# Pre infusion and extraction time



## ChrisKon

Hi all,

Just recently got my Mara X and playing around with it when I can..

Was just wondering what your thoughts are on pre-infusion and extraction times? Do you start timing from when you pull the lever up or from when you see first drop?

Also, because of pre infusions, do you up the time of when you reach your desired weight output?

Thanks in advance

Chris


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## Mrboots2u

ChrisKon said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Just recently got my Mara X and playing around with it when I can..
> 
> Was just wondering what your thoughts are on pre-infusion and extraction times? Do you start timing from when you pull the lever up or from when you see first drop?
> 
> Also, because of pre infusions, do you up the time of when you reach your desired weight output?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Chris


 Pimp on start timing , don't stop or judge a shot by time , don't get tied down to a narrow arbiarty span of time someone says a shot should take


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## ChrisKon

Mrboots2u said:


> Pimp on start timing , don't stop or judge a shot by time , don't get tied down to a narrow arbiarty span of time someone says a shot should take


 Of course, and I get that it's very personal as we all have different tastes which is the most important thing here.

To my understanding so far (and correct me if I'm wrong), time is an indicator of what variables to change to get the taste you want out of the bean. I would have thought that there are ball park formulas to start with to then work towards my desired outcome of the bean.


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## Mrboots2u

ChrisKon said:


> Of course, and I get that it's very personal as we all have different tastes which is the most important thing here.
> 
> To my understanding so far (and correct me if I'm wrong), time is an indicator of what variables to change to get the taste you want out of the bean. I would have thought that there are ball park formulas to start with to then work towards my desired outcome of the bean.


 No taste is the indicator of what to change , don't change a shot based on time , change it on what you want to balance

stronger shot , less water , weaker shot more water in the puck

Go sweet sweeter , grind fine or increase brew ratio .

You can get a Weak, sweet shot in 20 seconds with certain grinders and coffee , so time tells you nothing on its own .


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## cuprajake

Think the only time when time becomes an indicator is if you either get 40g out in 5 seconds or nothing in 50second


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## ChrisKon

Mrboots2u said:


> No taste is the indicator of what to change , don't change a shot based on time , change it on what you want to balance
> 
> stronger shot , less water , weaker shot more water in the puck
> 
> Go sweet sweeter , grind fine or increase brew ratio .
> 
> You can get a Weak, sweet shot in 20 seconds with certain grinders and coffee , so time tells you nothing on its own .


 Thank you, this is interesting. I will use this as a rough guide and see what I can conjure up


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## Doram

ChrisKon said:


> Was just wondering what your thoughts are on pre-infusion and extraction times? Do you start timing from when you pull the lever up or from when you see first drop?


 Agree with all that was said above, but noticed that no one actually answered your question: Start timing when you lift the lever, not when you see first drops. (then you can ignore the time as everyone said. ).

Now that no one is listening: normal, average shots on Mara X tend to be in the 35-40 seconds range from lifting the lever. Yes, you can get good shots outside this window, of course, but it is helpful to know these numbers when you don't have experience and you are just starting out with a new machine.


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## ChrisKon

Doram said:


> Agree with all that was said above, but noticed that no one actually answered your question: Start timing when you lift the lever, not when you see first drops. (then you can ignore the time as everyone said. ).
> 
> Now that no one is listening: normal, average shots on Mara X tend to be in the 35-40 seconds range from lifting the lever. Yes, you can get good shots outside this window, of course, but it is helpful to know these numbers when you don't have experience and you are just starting out with a new machine.


 Ah nice one Doram, the guidance I was looking for.

Thank you for your reply and actually answering my queries, really helpful.


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## cuprajake

The first reply actually says

Pimp on start timing

Which is what most do

Yanks seem to time from first drip, but thats no good really

Hx/e61 machines have a slow rise to pressure, not a propper lre infusion.


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## Rhys

How do you define pre-infusion? Line or boiler pressure onto the puck until it starts to show, dumping some water onto the puck with no pressure so it soaks in whatever time it takes, or a gradual increase in flow until it starts to show?

Mine does flow so it's a very gradual flow increase at 9 bar. after 17 seconds the pressure starts to rise due to puck resistance until it shows 9 bar. usually first drips are around 25 seconds, then when full pressure is introduced with no flow restriction I'll start timing. 18g into 26g is roughly 28 to 30 odd seconds then. Although taste is more important so that can be less of more (usually a bit less)


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## Mrboots2u

Cuprajake said:


> The first reply actually says
> 
> Pimp on start timing
> 
> Which is what most do
> 
> Yanks seem to time from first drip, but thats no good really
> 
> Hx/e61 machines have a slow rise to pressure, not a propper lre infusion.


 Whats pre infusion then?


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## cuprajake

id class pre infusion as something the user can control, ie not just the natural curve of a pump pressing up, but a flow control kit etc.

the first time i posted a video on here where i lifted the lever half way to wet the puck i got ripped a new one, cant win with this forum,


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## MWJB

By the time you see drips, your puck is full of coffee, not water. Probably a similar weight to the puck itself. To get that into the cup, you push more water into the puck to displace the coffee held therein. So if your shot is 1:2 ratio, it is 33% completed at first drip (more for short ratio, less for longer)....this doesn't sound like pre anything to me, sounds like you're well underway & have not counted that portion of the shot if not timing from pump on.


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## MWJB

Cuprajake said:


> id class pre infusion as something the user can control, ie not just the natural curve of a pump pressing up, but a flow control kit etc.
> 
> the first time i posted a video on here where i lifted the lever half way to wet the puck i got ripped a new one, cant win with this forum,


 You can have preset/fixed pre infusion.

You always win when the coffee is tasty.


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## Mrboots2u

Cuprajake said:


> id class pre infusion as something the user can control, ie not just the natural curve of a pump pressing up, but a flow control kit etc.
> 
> the first time i posted a video on here where i lifted the lever half way to wet the puck i got ripped a new one, cant win with this forum,


 SO that means nearly all the commercial machines don't have pre infusion by that definition ( eagle 1 , Linnea commercial, Kees machines , only levers and the flow control kits have pre infusion >

Have a look here for how an e61 works and more thoughts on what pre infusion is

https://perfectdailygrind.com/2017/04/espresso-making-skills-whats-pre-infusion/


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## cuprajake

yeah,

id seen most of that when i first got my e61

when i first started using it i posted this thread

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/53044-up-dosing-wet-pucks-or-just-need-a-service/?do=embed

got told it wasn't a thing,

perhaps im thinking more along the lines of profiling rather than a pre infusuion, but say an e61 with a rotary pump, wouldn't work the same as with a vibe pump would it??


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