# Sticky  Londinium LR24



## iroko

Has anyone on the forum picked one up yet, and if so what are your thoughts.

Also can you still change the PI manually like the LR or is it only adjustable through Wi Fi now ?


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## coffeechap

Hey up ! @iroko I have one, love it really quiet excellent adjustability and yes you can still adjust the preinfusion manually. Happy for you to come over and have a go if you want.


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## Marocchino

coffeechap said:


> I have one, love it really quiet excellent adjustability and yes you can still adjust the preinfusion manually.


 Is it too soon to ask you your thoughts on the merits of this version over the LR?


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## lhavelund

Marocchino said:


> Is it too soon to ask you your thoughts on the merits of this version over the LR?


 From someone who has only used the LR (at the lever meet!), I love how quiet the LR24 is.


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## mctrials23

Would love the LR to be quieter on the pump but its a hell of a lot of extra money over the old LR for the sake of a bit of noise.


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## Marocchino

lhavelund said:


> From someone who has only used the LR (at the lever meet!), I love how quiet the LR24 is.


 Thanks for the video link and your thoughts.


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## Marocchino

mctrials23 said:


> Would love the LR to be quieter on the pump but its a hell of a lot of extra money over the old LR for the sake of a bit of noise.


 .... and the original LR is no longer available. As a new owner to the LR, the sound of the pump and the clacking of the pstat doesn't seem to bother me so far. It would be interesting to know what potential developmental avenues are open with this new low voltage control architecture. I understand that the 24v pump doesn't suffer from a loss of prime -a definite advantage over the 240v pump.


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## iroko

@coffeechap Very kind offer, unlikely I will be your way any time soon, but if I am I'll be happy to take up your offer.

Compared to the LR are the new internals a big leap forwards in the 24. I like the quietness of the new pump but not so much the new price when the vat is added on.

What advantage's does the 24 have over the LR, I suppose I'm just trying to justify the extra cost before I do anything.

Thanks.


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## coffeechap

iroko said:


> @coffeechap Very kind offer, unlikely I will be your way any time soon, but if I am I'll be happy to take up your offer.
> 
> Compared to the LR are the new internals a big leap forwards in the 24. I like the quietness of the new pump but not so much the new price when the vat is added on.
> 
> What advantage's does the 24 have over the LR, I suppose I'm just trying to justify the extra cost before I do anything.
> 
> Thanks.


 The key differences are the interface on the app, you have more functions on the LR24 than the LR ( LR users are locked out of certain stuff like the on off time function) the internals are different with the 24v system but not that different in terms of function. The pump is much better on this machine and is very quiet. Any future upgrades will now be based on the 24v system so no chance to upgrade if you have the LR.

TBH both machines are awesome one is just a bit more so than the other. Genuinely happy for you to come and view mine if you get the chance


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## DrH

For the LR owners here, what has your experience been with darker roasts? I want to experiment with all roast types by my usuals are dark and I'm worried that the LR will overextract them?

In general, how does the londinium compare to the Izzo Leva in body, mouthfeel abs taste?

Any thoughts are much appreciated.


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## 9719

@coffeechap will be able to give advice when he pick's this up


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## coffeechap

DrH said:


> For the LR owners here, what has your experience been with darker roasts? I want to experiment with all roast types by my usuals are dark and I'm worried that the LR will overextract them?
> 
> In general, how does the londinium compare to the Izzo Leva in body, mouthfeel abs taste?
> 
> Any thoughts are much appreciated.


 they beauty with the LR is that you can get it to react just like the izzo, in that if you dial preinfusion down to 1.5 bar it will get great results from darker roasted coffee. It's the flexibility to be able to get the very best out of all roast levels which makes the LR shine. Plenty of other LR owners that could chime in as well


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## Power Freak

DrH said:


> For the LR owners here, what has your experience been with darker roasts? I want to experiment with all roast types by my usuals are dark and I'm worried that the LR will overextract them?
> 
> In general, how does the londinium compare to the Izzo Leva in body, mouthfeel abs taste?
> 
> Any thoughts are much appreciated.


 Not used the Izzo so can't comment.

I typically run light filter roasts as espresso and the LR works great for that (PI pressure > 5.0 typically). But I also run decaf which can be very dark and oily and tend to find myself in the lower range (PI < 2.0). It's quite easy to dial in as you only have 1 variable (on the machine) to play with and it's usually pretty obvious where to move it to for the results you want.


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## DrH

coffeechap said:


> they beauty with the LR is that you can get it to react just like the izzo, in that if you dial preinfusion down to 1.5 bar it will get great results from darker roasted coffee. It's the flexibility to be able to get the very best out of all roast levels which makes the LR shine. Plenty of other LR owners that could chime in as well


 I agree at least from the point of view of preinfusion pressure. On the Izzo there is also a PID so you could also reduce the boiler temperature for dark roasts which may be an advantage.


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## coffeechap

DrH said:


> I agree at least from the point of view of preinfusion pressure. On the Izzo there is also a PID so you could also reduce the boiler temperature for dark roasts which may be an advantage.


 You can reduce the boiler temperature on any of the lever machines via either a PID or the pressure stat. This doesn't necessarily equate to a reduction in the temp at the puck as what you have to remember is the group acts as a heat sink, effectively reducing the temperature from the boiler (which will be way to hot, especially in a dipper design) to the right temperature for the shot. A small reduction in temp in the boiler will have almost no effect at the puck.


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## MoodyMark

Hello, Long term reader but my first post. I am getting ready to buy a Londinium R24 but wondering if anyone knows if it is available without the etched logo on the front. Have emailed the company on Wednesday but haven't yet recieved a response so thought I would ask here while waiting. Thanks Mark


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## MoodyMark

For the benefit of others searching, I don't believe you can get a londinium without their engraved logo on the front. No comments here and I have sent two emails over the last week and a half with no response. Aware it is a one man company so could be on holidays, or in their spam bin, either way no answer. I didn't actually mention why I didn't want the logo, the fact I find it very conceited of a manufacturer to capitalise their name but put our countries name in lower case (even though some designer may think it is on trend, it is plain disrespectful), so that probably isn't the reason. Writing this I wonder if they are just not willing to sell a machine sans logo? Either way looks like I will miss out on a fine machine.


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## MildredM

MoodyMark said:


> For the benefit of others searching, I don't believe you can get a londinium without their engraved logo on the front. No comments here and I have sent two emails over the last week and a half with no response. Aware it is a one man company so could be on holidays, or in their spam bin, either way no answer. I didn't actually mention why I didn't want the logo, the fact I find it very conceited of a manufacturer to capitalise their name but put our countries name in lower case (even though some designer may think it is on trend, it is plain disrespectful), so that probably isn't the reason. Writing this I wonder if they are just not willing to sell a machine sans logo? Either way looks like I will miss out on a fine machine.


 Looking at it with a 'design eye' it could be simply the maker's interpretation of his logo - I am sure it doesn't mean anything, in fact I know he is proud to say they are made in England. Also, from an embroidery point of view (!) 15 letters made the same size as a word with 9 is going to fill a lot of space. Just my thoughts


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## coffeechap

MoodyMark said:


> For the benefit of others searching, I don't believe you can get a londinium without their engraved logo on the front. No comments here and I have sent two emails over the last week and a half with no response. Aware it is a one man company so could be on holidays, or in their spam bin, either way no answer. I didn't actually mention why I didn't want the logo, the fact I find it very conceited of a manufacturer to capitalise their name but put our countries name in lower case (even though some designer may think it is on trend, it is plain disrespectful), so that probably isn't the reason. Writing this I wonder if they are just not willing to sell a machine sans logo? Either way looks like I will miss out on a fine machine.


 The short answer is I don't think Reiss will sell a machine without Branding on it as it compromises his brand value. Quite sure you would struggle to find any manufacturer that would be happy with removing their brand logo from their product.


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## 4085

@MoodyMark Since when has the UK been called Londinium? The earliest meaning was Roman London matey


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## Mrboots2u

MoodyMark said:


> For the benefit of others searching, I don't believe you can get a londinium without their engraved logo on the front. No comments here and I have sent two emails over the last week and a half with no response. Aware it is a one man company so could be on holidays, or in their spam bin, either way no answer. I didn't actually mention why I didn't want the logo, the fact I find it very conceited of a manufacturer to capitalise their name but put our countries name in lower case (even though some designer may think it is on trend, it is plain disrespectful), so that probably isn't the reason. Writing this I wonder if they are just not willing to sell a machine sans logo? Either way looks like I will miss out on a fine machine.


 Ive seen a lot of reasons why one person will or wont buy a machine in my time but not using a capital E for England is certainly a new one.

The world gets weirder every day.


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## Fez

MoodyMark said:


> For the benefit of others searching, I don't believe you can get a londinium without their engraved logo on the front. No comments here and I have sent two emails over the last week and a half with no response. Aware it is a one man company so could be on holidays, or in their spam bin, either way no answer. I didn't actually mention why I didn't want the logo, the fact I find it very conceited of a manufacturer to capitalise their name but put our countries name in lower case (even though some designer may think it is on trend, it is plain disrespectful), so that probably isn't the reason. Writing this I wonder if they are just not willing to sell a machine sans logo? Either way looks like I will miss out on a fine machine.


 Wow Mark, you really are moody 🤣


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## MoodyMark

Mildred, thank you for designers opinion and can see your thoughts. Still would be more comfortable if all was lower case, or both his company and our country was capatilised.

Coffechap, thank you very much, I think you have solved my problem. I have no objection to his brand, just the disrespecting of our country. I will email and ask if I can just have Londinium on it, nothing more. Hopefully that gets a reply.

DFK41, I for one Don't Fn Know what you mean?

Mr Boots, you are right, it is a personal reason. My wife and I are from military families, I have lost a brother in law I liked to a war which wasn't ours while he was proudly representing the UK. I don't expect those who haven't served to understand the same respect for their country or ability to give themselves to something bigger. Or the expectation others respect their country. This logo by its capitilisation choice implies the brand is more important than our country.

Above said I can see the other side. The owner is not a citizen of the UK and just makes his goods here. As Coffeechap said, he worries about his brand value not respecting our country, the reason his brand is capitilised and our country isn't. I do note that through his website and facebook page every single mention of his country, New Zealand is capitilised, so he does respect some countries, just not ours. I also notice Niche capitilise China whenever mentioned, why doesn't Londinium capitilise us?

Fez, yes.


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## The Systemic Kid

'England' is a proper noun so should not be written 'england' - surprising as Reiss is a stickler for grammar. He once wrote a piece way back on the redundancy of using definite articles - I am not kidding - when referring to 'the' Londinium as opposed to just Londinium. Guess he went for lower case England for style rather than grammar.

Your request for having a Londinium without the wording is likely to fall on deaf ears IMO and is reminiscent of Henry Ford's answer to whether he would offer a choice of colours for his Model T Ford. His reply, 'customer can have any colour they like so long as it's black'. Ford's choice of black was based solely on it being the fastest drying paint at the time.


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## aaronb

Reiss was a resident of the UK for many years.

Long ago they removed most customisation options to streamline, I suspect that plays a big part.

I agree with the above that nobody is going to sell their machine without their logo though.


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## MildredM

I honestly think it is a (thoughtless to some, irritating to someone who is keen to have things right, not bothered to others - and each to their own, of course!) style thing. I don't think Reiss has any sinister reasoning behind the design. There's a modern trend to make a logo lowercase going on (ebay, amazon etc) maybe ill advised . . .


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## RobW

@MoodyMark I never noticed the lack of capitalisation before. Now this annoys me, not on grounds of patriotism but grammatical accuracy - aaargh!

The quickest way to get hold of Reiss is when he is active via the live chat feature on his website.

Surely if you feel this strongly about it you should not buy the product - just having one that does not have the logo on should not diminish the slight in your eyes no?


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## Fez

RobW said:


> @MoodyMark
> 
> Surely if you feel this strongly about it you should not buy the product - just having one that does not have the logo on should not diminish the slight in your eyes no?


 I agree. If its so insulting to you, then even without the logo you shouldn't be buying one as everyone else has one with the logo.

I understand, you are patriotic, proudly British. But it's just a logo, it's clearly a design element. I'm sure Reiss isn't sitting at home laughing his head off thinking Londinium is more important than england 😂


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## Northern_Monkey

I think I will be using this as my best example of 1st world problems that I have ever come across! 😂


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## MoodyMark

Systematic Kid thanks for your words and more background on Reiss. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and agree with you all. Knowing Reiss is enthusiastic about correct grammar he would be totally aware England is a noun and a country and as such should be capitilised. He chose not too and obviously knows his market and most don't care. Mildred if everything was lowercase I would accept it as design element, because the brand isn't I can't. I agree this isn't the company for me, I have read the man from new zealand can be scratchy, so I am probably not his perfect client either, probably the reason for no reply. Thank you everyone.

PS Northern Monkey, what a great country we live in, where we can safely sit (me still with all my limbs) and pontificate over first world problems. I will remember to thank someone presently working on the last Saturday in June that I can be a w*nker over spelling my countries name correctly.


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## Jony

Early morning read is good.


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## mctrials23

Reiss is super helpful and responds very quickly to any issues you might have but I wouldn't say he is necessarily a people person. Thats not a bad thing but he can come across as a little cold.


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## Mrboots2u

MoodyMark said:


> Mildred, thank you for designers opinion and can see your thoughts. Still would be more comfortable if all was lower case, or both his company and our country was capatilised.
> 
> Coffechap, thank you very much, I think you have solved my problem. I have no objection to his brand, just the disrespecting of our country. I will email and ask if I can just have Londinium on it, nothing more. Hopefully that gets a reply.
> 
> DFK41, I for one Don't Fn Know what you mean?
> 
> Mr Boots, you are right, it is a personal reason. My wife and I are from military families, I have lost a brother in law I liked to a war which wasn't ours while he was proudly representing the UK. I don't expect those who haven't served to understand the same respect for their country or ability to give themselves to something bigger. Or the expectation others respect their country. This logo by its capitilisation choice implies the brand is more important than our country.
> 
> Above said I can see the other side. The owner is not a citizen of the UK and just makes his goods here. As Coffeechap said, he worries about his brand value not respecting our country, the reason his brand is capitilised and our country isn't. I do note that through his website and facebook page every single mention of his country, New Zealand is capitilised, so he does respect some countries, just not ours. I also notice Niche capitilise China whenever mentioned, why doesn't Londinium capitilise us?
> 
> Fez, yes.


 Wrong place to get your question answered . And I feel we have moved from a question of can I get a machine manufactured the way I want to some obscure discussion on pride and respect for our country . 
good luck finding a machine that fits your criteria , you won't find an answer to your last question here ( we are a coffee forum )


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## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> @MoodyMark Since when has the UK been called Londinium? The earliest meaning was Roman London matey


 Indeed. The Roman link between the name & case characters looks like the most logical explanation for this choice.


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## Mister_Tad

If you feel the Londinium machines don't respect England, what are the alternatives? A German Profitec or Italian Bosco if you're set on lever?

I assume you're not cross-shopping with a Fracino-branded machine, and as far as I'm aware you're out of luck when it comes to supporting England otherwise.

I've always thought "made in x" displayed prominently on any product was a point of national pride - England or otherwise. Capitalized or otherwise.


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## KTD

Tapatalk back working just in time to read this, LOL. Looking forward to seeing if the capital E would make a difference in the cup.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MartinR

Has anyone compared the taste of coffee with LR24, Profitec 800 or Bosco?

Wysłane z mojego SM-N950F przy użyciu Tapatalka


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## coffeechap

MartinR said:


> Has anyone compared the taste of coffee with LR24, Profitec 800 or Bosco?
> 
> Wysłane z mojego SM-N950F przy użyciu Tapatalka


 No but compared it to an original L1 and quickmill veloce


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## MartinR

@coffeechap which machine make better espresso?

Wysłane z mojego SM-N950F przy użyciu Tapatalka


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## coffeechap

MartinR said:


> @coffeechap which machine make better espresso?
> 
> Wysłane z mojego SM-N950F przy użyciu Tapatalka


 It all depends what roast levels you enjoy, for all roast levels the LR24 is hands down the best machine of the bunch, if your preference is towards the darker stuff then you reall won't be doing that machine justice, as the other two would be fine, I have also owned a Bosco for a couple of years which is a one group commercial machine with a larger boiler (6litres) it did well with darker roasts as well but just wasn't there for me on lighter stuff.


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## MartinR

@coffeecgap thank you for information.
I must looking for used LR or to but new LR24/LC.

Wysłane z mojego SM-N950F przy użyciu Tapatalka


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## eltakeiteasy

Hey all, new here but I thought I would share my workflow on the LR24. So far I am extremely impressed by and really enjoying the machine. I have not seen many video so I thought I would post here so everyone can see:


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## MildredM

Hello @eltakeiteasy and welcome to the forum - loved seeing your vid 😁 ☕😃


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## The Systemic Kid

Impressive first post and welcome


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## Marocchino

eltakeiteasy said:


> Hey all, new here but I thought I would share my workflow on the LR24.


 Welcome - Enjoyed your video.


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## Blue_Cafe

Nice watch...


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## Mrboots2u

Nice video , where is the cup from too.


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## Jollybean

Thanks. It is quiet compared to an LR isn't it. Great video 👍


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## eltakeiteasy

MildredM said:


> Hello @eltakeiteasy and welcome to the forum - loved seeing your vid 😁 ☕😃


 Thanks for the warm welcome!



The Systemic Kid said:


> Impressive first post and welcome


 Thanks!



Marocchino said:


> Welcome - Enjoyed your video.


 Thanks, I am glad the video was of some use 



Blue_Cafe said:


> Nice watch...


 ⚡💪⚡ nice eye!



Mrboots2u said:


> Nice video , where is the cup from too.


 Thanks, the cup is from a local shop that I like here: https://www.coffeeandteacollective.com/collections/merch



Jollybean said:


> Thanks. It is quiet compared to an LR isn't it. Great video 👍


 My wife asked me when it was going to 'turn on' LOL. I am loving this machine very impressed so far!


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## eltakeiteasy




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## Sean ASA

Hi, does the R24 have a a PID or Pressure stat. My question is in regard to noise rather then Temperature function. The ability to set a middle of the night start up via the App appeals. My alarm is set for 5 am, so having the machine wake/warm up from 4 am is a great function. However a couple of my children pets are in the same room, if the PS makes a noise, we're all be woken. The cost of this machine has moved to be quite substantial in the UK. (the exchange rate might help others). And it's marketed as top end home use, so it needs to be completely home friendly or I'll get it in the neck!. Cheers Sean


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## Mrboots2u

Sean ASA said:


> Hi, does the R24 have a a PID or Pressure stat. My question is in regard to noise rather then Temperature function. The ability to set a middle of the night start up via the App appeals. My alarm is set for 5 am, so having the machine wake/warm up from 4 am is a great function. However a couple of my children pets are in the same room, if the PS makes a noise, we're all be woken. The cost of this machine has moved to be quite substantial in the UK. (the exchange rate might help others). And it's marketed as top end home use, so it needs to be completely home friendly or I'll get it in the neck!. Cheers Sean


 Not sure any coffee machine is silent tbh..the boiler heating up will make some noise


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## lune

Sean ASA said:


> Hi, does the R24 have a a PID or Pressure stat. My question is in regard to noise rather then Temperature function. The ability to set a middle of the night start up via the App appeals. My alarm is set for 5 am, so having the machine wake/warm up from 4 am is a great function. However a couple of my children pets are in the same room, if the PS makes a noise, we're all be woken. The cost of this machine has moved to be quite substantial in the UK. (the exchange rate might help others). And it's marketed as top end home use, so it needs to be completely home friendly or I'll get it in the neck!. Cheers Sean


 It has a P Stat, therefore makes the traditional occasional clicking.

I have my R24 warming up an hour before waking and can't say it disturbs me. Doesn't bother my mega alert Border Collie either!


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## Sean ASA

lune said:


> It has a P Stat, therefore makes the traditional occasional clicking.
> 
> I have my R24 warming up an hour before waking and can't say it disturbs me. Doesn't bother my mega alert Border Collie either!


 I've only owned a PID machine so my experience of P Stat is taken from others comments regarding it. Good to know it's not disturbing the Collie, though I imagine same volume Click from the fringe would!.


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## lune

Sean ASA said:


> I've only owned a PID machine so my experience of P Stat is taken from others comments regarding it. Good to know it's not disturbing the Collie, though I imagine same volume Click from the fringe would!.


 Ha, yeah he can certianly distinguish his clicks!


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## RobW

lune said:


> It has a P Stat, therefore makes the traditional occasional clicking.
> 
> I have my R24 warming up an hour before waking and can't say it disturbs me. Doesn't bother my mega alert Border Collie either!


 You must live in a mansion then 😀. In our modest two bedroom terrace I quite often get woken by the clicking of the pstat. It is the one irritating thing about the LR. I just about manage to tune it out during the day but in the quiet of the morning it is quite loud all the way from downstairs in the kitchen to our bedroom.

If Reiss ever does a new version with the same pressure transducer as the preinfusion he can take my money!


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## lune

RobW said:


> You must live in a mansion then 😀. In our modest two bedroom terrace I quite often get woken by the clicking of the pstat. It is the one irritating thing about the LR. I just about manage to tune it out during the day but in the quiet of the morning it is quite loud all the way from downstairs in the kitchen to our bedroom.
> 
> If Reiss ever does a new version with the same pressure transducer as the preinfusion he can take my money!


 Haha, it's definitely no mansion! I suppose it's people's varying sensitivity to the clicking... I could be conditioned to the noise from my Cherub and just find it nice not to have the vibe pump blaring first thing!

I suppose we can say there's definitely a notable noise, it's just whether it annoys/disturbs.


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## eltakeiteasy

Sean ASA said:


> Hi, does the R24 have a a PID or Pressure stat. My question is in regard to noise rather then Temperature function. The ability to set a middle of the night start up via the App appeals. My alarm is set for 5 am, so having the machine wake/warm up from 4 am is a great function. However a couple of my children pets are in the same room, if the PS makes a noise, we're all be woken. The cost of this machine has moved to be quite substantial in the UK. (the exchange rate might help others). And it's marketed as top end home use, so it needs to be completely home friendly or I'll get it in the neck!. Cheers Sean


 The R24 uses Pstat; no need for PID on a HX. I have my machine set to turn on at 3am and my wife and baby have no issues with the sound.


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## Benjamin8732

An interesting update from Londinium regarding the Pstat, the R24 is no longer shipping with the Sirai pressure switch and it has been replaced with thermistor which eliminates the clicking sound.

This is also available as an upgrade to existing machines but not sure it is worth the cost (unless you are sensitive to the noise) as it makes no difference in the cup.

https://londiniumespresso.com/blog/news/3433/all-of-our-current-product-range-is-now-in-its-final-form


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## 4085

@Benjamin8732 Just to double check, this replaces the information previously on the blog, where he extolls the boiler pressure stat for controlling temp?

Scroll down to, 'Why choose a Londinium?'

https://londiniumespresso.com/blog?start=40

*

*


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## Marocchino

Benjamin8732 said:


> An interesting update from Londinium regarding the Pstat, the R24 is no longer shipping with the Sirai pressure switch and it has been replaced with thermistor which eliminates the clicking sound.
> 
> This is also available as an upgrade to existing machines but not sure it is worth the cost (unless you are sensitive to the noise) as it makes no difference in the cup.
> 
> https://londiniumespresso.com/blog/news/3433/all-of-our-current-product-range-is-now-in-its-final-form


 Wouldn't dream to second guess the rationale behind the modification. I imagine he's taking advantage of the low voltage power supply the LR 24 has built into it. Thermistors have been around for many years, I certainly remember building with them in college 40 years ago. At that time they generally tended to operate at a lower DC voltage. The lower voltage power pack on the LR24 I imagine may offer a platform to develop further tweaks or enhancements.


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## 4085

@Marocchino It is amazing that the original L1 that had no bells and whistles has slowly developed into a machine that bears little resemblance to the current LR24.....wonder if it still qualifies for the term 'traditional lever machine!"


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## Marocchino

dfk41 said:


> @Marocchino It is amazing that the original L1 that had no bells and whistles has slowly developed into a machine that bears little resemblance to the current LR24.....wonder if it still qualifies for the term 'traditional lever machine!"


 Not for me to justify for or against a manufacturers claims let alone argue against their product development. Been around long enough and got many faded T shirts on that subject.

I'm happy it's still made in Britain and wish more stuff was.


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## Benjamin8732

dfk41 said:


> @Benjamin8732 Just to double check, this replaces the information previously on the blog, where he extolls the boiler pressure stat for controlling temp?
> 
> Scroll down to, 'Why choose a Londinium?'
> 
> https://londiniumespresso.com/blog?start=40
> 
> *
> 
> *


 I had a look and I can't see specifically in that blog post how that is inferred?

Anyway, based on my understanding the Pstat on the R24 controls the boiler pressure not the temperature. The Thermistor is being used in place of the Pstat to control boiler pressure.

I am sure someone with more technical expertise than me can chime in if this is not correct.

My understanding is that this is not a fundamental change to the design of the R24 and it was to eliminate the noise that is associated with a Pstat as some people find it annoying.


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## Marocchino

Benjamin8732 said:


> The Thermistor is being used in place of the Pstat to control boiler pressure.


 Think of a thermistor as a device that changes electrical resistance dependant upon the temperature it is subjected to. That change in electrical resistance may be employed to do something useful like trigger a circuit that switches a boiler heater on or off. Thermistors do not measure pressure. However pressure maybe inferred from temperature, there is a proportional relationship between the two. I guess these days thermistors must be pretty accurate devices.


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## Benjamin8732

Marocchino said:


> Think of a thermistor as a device that changes electrical resistance dependant upon the temperature it is subjected to. That change in electrical resistance may be employed to do something useful like trigger a circuit that switches a boiler heater on or off. Thermistors do not measure pressure. However pressure maybe inferred from temperature, there is a proportional relationship between the two. I guess these days thermistors must be pretty accurate devices.


 Thanks @Marocchino for clarifying, that is interesting! So I guess maybe Londinium is using temperature to infer pressure in the boiler and switch the heating element on and off.


----------



## Marocchino

Benjamin8732 said:


> So I guess maybe Londinium is using temperature to infer pressure in the boiler


 Yes



Benjamin8732 said:


> and release pressure if needed?


 Don't believe that's right a p'stat doesn't work that way.


----------



## Benjamin8732

Marocchino said:


> Yes
> 
> Don't believe that's right a p'stat doesn't work that way.


 Sorry, I obviously wasn't thinking when I wrote that! I meant the Pstat basically switch's the heating element on and off.


----------



## DavecUK

*Good news for potential LR24 owners*

I was surfing the web today and noticed something that will doubtless be of interest to potential LR24 owners. There appears to have been a significant price drop. The specifications page for the LR24 shows the old price. It looks like nows the time to purchase an LR24, if you had your heart set on one. I have no idea why the price has dropped?

View attachment 58169


*The specs had the old price on. Then I went to the specific machine page and saw the price has been reduced massively. It used to be £3696 (3080+VAT) now down to £3360 (2800 + VAT). That's quite a saving, especially there was talk of an across the board price rise of 5% last Feb*

















I tried the shopping cart function and it definitely isn't an error.


----------



## Marocchino

Good news indeed for all prospective purchasers.


----------



## DavecUK

Marocchino said:


> Good news indeed for all prospective purchasers.


 It is...not so good for anyone who bought one recently..but that's just bad luck.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Feels to me they were and still are overpriced. But is a supply and demand economy in a capitalist world. So, if someone is happy to pay for it, then there's demand. It feels counter intuitive for the price to be coming down, unless they are not selling that well.


----------



## 4085

It does make one wonder, where the price drop has come from though? If Londinium are cutting their margins, then how long can they keep it up? Is it temporary. Will the cuts also apply to the Vectis when and IF it launches. Apparently only 13 days to go until we see if the latest rumours strikes true. October 2017 the rumours started.......Vesuvius Evo Leva, rumours started October 2020, delivered June 2021......


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Feels to me they were and still are overpriced. But is a supply and demand economy in a capitalist world. So, if someone is happy to pay for it, then there's demand. It feels counter intuitive for the price to be coming down, unless they are not selling that well.


 It might simply be the effect of more/new competition in the market....

I agree, they still seem to hold quite a price premium and I'm not sure it's justified, considering the quite limited technology.


----------



## 4085

DavecUK said:


> It might simply be the effect of more/new competition in the market....


 I had not thought of that! Good point @DavecUK


----------



## DavecUK

dfk41 said:


> I had not thought of that! Good point @DavecUK


 I just figured Reiss must be aware of the Vesuvius Evo Lever, probably read how well it's being received and instead of the 5% price rise he was going to impose, decided it was more prudent to cut the price of the LR24 model. It was priced much higher than the Vesuvius Evo, has a very limited feature set in comparison, with what looks cheaper build cost.. Now it's only about £900 more.

The LR24 had no real competition until now...and so far, competition is proving to be good for consumers, by bringing prices down.


----------



## Stevebee

Still surprised though as, during Covid, sales of all things coffee and especially machines, have shown massively increased sales. Maybe, they missed out a bit due to price.


----------



## 4085

Well, whatever the 'maths' I guess we will have wait and see what transpires over the next few months. Someone said to me, "It is like driving down the M1 in a car, without a speedo, rev counter, oil or water pressure gauge.....you have to guess at everything........then you get into a car that has all of these un-needed accessories......."


----------



## GrahamSPhillips

FWIW all this Lever talk has spiked my interest. I really can't justify a new machine on top of the Vesuvius which I'm still struggling to tame.. but I could be tempted with a nice second-and lever. Anyway, I've emailed Londinium several times. Zero response. I have absolutely no axe to grind but that's no way to run a business! Whereas I've learnt so much from everyone here.. for which big thanks!


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## 4085

@GrahamSPhillips You would have thought with a bit of competition on the horizon, the allegedly fantastic levels of service would rise to the challenge a bit more


----------



## DavecUK

GrahamSPhillips said:


> FWIW all this Lever talk has spiked my interest. I really can't justify a new machine on top of the Vesuvius which I'm still struggling to tame.. but I could be tempted with a nice second-and lever. Anyway, I've emailed Londinium several times. Zero response. I have absolutely no axe to grind but that's no way to run a business! Whereas I've learnt so much from everyone here.. for which big thanks!


 You know the answer...sell the V and put the money towards and Evo, you know it makes sense


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## cuprajake

Every one can crank on londinium but most of you have owned them and at the time highly sung their praises....

Like anything in life stuff changes. The first londinium was designed in a way and as stuff progressed so did the design

As people want to tinker then new machines come out

Yeah its nice to know the group pressure. But if you cant change it whats it matter?

Like wise with temp

I know from my londinium experience is that what i make is repeatable dsy in day out and its literally grind tamp pull drink

If i wanted to prat with every aspect of coffee then i buy a decent.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips

DavecUK said:


> You know the answer...sell the V and put the money towards and Evo, you know it makes sense


 Honestly I could be tempted hence why I'd like to see the two side by side and do a taste test! We need a lever demo day - @Paolo_Cortese !!!


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## 4085

@Cuprajake are you sure you do not own a Decent?


----------



## cuprajake

GrahamSPhillips said:


> Honestly I could be tempted hence why I'd like to see the two side by side and do a taste test! We need a lever demo day - @Paolo_Cortese !!!


 How many machines do you have.


----------



## DavecUK

GrahamSPhillips said:


> Honestly I could be tempted hence why I'd like to see the two side by side and do a taste test! We need a lever demo day - @Paolo_Cortese !!!


 i'll host it, but people will have to bring their levers, I only have Frankenstien, I do have a few other machines of course.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips

Cuprajake said:


> How many machines do you have.


 Too many! Its been my lockdown project.. got to sell them all (bar the "V") before buy anything else!


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## GrahamSPhillips

@DavecUK I'll bring my Vesuvius (bravely risks hernia...)


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## DavecUK

GrahamSPhillips said:


> @DavecUK I'll bring my Vesuvius (bravely risks hernia...)


 I've already got one


----------



## DavecUK

Cuprajake said:


> As people want to tinker then new machines come out
> 
> 1. Yeah its nice to know the group pressure. But if you cant change it whats it matter?
> 
> 2. Like wise with temp


 two of the most important factors.

1. you can change group pressure, by retarding or advancing the lever and see exactly what pressure you have (not possible without a gauge). You also get feedback directly on the shot. Lastly, you no longer need scales to know the weight, once the coffee is dialled in. You can use the pressure.

2. You can change temp for a flat, falling or rising temperature profile. Knowing the temp allows you to return to the temperature that gave you the best shot, and then it's repeatable. It also tells you exactly when the machine is ready to pull shots (15m). You can also keep increasing the temp of the shot for lighter roasts, which you can't do on a normal lever.

It's not about fiddling with every setting under the sun, but more about having the *basic *information needed to get repeatable results and improved shots.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Cuprajake said:


> Every one can crank on londinium but most of you have owned them and at the time highly sung their praises....
> 
> Like anything in life stuff changes. The first londinium was designed in a way and as stuff progressed so did the design
> 
> Yeah its nice to know the group pressure. But if you cant change it whats it matter?
> 
> Like wise with temp


 Reiss did a great job with the original Londinium. Ability to pull endless back to back shots with no need to flush or cool the group. Thermosyphon design was simple yet clever. But it was devised for darker roasts - thermosyphon set to 93c. As I have said previously, if you like medium plus to dark roasts, Londinium I delivers the goods. Can remember the first shots I pulled with mine using Reiss's beans and a HG One were a revaluation.

But, as you say, Jake, 'stuff changes' and the drift to lighter roasts espresso poses challenges for the Londinium and particularly the single boiler design - particularly in relation to tweaking brew temp. Reiss's solution to generating higher brew temps is via higher PI pressure. But I am not sure hitting the puck with 6 bar is the way to go. And Reiss has shared his thinking that going above 4 bar doesn't offer much.

Evo offers a different approach. Having a dedicated boiler for espresso and separate group heaters is a game changer IMO. I think these two options will have far greater impact on getting the best out of lighter roasts than just increasing PI pressure which, of course, you can still do on the Evo.

which makes Introducing a rotary pump into the thermosyphon circuit provides the option for tweaking PI pressure


----------



## cuprajake

Yeah i agree to an extent. But like we said about the grinders when your dealing with these super light roasts and Messing with temps your at the fringes again.

I think both machines have their merits


----------



## 4085

`surely when dealing with super light roasts, the more arrows that you have in your quiver the better. other than pre infusion, I cannot think of anything on an LR24 that you can change. Therefore you are hoping that the effect this has on the shot is the most critical, yet the maximum effect is unto 6 bar, but it seems generally accepted that the maximum influence id between 0 to 4 bar. Compare this to the tweaks listed by @Davecuk on his excellent post

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/60698-acs-vesuvius-evo-leva-comparison-chart/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=848237&embedComment=848237&embedDo=findComment#comment-848237

and it becomes clear that the Evo quiver has many arrows to fire


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## cuprajake

Let me guess the leva is set up to a max of 4 bar???


----------



## 4085

@Cuprajake The gear pump selected for the Evo limits it to 4, but the point I was making is that although much has been made of the LR24 being able to go to 6 bar, it has been published in the Londinium blog, that they recommend the maximum to be 4.....not my words


----------



## Eiffel

And to be clear, the arrows in the quiver to handle variations in roast levels include, among other things, the ability to have dropping, flat or increasing *temperature profiles* through the shot within a *broad range of temperatures* *without impacting the service/steam boiler* capabilities, 'manual' *pressure profiling *(with immediate feedback on the brew group pressure gauge) and *pressures up to around 11 bars* during the shot


----------



## Benjamin8732

The Systemic Kid said:


> Reiss did a great job with the original Londinium. Ability to pull endless back to back shots with no need to flush or cool the group. Thermosyphon design was simple yet clever. But it was devised for darker roasts - thermosyphon set to 93c. As I have said previously, if you like medium plus to dark roasts, Londinium I delivers the goods. Can remember the first shots I pulled with mine using Reiss's beans and a HG One were a revaluation.
> 
> But, as you say, Jake, 'stuff changes' and the drift to lighter roasts espresso poses challenges for the Londinium and particularly the single boiler design - particularly in relation to tweaking brew temp. Reiss's solution to generating higher brew temps is via higher PI pressure. But I am not sure hitting the puck with 6 bar is the way to go. And Reiss has shared his thinking that going above 4 bar doesn't offer much.


 As you say they are different and both machines solve for lighter roasts in a different way but I think you will find there are plenty of R24/R owners that are happy with the results in the cup especially with lighter roasts.


----------



## Benjamin8732

Eiffel said:


> And to be clear, the arrows in the quiver to handle variations in roast levels include, among other things, the ability to have dropping, flat or increasing *temperature profiles* through the shot within a *broad range of temperatures* *without impacting the service/steam boiler* capabilities, 'manual' *pressure profiling *(with immediate feedback on the brew group pressure gauge) and *pressures up to around 11 bars* during the shot


 I think this is getting a bit off topic given the thread is about the Londinium R24. If you want to compare different lever machines perhaps you should start a new thread.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Benjamin8732 said:


> As you say they are different and both machines solve for lighter roasts in a different way but I think you will find there are plenty of R24/R owners that are happy with the results in the cup especially with lighter roasts.


 Agree. Me included. That said, It is accepted lighter roasts benefit from higher temp extraction. I formed the opinion more was possible than the LR's approach of using ever high PI pressure to get the best out of lighter roasts. Moreover, I am not aware there is any data showing how much brew temp increases as PI pressure is raised on the LR 24. The Evo Leva takes a different approach to the lighter roast higher extraction temp challenge through the use of a combination of PID adjustable group heaters and an independent PID controlled brew boiler which offers far more accuracy, IMO, and visual feedback via the digital readouts.

The LR and Evo Leva are very different machines technology-wise in the way they approach achieving optimum extraction. The elegant simplicity of the black box LR design is appealing especially for those who want the machine to get on with the business of producing excellent espresso. For those who want that and the ability to make fine adjustments to espresso brewing, the Evo Leva rises to the challenge.


----------



## DavecUK

The Systemic Kid said:


> Agree. Me included. That said, It is accepted lighter roasts benefit from higher temp extraction. I formed the opinion more was possible than the LR's approach of using ever high PI pressure to get the best out of lighter roasts. Moreover, I am not aware there is any data showing how much brew temp increases as PI pressure is raised on the LR 24.


 Back on topic, I have heard this mentioned a number of times and I really don't understand the physics of this.* Why on earth would a higher preinfusion pressure make any difference at all on the temperature of the water entering the group, or the loss of heat once in the group.*

I cannot for the life of me think of a scientific reason why brew temperature would increase....Brew temp on the Londinium would be purely down to the length of time it spends in the group and during the shot?

Perhaps someone is able to explain it...without just saying, because it does....


----------



## mathof

DavecUK said:


> Why on earth would a higher preinfusion pressure make any difference at all on the temperature of the water entering the group


 Reiss has said that this is due to higher pump pressure sending the brew water from the HX more quickly to the group, losing less heat along the way.


----------



## DavecUK

mathof said:


> Reiss has said that this is due to higher pump pressure sending the brew water from the HX more quickly to the group, losing less heat along the way.


 That makes absolutely no sense at all


----------



## mathof

I didn't say it does. I'm just quoting Reiss, from memory.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

I am neither an engineer nor a physicist. I will never understand this.

If I am pumping water with a lot of force (or what ever the name is 😊) into a pump (here the group), the rate of disturbance to the puck is higher. However, I thought one would require some gadgets or a mechanism that converts the higher pressure into electricity and hence more power in the group.

Sorry for the irrelevant rant guys ! 😊


----------



## DavecUK

mathof said:


> I didn't say it does. I'm just quoting Reiss, from memory.


 Please don't get me wrong...I'm not saying *you agree*, or that *you* don't make sense. Perfectly understood you were quoting Reiss, I have heard/seen such a quote before. The comment simply makes no sense, it's a comment more akin to magic.



> Reiss has said that this is due to higher pump pressure sending the brew water from the HX more quickly to the group, losing less heat along the way.


 Has anyone actually timed group fill rates (to see how different they are) and measured the differing temperatures due to different PI setting on the LR24, or has it been evidenced in some other way apart from belief?


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## 4085

@DavecUK All I can say, is that goodness I have the technical understanding of a chlorinated chicken


----------



## DavecUK

to get back to the original question though...does anyone actually know *why Reiss dropped the price of their flagship, the Londinium LR24?*

*p.s. *will it affect used prices of Londiniums?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> to get back to the original question though...does anyone actually know *why Reiss dropped the price of their flagship, the Londinium LR24?*


 I can think of someone who might know&#8230; 🤔


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I can think of someone who might know&#8230; 🤔


 Do you know someone who works for Londinium?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> Do you know someone who works for Londinium?


 Don't think works for Londinium as such, but has some great insights. Haven't heard from such person in a while, otherwise would have asked.


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## 4085

DavecUK said:


> to get back to the original question though...does anyone actually know *why Reiss dropped the price of their flagship, the Londinium LR24?*


 perhaps he woke up in a good mood and felt guilty about slightly overpricing the LR24 compared to the LR..........or perhaps he read this forum and read the reviews of the Evo? Feeling guilty he asked that most British of companies Fracino, who are well known for producing high end catering equipment machines for use in cafes and coffee trailers if they would take a smaller margin on production. They obviously were familiar Matthew 13, so he was left with no option but to reduce the cost for British citizens most generously (but not by quite so much for other countries).......so, winners all round.........nearly!


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## 4085

Any LR24 members on here want to tell us if they are constantly adjusting the PI options that are available to them?


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## cuprajake

He changed his pricing system to balance things out, before the shipping was too high for U.K. people and too low for worldwide


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## 4085

@Cuprajake I thought it was free worldwide shipping matey?


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## DavecUK

dfk41 said:


> @Cuprajake I thought it was free worldwide shipping matey?


 That's right, it used to be free shipping.....In real terms, even though now shipping is paid...it's gone down a lot. Especially considering it was meant to increase by 5%


----------



## 4085

@DavecUK Perhaps it was just a keyboard typo?


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## cuprajake

In the grand scheme of things though. Who cares?

Its kind of obsessive behaviour to keep putting the boot in on one manufacturer whilst actively promoting another


----------



## Stevebee

Since the launch of the Evo Leva there is definitely more anti Londinium posts on the forum, some coming from people who have previously owned and been very happy with their own Londinium, and have at length extolled its virtues extensively in the past. Can't really understand why. The Londiniums have proven reliable over time, produce great shots , and offer and almost zen like espresso making experience, when plumbed in.

The Evo Leva, with much more technology, offers more control and options and with the 2 springs, more of a commercial experience. However, 3 PIDs, electronics display etc.. many more potential points of failure. Who knows over time. The Londinium does. For full disclosure I own a plumbed L1, Vesuvius and an Evo Leva on order. Just wish people could love Levers from all manufacturers - just glad there is more choice than ever before.


----------



## Denis S

A business means not only it's products but it's owner and builder too. Who swapped camps or hates on Londinium does it not because of the machine but of the temperamental behavior of the producer. Just like Kafatek.

I can see why it's not being promoted anymore, and I would not like to do business with a producer like that.

As for promoting X or Y or Vostok Leva, this is normal for a new product, a product now is as good as the media/IG/Forums and groups makes it. So that is absolutely normal, each forum has their own preferred producers.


----------



## 4085

I will tell you a short story. Back in 2012, Londinium opened its doors for business.One of the first recipients of a test machine, was Glenn, the then forum owner. Over a period of a couple of weeks he wrote a lot about owning one and the approach to coffee, extolling its virtue but interestingly, never owning one. It was nothing more than a gushing advert and is still available to read, should you wish. At the same time, a forum member who is no longer posting did some promotional videos for the company and received one of the prototypes as payment. So quite naturally, he became the first Londinium policeman on the forum and pushed the product at every chance.

On the back of Glenns article, several forum members openly bought, or put their name down for the product and as stock became available, they appeared on the forum. Meanwhile Londinium joined several forums around the world and made the most incredible claims to the possibilities that their machine could do. These often were challenged by various folks in Australia and the USA mainly......why.........because many of the claims were non-scientific and unproven.......claims were folklore until challenged. Statements were made and not challenged because there was no way to do so, especially around temperature stability.

The L1 progressed as it was originally according to folklore, best suited to medium or darker beans and the company realised they were missing out on the whole of the lighter end of the market. Londinium themselves were coffee roasters selling a range of beans best suited to their machines, then overnight they suddenly turned 360 and began roasting lighter. The L1 soon it became the LR. Time progressed and the machine with additions eventually became the LR24.

There has never really been much opposition to Londinium lever machines for the domestic market. Quickmill had a go and failed. Profitec had the P800 which never became a volume sales machine. The company has been tirelessly promoted by an individual who has never publicly disclosed his ties to the company, but since the demise of Foundry as agents, in reality is the face of Londinium in the UK. The endless promotions of the magical skills that all Londiniums have still goes on, and of course, once the Evo Leva became a possibility, then endless comparisons have been drawn between the two. These comparisons have come from both sides. Then 2 weeks ago the first production Evo Leva hits the streets and feedback naturally followed. Certain factions have been very keen to put the machine down, without ever having seen one or touched one of course. The Evo hit the streets after extensive testing by its designer to see whether a dual boiler 3 pid machine could work as a concept, overcoming all the known issues such as tipping. @DavecUK received his test bed at the back end of last year, so the claim that it has had extensive testing is well documented. I hope the possibly soon to be announced Vectis undergoes as thorough testing by a team that includes an engineer who has successfully been involved in bringing several other quality bits of kit to the market and has a wealth of experience to draw upon. Provable experience gained by being involved in the coffee industry at design and test level for many years,

So @Stevebee......perhaps there is behaviour ratios on both sides of the fence. Londinium bashing? Certainly not, but is there anything wrong with asking owners/representatives to qualify their claims made when there is nothing to be able to do this with, other than the ap that lets you change PI levels. The Evo on the other hand, through the use of modern technology can prove the claims that have been made. Only a fool would make claims that are not provable now, would they not?

I had one on the first L1's on the forum. I had my problems with the machine and then with Reiss. Those were ironed out until further technical issues happened and we fell out a second time. I went back to Londinium a third time buying a used L1 and still own one. It is inevitable that folks will want to compare the two machines, even though they are very different and really should not be compared, but when a user of an Evo who has owned Londiniums makes a statement such as using a certain bean that I know well, I cannot remember ever having tasted a shot as good as this before I used the Evo, is he not allowed to offer his opinion?

I do feel that many lever owners do like to promote levers over pump machines and to that extent they are quite happy that all lever manufacturers around the world co-exist.

Have a good one!


----------



## Stevebee

I have a number of reasons as well why I'm looking forward to the Evo as well. On the L1, for an 18g VST I struggle to get much more than 16g before it hits the screen, getting more than a 1:2 ratio if you stop before the "bad stuff" starts, and I believe my max pressure only hits 7 bar, which is similar to what I've seen on some Smart Sensor graphs.


----------



## steveholt

As in foundry coffee roasters of Sheffield??

I feel I am missing something here. Londinium are far older than foundry, no,?


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Cuprajake said:


> Its kind of obsessive behaviour to keep putting the boot in on one manufacturer whilst actively promoting another


 That is exactly what Reiss did back in 2012. He claimed there were GS3 owners ditching them in favour of the newly launched Londinium and pointing out the significant price difference between the GS3 and Londinium.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Original Londinium, at launch in 2012, was priced at just over £1.6k inc VAT and delivery. LR introduced in 2017? without the digital transducer factory fitted was around £2.5k. You could fit the digital transducer for £400 if you wanted on the fly PI options up to 6 bar. Didn't go down that route as I was unconvinced upping PI bar pressure would make much difference after reading Reiss's comments that there was little to be gained going above 4 bar. My thoughts focussed on being able to adjust shot extraction temperature.

IMO, Reiss made a mistake when he discontinued the LR leaving potential customers who wanted a tank fed Londinium the only option of the 24 whose price, before the recent price drop, was a stellar £3,880 with the only major difference being the inclusion of a quieter pump. Would have been interesting if Reiss had allowed customers more choice, LR with or without digital transducer (£2.5k and £2.9k) and the LR 24 at current price of around £3.4K.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

dfk41 said:


> but since the demise of Foundry as agents,


 I wasn't aware of that. So, say I buy a Londinium, e.g.: The Vectis. The only way to do so in the UK is now through their website. If something goes wrong, or the machine needs to be repaired, would it go back to Fracino? (I'm not saying this a good or bad thing, making it very clear. In fact, I have no problems with it going back to the factory, at all. I just want to know).


----------



## 4085

The original L1 was £1300 plus vat and shipping

1x LONDINIUM I - Plumbed / 240V, 2850W / UK for £1,300.00 each

1x LONDINIUM I - Luxe option (glass sides & tarnish free polished boiler) / - / - for £476.88 each

Subtotal : £1,776.88 GBP

Shipping : £29.16 GBP

VAT : £355.38 GBP

Total : £2,161.42 GBP

As Patric says, to where they stand now that is some journey!


----------



## 4085

So, a steel panelled L1 was £1,594.99..........inflation is an amazing thins


----------



## The Systemic Kid

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I wasn't aware of that. So, say I buy a Londinium, e.g.: The Vectis. The only way to do so in the UK is now through their website. If something goes wrong, or the machine needs to be repaired, would it go back to Fracino? (I'm not saying this a good or bad thing, making it very clear. In fact, I have no problems with it going back to the factory, at all. I just want to know).


 My understanding is that Londinium owners are encouraged to fix faults themselves and, to that end, Reiss has an excellent on-line facility to talk you through any repair. If you don't want to go down that route you have to ship the machine to Fracino and at your own expense I think.


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I wasn't aware of that. So, say I buy a Londinium, e.g.: The Vectis. The only way to do so in the UK is now through their website. If something goes wrong, or the machine needs to be repaired, would it go back to Fracino? (I'm not saying this a good or bad thing, making it very clear. In fact, I have no problems with it going back to the factory, at all. I just want to know).


*
Terms & Conditions
*



> UK warranty period: 12 months from the date on which the goods are received by the customer
> 
> The customer is responsible for securely packing the goods and the cost of carriage back to us. We will arrange the shipping of the goods back at the customer's expense
> 
> In the unlikely event the product fails within the first 28 days of purchase, we will collect it at our expense and if we are unable to repair within 14 days offer a new replacement
> 
> Damage caused by the customer, damage cause by scaling, and goods taken outside the UK are specifically excluded
> 
> International Warranty
> 
> Warranty for all goods shipped outside of UK mainland is a 12 months parts ONLY warranty


 This is what it states on the Londinium website...anecdotally I hear that owners usually repair their own machines on supply of parts, or sometimes a person might drop in and help them. I do know of one recent incident where a person had a defective machine in the first few days and Londinium were going to send the part out for that individual to fit.

The implication is that if you live in the UK, have a problem and ship the machine back to them, *at your expense* then they will repair it *and ship it back at your expense*...but the process seems unclear from the T&Cs.

I would imagine the shipping costs both ways, insurance (expensive on a £3400 machine and difficult to claim), and the risk of damage, discourages people shipping back machines for repair. Below is the cost of insurance with DPD of £167


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Don't know why anyone would go down the route of shipping a Londinium back to Fracino. Reiss will guide any owner on how to effect any necessary repairs.


----------



## El carajillo

The Systemic Kid said:


> Don't know why anyone would go down the route of shipping a Londinium back to Fracino. Reiss will guide any owner on how to effect any necessary repairs.


 That assumes all owners have the knowledge , skill , interest, tools and confidence to effect repairs ?. I doubt it.


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## 4085

@The Systemic Kid What happens if it is a biggie requiring group disassembly? I suppose the same answer which is if you are comfortable with handling the spanners then it is no issue. If like me, you are dangerous with tools in your hand, then it shares a different perspective.

Just as well both machines give peace of mind by offering a 24 month warranty from new


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## Denis S

Oh wee, you guys live in 1990? Almost all machines have a fix it by yourself policy now, just because they can send you the parts in 24-72h with fast shipping and because they have all the documentation send, and a live call with a technician can be established. They even send you tools, if you do not have them. Time is money now, we are not living in 1990. Everything is on a rush, and to fix something fast it's much faster to do it via online surveillance, because you are saving a lot of time just by the dead time to send the machine and have it back via courier. Not to mention you save the producer of a lot of money for the shipping. Producers now dont have the luxury to have a 300% profit on machine so they can request a private jet to pick your broken machine.

This is for Decent too, you are not going to send the machine to Hong Kong you are going to repair it yourself.

What happens after 1 or 2 years? after the warranty ended? you are going to buy another machine and sell the old one so you have warranty? in case something breaks you can send it to the factory.

If you are rich and you dont care, you just pay to get it fixed. If you are poor and need to save, you are going to repair it.

Friend got a Niche from me made in 2018 Uk, after 2 weeks it broke, he contacted Niche and got send a new board to be replaced. With video of how to do it.

2 friends got Decent, the one made in 2020 summer, that manifold out of reisin would crack and leak. Guess what? they got parts send to them and via Skype live they got it fixed.

These things should be considered once you buy a machine, if you dont know how to replace the group seals on a lever, then dont buy one.


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## 4085

steveholt said:


> As in foundry coffee roasters of Sheffield??
> 
> I feel I am missing something here. Londinium are far older than foundry, no,?


 Missing something......nope. At one time when Londinium were still based in the UK, Foundry became sales agents. One of the staff at Foundry was a very knowledgeable young forum member called @CallumT. After a period of time, the agency ceased leaving Londinium with no official UK representatives


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## MediumRoastSteam

dfk41 said:


> Just as well both machines give peace of mind by offering a 24 month warranty from new


 Correction: As per Londinium's website, the warranty is *12* months.



> UK warranty period: 12 months from the date on which the goods are received by the customer











Source: https://www.londiniumespresso.com/terms-conditions


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## 4085

@MediumRoastSteam My bad! many thanks MRS


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## GrahamSPhillips

Stevebee said:


> Since the launch of the Evo Leva there is definitely more anti Londinium posts on the forum, some coming from people who have previously owned and been very happy with their own Londinium, and have at length extolled its virtues extensively in the past. Can't really understand why. The Londiniums have proven reliable over time, produce great shots , and offer and almost zen like espresso making experience, when plumbed in.
> 
> The Evo Leva, with much more technology, offers more control and options and with the 2 springs, more of a commercial experience. However, 3 PIDs, electronics display etc.. many more potential points of failure. Who knows over time. The Londinium does. For full disclosure I own a plumbed L1, Vesuvius and an Evo Leva on order. Just wish people could love Levers from all manufacturers - just glad there is more choice than ever before.


 Thanks for this. Without getting into the rights and wrongs of the Londinium vs Evo debate, I'm interested that you are adding the Evo to your already fab line up. I'm thinking along similar lines. Keep my Vesuvius (at least for now) and purchase a new Evo or maybe a second hand Londinium. I've tried ++ and failed to get any kind of response from Londinium so I certainly would not be inclined to buy a brand new machine from them.. it will be very interesting to get your views on how all 3 compare... good luck with the line up! Graham


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## GrahamSPhillips

dfk41 said:


> I will tell you a short story. Back in 2012, Londinium opened its doors for business.One of the first recipients of a test machine, was Glenn, the then forum owner. Over a period of a couple of weeks he wrote a lot about owning one and the approach to coffee, extolling its virtue but interestingly, never owning one. It was nothing more than a gushing advert and is still available to read, should you wish. At the same time, a forum member who is no longer posting did some promotional videos for the company and received one of the prototypes as payment. So quite naturally, he became the first Londinium policeman on the forum and pushed the product at every chance.
> 
> On the back of Glenns article, several forum members openly bought, or put their name down for the product and as stock became available, they appeared on the forum. Meanwhile Londinium joined several forums around the world and made the most incredible claims to the possibilities that their machine could do. These often were challenged by various folks in Australia and the USA mainly......why.........because many of the claims were non-scientific and unproven.......claims were folklore until challenged. Statements were made and not challenged because there was no way to do so, especially around temperature stability.
> 
> The L1 progressed as it was originally according to folklore, best suited to medium or darker beans and the company realised they were missing out on the whole of the lighter end of the market. Londinium themselves were coffee roasters selling a range of beans best suited to their machines, then overnight they suddenly turned 360 and began roasting lighter. The L1 soon it became the LR. Time progressed and the machine with additions eventually became the LR24.
> 
> There has never really been much opposition to Londinium lever machines for the domestic market. Quickmill had a go and failed. Profitec had the P800 which never became a volume sales machine. The company has been tirelessly promoted by an individual who has never publicly disclosed his ties to the company, but since the demise of Foundry as agents, in reality is the face of Londinium in the UK. The endless promotions of the magical skills that all Londiniums have still goes on, and of course, once the Evo Leva became a possibility, then endless comparisons have been drawn between the two. These comparisons have come from both sides. Then 2 weeks ago the first production Evo Leva hits the streets and feedback naturally followed. Certain factions have been very keen to put the machine down, without ever having seen one or touched one of course. The Evo hit the streets after extensive testing by its designer to see whether a dual boiler 3 pid machine could work as a concept, overcoming all the known issues such as tipping. @DavecUK received his test bed at the back end of last year, so the claim that it has had extensive testing is well documented. I hope the possibly soon to be announced Vectis undergoes as thorough testing by a team that includes an engineer who has successfully been involved in bringing several other quality bits of kit to the market and has a wealth of experience to draw upon. Provable experience gained by being involved in the coffee industry at design and test level for many years,
> 
> So @Stevebee......perhaps there is behaviour ratios on both sides of the fence. Londinium bashing? Certainly not, but is there anything wrong with asking owners/representatives to qualify their claims made when there is nothing to be able to do this with, other than the ap that lets you change PI levels. The Evo on the other hand, through the use of modern technology can prove the claims that have been made. Only a fool would make claims that are not provable now, would they not?
> 
> I had one on the first L1's on the forum. I had my problems with the machine and then with Reiss. Those were ironed out until further technical issues happened and we fell out a second time. I went back to Londinium a third time buying a used L1 and still own one. It is inevitable that folks will want to compare the two machines, even though they are very different and really should not be compared, but when a user of an Evo who has owned Londiniums makes a statement such as using a certain bean that I know well, I cannot remember ever having tasted a shot as good as this before I used the Evo, is he not allowed to offer his opinion?
> 
> I do feel that many lever owners do like to promote levers over pump machines and to that extent they are quite happy that all lever manufacturers around the world co-exist.
> 
> Have a good one!


 So you have an L1 plus a new Evo? This is all very interesting.. I'm very tempted!


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## The Systemic Kid

GrahamSPhillips said:


> I've tried ++ and failed to get any kind of response from Londinium so I certainly would not be inclined to buy a brand new machine from them.. it will be very interesting to get your views on how all 3 compare... good luck with the line up! Graham


 Surprised about that - Reiss is usually quick to respond. Have you tried the 'chat' option?


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## 4085

@GrahamSPhillips I have had Londiniums since February 2013, albeit with a couple of gaps but I think I have had 4. Always favoured the simpler original model. When I bought the Evo the L1 now sits in my sons house a mile away, but it does let me look at the two machines. I only really try to compare the shots and not the features. But you know what it is like matey!


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## steveholt

dfk41 said:


> Missing something......nope. At one time when Londinium were still based in the UK, Foundry became sales agents. One of the staff at Foundry was a very knowledgeable young forum member called @CallumT. After a period of time, the agency ceased leaving Londinium with no official UK representatives


 I think I remember Callums posts. He did some work on PID on some early Londinia as part of a research project.

I never tied it all together nor registered that foundry were machine reps for Londinium. I only knew them as a roaster, that than had a cafe which I never got to visit.


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## 4085

@steveholt I cannot remember when they ceased to be agents but it is certainly 2 to 4 years ago. Callum is not there now either I think. If I remember correctly his degree was in some form of engineering and I think that is where now is, but perhaps someone knows more accurately


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## iroko

The Systemic Kid said:


> My understanding is that Londinium owners are encouraged to fix faults themselves and, to that end, Reiss has an excellent on-line facility to talk you through any repair. If you don't want to go down that route you have to ship the machine to Fracino and at your own expense I think.


 If any one has any trouble with their Evo are they going to ship it back to Italy ?


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## iroko

Why all the criticism of Londinium , it seems any criticism of the Evo on the other thread and the poster gets cancelled and disappear but little digs at Londinium seems fine, even one post calling Londinium A holes, which seems to be acceptable.

I've owned 2 LI's and currently LR24 and received nothing but top service from Reiss


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## 4085

@iroko When you buy a machine from Paolo, you buy it direct with a 24 month parts warranty with whatever help you may need supplied. I cannot be 100% certain but I am not aware of anyone receiving a machine and then wanting to ship it back. Perhaps the ACS quality control is better but I do note of course, Cuprajake very recently had to refuse an LR24 for qc reasons so perhaps it was lucky it only had to make the short trip back to Birmingham and not the long trek to Italy


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## iroko

dfk41 said:


> Any LR24 members on here want to tell us if they are constantly adjusting the PI options that are available to them?


 If I roast lighter I up the PI, normally I roast to a medium level and will just tweak the PI if I feel the need too.


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## iroko

dfk41 said:


> @iroko When you buy a machine from Paolo, you buy it direct with a 24 month parts warranty with whatever help you may need supplied. I cannot be 100% certain but I am not aware of anyone receiving a machine and then wanting to ship it back. Perhaps the ACS quality control is better but I do note of course, Cuprajake very recently had to refuse an LR24 for qc reasons so perhaps it was lucky it only had to make the short trip back to Birmingham and not the long trek to Italy


 I presume if any one does have any Issues they will be shipped the parts to fit themselves.


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## MediumRoastSteam

iroko said:


> f any one has any trouble with their Evo are they going to ship it back to Italy


 So it was me who asked whether, in case of having a problem, the machine would need to go back to the factory. For Londinium, this is great news if you are in the UK. Not so much for the ACS machine, as, it would need to go back to Italy in the worse case scenario.

In both cases, it's well documented here that both Londinium and ACS provide great assistance and help to their customers should something go wrong. I read here, and in other forums, that the after sales service of the machines provided by Londinium is legendary. I don't think any one is contesting that. The same seems to be with the quality of the Londinium machines. I mainly hear very good things from the owners.

I've bought machines before, where my retailer simply sent me the parts to fix my machine (It was Profitec at the time): A Gicar Box, for example. I much prefer to do that rather than send my machine back to be repaired.

However, this can be quite an intimidating task. If, for instance, there was a problem with a heating element, or a solenoid valve which is difficult to be accessed, I would, personally, drive my machine back to the retailer or factory to have it fixed. I simply don't have the skill or confidence to carry out the repair myself. One of the reasons I always opted to buy machines from where I know I could get it majorly fixed or repaired if I ever need to.

Londinium makes clear that, outside of the UK, the warranty is parts only. ACS, being based in Italy, is not different towards us here in the UK.

As said in other posts, when buying either machine is important that the owner is confident and capable of making repairs should it ever be needed.


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## 4085

iroko said:


> I presume if any one does have any Issues they will be shipped the parts to fit themselves.


 Yes, but they buy the machine in full knowledge of that fact, and that seems to be accepted as the way if you cut out the retailer these days. As long as it works well, I do not suppose anyone really minds


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## GrahamSPhillips

The Systemic Kid said:


> Surprised about that - Reiss is usually quick to respond. Have you tried the 'chat' option?


 Yep, tried and tried! (Maybe he doesn't like my after shave!)


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## 4085

GrahamSPhillips said:


> Yep, tried and tried! (Maybe he doesn't like my after shave!)


 Tell us what you wear and someone might have an opinion!


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## The Systemic Kid

GrahamSPhillips said:


> Yep, tried and tried! (Maybe he doesn't like my after shave!)


 Brut is so last year


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## GrahamSPhillips

The Systemic Kid said:


> Brut is so last year
> 
> View attachment 58302


 I'm a pharmacist - I actually used to sell that [email protected] at one time! We focus on higher things these days you'll be pleased to know


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## DavecUK

@The Systemic Kid









"Splash it all over"...I think that was the strapline of old Enry. I confess to the power of the advert...I and all my friends bought some. Even some girls bought it!!


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## DavecUK

I believed this as well...didn't work!






🤣


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## cuprajake

Fwiw

I have the l1 which ive loved,. I wanted to mess with pre infusion pressure.

I was going to buy a used lr £2200

But in the end thought stuff it. Ill go brand new

I had three issuse

The new machines have a nipple on the front that doesn't drain in to but rather onto the drip tray

The steam gauge only showed 0.8bar

The lever came damaged

Reiss replied immediately and had a new complete group booked out to send to me

The bleed nipple was one of those things app. Nothing to be done

The steam gauge was reference only now with the new digital pressure control.

He offered to send me another machine in exchange or a refund. I chose refund.

Thats were that part of the story ends. He closed my case and removed my londinium forum account.

If were talking customer service. I bought my londinium from norvin and at the time it was 7yrs old. It needed a bit of service i emailed me londinium, was added to the forum and reiss even offered to facetime me to go through using the machine, a machine not under warranty, not sold by him for a long time, but he wanted to be sure i was happy in using the machine

Id say as a chap ive found him hot and cold, his passion remains the same id say. Biggest issue is he doesnt do the final checks on the machine as he no longer lives in the uk, and as such is at the hands of a commercial manufacturer to check.

Ive now decided to refurb my londinium l1 with some new bits, i sent in a support ticket and was answered first thing this morning, it was sent sat am.

I see no issuses

All this thread proves to do is to crap on one companies name who sell a lever to push new sales onto the new machine.

Im actually quite upset at the senior members of this forum who seem to be running rampant, its pushing alot lf people away. And in all honesty its just not nice to see

Id say if people have £3500 to spend on a londinium there going to. If they dont have that budget then its the acs atm there is no real in between


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## GrahamSPhillips

The Systemic Kid said:


> Surprised about that - Reiss is usually quick to respond. Have you tried the 'chat' option?


 I take it back . I tried again earlier this evening and Reiss responded very quickly. Don't want to falsely besmerch anyone


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## Benjamin8732

Cuprajake said:


> ll this thread proves to do is to crap on one companies name who sell a lever to push new sales onto the new machine.
> 
> Im actually quite upset at the senior members of this forum who seem to be running rampant, its pushing alot lf people away. And in all honesty its just not nice to see


 Well said @Cuprajake and if anything this is damaging the reputation and creditability of this forum.

Competition and innovation is always a good thing as it gives people options and they should be able to coexist without this happening. Perhaps, as suggested all this is just designed to hype sales of the new machine.


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## MW11

iroko said:


> Why all the criticism of Londinium , it seems any criticism of the Evo on the other thread and the poster gets cancelled and disappear but little digs at Londinium seems fine, even one post calling Londinium A holes, which seems to be acceptable.
> 
> I've owned 2 LI's and currently LR24 and received nothing but top service from Reiss


 A year ago I asked Reiss on Live Chat on his website about Profitec Pro 800 (which I had at that time) and he told me that it is a dipper system and therefor heat management is an issue. He told me it over heats and I can't make back to back espressos at all. I was new to the lever machines and it was really disappointing that I bought such incapable machine! So I hated profitec and looked for any excuse to sell it just to convince myself it was a bad machine. Then I kept track of Londinium hoping to get one. LR24 was announced at a good price I don't remember how much exactly but it was like 2700$ then he changed the currency to £ and the price got higher. So, I kept eyeing the LR24 and comparing it to decent here on this thread on HB :

https://www.home-barista.com/advice/decent-espresso-de1-or-londinium-lr24-t66701.html
a lot of people told me to get a decent but I couldn't! I just want a lever machine. Then I got lucky and secured a monolith Max that's when I decided to look for the ultimate lever machine as I got the ultimate grinder (personal opinion). I didn't even know about the evo leva and was replying to a thread on HB that's when @LObin told me about this machine!!! 
https://www.home-barista.com/advice/profitec-800-vs-londinium-r24-buying-advice-t72742-10.html

after reading about it for 2 days and watching Dave's youtube videos and asking him in the comment section on YouTube I revisited my Londinium decision and started watching all Londinium's videos again. Still couldn't make up my mind so I decided to ask the 3 companies the same question (decent/Londinium/ACS) and I did (I was really torn between those 3 machines). Shin TV replied to my email and he was really polite and never bashed any machine he just kept talking about their technology and philosophy and said all the right things but decent was too much for me. Reiss on the other hand replied to my questions in a unprofessional way and he was impolite and I can show you all the questions and replies I got from all 3 just to compare the mentality and the kind of support you're going to get. You can search all my posts on HB and see that I actually recommended LR24 to a lot of people and still do! I still think it's a good machine very complicated single boiler lever but a really good one! I don't have a problem with the machine I have a problem with the man behind the machine and if you were in my place and got the same treatment you will have the same feelings as well. If he was like that how am I going to count on him for support? Like I said I will post their answers if you want me and if the forums rules allow me to. The funny thing that I gave Paolo a really hard time on the 3 pids and I argued with him about that like he needs to answer to me! and he was very polite and patient. Then he told me that he actually has a distributor here in Saudi and that was the major deciding factor for me + I think it's the best lever espresso machine for home

Last note: I'd like to thank Reiss as he was the one who helped me making up my mind and got me to pull the trigger on this amazing machine.


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## MediumRoastSteam

MW11 said:


> website about Profitec Pro 800 (which I had at that time) and he told me that it is a dipper system and therefor heat management is an issue. He told me it over heats and I can't make back to back espressos at all.


 Interesting...

https://www.home-barista.com/blog/profitec-pro-800-review-t44660.html


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## Mrboots2u

Hey Mr BMW dealer , do you think I should buy a Jaguar? No they are not very good but a BMW from me.


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## MW11

Mrboots2u said:


> Hey Mr BMW dealer , do you think I should buy a Jaguar? No they are not very good but a BMW from me.


 😂😂😂😂😂

well, Londinium has a huge fan base on every forum and everyone talked about them. So I wanted to see the hype and be a cool guy like everyone else 🥲. Then I found out about DIY dual boiler levers and LM Leva X and realized that there is a whole different world out there. It doesn't matter what machine you have as long as you are happy with it and it makes good espresso (sadly this is a fact I came to realize too late). My friend has a ECM Classkia II Pid and he couldn't be happier with it and I sometimes envy his passion towards his machine and his tiger-stripped stream shots. So, you are right on that! never ask anyone about your gear and be happy with whatever gear you have 👍🏻


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## MediumRoastSteam

MW11 said:


> So, you are right on that! never ask anyone about your gear and be happy with whatever gear you have


 It's also very easily to get carried away, in a way, by reading and seeing people using their gear and thinking that is the "right thing for me" kind of thing. Just to then buy it, try it, and actually realise your previous machine made as good, if not better coffee.

Unfortunately, it's hard to "taste" over the internet through a screen (one day, one day!).

And that's not only with coffee machines, but also with grinders. (In my case, nothing to do with Londinium - I never owned one)


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## Happyguy

Have been reading through a lot of the threads on londiniums, I can see it was once such a well thought of lever machine then for some reason a select few people here started to bash it in favour of another machine. Interesting that it has been quiet here as I would love to know more about the LR24 purely on the basis that I would like to support a British firm instead of ploughing my money into a European machine. Is there anywhere that I can go to see an LR24 in action?


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## Fez

Happyguy said:


> Have been reading through a lot of the threads on londiniums, I can see it was once such a well thought of lever machine then for some reason a select few people here started to bash it in favour of another machine. Interesting that it has been quiet here as I would love to know more about the LR24 purely on the basis that I would like to support a British firm instead of ploughing my money into a European machine. Is there anywhere that I can go to see an LR24 in action?


 Probably the best place to ask is the other UK coffee forum which consists of members that used to be here.

Failing that, try messaging them on Instagram, Reiss is super responsive and may have a way for you to see one in the flesh


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## Happyguy

@Fez I messaged Reiss and contrary to what some of the haters on this thread have said, he was super helpful. I am sure there are not many business owners that would go the level of detail that he did. I should being seeing one in the flesh very soon and hopefully can make a decision then.


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## Fez

Happyguy said:


> @Fez I messaged Reiss and contrary to what some of the haters on this thread have said, he was super helpful. I am sure there are not many business owners that would go the level of detail that he did. I should being seeing one in the flesh very soon and hopefully can make a decision then.


 You know you really can't trust what everyone on the internet says or where they may have other interests. Untill recently many of the haters had Londoniums and praised Reiss for his service.

All that aside, every time I've contacted Reiss he's been extremely helpful and always goes the extra mile. I had issues setting my LR when it arrived, popped Reiss an email and within 15 minutes he was on a video call with me helping me through the set up (this was 6am local time for him), that quick video call enabled me to set the machine up and pull shots right away


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## GrahamSPhillips

@Happyguy Do let us know how you get on.. honestly its a bloody hobby, I really can't understand all this bitterness (*too much over-extracted espresso maybe?) LoL


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## coffeechap

Fez said:


> You know you really can't trust what everyone on the internet says or where they may have other interests. Untill recently many of the haters had Londoniums and praised Reiss for his service.
> 
> All that aside, every time I've contacted Reiss he's been extremely helpful and always goes the extra mile. I had issues setting my LR when it arrived, popped Reiss an email and within 15 minutes he was on a video call with me helping me through the set up (this was 6am local time for him), that quick video call enabled me to set the machine up and pull shots right away


 Hey up fella, this thread turned into a whole lot of hate! Amazing what the haters can do when there is no one to counter with them. You still enjoying the ZM?


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## Fez

coffeechap said:


> Hey up fella, this thread turned into a whole lot of hate! Amazing what the haters can do when there is no one to counter with them. You still enjoying the ZM?


 I had to stick around even though the usual folk had moved on, I enjoyed the laughs and watching people switch sides so quickly! Glad you are back dude!

I am still enjoying it! But..... I do have a monolith coming in a few months  I'll be sure to find the ZM a good home when it gets here


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## coffeechap

Fez said:


> I had to stick around even though the usual folk had moved on, I enjoyed the laughs and watching people switch sides so quickly! Glad you are back dude!
> 
> I am still enjoying it! But..... I do have a monolith coming in a few months  I'll be sure to find the ZM a good home when it gets here


 Glad you did stick around, you will enjoy the monolith (max I take it) different to the ZM but a notch up in terms taste. You were fortunate to have the Manual ZM so other burr options are still a possibility, which is a bit of a shame on the electronic version.


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## Fez

coffeechap said:


> Glad you did stick around, you will enjoy the monolith (max I take it) different to the ZM but a notch up in terms taste. You were fortunate to have the Manual ZM so other burr options are still a possibility, which is a bit of a shame on the electronic version.


 Yup it's a Max!

Hoping it solves my only gripe with ZM. I find the ZM workflow for switching between espresso and filter less than ideal.


----------

