# Espresso extraction troubleshooting



## bronc

Hi guys. I've been having some problems with my extractions which I noticed after I got my naked portafilter. Basically the stream is a bit off-centered towards the handle. Mrboots2u recommended that I should rotate the basket after I've dosed and tamped it to check if the stream will change it's origin point but I still haven't gotten round to it. Tastewise my shots are bitter and I have a feeling that even though I'm using a brew ratio of 1.6 I'm still getting blonding..

I recorded a short video today with my iPad (yes, you guessed right - it's a crappy video) and will be doing the same for the next couple of days hoping for some opinions and tips from you guys. I'm currently using Rave Signature Blend beans that are now about 2-3 weeks old. For this shot the data is: 15.5g in, 23g out, 32-3sec (overextracted). I'm also experimenting with temperatures since I've got a PID on my Silvia. For this shot the temperature was 88*C which is at least +-2*C from the actual water temperature (I have a -7*C offset meaning that the actual temperature the TC is sensing is around 95*C on top of the boiler). I know this is way too low but I'm just trying what taste differences I can detect. However, even at such a low temperature the shots are still bitter! Before this shot I had another one which ran too fast - something like 22-23 grams for 20 seconds which should be underextracted and sour, not bitter, especially at 88*C but it still was bitter..










EDIT: I will try to rotate my iPad properly tomorrow. Sorry!


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## repeat

From an extraction standpoint from what I can tell it doesn't look so bad. Maybe a bit of wdt as you seems to have a dead spot which suggests it could be more packed with coffee. Personally, I would go extreme and try and find sour by coursing up the grind and letting it run through (without major channeling) in about 20 or so seconds.

Fine tune from there.


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## Mrboots2u

Hi agree from a time point of view doesn't look to bad . Little bit of channeling there, have you tried nutating when tamping to help ? If unsure want this please ill try my best to explain.

. An bitter shot could be too high a Temperature when the shot is being pulled also but you have a pid so rule that out .


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## urbanbumpkin

I'm only looking at this on an IPhone but it looks pretty good.

I did notice the droplets start from front to back of the PF and it looks like there was bit of a dip in the forming of the cone (sorry don't know what the technical name for this is).

WDT or nutating should sort the distribution issues. But a valid point regarding the temp and bitterness.


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## garydyke1

bronc said:


> Hi guys. I've been having some problems with my extractions which I noticed after I got my naked portafilter. Basically the stream is a bit off-centered towards the handle. Mrboots2u recommended that I should rotate the basket after I've dosed and tamped it to check if the stream will change it's origin point *but I still haven't* *gotten round to it*. Tastewise my shots are bitter and I have a feeling that even though I'm using a brew ratio of 1.6 I'm still getting blonding..
> 
> I recorded a short video today with my iPad (yes, you guessed right - it's a crappy video) and will be doing the same for the next couple of days hoping for some opinions and tips from you guys. I'm currently using Rave Signature Blend beans that are now about 2-3 weeks old. For this shot the data is: 15.5g in, 23g out, 32-3sec (overextracted). I'm also experimenting with temperatures since I've got a PID on my Silvia. For this shot the temperature was 88*C which is at least +-2*C from the actual water temperature (I have a -7*C offset meaning that the actual temperature the TC is sensing is around 95*C on top of the boiler). I know this is way too low but I'm just trying what taste differences I can detect. However, even at such a low temperature the shots are still bitter! Before this shot I had another one which ran too fast - something like 22-23 grams for 20 seconds which should be underextracted and sour, not bitter, especially at 88*C but it still was bitter..
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> EDIT: I will try to rotate my iPad properly tomorrow. Sorry!


Try this and report back . You look to have distribution issues


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## bronc

My Mazzer is testing my nerves! My first shot for today ran for almost one minute even though the SJ was at the same setting as yesterday.. I guess these new burrs are still settling even though they already have almost 2 kilos on them. Gary, I tried it today but with this barely dripping shot I couldn't get much information. I'll try again later today.


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## Mrboots2u

bronc said:


> My Mazzer is testing my nerves! My first shot for today ran for almost one minute even though the SJ was at the same setting as yesterday.. I guess these new burrs are still settling even though they already have almost 2 kilos on them. Gary, I tried it today but with this barely dripping shot I couldn't get much information. I'll try again later today.


Things it could be.

Burrs need more running in.

Change in temperature has effected beans ? ( left in hopper or do you single dose ? )

Dose and tamp the same ? Dose easily to measure though scales. Tamp not so much .

More than likely the first one , let us know now you get on today though .


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## bronc

That might be the case as well. I've got a kilo of cheap cheap beans so if I find some time I'll run them through the grinder in order to season the burrs more. I always single dose in the hopper measuring the beans with my scales first and then (try to) tamp the same. I think I'll try tamping on a set of big scales so I can get an approximation of my tamping pressure.

Here's today's video. Data: 15.7g in, 23g out, 30sec, 88*C. Bitter aftertaste, sour taste overall. Again a dead spot in the extraction and the pour moves around.


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## Mrboots2u

Yep distribution I think, causing channeling and dead spots, again if you turn the basket does the dead spot move . Try and find a tamp style or pressure that you can consistently repeat, it doesn't need to be the whole grail of 30lbs , just one that along with your grind and dose produces good tasting shots, and that you fell confident you can do the me each time . Are you nutating before tamping and or using WDT?


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## garydyke1

A video of your shot prep might put this into context better


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## bronc

Not nutating and not doing WDT. Just dosing in the basket, taping it so it levels, tamping, and that's it. I'm not really sure how to do the nutation thing.

@gary, I'll try but filming with the iPad is quite difficult for me.. especially when both my hands to dose, tamp, etc.


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## GS11

bronc said:


> Not nutating and not doing WDT. Just dosing in the basket, taping it so it levels, tamping, and that's it. I'm not really sure how to do the nutation thing.
> 
> @gary, I'll try but filming with the iPad is quite difficult for me.. especially when both my hands to dose, tamp, etc.


Nutation may assist with your distribution in the basket

Heres a short clip on nutation.....try it and report back


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https://flic.kr/p/4175453850


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## bronc

Here are this morning's two attempts using nutation as shown in the clip posted by GS11 (thanks!). First shot ran too slow (15.5g in, 23g out, 36sec) and again there was a dead spot. Again the aftertaste was overpowering and unpleasant bitterness even at 88*C (+/- 2*C margin of error). I moved the collar on the SJ a bit and the second shot poured in 26 sec (15.5g in, 24g out, 26 sec). You can see from the video that the pour was all over the place, though. There was less bitterness but it is still way more than what I'd expect from a shot that ran for 26 sec and at such a low temperature. However, I'm not really sure how a really good shot should taste since I've never had one! I wish there were some specialty coffee places in this country but everyone around here seems to think that Lavazza beans and B2C machines are creme de la creme and the more bitter the coffee tastes, the better it is.









Anyways, here are the two videos:


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## garydyke1

The issue still looks to me like distribution/shot prep. Need to see it to accurately diagnose


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## 4085

Did I miss the beans that you are using please? Yes I did, Race Signature. There is no temp adjustment on the Miss. Why not ditch the naked for a bit and go back to the conventional using the same bean etc. If you can pull a devent shot, then it must be down to technique.

others may not agree, but I think a naked is a tool to be used to check upon how good or bad your shot preparation is and not for every time you pull a shot.!


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## bronc

@garydyke1, I'll try to think of a way to film my prep.

@dfk41, my Silvia is PID'd so there is kind of a temperature control. Of course the 88*C is not the real temperature of the water but I've played with the offset so it should be within +/- 2*C from the actual number. I'll be ordering the Jampit next week if it hasn't ran out so I'll see if I just don't like the beans. I can't really ditch the naked because I've cut down the original one







I can get a normal one but I don't think it will help me much. I don't stare at the extraction every time I make a shot but right now I do because I'm trying to figure out what's wrong.


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## Wobin19

Thanks for this great post Bronc, it's proving to be very helpful. I am getting similar results and advise given here has identified my problem. After tamping, the level in the basket appeared to be level, but in fact, it was only level left to right and not front to back which was why the coffee was slow to extract from the back. I identified it when I rotated the basket 180 degrees and sure enough, the slow spot moved to the front.

Just wondered if by any chance you have checked tamp is level front to back as your pours look a lot like mine.


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## bronc

Haha, actually I've noticed something similar! The level of the grinds is higher on the side of the handle than it is on the other side! Solution?

I'm also waiting for a friend to bring me two Espressoparts baskets (HQ baskets) from the US because I'm not very happy with the stock silvia one.


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## garydyke1

Feel with your finger/thumb tips where the edge of the tamper meets the basket


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## MWJB

Bronc wrote: "However, I'm not really sure how a really good shot should taste since I've never had one!"

Well, I can see that it would be hard to have a datum to compare to, but given this..."Again the aftertaste was overpowering and unpleasant bitterness even at 88*C (+/- 2*C margin of error)." ...unpleasant bitterness definitely isn't a characteristic of a good shot.

Split the shot up. Run the first 20 sec into one cup, then 5 sec each into 3 more, keep them in order. Stir & taste the 20s cup (just a little), then add cup #2 stir, taste again...add #3 & repeat. You might even want to try tasting the final drips off the portafilter...are they watery & dull, dryingly bitter, acidic? This may help you determine whether you are generally under/overshooting?

+1 on Gary's feeling the tamper & basket tip.


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## bronc

Thank you for all the positive tips! Will try them out.


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## bronc

I tried making another espresso following the methods here but my SJ is behaving quite strangely. I noticed from the way the grinds were exiting the chute that it was grinding more finely from the morning even though I hadn't changed the grind settings and this was confirmed when the shot which ran for 26sec in the morning ran for almost 50 seconds in the afternoon. I decided to run one more kilo of beans in order to season the burrs better. Hopefully there will be an improvement..


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## Gangstarrrrr

Could it be humidity swings causing changes in the grind?


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## bronc

That's one possible reason - in the morning I had the AC running on 21*C because it's quite cold in the mornings while in the afternoon it was off. I don't know whether this could cause the grind to change so dramatically that it almost doubled the running time of my shot.


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## Charliej

bronc said:


> That's one possible reason - in the morning I had the AC running on 21*C because it's quite cold in the mornings while in the afternoon it was off. I don't know whether this could cause the grind to change so dramatically that it almost doubled the running time of my shot.


Well ac is good at lowering humidity in a room and drying things out a lot.


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## bronc

I just tried out something which I was thinking of trying for quite some time but also forgot. I stopped the shot at around 18g which was the its weight at about the 26th second. Voila, most of the bitterness was gone even though there was still a few dead spots and the pour wasn't stable. I think that because I can't get an even pour I'm getting overextractions of some parts of the puck which results in the bitterness. I hope that when I get my HQ baskets things will get better because the stock Silvia basket is pretty small and when I tamp I don't feel the puck "giving in" as much as it did with the Gaggia's basket (which unfortunately doesn't fit on the Silvia portafilter) and apparently I don't tamp level.


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## GS11

Bronc just checking, how new are your SJ burrs and are they seasoned in?


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## bronc

To be honest, au have no way of telling. They already have around 2-2.5kg on them but I don't know if that's enough since I changed the burrs almost exactly after I got the SJ so taste-wise I can't compare.


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## GS11

bronc said:


> To be honest, au have no way of telling. They already have around 2-2.5kg on them but I don't know if that's enough since I changed the burrs almost exactly after I got the SJ so taste-wise I can't compare.


Hopefully your SJ may settle down after a few more kg. This combined with your AC may possibly be causing inconsistent grind.


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## bronc

I've been finding coffee grinds at the bottom of my cup ever since I got the Silvia and today I noticed that whenever I tap my portafilter in order to even it out some coffee grinds tend to go through the basket's holes. Maybe that's an issue as well? I'm waiting for a friend to bring me some HQ baskets from espressoparts but I think it won't be before the beginning of next month that I'll get them


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## bronc

Just had a very good espresso (very mild almost no acidity) with only slight bitter aftertaste (as compared to my previous attempts) with the PID set at 86*C! 15.5g in, 23g, out. I'm gonna try to reduce the temperature even further and see how it'll taste. That's weird..


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## Mrboots2u

Good news indeed!


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## bronc

It is good news but it is also very awkward. Tomorrow morning (because I've had way too much coffee for today) I'll try one shot at 80*C and one at 94*C without changing the grind. Maybe my TC is crap because that 86*C is actually 93*C when I remove the offset (i.e. 93*C on the outside of the boiler). Maybe since I keep my machine on for over two hours the water temperature inside is equalized with the water temperature on the surface of the boiler?


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## bronc

My friend surprised me with my HQ baskets so I just pulled a shot using the ridged one. Without changing the grind setting on my SJ, the shot ran 4-5 seconds faster than with the stock Silvia basket. Tamping is also a pleasure since the basket can easily accommodate the 15-16g I'm used to unlike the Silvia one. The PID was set to 87* (94*C without the offset) and the shot lacked most of the bitterness that I've tasted for the last couple of days/weeks. Other than that, the Signature Blend is already pretty much at the end of its life as it is its fifth week now but I've got around 80-100g left which should be enough until the Jampit gets here (excited!). I also got the ridgeless one but as you can see from the picture it has a different hole pattern which probably means that I'll need to play with the grind a little bit more so I'll try it out later on. Here are two photos:


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## michaelg

Just wondering - does any else ever encounter a salty taste in an espresso? I've noticed this a few times lately and I'm not sure if some beans just taste that way or if it's something I'm doing wrong. I'm using a 22g VST and extracting 36g from this in the ballpark 25-30s timescale. I usually level off, nutate and then tamp. I was wondering if it was the cups - perhaps salt residue from the dishwasher but this time I rinsed the cup twice with water from the machine's hot water tap.

I usuallly use Brita filtered water (and the machine - a Cherub has a filter built in too). I tried water direct from the grouphead and it didn't tast particularly salty either so I'm stumped!


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## michaelg

I should add - current beans are Rave's Sumatra Mandheling but had it with different beans too - also mainly from Rave.


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## bronc

It's been a while but I'm still trying to improve my extraction. My only problem now is that I don't get a centered extraction using my naked portafilter. It is always off-centered and closer to the handle than to the center of the basket. I'm almost 100% sure that the problem is from my tamping but even after grinding finer and tamping very lightly the problem is still present. In the video I'm dosing 15.5g beans (Rave Signature Blend) and extracting 23-24g of liquid in 27 seconds. The taste is slightly too bitter than what I would expect which I believe is due to the uneven extraction.

[video=youtube;TVN-w1-SMGE]


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## bronc

I played with my technique this morning and I am completely lost! I tried not tamping at all and I still had side channeling. I noticed that there there is a 'dead spot' in the middle of the portafilter and the extraction is a bit doughnut shaped and off-centered towards the handle. Can the grouphead nut be causing this?

EDIT: The OPV has been adjusted to around 9.5 bars


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## Mrboots2u

bronc said:


> I played with my technique this morning and I am completely lost! I tried not tamping at all and I still had side channeling. I noticed that there there is a 'dead spot' in the middle of the portafilter and the extraction is a bit doughnut shaped and off-centered towards the handle. Can the grouphead nut be causing this?


How much are you dosing and in what basket ?

Are you fall tamping ? Nutating ?


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## bronc

I'm dosing 15.5g in a 14g HQ Parts basket. No nutating, just straight tamping.


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## Mrboots2u

bronc said:


> I'm dosing 15.5g in a 14g HQ Parts basket. No nutating, just straight tamping.


Ok one last question how did u adjust the opv as well ?


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## bronc

I added one or two shims (I don't really remember as it was a year ago) and measured it using a portafilter pressure gauge. I had my pf cut to a naked one so I can't check the pressure now but I think it shouldn't have changed.

EDIT: I got a countersunk screw that I will install tonight but I don't think it will help.


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## Mrboots2u

bronc said:


> I'm dosing 15.5g in a 14g HQ Parts basket. No nutating, just straight tamping.


Do you have any other baskets ...

Over dosing that basket isnt , I suspect giving you any headroom for the puck .

Have you got a stock basket or vst or ims , where you could under dose it

Eg 16 -17 in a 18 g vst .....


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## bronc

I don't have any bigger baskets and I can't get a hold of one here so I would have to order it from the UK. However, what I did try was the ridgeless HQ Parts basket (I was using the ridged one so far) which is a little bit deeper. No change in the pour - again extracting closer to the handle with the center being a dead spot. I tried underdosing to 14g and adjusting the grind - no change. I will try a few shots without tamping tomorrow morning as I didn't have the nerves to try this with the new basket after pulling 5-6 shots and seeing no improvement









EDIT: What I did notice is that the center of the puck is a bit drier than the sides (I tried to "dissect" it with a fork). I also didn't manage to install the new bolt because it is too long. Argh!

EDIT2: I was thinking that it could be from my tamper (58mm curved Motta) but then I remembered that even when I didn't tamp I still couldn't get an even extraction.


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## Mrboots2u

You need to tamp a bit, if only to level and compact the grinds ......


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## bronc

I know but if my tamping is bad not tamping at all would either remove the problem and/or cause another one


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## Mrboots2u

bronc said:


> I know but if my tamping is bad not tamping at all would either remove the problem and/or cause another one


It will cause another one


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## bronc

Well, yes, but the thing is that when I tried this (either no tamping or barely touching the coffee with the tamper) I still got uneven extraction and a dead spot in the middle. From what I've read the dead spot can be caused when using a flat tamper and is fixed by switching to a convex one but I'm already using a convex Motta. Maybe I should try dosing only 12g to check if it's not a basket issue?


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## garydyke1

Clear candidate for training : )


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## bronc

I would love to.. but I'm a bit far away. No proper baristas around this parts of the world as well.


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## garydyke1

Sign up to Learn Coffee with Gwilym Davies

http://europeancoffeetrip.com/gwilym


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## Nod

> Sign up to Learn Coffee with Gwilym Davies http://europeancoffeetrip.com/gwilym


Great spot Gary. If this is as good as it looks like it should be it will be a cool resource for us all...


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## Nod

> Great spot Gary. If this is as good as it looks like it should be it will be a cool resource for us all...


We should start it as a new thread... Raise profile for anyone not monitoring this thread (it would be nice to support it) and Then people Could post comments after each episode?


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## bronc

Thanks, I signed up. I'm really looking forward to it.

This morning I tried rotating the basket after tamping and the pour was again closer to the handle?! I also noticed that when I pull a faster shot, i.e. grind coarser, I don't get a dead spot in the middle and the pour is centered. Both shots were pulled with 14g of beans to make sure I'm not overdosing the basket and were tamped very lightly just to compress and distribute the grinds evenly.


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## bronc

An update from this morning - rotating the basket didn't solve the off-centered pour (closer to the handle). I replaced the nut so apparently that's not the issue.


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