# why not buy a "SAGE™THE BARISTA EXPRESS™"?



## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

Hi long time lurker, just joined.

I currently use a Delonghi combi machine, which makes passable drip, but appalling espresso based drinks, pressurised portafilter, and a plastic tamper built in. What can I say, it was the best I could do at the time. Now it's upgrade time.

I have a budget of around £500

The vast majority of my drinks will be espresso or Americano, especially after a Maltese friend of mine pointed out that filling yourself with frothy milk was a bit childish









I'm a firm believer in buying the best you can at the time, rather than taking multiple steps to get to the same point. I know the cheapest proper espresso machine would be a huge leap forward, but quickly the lack of adjustability would limit what I could do with it. From what I can see pretty much everything on the BE can be tweaked, even the PID controlled temp has a slight adjustment.

I know a separate grinder / espresso machine would be better - but what could I get for the same price? I can't find a machine that offers all the same flexibility for £500, let alone have enough over for a decent grinder. Bean hopper getting warm, not good for beans, but that just means you don't put many beans in.

The only negatives I can see is that it isn't a 30 year old Italian design, longevity of components is an unknown - but the Lakeland warranty takes care of that.

Have I missed anything?


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

Perhaps a used Oscar and a used mazer super jolly

there are a few for sale in the sale section of the forums. You need to reach. A minimum level of posts before this section becomes visable


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

As an all in one machine it's not bad at all, and certainly a step in the right direction.

With the guarantees from the retailers if problems do occur you will be better covered than with many other machines.


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## Wobbit (Aug 16, 2015)

Pretty interested in the opinions of this machine, I'm in pretty much the same situation as the op. Second hand seems the only other option for me.


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## 7877 (Aug 14, 2014)

Hmmm......for that money surely you would get better from some second hand kit. And as most will say here first...grinder grinder grinder....


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

I'm not a fan of s/h gear, no warranty, and the nagging doubt about why they are selling up.

It's a pity the Duo-Temp isn't a Barister Express without the grinder.


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## Wobbit (Aug 16, 2015)

Yeah the 2 year warranty from Lakeland makes it pretty tempting. I'm not seeing any bad reviews. The negative would be the inability to upgrade or replace the grinder/ machine independenly.


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

Wobbit said:


> Yeah the 2 year warranty from Lakeland makes it pretty tempting. I'm not seeing any bad reviews. The negative would be the inability to upgrade or replace the grinder/ machine independenly.


It's a lifetime satisfaction guarantee plus the initial two year manafacturers warranty.

Wherever you buy it from you'll get the two year manufacturers but if you get it from Lakeland you're essentially covered for life


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

and they will price match, which should save £50


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

I've used one of these a few times, biggest frustrations are the grinder - not only is it pants, but it sits on the cup warmer so while it's hot and ready in a couple of mins your shots are all over the place.

the other frustration is the non standard group head/basket sizes so you have less choice over other gear.

id go second hand other stuff..


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Fevmeister said:


> It's a lifetime satisfaction guarantee plus the initial two year manafacturers warranty.
> 
> Wherever you buy it from you'll get the two year manufacturers but if you get it from Lakeland you're essentially covered for life


Is the Lakeland guarantee definitely for life?


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

Yes


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

robashton said:


> I've used one of these a few times, biggest frustrations are the grinder - not only is it pants, but it sits on the cup warmer so while it's hot and ready in a couple of mins your shots are all over the place.
> 
> the other frustration is the non standard group head/basket sizes so you have less choice over other gear.
> 
> id go second hand other stuff..


Is the grinder really that bad? non of the reviews have mentioned it. I accept it won't be as good as a £1k stand alone. why are the shots all over the place?

I'm not sure the non standard group size will be an issue for me.


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

The grind temperature is influenced and affected by the grinding mechanisms sitting next to the boiler/s and the cup warming by tray


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

The grinder is deeply frustrating. A second hand mazzer would be better. That I even wrote something good about a mazzer here should tell you a lot..


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

and I thought the mazzer was a good grinder. the more i find out, the less i know


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

GrahamS it depends a little on which one but, as far as I know, Mazzer do some good grinders for the price that you can pick them up for. I think it's fair to say that Rob has his sights set firmly at making the best possible espresso and so demands a lot of the equipment that he either uses or has seen used


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

yeah - Mazzer are absolutely fine and I'm just being an miserable and unhelpful arse - sorry









---

But I'm not being a miserable arse about the built in sage grinder on this unit - it really is deeply frustrating


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

Thanks for all inputs, especially from someone with experience of the sage

I guess on a coffee machine scale of one to ten, i'm on minus three with my old pre-ground coffee, in my pressurised delonghi. people with equipment up in the 7-8 levels wouldn't be impressed by something at 4-5, a bit like the ferrari owners club rating a bmw, and saying it's slow and doesn't handle well - of course to someone like me, crawling through cow dung, a bmw sounds like heaven!

my research will continue


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Don't worry about anything. I'd say the vast majority on here are towards the lower end of the spectrum gear wise.

As recommended at the beginning of the thread a used super jolly (budget about £200) and an Oscar (think there is one for sale for about £400 just now).

Or...if you like you could save the pennies and get a cheaper espresso machine. Rancilio Silvia, even a Gaggia Classic? It will still be a big step up from your current setup.


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

I understand that a Silvia or Classic is way better than my current stuff, but they don't seem to come close to the Sage for features. Preinfusion and PID temperature control. Pity they don't make it without the grinder.


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## jimbocz (Jun 5, 2015)

The Sage Duo Temp has pre infusion and PID. You can choose your own grinder.


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

Yes I looked at the Duo Temp, which is £200 less than the Barista express, but it lacks a lot of the features;

No temperature adjustability

No pressure gauge

No 3 way valve

No programmable buttons

and of course no grinder, so it seems to me its a lot less machine.

The ideal one would be the Infuser, but Breville have decided not to let Heston 'design' that one for some reason.


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## jakebyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

The temperature adjustability is probably a feature that you will never use. Not until you have all the other aspects of making the 'perfect' espresso down. By that point you'll probably have caught upgraditus and have a dual boiler or similar anyway.

The pressure gauge is only a guideline anyway, and you'll get a much better shot my measuring your weights in and out against time, rather than relying on the gauge to tell you when something is good/bad. This again goes for the programmable buttons. The ease of use is great, but a simple set of .1g scales will have you up and running in no time.

The 3 way valve would be nice, but its not a neccessity.

Its 99% sure that you'll be pulling better shots quicker with a DT paired with a SJ or Mignon for example, than with the BE.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The question mark over the whole Sage range, is how long will it last before it breaks? They have a lot of electronic stuff and if I owned one, every time I switched it on outside of the guarantee period, I would be crossing my fingers.


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

again thanks for all the inputs









The warranty will be ok, if it's lakeland.

Maybe I now need to start a 'why not buy a duo temp' thread


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## jimbocz (Jun 5, 2015)

I've had a duo temp for a few weeks and I've never thought twice about any of those things. The machine seems to adjust the temperature just fine. Unless I could actually change the pressure, what's the point of a gauge?

I am curious about a 3 way valve, what would that give me?

The downsides to me about the duo temp are the tiny drip tray that fills up quickly and leaks into the back of the machine, the odd sized portafilter that limits aftermarket options, and the light and cheap feeling tamper.

Other than those complaints, I'm happy. It steams fine, has a good milk jug and I'm enjoying the coffee I make most of the time.


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

3 way valve releases the pressure in the portafilter when the pump stops, so you don't get splatter and have a drier puck. it's a good thing.

Pressure gauge isn't so much for adjusting the pump pressure, but checking grind and tamp are correct. and looks good.

It won't be many coffees a day, so drip tray not an issue.

likewise the odd size portafilter, only an issue if i buy a better tamper?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I road tested one of these a year so ago. I had had a Quickmill Silvano just prior to this

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/quik-mill-silvano-espresso-machine-2025.html

I found the QM a more pleasurable machine than the Sage but that might be because it follows a traditional build using stainless steel. It has a small boiler which heats up very quickly, steams for ages using a thermoblock and has a PID.

I should really caveat that, with the fact that there was remarkably little wrong with the Sage. It did everything asked of it. I disliked the odd sized pf and the tamper is a joke. I guess it all depends exactly what you want from a machine. It is hard for a purist to accept that for some people, a B2C is absolutely right. Also, if you want to learn the craft and skills to make a fantastic cuppa, then you can achieve this on a reasonably modest machine and grinder. Your best bet, is to go to John Lewis and have a play. If you can get to Northampton, then visit Bellabarista who have the QM and other similar priced machines.

The main thing, is to buy what you want, not what someone else wants!


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

very wise advice









I guess making coffee is much like taking a photograph. a cheap fully automatic, or a phone camera will probably take an 'ok' photo a lot of the time. A proper SLR can take far better photographs, if it is used properly, but can also produce absolute rubbish. However once set up properly, it will then take several photos at a time, that are equally good. Or you can use a film camera, external light meter, and be entirely manual.

I have an SLR camera, and I'd like a SLR coffee machine









I fully understand how there can be great satisfaction making a better coffee than the machine should be able to do, by temperature surfing, modding, etc. I'd rather have a machine that can repeatedly make good coffee if I set it up right.

A few weeks on here researching could prevent many months of frustration and disappointment.


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

I just bought a Rancillio Rocky, so the BE is off the list. Wonder how good it will make the Delonghi?


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