# First properly fresh beans in my espresso machine



## ValeTudoGuy (Aug 20, 2018)

After having my machine for a few days and practicing on Lavazza Rossa beans, with what I thought was decent results... Thick dark extraction, very aromatic but zero crema.

Today I went to my local roaster Exchange Coffee in Clitheroe. Picking up some of their 1849 Espresso and Brazil Ipanema Yellow Bourbon, both roasted last Friday (14th)

I have just cracked open the 1849 and ground 14g in my Mazzer Super Jolly. First impressions on a 35g extraction is it's night and day with the Lavazza.... It actually makes the Lavazza taste burned in comparison. I taste some pretty bright flavours and can really pick out the nuts and caramel they talk about.... Not so much the chocolate though.

Im getting a little crema but not as much as I want, though im still playing around with tamping having only picked up a proper tamper today (Motta flat base)

It's made me pretty excited though in anticipation of the quality of drink I'm hopeful of soon being able to make at home with practice.


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## ValeTudoGuy (Aug 20, 2018)

Update, I have slightly reduced grind size.. Probably less than a CM turn towards the burrs on the Super Jolly.

I also tamped a little harder but with the same 15gr of 1849. Same extraction by weight which took longer. Which I should have timed but didn't doh!

Still what I would call a good level of extraction, about the same crema (I WANT MORE!!!!).

The flavour has changed drastically, much deeper and I want to say richer. More silky mouthfeel and I think I can taste dark chocolate with the caramel and only a little nuts.

Main take away is the proper tamper is a huge improvement and I can get a much more even tamp.

Minute changes in grind size make much more difference than I expected, although thats very unscientific because I tamped harder.... Damn, shouldnt have changed two things at once. Not sure why im not getting as much crema as I want, but the coffee is tasty none the less.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Fresh coffee makes a big difference to drinking stale coffee. Especially in a good espresso machine, although I have no idea of the machine you have currently.


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## ValeTudoGuy (Aug 20, 2018)

My machine is a Fracino Piccino


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## ValeTudoGuy (Aug 20, 2018)

Update 2: today I timed my extraction and I'm nowhere near 30 seconds. Im at about 16. Im clearly doing something wrong.

I also tried making the grinds a touch finer and im pretty sure they are now too fine. I would almost compare them to Turkish, so I need to adjust back up.


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## ValeTudoGuy (Aug 20, 2018)

Update 2.1: I went up to 18g grounds everything else the same and I now have plenty of Crema and a 25 second pull.

18g in and 55 out, is 55 output a little much or ok? Coffee tastes very good to me.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

ValeTudoGuy said:


> Update 2.1: I went up to 18g grounds everything else the same and I now have plenty of Crema and a 25 second pull.
> 
> 18g in and 55 out, is 55 output a little much or ok? Coffee tastes very good to me.


If it tastes good to you that is the main thing. The best thing to do is to try variations time and ratio.

What basket are you putting 18g in ? I ask as you may be overloading. This has a similar effect to grinding finer but ................................

John

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ValeTudoGuy said:


> My machine is a Fracino Piccino


Just be aware with the Picino your extraction temp can be as little as 83C-84 to 91-92C, depending on the heating element cycle. ideally you want to catch it at the top of the cycle or it will be too cool. This is so important because it only "just" gets hot enough at 91-92 and most of my shots get pulled in the 93-94 range. Overly cool brew temperatures will give thin pale crema and not so much of it....flavours will not be extracted properly. Unless you are temperature surfing, this is a definite risk and source of inconsistency. The issue with the Piccino is you cannot tell which boiler is heating unless you use a wattmeter and look for the power consumption without the LED being lit (sadly the lit LED is steam boiler heating element on)...in this way you know the brew boiler is heating..

Also definitely allow the machine to warm up properly before pulling shots (30 minutes) and give at least 30s to 1 minute between shots.!!


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## ValeTudoGuy (Aug 20, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> Just be aware with the Picino your extraction temp can be as little as 83C-84 to 91-92C, depending on the heating element cycle. ideally you want to catch it at the top of the cycle or it will be too cool. This is so important because it only "just" gets hot enough at 91-92 and most of my shots get pulled in the 93-94 range. Overly cool brew temperatures will give thin pale crema and not so much of it....flavours will not be extracted properly. Unless you are temperature surfing, this is a definite risk and source of inconsistency. The issue with the Piccino is you cannot tell which boiler is heating unless you use a wattmeter and look for the power consumption without the LED being lit (sadly the lit LED is steam boiler heating element on)...in this way you know the brew boiler is heating..
> 
> Also definitely allow the machine to warm up properly before pulling shots (30 minutes) and give at least 30s to 1 minute between shots.!!


Thanks for this most informative of posts, I think you have possibly hit the nail on the head. I have been turning the machine on and probably only waiting for 10-15 minutes. When I tried the 18g extraction the machine had been on for probably 40 minutes. Its definately getting more than 1 minute between brews though.

Again thank you, I will start my trials again but this time give the machine a more thorough warming period.


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## ValeTudoGuy (Aug 20, 2018)

ajohn said:


> If it tastes good to you that is the main thing. The best thing to do is to try variations time and ratio.
> 
> What basket are you putting 18g in ? I ask as you may be overloading. This has a similar effect to grinding finer but ................................
> 
> ...


It's the Fracino double filter


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I found that 20mins with the portafilter in was ok for heat up. It goes something like boilers up in about 3min, grouphead at about 15 and portafilter ok at 20min. That's how I used the machine rather than leaving it on. Only making drinks for myself too.

Then brief flush through the portafilter. Remove portafilter, grind and add etc then fit and pull the shot. No signs of a temp surfing effect but their probably will be when leaving on or making drinks on the trot but a flush each time leaving an empty portafilter in may well help.

Not so sure about your comments on temperatures Dave. Mine's very recent.









PIC166 is 90C +/- 3C and 166A is 95C. From it's behaviour I'd say mine has the 95C fitted.

If somebody does want to show when the brew boiler is heating the simplest option would be to fit something like this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Neon-Indicator-240-V-Red-6-4-mm-Round-with-Flat-Top/391339164783?epid=1639927063&hash=item5b1da1c46f:g:GJEAAOxyCepSa7wN

and just connect it to the brew heater element.







6.4mm are usually more expensive but I don't like big holes or indicators.

John

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The machines I tested were also very recent (just over a year ago) .....I measured temperatures carefully with my equipment, so would disagree with your finding about warm up times. I also know they produce shots on the cooler not warm side and without surfing can be as low as 82 or 83C!

I don't expect to change your views, but I am hoping to help the other guy on the thread with the problems.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

ValeTudoGuy said:


> It's the Fracino double filter


I'd have thought that could be rather high. Some people check by filling, tamping, placing a coin on top and then fitting and removing the portafilter. From memory as I didn't do that a 1p coin should be suitable leaving scarcely any impression at all. It ensures that the grinds have room to expand. It's another thing to vary a bit. Too low usually results in very muddy pucks. Too much and they can be rock solid and very hard to knock out. That end of things can also weaken what comes out so worth checking but within reason doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it.

John

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## ValeTudoGuy (Aug 20, 2018)

ajohn said:


> I'd have thought that could be rather high. Some people check by filling, tamping, placing a coin on top and then fitting and removing the portafilter. From memory as I didn't do that a 1p coin should be suitable leaving scarcely any impression at all. It ensures that the grinds have room to expand. It's another thing to vary a bit. Too low usually results in very muddy pucks. Too much and they can be rock solid and very hard to knock out. That end of things can also weaken what comes out so worth checking but within reason doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Interesting, I will try this. I certainly did notice a dryer more easy to knock puck at 18g compared to 15g. However it did seem a little high in the filter.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> The machines I tested were also very recent (just over a year ago) .....I measured temperatures carefully with my equipment, so would disagree with your finding about warm up times. I also know they produce shots on the cooler not warm side and without surfing can be as low as 82 or 83C!
> 
> I don't expect to change your views, but I am hoping to help the other guy on the thread with the problems.


 @DavecUK

Is this how you measured it with the same sort of set up?

https://www.home-barista.com/reviews/wbc-procedure-for-measurement-of-brewing-water-temperature-t516.html

For future ref in case I ever find the need to do it.







As usual I'd probably change it a bit. Probably make it suitable for use with a bottomless portafilter and am not sure that the comments on themocouples are up to date.

John

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

No, I didn't do it that way


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## ValeTudoGuy (Aug 20, 2018)

Update 3: I went back to 15g with a 40 minute warm up. I now have crema at 15g and this time the extraction was 17 seconds and gave a 36g end result.

I think somewhere between 15-18g is my sweet spot.

Thanks for all the help, I feel like im getting somewhere.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ValeTudoGuy said:


> Update 3: I went back to 15g with a 40 minute warm up. I now have crema at 15g and this time the extraction was 17 seconds and gave a 36g end result.
> 
> I think somewhere between 15-18g is my sweet spot.
> 
> Thanks for all the help, I feel like im getting somewhere.


Grind finer


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Fix your dose, grind finer.


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## ValeTudoGuy (Aug 20, 2018)

Update 3.1: Finer grind.... Too fine, I think. 15g in 26g out in 45 seconds. Good crema but a shot of rocket fuel... Way too potent for my regular cup. Did I just make a Ristretto?

Time to back off the grind a touch I think. Thanks again for the help I feel I'm close.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> No, I didn't do it that way


:Whoops I thought I had read more about how you do it



> I do state where in some ,of my reviews. I measure it with a fast acting thermocouple about *4 mm inside a simulated coffee puck* which *saturates* and restricts flow to normal espresso flow rates, *without the use of valves or other devices*. It's a little like a scace II, but something I designed over 11-12years ago to check the brew temperature of prosumer espresso machines I was testing. I designed it, because at the time there was nothing on the market and I wanted a more accurate idea of what the temperature was really doing.


John

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## ValeTudoGuy (Aug 20, 2018)

Update 4: Today I made a really good coffee.

Adjusted the grind ever so slightly, ran some heat through the filter and warmed the cup with it.

Waited a couple mins as I ground beans etc. Dried filter filled with 15g pulled a 37g drink in 32 seconds.

Proper crema and all the flavours showing through well.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ajohn said:


> :Whoops I thought I had read more about how you do it
> 
> John
> 
> -


Yes, I do it different and I think better than the SCAA rules quote, but then I did think up the method long before anyone started pontificating. I think I started doing it almost 15 years ago....when I started testing and realised no one was properly testing temperatures of these machines. I was quite shocked to find the variances as well as machines that wouldn't easily give a good brew temperature. In the user guides I wrote I started putting in specific and different flush volumes for the various machines as well as wait times etc.. to try and help users be at the 93/94C ballpark I had decided was best. Probably people thought I was pulling the numbers out of my arse because I never disclosed exactly what I was using or how I did it. There were two reasons for this, arguments from people about it being wrong and I did wonder about making a product out of it (but decided not to).

When you showed me the detail of the SCAA "stuff", the thing was overwhelming, but significantly lacked the more important details of temperature testing. So lots of writing, or padding, but unfortunately some very serious omissions in test procedures...


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