# Help me, PLEASE :-)



## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

Please Help!

I have been playing with the my new grinder & coffee machines and i cannot get a decent shot out of them! Every one tastes FOUL. I am running out of money with the amount of beans i am wasting!

I have the Gran Macinino professionale Grinder, Its set on the finest setting. I wish it would go finer but was told that it should go far enough to stop flow but i can't get it to that point?

The coffee machines are both Gaggia babies (one is a class the other a dose). I have just cleaned, descaled and replaced gaskets on both machines.

I have treid different beans, different grind settings, even pre ground and in desperation i nipped to the shop and tried pods!, nothing appears to work? (i was shocked at the washing up foam that came out with the pod!!!!

I have tamped lightly, tamped medium, tamped hard, and as then as hard as i can without breaking the portafilter handle!!

I have tried warming the machine up for a few minutes, warming up for ages, running steam wand first, running steam wand during, etc..etc..

I have tried the double basket (non pressurised), the single basket, the pressurised single basket, the pod basket, I even tried that silly little nipple and pressurised basket that is supposed to make a foam crema?!

I get different results out of both machines and no matter what i do its not fit to drink.

I ran a flow test by pulling water through for a fixed time and the baby class has a slightly higher flow rate than the dose, but its marginal. I havent checked the pressure but then it has the plastic safety valve so non adjustable anyway! (without buying and installing OPV, but the cost of that means i might as well go buy a classic!)

I got my laser gun thermometer out and checked the brew head temperatures, i checked the boiler temperatures, i checked the water temperature as it came through into the shot glass.... i even checked my own temperature by this point!!!!!!!!!

Does anyone live near to J40 on the M1, west yorkshire, and know how to get a baby to make decent shots? Are you willing to give me an hour of your time to help me before i jump off a bridge with frustration??

I would love someone to use my machine and make a nice shot, show me where i am going wrong... I would then know whether to bin the machines or to bin the operator 

I have another couple of machines in the house, a built in one, i think its crap but it works, and an old Bodum Granos and i can make a really nice shots and perfect microfoam with both of them.... but not a sign in hell of me doing it with the gaggia's so far??????????? Why why why why why why? ? ? ? ? ?


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

How many grammes of coffee are you dosing with ?

How much coffee are you extracting from the beans ?

How long is it taking to extract the coffee ?

My coffee had a sour edge to it with my previous grinder - not undrinkable but not desirable. Thats not to say that its your grinder in this case.

I feel your frustration


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## Coffedrinker (Jan 6, 2013)

Just thinking about eliminating variables, and though I live over the Pennines from you, you'd be more than welcome to bring your grinder over and see if we can good a good shot out of the Cherub. That might eliminate the grinder as your problem??


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

Good questions...

I have not weighed the coffee but when tamped down hard, i have tried it both half way up the double basket and 3/4 way up. I can try weighing what i put in tonight after work and let you know.

I have extracted various amounts to see if that makes a difference. I have used the double basket mostly, filled about 3/4 way up after being tamped down and i have then pulled both 1oz shots, 2oz shots and some in between. The last few i stopped looking at the glass and just stopped when i saw the coffee start to weaken out of the portafilter and that was pretty much just about 1.8oz mark.

With the finest grind i can get out of the grinder, and tamped really hard into the double basket, about 3/4 filled. It takes around 24 seconds to get a 2oz shot from the baby dose but the first few seconds nothing comes out... and about 19 seconds for the baby class.

With a pod, in the pressurised basket and crema nipple in place, it takes about 8 seconds to get a 2oz shot of dishwater foam!

Its interesting you mention the grinder being the issue on yours.. I never thought that would be an issue other than the difference in how course.fine it can grind the coffee? What issue might i have with the grinder?



working dog said:


> How many grammes of coffee are you dosing with ?
> 
> How much coffee are you extracting from the beans ?
> 
> ...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

As pointed out weighing in your dose will remove one variable , people can then advise you on grind . Don't worry about coffee not coming out for a few seconds this is normal ! Try keep the variables then same ( basket , dose , bean, grind ) note them down . Pull a shot , see how much comes out in what time , note it. Taste it ! Bitter? Sour ? Nice ? Then bring all that back here , and people way more experienced than me can help with what to change .


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

I suspect that it was the consistency of the grind that was the difference between my old and new grinder. I am new to this game so could be talking rubbish.

It sounds like your grind may be too course and you are compensating for this by tamping hard to get your shot to pull in 24 seconds. I've taken the guidance from this forum and aim to pour 29g from 18g of coffee in 30 seconds which gives me a decent drink.


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

Just a thought... should i be timing from the start of the buttons being pressed, or from the start of when the first drip of espresso starts to fall from the portafilter?

And if i put 18g of grind in the double basket, when i attach the portafilter it touches the shower (i can see imprints on the top of the puck).. Is this ok? or should there be a gap between the shower and the grind?

Thanks


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

This I know is small consolation but although I'm just off Junc 39 I am out of the area until mid August. Maybe we could get together then if you're still in need.

If you PM me around that time we could arrange something.

ian


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Time from when you flick the switch not when pouring ,


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

arjxh56 said:


> Just a thought... should i be timing from the start of the buttons being pressed, or from the start of when the first drip of espresso starts to fall from the portafilter?
> 
> And if i put 18g of grind in the double basket, when i attach the portafilter it touches the shower (i can see imprints on the top of the puck).. Is this ok? or should there be a gap between the shower and the grind?
> 
> Thanks


HOw i do it, time from brew switch pressed, grinds touching screen is pretty normal in my my experience but that could be wrong.


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

So a little more experimenting has led to this........

1st round of tests:

* 18g of grind on the finest setting

* Tamped very hard (grind was touching the shower)

* 1st test - 1floz = 39sec

* 2nd test - 2floz = 67sec

* What did i see.... Slow dripping of black watery consistancy but only from one side of the portafilter, very little crema if at all?

* Puck was dry, hard and looked pretty undisturbed

2nd round of tests:

* 14g of grind on the finest setting

* Tamped very hard (grind not touching shower this time)

* 1st test - 1floz = 17 sec

* 2nd test - 2f oz = 33sec

* What did i see.... black watery flow from boths sides of the portafilter, no crema as such, similar to above in looks.

* Puck had water left on top and was pretty sludgy and surface was disturbed.

What i cannot understand is that on the you tube clips i see a very rich, thick, creamy, velvety, shot... slowly settling after a few seconds to seperate the crema... in most cases around 25% ratio of crema, sometimes more. My test above were watery, (even when slow), no crema, no rich creamy texture and after settling had at the very most a 1mm separation of what i wouldnt really call Crema?

The puck in the first test looked much more normal but then it was pressed up against the shower so couldnt have had room for any water to sit on it or disturb it in any way. Not sure if this is correct?

The taste of all of them were slightly different, none of them pleasant, all of them quite watery.

I am thinking the next step is to start again with 18g of grind, turn the grinder a couple of notches more course, and repeat the above? Try and reduce the first test down to about half the pouring time by adjusting the grind... Good plan do you think?


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

What coffee is it?

Don't tamp so hard. There's really no need. Just one tamp straight down. No messing about.

What grinder is it you're using where it needs to be on finest?

What basket do you have in your portafilter?

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## jonners (Apr 26, 2013)

What beans are you using? Are they freshly roasted, no more than a few weeks old?


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

chimpsinties said:


> What coffee is it?
> 
> Don't tamp so hard. There's really no need. Just one tamp straight down. No messing about.
> 
> ...


I purchased the beans today, Lavazza Espresso in a black bag. Never tried them before but I ran out testing earlier today so it was the only ones in the local shop!

Grinder is a Isomac Gran Macinino professional.

The basket is a standard double basket for the gaggia baby (non pressurised)


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Try getting some freshly roasted beans. Look for a roasted on date recorded on the pack. You've a much better chance of getting good crema from nice fresh beans. There's plenty of online companies that roast and send out beans shortly after roasting if you can't find any in the shops locally.

When I was using the standard double in my gaggia I don't think I could fit 18g in. It's been a while since I've used it so can't recall the exact amounts but suspect it was 16g.


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

Neill said:


> Try getting some freshly roasted beans. Look for a roasted on date recorded on the pack. You've a much better chance of getting good crema from nice fresh beans. There's plenty of online companies that roast and send out beans shortly after roasting if you can't find any in the shops locally.
> 
> When I was using the standard double in my gaggia I don't think I could fit 18g in. It's been a while since I've used it so can't recall the exact amounts but suspect it was 16g.


I cannot see a roasted date on the pack, it just gives a best before date of Sept 2014.


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

I would try the beans in one of the other machines but they have pressurised baskets on them so its not really a true comparison!


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

arjxh56 said:


> I cannot see a roasted date on the pack, it just gives a best before date of Sept 2014.


Try getting some beans that are only 1-2 weeks after roasting. Most lavazza type beans have been roasted quite a while before they hit supermarket shelves.


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

Neill said:


> Try getting some beans that are only 1-2 weeks after roasting. Most lavazza type beans have been roasted quite a while before they hit supermarket shelves.


OK, I will order some from the internet. Thanks

I will also try the 16g of coffee and tamp slighty less to see if that helps?


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

for supermarket beans pressurised basket is where you get the crema, are you by any chance using a pressurised basket but without the little insert in the hole in the portafilter?##Photos will help


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

HDAV said:


> for supermarket beans pressurised basket is where you get the crema, are you by any chance using a pressurised basket but without the little insert in the hole in the portafilter?##Photos will help


No, im not using the crema device or the pressurised basket. For the last 8hrs of testing i have been using the non pressurised, standard double basket.

I did try the crema device and pressurised basket earlier in the day but I still got crap results! I tried the pressurised basket without the crema device and then needed a bath, along with everything within 10ft radius of the machine!!!


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

arjxh56 said:


> I did try the crema device and pressurised basket earlier in the day but I still got crap results! I tried the pressurised basket without the crema device and then needed a bath, along with everything within 10ft radius of the machine!!!













LOL............ hmm Photos of some ground coffee a good start
​


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

Neill said:


> Try getting some freshly roasted beans. Look for a roasted on date recorded on the pack. You've a much better chance of getting good crema from nice fresh beans. There's plenty of online companies that roast and send out beans shortly after roasting if you can't find any in the shops locally.


 I will order some Brazil Espresso Perfetio from Has bean Coffee as people on here appear to approve of the supplier? I couldnt see anything on the site about roasting dates but i guess they wont send me something as old as the supermarkets???


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

arjxh56 said:


> I will order some Brazil Espresso Perfetio from Has bean Coffee as people on here appear to approve of the supplier? I couldnt see anything on the site about roasting dates but i guess they wont send me something as old as the supermarkets???


Hasbean is a good place to start. Plenty of choice and they roast the day they are sent so nice and fresh. They'll have the roast date on the pack when they arrive. I'm sure there's plenty of other suggestions for roasters on the forum but I regularly use hasbean and happy with most beans.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Rave Italian Job from amazon comes in at about £12 for 1kg and its ruddy lovely.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

Thanks all ... I have to log out now but will be back online tomorrow and will continue to test, test, test in the hope that i can get a decent shot from these machines before the week is out


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

chimpsinties said:


> Rave Italian Job from amazon comes in at about £12 for 1kg and its ruddy lovely.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


It has some robusta in it doesn't it? That'll give even more crema! Might have to try it myself. Fairly new to the forum but rave seem popular here so think I'll have to give them a go. Not so keen on darker roasts so maybe Italian job isn't for me but I'll maybe try one of their other blends.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

I keep Rave IJ in the house now for lattes for family and friends. Its one the best value for money beans via amazon. No bitterness or sourness just great Italian coffee. Perfect after dinner espresso as well


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

16g dose tends to work well (and be quite forgiving with the standard gaggia basket.

I'd also agree with you using fresh beans if you can get them.

it's amazingly frustrating, it took me an age to get it right. Stay with it! Theres lots of support on the forum. Let us know how you get on.

Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Any reason to buy from amazon and not direct? http://www.ravecoffee.co.uk/#/buy-coffee-online/4552834872


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

You get 1kg insted of 908g. Plus i like 1 click buy via amazon


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Yeah cos if you're just buying 1kg you don't qualify for free postage from the site. From amazon its £9 per kg with £2.70 postage. Bargain! Plus you actually get 1kg and not 908g like from the site.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

glevum said:


> You get 1kg insted of 908g. Plus i like 1 click buy via amazon


Also, Rave are a great roaster and sell lovely coffee (I just took an order this morning) but by god their website is terrible!


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Wish they had an android app like Has bean


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

Ordered Italian Job from them ... i will resume testing when the new beans arrive


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

autopilot said:


> but by god their website is terrible!


Thats for sure. Rob at Rave is so very aware of this problem, very mac unfriendly in particular.

They have a new website & almost ready to push the button on that. I've seen it and it looks excellent


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

any signs of an android app?


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## oop north (Jun 23, 2013)

I think it might be your grinder not grinding finely enough - I have the same grinder (Isomac Gran Mancinino, not sure if "professional" though!) and I am about to pass it on to a friend, replacing with a Mazzer SJ from coffeechap (hopefully arriving tomorrow).

I have been using for aeropress last 15 months with good results (and filter machines previous 7 years or so) but have tried a couple of times with a Presso manual espresso thing (rather disastrously). It is only from having been on here the last few days that I have begun to realise that the Isomac is probably not grinding finely enough... but then realised that is confirmed by grinding some for friends who then reported no problem using in their filter machines (despite me grinding at the finest level possible, forgetting to make coarser) and coffeechap's advice that the Isomac needs mods to allow to grind very finely, plus it's a nightmare to dial in (not that I have any experience of that)


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

oop north said:


> coffeechap's advice that the Isomac needs mods to allow to grind very finely, plus it's a nightmare to dial in (not that I have any experience of that)


Hi, You mention above that there are some mods... Do you have any info on this or know where i could look to find it? Many Thanks


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## oop north (Jun 23, 2013)

No, only mentioned by coffeechap in passing in a pm. Sorry


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

Done a load more testing... Gone through another bag of beans and have blinding headache with all of the shots i am testing!

Dont spit at me, but I also went to costa and asked them to grind me a cup of their fresh beans on the grinder setting they use in the shop. I wanted to just compare the grind to what i was getting from my own grinder. I also orderd an espresso so that i could time it and compare what it looked like coming out and when it was sat in the cup 'vs' what it did in my machine!

I used the costa grind in my baby and the results were better than i had been getting before. It was coming out a little faster and a little more watery than in the costa machine, but not a massive difference.

It made a 2floz shot in around 32sec and it had a much better crema than i was previously getting but it still wasnt perfect. Maybe this was down to the bean? They were much more oily than the Lavazza ones?

The taste from my baby machine was more bitter and it was also quite a bit hotter.. This makes me think maybe my machine is running too high on pressure and maybe too hot as well?

From all the testing this afternoon my assumptions are......

I think a fresh bean would improve the crema.

My machine may be a little high on pressure but i cannot alter that with my model having a non adjustable safety valve rather than the classic OPV.

My machine could be running a little hot but without a PID im not sure i can change that either? I will try pulling a shot before the boiler ready light comes on and see what it tastes like.

The grind setting i have dialled in i think is very close now its around 30 sec... although I would still like to try a finer grind and see if that counters the extra pressure i think my machine has? Maybe its time to bastardise it and strip and remove the end stop from the adjustment wheel.

My fresh beans are due tomorrow from Rave... hope this puts a smile on my face 

I have also ordered a 'click' tamper which will arrive tomorrow too.. This should solve the variables in bean and tamping pressure at least!

I have PM'd coffeechap to try and find out about an alternative grinder modification.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Well your dedicated, most people would have given up long ago...............


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

arjxh56 said:


> My machine could be running a little hot but without a PID im not sure i can change that either? I will try pulling a shot before the boiler ready light comes on ...


One approach you could try is to creep up to the thermostat's switch-off temperature to avoid the temperature over-shooting too much. I used to use this technique on a Silvia V2 before adding a PID, and had a good hit rate, better than the luck I ever had with published temp-surfing methods. That's not to say it will definitely work on the Baby, but there's a good chance it will be better if you think it is currently running too hot.

So basically allow the machine to warm up for half an hour as usual. When the heater next comes on, count around six seconds, then cut the power either with the on-off switch or at the wall socket.

Count off 30 seconds, then switch power back on for another 6 seconds.

Keep doing this until the heater light switches off, then brew your shot.

Try brewing with, and without, a brief 1-2 second flush before locking in the PF.


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

Grinder modification done. I can grind much finer now but it doesnt appear to have made any visual improvement to the crema or the shot, other than it pours out much slower. At one stage i was getting tiny bits of grind in the bottom of the espresso so i think i went a little too fine and they were coming through the basket?

I do have one question though... on some of the shots the crema is more of a very thin slick on the top and it appears to curdle like bad milk? Why would this happen?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hi how fresh and what type of beans are you using ?


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## TheDude (May 11, 2013)

There is a free dowloadable book/pdf that you can read that describe the process of brewing a cup of espresso.

http://www.hasblog.co.uk/free-espresso-training-book

I think it will help you to get started.


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

arjxh56 said:


> I do have one question though... on some of the shots the crema is more of a very thin slick on the top and it appears to curdle like bad milk? Why would this happen?


Sometimes it splits and the oil separates if you over extract or brew at too high a temp.

You need to be very consistent and methodical when setting up a grinder and machine for espresso to get it right.


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

So i ran out of beans again and had to open the bag of Rave Italian Job that arrived in the post this morning.... I was told to let it sit for a few days as they were only roasted on Wednesday but i had nothing else left to grind and test with so i thought sod it! ...

I think i have just wasted 2 days of my life and quite a few quid trying to get Sh** beans to make good coffee!

I had to back the grinder off 4 stops, tamp about half the pressure, but the last 2 shots have just purrrrred like a pussy cat 

I am tempted to try a grind a little more course as the extraction time is still a little too long but the difference in quality of shot and Crema is amazing!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

sorry i never got back to you, glad you are now seeing great results in the cup, it is amazing what great beans will do, but the mods on the grinder will cetainly help with other beans that need a finer grind


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Good to hear you're getting there with new beans. It's amazing the difference fresh coffee makes.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

I found it handy keeping supermarket beans in the house.....serve unwanted guests a cup and they soon want to leave with their rancid ash breath.


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

glevum said:


> I found it handy keeping supermarket beans in the house.....serve unwanted guests a cup and they soon want to leave with their rancid ash breath.


Good tip.. I like it


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

I have had a number of shots out of the machine since opening the new Rave italian job beans yesterday.. I have continued to tweek and made the grind a little more course so the extraction time is roughly 30sec and i am getting a lovely tiger striped rich shot every time ... I am a happy bunny. 

I have tried the temp surfing and various ways of tweeking the brew temp and i have now found the best being to let the machine warm up, wait for the light to go out and immediately hit the button.. I guess this is pulling the shot at the lowest temp the thermostats will allow?

Next job is to swap the rubbish steam wand. I have placed my order this morning. In the mean time I have been steaming milk with my other machine as the baby standard wand just produces washing up foam 

THanks for everyones help getting to this point.. Much appreciated.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

It is great to see the revelation that using fresh beans produces in everyone. It's surprising how much of a hard sell it is sometimes though. When you think about it, it's basically 98% of the struggle on the route to decent coffee. Crap in - Crap out







The next hardest battle is convincing people they need a decent grinder of course


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

chimpsinties said:


> It is great to see the revelation that using fresh beans produces in everyone. It's surprising how much of a hard sell it is sometimes though. When you think about it, it's basically 98% of the struggle on the route to decent coffee. Crap in - Crap out
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am not sure whether my grinder is classed as good or bad, it has mixed reviews i think? Its certainly doing a decent job (in my mind) now that i have adjusted it correctly? Although its a little slower than some, and the grinds do hang inside the spout a bit, but a knock sends the stragglers into the portafilter!

I would always be willing to let someone grind a shot on thier machine, along side a shot from mine, and see what the difference is?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Where about are u?


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Where about are u?


1/2 mile from J40 M1


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Apologies , being a non driver that means absolutely nothing to me . Wakefield?


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## arjxh56 (Jun 29, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Apologies , being a non driver that means absolutely nothing to me . Wakefield?


Ossett, just the other side of the motorway to Wakefield.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I pretty sure there are some members near to you lets se if they poke there heads above the parapet. I am in Lancaster about an hour and half away , fair drive for a coffee. But if your ever up here after I get my new toy your more than welcome .


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## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

I've just got a delivery of rave Italian job coffee in too. I found I had to go with quite a course grind but the results kicked the crema out of the rubbish supermarket beans I had previously bought. I'm very new at making espresso at home, but I guess I learnt this one the hard way. There's no way I'll be buying supermarket beans again. Also, the Italian job is superb value.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

c_squared said:


> I've just got a delivery of rave Italian job coffee in too. I found I had to go with quite a course grind but the results kicked the crema out of the rubbish supermarket beans I had previously bought. I'm very new at making espresso at home, but I guess I learnt this one the hard way. There's no way I'll be buying supermarket beans again. Also, the Italian job is superb value.


Thats great to know that your getting results you want now. In the end the your getting better coffee now , and its a learning curve we all go through at some point !


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