# Where can you 'buy' a Niche Zero?



## Brook (Dec 30, 2020)

Only place I can find is on Indigogo, however on adding to cart I get this:



> *Crowdfunding is not shopping*
> 
> Your donation is a way to support a project but does not guarantee that you will receive a perk.
> 
> *You may request a full refund from Indiegogo until January 09, 2021.* Any refunds after this date are the responsibility of the campaign owner, Martin Nicholson, at their discretion.


 I do not feel comfortable buying something only to be told I am not actually buying anything, and I certainly do not want to 'donate' £500 to anyone! Why is a company who has as far as I can tell sold almost £10M worth of product doing this? It doesn't instil confidence and seems like a way to avoid being held to account 😕


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## Chriss29 (Oct 21, 2020)

I massively agree, something just doesn't seem right to me.

Seems there's no doubt it's a good grinder but not worth the risk in my opinion.


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

If you are not happy with the t&c then just don't buy it, it's quite a simple black or white choice. I was, I did and I am now the owner of a very capable grinder as have thousands of others. It's not really a subject of debate.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Risk? Sorry, I'm not following. Everyone buys from there, that's the official channel. The only risk there was was when the funding campaign started and the product did not exist. Now, it does, it's mass produced, demand constant outweighs supply.

I agree if seems weird, and I'm sure Niche has their reasons why they haven't created an e-shop on their website rather than continuing with indiegogo.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

When I backed Niche, I accidentally donated the money with no product. James at Niche e-mailed me, suspecting I had made a mistake and changed my order to receive the grinder. I found that reassuring.

Also, there are other grinders out there that you can "buy". So it's not really a problem.


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

skylark said:


> If you are not happy with the t&c then just don't buy it, it's quite a simple black or white choice. I was, I did and I am now the owner of a very capable grinder as have thousands of others. It's not really a subject of debate.
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


Why shouldn't be? It's a forum where everyone can express their opinions. Am I wrong?


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Risk? Sorry, I'm not following. Everyone buys from there, that's the official channel. The only risk there was was when the funding campaign started and the product did not exist. Now, it does, it's mass produced, demand constant outweighs supply.
> 
> I agree if seems weird, and I'm sure Niche has their reasons why they haven't created an e-shop on their website rather than continuing with indiegogo.


Yes I agree but then the message you receive is not quite reassuring







.


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## Brook (Dec 30, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Risk? Sorry, I'm not following.


 Risk is clearly stated on the Indigogo site as per the quote in my post : "You may request a full refund from Indiegogo until January 09, 2021. Any refunds after this date are the responsibility of the campaign owner, Martin Nicholson, *at their discretion*."

It just feels very odd that a company would do this as it appears to be a way to absolve themselves of full responsibility. Delivery aside, what happens if the product develops a fault? Does this clause mean we have no proper legal recourse?

It's just seems very odd (underhand even) that a company that has sold £10M worth of goods is avoiding full responsibility of their products by using methods like this. IMO of course!



profesor_historia said:


> Why shouldn't be? It's a forum where everyone can express their opinions. Am I wrong?


 Thank you *profesor_historia. *


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## Chriss29 (Oct 21, 2020)

There is a risk in the transaction no doubt. That said there is a risk with every transaction unless you go into the shop and buy it there and then.

As we've seen in the last year any business can go under even if they're making sales.

They may have £10m in sales but millions in debt, who knows!

Entirely your choice.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

profesor_historia said:


> skylark said:
> 
> 
> > If you are not happy with the t&c then just don't buy it, it's quite a simple black or white choice. I was, I did and I am now the owner of a very capable grinder as have thousands of others. It's not really a subject of debate.
> ...


 The flip side of expressing your opinions is that people can refute them, with equally freely expressed opinions. Or, even better, real life experience. If you want to believe there's some kind of machiavellian scheme at play, there are much more entertaining sites & forums to visit.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I fully understand the worries but are they justified? Crowd Funding in usually associated from a risk perspective, of trying to get a product to the market. Niche have gone beyond that, a point upon which I think we can all agree. Whilst they use the funding site as a sales area then when you visit the page you see the warnings that have to be in place. I stress again, there is no risk. The grinder is not under development as it is the finished article. Every single owner has had to buy it in the same manner that you are contemplating, yet have you heard any dissatisfaction? Buy it and you will enjoy the benefits it brings, or do not buy it and sleep securely


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## Brook (Dec 30, 2020)

Chriss29 said:


> There is a risk in the transaction no doubt. That said there is a risk with every transaction unless you go into the shop and buy it there and then.


 There is significantly less risk if you buy normally without signing away your rights due to clauses like the one Indigogo is going to great effort to make obvious. I always buy with a credit card for example (as they are legally half liable for any purchases) however if that 'purchase' is classed as a 'donation' then I imagine you have ZERO legs to stand on.



Chriss29 said:


> They may have £10m in sales but millions in debt, who knows!


 Exactly!!


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## shaunlawler (Feb 7, 2014)

The perceived risk here is ill-founded.

Yes it's a bit weird that it's still an Indiegogo platform but if you pay the purchase price the grinder, you will either receive it or, if not, get a refund (although with the demand it's extremely unlikely this would happen).

The Niche is certainly worth the 'risk' in any event at their price point.


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## Brook (Dec 30, 2020)

dfk41 said:


> I fully understand the worries but are they justified? Crowd Funding in usually associated from a risk perspective, of trying to get a product to the market. Niche have gone beyond that, a point upon which I think we can all agree.


 I don't want to 'crowd fund' a grinder I just want to buy one and be protected under British law as I am with every other purchase I make - something that isn't the case with the Niche Zero.



shaunlawler said:


> The perceived risk here is ill-founded.


 No it is not unfounded at all. You are essentially at their mercy as, according to those terms the payment is considered a *donation not a purchase*. You have zero legal legs to stand on because of that clause.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Brook said:


> I don't want to 'crowd fund' a grinder I just want to buy one and be protected under British law as I am with every other purchase I make - something that isn't the case with the Niche Zero.


 Go on then.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

I do understand up to a point. It does seem a little odd to not have a 'proper' web shop for an established product. You can set up a Shopify store in an hour or two with zero outlay.

That said, they literally can't make them quick enough (or restricting supply is part of their marketing) either way their are clearly generating enough customers to sustain the model of selling through indiegogo.

I guess they feel if it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## InfamousTuba (Feb 5, 2020)

Brook said:


> It just feels very odd that a company would do this as it appears to be a way to absolve themselves of any responsibility. Delivery aside, what happens if the product develops a fault? Does this clause man we have no legal legs to stand on?


 If you go to the niche website they say that their product is guaranteed for one year: https://www.nichecoffee.co.uk/guarantee/

So any faults would be dealt with in the same way any product is.

I think emailing them directly might be the best way to find out why they use indiegogo, because speculating on a forum won't answer any questions


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## Brook (Dec 30, 2020)

InfamousTuba said:


> I think emailing them directly might be the best way to find out why they use indiegogo, because speculating on a forum won't answer any questions


 This is a great idea - I will do that and post their response in this thread. Thank you!


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## L2en (Jun 10, 2018)

I had doubts few years ago when I first came across Niche. But when I revisited grinder update needs this year I just went for it, I think it is established way beyond any doubt. But if you don't feel comfortable, then just find different grinder to buy.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Brook @Chriss29 from £10 million, please find me one example of an unhappy customer where things have gone wrong. Niche brought this grinder to the market with the assistance of @DavecUK and as such, the forum has been able to watch it all the way. I suggest that as new joiners, you take a couple of weeks reading through the Niche thread from the start


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## shaunlawler (Feb 7, 2014)

I had an issue with my Niche grinder back in September and needed a replacement.

Despite there been a backlog of orders being fulfilled for over 3 months at that time, James at Niche sent out a replacement to me the day after I emailed him and even arranged someone to pick up the faulty grinder a few days later from my house.

Top notch customer service and I would not hesitate in the slightest to deal with them again for future purposes.

Also, legally speaking (from a lawyers perspective here - take with a pinch of salt), there would be legal recourse to take if you sent money on the platform if you didn't receive the grinder OR a full refund. The worst that could happen is you didn't get the grinder and got your money back. But as I said, they have been extremely popular to date with no real issues at all and a lot of happy customers.

YMMV


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## Brook (Dec 30, 2020)

Ok I have emailed them, I will update you when they get back to me.

@dfk41, that's nice but it does not change the fact that if that clause can hold legal water, it would be classed as a donation and not a purchase. This means you have no recourse from your credit card company and possibly even legally via the courts. It's not a risk I am willing to take and it leaves a lot to be desired when companies try to use tactics like this to absolve themselves of responsibility - why not just sell the product like any other manufacturer or retailer, it's not difficult setting up an online shop.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

skylark said:


> If you are not happy with the t&c then just don't buy it, it's quite a simple black or white choice. I was, I did and I am now the owner of a very capable grinder as have thousands of others. It's not really a subject of debate.
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 To me this is the salient point. I don't believe you will easily find anyone with a negative view of the actual buying/support experience from Niche...well there might be some, because you can't please 100% of the people all the time. As@skylark said...if you are not happy, then don't buy it.



Brook said:


> I do not feel comfortable buying something only to be told I am not actually buying anything, and I certainly do not want to 'donate' £500 to anyone! Why is a company who has as far as I can tell sold almost £10M worth of product doing this? It doesn't instil confidence and seems like a way to avoid being held to account 😕


 Fair enough and I don't believe people will try to persuade you otherwise....just be prepared for others to hold quite a different opinion.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Brook said:


> @dfk41, that's nice but it does not change the fact that if that clause can hold legal water, it would be classed as a donation and not a purchase. This means you have no recourse from your credit card company and possibly even legally via the courts. It's not a risk I am willing to take and it leaves a lot to be desired when companies try to use tactics like this to absolve themselves of responsibility


 You have said all this already. We heard the first time.


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## jscott (Jun 25, 2019)

Would also like to add my excellent experience in dealing with Niche:

In July I had a small issue with my grinder so I emailed James at Niche he sent a brand new grinder the next day to test alongside mine. Once I tested them both side by side over a couple of days and found that the new one was more consistent, they let me keep the brand new grinder. Given that my grinder was over a year old at this point, they went above and beyond what I expected - truly exceptional service.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Niche to anyone - they actually care about their customers and stand behind their product 100%.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Really dont see the issue here, companies been around for like 3yrs theres go knows how many of these grinders world wide...

Plenty of grinders for sale on uk websites

Bella barista

Black cat coffee

Clumsy goat


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

Cuprajake said:


> Really dont see the issue here, companies been around for like 3yrs theres go knows how many of these grinders world wide...
> Plenty of grinders for sale on uk websites
> Bella barista
> Black cat coffee
> Clumsy goat


 Or here coffeeitalia 
Only if you want "Real Hassle"


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

@Brook @Chriss29

The legal recourse is a bit murky but if you were to challenge it in court and claim you were making a 'donation' in exchange for a grinder that comes with a 1 year warranty you'd probably win. There haven't really been any reported cases of Niches breaking aside from through misuse (i.e leaving the motor running for a week) so the warranty isn't really going to be worth anything anyway, which should always be the case....it's just there for security. Thousands of users not reporting any faults should also provide that same security.

Secondly, the Indegogo platform for Niche is well established; people hear that's the place to buy it. Starting a website is expensive, and when your supply is not capable of meeting demand it doesn't make financial sense to open a shopify store (with a monthly subscription) when you can just sell them individually with a % deduction by another platform which allows them to take payment before the grinder is even made. It's a completely different structure. If you were to buy the grinder on shopify they would only be able to take payment when the item is shipped to you; if you buy on indegogo they take payment and then pay the manufacturer to make the grinder. The way demand outstrips supply would mean the shopify website sits there for half the year not making any money while costing monthly fees.

That said if you want you can buy one second hand via an ebay store that won't come with any kind of warranty but will allow you to make claims in court technically against the seller (if it develops a fault within a year and ebay don't back you up). Or you can buy a different grinder from a different store and risk them not being around to honour any warranty you get in one or two years time, as always...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@********** I *so* want to remove that link....... to coffeeitalia....ah sod it, I'm going to bork the link...and point it to the companies many reviews by CFUK members.


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## davril (Sep 17, 2012)

> stuff removed <sigh>


 Bit harsh. While i personally would have no problem buying I do understand why someone might have legitimate concerns. You are handing over £500 to a company and agreeing you aren't actually making a traditional purchase with them.


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> @********** I *so* want to remove that link....... to coffeeitalia....ah sod it, I'm going to bork the link...and point it to the companies many reviews by CFUK members.


Remove it before someone goes down that route and starts a thread we really don't need...it was in jest obviously


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

********** said:


> DavecUK said:
> 
> 
> > @********** I *so* want to remove that link....... to coffeeitalia....ah sod it, I'm going to bork the link...and point it to the companies many reviews by CFUK members.
> ...


 I've done what I know you intended to do and pointed said link to the many, not so wonderful reviews of the company on our forum, which is even more jesty 😉


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

It's beyond comprehension that Niche still sell their grinder this way, at this point Niche should have a fully functional webshop like everyone else. There is no logical explanation for them to make it look like they are running a crowd funding campaign when they are clearly not, as they are just using Indiegogo as a webshop. Some of the responsibilities obviously lies at Indiegogo for even allowing such practice, but it definitely look like a way to avoid legislation regarding customers rights.

they might not, but to avoid such allegations they would be better off with their own webshop and no it neither expensive not difficult to run one in 2020.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I have had to tidy some stuff in the thread....please play the ball, not the man, keep it reasonably respectful and respect others can have an opinion...even if you don't agree with it, don't get personal. I don't want to have to lock the thread because then it will seem like we are stifling free expression.

Thanks....in advance.


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

MWJB said:


> The flip side of expressing your opinions is that people can refute them, with equally freely expressed opinions. Or, even better, real life experience. If you want to believe there's some kind of machiavellian scheme at play, there are much more entertaining sites & forums to visit.


Who said anything about Machiavelli? Honestly? Of course we can talk about everything, that's the idea.


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

As I said before, hardly a topic which deserves debate other than in the case of the 'contract' which the OP has said he is not willing to agree to, being dishonoured. I personally have not seen one instance of that here on this forum. If this ever happens, I agree this would be a subject worthy of discussion purely to serve to draw attention to any actual pitfalls with such transactions. I didn't see any 'risk' that I was not prepared to accept. That being the case I'm happy with my 'risky' purchase as I'm sure are others on the forum.


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

shaunlawler said:


> The perceived risk here is ill-founded.
> 
> Yes it's a bit weird that it's still an Indiegogo platform but if you pay the purchase price the grinder, you will either receive it or, if not, get a refund (although with the demand it's extremely unlikely this would happen).
> 
> The Niche is certainly worth the 'risk' in any event at their price point.


I keep seeing this point about the price, don't know about you but in Euros it's the half of my salary and like me about the half of the Spaniards (or more), so it's not exactly cheap. Yes, it's cheaper than other grinders but again, it depends of the country you live.


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

malling said:


> It's beyond comprehension that Niche still sell their grinder this way, at this point Niche should have a fully functional webshop like everyone else. There is no logical explanation for them to make it look like they are running a crowd funding campaign when they are clearly not, as they are just using Indiegogo as a webshop. Some of the responsibilities obviously lies at Indiegogo for even allowing such practice, but it definitely look like a way to avoid legislation regarding customers rights.
> 
> they might not, but to avoid such allegations they would be better off with their own webshop and no it neither expensive not difficult to run one in 2020.


Exactly, this is the point, this thread started with a question out of curiosity, I think reasonable. Nobody questions the quality of the grinder of the after sale service, which I am sure is very good, only the manner of marketing and selling.


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## Ilias (Nov 24, 2020)

Could it be for tax purposes... ?

Does anyone know if donations are taxed differently (VAT etc ?). I am just asking, I have no idea if there is any difference.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

profesor_historia said:


> MWJB said:
> 
> 
> > The flip side of expressing your opinions is that people can refute them, with equally freely expressed opinions. Or, even better, real life experience. If you want to believe there's some kind of machiavellian scheme at play, there are much more entertaining sites & forums to visit.
> ...


 OP clearly implied he thought something underhand was going on. It wasn't simply posed as a question.


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## Alfieboy (Dec 26, 2018)

*Note: I know they are a great grinder*

I think we're all ignoring the elephant in the room?

"They look like a £500 Thermos Flask" 😎


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

With 20,000 sold, if there was something underhand going on you'd think we'd have heard about it by now. They have profile on Instagram and FB and the company are accessible. I've been looking at them for a while and I cannot say I've heard a single instance of 'scamminess' or anything less than good (usually great) customer service.

I haven't bought one because I don't think I need it atm, but I would have no reservations buying one.


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## Alfieboy (Dec 26, 2018)

Uncletits said:


> *Note: I know they are a great grinder*
> 
> I think we're all ignoring the elephant in the room?
> 
> "They look like a £500 Thermos Flask" 😎


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

profesor_historia said:


> shaunlawler said:
> 
> 
> > The perceived risk here is ill-founded.
> ...


 Expensive is always in the eye of the beholder.

For someone with a very basic income it might be a very expensive purchase, but for someone with a high income it would cost no more than a pair of shoes.

And how expensive you look at it is probably also related to how much you have spent before on a grinder. Having spend 4x as much with a rather modest income, even I don't find it that expensive.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Uncletits said:


> View attachment 50307


 How to make friends and influence others......>LOL


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

Uncletits said:


> View attachment 50307


 Yeah if kitchen Aid made a thermoflask it would probably look something like a niche.


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

malling said:


> Expensive is always in the eye of the beholder.
> For someone with a very basic income it might be a very expensive purchase, but for someone with a high income it would cost no more than a pair of shoes.
> 
> And how expensive you look at it is probably also related to how much you have spent before on a grinder. Having spend 4x as much with a rather modest income, even I don't find it that expensive.


Did you have a 2000£ grinder? Which model?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Ilias said:


> Could it be for tax purposes... ?
> 
> Does anyone know if donations are taxed differently (VAT etc ?). I am just asking, I have no idea if there is any difference.


 I think they're taxed the same.



malling said:


> It's beyond comprehension that Niche still sell their grinder this way, at this point Niche should have a fully functional webshop like everyone else. There is no logical explanation for them to make it look like they are running a crowd funding campaign when they are clearly not, as they are just using Indiegogo as a webshop. Some of the responsibilities obviously lies at Indiegogo for even allowing such practice, but it definitely look like a way to avoid legislation regarding customers rights.
> 
> they might not, but to avoid such allegations they would be better off with their own webshop and no it neither expensive not difficult to run one in 2020.


 I thought I gave a pretty good example of the potential logical reasoning earlier, in my post above. Maybe my logic is faulty; I don't have experience of manufacturing and selling a product, running a webstore or a company. Seems logical not to pay to maintain a website that will only make sales for a few weeks out of the year when you can just pay a low % fee on each unit sold and take payment in advance of manufacture....


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@profesor_historia I think that @malling made a good point, expensive depends on how you look at it and your expectations. I realise you said it's a significant portion of your salary, I get that. How about looking at it the other way, with the ease of dialling in shots, ability to return to a grind setting faultlessly, no purging, unless you are drinking incredibly cheap coffee (in which case you don't need a Niche), it pretty much pays for itself in 5 or 6 years, often much sooner. This is because the coffee you can waste works out to be quite expensive over a 5 year period.

So in a sense it's free....

My mum used to have a Plasma, on 12 hours per day as background and company (widow), I purchased an LCD TV for her and tried to explain (unsuccessfully) that the plasma used almost 500W anfd the LCD about 70W. £1.30 electricity consumption per day vs 13p meant the LCD would more than pay for itself in under 1 year. So she would actually save money in the long run because it had a 3 year warranty....she never really got it.


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> @profesor_historia I think that @malling made a good point, expensive depends on how you look at it and your expectations. I realise you said it's a significant portion of your salary, I get that. How about looking at it the other way, with the ease of dialling in shots, ability to return to a grind setting faultlessly, no purging, unless you are drinking incredibly cheap coffee (in which case you don't need a Niche), it pretty much pays for itself in 5 or 6 years, often much sooner. This is because the coffee you can waste works out to be quite expensive over a 5 year period.
> So in a sense it's free....
> My mum used to have a Plasma, on 12 hours per day as background and company (widow), I purchased an LCD TV for her and tried to explain (unsuccessfully) that the plasma used almost 500W anfd the LCD about 70W. £1.30 electricity consumption per day vs 13p meant the LCD would more than pay for itself in under 1 year. So she would actually save money in the long run because it had a 3 year warranty....she never really got it.


Totally agree, sorry about the comparison I made, a bit out of place. You are right. I think for me it's a bit difficult to jump from the very cheap second hand grinders I had during these years to a more expensive one and new, but this is totally my problem .


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@profesor_historia I understand I really do, and it's a sad fact of life that people with money always end up paying less for the same things compared to the poorest in society. e.g. Rich Person wants x, pays £1000, a very poor person buys it on the CC and pays the minimum back on a loaded card...effectively poor persons TAX of 20%+

Not saying your poor or anything, just illustrating the point...

It's like a Dalian 1kg roaster, if you have *the space and spare cash*, you could buy it as a home roaster and get your money back when you finished with it, having enjoyed a commercial grade roaster for a decade or more.


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Brook said:


> Only place I can find is on Indigogo, however on adding to cart I get this:
> 
> I do not feel comfortable buying something only to be told I am not actually buying anything, and I certainly do not want to 'donate' £500 to anyone! Why is a company who has as far as I can tell sold almost £10M worth of product doing this? It doesn't instil confidence and seems like a way to avoid being held to account 😕


 I've read your views on risk. How have you lived this long?

Just buy it. If you don't receive it we'll have a whip round and get you your money back. But we won't need to.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

MWJB said:


> The flip side of expressing your opinions is that people can *refute* them, with equally freely expressed opinions. Or, even better, real life experience. If you want to believe there's some kind of machiavellian scheme at play, there are much more entertaining sites & forums to visit.


 Well it is debatable if it is possible to actually refute an opinion - as an opinion (by definition) isn't necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

But (that aside) nobody has actually refuted the OPs original statement of fact - that (technically & legally) obtaining something via a crowdfunding mechanism isn't the same as actually buying it!

You may all be correct in saying that "Niche" won't let you down, they are decent blokes, you'll always get your machine or (at least) your money back blah blah... but the OP is still correct......

Personally - if I wanted a Niche I would have few qualms getting it via this path.... but I don't want a Niche (at the moment) and "few" isn't "none"....

This (may be) my last pedantic post of the year............

Merry New Year to all ;-)


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

I took a punt at £350 before the main production phase started and was rewarded with a shiny new Niche. It was a gamble (albeit the odds were heavily stacked in my favour). Roll on two years I'm not entirely sure why folk are still expected to take a £500 punt during the main production phase (albeit with almost zero risk).


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

Drewster said:


> Well it is debatable if it is possible to actually refute an opinion - as an opinion (by definition) isn't necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
> 
> But (that aside) nobody has actually refuted the OPs original statement of fact - that (technically & legally) obtaining something via a crowdfunding mechanism isn't the same as actually buying it!
> 
> ...


 It really comes down to whether or not a court would rule it as crowdfunding or not.

I'm pretty sure that should it ever get that far, that the court would rule it in favour of the buyer.


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## Cafe675 (Jun 22, 2015)

lake_m said:


> I took a punt at £350 before the main production phase started and was rewarded with a shiny new Niche. It was a gamble (albeit the odds were heavily stacked in my favour). Roll on two years I'm not entirely sure why folk are still expected to take a £500 punt during the main production phase (albeit with almost zero risk).


 To start manufacturing it, they need an investment of money they don't have, this investment is made by offering the product with low profit margins for the company, this way they get initial sales easier than if they initially sold it to 500, Now that many people know it and know how well it works, they don't need to make a big discount to convince other possible buyers. This is how crowfunding works

Ah, I think new Porsche's are expensive, they cost more money than many people earn in a year, but if they are manufactured it is because they are sold, I don't think this grinder is so expensive if you sell so many units so fast. They sell around the world, they are not going to sell in a country below production costs or make a big discount because the average salary is low compared to other countries 🤣


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I really do not get this argument. Some folks are comparing hypotheticals against reality. Yes, you could do this and if you did that might happen......how on earth do some of you get out of bed and cross the road? With the sales volume Niche have, all bought through Indiegogo I still challenge anyone to come up with one sale where either the product has gone wrong and Niche have not quickly sorted it to 100% satisfaction.

Quite simply, after nearly 3 years, if you are not happy with this route, t✌hen avoid it and buy something else.Why am I saying this? Simple, the same old rubbish is blurted out on a regular basis by people. Show me evidence or please, just read one of the many old posts and add a like, as I cannot see anything of value being added.

Have you ever thought, that there might be a valid reason why Niche still prefer to sell this way?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Cafe675 said:


> Ah, I think new Porsche's are expensive, they cost more money than many people earn in a year, but if they are manufactured it is because they are sold, I don't think this grinder is so expensive if you sell so many units so fast. They sell around the world, they are not going to sell in a country below production costs or make a big discount because the average salary is low compared to other countries 🤣


 Major factor in Niche's success notwithstanding its capabilities as a grinder, is that the company is selling direct - no middle man so no retailer markup which would be considerable if applicable. Selling direct helps keep the price down which is one reason why the Niche has been a roaring success.


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## Cafe675 (Jun 22, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Major factor in Niche's success notwithstanding its capabilities as a grinder, is that the company is selling direct - no middle man so no retailer markup which would be considerable if applicable. Selling direct helps keep the price down which is one reason why the Niche has been a roaring success.


 if I agree, I said so because I read in the post that it was expensive for some people and that is why I comment that if it is so popular it is not because it is an expensive price for what it offers


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Drewster said:


> But (that aside) nobody has actually refuted the OPs original statement of fact - that (technically & legally) obtaining something via a crowdfunding mechanism isn't the same as actually buying it!


 That's true. I'd actually like to know why, just out of interest. Everyone's post is the same - 'if you don't like it, don't buy it'/they've proved they're trustworthy. I agree with those sentiments and wouldn't have a problem buying from them, but they don't answer the question.

There must be a business/financial reason they are doing it this way. They can sell direct via their own website for the same/very minimal costs so it's not that. If anything I would think they lose sales staying on Indiegogo as people often don't trust that type of platform. Maybe there's some kind of protection or benefit for them, or financial incentive somewhere, maybe a legal/tax loophole. There's something we're all missing. Most people don't care but I get that some do, it's fine to raise the question. It's at least interesting from a business point of view.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Uncletits said:


> View attachment 50307


 One on the right is the hand ground version - due out in 2021👍


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> @profesor_historia I understand I really do, and it's a sad fact of life that people with money always end up paying less for the same things compared to the poorest in society. e.g. Rich Person wants x, pays £1000, a very poor person buys it on the CC and pays the minimum back on a loaded card...effectively poor persons TAX of 20%+
> Not saying your poor or anything, just illustrating the point...
> It's like a Dalian 1kg roaster, if you have *the space and spare cash*, you could buy it as a home roaster and get your money back when you finished with it, having enjoyed a commercial grade roaster for a decade or more.


Thank you@DavecUK , I got your point and you are perfectly right. Let's see how the Arco will develop but I know that at some point I will have to try the Niche







.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

CocoLoco said:


> That's true. I'd actually like to know why, just out of interest. Everyone's post is the same - 'if you don't like it, don't buy it'/they've proved they're trustworthy. I agree with those sentiments and wouldn't have a problem buying from them, but they don't answer the question.
> 
> There must be a business/financial reason they are doing it this way. They can sell direct via their own website for the same/very minimal costs so it's not that. If anything I would think they lose sales staying on Indiegogo as people often don't trust that type of platform. Maybe there's some kind of protection or benefit for them, or financial incentive somewhere, maybe a legal/tax loophole. There's something we're all missing. Most people don't care but I get that some do, it's fine to raise the question. It's at least interesting from a business point of view.


 The financial incentive is they can take money without holding stock. They might lose sales but they can't keep up with demand anyway so that's irrelevant. On Indegogo, they don't have to register a domain and pay for maintenance of a website, pay for security, and most of all they can take payment from customers without dispatching a product which means they can operate with no stock on hand and no money in the bank as it's all built to order. You could argue they could take pre-orders while paying for their own domain and paying for admin/security for the website and when they have enough for a shipment to then place an order at the factory using profits from previous sales, then when they arrive take payment and ship them out. Of course for most of the year you would be paying for a domain that isn't generating any income aside from when products are actually shipped out. If they warehouse the stock then they have to pay for that....

If you owned the business which would you prefer?


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## Mpbradford (Jan 28, 2020)

I took the leap of faith in November and handed over my £500 with an anticipated delivery date of 21/01/21. This is the latest communication from Niche. I'm not nervous at this time - but the experience does create fulfilment/arrival anxiety. Importing my Bullet roaster from Taiwan had more certainty.

IMPORTANT UPDATE FOR EARLY 2021 ORDERS

Due to the current situation, we are anticipating delays due to Brexit and Coronavirus which are issues out of our control. We apologise in adavance if there are any delays.

We are working hard to mitigate the impact on any orders due for early 2021.

If you have any questions, please contact us at [email protected]


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## Akula (Oct 1, 2020)

I was under the impression that most people who ordered a Niche new , have been receiving them a few weeks before the anticipated delivery date ??

Dont think i have seen anyone complaining they have been late ??



Mpbradford said:


> I took the leap of faith in November and handed over my £500 with an anticipated delivery date of 21/01/21. This is the latest communication from Niche. I'm not nervous at this time - but the experience does create fulfilment/arrival anxiety. Importing my Bullet roaster from Taiwan had more certainty.
> 
> IMPORTANT UPDATE FOR EARLY 2021 ORDERS
> 
> ...


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Just popping by ... can't believe how much time and virtual hot air has been consumed in keeping this topic alive which surely should have been curtailed as a final gesture to what was a pretty woeful 2020. Where are the mods these days I wonder. Surely there's more uplifting discussion to come in 2021 otherwise we'll all be in a pretty poor state yet again!

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

skylark said:


> Just popping by ... can't believe how much time and virtual hot air has been consumed in keeping this topic alive which surely should have been curtailed as a final gesture to what was a pretty woeful 2020.


 Recommend you take out a bronze badge with added privileges not least of which is the 'ignore' button👍



skylark said:


> Where are the mods these days I wonder.


 Alive and well, thank you and applying 'light touch modding' wherever possible😃


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Got to pay to ignore posts these days? Wow, 2021 hasn't started too well ...

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> The financial incentive is they can take money without holding stock. They might lose sales but they can't keep up with demand anyway so that's irrelevant. On Indegogo, they don't have to register a domain and pay for maintenance of a website, pay for security, and most of all they can take payment from customers without dispatching a product which means they can operate with no stock on hand and no money in the bank as it's all built to order. You could argue they could take pre-orders while paying for their own domain and paying for admin/security for the website and when they have enough for a shipment to then place an order at the factory using profits from previous sales, then when they arrive take payment and ship them out. Of course for most of the year you would be paying for a domain that isn't generating any income aside from when products are actually shipped out. If they warehouse the stock then they have to pay for that....
> 
> If you owned the business which would you prefer?


 They could take money without holding stock, on their own domain. Website running costs are minimal and we're talking about a company with millions of pounds on hand here. Basically do exactly what they are doing, just with their own website. No warehousing needed. Take the money as they are doing, hold it until the order is made (all the while subsequent orders are coming in), then ship product to customer.

They can't keep up with demand as their operation hasn't grown with that demand it seems.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Alternatively, you can make a donation if you wish like in the olden days and forego the additional privileges. That way, you don't have to pay for anything.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

skylark said:


> Got to pay to ignore posts these days? Wow, 2021 hasn't started too well ...


 A cheaper way is just to not click on posts that don't interest you.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

CocoLoco said:


> A cheaper way is just to not click on posts that don't interest you.


 Far too simple


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@CocoLoco wonder if it's done on purpose, if supply never meets demand, then theres always that 'exclusivity' about it.

Its not a product you can just walk into a shop and try eh


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Can we remember the supply chain! Niche use genuine Mazzer burrs and currently buy more in 6 months than Mazzer used to make in a year


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Oh im not saying its a bad thing,


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

CocoLoco said:


> They could take money without holding stock, on their own domain. Website running costs are minimal and we're talking about a company with millions of pounds on hand here. Basically do exactly what they are doing, just with their own website. No warehousing needed. Take the money as they are doing, hold it until the order is made (all the while subsequent orders are coming in), then ship product to customer.
> 
> They can't keep up with demand as their operation hasn't grown with that demand it seems.


 It's illegal to take payment when items are not available to ship within 30 days under distance selling regulations. Cost is cost. It doesn't matter how many millions a company has a decision has to be financially justifiable, especially to any investors. Fact is a website would lose money and gain nothing. Maybe if they start manufacturing their own burrs...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Cuprajake said:


> @CocoLoco wonder if it's done on purpose, if supply never meets demand, then theres always that 'exclusivity' about it.
> 
> Its not a product you can just walk into a shop and try eh


 it's absolutely not done on purpose....


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

skylark said:


> Just popping by ... can't believe how much time and virtual hot air has been consumed in keeping this topic alive which surely should have been curtailed as a final gesture to what was a pretty woeful 2020. Where are the mods these days I wonder. Surely there's more uplifting discussion to come in 2021 otherwise we'll all be in a pretty poor state yet again!


 As mods we have to ensure people follow the forum guidelines, having this sort of discussion is not against those guidelines, however "tiresome" some may find it. certainly I look at it mainly with an eye to modding, not because I think it is a useful discussion. If we locked it or "curtailed" it in some way, people would feel they were not allowed to have their say..

The mods these days have all been really busy doing the many other things mods should do, apart from moderating members posts, and a lot of work has been going on behind the scenes to clean up various areas of the forum and do some badly needed maintenance (all boring stuff and mostly not visible). Along with ensuring the direction/future of the forum in line with the needs of all.



skylark said:


> Got to pay to ignore posts these days? Wow, 2021 hasn't started too well ...


 The idea is to move to a model where sponsorship doesn't just get you a "massive thank you", but gives some benefits as well. The ignore function has to be, paid for (it's not native to Invision) tested, maintained, upgraded, renewed etc..

The idea is not to pay, to ignore threads...the idea is to give you something for sponsorship....quite a few things and it's not mandatory. the forum is still free for those who don't want to sponsor or donate.


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## Al Grandé (Nov 26, 2020)

I've read, all this thread.

Your are all right...

I've just ordered, (made a donation), the Niche. I had to think hard, having read the t and c's.

I looked at this forum, and all the reviews and everyone ordered has been received..

I sort of know how crowd funding works, but maybe, once the product gets in to production, the manufacturer has to sell through the crowd funder....


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## ross_t1989 (Dec 21, 2019)

My wife very kindly just bought me a Niche Zero for my birthday. She knew I wanted one but I had no idea she was going to buy it.

As she had to 'pre-order' through Indiegogo she gave me a card saying she'd ordered it, as it was due for delivery mid-December.

She did comment that the order process was unusual and that she felt a little uncomfortable with it, but went ahead as it is the only way to order one.

The grinder arrived two weeks early, so no problems there and I'm very happy with it. However, I do understand the OP's concerns. It certainly seems a strange way for an established company to operate.


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