# Moving on from silvia - Expobar dual boiler or HX E61 machine?



## grindandbrew

Hi I am looking to upgrade my silvia and am torn between the Expobar duel boiler and one of the multitudes of E61 HX machines out there for a similar price! I like the idea of a PID and would prefer to plumb it in. I make espresso and milk based drinks, Any suggestions welcome!


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## hotmetal

As someone who went from a Classic to a db I might not be qualified to talk about HX machines as I haven't had one. However I think it may be worth skipping the HX and going straight to DB if that's an option for you. One less point of upgraditis! It means not having to flush water through the group to bring the temperature down after the machine has been sat idle. That means better temp stability and less waste water - which if you are using bottled water is a good thing, perhaps less so if you're plumbing. You may need to factor in a filtration or RO system if you're using mains water though. Maybe not a show stopper though and I'm sure in a minute you'll hear from the HX chaps and chappesses.


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## bronc

Rotary DB Expobar - no need to flush and adjustable temperatures. Quiet and can be plumbed in.


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## h1udd

No that's pretty much the extent of it hotmetal. Unless you buy something like a Nota with humongous boiler and thermosyphen loop then the smaller hx will require a flush before pouring if the machine had been sat idle ... For me not a show stopper though as I use that flush to preheat cups.

i bought my hx in 2008 as a stop gap to a DB, it's now 2016 and I have only just felt the need to upgrade ... But all the db's are considerably larger and I do like the small vivi for my needs.


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## grindandbrew

Thanks Hotmetal that is my general thinking too, it just seems strange to me that there is the Expobar dual boiler in the same price bracket as the HX machines so wondering if there was a catch! Anyone know how long the Expobar takes to warm up form cold?


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## h1udd

Anything with a e61 that doesn't heat the head directly will take 30-45 mins ... Water temp will be up in 10mins, but drawing it through a cold group head will kill the heat ... You could keep flushing though to warm the head up quicker though


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## kyoczek

Tbh, i wouldn't recommend HX in that category. Trying to get satisfactory temp stability with cooling flushes can be quite frustrating. Had small Bezzera machine and got rid of it eventually. HX with bigger boilers makes sense in commercial environment when you're doing shots more or less all day. Haven't seen that Expobar in action yet but it sounds good. Decent parts inside, easy to get spares in UK. The prices mostly depends on the size of both boilers, which aren't that bad! Could be a problem only when used in more busy environment


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## grindandbrew

I don't think my coffee room ( my wife also inconveniently keeps a washing machine in there) counts as a busy environment! Just gets busy at the weekend when the family all come around demanding flat whites! Currently takes me ages on the silvia...


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## grindandbrew

I am pretty sold on the Expobar DB seems to have all the spec I want, it's only the rocket Giotto plus PID which is tempting me only because it looks soooo nice...Not a good enough reason though!


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## hotmetal

Don't be sold on looks (easy for me to say with an R58 i know!).

The Expobar machines are just as capable of making great coffee for a long time. The price difference between them and say, Izzo, Rocket, Quick mill etc is to some extent the materials used inside and out, but they're still good, based on the fact we don't hear very much from users complaining or having problems, and the only criticisms seem to be from tech experts who have taken them apart and found the components to be cheaper. Very few reported actual problems as far as I'm aware from reading these boards though. Prettiness and brand will also be a factor.

I'd probably take a Brewtus over a Rocket HX tbh, although theyare all lovely machines.


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## grindandbrew

Cheers Hotmetal im going to go for it! I'll post my thoughts once it arrives! Anyone know the going rate for an unmodified silvia mk3?


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## scottgough

As a Giotto evoluzione v2 owner, I must say the flushes aren't an issue at all really. If up to temp and left for more than 30min between shots, it takes a 5 second flush, which I use to pre heat cups anyway. Temp stability on most high end HX machines is pretty much spot on. Andrew from Rocket has always said that he doesn't see their HX machines as inferior to the DB models, just different. (I'm not personally suggesting for one second that an R58-60 isn't better btw!)


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## NeilR

Scott beat me to it. As another Giotto evoluzione v2 owner, I don't find the cooling flushes a problem. I dare say that even if I had a double boiler machine, I would still run through some water, to heat cups, clean shower screen etc.

The big difference I have found with upgrading from a Gaggia Classic to the Rocket HX is the consistency of shot. Even if the variables are wrong, then I very rarely end up with a cup of coffee that I can't drink. I couldn't say that with the Classic.


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## hotmetal

Exactly. Flushes are a minor issue for some, E61 group is a big lump of metal that will even out the brew temp considerably.


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## GlennV

h1udd said:


> No that's pretty much the extent of it hotmetal. Unless you buy something like a Nota with humongous boiler and thermosyphen loop then the smaller hx will require a flush before pouring if the machine had been sat idle ... For me not a show stopper though as I use that flush to preheat cups.
> 
> i bought my hx in 2008 as a stop gap to a DB, it's now 2016 and I have only just felt the need to upgrade ... But all the db's are considerably larger and I do like the small vivi for my needs.


All E61 HX machines have a thermosyphon loop, it's how the group is heated. What's special about the Nota's?


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## grindandbrew

Ok, now you have go me thinking about a HX as I always flush to heat cup/clean the group anyway. So if I was going to look at a rocket there seems to be 2 options the GIOTTO EVOLUZIONE and the New 2015 Giotto Plus V3 PID the second one has the PID but don't think it can be plumbed in the first one can be plumbed in I think! I would prefer PID and the option to plumb in. Does anyone have an opinion on the differences? Also is the Cellini the same? It looks different but is the same price! To many Rocket options!


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## scottgough

Chrisbonwick said:


> Ok, now you have go me thinking about a HX as I always flush to heat cup/clean the group anyway. So if I was going to look at a rocket there seems to be 2 options the GIOTTO EVOLUZIONE and the New 2015 Giotto Plus V3 PID the second one has the PID but don't think it can be plumbed in the first one can be plumbed in I think! I would prefer PID and the option to plumb in. Does anyone have an opinion on the differences? Also is the Cellini the same? It looks different but is the same price! To many Rocket options!


For me the evoluzione wins, temp stability isn't a problem anyway, plus you get a plumable option, and the rotary pump. I had the same quandary when I bought mine, the general consensus (inc Claudette from BB) was that unless you planned on playing with your brew temp daily, the pid wasn't necessary, and wasn't worth forgoing the rotary pump for.


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## bronc

Flushing for 5 secs means absolutely nothing in terms of temperature unless you have an Eric's thermometer (which costs around £100). If you're doing it by sound/look, the temperature could be anywhere between 90-99*C. Sure, some people may have experimented and reached the conclusion that a 5-sec flush from standing idle 30min is 95*C but what if the machine has been standing for 15 min or 3 min? What if you want to try lighter and darker roasted beans at different temperatures?

By the way, how does a PID control the temperature in a HX system? Does it measure the temperature in the thermosyphon or does it do some offset math with the temperature in the boiler?

EDIT: It appears that the PID measures the temperature in the steam boiler. Not really useful.. http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?28219-Rocket-v3-What-temperature-on-PID


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## h1udd

GlennV said:


> All E61 HX machines have a thermosyphon loop, it's how the group is heated. What's special about the Nota's?


sorry missed the important bit .. its got a restrictor in the thermosyphon loop that reduces the need to flush ... and according to owners (not witnessed it myself) you dont actually need to flush as the restrictor is suitably sized to combat it


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## NickdeBug

I would start with temperature stability, which is going to be the biggest influence in the cup.

the other things - rotary pump, looks, plumbing - are all for convenience and user appeal.


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## SimonN

Chrisbonwick said:


> Cheers Hotmetal im going to go for it! I'll post my thoughts once it arrives! Anyone know the going rate for an unmodified silvia mk3?


Hi Chris,

If it helps, i may be interested in your Silvia when you come to sell it!

Cheers

Simon


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## grindandbrew

Hi Simon, sure you can have first refusal once the new one arrives! I actually changed my mind to a rocket Giotto v3 evo but Bella Barista are out of stock!


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## SimonN

That's a great choice, and would be my first choice if funds allowed!

Cheers

Simon


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## PeterF

Expobar DB everytime. Had mine over 12 months & it's never missed a beat. Incredibly consistant PID temp control & very robust build quality. The only machine I would trade it in for is the Quick Mill Verona


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## grindandbrew

Hi Everyone, I have decided to go for the Rocket Giotto Evoluzione V2, I placed the order yesterday with Machina as Bella Barista had no stock. My thoughts where as below;

1. The Rocket looks sooo nice and it has always been a machine I have wanted to own! (rubbish reason i know)

2. I decided on a HX rather than DB as I like the idea of making the shot with fresh water direct form the mains rather than water inside a second

boiler which would have been constantly reboiled (deoxygenated) with the amount I use the machine.

4. In the end It was betwween the ECM Mechanika and the Giotto Evoluzione V2 the rocket is £100 cheaper and i prefer the valve on the rocket to the lever on the ECM.

Vanity and heart won over head in the end!

Just looking out of the window and can see a curtain sided lorry with a pallet on with ROCKET on the side so off I go to drool...

Thanks for the advice everyone!

Chris


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## h1udd

Good choice sir


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## scottgough

Excellent choice! Welcome to the Rocket family


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## Mad Wally

grindandbrew said:


> Hi Everyone, I have decided to go for the Rocket Giotto Evoluzione V2, I placed the order yesterday with Machina as Bella Barista had no stock. My thoughts where as below;
> 
> 1. The Rocket looks sooo nice and it has always been a machine I have wanted to own! (rubbish reason i know)


I fully disagree! I think it is an excellent reason. I hope to upgrade my Silvia some day and the Giotto would be my first choice for its great looks!


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## Olliehulla

Grindandbrew, I pondered this exact same question for a good few months and like you came from a Silvia (but mine was PIDd). I really wanted an Expobar DB but the opportunity came up to buy a Giotto evo 2 2nd hand in near perfect condition at a good price. Mines fully plumbed in now (3m scalegard system) which is a lot more convenient and means I don't have to fanny around filling the damn thing every 5 mins and can flush until my heart is content as no emptying of drip trays. The rotary pump is so much quieter than the vibe of the Silvia and shot consistency is right up there, certainly good enough for me.

There was of course the usual learning curve of a new machine but I soon got the hang of it and got used to having the steam wand on the "wrong side"









You won't be disappointed, its a beautiful, well made and very capable machine.

Enjoy !


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## Spooks

Been an interesting read as another Silvia owner having upgrade thoughts, enjoy the new machine


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## grindandbrew

Thanks Spooks - I had a good play last night, but realised drinking espresso all evening isn't the best idea when it came to finally going to bed


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## Andythepole

grindandbrew said:


> Hi Everyone, I have decided to go for the Rocket Giotto Evoluzione V2, I placed the order yesterday with Machina as Bella Barista had no stock. My thoughts where as below;
> 
> Chris


So, what is it like in person? I'm looking to buy and wanted to skip the Silvia/Classic step and jump to a solid HX performer that looks good in the kitchen


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## grindandbrew

Hi Andythepole

Well... Really good! And its so shiny.... Also makes good coffee! the main differences are as below.

So quick initial thoughts after a week with the Rocket after living with Silvia for the last couple of years.

cons;

1.It take longer to heat up (to be expected and well worth it for the heat stability)

2.The outlet from the drain valve on the E61 group is quite close to where you put the cup, and especially gets in the way of the scales if you are into weighing your shots, if your scales are too far back they end up getting soaked when the group dumps the water after the shot.(I guess this is the case with all E61 machines)

Pros;

1.Much more consistent shot - once the HX is flushed through (heating your cup) the shot is consistent every time so you can really play with the grind to dial in your perfect espresso.

2. Obviously - instant steam! you can steam at the same time as you pull your shot - making cappuccinos when your friend and family come around no longer takes all morning as it did with the Silvia!

3. Drier Steam - once you have opened the valve and the water in the tube has gone then the steam is nice and dry so better for making magical micro foam...

4. The Silvia's steam pressure is pretty good really for a SB once it has finally got to temperature but the rocket is something else - serous steaming! The 2 hole steam tip is a little harder to control a first but I am getting the hang of it. The milk has stretched too far and overheated in no time if you don't pay attention!

5. Super robust - when I got the Silvia after having a Gaggia baby I thought that was a solidly made machine - but the rocket takes it to a whole new level, locking the portafilter in doesn't move the machine (lucky as the whole machine gets red hot so you wouldn't want to hold on to it anyway) and the steam knob has that satisfying solid feel to it (sounds wrong I know...)

So over all The Rocket gives more consistent espresso shots, and quicker and more powerful steaming. I am planning to make a youtube video of a side by side espresso comparison with the two machines before i have to sell Miss Silvia... Ill keep you posted.

Chris


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## Olliehulla

cons;

1.It take longer to heat up (to be expected and well worth it for the heat stability)

get a Wemo / plug timer

2.The outlet from the drain valve on the E61 group is quite close to where you put the cup, and especially gets in the way of the scales if you are into weighing your shots, if your scales are too far back they end up getting soaked when the group dumps the water after the shot.(I guess this is the case with all E61 machines)

if you can, find a piece of suitable diameter/colour hose, you'll only need an inch or two, and insert into the bottom of the GH, taking the waste further into the drip tray to help with "splashback"

also, if you find you have sticky knobs (ooh err), insert a rubber o ring between the knob and the valve to to act as a damper, see http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?27004-Rocket-steam-valve-Mod


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## Andythepole

grindandbrew said:


> Hi Andythepole
> 
> Well... Really good! And its so shiny.... Also makes good coffee! the main differences are as below.
> 
> So quick initial thoughts after a week with the Rocket after living with Silvia for the last couple of years.
> 
> cons;
> 
> 1.It take longer to heat up (to be expected and well worth it for the heat stability)
> 
> 2.The outlet from the drain valve on the E61 group is quite close to where you put the cup, and especially gets in the way of the scales if you are into weighing your shots, if your scales are too far back they end up getting soaked when the group dumps the water after the shot.(I guess this is the case with all E61 machines)
> 
> Pros;
> 
> 1.Much more consistent shot - once the HX is flushed through (heating your cup) the shot is consistent every time so you can really play with the grind to dial in your perfect espresso.
> 
> 2. Obviously - instant steam! you can steam at the same time as you pull your shot - making cappuccinos when your friend and family come around no longer takes all morning as it did with the Silvia!
> 
> 3. Drier Steam - once you have opened the valve and the water in the tube has gone then the steam is nice and dry so better for making magical micro foam...
> 
> 4. The Silvia's steam pressure is pretty good really for a SB once it has finally got to temperature but the rocket is something else - serous steaming! The 2 hole steam tip is a little harder to control a first but I am getting the hang of it. The milk has stretched too far and overheated in no time if you don't pay attention!
> 
> 5. Super robust - when I got the Silvia after having a Gaggia baby I thought that was a solidly made machine - but the rocket takes it to a whole new level, locking the portafilter in doesn't move the machine (lucky as the whole machine gets red hot so you wouldn't want to hold on to it anyway) and the steam knob has that satisfying solid feel to it (sounds wrong I know...)
> 
> So over all The Rocket gives more consistent espresso shots, and quicker and more powerful steaming. I am planning to make a youtube video of a side by side espresso comparison with the two machines before i have to sell Miss Silvia... Ill keep you posted.
> 
> Chris


Thanks for that Chris, really sounds like a good machine, I'm tempted to go the same way as they look beautiful and everyone seems to rate them, I was interested to see how you find it as an upgrade so as to convince myself to skip the Silvia level and blow more money on something I'd get more from in the long run. Please do post the video when you're done with the comparison as to actually see the shot difference would also be interesting. The parallel steam and shot pulling is a win, like you say, if people come over you're not stuck there for half an hour with everyone waiting for their drinks in a line. The consistency of shot is also something that would be good for me, although a beginner, knowing that the machine is reliable and stable (following the flush) would allow me to learn faster to dial in a good shot without other variables interfering as much.

Thanks again, looking forward to hearing more!

A.


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## grindandbrew

Hi Olliehulla,

Thanks - Yes I have the Rocket on a Wemo plug so I can get it booted up when I leave work/wake up and as its plumbed into the mains it works really well!

Thanks for the tip on the hose, BTW the Knob isn't sticky I just meant it is solid an Quality feeling!

cb


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## grindandbrew

Andythepole said:


> Thanks for that Chris, really sounds like a good machine, I'm tempted to go the same way as they look beautiful and everyone seems to rate them, I was interested to see how you find it as an upgrade so as to convince myself to skip the Silvia level and blow more money on something I'd get more from in the long run. Please do post the video when you're done with the comparison as to actually see the shot difference would also be interesting. The parallel steam and shot pulling is a win, like you say, if people come over you're not stuck there for half an hour with everyone waiting for their drinks in a line. The consistency of shot is also something that would be good for me, although a beginner, knowing that the machine is reliable and stable (following the flush) would allow me to learn faster to dial in a good shot without other variables interfering as much.
> 
> Thanks again, looking forward to hearing more!
> 
> A.


Good luck with the decision mate - I definitely would have skipped the SB stage if I could have stretched to a HX at the time!

cb


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## Andythepole

grindandbrew said:


> Good luck with the decision mate - I definitely would have skipped the SB stage if I could have stretched to a HX at the time!
> 
> cb


Cheers, think I might take the plunge then as been saving for years for this and promised it to myself when I finally get my own place


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## Olliehulla

Andythepole said:


> Cheers, think I might take the plunge then as been saving for years for this and promised it to myself when I finally get my own place


do it !! do it !! do it !!


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