# La Spaziale filter baskets on the DTP and BE



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

What exactly is the problem with using these baskets on these machines. I know that the rim needs crunching up but why? Does it sit too low or is it's diameter too big or etc?

I think they are ridged baskets as well. Does this cause any problems - sloppy to too tight a fit etc.

I'm thoroughly brassed off with Sage in this area. Latest problem is a bean that could do with less coffee and a finer grind than the single can hold well. Probably of the capacity of a typical 7g single that would struggle to hold 9gm. Can't reduce the grind further because the machine would stall. Super tamping the single at about 35kg helps but not really a sensible solution.

Then there was the other bean, single too small and double too big.

So I am tempted to see what these baskets can do and don't fancy crunching them up. Maybe there is another way of getting them to fit.

It's an interesting area. IMS do these for their own machine and they are not expensive.

http://www.imsfiltri.com/risultati-ricerca/?competition=0&post_type=i-filtri&comp=la-spaziale&type=0&Capienza=0&submit=Search&lang=en

Personally I wonder if the competition baskets are really worth the money.

I understand that IMS make baskets specifically for a number of manufacturers - Sage I understand use China, 2 baskets and spoil their machines as a result.

John

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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

The diameter is a couple of mm too big to fit inside the group.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

I have an IMS triple you could try out if you like. Think it's 21g


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> What exactly is the problem with using these baskets on these machines. I know that the rim needs crunching up but why? Does it sit too low or is it's diameter too big or etc?
> 
> I think they are ridged baskets as well. Does this cause any problems - sloppy to too tight a fit etc.
> 
> ...


What is the weight of shot you are wanting to pull? Why can't you grind finer with 9g (if that works) and end up with 6-8g more in the cup? How are you determining "too big"? If you're on the verge of choking the machine, then you're too fine already.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've ordered a cheapy to see what I can do.







The conversion sounds like a job for a press and subsequent trimming. I can't do that. It's interesting that IMS do several 7g with different perforations also the 6g probably for espresso drinkers that want to use a really strong bean. Fracino offer something similar and tell me it's unusual for some one to want one. Commercially speaking there are probably very few espresso drinkers about.

I'm after the taste I want to drink MWJB so set up to achieve that. In practice that has generally meant high brew pressures.







"Super tamping", silly thing to do but it reduces the extraction rate and increases strength. I doubt if I will buy Jampit again, not for a BE anyway. I can't know if a finer grind would achieve the same thing without owning a lower capacity basket. I've already tried under filling within the limits of the basket.

I think the point really is that real espresso machine makers offer a range of basket sizes for their machines. Ok this mostly applies to commercial use. Clearly no point because Sage don't so they aren't needed - very tongue in cheek because they very clearly are needed.

John

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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Just need pliers for the basket mod. Really easy


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> I'm after the taste I want to drink MWJB so set up to achieve that. In practice that has generally meant high brew pressures.
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You're attaching too much emphasis to the pressure gauge readings.

Yes, I understand that you want a taste you like that's why we all do what we do - not to read gauges/experiment with tamping pressures/consider the gravitational pull of the 4th moon of Jupiter , but to make a nice drink & repeat it. Surely the taste you like & are seeking is the taste broadly described by the roaster, so you have an idea of what that taste is. Assuming an appropriate basket for each, 9g & 7g doses at the same extraction & brew ratio will taste the same, just the 9g dose & basket will make a slightly bigger drink. So, I can't see why having an extra sip in the cup makes the larger dose a non-starter, especially as you won't state the shot weight you are after.

Tamping too hard will slow the shot & reduce strength (all else being equal). But, surely the single basket has a shallow area around the rim, which will make super hard tamping pointless if you're just putting extra effort into compressing the shallow band of coffee around the rim & not the centre of the puck?

Use the grind to adjust the strength (at the same brew ratio). You can certainly know what a finer grind will do in the 9g basket, you just grind finer & see (but if you are on the verge of choking, sounds like you want to go coarser - how long do you need to run the pump to pull the shot?). Switching to a 7g basket, for the same size shot, will make the coffee weaker, that is all.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

We'll have to agree to disagree MWJB.

I'm way more interested in a solution to the Sage filter basket problem because as people drink various sizes and styles of drink and use or want to use a variety of beans it is a problem.

John

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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

A San Marco blind filter basket has an external wall diameter of 55mm, which I think is smaller than the Spaziale basket.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The problems seems to be the top rim dia 65mm on Spaziale and 62.4mm on Sage. Both are for a 53mm tamper. The main body diameter of the Sage at the top just under the rim is 54.82mm. Looking at a Spaziale equivalent maybe made by some one else that is 55mm. There is a ridge part way down the side of those though so they may be rather tough to get out assuming everything else could be made to fit a Sage.

The group head seal on the Sage might cause problems too. It's not flat. Seems to be shaped to accept the rim of the baskets and also protrude into them a bit. A sort of reverse image of the top of a basket.







Unless I have it fitted the wrong way round..

John

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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

ajohn said:


> The problems seems to be the top rim dia 65mm on Spaziale and 62.4mm on Sage. Both are for a 53mm tamper. The main body diameter of the Sage at the top just under the rim is 54.82mm. Looking at a Spaziale equivalent maybe made by some one else that is 55mm. There is a ridge part way down the side of those though so they may be rather tough to get out assuming everything else could be made to fit a Sage.
> 
> The group head seal on the Sage might cause problems too. It's not flat. Seems to be shaped to accept the rim of the baskets and also protrude into them a bit. A sort of reverse image of the top of a basket.
> 
> ...


Been using the IMS basket for at least three months I'd say with no issues, so have other owners. The ridged is a little tricky if using spouted pf. Just grab a spoon and pop it out though. Piece of p....... Even easier with a naked pf.

Apart from the earlier mentioned demon tweak with some pliers, these baskets could have been made for a sage.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I wonder how many people have tried the pliers and failed. It can't be easy. If I could use my workshop at the moment I'd try changing the shape of the rim via metal spinning. It would need a former turning up but that wouldn't be hard to do.

I have a ridge problem on the Piccino. The ridge is fine in a Fracino pf but not in an naked aftermarket one. Measurements show that there shouldn't be a problem and the ridges vary a bit between different basket sizes so all can be got out fairly easily apart from one. Not done it yet but the answer is probably to reduce and reshape the ridge with an oil stone. This particular ridge is sharper than the others for some reason - in the meantime I've ordered a basket extractor hoping it has a nice strong sharp end to it.







Fed up with using a spoon and they don't cost much.

What I can do with the basket I have ordered is reduce the rim diameter with a file. That'll probably cause height problems especially as the shape of the rim wont match the seal any more.

I suspect it's also possible to change the capacity of Sage baskets especially the double. They have a pretty long straight section one the sides. If the basket was split into 2 there the bottom part should fit fairly well into the top half. There is a food grade version of silver solder available as a paste that works well on stainless. All that is needed then is a propane torch or maybe mapps. Faithful do one that aught to be suitable but it would probably be a good idea to mount the basket on something that can be spun round as it's soldered back together. Some perforations could be blocked off the same way if needed. The usual problem silver soldering is applying heat too quickly.







No guarantee given or implied.

A lot of #rsing about when really Sage should make more sizes.

John

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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

ajohn said:


> I wonder how many people have tried the pliers and failed. It can't be easy.
> 
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I've ordered an ims basket and will attempt the plier treatment. Will report back.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've ordered one of their group seals in case it offers a method of getting around the height change problem if the diameter is simply reduced. I could cut my own shims if needed for that. They may also be available.

I think Joey has also fitted an after market version of their shower screen. It might make some difference but I suspect that they do what Fracino do - thick metal plate with a coarse small hole pattern in it to try and even out flow through the actual shower screen. The BE uses a different method which seems to work fairly well and doesn't extract any heat from the water flow - very little anyway.

John

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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

I failed when I tried, but I'm not good at such tasks. Joey helped me with that one.

I tend to believe I'm better at software though .


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

fatboyslim said:


> I've ordered an ims basket and will attempt the plier treatment. Will report back.


Will squeezing the outer edge of the flange / lip not kink the sealing surface. ?? Would rotating the periphery against a grinding wheel achieve a better finish / result. This is assuming you just need to reduce the outer edge diameter or is the body of the basket to large a diameter?


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

Regarding the ridge line on filter baskets: E61 / 60mm baskets are available with an internal ridge.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

They aren't bad to do. Bit of tape over the jaws will help protect the basket, and patience.

The basket will sit a little higher but it's only about 1mm. The group seal adjusts after a few goes so doesn't cause much of a problem.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The change in height would bug me as I would be stuck with that basket. It would make more sense for me to try the 12-14g but as some one who sells baskets mentioned that way of spec'ing them doesn't make any sense at all, beans vary. He measures and states the capacity in ml, a much better guide.

There may be a simple method of boosting the capacity of the sage single basket - reduce o/all thickness of the shower screen so that it protrudes less past the seal. That could be done with a sheet of emery with a bit of oil on it but soapy water would also help to prevent clogging. How much extra - don't know but intend to measure it next time I clean the shower arrangement. I'd guess a gram or so which is significant on a 9 plus a bit basket. Something like Jampit to the same fill level may weigh a bit more







I've got it how I want it now but haven't weighed it yet and am thanks to the basket probably using more coffee than the bean needs.

I seriously doubt if the sort of flap ring sticking out into the basket on sage seals does anything in practice so if in the way I would cut it off and find out.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've quickly checked the capacity of the Sage and Spaziale filter baskets. These are pretty rough to the brim but should be accurate to a few ml.

Sage 30ml single, 55ml double

Spaziale 7.5g ............. wait for it







55ml

I don't know what @joey24dirt actually fitted to his DTP when he changed the shower screen but it's probably this area that explains the huge apparent capacity of this basket. The shower screen must project a long way into the basket on their machines. I assume the arrangement is the same as my Piccino that also had a lower basket fill level than Sage. There is a sort of shallow narrow rimmed straight side pan with a thick base behind the usual style of shower screen with a fairly coarse hole pattern in it. Holes about 1.5mm dia and a lot less of them than the holes in the screen. It's used to even out the flow across the actual shower screen and also adds thermal mass. From what I can see Sage seem to use a sort of "labyrinth" moulded into the plastic group head. I've not looked that closely.

The baskets are a tight fit into the portafilter that's most noticeable when they are removed - they tilt and jam so need prising out in 2 or 3 places.

Looking at the fit I'm not convinced there is any need to crunch up the rim. The rim of the portafilter often actually sits inside the rim of the basket rather than on it's edge - helps to get them out so reducing the diameter might be an option. I'll see if I can do that later.

Use of a Spaziale group gasket doesn't seem to be an option. The standard shower screen is also a touch unusual - looks like it uses 2 of them one above the other. I bought the cheapest I could find.








The 14g basket is even bigger and of a depth that can go into the Sage portafilter. Might be of interest to milk drinkers.

John

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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

I ordered the IMS version for the spaz, not the actual original ones. They need to be pinched in around the rim but can't say for the spaz originals.

So do you think it was a worthy purchase for your needs?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Don't really know if the IMS shower screen would help Joey without seeing pictures. The part that cause the double shower screen that they use to project more into the basket is this one.









Easy enough to make if I could currently get at my lathe. Also yours for about £50 but the original may not give the same basket capacities if it can be fitted to a Sage. It would definitely need preheating anyway and might mess shots on the trot up if it cooled too quickly.

For my needs I don't think the basket would be of any use to me or anyone else that drinks americano style drinks or espresso. The flow pattern will differ from the Sage double and the true usable capacity will probably differ as well. Not easy to guess which way it would go. The capacity of the mugs I use are pretty well a standard but taller than the ones usually used commercially but the fit on the BE is fine, just need tilting a touch to get under the spout. I get the impression that domestic espresso isn't keeping up with "fashion". Many machines have too little mug height available. The usual 7g,12g,14g baskets make sense. The Sage single will hold a bit more than a Fracino 7g. Taking monsooned the optimum fill for Sage is 9.3g for me. In the Fracino 7g that scrapes the shower screen or may make it impossible to get on. It might manage 8g tops in practice. Other beans in the Sage also come out around the same weight but the drink turns out to be too weak. The only option left is smaller drinks. I know some one that sticks with an Aeropress because they reckon that espresso machines are only any good for espresso and maybe milk based. There is some truth in that on Sage machines. Odd thing is that Sage's current basket sizes fill holes in the usual sizes that may be covered by some makers as well as the usual ones.

I've attacked the Spaz 7.5g with a file. More or less removed the thickness of the metal that forms the rim. Needs a bit more. Also tried grinding with a Dremel. As expected the stones just wore out. The sanding drums are a touch better but much easier to slip than with a file so I marked the portafilter a touch. Nothing serious. The sanding drums are ok for subsequent smoothing after a file. I used the portafilte as a guide with the basket in it flat down on a bench with the edge over hanging. Safe edge file at an angle so that the portafilter isn't scratched. Not easy to measure accurately but the Spaz basket looks to sit 0.2mm higher than a Sage.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I cheated and risked loss of fingers and managed to get at the chuck end of the lathe. Silly thing to do as I managed to catch a knuckle slightly on a rotating chuck jaw. Files on lathes are ok but need using correctly.







I then found a stance where that wouldn't happen.

It now fits. Portafilter angle is more or less the same as with the standard baskets. My group head gasket has gone a little soft but I'd say there is very little difference. Maybe none really.

My machine is set up for Jampit at the moment and running consistently so loaded it with that. The part on a BE that people say more or less ignore that actually gives useful info showed that infusion pressure didn't change much, just dropped a bit and didn't hold that well. The peak pressure dropped to 12 o'clock or so rather than the usual 2. It didn't hold well either - muddy puck checked by briefly running a very short shot, seconds - no pressure at all. I drank it, bit's in my coffee as would be expected. There's usually none.







Tasted ok though. Going on that these could be of interest to people who want that size of basket. I suspect the flow characteristics differ from the Sage double.








If some one happens to have a lathe of some sorts they could set up to mod the baskets this way pretty easily. A round bit to fit into basket in held in the chuck that's a nice snug firm fit and driving pressure applied via the tailstock. Not much drive is needed. I gripped it very lightly in the 3 jaw and roughly tapped it true. Filing leaves a bit of fraze rather than try and smooth it out on the lathe I used a stone also to remove sharp edges. Mounted as suggested that could be done in the lathe too. Rather risky the way I was holding it.

Files for use on metal are a bit mixed these days. These are good

http://www.axminster.co.uk/vallorbe-swiss-hand-files-ax22596

2nd cut with a lathe running slowly gives a pretty good finish. They will by hand too but not so easily.

John

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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

ajohn said:


> I cheated and risked loss of fingers and managed to get at the chuck end of the lathe. Silly thing to do as I managed to catch a knuckle slightly on a rotating chuck jaw. Files on lathes are ok but need using correctly.
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I caught my knuckles the other day at 1400rpm. Threw my hand into my face. Very lucky.

So is that brass part pictured part of the BE set up?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

No that's a Spaz part that probably explains why their baskets have such a large capacity on a Sage. The one on the Piccino is over 6mm thick and sits directly behind the usual style of shower screen. The fixing screw holds that in place too. The Spaz grouphead seal is also a bit thinner than Sage's. Then comes the double shower screen one on top of the other - even more sticking out into the filter basket.








It might be possible to add the double screen to Sages single and make it a triple but I very much doubt if that would get the basket down to the 7g range. Adding the large chunk of metal Spaz use behind the screen to a Sage might mess up brew water temperature.








Adding a spacer and the double screen for a triple might. Plastic ? Too much else to do kitchen wise at the moment.

For filing metal on a metal lathe at this size I used about 1 to 200 rpm. Slow is generally best for this sort of thing.

John

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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

ajohn said:


> No that's a Spaz part that probably explains why their baskets have such a large capacity on a Sage. The one on the Piccino is over 6mm thick and sits directly behind the usual style of shower screen. The fixing screw holds that in place too. The Spaz grouphead seal is also a bit thinner than Sage's. Then comes the double shower screen one on top of the other - even more sticking out into the filter basket.
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I was polishing my tamper bases hence the speed lol


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

I've been thinking about that brass piece from the la Spaziale you posted a picture of. I'm wondering if I could make something similar but that would also incorporate the IMS competition basket..... and be the same shape as the original shower screen. So in effect a direct shower screen replacement that maintains original dimensions, but with hopefully a better dispersion of water.

Worthwhile project ?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> Don't really know if the IMS shower screen would help Joey without seeing pictures. The part that cause the double shower screen that they use to project more into the basket is this one.
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> View attachment 30425
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That brass disc in the pic looks suspiciously like a dispersion plate.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Ashcro has it - that's what it does. I've already posted my reservations about making one for the BE or DTP. The plastic group head and the thermoblock rather than a boiler arrangement limit heat transfer so it would need serious blank shots to get it up to brew temperature. Then if several shots were run on the trot it might not retain sufficient heat. Maybe it could be machined out of PEEK or something like that. I've never really tried machining that type of plastic and wonder if it is possible to get a quality of finish that would be needed. Only way to find out is to try it. PEEK is a touch expensive - something that's likely to put me off trying I hate paying many pounds so that I have enough to hold in a chuck just for the wanted bit on the end. There would be alternatives but the part in my Piccino is very smooth on the side the water goes onto.

The BE gets dispersion another way which as far as I can see works pretty well. My Piccino uses something very like the IMS one. I'd say if it is any better it's marginal. More holes in the dispersion plate too than Spaz use but Spaz use a double shower plate. Fitting that does interest me to get down to Spaz fill levels. It could be tried by turning up a short length of thin walled metal tube running from the Sage shower plate to the first Spaz one and then the 2nd on top of that. Something around 50mm OD would fit nicely into the first Spaz plate and the 2nd one pressed a bit to accept a countersunk headed socket screw suitably longer than the existing one.

Just fit an IMS shower plate and drop the Sage one? Joey wonders if that really does anything. I'd have my doubts.

John

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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Plenty of brass at work..... I'll give it a go. I reckon by the time the machine heads into sleep mode ( I think it's 5 minutes) the brass plate will be nice and hot. Everything else stays warm in that area through the plastic lower end so it's worth a try... plus it's another fun project to add to the list. If it works, brilliant


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

My portafilter has cooled down. I ran a shot a bit short of 10min ago. As I have mentioned I flush through a pressurised basket before running a shot which gets it far too hot to touch. I can touch it now. Unlike a boiler machine there is nothing to keep it hot. I use a double shot to heat it up. You could try removing as much metal as possible on the output side as the main effect is the holes and their length. I'm not entirely sure but suspect Fracino treat the part some how. Maybe a mild etch.

Like I said though. Like all if kept fairly clean the one on the BE works well anyway.

Cheapest place for Spaz's double shower plate seems to be happydonkey.

IMS this and that? Some one told me that they make the majority of baskets on the planet for many espresso machine makers. As they sell the things I have no reason not to believe them.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Talking baskets the Sage double may be a clever one. I did have 2 milk based drinkers here. Trying to run 2 drinks for them at the same time didn't work out well using the same grind as the single. One of the reasons I bought a 2nd grinder. Out of curiosity I ran my shots through the double using a double shot. It came out stronger, too strong but the behaviour of the machine suggested that this basket could use a much finer grind which would very probably make it stronger still - added - more suitable for producing 2 milk based at the same time. Our mug size might be rather ambitious though.








They both drink the same as me now one shot pulled at a time so not bothered to sort this out. Not that this helps the problem - a lack of different basket sizes.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Talking baskets the Sage double may be a clever one. I did have 2 milk based drinkers here. Trying to run 2 drinks for them at the same time didn't work out well using the same grind as the single. One of the reasons I bought a 2nd grinder. Out of curiosity I ran my shots through the double using a double shot. It came out stronger, too strong but the behaviour of the machine suggested that this basket could use a much finer grind which would very probably make it stronger still.
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If you use the same grind in the double & single Sage baskets, you need to pull the double shot to a shorter brew ratio, maybe 67% of the single shot brew ratio would be a good start point.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I'll remove these if they aren't helpful...

First two pics are the IMS basket after the plier-squeeze. It seems to fit in the group but I have to apply more force to lock it into place.

I think this due to the basket being slightly taller as @joey24dirt said.



















This pic is the original basket for comparison.










It's too late to try it out now. Will have a go tomorrow. Plier squeeze was hard work.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I reduce the rim diameter of the La Spaz basket to 63 to 63.5 depending on where it's measured as it's out of round. The inside of the rim is the part that fits onto the portafilter so the height difference compared with a Sage basket is very small. It might sit a touch higher but it's very little.
















No shiny competition baskets for me. I'd rather polish this one.

Don't go too small as may become difficult to get out. It needs levering anyway due to the ridge. A filter basket removal tool helps. The one sold on Amazon is ok and I've found it preferable to a spoon etc so glad I bought it.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've ordered another Spaz basket - the one cup pod model. Size wise it could be of interest without needing any mods to the machine.

Some one bought a Kaffee Adventskalender. 40g of beans for each day up to Xmas. First one was from Kenya. 10g didn't do much so did 2 15g shots in the Spaz 7g basket. Muddy puck but not too disastrously so.

Bean - most noticeable thing was sweetness and I'd say medium body, bit low for me.

Looks like some of them are flavoured - don't fancy that at all but the different country ones may be interesting.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've been using the La Spaz 7.5g basket for brewing 15g doses for the beans in our Kaffee Adventskalander. The puck can be a bit wet but not disastrously so. A bit more comes out of the grinder at times and it then goes pretty dry. Haven't tried this with the Sage double. This 7.5g would hold a lot more coffee. Their 14g may well hold more than the Sage double.

I've modified the after market La Spaz pod basket. Not done much with it yet other than stick my usual 9.3g in it. The puck comes out wet but again not disastrously so. This is off ebay uk and is ridgeless. It does sit a touch higher than the La Spaz baskets I bought of Amazon. May be down to the metal being thicker or the rad a slightly different shape. I'm finishing of some beans so not a good time to see how much it really holds at the moment. Capacity seems to be some where between the Sage single and double. Probably at the higher end but can't be sure.

Not disastrously so - well still troublesome for several drinks on the trot.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The ebay la spaz pod basket holds 13.4g of a rather fine grind when trimmed with the razor tool. There was still room for grinds to expand further so it could hold more. Nice dry puck - something I wasn't expecting ground this fine.

It looks like it could fill one hole in Sages range but is still a big step over 9,xg. It's more like a standard double. Nice step down from the Sage one.

Posted elsewhere but thought a note here was worthwhile to keep it all together. I think the la spaz 7.5g is similar to the Sage double.

John

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