# Using filter roast for espresso?



## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

Square Mile have accidentally sent some filter roast instead of my usual Red Brick, this : https://shop.squaremilecoffee.com/products/chelbesa. I don't own any filter equipment nor do I have the inclination to look into how to make filter coffee (I have no clue nor interest). What can I expect if I try to use it for espresso? How can I make the most of it? Or is it going to end up a waste of coffee and best to gift it to someone who drinks filter?

Thanks


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

Something labelled an espresso roast is just roasted a little further to develop sugars, take out some potential harshness in acidities, generally fits a flavour profile the roaster thinks is better suited to espresso extractions for that bean. Philosophies differ on this but for the most part the bottom line is there is no such thing as espresso roasts and filter roasts (which is why there are so many roast 'omni' profiles), so there's absolutely no reason why you can't use a filter roast for espresso and get a great shot out of it. Being a lighter roast, it may be harder than you're used to, and may expose weaknesses of your setup (e.g. temperature stability), but just go for it.


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## earthflattener (Jul 27, 2015)

I'd have a word with Square Mile. They sent you out the wrong item...and they are not cheap. They should send you the correct one. Hopefully they won't bother collecting the old one, so you get two for the price of a kidney.


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

earthflattener said:


> I'd have a word with Square Mile. They sent you out the wrong item...and they are not cheap. They should send you the correct one. Hopefully they won't bother collecting the old one, so you get two for the price of a kidney.


 Just in case someone comes across this thread, that's exactly what's happening. Square Mile have been fantastic. Proactively got in touch to apologise before I even got the wrong bag and they've sent the correct replacement in the post. Excellent customer service.

Thanks @catpuccino I'll try to grind finer


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@tripleshot - Lucky you! Sounds like you will have the best of both worlds to try now.

If your machine allows you may want to go finer on the grind like Cat said, also consider a longer preinfusion and a higher ratio so maybe 1:2.5 or 3 potentially.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

As Northern Monkey recommends, you will need to push extraction to get the best out of the filter roast as lighter roasts don't give up the coffee soluble elements as easily as darker roasts. In addition to Northern's advice, you might want to consider updosing by a gram.


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

Great advice thanks. So how does a filter roast differ from a lighter roast for espresso? Is there a difference?

I'm yo-yo'ing between lighter and darker roasts to figure out what I like at the moment so I've got some experience (mostly frustrating) with lighter roasts.

Thanks for the advice!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Catcuccino has answered that above. Roasters have roasting profiles for their beans so a filter roast will differ from an espresso one. Simplifying, things, there are two key timings in roasting - first and second crack. Espresso roasts will be taken further along the roasting path after first crack than filter roasts. Filter roasts can and do make good espresso but you have to alter your barisa routine as outlined above.


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## Bicky (Oct 24, 2019)

tripleshot said:


> Just in case someone comes across this thread, that's exactly what's happening. Square Mile have been fantastic. Proactively got in touch to apologise before I even got the wrong bag and they've sent the correct replacement in the post. Excellent customer service.
> 
> Thanks @catpuccino I'll try to grind finer


 I've had a similar experience with Square Mile. They once sent me 500g instead of the 1kg I'd ordered. I emailed them and they were very quick and apologetic in response, and instead of simply sending out another 500g to make it up, they sent me another full 1kg!


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

Bicky said:


> I've had a similar experience with Square Mile. They once sent me 500g instead of the 1kg I'd ordered. I emailed them and they were very quick and apologetic in response, and instead of simply sending out another 500g to make it up, they sent me another full 1kg!


 Yes, customer service is second to none in my experience


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

Finally got round to using this for espresso. Roasted 30th September so had plenty of time to rest. Is sold out now on Square Mile but for reference the tasting notes are pineapple, dried apricot, juicy. This is a washed Ethiopian blend.

I followed advice in this thread and set the grind to fine (same kind of fine I used on other lighter roasts, seemed like a good starting point and I expected to have to go finer). It took 105 seconds to get 34g out! I then made 3 more shots progressively coarser (always aiming for 36g out in 30s, dose 18g). The last one was on very coarse setting (which would produce gushers on most other coffees) and still only managed 36g out in 53s!

Extraction has not been great at any setting. Started off ok, dark beads covering basket evenly, first shots at finer grind setting very slow to cover basket with beads, but nice initial flow, nice stripes, no obvious channeling or spritzing but then in the second half of the extraction the evenness was gone and I was left with just a thin weak bodied translucent stream coming from the middle.

Taste wise, again interesting (all with 110ml milk) . The ones that took a minute and a half did not taste bitter, in fact they ended up being the most enjoyable of the lot. The last ones (which were relatively fastest of the lot) tasted like not enough coffee flavour compounds were extracted, a bit sour and in my partner's words with a twang? (still struggle to adequately describe taste).

So, I knew from the start this would be a hard bean to work with but I was surprised at the grind setting. In fact, I'm puzzled how coarse I've had to go and flow rate is still so very slow (53s). That coupled with the fact that in the second half of the extraction the espresso stream is weak, translucent and thin means I'm a bit puzzled what to try next. I was initially aiming for 40g out or a bit longer ratio but seemed pointless given the poor extraction in the second half of the shot. Shall I go coarser still until I hit 30s or so or shall I go back to finer and tinker with a much lighter tamp?

I have never tried pre-infusion (I have Profitec Pro 700, water tank not plumbed in). I have no idea how to start playing with that. Any tips? I remember coming across a post on home barista saying they use a water spray to spray the coffee bed a few times AFTER being tamped for some re-infusion of sorts.

Any advice greatly appreciated


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

Oh, brew temp is 95C


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tripleshot said:


> Taste wise, again interesting (all with 110ml milk) . The ones that took a minute and a half did not taste bitter, in fact they ended up being the most enjoyable of the lot.


 Doesn't this answer your question somewhat? Especially with regard to 1:2 shots.

Otherwise you need to go longer in ratio & not worry about the shot speeding up.


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

It's not that the shot is speeding up as such but what is coming out is pale, weak and translucent, does that not mean there's no more to extract and letting the shot continue is pushing it past the point of diminishing returns? Or have I got that wrong.

Also, a 105s extraction is way over the recommended ballpark. I'm happy to ignore time altogether but when shot time is that long, should I not try to get closer to the ballpark by adjusting grind?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

tripleshot said:


> It's not that the shot is speeding up as such but what is coming out is pale, weak and translucent, does that not mean there's no more to extract and letting the shot continue is pushing it past the point of diminishing returns? Or have I got that wrong.
> 
> Also, a 105s extraction is way over the recommended ballpark. I'm happy to ignore time altogether but when shot time is that long, should I not try to get closer to the ballpark by adjusting grind?


 Don't let the colour of the stream dictate your shot, it will go lighter quicker due to the roast. 
if it's tastes good ignore time , ballpark is what tastes good , not how long it takes .


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

tripleshot said:


> It's not that the shot is speeding up as such but what is coming out is pale, weak and translucent, does that not mean there's no more to extract and letting the shot continue is pushing it past the point of diminishing returns? Or have I got that wrong.
> 
> Also, a 105s extraction is way over the recommended ballpark. I'm happy to ignore time altogether but when shot time is that long, should I not try to get closer to the ballpark by adjusting grind?


 Don't worry about how it looks. If it tastes good don't worry about it (time or how it looks).

If you want to try a longer ratio then try it, either with a slightly coarser grind or with the grind the same. You could, of course, go much coarser to bring the shot time down to around 30-40 seconds for a ratio somewhere around 2-3 to see what the result is; it may surprise you if you've been getting channeling on your slower shots.

You can't alter pre-infusion on your machine without the bianca paddle or ecm/profitec flow thing. I experimented with slightly lowering the lever of a traditional E61 (to stop the pump without venting) and didn't enjoy any of the results.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tripleshot said:


> It's not that the shot is speeding up as such but what is coming out is pale, weak and translucent, does that not mean there's no more to extract and letting the shot continue is pushing it past the point of diminishing returns? Or have I got that wrong.
> 
> Also, a 105s extraction is way over the recommended ballpark. I'm happy to ignore time altogether but when shot time is that long, should I not try to get closer to the ballpark by adjusting grind?


 colour extracts faster than solids, so if you pull a very long shot it will nearly all be pale & translucent. There shouldn't be a difference in extraction, compared to shorter, well extracted shots.

There is no real ball-park for time. Illy suggest 15-50s, but time doesn't brew coffee, grind size does.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

If you didn't taste your espresso before adding milk, I would try that as a good guide. I didn't, and now I do ad it helps a lot. Stir it as well. Most drinks in milk can be acceptable and hide how well you're dialled in.

FWIW I'm using a 'filter roast' right now from Roundhill to try and understand light roasts a bit better. I ended up settling at 1:2 to start with. It is still in your face acidic and strong, but anything either side was bitter or sour. I ended up grinding fine enough to be reasonably slow - 50s total with 15s PI.

I haven't tried, but I would guess 1:3 could also be acceptable but would just need a different grind to suit a different brew time required.

I would guess it would at least a similar brew time or perhaps longer as it would need a slightly coarser grind to yield more. I might give that a go.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I drink quite a lot of Ethiopian and usually find it wants a coarser grind than most other coffees I've had, so I'm not unduly surprised your shots are slow. Lighter roasts will tend towards fruit and acidity, I very often find 18:45 in anything up to a minute gives a nice balance. Weirdly, some coffees taste best when pulled coarse and fast, say 18:38 in under 25 seconds. You just have to play around to get something you like. Don't be put off by the term 'filter roast'


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

Thank you all, I'll try these suggestions and report back. @hotmetalthat was going to be my final question as it goes against what I've read and been told in that lighter roasts require a finer grind not a coarser grind, which threw me here.

I have tried tasting the espresso neat before adding milk but I really don't like the taste of it so even for learning purposes I'd find it hard to judge whether it tastes good! I have started pulling 2 shots back to back where I tweak one variable (usually grind or yield, sometimes temp) and maybe I can try tasting the espresso neat there as all I'd need to do is judge the shots relative to each other (even if I dislike the taste of both I could hopefully tell which one I dislike least!)


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I like espresso and although I mainly make flat whites I usually sip the espresso first and if it's a belter I don't bother with the milk. If you find it too intense, but want to taste it for learning purposes, you can add some hot water like people do with scotch.

To be clear, I meant lighter roasts usually need a tighter grind than the same bean roasted darker; many Ethiopian beans often need to be ground a bit coarser than other origins (such as Uganda) at a similar roast degree, if you follow. And there are exceptions!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tripleshot said:


> Thank you all, I'll try these suggestions and report back. @hotmetalthat was going to be my final question as it goes against what I've read and been told in that lighter roasts require a finer grind not a coarser grind, which threw me here.


 The solubility of coffee varies greatly with its origin, as well as roast level (I don't specifically mean colour, as I have had more under-developed darker roasts than light).

So a light roast, low solubility coffee might need a finer grind, but a more soluble light/med roast might not - *at the same brew ratio.*

If your method works reasonably, you might only need small changes to keep a whole bunch of coffees extracting properly.

The main reason we grind coarser in percolation (for a given water delivery rate) is to extract properly at a longer brew ratio. We grind finer for shorter brew ratios.

If a coffee/roast level is lower solubility (but developed), then pushing more water through the puck would be a simple way of extracting more, if still concentrated/thick enough to enjoy.

So you have to tie in grind size to brew ratio. Simply making assumptions about light/med/dark & grind doesn't work.


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

MWJB said:


> The solubility of coffee varies greatly with its origin, as well as roast level (I don't specifically mean colour, as I have had more under-developed darker roasts than light).
> 
> So a light roast, low solubility coffee might need a finer grind, but a more soluble light/med roast might not - *at the same brew ratio.*
> 
> ...


 This is super useful. I had no idea and certainly learned something new.

Finished the coffee and settled on 18g in, 45g out in 50-60s and really enjoyed every cup, so much so that I'm looking for other beans on the market from Chelbesa. I see Foundry have got a new Chelbesa coffee out. The last coffee that I found this memorable was Costa Rica Las Palomas from @Black Cat Coffee.

I'm swimming in coffee at the moment, need to up my intake so I can sample all these lovely offerings out there! Not sure how others feel but for me, coffee is one of the few pleasures to look forward to in this grim Covid winter!

I also learned to relax a little when the extraction doesn't look great or takes too long. Do people get wiser and chilled when it comes to making coffee as they become more experienced?


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

tripleshot said:


> Square Mile have accidentally sent some filter roast instead of my usual Red Brick, this : https://shop.squaremilecoffee.com/products/chelbesa. I don't own any filter equipment nor do I have the inclination to look into how to make filter coffee (I have no clue nor interest). What can I expect if I try to use it for espresso? How can I make the most of it? Or is it going to end up a waste of coffee and best to gift it to someone who drinks filter?
> 
> Thanks


Why don't you just tried it imagining that you didn't know it was for filter? Could be fun









Sent from my ALP-L09 using Tapatalk


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## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

tripleshot said:


> !I also learned to relax a little when the extraction doesn't look great or takes too long. Do people get wiser and chilled when it comes to making coffee as they become more experienced?


 Yes, and not just with coffee.


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## big dan (Apr 11, 2012)

I have a filter subscription form Square Mile and I regularly throw some beans in my espresso grinder and make shots on my Rocket and usually pretty good results.

Just my 2 cents but i still got decent espressos from a filter roast


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