# Advice on machine and grinder purchase



## Raider (Aug 14, 2017)

Hi All,

I'm new to the forum, and looking to make my first purchase of a coffee machine and grinder.

By way of background, I never used to drink coffee, but then got hooked after a year living in Italy, and have been constantly longing for a good cup. For the last few years, I've been using a stovetop Moka at home, but feel it's time to take the plunge and buy a proper grinder and machine.

While this is my first purchase of a pair, I have in the past been susceptible to upgradeitis with other purchases, so would like to get something that is going to last me for several (5-10+) years rather than something I'd be looking to trade up from.

Here are a few relevant details:

*Usage:* I live alone and so this is mainly for myself and occasional guests. I have a cappuccino daily in the morning, and usually an espresso or macchiato in the afternoon. On weekends, I may have a third coffee at some point. I enjoy the coffee at the Bottega coffee shop in London when the good baristas are at the machine (a Cimbali) but would like to be able to make an equally good coffee at home.

*Budget:* I have flexibility here, but hoping to get something around GBP 2,000 all-in for the grinder and machine pair. While I'm sure good deals can be had, I don't think I have enough of an eye to deal with the second-hand market, and so am looking to buy new.

The priority for me is something that delivers a consistently good cappuccino and espresso. Looks are important, but secondary to taste and build quality.

I work and live in central London, and expect to be here for the forseeable.

Based on some research on this forum and Coffeegeeks, the following are the machines I was considering:

Ponte Vecchio Lusso - GBP 770

Nuova Simonelli Oscar II - GBP 857

Elektra S1CO Micro Casa Lever - GBP 898

Expobar Leva Dual Boiler - GBP 1,185

Elektra Micro Casa Semiautomatica - GBP 1,279

*It's a stretch for the budget, but any thoughts on the Cimbali M21?

The grinders that have come up in my research were:

Eureka Mignon - GBP 280

Mahlkonig Vario - GBP 369

What do people think of the options above? Which combo would be best? Any others I should be considering? Any thoughts on retailers between Coffee Italia, Bella Barista, and others? Any suggestions of retailers I can actually visit in person in London?

Thanks in advance for your help and guidance!


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Hello and Welcome to the forum ,

Great introduction ,you are asking a question that gets asked a lot , there is a bewildering choice out there and I am sure there will be other members who will welcome you and be able to give you some imput .

There s a lot more to creating espresso at home than people ever consider , all I can say is be patient , read loads and ask plenty of questions you will find the forum is full of friendly characters who can answer plenty of queries.

My input at this point would be above all, you will need to find a source of good freshly roasted beans , as without this

Any equipment you purchase will be superfluous.

good luck on your journey


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Hello and welcome to the forum. You've definitely come to the right place to help in your search for machine and grinder. There is a lot of experience and knowledge here, and you get some helpful advice.

My only input based on my similar journey and price range to yourself, is to spend more on the grinder than you have budgeted here, or you will probably want to upgrade sooner (much sooner in my case). With good, freshly roasted beans, the grinder will define what's in your cup just as much as the espresso machine.

Good luck, and have fun on your journey.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Hi Raider, welcome aboard.

I have the same usage as you intend, and my current setup is a Profitec 700 (read it: Dual Boiler with e61, like the Expobar you listed) and a Kinu M68, which is a manual grinder.

One of the great advantages of the e61 group head paired with a dual boiler machine is consistency and thermal stability. However, the e61 takes a good 45min to heat up from cold, which means most of us have a Wemo (or equivalent) which turns the machine on in the morning, and then either leave the machine on all day or turn on/off for the second coffee of the day (I personally do the latter).

You certainly have a good range of machines there: Oscar, which is a Heat Exchanger machine, The Expobar Dual boiler (name says it all) and a three lever machines. Interestingly enough, you have not shortlisted the La Pavoni Europicola or Professional. Any reason?

Do you prefer Heat Exchanger or Dual boiler? Is your heart set on a lever machine with fast heat up time?

My understanding is that the PV Lusso is not that great and you will be in purgatory when something goes wrong, according to my research. Few people here have the Expobar Dual boiler. Oscar as far as I know is a great choice too, providing you are OK with an HX machine.

Now, grinder.... If I were you, I'd spent 600-700 on the grinder (or less if you would go second hand, and the rest on the machine).

Good luck with your choices and enjoy the journey!


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## Dougy Giro (Aug 8, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Hi Raider, welcome aboard.
> 
> I have the same usage as you intend, and my current setup is a Profitec 700 (read it: Dual Boiler with e61, like the Expobar you listed) and a Kinu M68, which is a manual grinder.
> 
> ...


Thats what I am on the lookout for too a grinder around the £700 mark (or a more expensive when new one, at that price).


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## DaveP (Jul 14, 2017)

> Interestingly enough, you have not shortlisted the La Pavoni Europicola or Professional. Any reason?


That would be because Raider has not had the epiphany moment... sometimes comes to peeps about 3 months after taking delivery of their latest all singing and dancing electronic marvel


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## Raider (Aug 14, 2017)

First of all, thank you all for the warm welcome and helpful replies!!



MediumRoastSteam said:


> Hi Raider, welcome aboard.
> 
> I have the same usage as you intend, and my current setup is a Profitec 700 (read it: Dual Boiler with e61, like the Expobar you listed) and a Kinu M68, which is a manual grinder.
> 
> ...


In terms of these very helpful points, here are my comments:

I didn't shortlist the *La Pavoni* because while looking at a Youtube video of a lever machine comparison the (I think German coffee shop) poster was not very complimentary about the Pavoni relative to the Elektra, complaining about build quality. I recognize that one review does not a reputation make, so happy to consider Pavoni!

*Re: Heat Exchange vs. Dual Boiler*, I don't have a strong preference either way. I had read that HX technology has improved to the point where there are some good comparisons and that the HX boiler size may be preferable to two small dual boilers... does that sound right? To be clear, it is very important to me that I be able to produce both an excellent cappuccino (can't start my morning without one!) AND an excellent espresso or macchiato later in the day.

*Re: lever machines*, I am also open-minded. The appeal was the look and talk about how they produce excellent coffee. I'm more than willing to go up the learning curve, so that's less of an issue. One concern I had was machine height. I have a lot of counter space, but was hoping to stick the machine between my counter and kitchen cabinets, and the lever machines seem to need more height. That said, if the coffee is that much better, I'm more than happy to work around the space issue.

On the question of the *grinder*, I sensed that I may be devoting too little budget, but in my research thus far the Vario and Mignon kept coming up. If we were to increase the grinder budget to GBP 500-1,000, which models would people suggest?

Another consideration I just thought of was *water quality*... I currently live in a rental, and the water is quite hard in this flat. Are any of the above options especially good/bad in this situation? I don't want to make the decision purely on water quality, as I may move eventually and am wondering if bottled water is a suggested workaround, but thought I'd ask.

Thank you again for your kind welcome and advice!


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## Raider (Aug 14, 2017)

As a quick followup: for the grinder, I really would like to have a mechanical one. I currently use Hario and Porlex hand grinders with decent results, but would like something less manually intense.


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## Raider (Aug 14, 2017)

Based on some additional research, including a helpful PM from a member on grinders, here's what I'm thinking in terms of grinders:

I *think* I'd prefer having a normal beans in hopper constantly arrangement, but would prefer on demand dispensation to a doser.

I lean to light roast, which I am told would suggest large flat burrs.

Prefer electronic to hand.

Having read more on new vs. used, I'm willing to dip my toes into the used market for the grinder.

Currently thinking a Mazzer Super Jolly or Major in the used market could fit the bill. Also curious about Fiorenzatos, but finding less about them. Any thoughts of the relative merits of these grinders given the above? Any others I should consider?

Thanks again for all your advice.


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## Raider (Aug 14, 2017)

Update:

I have now bought a Cimbali Magnum grinder second-hand. It was in working order but filthy, and I've spent the weekend in a semi-successful effort to get it cleaned up.

I'm focusing my budget now on the espresso machine, which I'd like to buy new. Bellabarista suggested a Rockett Appartamento, but I've been eyeing the Expobar Leva Dual Boiler. Any thoughts between the two? If I go with the Expobar, is there any difference in shot quality between the version for tank only vs. tank + plumb-in? I don't anticipate plumbing this machine in anytime (my flat has very hard water, so thinking of using bottled Volvic water) but curious about any brew quality differences.

I should add that I was looking for lever options too. One concern is quality of milk-based drinks. Should I assume that a level-machine in the GBP 1-1,500 range can deliver the same quality cappuccino as an HX or Dual Boiler? Also, the only retailer that I've seen get consistently high reviews is BellaBarista, and they have a limited lever selection. Are there any other online (or preferably London-based with physical presence) options I should consider for levers (Pavoni or otherwise)?

Thanks again for all your help!


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

Raider said:


> I should add that I was looking for lever options too. One concern is quality of milk-based drinks. Should I assume that a level-machine in the GBP 1-1,500 range can deliver the same quality cappuccino as an HX or Dual Boiler?


Curious as to why you would think a lever machine would produce any worse a milk-based drink than a HX/DB? Some lever machines can produce excellent shots, the steam wand even on the cheaper La Pav's are said to be very capable of creating good textured milk and could do it just as good as a HX/DB depending on the person using it.

Your cappuccino is only going to be as good as the shot *you *pull and the quality of the milk *you *steam, the levers produce just as good steam as the HX/DB machines, but if you dont know how to texture or pull a decent shot then you are going to get a bad cappa from either one.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

A very large percentage of your drink is going to contain water , the quality of this water is paramount to success.

Having a tanked machine makes it easier to use the water of your choice .


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## Raider (Aug 14, 2017)

As an update, I sprang for a Pavoni Professional machine. I just received it, and while it looks beautiful, I found the lever a bit loose. It's fully attached, but wiggles sideways. Is this normal?


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