# Descaling the DB - :( again



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Finally found why the brew boiler wasn't always draining. The shower screen that I am using but suspect the same may happen with the standard one. It still didn't drain after a full back flush. It did as soon as I loosened it. In future I am going to take it out before descaling. I had noticed that a drain could need one of the long pushes on the one shot button to get it draining and suspect this is why. That was with the original screen.

I decided to run 2 descale cycles with the same fluid in. Easily done by not draining it and a short push to go to the next cycle. I also loaded it with another bacth of descaler and did the same again. I get very soft water and we have a hot water dispenser that starts to act up if it scales. I found that if I give it 40mins it doesn't act up until well after the descale indicator on it comes on.

So I suspect I will always run the same descale solution twice and then save time on the flushing by skipping to the next flush after the timer has run down by 6min or more.

Also no problems draining the brew boiler first. It's easier to see what's going on that way round - no steam from draining the steam boiler.

 All academic in the future as

https://www.sageappliances.com/uk/en/products/espresso.html

aren't showing the DB any more. No problem elsewhere in Europe just the UK. If I do buy Sage again it's now the only model I would buy. While the others are ok in real terms who goes backwards?

John

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## AndyJH (Apr 25, 2017)

I still avoid descaling my DB as I know it's problematic. Last time it was done was when I had the Coffee Classics engineer in and he had trouble with it as it display an error due to the water probes being wet at the end of the cycle, from memory. He knew how to get around this issue but I wouldn't like to attempt it!

The DB is still listed on the Sage site so I think we are safe for a while yet  Would love one with auto steam wand though, that would be my perfect machine....


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Your just asking for problems and will have them eventually. They can be pretty bad. The engineers usually tell people to descale all Sage machines once a month. Good reasons too but probably over the top for the DB if people have soft tap water. Lack of descaling seems to be the problem they have to fix most often.

The reason that you needed the level probes cleaning is probably lack of descaling.

In some manuals now they suggest that an alternative water source is found if hardness is above a certain level and on the DB I would suggest that people set the descale at least 1 test strip harder than the strips indicate.

 Also maybe remove the shower screen but do drain the brew boiler first to be sure it has. That's the one on the left. Sage say one on the right first. Why they say machine of for 40min beats me. Hot steam will come out when the descaler or the flushes are drained.

LOL Glad to see it's back on their site but it definitely wasn't when I looked. Now if only they would put the flow meter in the right place but I can put up with that.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Something else that may crop up. I suspect this is down to messing up a descale. That happened to me when the solenoid was buzzing, cured by dismantling it and cleaning off very little fine whitish sludge of the seal in it with my finger. The machine has been descaled and descale still appears in the display. This has been reported before on here but it eventually went away. Didn't on mine and if this can happen I thought there must be a way of clearing it. There is

Press and hold the 1 and 2 cup buttons for 4 secs and then press the power button.

The display will show 00 00

Press the menu button. The display will show the shot count divided by 10.

Then use the arrow key. This scrolls through a list of fault codes along with the counts.

After 12 of those the display changes to something like reset and a button lights up

Press and hold that button until the machine beeps. This clears the faults and also the descale indication.

 Obviously do make sure the machine has been descaled before doing this.

The fault codes are

00 Steam Boiler NTC Error

01 Steam boiler NTC Error

02 Coffee boiler NTC Error

03 Coffee boiler NTC Error

04 Group head NTC Error

05 Group head NTC Error

06 No Water In Steam Boiler

07 Water over flow condition in steam boiler

08 Coffee Water Flow Failure

09 No water in Coffee Boiler detected at Boot Up

10 Coffee NTC Over temp

11 Steam NTC Over Temp

12 Goup Head NTC Over Temp

I had 3 number 9's. Not sure how I got those but my machine is a refurb. One might be when I first powered the machine up and another when the first owner did. A reset to factors settings might mean the machine does a reboot again or when the machine is unplugged.

If some one has the other faults it might be worth clearing them in case it's a software whoopsy. All sorts of things may cause some of them when there is a real fault.

John

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## AndyJH (Apr 25, 2017)

The CC engineer that has come out to me a couple of times played down the importance of descaling and didn't recommend do it so often. I use only bottled water in mine but no idea if that helps or nor?? He said the fault with the probes was more a function of the software i.e. it checks to see if they are dry almost immediately after the tanks are drained and invariably they retain a bit of moisture on them so they throw up a fault code as it thinks the tank isn't empty, this maybe why it wants the machine to be off for 40 mins?

Useful way to check the fault codes and shot count, will be interested to see mine when I get home. We should have a highest count comp ?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

LOL You'll have to beat 1770 to the nearest 10.

The probes do need cleaning from time to time. Why I don't know but suspect descaling will help keep them clean.

40mins doesn't matter really due to the flushes. Those are usually done immediately after the machine has reheated. Also no valve error when I wasn't draining the brew boiler.

Actually the engineers comment doesn't make much sense. They use 2 spaced probes and look for conduction between them. 3 in the steam boiler 2 of which sense at different levels.

Eeeeeeeeeek no engineer needed here so far and I hope that continues. ?

It seems some bottled water does help. Depends what's in it. I understand people still flush the tanks now and again and it may as well have descaler in it. I get rather soft water out of the tap. I suspect one simple check for scale is steam being available as soon as 93C pops up / or very very shortly after. The steam boiler may still be making some slight boiling noises. No 3 beeps - that's what it does if steam hasn't reached temperature.

John

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## AndyJH (Apr 25, 2017)

3220 ?


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## AndyJH (Apr 25, 2017)

My error codes are;

9 number 8's

3 number 9's


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Maybe the 8's are down to chocking the machine. Never done that on the DB.  Or maybe it was choked up with scale. LOL Cheap coffee / shot so you can afford to throw it away.

John

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## AndyJH (Apr 25, 2017)

I've not chocked the machine to my knowledge but I am the third owner so who know's about it's history....

It has been descaled by the CC engineer and I will probably give it another go soon, expect a post of how to clear errors post descale..... Just descaled my girlfriends Bambino and that went well, feeling brave ?


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## AndyJH (Apr 25, 2017)

Well tried a descale and yup, it failed ?

First press of the manual button and I got the 'valv' error as I thought I would. Been trying to flush through ever since. Seems to be coming back to life slowly but filling the boilers is painful.

Are the newer machines any better? I am tempted to buy a new one and retire my old girl ?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

One thing my extended descale has done is make the level sensor probes work more cleanly. No more water to the boiler pause and oh lets add some more and maybe the same again.

I have had the oh lets add more water during a descale as well suggesting I've left it too long but got away with it.

 Some how I suspect you have been hoisted by your own petard. Even though I am not entirely sure what a petard is.

Shakespeare's phrase, "*hoist* with *his own petard*", is an idiom that *means* "to be harmed by one's *own* plan to harm someone else" or "to fall into one's *own* trap", implying that one could be lifted (blown) upward by one's *own* bomb, or in other words, be foiled by one's *own* plan.

I did think it was a bomb.

All I can suggest is back flush 1st. Remove the shower screen. Do the brew boiler first, the one on the left not the one on the right as Sage suggest. The water should run out cleanly and just stop. Also don't wait for the machine to really cool. When a descale is drained the steam boiler will produce a lot of steam and is clearly over 100C. Brew is lower than usual. So I'd suggest 1/2hr from fully heated up max. Maybe shorter. It should really shoot out when the steam is drained and the valve may hammer a bit when it's part open. There is also no need to do these back up really tight. Just nip them up.

If you have O rings I doubt if cleaning the level sensor is much of a problem. They are the larger diameter things going into the boilers. Not the ones that carry he brew water through the steam boiler. Those have shrouds on them. I have reused an O ring by getting it out with a cocktail stick and fitting it on the pipe before pushing the lot home. Also wrecked one by leaving it in and pushing the pipe into it. They tend to get left behind when things are pulled out. I'm intending to change the lot. For what they cost each it's not worth risking an eventual leak. I'll do it when I think the machine is 2 years old.

New one? There's a link to some black ones for £700 around. I'm tempted but best stick to what I want to do. Run it into the ground fixing as far as I can when things go wrong.

3 things I have learned. The machine doesn't ask for back flushes often enough. DaveC probably asks for them too often. Set the hardness number to the test strip - same problem it needs doing more frequently. Do drain brew first to be sure it has drained - looks to me like that doesn't generate a valve error or maybe just enough was coming out to fox the level sensors. The steam boiler uses 3 sensors, 1 ground, a max level and a min level. That's so that they don't have to pump cold water in when steaming milk. Never has when I have used mine. My son usually steams 600ml of the stuff and over does it.

John

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## AndyJH (Apr 25, 2017)

Possibly and I can understand why you say that. It's an old machine and I have no idea of it's history really but I was put off the descale but it doing exactly this when the CC engineer did it. He knew how to fix immediately and said this was a common problem on them so I have avoided and used bottled water ever since I've owned it.

It's back up and running now. Had problems with the steam boiler not filling, classic 3 bleeps problem and no steam, eventually sorted that.

I did see the £700 deals and this is what I am tempted by but this descale issue does make me hesitate a little. Also the one thing I really like about mine is due to it being a Breville machine an not a Sage, it doesn't auto off in 20 mins ? I can set it to stay on if i want but I have it set to an hour I think currently, 20 mis is just retarded...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I just turn on when I need it and off when the shot(s) is (are) pulled. I don't find the 3min it takes to heat up a problem. I expected to need to preheat the portafilter but found much to my surprise it doesn't make any difference. It did on the BE I had. Initially for speed I did it the same way as I did on the BE. Shot through an empty pressurised basket. Also tried leaving in for 15min. This doesn't seem to be anything to do with using an open bottom portafilter. Good job to as using a pressurised basket in that would really make a mess.

Personally I wonder about bottled water. There are always a list of things in water and I believe boilers should be drained and cleaned periodically any way. I thonk @MildredM uses some mix of the stuff but still has her machine serviced every 2 years. No idea what that costs. The repair aspect is a problem in some ways but doesn't that depend on a persons will to open a machine up and fix it ? Some wont or don't want to do this. Sage dearer or cheaper than others ??? Don't know but I have a suspicion going on out of date parts costs.

I had the engineer in on the BE. Manufacturing fault. He covers what might be called the northern midlands. Talking about this area he says descale every month not being specific about which machines and he did say even the DB when I queried it. That area covers very variable water hardness. The jungle recently mentioned Sage saying 4 to 6 weeks in the uk.  Jungle, that's what I call rumours.

3 beeps and no broken machine sounds lucky to me. What can happen is a boiler overheating as it didn't fill properly. Sounds like level probes You saw an engineer clean them. I haven't but that wouldn't stop me from trying. The first refurb I had did this. Pumps ran too long making noises they shouldn't. On that heat up it would steam for the first 5 mins or so and then beeps as the heating had been turned off and wouldn't ever come on again.

One problem from a users point of view is that Sage don't offer a service. Things get fixed when they are broken. People are unlikely to take a look inside every few months as DaveC suggests for all machines.  Great ain't it, espresso machines don't like water especially if there are traces of all sorts in it. It seems a bit fundamental to me.

Anyway people make a choice and I'm inclined to think that all round it's hard to beat. They are even paranoid about water coming into contact with brass and aluminium. They do know how to use O rings. Their life time is a problem I suppose but then found that they make a sensible choice of materials. A few may be exotic types, I'm thinking about ones in the drain valves.

Also just checked heat up time. 2min 55 sec and steam available immediately but I would wait a little longer before using that. Scale in the steam boiler will delay it heating up. Last used at around 4pm, 7+hrs ago and the boiler was at 24C initially.

John

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