# Good explanation of tamping for beginners



## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Ello folks,

THIS helped me understand tamping a little bit better. It's not technical just simple.

Hope it helps you too.

Cheers

Phil


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Not heard of the "Staub Tamp" before - wouldn't he be better off with a closely fitted tamper and tamping just once - I suppose he is training people for the commercial market where the tools supplied may be lacking quality or fit.

Hmm makes me wonder if any of the chains pay attention to these kind of details- but I doubt it.

Seems like a good starting guide, cheers


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Don't think many people advocate tamping with 30-40lb pressure these days with little evidence to suggest excessive tamping force has any impact on flow rate than lighter tamp pressures.


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

My tamp is slightly small by about 1mm so it will help if people have bought stuff without thinking.

It was mainly the explanation of what it does to the grinds and the result that i found informative

Thanks

Phil


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

When is that article from .... Staub is proper old school

Tamping like tampers themselves can be quite a personal thing , and there would be no one " correct consensus " on how hard you should push and even in what direction .....

The thing is to get a decent fitting tamper - get the coffee even in the basket - and then tamp the same way each time - preferably using a naked pf to see if all thisi is lining up and you are getting the taste in the cup you want .

I know people who all make me very tasty coffee , some will have the mantra of grind fine tamp , some will nutate , some will flat tamp , wsome will use calibrated tampers .. All in all if the staub is working for you , then all power to you , but i would not advocate it personally, its hard to do the same thing each time NSEW ...

Just to give you an idea here is another method advocated

https://baristahustle.com/how-hard-should-you-tamp/


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Sorry if I shouldn't have posted this here. I've only made about 6 espressos but I thought it was a good explanation for beginners of what tamping does tot he ground coffee without being overly technical, not so much the tamping technique.

Apologies.

Phil


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Phil66 said:


> Sorry if I shouldn't have posted this here. I've only made about 6 espressos but I thought it was a good explanation for beginners of what tamping does tot he ground coffee without being overly technical, not so much the tamping technique.
> 
> Apologies.
> 
> Phil


No apols necessary - there's loads of info out there which can be both bewildering and, at times, very contradictory. Also, fads, fashions and theories change.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

My first tamper was a bit too small and I found myself having to do that NSEW thing (intuitively) and this was what led me to just fork out £35 for a tamper that fitted. The article itself is not wrong (except the way it claims to be the 'proper' way, where as Mrboots2u says - there isn't one proper way, and things have moved on since). It might have been better if it had been entitled "how to make a decent effort of tamping even if your tamper is too small". But it does give some useful explanation so it may still be helpful.


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## caramel (Jun 22, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> When is that article from .... Staub is proper old school
> 
> Tamping like tampers themselves can be quite a personal thing , and there would be no one " correct consensus " on how hard you should push and even in what direction .....
> 
> ...


After I first read that article I subscribed to this theory too. If I tamp hard enough I will reach a point where it doesn't make a difference which removes a variable.

I haven't noticed a difference, if I tamp too light the shot comes out too fast and the puck is very soggy, but pushing pretty firmly always seems to give the same result.

The biggest difference for me was getting a tamper that actually fits the basket.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Agree with caramel. Tamp firm enough that it as good as eliminates tamping pressure as a variable (Obviously try to keep in consistent but I also think if you tamp until you can feel that the puck has compressed as much as it's going to without being silly, then it's likely to show less variance). Another equally valid method could be to get a nice heavy tamper that fits well (like a Torr) and just allow the tamper weight to to the job. That will work with the "grind fine tamp light" approach but with just the tamper weight each time you achieve reasonable consistency that way without having to develop muscle memory for a specific pressure. Main thing is that the grounds are well distributed and flat to start with, that the tamper goes in flat and level, and the pressure is consistent.


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## Rhubarb (Apr 10, 2016)

So the basic rule of thumb for tamping is ensure you have a good quality tamper that fits, ensure the coffee is evenly distributed and tamp once reasonably hard i.e. until you cant press the coffee down any further. Seem fair? I guess thats the best way to achieve a good level of consistency.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

That's a fair summary of one method. Although as I mentioned above, some prefer a very light tamp with a finer grind, so might just rely on the tamper weight itself. Then there is 'nutation' where you kind of roll or wiggle the tamper which seems to compress the edges and often has the effect of slowing the flow. Many finish off with a slight twist with no pressure when they pull the tamper out again to 'polish' the surface. I'm not quite sure what this really adds and have never heard an explanation for it except that it tidies up any loose grinds and may reduce suction as you pull the tamper out. It's something you see a lot of people do. I picked up the habit early on and continue to do it but it's hard to say why or how much it helps. I think the main thing is just to be level and consistent really.


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## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

Prompted by this article I just attempted to see roughly what gap there is between the outside edge of my tamper and the inner surface of the basket when about to commence the tamp. It's an unscientific 1.5mm or thereabouts. Obviously the gap reduces slightly (tapers) the more you lower the tamper into the PF.

Apart from the plastic tampers that come with the machines, I've not used any other tamper, so have nothing to compare it to. It was reckoned to be half decent when new in 2008 and wasn't especially cheap...it measures no more than 57mm.

Do others measure slightly more than 57mm? How would you know when buying a new tamper...until you got it home?

Does that sound about average?

EDIT. Just checked BB and they show 57, 58 and 58.4 mm tampers...so maybe mine is classed as 57mm and hence the gap?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

part of the challenge with tamper fit is the size of the basket and the precision with which the basket and tamper are made.

it's one of the reasons lots of people use VST baskets with 58.4mm tampers, the fit is very good.

The 58.4mm fits so snugly into the VST basket that you have to make sure you don't withdraw it too quickly creating a vacuum.

A well fitting tamper will reduce side channeling as you make sure the 1.5mm around the edges is being tamped just as well as the rest of the puck.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Phobic said:


> ...A well fitting tamper will reduce side channeling as you make sure the 1.5mm around the edges is being tamped just as well as the rest of the puck.


In another thread about 'gear that didn't work for you' I named my titanium 68.55mm flat tamper which surprised one or two folk so I brought it out of retirement to have another go and see if I could crack it.

My problem is near perfectly consistent donuts. The flow will appear in a ring around the outside of my VST basket about a half to one second before it appears in all the other holes even with 2bar preinfusion for c12s. In bad cases, you can see the center of the puck then slows down so the shots get properly underextracted. If I use my Reg Barber convex 68.5mm I avoid this effect.

I was looking this morning and I noticed that the top of my puck was very close to the in-basket ridge. (I'm using 17g / 18g in a 20g basket because the Vesuvius has a low shower screen.).

Has anyone else battled donuts and changed from ridged to unridged? Can anyone offer any techniques or insights. I'd really like to get this working for me.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

@onbnic 68.55


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I don't tap done no more and I changed the shower screen to a Kees one


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> @onbnic 68.55


Ha! Yes that would be the issue. Sorry, meant Torr Ti 58.55mm.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Here's my prep:

Weigh portafilter, then dose:



















Grind, moving PF around to distribute broadly evenly, then some gentle side tapping against palm to get better distribution at side of basket.










Tamp using edge of tamper as guide for level with basket rim - so firm finger pressure.










Pull shot. First pic is about 0.5s before the second shot. Pre-infusion was a bit short but otherwise ok.



















What am I doing wrong? Or rather what is my RB convex correcting?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Obnic said:


> convex


Have you tried a flat tamper?

How long into the pull does the doughnut last? how is the coffee tasting? any signs of over & under extraction?


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Phobic said:


> Have you tried a flat tamper?
> 
> How long into the pull does the doughnut last? how is the coffee tasting? any signs of over & under extraction?


The flat tamper is the one that gives me donuts.

Preinfusion takes about 10s at 2bar, ring appears, 0.5s later while puck is flowing. Post preinfusion extraction takes about 25s. It's controlled, I just get that initial donut if I use the flat tamper but not if I use the convex. Not sure why the puck doesn't deal against the basket sides given it's an ear perfect fit tamper.


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## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

Two quick points...

Notwithstanding the above - I haven't seen an answer that helps me in the replies and I'm still not sure if my tamper (the one that measures 57mm according to a domestic rule....I don't have a digital caliper) is failing me due to it's apparent poor fit in my new ECM stock basket. Since I posted the question above I searched on the site a bit and can see it's not a straightforward "yes" or "no" given the vast availability of specialist tampers and baskets...but an indication of whether a replacement is advisable or simply unnecessary will help a lot.

I definitely have to do a distinct NSEW procedure at the moment but maybe I'd need to continue doing that even with a wider, tamper?

I believe I can see occasional mini worm holes around the edges if I don't tamp hard enough. The debate over tamp pressure seems to be another subject for vast debate but I think I need to make sure I'm pressing at least 20 lbs and adjust the grind to suit, rather than lighten the tamp.

Second point....what's a doughtnut?


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

@Obnic can you take a video? Think it's fairly normal to see coffee around the edge first, can't really get a feel for timings without seeing it


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

DevonStan said:


> ...an indication of whether a replacement is advisable or simply unnecessary will help a lot.
> 
> The debate over tamp pressure seems to be another subject for vast debate...
> 
> Second point....what's a doughtnut?


Baskets come in a variety of different sizes hence the range of tamper base sizes. You can even buy custom made ones.

What I think can be agreed is that a close fit that does not create a vacuum tends to result in better extraction. Measure the internal diameter of your basket with a vernier calliper.

Is it necessary to replace your tamper... probably not but it will make life easier and more consistent if your tamper fits your basket. Mine are 58.5mm and 58.55mm because these fit my VSt baskets very closely.

A donut is a ring of coffee that appears at the bottom of the basket (see photos above) before it comes through all the other holes.

I apologise, I highjacked this thread because my convex tamper results in simultaneous arrival of coffee in all basket holes and a sweet balanced shot, whereas my 58.55 flat tamper gives me a consistent ring first and results in some astringency in the cup.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

fluffles said:


> @Obnic can you take a video? Think it's fairly normal to see coffee around the edge first, can't really get a feel for timings without seeing it


Timings are fine. 10s preinfusion, around 25s to deliver 29g from 16g coffee for this particular blend I'm grinding relatively coarse to avoid roasty flavours.

My problem is specific to tamper selection. If I do everything else the same but use a convex tamper I get no donut and 29g about in around 27s. I am clearly getting some initial channeling that the convex tamper prevents.

It's either a distribution thing (but WDT doesn't correct it) or disturbance of the puck rim when I take the tamper out (I am very careful). Or some other human inadequacy that I cannot spot.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Obnic said:


> Timings are fine. 10s preinfusion, around 25s to deliver 29g from 16g coffee for this particular blend I'm grinding relatively coarse to avoid roasty flavours.
> 
> My problem is specific to tamper selection. If I do everything else the same but use a convex tamper I get no donut and 29g about in around 27s. I am clearly getting some initial channeling that the convex tamper prevents.
> 
> It's either a distribution thing (but WDT doesn't correct it) or disturbance of the puck rim when I take the tamper out (I am very careful). Or some other human inadequacy that I cannot spot.


Sorry, by timings I didn't mean shot times I meant how quickly it takes for the coffee to appear in the centre of the bottomless PF - a video of the bottomless would be helpful.


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## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

Obnic said:


> Baskets come in a variety of different sizes hence the range of tamper base sizes. You can even buy custom made ones.
> 
> What I think can be agreed is that a close fit that does not create a vacuum tends to result in better extraction. Measure the internal diameter of your basket with a vernier calliper.
> 
> ...


All rcvd. Ta for that.

I've been in touch with the supplier (BB) and am in the process of receiving their recommendations for my specific machine. The possibilities, obviously enough, include another tamper (they suggest a Motta 58.4mm) and/or an alternative, competition, basket and/or an alternative, competition, shower screen. And I did mention whether I would benefit from a bottomless PF. Maybe my limited levels of competency don't warrant such stuff? But I'll receive any/all suggestions with gratitude and continue my endeavours.

Maybe this isn't the ideal thread for my enquiries. I'll look to see if it's better placed elsewhere.

Further thanks.


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## UncleJake (Mar 20, 2016)

DevonStan said:


> All rcvd. Ta for that.
> 
> I've been in touch with the supplier (BB) and am in the process of receiving their recommendations for my specific machine. The possibilities, obviously enough, include another tamper (they suggest a Motta 58.4mm) and/or an alternative, competition, basket and/or an alternative, competition, shower screen. And I did mention whether I would benefit from a bottomless PF. Maybe my limited levels of competency don't warrant such stuff? But I'll receive any/all suggestions with gratitude and continue my endeavours.
> 
> ...


Firstly - how happy are you with your coffee? If you love it you need look no further. If you feel that it could do with improvement - or indeed the rabbit hole beckons...

Personally - the naked PF would come first - then you can use it to identify any issues with your set-up/technique. Much as @Obnic is doing here.

The thing with competition screens/baskets is that they are both relatively cheap upgrades - and pretty unforgiving. It can get worse before it gets better! And once you step into the forest there's no way back...


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## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

UncleJake said:


> Firstly - how happy are you with your coffee? If you love it you need look no further. If you feel that it could do with improvement - or indeed the rabbit hole beckons...
> 
> Personally - the naked PF would come first - then you can use it to identify any issues with your set-up/technique. Much as @Obnic is doing here.
> 
> The thing with competition screens/baskets is that they are both relatively cheap upgrades - and pretty unforgiving. It can get worse before it gets better! And once you step into the forest there's no way back...


Top Man! You've put your finger on it!

I know that my skill doesn't match the machinery at the moment. I know that I don't enjoy the taste of the espresso I produce (however I rarely enjoy espresso anywhere...but am hoping this will come in time). I feel that even my cappuccinos could be better with improved taste. Even my foaming isn't wonderful, but is OK. Latte Art is not a skill I've ever developed but that doesn't really matter...admittedly it would be a bit of a novelty though 

As we speak...I've just put the phone down..the fella from the supplier just rang me after we exchanged a couple of emails. (I must sound like an advert for them, but I assure you I really am just a customer who is amazed at the helpfulness and efficiency of them).

He suggested.

1. Competition shower screen.

2. A 58.4mm Motta tamper that will fit my stock ECM basket better than the current 57mm one.

3. Bottomless PF.

He said don't go to the expense of a VST basket initially...consider it later. I may go for it now anyway.

He also offered advice about tamping pressures, grind settings and other usual stuff that gets spoken about here and on the other forums.

All the above is to be seen in the context of my drinking milk based almost exclusively.

All good stuff that I'm grateful for...both from the fella on the phone who supplied the machines and from contributors here, from whom I'm learning more every day.

Appreciate the advice, UncleJake.

We're getting there


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## UncleJake (Mar 20, 2016)

DevonStan said:


> Top Man! You've put your finger on it!
> 
> I know that my skill doesn't match the machinery at the moment. I know that I don't enjoy the taste of the espresso I produce (however I rarely enjoy espresso anywhere...but am hoping this will come in time). I feel that even my cappuccinos could be better with improved taste. Even my foaming isn't wonderful, but is OK. Latte Art is not a skill I've ever developed but that doesn't really matter...admittedly it would be a bit of a novelty though
> 
> ...


Good stuff.

Yes indeed - BB have a great reputation on here.

I have gone through a few tampers over the years, some very cheap and some high-end ones - my Motta still gets used, where most don't. Someone on here once made a nice Harry Potter analogy - 'you don't choose the tamper - the tamper chooses you'. You'll probably go through a few before one just feels right.

Yes - it's a shame you don't like espresso - milk can totally flatter your espresso and hide a multitude of sins, it's worth cultivating a knowledge of what under/over-extrated espresso tastes like - it'll help you dial in your beans better and thus produce much better cappuccino.

Good luck!


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## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

All rcvd. with thanks, as always.


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## jefferson17 (Nov 15, 2016)

I agree with boots - the most important thing is a tightly fitting tamper, followed by one with a good profile - I like a flat one with sharp edges. I have found that a light and consistent tamp pressure gives a nicer result than the traditional 30+ pounds.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Do get a VST basket now - if your getting one in the future then why not now, then at least your working with one less variable - when I started using a VST I was surprised at the difference it made - re tamp pressure I was talking to a lady who coached a barista to third place in the UK final she recons that if you have a good grinder excessive tamping force is wasted as the coffee will only compress so far, she said she often comes across mad tampers in commercial settings who are developing repetitive strain injury!!!


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## hun_kab (Oct 10, 2016)

My tamps are alway slanted to one side.....


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

hun_kab said:


> My tamps are alway slanted to one side.....


Position your finger tips on the edge of the tamper and use them to feel the edge of the basket/ PF. Do this then rotate 90 deg, this will give you an indication when your coffee is level.


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