# Ready to throw the damn thing out the window!



## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

This is hard, must.....get.....instruction......

Being an impatient git and definitely trying to make things consistent and repeatable is giving me headaches.

Yesterday was pretty good, 18g in, 40ish out in 27 seconds, i felt i was getting somewhere with a few minor tweaks life would become easier.......not so

Woke up this morning, heated the machine, warmed the head, weighed 18.something and into the grinder she goes. fluffed and levelled 18g in the PF, used the eazytamp to get a flat consistent tamp........24 out in 27 secs!!!!!!!!

Nothing has changed since yesterday. she is stern mistress!!!!!

for ref:

Machine : Sage DB

Grinder : Mazzer SJ

Coffee : Fudge by Rave

Scales : Amir 0.1g from Amazon

Tamper : eazytamp 5 something or other


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## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

Do you have a bottomless portafilter?

How are you distributing the grinds in the basket?

My guess would be channelling, although small changes from day to say are to be expected.


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## d_lash (Aug 30, 2014)

Don't fret too much about the recipes. When dialling in a bean for the first time i tend to aim for 18 in 27 out in 25-30sec, but I like small ratios and that's good for me. Did you taste the result? Was it nice? If so, relax! Was it not- great-but-drinkable? Ok, drink it and chalk it up to experience.

Where did the difference come from? Hard to say but getting into a routine, building all that muscle memory etc takes time. Consistent distribution I think is hardest to get. What are you doing to the coffee after it gets into the portafilter and are you watching the extraction in a bottomless portafilter? Does it look even? Are there dead spots etc?


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Thanks for the reply, i generally prefer longer blacks with a touch of cream.

Im not the biggest fan of mess, so a dose into the scales dish, then spoon it evenly into the portafilter, then a settling tap followed by using the eazytamp. the pour actually looks really good, but i do need to start tasting more, neat coffee without sugar and milk/cream makes me pull faces lol

I think more practice then some more might help but i follow a pretty strict process so i dont understand how this happens, maybe a need something shiny like a coffee distributer to lock in another element?


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

I'm no expert and still on a steep learning curve but from my own experience I've found that if the grind setting is the same it's probably down to distribution and tamping pressure/technique/consistency.

It's worth tasting every shot that you pull so you train your ability to spot the difference between sour and bitter. And if you're not going to drink it as espresso, make it into your drink of choice and if it tastes ok, drink it.

Record every shot you pull - coffee, grind setting, weight in/out and time - so you have clear reference points.

What's the roast date of your coffee?


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

As for a distribution tool - you could go for something shiny and expensive - or you could use a cocktail stick. Or mod a tiny whisk.










I saw a picture of the whisk mod on a post by @joey24dirt (cheers Joey) but I'm sure others on here use something similar. The whisks were £1.75 FOR TWO!!!!! which I think makes it the best value coffee accessory in the world.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

salty said:


> As for a distribution tool - you could go for something shiny and expensive - or you could use a cocktail stick. Or mod a tiny whisk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have literally just took a photo of mine haha.

Yeah a modified whisk works wonders for distributing


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

yup i need to be less impatient









The tamp should be consistent with an eazytamp applying the same pressure every time but distribution could be better i guess although i try to lay it in the basket evenly, thinking about getting a distribution tool to see if that helps but i have heard mixed reviews.

The grind hasnt changed and the shot timing i have left set by the machine to remove a variable.

Roast date was a couple of weeks ago.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> I have literally just took a photo of mine haha.
> 
> Yeah a modified whisk works wonders for distributing


i have been doing something similar with a sweetcorn thing:


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> I have literally just took a photo of mine haha.
> 
> Yeah a modified whisk works wonders for distributing


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Blunt the ends a bit and you're sorted 

What are they even called those things? A sweetcorn holder maybe?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

If you're grinding into something on the scales, try a cup. You shouldn't need to stir the grounds in the PF. Shake the cup then, using a funnel, dump your 18.0g into the PF, tap to settle & tamp.

Also, if weighing each dose, it only takes a few more seconds to ensure you have exactly 18.0g.

Don't stop the shot before you hit your target weight 18:45g in 27seconds may not be massively different to 18:45g in 37 seconds, but 18:24g will always be very different to 45g out at the same grind setting.

If you only drink long blacks, how much water are you adding?

Are you purging the first few g from the grinder & discarding this, so you only have the freshly ground dose in the PF?


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## SimonN (Feb 4, 2016)

Craig,

I wouldn't fix your extraction time at 27 seconds, the time is probably the least important thing (although it is an indication of the grind). Instead continue until you get your desired weight of coffee. If for example you are wanting 40g of espresso then carry on extracting until you have that. If it takes 27 seconds one time and 32 seconds the next I wouldn't lose sleep. Stopping the shot when it's 10g short will have a far bigger effect on taste!

Yes, in an ideal world your extraction time will be the same, and that's something to aim for, but it not critical if you have the fundamentals right i.e. even distribution, fresh coffee etc.

Just a thought about the different timings of your two shots - have you tried another this morning yet? What was the result? Is grinder retention playing a part here? If you weighed 18g in then was it the same 18g that you got out, or was is 5g's of yesterday's coffee. Do you purge or have a routine/method to prevent this (brushing or blowing for example)

Good luck,

Simon


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

MWJB said:


> If you're grinding into something on the scales, try a cup. You shouldn't need to stir the grounds in the PF. Shake the cup then, using a funnel, dump your 18.0g into the PF, tap to settle & tamp.
> 
> Also, if weighing each dose, it only takes a few more seconds to ensure you have exactly 18.0g.
> 
> ...


this is good advice, I need to get a funnel as that would help a bit. i do throw a few beans in to clear it out and then add my weighed dose, normally 18.x so that i get around 18.2 out.

I also need to reverse my process and go on weight before the time :/ schoolboy error.

hmm i never weigh water, just top it up so i need to be a bit more science-y about it


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

SimonN said:


> Craig,
> 
> I wouldn't fix your extraction time at 27 seconds, the time is probably the least important thing (although it is an indication of the grind). Instead continue until you get your desired weight of coffee. If for example you are wanting 40g of espresso then carry on extracting until you have that. If it takes 27 seconds one time and 32 seconds the next I wouldn't lose sleep. Stopping the shot when it's 10g short will have a far bigger effect on taste!
> 
> ...


I do go through a whole routine, throw in a few beens, brush and puff the lens hood to blow it all through. i then put in around 18.6-7 to make sure i get out at least 18.0g which i weigh.

i definitely need to switch from hitting the button which is timed, to doing it manually and stopping when the weight is right.

Thanks for all the advice, there are certain changes I need to make. Ill pull another shot shortly and update


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## Sweetmate (Apr 5, 2016)

Also consider the pre infusion. The oft-mentioned target time of 25-35 seconds is usually for an espresso extraction without any preinfusion. If you have left the DB at default then it does a 7 second pre infusion and doesn't really ramp up till about 10 seconds into the timer. I tend to look for about 35-42 seconds total with the DB, 27 seconds is only really about 20 seconds of actual extraction which might leave you leaning towards the sour and salty end of espresso, depending on the roast of your bean and the makeup of your water, and the temp of your extraction of course!!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

craigsalisbury said:


> hmm i never weigh water, just top it up so i need to be a bit more science-y about it


If you add enough water to make up a mugful, then you'll still need to add some, but may have more flexibility with brew ratio. But if you're just adding enough to open up the coffee, you might be able to skip the dilution step & just add your cream.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Nobody said home espresso was easy ....

Are both shots undrinkable after water and cream , I see that there a re differences in the times they take , but is this reflecting in the cup and if so to what degree.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sweetmate said:


> Also consider the pre infusion. The oft-mentioned target time of 25-35 seconds is usually for an espresso extraction without any preinfusion. If you have left the DB at default then it does a 7 second pre infusion and doesn't really ramp up till about 10 seconds into the timer. I tend to look for about 35-42 seconds total with the DB, 27 seconds is only really about 20 seconds of actual extraction which might leave you leaning towards the sour and salty end of espresso, depending on the roast of your bean and the makeup of your water, and the temp of your extraction of course!!


Time from hitting the brew switch to killing it. Preinfusion will be normalised to some extent by grind setting (finer with, coarser without).

If it takes 10s for any liquid (extract) to show, then that's 10s to displace the water in the puck, if displacing twice that takes another 27s that's 37seconds of extraction at 12s per replacement of liquid in the puck.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Sweetmate said:


> Also consider the pre infusion. The oft-mentioned target time of 25-35 seconds is usually for an espresso extraction without any preinfusion. If you have left the DB at default then it does a 7 second pre infusion and doesn't really ramp up till about 10 seconds into the timer. I tend to look for about 35-42 seconds total with the DB, 27 seconds is only really about 20 seconds of actual extraction which might leave you leaning towards the sour and salty end of espresso, depending on the roast of your bean and the makeup of your water, and the temp of your extraction of course!!


That is a damn good thought, i never even thought of preinfusion as a separate thing. i'll use the manual button and go by weight.

Thanks


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Time from hitting the brew switch to killing it. Preinfusion will be normalised to some extent by grind setting (finer with, coarser without).
> 
> If it takes 10s for any liquid (extract) to show, then that's 10s to displace the water in the puck, if displacing twice that takes another 27s that's 37seconds of extraction at 12s per replacement of liquid in the puck.


normally takes around 10 seconds in before any coffee flows from the head.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

I am sooo going to get the phone and take many photos of my next shot in a bit







ill also take some measurements of water etc.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Nobody said home espresso was easy ....
> 
> Are both shots undrinkable after water and cream , I see that there a re differences in the times they take , but is this reflecting in the cup and if so to what degree.


ooohhhh it was in my mind









as frustrating as it is, im learning a lot and everyone is giving me great advice. its certainly a bit sour at the moment.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Here we go, still a bit sour, running fast now :/









The flush

















Going in









Came out at 18.3 so discarded to give 18g









loaded and distributed with sweetcorn doo-dad









Tamp'd with eazytamp (a thing of beauty)

TBC..


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Just starting to flow at 11secs









The pour looks ok, maybe a little fast









40g is 26 secs :/









Not the worst looking cup I have seen though.

time to tighten that grind a little i guess


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

craigsalisbury said:


> View attachment 30902
> 
> 
> Just starting to flow at 11secs
> ...


How did it taste , adjust on the taste not the time ....


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:


> Thanks for the reply, i generally prefer longer blacks with a touch of cream.


Snap but I drink them with a touch of milk, semi skimmed too otherwise they taste like lard is mixed in with them. Running on from the filter basket thread I use a Sage Barista Express. Sage have done much the same thing there. A single is 8 to 10g and a double 16 to 18g, both larger than "commercial standards". What I have found is that some beans are too weak in the single and too strong in the double where that's filled to a level that will leave a dry puck, for instance if I stick 12g in the result is a muddy mess.







Drink was ok though but probably more extremely fine grinds in it that can pass through the basket. Grinders don't produce perfect gains of coffee all the same size. There are bound to be some that are broken up more. I suspect Sage's larger basket capacities are related to milk based drinks







Seems if a BE owner wants stronger they need to buy a dual boiler.

I've no idea how well a Super Jolly grinds but clumping is pretty obvious. You'll get clumps that hold together well rather than a nice heap of grinds that may have some sort of lumps usually at the top that disintegrate with the slightest provocation. Grinding too fine can have a similar effect but for me that has needed levels well below the usual espresso range and they may well choke up the grinder. The Super Jolly is reckoned to be a good grinder which I suspect rules this area out other than maybe extremely oily beans causing problems. I don't know but it might be a good idea to clean it, set the grind where you think is needed and grind some beans before using it for shots. Some people weigh beans into the grinder and then run it empty. If you did that you would carry on doing this until what went in was very close to what comes out indicating that what's going to get trapped in the machine has been. Not sure how well your grinder would work like that and you weigh the output anyway.

Sage do offer another way of setting the fill in the baskets. The razor tool. It will set the level close to where it needs to be leaving room for the grinds to expand as the shot is pulled. Personally I think it's not a bad idea for people who are new to the machines to use it for a while. One way is to visually grind a nice heap into the portafilter, smooth out with fingers etc, tamp and razor it off. I then tamp again when I use it. I might do this while setting the grind and worry about weight when that is sorted out but usually weigh beans in as well. I still do use it like that at times even though I know that my single will need close to 9.3g. The finer the grind the bigger the visual heap will be.

You seem to be using a mechanical tamper that gets the tamp level and gives a set pressure. So that can be ruled out.

The only other aspect is machine heat up times. Boilers heat up pretty quickly on many machines, some count of minutes. My Piccino for instance takes about 3min to do that. Getting the group head up to temperature adds another circa 15mins. Sage have a heater in that as well so no idea how long it takes but for consistency it will need to get up to where ever it gets too - usually far too hot to touch. Then comes the portafilter itself. That takes even longer. Also probably some parts in the machine that wont get hot until water flows through them. That and the portafilter can be speeded up by flushing. Run a double through it with a empty basket in it. Ideally the one you intend to use. I use a pressurised basket on the BE as there is very little heat transfer to the portafilter on them. It gets it as hot as a boiler machine would. You might like to do that and watch the behaviour the pressure gauge - it should show close to the ideal when a machine has been set up for a particular bean. All it would need is the shot time setting to give the correct volume.

So say all this has produced a perfect shot that's the same all of the time once the machine is heated up. If the drink is too strong there are 2 alternatives Grind coarser which will mess up the so called perfect extraction or change filter basket size. The "perfect" extraction might be a ratio - 15g of coffee in and 30g of fluid out, 1 to 2, mixed with water or milk. No comment about how much of either - another variable. If a drink is too weak and the extraction "perfect" finer grinding can't be used to strengthen it so the only option is a larger basket. It may be possible to grind finer but other factors such as the over pressure valve in the machine may crop up. Pucks may start getting wet too.

Some one might see comments like use 16.788969g of coffee, grind to achieve 30.000000ml of fluid in 23.2680487 secs even on a retailer's site. What to do if someone doesn't like the taste. Throw the beans away and buy another type? No nothing is cast in stone. The aim is to generate a drink that the user likes and that may involve over or under extraction or even not capturing some portion of the shot. Grinding can only be used to change things so much. The only other things that can be changed are, basket size, type of bean, brew water temperature on some machines and in the DB's case the infusion parameters. Just those alone show how crap xg, x ml and x secs are. For example my Piccino can't produce exactly the same taste as my BE because the methods the machines use to extract are entirely different. The Piccino even needs more coffee to produce the same level of taste.







I'm not sure which one a prefer but the BE heats up a lot more quickly. The Piccino is a dual boiler machine. If I tried an HX machine taste would probably change again.

What I'm saying is that the rules are one aspect - a starting point but you can do what ever you like to get a taste that you like not some fictitious numbers that may suite who ever set them.

There is a problem though - one way or another it takes a bit of dedication to get the same thing every time.







More of a calling than a truly sensible thing to do in some way. Maybe it should be regarded as a hobby really.

I think what beans to use are also a problem. I bought 200 odd g packs initially and based my selection on reviews and what levels of roast I tend to like brewed using other methods. That ruled out things like Fudge for me, not enough information. I spent a little time on the web finding out what terms like acidity and body etc mean in practice and selected on that basis along with reading user reviews. Acidity for instance is an after taste factor that might even be masked by the other flavours a bean has. In fact most aspects like that are after taste orientated. Jamacan Blue Mountain is an expensive example of that - weak to drink but a very noticeable after taste when sipped. So far I haven't found an aribica bean that I would call bitter. Some are though a lot stronger than others.








There may be some of my really weird typo's in that lot as I should be doing something else.

John

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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> How did it taste , adjust on the taste not the time ....


 its a little sour, i am thinking to tighten the grind a tad, let it run longer.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

craigsalisbury said:


> its a little sour, i am thinking to tighten the grind a tad, let it run longer.


Just try running it longer to start with , try 50 g , same grind , come back .

Will be weaker , may be sweeter ...it's all personal preference


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

ajohn said:


> Snap but I drink them with a touch of milk, semi skimmed too otherwise they taste like lard is mixed in with them. Running on from the filter basket thread I use a Sage Barista Express. Sage have done much the same thing there. A single is 8 to 10g and a double 16 to 18g, both larger than "commercial standards". What I have found is that some beans are too weak in the single and too strong in the double where that's filled to a level that will leave a dry puck, for instance if I stick 12g in the result is a muddy mess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


blimey John!

I think im getting there, the clumping is not really bad, its all falls apart with a fluffing, i think there will be a lot of trial and error and even finding the perfect bean for me. the rules seem to be more like guidelines as taste is a bit subjective, and my god what a mess we would be in if it wasnt. so an afternoon in front of the grinder I reckon and see if i can get rid of this sour taste. there are certainly a lot of variables but im trying to limit them

Craig


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Some one might see comments like use 16.788969g of coffee, grind to achieve 30.000000ml of fluid in 23.2680487 secs even on a retailer's site. What to do if someone doesn't like the taste. Throw the beans away and buy another type? No nothing is cast in stone. The aim is to generate a drink that the user likes and that may involve over or under extraction or even not capturing some portion of the shot.
> 
> John
> 
> -


No, nobody ever said that, well...not until you did. Whatever ratio you want, people normally have adjustable grinders to normalise their preference (balance) at that ratio (strength).


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

well i pulled a longer shot and some of the sourness is leaving, but right now i have given myself a caffeine headache lol so im going to have to switch to grape-water for a bit









definitely need to dial it in a bit more but things are slowly looking up.........of course there could be an element of not liking this bean much hahahahaha


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Cool, it is easier to get past sourness by pushing moe water through the puck (at same grind).

Yeah, take your time between attempts...don't get into a frenzy, bashing out shot after shot. Take time to finish each drink, think about what you don't like, how you might improve it. So what if it takes a couple of days to achieve a good result, you might get there & waste less beans with a more laid back approach.

You might well not like these specific beans (I'd have to ask why you bought them if you didn't think you'd like them), but the odds are much more in favour of you not liking something in your prep/recipe...we just have to pin down what that is. Once we have, things should get better quicker with new bags of beans.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

i have zero bean experience, i bought a kilo of fudge and a kilo of the italian job from rave to start....i probably should have just bought 500g to start with, but at least practising with decent beans should help me get to grips with it all. of course, i could just be destined to like crap


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> No, nobody ever said that, well...not until you did. Whatever ratio you want, people normally have adjustable grinders to normalise their preference (balance) at that ratio (strength).










I know I was exaggerating an aspect that sometimes crops up and I suspect sometimes causes beginners some confusion / problems. I for instance was told that my usual 9.3g of coffee in a single basket was no good, some even said they had never ever used the single and I should try 17g in the double because my ratio was messed up as well. The ratio comment cropped up a lot. I'm not being critical. Elsewhere there are plenty of comments about what a shot "should be" and in my view that neglects the important aspect - the person that will be drinking it. Some would regard what I do with my 9.3g of beans as disgusting however it was derived by trying all sorts of things including what might be called hard line theory. I found what I do suites me and yes I do over extract. Some would say that destroys the beans taste. I've found it doesn't on this particular bean. It might on others.

The numbers I quoted were very tongue in cheek. I came across a bean supplier some where that states less exact ones. That probably prompted me. Another that crops up elsewhere a lot is that a single is 30ml and a double 60. That's a better more flexible one. What goes in to produce that can be far more flexible but then comes the problem of maintaining the taste that some one likes. It can be done but is likely to take some effort especially in respect to variations from the grinder.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You cannot taste the dose weight in coffee.

If you can only brew to individual preference, that is unknown, then there is no useful information anyone can convey to anyone else.

Why do you say you over-extract? What are your extractions? Most people pulling shots at 1:2 are only tickling the lower end of normal. The other day I got distracted and overshot by half as much beverage again, my extraction only went up from 18% to 19%.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

I have come to the conclusion i need to get some training







there is a very real possibility that I have no idea if what im tasting is utterly terrible or amazingly good. that being said im tasting neat espresso where I would normally drink a milk drink or a black coffee with cream and sugar. i figured i would be able to tell the differences more if it was as "insert coffee gods name here<insert coffee="" gods="" name="" here="">" <insert coffee="" god="" name="" here=""> intended.</insert></insert>


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

craigsalisbury said:


> I have come to the conclusion i need to get some training
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you normally drink long black coffee with cream & sugar, why have you stopped? Ultimately, you have to drink the coffee...it's not supposed to be torture.

It would help to know how you might normally make this coffee. For instance, you are brewing with an 18g dose. If you were making filter coffee with 18g of dose your drink might be 250g, before you add cream & sugar. When you pull a shot, put the kettle on, pull the shot to your target ratio, then add hot water to bring it down to filter strength...maybe taste it now. Or, add your cream & sugar then taste.

You can add/drizzle/sprinkle whatever you like to your shot, whatever makes you happy...but, coffee has a natural sweetness (maybe more like ripe fruit, not usually as sweet as products made with refined sugar, but occasionally can be), so unless you have a very sweet tooth, you might find you can reduce added sugar in time. E.g. one coffee may have a toffee sweetness, refined sugar will mask that, then again another might have a white sugar sweetness and adding brown sugar will mask that. If you are adding sugar to all coffee to make it drinkable, then maybe you just like coffee as vehicle for sugar/milk/cream...which, again, is fine (dietary requirements relating to refined sugar & saturated fat, apart) as you have to drink it.

But, whatever you end up with in terms of style of drink, pulling the shot is where you make the flavour of the coffee, so there's no shortcut to nailing this down.


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## mcorrea (Dec 27, 2017)

That's a great suggestion about the whisk.

Thanks


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

MWJB said:


> If you normally drink long black coffee with cream & sugar, why have you stopped? Ultimately, you have to drink the coffee...it's not supposed to be torture.
> 
> It would help to know how you might normally make this coffee. For instance, you are brewing with an 18g dose. If you were making filter coffee with 18g of dose your drink might be 250g, before you add cream & sugar. When you pull a shot, put the kettle on, pull the shot to your target ratio, then add hot water to bring it down to filter strength...maybe taste it now. Or, add your cream & sugar then taste.
> 
> ...


I completely agree, i come from the land of nespresso, specifically the ristretto capsule at a lungo size. right now i'm using an 18g dose which is pulling 38g in around 35 seconds with 10 second pre-infusion. im getting a nice dark shot with a good crema and slow pour. Then I add steamed milk. to be honest I have probably made a decent drink, but having a touch of OCD and lack of knowledge bugs the crap outta me. I cant pin down these taste points, although I have given myself a few decent caffeine headaches trying


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

craigsalisbury said:


> I completely agree, i come from the land of nespresso, specifically the ristretto capsule at a lungo size. right now i'm using an 18g dose which is pulling 38g in around 35 seconds with 10 second pre-infusion. im getting a nice dark shot with a good crema and slow pour. Then I add steamed milk. to be honest I have probably made a decent drink, but having a touch of OCD and lack of knowledge bugs the crap outta me. I cant pin down these taste points, although I have given myself a few decent caffeine headaches trying


Your parameters for a tasty shot don't seem to relate to taste. Crema, colour & slow pour are not direct/individual indicators of a good shot. 18:38g is unnecessarily short if you like a longer drink. I thought you were pulling longer shots to lose the sourness?

Remember, each shot you pull is the equivalent of 3 Nespresso shots in terms of caffeine. Your lungo is brewed coffee strength, similar to if you made 210g of black coffee from an 18g espresso dose. So, you see how you have leeway to pull your shots somewhat longer?

Leave plenty of time between shots, make 2 or 3 per day, or buy some decaff to practice with.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

i have been playing with 2 variables at once which seems to be leading to frustration. i'll start by purely leaving the grind where it is and running the machine longer. I completely agree that what it looks like makes no difference if it tastes like arse. I also ordered a 7g basket to lower the dose but ill play with that later lol.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It's the crema that tends to have a strong maybe bitter taste. Something I like so I make long blacks rather than americano - shot run into water which retains the crema. Americano style tends to loose a lot of it when the water is run into the shot.

Something I noticed when using up some Lavazza preground we had that might work out in your 10g plus basket. Run 2 double shots through it when it's correctly filled. I did t on the basis that any drink that is made using a large proportion of water needs to get it from some where so tried it out. It tended to sweeten and smooth out the drink. It can do the same thing with some beans.

That was done from a grind and fill that gave a sub 30ml single shot from around 9.5g of coffee. Probably circa 20ml. Many will say *what* run circa 80ml through. Well I did try all of the options.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> It's the crema that tends to have a strong maybe bitter taste. Something I like so I make long blacks rather than americano - shot run into water which retains the crema. Americano style tends to loose a lot of it when the water is run into the shot.
> 
> Something I noticed when using up some Lavazza preground we had that might work out in your 10g plus basket. Run 2 double shots through it when it's correctly filled. I did t on the basis that any drink that is made using a large proportion of water needs to get it from some where so tried it out. It tended to sweeten and smooth out the drink. It can do the same thing with some beans.
> 
> ...


Im not sure your experience with a pre grind supermarket coffee is particularly pertinent to using fresh roasted coffee for the OP.

Your talking in a language of double shots and ml that the OP isnt using in making is espresso .

This is one of the reasons why weight is important , its a more accurate measure and makes for a common language in helping trouble shoot.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Im not sure your experience with a pre grind supermarket coffee is particularly pertinent to using fresh roasted coffee for the OP.
> 
> Your talking in a language of double shots and ml that the OP isnt using in making is espresso .
> 
> This is one of the reasons why weight is important , its a more accurate measure and makes for a common language in helping trouble shoot.


The OP knows that 1ml weighs close to 1g and as mentioned the same idea can have a similar effect on fresh roasted beans. Some of them anyway.

John

-


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> The OP knows that 1ml weighs close to 1g and as mentioned the same idea can have a similar effect on fresh roasted beans. Some of them anyway.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Except we don't know if your measuring to crema or not , in an accurate shot glass, or at what point the crema is ( how long after ) .

And that's before we start taking into account that coffee and water dont have the same ratio of 1ml to 1g .

I thought you were an engineer ? Rather cavalier approach to measuring then....


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

As for the caffeine headaches, you might want to try spitting it out while you're learning, dialling in or cupping.

Sounds like a waste of resources? Embrace the headache









You'd still get the taste by 1. literally slurping fast using much air (as the retro-nasal area is where flavour differentiation takes place, search for Coffee Cupping Flavour Wheel on the Interwebs) and 2. jetting through your mouth so it reaches all taste buds (responsible for basic sweet/sour/salty/bitter/umami diagnosis).

To increase one's sensitivity it is very important to actively taste as many things as possible, not only coffee. In a respective course I was once told that the average person can improve their taste responsiveness up to 8000 times (not %)!

One more thought on espresso: crema consists of oils and sugar, freshly roasted beans might carry extra carbon dioxide over to it. All of which contain elements affecting overall taste. No matter the final drinking habits, it might be worth stirring the shot to kinda fold in the crema and its flavours.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Except we don't know if your measuring to crema or not , in an accurate shot glass, or at what point the crema is ( how long after ) .
> 
> And that's before we start taking into account that coffee and water dont have the same ratio of 1ml to 1g .
> 
> I thought you were an engineer ? Rather cavalier approach to measuring then....


ah im measuring grams in and grams out







approach tomorrow is increase the yield without changing the grind. I havent bought supermarket beans, Im using fudge by rave roasted a couple of weeks ago.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Hasi said:


> As for the caffeine headaches, you might want to try spitting it out while you're learning, dialling in or cupping.
> 
> Sounds like a waste of resources? Embrace the headache
> 
> ...


ill give the interwebs a tap to see what they deliver on wheels of flavour.

I have been doing to win'o slurp and spit but thats after i have had far too much







tomorrow is a new day and im going to start it off right, with a couple of ibuprofen


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

oh boy... get well soon









btw: here's an example of how a coffee taster performs in his job:

[video=youtube;Ch7aLqjy2-M]






a bit disgusting, but hey this guy needs to find some sleep each night!


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Well bugger me i think i've cracked it! for repeatability i have got it locked into a button, but which i have put 4 shots through and its pretty consistent so far. my magic number seems to be 18g in > 50g out in 30 secs. works really well with a drop of water to make it a bit longer, a cortado style (without sugar), cappucinoesque. sourness gone, and caught it before it gets very bitter.

the unicorn has landed !!!

...well until i change the bean and then i guess all hell breaks loose again lol









Thank you all soo much for the help and advice, its all very much appreciated

Craig


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Well then I suggest you frequently change beans from now on









Like driving different cars makes you more comfy when getting into yet another one









Most importantly: have fun!


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