# Upgrade from Gaggia Classic to HX/Dual Boiler!



## elkhedewi (Feb 24, 2015)

Dear coffee fiends,

After many years playing with entry level SBDU machines, currently with a Gaggia Classic w/ Silvia wand, I am ready to splurge on an upgrade! I am using an Ascaso i1 grinder which worked well with the Classic which I will upgrade very soon so let us not digress into a grinder discussion!

I tend to have an espresso in the mornings and a few flat whites on the weekends. Because they are few and far between, I look forward to them and take the time to get them right. The Classic has been inconsistent with shots, and the steam is lacking. I've temp surfed, descaled, and squeezed the best of it, but am not satisfied, and don't think its worthwhile to install a PID, hence the upgrade.

I've read the stickies on this forum, and researched elsewhere. Still not sure whether HX or DB is best. One thing I don't get with DBs is, you get the convenience of no waiting time, but doesn't shot quality still ultimately depend on the quality and controls over the boiler on a stand alone basis (likewise with the steam and its boiler)? I see many DBs where the boiler specs do not appear much better than a SBDU like the Silvia, so would that mean that a Silvia would produce a better shot? Why are DBs often presented as "hands-down" better than SBDU if their brew boilers are not always better? Just because of the lack of waiting time or is there something I'm totally missing?

Anyway I've shortlisted a few HX and DB models, in my GBP 600 - 850 budget range, and would appreciate your recommendation for each category (and why):

HX:

- Fracino Cherub (Pros: 2850W boiler, UK-made, E61 "type" group / Cons: ?)

- Expobar Office Leva (Pros: proper E61 group, looks great / Cons: more expensive)

- Nuova Simonelli Oscar (Pros: cheaper / Cons: plastic, regular 58mm group)

DB:

- Fracino Piccino (Pros: least expensive DB option / Cons: no PID, regular 58mm group)

- Lelit Diana PL60PLUST (Pros: PID / Cons: more expensive, standard 58mm group)

- Quick Mill Sivano (Pros: PID, E61 group / Cons: thermoblock for steam)

Thank you your help!


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

HX worth considering is the Ariete - can do you a great price on a Fracino machine as a Forum member

Andy


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## Roland Clarke (Dec 16, 2014)

I did a similar thing, came from a Gaggia Classic and upgraded to Cimbali Junior (although bought second-hand through ebay) HX machine. Couldn't be happier, though it took a while to get it all settled down. Still playing with different coffee beans.







. There are plenty of good secondhand machines on Ebay, though you will pay more for the single group ones. I've seen machines sold in good working order from £300 - 900 that would have cost £1200 - £1800 new.


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## PeterF (Aug 25, 2014)

I went from the classic to the Expobar Dual Boiler PID & I am delighted with it. The seperated boilers offer very stable temp control & you can switch the steam boiler off if making none milk drinks.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I do like the idea of a DB. Not just for temp control compared to a single boiler but also as I tend to drink mainly "non milk based drinks" and the idea of not switching on a steam Boiler appeals to me.


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

Funny that people often want to splash the extra dosh so they can leave the feature turned off.

I do get where you're coming from though. and obviously temp control is a massive plus.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Nuts I know, dual boiler and only use one of them for 80% of the time. 

From what I've read on some of the machines the brew boiler is smaller and can get up to brew temp quicker compared to a HX.


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## elkhedewi (Feb 24, 2015)

Thanks all. The expobar dual boiler would be sweet but over budget for me. I couldn't find used on ebay under completed items.

What would you pick from my two lists (or within that budget)?

Cheers


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

I think there's pluses and minuses to both. I suspect you'd be equally happy with both so IMO you are best off just hunting and searching for the best and least expensive example of any of the machines on either list and snapping it up.

I personally would go for an HX however. You might have to do a little cooling flush first before pulling a shot if the machine has been sat idle for a while but actually that's quite useful for warming your cup.

Also if you can get a machine with a rotary pump,as opposes to a vibratory pump you'll end up with a nicer shot too


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

funinacup said:


> Funny that people often want to splash the extra dosh so they can leave the feature turned off.
> 
> I do get where you're coming from though. and obviously temp control is a massive plus.


Always good to save the electricity though...... I love my Brewtus for what it's worth. It's a really consistent and easy to use machine. Especially with IMS shower screens which are a cheap upgrade. I've us some of the best espresso I've ever tasted from that machine and the E8.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Just stumbled on this. Nice machine. Automatic controls but not plumbed in so good for easy domestic use. You might be able to get it for £600

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fracino-Little-Gem-Coffee-And-Espresso-Maker-Silver/291392821698?_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140221143405%26meid%3D629ea50f7d6a49149b0da0cf74d1eceb%26pid%3D100010%26rk%3D22%26rkt%3D24%26sd%3D201293361694


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## elkhedewi (Feb 24, 2015)

Thanks for that link Cam, it might be a bit too big for my needs

Throttled down the choice to:

- £500 for a Nuova Simonelli Oscar

- £760 for a Lelit PL60PLUST (double boiler w/ PID)

- £740 for an Isomac Tea Cool Touch

Looks like I'll go for the Oscar and put the difference in a grinder upgrade. Any thoughts would be much appreciated!


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

You might want to add the Quick Mill Silvano to your list as an alternative to the Lelit.

Cracking looking machine and Bella Barista are doing them for just shy of £700. There was also a forum member thinking about selling his on a while ago.

Dual boiler - but the steamer is on a Thermoblock and therefore much cheaper to run. By all accounts it will do a fantastic job, just might take a little longer with the milk.


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## elkhedewi (Feb 24, 2015)

Thanks Nick! I did have the Silvano near the top of the list but its precisely the thermoblock that threw me off (I prefer strong steam over PID). Have you tried the steam yourself?


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

I'm afraid not. I'm guessing that it would be approx 60 seconds to do the milk. Bit of extra time gives you plenty of control. I'm not sure I could handle something that emptied the jug over me on full blast!









If steam over PID then the Oscar would be hard to beat by all accounts. Elekros in Italy do a fully upgraded version. Euro exchange rate definitely in our favour at the moment.


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## Lozzer87 (Feb 12, 2015)

Hi there, sorry to just jump in on the conversation but I upgraded from a classic to a simonelli Oscar two weeks ago and think it's a fantastic machine. Although not everyone's taste I have one in black and think it looks great. Took a while to get grind right but now starting to get great results and consistently.


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## Epic_Espresso (Feb 22, 2015)

I'm looking to do exactly the same. From Gaggia Classic, looking at something like a Heavenly. A second hand Mini Vivaldi would be GREAT!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I hadn't seen the Lelit PL60 before, for £760 that seems like a cracking deal. The brew boiler is relatively small at 300ml but PID controlled I doubt it will miss a beat.

Where are you planning on buying from, I can't see a UK stockist?


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## elkhedewi (Feb 24, 2015)

Lozzer, I keep hearing great things about the Oscar. Do you drink mostly milk based drinks or do you also enjoy espressos? I'm concerned about the lack of control on the Oscar (temp, pressure).

Dylan the Lelit is indeed tempting with all those features at that price. The site is Italia Worldwide, its EUR 1,050 but the fx rate works in our favour these days.

Anyone here used both a PID dual boiler and an HX machine? Which did you prefer?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

elkhedewi said:


> Lozzer, I keep hearing great things about the Oscar. Do you drink mostly milk based drinks or do you also enjoy espressos? I'm concerned about the lack of control on the Oscar (temp, pressure).
> 
> Dylan the Lelit is indeed tempting with all those features at that price. The site is Italia Worldwide, its EUR 1,050 but the fx rate works in our favour these days.
> 
> Anyone here used both a PID dual boiler and an HX machine? Which did you prefer?


If you get an Oscar from Elektros they can instal an OPV for you. You can do it yourself too, isn't hard.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

I'd vouch for Elektros, as have recently purchased from them, though can't comment on the machine. Gianni's a fantastic guy to deal with.

Though you will get someone saying "but what about the warranty" in no time - purely because they're based abroad. Personally, if anything did go wrong, you've an excuse to go to Italy! BONUS!


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

If you want full control on pressure/temp then I can recommend the Sage Dual Boiler. Also great for steaming milk.

There are a few popping up on ebay as ex-demo models and seem to go for a decent price. There was also someone on the forum thinking about selling theirs a week ago.

I bought from lakeland and managed to get a good deal on an ex-display model.

It certainly allows you to play with all the parameters.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Best thing about Lakeland is their lifetime (yes really) no quibble guarantee. Think a few people here have taken a Sage for a test run then just returned it, no questions asked.


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## Lozzer87 (Feb 12, 2015)

I mainly have espresso and so far have been having good results and I haven't even put an opv on it yet. Like others have said elektros sell them with it already installed, unfortunately I ordered mine before I found out about them.


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## elkhedewi (Feb 24, 2015)

Thanks Lozzer and everyone. After a long inner debate on the Oscar (which everyone is happy with) vs the Isomac Tea (which has excellent reviews on coffeegeek, and for which I found a great deal at £737 delivered) I opted for the Isomac. Main reasons to shell out the extra cash:

- pressure gauge will help diagnose extraction problems

- E61 group

- hot water dispenser

- ball joint, anti-burn steam wands

- larger water tank

- stainless steel body

Also ordered a Baratza Vario grinder. Let's hope this marriage works


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