# Boiler build up/scale



## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Here we go again...

This machine was supposed to come into the house be plugged in, filled with water and put into use. Advertised as "lightly used"...

Anyway... After stripping it down and the boiler sitting in a citric acid solution it still looks like this inside:



















And so my question is.... Will/should this black buildup go away??

Cheers,

Joel

P.S. The Rancilio rebuild isn't dead and buried, just waiting for a mate to have time to drop in and run some diagnostics with me


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Some other pictures to illustrate just how " lightly used " the machine was.


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

Wow looks like you got a raw deal on that one

it may have been slightly used but then left in improper storage for a long time?? That would be my guess


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Fevmeister said:


> Wow looks like you got a raw deal on that one
> 
> it may have been slightly used but then left in improper storage for a long time?? That would be my guess


At least he has admitted to "not knowing/realising" the state of it and returned some of my money.

It certainly shows signs of being reasonably well used at some point.

Oh well... A good clean and get it back together and then hopefully it works....


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

Fingers crossed you get it up and running

that 't valve' is disgusting!!


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Aren't they always lightly used or barely used on places like ebay?!


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

jonc said:


> Aren't they always lightly used or barely used on places like ebay?!


Haha... True enough.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

TBH, like an old car, a 'lightly used' machine is probably more likely to end up looking like that than a well used one.

Do you know what the build up is? If it's stubborn calcium deposit it may be worth trying a phos solution to see if that shifts it, or otherwise maybe attach some wirewool to a scrubber and get it in there. If its completely caked on to the sides and citric/phos/scrubbing doesnt budge it I would imagine its probably not going to budge with hot water.

I imagine that valve is going to need replacing....


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Dylan said:


> TBH, like an old car, a 'lightly used' machine is probably more likely to end up looking like that than a well used one.
> 
> Do you know what the build up is? If it's stubborn calcium deposit it may be worth trying a phos solution to see if that shifts it, or otherwise maybe attach some wirewool to a scrubber and get it in there. If its completely caked on to the sides and citric/phos/scrubbing doesnt budge it I would imagine its probably not going to budge with hot water.
> 
> I imagine that valve is going to need replacing....


That's a pretty fair point too.

Not sure what the build up was, but I've just hit it with a properly strong citric acid and finally found a good brush that fit inside it.... Now it's coming up good.. Pics to follow soon....

Indeed that valve is a concern. It's cleaning up nicely, but we'll see. When pulling it apart there's two pieces that I can't figure out if it was a deteriorated o-ring between or just a feral build up. Given that it was yellow I'm guessing option B.


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Tadaaaa....


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Moving in the right direction...


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

What machine is that? Good job on the boiler.


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> What machine is that? Good job on the boiler.


Cheers man.

Simonelli Musica.... "Simple" machine to have at home that Kristin (my wife) might be happy using.

All ready for leak testing tomorrow.... Right now I've got a 4 year old to try and get to bed..


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Nice bit of kit - or will be once you're done.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

could be cupper oxides (the black stuff)anyway looking good, nice job


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Bugger... It's got a leak.

Anyone know if these type of pipes come with the collar on them or if the fitting creates the collar when it's tightened down?? Naturally the pipe has a crack right below the fitting....


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Cant hurt to snip the end off and find out.


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Dylan said:


> Cant hurt to snip the end off and find out.


Precisely what I decided too. Seemingly it creates it itself. Well at the very least it sealed. I've not undone the fitting again to look at it.

Now unfortunately I have both of these bottom fittings leaking. The left one was a fun bubbling steaming show when it came up to pressure. On the plus side, clearly the pump and heating element are working


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

There was seemingly no form of o-ring or sealing help on these fittings (unless it was so deteriorated to be unrecognisable)... Is this normal??


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

A bit strange, perhpas they had some kind of other sealant on them.

You dont need to buy o-rings which can be hard to track down, my VBM machine just had layers and layers of compressed PTFE tape.

Basically get some ptfe and wind it around the thread, then go round and round the base of the thread so the ptfe builds right up, then screw it in, as you do the ptfe will compress forming a seal, keep screwing until you get to the correct angle and you dont think it will make it round another full turn.


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

I thought it was weird. But thought I'd give it a shot without.

It may very well have had something previously, but nothing recognisable.

I guess I'll let it cool and then break it down again.

Cheers for the info.


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Well certainly no o-rings listed... But I'll be giving the tape a go either way.


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

Wish I was mechanically minded

unfortunately I could never do any of this


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Fevmeister said:


> Wish I was mechanically minded
> 
> unfortunately I could never do any of this


I wish the machine was as advertised and I didn't have to do any of this, Hahahaha...

Then I could be sitting enjoying a good coffee from some beans I specifically roasted for it's arrival


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

Joel.Sim said:


> I wish the machine was as advertised and I didn't have to do any of this, Hahahaha...
> 
> Then I could be sitting enjoying a good coffee from some beans I specifically roasted for it's arrival


Yeah but good job you know what you're doing and you got some cash back

i hope you got it for a good price!


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Hmmmm... Since it's starting to look like I'm pulling the boiler out of the machine again.

Would it be recommended to use tape on the fittings on top of the boiler also??

From memory there was nothing on those on my Rancilio and these ones looked like this when the came out.


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

Cant help you with this one, can anyone else offer a suggestion at to how a relatively new machine (musica, only out for 5 years) can look this bad on the inside, whether or not the 'light' usage statement is true!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Hard water and being left idle.

And yup, wrap everything in ptfe, won't hurt and will create a better seal.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Hi Joe, I cannot see clearly on the photo's but it looks as if there is a shallow groove in the flange of the nut, looks like the seat for an "O" ring. Another suggestive point is the clear / bright ring on the flange / shoulder and the corrosion on the thread indicating it has not had sealant / PTFE on the thread. I think the ptfe would complete the seal.

A non hardening ,paste type sealer suitable for "potable" drinking water is "jet blue" can be used for many other liquids as well


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

It's alive and leak free (for now).

Sadly now I have to wait until I can get my hands on a new portafilter gasket before it can be tested properly. Tried a Rancilio one I had spare and it's a touch too thick


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Anyone got any experience with magnetic water level sensors and them not working??


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

The exploded parts diagram has a regular ground loop water level sensor, if that what you mean then it works by being suspended above the water, when the water hits it it connects to the boiler wall and then to ground via the metal of the machine or a ground wire. Ensure you haven't disconnected this during your work on it.

You can test the water level probe by connecting the part that sticks out of the boiler that the metal spade connector connects to to ground, this should stop the pump. If the pump isn't running in the first place then remove the water level probe and completely dry it (oven on very low with door open or hairdryer) then replace.

If the probe is very badly scaled it can interfere with the ground loop, but I'm guessing you would have addressed this during the descale if so.


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Now I feel bad, as that was a very good description that you took the time to type out and I do appreciate that....

But I was referring to the water reservoir tank, not the boiler....I should've made that clear. Sorry about that.

The part with the highlighted part number in the picture below:










From that bolt/sensor there are two cables that connect directly to the main circuit board. And in the reservoir there is a float.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Lol, no need to feel bad, was my assumption that you were on about the sensor when you were on about exactly what you said you were.

I haven't seen such a magnetic sensor before. You can go along according to the principle that it is essentially a switch which will be activated, so you can experiment by shorting the switch and narrowing down where the fault lies.

Or you can just buy a new one, send an email to espressounderground (website not member) , he has given me excellent advice many times and may be able to order you the part.


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Still waiting on parts 

Sounds like they'll finally come this coming week and then hopefully we can get a coffee out of this.


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

After weeks of waiting I've just had the sudden thought that perhaps since I've got a Rancilio group seal in the machine, which is too thick to allow the group handle to lock in, perhaps I should try one of my Rancilio ones as it may have a slightly different profile...

Looks like it fits 

Time to cross some fingers and see what happens.


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Well... It was a good theory (or maybe it wasn't!?) But it leaks between portafilter and gasket a little.

Suppose I should go back to trying to be patient.


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Yay the bits and pieces finally arrived today.

(Much to the delivery driver's confusion of the ventilation pipe sticking out the kitchen window with smoke billowing out of it towards the end of a roast. She was kind enough just to pass the package through the window and carry on, so I didn't have to leave my roasting though )

The good news is it now pulls shots without leaking everywhere.

The bad news is that the new water reservoir empty sensor that I just installed did not fix the problem. It still doesn't register that the reservoir is empty 










I had to take this one I guess...










Sadly I misunderstood about which lights could be adjusted for brightness. I thought the side panel led's could be adjusted, but it appears that only the backlighting of the buttons is adjustable. Oh well at least they have a separate on/off switch...


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

That last pic looks like it's advertising a slasher coffee machine movie!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Have you tried shorting the switch across manually to see if this does anything?


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Dylan said:


> Have you tried shorting the switch across manually to see if this does anything?


No, I haven't.

I may pull the panels of again tomorrow and try.

Unplug the sensor from the board and essentially jump the pins on the board??


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Essentially yes, but be careful near the board to only jump the pins of the sensor, if it can be done at the base of the sensor away from the board that would be safer i think.


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

The sensor is a pretty well sealed unit, so on the board it is. Careful I shall be...


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Scrap that... Was having a brain fart moment.

I can short it at the connectors where the sensor plugs into....


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Hmmmmm.... So when disconnecting the sensor the warning light comes on.

When shorting the two together the light goes off...

I don't know if there is any logic in the colour of the wires but this is how it was connected










Now if it was me I would've joined the brown to brown??? Naturally that could be completely wrong.

At a loss still....


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

So if the tank is empty but the sensor connected does the warning light come on?

As it is just a switch it should't matter which way around the sires are, as it will just break or connect the circuit.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

So if the warning light is not coming on in normal operation but it does when you disconnect the sensor then this means the problem lies in the operation of the sensor when its connected.

You have a NC (normally closed) switch, when disconnected this opens the circuit and activates the low water level light.

If the sensor is magnetic then try getting the warning light to come on with either some metal that is magnetic (if the magnet is in the sensor) or an actual magnet (if the magnet is in the reservoir float) and see if you can get the sensor activate the light.

If you can then perhaps the problem is in the float that operates the sensor, have a look at this too.


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

I think you're onto something with the float.

It's been one of my suspects all along.

The sensor to me appears to be not much more than a bolt with some wires attached. So magnet in the float makes sense.

I'll attack it again in the morning and see what happens.

Thanks for the advice.

Cheers,

Joel.


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Bingo... With magnet in the float and it not making good enough contact I guess.

Time to explore that...

Shame about wasted money on the sensor, but I guess I have a spare now (that will likely always remain a spare).


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

And more interestingly...

When taking the float out of the reservoir and touching it directly on the sensor there's still no reaction, yet there is with another magnet.

So... Either there was a magnet attached to the bottom of the float which has gone missing or there is a magnet inside the float that's lost its umph...


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Is the float sealed? Can you not see where the magnet might have been or is it within the float itself?

Either way, get on ebay and buy a small magnet that you think will work and epoxy it onto the bottom of the float.

I would just count the money on the sensor as costs to get the machine working, at least it lead you to the answer!


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

First response was going to be yes it's sealed, but it does appear I may be able to open it.

I'm considering attaching a magnet, but then off course I need a food safe epoxy.

I'll open it up and have a look.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Search ebay for 'food safe sealant' I imagine that would work pretty well for gluing a magnet to the bottom.

But if its easy enough to open up then it may not be needed, obviously dont break the seal on a part that needs to be waterproof.


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

Funnily enough a new water tank with float is cheaper than the sensor was.

But I've shot off an e-mail to see if I can get just the float too.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

A quick google suggests rust and corrosion will quickly destroy a magnets magnetism, so thats my guess at what happened.


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## Joel.Sim (Apr 15, 2015)

More or less the same response I just got to my e-mail too.

Can't get the float separately from Simonelli...

I saw something earlier about someone getting a different brand float though. So I'll research that.

Turns out opening the float isn't exactly easy either...


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