# Pucks sticking to the shower screen on a DB



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

From time time I get rashes of this on the DB. Anyone any idea why?

I've found this area rather different to my BE. That was simple. No sticking unless I allowed the ground to expand up to the point where they touch the shower screen, If for some reason I needed to run like that the fix was pretty simple - add a tiny touch more coffee.

The DB shows the same sort of effect but it also seems to be able to do it when I use low fills. In other words the grinds always expand to fill the space and can stick. This can also just start happening - dose, grind and shot out etc still the same.

John

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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

I've found similar to be honest. I haven't ever identified a guaranteed way to stop it happening. I remember reading on a blog somebody using 18g VST (which I also use) said filling to 19g solved it for them, but that wasn't my experience...


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## Bolta (May 11, 2014)

To release the stuck puck just press and hold the 1 cup button for a second.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I never thought of doing a web search but tried one and it has a response from Breville -







Not that I would take much notice of it

https://www.espressoschool.com.au/blog/breville-dual-boiler-sucks-literally/

The other comment that's about is not tamping correctly - say onto a shoulder in the basket, very very easy to do on the Sage single. Other makes of basket are often designed to be tamped lower than Sage's so that is less likely to happen. Some in fact seem to tamp as low as the typical thickness of a tamper - I've seen even lower used on none Sage makes.

It's a feature that drove me nuts for a while when I first started using it. I mentioned varying fill level over and over again to get it correct. As usual this caused some "comments". If anyone read that they now know why I kept changing it. Low fills doing it really threw me. The pucks looked ok too.

Adding more coffee makes sense. I don't seem to get it if I leave a near impression of the shower screen on the puck with a bit of a pip in the middle from the socket in the retaining screw. That will mean varying the weight to suite the bean. Going on the BE that gives maximum extraction as well but will change the grind a touch. Too big a pip usually means reduced extraction.

Lots of DB users about so thought there might be more comments.

It gets stranger and stranger. I've fitted an IMS woven Gaggia shower screen. That seems to result in pucks that always extract pretty easily but I'm inclined to say it doesn't make the sticking problem worse or better. There are always some grounds left on it though.

John

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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Why does it matter?

As has been said, they can be released with ease by starting the pump for a second and don't indicate any fault in prep, technique or result.


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## nufc1 (May 11, 2015)

I see the same with the DB. The only way I've found of stopping it is leaving the puck in the machine for 5 mins before cleanup. Obviously not possible if you want to make back to back shots.

Dylan, as you said, it doesn't really matter but makes cleaning up a tad more of a hassle than it should be. It just feels like it shouldn't happen and there's no obvious reason for it (that I've found)


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Bolta said:


> To release the stuck puck just press and hold the 1 cup button for a second.


That's what I do.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

nufc1 said:


> I see the same with the DB. The only way I've found of stopping it is leaving the puck in the machine for 5 mins before cleanup. Obviously not possible if you want to make back to back shots.
> 
> Dylan, as you said, it doesn't really matter but makes cleaning up a tad more of a hassle than it should be. It just feels like it shouldn't happen and there's no obvious reason for it (that I've found)


This happened to me a long time ago, I think on a Classic, and I remember my impression being that it was actually less hassle than knocking out the puck in a knock box...


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Happens to me as well from time to time. Don't worry about it.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Happens more when slightly under-filling the basket for me. Increasing the dose means it happens less, but still happens sometimes. Don't really see it as a problem, I suspect it's just a symptom of vacuum/pressure within the system


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I suspect the problem is down to an over exuberant 3 way action. I can only compare with the BE and a Piccino. I was curious about how much water went into the drip tray on the BE as the OPV dumps into it. From memory the 3 way always dumped 60ml - long length of pipe, slows things down and from 15 bar on that machine as I was mostly using it. The Piccino uses a similar shower screen to the one I am using and it doesn't collect so many grinds. More grinds seem to get into the drip tray on the DB as well compared with the BE.

Adding more grounds seems to work for me. It will get very hard to get the puck out when that's taken too far. 2 very hefty knocks etc.







Once it sticks reliably with a high filling it doesn't take much extra at all to stop it happening.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dylan said:


> Why does it matter?
> 
> As has been said, they can be released with ease by starting the pump for a second and don't indicate any fault in prep, technique or result.


We are making pucks not coffee Dylan.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> We are making pucks not coffee Dylan.


Should have paid more attention to who made the thread


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Why does it matter?

Because it sucks! (







)

With my Quickmill 0835, the basket then also stays in place. Happens about every other shot, nothing wrong with the machine.

I do overfill, though. But lacking a bigger basket that's what it takes to produce good spro on my 0835. Underfilling, in return, results in a soggy puck. Both variations are kind of a mess... but what the heck... as long as I don't run a coffee shop where it's all about seamless back to back production I can accept that.

On my Rocket, it's happened only a few times. I was overfilling there as well...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

In my view people are in need of treatment if they don't know that coffee means pucks on espresso machines and put up with stupid problems when they needn't.

But on the other hand it takes all sorts and what they choose to do and put up with is fine by me.

John

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## Deejaysuave (Jan 26, 2015)

So for the guys that have changed to an IMS basket and/or shower screen, do you recommended them?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> In my view people are in need of treatment if they don't know that coffee means pucks on espresso machines and put up with stupid problems when they needn't.
> 
> But on the other hand it takes all sorts and what they choose to do and put up with is fine by me.
> 
> ...


Treatment moi ? .... pot, kettle, puck...

The impression you give is that you adjust the coffee, dose et all, at the expense of taste with the main objective of getting a dry puck that doesnt stick to the shower screen.

But on the other hand it takes all sorts what they choose to do is fine by me....


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I wouldn't take much notice of the comments about baskets in the link I posted. Are IMS competition baskets worth buying? Pass. I do have a few versions of The Single. My general feeling is that extra polish on a basket wont make any difference to a drink.

I've fitted an IMS Gaggia woven shower screen. Good / bad idea.







Still making my mind up about that. Maybe a post later and a photo of what it does to the puck is the best way to answer that. So will do shortly / when I can.








MrBoots - I also vary taste via basket size so effectively get the puck I want along with the taste which may even be the correct taste. Currently taking MM weight for instance I can do circa 10, 12, 14, 16g and then the sage double followed by a commercial triple. I might be lying about the 12 as I might find it holds some other number in practice. More than 10 less than 14 in other words. On other beans 14 usually goes up to 15.

John

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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

ajohn said:


> I wouldn't take much notice of the comments about baskets in the link I posted. Are IMS competition baskets worth buying? Pass. I do have a few versions of The Single. My general feeling is that extra polish on a basket wont make any difference to a drink.


What is this extra polish on a basket of which you speak?



> I've fitted an IMS Gaggia woven shower screen. Good / bad idea.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


People have been known to say 'too many notes, too many notes', of Mozart's music. I am sorely tempted to say 'too many numbers'.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

All I can think about is the over exuberant three way action and excessive sucking. That's going to end up painful.

This happens to me regularly, I just nudge the puck with the portafilter and it drops back into the basket then very easily into the knockbox.

If you need to take a chisel to it to loosen it, then you might have a problem.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MildredM said:


> People have been known to say 'too many notes, too many notes', of Mozart's music. I am sorely tempted to say 'too many numbers'.


LOL If the DB didn't suck I wouldn't need them.

Too late for anything on the shower screen







In some ways it sucks too.

John

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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Missy said:


> All I can think about is the over exuberant three way action and excessive sucking. That's going to end up painful.
> 
> This happens to me regularly


Erm... put it in the books!!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Well this is what the shower screen does to the puck









I've cleaned out the grinder so that's a bit too much. The grinder is still tucking a bit away each time but the output will match what goes in fairly well shortly. The rim of the screen is thicker than the rest so the depressed area around the rim tends to happen how ever much coffee is put in. For a puck that doesn't stick there are generally signs of the fixing screw but no where near as clear as that.

That puck more or less fell into the knock box leaving very little behind. That seems to be an improvement over the Sage screen. Same effect however much coffee is used. Flow seen via a bottomless settles down pretty quickly even during infusion. Haven't tried that on the Sage screen. I am getting the impression that things tend to remain cleaner behind the screen for longer leaving just fines much like the BE.

Where it sucks. Tends to pick up grinds and from time to time a pretty small bit of the puck may stick to it, usually around the edge. I brush it before use and use a 1 sec 9bar purge. Doesn't get rid of them all but if left to build up the purge can show colour. It can also be wiped over with a tissue - that remove some and doesn't make things any worse even though grounds are being pushed into it.

Where the DB sucks. Low fills can give what appear to be decent pucks but have utterly amazing effects on the taste of what comes out. These do often stick but they didn't on one basket I used early on. That was a version of the IMS "The Single". Taste wasn't stable though. This was with the Sage screen on.

What I haven't done is become 100% sure that sticking is worse or better on this one than the Sage part. When I fitted it I did find that there was a bit less room for grinds. Why - not sure. It could be more even expansion. Sticking could be worse so guess the next new bean will have to be with the Sage one on.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I fitted the Sage screen again and pulled a shot using 15.2g. Result weight out went up to 48g and very messy puck. Same dose with the IMS screen gives about 34g and a tidy puck. The extraction looks better too - more brown stuff floating on top.

I hadn't measured the thickness of the parts so did. Sage 0.56mm, IMS 0.635mm so 0.075mm difference or 3 thou" in old money. The rim of the IMS screen is thicker still but if spread all over the area of the filter wouldn't amount to much.

When I started using the IMS screen my impression was that it was better. I had to reduce the dose a bit but can't recollect any change in strength. Better - pucks more or less fall out even if overfilled and less sticking but they still will at some point as the dose is reduced. I thought this was probably down to throttling the 3 way action a bit. It might be. In some ways there are less holes in the screen and in others ways a lot more. Hole sizes are probably similar. The back looks like this making it a bit difficult to compare.









Front
















Anyway I've decided to stick with it. If some one wants to find out if they are "better" they'll have to buy one and find out. I *suspect* that all round it is an improvement.

Machine usage isn't much difference other than I now use a grouphead brush each time the machine is used and give it a 1 sec purge but only on the first shot that is pulled.

As mentioned a 1sec blast after a shot has been pulled does free a stuck puck however getting the portafilter back on is likely to mess things up. The fact that this works really does point at the problem - 3 way too fierce.







Well I suspect it does as I have done it a couple of times having refitted the portafilter without twisting it way past it's normal position - 2 or 3 twists like that usually get it off as well. If not they need knocking off - no fun they are hot.

John

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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

ajohn said:


> I fitted the Sage screen again and pulled a shot using 15.2g. Result weight out went up to 48g and very messy puck. Same dose with the IMS screen gives about 34g and a tidy puck. The extraction looks better too - more brown stuff floating on top.


 I've got as far as here . . . What IS this 'more brown stuff that's floating on top'?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I'm lost, how does changing a screen, change the brew ratio.

Unless your stopping the shot by time, then your not working to a brew ratio.

These posts get more and more confusing, or I am getting more and more senile.

I think the answer is somewhere in the middle.


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

MildredM said:


> I've got as far as here . . . What IS this 'more brown stuff that's floating on top'?


You're braver than I MM I no longer read/reply to these posts as it causes way too much fragmentation in the old hard drive and I feel best to leave alone then maybe just maybe one day a load of old waffle may disappear from this forum. Can always live in hope .....


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MildredM said:


> I've got as far as here . . . What IS this 'more brown stuff that's floating on top'?


Just what I call it. As to what it is I am not at all sure. On stirring it goes and just light coloured crema is left. I find this 'ere brown stuff a good idea taste wise and associated more with some dark roasts.

I decided to just not respond to some types of post some time ago. In some cases I don't even understand why they bother to make them. As some one mentioned, simples, don't read them.

Why did I add more - some one asked. "People" chucking junk posts in doesn't help.

Mr Boots - I was using the same shot time. Why on earth would I change it and then mention output was different. Grind and quantity same - how and why it changes pass. I can't see it being down to a very small change in fill height to the screen.







I've just decided to carry on using it and not worry about it. I've probably used over 1kg of coffee since I fitted it. Some future kg might brings something up. If so I might find myself going back to the Sage one. I suspect not. Gains may be small but on the whole to me so far are beneficial but more use of the grouphead brush.








My next question is what to do about the apparent fact that the DB *sucks. *I do have a couple of idea on that.

John

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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

ajohn said:


> In some cases I don't even understand why they bother to make them.
> 
> -


You and me both


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

So you changed the output then by killing the shot by time?

It would have been perhaps a better way to judge the changes by killing the shot by weight and noting the additional time it took to extract. Tasting it and then seeing what the difference was.

People ask questions and reply to your posts ( and more than one person I might add ) as it isn't always terribly clear what is it you are saying, trying to describe or the process you are using. To you it's may make sense, to some it's like you are being deliberately obtuse or using a language that we do not understand.

You make long posts and take time to investigate stuff, it's a shame that there are a portion of people that can't make head nor tail of what you are doing.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> So you changed the output then by killing the shot by time?
> 
> It would have been perhaps a better way to judge the changes by killing the shot by weight and noting the additional time it took to extract. Tasting it and then seeing what the difference was.
> 
> ...


I would have thought that people would realise that a 30 sec shot time giving 34g with one screen and 48 with the other is very clearly different. Taste at 48 wasn't good. I've only gone up to 40g out with the IMS screen. In that case more distinct chocolate but generally weakish all round and no sign of the odd taste with the other screen at 48 out for the same dose etc.

This touches on why I wont be doing what I suggested I might do next time I use a new bean. The only way I could do anything about the messy puck I had from 48 out is to add more coffee. I have already bean there and done that. As I mentioned I reduced the dose when I fitted the IMS screen. I've reduced it again now and will again after the next shot. The current reduction has improved strength and taste -







I'll do it again at the same weight just to see it gives the same result. At some point the reduction will cause problems. No way of knowing what until I get there.

I don't mind questions at all - not many are asked actually. If they are and they look like possible trolling it's pretty easy to guess what I would do. Posting - I don't spend all that much time on these pages just visit a few times a day. Only so much time is available.

John

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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Ok I think I know what you're saying

You dosed 15.2 with one screen 48g out.

Changed screen 15.2g dose 34g out.

Am I right in this assumption?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

ajohn said:


> I don't mind questions at all - not many are asked actually. If they are and they look like possible trolling it's pretty easy to guess what I would do. Posting - I don't spend all that much time on these pages just visit a few times a day. Only so much time is available.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Do you ever wonder if your own posts are so difficult to understand that people are constantly misinterpreting what you are trying to say?


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## Kyle T (Jan 6, 2016)

Just out of curiosity have you removed the shower screen and seal recently to clean? It's possible to put the parts back the wrong way and that can cause issues like wet pucks and pucks sticking to the screen.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Kyle T said:


> Just out of curiosity have you removed the shower screen and seal recently to clean? It's possible to put the parts back the wrong way and that can cause issues like wet pucks and pucks sticking to the screen.


It's always been put back together as it should be. Flat side of the seal "most inward". The rear shower screen as Sage call it can only go in one way due to the countersink for the fixing screw, same with the actual shower screen.I shudder to think what would happen if the seal was put in the wrong way round. It's shaped to accept the rear screen and for some reason the rim of the portafilter.

All round the behaviour in this area seems to be a feature of the machine. Some one comments at times that the white gloves people over fill and it seems others do as well. The link I posted mentions people having the same problem.- customers?

In practice I usually aim to over fill very slightly but it gets very critical weight wise on the DB complicated by a low fill whuch can generate either a mess or what looks like a puck that expanded enough to hit the shower screen

The BE - doesn't do it and baskets can be used clearly under filled or over. I didn't make that many drinks with my Piccino but that seems to be much the same.

John

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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mine sticks occasionally. Doesn't seem to affect the taste though.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've had it change taste while trying to find out how much a basket holds. The "error" does seem to have to be rather large though - much too low and it gives a lot of taste variation shot to shot.








I just had a db sucks experience. Based on Sage grinders, weighing in I usually just stick the next type of bean in and get a mild blend with the first shot. On the mini a blend with bells on came out. Worse still weight was low and I didn't check it. It wont be by much but the puck stuck. Last time I looked at the Sage site they seemed to have reduced the price of the bottomless portafilter, still extreme compared with other makes after market parts but a lot better for and original part so I bought one. There was a lot of channelling on this shot.

So brushed and vac'd the grinder*. First shot lost 1/2g so I'll grind too much and adjust until it settles down. On this one I ground 3 beans and added those, not a good idea really. Then comes the oily bean bug bear. I'll probably have to coarsen the grind setting bit by bit as the burrs settle down to it.

* I used the domestic Henry on high power - tried the V8 with the crevice nozzle on before and it hardly removed any grinds at all. Henry - even the loose stuff around the burr.

John

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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

I've found I get much better results all around if I dose over 18g. 19/20g seems to be a happy place for the DB for me. Anything lower and the puck sticks to the screen, I get far more channelling and inconsistent shots. I think part of this is that I have a good DB machine and i'm still using a budget Sage SGP but hopefully the Niche should make the machine the weak link again.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

ajohn said:


> I've had it change taste while trying to find out how much a basket holds. The "error" does seem to have to be rather large though - much too low and it gives a lot of taste variation shot to shot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Taste change with the same brew ratio?

Suck experience? Blend? Bells? Henry?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I don't think the grinder will make any difference. I've found the same with an SGP, Mazzer Mini and now a Ceado. Bet it will be the same when I get a Robur running.

Where the sucking causes me grief is tuning especially with a new bean. Same basket and range so far 14.2g lowest and 15.7g highest. The best way round it seems to be to deliberately work high and then work down. Finding what is high seems to be a bit of a problem though. I did have some hopes for the razor but those went a while ago and didn't work out when I tried it again recently. Maybe razor + Xg - it does look to result in fills that are too low on beans i have used anyway.

I suppose I work to close limits but just went back to the 14.2g bean and 14.2 isn't any good any more. Might be grinder setting so looks like I will have to go higher, sort the grinder and then reduce the dose. That way any grinder change due to changing the weight in is small.

John

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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

No one mentioned grinders.

Is there a post I've missed?

Or am I on the wrong thread...or wrong forum.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

urbanbumpkin said:


> No one mentioned grinders.
> 
> Is there a post I've missed?
> 
> Or am I on the wrong thread...or wrong forum.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

urbanbumpkin said:


> No one mentioned grinders.
> 
> Is there a post I've missed?
> 
> Or am I on the wrong thread...or wrong forum.


You should try reading the posts - SGP and Niche mentioned.

Yes - looks to me like you are on the wrong thread.

John

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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

ajohn said:


> You should try reading the posts - SGP and Niche mentioned.
> 
> Yes - looks to me like you are on the wrong thread.
> 
> ...


Ah of course....I must be suffering from post exhaustion reading through the rest of it. I got lost at Henry.


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

Worst thing about the machine, does my nips in!

The problem goes away with certain coffees then returns with another, I consistently dose 18g in an 18g VST basket and updosing and down dosing doesn't have much of an affect.

Pulsing the brew button once doesn't always cut the mustard, sometimes it takes multiple hits and then a wonky dislodoging of the puck from the shower head tends to get it off. Different shower heads make zero difference either, I've tried 4 now, currently using an IMS La Marzocco one as it's the least messiest.

Damn you Sage!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I hesitate to say that the IMS woven Gaggia screen I am using helps but with my current brewing it always results in relatively loose pucks and if I get the dose correct they don't stick. Not much left in the basket either.







So have to say if some one tries it and it doesn't work out don't blame me. It needed a bit less coffee than the Sage one. I did think of trying to see if it really was better but can't see how I can realistically do that. I'm using it - full stop. Net result the grouphead brush gets used more often and the grinds that come off when the machine has dried out between sessions get brushed into the drip tray. It also has to be removed when the machine is descaled or the brew boiler wont drain. It tends to produce a more even shower when the portafilter is off.

What I've found on a basket that holds 14.8g of 2nd crack monsooned malabar which is a pretty light bean is that even an extra 0.2g stops it happening. Other beans have needed getting on for a gram more and highest yet is some Lavazza beans, 16g. The 0.2g increase still works on these. Holding it weighing in on my Mazzer is a pain.

I don't see this as over filling as there is room for the grinds to expand. I did put the maximum amount in the BE and found that at some point strength dropped off. On that I did it for strength but unlike the DB I could use lower levels - go too low and I just got sludgy pucks. I hate those and wont run like that.

Getting the level in the first place was painful. I thought signs of the shower screen on the puck meant that I might be over filling. I'd get that with all sorts of weights in. Some just wouldn't produce a stable taste. Some of this may be down to grinding into a container rather than the portafilter and or the particular style of basket I was using. My 14g is a standard 12g for another E61 sized machine, Fracino. I reckon it needs to hold something around 1mm more grinds than on the machine it's intended for.








The recent hot weather seems to be having an effect as well. A first for me on MM. That 14.8g was 14.4g not long ago. Grinder setting needs changing more often as well.

One thing that can help is to feel the weight of the portafilter just at the point where it releases.







Get back on quickly and turn to far and waddle it about. I didn't have much luck with a short button push releasing it either. Currently though it never happens providing the dose is right.

John

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## truegrace (Jan 29, 2014)

Started getting sticking pucks yesterday on my DB after a clean (probably 50+ shots so far with no sticking Puck) , wondering if I need to tighten the screw slightly on the screen but don't want to shear it off!

Using the same coffee and same dose as the last 10+ so can only attribute it to me cleaning maybe


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Unlikely to be the tightness of the screw (unless it is loose) Are you overdosing the basket ? too little expansin room cam jam the puck against the screen .

Rapidly releasing the pressure after a shot can form a vacuum and lift the puck.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

truegrace said:


> Started getting sticking pucks yesterday on my DB after a clean (probably 50+ shots so far with no sticking Puck) , wondering if I need to tighten the screw slightly on the screen but don't want to shear it off!
> Using the same coffee and same dose as the last 10+ so can only attribute it to me cleaning maybe


What the above post says. Sometimes is even coffee dependent. Leaving the porta filter in the group for a couple of minutes will also help as it dries up and the puck becomes lose.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

No don't over tighten the screw. It just needs nipping up. If you strip the thread or bust something you'll need Sage. By nipping up I mean a bit of a turn after it "feels solid".

It's a curious area. The dose seems to effect it and as little as 0.2g can have an effect. I've put a lot of 750g batches of the same bean through without a single stick. Yesterday I them stick. This morning it didn't stick. I suspect it's because I have been playing with tamping pressure  might be as sensitive as that. It's also about time I cleaned and backflushed so will be doing that later. Some one will be disgusted but with 2 maybe 3 shots a day I worry if I haven't done it for 2 months. I generally intend to do it once a month.

I find some beans always stick. I've had a spell of not trying a new bean for a while but tried part unlocked portafilter and a short pulse of the shot button with some recent beans that were acting up. I remove the portafilter though and then see that the puck has stuck so then stick it back on. On this new bean a slight change of dose fixed it.  I'm pretty used to sticking the portafilter back on and just use an angled group head brush after a stick especially on the seal. I use that now and again anyway especially when the group head is dry. As it's heated it is dry pretty quickly.

Personally I think the 3 way venting is too aggressive but having removed the solenoid for cleaning they do have 2 restrictors fitted but suspect that they are there really to prevent flow hitting aluminium. There are 2 short rather fine bore pieces of stainless tube there.

The BE pucks stick with a very slightly overfilled basket. Couple of 1/10 more stops that. Lots of tube is vented though so a lot more water gets dumped. They also use solenoids that can be bought with various vent sizes. Not sure they can on the type they use in the DB - which actually is a pretty standard part by the look of it.

John

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## truegrace (Jan 29, 2014)

Same beans, same dose.

Maybe due to burrs on the niche maybe, just a coincidence happened after taking the screen off. No big issue, just seemed a bit random!


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Has anyone tried a Teflon screen to see if it helps with sticking?

Most of mine stick and it pi$$es me off each time .

I'm using 18g VST with just over 17g in. May up the dose and see if it helps.

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## Mr Binks (Mar 21, 2019)

If you pressurise the group head just prior to taking the portafilter off the resulting explosion should clear any remaining parts of the puck from the shower head, then all you have to do is clean your entire kitchen. My only other advice would be to get a bigger basket or use a smaller dose.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Mr Binks said:


> If you pressurise the group head just prior to taking the portafilter off the resulting explosion should clear any remaining parts of the puck from the shower head, then all you have to do is clean your entire kitchen. My only other advice would be to get a bigger basket or use a smaller dose.


 haha dont. I've already had two days of my grinder chucking grounds everywhere.

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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

You can just slacken the PF but leave in place, pulse the brew button to push the puck down into the PF, and then lift clear. Only down side is a wet puck ?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It's a  Feature  of the machine Joey. On the bean I usual use it seldom happens. I put it down to dose but can't be sure. 0.2g variation can cause it to stick going on that and at odd times it does stick anyway. Not very often and when it does it appears to be down to playing with the grinds.

I'm pretty adept at putting the portafilter back on but as I mostly use a bean and set up that doesn't stick not so good at how long a brief button press is needed to get it off.  I'm getting more practice at the moment.

It can even happen with a low fill. I haven't tried the approach used on the BE. Slow increase in dose and the puck eventually sticks - say 0.2g more and it stops. I used that to max taste. Much more in and taste drops off.

My theory is that the 3 way action is too aggressive so wondered about restrictions to slow it down. When I took the solenoid out to clean it I found it has some. The solenoid sits on 2 ptfe discs with narrow bore stainless tube passing through them.

You might find 17g in the double works out.

John

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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

lake_m said:


> You can just slacken the PF but leave in place, pulse the brew button to push the puck down into the PF, and then lift clear. Only down side is a wet puck


That's what I'm currently doing, I just don't want to do it 

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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

ajohn said:


> It's a  Feature  of the machine Joey. On the bean I usual use it seldom happens. I put it down to dose but can't be sure. 0.2g variation can cause it to stick going on that and at odd times it does stick anyway. Not very often and when it does it appears to be down to playing with the grinds.
> I'm pretty adept at putting the portafilter back on but as I mostly use a bean and set up that doesn't stick not so good at how long a brief button press is needed to get it off.  I'm getting more practice at the moment.
> It can even happen with a low fill. I haven't tried the approach used on the BE. Slow increase in dose and the puck eventually sticks - say 0.2g more and it stops. I used that to max taste. Much more in and taste drops off.
> My theory is that the 3 way action is too aggressive so wondered about restrictions to slow it down. When I took the solenoid out to clean it I found it has some. The solenoid sits on 2 ptfe discs with narrow bore stainless tube passing through them.
> ...


Beans in the past have been ok. It's maybe just this batch perhaps.

I could always just use this as a perfect excuse to try a Teflon screen 

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> That's what I'm currently doing, I just don't want to do it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 You can also try catching the puck -  best use the portafilter as it's a bit hot.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> Beans in the past have been ok. It's maybe just this batch perhaps.
> 
> I could always just use this as a perfect excuse to try a Teflon screen
> 
> ...


 No harm in trying but I suspect a low dose may work with some beans. It has for me in the double but not always.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

One other aspect might help. Removing and cleaning the shower screen etc plus a back flush. The machine doesn't ask for that any where near often enough by a rather large margin.

Just thinking about recent sticking with my usual bean. May have been the cause or may not. I've been playing with grinds a lot lately.

John

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## truegrace (Jan 29, 2014)

Found the beans I'm currently using stick every time.

Gonna try upping the dose in the morning (going 18g in but seems to grind down alot so have had to drop a basket size to be able to tamp!)

Hopefully may fix it as they get proper stuck!


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

I'd gave it a clean after if started doing it first time. Was spotless under screen so it threw me.

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I use an IMS woven screen that I suspect helps a tiny bit but is very good at trapping grinds before they go into the machine. It appears to need a lower dose than the Sage one - not much in it really. I wouldn't want to guarantee it helps but feel I have had less problems with the double but I don't use it very often. My go to basket is one that holds a bit under 14g. Depends on the bean. I'm using a radically different bean in it at the moment and it's sticking. If 250g is enough to sort it out I will try dose changes - I've already tried higher by mistake and it stuck. It was obviously too high a fill but not way too much.

Otherwise not really looked at higher doses as it can suck it up with lower doses. The BE never stuck except at a rather precise fill height. They use a different make of solenoid in those and they appear to offer different internal orifice sizes. That may have enabled them to tune it. The small baskets are deeper as well for the same capacity. The DB uses a solenoid that is typical of many commercial machines. Doubt if the valves action is any different. Might be. I bought one when mine was rattling but it turned out to be down to a bit of sludge on the valve seating. It needs a solenoid plug adapter to fit to the DB. The DB uses 1/4 spade terminals.

Shouldn't have said typical commercial machine - more correctly one that others use.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I just switched to the double on a new bean. Stuck 17g in, definite under fill and it didn't stick. I've always had the impression that less coffee help. Argggg how much less though. This one was with very fine grinding as well. First shot nearly choked, 2nd still short but worth running on so rather dense pucks.

LOL I'm toying with the idea of getting the razor tool out again. The baskets I was using at the time may have been the real reason for the grief I had with it. Dam thing was perfect for a starting weight on the BE.

John

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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Dropping it 0.5g seemed to help. Although I've just got used to it sticking. Doesn't make any difference to taste

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## truegrace (Jan 29, 2014)

ajohn said:


> I just switched to the double on a new bean. Stuck 17g in, definite under fill and it didn't stick. I've always had the impression that less coffee help. Argggg how much less though. This one was with very fine grinding as well. First shot nearly choked, 2nd still short but worth running on so rather dense pucks.
> 
> LOL I'm toying with the idea of getting the razor tool out again. The baskets I was using at the time may have been the real reason for the grief I had with it. Dam thing was perfect for a starting weight on the BE.
> 
> ...


 I upped the dose with the beans I was using and so far, 8 shots in and no sticking. Very little head room in seems to do the job for me to get round the 3 way suction. New beans tomorrow however so we shall see


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

truegrace said:


> I upped the dose with the beans I was using and so far, 8 shots in and no sticking. Very little head room in seems to do the job for me to get round the 3 way suction. New beans tomorrow however so we shall see


 The BE was predictable going that way. At some point the puck did stick. Very little more prevented it from sticky. Kg's of coffee. Yet more caused a taste drop off which is why I have only really tried less on the DB. On the BE it resulted in an increased shot time.  I wasn't aware it was volumetric at the time but had stopped getting loads and loads of water going to the drip tray. That allows the volumetrics to work rather well.

John

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