# In A Quandary



## Saftlad (Nov 12, 2013)

Morning all,

first I'll set the scene. I recently got a Smart Grinder so that we can easily adjust between filter & aeropress grinds, and with a view towards getting a Classic for flat whites/lattes/cappuccinos.

The grinder works fine for the quantity that I need.

Finally got my Classic yesterday, which is a Phillips version. It only came with pressurised baskets so I'm assuming the pressure is set quite high.

I've got the grinder as fine as it will go, and the only way I can get the extraction to run to 25s for 17g in 25g out, is to tamp with all my weight behind it. Ive got a pressure gauge on its way to confirm and adjust the OPV as necessary.

The question I've got for today is whether I should stick with the Smart grinder and hope that the pressure does need reducing, thereby increasing the time of extraction/requiring less tamp/coarser grind, or should I return it to JL and plump the money on a Mignon?

If I get caught up in the bug and in future decide to upgrade my machine to HX or Brewtus (unlikely due to cost but you never know!) would the Mignon be able to keep up with me?

I'm not made of money, and swmbo has a tight grip on the purse strings, so everything has to pass the kitchen test. I can't imagine us ever getting anything commercially sized.

thanks and sorry for the long read.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Duplicate post of below


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

You need a non pressurised basket to get the extractions ratios you are looking for . The pressurised basket is designed for use with mainly pre ground coffee.

Don't do anything Til you have a new basket and can experiment with it .

After getting this , you need to check to see if your smart grinder came pre shimmed , as without this it might struggle to go fine enough for espresso . Sage were going to pre shim all uk stock , it depends if this was done before they went to Jl or not .

Dont panic until you get a new basket .


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## Saftlad (Nov 12, 2013)

Sorry, I should have said I'm using non-pressured double basket. I've also confirmed with Sage that the grinder is pre-shimmed. It's probably had about 500g of beans through it by now at different grind levels, maybe a little more.

If I'm going to return the grinder, I would prefer to do it before Christmas. I know JL are good over returns but I don't want to kick the behind out of it.

Thanks


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Saftlad said:


> Sorry, I should have said I'm using non-pressured double basket. I've also confirmed with Sage that the grinder is pre-shimmed. It's probably had about 500g of beans through it by now at different grind levels, maybe a little more.
> 
> If I'm going to return the grinder, I would prefer to do it before Christmas. I know JL are good over returns but I don't want to kick the behind out of it.
> 
> Thanks


Process of elimination ...

Ok where are the beans form and what is the roast date on them?


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## SimonB (Sep 12, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Process of elimination ...


5p says it's not shimmed!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Does anyone know how he could tell if it's been shimmed or not by a photo ?

could be this or freshness of beans or distribution in PF , or a combination of all three .

cheers


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Does anyone know how he could tell if it's been shimmed or not by a photo ?
> 
> could be this or freshness of beans or distribution in PF , or a combination of all three .
> 
> cheers


Another member who tried the Smart Grinder (possibly dfk) said it was capable of choking his machine on the lowest settings, I can't see this being a bean or distribution problem.

I would also guess that it has not been shimmed. If its an addition for the UK market it could well have been missed.

Anyone who did the shim themselves (coffeechap? dfk?) might be able to help out here explaining how to check.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I can take the one I have apart and take the shim out and reassemble to see if there is any visual difference. That said, checking for yourself is easy, just unlock and remove the hopper, then unlock and remove the upper burr carrier, you then have access to the lower burr, all you then do is remove the nut on top of that, pull the burr off and see what is underneath.

AS far as I'm aware the only one of us that has had their hands on a Smart Grinder and had to do the shims himself is Glenn, can't remember if DFK had to do his own, but I know Coffeechap and myself have had pre-shimmed demo models.

Regarding choking machines, I have been able to choke both my Classic and the Sage DB with the Smart Grinder, just gave up on the Smart Grinder as I haven't got enough coffee to waste using something that makes my coffee taste worse, so I'm sticking to using my RR55.


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## Saftlad (Nov 12, 2013)

Sorry, been out for the day.

Beans are HB Jailbreak, dated 26 Nov. ok, so not the freshest but I would still have thought they would be ok.

I'll take the grinder apart to see if there is a shim there. Thanks so far.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Beans should be fine. Would suggest it's the grinder then. Do you have naked PF to use as well?


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## Saftlad (Nov 12, 2013)

I called Sage when I first collected the grinder and was told that they are all shimmed now.

Ive taken the burrs out and can confirm that there is a single shim under the spring washer (SimonB owes the forum 5p







). CoffeeSnobs seems to indicate that people have installed up to 10 shims to get it right, so I guess it could need more.

So I my question is now do I get Sage to send me more shims to get it finer, or cut my losses and return it, and that depends on whether it would be suitable if I upgraded my machine at a later date. I'd rather not go through any trouble now if the grinder is going to need to be replaced in 18 months anyway.

Tbh, I'm leaning towards returning it anyway. If I decide espresso making isn't for me, I'm likely to lose less selling on a Mignon than a Sage.

Thanks


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## Saftlad (Nov 12, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Beans should be fine. Would suggest it's the grinder then. Do you have naked PF to use as well?


Damn it, you're going to ask me to video it for critique aren't you lol. I'll see what I can do, but please be gentle - I've only been brewing for 24 hours


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

The grinder referred to on Coffeenobs is the previous version of the Smart Grinder not the Sage version so the whole thing about up to 10 shims has hopefully been solved. I've been able to choke the Sage DB and my Classic with the Smart Grinder with a single shim in it, although from the state in which it arrived it seems it has had a fair bit of use, so it may be that the burrs need a little bedding in. Have you been adjusting the grind level whilst it is running?


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## Saftlad (Nov 12, 2013)

I've been adjusting the grind level to ultra fine whilst running beans through it, then chucking them into the filter pot for brewing, not for on the Classic. Once it runs through the first time, I run another timed grind through it before grinding direct to the PF. Once it's set on the lowest grind level, I haven't rerun any to waste prior to grinding to the PF. Grind amount is usually 1cup +4 bars = ~17g.

I hope this means that the burrs are set correctly by the time I use it for the real extraction?

Video will be up in about an hour (superslow broadband out in the sticks I'm afraid) -










I haven't shown any of the grind or tamp, hopefully the extraction will show ok. 17g in, 25.8g out in 24s. Grind was still as fine as it would go, and tamped with a lot of weight.

Thanks MrBoots & Charlie for your help over this. Much appreciated.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Honestly , this is a purely subjective opinion base pd on no evidence a tall . I'd send it back and get a mignion , at least they are a known quantity pay and plenty will testify to it doing a good job for espresso . Shimming etc makes me nervous of the grinder being capable . Plus cofffee chap alluded to it struggling after 4-5 grind back to back .

So lie, I said based on not a lot expect there are people on here happy with the mignion ,it works out the box and is reliable...


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## SimonB (Sep 12, 2013)

Saftlad said:


> SimonB owes the forum 5p
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dammit, this is just like losing the Mythos raffle all over again.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm at a total loss as to why one Smart Grinder can choke the Sage DB and a Classic and another can't even choke a Classic. That said mine is an older Classic and it's running at an indicated 10.5 BAR on a pressure Gauge and the Sage DB is running at 9 BAR so unless your Classic is running stupidly high pressure you should still be able to choke the machine.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Ok some further questions in case I've missed something.

What tamper are you using?

Are you actually weighing the weight that goes into the portafilter or are you single dosing?

Counter intuitively grinding too find and tamping like King Kong can cause a shot to run too fast by making "wormholes" in the puck, but your shot on the video looks to be running ok, but the million dollar question is what did it taste like?

I'm still at a loss of exactly what to make of this grinder, my Dad has the older model and one of the more expensive Sunbeam espresso machines over in Australia and it seemed to work fine but I never even asked him if he had any shims in it, it just didn't occur to me at the time. I wish they had sent Gary a grinder as well then at least we could get an opinion on it for brewed coffee, I've given up on using the review grinder as I can't see the point in making good coffee taste worse when I have my RR55 to use, make of that what you will. Given £200 to spend I'd be speaking to Coffeechap and scouring the bay, Gumtree, Loot etc for an ex commercial and if you are prepared to go for something that isn't a Mazzer there are still a few bargains out there in the wild if you are prepared and have the skills to strip down, clean and rebuild a grinder.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Video of shot prep please, its all guessing otherwise


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## Saftlad (Nov 12, 2013)

The weight is measured after grinding (direct to basket), with any excess removed to keep the shot at 17g. No wormholes in the puck, just a slight pattern from the showerhead.

Shot prep is:

Insert to PF (spring removed)

Stir with a 2" sewing pin (WDT?)

Tamp with a Cuisinart 57mm tamper using NSEW then full overall tamp

Polish

Fit and start shot

All a bit pointless though, as I've made my mind up that I'll book the return for the Sage on Monday and get a Mignon from BB. I'm not wonderful at breaking down and fixing things, usually end up with too many spare parts afterwards







so I'll pay full price and worry about losing a bit afterwards. Hopefully, a Mignon will do me for the next upgrade of machine too.

I've wasted enough of my time thinking about what to do, and your time trying to analyse what might be the issue. Life is too short.

It will be interesting to see what pressure the unit is running at though, when my gauge drops through the letterbox.

Thanks one and all


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Plus cofffee chap alluded to it struggling after 4-5 grind back to back .
> 
> So lie, I said based on not a lot expect there are people on here happy with the mignion ,it works out the box and is reliable...


I put 250g through my Mignon in one go on Friday and it didn't skip a beat


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