# The Facts from the Fiction (Types of Espresso Machine)



## pedg (Apr 11, 2017)

*PART 1*

As my search for a new espresso machine draws to a conclusion, the purpose of this thread is to report some of my findings, dispel a few myths and provide a some advice for other members to choose a new machine. I apologies in advance that it is a bit long-winded.

I started making 'real' coffee a good few years ago with a pod coffee machine from Bosch. I enjoyed real coffee, and can't stand instant 'coffee'! I progressed from that to an Aeropress, and used this sucessfully for 18 months or more until I purchased my first real espresso machine in October last year, a Sage Duo Temp Pro single thermoblock, basic espresso machine. I have used this sucessfully and produced some really good espressos, however its limitations started to frustrate me so it was sold and the search for another machine began, This post won't be concerned with the limitations of the Sage, but I can write a small piece on request.

*Rancilio Silvia*

*
*My first thought was to replace the Sage with a Rancilio Silvia. This is still a single boiler design, but has a proper boiler with a replaceable/serviceable element, and a 58mm commercial style portafilter which can be used with naked portafilters and VST Precision baskets. It also retains the small footprint of the Sage. The Rancilio was the favored option for many months, but I wanted to wait until the Sage sold before purchasing another machine. However...

*The Seed was Sown*

I then looked around at what else was available, and thought that maybe it would be a better idea to get a more capable machine than the Silvia, as the Silvia essentially did the same as the Sage, and one of the big issues with that was workflow when I needed to make multiple cappuccinos (or a-n other milky coffee).

*
HX & Dual Boiler*

The next logical step was either a Heat Exchanger (HX) machine or go the full distance and get a good quality dual-boiler (DB) machine, both of which would allow me to brew espresso and steam milk simultaneously. At this point I was unaware of the hand-lever machines and the options were:

Profitec 700 (DB)

Quick Mill Verona (DB)

ECM Mechanika (HX)

ECM Synchronika (DB)

I did a bit of digging, and the unanimous verdict was that a dual boiler machine was 'better', as it allowed for better temperature stability and therefore greater consistency. However, this point is widely debated among HX and DB users. As it was seen to be 'better', at this point I was leaning towards the DB option. I called David at Bella Barista who recommended both the Profitec and the ECM Synchronika, and said they are identical inside, and both are good machines. I was leaning towards the Synchronika but needed to see both before I could make a final decision. I had decided to pay a visit to Bella Barista (BB) a week or so later when I had a day off, and see the machines in person with every intention of buying one.

*Hand-Lever Machine*

I don't remember how or when, but possibly from reading posts on here, my attention was drawn to the sprung hand-lever machines. I did a bit of research and reading up on these machines, and established that the claim is that they produce a much better espresso than a pump machine. Again I was skeptical of this as it is widely accepted that pump machines are capable of producing world class espresso. As a left field choice I looked at the Profitec 800 briefly, and decided that I would take a look when I went to buy a machine from BB on my next day off.

Anyway, the more I read the more I liked the idea of the hand machine, and at this point made my first post on here.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?37373-ECM-Synchronika-Profitec-700-or-Profitec-800-Lever-Machine-Your-thoughts-please!

It was in this thread that dfk41 suggested that the Profitec 800 is not very popular 'over ere' and the Londinium 1 (L-R) is 'better' for a similar price. I looked into this, and discovered that indeed the Londinium looked like a formidable piece of kit, but at this point didn't understand why it was any better or any worse than the Profitec. It looks a little flasher without a doubt, and as I had no clue what the difference between a 'dipper' and a 'thermosiphon' was, I needed to know more.

*
So, a hand-lever machine it is then?*

Roundabout this time I'd 'narrowed it down' once again, this time to the ECM Synchronika (as a DB option) or the Londinium. I'd spoken to Lee at Foundry who could supply (eventually) a Londinium R and was suitably impressed with it, and had spoken to several DB Machine owners who could testify that the DB was the way towards better coffee.

*Confused...you bet!*

As it was coming up to my days off I put a feeler out on here to see what you guys thought.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?37393-Londinium-R-vs-ECM-Synchronika-the-big-decision!

workingdog Kindly offered a chance to see and experience his Londinium, an offer which I gratefully took him up on the day before my trip to BB.

Stay tuned for the next episode which, arguably, is the most important bit.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I loved reading your account . . . Really funny!



> before my trip to BB.


oooooooohhhh!!! Have you BEEN? I can't wait to see the outcome!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@pedg

Glad to see someone actually doing a bit of research and leg work and not simply relying upon advice proffered here! You have to watch out when asking for advice because every owner thinks their kit is the best which is not very subjective really. I deliberately did not bang on about the pro 800. I have had a fair few machines and several different levers which is why I said the old L1 is better, and yes, I do have one (again). You might get to BB and prefer the Profitec. Ask them to explain in detail about how a dipper works and the routines you have to follow to make a shot. Then if you have not made your mind up, ask again about how the thermosyphon system works

Good luck


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## pedg (Apr 11, 2017)

*PART 2*

So, at this stage, I had spoken to Lee at Foundry, Reiss at Londinium and David at Bella Barista and was almost set on buying a Londinium R. I liked the idea of the lever, liked the new features (rotary pump) but was advised by @workingdog; not to part with my money under any circumstances until I'd seen and experienced each machine on my list (ECM Synchronika and Londinium R at the very least).

*
**VERY** GOOD ADVICE!*

I organised a day to experience the Londinium 1 (the old style, but works in exactly the same fashion, just a little noisier), and went for a good couple of hours with a bag of freshly roasted beans from http://www.theblendingroom.co.uk/ which happened to be my favorite roast currently available, and a roast I was familiar with, so I could taste the difference (or not...) on the Londinium.

*Londinium 1 'Test Drive'*

My initial thoughts were of the size of the Londinium and whether it would actually fit in my 'compact' kitchen. But it would, just. Myself and @workingdog; then proceeded to demolish a full (250g) bag of beans 'experimenting' with the L1. It took a while to get it dialed in, but once it was dialed in properly we were producing espresso with tastes, textures and body that I had never experienced before on my Sage machine. The difference was obvious. Needless to say I was hugely impressed!! It also had powerful steaming capabilities, and was pleasing to look at, and the comments from @workingdog; mirrored comments from other owners on the various forums.

I left with a caffeine induced 'hangover' having drunk a little too much [coffee], with the idea in my mind that it was almost certainly going to be the L-R as soon as it became available. However, I'd also decided and agreed that I would make the 340 mile round trip to BB the next day to try the Synchronika, just to be sure.

*At this point I must extend special thanks to @workingdog; for inviting me for a 'test-drive'. Absolute diamond geezer and this was massively appreciated and very beneficial!*

*Bella Barista Day*

The next day, as agreed with @workingdog; I made the 300-odd mile round trip to Northampton. I arrived around late morning and David had already prepared the machines I wanted to test. These were:

ECM Barista (I think, but definitely an ECM HX. Possibly the Mechanika)

Quick Mill Verona (QM-V, DB)

Rocket Something-or-other (personally the Rocket machines are not my 'cup of tea', so wasn't really interested in this)

Profitec 800 (Sprung Hand-Lever).

We had a couple of awful espressos on the QM-V, then dialed the grinder in properly, and eventually got some really good shots that were pulling really well. First impressions were that the espressos, whilst excellent, were not massively better than I'd been getting out of my £300 Sage machine. They were better, but there wasn't a lot in it, if I'm brutally honest.

At this point I decided I needed to change tack and 'taste and spit' as I didn't want to get myself into the same state I had done the previous day with @workingdog;! Not particularly elegant I know, but effective and definitely worked!

We then tasted a couple of espressos from good-pulls from the ECM HX machine, and here came the first revelation:

*MYTH -DB Machines Produce 'Better' Espresso than HX Machines*

*
**Absolute Rubbish*

Tasted side by side, with the same water, beans and grinder, made minutes apart using the techniques appropriate to the machine type, the two Espressos from the two different machine styles mentioned above were virtually indistinguishable in look, taste, smell and mouth feel. We repeated this test 2 or 3 times to ensure the first one wasn't a fluke, and got exactly the same result in the cup every time. They were very (VERY) slightly different, but the difference was absolutely minuscule, and in fact, in each side-by-side comparison, I personally preferred the output of the HX machine over and above that of the the DB. I couldn't really quantify why, as the difference was so subtle, but I would say that it was a very slightly more rounded and involving cup of coffee. Don't ask me to explain that, I don't know how to!

*So, is a Dual Boiler machine 'better' than the equivalent HX Machine?*

Absolutely not. It's different, and would come down to how you use a machine. But neither philosophy is any better or any worse than the other, both produce excellent, virtually indistinguishable espresso, and the differences in quality in the cup would purely be down to other factors such as the quality of the bean, grinder, water and the person using the machine.

*
Why would you choose one over the other?*

I'm no expert particularly, apart from my research before blowing a small fortune on an espresso machine, but for me it would come down to workflow above anything else.

Dual Boiler -If your thing was producing multiple (4/5 or more at once) espresso based milky coffees of whatever variety fairly regularly, and you will be steaming a lot of milk, I would say that the temperature of a Dual Boiler would be more stable, as depleting the steam boiler with multiple, quick-fire steaming sessions would have little effect on the brew boiler, which would still be temperature stable for producing good shots. For the heavier use home steaming enthusiast, I'd probably recommend a DB However...

Heat Exchanger -If you make mainly milk-less espresso based drinks, or steam milk for a smaller number of drinks less regularly (as I would), I would say you would be just as well saving a few quid and getting a Heat Exchanger machine. It would still have the ability to produce excellent shots, would have the ability to concurrently steam milk, but would be cheaper and more compact. An argument for HX machines is also that they always draw fresh water through the HX whereas DB machines have water sitting in the brew boiler getting stale. This, potentially would be another advantage for lighter users, but sounds a bit of an iffy argument to me.

What I can say for sure though is that you won't get 'better' espresso out of a DB machine when compared to a HX. Its a workflow thing and also...

*Know how to use your machine*

This is quite important as the technique for using a DB is slightly different to that of a HX.

*So, now EVEN MORE confused...*

*ECM Mechanika vs Profitec 800*

At this point David had been tolerating me (somehow) for over an hour and we'd explored the pump driven machines. I'd come to the conclusion that the extra spend (£750) on the DB wouldn't be worth it for me, and if I was going to go down the pump-driven route, it would be the ECM Mechanika. A superb machine at a superb price. I'd feel spending the extra on the Synchronika would just be wasting money, as I wouldn't see any real benefit to it. Especially not in the cup, where it actually matters. At this point Marko stepped in and pretty much re-iterated this. Very knowledgeable guy!

So, it was time to make the move to the reason I'd just spent 2 1/2 hours in the car, the Profitec Pro 800 Sprung-lever machine.

David pulled me a shot on this, and to be honest the first one was pretty naff, as usual, and went straight in the sink. The second and third were pretty similar but we eventually got a good pull.

*WOW!*

What can I say. Before I'd even taken a sip I knew how much better this coffee was than from either of the pumped machines. I had visited BB thinking it was going to be a small, subtle difference, but it was as subtle as a flying brick! The flavors and mouth feel just hit me and the espresso from this machine was SO MUCH BETTER it was hard to believe! We carried on pulling shots on the 800, and although not every one was brilliant, the ones that did come out well were simply divine!

*I wasn't expecting this!!!*

After trying the Londinium the previous day on its own with nothing to compare it to, then comparing 2 top end prosumer pump-driven machines to the Profitec 800 in a side by side taste test, I can say with certainty that the quality in the cup from a Lever machine (for my tastes) blows a pump machine right out the water. There may be some people who prefer the slightly muted less flavorsome coffee from a pump machine, but that 'some people' isn't me! For anyone wishing to disagree, please be aware that these are my opinions and my opinions only and although I'll happily listen to another point of view, the results in the cup spoke for themselves!

The espressos from the 800 were actually so good, I felt compelled to finish them as pouring them down the sink would have been sacrilege. So much for not going home with the jitters!

*Conclusion: Lever vs Pump*

For me, lever, no question. Done!

*
Which Lever? The Londinium or the Profitec Pro 800*

I will write an in depth comparison of both, with what I can see are the relative advantages and disadvantages and which one I chose in Part 3...Coming soon!

Cheers for reading

GP


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## adz313 (Apr 13, 2016)

nice write up @pedg - your research is at a higher level (i.e. price point) than mine, but interesting to see your process none the less!

Look forward to Part 3


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Wonderful reading! Really enjoying this!


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

A good read. Glad the trip here and to BB were worthwhile.

Theres nothing better than encouraging someone else to spend their money (although little persuasion was needed)


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Excellent story! I can't wait for part 3.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The only downside for you is that the the LR is a different beast to the Londinium1!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Glad you reached a decision at last . What grinder did you use when you were at Bella Barista btw ? Were they weighing in and out , just out of interest ?

I can see lots of mentions of the machines you tried but one of the biggest impacts will be the coffee and the grinder paired with on each occasion.


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## mcrmfc (Sep 17, 2016)

Awesome read...also intrigued about your reference grinder choice.


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## pedg (Apr 11, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Glad you reached a decision at last . What grinder did you use when you were at Bella Barista btw ? Were they weighing in and out , just out of interest ?
> 
> I can see lots of mentions of the machines you tried but one of the biggest impacts will be the coffee and the grinder paired with on each occasion.


The reference grinder was a COMPAK E8, and of course we were weighing in and out...That's basic stuff that. So basic I didn't even think it was worth mentioning. It couldn't possibly be a fair test otherwise.

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/compak-e8-od-espresso-coffee-grinder-total-matt-black.html

We also tested this against a Ceado E37s, which was comparable.

And, just for the sheer sake of it, we tested the Rocket grinder which was a clump monster and pretty nasty to use. Not my type of grinder at all. With this we struggled to produce consistent, good results with the Profi 800, but it was good too see how the grinder made a difference to the final result.

This wasn't mentioned in the review, as it was centered around Espresso machines rather than grinders, which are a different thing altogether.

Also @coffeechap the Old L1 and the new LR are not that different. They work on the same principle, only the LR has a rotary pump which allows a higher pressure pre-infusion. Hardly 'a different beast', and I think you struggle to tell the difference in the cup.

Hope this helps!

GP


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

pedg said:


> Also @coffeechap the Old L1 and the new LR are not that different. They work on the same principle, only the LR has a rotary pump which allows a higher pressure pre-infusion. Hardly 'a different beast', and I think you struggle to tell the difference in the cup.
> 
> [GP


Just spat my coffee out









(sorry OP, was a little like saying the Pope might not understand Catholicism)

Nice write up otherwise

John


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

CCs reply will be interesting !!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

what is your roast preference? The L1 shines with darker stuff, the LR with lighter as you can effectively vary the opv


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

I applaud the write ups and the process, if it was me I would want to live with both machines and swop between them, I am not sure a particular machine in a particular setting can always be comparable, water quality, machine age - is it just commissioned and out the box or has it been run in. As a humble pav user part of the fun is trying for consistency through tweaking technique and understanding the machines personality.

Best of luck anyway

cheers Jim


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## pedg (Apr 11, 2017)

dfk41 I'd generally go for a medium to dark with an espresso machine, and if I wanted to go light, I'd tend to brew up with the Chemex. My roaster designs his roasts to be optimal for one or the other, and although he makes bright, zingy light roasts you can put through an espresso machine, I generally wouldn't and he generally wouldn't recommend it.

The differences are here:

https://londiniumespresso.com/blog/blog/3104/2017-lever-espresso-machine-offering

I apologise if I offended anyone, but they don't look night and day to me, and the table Reiss produced even states there is no significant improvement in taste in the cup for traditional dark roast extractions. The new machine certainly doesn't look like a 'different beast'. If Reiss backed up the claims he has made about pre-infusion with taste testing and evidence, I may change my mind,but at the end of the day a spring is still pushing water through a coffee puck.

I try to write my reviews from a 'real world' perspective, and report on my findings rather than 'theory', and how things work in the real world rather than how they are supposed to work on paper. Hence writing what I wrote about the HX machine. It's probably poking a wasps nest to a lot of DB users, but I struggled to tell the difference in the cup, which is where it matters.

If anyone has a L1 and and LR that can be tested side by side in a blind test I'd be more than willing to see if I could tell the difference in the cup.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I quite enjoyed reading your review and for your roast preference, you are almost right. For darker roasts ( which many folk would consider over roasted) then there will not be a significant difference in the cup as you would want to reduce preinfusion pressure and thus reduce overall temperature to get the the optimal extraction for that profile of coffee. (On the LR)

Where your assumption on different beasts falls down is in the medium and lighter range (or optimally roasted coffee zone) here the higher preinfusion and increased temperature capabilities of the LR really shine through and having a little experience in both the l1 and the LR and am in a position to express my personal findings with some confidence.

Enjoy your new purchase whatever that may be


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## pedg (Apr 11, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> I quite enjoyed reading your review and for your roast preference, you are almost right. For darker roasts ( which many folk would consider over roasted) then there will not be a significant difference in the cup as you would want to reduce preinfusion pressure and thus reduce overall temperature to get the the optimal extraction for that profile of coffee. (On the LR)
> 
> Where your assumption on different beasts falls down is in the medium and lighter range (or optimally roasted coffee zone) here the higher preinfusion and increased temperature capabilities of the LR really shine through and having a little experience in both the l1 and the LR and am in a position to express my personal findings with some confidence.
> 
> Enjoy your new purchase whatever that may be


Thanks for clearing that up coffeechap thats super. I haven't actually chosen one way or the other or comitted to buy one as yet, so Part 3 is still in the making. Im still weighing up the relative pros and cons of each.

Your point about the lighter roasts on the LR is a very valid one, and now I understand what you mean. The confusion was down to differing usage of the term you used.

I personally would say a Slayer is a 'different beast' to an ECM Mechanika, and that the LR is a 'definite improvement' over the orignal L1, if you know what I mean. In the same sense that the new Golf GTI is a definite improvement over the old one, but the Audi RS4 is a 'different beast'!

Cheers

GP


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Hi @pedg

No offence taken, far from it nor intended no doubt. At the danger of answering on someone elses behalf, what you may have missed was that the LR as an upgrade is potentially better than the older L1 (LI-P now renamed LI just to add confusion) thus maybe stating if you thought the old L1 was good the LR might be pleasantly better (if that makes sense)

The bit I was quoting on that you may not have picked up on is that @coffeechap probably has more experience with Londinium machines than most on the forum, indeed some of us are in possession of some of his previous machines, hence my smiley face, which you may have taken not in the manner intended (just made me chuckle is all







)

Unlike a lot of other forums out there, there is very little offence given / taken and if we do "rib" every now and again, is only for lightheartedness.

Genuinely enjoying reading your journey as I did for your other posts.

John

p.s. as an LII owner am biased towards levers and may enjoy a darker roast as well


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think the easiest way to look at this is:

if you have an HX and like darker stuff you are in luck as the machine is set to a certain temp which is suited to darker roasts. If you wanted a lighter roast you would be knackered, whereas if you had a DB with a pid, you could adjust the temp.

The old L1 was a fixed temp machine where it was possible to adjust the opv if you wanted and therefore suited to darker roasts but not having the ability to tweek at all for lighter. it still handled lighter roasts but not as well. The LR is aimed at lighter roasts to up the game by allowing tweeks to bar pressure whilst still allowing you to reduce the pressure for darker. The LR has replaced the old L1, so they are very similar but very different. The only way of buying an L1 is secondhand


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

You could vary the temp on the old l1 , you just needed to know where to pull the lever in relation to the pstat.....


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> You could vary the temp on the old l1 , you just needed to know where to pull the lever in relation to the pstat.....


Not to the same extent as the LR


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Not to the same extent as the LR


Yeah but you could







wasn't fixed temp


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## Split Shot (Sep 24, 2016)

I do like these kind of threads. @pedg

It sounds like your learning about what you like, making your own mind up, drinking nice coffee and having fun along the way.

In my book you've already won!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am not saying you could not play around with the settings, as you can with any machine, but I am saying it was not designed to be user friendly in that department


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Great read. Not sure how feasible it would be but if you could hire coffee machines (or grinders) to try at home it would make the buying process a lot easier.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> I think the easiest way to look at this is:
> 
> if you have an HX and like darker stuff you are in luck as the machine is set to a certain temp which is suited to darker roasts. If you wanted a lighter roast you would be knackered, whereas if you had a DB with a pid, you could adjust the temp.
> 
> The old L1 was a fixed temp machine where it was possible to adjust the opv if you wanted and therefore suited to darker roasts but not having the ability to tweek at all for lighter. it still handled lighter roasts but not as well. The LR is aimed at lighter roasts to up the game by allowing tweeks to bar pressure whilst still allowing you to reduce the pressure for darker. The LR has replaced the old L1, so they are very similar but very different. The only way of buying an L1 is secondhand


Or you can add a group head thermo to a HX and do some cooling flush and timing trickery to get a different temp to suit the roast.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Nopapercup said:


> Not sure how feasible it would be but if you could hire coffee machines (or grinders) to try at home it would make the buying process a lot easier.


dfk41 already does this...purchases equipment that interests him then if he decides it's not for him, sells it on and any shortfall between purchase price and sale price is deemed the cost of renting the equipment whilst it was in use.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

DoubleShot said:


> dfk41 already does this...purchases equipment that interests him then if he decides it's not for him, sells it on and any shortfall between purchase price and sale price is deemed the cost of renting the equipment whilst it was in use.


That's one of the advantages of investing in decent equipment . . . time to start weighing the possible benefits of a [pleasing appliance of choice] and another grinder, methinks!

Looking forward to the next instalment, pedg


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## Planter (Apr 12, 2017)

Really enjoying this read and the time you're putting into it. Good luck on your selection. Whatever it is....


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