# My Sage DB Just arrived



## ajohn

Yes may seem to be an odd thing to happen but now seems to be an ideal time. One reason is that it's a refurb and was the last one out of this batch.The other is less obvious and depends on what happens with my BE. I've no concerns about the Ebay refurb seller as have dealt with them before and have seen used machines for sale at not too dissimilar prices. Only a 12month return to base warrantee rather than the usual 2 years.

All I've done so far is give it a look over. No signs of any marks. The only sign of use is a damp water filter so it's very probably a return. The same company also sell some as used with no warrantee other than a certain time to return it if not happy. I've wondered how they decide which is which also who does the refurb.

Surprises. The grouphead is all metal and a 2 wing portafilter. From conversations I expected some of the grouphead to be plastic. Not concerned providing Sage have balanced out that's heat up time with the boilers.

Problems of a sort. Minor at this price really. Mix up of baskets, no manual and I thought they came with a water hardness kit. If so both that and any cleaning consumables they supply are missing. They are manufacturer refurbs so wonder why this sort of thing happens. 2 single pressurised baskets, 1 double pressurised basket and a Teflon coated single basket - doesn't sound very professional manufacturer wise and suggests who ever threw them in the box had no idea what was what. If the filter had been changed I wouldn't even know it had been used.







Anyway I'm happy and not much to sort out really.

Next thing is to check for faults.

Maybe some one can tell me if they do came with a water hardness test kit ???

John

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## 4085

The water test thing is a single strip which is glued to the front over of the manual. It is a bit like an alkali strip and all you do is when turning the machine on for the first time, it will ask you to put a value in between 1 and 5. Again, all this does is to suggest to your machine when to alert you to various things so no big deal

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?34666-Sage-DB-is-this-acceptable&highlight=sage

end of page 2 explains how to reduce the pump pressure


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## Dylan

Hard water testing kit, as described by dfk above can be found free from:

http://www.scalewatcher.co.uk/#

or

https://www2.brita.net/teststripe-registration.html?L=1


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## ajohn

Thanks for that. I wonder if any one knows what these numbers mean in the usual hardness degrees that are used. No need for a test strip then as all waterboards in the UK publish figures by people's address. They need the address as actual water sources can vary. I'd be inclined to set for harder than we get anyway as ours is very soft.

Some may know of a man who said "Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" after producing the bomb. I have thought about adding a forum signature that states "Now I am become death, the destroyer of beans, I brew at 15 bar". Trouble is I like the drink and have been wondering how I will get on with lower. I suspect the same effect can be achieved by playing with the numbers in that link, A new learning curve but the Piccino was ok. It just needed a bit more coffee.

Heat up time - hopefully just need to press the button before feeding the dog.







If she'll let me do something else before dishing out her food.

John

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## ajohn

Amazon sell packets of hardness test strips. Assuming all are the same they go 0, 50, 125, 250, 500 ppm. Our water is 2.72 Clark. A web converter puts that at 15.5ppm. Another puts it as 39 ppm. So will set 1 and also get a test strip out of curiosity. I'd guess that the difference is due to permanent hardness aspects but school was too long ago to remember clearly.

On the other hand maybe 2 and see how often it comes up.

I assume the numbers do go up with hardness?

John

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## ajohn

Not good. It did steam and then I reset to factory defaults as the brew temperature was way down. No steam just 3 beeps. Checking things - cold water out of the steam drain valve, pump runs to fill the boiler up again. Hot water out of the brew drain valve and pump runs to fill it up again. So looks like the steam boiler isn't heating up at all.

There seems to be a number of different comments around about this happening on these dual boilers. Anyone have any clues or experience of the same problem.

John

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## craigsalisbury

The steam boiler takes a couple more minutes to get up to temp from the brew boiler.

I turn mine on, once the temp indicator hits 94 (what mine is set to) all the lights indicate its ready....for brewing. if i pull the steam i get those 3 beeps until the steam boiler has hit temp, which is another 1-2 minutes. pull the steam then and no beeps and the steam light illuminates.


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## 4085

Before you muck on with it, get in touch with the seller. It ought to have arrived working (Obviously). What temp does the pid show as 93 is the default ? There is a secret menu that lets you alter everything. Here is a link to the handbook in case you do not have it

http://www.lakeland.co.uk/content/documents/19340_Sage_Dual_Boiler_Instructions.pdf


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## ajohn

Thanks but I downloaded the manual before turning it on and found brew temp was at 83C so used the menu that can be obtained from power up to reset to defaults. That also allowed me to set water hardness. I've left it on more than long enough for the steam boiler to heat up even long enough for it to turn itself off and the water in it is still cold.

I don't know what the seller does in terms of warrantee. Could be back to them for repair or a straight refund. I could go for a straight refund anyway working or not. I did some web searches for dual boiler no steam. Most relate to Breville. *'*it happens. One comment is a little worrying. Breville give 3 sets of instructions for descaling. Going on a comment the middle one of those that was updated pretty quickly is down to a software update that could cause the steam boiler heater to remain on during descaling. The result can be the element burning out or a thermal fuse going pop. End result 3 peeps when steam is selected. It seems other machines have had the same problem for other reasons. It seems the other reason for the beeps can be water level checks.

So when I filled the tank and switched on I wondered what the hell was going on for some time. Pump going crazy - I do know what I would expect it to do filling the tanks and pumping water so a I really do mean crazy for a rather prolonged period. I'm wondering if this is what has happened. That single heat up broke it. It would explain the problem. Shipped with water in it and bounced around which could result in air locks and all sorts. The menu system also lacks what is often available on many things - reset to ex factory conditions, not the same thing as defaults.








It might just turn out to be a loan which clues me up on the machine. Heat up time is pretty quick and does get the metal work in the group head hot as well. A flush through a pressurised basket finishes that off including a hot portafilter. Thought I may as well clean the shower screen and found it uses the more usual commercial arrangement. A relatively thick plate with holes in it behind the shower screen. Plastic rather than metal. Good really because it will take up less heat. Also Fracino baskets fit the portafilter even though they are ridged. No idea what they will hold.

If this fault does exist out there then really Sage should update the machines when it happens FOC. Some companies would have a recall. It clearly comes under fit for use.

Also looked to see if there was any mention on youtube. No but some of taking them apart and past problems that need that. From those it also looks like it uses a commercial 3 way arrangement.

John

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## ajohn

I'm being told to descale the steam wand. Don't think that there are instructions for descaling just that only the entire machine which doesn't seem to include using the steam wand. Am I missing something ?

John

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## jlarkin

ajohn said:


> I'm being told to descale the steam wand. Don't think that there are instructions for descaling just that only the entire machine which doesn't seem to include using the steam wand. Am I missing something ?
> 
> John
> 
> -


I've never seen anything that would suggest the steam wand could specifically be descaled.


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## 4085

Would be useful if you could photo the error messages. Was this XS systems? Is the warranty from them or Sage? Personally, I would be tempted to send the bundle of trouble back whilst you can. There are too many electrics on board for the diy dabbler to really play with!


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## ajohn

I sent xsitems photo's of the manual. What they told me was simply what Sage said to do given the no steam problem. So I will do what was shown in the photo's - clean wand - already done and was clear and then run the descale through. That will highlight if the steam boiler is heating at all. Maybe scale could have an effect on level sensors but I have my doubts. Passivation of some form might.







Maybe I should fill it with contact cleaner.

I could cope with the electronics, very definitely in terms of boiler sensors and items like that also board level faults within limits.







I aught to able to having spent well over 20 years working in that sort of area and part time for a lot longer than that. Actually I am having a battle with myself as I'd like to get the screwdrivers out to see exactly what the problem is. I wont though.

John

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## Jony

To tell you the truth think that's it faulty from them! and now they have sent it out to someone else get it sent back and start again would be my suggestion. and above says send it back, how much was it if you don't mind me asking.

Jon


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## ajohn

Not so sure about that Jon. It could be Sage that do that and it is as they say in the listing manufacture refurbished. They do sell some as used. I did enquire about that aspect on another different machine and was told that they could only sell it as used along with a 14 day return option. The refurbished ones come with 12 months return to base. A lot of returns are sold as refurbished. Return with mail ordered items doesn't mean faulty these days. This unit didn't have the fault briefly.The first thing I checked was that steam did come out. The mystery is why it didn't very shortly after. Price wise it was £699.99.

John

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## ajohn

2 descales just on the off chance and no difference. The steam boiler isn't heating up at all but is filling ok. So looks like it's the problem I found on the web either or both of burnt out heater or the thermal fuse has popped. Maybe that's what 3 beeps means. It's easy to check to see if the boiler is hot - open the right hand tank emptying valve carefully as if ok rather hot water will be run into the drip tray. The other valve is for the brew boiler.

Sad because I would have preferred to keep it. For some reason I am not keen on spending over £1000 on a machine. If it had been £999 I would probably have bought a new one.

I tried one shot through it out of curiosity this morning. Not too good at all. In fact very poor. Suspect that is down to a cold steam boiler as I think some one mentioned that it uses that to preheat brew water.

While it was descaling I had a really good mug of monsooned via the BE so there was a compensation.







I machined the 2nd wall off a dual wall and it seems to hold about 1g more coffee.

One other aspect that I hadn't realised about these machines is that the tank can be filled with a jug via a pop up panel on the top at the front. The tank itself can be removed and filled as well. I did know that a knob under the drip tray can be used to raise the machine to make it easy to spin round but unlike the BE the tank isn't the easiest thing to handle especially when full.

The 2nd time I descaled I used a further press of the single button to fill the tanks for the final time then exited descale. On the other I noticed that the heaters seemed to be on while the tanks were filling as the brew boiler temperature was increasing.

John

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## 4085

If you bide your time and continually look around, these are often on promotion somewhere. I bought one a few weeks ago for £1050 which was price matched by Lakeland so a 3 year decent warranty. I paid £850 for one a bit longer ago but it was when they were binning the red ones, that I thought was the nicest colour. If you buy it at the ecookshop they will do 12 months interest free if that appeals

http://www.ecookshop.co.uk/ecookshop/product.asp?pid=BES920UK


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## ajohn

It's just the numbers not available cash. Interest free credit etc isn't of any interest at all. Credit is something I haven't used for a long long time.








Maybe a better way of putting it is that for part of me spending even £999 on one seems a bit obscene. Has to be silver too.

John

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## ajohn

Funny what sleep does. Today I would be highly unlikely to spend £999 on one so for me it's refurb or used. Same reason.







I'm also getting the impression that I don't like Sage as a company - or perhaps better put the parent company that sells them in the UK maybe world wide too.

John

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## 4085

I know where you are coming from John. That said, Sage UK have gone downhill at a fast rate of knots, hence the importance of warranty, especially in the first year. Having said all of that, the DB is a very clever machine with lots of bells and whistles, when it works. As they sell in large volumes, even a small % of fails or returns mean it can be a lot of machines. No one knows really, if your machine was received and sent back as the owner disliked it or if it was sent back faulty and when they 'tested' it, seems fine. Coffee Classics do the repair work for Sage....they are normaly very helpful...try to ring them. If you get peter, he was always helpful

Unit 1 & 2 The Stables

Braunston Business Park

London Road

Braunston

Northamptonshire

NN11 7HB

Phone No.: 01788890834

[email protected]


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## ajohn

I could take it there as that's not too far away. Maybe one of their engineers will be calling when Sage look at my BE.

I think that the DB is more of a used machine than a return after very little use but that's based on the look of the grouphead seal. You might say worse than my BE but I do use a grouphead cleaning brush.

The sellers sent me a link to a manual on the Lakeland site. This one mentions 20min and a 5min timer during descaling. The machine I have is as many 20min times as the user wants. That matches the manual on Sage's site. The 5min timer is the XL model

http://www.brevilleusasupport.com/bes920xl/care-and-use/care/descale-for-second-generation-software/

I think the 20min all the time is 3rd generation and is the one I'd want.

http://www.brevilleusasupport.com/bes920xl/care-and-use/care/descale-for-third-generation-software/

I'd extend those instructions personally.. Rinse out twice and then fill the boilers again and then exit descale. I smell duff software to save a min or two

I'm now awaiting what are we going to do about the problem I have with the DB. The seller and me, I am always understanding as 'it happens but wont pay return costs. The ' for 2 missing letters.

Sage - who is going to want to talk to call centre type when they have a problem. They are likely to get a stock answer. Parts - well it seems that part numbers can be obtained from people who do understand the machines but not ordered from them. No parts diagrams makes even that a touch difficult. There are other espresso machine repair people about and generally any make of machine can be repaired pretty easily. I also see an unbelievable price hike on one of Sage's machines.







It's never possible to be 100% sure of things like that but .....................

John

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## ajohn

After some thought I have decided to go for the return and repair option. They did offer a return and their engineers see if they can repair it. Before that I asked about the actual terms of the 12 month return to base warrantee.



> Thank you for your email. Please see below our warranty terms and conditions.
> 
> I can confirm that this item comes with a 1 year return to base warranty starting from the date of purchase, covering manufacturing defects. Within 30 days of the original payment date we will refund the purchase price or offer a replacement if available. After 30 days we will offer a repair. If a repair is uneconomic a replacement will be offered if available. Should neither of these options be available at time of return we will offer a refund.
> 
> Serial/IMEI numbers of any item returned to us will be checked against the original item sent to you. If the serial number/IMEI numbers do not correspond the warranty will be void.
> 
> The warranty does not cover items that are returned and found to be not faulty, nor does it cover issues caused by accident, neglect, misuse, liquid or normal wear and tear.
> 
> Please note after 6 months a reasonable reduction will be made to cover the use of the item and the return postage cost/liability will lie with the buyer and a reasonable reduction will be made to cover the use of the item.
> 
> Any warranty provided is non-transferable and does not apply to businesses.










Oddly I do hope I get it back. Some of those terms and conditions such as the exclusions might even apply to Sage's warrantee. The after 6 months aspect is a bit odd but might just be because a replacement may not be available. The serial number etc must be internal as I haven't noticed anything on the outside.

John

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## Missy

Looking at their warranty conditions (serial/IMEI) they may not actually have full knowledge of how to repair it themselves. I wonder if they will send the same one back, or just crack open another box for you (or refund) and sell this one as "C grade" or whatever.

It's just not worth the hassle with electronic stuff. I bought a refurbed vivosmart, and after a couple of weeks it went all weird. I contacted Garmin for support, incase it was a software fix, and the company (who offered a refund on return) Garmin replaced it, even though I'd bought it as a refurb, as it was a known fault...

I suspect the company bought up returned stuff, sold it cheap, and took the chance that some of it would be actually broken... I wonder how much stuff goes round and round in those return systems...


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## 4085

A guarantee is presumed that in the first 6 months the fault was present at manufacture whereas in the next 6 it has become apparent


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## ajohn

Missy has missed that with a little bit of wrangling over the meanings of the terms they could issue a partial refund. repair and sell it again. Doubtful but ............. Really personally I don't think it's too bad other than it could mean that I just get a refund. What they haven't covered is what happened to me. Steam and very shortly after no steam. After 6 months things get a bit sketchy - how much does the "6 months rent" cost. In my view very little as I am suddenly in the need of another machine. There is no Parkers guide on used espresso machines so who can say what's fair. I suspect I would not be happy with what they would offer back or maybe I would be.

John

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## 4085

What I meant to say, but only on my phone and hate typing on that, is, if this were a second hand car with no manufacturers warranty at all, then the dealer is responsible whether he likes it or not for 12 months under the sale of goods act. The first 6 months, the law will presume that the fault was present at purchase, whereas the second 6 months, you have to prove that the fault is not just wear and tear that has developed. The firm can put anything they like in the warranty terms but whether or not it is legal is another matter. A lot of Sage machines seem to fail with mysterious electrical faults. Because they are so laden with electronics, then I think you are very brave in buying a second hand machine WITHOUT a Sage warranty, regardless of what XS offer.

I speak as a Sage DB owner (actually I have had 4) who at the end of the 3 year Lakeland warranty will write the machine off it it breaks and needs much spent on it, in exactly the same way you would write off a tv out of warranty these days


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## Dumnorix

dfk41 said:


> What I meant to say, but only on my phone and hate typing on that, is, if this were a second hand car with no manufacturers warranty at all, then the dealer is responsible whether he likes it or not for 12 months under the sale of goods act. The first 6 months, the law will presume that the fault was present at purchase, whereas the second 6 months, you have to prove that the fault is not just wear and tear that has developed. The firm can put anything they like in the warranty terms but whether or not it is legal is another matter. A lot of Sage machines seem to fail with mysterious electrical faults. Because they are so laden with electronics, then I think you are very brave in buying a second hand machine WITHOUT a Sage warranty, regardless of what XS offer.
> 
> I speak as a Sage DB owner (actually I have had 4) who at the end of the 3 year Lakeland warranty will write the machine off it it breaks and needs much spent on it, in exactly the same way you would write off a tv out of warranty these days


Could I ask did all 4 die after the end of this warranty period? I am beginning to feel I may have made a mistake just getting the standard Sage 2 year warranty on my nearly 2 month old DB. I managed to get a 9 month interest free deal (I am repaying £107 per month with an initial payment of £107) as that was the only way I could actually afford the machine in the first place, so didn't really have any other options I guess. Luckily I already had a Mazzer mini grinder, purchased a few years ago when my finances were more secure!


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## Dylan

I am fairly sure dfk did not have all his DB's fail (he may correct me)

much like his TV analogy, some of them fail, most do not.

You will probably be fine, statistics are on your side.


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## 4085

Dumnorix said:


> Could I ask did all 4 die after the end of this warranty period? I am beginning to feel I may have made a mistake just getting the standard Sage 2 year warranty on my nearly 2 month old DB. I managed to get a 9 month interest free deal (I am repaying £107 per month with an initial payment of £107) as that was the only way I could actually afford the machine in the first place, so didn't really have any other options I guess. Luckily I already had a Mazzer mini grinder, purchased a few years ago when my finances were more secure!


You made me smile! None of them have failed, or the2 DTP machines I have had. They were all bought new for a reason and then sold on. The thing is, because Sage are successful nd sell a lot of machines, even with a very low fail rate it still is a lot of machines. I would not buy them if I did at least not expect them to outlast the warranty The point of the TV comparison, was just that you can buy a tv very reasonably, but you cannot fid anyone to repair them who is not going to charge £30 plus an hour....so to my way of thinking, always buy from a place that gives 5 years warranty and chuck it once it breaks after that. It may well last you a long time, but.....


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## Dumnorix

Ah, many thanks for clarifying! I agree the cost of a repair could certainly be massive, judging by some electric work I had to have done recently. I will look after it as well as I can and hope for the best....


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## ajohn

There is plenty of comments about the DB descale and also steam problems on the web. Many seem to relate to level sensing in the boiler. That's probably what caused problems on "my DB". Heat on and not enough water in the boiler. A video of an earlier model shows them using a long sensor. My Piccino uses a short one. Maybe a clever different idea from Sage or maybe a mistake. No way of knowing. Sounds strange but that is more likely to be the sensor than the electronics or miss use of the sensor by who ever designed the electronics.

There are also some about Sage. Sorry you have that problem, normal price for a repair £xxx special deal £x. Can't do that job yourself, needs an engineer. Grinder needs a new washer - owner never worked properly again. In my case we can't supply that part now as Sage wants to handle it all. Odd because the parent company will have already taken their cut when they supplied the parts.

It's also pretty clear from video's that people have bought certain parts and repaired out of warrantee problems themselves. Or maybe could at that time. All USA based though but there will be more failures in the USA - it has a market size of over 300 million fortunately for them all run under the same group of politicians.

LOL Here's a good one - could it be due to using Puly descaler?






I made an offer on a used machine. Not accepted and the buy it now price was too high as it was out of warrantee. The seller claimed to be a roaster who also repaired machines and knew there way around Sage machines and found them very reliable. Problems were usually down to maintenance. On the other hand they may be another dfk that just changes them as soon as the warrantee is up. That makes sense providing problems are down to the machine and not maintenance. Personally I want to do repairs myself also try some modifications so new doesn't make much sense for me so decided to go for what should be a half way house *if* the sellers are fair and do what they suggest they do.

John

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## ajohn

The madness continues. They have "found" me a replacement. Leaves me wondering what happens to the broken one and where they get them from. One thing I will say about the sellers is that there weren't any problems sorting this out. I think they would have just offered me a full refund if that is what I had wanted. They often sell Sage machines and to my mind offer something a touch better than the usual used by some one and just sold on.








Maybe I will regret buying it in the future. Maybe not. Time will tell. This time I am going to make sure the tanks are drained before turning it on. Also if pump sounds odd, air locks etc turn it off and try again later etc.








Could have been worse. I have been looking at things like this at times

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAGRINI-VIVA-S-Single-One-Group-Commercial-Coffee-Machine-WILL-POST/152917317787?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D43781%26meid%3D94c1494961224d8096e4c9c1e5c459db%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D112819469587%26itm%3D152917317787&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

but all seem to be HX types and dual boiler probably newer makes a lot more sense. Manual machines don't interest me so all would have electronics.

John

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## ajohn

DB2 arrived. Little different to the other one which could have been a refurbished return as it was the last one - but it did function correctly initially. All of the packaging is intact but tools and cleaning material were in the milk jug but sealed and unopened. Unused water test strip on the manual as well. The group head seal looks as new. Slight scratches on the stainless on one side down I suspect to clumsy replacement of the top of the drip tray. Odd really. I never remove mine in the machine only the entire drip tray. It has had water in it recently but as they mention they do test them.








One problem - The machine is painfully cold so feel I shouldn't turn it on yet.







Most of the stuff I have worked on is -40 to 85C but commercial stuff wont be.

John

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## ashcroc

Letting the machine get itself up to ambient temperature before turning it on certainly won't hurt it.


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## Jony

So part two starts soon.


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## ajohn

Jony said:


> So part two starts soon.


LOL Yes hope it goes well compared with part 1.

John

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## Leigh

Hi John,

I'm a water production engineer and its very difficult for them to give a precise hardness of your water as they abstract from different sources at differing times of year (dependant on your location) but a ball part is all that you'll need it's just so it reminds you more frequently to descale, 5 being the hardest water!

Cheers

Leigh


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## ajohn

I'm in B'ham so should be the Elan valley which is very soft. However I seem to remember Seven Trent taking some from the River Severn at times but that was long ago when B'ham industrial use of water would be a lot higher than it's likely to be now. However some Welsh people pointed out that Manchester also gets it after I pointed out a bit of a problem when "they" hike water prices to get some income after going independent.







I mentioned that B'ham paid for what's at their end.







I've always wondered ever since how many others of "them" feel like that. Very few I think. Us - well we would want our money back - inflated of course.

A kettle can show slight signs of scale in places here but that takes a couple of years. I descale the BE about every 3 months using Sage descaler but am thinking of mixing my own up from their recipe. Puly don't state what is in theirs and on something like a BE sulphamic acid could be important. Puly back flush tablets are probably identical to Sage but the 2.5g ones are larger. I think tablets are needed to block the hole in the rubber disk at the start of the process.

John

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## ajohn

No wild action from the pumps. They just pumped water this time. I had checked that the tanks were drained. Then left it for a while switched off and powered up again. The brew boiler had dropped to 60C, tried steam immediately and 3 beeps. Shortly after that it did produce steam.







That's twice now - the other one only did it on the first power up. I can also hear the steam boiler boiling - no signs of that on the other. They do heat the brew boiler before the pumps stop and I suspect that's what did the other one in - if they do it on brew they probably do on steam so if for some reason the water goes in more slowly than expected it might overheat.








So now the chores so that I know where I am with it. Backflush, clean shower filter and then descale. But first I'll set it to defaults as I did on the first power up of the other one.

John

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## Leigh

We can also back feed from Meriden too! But yes the EVA is the main source indeed, Frankley works produces from that source which pretty much supplies Birmingham, if the works shuts down customers would have dry taps within 20 mins! It's pumping out 350 mega litres a day that's a lot of water

Not sure what your saying about Manchester?

We have the cheapest water and waste water bills in the uk, if the water industry became renationalised our bills would increase, since privatisation the industry has invested twice what was previously invested 25 years leading up to that point.

Leigh


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## ajohn

Leigh said:


> We can also back feed from Meriden too! But yes the EVA is the main source indeed, Frankley works produces from that source which pretty much supplies Birmingham, if the works shuts down customers would have dry taps within 20 mins! It's pumping out 350 mega litres a day that's a lot of water ?
> 
> Not sure what your saying about Manchester?
> 
> We have the cheapest water and waste water bills in the uk, if the water industry became renationalised our bills would increase, since privatisation the industry has invested twice what was previously invested 25 years leading up to that point.
> 
> Leigh


3 Welsh people seemed think that Manchester also obtained water from the Elan Valley. I assumed as their population grew they just took some from there.

John

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## ajohn

The descale went ok and







It still all works.

I just pulled my first shot with it. I wont be pulling my morning monsooned with it. I used 11g, ground as per the BE. On that the brew pressure it gives is just short of 15 bar. Ok taste wise on the DB but too weak and oddly a touch sweet initially. Water output is hotter than the BE though so difficult to taste until it had cooled. Being a good boy I checked that 11g was ok with the razor tool. It would have taken a small fraction of a gram off but I left it as is. Puck stuck to the shower screen so a bit short on grinds. 30 sec gave 27g out. On the BE unless I wanted to hammer it I'd be using 10.4.

John

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## 4085

your bar pressure is way too high. try knocking it down to about 6 and then taste the results!


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## 4085

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?34666-Sage-DB-is-this-acceptable&highlight=sage

read page 2 and on to 3 for how to do it


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## ajohn

Thanks. I will try that. It's an interesting area. Not being gender specific Gaggia Classic person adjusts the machine for 9bar. Sage DB person arranges it to be 6 bar or some other figure. Sage BE person will probably end up doing what I do - get used to brewing at 15 bar or there abouts. I failed to find out what Sage DTP person does, no gauge.

I pulled another shot. 12g this time having set pump power to min and infusion to 10 sec. I used the double button intending to terminate manually on flow but it terminated at 30 sec, So made sure it was set on seconds and set the single to 30 and double to 50. Puck still stuck to the shower screen. New one on me, looks to be down to overfilling. Shot was better but still weak. When some one mentioned that the DB single held 12g I had my doubts even though I didn't have the machine. I'd guess it's 10g tops really, probably a touch less. Having even a gram extra in the BE single can reduces strength. It seems to depend on grind as well - more true on finer grinds. That opens the BE's OPV and far more water goes into the drip tray. The DB looks to route it back to the tank.

I'll try one more like this but with more pump power and then try using infusion to limit the pressure. The infusion was so slow as it was it probably messes up heating the grounds.








My taste in monsooned via a BE is disgusting, I should look like this









I sometime press the shot button again after running a shot - water comes out and at times I use it to top up. Little other than water comes out at the end of the shot anyway. Rather a lot of water goes into the drip tray. If I can get there with a DB it wont.

John

-


----------



## Greydad

Interesting about lowering the pressure, mine does seem to achieve 9bar ok and (now after some practice) reasonably consistently. I once did something wrong (seemed to be a combination of too fine a grind and over-enthusiastic tamping) and it hit over 10 bar and hardly anything came out, hopeless. I've gone the other way with coarser grind and lighter tamping and reached only about 5-6 bar and it tasted fine (to my uneducated palette at least). Hadn't thought about going in and tinkering with the pressure in the menus but may give that a go, per the other thread (thanks!)


----------



## ajohn

Greydad said:


> Interesting about lowering the pressure, mine does seem to achieve 9bar ok and (now after some practice) reasonably consistently. I once did something wrong (seemed to be a combination of too fine a grind and over-enthusiastic tamping) and it hit over 10 bar and hardly anything came out, hopeless. I've gone the other way with coarser grind and lighter tamping and reached only about 5-6 bar and it tasted fine (to my uneducated palette at least). Hadn't thought about going in and tinkering with the pressure in the menus but may give that a go, per the other thread (thanks!)


The link DFKetc posted explains what many do. As I read it infusion times is set longer than shot time and then pump pressure and grind set to achieve the required pressure. That it seems from a another comment can result in a finer grind than might be used in it's "normal" mode - so much pre infusion followed by either the opv or the grind limiting the pressure. The usual way as I understand it is for the opv to set the final pressure. Grind too fine and the machine chokes and nothing comes out or a tiny dribble. I've seen comments suggesting that commercial machines have their OPV set at 8 bar. These use rotary pumps. The argument for higher on vibratory pumps is that the pressure builds more slowly so they should have it set at 9. Doh - then comes a machine with pre infusion that ramps the pressure up slowly anyway.

One thing for sure there is rather a lot to play around with on a DB.

John

-


----------



## 4085

First time after I did that mod, was to suddenly find fruit in beans I had never ever tasted fruit in before. Have a play but it does need a slightly finer grind


----------



## Greydad

Presumably I could drop the pressure, tweak the grind and tamp but simulate the extended pre-infusion time by press-and-hold of the Manual button? I understand this keeps it in pre-infusion until you release so a chance to play before changing the actual machine settings?


----------



## 4085

@ajohn

Grinders, I have had a few! i first had a Sage when they were very first released, even before the DB was big. I ran a dozen back to back grinds and it passed out! Sage told me it was not designed for that and I accepted that. I am one of those, that thinks if you have a £500 espresso machine, you ought to have at least the same as a grinder. I simply do not understand why Sage produce such a good machine in the DB then pair it to a pile of shite like their grinder. I say that because if you compare it to a quality grinder, then it is just that. An espresso machine is just an oven. Put quality ingredients in and get quality coffee out. Put shite in get shite out! A £200 cannot be anything other than lower end.

I am not speaking as a snob. I am speaking as someone who has had virtually every top end grinder and can therefore appreciate the goods they bring to the table. The Sage grinder is a handicap to the Sage DB.....the trouble is 94% of owners would not have the foggiest as to what I am talking about, as they put their pre ground supermarket coffee into the pf basket.


----------



## ajohn

Greydad said:


> Just made a morning brew for Wifey and re-weighed more accurately - 23g - so I've dialled back the grind time and made it grind slightly coarser in my much-maligned Smart Grinder Pro and will refine from there. Must admit it tasted lovely today - manual 25sec pre-infusion, 20sec infusion and max
> 
> You might like to try weighing the beans in and then checking what comes out. I'm managing often the same or to +/- 0.1g. I'm assuming you have ground a fair few beans with it because it does need to compact some grinds in the chamber before it will work well. Don't worry about those. They have a good reason for doing it. The set up I'm using at the moment looks like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I mentioned change setting and the output will change but usually comes back within one shot. Changing beans varies - might alter the output or might not.
> 
> The can is the grinds chamber off a cheapish hand grinder - the Hunt's one which is unbelievably similar to another which costs a lot more. Having the grinds fall that far compacts them a touch. Stick the portafilter on top and then invert and tap the portafilter to settle the grinds before removing the can. Helps get round the huge heap of grinds that these manage to put out. Actually that aspect isn't so much of a problem on their 58mm baskets. Grinds tend to go all over the place on the smaller baskets used in a BE. The BE needs a dosing funnel really.
> 
> I weigh the beans and then tare the can to check the output. However once settings have bean established I have also pulled a lot of shots without checking the output - I would detect small changes one way or the other but do weigh as beans used may have an effect.
> 
> There may be some mileage in what some say about these grinders. That's fines - grinds that are finer than the setting should produce or even some coarser ones. These will change taste. On the other hand they don't tend to produce well compacted clumps even with very oily beans but that could just be down to the grinds falling off a cliff when they come out of the chamber. I don't think so though.
> 
> Personally I think you should pull shots against the OPV (over pressure valve) which will probably be peak pressures of 9 to 10 bar. I'd also suggest 10 secs preinfusion and 66% pump power and maybe play with the pump power. Those figure appear to put things were the BE and DTP are and people do produce decent drinks with those.. Or reset the machine and use Sage defaults.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They will have their reasons for setting them so shouldn't be too bad.
> 
> On the grinder setting start where the manual suggests. Some people might suggest starting at the finest setting. Going on my SGP I suspect that might choke the grinder up as the burrs are just about rubbing. If it chokes you will have to dismantle and clean it out so in my view not worth the risk. The setting they suggest may be too coarse so go finer until the OPV shows signs of opening. The needle wont go any higher even if you grind finer still. If it reaches that level at their suggested setting you can adjust either way. Then conventional wisdom states that you should look at ratio's, weight of grinds in to weight of shot out. It can be argued that this could be anywhere between 1 to 2 up to 1 to 5. The 1 to 2 probably wouldn't be suitable for a straight espresso unless they were very weak beans. I usually find around 1 to 3 can be about right but don't worry much about that and just adjust for a taste that I like that hopefully matches the tasting notes for the bean. Shot time is often reckoned to be 30 secs but in real terms there is no harm in adjusting that as well. I've always used something in that general area.
> 
> As you adjust finer remember to have the grinder running if you have beans in the hopper. The burrs will be empty if you are weighing beans in.
> 
> It can take a while to get a drink that some one likes repeatablely used as above on any machine. Personally I suspect it would be best to get this aspect right before exploring other things that can be changed otherwise there are just too many variables. There are more than enough already.
> 
> My SGP was a refurb - in other words used by some one and probably returned. I tried it on it's min setting before putting any beans in it. The burrs rubbed so heavily that it slowed the motor down and then even more as the burrs expanded due to heat. Fortunately I was using manual grind so could stop it by taking my fingure off the button. Otherwise I would have had to unplug it. I adjusted the outer burr one step coarser and then the motor just slowed a touch on min setting but I only ran it like that for 10 secs or so. I setting coarser and the motor ran at more or less max speed when there are no beans in to grind. My BE came with the grinder like that but has broken some how - adjuster not working correctly any more.
> 
> John
> 
> -


----------



## Greydad

Thanks. As I've read more about actually making espresso rather than about the machinery needed to do it I'm becoming a bit more nerdy about the whole thing and paying more attention to the details - these forums have been great for that, thank you. So I can now say that for the beans I'm using just now (a Columbian Huila based blend from Beanshot in Somerset) I have been making doubles grinding 23g beans in and getting 64g espresso out, so about 1:2.8 (within my current measurement accuracy anyway, which is ± 0.5g). I've been manually extracting over about 35secs or so and this gave a cracking cup this morning, so i'm going to fine tune from here.

I grind directly into the portafilter which I weigh before and after, using the tare function on the scales. I prefer to jiggle the portafilter during the grind to settle the heap a bit and then I only need some gentle up and down taps onto the tamping mat once out of the grinder to get the whole pile reasonably level and ready to tamp. Seem to get a better taste with the grind a bit coarser, haven't been less than 12 on the SGP and most often seem to end up around 15-16 which is nearly back to the Sage default, so there you go!







Next one I make I've reduced the grind time to try and hit 19-20g which I think should be perfect.


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## Missy

If it's making a cracking shot why fine tune?


----------



## Greydad

Missy said:


> If it's making a cracking shot why fine tune?


'cos I'm a bloke and I have to fiddle









Just got it down to 20g just now and it wasn't as good as the first one this morning, slightly coarser grind too, so I'm going to go back to where I was









Aren't you proud of me though? I can taste the difference now at least! I'm learning!


----------



## Missy

Greydad said:


> 'cos I'm a bloke and I have to fiddle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just got it down to 20g just now and it wasn't as good as the first one this morning, slightly coarser grind too, so I'm going to go back to where I was
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't you proud of me though? I can taste the difference now at least! I'm learning!


And the trying stuff out is half the fun.

To put less coffee in you'll need to grind finer so the water works it's way through at the same speed.

Change one variable at a time.


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## Greydad

Yes good plan I realise I've been trying to adjust grind time as well as size and that's wrong (I should understand this cos I'm a bloke and we can only cope with one thing at a time) so I'll put the grind size back to where it was which I think was ok and adjust the time only to get the quantity


----------



## ajohn

dfk41 said:


> @ajohn
> 
> Grinders, I have had a few! i first had a Sage when they were very first released, even before the DB was big. I ran a dozen back to back grinds and it passed out! Sage told me it was not designed for that and I accepted that. I am one of those, that thinks if you have a £500 espresso machine, you ought to have at least the same as a grinder. I simply do not understand why Sage produce such a good machine in the DB then pair it to a pile of shite like their grinder. I say that because if you compare it to a quality grinder, then it is just that. An espresso machine is just an oven. Put quality ingredients in and get quality coffee out. Put shite in get shite out! A £200 cannot be anything other than lower end.
> 
> I am not speaking as a snob. I am speaking as someone who has had virtually every top end grinder and can therefore appreciate the goods they bring to the table. The Sage grinder is a handicap to the Sage DB.....the trouble is 94% of owners would not have the foggiest as to what I am talking about, as they put their pre ground supermarket coffee into the pf basket.


They have updated the grinders at least twice. Different part to get the grinds out and adjustable outer burr to allow the range of settings to be adjusted. Who knows how many other things they might have changed. The DB has had updates as well.

Their products are more mass market than commercial products so lower margins and more sales are needed. It's a different world to the likes of Mazzer and others.

If they did make a "commercial" grinder there would be other penalties as well such as grinds retention that needs a lens hood adding if people want to get them out or a rather radical change in appearance and or what's inside them. The companies that do make commercial grinders don't seem to have much interest in doing that. Oh forgot - one tilts the burrs at 45 degrees and reckons that is wonderful.

If they did make one a company of that size would want to see enough work to justify the use of a rather expensive cnc machining centre. Very probably more than one actually. To avoid that they make lots of use of plastics. That means that the expensive aspect of making the parts only crops up if a mould wears out. Believe it or not moulds do wear out.

Price wise the result is unlikely to be much better than existing commercial grinders if they did make one. Also what should they make - 100mm burrs to remain ahead along with a 1hp motor? Flat or conical? Big or small? and etc. If it costed say £1000 retail do you think the likes of Curries would want to stock it unless lots were sold. That aspect would probably push the price up to £1500. Actual more dedicated coffee item retailers may not want to stock their current grinders because the margins are too small.

We'll probably see a Touch DB at some point. Expect a price hike as there has been on the Barista Touch even though the machine is probably cheaper to make. That's another aspect of their type of market.

John

-


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## Missy

So in summary @ajohn what you are saying is yes they are inferior, but it's not worth their while making something to compete with commercial grinders.

Yep.

As for touch models being cheaper to make... Cheaper how? There's a software cost there. It's not free to build even relatively simple software.


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## 4085

ajohn said:


> They have updated the grinders at least twice. Different part to get the grinds out and adjustable outer burr to allow the range of settings to be adjusted. Who knows how many other things they might have changed. The DB has had updates as well.
> 
> Their products are more mass market than commercial products so lower margins and more sales are needed. It's a different world to the likes of Mazzer and others.
> 
> If they did make a "commercial" grinder there would be other penalties as well such as grinds retention that needs a lens hood adding if people want to get them out or a rather radical change in appearance and or what's inside them. The companies that do make commercial grinders don't seem to have much interest in doing that. Oh forgot - one tilts the burrs at 45 degrees and reckons that is wonderful.
> 
> If they did make one a company of that size would want to see enough work to justify the use of a rather expensive cnc machining centre. Very probably more than one actually. To avoid that they make lots of use of plastics. That means that the expensive aspect of making the parts only crops up if a mould wears out. Believe it or not moulds do wear out.
> 
> Price wise the result is unlikely to be much better than existing commercial grinders if they did make one. Also what should they make - 100mm burrs to remain ahead along with a 1hp motor? Flat or conical? Big or small? and etc. If it costed say £1000 retail do you think the likes of Curries would want to stock it unless lots were sold. That aspect would probably push the price up to £1500. Actual more dedicated coffee item retailers may not want to stock their current grinders because the margins are too small.
> 
> We'll probably see a Touch DB at some point. Expect a price hike as there has been on the Barista Touch even though the machine is probably cheaper to make. That's another aspect of their type of market.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Afraid I do not agree with any of your diatribe! They make em cheap, because they are bought on the whole, by idiots out shopping with their Mrs who buy a Sage coffee machine and you know how powerful the argument is when the demonstrator tells you to pair it with a matching grinder, especially when it represents such good value. Use of plastics, the Vario did that and they were grade one shite as well. I am not sure where you get your marketing insight into Sages products from so I await to be corrected!

The Sage grinder has lots of clever ideas but at the price point it is not a hidden gem. It does exactly what you would expect it to do, which is not much......ok, I am comparing it to grinders of a different class but this is a coffee forum where there is a wide range of kit amongst the members. The idea that a £199 grinder can offer anything in real terms i quaint! I am sure it gives hours of tinkering and playing around and fun, but eventually you will realise that to make a better cuppa you need a better grinder.

I have had 3 Sage grinders and 3 DB machines. I bought my last DB quite recently as in weeks ago so hopefully it is the latest model. The last grinder was from Xmas 16 and at that point, whatever mods they had done did nothing for me anyway.

It is fun playing around but I stand by my earlier statement that the biggest handicap to the DB is the Sage grinder. Quite how they can make such an excellent coffee machine and fail totally with the grinder takes some believing.

I do not know if you drink double shots. Admire you for your persistence with pulling singles. Personally, I just chuck single baskets away as I can see no benefit to them, but maybe thats just me. The Sage double basket will take 27 grams and still leave headroom for water so dont see what the single basket seems susceptible to very small dose variants.

Anyway, onwards and upwards


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## Greydad

dfk41 said:


> They make em cheap, because they are bought on the whole, by idiots out shopping with their Mrs who buy a Sage coffee machine...


well that puts me in my place at least I know where I am in the pecking order lol


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## ajohn

Greydad said:


> Yes good plan I realise I've been trying to adjust grind time as well as size and that's wrong (I should understand this cos I'm a bloke and we can only cope with one thing at a time) so I'll put the grind size back to where it was which I think was ok and adjust the time only to get the quantity


You'll find that for the same time setting the output will change. More if going coarser and less if finer. You may find that the output changes over time even when you have found your settings. The timer needs adjusting again if that happens. Depends how big the change is and how it effects your shots. I'd suggest you check the weight now and again anyway. Best to find any drift before it alters taste. A number of people weigh beans in to various grinders to get round that aspect but many probably don't have a grinder timer.

John

-


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## 4085

Greydad said:


> well that puts me in my place at least I know where I am in the pecking order lol


I was not having a pop! Sage on the whole sell their products through retail outlets, not coffee specialists. This is because their target market is not the enthusiast such as those that frequent these places, but, the high street idiot. The fact that in the hands of an enthusiast, the DB anyway can keep up with the best, is a fact that cannot be ignored.


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## Greydad

KTD said:


> I rate the sage pro grinder for its price, owned a few different low end grinders and performance wise I think it matched the mignon even if build quality means it would never last as long. To match a high end machine? Probably not. But as a second grinder or a stop gap it's ideal. I'm really surprised you are using at 15-16 setting, Im not sure I've ever used mine higher than 10 for espresso and probably range from 4-8. Unless I've missed something on the thread


that setting did prove to be too coarse in fact - I'm still experimenting - but so far haven't had it set to single figures. For that particular bean somewhere around 12 seemed to give the best results. @ajohn made the point that settings may not compare between machines exactly and that may be true but nonetheless I've not tried really fine settings yet, maybe that's something for a snowy weekend


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## ashcroc

dfk41 said:


> I was not having a pop! Sage on the whole sell their products through retail outlets, not coffee specialists. This is because their target market is not the enthusiast such as those that frequent these places, but, the high street idiot. The fact that in the hands of an enthusiast, the DB anyway can keep up with the best, is a fact that cannot be ignored.


It really is a pity sage haven't seen fit to offer a grinder comparrable to the DB. I'm sure they'd sell bucketloads if they did.


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## Greydad

dfk41 said:


> I was not having a pop! Sage on the whole sell their products through retail outlets, not coffee specialists. This is because their target market is not the enthusiast such as those that frequent these places, but, the high street idiot. The fact that in the hands of an enthusiast, the DB anyway can keep up with the best, is a fact that cannot be ignored.


pop away anyway I don't care it's only the internet







I think you will find though that in general few casual high street buyers would consider £199 cheap for a coffee grinder most will max out in the £50-99 range tops and consider anything in 3 figures bonkers let alone £500-1000 or more, that's the domain of commercial places. Besides I got ours for £159 from JL so I have zero complaints as it gives me plenty to play with until I learn what I really want from a grinder


----------



## 4085

Greydad said:


> pop away anyway I don't care it's only the internet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you will find though that in general few casual high street buyers would consider £199 cheap for a coffee grinder most will max out in the £50-99 range tops and consider anything in 3 figures bonkers let alone £500-1000 or more, that's the domain of commercial places. Besides I got ours for £159 from JL so I have zero complaints as it gives me plenty to play with until I learn what I really want from a grinder


If you are in JL and buy a DB, DTP or the like the chances are you will buy the matching Sage grinder.....thats a fact. Also, by the time you know you need a new grinder, you will do the right thing, but, there is a big limit as to what you can produce on your DB using a Sage grinder. Perhaps a forum member nearby could bring a better grinder round or if they have a DB invite you round. Am not going to bang on and on but coffee is about taste. If you cannot tell the difference between a shot produced on a Sage grinder and one produced on a better quality one, then stick with the Sage!!


----------



## ajohn

Greydad said:


> well that puts me in my place at least I know where I am in the pecking order lol










Yeh me too and a fair few others.

John

-


----------



## Jony

A little truth never hurt,haha but I would take is info as real


----------



## ashcroc

Jony said:


> A little truth never hurt,haha but I would take is info as real


Me too though I'm also happy living in ignorance as I haven't the space for a better grinder than my mignon.


----------



## Jony

ooh you poor man,haha


----------



## Greydad

dfk41 said:


> ...coffee is about taste. If you cannot tell the difference between a shot produced on a Sage grinder and one produced on a better quality one, then stick with the Sage!!


Actually at this stage I probably can't given I only started drinking coffee about 3 weeks ago. The SGP is really not the limiting factor in my espresso making. It's what I have given my budget and I need to get the best out of it and understand it's limitations. Telling me it's useless doesn't help me. Buying a £2000+ EK43 won't help me either. Having someone else do the grind for me on their posh grinder defeats the object.

You learn to drive in a Corsa or a Fabia, not a Lamborghini Countach, but that doesn't stop you talking to and learning from the Lambo drivers and aspiring to own one one day


----------



## 4085

@Greydad

You have the right approach matey. A lot of this was aimed at ajohn rather than you, as he seems to be a more experienced user. At the end of the day, sit and play and you will know if an upgrade is appropriate. All I was trying to say, and have said, is that the DB is capable of being paired with something further up the food chain. My first kit was a Gaggia Classic paired with a Starbucks burr grinder, and that has done me no harm!


----------



## ashcroc

Greydad said:


> Actually at this stage I probably can't given I only started drinking coffee about 3 weeks ago. The SGP is really not the limiting factor in my espresso making. It's what I have given my budget and I need to get the best out of it and understand it's limitations. Telling me it's useless doesn't help me. Buying a £2000+ EK43 won't help me either. Having someone else do the grind for me on their posh grinder defeats the object.
> 
> You learn to drive in a Corsa or a Fabia, not a Lamborghini Countach, but that doesn't stop you talking to and learning from the Lambo drivers and aspiring to own one one day


Yep, get what you can from the SGP until you feel you've progressed as far as you can with it & need to upgrade. If you'd got a DTP people wouldn't have batted an eyelid at the pairing but you managed a steal on the DB & have already mentioned you'll be upgrading the grinder first.

The SGP is what it is at a price that can only really be bettered with a 2nd hand ex-commercial if you're lucky enough to bag a cheap one in good condition.


----------



## ashcroc

dfk41 said:


> @Greydad
> 
> You have the right approach matey. A lot of this was aimed at ajohn rather than you, as he seems to be a more experienced user. At the end of the day, sit and play and you will know if an upgrade is appropriate. All I was trying to say, and have said, is that the DB is capable of being paired with something further up the food chain. My first kit was a Gaggia Classic paired with a Starbucks burr grinder, and that has done me no harm!


I can still remember when my parents got a mellitta cone to go ontop of the coffee pot. Until then it was pour carefully & strain the grounds through your teeth!


----------



## ajohn

Missy said:


> So in summary @ajohn what you are saying is yes they are inferior, but it's not worth their while making something to compete with commercial grinders.
> 
> Yep.
> 
> As for touch models being cheaper to make... Cheaper how? There's a software cost there. It's not free to build even relatively simple software.


Actually I have written rather a lot of firmware so do know something about that and product pricing and developing "things" too. I also worked in the developing area. Actually that explains why I go about getting to use an espresso machine as I do.

Most firmware has been in ABS controllers. A little different to a touch screen - no one can tell you how to do it so a lot of the work involves finding out. These days many companies would take touch screen software from open source and modify it. A lot of the work has been done that way. Having seen video's of Sage BE's and DB's with the lid etc off I was rather surprised how they were built. Rather a lot of wires that need connecting up. Labour rates always increase where ever they are made and still cost money anyway. PCB's and IDC connectors etc and ribbon cable is more reliable and cheaper in the long run. Some of the wiring will need to be done the hard way but not the control panel. Less buttons, no pressure gauge. Some high end stuff might include 1 knob to alter parameters selected via a touch screen. Very convenient and still cheap. Just like any company they will want to recover development costs as quickly as possible what ever their actual production cost is. Where they will have spent significant money is tooling changes and probably changes to the water heating bits and pieces and software that does that. No one can tell them how to do that so changes and prototypes are likely to be needed. Maybe they managed to model it or get some one else to do that for them - that sort of thing can work out pretty expensive how ever it's done. Maybe they don't have in house software skills - that would increase software costs.

I'm not saying it is inferior. I would say that it's unlikely to last as long as a decent commercial grinder. It isn't intended to. The debate really is does a commercial grinder produce a better drink? Does it suddenly change fill levels in a basket that mean 18 rather than 25g. Will the pucks this grinder produces be miraculously drier just because it uses flat burrs?

People change from them for all sorts of reasons. As for instance motor noise varying as beans are ground - well brushed motors do that when the load changes. Electronics can change that and maybe Sage will some day but on the other hand does it matter? Another person changed and also feels that they didn't spend enough time with it really.

My decision is to buy one of said commercial grinders and find out for myself. If I find that it makes little or no difference I will say so and probably be told I should have bought another model. On the other hand if it does make a difference I will say that a Sage grinder is not a bad start but you may wish to get a commercial grinder later. I'm treating the whole area as if some one dumped a machine and a big bag of beans on my desk at work and pulled a face and said we need to do something with that. Often they would pull a face because they would ideally like to leave it alone or not have what ever problem it has.

John

-


----------



## Mrboots2u

I don't get some of the points you are trying to make. You are equating a better grinder with basket fill and drier pucks, these are not how you judge the worth or quality of a grinder.

Businesses don't buy grinders to make dry pucks , they buy them to make tasty drinks.


----------



## ashcroc

ajohn said:


> Actually I have written rather a lot of firmware so do know something about that and product pricing and developing "things" too. I also worked in the developing area. Actually that explains why I go about getting to use an espresso machine as I do.
> 
> Most firmware has been in ABS controllers. A little different to a touch screen - no one can tell you how to do it so a lot of the work involves finding out. These days many companies would take touch screen software from open source and modify it. A lot of the work has been done that way. Having seen video's of Sage BE's and DB's with the lid etc off I was rather surprised how they were built. Rather a lot of wires that need connecting up. Labour rates always increase where ever they are made and still cost money anyway. PCB's and IDC connectors etc and ribbon cable is more reliable and cheaper in the long run. Some of the wiring will need to be done the hard way but not the control panel. Less buttons, no pressure gauge. Some high end stuff might include 1 knob to alter parameters selected via a touch screen. Very convenient and still cheap. Just like any company they will want to recover development costs as quickly as possible what ever their actual production cost is. Where they will have spent significant money is tooling changes and probably changes to the water heating bits and pieces and software that does that. No one can tell them how to do that so changes and prototypes are likely to be needed. Maybe they managed to model it or get some one else to do that for them - that sort of thing can work out pretty expensive how ever it's done. Maybe they don't have in house software skills - that would increase software costs.
> 
> I'm not saying it is inferior. I would say that it's unlikely to last as long as a decent commercial grinder. It isn't intended to. The debate really is does a commercial grinder produce a better drink? Does it suddenly change fill levels in a basket that mean 18 rather than 25g. Will the pucks this grinder produces be miraculously drier just because it uses flat burrs?
> 
> People change from them for all sorts of reasons. As for instance motor noise varying as beans are ground - well brushed motors do that when the load changes. Electronics can change that and maybe Sage will some day but on the other hand does it matter? Another person changed and also feels that they didn't spend enough time with it really.
> 
> My decision is to buy one of said commercial grinders and find out for myself. If I find that it makes little or no difference I will say so and probably be told I should have bought another model. On the other hand if it does make a difference I will say that a Sage grinder is not a bad start but you may wish to get a commercial grinder later. I'm treating the whole area as if some one dumped a machine and a big bag of beans on my desk at work and pulled a face and said we need to do something with that. Often they would pull a face because they would ideally like to leave it alone or not have what ever problem it has.
> 
> John
> 
> -


I see no debate in whether a commercial grinder will produce a better drink as it has been proven over & over again that it does. You may as well argue that water isn't wet.


----------



## 4085

ajohn said:


> Enough on grinders. I've yet to see a pro barista cleaning up a messing puck when they produce a drink. if that is some people bag that's fine by me. It's not mine and never ever will be.
> 
> Looks like I have this single basket completely wrong thanks to under filling and that causing grinds to swill all over the place. Evening shot and 12.5g of monsooned. Flat topped puck and it dropped out directly into the box without any knocking so not far off.
> 
> LOL I'm likely to fit it with an IMS competition shower screen soon - bound to improve my drinks tremendously. Actually I do suspect it will smooth out and spread the water distribution a bit otherwise I wouldn't be doing it.
> 
> John
> 
> -


when are you going to graduate to joined up writing and try a mans double basket! and if your taste buds can tell a shot made with an IMS screen, hats off to you!


----------



## urbanbumpkin

If it works for you then great. But pro baristas don't aim to make dry pucks, their aim is to make tasty coffee.

There's a lot of good advice on here. It's worth experimenting with different approaches. I've been proved wrong about lots of my preconceptions. We've been trying with DFK for years .....I've just heard him say he's tasted fruit flavours!!!!


----------



## Missy

ajohn said:


> Why don't you learn to use the single ? 7.5g of monsooned you mentioned in a double or the single that comes with the db. I'd love to see a photo of the puck.
> 
> It's pretty clear that we should all use a Mythos and in many cases remove a kitchen wall cupboard to gain clearance
> 
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-grinders/eureka-mythos-grinder-2916.html
> 
> They also seems to be available on lease purchase.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Sigh. Missing the point again.


----------



## Mrboots2u

ajohn said:


> Why don't you learn to use the single ? 7.5g of monsooned you mentioned in a double or the single that comes with the db. I'd love to see a photo of the puck.
> 
> It's pretty clear that we should all use a Mythos and in many cases remove a kitchen wall cupboard to gain clearance
> 
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-grinders/eureka-mythos-grinder-2916.html
> 
> They also seems to be available on lease purchase.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Genuine question are you making coffee or pucks, you seem overly concerned with the puck making capability of grinders. If you wanted a clean kitchen then espresso is not the hobby for you









If you want to stop having messy dark wet pucks , stop using MM or really dark coffee.


----------



## Greydad

My DB only came with a double so that's all I've used so far. Initially I was running this into two cups but Wifey complained that it just wasn't enough coffee so now it's a double each every time. Can't see we'd have a need to contemplate a single now given this ongoing high-wife-demand use-case scenario







Neatly sidesteps the issue of difficulty using singles too...


----------



## ajohn

Missy said:


> You should be able to get the same taste from 9.3g of the same bean on any machine, more or less (and given dark roast more easily imo than a light roast)
> 
> It's why we talk about ratios (weight in/out) because then you can adjust for the various proclivities of each machine. Preinfusion and profiling (changing the pressure during a shot) would make a difference, but a
> 
> Grinders would make a difference in a much greater degree.
> 
> If you are happy with your BE and your single basket why change? If it tastes good hurrah.


I'm fed up with emptying the drip tray, spent some time tuning to avoid that and it didn't work out on monsooned. Not really a problem the sink isn't far away but I also fancied a change and an opportunity cropped up that in my terms allowed me to change machine. If I like it and it does what I want I may even sell it and buy a new one. I'll also enjoy trying to get the same taste out of it. I might even decide my Piccino is a better option.

John

-


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Maybe one of the Mods can split this off into a separate thread.


----------



## 4085

@Greydad

you are grinding too fine! The preinfusion should be for a set amount of time and if it varies it is telling you your grind is wrong. On DB, it lasts 8 to 10 seconds. if the pour starts before the it is too coarse, after that, too fine.

I would decide on an amount of coffee, say 20 gms for argument. Always grind that amount. Forget the timer, grind and weigh. You might need to add to it or take away. then tamp and pour your shot, aiming for lets says double the dry weight in 30 seconds. And you need to weigh out or you are pissing in the wind wearing dark glasses and boxing gloves....

Weigh in, weigh out.....if you are not getting approximately 40 gms using the above in 30 seconds, report back for the next instalment!


----------



## Greydad

urbanbumpkin said:


> Maybe one of the Mods can split this off into a separate thread.


I'm happy to chop this out and start a separate thread somewhere, but where? In the Sage forum? Or the Noobs forum? Or Beans??


----------



## ashcroc

Greydad said:


> I'm happy to chop this out and start a separate thread somewhere, but where? In the Sage forum? Or the Noobs forum? Or Beans??


You're more likely to get sage specific advice in the sage forum but it would be equally at home in several places.


----------



## 4085

I do not see the need for any individual forums really. I am probably in a minority but I set the one page to forum, then click new posts. If I am looking for something specific then I use advanced search.....


----------



## 4085

I understand the need to play......keep your weight constant then that is one thing less to worry about. Forget manual preinfusion, it is not going to help you in anyway learn how to pull a basic good shot.....keep wight constant and adjust the grind to get the output in 30 seconds on the double button


----------



## Greydad

urbanbumpkin said:


> What basket are you dosing 23g into?


What @dfk41 said - bog-standard Sage DB single wall double filter basket. It's the only basket I have as a consequence of picking up an ex-display model for a song.

I was initially grinding and tamping using the Sage top-of-the-tamper rule of thumb. When I started weighing in and out that's when I found out this results in around 23g, which is good news for purveyors of expensive coffee beans


----------



## Greydad

dfk41 said:


> I understand the need to play......keep your weight constant then that is one thing less to worry about. Forget manual preinfusion, it is not going to help you in anyway learn how to pull a basic good shot.....keep wight constant and adjust the grind to get the output in 30 seconds on the double button


Righto #profoundandinsightful100thpost


----------



## ajohn

Some one seemed to want a video on "reading" pucks. Not possible. I had an easy start. The socket in the screw that holds the shower screen in place. I found that if the puck showed a certain amount of that and I weighed it was always 9.3g. So started using that to adjust the grind timer as needed when it drifted. On my oily bean having been "run in" from clean the total adjustment at the end would be getting on for 1/4 turn of the knob. At that point it didn't need resetting very often. Always tiny tweaks anyway. To low if a problem is easy - the puck will be a bit wrinkled on all machines I have used - then comes the question of how hard to allow it to press on the shower screen. That seems to depend on grind. Coarser = firmer. To firm and taste tends to drop off and the puck may need rather firm whacks to get it out. Way too low leaves a mess. It comes down to how much room for grinds expansion is left - when some one gets a drink they like etc and always looking at pucks to see if you can spot anything useful. Sadly the screw socket doesn't always work so well.

In total I've now bought 3 types of the Liddl barrel beans. The Kenya one went into the bin while no one was looking. My wife bought the Uganda stuff I have now so that's not on. Useless but ok for checking basket quantities but water whistles through it so out comes the pressurised basket. 25g was way too much, my son tried 20 this morning and reckonned it was ok but he'll drink anything. 20's too low so I may risk a 22 myself later. The razor tool has proved useful. It seems to leave things at the wrinkled puck level and a bit iffy when they are knocked out. Not too bad for getting an idea of the correct weight but expansion varies according to bean.

I've managed to murder my monsooned. I have an IMS basket stated to hold 9.5g. At the moment that's at 10, fine grind and 50 sec extraction. Taste ok but a bit lacking in strength. A bit less might help with that or an even finer grind but pre infusion it taking it up to 7 bar already with 66% pump power.








There is no way I'll clean a significant amount of grinds out of a used basket. Real baristas don't so why should I. Just like them small residues yes but that's about it as far as I am concerned.

Now I suppose some one may think if the time changed by that much the grind must have changed as well.

John

-


----------



## 4085

@ajohn

You seem to quote professional baristas and their ability to knock a puck out leaving little residue or damp. Are you getting the same frustrating results on a single as well as a double basket? I do not know of any local baristas who would actually pull me a shot using a single as it brings in a whole new set of calculations for them. I am pretty sure they would just split the shot and drink the other bit!

I still am unsure why the fixation on pucks. it in my view, tells you very little. Taste is king for me and yes, it is possible to produce a shot that on paper might not tick all of your boxes, but still tastes fine. Put another way, if you asked a professional barista around and gave him a couple of hours to play, what would his verdict on the equipment you are using be? The chances are he would say you need to improve your kit and technique in order to serve coffee shop standard coffee


----------



## KTD

Greydad said:


> Wifey just called for more coffee so had another chance to experiment.
> 
> 19g in, SGP set to 8, tamped quite hard (exact pressure unknown), used Sage DB 2-shot auto button with default pre-infusion time, extracted to full double shot glass 59g, had to manually stop after 25secs cos it was full.
> 
> started dribbling out after 8-9 secs which seems about right but no idea how to get >25secs without either a) overfilling basket 22-23g again or b) using a pneumatic press to do the tamping for me.
> 
> lovely cuppa coffee though, delish


Can't you just grind finer?finer grind-lighter tamp is more repeatable so works better


----------



## 4085

Greydad said:


> Wifey just called for more coffee so had another chance to experiment.
> 
> 19g in, SGP set to 8, tamped quite hard (exact pressure unknown), used Sage DB 2-shot auto button with default pre-infusion time, extracted to full double shot glass 59g, had to manually stop after 25secs cos it was full.
> 
> started dribbling out after 8-9 secs which seems about right but no idea how to get >25secs without either a) overfilling basket 22-23g again or b) using a pneumatic press to do the tamping for me.
> 
> lovely cuppa coffee though, delish


as said, grind a little finer or, put more coffee in the basket but I would choose the former or you are altering a variable.....both of course will have the effect of slowing the shot down


----------



## Mrboots2u

Horses for courses, if it all tastes good then do nowt, dont makes changes coz the shot doesnt fit into some " time Law" .

If you want a bit more body in the cup grind finer put less water through , will increase strength and body.


----------



## Greydad

Cool thanks chaps will have to wait for another couple hours until Mrs Wifey starts demanding her next hit









Sage SGP: how low will it go?

PS: for @ajohn, latest puck stuck to the shower head lol but came off cleanly with very gentle coercion


----------



## Greydad

KTD said:


> Can't you just grind finer?finer grind-lighter tamp is more repeatable so works better


I'm getting there, just trying to be methodical and scientific about it


----------



## Greydad

Mrboots2u said:


> Grind finer.


Will do I'm boldly grinding where no-one in our house has ever ground before


----------



## Mrboots2u

Greydad said:


> Will do I'm boldly grinding where no-one in our house has ever ground before


Don't alter your tamp, just do the same thing each time , make sure its level.


----------



## Greydad

Noted, have read elsewhere that level is more important than absolute pressure so have been concentrating on that and consistency


----------



## urbanbumpkin

As others have said grind much finer keep everything else the same.

I'm using a naked PF on my Sage DB first drop is at approx 11-12 secs. Spouts about 13-14 sec


----------



## Greydad

urbanbumpkin said:


> I'm using a naked PF on my Sage DB ...


One of those is on the upgrade list as soon as I receive Authorised Expenditure Approval from Wife #1

Since this is a coffee-related expense I expect the authorisation to come through fairly quickly, unlike for a new bass guitar, for example


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Naked PF are a blessing and a curse.

They show up everything wrong in basket prep. If anything is wrong it jus p*sses out every where.


----------



## Greydad

Maybe I'll refine my technique just a little further before splashing out then


----------



## ajohn

dfk41 said:


> @ajohn
> 
> You seem to quote professional baristas and their ability to knock a puck out leaving little residue or damp. Are you getting the same frustrating results on a single as well as a double basket? I do not know of any local baristas who would actually pull me a shot using a single as it brings in a whole new set of calculations for them. I am pretty sure they would just split the shot and drink the other bit!
> 
> I still am unsure why the fixation on pucks. it in my view, tells you very little. Taste is king for me and yes, it is possible to produce a shot that on paper might not tick all of your boxes, but still tastes fine. Put another way, if you asked a professional barista around and gave him a couple of hours to play, what would his verdict on the equipment you are using be? The chances are he would say you need to improve your kit and technique in order to serve coffee shop standard coffee


No frustration - I get my pucks as I want them with very little bother. The only frustration at the moment is not being able to brew for a significant time with a 15bar OPV open.as I could with the BE and maybe a couple of hundred ml going out of it. Over 100 anyway.

I feel taste is king too and don't worry too much about ratios just keep a very loose visual eye on them. They can come out all over the place. With beans other than monsooned I go for what the tasting notes suggest and that in some ways knocks specific ratios on the head. Take the Sumatra bean that I like for a light drink for instance, herbal, chocolate, clean earthy, woody notes, spicy. They also mention syrupy and slight acidity. I mute the herbal aspect down and don't want much chocolate. That sort of thing changes the ratio. You mentioned Jampit so I bought some. It could be very buttery which I didn't like at all so I knocked that aspect right back. I'm even getting something half decent out of the Lidl beans I mentioned even though they need the pressurised basket. Currently at about 1 to 2 but one taste is dominant. My son didn't run the grinder out when I asked him to try 20g so when I did a 22 way too much came out and went all over the place. I'd guess 17 will be in the right ball park and fill the basket.

Frankly if some one mentions say 15g in 30 out. 30 sec and never does anything else they are missing something - worse still they will never know they are.

The DB looks like bad news for people who like to tinker and don't work with settings as they come to me. Better to get things acceptable as it comes, I changed my infusion so that it was BE like, Might have been better to leave it alone. Then play later. I'm not sure I fancy the low pressure brew idea. I have doubts about getting it to work on the Sumatra bean but who knows. There are all sorts of things to try really but in my experience not much scope on grinder settings if a bean is in the right taste ballpark including it's tasting notes.








If I want apples and pears etc afraid I go to the green grocers. So far I totally avoided retailers that offer that. Meybe one day but I decided to stick with origin beans. There are loads to try and some can be used in the single - not many though.

John

-


----------



## 4085

I feel your answer is so comprehensive, it does not require an answer, and in any case, I would not have the faintest idea where to start!


----------



## urbanbumpkin

ajohn said:


> I feel taste is king too and don't worry too much about ratios just keep a very loose visual eye on them.


I don't understand what you mean by the above. Can you elaborate


----------



## ajohn

urbanbumpkin said:


> I don't understand what you mean by the above. Can you elaborate


Very simple - a drink I like the taste of. Eg I do like monsooned brewed to the usual "recipe" however I like the taste better when I extract rather a lot from the grinds. That's not really over or under extracting in the usual sense. Another, the Sumatra can be brewed as a rather heavy tasting drink. When it's brewed for a more light taste it can taste rather herbal or that can be reduced. There are all sorts of permutations. Another I believe dfk drinks Jampit at times and discards the first 6 secs of flow. When I used it I got more out of the grinds to reduce buttery taste.

If I drank a blend that some one had designed to have a specific taste then I'd hope that the usual numbers used would give that taste maybe via marginal changes due to the difference in how various machines extract.








Pucks - I'm having another puck problem with the lidl bean. I now get smooth dark chocolate with no bitterness but there is so much water stuck in the puck that the 3 way can't get it out largely down to a rather fine grind. Make a mess if 2 or more drinks are needed on the trot, it drips out when the portafilter is removed. The puck is a pig to get out as well.

John

-


----------



## urbanbumpkin

ajohn said:


> Very simple - a drink I like the taste of. Eg I do like monsooned brewed to the usual "recipe" however I like the taste better when I extract rather a lot from the grinds. That's not really over or under extracting in the usual sense. Another, the Sumatra can be brewed as a rather heavy tasting drink. When it's brewed for a more light taste it can taste rather herbal or that can be reduced. There are all sorts of permutations. Another I believe dfk drinks Jampit at times and discards the first 6 secs of flow. When I used it I got more out of the grinds to reduce buttery taste.
> 
> If I drank a blend that some one had designed to have a specific taste then I'd hope that the usual numbers used would give that taste maybe via marginal changes due to the difference in how various machines extract.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pucks - I'm having another puck problem with the lidl bean. I now get smooth dark chocolate with no bitterness but there is so much water stuck in the puck that the 3 way can't get it out largely down to a rather fine grind. Make a mess if 2 or more drinks are needed on the trot, it drips out when the portafilter is removed. The puck is a pig to get out as well.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Are you weighing in and out? Or just guessing?


----------



## Greydad

The saga (Sage-a?) grinds on...

OK so no more coffee yesterday as we were rudely interrupted by a rather nice bottle of wine. This morning we're back on plan though. Nearly out of the Costa Rican single origin so had to make do with a single each as this phase of experimentation concludes.

Grind now set down to 6, the finest yet and right in the centre of @KTD 's 4-8 espresso range on the SGP. Weighed in at 19g, same tamp nice and smooth and level, standard DB 30sec 2-shot brew. Result, very nice best yet from this bean very smooth said Wifey, so pleased was she that she didn't even berate me for giving her half her usual morning coffee ration. Puck a bit soggier than previously but no shower head sticking and came out the basket ok too.

So we've learnt how much grind matters in a very fundamental way with this bean as the final taste changed utterly from the coarse grind of 12 down to the final one of 6 with everything else pretty much constant.

Next: the Techno-Wok Home Roasted Colombian Challenge, although that will be a different thread...


----------



## KTD

Greydad said:


> The saga (Sage-a?) grinds on...
> 
> OK so no more coffee yesterday as we were rudely interrupted by a rather nice bottle of wine. This morning we're back on plan though. Nearly out of the Costa Rican single origin so had to make do with a single each as this phase of experimentation concludes.
> 
> Grind now set down to 6, the finest yet and right in the centre of @KTD 's 4-8 espresso range on the SGP. Weighed in at 19g, same tamp nice and smooth and level, standard DB 30sec 2-shot brew. Result, very nice best yet from this bean very smooth said Wifey, so pleased was she that she didn't even berate me for giving her half her usual morning coffee ration. Puck a bit soggier than previously but no shower head sticking and came out the basket ok too.
> 
> So we've learnt how much grind matters in a very fundamental way with this bean as the final taste changed utterly from the coarse grind of 12 down to the final one of 6 with everything else pretty much constant.
> 
> Next: the Techno-Wok Home Roasted Colombian Challenge, although that will be a different thread...


Just to confirm, you may need to grind at 2ish for some beans, lighter medium roast or decaf, just adjust as you go. I normally start off around 4-5 for medium blends. Now your happy with that zone you will find the sweet spot much quicker , even when you think you have nailed it try a bit finer in case your missing something. The sgp has its limitations for sure, but now you see how important the grind is it can justify an upgrade once you reach its limits, also makes a great second grinder to save swapping beans all the time. Accepting that the grinder is as important as the machine is the hardest battle when giving/receiving advice


----------



## ajohn

urbanbumpkin said:


> Are you weighing in and out? Or just guessing?


Already had that conversation so short reply. I closely control what goes in. If the output changes which it hardly does then something has changed and there is no way of knowing if a weighed out drink is any better than what happened to come out. If there is a significant change in output then something is wrong some where.

I should also add that I wouldn't buy a machine that didn't control the shot duration some how.

John

-


----------



## ajohn

Don't suppose many drink full roast oily monsooned but I'm close to a solution. 21mm IMS the single with 10g in it brewed at 6bar via 66% pump power. The "image" on top of the puck looks a bit crisp so can probably use a bit less. 11oz drink.







A bit strong for my wife though and I wouldn't mind weaker. Coarser grind next.

Does any one know of a brand of baskets that give roughly the stated weight capacity on a DB? This single for instance is supposed to be 9.5g, that looked low to me. On a Fracino it wouldn't hold that much, well short of it actually. More like 8 for effective use.

John

-


----------



## Greydad

KTD said:


> Just to confirm, you may need to grind at 2ish for some beans, lighter medium roast or decaf, just adjust as you go. I normally start off around 4-5 for medium blends. Now your happy with that zone you will find the sweet spot much quicker , even when you think you have nailed it try a bit finer in case your missing something. The sgp has its limitations for sure, but now you see how important the grind is it can justify an upgrade once you reach its limits, also makes a great second grinder to save swapping beans all the time. Accepting that the grinder is as important as the machine is the hardest battle when giving/receiving advice


Understood. Most important info for a noob like me is where to start, the only reference points are the machine defaults and on the SGP that's 12/14. That worked sort of ok for the blends we started with but the Costa Rican was totally different - but what to do about it? Need guidance from another SGP user and the key input was your 4-8 comment. Bingo. Try that and we're immediately in the ballpark so ta v. much for that. Now I can set around there as a starting reference and work from there.

I'd probably keep the SGP anyway even if I upgraded as I suspect we will have some decaf on the go in parallel once I start to research that more closely - Wifey is sceptical about decaf but I've noted many favourable comments here and elsewhere about some of the options available.

My home-roast techno-beans are slightly dark and a bit oily so maybe I'll have to go coarser for those - they may well taste disgusting for other reasons but they are 9 days after roasting day now and I'm itching to try them


----------



## ajohn

I doubt if I could use even 8 on mine definitely not 4. It was a refurb and had ground coffee and was set even finer than it is now. I'd guess owned by some one who looked at youtube video and saw comments about adjusting the actual burr setting or assumed it had to set like it was to grind for espresso without even using it. I coarsened the setting just enough for the burrs to more or less clear on a setting of 1 just in case I ever had to work in that area. A setting of 2 is just about free spinning. 1 less so but only just. So I end up working over 10.

Some people start at the finest setting and then open up to save having to run the grinder when it's set finer. If I did that it would be from 9.

A problem with the web. Sometimes the info has been around for years and it seems this grinder did have a problem that needed burr adjsutment or shim etc but they haven't needed that for a long time now. On the other hand odd ones might come out miss set - some one has to fit the outer burr parts each time one is made.

John

-


----------



## Greydad

Interesting and yes a valid point - most new devices when launched will have some issues which usually get worked out by the manufacturers as the production matures but the angry YouTube videos are there forever long after they are relevant and useful. Hence, forums like this are a much better way to get up to date information especially from users who have seen the changes from the beginning.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

ajohn said:


> Already had that conversation so short reply. I closely control what goes in. If the output changes which it hardly does then something has changed and there is no way of knowing if a weighed out drink is any better than what happened to come out. If there is a significant change in output then something is wrong some where.
> 
> I should also add that I wouldn't buy a machine that didn't control the shot duration some how.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Sorry I missed the earlier confirmation that you're weighing in and out . No need for War and Peace.

Are you saying that the Sage DB doesn't allow you change the duration of shots?


----------



## MildredM

urbanbumpkin said:


> Sorry I missed the earlier confirmation that you're weighing in and out . No need for War and Peace.


LOL

"We can know only that we know nothing"


----------



## ajohn

urbanbumpkin said:


> Sorry I missed the earlier confirmation that you're weighing in and out . No need for War and Peace.
> 
> Are you saying that the Sage DB doesn't allow you change the duration of shots?


Don't see how I'm saying that. Only that I wouldn't buy a machine that didn't control the shots itself.

John

-


----------



## urbanbumpkin

ajohn said:


> Don't see how I'm saying that. Only that I wouldn't buy a machine that didn't control the shots itself.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Ahh OK. Sorry as it was a thread relating to Sage DB, I thought you were referring to this.

What machines don't allow shot duration?


----------



## Greydad

I know nobody really cares but I've just had a first brew from my first ever home-roasted techno-beans and I feel another thread coming on...


----------



## urbanbumpkin

ajohn said:


> The video has already been done by Sage


Hi Ajohn

I was meaning you doing it with a single basket and 9.3g dose......


----------



## ajohn

Not much chance of me doing video's. It wouldn't give 9.3g anyway on the bean I use that weight with in the BE single. It can only give an indication of fill weight. A starting point for further changes

I just reset the infusion to Sage defaults. I had set 10 secs and 66%. That gave the same sort of infusion behaviour as my BE but wasn't happy about what was coming out. The change in taste for the default settings was pretty dramatic on both of the beans I am using. MM and a Sumatra Mandheling that I brew in an odd way. Both came out with a much better taste balance. MM on the weak side but showing signs of the need for a finer grind.

I razored the Sumatra to check fill level and the razor just touch it on the edge and the puck spun round. I had used a pretty coarse grind for espresso and assumed 12.5g would be ok in the db single. Not so. I was more or less tamping on the shoulder in the basket. I suspect 13g will be ok for this one but it might need more or a bit less. On the other hand I might be better of using an IMS basket that leaves more scope for variation. There are several sizes of The Single around but their height is more aimed at coping with different shower screen projections on various machines than coffee content.

John

-


----------



## Dylan

What do you mean by 'tamp correctly'?

Does your puck have enough head space - if its pressing against the shower screen then the water tends to 'inject' directly into the coffee. The DB comes with a razor tool which should give you the correct depth for the top of the puck - ideally you want to dose correctly but the razor can help you get the correct dose.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Brew ratio = coffee to water , not water to coffee.

In all honesty I think we are trying to make nice coffee pucks from what I can discern in this thread.


----------



## Jony

Great Holiday read this,


----------



## ajohn

On extraction levels I am surprised that no one has bottomed out the idea in this thread

http://coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/203992

There are some misunderstanding in the posts. Too bogged down on what brix refractometers are usually used for. Refraction usually varies what ever is dissolved in water. I for instance have used them as a quick and pretty precise method of measuring sulphuric acid concentrations -







they don't last long but I didn't have to buy them. Maybe I should have grabbed one before they went in the bin a little tarnished.

Personally I would go for a quality optical brix refractometer as accurate electronic electronic refractometers really do cost a lot of money, way more than a couple of hundred quid. All it probably needs is some one to work out precise conversion factors. Quality optical ones are not cheap either. There are loads of junk offering on these on ebay. Like most things for accuracy they need to be made precisely and that adds to cost. They will have a sizeable part on the end that hinges down over the sample. However for comparison purposes maybe anything is better than nothing.

Resistive TDS meters would be a complete waste of money. They are only really any good for checking seriously de ionised water which is highly unstable so readings soon drift anyway. It would be a really bad idea to drink the stuff. It's inclined to dissolve at least a little bit of almost anything.

John

-


----------



## MWJB

ajohn said:


> On extraction levels I am surprised that no one has bottomed out the idea in this thread
> 
> http://coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/203992
> 
> There are some misunderstanding in the posts. Too bogged down on what brix refractometers are usually used for. Refraction usually varies what ever is dissolved in water. I for instance have used them as a quick and pretty precise method of measuring sulphuric acid concentrations -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they don't last long but I didn't have to buy them. Maybe I should have grabbed one before they went in the bin a little tarnished.
> 
> Personally I would go for a quality optical brix refractometer as accurate electronic electronic refractometers really do cost a lot of money, way more than a couple of hundred quid. All it probably needs is some one to work out precise conversion factors. Quality optical ones are not cheap either. There are loads of junk offering on these on ebay. Like most things for accuracy they need to be made precisely and that adds to cost. They will have a sizeable part on the end that hinges down over the sample. However for comparison purposes maybe anything is better than nothing.
> 
> Resistive TDS meters would be a complete waste of money. They are only really any good for checking seriously de ionised water which is highly unstable so readings soon drift anyway. It would be a really bad idea to drink the stuff. It's inclined to dissolve at least a little bit of almost anything.
> 
> John
> 
> -


That's a 12 year old post and discussions about various refractometers & their usefulness have been thrashed out again & again since then. Can we please stick to this thread.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Why don't you do a video clip of the shot (including your basket prep) to see if anyone can see where it might be going wrong.


----------



## Mrboots2u

urbanbumpkin said:


> Why don't you do a video clip of the shot (including your basket prep) to see if anyone can see where it might be going wrong.


I'm not sure what "right" is in this context anymore.


----------



## ajohn

Mrboots2u said:


> I'm not sure what "right" is in this context anymore.


LOL Good point. What ever crops up as I work through various baskets. I didn't start mentioning extraction but ok if people want to know I will see if I can find out.

John

-


----------



## ajohn

Mrboots2u said:


> Im a bit lost , you are stopping a shot by time? weighing it ? Then starting the shot again to get to a desired weight? It's a little unclear .
> 
> Really just buy some scales that fit in your drip tray, your making life way too complicated.
> 
> Also can you explain what you mean by this ?
> 
> "Ideally then I would want scales on the machine to the volume"


My small scales are the same thickness as the Amazon squarish ones many seem to buy. Too thick to fit. Many would be. I have some tiny ones that can just about fit but their capacity is too low. Have to see what else I can find or make do by trial and making corrections.

I'd be extremely unlikely to change my glass mugs. Actually I could set up with a shot glass - probably the simplest answer. I have tried simply tipping what went in that into my mug. Cools the drink but the DB water is hotter than I would ideally want. I just thought dam when I found the scales wouldn't fit,







the shot glass was on top of the machine.

Explanation - it takes seconds to weigh the shot off the machine, if I put it back on and hold the single shot button and don't release it goes straight to 9.x bar. Ok if the shot is short. As I currently am 30 sec always will be. I just assume little went in during 12 secs of infusion. That leaves 18 sec where most went in so the missing part can be added pro rata via time.

John

-


----------



## urbanbumpkin

ajohn said:


> LOL Good point. What ever crops up as I work through various baskets. I didn't start mentioning extraction but ok if people want to know I will see if I can find out.
> 
> John
> 
> -


....it's all about the baskets.


----------



## ajohn

urbanbumpkin said:


> ....it's all about the baskets.


Maybe I am a bit of a basket case.

John

-


----------



## Snakehips

ajohn said:


> Maybe I am a bit of a basket case.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Arguably, your most sensible post yet !









Admittedly, I have no experience of using Sage equipment but your posts confuse the hell out of me.

I suspect, I do not inhabit the world of @ajohn


----------



## 4085

The odd thing is, I also have a Sage Db but do not bother with single baskets. You can count on one hand the number of bad shots I have pulled when owning one. Admittedly, my grinders are usually higher end meaning more consistency, but I do not suffer from any of the problems @ajohn does. I am a little unclear why a DB owner would want to replicate a shot pulled on a BE. I am sure that it is in the basket. Go to the standard Sage double and dose at 18 gms....If I make an americano which I often do, I can add more water to it if needs be. I find 2:1 ratios not to my liking and stick to the old fashioned +60% of dry weight, preferring the intensity it brings, but again, everyone is different


----------



## urbanbumpkin

ajohn said:


> Maybe I am a bit of a basket case.
> 
> John
> 
> -


http:// https://goo.gl/images/8C1CAE


----------



## ajohn

@dfk41 pretty simple - I like the taste it produces and as you say everyone is different. Not sure what + 60% dry weight means. I assume 1 to 1.6. That is about what I am getting at 30 sec. I have bean meaning to drink one rather than run it on to 1 to 2. I was using higher ratio's around 1 to 3 or more on the BE so would be inclined to run it on but that's at 15 bar not 9.x. Maybe you mean 1 to 0.6 in 30 sec or some other time? I would have thought not.

Some one mentioned that I am having problems - afraid not. I am getting close to what I want. In some ways the BE is a much easier machine to use as I've put a far few kg of the same bean through it. The DB needs a different approach and some of it's features mean so far that I can't work as I usually do. I am not producing bad shots. My wife would be happy with 12.3g in the basket I am using. Me - yes but I'd prefer a bit more taste.

After what I found bizarre, cold portafilter and much more lingering taste I dropped the temperature to 92C from 96 and preheated the portafilter as I usually do. The taste went the same way but not as much. Lower still next shot. That is nothing like what the BE did. I'd guess that the DB's temperature control is better / different. Also used 12.3g again but committed my personal sin - tamped out of level. I should have noticed that. I'm a bit annoyed that the DB flashes it's brew temperature after running hot water but now run that first so it's stable by the time I get the portafilter in.

My first clean me message has popped up. Surprised I have now pulled 200 shot. Mostly drinkable apart from a different bean that I thought I would have problems with and tamping problems using the Sage single. That wasted a lot of my time.

John

-


----------



## Dylan

> I was using higher ratio's around 1 to 3 or more on the BE so would be inclined to run it on but that's at 15 bar not 9.x


I think part of what's so confusing is you keep coming up with these non sequitur statements.

1:3 is a long pull but perfectly reasonable if you like the coffee that way, 1:1.6 is going to produce a very different drink. Which again is fine, so far so good.

But these particular ratios don't have much, if anything, to do with pulling your shot at 15 bar vs 9, so it is an odd statement to track on to the end of that sentence.

To be clear, different pressures do have an effect on taste/extraction and brew time, but not in the way your sentence seems to suggest.


----------



## 9719

Snakehips said:


> Arguably, your most sensible post yet !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admittedly, I have no experience of using Sage equipment but your posts confuse the hell out of me.
> 
> I suspect, I do not inhabit the world of @ajohn


Where can you like some more

Ok found it


----------



## Mrboots2u

I'm never getting the time back I have spent from reading this thread. Yet again I am my biggest disappointment

There are some great stickies here on how to help people get the best from their espresso machine. Some simple scales and adjusting your workflow can quickly help people improve their coffee experience ( IMHO ).

I really am not trying to be mean but I just don't get the workflow, the process, and the point of most of this thread, If i were a new sage DB user and I was reading this in the hope of getting some simple workflow advice then I think I would just sell my machine and drink tea, or go to Home barista. I am not sure which would be worse.

By all means keep experimenting and posting, me I'm gonna stop reading and enjoy my cup of tea at work.


----------



## ajohn

Dylan said:


> I think part of what's so confusing is you keep coming up with these non sequitur statements.
> 
> 1:3 is a long pull but perfectly reasonable if you like the coffee that way, 1:1.6 is going to produce a very different drink. Which again is fine, so far so good.
> 
> But these particular ratios don't have much, if anything, to do with pulling your shot at 15 bar vs 9, so it is an odd statement to track on to the end of that sentence.
> 
> To be clear, different pressures do have an effect on taste/extraction and brew time, but not in the way your sentence seems to suggest.


You have pulled shots at 15 bar then ? The reason I mentioned is that some one else may switch from the same machine to the DB - they can expect things to be different. The same could be true moving from a DTP, in fact some one who has seems to be having problems, same reason - pass never used one. One fact that is very clear to me is that both the DB and the Piccino need more coffee to match the taste levels that the BE can produce.

John

-


----------



## iulianato

ajohn said:


> One fact that is very clear to me is that both the DB and the Piccino need more coffee to match the taste levels that the BE can produce.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Is the BE better than DB then? This is what I understand from this. Isn't DB supposed to be better at least because allows you more control and allows you to pull in the same way as with the BE?

Is BE pulling at 15bar? That will be odd


----------



## fluffles

iulianato said:


> Is the BE better than DB then? This is what I understand from this. Isn't DB supposed to be better at least because allows you more control and allows you to pull in the same way as with the BE?
> 
> Is BE pulling at 15bar? That will be odd


I wouldn't try to draw any conclusions from this thread if I were you


----------



## Dylan

ajohn said:


> You have pulled shots at 15 bar then ? The reason I mentioned is that some one else may switch from the same machine to the DB - they can expect things to be different. The same could be true moving from a DTP, in fact some one who has seems to be having problems, same reason - pass never used one. One fact that is very clear to me is that both the DB and the Piccino need more coffee to match the taste levels that the BE can produce.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Yes. And at 9 and at 7 and at 6.


----------



## ajohn

iulianato said:


> Is the BE better than DB then? This is what I understand from this. Isn't DB supposed to be better at least because allows you more control and allows you to pull in the same way as with the BE?
> 
> Is BE pulling at 15bar? That will be odd


Thought I had replied to that, probably clicked the wrong button.

Your right it is odd. Can't really say one is better than the other. It's been said ( at least once ) that all Sage machines will make good coffee. I wouldn't argue. Other than the huge leap between the size of the single and the double I have no complaints about my BE at all. I tend to like more potent beans at the moment. Some ok in the single some not and too much in the double. Solved by finding a basket that fits and holds around 14g on it. The 15bar surprised me, gauge not calibrated so I bent the needle on a 10 bar gauge measuring it.

Sage give more as people pay more. DTP basic, BE adds grinder and buttons and by the look of it volume based output. DB boilers, volume or time, ability to play with infusion settings. That can be done after a fashion on the BE by keeping a finger pressed on the shot button but only with the pump power the machine comes set at. That could be used to brew at any pressure much like the DB but no pump power control. Personally I am really glad I bought one of theirs as a first machine, No shocks, all can easily be descaled and the manuals even mention what needs to be done to maintain them. I did know about descaling from long ago - people who used distilled to get round it. Descaling is easy on all Sage machines. All of their machines heat up quickly.







I shouldn't have changed from a BE so soon really. DB end of the line - maybe. I don't know. I haven't pulled 200 shots on the DB - refurbished some one else pulled "some" but the actual number is similar to my use of my Piccino. That allows me to weigh one against the other. Heat up time is a major factor for me, I like shot buttons. I have pulled way way more on the BE.

I use "single" baskets - quotes because they hold more than typical 7g can but that could explain a lot. In the BE's manual there is a wonderful diagram showing what the needle on the pressure gauge should do. It may well do that on their double. I've tried all sort and have yet to find a bean where it could behave like that on smaller baskets. Net effect higher than the usual machine brew pressures finish up being used. It doen't concern me it's still a case of quantity, grind and shot size.

One thing all of their machines have in common is infusion. That is bound to have an effect on extraction. Sort of reply to MrBoot's post. I didn't find the pinned threads much use or comments about 2:1 ratios and 30 sec etc - on the BE. My Piccino is different again, not used much as the heat up time doesn't really fit in. It too can produce great coffee. The trick with all of them is finding out what "parameters" to use to get something that the drinker likes. The DB offers several things that can be changed. Some people set for 6 bar brewing. Another went for 9 when they started using it. I'm using the OPV and may try changing other aspect slowly at some point. First task is a decent drink that I like with the machine more or less set as it comes using my favourite bean.

There are a couple of things that may be "odd" about my approach. I want pucks that knock out pretty cleanly so don't need clearing out for another shot so serious under filling is out. The taste I want from Monsooned doesn't really match the tasting notes - I generally always aim to match those initially at least and may even stick with them. I try many variations on any bean I buy. And of course I generally don't use Sage doubles.







I also don't mind flack off pundits either. Given my find out for myself approach I expect it but do surprise surprise listen and even try it. People can draw their own conclusion on why I may choose to do something different.

John

-


----------



## MWJB

It would not now, nor ever has been, a good idea to put distilled water in an espresso machine, without some level of remineralisation.


----------



## Dylan

> That can be done after a fashion on the BE by keeping a finger pressed on the shot button but only with the pump power the machine comes set at.


How does this



> That could be used to brew at any pressure much like the DB but no pump power control.


result in being able to brew at 'any pressure'?

Distilled water does not conduct electricity, if you used it your machine would keep filling up until it overflowed.


----------



## MWJB

ajohn said:


> One thing all of their machines have in common is infusion. That is bound to have an effect on extraction. Sort of reply to MrBoot's post. I didn't find the pinned threads much use or comments about 2:1 ratios and 30 sec etc - on the BE.


There isn't a thread that says 1:2 & 30s is a magic bullet, or that you shouldn't deviate from this. Yet, in other threads you say you pull 30s shots at ~1:2?

What exactly is it that you do do?


----------



## ajohn

The pump power is reduced during infusion as it is on the DB. The pressure given during infusion is dependent on the grind. As I set for MM for instance infusion would reach 6 bar. If I kept my finger on the shot button it would settle loosely at that pressure and remain there. It would have already been at that pressure for several seconds. The catch comes when the button is released - pump power goes straight to max so another press is needed immediately to terminate it. On a normal MM pull with the default 10 sec infusion full pump power will open the OPV when the grinds are that fine. Net result rather a lot of water going out of it. I've measured over 200ml. This is using it's nominal 10g single of course. The manual shot button on the DB provides the same facility. It also allows both the pump power and the duration to be changed in it's menus giving more control - not just grind. 6 bar may be popular on the DB going on the few comments on the subject. I did try it briefly but found I was obtaining a stewed coffee over done in an old style percolator taste. Not that this means that this is what the technique does. I just decided to forget that for a while and stick with more or less the standard settings the machine comes with. It would be possible to spend rather a long time playing with settings.

Distilled water. I used to work alongside a lot of industrial chemists. An analytical one always had his still running. I asked why when he had a high end de ioniser available. He showed me. The stuff is highly unstable. Espresso machine cropped up in the conversation. Maybe these people did remin. it. My recollection is that it is conductive. Plenty of it about here but no conductivity meter. There is also distilled water and distilled water - it is sometimes triple distilled.

Do Do etc. One the BE I found 1 to 3 or more best on MM with the single. Hard to be precise as I established that via taste rather than measuring. I recollect that it was the order of 1 to 2 or so at 30 sec. Since the DB I have always measured it and also when I tried different settings on MM and another bean on the BE using a larger basket - following suggestions made on here.

On the DB I've now drunk 3 shots using 1 to 3 in 40sec based round 12.5g, One was high and another low. First deliberate 2nd seems to be due to 1st grind of the day.. I've dropped the temperature to 92C. I had been using 96 but following obtaining a much stronger after taste using a cold portafilter thought heat it and go lower. Easier for drinks on the trot. Same effect but not so extreme. I'm getting frequent can you do me ones now but wont until I'm happy with it and can pull to suite my wife. Crema is better too







could probably do latte art on it with an eye dropper. Not as long lasting as the BE sadly but a bit of a bite to it. Result, little milk added.









Taste wise decent after taste that my wife can probably mellow with sugar. Drink taste ok but I'd like more of it. I have also ground 1 Mazzer knotch and a 1/2 finer, Not sure about that one - drink taste better but more clumping out of the Mazzer. No substance to them really though. Where it is at the moment clumps on top from brushing out fall apart when I tap the grinds.

I wont be fitting a scale to the mazzer as per one of my posts. Too much trouble. It has a stop which just about prevents the burrs from touching and a hole in the edge which corresponds with a setting I had on the SGP. So I'm currently on notch 1 at the moment.







If I need to go coarser they will be negative notches - I suspect those will be needed on larger baskets.

Next shot - finer, maybe 3/4 of a notch or so. That should improve drInk taste - after taste pass. Also need to see what a tune using the SGP grinder does. Then a bigger basket but I expect to find it tough to get both the level of and the taste I want. I've bean there on the BE. Different machine though so who knows. The Piccino with 12g was different again - using the SGP. I didn't try to really chase my taste on that. Just compare with the BE. It produced a rather nice drink actually.

I mentioned the BE being volume based. Tuning purely on taste I can't quote number but I had feeling that the shot time varied a little all of the time I was using it. I can eyeball the output fairly precisely. Then one day I decides to set a 25 sec shot but used an empty pressurised basket to set it. It went on and on and on with my load in one of the usual baskets - that's as far as that aspect got. I concluded it was either one hell of a software flaw or volume based output. Odd thing to do but I'd prefer to set shots and then use them rather than program on the fly but really that is a better option. I haven't the time at the moment to go back to the BE and nail it down at the moment. It would be well worth while some one else looking at that. Me I need to dig out stuff that's well packed away and find out what the "##??!!! the grinder on it is doing.

John

-


----------



## 4085

I get so confused trying to piece all this information together, @ajohn.......i did a complaint for a client many years ago, who was a mathematician. He wanted to do the complaint but needed me as a postboy. I told him he was making it far too complex and when the complaint when in, it ws rejected even though it had merit, as no one had the foggiest what he was going on about!

I run a DB. I dislike intensely using buttons with power to them for anything other than an on/off feature. I set my preinfusion to 60 seconds, my pump pressure down to I think around 65, and that usually pulls me a shot at between 5 and 7 bar. How much grind is in the basket affects it, as does tamp pressure. I would say it was nigh on possible to replicate this on a shot to shot basis, therefore a little tolerance is required.

Will you ever find Nirvana?.......I hope so!


----------



## ajohn

LOL Like I said @dfk41 I try lots of variations but so far do find one that suites eventually, remember it and then maybe mess about again. I enjoy doing that sort of thing. I've only produced down the sink MM early on, just 2 or 3 of them.

Things are more stable now. I did run the hot water out just before the shot so the temp indicator was often flashing - I do it while grinding now and if flashing preheating the portafilter stabilises it. The Mazzer also seems to have changed so I have to admit that new burrs should be conditioned. With the 500g I just ran though in one go they have probably done over a kg now. On the other hand it might not be keen on oily beans set as it is. Hope not.

Another problem is the roast I received. Not the usual one. I have tried 3 levels of this and it does make a difference. This ones roast differs, the beans were too light in colour and only a few showed oil. They all do now. Normally they are all oily from day one.

My slight change to the grinder setting and running on longer is much more like it. Should have been 12.5 was 12.3g in, 44g out in 60 sec. It was a do it and see what comes out shot. I initially went longer as I was clearly getting as much oil out as on the BE but something was missing. I had been sticking to around 1 to 2 or so. On the face of it if I back off the grind and run long I may get an improvement - less oil which IMHO is the source of most of the after taste on this bean. Also by going bigger basket coarser grind but I suspect my 12g Fracino basket will hold about 14g and that may be too much when the sweetness the bean has is tuned out. That leaves a nice smooth version of it's particular coffee taste hopefully with a bit of a bite but that can be illusive. On the other hand the taste from the Piccino was different, good but rather week with circa 12g.

John

-


----------



## iulianato

^^^



dfk41 said:


> I get so confused trying to piece all this information together, @ajohn.......i did a complaint for a client many years ago, who was a mathematician. He wanted to do the complaint but needed me as a postboy. I told him he was making it far too complex and when the complaint when in, it ws rejected even though it had merit, as no one had the foggiest what he was going on about!
> 
> I run a DB. I dislike intensely using buttons with power to them for anything other than an on/off feature. I set my preinfusion to 60 seconds, my pump pressure down to I think around 65, and that usually pulls me a shot at between 5 and 7 bar. How much grind is in the basket affects it, as does tamp pressure. I would say it was nigh on possible to replicate this on a shot to shot basis, therefore a little tolerance is required.
> 
> Will you ever find Nirvana?.......I hope so!


I bet you did not persuade your mathematician.


----------



## 4085

iulianato said:


> ^^^
> 
> I bet you did not persuade your mathematician.


as the old joke went, he worked it out with a pencil..........


----------



## El carajillo

Does anyone have the feeling that this is going the same way as the cat and the wall:whistle:


----------



## ajohn

El carajillo said:


> Does anyone have the feeling that this is going the same way as the cat and the wall:whistle:


LOL What am I the cat or the soldiers or something else ?







Or maybe I am under the floorboards. I had noticed that few people get involved in brewing posts.

No mathematician here. I changed things to see what happened for a living. Generally in the areas I worked in and many others changing one thing messes up another - bit like coffee but the only outcome that matters with that is taste. New machine and a new grinder - distinct differences from what I used before. Even a new style of basket.

Anyway I have my taste now. Strength ok but I wouldn't mind more. My wife wouldn't. I tried 12.7g again this morning. Too much at some point in the brew. "Bit" of a depression in the puck on the side the water goes into the shower arrangement. New one on me compared with the BE. Tasted ok though. I may have tamped a bit out of square. I'm used to using a Sage tamper and checking that as I do it. Not the thing with a big hefty handle and a thicker chunk of metal on the end that I am using now.

What I should do shortly is switch to a Sage grinder - the make that some say just can't produce a decent drink. Probably never used one so based on price. I want to bottom that out for myself. One person mentioned very convenient and that it does something to the cup. dfk41 just couldn't get on with them. I've put kg's though them. Oracle owners seem to be happy.

Probably try the next basket size up soon. I have a lot more freedom in that area than I had on the BE. The IMS "The Singles" seem to do something different to me but it could be down to a change of grinder. I suspect it's a more even extraction. Several sizes are available but they will hold more on a DB as VST's offerings probably will. Around 2g by the look of it. I think I saw a 23.5mm version recently.







I wonder how much coffee corresponds to an extra 0.5mm

John

-


----------



## Snakehips

The Life And Times OF 'ajohn'

Fair play aj..... you're keeping me amused.

I'm looking forward to the movie.


----------



## 9719

Snakehips said:


> The Life And Times OF 'ajohn'
> 
> Fair play aj..... you're keeping me amused.
> 
> I'm looking forward to the movie.


----------



## 4085

ajohn said:


> LOL What am I the cat or the soldiers or something else ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe I am under the floorboards. I had noticed that few people get involved in brewing posts.
> 
> No mathematician here. I changed things to see what happened for a living. Generally in the areas I worked in and many others changing one thing messes up another - bit like coffee but the only outcome that matters with that is taste. New machine and a new grinder - distinct differences from what I used before. Even a new style of basket.
> 
> Anyway I have my taste now. Strength ok but I wouldn't mind more. My wife wouldn't. I tried 12.7g again this morning. Too much at some point in the brew. "Bit" of a depression in the puck on the side the water goes into the shower arrangement. New one on me compared with the BE. Tasted ok though. I may have tamped a bit out of square. I'm used to using a Sage tamper and checking that as I do it. Not the thing with a big hefty handle and a thicker chunk of metal on the end that I am using now.
> 
> What I should do shortly is switch to a Sage grinder - the make that some say just can't produce a decent drink. Probably never used one so based on price. I want to bottom that out for myself. One person mentioned very convenient and that it does something to the cup. dfk41 just couldn't get on with them. I've put kg's though them. Oracle owners seem to be happy.
> 
> Probably try the next basket size up soon. I have a lot more freedom in that area than I had on the BE. The IMS "The Singles" seem to do something different to me but it could be down to a change of grinder. I suspect it's a more even extraction. Several sizes are available but they will hold more on a DB as VST's offerings probably will. Around 2g by the look of it. I think I saw a 23.5mm version recently.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how much coffee corresponds to an extra 0.5mm
> 
> John
> 
> -


Can you imagine the whole new world opening up to you, when you get a proper grinder! I am sure you have taken the Sage as far as it can go, but you must realise that a bigger burr is going to let you try things that at the moment you cannot


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## Jony

oohhh ahhhhhhh


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## 4085

I used to be fixated with Java Jampit....perhaps you should try it from coffee Compass who roast it exceptionally well.....make sure it is the SO one and not the blend


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## urbanbumpkin

Go on ...tell me more!


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## iulianato

Looking forward for your JJ adventure. You really need to start this journey and report back.


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## urbanbumpkin

iulianato said:


> Looking forward for your JJ adventure. You really need to start this journey and report back.


Ahh Adventures in jampit


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## urbanbumpkin

ajohn said:


> Thank you for a bit of a crackpot post.
> 
> -


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## coffeechap

ajohn said:


> Thank you for a bit of a crackpot post.
> 
> I did mention that roast level on MM does change taste.
> 
> John
> 
> -


I am not so sure that mwjb is the crackpot here!


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## MildredM

Snakehips said:


> @ajohn In all seriousness, I woke up this morning thinking about you. Not the best start to a Saturday morning I grant you but I've had worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Given your obvious interest in MM and in recognition of you being a good sport as well as something of a coffee enigma, I was going to PM you and ask if you would like me to send you a bag of Rave MM beans.
> 
> The Rave MM is one of many different beans that we enjoy on an ongoing basis. For us, it never fails to deliver so I wondered if you would care to try some.
> 
> Having now read post #228 I am unsure that it such a good idea as the Rave MM is consistently and evenly roasted and shows no sign of oil whatsoever. I haven't actually tried the sticking to tin test but I suspect they would fail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If despite the above you should wish for me to send you a bag to try then please don't hesitate to let me know.


I have tried and tried, I've held off, torn myself away from this thread, but now . . . I am sorry to say I can't stop myself from putting fingers to iPad. This is something I do once in a while, usually sticking to threads and topics I know as least a modicum about so I can add some interesting input, or failing that then at least a pithy comment makes me feel better even if no one bothers to read it. That doesn't matter much.

Anyway. I digress. This was one of those times. Now, where was I . . . Oh yes. I wanted to address the points you make in your post, Snake.

YOU WOKE UP THIS MORNING THINKING ABOUT SOMEONE ELSE? And not only that, you then go on (and on) to offer this new thought-filling person your coffee beans without a buy-your-leave. All this in some kind of non-Snakehips manner of all-new politeness hitherto unheard of upon the forum. Not even ever. And me? I offer you my Caffeine magazine, my signed copy at that, but oh no, you turn it down flat. I then say, 'don't you even think about me and my forthcoming Birthday, dear friend,' and you are all, 'oh ok then, I won't,' without any thought to how that may make me feel. Well, it makes me feel miffed that's what this does. Jolly well miffed, if you must know. And another thing, you keep saying in your post 'us' . . . And 'we'. I am sorry but I do not under any circumstances drink nor enjoy MM beans. So you can speak for yourself.

By the way, while I am here, just how DO you prepare your coffee, and how do you grind your spectacular beans? If you could tell me and if I could maybe procure some of said beans maybe I could try and replicate your recipe on my own equipment although I will have the advantage of being able to twice grind them as I have been told by a barista in the outer reaches of the east Congolese that this if oft the best way to get the best from the beans and not to overheat the water or even to try changing the Ceme switch if I get a moments.

*Breathe*

I am not sure where all this is going really but I just found I needed to vent probably because I've been working like a dervish all day non stop doing all the jobs necessary before the State Visit later in the summer of some VIGs although now I could to think about it I am sorely tempted to retract our invitation and return all past gifts proffered willy nilly by said VIGs who I suspect were hoping to garner some sort of priveledges thus unknown to one and all.

Did someone say crackers? Jacobs for me then, please.


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## MildredM

Missy said:


> I'm confused...


No!!!


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## urbanbumpkin

ajohn said:


> No. Those are 5 bullet points.
> 
> -


Wow


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## GCGlasgow

@ajohn did you happen to write government claim forms for benefits, visa's etc previously?


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## MildredM

> No need to weigh out as I will have picked one based on taste. If taste changes then something has changed. Then I may weigh out. I would have probably noticed a significant change in that anyway - glass mugs via the handle position.


I may regret this but what does this mean?* Glass mugs via the handle position. *





*
*


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## ashcroc

MildredM said:


> I may regret this but what does this mean?[/i][/color]* Glass mugs via the handle position. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *


Quazivolumetric I think.


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## Snakehips

urbanbumpkin said:


> Can you summarise these 5 paragraphs in single bullet points or do a video of your shot prep and shot?


I don't think Matron allows the use of mobile phones.











ajohn said:


> No. Those are 5 bullet points. The last one describes my work flow as it is other than the obvious one - grinder settings.
> 
> John
> 
> -


John, I don't think I can take much more, if there are any bullets left, please send me one.


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## Mrboots2u

Rammel.


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## Dylan

I need to stop opening this thread.


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## 4085

John, do not get me wrong. I am not knocking your efforts, thoughts and what you do, but, to give you a silly example, you say it is 116 miles from Newcastle to Edinburgh via the Al as per RAC Route Planner. You then tell us that you vary the starting position (because you are not starting off from the same position everytime) and expect us to believe your results. If you drove from point a to point b, exactly, 5 times and found some variance on mileage we could have a conversation, but when you tell us the mileage is different every time but you have no baseline start position.......the same bean will vary from roaster to roaster, as will the roast from roaster A done on a monday and a tuesday, which is one of the reason I accept tolerance and variance in my shots. Even by weighing in and out I cannot guarantee grind particle size, tamp pressure and angle of tamp etc etc

To me, since you have no baseline you will never ever have the finished product. Every shot you ever pull will be an attempted week because you cannot replicate a shot. It has been well documented that putting a shot into a glass using volume as a measurement is not the way to go. You also have to accept, that the results you are getting are severely impaired by the quality of machine and grinder you are playing around with.

But, all this matters not as long as you are happy with what you are doing......but you have to ask yourself a question, which is why are you ploughing a lone furrow.......at school, I liked The Who when everyone else liked Slade so I know a little when it comes to doing it 'my way', but I also know when to acknowledge other ways......it would be very interesting if you could attend a future forum day and bring your kit......that would allow others to watch (and learn) and taste your output, and allow others to make your comparable drinks on the machines there.......you just might get your eyes opened


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## iulianato

Oh, well, pfff, volumetric on commercial machines is the volume of the water going through the coffee not the volume of the output which could vary in volume from shot to shot depending on preparation and other factors. The culprit of this is the crema of course LOL


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## 4085

So both the Sage DB and the Mazzer MIni poor quality machines ? As home kit goes I don't think I would agree with that.

I did not say that. I said, compared to other equipment that a lot of home users have. I too have a Sage DB, actually, I have had 4 and even though I hate it with vegeance, it does perform remarkably well. I had a Vesuvius and hated it, because quite simply, I could not be arsed experimenting all the time. The real reference I was making, were to your grinders. The recently acquired MM is a big step up from a Sage grinder, but still absolutely miles behind others that a lot of people have access to. this is in no way looking down on anyone who does not have a high end grinder, but it is a fact that a high end grinder will destroy anything a MM can put out. Maybe one day you will get the chance to try a high end grinder. You will find it compliments your Sage in a way the other grinders cannot.....I do not expect you to believe me, but I can assure you, if a MM outperformed the grinders I have been lucky enough to own, I would know about it and probably have a couple.......as it happens, I hate Mazzers with vengeance too that will never happen, but hey ho


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## iulianato

John,

air în the puck is caused by clumps and bad distribution in the pf. Break the clumps then distribute evenly and leveled then tamp. Odd tamping techniques won't help with distribution an won't help break some clumps.

Weight the input and output. 18g in 36g out for example would be a common 1:2 ratio. Getting a 1:2.2 could be a very different coffee taste wise. This means 4g more coffee so 40g out that could make a big difference taste wise. Will you be able to eyeball 4g more coffee in your mug? I think I know the answer. Cheers


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## ajohn

iulianato said:


> John,
> 
> air în the puck is caused by clumps and bad distribution in the pf. Break the clumps then distribute evenly and leveled then tamp. Odd tamping techniques won't help with distribution an won't help break some clumps.
> 
> Weight the input and output. 18g in 36g out for example would be a common 1:2 ratio. Getting a 1:2.2 could be a very different coffee taste wise. This means 4g more coffee so 40g out that could make a big difference taste wise. Will you be able to eyeball 4g more coffee in your mug? I think I know the answer. Cheers


It's a long thread so you probably didn't notice that on this particular bean I brew higher ratio's for the taste I want. That's me and I wont be changing it. Having solved the problem I may or may not finish up at the ratio I mentioned. Some one else mentioned brewing this bean as a ristretto. If I remember correctly they said it produced a sweet drink. As I tend to use it the sweet aspect goes. They probably were not using the roast I like to use either.

I'm pretty sure it's not clumps. It's trapped air. The IMS "The Single" style baskets have a rather small perforation area and that plus their shape seems to be the cause aided by oil - clumps well I would have have had the problem before and I haven't. I've used several kg of these beans and the wobbled portafilter shots were done on my Sage grinder as all of the kg's have been. Well not exactly, the Sage grinder built into me BE. It had been set up for MM for almost as long as I have had it. The SGP was bought for trying other beans but is essentially the same as the other one.







Actually the way I use the SGP - weighing in - I should really have bought the Dose Control Pro.

Same problem on the Mazzer grinds as well. I switched because I am curious about how far the grinders can go fine and also differences in taste if I can tune both to similar ratios and flow times. Looks like I can. The mazzer showed more signs of clumping as the grinds went finer but they disintegrated with a tap,

I feel that the bubble coming out of the partafilter and a stuttered flow at times suggest trapped air but have thought stir the grinds up but then comes the question as to why I haven't had to do that before - ever. That doesn't mean I wont try stirring them up, just doubt that it will help. Biggest problem with the bean on the BE was the huge pile of grinds it produced. It's best really to set the timer for a 1/2 dose so that they can be tapped down a bit 1/2 way through.

No comment about volume I'll leave that to people who feel pedantic - personally if I set up with a shot glass I'd ignore the crema. People might find some tutorials on youtube by people who have been on a barista course and were given a shot glass.







I know one is UK based as well or has emigrated,

John

-


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## iulianato

John,

I did not want to suggest a ratio. My point for you and for whoever is looking to learn something from this never ending story is that if you do not set fixed start and fixed end points you will never know if you are deviating or not. Or with other words: without reference you'll never know where you are.

That said, may ask why are you against weighting each shot's in and out? It only takes 2s and will give you more control and consistency.


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## 4085

iulianato said:


> John,
> 
> I did not want to suggest a ratio. My point for you and for whoever is looking to learn something from this never ending story is that if you do not set fixed start and fixed end points you will never know if you are deviating or not. Or with other words: without reference you'll never know where you are.
> 
> That said, may ask why are you against weighting each shot's in and out? It only takes 2s and will give you more control and consistency.


I have said the same thing repeatedly! If you do not know the start and the end, the journey is largely irrelevant as you cannot replicate it. I am picking up a large hint of stubbornness here @ajohn......! Youtube has videos of people stuffing water melons up their arses, but I would not recommend you copy it! You see all sorts of utter and complete rubbish.....the fact some of it seems to back up your own thoughts is purely coincidental!


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## ajohn

iulianato said:


> John,
> 
> I did not want to suggest a ratio. My point for you and for whoever is looking to learn something from this never ending story is that if you do not set fixed start and fixed end points you will never know if you are deviating or not. Or with other words: without reference you'll never know where you are.
> 
> That said, may ask why are you against weighting each shot's in and out? It only takes 2s and will give you more control and consistency.


I haven't found any need to weigh out other than as a check as to what it is at some point. On the DB unusual for me I aimed for 1 to 2 and then adjusted grind further. Due to the puck problems the results were meaningless. Taste suggested that the ratio at 30 sec would finish up being around sub 1 to 2 pushed to around 1 to 3 via extending the 30 sec. I had played with grinds that would extend the 1 to 3 time to over 50 secs. Actually going on taste the 1 to 3 at 40sec with no puck problems is close to how I like it. 40 sec gave me 44 out for 13 in. As I mentioned I might decide I like the DB taste. It could turn out that I can't obtain the same taste as the BE gave.

I am weighing in at the moment by loading the weight I want into the grinder checking every one that comes out. Also using the Mazzer like that but can't see myself continuing to use it this way - too much faffing. I've added a weight to prevent popcorning which means 2 uses of the brush and the grinder. If I continue using that it will be via it's timer with a tube hopper and weight. Some one reckons that will hold to +/- 0.2g. I can live with that and then do daily checks. Probably have to grind out and dispose of some stale grinds each day as well. That one will become the equivalent of the one I did use on the BE - set up for what I usually drink. Popcorning doesn't seem to be as much of a problem on the Sage grinders. Actually when I decided to condition the burrs on the Mazzer with some beans I didn't want it was interesting to see when beans started bouncing about as the hopper went low. Much much lower than I expected from some comments I have seen. I'd guess this is because Mazzer fling the beans under a ledge and there is only one way they can go - out of the burrs.







Having worked in design I'm always interested in features things have and why they may have done things as they have.

Sitting here one thing that surprises me is that I could reach the results I mentioned without using scales at all other than for grind yet people just don't seem to see that. I use taste. All it needs is some familiarity with the machine and in my case my mug. How ever I do it I will still be aiming for the taste I want and then maintaining it. Some weigh out on the fly as each shot is pulled. I don't and haven't found the need. Might be down to the BE seeming to be volume based and not time. If that's the case you can guess how the DB will eventually be set.

One thing for sure though is that if I can't get the beans I want I have a problem. Emailed Redber and no reply. My email might be in their spam folder. One thing I find odd is the need for them to change the roast. Say some one wanted less oil showing. That's how they will be when they arrive. Couple of weeks later they will all be covered in it. They had plenty of positive reviews on the roast they did do. I may have found another supplier.

John

-


----------



## MildredM

It sounds to me you are managing just fine the way you are. If you enjoy playing, experimenting, the taste in the cup, then I would suggest you are happy with your machine and call an end to a thread which is totally mistifying to others and which isn't really going anywhere.


----------



## iulianato

MildredM said:


> It sounds to me you are managing just fine the way you are. If you enjoy playing, experimenting, the taste in the cup, then I would suggest you are happy with your machine and call an end to a thread which is totally mistifying to others and which isn't really going anywhere.


Totally agree


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## ajohn

Part of the reason for starting the thread and getting into brewing was the 1 to 2 in 30 sec aspect especially if some one wants the taste the bean should have. Sometimes it will sometimes it wont. The machine it's brewed on can make a difference. Also new owners - I've done my 1 to 2 in 30 sec and I don't like it.

One question was interesting - why use a dark roast when a lighter one is easier to handle. I didn't take it as a form of trolling as some one might buy from somewhere that doesn't offer different roast levels of the same bean. Reber do and it probably causes them more problems than ones who don't.

Jocular posts - water off a ducks back.

Oily MM - I very probably achieve the taste the bean should have with one qualification. On the machine I use. If I switch to the Piccino there would be differences what ever I did. That doesn't mean that either of them produce a bad drink but roast level matters and does make a difference to taste - just as anyone would expect I'd hope.








Anyway at this end it's full stop other than drinks via 2 different grinders - can't do that at the moment due to lack of suitable beans.

Rather a lot of reads of the thread dropping off anyway.







A high read rate wasn't my aim but at least it livened the place up a bit.

John

-


----------



## MWJB

ajohn said:


> Part of the reason for starting the thread and getting into brewing was the 1 to 2 in 30 sec aspect especially if some one wants the taste the bean should have. Sometimes it will sometimes it wont. The machine it's brewed on can make a difference. Also new owners - I've done my 1 to 2 in 30 sec and I don't like it.


Straw man.

But you haven't helped demystify or demonstrate an alternative to your concocted consensus method either.

You also haven't been receptive to other poster's comments or ideas, you seem to be on permanent transmit. This is fine, but perhaps a blog is a better platform for broadcasting than a discussion forum.


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## MildredM

ajohn said:


> A high read rate wasn't my aim but at least it livened the place up a bit.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Oh, you thought the forum needed livening up. I would have called it attention seeking.


----------



## Chap-a-chino

MWJB said:


> perhaps a blog is a better platform for broadcasting than a discussion forum.


either that or a support group.


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## 4085

Last time I am saying this......if you do not know your starting point, then you cannot know anything else with accuracy.... @ajohn......I doubt that you have my experience with oily beans, having drunk very little but for years....now, either I am getting it wrong or you are.....as opposed to writing a few thousand words in which you normally contradict yourself in the first sentence, for example

I haven't found any need to weigh out other than as a check as to what it is at some point

Why on earth would you feel the need to check this, if not to give you a point of reference?


----------



## ajohn

I've fitted an IMS woven Gaggia shower plate to it. GA 35WM. Fits well. Reason - I had noticed that any time grounds finished up on the Sage part after the portafilter is removed there would also be some behind it. Have that happen a few times and it was best to remove and clean it.

Early days but it looks like a useful change. It seems to often get a trace of grinds attached to it but so far nothing behind it - not that many shots though. It takes up a touch more space than the Sage one so that has messed up my fill heights a bit. Overfilling a touch is a decent test for it. Also had a few pucks that just fell out of the portafilter - no mess and a tidy puck. This is much more like how my BE could behave if needed.

It also seems to help get more even showers portafilter off but as would be expected not perfect just more spread out.

John

-


----------



## Mrboots2u

ajohn said:


> .
> 
> It also seems to help get more even showers portafilter off but as would be expected not perfect just more spread out.
> 
> John
> 
> -


This sentence makes little sense. What are you trying to say?


----------



## mctrials23

I think he is saying that with the new screen there is a more even distribution of the water coming from the shower screen when you look at it without the portafilter inserted.


----------



## ajohn

mctrials23 said:


> I think he is saying that with the new screen there is a more even distribution of the water coming from the shower screen when you look at it without the portafilter inserted.


That is utterly amazing - it states what I stated other than it doesn't produce a dead even shower but what it does produce is somewhat closer compared with what the sage one usually produces.

I'm sure mr boots realises that as well and the same to many other comments in this thread from various people.

John

-


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## urbanbumpkin

Interesting. So from what you're saying you think you get better water dispersion from the IMS screen?

Can you do a video clip of this screen and the stock Sage one?


----------



## igm45

urbanbumpkin said:


> Interesting. So from what you're saying you think you get better water dispersion from the IMS screen?
> 
> Can you do a video clip of this screen and the stock Sage one?


I definitely get better dispersion from my ims shower.

In the cup no difference.

Only benefit imo is that its easier to clean.


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## urbanbumpkin

igm45 said:


> I definitely get better dispersion from my ims shower.
> 
> In the cup no difference.


Brilliant, that was my next question.

Interesting though.


----------



## ajohn

The Sage one uses filter basket type perforations so hole size is likely to be 300um and that is just how they look - covered with the same perforations as a filter basket, dished but flatten when fitted. This IMS is woven to give 35um perforations for Gaggia machines. I tried the other one IMS do for Gaggia and for some reason it didn't fit so well.

This the one that didn't fit so well

https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/en/gb/IMS-Gaggia-Precision-Shower-Screen-%C3%B8-55mm---GA200IM/m-2010.aspx

And this is the one that does.

https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/en/IMS-Woven-Shower-Plate-Gaggia-55mm/m-2026.aspx

Both like the Sage use an M5 fixing screw. The Sage one is on this page but to be honest I can only think of one reason why some one would want one, I have said I don't do videos. A request for a photo would make more sense.

https://sageappliances.co.uk/collections/BES920UK-parts?page=2

John

-


----------



## ajohn

I've had a number of nice dry pucks now that just more or less fall out into the knock box leaving next to nothing behind. I'm using a Fracino 12g baskt with circa 15 odd grams in it. The rim of the shower filter is thicker than the sage one so currently there is an impression of that on the puck. More or less max fill height. Haven't tried lower ones yet.







I want to continue enjoying my drink for a while set just as things currently are. Managed the same on 2 entirely different beans.

John

-


----------



## coffee3253

I'm keen to get one of these!


----------



## coffee3253

anyone know where you can get the lifetime guarantee?


----------



## Dylan

There is no such thing. The lake land garuntee is a bit like EU warranty law in that products they sell should last a 'reasonable' amount of time with no specific end date to this.

Basically, if the machine breaks down and its more likely to be a manufacturing fault rather than typical wear and tear then Lakeland might repair it for you, regardless of when it happens. Obviously the older it is the more likely it becomes that it is just typical wear and tear.

It's all a bit wishy washy but reports from people who have dealt with the lakeland guarantee are mostly positive.


----------



## ashcroc

Dylan said:


> There is no such thing. The lake land garuntee is a bit like EU warranty law in that products they sell should last a 'reasonable' amount of time with no specific end date to this.
> 
> Basically, if the machine breaks down and its more likely to be a manufacturing fault rather than typical wear and tear then Lakeland might repair it for you, regardless of when it happens. Obviously the older it is the more likely it becomes that it is just typical wear and tear.
> 
> It's all a bit wishy washy but reports from people who have dealt with the lakeland guarantee are mostly positive.


Unfortunately Lakeland changed their guarantee a couple years ago & now it's only 3 years.


----------

