# Milk is ruining the flavour of my espresso



## dyfrigj (Feb 3, 2021)

I bought a Sage Barista Express at Christmas, and have been playing around with it for a couple of months now. So far, I have managed to get a decent espresso out of it - roughly 1:2 ratio, over 30 seconds, giving me a well-balanced shot.......until I add milk.

When I drink coffee out, my preference is for a cortado. So with the Sage BE I've been steaming a little bit of milk at the end just to add to my shot. The problem is that this seems to totally ruin the flavour of the coffee. What is, by itself, a lovely espresso becomes a really one-dimensional, bitter drink as soon as I add a dash of steamed milk.

Any ideas as to why this is happening? I'm using the steaming jug that came with the machine, heating up a small amount until the bottom of the jug feels hot to the touch. I swirl it as I go, and the texture seems fine - good microfoam with no large bubbles. What might I be doing wrong?


----------



## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

What temperature are you getting the milk up to?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Some beans are better at espresso than they are at milk drinks. Tell us what beans you are using. As a rule of thumb, and this is just my thumb, if I am drinking milk based I like a nice blend, but if drink espresso often prefer single origin


----------



## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

I'm sorry I don't know the answer, but I have exactly the same problem with milk based drinks and these words describe it exactly - nice espresso becoming bitter and one-dimensional when adding milk. I have tried cortado and 5oz flat white using a dark roast blend but they taste like really strong cheap instant coffee with a bit of milk. I don't often drink milk based, more of a treat really, so haven't had much chance to experiment. I'm searching for that smooth sweetness you get from a coffee shop. Hopefully someone will have a clue.... 🤷‍♀️


----------



## dyfrigj (Feb 3, 2021)

I've been using Resolute beans from Origin, and as I say the espresso itself is great. The beans are a blend, and the batch I'm currently using was roasted on the 12th of February, so they're fresh.

I don't have a proper thermometer, so I don't know about the temprature. The milk jug that comes with the Sage BE has a temprature indicator on the side, but it doesn't really work. I'm heating the milk until the bottom of the jug feels hot to the touch, but I have tried to stop steaming it sooner, just to see if the taste is caused by the milk being scalded. I ended up drinking a lukewarm cortado yesterday, which - combined with the bitterness - was as horrible as it sounds.

What I'm after, like Emily, is the natural sweetness that comes from steamed milk in a decent coffee shop. I justified paying for a decent coffee machine at Christmas, because I didn't imagine that I'd be visiting many cafes over the coming year. I'm happy that I managed to make a decent espresso with it, but frustrated that I'm not able to make a decent cortado or flat white.


----------



## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Do you use skimmed, semi or full fat? Many of the shops use full fat for sweetness.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Steam your milk , taste it on its own

Well steamed milk at the right temperature should be sweet , if it isn't then its more than likely too hot.

There is a minimum that a jug can hold to steam effectively and I suspect you do not have enough milk in there .

This means that you may need to think about if you are going to steam more milk than you need for a small drink or get a 150 ml or smaller pitcher to use.


----------



## dyfrigj (Feb 3, 2021)

I've been using semi-skimmed, so that might the problem. I'll have a go at using full fat, and steaming the milk on its own. Thanks everyone.


----------



## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

I think one of the flags here is that a good espresso is tasting "bitter" after the addition of milk. That is peculiar, and I think @Mrboots2u has probably got all of the suggestions you need.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dyfrigj said:


> I've been using semi-skimmed, so that might the problem. I'll have a go at using full fat, and steaming the milk on its own. Thanks everyone.


 Although not as creamy , semi skimmed steamed to a reasonable heat should not be bitter .

Just out of interest where are you cortardo's normally from


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Although not as creamy , semi skimmed steamed to a reasonable heat should not be bitter .


 And remember, if you overheat milk it will burn and develop bitter notes.


----------



## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

@Mrboots2uhas hit everything right on the head. You really need a barista thermometer to measure the temp of your milk. Too low and your milk is just plain milk but hot. Too high and it is burnt adding bitter flavours. Just right and the milk will be so sweet it will taste like you have added sugar. Until you have enough experience a thermometer is vital to hit the sweet spot.


----------



## dyfrigj (Feb 3, 2021)

filthynines said:


> I think one of the flags here is that a good espresso is tasting "bitter" after the addition of milk. That is peculiar, and I think @Mrboots2u has probably got all of the suggestions you need.


 When I brew the espresso by itself, it's well-balanced. So there's some bitterness, as you'd expect from any coffee, but there are also sweeter elements to the taste. What happens when I add the milk is that this balance is lost. It's just the bitterness that comes through, and it's really one-dimensional. I appreciate that introducing milk into coffee will neutralise some of the acidity, so there's a chance of losing some of the sweetness. I've tried grinding finer etc., but that ruins the espresso itself - which is why I thought that this has something to do with how I'm steaming the milk.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Correctly micro-foamed milk is sweet. It is also acidic so it can't neutralise any acidity in the coffee. Are you measuring your milk's temp as you steam? Have you tried adding differing amounts of foamed milk to your espresso to see what difference this makes?


----------



## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

I don't think this will add anything but I have noticed that when I make an espresso for a latte I stir it and have a sip to check its alright but if I then use that shot straight after for a latte immediately after having that really intense sip of espresso then it can seem "lacking". When I make a latte without trying the espresso or have a sip of water in between to cleanse the palate, then I do appreciate the flavour of the latte much more. Also Cravendale full fat is my weekend treat and that tastes so much sweeter to me than many other milks.


----------



## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

dyfrigj said:


> a lovely espresso becomes a really one-dimensional, bitter drink as soon as I add a dash of steamed milk.


 I am not sure I understand how diluting a (bitter) coffee with (sweet) milk adds bitterness to the final drink. For me it's always the other way around: the milk drink is sweeter and less bitter than the coffee it is made with. Are you sure you are not confusing coffee with milk? 🤣

Seriously though, as others said - taste the milk. It should be sweet, and it should make the coffee less bitter, not more.


----------



## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

dyfrigj said:


> I've been using Resolute beans from Origin, and as I say the espresso itself is great. The beans are a blend, and the batch I'm currently using was roasted on the 12th of February, so they're fresh.
> 
> I don't have a proper thermometer, so I don't know about the temprature. The milk jug that comes with the Sage BE has a temprature indicator on the side, but it doesn't really work. I'm heating the milk until the bottom of the jug feels hot to the touch, but I have tried to stop steaming it sooner, just to see if the taste is caused by the milk being scalded. I ended up drinking a lukewarm cortado yesterday, which - combined with the bitterness - was as horrible as it sounds.
> 
> What I'm after, like Emily, is the natural sweetness that comes from steamed milk in a decent coffee shop. I justified paying for a decent coffee machine at Christmas, because I didn't imagine that I'd be visiting many cafes over the coming year. I'm happy that I managed to make a decent espresso with it, but frustrated that I'm not able to make a decent cortado or flat white.


 Really suggest getting a thermometer and steaming the milk to 65 degC. I used to think I could tell with my hand, but it turned out 'too hot' for my hand is only 45 degC, so I wasn't getting the sweetness from the milk.


----------



## dyfrigj (Feb 3, 2021)

Thanks everyone. Have ordered a thermometer, and will report back once I've given that a go.


----------



## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

dyfrigj said:


> Thanks everyone. Have ordered a thermometer, and will report back once I've given that a go.


 Please let me know how you are getting on! I made a cappuccino today and it was vile - milk was a disaster (really thought I had cracked texturing/temperature thing with milk but obvs not) and the whole thing was too hot and bitter. It's quite disheartening sometimes ☹ If you have any success, I would be interested to know what worked!


----------



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Emily said:


> Please let me know how you are getting on! I made a cappuccino today and it was vile - milk was a disaster (really thought I had cracked texturing/temperature thing with milk but obvs not) and the whole thing was too hot and bitter. It's quite disheartening sometimes ☹ If you have any success, I would be interested to know what worked!


 Sounds like you need a thermometer to me. Milk that has become too hot is not nice!


----------



## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Sounds like you need a thermometer to me. Milk that has become too hot is not nice!


 Yes I have actually got one, but I thought I could manage without it and perhaps not 😂


----------



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Emily said:


> Yes I have actually got one, but I thought I could manage without it and perhaps not 😂


 Use it for a while but still keep your hand on the side of the jug. You will soon train yourself to do it by feel alone


----------



## EmmaC (Jan 17, 2021)

I am hopeless when it comes to using my hand to gauge the temp - 65 degree milk is way too hot for me. It's thermometer all the way, or we just get tepid milk


----------



## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

EmmaC said:


> I am hopeless when it comes to using my hand to gauge the temp - 65 degree milk is way too hot for me. It's thermometer all the way, or we just get tepid milk


 I'm the same. I don't understand how anyone can keep their hand on the jug until 65 degrees. I use strip thermometers on my milk jugs.


----------



## Wha burst the ba (Jun 20, 2020)

As a short fix, microwave!!!
Weigh milk and blast for 40 seconds. Try cortado. Try 50 seconds and adjust if milk to hot/cold. Just a thought if overheating is problem!!! I alwss as us thought cortado was warmed milk not steamed. Just a though


----------



## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

Ok, so this is a long shot.... but....

Do you stir your crema into your espresso when you drink it straight up?

Do you stir your crema into your espresso when you make a milk drink?

I ask because the though popped into my head of how my wife drinks a coffee which I find somewhat frustrating (even though it is none of my buisness, I suppose marriage will do that to you)...

Whenever my wife drinks a coffee, latte for example, she will slurp the 'foam' off the top almost immediately. Before 1/4 of the drink is gone all the foam will be gone. I will have an identical drink but I will still have some of said foam at the end of my drink and will end up slurping it from the bottom of the cup.

Point being, if you stir your straight up espresso you blend the bitter crema into the shot and the bitterness is balanced throughout the espress drink. If you come to make a milk based drink and do not stir your espresso and are also a premature foam slurperr like my wife you likely will end up with a mouthful of not so great bitter crema at the start of your milk drink which will likely taint the drink from there on out.

Just another angle to look at this from in case the 'burnt milk' theory ends up not being the culprit.


----------



## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

@dyfrigj Don't know if this is any help. I heated my milk in a pan today (easier to control the temperature) till it was 65 degrees so just scalded but not boiling then textured with a milk frother rather than using the steam wand. Milk was perfect temp and nice and sweet. I also increased the milk to coffee ratio a little which helped. Result was nicer.


----------



## dyfrigj (Feb 3, 2021)

I bought a thermometer, and filled the milk jug up a bit more than needed. Got it to 65 degrees after a couple of goes, and this seems to have done the trick - although I'm throwing some milk away unused.

Thanks everyone for your help.


----------



## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

No need to throw the milk away. I just put it in a jug in the fridge and reuse it for cooking or feed it to the rest of the family in cups of tea 😂


----------

