# Espresso coming out very pale



## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

After just receiving my Iberital MC2 I've been trying to get a shot out of my Gaggia Classic, the problem is that it takes a good 5 seconds for the espresso to start pouring, but when it does it comes out incredibly fast and pale.

Not quite sure how to describe it but heres a photo of the monstrosities coming out of the machine. Admittedly this was a few minutes after it was poured, but even so you get my point I hope.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Are you using the pressurised basket with the plastic widget in the bottom of the portafilter (under the basket)? If so, this could account for your extraction problems. You should be getting approx 1.5-2.0 fl oz in 27 secs with a dose weight of approx 14-16 grms. If you are using the pressurised basket recommend binning it and getting a stock double basket.


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

What did you use before the MC2? I'd think your grind isn't fine enough based on your description.


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## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

Just got preground stuff from hasbean and jamesgourmet.

I was using the pressurized basket but I also picked up a VST basket with the grinder because I heard they make a massive difference. (and learning curve apparently.)

After further inspection I can see theres a ton of channeling happening - tried stirring with a needle to see if that helped and nada, any more tips?


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

What tamper are you using?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

VSTs do require a bit more attention to detail but worth the effort IMO. Try grinding a bit finer and perhaps reduce the dose a bit to begin with until you clear the channeling problem. I had exactly the same problem when I moved from a stock basket to VST and nearly binned the VST but I persevered and got it sorted. Also, don't tamp too hard especially if going finer on the grind and try to be consistent shot to shot (tamp pressure-wise). If you are, *don't* apply any real pressure when twisting at the end of your tamp. OK to twist to smooth off surface but applying pressure whilst doing this can cause problems.


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## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

I'm using this one.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Lets see a video of your technique from grinding to espresso. Then we might be able to offer some pointers.

It almost looks like you've got milk in them already?


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## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

Don't think I'll be able to do a video but I'll take photos, see if that helps.

Didn't imagine I'd need this much troubleshooting to get it right, I figured it'd be like when I was using the pressurized basket but better!

EDIT Photos:

Freshly Ground










Leveled and attempted declumping:










Tamped:










Pouring:


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

Fast pour tends to suggest that the grind is too coarse as previously mentioned. At first glance that looks like a whole lot of crema in the shot glass but I agree with Chimpsinties, it seems like there's milk, or something white, already in it. I don't suppose it's possible that some descaler or Puly Caff has been left in the tubes somewhere is there?

Steve.


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## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

Steve_S_T said:


> Fast pour tends to suggest that the grind is too coarse as previously mentioned. At first glance that looks like a whole lot of crema in the shot glass but I agree with Chimpsinties, it seems like there's milk, or something white, already in it. I don't suppose it's possible that some descaler or Puly Caff has been left in the tubes somewhere is there?
> 
> Steve.


Never used a descaler, and I've only had it since March 13, bought new.

And for reference, its an 18g VST basket.

Rest of photos:


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

Can you get a shot of the puck after it's been knocked out? Those holes in the coffee are a bit unusual in my experience, and it looks as though the coffee might have got a bit sludgy during the shot pull (it also looks slightly concave which is also not something I've experienced).

Steve.


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## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

Steve_S_T said:


> Can you get a shot of the puck after it's been knocked out? Those holes in the coffee are a bit unusual in my experience, and it looks as though the coffee might have got a bit sludgy during the shot pull (it also looks slightly concave which is also not something I've experienced).
> 
> Steve.


Already binned it now but, what solutions are there to what you can see now?


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

Just seen your post with the link to the description of your tamper - that explains the concave puck.

Steve.


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

Did the puck come out in one solid lump?

Judging by the photos you've posted and your descriptions you seem to be doing everything right, and I can't for the life of me see what is causing that colouring of the shot. If the machine is new then it seems to me that the only things that can create that effect would be your water or the coffee itself. If the water in the tank is clear and comes through the grouphead clear (if you drain some off into a glass) then we appear to be left with the coffee or the grinder - you haven't recently cleaned the burrs or run something other than coffee through that have you?

Steve.


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## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

Top half came out first, and the grinder is new today.

I'll check the water in a bit, but I run filtered water from a brita jug.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Grind not fine enough , what dose are using ? 18g?


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## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Grind not fine enough , what dose are using ? 18g?


filling the 18g vst so anywhere between 17-19g from what I gather


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

You've got huge channeling going on there. Try going down to 14grms and adjust your grind until you get an extraction in 27 secs plus or minus a couple of seconds. If this works, you can increase your dose gradually adjusting the grind as necessary. Are you getting similar results with a stock basket or is it just with the VST?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Naphta said:


> filling the 18g vst so anywhere between 17-19g* from what I gather*


You might want to weigh it to see if in the range. VSTs are dose-specific.

If you are below 17 add more , if in range then grind finer


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## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

It doesnt seem right that the coffee takes 15 seconds to flow after flipping the switch


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Naphta said:


> It doesnt seem right that the coffee takes 15 seconds to flow after flipping the switch


The other thing if this is the case is that it is ground too fine. Have you done the OPV adjustment? If not then there will be too much pressure which rather than just choking the machine is fracturing the puck hence the channelling clearly shown in the extraction picture.


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Id do about 6 half turns toward 'fine' on your MC2 grind setting knob and test from there.


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## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

forzajuve said:


> The other thing if this is the case is that it is ground too fine. Have you done the OPV adjustment? If not then there will be too much pressure which rather than just choking the machine is fracturing the puck hence the channelling clearly shown in the extraction picture.


I havent, it's definitely on my to-do list though.


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

I still think the channeling it just lack of fine grind and firm enough tamp. As I said, it's easiest to test with 6 turns and make decisions from there.. You'll waste a tonne of beans otherwise..


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Naphta said:


> It doesnt seem right that the coffee takes 15 seconds to flow after flipping the switch


Your OP said ''the problem is that it takes a good 5 seconds for the espresso to start pouring'

Thats a huge variance


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## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Your OP said ''the problem is that it takes a good 5 seconds for the espresso to start pouring'
> 
> Thats a huge variance


I actually counted, it was much larger than I thought.

Tried doing it with the pressurized basket, the machine was just completely choked, so I'm guessing the grind is far to fine atm.


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

I don't wish to come across condescending or facetious but 5 seconds and 15 seconds is a hell of a long time in the world of espresso. If you're that far out in judging figures, I fear it will be a long time before you get it right. I think you need to study the multitude of guides on how to brew on youtube. Have a benchmark and then come back with questions; as it's beginning to sound like you're not even at the stage of keeping variables constant and using elimination technique to diagnose your problem and that will make it very difficult for us to help you at this stage.

Again, this would sound much less flippant in voice than text, so don't take it the wrong way







I come in peace lol


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

Naphta said:


> Tried doing it with the pressurized basket, the machine was just completely choked, so I'm guessing the grind is far to fine atm.


Looking at the picture after you'd tamped it looks very smooth and I thought you'd gone too fine. It'll be worth the effort in the end


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## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

poona said:


> I don't wish to come across condescending or facetious but 5 seconds and 15 seconds is a hell of a long time in the world of espresso. If you're that far out in judging figures, I fear it will be a long time before you get it right. I think you need to study the multitude of guides on how to brew on youtube. Have a benchmark and then come back with questions; as it's beginning to sound like you're not even at the stage of keeping variables constant and using elimination technique to diagnose your problem and that will make it very difficult for us to help you at this stage.
> 
> Again, this would sound much less flippant in voice than text, so don't take it the wrong way
> 
> ...


Oh no I see your point completely, I did adjust the grind finer after, so I imagine I was around 4 seconds off which when I wasn't attempting to time isn't THAT bad.

I didn't realize until today how important the time before it started pouring was so important.


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## gtanny (Jan 6, 2013)

what is the water coming out like if you just put in an empty basket, it seems a very odd colour to be coming out.

while your setting up i found use bathroom scales to keep a consistent tamp and start too fine and choke your machine then work your way back to finer.

what beans are you using?

the only thing i have experienced like this myself is a far to coarse a grind and tamping far too hard, it takes its time to soak through the coffee but once it gets through the puck loses all rigidity and falls apart allowing the water to pour through (the colour was never that bad!)


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Naphta said:


> I didn't realize until today how important the time before it started pouring was so important.


Timing, weighing, adjusting. All key elements to satisfying your taste buds









Have a search on youtube for 'Seattle Coffee Gear' and watch some of their videos. It helped me hugely when I first started out. I've been doing it since last July and I'm still learning!


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Having just looked at your pics from the beginning of say there are two problems going on here. You're not putting enough coffee in the basket and its ground too fine. It looks too smooth once tamped to me. When I've ground into the 18g vst, declumped a bit then levelled its basically level with the top of the basket. Yours looks far too low. Also, don't tamp the life out of it. Watch some videos of the pros or even Kat & Gail. You'll see they hardly put any pressure when they tamp.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Grind is irrevent until dose is fixed and correct for the basket. For a correct flow rate for VST 18g you need approx 17-19g. I should also imagine its quite a few turns difference on the MC2 between 17g and 19g.


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## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

Could it be possible right now that the machine is being choked completely its just that the coffee eventually fractures due to the pressure & lack of place to go.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

If your dose is way too low and the grind way too fine to compensate then yes its not impossible. The hole-size in the VST is calabrated for >17g dose and

Once again weigh your dose and report back


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## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> If your dose is way too low and the grind way too fine to compensate then yes its not impossible. The hole-size in the VST is calabrated for >17g dose and
> 
> Once again weigh your dose and report back


With 18g on my scales its still the same, but they aren't 0.1g scales, so I'm unsure on how accurate.

After dialing down (work in progress) I'm getting closer to a steady flow relatively quickly. I'm also tamping lighter, which from what I gather should help this process.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Great







anywhere around 18g and if your grind is roughly ok you get get something resembling espresso. Its then a case of practising over and over again to refine technique


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

You see the difference between yours and mine. Yours looks like talc whereas mine looks like fluffy salt.

That's 18g in an 18g vst.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

Just going to pick up some cheap beans until I've gotten the grind right. Will report back tomorrow hopefully!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Naphta said:


> Just going to pick up some cheap beans until I've gotten the grind right. Will report back tomorrow hopefully!


Youll only need to redial in


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

The cheap beans will most definitely need different grind setting and will probably not be anywhere you need to be for your 'good beans'. I would stick with your beans, order more of the same and do a good 8 half turns toward you (anti clockwise) and see how close you are from there. I know this as I had a MC2.


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## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

Couldn't get any cheap beans anyways, just started with this. After a couple of radical adjustments I got something well within drinkable, I didn't time it but from the look at the "streams" coming out it looked quite close to how it should and produced quite a tasty espresso, zero bitterness.

I'll do another one later today and time it and see where I need to go from there.

EDIT:

1st attempt, 40 seconds from switch to 1oz (aka ristretto if I recall?)

Made a little bit coarser

2nd attempt, 18 seconds from flip to 2oz (far too fast)

Just adjusted my grind 3 half turns to the finer side, will report back soon.

EDIT2 - Photos:

Bit blurry but here we go, poured too fast again, continuing the adjustments.


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## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

Rest of photos


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Well it certainly looks a better colour. Don't worry too much about going over the time. Some of my best tasting shots have been long on time









Glad you got it somewhere near right


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## Naphta (Apr 5, 2013)

Indeed, it was definitely it being ridiculously too fine!


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