# Boiling Bianca?



## mctaff (Nov 16, 2019)

No, its not a dodgy Eastenders episode from the 90's... but I'm getting some weird behaviour from my Bianca, which I'm attributing to the water boiling at the grouphead.

Basically it's spitting and bubbling sometimes as the water comes out. Not often, but regularly.

Its a fairly new machine and I've not changed any factory settings, so the water temperature is whatever they've set it to.

Any ideas?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

so.. Are you saying that it didn't used to be like that and now it is? What water do you use?


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## mctaff (Nov 16, 2019)

It's been doing it for a while, so possibly/probably since I got it (September).

Filtered tap water using a decent filter.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Check out your advanced settings and detail them on here.. it's also worth mentioning the brew temperature you have it set to....which helps us make sense of the advanced settings. Be very careful not to factory reset it (gicars little joke).


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Is this not long after you switch the machine on? Doesn't the Bianca have some super overheating cycle to start off with to get the group up to temp quickly?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Is this not long after you switch the machine on? Doesn't the Bianca have some super overheating cycle to start off with to get the group up to temp quickly?


 It does...but I still think you need to wait for 30-35m...or it's too hot.


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## mctaff (Nov 16, 2019)

I tend to wait 30 mins, and pretty sure its done it after that.

Excuse my ignorance, but how do I get at the detailed settings? No idea what I've done with the manual... and their website doesn't seem to have a link to the manual


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## mctaff (Nov 16, 2019)

Ok figured it out... if these are the settings you mean?!

95 degrees coffee boiler

steam boiler on @125

pre inf off

stand by off


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

No, your advanced pid settings determine proportional, integral and derivative settings. It's easy to factory reset if you start the machine up holding the wrong button down, or hold them down while powered up....one of the two. It's easy to do if you're just trying to alter settings or get into the advanced settings to change them or switch an element off for first fill. But maybe that's been disabled on the bianca if you're looking at those options in an advanced menu?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I am afraid all the Bianca stuff is in the Bella Barista guide, however the LCC advanced settings are accessed in the same way as for the Elizabeth (even though Elizabeth has some different settings). read it all when you get a chance.

https://sway.office.com/S5J4d9Jp4Y9LdVFx

If we know what your advanced settings are we can see if there is an offset that's set wrong or something. Below is a video on the Elizabeth, but the entry into advanced settings is the same.


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## mctaff (Nov 16, 2019)

I'm not sure what the advanced menu is, or how to access it.... it's not mentioned in the manual

Beginner instructions welcome!


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## mctaff (Nov 16, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> I am afraid all the Bianca stuff is in the Bella Barista guide, however the LCC advanced settings are accessed in the same way as for the Elizabeth (even though Elizabeth has some different settings. read it all when you get a chance.
> 
> https://sway.office.com/S5J4d9Jp4Y9LdVFx


 Ok I bought it from Bella... will try and find their booklet then...

or perhaps your link will assist, thanks


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## mctaff (Nov 16, 2019)

Ok... before I reset the whole thing by accident... the important bit in red in the linked instructions is slightly unclear

The section in red says if I don't press the minus button it will factory reset.

Does this mean if I only press the plus whilst turning on it will factory reset?

If so, it would be much clearer (for me at least) if that's what it said... if not, any idea what it does mean?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

mctaff said:


> Ok... before I reset the whole thing by accident... the important bit in red in the linked instructions is slightly unclear
> 
> 1. The section in red says if I don't press the minus button it will factory reset.
> 
> ...


 Yes, in the olden days the factory settings were my setting, but that was 2 years ago and they may not do that now since the last few software updates. I don't know. Gicars sick little joke was to factory reset, you only have to hold in the + button and power it on. To get into advanced settings you have to hold in both buttons and power it on.

Who ever programmed it, obviously didn't like customers, or really thought it wasn't likely that a customer might only have the + button fully pressed in...and accidentally factory reset the board....losing any personalised settings.

My way round would be to have the + button held in take you to advanced settings when you power on, and to factory reset, you would have to hold both in...but I'm old and stupid.


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## mctaff (Nov 16, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> Yes, in the olden days the factory settings were my setting, but that was 2 years ago and they may not do that now since the last few software updates. I don't know. Gicars sick little joke was to factory reset, you only have to hold in the + button and power it on. To get into advanced settings you have to hold in both buttons and power it on.
> 
> Who ever programmed it, obviously didn't like customers, or really thought it wasn't likely that a customer might only have the + button fully pressed in...and accidentally factory reset the board....losing any personalised settings.
> 
> My way round would be to have the + button held in take you to advanced settings when you power on, and to factory reset, you would have to hold both in...but I'm old and stupid.


 Exactly... plus should be settings... both should reset

Then if you're a dumbass like me you won't mess it up by accident!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

mctaff said:


> Exactly... plus should be settings... both should reset
> 
> Then if you're a dumbass like me you won't mess it up by accident!


 If there's a Host 21 Milan......I don't know if Gicar will be there...but if they are

"I don't know why you (Gicar) did it. If you are looking for money, I can tell you I don't have money but what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a PITA for people like you. If you change the factory reset sequence to + and - held in, and you change advanced settings to + held in while you power on, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you, but if you don't, I will look for you, I will find you and I will try and shame you into doing it".


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## mctaff (Nov 16, 2019)

ok, after much trepidation I've got hold of the detailed settings, without resetting the unit...



KPc 0.8


KIc 0.04


KDc 12.0


Bc 15


KPs 20.0


KIs 0.00


KDs 20.0


Bs 0


Ec 10


Es 0


TR 0


ToT .


I hope someone speaks Lelit, and can translate!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I can speak Lelit 🙂

At a glance, they are default settings.

Change your TR to 1, so the display will show you the right, actual temperature rather than the set temp. Report back. I have a feeling those settings are causing an overshoot, big time (On the Elizabeth, the default settings overshoot the target temp by 6C!)

Also, check DavecUK's review and see if there are recommended settings. Use those, for sure!


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## mctaff (Nov 16, 2019)

Ok that's helpful, thanks


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## mctaff (Nov 16, 2019)

.... but quickly back down to the 90's though


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

mctaff said:


> .... but quickly back down to the 90's though


 As mentioned above - the machine applies a lot of heat during start up and then cools down in order to warm the group fast. Question: Do you have your machine on stand-by by any chance? I'm wondering if it's doing the warm up routine as soon as it wakes up again.

ps: That "progress bar" under the temperature indicates it's warming up.


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## mctaff (Nov 16, 2019)

no, I grabbed that setting in the earlier post, it's set to off.

it settled down to 96 after 10 mins (still being warm from earlier), although set for 95, so I've dropped the setting by 1.

at least I can now see the actual boiler temp, so I'll be able to see if it starts getting too hot - thanks


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@mctaff



*KPc 0.4*


KIc 0.04


KDc 12.0


Bc 15


KPs 20.0


KIs 0.00


KDs 20.0


Bs 0


Ec 10 (brew temp offset)


Es 0


TR 0 (on my machine displays the actual brew temp and not the target)


ToT .


I would recommend you set a brew temp of 93 as optimal for most coffees...94 is on the hottish side. Reduce KPc to 0.4


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

mctaff said:


> it settled down to 96 after 10 mins (still being warm from earlier), although set for 95, so I've dropped the setting by 1.


 Now my friend, the fun begins! What you are seeing is the default PID settings are not great.

I don't know if Dave has recommended settings in his manual, but you could pinch these ones for the Profitec 700 from Clive Coffee and see if it works:

https://clivecoffee.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002824508-PID-Settings-and-Clive-Recommended-Settings

Translated to your machine:



KPc 2.5


KIc 0.02


KDc 8.0


Ec: 14 (suggestion)- This is the offset between the brew boiler and the temperature in the group. It might be that your current value of 10 is too low. Dave might know the right answer here as he knows the machine well.


EDIT: Dave replied to me as I was typing this. Leaving here for reference.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

When setting up PIDs for machines you have to be super careful, It takes me a long time and a lot of temp testing. it also depends on the size/configuration of the thermosyphon, the PID programming, boiler size etc... I don't think those Profitec 700 ones would be suitable at all. The ones he is using are my recommended settings except for KPc, which should be 0.4.


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## mctaff (Nov 16, 2019)

great, will try 93 and 0.4.

what does the KPc setting control?

thanks both for the assistance, much appreciated.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

mctaff said:


> great, will try 93 and 0.4.
> 
> what does the KPc setting control?
> 
> thanks both for the assistance, much appreciated.


 The PID proportional response e.g. the amount of "push" given to get back to the brew temperature setpoint. Larger values can cause overshoots.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

mctaff said:


> what does the KPc setting control?


 This is a very good simple explanation:



> The duty cycle is based on a period and how long the heater is on. So if lets say your coffee heater is on for 1 second and off for 1 second. Your period is 2 seconds and your duty cycle is 50% since it's on for 1 out of the 2 seconds. If your heater is on for 1.5 seconds and off for .5 seconds, your duty cycle would be 1.5/2 (75% Duty cycle).
> 
> The Kp is your proportional. The error (setpoint - actual reading) will get multiplied by your proportional value. The Ki is your integral, this accumulates the error over time and then will essentially increase/ decrease your output more and more over time until the error gets closer to 0. The Kd is your derivative and this basically "predicts" where your going. This counter acts the integral to prevent too large of over shoots.
> 
> ...


 Source: https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/525793/how-do-i-tune-this-pid-for-my-coffee-machine


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## mctaff (Nov 16, 2019)

ok, so the sensitivity of the steering wheel then.

I can see how that could be causing the boiler to go a bit mad and give me boiling water sometimes...


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> The PID proportional response e.g. the amount of "push" given to get back to the brew temperature setpoint. Larger values can cause overshoots.


 Hi Dave,

Does the Vesuvius have the same option?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

John Yossarian said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Does the Vesuvius have the same option?


 Of course...in advanced settings.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Of course...in advanced settings.


 Thanks!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@John Yossarian Theres 3 lots of PID settings, Brew Boiler, Steam Boiler and Gear Pump (don't mess with the gear pump one unless you know what your doing).


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## mctaff (Nov 16, 2019)

just wanted to update you on this

after changing the display to show the actual temp, it's apparent that the boiler temp often hovers at 122 degrees for an extended period before settling down to a usable temperature.

if I pull water through at higher temps it gives the characteristics I was seeing before, so I imagine I was using it before it was ready.

thanks again!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

mctaff said:


> just wanted to update you on this
> 
> after changing the display to show the actual temp, it's apparent that the boiler temp often hovers at 122 degrees for an extended period before settling down to a usable temperature.
> 
> ...


 Yup, using it too early in its fast warm up cycle


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## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> When setting up PIDs for machines you have to be super careful, It takes me a long time and a lot of temp testing. it also depends on the size/configuration of the thermosyphon, the PID programming, boiler size etc... I don't think those Profitec 700 ones would be suitable at all. The ones he is using are my recommended settings except for KPc, which should be 0.4.


 received my bianca today. watched the video. when i hold the + - and switch on the machine it just reset it and shows "preset done" and asks me to load the boiler with water for 30s. has this changed on more recent models?

edit - nevermind figured out i wasn't holding the buttons long enough.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Your prob not holding both buttons. Its a ball ache

Do you have the youtube guide dave made?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Ps now you reset it you need to change the one value back


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## BadBoyR (Dec 25, 2017)

ZwiGGy said:


> received my bianca today. watched the video. when i hold the + - and switch on the machine it just reset it and shows "preset done" and asks me to load the boiler with water for 30s. has this changed on more recent models?


 This is for the advanced settings menu, I just did this recently with mine and it worked first time.


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## BadBoyR (Dec 25, 2017)

Power off the machine.



Keep pressed the "+" and "-" button of the LCC display, and in the same time power on the

machine, when the display will show KPc:0,8 release the buttons.


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