# Sage barista touch problem with extraction



## Aponalto (Mar 1, 2019)

I bough a barista touch and i cant extract coffee at 8-12 seconds. Always extract at 5 seconds. Can someone please send me correct setttings about grind, seconds to grind coffee and what filter do you used double or the singe?


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## Aponalto (Mar 1, 2019)

Aponalto said:


> I bough a barista touch and i cant extract coffee at 8-12 seconds. Always extract at 5 seconds. Can someone please send me correct setttings about grind, seconds to grind coffee and what filter do you used double or the singe?


Can someone send me the settings that have in sage barista touch please?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Aponalto said:


> I bough a barista touch and i cant extract coffee at 8-12 seconds. Always extract at 5 seconds. Can someone please send me correct setttings about grind, seconds to grind coffee and what filter do you used double or the singe?


That wont help. Settings are based on the coffee they are using

What coffee are you using at the moment , in what basket ( single , double ) and how much coffee is goign into the basket ( grams if you can )

how is the coffee stored ?

How much coffee is being extracted in the 8 to 12 seconds ?

What are your settings on the grinder , is it the finest it can go? If not why not ?


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## Aponalto (Mar 1, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> That wont help. Settings are based on the coffee they are using
> 
> What coffee are you using at the moment , in what basket ( single , double ) and how much coffee is goign into the basket ( grams if you can )
> 
> ...


i used double basket and i tried to used 18gr in the basket.

The settings on the grinder when i bought it was at 6. Then i put in in 4 and now at 8.

Always the coffee start to extract at 5 seconds not atmu-12 seconds.

i used number 22 to 12 for finest

Someone can tell me the basic fr make good coffee?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Aponalto said:


> i used double basket and i tried to used 18gr in the basket.
> 
> The settings on the grinder when i bought it was at 6. Then i put in in 4 and now at 8.
> 
> ...


And the coffee is what .

Stale coffee will equal shots


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Please answer the questions , what volume or weight of coffee is being made at its finest setting over what time .

Why are you not going past 12 for a finer setting.


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## Aponalto (Mar 1, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> Please answer the questions , what volume or weight of coffee is being made at its finest setting over what time .
> 
> Why are you not going past 12 for a finer setting.


I used fresh coffee and the weight of coffee i used in the double filter is 18gr.

The grinder settings is right at volume 8?

AlwayS extract coffee at 5-6 seconds. I cant make it extract at 8-12 seconds the machine.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Aponalto said:


> I used fresh coffee and the weight of coffee i used in the double filter is 18gr.
> 
> The grinder settings is right at volume 8?
> 
> AlwayS extract coffee at 5-6 seconds. I cant make it extract at 8-12 seconds the machine.


Sorry i can't help .

Good luck


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I think what Boots is saying, is where are getting your coffee from? When was it roasted? What's its origination?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Did you read the manual ? Your aim initially should be just as it mentions. Adjust the grinder so that the single button produces 30ml approx and the double 60ml. The 30 and 60 can be read as grams. Each of the baskets are likely to need different grinder settings and also different settings when the beans you are using are changed.

It's a tedious process in some ways that we all go through what ever we are using. I'm going to assume that the grinder is the same as the one on the ordinary Barista Express. On that one it's best to start with a setting of 8. The numbers go from 1 to 18 so if yours differ start in the middle. To reduce the output go finer. To increase it go coarser. *ONE STEP CHANGE AT A TIME.* It's no good saying that is way to much coffee out or way to little and making larger changes and that might even break the grinder when adjusting finer. Something Sage should mention. Just be patient and adjust 1 step at a time. There is also a problem when going significantly coarser so best stick to one step at a time.

There are 3 problems left. The amount of coffee in the basket will have an effect on the grinder setting that is needed. Tamping pressure will also effect it. Lastly each time the grinder setting is changed there will be some grinds left in the grinder that were produced by the previous setting. Really those should be disposed of by running the grinder briefly and disposing of a couple of grams of grinds. These Sage grinders don't retain much that comes out next time it's used.

Tamping for a beginner is tricky. Your trying to use an automatic machine so it needs more attention. Best option i found was to strain a little. It's easier to keep it constant that way. Also best to keep it level.








If a bit out which can easily be spotted with the tamper that comes with the machine best option is to strain a little more to correct it. That's better than leaving it as it is.

Sage mention a range of weights that the baskets can hold. About time they did as well. The double 15 to 18g. Part of that is down to their working range but the beans that are used can also make a difference of over a gram. What isn't wanted especially for a beginner is too much or too little in the basket as it will effect the grinder setting - badly in terms of the taste that comes out in the extreme. I always suggest using the razor tool until some one knows what they are doing as it takes this aspect out. It also results in a suitable weight out to set the grinder timer. It will also level the puck but some people have problems with the puck spinning maybe because they are trying to remove too much. It can also be useful when some one tries to set the grinder timer especially when that is giving a touch too much. Your best option initially is to grind manually to achieve circa 18g if that turns out to be what you should be using via the razor tool and add a little bit too much. No point in trying to set the timer when the grinder is being adjusted as the time needed will keep changing.

I'm assuming that the 8 to 12 secs mentioned is from some buffoon on the web and that is when they reckon that flow should start coming out of the portafilter. It wouldn't surprise me that this would need the basket to be significantly over filled. Overfilling and underfilling is best left until some one can actually use the machine.

How consistent the results a button press gives depends on the machine. The straight Express is volumetric but as they don't mention that now may not be any more. The Touch looks like it displays shot time so who knows how that one works. If the machines are volumetric they can with even reasonable grinds preparation produce the same drink over and over like a metronome with very little variation. if time it may be best to use the machine manually like many who weigh the shot as it is being poured or accept the variation.

So when the OP has got the machine to work as intended many people can help change the taste of what comes out.







I'd hope they bear in mind that the OP has paid for a machine with buttons and will want to use it like that. It's still mostly a mater or ratios and a lot easier to maintain if it is a volumetric machine.

John

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## Aponalto (Mar 1, 2019)

Thanks John your comments is helpful.

My grinder is from number 1-10 so at what number you suggest the grinder?

Did you high the temperature of the brew?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

In the middle for the grinder.

I was using an ordinary Barista Express and did up the temperature setting on that for a while but then put it back to 93C as no point.

As I didn't want to warm mugs up I switched to borosilicate ones as they take less heat away. There has been some complaints about temperature on the Touch but people have been trying to measure it. In practice as far as the temperature the coffee sees that is not an easy thing to do without rather expensive specialised equipment. What comes out of the portafilter will be cooler. I've seen figures such as 78C when it hits the mug. I mostly drink americano so shot temperature is swamped by the hot water that is added. Same thing happens with milk drinks but the milk will be cooler.

The touch manual probably mentions heating the portafilter maybe via the hot water outlet. The machine should also be flushed - some water run through to heat internal parts. That can also get a bit of heat in the basket that is being used and also the portafilter. Ideally that should be at circa 80C. I found 3 drinks on the trot would get it up to that region but taste differed on each one. So in my case I fitted an empty pressurised / dual wall basket and ran a shot through that. Then fitted and filled the basket I intended to use. An Amazon extraction tool is helpful.







In fact having bought one I wouldn't be without it. Also good for getting the portafilter seal out when that area is cleaned.

Now while that may sound messy it's quick and easy to do and will get it hot without using much water. If you where using their Dual Boiler or Oracle the portafilter can be left in for 15min and that will get it hot. Wont on the smaller machines. To save the 15mins, much longer than the machine takes to heat up I did the same thing with that.

I did try a dual walled glass mug once - way too fragile. Have to say that these days I tend to leave my coffee to cool before drinking most of it as it's easier to appreciate the taste.

John

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## Twin (Feb 9, 2019)

Hello,

As a former BT owner, with problems in the temperature area, as well as in fact short preinfusion times, - it all came back when I read your post. Mine did as well start the extraction too soon, by Sage's own standards, as in the manual.... in the same time range you are referring to. Though I did get very good results when temperature was right. However, no matter how fine grind was (using the in built grinder) it started to drip in about 6-7,8 seconds, I only ended up choking the shot in the end, with terrible taste as a result.

There are very good advises here, but I advise you to call Sage or your dealer, explaining your findings. Also refer to your advise and trials from fellow members here to support your arguments. I suspect you'll end up with a new machine or a service to the one you have.

It certainly seems like you're doing things right, with both grind settings an using fresh roasted beans.

After having tried, with my skills... on all these Sage machines: Barista Express, Dual Boiler and the Oracle (not the touch version) I have had the best shots on the DB and Barista Express - always with fresh roasted beans. The BT should be as good as the BE, but I suspect faulty ThermoJet and maybe wrong or faulty firmware programming to some BT units.

Regards,

Stig


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The fact that they have changed the grinder setting numbers down to 10 is disturbing but not if there are wheel clicks between each number. No way of knowing what they have changed but all of their grinders apart from one use the same basic mechanism. A large gear that drives the adjustment driven by a smaller one that is rotated to adjust the setting. I'd hope the change isn't just down to software people's / marketing style decimalisation and that they are larger steps. Based in the straight BE 20 would be a better number. = finer steps.

It seems that the buffoon on the web I mentioned is actually the one that wrote the manual. I don't think it's possible to get coffee to flow out as late as they suggest especially on the BE, DTP and BET if all are plumbed up internally in the same fashion. This is more like it should be which strangely enough seems to be what the OP is finding.







It works too as far as the coffee coming out is concerned except it shows the pressure gauge on the BE and over extraction at high pressures which in some ways is bunkum. The theoretical position of the needle should be dead vertical. That corresponds to how most machines work not a range as shown but people do adjust them. Where it gets to depends on the grinds on these Sage machines. The over pressure valve on the BE at least limits at a much higher pressure than many conventional machines. There are certain things about the Dual Boiler that suggest it's intended to be used in the same way but only up to the usual range of brew pressures. 10bar on those and 15 on the smaller machines.









One clue on the BET might be infusion time. I'm pretty sure that to get the delayed start of flow they suggest it would need to be longer than the BE which I think is 10 secs. It might also need to use a lower pump pressure during infusion. The noise the pump makes changes when infusion ends to may be possible to time it.

Another one if some one fancies being manic is the amount of water that goes into the drip tray when a shot is pulled. The 3 way action always puts a certain amount in there but the over pressure valve can as well. So when too much coffee comes out chances are no extra will get in there. Just short of when the pumps stalls and more will if it's the same as the others. Rather a lot compared with the size of the shot in the extreme, always more in my experience.

I'm also wondering which machines are volume based - try to always produce the same shot volume / weight just as many machines in cafe's etc do. They did state this on the web for the BE for a while and then godfather Breville stepped in and they now use a global web site arrangement. If not stated it needn't be fitted. Given other changes over the last few years re spares in particular ....................... I wonder.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Those photos are really misleading arent they .

If a shot starts after 8 seconds and hardly anything actually gets in the cup then it will be under extracted....

You will have used 18g of coffee to make 10 g of espresso = under extracted.....

None of them make any reference to what amount , volume etc finishes up in the cup, so how can anyone tell under and over extraction of you don't know what's being made?

Or are they assuming you hit some target volume each them you pull a shot ? If so in the pics I cant see any reference to that.

In a quick shot you could have 60g come out in 20 seconds, from a small dose that could in theory be over extracted .....

I see post of saying my coffee/machine is wrong coz the flow starts at x when to should start at y and the pressure gauge doesn't exactly go to here.

I suppose they are visual indicators for people that have little confidence in what they are tasting in the cup or understand a decent process for making coffee in the first place.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The pressure gauge on the BE is useful. One










once you have found out about it is a loose indication of when OPV water is going into the drip tray. I soon learnt where the needle needed to be to keep that ummm fairly sane. The other that I found was that some pressure had to be shown during infusion. Also if all ok and tuned the readings shouldn't change - other than from mistakes in prep. Really I suppose the delay before flow is related to pressure during infusion.

I mainly posted the BE tips as the times are reasonable and are the sort of numbers that crop up. 10 secs plus isn't if like the BE as post infusion it can just go straight up to 15 bar. In real terms flow must start before 10 secs.

The numbers in the manual that do make sense are shot volumes and grinds doses. Pity they don't mention that ml can be read as grams. They do say approximate as well. Problem. Many sources on the web scream must use 1 in to 2 out and in 30sec. A bean may be at it's best with twice that out and some might prefer less via shorter time or same time and finer grind.







A lot more complicated than the manual suggests but people need to start somewhere.

Trying to measure brew water temperature without the correct kit isn't really possible and unless the water flow rates are in the region they should be it wont be very accurate anyway. Maybe the best way to check the latest thermothingy is hot water temperature. I'd guess that should be in the high 70's at least. No idea as have never measured it but they will have aimed for some number. Most conventional espresso machines have cup warmers so cold mugs will cool drinks anyway. Maybe something in the 9o's is best for that. I assume it does produce steam.

John

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