# How important is machine to customers?



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

So often now we see reference to the type of machine a coffeeshop uses, as if it is a guarantee of good coffee. They have an Aurelia. That place has an LM. We use a Synesso etc. I realise that it does suggest an interest in speciality standards, but how important do you think it is to have a machine with the latest developments in espresso technology? Aren't barista skills important?


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## Filthy_rich85 (Jan 20, 2011)

I think it's the same as any trade, no matter how good a tool is the person(s) using it must be able to achieve the best from it to accomplish a good result


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

A high end machine/grinder/uberboiler gives me a certain level of confidence that the owners have invested into the shop/bar & subsequently you would assume also invested in the baristas' training equally. Its not a given tho that the end result will be any good. (your experience in St Ali for example differed to mine).

I have had some lovely espresso from Brewtus (1k machine) - I wouldnt call myself an expert by anymeans....equally Laura and I have had some sour dish water from very high machines ujsing SM beans in some London coffee houses i will not snitch on here publicly!

Recently had a very poor cappa from 6/8Kafe, ended up taking it back and got refunded - this wasnt Craig or Joe serving I hasten to add....that was on a Synesso too


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I don't think it matters to me when choosing which cafe to go to but I think my nature as an enthusiast and pure curosity of commercial machines (for an inevitable commercial machine purchase on eBay) always makes me interested to know what is being used.

I think my curosity is based on material desire rather than consumer interest.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Always interested to see what machine is in use, but that is just the geek in me. MUCH more important is it's cleanliness! I make a point of complaining loudly whenever I see a crud encrusted steam wand - even if I am only ordering espresso.

Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Tapatalk


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

CoffeeGeek said:


> *quality branded* machines such as the grinder and espresso machines are what I look out for before purchasing, and most importantly, cleanliness! A Barista should show flair when producing your cuppa!


Interesting. So if a coffeeshop isn't using the cool machines does it make you think the coffee won't be as good?


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## sicknote (Sep 5, 2011)

I reckon that less than 1% of coffee drinkers are interested in the machinery that makes their drink. Infact I would go as far as to say 90% of coffee drinkers couldn't name a machine manufacturer.

Do the big name coffee outlets have skilled baristas? If so, is the poor quality of their coffee purely down to the bean?

If you think the big name coffee outlets employ unskilled baristas then barista skills are not important to the majority of coffee drinkers.

Specialty coffee drinkers will of course be different from the majority but for me, neither the machine or barista has any impact on where I drink coffee......I feel its mostly about the bean/roast.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> A high end machine/grinder/uberboiler gives me a certain level of confidence that the owners have invested into the shop/bar & subsequently you would assume also invested in the baristas' training equally.


I do see the correlation, but do you think there's a converse argument? E.g. A top end machine doesn't require the barista to understand and manipulate its brew temperature capabilities... just to push a button to set the temperature. Less skill?


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

As vintage said, it's the geek in me that wants to see a synesso or slayer behind the bar! In my opinion you can separate people into two main groups:

- Those of use who know enough about coffee to realise the Barista and the beans are 99% of how the drink tastes in a cafe setup and therefore aren't too fussed about the machine.

- Those who wouldn't know a super-auto from a semi-auto and therefore aren't too fussed about the machine.

There are obviously other groups that you might have to concede are verging on unwinnable - for example there are people that will only visit cafes that use Illy beans but I would imagine these groups are a minority.

The main things I look for when visiting a new coffee shop would be a decent grinder - I don't think this can be skimped on - and quite often a brew bar of some sort with an assortment of brewing paraphernalia. Quite often you only see the espresso machine from the back anyway and a lot of machines look quite generic from the back!

Just out of interest Mike, are you sure your Super Jollys will be able to keep up with demand if you're busy? I think you said you bought two - is one for decaf? The grind quality is great but 10+ seconds of grinding when you have a queue of people might be a bit slow.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

sicknote said:


> Specialty coffee drinkers will of course be different from the majority but for me, neither the machine or barista has any impact on where I drink coffee......I feel its mostly about the bean/roast.


Fair point regarding distinguishing between mass consumerism and speciality coffee. I should have been more specific in my question. For my part, I'm interested in understanding whether customers who do know something about speciality coffee and machines are swayed enough to think that a coffeeshop isn't as good if it doesn't have the latest machine.

Gary's uberboiler comment is a good expansion on this. I actually don't think I'd ever buy one because (a) they have issues, according to owners and engineers I've spoken to, (b) £3-4k seems too much for what you get, and © despite researching, I've never been given enough tangible benefits to justify them.

But if target customers are put off when the latest piece of kit isn't there, then there's a stronger argument for having it.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

lookseehear said:


> Just out of interest Mike, are you sure your Super Jollys will be able to keep up with demand if you're busy? I think you said you bought two - is one for decaf? The grind quality is great but 10+ seconds of grinding when you have a queue of people might be a bit slow.


I have three. One guest, one decaf.

You're right to question the SJ speed. I also question the potential decibels. I certainly see them as a starting point with a view to upgrading once we are on our feet. Interesting that even in a coffeeshop some people check out the grinder as a priority rather than the machine.


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## sicknote (Sep 5, 2011)

Are you targeting customers who know something about coffee or customers who want a cup of coffee? I feel targeting specific customers is a dangerous path to go down. I just like coffee. If one shop has all the gadgets but another sells better coffee then I know who will be getting my cash.

I think this entire specialty coffee thing is getting to be a bit of a joke to be honest. For me a business has to make money, the local coffee shops to me are full of pensioners everyday......all they want is some coffee and cake. Edited.....this should not be an excuse to sell poor coffee.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I agree with some of your comments. It has to be profitable. It's not a hobby. But that doesn't mean everyone should cater to the lowest common denominator. There's nothing wrong with doing so... and often it's the best approach in terms of making money... but making as much money as possible isn't my main business goal. Making a decent living doing something I love is. Can 'good' coffee provide that? Not sure, and only time will tell. One of my target markets is people who like good coffee, not just coffee. That's how I hope to attract a fair number of customers. If one doesn't understand ones target markets one will fail... marketing 101. But I'm not naive enough to think that every customer is a coffee nerd, so obviously I have more than one target demographic and more than one offering. But this thread's about the good coffee crew


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## sicknote (Sep 5, 2011)

I would have thought targeting the lowest common denominator and turning them into your way of thinking would be a very important part of your strategy. I thought the entire specialty coffee business was based on education?

I suppose good coffee in the right location will provide you with a decent living......as long as your footfall has enough 'good coffee' drinkers.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

sicknote said:


> I would have thought targeting the lowest common denominator and turning them into your way of thinking would be a very important part of your strategy. I thought the entire specialty coffee business was based on education?
> 
> I suppose good coffee in the right location will provide you with a decent living......as long as your footfall has enough 'good coffee' drinkers.


Educating the customer? Not my goal. Interesting them in a better cup of coffee is. Then if they want to know more I'll help. Educating the baristas, yes.

Re your 1st point, it depends on the aim of the targeting, i.e. which market strategy you want to adopt, eg as per Ansoff's product/market matrix


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## sicknote (Sep 5, 2011)

I guess we are talking 2 different markets. The average coffee drinker is clueless when it comes to coffee. They will happily buy ground coffee with a 12 month best before date. I feel the majority need to be educated in a sense that there is better coffee out there, not boring them to death about roasting profiles etc. I'm sure when you open your doors and customers try your coffee, they will be wondering what they have been drinking across the street. They have been educated without you saying a word.

I totally understand your trying to attract a slightly different customer to the average joe, but those customers were once clueless like the rest of us.....sorry for taking your thread off topic.

On the subject of grinders........


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Sounds like we're not that far apart after all. I think the word 'speciality' is offputting to some people and can smacks of being up yourself. That's why I prefer just saying 'good' coffee, same way as we plan to hire a talented chef to produce 'good' food. Hopefully it appeals to everyone, but has elements that specifically appeal to coffee lovers, foodies, tea 'fanciers' (or whatever they're termed!) etc. So if a coffee lover who knows about machines sees a Faema rather than a La Marzocco, Aurelia or Synesso I'm keen to know if that reduces our impact, or alternatively whether people think that the espresso may be equally good but perhaps needing a little more work on the baristas part. As you can see, I'm considering a new machine before we're even open


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## coffee2gogo (Jan 19, 2012)

I don't think the machine is that important, to me anyway, like the proverbial workman with his tools, its not what you've got, but what you do with it that matters







I do however, resent paying well over the odds for a very small latte that is pretending to be a flat white. Barriers skills are more important than the machine, as are the beans used.


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## coffee2gogo (Jan 19, 2012)

In fact I don't think that I've ever noticed what machine is being used in a coffee shop, I'm too busy watching to see if they're making my coffee right (fussy bugger).


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## sicknote (Sep 5, 2011)

I was kinda thinking you were considering a new machine.....I think you just like spending money on coffee equipment....lol. Are you seriously thinking not having the latest equipment will stop people from buying your coffee?

When are you hoping to be open?


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

I do look at the machine and without really thinking about it, it will give me an idea at the back of my mind whether I am expecting a good or mediocre coffee. But then that's probably me just being a geek!

Keep the machine clean though! (stating the obvious, and I know you would, however......) I was in a pub having a meal last week, the meal was lovely and afterwards I approached the coffee area to have an after dinner treat. As soon as I noticed the coffee stained drip tray, the half inch of dust on the top and the months of accrued milk remnants dried onto both wands; I paid the bill, left the pub and do not intend to return!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> I do see the correlation, but do you think there's a converse argument? E.g. A top end machine doesn't require the barista to understand and manipulate its brew temperature capabilities... just to push a button to set the temperature. Less skill?


I think this :

1. Coffee beans have set potential to produce a cup of a certain quality (bad beans, bad roast, bad handling/storage will impact)

2. The barista can take that potential as far as their skill-set will allow (dose, grind setting, tamping, stopping the shot at certain point, choosing temperature , cleaning routines etc)

3. The equipment can inhibit the potential (if not temperature stable, pressure stable etc)

4. The barista being familiar with (and being trained on) the equipment counts for a lot regardless of being high-end or not.

On the Has Bean prize day not one of us could pull a decent shot (K30 & Slayer) or steam decent milk ....not because we havent got any skills , instead more of a case of it wasnt our equipment we were used to , and , we had received no instruction on the nuances of the kit. Obviously that equipment should produce better results than any of our prosumer kit at home.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

sicknote said:


> I was kinda thinking you were considering a new machine.....I think you just like spending money on coffee equipment....lol. Are you seriously thinking not having the latest equipment will stop people from buying your coffee?
> 
> When are you hoping to be open?


What I'd like is to serve great espresso-based drinks on a consistent basis. I'm therefore looking closer at machines, since when I bought mine it was a purchase of convenience. It's a decent machine, and probably better than most in Scotland in my view, but there have been advances and I'm trying to gauge their benefit, both in real terms and perceived









Today was a HUGE day. We finally obtained approval for our Change Of Use! Opening soon!!


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## sicknote (Sep 5, 2011)

Congrats on the approval....had only noticed the other day you were having problems. Perfect timing for the summer rush as well.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> What I'd like is to serve great espresso-based drinks on a consistent basis.


Are you not going to offer brewed coffee?


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

I don't really know enough about the machinery for it to effect my opinion. I notice when there's something wrong it's use though - portafilters elsewhere, no steam purge etc. Or no on demand grinding. I think it's fairly easy to tell whether a place is going to serve decent coffee from a cursory look about.

Having said that, impressions can always be off. I tried a place that I'd gone past a few times and thought it looked good - decor, bean choice displayed, menu etc. - the espresso I got however was very poor. The barista even had thick rimmed glasses and a moustache!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

fatboyslim said:


> Are you not going to offer brewed coffee?


Of course







That's a whole other set of challenges


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## 20Eyes (Mar 16, 2011)

The beans used are what's most likely to put me off buying commercially offered coffee. I do always look at the grinder and machine that are being used as I think it gives some indication over several factors. Unless the machines in use are clearly not up to the job, it doesn't worry me too much. Cleanliness is important, but I quite like to see machines that aren't obviously gleaming and brand new. To me, it's usually a good sign if the machines look like they've seen some hard work. It also gives hope that the barista knows there way around their kit.

The biggest indicator of what you're going to end up drinking is always watching the barista make a coffee for the person/people in front of you. That's why I don't mind queueing for a coffee one little bit.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

I always take an interest in the machine in any given cafe, but that's just because I am a nerd about these things.

It is, and has to be all about the beans, grind and skill of the barista. Lets face it, any professional grade machine is going to pull a decent espresso used right (and of course properly maintained).

I give you all an expample. Over the easter weeked, the wife and I went to Bude in Cornwall. Lovely though it was, I was parted from my espresso set up for two whole mornings it it wasn't fun at all. You would have thought that in a small seaside town packed to bursting point with tearooms, cafes and eateries of all sorts, each of which had a massive espresso machine proudly displayed 'centre stage' so to speak (interestingly, a good 70% of all machines and some grinders I saw whilst there were Rancilio, and most looked relatively new machines) and each priding themselves on quality, that you'd find some really nice coffee.

Quite the opposite. Cafe after cafe, all served TERRIBLE espresso. I dont just mean not to my taste, i mean, terrible. The two worst offenders were one place where they had a Gaggia 2 or 3 group machine (i cant recall which now) with lavazza beans, i asked for a double espresso, telling them of my coffee woes and that I was after salvation, and got a cup of what was at least 4 fl oz of thin cack with a whipsy little white crema that barely covered the surface. I took one sip just because the lady was looking to see if I was happy, so i pretended to take a sip and told her it was lovely, then as soon as she turned round i dumped it in a flower tub and legged it. The other was what purported to be an Italian restaurant/cafe where they had a very impressive looking Rancilio machine and grinder and some wizzo brand coffee (i forget what it was called, i hadnt heard of it before). I asked for a double espresso and got an over filled single espresso, with no crema at all! It was sooooo very bad that i couldnt contain myself any longer, gave it back to them, told them it was truly awful and how I couldnt understand how with all that wonderful machinery, they could manage to get is so totally wrong and not realise it, and have the front to actually serve it to anyone - in the nicest possible way of course!

I did manage to find ONE place in Bude where you can get a real espresso. There was a real Italian cafe (by which I mean owned and run by actual real life Italians) called, I think Bellini's or something similar where they had their own blend beans, there they served me a real double espresso with proper crema/flavour/any semblace of sophistication.

So, no I don't think in a commercial setting, the brand of machine is central but I suppose if you use the same beans/grind/barista with two different machines you may get two slightly differing results.


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

20Eyes said:


> The biggest indicator of what you're going to end up drinking is always watching the barista make a coffee for the person/people in front of you. That's why I don't mind queueing for a coffee one little bit.


That can lead to an awkward situation when you reach the front of queue, having seen some woeful barista practice, and are asked what you'd like.

"Well I was going to get an espresso, but since you clearly have no idea what you're doing, I'll take a tap water please"


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## Milesy (Mar 8, 2012)

I have walked into some coffee shops and seen their machine and set up and thought WOW. Let me try what they have only be sourly disappointed with preperation skills and end result.

Something simple to be but when I go into somewhere I look at the condition of their steam wand. In my experience if the wand is disgusting looking with a thick crust of old milk, even on an amazing looking machine then normally the preperation and result is rubbish.

Seeing a grinder with one of those in built tampers also ring alarm bells for me.

So in a word I suppose no, machine is not important to me anyway.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

The machine is a tool. The barista is the one who uses the tool to make the coffee.



CoffeeGeek said:


> A Barista should show flair when producing your cuppa!


I disagree with this.

This is an optional extra as the in-cup quality should be the focus, not making the process look fun.

However, I fully agree with cleanliness. A tidy work area, wiped down machine (of any brand), a grinder without a dosing chamber full of beans, and no milk caked onto the steam wand are what influences my purchasing decision.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

I must admit I did go through a stage of being swayed by the machine - my logic being that if the machine was a PID controlled double boiler then it would be harder for an incompetent or inexperienced Barista to screw up. However, in reality, there are still enough other variables to screw up that it makes very little difference in the grand scheme of things.

These days, like most others here, I am more impressed at seeing a hand tamper, a doser-less grinder (or doser that is not full of grounds), fresh beans from a quality roaster, clean working area and appropriately sized cups!

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

My 2p









*Barista Skills*

Good equipment for coffee is a lot like good equipment for sports. Can the best sports players do better with the best equipment than with more basic equipment? Yes. Are they better with bad equipment than I am with great equipment? Yes again







A top of the line machine doesn't reduce the importance of barista training (although I agree that they're more forgiving of mistakes) - it changes where you can place your time and energy. Rather than focusing on getting the right flush for the temperature you want, you can spend the same time and energy focusing on the effect different temperature and pressure settings have on the taste of the coffee.

*Perception*

Personally speaking - I judge a shop by the quality and consistency of service and products I am served. However, I don't go into lots of shops. I've travelled a fair distance in the past (including days off work and train trips) to go to good coffee shops. I chose the ones I'll visit - whether specifically or just when going past - on a number of clues: Do they use freshly roasted coffee from a roaster I think is good? Do they serve brewed coffee? Do they have a good online reputation or have I received recommendations from someone who's coffee taste I trust? All of these can convince me to make the investment of time and money to go and visit them.

Buying a great machine (slayer, synesso, LM, etc.) is one way to build that reputation. I've certainly got anecdotal evidence of coffee lovers travelling outside of london on the strength of a machine's reputation, and I know plenty of places who use good coffee, and do a good job, who are largely ignored by the coffee loving community. If a new shop opened in a reasonably accessible location for me, and all I knew about it was they had got a Slayer (for example) - I'd go visit. If I also knew they used great coffee and had a good reputation, I'd visit immediately


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Thanks Roland. Just the ticket.


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## matt- (Apr 21, 2012)

Many across Europe say there are 5 elements- the beans, the blend, the grind (stone), the machine and the woman (barista) working it.

From my experience and travels I would add a sixth that the machine needs to be being worked hard!


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