# Wet puck



## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

Hello all

I've just gotten rid of my sage barista express and have moved on to Gaggia Classic 0PV mod and Iberital MC2. Beans are fresh (kicker by hasbean) I'm still in the process of producing the god shot.

My dose is 14g for double basket. Tamped to 30lbs. Timer set to 27 seconds. The espresso itself has a citrus finish but not sour. I would like for it to be a lot smoother. However, puck seems to be muddy.

Could I be under dosing or grind too fine?

Thanks


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

What weight are you getting out?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Try taking your weight up 15/16g and see what it looks like after, may be to much room left in the basket.


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

I'm afraid I don't weight it. I just watch for the blonding.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

How do you know what your dose is then?


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

I just weigh the grounds. Not the result


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

If your weighing in, then weigh out, no big deal to pop your scales under cup and zero them...


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

I'll increase it to 16g and will let you know the result


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Go by taste mainly, don't look in to the puck too much


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

Ok I've increased it to 16grams, weighed the result and it was 34grams. Would that be ideal? Apologies but I'm still getting my head around the brew ratios!























Tastewise, I think it is balanced. Not too bitter but quite strong. Anyway, Puck is not too muddy. It's just slightly wet. I'll keep practicing and improve on the dosing bit.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

errrr, you weighed it and it came out as ml ?

You should be weighing the output as grams?


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

Oh sorry it's grams! I was looking at the shot glass. It had an ml written on the side.


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

Ok I've edited the correct measurement.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

How long did it take to get that weight from hitting go to hitting stop?


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

Actually it wasn't even more than 20seconds. I thought it was too quick


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

I understand it has to be 27seconds to 30 to produce an ounce but I don't seem to be able to achieve that


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Take you grind a little finer, say quarter of a turn on the MC2...


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Take you grind a little finer, say quarter of a turn on the MC2...


Yes I will try that. Thanks.


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

Yea I'm also shopping for a better scales. Mine won't fit when portafilter's attached. Either that or my shot glass is too tall.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

If your pouring singles then you can pop the spout of the PF, or take the drip tray out and put small shot glass under the pipe.

All temporary of course till you get some slim scales.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Hi Sarah, sounds like you are getting closer.

I always find the 1.6 ratio to be a good starting point (if you're not already doing that).

Just multiply your 16g (or whatever you start with in the basket) by 1.6, and that gives you a weight out (25.6g).

If you are getting that out in 25 - 30 seconds, then you'll be in the ballpark

Start timer when you flick the brewswitch!

Hope that helps


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

From the picture of that puck in your photograph , it looks to me to be too coarse by at least a full turn of the adjuster and not properly tamped and polished, after tamping and polishing the surface of the puck should be nice and smooth. Ti will also probably be the case that your distribution in the basket needs a little work too.


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

Well I have tried to do two more shots. Here's what I did. On the first round, finer ground, tamped hard, 16g of coffee. It took 20seconds to get 26g which I thought wasn't right. Taste was sour!























On the second round, I left the machine for about 6 minutes. I believe it was sour coz of the temperature. Same grind size but tamped harder. However it still took 20 seconds to get 26g! I know it should be 25.6 (1.6x ratio) but my scale doesn't show that.

















At this point I think the grind should be finer. Anyway, your thoughts and critique are appreciated.

Thanks


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Can you show your puck after shot has been pulled?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

The photo showing the shot pouring with no spout, looks very fast, you want to see a more slow central stream, this indicates either as you say to course, or channeling!

A photo of your puck afterwards will tell more!


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

Yes I was hoping for a slower stream and a bit more concentrated texture as opposed to watery!

I think I'll grind finer and tamp harder. Totally not happy with the results lol but I'm still learning. I'm gonna give it a rest else I won't be able to sleep tonight!

Yes I'll remember to take a photo of the puck. It comes out as puck but just a bit wet.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I really struggled with my MC2 for about a week when i got it, went though two bags of coffee in no time.

Take the grinds a lot finer, looking at your puck before the shot it looks too course as Charlie says, take it a couple of turns, test the grind and adjust, your looking for fluffy as a starting point!


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

-removed- anyone know how to delete a post?

Sorry was gonna ask a question about the mc2 but it sounded stupid lol!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Ask away........


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Just a little something to add, you aren't starting with the easiest of coffee's to get a good shot from, people with experience and more expensive set ups sometimes struggle with Kicker.

Here is what Has Bean say in their description:



> This particular one is a super premium, super delicious, challenging, difficult blend that sings like an angel when it is right.
> 
> This blend may need a machine and a level of precision to get exactly right, so it's not for the uninitiated, and certainly not for the faint hearted. It will take work to nail it just right, but when you do it is an amazing blend.
> 
> When it is right expect a bright espresso with sweetness and substance, with sherbet lemons and oranges, and a vibrant effervescence that works super well in espresso and cuts through the milk in a pleasing way. A grown-up coffee blend


So you could quite possibly be confusing the citrus flavours and effervescence as sour , citric acid gets used in all sorts of confectionery to create a sour taste.

Something like Italian Job from Rave or Brighton Lanes from Coffee Compass might be easier to start out with.


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

Ah I knew I shouldn't have filled up my hopper with kicker! I've got Monmouth espresso blend and jabberwocky to try.

I was just watching a video on someone using the kicker beans. It looked so thick! Would love to be able to do that!


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Sarah0817 said:


> Yes I was hoping for a slower stream and a bit more concentrated texture as opposed to watery!
> 
> I think I'll grind finer and tamp harder. Totally not happy with the results lol but I'm still learning. I'm gonna give it a rest else I won't be able to sleep tonight!
> 
> Yes I'll remember to take a photo of the puck. It comes out as puck but just a bit wet.


Yep, definitely grind finer.

The key to tamping is consistency. So repeat a consistent pressure/style for every shot.

Providing you are not getting channelling, shooters etc. then the tamping is probably ok.

Checking the puck post shot is a good way to tell if anything has gone wrong.

Just apply consistent tamping from shot to shot, and grind finer/coarser accordingly.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Charliej said:


> Just a little something to add, you aren't starting with the easiest of coffee's to get a good shot from, people with experience and more expensive set ups sometimes struggle with Kicker.
> 
> Here is what Has Bean say in their description:
> 
> ...


Totally agree with this


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

Good morning!

I've made the grind finer (1full turn), tamped to 30lbs, 16 grams dose and had 30g at 26seconds( oops! Should've stopped at 23 seconds). The stream is a lot slower.

I'm not getting any lemony sherbetty taste but yes, it's difficult.

I've also included photos of my puck.






































Am I getting closer or have I gone off the rails? Lol

Critique and advise are appreciated. Thanks


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I don't think there's much to be gained from looking at the outside of the puck - if you want to check cut it open and see if it's evenly saturated.

You said it lost the lemon taste but was it good over all?


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

Jeebsy, it was very strong. Had to add a dash of water. It's not too bitter. Sweet after taste. A lot stronger than yesterday's which is strange coz the dose is the same. Either that or my taste buds early this morning isn't active!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Maybe try going slightly finer to bring the time up slightly but you're almost there. You could also try letting it run a bit longer and see how that tastes.

Just make it how you think it tastes best.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Check the top of your puck when finished, see if you have any tiny little holes...


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

Puck have no holes froggystyle


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

You've got some uneven extraction judging by the colour difference on the front of the puck. Might be an idea to ease off the tamp pressure a bit.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I would also suggest making sure the basket walls and rim are clear of grinds before locking in your portafilter too, from the look of your puck I would say there is certainly room for going a little finer and get the polishing right the surface still looks a little uneven. Always remember that 1.6 times dry weight for output is simply a suggestion not a hard and fast rule, as an example pulling a double shot from 14g with a volume of 60ml as per the Italian official espresso standard, results , if you take 1ml to be roughly equal to 1 gram, of over 4 times the dry weight !! if a ratio of 1:1.6 isn't working for you then try pulling the shot longer or shorter running it even to beyond 30 seconds to get your desired brew weight isn't a crime.


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

I'm going to start practicing again when I get home from work.

Thanks for being so patient with me!


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Shots still look too gushy. Tighten grind more. I think you need to up dose in a double basket the head clearance would be too large at 14-16g. Put a 2p coin on top of tamped grinds and place in portafilter, release portafilter and remove the coin; show us a photo of that.


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

It was rather over extracted today but dry puck. It's 18g. I think will need to have coarser ground.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

How long did it take to extract? by grinding finer the coffee will take up less space in the portafilter. If you look very closely at the photos you can see where the puck isn't sealed very well at the side of the basket so that will cause channelling as the water will seek the place of least resistance, and your tamping also isn't level either.


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

It took 33 seconds to get an ounce.

I'm still waiting for my 58mm tamper to arrive. Gaggia recommends 57mm so I got that(convex) but it leaves a mm gap on the sides. I have no clue why they the original gaggia classic plastic tamper is 57mm

Hopefully when the 58mm comes it'll tamp the sides a lot cleaner.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

A lot of the recommendations from the manufacturer for these machines are a bit baffling to anyone who knows what they are doing.

Also just to pick up on a point from earlier, whilst you want some weight over the grinding beans in your hopper dont leave the beans in there for more than a day or so before you grind them. Its worth buying a proper container to keep them in, but until this point keep them in the resealable hasbean bag between uses.

Are you also aware you need to rest your beans for a week or so after the roasting date? In this first week most beans will produce an undrinkable shot, and often contribute to an uneven extraction.


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

I usually don't open the bag a week before I get the beans.

I use a foodsaver vacuum sealer and put then back in the hasbean bag to get light out.

At the moment I've opted to use cheaper beans(lavazza) until I get the basics right.

I think at the moment it's all about balancing my dosing, grinding and tamping.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Sarah0817 said:


> Hopefully when the 58mm comes it'll tamp the sides a lot cleaner.


58mm will be a much better fit. You can go to 58.4mm using baskets whose sides don't taper. For the stock Gaggia baskets, 58mm is probably best as, if memory serves, they do taper towards the bottom of the basket.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sarah0817 said:


> I usually don't open the bag a week before I get the beans.
> 
> I use a foodsaver vacuum sealer and put then back in the hasbean bag to get light out.
> 
> ...


Your grind and dose will have to alter accordingly when you get fresher beans than lavazza


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

I will when I get to that stage. I've got fresh beans stored. Just starting to understand the basics and get to know the process if that makes sense


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sarah0817 said:


> I will when I get to that stage. I've got fresh beans stored. Just starting to understand the basics and get to know the process if that makes sense


Absolutely but your better of practicing on fresh bean all the same , the grind will need to be significantly different

Have a look at rave for instance for some tasty but great value beans , and you will enjoy more , as fresh beans are tastier ...honest

Think of it like this , would you practice baking a cake with stale ingredients........


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Absolutely but your better of practicing on fresh bean all the same , the grind will need to be significantly different
> 
> Have a look at rave for instance for some tasty but great value beans , and you will enjoy more , as fresh beans are tastier ...honest
> 
> Think of it like this , would you practice baking a cake with stale ingredients........


Plus you will have something to drink rather than throw away


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