# Descaling problem - valv error



## Jon12345

I have a Sage Dual Boiler BES920UK and it needs descaling. I have run through the process up to opening the 2 valves at the front to let the water drain from the boilers. But when I tighten those screws back up again and press Manual, I get the valv error message. I can't seem to get past this.

When starting this descaling process, the machine was cold, if that makes any difference.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Jon


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## Bolta

This problem occurs when the a boiler fails to drain, could be due to a piece of scale blocking the drain. The program cannot proceed past this step now. You can work around this by turning off the machine and leaving it off overnight. The program will reset itself and allow normal operation to proceed, but you must now remove the descaling solution in each boiler. Fill the reservoir with clean water. Turn the machine on and try to drain each boiler. Then refill and drain until all the descaling solution has cleared.


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## Jon12345

@Bolta, there isn't any descaling solution in each boiler. The error message happens after I have opened the valves to let the clean water out. But it doesn't seem to empty properly. Water comes out but I still get the valv message. The descaling solution is just sitting in the water tank. It hasn't been through the system yet.


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## 4085

You need to trick the machine into resetting to clear the error message, then start again, so follow the advice from @Bolta


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## Jon12345

If I trick the machine into resetting, won't the error message still be there when I run the descaling process again, because it still hasn't been descaled and so will have some scale blocking the draining of the boiler?

I am asking this because when I tried to descale a few months back, I got the same valv message.

One additional thought...can you just run the descaling solution through the system as though you were making cups of coffee and frothing? I wonder if this could help remove some scale as a pre-wash type measure, in case scale is causing the valv issue.


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## Bolta

You can descale without using the program. For the brew boiler displace the water with descaling solution by opening the hot water valve to allow solution in this boiler. Turn off the machine and leave for an hour then see if the drain is cleared. Opening the water valve momentarily to start the feed pump may also help to open the drain.

The steam boiler drain if blocked may clear if you open the drain momentarily when under full pressure. You will not be able to get solution into this boiler unless you can drain it.

The brew boiler holds 400 ml and the steam boiler holds 450 ml liquid, measure what collects in the drip tray so you can determine if the contents have drained from each.


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## Jon12345

Called Sage and they said they will have to get a repair person out. No steam from the steam wand now and some pulsating sound coming from the motor. The steam wand peeps 3 times when I lift the lever. They said a repair would normally be £300 to £400 but they can do it for £108 for me as she feels really sorry for me. Is that bull? I heard someone laughing away on the phone. I think they were playing silly buggers. Nice and professional huh?


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## abvilejn

Hi, it is over 2 years since I got my Sage Dual Boiler, and it is driving me crazy with Valv error. I do suffer the same problem, and I have also faced with no steam from the wand, just 3 beeps when lifted the leaver. Because the machine was in warranty period (it happened around 6 months after I've purchased the machine), I didn't have to pay for repair or engineer call out. In fact, they took the machine but couldn't work out the fault, so they decided to replace steam boiler. If your machine is under 2 years old, you shouldn't pay any repair costs if machine is used in domestic environment. Well, that solved my "no steam coming" problem, but I still got same Valve error every time when I descale the machine. According to service engineer who fixed the machine, Sage DB has very fiddly sensor (it is apparently know error), and the best thing to do is just to keep trying to add more water in the tank (from the back of the machine, not the front), but not over MAX level (obviously). If the error is still showing, pour some water out, and refill it again........ This is what I have to do, and it works every time, but it is very frustrating. About Sage customer service: it is "hit and miss": while some staff is great and do take customers calls and concern's seriously, others seems cannot be bother to listen carefully, and couldn't be bothered to help customers.


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## saxobob

Me too (VALV error). Had a boiler replace after 18 months under warranty and subsequently had to pay for boiler seals for about £80 incl return postage (I think the probably didn't do them properly if they only lasted 6 months, but I don't really know). I mentioned the VALV but both times when I came to descale it returned. Just really adding a +1 so anyone contemplating is aware of the issue. I would still buy the machine, even knowing this, and with the periodic hassle of doing a rescale without the help of the automatic program, as it makes incredible coffee with great consistency. I've found the authorised repairers good, though again, I accidentally sent the machine with the tamper in and it got lost. They sent me a well used replacement after I pointed this out.


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## ajohn

I found 3 sets of descaling instructions on a Breville site. It seems software has been updated, one issue wasn't around for long.







Probably nothing to do with the VALV error but may have something to do with reports of steam failing and the 3 beeps after or during a descale. My first refurbished DB failed like this due to the pumps not filling the boilers correctly the first time I powered it up. Reports on the web suggest that the end result is a blown thermal fuse on the steam boiler and maybe a burnt out heating element. My problem seemed to be down to an airlock so the pumps made a racket pumping a mix or air and water for rather a long time. On the 2nd machine I opened both valves *fully *and left it like that for 1/2 hr. When I descale I also leave them open for an extra 5min after they have appeared to drain.

The no steam repair shouldn't cost much. It seems that the main problem is getting at the thermal fuse - it's not easy to get at so stuff has to be removed = more labour costs.

When draining the tanks after or during a descale the steam boiler is under pressure - that's why manuals suggest placing a flannel over the drip tray. If people report no steam to Sage it seems they are fond of telling people to descale the steam wand. I suspect that this means that steam can be selected when the boilers are at full temperature during a descale. That should be when the machine tells people to drain and refill.

I saw a post somewhere mentioning that the repair people think that the machine should be descaled more often than Sage suggest - every 2 months irrespective of what the machine reckons. Given how weak the usual descalers are that might be a good idea. My machine for instance boils the water for a while during heat up 3 times or more a day. I can hear it doing that right up the the point where the PID reduces the heating rate.

I came across another piece of information that surprised me. It seems that at one point the DB didn't have drain valves so had to be descaled manually. This was done by removing the lid and choosing which bit to remove from the top of the boilers so that descaler could be added and removed manually. Looks like it's fact going on this






That persons videos interest me. One of the things that people tend to recommend on all espresso machines is a periodic look and see to check for initial signs of water leaks. There is more than enough info in the videos to do that and a lot more. I haven't had the lid of my DB but I suspect people will find they need a new kid on the block phillips screwdriver bit to get the lid off. It's in many Chinese precision screwdriver set sometimes referred to as a No 2.5 or as none standard.







How do I know - 'cause I checked and concluded that the usual sizes would probably mess the screw head up.

One of the videos also mentions how to get the spout of the portafilter. Only just noticed that one. One thing I have found annoying about the DB one is that it doesn't drain water out very well so I want to get it off to see if I can improve it. The problem only shows up when I flush. If not careful I finish up with drips on the floor. Never happened on the BE.

LOL Edit - every time I find videos on various things I am amazed by what can be bought at hardware stores in the USA. I don't think similar places exist in the UK any more and may never have.

John

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## CoffeeChris

This is my 3rd machine. Two were replaced while in warranty. Unfortunately just happened again. Steam boiler completely gone. Out of warranty so will cost. Is this a know issue... If so should sage be picking up the bill!


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## ajohn

CoffeeChris said:


> This is my 3rd machine. Two were replaced while in warranty. Unfortunately just happened again. Steam boiler completely gone. Out of warranty so will cost. Is this a know issue... If so should sage be picking up the bill!


Valve error, 3 beeps or what? Steam boiler gone isn't very clear.

John

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## CoffeeChris

Valve 3 error originally. Manually descale without running program. After reflush boiler didn't refill (getting the 3 beeps) ... Smelt burning so guess something has now gone... (no beeps at all now)


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## Craig-R872

CoffeeChris said:


> Valve 3 error originally. Manually descale without running program. After reflush boiler didn't refill (getting the 3 beeps) ... Smelt burning so guess something has now gone... (no beeps at all now)


How did you descale without running the programme?


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## CoffeeChris

Basically empty boilers. Refill. Leave empty, refill with clean water. Only way if it's stuck on valve error


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## Craig-R872

Right ok. Guess if you can smell burning then there's a fair chance the element has gone.


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## ajohn

Other than burning and the initial valve error and now no beeps it sounds like the problem I had with my first ebay refurbished DB. That seemed to be that the steam boiler didn't fill correctly. Result a blown thermal fuse and maybe a burnt out heater. There are old reports about this happening on the web.

It sounds like a very unhappy machine if even the beeps have gone. If the brew side isn't working either it might be worth checking the fuse in the plug.

I would have a couple of things to suggest if it was just the valve error and also descaling out of the program.

If you want to take a look inside this might help






Different version but generally very similar.

John

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## ajohn

CoffeeChris said:


> Basically empty boilers. Refill. Leave empty, refill with clean water. Only way if it's stuck on valve error


There are other reason that the valve error might crop up - level sensing not working as it should. It's possible to visually check if the boilers are really draining via the level in the drip tray when they have emptied and also see the flow.

There is also the "old" way which could be useful if the problem really is scale






That way if the descaler is put in manually and removed manually and a more aggressive descaler such as Durgol is used it should be possible to get rid of any scale in it.

He removes a level sensor in that. Notice the discolouration. If they are plain stainless I would polish them up with wire wool. Trouble is they may be plated with something to reduce passivation problems so more care would be needed. I also suspect that there may be more than one level sensor. Problems with these will also cause the valve error.

When descaling out of the program I'm not sure I would let the machine fully heat up. The program mode reduces the temperature of the steam boiler.

John

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## ajohn

Whoops I should have mentioned checking that the level sensing probes really are insulated from the boiler - a bit of a leak around the O ring could spoil that. What I don't know is what type of O rings they are. Might be silicone.

John

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## CoffeeChris

Thanks John. Is it an expensive job to get it fixed?


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## ajohn

Afraid I have no idea. I can only go on comments on the web where repairs are mentioned by people who have done them. It seems the thermal fuse isn't that easy to get at and requires some dismantling. They don't cost much unless Sage have come up with something that looks nothing like they usually do. Dismantling to replace the heater probably involves the same work. If the burnt smell is electronics letting it's active ingredient out - smoke, that could prove rather expensive as companies who make anything usually charge excessive amounts for replacements in that area. I could for instance have paid anything from just over £100 up to £250 for a replacement timer / display board for my Mazzer.

I'm not at all sure how you could find out. You could try phoning coffee classics but Sage may have interfered with using that route directly and be insisting people go through them. They have on consumables and I was told all that coffee classics can provide is part numbers. There was a post on here not all that long ago by some one who did it that through Sage. Not sure for what etc. To be honest I am slowly getting the impression that Sage UK is becoming a rather silly company. Also a machine sold and acting up where some on thought that they had forked out too much money already on repairs. It wasn't clear if these previous repairs really worked. Repairs should have a warrantee.

I suspect your best option is to phone CC and ask if they can give you an idea of what a repair might cost. Describe what happened - all of it. Maybe Sage haven't told them not to do that. Frankly I would be surprised if Sage pay some one suitable to sit in what is essentially a call centre. I suspect that via Sage some one would take notes and and pass them to an engineer - that's based on personal experience.

John

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## ajohn

CoffeeChris said:


> This is my 3rd machine. Two were replaced while in warranty. Unfortunately just happened again. Steam boiler completely gone. Out of warranty so will cost. Is this a know issue... If so should sage be picking up the bill!


To me 2 machines under warrantee seems unusual. It would be interesting to know how long each of these and the final replacement lasted.

John

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## CoffeeChris

ajohn said:


> To me 2 machines under warrantee seems unusual. It would be interesting to know how long each of these and the final replacement lasted.
> 
> John
> 
> -


My current machine lasted 4 years. 1st machine purchased was Dec 2013... Probably 6 months... Unlucky on that one as I remember coffee classics stating that the element had burnt out. 2nd was within a year too.


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## ajohn

CoffeeChris said:


> My current machine lasted 4 years. 1st machine purchased was Dec 2013... Probably 6 months... Unlucky on that one as I remember coffee classics stating that the element had burnt out. 2nd was within a year too.


LOL Makes me wonder if you are doing something wrong. A comment I have seen several times that seem to have come from an engineer but 2nd hand is descale every 2 months. I set mine for harder water than we actually get and the descale recently came on, around 5 months. I may have messed up descaling so did 2 on the trot, first with Sage stuff and 2nd with Puly. I noticed an improvement in boiling noises after the 2nd one. I don't put that down to Puly just that the first one didn't seem to clear the scale and I probably did do it properly. Having changed the shower screen I have found it's best to remove it as the brew tank drain more quickly so may have messed that one up - don't think so.

It seems there was a firmware release at some point where the heating could come on without sufficient water in the steam boiler during descaling. Not sure when but I think it was updated pretty quickly. The first refurb I had that looked to have this sort of problem didn't fill the boilers correctly. The pumps rattled away for some time. 2nd one I opened the drain valves and left it alone for 1/2hr just in case the previous one had some sort of air lock etc. If the pumps don't sound right it would be best to switch off immediately. They need to sound like they are pumping water not a mix with some air etc.

There is a good potted list of typical problems in this thread

https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/breville-dual-boiler-five-years-on-t45361.html

O rings, 3 way and the aluminium part that the shower screen screw fits into. This is it but I doubt if the heater is needed

https://www.ereplacementparts.com/shower-head-complete-assembly-p-1439486.html

Those were stocked by that company and do fail. You can see that all sorts of parts are available from the same site. Only in the USA as some American friends of mine would say when they see things done differently in the UK and Europe.







Only did stock in this case. However the parts diagrams are there. Some one at Sage told me they couldn't provide those for obvious reasons.

So why aren't these parts on the Sage web site? A similar aluminium part was for the BE - I thought I was ordering a shower screen and thought wow that's expensive. On the BE the thermocoil unit sits on it. O rings - mine will probably fail sooner than some peoples as the machine heats up 3 times a day. It seems that the 3 way can be fixed by dismantling, cleaning and replacing O rings - I have seen a photo where there was corrosion under it - probably O rings again. That I think is the usual way of sealing them.

:secret:What people need to bear in mind is that all machines have problems at times. Sage may well be no worse than many others. A certain man on here also rightly suggest that people should take a look inside machines periodically to spot things before they become serious. A bit tough on what is basically a consumer orientated piece of kit though and there are a lot of O rings to check. It would be more sensible to replace the lot. At the price they sell the machines at they couldn't manage flared end stainless piping etc. Maybe not even standard push fit connections. Then comes maintenance - all act up if that isn't done to a sufficient level. I've come across people who say I use bottled water so no need to descale - numskulls in my view.

John

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## CoffeeChris

Thanks for advice. I normally descale on average every 3 to 4 months... Always before the alarm tells me too. I do use bottled water too! Maybe I am doing something wrong. Always follow instructions to the word.


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## ajohn

CoffeeChris said:


> Thanks for advice. I normally descale on average every 3 to 4 months... Always before the alarm tells me too. I do use bottled water too! Maybe I am doing something wrong. Always follow instructions to the word.


I didn't mean anything in respect to you by the comments I made. Hope you didn't think I did. I can't see how scaling could cause the same problem with the first 2 machines or the latest one. It might be worth you talking to them

Part of my tone is due to concluding that maybe Sage are becoming a company that it may be best to avoid. The DB offers a lot for the money but it's still a £1000 plus machine that can have problems that need fixing every few years. That might not be unusual but I saw one video where some one removed all of the casings from another make of machine and pointed out several things about it. One was lack of shielding on electronics, bad but the other probably more important one a number of parts that are generic and generally available and do have problems from time to time. Sage seems to be a bit of a black hole in that respect not only where are they but also what they might cost. A replacement set of O rings for instance cost wise to them would be peanuts. Getting a machine too them, having them fitted and getting it back wont be. The alloy part I mentioned for the BE is no longer shown in it's parts list. It can fail for the same reason a the part on the DB. The inner burr for the grinder isn't shown either. The outer burr shows a portafilter - the upper burr as they call it which is also the outer one is shown correctly. Yet they want to deal with spares and even make mistakes on their web pages. Prices of the stuff that is shown are in my view apart from cleaning materials reasonable - at £14 a piece for the 3 off those they aren't by any stretch of the imagination.







There has been a "bit" of posting on the merits and price of the latest filter they are using so wont mention that.

Maybe the best answer is the 3 year warrantee option if it's still available and sell just before it's up and buy another. Or same with 2 year warrantees but that is an even more expensive option.

John

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## CoffeeChris

Not at all John. You have obviously looked into this lots. I should point out that my second machine got send back due to the pump not being stable.... But I have always had issues descaling it. I actually dred the process in case something happens!


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## ajohn

Only a few hours on the web. The easiest way to do that is via Breville







there are no engineers left in the UK or we are a secretive lot / can't be bothered. More likely less people that repair them and less machines sold here. They have a single market, currently 325 million people = a lot more nuts wanting to buy a coffee machine of some sort. There population is the main reason their companies grow bigger than others.

As things stand it's probably easier to get a Dehlonghi repaired diy or by some one else

https://www.fiyo.co.uk/coffee-machine/-delonghi?device_brand=473&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIldj9yf7D3AIVirTtCh0aAQ1mEAAYASAAEgLxZPD_BwE

This is how consumer electronicy stuff, freezers and etc etc are usually handled. Sage seem to want to do it themselves - rather badly not even showing parts that they know can need replacing.

There a couple of things you could do

Phone Sage and politely moan. They may be able to offer some sort of service. From the link I posted Breville did or do offer something or the other. Sounded like set price for a fix or replace.

Try a local espresso service person. They wont be keen on phoning CC for part numbers and then Sage for prices and in real terms probably couldn't quote a cost but who knows. As Sage machines are around they may show an interest.

Flog it on ebay spare or repair - no steam and that boiler not heating buy at purchasers risk as you have no idea what's wrong with it. You might be surprised about how much you could get for it. Being curious I wondered about buying a BE like this just to see what's in it and obtain some spares. Also to see if I could make up a full sized grouphead for it. Going on the prices those went for you might get over £200 for it. Some of the BE's may not have even had their electronics in them but people still bought them. One definitely no longer had them in. Maybe a free listing day and an opening bid of £190 might be worth trying. Or pay the fee and find out.

John

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## 4085

Chris, the only people who can really fix this machine, is Coffee Classics who are the authorised Sage repairers. I know that does not matter much as it is not a warrant issue. I am afraid the downside to owning a Sage, is this reliability problem. It is going to occur time after time. Sage sell thousands of machines a year and if only 0.50% are faulty thats still a lot. Have you rung Sage and asked them if on this occasion they will support you? Probably no need to mention previous repairs/replacements.

Coffee Classics can be found

http://coffeeclassics.co.uk/what-we-do/machine-repair-or-breakdown/


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## CoffeeChris

dfk41 said:


> Chris, the only people who can really fix this machine, is Coffee Classics who are the authorised Sage repairers. I know that does not matter much as it is not a warrant issue. I am afraid the downside to owning a Sage, is this reliability problem. It is going to occur time after time. Sage sell thousands of machines a year and if only 0.50% are faulty thats still a lot. Have you rung Sage and asked them if on this occasion they will support you? Probably no need to mention previous repairs/replacements.
> 
> Coffee Classics can be found
> 
> http://coffeeclassics.co.uk/what-we-do/machine-repair-or-breakdown/


Thanks for advice . It happened yesterday so will put a call in first thing Monday. I've got a feeling this will be expensive!


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## 4085

CoffeeChris said:


> Thanks for advice . It happened yesterday so will put a call in first thing Monday. I've got a feeling this will be expensive!


If you manage to speak to anyone at Sage, politely make the point that you do not expect to spend £x on a machine for it to breakdown so quickly. Apple famously often repair out of warranty machines on that exact same basis and it does not half create brand loyalty


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## CoffeeChris

That's what I'm hoping for...I'm only trying to look after it too... It's not even in heavy use.


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## ajohn

CoffeeChris said:


> Thanks for advice . It happened yesterday so will put a call in first thing Monday. I've got a feeling this will be expensive!


It might not be that expensive actually compared with a new machine. Companies do need to make a profit and on that basis replacement parts costs where they shown as available are pretty reasonable really. They have to be stocked etc. Maybe a special offer or maybe FOC no way of knowing without talking to them. I would have thought your experience with the brand is relevant. The others sound like *'*hit happens in a few cases to me. Frankly I don't see how any one could encourage this sort of failure. Maybe running it on a near empty tank. Not sure if it has a level sensor but I would have thought all would check visually anyway. I do when ever I use it.

Sage reliability - not so sure it's any worse than others. Not something I know much about but believe full machine services on other makes can include replacing parts that haven't failed - yet. This is where I feel Sage are weak. I don't see even the Barista Express as a disposable item. DB no way and it does look like they have pretty cheap parts that can cause problems. O rings for instance, If those take 3 years to misbehave that is actually a pretty long period. They do seem to be changing how spares are handled but currently it doesn't seem to be in a very helpful fashion when machines are out of warrantee. I don't see why repairs should be tied down to one particular company.

Personally I am not sure that CC are the only people who can repair them. I enquired about a used machine. The sellers said that they found the machines very reliable - they knew their way around Sage machines and were also espresso machine repairers.

John

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## 4085

ajohn said:


> It might not be that expensive actually compared with a new machine. Companies do need to make a profit and on that basis replacement parts costs where they shown as available are pretty reasonable really. They have to be stocked etc. Maybe a special offer or maybe FOC no way of knowing without talking to them. I would have thought your experience with the brand is relevant. The others sound like *'*hit happens in a few cases to me. Frankly I don't see how any one could encourage this sort of failure. Maybe running it on a near empty tank. Not sure if it has a level sensor but I would have thought all would check visually anyway. I do when ever I use it.
> 
> Sage reliability - not so sure it's any worse than others. Not something I know much about but believe full machine services on other makes can include replacing parts that haven't failed - yet. This is where I feel Sage are weak. I don't see even the Barista Express as a disposable item. DB no way and it does look like they have pretty cheap parts that can cause problems. O rings for instance, If those take 3 years to misbehave that is actually a pretty long period. They do seem to be changing how spares are handled but currently it doesn't seem to be in a very helpful fashion when machines are out of warrantee. I don't see why repairs should be tied down to one particular company.
> 
> Personally I am not sure that CC are the only people who can repair them. I enquired about a used machine. The sellers said that they found the machines very reliable - they knew their way around Sage machines and were also espresso machine repairers.
> 
> John
> 
> -


I said, CC are the only authorised Sage repairers and they are, unless you can show differently. I(n case you had not spotted, the vast majority of Sage owners are not able or prepared to tinker with their machines. They buy them new, not reconditioned and expect certain things, but the sad truth is they machines are not designed really to be serviced by the home user. They work till they fail, then you replace it. Like a modern TV set....once the warranty expires and it breaks, you bin it..or at least most people do


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## ajohn

dfk41 said:


> I said, CC are the only authorised Sage repairers and they are, unless you can show differently. I(n case you had not spotted, the vast majority of Sage owners are not able or prepared to tinker with their machines. They buy them new, not reconditioned and expect certain things, but the sad truth is they machines are not designed really to be serviced by the home user. They work till they fail, then you replace it. Like a modern TV set....once the warranty expires and it breaks, you bin it..or at least most people do


There are people on here that do all sorts to their machines. You could equally argue that no espresso machine is designed for home repair but they are and also by various people that repair them.

Sage? Well who knows but it's clear that they will repair them. I have actually requested parts directly from CC as some one mentioned cutting out the middleman. Sage have told them that they want to deal with parts directly themselves. This doesn't mean that parts are not available. If you had ordered anything from them you might have noticed that they come from BRG appliances.

Personally I doubt if they would restrict availability of parts to ensure that people buy new ones or even restrict who ever does the repair. That is a possibility though. I wonder just how many people who experienced a failure after the warrantee expired and found that for one reason or the other it was difficult to fix would buy another. There are other makes about at similar prices where that wont be the case.

I linked to a DB part that can fail that a general household electrical spares company did sell. They say that they can no longer obtain it from the manufacturer. That doesn't mean it can't be bought from Breville directly. They may have been obtaining it directly from who ever makes them in China. Maybe they did buy them off Breville and they too decided to deal with items like this themselves. It makes good sense. Some old names have been doing it for a long time Morphy Richards for instance. Our dog ate one of the parts off a vac by them recently. No problem at all getting a replacement on a brand new model. It wouldn't have mattered what part had been eaten.







She'd find it hard to chew a lot of the parts in a vac but some can fail or blow up.

Reconditioned - I wouldn't expect you to understand that. One of the reasons I bought that way is something that started this thread, faults, the other is that I had reservations about buying one from a functionality point of view. I do know what owning one means in that respect now.

John

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## coffeechap

Yawn yawn yawn, do you ever get rsi type problems?


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## 4085

ajohn said:


> There are people on here that do all sorts to their machines. You could equally argue that no espresso machine is designed for home repair but they are and also by various people that repair them.
> 
> Sage? Well who knows but it's clear that they will repair them. I have actually requested parts directly from CC as some one mentioned cutting out the middleman. Sage have told them that they want to deal with parts directly themselves. This doesn't mean that parts are not available. If you had ordered anything from them you might have noticed that they come from BRG appliances.
> 
> Personally I doubt if they would restrict availability of parts to ensure that people buy new ones or even restrict who ever does the repair. That is a possibility though. I wonder just how many people who experienced a failure after the warrantee expired and found that for one reason or the other it was difficult to fix would buy another. There are other makes about at similar prices where that wont be the case.
> 
> I linked to a DB part that can fail that a general household electrical spares company did sell. They say that they can no longer obtain it from the manufacturer. That doesn't mean it can't be bought from Breville directly. They may have been obtaining it directly from who ever makes them in China. Maybe they did buy them off Breville and they too decided to deal with items like this themselves. It makes good sense. Some old names have been doing it for a long time Morphy Richards for instance. Our dog ate one of the parts off a vac by them recently. No problem at all getting a replacement on a brand new model. It wouldn't have mattered what part had been eaten.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She'd find it hard to chew a lot of the parts in a vac but some can fail or blow up.
> 
> Reconditioned - I wouldn't expect you to understand that. One of the reasons I bought that way is something that started this thread, faults, the other is that I had reservations about buying one from a functionality point of view. I do know what owning one means in that respect now.
> 
> John
> 
> -


You do yourself an enormous disservice if you think I do not understand your ramblings, no matter how unhinged and incoherent they always are. Not many people have your obvious skillsets in life as nothing deters you. Breville are a separate company to Sage. Sage exists in the UK to sell rebadged Breville products so yes, you can order machines/parts if you want to. If we had a straw poll on here as to how many people have taken the case off their Sage product I think it will not be many.

Sage do not repair them. They have them repaired by CC then re sell them through various companies such as the one you bought from, XS Systems. They are insurance category C products if they were cars. If you want a used, reconditioned machine that you have no idea as to its background, user capability, user experience, but save a few bob and get a really crap warranty, then that is up to you. With the failure rate on Sage products, to me, the most important part of the deal is the warranty. Bought through Lakeland then this was a no brainer until they changed the Lifetime warranty to 3 years.

*There are people on here that do all sorts to their machines. You could equally argue that no espresso machine is designed for home repair but they are and also by various people that repair them.*

*
*

Bollocks.....the vast majority of 'normal' home user machines use standard industry parts that are supplied through a vast network, not restricted to purchasing through Sage

*
Sage have told them that they want to deal with parts directly themselves. This doesn't mean that parts are not available.*

Where else would you bu a single part from for a machine that is 100% designed by Sage. They do not use standard parts. Not pf, seals, nothing

*Personally I doubt if they would restrict availability of parts to ensure that people buy new ones or even restrict who ever does the repair. That is a possibility though. *

*
*

Usual contradiction within the same line

*That is a possibility though. I wonder just how many people who experienced a failure after the warrantee expired and found that for one reason or the other it was difficult to fix would buy another. There are other makes about at similar prices where that wont be the case.*

*
*

Surely the, this is exactly the reason that the warranty (not warrantee, or am I wrong, is it guarantee or guaranty?) is so important. We have already agreed that John Lewis etc are selling shedloads of these machines to impulse, fashionable buyers.....they do not tinker.......

*I linked to a DB part that can fail that a general household electrical spares company did sell. They say that they can no longer obtain it from the manufacturer. That doesn't mean it can't be bought from Breville directly. They may have been obtaining it directly from who ever makes them in China. Maybe they did buy them off Breville and they too decided to deal with items like this themselves. It makes good sense. Some old names have been doing it for a long time Morphy Richards for instance. Our dog ate one of the parts off a vac by them recently. No problem at all getting a replacement on a brand new model. It wouldn't have mattered what part had been eaten. She'd find it hard to chew a lot of the parts in a vac but some can fail or blow up.*

*
*

I have read this paragraph many times. I do not understand what the hell you are on about as it makes absolutely no sense, to me anyway

*Reconditioned - I wouldn't expect you to understand that. One of the reasons I bought that way is something that started this thread, faults, the other is that I had reservations about buying one from a functionality point of view. I do know what owning one means in that respect now.*

*
*

Reconditioned......yes you are right mate. I am not a cheapskate who thinks he knows better than everyone else, but it takes all sorts to make the world go round.


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## ajohn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breville_Group

John

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## spoxehub

This is some web gold right here.


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## 4085

ajohn said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breville_Group
> 
> John
> 
> -


sorry, what have I learnt by your hyperlink....?


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## DavecUK

A little caution about household names and parts availability. I had a Baumatic gas on glass hob, after 4 years the flame failure device on one of the rings (a sensor or whatever) failed and the ring would not light. It was not a particularily cheap hob and I rang them up as it has a 5 year parts warranty. They told me with a straight face that the part was no longer available. I asked what I was expected to do and why were parts no longer available after 4 years when it had a 5 year (manufacturers) parts warranty . They told me I coiuld buy a new one from them at 20% off MRSP, which made it only 30% more expensive than I could buy it at from a reseller!!!

Basically I was told to go f$%k myself wasn't I. Big household names my arse.....makes no difference.


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## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> A little caution about household names and parts availability. I had a Baumatic gas on glass hob, after 4 years the flame failure device on one of the rings (a sensor or whatever) failed and the ring would not light. It was not a particularily cheap hob and I rang them up as it has a 5 year parts warranty. They told me with a straight face that the part was no longer available. I asked what I was expected to do and why were parts no longer available after 4 years when it had a 5 year (manufacturers) parts warranty . They told me I coiuld buy a new one from them at 20% off MRSP, which made it only 30% more expensive than I could buy it at from a reseller!!!
> 
> Basically I was told to go f$%k myself wasn't I. Big household names my arse.....makes no difference.


That's tough and there is no way of knowing if that sort of thing will happen.I had a similar one on a cooker - auto re ignition on an oven. Bits to repair - not original ones but could be done with problems. The dam thing re ignited all of the time when the oven was on. Also turned the kitchen into a sauna due to crap insulation - that should be in the other thread you started. Have gone Belling instead. A gas stove with a fan gas oven - guess what the fan actually does what it's supposed to do, it regulates down really well and doesn't over heat the kitchen.Read made and probably designed in the UK.

On the DB there are video's about showing the internals of various ages of DB. They all look remarkably similar. I'd guess it's down to very hefty tooling costs. If the web tom toms are correct the weak bit long term is the O rings. Has to be said though it looks like a neat cheap solution and one of the reasons the machine costs what it does. No threads needed and they will seal in a controlled way. Replacing them - I'd guess 1/2hr and maybe a bit of cleaning where they sit. The only other comment I've seen concerned level sensing but it would be difficult to interpret what it meant. Probably a little unusual compared with many. Other problems - I always use a ' instead of an s and say 'hit happens. Some of it though may be down to how they decided to make them work.








I do now know if I want to buy a new one.

John

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## Snakehips

John, as ever, you raise some interesting points. Not least of which was questioning what might happen if someone 'experienced a failure after the warrantee expired ?'

I can't give you a definitive answer on this but I think the first consideration would be&#8230;&#8230; who is likely to inherit the machine and thereby become it's new legal owner? If the warrantee leaves a will then that should be a straight forward enough thing to determine but not so simple if they expire intestate. Then, once legal ownership is established, the question becomes 'Are we still within the original warranty period and is the warranty transferrable ?' Once you have the answers to those questions you should have a much better idea as to whether or not you need get either your spanners or your wallet out.

Hope that helps


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## MildredM

^^^^ give this man a Badge ^^^^^


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## ajohn

Snakehips said:


> John, as ever, you raise some interesting points. Not least of which was questioning what might happen if someone 'experienced a failure after the warrantee expired ?'
> 
> I can't give you a definitive answer on this but I think the first consideration would be&#8230;&#8230; who is likely to inherit the machine and thereby become it's new legal owner? If the warrantee leaves a will then that should be a straight forward enough thing to determine but not so simple if they expire intestate. Then, once legal ownership is established, the question becomes 'Are we still within the original warranty period and is the warranty transferrable ?' Once you have the answers to those questions you should have a much better idea as to whether or not you need get either your spanners or your wallet out.
> 
> Hope that helps


Maybe I need to hold a seance with a dead machine or use a wigi board to find out what can be done and by who.

My warrantee is pretty simple. Some time to run where I get a refund or another machine. Past that I get a partial refund.








Maybe I should have used this last line

I do now no if I do don't want to buy a new one or not.

John

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## MildredM

ajohn said:


> Maybe I should have used this last line
> 
> I do now no if I do don't want to buy a new one or not.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Yes, we needed clarification


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## Homestreetloft

I ran into the dreaded "VALV" nightmare and it turned out that the steam boiler had several leaking connections which were obvious when I opened the lid. I guess that when I de-scaled it some of the tiny o-rings decided to call it quits. I ordered some new o-rings from a place called Seals Supply Uk in Loughborough and popped them in and now the machine works better than ever. I don't need to fill it or empty the waste water tray nearly as often because I have corrected all of the little leaks. The o-rings are EPDM 4mm ID x 1.5mm C/S.

This video will show you how to access the boilers and any other parts that might be leaking.

PS. Do careful not to drop any of the little spring clips down into the bowels of the machine because if you can't retrieve it you will be screwed!


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## ajohn

The usual reason for the valve error seems to be the level probes. They need to be cleaned. A video I posted earlier shows where they are. I had an engineer in to repair my barista express and he mentioned that descaling or lack or it causes most problems. That very probable includes the level probes. He suggests monthly but I'd suspect that is rather OTT for the dual boiler. I get very soft tap water and rather than using the setting from the test strip I have changed and set it 2 marks harder. I may go one mark harder.

The change comes from listening to the boiling noises, I had my doubts about a descale so did 2 on the trot. No more big bubble boiling noises and the steam boiler heated up a little quicker. Things went back to how the machine was when I bought it - steam available more or less as soon as the brew was up to temperature rather than a bit of a delay. That is signs of scale on the heating element.

The engineer also mentioned seeing early signs of O ring failure when DB's are opened up. Once a machine is out of warrantee it isn't that difficult to remove the lid and take a look. Much like a certain gent on here suggests doing every 6 months on all machines who ever made them.

John

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## Jony

Oh god your back, where you been missed your Journals


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## ajohn

Oh forum flaw. Lost a post somehow on this thread. Probably didn't hit reply and thought I had. Dismal. Usually on forums what I had typed in would show next time I looked at the thread again. It's done this way because there are other things that can happen to a part finished post preventing it's completion.

Anyway what it was mostly about is the valve error due to dicky level sensing probes when the boilers have really drained. The machine will think that the boilers are full and will if told to put the heating on - result - steam boiler thermal fuse blowing and maybe a burnt out heater - 3 beeps and no steam there after.

So if the valve error crops up power off and investigate.

John

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## Kenco

I have had the same valv error, but come across 3 different versions of descaling videos on YouTube by Breville support. You check batch code inside by water tank. V2 is the one that shows how to get round valv error if your machine has *not* been serviced by Breville. After draining, filling tank with descaler and retightening drain valves the valv error shows when you press Manual. Next step is to undo the left drain and then push One Cup button. Re-tighten valve empty tray and press Manual. This should start the 20 minute program. When flushing with fresh water follow same procedure.


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## ajohn

An old post  and I know a bit more about them now. Durgol descaler may well damage the machine. There engineers use Puly descaler and have to deal with scale a lot.

The valve error can be caused by a couple of things.

Level probes need cleaning - I am not sure that this one can really happen but engineers do clean them. I have noticed fill changes after descaling so suspect it tends to clean them.

Scale blocking the drain piping or the outlet valves or both.

Worst of the lot scale sludge build up in the boilers.

The valve error can crop up any time the boiler are filled even initially before descaler has gone in. It means the machine thinks it hasn't been drained.

The one cup button push is intended to start the brew boiler draining if it doesn't show signs of it doing that. It could be augmented by putting the back flush disk into a single basket and fitting it - full pump pressure can be applied then with it's drain plug open. Might achieve something. Actually I am going to try this on my next descale but it might force more scale sludge in. My brew boiler doesn't seem to drain as well as it should. Getting at the drain valves isn't easy.

I started draining brew first to be sure it was draining fully. I seem to have run into a bit of trouble with this and have wondered if the steam boiler and brew heat exchanger being hot was causing problems. There is loads of pressure in the steam boiler so that has always drained easily for me. They say let it cool a lot but the drains after the descaler and flushes are really hot anyway.

If this problems crop up it's time to see what is going on in the machine. The old descale method from before the drains were fitted. Video on youtube and also take a look inside the boilers. Mine got this way due to it being a refurb. They descaled it as I did when I received it but it didn't remove all of the scale. Doing 2 on the trot changed the machine heat up rather a lot. Another recently well before it was due has as well. I live in a very soft water area.

 I'm making my mind up as to the best thing to do. I suspect I may well be using this along with some ptfe pipe first to see what state the boilers are actually in

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08GHL7Q8Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## LeeMa

Old topic I know.

is anyone able to talk a newbie through the steps to manually descale my machine with the VALV error.

I have a Sage Oracle. The valves on the front don't appear to tighten all the way tbh. But the operation of the machine is unaffected.

im probably doing something wrong.

many thanks.


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## DavecUK

@LeeMa Welcome to the forum, I can't help with the Sage, but hopefully one of our members will be able to help.


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## LeeMa

Thank you DavecUK. I will try the manual fill and drain of the boilers as I have seen posted on here. I was just wondering if once completed I will be able to use the device's descale process rather than a manual effort. Or is the auto descale gone forever..? 🤷🏼‍♂️lol


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## DavecUK

@LeeMa It might, it's possible that it was so scaled, it couldn't do the auto process?


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