# Best use of a €2000 budget - new machine and grinder requ



## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

As stated in my introductory post, I have a Magimix L'Expresso automatic machine and an Isomac Granmacinino. I was hoping that the grinder would be good enough for me to invest in a good machine, but it seems that my money would be better spent on getting a grinder as well.

my thoughts are now on a Eureka Atom and Rocket Apartamento as a decent combo. The only thing I don't like is the uninsulated boiler.

Do the experienced people on here have any better suggestions? This has to last me a long time.


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## radam87 (Sep 27, 2017)

Apartamento + Sette?


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Profitec 300 and Atom


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

I bought my Londinium L1 mk1 and Mythos Grinder for about £2000 secondhand.

I guess it depends on what you are aiming for and whether you would consider secondhand for its better value for the money


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

My main reason for wanting to buy new is that I am yet to find a trusted source (such as a coffee forum) locally here in France. Getting 2nd hand equipment would enable me to get much more value for money, so I guess I need to devote some time to finding a suitable source.

I will also look at the alternatives mentioned, so thanks for the input so far. Unfortunately, I don't think this will be the last of my stupid questions.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hi @CageyH - there are no stupid questions, feel free to ask away. one option would to be going for a new machine and second hand with a grinder, there are far fewer risks with a grinder.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

The more I look at it, the more I want the Rocket Giotto.

I assume that the "La Pavoni Giotto" is made by Rocket and rebadged?

Funnily enough, I have also changed my mind on the grinder.

It will ever be a Mazzer Mini/Super Jolly or the Rocket Fausto.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

Stanic said:


> Profitec 300 and Atom


I have looked into your suggestion, and there are no vendors in France.

If anything were to go wrong, it would be a pain to get the machine fixed/serviced.

It is a shame, as the 500 looks pretty good.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

I have continued to look at coffee machines, and there are a few things I dislike about the Apartamento - like the uninsulated boiler. With a machine that will be left on for long periods of time at the weekends, the additional heat won't do the electronics any good. This lead me to the Giotto, and probably the Type V. Then I started looking at the rotary pump version. It then struck me that the R58 was not a lot more cash.

So a serious question, how many coffees a day should I be making to benefit from an R58?

I want a machine that will last me for years. The idea of a dual boiler seems good as I make quite a few lattes and cappuccinos over the weekend. But how much better is it than a Hx machine?

I also need to make half a dozen or more espressos after a meal when friends and family are here.

I really like the styling of the Rocket machines, which is why these have been shortlisted.

If an R58 is worth the additional cost, I am happy to blow the budget to get this and a new grinder.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

There is a genuine consideration here. Temperature stability is a big contributor to good espresso. A PID controlled dual boiler set up is better at keeping the temperature stable. The R58 will be better than an HX. I'm not sure that the R58 is the best at its price point though. Others will know more than I.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

The problem I have here in France is the availability of certain brands. I am struggling to find a retailer for ECM or Profitec.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Talk to Claudette at Bella Barista. She may be able to get a machine sent direct from factory to you. They have been great at helping me self-maintain my Vesuvius whilst keeping the warranty valid. These machines aren't that complicated. They'll help you diagnose and then send parts if you need. I wouldn't be afraid to buy from them, I'd be sure they wouldn't wash their hands of you just because you're in France.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

CageyH said:


> The problem I have here in France is the availability of certain brands. I am struggling to find a retailer for ECM or Profitec.


+1 to what @Obnic said. Give Bella Barista a ring. I've had a Profitec Pro-700 since 2015 and it has never let me down, with the exception that 3 months (or so, I can't remember) after I bought it the tank water level sensor started to play up, and, instead of stopping the machine all together when water was low, it would just blink in a crazy way. Even with me living in the UK, Jordan from Bella Barista was confident enough to let me do the repair on the machine myself, without voiding the warranty. Thus, a new Gicar controller was sent to me and I did the work no problem. Like said above, their are not that complicated. Usually issues are simple to fix and to diagnose.

With regards to Heat Exchanger vs Dual Boiler, I, personally, would go for a Dual Boiler. I had a brief affair with a Heat Exchanger machine and that did not last very long. Not because the machine was bad, but because I couldn't get on with the cooling flush routine. My drinks were always too hot or too cold. Moreover, as the water in southern GB is very hard, most of us will use a suitable brand of bottled water instead of mains water to avoid having to have the machine descaled. This meant that 150ml of bottled water was ending up down the drain every time I wanted a coffee, which I couldn't bear it. I am, however, confident that, if I had my machine plumbed in and out, I would've got on with the cooling flushing routine and that would not have been an issue what so ever.

With the dual boiler machine, I leave it on the timer in the morning, it heats up, a do a quick rinse and pull my shots. Simple.

For info, I make two coffees a day: during the week, 2 in the morning. At the weekend, one in the morning and 1 after lunch. Sometimes I'd have the odd decaf in the evening as well.

I've been thinking long and hard about downgrading my machine to something smaller that can heat up quickly. So far, I've been unable to find a replacement. The only thing that I have considered after researching a lot has been a La Pavoni. But that has its own niggles. 

Oh, don't forget the grinder. Far more important than the machine, IMO.

Hope this is useful.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

Thanks for the post.

i will get in touch with BB and see what they can do.

It does seem to me that if I went HX, the temptation would be to get a DB in a few years time.

I have not forgotten the grinder. I am quite tempted by a Rocket Fausto, or something like the 65e or a Mazzer Super Jolly.


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

'I've been thinking long and hard about downgrading my machine'

There's a first for everything, never thought I'd hear it mentioned on here, your obviously the rebellious type, good on ya, I like your style .....


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

With my sensible head on, I have found a Giotto Evoluzione R (which has just been serviced) for €1k.

For my light usage, is a DB really worth it? Going up to the Rocket will already be a big improvement.

There is also a Londinium(?) lever machine locally for €1.5k, although I don't think I am mentally ready for that, as I have not researched them at all.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Temperature stability is essential for best espresso.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

Understood.

It sounds like I would have to master the cooling flush technique if I went heat exchanger.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

CageyH said:


> Understood.
> 
> It sounds like I would have to master the cooling flush technique if I went heat exchanger.


Exactly! The only advantages I see in an HX machine:

- Simple design;

- Draws fresh water directly from tank or mains without storing it in the boiler first;

- Easier to descale.

IMO, I think you will be much happier with a DB machine overall.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

CageyH said:


> With my sensible head on, I have found a Giotto Evoluzione R (which has just been serviced) for €1k.
> 
> For my light usage, is a DB really worth it? Going up to the Rocket will already be a big improvement.
> 
> There is also a Londinium(?) lever machine locally for €1.5k, although I don't think I am mentally ready for that, as I have not researched them at all.


if you can go for the Londinium, it will be the last machine you'll need


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Not all HX machines need a cooling flush though as some have a thermosyphon. One of my pals @Sami is in France and he bought a Sage DB after having had an L! and as far as I know, swears by it. I think he had to buy it with the help of a friend in the UK who couriered it onto him


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

Stanic said:


> if you can go for the Londinium, it will be the last machine you'll need


Interestingly, the guy selling it is also looking for a swap with a Rocket R58.

I think I would probably be happier with a DB, but Mrs H will be happier with a cheaper machine.

As she does not drink many espressos, I believe she sees it as a waste of money.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

I have been in touch with the guy selling the Rocket Giotto, and there seems to be something a bit fishy about it, so I am going to stay away.

I have also been in touch with BB, and they suggested a few machines (and grinder combos).

Expobar Leva DB

Rocket R58 + cheaper grinder to fit in with my budget - like a Compak K3

ECM Mechanika + Compak E5

It was stated that the ECM package would probably produce a better shot than the R58 + cheaper grinder.

The ECM does look good, so I have some serious thinking to do. If I want a DB machine, I think I need to dedicate my budget to just the machine, and get a good grinder.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

The general advice here is to go for the best grinder you can afford, and have the machine to complement it. You will get a better beverage from a better grinder rather than a good machine.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

I have read and listened to that advice.

I am thinking of the R58 (or better dual boiler machine around the same cost - so I need suggestions please) and something like the Rocket Fausto.

At R58 price level, the Profitec 700 looks really interesting.

I need a discussion with the wife to sort out the budget, and then I will try and take a decision from there.

It is difficult, as there is almost too much choice!


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

Is the Mazzer Mini Model A time any good?

I have found one second hand for €330, opening the budget up for a Profitec 700 or

similar.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Its fine but seems very expensive if second hand - thats £295 - you could get a Mazzer Major second hand for that price

Also re Bella Barista - god bless them ...... but they wont ever tell you to buy second hand or get a machine they don't stock,



CageyH said:


> Is the Mazzer Mini Model A time any good?
> 
> I have found one s fond hand for €330, opening the budget up for a Profitec 700 or
> 
> similar.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

It is an ex-display model, apparently like new condition.

I have had a look for second hand grinders and I could get a SJ, but it will involve a fair bit of travelling.

There is nothing in the local area of any interest.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

The search continues. The Mazzer Mini has been sold while I have been stuck in a meeting.


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

Been through a few combos, and as @dfk41 says, I find the Sage DB and Mythos combo a very good one. I certainly wouldn't worry about getting the grinder brand new. As long as you get one that's in good condition, it'll probably last you the rest of your life (unless you get upgraditis of course!). They're designed to grind coffee beans all day, every day, in a shop for years on end. Once it's in your house busting out a couple of flat whites a day, it will experience no significant wear and tear.

If you like things to be insulated and efficient, you probably can't do better than the Sage DB. Some are concerned about longevity compared to a more traditional lump of brass. I got a friend to pick one up from John Lewis, who did an £850 price match (because it was in the discontinued red), took out the additional 3 year warranty (giving me a total of 5 years) and had my friend send it to me insured for around £30-£35. (parcel2go or eurosender). I then picked up a mythos through the forum for £800 and had that sent out to me insured also.

So for just under €2000 I've got a pretty sweet setup. Granted if something goes wrong with the DB I'll have the hassle of having to post it to the UK, but I can live with that.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

I was mistaken. The Mazzer was not showing on my mobile internet (the one with a keyboard that I struggle to type on), but it was showing as available when I got home.

It is actually an ex-display model from a supplier I buy my coffee from here in France, and is lightly used and I am told it is in as new condition. So I have bought it.

It might not be the latest and greatest grinder, but for home use it will do me fine until I can upgrade to something like a Mythos. I doubt I will lose much on it when/if I decide to sell it on.

This leave me with more funds in my budget, which will allow me to order an ECM Synchronika next month.

Happy Christmas to me....


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

Another question if I may.

Now that I have the grinder and machine sorted, and Christmas is coming, what are the recommended accessories to go with a decent machine?

As my machine is located close to the bin, I am guessing that there is no point in a knock box, but is a tamping station and pressure regulated tamper worth investing in?


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

No I would get a Knock box, either Rhinowares or the Grindenstein one, not sure on the pressure Tamper Tamping station everyone is different mine will be a rubber one? And scales a good set and Jug


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

CageyH said:


> Another question if I may.
> 
> Now that I have the grinder and machine sorted, and Christmas is coming, what are the recommended accessories to go with a decent machine?
> 
> As my machine is located close to the bin, I am guessing that there is no point in a knock box, but is a tamping station and pressure regulated tamper worth investing in?


This is what I would get, in order of priority:

- Some coffee machine detergent for backflushing. (Please refer to one of the sticky threads entitled "Cleanness is close to goodness" or something like that, by DavecUK;

- High Temperature Silicone grease to lubricate the cam lever when you backflush it; (Check out coffeetime.wikidot.com, also by DavecUK). It will last you a life time!

- A milk pitcher;

- A naked Portafilter (Maybe the Synchronika comes with one, I'm am not sure).

- A VST 18g basket;

- A 58.5mm tamper. I have a dynamometric one, made by Concept Art / Joe Frex. I really like it, but it is not necessary.

- A knock box;

- A tamping station, so you can use the spouted and the naked portafilter. The Bella Barista branded one will do just fine;

- A few Cafelat Red silicone gasket (8mm) (change then if you damage them when cleaning or every year / half year);

- An IMS shower screen;

All of which can be sourced from Bella Barista. Enjoy the journey!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Sorry, I forgot one of the most essential items: Make sure you have a scale to weight your coffee dose and the output. You need one that is accurate to 0.01g or at least to 0.1g. They are usually around £8 from ebay.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

I have some scales and few other bits and pieces.

I appreciate the time you took to post the list. It looks very complete.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

I have just ordered the large Grindenstein.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

CageyH said:


> I have just ordered the large Grindenstein.


What colour


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

Black


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

CageyH said:


> Black


I like Red but it does look very sturdy and a good price.


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Grindenstein are solid and will pretty much become an heirloom item, had one (red) for nearly 5 years and had some serious abuse in that time, probably more so than in most households.

To add to your list:

1: Microfibre towels to keep your shiny purchase clean (wash only in non bio to keep them working as they should, definitely no detergent with fabric softeners, should last years) plus a separate set for cleaning the shower screen or "dirty" end of machine (brown cloths help to keep them separate) never use a "dirty" cloth on stainless steel, may look clean but coffee grounds trapped within will scratch.

2: Some means to measure your milk temperature, either thermometer or stick on variety. I use Temptags which in the home last approx. 3-4 months per jug so a sheet of 4 is roughly a years worth, can be bought from BellaBarista or from Glenn. They don't get in the way of the milk as sit on the outside of the jug, so one less thing to think of when learning to microfoam









3: Some form of either oven chip silicone grid / sheet that can be picked up from hardware stores or something else to stand off your cups from the top of the machine if storing them on top so as to save the inevitable scratching. Key here is to ensure that air can still flow out from machine to warm cups (and not overheat the machine)

4: at least a couple of cups designed for milky drinks (if you doing them) ideally curved bottomed inside so you don't get frustrated in attempting latte art (straight sided / bottomed can take excellent art, just take a bit of getting used to) Pick cups you like the feel of in your hands or float your boat, they don't have to be inkers / D'ancaps / not neutrals etc

5: A small brand new paintbrush about 1" wide to brush any grounds off grinder, also useful in cleaning out side grinder (do not use this brush for anything else)

6: Enough quality coffee of one (type that you like) to practice with; chopping and changing 250g bags will frustrate you dialling in.

Don't forget to buy more milk than you normally do as will be steaming more than you use and running out is frustrating.

Hope of help, am sure others will add to your list









John

Hope of help


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

Jony said:


> I like Red but it does look very sturdy and a good price.


Red would match ny eyes, but clash with the kitchen.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

Mrs H has just approved me ordering the machine early.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

The title of this thread is very misleading, as I have well and truly blown the budget.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

CageyH said:


> The title of this thread is very misleading, as I have well and truly blown the budget.


Bah ha ha! And it only took 25 posts. You've fallen in with bad company mate. Welcome to the forum


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

CageyH said:


> The title of this thread is very misleading, as I have well and truly blown the budget.


you've made the forum happy


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

CageyH said:


> The title of this thread is very misleading, as I have well and truly blown the budget.


Always the case, money well spent.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

I am used to the influence and cost of "upgraditus" as one of my other hobbies is Hifi.

That really can be a slippery slope, and the law of diminishing returns bites hard.

I am glad to have made the forum happy, but you guys have probably saved me a lot of money as personally, I don't see me changing the Synchronika for something else. I have always wanted a coffee machine of this style, and 10 years is a long time to have to wait.

The knowledge on here and the willingness to share it in a friendly way really makes this a good place to be.

The machine should arrive Thursday (Wednesday being a bank holiday). I have an IMS shower screen arriving soon.

The naked portafilter and VST 18g basket will be Christmas presents.

The real necessities will be bought this week.

Thanks again for the help and guidance.

I am sure I will be back with some more questions and requests for helping resolve my poor technique!


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Well your lucky, My 2018 bike will have to wait another year,haha. Plus use to race electric cars as well, and Petrol 1/5 this is a 1/3 of what I use to spend.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

I used to race petrol 1:1


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

Having just read the manual, I now need to look at a water softening device. I have a Brita I can use short term, or I can buy mineral water easily, but I need to look at a long term solution.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

CageyH said:


> Having just read the manual, I now need to look at a water softening device. I have a Brita I can use short term, or I can buy mineral water easily, but I need to look at a long term solution.


Use a bottled water that's ok for coffee machines.

Read the composition and workout the hardness and go from there.

Check the Volvic label and try to source something similar.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

I have just ordered a TP link wifi plug. It seems to be one of the few to be able to cope with the power requirements.

Most of them seem to be rated to about 2kW.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

CageyH said:


> I have just ordered a TP link wifi plug. It seems to be one of the few to be able to cope with the power requirements.
> 
> Most of them seem seem to rated to about 2kW.


+1 to that. I've one of them for that same reason. It's brilliant. The App is very intuitive and works flawlessly.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

After a bit of research, it seems that Volvic is still the best bottled water to go for.

There are others available with less calcium in, but the also lack other minerals.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

My Synchronika is being delivered Thursday afternoon (tomorrow is a bank holiday).

I am getting a bit excited about it.

I had better buy some Volvic on the way home!


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

I have just bought 27 litres of volvic and a baguette for less than €6.

I think a water filter may be hard pushed to beat that in terms of value for money.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

CageyH said:


> I have just bought 27 litres of volvic and a baguette for less than €6.
> 
> I think a water filter may be hard pushed to beat that in terms of value for money.


What cheese and Serano nice?


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