# Tired of classic



## gasdocscott (Dec 7, 2014)

Christmas is coming and the goose is getting fat... or rather I've reached my limit with my Gaggia Classic.

I've had it for a few years now and it's in reasonable shape. I recently changed the rubber o-ring, gave it a good descale, and got some beans from Has Bean. I use an MC2 grinder. However, my shots remain inconsistent, bitter, and increasingly frustrating now I have a 16 month old and a job that gives me very little time in the morning. I can get a decent looking shot from it - double basket, thick crema from a bottomless portafilter, that Guinness effect, but they are always bitter.

Frankly, my wife is fed up of my swearing. I don't really have the luxury of time to spend hours fiddling, plus it takes about a bag of beans to get the grind settings just right. Annoyingly, there's no barista school near where I live. So I'm looking at getting a superauto. Mainly because it'll save me time in the morning, and produce a reasonable shot (that tastes no worse than my efforts). I'm not really interested in milk drinks - just espresso or Americano. I've tried Nespresso machines and the coffee always tastes weak and bland to me, plus I hate being tied into one company.

So, with all that, my short list includes the DeLonghi Eletta Plus @ £545. Possibly the Jura Micro 1, but it looks a pig to maintain. Am I making a huge mistake, or do people have any other solutions?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Get a PID on the Gaggia, along with a brass dispersion plate - and the significantly improved temp stability (and control) should allow you to sort out your bitterness.

Check the various threads on here, and you can fit a PID to a Gaggia pretty easily and at relatively low cost - and it really really helps.

Better chance of getting something drinkable out of a Classic than a Delonghi anyway!!!!!


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Welcome to Coffee Forums UK

Where are you based?

Spending £100 on decent training can get you making coffee better than many coffee shops with the kit you already have

Spending the same amount of money on training and a better grinder will give you a good return on investment


----------



## gasdocscott (Dec 7, 2014)

Thanks both!

I'm based in Leicester. Finding a decent coffee shop is hard enough!

I'll look at the PID mod, but it's still yet another fiddle, and it won't reduce the 20 minutes it takes to adequately warm the beast up!

I'm sort of thinking of using the superauto as my day-to-day machine (usually one double a day) and my Gaggia for learning the craft. I just don't have hobby time at the moment.


----------



## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

I use a plug timer to warm

Up my machine before I wake up so it's been on an hour when I get to use it


----------



## Bruce Boogie (Dec 1, 2014)

I tried coffee from a Jura Micro 1 on a Jura demo, three different strengths of Espresso from it. Very disappointing motorway services coffee.


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

gasdocscott said:


> Thanks both!
> 
> I'm based in Leicester. Finding a decent coffee shop is hard enough!
> 
> ...


I was going to suggest upping the grinder first over a new machine too.

Getting some tuition would be money well spent. I upgraded from a Mignon to a Mazzer SJ and it was like my Classic was a new machine. Unless your going down the route of a machine with a heated group your still going to have to wait 45 mins with most machines. Classic is relatively quick compared to the bigger HX or Dual boilers.


----------



## gasdocscott (Dec 7, 2014)

Bad beans or bad machine? That's part of the issue. I can't go anywhere to test one against what I produce.


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Youri at Limini Coffee is not a million miles from you. Check out his banner and get in touch. He will have you up and running pretty sharpish. Also chat with the guys at Foundry Coffee in Sheffield. They have a wealth of talent who will be able to bring out the best in your abilities.


----------



## gasdocscott (Dec 7, 2014)

Glenn said:


> Youri at Limini Coffee is not a million miles from you. Check out his banner and get in touch. He will have you up and running pretty sharpish. Also chat with the guys at Foundry Coffee in Sheffield. They have a wealth of talent who will be able to bring out the best in your abilities.


Thanks for those (and everyone else who's being extraordinarily helpful)! I just wish Leicester had a coffee culture... Given how limited my time is, I'm not sure I'll get away with justifying a four hour return drive to learn how to make coffee.

I fully appreciate that good espresso takes time, effort and money. But is a DeLonghi really that bad?!


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I'd wager that the grinder is the cause of a lot of the frustration. I had an MC2 for a while and whilst it got me started, it never seemed to give results that were either good or consistent. Things got a lot better when I got a second hand Mini. My Classic had a PID on it when I got it so I never had to worry about temperature surfing and all that. The grinder upgrade made it easier to live with. Worth sticking the machine on a timer if you get up and leave for work at roughly the same time each day.


----------



## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

1) Cheap ikea timer

2) PID - most important, completely changes the mahine

3) training

4) better grinder in the future

Your shots will completely change and you will appreciate the classic.


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Plus if the coffee is always bitter, maybe you're always over-extracting? If you've had it that long and you've been on this forum any length of time I'm sure you have already covered this but if the grind is not right you might be pulling the bitter component out of the coffee by having too much water acting on the grind, which in turn could be too coarse? Trouble with the MC2 is that the grind level can be a bit inconsistent which can lead to never getting the sweetness because even if it's fine enough to get the shot time right, the variance in particles can lead to some bitterness coming through.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

BOFFIN ALERT

Bitter could also be under extraction ( the hump between 18-19% extraction yield is bitter , prior to that sour , then the sweet spot at 19 and beyond )

Brew ratio might give us a vague idea of what's going on extraction wise .


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> BOFFIN ALERT
> 
> Bitter could also be under extraction ( the hump between 18-19% extraction yield is bitter , prior to that sour , then the sweet spot at 19 and beyond )
> 
> Brew ratio might give us a vague idea of what's going on extraction wise .


Good work Spock, I'm still learning.


----------



## gasdocscott (Dec 7, 2014)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but I'm going to give it a whirl: I basically use the MC2 to dose two thirds of a double basket tamped (I weighed this at about 18g, but tbh they're not the best scales in the world). I then run water until the the stream goes very pale - last shot took 20-30 seconds, and about 40ml volume. I got a good thick crema, but the coffee was pretty acidic and bitter.

Now it could just be the coffee isn't great, or just doesn't suit me. I used to use Percol Espresso beans which where quite good, but tasted burnt - which I blamed on the grinder / machine.

This thread does kind of exemplify why my wife is annoyed with my coffee pursuits! Complicated and time consuming (I mentioned the PID mod to her and she gave me the look).

I really appreciate all the tips and help though!! For example, I've even started having a look at grinders. The problem is they all look massive, and that will certainly get me into trouble (smallish kitchen).


----------



## gasdocscott (Dec 7, 2014)

Good God. I've just read that the Fat Duck in Bray serves Nespresso coffee... If I weren't already lying down, I'd definitely need to.


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

A Mignon isn't massive and will knock your MC2 into a cocked hat by all accounts.

If the stream is blonding then you probably are running it too long. You normally want to stop the shot before or at the point where you notice the blonding. After that you could be pulling in the bitter part of the extraction (although Boots' revelation about the bitter part at 18-19EY I didn't know, seeing as I don't know much about extraction yields). There's nothing wrong with 40ml out (I often run my shots to 40g which I take to be roughly 40ml) but it only works if you're not running blond by then. That's where I think beans and grinder are the culprits.

I think you're being unfair on your grinder and machine blaming them for the Percol being burnt. I tried that stuff before I was on the forum and it is pretty much starbux level of incineration!

I live not far from the Fat Duck but can't really afford to eat there so I can't say whether it's true but it seems that a lot of good restaurants neglect the coffee. There was a whole thread on this a while back (maybe that's what you read). The closest I get to Heston is Heston Services!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

gasdocscott said:


> I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but I'm going to give it a whirl: I basically use the MC2 to dose two thirds of a double basket tamped (I weighed this at about 18g, but tbh they're not the best scales in the world). I then run water until the the stream goes very pale - last shot took 20-30 seconds, and about 40ml volume. I got a good thick crema, but the coffee was pretty acidic and bitter.
> 
> Now it could just be the coffee isn't great, or just doesn't suit me. I used to use Percol Espresso beans which where quite good, but tasted burnt - which I blamed on the grinder / machine.
> 
> ...


Ok I'd say if you were weighing you espresso try running the shot so it's say 2-3 g more in the cup to increase the extraction and make it sweeter ...

As I indicated its hard to tell without a recipe or brew ratio

Example dose 16 g espressos made 36 g

Bitterness could also be too high a temperature of water at the time of extraction or too fine a grind . If your getting 40 ml out though that's unlikely

I'd get some decent fresh coffee as without that it's all kinda academic

Then scales

This might help






If this seems like a lot of effort them perhaps Nespresso or a bean 2 cup may suit though . Convenience versus taste is the trade off here


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Are you sure you are tasting bitterness? Sounds like you are grinding too coarse or you are getting some channelling and you could be under extracting, maybe the taste is sourness?

Tbh it's going to be hard to fix if you are not weighing/timing accuratly though. The difference between 20 & 30 seconds is significant. Maybe do a shot and weigh/time it accurately, maybe post a vid of the prep and shot?


----------



## napalmgram (Apr 29, 2014)

gasdocscott said:


> Thanks for those (and everyone else who's being extraordinarily helpful)! I just wish Leicester had a coffee culture... Given how limited my time is, I'm not sure I'll get away with justifying a four hour return drive to learn how to make coffee.


200 Degrees (http://200degs.com/) in Nottingham have started offering courses as well, bit closer than Sheffield. Not been on one (yet!), but the coffee from their shop seems to be up to spec


----------



## gasdocscott (Dec 7, 2014)

Thanks all (yet again!)

I'll try to upload a video if I get time - my wife will actually think I'm crazy! Really a very bitter (perhaps sour) taste this morning, so into hot water and milk it went.

I really appreciate the link to training. Nottingham is very reachable from here, so I think I'll give them a shot. I'll just have to keep quiet about buying a superauto!


----------



## gasdocscott (Dec 7, 2014)

Well if any of you are still interested, here is tonight's short shot:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u93109jtqlx76nz/2014-12-08%2017.46.47.mp4?dl=0

Please excuse the sounds of the baby and missus! I stopped the shot earlier than usual and the coffee did taste a little less horrible!


----------



## Bigpikle (Oct 14, 2014)

I think people would also want to see your full process - dosing the basket, distributing, tamping and temp surfing routine, as that will be a significant factor.

That being said I think th shot is running too fast suggesting the grind is still too coarse, or perhaps not enough in the basket or maybe too light tamp. I'd guess its grind too coarse but thats why seeing the entire routine would help. I find on my Classic that the good shots start more slowly and develop into that kind of stream more slowly and dont blond as much as that at the end.

As already said, once you get some good fresh beans you need to weigh the exact dose in and exact dose out after say 25-27 secs. Then tweak to get something like 18g in and 25-32g out consistently in 25-27 secs. I bet that would give you the sweetness you are looking for more consistently.

Good luck.


----------



## gasdocscott (Dec 7, 2014)

The bottomless filter is making this easier to sort out. I'll try weighing beans (I'd thought it was the ground weight) and tighten the grinder. up.

I'm not sure my camera skills are quite up to the full process!


----------

