# Knobs or Joysticks



## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

What's your preference and why?

Pros and cons of either?

I'm veering towards wanting a new machine with those joy sticks on, they just seem less hassle in the videos I've seen with them in use.

Or does it largely make little difference?


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## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

Oh I've had both and to be honest it's joystick all the way, so much easier than turning a knob


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## Grahamg (Oct 24, 2013)

I thought I'd prefer the levers, but now I've got them on the machine,I think I prefer the old sprung knobs. Or at least four water, less fussed with steam.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Soll said:


> Oh I've had both and to be honest it's joystick all the way, so much easier than turning a knob


Can you temper the steam with joysticks or it's largely on/off?


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## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

@ATZ I mainly just have it on in it's locked position but you can control it


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

I've had both too and it is +1 for me and Joy sticks

I prefer the simplicity of the on/off action and find myself not using them on any intermediate setting


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Joysticks all the way. Had both and love my current ECM joysticks.

Far easier / quicker to operate when steaming and wanting to shut it off at a specific temperature.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Joysticks for me

Quicker to operate


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Joysticks are on my wish list for the reasons itguy and WD mentioned.


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

Joysticks for me, just find them easier. Apart from the stupid Vesuvius no burn wand that makes it cut out. I hate that wand!


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Looks pretty clear cut then!


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## Tanax (Mar 9, 2015)

I find joysticks easier to use, for sure. However, I find knobs to be infinitely better looking and gives the machine a more "classic" style


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## Sparkyx (Oct 23, 2017)

Having used both I can honestly say that joysticks are my favourite. So easy to just knock it on, sit the pitcher down and ghost steam whilst cleaning up any mess made and flick the steam off without having to put anything down.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Sparkyx said:


> Having used both I can honestly say that joysticks are my favourite. So easy to just knock it on, sit the pitcher down and ghost steam whilst cleaning up any mess made and flick the steam off without having to put anything down.


 @Sparkyx what machine do you have?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

ATZ said:


> @Sparkyx what machine do you have?


The clue is in his signature


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> The clue is in his signature


Sorry can't see that on tapatalk


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## Sparkyx (Oct 23, 2017)

ATZ said:


> @Sparkyx what machine do you have?


Rocket Giotto v2 and Londinium R


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## tohenk2 (Oct 11, 2017)

Joystick for me. Had some difficulty switching from the knobs on my Bezerra Galatea Domus to the joysticks on my Vesuvius - but after a few times I got used to them and can temper the steam perfectly if I want to. It just works/responds faster. (And I switched to the steam knife tip plus G3 wand.)


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## tonerei (Aug 3, 2017)

Joystick for me also. That swung it for the Unica for me. Very easy to use. Maybe on the good machines the knobs are fine but steaming with the Classic was dreadful


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

tonerei said:


> Joystick for me also. That swung it for the Unica for me. Very easy to use. Maybe on the good machines the knobs are fine but steaming with the Classic was dreadful


How's it working out for you @tonerei ?


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## tonerei (Aug 3, 2017)

ATZ said:


> How's it working out for you @tonerei ?


I think it is excellent. Was surprised at the size. It is not as big as a Giotto but more or less the same footprint as an Expobar. The PID takes a bit of getting used to if one is switching from coffee to steam. I am terrible at steaming as I have had no practice but seems to have plenty of power. Having the PID and E61 for me makes it a great buy. It is heavy solid and appears well made. The one I got is very well looked after. Have put an ims screen and basket on it. Bellabarista have one at a reduced price in their sale. Not much of a reduction compared to the continental shops but they will throw in coffee beans etc and will demonstrate the machine. Do you not fancy the Giotto in the classifieds ? HX I know and no joysticks but that is some nice machine. Might even get it for a bit less. I expected you to jump on the Expobar that came up. Similar to Unica but has the extra boiler. The profitec was also a brillant buy albeit well above what we were sparring at!


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

tonerei said:


> I think it is excellent. Was surprised at the size. It is not as big as a Giotto but more or less the same footprint as an Expobar. The PID takes a bit of getting used to if one is switching from coffee to steam. I am terrible at steaming as I have had no practice but seems to have plenty of power. Having the PID and E61 for me makes it a great buy. It is heavy solid and appears well made. The one I got is very well looked after. Have put an ims screen and basket on it. Bellabarista have one at a reduced price in their sale. Not much of a reduction compared to the continental shops but they will throw in coffee beans etc and will demonstrate the machine. Do you not fancy the Giotto in the classifieds ? HX I know and no joysticks but that is some nice machine. Might even get it for a bit less. I expected you to jump on the Expobar that came up. Similar to Unica but has the extra boiler. The profitec was also a brillant buy albeit well above what we were sparring at!


Glad it's working out for you. How much of a bind do you find switching from shots to steam and vice versa? Another has come up on eBay for 400 and appears well looked after, but it's 5hrs drive away and no postage option *sad face* Will look into the BB one.

I'm interested in the Rocket but I just prefer the aesthetic of Bezerra and ECM, both made in the same factory but the latter with a bit more German precision/design.

I missed the Expobar, gotta be fast around here!


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## tonerei (Aug 3, 2017)

Can't see that one on ebay. Sounds a very good price. SBDU is a pita for milk drinks. That is the simple fact. But for me who drinks 99.99% espresso I don't care. Budget wise I am happy to go with the switching. Have only tried it twice. Sure if I get better and quicker at it there will be no issue but have read enough reviews that if you are 50/50 on drinks go for DB or HX. The switching and waiting will eventually annoy you. If the budget is tight and you are happy with working a system that gets you through the switching fairly quickly go for the Unica. Don't forget I have limited experience here having used a Classic for the last 6 years!

Maybe just save up and buy a QM Verona. That was the one that impressed me the most in BellaB.









Check out some comments Dave made about the Unica he thought the boiler was a bit puny. I thought being small meant it would heat quicker and unless you are pulling shot after shot it would be fine. At the end of the day I have the machine I wanted at a decent price and have no regrets.

I see this one on ebay. Of course he is higher than the one sold here to make up the ebay fees https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Expobar-Office-Leva-PID-Dual-espresso-coffee-machine-with-IMS-basket-e61-group/253294971403?hash=item3af98e8a0b:g:zuQAAOSwSQFZ~5Me



ATZ said:


> Glad it's working out for you. How much of a bind do you find switching from shots to steam and vice versa? Another has come up on eBay for 400 and appears well looked after, but it's 5hrs drive away and no postage option *sad face* Will look into the BB one.
> 
> I'm interested in the Rocket but I just prefer the aesthetic of Bezerra and ECM, both made in the same factory but the latter with a bit more German precision/design.
> 
> I missed the Expobar, gotta be fast around here!


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## Leoluo (Apr 21, 2017)

When you only drink espresso the Unica is perfect in my opinion.maybe 25 mins to warm up and ready to go. the only drawback is that you can get hot Water for the cups, but it is pressurized and you need to pass through an intermediate cup otherwise it sprays everywhere.

I think if you like milky drinks is a problem. And even worse,if your guests like milky drink is terrible. when one will say dark coffee, the other cappuccino, then after a while... want an other cappuccino, but then the cup is cold.

I had this nightmare and that single day I decided to upgrade. And went for a lever so I would catch two bird with one stone.


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## tonerei (Aug 3, 2017)

I have the machine maybe a week and would concur with Leoleo. The heat up time for espresso is fairly short. That makes it perfect for my needs. The milk drinks I will try again but I notice similar to what he is saying about the steaming. Will try it at max temp of 120 and see what happens. But it would be hell on earth to be swapping drink types at a big party! I see BellaB have their Verona up for sale at £1250 Is that the one for you ATZ


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## dancing james (Nov 29, 2015)

Joystick steam wand has started leaking, just a slow dribble but probably 100ml every few hours in total.

Has anyone got a useful link on how to service them?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

tonerei said:


> Check out some comments Dave made about the Unica he thought the boiler was a bit puny. I thought being small meant it would heat quicker and unless you are pulling shot after shot it would be fine. At the end of the day I have the machine I wanted at a decent price and have no regrets.


A puny boiler won't heat faster (well it will just not significantly -- you're talking a difference of one or two minutes to heat 500ml vs 1000ml). It could affect temperature stability throughout the shot as cold water is pumped into the boiler. Heat up time is largely due to the time it takes to heat the E61 grouphead and portafilter.

Another potential issue with a single boiler which lacks the ability to empty the boiler via a hot water tap (taken from the bottom of the boiler), is that instead you have to empty it through the group (taken half way up the boiler), so when descaling, for example, getting citric acid into the boiler isn't an issue, but getting it out will be a process of dilution (unless you open a fixture at the top of the boiler and syphon it all off). This might not seem like much of an issue at first but if you consider the fact that when you produce steam you leave all of the minerals in the water behind you can see the potential for problems to arise quite easily. With a DB machine you just open the tap and run off some water to refill the tank every now and again depending on how many milk drinks you make to avoid having minerals build up in the boiler which could cause problems beyond your usual scale build up, but with a single boiler set up that isn't a realistic option. Let's say you run it on Volvic to reduce scale or even remineralise your own water to a specific spec you've settled on for taste, and you use it to make two large milky drinks a day, it won't take too long for the extractions to change. Without emptying the boiler the mineral composition that was safe for use in an espresso machine will become saturated with minerals that could potentially cause scale or corrosion, and the mineral composition of the water will be inconsistent from one day to the next until the boiler is completely drained (which would take a lot of flushing as it would again be a process of dilution).

Just to illustrate the point (but I can't be bothered doing the math right now):

Volvic composition:


pH7 (neutral)Calcium (Ca)11.5Chloride (Cl)13.5Bicarbonate (HCO3)71Magnesium (Mg)8Nitrate (NO3)6.3Potassium (K)6.2Silica (SiO2)31.7Sodium (Na)11.6

Chlorides at 13.5 shouldn't be an issue. La Marzocco say it shouldn't go above 30. Above 20ppm can cause corrosion of brass. I'm not sure but I believe high levels can cause sourness in a brew. I've made my own water with magnesium sulfate and I wouldn't want to go over 30ppm with sulfates because I think I got a weird bitterness from them. I use Calcium chloride now along with Magnesium sulfate to keep the ppm of chlorides below 20ppm and sulfates below 30ppm.

Anyway. When you steam a lot of milk with this and use up 250 ml or more of water you are going to see the minerals climb across the board and to get them out you will have to either run the pump for a long time and waste a lot of water to dilute it down to the point the difference is immeasurable or you're going to have to syphon the water out and replace it. Emptying the boiler half way would be a compromise but minerals will continue to rise assuming continued regular use of steam; this will cause the flavour of your extractions to change, and corrosion and scale could be a concern.

EDIT: BACK TO THE TOPIC

Joysticks. Why? Because I want joysticks. They're cool.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

I used to think I prefer knobs but only when I started to work in a commercial environment I really found out how much more convenient and ergonomic joysticks are when doing lots of milk frothing (10-15 litres a day)


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## Pidge22 (May 12, 2018)

Joystick for me..


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Pidge22 said:


> Joystick for me..


Does the Lelit have Joystick?


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