# Recommendations for a home Espresso coffee machine



## saunders400 (Dec 8, 2013)

hi,

I'm new here. Can anyone recommend any good model coffee machines suitable for at home.

i would like one that doesn't have to be plumbed in and if possible with a built in grinder. Although I could always buy a grinder separate.

any info or help you can give would be great.

Thanks in advance.

dave


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Best to avoid built in grinder - will be noticeably inferior to a stand alone one.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Howdy...

How much do you want to spend... And what type of drinks do u want to make. Espresso? Lattes? Filter?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

What's your budget? Need to factor in cost of grinder.


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## saunders400 (Dec 8, 2013)

Mainly Latte and cappuccinos. Between £200-500 but would consider buying 2nd hand.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

You could buy a new Classic and Mignon grinder for that budget - buying these items second hand could cost £300.00 combined.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

The machine and grinder you can get in that price range, Like a Gaggia Classic and Eureka Mignon, will be great learning tools for getting to know how to make espresso... but you are going to get frustrated with the steaming power if you mostly drink milk based drinks. They can be OK for one drink at a time but any more than that and they struggle.

A S/H machine with good steam power would eat up your whole budget by itself.

If you can find any way of stretching to maybe £750 you would be able to jump in with a really good machine and grinder. If you cant stretch to that, something like the Gaggia Classic paired with a Mignon is a great starting point.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Downside of Classic - you have to wait, after pulling the espresso, for the steam to come up to temp. If you're making lots or mainly milk based drinks, this might be a hassle. Solution would be to go for a HX machine that will allow you to steam without having to wait.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Don't forget to factor in a few extras , milk jug, tamper, scales. Oh and cups .


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## saunders400 (Dec 8, 2013)

Thanks for info. I do have a basic knowledge of how to use the machines. I run a cafe and have an Exobar Marcus 2 machine.

if you could give me a few more models to look at and I will try and pick one up 2nd hand.

thanks


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

If you keep an eye on our F/S section a lot of these machines come up in there when people move on to more expensive toys.

Gaggia Classic and Rancilio Silva are the only two real contenders in your budget. The Rancilio has a larger boiler but is a lot more than the Classic and they are otherwise very similar machines.

Slightly more expensive but with much more steam power and stability of temp are things like the Expobar Office Pulser or the Nuova Simonelli Oscar.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Thats a broad range of cash you have...

Ask yourself a few questions,

How many cups a day will you make?

Supermarket or freshly roasted beans?

How much time do you want to devote to dialing in your beans and perfecting your shots/milk?

Only this week we have seen someone shell out a lot of cash on a classic and MC2, only for them to give up after a few day and sell it for a hugely reduced price...

Saying you would like one with a grinder built in would suggest you just want to hit a button and have a nice coffee pop out?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

froggystyle said:


> Saying you would like one with a grinder built in would suggest you just want to hit a button and have a nice coffee pop out?


I think he might be a little more clued in to the process if he uses a commercial machine at work.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Yup, posted that whilst i was typing, doh!


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

For £500 you can get the sage barista express (I may have the name wrong ). Small footprint, built in grinder and good controls


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## 7877 (Aug 14, 2014)

I don't have experience of many espresso machines. In fact only the one!

i started with a rancilio silvia and don't have at least right now any plans to upgrade after a few years with it. It's pretty straightforward machine and seems easy to maintain and mod if you have a desire to. It has a tank to be manually filled rather than being plumbed in.

I have added a PID which improved it considerably....all in all I guess I may well have spent money on something better second hand BUT for home use and not wanting to take up a lot of counter space I think it is probably hard to beat. Fleabay seems to have plenty available.

believe everyone when they tell you to focus on grinder first. It seems sort of counter intuitive as a noob and you expect to shell out more on the espresso machine but that isn't (or shouldn't be) the case.

HTH


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

saunders400 said:


> Mainly Latte and cappuccinos. Between £200-500 but would consider buying 2nd hand.


edited to please others


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## saunders400 (Dec 8, 2013)

Thanks for all the info guys I will my research now.

what is a HX Machibe?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Have a read of this

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?17519-Machines-what-do-you-get-for-your-money


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> If these are your main drinks, then an HX machine would be the correct type of machine for you, definitly not a Gaggia Classic or Rancilio sylivia or machines of that ilk.


What kind of drinks are these machines aimed at then?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Espresso or making occasional milky drinks


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> What kind of drinks are these machines aimed at then?


I guess it all comes down to how many milk drinks you need/intend to make at any one time, I had my Classic for 7 years and the stuff I learned using it has proved very useful with a better setup, yes you'll struggle to make more than 2 milk based drinks at one go or if you wish to steam buckets of milk a la costabuck, but if it's just a single drink or 2 smallish then it will work fine and give you plenty extra for the more important part of the equation which is the grinder.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I can knock out two medium flat whites on my classic with no problem.

If i wait 10 minutes i can knock out another 2, and so on...

The OP doesn't mention how many drinks a day/hour he would be making?

Whats a decent HX machine, 2nd hand gonna cost?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

250+

13 charact


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> What kind of drinks are these machines aimed at then?


edited to please others


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

So for double the price of a Classic you get more steam power and quicker recovery on your water temp...

But if the OP is only making a few shots a day is it worth it??


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I was simply advising the OP on the type of machine suitable for him, based on the drinks he will be making, Lates and Cappas. If he wants good textured milk, ease of use and reasonable quality, with the ability to also easily make the full range of drinks, especially a mix of drinks in one session...then the HX is the easiest. These cheaper single boiler machines were suggested by others and are not ideally suited to his stated usage.
> 
> I don't really want to get into a discussion of what drinks they are suitable for or not....it's not really relevant to this persons post.


The number of drinks he intends to/ needs to make at once are actually very relevant to this discussion, if as previously mentioned it's only 1 or 2 at once then a Classic or Silvia would do this and a Classic with the Silvia wand can turn out very good microfoam which on any machine require some level of technique usually and would leave him far more money for a better grinder, which at the lower end of the market is far more important than the machine. Not to mention that Ebay apart not that many lower priced HX machines come up for sale on here, people seem to buy them and keep them for quite a long time and maybe get tempted to upgrade when something revolutionary like the Vesuvius comes up, and I would imagine that with Fracino's price hike the used market for these will end up reflecting that.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> So for double the price of a Classic you get more steam power and quicker recovery on your water temp...
> 
> But if the OP is only making a few shots a day is it worth it??


Well I think that's now for him to decide.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

2x drinks at a time and the classic will be fine to start.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Absolutely, but i feel giving the OP as many unbiased options would be more productive than dismissing machines without knowing how it will be used.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Absolutely, but i feel giving the OP as many unbiased options would be more productive than dismissing machines without knowing how it will be used.


I've removed my comments...hopefully this makes you happier?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

err neither happy or sad!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> I've removed my comments...hopefully this makes you happier?


Your opinions on many things are very welcome but you seem to be at odds with 99% of people on here about the classic being a reasonable machine to start on


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

see, this is just the sort of thread attitude/arguments/belligerence that really gets me down.

We can edit/change/amend all we like but ultimately this sort of unnecessary behaviour crops up time and time again and frankly i'm really beginning to tire of it of it to the point where I'm not really enjoying being on here as much as before.

It was just this sort of stuff that made me walk away from the UK TT forum where I had been a very active member for a number of years and i'd even been a member of the owners club committee. What sort of impression do we think this gives to new members or lurkers that might be considering signing up?

Come on, can we not be a little more gentle and also maintain a bit more perspective?

This chap has asked for advice and his thread is high jacked with yet another silly petty pointless argument and bad feeling?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

No bad feeling from me to anyone on this forum, i stated that if someone asks for advise they should be given unbiased advise on all machines, you can only do this if you know all the facts, which we do not know as the OP has not stated how many drinks per hour/day he will be consuming.

A member posted that he should ignore the classic and silvias and go for a HX, i questioned this.

Opinions are what make a forum, if we all agreed then it would be very dull on here.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

CamV6 said:


> see, this is just the sort of thread attitude/arguments/belligerence that really gets me down.
> 
> We can edit/change/amend all we like but ultimately this sort of unnecessary behaviour crops up time and time again and frankly i'm really beginning to tire of it of it to the point where I'm not really enjoying being on here as much as before.
> 
> ...


Think you're over reacting a bit. People are debating the merits of a classic for milky drinks.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

TBF to Cam I can see how a new member reading posts like "Removed to please other people" could seem like there is an underlying tension around.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Davecuk frequently spits the dummy, wouldn't take any notice


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Think you're over reacting a bit. People are debating the merits of a classic for milky drinks.


Yes there's probably a little truth in that in as much as I say what I do not just in respect of this thread but more in terms of what i'm seeing around the boards increasingly these days. So yes, in respect of this one thread in isolation it probably does seem a little OTT

Its just that people do have different opinions and that is a good thing but what i'm seeing is that people dogmatically defend their opinions to the point of argument and animosity which is just plain old distasteful

Anyway lets get back on topic shall we?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

It was on topic....


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

Whilst dodging all the flying kindergarten equipment To the OP

I Started with a Baby Class Gaggia (classic in a different shape box) and to be fair to it, it did me ok for a year, its a bit slow for steaming milk and if you want more than 2 x 6-8 oz drinks in one go you will get very frustrated with it, plus most people on here end up doing the Rancilio wand mod as i did because the standard one is dire for micro foam! the quality of the components is what you would expect from a mass produced throw away consumer product, but that's why they are half the price of a Rancilio Silvia. i had one of those as well, it was S/H and found it not a great jump in performance from the Gaggia! sold it after 2 months.

Then made the jump to a S/H HX Machine = Expobar Leva and it changed my coffee making considerably, i became the week link as the machine was far more capable than i was but helped me up my coffee making considerably it lasted over 2 years and was only replaced as i treated my self, i still think this is a good article on HX http://www.home-barista.com/hx-love.html there are plenty of HX machines from Fracino/Expobar/Isomac/Quickmill/Bezzera/Gaggia/Rancilio to name but a few, there are many more. one member on here recently found a Expobar Office control for £280 and it was fine so you don't have to spend silly money. = http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?18087-Office-control

as for Grinder i found the obligatory Iberital MC2 fine for nearly 3 years with the Gaggia and Expobar. they can be had for £80 second hand and you will need to jump up to £200+ (Mignon or Vario) if you want any real improvement over that, you can get some bargain second hand grinders but be careful as some can be past their best the same with coffee machines.

if i knew now what i new when i bought my first machine i would have gone for an HX as once you get into making coffee upgraditis will take hold and you will soon find spending ££££'s on equipment perfectly acceptable









ask most on here


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

CamV6 said:


> see, this is just the sort of thread attitude/arguments/belligerence that really gets me down.
> 
> We can edit/change/amend all we like but ultimately this sort of unnecessary behaviour crops up time and time again and frankly i'm really beginning to tire of it of it to the point where I'm not really enjoying being on here as much as before.Come on, can we not be a little more gentle and also maintain a bit more perspective?
> 
> This chap has asked for advice and his thread is high jacked with yet another silly petty pointless argument and bad feeling?





> Absolutely, but i feel giving the OP as many unbiased options would be more productive than dismissing machines without knowing how it will be used.


No bad feeling, but just so you understand. Pretty every other post about him getting the classic and x etc..no one says anything...these are all unbiased opinions apparently. As soon as I mention something different, I get the quote above. So my opinion becomes, biased (others are not) and unproductive compared to the usual recommendation on here....In essence no point me having an opinion as far as the OP asking for advice is concerned. I did read the OP post, I did know from that his use would be lattes and cappas, I made a recommendation I thought was helpful to him, for his stated usage.

I see far too much of the classic + MC2 type recommendation.....when many times I think someone would do better with a decent used HX and grinder, because of their stated use or ambitions for where they want to take their coffee.. None of this seems to matter when the same old recommendation is trotted out. If I make comment for new people, which I am much less inclined to do. I usually get well Dave uses only high end gear, doesn't understand, not in touch with realities of coffee, gets his stuff free etc.. unfortunately, nothing can be further from the truth. Yes I don't have a real interest in low end gear any more and I feel plenty of yesteryears high end gear (especially HX machines) are becoming available at decent prices....but to call my "opinions", unproductive rather looses out on 30 years experience and the last 10 years where I have used/reviewed/tested more than 50 machines....some cheap, some expensive. (plus quite a lot of grinders....). Many of the changes I forced on manufacturers over the years, you benefit from, but are unaware of.

Often my advice is use FP, drip etc..and keep your hand in your pocket, until you know what you really want...rather than buy in haste and repent at leisure....It's also usually to buy used, unless there is a good reason why they don't want to....but as for machine advice, people need to be careful it does not end up being a sort of "accepted as correct" view for the forum.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Dave I think one issue with your advice is that as I said in an earlier post waiting for a decent used HX machine at a low price to come along can be very haphazard and Classics are readily available and you'll lose very little, if any money on resale when you upgrade, I would advocate spending a lot of budget proportionally speaking on the grinder rather than the machine.

Also sometimes people don't want to go for brewed coffee and save up they want the espresso experience or they already have the gear for brewed and want to add espresso to their arsenal, often people are very limited by budget and/or space constraints- e.g I couldn't fit a Cherub or Heavenly on my bench due to the depth. The issue is do we then tell them that sorry espresso is a richer mans game or do we point them towards an entry level setup which if they like espresso and wish to upgrade or they don't like the faff ( as seen recently) that if bought sensibly and used will lose them more or less nothing when sold on, yes we should and some of us do point out that this is the very lowest level which one can enter the world of espresso on. All that said many members on here have enjoyed years of owning a Classic and made great coffee using it, and realistically how many of us are called upon to make more than a couple of drinks at once every day?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

You won't lose much on a second hand classic if you decide it's not for you or you need something Werth more power. For the average person 100 for machine and 100-200 for grinder is a big enough commitment if they're just dipping their toes


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Charliej said:


> Dave I think one issue with your advice is that as I said in an earlier post waiting for a decent used HX machine at a low price to come along can be very haphazard and Classics are readily available and you'll lose very little, if any money on resale when you upgrade, I would advocate spending a lot of budget proportionally speaking on the grinder rather than the machine.
> 
> All that said many members on here have enjoyed years of owning a Classic and made great coffee using it, and realistically how many of us are called upon to make more than a couple of drinks at once every day?


Having owned a classic, I can say from experience that if all he is making is milk drinks as stated.....I think he will find an HX machine a better option than say a classic.....for ease of use, convenience, microfoam quality. It will be easy to sell if he wants to upgrade.If he doesn't it can grow with him a long way, even to the extend of adding a group head thermometer, if he is lucky enough to find a full E61 machine....now if he sets that as his objective....researches the various machines/prices available and their function...he may indeed decide he doesn't need one and a Classic is for him.

but...at least he will have fully explored the option....seen the top end of what he might want/need...then made a decision in the light of that knowledge. The danger is he simply goes straight down the route of Classic + MC2 or similar, without fully understanding the options.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I re-read this topic to if there was any 'danger' of the OP being mis-informed by the replies, but I can't see anything like.

The OP set a budget with a high end of £500. Quite simply that's not enough for even a S/H HX and grinder unless you get very lucky on ebay, not something to recommend to a newcomer who can't spot a dud.

The advice given was sensible, in that for his budget he could afford the Classic and Mignon, but there were downsides, the milk steaming was brought up several times. It was recommended that he save up more and think about going for a HX by several members.

Advice here should always be questioned, especially if it becomes the status quo. But almost every time I have seen a "what should I buy" thread where the Classic and MC2/Mignon are recommended they are always accompanied by a list of things that are downsides, and that you have to spend more to solve. Infact newcomers are almost always recommended to save more and buy in on a higher ring wherever possible.

In general I think this forum offers advice in exactly the fashion you you suggest.


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