# Extracting too fast with fine grind



## MrLatte (Sep 15, 2018)

Hi all,

So to cut to the chase I sold my super jolly so wont have a grinder for a while but I popped to chadwicks and got some of my favourite beans and they happily ground them down to a typical espresso grind but unfortunately it was too coarse so I popped back down with my classic this time to actually test and we ran the beans back through on a much finer grind but again it took about 5 seconds to start to show some extraction which is normal but the extraction just flew from that point and we got like 36g in a few seconds.

But in all honesty the grinds at this point are really fine, way finer than sugar granules so I started to wonder if maybe the pressure is too high on the machine because after servicing it (gaskets and descale etc) I noticed once the steam switch was turned on and it got to temperature it started to make a loud noise which is basically the water returning back through the OPV into the tank.. so that confuses me because to me if its returning through the OPV wouldn't that indicate the OPV is set too low and increasing the OPV would extract even quicker? I have MrShades PID and I've never messed with the settings it developed the OPV noise after servicing, pid steam temp goes to around 148. I'm waiting for a pressure gauge but just wanted to gather other opinions as I'm getting withdrawal symptoms ?


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Who did the servicing? You could ask them what pressure the OPV was. :good:


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

It is not about pressure, you ground beans are not not fine enough, without a grinder is almost impossible to spot right grind settings.

BR


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Or to confuse matters, they could be ground too fine & causing channelling.

Have you got a pressurised basket you can use while you don't have a grinder?


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## MrLatte (Sep 15, 2018)

Agentb said:


> Who did the servicing? You could ask them what pressure the OPV was. :good:


 I did, I followed a YouTube video and to be quite honest I did find it relatively easy having worked quite a lot on cars, that's not to say I couldn't make a mistake but it just seemed pretty straight forward. For the short time after I was using the Costa Coffee beans and I had bo issues extracting them.. but when he ground them down and showed me the grind size I could see where he was coming from.. I'll have t take a picture and show


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## MrLatte (Sep 15, 2018)

ashcroc said:


> Or to confuse matters, they could be ground too fine & causing channelling.
> 
> Have you got a pressurised basket you can use while you don't have a grinder?


 I'll do a video showing the ground size and then a shot with the naked portafilter, the first grind size was definitely too coarse in my opinion as I could really tamp the grounds down and compress it reminded more of say a cafetiere grind, but the second finer grind was much finer.. but yeah I'll get a video and photos. I did also take a bag of another bean to try so maybe I'll run that through and see if it's much different.


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## MrLatte (Sep 15, 2018)

ashcroc said:


> Or to confuse matters, they could be ground too fine & causing channelling.
> 
> Have you got a pressurised basket you can use while you don't have a grinder?


 Yeah I do have a few, would this be a workable solution for the short term?


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## Pants001 (Mar 13, 2019)

With everything else being the same, did you get a good shot with your Super Jolly?

If yes, we can rule out a few things

1. OPV

2. I assume your dosing the same amount

3. Tamping to the same pressure

4. Same temp on pid kit

Really doesnt leave a lot else other than the beans or grind (And you mentioned its your favourite beans)


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## MrLatte (Sep 15, 2018)

Hi Pan



Pants001 said:


> With everything else being the same, did you get a good shot with your Super Jolly?
> 
> If yes, we can rule out a few things
> 
> ...


 Hi Pants,

Yeah you are right to be honest, having done the service I have tried Raves fudge blend and the rest is mainly cheap Costa Coffee and surprisingly Aldi had an interesting bag of beans and while I never took notice of the grind size I always got a 1:2 ratio over 27/32 secs with my super jolly so yeah I suppose it's a bit quick to look at the machine given I've tries 3 different types with no issues.

But for what its worth, check this grind size. This is the second finer grind which the Chap said this going finer than this really is pushing it to be honest but what would you think?..

https://i.imgur.com/9dYjfxI.jpg


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Let taste dictate grind size, you can't really dial in by looking at coffee grinds with the naked eye.

Dose, freshness and quality of coffee , basket type , strength of drink , required all effect what the grind size is.


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## MrLatte (Sep 15, 2018)

ashcroc said:


> Or to confuse matters, they could be ground too fine & causing channelling.
> 
> Have you got a pressurised basket you can use while you don't have a grinder?


 You know, I've just done another one and I think you're right! When I took my Classic down I had the machine on the floor and of course despite having a naked portafilter i wasnt watching the shot.. I was just watching the scales. Having made another one its squirting out so it could very well be that I've gone too coarse to too fine. I give chadwicks coffee company this though, they absolutely bloody brilliant. I cant imagine many coffee shops letting you stroll down with your coffee machine just to try and get your grind size sorted ? have you guys ever been there turned curiosity? They're now based in cannock just off of M6 Junction 11


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## MrLatte (Sep 15, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> Let taste dictate grind size, you can't really dial in by looking at coffee grinds with the naked eye.
> 
> Dose, freshness and quality of coffee , basket type , strength of drink , required all effect what the grind size is.


 Hey Mrboots,

As I said in my previous reply I do think the other chap was actually correct. I think when I first had my grinds done they where for sure to coarse, I mean you couldn't really tamp it down at that grind, then we go to this grind and having only watched the scales I'm just seeing a fast extraction but I think as the other chap mentioned this could have actually been due to having the grind too fine and it creating channeling which from the other shot I did this morning looks exactly what it's doing.. but given my machine was on the floor when I took it down to chadwicks I wasnt watching the shot through the naked portafilter so I didn't realise at the time. Ahh well, I'll just make do with what i have.. I'll use a hydraulic press if it means I can have a half descent shot


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MrLatte said:


> Hey Mrboots,
> 
> As I said in my previous reply I do think the other chap was actually correct. I think when I first had my grinds done they where for sure to coarse, I mean you couldn't really tamp it down at that grind, then we go to this grind and having only watched the scales I'm just seeing a fast extraction but I think as the other chap mentioned this could have actually been due to having the grind too fine and it creating channeling which from the other shot I did this morning looks exactly what it's doing.. but given my machine was on the floor when I took it down to chadwicks I wasnt watching the shot through the naked portafilter so I didn't realise at the time. Ahh well, I'll just make do with what i have.. I'll use a hydraulic press if it means I can have a half descent shot


 Of course on the outer reaches of coarse and fine you can tell ball park. but the last pic you posted of the grinds , on its own isn't really telling people much. If they think it is , then they are guessing TBH.


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## MrLatte (Sep 15, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> Of course on the outer reaches of coarse and fine you can tell ball park. but the last pic you posted of the grinds , on its own isn't really telling people much. If they think it is , then they are guessing TBH.


 Yeah, I think I remember watching a video where you grind down fine enough to a point where it just starts to clump together so it may have been to do with that, as I say for all I know my grinds may have always been really fine but I've never really paid too much attention, I just grind 18g see if I can extract 36g in 27/32 seconds and repeat like clockwork.

I suppose for now without a grinder it will be trial and error for a while but I'm hoping to correct this grind on this Kenyan peaberry and then I can note down the grind setting chadwicks are using on their super jolly so I can re-order with the correct setting for my gaggia.

I'm very interested to see what my group pressure is as well, the noise when the steam reaches temperature is crazy and it would be nice for that to go back to normal.


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## Pants001 (Mar 13, 2019)

At the end of the day, you really need your own grinder. Trying to match up shop ground coffee and your machine is always going to be a battle.

Im timing a lot of my shots and find on the Sette that even 1 of the micro adjustments comes out to about 1 or 2 seconds difference in shot time.


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