# barista consistency: grind check



## brianj

Hello all, first post here on Coffee Forums. I have worked for over a year now in Costa Coffee, I realise thats me off to a bad start but it was the only job I could get as I had no experience with espresso, and only drink pour-over at home. I am looking down the line to possibly opening my own place and have a question about barista grind-check consistency given the non-tasting but cheerful barista's I would likely be hiring. (Why? because in the market I am looking at, which is a tiny regional city, customer service would trump coffee, especially in the early days of building a customer base, and ive seen first-hand the effect on customers).

So, with the Costa method for checking the coffee through the day you have their 'grind' check which is as follows:

A fixed dose every time of 14g. Shot will be manually stopped in exactly 20 seconds.( During business-as-usual, the volumetric buttons are used). If there is not 60ml at the end then the grinder is adjusted, another shot is stopped after 20 seconds, rinse and repeat until we hit the recipe numbers.

Now my first question. Would it be the same thing to do the Costa check and, instead of fixing the time, fix the brew ratio, ie get a scales out and stop the shot on weight (as in James Hoffmann's "Dialing in Without Timings" ) and use the time to tell us whether to grind coarser if the time had been slower than our recipe, or grind finer if too fast. James Hoffmann uses taste to work backwords having stopped the shot on weight, but like I said, I could not rely on baristas here to do that if i opened a cafe, so they would, like Costa, have to fix the time and adjust the flow from that wouldn't they?

(Since reverting to volumetric mode means we will always hit our brew ratio even if we never changed the grind, fixing time tells us, without tasting, how fast or slow the shots are flowing, and thus how evenly they are extracting. Have I this right? I am assuming no channelling or other flaws of distribution etc for this example. Also I know flow rate only tells us so much about extraction or the evenness of it and that of course it does not tell us things like extraction yield, I will be measuring things like that myself).

As I said, in the article, James Hoffman tastes and then adjusts the grind. But he does not adjust the dose and grind as I have seen indicated in some places. And this last bit is the second part of my question. I have seen it mentioned more than one once, that you cannot adjust one variable in isolation. (For example, see this comment from a reputable espresso brewing guide: "In practice it is not possible to only vary one parameter in isolation but at least if you understand the range of mechanisms at play you can make reasonable efforts to control them and vastly improve your brewing consistency and coffee enjoyment." But in this same paragraph the author had said "you may have realised that the dose could be argued to be a proxy for changing the grind while maintaining shot times". Here I said to myself "Isn't he varying one parameter in isolation here, maintaining time and varying either dose or grind? in much the same fashion as my Costa example or (forgive me if I wrong him!) James Hoffmann when he fixes the brew ratio and just adjusts the grind without adjusting the dose?". Chris Weaver at Coffeegeek in his article "Grinder Adjustments 101" says "If your shot yield is totally off within this time frame, then comes the chance to adjust the *one* variable you should be left with, temperature of the machine aside, grind size." So to my eyes Chris and Costa are using the same method, observing finished drink yield from fixed recipe time and adjusting the grind to get the coffee pouring faster or slower.

I know its possible to successfuly vary both grind and dose if the barista has good tasting skills, see this example, but I'm looking for the simplest most repeatable version for a non-tasting barista, and I can't get away from the "varying one parameter in isolation" as the way to do that. I also think that, since most high-end coffee's will come with a roasters recipe this will negate the need to adjust both grind and dose. If Square Mile specify 20g in a recipe, why are mere mortals varying the dose? Fair enough, its a nice skillset to have, but again I'm aiming at barista consistency here.

I guess I had expected that in looking to open a cafe doing better coffee than Costa, I would be using a more sophisticated "grind" check than them. But for barista consistency, I can't, given my current understanding of things, see a better method. Finally, I know that in some very successful speciality cafe's they weigh the shot as its pouring as well as the dose. But why not just use a volumetric machine when they are proven for consistency? (see here http://www.lamarzoccousa.com/blog/ben-kaminsky-barista-vs-volumetrics/) Anyway, that is a third and slightly separate question. I would appreciate some thoughts. If you were opening tomorrow and were employing people that possessed excellent customer service in place of technical coffee knowledge(I think this is the way to go to build a business), what would your procedure for consistency be for them?


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## DavecUK

The sad thing is your actually thinking it's going to be even remotely difficult doing coffee better than Costa....I would have to kill myself if I were not able to make coffee 10 times better than the crap they serve up at Costa.

Your bigger problem is not going to be coffee, but running the business....and selling all the stuff that really makes money as well as good coffee. In a sense Joe average wouldn't know good coffee if it fell on them, so no need to go overboard. If you want better coffee than Costas, decent beans (not the cheapest you can get), good grinder good machines and Baristas who give slightly more than a rats arse about the coffee they are making. Keep is all clean.

Mainly though your problems are going to be elsewhere in opening and running a business.


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## Jon

DavecUK said:


> In a sense Joe average wouldn't know good coffee if it fell on them, so no need to go overboard.


Sadly true...


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## Jon

DavecUK said:


> Mainly though your problems are going to be elsewhere in opening and running a business.


Bit of an assumption though...


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## brianj

Hi DavecUK. I realise what you are saying. It would be very easy to beat Costa's coffee, and I am well aware of the other sides of the business and how important they are. Still I do not see anything wrong with getting the coffee as good as it possibly can be and I am trying to be systematic about every aspect of things, and barista consistency is one of those.


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## 4085

brian, I think you are thinking like a Costa employee. I think you also know that the coffee they serve is perhaps not very good coffee. Look at the extraction time and volume for example. Many people would suggest that the volume extracted by weight over time is a better check than extracted by volume, in other words the basic 60% extraction rule.

Unless you are very lucky, you will not have a major high street presence where the pressure is on you to pull x shots an hour, and if you can save a few seconds on the process, then fantastic. This will then allow you to concentrate in perfecting your own system. A true barista, would know immediately if he was doling out shite, to some company standard as opposed to creating a drink to his own standards......I would move away from the tick box culture we seem to live in and set your own standards and trust people to maintain your standards. You should not need a check system for this. If someone is prepared to serve sub standard coffee, they will not be working for you very long!


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## Obnic

Well hi. Clearly you are thinking about this and reading up on your topic.

I am always mindful of the professional experts that underpin this forum and so I am cautious about offering advice but....

First: I think you may have made an assumption that isn't quite right: volume in a set time is not the same as hitting a target brew ratio. It measures only flow rate not extraction.

Second: if it's your show, why not 'expect' your team to act up; they almost always will. Tasting espresso is certainly a skill you can develop (like tasting wine) but it's a pretty low entry point. We can all tell sour (side of tongue), bitter (back of tongue), sweet (yummy); burnt (smokey) so I reckon the notion of the non-tasting barista is something you could discourage without jeopardising consistency or service.


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## Obnic

Ha DK you type faster than me.







. I concur.


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## Obnic

Third: on the subject of changing multiple variables....

Varying dose up or down is a means of tuning intensity or balance in the cup.

If you shrink your dose, your target weight in the cup will also shrink and so you tune the grind in order to hold your extraction time.

Once you have a balanced flavour in the cup, then you'll tune brew ratio, time and all manner of other idiosyncrasies in order to find what in your view is the best expression of the bean as roasted.

So no, you're unlikely to change only one thing at a time but yes you are trying to be certain that you know what change actually influenced the in cup taste.

...and yes, I am aware of exactly how up my own jacksie that all sounds but there's truth in it and reward.


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## brianj

Hi dfk41, thanks for the reply. Probably I should never have mentioned Costa, i can see it casting a shadow on this whole thread, and the thought I have put into it. My aim is not to engender a "tick-the-box" culture, but to have consistency and to have measurement as an important part of that. I know for a fact that hiring a non-barista with a great personality and giving them some decent training and a sytem for checking the grind will build a business 10 times faster than a bland but knowledgeable barista. Thats why Im trying to lock down a grind check. There is just no way around it approaching the business like this.


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## jeebsy

YOu'll probably find that certains beans are best at certain doses, so you'd establish your 19.5g dialling the bean in initially. After that you'll just adjust grind size to keep the shot within your desired parameters.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/379298876408487936


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## 4085

brian, I still maintain, that a proper barista would rather eat his own puke than serve up a sub standard drink. I suspect the trouble is, there are too many people around who think being a barista is a 3 day course at prufrocks and a certificate! I would be offering candidates the chance to prepare you some shots on the equipment you have. Make sure the grinder needs dialed in of course and give them several different beans which will all need treated differently. As k them to make their signature drink and 2 you ask for. You will soon see who is a barista, and who just has a certificate!


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## brianj

Thanks Obnic, informative, and along the lines of what I'm looking for. The multiple variables things is what I am working with in my own time as a barista who is learing and trying to improve, but from the business side of things, from the off, going for boutique beans, I will be aiming, in the beginning at least, to stick to the roasters recommended recipe which should be possible if my machine and grinder are speciality spec, which they will be. The roaster has done the legwork in terms of dose and brew ratio and time. Why try and second guessJames Hoffman or Steve Leighton. In time my skill should reach this point, but this post is not about me really. It really is the barista check that is bugging me. I have explained my business case for this. Assuming barista is taught to dose/distribute/tamp properly, what is so wrong with fixing the time at the midpoint of the recipe and changing the grind to get the flow rate right?


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## Mrboots2u

Welcome

There are a few actual baristas ( Callum , Fran , shortshots and mr upshot to name a few ) who I'm sure can give you some valuable experience on how to keep quality and deliver a good work pace and flow ( as opposed to making drinks at your own pace at home ) , whilst keeping the consistency between members of different skill levels .

Hopefully they can pop and and give you some real live experience of balancing quality , speed and customers expectations in a cafe environment


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## Obnic

Nothing, provided that (1.) the dose, grind, time recipe results in a target brew ratio not a set volume of fluid, and (2.) you taste to verify this tastes good.


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## Obnic

Agree with you on 'personality can be trained but training cannot be retrofitted with personality'. Where you thinking of opening up? Anywhere near me







SW London


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## DavecUK

FFS, grind check, If a "Barista" doesn't know when to adjust a grinder without having a grind check....then go get a real Barista. As for worshipping at the altar of Hoffman and Leighton...theyr'e just roaster, they don't know the machine your pulling the shot on, the grinder your using, the temperature of your shot or anything else. They just roast coffee as a business, to earn money, which is fine to do.

If making coffee is this much of a problem....and your thinking of opening a coffee shop???? It should be the least of your problems....most of your money will be made selling food and snacks anyway.


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## brianj

sorry for the double post


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## brianj

I don't think, generally, enough people understand this point in terms of the effect these people have on customers and how much its worth to the bottom line. On the other hand I have left more than one café because of the stench of sophisticated barista persona. Also I am looking to open in a tiny city, Cork, in Ireland, and a)personality is what people want and for daveUK b) there is not the supply of baristas who would know what they are doing hence the big deal about the check and also im fully aware of other areas of the food and business admin being my greater worry.


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## Kyle548

The point my esteemed forum-mates are trying to make is that if your just following a set recipe and hitting numbers, then your just a cook in a school canteen.

If you are actively and fluently taking advantage of the situation to create something new, then your a chef.

For example, my current batch of Rave Cuban taste good at 20g in, 25-30 out in about 25s.

If I set the grinder for you, then chances are, anyone on this forum could make an acceptable shot.

As a barista though, even if the grind was waaaaay too tight, you would know when to stop the shot and still make a great espresso.

As a good barista, you would factor this in and adjust variables to get a similar shot.

Although, let's face it, for most people, a bean to cup with fresh beans and a regularly cleaned grinder would be enough of a taste improvement over costa to justify regular visits to a coffee shop.

The best thing about Costa is their cake display anyway.


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## Mrboots2u

Good luck with your venture , I own a business ( nothing to do with coffee or food ) where we have to take on people and train them from scratch as generally there isn't a huge fluid work force and you can't just pick stuff up in a day that we do . Also a lot of people with experience come with pre conceived ideas of the" right "way to do things and aren't open to new ideas or change .

We employ on personality and people who can engage with people and then try and train the skill on top. You can train a motivated intelligent Person with new skillz , it's very difficult to change people who are nt interested in learning or talking to customers .

Don't 3fe run barista courses in Dublin that could could perhaps pick some stuff up from and the use to train other people?


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## Jon

Mrboots2u said:


> Good luck with your venture , I own a business ( nothing to do with coffee or food ) where we have to take on people and train them from scratch as generally there isn't a huge fluid work force and you can't just pick stuff up in a day that we do . Also a lot of people with experience come with pre conceived ideas of the" right "way to do things and aren't open to new ideas or change .
> 
> We employ on personality and people who can engage with people and then try and train the skill on top. You can train a motivated intelligent Person with new skillz , it's very difficult to change people who are nt interested in learning or talking to customers .
> 
> Don't 3fe run barista courses in Dublin that could could perhaps pick some stuff up from and the use to train other people?


A helpful response.

But I wonder about this forum at times though.

It seems some just want to show how little others know relative to them. We're all here for broadly the same reason - a genuine love of coffee - so I don't understand why some in this thread feel the need to speak down or belittle someone trying to do something good for the world of coffee.

I think it's better when those with knowledge share it in a friendly way for the good of coffee and those that love it.


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## Charliej

Some very good advice given so far, one thing to throw away from the off is set volume of fluid in 20 seconds, 20 seconds is really too short a time to be pulling 60ml of espresso in, even the Italian Espresso standard specifies 25 seconds for 60ml of espresso from 14g dry weight.

You should know by now ( I don't know how or if this is done at Costa) that the grinder will need setting at the start of the day, particularly if running with a full hopper of beans, it will also need adjusting throughout the day to maintain quality. One way to deal with this more easily could be to run an On Demand grinder so that you are never have a large pile of ground coffee going stale in a doser.

The best suggestion given so far is training your staff properly, get the best training you can afford both for yourself and any staff, send any new staff for training too, unless they can prove to you they know the job backwards. Your job though is the hardest one running your own business, you need to be juggling everything to make sure you deliver a much much better product than the chains, to a degree that even the biggest coffee dunce will notice the difference, also at a cheaper price than the chains and still be able to pay your staff and all business overheads and make a living yourself. Maybe even do some small business related training yourself.


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## jeebsy

jonc said:


> A helpful response.
> 
> But I wonder about this forum at times though.
> 
> It seems some just want to show how little others know relative to them. We're all here for broadly the same reason - a genuine love of coffee - so I don't understand why some in this thread feel the need to speak down or belittle someone trying to do something good for the world of coffee.


Sorry about dfk


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## Kyle548

Or do this, if you must employ charismatic anybodies - for each shift, have at least one trained barista who knows what he's doing and have him lead the team of less versed staff.

He can answer any questions they have, fix grind, should it be wrong and importantly, should someone order a specific drink, such as a flat white with a ristretto from your guest beans - as an example - he can do that.

As for the grind check, have him set the grinder up with three shots at the start of the day, something like 20g of coffee for 32g of espresso in 27s - which is the 3rd wave standard and tends to make a sweet shot.

Check with scales and every few hours, or 30-40 shots.

Of course, your trained barista should have ultimate veto about what the specifics are.

At the very least, get all of them barista training.

They should know what a real shot looks and tastes like- the should know what a blonding shot looks like and the best time to stop a shot, even if it hasn't run the full time - or it's running too long.

If you read up on HB, you will see generally the shot will blonde at about 30g(all things being optimum), so even if a shot runs for 1m, in general, if you stop it at blonde point, it will be within the weight range - and might even taste good.

Often they taste much more mellow and relaxed, in fact.


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## coffeechap

jonc said:


> A helpful response.
> 
> But I wonder about this forum at times though.
> 
> It seems some just want to show how little others know relative to them. We're all here for broadly the same reason - a genuine love of coffee - so I don't understand why some in this thread feel the need to speak down or belittle someone trying to do something good for the world of coffee.
> 
> I think it's better when those with knowledge share it in a friendly way for the good of coffee and those that love it.


This is very interesting! If you go onto any forum and ask advice about a subject that by virtue of the forum, the very members on there, are very passionate and knowledge (sometimes to the extreme), then you are going to get a very focused response to the question.

In this case the OP has already intimated that the standard of the barista is not that important as the availability of very good baristas in their locality is sparse. They have therefore pretty much answered their own question in the opening gambit and subsequent responses, I.e they really want to have people with great personalities that hopefully can be trained in the essentials of making good coffee.

We the collective here, predominantly strive for perfection, which is a lot easier when time and the pressures of queues are not against you, we do not have to interact with anyone else and are therefore excluded from customer interface ( guests and significant others excluded of course) and we may not value the customer interface concept of coffee as a coffee shop might. However what the collective on here know is coffee excellence and imparting that knowledge to those not in the know is not the easiest thing either and sometimes you have to be blunt and to the point. Everyone shares their knowledge in different ways and we as learners will respond to information in different ways and each have different preferences to the way we would like to receive information, in an ideal world we could have filters that translate the comments into our preferred style before it hits our screens.

Unfortunately this is not the case so users of the forum sometimes have to put up with sarcasm, humour, bluntness, kindness, helpfulness, patience in order to get the answers they seek. Asking a question about shot quality on here is akin to asking about tyres on a road racing enthusiasts forum, sure an ok tyre will do a job, as will an ok cup of coffee, but no-one will be singing about ok, they will be singing about the optimal tyre for the track and conditions, the one with the best grip that provides longevity that can eke out that precious tenth of a second! That is what we want that tenth of a second in espresso terms. If you wanted mediocre you probably would not be on here.

The OP has clearly done research and is keen to instil consistency into the product that they will be serving. One of the most valuable lessons I ever learned in my coffee journey is the value of scales, as these will be essential when following shot recipes from coffee roasters as they will prescribe input and output weight parameters, therefore the periodic check for consistency and the dialling in of the grinders should be done via the weight of the extracted shot. The taste also plays a significant part as well as the margins. The big brands stick to lower doses than we would probably use I.e 14g as it keeps the margins tight, roasters will prescribe bigger doses per shot as it means you will order more coffee from them. What is important is for someone who really knows what a shot should taste like to help you set up, it could be that a great shot that can cut through milk and provide excellent espresso can be achieved from 14g where a roaster specifically suggests 20g only the taster would know this and getting to that that taste point requires ALL the other parameters to be correct. Once you have your own specific recipe profile, you will need to dip qa from time to time and train and motivate your team to replicate that recipe.

Above all good luck in your new venture


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## brianj

Thank you for taking the time to post that coffeechap, some great info there. I knew it would seem like I was trying to reduce the coffee to a numbers game and yes its true, I would not open without at least one personality star, the hell what they know about extraction yield. But at the same time, I care greatly about providing a great product and have done a lot of research and am constantly trying to improve my understanding about espresso. The point you make about passionate enthusiasts providing advice for the very best product but not considering the restraints of business-as-usual really cuts to the core of my question. I follow Colin Harmon's blog with a good while and know even he has had to sacrifice some percentage of his ideal set-up for workflow and barista consistency.

Kyle548, thanks for your reply, appreciate it. I think that is the way to go, a mixture of a top personality working with as good a barista I can find who can keep the coffee under control. Anyway, that is probably everyones ideal opening their own shop, but I have been in shops who only had the latter. Some here may prefer that, some may not. Depends on the total experience you are looking for when you go to a cafe, and also the market that cafe is pitched at. If I were opening a brew bar, I would have it all of the latter, but I'm not.


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## 4085

jeebsy said:


> Sorry about dfk


jeebsy, under what right do you have to apologise for anything I post. this coming from a man who offers a suit as a pay it forward gesture, then does not bother sending it?

OP, yes, some on here will mop your fevered brow, some will not. But, under whatever guise advice is offered, there are usually scraps to be gleaned from it. Costa impose their own set of rules, as they are a multi national and it is important for them that a customer can visit and branch and in the world, and receive a cup off coffee to the required standard, hence the need for testing grind etc etc.

What i was trying to say, is that you are not (yet) a multi national. You only have to worry about one shop and no doubt, you will be in it for great lengths of time. baristas are not grown, they are developed and if you select the right one, they will build their own team around themselves. Your checks maybe needed initially, but anyone who can do the job half competently, will not need this assistance that you seek. If you employ the wrong people to do the job, then the buck stops with you. Choose the right team and with your direction, let them get on with it. it is called management!


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## jeebsy

dfk41 said:


> jeebsy, under what right do you have to apologise for anything I post. this coming from a man who offers a suit as a pay it forward gesture, then does not bother sending it?


I was being sarcastic.

Sorry for not sending the suit yet but almost all my stuff (including the suit) is in storage while I'm in the process of moving house. I've had a look for it but it's not anywhere easily accessible. All going well I'll be unpacked in 6-7 weeks so it will be sent on then.


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## Obnic

jonc said:


> I don't understand why some in this thread feel the need to speak down or belittle someone trying to do something good for the world of coffee.


Sincerely hope my posts don't come over that way - far too realistic about my own abilities to claim any high ground. Just trying to help parse some useful stuff from all the 'noise' about espresso making, just as others here patiently do for me.


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## 4085

Jeebsy, no worries. Boxing gloves are hung up for a few days now ! Good luck with the move


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## Obnic

jonc said:


> But I wonder about this forum at times though.


I did too after reading your thought.

On balance, I like the fact that folk on here are unguarded when they post questions, and others answer these posts with conviction based on personally acquired knowledge. Particularly because these same people seem willing to devote inordinate amounts of time to sharing what they have learned with anyone trying to find their next step on the journey. I suspect conviction and generosity of this type usually go hand in hand with a bit of p*ss take, blustering or occasional exasperated vent. Call it 'tough love' and it all falls into place. Good challenge though.


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## Jon

Obnic said:


> Sincerely hope my posts don't come over that way - far too realistic about my own abilities to claim any high ground. Just trying to help parse some useful stuff from all the 'noise' about espresso making, just as others here patiently do for me.


No not at all.

Just hacks me off when someone comes on along for advice and essentially gets abused.

Not you!


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## Charliej

jonc said:


> No not at all.
> 
> Just hacks me off when someone comes on along for advice and essentially gets abused.
> 
> Not you!


Jon, it all depends on what you mean by abused, as has been previously stated the collected body of knowledge amongst the forum members is huge and diverse and focused on the quality of coffee we make, so someone who is in way holding up Costa's working regime as a a good example will get called on this in some way, as would a McDonalds employee on a chefs forum doing the same, this is because the business model is very different, it is focused on serving the same result at any of their venues rather than absolute quality. Some people are more blunt than others in offering this advice.


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## Jon

Charliej said:


> Some people are more blunt than others in offering this advice.


Agree, although blunt seems to move towards rude sometimes - especially some of the responses to this chap.

Anyway, I just think the bluntness/rudeness could alienate lots of well-meaning people who want to join the coffee journey we're all on.

I know I have been tempted just to not bother using this forum - and if it wasn't for meeting, training with and liking Glenn, and some of the more friendly members on here there is no doubt I would have just given up on it based on the snobby hostility of a few.


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## coffeechap

Isn't part of the beauty of an eclectic bunch of people chatting about coffee, exactly that! We are all different and some of those that are the most blunt happen to be the most generous as well, diversity is the wealth of the world!


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## coffeechap

Also find it a bit rich jonc that you comment on the attitudes of people on this forum and yet you have been a member since 2010 and only recently came back on and the majority of your posts have been selling a lot of your equipment ! or trying to buy other equipment, or commenting on this thread about people who give quite a lot more to the forum than you have. Just saying it like it is.


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## Jon

Sure - fair point. Can't (and won't) argue that.

But I'm active in other forums - and I feel that the elitist nature of some here is incredibly intimidating - and suspect that's why I (and probably others) have been less active here.

I think it's worth considering.

[i've been politely and respectfully asked to not get into any more discussions with members over this - so I won't.]


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## charris

Jon,

maybe some the answers to you were a bit on the heavy side but to be honest I have not found this forum elitist at all but actually I have found it the most helpful of all forums I participate on various subjects. I find that there is a very friendly atmosphere here and people will get out of their way to help. try to post more and hang around and I am sure you will change your mind on this.


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## Jon

charris said:


> Jon,
> 
> maybe some the answers to you were a bit on the heavy side but to be honest I have not found this forum elitist at all but actually I have found it the most helpful of all forums I participate on various subjects. I find that there is a very friendly atmosphere here and people will get out of their way to help. try to post more and hang around and I am sure you will change your mind on this.


To be honest, it wasn't stuff said to me, more seeing other people getting owned for common misapprehensions / their 'man on the high street' coffee perspectives.

This past week I have seen similar stuff and it just sits badly with me. I generally feel knowledge is a gift not a weapon - and saw it being used by some as the latter.

I have decided to not get into it, but to post the stuff I'm thinking about, ask the questions - and of course answer the ones I think I have enough knowledge on.

I really appreciate you taking the time to encourage me to stay involved though. Thanks!


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## 4085

But if there is not a diversity of opinion, just think how boring life would be. If the op wants us all to agree with him that a multi national companies system of checking its grind consistency to ensure shot quality is good, then he should not ask for advice on a forum. No one measures output via volume which therefore renders the system redundant. That was tried to be explained before any raised voices and not taken on board.


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## Jon

The second post (first reply) was pretty disparaging.


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## 4085

Jonc, please stop needling me. I am not going to bite sonny jim, so learn a lesson and back off a bit and let's restore the karma a bit


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## Jon

Say stupid things, get picked up on it. I'm subscribed to this thread so unfortunately I see what you write. It's going to get pretty dull unsubscribing to threads because you're asserting opinion as fact again...

In case you weren't sure:

Opinion: "...he should not ask for advice on a forum."

Opinion: "No one measures output via volume"

Unsubscribing from thread...


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## 4085

Thank goodness you are un subscribing , perhaps now the op can come back to the debate and get some more thoughts to his problem


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