# Sage DB v Expo Brewtus - Q & A thread



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Ive been asked to start a separate thread away from the main Sticky.

All questions /discussion here please : )


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

Gary, I know you've taken the Sage at a reduced price, but if you were choosing between the 2 machines and they're the same price, which would you buy and why?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Ive been asked to start a separate thread away from the main Sticky.
> 
> All questions /discussion here please : )


Thanks Gary , questions and answers one here , might be useful for you when tying up the final review . As opposed to writing it and the getting questions after .

Geordie good question !


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## soundklinik (May 31, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Ive been asked to start a separate thread away from the main Sticky.


You've been asked?

How can you compare an overpriced car made for masses to a Jaguar or Rolls Royce?

They both drive, but the similarity ends there doesn't it?

Reliability?...LOL


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

And we're off...









I've no idea how the Sage performs, but I think Gary would have the integrity to say if it wasn't as good as his Brewtus, regardless of any sweetener Sage may have offered.

Does look like a dishwasher though.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Soundlink I asked him to start it , so we could post questions and it help inform the end review of brewtus vs sage thread . No conspiracy , honest . People had lots of really good questions but they they were taking the thread of course a bit . Plus it was set up for Gary to post as per first post on there . And the thread much like a lot of Glenn's reviews was being kept for the though of the OP . Cheers

Ps I'm now going out for a couple of hours , please play nicely .....


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Be interesting to know how available spares are if and when things go wrong out of warranty. Do Sage plan to carry spare parts and for how long?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

soundklinik said:


> You've been asked?
> 
> How can you compare an overpriced car made for masses to a Jaguar or Rolls Royce?
> 
> ...


I don't think this attitude is helpful now. Gary, someone whose knowledge is well respected in here, was asked to do a review and the machine performed admirably. There shouldn't be any question about impartiality as the deal on the machine came to light long after the review started. And Gary definitely isn't the masses, while the machine is fundamentally easy to use I can't see too many housewives saying over dinner the finca la sarchi shot that morning was noticeable better with 57% preinfuson for 10 secs.

For me the only issue now is long term reliability, the machine seems to be very capable.

The lack of mention of the smart grinder seems telling though...


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## GS11 (Feb 20, 2013)

I'm concerned by this review as Sage have provided Gary with an attractive discount to retain the machine.

In the interests of a fair impartial review on the forum, I don't think it proper for a manufacturer to offer financial rewards to reviewers.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

GS11 said:


> I'm concerned by this review as Sage have provided Gary with an attractive discount to retain the machine.
> 
> In the interests of a fair impartial review on the forum, I don't think it proper for a manufacturer to offer financial rewards to reviewers.


Unless the deal was on the cards at the start I don't think that's an issue. Gary had the machine for ages before Charlie got offered his deal. They'd have to sell the machine as ex demo anyway so makes sense for Gary/Charlie to get first refusal.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

GS11 said:


> I'm concerned by this review as Sage have provided Gary with an attractive discount to retain the machine.
> 
> In the interests of a fair impartial review on the forum, I don't think it proper for a manufacturer to offer financial rewards to reviewers.


Let's be fair here , there was a massive ground swell for Gary to a review do this machine side by side with the brewtus.

Which he has spent time one , a lot of us pushed him to do this . Which was brave given the emotion a lot of postings on this subject have caused .

I respect Gary's opinion as a long standing member here and don think it ( buying the sage ) in any way qualified his review one way or another .

Please can we Keep this non personal


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

What a load of hot air and expected nonsense! Listen, if Gary chooses to keep the Sage over the Expo, then there will be reasons. He stated, that he could arrive home, turn it on, make 2 cups, clean it and be sitting down in 20 minutes. He has clearly stated, that each machine has its merits. If anyone has the cheek to suggest that Gary would be swayed by an inducement, then you are even more stupid than you make yourself look on here. I would think the Sage would also sell for around £800 under the circumstances.

We all know reliability going forward may become an issue. As far as I know, Sage are not carrying spares, so read into that what you want. This thread was to ask questions, and not about the integrity of one of only 2 members to have achieved 5000 posts.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

As far as I understand, reviews were posted and in the public domain long before any offer was made for the reviewer to keep a machine.

This practice is commonplace as the stock offered for review can no longer be sold as new - therefore an amount of depreciation is written off

The costs to restock / refurb a product are not inconsiderable (even if it is only labour time, carriage, cleaning products)

Discounts are applied off net costs (not gross marked up retail price)

I'm sure reviewers for future products could be offered to keep the machines.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I think Gary will say what he thinks. I think he's an honest bloke.

I don't think Gary would be swapping his machines if the Sage was crap, and I do think on a financial basis he'd have been foolish not to take up Sage's offer. If you do the maths you'll see why. My estimate is that he will have paid, at most £600, possibly much less.

If Gary says the Sage is OK, and if Sage offered me an ex-demo (ie. barely used) machine at a huge discount, I'd take it up immediately. If I was buying new at full price? No. For exactly the reasons I've stated a few months back.


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## Padder (Dec 14, 2012)

My concern over the sage would be long term ownership. How reliable will it be? Is it over complex? Can parts be bought quickly and cheaply enough? Will it be supported by the manufacturer long term. "Traditional" machines like the brewtus, rocket, etc. all use standard parts which are cheap and easily bought. They're also easy to understand and repair. The sage may make a fine coffee and if I'd been offered one for a couple of hundred quid I'd have snapped their hands off but no way would I pay full retail price for one.

I think these will primarily be bought by people who won't really use them and probably sell them them on in a year or two so expect some to come on the used market soon enough.


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## GS11 (Feb 20, 2013)

Glenn said:


> As far as I understand, reviews were posted and in the public domain long before any offer was made for the reviewer to keep a machine.
> 
> This practice is commonplace as the stock offered for review can no longer be sold as new - therefore an amount of depreciation is written off
> 
> ...


Thanks Glenn for clearing up the issue of manufacturer discounts provided to reviewers.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Geordie Boy said:


> Gary, I know you've taken the Sage at a reduced price, but if you were choosing between the 2 machines and they're the same price, which would you buy and why?


Ill cover that in my closing summary


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

GS11 said:


> I'm concerned by this review as Sage have provided Gary with an attractive discount to retain the machine.
> 
> In the interests of a fair impartial review on the forum, I don't think it proper for a manufacturer to offer financial rewards to reviewers.


Im sorry but thats not how it happened, the bulk of my 'review' was done prior to me asking them if I could buy the machine at an ex-demo price. I pushed them , not the other way around


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

If reliability is an issue then I find out soon enough, I have thrown about 250 shot through it so far without issue.

Im not going to disclose the terms of buying the machine off Sage, however they have offered a 5 Year warranty - now would they do that if they didn't believe in the product?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Can we try and keep the questions to the Machine and its performance rather than a debate


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Wow, this post when off topic quickly!

I've got a question, when can come round for a brew?

Spence


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

This afternoon/early evening?!


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## Padder (Dec 14, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> If reliability is an issue then I find out soon enough, I have thrown about 250 shot through it so far without issue.
> 
> Im not going to disclose the terms of buying the machine off Sage, however they have offered a 5 Year warranty - now would they do that if they didn't believe in the product?


I'm talking long term reliability. My fracino is 10 years old. I saw someone recently selling a 20 year old gaggia. These machines are tried and tested to stand the tests of time. I'm not saying the sage won't, just that it hasn't been proven yet. As for the 5 year warranty, is that a standard warranty? Is it backed by a warranty company? Who is to say the company will still be around in 5 years? If they don't sell enough it's unlikely.

As I say, it wouldn't be for me but if some want to try it I can understand that. Like I say, I would have taken a punt at a massively discounted price


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

This may sound like a flippant question but it isn't ........

Which one is aesthetically more pleasing , and which one does Laura prefer, design wise , and taste wise.

Does she also make coffee in your house , or does she not dare?


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Please do not the questions revolve around the price paid for the unit

The questions should be about the performance / extraction / steaming of the Sage Dual Boiler vs the Expobar Brewtus

Comments not on topic may be moderated within this thread


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

I think all the reviews on here have been very positive for the sage which may not have been to everyones liking!

Issues about longevity of the machine but then that's the same for any new product.

And bear in mind it is still 100-200 more expensive than the expobar depending where you purchase it. And I couldn't have stretched my budget to the sage

Lastly if the sage get people into producing good coffee that would nt have otherwise is a good thing surely! And its obvious it does that!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Without wishing to sound rude , is there a question in your post for Gary ?


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## GS11 (Feb 20, 2013)

Back on topic.... Would sage sell the dual boiler wihout the white glove service at a discount? Not everyone would need this service.


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Without wishing to sound rude , is there a question in your post for Gary ?


Nope there wasn't sorry.

But would like to know one reason to buy the sage over the expobar?

And one reason to buy the brewtus over the sage?

That's if its not already answered


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Ok I'm going to address some of the points/questions and just as information Myself and Gary have been communicating quite a lot over this review period discussing our thoughts and findings.

1. Spares: Sage themselves will only be carrying parts like the naked portafilter and water filters. Coffee Classics are their appointed service agents who will be carrying the spares. I don't think there will be much of an issue with any of the pipework as every pipe that heated water touches is made of stainless steel as are the two boilers.

2. Longevity: How many other manufacturers of espresso machines offer such a long warranty period free of charge? That alone should show that they are confident about their product. A lot of you will not be aware of this, Breville in Australia and New Zealand is nothing to do with the toaster and kettle brand in this country that's a licensing deal and why the machine is branded Sage for the UK and Europe. Breville Australia have actually been making espresso machines for quite a long time, at least 23 years to my knowledge, Glenn may know more on this. However like any machine only time will tell, handbuilt in Italy does not confer any guarantee of quality, after all Italy has a less than stellar reputation for electrical devices you only need to look at how bad many Italian cars have been quality wise over the years. Building something in China does not automatically make something of inferior quality, whilst in China working a few years ago I got to see a couple of their industrial parks and the factories making high end professional audio equipment were amazing, huge light and clean, far far better than some I have seen in this country. If the staff are trained to build a product to appropriate ISO quality standards then there should be no issues on quality. I would suggest that many of you with expensive branded tv's go and look at the label saying where they were made.

Another point that needs addressing here is the question about how long will Sage be around as a brand. Sage (UK) is owned by Breville Australia and due to the licensing deal previously mentioned couldn't use their own brand in Europe and I'm pretty sure Breville as a company are going nowhere.

3. Just to reiterate neither myself or Gary were offered any financial or other inducement throughout the reviewing process, I was offered the chance to purchase the machine by Sage around 2 weeks ago and was gobsmacked myself when told how much, and can truthfully say none of you would have turned it down and I also spoke to Gary about the deal I was offered, I have been upfront with Site admins and moderators and even phoned 1 mod to ask if I would need to declare an interest in future when mentioning the machine. Like Gary that is all I am prepared to discuss on this subject. Except to say that the notion either of us were swayed by an inducement is deeply offensive.

4. To address Soundklinik's rather ludicrous post if you were to compare espresso machines to cars. In order to find one that could be considered a "Rolls Royce" then you would have to look at 4 maybe 5 manufacturers, LM, KvDW,Slayer,Bosco and Synesso only 2 of which are Italian. Jaguars are in fact mass manufactured vehicles, and some were even thinly disguised Fords and over the years don't have the best reputation for reliability. I think if one were to start comparing the espresso machines in a similar price bracket the only way would be to say that the Sage is something like a Nissan Skyline or Honda NSX very technical but very easy to drive whereas the machines like Expo, Rocket et all are more like the older style "drivers" cars such as a Porsche 911 which make you work hard to get the results but to some may ultimately be more satisfying.

5. Is the Sage overly complex and hard to repair? The short answer is no the clever stuff is in the electronic control parts of the machine and standard practice these days in any product with such control units, such as cars, is to junk the original and install a new one, other than that the rest of the machine is pretty standard, and well proven design, Bezzera have been using electrically heated groups for a while now, many manufacturers of multi boiler machines feed their brew boilers pre heated water via an HX in the steam boiler, Brewtus does this. PID control of temperatures is again a well proven technology from industrial applications originally. Use of stainless steel boilers, pipework and portafilters again is nothing new LM do that. In fact none of the technology the Sage offers is radical and new, what is new is the price point at which they are offering it.

6. To answer Bootsy's question about the Sage's aesthetics. I only had this thought of this a few days ago, but as we all know the general standard and attitude towards coffee amongst the general populace in NZ and Australia are way way higher than here, so much so that per head of population you will find a far higher percentage of people own an espresso machine of some description so much so that any machine is regarded as a "kitchen appliance" how bling bling and shiny it is and that reason is why the Sage looks the way it does so as to kind of fit in, in a kitchen a bit better. To address the whole deal of using the word appliance as a derogatory one, in the strictest definition of the word all any of us do is use our machines, not matter what they are, as an appliance. To put it in different terms you can spend anything from a few hundred to many many thousands of pounds on a stove, but however much you pay would you regard is as anything but a kitchen appliance. This is because we are all used to seeing a stove in every kitchen but an espresso machine is seen as a luxury item here.

7. The question of at full price which machine would I buy. Hand on heart it would still be a hard choice, even having the knowledge of the Sage that I have now it may even come down to flipping a coin lol. If you had asked me this before I got my hands on the Sage I would have said the Expo without blinking.

8. To answer GS11. I have made the suggestion to Sage that they would potentially reach a larger number of customers if they were 2 offer the machine in 2 packages. One for retail outlets like John Lewis, including the white gloves service as a "premium" package but rebrand white gloves as tuition in your own home and secondly a package for the specialty coffee machine retailers that doesn't offer the white gloves service but is a couple of hundred pounds or so cheaper, JL could even offer both packages.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

kikapu said:


> Nope there wasn't sorry.
> 
> But would like to know one reason to buy the sage over the expobar? Milk texture
> 
> ...


There are many many pros and cons to both machines


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> This may sound like a flippant question but it isn't ........
> 
> Which one is aesthetically more pleasing , and which one does Laura prefer, design wise , and taste wise.
> 
> Does she also make coffee in your house , or does she not dare?


Laura misses Brewtus already! But not the milk drinks, she mentioned they are far superior due to the texture.

She lets me make the coffee but the Sage is easy enough for her to learn pretty quickly , like 30-45 mins at a guess


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Padder said:


> I'm talking long term reliability. My fracino is 10 years old. I saw someone recently selling a 20 year old gaggia. These machines are tried and tested to stand the tests of time. I'm not saying the sage won't, just that it hasn't been proven yet. As for the 5 year warranty, is that a standard warranty? Is it backed by a warranty company? Who is to say the company will still be around in 5 years? If they don't sell enough it's unlikely.
> 
> As I say, it wouldn't be for me but if some want to try it I can understand that. Like I say, I would have taken a punt at a massively discounted price


I cant imagine me wanting the Sage to still be my machine after 10 years. I hope espresso will have advanced further by then.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I have realised so far that both myself and Gary haven't had a lot to say about the Smart Grinder so here are some thoughts.

Neither of us have a grinder which is a fair fight for the Smart, other than my RR55 which I paid less than a Smart costs, so any comparison isn't going to be in the Smart's favour. An MC2 or Baratza Encore would probably be a fairer comparison.

The dreaded cut-out or stalling after heavy back to back use is caused by it having a thermal cut out-no surprises there. That said I ground 500g of beans to a ballpark espresso grind, as back to back as I could manage, for a friend who I gave my old Cubika plus to at Xmas. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to keep grinding with no pause time when doing this as it did begin to become a hot and smelled hot too. The only other comment I can make here is again referring to the Aussie market where there are better "domestic" grinders sold by appliance manufacturers that we have here, Sunbeam to name but one ( some models are rebadged as Graef in Germany) so the Smart was designed to sit at the top level of that Market, where we don't really have anything like it that is primarily aimed at home users here. The Smart isn't designed with a heavy duty cycle in mind, hence the thermal cut out it has, but in most domestic settings you wouldn't encounter the over heating issue.

Does it function as intended? Well for the smaller domestic pressurised portafilter machines it will work fine without the shim installed and would then also work fine for coarser grinding for pour over, drip or FP etc. Once the shim is installed it will restrict the grinder's ability to perform well for most methods of making brewed coffee, but it will also then work better for espresso grinding my view is that in grind quality it is no better and no worse than an MC2. Where it does score over it's nearest (brand new) priced competition is the electronic dosing which is far more accurate and reliable than an MC2 and from what I have read the Rocky doserless and the Mignon.

It is very easy to set the amount you want by first increasing the number of shots or cups wanted and then fine tuning with the less/more function. It's certainly less noisy than an MC2, but a man having an un-anaesthetised circumcision with a rusty pencil sharpener blade would make less noise than that.

It is very easy to get to the burrs for cleaning simply unlock the hopper, which engages the shutters on the hopper so your beans don't fall out and then just twist the upper burr carrier to unlock it, it comes with a stiff plastic bristled brush to clean the burrs and exit chute with, its also very easy to remove the lower burr to clean it and underneath it. The grind path seems to be a more or less straight drop out from underneath the burrs with a plastic star to push the grinds round and over the exit chute, the supplied brush fits easily up the chute for cleaning it out, but the best method I found was to remove the lower burr and then just use the vacuum cleaner hose. I didn't measure the retention but it certainly seems less than an MC2 retains. There is an interlock on the hopper and throat so the grinder won't operate until the hopper is locked in properly.

The portafilter holder works pretty well and will hold it in place hands free, mine arrived without a grinds container( which is now on it's way to me) so I haven't yet tested that. The grinds container is supposedly airtight, I can't vouch for that, which would be useful for anyone who pre grinds coffee to take to work as they could just take it in that.

If anyone has any more specific questions I'll try to answer them, or point you at Gary or Coffeechap.

To summarise:

This grinder is a bit of an oddity in the UK market being a domestic grinder priced at £200, in the brand new price terms I would say it has 3 main competitors the MC2 £50 less with delivery inc, the Rancilio Rocky doserless £20-45 more, and the Eureka Mignon at £80 more. The MC2 and Mignon do have the advantage of being stepless whereas the Sage and Rocky are stepped . The Sage is probably the easiest one to buy in person from your nearest John Lewis branch and an extra warranty taking it to 5 years in total is available pretty cheaply, and if your branch has none in you can always click and collect as well as being available online from several places. If you want an MC2 for under £150 inc VAT then your only choice is Happy Donkey, Mignons are available from more places than the MC2, Bella Barista and Machine Espresso to name just 2.

If you are one of the type of person that absolutely must buy everything brand new, but haven't got the extra money for a Mignon and really hate the look of either version of the MC2 and don't want a Rocky then the Sage is well worth considering.

It is far easier to repeat setting on the sage because of it's display and control functions, as far as I can remember there is no real difference between the MC2 and Sage as regards grind quality, I've never used a Rocky so can't comment on that, and the Mignon hands down has the best grind quality of the bunch even if it is very clumpy at finer settings.

Personally I wouldn't buy one I would rather spend my £200 on an ex commercial grinder and refurb and service it myself, but I am by nature an inveterate tinkerer. If this were not the case then I would probably opt for a Sage over the Rocky or MC2 simply because of the ease of use.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Does anyone have any questions left ?


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

So the grinder is a good option as an entry level grinder but no match for a royal or rr55 which isn't a real surprise. A fair appraisal.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The grinder is perfect for a non-Connoisseur coffee drinker , just wants half decent lattes and cappas. The dosing mechanism and electronic are pretty good, the problem is under-powered motor and choice of burr set.

xmas day it did an 'ok' job for making post dinner milk drinks. I struggled to get amazing pure espresso shots from it - mainly because its quite clumpy


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Gary, did you preinfuse much using the Expo? Is the Sage miles ahead in this regard? Does preinfusion actually make a difference? Jury seems to be out on it.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

In my head it would be nice if my mum or sister came round and could make coffee at my house without having their hands held.

The Expo is fairly easy to use but weighing output would put them off a bit. The volumetrics on the Sage would overcome this if they could just push a button and the appropriate volume of water would get pushed through.

The main barrier is the grinder though - "tare the portafilter on the scales, weigh out 20g of beans into the basket, put them in the grinder, start the grinder, thwack like a demon, pump the camera lens hood, take the lid off the hopper and give it a sweep with the pastry brush, thwack some more, check the output is about right then tamp" - the Smart grinder looks much more likely to pass the mum test but then we've got a divergence in how much faffing we'll tolerate for coffee.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Gary, did you preinfuse much using the Expo? Is the Sage miles ahead in this regard? Does preinfusion actually make a difference? Jury seems to be out on it.


In terms of control over and repeatability of preinfusion, not including the E61 group's inherent preinfusion, the Sage wins hands down. In general the longer the preinfusion the faster the back end of the shot seems to run.

I've found that playing around with preinfusion time and pressure you can alter the mouthfeel of the shot, Every now and again I keep trying to pull an entire shot at lower pressure than normal, around 7.5 BAR, by setting a very long preinfusion time and playing with the pressure percentage, the problem is that I never seem to remember to try this at the start of a bag of coffee once it's dialled in, so at the moment the jury is still out on this experiment.

I have had some good results by starting off a shot normally using the manual button and then towards the end of the shot pressing and holding down the manual button which runs the pump at preinfusion pressure and running the shot to completion that way. I still feel, after almost 3 months with the Sage that I'm only scratching the ground in some areas.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The volumetrics on the Sage need to be retested again, I found a variance in my last set of tests which could be down to it needing a clean and descale as initial tests were very accurate and repeatable.

The double shot button - setting it to pull for e.g 30 seconds is awesome, press a button walk away , or steam milk + setting the 1 shot button for 5 seconds as a 'flush' function is also brilliant. These features make for a slicker, faster workflow and easier for a noob to use.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

In term of preinfusion = yes it makes a difference! The preinfusion time (a) and preinfusion % (b) are additional variables which can give you 2 cups of espresso which are like completely different coffees in terms of both mouthfeel and flavour. You can go to town on (a) and (b) and either enhance desirable attributes in the coffee , or decimate coffee into something bizarre - try 60 seconds @ 55% for example, 20g into 20g - my god nasty!!!!

Even set-and-forget of 5 seconds of preinfusion @55% adds a forgiveness factor which can correct defects in shot prep -again easier for a noob. Its like having stabilisers


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The current set up


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Stabilisers ftw


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

wow been away for the weekend with phone off and no internet! (quite nice really) so just caught up with the thread, I would like to add that I am really thankful for both Gary and Charlies time in what has been quite an interesting appraisal and machine by machine test, it takes a lot of time to properly evealuate any equipment, which made me decline the opportunity, so hats off to you both.

With regard to potential impartiality of either member involved in the tests, it is just plain ridiculous, having met them both and read the countless posts that both have done on this forum, their integrity and honesty are pretty clear, Charlie has organised group buys and been prepared to answer any questions about the machines, Gary (one of the most knowledgable members here), has given up time and energy at a time where personal circumstances would have prevented many on here doing the task and has delivered a step by step unbiased appraisal, which for a skeptic as I am and one of the original opposition of the Sage has proved invaluable, so thankyou to you both.

Grinders wise I have the following comments on the Sage, it is what it is folks, having tried one out for quite some time now, i will say it is head and shoulders above the MC2 in delivery and functions, however the grind consistency is no better or worse, unlike the MC2 it has to be shimmed to work effectively for espresso which then negates the other feature of being easy to switch between brewing methodology as the coursest setting is still within espresso parameters. It is not in the same ball park as the mignon or mini, nor is the grind consistency as good as a rancilio rocky, however it is much easier to dial in than the MC2 and the rocky. Compared to a commercial grinder (used) at the same price point then it is a no brainer, if you have the space get the commercial, but as gary said as a functional grinder thats compact and does an ok job to meet the minimum standards expected by most on here it will do the job. Lets hope Sage can take the technology from that grinder and put it in a bigger grinder, then there would be a proper challenger in the Decent grinder category.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I have to agree totally with Dave's last comment on the technology used in the Smart Grinder. I do think it's a crying shame that many people, without even the lowest level of knowledge any member of this forum has, will have gone to John Lewis and come away with an extremely capable espresso machine and the Smart Grinder, a little like buying a lovely sporty looking car without doing any research and then discovering that it only has a tiny 3 cylinder diesel engine under the bonnet. I would imagine that quite a few of the grinder and machine combos have been returned to John Lewis as "it won't make good coffee" or "isn't fit for purpose" when it's the grinder that is the weak point

Both the grinder and the DB are an interesting entry to the UK market as they are aimed as high end domestic machines amongst all the Delonghi's, Dualit's and none commercial Gaggias, which is a category of machine that doesn't really exist in the UK, most of the popular machines here will generally have been originally developed as a light commercial machine( with the exception here of the L1 which Reiss designed with the home user in mind). I think it will be interesting to see if any other manufacturers primarily known for "domestic appliances" in the UK decide to start marketing machines they have sold in other countries for a long time, Sunbeam being one of these.

Just for a little comedy value it would be interesting to see who could get dialled in for pourover from an espresso setting 1st an MC2 owner with their stepless worm drive or a Smart GRinder owner with his grinder shimmed, my money is on the Smart Grinder I think it would be far faster to whip the hopper off and both burrs out, remove the shim and reassemble and then get to your pourover grind than it would by winding the MC2 adjustment screw by hand. Maybe we have a new event for a forum day lol.


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

Gary many thanks for all the time and efforts spent reviewing the machines.

One of the things that really struck me about the final review of the Sage was the comment "Id expect to be replacing (substantial bits of) the Sage in 3-5 years". Were there any particular things that made you say this? What bits did you have in mind? Has the machine missed a beat during the time you've had it or is it the lightweight appearance that it's going to have when viewed against the Brewtus?

The reason why I ask this is because I've only ever seen it for sale with a 2 year warranty as standard (I notice you got 5 years), so to say you expect it to fail in some way just outside of the standard warranty period just resonated with me - I am an Engineer though









Obviously no-one knows how long it's going to last until it does actually fail!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Nice question Geordie, there has been substantial chatter on the "other forums " around the perceived reliability on previous models by Breville in the USA. So which bits Gary ?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The bits Im referring to :

1. Steam lever - feels flimsy, moves around in its bushing - when you're used to a Brewtus its un-nerving.

2. Hot water knob - the same. Although I rarely use this.

3. Pump . The rate I use the machine I would expect it to need a replacement maybe 3-5 years , I dont know the quality of it tbh.

4. Buttons. always more likely to have issues over a solid brass lever with you can lubricate.

I believe JL have the longer warranty as an option?

The machine hasn't had any issues at all, there is an occasional drip from the hot water spigot , but I think this is condensation within the tube. Ive no idea how much use the machine had prior to me getting it, I was told very little.

Ive only chemical backflushed it once and not actually descaled it yet.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Geordie Boy said:


> Gary many thanks for all the time and efforts spent reviewing the machines.
> 
> One of the things that really struck me about the final review of the Sage was the comment "Id expect to be replacing (substantial bits of) the Sage in 3-5 years". Were there any particular things that made you say this? What bits did you have in mind? Has the machine missed a beat during the time you've had it or is it the lightweight appearance that it's going to have when viewed against the Brewtus?
> 
> ...


Youre welcome to come have a look on 28th too


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I believe JL have the longer warranty as an option?


£28 for an extra year, though I'd guess whoever is behind Sage's warranty will probably do a deal as well

I'm off all day now so don't mind coming round on the 28th for a look


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

We could share a cab into town then! Im free from say 12 onwards. Hit us up with a PM to arrange


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Although I haven't had the top off the machine I am told that both pumps, for those that didn't know it has the main vibe pump and a smaller one to fill the steam boiler, are both made in Italy and used on other well known brands of machine so consequently will be an easily available part, and no reason to assume it will be any worse or better than the ones used in european machines.

The steam lever on my machine feels fine and has no movement the way Gary reports, again the hot water knob seems fine to me.

The buttons again who knows until someone get's a failure but again I would imagine an easily available part from electronic supplies companies such as RS or Farnell.

I remember reading a post from Dave Gubbin( he also worked on the launch of the original machine in Australia) on HB or one of the Australian forums saying that the machines had been tested for an absolutely ludicrous number of cycles and not failed. There is no reason to assume just because it's made in China that it's build quality is inferior workmanship.

Regarding the "lightweight" appearance lets be real about this folks how many people pick up their machine and move it around on a frequent basis, 99% of the time they will just sit there on your bench, however, lightweight composite materials are not necessarily weaker than a traditional all steel chassis- the aerospace industry has been using composites for both civilian and military uses with great success.

To address Martins point about the previous machine in the USA. The original machine was designed in Australia with input from former Australian BC and WBC competitors, as well as from various other coffee professionals and members of other forums. It was designed from the ground up to use a 240v AC electrical supply, as that is what is used there. When they decided to launch the machine into the USA a large number of components had to be changed to work on 110v AC which doubles the current drawn by the machine so crucial parts like the heater cartridges, boiler elements and pumps as well as the electrical supply to the electronics, so it was not a trivial matter to make a USA spec machine. Higher current draw can also lead to greater heat being generated by parts of the machine.

There are also other factors at play regarding the perceived reliability of the machine in the USA. Firstly there is a much higher tendency to complain publicly and loudly about the smallest problem with a new product in the USA, Sage/Breville are not the first company and won't be the last to encounter this issue and the same problems noted in the USA don't seem to have cropped up as much anywhere else the machine is sold. Secondly a lot of the complaints originated and were amplified by the Home Barista forum, various members of which seem to consider themselves the "coffee elite" and arbiters of what is a good product and what is not. Anyway this machine the 920 version is a totally new version of the Dual Boiler and one would hope also improved. It is still an odd machine out in any market except the one it was originally designed for, we don't have any equivalent machines aimed primarily at the high end domestic market, the manufactures of Rocket, Expobar, ECM, Izzo etc all still label their smaller machines as semi-professional hence the prosumer descriptor applied to them.

I haven't yet descaled mine and with my water hopefully that won't be for a long time yet-the machine does have a function that tells you when it needed. As I've had my machine longer than Gary I have chemical backflushed 3 times up to now and as suggested in the , very well written manual, backflush with plain water every day, which is so easy with the built in cleaning cycle, select the option, press a button and walk away.

I agree with Gary's conclusions on the functionality provided by the microprocessor controlled functions, and really do wish that they had provided a way of overriding the power saving and auto power off- I've developed a habit of just prodding one of the menu buttons every time I go in the kitchen.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> We could share a cab into town then! Im free from say 12 onwards. Hit us up with a PM to arrange


If I'm coming down on my own I guess meeting up at yours would be easiest as I don't fancy Birmingham centre car parking charges, they were extortionate back when I was a student so god knows what they are like now.


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## badger28 (Jan 5, 2013)

The car park at Andover Street / Fazeley Street, Digbeth is £2.50 per day. Easy access from the A38 and only 5 minute walk into town once parked up.

I have parked here many times and never had a problem, saying that Digbeth isn't the best area in Birmingham so always worth being careful with valuables etc if using.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Charliej said:


> Although I haven't had the top off the machine I am told that both pumps, for those that didn't know it has the main vibe pump and a smaller one to fill the steam boiler, are both made in Italy and used on other well known brands of machine so consequently will be an easily available part, and no reason to assume it will be any worse or better than the ones used in european machines.
> 
> The steam lever on my machine feels fine and has no movement the way Gary reports, again the hot water knob seems fine to me.
> 
> ...


Hi Charlie, im sure there is a way of turning auto off, Off! It was a setting for offices etc I remember sage emailing me something. Will take a look later.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

How far are you from New St?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jeebsy said:


> How far are you from New St?


5.3 Miles. .....


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> How far are you from New St?


If you're looking for a cheap fare from London, remember to check out Chiltern Railways from Marylebone. Normally cheaper than Virgin but only slightly slower


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

badger28 said:


> The car park at Andover Street / Fazeley Street, Digbeth is £2.50 per day. Easy access from the A38 and only 5 minute walk into town once parked up.
> 
> I have parked here many times and never had a problem, saying that Digbeth isn't the best area in Birmingham so always worth being careful with valuables etc if using.


Thats a bargain for the day. There are spaces pretty close to Saints/ Brewsmiths/ St Paul square for a few quid more, but much more convenient


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