# Duo Temp Pro+Smart Grinder Pro or Barista Express or higher end stuff?



## ddoyle

So I looking to upgrade my crappy Delonghi Magnifica ESAM4200 and I've decided to go the Sage route.

I don't have a budget, but I do like good value for money and hate diminishing returns.

My options are...

*For value*

Barista Express

Duo Temp Pro+Smart Grinder Pro

*Higher end*

Dual Boiler+Smart Grinder Pro

The Oracle

The dual boiler and the oracle have lots of parameters to play with compared to the cheaper options, but will they make a big difference to the end result, the fixed dosing of the oracle puts me off it a little.


----------



## joey24dirt

Looking forward to seeing the responses. I'm busy with kids right now but will give my views later


----------



## adz313

Hi @ddoyle - what's your reasoning for going the Sage route?

I'm sure I'm not the only one who will wonder/ask this (and I'm happy with my DTP).

The general consensus is to buy separates rather than devices with integrated grinders (although have little experience with this - others can no doubt expand), but this might depend on your personal circumstances/desire to be involved in the faffery that comes with it.

Before getting the DTP (and Sette 270), I went through nearly buying a number of more expensive options (DB included), but decided the DTP was sufficient for my needs (for now!) - I'm still doing pour over as much as espresso, and the Sette makes it fairly easy to flip back and forth


----------



## ddoyle

adz313 said:


> Hi @ddoyle - what's your reasoning for going the Sage route?
> 
> I'm sure I'm not the only one who will wonder/ask this (and I'm happy with my DTP).
> 
> The general consensus is to buy separates rather than devices with integrated grinders (although have little experience with this - others can no doubt expand), but this might depend on your personal circumstances/desire to be involved in the faffery that comes with it.
> 
> Before getting the DTP (and Sette 270), I went through nearly buying a number of more expensive options (DB included), but decided the DTP was sufficient for my needs (for now!) - I'm still doing pour over as much as espresso, and the Sette makes it fairly easy to flip back and forth


Because of good reviews, good price and I like the look of the products. Anything would be better than my Delonghi Magnifica

Initially I was going to go with The Oracle for convenience and consistency but the fixed dosing put me off. It also doesnt leave me much room to learn and improve with so many things automated. On the other hand it would be easy enough to use for my Girlfriend to make me coffee









I'm not sure if I'd want to spend as much as you did for a grinder, how much of the espresso quality is down to the grinder and how much of it is down to the extraction device?


----------



## adz313

@ddoyle - there are people far better placed to guide you on that question, so I will defer to their wisdom on that.

The old adage s**t in, s**t out probably holds true though!

(I got the sette at a discount, and not the weigh version, so spent a more comfortable price on it)


----------



## ddoyle

adz313 said:


> @ddoyle - there are people far better placed to guide you on that question, so I will defer to their wisdom on that.
> 
> The old adage s**t in, s**t out probably holds true though!
> 
> (I got the sette at a discount, and not the weigh version, so spent a more comfortable price on it)


Ah, lucky you







Yeah you're probably right, but would a grinder costing twice the cost of a Smart Grinder Pro produce coffee that tastes twice as nice?

The grinder in my delonghi magnifica is driving me crazy, I used to put 18g of beans in it which it would grind no problem and it would continue for about another 2 seconds after, but now its stopping way to soon even with grind time/dose at the max, I reckon its only grinding about 14-15g at a time no mater what coarseness i set. So now I use smaller cups for my americanos. Hence the reason I want to upgrade.


----------



## DaveP

> but would a grinder costing twice the cost of a Smart Grinder Pro produce coffee that tastes twice as nice?


Nope.. but its all about throwing extra money for 'marginal' perceptions.

But I heard it on the grape vine that there may be a very little used Sage Smart Grinder Pro up for sale soon.


----------



## joey24dirt

Right kids in bed lol....

I think first you need to try and ask yourself if you really want a machine with all the bells and whistles and also how likely are you to maybe want all that stuff in the future. If you do then look into the Dual boiler. If not then the DTP is a great machine.

I have a DTP paired up with a refurbished mazzer SJ. Great set up. I did have a sage grinder for a while but it didn't really live up to what I wanted so I upgraded.

Lots of other members have the eureka mignon matched up with the DTP and also are really happy.

Have you looked into the DTP much? There's been a few sell in here recently for really good prices so might be worth a look, or just buy new lol. There's a good bunch of us love those machines so will be here to help if needed


----------



## ddoyle

My girlfriend thinks I'm crazy wanting to spending so much for a hot beverage. I want the bells and whistles only if it justifies the extra cost by producing much better coffee.

Would it be right to assume that the Barista Express is basically a DTP with built-in grinder? I could get the Barista Express for now, and get a better grinder later. I do like the fact that the Express has a pressure indicator.


----------



## joey24dirt

I worked out the costs one day. Roughly it would cost between 50p-70p to make a drink way better than any of the chain coffee stops. Obviously there's the initial outlay but totally worth it even if it's just the satisfaction of making your own. For me that's part of the reason I make my own, because I like to make it 

I can't comment on the barista express as I haven't used one but you see a lot for sale so that tells me something. Not trying to put you off though.

Stuff like the pressure indicator shouldn't really make much difference. What I have learnt from this site is that you're far better weighing your beans going in and weighing what you get out within a rough timescale. Pressure gauges, or lack of, have never made a difference to the quality of the drink. It's all about the grind.

Say you have a budget of £500 (half the price of a DB) you can get a DTP and possibly a new mignon which would put you in good stead for making awesome drinks. You would need a few little extras such as scales, decent tamper and a few daft bits but hey you've saved yourself £500 if considering a DB lol.

Just my thoughts though haha. Obviously I'm a DTP owner so will always sing their praises


----------



## igm45

ddoyle said:


> I'm not sure if I'd want to spend as much as you did for a grinder, how much of the espresso quality is down to the grinder and how much of it is down to the extraction device?


Grinder has a larger impact than the machine, I would spend the larger part of your budget on a grinder and go with a DTP and upgrade the machine later if you want to.


----------



## ddoyle

joey24dirt said:


> I worked out the costs one day. Roughly it would cost between 50p-70p to make a drink way better than any of the chain coffee stops. Obviously there's the initial outlay but totally worth it even if it's just the satisfaction of making your own. For me that's part of the reason I make my own, because I like to make it
> 
> I can't comment on the barista express as I haven't used one but you see a lot for sale so that tells me something. Not trying to put you off though.
> 
> Stuff like the pressure indicator shouldn't really make much difference. What I have learnt from this site is that you're far better weighing your beans going in and weighing what you get out within a rough timescale. Pressure gauges, or lack of, have never made a difference to the quality of the drink. It's all about the grind.
> 
> Say you have a budget of £500 (half the price of a DB) you can get a DTP and possibly a new mignon which would put you in good stead for making awesome drinks. You would need a few little extras such as scales, decent tamper and a few daft bits but hey you've saved yourself £500 if considering a DB lol.
> 
> Just my thoughts though haha. Obviously I'm a DTP owner so will always sing their praises


Thanks @joey24dirt

Yeah it is satisfying making your own coffee, I even roast my own coffee. I do always weigh my coffee in and out, 18g beans into my bean-to-coffee machine and try to adjust it to extract 54g out in 30 seconds. But at the moment the machine isn't playing ball and stops grinding before all 18g of beans are ground. My main reason for wanting to upgrade, I also think the coffee from it could taste better.

Another difference between the DTP and BE is the temperature adjustment. Not sure if that matters too much as I always use medium to medium-dark roast.

I feel like biting the bullet and getting the DB to my girlfriend's dismay


----------



## ddoyle

igm45 said:


> Grinder has a larger impact than the machine, I would spend the larger part of your budget on a grinder and go with a DTP and upgrade the machine later if you want to.


What would you recommend as a grinder?


----------



## joey24dirt

ddoyle said:


> Thanks @joey24dirt
> 
> Yeah it is satisfying making your own coffee, I even roast my own coffee. I do always weigh my coffee in and out, 18g beans into my bean-to-coffee machine and try to adjust it to extract 54g out in 30 seconds. But at the moment the machine isn't playing ball and stops grinding before all 18g of beans are ground. My main reason for wanting to upgrade, I also think the coffee from it could taste better.
> 
> Another difference between the DTP and BE is the temperature adjustment. Not sure if that matters too much as I always use medium to medium-dark roast.
> 
> I feel like biting the bullet and getting the DB to my girlfriend's dismay


Just show her a pic of the DTP and hope she won't notice when it turns up. So you've answered the question about future upgrades. You'll likely want a DB anyway. Still you will need a good grinder to go with that or it's a pointless big spend. If you're handy and like a tinker about then possibly an SJ to refurb wouldn't cost the world (or your relationship lol)


----------



## ddoyle

Hmmmm coffee or girlfriend ? lol


----------



## igm45

ddoyle said:


> Thanks @joey24dirt
> 
> My main reason for wanting to upgrade, I also think the coffee from it could taste better.


It definitely will.



ddoyle said:


> Thanks @joey24dirt
> 
> Another difference between the DTP and BE is the temperature adjustment. Not sure if that matters too much as I always use medium to medium-dark roast.


I have been leant a group head thermometer, I note little differences between long and short cooling flushes.

IMO the biggest factors 'in the cup' are:

Grind quality

Shot prep (mainly distribution tbh, tamping is over complicated by many).


----------



## DaveP

But ... a dual boiler or HX machine being able to steam and brew at the same time without having to wait is a very very very good thing, ok not so good for a hermit who only ever makes one cup but hey, lol


----------



## igm45

DaveP said:


> But ... a dual boiler or HX machine being able to steam and brew at the same time without having to wait is a very very very good thing, ok not so good for a hermit who only ever makes one cup but hey, lol


Good point,

I'm a herbit that generally makes one cup several times a day (and espresso at that)

Edit:

I have a hx, funny how quickly you take the steam wand for granted. Forgot that some machines cannot do that!


----------



## ddoyle

So, I think I am learning towards the DTP and a mid price grinder, base on expert opinions here


----------



## igm45

ddoyle said:


> What would you recommend as a grinder?


Million dollar question there, it seems Niche is the home game changer. That's not released until middle of next year though.

In the interim do some research on Bella Barista, you won't go wrong with most :

Mazzer

Compact

Eureka

*Generally* speaking the larger the burrs the better.


----------



## joey24dirt

ddoyle said:


> So, I think I am learning towards the DTP and a mid price grinder, base on expert opinions here


Do you know anyone who has one you could try? Check out a few of the threads we have started on the DTP it might just give you an insight into what they can do under the right conditions.


----------



## ddoyle

I think most decent hx based machines only take 30 seconds or so to go from espresso extraction to being ready to froth milk, so I think I can wait an extra 30 seconds or so


----------



## igm45

You thinking brand new or used? Certainly commercial grinders are built like tanks and buying used doesn't usually come with any issues.


----------



## joey24dirt

ddoyle said:


> I think most decent hx based machines only take 30 seconds or so to go from espresso extraction to being ready to froth milk, so I think I can wait an extra 30 seconds or so


That's it. There's no real rush unless you have impatient family members. My mother always pop over to "see the kids" but I know the real reason why she comes over lol


----------



## ddoyle

joey24dirt said:


> Do you know anyone who has one you could try? Check out a few of the threads we have started on the DTP it might just give you an insight into what they can do under the right conditions.


I think most of my friends are instant coffee or tea drinkers lol


----------



## ddoyle

igm45 said:


> Million dollar question there, it seems Niche is the home game changer. That's not released until middle of next year though.
> 
> In the interim do some research on Bella Barista, you won't go wrong with most :
> 
> Mazzer
> 
> Compact
> 
> Eureka
> 
> *Generally* speaking the larger the burrs the better.


Thanks, will check them out

I don't mind new or used


----------



## joey24dirt

ddoyle said:


> I think most of my friends are instant coffee or tea drinkers lol


You need new friends lol. (Just kidding of course)


----------



## joey24dirt

Just read your bio by the way. Send a drone over to watch me use the DTP


----------



## ddoyle

joey24dirt said:


> You need new friends lol. (Just kidding of course)


Well, looks like ive made some new friends here


----------



## igm45

joey24dirt said:


> You need new friends lol. (Just kidding of course)


Many a truth...


----------



## ddoyle

lol, drone sent


----------



## ddoyle

So, hows the frothing and micro foam on the DTP? As I do like my flatwhites.


----------



## igm45

ddoyle said:


> So, hows the frothing and micro foam on the DTP?


Once again operators play a large part, @joey24dirt milk seems to be much better than mine


----------



## joey24dirt

ddoyle said:


> Well, looks like ive made some new friends here


This is a great forum. It can be a daunting thing to get involved (even online) but there's no judgment here, just lots of knowledge, friendly people willing to help and occasionally some hard truths.


----------



## ddoyle

I'm sure its not as good as the DB's frother, but if the DTP's is good enough plus the lower price might swing it for me.


----------



## joey24dirt

igm45 said:


> Once again operators play a large part, @joey24dirt milk seems to be much better than mine


Definitely takes a lot of practice, and as always I only post my best haha. I did do a video of my workflow but that has changed again so ignore that if you stumble across it. If you enjoy flat whites then the right sized pitcher helps. I use a 12oz rhinowares and it doesn't take long at all to get decent microfoam.


----------



## ddoyle

joey24dirt said:


> This is a great forum. It can be a daunting thing to get involved (even online) but there's no judgment here, just lots of knowledge, friendly people willing to help and occasionally some hard truths.


Great, as I came from a site that wasn't so friendly to here


----------



## ddoyle

I have a pitcher, not sure what size it is, is there one supplied with the DTP?


----------



## joey24dirt

ddoyle said:


> I have a pitcher, not sure what size it is, is there one supplied with the DTP?


Yeah I think that's a 16oz. Very good pitcher by all accounts, I just preferred the 12oz rhinowares. I also have a 20oz for larger drinks.

Here's a flat white I made using the DTP ...










Might just swing it seeing results haha


----------



## Tufty_B

ddoyle said:


> ...
> 
> Another difference between the DTP and BE is the temperature adjustment. Not sure if that matters too much as I always use medium to medium-dark roast.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if you know that the Barista Express doesn't allow much adjustment, the water temperature can only be changed by ±2°C in 1°C increments from the default temperature.


----------



## igm45

joey24dirt said:


> Yeah I think that's a 16oz. Very good pitcher by all accounts, I just preferred the 12oz rhinowares. I also have a 20oz for larger drinks.
> 
> Here's a flat white I made using the DTP ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Might just swing it seeing results haha


Are you self taught Joey?

Inspirational, I'd love to be able to do it. Purely to show off to guests who judge my choice of expenditure.

As I only drink milk based once every few days the drive is somewhat lacking.


----------



## ddoyle

joey24dirt said:


> Yeah I think that's a 16oz. Very good pitcher by all accounts, I just preferred the 12oz rhinowares. I also have a 20oz for larger drinks.
> 
> Here's a flat white I made using the DTP ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Might just swing it seeing results haha


impressive latte art skills


----------



## ddoyle

Tufty_B said:


> I'm not sure if you know that the Barista Express doesn't allow much adjustment, the water temperature can only be changed by ±2°C in 1°C increments from the default temperature.


Yes knew this thanks, presume the adjustment is either side of 93c. Not sure but I think a couple of degrees could make a difference to an espresso extraction.


----------



## joey24dirt

igm45 said:


> Are you self taught Joey?
> 
> Inspirational, I'd love to be able to do it. Purely to show off to guests who judge my choice of expenditure.
> 
> As I only drink milk based once every few days the drive is somewhat lacking.


I am indeed. I had a delonghi espresso machine for about 5 years which died then went to the DTP. Had it maybe 8 months. Just lots of YouTube and trying again and again and again. I make around 2-3 cups a day so have a reasonably good amount of practice.


----------



## joey24dirt

ddoyle said:


> impressive latte art skills


I've had many failed attempts lol


----------



## ddoyle

joey24dirt said:


> I've had many failed attempts lol


At least you got there in the end, with my latte art you have to use your imagination like seeing shapes in the clouds.


----------



## ATZ

ddoyle said:


> So, I think I am learning towards the DTP and a mid price grinder, base on expert opinions here


This is what I've ended up with and I'm making excellent coffees after a little practice, certainly lightyears ahead of most coffee chains.

I paired my DTP with a Mazzer Super Jolly bought second had off here, you really can tell the difference between poorly ground coffee and not in a machine like this.


----------



## mctrials23

I really struggle with the foam with my DTP. I have watched a lot of videos but I can't get consistently good milk. It either ends up too watery throughout or it ends up an OK texture up until the top where the foam is really dense. Any advice Joey?


----------



## joey24dirt

mctrials23 said:


> I really struggle with the foam with my DTP. I have watched a lot of videos but I can't get consistently good milk. It either ends up too watery throughout or it ends up an OK texture up until the top where the foam is really dense. Any advice Joey?


If you can do a video that would help. I've recently done a milk steaming video so I'll upload that later tonight for you to have a look at


----------



## ddoyle

Bit the bullet and bought the Sage Dual Boiler and Baratza Sette 270w, total inc postage £1491


----------



## joey24dirt

ddoyle said:


> Bit the bullet and bought the Sage Dual Boiler and Baratza Sette 270w, total inc postage £1491


Nice!! Get some photos up


----------



## ddoyle

Will do once it arrives, literally just bought it (online).


----------



## ajohn

joey24dirt said:


> Yeah I think that's a 16oz. Very good pitcher by all accounts, I just preferred the 12oz rhinowares. I also have a 20oz for larger drinks.
> 
> Here's a flat white I made using the DTP ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Might just swing it seeing results haha


Somehow I suspect you could do that with either of your machines even with a Delonghi. One thing I am curious about looking at the crema what beans would you use for drinks like that. Any robusta in it ?

John

-


----------



## joey24dirt

ajohn said:


> Somehow I suspect you could do that with either of your machines even with a Delonghi. One thing I am curious about looking at the crema what beans would you use for drinks like that. Any robusta in it ?
> 
> John
> 
> -


No robusta here just arabica. It's probably Rwandan that... I can't remember.


----------



## ddoyle

Arabica beans will produce good crema if the beans are recently roasted i.e. about 7 days old. Stale supermarket beans will not produce good crema.


----------



## ajohn

Crema varies even on arabica types and it seems that robusta can produce more. The taste of it varies too even on arabica. That's why I asked.








I'm a BE owner who thought that I'd probably find that I ideally needed 2 grinders when I bought it. I have a separate one now and it's already proved to be useful. It's a modified Swiss made Solis. These do seem to differ in detail to others that look the same. I've used it to grind what could be called guest beans to avoid emptying and resetting the one on the BE. In it's modified state it will grind finer than a 5 setting on the BE. I don't know how much finer but it wont be much. The Solis is a little more difficult to modify than the various video's suggest. One of the nice aspects is that I can put X grams of beans in and that's what comes out. I'm hoping that the replacement I have ordered can do the same but it also offers the opportunity to weigh what is coming out with some cheap digital scales.

It's a handy thing to have as there are loads of types of beans out there to try. I did try a hand grinder but given that several grinder settings are probably going to have to be tried it takes too long. It takes a surprising length of time to even grind just 10gm.

John

-


----------



## ajohn

The replacement has turned out to be a very well made disaster. It's even well designed - both burrs are easy to get at to clean. Problem is the burrs. They clog up on a fine setting. Once that happens no more comes out. Open it up so that the grinds flow out nicely it's very quick but way too coarse.

Mail order though so shouldn't have any problems sending it back. I hope.

John

-


----------



## ddoyle

@john I see, although I've always got really good crema from fresh beans, although I do roast my own. I would imagine it's better to find an arabica that produces good crema than to resort to adding robusta, but that's just my take.

On another note I'm beginning to regret ordering the sette 270w grinder, it hasn't arrived yet, however I've read about lots of people having issues with it, does anyone here have the 270w?


----------



## joey24dirt

ddoyle said:


> @john I see, although I've always got really good crema from fresh beans, although I do roast my own. I would imagine it's better to find an arabica that produces good crema than to resort to adding robusta, but that's just my take.
> 
> On another note I'm beginning to regret ordering the sette 270w grinder, it hasn't arrived yet, however I've read about lots of people having issues with it, does anyone here have the 270w?


Can't help you on the grinder front unfortunately. I've only ever owned a sage grinder and now the mazzer.

What are the faults you have read about?


----------



## ddoyle

@joey24dirt

High failure rate after a few months and problems with the automatic weighing, hopefully the latest revisions of this model don't have issues.


----------



## joey24dirt

ddoyle said:


> @joey24dirt
> 
> High failure rate after a few months and problems with the automatic weighing, hopefully the latest revisions of this model don't have issues.


Are there any other grinders you're interested in?


----------



## ddoyle

joey24dirt said:


> Are there any other grinders you're interested in?


Too late now, its been shipped and due to arrive today or tomorrow. I had initially considered the Mignon Mk 2 or Mahlkonig Vario, but the good reviews and automatic dosing by weight of the sette 270w swang it for me. Hopefully the bad comments it got was due to a bad batch as most of the bad comments seem to have been posted around April/May.


----------



## joey24dirt

ddoyle said:


> Too late now, its been shipped and due to arrive today or tomorrow. I had initially considered the Mignon Mk 2 or Mahlkonig Vario, but the good reviews and automatic dosing by weight of the sette 270w swang it for me. Hopefully the bad comments it got was due to a bad batch as most of the bad comments seem to have been posted around April/May.


Fingers crossed.


----------



## ddoyle

All set up now.


----------



## joey24dirt

ddoyle said:


> All set up now.
> 
> View attachment 29605


Very nice. Not jealous at all over here


----------



## ddoyle

lol, just have to learn how to use it now, because...

"A Bad Brew Makes Me Grumpy"

View attachment 29606


----------



## ddoyle

Just ordered a 18g VST basket as I feel that the supplied basket is better for larger doses.


----------

