# Barista Express vs. Barista Pro



## HVL87

As a relative newbie I recently purchased the Barista Express and Barista Pro from Costco for £365 and £450 respectively. I will only keep one machine however I do have a dilemma in choosing between the two.

I did a quick comparison extracting espresso on both machines:

Rave signature beans (medium/dark) roasted on 27 Dec.

Tested on 3 Jan.

Manual shot with 8s pre-infusion.

*Barista Pro (upper burr at setting 5)*

Grind setting 6, Dose - 19g, Yield - no extraction (grind too fine), Time -N/A

Grind setting 8, Dose - 19.1g, Yield - 42g, Time - 35s

Grind setting 9, Dose - 19.1g, Yield - 43g, Time - 28s

*Barista Express (upper burr at setting 3)*

Grind setting 5, Dose - 19g, Yield - 40g, Time - 33s

Grind setting 6, Dose - 19g, Yield - no extraction (grind too coarse for 19g dose), Time - N/A

Grind setting 6, Dose - 17.9g, Yield - 41g, Time - 29s

There is more adjustment available on the Pro grinder (30 steps vs. 18) and more reliance on changing dose on the Express in order to fine tune the extraction. The technical team at Sage did however confirm that the lowest and highest grind settings on the Express and Pro are the same, only the Pro has more steps in-between.

The Pro starts up in 3 seconds vs. approx 30 seconds on the Express and is also quieter in use. The built in timer on the LCD screen is useful. I did however find the portafilter included with the Pro is a much tighter fit.

I don't find the omission of the pressure gauge on the Pro to be an issue - it was initially useful on the Express to indicate the lowest grind setting was not fine enough (upper burr adjustment required). However when brewing it can be misleading if anything, especially if used in conjunction with the guidance provided in the Sage manual.

Stretching milk was an interesting experience. The wand on the Express has a single hole tip and can consistently produce textured milk for latte art, which takes around 1 min for a 240ml latte. The Pro has a 4 hole tip which I found difficult to use to begin with. I can't use the same technique as I do with the Express and I believe the wand needs to be kept more vertical instead of at an angle. If you get the orientation right and with some practice (I hope), I believe the extra power will produce a better microfoam. It takes approx 45s for a 240ml latte (haven't timed yet). Does anyone have experience texturing milk on the Pro?

I'm leaning towards keeping the Pro especially with a price difference of £85. The steps on the Express grinder are much too far apart. As beans age, I feel like the integrated grinder will dictate what extraction you have to make do with as opposed to offering finer control to the user. The Pro may reduce a need to purchase a separate grinder in the near future. Interested to hear people's thoughts.


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## -Tristan-

If I were you I would keep the Pro.

Many similarities between the two machines but the reasons I would keep the Pro are:



30 grind settings vs 18 on the BE, reducing the need to buy a separate grinder as you mentioned (would be biggest factor for me)


Everything is noticeably faster on the Pro thanks to the Thermojet system


Hot water spout is located in the middle pointing to the right (I believe), which is nice, means less moving around.


Pro just looks nicer, beautiful polished steel and curvier (not massively important) but will look beautiful on your countertop


Other than that they are obviously both programmable. Nice backlit LCD display on the Pro to see grind and shot times.

Bottom line: quicker heat-up time, more grind settings, reduced delay between brewing and steaming and updated hot water spout.

Hope this helps!


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## TomHughes

I had this choice and I have a pro arriving tomorrow


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## HVL87

The Pro is overall the better machine although I have noticed one difference/issue.

The first espresso I brewed into a 240ml cup (not preheated) was only warm and not hot.

I did a comparison between the pro and express by switching both machines on for 15-20 mins, running multiple shots through the group head and portafilter, and extracting espresso into a preheated (boiling water) double wall espresso cup.

Measured in the cup, the temperature for the Pro ranged between 65-67c with the Express reaching 74c. The brew temp was set to the highest setting on pro through the LCD.

I have an old DeLonghi Dedica for which I ran the same test - temp was 71c in the cup.

Does the pro temp seem lower than expected? I know there are many variables which effect the temp in a cup, but I'm following the same process for all machines.


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## TomHughes

HVL87 said:


> The Pro is overall the better machine although I have noticed one difference/issue.
> 
> The first espresso I brewed into a 240ml cup (not preheated) was only warm and not hot.
> 
> I did a comparison between the pro and express by switching both machines on for 15-20 mins, running multiple shots through the group head and portafilter, and extracting espresso into a preheated (boiling water) double wall espresso cup.
> 
> Measured in the cup, the temperature for the Pro ranged between 65-67c with the Express reaching 74c. The brew temp was set to the highest setting on pro through the LCD.
> 
> I have an old DeLonghi Dedica for which I ran the same test - temp was 71c in the cup.
> 
> Does the pro temp seem lower than expected? I know there are many variables which effect the temp in a cup, but I'm following the same process for all machines.


 That is really concerning as this was the reason I got rid of my DTP!


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## TomHughes

HVL87 said:


> The Pro is overall the better machine although I have noticed one difference/issue.
> 
> The first espresso I brewed into a 240ml cup (not preheated) was only warm and not hot.
> 
> I did a comparison between the pro and express by switching both machines on for 15-20 mins, running multiple shots through the group head and portafilter, and extracting espresso into a preheated (boiling water) double wall espresso cup.
> 
> Measured in the cup, the temperature for the Pro ranged between 65-67c with the Express reaching 74c. The brew temp was set to the highest setting on pro through the LCD.
> 
> I have an old DeLonghi Dedica for which I ran the same test - temp was 71c in the cup.
> 
> Does the pro temp seem lower than expected? I know there are many variables which effect the temp in a cup, but I'm following the same process for all machines.


 So I've just thought of something and bare with me on this. 
What was the extraction times of those shots? And do the times above include pre-infusion?


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## HVL87

TomHughes said:


> That is really concerning as this was the reason I got rid of my DTP!


 It's quite disappointing really and I've already arranged to return the BE (although can be cancelled).

I believe the shots were between 20-25s including pre-infusion. I did run one longer shot on the pro as the dose was too high for the grind setting - this seemed to measure significantly below the 60-65c range in the cup.

Interestingly I turned both machines on from cold and after a few minutes the top of the BE is very warm and the shower screen almost hot. The pro on the other hand is cold (Top and shower screen). I'm not sure if the machines function differently or if this is a sign of something wrong.

It would be interesting to know how you get on with your pro when it arrives?


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## TomHughes

HVL87 said:


> It's quite disappointing really and I've already arranged to return the BE (although can be cancelled).
> 
> I believe the shots were between 20-25s including pre-infusion. I did run one longer shot on the pro as the dose was too high for the grind setting - this seemed to measure significantly below the 60-65c range in the cup.
> 
> Interestingly I turned both machines on from cold and after a few minutes the top of the BE is very warm and the shower screen almost hot. The pro on the other hand is cold (Top and shower screen). I'm not sure if the machines function differently or if this is a sign of something wrong.
> 
> It would be interesting to know how you get on with your pro when it arrives?


 It sounds like your one may be faulty then. 
I read some old threads (early 2019) about the same issues with the Barista touch, which is essentially the same machine as the pro. This was supposed to be addressed in May 2019. Maybe your BP (and mine) is old stock from Costco?

So, my idea was based on a few old threads where someone measured the temp when a dual wall was in the BT, and found it was dead on temp. The hypothesis was that the BT and the BP were based on a resisted flow rate, so the PID is not designed for faster flow

My thought was that the BP is desiged for 19-22g, But the BE was designed for 18.

I actually run my DTP for an extraction of 45 seconds, 10 seconds pre infusion for 10 and extraction over 35. With 20g in and 40g out.

Maybe your shot is running too fast? A slower shot may be cooler in the cup, but hotter in the PF?


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## HVL87

The temp directly from the group head and into a preheated cup is 74c, so I'm not sure the resisted flow theory makes sense in this instance? Unless i'm misunderstanding.

This is why I ran a faster shot aiming for a higher temp - I thought the more time the water passes through the portafilter/coffee the longer it has to cool down before reaching the cup.

I can try running a longer shot - no harm.

I had a similar thought regarding older stock at Costco - this is why I believe they are only selling the sea salt and black truffle colours which I assume are less popular, and they could buy at a lower price & higher volume. Maybe sage can confirm the production date from the serial no. I'll call them tomorrow anyway.


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## TomHughes

Yes, I think that may be the case if it's old stock.

Have you tried with 19-22g dose as recommended with a shot that doesn't start for at least 8 seconds (This would give the time for pressure/temp to build according to the manual.


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## HVL87

The test shots in my initial post were all done with a 19g dose and an 8s pre-infusion (included in total). Unfortunately I didn't measure the temp on these.

The shots for which I measured the temp were dosed with 18g as I was aiming for a faster shot, although the pre-infusion was still around 7 or 8s. I'll try running a longer shot with 19-20g tomorrow.

I would have to grind significantly finer to get over 20g in the basket - not sure that makes sense.

If the espresso temp was dependent on dose, you would think it would be highlighted in the troubleshooting section under "Coffee not hot enough".

Where did you hear/read about the issue with the BT being addressed in May 2019?

Cheers.


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## TomHughes

HVL87 said:


> The test shots in my initial post were all done with a 19g dose and an 8s pre-infusion (included in total). Unfortunately I didn't measure the temp on these.
> 
> The shots for which I measured the temp were dosed with 18g as I was aiming for a faster shot, although the pre-infusion was still around 7 or 8s. I'll try running a longer shot with 19-20g tomorrow.
> 
> I would have to grind significantly finer to get over 20g in the basket - not sure that makes sense.
> 
> If the espresso temp was dependent on dose, you would think it would be highlighted in the troubleshooting section under "Coffee not hot enough".
> 
> Where did you hear/read about the issue with the BT being addressed in May 2019?
> 
> Cheers.


 It was on an American site somewhere. However based on amazon reviews it hasn't been sorted? 
Are you purging the steam wand just before you pull the shot?

Although they may be similar machines they have very different internals it seems!

What I find odd is that both the DTP and BT (supposedly almost identical to the BP) are designed for 15-18g! According to their manual. 
Whereas the BP is 19-22? Does it have a deeper basket?

Have you tried this - measure temp using the dual wall single filter in. See if a pressure increase in there causes a temp rise.

Also what's the Costco returns policy like? As I suspect this one will be going back ASAP! I want to order a BE of amazon or maybe something else


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## HVL87

I'm not purging the steam wand before pulling a shot as the machine should work properly as intended.

They all (DTP, BT, BP and BE) use the same baskets and portafilter so I'm not sure why the suggested dose is different.

You essentially have an unlimited time to return a coffee machine to Costco for a refund, even if you have used the machine. Useful if it breaks down in the future, even past the sage warranty date. I am a costco member, so I'm not sure if the same policy applies to non-members.


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## TomHughes

HVL87 said:


> I'm not purging the steam wand before pulling a shot as the machine should work properly as intended.
> 
> They all (DTP, BT, BP and BE) use the same baskets and portafilter so I'm not sure why the suggested dose is different.
> 
> You essentially have an unlimited time to return a coffee machine to Costco for a refund, even if you have used the machine. Useful if it breaks down in the future, even past the sage warranty date. I am a costco member, so I'm not sure if the same policy applies to non-members.


 I'm an online member as I needed to join to get the machine. 
My DTP has always needed a steam wand purge to get anywhere near temp. Maybe they shouldn't need it but it seems to heat the internals much better. 
mine arrives at 12. So we will see what happens!


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## HVL87

I guess that's why you got rid of the DTP! 
Fingers crossed, let me know how you get on.


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## TomHughes

Yep managed to get around 80 max from it. Espresso in the cup was lukewarm. 
I had it on for nearly an hour. 20 plus shots of water pulled and top was still cool. 
rubbish!


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## HVL87

I spoke to a customer rep from Sage who then spoke with her supervisor. Apparently all of their machines including the Pro brew at 93c but due to the way in which the thermojet system works, the temp in the cup will be lower - you can then "drink it immediately". I also came across this statement in a different thread on here in regards to the BT.

The water from the hot water spout measures 72c in a preheated cup vs. 80c on the BE - I haven't even adjusted the temp on the BE from default. Serving an Americano from the Pro will cool down far too quickly. Warm water to lukewarm espresso 

I assume all Sage thermojet machines will behave in the same way unfortunately.


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## MWJB

HVL87 said:


> I spoke to a customer rep from Sage who then spoke with her supervisor. Apparently all of their machines including the Pro brew at 93c but due to the way in which the thermojet system works, the temp in the cup will be lower - you can then "drink it immediately". I also came across this in statement in a different thread on here in regards to the BT.
> 
> The water from the hot water spout measures 72c in a preheated cup vs. 80c on the BE - I haven't even adjusted the temp on the BE from default. Serving an Americano from the Pro will cool down far too quickly. Warm water to lukewarm espresso
> 
> I assume all Sage thermojet machines will behave in the same way unfortunately.


 It's pretty normal for espresso to be 60-70c in the cup.

Why not top up with hot water from a regular kettle for your Americano?

Or, if your Americano isn't massive, try brewing the desired amount in one go?

WHO recently published a report on hot drinks, suggesting any drinks over 60c weren't good for you.


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## HVL87

MWJB said:


> It's pretty normal for espresso to be 60-70c in the cup.
> 
> Why not top up with hot water from a regular kettle for your Americano?
> 
> Or, if your Americano isn't massive, try brewing the desired amount in one go?
> 
> WHO recently published a report on hot drinks, suggesting any drinks over 60c weren't good for you.


 I was measuring 60-65c in a dual wall espresso cup preheated with boiling water. In a 240ml ceramic cup "preheated" with water from the spout on the pro, it measured 50c.

I don't mind topping up with hot water from the kettle, but in my mind it renders the spout on the pro redundant as it does not perform its intended function.

The issue is also with the time between making the drink and it being consumed a few minutes later, if you have guests for example. If you start with a hot drink you can take your time and savour it as it cools, as opposed to rushing to drink it whilst it's still warm.


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## MWJB

HVL87 said:


> I was measuring 60-65c in a dual wall espresso cup preheated with boiling water. In a 240ml ceramic cup "preheated" with water from the spout on the pro, it measured 50c.
> 
> I don't mind topping up with hot water from the kettle, but in my mind it renders the spout on the pro redundant as it does not perform its intended function.
> 
> The issue is also with the time between making the drink and it being consumed a few minutes later, if you have guests for example. If you start with a hot drink you can take your time and savour it as it cools, as opposed to rushing to drink it whilst it's still warm.


 Let's say it takes you 2 to 2.5 minutes to make each drink, you're never going to have the first guest waiting for their shot to cool, by the time the 5th drink is out.

If you want coffee for several people, at Americano strength, all at the same time - then a drip filter machine or a large French press or two would be better. Otherwise, you'll just have to serve the drinks one by one, knowing the first will be consumed by the time the last is ready.

For your drinks to be hot for some time, they have to be large & very hot to begin with. With espresso, even if the brew water is hot when it hits the puck, it is basically going to be pushed through 1/4 to 1/3 of it's own weight in room temperature wood. That's got to drop the temp.


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## TomHughes

Just got off the phone to sage and got the you must use fresh beans comment etc. 
Oh and do a factory reset.


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## TomHughes

Ok so I'm not sure how I've done it. But it's now at temp or seems to be. 
I used the custom shot setting and it seems to be at temp fine


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## HVL87

TomHughes said:


> Ok so I'm not sure how I've done it. But it's now at temp or seems to be.
> I used the custom shot setting and it seems to be at temp fine


 Interesting - how have you measured the temp and what reading are you getting?


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## TomHughes

HVL87 said:


> Interesting - how have you measured the temp and what reading are you getting?


 I was measuring with a thermometer in the spout, getting a consistent 90-92 there. On the 2nd and 3rd pull. 1st was recording lower likely as the PF spout was taking some heat away. That was with the double wall basket in. The water in the cup was a nice 80.


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## HVL87

TomHughes said:


> I was measuring with a thermometer in the spout, getting a consistent 90-92 there. On the 2nd and 3rd pull. 1st was recording lower likely as the PF spout was taking some heat away. That was with the double wall basket in. The water in the cup was a nice 80.


 I also ran a few shots with the double wall basket and now get 80c in the cup - although the 'flush' icon has lit up on the screen, asking for a cleaning cycle to be performed already. Not sure if that's normal? Only been a week.


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## kennyboy993

Why is it better to do the warming flushes with the single wall filters? Happy to do though would rather keep them in the box out of sight 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HVL87

So the sage customer service rep reached out to their technical team in regards to the temp on the BP vs BE. Answer below:

With all thermojet units: Barista Touch, Barista Pro, Bambino...
The temperature result of coffee will be dependent on the conditions set by user. We controlled the flow based on Coffee roasted freshness, selecting the correct grind size, adding enough coffee in the portafilter, tamping evenly. All these variables must exist on the thermojet products otherwise consumers WILL experience coffee not at the optimum temperature.

In regards to the cup warmer, group head and shower screen being warmer on the BE vs. BP:

This is because of thermocoil we use that has more mass and takes much longer to heat. This will then in turn radiate heat upward to the top of the unit. The newer thermojet units do not radiate heat because of the faster heat up times and are ONLY on when required.

Also the cleaning cycle should be required after 300 shots.


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## kennyboy993

Good info, thanks for sharing.

Makes sense - so the thermojet units can only be warmed by doing warming flushes, doesn't matter how long they have been on for as the thermojet is only active at shot pull time anyway.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TomHughes

HVL87 said:


> So the sage customer service rep reached out to their technical team in regards to the temp on the BP vs BE. Answer below:
> 
> With all thermojet units: Barista Touch, Barista Pro, Bambino...
> The temperature result of coffee will be dependent on the conditions set by user. We controlled the flow based on Coffee roasted freshness, selecting the correct grind size, adding enough coffee in the portafilter, tamping evenly. All these variables must exist on the thermojet products otherwise consumers WILL experience coffee not at the optimum temperature.
> 
> In regards to the cup warmer, group head and shower screen being warmer on the BE vs. BP:
> 
> This is because of thermocoil we use that has more mass and takes much longer to heat. This will then in turn radiate heat upward to the top of the unit. The newer thermojet units do not radiate heat because of the faster heat up times and are ONLY on when required.
> 
> Also the cleaning cycle should be required after 300 shots.


 This makes sense. Hence why there is a slight issue with the recommendation for 19-22g which is not optimal for the size of basket.

I just got a great shot, good temp with 20.5g in the PF, this slowed things down and pulled the shot over 35 seconds. Very warm in the cup.


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## TomHughes

So to update this a new thermometer just arrived (I was having to use a milk thermometer before with dubious accuracy).

A few temp tests -

PF and dual wall single basket warmed in hot water prior.

1. first run/flush - 83 C measured coming out of the PF.

2. Run 2 86C

3. Run 3 92C

4. Run 4 92

5. Run 5 92.

You get the idea.

I think this confirms that the water is hitting the espresso at 93-94.

Changed to single wall basket

Run 6. 80.

Looks like the flow hypothesis was correct.


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## kennyboy993

TomHughes said:


> So to update this a new thermometer just arrived (I was having to use a milk thermometer before with dubious accuracy).
> A few temp tests -
> PF and dual wall single basket warmed in hot water prior.
> 1. first run/flush - 83 C measured coming out of the PF.
> 2. Run 2 86C
> 3. Run 3 92C
> 4. Run 4 92
> 5. Run 5 92.
> You get the idea.
> I think this confirms that the water is hitting the espresso at 93-94.
> Changed to single wall basket
> Run 6. 80.
> Looks like the flow hypothesis was correct.


Very interesting Tom, is it possible you can show us a video so we can see where you're measuring and we can do it with our own machines?

The flow constraint sounds logical - I'm just hoping the single wall baskets with coffee in generates approximately the same flow conditions these machines were designed for.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TomHughes

kennyboy993 said:


> Very interesting Tom, is it possible you can show us a video so we can see where you're measuring and we can do it with our own machines?
> 
> The flow constraint sounds logical - I'm just hoping the single wall baskets with coffee in generates approximately the same flow conditions these machines were designed for.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Based (visually) on the flow from the double wall and the flow with a shot in at 19-20g the rates seem similar.

The flow rate with 18 was much faster. This shot was also sour and cool.

Looks like the machine was designed for 19-20, or maybe finer grind? 
I'll try get a video when I get a sec. but I'm measuring with a metal food thermometer, which measures at the tip and putting this in the spout to sit in the middle as the water comes down from the basket


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## kennyboy993

Yes I assume finer grind would achieve the same.

I have a bambino with a niche grinder - am assuming bambino group is same as B-pro so keen to stay in this discussion.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kennyboy993

So Tom you're measuring temp as it exits PF, not shower screen?

Water entering the pf and therefore the puck should be mid 90's meaning water leaving the pf (after pf has cooled it down) should be less?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TomHughes

kennyboy993 said:


> So Tom you're measuring temp as it exits PF, not shower screen?
> 
> Water entering the pf and therefore the puck should be mid 90's meaning water leaving the pf (after pf has cooled it down) should be less?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 The PF was heated prior to heat losses to it should be very minimal.
And with the bit of plastic in there the water comes out of the shower screen, into pre heated basket (around 85 based on IF thermometer) , onto the plastic disc then channel to where the thermometer is. 
I suspect it may loose 1-2 deg, so hits the thermometer at 92. I also tried the increase temp function and managed to measure 95.


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## ajohn

These threads are begging to make me laugh. That stops me from crying. Few things

The grind steps on the SGP cover a much much larger range than the ones built into the machines. Altering the outer burr setting does not change the step size. There can be a reason for adjusting it as per here if it wont grind fine enough. If it does it may worth checking that the burrs don't rub too much on the lowest setting as running like that may damage them and in practice there is no need to go that fine. I haven't even on supermarket beans but I may have been lucky, I've probably tried well over a dozen different beans from these. Maybe 2 were what I would call drinkable.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/49058-how-to-check-any-sage-grinder/?do=embed

There is little point in measuring coffee flow temperature. On a decent machine it will be around the figure some one who has brewed lots of coffee mentioned and no point in me repeating. If some one wants to know what the brew temperature is that the coffee grinds see buy a Scace.

There is a problem with how hot the coffee finishes up. Fixing that and what happens is covered here - buy another machine and accept a 1/2hr at least heat up time.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/49451-sage-pro-water-temp/?do=embed

That applies to the BE as well. Hot water is tricky for them. If not hot enough all they can do is add more kw or slow the water flow rate down. The main problem is that their machines don't make good mug warmers and it is generally recognised that hot water is best obtained from a kettle.

One of the things that surprised me on the BE was how different 3 drinks made on the trot tasted. I decided to taste all and usually made mine last. Initially put it down to a cold portafilter. Flushing didn't make any significant difference. Might have done if I ran loads through. I preheated by running a shot through an empty pressurised basket. That got the portafilter hot and with an extraction tool easy to do. Also gives the machine a clean water back flush. This also makes sure that the thermocoil on the BE and any internal pipe work etc was up to temperature. The idea of running steam off before pulling a shot will too - nice one but that still leaves the portafilter etc. Running water out to heat that will need a lot of it. The plastic inserts they fit will help keep the shot at what it should be. The usual aim is 70C - 80C or so when it hits the cup. That is aimed at making good coffee. There are limitations on what pid can do. Coffee is brewed at around 1g of water per second. Steam doesn't use much water. The hot water flow rate is a lot higher. If the machines preheated cups or mugs in the way others do expect it to take 20min. Commercial machines tend to have rather large boilers so there are limitations on how much and how often hot water can be drawn off many machines used at home - hence the kettle. My DB will do one 300ml americano without problems. If I want to do more I have to let the boiler reheat between each one. Takes longer so I use a hot water dispenser.

Waste of time posting about tuning with them and using stepped grinders. The web is way too loud in this respect so I'll just post a link

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/49389-help-with-new-barista-express/page/2/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=711410&embedComment=711410&embedDo=findComment#comment-711410

 On the other hand. The other aspect about tuning particularly on the BE is that there is more than enough scope for tuning via variations in brew pressure and time. Nothing is really caste in stone and some probably realise this at some point.  You have to use time to flow starting when there is no gauge. So if your shot takes 35sec to hit the miraculous ration of 2 rather than throwing it away taste it. If you do not like that is unlikely to be down to the time but if the same ratio cropped up with a brew time of 25sec and you had tasted that you would know what this variable did to taste. Have a bit of a problem as well as it's not unusual for 25 to 30 secs being mentioned so it should be great. The only other things that can be changed is the weight of grinds or the ratio. If the weight of grinds is too low the puck is likely to be soggy and if the grinds swill around at all taste crap. Increasing the dose has a problem as the grinds need to expand as the hot water goes in. Some restriction on that doesn't do any harm. Maybe an indication of when there has been too much added is that the puck will be rather hard to knock out. Slight signs of the shower screen on the used puck should be ok. Actually the hole in the shower screen fixing screw can be useful for that. Chances are any signs of it is too much more so the coarser the grind is. Another that some others have found eventually is that as the dose is slowly increased the puck tends to stick to the shower screen rather than comes off with the portafilter. A touch more stops that and is ok. Problem - the dose needs to be slowly increased by fractions of a gram and this is the BE and may not apply to others. I'd hope the razor tool still gives a decent starting dose. It's very easy to mess that area up.

So someone upgrades to a stepless grinder - they may be rather surprised how hard it is to adjust flow time by 5secs on many of them. People weigh out and vary time. A volumeteric machine varies time. The BE can be used like that. Assume that the others can as well. Not the DTP though,

Comments about the new thermojets are more interesting. The above is boring me. It sounds to me like there may be a heat in it problem. A blast of steam will probably help with that but to heat the lot including the portafilter use of shot through an empty pressurised basket is probably the best bet. It's not that much faff to do actually with a filter basket extraction tool (amazon) which is also useful for getting the shower screen and seal out with a bit of care. 300 shots before cleaning that !!!!! oh dear especially if only a couple of shots a day. I'd wonder about other aspects as well. Some say back flush weekly. I reckon monthly is ok.

John

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## HVL87

Keeping dose (19g) and yield (just over 2:1) fixed and adjusting the integrated grinder on the Pro, I'm seeing a difference of 7s in shot time between grind settings (based on a small sample).

However as Tom mentioned, dosing below 19g results in a fast poor and lower temp which substantiates the resistive flow theory, recommended dose of 19-22g and feedback provided by the sage technical team. Unfortunately this means I can't underdose at the same grind setting in order to fine tune the extraction.

On the other hand the steps on the BE grinder are further apart. However it seems like I am able to to change the shot time by 1-2 secs at a fixed yield by adjusting the dose in 0.1g increments. When I first purchased the BE I was making the error of not using scales with a 0.1g precision to weigh the dose.

Also I haven't yet been able to find a technique to consistently texture milk on the Pro. As it stands I seem to be leaning towards keeping the BE, although that seems to keep changing...


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## TomHughes

HVL87 said:


> Keeping dose (19g) and yield (just over 2:1) fixed and adjusting the integrated grinder on the Pro, I'm seeing a difference of 7s in shot time between grind settings (based on a small sample).
> 
> However as Tom mentioned, dosing below 19g results in a fast poor and lower temp which substantiates the resistive flow theory, recommended dose of 19-22g and feedback provided by the sage technical team. Unfortunately this means I can't underdose at the same grind setting in order to fine tune the extraction.
> 
> On the other hand the steps on the BE grinder are further apart. However it seems like I am able to to change the shot time by 1-2 secs at a fixed yield by adjusting the dose in 0.1g increments. When I first purchased the BE I was making the error of not using scales with a 0.1g precision to weigh the dose.
> 
> Also I haven't yet been able to find a technique to consistently texture milk on the Pro. As it stands I seem to be leaning towards keeping the BE, although that seems to keep changing...


 I was going to have a play with 18g today as I have a La Pavoni grinder which should grind fine and consistently enough to get the right pressure for that dose.

I have found the milk wand is very very powerful. You have to use a little more milk, only tear the paper 4 times to get the air in and submerge quick and remove quick. Are you measuring temp with your hand on the jug?


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## Dodds25

HVL87 said:


> Keeping dose (19g) and yield (just over 2:1) fixed and adjusting the integrated grinder on the Pro, I'm seeing a difference of 7s in shot time between grind settings (based on a small sample).
> 
> However as Tom mentioned, dosing below 19g results in a fast poor and lower temp which substantiates the resistive flow theory, recommended dose of 19-22g and feedback provided by the sage technical team. Unfortunately this means I can't underdose at the same grind setting in order to fine tune the extraction.
> 
> On the other hand the steps on the BE grinder are further apart. However it seems like I am able to to change the shot time by 1-2 secs at a fixed yield by adjusting the dose in 0.1g increments. When I first purchased the BE I was making the error of not using scales with a 0.1g precision to weigh the dose.


 So although they have brought the steps a little closer together in the Pro, they have also made other design changes that mean there's actually less scope for fine tuning?? Annoying.

FWIW, on the BE I find that the scope for fine tuning is even less with the single shot basket, so this might be more of a point against the BP if you want to pull singles.


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## TomHughes

Just had a play on the grinder with the pro and you are right! Massive changes with each step. Seems very odd! I went from a 25 second pull to complete choke in about 8 steps. 
luckily it was a pretty rubbish roast so I was happy to waste it! 
7 espressos and still not dialled


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## TomHughes

I'm getting 2 second changes between grind settings. Very fresh beans. 
19g in 60 out as per standard settings

Final one now 28 seconds. Sweet and flavourful. Lighter roast so slight increase in temp. Lovely. I'm gonna have an over caffeinated lie down now


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## HVL87

TomHughes said:


> I was going to have a play with 18g today as I have a La Pavoni grinder which should grind fine and consistently enough to get the right pressure for that dose.
> 
> I have found the milk wand is very very powerful. You have to use a little more milk, only tear the paper 4 times to get the air in and submerge quick and remove quick. Are you measuring temp with your hand on the jug?


 I'm using a thermometer to measure temp. Are you getting good/consistent microfoam?

Regarding grind settings I was getting 2 second changes between them on the BE for a very fresh roast (1-2 days I believe).

At the moment I'm using the rave signature beans roasted on 27 Dec.

I've had a few over-caffeinated lie downs recently so I feel for you 

Do you know whether you intend to keep the Pro?


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## HVL87

Dodds25 said:


> So although they have brought the steps a little closer together in the Pro, they have also made other design changes that mean there's actually less scope for fine tuning?? Annoying.
> 
> FWIW, on the BE I find that the scope for fine tuning is even less with the single shot basket, so this might be more of a point against the BP if you want to pull singles.


 Less scope for fine tuning with dose I believe.

Thanks for the info on the single shot basket although I typically only use the double. I believe others on the forum have also mentioned to stay away from the single as it's difficult to dial in consistently.


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## ajohn

2 sec difference in flow time between steps is very small actually. Making adjustments that small believe it or not is a big plus for the grinder. Me I wonder if the basket is overloaded. Ok as an option but correct should also be tried.

I used the single a lot on the BE. Dose needs to be correct as well as the grinder setting. Actually it's the basket I used most often so several kg of beans went through it. It needs a fairly strong bean. Probably unsuitable for milk based drinks unless they are very small ones.Most people just use the double sometimes with a very low dose in it. That finishes up with soggy pucks and often has a dire effect on taste. A bit wet seems to be ok.

With both baskets it's a good idea to get an idea of dose from the razor tool. On other machines people find fill heights by placing a coin on the tamped puck, fitting and removing and checking for no impression left by the coin. Some people had problems with the puck spinning when razoring grinds off but it can still be used as gauge. I then did what others found like me for themselves. Increased the dose rather slowly until pucks stuck to the shower screen and then added 1 or 2 tenths of a gram to stop that from happening. That may only work on a BE due to 3 way action and lengths of pipe etc.

John

-


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## TomHughes

ajohn said:


> 2 sec difference in flow time between steps is very small actually. Making adjustments that small believe it or not is a big plus for the grinder. Me I wonder if the basket is overloaded. Ok as an option but correct should also be tried.
> 
> I used the single a lot on the BE. Dose needs to be correct as well as the grinder setting. Actually it's the basket I used most often so several kg of beans went through it. It needs a fairly strong bean. Probably unsuitable for milk based drinks unless they are very small ones.Most people just use the double sometimes with a very low dose in it. That finishes up with soggy pucks and often has a dire effect on taste. A bit wet seems to be ok.
> 
> With both baskets it's a good idea to get an idea of dose from the razor tool. On other machines people find fill heights by placing a coin on the tamped puck, fitting and removing and checking for no impression left by the coin. Some people had problems with the puck spinning when razoring grinds off but it can still be used as gauge. I then did what others found like me for themselves. Increased the dose rather slowly until pucks stuck to the shower screen and then added 1 or 2 tenths of a gram to stop that from happening. That may only work on a BE due to 3 way action and lengths of pipe etc.
> 
> John
> 
> -


 Do you think Sage are incorrect in their recommendation of 19-22g? that certainly doesn't work with the razor which cuts it down to around 18. The BE was recommend at 15-18 but for some reason the pro is higher, despite the specs. The BT is also 15-18 so what is going on???

I actually pulled some great shots at 18 earlier.


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## TomHughes

HVL87 said:


> I'm using a thermometer to measure temp. Are you getting good/consistent microfoam?
> 
> Regarding grind settings I was getting 2 second changes between them on the BE for a very fresh roast (1-2 days I believe).
> 
> At the moment I'm using the rave signature beans roasted on 27 Dec.
> 
> I've had a few over-caffeinated lie downs recently so I feel for you
> 
> Do you know whether you intend to keep the Pro?


 After playing with the steam wand earlier I am now getting very nice microfoam on the Pro. But it definitely requires more milk if you aren't speedy with it like me. Or at least it makes the whole process a lot easier!

See the two lines on the jug, hit the top one. No less.

I actually tried putting on the one hole tip for a go at a smaller amount of milk and it was better. so I may get one of those to swap over on the odd occasion.

Unfortunately the top line is 250ml, I would usually have around 150ml of milk in my drink so its going to mean a fair bit of wastage.


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## HVL87

Newbie question - I'm using what's left of my rave signature beans roasted on 27dec. Using the same dose, grind and yield as yesterday I'm seeing quite different results. Is this expected as the beans are still only 12 days old? I know it varies by bean, however at what point (age) do you only have to make small adjustments, if any, each day to dial in? I keep the beans in an airtight container in the kitchen cupboard.

@TomHughes good to know regarding amount of milk to use, shame about the wastage. Where can you buy the single hole tip? Is it a good fit?

Cheers.


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## ajohn

TomHughes said:


> Do you think Sage are incorrect in their recommendation of 19-22g? that certainly doesn't work with the razor which cuts it down to around 18. The BE was recommend at 15-18 but for some reason the pro is higher, despite the specs. The BT is also 15-18 so what is going on???
> 
> I actually pulled some great shots at 18 earlier.


 Sage offer a white gloves service on some machines where some one comes along and shows people how to use it. There has been a report that they over dose. That was on a DB, low 20's rather than pass but I usually find myself using 17 in the double for that.

What's going on? Really it's like many other aspects of brewing coffee people need to some extent to find out for themselves even on ratios that are used. Time too really but I've been doing it for a while now and stick to 30sec other than when a drink is for my wife where I use same dose, same grind and cut that to 20. It changes the taste profile. It's just too much to try each time a new bean is used so something has to be fixed. I chose time and dose when needed via basket size changes.

The thing about not overloading the basket is that within reason the dose can be increased to change the tuning a bit or even reduced. Too much extra means that at some point a wildly different grinder setting has to be used. That may or may not matter. Too little = pucks that are too wet. I don't like those. It literally all comes down to taste not set rules. I always go for what the tasting notes suggest but interpreting those often needs some imagination. The other point, something that may never be achieved on some origin bean is balance. That's the mix of taste effects as something is drunk. Some bean have such a dominant single taste that detecting anything else may be nigh on impossible. When balance is achieved I might not like it so do more playing with ratio. Balance is usually far more apparent when the coffee is pretty cool.  I've had to throw few away. Only one I can think of actually. On that I tried leaving them alone for a while over 2 weeks and then threw them away.

There are even Italian words for changing ratio in another way. Ristretto and Lungo. Either could be achieved via grind and a fixed time or same grind and a different time. In practice in the commercial world I would suspect they should be achieved via changing time as changing the grinder is always tricky.

The BE etc can be used to steam larger quantities of milk by using larger jugs. It just takes longer. The skill level needed is much the same as with Sage's standard jug but maybe more chance of getting a poor heat to froth ratio. I suspect that good latte art addicts use relatively cool milk /froth as over heating tends to stiffen it a lot.  We steam semi skimmed. Froth tends to be rather stiff.

John

-


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## HVL87

Quick update - I've packed up the Express ready to be returned on Monday. I find the steps on the grinder to be too far apart and don't want to rely too much on changing the dose to fine tune the extraction.

The Pro is easier to use with smaller steps on the grinder. The LCD screen is an improvement for me over the gauge on the BE - helps with grind time, shot time etc. I also appreciate the speed of the thermojet which makes the overall flow more efficient.

The steam wand on the Pro is a significant improvement over the BE, and once under control the microfoam produced is excellent - just need to practice my technique to become consistent.

I'll be keeping an eye on espresso temp to make sure everything is working as it should, although I found that on the BE the temp in the cup was also not optimal if the espresso was either too far under or over extracted.


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## CoffeeScience

We've tested them both and I would agree, that the Barista Pro is the better choice of the two.

For anyone still indecisive, here is a review we've published

https://www.coffeescience.org/sage-barista-pro-espresso-coffee-machine-review/

and the accompanying video review.






Happy to answer any questions or take on any feedback. Thanks


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## Joe shorrock

HVL87 said:


> Quick update - I've packed up the Express ready to be returned on Monday. I find the steps on the grinder to be too far apart and don't want to rely too much on changing the dose to fine tune the extraction.
> 
> The Pro is easier to use with smaller steps on the grinder. The LCD screen is an improvement for me over the gauge on the BE - helps with grind time, shot time etc. I also appreciate the speed of the thermojet which makes the overall flow more efficient.
> 
> The steam wand on the Pro is a significant improvement over the BE, and once under control the microfoam produced is excellent - just need to practice my technique to become consistent.
> 
> I'll be keeping an eye on espresso temp to make sure everything is working as it should, although I found that on the BE the temp in the cup was also not optimal if the espresso was either too far under or over extracted.


 Tbh the pro should be better than the BE as it's an upgrade, I've had the BE for a year, latte art is pretty decent tbh, and learning with it did take a bit of time to get used to, but I wouldn't send back BE to get the pro isn't enough of an upgrade in my opinion, my brother has one.. surprised you didn't go for a HX or DB.. I've ordered a niche cones in June as the BE spoken about is weak element. Interesting thread thou


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## brainkite

Okay, after reading through this post, the Barista Express seems more reliable.

The heating system of the Pro seems like a nice idea but not in practice.


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## RBoston

HVL87 said:


> As a relative newbie I recently purchased the Barista Express and Barista Pro from Costco for £365 and £450 respectively. I will only keep one machine however I do have a dilemma in choosing between the two.
> 
> I did a quick comparison extracting espresso on both machines:
> 
> Rave signature beans (medium/dark) roasted on 27 Dec.
> 
> Tested on 3 Jan.
> 
> Manual shot with 8s pre-infusion.
> 
> *Barista Pro (upper burr at setting 5)*
> 
> Grind setting 6, Dose - 19g, Yield - no extraction (grind too fine), Time -N/A
> 
> Grind setting 8, Dose - 19.1g, Yield - 42g, Time - 35s
> 
> Grind setting 9, Dose - 19.1g, Yield - 43g, Time - 28s
> 
> *Barista Express (upper burr at setting 3)*
> 
> Grind setting 5, Dose - 19g, Yield - 40g, Time - 33s
> 
> Grind setting 6, Dose - 19g, Yield - no extraction (grind too coarse for 19g dose), Time - N/A
> 
> Grind setting 6, Dose - 17.9g, Yield - 41g, Time - 29s
> 
> There is more adjustment available on the Pro grinder (30 steps vs. 18) and more reliance on changing dose on the Express in order to fine tune the extraction. The technical team at Sage did however confirm that the lowest and highest grind settings on the Express and Pro are the same, only the Pro has more steps in-between.
> 
> The Pro starts up in 3 seconds vs. approx 30 seconds on the Express and is also quieter in use. The built in timer on the LCD screen is useful. I did however find the portafilter included with the Pro is a much tighter fit.
> 
> I don't find the omission of the pressure gauge on the Pro to be an issue - it was initially useful on the Express to indicate the lowest grind setting was not fine enough (upper burr adjustment required). However when brewing it can be misleading if anything, especially if used in conjunction with the guidance provided in the Sage manual.
> 
> Stretching milk was an interesting experience. The wand on the Express has a single hole tip and can consistently produce textured milk for latte art, which takes around 1 min for a 240ml latte. The Pro has a 4 hole tip which I found difficult to use to begin with. I can't use the same technique as I do with the Express and I believe the wand needs to be kept more vertical instead of at an angle. If you get the orientation right and with some practice (I hope), I believe the extra power will produce a better microfoam. It takes approx 45s for a 240ml latte (haven't timed yet). Does anyone have experience texturing milk on the Pro?
> 
> I'm leaning towards keeping the Pro especially with a price difference of £85. The steps on the Express grinder are much too far apart. As beans age, I feel like the integrated grinder will dictate what extraction you have to make do with as opposed to offering finer control to the user. The Pro may reduce a need to purchase a separate grinder in the near future. Interested to hear people's thoughts.


 Did you get them online or in store? The pro version is out of stock online 😏


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## HVL87

RBoston said:


> Did you get them online or in store? The pro version is out of stock online 😏


 Bought them online. Haven't seen the Pro in stock online since the pandemic began. I have since returned it though.


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## enrvuk

HVL87 said:


> Bought them online. Haven't seen the Pro in stock online since the pandemic began. I have since returned it though.


 Why did you return it and what did you go with instead?


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## HVL87

enrvuk said:


> Why did you return it and what did you go with instead?


 Hi, welcome to the forum.

Two machines developed a fault so I decided to avoid Sage entirely. If they go wrong out of warranty they are also costly to repair.

On another note, I don't think Sage machines which use a thermocoil or thermojet system (Barista Express, Pro, DTP, Bambino Plus) can make consistently good espresso for two reasons:

1) These systems heat water on the fly and the resulting temperature and pressure is very much dependent on flow rate; you really have to find the perfect balance of grind size, dose and tamping pressure to achieve a half decent result. I would say that if you only drink milk based drinks and prefer darker roasts, it's less of an issue and a Sage machine may still be worthwhile.

2) The grinder is OK but not the best. It can grind fine enough but the grinder retains a lot of coffee and you have to purge a fair amount when adjusting finer or coarser. It's easy to waste a lot of beans on these machine in order to get the result you want.

I upgraded to an ACS Minima which is sold by @BlackCatCoffee. It's a dual boiler espresso machine. I have also pre-ordered a Niche grinder but you can also pair it with a Mignon grinder or something similar.

Of course this is a much more significantly outlay compared with the Barista Pro, but it means I concern myself less with machine idiosyncrasies and can focus on making good coffee. There are less costly options but each will have a compromise of sorts and it's for you to decide which compromise you want to make, if any. I know my machine will be temperature stable, provides 9 bar pressure at the group and can steam excellent microfoam for back to back milk based drinks.

I was also thinking long-term and hope that a "proper" espresso machine will last me a long while and if and when something goes wrong, it can easily be repaired or replaced. Many components used are commercial and readily available.


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## ajohn

I owned a BE and a SGP. The reason for buying the SGP was the problem with maintaining a timed dose on the BE. Even more of a problem when a new bean is tried so the one I decided suited me most went into the BE hopper. The timer knob is pretty coarse really for an exact dose and as the dose drifts the adjustments that need to be made are extremely small. The bean I used in it needed something like 1/2 of a knob turn in total while it settled down then maybe 2 small adjustment roughly once a week.

So the SGP was used for all beans I wanted to try. Setting up the timer could waste a lot of beans. Each time the grinder setting is changed the output will too so I only ever weighed beans in with it. Once some beans are ground and it's settled down it held doses to +/- ~0.1g. A little carry over from a previous bean when those were changed. It could be cleaned out but it made more sense to accept that this happened as it was just for one shot. The bean chips on top of the burrs should be vac'd off. That means one or two extra beans may need adding to maintain the dose on the first few shots until they build up again. Cleaning the grinder out completely means longer to settle down especially if the centre burr is removed and when that comes off a new fibre washer will be needed. It's best left alone. After several months it probably is a good idea to remove the outer burr and brush out all grinds you can see and leave the centre burr as is. The grinder will then take longer to settle down. It wont until the grinds that have been removed compact again. Likely to take circa 1 week.  Niche is more or less the same but differences are smaller. Others too. The same thing happens when the hopper is on.

The BE grinder could also be used for weighing in. There is one catch with both. Oily beans. I often drink dark roast monsooned and the ones I use now are way more oily than what I was using in the BE. Weighing in will clog them up pretty quickly. These beans shine due to a coat of oil but no problems at all with any other bean I used.

The pressure gauge on the BE can be useful as it can indicate when the OPV opens. Minimise the flow out of that and the volumetrics will work. The water goes to the drip tray and can be a reason for it filling rather quickly. Sage's manual on what the gauge should do when brewing - I'd be inclined to take no notice as higher will usually be needed. The dual wall filters tend to give that reading. It's also possible to grind into those and as expected at some point when the grind is fine enough brew pressure will start increasing.

Grind adjustment. I could never really make my mind up about the actual difference between the BE and the SGP step size. One thing for certain on the SGP is that most of the steps are not suitable for espresso. The internals of all Sage grinders is the same. A large worm wheel rotates the burrs which are on a screw thread. The parts that turn that vary. The amount the actual wheel moves per step is truly tiny. Adjusting the outer burr much mentioned on Youtube doesn't change the grind at all just the numbers. It may have been appropriative on early designs. On the newer ones it could result in the burrs rubbing at the minimum setting - too much ,throw them away and buy new ones. Actually some time ago a post suggested some one had done that on the Oracle. It could also burn out the motor if not noticed.

The Bambino may be the Sage machine many wanted - a BE without a grinder.  Never seen the internals so pass. One thing I will say about the grinder is that it is not as bad as some seem to think.

Maybe I'll post at some point why conventional ratios should be disregarded but this post is too long anyway. Measuring direct water flow out of the group head - forget it a scace is needed. Preheating is needed but flushing is not the best way to do it.


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## enrvuk

HVL87 said:


> Hi, welcome to the forum.
> 
> Two machines developed a fault so I decided to avoid Sage entirely. If they go wrong out of warranty they are also costly to repair.
> 
> On another note, I don't think Sage machines which use a thermocoil or thermojet system (Barista Express, Pro, DTP, Bambino Plus) can make consistently good espresso for two reasons:
> 
> 1) These systems heat water on the fly and the resulting temperature and pressure is very much dependent on flow rate; you really have to find the perfect balance of grind size, dose and tamping pressure to achieve a half decent result. I would say that if you only drink milk based drinks and prefer darker roasts, it's less of an issue and a Sage machine may still be worthwhile.
> 
> 2) The grinder is OK but not the best. It can grind fine enough but the grinder retains a lot of coffee and you have to purge a fair amount when adjusting finer or coarser. It's easy to waste a lot of beans on these machine in order to get the result you want.
> 
> I upgraded to an ACS Minima which is sold by @BlackCatCoffee. It's a dual boiler espresso machine. I have also pre-ordered a Niche grinder but you can also pair it with a Mignon grinder or something similar.
> 
> Of course this is a much more significantly outlay compared with the Barista Pro, but it means I concern myself less with machine idiosyncrasies and can focus on making good coffee. There are less costly options but each will have a compromise of sorts and it's for you to decide which compromise you want to make, if any. I know my machine will be temperature stable, provides 9 bar pressure at the group and can steam excellent microfoam for back to back milk based drinks.
> 
> I was also thinking long-term and hope that a "proper" espresso machine will last me a long while and if and when something goes wrong, it can easily be repaired or replaced. Many components used are commercial and readily available.


 Thank you for your prompt reply. The faults are concerning but I suspect I will be a little more tolerant of the other difficulties. The ACS Minima looks great, but it's a completely different order of machine. Your definition of half decent and mine are no doubt, somewhat apart!

Good luck with your new purchases, sounds like you will appreciate them.


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## HVL87

enrvuk said:


> Thank you for your prompt reply. The faults are concerning but I suspect I will be a little more tolerant of the other difficulties. The ACS Minima looks great, but it's a completely different order of machine. Your definition of half decent and mine are no doubt, somewhat apart!
> 
> Good luck with your new purchases, sounds like you will appreciate them.


 Can I ask, do you own a Sage machine or do you intend on buying one?


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## enrvuk

HVL87 said:


> Can I ask, do you own a Sage machine or do you intend on buying one?


 I have a Barista Pro. Quite happy so far.


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## HVL87

enrvuk said:


> I have a Barista Pro. Quite happy so far.


 Well that's all that matters!


----------

