# VAT and import duty on Niche sale to EU customers after Brexit?



## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

Just got this update from Niche, to whom it may concern:


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Oohhhh gutted

The loverly hmrc will take about 22% ish of total landed weight

So if it costs 500 plus 20 post you pay it on the 520. Inc handling fee


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> The loverly hmrc will take about 22% ish of total landed weight
> 
> So if it costs 500 plus 20 post you pay it on the 520. Inc handling fee


 My understanding is that this is about sales to EU countries, not to the UK (so not HMRC in this case, but if it's true, then I guess there will be UK VAT on imports from EU?). (Or is you mean to be cynical, I am not sure?).


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Panic over for UK customers - just got this back from them...

U.K. orders are unaffected, we ship from the U.K.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Sorry i did read it as coming in, as i thought they were made abroad.

Ive bought ice hockey gear from the us for yrs and they really whack you


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

itguy said:


> Panic over for UK customers - just got this back from them...


 Yea, this was never about UK customers re Niche.

However, if true, then it would probably mean VAT and import duty for imports into the UK from the EU, which I thought the Brexit deal sought to avoid?


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Doram said:


> Yea, this was never about UK customers re Niche.
> 
> However, if true, then it would probably mean VAT and import duty for imports into the UK from the EU, which I thought the Brexit deal sought to avoid?


 Yes that's what I'd have thought too. All new for everyone I suppose


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

itguy said:


> Yes that's what I'd have thought too. All new for everyone I suppose


 They did say in their message that it "remains very unclear". Thought by now these things should have been clear. Shows what I know...


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

i know it's how these things work, but i always thought it was always a real kick in the teeth that they charge you the customs duty, then charge you VAT on the customs duty to boot. not entirely sure what 'value' the customs duty was 'adds', from my point of view at least.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

If they bring the manufacturing back to the UK they'll be able to sell it as usual...

A bit ironic is uses burrs made in Italy that it sells back to them with VAT and duty because they're in a chassis made in Taiwan.


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## Pete10uk (Jan 3, 2021)

I don't see how this could change things for the uk. These are obviously made abroad, China I think and brexit is all about selling an importing to the eu. If they import them from China to the UK then this has not changed, the issue crops up when they ship from uk to the EU.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

It would be fair to sell it as an export item from UK -(minus) UK VAT. Or coffee grinders are without duties in UK?


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

Pete10uk said:


> I don't see how this could change things for the uk. These are obviously made abroad, China I think and brexit is all about selling an importing to the eu. If they import them from China to the UK then this has not changed, the issue crops up when they ship from uk to the EU.


I think the thread is about the EU customers, obviously nothing will change for the UK customers. I know people in Spain who bought it in December and now they are not sure whether will have to pay an extra price due to customs etc. It's a bit frustrating to think that you paid 600€ and now you may have a little surprise, and not a nice one...


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## Nightrider_1uk (Apr 26, 2020)

Don't think that import duties would apply to anything brought from the EU, but VAT would now be payable IMHO as things from the EU are no longer Duty Free. Same would apply if exporting to the EU i suppose


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Nightrider_1uk said:


> Don't think that import duties would apply to anything brought from the EU, but VAT would now be payable IMHO as things from the EU are no longer Duty Free. Same would apply if exporting to the EU i suppose


 My understanding is VAT is now paid to the origin country (shipping country) and it is duty free. This is the same as it was before for consumers but I believe the EU has a standard minimum VAT rate that we are no longer a part of so in the future our VAT could differ significantly. To avoid import duty and VAT it has to be manufactured in the EU for sales to the UK or in the UK for sales to the EU. The Niche is manufactured in Taiwan and so it can't be sold under the free trade deal into the EU, so buyers in the EU will have to pay import duty and VAT that their country adds just as they would for an import direct from Taiwan or another country that doesn't have a trade deal with the EU.


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## Elroy (Jan 19, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> Oohhhh gutted
> 
> The loverly hmrc will take about 22% ish of total landed weight
> 
> So if it costs 500 plus 20 post you pay it on the 520. Inc handling fee


 22% is 110! > 610. Then for UE buyers 610 another 22% > 744.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

and theres a handling fee too from the freight company


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

The worrying thing for me is that today, on the 19th day following the UK taking back control of its borders and sovereignty it appears that there is no definitive source of government information we can turn to which answers all of these questions.

I'm seriously considering buying a Cafelat Robot from Germany but have no idea how this is going to work as far as vat is concerned and the German retailer's website isn't currently set up to provide a post Brexit answer to the question, presumably because they are as baffled as we are.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)




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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> View attachment 51417


 They are Irish, not German 🙂


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> They are Irish, not German 🙂


 I did not say they were German........LOL I was showing that an EU member exporting to the UK is removing the VAT element at the checkout!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> I did not say they were German........LOL I was showing that an EU member exporting to the UK is removing the VAT element at the checkout!


 Yeah. I understand. Although the Irish are relatively speaking "special" and are more intertwined with the UK system in a way. It's only natural to me that Ireland will be ahead of the game in comparison to other countries, as they speak the same language to start with. 🙂


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yeah. I understand. Although the Irish are relatively speaking "special" and are more intertwined with the UK system in a way. It's only natural to me that Ireland will be ahead of the game in comparison to other countries, as they speak the same language to start with. 🙂


 Point being they are in Southern Ireland therefore governed by EU rules matey


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> Point being they are in Southern Ireland therefore governed by EU rules matey


 I know, I know. We are all on the same page, we are just making different points over the same thing.


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## Karka (Dec 20, 2020)

I've just seen a few posts on the Niche Facebook group that the import duties for people in the EU buying a niche comes to €145. Takes the total price to around €700


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

yikes


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Karka said:


> I've just seen a few posts on the Niche Facebook group that the import duties for people in the EU buying a niche comes to €145. Takes the total price to around €700


 how is £500 plus £145 equalling £700?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

its euro


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## Karka (Dec 20, 2020)

dfk41 said:


> how is £500 plus £145 equalling £700?


 🙄


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## SashaPi (May 2, 2021)

I don't understand what Niche is doing here.

When you buy Niche Zero in UK, you already pay 20% VAT to UK (£416,67 + £83,33 UK VAT = £500 total retail price).

When we buy in Europe, we should pay the same 20% VAT to EU instead of paying it to UK.

Niche should sell it for £416,67 to european customers, and not pay any VAT to UK for these orders. At the border, the EU will charge the £83,33 VAT that will go to the EU (and import duties, about £15).

Niche should not charge VAT for the exports, as VAT is only due in the destination country.

It is unclear to me what Niche is doing here.

Maybe they keep paying VAT to UK for exports, which is wrong and unnecessary.

Or they don't pay VAT for exports, and make a better margin (they make additional £83,33 per order), which is a bit unfair for international customers.

Maybe there is another explanation for this, but I haven't heard anything official from them. Since they sell on indiegogo they don't even issue invoices, so only them can tell us what they are actually doing.

Anyway, I don't understand why EU customers should pay an additional £100.

EU customers should pay slightly more, yes, because of the import duties, but that's only around £15 and not to be confused with VAT.

VAT rate in EU and UK is the same (20%), something doesn't feel right here.


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## SashaPi (May 2, 2021)

The only explanation I came up so far is that they just want to have the same listed price of £500 price on Indiegogo for simplicity and to avoid answering questions like "Hey Niche, why EU price is cheaper than UK ?? That's not fair".

But that's a rather expensive way to achieve simplicity.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@SashaPi - 5e same strategy is also true for the rest of the world. £499. Then the customer pays any duties, VAT, etc, whether you are in France or USA or Mexico. It's no different.

That's how they've chosen to do. Whether it's fair or not, that's subjective. It's their strategy and, whilst there's demand&#8230; no point in changing it if keeps simple for them.

Edit&#8230; thought they moved away from indiegogo?


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Without upsetting anyone, it is their business. It's up to them, how they want to run their business and charge for an in-demand product.

However, they are selling direct now. If they are VAT registered, if a buyer were to demand a VAT invoice, they must issue a detailed VAT invoice, which will show what the VAT is. Otherwise, it is a straight £499 without the break down of the sales value. Given their size, they must be VAT registered

Until a few years ago, a business must register for the VAT, if the annual sales were to be in excess of or an equivalent to £85k a year. I knew this as I was running an FCA licenced VAT registered company. I do not know what the latest rules are.

Brexit is a massive change; the VAT and import duties are payable on either side of the channel. Can the firms remove the VAT on exports from the British soil? I do not know. There is a complex rule re-the country of origin / 3rd country rule, which also kicks-in for the calculation of exports.


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## SashaPi (May 2, 2021)

They sure can run their company however they want, it's a private company and up to the owners to decide.

I am sorry if I offended someone, I was just trying to express some concern about potentially paying the VAT twice or being over-charged compared to the UK customers, is there anything wrong with that? Or me trying to understand & clarify the situation here?

Niche are clear about the fact that you have to pay VAT. What they are not explaining is why they are not removing UK VAT for exports. Yes, they could not care at all about the issue, but I do care. If all UK exports are going to be double-VAT-charged, it will sure affect the sales to EU&#8230;


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Why not ask the EU for clarification? I am sure you will receive a prompt, concise and well explained answer!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Brexit is a massive change; the VAT and import duties are payable on either side of the channel. Can the firms remove the VAT on exports from the British soil? I do not know. There is a complex rule re-the country of origin / 3rd country rule, which also kicks-in for the calculation of exports.


 It looks like they can export VAT free but only over a certain value unless it's to some one who can provide a valid VAT registration number. I'm a fan of a certain Scarlet Espresso grand leveller. If I bought I would pay EU VAT at source and also VAT here. I enquired and this was the reply

Yes we know the Postage Package Charges have increased a lot because of the Brexit. That is why we had to increase the Charges.

You can order the Items directly from our Webshop.

www.scarletproducts.de

For the VAT Issue we still have no option for charging without VAT as it is Consumer Delivery. If you have a Valid VAT No if you have an Company you can try to enter that one and then VAT will be exempted.

Beste Grüße
Best regards

Isabelle

Another site that I might use mentioned that they could ship without local VAT if the prices is > 150 euro. Shipping goes up as it needs to go through export channels.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ask Niche


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

ajohn said:


> It looks like they can export VAT free but only over a certain value unless it's to some one who can provide a valid VAT registration number. I'm a fan of a certain Scarlet Espresso grand leveller. If I bought I would pay EU VAT at source and also VAT here. I enquired and this was the reply
> 
> Yes we know the Postage Package Charges have increased a lot because of the Brexit. That is why we had to increase the Charges.
> 
> ...


 Yeah. The business to business transactions are normally zero rated, if there is a VAT reg number. This is a pure accounting entry and the net VAT is either payable or receivable by the businesses.

Consumers may or may not be charged the VAT. The onus, I understand, is on the exporter to prove that the product and the parts used in the products are local to the exporting nation. When this is not possible to provide, a complex list of products, which may be or may not be zero rated will kick in through the country of origin rules.

If the NZ is produced outside the UK, the VAT and import duty into the UK will kick-in in excess of £135 to the HMRC. If the business were to import, carry out the QA in Britain and then re-export, these costs are the base price for the exports out of the UK. One can avoid the VAT and import duties _iff _they open local offices in the EU, NA and Far East. Some one has to pay for these costs as well.

I am not suggesting if this is the case here. There are far too many unknowns and all these discussions are purely academic.

The only reality as of now is : the customers have a choice of either paying the retail + VAT and import duties or seek an alternative.

Thanks!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> the VAT and import duty into the UK will kick-in in excess of £135 to the HMRC


 That suggests items under £135 wont be changed VAT when imported. Just duty if applicable.  I have my doubts about that as the £15 limit has also been dropped.


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## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

ajohn said:


> That suggests items under £135 wont be changed VAT when imported. Just duty if applicable.  I have my doubts about that as the £15 limit has also been dropped.


 UK VAT for goods costing above £135 is payable at point of entry (normally the courier firm handle it or similar arrangement), below that it's payable at point of sale (if the retailer is sending it to the UK). So, buy something from an online retailer based in France for £100, it's for that retailer to add the £20 and pass that on to the UK HMRC.


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

ajohn said:


> That suggests items under £135 wont be changed VAT when imported. Just duty if applicable.  I have my doubts about that as the £15 limit has also been dropped.


 As Andy said, it is up to the seller to charge the relevant VAT. I am not sure if they charge below £135 or for the entire value. The details on the invoice and the threshold value become the basis at the point of entry. There is no ambiguity on import duties, though.

The VAT is an extremely complex area.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

AndyDClements said:


> So, buy something from an online retailer based in France for £100, it's for that retailer to add the £20 and pass that on to the UK HMRC.


 That is the interesting aspect as to pass the VAT on according to some the retailer would have to register for VAT with UK HMRC.

Say some one bought from the USA or China or even Russia. Previously VAT and duty would have to be paid if >£15 declared value. I have bought from all 3 several times. Also Singapore. Many items below £135 some well above. I am not convinced that this has changed for none vat registered people so items from the EU may finish up having VAT added again when they get here.

🤣 This page would seem to relate to coffee grinders  as an example

https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/commodities/8509400000#import


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## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

@ajohn that bit about companies in USA etc having to register with UK HMRC is spot on, and was a massive bit in the news for a long time, people were saying they'd not be dealing with UK based customers so as to avoid the hassle.

the link you give is for import duty, here's an official govt site explaining it.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021#:~:text=Businesses making sales of goods,selling goods in the UK.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I received something from the USA last week via Amazon Global by ordering off amazon.com tax paid. When it came to shipping costs there was a warning. Use one service and I might find myself paying vat again. The dearer option was via UPS and that wouldn't happen so used it and all has been ok. UPS have collected VAT for HMRC on items I have bought before. Ebay have had a similar set up for a long time. Sellers in the USA can't easily avoid it.

So some services have the facility already. The countries lists in the link I posted are rather odd.

On your link it mentions must register for UK VAT with HMRC but to do that turn over must exceed £85000. This hits people in the UK who run a VAT free company but only if they import goods under £135 in total. It also hits smaller companies outside the UK depending on what they sell. This one of them's comments

https://www.krale.shop/uk/brexit

Scarlet are however charging VAT on items under £135 but where it is going is not clear or if more would be charged when items arrive.

On line market places, quote

Online marketplaces (OMPs), where they are involved in facilitating the sale, will be responsible for collecting and accounting for the VAT.

I assume they will register even China based ones.


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## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

Yes, China based ones like aliexpress are putting the VAT on for UK-bound items.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

AndyDClements said:


> Yes, China based ones like aliexpress are putting the VAT on for UK-bound items.


 Be interesting to see what happens. Never really tied this down but it would appear that a countries domestic carrier, RM in out case, USPS in the USA deliver each others stuff for free at the destination. China Post seems to arrive the same way - delivered by RM or PF and it seems they can't charge for that service, an international agreement. If VAT was involved they obtained £X for a collection fee. Now stuff should just sale through.  I wonder.


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## Niche Europe (Oct 14, 2021)

I'm a little bit late to this forum but I would like to ask for advice. I have asked Niche for a detailed invoice and they sent me instead a screenshot of my original order where it says "thank you for your order", with a photo of google maps where I live and the total price I paid. I told them I needed a standard invoice for tax purposes and they replied saying that my order has no VAT and they were unable to help. Are they not required to provide an invoice with a minimum of information such as the company name/address/unique identification number, etc..? Is this normal? I'm I missing something? Thank you in advance!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Niche Europe Hi, the way I understand it, is you are not paying VAT to the UK, so are effectively buying the unit VAT free, therefore the VAT element is payable to the country you are from. This makes it more expensive of course but I suppose they are right in what they have told you


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Depending where you live you will probably be charged a customs tax. I ordered £23 worth of coffee from Craft House in the UK last week and I was hit with an €11 customs bill on arrival.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

It's interesting on imports as each country have their own rules. I'm very aware the OP is asking a very specific Question about documentation (business address, company name, unique Id etc).

anyway, off topic&#8230; in the USA, any imports from the UK are exempt of any import tax as long as the value is less than USD 800. For instance, the Americans don't pay any import related tax on their Niche as its ordered from the UK.


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## Niche Europe (Oct 14, 2021)

@*dfk41 *I was not complaining about the price I paid and I know they have every right to charge what they want. What strikes me as strange is their refusal to send me a standard detailed invoice. I thought that they were legally required to provide an invoice with a minimum of information but I guess I was wrong...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Niche Europe said:


> @*dfk41 *I was not complaining about the price I paid and I know they have every right to charge what they want. What strikes me as strange is their refusal to send me a standard detailed invoice. I thought that they were legally required to provide an invoice with a minimum of information but I guess I was wrong...


 I think this one has been done to death so many times in various threads that there is a sort of Europe VAT fatigue on the forum. I think the only answers to this are going to be from Niche.


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## Niche Europe (Oct 14, 2021)

I'm sorry if I was not clear in what I was asking. I do not care about the UK/Europe VAT or any other import taxes. I'm happy with what I paid. I only wanted a standard detailed invoice I could use for tax deduction purposes in my country. Nothing more.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Niche Europe said:


> I'm sorry if I was not clear in what I was asking. I do not care about the UK/Europe VAT or any other import taxes. I'm happy with what I paid. I only wanted a standard detailed invoice I could use for tax deduction purposes in my country. Nothing more.


 I understood, but I suspect it's related to their processes.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Niche Europe I do not think I suggested you were complaining about the price! I just tried to explain to you the process as I understood it.


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@Niche Europe

I don't own Niche.

Having run an FCA regulated VAT registered firm in the past, unless the laws have changed now, a VAT registered firm is expected to show the break down of the charges - unit cost, VAT and postage. Please note that I did not state obliged by default. I do not know how this would work, if there is no VAT.

If you have a paid a VAT, if you demand one, a seller have to provide one. This is important for business to business transactions. Because, every firm will have to file a quarterly VAT return (during my time), which you can't unless you have the VAT invoice.

Some firms remove the VAT between EU and UK now, because we are subject to VAT and import duties on either side of the channel. In the absence of not paying a VAT, there isn't a VAT invoice. A firm may simply send an invoice of a payment (in your case £500 for 1 quantity of Niche) or simply advise you to treat the confirmation, which shows the amount paid as an invoice. I have seen both these repeatedly in our routine day to day transactions.

Hoe many times do we receive a VAT invoice from a market place?; in my experience, very few send one, even if you ask.

For your tax return, IMO, a confirmation of payment, credit card / bank statements are more than enough as a proof. If you are filing a VAT return in the EU, your local authority will give you the VAT/customs payments invoice, which is required for your VAT return.

As far as Niche is concerned, neither I know why they don't send a payment invoice nor I actually care, tbh. I might sound rude! Please note that I am not. I understand your point. I get it. They have their own reasons. Only they can answer this, as Dave said.

Despite this small irritation, based on every one's experience, you are certain to get an outstanding support, should anything go wrong - which I doubt.

Enjoy grinding with Niche and your coffee. 😊


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