# Grindy thingy advice



## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

Hello!

I'd like to buy a new grinder for espresso. My first choice was the Kinu M68 until I read about conical vs flat vs uni-modal vs bi-modal vs plzstahp-modal. I might've made that last one up.

Do flat burr grinders really produce tastier espresso than conical for light roasts? Where are all the hand crank flat burr grinders (I really need the exercise)? Should I buy a uni-modal grinder for more even grind size distribution? Are there any I can buy without having to sell a kidney?

As you can tell, I'm slightly confused. I just want a grinder, preferably hand cranked (but not a deal breaker) with nice big burrs of the correct type for light roast espresso that produce lovely uniform grounds, with little retention and easy cleaning / maintenance.

Help Me, Coffee-Forums Kenobi. You're My Only Hope.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

What's your budget?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

All espresso grind is bi-modal.

If you want a hand cranked espresso grinder it will be conical.


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Depends on how much damage you've put your kidneys through









Not aware of any flat hand grinders though. Best thing you can do is take your taste buds somewhere that offers both flats and conicals and see if you can taste the difference, narrowing your choices from there.

John


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Flat burrs need centrifugal force - would be difficult to get enough when hand grinding. They are also much wider making them further unsuitable.

Some maverick might try it one day, you never know.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

There's an HG-1 for sale....


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

GingerBen said:


> What's your budget?


I don't really have one, tbh. I'd like to find the sweet spot where diminishing returns no longer justify increased price for a coffee pleb like me.



MWJB said:


> All espresso grind is bi-modal.
> 
> If you want a hand cranked espresso grinder it will be conical.


Interesting. Why am I reading about grinders like the Eureka Atom Brew Pro which apparently feature unimodal particle distribution?



johnealey said:


> Depends on how much damage you've put your kidneys through


To be honest, I'd feel like the boy racer putting his Clio with the shagged gearbox up for sale. "Well cared for, only taken out for the odd track day on the weekend."



johnealey said:


> Not aware of any flat hand grinders though. Best thing you can do is take your taste buds somewhere that offers both flats and conicals and see if you can taste the difference, narrowing your choices from there.
> 
> John


That's not a bad shout. I'll try to find some poor bastard barista to bother.



MediumRoastSteam said:


> There's an HG-1 for sale....


Is that markedly better than a Kinu M68?


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

z4r9 said:


> Is that markedly better than a Kinu M68?


1. It has larger burrs (83mm vs 68)

2. Unlike the Kinu, it is available


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Stanic said:


> 1. It has larger burrs (83mm vs 68)
> 
> 2. Unlike the Kinu, it is available


It sold yesterday.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Well...also available new


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

z4r9 said:


> Interesting. Why am I reading about grinders like the Eureka Atom Brew Pro which apparently feature unimodal particle distribution?


The clue is in the name


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

z4r9 said:


> Interesting. Why am I reading about grinders like the Eureka Atom Brew Pro which apparently feature unimodal particle distribution?
> 
> .


The secondary grind peak at 40-60um is a byproduct of grinding fine for espresso brewing, as you grind coarser (as for drip), it diminishes, or disappears completely.


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

Stanic said:


> 1. It has larger burrs (83mm vs 68)


Bigger burrs are always better (assuming well aligned)? Are there variances in burr profile or material its made from where a smaller burr could outperform a larger one?



Stanic said:


> The clue is in the name





MWJB said:


> The secondary grind peak at 40-60um is a byproduct of grinding fine for espresso brewing, as you grind coarser (as for drip), it diminishes, or disappears completely.


I see. My take-away from this is that uni-modal distribution is only really relevant when grinding for brew.

Should I even be worrying about flat vs conical? Is there a strong consensus that one produces a better cup than the other for light roast espresso, or is it more a subjective matter of (slightly?) different resulting taste profiles?


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Good questions, the consensus is all other things equal, bigger is better...

but you need to have the ability to taste the difference









Personally, I sometimes prefer shots with Aergrind, sometimes with the Kinu M68 - but there is a difference in coating and probably also burr geometry. The Kinu is much more convenient to use thanks to gears.

Flats are in general recommended for lighter roasts these days, I've read that some years ago it was the other way around - go figure









I think that proper alignment of either is the key to success


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

You should also be thinking about how you will be using the grinder.

If you single dose then conicals often have more retention, which makes life a whole lot harder / wasteful. If you tend to just empty a whole bag into the hopper and go, then its a lesser issue.

Another big consideration is the type of coffee - is this purely for espresso based drinks? If not, then there are very few grinders that can do both, so much so that people end up with two grinders (or one silly expensive one, *ahem*)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

UbiquitousPhoton said:


> You should also be thinking about how you will be using the grinder.
> 
> If you single dose then conicals often have more retention, which makes life a whole lot harder / wasteful. If you tend to just empty a whole bag into the hopper and go, then its a lesser issue.
> 
> Another big consideration is the type of coffee - is this purely for espresso based drinks? If not, then there are very few grinders that can do both, so much so that people end up with two grinders (or one silly expensive one, *ahem*)


A hand cranked grinder will have negligible retention/good dose consistency.

A lot of grinders can do both, some espresso grinders might not have enough coarse range for big drip brews, some brewed grinders might not have a sufficiently fine finishing area/fine enough adjustment pitch, but really the problem comes when trying to make consistent shots/brews when constantly changing grind settings in big increments. But agreed, a grinder for brewed and a grinder for espresso is a good idea...even if they were the same model.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

z4r9 said:


> I see. My take-away from this is that uni-modal distribution is only really relevant when grinding for brew.


Unimodal is most relevant for grinding coarse, you could still conceivably be bi-modal at finer brewed settings. Forget modes, you can't detect them without laser particle analysis anyway. Worry more about grinding finer/coarser to steer the flavour of whatever method you are using.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What's your drink of preference, espresso? Americano? Flat white?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

There seems to be a view that conical pushes taste to the brighter end and produces a less even grind. Or different distribution etc. So may be preferable for darker roasts. A light roast is more likely to be brighter so pushing it further may not be a good idea. I've deliberately avoided terms like acidity and fruit notes.

I noticed this recently comparing a lowly Sage conical with a Mazzer mini. There is a but though. I have been working down in weight of grinds keeping ratio's more or less the same via the grinder setting. Shifting from 15.5g to 14g has resulted in a much brighter taste from a dark roast for a very small change of the Mini's grinder setting. LOL I've worked down in 1/2g steps. Probably finish up using 14.5 but I also want to know just how low I can go in this particular basket.

Burr sizes crop up a lot. My Mini uses 64mm burrs as does the Jolly. The grinding rates are entirely different. It seems that the Mini is aimed at minimum heat into the grinds.

Bigger burrs say 80mm- the speed varies according to make, Ceado for instance run them slower than some others. The output rate may vary as well irrespective of the speed. It all depends on the design of the burrs.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> There seems to be a view that conical pushes taste to the brighter end and produces a less even grind. Or different distribution etc. So may be preferable for darker roasts. A light roast is more likely to be brighter so pushing it further may not be a good idea. I've deliberately avoided terms like acidity and fruit notes.
> 
> John
> 
> -


How do you explain a light roaster like Tim Wendelboe using conical grinders?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Its really hard to generalise these things , a high end conical grinder well aligned can make tasty light roasted espresso perhaps more so than an average poorly made flat grinder.

I have had great light roasted espresso from a conical and a flat grinder before.

To the OP buy what you can afford and works for you in terms of functionality ( size , retention, workflow )

Whatever grinder you settle on, someone somewhere will tell you thats there is better and you should have got the opposite of conical or flat.

One point of note, hand grinding espresso, especially lighter roasted coffee, can get really boring , really quickly.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> How do you explain a light roaster like Tim Wendelboe using conical grinders?


I don't - as I said there seems to be a view - not mine. I haven't got one until I find out. Hence a Robur coming on line soon. I thought I had a view and then found I could push things the same way on flat.

Another view - via the President of some grinder manufacturer is that conical is all about flavour and aroma. Big burrs to keep output rates up at lower speeds. Flat all about extraction. He also mentions grinding speed - inferring heat plays a part (IMHO) Video some where on youtube. Flat needs the speed to get the beans into the burrs.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> How do you explain a light roaster like Tim Wendelboe using conical grinders?


I suspect they taste good and dont break down when it's busy ( Peak ) or suffer from clump crushers failing ( Mythos ) .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> I don't - as I said there seems to be a view - not mine. I haven't got one until I find out. Hence a Robur coming on line soon. I thought I had a view and then found I could push things the same way on flat.
> 
> Another view - via the President of some grinder manufacturer is that conical is all about flavour and aroma. Big burrs to keep output rates up at lower speeds. Flat all about extraction. He also mentions grinding speed - inferring heat plays a part (IMHO) Video some where on youtube. Flat needs the speed to get the beans into the burrs.
> 
> ...


So flavour and extraction aren't linked then ?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> So flavour and extraction aren't linked then ?


Did I say that ? Surprised you even think of it like that - from the wiki on the subject. Shouldn't need posting on here.



> *Extraction* Also known as "solubles yield" or "Extraction Yield" - what percentage (by weight) of the grounds are dissolved in the water. Put simply, how much of the coffee in the brewer ends up in the cup.


John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Did I say that ? Surprised you even think of it like that - from the wiki on the subject. Shouldn't need posting on here.
> 
> John
> 
> -


He's responding to your comment about flats being all about extraction & conicals being about flavour, you seem to suggest that extraction & flavour are unrelated.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> He's responding to your comment about flats being all about extraction & conicals being about flavour, you seem to suggest that extraction & flavour are unrelated.


Yep.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> He's responding to your comment about flats being all about extraction & conicals being about flavour, you seem to suggest that extraction & flavour are unrelated.


I was quoting some else's comment not mine and in any case extraction is extraction. Taste / flavour is something else. One interesting aspect about the comment is the use of the word extraction. The way I read that is flat will extract more - but how much, ratio etc.






John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> I was quoting some else's comment not mine and in any case extraction is extraction. Taste / flavour is something else. One interesting aspect about the comment is the use of the word extraction. The way I read that is flat will extract more - but how much, ratio etc.


Extraction is flavouring your hot water with dissolved coffee.

If your grinder does not allow you to extract the coffee, you just have hot water.

If you enjoyed the flavour you extracted, you did it right.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> I was quoting some else's comment not mine and in any case extraction is extraction. Taste / flavour is something else. One interesting aspect about the comment is the use of the word extraction. The way I read that is flat will extract more - but how much, ratio etc.


They may be something else? But what? Any ideas?

They, extraction and flavour are correlated though. If you extract nothing, you have no coffee "flavour"


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

UbiquitousPhoton said:


> Another big consideration is the type of coffee - is this purely for espresso based drinks? If not, then there are very few grinders that can do both, so much so that people end up with two grinders (or one silly expensive one, *ahem*)


I have a Kinu M47 which I use for drip at the moment. The new grinder would be exclusively for espresso.



Mrboots2u said:


> What's your drink of preference, espresso? Americano? Flat white?


Just interested in straight espresso from light roasted beans. I don't drink milk at home but will indulge in a Flat White occassionally whilst out and about.



Mrboots2u said:


> To the OP buy what you can afford and works for you in terms of functionality ( size , retention, workflow )
> 
> Whatever grinder you settle on, someone somewhere will tell you thats there is better and you should have got the opposite of conical or flat.
> 
> One point of note, hand grinding espresso, especially lighter roasted coffee, can get really boring , really quickly.


I already hand grind for drip every day and it doesn't bother me in the slightest, but will try out an espresso grind to get an idea of how much longer it would take. The grinder would only be producing enough for probably two doses a day for my consumption and that's it.

With my current drip workflow I weigh the beans and grind for each drink. A lot of highly regarded grinders look bulky and seem to be designed with commerical environments in mind. I don't need a hopper, I don't want a chute which retains grounds, I have no need for a dosing system, etc. The current list of potentials is:

* Kinu M68

Positive: Manual, small footprint, easy on the eye

Negative: Unavailable

* Monolith

Positive: Best quality grounds (?)

Negative: Expensive, 110V(?), fugly

* HG-1

Positive: Manual, well reviewed

Negative: Unavailable(?)

More suggestions welcome!


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Compare the Monolith to the announced Ceado Hero to see how 'fugly' looks like









The Hg One looks available at their website, rather pricey though

IMHO, your Kinu M47 should be used for espresso and you should try to source a second hand Knock grinder for drip


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

Stanic said:


> Compare the Monolith to the announced Ceado Hero to see how 'fugly' looks like


Oof, that's high-end audiophile level fugly.



Stanic said:


> The Hg One looks available at their website, rather pricey though


Oh, you're right! By my calculations it'd be around £1200+ to get into my hands. Not outrageous but almost twice the price of the M68 for what I'd assume are diminishing returns?



Stanic said:


> IMHO, your Kinu M47 should be used for espresso and you should try to source a second hand Knock grinder for drip


Interesting idea! I also have a Eureka Mignon gathering dust in a cupboard which hasn't seen any use since my Mypressi Twist broke a few years ago and I keep meaning to sell. I'm guessing the M47 produces better grounds for espresso? Would a Made by Knock be comparable to the M47 for drip?


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

I think that Knock would be pretty comparable and capable for drip, they are great for espresso too

as for Kinu M68 price - it was briefly on their website, selling for nearly 1000 euro - but that was a newer version to one I've got, with some further updates, so that will give you a lead what price you might expect, should they ever sell it again (I've got mine second hand)


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

Stanic said:


> I think that Knock would be pretty comparable and capable for drip, they are great for espresso too


I guess the question is how much better would £1000+ grinder be for espresso compared to the M47? I can't really compare them side by side.



Stanic said:


> as for Kinu M68 price - it was briefly on their website, selling for nearly 1000 euro - but that was a newer version to one I've got, with some further updates, so that will give you a lead what price you might expect, should they ever sell it again (I've got mine second hand)


Huh. Price has gone up a lot over a few years. I suspect there are huge markups on enthusiast grinders because people will pay whatever?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> They may be something else? But what? Any ideas?
> 
> They, extraction and flavour are correlated though. If you extract nothing, you have no coffee "flavour"


opcorn:Wow if you don't put any beans in neither type produce any flavour.

On the other hand if beans from the same batch are put in one type to make a drink and then in the another type to do likewise keeping all of the variable aspects the same would there be any difference in flavour - extraction - or level of taste ?

John

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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

z4r9 said:


> I guess the question is how much better would £1000+ grinder be for espresso compared to the M47? I can't really compare them side by side.
> 
> Huh. Price has gone up a lot over a few years. I suspect there are huge markups on enthusiast grinders because people will pay whatever?


I also had a Kinu M68. Great grinder, very simple to clean and take apart. Shot quality was superb!

As for the M47 I've never owned or used one so can't comment.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

I'll say, get the Niche









but the Kinu M47 has very positive reviews so I wouldn't hesitate a second to use it for espresso too


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Stanic said:


> I'll say, get the Niche
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's what I would do. If you need something now, get something second hand already devalued. Then when you get the Niche or whatever else you can sell it on at very little loss.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> opcorn:Wow if you don't put any beans in neither type produce any flavour.
> 
> On the other hand if beans from the same batch are put in one type to make a drink and then in the another type to do likewise keeping all of the variable aspects the same would there be any difference in flavour - extraction - or level of taste ?
> 
> ...


I struggle to understand your question or logic here.

One type of what? Grinder?

Extraction yield is a measure, but it correlates to taste preference. This has been referenced since the 50s and the work of MIT.

What is "level of taste", how is this different to flavour?

Do you have a scale of tastes level that I am unaware of?


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

Stanic said:


> I'll say, get the Niche
> 
> but the Kinu M47 has very positive reviews so I wouldn't hesitate a second to use it for espresso too


Isn't that crowd funded? I have been so burned by Kickstarters in the past, makes me hesitant nowadays. I guess it's difficult to say how much better than the M47 it might be until people have it in their hands and can review it... Given that the M68 might also become available I think you might be right about sticking with the M47 and biding time. In fact, I initially thought that the M47 would also be a travel grinder but it's honestly a bit heavy, so I was already thinking about a lighter travel grinder. Perhaps the Feld2?



MediumRoastSteam said:


> That's what I would do. If you need something now, get something second hand already devalued. Then when you get the Niche or whatever else you can sell it on at very little loss.


This also seems like solid advice. You guys are talking me out of spending a bundle here, seems like the opposite of what I've come to expect on forums. ;D


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Hehe if you have an itch and need to scratch it with your credit card, well go for it lol

But you might find out that other than grinding comfort, you won't get that much of an upgrade and end up with a buyer's remorse

There is always some MBK popping up for sale from time to time so you might just have to be vigilant

As for Niche, I wouldn't be too worried, looks like a solid project and you can always wait until they "throw them onto the market"


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> I struggle to understand your question or logic here.
> 
> One type of what? Grinder?
> 
> ...


Rather quickly the suggestion is that type of burr changes flavour. Flavours have "notes". Our tongues may be more sensitive to some than others eg fruit notes. I don't see how that aspect can be directly associated with the level of extraction as it suggest the grinders extract different flavours to different degrees according to the type of burr that is being used.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Rather quickly the suggestion is that type of burr changes flavour. Flavours have "notes". Our tongues may be more sensitive to some than others eg fruit notes. I don't see how that aspect can be directly associated with the level of extraction as it suggest the grinders extract different flavours to different degrees according to the type of burr that is being used.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Im bowing out, this again makes no real sense at all.

Ive broken my cardinal rule. So to quote the why don't you gang

Am off to do something less boring instead. Sitting at home surfing CFUK , turn it of it's no good for me.

Why Don't you.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Im bowing out, this again makes no real sense at all.
> 
> Ive broken my cardinal rule. So to quote the why don't you gang
> 
> ...












c'mon, MrB, let's do it


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Rather quickly the suggestion is that type of burr changes flavour. Flavours have "notes". Our tongues may be more sensitive to some than others eg fruit notes. I don't see how that aspect can be directly associated with the level of extraction as it suggest the grinders extract different flavours to different degrees according to the type of burr that is being used.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Beans taste different too, we're not really that bothered about things tasting different if they are still enjoyable.

Conicals and flats can both extract normally. Flats can go finer, but the extraction ranges overlap.

Extraction relates to flavour balance & brew efficiency, not making a chocolatey bean taste like wine gums.

If you pull a conical shot to 20% at 1:2.5 & a flat to 20% at 1:2.5, you'll have 2 shots at the same strength & brew efficiency, 2 conicals may taste different, 2 flats may taste different, a Costa Rican might be % less, a Kenyan a % more.

Even at the same strength mouthfeel may vary between the 2.

If you know what you want in terms of strength & mouthfeel, go for that thing because you know it works & if you can afford it.


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

Stanic said:


> Hehe if you have an itch and need to scratch it with your credit card, well go for it lol


hah. I don't buy toys on credit cards, unless for fraud protection. TBH, I'd rather spend as little as possible but it's easy to get caught up in the gear hype. I don't really know anyone who has a decent coffee setup of any kind, so I just associate "good" coffee with speciality coffee shops and their expensive gear. It's probably a bit like an amateur photographer spending a bundle on a high-end DSLR setup when they could take the same pictures according to their ability with a mirrorless setup at half the price and bulk.



Stanic said:


> But you might find out that other than grinding comfort, you won't get that much of an upgrade and end up with a buyer's remorse


Maybe I'm a masochist but I quite like the investment of effort required grinding by hand, it somehow increases sweetness in the cup.











Stanic said:


> There is always some MBK popping up for sale from time to time so you might just have to be vigilant


Nice, I'll keep an eye out.



Stanic said:


> As for Niche, I wouldn't be too worried, looks like a solid project and you can always wait until they "throw them onto the market"


I'm not in any great rush as I'm waiting for the Robot. Just wanted to assess my options in case I needed to save up for something obscenely expensive, but it doesn't appear to be the case.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

good analogy with photography, I quite get it as I've got a tiny photog company myself...try to cooperate with the equipment and the light, not against it









well TBH I wouldn't mind to get the Monolith Flat in the long run but still, do I really need it? that is the big q


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Stanic said:


> TBH I wouldn't mind to get the Monolith Flat in the long run but still, do I really need it? that is the big q


That's why grinders are a pain in the posterior. You wont know until you have it.

Personally I would avoid that one. I use and buy a variety of cutting tools and where possible avoid ones with what ever the latest coating is as I have discovered iit's often a cheap way of hiding what's underneath the coating. Lots must have cottoned on to this now - it's even possible to buy ground tip twist drills from toolstation these days. The same even applies to coated tungsten carbide lathe tools but sometimes they are unavoidable.

John

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## nonickch (Mar 27, 2017)

> Fk


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

ajohn said:


> Personally I would avoid that one. I use and buy a variety of cutting tools and where possible avoid ones with what ever the latest coating is as I have discovered iit's often a cheap way of hiding what's underneath the coating. Lots must have cottoned on to this now - it's even possible to buy ground tip twist drills from toolstation these days. The same even applies to coated tungsten carbide lathe tools but sometimes they are unavoidable.


You've piqued my cynicism here. It would make sense that the coatings are a way of reducing manufacturing costs by using a cheaper material or process for the main body and then coating it with a thin layer of a fancy material which exhibits superior properties but only for a short time as the coating wears revealing the poor quality construction of the underlying component. But hey, now the component is a consumable which you buy every 6 months instead of 6 years even for a consumer workload! Maybe it's not quite this bad but definitely something worth researching prior to purchase.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

z4r9 said:


> You've piqued my cynicism here. It would make sense that the coatings are a way of reducing manufacturing costs by using a cheaper material or process for the main body and then coating it with a thin layer of a fancy material which exhibits superior properties but only for a short time as the coating wears revealing the poor quality construction of the underlying component. But hey, now the component is a consumable which you buy every 6 months instead of 6 years even for a consumer workload! Maybe it's not quite this bad but definitely something worth researching prior to purchase.


I think this is not quite the right way to look at it.

Typically burrs are uncoated, arrive with small manufacturing defects that then need to be seasoned out for optimal performance. Coated burrs will normally need to blasted/pre seasoned prior to coating, you hit the ground running.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

z4r9 said:


> You've piqued my cynicism here. It would make sense that the coatings are a way of reducing manufacturing costs by using a cheaper material or process for the main body and then coating it with a thin layer of a fancy material which exhibits superior properties but only for a short time as the coating wears revealing the poor quality construction of the underlying component. But hey, now the component is a consumable which you buy every 6 months instead of 6 years even for a consumer workload! Maybe it's not quite this bad but definitely something worth researching prior to purchase.


What I said about these coatings is true in other areas. Me a cynic - well yes from experience. Ceramic burrs are another one. Make a mould and then produce and probably heat it up - metal, machine and then heat treat. It's a fact that any cheap hand grinder is likely to have ceramic burrs in it. Titanium coating has also been used as a sales point - look how great this is I mean it's titanium coated. In the metal working and other similar areas there is no doubt it's been used to hide what's underneath.








much to my amazement seasoning the burrs on my mazzer mini did make a difference. As 750g of beans is nothing to a set of decent burrs all that must be happening is a very slight smoothing of rather sharp corners / edges. I suppose coating could do something similar but afraid I am inclined to think it's bull stuff. If a company offers 2 versions one coated and one not I'd be inclined to look at them really carefully if there was any noticeable difference in use.







Not that I am a cynic of course but people who sell stuff want to do as much of that as possible so will encourage buying anyway they can - that's life.








When I ran all of those beans through it as quickly as I could I wondered if I was going to overheat the motor due to how they rate them. It didn't warm up noticeably at all. If some one wants an idea of just how aggressive the burrs are in an Italian commercial level grinder I suspect stated motor power can give people an idea. Bigger burrs can obviously produce more quickly than smaller ones but also need more power. It can also be worth looking at labels and in manuals to see if they state on time to off time ratios.

John

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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

MWJB said:


> I think this is not quite the right way to look at it.
> 
> Typically burrs are uncoated, arrive with small manufacturing defects that then need to be seasoned out for optimal performance. Coated burrs will normally need to blasted/pre seasoned prior to coating, you hit the ground running.


Coating seems extraneous to the point you're making. If blasting / 'pre-seasoning' is desirable to remove small defects why not integrate it into the manufacturing process as a finishing step without the additional cost of coating afterwards?


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

ajohn said:


> What I said about these coatings is true in other areas. Me a cynic - well yes from experience. Ceramic burrs are another one. Make a mould and then produce and probably heat it up - metal, machine and then heat treat. It's a fact that any cheap hand grinder is likely to have ceramic burrs in it. Titanium coating has also been used as a sales point - look how great this is I mean it's titanium coated. In the metal working and other similar areas there is no doubt it's been used to hide what's underneath.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting, and I can totally see how rounding off sharp edges or slight defects could be beneficial but it seems you could do this with a quick acid bath or something without the need to coat afterwards, unless I'm missing something?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

z4r9 said:


> Coating seems extraneous to the point you're making. If blasting / 'pre-seasoning' is desirable to remove small defects why not integrate it into the manufacturing process as a finishing step without the additional cost of coating afterwards?


Cost & longevity (TiN coated are quoted as lasting around 3x longer, maybe overkill for home use?). If you don't want coated burrs, buy a grinder with uncoated.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

z4r9 said:


> Coating seems extraneous to the point you're making. If blasting / 'pre-seasoning' is desirable to remove small defects why not integrate it into the manufacturing process as a finishing step without the additional cost of coating afterwards?


Because the vast majority of the burrs that are not coated go to commercial use and are 'seasoned' within the first few days of grinding - it is a needless expense to do this in the factory. The home market where pre-seasoned burrs are beneficial is comparatively tiny. The 'pre-seasoning' of coated burrs is a happy side effect for home users who can afford it, it is a by product of coating the burrs for longevity.


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Cost & longevity (TiN coated are quoted as lasting around 3x longer, maybe overkill for home use?). If you don't want coated burrs, buy a grinder with uncoated.


I wonder if any testing has been conducted to confirm manufacturer claims.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

z4r9 said:


> I wonder if any testing has been conducted to confirm manufacturer claims.


Your mission, should you choose to accept it....?

If you don't believe manufacturers claims, what are you going to buy? Grinders are made by grinder manufacturers.

Manufacturers claims for grinders tend to stick to the objective.

Perhaps it's time for a recap, you want a hand crank, or an electric grinder that is available to buy, it should be cheap, but can be expensive, it should not be made by a fibber.

So far you have ruled out a monolith on looks, that just leaves ...*everything else*.

What would you call a reasonable budget?

How much height do you have under kitchen cabinets, footprint space etc.?

Do you want short gloopy shots, longer thinner shots, milk drinks, Americanos?

Do you want hopper/auger fed, single dose?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

z4r9 said:


> I wonder if any testing has been conducted to confirm manufacturer claims.


If you are interested in how Ti coatings effect longevity you can find plenty of info on how it effects tools online - not directly analogous to coffee burrs but it is logical to assume a similar outcome.

Ti also has a lubricating effect on the base metal, further changing its properties when used for cutting/grinding.

Other factors in a grinder like alignment, burr size, burr design etc will have a much larger effect than a Ti coating - but suggesting it is all marketing fluff seems a bit of a reach to me.


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## martinierius (Sep 28, 2014)

I have an aergrind, kinu M47 and M68 and can conform that the M68 is by far most ergonomic for espresso.

3-4 espresso's a day, grinding about 16g per shot. Perfect for single dosing, almost no retention if you use a smal spray. I still like it very much.

Niche might change that when it arrives/ becomes available.

M47 is very capabele alsof bit a little bit harder to grind. I would keep it and if budget allows wait for the M68 to become available new or used. Have you tried contacting Kinu?


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Your mission, should you choose to accept it....?
> 
> If you don't believe manufacturers claims, what are you going to buy? Grinders are made by grinder manufacturers.
> 
> Manufacturers claims for grinders tend to stick to the objective.


Good to know. @ajohn's comments about coated tools just got me wondering. conspiracykeanu.jpg



MWJB said:


> Perhaps it's time for a recap, you want a hand crank, or an electric grinder that is available to buy, it should be cheap, but can be expensive, it should not be made by a fibber.


Seems like an accurate summary.











MWJB said:


> So far you have ruled out a monolith on looks, that just leaves ...*everything else*.


I mean, I don't think it looks great but it's not ruled out which is why I put it in my list earlier.



MWJB said:


> What would you call a reasonable budget?


I could go up to £2k without having to save up but right now I'm confused whether I need anything more than a hand grinder for a few hundred?!



MWJB said:


> How much height do you have under kitchen cabinets, footprint space etc.?


Around 50cm~ height, same for footprint, maybe? I don't want anything huge.



MWJB said:


> Do you want short gloopy shots, longer thinner shots, milk drinks, Americanos?


Mmm gloopy. Just espresso / ristretto doses with light roasted beans. No milk, etc.



MWJB said:


> Do you want hopper/auger fed, single dose?


Single dose. I like to weigh and only make a few cups a day so don't want beans sitting around in a hopper.


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

martinierius said:


> I have an aergrind, kinu M47 and M68 and can conform that the M68 is by far most ergonomic for espresso.
> 
> 3-4 espresso's a day, grinding about 16g per shot. Perfect for single dosing, almost no retention if you use a smal spray. I still like it very much.
> 
> Niche might change that when it arrives/ becomes available.


Thanks for your impressions. Keeping an eye on the Niche, too.



martinierius said:


> M47 is very capabele alsof bit a little bit harder to grind. I would keep it and if budget allows wait for the M68 to become available new or used. Have you tried contacting Kinu?


I did indeed email Kinu but haven't recieved a response since... almost a week? Maybe I'll try again. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Where abouts are you located? If you are lucky you might be able to visit a member or two to try out the conical vs flat question from your OP yourself.

You can make excellent espresso with a Feldgrind and a manual lever like the Flair - beyond this you are already well into diminishing returns, but for many the 'god shots' and love of honing their technique means they want to buy the very best they can.

There is a EG-1 in the FS section for £2k. Just saying.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Cough, and a Monolith Conical:whistle:


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

Dylan said:


> Where abouts are you located? If you are lucky you might be able to visit a member or two to try out the conical vs flat question from your OP yourself.


Fairly central (West) London. I think being able to actually try for myself and decide whether I can taste the differences in the cup would make a lot of sense. Right now I really have no reference aside from big expensive grinders in nice coffee shops make tasty coffee.



Dylan said:


> You can make excellent espresso with a Feldgrind and a manual lever like the Flair - beyond this you are already well into diminishing returns, but for many the 'god shots' and love of honing their technique means they want to buy the very best they can.


I actually plan on using something similar to the Flair, I backed the Cafelat Robot on kickstarter which will be my only espresso capable device for now. Would a simple lever like that even benefit from a high-end grinder or am I just wasting money?


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

That EG-1 has got to be worth travelling to see if your budget allows.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Paul from Cafelat makes shots in his Robot videos using the Monolith Flat so that tells you something


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

Stanic said:


> Paul from Cafelat makes shots in his Robot videos using the Monolith Flat so that tells you something


Right, but because it's a reasonable pairing or because he runs a coffee nirvana and he just happens to have it to hand?


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

I'd agree with the second option lol


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

z4r9 said:


> Right, but because it's a reasonable pairing or because he runs a coffee nirvana and he just happens to have it to hand?


Quite possibly because he has one to hand. There's a consensus that if you put better in you'll get better out though. It all depends on where your tolerance for performance vs budget lies really.


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Quite possibly because he has one to hand. There's a consensus that if you put better in you'll get better out though. It all depends on where your tolerance for performance vs budget lies really.


This is really the crux of the problem; I have no idea.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

> I actually plan on using something similar to the Flair, I backed the Cafelat Robot on kickstarter which will be my only espresso capable device for now. Would a simple lever like that even benefit from a high-end grinder or am I just wasting money?


As you have a sizable budget you may as well buy a Feldgrind. At least you will then have a base to compare much more expensive grinders too, and at £150 it's one of the best value-to-performace propositions out there. You will also have a travel grinder to take with you if you ever go away.

Will you be able to tell the difference between the Feldgrind and (for example) an eg-1 or monolith? Probably... But it's an expensive probably and you should absolutely see if you can try one out before spending that kinda dosh.


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## martinierius (Sep 28, 2014)

Dylan said:


> As you have a sizable budget you may as well buy a Feldgrind. .


In my opinion that's a downgrade from the Kinu M47 that is already in posession.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

martinierius said:


> In my opinion that's a downgrade from the Kinu M47 that is already in posession.


You or z4r9?


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

Dylan said:


> You or z4r9?


I have a Kinu M47 which I use for drip every day. And a Eureka Mignon I haven't used for espresso in a few years but was previously used with a Mypressi Twist, didn't seem to work so well for drip hence the M47.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

For compact Ceado seem to take the biscuit covering the widest range of grinders. I believe this review is by some one who uses this forum at times.

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/CeadoCoffeeGrinderReviewv1.5.pdf

From memory it also goes some way concerning weighing in. Other than hand grinders there does seem to be problems weighing in. The grind quality gets messed up due beans being bounced around. I've bean weighing in lately. Take the mazzer for instance. I use a weight over the dose of beans to try and keep down pop corning as it's usually called - beans bouncing about. I've fitted it with a rubber lens hood so that this can be collapsed to generate a puff of air to blow residuals out. It does clear the grind chamber and also the burrs to a great extent. It doesn't completely clear the outlet chute from the grind chamber. That has to be brushed out manually. It's a faction of a gram but sadly unless it is brushed out it builds up. Initially I just used the lens hood. Bits of beans got all over the place, not a lot but scattered around the grinder. Then added a lid. The inside of the lens hood gets coated with bits. Then added a weight. That keeps the bits and beans in place but the last few beans take time to grind as there are no more to help them get into the burrs. I also have to brush bits in from under the weight before finally firing up the grinder and generating the puff while it's running - I can hear stuff being ground when the puff goes in. Mazzer do seem to take steps to prevent beans pop corning when they are close to the burrs also to prevent the burrs from spinning the beans around in the hopper. Some don't.

I've also weighed in on the Sage grinder. I've used several kg's of the same bean with the hopper on. Weighing in messed it up after a few hundred grams. Pop corning again as it uses pretty small burrs that spin fairly rapidly. It's been ok with other beans I use from time to time. Seems to be a problem with beans that contain lots of oil.

In need of help, probably from psychologist I have bought a used Robur. Part of the reason for that is the size of the conical burrs. The aperture going into them is big enough for beans to fall in rather than just be pre broken up one way or another. This should improve things as far as weighing in goes. I can also add a puffer and weight. If I used it with the hopper on the retention under the burrs would be pretty huge. When weighing in I expect that to be swept out.







Have to wait and see.

Some grinders with the hopper on have more retention than others. The mazzer mini for instance has been stated as being huge - reason where the hopper closer is - lots of beans under it. There is a lot less on some others. A common answer to stale grinds when a hopper is used is to grind X grams and throw them away. I reckon 10g would do to clear the mini and many other flat burr grinders. Afraid I don't think that storing beans in a hopper is that much different to storing them in a decent bean can. I do wish they took some trouble to filter light out though but probably worrying about nothing.







Maybe I'll get some car window tinting film and apply that just to stop me wondering.

Maybe Niche is the answer. Pass. Sorely tempted but I have a lathe and a milling machine and like to have a project especially in the winter so who knows. I have more or less schemed something out in my mind aimed at home use. Commercial grinders for all sorts of reasons aren't really in intended for that sort of use - it really shows too. There is one that tilts the burrs and shoots stuff out at an enormous rate along with low retention but that's about it as far as I am aware.

John

-


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

z4r9 said:


> I have a Kinu M47 which I use for drip every day. And a Eureka Mignon I haven't used for espresso in a few years but was previously used with a Mypressi Twist, didn't seem to work so well for drip hence the M47.


Right, I missed that - for sure there is no need to replace with a Feldgrind in that case!


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

Thanks to everyone in this thread, you've helped me figure out my grindy conundrum!

Given the prices of most options presented it doesn't look like I'll need to save up to get a grinder during the wait for the Cafelat Robot. I can start off using my M47 for espresso when it arrives and by that time the Kinu M68, Niche and other options may have become available.

Another idea I have is to take the Robot for a day out. If I can find a friendly coffee afficionado with one of those high end grinders, I could bring my Robot, M47 and some nice beans along to try side by side and compare. That way I'll actually get a handle on whether I can taste differences in the cup which would probably more informative than many hours of reading!


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

very good idea


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Eminently sensible.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

More than sensible, maybe I should of read up first,haha


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Jony said:


> More than sensible, maybe I should of read up first,haha


Yea but


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Nou but


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Going to amend this later.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

The Kinu M68 is available, scroll down on their website

Looks like they've added another useful modifications like vacuum suction table "holder" and new grinds container, also new coating on the burrs. The price is eye-watering though...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Stanic said:


> The Kinu M68 is available, scroll down on their website
> 
> Looks like they've added another useful modifications like vacuum suction table "holder" and new grinds container, also new coating on the burrs. The price is eye-watering though...


:act-uperhaps people get tears of joy when using it as well another type when they buy one.

John

-


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

it surely is great in the cup







at least mine is


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## z4r9 (Oct 27, 2017)

Stanic said:


> The Kinu M68 is available, scroll down on their website
> 
> Looks like they've added another useful modifications like vacuum suction table "holder" and new grinds container, also new coating on the burrs. The price is eye-watering though...


Ohh, nice! The price is certainly a bit higher than it used to be, as you pointed out. Still very much on my shortlist but going to continue holding out until nearer the time my Robot ships.


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