# Sage Barista Pro consistently good results, but all of a sudden...



## Strugglinauthor (Feb 14, 2021)

Hi All,

New to the forum and so first of all - greetings.

I've read the useful 'Read me first' post about Sage machines and some of it might have addressed my issue if I hadn't been getting consistently good results for some time. I've had the machine since August '20 and after some initial finding my feet I settled on 13.5 seconds grind time and a grind setting of 12. This gave me a 25-28 extraction time. I have only ever used whole beans from the same supplier (the excellent JGC), max 2-3 weeks old (I only buy small quantities) and in all honesty I've needed the merest of tweaks to those settings to produce what to my taste is great coffee.

Recently I noticed the extraction taking longer with some dripping occurring. In addition, despite this being a volumetric machine, the resulting liquid was less than usual and the flavour was not up to the usual standard. Needless to say the machine is regularly cleaned, flushed, de-scaled, new filter (I don't live in a hard water area anyway) and the beans are always fresh. Tamping is, or should be, consistent as I do it every day. I kept increasing the grind setting, bit-by-bit, but it seemed to make little difference, which was odd.

Sage has been very helpful but basically have checked what I'd expect them to check - have you de-scaled it, are you using fresh beans etc.

Yesterday, weirdly, I got an OK cup of coffee with no dripping on a grind setting 15 and a grind time of 13 seconds. I wondered if it was settling down again 😗. But then this morning, same settings, same beans, but a very slow, dark extraction with lots of dripping. It went down the sink. I tried again using a grind setting of 21 (!) and even trying the razor tool to see if there was too much coffee. I could tell after grinding that the coffee was too coarse but I decided to press ahead. The result? My usual extraction time with a slow, steady flow and no dripping, But the coffee had very little crema and was thin-tasting.

I know there could be a number of factors in play that, without looking over my shoulder, may not be obvious. But has anyone else experienced something similar and/or have any tips/suggestions?

Thanks!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The volumetrics tend to drift more as the brew pressure goes up. The reason is pretty simple. It measures what is going through the puck and out of the over pressure valve. Providing the latter is not excessive it works rather well. Change the flow through the puck in some way and the balance changes as well so coffee output will change.

I used the earlier BE and also the timer knob on it. I found I needed to keep a eye on the weight that came out and make exceedingly small changes to the knob on it. The digital display should be a lot easier to use. I suspect this is why you have had a change. The weight would hold pretty well but eventually show signs of drifting - sometimes as the beans age and also sometimes rather noticeable when the grinder was cleaned. If completely cleaned removing the inner burr and that will change the weight that comes out for a while. I mostly left that area alone. Once when I did clean it completely the inner burr worked loose. I suspect that wrecked the adjustment to some extent. It was replaced under warrantee. The burrs survived.

The burrs also run in to some extent which will change the grind settings that's needed bit.

I rate the razor tool for checking fill height. Some don't. I used it a lot when tuning a new bean as fill varies as the setting is changed. There is still a little scope for more grinds and less can be used but eventually the pucks go wet and even muddy. I found as the weight in is increased slowly, faction of a gram at a time the puck would stick. A small increase stopped that. More than that and extraction starts reducing noticeably. I'd usually finish up with an extraction time of over 30sec and ratios higher than 2 but that suited the beans I was using.


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## Strugglinauthor (Feb 14, 2021)

ajohn said:


> The volumetrics tend to drift more as the brew pressure goes up. The reason is pretty simple. It measures what is going through the puck and out of the over pressure valve. Providing the latter is not excessive it works rather well. Change the flow through the puck in some way and the balance changes as well so coffee output will change.
> 
> I used the earlier BE and also the timer knob on it. I found I needed to keep a eye on the weight that came out and make exceedingly small changes to the knob on it. The digital display should be a lot easier to use. I suspect this is why you have had a change. The weight would hold pretty well but eventually show signs of drifting - sometimes as the beans age and also sometimes rather noticeable when the grinder was cleaned. If completely cleaned removing the inner burr and that will change the weight that comes out for a while. I mostly left that area alone. Once when I did clean it completely the inner burr worked loose. I suspect that wrecked the adjustment to some extent. It was replaced under warrantee. The burrs survived.
> 
> ...


 Thanks, that's very helpful and explains a lot. One thing I haven't been doing, which you touched one, is weighing the coffee. Tomorrow I will grind into a jug instead of directly into the portafilter so that I know I have the correct weight. I tend to trust the machine but it appears it's a guide rather than an exact science. I've also been a bit geeky and watched some online videos on coffee preparation and it was mentioned (kinda obvious really) that when you change the grind settings a certain amount of the old grind will come through first. I'll bear that in mind...


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Strugglinauthor said:


> Thanks, that's very helpful and explains a lot. One thing I haven't been doing, which you touched one, is weighing the coffee. Tomorrow I will grind into a jug instead of directly into the portafilter so that I know I have the correct weight. I tend to trust the machine but it appears it's a guide rather than an exact science. I've also been a bit geeky and watched some online videos on coffee preparation and it was mentioned (kinda obvious really) that when you change the grind settings a certain amount of the old grind will come through first. I'll bear that in mind...


 I would use fresh beans at a minimum 5 days after they are roasted, ideally 7-10 days after. The roast date should be on the bag. You can't consistently use the timer function on the grinder although it will help to get you in the right ballpark.

It is worthwhile weighing the coffee you are dosing into the portafilter. I owned the Barista Pro - I would weigh the portafilter, tare the scales and grind into portafilter until you get the desired dose (tapping the portafilter on a mat helps to distribute and level the grinds). Fill up the hopper with beans, as the weight of the beans pushing down helps to achieve a more consistent grind.

For the barista pro I typically used 19.5g, although this can vary based on beans and roast level. As you said when changing grind size you have to purge a fair amount of coffee after an adjustment to ensure all grinds which end up in the portafilter are consistent.

Most on here would also weigh the output of coffee in the cup for the sake of consistency i.e. put scales on your drip tray and cup on top. Manually brew and stop once you get desired output such as 38g for a 2:1 ratio. You can adjust the ratio to your taste preference. Rinse and repeat for each coffee adjusting the grind size finer as the coffee ages.


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## Strugglinauthor (Feb 14, 2021)

HVL87 said:


> I would use fresh beans at a minimum 5 days after they are roasted, ideally 7-10 days after. The roast date should be on the bag. You can't consistently use the timer function on the grinder although it will help to get you in the right ballpark.
> 
> It is worthwhile weighing the coffee you are dosing into the portafilter. I owned the Barista Pro - I would weigh the portafilter, tare the scales and grind into portafilter until you get the desired dose (tapping the portafilter on a mat helps to distribute and level the grinds). Fill up the hopper with beans, as the weight of the beans pushing down helps to achieve a more consistent grind.
> 
> ...


 Again, very helpful. Thanks. I'll try all these things and see how I get on. I quite enjoy the coffee making process, which is one reason why I didn't go down the Nespresso route, but I did like the lowish involvement of the Pro. Seems as though I'm going to be drawn into the whole barista thing, though...😉


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Strugglinauthor said:


> Again, very helpful. Thanks. I'll try all these things and see how I get on. I quite enjoy the coffee making process, which is one reason why I didn't go down the Nespresso route, but I did like the lowish involvement of the Pro. Seems as though I'm going to be drawn into the whole barista thing, though...😉


 Although it seems like a bit of a faff initially, it will become second nature eventually and part of your routine/workflow.

It's still worthwhile reading the below to get the best out of your machine:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51039-sage-beprodtp-etc-read-this-first/?do=embed


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The grinders can weigh beans in rather well. Some beans may cause it to clog used like this but a number I tried didn't. Just use the weight you want after the grinder has been run empty - speeds up when all has been ground. Tare the portafilter, grind the beans into it and check the weight that comes out. For a while you may need to add 1 or 2 beans more. Some chips build up on top of the burrs under the hopper. Once those have settled it can hold pretty tight tolerances. If your using daily there is no need to worry about the chips going stale. That's what I found anyway. Some will probably mention popcorning but it doesn't seem to have such a dramatic effect on conical burrs.

Whisking the grinds - it can be detrimental and create more hard clumps than the ones that come out of the grinder. Static clumps don't really matter. They break up at the slightest touch - even tapping the portafilter may break them up.

Best to grind straight into the portafilter really. Grinds are rather fragile in an odd sort of way - anything you do to them can alter the shot that comes out, particularly the ratio so things need to be kept very consistent.

It's a clever design of grinder in some areas. Grinds collect and compact in 2 main areas. Around the rim of the grind chamber at the bottom and under the star shaped metal sweeper. Then some on the bases of the grind chamber. If they didn't do this the grinds would wear the plastic away rather quickly. It gets pretty tightly packed and stays there. There is a bit of interchange each time beans are ground. I used the single a lot and if I used a new bean and didn't clean these grinds away the carry over wasn't that noticeable. On the 2nd one no effect at all that I could notice. As they take time to compact my feeling is it's better to use it that way than clean it out. LOL Up to the user though.

Weigh the shot out? Actually if all is ok with the volumetrics it holds shot sizes pretty well but too much variation in prep will spoil that by varying amounts depending how much it changes.


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## Strugglinauthor (Feb 14, 2021)

Thank you for the further responses and I did re-read the posting about Sage machines. This morning I returned the grind setting back down to 15 but as per my previous posting I suspect much of the resulting coffee was from the 21 setting yesterday, being residual coffee in the grinder.

I reduced the grind timer to 12.5 seconds from its usual 13.0 and weighed the results, which was 22 grams. More than I expected. I'm not sure whether my kitchen scales are accurate enough for this job and so I've just placed an order for some more sensitive (0.1g) coffee scales, to much eye-rolling from the wife 🙂. One question at this point: is there an ideal weight for this basket? I read it was 18g and so this is what I placed into the portafilter. However, while perusing the web I saw another coffee website saying to aim between 19-22g with the Sage.

Extraction, including pre-infusion took 24 seconds and the results were OK, although lacking in crema. I weighed the resulting shot, which came in at 45g.

My feeling is that maybe I have been inadvertently over-dosing and so I will aim for 18-19g with the slightly finer grind.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Strugglinauthor said:


> Thank you for the further responses and I did re-read the posting about Sage machines. This morning I returned the grind setting back down to 15 but as per my previous posting I suspect much of the resulting coffee was from the 21 setting yesterday, being residual coffee in the grinder.
> 
> I reduced the grind timer to 12.5 seconds from its usual 13.0 and weighed the results, which was 22 grams. More than I expected. I'm not sure whether my kitchen scales are accurate enough for this job and so I've just placed an order for some more sensitive (0.1g) coffee scales, to much eye-rolling from the wife 🙂. One question at this point: is there an ideal weight for this basket? I read it was 18g and so this is what I placed into the portafilter. However, while perusing the web I saw another coffee website saying to aim between 19-22g with the Sage.
> 
> ...


 Do you know when your coffee beans were roasted - is there a roast date on the packaging?

22 grams is too much for the basket. For thermocoil sage machine (duo temp pro and barista express) a lower dose it often recommended, 17-18g for example. For thermojet sage machines (barista pro and bambino) I would dose 19-20g; you can get away with slightly less (18g), although may have to grind finer. I would try 19g to start with and adjust your grind size until you get the desired output (say 38g) in around 30 secs. Then you can play around with output weight and time based on taste preference.


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## Strugglinauthor (Feb 14, 2021)

HVL87 said:


> Do you know when your coffee beans were roasted - is there a roast date on the packaging?
> 
> 22 grams is too much for the basket. For thermocoil sage machine (duo temp pro and barista express) a lower dose it often recommended, 17-18g for example. For thermojet sage machines (barista pro and bambino) I would dose 19-20g; you can get away with slightly less (18g), although may have to grind finer. I would try 19g to start with and adjust your grind size until you get the desired output (say 38g) in around 30 secs. Then you can play around with output weight and time based on taste preference.


 Hi HVL87. The beans were roasted on the 8th Feb, 2021. I did note another respondent saying that beans should be left a minimum of 5 days and ideally 7-10 days, presumably as they retain more moisture in the early days and so would need coarser grinding. If this is correct then it may partially explain the problem I've been experiencing as I began using them as soon as they arrived in the post when just 2 days old. I say this only partially answers it as I've been doing just that since the day the machine arrived; I order 500g at a time and judge it so that my next batch arrives when I'm down to the last inch or so in the hopper.

This morning I used 19g on a 14 grind setting. Extraction took 24 seconds, including pre infusion, and it was OK but lacked crema and a little taste. For subsequent shots I will try the same weight and make the grind finer in stages with the aim of increasing the extraction time a little. As you've confirmed that 22g is too much then it would seem my hunch about over-dosing being the issue could be correct. Incidentally, this morning I reduced the grind time yet again to 11.5 seconds and yet the machine produced 23g. My new sensitive scales have arrived and so for the next shot I'll grind manually until I have 19-20g.

Fingers crossed...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Sage state capacities for the baskets. 8-10g for the single and 15 to 18g for the double. These have to be approx as some beans are less dense than others. Sorting out the max dose isn't easy as some over filling has little effect but as it's increased the extractions drops off. Minimum is much easier. Go to low = wet pucks, maybe muddy. For instance I couldn't use less than 7g with one bean in the single. Once muddy output shifts around more. The least I could usefully use in the double was 17g. As the weight goes down the grind needs setting finer to maintain the ratio but adding weight can also be used to tune a ratio but usually has a lesser effect. When the grind is made finer the fill height in the basket goes down. There isn't an easy way to take care of all of the variations other than the razor tool and some have problems with the puck rotating when it's used. I suspect that is due to trying to remove too much coffee with it. It also wastes grinds. Timed grinder output isn't super precise and it's not easy to set the correct time. That will change as the grinder setting is changed. Another way of handling that is to spoon grinds out but be careful about altering the compression in them. As with the razor tool time can be adjusted slowly until none is removed but the output will still vary. Another way is to use 2 time setting when this can be done. One is a bulk fill but low on weight. The other one a very low top up weight. Ideally one that can be stopped manually as with practice the correct fill can be eyeballed. This is the other idea behind the razor tool. Timer set as accurately as it can be but a weight which is always a bit over.

How long to keep fresh beans? Usually 3 maybe 4 days for CO2 to escape. That's the usual reason. There can be others. If I try a new bean I use some daily until there is no improvement. One I didn't like I used like that for nearly a month. The beans developed a bad smell so threw them away.


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## Strugglinauthor (Feb 14, 2021)

ajohn said:


> Sage state capacities for the baskets. 8-10g for the single and 15 to 18g for the double. These have to be approx as some beans are less dense than others. Sorting out the max dose isn't easy as some over filling has little effect but as it's increased the extractions drops off. Minimum is much easier. Go to low = wet pucks, maybe muddy. For instance I couldn't use less than 7g with one bean in the single. Once muddy output shifts around more. The least I could usefully use in the double was 17g. As the weight goes down the grind needs setting finer to maintain the ratio but adding weight can also be used to tune a ratio but usually has a lesser effect. When the grind is made finer the fill height in the basket goes down. There isn't an easy way to take care of all of the variations other than the razor tool and some have problems with the puck rotating when it's used. I suspect that is due to trying to remove too much coffee with it. It also wastes grinds. Timed grinder output isn't super precise and it's not easy to set the correct time. That will change as the grinder setting is changed. Another way of handling that is to spoon grinds out but be careful about altering the compression in them. As with the razor tool time can be adjusted slowly until none is removed but the output will still vary. Another way is to use 2 time setting when this can be done. One is a bulk fill but low on weight. The other one a very low top up weight. Ideally one that can be stopped manually as with practice the correct fill can be eyeballed. This is the other idea behind the razor tool. Timer set as accurately as it can be but a weight which is always a bit over.
> 
> How long to keep fresh beans? Usually 3 maybe 4 days for CO2 to escape. That's the usual reason. There can be others. If I try a new bean I use some daily until there is no improvement. One I didn't like I used like that for nearly a month. The beans developed a bad smell so threw them away.


 Thanks. That's quite a low weight, so I'm surprised. I think I'll stick with my plan for now - changing the grind, and try other parameters should I not quite get there. Oh, for the halcyon days when I just pressed the button and it delivered me a sweet coffee...🙂

Rookie question: if the aim is to allow CO2 to escape does this mean that when the sealed bag arrives I should ideally open it and leave in that state for a few days before using or is it enough merely to wait?


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Strugglinauthor said:


> HVL87. The beans were roasted on the 8th Feb, 2021. I did note another respondent saying that beans should be left a minimum of 5 days and ideally 7-10 days, presumably as they retain more moisture in the early days and so would need coarser grinding


 During the roasting process C02 is trapped in the coffee beans. You are essentially allowing the beans to degass (release C02) by resting them in the first few days after roasting. If you use them immediately you will get inconsistent extractions and a different flavour in the cup, possibly more sour or acidic.

Although you can't compare grinder settings across sage machines, 14 does seem quite high compared to any Sage Barista Pro machine I've used. Maybe reduce the grind size to 12 or 13, and after purging some coffee to allow for the change in grind size, use a dose of 19g as you mentioned and aim for an output of 38g. Then let taste be your guide.


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## Strugglinauthor (Feb 14, 2021)

HVL87 said:


> During the roasting process C02 is trapped in the coffee beans. You are essentially allowing the beans to degass (release C02) by resting them in the first few days after roasting. If you use them immediately you will get inconsistent extractions and a different flavour in the cup, possibly more sour or acidic.
> 
> Although you can't compare grinder settings across sage machines, 14 does seem quite high compared to any Sage Barista Pro machine I've used. Maybe reduce the grind size to 12 or 13, and after purging some coffee to allow for the change in grind size, use a dose of 19g as you mentioned and aim for an output of 38g. Then let taste be your guide.


 Sounds sensible. Thanks 👍


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The bags the beans come in are usually vented. Some bean cans have one way vents as well. Some people say some beans are only any good after a couple of weeks. None I have tried need anything like that.

You can't really compare any grinder setting with another of the same make. In Sage's case when it's done by hand the burrs are screwed together until they just touch and maybe wound back an extremely small amount. Then what ever mechanism is used to adjust it set at it's minimum is aligned with that. The movement on the screw thread over the adjustment range is rather small.

It can be worth checking the zero in case the burrs get too close. Empty the grinder and run it until nothing comes out. Start well away from the finest setting and while running the grinder adjust it finer slowly. The finest setting may slow the grinder down *a little* but just one setting coarser should restore the speed. If this happens at a coarser setting remember not to go that fine. This is how the outer burr should be adjusted if needed and it's best to brush the burrs clean first. This doesn't doesn't change the distance the burrs move at each setting. It just changes the numbers for the same grind size.


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