# Steaming.



## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

I'm having a lot of trouble frothing on my classic.

I open the wand enough to agitate the milk a lot, so I can get the tsk tsk tsk tsk sound, and I do indeed get bubbles into the milk, mostly big ones which I can break down.

After I get the milk to about 100F, I submerge the wand and just get light agitation, even the occasional tsk.

The milk wont whirlpool at all.

When the milk is upto temp, in the cup I get a less than 1mm thick layer of foam over a cup which tastes really bad.

Most of the bubbles are big too.

I don't get it at all, up until recently I was able to get a rather bulky microfoam capable of producing a rudimentary latte shape.....

Not great for a latte, admittedly, but great for creating a chocolate Cap.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

What angle are you using?

Can you post a video for critique and to help assist?

Where are you based?


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Have you changed your milk recently? I find some milks much harder to get right. Tesco full cream over here in Northern Ireland seems to fill with bigger bubbles when stretching it but I can keep sainsburys stuff much smoother. I also switched to full cream initially which I found a big slower to stretch and easier to control than the semi skimmed.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Glenn said:


> What angle are you using?
> 
> Can you post a video for critique and to help assist?
> 
> Where are you based?


I'm in Manchester.

I'll post a video later, after I buy some more milk....

I'm not really sure about an angle, maybe about 45o. Imagine that I'm standing in-front of the machine, and the steam wand is facing me, at 6 o'clock.

I hold the pitcher in my left hand, with the spout at 1 o'clock and the wand tip at about 45o to the pitcher wall, facing into about where the spout is towards the pitcher wall.

It's worth noting that it is the Silvia wand on the Classic.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Neill said:


> Have you changed your milk recently? I find some milks much harder to get right. Tesco full cream over here in Northern Ireland seems to fill with bigger bubbles when stretching it but I can keep sainsburys stuff much smoother. I also switched to full cream initially which I found a big slower to stretch and easier to control than the semi skimmed.


Mostly I use Lidl whole milk, but sometimes Asda Cravendale.

I don't see much difference between the two, maybe Cravendale makes a slightly sweeter cup though.

But I already thought of that and have tried them both, I can't get either of them to froth up at all.


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

Neill said:


> Tesco full cream over here in Northern Ireland seems to fill with bigger bubbles when stretching it but I can keep sainsburys stuff much smoother.


I'm finding Sainsburys semi-skimmed has gone completely downhill recently, almost to Tesco standard. I'm now sticking to M&S or Waitrose.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

I cant see a lot of differences between different supermarkets milk. Only thing i find is whole milk quick to steam and skimmed needs alot more stretching. I use semi skimmed now from any supermarket.


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## GS11 (Feb 20, 2013)

I'm getting good results with the classic on supermarket milk/ no issues whirlpooling.

*My method with the classic and silvia wand...*







*
*



*Keep jug level and sink wand central untill 100degrees F*


*Tilt jug and bring wand to surface about 1-2cm from edge of jug*


*To achieve the correct level of the tip to the surface you want to be hearing a tearing sound (not bubbling or spitting!)*


*Now the important bit.....as you achieve microfoam you need to be slowly lowering the jug to keep the tip at the ever increasing level untill you reach temperature.*






*
*If it's not an issue with technique, could be an issue with the machine?


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

GS11 said:


> I'm getting good results with the classic on supermarket milk/ no issues whirlpooling.
> 
> *My method with the classic and silvia wand...*
> 
> ...


I want to PID the machine so I can eliminate that variable, admittedly, the steam does taper off and back on again, but I would think that I'm not exactly helping either.

You heat the milk to 100F before creating any foam?

Surely, you are supposed to create the foam while heating to 100F, then from there you whirlpool the bubbles to create texture...


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## soundklinik (May 31, 2013)

Is your milk "fridge" cold? Steam comes out with good pressure?

When I worked in a coffee shop, (20+ cappuccinos a day), the milk had to be very cold, steam has to be under pressure and I would release (water from steam wand), and once steam started coming out strong, into the milk, partly submerged to drag in air, swirling in/out which helps to make foam...(Often we steamed skim milk for fatsos on a diet.)

You have to have a good amount of milk in the pitcher, too little milk and warm will never steam, it'll start to boil and get ruined.. we used the foamy part mostly, hot milk went in the sink.

Note: it was on 2-3 group commercial machines, not on a home espresso mach.

The more fat% in milk, the easier it is to steam.

But it's been awhile since I steamed...(Sorry if I am telling you stuff that you already know)

Edit: Does your Classic have enough "steam" to do a small pitcher of milk? You know the sound when there is no more steam/pressure...

You have to experiment, there is this particular sound, when you steam and it goes well, it's like the air is being drawn in, nicely swirling , not sputtering and must be finished before you run out of steam


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

With my classic I hold the jug with the wand entering at the spout and the tip half way along the side of the jug (if the wand is pointing straight towards me). I tilt the side opposite the spout down so the wand is entering the milk at a more shallow angle. I steam like this with the tearing sound until I reach 100f or until nearly doubled in volume. I then plunge the tip so it's just under the surface as if it's deeper I find steam escapes from above the screw in tip and creates large bubbles ( I haven't got round to wrapping ptfe around the threads). The milk then rolls and folds in any foam on top. I have a PID with stream control but could do the same before if I timed the steaming right. Works for me anyway.


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## GS11 (Feb 20, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> You heat the milk to 100F before creating any foam?
> 
> Surely, you are supposed to create the foam while heating to 100F, then from there you whirlpool the bubbles to create texture...


Well it's a method which seems to work ok for me. I get reasonable foam/ texture with this method, though I appreciate no where comparable to a professional set-up.

Heres my result from this morning:


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

GS11 said:


> Well it's a method which seems to work ok for me. I get reasonable foam/ texture with this method, though I appreciate no where comparable to a professional set-up.
> 
> Heres my result from this morning:


My foam looks like that, but its only about 1/2mm deep...


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## GS11 (Feb 20, 2013)

What quantity of milk are you steaming?


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

GS11 said:


> What quantity of milk are you steaming?


Usually less than half of a 12oz pitcher for a 6oz cap.

I have a 6oz pitcher though, and it's much the same story with that.

It's actually a lot harder to steam in the 6oz, so I just it for purging my wand mostly.


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## GS11 (Feb 20, 2013)

My early attempts were similar so I suspect it's just a matter of getting a knack for the correct position of the steam nozzle during the steaming cycle.

Try just opening the steam valve a couple of turns. Will take longer to steam but will give you a bit more control.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Here's mine from this morning.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

I had another go listening to some of the advice RE angle on here and the results were better.

The milk had some texture, as I even got the making of a latte art blob...


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

I took a video, but to be honest, the camera on my phone is buggered and you can't see a thing.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Decided to try a video, not a very good attempt mainly because I was distracted by trying to get it on camera. Got a few to many big bubbles at the start. Turned out ok in the end.






And here's a pic.


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## GS11 (Feb 20, 2013)

Neill said:


> Here's mine from this morning.


Wow thats very impressive...hope to one day be able to achieve similar results.



Kyle548 said:


> I had another go listening to some of the advice RE angle on here and the results were better.
> 
> The milk had some texture, as I even got the making of a latte art blob...


Encouraging..hope things continue to improve for you.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

This is one of mine with my Classic and Rancilio wand:









I've been using Asda's version of Cravendale whole milk for a while now and seem to be getting decent enough results with the milk if not the art lol.


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## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

What volume of milk are you steaming? I steam 170ml (actually 170g) of milk with the classic but I think more and you would start to run in to issues.

Are you ensuring that the light remains OFF during steaming? I find that starting to steam exactly 30 seconds after switching to steam mode will keep the light off (and therefore boiler on) throughout the stream. This made a huge difference

Here are some off my credentials:


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Dave.wilton said:


> What volume of milk are you steaming? I steam 170ml (actually 170g) of milk with the classic but I think more and you would start to run in to issues.
> 
> Are you ensuring that the light remains OFF during steaming? I find that starting to steam exactly 30 seconds after switching to steam mode will keep the light off (and therefore boiler on) throughout the stream. This made a huge difference
> 
> Here are some off my credentials:


I can't get the steam light to stay off no matter when I steam.

I even had a go of timing it and writing all the times down.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I struggle with steaming milk. However I've been using saisburys semi skimmed. Thanks for the heads up on this, I'll try M&S


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## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

Kyle548 said:


> I even had a go of timing it and writing all the times down.


Yeah been there!

Ps I use waitrose Dutchy whole


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## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

I had a go at filming this morning, it's hard to do I need more practice! Second attempt was spot on and doh! Forgot to turn video on!

Anyway here we go. You can't see the spin in the second half of steaming as well as I'd like as it's off frame. You should see a standing wave and spin. Also the art was pants bc I was tryin to pour to camera. I tried to show the temp which you will have to take my word for was spot on 60C (I seem to remember this is the right temp, I never normally measure). I find a few seconds after it's too hot to hold is the right amount.

If you think I'm talking pants please say and I will stop trying. But I think this is pretty good for a classic. Otherwise I'm off all week so will try and nail the video although I'm limited to two attempts a day.


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## GS11 (Feb 20, 2013)

Dave.wilton said:


> I had a go at filming this morning, it's hard to do I need more practice! Second attempt was spot on and doh! Forgot to turn video on!
> 
> Anyway here we go. You can't see the spin in the second half of steaming as well as I'd like as it's off frame. You should see a standing wave and spin. Also the art was pants bc I was tryin to pour to camera. I tried to show the temp which you will have to take my word for was spot on 60C (I seem to remember this is the right temp, I never normally measure). I find a few seconds after it's too hot to hold is the right amount.
> 
> If you think I'm talking pants please say and I will stop trying. But I think this is pretty good for a classic. Otherwise I'm off all week so will try and nail the video although I'm limited to two attempts a day.


good video dave. Would have been nice to see the thermometer in the shot during the process. You are getting great results in the cup with the classic and I hope to one day be attaining similar.

Nice blue cup and saucer... Where did you obtain?


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Dave.wilton said:


> I had a go at filming this morning, it's hard to do I need more practice! Second attempt was spot on and doh! Forgot to turn video on!
> 
> Anyway here we go. You can't see the spin in the second half of steaming as well as I'd like as it's off frame. You should see a standing wave and spin. Also the art was pants bc I was tryin to pour to camera. I tried to show the temp which you will have to take my word for was spot on 60C (I seem to remember this is the right temp, I never normally measure). I find a few seconds after it's too hot to hold is the right amount.
> 
> If you think I'm talking pants please say and I will stop trying. But I think this is pretty good for a classic. Otherwise I'm off all week so will try and nail the video although I'm limited to two attempts a day.


Nice technique and the video is much better than mine. Might give this a try.


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## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

GS11 said:


> good video dave. Would have been nice to see the thermometer in the shot during the process. You are getting great results in the cup with the classic and I hope to one day be attaining similar.
> 
> Nice blue cup and saucer... Where did you obtain?


I can try with the thermometer but it would be quite hard. I really don't think it is necessary, I learnt with out. The move to the edge is at the point where the jug feels warm. I take my hand off when it's too hot and then give it a few more seconds, I can check how long that is.

Cups are blue inker from coffee hit. It's an 8oz cup


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## nordberg (Jul 23, 2013)

Great thread....If I learn nothing else, I've learned I need to by a Silvia wand ASAP.....


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Dave.wilton said:


> I can try with the thermometer but it would be quite hard. I really don't think it is necessary, I learnt with out. The move to the edge is at the point where the jug feels warm. I take my hand off when it's too hot and then give it a few more seconds, I can check how long that is.
> 
> Cups are blue inker from coffee hit. It's an 8oz cup


The inker cups are great.

Whenever I do it by hand, the temp only reaches about 120F before I'm in quite a lot if pain.

My temp fresh hold is really low.

I can't drink anything more than about 30C...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

One word temp tag . That's two words


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> One word temp tag . That's two words


How good are they?

Cheap source?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> One word temp tag . That's two words


I get mine from Glenn on here , if you want a compromise between hand and thermometer they work . Turn colour very quickly


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> I get mine from Glenn on here , if you want a compromise between hand and thermometer they work . Turn colour very quickly


I do find that I have to wrestle with the thermometer a lot...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> I do find that I have to wrestle with the thermometer a lot...


Give them a try in a small jug with one lot of milk the thermometer is a massive pain


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Give them a try in a small jug with one lot of milk the thermometer is a massive pain


How long do they live?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> How long do they live?


I think recommended 6 months


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

I have another steam issue that has been bothering me.

In steam mode, I get steam out of the group head....

Like the solenoid isn't stopping it or something....

I really hope my solenoid isn't broken....


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Oh doggy, it wasn't this bad before.

It's like an 80s rock revival from my group head now.

There is a constant smoke being emitted.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Smoke, that doesn't sound good


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

How the hell do I fix this?


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Leave the coffee in your portafilter while steaming







.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Maybe it would be worth stripping the solenoid out and cleaning it. Haven't done it myself but if didn't sound too difficult when mentioned on a few other threads.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Does seem to have started since I started back flushing.....


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

I think I get a little bit of steam but I usually have the portafilter locked in so don't see it.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

I never used to get any at all....


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm sure I get the occasional puff of steam.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Does it look like a disco like mine though?


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Possible flake/speck of scale in solenoid valve as the ports /holes are tiny.Remove the S/valve screw it to a piece of wood OR hold it carefully in vice and undo the large nut (quite tight) .3/4"?/ 19 mm

Take care not to lose any parts ,check parts seats "o" rings and springs. Blow through valve and site through to make sure it is clear.Re assemble and refit taking care not to displace the "o" rings between valve and boiler


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

That's a job for tomorrow.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Just checked mine. No steam from the group head tonight. Small puff when I closed the valve after steaming but it stopped again.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> Does it look like a disco like mine though?


Sorry to say not like that. Just a bit when you flip the steam switch off.

Just tried with some M&S milk loads better. Still need practice.


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## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

Another attempt at the video. It's really hard to pour art so close to the machine in such a small space. I can't do this with my thermometer, you wouldn't be able to see it. You can at least see the standing wave after I move the camera


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## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

Another one with everything on camera this time and in HD 1024.






The result:


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

I just tried out my pid, the steam works really well set to 150.

I got a sort of microform.....

No thick art though


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Getting better.


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Your pictures of lovely looking coffee is doing my head in! I'm without a machine until Saturday









I can't look anymore! I'm off to sulk :banghead:


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## GS11 (Feb 20, 2013)

Dave.wilton said:


> Another one with everything on camera this time and in HD 1024.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent stuff. Your video is very helpful:good:

Out of interest what drink would this be called i.e. cappuccino/ flat white / latte etc


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## GS11 (Feb 20, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> View attachment 3751
> 
> 
> Getting better.


Kyle great too see that things have improved somewhat since the weekend:good:


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## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

GS11 said:


> Excellent stuff. Your video is very helpful:good:
> 
> Out of interest what drink would this be called i.e. cappuccino/ flat white / latte etc


I'd say its a latte, it's 8oz. I do flat white in a 6oz cup. Going to try and do a video of steaming a flat white soon.


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## Walter Sobchak (Nov 29, 2012)

Dave.wilton said:


> I'd say its a latte, it's 8oz. I do flat white in a 6oz cup. Going to try and do a video of steaming a flat white soon.


Would that 6oz flat white be with a double shot? I like my coffee pretty strong but I find a double shot in a 6oz cup too strong for me.


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## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

Walter Sobchak said:


> Would that 6oz flat white be with a double shot? I like my coffee pretty strong but I find a double shot in a 6oz cup too strong for me.


That's what I do but I like to taste the coffee. TBH the more I get in to this the more I crave black coffee/less milk. Loving my Americanos and filter coffee at the moment.


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