# Expensive coffee



## 4085

We all know, that we spend a small fortune in the pursuit of our favourite hobby! Do people avoid certain roasters or beans though on ground of cost? I know certain beans come with a big reputation which is often based on availability rather than actual taste. I recently bought a small amount of HAwain Kona coffee and tbh, Nescafe had more taste!

I usually pay around the £17 per kilo mark plus p & p. I would certainly pay more than that if I needed to. Gary D recently stated that he was surprised roasters could roast DECENT coffee for under £5 a bag.

What do others think?


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## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


> We all know, that we spend a small fortune in the pursuit of our favourite hobby! Do people avoid certain roasters or beans though on ground of cost?


Definitely not.


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## The Systemic Kid

David - been meaning to congratulate your on your avatar selfie - the likeness is uncanny


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## 4085

The Systemic Kid said:


> David - been meaning to congratulate your on your avatar selfie - the likeness is uncanny


I have seen you in shorts matey....


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## MWJB

Supermarket beans can be £4.00-6.50 for 250g, so I think that roasters who can offer products with better traceability, roast dates & delivery within 48hours of roasting are good value in that price range.

£10-15 a 250/350g bag is an occasional treat for me. Would go higher for very occasional special treat.


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## Glenn

In Europe the beans are often double the cost of the UK equivalent for similar quality (and even from the same farm)

I regularly pay more per kilo than that. £30/kg is not uncommon


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## 4085

But are you getting something extra from it Glenn? The same bean roasted by a Continental roaster should be no better?


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## urbanbumpkin

I think I'd struggle paying more than £25 a kilo. That's the threshold in my head. Although I would go up to £8-£9 for a 250g bag for some reason.


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## Dallah

I am a little worried about wasting money on really good beans with bad technique. I once burned through a 250g bag and only got perhaps 5 shots that were drinkable as espresso. I'm a little daunted about trying a light roast of something very high quality as espresso. Takk here in Manchester knocks out some really impressive Scandinavian style light roasted espresso which I would love to be able to make at home.


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## Mr O

I don't mind an ocassional treat. I have paid *£15 for 250g but this is a once or twice a year thing for me.

Generally i'm looking at beans around the £20 (max) a kilo or £6 (max) 250g...

* will be used for brewed not espresso


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## Spazbarista

The only time I pay good money for beans is if I'm going to make it though some sort of pour over method.

No point sticking really expensive beans through an espresso machine, it murders them as far as my taste buds are concerned.


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## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> But are you getting something extra from it Glenn? The same bean roasted by a Continental roaster should be no better?


What you want a kinder egg ?


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## robashton

I am spending a fortune on beans and my biggest fear is wasting them through mistakes.

so I buy double the amount.

i think it's easily justifiable - I used to spend £15 a day at coffee shops. It's hard to reach that through bean purchases


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## 4085

Mrboots2u said:


> What you want a kinder egg ?


Evening nemesis. A Kinder egg would be nice, but so would an explanation of what extra Glenn is getting paying twice as much for beans in Europe that he can get here


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## Jon

I struggle to justify much over £25/kg

My skills are the limitation.


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## The Systemic Kid

Wouldn't put expensive beans through an espresso machine unless I knew it would be dialled in from the first shot. Watching expensive sink shots going down the drain would be a real downer. For pour over - definitely - you get more bangs per buck.


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## YerbaMate170

I've gotten into a bad habit of wasting beans, which factors the cost negatively... I only make brewed coffee at the moment and however I've tried storing beans, I just find they lose their edge after a week or so, so quite often I'll buy another bag and throw away the last 40-50g. Oops.


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## CamV6

i daren't comment on this one........


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## Rhys

I've got a habit of drinking shots that are not quite there, at least I can appreciate a better one after an alteration.


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## 4085

Just lower your standards and save a fortune! I rarely ever have to sink anything.....perhaps I am lucky!


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## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> Evening nemesis. A Kinder egg would be nice, but so would an explanation of what extra Glenn is getting paying twice as much for beans in Europe that he can get here


Nemesis lol...


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## Obsy

I dislike sinking any shots - I hide it in milk and it's always better than instant!	-


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## Mrboots2u

My father in law just told me he can get 250g beans from lidl for £2...anyone want the link

Dfk?


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## froggystyle

dfk41 said:


> Just lower your standards and save a fortune! I rarely ever have to sink anything.....perhaps I am lucky!


Old taste buds?


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## 4085

I am going to Lidl. I don't mind trying some!


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## 4085

froggystyle said:


> Old taste buds?


Au contraire! I put some milk in. I drink mainly the same style of bean so know what to expect


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## froggystyle

dfk41 said:


> Au contraire! I put some milk in. I drink mainly the same style of bean so know what to expect


Hows the view in that comfort zone?


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## urbanbumpkin

dfk41 said:


> I am going to Lidl. I don't mind trying some!


Fantastic! It's the "Lidl bag challenge".

Winning recipe to get the best out of Lidl beans and crack the code of their roast date.


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## 4085

Over the years I have wasted my fair share by dotting all over the place with different beans and roasters. Cannot see the point now! I buy those I expect to like


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## 4085

Going to Aldi first. Will see what they have as well


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## jeebsy

Has Bean do so many tasty beans for 5-6 quid that's become my benchmark amount.

If i've drank something tasty in a shop i'll generally pick a bag up if it's around 7-8

Square Mile prices are into treat zone. Doubt I could spend 13-15 on a bag of the special stuff that comes up every so often, but it's nice to get it through IMM


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## ChilledMatt

I don't think Aldi sell beans.


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## garydyke1

Get some aldi baked beans in the mythos one. It'll warm them through for you


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## 4085

I pay £8.50 per 500 grams for most of my coffee compass stuff. I would willingly pay more and I use that as a benchmark.


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## Mrboots2u

ChilledMatt said:


> I don't think Aldi sell beans.


Coffee or baked ...

https://www.aldi.co.uk/en/product-range/exclusive-to-aldi/specially-selected/specially-selected-product-range/specially-selected-product-range/ps/p/specially-selected-single-origin-roast-and-ground/


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## Thecatlinux

I am finding buying beans in 1kg sizes a far better deal normally the price is slightly less and it gives you a chance to dial in, nothing worse than getting half way through a 250g bag without reward .

love the idea of HB subscription but need to get to grips with single dosing and or pour over as I'm afraid I may waste more than I drink. Will defiantly be on my Christmas list .


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## Glenn

dfk41 said:


> But are you getting something extra from it Glenn? The same bean roasted by a Continental roaster should be no better?


Yes, I believe I do get something extra from it - a new reference point for a coffee I already like.

Roasters in Europe have different styles to the UK, US, Australasia and the Middle East.

The coffee might not always be better - but it's different.

There are also coffee's that end up in Europe or quite often the far East that simply do not make it to the UK - and I pay a premium to experience these.


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## 4085

Like to share some of these with us?


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## NickdeBug

Rocko Mountain from the guys at foundry at £20 a kilo delivered set the bar for me.

Although I have just shelled out a small fortune for a thimble of coffee from Union.

It's only money.


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## Jon

NickdeBug said:


> It's only money.


Only wealthy people say this.


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## Mrboots2u

jonc said:


> Only wealthy people say this.


Or not tight ones .......


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## Jon

Mrboots2u said:


> Or not tight ones .......


You know me too well.


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## ChilledMatt

Mrboots2u said:


> Coffee or baked ...
> 
> https://www.aldi.co.uk/en/product-range/exclusive-to-aldi/specially-selected/specially-selected-product-range/specially-selected-product-range/ps/p/specially-selected-single-origin-roast-and-ground/


That's ground already.


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## NickdeBug

can't take it with you and certainly can't brew it


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## Phil104

I do what some others do, which is to have personal benchmark but I have occasionally spent more - with occasion being the operative part of occasional - so, I did try the Kona and I have both bought and received as a gift, beans from Drop. It's a good question to ask because I started to think about personal relative value - what any one person is prepared to pay for a particular bean, product or experience, is influenced by a range of person specific factors. Many of the comments on the thread indicate this, and I can think of other threads where it is more or less explicit. I was quite happy to pay the price of admission for the London Coffee Festival (although in the end our daughter bought me and her tickets as part of my birthday present) because I had never been before and it seemed to me that the cost wasn't that expensive for what was on offer, compared to, say going to the cinema, a gig, a premier league match. Other forum members thought the price was too much for what was on offer. So, potentially healthy provocation to think about what any one of us values and why. Thank you David.


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## Sk8-bizarre

Never bought a kilo yet. To interested in jumping about and trying stuff. Most I have ever bought of one bean is 500g and that's only three times with three different beans. Rest of the time is the standard 250 sometimes 350g bags so I suppose this helps to keep my costs up unfortunately.

I only have entry level machines but am sure I will save and up my game at some point but don't allow this to effect the bean I would buy either, I will buy an expensive one and do my best with it.

£5-10 don't really think to much just order and when you think a tenner would probably get you an hour and a half down town and 2-3 pints then that bag of 250g will give you days of enjoyment in comparison. Which is the bargain?

£10-15 is treat zone though if given the nod or recommended by anyone on here that I have started to notice has similar tastes or I respect in their experience/knowledge again I would just dive in really.

For instance I still like drinking coffee late but need to sleep so decaf comes into play. I have found one I actually like and has even got me doing espresso, split shots, full on cortado rather than just a 5oz cappa which is all I have managed with all the other decafs due to taste, the others just didn't have it going on enough to do a likeable stand alone spro.

Now though I get to chill with music to late into the evening with a choice of drink type, marvelous! £11 for a 350g bag to much much? No not as far as I'm concerned, totally bloody worth it as it's blown all the other decafs away!

Not really sure why any would hold back on here to at least try one bag of something if it has tasting notes of their liking and or has also been recommended by someone who's judgement they trust especially if they own something classed as in the high end of the grinder and machine category. I mean you could be missing out on the best bean you have ever tasted for the sake of a few quid more. I would need to know and be producing the best tasting and most delightful cups I possibly could. I do try now but as I said my machinery is entry level and I'm a bit shit.

Of course with anything this is way way personal but it is quite funny really when you look at it and there are machines on here that are practically art and mechanical wonders and they might not get to see a bean for the sake of an extra say £3-5ish.


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## robashton

Glenn said:


> Yes, I believe I do get something extra from it - a new reference point for a coffee I already like.
> 
> Roasters in Europe have different styles to the UK, US, Australasia and the Middle East.
> 
> The coffee might not always be better - but it's different.
> 
> There are also coffee's that end up in Europe or quite often the far East that simply do not make it to the UK - and I pay a premium to experience these.


I'm about to embark on this myself - I have a growing distrust of the UK coffee I'm bringing in, and need to see what is going on outside so I somehow quantify it.

some of the best coffee I've had has been from dogwood and heart, I don't think we do "well developed" coffee well in the UK (square mile aside, but they're consistently boring)


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## 4085

I asked for peoples views on this topic for a variety of reasons. I used to bed hop many years ago. I would buy 6 different beans from the same roaster and probably not enjoy any. That was in the days that I had an Expobar and a Mignon. Then I got an L1 and realised two things. Firstly, I wanted a darker bean which also meant ditching the Mignon and that was the start of my epic grinder journey, and secondly, as much as I kidded myself, I could not home roast to the standards of the professional boys, especially with the darker stuff.

I found pretty quickly, and by chance, that it seemed whatever I ordered from coffee compass I enjoyed. Partook in the dsol from inception until a couple of months ago and found the vast majority of darker attempts were garbage and showed failings with many well known coffee roasters. So, I stick with one roaster on the whole and ring them to discuss whats what on a regular basis......and all for £17 per kilo on average


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## Mrboots2u

Epic grinder journey ...is that the barista remake of Broke Back Mountain ?

does 12 mignons count as epic


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## Jumbo Ratty

Mrboots2u said:


> My father in law just told me he can get 250g beans from lidl for £2...anyone want the link ?


Yes, link please


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## Mrboots2u

Jumbo Ratty said:


> Yes, link please


Nope , youll enjoy them too much ...


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## Jumbo Ratty

you was making it up wern't you, , like the aldi beans


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## Sk8-bizarre

I actually went in Lidl when trying to get hold of beans to season my new burrs as thought if I can't manage to get to a roaster then a few bags of cheap ones will do for now......They were sold out nothing so either they are popular or possibly there was some burrs being seasoned elsewhere round Bristol that weekend........really not sure which is more likely but I got free kilos from two separate rosters in the end anyway and saved my dosh....well sort of. I bought a smaller amount if drinkable beans from them along with the free ones given. All round a win win for me due to Lidl's surprisingly popular bean being out of stock.


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## Jumbo Ratty

Research has shown me Rave italian job is cheaper per kilo than any beans sold in Lidl, unless boots wants to prove me wrong and supply the link


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## Sk8-bizarre

I think you need to be a member of Lidl club class and have a special card and everything like Bootsy for the special purchases not for sale to the general public. Kinda like the hidden Harrods cast offs they get.


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## Spazbarista

They don't let any Tom, Dick and Harry into Lidl Club Class. You need to get a referral. I got mine from the Golf club, I believe Boots got in through connection in the Masons.


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## jlarkin

robashton said:


> I'm about to embark on this myself - I have a growing distrust of the UK coffee I'm bringing in, and need to see what is going on outside so I somehow quantify it.
> 
> some of the best coffee I've had has been from dogwood and heart, I don't think we do "well developed" coffee well in the UK (square mile aside, but they're consistently boring)


Don't know if it provides any benefits in shipping etc as it might be just as much getting it round the UK but if it does I'd be interested in having a dabble outside of our shores occasionally.


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## Thecatlinux

Mrboots2u said:


> Epic grinder journey ...is that the barista remake of Broke Back Mountain ?
> 
> does 12 mignons count as epic


PMSL comedy genius


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## Spazbarista

dfk41 said:


> that was the start of my epic grinder journey, and secondly, as much as I kidded myself, I could not home roast to the standards of the professional boys, especially with the darker stuff.


When I first read this, every part of it meant something completely different.


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## urbanbumpkin

Jumbo Ratty said:


> Research has shown me Rave italian job is cheaper per kilo than any beans sold in Lidl, unless boots wants to prove me wrong and supply the link


Rave Italian Job is really good value all but it a bit 1 dimensional. Although I'd recommend it to anyone starting out.


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## glevum

Last of the big spenders me! most i paid last couple of years was Extracts cup of excellence which i recall was£27 plus delivery


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## urbanbumpkin

glevum said:


> Last of the big spenders me! most i paid last couple of years was Extracts cup of excellence which i recall was£27 plus delivery


I tried that too, really liked although I had to club up with Spence and a voucher code to justify it. Great been a thought.


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## 4085

Mrboots2u said:


> Epic grinder journey ...is that the barista remake of Broke Back Mountain ?
> 
> does 12 mignons count as epic


Have not had 12, yet. It means I was quite happy with my set up till I met a balding bearded bloke who led me astray. never seen Broke Back Mountain Boots....whats that all about then?


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## Sk8-bizarre

dfk41 said:


> I asked for peoples views on this topic for a variety of reasons. I used to bed hop many years ago. I would buy 6 different beans from the same roaster and probably not enjoy any. That was in the days that I had an Expobar and a Mignon. Then I got an L1 and realised two things. Firstly, I wanted a darker bean which also meant ditching the Mignon and that was the start of my epic grinder journey, and secondly, as much as I kidded myself, I could not home roast to the standards of the professional boys, especially with the darker stuff.
> 
> I found pretty quickly, and by chance, that it seemed whatever I ordered from coffee compass I enjoyed. Partook in the dsol from inception until a couple of months ago and found the vast majority of darker attempts were garbage and showed failings with many well known coffee roasters. So, I stick with one roaster on the whole and ring them to discuss whats what on a regular basis......and all for £17 per kilo on average


You are further down your coffee road than me and have a lot more experience in use of machines and bean. This may explain the choice of sticking with one roaster or not as you do say you found 'quite quickly' the bean type and roaster for you. This will obviously help in keeping your cost down as you are more likely to buy in bulk.

I'm not sure I will ever get to the point of using mostly just the one roaster though will probably calm down a little on the hopping around but for the moment there seems to be a huge amount of highly regarded roasters I haven't even tried yet so must or will be left feeling there may be something I have missed. If I do this will allow me possibly to buy larger quantities and get slightly cheaper though it is not a major concern to me not because I have a limitless funds but more for the reasons I stated before as the beans I feel are in the low price bracket of the 'specialty' coffee market being the consumable compared to the hardware. I may have to start buying cheaper beans on a more regular basis if I ever want to be able to save up for a better machine though because as lovely as they are and cups the can produce they are not cheap haha. I don't do credit if at all possible and don't own a credit card.

Another reason for me to continue hopping about from what I have read is (and I may be wrong here as new and learning) is that the crops are seasonal and therefore constantly changing due to many variables so when a harvest is done and gone it's gone and a roaster may have to adjust their roast to even come close again but I am part assuming, guessing here. Though I imagine this is one of the reasons you speak to your chosen favorite roaster on a regular basis Dave and would cover what they have coming in be in new, near same etc etc.

It's an interesting topic for me as I don't really think it comes down so much as to what someone can actually afford in most cases when purchasing beans really but what someone is actually willing to part with. How they weigh that up, value for money, wanting the best, not being limited, even limited to one roaster (but did value for money come into that decision...) etc etc it seems is more personal choice than affordability to large degree.


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## 4515

Any cost can be justified - ask a smoker - now thats an expensive hobby ! I started off on my coffee journey expecting to spend a couple of hundred quid on a complete setup. That was soon amended.

I'll buy coffee to see what all of the fuss is about (blue mountain and kopi luwak excepted) but have to say that high cost doenst always mean a more enjoyable coffee. In the scheme of things, the outlay on coffee is a small portion of coffee spend.

Drinking one bean is fine for a while but I get a yearning for something different after 1kg of the same bean.


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## 4085

Sk8-bizarre said:


> You are further down your coffee road than me and have a lot more experience in use of machines and bean. This may explain the choice of sticking with one roaster or not as you do say you found 'quite quickly' the bean type and roaster for you. This will obviously help in keeping your cost down as you are more likely to buy in bulk.
> 
> I'm not sure I will ever get to the point of using mostly just the one roaster though will probably calm down a little on the hopping around but for the moment there seems to be a huge amount of highly regarded roasters I haven't even tried yet so must or will be left feeling there may be something I have missed. If I do this will allow me possibly to buy larger quantities and get slightly cheaper though it is not a major concern to me not because I have a limitless funds but more for the reasons I stated before as the beans I feel are in the low price bracket of the 'specialty' coffee market being the consumable compared to the hardware. I may have to start buying cheaper beans on a more regular basis if I ever want to be able to save up for a better machine though because as lovely as they are and cups the can produce they are not cheap haha. I don't do credit if at all possible and don't own a credit card.
> 
> Another reason for me to continue hopping about from what I have read is (and I may be wrong here as new and learning) is that the crops are seasonal and therefore constantly changing due to many variables so when a harvest is done and gone it's gone and a roaster may have to adjust their roast to even come close again but I am part assuming, guessing here. Though I imagine this is one of the reasons you speak to your chosen favorite roaster on a regular basis Dave and would cover what they have coming in be in new, near same etc etc.
> 
> It's an interesting topic for me as I don't really think it comes down so much as to what someone can actually afford in most cases when purchasing beans really but what someone is actually willing to part with. How they weigh that up, value for money, wanting the best, not being limited, even limited to one roaster (but did value for money come into that decision...) etc etc it seems is more personal choice than affordability to large degree.


That is all fair and valid comment. I have been into coffee now for around 15 years, starting like all with a Gaggia Classic and a Starbucks Burr grinder. I quickly got onto a forum and discovered much to my annoyance, that the topic was vast! The retail scene was not as vast then as it perhaps is now and the same applied to roasters. I think the biggest frustration for me, has been where people have a reputation yet when you buy the goods you are left distinctly underwhelmed. Now I know the argument will come out that if you do not weigh in and out, face east and mumble something then you are not getting the best from your shot. I call that fine tuning.

Wastage is the thing I the the most. I am not mean and not tight but how many times do you read the tasting notes and think., what the hell is this guy on? I think a lot of roasters struggle with darker stuff. I have had stuff from CC that has been black and shine and you think burnt, but when you taste it, wow, nectar.

Now I am back on a flat grinder for a bit, I am going to try and notch it down a couple of roast levels. I dislike fruit and acid but hey,ho, what will be will be


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## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> Now I know the argument will come out that if you do not weigh in and out, face east and mumble something then you are not getting the best from your shot. I call that fine tuning.


Well, from this we'd assume that you don't think measurement & tasting works for you, nor superstition/magic/folklore...so what do you use?



dfk41 said:


> I dislike fruit and acid but hey,ho, what will be will be .


Does anyone really like "acid"? Maybe as a condiment on chips, but I don't think many would drink a cup of it?


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## garydyke1

MWJB said:


> Does anyone really like "acid"? Maybe as a condiment on chips, but I don't think many would drink a cup of it?


Some of the coffee we get sent ........


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## Mrboots2u

MWJB said:


> Well, from this we'd assume that you don't think measurement & tasting works for you, nor superstition/magic/folklore...so what do you use?
> 
> Does anyone really like "acid"? Maybe as a condiment on chips, but I don't think many would drink a cup of it?


 @Timothy Leary...perhaps in kool aid. But mixed at what ratio


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## jeebsy

MWJB said:


> Does anyone really like "acid"?


Turn on, tune in, drop out, man...


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## garydyke1

The screen is melting into a sea of fractals , lovely sweet beautiful fractals..........except why is that man looking at me? is he a man or a fractal? oh my god these lovely fractals looking at me . am i me? what is me? oh my god! i am a fractal. we are all fractals .......


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## jeebsy

That's what I want from my breakfast drink


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## garydyke1

This isn't funny anymore, the fractals are still looking at me :roll eyes: Can you hear them?! they are everywhere. Oh my god they are on the roof!


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## Spazbarista

The last thing dfk needs is acid


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## Spazbarista

garydyke1 said:


> This
> 
> 't funny anymore, the fractals are still looking at me :roll eyes: Can you hear them?! they are everywhere. Oh my god they are on the roof!


I can't see them, but I can hear what they smell like


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## 4085

Back on topic.......Mark, I dot believe that anyone with a reasonable skill set needs to make every single cuppa by weighing in and weighing out and facing east. I think it is a necessary evil if and when you are changing been varietal. I go for ballpark coffee, and measure it against the drink it sink it routine. I know you cannot argue with science, but I would suggest that for a lot of people the difference in the cup, where it counts can often not be discovered, unless you are one of those with an amazing palate. I use a 15 gm VST. Know where 15 gms sits in the basket, give or take. I have grinders that are normally pretty accurate on dispensing using time. If I do not enjoy what I drink, or I see an obvious flaw or fault, then I do not make adjustments.....just like most busy cafes


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## The Systemic Kid

jeebsy said:


> Turn on, tune in, drop out, man...


Those were the days.....I think?


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## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> I know you cannot argue with science, but I would suggest that for a lot of people the difference in the cup, where it counts can often not be discovered, unless you are one of those with an amazing palate.


We're not talking about science, just measurement (perhaps weighing out a quarter of cough candy makes the guy in the sweetshop a scientist now?), but the parameters for determining the difference in the cup weren't established by people with amazing palates, just by regular consumers.



dfk41 said:


> I use a 15 gm VST. Know where 15 gms sits in the basket, give or take. I have grinders that are normally pretty accurate on dispensing using time.


...so you measure some aspects volumetrically & by time. You have a routine, which you follow until poor results suggest you need to adjust it...like most folk. You keep leaving out the tasting part, it's a walk in the park to get a given weight in the PF and a given weight out, that's just a brew ratio, it doesn't mean anything without a result assessed by taste.

"Facing east" suggests some sort of superstition/divine assistance, which you don't seem to do, nor is part of measurement & assessment...so excluding 'a process' & witchcraft didn't seem to leave many alternatives, hence the question.


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## 4085

But, and it is a big but, there seems to be a school of thought that unless you carry out all these rituals in shot preparation, then you CANNOT be achieving as good a result as someone who is. Welcome to the world of fate and chance then. The FA Cup exists for the minnow to beat the Premiership team, and they often do.

Yes, I have a ritual, Ot is built on being lazy and convenience, but I am happy with the end result. Te only time I face east is if I decide to use my downstairs toilet, yet my coffee, arguably, is ok....strange old world at times....now, where are those little pieces of paper with funny drawings on


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## jeebsy

Most people are cutting down the ritual to be mininal now - weigh in, weigh out, assess taste. Less faff the better

The witchcraft seems to have been born from having to overcome deficiencies with the grinder or machine, eg WDT three times while wearing a white cloak


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## 4085

jeebsy said:


> Most people are cutting down the ritual to be mininal now - weigh in, weigh out, assess taste. Less faff the better
> 
> The witchcraft seems to have been born from having to overcome deficiencies with the grinder or machine, eg WDT three times while wearing a white cloak


Hoorraahh! Well put jeebsy......you know as a stall holder roughly where your coffee is and whether or not it is acceptable! I am in Glasgow on July 8th for a concert. If time were allowing, I would call around, if invited and sample your wares......is the Hilton on William Street far from you


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> Most people are cutting down the ritual to be mininal now - weigh in, weigh out, assess taste. Less faff the better
> 
> The witchcraft seems to have been born from having to overcome deficiencies with the grinder or machine, eg WDT three times while wearing a white cloak


Lol...have you talked to @Xpenno recently


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## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> But, and it is a big but, there seems to be a school of thought that unless you carry out all these rituals in shot preparation, then you CANNOT be achieving as good a result as someone who is. Welcome to the world of fate and chance then. The FA Cup exists for the minnow to beat the Premiership team, and they often do.
> 
> Yes, I have a ritual, Ot is built on being lazy and convenience, but I am happy with the end result. Te only time I face east is if I decide to use my downstairs toilet, yet my coffee, arguably, is ok....strange old world at times....now, where are those little pieces of paper with funny drawings on


How good a drink is to you or me is as we all know subjective ....

But The "ritual" does allow you to repeat tasty result more often than not though ...


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## 4085

Mrboots2u said:


> How good a drink is to you or me is as we all know subjective ....
> 
> But The "ritual" does allow you to repeat tasty result more often than not though ...


Are you sure? If coffee is subjective and you are on the whole making it for your own consumption.......


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## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> Are you sure? If coffee is subjective and you are on the whole making it for your own consumption.......


I do make if for my consumption , i am not a cafe


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## 4085

Mrboots2u said:


> I do make if for my consumption , i am not a cafe


If you are not a cafe, are you a number or a free man....I am not a cafe either, yet rarely feel the need for the ritual many seem to think they have to go through every shot


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## jeebsy

dfk41 said:


> Hoorraahh! Well put jeebsy......you know as a stall holder roughly where your coffee is and whether or not it is acceptable! I am in Glasgow on July 8th for a concert. If time were allowing, I would call around, if invited and sample your wares......is the Hilton on William Street far from you


Taste is what drives any changes but knowing what your input and output/ratio are help you to know what to change in the event they're needed. The stall isn't on 8 July but time allowing you're welcome to pop round for a cuppa - i'm not far from your hotel



Mrboots2u said:


> Lol...have you talked to @Xpenno recently


I saw him at the forum day...flour sifters, things that look like they're used for inseminating farm animals....


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> The stall isn't on 8 July but time allowing you're welcome to pop round for a cuppa - i


Be careful you don't become part of his epic grinder journey


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## jeebsy

I want to see DFK using the EK


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## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> If you are not a cafe, are you a number or a free man....I am not a cafe either, yet rarely feel the need for the ritual many seem to think they have to go through every shot


"Ritual" also suggests some kind of voodoo, do you recommend a process (like you use) or voodoo?

You weigh/measure/time your dose, you cut the shot presumably, or do you let the group run out? The only difference between weighing in & out & what you do is the cue by which you cut the shot...it's not any more/less stages, it's just based on weight & taste, rather than time taste, blonding & taste, volume & taste. It's no more science, or ritual, it's just a different parameter (one that you can repeat and describe to someone via an internet forum).


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## 4085

jeebsy said:


> I want to see DFK using the EK


50 Hail Marys......I will bring gloves!


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> I want to see DFK using the EK


Jeal used one at the Has Bean day , then he disappeared


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## The Systemic Kid

Mrboots2u said:


> Jeal used one at the Has Bean day , then he disappeared


Very disturbing.


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## 4085

Mrboots2u said:


> Jeal used one at the Has Bean day , then he disappeared


I am a proper man, not a pygmy with long greasy hair and nothing but stories from the past


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## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> I am a proper man, not a pygmy with long greasy hair and nothing but stories from the past


 @Spazbarista , your turn to comment on this again


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## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


> I am a proper man, not a pygmy with long greasy hair and nothing but stories from the past


Ouch! But you do wear shorts and sandals


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## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> I am a proper man, not a pygmy with long greasy hair and nothing but stories from the past


Is this lifted from your personal ad ?


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## Spazbarista

I think it's someone he met on grinder


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## twotone

Got to agree with the OP (that's you further dammed OP) I am now just buying from CC cause the beans and the roasts and the taste of the coffees are so consistently good, in fact the coffee from CC is so consistent that I wonder why they don't start selling to some of the more 'quality' supermarkets such as Wholefoods or Waitrose or such like cause the quality would surely appeal to the supermarkets and to their customers.

However I think the OP also makes a very valid point regarding the type of coffee that someone drinks and how the coffee that you make and buy suits the drinks that you like and certainly milk based coffee drinks certainly mask the overall coffee taste I think, I mean some coffee tastes amazing in milk but then that coffee isn't so great tasting as an espresso or an Americano for example.

I had a kilo bag of 1000 espressos in the cupboard that I had been given FOC when I bought my Expobar back in January and had run out of 'decent' beans last month so decided to give them another go (I've bought these beans for years @ about £8 a kilo) but had gone off them cause the blend contains some robusta but they actually tasted ok in milk based drinks and it was a welcome relief going back to something that I was well used to, the beans are not roasted on a specific date they're just generic beans roasted in industrial quantities and sold to cafes and pubs in kilo bags to make reasonable coffee in places where people don't really care about where the beans come from or how they are roasted but really the blend is not that bad, they're not anywhere near as good as CC's beans but they are half the price and they make a decent cappa IMO and I'm sure there are plenty of other beans like those 1000 espressos out there that are maybe not 'artisan' quality but are decent enough.

I'll definitely be going back to buy the odd kilo bag from time to time in order to keep the cost of my coffee habit to a reasonable level.

Tony


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## Phil104

Just a comment about rituals (not of the grinder kind) - you could substitute recipe, process or procedure for ritual and it would sound less arcane. Isn't experience a significant factor - as my coffee making experience grows and I develop some sense of competency - or fluency - I become more confident in what's happening and which bit of the process I might need to alter to improve the taste (to me). I find a procedure reassuring and that's as much about confidence as anything else. My sister is a fantastic cook and I have never seen her follow a recipe - she has an instinct for ingredients, quantities, mixing, cooking temp and time etc. I can't do that - I need to follow a recipe unless it's something I have made a lot and then can either reproduce or can use some basic competence to then improvise (e.g. risotto). I can also vary a recipe, having made it, to improve it to my taste.

As to cost, I have just persuaded a non-forum friend to go halves on kilos of beans. He was turning his nose up at say paying £10 for 500g but thinks nothing of spending £15 on a bottle of wine that he will drink across a couple of evenings.


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## Mrboots2u

twotone said:


> Got to agree with the OP (that's you further dammed OP) I am now just buying from CC cause the beans and the roasts and the taste of the coffees are so consistently good, in fact the coffee from CC is so consistent that I wonder why they don't start selling to some of the more 'quality' supermarkets such as Wholefoods or Waitrose or such like cause the quality would surely appeal to the supermarkets and to their customers.
> 
> However I think the OP also makes a very valid point regarding the type of coffee that someone drinks and how the coffee that you make and buy suits the drinks that you like and certainly milk based coffee drinks certainly mask the overall coffee taste I think, I mean some coffee tastes amazing in milk but then that coffee isn't so great tasting as an espresso or an Americano for example.
> 
> I had a kilo bag of 1000 espressos in the cupboard that I had been given FOC when I bought my Expobar back in January and had run out of 'decent' beans last month so decided to give them another go (I've bought these beans for years @ about £8 a kilo) but had gone off them cause the blend contains some robusta but they actually tasted ok in milk based drinks and it was a welcome relief going back to something that I was well used to, the beans are not roasted on a specific date they're just generic beans roasted in industrial quantities and sold to cafes and pubs in kilo bags to make reasonable coffee in places where people don't really care about where the beans come from or how they are roasted but really the blend is not that bad, they're not anywhere near as good as CC's beans but they are half the price and they make a decent cappa IMO and I'm sure there are plenty of other beans like those 1000 espressos out there that are maybe not 'artisan' quality but are decent enough.
> 
> I'll definitely be going back to buy the odd kilo bag from time to time in order to keep the cost of my coffee habit to a reasonable level.
> 
> Tony


This isn't meant to be an inflammatory response , its a genuine question , as i am intrigued by your / other's view on it ..please take it as such . I know the internet can change original intent in how questions like this can be viewed

So Using 6 month old beans , how much difference is there between that and say a chain that get criticised for stale beans, low price to drive profiit not quality and hiding it in milk ?

Yeah milk should be better temp and sweeter ... Coffee nominally dialled in with more care ..?

Is it commodity ? is it specialty ? Do people care / interested in the difference ? Or the impact it has on the farmer ? Again not attempting to criticise just ask...

Cheers Martin


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## jeebsy

Cripes


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## twotone

Mrboots2u said:


> This isn't meant to be an inflammatory response , its a genuine question , as i am intrigued by your / other's view on it ..
> 
> So Using 6 month old beans , how much difference is there between that and say a chain that get criticised for stale beans, low price to drive profiit not quality and hiding it in milk ?
> 
> Yeah milk should be better temp and sweeter ... Coffee nominally dialled in with more care ..?
> 
> Is it commodity ? is it specialty ? Do people care / interested in the difference ? Or the impact it has on the farmer ?


Hi Martin, personally I just want a decent cappa and the odd espresso and cortado, the machine and grinder have enabled me to make those easily and fairly quickly but I really don't want to be paying a fortune to make a coffee in my own house (someone on here said he was paying £15 a day in cafes for his coffee) so cost is a big factor for me as I go through, along with my son, about 100g of coffee beans a day.

Don't get me wrong I love great coffee and CC certainly provides me with great coffee at a good price with fantastic customer service thrown in for good measure, I mean I've just finished their mystery 3 beans which were fantastic in milk for £6 for 500g of beans but as someone else said in the thread espresso machines knock hell out of coffee beans so i don't really think that it's essential to buy expensive beans then put the coffee into milk.

As for the impact on the farmer then being brutally honest I really don't care in the same way that I don't really care about the people who produce the wine that I drink, don't get me wrong I obviously care about people producing decent quality products and hope that they make a good living for themselves and their families but the bottom line is really the price which for me is about £6 a bottle of wine and maybe about £4 a bag of beans (250g).


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## Mrboots2u

@twotone i would watch "a film about coffee" . It might give you a different perspective on the coffee production chain ..it might not

You hope they make a decent living , but at the prices some people are paying for some beans , they aren't


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## urbanbumpkin

dfk41 said:


> If you are not a cafe, are you a number or a free man....I am not a cafe either, yet rarely feel the need for the ritual many seem to think they have to go through every shot


Are you sure that you've both not dropped acid?......No-one is a cafe


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## twotone

Mrboots2u said:


> @twotone i would watch "a film about coffee" . It might give you a different perspective on the coffee chain ..it might not


It won't Martin, thanks for the suggestion but I'm a consumer and want to consume decent quality coffee, cheese, meat, wine & etc at reasonably good costs for me and my family.

Sorry but I can't change the world mate, I run my own one man band business so know exactly how it works, if the price isn't right then people won't buy that really is the bottom line, of course there are going to be exceptions and some people will pay more for a variety of reasons but I simply won't pay £2.50 for a cappa in a cafe.

I don't know about anyone else but both my wife and I went into an 'artisan' coffee shop in Glasgow recently and the cost for two small cappas which came with small biscuits was nearly £6 and no doubt the coffee was very good but I can't afford those sort of prices to sit in a cafe for less than half an hour when I can go into a restaurant and pay about £30 for two lunches with wine and coffee and we can sit in there for two hours.

Tony


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## urbanbumpkin

Mrboots2u said:


> Jeal used one at the Has Bean day , then he disappeared


This sounds like a veiled threat...."I wouldn't go near that hopper if I were you, you might just fall in"....(said with a 1970's cockney Sweeney voice)


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## jeebsy

twotone said:


> As for the impact on the farmer then being brutally honest I really don't care in the same way that I don't really care about the people who produce the wine that I drink, don't get me wrong I obviously care about people producing decent quality products and hope that they make a good living for themselves and their families but the bottom line is really the price which for me is about £6 a bottle of wine and maybe about £4 a bag of beans (250g).


What's a decent rate for a plumber?


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## Obsy

I think people are changing in their habits and tastes. You only have to look at the Costabucks explosion that's happened in the last 15 years to see this. No-one thought charging over £2 for a small cup would work yet Whitbred have thrived on the back of Costa. My grandparents won't pay for a cuppa out of home, my parents and I will and I'm prepared to pay more for a tasty cup. I also like knowing the farmers have been paid well for their work and am happy to pay more for my beans in order for this to be achieved.


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## Mrboots2u

twotone said:


> It won't Martin, thanks for the suggestion but I'm a consumer and want to consume decent quality coffee, cheese, meat, wine & etc at reasonably good costs for me and my family.
> 
> Sorry but I can't change the world mate, I run my own one man band business so know exactly how it works, if the price isn't right then people won't buy that really is the bottom line, of course there are going to be exceptions and some people will pay more for a variety of reasons but I simply won't pay £2.50 for a cappa in a cafe.
> 
> I don't know about anyone else but both my wife and I went into an 'artisan' coffee shop in Glasgow recently and the cost for two small cappas which came with small biscuits was nearly £6 and no doubt the coffee was very good but I can't afford those sort of prices to sit in a cafe for less than half an hour when I can go into a restaurant and pay about £30 for two lunches with wine and coffee and we can sit in there for two hours.
> 
> Tony


Fair enough , i was more suggesting that it might change your habits of the stuff you buy at home ...

I can't comment on whether the experience in a cafe is worth £6 to you or not ...

To each their own , we have a different expectation ,experience, and deride different pleasure from making coffee and being on the forum ...


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> What's a decent rate for a plumber?


Surely will Depend if they expect a decent cuppa while there at your house.....


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## Sk8-bizarre

Sure any plumber or builder will probably just want a strong brewed tea............


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## jlarkin

Mrboots2u said:


> deride different pleasure from making coffee and being on the forum ...


Don't deride pleasure - it's a great thing.


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## NickdeBug

I have always been of the belief that true altruism is an almost impossible state to achieve for the human species.

Sad to see that compassion is going the same way.


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## robashton

twotone said:


> (someone on here said he was paying £15 a day in cafes for his coffee


*waves*

===

I think that there is room on this for wiggle room - I eat at a lot of restaurants and occasionally push the boat out and spend silly money on a single meal, but most of the time I'd prefer to have something simple and spend far less.

With education (or the right marketing), I think it's possible to do both as a coffee shop. To cater for the crowd who just want a decent cuppa at a decent price (fine, get some decentish colombian and sell it for ~£2.00 a cup) and then to the people who want something special (charge double or more because that's a goddamn special bean and we haven't got much of it). Tell you what - when I'm swinging by a place just to meet a friend or read a book my focus isn't on the coffee - special stuff would be wasted on me.

We're not there yet as an industry (maybe we never will be). Prufrock in London charge more than £5 for a brew coffee because of the time and skill involved and I think that's okay (or it used to be when you could guarantee you'd get something you'd be hard pushed to reproduce at home - it's not all that these days).

Black Lyan while she was open did something similar too "this is top end product and we will charge more for it and sell less of it".

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting your cheap cuppa and your bottle of plonk, on the whole that cheap bottle of plonk is what is in my fridge or cupboard and I've got my standard £5 a bag beans for every day too (as do shops).

At the high end, coffee can taste* ridiculously brilliant* just like any other high end consumable and we should be celebrating this and be willing to pay for the experience if it is something you enjoy.

[edit] I've got a jar of nescafe on my side, as everybody keeps noticing in my photos. My plumber or cleaner might want it, and they're welcome to it. (and they're welcome to my stupid expensive stash too if they ask nicely and don't try to make it themselves!)


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## jeebsy

I've had one complaint about my espresso (£2) being too expensive. Started my usual this is nice coffee spiel and was going to offer the guy one to try for whatever he would normally pay for an espresso to see what he thought of it but he wandered off mid-rant.


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> I've had one complaint about my espresso being too expensive. Was going to offer the guy one to try for whatever he would normally pay for an espresso to see what he thought of it but he wandered off mid-rant.


Nice idea , shame it didn't work out


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## Thecatlinux

Currently

my maths £20 per kilo with my retention I would still expect a return of 40 double shots of esspresso

thats 50p a cup , now with the milk and the bottled water roughly 10p a cup

i haven't factored in the cost of machinery as the ops post was about coffee.

Its something i absoultly look forward too every single morning and it's lovely to come home to, and have every single evening . When friends and family come round it's great to perform the cermony and give them probably the best coffee they will have .

at roughly 60p a cup it's cheap .

PS perhaps I am soppy,daft or simply empathetic ,but I care where my coffee comes from , and I also care about the people and farmers who produce it .


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## jeebsy

Someone think of the poor battery chickens


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## 4085

jeebsy said:


> Someone think of the poor battery chickens


cheers jeebsy, I need to get one out of the deepfreeze!


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## Xpenno

Mrboots2u said:


> Lol...have you talked to @Xpenno recently


I live to make life difficult


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## Thecatlinux

dfk41 said:


> cheers jeebsy, I need to get one out of the deepfreeze!


isnt there a heater option on your new toy , you could defrost and mince it up all in one go.


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## 4085

Thecatlinux said:


> isnt there a heater option on your new toy , you could defrost and mince it up all in one go.


But I still need to get it out of the deep freeze!


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## johnealey

jeebsy said:


> Someone think of the poor battery chickens


Do they produce Clucky Luwak then?

Shall steer well clear if not free range...

John


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## Rhys

johnealey said:


> Do they produce Clucky Luwak then?
> 
> Shall steer well clear if not free range...
> 
> John


They produce something, well mine do anyway and it's not pleasant! Keeps the grass manured so can't be that bad


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## Neil294

Until recently I only bought coffee from cafes/market stalls in central London, so would be paying £10 for 250g of Notes or a bit less for Monmouth/Square Mile etc. It's only recently that I've discovered the likes of Foundry that are set up to send coffee through the post in parcels that go through my letterbox. The postal service round here isn't the best and I frequently come home to find stuff "hidden" behind my recycling box and I didn't want my beans sitting in the sun/rain all day. That said, the Foundry beans have worked out at just under a tenner for 250g even with the forum discount (but they are superb). I'm on some Rave Italian blend at the moment and bought 1kg for under a tenner, but I wasted the first 7 shots trying to dial in the grinder. I've never had so much trouble and it's still not quite right. I'm presuming this is down to normally opting for LSOL beans and switching across to the dark Italian rather than the quality of the beans. Or me just being rubbish...


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## Spazbarista

Probably need a coarser grind than you are used to


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## risky

So what's your views on £130/kg? http://www.roundsquareroastery.co.uk/#!product/prd5/3849552211/whisky-cask-coffee

The pricing doesn't make much sense to me:

£80/100g

£110/250g

£130/1000g

I guess they are trying to make buying a kilo look better value.


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## Mrboots2u

risky said:


> So what's your views on £130/kg? http://www.roundsquareroastery.co.uk/#!product/prd5/3849552211/whisky-cask-coffee
> 
> The pricing doesn't make much sense to me:
> 
> £80/100g
> 
> £110/250g
> 
> £130/1000g
> 
> I guess they are trying to make buying a kilo look better value.


Priced by novelty value ..? Cant see what the process would add for me and my preference in coffee


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## The Systemic Kid

risky said:


> So what's your views on £130/kg? http://www.roundsquareroastery.co.uk/#!product/prd5/3849552211/whisky-cask-coffee


Not a lot. Much cheaper to pull a shot with your regular beans and sip your malt whisky while drinking it. Lagavulin will give you smokiness is buckets.


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## Thecatlinux

risky said:


> So what's your views on £130/kg? http://www.roundsquareroastery.co.uk/#!product/prd5/3849552211/whisky-cask-coffee
> 
> The pricing doesn't make much sense to me:
> 
> £80/100g
> 
> £110/250g
> 
> £130/1000g
> 
> I guess they are trying to make buying a kilo look better value.


cheaper to have a weekend break and cross one of those top coffee shops off my list


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## garydyke1

Intrigued by their single estate brazil with a mystery unnamed estate


----------



## robashton

I think I'll stick to plain ol' coffee for now.


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## jeebsy

garydyke1 said:


> Intrigued by their single estate brazil with a mystery unnamed estate


Finca


----------



## foundrycoffeeroasters.com

Neil294 said:


> That said, the Foundry beans have worked out at just under a tenner for 250g


I'm sure you meant 350g


----------



## garydyke1

jeebsy said:


> Finca


Fazenda surely ; )


----------



## jeebsy

Finca Fazenda?


----------



## risky

Just been in there and picked up some of the house blend. Think the whiskey stuff is mispriced on the website as it was £7 for I believe 100g in the shop.

I'm curious to try the house blend again, last time I had it I didn't think much of it but blamed my lack of ability.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

risky said:


> Think the whiskey stuff is mispriced on the website as it was £7 for I believe 100g in the shop.


Scots whisky; Irish/American whiskey


----------



## risky

The Systemic Kid said:


> Scots whisky; Irish/American whiskey


Blame autocorrelation.

(^it doesn't even know the word autocorrect)

Whisky

There. Now I've taught it.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Obviously, not the Scottish autocorrect version.


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## simontc

I think of coffee how I think a lot of people think of drinking beer in this country... I dont mean that in terms of quality as, lets face it, most people consume crap beer, but rather in terms of cost. Most people will happily have two/three pints at a pub on a Friday night without thinking (most people more). At the lowest price I can imagine of 2.50 a pint (I live in London so haven't seen a price like that in last ten years, but hey I'll be devils advocate) thats 7.50. Thats over the price of a very good 250g bag from most online retailers. 250g lasts me a week and a half or so. No one blinks an eye at someone drinking three pints on a Friday night- why does good coffee get people riled?


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## risky

simontc said:


> At the lowest price I can imagine of 2.50 a pint (I live in London so haven't seen a price like that in last ten years, but hey I'll be devils advocate)


Ouch...I don't miss living in London for things like that.


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## jeebsy

You could rarely be confident that handing over a tenner for two drinks would be enough by the time i left


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## simontc

Pint of sierra Nevada in Denmark hill cost me 5 something a few weeks ago; thats zone 2; I shudder at price of that in zone 1. Fairly standard green king ipa cost me 4 quid in a wetherspoons in more central area.

Its fine- I dont drink in pubs terribly often, nor do I drink beer too regularly (once twice a month) and when I do its not much comparatively, so paying a premium for nicer stuff doesn't bother me so much- particularly now a friend and I have been successfully brewing good stuff, making it even less of a concern if I do splash out on a beer every now and then...

And thus we're back to coffee as its pretty much the same idea when I do grab a 2-3 quid coffee whilst out... Though of course I drink coffee every day at home too


----------

