# Sticky  NON-SCALING WATER CALCULATOR



## Rob1

*It seems to me there's a new post every day with new and older members alike asking if their water will scale up their machine.*

I'm one of the few members who respond to these questions and it seems somewhere the answers (usually detailed) and links to resources are being lost.

So I've decided to make a new thread to supply a spreadsheet that can be used to calculate scaling potential of water. Technically the LI also calculates corrosion potential but there are other factors to consider that the formula can't take into account.

*Link to calculator/spreadsheet. *

You can use it with water reports and bottle labels that give alkalinity and hardness as CaCO3, or you can use it with ones that have been broken down into, Mg, Ca, HCO3, CO3 etc.

I took the formulas from Jim Schulman's Water FAQ and made a spreadsheet that you can use to enter precise values rather than rely on printed tables that might not represent the water you're using.

I'm still working on a couple of other pages to add to it but for now it will do as a scaling potential calculator.

*LINK*


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## skylark

Thanks. As a relatively new member to the forum I was blissfully unaware that this was quite a repetitive issue. I now see it as a potential snakepit when it comes to answers with a multitude of opinions being expressed. I suppose the question I should have asked is ' am I safe to use my tapwater in my machine on a daily basis' and seen what the responses would have been. All in good spirit, thanks to all who offered their opinions/advice. I have been "semi" converted. I think ...

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Rob1

skylark said:


> Thanks. As a relatively new member to the forum I was blissfully unaware that this was quite a repetitive issue. I now see it as a potential snakepit when it comes to answers with a multitude of opinions being expressed. I suppose the question I should have asked is ' am I safe to use my tapwater in my machine on a daily basis' and seen what the responses would have been. All in good spirit, thanks to all who offered their opinions/advice. I have been "semi" converted. I think ...
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 It isn't just new members. It's quite natural to not want to learn to figure this stuff out for yourself. It's a headache at first and of very limited use. Most people just want to select a bottled water or assess their tap water and move on. The spreadsheet I created will allow them to do it themselves by just copying information. The only reason I bother with this stuff is because I remineralise distilled water and tried different compositions.

If you use the spreadsheet and put the average figures from the water report into it you'll know if it'll scale or not at your operating temps but "safety" is another issue and can additionally be related to the way you use the machine. No tap or bottled water is "scale free" or "safe" if, for example, you steam milk and never flush the service boiler.

Safety is another issue. I avoid chlorides like the plague but you might also be concerned about corrosion potential if the water is low in hardness and alkalinity.

The spreadsheet will only help you determine if you'll need to descale a brew boiler or HX path. It's probably good advice to flush and descale service boilers periodically depending on use.


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## Geoff

Very useful, but is there any bottled water that is available in a UK supermarket that is not too soft to cause corrosion and not too hard to generate a scaling problem? I get the impression that there isn't


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## Rob1

Maybe. Probably not. If you really want to know you can easily find the mineral compositions online and put them into the spreadsheet.

MWJB made a thread on bottled waters with a calculator for mixing those, also a sticky.

I'm going to add a page soon on remineralising water.


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## Agentb

Geoff said:


> Very useful, but is there any bottled water that is available in a UK supermarket that is not too soft to cause corrosion and not too hard to generate a scaling problem? I get the impression that there isn't


 It's quite a subject but there are some links in this thread https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/25280-bottled-water-blends-for-brewed/page/8 which may be helpful.

Cost and availability varies from supermarket to supermarket. 👍


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## Rob1

Agentb said:


> It's quite a subject but there are some links in this thread https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/25280-bottled-water-blends-for-brewed/page/8 which may be helpful.
> 
> Cost and availability varies from supermarket to supermarket. 👍


 Just remember to check they labels are still accurate!


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## Rob1

Horribly complex remineralisation calculator added.

Allows using a simple one or two concentrate mix targeting a Hardness and Alkalinity or it allows more complex use of multiple concentrates contributing to hardness and alkalinity.


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## Geoff

Thanks. Wondering about using tap water (very hard) and diluting with deionised water collected from a de-humidifier.


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## Northern_Monkey

@Geoff - Is it a general purpose dehumidifier or one specifically made to produce food grade water?

We have a dehumidifier to help with washing drying in the winter and window condensation. After seeing the state of the dust and gunk on the cooling fins/filter, no way would I use it for drinking from without boiling and filtering...

Apologies if it is a fancy food grade one, just never heard of that before for home use.


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## Rob1

Do food grade ones even exist? If it's a standard dehumidifier no. Aside from dirt and bacteria and stuff the highly pure water may have come into contact with whatever metals and oils are in the dehumidifier.


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## Geoff

Yes good point, probably got too many metals to drink. So it's back to bottled water or simply give up and de-scale at regular intervals


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## Northern_Monkey

@Rob1 - I didn't think so either, but I don't know everything! You can always be surprised sometimes. 😉


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## Batian

Here is one that @MWJB constructed some time ago. It may need an update ?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/187vd8fjVQGCrvaoEz071BoSEOl-IY3rTl0-fZXLGx1w/edit#gid=963218475


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## MWJB

Batian said:


> Here is one that @MWJB constructed some time ago. It may need an update ?
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/187vd8fjVQGCrvaoEz071BoSEOl-IY3rTl0-fZXLGx1w/edit#gid=963218475


 Updated 23rd May 2020 (ammended the title, see tab for date).

Is there something I have missed?


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## Batian

MWJB said:


> Updated 23rd May 2020 (ammended the title, see tab for date).
> 
> Is there something I have missed?


 Only asked as my copy is on my hard drive....and that has been there for some time. I missed the update as I just searched for your post and took the link from there!

I will update my copy, thanks for the heads up.

I did suggest at the time that it was suitable for making 'a sticky', but that fell on stony ground.


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## Rob1

Just in case anybody has used or saved the remineralisation page since I updated the spreadsheet, I found an error which should now be corrected. It would have only affected the calculations if the 'target' ion were above 1 as in the example of Calcium Citrate which has 3 Ca ions.


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## terio

Hi, many thanks for taking the time to put this together. Please move if you want this posted elsewhere, I'm wondering what you guys would recommend if water has a high silica content ~40ppm and for use in espresso machine, giving how grim some shower doors look around here, I'm wanting to be careful with my new machine. The hardness here is really low 7.8 and alkalinity is 14ppm. Ignoring the silica, I think I'm going to have to remineralise according to the water calculator, just trying to get my head around it.

Here are some of the values for my water, I got the silica value from a council water report. Any help greatly appreciated.







*Joyce Road*

Calcium



1.82

Magnesium



0.77

Sodium



8.00

Potassium



2.10

Iron



0.02

Bicarbonate



17.2

Carbonate



0.00

Sulfate



1.70

Chloride



5.80

Nitrate



0.48

Nitrite



0.002

Flouride



0.04

Total Alkalinity



14.8

Total Hardness



7.70


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## Rob1

terio said:


> Hi, many thanks for taking the time to put this together. Please move if you want this posted elsewhere, I'm wondering what you guys would recommend if water has a high silica content ~40ppm and for use in espresso machine, giving how grim some shower doors look around here, I'm wanting to be careful with my new machine. The hardness here is really low 7.8 and alkalinity is 14ppm. Ignoring the silica, I think I'm going to have to remineralise according to the water calculator, just trying to get my head around it.
> 
> Here are some of the values for my water, I got the silica value from a council water report. Any help greatly appreciated.


 It's probably not a good idea to use water with high silica, though Volvic is quite high (31.7) and people don't seem to have problems using that (I didn't for two years).


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## Rob1

Spreadsheet updated on the 'Interactive Table' page to calculate the rate at which alkalinity and hardness will increase depending on an estimate of the amount of water lost to steam and boiler capacity.


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## Catlady101

Can I please ask a stupid question about water...

Question: is non scaling water also the same as the best water for flavour extraction from coffee?

The reason I ask such a stupid question, apart from the fact that I know nothing, is that I use a demineraliser filter for the water for my tea - It removes all disolved minerals.

I had been using this water initially for my coffee (via Mokka/stovetop)

I then saw a little inexpensive water filter just for coffee(peak) which stated it would filter the water not to remove all the minerals but to ensure just the right ones were in the water to make good coffee - and I am probably silly but I feel it did help me in brewing better coffee.

So - I am assuming the minerals that cause scale are the bog standard calcium carbonate and any magnesium carbonate that might be floating about in the water from the tap. Am I then correct in thinking that if you remove just the minerals that cause scaling deposits that you are also then creating water that is good for extracting / brewing coffee , it still has some minerals in it but those ones don't casue scaling?

or are the two waters different from each other.

See - I am confusing myself just typing this.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Catlady101 said:


> Can I please ask a stupid question about water...
> 
> Question: is non scaling water also the same as the best water for flavour extraction from coffee?
> 
> The reason I ask such a stupid question, apart from the fact that I know nothing, is that I use a demineraliser filter for the water for my tea - It removes all disolved minerals.
> 
> I had been using this water initially for my coffee (via Mokka/stovetop)
> 
> I then saw a little inexpensive water filter just for coffee(peak) which stated it would filter the water not to remove all the minerals but to ensure just the right ones were in the water to make good coffee - and I am probably silly but I feel it did help me in brewing better coffee.
> 
> So - I am assuming the minerals that cause scale are the bog standard calcium carbonate and any magnesium carbonate that might be floating about in the water from the tap. Am I then correct in thinking that if you remove just the minerals that cause scaling deposits that you are also then creating water that is good for extracting / brewing coffee , it still has some minerals in it but those ones don't casue scaling?
> 
> or are the two waters different from each other.
> 
> See - I am confusing myself just typing this.


 So... Unfortunately not. Coffee likes minerals. Coffee machines don't. We all have those calculators etc because if we put UK tap water - with the exception of a a few places - our coffee machines won't last very long. Yes, we can descale, but that in itself can cause a lot of issues.

So, the consensus is to have a compromise. Have water with less minerals, and only add enough minerals to the point that it won't become an issue for the coffee machine itself. Some of us (myself included) will distil the water and then re-mineralise with Sodium Bicarbonate. That will mute some acidity, as well as act as a buffer so the distilled water won't damage the boilers.

For a Moka Pot, I wouldn't bother. Tap Water through a Brita filter is more than enough.


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## Rob1

Catlady101 said:


> Can I please ask a stupid question about water...
> 
> Question: is non scaling water also the same as the best water for flavour extraction from coffee?
> 
> The reason I ask such a stupid question, apart from the fact that I know nothing, is that I use a demineraliser filter for the water for my tea - It removes all disolved minerals.
> 
> I had been using this water initially for my coffee (via Mokka/stovetop)
> 
> I then saw a little inexpensive water filter just for coffee(peak) which stated it would filter the water not to remove all the minerals but to ensure just the right ones were in the water to make good coffee - and I am probably silly but I feel it did help me in brewing better coffee.
> 
> So - I am assuming the minerals that cause scale are the bog standard calcium carbonate and any magnesium carbonate that might be floating about in the water from the tap. Am I then correct in thinking that if you remove just the minerals that cause scaling deposits that you are also then creating water that is good for extracting / brewing coffee , it still has some minerals in it but those ones don't casue scaling?
> 
> or are the two waters different from each other.
> 
> See - I am confusing myself just typing this.


 Is that a 'zero' filter jug by any chance?

If the water contains Magnesium and Calcium and no alkalinity from bicarbonates (e.g. Magnesium from Magnesium sulphate, Calcium from Calcium citrate) there won't be potential for scale to form. If the water has alkalinity from bicarbonates and hardness from either Magnesium or Calcium there will be potential for scale depending on the temperature. E.G Magnesium and Calcium could still come from the above sources with the addition of sodium bicarbonate and there would be potential for Magnesium and Calcium carbonate to precipitate. This is why it's important to measure total alkalinity (it almost always comes from bicarbonate/carbonate sources) and hardness (always Magnesium and Calcium expressed as CaCO3). The reason a lot of people get confused is because of the expression of hardness "as CaCO3" which makes people think they can have as much hardness from Magnesium as they want, people also tend to think they can have 20mg/l Magnesium content and it'll be fine because it's only 20mg/l hardness, which again isn't right as you have to express it as CaCO3...

So to answer your questions, the Peak water jug doesn't remove hardness and alkalinity but I believe it can, at least temporarily, allow you to hit a target mg/l value for the two. IOW the Peak produces water that still has minerals that contribute to scaling in certain conditions but you might reduce them to the point this doesn't happen in an espresso machine.

There's a debate about how much minerals affect flavour. I personally believe they alter mouth feel and so alter perception of flavour without actually altering extraction, but some disagree and believe different minerals extract different things. The most important thing is alkalinity as a buffer to acidity. Saying that, I saw a blind tasting a while back in which distilled water came out the unanimous winner.


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## MWJB

Some non scaling waters are horrible. Some scaling waters taste fine, especially with brighter coffee.

The less alkalinity you have the brighter your coffee will be...if you can't tame the brightness, try more alkalinity.

If your moka pot is steel, you're probably not going to suffer with corrosion, but I'd tend towards more alkalinity with an aluminium moka pot.


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## Catlady101

sorry - should have clarified - I am not concerned about my little mokka scaling, as I regularly treat it with a little simple vinegar, I am however, truley fascinated about the discussion being had in this thread about the various charts for reducing scale in coffee machines proper.

People have gone to a lot of effort to create, test and publish the tables, charts and spreadsheets kindly included in this thread.

I was trying to understand the calculations, the reasons behind it, and that is when my little brain piped up and said but does the work you put into managing the scaling, affect the taste of the coffee because you have altered the minerals, and alkalinity of the water, etc, and you have all kindly clarified things for me.

Thank-you very much @MWJB, @MediumRoastSteam, and @Rob1 for taking the time to help me understand what is happening and why.

Brilliantly insightful and useful as always👍


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## MediumRoastSteam

Catlady101 said:


> Thank-you very much


 @MWJBand @Rob1 know what they are talking about. I just read what they write, trying to understand it all and then my brain fries. 😂


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## scotty38

I inherited a Gaggia Classic a few weeks ago that reignited my interest and made me buy a Specialita. I've now decided a machine is next and think I'm going all in (as far as all in is concerned for me) and getting either a Technika V Profi or Profitec 600 but that debate can be had elsewhere, the issue is I'm petrified to use tap water now.... Would an Osmio Zero fix all my issues or would I still need to do other stuff too? I'm with Anglia water and my info is

Drinking water hardness for xxxxxxx

The water in your area is hard.



To help set your domestic appliances, the water hardness in different units is: 
 


271 mg/l (or parts per million)

:Calcium Carbonate



108.4 mg/l (or parts per million)

:Calcium



18.862 °C

egrees Clark



27.1 °F

egrees French



15.393 °dH

egrees German



2.71 mmol/l

:Millimoles


thanks in advance.....


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## MediumRoastSteam

scotty38 said:


> and getting either a Technika V Profi or Profitec 600 but that debate can be had elsewhere, the issue is I'm petrified to use tap water now.... Would an Osmio Zero fix all my issues or would I still need to do other stuff too


 Ha! I'm glad you came to your senses *before *you even got your machine. Great stuff. Kudos to you for doing your homework.

Yes, the Osmio Zero will do you wonders, either run with the re-mineralisation cartridge OR remineralise yourself. Very simple to do with only sodium bicarbonate. That's what I do: I distil my water and add 100mg (yes, 0.1g of it to every litre. The easiest way to do this is to make a concentrate say, add 5g to 1L of water. That's your concentrate. That alone has a concentration of 5g/l. That's 5000mg/l. If you then add 20ml of that solution to a litre of water (using a syringe), your water will have (approx.) 100mg/l.

I've bitten the bullet and bought a 0.01g precision scale so I can work with less amounts of concentrate. (E.g.: I make a concentrate of 50ml of water by adding 0.5g of sodium bicarbonate). I then add 10ml per litre of water. 100mg/l is not set in stone, and regulates alkalinity. You can add more or less, say, 80mg/l to suit your taste, as it will mute acitity.

question: what makes you go for the Mechanika rather than the MaraX?


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## DavecUK

scotty38 said:


> I inherited a Gaggia Classic a few weeks ago that reignited my interest and made me buy a Specialita. I've now decided a machine is next and think I'm going all in (as far as all in is concerned for me) and getting either a Technika V Profi or Profitec 600 but that debate can be had elsewhere, the issue is I'm petrified to use tap water now.... Would an Osmio Zero fix all my issues or would I still need to do other stuff too? I'm with Anglia water and my info is
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  


 It will do yes, you may have to change filters a little more often, but it will preserve your machine.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55732-osmio-zero-333-offer/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=789713&embedComment=789713&embedDo=findComment#comment-789713


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## scotty38

Thanks both and yep the offer on the Osmio had already caught my eye 😀

@MediumRoastSteam I was looking at the Technika rather than the Mechanika for the PID and the styling. For those two machines the £200 premium seems worth it. Technika versus Marax becomes a bit more tenuous, styling again, potential build quality, can be plumbed if I decide to and if I buy the ECM I don't think I'll wonder if I should have bought the Lelit. Is it worth £800 more then no, of course not, well not rationally at least. If I didn't have a 2 week old Mignon then I may have diverted funds but as I do that side can wait now. It "may" not be good enough for the ECM, I don't know, but it will be better than me plus that's possibly an easier upgrade than a machine would be.

I could say rotary versus vibe but now I'm even kidding myself. There is a bit of want rather than need tthough, I'll admit that much.....


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## MediumRoastSteam

scotty38 said:


> I was looking at the Technika rather than the


 Sorry, my mistake. Good point about being plumbed in. But I don't think you can plumb in the Pro-600 for the same reason.

I just wanted to be sure you understand the difference between HX and Dual Boiler, and a smart HX like the MaraX.


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## scotty38

Thanks, I've read plenty on the differences but not used any in practice, apart from the single boiler of the Gaggia. My mind is not completely closed on some of the options available to me and I've been round and round many of the obvious contenders a number of times 😀


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## MediumRoastSteam

scotty38 said:


> Thanks, I've read plenty on the differences but not used any in practice, apart from the single boiler of the Gaggia. My mind is not completely closed on some of the options available to me and I've been round and round many of the obvious contenders a number of times 😀


 Check out on cooling flushes. If you are happy with that, then go for a traditional HX. If not, avoid it.


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## scotty38

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Check out on cooling flushes. If you are happy with that, then go for a traditional HX. If not, avoid it.


 Yep thanks, fully aware of the theory at least. That's some of the reason why I also considered the Profitec 600 but also can't help thinking firing up two boilers is not needed for my small volume of drinks which also plays into an odd cooling flush here and there being no big deal either. Yes a Marax fixes both issues 😀

I will add it's all these pros and cons that circle me round various machines and why I haven't fully decided yet so appreciate all the feedback as it's very useful.


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## Rob1

Just so everyone is aware....

The experimental feature on the second page is broken. I can't remember what I was thinking but the short of it is just keep the boiler fill level cell to 1000 (it shouldn't be there). At some point I'll update the links but I can't access the document right now to edit it.


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## kjarsheim

This is brilliant, thank you for the time and energy involved. This is my current fixation, making move from copper to stainless steel boiler machinery


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee

This is a great stuff; not that I will understand as I did these decades ago! Thank you


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## Baffo

Hallo,

it was pointed out to me that Scottish water can be prone to being corrosive - I hadn't considered it, and was only worried about scaling. I have enquired Scottish Water about alkalinity. For now I have the below about my area (so not my specific postcode, unsure if this matters) which mostly covers hardness.

Can anybody please tell me, whilst I wait for the update, whether there's a risk of corrosion from using a machine (ss boilers) on such water for a few weeks while I figure things out? I would imagine not, but I don't want to assume first and regret later. If so, can anybody suggest some emergency bottled water that would neither scale nor corrode?


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## DavecUK

@Baffo Absolutely no risk of corrosion at all.


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## Baffo

DavecUK said:


> @Baffo Absolutely no risk of corrosion at all.


 Thanks Dave - you mean in general or for the few weeks?


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## DavecUK

Baffo said:


> Thanks Dave - you mean in general or for the few weeks?


 I mean absolutely no risk.....ever, unless that ph value ever changes....which is unlikely


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## Baffo

DavecUK said:


> I mean absolutely no risk.....ever, unless that ph value ever changes....which is unlikely


 Phew. I'll still report back once Scottish Water let me know, but I feel better knowing that the Bianca isn't in danger. I've even cleaned the shower screen the other day, that Dave guy on YT is such a bad influence in making me good at maintenance!


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## DavecUK

Baffo said:


> Phew. I'll still report back once Scottish Water let me know, but I feel better knowing that the Bianca isn't in danger. I've even cleaned the shower screen the other day, that Dave guy on YT is such a bad influence in making me good at maintenance!


 Don't forget to read my wordpress review and videos on the paddle system, that also needs to be maintained over time....very important and very easy.


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## Rob1

There's not really a corrosion risk with steel even with distilled water. I think the only risk would be from dissolved CO2 in quite pure water and the presence of chlorides in tap/bottled water, especially in vapour, however even then you're probably taking many many years.


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Baffo said:


> Hallo,
> 
> it was pointed out to me that Scottish water can be prone to being corrosive - I hadn't considered it, and was only worried about scaling. I have enquired Scottish Water about alkalinity. For now I have the below about my area (so not my specific postcode, unsure if this matters) which mostly covers hardness.
> 
> Can anybody please tell me, whilst I wait for the update, whether there's a risk of corrosion from using a machine (ss boilers) on such water for a few weeks while I figure things out? I would imagine not, but I don't want to assume first and regret later. If so, can anybody suggest some emergency bottled water that would neither scale nor corrode?
> 
> 
> View attachment 54262


 Lucky @Baffo. We had to spend nearly £350-£400 to get the water, which is provided to you on tap! Very nice.


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## halo

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yes, the Osmio Zero will do you wonders, either run with the re-mineralisation cartridge OR remineralise yourself. Very simple to do with only sodium bicarbonate. That's what I do: I distil my water and add 100mg (yes, 0.1g of it to every litre. The easiest way to do this is to make a concentrate say, add 5g to 1L of water. That's your concentrate. That alone has a concentration of 5g/l. That's 5000mg/l. If you then add 20ml of that solution to a litre of water (using a syringe), your water will have (approx.) 100mg/l.
> 
> I've bitten the bullet and bought a 0.01g precision scale so I can work with less amounts of concentrate. (E.g.: I make a concentrate of 50ml of water by adding 0.5g of sodium bicarbonate). I then add 10ml per litre of water. 100mg/l is not set in stone, and regulates alkalinity. You can add more or less, say, 80mg/l to suit your taste, as it will mute acitity.


 Thank you for this great info.

As I'm only doing pour overs at the moment and making my own distilled water, is 0.1g/litre of Sodium bicarbonate all I need or do I need to do or add anything else to brew coffee?


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## MediumRoastSteam

halo said:


> Thank you for this great info.
> 
> As I'm only doing pour overs at the moment and making my own distilled water, is 0.1g/litre of Sodium bicarbonate all I need or do I need to do or add anything else to brew coffee?


 That's whaI do. But I have to say, it doesn't taste good for pour overs. If I were you, I'd just use tap water through. I wouldn't bother distilling for pour overs. Here's nothing to break due to scale, kettle can be easily descaled, unlike coffee machines.


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## 29244

Got an ECM with rotary pump and love it. Quiet as. Had the Technika lV which for no good reason l upgraded to the Synchronika. Both beautiful and highly functional.


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## halo

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That's whaI do. But I have to say, it doesn't taste good for pour overs. If I were you, I'd just use tap water through. I wouldn't bother distilling for pour overs. Here's nothing to break due to scale, kettle can be easily descaled, unlike coffee machines.


 My tap water is bad, and I mean really bad, before the covid outbreak it tasted of excessive chlorine, but you can actually smell the chlorine now.

Is there any other way of remineralizing distilled water?


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## cuprajake

Im planning to plumb the l1 in i think mines fine, but could some one confirm? Im going to prob run it through an hma at the very least

View attachment 54503
View attachment 54504


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## MediumRoastSteam

halo said:


> My tap water is bad, and I mean really bad, before the covid outbreak it tasted of excessive chlorine, but you can actually smell the chlorine now.
> 
> Is there any other way of remineralizing distilled water?


 Yes. There are some recipes that Scott Rao or one of those baristas recommend. Just do a quick google.


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## halo

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yes. There are some recipes that Scott Rao or one of those baristas recommend. Just do a quick google.


 Thanks, I will do that, so this is of no use:

https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/diy-water-recipes-redux/


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## Rob1

halo said:


> My tap water is bad, and I mean really bad, before the covid outbreak it tasted of excessive chlorine, but you can actually smell the chlorine now.
> 
> Is there any other way of remineralizing distilled water?


 A good charcoal filter should remove the chlorine if that's the only issue. Could still be higher in alkalinity or hardness than you'd want in which case you'd just cut the tap water with distilled water.


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## Rob1

halo said:


> Thanks, I will do that, so this is of no use:
> 
> https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/diy-water-recipes-redux/


 You can try whatever recipe you want. Hardness is hard to augment without some kind of downside and is of limited use in brewing coffee. Alkalinity makes the most difference. If you use Magnesium Sulphate and/or Calcium chloride you might find the water has a strange artificial sweetness or a bit of a salty/bitter taste to it, if you use purely sodium bicarbonate you might find it's a bit hollow or even soapy or salty....or you might not. The only way I've found to increase hardness without adding things into the water you wouldn't want (e.g. things that don't contribute to either hardness or alkalinity, though Sodium at 10mg/l is part of the SCA spec) is to dissolve a carbonate or hydroxide.


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## halo

Rob1 said:


> You can try whatever recipe you want. Hardness is hard to augment without some kind of downside and is of limited use in brewing coffee. Alkalinity makes the most difference. If you use Magnesium Sulphate and/or Calcium chloride you might find the water has a strange artificial sweetness or a bit of a salty/bitter taste to it, if you use purely sodium bicarbonate you might find it's a bit hollow or even soapy or salty....or you might not. The only way I've found to increase hardness without adding things into the water you wouldn't want (e.g. things that don't contribute to either hardness or alkalinity, though Sodium at 10mg/l is part of the SCA spec) is to dissolve a carbonate or hydroxide.


 Thanks, Rob, I will start with the sodium bicarbonate and take it from there, I was just curious to what quantities to start, with @MediumRoastSteam or matt pergers values.


----------



## Rob1

halo said:


> Thanks, Rob, I will start with the sodium bicarbonate and take it from there, I was just curious to what quantities to start, with @MediumRoastSteam or matt pergers values.


 It depends what alkalinity you want to brew with.

My spreadsheet on the first page will tell you how much to add. Go to the last page. Put the alkalinity you want in the yellow cell, scroll down and edit the table as appropritate (e.g. the "target" will be the bicarbonate value in the red bicarbonate cell directly above the table so you need to switch the sodium and bicarbonate stuff around)...If it tells you to add an amount of sodium bicarb that will be practically impossible to measure accurately without lab scales then you'll need to make a concentrate; so decide how much of a concentrate to make and how much of it to add to the brew water and it'll give you another value. 0.1g gives you about 60mg/l Alkalinity assuming you can measure 0.1g accurately which most scales can't...on a 0.00 resolution you might be out by 0.05 which is significant in this context. I don't know what Perger's recipe is but I'm guessing he's making a concentrate.


----------



## halo

@Rob1It does not allow me to enter any values, do I need to send an edit request?


----------



## cuprajake

I cant edit on my phone. May have to use pc


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## Rob1

You have to copy or save the file to a new one on your drive. You can't edit the original for obvious reasons.


----------



## halo

Rob1 said:


> You have to copy or save the file to a new one on your drive. You can't edit the original for obvious reasons.


 Thanks, downloaded.

So where do I get the target alkalinity values from, google?


----------



## Rob1

halo said:


> Thanks, downloaded.
> 
> So where do I get the target alkalinity values from, google?


 Yourself. It's a matter of taste. You might like 30, you might like 40, you might like 60. Depends on the acidity of the coffee and what you want.


----------



## halo

Rob1 said:


> Yourself. It's a matter of taste. You might like 30, you might like 40, you might like 60. Depends on the acidity of the coffee and what you want.


 Excellent, plenty to geek on.


----------



## Rob1

I've been able to get into my account and edit out the mistakes I made on the second page. I've always wondered if people who save a copy to their drive get the updates. Can anyone confirm?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Rob1 said:


> I've always wondered if people who save a copy to their drive get the updates. Can anyone confirm?


 Not sure @Rob1. I saved a copy on my one drive weeks ago. This is the second page, which I have.


----------



## Rob1

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Not sure @Rob1. I saved a copy on my one drive weeks ago. This is the second page, which I have.
> 
> View attachment 54827


 Damn, not updated. I thought they'd sync. Maybe it needs to be 'published' or something. I know it's possible to save documents to your drive from other people that are automatically updated...


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Rob1 said:


> Damn, not updated. I thought they'd sync. Maybe it needs to be 'published' or something. I know it's possible to save documents to your drive from other people that are automatically updated...


 It's fine @Rob1. You can make your excel as a part of a sticky thread, if it isn't already. People can always download the latest version.

Once we download, I don't think it would sync / auto update the version on my drive with yours'. It cant trace the origin. Firewall and security restrictions would prevent it.


----------



## numb15

Rob1 said:


> Damn, not updated. I thought they'd sync. Maybe it needs to be 'published' or something. I know it's possible to save documents to your drive from other people that are automatically updated...


 Hi,

I couldn't find all of the breakdowns from my local company (Thames Water, I live in Kingston upon Thames area) to put in to the spreadsheet, but I did find we have 258ppm Calcium Carbonate, so it's a bit hard.

I have a water softener installed at home. So I have two options for brewing:

- fill my machine with water from my Brita jug (which comes from the hard water tap)

- fill my machine with water from the water dispenser built in to the fridge (this also has an in-built filter in the fridge, but I believe this is hooked up to the softened water plumbing).

Which would you recommend?


----------



## Rob1

numb15 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I couldn't find all of the breakdowns from my local company (Thames Water, I live in Kingston upon Thames area) to put in to the spreadsheet, but I did find we have 258ppm Calcium Carbonate, so it's a bit hard.
> 
> I have a water softener installed at home. So I have two options for brewing:
> 
> - fill my machine with water from my Brita jug (which comes from the hard water tap)
> 
> - fill my machine with water from the water dispenser built in to the fridge (this also has an in-built filter in the fridge, but I believe this is hooked up to the softened water plumbing).
> 
> Which would you recommend?


 Neither. Sorry to be blunt but there's not much else to it.


----------



## MWJB

numb15 said:


> Which would you recommend?


 Get a KH drop kit off Amazon.

Measure your tap water.

Measure your softened water.

Use the water that is 54mg/L (3 degrees) alkalinity/KH.

If neither source is, mix them until you get 54mg/L, this is easily done with a jug & gram/kitchen scales.

E.g. my tap water is 190mg/L alkalinity. I have Zerowater that is none.

So 1 part tap water (100g) plus 3 parts (300g) Zerowater gives me 47mg/L, 3 degrees is the nearest at this resolution.


----------



## Rob1

@numb15 yes, I guess you could replace the brita jug with a zero jug, I use a distiller to get pure water to remineralise but you can cut tap water too as described. I doubt either of your filters will bring the water down to a low enough hardness and alkalinity but a GH/KH test kit will let you check...

Also I checked Thames Water and the values you need for the spreadsheet are provided in their report (alkalinity as caco3 and hardness as caco3 are listed) but is based on samples from 2019 so not great. I don't know how a zero jug filter works but the only way I know of getting rid of chlorides is distillation, and according to the report you've got over 50mg/l chloride, also nitrate and sulphate and other stuff but I don't know how these are dealt with by RO or the zero filter. If you try to use a salt softener sodium will go through the roof as it's already at 36mg/l. Basically my point is just cutting your tap water with a filtered water with no hardness/alkalinity but still with chlorides and other stuff is not ideal. Filters are really not my thing, they all claim to work in different ways and do different things and I don't really know anything about them beyond that vague concept.

You could try mixing filtered water down to a suitable alkalinity with a zero jug and check to see if the hardness is low enough to prevent scaling too. Filtered might be better than tap water for this, just tap water alone and the hardness is still going to be high enough to get scaling at an alkalinity of about 40-50mg/l but maybe filtering can bring the hardness down a bit without decreasing the alkalinity as much. You'd be bringing the sodium down too but you'd have to calculate what it gets down to approximately, and just hope you aren't sensitive to the taste of the stuff that has made it through the filter and hope that it won't damage the machine with long term use.

*EDIT: Wait this is for brewing? As in not an espresso machine? *


----------



## numb15

Rob1 said:


> @numb15 yes, I guess you could replace the brita jug with a zero jug, I use a distiller to get pure water to remineralise but you can cut tap water too as described. I doubt either of your filters will bring the water down to a low enough hardness and alkalinity but a GH/KH test kit will let you check...
> 
> Also I checked Thames Water and the values you need for the spreadsheet are provided in their report (alkalinity as caco3 and hardness as caco3 are listed) but is based on samples from 2019 so not great. I don't know how a zero jug filter works but the only way I know of getting rid of chlorides is distillation, and according to the report you've got over 50mg/l chloride, also nitrate and sulphate and other stuff but I don't know how these are dealt with by RO or the zero filter. If you try to use a salt softener sodium will go through the roof as it's already at 36mg/l. Basically my point is just cutting your tap water with a filtered water with no hardness/alkalinity but still with chlorides and other stuff is not ideal. Filters are really not my thing, they all claim to work in different ways and do different things and I don't really know anything about them beyond that vague concept.
> 
> You could try mixing filtered water down to a suitable alkalinity with a zero jug and check to see if the hardness is low enough to prevent scaling too. Filtered might be better than tap water for this, just tap water alone and the hardness is still going to be high enough to get scaling at an alkalinity of about 40-50mg/l but maybe filtering can bring the hardness down a bit without decreasing the alkalinity as much. You'd be bringing the sodium down too but you'd have to calculate what it gets down to approximately, and just hope you aren't sensitive to the taste of the stuff that has made it through the filter and hope that it won't damage the machine with long term use.
> 
> *EDIT: Wait this is for brewing? As in not an espresso machine? *


 Thanks, a lot to digest there, will try the kit first as suggested. It is for an espresso machine but I may want to try filter or French press too down the line


----------



## Rob1

For use outside of an espresso machine I really think the only thing to concern yourself with is alkalinity, although you may be be sensitive to other things in the water. For espresso machines with 316 or 316l steel boilers I'd avoid chloride completely, I think La Marzocco still recommend a max limit of 30mg/l in brass/copper boilers. I may be OTT when it comes to this. I found when I was using Magnesium sulphate and Calcium chloride to remineralise water I'd get bad tastes above about 20-30mg/l for Sulphate and Chloride alone but I forget which was which. Your mileage may vary with regards to tolerating it for taste or even noticing it, same for sodium.


----------



## ajohn

My water is too soft to check but I wondered about something recently. What would happen to hardness if water was boiled in a pressure cooker.. We also no longer have one.


----------



## Rob1

ajohn said:


> My water is too soft to check but I wondered about something recently. What would happen to hardness if water was boiled in a pressure cooker.. We also no longer have one.


 You'll be able to check the water with a titration kit, if it asks for a 5ml sample and 1 drop = 14mg/l or something then with a 20ml sample 1 drop = 3.5mg/l, so you can always test your water you just need to increase your sample volume until you get the resolution down to the point you're able to draw the line somewhere. It depends on the temp you reach but assuming you do get to the point scale starts to form then hardness and alkalinity will be reduced equally until scale stops forming. You can use the following equation from Jim Schulman's FAQ to calculate the mg/l scale that will form but you need to define the hardness, alkalinity and temperature.



> The calculation doesn't have a closed form solution. If you have a programming language, write an iterative subroutine to solve this equation for x, the milligram amount of scale per liter throughput, for any H, A, & T you want: *0.9*log(H - x) + 2.465*log(A - x) = 39.61 - 13.12*log(T + 273)* or *log(H - x) + 2.365*log(A - x) = 39.61 - 13.12*log(T + 273)*


 ...unfortunately I couldn't find a way of integrating this into the spreadsheet. To be honest I didn't look into it I just assumed there wouldn't be a way without linking to an external program or something. I might have a go with Python one day and see if I can get something working.


----------



## ajohn

It seems to be an imponderable. Comments suggest hardness must reduce as temperature increases and pressure cookers can reach 120C, maybe more. Dissolved gasses will be driven off and I suspect that includes C02.

It needs a pressure cooker and test kits really including pH.

 In some ways it goes back to something my dad mentioned when I tasted some water that had been boiled. Way too long ago for me to remember correctly or why it cropped up. I may have even tasted it due to that.

There is also the temporary and permanent hardness aspect. When I asked Severn Trent about what they actually measured I didn't get a clear answer suggesting it's total. I suspect permanent if it should be called that relates to temperature as well.


----------



## MWJB

ajohn said:


> It seems to be an imponderable. Comments suggest hardness must reduce as temperature increases and pressure cookers can reach 120C, maybe more. Dissolved gasses will be driven off and I suspect that includes C02.
> 
> It needs a pressure cooker and test kits really including pH.
> 
> In some ways it goes back to something my dad mentioned when I tasted some water that had been boiled. Way too long ago for me to remember correctly or why it cropped up. I may have even tasted it due to that.
> 
> There is also the temporary and permanent hardness aspect. When I asked Severn Trent about what they actually measured I didn't get a clear answer suggesting it's total. I suspect permanent if it should be called that relates to temperature as well.


 Permanent hardness is GH/Total hardness...the Ca & Mg as CaCO3.

Temporary hardness is KH/alkalinity/bicarbonate as mg/L*0.82. You want about 50mg/L as CaCO3.

Most water suppliers list both in their full reports.

pH should be 7 +/-1.

This has all been widely discussed for 20yrs with respect to espresso boilers & far from imponderable.


----------



## Rob1

Hardness will only reduce as temperature increases if scale forms. The water I use doesn't form scale even heated to 125c. It's not really useful to define temporary and permanent sources e.g. sources of hardness from sulphate and chloride that won't scale alone unless the water only contains sources of such 'permanent' hardness and no alkalinity from carbonate sources. You can make water like this with Magnesium and Calcium sulphate/chloride and Calcium Citrate for alkalinity, this is what is in the third wave water sachets. If you have a mix of sources of hardness including carbonate sources, and you just keep heating the water under pressure, once the alkalinity drops to 0 no more scale will form and there will be some hardness left behind that was associated with chloride and sulphate unless there are sources of carbonate that don't also contribute to hardness such as Sodium bicarbonate. Equally hardness could drop to zero and leave alkalinity remaining, it depends if the initial hardness exceeds alkalinity or vice versa. Alkalinity from carbonate sources and total hardness define scaling potential together, they need to remain in balance; if alkalinity is high and hardness is low you can get scale and vice versa.

I don't think you ever have to worry about exceeding solubility of 'permanent' sources in water, but it is possible for calcium sulphate scale to form at high concentrations which I saw at room temperature in a concentrate I made that combined magnesium sulphate and calcium chloride. But this was at concentrations a few thousand times more than you'd get in drinking water. One solubility is exceeded 'permanent' hardness has to precipitate too, but Calcium chloride has a solubility of 745g/l at 20c and as temperature increases solubility increases so it's not a concern in that sense.


----------



## ajohn

As far as I know tap water will always be alkaline. Maybe with the increased use of plastic mains that is not needed now but it appears to be due to chlorine which is added for other reasons.

Hardness here is always stated as 47ppm. Ph varies. 64 reading in the last 2 months have a max of 8.62 and a min of 7.42. The high will have been when work was done on the system some were. It happens at odd times and I can smell it as it comes out of the tap. Uk limits allow Ph to drop to 6.5.

Scaling in kettles over several years of use is more or less none existent. When I bought an espresso machine I noticed an extremely light film in a couple of places that descaler found rather hard to remove. The deposits were not even easy to see. I wondered about using the kettle as an indication of when to descale. Wasn't workable.

My SDB. Pass as a refurb and it arrived with more scale in it than a single descale cycle could remove. In fact a recent descale appears to have remove yet more suggesting the descale cycle is winning slowly.

Pressure cooker. Unfortunately we don't have one.


----------



## pbsmith

Some help please interpreting the output from the speadsheet?

Info taken from my water suppliers website.

Typical water hardness: Mod. Soft

Hardness clarke: 4.90



Parameter

Min

Average

Max

Units

Alkalinity as CaCO3

17.3

26

37.5

mg/l

Calcium

15.4

22.7

43.8

mg Ca/l

Chloride

5.21

<9.84

<56.8

mg Cl/l

Hardness Total as CaCO3

46

70

136

mg CaCO3/l

Magnesium

1.95

3.21

6.51

mg Mg/l




Hydrogen ion (pH)

6.74

7

7.66

pH value


I will be plumbing in my new machine when it arrives next week (no tank so must be plumbed in) and need to know what, if any, kind of filtration system i will need to keep it running correctly for as long as possible (de-scaling it is aparantly a proper headache) and also to give me some good tasting shots.

I have entered the figures for Alkalinity and hardness as CaCO3(using the average values) into the spreadsheet and it calculates



New Langelier Index:

-0.3510365556


The info box next to it says a positive number indicates scaling potential; A negative number indicates corrosion potential. But I have no idea of the range/scale of this given value to indicate how bad or good a problem you have either way.

-0.351 in my mind is a very small negative value - does this mean i have a very low risk of corrosion and no risk at all of scaling? Or where this calculation is concerned is it a big negative number? and it would need to be say -0.00351 to be small??

Would 0.00 be the ideal value - no corrosion no scaling? would the coffee tast good with this ?

Adding in the popular BWT Bestmax inline filter that most seem to use, would look to reduce the hardness further, this seems like a bad idea to me. Do I need to put one in that increases the hardness slightly (if there is such a thing) or would i get away with nothing ?

Open to any suggestions , Thanks


----------



## Rob1

-0.3 - +0.3 is considered balanced. Above/below is increasingly scale forming or increasingly corrosive, so you're just out of range. It changes with temperature so you can only aim for a range.

For taste (ymmv) I would want to increase alkalinity to about 40mg/l but doing so at the same hardness will result in scaling at that temp. Unfortunately I know nothing about filters to help you with that side of things so best email customer services with your specific goal to see what options they have, I imagine there will be something.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

While waiting for my espresso machine, I would like to test the GH/KH in my remineralised Osmio Zero, which will go into my machine. The KH/GH turns to relevant colours after a drop or two on a 5 ml sample.

To get some accuracy, I test on 20 ml of water on a cup. The question is what is an acceptable colour change? Is it a light green one, not so light green. green, dark green in the case of GH? The same in the case of KH. Should we take that reading as soon as the colour changes or should we keep adding drops until &#8230;.? This is important as it will make a difference to the level of alkalinity in the Osmio Zero water.

Please see an image below; I may be tempted to stop as soon as the colour changes. In the the case of GH, it may be 3 or 4 drops, giving an yield of 13.425 ppm or 17.85 ppm CaCO3.

Thanks !


----------



## Rob1

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> While waiting for my espresso machine, I would like to test the GH/KH in my remineralised Osmio Zero, which will go into my machine. The KH/GH turns to relevant colours after a drop or two on a 5 ml sample.
> 
> To get some accuracy, I test on 20 ml of water on a cup. The question is what is an acceptable colour change? Is it a light green one, not so light green. green, dark green in the case of GH? The same in the case of KH. Should we take that reading as soon as the colour changes or should we keep adding drops until &#8230;.? This is important as it will make a difference to the level of alkalinity in the Osmio Zero water.
> 
> Please see an image below; I may be tempted to stop as soon as the colour changes. In the the case of GH, it may be 3 or 4 drops, giving an yield of 13.425 ppm or 17.85 ppm CaCO3.
> 
> Thanks !
> 
> View attachment 58260


 It's as soon as the colour changes. Can't remember what it is now. Orange to green for one test, blue to yellow for another?

Either way it should be tinted one colour from the first drop and then it'll be x drops until the tint changes.....if it doesn't change colour and just turns green from the first drop then that's off the scale.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Rob1 said:


> It's as soon as the colour changes. Can't remember what it is now. Orange to green for one test, blue to yellow for another?
> 
> Either way it should be tinted one colour from the first drop and then it'll be x drops until the tint changes.....if it doesn't change colour and just turns green from the first drop then that's off the scale.


 Thanks Rob. To get to some degree of accuracy, I took 2 x 40ml samples weighed on 0.01 scale and converted the "No of drops" x dKH by 8 to get the 5ml sample results.

The derived GH is 13.4 mg/l and KH is 55.81 mg/l. My plan is test these on the re-mineralised Ozmio zero water every 2 weeks and testing the drawn (once at room temp) service boiler water for hardness every 2 weeks for hardness. My questions are as follows:

1) Are these frequencies of testing both the OZ water and service boiler water ok? or

2) Do you think the OZ water should be tested at every fill please? I think this would be painful and would not make sense.

3) Please see the image of the sheet for calculations. I think I can feed the machine tank straight from the re-mineralised OZ water without adding bicarb. What do you think please? The LI for the brew is a littler lower than the +- 0.3 at -0.57. Is this a concern for corrosion, although the Evo Leva sports Minima A316L stainless steel boilers.

Below are the two images, one each for the brew boiler (assumed temperature of 104 deg C -- 10 deg C margin over the group head temp on Evo Leva (I am on the 2nd batch). The second image is for the service boiler at 125 deg C.

Thanks


----------



## Rob1

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Thanks Rob. To get to some degree of accuracy, I took 2 x 40ml samples weighed on 0.01 scale and converted the "No of drops" x dKH by 8 to get the 5ml sample results.
> 
> The derived GH is 13.4 mg/l and KH is 55.81 mg/l. My plan is test these on the re-mineralised Ozmio zero water every 2 weeks and testing the drawn (once at room temp) service boiler water for hardness every 2 weeks for hardness. My questions are as follows:
> 
> 1) Are these frequencies of testing both the OZ water and service boiler water ok? or
> 
> 2) Do you think the OZ water should be tested at every fill please? I think this would be painful and would not make sense.
> 
> 3) Please see the image of the sheet for calculations. I think I can feed the machine tank straight from the re-mineralised OZ water without adding bicarb. What do you think please? The LI for the brew is a littler lower than the +- 0.3 at -0.57. Is this a concern for corrosion, although the Evo Leva sports Minima A316L stainless steel boilers.
> 
> Below are the two images, one each for the brew boiler (assumed temperature of 104 deg C -- 10 deg C margin over the group head temp on Evo Leva (I am on the 2nd batch). The second image is for the service boiler at 125 deg C.
> 
> Thanks
> View attachment 58303
> 
> 
> View attachment 58305


 First observation is Hardness and Alkalinity don't add up so you have sources in the remineralisation filter contributing to alkalinity that do not contribute to hardness. I have no idea what this might be. If all alkalinity were associated with hardness e.g. Calcium/Magnesium carbonate your hardness and alkalinity would be equal. Very low levels of things remaining in the water after RO would skew things a little but not that much...

1) I'd think so. I would try to find the lifespan of the filter anyway and then just forget about it. I don't know about the service boiler, it depends how much you use it. The problem with testing service boiler water is the fact when scaling happens alkalinity and hardness will reduce and logically it should reduce down to the point scaling will stop, so testing your water will always show you an alkalinity and hardness right on the point it will scale no matter how long you use it for, so you'd actually need to test fairly regularly to know when it starts. That's why the second page on the spreadsheet provides a (admittedly pita) method of attempting to schedule flushing based on how much water is put into the service boiler on average per day.

2) I doubt that would be necessary. I wouldn't do it myself.

3) I know virtually nothing about corrosion but I'd think 316l steel would be fine. Even with distilled water it is highly resistant to corrosion.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Rob1 said:


> First observation is Hardness and Alkalinity don't add up so you have sources in the remineralisation filter contributing to alkalinity that do not contribute to hardness. I have no idea what this might be. If all alkalinity were associated with hardness e.g. Calcium/Magnesium carbonate your hardness and alkalinity would be equal. Very low levels of things remaining in the water after RO would skew things a little but not that much...


 Thanks for the detailed note Rob. I assume, you have not paid attention to the bicarbonate, calcium and magnesium data points. I have directly reported the GH, which is kind of stable +- 5 mg/l since purchasing osmio zero. I thought the KH reading is a little bizarre compared to the GH and wondered if my eyes have deceived me, as I remember getting ~26.8 mg/l (6 drops on 20 ml water). i thx ago. I repeated the recent values during the last few days and is consistent at the reported level with a few mgs of accuracy.

How do you say the hardness and alkalinity do not add up please? I don't remember my high school chemistry. I will try and look up. 😊

I wonder if feeding sodium ion exchanged soft water (whole-house salt block water softener) is skewing up the alkalinity reading.

This week end, I will empty the internal water tank fully, refill and run a couple of tests without and with remineralisation catridge and compare the result. I do not think we will see a significant difference in readings as I remember @DavecUK in his review advising it doesn't do much.



Rob1 said:


> I would try to find the lifespan of the filter anyway and then just forget about it. I don't know about the service boiler, it depends how much you use i


 The recommended replacement cycle is 6 months. I am aware that folks using the salt-block based softened water typically get an alert to replace in about a year.

I make 6 coffees a day mostly with milk. Once I get my machine, I will mostly drink my espresso during the day. So, on average, I would steam 3-4 times a day, which I can reduce to 2, if I make 2 back to back shots each in the morning and evening respectively. That way, I can steam for 2 cups at a time. I guess, it's much much steam is used during the day than how many times a day!

Thanks again!


----------



## Rob1

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Thanks for the detailed note Rob. I assume, you have not paid attention to the bicarbonate, calcium and magnesium data points. I have directly reported the GH, which is kind of stable +- 5 mg/l since purchasing osmio zero. I thought the KH reading is a little bizarre compared to the GH and wondered if my eyes have deceived me, as I remember getting ~26.8 mg/l (6 drops on 20 ml water). i thx ago. I repeated the recent values during the last few days and is consistent at the reported level with a few mgs of accuracy.
> 
> How do you say the hardness and alkalinity do not add up please? I don't remember my high school chemistry. I will try and look up. 😊
> 
> I wonder if feeding sodium ion exchanged soft water (whole-house salt block water softener) is skewing up the alkalinity reading.
> 
> This week end, I will empty the internal water tank fully, refill and run a couple of tests without and with remineralisation catridge and compare the result. I do not think we will see a significant difference in readings as I remember @DavecUK in his review advising it doesn't do much.
> 
> The recommended replacement cycle is 6 months. I am aware that folks using the salt-block based softened water typically get an alert to replace in about a year.
> 
> I make 6 coffees a day mostly with milk. Once I get my machine, I will mostly drink my espresso during the day. So, on average, I would steam 3-4 times a day, which I can reduce to 2, if I make 2 back to back shots each in the morning and evening respectively. That way, I can steam for 2 cups at a time. I guess, it's much much steam is used during the day than how many times a day!
> 
> Thanks again!


 Yes, I ignored he figures you'd left in the other tables. I have explained why alkalinity and hardness don't add up "if they come from carbonate sources" as I said, if from CaCO3 or MgCO3 then hardness will equal alkalinity.

I don't like the Osmio Zero remineralisation filter because I have no idea what's in it. Last I checked the only thing I could find on the website was a video and it said something about Calcium and Magnesium 'impregnated with silver' and bonded to carbon. I'd assumed this was Calcium carbonate. Calcium bonded to carbon would be Calcium Carbide.....which I really hope is not the case. I don't know how you 'impregnate' Calcium with silver. Basically I'd disregard the stuff from Osmio as pseudo-scientific nonsense. They talk about hard water causing kidney stones but that isn't true. There's no significant difference between hard water and soft water causing kidney stones, nor is it likely anything but Calcium and Magnesium carbonate was used in the remineralisation balls (maybe with some silver added too). If you remove the balls from the filter and add them to water and don't get a flammable gas along with a beaker of cloudy water then it is not Calcium carbide.

The video also mentions organic and inorganic sources of calcium. This would indicate the source of Calcium is a phosphate or citrate, in which case I'm not sure how it is bonded to carbon. It the water is remineralised with citrate it will probably start to smell quite quickly, so it doesn't look like it's that.

I don't think the water you're putting in to filter matters at all.

The filter I was talking about checking was the remineralisation filter though now you mention it you would need to track the performance of the RO filters too. For the latter you'd just need to find the point they get exhausted I think, I don't think they slowly get less effective over time in a way that's particularly significant anyway.


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Rob1 said:


> if they come from carbonate sources" as I said, if from CaCO3 or MgCO3 then hardness will equal alkalinity.


 Thanks for your effort in explaining. Some people will never get it 🤣



Rob1 said:


> Calcium and Magnesium carbonate was used in the remineralisation balls


 I have requested the contents of the filter. Dave did mention in his review it doesn't make a difference. I will remove and test after completely emptying the internal water tank.



Rob1 said:


> I was talking about checking was the remineralisation filter


 It's a good thought and it never struck me. I will give them a call tomorrow and ask how to check if the contents are empty. Perhaps, all the minerals contents have already depleted and hence the alkalinity has gone up (as I thought I remember seeing a half of the current value a few months back).



Rob1 said:


> you mention it you would need to track the performance of the RO filters too. For the latter you'd just need to find the point they get exhausted I think, I don't think they slowly get less effective over time in a way that's particularly significant anyway.


 The recommended filter change is 6 months, unless the alert pops up earlier than this cycle. I know the users are running it for a year as the alert does not come. I guess, it is a function of how hard the water is. In my case, it is not.

FWIW, if it is going to help the coffee machine in a good shape, I wouldn't mind changing them every 6 months. I think it is about 55 quids for the filter packs. It's fine as long as I have not retired 😊

Thanks for your help. I will revert with my findings later.


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## Rob1

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> It's a good thought and it never struck me. I will give them a call tomorrow and ask how to check if the contents are empty. Perhaps, all the minerals contents have already depleted and hence the alkalinity has gone up (as I thought I remember seeing a half of the current value a few months back).


 The alkalinity would go down if the remineralisation cartridge is depleted. Alkalinity comes from dissolved carbonate, hardness comes from the Magnesium and Calcium associated with the carbonate which is why alkalinity and hardness are equal. They're both expressed "as CaCO3".


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Rob1 said:


> The alkalinity would go down if the remineralisation cartridge is depleted. Alkalinity comes from dissolved carbonate, hardness comes from the Magnesium and Calcium associated with the carbonate which is why alkalinity and hardness are equal. They're both expressed "as CaCO3".


 Ouch! 🤭 🤣

Thanks for lovely little chemistry lesson!


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