# How often do you descale?



## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

How often do people descale? 3 monthly? 6 monthly? Less? Or do you do what Sage says in my instructions and descale when you see scale in the water tank?

I know this is somewhat dependent on whether you have hard/soft water or whether you're using bottled, but just want to get a general idea of what is a good routine. I have moderately hard water and am using it out of the tap.

Also, does anyone use Puly descaler? I have heard the name before. It seems a lot cheaper than the Sage descaler. Can anyone recommend?

Thanks


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## jonr2 (Jan 6, 2021)

i have switched to an Osmio now but in the past i have used white vinegar which seems to work ok - i found it easier to smell when the solution had been washed through and was happier that if it hadnt then the worst that would happen was everything would taste like chips 🙂


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Thank you, how often did you do that?


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## jonr2 (Jan 6, 2021)

about every 3 months but our water is crazy hard down here


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Depends what machine you have. Boilers take longer than thermothingies, coils, jet or the earlier block which I understand was more of a problem.

If some one gets a call from a Sage engineer they will always say once a month what ever machine it is as they spend more time sorting that out than anything else. That has been reported by several people who have had one call to fix something or the other.

The earlier cheaper filter did descale a bit but some use a similar looking one that doesn't. It's capacity was much lower than the newer one. Of late they send test strips with machines to check water hardness and suggest using an another source if above some hardness. Many people use bottled water but not any one only certain brands that are very soft. Best ask as I don't know which brands. Cost wise if no filter is used it should work out cheaper than buying and replacing the new filter unless prices have gone down.

I did my BE every couple of months and live in a very soft water area. It doesn't take long on these so why not. I'd just take the filter out each time I did it and stored it in a mug of water.

If scale builds up it will mess up the PID function and scale sludge is good at blocking up things such as solenoid valves. Back flush can help as well as water collects and dries out in the 3 way circuit. Weekly job really but I do that ~monthly.

😅 A problem Sage have - selling machines from shops where people see them and buy and aren't aware of the problems but bean to cup machines can block up etc as well. At least all Sage machines are very easy to descale. Many aren't.

I just use Puly products as they work and are cheaper than Sage's. Including back flush tablet. Their engineers use Puly descaler.

If I used these particular brands of bottled water I would still descale now and again as all water has stuff dissolved in it.

Here I can use a kettle for several years without it showing any signs of scale but it does build up in the espresso machines.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Emily said:


> How often do people descale? 3 monthly? 6 monthly? Less? Or do you do what Sage says in my instructions and descale when you see scale in the water tank?
> 
> I know this is somewhat dependent on whether you have hard/soft water or whether you're using bottled, but just want to get a general idea of what is a good routine. I have moderately hard water and am using it out of the tap.
> 
> Also, does anyone use Puly descaler? I have heard the name before. It seems a lot cheaper than the Sage descaler. Can anyone recommend?


 It's better if you don't have to descale....perhaps try bottled water (with very low hardness) or filtered....then scale a lot less often or never, depending on the solutions you choose. I never descale any of my machines.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm in a soft water area, descale 3-6 months. Using citric acid or puly descaler


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## SO8 (May 24, 2020)

I thought my machine warns me when to descale via the initial hardness setting set up when i first bought it - am I wrong ? Sage Oracle .... warning has never come up though so i did it at 6 months. It got an airlock ... total pain to sort but did it ok.


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

in Kent (pretty hard water), every 3 months. Probably not often enough.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

SO8 said:


> I thought my machine warns me when to descale via the initial hardness setting set up when i first bought it - am I wrong ? Sage Oracle .... warning has never come up though so i did it at 6 months. It got an airlock ... total pain to sort but did it ok.


 Probably wrong unfortunately, yes. A "hardness setting" will be somewhat vague as hardness is only one side of the coin.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> I never descale any of my machines


 Me thinks you should mention what water you use,  you know I wont use it because when I kept tropical fish in it took a lot of their colour away.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

SO8 said:


> I thought my machine warns me when to descale via the initial hardness setting set up when i first bought it - am I wrong ? Sage Oracle .... warning has never come up though so i did it at 6 months. It got an airlock ... total pain to sort but did it ok.


 I'm not keen on the db machines scale warning either. It's better to listen for changes in the boiling noises when it heats up from cold and or extensions in the heat up time. When their is no scale the PID makes the bubbling noise disappear completely and rather slowly. When their is plenty of scale the early boiling noises are a lot more vigorous.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Me thinks you should mention what water you use,  you know I wont use it because when I kept tropical fish in it took a lot of their colour away.


 You shouldn't use Milton John 😉


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> perhaps try bottled water (with very low hardness)


 Thanks for the replies. Bottled water - I read on the forum about people using Tesco/Waitrose water but since I have neither of these supermarkets nearby I didn't bother too much otherwise I would use it. But would be more hassle going to get the water atm. I looked at buying a water filter ie. brita but I also read it does little to filter out hardness and there is a filter in the tank anyway. I think I will do a descale when I change the filter at 3 months use.


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## Waitforme (Dec 13, 2020)

A lot of people use Volvic water, perhaps there is somewhere local that sells that ?

I use a 50/50 mix of Tesco Ashbeck and Volvic.

The safe water chart from the thread below may help ....

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/45543-water-for-boilers-amp-manual-brewing/?do=embed


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Waitforme said:


> lot of people use Volvic water, perhaps there is somewhere local that sells tha


 Thanks, I have a small Sainsbury's and coop nearby - they might. Otherwise it is Lidl/Aldi.

I know some people use bottled so they don't have to use the expensive Sage filters. But I thought on balance, driving a long way to a supermarket I wouldn't normally shop at just to get some bottles of water would probably not save me a lot of money. Maybe a bit of volvic if I use sparingly might be better. I don't make more than one coffee a day and some days I make none.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Emily said:


> Thanks, I have a small Sainsbury's and coop nearby - they might. Otherwise it is Lidl/Aldi.
> I know some people use bottled so they don't have to use the expensive Sage filters. But I thought on balance, driving a long way to a supermarket I wouldn't normally shop at just to get some bottles of water would probably not save me a lot of money. Maybe a bit of volvic if I use sparingly might be better. I don't make more than one coffee a day and some days I make none.


Where do you live? If you go online your water company should post their water hardness on their website.
If I lived in a hard water area I'd just use bottled water it will kill your machine. The likes of Ashbeck and other supermarket water cheap as chips


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## Chriss29 (Oct 21, 2020)

I read on someone's blog that they add citric acid to their water tank when filling it up. I presume it's a small amount but an interesting solution. Doesn't affect the taste either it seems. Is this a valid alternative?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Chriss29 said:


> I read on someone's blog that they add citric acid to their water tank when filling it up. I presume it's a small amount but an interesting solution. Doesn't affect the taste either it seems. Is this a valid alternative?


I'm no expert but I'd definitely not recommend drinking citric acid.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

My water is moderately hard according to the water company. So around medium. Will definitely give some thought to using bottled when I can get hold of some. Even if not all the time, I guess it will help, thank you for the replies all!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Some people use citric acid to descale. Also white vinegar which I believe Sage used to suggest long ago. For what it costs use Puly descaler and too often is better than just frequently enough. In boilers it can flake off the element and collect in the bottom. It can form fine powder that turns to sludge when wet. My DB had the solenoid rattles down to that. Web searches can bring up info on dismantling and cleaning espresso machine solenoids. Always unplug the machine when poking around inside. Some parts will be live. Thermothingy machines will leave scale behind when water boils off.

Back flushing helps.  Puly tablets cost less than Sage's. This can help remove fine scale powder and other stuff that is likely to be in water not just dried out shot residue and grinds. Some say weekly is ideal. I think Sage machines suggest doing it every 200 shots or some number like that. I feel that really is extreme. I do it monthly which usually means between 30 and 60 shots and remove and clean the shower screen etc.

Not sure what @DavecUK uses these days but he did use RO water and rehardened with a soluble substance = no scale. It's an option and units can be fitted with a remineraliser cartridge as well. Unpumped units are cheapest and flow depends on the water mains pressure. Might be an option to just use with an espresso machine and some to spare via over night runs etc.

Then there is Osmio Zero  to go with your Niche Zero but ~£400 is not a cheap option compared with the price of some espresso machines. We use a hot water dispenser and as with all 100C isn't what they actually deliver at their spouts. It will be slightly off the boil which changes the taste of tea compared with boiling straight out of a kettle.  Gets people into how teas should be drunk, off the boil and left to steep for a while and that changes the taste.

These sort of units are said to reduce scale. Pass but there are a number about that specifically say they do.

https://www.toolstation.com/water-filter/p84582

Checking water with a TDS meter is a bit of a nonsense but if some sort of purification is used they can show that things have changed. Screwfix sell a hardness test for ~£4. Dropper bottle type. Not sure how many it will do. Then there are test strips as Sage supply with some ?? all machines now - amazon ebay etc.

My DB was a refurb as wasn't sure I wanted one. One day I thought the descale hadn't done one of the boilers correctly so did it again immediately after. I had already descaled it a couple of times for the usual reason -use. The double descaling transformed how the machine heats up. So did it yet again doubling the usual 20min run with descaler in the boilers before flushing. So the refurb people had descaled it. I descaled it as soon as it arrived and then with use. Problem - descaling hadn't removed all of it. So each time it was being used for a while before descaling the quantity of scale in it was building up rather than being completely removed.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

14 months in and I'm yet to descale my BE 😬

I use Lockhills and the Sage filters. This thread has reminded me, I'll do it tomorrow!


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## Aidy (Jul 8, 2015)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I'm no expert but I'd definitely not recommend drinking citric acid.


 Probably want to avoid oranges and lemons then.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Aidy said:


> Probably want to avoid oranges and lemons then.


 all round to yours for acid cocktail!


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

I'm curious if adding a tiny amount of citric acid in the reservoir has any impact on scale or flavour.

Regular descaling is a pain and I'm not interested in expensive RO systems not that keen on plastic waste from bottled water.


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## Aidy (Jul 8, 2015)

Michael87 said:


> I'm curious if adding a tiny amount of citric acid in the reservoir has any impact on scale or flavour.
> 
> Regular descaling is a pain and I'm not interested in expensive RO systems not that keen on plastic waste from bottled water.


 Add a bit to your coffee and see if you can taste it?

I guess maybe it might affect the extraction, though. Still, easy first test is just to add some before drinking.


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## Aidy (Jul 8, 2015)

https://www.coffeechemistry.com/citric-acid


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Michael87 said:


> I'm curious if adding a tiny amount of citric acid in the reservoir has any impact on scale or flavour.


 Well....


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

^ gather thats a bad idea


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> Well....


 There are others that could be used. Hydrochloric is pretty good on calcium compounds. Cheap too if the right brick cleaner is bought.

Not that I am going to try but if some one want to know if some certain acid helps go ahead and try it. I wont be.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> It's better if you don't have to descale....perhaps try bottled water (with very low hardness) or filtered....then scale a lot less often or never, depending on the solutions you choose. I never descale any of my machines.


 Why never descale? What's the possible negatives? I assume its due to delicate nature of the machines?


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I've never descaled my Spaz. I live in a hard water area which would have killed it dead had I not plumbed it in with a ion exchange filter.

I keep meaning to get it serviced but was quoted £500 by someone in Bristol.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Tinkstar said:


> Why never descale? What's the possible negatives? I assume its due to delicate nature of the machines?


 If you search back through the threads, you will find that often people have problems after descaling.



Leaks that have been there but calcified and sealed (if not seen, leak can then cause further damage, water or water+descaler solution)


Pieces break off of badly scaled machines and block small holes, solenoid valves, group jets, pressurestats etc..


Descaling is aggressive to copper


It's a PITA to remove all the descaler, for some machines nigh on impossible without opening up a boiler fitting, this in itself can cause further damage such as more leaks, snapped fittings damaged pipes etc..


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Tinkstar said:


> Why never descale? What's the possible negatives? I assume its due to delicate nature of the machines?


 He's having fun with you and using rather treated water that can't form scale  or so he insists.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> Descaling is aggressive to copper


 And brass, Sage limit what the brew and actually the hot water pass through.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It's an interesting area. We had a gas stove with pretty brass burners. Makers suggested cleaning and brightening them by soaking in vinegar. Works too. Etches them a little.

Really all machines should be examined internally periodically looking for powdery residues around joints. Might not be scale as all water has certain things dissolved in it.

I have a used machine that I wanted to try. One of the things I noticed was a white line around the water tank. Unlike Sage machines no easy descale so will need spanners and a snake camera to see what's going on in it. Always used with bottled water. If there is deposits in the tank there probably will be elsewhere.

As some one mentioned getting an engineer to service a machine is expensive.  Wouldn't surprise me if Sage is cheaper but they only seem to offer fault fixes.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> Leaks that have been there but calcified and sealed (if not seen, leak can then cause further damage, water or water+descaler solution)
> 
> 
> Pieces break off of badly scaled machines and block small holes, solenoid valves, group jets, pressurestats etc..
> ...


 Eek! 😩


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> Eek! 😩


 Stop the descale lol already making enough mess not locking the pf in 🤣


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> Stop the descale lol already making enough mess not locking the pf in


 This whole topic is frightening me now 😂😂😂


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Emily said:


> This whole topic is frightening me now 😂😂😂


 Just descale the machine regularly and forget it.  At some point if not done often enough you'll find out why it needs to be done. No problem if the machine is under warrantee. Some one may come and fix it and suggest you do it once a month or Sage may just replace it.

When you drink coffee from an espresso machine when you are out the water that goes though will have been filtered and chances are the machine will be serviced from time to time.

 My wife uses pods and a Lavazza milk frother. The frother produces nice soft peaky foam and heats it but I don't know how hot it gets. Foam feels nice though. The pod machine will probably have scale problems eventually.


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## Myles (Mar 28, 2020)

An engineer who came to my house to fix my Barista Pro told me that the PULY descaler is the same thing as the Sage descaler. He told me NOT to wait for the descale symbol to show but to descale about every 6 weeks. I saw the size of the boiler and the tiny pipes and tubes in the machine and understood why - there is only a tiny tolerance for any kind of blockage. He found the smallest strand of fibre (from a cloth I guess) in a tube and that is what was causing my steamer output to drop.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Myles said:


> An engineer who came to my house to fix my Barista Pro told me that the PULY descaler is the same thing as the Sage descaler. He told me NOT to wait for the descale symbol to show but to descale about every 6 weeks. I saw the size of the boiler and the tiny pipes and tubes in the machine and understood why - there is only a tiny tolerance for any kind of blockage. He found the smallest strand of fibre (from a cloth I guess) in a tube and that is what was causing my steamer output to drop.


 Thanks, that's very useful. I have ordered some Puly descaler. I don't have a descaler symbol on my machine. The instructions say descale when there is scale in the tank but it seemed to me that people were descaling as part of a regular routine rather than waiting to see the signs.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It's not so much scale in the pipes it's where bits gets too in solenoids etc and the thermo coil / jet. If scale build up in those it upsets the water heating control - PID, just as it does when it collects on the element in boiler based machines.

Backflushing helps as well. Scale sludge gets into the solenoids and exhaust pipe the 3 way valve uses to dump water into the drip tray. This is water sucked out of the puck and from above it when the shot has finished.  Not sucked really but that way of looking at it is ok. It's actually blown out by the brew pressure.

Steaming produces most scale as the water is being vaporised in the thermothingy. Other things may be dissolved in water as well and it will collect there. Fortunately the same heating is used for brew so it can be removed easily. Sludge etc can get into the steam valve but I haven't heard many comments about problems in that area. Blocked nozzle yes usually due to not purging after milk is steamed. The actual nozzle on the wand can be unscrewed with the pricker

Shh - another thread mentioned bitter milk drinks but ok taken other ways. Some one posted a comment that may well be the reason. Mouth comparing coffee taste with milk. Try a blend suitable for milk drinks.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Aidy said:


> https://www.coffeechemistry.com/citric-acid


 There seems to be some sense in the idea

*
Temporary hardness
*

Temporary or carbonate hardness and alkalinity frequently, but not always, mean the same thing (see below). Bicarbonate or hydrogen carbonate is a more scientific term since alkalinity is actually the concentration of the bicarbonate (HCO-3) ion in the water.

If acid is dosed into water-containing bicarbonate, the ion becomes converted to carbon dioxide (CO2) gas, while the water becomes only slightly acidic. (Sodium bicarbonate taken against acid stomach uses this property.) The drop in pH from a given acid dose is much smaller than would result from the same amount of acid dosed into water containing no bicarbonate. When enough acid has been added to convert all the bicarbonate to CO2, further acid dosing leads to the sharp drop in pH, which is expected from water containing no bicarbonate.

Another reaction of bicarbonate is that in boiling water it combines with any hardness present to produce scale, while releasing CO2 into the steam. This hardness is called the temporary hardness. Its concentration therefore depends on the lessor amounts of either hardness or bicarbonate. Most waters contain more hardness than bicarbonate, so that the temporary hardness is usually equal to the bicarbonate content. The temporary hardness quoted in analyses is often the only information available on the bicarbonate content of the water.

An extract from a book on water treatment. It suggests adding acid drop by drop and monitoring the ph change.  I'd want to ask a chemist about possible by products and I don't mean the high street type.

This simplest solution really could well be to boil the water before adding it to the machine and use a simple filter to remove any bits. Say a pour over filter paper. A recollection from long ago that I am not going to check would be to use a pressure cooker to achieve a higher temperature. It would also be a nice sanitary item to keep water in while it cools.


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## Chriss29 (Oct 21, 2020)

This thread convinced me to give the Flair a go and so far loving it!


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