# The Subject Of Water Again!



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

We use the usual recommended bottled water for our machine but for the kettle we use a Brita filter jug, and for drinking we use distilled with Celtic salt added.

Our water here here is VERY hard. The kettle is showing signs of scale within weeks of cleaning it despite changing the Brita filter every 3 weeks. And I am just not enjoying the drinking water as much as I was when we had Hildon bottled still water.

My aim aim is to have as little plastic waste as possible, to have a clean kettle, and to know I'm not glugging a load of rubbish in my drinking water. If it could go in the L-R then it would be a bonus but as we don't use a huge quantity then I can live with bottled for that.

Plumbing in isn't an option.

Would something like this be any good - has anyone got something similar?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/AcalaQuell-Reservoir-capacity-Filtration-Technology/dp/B01BJ9AQFY

Or a jug system with better filtration?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Epic-Water-Pesticides-Industrial-Pollutants/dp/B01FRRN9YY

Advice welcome, and thank you in advance


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

MildredM said:


> We use the usual recommended bottled water for our machine but for the kettle we use a Brita filter jug, and for drinking we use distilled with Celtic salt added.
> 
> Our water here here is VERY hard. The kettle is showing signs of scale within weeks of cleaning it despite changing the Brita filter every 3 weeks. And I am just not enjoying the drinking water as much as I was when we had Hildon bottled still water.
> 
> ...


Thanks @MildredM - I have the same aspirations re plastics and currently the same regime for the Mara and my kettle. Other, better, solutions would be great and like you I can't plumb a filter in (rented apartment) so look forward to learning more


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

The second link doesn't seem to remove limescale.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I'd very wary of these products actually being able to remove the components that cause limescale and other components that cause coffee machine problems. As already said, the second product does not reduce scaling and I don't think the first one is going to do much either. One of the options might be to change the Britta filter more often and try passing the water through the jug more than once. Otherwise, consider moving to Reverse Osmosis (RO) and then treat the water afterwards. At least you know the water that comes out is almost 100% pure and then only contains what you put back in....it also almost guarantees very few problems with Coffee machines, kettles and the like.

There is a lot of scam science around water and the marketing of water solutions.

If 5 stage pumped under counter systems are a step too far, then perhaps a counter top system might suit you better. Perhaps something like this....certainly will do more than the very expensive super trendy Acala thing.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B06X9VQRD5/ref=asc_df_B06X9VQRD557791395/?tag=cfukweb-21&creative=22110&creativeASIN=B06X9VQRD5&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312727631989&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2105950259260193347&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006592&hvtargid=pla-553660468465&th=1&psc=1

https://www.osmiowater.co.uk/zip-portable-reverse-osmosis-system.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAvKzhBRC1ARIsANEXdgzMv8AjHN5U0wwCOKIUEaswX1AX5flnsaVeQvnBaWjaXV2DjH7Cdl0aAo0tEALw_wcB


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> I'd very wary of these products actually being able to remove the components that cause limescale and other components that cause coffee machine problems. As already said, the second product does not reduce scaling and I don't think the first one is going to do much either. One of the options might be to change the Britta filter more often and try passing the water through the jug more than once. Otherwise, consider moving to Reverse Osmosis (RO) and then treat the water afterwards. At least you know the water that comes out is almost 100% pure and then only contains what you put back in....it also almost guarantees very few problems with Coffee machines, kettles and the like.
> 
> There is a lot of scam science around water and the marketing of water solutions.
> 
> ...


That RO unit would remove the need for a kettle too.


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## jonf (Nov 17, 2018)

Interesting... That first one linked through to https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stainless-Gravity-Purifier-Sterasyl-Filters/dp/B00519AM5S/ which looks pretty... interesting. Filter jugs filters don't last long and definitely leave a specific taste, so if this ceramic filter lasts six months and leaves no taste... checks bank balance


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MildredM said:


> Our water here here is VERY hard. The kettle is showing signs of scale within weeks of cleaning it despite changing the Brita filter every 3 weeks. And I am just not enjoying the drinking water as much as I was when we had Hildon bottled still water.
> 
> My aim aim is to have as little plastic waste as possible, to have a clean kettle, and to know I'm not glugging a load of rubbish in my drinking water. If it could go in the L-R then it would be a bonus but as we don't use a huge quantity then I can live with bottled for that.
> 
> ...


Hildon is pretty hard water, it's as hard as our tap water. Hardness in drinking water generally isn't an issue, it's thought to be good for you if anything.

Neither of the links you have really describe how the filters deal with hardness & bicarbonate.

You have a distiller, so for kettles & machines, why not get the water report (Calcium, Magnesium, bicarbonates, total hardness, alkalinity) for your tap water then mix tap with distilled at an appropriate ratio? This is what I am doing at the moment with a Zerowater filter.


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

For the scale thing you're unlikely to get things done using one jug (at least in my experience) if your water is very hard. The easiest solution would be to get a regular filter (like brita or bwt) and cut it with a zerowater jug. Using just the zerowater leads to not very tasty coffee, you can blend back in some minerals with the other jug you'll have to do it to taste/tds reading.

I use the zerowater jug and "make" my own coffee water with a sodastream and a bunch of minerals but can see why some wouldn't like to do that (it's easy but requires a little forward planning).

You can calculate whether your water will cause scale by plugging numbers into an LI formula but you need to know mineral constitution, if you re-mineralise yourself this is easy. If not if you aim for a tds reading that is below about 90 you should be scale free or at least very low scaling.

Some jugs decrease the ph of the water which can cause corrosion (which is worse than scaling as it's usually permanent) so it's worth checking what's coming out of the jugs, aim for a neutral ph where possible. (The ph thing seems to depend on source water rather than filters themselves).

EDIT: Or you could wait for Colonna's peak water jug to be released, not sure how well it will perform/cost yet though:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/522120647/peak-water-coffee-brewing-elevated


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Hildon is pretty hard water, it's as hard as our tap water. Hardness in drinking water generally isn't an issue, it's thought to be good for you if anything.
> 
> Neither of the links you have really describe how the filters deal with hardness & bicarbonate.
> 
> You have a distiller, so for kettles & machines, why not get the water report (Calcium, Magnesium, bicarbonates, total hardness, alkalinity) for your tap water then mix tap with distilled at an appropriate ratio? This is what I am doing at the moment with a Zerowater filter.


Thanks, MWJB. The other problem with the distiller (I did get the water report and worked out the Celtic salt minerals would add the required back in after a lot of reading up) is the need to descale the flipping thing every 6 fills. Citric acid wouldn't touch it on the base, made worse if we let it run right down to the last drop of water which we don't do now, so I am using sulphamic acid with just hot tap water and leaving it for a few hours. More chemicals down the drain (no idea if S/a is bad for the drain) then loads of rinsing to make sure it's clean again. It feels a faff with having to do it so often.

When I tried it half tap water to distilled I can taste chlorine if we use it as drinking water, and in the kettle I couldn't keep up with enough distilled water and the kettle showed signs of scale round the lid etc within days.

I can see the links I posted don't deal with hardness etc now I've read properly.

Hildon in glass bottles for drinking may may be an answer but then I still don't feel comfortable about it from other angles.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Power Freak said:


> For the scale thing you're unlikely to get things done using one jug (at least in my experience) if your water is very hard. The easiest solution would be to get a regular filter (like brita or bwt) and cut it with a zerowater jug. Using just the zerowater leads to not very tasty coffee, you can blend back in some minerals with the other jug you'll have to do it to taste/tds reading.
> 
> I use the zerowater jug and "make" my own coffee water with a sodastream and a bunch of minerals but can see why some wouldn't like to do that (it's easy but requires a little forward planning).
> 
> ...


I backed the Peak water jug but it seems to be running late now and I'm wondering if it will ever come through.

I will look at Zero water jug next









Thanks


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MildredM said:


> Thanks, MWJB. The other problem with the distiller (I did get the water report and worked out the Celtic salt minerals would add the required back in after a lot of reading up) is the need to descale the flipping thing every 6 fills. Citric acid wouldn't touch it on the base, made worse if we let it run right down to the last drop of water which we don't do now, so I am using sulphamic acid with just hot tap water and leaving it for a few hours. More chemicals down the drain (no idea if S/a is bad for the drain) then loads of rinsing to make sure it's clean again. It feels a faff with having to do it so often.
> 
> When I tried it half tap water to distilled I can taste chlorine if we use it as drinking water, and in the kettle I couldn't keep up with enough distilled water and the kettle showed signs of scale round the lid etc within days.
> 
> ...


Any solution to reducing hardness in your tap water is going to end up with removing the scale from the distiller, new filter cartridges etc. You have just got to make a call on the lesser of the unavoidable evils.

If your water is very hard, half distilled & half tap isn't going to reduce scale. I use one part tap to 5 parts Zero water (for a machine, 8 parts for brewed).

What is in the Celtic salt? Anything I see on a browser takes me to Celtic sea salt.

Natural spring waters aren't allowed to have things like chlorine added. If chlorine is the issue with the drinking water, you just need to find a filter that gets rid of this, not sure why you need to reduce the hardness for drinking water. Some water authorities suggest leaving tap water in the fridge for half an hour (I tend to drink sparkling water, so have never tried this myself).

Seems to me you have 2 issues, scale for appliances (chlorine is not a big deal here) and reducing chlorine smell for drinking water (hardness is not an issue here). They might need separate measures.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

MildredM said:


> I backed the Peak water jug but it seems to be running late now and I'm wondering if it will ever come through.
> 
> I will look at Zero water jug next
> 
> ...


Don't think there have been any delays since the huge redesign to a britta cartridge type arangement instead of the original disc?


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Any solution to reducing hardness in your tap water is going to end up with removing the scale from the distiller, new filter cartridges etc. You have just got to make a call on the lesser of the unavoidable evils.
> 
> If your water is very hard, half distilled & half tap isn't going to reduce scale. I use one part tap to 5 parts Zero water (for a machine, 8 parts for brewed).
> 
> ...


You are right, it IS 2 issues. For drinking, apart from chlorine, it's all the other crap I'm not sure I want to drink. And the way I feel now, I think cleaning the distiller is the lesser of two evils for the kettle water. As least I'm not stuffing plastic in the recycle bin . . .

It is Celtic sea salt. I looked into it and the one I got was meant to be a good mix of minerals suitable for adding to distilled water to put the minerals back. It's one of those damp, grey salts.

Looking at the Zero filter system there seems to be a lot of negative reviews due to the short life of the filter and this fishy water thing.

Going to read some more.....


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Don't think there have been any delays since the huge redesign to a britta cartridge type arangement instead of the original disc?


Ah-ha! I'd missed their recent (and rare) update. It sounds promising . . . .


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MildredM said:


> You are right, it IS 2 issues. For drinking, apart from chlorine, it's all the other crap I'm not sure I want to drink. And the way I feel now, I think cleaning the distiller is the lesser of two evils for the kettle water. As least I'm not stuffing plastic in the recycle bin . . .
> 
> It is Celtic sea salt. I looked into it and the one I got was meant to be a good mix of minerals suitable for adding to distilled water to put the minerals back. It's one of those damp, grey salts.
> 
> ...


OK, can you be more specific about all the other crap? Spring water suppliers aren't required to label the bottles with all the things that the local water authority might. It doesn't necessarily mean that they have significantly less stuff than tap water (other than what is added for safety reasons).

Still early days with my Zerowater, can't really comment on long term issues.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

MildredM said:


> Ah-ha! I'd missed their recent (and rare) update. It sounds promising . . . .


Oh yeah. Forgot they changed to a 'drop down' placement instead of clipping it underneath too. 

Fingers crossed it lives up to it's promise but the stats so for are looking good.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

MWJB said:


> OK, can you be more specific about all the other crap? Spring water suppliers aren't required to label the bottles with all the things that the local water authority might. It doesn't necessarily mean that they have significantly less stuff than tap water (other than what is added for safety reasons).
> 
> Still early days with my Zerowater, can't really comment on long term issues.


Other stuff (in the tap water) being lead, heavy metals, and whatever it is that makes tea scummy.

I am now thinking I'd be better waiting to see if the Peak materialises and in the meanwhile carry on with the distiller/and descaler for the kettle, and look into boxed still spring water for drinking. Harrogate Spring Water, for example. At least the box can be recycled and there's minimum plastic (compared to bottles). It comes out at 4p per 100mls.

Still reading though...


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

MildredM said:


> Looking at the Zero filter system there seems to be a lot of negative reviews due to the short life of the filter and this fishy water thing.
> 
> Going to read some more.....


The fishy/plastic water taste is down to people using the filter past the point zerowater tells you to use the filter I'm 99% sure of it (I tasted it past the 006 reading when I changed it once out of interest).

The life on them depends how hard your water is to begin with, they have a good table on their website that shows life ( https://ww.zerowater.com/images/tds-chart.jpg ) for a filter that is pretty accurate for me (I'm in the "exceptionally high" bracket and get about 12 gallons/40 litres per filter). I know other people "hack" them to extend the life by doing things like keeping an expired filter as a sort of "pre-filter" to protect the working filter but I can't be bothered with that. For me the cost works out about the same as buying distilled water in bottles but there's less waste, is easier and I just feel more comfortable knowing the water is "fresh".

My main issue with zerowater (after about 6 months use) is the filter jugs are plasticy/cheap feeling and don't really fit together nicely. I find you have to be quite careful when changing a filter as I've had a couple not fix together properly leaving a path for the tap water to bypass the filter (and you end up with 020 TDS readings and the like) but taking it apart and putting it back together has fixed it.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MildredM said:


> Other stuff (in the tap water) being lead, heavy metals, and whatever it is that makes tea scummy.
> 
> I am now thinking I'd be better waiting to see if the Peak materialises and in the meanwhile carry on with the distiller/and descaler for the kettle, and look into boxed still spring water for drinking. Harrogate Spring Water, for example. At least the box can be recycled and there's minimum plastic (compared to bottles). It comes out at 4p per 100mls.
> 
> Still reading though...


I thought Calcium carbonate was the main offender in tea scum, I don't know that lead is necessarily a culprit. The local authority probably has a limit on the lead that can be in the water (here it is 10 micrograms per litre), again, heavy metals may not be declared on the bottled water but it doesn't mean they don't have any.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> I'd very wary of these products actually being able to remove the components that cause limescale and other components that cause coffee machine problems. As already said, the second product does not reduce scaling and I don't think the first one is going to do much either. One of the options might be to change the Britta filter more often and try passing the water through the jug more than once. Otherwise, consider moving to Reverse Osmosis (RO) and then treat the water afterwards. At least you know the water that comes out is almost 100% pure and then only contains what you put back in....it also almost guarantees very few problems with Coffee machines, kettles and the like.
> 
> There is a lot of scam science around water and the marketing of water solutions.
> 
> ...


David, would you recommend those for filling up the coffee machine on a daily basis? The manual says that it adds minerals to the water. Is that enough or would one need to add more?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> David, would you recommend those for filling up the coffee machine on a daily basis? The manual says that it adds minerals to the water. Is that enough or would one need to add more?


I would personally add some extra sodium bicarb to bring the TDS from their claimed 20-30 up to around 70ppm for use in the Coffee machine and as it comes for tea or topping up an espresso for an Americano. This does 2 things.

1. Buffer to raise ph and keep it stable, quite important if you have copper boilers (it also adds a very thin layer that doesn't build up

2. Allows your taste buds to work correctly, as they rely on ions to help flavour (it's why salt reduces the bitterness of coffee, or enhances the flavour of things like chocolate and caramel etc..)

If it were me I would go with the Osmio system for all water including drinking water. At the moment I have a 5 stage RO system (pumped) under counter in the utility room, and* I am thinking of replacing it with the Osmio system myself.* I will get a cupboard back, and be able to remove the water boiler and big water container from the kitchen. So the effect in the kitchen is space neutral. it also uses an instantaneous ceramic heating cartridge for the 85C or 100C water, although I doubt the 100C water comes out at more than 92C. So it's going to be very energy efficient. These type of systems didn't exist 5 years ago (or they were not very good and needed a drain pipe into the sink etc..), if they had, I probably would have gone this way then.

I also have a still, but I don't really like the taste of the distilled water as it always seems to have a slight taints from the volatiles and it's a lot of hassle....so it got relegated to the garage. I would never go back to bottled or tap water for drinking, because you only ever find out about a problem too late (like 6 months later). Machines really love Treated RO water and I simply don't get the range of problems people do with sensors, vacuum breakers, heating elements, water marks etc...

One other thing, I do have a whole house water softener and this sort of system works even better on softened water! It's also all about convenience, water, kettle, container all in one. Technically it seems one of the best solutions on the market, I have seen some others which filter 4 litres to about 1.5 or 2 ltr. The design of this system is clever enough to recycle the water through until it drops to a preset level, making the minimum premeate waste that can be used for washing or the garden, so not down the drain like my current system. The last thing I like is all 4 filers are replaced every 6 months, so it all keeps nice and sterile inside. It's not cheap, but it is convenient.

P.S. The reason why I am considering a counter top system is because of the difficulties with keeping an under counter RO system sterile, worries about leaks and the fact that many leak when you change the cartridges and become a major ballache.


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> One of the options might be to change the Britta filter more often and try passing the water through the jug more than once.


Meant to quote this earlier but forgot - be careful passing through a filter jug multiple times. You really run the risk of increasing acidity of the water and causing some corrosion.

I ran an experiment with a brita filter and my mucky london tap water, kept passing it through a few times and the tds reading stabilised around 120-150 (can't remember exactly, higher than I'd like it anyway) but the ph kept decreasing. I managed to get it as low as 4.5 after passing it through half a dozen or so times. Out of interest I tasted the water and it was certainly acidic and not something you'd really want to use for anything. I've heard of others getting into trouble with just one pass from a filter jug (not as low as that however) so it's worth experimenting and measuring. A book of litmus papers is really cheap but I use a ph pen designed for aquariums which is easier to read.

To understand your tap water better I also recommend using a fish-tank titration kit such as:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Red-Sea-Foundation-R21510-Pro-Aquariums/dp/B004CS8EQS/

I find my water varies a bit from the water reports for my area and have actually found the water within an area to vary quite a bit. These kits don't give you the full story but they give you the high level stats for the ions that seem to matter for coffee. If you have a nice proportion GH:KH you can dilute with zero/distilled to get a nice coffee water, if the levels are out of whack you'll have a harder time getting nice coffee water without something drastic (London water seems to be particularly bad hence my current re-mineralisation solution)


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

My water tank was full of white stuff recently.

And I 100% only use this stuff, 17p for 2 litres Tesco CHASE SPRING water

Ca: 38

Mg: 12

Sodium: 8

Potassium: 2.5

Chloride: 12

Sulphate: 14

Ph: 7.8

Yet I found this https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2190779/Tesco-Asda-branded-immoral-selling-bottled-tap-water-declaring-origins.html which was also 17p for 2 litres.

Maybe it really is tap water bottled as spring water?

I thought about getting stuff like this, it comes in glass bottles https://www.acquapanna.com/ it's the same region as SanPellegrino who only do Sparkling.

Plastic bottles can transfer toxic chemicals into the water they hold...so you are drinking that. Over time it adds up...doesn't seem to be an issue with glass.

Of course, this would get expensive. For me now I only drink a latte every day maximum (and suffer the anxiety) so not too expensive for me.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

thesmileyone said:


> My water tank was full of white stuff recently.
> 
> And I 100% only use this stuff, 17p for 2 litres Tesco CHASE SPRING water
> 
> ...


Tap water is usually ground water, filtered & modified where necessary (increased pH, added chlorine etc.), if unadulterated you can call it natural spring water. It often comes from the same place.

Chase spring is hard water, typical of the UK, I would expect it to cause scale. It's not special, nor especially suited to espresso machines & boilers, neither is the vast majority of tap/bottled water. It is cheap for bottled water, but maybe 20x more expensive than what comes out of your tap.


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Tap water is usually ground water, filtered & modified where necessary (increased pH, added chlorine etc.), if unadulterated you can call it natural spring water. It often comes from the same place.
> 
> Chase spring is hard water, typical of the UK, I would expect it to cause scale. It's not special, nor especially suited to espresso machines & boilers, neither is the vast majority of tap/bottled water. It is cheap for bottled water, but maybe 20x more expensive than what comes out of your tap.


Thank you. Excuse my ignorance!

Do you know any not-too-expensive sources of soft water spring water?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Waitrose Essential Lockhills - 2.3p to 2.4p/100mL


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Tesco Ashbeck & Volvic are also ok (if anything they're alittle too soft).


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)




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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)




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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> I would personally add some extra sodium bicarb to bring the TDS from their claimed 20-30 up to around 70ppm for use in the Coffee machine and as it comes for tea or topping up an espresso for an Americano. This does 2 things.
> 
> 1. Buffer to raise ph and keep it stable, quite important if you have copper boilers (it also adds a very thin layer that doesn't build up
> 
> ...


Hi Dave been reading the above, I am purchasing the system above, would you recommend just using sodium bicarbonate to raise the ph or ph drops, also does the sodium bicarbonate raise the TDS in the RO Water, been that long since I was at school, should have paid more attention in chemistry classes!!!!

I have a Profitec 600 Dual Boiler and I am sure that the boilers are stainless steel so I am assuming that nothing else is needed to get the water right, open to your thoughts, although having read above I think I have answered my own question, DERRRRR.


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

mark8805 said:


> Hi Dave been reading the above, I am purchasing the system above, would you recommend just using sodium bicarbonate to raise the ph or ph drops, also does the sodium bicarbonate raise the TDS in the RO Water, been that long since I was at school, should have paid more attention in chemistry classes!!!!


All else being equal adding bicarb will raise tds and raise ph (make the water more alkaline). The impact on alkalinity should be negligible unless you really add a lot of it, I wouldn't worry too much. For the tds I'd just do it to taste and a basic tds meter but you could calculate it if you are targeting a specific recipe.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MildredM said:


>


Sadly, those figures are out of date & relate to the previous Waitrose Stretton Hills water. Lockhills is 20mg/L Ca, 6mg/L Mg, 60mg/L bicarbonate, 130mg/L TDS, pH 6.7. A bit more hardness & a bit more buffer.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Sadly, those figures are out of date & relate to the previous Waitrose Stretton Hills water. Lockhills is 20mg/L Ca, 6mg/L Mg, 60mg/L bicarbonate, 130mg/L TDS, pH 6.7. A bit more hardness & a bit more buffer.


Their online info is obviously out of date. Thanks for pointing it out.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

From the bottle today.


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

So for the purposes of keeping a machine as scale free as possible is my best choice Waitrose Lockhills or Volvic? And is one likely to produce better tasting coffee over another because of the mineral makeup or is taste in that context purely subjective?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

salty said:


> So for the purposes of keeping a machine as scale free as possible is my best choice Waitrose Lockhills or Volvic? And is one likely to produce better tasting coffee over another because of the mineral makeup or is taste in that context purely subjective?


Volvic should keep you scale free, but Lockhills perfectly matches common specs for ideal boiler water. Both can produce good tasting coffee, preference would be subjective & you have the capacity to impact the flavour of the coffee much more than switching between these 2 waters. Lockhills is cheaper.


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Volvic should keep you scale free, but Lockhills perfectly matches common specs for ideal boiler water. Both can produce good tasting coffee, preference would be subjective & you have the capacity to impact the flavour of the coffee much more than switching between these 2 waters. Lockhills is cheaper.


Great thanks Mark - I'll switch back to Lockills then. Much appreciated

Tim


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

Since people are asking about which water to use, I'll post a quick water 101 summarising what I've learned along the way on my water journey. I'm not a self-claimed expert, I'm not a chemist, etc. so I'm not claiming this is error free, I also found all this stuff from other sources I didn't discover any of this myself (bar my taste notes) - all credit goes to the original authors!

Some calculations:

First things first lets look at the mineral composition of the bottled water, these are presented as mg/L or ppm (equivalent measures) but this is not particularly useful for our purposes. We'll convert numbers into "CaCO3 equivalent" that is for each mineral what amount of CaCO3 (calcium carbonate) does that correspond to for a similar hardness. This is quite simple to do, we are only really concerned with 3 minerals: calcium, magnesium and bicarbonate. The other minerals matter less (notes on those to follow at the end). To convert these to CaCO3:

Mg - multiply mg/L by 4.12

Ca - multiply mg/L by 2.50

Bicarb - multiply mg/L by 0.82

Scaling:

We can now look at an approximate LI formula to work out whether the scaling properties of the water. To do this we use the formula:

LI* = 13.12*log(T +273) +log(H) +2.465*log(A) -log(max(A,H))/10 -39.61

(Other versions exist that vary slightly, they are all approximations)

In this formula:

T is temperature in celcius

H is the sum of the Mg and Ca as CaCO3 (from previous step)

A is the bicarb as CaCO3 (from previous step)

If LI* 0 then scaling can occur. If you plug in some numbers you'll see that LI* increases with T so you can find out at which temperature the water will deposit scaling. If LI*

More advanced scaling approximation:

If you want to get really technical you can approximate the amount of scaling (x) using the equilibrium formula:

0.9*log(H - x) + 2.465*log(A - x) - 39.61 + 13.12*log(T + 273) = 0

If you vary x until the equality holds (e.g. use goal seek in excel) x will represent scale deposits. If x

Ph:

Ph can cause corrosion issues which are worse than scaling, if you have corrosion you typically can't "un-do" it (you can always descale). Moreover dipping a ph pen or litmus paper in water doesn't always give the full story - to take an extreme example measure the ph of fizzy water and it'll read acidic but this acidity will "boil off" when the water is heated. Instead we can approximate the equilibrium ph which will give a better indication. We can approximate this with the formula:

pHeq = 1.465*log(A) + 4.54

Where A is as before.

The eagle-eyed will notice this does not hold for A = 0 - it is an approximation that holds for more "reasonable" mineral levels. You want pHeq to be between 6 and 8. Ideally between around 6.5-7.

Other considerations:

Chloride ions can also cause corrosion. La Marzocco recommends an mg/L of less than 30 for corrosion protection. (Note this is mg/L not CaCO3 equivalent).

What about taste?

Taste is a subjective thing, there's no real "right" answers to produce "tasty" coffee - to a large extent it depends on the coffee you're using as the roaster will be roasting to the water they use. Personally I find the following makes a tasty water (subject to other considerations above):



Ratio of H:A as 2:1


Ratio of Ca:Mg (as CaCO3) roughly 1:1

20


But others have VASTLY different preferences. I also dislike having too much stuff that isn't bicarb/Mg/Ca in my water so I look for as low as possible of everything else to hit those numbers.

For brewed/filter coffee you don't really need to worry as much about scale/corrosion as it's cheap/easy to fix a kettle! So you can try a wider range of things and see what you like (I find that I like water that is also suitable for an espresso machine for taste reasons anyway).


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Power Freak said:


> To convert these to CaCO3:
> 
> Mg - multiply mg/L by 4.12
> 
> ...


I thought you multiplied the bicarb by 0.82 to get alkalinity as CaCO3?

"Well, here is the trick.If you pH is less than about 8.4, just multiple the Alkalinity as of CaCO3 by 1.22 to convert to HCO3-. We assume that all alkalinity present in the solution is as HCO3-. Which is true in most cases as HCO3- is truly most dominant component of alkalinity in natural water.

So, for example, if we have 100 mg/L Alkalinity as of CaCO3, we have -

HCO3- mg/L = 100 x 1.22 = 122 mg/L HCO3 in the system."

from http://www.coalgeology.com/alkalinity-as-of-caco3-to-as-of-hco3-practical-guide-on-unit-conversion/34/


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

I use a compact RO unit (3-stage) and attach it to my shower when I need to use it. I don't have particularly high water pressure (2.6bar) so I went with a low-pressure membrane. I get around 10-12 liters output in 1 hour. I fill several 5L jugs at a time and then this lasts me for a few weeks before I have to fill them again. I haven't found a cheaper or more convenient solution so far. Some water is water is wasted of course (about 3x the amount you are filling - but it's about same as taking an extra shower, if you have higher water pressure this should be less) but the filters themselves only need changing after 3-4 years and the unit itself cost only about £50.

The output TDS is around 25ppm. When making drinks I mix about 20% tap water to take it to around 80-90 or sometimes I don't add any tap water at all.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

MWJB said:


> I thought you multiplied the bicarb by 0.82 to get alkalinity as CaCO3?/QUOTE]
> 
> That is my understanding of it.
> 
> ...


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

MWJB said:


> I thought you multiplied the bicarb by 0.82 to get alkalinity as CaCO3?
> 
> "Well, here is the trick.If you pH is less than about 8.4, just multiple the Alkalinity as of CaCO3 by 1.22 to convert to HCO3-. We assume that all alkalinity present in the solution is as HCO3-. Which is true in most cases as HCO3- is truly most dominant component of alkalinity in natural water.
> 
> ...


You are correct, my bad! I was looking at the wrong formula on my water spreadsheet (looking at carbonate instead of bicarbonate)


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

Step21 said:


> MWJB said:
> 
> 
> > I thought you multiplied the bicarb by 0.82 to get alkalinity as CaCO3?/QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

mark8805 said:


> Hi Dave been reading the above, I am purchasing the system above, would you recommend just using sodium bicarbonate to raise the ph or ph drops, also does the sodium bicarbonate raise the TDS in the RO Water, been that long since I was at school, should have paid more attention in chemistry classes!!!!
> 
> I have a Profitec 600 Dual Boiler and I am sure that the boilers are stainless steel so I am assuming that nothing else is needed to get the water right, open to your thoughts, although having read above I think I have answered my own question, DERRRRR.


Just Sodium Bicarb will do what you want.

http://coffeetimex.wikidot.com/ro-water-copper-corrosion


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> I would personally add some extra sodium bicarb to bring the TDS from their claimed 20-30 up to around 70ppm for use in the Coffee machine and as it comes for tea or topping up an espresso for an Americano. This does 2 things.
> 
> 1. Buffer to raise ph and keep it stable, quite important if you have copper boilers (it also adds a very thin layer that doesn't build up
> 
> ...


Dave, I have just got the Osmiowater RO system, have not checked the ph level yet, if the ph is low as expected what is the ratio of Bicarbonate to bring the level back to 7, for example in a 1 litre jug of the RO water with a ph of 6.5 and TDS at 20-30 ppm or is it just keep adding a little at a time and keep testing?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

mark8805 said:


> Dave, I have just got the Osmiowater RO system, have not checked the ph level yet, if the ph is low as expected what is the ratio of Bicarbonate to bring the level back to 7, for example in a 1 litre jug of the RO water with a ph of 6.5 and TDS at 20-30 ppm or is it just keep adding a little at a time and keep testing?


Get a business card, cut a 5mm wide strip the length of the card, then mark a horizontal line 5mm from the bottom and fold to 90 degrees (as per the Wiki). With as much Bicarb as you can get on that little scoop you just made....add it to 1 litre of RO water (obviously after it comes out of the machine). *This should be enough for now, until I finish my testing of the unit.* Remember also that they might say 5 litres through, but it's more like 15 litres through till it all tastes normal to me and the antibacterials are all out of the filters etc... Only once I had put that through does it now all taste fine.

I had to bring my Ph meter back into service after storage and rehydrate it with a KCL solution, but it's all working again. So I am ready to start proper testing. Remember Sodium Bicarb is a buffer salt, so adding more won't make it more alkaline, but will allow it to buffer ph for longer. It's also not harmful in the least to add it to the water, especially in the quantities we're talking about.

I didn't realise you were going to move so soon, but if it makes you feel any more confident....I'm actually loving the unit! it seems to work exactly as I expected.

Dave


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> Get a business card, cut a 5mm wide strip the length of the card, then mark a horizontal line 5mm from the bottom and fold to 90 degrees (as per the Wiki). With as much Bicarb as you can get on that little scoop you just made....add it to 1 litre of RO water (obviously after it comes out of the machine). *This should be enough for now, until I finish my testing of the unit.* Remember also that they might say 5 litres through, but it's more like 15 litres through till it all tastes normal to me and the antibacterials are all out of the filters etc... Only once I had put that through does it now all taste fine.
> 
> I had to bring my Ph meter back into service after storage and rehydrate it with a KCL solution, but it's all working again. So I am ready to start proper testing. Remember Sodium Bicarb is a buffer salt, so adding more won't make it more alkaline, but will allow it to buffer ph for longer. It's also not harmful in the least to add it to the water, especially in the quantities we're talking about.
> 
> ...


Dave, thanks for your prompt answer, I am sure I have read on here, maybe from you, the business card thing, will do that and let you know how I get on. The RO unit is a fabulous piece of kit, water at different temps or room temp for filling your espresso machine.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Power Freak said:


> Step21 said:
> 
> 
> > - typically Mg and Ca will measure lower on a TDS meter than in reality..
> ...


----------



## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

mark8805 said:


> Dave, I have just got the Osmiowater RO system, have not checked the ph level yet, if the ph is low as expected what is the ratio of Bicarbonate to bring the level back to 7, for example in a 1 litre jug of the RO water with a ph of 6.5 and TDS at 20-30 ppm or is it just keep adding a little at a time and keep testing?


Don't know about you Dave but the machine is a top quality made product and then you come to the Drip Plate!! Mine is very lose fitting so much so that I contacted their Customer Service and they confirmed that it is only lose fitting, also on the underside of the plate there is a dab of white rubberised stuff, if that is there to make it nonslip, then they have failed, would be interested to know if yours is the same?


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

@DavecUK when you say the best way is to get everything out of the water and start with a blank slate, would that mean OUR water would be exactly the same as YOURS and is it then going to taste of what I put back in, be it bicarbonate or whatever? I'm worried if I get the Osmiowater it will be great for the kettle and L-R but I won't enjoy it for drinking water. Whatever I tried adding back to my distilled water I really didn't like the taste just as a drink of ice cold water.

Secondly, regarding the Osmio, is the boiling water really that? Boiling enough for a pot of tea? I like that side of it, in theory. Not using a kettle at all.

Here is where I am at now. I like the Harrogate still for drinking, it's medium hard, and for now the 10ltr box with tap sitting in the fridge reduces us to zero plastic drinking bottles (just a cardboard box plus the plastic insert and tap which is still a good deal of waste. I'm not sure yet how much of it can be recycled). Then Lockhills and Volvic for the L-R - it results in a bottle every other day. And the Brita jug for the kettle, changing the filter every 2 weeks produces that chunk of plastic waste.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I'm reading (and monitoring) this thread with great interest.

For me, I currently use Ashbeck for espresso. My consumption is low however. 1 litre of water would last me around 6 days. So, given the usage, I'm not sure whether it will be right device for me, as everyone else in the household seems to be happy drinking straight tap water. I'm not particularly bothered, but won't buy one just for my exclusively usage.

Edit: if it can boil water to near 100C (and not just heat up to circa 90C) then I'd have a strong use case to replace the kettle.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

mark8805 said:


> Don't know about you Dave but the machine is a top quality made product and then you come to the Drip Plate!! Mine is very lose fitting so much so that I contacted their Customer Service and they confirmed that it is only lose fitting, also on the underside of the plate there is a dab of white rubberised stuff, if that is there to make it nonslip, then they have failed, would be interested to know if yours is the same?


Yes the drip plate is a simple 2 piece plastic part that comes apart for cleaning/draining and as you say simply butts up against the machine. I can actually see where the design had a sort of grooved fitting if you look that suggested they tried a drip tray that slotted in and was held (look at the machine/tray) and you will see what I mean. I wonder if there were concerns about it breaking off, so they decided on something that simply pushed up against it. I can see that if someone was careless and this was clip fixed, it could easily snap at the fixing. The dab of rubberised stuff is to fill the slot which was meant to be placed over a fitting, not make it non slip.

I personally think a magnet would have been a good method to give it a little hold against the machine, but still easy to pull away. I have a Jug that I need to fill for my mum and that fits nicely under the spout when I move the drip tray away, so I am appreciative of it being easy to move, but a magnetic hold might have been good. I'll be honest the loose fit doesn't bother me hugely, it does the job it's meant to do and for the way I use the system it's convenient that it's not firmly attached. I have a small square of grip mat which I actually placed under the tray just to test and it gives a very pleasing result. So you may want to try a small square cut to size so you can't see it when under the tray. I did this because I placed felts under the grippy rubber feet to make it very easy to slide around for refilling the tank and it bought the tray up by the thickness of the felts so it matched height of the unit perfectly

P.S. I do have some sticky foam rubber strip which I might try sticking on the underside of my drip tray as an alternate method....I'll let you know how it goes..


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MildredM said:


> @DavecUK when you say the best way is to get everything out of the water and start with a blank slate, would that mean OUR water would be exactly the same as YOURS and is it then going to taste of what I put back in, be it bicarbonate or whatever? I'm worried if I get the Osmiowater it will be great for the kettle and L-R but I won't enjoy it for drinking water. Whatever I tried adding back to my distilled water I really didn't like the taste just as a drink of ice cold water.
> 
> Secondly, regarding the Osmio, is the boiling water really that? Boiling enough for a pot of tea? I like that side of it, in theory. Not using a kettle at all.
> 
> Here is where I am at now. I like the Harrogate still for drinking, it's medium hard, and for now the 10ltr box with tap sitting in the fridge reduces us to zero plastic drinking bottles (just a cardboard box plus the plastic insert and tap which is still a good deal of waste. I'm not sure yet how much of it can be recycled). Then Lockhills and Volvic for the L-R - it results in a bottle every other day. And the Brita jug for the kettle, changing the filter every 2 weeks produces that chunk of plastic waste.


I didn't see this earlier....

1. If we both used the Osmio water system yes our output water would be the same (as it would if we both used RO). I said specifically the Osmio, because of the remineralisation cartridge (something I will talk more about in my review)

2. I have a distillation unit (which I no longer use) and the water a distillation unit produces doesn't taste the same as RO and is not nice for drinking. This isn't because it's distilled per say, but because of the mechanics/process used to achieve it by the units that were/are on sale. Mine actually needed a special container with an activated charcoal bag to try and remove the funny taste. This taste is caused by the volatiles that outgass along with the water and then seem to taint the condensate again.

I have also known people try to drink water purified with a lab quality filter column and ion exchange resin for producing pure water (when I was at Uni I tried it), my god does that taste awful. Again not because it's distilled, but because the process to introduce it introduces some taint. if you had absolutely pure water, it has no taint.

They say to run 5 litres through the Osmio before using it for drinking water and I am sure that is fine for getting the antibac storage solutions mostly out of the membrane and filters. Personally I could still detect that taste up to around 15-20 litres. It was progressively decreasing though, one of the downfalls of being a supertaster I am afraid...but better than my better halves 15 taste buds. The water from the unit now is not tainted at all, tastes very good indeed and at least as good (actually slightly better) as my existing older under counter RO unit.

Adding bicarb as a buffer in the tiny amounts I suggest will absolutely not impact the taste of water at all and you will never detect it (guaranteed). In fact, you may be able to add less as the remineralisation cartridge (very light touch) does stop the ph going as acidic to some extent. You will definitely be able to use the water from the unit for all drinking and machines with no mucking about using different methods. Doreen drinks mainly hot water and Chinese tea, the kids room temperature water, me I like iced water. None of us are having any problems with taste.

We used to use a water boiler (electric air pot type thing, used in all oriental households). This never got the water hot enough, and I was always reboiling the water within it, not great when often it had 3 or 4 litres inside. My elderly mother uses a Breville hot cup (not the basic model) for safety and makes all her tea with that. I can confidently say the Osmio I'm using is hotter than either of the previous systems mentioned. The hot water leaves the spout itself at 92-93C, so yes hot enough for tea/americanos etc.. The only thing I do is run a little hot water out first to get any cooler water out and warm the heater, that 30 ml makes a big difference as it's not part of the hot water in my drink. I use that 30 ml to warm a cup. So unless you believe in absolutely boiling water straight from the kettle on your tea, then you should be fine.

What I would say is for people to be a bit canny about ordering...This is because although they said to me ah we do affiliate marketing (for which I told them I was absolutely not interested because i don't monetise anything I do), I think in a forum where people could organise to get the deals...it's a hassle. So my suggestion to them is going to be to offer a forum code or deal (without all the creative marketing offers). The difficulty will be of persuading them to do that and not have the general public at large take advantage of it I guess. If that's the case then the forum could amongst ourselves organise a referral system so it's members benefit. e.g. 1 unit has been ordered already by a forum member, if 2 members had got together, they could have both benefited from cheaper units if they live close enough to have a single delivery address, or I think a free set of cartridges if one member recommends another who buys. Both offers are probably mutually exclusive. So if @mark8805 recommends you, then he and you both will get free set of 4 filter cartridges, that extra set saves you £55.

P.S. With plastic bottles, I don't know if people realise, but 2 important things. Ideally the caps must be off and the bottle label removed (often a ring of printed soft polymer). If this is not done, in most cases they cannot be recycled and go to landfill! In fairness a lot of them end up in landfill regardless, because if the waste when it arrives at the recycling centre is deemed too contaminated (e.g. other non recyclables in it, such as tertrapacks etc.. above a certain level, and they can reject it (all of it goes to landfill), but the recycling centre still get paid. All people can do (if they can afford to do so) is minimise their environmental impact as much as is reasonable and fits their lifestyle/circumstances. Recycling is partly a cost of failure. I hate excessive packaging with a passion and actually don't buy products that have it.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

^^^^ thank you very much for all this information @DavecUK


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

@DavecUK I hate your reviews makes me spend!! but water makes me gag, I really can taste it, so cheaper saving is good but I am going to await your review


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Jony said:


> @DavecUK I hate your reviews makes me spend!! but water makes me gag, I really can taste it, so cheaper saving is good but I am going to await your review


I try not to make people spend and I still say it's expensive, but a super convenient item, green and not water wasteful. If and only if people are happy to spend that much money should they do it. People who are cash strapped and are needing the money to cover other things, should leave saving the planet to those who can better afford it, especially as they are probably creating more of a problem..

Take greener energy, everyone is paying the cost of renewables and carbon capture...to my simple minded way of thinking, the more energy you use the more of this levy you should pay and for low users they shouldn't pay any levy. in this way those who can most afford it and use most of it pay for it to be greener. it's like VAT at 20% (or other rates) on everything we buy. It's a relatively low portion of a Chairmans salary and a very large % of a poor persons salary compared to a wealthy person. It used to be purchase tax a levy on luxury goods tax, but VAT encompasses so much it's quite a retrograde tax and impacts the poor far more than the well off. If I had my way, essentials would be VAT free e.g. food, basic cars below a certain value, insurance, clothing under a certain value, shoes under a certain value. Essentially to try to remove the burden of VAT almost completely for low earners.

P.S. Of course for most this is a high end coffee forum for people who can afford it.........


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

MildredM said:


> @DavecUK when you say the best way is to get everything out of the water and start with a blank slate, would that mean OUR water would be exactly the same as YOURS and is it then going to taste of what I put back in, be it bicarbonate or whatever? I'm worried if I get the Osmiowater it will be great for the kettle and L-R but I won't enjoy it for drinking water. Whatever I tried adding back to my distilled water I really didn't like the taste just as a drink of ice cold water.
> 
> Secondly, regarding the Osmio, is the boiling water really that? Boiling enough for a pot of tea? I like that side of it, in theory. Not using a kettle at all.
> 
> Here is where I am at now. I like the Harrogate still for drinking, it's medium hard, and for now the 10ltr box with tap sitting in the fridge reduces us to zero plastic drinking bottles (just a cardboard box plus the plastic insert and tap which is still a good deal of waste. I'm not sure yet how much of it can be recycled). Then Lockhills and Volvic for the L-R - it results in a bottle every other day. And the Brita jug for the kettle, changing the filter every 2 weeks produces that chunk of plastic waste.


The britta cartridges can be recycled. IIRC Robert Dyas is one of the drop off points.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> The britta cartridges can be recycled. IIRC Robert Dyas is one of the drop off points.


Brita have a recycling option in certain retail outlets but it is not clear what portion of their filters are actually recycled or how environmentally beneficial this is. I know making them/transporting them is the equivalent of about 2.5kg of carbon per filter! I looked hard for details of what the rcycling process involves and Brita seemed rather shy about telling us anything, unusual if they have a great marketing story.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Brita have a recycling option in certain retail outlets but it is not clear what portion of their filters are actually recycled or how environmentally beneficial this is. I know making them/transporting them is the equivalent of about 2.5kg of carbon per filter! I looked hard for details of what the rcycling process involves and Brita seemed rather shy about telling us anything, unusual if they have a great marketing story.


Yeah it's far from perfect but still better than sending them to landill/incineration if you're using them.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> The britta cartridges can be recycled. IIRC Robert Dyas is one of the drop off points.


Some Argos stores too. But it's the making of them to start with, for something with such a short life they seem fairly heavy duty plastic. And then I'm unsure exactly how they ARE recycled.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@DavecUK, on the Osmio website they say they, if you live in very hard water area, then the cartridges would need to be replaced more frequently. For the unlucky ones living around the Thames Valley, would a more frequent change be required?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @DavecUK, on the Osmio website they say they, if you live in very hard water area, then the cartridges would need to be replaced more frequently. For the unlucky ones living around the Thames Valley, would a more frequent change be required?


It depends on 3 factors; how hard is the water, how you use the system and whether you have a whole house water softener. RO systems with softened water are a match made in heaven and the membrane will usually last a lot longer. my current under counter membrane is 3 or 4 years old and still going strong. If the water is really hard like mine and you don't have a softener, you could just pour out and replace the water in the main tank when 1.5 litres remains instead of 1 litre. If you do that you should get the 6 months out of the membrane. obviously it's approximate, because you would have to do the math. it's unfortunate (but I suppose complicated), that the low water detection can't be set to 2 or 3 settings for just how much waste you want to leave. however the MK1 human eyeball will do the job, you always have it with you, it uses no power and doesn't often break down...if it does you even have a spare.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MildredM said:


> Some Argos stores too. But it's the making of them to start with, for something with such a short life they seem fairly heavy duty plastic. And then I'm unsure exactly how they ARE recycled.


they are also a ballache to use, not very effective and probably quite expensive if you change them every week or two.

As I think a Brita filter you can't wash must not be very nice after 1 month, or work very well.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I just measured my water hardness with one of those fish tank strips:

General Hardness: greater than 14 german degrees (249 ppm)

Calcium Carbonate Hardness: 15 german degrees (267 ppm)

According to the Osmio specs, that's just slightly above the recommended limit.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I just measured my water hardness with one of those fish tank strips:
> 
> General Hardness: greater than 14 german degrees (249 ppm)
> 
> ...


You will be fine...so what if the filter only lasts 5 months, or you have to change the water when there is 1.3 litres left rather than 1 litre...no biggie


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Having done this before, I went to my water board website, put in postcode to see this result

Slightly Hard

at 45 mg/l as calcium

that has changed a little since I last did it. Is this change normal. It then gave me a very detailed report, that I did not understand any of!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> You will be fine...so what if the filter only lasts 5 months, or you have to change the water when there is 1.3 litres left rather than 1 litre...no biggie


Thank you. David, if it's no bother, would you mind explaining how changing the water at 1.3L rather than 1L left in the main tank can increase the life of the membrane please? I watched the video on their website but I can't picture what you are describing in my head. I'm sure it would become very clear if I see that in the flesh, but would be great to understand the principle before hand.

Thanks again.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> Having done this before, I went to my water board website, put in postcode to see this result
> 
> Slightly Hard
> 
> ...


Thanks for this! I checked online and looks like the fish tank strips measurements were not far off from what Thames Water say on their website.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Thank you. David, if it's no bother, would you mind explaining how changing the water at 1.3L rather than 1L left in the main tank can increase the life of the membrane please? I watched the video on their website but I can't picture what you are describing in my head. I'm sure it would become very clear if I see that in the flesh, but would be great to understand the principle before hand.
> 
> Thanks again.


it will be in the review, but effectively you push what you can through the membrane by pressure, what won't go through and become pure goes across and out the bottom to keep the membrane washed so it doesn't clog with the dissolved solids left behind. This is then more concentrated water, goes back to the tank and it passes it back to the membrane to go through and the cycle keeps repeating. Until 1 litre is left of water with a very high concentration of dissolved solids. That's the bit you use for washing up, or washing the recycling.

It's this economy and responsible reuse of water (that other systems waste) until it can be filtered no more which reduces membrane life because the higher the concentration the shorter membrane life. By changing out the water at say 1.3 or 1.5 litres left, it's a lot less concentrated and the membrane lasts longer....it's just a little less green, but still massively better than conventional RO systems.

If it's still unclear, Imagine you tipped 500g of table salt into the 5 litre tank....then got 4 litres of pure water out.....that same amount of salt is still in the tank, but now dissolved in 1 litre of water and it's so concentrated that it's unlikely the pressure of the pump can squeeze any more fresh water through the membrane, because the "osmotic pressure the other way" (salt wanting to hold on to the water) is so high and the membrane starts to clog as it's also washed over with high concentration solution and not cleaned so effectively. If you decided to leave 2 litre in the tank and stop, you just halved the concentration and everything lasts longer.

P.S. Just remember it's not just about calcium and magnesium, but all the other dissolved stuff in water and dry residue numbers. It's not just hardness alone or the lack of it that kills machines.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Fully understood now @DavecUK! Thank you!


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Having done this before, I went to my water board website, put in postcode to see this result
> 
> Slightly Hard
> 
> ...


Ours has changed since I last checked too. I knew it had because the taps now need a quick once over with a spray descaler every other day.


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

double post!


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

I'm another that's watching this with interest.... shout if we are thinking about a forum buy.

Thanks Dave for your advice and time on this RO unit.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rom said:


> I'm another that's watching this with interest.... shout if we are thinking about a forum buy.
> 
> Thanks Dave for your advice and time on this RO unit.


No probs I was actually very interested to review it, as it's more than a bit of fun for me to tinker with this stuff when I am interested. especially as I can directly compare and contrast it with my existing installed 5 stage under counter unit and the other 4 units I have owned over the years.

Also an update about the drip tray on it. I thought it was made as a clip on and they had filled the gap with white rubbery stuff... and how a magnet would be good....no indeedy, there is a magnet there and it grips, just not super hard but enough to stop the tray sliding away all the time. I didn't notice before I put grip mat under the tray because I had the main unit raised up on 4mm felts fr sliding about easy and it wasn't all lined up.

I have got some very small powerful neodidlium magnets (when I find them), so I may see if (hoping here) the metal keep is on the unit and not in the tray. If it's on the main Osmio unit, I may be able to put my much stronger magnet in the tray!

P.S. I may have to go to the workshop and get them now otherwise I won't sleep for wondering.


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

Haha, I hope you're back from the workshop @DavecUK

also if anyone is thinking of buying one and wants to take up the deal for a cheaper price when buying two units I'd be interested. I'm based near Leicester but willing to meet 1/2 way ish..


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I've stuck those magnets onto something for safe keeping and bloody can't find em (I have around 19 of them). Fortunately I had some extra thin ones from another project using 18650 cells from years ago. I found both the tray and the case have magnets (obviously to give a bit more pull. So I added my neodidlium magnet to the case (it pulled itself on just fine) and that gave that little extra pull to the drip tray it needed. It's probably a hack best done by people once they get the unit. The little thin disc magnets can be got from ebay, I think i paid a pound or two for 10. I'll measure it exactly for the review.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Should have mentioned I was doing some man math, with a bit of a shock last night about how much my old undercounter RO system might actually be costing me now (and for the last 3 years). Our water (metered) costs a total of £4.30 per cubic metre (1000 litres), this is much more than the price I remember it as when we moved into the house almost 26 years ago. The waste water from the old RO system could be as little as 5 litres per litre of RO produced and as high as 10 litres per litre of RO. I'm going to measure it later!

Conservatively though we use 10-12 litres per day of RO water for drinking, beverages etc.. This shockingly means 22 to 43.8 cubic metres of water per year or...£94 - £188 per year of wasted water, in comparison for the same amount of water produced the little Osmio unit only makes £4.70 worth of waste water per year. This means at best an additional cost of £90 per annum in water waste each year for my other pumped "high efficiency" system and I still have to buy filters every 6 months, RO membrane every 2 years and replace the entire unit every 5 years....as well as all the hassle sterilising it. Suddenly 2 filter packs per year at £96 total doesn't seem to be too expensive at all. Plus the22 to 44 thousand litres of water that isn't going "literally" down the drain.

I've also done the man math for super hard water areas to work out how much water to leave in the tank before completely refreshing it in very high TDS areas, to achieve the projected 6 month filter life and will put that in the review...but it's in line with my guestimates (unless my math is wrong).


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## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

Rom said:


> Haha, I hope you're back from the workshop @DavecUK
> 
> also if anyone is thinking of buying one and wants to take up the deal for a cheaper price when buying two units I'd be interested. I'm based near Leicester but willing to meet 1/2 way ish..


 @Rom - That could work for me, I have a daughter living not so far from you in Melton Mowbray, and only a short way up the A1 from there myself - visit her fairly often. Has a buying group been established? Thanks also to Dave for the informative posts (again).


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

Melton is 30 miles from me so not too bad


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Power Freak said:


> All else being equal adding bicarb will raise tds and raise ph (make the water more alkaline). The impact on alkalinity should be negligible unless you really add a lot of it, I wouldn't worry too much. For the tds I'd just do it to taste and a basic tds meter but you could calculate it if you are targeting a specific recipe.


I have been testing my ro water with ph and hardness tests. No tds meter, just a drop test. I though the ro water would be more acidic but the ph is about 6.5. Adding 0.05 grams of bicarb per liter, ph is about 7, adding 0.1g is about 7.8. The water is very soft (of course), less than 1ºF.

I supose this water will be boiler safe but, should I add any kind of minerals to raise the hardness a little? Have read about adding mg salt.

Tap water is up to 40ºF here... We drink ro water but buy bottle water (about 6ºF) for the espresso machine. I'd like to get rid off all this plastic and take advantage of the ro system to make coffee as well.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

tocateclas said:


> I have been testing my ro water with ph and hardness tests. No tds meter, just a drop test. I though the ro water would be more acidic but the ph is about 6.5. Adding 0.05 grams of bicarb per liter, ph is about 7, adding 0.1g is about 7.8. The water is very soft (of course), less than 1ºF.
> 
> I supose this water will be boiler safe but, should I add any kind of minerals to raise the hardness a little? Have read about adding mg salt.
> 
> Tap water is up to 40ºF here... We drink ro water but buy bottle water (about 6ºF) for the espresso machine. I'd like to get rid off all this plastic and take advantage of the ro system to make coffee as well.


In my testing years ago I found you needed to add about 0.12g per litre to maintain a neutral or slightly alkaline ph, because the RO water continues to absorb CO2 over time.

http://coffeetimex.wikidot.com/ro-water-copper-corrosion


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> In my testing years ago I found you needed to add about 0.12g per litre to maintain a neutral or slightly alkaline ph, because the RO water continues to absorb CO2 over time.
> 
> http://coffeetimex.wikidot.com/ro-water-copper-corrosion


Do you mean the ph will be lower again if I let this water sit for say 24 hours?

Thank you, I'm testing ro+bicarb because of this article, it's very helpful. My concern is if this very very soft water will need a little bit of hardness adding some minerals, mg seems to be the right one. I'm not really concerned about corrosion as espresso machine has stainless steel boilers. I have no tds meter so I can check only total hardness and ph.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

tocateclas said:


> Do you mean the ph will be lower again if I let this water sit for say 24 hours?
> 
> Thank you, I'm testing ro+bicarb because of this article, it's very helpful. My concern is if this very very soft water will need a little bit of hardness adding some minerals, mg seems to be the right one. I'm not really concerned about corrosion as espresso machine has stainless steel boilers. I have no tds meter so I can check only total hardness and ph.


Yes, the ph will reduce for around 20 hours or so, but most of it happens in the first 3 or 4 hours. You have to remember this reduction is not huge, were talking of a ph around 6.5 and I think milk has a ph of 6.5 Certainly Bicarb is good because it acts as a buffer salt. It can't raise the ph beyond about 8.4, but can buffer for a long time to keep it neutral or above.

The addition of minerals is a moot point. if you believe, as i do that most taste is affected by ionic concentration, but not of specific cations e.g. the belief about calcium and magnesium specific taste receptors, then it doesn't matter very much if there is Sodium carbonate or calcium carbonate. My personal experience is always that the water from the tap is crap, has lots of stuff in it I don't want in my coffee e.g.Chlorine and that you can't do better than start with a clean slate (or as near as possible). Bottle water has the things within it and has other dissolved solids that are not Ca and Mg Carbonates and these other dissolved solids can be in significant amounts and form the total dry residue number when added on.

I know the cognoscenti have come up with water formulations, but they always seem to be selling us something., so it's difficult to know what to believe. I personally find pure RO with bicarb added in the amounts I recommend is fine, the Osmio I am using remineralises( puts Mg and Ca) back in the water in small amounts giving a TDS of 30-50 depending on amount of water run through and how long the unit has been idle (it has a final filter in the pure water exit stream). I have not noticed any major difference in taste of coffee, compared to my under counter 5 stage pumped RO system when I compared.

For me the issue is to not have to use Tap water, not negatively impact taste and to have almost no machine problems (because most problems are caused by poor water).

P.S. It would be interesting to see the results of blind taste testing on water formulation vs taste, as usually this stuff it all based around the use of scientific measurement tools, not human taste sensors.


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## Gabriele Conti (Oct 20, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> My personal experience is always that the water from the tap is crap, has lots of stuff in it I don't want in my coffee e.g.Chlorine and that you can't do better than start with a clean slate (or as near as possible)


I agree with this a lot, from my non-scientific point of view.

I have a simple "Laica" filter jug, and although I know it doesn't get rid of limescale, it seems to take a lot of crappy tasting stuff from tap.water.

Straight tap water is undrinkable in my place.

I can't afford a RO unit like the Osmio right now, so I was planning on testing a cheap water recipe, using bottled distilled water with added bicarb and epsom salt.

It would be very cheap, but then I read your posts about distilled water tasting crap because of volatiles etc...

This is referred only to the water you distill at home or also to supermarket bottled distilled water ?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Gabriele Conti said:


> I agree with this a lot, from my non-scientific point of view.
> 
> I have a simple "Laica" filter jug, and although I know it doesn't get rid of limescale, it seems to take a lot of crappy tasting stuff from tap.water.
> 
> ...


It's only when distilled at home, commercially produced stuff passes through special post filters and is also done differently for removal of volatiles. bottled Distilled will taste fine. You don't need to add Epsom salt and I personally wouldn't to preserve the coffee machine. If you use brewed and you feel it's going to taste better fine....but I don't think the Epsom salts are worthwhile.

Also, never worry about not being able to afford something and thus not being as green. *It's the people who can afford to be greener who should*. If money is tight, you have to do what you can. If that's about bottled distilled water, no problem. Just make sure you get that thin ring of polythene type label off the bottle and remove the lid when recycling.

P.S. No one will drink Tapwater in my house, the Kids have only ever had RO water and they hate the water from the tap.


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## Gabriele Conti (Oct 20, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> It's only when distilled at home, commercially produced stuff passes through special post filters and is also done differently for removal of volatiles. bottled Distilled will taste fine. You don't need to add Epsom salt and I personally wouldn't to preserve the coffee machine. If you use brewed and you feel it's going to taste better fine....but I don't think the Epsom salts are worthwhile.
> 
> Also, never worry about not being able to afford something and thus not being as green. *It's the people who can afford to be greener who should*. If money is tight, you have to do what you can. If that's about bottled distilled water, no problem. Just make sure you get that thin ring of polythene type label off the bottle and remove the lid when recycling.
> 
> P.S. No one will drink Tapwater in my house, the Kids have only ever had RO water and they hate the water from the tap.


Sorry, I didn't specify I'm trying this for brewed.

For espresso I have a simple Delonghi Dedica and for now I'm using the jug filtered water.

I agree with you with your "green theory", that's why I just try not to use bottled water. I just wanted to try the recipe out of curiosity.

BTW I don't know about the UK, but in Italy there's a couple of bottled water that uses biodegradable bottles (including label, excluding the cap). That's very good from a recycling point of view, but a little more expensive.

The RO unit is something I'll have in the future, almost for sure. It sounds as a healthy and reasonable investment for the future (expecially for when I'll have a real espresso machine at home).


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Sorry if it's already been posted, what is the water spec that comes out of this machine? I take it it isn't adjustable in any way?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I'm sure this will come on David's review, but:

The filters: are they proprietary design? Say that they company decides to discontinue the product or ceases to trade, will I endup with a non-functional very expensive gadget?

Changing the filters every 6 months will cost £110 per annum, so roughly £10 per month to run it on cold water.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

fluffles said:


> Sorry if it's already been posted, what is the water spec that comes out of this machine? I take it it isn't adjustable in any way?


It's not exactly adjustable, there is a small remineralisation/final polishing cartridge, gives water at around 25-50 TDS (average around 35), containing so Ca and Mg carbonate. I guess a marketing response (because of all the misinformation on the web about RO) and to help hold the ph down. however, I have some suggestions with the company which I already discussed and had some prototype empty cartridges delivered, because I had a few ideas for some things I think they should productise. One of those would be to address exactly the issue of some adjustment on specification of output water if possible. I won't go into any more details, because I need to discuss with the certain practicalities and also the exact chemical composition of the existing cartridge.



MediumRoastSteam said:


> I'm sure this will come on David's review, but:
> 
> The filters: are they proprietary design? Say that they company decides to discontinue the product or ceases to trade, will I endup with a non-functional very expensive gadget?
> 
> Changing the filters every 6 months will cost £110 per annum, so roughly £10 per month to run it on cold water.


I have no idea about the filters, they have been trading a while, so I assume it will be supported. Changing the filters will cost 96 per year if you buy them in sets of 2 and £86 per year if you buy in sets of 4, so again it may pay forum members to get together if they are local and stump up for 4 sets between them. *I wouldn't worry about the filter cost too much, because for me the cost of my under counter system waste water per annum (i'm on metered water) is more than the cost of a years worth of filters for the Osmio! *(that's without adding on the cost of my under counter system filter changes every 6 months and membrane change every 2 years)


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Thanks! I now need to convince the wife to replace the kettle. *


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Thanks! I now need to convince the wife to replace the kettle. *


My wife needed some convincing to replace the 4 litre electric water boiler, on all flipping day and always empty when I need it...requiring an annoying 15 minute wait for it to fill up. I stuck the Osmio on the counter, said use that not the hot water boiler.caught her later that day using the hot water boiler!!!

I said "I asked you to use the Osmio, I need to load test it" (her hot water consumption is even larger than the hot air I put out). I explained how it was easier and instant and saved energy blah blah....thought I was very convincing..... she just looked at me quietly and said "I was only using the water boiler, because it has 4 litres of hot water in it I didn't want to waste". That night the big hot water boiler was empty and hasn't been used since







everyone now uses the Osmio and I finally get instant hot water that's hot enough for tea.

Oh I just thought, if they ever went out of business and stopped making the cartridges, as the pipes in the system are standard, I would simply buy new fittings that take an easily available twist fit cartridge. The in tank particle filter I am not sure about, but I am sure I would come up with something If I had to.


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> if they ever went out of business


Hmm, this comment worries me a bit.. should it?


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

MildredM said:


> You are right, it IS 2 issues. For drinking, apart from chlorine, it's all the other crap I'm not sure I want to drink. And the way I feel now, I think cleaning the distiller is the lesser of two evils for the kettle water. As least I'm not stuffing plastic in the recycle bin . . .
> 
> It is Celtic sea salt. I looked into it and the one I got was meant to be a good mix of minerals suitable for adding to distilled water to put the minerals back. It's one of those damp, grey salts.
> 
> ...


Just as an aside here @MildredM Having worked in the water industry what "crap" do you think is in tap water? The UK has a very very good standard of normal drinking water, verging on the best in the world, it's enforced with strict standards too.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

ATZ said:


> Just as an aside here @MildredM Having worked in the water industry what "crap" do you think is in tap water? The UK has a very very good standard of normal drinking water, verging on the best in the world, it's enforced with strict standards too.


It was a bit of a sweeping statement . . .

I meant chemicals - a quick google brought up a comprehensive list - Liquified chlorine, Fluorosilicic acid, Aluminium sulphate, Calcium hydroxide, Sodium silica fluoride, other pharmaceuticals, weed killers that may have leeched into the supply, and loads more.

Yes, they may be under the allowed amount but I don't even want to think I'm drinking any, if I can help it.

I think reading that book by Norman Walker set me off looking into water years ago.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MildredM said:


> It was a bit of a sweeping statement . . .
> 
> I meant chemicals - a quick google brought up a comprehensive list - Liquified chlorine, Fluorosilicic acid, Aluminium sulphate, Calcium hydroxide, Sodium silica fluoride, other pharmaceuticals, weed killers that may have leeched into the supply, and loads more.
> 
> ...


What stops these things that leak into municipal supply aquifers, doing the same in bottled water sources?


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

MWJB said:


> What stops these things that leak into municipal supply aquifers, doing the same in bottled water sources?


No idea! Except I can't taste fluoride for starters


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Apparently mains water is subject to far higher standards of purity than bottled water. Rightly so, as it is everyone's default supply and people have little knowledge, little choice and a lot of trust. But mine is harder than Mike Tyson and tastes funnier than his opponent's ear. I can't remember the source but I seem to remember one of the big brands getting outed for excessive benzene in their bottled water. They were still under the limit for bottled, but way in excess of the permitted levels for mains water.

I'm still buying Lockhills. I don't know how it compares health wise, but it's better for the specific requirements of espresso. Unless of course I should start saving up for a counter top RO?

___

Eat, drink and be merry


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## Gabriele Conti (Oct 20, 2018)

My impression (not scientific of course) is that tubing in buildings has a lot to do with how tap water tastes.

In Italy also the quality checks on tap water are supposed to be very strict, but in many flats (mine included) tap water tastes like crap.

For drinking (and for filter brew to some extent) I've solved the issue with a simple filter jug: it removes the weird taste. Of course this filtered water is still too hard for an espresso machine.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

MildredM said:


> It was a bit of a sweeping statement . . .
> 
> I meant chemicals - a quick google brought up a comprehensive list - Liquified chlorine, Fluorosilicic acid, Aluminium sulphate, Calcium hydroxide, Sodium silica fluoride, other pharmaceuticals, weed killers that may have leeched into the supply, and loads more.
> 
> ...


There's cyanide in Apple seeds

There's formaldehyde in pears

Poison is ALWAYS in the dose with these sort of things. Would you drink water if we called it dyhydrogen monoxide?

Only about 10% of UK water supply is fluronated too.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

And there's MSG in broccoli but it doesn't make me ill !


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ATZ said:


> There's cyanide in Apple seeds
> 
> There's formaldehyde in pears
> 
> ...


I think it's completely fair to say that our tap water meets the current standards and is absolutely safe to drink unless there is a problem and we're told not to drink it for a while, as sometimes happens in the UK from time to time. The allowed levels of various bits and pieces in the water meet the standards they are meant to meet and the expert committees say that these things are not going to do us any harm.

* My own personal decision to use RO water was based around 4 things.*

1. The water is made microbiologically safe by adding chlorine and this amount varies often being a lot higher in summer (at least going by the taste of ours) Do I like the taste of chlorine...no not particularly

2. Do I believe that I will be told of a water problem before i drink the water, or after the fact. Knowing just how well government departments work and how large corporates look after us...no I don't have that level of confidence...the reason, I have opened the tap and brownish water has come out before, got a knock on the door and it wasn't the water board but a neighbour saying does your water look and smell funny?

3. Does tap-water in my area have that faint ditch-water smell about it...yes. Does my RO water have a smell or poor taste...no.

4. Lastly the expert panel got together and said all these things were safe up to certain levels in water, are they safe, are there things they don't even test for? I remember they said Asbestos was safe once, and Radium on clock dials, smoking was considered beneficial and the low fat diet is meant to help us lose weight. So forgive me for wanting as little contaminants as possible in my water...because that's what RO gives me.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> I think it's completely fair to say that our tap water meets the current standards and is absolutely safe to drink unless there is a problem and we're told not to drink it for a while, as sometimes happens in the UK from time to time. The allowed levels of various bits and pieces in the water meet the standards they are meant to meet and the expert committees say that these things are not going to do us any harm.
> 
> * My own personal decision to use RO water was based around 4 things.*
> 
> ...


Regards your points Dave

1. This is a question of taste and perfectly reasonable to remove. It's can easily be done with a Brita style filter or allowing water to sit in a big jug for a short period of time.

2. Having inspected many a water supply plant standards have moved on thanks to issues with this in the past. The plant that serves most of North Wales and the North West samples the river they abstract from twice daily for laboratory analysis and have continuous online monitoring system. They legally have to inform the regulator of any breach of standard immediately. These results are all public and externally audited. Brown tap water is usually as a result of a burst main or repair, not a treatment issue.

3. Smell again is a personal taste issue.

4. Health science has moved on pretty dramatically in the last 50years. We have established and solid science on most things typically found in tap water. The drinking water inspectorate enforce these standards very robustly (hundreds of thousands of tests per year) and it's a huge pro of living in the UK that we have such high quality drinking water freely available

http://www.dwi.gov.uk/about/annual-report/2017/index.html


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

MWJB said:


> What stops these things that leak into municipal supply aquifers, doing the same in bottled water sources?


Just returning to this. I am pretty sure there's no interaction between 'ground water' and the aquifer used by Harrogate bottled water. And also there is no chemical treatment either.

This doesn't make for an argument for bottled water of course, it was just a point I wanted to mention.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MildredM said:


> Just returning to this. I am pretty sure there's no interaction between 'ground water' and the aquifer used by Harrogate bottled water. And also there is no chemical treatment either.
> 
> This doesn't make for an argument for bottled water of course, it was just a point I wanted to mention.


Aquifers are ground water.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

MildredM said:


> Just returning to this. I am pretty sure there's no interaction between 'ground water' and the aquifer used by Harrogate bottled water. And also there is no chemical treatment either.
> 
> This doesn't make for an argument for bottled water of course, it was just a point I wanted to mention.


ALL surface waters (rivers) are connected to aquifers (groundwaters). The speed at which contaminates pass between them is dependant on the pathway and the geology in the area.

Ironically adding a borehole to abstract groundwater often adds a pathway for contaminants that would otherwise not be there, circumventing the journey of water that can take hundreds, sometimes thousands of years.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ATZ said:


> Regards your points Dave


As I said, it's a personal decision, right for me and one I took 15 years ago. It's not like I recently decided to change and am going on about water. I have been saying this for 15 years. If people want to use Brita style filters (although they don't seem to protect the espresso machines), that's great, if they want to use bottled water also great. each to their own. I don't even get all concerned about whether others should be eco warriors, it's another personal choice and often dictated by the ability to afford to be green sadly.

My points were in response to the taste issue, one of the key non taste drivers for me was the espresso machine, it virtually eliminates problems.

P.S. I did know brown water is a consequence of work on the pipes and soil contamination.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Aquifers are ground water.


I am not sure I would agree with that exactly.

All aquifers are replenished over time from the process of rainfall and groundwater replenishing the ground, but in the specific aquifers that produces the HS water there is no direct interaction between groundwater and water present as they are many meters underground and the numerous layers of different sandstone/ mud and other substrates below the surface acts like natures' comprehensive filter which, over the course of time, filters out nutrients and chemicals that may be present at the ground level.


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