# Sage



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Well, who is going to be the first to state they have placed an order then? The machine does not interest me so much as I cannot see circumstances ever making me go away from levers, discounting old age of course and the inability to control the lever! The grinder id=s different though at that price point. Hopefully next week will come and Cc will let us know. I suspect it will come out as quite capable against its peers, and by peers I mean up to and including everything to the Vario, but obviously will fall well short of anything bigger, although some of the gadgetry looks interesting. Also, just how well made is it since one or my Vario pet hates was the use of plastic so much!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

For newcomers , It would be great to have another kitchen friendly grinder In that price range that could be recommend for espresso . Like you I await the Coffee chap once over. It certainly has a lot of features that grinders costing more currently have ,but in the end it needs to deliver in the cup and be durable !


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I've got one of the dual boiler machines coming after the launch event for me to have a play with and to review from an upgraders and less well educated in coffee matters than Glenn point of view, will be interesting to see how it fits into my space challenged kitchen space, just ask C-squared if you don't belive me how little space I have lol.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Well, the Sage boys are certainly pushing the boat out! Be interesting to see the testers thoughts both on Espresso and grinder options. I might buy one of the grinders for a bit of fun. I have a Mignon here amongst others so can compare it directly to one of its competitors. Glenn can do the same with his Vario. I know it is nearly half the price of a Vario but i still think of them as being in the same part of the market in terms of being non-commercal, small and aimed firmly at the home user!


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Call me a snob or worse, but I wouldn't give a coffee machine by Heston Blu (whatever his name is) house room and I certainly wouldn't let him baby sit.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

dwalsh1 said:


> Call me a snob or worse, but I wouldn't give a coffee machine by Heston Blu (whatever his name is) house room and I certainly wouldn't let him baby sit.


If it wasn't for the fact that I know the Breville branded version has a pretty decent reputation then I wouldn't be interested in it, as far as I can tell it's a use his name for a fee kind of job as he uses capsule machines in his restaurants, which are places you would never find me wishing to dine at .


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Charlie, just how pushed for bench space are you?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Not as badly pushed as I was when I was talking to you about it BB, that plus seeing the machines there gave me an idea which resulted in http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?12297-My-new-old-set-up-or-Coffee-Corner-Reworked. Its just that the overall size of the kitchen is tiny, before I found that bench/table the only space I had was the top of the freezer. The bench is about 1200mm wide and 500 mm deep so with some repositioning I could get in quite a range of machines now, the only one I would really struggle with would be an L1 because of it's depth.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

The machine will easily take up the space covering the blue mat, and then some, at the same height of the Gaggia as a square

Please post a photo when you receive the machine

It is significantly larger than a classic


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Will do, the classic and the instant hot water dispenser are both sat on a large chopping board which can easily be moved, if I hadn't recently reorganised everything there is no way I could have fitted one in the kitchen anywhere.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have a serious question. I have been mulling this around in my head overnight, which is what i always do when I am considering something. In Australia, then Twin Boiler is around 1200 Oz dollars or £710. In the states, around $1200 or £710, yet here it is £1200.

The grinder to match, in Oz is around 300 dollars or £177, in America around $200 or £125, yet here £199.

Why?

What are we getting that they are not, apart from Hestons endorsement? That is not to say that these machines may not be capable in their own way. The espresso machine does not interest me at all, but the grinder does. to that extent, I have placed an order and paid for one, yesterday. It will be here next week I hope, then I can put it on the bench alongside the Mignon, which I where I see its competition. I will be looking at good points and bad points, but my ultimate comparisons will be in the cup, as in my humble opinion, it is that what counts the most. If it comes without shims, then they will be put in, so no concerns there. Aspects such as durability concern me a little but with a 2 year warranty that puts that to bed as well.

Let you know what happens next week


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The k10 not cutting the mustard?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

You are paying for hestons endorsement . Branding Items can add a lot , the royalty payment for using someone's name , is surprisingly high ( in my experience of branded designer names in my business ) . Heston will be top dollar In his field .

Other than that , uk retailers , have more taxes ( buisnes tax and vat , other stuff the local authorities make us pay for ), higher rents per sq metre than the USA and a deeper internet penetration that a lot of European countries . More people taking more of a slice of their pie ,higher prices .


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I think this version of the db has been pimped up a bit and has quite a few extra features. The previous model is on sale under a different brand name to the German market for 1150€


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> The k10 not cutting the mustard?


No, I am sick of it already and really hoping that I win the Mythos raffle:mad:


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

£450 is a big hike to explain away. The white Gloves bit must cost a bundle as well. This shows that the machine is aimed at the 'idiot' end of the market as anyone who has owned any espresso machine would rather save the cost of the White Gloves experience, open the box themselves and read the manual......like Glenn had to.....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> No, I am sick of it already and really hoping that I win the Mythos raffle:mad:


Only winding you up mate . We are all jealous of the fresh


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## rmcgandara (Feb 12, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> £450 is a big hike to explain away. The white Gloves bit must cost a bundle as well. This shows that the machine is aimed at the 'idiot' end of the market as anyone who has owned any espresso machine would rather save the cost of the White Gloves experience, open the box themselves and read the manual......like Glenn had to.....


1) maybe tax differences

2) Hestons Fee

3) Licensing fee (breville to Sage)

4) White Gloves installation

Not wanting to be the "devil's advocate" I think it is a bit over the top calling this a machine for the "idiot" end of the market.

lets put in perspective that it fares pretty well against the brewtus as per Glenn review, with this machine having a lot more gadgetry to play. The "only" really bad thing is the plastic feel.

the forum members have the possibility of a deal with expobar making it cheaper, but for the common joe it is in the same price bracket of £1100-1200.

I do like the E61 look so the design of this machine sets me back, but I have to say that it has a lot of nice features.

Not knowing what the white gloves actually give you I can not comment, but Glenn can probably get that information and compare it with how much a tailor training in your home costs.

Off course these services are for people that shop on John Lewis rather than in BB.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Another question - the parts in the machine , are they all industry standard / easy to source. Thats a big plus for the e61 assembly


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Another question - the parts in the machine , are they all industry standard / easy to source. Thats a big plus for the e61 assembly


That was one of the potential negatives but think Glenn will revisit this once he's seen inside the machine next week


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

The machine is perfect for a new barista. Its a bit harsh calling them idiots









New baristas are likely top benefit from the white gloves service

It will certainly reduce the restocking of items


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok hands up, exactly what is this white glove service we speak of ? Although not a new barista and therefore an idiot , I still qualify as a twit outside the coffee world









When I first typed that it came out as 'white love service ' imagine the outcry and questions that would have raised


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## rmcgandara (Feb 12, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ok hands up, exactly what is this white glove service we speak of ? Although not a new barista and therefore an idiot , I still qualify as a twit outside the coffee world
> 
> 
> 
> ...


from the website http://www.sageappliances.co.uk/whitegloveservice

they even teach you to make a few cappas









mind you that one of the advices of the people in this forum is that you should get someone to train or teach you how to get the best of your set up. maybe they just took this idea on board and are offering it to people. specially because you want to pay 1200 and make sure you are producing better coffee than a nespresso+aeroccino...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

rmcgandara said:


> from the website http://www.sageappliances.co.uk/whitegloveservice


Thanks ! Let's hope it's not dfk turning up." So you ordered this machine you idiot ...







"


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Thanks ! Let's hope it's not dfk turning up." So you ordered this machine you idiot ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And why not exactly! Let me qualify, anyone coming on here saying they wanted to buy their first machine and were going to jump straight in on £1200, would be an idiot. idiots are people who have too much money and no desire or experience to learn their craft. The machine is clearly aimed at these sort of people who buy from Amazon, John Lewis, Waitrose etc. What exactly is a Home Barista? Do you mean an idiot with no experience buying his first machine by chance? To call yourself a Barista, be it home, office or anything else suggests that you have a modicum of experience and knowledge, so would it not be easier to change the Home Barista title to learner? If it is a learner, then obviously he will benefit from White Gloves, otherwise no doubt he will be sticking tea bags in the pf as well!

The machine I am sure, is quite capable. I am not knocking it. I am suggesting that when you bring anything to the market you identify the group you wish to target, and when I see the combination of White Gloves, a lot of dosh, Heston, amazon etc etc, I think of the new entrant as opposed to the seasoned (idiot)!.

All said tongue in cheek, with no offence meant to idiots...well...maybe the odd one but thats another story


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Only winding you up mate . We are all jealous of the fresh


I am not.......


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> And why not exactly! Let me qualify, anyone coming on here saying they wanted to buy their first machine and were going to jump straight in on £1200, would be an idiot. idiots are people who have too much money and no desire or experience to learn their craft. The machine is clearly aimed at these sort of people who buy from Amazon, John Lewis, Waitrose etc. What exactly is a Home Barista? Do you mean an idiot with no experience buying his first machine by chance? To call yourself a Barista, be it home, office or anything else suggests that you have a modicum of experience and knowledge, so would it not be easier to change the Home Barista title to learner? If it is a learner, then obviously he will benefit from White Gloves, otherwise no doubt he will be sticking tea bags in the pf as well!
> 
> The machine I am sure, is quite capable. I am not knocking it. I am suggesting that when you bring anything to the market you identify the group you wish to target, and when I see the combination of White Gloves, a lot of dosh, Heston, amazon etc etc, I think of the new entrant as opposed to the seasoned (idiot)!.
> 
> All said tongue in cheek, with no offence meant to idiots...well...maybe the odd one but thats another story


I don't think that having £1200 to spend on your finest machine makes you an idiot...if you accept that you may end up with a £1200 machine eventually, then going straight in, with training, makes sense. Rather than a succession of machines...suffering losses in resale value along the way.

The real qualification for being entitled to a £1200 machine is simply having £1200 to spend on it, surely.


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

I can't see that there is a problem spending £1200 on a first machine, if you've got the money and that's what you want then why get called an idiot for spending that amount. There are bigger idiots out there than the people treating them selves to a £1200 espresso machine.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MW, I was being confrontational as I always am. If you are in a position to spend £1200, then you have the right to have whatever you want and so you are quite right. On this forum, a lot of newbies, myself included seek advice and start off with a Classic or similar and if they like the experience work their way up. Unfortunately, the coffee market is changing and the growth or expansion that firms need is not going to come from us lot of enthusiasts upgrading their kit every few years. It is going to come from attracting new people to the market and the market has firmly identified that this expansion is going to come from areas we do not like. So, Good Food exhibition this year is going to be full of capsules and pods with sexy machines where you press a button. Syrups, flavourings and the like. And, sorry as I am but I firmly place this Sage in that market. I am sure in hands the machine is very capable, but that is not my point. Over here, it is expensive. there is no other way of putting it. It is aimed at the newbie, impulse buyer. I am not saying some experienced users would not buy it. but, that is the target market the spin boys have identifies so is ticks all the boxes that market needs. So, it is therefore sold byt hose well known coffee retailers of amazon and the like and probably will not be sold by the more traditional retailer.


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Some people would call that gobby



dfk41 said:


> MW, I was being confrontational as I always am.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dennis, call it what you want. I care not!


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> No, I am sick of it already and really hoping that I win the Mythos raffle:mad:


Want to swap?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

CoffeeJohnny said:


> Want to swap?


Tell you what, if I win the Mythos raffle I will give it serious consideration, then I could have matching ones....one for decaf and one for ordinary!


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Tell you what, if I win the Mythos raffle I will give it serious consideration, then I could have matching ones....one for decaf and one for ordinary!


I'm picturing mine either side of the musica all the lights on full on coffee disco.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

CoffeeJohnny said:


> I'm picturing mine either side of the musica all the lights on full on coffee disco.


With YMCA playing ?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Or even the Village People.......!


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## bignorry (Mar 19, 2013)

I think when these machines start getting traded second hand on the bay then we will find their true market value compared to the other tried and tested machines .


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> I have a serious question. I have been mulling this around in my head overnight, which is what i always do when I am considering something. In Australia, then Twin Boiler is around 1200 Oz dollars or £710. In the states, around $1200 or £710, yet here it is £1200.
> 
> The grinder to match, in Oz is around 300 dollars or £177, in America around $200 or £125, yet here £199.
> 
> Why?


The price difference is unpleasant, but its not quite as bad as a simple dollar-pound conversion. We are obviously used to paying more in general for our electronics purely based on sales tax, but this only really tends to add a 15-20% rise in price over the US.

You also have to consider that this is a machine built for mass market consumption in the US (carrying the Breville name), over her it is an imported machine. A service and sales industry has to be built around it, and when they will not be expecting to sell even close to as many as they do in the US all these things cost more. Even priced at £700 it would still struggle to me a mass market machine, I dont know one other person apart from myself who would dream of spending that much money on a coffee machine.

We also pay more just because we earn more, prices of products are adjusted purely based on the assumed income of the target market. How much profit can be made without being 'too expensive'

And of course the Heston fee, but honestly I'm not so sure that is a big factor in the price. It will undoubtedly add to the cost but I'm don't know how significant it would be.


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## Dave Gubbin (Jan 10, 2013)

Hi All,

It's not the place for us to go too deep into price but there are a few factors at play. Some of those that have not been raised already are;

both Aus and USA are selling the BES900 (it's not the place to discuss other markets future prices (but suffice to say they may or may not be the same when the new model releases). There are significant differences between the 920 and 900 as discussed in another thread, including the white glove service.

Tax is significant. UK 920 @1199 incs 20% vat plus taxes on all shipping of which shipping costs are already > Aus and USA. Aus 900 @1499 incs 10% gst with 0% on shipping, USA tax is still to be added to the 1199 rrp.

Then forex is a whole other story.


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## gmason (Aug 9, 2012)

Breville products are commonplace across North America but the range here is restricted to small appliances. The release of the high-end espresso machines in the UK is part of a marketing strategy and without doubt it will appeal to the aspirational Nespresso owner who now wishes to upgrade to a professional style machine. Breville products are reliable, generally problem free, so for the High Street consumer prepared to splash the cash, there is no reason to assume it will not do well.

For Coffee Forum members, it's a different story. The prosumer (hate that word) purchase is more likely to be from an industry specialist with heritage or tradition in espresso machine manufacture as opposed to an all-purpose appliance maker who makes everything from kettles to electric whisks. This is not a criticism, but simply the way things are. SAGE in Selfridges or John Lewis will generate interest and there is unquestionably a healthy luxury appliance market who will see it as an opportunity to create the Costa coffee experience at home. Horses for courses.

I recently cleared out lots of redundant equipment to buy a Rocket. It wasn't an impulsive on-the-spot purchase. Like many here, I weighed up all the pros and cons over a couple of months, narrowed my choices (changed my mind every week) and went for a specialist or 'boutique' manufacturer with a legacy and street-cred in the espresso world. The average High Street customer is unlikely to do that. We will both pay close to the same amount for the machine, but mine is hand built and has a stellar pedigree. No contest.


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## big dan (Apr 11, 2012)

I read somewhere that there is more then one Breville brand. So the coffee machines and the juicers that we are seeing are all made by Breville Group Australia/USA and are completely separate from Breville UK that we know as making toasters! So to bring their products across into the UK market they had to re-brand it all Sage and market it as high level kitchen equipment with Heston's backing. I actually own a Sage juicer and it is a great product, albeit for £150 not £1200.

I have the same reservations as gmason above. If i am going to spent £1200 on an espresso machine i want it to be amazing and for me the traditional style E61 machines from some of the Italian manufacturers are going to tick more boxes. The Sage dual boiler has all the right features but it still looks like a normal kitchen appliance, it lacks the beauty of say the Rocket machines. If someone asked about your machine would you rather say it was hand built in Italy by a company that loves Espresso or that it was made in China by a giant corporation.

All in all though it does show that you can have all the features you want (PID, adjustable pressure, pre-infusion) and some you might not have even thought of before (pop up wheels to make the machine easier to move!) in an Espresso machine. I think that even if the Sage DB doesn't really take off over here it at least shows other manufacturers what they can do to improve.

Looking forward to hearing Glenn's conclusions on this machine and also to look under the hood as reliability still needs to be proven as well.


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

There have been two big criticisms coming from USA about the Breville machines. First, they have had reliability problems. Second, they are Chinese made and have lots of bells and whistles but some of those who are more purist say they have no soul. In the end, each to their own. I have just purchased a machine in this price range and I am very happy with it - I doubt I would ever buy a Chinese made coffee machine, but then I never thought I'd buy a Spanish made one either.


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