# PergTamp



## aaronb

Matt Perger has teamed up with Pullman to create his own tamper.

http://mattperger.com/Pergtamp

What do you think?


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## DavidBondy

At AU$170+shipping it makes the Torrs look even better value!!


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## garydyke1

Ive been an advocate of trapez bases for a while, due to the vacuum effect of sucking stray grinds in & yes 58.3 tampers still arent flush with VSTs.

If it really makes for a higher extraction , all things even, then this is worth investigating.

I wonder what elements have a patent ?


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## FranEW

Had a little read of the article seems pretty interesting really. His point about the effective tamping area on a tamper with a rounded base is quite valid I think.


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## garydyke1

Im in. Currently in talks with a black-market surgeon about removal of Laura's spare kidney, she'll only need one, right?!?!!!


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## Mrboots2u

garydyke1 said:


> Im in. Currently in talks with a black-market surgeon about removal of Laura's spare kidney, she'll only need one, right?!?!!!


Lol.......won't do her extraction rate any good


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## The Systemic Kid

garydyke1 said:


> Im in. Currently in talks with a black-market surgeon about removal of Laura's spare kidney, she'll only need one, right?!?!!!


Think you're using the word 'spare' very loosely, Gary


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## aaronb

<oof></oof>

13 chars......


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## Charliej

I'm sorry but I think he is starting to believe in his own legend- what's next? t shirts with his face on, autographed photos, cups with his mugshot? That is most certainly not the 1st ever tamper to have a nice sharp edge on the outer diameter of a flat base ( My Knock Heft 58.35mm is that type of design), nor the 1st to ever be over 58.4mm, Gary weren't the earlier Torr's 58.5mm?. Pullman, back when Greg Pullman owned and ran the company used to actually ask customers to either measure their VST or other baskets and he made the base sized accordingly, the result being bases up to 58.9mm in some cases.

I can't see any completely new elements in this or anything at all that would even remotely patentable, and I find his notion of making the Pergtamp specifically for the EK43 amusing, maybe he has a valid notion regarding the total tamping area, maybe he doesn't, it would take some peer reviewed rigorous studies and data to convince me, even the tampers name smacks of egotism and self promotion, when he didn't even make it to the WBC finals this year, coming in as national runner up.

I personally find Maxwell CD's water studies far more fascinating and ground breaking.


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## jeebsy

garydyke1 said:


> Im in. Currently in talks with a black-market surgeon about removal of Laura's spare kidney, she'll only need one, right?!?!!!


At least we've got the UK's biggest coffee geek © on the case

Edit: the name is horrendous though. Like a spoof Chris Morris product


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## The Systemic Kid

So, how many tampers have you got Charlie?


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## Mrboots2u

Where can i get these t shirts?


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## Mrboots2u

I'm am deeply surprised that you aren't being positive about matt perger Charlie.......

And how dare someone have new ideas...


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## garydyke1

The deal with the surgeon is done! What a lovely man, Nigerian chap, Mr Smith I think he said his name was. He let me keep his biro, so clearly a man to be trusted. Offered a good price for both, however , Laura's objections could be heard even through the floorboards at that proposition.

Who have thought anesthetics would be so expensive and yet given they are optional and i'm not made of money - she can take one for the team. Gum-shield, on a shot or two of vodka, it'll be fine.


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## The Systemic Kid

Good to see you've got your priorities right, Gary.


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## Mrboots2u

You can now buy perger tamp, t shirt, coffee cup, and whistling key chain.

Plus his suit of emperors new clothes


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## The Systemic Kid

Mrboots2u said:


> Where can i get these t shirts?


Is Charlie doing a group buy?


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## Xpenno

Mrboots2u said:


> I'm am deeply surprised that you aren't being positive about matt perger Charlie.......
> 
> And how dare someone have new ideas...


At least Matt didn't back it up with fact and science..... Oh, wait....


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## charris

Charlie this is not only for the EK43 he also mentions the robur and provide extraction results using the robur. Pullman tampers are as good as they get, pullman by Matt Perger would be a certain hit.

And yes he uses his name now that he can. But he is the man that has brought back the ek43 and informed the world about 20%+ extractions and it seems that even with something as simple as this tamper that he has done his homework.


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## Mrboots2u

Xpenno said:


> At least Matt didn't back it up with fact and science..... Oh, wait....


flat earth flat earth flat earth ....


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## The Systemic Kid

Mrboots2u said:


> flat earth flat earth flat earth ....


It is.....isn't it? I'm confused. Doesn't take much.


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## Xpenno

Mrboots2u said:


> flat earth flat earth earth


I heard that's how the dinosaurs became extinct. One day the solar winds flared up causing the flat world, known as Earth, to tip on it's axis. The dinosaurs only had small hands so couldn't grab on to anything so they all fell off and became extinct! Luckily the humans were able to grab onto trees to avoid certain death!


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## Mrboots2u

Xpenno said:


> I heard that's how the dinosaurs became extinct. One day the solar winds flared up causing the flat world, known as Earth, to tip on it's axis. The dinosaurs only had small hands so couldn't grab on to anything so they all fell off and became extinct! Luckily the humans were able to grab onto trees to avoid certain death!


Is this before or after the big boat with Noah in it ?


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## The Systemic Kid

Xpenno said:


> Luckily the humans were able to grab onto trees to avoid certain death!


Only one handed - didn't want to drop their tampers.


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## The Systemic Kid

Mrboots2u said:


> Is this before or after the big boat with Noah in it ?


Wasn't Noah related to Matt Perger?


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## Xpenno

Mrboots2u said:


> Is this before or after the big boat with Noah in it ?


Floored theory, if the Earth was flat then the water would just flow over the edges. floods=0


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## Xpenno

The Systemic Kid said:


> Wasn't Noah related to Matt Perger?


I think he was his brother.


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## Mrboots2u

Xpenno said:


> Floored theory, if the Earth was flat then the water would just flow over the edges. floods=0


Where does bilbo baggins fit into all this


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## MWJB

Charliej said:


> I'm sorry but I think he is starting to believe in his own legend- what's next? t shirts with his face on, autographed photos, cups with his mugshot? That is most certainly not the 1st ever tamper to have a nice sharp edge on the outer diameter of a flat base ( My Knock Heft 58.35mm is that type of design), nor the 1st to ever be over 58.4mm, Gary weren't the earlier Torr's 58.5mm?. Pullman, back when Greg Pullman owned and ran the company used to actually ask customers to either measure their VST or other baskets and he made the base sized accordingly, the result being bases up to 58.9mm in some cases.
> 
> I can't see any completely new elements in this or anything at all that would even remotely patentable, and I find his notion of making the Pergtamp specifically for the EK43 amusing, maybe he has a valid notion regarding the total tamping area, maybe he doesn't, it would take some peer reviewed rigorous studies and data to convince me, even the tampers name smacks of egotism and self promotion, when he didn't even make it to the WBC finals this year, coming in as national runner up.
> 
> I personally find Maxwell CD's water studies far more fascinating and ground breaking.


What would win out of a Maxwell and a Matt Perger? ;-)

Why suggest these 2 have projects that are in competition, rather than complementary?

Patent applications require disclosure of prior art, if Perger's claims aren't supported the patent will fold...but I suspect he has done his homework. What people "think" is patentable and what is actually patentable are often different things. You can patent many things be they tangible objects/devices, or new and useful ideas/processes.

The comparisons of extraction between the differing tampers was illuminating.

Who would fund these rigorous studies? What body would preside over the studies & who decides what products & claims need to be tested rather than taken at face value? There are enough folk out there with EK-43s and refractometers to validate, or otherwise, his claims. At the end of the day it's a tamper, buy it if you want to, don't if you don't...it's not being foisted on anyone against their will. Many of us were happy to take your observations on the Sage at face value, no rigorous peer reviews & data required there, just the observations of trusted, experienced, home baristas? Perger has at least supplied objective measurements, as usual, to support his claims.

I don't get why we decide to trust certain sources & not others given first hand inexperience of both?


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## The Systemic Kid

Mrboots2u said:


> Where does bilbo baggins fit into all this


He was the design engineer.


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## jeebsy

View attachment 7688


His face is on the reverse


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## MWJB

charris said:


> Charlie this is not only for the EK43 he also mentions the robur and provide extraction results using the robur. Pullman tampers are as good as they get, pullman by Matt Perger would be a certain hit.
> 
> And yes he uses his name now that he can. But he is the man that has brought back the ek43 and informed the world about 20%+ extractions and it seems that even with something as simple as this tamper that he has done his homework.


For no other reason that I cannot control my pedantry, it's really Scott Rao that takes the credit for identifying sweet, higher extractions on the EK-43, but Kaminsky & Perger have certainly taken the ball & run with it, taking it to a wider audience.


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## Lighty

I Didn't know me old mate Matt was making a public release yet ...

I really shouldn't say anything but he's been working with another tamper company too.

I've preordered with an ebony handle, it's the

Perger Torr E


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## Thecatlinux

If people are looking at such measurement to 1/100 of a MM for tampers and baskets i would just like to throw into the mix expansion of metals at temperature . Basket is at one temperature and tamper another ??


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## coffeechap

Funny thing I have been working with jens on a flat torr trapez at 58.5 which I should get my hands on soon.


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## Mrboots2u

"What would win out of a Maxwell and a Matt Perger? ;-)"

Noooooooooooooooooo

We haven't sorted the hulk versus thing debate yet


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## The Systemic Kid

jeebsy said:


> View attachment 7688
> 
> 
> His face is on the reverse


Want one - does it come in 58.4mm though?


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## MWJB

Thecatlinux said:


> If people are looking at such measurement to 1/100 of a MM for tampers and baskets i would just like to throw into the mix expansion of metals at temperature . Basket is at one temperature and tamper another ??


He covers this on his web page. It's >2 square cm, rather than 1/100mm & tamper bases quoted to the 1/100mm are already around (ahem, if you'll pardon the pun...







).


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## Thecatlinux

I haven't done the maths but if the game of extracting coffee is getting down 1/100mm someone is going to have to do a major rethink, is the portafilter handle made within such tollerence has the expansion of materials used been taken into consideration , possible case of expansion or deformation of basket in handle. Not to mention the human element of using a tamper at varying degrees of pressure and angles of depression . Perhaps I am being a little cynical but can't help feeling someone is cashing in on their name and reputation .


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## coffeechap

Thecatlinux said:


> . Perhaps I am being a little cynical but can't help feeling someone is cashing in on their name and reputation .


No shit Sherlock


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## MWJB

Thecatlinux said:


> I haven't done the maths but if the game of extracting coffee is getting down 1/100mm someone is going to have to do a major rethink, is the portafilter handle made within such tollerence has the expansion of materials used been taken into consideration , possible case of expansion or deformation of basket in handle. Not to mention the human element of using a tamper at varying degrees of pressure and angles of depression . Perhaps I am being a little cynical but can't help feeling someone is cashing in on their name and reputation .


He is claiming that the tamper tamps nearly 10% more of the surface area of the puck than a regular flat 58mm tamper, the math that supports this isn't so tough as to make it an ethereal issue. 58mm is 5800 hundredths of a mm, 58.35mm is 5835 hundredths of a mm...these things already exist, you're missing the point. The tamper is around a seventh of a mm more in diameter than a 58.35, with no edge radius that's another 2.15mm effective diameter, or 2.5mm over a 58mm with a 1mm edge radius.


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## aaronb

garydyke1 said:


> The deal with the surgeon is done! What a lovely man, Nigerian chap, Mr Smith I think he said his name was. He let me keep his biro, so clearly a man to be trusted. Offered a good price for both, however , Laura's objections could be heard even through the floorboards at that proposition.
> 
> Who have thought anesthetics would be so expensive and yet given they are optional and i'm not made of money - she can take one for the team. Gum-shield, on a shot or two of vodka, it'll be fine.


I've seen a film similar to this situation. If he wants to do the op in a car park in South Korea you may need to go on a vengeance quest, luckily you should have a heavy tamper to thwack wrong-doers round the head with. Element of surprise will be on your side!


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## garydyke1

MWJB said:


> At the end of the day it's a tamper, buy it if you want to, don't if you don't...it's not being foisted on anyone against their will.


Youre joking right?! But I signed the contract with the surgeon : ( How do I explain this to Laura now


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## The Systemic Kid

garydyke1 said:


> Youre joking right?! But I signed the contract with the surgeon : ( How do I explain this to Laura now


Buy her some flowers.


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## garydyke1

Thecatlinux said:


> If people are looking at such measurement to 1/100 of a MM for tampers and baskets i would just like to throw into the mix expansion of metals at temperature . Basket is at one temperature and tamper another ??


Not me , My basket is chilled in the freezer along with my EK, beans , tamper and the Kidney until Mr Smiths' crew-dem come and pick it up in exchange for $90000 Nigerian Francks


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## garydyke1

The Systemic Kid said:


> Buy her some flowers.


Hmmmm. Wish I had done the 2nd kidney option, have you seen the price of flowers?


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## garydyke1

MWJB said:


> He is claiming that the tamper tamps nearly 10% more of the surface area of the puck than a regular flat 58mm tamper, the math that supports this isn't so tough as to make it an ethereal issue. 58mm is 5800 hundredths of a mm, 58.35mm is 5835 hundredths of a mm...these things already exist, you're missing the point. The tamper is a fifth of a mm more in diameter than a 58.35, with no edge radius that's another 2.2mm effective diameter, or 2.55mm over a 58mm with a 1mm edge radius.


Now THATS Tamperwang


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## Charliej

First of all : from the top of the page

Secondly I didn't remotely suggest that his figures regarding the useable surface area of a tamper base were wrong or unusable data all I said was his finding needed further investigation, by someone without any interest in flogging tampers would be needed to convince me of his theory, no opposition to new ideas or anything like that, but there again I've never been one for leaping onto bandwagons unlike some people. Yes some people were prepared to take my word for it about the Sage DB, BUT, I wasn't trying to sell a Sage to anybody. Does anyone remember those ridiculous magnetic contraptions that were sold to clamp around a vehicles fuel lines and reduce fuel consumption? The sellers even had figures to suggest they worked, did anyone believe them? They were debunked pretty quickly as just being a sales tactic. Or has simply the notion of questioning St Matt of Mahlkonig gotten peoples backs up after all any figures he quoted other than the maths regarding the base sizes etc cannot be held to be objective when his agenda is to sell tampers

@ Mark where in my post did I try to set Matt Perger up against Maxwell Colonna Dashwood, I simply said I personally found Maxwells stuff about water more interesting and ground breaking.

There seems to be great deal of overlooking the fact that the page linked to is nothing more than an advert to sell these tampers. A not to Charris I'm well aware and have been for a large number of years of the quality of the Tampers made by Greg Pullman, however he has now retired and sold the name of his business to someone else, sold off all his excess stock and is no longer involved in the business in any way.

Regarding the patentability of this product, it simply has nothing new about it that could even be remotely patentable, lets take a look trapezoid sides- Torr have been making these for a long time, sharp rather than radiused edge of the base even Motta flat tampers are made this way, people have been making oversized bases specifically to fit VST baskets for a long time now, not just 58.4mm or 58.35mm either. So prior art exists and applies to the design of the Pegrtamp, which is by the way a dreadful name.

Other people have also questioned this tamper without anyone jumping down their throats figuratively speaking.

Thecatlinux said



> Perhaps I am being a little cynical but can't help feeling someone is cashing in on their name and reputation .


Followed by CC saying



> No shit Sherlock


 after quoting Thecatlinux's above statement.

Finally

@ Patrick what does the number of tampers I own have to do with this? I'm not trying to flog tampers to anyone.

@ Spence even Gary said



> *If* it really makes for a higher extraction , all things even, then this is worth investigating.


 ( Bold and Italics are my insertion for emphasis)


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## The Systemic Kid

My head hurts.


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## Mrboots2u

And so rests the case for the prosecution ........

So thing beats hulk

Maxwell beats perger

Charlie beats us all .....

Where's my t shirt and my blue anorak


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## The Systemic Kid

@ Patrick what does the number of tampers I own have to do with this? I'm not trying to flog tampers to anyone.

Wasn't implying you were selling them Charlie. But the question stands.


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## garydyke1

This is possibly the best thread ever. I never want it to stop


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## Mrboots2u

garydyke1 said:


> This is possibly the best thread ever. I never want it to stop


It's my favourite too EVER


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## coffeechap

Although enjoyable perhaps we need to lighten up a little folks


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## The Systemic Kid

coffeechap said:


> Although enjoyable perhaps we need to lighten up a little folks


You referring to the tamp, Chaps?


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## coffeechap

Was thinking more about the roast profile of pergs beans


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## garydyke1

coffeechap said:


> Although enjoyable perhaps we need to lighten up a little folks


I guess we could all do with shedding a few lbs.


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## The Systemic Kid

coffeechap said:


> Was thinking more about the roast profile of pergs beans


Definitely, light, fruity and rather acidic.


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## Xpenno

coffeechap said:


> Was thinking more about the roast profile of pergs beans


What?! The Pergbean , I hear their only good for flicking....


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## Charliej

The Systemic Kid said:


> @ Patrick what does the number of tampers I own have to do with this? I'm not trying to flog tampers to anyone.
> 
> Wasn't implying you were selling them Charlie. But the question stands.


I've got 5 tampers including the one that came with the Sage and a prototype Peter from Knock sent me to play with, the others are a 58.35mm walnut handled Knock Heft which is a Flat base and then the 2 Torr's a convex brass Goldfinger and a trap convex standard base with Goldfinger handle.

Martin wtf are you talking about nothing was mentioned about Matt V Maxwell other than I found one more interesting in my own personal opinion.

If it had been anyone else i.e not a well known Barista who endorses a popular grinder then the same questions I have asked would have been asked by others. At the end of the day its exactly the same as a well known chef getting a knife manufacturer to make him a set of knives and then also sell the knives using the chefs name as an endorsement. Maybe that's what Matt Perger is after, becoming the worlds 1st celebrity barista, even known to mainstream society?

Maybe in the future WBC finalists will be able to sell apron space for displaying a sponsors logo?

PS The Hulk would beat 7 shades out of the Thing until the Hulk calmed down and turned back into Bruce Banner and then the Thing would have his revenge. Even if the Thing's body does look like the surface of a constipated persons turd, and the same colour too .


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## Mrboots2u

Am cancelling t shirt order in readyness for a apron. I would defiantly buy one of them....


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## Mrboots2u

Celebrity barista. Lol coming from a man who owns a coffee machine fronted by a celebrity chef..........


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## The Systemic Kid

Do the tampers differ in any way in respect of function?


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## Xpenno

The Systemic Kid said:


> Do the tampers differ in any way in respect of function?


Which tampers are you referring to, did I miss something?


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## The Systemic Kid

Xpenno said:


> Which tampers are you referring to, did I miss something?


Charlie's own range of five.


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## garydyke1

This is like watching an episode of Jeremy Kyle on acid. Its ace


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## The Systemic Kid

garydyke1 said:


> This is like watching an episode of Jeremy Kyle on acid. Its ace


No this *is* an episode of Jeremy Kyle. And Rooney has just equalised. Does Rooney promote the PergTamp?


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## coffeechap

Come on England


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## Charliej

The Systemic Kid said:


> Do the tampers differ in any way in respect of function?


Well as you will know from your own experience owning multiple tampers. The 2 standard 58mm ones get hardly any use as I only rarely used the stock basket. Sometimes the flat base seems to work better for some beans at certain grind levels, e.g. the nordic roast beans I had from The Barn, when ground at the level they seemed to need to me didn't even come close to reaching the height of the specified dose for either the 16-29g IMS or my 20g VST baskets and using the convex based tamper seemed to produce pucks that were weaker in the centre presumably due to their thickness as they channelled badly but the flat base seemed to solve this. Generally speaking the convex Goldfinger seems to work best for me, but if I decide to nutate the trapz convex base makes this easier to be more accurate and repeatable. The standard based convex Torr I traded for a fancy shaving brush as I wasn't using it. So that's how they differ for me, don't you too own multiple tampers Patrick? how do they differ you if at all?

Martin as I previously stated more than once, I won the coffee machine I do *despite* that particular celebrity chef's endorsement *NOT because of it*

As I recall he actually endorses the brand as a whole not just individual items from their range, which when it comes to the coffee machines is extremely hypocritical because at the Michelin starred establishments he owns they still serve Nespresso. At least the coffee machine doesn't have a sticker of his smug face or his name anywhere on it !!!!


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## Mrboots2u

garydyke1 said:


> This is like watching an episode of Jeremy Kyle on acid. Its ace


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## jeebsy

Charliej said:


> At least the coffee machine doesn't have a sticker of his smug face or his name anywhere on it !!!!


That's my favourite thing about the EK, having a good leer at Matty's face when grinding the morning coffee. Never fails to muster a semi.


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## coffeechap

Charliej said:


> If it had been anyone else i.e not a well known Barista who endorses a popular grinder then the same questions I have asked would have been asked by others. At the end of the day its exactly the same as a well known chef getting a knife manufacturer to make him a set of knives and then also sell the knives using the chefs name as an endorsement. Maybe that's what Matt Perger is after, becoming the worlds 1st celebrity barista, even known to mainstream society?.


Hit like your and Gary's dodgy Heston thing


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## The Systemic Kid

So, Charlie, you use different tampers to get different effects/results. So, why isn't there room for another tamp on the market - punters don't have to buy it but it just might make a difference - just like the one you look for when swapping tampers.


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## The Systemic Kid

Mrboots2u said:


>


Jeez, is that a selfie Boots?


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## garydyke1

coffeechap said:


> Hit like your and Gary's dodgy Heston thing


correction : Cheap dodgy Heston thing


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## coffeechap

Correction super cheap


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> That's my favourite thing about the EK, having a good leer at Matty's face when grinding the morning coffee. Never fails to muster a semi.


nah.............


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## garydyke1

Grinding at half mast


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## MWJB

Charliej said:


> If it had been anyone else i.e not a well known Barista who endorses a popular grinder then the same questions I have asked would have been asked by others. At the end of the day its exactly the same as a well known chef getting a knife manufacturer to make him a set of knives and then also sell the knives using the chefs name as an endorsement. Maybe that's what Matt Perger is after, becoming the worlds 1st celebrity barista, even known to mainstream society?
> 
> Maybe in the future WBC finalists will be able to sell apron space for displaying a sponsors logo?.


The EK-43 is older than Matt Perger, it wasn't made for him, he credits someone else for identifying it's so called unique properties...from reviews simply from owners on this site, there appears to be "something" in it, or are they all blinded by the "Hello" style celebrity sway of the working barista?







If the grind distribution is identifiably more even, then this day was always coming, EK-43 driven or via some new kid on the block.

I think Wendelboe beat him to it on the celeb barista front? ;-) But let's not forget Perger is also a world renowned & respected *professional* barista, outside of competition, as well as a world contender in competition. If he chooses to share his findings publicly, it's actually rather generous of him & probably worth looking in whether you want to buy into it wholesale or not. It doesn't strike me as hard sell, I doubt the aim is to see a PergTamp in every house in the world, it'll speak for itself amongst those who share the same sphere of interest.


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## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


> nah.............


That one I ride atop like a rocking horse


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> That one I ride atop like a rocking horse


Giddy up Gary........


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## urbanbumpkin

Mrboots2u said:


>


Jeez this gives me the fear......Are his eyes moving?


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## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


> Giddy up Gary........


You need the big hopper on the get enough grip....when the motor kicks in it goes all tickly


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## garydyke1

urbanbumpkin said:


> Jeez this gives me the fear......Are his eyes moving?


Thats the acid kicking in


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## MWJB

urbanbumpkin said:


> Jeez this gives me the fear......Are his eyes moving?


No but his bowels might be...


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## MWJB

garydyke1 said:


> Thats the acid kicking in


Oh god, don't mention the "A" word!


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## Mrboots2u

garydyke1 said:


> Thats the acid kicking in


Clives got the fear , it's eurovsion all over again


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## urbanbumpkin

garydyke1 said:


> Thats the acid kicking in


LOL...I think it might be that Warrawee lightly roasted stuff from Rave. No wonder they're called Rave. Bring on the glow sticks

In fairness Jeremy Kyle is one scary fella.


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## coffeechap

MWJB said:


> Oh god, don't mention the "A" word!


What small 6 legged insect and what gary gets thinking about his EK


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## urbanbumpkin

Mrboots2u said:


> Clives got the fear , it's eurovsion all over again


England's performance tonight was on par with it.







at least Eurovision was entertaining....no milk maids or trampolining Greeks.


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## The Systemic Kid

Mrboots2u said:


>


Have you noticed how his unhinged gaze follows you if you look at the pic from either side - well scary.


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## Lighty

Until they did I didn't they could've scored in a knocking shop tonight

between this thread and the football it's been a barrel of laughs tonight

who wants first crack at completing the headline 'we didn't qualify because ______'

l'll start with 'cos in my short 43 years on the planet they haven't been anywhere near good enough'


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## The Systemic Kid

Lighty said:


> who wants first crack at completing the headline 'we didn't qualify because ______'
> 
> '


........Matt Perger was playing out of position.


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## Lighty

To go with my 'Perger Torr E' I'm going to get some 'bean Pergers' , a new 'tamp Matt' and a new improved 'Perge valve'


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## Mrboots2u

Lol this is a thread for serious coffee discussion not football please


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## Thecatlinux

Is there going to be a group buy then ?


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## The Systemic Kid

It is if Matt Perger is playing out of position.


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## Lighty

Nice boots ...

Unfortunately he would be picked, having the ability to finish a coherent sen ...


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## The Systemic Kid

Thecatlinux said:


> Is there going to be a group buy then ?


That's a good idea. Who could we ask to take the lead on this?


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## Mrboots2u

Thecatlinux said:


> Is there going to be a group buy then ?


Only on perger aprons


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## MWJB

Lighty said:


> To go with my 'Perger Torr E' I'm going to get some 'bean Pergers' , a new 'tamp Matt' and a new improved 'Perge valve'


I always wondered who stole Bob Monkhouse's joke book...


----------



## Lighty

Maybe cc could raffle one cat

if he can get one at cost and 50 of us put a quid in it might work


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Mrboots2u said:


> Lol this is a thread for serious coffee discussion not football please


It was quite funny when the Uruguayan player was coming round from being knocked unconscious. I thought he was going to blunder off and get tangled in the nets


----------



## Lighty

He did get clattered ...

the one time someone gets properly injured and you don't see a somersault with 4 twists in a pike tuck


----------



## Charliej

The Systemic Kid said:


> So, Charlie, you use different tampers to get different effects/results. So, why isn't there room for another tamp on the market - punters don't have to buy it but it just might make a difference - just like the one you look for when swapping tampers.


Patrick, can you find and quote for me , in context, any part of my post where I said there was no room for this new tamper on the market?

Because I'm pretty certain I never said that, I did say I want want to see other people getting the same results as him to be convinced that he has a point, and I also said I couldn't see any patentable features of his tamper and that it was in reality nothing new, once again nothing said there that was no room for it on the market. I'm sorry I seem to have offended a lot of EK owners by suggesting that this articles main purpose is to be an advert for his tamper, but that's all it is nothing more. nothing less.

With the EK43 plenty of other people have been able to repeat and/or better Perger's results, currently there is no published hard data about the tampers, other than the information about effective surface areas, to be reviewed. The only data he has offered about the resulting extraction percentages is a final averaged result, in order to know how effective his notion is you need to know the variance between extractions, using each tamper , i.e what was the lowest and what was the highest figure for each tamper, and was there an increase in extraction on EVERY individual test and to be quite honest a test that involves a sample size of more than 5.

@MJWB, Matt Perger has the credentials he has, it still doesn't stop that post being solely about promoting his tamper , and wasn't it actually Ben Kaminsky who got Matt Perger onto the whole EK train? In fact the EK has sod all to do with this thread other than the fact that it's current popularity and using it last year at the WBC brought his name into the spotlight, and professional barista or not he's still only human and human nature is to capitalise on "fame" whilst it's there as it's a fleeting thing that and the fact there isn't really anything startling and new design and concept wise in the tamper itself, what is new are the ideas he is stating about the effect of the tamper upon extraction percentages.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Who said ek train ....










Come on jump on board ....


----------



## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


> Only on perger aprons



View attachment 7694


I'll take five


----------



## Lighty

Splendid piece of light entertainment young boots and on that note

RIP Rik Mayall comedy genius of my generation


----------



## Thecatlinux

Well I am hoping Matt perger goggles pergtamp to see how his new venture is doing LOL certainly raised the profile of UKCF and I am sure an interesting read and feedback for him.


----------



## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> View attachment 7694
> 
> 
> I'll take five


Make that ten


----------



## Mrboots2u

Thecatlinux said:


> Well I am hoping Matt perger goggles pergtamp to see how his new venture is doing LOL certainly raised the profile of UKCF and I am sure an interesting read and feedback for him.


Someone tweeted him this thread .....


----------



## Xpenno

Mrboots2u said:


> Someone tweeted him this thread .....


If only he hung out around here more, maybe he'd learn a few things........... Lol..........


----------



## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


> Make that ten


Need a wee peep hole cut in the front


----------



## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


> Someone tweeted him this thread .....


They have?? Or they should?


----------



## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> They have?? Or they should?


Have...............


----------



## jeebsy

Jings....can't see him signing up after this


----------



## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> Jings....can't see him signing up after this


And miss all this ..............fool


----------



## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> Jings....can't see him signing up after this


Looks like he read it tho


----------



## garydyke1

If the aprons say ''grinding at half mast'' on the back, make that 15


----------



## Mrboots2u

garydyke1 said:


> If the aprons say ''grinding at half mast'' on the back, make that 15


And he's back....


----------



## garydyke1

The football remarks scarred me away for a while.

Just checked Boots, the kidney is safe and sound, double-freezer-bagged.


----------



## jeebsy

View attachment 7695


Jesus.........


----------



## garydyke1

lol. All press is good press eh?


----------



## jeebsy

Great first impression


----------



## Thecatlinux

Here's an idea , get one donated to the forum , we run a raffle . Donate all the proceeds to a worthy charity !


----------



## coffeechap

Gary is such a kiss ass


----------



## coffeechap

Oooooo perhaps he will tweet maxwell next


----------



## MWJB

Charliej said:


> @MJWB, Matt Perger has the credentials he has, it still doesn't stop that post being solely about promoting his tamper , and wasn't it actually Ben Kaminsky who got Matt Perger onto the whole EK train?.


No it was Scott Rao (there are, of course considering the age of the grinder, anecdotal accounts of folk using the EK for espresso more than a decade ago, but Rao identified the higher yields), Perger also used an EK for his 2012 brewers cup win, it was also used by that year's Ibrik champion. Kaminsky consulted/coached Perger for the 2013 WBC. The tamper was designed for use with the EK. He does say the PergTamp didn't vary beyond 0.4% Ext Yld...that's pretty consistent, I'm not sure you grasp the significance of this. Perhaps this exceeds your typical range of extraction? Tamper base vs ext yld has been been discussed & acknowledged before the PergTamp.

How would you identify a "patentable feature", is this really an area of your expertise? Either something is patentable, or it is not (usually fairly simple, plain English terms for law), irrespective of your viewpoint. If Pergtamp isn't new, just go buy one of the old ones from someone else's stockpile.

Hmmm, perhaps it's not proper celebrity endorsement after all...it's just a professional barista designing & selling a professional barista's tool, pah! Boring! I want a grill endorsed by a boxer, aftershave endorsed by a motorcycle racer, life insurance endorsed by an antiques show presenter, or car insurance endorsed by a wild child of rock'n'roll...that's how you do it! A tamper endorsed by a famous agony aunt, that's what I want!


----------



## Thecatlinux

I am sure its a very fine tamper, do you think there was meeting about how cheaply they could produce/manufacture the tamper so they could release it to the mass market and improve everybody's coffee.?????


----------



## jeebsy

Can't imagine machine stuff to that tolerance is particularly easy


----------



## coffeechap

Jens seems to manage it though


----------



## Thecatlinux

coffeechap said:


> Jens seems to manage it though


 At a fraction of the price


----------



## Charliej

Actually Mark, due to helping my Dad with some of his business stuff while living in Australia I picked up quite a lot about how patents work through his work for the New South Wales State Innovation Advisory Service, I can quite easily see how the name of the tamper could be trademarked, but there is nothing totally new or innovative about it, even a Motta flat tamper has the same none radiused edge profile of the tamping surface, 58.55 mm base, well once more nothing new there Torr Tampers were that size once and Reg Barber still offers any base size you want up to 58.9mm, Pullman themselves will make you any diameter you choose, so that isn't a patentable feature. Tapered sides/ trapezoid shaped base, well we all know that's nothing new as well. He could maybe get a trademark on that design but only on 58.55mm versions of that shape.

Something else I just noticed in the "article" that was 1st linked to is that he has published no findings for over sized convex bases of any nature only 58mm ones and against a plain 58mm base then any oversize one is likely to produce better results. In fact any tamper, by his findings that has a sufficiently large diameter and suitably sharp edge to the tamping surface would deliver an equivalent result, i.e. it doesn't require a Pergtamp to get the result, if Jens made a 58.55mm or even 58.6mm trapez flat base it would still deliver the same result, in fact the shape of the tamper edges has sod all to do with his results.

At the end of the day the meat of his article is about the impact a tamper base may have on extraction percentages, the fact is that this could be done with a suitable size of tamper made by anyone, e.g get Jens or Reg Barber to make some 58.59 mm bases, this should deliver the same or better results. Anything other than this on in that article is just fluff advertising his tamper.



MWJB said:


> No it was Scott Rao (there are, of course considering the age of the grinder, anecdotal accounts of folk using the EK for espresso more than a decade ago, but Rao identified the higher yields), Perger also used an EK for his 2012 brewers cup win, it was also used by that year's Ibrik champion. Kaminsky consulted/coached Perger for the 2013 WBC. The tamper was designed for use with the EK. He does say the PergTamp didn't vary beyond 0.4% Ext Yld...that's pretty consistent, I'm not sure you grasp the significance of this. Perhaps this exceeds your typical range of extraction? Tamper base vs ext yld has been been discussed & acknowledged before the PergTamp.
> 
> How would you identify a "patentable feature", is this really an area of your expertise? Either something is patentable, or it is not (usually fairly simple, plain English terms for law), irrespective of your viewpoint. If Pergtamp isn't new, just go buy one of the old ones from someone else's stockpile.
> 
> Hmmm, perhaps it's not proper celebrity endorsement after all...it's just a professional barista designing & selling a professional barista's tool, pah! Boring! I want a grill endorsed by a boxer, aftershave endorsed by a motorcycle racer, life insurance endorsed by an antiques show presenter, or car insurance endorsed by a wild child of rock'n'roll...that's how you do it! A tamper endorsed by a famous agony aunt, that's what I want!


----------



## Lighty

Best make one seriousish post in this thread ...

Is the tamp not the single area where human input means consistency is pretty hard to achieve?

Grind beans by mechanical method to set fineness

If weighed correctly then pretty consistent

groom if necessary .. Hmm

TAMP - here we are

pressure, angle, nutate, tap, etc

shot pulled at consistent temp and time mechanically

What it a machine is developed that takes the basket and ensures correct pressure applied (air?) to achieve perfect compaction ... I guess we're in I,Robot territory

i still recall a line in Scott Rao's book where he basically says 9 bar x area = a pressure of ** so don't sweat the whole 30lb thing because it's about to a whole lot more!!


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Charliej said:


> ?...... in fact the shape of the tamper edges has sod all to do with his results.


You should have added 'IMO' to your assertion, Charlie, as opposed to passing your opinion off as fact which is neither rigorous nor scientific unless, of course, you've been sent a Pergtamp and have fully evaluated MP's claims - including the use of a refractometer to check whether it does give higher extraction yields.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Lighty said:


> i still recall a line in Scott Rao's book where he basically says 9 bar x area = a pressure of ** so don't sweat the whole 30lb thing because it's about to a whole lot more!!


In fact, Rao advocates doing a series of tests to find the sweet spot for each machine which will be around 9bar but, with fine tuning, might be slightly over or under depending on test results.

Whether the Pergtamp makes any difference at all requires independent scrutiny and lab testing - particularly in relation to getting higher extraction yields from grinders that can get into that territory.


----------



## jeebsy

Charliej said:


> In fact any tamper, by his findings that has a sufficiently large diameter and suitably sharp edge to the tamping surface would deliver an equivalent result, i.e. it doesn't require a Pergtamp to get the result, if Jens made a 58.55mm or even 58.6mm trapez flat base it would still deliver the same result, in fact the shape of the tamper edges has sod all to do with his results.


You're saying a tamper needs a sharp edge to get the same result but then the edge doesn't matter?


----------



## Mrboots2u

Aw have people gone all serious again? Thats a shame

I've destined a 60mm tamp for my vst baskets anyone want one


----------



## coffeechap

Mrboots2u said:


> Aw have people gone all serious again? Thats a shame
> 
> I've destined a 60mm tamp for my vst baskets anyone want one


Not designed!! If you have sent one to your vst how can we get one?


----------



## Mrboots2u

No destined , designed means it probably breaks some patent laws ( I could ask Charlie this )

Destined means I've spirited it from a nether world where patient laws and the opinion of men on the internet means nowt









Plus it used time lord technology where it's get bigger on the blah blah blah blah blah

( or I can't tyep and or spell as usual )


----------



## Thecatlinux

Mrboots2u said:


> Aw have people gone all serious again? Thats a shame
> 
> I've destined a 60mm tamp for my vst baskets anyone want one


Have you you allowed for air pressure, humidity, ambient temperature and the angle of the dangle?


----------



## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


> Aw have people gone all serious again? Thats a shame
> 
> I've destined a 60mm tamp for my vst baskets anyone want one


Only if they're carved from the stone of destiny


----------



## coffeechap

I am developing one with an edge so sharp it doubles as a razor


----------



## Neill

jeebsy said:


> Only if they're carved from the stone of destiny


Now there's a tamper idea, stone based. Stick that in your patent pipe and smoke it.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Neill said:


> Now there's a tamper idea, stone based. Stick that in your patent pipe and smoke it.


what diameter is the pipe tho...


----------



## Neill

Mrboots2u said:


> what diameter is the pipe tho...


Just big enough to fit the tamper in of course.


----------



## coffeechap

Neill said:


> Just big enough to fit the tamper in of course.


Not exact enough for me I'm out


----------



## Mrboots2u

Neill said:


> Just big enough to fit the tamper in of course.


just ? just ? have you not been reading this thread ? there is no just mm make worlds collide. are the sides of the pipe flat or Trapez?


----------



## Neill

Mrboots2u said:


> just ? just ? have you not been reading this thread ? there is no just mm make worlds collide. are the sides of the pipe flat or Trapez?


I'm keeping the designs vague so none of you patent poachers lift it.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Mrboots2u said:


> Aw have people gone all serious again? Thats a shame
> 
> I've destined a 60mm tamp for my vst baskets anyone want one


Sounds like fate.....I'll take 4 to go with my other 4 tampers


----------



## Neill

Mrboots2u said:


> just ? just ? have you not been reading this thread ? there is no just mm make worlds collide. are the sides of the pipe flat or Trapez?


And yes, unfortunately I have just read it. The high point for me was when Gary tweeted Matt and suggested he read it


----------



## coffeechap

Neill said:


> And yes, unfortunately I have just read it. The high point for me was when Gary tweeted Matt and suggested he read it


Yeh vague attempt at a free one, god loves a trier


----------



## coffeechap

I think the Tahiti should be changed to

"Gary love matt"


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Neill said:


> And yes, unfortunately I have just read it. The high point for me was when Gary tweeted Matt and suggested he read it


Careful!!!....

He might nick out ideas for the stone 60mm smoking razor tamper


----------



## jeebsy

coffeechap said:


> Jens seems to manage it though


The pergtamp's diameter is more exact than pi to a.million decimal places


----------



## Neill

urbanbumpkin said:


> Careful!!!....
> 
> He might nick out ideas for the stone 60mm smoking razor tamper


Now that's a tamper I would buy.


----------



## Neill

coffeechap said:


> Yeh vague attempt at a free one, god loves a trier


If you don't ask you don't get I guess.


----------



## Neill

jeebsy said:


> The pergtamp's diameter is more exact than pi to a.million decimal places


Mmm, pie

13char


----------



## coffeechap

Incredible that vst couldn't manage to machine their baskets to exactly 58mm it is their fault we are where we are now!


----------



## Neill

coffeechap said:


> Incredible that vst couldn't manage to machine their baskets to exactly 58mm it is their fault we are where we are now!


Maybe vst need to offer custom baskets, measure your tamper with a micrometer and order a basket to fit


----------



## coffeechap

Neill said:


> Maybe vst need to offer custom baskets, measure your tamper with a micrometer and order a basket to fit


Would be south cheaper!!


----------



## DavidBondy

All this talk of the stone of destiny has given me an idea.

I have invented a grinder and tamper all-in-one (well all-in-two really but it doesn't sound as good!).

It is made out of stone (with a choice of stones) and consists of two pieces (this is about as patentable as MP's tamper methinks).

The lower piece is a kind if stone bowl which I am going to patent as a mestle. You pour your beans into said mestle and smash 'em up with the tamper part which I am going to patent as a porter.

Once your beans are smashed in the mestle and porter you load your portafilter and (here's the clever bit!) push them down with the porter which has a convex base, is exactly 58.575mm and has a trapezoid profile.

Everyone will swear that they can taste the difference. I make a fortune, you all buy one and CC becomes the official reseller.

I love it when a plan comes together. Job done!


----------



## Thecatlinux

Is it me or has the original mat perger web page been edited ???????


----------



## jeebsy

coffeechap said:


> Would be south cheaper!!


Is that a phrase from carrot crunching country?


----------



## Neill

Thecatlinux said:


> Is it me or has the original mat perger web page been edited ???????


What's been edited?


----------



## Neill

DavidBondy said:


> All this talk of the stone of destiny has given me an idea.
> 
> I have invented a grinder and tamper all-in-one (well all-in-two really but it doesn't sound as good!).
> 
> It is made out of stone (with a choice of stones) and consists of two pieces (this is about as patentable as MP's tamper methinks).
> 
> The lower piece is a kind if stone bowl which I am going to patent as a mestle. You pour your beans into said mestle and smash 'em up with the tamper part which I am going to patent as a porter.
> 
> Once your beans are smashed in the mestle and porter you load your portafilter and (here's the clever bit!) push them down with the porter which has a convex base, is exactly 58.575mm and has a trapezoid profile.
> 
> Everyone will swear that they can taste the difference. I make a fortune, you all buy one and CC becomes the official reseller.
> 
> I love it when a plan comes together. Job done!


I'm pretty sure I hold the patent for a stone based tamper but if you want I can sell you a licence. I charge 90000 Nigerian franks.


----------



## Thecatlinux

Can't remember reading about deformation of baskets last night . Might be wrong but I am sure the page has been edited


----------



## coffeechap

DavidBondy said:


> All this talk of the stone of destiny has given me an idea.
> 
> I have invented a grinder and tamper all-in-one (well all-in-two really but it doesn't sound as good!).
> 
> It is made out of stone (with a choice of stones) and consists of two pieces (this is about as patentable as MP's tamper methinks).
> 
> The lower piece is a kind if stone bowl which I am going to patent as a mestle. You pour your beans into said mestle and smash 'em up with the tamper part which I am going to patent as a porter.
> 
> Once your beans are smashed in the mestle and porter you load your portafilter and (here's the clever bit!) push them down with the porter which has a convex base, is exactly 58.575mm and has a trapezoid profile.
> 
> Everyone will swear that they can taste the difference. I make a fortune, you all buy one and CC becomes the official reseller.
> 
> I love it when a plan comes together. Job done!


Can we call it the 007


----------



## jeebsy

Thecatlinux said:


> Can't remember reading about deformation of baskets last night . Might be wrong but I am sure the page has been edited


It was in there yesterday afternoon, I remember seeing it


----------



## jeebsy

Actually it mentioned shrinkage and expansion but not sure about deformation


----------



## jeebsy

I didn't know Matt Perger was so ecclesiastical


----------



## DavidBondy

Neill said:


> I'm pretty sure I hold the patent for a stone based tamper but if you want I can sell you a licence. I charge 90000 Nigerian franks.


Neill, not a problem. I already have a number of millions of dollars in an account in Nigeria just waiting for me to release them! I will transfer the entire lot to you. You just have to pay a small registration fee .......


----------



## The Systemic Kid

coffeechap said:


> I am developing one with an edge so sharp it doubles as a razor


Know someone who would be in for that.


----------



## Thecatlinux

Well I'm thinking there is a typo as he states the inner diameter of the vst is 'VST baskets have a typical inner diameter of 57mm +/-0.15mm' if that's true a 58.55mm tamper is not going to fit?


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Thecatlinux said:


> Well I'm thinking there is a typo as he states the inner diameter of the vst is 'VST baskets have a typical inner diameter of 57mm +/-0.15mm' if that's true a 58.55mm tamper is not going to fit?


It will if you use a lot of tamp pressure


----------



## Thecatlinux

The Systemic Kid said:


> It will if you use a lot of tamp pressure


I also carried out similar tests when I was 2 years old.... A round peg will go through a triangular hole if you hit it hard enough !


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Mrboots2u said:


> No destined , designed means it probably breaks some patent laws ( I could ask Charlie this )
> 
> Destined means I've spirited it from a nether world where patient laws....


Love it - but patently not patient patents but then I know diddly squat.


----------



## jeebsy

Thecatlinux said:


> Well I'm thinking there is a typo as he states the inner diameter of the vst is 'VST baskets have a typical inner diameter of 57mm +/-0.15mm' if that's true a 58.55mm tamper is not going to fit?


Knew this was too good to be true


----------



## coffeechap

Have I detected a little Aspergers on this thread


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Thecatlinux said:


> I also carried out similar tests when I was 2 years old.... A round peg will go through a triangular hole if you hit it hard enough !


Thanks for your peer endorsement Cat. Have you published your findings - if not, what about Tamp Weekly, or maybe one of the Aussie journals.


----------



## sjenner

DavidBondy said:


> All this talk of the stone of destiny has given me an idea.
> 
> I have invented a grinder and tamper all-in-one (well all-in-two really but it doesn't sound as good!).
> 
> It is made out of stone (with a choice of stones) and consists of two pieces (this is about as patentable as MP's tamper methinks).
> 
> The lower piece is a kind if stone bowl which I am going to patent as a mestle. You pour your beans into said mestle and smash 'em up with the tamper part which I am going to patent as a porter.
> 
> Once your beans are smashed in the mestle and porter you load your portafilter and (here's the clever bit!) push them down with the porter which has a convex base, is exactly 58.575mm and has a trapezoid profile.
> 
> Everyone will swear that they can taste the difference. I make a fortune, you all buy one and CC becomes the official reseller.
> 
> I love it when a plan comes together. Job done!


Too late I am afraid David...


----------



## The Systemic Kid

coffeechap said:


> Have I detected a little Aspergers on this thread


Yeah, Asperger's rules KO!


----------



## The Systemic Kid

sjenner said:


> Too late I am afraid David...
> 
> View attachment 7698


Love the rifling on the tamp - is it patented?


----------



## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> I didn't know Matt Perger was so ecclesiastical


He works at St Ali

that was a clue ( patron saint of extractions ? )


----------



## Thecatlinux

coffeechap said:


> Have I detected a little Aspergers on this thread


i am am not sure what cotton has to do with it ! Maybe , maybe not


----------



## DavidBondy

sjenner said:


> Too late I am afraid David...
> 
> Oh Rats! So it is back to plan A to become rich ... just cash in my Nigerian Lottery win!


----------



## coffeechap

Thecatlinux said:


> i am am not sure what cotton has to do with it ! Maybe , maybe not


Is there two of you ?


----------



## Mrboots2u

I have been in secret discussions which I can't tell you about with Madebyknock

it will revolutionise coffee and wood and social services

i will tell you anyway ...

It is a patent design of a wooden barista , but he thinks if he really works hard he can become a human barista.

he is designed to have in interchangeable Tamper base on one of his hands ....

perge tamp, torr tamp, knock tamp , Bondy tamp .... Tamp tamp ..

Also when a drink is over extracted his nose gets bigger....

win win....

* available for shipping 2036

** mine will have a special red nose


----------



## Thecatlinux

coffeechap said:


> Is there two of you ?


Hang on i will have a count up ! Maths isn't my strong point ,


----------



## coffeechap

Boots has lost the plot


----------



## Thecatlinux

Mrboots2u said:


> I have been in secret discussions which I can't tell you about with Madebyknock
> 
> it will revolutionise coffee and wood and social services
> 
> i will tell you anyway ...
> 
> It is a patent design of a wooden barista , but he thinks if he really works hard he can become a human barista.
> 
> he is designed to have in interchangeable Tamper base on one of his hands ....
> 
> perge tamp, torr tamp, knock tamp , Bondy tamp .... Tamp tamp ..
> 
> Also when a drink is over extracted his nose gets bigger....
> 
> win win....
> 
> * available for shipping 2036
> 
> ** mine will have a special red nose


What coffee are you drinking at the moment mr boots ? And where can I get some ?


----------



## Mrboots2u

Thecatlinux said:


> What coffee are you drinking at the moment mr boots ? And where can I get some ?


Me no tell you

Keep genius to myself


----------



## Mrboots2u

coffeechap said:


> Boots has lost the plot


As we both know , fairly sure I never had it ....


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Mrboots2u said:


> He works at St Ali
> 
> that was a clue ( patron saint of extractions ? )


Wow, I never knew that.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Mrboots2u said:


> ......he is designed to have in interchangeable Tamper base on one of his hands ....
> 
> perge tamp, torr tamp, knock tamp , Bondy tamp .... Tamp tamp ..
> 
> Also when a drink is over extracted his nose gets bigger....
> 
> win win....
> 
> * available for shipping 2036
> 
> ** mine will have a special red nose


Old hat technology - won't get a patent for sure - shamelessly ripped off from Edward Scissorhand and look what happened to him. Rumour has it he's promoting barista tat on QVC and doing the odd shift in Starbucks. A lesson to us all - don't think about innovation - you don't know where it might lead.


----------



## MWJB

Charliej said:


> Actually Mark, due to helping my Dad with some of his business stuff while living in Australia I picked up quite a lot about how patents work through his work for the New South Wales State Innovation Advisory Service, I can quite easily see how the name of the tamper could be trademarked, but there is nothing totally new or innovative about it....


Actually Charlie, you didn't pick up as much as you think you did. Patents don't have to apply to totally new ideas or innovations, they also apply to improvements to existing concepts.


----------



## garydyke1

Mr Smith and approximately 17 large youths appeared at my house this morning demanding a kidney. After a few hours of hiding under the bed I could no longer ignore their attempts to remove my front door with bricks and bolt-cutters. ''Bald-Head come a-door, come a-door'' they demanded.

After a heated conversation (mainly in patois) I managed to defuse the situation by supplying Boot's address, where said Kidney is currently headed via Yodel 24hr Frozengoods service. The final words , prior to speeding off in their black Mercedes van ''Wey yu a go inna dem deh cloze? Yu fayva buttu ''.


----------



## Mrboots2u

garydyke1 said:


> Mr Smith and approximately 17 large youths appeared at my house this morning demanding a kidney. After a few hours of hiding under the bed I could no longer ignore their attempts to remove my front door with bricks and bolt-cutters. ''Bald-Head come a-door, come a-door'' they demanded.
> 
> After a heated conversation (mainly in patois) I managed to defuse the situation by supplying Boot's address, where said Kidney is currently headed via Yodel 24hr Frozengoods service. The final words , prior to speeding off in their black Mercedes van ''Wey yu a go inna dem deh cloze? Yu fayva buttu ''.


Lol like yodel will get it here in 24 hours

I will set the army of cows on them when they get here anyway

Or my wooden barista boy

Or the chickens

Am brushing up on my patois as we speak ....


----------



## garydyke1

Mrboots2u said:


> Lol like yodel will get it here in 24 hours
> 
> I will set the army of cows on them when they get here anyway
> 
> Am brushing up on my patois as we speak ....


I would suggest you act ''BIG BOUT YAH'' as they will be ''propa BRINDLE, get me fam?!''


----------



## coffeechap

Ah the booty pecker returns


----------



## Mrboots2u

garydyke1 said:


> I would suggest you act ''BIG BOUT YAH'' as they will be ''propa BRINDLE, get me fam?!''


di bald man rip yu off no kidney ar ya so.

hurt im wit a rusty spoon sideway dem


----------



## garydyke1

Mrboots2u said:


> di bald man rip yu off no kidney ar ya so.
> 
> hurt im wit a rusty spoon sideway dem


I read this in a pirate accent . I lol'd


----------



## froggystyle

Are they hoodlums from yardley?


----------



## jeebsy

BOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!


----------



## garydyke1

I believe he offered a right to reply for all forum folk ....on the comments section of his website .

Charlie - care to voice your opinion ??


----------



## DavidBondy

Good try I suppose!!


----------



## jeebsy

Yep, actively encouraged us to go on there for a bit of debate.


----------



## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> Yep, actively encouraged us to go on there for a bit of debate.


About coffee or aprons ?


----------



## Charliej

The Systemic Kid said:


> You should have added 'IMO' to your assertion, Charlie, as opposed to passing your opinion off as fact which is neither rigorous nor scientific unless, of course, you've been sent a Pergtamp and have fully evaluated MP's claims - including the use of a refractometer to check whether it does give higher extraction yields.


The shape of the tamper edge meaning the trapezoid shape of the sides not the edge of the base, the sloped sides has sod all to do with the surface area of the base.


----------



## jeebsy

Sloped sides allow you to nutate though which increases coverage? (maybe)?


----------



## Charliej

jeebsy said:


> Sloped sides allow you to nutate though which increases coverage? (maybe)?


It doesn't really increase the coverage, just allows for more aggressive nutating the same as a Torr Trapez does. What does interest me is why when looking specifically at VST baskets, for which an over size tamper is specified by VST, did he not include convex based, of whatever curve, oversize tampers in his testing? Something else from the depths of my brain, isn't the Reg Barber C Ripple base supposed to work by increasing surface area of the puck?

Another thought as well, when using a convex, oversized tamper, the shape of the surface of the tamped puck will have more surface area due to its shape than a flat surface, as they both occupy the diameter of the basket but the convex tamper will leave a concave shape in the puck surface?

I also think that there wouldn't be half as much interest in this tamper, or as much ire from the EK faithful if this had been introduced solely as Pullman , or Reg Barber, or Torr, or even a Knock product without any connection to St Matt or any well known barista.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Why don't you go debate directly with Mr perger ?


----------



## coffeechap

I think this is the right place to debate, it is interesting that mr perger did not test a convex base, however if aggressive nutating is your thing the flat tamp will direct the coffee into the edge of the basket more effectively, yet the convex will provide a better seal against the edge of the basket as the coffee is forced outwards


----------



## Mrboots2u

I mean you might get answers from then horses mouth on why


----------



## Mrboots2u

Ek faithful lol .


----------



## garydyke1

He did test a convex, just not a 58.xyz one.

Someone send me a convex + flat 58.5 base and ill do some TDS readings


----------



## jeebsy

garydyke1 said:


> He did test a convex, just not a 58.xyz one.
> 
> Someone send me a convex + flat 58.5 base and ill do some TDS readings


I've a new base in the post, can send your 58.5 down for assessment if you get a flat one from somewhere


----------



## ShortShots

Apparently a flat base allows for a better extraction yield, around +0.5% when tested across the board against c/convex etc, consistently...from the ben kaminsky study 'espresso blah blah blah...'


----------



## coffeechap

I have a 58.5 flat but it is not trapez


----------



## Xpenno

Yeah I read reports saying that flat gives a better extraction yield by a small amount. Convex may work better for some as they help seal the edge of the puck but the new design flat base should negate this requirement.


----------



## Milanski

I've just read through this whole thread in one go.

Not sure I've laughed and cringed so much in such a short space of time before


----------



## Thecatlinux

Can't see a comments section on his page.


----------



## Thecatlinux

57mm basket ????


----------



## jeebsy

Are you on desktop or mobile?


----------



## MWJB

Thecatlinux said:


> 57mm basket ????


Typo, should read "58.7mm".


----------



## Thecatlinux

Ipad...........


----------



## jeebsy

Is that how big they actually are?


----------



## Charliej

Xpenno said:


> Yeah I read reports saying that flat gives a better extraction yield by a small amount. Convex may work better for some as they help seal the edge of the puck but the new design flat base should negate this requirement.


Spence what is actually new about the design of the base? there are plenty of flat base none radiused edge tampers out there, and the tapered/ trapez sides don't help the total are covered by the base. My Knock Heft 58.35mm base has a perfect 90 degree angle between the base and the sides of the tamper. So if you don't nutate with this tamper then you'd be better off buying a 58.6 or 58.7mm flat base from anywhere as that would increase the coverage over the 58.5mm.

When Greg Pullman owned Pullman he originally started off with his oversize tamper bases by either you sending in your VST basket, or providing accurate data about it's diameter, and he made your tamper to be an exact fit with your basket, and he also sold matched pairs of basket and tamper as apparently back then at least there was a pretty significant variance between the inner diameter of the VST baskets.


----------



## Xpenno

Charliej said:


> Spence what is actually new about the design of the base? there are plenty of flat base none radiused edge tampers out there, and the tapered/ trapez sides don't help the total are covered by the base. My Knock Heft 58.35mm base has a perfect 90 degree angle between the base and the sides of the tamper. So if you don't nutate with this tamper then you'd be better off buying a 58.6 or 58.7mm flat base from anywhere as that would increase the coverage over the 58.5mm.
> 
> When Greg Pullman owned Pullman he originally started off with his oversize tamper bases by either you sending in your VST basket, or providing accurate data about it's diameter, and he made your tamper to be an exact fit with your basket, and he also sold matched pairs of basket and tamper as apparently back then at least there was a pretty significant variance between the inner diameter of the VST baskets.


There may be no significant benefit over any other large base tamper. I've not done my research on this so I don't know what else is out there. I'll certainly take a look though.


----------



## MWJB

Charliej said:


> So if you don't nutate with this tamper then you'd be better off buying a 58.6 or 58.7mm flat base from anywhere as that would increase the coverage over the 58.5mm.


No you wouldn't. 58.7mm tamper in a 58.7mm basket?


----------



## garydyke1

coffeechap said:


> I have a 58.5 flat but it is not trapez


I have a 58.3 trapez convex.

Perhaps its a valid set of tests.

58.5 flat

58.5 convex

58.3 trap convex


----------



## Milanski

Original post removed as it's obvious I don't know what I'm talking about









I'm trying to understand the science behind this. How are tamped surface areas and %age yield linked?

Trying to figure out why "...anything except a flat base will reduce extraction yield, no matter the diameter."


----------



## coffeechap

The 58.55 takes into account any other discrepancies, I have a 58.8 tamp that fits in some VSTs but not all!!


----------



## Spazbarista

Its funny that there are 24 pages of discussion over the shape of the base and not one single post considering the impact of the handle design and whether a nice firm grip leads to an even tamp.

I've been working on a new design and I'd like Charlie to review it on behalf of the forum


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Charliej said:


> Patrick, can you find and quote for me , in context, any part of my post where I said there was no room for this new tamper on the market?


Charlie, you're being disingenuous - as your posts on this thread are uniformly negative in respect of the Pergtamp and the claims MP makes, it's fair to infer from that you don't think it's a useful contribution to the wonderful world of tampers.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

I think it might be a bit of a squeeze in a VST!


----------



## charris

I think we need to re-think scales as well.

From the website:

if you care about consistency, if you care about quality, you need to be using an Ohaus Infa-red Navigator. Period.

http://sensorylabproshop.com.au/collections/front-page/products/ohaus-infa-red-scales

I think we really need a new thread on this. Anybody that is using cheap scales from ebay is an amateur in my opinion.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

charris said:


> I think we need to re-think scales as well.
> 
> From the website:
> 
> if you care about consistency, if you care about quality, you need to be using an Ohaus Infa-red Navigator. Period.
> 
> http://sensorylabproshop.com.au/collections/front-page/products/ohaus-infa-red-scales
> 
> I think we really need a new thread on this. Anybody that is using cheap scales from ebay is an amateur in my opinion.


Groan..........


----------



## Thecatlinux

charris said:


> I think we need to re-think scales as well.
> 
> From the website:
> 
> if you care about consistency, if you care about quality, you need to be using an Ohaus Infa-red Navigator. Period.
> 
> http://sensorylabproshop.com.au/collections/front-page/products/ohaus-infa-red-scales
> 
> I think we really need a new thread on this. Anybody that is using cheap scales from ebay is an amateur in my opinion.


I have two sets of said ebay scales does that make me an amateur amateur ? Or a professional amateur ?

i thought it was my technique that was bad and in need of improvement , now i know its down to the sub standard tamper, basket and scales i don't feel so bad , now going to make another terrible coffee


----------



## jeebsy

charris said:


> I think we need to re-think scales as well.
> 
> From the website:
> 
> if you care about consistency, if you care about quality, you need to be using an Ohaus Infa-red Navigator. Period.
> 
> http://sensorylabproshop.com.au/collections/front-page/products/ohaus-infa-red-scales
> 
> I think we really need a new thread on this. Anybody that is using cheap scales from ebay is an amateur in my opinion.


Quite right. In shop environment where you need speed and consistency they are the boys.


----------



## Charliej

The Systemic Kid said:


> Charlie, you're being disingenuous - as your posts on this thread are uniformly negative in respect of the Pergtamp and the claims MP makes, it's fair to infer from that you don't think it's a useful contribution to the wonderful world of tampers.


Patrick, with the greatest of respect, you need to go back and actually read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. I suggested, just as you did recently that more research was required, I still believe a sample size of 5 is far too little to be of any real use. I also asked what was so new and revolutionary about it, with examples as to why I thought that way. I passed a comment on the name of it, and I wasn't the only one to do so. I offered an opinion that it was just cashing in on his fame, again so did other people.



> maybe he has a valid notion regarding the total tamping area, maybe he doesn't, it would take some peer reviewed rigorous studies and data to convince me


 that is a quote from my 1st post in this thread, no different to you suggesting more study was needed.

In fact pretty much every post you have made on this thread hasn't added anything useful to the thread and has just been thinly veiled unwarranted "go's" at me for some reason or taking the piss out of me.

@ MJWB Reg Barber actually offer tamper bases all the way up to 58.9mm, and when Greg Pullman first started making tampers to fit VST baskets he wouldn't actually make a standard one size fits all version, instead he would either sell you a basket and tamper that had been machined to fit that basket properly, or he would ask you to send him your basket or make detailed measurements of it and again make a tamper sized accordingly. So the notion of a 58.7 mm tamper isn't that crazy, unless of course you also think Reg Barber has lost the plot too?

I've just measured my VST baskets with a set of digital callipers, the 20g one measured 58.52 mm, the 18 g one measured 58.47 mm and the 22g one 58.45mm , so none of them are close to the nominal 58.7 mm Matt Perger states and from a quick look at the VST website I can't find anything that specifies the inner diameter which is quite puzzling. Has anyone else got a set of callipers they could measure the inner diameters of their VST baskets with?


----------



## Mrboots2u

Mrboots2u said:


> Is this still going on ...


I'm totally lost with this now.


----------



## Lighty

I'm with the cat ...

Superb list of excuses on which to blame the end result other than cack handiness!

its like saying the England players were wearing the wrong boots

too many variables - who is ever going to pull two identical shots?


----------



## DavidBondy

I think I'm losing the will to live now .&#8230;


----------



## Mrboots2u

DavidBondy said:


> I think I'm losing the will to live now .&#8230;


your not alone .....


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Charliej said:


> Patrick, with the greatest of respect, you need to go back and actually read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. I suggested, just as you did recently that more research was required, I still believe a sample size of 5 is far too little to be of any real use. I also asked what was so new and revolutionary about it, with examples as to why I thought that way. I passed a comment on the name of it, and I wasn't the only one to do so. I offered an opinion that it was just cashing in on his fame, again so did other people.


Thank you Charlie. I guess what I find sad in some of your posts is that you feel the need to make ad hominem attacks on MP which, IMO, are unnecessary and, IMO, devalue the points you're trying to make.


----------



## MWJB

Charlie, I'm not going to be drawn into a game of picking sides & encouraged to say potentially disparaging things about Reg Barber (or anyone else), but I'm certainly sure he is clever enough not to jam a 58.9mm tamper into a 58.7mm basket. I think you're frankly being irresponsible dragging other parties, who have not expressed any desire to be involved, into your argument/issue/conspiracy theory. Perger has made some claims & offered a product for sale. He has backed up his position with some figures/assertions, which you don't like the sound of but can't actually offer any solid rebuttal, just things that you "think/don't think/see/don't see". If 5 measurements of extractions, with each of 5 tampers isn't conclusive enough for you, how are we to accept that 3 measurements, one each of 3 baskets, is any more conclusive, or rigorous? I hope that you expect to be taken to task in the same manner whenever you express an opinion/recommendation on a product ("rigorous peer reviews/further research")? If that were the case, how do you think the purveyors of those products would actually feel if you were hounded by others in the manner you are doing here & their products subject to equivalent, hypothetical deconstruction?


----------



## Charliej

MWJB said:


> Charlie, I'm not going to be drawn into a game of picking sides & encouraged to say potentially disparaging things about Reg Barber (or anyone else), but I'm certainly sure he is clever enough not to jam a 58.9mm tamper into a 58.7mm basket. I think you're frankly being irresponsible dragging other parties, who have not expressed any desire to be involved, into your argument/issue/conspiracy theory. Perger has made some claims & offered a product for sale. He has backed up his position with some figures/assertions, which you don't like the sound of but can't actually offer any solid rebuttal, just things that you "think/don't think/see/don't see". If 5 measurements of extractions with each of 4 tampers isn't conclusive enough for you, how are we to accept that 3 measurements, one each of 3 baskets, is any more conclusive, or rigorous? I hope that you expect to be taken to task in the same manner whenever you express an opinion/recommendation on a product ("rigorous peer reviews/further research")? If that were the case, how do you think the purveyors of those products would actually feel if you were hounded by others in the manner you are doing here & their products subject to equivalent, hypothetical deconstruction?


Mark as I recollect I was taken to task for daring to say good things about the Sage. I have most certainly not made any suggestion of any conspiracy theory, or "dragged" other people into it, all I have done is offer the point that tampers larger than 58.7mm are made. I have never once said that his figures regarding the sizes of tamper bases or his assertions regarding the effect on extraction were unfounded or untrue, I simply said that I would like to see more data and tests in order to be convinced, and asked why no oversize convex base tampers had been used in the tests. Also measurements of a physical object i.e my VST baskets at room temperature has no variables to the measurement it's simply a case of switch on the callipers, make sure they are zeroed and measure the diameter of the basket, the measurement of a shot of coffee's extraction percentage is a totally different thing composed as we all know of several variables combined to form a process, as witnessed by Matt Pergers own figures it was not the same every time.

My main issue with the Pergtamp is , one it's a pretty silly sounding name, and I'm not the only person to have commented on that, and secondly the claims about it being nothing like any other tamper that exists- when that isn't the case. For your information following a post I made on his page, he replied that he was unaware that anyone had previously made tampers with tapered sides, and that also the diameter of the base is actually an un-patentable thing anyway, as he had said himself early on in the main body of the article, by stating that only "most" of the tamper manufacturers make tampers with a radiused edge, which means that a sharp edge couldn't be part of the patent, leaving the patent to be mainly about the tapered or trapezoid sides, and as he had never known that anyone else made these it is no surprise he says some of the things he does about it.

To address my concerns about the number of measurements made, by my reckoning he made 5 sample extractions with 4 different tampers, making a total number of samples to be 20, now I'm not being funny but would you feel safe if medication or anything involving your health and safety were only subjected to the same amount of testing? To my mind you would need to make a lot more than 5 sample extractions to obtain any statistically meaningful data, after all a graph that is only plotted on a basis of 5 points of data won't be a very accurate graph and certainly could not be used to make any larger scale inferences from.

I wasn't the only person to think that he is also cashing in on being well known. Whatever information was contained in that post it still remains that it was to all intents and purposes nothing more than an advert for his new on the market tamper.

The measurements of my VST baskets actually came as quite a surprise to me, which was why I asked if anyone else had measured theirs and I was very surprised to find that on the VST website no figure seemed to be quoted anywhere for the inner diameter of the baskets of the design tolerance for that figure.


----------



## garydyke1

TDS is a physical measurement . Once dialled in I've witnessed little variance to extraction % with a fixed dose and fixed output . The refractometer is a darn accurate device


----------



## MWJB

Charliej said:


> now I'm not being funny but would you feel safe if medication or anything involving your health and safety were only subjected to the same amount of testing?.


I'd gladly take any medication as long as I knew you'd measured its diameter at least once with your infallible, rigorously tested, recently calibrated, high precision digital callipers and you could show me a "graph" with that single lonely dot to reassure me.


----------



## Geordie Boy

Charliej said:


> To address my concerns about the number of measurements made, by my reckoning he made 5 sample extractions with 4 different tampers, making a total number of samples to be 20, now I'm not being funny but would you feel safe if medication or anything involving your health and safety were only subjected to the same amount of testing? To my mind you would need to make a lot more than 5 sample extractions to obtain any statistically meaningful data, after all a graph that is only plotted on a basis of 5 points of data won't be a very accurate graph and certainly could not be used to make any larger scale inferences from.


There are statistical hypothesis tests you can do on data to test for significance between sets of data (to put it very crudely, you calculate a 'p' value which looks at the probability that random non-significantly different data would have come up with the same result such that you have to prove a significant difference in the data sets - a bit like in court that someone is innocent until proven guilty).

Conversely there's no easy answer as to how many data points are required to show this statistical significance as it depends on the results of the data points themselves (the higher the number of data points then you can show this statistical difference to be present for a lower value of a difference if that makes sense).

Ultimately though, 5 data points could be enough though it depends on the resulting 'p' value calculated and what your data looked like, which might drive you to go and collect more data if the 'p' value showed a level of significance but wasn't conclusive


----------



## Thecatlinux

.Kerchinggggg!!!!!!!!


----------



## jeebsy

Thecatlinux said:


> .Kerchinggggg!!!!!!!!


How many of these do you think he'll sell? Can't imagine it'll have a massive uptake


----------



## Thecatlinux

Strange how they are not already made! It's all about pre ordering to see what the interest is. You haven't got to look very far to find a cheaper alternative.

There is validity in what he is saying about tamper shapes and sizes , but from what I can see it has already been done by others. .

now if he had of designed and brought to the market a pressure/force adjustable 'press stand' with interchangeable tamper bases of various sizes and shapes which you could select to use and 'fit' to whatever your working internal diameter of basket was.


----------



## Mrboots2u

This is never going to end is it .....


----------



## MWJB

Never, ever, ever....welcome to the rest of our lives...


----------



## Geordie Boy

Can we have an 'Ignore' button added to threads so they don't show in our feeds?


----------



## Mrboots2u

MWJB said:


> Never, ever, ever....welcome to the rest of our lives...


It's pergtamp day


----------



## MWJB

Thecatlinux said:


> Strange how they are not already made! It's all about pre ordering to see what the interest is. You haven't got to look very far to find a cheaper alternative.
> 
> There is validity in what he is saying about tamper shapes and sizes , but from what I can see it has already been done by others.


It's always easy to look at an innovation & say, "I/somebody *could* have done that". Hindsight isn't a super power, it's just being wise after the event, like if I'd have picked last week's winning lottery numbers, I'd be a millionaire now...seems so easy & obvious in retrospect!







. If you want a £20 tamper buy a £20 tamper, job done, exercise fulfilled, live a happy life. There are other tampers in the same, or higher, price range as the Pergtamp.


----------



## garydyke1

Haters gonna hate

#EK43ENVY


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Mrboots2u said:


> It's pergtamp day


His technique sucks though. Will it fit a VST basket??


----------



## Mrboots2u

The Systemic Kid said:


> His technique sucks though. Will it fit a VST basket??


LOl was replacing the alarm clock with my iPad and thread updates.....


----------



## Mrboots2u

What i find a little bewildering is that a thread " debating " the ins and out of a new product which none of us have yet or have tried or is even made, gets more views and use than one where we are asked to record our coffee usage for the month ( which might actually elicit some interesting data etc )

Makes me much sad.....


----------



## Thecatlinux

Mrboots2u said:


> What i find a little bewildering is that a thread " debating " the ins and out of a new product which none of us have yet or have tried or is even made, gets more views and use than one where we are asked to record our coffee usage for the month ( which might actually elicit some interesting data etc )
> 
> Makes me much sad.....


Don't worry mr boots I think this thread has died ,


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Thecatlinux said:


> Don't worry mr boots I think this thread has died ,


We can all live in hope.


----------



## Geordie Boy

Mrboots2u said:


> What i find a little bewildering is that a thread " debating " the ins and out of a new product which none of us have yet or have tried or is even made, gets more views and use than one where we are asked to record our coffee usage for the month ( which might actually elicit some interesting data etc )
> 
> Makes me much sad.....


....and this thread still isn't as big as the Eurovision one either!


----------



## Mrboots2u

Geordie Boy said:


> ....and this thread still isn't as big as the Eurovision one either!


forgot that

best thread ever


----------



## CamV6

Is it just me or is there a whiff of the emperors new clothes about this pergtamp malarkey?


----------



## Geordie Boy

Mrboots2u said:


> forgot that
> 
> best thread ever


Great memories


----------



## Mrboots2u

CamV6 said:


> Is it just me or is there a whiff of the emperors new clothes about this pergtamp malarkey?


I now have a full bingo card


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Mrboots2u said:


> I now have a full bingo card


Time to start another one, I fear.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Geordie Boy said:


> Great memories


And in English, just in case you had any doubts

We Slavs know how ours works on us,

We like how you move with what your mum has given you in genes.

This is that hot blood, this is our Slavonic call!

We Slavs girls know how to use a body language,

We know how to move with what your mum has given you in genes.

This is that Slavonic blood, this is that charm and grace!

1.

We have what nobody else has,

We appreciate the natural shape.

Vodka is better than whisky and gins,

The best is here, whatever you want.

We are on the familiar cream growing up,

gentle, rubicund as a bread.

There is no better than our Slavs girls,

Who had seen and tasted then knows!

Chorus

We Slavs know how ours works on us,

We like how you move with what your mum has given you in genes.

This is that hot blood, this is our Slavonic call!

We Slavs girls know how to use a body language,

We know how to move with what your mum has given you in genes.

This is that Slavonic blood, this is that charm and grace!

What is ours is the best, because it is ours,

What is ours is the best, it is ours you know it.

What is ours is the best, because it is ours,

What is ours is the best, it is ours you know it!

2.

In genes we have what nobody else has,

They're coming from many sides of the world.

Here is good vodka and good girls,

Look for perfect wives here.

And our Ladies haven't got complexes,

Because they haven't got reasons to have them.

And in the video there's no subtexts,

If you don't believe, go to a countryside!

Chorus

We Slavs know how ours works on us,

We like how you move with what your mum has given you in genes.

This is that hot blood, this is our Slavonic call!

We Slavs girls know how to use a body language,

We know how to move with what your mum has given you in genes.

This is that Slavonic blood, this is that charm and grace!

We know how!

Mmm we know how ooo!

Haha ooo we know how!

Highlight of Eurovision by a country mile


----------



## Mrboots2u

How proud I am of my polish heritage now...


----------



## Mrboots2u

CamV6 said:


> Is it just me or is there a whiff of the emperors new clothes about this pergtamp malarkey?


sorry can I was a bit fecious then.

apologies.

there have been a few different points of view aired on this thread .

most angles have bee covered I think.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Geordie Boy said:


> ....and this thread still isn't as big as the Eurovision one either!


It was a monster threadathon......I think it was me that started it







. Shame it wasn't coffee related


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## aaronb

urbanbumpkin said:


> It was a monster threadathon......I think it was me that started it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Shame it wasn't coffee related


I feel a bit guilty about starting this, just expected a page or 2 on tamper discussion!


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## The Systemic Kid

aaronb said:


> I feel a bit guilty about starting this, just expected a page or 2 on tamper discussion!


Beware the law of unintended consequences









http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20130911210347-6388496-breaking-bad-the-law-of-unintended-consequences


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## garydyke1

Mrboots2u said:


> I now have a full bingo card


Postwang! Is Pergtamp compatible with Italian Job??


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## jeebsy

Or dark roasts in general?


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