# Mahlkonig Vario vs Niche Zero



## dboggel (Mar 19, 2020)

Hi everyone,

Recently started my promestic journey in coffee. Currently use a manual grinder, but am looking for an electric upgrade that will suffice for a good few years. I'm on the fence between going for a Mahlkonig Vario with ceramic burrs (seems sturdy, reliable and great longevity) and the Niche Zero.

The latter is considerably more expensive. There are loads of reviews on the Niche and everyone seems sold, but cannot find any direct comparisons. Is there anybody on this forum with hands on experience for both? I'm mainly pulling espresso and flat whites for now, but am looking to add pour-over to the arsenal as well.

Any guidance much appreciated!

Dboggel


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Baratza/Malhlkoneig Vario manufacturers have wonderful parts support, second to none and will get parts out to you quickly and seemingly without argument as many 1000s of owners have found in the USA and around Europe. Probably have one of the best sending out "free parts department" in the world. When the grinder goes wrong (as a high proportion of them do), they definitely have your back. Stripped cogs and drive belts, all part of the design to save the grinder breaking, slipping arms, they will supply you with shims, burnt out motors, they will send you another.... The reliability of the Vario is legendary!


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

I had Niche and Forte BG.

Forte is Vario made for commercial environment. So I can't comment on reliability of Vario, but Forte works great.

I exchanged ceramic burrs with steel burrs (BG).

If you are looking for espresso grinder go for Niche.

If you are looking for single dosing grinder - go for Niche.

If you are looking for on-demand grinder for espresso - go for Vario.

If you are looking for pour-over grinder go for Vario with steel burrs.

If you are looking for grinder for both espresso and pour-over - go for Niche.


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## dboggel (Mar 19, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> Baratza/Malhlkoneig Vario manufacturers have wonderful parts support, second to none and will get parts out to you quickly and seemingly without argument as many 1000s of owners have found in the USA and around Europe. Probably have one of the best sending out "free parts department" in the world. When the grinder goes wrong (as a high proportion of them do), they definitely have your back. Stripped cogs and drive belts, all part of the design to save the grinder breaking, slipping arms, they will supply you with shims, burnt out motors, they will send you another.... The reliability of the Vario is legendary!


 Thanks Dave, I didn't even need to read between the lines ? Thanks for pointing out something that would most definitely drive me nuts after malfunctioning so many times. I read up about the Baratza Sette 270Wi, which I had my eye on from a design perspective, but loads of complaints as well regarding malfunctions.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dboggel said:


> Thanks Dave, I didn't even need to read between the lines ? Thanks for pointing out something that would most definitely drive me nuts after malfunctioning so many times. I read up about the Baratza Sette 270Wi, which I had my eye on from a design perspective, but loads of complaints as well regarding malfunctions.


 I reviewed a Vario long time ago when they had only been out a while and everyone raved about them. I didn't like it back then and said so, I got a lot of hate because of that review and even though it was on BB web site (might still be) for ages, people still purchased the Vario from them....so what do I know. I wrote the review at the link below (it's v3 I'm sure I did a v4?) around14+ years ago.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjIqumajafoAhVOXsAKHQSOCtgQFjAAegQIBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbellabarista.co.uk%2Fpdf%2Fcompactgrinder1closerlookv3.pdf&usg=AOvVaw03Xx2DdC5K2L5b1HTFqjKN


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

To be fair, I had one of the very first VArios in the UK as I was on good terms with a well known firm (not BB) and Dave tried to put me off then. He ws right. It broke very quickly. When you ground the adjustment levers used to go up and down....then they decided you needed to shim them etc etc....a Niche at least gives you new technology.....the Sette was great the it worked as well!


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## dboggel (Mar 19, 2020)

Jumped in the deep-end here, Niche arriving on Monday! Will revert first impressions from a "green bean" standpoint  have a nice weekend and thanks for your comments guys!


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## dboggel (Mar 19, 2020)

Well the grinder is fab, but it also created a problem: my gaggia classic pre-2015 cannot handle the espresso grind ? on to locating the problem there!!


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

dboggel said:


> Well the grinder is fab, but it also created a problem: my gaggia classic pre-2015 cannot handle the espresso grind ? on to locating the problem there!!


 Ignore the writing around the dial - just go coarser


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## dboggel (Mar 19, 2020)

Stevebee said:


> Ignore the writing around the dial - just go coarser


 Good shout, thank you! Let me give it a go tomorrow. Bit late to be drinking coffee now ? I take it you have one too? Setting is currently on "20" between Espresso and Drip.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Conversely other than having to shim mine my 2012 Vario is still going strong and never misses a beat.

Had the Niche been on the market I'd have been tempted and I might get one at some stage when I have the spare £ (not anytime soon by the looks of things).


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

dboggel said:


> Good shout, thank you! Let me give it a go tomorrow. Bit late to be drinking coffee now ? I take it you have one too? Setting is currently on "20" between Espresso and Drip.


 I was on 20 for espresso but now nearer 16 with the NFC disc fitted so your in the right ballpark. It depends on how you calibrated it re finger tight so don't worry too much. Just keep adjusting until it's right for your machine.


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## Sheedapistawl (May 10, 2020)

Vario with the DIY super alignment procedure seems to be the killer move - did it on mine, no longer see myself paying for coffee even at third wave shops...home coffee is just incredible now, to quote folks in this thread, vario can achieves world class runout with a very simple DIY alignment procedure (5 microns of runout)

Original thread:

https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/baratza-vario-super-alignment-owner-experience-t60764.html

reddit summary:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/index.php?app=core&module=system&controller=embed&url=https://www.reddit.com/r/Coffee/comments/gv0c76/psa_folks_who_own_or_considering_buying_a_baratza/?utm_source=share%26utm_medium=ios_app%26utm_name=iossmf


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

So alignment makes up for comparing EK burrs to Vario......excellent news!


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## Sheedapistawl (May 10, 2020)

Take it from Scott Rao.

The diff between the forte and the vario are a few parts - burr carriers and the grind chamber, minimal diff in cup, so below quote from Scott still applies to the Vario.

also note that on the EK, I think the alignment needs to be done now and again, whereas the forte and vario it seems to be a one shot thing because of the design (could be wrong, time will tell).

https://www.scottrao.com/blog/2019/1/5/baratza-forte-vs-ek43-which-is-better

"Because of the Ek43's alignment issue, I desperately wanted to avoid overpaying for a machine that would give me fits. I'm *pleased to report that the Forté extracts higher than any EK43 I have ever used, makes tastier coffee than any EK43 I have ever used, and can grind much finer than most EK43'*s."


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Sheedapistawl said:


> Take it from Scott Rao.
> 
> The diff between the forte and the vario are a few parts - burr carriers and the grind chamber, minimal diff in cup, so below quote from Scott still applies to the Vario.
> 
> ...


 Thats him added to the ' I talk total bollocks list' then


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@dfk41 - Also makes me wonder if he just happened to get a new sponsor around this time?... 😂


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

dfk41 said:


> Thats him added to the ' I talk total bollocks list' then


 Is what he said rubbish then? For a fact rubbish? The Forte isn't better? (I only ask because I was going to consider it if it was really that good)


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## Sheedapistawl (May 10, 2020)

Are all these folks also on the bollocks list? (See home barista link below)

plenty of folks on this thread comparing atleast for medium and dark roasts - aligned Vario and Forte indistinguishable in cup from monolith, EK43, etc and easily best Niche Zero in any roast level. So much so Baratza is also considering releasing an upgrade package and guidance for people to align their varios. It's just an excellent grinder.

I understand if people have made the decision to go elsewhere but I personally also didn't believe this - then I did the procedure to my own Vario and I'm just blown away.

https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/baratza-vario-super-alignment-owner-experience-t60764.html


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Northern_Monkey said:


> @dfk41 - Also makes me wonder if he just happened to get a new sponsor around this time?... 😂


 Now you are talking......but don't spoil the illusion many want to have!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Sheedapistawl said:


> Are all these folks also on the bollocks list? (See home barista link below)
> 
> plenty of folks on this thread comparing atleast for medium and dark roasts - aligned Vario and Forte indistinguishable in cup from monolith, EK43, etc and easily best Niche Zero in any roast level. So much so Baratza is also considering releasing an upgrade package and guidance for people to align their varios. It's just an excellent grinder.
> 
> ...


 Sorry but we all have our opinions. the US forum you mention is a schill forum. One or two well respected senior members get delivery of a new bit of kit, big it up over a couple of weeks, regardless of how good or bad it is, produce a document, lock the thread and the faithful flock to buy them. According to one hack, the Bezzera Strega was the best lever machine available in the world. Through this declaration, dozens and dozens were sold. A certain person produced a video of himself nearly falling over with the quality of the shot he had just pulled. The same stunt was done on the Sette, and Vario....whats the favourite combo? A GS3 and some heap of shite grinder. It is a commercial forum in a country where the size of your balls are more important than what you can do with them.

If you want to take piecemeal advice from there, then please go ahead, but before you do, and bearing in mind the Forte etc have been available for years, why are there so few owners over here? Ceramic burrs might have something to do with it.......I agree it is a useful feature to be able t alignment small burrs and big burrs but please do not insult my intelligence by suggesting an adapted Vario/Forte can produce a shot equal to any of the big boys you care to mention..


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I skimmed over Rao's post and he seemed to be saying all of the EKs he used were very poorly aligned so that would explain it really. I don't believe he compared a properly aligned EK to an aligned forte....


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Matt Perger can be credited with providing the EK43 with a new lease of life wowing WBC judges back in 2013 using a bag spice/coffee grinder introduced in the 1980s and without any design changes since. He even managed to come second using stock Mk I coffee burrs generally accepted as not really suitable for producing espresso with lighter roasts. Mahlkonig were in the process of winding up production of the EK43 but the interest Perger generated led to a healthy spike in demand which hasn't abated.

Rao's comments should be taken with a pinch of salt. They are subjective not objective as he doesn't back them up with actual evidence. For example, would be interesting to see blind tests with shots produced on a well aligned EK vs ones from a poorly aligned model. Rao makes the point that that he went for the Forte because the EK couldn't grind fine enough. He doesn't mention Mahlkonig produce Turkish burrs which will grind so fine it will clog any espresso machine. Omissions like this are unhelpful.


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## Sheedapistawl (May 10, 2020)

It sounds like I offended you somehow, I certainly did not intend to. I am not suggesting that the "big boys" (which I understand to mean, more expensive equipment) are the same league as a Vario - I am simply saying that after this procedure, the Vario can produce grind consistency and espresso outputs on par with the big boys for certain types of coffees - those big boys offer other advantages lets not forget - EK is a commercial grade grinder, have you considered that maybe the money there is being spent on durability, capacity, throughput, and not just grind output? Same for the monolith - which is carefully aligned and precisely machined, all metal etc. There are non-grind output related factors that can explain a higher price point, is what I'm trying to say.

Secondly if you do a buildup of the costs to produce a unit of these "big boys" of course you will get nowhere near their MSRP - pricing is not purely related to the cost of components, or the R&D, its not like these manufacturers are slapping a flat X% margin on top of their all-in per unit cost - price signals tiers to the consumer, and is also a mechanism to capture consumer surplus because if someone is willing to pay $2000 for something, as a corporation you have an incentive to price at that point to capture it, and say whatever you can justify to back it up. I wouldn't be surprised if high end espresso grinder pricing is simple third degree price discrimination.

Sorry but we all have our opinions.

I agree, and my opinion, and that of ~30-40 people on that thread, is that a properly aligned Vario produces a grind quality far in excess of its price, has <0.2g retention/exchange and excellent after sales service, and seems to stay in alignment once aligned. In blind tasting with medium and dark roasted coffees, is indistinguishable from grinders far above its price point ( I have not tested this but others claim to have), whereas with lighter roasts, those more expensive grinders pull away.

Your other point is well taken, hey if its so good, why is it that more people do not have it, its been around for years after all

My response would be - if you look at these threads, it seems that a very enterprising user Jake G (who you suggested might be one of these "hacks" who is "shilling" for baratza), very recently (fall 2019) figured out the alignment challenge and posted a detailed guide for it. Since then many Vario/Forte owners who have performed the process successfully have reported back material improvements (I am one of them). I actually emailed Baratza about this, they confirmed they are following the thread and thinking of an upgrade/alignment guide with Forte parts to users, it is just hampered by the coronavirus a little bit right now.

"in a country where the size of your balls are more important than what you can do with them."

I wanted to address this because I feel this is an unfair, discriminatory statement that does not help the discussion - I'm sure you would not like sweeping generalizations to be made of your country and its people.

I hope your response is to not continue with insults, I'll be happy to engage in a discussion and share what I know as well as learn from you all. If you do respond with more insults, I've said what I came here to say, readers can make their own conclusions, if you want to spend $700 for a mid-tier grinder (NZ) and believe its better, or $2700 for an EK43, which is an excellent top tier grinder dont get me wrong (I've tried it several times at local shops), and continue to believe that these grinders' grind output significantly better than, a refurbished Vario/Forte (which can be had for $300 to $400)....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Sheedapistawl

Nothing insulting in what I said matey.....if I am wrong with my appraisal of that forum show me where and I will gladly supply what I consider to be evidence, and unless I am mistaken, the impression you seemed to give was that an adjusted Vario/Forte produced results just as good if not better than (and you named a few top end grinders).....I disagree 100%......but of course, your opinion is as valid as my opinion and until either is tested in a court of law, remain so


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## Sheedapistawl (May 10, 2020)

Thank you! I will concede, I'm not American but I live in America, folks are pretty enthusiastic here and sometimes that can not help objective determinations.

but I gotta say guys, if one of the coffee jedis on here like you all, has the Vario or Forte as well as a high end grinder and cares to do this alignment (one one and then the other) and then does a comparison (unaligned vs aligned on both), that could be very cool to see! Personally I don't even know what that could look like - blind tasting I don't fully agree with as a test protocol, taste is a reaction between the cup and your mouth chemistry, plenty of trained sommeliers in controlled trials can't distinguish between wines (source). Perhaps some measurement mechanism that plots particle size and distribution for multiple grinders?

if your opinion pans out and all these folks are overreacting and actually we find yeah there is some jump but not close to High end grinders, great - good vote of confidence for higher end grinders.

but just imagine, it would be so interesting if the jump in grind output and taste even gets close, all else held equal... mask off for all the $$$$ folks...

full disclosure: I'm a noob with a vario and Gaggia classic, im here to learn!


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## Dave double bean (Mar 31, 2020)

dboggel said:


> Thanks Dave, I didn't even need to read between the lines ? Thanks for pointing out something that would most definitely drive me nuts after malfunctioning so many times. I read up about the Baratza Sette 270Wi, which I had my eye on from a design perspective, but loads of complaints as well regarding malfunctions.


There is an upside to those earlier problematic production runs, and that's second hand prices have tanked, so noobs like me get a taster for what s decent grinder can do for throwaway money ( relatively ) . The Sette also is worktop friendly, worthy of a punt, I'd say so

Sent from my HD1913 using Tapatalk


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Matt Perger can be credited with providing the EK43 with a new lease of life wowing WBC judges back in 2013 using a bag spice/coffee grinder introduced in the 1980s and without any design changes since. He even managed to come second using stock Mk I coffee burrs generally accepted as not really suitable for producing espresso with lighter roasts. Mahlkonig were in the process of winding up production of the EK43 but the interest Perger generated led to a healthy spike in demand which hasn't abated.
> 
> Rao's comments should be taken with a pinch of salt. They are subjective not objective as he doesn't back them up with actual evidence. For example, would be interesting to see blind tests with shots produced on a well aligned EK vs ones from a poorly aligned model. Rao makes the point that that he went for the Forte because the EK couldn't grind fine enough. He doesn't mention Mahlkonig produce Turkish burrs which will grind so fine it will clog any espresso machine. Omissions like this are unhelpful.


 Perger followed Rao with respect to using the EK-43, Rao was talking about high EK-43 extractions in 2009. So there's no reason why either should be viewed as more/less credible than the other.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> One or two well respected senior members get delivery of a new bit of kit, big it up over a couple of weeks, regardless of how good or bad it is, produce a document, lock the thread and the faithful flock to buy them.


 i thought that was this forum?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Sheedapistawl said:


> Has the Vario or Forte as well as a high end grinder and cares to do this alignment


 I've got a Vario but was considering upgrading to a Niche - firstly for the seemless switching between espresso and filter especially as WFH looks to become a much more common thing and secondly to see if there was an improvement in cup quality.

I'm a bit confused and not really in the mood to read 75 pages on HB, can you link me directly to the mod you did? And just to confirm you haven't swapped the bottom burr carrier for the metal forte one?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

aaronb said:


> i thought that was this forum?


 Howay Aaronb........that is slightly over the top! Of course every forum has its bias but I am struggling to think of the last heavily promoted thing on this forum that nose dived.....and neither does the habit of begging something up then locking a thread happen......other than that, spot on!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Sorry but we all have our opinions. the US forum you mention is a schill forum. One or two well respected senior members get delivery of a new bit of kit, big it up over a couple of weeks, regardless of how good or bad it is, produce a document, lock the thread and the faithful flock to buy them. According to one hack, the Bezzera Strega was the best lever machine available in the world. Through this declaration, dozens and dozens were sold. A certain person produced a video of himself nearly falling over with the quality of the shot he had just pulled. The same stunt was done on the Sette, and Vario....whats the favourite combo? A GS3 and some heap of shite grinder. It is a commercial forum in a country where the size of your balls are more important than what you can do with them.
> 
> If you want to take piecemeal advice from there, then please go ahead, but before you do, and bearing in mind the Forte etc have been available for years, why are there so few owners over here? Ceramic burrs might have something to do with it.......I agree it is a useful feature to be able t alignment small burrs and big burrs but please do not insult my intelligence by suggesting an adapted Vario/Forte can produce a shot equal to any of the big boys you care to mention..


 All forums for better or worse are a function, influenced by the loudest voices on them, whether those voices are getting review machines or not. Sometimes it's just a result of people talking about the gear they own or relationships they have formed with people providing them gear. Some of these relationships are often more transparent than others.

This forum is no different.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

The home barista experiments always seem geared towards a proof of concept which is something along the lines of "all good grinders can be dialled in to produce espresso shots that are approximately equal". It doesn't matter how much coffee it takes to dial these grinders in, or what ratio the shots have to be pulled to to get them to taste good, the only thing that matters is how the total scoring of acidity, sweetness, clarity, body compares to another grinder and which shots tasters prefer. Their titan grinder project showed that the Rancillio Rocky could be dialled in to produce shots that were at least in some ways preferable to shots from a Robur....they didn't conclude that the Rocky was a better grinder, just that you can spend 20 minutes and 1kg dialling it in to get a good shot. I have no doubt that a perfectly aligned grinder with decent burrs can be dialled in the produce perfectly tasty shots, and that in some cases these may be preferable to another more expensive grinder depending on preference, but that doesn't mean much.


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## Sheedapistawl (May 10, 2020)

aaronb said:


> I've got a Vario but was considering upgrading to a Niche - firstly for the seemless switching between espresso and filter especially as WFH looks to become a much more common thing and secondly to see if there was an improvement in cup quality.
> 
> I'm a bit confused and not really in the mood to read 75 pages on HB, can you link me directly to the mod you did? And just to confirm you haven't swapped the bottom burr carrier for the metal forte one?


 Point number 2. On the below post has links to video and text/photo guidance. I'd did not swap any of the parts. I did not take the burrs out of their carriers - basically I just did a pre ink test, took the grinder apart, took out the core motor and grind assembly, performed the procedure, did the post ink-test to verify with the grinder still disassembled (you can manually spin the burrs while touching) to verify and put it back together. I just had to ensure while putting it back together that the levers were going the full range a few times because my coarse adjustment screw was not tight but other than that no problems.

try it out if you run into problems the HB guys are super helpful


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/Coffee/comments/gv0c76


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## viveur (Oct 22, 2017)

dboggel said:


> Recently started my promestic journey in coffee. Currently use a manual grinder, but am looking for an electric upgrade that will suffice for a good few years. I'm on the fence between going for a Mahlkonig Vario with ceramic burrs (seems sturdy, reliable and great longevity) and the Niche Zero.
> 
> The latter is considerably more expensive. There are loads of reviews on the Niche and everyone seems sold, but cannot find any direct comparisons. Is there anybody on this forum with hands on experience for both? I'm mainly pulling espresso and flat whites for now, but am looking to add pour-over to the arsenal as well.


 I have a Vario - but I don't have a Niche Zero, so I can only give you one side of the story.

For Espresso, I can't recommend the Vario - at least if you want to use light roasts. Out of the box, I could not go fine enough for Espresso (to repeat: I'm using light roasts, mainly from Tim Wendelboe) - although I was able to fix that by twiddling the calibration screw - which requires removing a "warranty void if removed" sticker (I believe the Baratza version doesn't have this sticker, but the Mahlkoenig version does). Next problem: the grind gets successively coarser when doing back to back shots, so if I'm doing 3 shots in a row (e.g guest visiting), I have to go one notch finer for every shot - wait an hour, and I need to move back to the original setting. That's OK if you know you have to do it, but not that fun to figure out - perhaps upgrading to the metal burr carrier will help, I have a theory that the burr carrier is expanding due to heat/friction. Taste is reasonable, but my OE Pharos is much better and more consistent for espresso. [I might be considered OTT when it comes to espresso though, since I'm upgrading to a Monolith Max soon...]

For Filter it's a great grinder, and I can't really complain. I can easily move back and forward from FP to Filter settings, the tastes are good, I'm happy. I'm getting tastes just as good as the better coffee shops, so it's certainly a strong grinder (but it will certainly be possible to improve on that - I just don't care enough about filter yet). And I suspect there's room for improvement with the burr carrier and alignment modifications (which I'm planning to do once my Monolith arrives - which is admittedly pointless since the Monolith will always beat the Vario, but I'd prefer to keep the Monolith dedicated to Espresso and Vario for filter).

As I said, I do have a Pharos, and I suspect it's comparable to the Niche Zero (similar burrs and all that), but I've never actually tried the Pharos for filter, so I can't really compare those two either. For Espresso I'd take the Pharos (or Niche) over the Vario any day, but I have no idea how they compare for filter.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I tested a Vario, long time ago now and I wasn't very impressed even though I was personally convinced it was going to be excellent and looking forward to it. The review was for Bella Barista, sadly they still sold loads in spite of a bad review.. I don't know if it's been improved since but I doubt very much it comes even close to a Niche Zero.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwin85PA5e3pAhXyTBUIHSxtBdEQFjABegQICxAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bellabarista.co.uk%2Fpdf%2Fcompactgrinder1closerlookv3.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2rBx126e9xZI9mzpnJmPfM

The review still appears to be there after all these years, it was done some months after the Vario was released just over 10 years ago. The problems had not started and the fanboys were in full flow. I got a fair bit of hate for the review....such is life.


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## Sheedapistawl (May 10, 2020)

I mean all you guys are grumping about a stock Vario - the comparison to Niche I was talking about is a "hyperaligned" Vario. Out of the box for some reason the bottom burr is aligned quite well and can be used as a reference to align the top burr, per Baratza support when this procedure is done within 5 microns which is already world class alignment

here is a thread of owner after owner sharing experience about the dramatic jump in quality. We (myself included) can't all hallucinate the jump visually in grind quality and in taste in cup! 

as for workflow, 18g in, RDT for only certain coffees, 18g out less than 0.1g of retenion/exchange with stock hopper; no WDT just level tamp and go -

https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/baratza-vario-super-alignment-owner-experience-t60764.html


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Sheedapistawl said:


> I mean all you guys are grumping about a stock Vario - the comparison to Niche I was talking about is a "hyperaligned" Vario.


 I thought the Vario wasn't very good but you and HB users seem to have been able to turn it into a totally different grinder. If so, that's great for owners who don't ever need to upgrade until it breaks, even then they can buy another one or keep repairing the one they have.

You should start a "hyperaligned Vario" owners thread. Then all the owners can join it and "hyperalign" their grinders. It would save a lot of people from expensive upgrades, large used Commercial grinders on their counter, custom wood bits or special covers and wiping devices. Even better, the only bragging rights would be the amount of "hyperalignment" achieved with a grinder accessible to all budgets.

I can think of a few on here that would be very supportive of such a thread, especially if you get people to run some comparisons with the Niche.

It's always nice to see innovation and owners pushing the boundaries of what's possible.


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## Dave double bean (Mar 31, 2020)

dboggel said:


> Thanks Dave, I didn't even need to read between the lines ? Thanks for pointing out something that would most definitely drive me nuts after malfunctioning so many times. I read up about the Baratza Sette 270Wi, which I had my eye on from a design perspective, but loads of complaints as well regarding malfunctions.


Regarding the 270Wi, they had issues with early production runs from a factory in Turkey, the gears were poorly manufactured and the bearing runners snapped. They haven't havld the same issues since and I believe they changed factories in 2017. Coffee Hit have a new batch of motors coming in and they are sending me one for my Wi.

The short time I had it I thought it was superb, as it should be for a 500 quid grinder. I have. Eureka now and it's great, going to run a side by side when I get the motor and keep the one I prefer.

Sent from my HD1913 using Tapatalk


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@DavecUK - Would be interesting to see how other people get in with the results, read the HB threads and was a wee bit sceptical but that could just be me?

I do wonder why the manufacturer doesn't do the hyper alignment in assembly, so they have a world beating grinder at an accessible price point. They would sell loads of them! 🤷‍♂️


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Northern_Monkey said:


> @DavecUK - Would be interesting to see how other people get in with the results, read the HB threads and was a wee bit sceptical but that could just be me?
> 
> I do wonder why the manufacturer doesn't do the hyper alignment in assembly, so they have a world beating grinder at an accessible price point. They would sell loads of them! 🤷‍♂️


 Makes you wonder doesn't it. Perhaps they don't read the HB forum, value the user input, or don't want to steal sales from their more expensive grinders....can't think of any other reason why...perhaps some reason I have not thought of.  I did consider that it might reflect badly on their grinders to admit they are not well aligned, or they know that said grinders, because of the motor, belt, burr, configuration are not able to stay "hyperaligned". However, if that was the case I am sure the HB owners would have discovered and tested for that. Admittedly, I didn't read all 42 pages and there was no precis I saw.

I wait with interest for the "Hyperalignment" thread, comparisons with the Niche and you never know, comparisons with other grinders like old commercial grinders.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Vario always was, and always will be a pile of shite. The fact that in any arena, there are people who love to swim against the flow and promote crap, even if it is hyperaligned. Where have I hard this before (EK43?). Would it not be simpler just to sort the bloody thing out? And as for the HB boards......how many people have a GS3then pair it with a Vario or Sette.....the answer, flipping thousands. In case folks are not aware of this weird coffee theory, then the machine is just an oven in the sense that it cooks whatever you put in. You cannot put in cheap beef skirt, press a button and out pops a Fillet Mignon.......


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## Dave double bean (Mar 31, 2020)

What's the difference between

'hyperaligned'

And

'aligned' ?

And does the hypering improve the coffee?

Sent from my HD1913 using Tapatalk


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dave double bean said:


> What's the difference between
> 
> 'hyperaligned'
> 
> ...


 One make someone feel better about the coffee they make ...


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Dave double bean said:


> What's the difference between
> 
> 'hyperaligned'
> 
> ...


 Hyperaligned is when everything works perfectly and is stunningly sensitive to outside forces, forcing it into mere alignment, and then after that misalignment. Just laying a finger on the grinder is likely enough to do this, god knows what actually grinding beans does. Alignment is actually misalignment compared to hyperalignment.

Hyperalignment gives you bragging rights of inventing a new term in the dictionary as well as letting you pull something called hyper espresso shots. They give you the amazing ability to shove your head up your ass.


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## Dave double bean (Mar 31, 2020)

Blimey, and I thought the world of hifi was full of woo and magic cables and stuff

Sent from my HD1913 using Tapatalk


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Rob1 said:


> Hyperaligned is when everything works perfectly and is stunningly sensitive to outside forces, forcing it into mere alignment, and then after that misalignment. Just laying a finger on the grinder is likely enough to do this, god knows what actually grinding beans does. Alignment is actually misalignment compared to hyperalignment.
> 
> Hyperalignment gives you bragging rights of inventing a new term in the dictionary as well as letting you pull something called hyper espresso shots. They give you the amazing ability to shove your head up your ass.


 I have cups made from unobtanium so my espresso is always the best


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dave double bean said:


> Blimey, and I thought the world of hifi was full of woo and magic cables and stuff
> 
> Sent from my HD1913 using Tapatalk


 You can really taste the fraction of a micron difference ...


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@Dave double bean - It does get a bit like that sometimes... 😉

My personal favourite is when people say they have 100% or full alignment across all planes/axial combinations as an absolute and not measured to a certain level of accuracy.

They must have super duper precise engineering standards, including motors with no run out, uniform material expansion across temperature ranges and all constructed from materials with an almost infinite level of rigidity...


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## Dave double bean (Mar 31, 2020)

Yep, I've seen a difference in my coffees getting the temps right, being 10° out is huge , or buying a decent grinder, fresh beans, big things

Why people are buying grinders from a manufacturer who can't be bothered to get things right in a factory is beyond me, I certainly wouldn't want to go down the rabbit hole of tweaking things to that degree, just buy something made properly in the first place .

Sent from my HD1913 using Tapatalk


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> I have cups made from unobtanium


 Where can I get some??


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Where can I get some??


 I have some but you can't have them.....If I did sell them to you, they, by definition, would no longer be unobtanium and hence fall massively in value.

Now don't get me wrong but I sense people are not treating "Hyperalignment" with the reverence it deserves vs alignment, or perfectly aligned. It also makes a change to read a vario thread of 42 pages on "Hyperalignment" rather than 1000s of posts (some people even post multiple times) saying of how great Bartzas customer service is and how wonderful it is that they keep sending out spare parts. That just gets old, I know they have the best customer service in the business.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Where can I get some??


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## Sheedapistawl (May 10, 2020)

Guys rather than taking swipes at terminology who cares that they call it hyperalignment ? You need to refer to the DIY process and the state it gets you in - as for staying in alignment, I've done the whiteboard marker twice in 2 months of daily use and it has stayed in alignment.

Baratza is well aware of this process - they are actually working on a guide and parts (metal grind chamber and metal burr carriers borrowed from Forte) for people to upgrade and do this process to their varios with. Even the coffee tech I spoke to last month to pickup a used espresso machine, he knew about this process and agreed it causes a big jump in grind quality.

why don't they do it at the factory? Same reason only about 10% of EK43s are aligned (from Scott Rao). It's a labor intensive process with the grinder design, and labor is expensive in the Us, and I agree probably also some good old fashioned price discrimination - can't sell the higher end grinders if the Vario is putting our equivalent grinds.

ill start an owners thread with some photos and video of workflow showing zero retention - perhaps if other users here can do comparisons it will be good to see, particularly comparisons to the Niche. I myself am getting an Anfim Super Caimano Barista with 75 mm Ti coated burrs, I'll post comparisons as well. I am legitimately thinking there will be no significant diff in cup beyond ceramic burrs in Vario and steels in Anfim


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Sheedapistawl said:


> . I am legitimately thinking there will be no significant diff in cup beyond ceramic burrs in Vario and steels in Anfim


 Start off on the wrong foot! If any 75mm burr set does not taste significantly better than a 54mm burr set, ceramic or otherwise, then there is something seriously wrong! At best, the Vario can be described as average. Why on earth would anyone settle for an average performer in their collection? The fact it is held in high esteem over the pond is a mystery over here, there agin, a lot of things of dubious quality seem to be heavily promoted by those who sit on pedestals where no doubt they receive financial benefits for endorsements.......oh dear, am I being cynical again


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## Dave double bean (Mar 31, 2020)

Sheedapistawl said:


> Guys rather than taking swipes at terminology who cares that they call it hyperalignment ? You need to refer to the DIY process and the state it gets you in - as for staying in alignment, I've done the whiteboard marker twice in 2 months of daily use and it has stayed in alignment.
> 
> Baratza is well aware of this process - they are actually working on a guide and parts (metal grind chamber and metal burr carriers borrowed from Forte) for people to upgrade and do this process to their varios with. Even the coffee tech I spoke to last month to pickup a used espresso machine, he knew about this process and agreed it causes a big jump in grind quality.
> 
> ...


So they are 'selling' stuff to people to turn a seemingly average grinder onto one they claim to be a world beater is that right?

Firstly I get that, I've always spent silly money on stuff for fun, hifi cars, whatever, and yes the terminology is irrelevant really , hyperaligment is all rather silly.

Is this sticking an air filter on Corsa and and claiming another 30bhp, or is it a new turbo on a Scooby? Sounds like it does something and it's their money I suppose

Sent from my HD1913 using Tapatalk


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## Sheedapistawl (May 10, 2020)

I appreciate the skepticism, I was one myself, until I did this to my own vario, and I the jump in the cup was the same I got from moving from a delonghi EC155 (modded) to a gaggia (or modding the stock Gaggia with OPV mods, IMS baskets, etc.)

Let me start an owners thread, will also post some videos and photos. we can humm and haww but without more data points even the skepticism is conjecture.


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

Dave double bean said:


> So they are 'selling' stuff to people to turn a seemingly average grinder onto one they claim to be a world beater is that right?
> 
> Firstly I get that, I've always spent silly money on stuff for fun, hifi cars, whatever, and yes the terminology is irrelevant really , hyperaligment is all rather silly.
> 
> ...


 Wouldn't a new filter make it Fina, not Corsa? 😹


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@Sheedapistawl - You might be right about it giving great results. I could see the attraction if you are already a Vario owner happy to have a play around or change it up a bit since it is a sunk cost.

Personally I would have a hard time spending £400 on a new grinder which I know would not give the results I want as stock, especially as there is a chance it wouldn't work or I break a plastic component/housing.

Niche would win out for me on a risk to reward basis, better looks, metal body and a commercial standard burr set that is super easy to both clean and adjust.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

It's threads like this that prove how stupid I am. All these years after upgrading from an Iberital MC2, trying a Eureka Mignon, Ceado E8, Lido E, Pharos and finally a Niche. I saw a gigantic leap in quality from the MC2 to the Mignon, then again to the E8. Lido was good enough and different, and I liked the difference, and upgraded to a Pharos and a Niche when I got sick of hand grinding. BUT WHO KNEW? The only think I needed to do was work out some alignment procedure for the MC2 and I'd have got myself a world beating grinder right from the outset. It would have matched the perfectly aligned Lido and the perfectly aligned Pharos easily.....but wait the Pharos was better than the Lido. I must be missing something.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

This is appropriate from the great Tom Baker


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## Sheedapistawl (May 10, 2020)

Honestly, like I said, I am also skeptical of some of the more outlandish claims, however so many people who get into espresso or want to, are told by these forums to either spend a lot of money, or build contraptions on used commercial grinders to get decent results, I think aligning a vario is a cheap way to get very good results, I thought this forum might celebrate that!

Like I said: I havent made those comparisons, other folks I have, I only know what I experience: a massive jump in quality, and my vario is an effective zero-retention single doser for me. My comparisons so far only stretch to neighboring coffee shops (1 has an EK43, another has a super jolly) - many things involved with comparisons and that are not fair (coffee, barista, workflow bla bla, who knows how well those grinders are maintained/aligned) but I prefer coffee at home a lot more than at cafes these days, thanks to the Vario.

At the suggestion of a user here, I started a new owner experience thread - I also posted photos and a video of the workflow, feedback welcome:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/53338-baratza-varioforte-alicorn-or-alignment-procedure-owners-experience-thread/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=759441&embedComment=759441&embedDo=findComment#comment-759441


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## oskuk (Oct 20, 2020)

Hah.

Still I'm a bit angry for myself to being one of the sheeps
got into Vario-scam. Never being so sorry not another purchase on coffee world.
First was the "super-easy to change the grind"-stuff. Just bullshit. It was no easy, and the positions never were in the same planet.
And the rubbery sturdiness! Fast the grinder got stuck on halfway to espresso as burrs got tilted as plastics bend.

And really after all got the fact of the quality on their faces, then started the "glorius support!"-singing.
Here in Finland there were no parts, and if tried from US, the posting was hilarious.
"But they help you repair and tune our stuff" that really needs both -all the time!
After Vario came the Vario version 1.2, but ouch, it was 2x the price, called Forte.
"We took the customer-feedback and their testings and made a bit better one, haha!"

Ok. I got my relief when a bit more expensive than Vario, Eureka 65e came to my desk.
And: this still was cheaper than the Forte! 😉


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

oskuk said:


> Hah.
> 
> Still I'm a bit angry for myself to being one of the sheeps
> got into Vario-scam. Never being so sorry not another purchase on coffee world.
> ...


 At the time, when the Vario came to market, it had no competitors. It suited he home market well, and it was very easy to adjust in comparison to the alternatives. Besides, you could go from espresso to brew. This did not existed for the home market back then. However.... it didn't come with its reliability issues, and the build quality at the start at least was dubious. Plastic, plastic and more plastic.

what did exist was the internet, and the ability to check for independent reviews. One of the reasons that, back in 2011/2012 (can't remember exactly) I bought and Eureka Mignon instead.

The 65E seems like a great grinder. People who own them really like them.

Welcome to the forum.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I had a 65E. Got it to upgrade from a Mazzer Mini doser. I loved that grinder! It had a wee light that shone into the basket so you could see it filling up. It had a lovely smooth adjuster knob that worked a treat and felt smooth like a Technics amplifier volume knob. After the Mazzer, popping the top burr off without losing setting was a revelation. It was probably better than my E37S for hitting the same dose to 0.1g and it wasn't too noisy. It was reasonably tall though and took 10 seconds for 18g (depending on bean). Using it was nicer than the Mazzer and even the E37S if I'm honest, although I get deeper flavours (subjective) and 5 second grind times (immutable fact) with the Ceado. There are times I wish I'd gone for the 75E as a halfway between 65E and E37S.

I never had a Vario although I knew people that did. Back in 2013 it was the Niche of its day, when almost everyone seemed to be clamouring for one grinder to do brew and espresso. It was popular and in a class of 1 at the time (or appeared to be). It pretty much took until the Niche came out many years later to beat it in the same "brewed-to-espresso low retention kitchen friendly" space. Obviously the Niche is much better engineered and streets ahead in every respect, but it didn't exist back when the Vario was king of the hill.

Back then, if you only wanted to do espresso, it was Mignon if you don't tinker, Mazzer SJ/Major and remove the hopper and doser if you like to mod. By concentrating on espresso only, you could achieve much better results with a slightly modded ex commercial in the half-a- grand or under price bracket.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I wrote this a long time ago now, March 2010 to be precise. Even though I had concerns and expressed them in the review, BB still found the Vario sold very well. People seemed to ignore the review, such was the power of positive opinion on the internet

Compact Grinder Review

the link downloads a .pdf file.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

hotmetal said:


> I'm honest, although I get deeper flavours (subjective) and 5 second grind times (immutable fact) with the Ceado. There are times I wish I'd gone for the 75E as a halfway between 65E and E37S.


 I thought the Speciality 75E I had on load for a little while was an excellent grinder and didn't want to give it back... If you want to run with beans in the hopper.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Was that the slow one@DavecUK ? 900rpm? I really would've liked one of those, missed the boat on the slow one by which time the E37S came out and there were forum deals to be had.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

hotmetal said:


> Was that the slow one@DavecUK ? 900rpm? I really would've liked one of those, missed the boat on the slow one by which time the E37S came out and there were forum deals to be had.


 That was the Olympus 75E, has the same burrs as the Mythos and yes the 900 rpm speed. Eureka later bought out the wonderfully named Hi Speed version, as if grind speed was a big thing. I'm pretty sure it was cheaper to manufacture the "Hi Speed" version. I've always found (my opinion of course) that lower burr speed is beneficial. With flats it's tricky below certain RPMs but 900 was a good speed. It was a fairly chunky grinder though...


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## Sheedapistawl (May 10, 2020)

Sorry others experiences haven't been stellar . Here in the US, Baratzas support is honestly the best customer support experiences I've ever had - fast, responsive, and they just send you free parts no questions asked.

secondly, I have continued modding my Vario. Over the stock version, it now has the forte grind chamber and upper burr carrier installed. 3D printer sanded down spacers and Ditting brew burrs. It can match my Anfim in terms of extraction yield, and my Anfim has 75mm TiN mythos burrs also in great alignment. The Vario produces A style of espresso similar to the EK with dittings - no fines to speak of, shots run fast and need to be profiled. I prefer the Varios shots over my Anfim.

punchline is I am consistently getting 22% EY at 2:1 ratios out of my Vario, and can easily hit 24% at 2.3-2.4:1 and higher ratios. These are numbers more closely associated with the small monolith (the Max can pull 24-27% easily and even at lower ratios).

talking to so many happy Vario owners - the stock machine is good, but modded and aligned, it is a single dosing zero retention monster grinder.


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## oskuk (Oct 20, 2020)

On those Eurekas: Has somebody tried to put those Olympus 75mm burrs on 65e? If the chamber is same, then easy way is buy the 75:s lover burr carrier and the burrs. I did send question to Italy on this, to shop who make mods on Simonelli Oscar so I was thinking they might answer if it is the case 😉


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Sheedapistawl said:


> punchline is I am consistently getting 22% EY at 2:1 ratios out of my Vario, and can easily hit 24% at 2.3-2.4:1 and higher ratios. These are numbers more closely associated with the small monolith (the Max can pull 24-27% easily and even at lower ratios).


 Don't you mean 1:2 ratio? If you're getting EYs of 22% for ristretto shots, your Vario is in a league of its own.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sheedapistawl said:


> The Vario produces A style of espresso similar to the EK with dittings - no fines to speak of, shots run fast and need to be profiled. I prefer the Varios shots over my Anfim.
> 
> punchline is I am consistently getting 22% EY at 2:1 ratios out of my Vario, and can easily hit 24% at 2.3-2.4:1 and higher ratios. These are numbers more closely associated with the small monolith (the Max can pull 24-27% easily and even at lower ratios).


 How do you know that there are no fines?

27%EY easily, this sounds a bit dubious with a decent refractometer & good protocol.

What is your average extraction at 1:2.3/4?


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## Sheedapistawl (May 10, 2020)

I meant yield:dose when I said 2:1 not sure if you guys use a different convention

other questions:

How do you know that there are no fines?

answer: just visually - and shot has very thin body, runs fast, cup has no fines left, crema dissipates quickly

27%EY easily, this sounds a bit dubious with a decent refractometer & good protocol.

answer: not my result, but from another MAX owner, with a VST refractometer and a filtered 3:1 shot

What is your average extraction at 1:2.3/4?

2.3-2.4 yield to 1 dose (to be clear) - usually baseline 22% for light roasts, good puck prep and more soluble roasts easily 24% - I can push to 25% if puck prep is immaculate and through profiling gymnastics but usually that's the astringency wall atleast for my taste on the coffees I drink

Anfim does the same but much thicker mouthfeel - Vario has high clarity thin body shots


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## oskuk (Oct 20, 2020)

oskuk said:


> On those Eurekas: Has somebody tried to put those Olympus 75mm burrs on 65e? If the chamber is same, then easy way is buy the 75:s lover burr carrier and the burrs. I did send question to Italy on this, to shop who make mods on Simonelli Oscar so I was thinking they might answer if it is the case 😉


 Well, got my answer:

"The grinding chambers between the Atom 65 and 75 are not the same and therefore the burrs are not interchangeable"


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## Sheedapistawl (May 10, 2020)

dfk41 said:


> Start off on the wrong foot! If any 75mm burr set does not taste significantly better than a 54mm burr set, ceramic or otherwise, then there is something seriously wrong! At best, the Vario can be described as average. Why on earth would anyone settle for an average performer in their collection? The fact it is held in high esteem over the pond is a mystery over here, there agin, a lot of things of dubious quality seem to be heavily promoted by those who sit on pedestals where no doubt they receive financial benefits for endorsements.......oh dear, am I being cynical again


 @DavecUK @dfk41 thought you guys might have some reactions to actual EY% from the modded vario - and comparisons to an overkill commercial grinder that was $2200 MSRP when it first came out - I've been talking to other owners, who have hit ~25% as well. Thoughts, reactions, more jokes?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Sheedapistawl said:


> @DavecUK @dfk41 thought you guys might have some reactions to actual EY% from the modded vario - and comparisons to an overkill commercial grinder that was $2200 MSRP when it first came out - I've been talking to other owners, who have hit ~25% as well. Thoughts, reactions, more jokes?


 If you are happy with the Vario, taste, workflow, EY etc.. that's great, and it certainly saves you from spending a lot of money on more expensive grinders.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sheedapistawl said:


> @DavecUK @dfk41 thought you guys might have some reactions to actual EY% from the modded vario - and comparisons to an overkill commercial grinder that was $2200 MSRP when it first came out - I've been talking to other owners, who have hit ~25% as well. Thoughts, reactions, more jokes?


 I'm lost in this , non one has said if any of this is tasty yet


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## Sheedapistawl (May 10, 2020)

@Mrboots2u tasty depends on the bean - very soluble medium and dark roasts, start to hit astringency at 22% EY on normale (1:2) shots, others harder to extract lighter roasted denser beans to me taste best at longer ratios 1:2.5-ish at 24-25% - taste is subjective to a degree, extraction yield measurements at ratios are a bit more objective measure. Whats been really nice is to explore well developed roasts that taste different kinds of fantastic at higher extraction and varied ratios - I typically grind very fine about 1 step away from burr touch point, shots on the Vario run fast similar to the EKspresso style of extraction and benefits from a profiling machine with pre-infusion at low flow and taper at the end.

This is also paired with VST baskets, and a 58.5MM fitted leveling LevTamp tamper - which also boosts extraction.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sheedapistawl said:


> @Mrboots2u tasty depends on the bean - very soluble medium and dark roasts, start to hit astringency at 22% EY on normale (1:2) shots, others harder to extract lighter roasted denser beans to me taste best at longer ratios 1:2.5-ish at 24-25% - taste is subjective to a degree, extraction yield measurements at ratios are a bit more objective measure. Whats been really nice is to explore well developed roasts that taste different kinds of fantastic at higher extraction and varied ratios - I typically grind very fine about 1 step away from burr touch point, shots on the Vario run fast similar to the EKspresso style of extraction and benefits from a profiling machine with pre-infusion at low flow and taper at the end.
> 
> This is also paired with VST baskets, and a 58.5MM fitted leveling LevTamp tamper - which also boosts extraction.


 Surely the more soluble beans hit a higher extraction. You're getting a significant jump in extraction for only 25% more output, so these light roasts must be pretty soluble too.

If you have 1% span on what tastes best then you can't be brewing a typical range of beans.


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@Mrboots2u - Completely agree with you, all this extraction yield willy waving that Scott Rao is helping fuel has gotten a bit ridiculous.

Really moved past what I think coffee should be about, do love the tech but it is an experience at the end of the day not just "how strong can I make this shot".

I would be very interested to hear just how many kilos of coffee, wasted shots, plastic syringe filters it took to achieve a 1% grouping across beans, varieties and styles of lighter roast. Also the stats to back it up and the controls in place to ensure it is repeatable by other people...


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## Sheedapistawl (May 10, 2020)

I didnt follow your comment -

I'm saying for medium roasts - I prefer a 2:1 ratio - brix registers in the 10.5% to 13% range which at that ratio implies 20-22% EY

For lighter roasts, I usually do longer e.g., 3:1 - brix% registers in the 9 to 9.8%-ish range which is the 23% to 25% EY range.

Some coffees taste better at the low end of those bands, others better at the high end of those bands.


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## Sheedapistawl (May 10, 2020)

For the record, since I presume you are fans of the Monolith and EK43 type of grinders, and Titus/Dennis of alignment fame, the principle goal large flats are chasing at the top end of the market is the ability to extraction high TDS% at any ratio from 1:1.5 to 1:3

Wasted kilos of coffee - none, I have a profiling machine, I basically do not change my grinders (both of them) grind fine, dose low, and profile to adjust the shot

wasted shots - rarely, usually dialed in within 2-3 shots on a new coffee

but I understand the resistance...it is difficult to accept a lower cost solution can produce results at the high end with a few simple mods - sometimes it happens. I empathize with you -  we can be happy with what we have while also accepting there are things like this out in the world, comparison is the death of joy. I am merely posting here for new comers to get a diversity of opinions, and also opinions backed by some objective (albeit anonymous internet facts). There are no labs, academic institutions, or third party reports studying this stuff, all we have is the opinions of strangers and a few personalities.

Or you can think all those voices are wrong, and continue to believe what makes you happy, absolutely nothing wrong with that. On my end, since you mentioned taste, I'm having the best coffee of my life, in 10 years of drinking coffee in cafes across the 9 cities I've lived in, in that time, nothing comes close to what I can produce in my kitchen. Peace!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sheedapistawl said:


> I didnt follow your comment -
> 
> I'm saying for medium roasts - I prefer a 2:1 ratio - brix registers in the 10.5% to 13% range which at that ratio implies 20-22% EY
> 
> ...


 That's different to what you said previously, but sounds more reasonable.

2%EY is still a tiny span when considering coffees from CR, Guatemala, Colombia, Rwanda & Kenya for example.

If your refractometer reads in brix, give your figures in brix, we can do the rest.


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@Sheedapistawl - It was more about about how many shots are you using to get such tight EY groupings, how many replicates are you doing for the measurements to be that consistent with such different beans. How many plastic filters are you using for refractometer EY Readings, but it looks like you are doing TDS instead.

I am very pleased you are happy with your coffee to that degree, but I'm still not convinced a 130W mainly plastic grinder which costs £430 as a base unit, then needs a whole bunch of mods and extra parts is the right answer.

I have an EK43 Turkish and an E61 machine with flow profiling, I use quite a wide range of grind settings based on the bean. If I've understood it correctly you effectively seem to have a single grind option available to you that is fine enough, which does sound a bit limiting even with having a fancy profiling machine.

Good luck with converting other people, maybe if it becomes more common I can try a shot from one at a forum meet sometime down the road.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Northern_Monkey said:


> I am very pleased you are happy with your coffee to that degree, but I'm still not convinced a 130W mainly plastic grinder which costs £430 as a base unit, then needs a whole bunch of mods and extra parts is the right answer.


 FWIW the sift results for filter that I have seen for Vario with Ditting burrs are comparable to EK-43/OE Apex. Not saying that means they taste the same/worse/better, or that this translates directly to espresso, But even a Forte with Ditting burrs seems a cost effective way to get tight distributions (if that is a goal).


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

@Sheedapistawl did you filter your samples with a VST syringe filter and what refractometer are you using?


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