# My observations on the Niche Zero grinder



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

As promised I said that I would put my thoughts down about the niche grinder. I have had it on the bench for a few weeks now (DFK very kindly sent me one of his down to put it through its paces) and have compared and contrasted it with a jazzer royal, ek43 and a eureka mythos.

Design and function

First thing to say it that it is very small, is put together well and has been well thought out by the designer. The burrs are my favourite conical burrs and I rate them as very well made. The retention is exactly as it is marketed, pretty much zero. Changing between beans and brew methodology is simple and repeatable. it does what it says on the tin in terms of function. It is well priced and is a better grinder than other commercials within its price range.

The shape and design really is not to my preference, but i can see why it would appeal to the masses, my wife said that it looked like something kenwood would make, she also said that there was no way that she would have it in our kitchen, just thinks it looks dreadful! I don't think it looks that bad but it is not something that I like.

I wanted to strip it completely apart (but as it is not my grinder I decided not to) to have a look at the gearing mechanism, whether they are metal, composite or plastic as this will determine the life expectancy of the grinder, however as the burrs are under very little load due to very little weight of beans, this should not be an issue.

I do not like the fact that it only has an on off function, I would prefer to see a power on and off button in addition to the motor run switch. I suppose you can just lift the lid which isolates the power but this is not that practical, I also suppose that you can switch it off at the plug but I just feel it should be able to be isolated on the grinder itself (time will tell on the longevity of the light which is permanently on when plugged in).

As most of you are aware it is pretty easy to adjust, clean and remove the burrs, and all can be done within 5 minutes. I really like this practicality as it makes it easy for the end user to look after the grinder.

It is fairly quite and does not take too long to grind a dose of coffee, no more time really than single dosing a commercial grinder, except the ek43. I certainly did not feel as though I was waiting too long, the only time I noticed this was when making 10 drinks for friends that came round. After a couple of shots I reverted to the mythos and smashed out shot after shot with ease.

Grind Quality

This is the contentious part for me as this grinder has a wide spread of particle size and as a result you HAVE to shake and stir the grinds in order to get a decent pour. I separated a few shots in a row, taking the first 5 g, middle and last of a 15g dose. There is a noticeable difference in the grind size between each of the divided 5g batches, This is because of the way the grinder grinds and is intended to be used. Its a single dose grinder and as such without weight of bean on the burrs, the particle size increases from the start to the finish of each dose.

For me this is an issue as you have the whole routine of shaking the grinds and stirring in order to get a great pour. The results are much different when you load as many means as possible into the little hopper and then grind. The spread is much narrower and the ease of a quality pour much simpler. Compared to the no nonsense grinding of the mythos it is a ball ache. However the shot preparation for the ek43 is not so far removed, the main difference being is that multiple drinks are quicker and tastier with the EK. (it is 4 times the price though and huge)

That said you can't switch between beans on the mythos or the royal, or easily switch between brew methodology like you can on the niche.

In the cup

As I said I compared this grinder with 3 other grinders, I used three different roast levels and tasted both the espresso shots and how they did in milk.

Make no bones about it the niche is capable of Tasty coffee. I found that it muted the brighter side of lighter roasts and was not to my preference compared to the ek and mythos, the shots from the niche seemed to lose some of the sweetness, although retained a good body and were entirely drinkable.

With a darker roast it was great as I have come to expect from conical grinders (this is in my experience) chocolate and nutty tones come pouring through the shots (I must add that darker roasts are really not what I like). I still preferred the large flat burr shots from the other grinders, but once in milk you could not tell a great difference.

Summary

I enjoyed having the little niche on the bench, I used the EK43 in preference to it with medium or lighter roasts, I used the mythos for multiple drinks and in preference on shot quality for medium and lighter roasts. I do not like the styling of the Niche, it just looks cheap, however it is such a compact grinder, very kitchen friendly, can be stored away in a cupboard (which hides its looks







) is quiet and simple to use, is capable of tasty coffee and any brew methodology. The grind quality is questionable (I personally do not think that you should have to do as much prep as you are forced to do with the niche) but that comes with single dosing most grinders. You will save money in discarded coffee for sure. I have to purge a few grams out of the mythos each time I use it and this adds up over time. I don't really drink brewed coffee but this is where the niche comes into its own. You can switch between whichever brew method you like and go back to the previous brew method accurately, this alone makes it a good grinder for the home enthusiast wanting to explore all different coffees and methods.

Would I have one on my bench? NO not while I have an EK and I just prefer the push and go grinding of the royal or mythos for espresso everyday. But these are my thoughts based on my requirements and I am sure many readers will have different demands and different opinions.

I would however like to commend NICHE for bringing something new to the market and shaking up the competition


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## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

Sounds like it has achieved what it set out to do then. Thanks for taking the time, well worth reading. No I don't have one, still not sure whether I should, presently quite happy with what Mr Snakehips let me take on.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Thanks chap for what seems An honest and fair appraisal ,


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

Uh. Weird thing happens sometimes. I was going to write something very similar about grind quality (I promise)

As I told you in the other thread, I just received the grinder, I have to season the burrs well but I see an (expected) issue with the grinding. As you said the particle spread it's too wide due to single dosing with burrs that were not designed to do this (IMHO), so it happens you have to grind a lot of finer than you would do it with a grinder with a full hopper. This obviusly affects the coffee taste, because you end up with some big particles and some very fine particles.

The problem with this it's you cannot fix it just with stirring the grinds. This way you homogenize the particles across the puck but still have a very wide particle distribution.

I pulled some shots with the "hopper" just with 16g, and the hopper almost full (about 40) but only grinding 16. I have had shot time differences of more than 15", even 20" between the 2. (Faster for single dosing, slower for full hopper)


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## Paul K (May 11, 2018)

Well rounded comments for both + and -

Thanks for taking the time to write.


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## Sean (Jun 20, 2014)

Doesn't sound all that good. The low retention is obviously it's big draw, along with its size and price comparative to the bigger grinders. But without that grind quality/uniformity, I'm not sure what the fuss is about. It clearly has its USP(s) but does it justify the fanfare? As always, I guess it's down to individual needs and desires.

Disclaimer: I'm still looking forward to receiving mine as I have massive size restrictions for the short to medium term.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Sean said:


> Doesn't sound all that good. The low retention is obviously it's big draw, along with its size and price comparative to the bigger grinders. But without that grind quality/uniformity, I'm not sure what the fuss is about. It clearly has its USP(s) but does it justify the fanfare? As always, I guess it's down to individual needs and desires.
> 
> Disclaimer: I'm still looking forward to receiving mine as I have massive size restrictions for the short to medium term.


it may well suit all of your needs and do what YOU want it to do in the cup, lots o folk are happy with their niche.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

My question is whether a set of burrs could be designed for this that eliminate the issue of single dosing particle distribution


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

I'm enjoying mine but I endorse CCs comments. If I had the choice, I'd still rather have a Mythos. I like the darker coffees so it works for me but my methodology means the grind does get shaken up before it goes in the portafilter. I also agree (just from observation) that there is a much wider spread of grind sizes in the mix than a flat. It is obviously a domestic friendly design, more of an appliance than a tool. Might sell mine and the 65e and go for a Mythos.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

mctrials23 said:


> My question is whether a set of burrs could be designed for this that eliminate the issue of single dosing particle distribution


Not sure really, as many have modified all kinds of conic grinders and all pretty much do the same with particle size when single dosed. The issue is that the the burrs function best under a weight of bean that is pulled through the burrs uniformly. The is impossible when single dosing as the beans move about more as they get less, ending up in pop corning out of the burrs until finally ground through.

@dsc did an interesting experiment by doing bean by bean grinding, which I also carried out. I found that you had to grind a lot finer when doing this, but the uniformity was much better as each bean was ground similarly. However this takes bloody ages and is a complete ball ache. Not something I would like to do each time I used the grinder!


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## Sean (Jun 20, 2014)

I should also add, I prefer lighter roasts so I might be screwed altogether.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Rob666 said:


> I'm enjoying mine but I endorse CCs comments. If I had the choice, I'd still rather have a Mythos. I like the darker coffees so it works for me but my methodology means the grind does get shaken up before it goes in the portafilter. I also agree (just from observation) that there is a much wider spread of grind sizes in the mix than a flat. It is obviously a domestic friendly design, more of an appliance than a tool. Might sell mine and the 65e and go for a Mythos.


what is encouraging to see is that others had similar observations to me, it is also important that ALL observations are available to anyone potentially looking at this as an option. As I said, it will suit most peoples needs.


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## Sean (Jun 20, 2014)

Rob666 said:


> I'm enjoying mine but I endorse CCs comments. If I had the choice, I'd still rather have a Mythos. I like the darker coffees so it works for me but my methodology means the grind does get shaken up before it goes in the portafilter. I also agree (just from observation) that there is a much wider spread of grind sizes in the mix than a flat. It is obviously a domestic friendly design, more of an appliance than a tool. Might sell mine and the 65e and go for a Mythos.


I've always yearned for a Mythos or EK so may employ a similar tactic when I have more space. Still looking forward to trying a conical for the first time though.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Sean said:


> I should also add, I prefer lighter roasts so I might be screwed altogether.


Not at all, the niche still produces easy shots with light roasts, as others on the forum have attested to, it ws just not MY preference and I found I got more out of the the mythos and the EK. But putting that into perspective, both of those grinders are £2k!! unless you can snatch a cheeky deal for a few hundred quid used!!!!!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

May I ask... how does it compare to a Monolith conical, which is also a single dose grinder, with similar burrs? Doesn't the Monolith also suffer from the same issue regarding particle distribution?


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

Sean said:


> Doesn't sound all that good. The low retention is obviously it's big draw, along with its size and price comparative to the bigger grinders. But without that grind quality/uniformity, I'm not sure what the fuss is about. It clearly has its USP(s) but does it justify the fanfare? As always, I guess it's down to individual needs and desires.
> 
> Disclaimer: I'm still looking forward to receiving mine as I have massive size restrictions for the short to medium term.


Perhaps it will suits you well. A lot of people have been using Compak's K10 Barista modded to single dosing (especially US folks at HB forum) and in my view the quality must be very similar.



mctrials23 said:


> My question is whether a set of burrs could be designed for this that eliminate the issue of single dosing particle distribution


Don't think so it's possible. You would need to fit DRM burrs into the Niche. Not possible. Or have a burr carrier like the EK to provide a constant and consistent bean feed into the burrs.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

@Coffechap I was thinking this is only a £500 grinder but you have covered that above a little.. I would be interested how it compares to other grinders in similar price bracket ...


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

coffeechap said:


> Not at all, the niche still produces easy shots with light roasts, as others on the forum have attested to, it ws just not MY preference and I found I got more out of the the mythos and the EK. But putting that into perspective, both of those grinders are £2k!! unless you can snatch a cheeky deal for a few hundred quid used!!!!!


That's a very good point. Assuming you have the space for either an EK or a Mythos, was the coffee produced 4 times better in the cup?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> May I ask... how does it compare to a Monolith conical, which is also a single dose grinder, with similar burrs? Doesn't the Monolith also suffer from the same issue regarding particle distribution?


Getvthe monolith owners to try the same experiment I did? Perhaps @MildredM could oblige


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> Getvthe monolith owners to try the same experiment I did? Perhaps @MildredM could oblige


If dfk's Niche is on tour then it's welcome to spend an overnighter here


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Does the perfect grinder exist? if so, I have never seen it. If you single dose, then due to the nature of the fact there is no weight behind the beans you are going to suffer from article size difference, regardless of which grinder you have (except allegedly the EK but has that got its own foibles?).Personally I am not a big fan of single dosing, therefore cannot really see the point of comparing it to 2 grinders that require hoppers. I am a big fan of the Mythos, always have been and always will be but I cannot really see the point of comparing a 4 wheel drive with a 2 wheel drive then saying it got stuck in a field!

The Niche is what it is, and for £500, probably will be king of the hill in that sort of price bracket for a long time to come. if you want to spend more, then do.....if you want to single dose, then this could be for you.....I will always have one but doubt I will use it a great deal......does having to stir the grinds to mix them up bother me......not in the slightest, remembering that londinium designed a very expensive tool just for this, regardless of what grinder you have, and I reckon quite a few forum members own those tools, or something very similar


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MildredM said:


> If dfk's Niche is on tour then it's welcome to spend an overnighter here


Send Dave your addy M, and it can go to you if you like


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Thanks!

I'm not sure I will do it justice/can add more than has already been said . . . Let me sleep on it


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## tohenk2 (Oct 11, 2017)

MildredM said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I'm not sure I will do it justice/can add more than has already been said . . . Let me sleep on it


Oh but I do think you can do it justice.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Londinium designed a very expensive tool just for this, regardless of what grinder you have, and I reckon quite a few forum members own those tools, or something very similar


I have had my eye on one of those for a while but they are quite pricey... but they are very nice...


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

This seems to be the real Niche topic thank you.


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## Zagato (Jul 24, 2016)

MildredM said:


> . . . Let me sleep on it


Well that would certainly be a novel stress test


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

tohenk2 said:


> Oh but I do think you can do it justice.


Me too. @MildredM nobody will expect you to give an indepth scientific analysis but that doesn't mean your thoughts won't be appreciated or valid.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Thanks @coffeechap for such a well thought out review. I've only just got mine and I'm working long hours at the moment so haven't had much of a play and haven't even begun to form my own opinions but I have question to ask you if I may? Do you feel that there is a chance that the inferiority in the cup compared to the more expensive grinders could partly be down to the brand new burrs on the Niche as opposed to the well worn in sets on the others or do you feel this is solely due to partical size variation?


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> Does the perfect grinder exist? if so, I have never seen it. If you single dose, then due to the nature of the fact there is no weight behind the beans you are going to suffer from article size difference, regardless of which grinder you have (except allegedly the EK but has that got its own foibles?).Personally I am not a big fan of single dosing, therefore cannot really see the point of comparing it to 2 grinders that require hoppers. I am a big fan of the Mythos, always have been and always will be but I cannot really see the point of comparing a 4 wheel drive with a 2 wheel drive then saying it got stuck in a field!
> 
> The Niche is what it is, and for £500, probably will be king of the hill in that sort of price bracket for a long time to come. if you want to spend more, then do.....if you want to single dose, then this could be for you.....I will always have one but doubt I will use it a great deal......does having to stir the grinds to mix them up bother me......not in the slightest, remembering that londinium designed a very expensive tool just for this, regardless of what grinder you have, and I reckon quite a few forum members own those tools, or something very similar


I have to agree with this. Nothing can be all things to all men and if somebody wants to spend a lot of money on a hobby and can afford to do so then that is fine, but I do worry when I read peoples posts on forums (particularly HB) that they're spending thousands chasing something that isn't there to be caught. I've only just received my Niche but at the moment I've already decided I'm not a fan of it's looks and would prefer a portafilter holder. Are the many advantages going to out way that? At the moment I'd almost certainly say yes.

I suppose it helps that I don't see the grinders it's compared to as it's competition really. I cant justify spending the sort of money that the Mythos and Monoliths of this world sell for. The rest of the family would quite rightly see it as a selfish act that could have gone on a family holiday when money is quite tight. I see it's competition to be more along the lines of a Baratza Sette. It's around the same price new, is geared to the domestic market, makes a big selling point of being zero retention and has a lot of buzz around it on the forums, especially in the US, where the product support that most people seem to need a lot of, is strong.


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## Yannick (Oct 16, 2018)

Thanks for this review









It confirms that the Niche is the kind of grinder I was looking for. Easy to use, easy to change settings, not too big (Parisian kitchens are small) and single dosing. We will change beans and brew methods almost everyday

I will definitively not spend 2k€ on a grinder anytime soon so I will do with the cons.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I am not playing protagonist at all. I am questioning the point of road testing a Mini, an Aston Martin, An MGB and an other, then trying to decide which one is best. if you single dose and only have £500, then buy a Niche.......if you single dose and have substantially more, buy something else......if you want to make back to back shots buy a conventional hopper type grinder.....but you cannot compare apples to oranges and draw any meaningful result, in my humble.......


Pretty sure they did exactly this on a popular car show, gave them a budget and asked them to get the best car they could with the money. The mythos I have is less money than the Niche I used, both are used grinders, both could have been bought by anyone. If I had to choose between these two grinders alone , it would be the mythos! But I don't have to worry about size, single dosing, switching between lots off beans, switching between methods or having a wife that will point blank refuse to have a massive grinder in the kitchen, but if I had those considerations then the Niche would live i the cupboard and come out for coffee time!

An interesting grinder that I did not mention here was the santos of which I have a barely used one in the barista variant, it is really compact and capable of single dosing will swap between beans with little fuss and is very capable at all the different brew methods. Perhaps it is time to give it some serious time on the bench. The caveat here is that it is still twice the price of the Niche brand new and that is where Niche have nailed this!


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Would be interesting if niche was working on a flat burr 75mm with small hopper and timer, motor size may be an issue and may need a bespoke burr set - im guessing. Certainly a flat version of some sort would seem the obvious next step. Would be very interested to see it stripped down - anyone done this yet? its got to be fairly straight forward.


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## PaulL (May 5, 2014)

Interesting reading and thanks for sharing coffeechap. I sort of read almost great little grinder (albeit with marmite form and looks) but fundamental flaw in the uneven particle size of grinds.

Open question to all, where can one read about the desired shape and size of grinds, back to back blind-taste tests of 1st/2nd/3rd parts of shots from different grinders etc.? I'm not thinking Niche specifically, just the general assumption of what a grinder should produce.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I do think CoffeeChaps's observations and evaluation are very valid. Still, to me it seems we are comparing apples and pears. If the argument here is that on single dosing grinders the main issue is that there's no downforce on the burrs from beans on a hopper, and that causes uneven particle sizes and distribution, why are we comparing this against a Mythos and a Royal? Were we single dosing the Mythos and the Royal too?

For most of us, a hopped grinder at home is just too much. There are plenty of posts on this forum about people modifying grinders for single dosing. To me at least, the fact that the Niche is a single dosing grinder, with big burrs and no retention is the unique selling point. Also, it's pretty much the first motorised single dose grinder which cost around £500.

So, taste wise, are we saying that the bad points about the Niche is the fact that it's single dosing? I wonder how it would compare against other single dosing grinders such as the the Hg-1, a motorised Hg-1, a Kinu M68, a Pharos or a Monolith conical. Would taste in the cup and particle size and distribution be roughly the same?

@Stanic, has yours arrived? any thoughts?


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

I still don't agree with the negative points when compared with the Mythos. It's apples and oranges as we all know and the workflow will be different for sure! I wouldn't say it's a con, more of a difference.

One things I didn't like with Ceado E37s is that I run it with 150-200g of beans at most as I take a bit off for AeroPress at work. You dial in, purge so much (daily and between changing grind setting), then adjust the timer... by then you have few days to enjoy before the hopper is too empty and the pour quality goes down. This is what you would expect from an on demand and I can't fault it. It didn't work for me since the consumption is quite low in the household and I rarely have more than 250g of coffee in total (with an exception of 500g LSOLs and 350g bags).

Is Niche good for high volume use? Not at all, but it's not what it is meant to do.


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

> This is the contentious part for me as this grinder has a wide spread of particle size and as a result you HAVE to shake and stir the grinds in order to get a decent pour. I separated a few shots in a row, taking the first 5 g, middle and last of a 15g dose. There is a noticeable difference in the grind size between each of the divided 5g batches, This is because of the way the grinder grinds and is intended to be used. Its a single dose grinder and as such without weight of bean on the burrs, the particle size increases from the start to the finish of each dose.


Well this is a feature of most if not every single dose grinder. The same behavior I observered when single dosing with K10, K6, and I am sure we will see the same if we single dose Mythos. I have not used Monolith, but even there WDT tool is added and probably you will find the same characteristic of grind. Stirring/shaking is part of the routine for single dosing grinder.

Maybe grinders like Titus, Versalab (hybrid burrs) behave differently, but again I had not been lucky enough to test them. And you mentioned EK43, again this is the grinder that might not need stirring, however in most coffee shop they still use cups and some shaking.

But even with on demand grinders if you try the same test (splitting grind into 3 parts) probably you will see simmillar behavior, because the burrs has to start, stop, there is a bit of stałe coffee, bit of coffee grinds between the burrs etc. In my opinion even Mythos with light roasted coffee benefits from stirring coffee in portafilter with LDT.

So all is up to individual preferences. Do you prefer single dosing? If yes you have to live with the extended routine.

Do you want on demand? Fine. Can you achieve the same grind quality as Niche for 500 GBP. Probably yes. But some of us paid 350 GBP, and this is very hard to beat.

Which one I prefer, Mythos or Niche? Mythos







K10 or Niche? Niche! On demand vs single dose? I want both, love the flexibility.

Ps. And if you want you can mimic full hopper on Niche. Hopper is bigger then single dose, just make it full before every grind. Again different workflow, more difficult, but now you have Mazzer Kony grind quality.

This is how I was finally using K10. OE mini hopper with 50 grams of coffee all the time. This gave me best results.

[/QUOTE]


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PaulL said:


> Interesting reading and thanks for sharing coffeechap. I sort of read almost great little grinder (albeit with marmite form and looks) but fundamental flaw in the uneven particle size of grinds.
> 
> Open question to all, where can one read about the desired shape and size of grinds, back to back blind-taste tests of 1st/2nd/3rd parts of shots from different grinders etc.? I'm not thinking Niche specifically, just the general assumption of what a grinder should produce.


Nowhere, this data doesn't exist. Even if some of it does exist, it's not in the public domain.

There is a wide range of sizes that grinders can produce and still fall within the 'normal' range. I doubt the Niche will grind as fine as the EK-43, Mythos, or any other auger equipped flat burr grinder/hoppered grinder with a full hopper, but then it is neither of these things.

I doubt that its grind is significantly different to other gravity fed, single dose grinders and the grind size is different & not what Coffeechap has a preference for, but not exactly a fundamental flaw in the big scheme of things.


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I do think CoffeeChaps's observations and evaluation are very valid. Still, to me it seems we are comparing apples and pears. If the argument here is that on single dosing grinders the main issue is that there's no downforce on the burrs from beans on a hopper, and that causes uneven particle sizes and distribution, why are we comparing this against a Mythos and a Royal? Were we single dosing the Mythos and the Royal too?





PPapa said:


> I still don't agree with the negative points when compared with the Mythos. It's apples and oranges as we all know and the workflow will be different for sure! I wouldn't say it's a con, more of a difference.


I don't agree with the point that we are comparing apples and oranges and pears. To establish a fair comparison we need to use the grinders as they were designed.

The Niche as single dosing.

The Mythos with a full hopper.

Then compare the grind quality. We will find that while a Mythos produces a narrow distribution, the Niche produces a wide distribution and, perhaps, due to popcorning, with moderate or high variability between shots.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Viernes said:


> I don't agree with the point that we are comparing apples and oranges and pears. To establish a fair comparison we need to use the grinders as they were designed.
> 
> The Niche as single dosing.
> 
> ...


I suppose we have to agree to disagree. To me it seems, comparing a single dosing grinder with a full on hopper fed commercial grinder is like comparing a two seater sports car with a truck. Yes, both can take you from A to B, however I can't fit the truck on my drive neither can I take it for a spin on different roads on the same day.

What I'm trying to get is to be able to compare two grinders which are both designed for single dosing.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Yannick said:


> Thanks for this review
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So glad to hear this as the ONLY thing that is important here is what YOU want and what you have as a budget to consider.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Viernes said:


> Then compare the grind quality. We will find that while a Mythos produces a narrow distribution, the Niche produces a wide distribution and, perhaps, due to popcorning, with moderate or high variability between shots.


How are you going to compare grind "quality", as opposed to coarseness/fineness?

Even though the Niche (& all other gravity fed single dose grinders) popcorns why would this lead to variability between shots? If they do it, they'll do it every time, consistently surely? A Feldgrind, or a Lido E has normal variation between shots & they popcorn too.


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

Viernes said:


> I don't agree with the point that we are comparing apples and oranges and pears. To establish a fair comparison we need to use the grinders as they were designed.
> 
> The Niche as single dosing.
> 
> ...


But is it a fair comparison, if you just compare ONE aspect, while ignoring the others?

I mean, we are talking about the use at home, or not?

Are you really using the big commercial grinders with full hoppers at home?

Don't you change beans? Don't you change between Espresso and Filter settings?

If you take all aspects in consideration - the big commercial grinders are basically "one trick ponies".

They are great (maybe the best) in the thing they do, but only if you use them in the way they are designed for (commercial use, high throughput over the day, so a full hopper doesn't matter). If you use them out of their designed use case, they also have their flaws.


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I suppose we have to agree to disagree. To me it seems, comparing a single dosing grinder with a full on hopper fed commercial grinder is like comparing a two seater sports car with a truck. Yes, both can take you from A to B, however I can't fit the truck on my drive neither can I take it for a spin on different roads on the same day.
> 
> What I'm trying to get is to be able to compare two grinders which are both designed for single dosing.


Yup. But also he's compare it with the EK43 single dosing.









IMHO the Niche should have used a tube over the path with a weight to top up the beans like a lot of people have modded their grinders. I'm starting to have some random thoughts about how to do it (which isnt a positive thing), problem is the niche angle.

The Niche zero retention capability it's TERRIFIC. I've never seen something like this at this price point. Pity about the bean feed!


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @Stanic, has yours arrived? any thoughts?


Hey, I haven't ordered one..yet









Currently I'm focusing more on getting funds together for the Lelit Bianca, but that'll take some time unless I'll start with yet another job lol

And I'm really eyeing that Helor Stance motor tbh


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

But, the niche is what it is.......it is not a commercial based grinder. it is aimed at bringing a decent level of grind to the home user with industry established burrs with zero retention. I think after that, we can either accept or not the idiosyncrasies. There are bound to be aspects that even the greatest admirer would change, unless they had the benefit of a 1:2:1 with the design team. this argument over grinding into the pf......if you can be arsed with weighing in and the rest of shot prep required to single dose, then why is this such a big issue?

I am a big admirer of this grinder, both from what it does, what it has brought to the market at the price point, and the fact it is 100% BRITISH...show me a product anywhere in the world, that has 100% satisfaction from its user base......it does not exist! Why would a little home user grinder have anything more complicated than an on off switch? It is not designed to do 10, back to back shots so I am pleased you did use your mythos Dave.

Did you do a road test to see how the Mythos and the rest perform as single doers. Did you try to time swopping out the beans on the others. Did you compare the ease of assembly to clean with the others. I could go on (and on and on) but will not. I enjoyed your tongue in cheek review. Did it tell us anything we did not really already know.....I am happy to send mine back down for further consideration, if you want to run series of tests on the 4 grinders but zests designed by our members......over to you


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

Viernes said:


> Yup. But also he's compare it with the EK43 single dosing.


But to be fair, the EK43 in general is kind of a exceptional phenomenon in the world of grinders, where MANY (most?) other manufacturers are aiming for.

And, to be fair, this grinder is out of range for many coffee enthusiasts (price and size).

The Niche was never advertised to be a poor man's ek43.

It was advertised to be equal to grinders that are double or tripple the price.


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## PCJAnt (Mar 26, 2018)

Stanic said:


> ...
> 
> Currently I'm focusing more on getting funds together for the Lelit Bianca
> 
> ...


Ahoj Stanic, might be for your interest, if not wrong you are located in South Poland and someone based in Trencin is selling since 7th November in bazos.sk a used one almost new (only 291 shots).

I guess is the same person that posted this videos in youtube.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Very well that looks tempting for sure







and I come from a town not so far from Trenčín

Bazos is great, I've got the Portaspresso HC-P from there in spring


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

PCJAnt said:


> Ahoj Stanic, might be for your interest, if not wrong you are located in South Poland and someone based in Trencin is selling since 7th November in bazos.sk a used one almost new (only 291 shots).
> 
> I guess is the same person that posted this videos in youtube.


You could have pmed him this , is just isnt relevant to this thread.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Omg terrible


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## ClaretPeter (Mar 12, 2018)

I love mine. Love the look, the size, the efficiency with which it works, no retention or static and Ib can't say I've had any issue with coffee taste.

For the price it's magnificent, especially as an early crowdfunded which made it even better value.


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## PCJAnt (Mar 26, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> You could have pmed him this , is just isnt relevant to this thread.


I do not have yet enough posted messages to send PM, and for Stanic is definitively relevant.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

My thought process was swayed by my existing equipment so Ive tried to look at it from another angle. If I was starting out again, what would I do ?

Would I buy a Sage DB in preference to an L1? No. The Sage has proved to be a very capable machine but it just doesnt do it for me in the looks department. Heart would rule head on this so no need to justify to myself

Would I buy a Niche in preference to a Mythos ? Possibly

Id have to weigh up the pros and cons of both

Looks - neither will win a beauty contest but the mythos wins for me.

Size - I have the space for either but Niche wins

Price - Niche wins (comparing new / nearly new)

Taste - cant comment but both make decent coffee. Given my preference for lighter roasts I would go flat but this is without comparing the two

Ease of use - seems to be a lot of messing about teaming & ladling / shaking with the Niche so Mythos wins here

Looking at the scoring, the Mythos should win but price would make me seriously consider buying the Niche


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> But, the niche is what it is.......it is not a commercial based grinder. it is aimed at bringing a decent level of grind to the home user with industry established burrs with zero retention. I think after that, we can either accept or not the idiosyncrasies. There are bound to be aspects that even the greatest admirer would change, unless they had the benefit of a 1:2:1 with the design team. this argument over grinding into the pf......if you can be arsed with weighing in and the rest of shot prep required to single dose, then why is this such a big issue?
> 
> I am a big admirer of this grinder, both from what it does, what it has brought to the market at the price point, and the fact it is 100% BRITISH...show me a product anywhere in the world, that has 100% satisfaction from its user base......it does not exist! Why would a little home user grinder have anything more complicated than an on off switch? It is not designed to do 10, back to back shots so I am pleased you did use your mythos Dave.
> 
> Did you do a road test to see how the Mythos and the rest perform as single doers. Did you try to time swopping out the beans on the others. Did you compare the ease of assembly to clean with the others. I could go on (and on and on) but will not. I enjoyed your tongue in cheek review. Did it tell us anything we did not really already know.....I am happy to send mine back down for further consideration, if you want to run series of tests on the 4 grinders but zests designed by our members......over to you


Why has this become an attack on my methodology? My PERSONAL essential criteria for coffee is taste in the cup and how a grinder delivers this with espresso (my preferred coffee based drink) so all of the other features ( which I mentioned as positives for the Niche) are not as critical to me.

Have I said anywhere in my observations that the Niche is shite? On the contrary I have said it is a great little grinder. However the grind consistency is an issue for ME and this is an issue across a wide range of gravity fed grinders, I noticed it on the hg1 and the ceado when single dosing.

Did I need to test the other grinders for single dosing, no that's not what they are for, however I did test it against the best single doser the Ek43, the versalab and Titus do not have the same issues neither did my Kafatek flat. I will however try and put some time into side by sides with the little santos, perhaps that would be a fairer comparison as I can test it against all of the criteria. Not big on brewer but will give it a go.

Here is my thing in all of this folks. Is there another grinder available in the Niche price range th does what it does. Absolutely not! So does this mean it represents excellent value for money for those that have that money to spend or even those considering stretching to its cost? ABSOLUTELY! Is it a great brutish product? Yes. Will it ever sit on my bench? NO☹


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## PaulL (May 5, 2014)

Does anyone have photos of the size of the Niche against the grinders mentioned here? I really like the 'Kenwood' look of the Niche and the way it blends into the kitchen domestically. Here it is against the E37s for example which itself isn't the largest of industrial beasts. For every person who doesn't like the look of the Niche I suspect there is one who doesn't want the kitchen to look like a cafe or garden workshop.

  

And here's my current look in the kitchen

  

and the look it replaced


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> however I did test it against the best single doser the Ek43, the versalab and Titus do not have the same issues neither did my Kafatek flat.


What happens inside the kafatek to not popcorning?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> I will however try and put some time into side by sides with the little santos, perhaps that would be a fairer comparison as I can test it against all of the criteria. Not big on brewer but will give it a go.


Interesting as that would be, doesn't the Santos also have an auger, so not gravity fed & not popcorn prone?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

PCJAnt said:


> I do not have yet enough posted messages to send PM, and for Stanic is definitively relevant.


Not relevant to this thread though


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Interesting as that would be, doesn't the Santos also have an auger, so not gravity fed & not popcorn prone?


You miss construed my point. It would compare the capability characteristics of the two grinders (price asside)


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

MWJB said:


> How are you going to compare grind "quality", as opposed to coarseness/fineness?
> 
> Even though the Niche (& all other gravity fed single dose grinders) popcorns why would this lead to variability between shots? If they do it, they'll do it every time, consistently surely? A Feldgrind, or a Lido E has normal variation between shots & they popcorn too.


Quality isn't the proper word. Suitable (grind for X method) perhaps? Optimal (grind for X method)?

About Consistency thats what I said "perhaps", I have no data but knowing that the last part of beans are not under weight and that, aparently, change its grind size, I have my doubts about the particle size consistency shot to shot.



hifimacianer said:


> But is it a fair comparison, if you just compare ONE aspect, while ignoring the others?
> 
> I mean, we are talking about the use at home, or not?
> 
> ...


Yes. I must use hoppers grinders with beans in it. No need to be full, but it must contain certain amount. They were designed that way, and usually in the user guide there's a warning talking about mininal amount of coffee in the hopper to optimal performance.

And that's one of the reasons because I have none at home right now.









Also I have an EK43s that works for single dosing flawless.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> You miss construed my point. It would compare the capability characteristics of the two grinders (price asside)


I don't think I misconstrued anything, I'm not trying to wrongfoot, or misquote you. Your reservations/observations about the Niche's grind output ("questionable" you said) stem from the popcorning. So I don't really see how comparing to yet another grinder with an auger is "fairer". That's all.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Viernes said:


> Quality isn't the proper word. Suitable (grind for X method) perhaps? Optimal (grind for X method)?
> 
> About Consistency thats what I said "perhaps", I have no data but knowing that the last part of beans are not under weight and that, aparently, change its grind size, I have my doubts about the particle size consistency shot to shot.


Sorry, I don't see how the particle size consistency changes from shot to shot, more/less than any other grinder. Sure, if you grind 3 doses at once you might get a finer grind overall than grinding 3 doses consecutively. But the 3 consecutive doses should be consistent with each other, as should the 3 triple ground doses be consistent with each other.

Yes, there is a change depending on how much you grind each time, but you're doing that.


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

Just to say thanks to @coffeechap for taking the time to share his thoughts. The review seemed very fair to me & I love my Niche.


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## tohenk2 (Oct 11, 2017)

jimbojohn55 said:


> Would be interesting if niche was working on a flat burr 75mm with small hopper and timer, motor size may be an issue and may need a bespoke burr set - im guessing. Certainly a flat version of some sort would seem the obvious next step.


Sounds like you are describing the Eureka Atom Specialty E75 with TiN burrs&#8230;


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## MalcolmH (Dec 10, 2016)

My only grinder prior to the Niche was the Compaq K3. The Niche wins in all respects. I suspect the vast majority of buyers come from a similar position to myself and are upgrading which is why the other thread is all good.

I was hoping that the Niche grinder would convert me to the delights of lighter coffees. That hasn't happened. The taste is better than with the K3 but inconsistent. I need to learn how to get consistent shots in this area.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I don't have a niche , i have had some really good/great shots of "light roasted" coffee from Roburs etc. Really good espresso's. No I didn't compare them back to back with an EK/Mythos etc. Would a big flat make a "better" espresso, possibly, but it's all a trade off in the kitchen at home. . My point is that, with some dialling in I, i can't see why you wouldnt be able to get a really tasty "lighter roasted" coffee espresso from a Niche.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MalcolmH said:


> My only grinder prior to the Niche was the Compaq K3. The Niche wins in all respects. I suspect the vast majority of buyers come from a similar position to myself and are upgrading which is why the other thread is all good.
> 
> I was hoping that the Niche grinder would convert me to the delights of lighter coffees. That hasn't happened. The taste is better than with the K3 but inconsistent. I need to learn how to get consistent shots in this area.


One of the maddening things, joys, frustrating things about home espresso is chasing that conistent shot each time. It aint easy


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)




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## Paul K (May 11, 2018)

Popcorn


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)




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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Wtf?


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I do think CoffeeChaps's observations and evaluation are very valid. Still, to me it seems we are comparing apples and pears. If the argument here is that on single dosing grinders the main issue is that there's no downforce on the burrs from beans on a hopper, and that causes uneven particle sizes and distribution, why are we comparing this against a Mythos and a Royal? Were we single dosing the Mythos and the Royal too?
> 
> For most of us, a hopped grinder at home is just too much. There are plenty of posts on this forum about people modifying grinders for single dosing. To me at least, the fact that the Niche is a single dosing grinder, with big burrs and no retention is the unique selling point. Also, it's pretty much the first motorised single dose grinder which cost around £500.
> 
> ...


Since I have a Pharos as well as the Niche, I feel qualified to comment. For what it's worth, I think the results are very, very similar to the Pharos. However, the Niche is a whole lot less hard work and faff. I happen to think the Pharos is better looking but then I like steampunk.









To all intents and purposes, the Niche is a powered Pharos for the domestic market.

Because of the necessity to remove the container on the Pharos the grounds tend to get shaken anyway and I always transfer them to another container for weighing and loading the portafilter. (I do this with the Niche too.) I also give them a stir with a kebab stick so I guess I'm compensating for the uneven particle size.

One or the other will go eventually. Not sure which yet and I still want a Mythos...


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Sudden passing thought. I wonder if it would be possible to replace the burr retaining bolt with one which incorporates an auger? Like the ones on Eureka 65e etc.. One for the machinists perhaps?

And, would such a mod reduce the popcorning and improve the particle distribution?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Possibly a way of diffusing healthy debate?


I thought i essentially in theory was agreeing with you..

There are cheaper small flat burr grinders out there ( Mignon, Vario, Sage etc ) that I'd think those bigger conical ( Kony ) burrs would outweigh the smaller flat ones even for lighter roasts ?


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## hangerhead (Oct 13, 2018)

i've changed from a compak 6 grinder with hopper, to this niche and I wouldn't look back at all. I think grind consistency is better, dialling in easier, it's quieter and takes up a lot less space.

the dosing cup arrangement also means there is zero mess and waste and I get better and more consistent pour now than with the compak.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> I thought i essentially in theory was agreeing with you..
> 
> There are cheaper small flat burr grinders out there ( Mignon, Vario, Sage etc ) that I'd think those bigger conical ( Kony ) burrs would outweigh the smaller flat ones even for lighter roasts ?


It's a better grinder than the smaller flat burred grinders that are anywhere near its price range


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## mokapoka (Jun 20, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> It's a better grinder than the smaller flat burred grinders that are anywhere near its price range


Is it better in the cup than a Mazzer Major?


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> I thought i essentially in theory was agreeing with you..
> 
> There are cheaper small flat burr grinders out there ( Mignon, Vario, Sage etc ) that I'd think those bigger conical ( Kony ) burrs would outweigh the smaller flat ones even for lighter roasts ?


I'm probably splitting hairs here, but I thought the sage was a conical?

On the subject of the sage SGP, I had it for 6 months, then changed to the niche, and I would say, in my opinion anyway, that the Niche is absolutely worth the extra £300-350 more!! It's worlds apart in every single way, but I never really liked the sage anyway..


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## Grahamg (Oct 24, 2013)

I think I found the need to stir a little disappointment at first but I'm totally over that now, especially as the burrs are bedding inand the taste getting even better. The taste descriptor vs. Large flat in that summary is bang on, but I think I've said before that's the whole reason I prefer conics- the lack of proper "punch you in the face" flavours with lighter roasts.

The 100% British comment is rather naive though (I thought we'd strayed into Mail online comments for split second): the cups aren't, the burrs aren't and no doubt there are other odds and sods that either weren't available or just aren't cost effective to manufacture here. Fully understand this may be a future aspiration, but I suspect it will remain just that unless they start flying off the shelves of John Lewis.


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## ZappyAd (Jul 19, 2017)

Thanks @coffeechap for taking the time and effort to put this together. It is an interesting read. I am now seriously pondering where I sit on the mythos vs niche question when a few days ago I didn't even know it was a thing!


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

I'm finding it to give consistent results if workflow is consistent. It's also producing good espresso and I only buy lightly roasted beans. I just shake the tumbler which I'm used to doing with the EK so I don't consider that any hassle at all. As I said on the other thread, I am preferring the results on my home setup of the EK with the Vesuvius but that's not a fair comparison. When I briefly had them both at home what impressed me was how quickly I was able to dial it in. I think I struggle a bit more with the EK but it is capable of producing outstanding results. I should really bring it home and compare them back to back but I'm not sure when that will happen as I don't drink many a day so would need it to be for a while and it's needed at work. It would be interesting to know how it compares to a Monolith conical as that's the closest thing to it I guess, ignoring price.


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## PaulL (May 5, 2014)

And will you post a pic of the two grinders together Dan? So far nobody else can be ar5ed.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

This is a funny debate, as it doesn't really seem like anyone is really disagreeing with each other.

Comparisons were made to 'Titan Class' grinders because people are rightfully interested in such comparisons. But no one should be hugely surprised that this little grinder doesn't outclass it's competition in every weight class. It's like expecting Conor McGreggor to ever have had a chance against Floyd Mayweather.

I think we can all agree that at its price point it seems to be top of its class in grind quality. This is all you can ever hope for when spending money on a product. Some folk can afford to spend 2-4x the price and they should rightfully expect better quality.

But for many ease of use trumps eeking the last 10% of flavour out of their shots. Being small, quiet, single dosing and having very low retention are hugely valuable to most home espresso makers. If these things are high up on your priority list then it's the Niche your going to choose unless you want to seriously up your budget or heavily modify an ex commercial to only be mostly as good.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Who's Colin! Connor.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Jony said:


> Who's Colin! Connor.


Whoops! Edited.


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## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

Dylan said:


> This is a funny debate, as it doesn't really seem like anyone is really disagreeing with each other.
> 
> Comparisons were made to 'Titan Class' grinders because people are rightfully interested in such comparisons. But no one should be hugely surprised that this little grinder doesn't outclass it's competition in every weight class. It's like expecting Conor McGreggor to ever had a chance against Floyd Mayweather.
> 
> ...


Completely agree with this. I think because it's been marketed as an affordable grinder that'll beat grinders more than double its price we're starting to get a little carried away with comparisons.

If I had the money for an ek, I'd buy an ek for sure, but I snagged this grinder at the £350 price point, which for what it is I still think was an outrageous bargain (sounds like no one is disagreeing on this!). But that means we're not just talking about a quarter of the price of an ek/mythos, more like a sixth, so if the Niche even came close to the performance of the others I'd be amazed!

Dont get me wrong, I'm still really interested to hear the comparisons just to see how it stacks up against competition so thanks for the thoughts coffeechap!

In the £500 range we're still looking at a very small amount of grinders to compare to... It's a bit of a gap. Had a look around and can only really find the vario, k3 or mignon specialita around the £360-400 mark, otherwise next step up is upwards of £600. Still think the Niche is the best of the lot here personally.

Myself, I went from a mignon mk1 for espresso and feldgrind for brewed, to having the Niche for both at home and leaving the feldgrind at work, so it's been a perfect upgrade. Not to mention the Mrs likes the look of it!


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Question for the Dave's @coffeechap and @DavecUK

Does particle size distribution hugely affect flavour in the cup? To a degree you can tell all other factors being equal?

On the convenience factors. I don't consider the need to give the PF cup a shake a huge inconvenience tbh. The distribution can't be that bad given my shots since using the niche have been far far more consistent compared with the super jolly it replaced.

Shake the cup, into the PF, pull, done.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Distribution should be fairly good BECAUSE you are doing the routine!

Logically the greater the band width of particle size the greater of variance of extraction as different particle size extract at different rates!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ATZ said:


> Question for the Dave's @coffeechap and @DavecUK
> 
> Does particle size distribution hugely affect flavour in the cup? To a degree you can tell all other factors being equal?


I initially did a much larger comprehensive reply, but have not bothered to post it. I'll short circuit my post by simply saying after 15 years of experimentation and a lot of it in this area, I can confidently say I don't know. One thing I do know is that you cannot consider it in isolation....there are other factors at play. There is no evidence I know of to say a particular particle distribution for all coffees and all machine and all temperatures and all roast levels is optimal that isn't more than conjecture or bad experimental procedure. Forgive me if there is, but I've never seen it and I have been involved a few times with manufacturers on this very issue.

*Do I think there is a range that stuff should stay within....yes, but whether tighter is better...I don't know*. Fluid dynamics through substrates are very complex as is packing theory, temperature and pressure do funny things and coffee is an organic substance that absorbs water, all without any constants. I know that some grinders are good and others are not....the reason why might be particle distribution, particle shape, dose inconsistency, exchange, use of a hopper, bean pressure, burr design, burr speed, it might even be perception. Even then I couldn't say a grinder will be good for all coffees, in all situations for all machines....perhaps that's my limitation and someone cleverer than me has a handle on all this.

When I review and test a coffee machine I am very careful because I am aware that it's a particular set of circumstances being tested and that I am not comparing it side by side with a machine, but testing it for what it is. It's why I often try not to draw comparisons for machines. If I did I'd forever be saying well it's good but it's no Vesuvius, or Slayer or whatever. With the Niche, I was fortunate enough to have some help from @MWJB and able to test it on 4 different types of machines. Straight Vibe dual Boiler, Verona, Lelit Bianca and Vesuvius, but not a lever machine. I also had the time to test with many different coffees, roast levels and, extraction temperatures and tight control of repeatable profiles. I could only test it side by side with my E92, but that's a £2500 grinder and a little informal testing against an E37S. I even Kruve sieved all the grinds out into little pots on trays (vs my E92), but that was not hugely helpful for anything

If your circumstances are different your results might be different, is this purely down to particle size distribution...I don't know, but I doubt it. All I see here is @coffeechap has posted his opinion on the grinder after a few weeks to say (sorry if I don't get this 100% right):


He and his wife didn't like the look of it, It's not right for them and they prefer the espresso through an EK, Mythos or Monolith or whatever on (presumably) a lever machine (*edit: correction and a La Marzocco GS3*), didn't like the workflow and preferred a tighter particle distribution of his EK43

Plus quite a few positives about price, size, and performance vs other grinders in it's range, and good burrs.


*Either the grinder is right for you or it isn't...regardless of the particle size distribution and I think this is all @**coffeechap** was saying. I believe a few people have been taken as an attack on the Niche and feel the need to defend it....I think that's not a good place to be. *

In the absence of a lot of good information, evidence and testing in the area of particle distribution (and I am happy to be corrected here), I think the things that are really important to consider are not the technical minutiae but:


Does it produce a good extraction on your system

Does it work with most/all coffees and drink types you like

Do you enjoy using it

Do it's advantages outweigh any perceived shortcomings


If it does enough of the key things, great, if it doesn't then it's not the grinder for you and perhaps you need a Mythos, EK43, Monolith, EG1 or whatever. Mid range £800 commercial flat/conical burr that takes your fancy..


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> Does it produce a good extraction on your system
> 
> Does it work with most/all coffees and drink types you like
> 
> ...


When I get mine* I will try and answer these









*mine being dfk's courtesy of coffeechap


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> It's a better grinder than the smaller flat burred grinders that are anywhere near its price range


One would hope so. People can get sucked into " you must have a flat if you like lighter roasts" but you gotta have a really good one , not just " a flat"


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

If someone has a digital microscope, it will be really helpful for us to see pictures of particles of ground coffee from Niche and EK, or any other of course. That will be the real proof.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

L&R said:


> If someone has a digital microscope, it will be really helpful for us to see pictures of particles of ground coffee from Niche and EK, or any other of course. That will be the real proof.


Real proof of what?


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Consistency in grinding output of course ...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

L&R said:


> Consistency in grinding output of course ...


Do you mean a wide vs narrow grind distribution?


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Let's say it - overall particles difference within 3 attempts or so, do you have a microscope in hand?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

L&R said:


> Let's say it - overall particles difference within 3 attempts or so, do you have a microscope in hand?


Sorry still don't understand what you are trying to do.... No I don't have a Microscope in hand. If it's grind particle distribution, I'm quite happy to go with what @coffeechap has observed...but If there are other things to be proved and you have a Digital Microscope or whatever in hand, I would say go for it. Especially if "3 attempts" shows something people have overlooked. Perhaps Mildred/Her hubby has something they can use?


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

I believe in facts, pictures are facts. What people feel is just chatting.

BR


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Either buy one or don't.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have a strong sense of COFFEE BOLLOCKS coming in.......for goodness sake......splitting the atom is bound to make a scientific difference, but how many people can taste the difference.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Jony said:


> Either buy one or don't.


 I will out of curiosity though.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

L&R said:


> I will out of curiosity though.


Considering you can see difference in grind size with the naked eye, I fail to see the need for a microscope. A set of sieves to see the spread of grind sizes on the otherhand.....


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

One of the reasons I think back to back comparisons with more expensive grinders are good is that most of us suffer from a degree of upgraditis and tend to think more expensive is likely to be better. If the outcome of comparisons with more expensive alternatives is favourable even if it's not quite as good then I would think many would consider that useful. The trouble is defining the differences as it's all subjective and we're always wondering what "almost as good", "slightly better", "not quite" etc etc mean.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

A while ago I used two identical 68mm conical grinders side by side over a period of weeks with the same beans in each, but using various beans over the period. One was hopper fed and the other single dosed. Both were kept dialled in and I alternated between them. The intention was to organise some blind tasting, but I soon realised there was no point as it was pretty obvious that I was not possible to detect any taste difference between the two. The single dosed one required more basket prep, and even then the pours never looked as good, but the result in the cup was no different. I don't think there's any doubt that there is considerable grind variation when single dosing, I've done the test where you divide the dose into thirds. So yes, there is more effort required but I'm convinced there's no difference in the cup. If the conclusion is that the Niche produces results every bit as good as any other large conical when single dosed then it's doing pretty well.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

^agree lived experience is where its at, in the end I respect the opinion of people who are subjective and have a greater knowledge and lived experience than mine, Im very cautious of the latest and greatest equipment often hyped and marketed by manufacturers -like curved screen TV, but the lived experience of users killed them off. Trusted users is what makes this forum great, I value the opinions of people who have reviewed these machines and will form an opinion over the coming months. Till then its good to read the opinions of people who have experience of a wide range of grinders and A particle analysis would be interesting but I suspect the info is out there already for those burrs at that speed, Im sure niche also had it done as part of their product research and development when choosing burrs.

It seems to do the business and work in the cup for a lot of people that's great for the people who invested, I cant say I wouldn't be impressed because ive never tried one and probably wont till a cheap or broken one comes on the market, but that will be a few years


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The Niche was pretty consistent dose to dose and the particle variance was pretty consistent on each 3rd. I did the test 5 times and the results were very similar. All this said after doing the shake and stir method, the different particle ranges were mixed up sufficiently to allow a good pour each and every time. Provided you are thorough in your prep the NICHE will produce good shots of coffee and most of the new owners will be happy with the results.


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## Dormouse (Aug 6, 2017)

I roast with an Ikawa

I switch beans every time I make a coffee

I only use Aeropress or French Press, no intention to change methods, but don't want a grinder to limit future options.

Generally, I prefer darker roasts.

I don't like hand grinding

A Niche is at the bigger end of what would be acceptable in the kitchen

afaics this thread seems to confirm that the Niche should be just about perfect for me.

I'm certainly very happy with mine, even though I'm having to re-evaluate some beans and roasts.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

pj.walczak said:


> Well this is a feature of most if not every single dose grinder. The same behavior I observered when single dosing with K10, K6, and I am sure we will see the same if we single dose Mythos. I have not used Monolith, but even there WDT tool is added and probably you will find the same characteristic of grind. Stirring/shaking is part of the routine for single dosing grinder.
> 
> Maybe grinders like Titus, Versalab (hybrid burrs) behave differently, but again I had not been lucky enough to test them. And you mentioned EK43, again this is the grinder that might not need stirring, however in most coffee shop they still use cups and some shaking.
> 
> ...


It's not a grinder feature, it's a burr feature, smaller burrs suffer badly when single dosed, grinder manufacturers knows this, which is why they add huge hoppers and tell people to not run them below a certain level. An EK is an entire different beast which is why it behaves differently and isn't so sensitive to single dosing (I've seen people reporting that there's still a difference when slowly feeding beans vs. whole dose drop in one go), for starters it's got a vertically fitted set of huge burrs + auger feed and it runs super fast, so even if you dump a dose it will most likely get gradually fed into the burrs instead of dropping straight down onto the burrset like on a conic. Imho conics are the worst out of all burrsets when it comes to single dosing as they are gravity fed. Flats are in second place as they use a mixture of gravity / centrifugal force, then followed by large flats and vertical large flats.

Single dosing can be fixed by using stacked burrsets (hybrid flat+conic or just conic above conic) or slow feeding, which aren't exactly easy / cheap / practical.

T.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dsc said:


> Single dosing can be fixed by using stacked burrsets (hybrid flat+conic or just conic above conic) or slow feeding, which aren't exactly easy / cheap / practical.
> 
> T.


Does this improve distribution, or does it just reduce strain on the motor?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

PaulL said:


> And will you post a pic of the two grinders together Dan? So far nobody else can be ar5ed.


Maybe they've got better things to be doing


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Great well balanced review Dave.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Great well balanced review Dave.


Cheers clive


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Does this improve distribution, or does it just reduce strain on the motor?


No idea if it improves anything, but it definitely changes things. Super slow bean-by-bean feeding allows for finer grinding as on your normal dialed-in single dosing setting you'll get gushers. It also makes it possible to get 22-23% EY espresso from a conical, which is a huge improvement considering most conics have a hard time going above 19-20%.

It is possible that EKs have to grind so fine because of the way the beans are fed (ie. non gravity feed), very curious what would happen if those massive flat burrs where mounted horizontally and fed from the top.

T.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dsc said:


> No idea if it improves anything, but it definitely changes things. Super slow bean-by-bean feeding allows for finer grinding as on your normal dialed-in single dosing setting you'll get gushers. It also makes it possible to get 22-23% EY espresso from a conical, which is a huge improvement considering most conics have a hard time going above 19-20%.
> 
> It is possible that EKs have to grind so fine because of the way the beans are fed (ie. non gravity feed), very curious what would happen if those massive flat burrs where mounted horizontally and fed from the top.
> 
> T.


Or fill the hopper ......


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dsc said:


> very curious what would happen if those massive flat burrs where mounted horizontally and fed from the top.
> 
> T.


You would have an r120


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Or fill the hopper ......


You wouldn't be able to even get close to the fineness of the grind vs bean-by-bean dosing. I'm not saying it's worse as I think hopper fed burrs operate as they should, just interesting that with a hopper you get lower EY.

T.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> You would have an r120


How sensitive is it to slow dosing?

T.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dsc said:


> How sensitive is it to slow dosing?
> 
> T.


Never tried it


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

PaulL said:


> And will you post a pic of the two grinders together Dan? So far nobody else can be ar5ed.


Here you go, the EK is on a knock tray/box though


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

The little Niche looks like it doesn't belong to there at all.










What a massive gear you have there. Great!


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## pGolay (Nov 17, 2018)

"problem is the niche angle."

A loosely packed sand or shot bag is what comes to mind. I'll probably try something like that when I get mine in February.

-Pascal


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

PaulL said:


> And will you post a pic of the two grinders together Dan? So far nobody else can be ar5ed.


Here's one with the shorty:


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

GlennV said:


> A while ago I used two identical 68mm conical grinders side by side over a period of weeks with the same beans in each, but using various beans over the period. One was hopper fed and the other single dosed. Both were kept dialled in and I alternated between them. The intention was to organise some blind tasting, but I soon realised there was no point as it was pretty obvious that I was not possible to detect any taste difference between the two. The single dosed one required more basket prep, and even then the pours never looked as good, but the result in the cup was no different. I don't think there's any doubt that there is considerable grind variation when single dosing, I've done the test where you divide the dose into thirds. So yes, there is more effort required but I'm convinced there's no difference in the cup. If the conclusion is that the Niche produces results every bit as good as any other large conical when single dosed then it's doing pretty well.


I've done compares too but with whatever static protection the grinder has fitted on it removed when using it for weighing in. This is with mazzer style grids over the grind chamber outlet. It needs to be removed when weighing in because it will retain grinds that can't be got out if it's left in place. When the grid is in place and the hopper on the setting needs changing to obtain the same dose and there is more clumping especially with the sort of beans I use. On the grinder I have weighed in on most there is no clumping at all. Hard to do a compare on a Ceado as the flap they use deflects the grinds in the direction they are intended to go.

Interesting comments about weight of beans over conical burs. Maybe I'll have time after Xmas to see what the variation is over 15g is.

John

-


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

PPapa said:


> Here's one with the shorty:


Gotta love how they've gone 'Hmm looks too short. Better put a really tall hopper on it!'


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## Rnash (Jul 20, 2018)

Hello everyone, fairly new here. Would like to buy a grinder. I did drink mainly espresso - couple in the morning, maybe one in the afternoon and one in the evening - but recently IÂ'm drinking more pour overs. I like the fruitier more flowery African coffees. I was thinking of the Eureka Perfetto with the ESE dial (after originally considering the Specialita before I discovered drip), but IÂ've read some very good things about the Niche. As I enjoy going out for coffee too IÂ'd never spend more than Â£500 on a grinder and my machine is only a 2006 Gaggia Classic. Will the Niche be a good choice for me?


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

Rnash said:


> Hello everyone, fairly new here. Would like to buy a grinder. I did drink mainly espresso - couple in the morning, maybe one in the afternoon and one in the evening - but recently IÂ'm drinking more pour overs. I like the fruitier more flowery African coffees. I was thinking of the Eureka Perfetto with the ESE dial (after originally considering the Specialita before I discovered drip), but IÂ've read some very good things about the Niche. As I enjoy going out for coffee too IÂ'd never spend more than Â£500 on a grinder and my machine is only a 2006 Gaggia Classic. Will the Niche be a good choice for me?


Hi, I've got a Gaggia Classic & a Niche & while I wouldn't say no to upgrading my espresso machine it's a combination that I think works really well.


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## Rnash (Jul 20, 2018)

Jon_Foster said:


> Hi, I've got a Gaggia Classic & a Niche & while I wouldn't say no to upgrading my espresso machine it's a combination that I think works really well.


many thanks for that Jon. I won't be disappointed with my espressos? Do you find it works well with the fruitier roasts and the darker ones?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rnash said:


> many thanks for that Jon. I won't be disappointed with my espressos? Do you find it works well with the fruitier roasts and the darker ones?


I have a lovely Rawandan microlot, Black Cherry and dark chocolate and it works really well with that bean....plus conicals are believed to be great for darker roasts.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Rnash said:


> many thanks for that Jon. I won't be disappointed with my espressos? Do you find it works well with the fruitier roasts and the darker ones?


So long as you are aware of the Classic's shortcomings and understand how it fluctuates in temperature as the boiler goes through it's cycle then you can pull great espresso from it. It fares much better with a PID.

It may be worth considering a Sage DTP - it also has it's pros and cons. Pros being that it is much more thermally stable than the Classic, cons being that if it breaks you'll probably just need to buy a new one.


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## Rnash (Jul 20, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> I have a lovely Rawandan microlot, Black Cherry and dark chocolate and it works really well with that bean....plus conicals are believed to be great for darker roasts.


I think I prefer some of the lighter, fruity numbers Dave. Should I try something else or is this all angels dancing on the head of a pin stuff?


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

Rnash said:


> many thanks for that Jon. I won't be disappointed with my espressos? Do you find it works well with the fruitier roasts and the darker ones?


No probs









I really don't think you'll be disappointed, I pretty much exclusively use lighter roasts and I'm very happy with it, shots are much fruitier and brighter than they were with my previous grinder (Ascaso i-steel).

As @Dylan mentioned, fitting a PID makes a big difference to the Classic, a @MrShades PID is definitely something I'd recommend.

Thread below









https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?31342-MrShades-Gaggia-Classic-PID-Kit-(1-32DIN)-Complete-PID-kit-with-full-guide-%A394


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Can I chime in here as it was my original post, if light is your thing and you have the money get one of the better flats, or hunt out a good used big flat. Just my pennies worth


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rnash said:


> I think I prefer some of the lighter, fruity numbers Dave. Should I try something else or is this all angels dancing on the head of a pin stuff?


Up to you, I think the Niche is fine for all types of roasts, others will swear by flat burrs...you pays your money and takes your choice.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Yea but one of us actually is right.

It all just depends who it is.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dylan said:


> Yea but one of us actually is right.
> 
> It all just depends who it is.


It is just opinion, so we can all be right.....!


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I agree with Dave... (not saying which one lol)


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## Rnash (Jul 20, 2018)

coffeechap said:


> Indeed


Â-Â-Â--

literally no nearer to making a decision; I wish you could try a grinder like a pair of shoes!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

If you put your location in your profile, perhaps a user close to you might be able to help you out.


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## Rnash (Jul 20, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> If you put your location in your profile, perhaps a user close to you might be able to help you out.


--

yes, good idea...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

i'm close to you Byfleet Surrey. should you want to try a Niche with your machine, welcome to pop over with your classic.


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## aoxomoxoa (May 2, 2017)

I'm outside Oxford, just near the M40 if that's more convenient. Also have the Niche. Used to have a Classic, but upgraded a couple of years ago to an ECM Barista.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Rnash said:


> Â-Â-Â--
> 
> literally no nearer to making a decision; I wish you could try a grinder like a pair of shoes!


A test drive of grinders for folk could be a great USP for a retailer, not really viable though as the amount of test kit would be cost prohibitive


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Rnash said:


> Â-Â-Â--
> 
> literally no nearer to making a decision; I wish you could try a grinder like a pair of shoes!


You are over thinking it.

Forget conical v flat in this small kitchen grinder price range.

It won't be as good as a mythos or a ek etc but are those realistic choices for you anyway?

Do you want a ex commercial big grinder, if no then go to niche, do not pass go.

If your choice is between a mignon and a niche and you want to have brewed as well then it's a bit of a non brainer.


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## Rnash (Jul 20, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> i'm close to you Byfleet Surrey. should you want to try a Niche with your machine, welcome to pop over with your classic.


--

That's incredibly generous, Dave. What times are convenient for you?


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## Rnash (Jul 20, 2018)

That's a ringing endorsement for the Niche! Sadly over-thinking things is a fault of mine!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rnash said:


> --
> 
> That's incredibly generous, Dave. What times are convenient for you?


I don't work so any time after 9:30 and weekdays or many times at weekends, drop me a pm.


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## tohenk2 (Oct 11, 2017)

Dylan said:


> Yea but one of us actually is right.
> 
> It all just depends who it is.


Why - my wife off course.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Mrboots2u said:


> You are over thinking it.
> 
> Forget conical v flat in this small kitchen grinder price range.
> 
> ...


I agree with this.

Whilst it's nice and very worthwhile to go to the trouble of doing comparisons with much more expensive grinders, you shouldn't forget the fact that it's a very well put together domestic kitchen appliance and not a multi thousand pound commercial workhorse, with the size, weight and impracticality that comes with having that in a domestic environment.

If money is no object, then buy the best.

If you don't mind how grinders look and budget is tighter, maybe a large flat ex commercial and something like a Wllfa Svart may be a better option.

If you want a small grinder at a relatively affordable price, that can do multiple brew methods without hassle, then I personally think the Niche is the best value grinder out there.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Rnash said:


> --
> 
> That's incredibly generous, Dave. What times are convenient for you?


Even take your beans with you. I'd be rather surprised if you were disappointed.

Problem with new things. People have stated, earthy taste immediately apparent, lacks the punch of big flats. My first few shots via Niche were not much different to the grinder I had been using - reason I just did what I did with that. For various reasons I decided to drop the dose. Big difference. I've dropped it again now. Next problem in my case what's the best way to get the grinds out of the can into the portafilter and ready to go. Little things stack up and personally I've found when ever I change a major item I also need to change what I do so I wouldn't quickly make my mind up about any of them. What I have finished up with matches what people reckon I would notice if I had changed to big flat burrs.








Ok I haven't used a big flats grinder. Probably will at some point. I don't mind buying things to try and then sell providing losses aren't excessive. Even if just for the sake of curiosity.

One other point. I had been using a flat burr grinder in zero retention mode weighing in for months. Kg's of beans in total. It involves a lot of faffing about and some grinders would prove unsuitable. That aspect should be considered as well.

John

-


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

ajohn said:


> ...
> 
> Problem with new things. People have stated, earthy taste immediately apparent, lacks the punch of big flats. My first few shots via Niche were not much different to the grinder I had been using - reason I just did what I did with that. For various reasons I decided to drop the dose. Big difference. I've dropped it again now. Next problem in my case what's the best way to get the grinds out of the can into the portafilter and ready to go. Little things stack up and personally I've found when ever I change a major item I also need to change what I do so I wouldn't quickly make my mind up about any of them. What I have finished up with matches what people reckon I would notice if I had changed to big flat burrs.


I must admit being a little "at sea" this last week with some fresh beans having also changed a couple of things, Niche a few months ago, then added a pid a few weeks ago and then changed tamper - i'm sure the tamper hasn't made much difference but it makes you think it does...









Dialled the grind in as normal the setting seemed a little courser perhaps, and the extractions were lacking crema and flavour - i tried a few things like go finer and a bit longer, and having a cold sort of numbs your taste buds as well, so put it off for a while. I suspect before the PID i was extracting at possibly a (too) higher temperature.

The Niche started it off... and the first thing i noticed months ago was i needed to reduce the dose down from 19g -> 18.5 - perhaps before i was mainly dosing by volume and very occasionally would weigh it so 19g might have been high, the previous grinder an MDF certainly wasn't as fluffy as the Niche, but that could be the MDF's dosing lever thing. Is there a fluffy cat analogy developing here? ...

Just this weekend it dawned on me and after this post, i needed to try something as the used grinds felt a little course between my fingers, so i just dropped to 18.0g - same grind - immediate improvement, (counter intuitive - less coffee more flavour) then 17.5g again another improvement, then 17g about the same although i've hit my daily limit at that point.

I'm not sure how low to go, but i'll experiment a little and find the middle ground (pun intended)









That is the nice thing about the Niche - it's easy to be precise and to experiment.

Still haven't found the best technique to get the grinds roughly level in the basket, currently over rating anti clockwise and back seems to stop the alps forming on the RHS.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Agentb said:


> I must admit being a little "at sea" this last week with some fresh beans having also changed a couple of things, Niche a few months ago, then added a pid a few weeks ago and then changed tamper - i'm sure the tamper hasn't made much difference but it makes you think it does...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your finding what I found by the sound of it. Many months of 14g in the same filter basket (LOL probably over a year). I am sure I wasn't overdosing. As a for instance apart from having used various weights all I had to do was turn the portafilter over to get the puck to fall out. Something made me wonder about the puck so dropped the dose by 1/2g. Immediate improvement even when the tuning was wrong. So now run 13g in the same basket. This was with the same batch of beans. I'm running a fresh batch and no need to change anything so far. 1/2g shouldn't make that much difference.

I push a button for a shot so always 30sec. I'm getting fair number of 33.Xg shots now. I have had problems in that area. Some'll love this - done after the grinds are in the can

Light tap of the can on the mat. I'll probably stop that now. It did do something before I polished the inside of the can.

Stir with a wooden kebab stick - idea to level out the pressure/compaction in the grinds.

Fit the portafilter and invert noting the angle and tap moderately onto the mat at the right angle to try and level the grounds.

3 or 4 hard taps on the mat to get the grinds well down.

Smack the top of the can - sometimes a tiny bit is left in if I don't.

Rattle the can around a little just in case a bit is trapped in the rim in it. Usually isn't now but sometimes was earlier on.

Remove and look at the grounds. Probably higher on one side so put a chisel levelling tool at 90 degrees to the high side. Sweep the high parts 1/2 way round each way. Then sweep all round. Loose fit in the basket so have to keep it pressed against the edge as I rotate it.

Then tamp, calibrated 15kg - twice no idea why, I just do. The tamper pressed the grinds down by around another mm or so.

Then polish with a bit of pressure keeping the edge of the tamper against the basket. I've found this helps in the past so just do it.

Set sized basket tools are out for me as my basket ID's vary so have to offset them. The basket I am using is along the same lines as a 15g VST, lots of perforation area. I have another same capacity and tapered but feel that it doesn't extract so much. Niche is set at 9.5. It was 10 to 11 with 14g in. That sort of indicates over dosing.








It'll take maybe a kg of beans and a reasonable range of shot sizes to come out to convince what I am doing works. Apart from a couple it has over a few 100g so far. Bad signs are a poor pour. If straight into one all seems ok, if a very quick 2 to 1 flow ok too by the look of it. Past that shot size goes down - or has so far. It needs another 2 or 3 secs to correct - again so far.

The tools I use are circa £20 items off amazon. The tamper came set to 20kg and finished up at 15 when I took it apart and put it back together.

John

-


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Agentb said:


> Still haven't found the best technique to get the grinds roughly level in the basket, currently over rating anti clockwise and back seems to stop the alps forming on the RHS.


I find a good Tap of the portafilter straight down - I do it onto the tamping stand I use (with a bottomless portafilter) - whilst the cup is still inside it.

It works much better than most other things I tried to get it level in the basket.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Thanks for the tap tips, it shrinks the alps to small hills.







Reducing the dose is helping as well, been playing down at 17g and dropping the grind finer, i'm two thirds of the way through the kilo, but we are now in a happier tastier place.

It's funny how you get into habits and you use observations to reinforce them. For example, i've noticed a lower dose will leave more water in the basket, so therefore you'll end up with a wetter puck, that doesn't knock out like a larger brick, but leaves a residue to wipe up. These things seem obvious and i was thinking (wrongly) it's bad, but actually It doesn't matter, (unless your passion is cleaning baskets), what matters is how does it taste, how much you are extracting and to a degree, look and feel in the cup. Just adjusting the grind (which what i was doing) now seems a bit one dimensional. The search continues...


----------



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Agentb said:


> Thanks for the tap tips, it shrinks the alps to small hills.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I really thump it down so no heap left at all. Think you'll find it might also leave a cleaner basket. Heavier tamping can too but may mean a grinder change.

John

-


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## rynogee (Jul 18, 2016)

this thread has been really interesting, I was about to order a niche, but thought I'd ask this first.

Do people think a niche is an upgrade, crossgrade, or downgrade, from a Rocket Fausto (which I believe is a rebranded Eureka) - for home use, 2 to 4 espressos a day.

We do mainly/only espresso, but we have to purge, weigh and reweigh, and redistribute the grinds we get from the Fausto, almost always. I think this is down to retention, and the timer just never giving us a very consistent dose.

We are not super frequent switchers of beans (usually on the same bean for at least a week)

We've never tried a conical, only flats, and all grinders I've had prior to the Fausto were lower again (some baratzas amongst other things).

But I always used to single dose before we got the Fausto.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

For single dosing the simple answer is yes


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

rynogee said:


> this thread has been really interesting, I was about to order a niche, but thought I'd ask this first.
> 
> Do people think a niche is an upgrade, crossgrade, or downgrade, from a Rocket Fausto (which I believe is a rebranded Eureka) - for home use, 2 to 4 espressos a day.
> 
> ...


I feel like you have pretty much answered your own question here! You want to single dose without retention and occasionally switch brew types... sounds like the perfect match.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

If you enjoy the faff of single dosing and retention of less than 1% is meaningful to you, then the Niche is an upgrade. If you value the simplicity of on demand and/or cannot taste the ca. 7% of previous day's stale coffee in the first cup of the day, or can give that cup to somebody who does not care, then the Niche is a downgrade. As regards any difference in taste only you will be able to judge.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Nikko said:


> If you enjoy the faff of single dosing and retention of less than 1% is meaningful to you, then the Niche is an upgrade. If you value the simplicity of on demand and/or cannot taste the ca. 7% of previous day's stale coffee in the first cup of the day, or can give that cup to somebody who does not care, then the Niche is a downgrade. As regards any difference in taste only you will be able to judge.


For once, I agree! I switched from a Compak E5 mainly for wife reasons. I love the simplicity of on demand. Using the Niche as I do, I hate having to weigh bean cellars every couple of days, but apart from that, I really enjoy the rest which is surprising. The actual quality of the grind is getting better as the burrs settle down. I slipped the burrs out last week and there was 0.02 gms that I could get out. Now, if only I could find a solution to having to fill those bloody bean cellars


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## rynogee (Jul 18, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> For once, I agree! I switched from a Compak E5 mainly for wife reasons. I love the simplicity of on demand. Using the Niche as I do, I hate having to weigh bean cellars every couple of days, but apart from that, I really enjoy the rest which is surprising. The actual quality of the grind is getting better as the burrs settle down. I slipped the burrs out last week and there was 0.02 gms that I could get out. Now, if only I could find a solution to having to fill those bloody bean cellars


The only problem here (for us) is that we have had loads of trouble getting consistent shots from our machine (a bezzera unica pid) where the dose result in the PF is out by small amounts. Hence we weigh the dose in the PF before we pull a shot, everytime (sometimes topping it up, sometimes removing some). So the workflow of a sensitive machine in combination with a variable dosing grinder, means we have an automated setup that basically runs like the same as a single dosing setup anyway. (the machine was serviced not that long ago, incidentally).

Hence it's not as simple as it seems to me.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

rynogee said:


> The only problem here (for us) is that we have had loads of trouble getting consistent shots from our machine (a bezzera unica pid) where the dose result in the PF is out by small amounts. Hence we weigh the dose in the PF before we pull a shot, everytime (sometimes topping it up, sometimes removing some). So the workflow of a sensitive machine in combination with a variable dosing grinder, means we have an automated setup that basically runs like the same as a single dosing setup anyway. (the machine was serviced not that long ago, incidentally).
> 
> Hence it's not as simple as it seems to me.


Measure the automatic output on your grinder, 10 times in a row and see what the consistency is. The Niche seems to give a much finer grind so on my machine, I might not get any drips come through for up to 20 seconds, but then once it starts, it flows normally and tastes great


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> For once, I agree! I switched from a Compak E5 mainly for wife reasons. I love the simplicity of on demand. Using the Niche as I do, I hate having to weigh bean cellars every couple of days, but apart from that, I really enjoy the rest which is surprising. The actual quality of the grind is getting better as the burrs settle down. I slipped the burrs out last week and there was 0.02 gms that I could get out. Now, if only I could find a solution to having to fill those bloody bean cellars


Excellent you agree that the FFP is better than the CFP


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Excellent you agree that the FFP is better than the CFP


old age, what's an ffp?


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Conical/Flat Flavour Profile.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

PPapa said:


> Conical/Flat Flavour Profile.


Many thanks! I am not sure where the dude came to the conclusion I prefer flats though....perhaps he could show me where I said that?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Many thanks! I am not sure where the dude came to the conclusion I prefer flats though....perhaps he could show me where I said that?


I was merely pointing out that you agreed with the previous post and thus agree with its content


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Many thanks! I am not sure where the dude came to the conclusion I prefer flats though....perhaps he could show me where I said that?


You have always preferred a conic to a flat, probably based on the roast levels of the stuff you drink, which conic are you using right now?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> I was merely pointing out that you agreed with the previous post and thus agree with its content


Nope, I have read and re read Nikkos post and I cannot see where he says that he prefers a flat to a conic....please show me the error of my ways


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

In terms of what goes in coming out I found that can be matched by a Mazzer Mini but it needs several uses of a brush and a lens hood puffer and more than one spin up of the grinder. If I measured retention I doubt if they would much difference to Niche other than probably more permanent that just stays there. I also added a weight too prevent most of the popcorning. I'd imagine this could be done with any grinder that has a funnel rather than a spout/chute for the grinds to come out of.

So a Niche is more convenient. In my view popcorning like it gives is much less of a problem than flat burrs. Go stick some numbers in a g force calculator to see why that may be. The other aspect is that gravity gets the beans to the burrs rather than g from the spin rate. Once there conical adds it's own mechanical force to get beans through the burrs. That's not as extreme as on say an SGP but the effect is still there.

Prep for me is into can, stir, tap lightly, invert into the portfilter, tap at an angle to level the heap and then really tap them down, smack and rattle the can and then remove. Heap is all within the basket but wont be level. What comes next in my case is to part tamp with a chisel tool. This so far is giving the best 30sec shot consistency.

Setting the grind is much better than the mini. I found 1/2 a division on Niche changed the shot from 38 to 33g. Even smaller changes can be made with ease.

Curious things. When I started I used the dose and basket I always use. Via mini the used puck just dropped out when I inverted the portafilter leaving near nothing behind. Didn't via the Niche so dropped the dose by 1/2g from 14. Surprising favourable taste change







and the puck still didn't just drop out. Also some bits left behind. Not badly providing I work as I do so suspect a brush of some sort will be by the knock box but in real terms the basket could just be filled again. For some reason Niche grinds seem to expand more. Probably fits in with the delayed flow start that has been mentioned.

Bean changes - I use one that is so oily it will literally stick to things and does. Sticking something else through messed things up a bit when I went back to them.







Doesn't surprise me as it's why I finished up with 2 grinders early on. Niche soon settled down and as it's a fairly lenient bean in some ways results were drinkable but not as they should be. The main problem is that I could have tried several grind setting changes. As I thought this might happen I left it set as it was from the last time it had got used to the bean.








So as grinders usually involve some sort of compromise I'd say on balance a Niche is a good idea.

John

-


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## Gforce (Feb 21, 2019)

Hi everyone.

As someone who is really only starting out, is this a product that might be a bit 'further down the road' for me? To be honest, as good as it seems (and looks), £500 is probably just a bit beyond what I originally thought I would be spending on a machine and grinder combined. I get the impression that if one had to choose focus, it should be on the grinder. But I was originally looking at the Sage Smart Grinder Pro (which, before I stumbled across this forum and the sea of other options out there, had me foolishly thinking that it was a premium machine). Does the Niche really deliver that much better a grind? Or is it mostly about residue (and looks)?

On the looks front, my wife doesn't drink coffee at all, so this newfound interest is a solo endeavour unfortunately - she's not that keen on the idea of me taking over the kitchen with machines and flux-capacitor PID kits, so this good-looking product might be an easier sell (provided I say nothing about the price!)

One way to go might be to splurge on this, get to use it on my Bialetti pot for now (already going to feel the difference as it's pre-ground at the moment), wait a bit and get the Gaggia Classic second hand (and mod it) further down the road? Otherwise I could do the GC now and go for the cheaper Sage?

Any advice? (Thanks in advance.)


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Gforce said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> As someone who is really only starting out, is this a product that might be a bit 'further down the road' for me? To be honest, as good as it seems (and looks), £500 is probably just a bit beyond what I originally thought I would be spending on a machine and grinder combined. I get the impression that if one had to choose focus, it should be on the grinder. But I was originally looking at the Sage Smart Grinder Pro (which, before I stumbled across this forum and the sea of other options out there, had me foolishly thinking that it was a premium machine). Does the Niche really deliver that much better a grind? Or is it mostly about residue (and looks)?
> 
> ...


I'd buy the Niche. It's hard to overstate the improvement in the resultant coffee between a £150 and a £500 grinder. The change is far more significant that the equivalent money spent on the machine.

Inevitably it will only be another 6 weeks till you somehow manage to come up with the cash for the classic that you really want, and you will then have a more-than capable grinder.

Sounds the ideal route to me!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Gforce said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> As someone who is really only starting out, is this a product that might be a bit 'further down the road' for me? To be honest, as good as it seems (and looks), £500 is probably just a bit beyond what I originally thought I would be spending on a machine and grinder combined. I get the impression that if one had to choose focus, it should be on the grinder. But I was originally looking at the Sage Smart Grinder Pro (which, before I stumbled across this forum and the sea of other options out there, had me foolishly thinking that it was a premium machine). Does the Niche really deliver that much better a grind? Or is it mostly about residue (and looks)?
> 
> ...


A lot of people use Smart Grinder Pro's and I feel it gets far more bad press than it deserves. It can make descent coffee. When I see posts like yours and similar when various grinders are too expensive I feel inclined to say buy one so this time I have. Catch - when and if you upgrades you will have paid X for it, not sure of current prices and when and if you sell you will get around £100 for it.







Similar things happen when any grinder is bought new. Like Niche it's aimed at grinding for all methods. It's also possible to weigh beans in on it and once it's settled down get remarkably accurate outputs. That is how I mostly used mine but it didn't like a really oily bean that I use a lot. Eventually the grinder would choke and need cleaning. I had no problems at all with many other beans I ran through it that way. The same bean has a problem on Niche - I can't simply change beans as another type of bean cleans the oil off and that messes things up if I go back to it.







It also messed up the grinder in the Barista Express and the SGP in the same way so my conclusion is if i want to drink it and try others I need 2 grinders as too much messing about otherwise. The bean is pretty unique so the same doesn't apply to many others.

You may have read about conic and flat taste profiles. I'd be inclined to say it's conic. If you go for flat people will tell you that big burrs are best.







There is no end to how much people could spend on grinders to the tune of a surprising number of £k. What I would say about the SGP Is that in it's price range it doesn't really have any competition.

"Best" reason I have seen for upgrading - motor speed varying as beans are ground so it was struggling other wise I wouldn't have bothered. No it wasn't it's a characteristic of the type of motor it uses. Must admit I never ground any super lightly roasted beans on mine but did grind various medium and dark roasts. Sage have modified it a few times over the years and it's sold all over the place so I'd suspect that in real terms it can handle what ever is thrown at it.

John

-


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Gforce said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> As someone who is really only starting out, is this a product that might be a bit 'further down the road' for me? To be honest, as good as it seems (and looks), £500 is probably just a bit beyond what I originally thought I would be spending on a machine and grinder combined. I get the impression that if one had to choose focus, it should be on the grinder. But I was originally looking at the Sage Smart Grinder Pro (which, before I stumbled across this forum and the sea of other options out there, had me foolishly thinking that it was a premium machine). Does the Niche really deliver that much better a grind? Or is it mostly about residue (and looks)?
> 
> ...


This is a bit of a sweeping generalisation, but USUALLY the more you spend on equipment, the easier it is more a beginner to get consistent good results. Cheap single boiler machines and grinders are fine, but if you are talking espresso as opposed to brew, you may end up upgrading in a short time.

If you do decide to go foor a grinder of some sort first, why not try a V60 or chemex whilst you save for a machine. V60 in particular is cheap as chips and will give you a better brew than Moka pot. Most people find that they are neither espresso or filter strength and tend to heat the grounds too much as well.

You'll need scales for a v60, but you'll need them for your grinder and espresso machine when you get one anyway.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ajohn said:


> A lot of people use Smart Grinder Pro's and I feel it gets far more bad press than it deserves. It can make descent coffee. When I see posts like yours and similar when various grinders are too expensive I feel inclined to say buy one so this time I have. Catch - when and if you upgrades you will have paid X for it, not sure of current prices and when and if you sell you will get around £100 for it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which of these two grinders is more likely to be alive in 2 years time, or 5 years, or 10 years....


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Which of these two grinders is more likely to be alive in 2 years time, or 5 years, or 10 years....










Buy both and find out.

I have read that this part wears out after 18months or so of heavy home use

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2939428

It now has a steel cover.

There is talk of having to shim them - they introduced an adjustable outer burr. From what I can gather this usually doesn't need touching. Some buy them and immediately alter the setting - plenty of videos about mentioning that. Do that and run it empty on too low a setting and the burrs will rub and wreck it pretty quickly. Personally I checked mine empty on a setting of 1 when i received it and found that they were rubbing too much so opened the setting up. Some crack pot reviews see the adjustable burr as a further settings,

The Smart Grinder Pro is the recent model. The earlier one was just called the Smart Grinder.

If some one can't afford a certain grinder they can't afford it. It seems that some find that hard to grasp. There can be all sorts of reasons and in this case the difference is well over a factor of 2 leaving a significant amount to put towards a machine.

John

-


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## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

ajohn said:


> Buy both and find out.
> 
> I have read that this part wears out after 18months or so of heavy home use
> 
> ...


Completely agree with your final paragraph there. I said in another thread that I got in on niche right at the beginning and it was a stretch to pay the £360. I think it's worth the £499 now, but I wouldn't personally be able to buy it because it's not that much of a priority for me and the Mrs would kill me... Already bent the truth slightly on how much I spent on it at the original price







and I sold a eureka mignon to afford it.

So yeah, worth the 499, but it's a lot to spend on a first or second grinder I think.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I was not knocking anyone's ability to buy a particular bit of kit. Ajohn has a desire to buy certain sorts of kit, test it in the hope that he has discovered the Golden Fleece, fails then buys something else and the hunt starts all over again


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

cold war kid said:


> This is a bit of a sweeping generalisation, but USUALLY the more you spend on equipment, the easier it is more a beginner to get consistent good results. Cheap single boiler machines and grinders are fine, but if you are talking espresso as opposed to brew, you may end up upgrading in a short time.
> 
> If you do decide to go foor a grinder of some sort first, why not try a V60 or chemex whilst you save for a machine. V60 in particular is cheap as chips and will give you a better brew than Moka pot. Most people find that they are neither espresso or filter strength and tend to heat the grounds too much as well.
> 
> You'll need scales for a v60, but you'll need them for your grinder and espresso machine when you get one anyway.


What he said...


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## Zagato (Jul 24, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> What he said...


This is a good plan


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## Gforce (Feb 21, 2019)

That's hilarious because I just had the conversation with my wife about this. She went from going "you deserve to get yourself a coffee machine" to "a grinder is what? How much?? But you can't even drink the coffee afterwards!"

In a way I think she might be right. I've no doubt the Zero is the absolute nuts, but for me, right now, I think my learn curve and curiosity will be fine with the Sage and a good second-hand Gaggia Classic. I'm already jumping from Moka pots and Nespresso machines, so I'm going in the right direction at least.

I do do appreciate the feedback and debate though, thanks.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

I am attaching some pictures of ground coffee by Niche.


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

L&R said:


> I am attaching some pictures of ground coffee by Niche.
> 
> View attachment 39228
> View attachment 39229
> ...


That's put me right off my coffee!


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

And for comparison ground by Ceado E37S flat


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Amazing







, is this an espresso grind or more coarser?

Are the photos before or after tamping, and what sort of magnification does the picture show?

Neither of the photos look like coffee!


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Too much time on your hands.


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## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

Jony said:


> Too much time on your hands.


aye


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

Why O Why O Why ... first thing that came to mind ... question is what's next ?


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Ground for espresso and not tamped similar size for both. Particles from conical grinders are more "3D" compared with a flat burrs one.


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## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

L&R said:


> Ground for espresso and not tamped similar size for both. Particles from conical grinders are more "3D" compared with a flat burrs one.


--- maybe like silver plated copper wires in speaker cable lead to a 'brighter sound'? Convince me with some taste descriptions please.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

L&R said:


> Ground for espresso and not tamped similar size for both. Particles from conical grinders are more "3D" compared with a flat burrs one.


More 3d?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

L&R said:


> Ground for espresso and not tamped similar size for both. Particles from conical grinders are more "3D" compared with a flat burrs one.










It looks a bit flaky

Which funnily enough is interesting. Best not explain why







be too much for some.

John

-.


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## Beanbiken (Oct 4, 2018)

Hmm, glad the coffee that is made with the grinds from my NZ is fine by me. Whilst I'm interested but I feel we analyze things way too much at times.........

BB


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I think posts and photos like this show people what we are about...really digging into stuff, not being content to assume, but test and share. I am sure some valuable insights will come from this and work like it. Definitely keep at it the photos were really interesting...who knew. I wonder what they would look like under a polarised light source, or monochromatic light. Even more interesting might be the same photos but after they have absorbed water...perhaps they absorb it differently.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

So finally they moved production in China, nothing wrong with this, now Niche will be produced in volumes and probably price will go down.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

L&R said:


> So finally they moved production in China, nothing wrong with this, now Niche will be produced in volumes and probably price will go down.
> 
> View attachment 39600


Margins will go up, price won't go down.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Margins will go up, price won't go down.










The ones labelled designed and assembled in the UK will become collectors items. The Science museum will buy DavecUk's early model.

Price pass.







I've got so used to paying too much for things I can't estimate manufacturing costs any more.

John

-


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The Chinese (when the right factories are chosen), can be VERY good at making stuff. I would Imagine it's going to be good for quality control even if they can no longer assemble within the company in the UK and have to pay for it to be done. Plus the resources of a modern factory behind it.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Technologies, materials and Factories are all in China nowadays. I don't find any difference between UK assembled Niche and CN one for now.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

As long as the right factories are used in China, I saw photos of the factory and production line....it was very very impressive and very hi tech.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> The Chinese (when the right factories are chosen), can be VERY good at making stuff. I would Imagine it's going to be good for quality control even if they can no longer assemble within the company in the UK and have to pay for it to be done. Plus the resources of a modern factory behind it.


Yeah agree re quality, I think that expecting any potential savings ( and we do not know there are savings ) to be passed on in a price reduction is unlikely.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Yeah agree re quality, I think that expecting any potential savings ( and we do not know there are savings ) to be passed on in a price reduction is unlikely.


Well the materials are the same, so those costs are pretty much fixed and not having your family work 16 hours per day to build them (where you don't see the true cost) can actually add a bit of cost in return for time. When a business moves from home production to paying a factory to make them, it's at best cost neutral and often costs a little more. I do think though that a modern well run factory can bring benefits of consistency of product and quality. It also means more muscle to ensure suppliers also maintain the quality of parts. The grinders is priced about right and hopefully will be kept at that price.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

L&R said:


> So finally they moved production in China, nothing wrong with this, now Niche will be produced in volumes and probably price will go down.
> 
> View attachment 39600


Interesting (well i notice these sort of things) the new Nemko (N) mark (Norway) , I suspect that covers the EU as well as the CE mark.

See https://www.nemko.com/certification/product-certification/europe/nemko-n-mark


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## Junglebert (Jan 7, 2019)

The price to the end user is unlikely to change, but it'll mean they can build more, and sell them at trade prices into retailers.


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

@coffeechap did you manage the Santos comparison?


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## Nick1881 (Dec 18, 2018)

I've finally caved in and ordered a Niche Zero, after drooling over them for a while.

Does anyone know how long they take to arrive, I've had a could of emails from indiegogo but that's it so far.

Should be a nice upgrade from my Sage SGP.


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## itn (Jul 6, 2008)

Ive had delivery of mines today after ordering wed night.

Mo


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## Nick1881 (Dec 18, 2018)

That's pretty quick. Did you get emails from Niche before the delivery?


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## itn (Jul 6, 2008)

Nick1881 said:


> That's pretty quick. Did you get emails from Niche before the delivery?


Yeah and texts


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

I ordered last night, too. I would imagine it won't be dispatched TIL Monday now, but we'll see!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I think they should actually move off Indegogo now as I suspect sales will increase even more once word gets out that you don't have to wait any more and I don't think it's great that the competition gets full visibility of the run rate!


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## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

Nick1881 said:


> I've finally caved in and ordered a Niche Zero, after drooling over them for a while.
> 
> Does anyone know how long they take to arrive, I've had a could of emails from indiegogo but that's it so far.
> 
> Should be a nice upgrade from my Sage SGP.


Great upgrade, you'll love it


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## nicholasj (Nov 11, 2013)

filthynines said:


> I ordered last night, too. I would imagine it won't be dispatched TIL Monday now, but we'll see!


 But there is VAT to pay as a non business user (home use)? So £600?


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## Endless River (Nov 12, 2014)

nicholasj said:


> But there is VAT to pay as a non business user (home use)? So £600?


 No vat man......£500 to you no matter if you are a home user or a business user


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

nicholasj said:


> But there is VAT to pay as a non business user (home use)? So £600?


 Your just talking yourself out of this. Lower your budget and get a used Mazzer


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

Endless River said:


> No vat man......£500 to you no matter if you are a home user or a business user


 This is correct. And it's a great bit of kit.


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## nicholasj (Nov 11, 2013)

Endless River said:


> No vat man......£500 to you no matter if you are a home user or a business user


 Therefore it's shipped in from an EU country?


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## Endless River (Nov 12, 2014)

nicholasj said:


> Therefore it's shipped in from an EU country?


 £500 price includes any vat man....not sure but I think (beyond me understanding) that i you are a business you may be able to claim the vat back


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

I wonder (and I honestly don't know) whether the VAT treatment is different on a crowdfunding campaign.

edit: The answer seems to be that VAT should be payable. There was no VAT on the receipt from Indiegogo, therefore to the consumer at least VAT is included in the £499. Whether Niche have paid it is another matter.

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-finance-manual/vatfin5550


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## nicholasj (Nov 11, 2013)

Endless River said:


> £500 price includes any vat man....not sure but I think (beyond me understanding) that i you are a business you may be able to claim the vat back


 No, I'm not a business. On the rare occasion I've bought items from outside the EU (Japan and USA in particular) I've received a VAT invoice from the courier a month later.

but if you guys just paid just £499.00 then that's good. Also as postage is relatively low (£10.00) it could be EU based.

I'm sure someone here will know the answer!??, cheers


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

You won't pay extra VAT, it's included and product is shipped from within EU (specifically the UK). The price you see is the price you pay.


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> You won't pay extra VAT, it's included and product is shipped from within EU (specifically the UK). The price you see is the price you pay.


 Somebody might wish to gently nudge the guys at Niche and point out that they need to make arrangements for their sales docs to comply with VAT law. This may be another flaw in using the Indiegogo platform, but ultimately there needs to be compliance.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

filthynines said:


> Somebody might wish to gently nudge the guys at Niche and point out that they need to make arrangements for their sales docs to comply with VAT law. This may be another flaw in using the Indiegogo platform, but ultimately there needs to be compliance.


 Why don't you do give them the guidance....seems like you have all the information and expertise they need....You keep asking others to do it for you, you mention it a lot...I'm sure they would welcome your contact? If nothing else it would probably ease your obvious concerns to have that direct input and reassurance.


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Why don't you do give them the guidance....seems like you have all the information and expertise they need....You keep asking others to do it for you, you mention it a lot...I'm sure they would welcome your contact? If nothing else it would probably ease your obvious concerns to have that direct input and reassurance.


 "A lot" might be pushing it Dave. You take an interest in the engineering side, I take an interest in the consumer and regulatory side. Happy to suggest it myself.


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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

filthynines said:


> Somebody might wish to gently nudge the guys at Niche and point out that they need to make arrangements for their sales docs to comply with VAT law. This may be another flaw in using the Indiegogo platform, but ultimately there needs to be compliance.


 It is a very valid point, @filthynines. Shipments to USA (seemingly erroneously) include the VAT, apparently. I saw recent posts on an American forum complaining about this very thing. It is easily solved with simple paperwork by IndieGoGo (&/or Niche).


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## Inspector (Feb 23, 2017)

Don't know if this has been posted here before.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

that's quite clever, Im guessing the motor spins quite fast which is why it needs the layered step down gear box ?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

What speed does it spin at?


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

~330 rpm is the otuput


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

L&R said:


> ~330 rpm is the otuput


 Exactly but that's not the spin speed of the motor that is the feared speed


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

If someone recognizes the dc motor in NZ, can be found out with the producer.


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## Inspector (Feb 23, 2017)

I googled the numbers but nothing came up


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

A small clue same producer makes motors for kitchen aid appliances 

https://www.fishpond.co.nz/Kitchen/W10845883-Kitchenaid-Burr-Coffee-Grinder-Motor/5055697512850


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

I think that this is the producer of the motor 

http://www.cclmotors.com/website/eng/product-list?cat=10

http://www.cclmotors.com/public/assets/common/images/product/product/product-72/spec.pdf?1563040807

rpm ~ 4000-5000 ?


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

good to know you can get a replacement motor, I suspect its a made in china motor ( they all are these days in most domestic appliances) this might be it at $6 a pop but its guesswork it doesn't seem quite as well finished as the one in the strip down and spins at 10,000 rpm before the gearbox !!

https://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/DC-motor/p/sm/1092505022.htm?WT.pos_kw=prod_PrdtKWSImage_2_38_230v+dc+motor+52mm_NonSP&WT.sad_id=1092505022#1092505022

point is that a few years down the line is there a spare parts market and availability or do they head for recycling / landfill, I hope spares do become available as the majority seem happy enough with the performance and package and its much better in my books to repair stuff, less Co2 , green etc

Still waiting for a flat 83mm version but suspect it will need a bigger motor


----------



## Saltydog (Jan 27, 2019)

jimbojohn55 said:


> good to know you can get a replacement motor, I suspect its a made in china motor ( they all are these days in most domestic appliances) this might be it at $6 a pop but its guesswork it doesn't seem quite as well finished as the one in the strip down and spins at 10,000 rpm before the gearbox !!
> 
> https://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/DC-motor/p/sm/1092505022.htm?WT.pos_kw=prod_PrdtKWSImage_2_38_230v+dc+motor+52mm_NonSP&WT.sad_id=1092505022#1092505022
> 
> ...


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jimbojohn55 said:


> good to know you can get a replacement motor, I suspect its a made in china motor ( they all are these days in most domestic appliances) this might be it at $6 a pop but its guesswork it doesn't seem quite as well finished as the one in the strip down and spins at 10,000 rpm before the gearbox !!
> 
> https://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/DC-motor/p/sm/1092505022.htm?WT.pos_kw=prod_PrdAn an tKWSImage_2_38_230v+dc+motor+52mm_NonSP&WT.sad_id=1092505022#1092505022
> 
> ...


 And an auger probably and alot more counter space , and alot more price.

The Niche set out with a good idea in mind, small, home friendly , zero retention , not a stupid price and work from there .

When we ( geeks ) think about a grinder we work from a different perspective and try and back engineer it, that's why Niche made a grinder that fulfils their ethos and is affordableish and Monoliths cost £1000's

" I want an 83 mm flat burr, oh yeah , zero retention and under £600 and that the wife likes...what do you mean it doesnt come in red "


----------



## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

jimbojohn55 said:


> good to know you can get a replacement motor, I suspect its a made in china motor ( they all are these days in most domestic appliances) this might be it at $6 a pop but its guesswork it doesn't seem quite as well finished as the one in the strip down and spins at 10,000 rpm before the gearbox !!
> 
> https://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/DC-motor/p/sm/1092505022.htm?WT.pos_kw=prod_PrdtKWSImage_2_38_230v+dc+motor+52mm_NonSP&WT.sad_id=1092505022#1092505022
> 
> ...


 Jim will be doing a thread on pimp my Niche in ten years time ?.. To be fair , I seem to remember that part of the vision of the inventor was to have cheap spares available .Most if not all repairs would be under warranty at this time ..


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

tbh I don't like the top heavy shape, or internals - give me an ex commercial every time - you've given me an idea for a project though 'the Nosher' with much bigger motor and flat 83mm burrs to keep Hoffman happy ?


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

jimbojohn55 said:


> tbh I don't like the top heavy shape, or internals - give me an ex commercial every time - you've given me an idea for a project though 'the Nosher' with much bigger motor and flat 83mm burrs to keep Hoffman happy ?


 I have also always liked big motors ,ones that always have power to spare over what is needed .. Especially with tools . It is satisfying to know commercials type grinders have gone through 200,000 shots .. I failed on that count when I bought the HG 1 recently .?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jimbojohn55 said:


> tbh I don't like the top heavy shape, or internals - give me an ex commercial every time - you've given me an idea for a project though 'the Nosher' with much bigger motor and flat 83mm burrs to keep Hoffman happy ?


 It's odd isn't it grinders based on ex commercial ones I suspect have a significantly smaller home market than the Niche and yet has more competition ( if money is no object ) and from people who are happy just to get the stuff that comes up second hand .

The aspiration grinder keeps getting more and more expensive from when I had an EK , and i would never have paid RRP for the one i had.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> It's odd isn't it grinders based on ex commercial ones I suspect have a significantly smaller home market than the Niche and yet has more competition ( if money is no object ) and from people who are happy just to get the stuff that comes up second hand .
> 
> The aspiration grinder keeps getting more and more expensive from when I had an EK , and i would never have paid RRP for the one i had.


 For me its about quality in the cup for your £ - think I can feel a project coming on


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jimbojohn55 said:


> For me its about quality in the cup for your £ - think I can feel a project coming on


 Quality v £'s is a hard one, for some £2500 gives enough marginal gains , for others it doesn't . Some will just want whatever is new and the most expensive , that's life and that's hobbies, ot just with coffee .

I'd be lying is i said I wouldnt have a flat burr , true single doser, that fits under my cabinet in the kitchen for £600. I wouldn't be alone in this though  .


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Nicknak said:


> I have also always liked big motors ,ones that always have power to spare over what is needed .. Especially with tools . It is satisfying to know commercials type grinders have gone through 200,000 shots .. I failed on that count when I bought the HG 1 recently .?


 Grinder need to be induction and not brush types in my world - at such baring the occasional replacement of bearings there almost immortal, and larger than needed ?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

jimbojohn55 said:


> Grinder need to be induction and not brush types in my world - at such baring the occasional replacement of bearings there almost immortal, and larger than needed


Why not a triple expansion engine?


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Quality v £'s is a hard one, for some £2500 gives enough marginal gains , for others it doesn't . Some will just want whatever is new and the most expensive , that's life and that's hobbies, ot just with coffee .
> 
> I'd be lying is i said I wouldnt have a flat burr , true single doser, that fits under my cabinet in the kitchen for £600. I wouldn't be alone in this though  .


 Sound like you need to make a 'Nosher' ex commercial 83mm at an angle - I might just start a new project based on a Royal I have haha - the 'Royal Nosher' project is born


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

jimbojohn55 said:


> Grinder need to be induction and not brush types in my world - at such baring the occasional replacement of bearings there almost immortal, and larger than needed ?


 I have only just realised I am not immortal ??.. My bearing are certainly on the way out .. So for me projects might include a much longer handle or motor and pulley system ?.. I agree induction motors so much calmer and kinder to neighbours ..


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

ashcroc said:


> Why not a triple expansion engine?


 Now your talking steam powered domestic grinder, going to need a bigger extractor in the kitchen


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jimbojohn55 said:


> Sound like you need to make a 'Nosher' ex commercial 83mm at an angle - I might just start a new project based on a Royal I have haha - the 'Royal Nosher' project is born


 So a mythos ?


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> So a mythos ?


 Ive got one of those in the bunker as well ready for domesticating - but I think going 83 flat is the way to go for this one


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jimbojohn55 said:


> Ive got one of those in the bunker as well ready for domesticating - but I think going 83 flat is the way to go for this one


 Stripping down a mythos to the inners, a makking it safe, smaller, some single dose hopper with a puffer.

Leave it as a frankenstein look.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

jimbojohn55 said:


> Now your talking steam powered domestic grinder, going to need a bigger extractor in the kitchen


Only if you go with the traditional fire method of heating the water. No reason why electric elements wouldn't work.

Another option would be utilising the steam wand from your espresso machine to drive it. Not sure it'd have the required power though.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Stripping down a mythos to the inners, a makking it safe, smaller, some single dose hopper with a puffer.
> 
> Leave it as a frankenstein look.


 I had a walnut and aluminium look in my head but I could paint it green ?


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

bigger motor...  would Rover V8 do?!


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hasi said:


> bigger motor...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 The 'Rover Grinder' might end up with the RSPCA being called ?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Hasi said:


> bigger motor...  would Rover V8 do?!


Not reliable enough!


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

jimbojohn55 said:


> Sound like you need to make a 'Nosher' ex commercial 83mm at an angle - I might just start a new project based on a Royal I have haha - the 'Royal Nosher' project is born


 Are you going for crowd funding ?


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Now that's a grinder motor ? 900rpm and 83 flat


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Not reliable enough!


are you davekidding me?!
that piece of aluminium is the most reliable thing that's ever been thrown at a Rover!


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

Hasi said:


> are you davekidding me?!
> that piece of aluminium is the most reliable thing that's ever been thrown at a Rover!


 High maintenance , especially if neglected ?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Hasi said:


> are you davekidding me?!
> that piece of aluminium is the most reliable thing that's ever been thrown at a Rover!


So long as it doesn't go near the M25!


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> So long as it doesn't go near the M25!


DaveC wouldn't want to review it anyways


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## PaulL (May 5, 2014)

Why does everyone assume that those motors are better and make the other grinders superior or that the Niche has a stanrdard cheap Chinese motor. I got the impression that a lot of thought went into it and used Martin N's skills with planetary gearbox for torque, I suspect there is a lot more too it than these last few posts suggest. But I doubt we will know, I mean do the commercial companies duly divulge their designs, component choices and epxloded diagrams, I will be surprised if they do. More likely is they (quire rightly) keep it all tight to their chests for competitive reasons. Maybe I'm wrong.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

PaulL said:


> Why does everyone assume that those motors are better and make the other grinders superior or that the Niche has a stanrdard cheap Chinese motor. I got the impression that a lot of thought went into it and used Martin N's skills with planetary gearbox for torque, I suspect there is a lot more too it than these last few posts suggest. But I doubt we will know, I mean do the commercial companies duly divulge their designs, component choices and epxloded diagrams, I will be surprised if they do. More likely is they (quire rightly) keep it all tight to their chests for competitive reasons. Maybe I'm wrong.


Think DaveC hinted towards it a while ago. What's better? A motor that's cheap to replace or one that's three times the price but only lasts twice as long?


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

PaulL said:


> Why does everyone assume that those motors are better and make the other grinders superior or that the Niche has a stanrdard cheap Chinese motor. I got the impression that a lot of thought went into it and used Martin N's skills with planetary gearbox for torque, I suspect there is a lot more too it than these last few posts suggest. But I doubt we will know, I mean do the commercial companies duly divulge their designs, component choices and epxloded diagrams, I will be surprised if they do. More likely is they (quire rightly) keep it all tight to their chests for competitive reasons. Maybe I'm wrong.


with every spare parts list comes an exploded drawing, otherwise you couldn't locate a part.

As long as there are no retailers/repair shops that are being contracted to sell and service a grinder, this information will not become public knowledge in the first place.

There's been documentation of disassembling a Niche, as outlined above. But that's about it for now.

PS: development of a new product takes at least 6 to 12 months, even if you're doing nothing new really. This is down to CAD, CAM and tooling. This fact will always give an originator the edge over everybody else.


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## RobbieTheTruth (Jun 4, 2019)

PPapa said:


> Here's one with the shorty:


 Can I ask where you got those test tubes and holder?


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

RobbieTheTruth said:


> Can I ask where you got those test tubes and holder?


They were custom made by@xpresso.


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## RobbieTheTruth (Jun 4, 2019)

PPapa said:


> They were custom made by@xpresso.


 They are great! I'm looking for something similar but they look expensive. Would you mind PMing me an idea of cost (unless it's sensitive info?)


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> It's odd isn't it grinders based on ex commercial ones I suspect have a significantly smaller home market than the Niche and yet has more competition ( if money is no object ) and from people who are happy just to get the stuff that comes up second hand .
> 
> The aspiration grinder keeps getting more and more expensive from when I had an EK , and i would never have paid RRP for the one i had.


 Or hunt out a bargain. Mazzer ZM, which to be honest pisses all over the niche ( it's a bit bigger) and didn't cost much more!

watch out for the NOSHIT grinder coming soon.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Or hunt out a bargain. Mazzer ZM, which to be honest pisses all over the niche ( it's a bit bigger) and didn't cost much more!
> 
> watch out for the NOSHIT grinder coming soon.


 We don't all have your bargain hunting skills, luck, connections or counter space.

I would expect £2500 rrp grinder to piss all over a £500 one, in the same way id expect a niche to piss all over a MC2.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Again just saying what I paid, rrp doesn't come into that, but keep being defensive it's ok


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Again just saying what I paid, rrp doesn't come into that, but keep being defensive it's ok


 It a £2500 grinder you would expect the internals , burrs , and all that to cost more than a £500 , if you got it for £500 good for you, but it still makes it a £2500 grinder with the same bit in it.

Defensive moi  , I know there are grinders that would give me tastier espresso , happy to admit it, not trying to say that there arent.

You have the knack for getting these bargains really cheap, but there are not a flood of em floating around for everyone that wants one .

Again I don't think the Niche is the best grinder ever, it just fits my needs and my wallet, if someone wants to pull apart a mythos , make it fit under my counter and sells it to me for £600 , or find an eg1 in the bin behind the co op and is feeling generous ,please pm me, but it aint gonna happen no matter how many of my rotten teeth i put under the pillow .


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> if someone wants to pull apart a mythos , make it fit under my counter and sells it to me for﻿ £600


 Watch this space defensive one


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Watch this space defensive one


 I hope you make it work.

Or have you found the Eg1 by the CO OP


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> I hope you make it work.
> 
> Or have you found the Eg1 by the CO OP


 Not the co-op


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Not the co-op


 Spa?


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## Saltydog (Jan 27, 2019)

coffeechap said:


> watch out for the NOSHIT grinder coming soon.


 Ohh sounds interesting ?

loving the name very earthy ?


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Saltydog said:


> Ohh sounds interesting
> loving the name very earthy


thanks


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## PaulL (May 5, 2014)

Boots beat me to it.

Mazzer ZM at £2,500, 35kg weight and dimensions of 64cm high and 43cm deep. "Pisses all over" and "a bit bigger..."

I guess it's a waste of time posting to be honest with what seems to be for some reason a persistent campaign. I'm out.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

had to re-post, sorry!


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

it also has its place in a professional environment, but as you say@PPapa you need to know what to expect beforehand.

We use it for cuppings as it produces zero waste, especially compared to a MK Vario Home that I've seen in use at many cuppings before (purging half a dose in between beans just makes me sick).

As well, I'm very happy to pair it with my old LaPav aka. LaDiva on a daily basis to eliminate one variable (over an on-demand grinder): 100% consistent dosing.

But it has its limits and nobody knows how the company will address future issues once spares and repairs are needed in some years time.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

Hasi said:


> it also has its place in a professional environment, but as you say@PPapa you need to know what to expect beforehand.
> 
> We use it for cuppings as it produces zero waste, especially compared to a MK Vario Home that I've seen in use at many cuppings before (purging half a dose in between beans just makes me sick).
> 
> ...


 What do you use the ZM for ? Is it for pre ground for customers .. It looks mighty and impressive . Do you ever use it for your own coffee making ?


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Hasi said:


> had to re-post, sorry!


 There you go, showing off your big grinder again ??

Just an observation . . . I wonder . . . Would all the argument/discussion etc around the Niche have had the same direction if, when someone says 'suggest me a grinder' the Niche wasn't mentioned Every Single Time. It must make people new to coffee at the next level think there is only one grinder. Single dosing isn't for everyone and the few grams retained (or whatever the 'in' word is these days) may add up over the years but who cares. It's less that the toilet paper we flush down the loo (I am not being ironic, facetious or anything). Grinders we were all pretty satisfied with in the early days. Getting into espresso (if you want what is termed the 'shiny machine' needn't be wildly expensive and if it's early days then gaining experience of and taste for coffee with a £300 grinder and possibly a s/h machine makes it more affordable.

Oh and while we talk about longevity of machines, yes of course they should be built to last but let's face it many of us here don't keep the same grinder for 10 years. They should last that long (and far longer) but I, for one, haven't ever bought a grinder in the past that I thought 'I'm keeping this until I'm 100'. And the reason I mention this is because imo the N is overpriced. There are cheaper grinder so what exactly makes the N more expensive? Not the motor, not the burrs . . . The design obviously took a lot of time, the machining for the case etc but couldn't the same be said for the Mignon etc.

I do like a good ramble. It is calming my blood pressure right down after it hit an all time high a bit after 7pm last night!

I am thinking about changing my avatar to Ajohn . . .


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Nicknak said:


> It looks﻿ mighty a﻿nd impressi﻿ve


 Are you trying to say BIG ?


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

MildredM said:


> Are you trying to say BIG ?


 ? Not really , it is bigger than some ,smaller than others . I could fit one in ?. I saw it at the lever day .. But I'm quite tall , but not as tall as some .


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Nicknak said:


> Not really , it is bigger than some ,smaller than others . I could fit one in . I saw it at the lever day .. But I'm quite tall , but not as tall as some .


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

PaulL said:


> Boots beat me to it.
> 
> Mazzer ZM at £2,500, 35kg weight and dimensions of 64cm high and 43cm deep. "Pisses all over" and "a bit bigger..."
> 
> I guess it's a waste of time posting to be honest with what seems to be for some reason a persistent campaign. I'm out.


 its a lot bigger and a lot heavier and a lot more expensive ( however I really wish folk would get off the rep bandwagon as that is not what my ZM cost point blank) and yes IMHO it does do a much better job in the cup that's the niche. Oh and it is near zero retention.

while I am at it, I believe this is also my thread so I should be able to comment on it as much as I like.


----------



## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

Hasi said:


>


 Now @Hasi is short , well just short .. and he has had a shave .


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Hasi said:


>


 I hope you are paying the child labour well?


----------



## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Nicknak said:


> What do you use the ZM for ? Is it for pre ground for customers .. It looks mighty and impressive . Do you ever use it for your own coffee making ?


a. single dosing for walk-in customers who want to try a certain coffee
b. my at-work coffees during roasting
c. preground
d. (future) coffee shop secondary grinder, again for single dosing specialities

but I should play more with it, I have to admit


----------



## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> I hope you are paying the child labour well?


dude roasted and ground and bagged* the birthday present for his mother all by himself. So, no he didn't receive a penny he's just been allowed in to use my equipment.

*after custom painting


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> its a lot bigger and a lot heavier and a lot more expensive ( however I really wish folk would get off the rep bandwagon as that is not what my ZM cost point blank) and yes IMHO it does do a much better job in the cup that's the niche. Oh and it is near zero retention.
> 
> while I am at it, I believe this is also my thread so I should be able to comment on it as much as I like.


 I'd love to get a ZM for the price of a Niche! I'm sure I'm not the only one but if one ever comes up please let me know!!!!


----------



## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

Jon_Foster said:


> I'd love to get a ZM for the price of a Niche! I'm sure I'm not the only one but if one ever comes up please let me know!!!!


 I would pay a bit more ?


----------



## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

So is there a league table (ignoring cost) of grinders based purely on taste performance (and I appreciate its not that easy but allowing for preferences it must be possible to give a good indication)? Its suggested above that the Niche is overpriced, so what is a direct competitor (same performance, ignoring retention etc. for less cost)? If taste is all that matters, you have your list there. If there are other considerations its just a case of doing some research and ruling things in/out or weighting what matters most. An easy one is size, not everyone has the space for a big commercial style grinder, but things like retention are a bit more subjective, and styling is completely subjective.


----------



## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

pgarrish said:


> So is there a league table (ignoring cost) of grinders based purely on taste performance (and I appreciate its not that easy but allowing for preferences it must be possible to give a good indication)? Its suggested above that the Niche is overpriced, so what is a direct competitor (same performance, ignoring retention etc. for less cost)? If taste is all that matters, you have your list there. If there are other considerations its just a case of doing some research and ruling things in/out or weighting what matters most. An easy one is size, not everyone has the space for a big commercial style grinder, but things like retention are a bit more subjective, and styling is completely subjective.


 I like the idea of such a table and I doubt it's out there yet.

Should be filled with data from a representative survey, though, rather than coming from one individual.
Will anyone lean towards setting up a study... please!!

PS: the Niche is a well-thought-out blend of quality (eg. burrs) and budget (eg. motor) components. I doubt you can compare it side-by-side to anything that's out there, yet.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

PPapa said:


> It's just frustrating to see very capable machines paired with a grinder that won't get the best out of the machine. Sure, if all one cares is engineering part and shiny chrome, let it be... but there's a lot of misinformation here.
> 
> Unfortunately, the rule that one should spend for the grinder just as much as the cost of the machine still cannot be worked around with Niche.
> 
> ...


 What is subpar for you isn't sub par for lots of other people.

There are many grinders more expensive and better in the cup than a niche, but tbh those marginal gains aren't for everyone.

I'm not trying to simply say the gear I have is the Best, it isn't, for me it's what I have room for. For others it's what there wallet can afford.

For those people that don't like the niche or it wasn't for them, I am not labelling this at you per se, it feels like sometimes these threads beocke aimed at taking away the pleasure people get from a simple piece of home kit. It's opening up the making of good coffee to people who don't want a coffee shop in their house and either would have had a grinder not as good or just not bothered. and as such it should be applauded.

If more people enjoy good coffee, poor farmers might get more money instead of equipment makers.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

pgarrish said:


> So is there a league table (ignoring cost) of grinders based purely on taste performance (and I appreciate its not that easy but allowing for preferences it must be possible to give a good indication)? Its suggested above that the Niche is overpriced, so what is a direct competitor (same performance, ignoring retention etc. for less cost)? If taste is all that matters, you have your list there. If there are other considerations its just a case of doing some research and ruling things in/out or weighting what matters most. An easy one is size, not everyone has the space for a big commercial style grinder, but things like retention are a bit more subjective, and styling is completely subjective.


 Who or what is taste performance, how do you marry that against the additional pounds x costs versus y.

You would need alot of blind taste testing by the same People over a lots of data.


----------



## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Who or what is taste performance, how do you marry that against the additional pounds x costs versus y.
> 
> You would need alot of blind taste testing by the same People over a lots of data.


 I don't know, but there are plenty of comments referring to grinder A being better than grinder B 'in the cup' which I would take to mean 'tastes better'.

I wont ever be in the market for a new uber grinder, I'm tempted by a Niche as a more-adjustable replacement for my Santos at an amount I could stomach. All the commercial grinders that are recommended as great used bargains seem to be (varying degrees of) fiddly to single dose, needing mods, puffers etc as it wasn't the way they were designed to be used.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

pgarrish said:


> I don't know, but there are plenty of comments referring to grinder A being better than grinder B 'in the cup' which I would take to mean 'tastes better'.
> 
> I wont ever be in the market for a new uber grinder, I'm tempted by a Niche as a more-adjustable replacement for my Santos at an amount I could stomach. All the commercial grinders that are recommended as great used bargains seem to be (varying degrees of) fiddly to single dose, needing mods, puffers etc as it wasn't the way they were designed to be used.


 Better in the cup for who and how are the shots made, are they tasted side by side, each dialled into their sweet spot.

Sure ask opinions, take em all with a pinch of salt (mine especially ),


----------



## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

There's lots of truth in all of the above.
It boils down to the following:

there's different subjective approaches to what represents a good grinder. Is it ease of use, retention, speed, evenness, price, size, looks, noise level, parts availability, longevity, cup quality (sub: for cuppings, brewed, espresso, etc. and in there what should be amplified? Clarity, body, brightness...), and what not?

So, any study design no matter how large and well-thought-out will raise eyebrows of some who have their priorities elsewhere.

Like talking about cars, or buying one - some go by the stats, some by comfort, looks, practicality, brand, service intervals, you name it. In ten people you'll have nine disagree with your choice due to their reasoning.

Think it's super hard to agree even on a bottom line 
Just sayin...


----------



## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> If more people enjoy good coffee, poor farmers might get more money instead of equipment makers.


that...


----------



## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

Hasi said:


> If more people enjoy good coffee, poor farmers might get more money instead of equipment makers.
> 
> that...


 That's the important bit, really. Its like the Hifi forums - all this talk about kit when for the price of a set of cables, you could buy hours more music, which is surely the point.... I shall go away and bask in the superiority of having bought 'adequate' equipment to leave myself more money for coffee (and cake!)


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

pgarrish said:


> That's the important bit, really. Its like the Hifi forums - all this talk about kit when for the price of a set of cables, you could buy hours more music, which is surely the point.... I shall go away and bask in the superiority of having bought 'adequate' equipment to leave myself more money for coffee (and cake!)


Same here. I can make perfectly acceptable coffe with the equipment I have while being better than what it replaced. 
Other than getting a lever at some point (happy to admit that's more for play than any improvement in the cup), I'm only really looking out for a hausgrind at bargain prices to replace the MDF for syphon & coldbrew duties (so I can make coffee during a power cut!).


----------



## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

RobbieTheTruth said:


> They are great! I'm looking for something similar but they look expensive. Would you mind PMing me an idea of cost (unless it's sensitive info?)


 They were a one off which as such I could not associate a price and allowed PP to compensate via an offer he considered the worth to him.

Being retired it was more of a challenge to satisfy PP's circumstances than a money making exercise, they were made of European Oak, an additional stand provided the option of using them in either a horizontal plane sat on the work surface or a space saving vertical plane.

Jon.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Sure ask opinions, take em all with a pinch of salt (mine especially ),


 No need to be so honest and frank bootsy


----------



## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

PPapa said:


> It's just frustrating to see very capable machines paired with a grinder that won't get the best out of the machine. Sure, if all one cares is engineering part and shiny chrome, let it be... but there's a lot of misinformation here.
> 
> Unfortunately, the rule that one should spend for the grinder just as much as the cost of the machine still cannot be worked around with Niche.
> 
> ...


 Out of curiosity, have I not seen videos of "Mr. Londinium" (Reiss) happily using a Niche with his LR? Is that not a good indicator that the Niche plays well with the Londinium?


----------



## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Slowpress said:


> Out of curiosity, have I not seen videos of "Mr. Londinium" (Reiss) happily using a Niche with his LR? Is that not a good indicator that the Niche plays well with the Londinium?


He might have used one, but I believe he has Ek43s and Flat Max now.

He also said...


> not all will agree, but for my money conical burrs are dead now that we have a lot of investment being put into highly aligned flat burrs; the world is moving toward lighter roasts, even in italy. if your budget allows a massive flat burr is the gold standard.


https://londiniumespresso.com/extraction-questions/1290-grinders?start=0


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Slowpress said:


> Out of curiosity, have I not seen videos of "Mr. Londinium" (Reiss) happily using a Niche with his LR? Is that not a good indicator that the Niche plays well with the Londinium?


 I don't believe he had one, for some reason


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## Endless River (Nov 12, 2014)

I don't get it man. Maybe someone can explain it to me as I do not read many things on here. I was going to get me a Niche, once me funds were in place because it seemed to be well thought of. I only use a moka pot and a boilbrew and do not have a grinder as me local cafe just grinds for me whenever I ask. But, there seems to be a lot of negative vibes now on the Niche. Am I right in thinking that these come from folks who do not own one. I do not follow why anyone would try to put a small kitchen grinder up against a big cafe type thing or does me inexperience show. I am still about 2 months away from having enough money to buy something. Can someone put me mind at rest


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

Maybe it's that curious British trait of beating down the successful guy?


----------



## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

don't believe so.
There's been a whole lot of praise already, which led some people to take a closer look at the product as well as what had been said about it.
Take the two extremes and find your own truth somewhere in between - isn't that what an internet forum is for?


----------



## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

I don't see any negative vibes, it's all peace, love, fluffy cats, dogs and guinee pigs in CFUK with GOT avatar meme at the moment. I have a Niche, and for the kitchen it does what i need - well. If you don't like it, second hand (not common but do appear on ebay) they are keeping their value.?


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

Hasi said:


> don't believe so.
> There's been a whole lot of praise already, which led some people to take a closer look at the product as well as what had been said about it.
> Take the two extremes and find your own truth somewhere in between - isn't that what an internet forum is for?


 Amateur - internet forums are for spreading lies, trolling and ignoring everything you don't like until you occupy a tiny, self-contained little bubble with like-minded folk who won't tax your brain with anything that might upset you.... oops 

More importantly, please go back to different avatars, I'm getting confused who's who now


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

pgarrish said:


> Amateur - internet forums are for spreading lies, trolling and ignoring everything you don't like until you occupy a tiny, self-contained little bubble with like-minded folk who won't tax your brain with anything that might upset you.... oops
> 
> More importantly, please go back to different avatars, I'm getting confused who's who now


It's almost as confusing as people with no avatar!


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

ashcroc said:


> It's almost as confusing as people with no avatar!


 Who are you ?


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Nicknak said:


> Who are you ?


I'm@dfk41 like everyone else!


----------



## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

ashcroc said:


> I'm@dfk41 like everyone else!


 I thought so .. getting a bit lippy recently ??? . Haven't used your favourite expletive recently ?..


----------



## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> It's almost as confusing as people with no avatar!


 I've fixed mine, your turn now !


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

Endless River said:


> I don't get it man. Maybe someone can explain it to me as I do not read many things on here. I was going to get me a Niche, once me funds were in place because it seemed to be well thought of. I only use a moka pot and a boilbrew and do not have a grinder as me local cafe just grinds for me whenever I ask. But, there seems to be a lot of negative vibes now on the Niche. Am I right in thinking that these come from folks who do not own one. I do not follow why anyone would try to put a small kitchen grinder up against a big cafe type thing or does me inexperience show. I am still about 2 months away from having enough money to buy something. Can someone put me mind at rest


 Most of what has been written in the last spate has been a bit of fun ,with a few barbs attached . A few concerns of its longevity .. I'm am sure it will be fine for you .. But as with all purchases do your research and make your own mind up ..


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Endless River said:


> I don't get it man. Maybe someone can explain it to me as I do not read many things on here. I was going to get me a Niche, once me funds were in place because it seemed to be well thought of. I only use a moka pot and a boilbrew and do not have a grinder as me local cafe just grinds for me whenever I ask. But, there seems to be a lot of negative vibes now on the Niche. Am I right in thinking that these come from folks who do not own one. I do not follow why anyone would try to put a small kitchen grinder up against a big cafe type thing or does me inexperience show. I am still about 2 months away from having enough money to buy something. Can someone put me mind at rest


 If you're planning to just use it with a moka pot and boilbrew, then you may have more other options. Part of what makes the Niche special, imo, is that it's able to single dose and cover both *espresso *and filter coffee to a good level. There are a few grinders around which might be cheaper that can grind to filter level, but generally not necessarily single dosing. Espresso is harder to get right and this is part of where it's shines for the price you pay for a new grinder (freakishly cheap used grinder options not included in this statement).

Depending on where you are located you might be able to see (which I suppose should be taste!) one in action as there are a lot currently being used by forum members.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

pgarrish said:


> Amateur - internet forums are for spreading lies, trolling and ignoring everything you don't like until you occupy a tiny, self-contained little bubble with like-minded folk who won't tax your brain with anything that might upset you.... oops
> 
> More importantly, please go back to different avatars, I'm getting confused who's who now


 stop throwing stones in our glass house, will ya?

Re avatars, can I borrow yours then?


----------



## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

Hasi said:


> stop throwing stones in our glass house, will ya?
> 
> Re avatars, can I borrow yours then?


 of course!


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Hasi said:


> stop throwing stones in our glass house, will ya?
> 
> Re avatars, can I borrow yours then?


 Suggestions for a @Hasi avatar ... Hasi at toonpool.com


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

reminds me of this










from discussions of a coffee grinder to a childrens book about an animated rabbit.... thread derail skill level: NINJA !


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

Endless River said:


> I don't get it man. Maybe someone can explain it to me as I do not read many things on here. I was going to get me a Niche, once me funds were in place because it seemed to be well thought of. I only use a moka pot and a boilbrew and do not have a grinder as me local cafe just grinds for me whenever I ask. But, there seems to be a lot of negative vibes now on the Niche. Am I right in thinking that these come from folks who do not own one. I do not follow why anyone would try to put a small kitchen grinder up against a big cafe type thing or does me inexperience show. I am still about 2 months away from having enough money to buy something. Can someone put me mind at rest


 I've got a Niche that I use with a Gaggia Classic/V60.

Of course there are better grinders out there but for me going from a cheapo grinder to a Niche was a HUGE change.

One day I'd love to have a lever machine and a large flat burr grinder but I'm just starting up on my journey to coffee nirvana and the set up I have now gives me much better coffee than 99% of coffee shops.

I'm very happy with it ? (although I will take a £500 ZM when you can source me one @coffeechap) ?


----------



## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

pgarrish said:


> from a coffee grinder to a childrens book about an animated rabbit.... thread derail skill level: NINJA !


 Every serious thread needs fluffy bunny review and endorsement. Otherwise the grumpy cats take over...?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Agentb said:


> Every serious thread needs fluffy bunny review and endorsement. Otherwise the grumpy cats take over...?


 Who me?


----------



## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

coffeechap said:


> Who me?
> 
> View attachment 31036


 who you?


----------



## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> Who me?
> 
> View attachment 31036


 That is the cat face when you discover the new flat burr grinder was a fraction too big for the kitchen...


----------



## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

Endless River said:


> I don't get it man. Maybe someone can explain it to me as I do not read many things on here. I was going to get me a Niche, once me funds were in place because it seemed to be well thought of. I only use a moka pot and a boilbrew and do not have a grinder as me local cafe just grinds for me whenever I ask. But, there seems to be a lot of negative vibes now on the Niche. Am I right in thinking that these come from folks who do not own one. I do not follow why anyone would try to put a small kitchen grinder up against a big cafe type thing or does me inexperience show. I am still about 2 months away from having enough money to buy something. Can someone put me mind at rest


 The Niche works really well for my espresso (even though these negative comments are now kinda making me feel I should have held off on buying it?). I will add that you could buy a much cheaper Sage "Pro" series grinder, and it will handle moka pot brewing very, very nicely (much less expensive & often really good sale prices on the Dose Control Pro). (Sage is a noisier grinder, if that is a factor.)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Slowpress said:


> The Niche works really well for my espresso (even though these negative comments are now kinda making me feel I should have held off on buying it?). I will add that you could buy a much cheaper Sage "Pro" series grinder, and it will handle moka pot brewing very, very nicely (much less expensive & often really good sale prices on the Dose Control Pro). (Sage is a noisier grinder, if that is a factor.)


 Guide to coffee happiness

Buy gear> enjoy gear>never read forum again ....

Someone somewhere is always saying they are enjoying their coffee more than you (it may be me )


----------



## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Guide to coffee happiness
> Buy gear> enjoy gear>never read forum again ....
> Someone somewhere is always saying they are enjoying their coffee more than you (it may be me )


Haha!

I've been happy with all my buying decisions so far - which doesn't mean you can't be happier with yet another buying decision 

There's always folk who struggle to fund equipment and those wealthy enough to get it all at once.
Being proud of and excited over a new item is one thing folk keeps posting about. Another is nagging - which, psychologically speaking, may be a coping strategy to excuse themselves for their poor decision making, mentally parting ways with existing stuff, maybe simple envy, regret, annoyance or whatever...

Reviews are a delicate thing that can be misleading in all sorts of directions. Just be careful and build your own opinion on facts that are important and work just for you! If you can, ask someone local to let you have a play on their unit or try out at a store. We also have the right to return things if we don't like them, make use of that and see for yourself!


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

I always end up with two of everything ... at least .. One that is what common sense told me and then the one I really wanted and should have got in the first place ..


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Nicknak said:


> I always end up with two of everything ... at least .. One that is what common sense told me and then the one I really wanted and should have got in the first place ..


 Some people are just plain greedy ?


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Hold on a minute @Nicknak what on Earth have you found to talk about - 1000 posts already ??????


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

MildredM said:


> Some people are just plain greedy ?


 Yes @MildredM some people are , aren't they .. But what is the point if you can't have two of everything that makes you happy ???. The wife draws the line at some things though ?


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

MildredM said:


> Hold on a minute @Nicknak what on Earth have you found to talk about - 1000 posts already ??????


 I found it easy , I just answered a tenth of your posts .??? ..


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Nicknak said:


> I found it easy , I just answered a tenth of your posts .??? ..


 Touché ??


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Nicknak said:


> Yes @MildredM some people are , aren't they .. But what is the point if you can't have two of everything that makes you happy ???. The wife draws the line at some things though ?


 Pity you haven't even actually got your ONE Badge after all that hard work ?


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

MildredM said:


> Pity you haven't even actually got your ONE Badge after all that hard work ?


 I know 2000 seems a lot , that is an awful amount of Niche cups to get the next one ...???..


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Nicknak said:


> I know 2000 seems a lot , that is an awful amount of Niche cups to get the next one .....


At this rate you'll be on 10k by Christmas without having the foggiest idea how you managed it!


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

ashcroc said:


> At this rate you'll be on 10k by Christmas without having the foggiest idea how you managed it!


 The lathe will need new bearings by then ..?


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Nicknak said:


> The lathe will need new bearings by then ..


maybe the bear needs a new lathe half way there


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

Hasi said:


> Nicknak said:
> 
> 
> > The lathe will need new bearings by then ..
> ...


 It is on the list ?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Oi stop spoiling my thread


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> Oi stop spoiling my thread


 Stop being grumpy ?


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

coffeechap said:


> Oi stop spoiling my thread


 The Niche is such a pretty little thing with all the wooden bits


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> Oi stop spoiling my thread


has anybody else noticed a raising antitude? 

As in antipasti... now dude wants oil on his bread. Give him something to eat@haventadog


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hasi said:


> Haha!
> 
> I've been happy with all my buying decisions so far - which doesn't mean you can't be happier with yet another buying decision
> 
> ...


 This is at the centre of it for me - well said


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

What is amusing is that the first post of this thread seems to have gone by the wayside, with the bickering back and forth, people getting uptight about their kit!

enjoy your equipment, I have said this before, the only person who matters In this coffee endeavour is you, if you are happy stick if not twist.


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## GrowlingDog (Apr 10, 2016)

I might as well join in.

My observations are.

I put beans in grinder

Niche grinds them

I put coffee in basket, insert into coffee machine.

I make Espresso

I enjoy Espresso

I smile









I'm not spending any more money.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

GrowlingDog said:


> I'm not spending any more money.


 Oh no, how are you going to buy beans


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## GrowlingDog (Apr 10, 2016)

coffeechap said:


> Oh no, how are you going to buy beans


Oh no.

Hadn't thought of that.

Anyone got any free beans


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

GrowlingDog said:


> I might as well join in.
> 
> My observations are.
> 
> ...


 Man on forum claims to have 'reached the end' of his equipment journey..... ??????


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

pgarrish said:


> Man on forum claims to have 'reached the end' of his equipment journey..... ??????


 must've been his last words on here then...


----------



## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

Hasi said:


> must've been his last words on here then...


 Definitely and just after he peaked with his equipment as well.. ?.

Jon.


----------



## GrowlingDog (Apr 10, 2016)

xpresso said:


> Definitely and just after he peaked with his equipment as well.. ?.
> 
> Jon.


 A day has passed by, A man can change his mind.

My brand new Gaggia classic is now back at Gaggia, it's a simple problem, it should be anyway, but they are not making my life easy and I may well not be continuing on the Gaggia journey as a result. That would mean I need a new coffee machine again.


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

?


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

Hasi said:


> must've been his last words on here then...


 A very hard decision .... ?.

Jon.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

xpresso said:


> A very hard decision .... ?.
> 
> Jon.


 he back!


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Hasi said:


> must've been his last words on here then...


 Nope!


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

GrowlingDog said:


> A day has passed by, A man can change his mind.
> 
> My brand new Gaggia classic is now back at Gaggia, it's a simple problem, it should be anyway, but they are not making my life easy and I may well not be continuing on the Gaggia journey as a result. That would mean I need a new coffee machine again.


 Stick with the La Pav, or you may end up with a KVdW.. erm. how did that happen...There's a nice Sage Barista Express up for grabs in the sale section, it went nice with my Niche to single dose as well as having an espresso blend in the hopper.


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## Rtansley (Aug 30, 2016)

Thinking of replacing my HG1 with a Niche, after a couple years of ownership it would be nice to not have the workout of grinding every morning. I'm unsure if it'll be a step down in quality though. Anyone got any thoughts on this?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rtansley said:


> Thinking of replacing my HG1 with a Niche, after a couple years of ownership it would be nice to not have the workout of grinding every morning. I'm unsure if it'll be a step down in quality though. Anyone got any thoughts on this?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


 The burrs on the HG are 83mm from memory, whereas the Niche are 63mm. There is bound to be a difference in taste because of that, but only. you can say if the Niche taste is equal to or more or less acceptable than the HG. A lot less faff and effort for sure. I have had a couple of HG Ones and never kept them long! I have a Niche and a Clima Pro. The pro is easier to use but with darker beans the Niche tastes slightly better, but hey ho.....bottom line is do not believe what people tell you and go try for yourself!


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Isn't there a motor mod for the HG1?


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## truegrace (Jan 29, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> The burrs on the HG are 83mm from memory, whereas the Niche are 63mm. There is bound to be a difference in taste because of that, but only. you can say if the Niche taste is equal to or more or less acceptable than the HG. A lot less faff and effort for sure. I have had a couple of HG Ones and never kept them long! I have a Niche and a Clima Pro. The pro is easier to use but with darker beans the Niche tastes slightly better, but hey ho.....bottom line is do not believe what people tell you and go try for yourself!


 Just need to convince the better half that a niche would be better in the kitchen than my SJ and will invest. Ideally this side of Xmas would be nice!


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## Rtansley (Aug 30, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> The burrs on the HG are 83mm from memory, whereas the Niche are 63mm. There is bound to be a difference in taste because of that, but only. you can say if the Niche taste is equal to or more or less acceptable than the HG. A lot less faff and effort for sure. I have had a couple of HG Ones and never kept them long! I have a Niche and a Clima Pro. The pro is easier to use but with darker beans the Niche tastes slightly better, but hey ho.....bottom line is do not believe what people tell you and go try for yourself!


Thanks for your input. Not sure what it is about the HG1 but I always seemed to suffer with a fair bit of channelling. Totally put me off bottomless PFs.

I'll more than likely order a Niche and compare the two. Minimal retention and single dosing is what I'm after, options like the monolith are too far out of the budget. It would be nice to compare a grinder with flat burrs. But I'm not sure there's much out there that can be single dosed 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

Yes there is a motor upgrade. Looks pretty good. I have both and the Niche holds up pretty well against the HG1. However having said that I normally use the HG1 when just making coffee for me and only use the Niche if I have visitors and need to make a few together


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## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

I find a few drops of water on the beans before grinding and a stir with a three pronged distribution tool after normally gives good pours


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## Rtansley (Aug 30, 2016)

Jollybean said:


> I find a few drops of water on the beans before grinding and a stir with a three pronged distribution tool after normally gives good pours


This is something I do each time. Spray and use a cocktail stick to get rid of any clumps. I could take more care using the Push tamper. I tend to keep it the same depth, and up the dose if the quantity is lower. That could be the issue.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am sure others have mentioned the channelling problem before. I think you have to reach a stage, where the kit in a domestic environment is hard to justify. others will be quick to point the finger at me as someone who up until fairly recently, had had everything going, but with one difference. I rarely bought anything in the belief it was the best thing going. I bought it (if secondhand for a good price) because I wanted to try it out. If I bought at a grand and lost £200 I just mentally said I have rented it at £50 per moth for 4 months. This allowed me to look at things for what they are. I stopped doing this some time ago. I had my name down for the second batch of Monoliths but never fulfilled. My tastebuds are average and I simply refuse to believe that many if any, could line up a bunch of shots and say with any confidence what grinder they were produced on. There are simply too many variables involved in the coffee making process. To carry on further, and without knocking anyone who has bought a Monolith or any other top end grinder (your money, you buy what you want! as I did) but for me, I would be unable to tell the difference, or put another way, appreciate the finer differences. A decent single dosing grinder fulfils many tick boxes for the average Joe. After that, if it comes down to taste and that is subjective. I can taste a difference between the same bean through the Niche and Clima Pro but that is certain to be the flat v conical debate. I would love to try a Monolith conical if anyone has one in the Newcastle area, to see what it is all about of course


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## MrOrk (Apr 17, 2018)

Rtansley said:


> Thanks for your input. Not sure what it is about the HG1 but I always seemed to suffer with a fair bit of channelling. Totally put me off bottomless PFs.
> 
> I'll more than likely order a Niche and compare the two. Minimal retention and single dosing is what I'm after, options like the monolith are too far out of the budget. It would be nice to compare a grinder with flat burrs. But I'm not sure there's much out there that can be single dosed
> 
> ...


 Upgraded to a Niche from a SJ last week (took about 7days from purchase to receiving). I use a bottomless PF, with the SJ always had Multiple streams but no spritzing. Now, with the Niche a single stream most times and had to reduce the dose from 19g to 18g as a result. Quick stir in the cup into the pf level, tamp. Lovely simple work flow lovely taste.

note: that's with 18sec PI 9 bar decreasing so quite forgiving I think.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Rtansley said:


> Thinking of replacing my HG1 with a Niche, after a couple years of ownership it would be nice to not have the workout of grinding every morning. I'm unsure if it'll be a step down in quality though. Anyone got any thoughts on this?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


if you can have both at the same time (moneywise) get the Niche and try it out. Worse case scenario you can resell it losing a few quid, just put that down to experience and rental costs as dfk says.

I had a Kinu M68 before. Great grinder, but I much prefer the usability, consistency and ease of use of the Niche.


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## Rtansley (Aug 30, 2016)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> if you can have both at the same time (moneywise) get the Niche and try it out. Worse case scenario you can resell it losing a few quid, just put that down to experience and rental costs as dfk says.
> 
> I had a Kinu M68 before. Great grinder, but I much prefer the usability, consistency and ease of use of the Niche.


That's what I'll do.

I've got a friend with an Atom, he's coming over with it. Will be interesting to taste the difference between conical and flat, if there is any.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rtansley said:


> That's what I'll do.
> 
> I've got a friend with an Atom, he's coming over with it. Will be interesting to taste the difference between conical and flat, if there is any.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


 Trust me.......there is! If you cannot taste the difference, time to sell up and buy Nespresso! Only other consideration is the roast level of beans you prefer. many say a flat is better suited to a lighter roast and a conical to a darker


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## Rtansley (Aug 30, 2016)

I'm a big fan of the medium to dark roast but that could be because they're easier to grind. Not sure the HG1 deals well with lighter roasts. I like a thick mouth feel if that makes sense, I don't know if I read that conicals come out a little more syrupy. Might be making it up.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> Trust me.......there is! If you cannot taste the difference, time to sell up and buy Nespresso! Only other consideration is the roast level of beans you prefer. many say a flat is better suited to a lighter roast and a conical to a darker


 Unfortunately there aren't many flat options that aren't massive or hugely expensive (or both)for single dosing.

How much do you have to purge with the Mythos?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Nopapercup said:


> Unfortunately there aren't many flat options that aren't massive or hugely expensive (or both)for single dosing.
> 
> How much do you have to purge with the Mythos?


 Nothing.....the retention is minuscule because even though flat burred, they lie at a 45 degree angle therefore they can give both a slow spin with the only place the coffee to go is downwards and out of the chute. I drink mainly milk based and never purge unless changing beans


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> Nothing.....the retention is minuscule because even though flat burred, they lie at a 45 degree angle therefore they can give both a slow spin with the only place the coffee to go is downwards and out of the chute. I drink mainly milk based and never purge unless changing beans


 That's good to know as I've been thinking for a while about getting a Mythos or an EK. I have a Cimbali Magnum but it's been collecting dust since the Niche came out as the Niche is so easy to use and the Magnum is a faff. Our current kitchen is limited so the Pavoni/Niche combo are great but I would like in the future to get a good flat grinder and try another coffee machine like a Vesuvius or Londinium.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

ashcroc said:


> Isn't there a motor mod for the HG1?


 There are a couple, I have the WUG motor on an HG1 and it's great, will lunch through anything and consistency improves.


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## Rtansley (Aug 30, 2016)

That's really thrown a spanner in the works! There's a few versions of this now I believe. Where did you purchase yours? I'm more tempted to get this over buying the Niche.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Nopapercup said:


> but I would like in the future to get a good flat grinder and try another coffee machine like a Vesuvius or Londinium.


 Not sure where you're based but if you are near London I use an EK43 with Titus burr carrier with an original plumbed L1 and a Vesuvius at two Farmers Market on Saturday and Sunday. You're welcome to come and have play although towards the end of the Markets would be best - they get busy this time of year! ( A Niche is on decaf duty but you know all about that grinder?)


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## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

Stevebee said:


> Not sure where you're based but if you are near London I use an EK43 with Titus burr carrier with an original plumbed L1 and a Vesuvius at two Farmers Market on Saturday and Sunday. You're welcome to come and have play although towards the end of the Markets would be best - they get busy this time of year! ( A Niche is on decaf duty but you know all about that grinder)


Even without playing with them i would be v interested to taste the results. Which markets and which beans do you opt for?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

Stevebee said:


> Not sure where you're based but if you are near London I use an EK43 with Titus burr carrier with an original plumbed L1 and a Vesuvius at two Farmers Market on Saturday and Sunday. You're welcome to come and have play although towards the end of the Markets would be best - they get busy this time of year! ( A Niche is on decaf duty but you know all about that grinder?)


 Can't remember which markets you do but I'm interested!


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Stevebee said:


> Not sure where you're based but if you are near London I use an EK43 with Titus burr carrier with an original plumbed L1 and a Vesuvius at two Farmers Market on Saturday and Sunday. You're welcome to come and have play although towards the end of the Markets would be best - they get busy this time of year! ( A Niche is on decaf duty but you know all about that grinder?)


 Wow that would be amazing.

I go to London every few months and I'll next be up beginning of Jan. Which markets are you at?


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Every Saturday we're at Barnes Farmers Market (10:00-14:00) SW13 9HG on Sunday at Stroud Green Market (10:00 - 15:00) N4 3HB. At Barnes park in Nassau Road at Stroud just park on street unless Arsenal are playing at home - not that often fortunately ?

As I mentioned probably best in the last hour of the market otherwise you might get roped in serving coffees!


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I use a Niche with my La Pavoni with no problem. For single dosing grinders though, the Versalab is pretty good (and the other one that has recently been shown somewhere on here that looks like one). I took mine to the last Rave lever day and it got some good use down there amongst the La Pavs (although the La Pav portafilter is a bit small for it and had to be dosed into a cup).

Oh, it's both conical and flat.. Just to throw a spanner in the works 









(RAVE Lever day 2019)


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## Rtansley (Aug 30, 2016)

It ticks all the boxes apart from being within budget, that's some serious money. Hard to justify when I drink 2/3 cups a day.

After some research, the WUG isn't compatible with my version of HG-1 which is a real shame.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Rtansley said:


> That's what I'll do.
> 
> I've got a friend with an Atom, he's coming over with it. Will be interesting to taste the difference between conical and flat, if there is any.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


I'm not sure where you live, but I'm happy to show you the Niche if you are near Newbury in Berkshire.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rtansley said:


> It ticks all the boxes apart from being within budget, that's some serious money. Hard to justify when I drink 2/3 cups a day.
> 
> After some research, the WUG isn't compatible with my version of HG-1 which is a real shame.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


 I am sure cc would part ex if you asked him nicely. That said, yours should sell easily enough


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## Rtansley (Aug 30, 2016)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I'm not sure where you live, but I'm happy to show you the Niche if you are near Newbury in Berkshire.


I'm up in North Yorkshire. A tad far, thank you for the offer. I feel like it's time for a change, so unless there's a massive difference between the two and Niche really can't compete then I'll make the swap. So chances are the hg-1 will be in the for sale section shortly.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Stevebee said:


> Every Saturday we're at Barnes Farmers Market (10:00-14:00) SW13 9HG on Sunday at Stroud Green Market (10:00 - 15:00) N4 3HB. At Barnes park in Nassau Road at Stroud just park on street unless Arsenal are playing at home - not that often fortunately ?
> 
> As I mentioned probably best in the last hour of the market otherwise you might get roped in serving coffees!


 I'll stop by Barnes the next Saturday I'm in London


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## NikonGuy (Jul 31, 2014)

Interesting thread!


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## shodjoe1 (Apr 25, 2018)

dfk41 said:


> Trust me.......there is! If you cannot taste the difference, time to sell up and buy Nespresso! Only other consideration is the roast level of beans you prefer. many say a flat is better suited to a lighter roast and a conical to a darker


 so medium roast would be fine?considering niche

cheers


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

shodjoe1 said:


> so medium roast would be fine?considering niche
> 
> cheers


 I drink medium roasts and it's fine (I also do light ones and I don't find it problematic for those either)


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## rburns (May 4, 2021)

Thank you everyone and CoffeeChap! This is my first visit, first post and I read thru the first 8 pages of replies here (plenty to go). Offering free advice?

- I am a rank novice, never even been a diehard coffee drinker (PG Tips). I'm coming from a moka pot to a first espresso machine, Rocket Mozzafiato R, ordered upon recommendation of the local baristas / repair tech. I'm looking forward to balancing the sour > good < bitter. I'm on the Yankee side of the pond in Boulder Colorado.

- Parameters are: always single dosing, mostly bachelor, under £720 / $1k USD, small form factor. I like dark earthy roasts now when they come out smooth, but reckon my preferences will evolve. I experiment with small quantities of different bulk beans from the local markets.

Choices that I see are:

- Niche £500 (no stock)
- HG-1 £700 (?, no stock, wireless, tall for my kitchen cabinets unless the big wheel is removed)
- Pharos £180 (wireless)

The first two are on backorder, so I'll begin with my £100 Capresso. I have a microgram scale in my home enginerding biz workshop, tho that's not near the kitchen. - Ralph


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@rburns Welcome to the forum...there are other threads on the Niche as well, some a little more positive. There is also the Solo Flat burr grinder to consider as well.


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