# Vesuvius for Beginners! (Advice please!!)



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Hi Everyone

It started with a Sage Barista and then I disappeared down the rabbit hole and ended up with a NICHE and a Vesuvius. Both on the strength of @DaveCUK fabulous reviews. And OMG the V is an incredible machine. Trouble is I've slightly over reached myself and there are too many variables.

I'd really appreciate advice on dialing in new beans. I completely get the principles (18 in 36 out etc) but IO seem to be making things worse with each tweak, not better

Thanks in advance

Graham


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

What coffee are you using and what are you doing with it? And what have you done that's made things worse, and in what way are they worse?


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

18/36 is gone on the Vesuvius over 40s is good, what profile are you using and what pump settings, beans grind number. But the Lever profile is good too.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I would imagine it comes with a standard profile. Say some seconds of pre infusion and that's that. I think you would be best to start with that or maybe one of the others it comes with. You need to go through this process before you go DIY to see what machine type emulation does for instance.

 Don't have one but believe it does come with some from comments on the machine.

Profiling though. I've being doing some with my SDB  inspired by a Decent video with long periods of drips etc. You may not like the taste it produces. It will also stress your grinds prep techniques. I am a bit fussy about that. I expect shots to be within a couple of grams with fixed 30 sec shots so had to weigh out for a while.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> It started with a Sage Barista and then I disappeared down the rabbit hole and ended up with a NICHE and a Vesuvius. Both on the strength of @DaveCUK fabulous reviews. And OMG the V is an incredible machine. Trouble is I've slightly over reached myself and there are too many variables.
> 
> ...


 Ignore principles 18 into 36 is just a base as is time

Set up a lever profile with a slow decline , there are some here , along with other user experiences

Dnt be tied down by narrow variables of time , the biggest factor in your extraction is still the dose , weight out and grind you use.


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

So I've been using Chocolate Point Coffee from Black Cat https://www.blackcatcoffee.co.uk/products/chocolate-point-blend?variant=31721482027075

Yes the machine comes with a variety of profiles from lever to E61 and you can make up anything you want really from the pre sets. I'm using a DECENT 18g basket with an ECM distribution tool and DECENT tamper. Dialing in on the NICHE is still problematic.. a coarse grind and the coffee just gushes; tighten up the grind and I end up with channeling. I can't seem to find the sweet spot between theses two extremes. Other than that I 've left the machine on standard setting (92 degrees etc). I always way my dose in and dose out

I'm certain its my technique but where others seem to find the machine forgiving, I'm finding quite the opposite, and the V seems to play by completely different rules to any other machine...

Thanks everyone!

Graham


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

I had 5 profiles all of them Ronsils. And had a Niche 94 for me and change the pump settings all on here or the other forum. What number on Niche are you.


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> So I've been using Chocolate Point Coffee from Black Cat https://www.blackcatcoffee.co.uk/products/chocolate-point-blend?variant=31721482027075
> 
> Yes the machine comes with a variety of profiles from lever to E61 and you can make up anything you want really from the pre sets. I'm using a DECENT 18g basket with an ECM distribution tool and DECENT tamper. Dialing in on the NICHE is still problematic.. a coarse grind and the coffee just gushes; tighten up the grind and I end up with channeling. I can't seem to find the sweet spot between theses two extremes. Other than that I 've left the machine on standard setting (92 degrees etc). I always way my dose in and dose out
> 
> ...


 When you're moving from coarse to finer are you moving in small increments? Like 1 notch at a time? The channelling may also be with your puck prep - when I had a Niche I found that the grinds needed to be stirred quite well before using a distribution tool.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Your distribution tool doesn't distribute, just levels off, so that could be the reason for the channeling.

What kind of profiles are you using and how does the shot taste?

I've not had chocolate point but I'd probably just use a standard profile based on what I've heard.


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Jony said:


> 18/36 is gone on the Vesuvius over 40s is good, what profile are you using and what pump settings, beans grind number. But the Lever profile is good too.


 When you say 18/36 is gone.. I'm confused. Are you saying the ratio of inut is irrelevant? I've not changed the standard pump settings and I've tried a wide range on the NICHE from 20 all the way to 2.. just can't seem to get the right balance


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Jony said:


> I had 5 profiles all of them Ronsils. And had a Niche 94 for me and change the pump settings all on here or the other forum. What number on Niche are you.


 By "94" I assume you mean brew temp? Mine is set at 92 but could always change.. On the Niche I've gone all the way from 20 down to 2.


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## rogher (Nov 22, 2020)

If you want to start with a traditional 18in/36out ratio, I suggest you use a 'flat' 9bar profile and time that.

such things are only guidelines, though, and I use them as a guide to get roughly in the right area.

When you start to use profiles, the duration will increase because (overall) less time is spent at 9bar.


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## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Hi, sorry if below is teaching to suck eggs, but thought a braindump might help. You've made several jumps and can be a bit of a learning curve. Stick with it - it's worth it!

1. I agree with @rogher - you need to establish a baseline. So keep it simple at to start 9bar constantly.

2. Is the niche new? For new grinders you need to season the burrs - a bag of older beans straight through and discard (if done then ignore this step).

3. Dial in - here use fresh beans - a week old roughly. Choose a setting on the niche. Weigh in 18g into niche cup then transplant into portafilter. My setting on niche is about 10 and it's roughly 25-30 seconds to get 35g out. If it goes through too quickly (e.g. 36g in 20 secs then go finer to e.g. 9. Too slow (e.g. > 35 seconds) and increase/coarser e.g. to 11. Repeat until about right (I.e. 36g in 25-30 seconds).

As Beans age, and and are replaced by new the fine/setting will jump about. I find this happens less on the niche compared to my old mazzer super jolly. I used to find I that the first shot of the day on the SJ would always be a gusher - not the case for me with the niche. As the burrs have become more seasoned things seemed to get Stabler. Ironically I'm looking at posher grinders now (large flats to go next to niche), and looks like it gets much harder because less fines and very exact grind particles.

My brew temp is 95 currently (was 93 by default). In theory 90-96 is ideal, with higher temp for lighter roasts.

Wdt - I use a cork with 4 (longest I could find) sewing needles to stir (put into portafilter and twist back and forth and around edges for around 2-3 secs) to break up any clumps etc. I then roughly level - i.e. move higher parts to fill lower areas, then tap side with palm to get roughly level (I don't trust the round paperweight things). Then tap the portafilter on a surface, and it should settle a couple of mm. Then tamp - make sure it's level and give it a little twist to polish the surface. Not particularly skilled, but above process generally works consistently across multiple machines.

Generally I find that weight extracted is more important than time.

A good test in parallel is to run a taste benchmark after dialled in. Once dialled (say 10 for me). Pull one dialled in (e.g. 10), one too fine (e.g. 9), and one too coarse (e.g 11). Taste each one and compare.


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

@danielpugh Thanks very much.. you were absolutely right - I went back to basics, eventually got that right (esp puck prep) and now I'm starting to explore some other profiles. Much appreciated, thanks!


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

@GrahamSPhillips I have not seen this thread before.

I somehow had an easy run from the start. Never encountered any issues pulling a "sweet" shot. As it was mentioned do not pay too much attention to the timing of your shots. Even 50 sec of getting 18-36 (40) would be OK as long as you like the taste of it.

I have my brew temperature at 94. I would think 92 is on the colder side but it might suit your taste. I have no experience with Niche, I am using a bog standard Mythos. Dialing new beans takes me a shot or two.

I made a video with my lever profile and will send you the profile in "bars vs seconds" so you can program it. By far this has been the most satisfactory of the profiles. I am considering reducing slightly the peak point from 11 to 10 bars to see the effect but I am too lazy to make it happen.

Good luck with your great set of machinery 😀


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

@GrahamSPhillips As promised, here is my attempt to time the profile mimicking lever machine. If someone has a better reading I hope they might chime in.

0-10 sec at 2 bars

11-17 sec from 2 to 11 bars

17-20 sec stay at 11 bars

20-25 sec down to 9 bars

25-30 sec down to 8 bars

30-35 sec down to 6 bars

35-40 sec down to 4 bars

40 sec plus down to 2.5 bars

Happy lever brewing 🙂


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

John Yossarian said:


> @GrahamSPhillips As promised, here is my attempt to time the profile mimicking lever machine. If someone has a better reading I hope they might chime in.
> 
> 0-10 sec at 2 bars
> 
> ...


 Thanks so much! Do you have a favourite coffee/type of coffee this works particularly well with?


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Couple of thoughts:

(1) The Vesuvius shower screen sits relatively low into the PF. If you're using a medium/dark roast (more grinds to the gram than a light) you may find that your puck expands into the shower screen and that can cause channeling. Just use one size up in baskets ie 20g basket for an 18g dose - fixes everything.

(2) A while back, I switched programs 2-5 away from actual profiles but to pressures instead ie P2 is 2bar 99s, P3 is 9.5bar 99s, P4 is 7bar 99s, and P5 is 3bar 99s. (P1 is a tapering profile for the family.) This allows me to change the profile on the fly based on what my shot is doing, and how the result tastes.

For example: I might start at 2bar until I see beads under the basket; then drop the lever to pause the pump and allow to 'quasi-bloom', then lift the lever again to re-start the pump and switch to P3; then as the shot pours, I move through P4, 5 and 2 to try to keep a consistent flow by eye. Alternatively I might preinfuse on P2, then pull a flat shot using P3.

I've not returned to programming profiles. I do fettle pump speed every now and then though.


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Obnic said:


> Couple of thoughts:
> 
> (1) The Vesuvius shower screen sits relatively low into the PF. If you're using a medium/dark roast (more grinds to the gram than a light) you may find that your puck expands into the shower screen and that can cause channeling. Just use one size up in baskets ie 20g basket for an 18g dose - fixes everything.
> 
> ...


 Thanks Obnic - will definitely try an 18g dose in a 20g basket... On the quasi bloom that's something I'd love to try- any chance of sharing a video of this? Best!

Graham


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

For those doing the longer pump-profile shots, is it still 18g:36g out or do you pull a greater volume as well as a "longer" (time wise) shot?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@GrahamSPhillips I always stick to the same volume out, especially for the longer shots...otherwise you can get some bitterness.


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