# Ashy flavours = beans are stale?



## Java Jive (Sep 21, 2013)

I've been getting an unpleasant after-taste of ashtrays the last few days, is this a marker that the beans are getting stale ? The beans, HasBean Nicaragua Finca Limoncillo Washed Cattura, were roasted 7th Nov and have been really lovely till the 29th or 3 weeks after roast.

The only other time I've had ash flavours was with HB Jailbreak and Blake blends which I'd bought pre-ground. Is ashiness just a factor of how fresh the coffee is or is it more complicated ? Is it possible to tweak the brew method to help reduce it or should the beans be binned ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

It's unlikely that an ashy taste is due to the age of the beans, the flavour will change over a few weeks (acidity will drop), but as long as you are grinding just before use, this is more a matter of preference than a "fail" situation. Which brew method is giving you these flavours, describe your protocol (step by step, the devil may be in the detail)?


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Freshness, roast and how you prepare your shot are all important elements and you can try pulling shorter to get more out of the bean. Don't expect a stellar shot though.

A taste will change and become more roasty the older a bean gets and this is somewhat related to how light a bean was roasted in the first place.

If you are getting too many dark flavours, pull shorter and see how that helps.

I'm of a mind that HB should be drank fresh though, I know others here like their beans more rested.

N.B

I don't use HB for espresso, only brewed and after a few weeks I do notice a change in taste from acidic to more bitter.

That said, it's never an unmanageable change or anything that breaks the bean for me.


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## Java Jive (Sep 21, 2013)

Mark, my brew method has mostly been CCD for this bean. I don't usually weigh things now, just eyeball it using the same scoop for the beans and the lines on the CCD for the water, so weights are give or take a little. Happy to repeat and get exact numbers if useful.

Boil standard kettle then fill CCD to warm through.

Refill kettle and once that's boiled, start to grind beans (17-18g of beans in the Porlex, medium-fine grind or 6 clicks out from burr-lock).

Once beans are ground about 2 mins later, drain CCD, add coffee grounds then pour over hot water reasonably slowly. Water ~220g. No stirring.

Add lid to CCD and let stand for 35 mins.

Drain coffee into warmed mug. This takes about 2-3 mins. Yield approx 190g. Top up with ~60g freshly boiled water for a full mug.

Stir and drink.

The result I was getting was a lovely sweet coffee that absolutely needed no milk/sugar and the flavours were spot on for the HB taste notes for that bean. The flavour notes are still there but just recently with the addition of an nasty ashtray after-taste.

Interesting to hear acidity drops with bean age, thanks for that Mark & Kyle.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Hi Java Jive,

I have tried to replicate your brew as best I can...

18g 6 clicks out on the Porlex, HB Finca La Chorrera roasted 1/11.

220g water poured *slowly* over grounds, 2 min off boil.

35 min steep, I got 181g out in a little over 3 min draw down.

Added 60g of hot water from kettle.

It started off OK, but now I'm at the end, it's quite drying & astringent...congratulations, you've succeeded in something I didn't think possible in the new CCD - overextraction! ;-) I put it through the VST refractometer & software and got a 24.2% immersion yield.

I'd perhaps add the water first, then the grinds (or half the water, grinds, remaining water), this may help tame extraction a bit as, at first you get a "super concentrate" nestling in the base of the brewer (the first 50g+ being pretty much a straight pourover situation, which I'd prefer to avoid/limit), then the remainder of the water & coffee steeps above the bed, before passing through the bed again. There's also more chance of brew taking the path of least resistance through the shallower parts of the bed, at the edges (less of an issue with the old model as the paper "floats" more in the new version).

...or try adding the brew water quicker & a bit more of it, to fill the cavity under the paper quicker & dilute the pourover stage earlier?

I'd also come down on the coffee to water ratio too (you're around 77-82g/l), perhaps 56-65g/l? The best brews I have had were where I used a Swissgold (or other 4 cup permanent filter that fits in the brewer may help) as well as the paper, this lets the brew drain around the bed rather than passing though it again.

I'm surprised you need to steep that long with the Porlex, 8-15min might be enough to get you to typical French press levels of extraction? Taste as you go, spoon a little coffee out, into a cold cup, swirl 'til tepid, then taste.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Over extraction in a CCD?! Must be those pesky forlex-pines!!!!!


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## Java Jive (Sep 21, 2013)

Wow thanks for the detailed feedback Mark, that definitely gives me something to play with tomorrow morning. I'll take note of all the variables and report back. Still wondering why the coffee was delicious until 2 days ago though. Maybe I've just drifted too far off the mark with something. I'll give the grinder a clean too.

Thanks again.


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## Java Jive (Sep 21, 2013)

Update from today's first brew, changes in italics:

CCD given a thorough wash with hot soapy water, Porlex dismantled and given a good brush and wipe.

Method much as before but weighed things out properly - used level AeroPress scoop of beans which weighed 15g

Poured over water in one sloosh to usual level and this came to 226g

Put on lid and left to brew. Sampled every 5 mins after 15 mins and finally drained after 30 mins. Drain took 3 mins.

Result: the ashy after-taste has gone but the flavour profile has changed as well. This cup was brighter and missing the sticky-sweet caramelised sugar flavour of toffee apple caramel that I was getting before. Instead it had a mild coconut flavour which is completely new.

I'm guessing the flavour change is down to the quick pour-over. I say this because the CCD gets a good clean once a week, the Porlex about every 2 weeks and I'm pretty sure I've drained at 30 mins before, so those variables should have been cycled through. However I haven't kept notes and I know memory is inherently unreliable.

Interim conclusion: Coffee is a pesky, weird animal that can shapeshift at the drop of a hat. Taking decent notes is a good first step in understanding it.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Java Jive said:


> Interim conclusion: Coffee is a pesky, weird animal that can shapeshift at the drop of a hat. Taking decent notes is a good first step in understanding it.


Indeed, different coffees & even the same coffee at different ages past roast, may give up their solutes at different rates. So focussing on a specific time, from brew to brew, can cloud the issue...that sticky sweet taste may still be accessible, but as you've reigned the extraction back with the faster fill, may take longer to hit...or, you find a way to speed up extraction a tad (grind, coffee to water ratio)? Keep up the tasting, that's the clincher...you might find different profiles that you like from the same coffee, but don't draw down until you hit on one.


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## Java Jive (Sep 21, 2013)

MWJB said:


> ...that sticky sweet taste may still be accessible, but as you've reigned the extraction back with the faster fill, may take longer to hit...


Ok, this is making a good connection for me. I've just made another brew (15g/229g, coffee/water) but left it 35 mins. That extra 5 mins has bought out the sweetness a tad with that sticky caramel just noticable in the background. Overall it's still bright and the flavour reminds me of green tea with a touch of sugar brûlée added. Also the cooler it gets, the more the brûlée comes to the fore. Coffee gets more fascinating the more I learn!

Thanks for your input Mark, you've been generous with your time and experience and it's much appreciated.


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