# Sage Oracle Not Heating



## Bojangz (Apr 27, 2021)

I recently purchased a second hand Sage Oracle (BES980UK) but when I switch it on it doesn't get past about 69C.

I've searched numerous forums and have commonly seen people having this problem after descaling. As I bought the machine second hand I don't know the history, but I have tried the suggestions of tipping the machine forward to free air bubbles. I have unscrewed the espresso boiler and steam boiler valves and completely drained both. After switching the machine on the pump kicks in and both boilers fill again. I left the valve open for a couple of seconds when they are refilling to avoid 'air bubbles'.

Unfortunately the problem persists.

After leaving the machine on for a few minutes (temp reads 69/70) on the display, draining the steam boiler the water comes out cold. Espresso boiler comes out hot, hot water can also be dispensed.

Can anyone suggest what the problem might be and how to fix it?

Any help is appreciated!


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## SO8 (May 24, 2020)

Sounds deffo airlock. I had it and it took about 4 goes to free up after a descale by opening the screws for the boilers at the right times. I thought I followed the instructions to the letter but hadn't. Go back and do it step by step ... I made a tiny error and once I realised I was not reading it right I sorted it. Just an idea.


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## Bojangz (Apr 27, 2021)

Thanks for the tip. I have opened the screw whilst the pump filled the boiler a few times now. First time a fair amount of scale and some gunk came out and each time some scale is coming out.

I've ordered some descale tablets so I'll run the full process.

I've checked the service menu and 'calculated scale level' is reading as 0064. Not sure if this is considered high or low?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Bojangz said:


> Thanks for the tip. I have opened the screw whilst the pump filled the boiler a few times now. First time a fair amount of scale and some gunk came out and each time some scale is coming out.


 A major problem for Sage - machines allowed to get to that state in the first place. I suppose it happens as people buy machines and don't consider how hard their water is but I often get the impression that people don't want to descale. Changing the water filter isn't popular either even the old one. Scale never causes a machine to act up quickly it just does so eventually even on their thermo machines where problems due to it will crop up sooner than boilers. Buy other makes and it's unusual to find any facilities for an easy descale. Some people avoid the problem completely by artificially hardening RO or distilled water. Others use certain brands of bottled water. Descaling now and again is still very probably a good idea as bottled water will have stuff dissolved in it.

Descaler comes in powder form and you are likely to need to do it a number of times and may have tank draining problems as well.

There is a catch with descaling, When I joined this forum there were a number of Sage DB owners. Good machine comments but little else about the advantages it has. So I bought refurbished one as was unsure. The refurbishers will have descaled it and I did too when it arrived. I descaled it again when the machine requested it etc and after one I was unsure about the brew boiler draining so went through the entire thing again. This resulted in the steam boiler noise when heating up slowly petering out rather than just stopping. Scale had been interfering with PID action and previous descales hadn't removed all of it. It wont if there is too much. One change was that steam was available as soon as the brew boiler had heated up rather than shortly after. Since then I have descaled it a couple of times when I felt like doing it. Another change, very gentle boiling noises when steam is already available.  I think I have got rid of all of it now but there may still be scale sludge in the bottom of the boilers. That means that the boiler drain pipes may block and I may get the dreaded valve error during a descale. That can also happen when the sludge levels get high - the level sensors won't work correctly. The probes may need cleaning - descaling probably helps with that too. These problems needs a manual descale technique that had to be used before they added the drains. There is a video on youtube about it.


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## Bojangz (Apr 27, 2021)

So I ran the descale and a lot more scale came out of the steam boiler, especially on the clean water purge phase. No scale from the espresso boiler though.

Unfortunately no luck on the heating issue.

I ran a second descale, very little scale came out this time. I did notice that not much water came out of the espresso boiler when I first emptied prior to the descale. Not sure why this was, perhaps it didn't fill properly?

Each time I empty the steam boiler the water is completely cold.

I will try another descale tomorrow, but does anyone have any other thoughts as to what the problem could be, or is an air bubble/airlock still the most likely issue?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

If the steam water isn't hot when it's drained chances are a thermal fuse may have blown due to it heating it with no water in the boiler. Scale can cause that. The fuse usually protects the heating element. It's not easy to get at. Probably details on home barista but will be for the BES920, the dual boiler. I did have a no heat during descale on one cycle and the machine fixed itself next time I tried. My DB is a refurb. The first one they sent me failed to fill the steam boiler and took out the thermal fuse. In some ways I see it as my fault as the pump rattled and made all sorts noises indicating that it wasn't pumping correctly when it filled for the first time. I let it run like that for a long time. A dry filter can cause this sort of thing. Air locks not sure. It may be something that can happen when a machine is transported with water in it.

The brew boiler is said to hold ~300ml and steam 600 so not too difficult to see if they are draining completely.

I had a thought on getting more pressure in the brew boiler while descaling but haven't tried it. Fit the portafilter with the back flush disk in and as they suggest press the button to start the pump. That way flow will be max through the drain and full pump pressure applied if needed.

Problem with all of this - if there is scale sludge in the boilers doing it could make the situation worse and the drains may block. Might be best to do it the old way from before when the drains were fitted. Replacement O rings will be needed. Rather than pump descaler in from the tank put it directly into the boilers as this shows. Use a 300ml syringe. Amazon have all sorts some with pipe but some stiffer ptfe pipe may be needed say 4mm od 3mm id.






There are other bits and pieces of info on the machines here

https://outwestcoffee.com.au/index.php/diy-coffee-machine-repair-guides/

This sort of problem gives Sage a bad name. Not fair really as espresso machines of any type = scale. They make the machines easy to descale but people don't. Might even buy one when their tap water is unsuitable. Look for cheaper filters that aren't the same as the ones that should be fitted. Be reluctant to maintain the machine in general. A favourite is assuming pore over filters soften water. Some people go to extreme lengths to avoid scale as it causes grief eventually on all. Rehardened RO or distilled water. Certain brands of bottled water not any old bottled water. Clearly they must be mad.

Repair - all sorts of things can be repaired in them if people have the aptitude  some may be impossible and have to be done via Sage. Those don't seem to happen all that often. There is plenty of info on getting at all sorts of parts in the DB on home barista.

The man in the video looks like he should clean his level probes to me. I suspect fine wire wool or a brillo pad is suitable. Descaling probably cleans them as well.


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## Bean E Man (Jan 28, 2019)

Bojangz said:


> I recently purchased a second hand Sage Oracle (BES980UK) but when I switch it on it doesn't get past about 69C.
> 
> I've searched numerous forums and have commonly seen people having this problem after descaling. As I bought the machine second hand I don't know the history, but I have tried the suggestions of tipping the machine forward to free air bubbles. I have unscrewed the espresso boiler and steam boiler valves and completely drained both. After switching the machine on the pump kicks in and both boilers fill again. I left the valve open for a couple of seconds when they are refilling to avoid 'air bubbles'.
> 
> ...


 Have you checked the lever position on the right hand side for the stream wand?? I had a similar issue on my Oracle and the problem was that I had accidentally knocked the lever out of the middle position. Check it's in the middle on start up


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## woodbar (Aug 28, 2020)

Bean E Man said:


> Have you checked the lever position on the right hand side for the stream wand?? I had a similar issue on my Oracle and the problem was that I had accidentally knocked the lever out of the middle position. Check it's in the middle on start up


 I was just thinking that as I read and scrolled down the post - this has happened to me a couple of times AND if you centralise the steam lever the brew boiler still does not heat above about 72 degrees UNTIL I draw off some hot water.


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## Bojangz (Apr 27, 2021)

Thanks for the suggestions all, I have tried them and no luck. Leaves me to believe that either the steam boiler isn't filling correctly or the thermal fuse is gone. I have tried to take the top cover off but discovered that the two screws which are accessed from the front (recessed deep either side of the group head) have been damaged and overtightened by the previous owner. I've been unable to unscrew them.

Has anyone had this before or knows the best way to get them out? Is there anyway to access in the top without removing these screws?

Struggling here!

Photos of the screws are here


http://imgur.com/ggKBdOg


Is it ok to turn the machine on its head so I can get more force on to the screws? Or will this cause leaks in the machine?


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Make sure you are using the correct type of s/driver, not sure if they use philips or pozi drive , also the correct tip size in good condition. :good:

The head does not look too bad.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

They seem to be phillips but the Chinese or some one have come up with an odd size. It can be found in various precision screwdriver sets on amazon. Look at the list of bits. It's 3.5. It gives a better positive drive than phillips for that size of screw will.

You may find a larger than you would have thought PH screwdriver fits. I had no luck with that but had a couple of precision screw driver sets with the bit.

If this problem crops up after a descale it will down to loose scale and sludge. I recollect a DB owner who wouldn't descale because that is when the valve error crops up. Snap - descaling too late. Some one on here noticed scale coming out of the drains - lucky they haven't blocked. On some machines the scale builds up so much the machine thinks the boiler is full - the thermal fuse may save the heater. Machines like this need dealing with as they used have to before the drains were fitted.


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## gareth689 (Mar 28, 2021)

Those screws look more like a torq-set bit rather than Philips or pozi?


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

gareth689 said:


> Those screws look more like a torq-set bit rather than Philips or pozi?


 No torx bits have 6 points, those only have 4 but they do look a little odd.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

They need the bit I mentioned. I have actually undone them. Actually the machine is fine with just the lid dropped on.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It's in this set

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B075YL3D2J/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## gareth689 (Mar 28, 2021)

El carajillo said:


> No torx bits have 6 points, those only have 4 but they do look a little odd.


 Torq-set is completely different to a torx bit. Torq-set is more like an offset Philips bit


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

That is a new one on me. Just looked them up, in the enlarged view the arms are offset from the centre and in the photo the arms do look slightly offset. Possibly that is what they are and why phil / poz do not grip well.


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## Bojangz (Apr 27, 2021)

Well I finally managed to get the screws out, with a whole lot of effort. I even completely bent one of my drill bits in the process. Whoever put them in last did them super tight...

Some photos of the inside, doesn't look too great. There is some brown staining on the steam boiler, assume this could be rust due to long term leaking.

One of the solenoids has also been replaced.

Any pointers on where to start and does anything look completely wrong? I'm starting to think it might be time to get the pros in to refurbish this machine.

What's the best way to test the thermal fuse? I have a multimeter but the guidance I have seen where someone replaced their thermal fuse looks like a lot of work, it'd be good to test something to confirm mine needs replacing without tearing the machine apart!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

El carajillo said:


> That is a new one on me. Just looked them up, in the enlarged view the arms are offset from the centre and in the photo the arms do look slightly offset. Possibly that is what they are and why phil / poz do not grip well.


 It was a new one on me too. The X is not offset. Best description is it needs a phillips screwdriver of some size with the end flattened off. They don't use them on the BE. Advantage seems to be a lot more drive available and less chance of caming out - thebug bear of philips. it was designed in to suite torque limited screwdriver capabilities at the time - air driven used during production of all sorts of things.

 Any way in terms of telling some one how to get them out - well sometimes you can't lead a horse to water.


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## Bojangz (Apr 27, 2021)

So I have cleaned the steam boiler probes, there was a visible layer of scale on them. Didn't solve the problem though. The inside of the steam boiler is fairly scaled and there is sludge-looking stuff in the bottom. Is it ok to pour descale solution into the steam boiler from one of the probe holes and syphon it back out? It would be good to get this thing nice and cleaned up.

I've ordered a long screw driver for the two screws at the bottom of the machine in order to get access to the thermal fuse...Should have arrived on Friday but still don't have it.

Any other suggestions or tips to service this machine myself would be helpful. I'm worried about the staining around the steam boiler, assume I need to put in new o-rings?


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## Bojangz (Apr 27, 2021)

So I have finally gotten around to sorting this...Here is the thermal fuse for anyone who is interested in what it looks like.

Unfortunately I don't have any wire crimps to crimp the new one on so I'll have to order some.

Also some photos of the gunk that I managed to syphon out the steam boiler. It's spotless inside now.

Hopefully replacing the thermal fuse will work.

Can anyone advise what might have caused the fuse to blow in the first place? I'm worried I will have gone to this effort to replace the fuse but another fault will cause it to blow again. What else should I check?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Sludge is one. Level probes need cleaning - brillo pad maybe. Going on the first refurb I had pump acting up can as well. It didn't sound right for some time when I filled it for the 1st time when it arrived and I took no notice. Airlock, pumping some air. Not sure.


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## TonyD (Jul 9, 2021)

Hi folks. Had the same problem with my Sage Oracle - wouldn't heat beyond 70 degrees following a descale. The root-cause issue was a blown thermal fuse. Detailed instructions on how to change the fuse can be found here:

https://www.home-barista.com/repairs/breville-oracle-bes980xl-thermal-fuse-replacement-detailed-disassembly-t58936.html

I've also added some additional tips at the end of littleyip's thread.

Delighted to say I now have coffee again..


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## Tomr18222 (1 mo ago)

Horrendous experience so far. Have the Oracle Touch. 

Water on level 2 hardness, so not that hard, used filters and always changed as advised. Thought to do a descale after 10 months just for ‘good practice’ of keeping marching going as filters don’t take everything out.
had the issue with heating to 70 degs, tried the cooling, tipping, leaving overnight etc advice from sage. Nothing. Had a repair guy out at Sage’s expense as under warranty still. He said just purely build up of scale and changed the probes to new ones. He said to descale ever 2 months to keep on top of it.

2 months later, do a descale, same thing happens again.

I’ll be on the blower to Sage again but this just simply isn’t right. Too many people with the same issue. They can’t be making any money off the machine with all the call outs etc


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Tomr18222 said:


> Have the Oracle Touch.





Tomr18222 said:


> Water on level 2 hardness


Was the machine bought used? My first DB was used and what finishes up in the boilers depends on the previous user. A descale may not get it all out. Unlikely as your machine is under warranty but worth mentioning,

I just replaced my dual boiler very recently and wasn't too keen on the test strip provided. Rather hard to say what the reading actually was. Out of date maybe? Replaced with a dropper hardness test from Toolstation. Inexpensive. Add drops and count until the solution is blue - no trace of pink. Overdoing that just means the machine may be set at a harder level than it need be but so what. I do that anyway. Some water suppliers specify hardness but in practice the supply may vary if they abstract away from their usual source when demand is high.

The boilers in the DB are the same as the Oracle. Many people buy them and have no problems at all. Seals go eventually but the O rings used are easy to replace. A survey of sorts in another forum reckons best do this at 3 years. Other sources suggest yearly. Water hardness can be a problem for all espresso machines. Some old posts say this problem only crops up Sage BD variants following a descale so don't. Rather self defeating. Certain brands of bottled water can be used that are said to result in no scale,

I use Puly descaler just as Sage engineers do.  I had a visit following a grinder problem on Barista Express. The descaler needs to be ok on aluminium and brass. The seals use a brass part,

I also drain the brew boiler first as it's easier to check it's all come out, Problems with draining can be down to scale sludge in the drainage pipes.

Your experiances seem a little odd to me unless you have rather hard water, My previous machine used the old filters but I do have soft tap water, The new machine uses the new filter, Probably replaced with the ones Amazon sell when needed,  Pass on if those are as good as Sage's.


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## Tomr18222 (1 mo ago)

New. Bought from sage directly. 
Cold water comes out the steam boiler.
Hot (or 68 degree Celsius) water comes out the left boiler. 
So shouldn’t be much sludge as clear fluid is coming out.
Brita filtered and also a filter in the water tank.

I’m at a complete loss


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Sludge can collect in the bottom of the boiler and needn't come out via the usual paths out.

It sounds like your machine has heated the steam boiler before there is enough water in it. That can result in a thermal fuse blowing - I think that is mentioned in one of the posts in this thread.

Scratching my head trying to think how that might happen. The new filter needs a bit of care to get it to initially fill with water when new. Sage say soak for 5min or something like that. I found it needed to be on it's side at a slight angle and held under to let air get out of it's base. It would then sink. I recollect people finding this out when the new filter was fitted to Sage's other machines. Effect - no water getting through.

The usual effect with steam water that is too cold is a beep when it's selected.

Level probes can cause problems but haven't in ~4years on my previous DB,  The machine has other problems that I may or may not be able to fix.

I don't think anyone really rates Brita filters in terms of softening water for an espresso machine. Sage did and may still recommend using an alternative source of water if the tap water is over a certain level of hardness. Bottled. Brands should be mentioned in searches on here.

At least you can call out an engineer. If we lived in Oz or NZ we would be able to buy spares. Sage seem to block that in the UK but will repair at a cost.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Another thought. It might be worth checking the filter is fully charged and trying again. It will not play ball if the level probes don't show sufficient water but there are 2 levels on steam so that cold water is unlikely to be added while you are steaming. That would reduce the steam temperature. Normally it would top up fully when the machine is not steaming,


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## Tomr18222 (1 mo ago)

The engineer who came to fix it the first time suggested to get a Brita filter jug and to descale every 2 months. He will back on Wednesday to fix it again.
I’ll ask him for more information and suggestions to avoid recurrence and feedback.


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## Tomr18222 (1 mo ago)

Engineer back out. Same issue. So basically, the water is super hard. Nothing broken, just calcium on the probes. Cleaned the calcium off, worked a treat. So I just need either
A) to descale even more regularly
B) don’t descale at all and wait for the machine to stop, then clean the probes (I watched him do it and when my machine is out of warranty, I’ll happily do it myself - it’s really easy if you have a screwdriver and a torx

there will be a cost balance between loads of descaled and my time vs waiting a year for it to stop and then clean the probes…


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## longhardgrind (Mar 17, 2017)

There are lots of other ways that scale can spoil your day. Descal reguarly and use filtered ot bottled water. Just my opinion.


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## Tomr18222 (1 mo ago)

Will continue to use filtered water for sure!
Just the internal debate on a fortnightly descale and machine should fire back up or every 3 months and just clean the probes which is a 5min job knowing it won’t fill the boiler.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Scale in boilers is a problem. It can take a while to show effects. Jammed valves, solenoid rattle and etc. It can get to a stage where one descale wont remove all. If that happens regularly when the descale is done to some schedule it continuously adds a bit more each time it's done.

People should really check the hardness of the water they stick in the tank. There are levels that are unlikely to work out. Hardness testing kits don't exactly cost a lot but stick to ones that just measure hardness,

TBH I find scale causing level probe problems that can be cured by cleaning them rather odd, What it can do is interfere with draining the tanks when they are descaled. It seems they can indicate correct levels when they aren't. That could result in more seriously problems.

This problem is not one I have experienced on my DB's, yet anyway. Hope I don't. Another machine the BE uses the flow meter to indicate that water is flowing as soon as the pump goes on and shuts the machine down if it doesn't. There was a rash of some machines that showed this symptom because the connections to it were loose.


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## Tomr18222 (1 mo ago)

The boilers drain when the descaling process is underway. I’d imagine either nothing coming out or it all coming out? And liquid does come out when both are drained separately and steam rises. I’ll send pictures when I next to a descale if I need to clean the probes.
My true preference is to find the frequency by trial and error to descale to keep it running correctly. 
2 months was too long. I’ll do another after new year for 1 month and see what happens. And if it works fine straight after, I’ll just do it monthly. Plus, to your point, it should eat away at any other build up after a few descales until it clears everything up


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