# Am I Reading It Right??????



## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

I sure I am, but I thought I would clear it up once and for all. When making a large cappuccino I do it like this. 15g into the basket then one small cup under one of the spouts on my portafilter sat on the scales then another cup sat on the drainage grille under the other. I then set the timer to 25 seconds, zero the scales and set the Gaggia and timer running together while keeping an eye on the scales. I have the grinder set-up pretty good, so everything is coming together well. Once done I take it I have a double shot in each cup now, 25g of liquid coffee?

I then decant the contents of each small cup into one large cup, then foam some milk and pour this into the large cup along with the coffee I just made. With this In mind I take it I now have Cappuccino with a quadruple shot in it? While it tastes lovely it is probably small wonder that after a couple I feel totally wired. Might be an idea to back off a little? If I am making a Cappuccino for my wife and I, I use one 25g shot in each cappo in a smaller cup, but if she doesn't want one I put both 25g cups into one large cup and make one for myself. It seems such a shame to waste one.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

No, that would make 2 single shots. Put them together you have a double.


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

Thanks Aaron. So a single shot is classed as 25g then?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Think extraction ratios. 1:1.5 ristretto terrritory: 1:2.0 normale territory. So, with 15grms in would give you 22-23grms out total. For a normale it would be 30grms. Your extraction of 50grms gives an extraction ratio of 1:3 which is getting into lungo territory. Main thing is how it tastes to you though - if you like your caps light on espresso, fine, but try it as aaronb says as single shot into your cap and play around with extraction ratios.


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## TonyW (Jul 17, 2012)

If I understand you right, it sounds like you are pulling 50g from a 15g shot? I think that would be classed as a lungo or long double rather than a quadruple. You've basically got a double espresso with extra water, I think.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

A double shot it 50g or there about, so using the 1 to 1.6 ratio you would need about 30g in the basket, good luck with that one, even in a triple..

I don't think the gaggia is geared up to do anything more than 30g, you can try but you will get blonding after this.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

m4lcs67 said:


> Thanks Aaron. So a single shot is classed as 25g then?


A "single" shot is a shot brewed from a single PF basket, or half the output from a double basket. Volume/weight produced in terms of liquid is almost irrelevant, it's the dosing that dictates.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> A double shot it 50g or there about, so using the 1 to 1.6 ratio you would need about 30g in the basket, good luck with that one, even in a triple..
> 
> I don't think the gaggia is geared up to do anything more than 30g, you can try but you will get blonding after this.


Or if you want 50g out change the ratio & grind.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Or if you want 50g out change the ratio & grind.


Still aiming to get it out in a window of 20-30 seconds though?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Still aiming to get it out in a window of 20-30 seconds though?


Well, if you're pulling shots by ratio (whatever that ratio is), time & blonding are secondary (within reason). It's the shot weight & taste that are key. So if you aim for a given ratio then change the target output weight during the pull because of time, or blonding, then you're not really brewing by ratio any more.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I see, so which way would you go, finer to slow the pour? coarser to speed it up?


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## Ralphus84 (May 9, 2014)

It depends on your ratio. I use a ratio of 1.7 at the moment.

So for your case:

15g * 1.7 = 25.5g (Which I would class as a double shot)


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Ralphus84 said:


> It depends on your ratio. I use a ratio of 1.7 at the moment.
> 
> So for your case:
> 
> 15g * 1.7 = 25.5g (Which I would class as a double shot)


On what basis is that a double, output weight, ratio?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Double on the the basis of dose


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## Ralphus84 (May 9, 2014)

I suppose depends what you are aiming for. Input weight, ratio and output weight.

I will get in my box now.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> I see, so which way would you go, finer to slow the pour? coarser to speed it up?


Finer to push up extraction & reduce sourness/overly acidic flavours. This will slow the pour, but that's as much a side effect rather than driving the extraction. You earlier suggested "20-30seconds"...as targets go, that's quite a margin (+50%/-33%) & could reasonably be wider still than that. 1:1.6 is always 1:1.6, if you hit 1.5 or 1.6 you're only talking +/-6%.


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

Thanks folks. Whichever way, it is tasting nice and strong. I certainly wouldn't be having one before bed though!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Double on the the basis of dose


Yeah i dont get it, i thought a double was 2oz output, about 60g?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Single, double, triple etc relate to the amount (dose ) input. Traditionally a single is 7g, double 14ish and triple 21 or so. 17/18 is a popular dose now though


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

And then the standard for a double out is about 28g if you convert 1.7 oz..

So that blows the ratio 1:1.6 out the window?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

froggystyle said:


> Yeah i dont get it, i thought a double was 2oz output, about 60g?


The concept of single and double (IMO) is loosely based around a single basket versus double basket & a single spout and double spout portafilter. Its quite antiquated from old Italian style espresso.

You take a set amount of coffee in a ''double basket'', force hot water through it under pressure and it comes out of two spouts, if the output goes into two cups , these are singles. If output all goes into one cup then thats a double. If you use a naked filter then obviously you can forget singles/ split pours .

Where is gets complex is if you throw a single basket into the mix. I guess in theory you can still split the output, although this would be minuscule!

I think it is more useful to think about baskets in terms of intended dose in grams (bravo VST for taking the lead) and then obtaining an output appropriate for your recipe and hardware. This is your espresso. If you choose to divvy up that espresso (or not) is your choice.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

froggystyle said:


> And then the standard for a double out is about 28g if you convert 1.7 oz..
> 
> So that blows the ratio 1:1.6 out the window?


I do wish we would stop measuring output by volume, its not helpful in anyway


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Sod it, in a nutshell what ever tastes good !


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

15g of coffee into the basket and 2x25g out is waaaaaaayyyyy to much. That would seriously taper off into bitterness rather than intense flavour. Even 30g out of 15 would be generous. But hey, if you like it, then carry on. That's definitely into the kind of ratio favoured by Costa Coffee's the country across... only they do it over a delicate 15 seconds or so


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

shrink said:


> 15g of coffee into the basket and 2x25g out is waaaaaaayyyyy to much. That would seriously taper off into bitterness rather than intense flavour. Even 30g out of 15 would be generous. But hey, if you like it, then carry on. That's definitely into the kind of ratio favoured by Costa Coffee's the country across... only they do it over a delicate 15 seconds or so


Unless you have appropriate hardware.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Anyway, back to Malcs question, i do not believe the classic is capable of getting out much more than 30g, that tastes good.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Unless you have appropriate hardware.


what... an EK43 and some kind of pump driven machine with pressure profiling


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

shrink said:


> what... an EK43 and some kind of pump driven machine with pressure profiling


Bingo. Not conventional admittedly


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> And then the standard for a double out is about 28g if you convert 1.7 oz..
> 
> So that blows the ratio 1:1.6 out the window?


The ratio has nothing to do with double/single/triple. A single at 1:1.6 would be small, but it would be 1.6x single basket load, or half of a double basket load x1.6.

The amount of weight you get from any one dose is somewhat arbitrary, there is no "standard", just common preferences. 1:1.6 usually relates to a strength of ~11-12%TDS, some like their espresso less concentrated, others moreso, from 4%TDS to 15%TDS or more.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Anyway, back to Malcs question, i do not believe the classic is capable of getting out much more than 30g, that tastes good.


The machine doesn't know what output you want, you set that by grind, which will depend on your grinder/grind quality & how much you can extract from the coffee in question. The brew ratio is pertinent to concentration, not necessarily flavour balance (unless something in your set up, only allows a good flavour balance within a tight range of concentration).


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Anyway, back to Malcs question, i do not believe the classic is capable of getting out much more than 30g, that tastes good.


With what dose , what bean , what circumstances.....?

Anyway pulling something like a SQM kochere ( think Neil did this and Jeebsy will have too ) longer out output shots sweeten up considerably

As said the machine doesn't know what you are doing or making .. it may be that the medium to dark home roasted beans aren't good at those outputs for you ....


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

shrink said:


> what... an EK43 and some kind of pump driven machine with pressure profiling


A good machine and serious grinder whatever it is can produce some amazing results outside the box of the notional "ideal" which is just a guideline anyway, and who cares what the amount you pull from a basket is if it tastes good to you. I'm having some superb results pulling a 20 g dose into ~38g in around 36-38 seconds, so well outside both the 1:1.6 and 25 second territory.


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