# Sugar



## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

My Brother put me onto Billingtons Mollasses sugar a while ago and it is my sugar of choice now. Leagues better than the refined stuff and has a wonderful smell. I only have half a teaspoon (as I find coffee a little bitter without and a tiny amount of sugar just rounds the taste a smidge). It comes in a box and is virtually a block of sugar. Really sticky, but add a little to a cup of coffee and it really does the business.


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## gcogger (May 18, 2013)

While it's entirely subjective, I don't understand why people use 'nice' sugars in coffee. If all you want to do is to offset bitterness, then white sugar will do that without adding other flavours. If you use a raw sugar then you are adding sweetness and a bunch of other flavours to your coffee. Personally I avoid anything but white sugar, but that's just me


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

It has a caramelly taste that I like the smell of it is really nice. Yes I agree that it is probably overkill and the fact that you end up paying top dollar for a premium sugar when standard refined granulated sugar will more than likely do as equally a good job. I't is all those little quirks that different people have I guess.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

While I would never insist there is a correct way to drink coffee and that everyone should drink coffee without sugar it might be worth considering why your coffee is bitter and could you be bringing out more natural sweetness which could mean you don't need to add sugar. What way do you drink your coffee and what set up have you got? It may be possible to get rid of the bitterness.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Oh, and what beans are you using?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I find sugar repulsive in most specialty coffee. If the coffee is fresh and prepared well the balance of sweetness is already there. Milk drinks are mega sweet naturally if steamed correctly.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Horses for courses I guess.

I've never taken sugar with coffee or tea and even the slightest amount spoils a drink for me but its all about personal preference.

Mrs WD was loading 3 spoons of sugar in a cup of instant when I first met her and was going for the sweetness rather than the flavour of the drink although I'm not sure which tasted worse - the instant or the sugar.


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

I echo Neil and Gary. If your finding your coffee bitter then instead of correcting it with sugar you should try and correct it with your technique. I'm sure you'll enjoy it more and appreciate the subtle flavours.


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Agree with most of the above posts and I never have sugar in any drink! As I personally want to taste the coffee or tea etc and not what I am adding.

But also its empty calories!! (I know its a bit sad but its true!!) guy at work has about 5 instant coffees a day with three sugars each time 45kcal in just sugar per cup! 230kcal a day thats equivialant to a chocolate bar and would much rather have one of them! Or if he cut it out he could lose 24lbs of fat in a year by changing nothing else!!


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Just to add a bit of balance to this thread.... Although I dont have anything in my coffee if I do drink black tea (which is not often usually go for green tea) I will add milk and about 10 chocolate hobnobs and hence the reason I dont drink much of it!!


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## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

via http://themetapicture.com/21-brilliant-british-people-problems/

I mean no offence, it just made me laugh me and I thought of this thread!*

*To be clear I don't take sugar. Yes they are


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Can of worms there, Dave, can of worms


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I'm a bit of a sugar advocate.

Either I have never ever had a coffee that has been properly made (this would be perfectly possible if it were just me, but I regularly visit 'good' independents) or I can always pick up on a bitterness, however subtle, to coffee. I will always taste the coffee first, and my sugar ranges from 1/4 of a teaspoon to a full teaspoon depending on the flavour in the coffee.

Personally I think the taste of coffee is complimented by a slight sweetness. Much like the taste of cocoa is also complemented by sugar.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I have a pretty sweet tooth, though I can probably concede that this has dimished as I have cut out a lot of sugar in my diet, but I sometimes find brewed coffee to be cloyingly sweet without sugar. If it's not honey sweet, it's something I have done wrong (though sometimes a coffee may not hit the degree of sweetness I look for). Espresso/drip can be somewhat layered in the cup, a slug of sweetness in the lower half, so I can see assessing sweetness on a first sip as tricky.

...but take it how you like it, it's supposed to be an enjoyable experience, not a punishment/chore.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MWJB said:


> I have a pretty sweet tooth, though I can probably concede that this has dimished as I have cut out a lot of sugar in my diet,* but I sometimes find brewed coffee to be cloyingly sweet without sugar*. If it's not honey sweet, it's something I have done wrong (though sometimes a coffee may not hit the degree of sweetness I look for). Espresso/drip can be somewhat layered in the cup, a slug of sweetness in the lower half, so I can see assessing sweetness on a first sip as tricky.
> 
> ...but take it how you like it, it's supposed to be an enjoyable experience, not a punishment/chore.


Is that a typo?


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Dave.wilton said:


> View attachment 5924
> 
> 
> via http://themetapicture.com/21-brilliant-british-people-problems/
> ...


I think this is part of the issue with any hobby when people get obsessed/immersed in it they have a tendency to look down a bit on others that dont do things that we know/believe is the propper/correct way (or maybe its just me







) I remember seeing that thread the other day when the coffee shop refused to give a customer sugar to put in THEIR coffee that they had paid for (or were going to pay for) we dont have the right to force other people to do things that they dont want to! But certainly to guide them and poke them in the 'right direction' but if they dont like it that way then fine

I keeping getting Mrskikapu to try my espresso in the vain hope that she will like one but all she does is pull faces and get me to put at least 8oz of milk onto it!! However I have started to make her americanos and she has actually liked these. When my Hausgrind arrives I am hopefull she will not want any milk in her brewed coffee and then we are well on the way to making her one of US!!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Is that a typo?


No, I sometimes brew coffee & think "Phew, that's just too sticky sweet". I don't even have sugar in the house to add if I wanted to.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MWJB said:


> No, I sometimes brew coffee & think "Phew, that's just too sticky sweet". I don't even have sugar in the house to add if I wanted to.


I misread it as if it was saying ''unless you put sugar in brewed coffee then its too sweet'' silly me, lol

''I sometimes find brewed coffee to be cloyingly sweet *without *sugar''

''I sometimes find brewed coffee to be cloyingly sweet *with *sugar''


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## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

kikapu said:


> I think this is part of the issue with any hobby when people get obsessed/immersed in it they have a tendency to look down a bit on others that dont do things that we know/believe is the propper/correct way (or maybe its just me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No it's not just you. My post was tongue in cheek. Yes I'm a bit obsessed and I do firmly believe that you shouldn't add sugar. Does it matter if you do? No not really. But I will always take it too seriously ?. Read the post as self criticism

Edit: but I'm sure there is a little bit of you who thinks people who drink instant are intellectually inferior ??


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## oracleoftruth (Jan 15, 2014)

I will have a macchiato when I think the espresso won't be that good (or is too bitter). The sweetness in the milk is just enough to round out the drink. it's usually due to coffee shops choosing coffee to go in milk and it not being great for espresso.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Doesit matter if I drink my coffee with crack then ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

...only to the local constabulary.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Doesit matter if I drink my coffee with crack then ?


Depends what you have first - if it's the latter it won't matter anyway!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

The OP does raise an interesting issue surprisingly little discussed on the forum. We happy obsessives think nothing of spending varying degrees of cash in the pursuit of coffee excellence including purchasing skill roasted high quality fresh beans. Roasted beans are three times more complex compared to wine in respect of constituent flavour elements - would we add things to wine to alter the taste? The answer is, obviously yes - punch, sangria etc but would we consider doing this to more expensive wine - not so sure about that. But back to adding sugar to coffee - surely this masks all the hard work and lengths we've gone to in the pursuit of coffee excellence. As a convert from 'sugar in everything', I think your palette does become more refined when what you're tasting isn't dominated by one flavour but this is only my view and I certainly don't want to appear preachy.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

To the op, hope we haven't scared you off with all of this. You really can drink coffee whatever way you want/like but if it's very bitter we might be able to help you work out why.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I had a conversation with a coffeeshop recently about this very topic.

Me ''If the latte needs sugar then you've oversteamed the milk, they are sweet enough''

Shop ''I wish you would tell my customers, I would save a fortune on packet-sugar and wooden stirers''

Me '' Thats the conversation YOU should be having with YOUR customers''

I think there in lies the problem


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

This is part of a larger debate regarding our general addiction to sugar and how the corporate interests are happy for us to eat it by the bucket load. Read somewhere that if sugar were to discovered today, it would be banned due to its adverse affect on general health. The way it finds itself into just about every conceivable processed food and more is a scandal.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

My Mrs would never give up brown sugar in her latte whatever. for me, putting sugar into coffee is like adding coke to a fine single malt scotch whisky. each to their own.

Talking of SM, bargain of the year in Asda. 10 year Aberlour reduced from £32 to £20, and i had the last bottle on the shelf today


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Am I addicted to sugar?? For sure I am. I had no sugar for about 4 weeks and apart from being really grumpy for the first two weeks I felt really good. But when I decided to have some milk chocolate the wheels fell off!!!

I dont eat procesed food very often due to all the added sugar and other rubbish but I now dont avoid sugar totally as have a very sweet tooth and it felt too much like punishment and lifes too short!! Somebody somewhere said something like this " If you gave up all the things that were bad for you might not live longer but it would sure feel like it!!"


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I didn't used to have much of a sweet tooth bit gave it up completely for 12 weeks as part of a fitness plan last year. Now when I do have some its like crack, one cookie or chocolate and the urge for more is massive. Maybe became more sensitive to the dreaded insulin spike


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Yeah sort of why I did it but have since realised for me its not worth depriving myself of something I really like! Wheres the fun in that, limit it a bit but excluding it nope!! I now usually have anything high sugar after exercise as can justify it that it is needed to replace my muscle glycogen!!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

kikapu said:


> can justify it that it is needed to replace my muscle glycogen!!


Yeah but that blunts GH doesnt it?


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Yeah but that blunts GH doesnt it?


Well it was a means of justifying it to myself didnt say it was right!!









I do IF although i dont follow it religously, I just basically dont eat breakfast and usually eat when hungry which usually ends up being lunchtime then just have fats and protein and this supposedly gets the best out of both!!

Quote;

"When examining the complex relationships between hormones and how they affect our physiology, it may seem like you can't win. Jacking up either GH or insulin may result in a quick surge of growth, but as soon as they peak, they're back to normal&#8230;Or lower. As frustrating as that may seem, dipping below baseline will usually result in a super-compensatory reaction; a large insulin spike in the evening will equate to larger GH spikes throughout the day, after training, and during sleep.

In contrast, you'll see greater insulin sensitivity and utilization of glucose in the evening if you let you GH handle the anabolism in the morning and throughout the night. What seems like counterproductive behavior at first may be the ticket to where you want to go. It is possible to get the best of both worlds if you deploy intelligent strategies to your daily nutrition, sleep and exercise."

To be honest if this is true none of this probably makes much a difference to me as it probably makes only a few % difference and other areas of my life are much more sub optimal for muscle and strength gain!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I dont subscribe to the whole ''must replenish immediately'' with sugars after exercise. Unless youve exerted yourself to near death Muscles and Liver etc will replenish just fine over time.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I have some carbs in my shake after, think it helps to blunt cortisol after training but not mega amounts. Carbs before bed ftw!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Is it ok to take crack after I exercise. .....


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

I agree meal timing is generally irrelivent, and there is certainly no 30 minute window when you must down a load of protein!! Thats the thing with health and fittness so much b***cks hard to know whats right without digging.

In the end I have deceided that I just do what I am happy with and is sustainable for me.

The best and most useful thing I have learnt is that meal timings doesnt really matter and that it doesnt hurt to not eat for an extended period. Many years ago I was taking like 5-6 little meals/snacks with me to work thinking you had to eat every 3 hours or you would start to waste awaywas such a pain preparing all that stuff!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Is it ok to take crack after I exercise. .....


clearly before hand. The Opiate/protein shakes comes after


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Is it ok to take crack after I exercise. .....


You mean you do exercise


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

kikapu said:


> I agree meal timing is generally irrelivent, and there is certainly no 30 minute window when you must down a load of protein!! Thats the thing with health and fittness so much b***cks hard to know whats right without digging.
> 
> In the end I have deceided that I just do what I am happy with and is sustainable for me.
> 
> The best and most useful thing I have learnt is that meal timings doesnt really matter and that it doesnt hurt to not eat for an extended period. Many years ago I was taking like 5-6 little meals/snacks with me to work thinking you had to eat every 3 hours or you would start to waste awaywas such a pain preparing all that stuff!


I used to do the same. Then I discovered beer and it was all over


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I used to do the same. Then I discovered beer and it was all over


Aaahhh yes not really a performance enhancing drug!!

Thankfully never really got into the proper stuff (beer) still time I guess! But isn't thrre lots of sugar in it!!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

kikapu said:


> Thankfully never really got into the proper stuff (beer) still time I guess! But isn't thrre lots of sugar in it!!


Im so sorry, your time will come hopefully


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## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

kikapu said:


> I agree meal timing is generally irrelivent, and there is certainly no 30 minute window when you must down a load of protein!! Thats the thing with health and fittness so much b***cks hard to know whats right without digging.
> 
> In the end I have deceided that I just do what I am happy with and is sustainable for me.
> 
> The best and most useful thing I have learnt is that meal timings doesnt really matter and that it doesnt hurt to not eat for an extended period. Many years ago I was taking like 5-6 little meals/snacks with me to work thinking you had to eat every 3 hours or you would start to waste awaywas such a pain preparing all that stuff!


The 30min window relates more to getting simple carbs onboard to maximise recovery post intense exercise. Certainly isn't b*****cks. Majority of people obsessed with losing weight or with training, massively under eat and what they do eat is the wrong stuff.


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## LeeR (Oct 27, 2013)

Not one for sugar in drinks but I have added a splash of spiced rum every now and again


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## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

Has to be brandy for me


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

MattRobbo45 said:


> The 30min window relates more to getting simple carbs onboard to maximise recovery post intense exercise. Certainly isn't b*****cks. Majority of people obsessed with losing weight or with training, massively under eat and what they do eat is the wrong stuff.


Maybe for endurance training this might be more apt but for weight training not so sure I have seen anything that proves this to be true if fact have seen the opposite. Unless you are training totally fasted. Like I said the industry is full of nonsense and contradictory info best thing anyone can do is stick to whatever suits and works for them

Main thing I think is calculate your cals and macros and eat to meet these when you can or want to.


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## LeeR (Oct 27, 2013)

MattRobbo45 said:


> Has to be brandy for me


I like your style


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## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

Weight training more so than endurance, but I'll not go there


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## oracleoftruth (Jan 15, 2014)

You don't want your body breaking down muscle to provide some inferior protein based energy when you've been trying to build muscle. Give it some Carbs and keep it happy. Not to mention what happens to your brain if you are low on glucose!! IT worries me how many people get in a car and drive after working out without any food!


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## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

What oracleoftruth said


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

If you've eaten sufficiently prior to training, even the day before, and not then exercised to the point of near death there isn't an issue. Our ancestors didnt drink 150g of dextrose solution post hunting their buffalo ; )


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## oracleoftruth (Jan 15, 2014)

Well you won't die obviously but there is a cognitive effect and also our ancestors likely did eat just after hunting!

It's an empirical question so try eating after strenuous activity and not and compare.


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> If you've eaten sufficiently prior to training, even the day before, and not then exercised to the point of near death there isn't an issue. Our ancestors didnt drink 150g of dextrose solution post hunting their buffalo ; )


Yeah I think this is very true for most people, there is a cut off where this isn't true and I think if your exercising hard for two hours probably best to immediately after but for most of us this won't apply.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> If you've eaten sufficiently prior to training, even the day before, and not then exercised to the point of near death there isn't an issue. Our ancestors didnt drink 150g of dextrose solution post hunting their buffalo ; )


Ah, that's why they died out then?


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Ah, that's why they died out then?


No that is why they did not get fat !!


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

Well blimey. This has become something of an eye opener for me. Never really regarded fresh coffee as naturally sweet. Either I have never had a genuinely great cup of coffee, am not as much of a coffee connoisseur as I thought I was or just a heathen with ideas above his station.


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## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> If you've eaten sufficiently prior to training, even the day before, and not then exercised to the point of near death there isn't an issue. Our ancestors didnt drink 150g of dextrose solution post hunting their buffalo ; )


Our ancestors didn't look to optimise recovery so that they could train effectively again in 24hrs and minimise micro trauma to their muscles.......









If you train once a week and aren't in a rush to recover it's not an issue.


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## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

El carajillo said:


> No that is why they did not get fat !!


They didn't get fat, because they didn't have refined sugar added to everything&#8230;&#8230; and the thread comes full circle


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## gcogger (May 18, 2013)

m4lcs67 said:


> Well blimey. This has become something of an eye opener for me. Never really regarded fresh coffee as naturally sweet. Either I have never had a genuinely great cup of coffee, am not as much of a coffee connoisseur as I thought I was or just a heathen with ideas above his station.


Or, just maybe, coffee tastes bitter to you no matter how good it is. It certainly does to me, and I don't have any kind of sweet tooth. It doesn't matter how much people want to look down on me for it, it's just the way my taste buds work.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

gcogger said:


> Or, just maybe, coffee tastes bitter to you no matter how good it is. It certainly does to me, and I don't have any kind of sweet tooth. It doesn't matter how much people want to look down on me for it, it's just the way my taste buds work.


This is what I would suggest as well. I have certainly has coffee that is only mildly bitter, but never one that has no bitterness, and I mostly drink a flat white which is already complemented by a slight sweetness of the milk.

I think, much like anything, if you persevered with drinking espresso (even if you didn't like it) your tastebuds would begin to taste it differently, maybe even losing some of the bitterness. Your tastebuds get 'used' to a flavour, and it then begins to taste different, just think of spicy food!


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## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> This is what I would suggest as well. I have certainly has coffee that is only mildly bitter, but never one that has no bitterness, and I mostly drink a flat white which is already complemented by a slight sweetness of the milk.
> 
> I think, much like anything, if you persevered with drinking espresso (even if you didn't like it) your tastebuds would begin to taste it differently, maybe even losing some of the bitterness. Your tastebuds get 'used' to a flavour, and it then begins to taste different, just think of spicy food!


Or your first pint of bitter!!!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

It is possible to pull shots that you could be forgiven for thinking had sugar added - intense flavour - no bitterness and definite sweet note present. Recall DFK telling me Coffeechap had shown him how to pull a 'sweet shot' - separating the beginning, middle and end parts of the shot into three glasses so as to be able to taste the differences in the three parts of the extraction. The middle part of the shot DFK pulled using Java Jampit tasted genuinely sweet - the first part of the extraction was acidic and the third - nothing really.

You can also access the sweet caramel notes by extracting above 22% but this is difficult to achieve. It's the fines present in the grind that lean a shot towards bitterness as the fines, due to their small surface area, over-extract.


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## oracleoftruth (Jan 15, 2014)

And we're back to discussing the ek43...


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MattRobbo45 said:


> Our ancestors didn't look to optimise recovery so that they could train effectively again in 24hrs and minimise micro trauma to their muscles.......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I get the theory, however since moving to a more relaxed approach to the gym , more 'normal' eating , no longer having to 'worry' about meals every 3hrs and also removing huge post-workout protein/carb drinks = end result, no difference. Deadlifts = stronger, squats = stronger , bank balance = bigger.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Back to coffee.

The aim for espresso is clarity, sweetness and balanced acidity. No need for sugar


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

As some have said as well, I don't have a sweet tooth. Only half a teaspoon. Those who have 2 teaspoons in a cup of coffee. Why??? You are just destroying the flavour of the coffee by lacing it with sugar. For my own personal taste just by putting half a teaspoon in rounds the bitterness, but without destroying the taste and flavour of the coffee. Well it works for me.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

m4lcs67 said:


> As some have said as well, I don't have a sweet tooth. Only half a teaspoon. Those who have 2 teaspoons in a cup of coffee. Why??? You are just destroying the flavour of the coffee by lacing it with sugar. For my own personal taste just by putting half a teaspoon in rounds the bitterness, but without destroying the taste and flavour of the coffee. Well it works for me.


Wait until you've got you're grinder sorted and some fresh beans dialled in correctly and see if you even need the half then.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I used to take 1 sugar in coffee but I've stopped taking sugar in coffee since I became a coffee freak.

Ruined for the better


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## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I get the theory, however since moving to a more relaxed approach to the gym , more 'normal' eating , no longer having to 'worry' about meals every 3hrs and also removing huge post-workout protein/carb drinks = end result, no difference. Deadlifts = stronger, squats = stronger , bank balance = bigger.


It's all individual at the end of the day. Far too many people train too much and eat and sleep too little. When I try and pursued clients to drop down to three sessions a week and eat more, it takes a great leap of faith for them to give it a go, because there is a culture that's been rammed down people's throats for the past 20 years that you have to starve yourself and train every day to look good.

The healthiest approach, which also provides best returns in terms of strength and how you look and most importantly health and longevity, is to train 3 times a week, lifting heavy and moderate cardio and to eat plenty of the right stuff (that includes fat - shock horror). Get 10hrs kip a night and relax. When they do finally give it a go, hey presto.... They feel amazing, their hormones balance out, they loose weight and they stop getting coughs and colds every time they do the rounds.

Here endeth my waffling.


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