# To lever or not to lever?



## theothernickh

Hi folks,

I'm new to the forum. My current setup is a gaggia classic with a eureka mignon grinder.

My taste in coffee is gravitating more towards espresso than milk based drinks.

I've been lusting after a Giotto rocket for a while and have been close to pushing the button.

But reading a few posts on here about lever machines and having a read of the londinium blog makes me think I should consider a lever machine. The simplicity and retro appeal of these machines (not to mention the espresso) really appeals.

Im interested in advice and also people's experiences of moving to lever machines from rockets, expobars etc..

many thanks!

nick


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## 4085

all you will hear, is people who own levers selling you to buy one and the same for people with pumps! Go and try one!


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## The Systemic Kid

Would be a good idea to try out a Rocket and a lever like the Londinium before committing to buying. That said, Londinium produces fantastic shots and has the big advantage in that you can alter pre-infusion time according to taste and preference. It's also very simple and easy to maintain and a joy to use and behold. Levers are very tactile beasts.


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## johnealey

If you can, arrange a visit to Bella barista who have both Rockets and levers from a couple of manufacturers and then let your own taste buds decide ( well, and your wallet....)

John


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## GCGlasgow

I have had a Classic for quite a while now and just recently got a la pavoni europicolla....I wouldn't say there's a big difference in the cup and the pavoni is messy, overheats and burns you...but there is something special about using a lever, it feels as if you are actually making the coffee and part of the process. Just my tuppence worth. As others have said maybe you should try out both the rocket and a lever.


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## theothernickh

Totally agree it's best to try machines out first hand before buying. But alas it would be a 500 mile round trip to bella barista as I'm based in Manchester. Might be worth it if I can psyche myself up for the journey though!


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## The Systemic Kid

I live not far from Madchester - if you would like a session with an L1, you're welcome.


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## Rhys

The Systemic Kid said:


> I live not far from Madchester - if you would like a session with an L1, you're welcome.


Wish I'd have known that, I had to pick our lass up from the airport the other day.. Not thinking of buying one but wouldn't mind a play with one


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## coffeechap

Take up Patrick on his offer I am sure you won't be disappointed


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## jlarkin

coffeechap said:


> Take up Patrick on his offer I am sure you won't be disappointed


Apart from potentially suddenly feeling the need to get a londinium .


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## The Systemic Kid

Rhys said:


> Wish I'd have known that, I had to pick our lass up from the airport the other day.. Not thinking of buying one but wouldn't mind a play with one


Come over anytime.


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## 4085

theothernickh said:


> Totally agree it's best to try machines out first hand before buying. But alas it would be a 500 mile round trip to bella barista as I'm based in Manchester. Might be worth it if I can psyche myself up for the journey though!


250 miles from Manchester to Northampton.......has it moved?


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## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


> 250 miles from Manchester to Northampton.......has it moved?


300 mile round trip.


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## 4085

The Systemic Kid said:


> 300 mile round trip.


Yep which is not the 500 mile trip claimed as the reason for not going!


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## johnealey

Just checked that as well thinking I had seriously misjudged the mileage too.

Think of the journey another way, you'd be well caffeinated on the way back









John


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## Rhys

The Systemic Kid said:


> Come over anytime.


Cheers, but I think I'd start totting up the prices of body-parts I could sell to buy one (and an EK) if I did..









If I'm heading that way I'll give you a shout


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## theothernickh

The Systemic Kid said:


> I live not far from Madchester - if you would like a session with an L1, you're welcome.


Wow.. Very generous offer! Would be great too see that machine in action.


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## theothernickh

Ha.. I stand corrected. I quickly pulled an Internet map up and it said 243 miles away so I doubled it.

the main problem of course would be telling the wife that I'm driving to Northampton to see a coffee machine!

I've been doing some reading on lever machines and am getting very drawn to the simplicity of the londinium 1.

its way more cash than I had dreamt of spending but in the long term it might just be the most sensible option!

patrick is a very generous for making such an offer.


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## 4085

There are alternates to Londinium, which use the same components and are a few hundred pounds less expensive


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## theothernickh

dfk41 said:


> There are alternates to Londinium, which use the same components and are a few hundred pounds less expensive


Please feel free to throw in some alternatives.

so far I'm aware of the le pavoni, Cremina and bezzera lever machines.


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## 4085

Go to the BB website, QuickMill Veloce


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## johnealey

Quick mill Veloce which was why suggested BB as an option for you to be able to try out both Rocket and levers from different manufacturers. Uses the Bosco lever group.

hope of help

John


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## theothernickh

Great. Thanks for the information. I'm going to try and see the londinium and visit BB before I make a decision.


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## Rhys

johnealey said:


> Quick mill Veloce which was why suggested BB as an option for you to be able to try out both Rocket and levers from different manufacturers. Uses the Bosco lever group.
> 
> hope of help
> 
> John


IIRC didn't @coffeechap have a Bosco? Though if memory serves it was a 2 group.

I think a spring lever would be my next upgrade.


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## Mrboots2u

Rhys said:


> IIRC didn't @coffeechap have a Bosco? Though if memory serves it was a 2 group.
> 
> I think a spring lever would be my next upgrade.


It was a one group went reiss > Coffeechap > Bubbaj

There is the profitec lever coming also


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## The Systemic Kid

johnealey said:


> Uses the Bosco lever group.


Bosco don't make groups - they buy them in. Bosco, Veloce and LI use the same group.


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## Mrboots2u

theothernickh said:


> Please feel free to throw in some alternatives.
> 
> so far I'm aware of the le pavoni, Cremina and bezzera lever machines.


Profitec

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?24759-Another-Lever-Profitec


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## coffeechap

Mrboots2u said:


> Profitec
> 
> http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?24759-Another-Lever-Profitec


Shame it is a dipper


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## coffeechap

The quickmill deal if you review at Bob is definitely worth considering, but not sure how long that machine will be around!


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## Mrboots2u

coffeechap said:


> Shame it is a dipper


It is a lever tho


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## coffeechap

Mrboots2u said:


> It is a lever tho


Yes indeed


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## johnealey

TSK correct above, apologies if offended anyone, for correction not a bosco group but the same one used by bosco, londinium and for the verona (fell foul of a popularist mistake)

John


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## 4085

coffeechap said:


> The quickmill deal if you review at Bob is definitely worth considering, but not sure how long that machine will be around!


For a bit yet! I believe something is in the air!


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## risky

coffeechap said:


> The quickmill deal if you review at Bob is definitely worth considering, but not sure how long that machine will be around!


Do you mean the deal will end or the machine will stop being available for some reason?


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## The Systemic Kid

Question is whether Quikmill are committed to the Veloce.


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## coffeechap

dfk41 said:


> For a bit yet! I believe something is in the air!


You would know


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## 4085

A lot of time and effort went into this project, i believe. I would be very surprised if it did not continue.


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## jlarkin

dfk41 said:


> For a bit yet! I believe something is in the air!


Or a V2 perhaps? I don't know just seems the other obvious possibility



risky said:


> Do you mean the deal will end or the machine will stop being available for some reason?


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## insatiableOne

GCGlasgow said:


> the pavoni is messy, overheats and burns you..


The Latest La Pavoni fixed this problem, they can stay on till the water almost runs out & will NEVER overheat. Not sure why you would torment yourself with an older model if that is a concern with the europicolla & pre-millennium models. Have heard others with the millennium no over heating issues as well.

The La Pavoni does not have a pressure relief, so removing the porta-filter early or too fast will give you the portafilter sneeze. It is not too difficult to wait a minuet & remove the basket slower and never experience this.

Good luck in your choice.


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## theothernickh

Thanks for all your input, so glad I posted on this forum.

After much mulling I decided i wanted a lever but had to be more realistic on the budget.

Got a great deal on an Elektra Micro Casa and its being delivered on Saturday so exciting times ahead!

although of course I'm now thinking all the cash I saved by not getting a more expensive machine should be spent on a grinder... Here we go again...


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## "coffee 4/1"

hope the Mcal is good and clean with 25mm depth basket, you need to go fine on grind, or it's gushers.


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## insatiableOne

theothernickh said:


> Got a great deal on an Elektra Micro Casa and its being delivered on Saturday so exciting times ahead!
> 
> although of course I'm now thinking all the cash I saved by not getting a more expensive machine should be spent on a grinder... Here we go again...


My experience has been that the entry model grinders may not grind fine enough. Say nothing below a Rocky or Mazzer at minimum.


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## theothernickh

Yes.. Thanks guys. I'm on it!


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## Rhys

I noticed that I had to grind slightly finer when going from a Classic to the La Pavoni.


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## theothernickh

Thanks Rhys. Probably a similar move I'm making. The seller is dropping the machine around to my house today. It's one month old. A steep learned my curve ahead I think! Although the wife has said she'll buy me a barista course for Christmas! Definately looking to to upgrade the grinder now. Probably spend mor on the grinder than the machine!


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## The Systemic Kid

Rhys said:


> I noticed that I had to grind slightly finer when going from a Classic to the La Pavoni.


Lever lore: grind finer, tamp lighter


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## h1udd

It's a pain having to redial in the grinder when switching between lever and pump ... I ended up buying another grinder ... Went for a hand grinder ... By the time you grind your second shot, the la pav has de pressured enough to not sneeze on you and I have massive biceps


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## insatiableOne

The Systemic Kid said:


> Lever lore: grind finer, tamp lighter


↑↑↑ This... over time I have gone down three whole numbers on my grinder & just use the weight of my tamper.

But....................pull that lever up slowly just → as the water enters, or you might just fracture that puck!


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## theothernickh

Insatiable one: I THINK I understand what you're saying!

machine arrived today. Bit of a blow though. My tamper is too big. Aaaargh.


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## insatiableOne

theothernickh said:


> Insatiable one: I THINK I understand what you're saying!
> 
> machine arrived today. Bit of a blow though. My tamper is too big. Aaaargh.


Don't sweat it..just tap the basket on the counter while rotating, after leveling grounds, then use the plastic toy they give you to lightly even the top. (You really do not use much pressure for tamping on a lever) some people don't really tamp at all. Just don't push the grounds down too hard.

#1)The main thing is to do the same thing time & time again.

#2)only change one variable at a time

#3)Levers have a steep learning curve, you are not going to make good shots for a while..just deal with it. Try to make drinkable shots.

Just remember this

Grind until you start to choke the machine → then adjust your tamp →pull the lever up..then slow at the top → then do a four to eh, six second pre-infusion (let the water sit before pulling down) → don't pull too fast! you want a fine pencil size thick ribbon & keep it there → when you hear the basket flash boil or just before the foam drops →end the shot.

I use a small bowl put under my machine on top of the drip tray, keeps the mess down. (remove demitasse while sliding ceramic bowl under) makes life easier!

I'm certain could have added others, just a starting point. Don't want you to do too much off the bat.

Oh...shot taste sour..grind finer

shot taste bitter, grind coarser

too bold dose less


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## theothernickh

Valuable information. Thanks so much for that!

The previous owner kindly showed me the basics when he dropped it off.

Not expecting too much in the short term. Just experiments.


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