# Sage Dual Boiler espresso - a lot of variables!



## Ragley (Sep 1, 2014)

Upgraded from an ageing unmodded Gaggia Classic to the Sage DB primarily because my wife likes flat whites.

I drink espresso, especially fruity single origin light roasts, which I buy from Rave. With the Classic, as long as I pulled the shots before steaming milk, I could usually make intense punchy espressos, 18g in, 28g out in about 30 seconds, just adjusting the grind to hit the spot I wanted.

Found that a whole lot trickier with the DB. 18g/28g/30 second shots were thin and bland. Grinding finer increased extraction time but still I was missing the fruity, floral notes I love. Read a bunch of stuff online and adjusted the pre-infusion. Default setting was 7 seconds and about 1 bar, which then ramped up to the machine's standard 9.5/10 bar. I'm now at 4/5 bar (it varies during the extraction) and 30 seconds pre-infusion and getting a good shot in about 35 seconds.

But I reckon I can do better. So next I'm thinking about further increasing the pre-infusion so the whole shot is at 4/5 bar. But I can also adjust brew temperature from the default 93ºC.

Which variable would you change next? Why? How are brew pressure and temperature linked? Any pointers welcome!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Have you tired a different brew ratio to the one you mention. Before thinking of anything else examine how the relation of coffee to water changes the taste.

I'd be starting at a 1:3 ratio, taste adjust if required.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Pre infusion and temp are nice to play around wiht but your really dancing round the edges of what they deliver in the cup, especially if you haven't got to a tasty place wiht your brew ratio.


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## tobyjrn6 (Dec 22, 2016)

I have to say i fell into a trap of brewing too short for a while and upping my brew ratio to nearer 1:2.5 really helps bring out more fruity characteristics for the most part


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Brew water pressure and temperature are not linked. You like what you were getting from the Gaggia so stick with the same grind. If you can adjust the Sage pressure and temperature to what is on the Gaggia, then you should be getting what you are after. Adjust the pressure first if you have the means to measure or go by the flow.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

On the Sage, by extending the preinfusion time to 60 seconds then dropping the pump pressure, you can pull 5 to 6 bar shots. I found fruit where there should not have been fruit! If this is what you have been doing, fine.....if not when I am on the pc tomorrow I will dig the thread out that explains this


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Nikko said:


> Brew water pressure and temperature are not linked. You like what you were getting from the Gaggia so stick with the same grind. If you can adjust the Sage pressure and temperature to what is on the Gaggia, then you should be getting what you are after. Adjust the pressure first if you have the means to measure or go by the flow.


Considering there's no mention of the OP using the same basket in both machines (which is possible since they've the same size portafilter), it's a fairly safe assumption different ones are in use. Therefore the grind would need adjusting to get a similar result.


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## Ragley (Sep 1, 2014)

Thanks for the advice!

Been a bit busy, but I have been playing around with ins and outs. I tried increasing the brew ratio, but found I lost some of the punch I was looking for. And I've always preferred really short espressos. Swapping the baskets didn't make much difference.

Overall, I've become slowly more disgruntled with my Sage DB shots. They're a bit bland.

I started wondering: was I really getting a better shot with my old Gaggia? Luckily, I still have it, so this morning, I rescued it from the garage, brewed some shots and did some tasting.

Turns out, I do prefer the Gaggia shots. There is a punchy fruitiness that I really like. I noticed that the crema from the Gaggia has dark, specks at the edges and a greater mix of colours. The taste is cleaner and more acidic. The Sage DB crema is much more uniform light brown. There is some fruit but underneath there is a muddy blandness.

The Gaggia seems hot and doesn't have pre-infusion. So I increased the Sage DB brew temperature to the maximum 97C and reduced the pre-infusion time. This added some acidity. The overall crema was darker, but without much variation. But still there was a muddy taste underneath.

Any advice for punchier, cleaner taste with light roasts is welcome.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

What are your pucks like on the DB, dry, wet, knock out easily, hard or leave lots behind etc ? I found getting fill levels a "bit" of a pain on the DB. You mention a muddy taste which make me wonder if you need to add more coffee.

Dfk mentions 6 bar brewing. It's pretty simple. Up the infusion time to max and then grind for the brew pressure you want and some ratio via changing time. I've stayed away from that as more variables to play with.

I adjusted my infusion to 10 secs mainly because that is what I am used to on the BE. I expect flow to start at 6 sec or more depending on bean and a pressure reading of 4 or 5 bar or so at that point. What I found tough on the DB was down to the fact that it can produce neatish looking pucks when there isn't enough being put into the basket. Taste could vary and get muddy. It seems I am not the only one that has problems with pucks sticking to the shower screen. Might be a useful guide. It's possible to work with a weight just short of where it sticks or a higher one within limits. Too much and strength will drop off. Unfortunately the DB razor tool hasn't been too good a guide for me but it might be worth you trying it,

John

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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I wouldn't worry too much about the pucks... they tell you very little about the brew process and can vary significantly from one coffee to the next regardless of if they are brewed perfectly.

Have you tried the DB with the preinfusion set to zero to emulate what the Classic is doing?


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## Beeroclock (Aug 10, 2015)

Have you tried 19g instead of 18g in the sage double?


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