# EK43 shot prep video



## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

Hey Mr Boots, this is the way I typically make espresso with the EK43 grinder. The shot was light in body, nice and sweet. Extraction yield was 23% with moisture and CO2 set to my usual zero; using the VST defaults of 3.0% and 0.5%, the EY would be about 23.8%..


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ill try and make a similar attempt , thanks Andy !

How do i calibrate my spoon? *


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Thanks for posting this


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Thanks for taking the time to make it tho


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> How do i calibrate my spoon? *


I guess that will have to be the subject of another video. hahaha!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I wonder if Starbucks could incorporate some of this into their 20 second routine?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Thanks Andy, love the video, it's great to get a insight into how others prep EK shots









Love the addition of the aeropress paper. I had a similar experience when messing with my batch brewer, if I used the basket filter then EY was lower than when using a paper filter.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

very rare EK43 model


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Boots let's see your sticker


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ill try and make a similar attempt , thanks Andy !
> 
> How do i calibrate my spoon? *


with a refractometer???


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

AndyS said:


> very rare EK43 model
> 
> View attachment 19445


Who's Scott Rao??


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Minimal tamp pressure - reassuring.


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

If any of my friends call me insane about coffee I can now show them this video and your shot log! Impressed with your commitment to perfection and improvement. Good work!!!


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

P.s. Nice video.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Calibrated spoons are what they use to make McFlurrys, eh?


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

@AndyS does the Aeropress paper increase extraction by creating greater resistance in the basket and thereby slowing the shot down and increasing contact time?


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Who's Scott Rao??


wasnt he chachi in happy days and married Joani ?


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

risky said:


> @AndyS does the Aeropress paper increase extraction by creating greater resistance in the basket and thereby slowing the shot down and increasing contact time?


No, IIRC shot time is a little less.

The paper prevents holes from clogging. It also may have some more subtle effects, like evening out the flow of water through the coffee cake at the bottom of the basket.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Very interesting Andy, thanks!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

AndyS said:


> No, IIRC shot time is a little less.
> 
> The paper prevents holes from clogging. It also may have some more subtle effects, like evening out the flow of water through the coffee cake at the bottom of the basket.


Maybe the paper is holding back some non-dissolved solids, this may be enough to push up EY for a given shot mass?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ill try and make a similar attempt , thanks Andy !
> 
> How do i calibrate my spoon? *


Is this the rusty spoon of truth?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

?


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

Thought I'd give this video thing a bash. It's certainly not my best pour, in fact, it's far from it. I was to pre-occupied with the phone not falling off of my head. The camera angle unfortunately isn't the best...I might try it sitting down next time. At 6'5" I get some what of a 'birds eye view' of everything.

Only thing I prefer with my method over the OP's is my use of a 125ml shot measure rather than the cocktail shaker:jam funnel combo.

NB I weight input, didn't weight output. Wasn't checking temp. Used a cold cup. All was a bit rushed as I didn't realise I was out of cups (school boy error).

This was 16g into a (eBay sourced) La Marzocco 14g basket. I find 14g = spray everywhere when using a bottomless PF, but 16g is ok. Cant seem to slow the shot enough even when grinding on zero (by which I mean the image below the 1 on the EK) - still playing with this - maybe this could be set tighter? - I'll look for some 'gumph' to read on this as it's still new to me.

Tamper is one sourced from China - perfect fit. It's stamped as 58,5mm, though I haven't measured this myself (it fits so I don't really care tbh) - It also only cost £0 (yes zero - as I bought two, sold one, which paid for mine inc all postage etc) - I personally cont believe people pay so much for machined metal as they do - especially as all the expensive ones i've come across do not fit as well as this. Each to their own I guess. I'm sure I've made this point before.

Video is not edited.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hi bongo - what are you are you basing stopping the shot on ? Time ? Colour?

How do you know it's too fast?

Weight out . Brew ratios are longer with an Ek to hit tasty , at the moment you don't know what your brew ratio is

2g either of a shot in weight out makes a massive difference

Try aiming for 1:2.5 minimum plus brew ratio and work on the distribution in the pf


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

You need to weigh output. Also 16g might not be a high enough dose to slow flow sufficiently.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Agree with @jeebsy unless you can adjust pressure is be at 18g dose minimum


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

@Mrboots2u

I base that opinion on a few things. Time is one, I normally time shots - less so if i'm adding milk.

Colour plays a part - i.e., it comes through so fast some times is looks like water! (not quite but you get the idea)

Often just taste. My interpretation being the sourness (which isn't that bad, but is present) is from to quick a pour.

As I say I'm new to the grinder and finding it really hit and miss. The good thing is the misses have still been drinkable, so I'm not far off.

Generally running on 1: 2.5 ratio, so approximately 14g : 36g. I find 16g into 36g better which is 1 : 2.25

Welcome input though....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Until you start weighing out it will be hit and miss and to be honest , doesn't give any of us the language or data to help you with it ...

Using blonding with an EK is a path to frustration with an EK ( even more so that a traditional grinder )

There is some re learning to be done , and you may need to change your processes to get to the best the grinder can offer , there is a ton of info in here and other places ( barista hustle, slack , home barista ) re the EK43 , all of it refers to accurate BR and weighing, i am unsaware of anyone using it for espresso without scales . If you can manage it all power to you ...

Without low pressure, or a change in giglicur i suspect your dose is too low also. @jeebsy @Xpenno @The Systemic Kid @garydyke1 @AndyS can help from here on in perhaps, there is a ton of people who have gone through the pain of working ways to get the best from the EK.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

@Mrboots2u

That's pretty much what I've read / heard. I haven't had the time since it's delivery (due to work) to really invest any real play time, unfortunately. As I say, What I'm getting is consistently 'drinkable' which makes me happy. With the odd 'hmmmmm' shot....

I think once I've given a good bit of time to it I would come back to the table...

Since buying it I've been wondering about pressure differences... But as I say, no time atm so worry too much about it. Thanks for the head up though!


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

@bongo great work on your video. I'm new to the EK myself so I'm on the same exciting part of the coffee journey as you! I'm so jealous of the EK43LE though, I'm already planning cutting mine down to have a bodged version! I like your idea of using the 125ml shot measure to transfer from the grinder direct to the portafilter. Spent ages yesterday looking for something just like that so have just put an order in for one.

I have read a lot about the EK and it seems that weighing out is pretty essential with it. The opinion all over the various forums is that a high output ratio of at least 1:2.5 is advisable. I actually came across barista hustle only a few days ago which is run my matt merger. It's full of really interesting tips on coffee prep and he largely uses an EK43 when applying all of the info so I would strongly agree with @Mrboots2u that it is a great resource. Anyway good luck and keep up the good work.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

With lighter/medium roasts which are my preference, I never go below 1:2. EK requires consistent and reasonably rigorous barista technique to get the best out of it but the results are worth it. No sour shots and nicely tamed acidity - even with Kenyan beans.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Don't think I've ever gone below 20>45 but might need to try it to see what happens


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## AMCD300 (Feb 11, 2016)

AndyS said:


> Hey Mr Boots, this is the way I typically make espresso with the EK43 grinder. The shot was light in body, nice and sweet. Extraction yield was 23% with moisture and CO2 set to my usual zero; using the VST defaults of 3.0% and 0.5%, the EY would be about 23.8%..


Andy - thanks, this is an excellent video. Some 'greenhorn' comments if I may:

1. What made you move to adding paper filters to your PF basket?

2. I love your brew diary...I couldn't see clearly from the video but what factors do you record? Dose, in/out times and tasting notes or more...?

3. I would love to have seen a photo of you with an iPhone attached to your head with rubber bands. That's taking one for the team!!!









4. Love the setup...

Thanks again.


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

@AndyS I am very curious also about this PF filter technique. Where did you get this from? You say it increases the extraction yield that you produce then right? Does it negatively affect anything? It was difficult to tell from the video but was the shot relatively low on crema and is this an effect of the filters?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

alexferdi said:


> @AndyS I am very curious also about this PF filter technique. Where did you get this from? You say it increases the extraction yield that you produce then right? Does it negatively affect anything? It was difficult to tell from the video but was the shot relatively low on crema and is this an effect of the filters?


1 It's a yirg - not the biggest crema makers in the world and a " drip roast " to boot

C. Crema - pah .... Means nothing , plus you know once the " calibrated spoon " has got to it does crema indicate anything - it's been " calibrated "

3. Long brew ratios at 1:3 your getting a dilute sweet clear shot again this could impact crema per se , again crema doesn't taste nice ..

4 crema pah







if you want crema get a robusta blend and or a darker roast


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

From AndyS previous comment the aeropress stops the holes in the basket clogging. This in turn allows you to grind finer without choking thus extract more.


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> 1 It's a yirg - not the biggest crema makes in the world and a " drip roast " to boot
> 
> C. Crema - pah .... Means nothing , plus you know once the " calibrated spoon " has got to it does crema indicate anything - it's been " calibrated "
> 
> ...


Yeah I've heard all the stuff about crema not being important but I was just using it as a speculative example of a negative of this filter paper technique. Is this a widely used technique? Quick google hasn't brought up much.

I saw one person mention a cleaner sweeter shot but with less body and mouth feel. This seems to be the general direction people are moving towards to try and achieve with grinders like the EK and pushing extraction yields so is this a useful technique to that end?


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

alexferdi said:


> I have read a lot about the EK and it seems that weighing out is pretty essential with it.


Weighing out is essential full stop! Doesn't matter what grinder you're using.


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

risky said:


> Weighing out is essential full stop! Doesn't matter what grinder you're using.


Yes that's true of course but I just mean it's even more relevant with the EK as experimenting with unusual yield ratios is important to get the most out of it.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

alexferdi said:


> Yeah I've heard all the stuff about crema not being important but I was just using it as a speculative example of a negative of this filter paper technique. Is this a widely used technique? Quick google hasn't brought up much.
> 
> I saw one person mention a cleaner sweeter shot but with less body and mouth feel. This seems to be the general direction people are moving towards to try and achieve with grinders like the EK and pushing extraction yields so is this a useful technique to that end?


I get a load of crema using the filter paper. Depends on water, beans, age, roast development etc.... I wouldn't worry about it. Try tasting it on its own and then tell me you are bothered about getting lots of it on your shot


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

risky said:


> Weighing out is essential full stop! Doesn't matter what grinder you're using.


This x1000


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

alexferdi said:


> Yeah I've heard all the stuff about crema not being important but I was just using it as a speculative example of a negative of this filter paper technique. Is this a widely used technique? Quick google hasn't brought up much.
> 
> I saw one person mention a cleaner sweeter shot but with less body and mouth feel. This seems to be the general direction people are moving towards to try and achieve with grinders like the EK and pushing extraction yields so is this a useful technique to that end?


Need to do more Aeropress shots to give an opinion . Longer brew ratios allows you to get higher extraction yields , it's matching the BR with a grinder capable of giving you a grind and a coffee well roasted that will deliver sweet and tasty at these BR's and extraction yields without going into untasty and over extracted .


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

Xpenno said:


> I get a load of crema using the filter paper. Depends on water, beans, age, roast development etc.... I wouldn't worry about it. Try tasting it on its own and then tell me you are bothered about getting lots of it on your shot


Oh god it's sounding like I've started up some real crema bashing!

Like I said I'm not bothered about crema but I'm just asking if this is a commonly used technique and do others find it aids higher extraction yields. I've never heard of it before.


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Interesting idea.

I just tried the aeropress paper in VST 18.

19g Workshop Loma Ancha Sugarcane Decaf.

38g in 21sec.

Very nice !

Seems to taste a lot cleaner, a better balance of sweet and brightness.

Thanks AndyS for the tip.

PS Xpenno, I think it is hard to choke an espresso machine with Ek43 & Coffee Burrs.

Cheers

-JKK


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Need to do more Aeropress shots to give an opinion . Longer brew ratios allows you to get higher extraction yields , it's matching the BR with a grinder capable of giving you a grind and a coffee well roasted that will deliver sweet and tasty at these BR's and extraction yields without going into untasty and over extracted .


I've got an EK so should be capable of the high yield ratio. I take it you don't routinely use an aero press filter at the bottom of the PF like Andy does then? As people are all commenting crema isn't very nice tasting so would it remove some of this and improve the shot that way?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

alexferdi said:


> Oh god it's sounding like I've started up some real crema bashing!
> 
> Like I said I'm not bothered about crema but I'm just asking if this is a commonly used technique and do others find it aids higher extraction yields. I've never heard of it before.


Not having a go mate. I'm my experience this method doesn't really affect amount of crema. It does seem to result in a lighter bodied shot.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

alexferdi said:


> I'm just asking if this is a commonly used technique and do others find it aids higher extraction yields. I've never heard of it before.


It's not common as far as I know. I'd never heard of it before this video. Further testing needs to be done by EK owners to determine if you get higher EY, but if AndyS says you do I have no reason to doubt him, that man knows his stuff.

Andy says it helps by preventing clogging and improving water flow especially around the bottom of the puck. What effect it has one the crema I couldn't say.


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

JKK said:


> Interesting idea.
> 
> I just tried the aeropress paper in VST 18.
> 
> ...


Interesting to hear you've tried this. I need to do the same.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

alexferdi said:


> I've got an EK so should be capable of the high yield ratio. I take it you don't routinely use an aero press filter at the bottom of the PF like Andy does then? As people are all commenting crema isn't very nice tasting so would it remove some of this and improve the shot that way?


AndyS is a bit of a legend when it comes to coffee, based on his previous work around modern coffee making I would guess that he came up with this method.. I know Garydyke1 did it for a short while ages ago but it's the first time I've seen it used routinely. Been messing myself today and results have been good. Too early to say for sure.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Although it is a non issue as those who use a filter don't seem to think it affects cream. To dismiss the question would be a mistake. Lack of crema may be good or may be bad or may make no difference at all.

Sure Crema tastes bad but what if a reduction in crema meant that some of that taste was ending up in the drink.

All hypothetical, but as I said, dismissing the idea is a little hasty. It seems as manufacturers use crema and pressurised PF's to sell coffee to the masses it gets quickly dismissed as a bad way to judge anything, when it could certainly be an indication of a changing flavour profile.


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

Xpenno said:


> Not having a go mate. I'm my experience this method doesn't really affect amount of crema. It does seem to result in a lighter bodied shot.


No worries i know no ones having a go.

I'm very interested by this technique. I'm new to the EK so unfortunately I wouldn't be able to give a worthwhile opinion yet. Why don't other try this and see what they think?

Does anyone else have a refractometer? Would be nice to corroborate any increased extraction yield findings.

Do people find that this method alters the grind fineness required for a shot? Matt perger talks about the "point of diminishing returns" of grind fineness and worsening extraction. Do you think this would alter this? Any chance of being able to grind even finer and increase EY?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

JKK said:


> PS Xpenno, I think it is hard to choke an espresso machine with Ek43 & Coffee Burrs.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> -JKK


You're not trying hard enough then







I can choke my machine and get 60+ shots not that I try to of course.. I'm on the newer coffee burrs which might help.. It's not too difficult though.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Anyway Ek shot clips are good to see - let's see more from people


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

alexferdi said:


> Oh god it's sounding like I've started up some real crema bashing!
> 
> Like I said I'm not bothered about crema but I'm just asking if this is a commonly used technique and do others find it aids higher extraction yields. I've never heard of it before.


Sang Ho Park blogged about it some years ago...scroll down to "Pucking Fresh Coffee".

http://www.koreanbarista.com/


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> You're not trying hard enough then
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Believe me I have been trying hard for over a year !

I do have the new coffee burrs.

But I see you have a Vesuvius which perhaps can opperate at lower flow rates than

my humble Expobar DB.

Recenlty I have been adjusting burr parallelism, after reading about the 'soy saucer marker' technique,

with a small improvement.

-JKK


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

alexferdi said:


> No worries i know no ones having a go.
> 
> I'm very interested by this technique. I'm new to the EK so unfortunately I wouldn't be able to give a worthwhile opinion yet. Why don't other try this and see what they think?
> 
> ...


So one reason for the diminishing returns could be choking on the basket and this method may unlock this avenue. As I said I can grind significantly finer with no ill effects. In fact the opposite it true, finer now actually keeps increasing EY, there maybe a new limit though.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

JKK said:


> Believe me I have been trying hard for over a year !
> 
> I do have the new coffee burrs.
> 
> ...


Sounds interesting, do you have a link. I used a whiteboard marker to align my burrs up for potentially improving on this though









Probably pressure related. At 9bar my machine would choke and then channel like a mutha. I'll give it a go in a bit. It might also be down to poor distribution. I run 6bar these days.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

JKK said:


> Believe me I have been trying hard for over a year !
> 
> I do have the new coffee burrs.
> 
> ...


 @jeebsy has same machine and older burrs

Choking a machine with grind shouldn't be an aspiration


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

Xpenno said:


> So one reason for the diminishing returns could be choking on the basket and this method may unlock this avenue. As I said I can grind significantly finer with no ill effects. In fact the opposite it true, finer now actually keeps increasing EY, there maybe a new limit though.


Yes I had heard Matt perger talk about that being one of the reasons which is why I had questioned that point changing. I'd be interested to hear his thoughts on this.

Anyone else got any experience?

What filters have people used? Filter or aero press? I don't drink any other kind of coffee than espresso. Anyone have any thoughts on which would be more effective. Aero press works under pressure right so maybe it would be more suited to espresso filtering?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Anyway Ek shot clips are good to see - let's see more from people


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> Sounds interesting, do you have a link. I used a whiteboard marker to align my burrs up for potentially improving on this though
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi

I couldnt wait for the sauce to dry, and opted for a Pocca marker pen. [Acetone for removal tho ! ouch]

Here is a link for the Soy Sauce version:


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/Coffee/comments/3cu1mc



> @jeebsy has same machine and older burrs
> 
> Choking a machine with grind shouldn't be an aspiration


Sure but, it's a bit limiting having to grind everything at 1.0 !

-JKK


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

jeebsy said:


>


Marvellous


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

JKK said:


> Hi
> 
> I couldnt wait for the sauce to dry, and opted for a Pocca marker pen. [Acetone for removal tho ! ouch]
> 
> ...


I'm grinding at 2-3 for 2.5ish out in 25-32 secs


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> I'm grinding at 2-3 for 2.5ish out in 25-32 secs


Wow !

Original dial ?

I can only dream of such heady numbers 

At those numbers, the shot flows out without

the machine having time to get up to 8bar.

I follow all the rules on shot prep :

- grind into jug

- jam funnel into VST

- NSEW distribution with leveling tap

- heavy tamp, with medium nutate.

- weigh in & out.

Any tips would be welcome.

-JKK


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

3fe dial


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> 3fe dial


Come again?


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> 3fe dial


What is 2.5 3fe in Old Dial money ?

I cant find the Facebook Dial converter any more.

-JKK


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

JKK said:


> Hi
> 
> I couldnt wait for the sauce to dry, and opted for a Pocca marker pen. [Acetone for removal tho ! ouch]
> 
> ...


That what Andy is doing in his clip .

Grinding at one I mean


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> That what Andy is doing in his clip .
> 
> Grinding at one I mean


True.

Maybe I have the old burrs afterall:-









-JKK


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

So Round 2...

16.11g in.

Ground @ #1 (original setting as delivered to me)

40g out in 32s (41.69 out after the dribble - could have used a spoon to stop this but not too fussed)

Ratio 1 : 2.5

Great mouthfeel. Tasted on the bitter side. Will try again @ #1.2 in 30mins or so... hopefully increase the sweetness..

Better camera control. Actually had to sit for this. Felt like I was staring at the floor! haha.... certainly not going to quit the day job...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What was the coffee out of interest


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I generally don't like going over 30 secs, 26ish is my sweet spot


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> What was the coffee out of interest


HasBean's, La Linda, Bolivia, Mechanically washed, Red Caturra. Roasted 12th Feb.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> I generally don't like going over 30 secs, 26ish is my sweet spot


From my experience so far, I'd agree...


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

bongo said:


> HasBean's, La Linda, Bolivia, Mechanically washed, Red Caturra. Roasted 12th Feb.


Never stop looking, never stop looking la linda


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Time > depends on the variables available to you to adjust > pre infusion > low pressure have had 45 second plus shots at nom


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

JKK said:


> True.
> 
> Maybe I have the old burrs afterall:-
> 
> ...


You got any more pics of those burrs?

Here is a shot on zero with Has Bean Tiera from a couple of weeks back....











I never try and choke my machine so this is just to show that it's possible. This was 18g in 18g VST, ground at zero (1), The Corrs on the stereo, my standard distribution/tamp etc... Vesuvius was set at 9b (I usually go for 6b with some pre-infusion).


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> You got any more pics of those burrs?
> 
> Here is a shot on zero with Has Bean Tiera from a couple of weeks back....


Hello

Sorry only this pic from the joyless task of the burr aligment procedure.









Serial no. is 54xx so in theory new burrs, certainly has the non-chamferred outer

edge of new burrs.

-JKK


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Yeah I would expect new burrs in there. From that first pic it looked like one of the edges was flattened off. I know a lot of burrs had these scars but that one looked like it had a flat edge.

One thing on the alignment, it's more accurate to use the inner circle on the carrier to align.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

AMCD300 said:


> 1. What made you move to adding paper filters to your PF basket?
> 
> 2. I love your brew diary...I couldn't see clearly from the video but what factors do you record? Dose, in/out times and tasting notes or more...?
> 
> 3. I would love to have seen a photo of you with an iPhone attached to your head with rubber bands. That's taking one for the team!!!


1. I originally started doing it because my blood cholesterol was high. Supposedly there are oils in metal-filtered coffee that can raise cholesterol. I thought the paper might absorb the oils. Further blood tests didn't confirm the positive effect. But meanwhile, I was very surprised to see the extraction yield go up.

2. Brew diary basically has type of coffee, brew temperature, dose, preinfusion time, total time, beverage weight, measured TDS, calculated extraction yield, tasting notes.

3. Once seen, it would be very hard to un-see! 



alexferdi said:


> I am very curious also about this PF filter technique. Where did you get this from? You say it increases the extraction yield that you produce then right? Does it negatively affect anything? It was difficult to tell from the video but was the shot relatively low on crema and is this an effect of the filters?


Various people have experimented (for various reasons) with paper in the bottom of the filter basket before I tried it. So the technique is certainly not original with me. As far as I know, though, no one has previously commented about an increase in extraction yield.

Some of the fines that produce interesting patterns on the crema surface are removed. So the espresso looks a little boring when compared with beautiful tiger-striped shots. I think the amount of crema is about the same. Also, some people (like Mark Prince at Coffeegeek.com) place a very high value on the taste of the coffee oils that I am trying to remove. So this technique would not be for them.


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> Yeah I would expect new burrs in there. From that first pic it looked like one of the edges was flattened off. I know a lot of burrs had these scars but that one looked like it had a flat edge.
> 
> One thing on the alignment, it's more accurate to use the inner circle on the carrier to align.


On the first pic, you mean the bright area around 10 oclock ?

Yes I did wonder about the acuracy of aligment using the sweepers.

I will try again with central alightment, makes more sense.

-JKK


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I don't think they are the new burrs, they are the same batch as the others that were bought on the forum group buy I believe


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

JKK said:


> On the first pic, you mean the bright area around 10 oclock ?
> 
> Yes I did wonder about the acuracy of aligment using the sweepers.
> 
> ...


Nah the darker area in the bottom right of the pic. My burrs were similar but they look almost flat along that side.


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

AndyS said:


> 1. I originally started doing it because my blood cholesterol was high. Supposedly there are oils in metal-filtered coffee that can raise cholesterol. I thought the paper might absorb the oils. Further blood tests didn't confirm the positive effect. But meanwhile, I was very surprised to see the extraction yield go up.
> 
> 2. Brew diary basically has type of coffee, brew temperature, dose, preinfusion time, total time, beverage weight, measured TDS, calculated extraction yield, tasting notes.
> 
> ...


Interesting. How do you personally rate the taste?


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Maybe the paper is holding back some non-dissolved solids, this may be enough to push up EY for a given shot mass?


Very interesting question, thanks Mark! There are various ways at evaluating this. Here is one:

Consider this hypothetical *Aeropress-filtered shot:*

18g dry, 54g wet, measuring 7.67 %TDS.

*7.67 %TDS x 54g = 4.14 gTDS / 18g = 23.01% Extraction Yield*

Meanwhile, the only reference I could find for the ratio of TDS to TBS (Total Brew Solids - dissolved and undissolved) was in Illy's book. He says 90% of TBS is TDS.

If we assume another hypothetical shot, similar to the first, but *without the filter:*

4.14 gTDS / 90% = 4.6 gTBS.

4.6g - 4.14g = 0.46g undissolved solids. These are not filtered out in this shot, so they end up in the cup.

54g + 0.46g = 54.46g wet

The measured (filtered) TDS will be the same, so when we make a parallel calculation:

*7.67 %TDS x 54.46g = 4.18 gTDS / 18g = 23.21% Extraction Yield*

In practice, the thin Aeropress disk doesn't filter out all the undissolved solids, especially at espresso pressures. So the difference between the two shots is undoubtedly less than this. So I may be missing something, but I think the two measurements will be so close it would be difficult to see a replicable difference.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

alexferdi said:


> Interesting. How do you personally rate the taste?


I like the cleaner filtered shots. YMMV.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

AndyS said:


> I like the cleaner filtered shots. YMMV.


Even if you take the fact that its cleaner and perhaps lighter out of the equation then the fact that you can drive up EY brings so much more to the party imho!!


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> I don't think they are the new burrs, they are the same batch as the others that were bought on the forum group buy I believe


oh dear . . .



Xpenno said:


> Nah the darker area in the bottom right of the pic. My burrs were similar but they look almost flat along that side.


The dark patch is the outer edge of the bur casting.









The surface at the edges is flat.

The only difference I can see between new and old judging by Gary's Grindscience pics

is the cutting blades on the two full length sections of the burrs, are much more

bunched up on the new burrs.

Also the edges on the old ones appear slightly shamfered, but maybe thats wear.

PS Sorry to divert the thread Andys.

-JKK


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

JKK said:


> oh dear . . .
> 
> The dark patch is the outer edge of the bur casting.
> 
> ...


It's probably just the angle in the photo making them look slightly non-circular.


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

Don't mean to divert the thread off but thought this was a great collection of people wise with an EK43! Had a good hunt around but can't find anything on how to check and adjust the burr alignment on the EK. Can anyone tell me how to do this?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

alexferdi said:


> Don't mean to divert the thread off but thought this was a great collection of people wise with an EK43! Had a good hunt around but can't find anything on how to check and adjust the burr alignment on the EK. Can anyone tell me how to do this?


Alex I think you're on the Matt Perger slack now. If no luck here or for additional chances of info, Try searching in grinding and if no luck ask there as well, they have a couple of mahlkoenig guys on there as well as some others that talked about alignment extensively.


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

jlarkin said:


> Alex I think you're on the Matt Perger slack now. If no luck here or for additional chances of info, Try searching in grinding and if no luck ask there as well, they have a couple of mahlkoenig guys on there as well as some others that talked about alignment extensively.


Cheers for the tip. I'll check it out


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

http://www.grindscience.com/2016/02/aligning-my-ek43-burrs-hopefully-part-1/


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

AndyS said:


> Very interesting question, thanks Mark! There are various ways at evaluating this. Here is one:
> 
> Consider this hypothetical *Aeropress-filtered shot:*
> 
> ...


Hi Andy,

I think once we make the assumption that TDS won't change with the filtered shot, we're on route to a self-fulfilling prophecy? 

If we have 0.46g of hypothetical undissolved solids in the unfiltered 54.0g shot, then we only need to convert a third of that to TDS, to turn 23%EY to 23.75%EY (4.275g of filtered shot TDS - 4.14g = 0.135g additional & 93% of TBS are now TDS). If we work it backwards from a 54.0g & 23%EY filtered shot & drop EY to 22.25% for the unfiltered shot, that's 4.005g of TDS & 91% of TBS as TDS. Doesn't seem beyond reason?

The shot should weigh the same in both examples, as that is the point that the shot is killed, just a proportion of NDS are exchanged for TDS in the filtered shot.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

MWJB said:


> If we have 0.46g of hypothetical undissolved solids in the unfiltered 54.0g shot, then we only need to convert a third of that to TDS, to turn 23%EY to 23.75%EY .


True, but I assume they are undissolved solids for a reason -- they are insoluble. How do you "convert" insoluble cell walls into dissolved solids?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

AndyS said:


> True, but I assume they are undissolved solids for a reason -- they are insoluble. How do you "convert" insoluble cell walls into dissolved solids?


Good point, perhaps "replace" would have been a better phrase, but even so, we don't know how much soluble material they contain. Perhaps they're not necessarily insoluble, may as yet be under-extracted (beyond the point of diminishing returns grind-wise)? If they have merely passed through the filter, within the flow of liquid, they may not be fully percolated, just immersed/trapped within lipids? Being restrained in the puck, by the filter paper & flushed through, may see them more fully extracted?

According to Lockhart, whilst some coffees contained less than 30% solubles, others were in excess of this, so even at 23%EY (even though this is an average accross the puck & some particles will be extracted to a higher degree than this) there is still perhaps soluble material available? We typically assume that the majority of this will be in the boulders & median range, there may yet be some at the finer end of the spectrum too?


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Well to pick up on Mark's last point about these 'ultra fines' if you will. Andy I notice you giving the beans a quick spritz. How long have you been doing RDT and what benefits have you noticed?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

A couple of observations from my perspective on this.

From my tests adding the aeropress filter has the following effect

1. Speeds up the shot for any given grinder setting/coffee

2. Seems to promote a more even flow from the bottom of the basket

I would guess that what's happening here is that the filter paper helps increase the evenness of the water flow through the puck (possibly by stopping the holes in the basket from blocking with fines and choking the flow). This results in the faster pour. In my case to counter act this I grind finer to slow the shot back down again. This would increase the surface area of the ground coffee and theoretically (all other variables the same) result in a higher EY (within reason).

I'd also guess that the basket holes blocking could be one of the reasons that once you get to a certain grind setting on the EK43 the basket chokes and you actually get a lower EY i.e more fines migration (if that even is a thing). The filter paper seems to relieve this symptom thus allowing you to go finer and extract more. So I think that it's more likely to be down to this rather than any filtering effect on the espresso liquid itself. It would be very hard to directly compare two shots (one with paper and one without at the same grind setting due to the significant time difference) so this is this kind of explains things for me.

Obviously, like the majority of my "work", all theoretical and without any real evidence so I'll prepare to be shot down


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I just tried this (again) , before I wasnt wetting the filter though.

Anyone notice the 'fizzing' hiss noise at the start of the shot ? like at the end of an aeropress. haha.

I tried on zero and it completely choked the machine .

Tried it on my usual setting (1.5cm away from zero) and it seemed to slow the shot down significantly . 18->52g->50 seconds. Without the filter I was getting similar output in 36 seconds and it tasted better, sweeter and more complex. . Maybe I like my oils?

EDIT : running magic water , vibe pump natural ramp up to approx 6 BAR then slow reduction in pressure whilst flow increases.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I just tried this (again) , before I wasnt wetting the filter though.
> 
> Anyone notice the 'fizzing' hiss noise at the start of the shot ? like at the end of an aeropress. haha.
> 
> ...


Yes to the fizzing noise, no to the shots running slower (at least is my experiences up to now). That said I am running a longish 3b pre infusion stage as well.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I just tried this (again) , before I wasnt wetting the filter though.
> 
> Anyone notice the 'fizzing' hiss noise at the start of the shot ? like at the end of an aeropress. haha.
> 
> ...


Also if your new burrs are aligned then zero is a no go zone. I'm between 2-4 so far on the 3FE.


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

garydyke1 said:


> I just tried this (again) , before I wasnt wetting the filter though.
> 
> Anyone notice the 'fizzing' hiss noise at the start of the shot ? like at the end of an aeropress. haha.
> 
> I tried on zero and it completely choked the machine .


Hello

Are you using new or old coffee burrs ?

-JKK


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

gary was the first to get the new coffee burrs.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

risky said:


> Well to pick up on Mark's last point about these 'ultra fines' if you will. Andy I notice you giving the beans a quick spritz. How long have you been doing RDT and what benefits have you noticed?


I've been doing RDT for many months. Reducing static makes things a lot less messy.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> From my tests adding the aeropress filter has the following effect
> 
> 1. Speeds up the shot for any given grinder setting/coffee
> 
> ...


Yes, the shot flows faster, which may encourage and/or enable you to grind finer. But even without a grind adjustment extraction yield increases. I'm aware that Matt and the Mahlkonig folks say that yield will decrease past a certain point, but I do not get that with long preinfusions and the in-pf paper filtering ("IPF").



garydyke1 said:


> Anyone notice the 'fizzing' hiss noise at the start of the shot ? like at the end of an aeropress. haha.


Yup, I get that, too. Perhaps it's similar to the space music that the Apollo 10 astronauts heard on the far side of the moon?


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

This chart summarizes data from 3 pairs of shots. In each pair, one used the IPF and one did not. All were made with the same grind setting on an EK43 with original coffee burrs.

Clearly the filter allows shots to flow faster, while promoting a higher yield. The huge difference in yield between shots 1 and 2 is the biggest I've seen; the other two pairs are typical.

This data doesn't indicate that IPF is a superior way to make coffee; it certainly is an interesting technique to experiment with, however.


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

Great work @AndyS. Any comments on taste to pair with those reads?


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

alexferdi said:


> Great work @AndyS. Any comments on taste to pair with those reads?


The filtered higher yields bring out more sweetness. If the yields get too high, though, a harshness or bitterness starts to intrude. Depending on the coffee, this may happen at 24% or 25%, it seemed to depend.

The IPF (in-portafilter filter) sometimes seems to remove certain complexities in flavor. So I'm not saying that the IPF method is the ultimate way to make espresso, but it sure suggests that the standard way is not the ultimate, either.

BTW, here's another pair of shots from this morning. I could scarcely believe it:

Without IPF: 19.2g/52.2g/74 sec/7.98%TDS/21.8%EY

With IPF: 19.2g/52.5g/63 sec/8.93%TDS/24.4%EY


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

No cremz for the win ....

This is a shot of Karatu Aa from man v machine in Germany ..

Rdt -> Aeropress filter > ground at zero > low pressure > no cremz - looks all kinds of wrong > tastes all kinds of right .

What stonking Clarity And sweetness - like as Jeebsy I think put it " a blackcurrant tune "


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> No cremz for the win ....
> 
> This is a shot of Karatu Aa from man v machine in Germany ..
> 
> ...


Better than a normal shot? Did you grind finer than normal?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

alexferdi said:


> Better than a normal shot? Did you grind finer than normal?


1. What is a normal shot ?

2. Yes i was grinding at zero ( old coffee burrs )

3. As per my commentary is was a very very tasty shot indded


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> 1. What is a normal shot ?
> 
> 2. Yes i was grinding at zero ( old coffee burrs )
> 
> 3. As per my commentary is was a very very tasty shot indded


Just meant was it tastier than the shots you usually do without an aero press filter?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

alexferdi said:


> Just meant was it tastier than the shots you usually do without an aero press filter?


I havent been pulling side by sides of the same coffee ( aeropress and non aeropress ) it was a very tasty shot , and i am sticking with the aeropress method at mo ( ive been doing it for about a week now and have no complaints )

If i was to generalise > sweet and clean and tons of clarity - in a very happy spro place at the moment


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> I havent been pulling side by sides of the same coffee ( aeropress and non aeropress ) it was a very tasty shot , and i am sticking with the aeropress method at mo ( ive been doing it for about a week now and have no complaints )
> 
> If i was to generalise > sweet and clean and tons of clarity - in a very happy spro place at the moment


Sounds great! Can't wait for my L1-P to be back up and running to give it a shot with the filter


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

alexferdi said:


> Sounds great! Can't wait for my L1-P to be back up and running to give it a shot with the filter


 @AndyS have you tried this with your l1 ( do you still have it ? )


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> @AndyS have you tried this with your l1 ( do you still have it ? )


Tried it but the standard L1's preinfusion at 1.4 bar isn't enough to soak through such a fine grind. It just doesn't make this style of espresso.


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## lespresso (Aug 29, 2008)

Not yet


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

lespresso said:


> Not yet


Hmm...not sure what that somewhat cryptic statement means, Reiss, but I have thought of moving up to the L1-P for just this reason. I haven't followed the L1-P's evolution, but am I correct that it's a plumbed-in-only machine that preinfuses at line pressure?


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## lespresso (Aug 29, 2008)

That's right. But we have a kit coming, hopefully this month, for the L1.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

lespresso said:


> That's right. But we have a kit coming, hopefully this month, for the L1.


Well then, please put my name on your list.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

JKK said:


> On the first pic, you mean the bright area around 10 oclock ?
> 
> Yes I did wonder about the acuracy of aligment using the sweepers.
> 
> ...


 @JKK sorry if this is a stupid question or suggestion (happy to hear others thoughts as well). I read this thread today more for the videos etc. but saw you were mentioning about the grind setting having to be 1 and wondered if you'd tried this adjustment of seemingly ensuring the burrs are "close together" for want of a better expression. Video courtesy of the Systemic Kid


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

jlarkin said:


> @JKK sorry if this is a stupid question or suggestion (happy to hear others thoughts as well). I read this thread today more for the videos etc. but saw you were mentioning about the grind setting having to be 1 and wondered if you'd tried this adjustment of seemingly ensuring the burrs are "close together" for want of a better expression.


Hello.

Oh yes, I am fully aware of the "chirp of death" burr zeroing routine.

I have to grind right next to the chirp to get a decent flow, very annoying.

-JKK


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

JKK said:


> Hello.
> 
> Oh yes, I am fully aware of the "chirp of death" burr zeroing routine.
> 
> ...


Hi I am just not having the same experience as you ( at full or lower pressure )

I am unsure how to help you - a clip id required of prep and extraction beyond that everyone is just guessing

But given that there are a number of EK43 owners running older burrs at full and low pressure then i suggest the first place to look is prep .

Beyond that is alignment - but you seen to have a handle on how to do that

I know of some people happy with shots at 20-25 seconds and some that arent . flow and time only need to be noted when there is a taste imbalance ...

this is not meant to sound harsh or rude but Other than that perhaps sell it and buy a grinder that meets your taste and flow requirements


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Hi I am just not having the same experience as you ( at full or lower pressure )
> 
> I am unsure how to help you - a clip id required of prep and extraction beyond that everyone is just guessing
> 
> ...


foa


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

Anyone got a clever quick way of cutting the aero press filters down to size? @AndyS


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Fold em 4-8 times trim edge . @jeebsy blue peter badge suggestion


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Hi I am just not having the same experience as you ( at full or lower pressure )
> 
> I am unsure how to help you - a clip id required of prep and extraction beyond that everyone is just guessing
> 
> ...


Not selling it, no no.

As you correctly point out, taste is key rather than the numbers.

I'm pretty happy with the taste, but always just a bit too bright.

I would love to grind just that bit finer for slower pour, I'm maxed out

at 19.5g in 18vst so don't want to overdose any more.

But some help arrived from Scotland yesterday !

The feldgrind can go super fine, and surprisingly good for espresso :-o

I shall spend another weekend with re-centring the EK burrs with

the centre mount as ref instead of the sweepers to see if that helps.

Prep video - as soon as a photogenic tamper arrives from Germany . . .

Jeebsy what is foa ? Friend of Animals !

-JKK


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## doublehelix (Jul 23, 2015)

Here's some thoughts and experiments trying to suss out how paper filters affect extractions:

http://www.home-barista.com/tips/aeropress-meets-espresso-machine-t36020.html?hilit=filter

I like the espresso I get from using the filters--but I miss some of the body, possibly removed by the filter. The fact that extractions run quicker, does seem counter-intuitive....there's a lot of complex effects going on here.

I simply pre-wet the filter before inserting it into the basket--it nicely conforms and gets around the problem of cutting filters to size. Perhaps someone will start marketing filters to fit specific baskets????


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

JKK said:


> I have to grind right next to the chirp to get a decent flow, very annoying.


Even with pump pressure lowered to say, 4 bar? That is strange.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

alexferdi said:


> Anyone got a clever quick way of cutting the aero press filters down to size? @AndyS


What I do is this:

1. weigh out a 2.1g stack of Aeropress filters (that's about 13 filters, and weighing is faster than counting)

2. draw a 50 mm dia circle on the top filter

3. holding the stack together tightly, I cut them all at once with a sharp pair of scissors.

And by the way @Mrboots2u, I don't intend to make a video of this procedure. ;-)


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

doublehelix said:


> I simply pre-wet the filter before inserting it into the basket--it nicely conforms and gets around the problem of cutting filters to size.


I thought about that but was concerned about creases along the sides inducing a side channel. Will try again.


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

AndyS said:


> Even with pump pressure lowered to say, 4 bar? That is strange.


Hello

Tried 4bar, but taste profile started to get a but dull and muddy.

Currently around 7.5bar.

Sorry to hijack your thread.

-JKK


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

JKK said:


> Tried 4bar, but taste profile started to get a but dull and muddy.
> 
> Currently around 7.5bar.


Only other strategies that come to mind for slowing down the shot are:

1. shorter preinfusion

2. bigger dose in the same basket (if it fits under the screen)

3. even bigger dose in an upsized basket

4. new coffee burrs instead of old coffee burrs

Maybe you've already tried these things.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

AndyS said:


> I thought about that but was concerned about creases along the sides inducing a side channel. Will try again.


I agree with this, I've had a few where my cutting has been poor and a few areas curved up the sides. I found that this seemed to lead to some faster streams at the side of the puck. I think you almost need to create a seal around the holes in the bottom of the basket.


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

AndyS said:


> Only other strategies that come to mind for slowing down the shot are:
> 
> 1. shorter preinfusion
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback.

1. I'm on an expobar, so not much control over preinfusion

2. I have had some success with this, but 20g in 18vst is pushing it.

as you suggest a bigger basket would help.

4. Mmmmm, currently looking for something to sell where ££=new burr price . . .

cheers

-JKK


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## jonbutler88 (Dec 31, 2015)

It might be possible to use one of the large hole punches used for paper craft to cut the Aeropress filters down to size? Something like this: http://www.hobbycraft.co.uk/large-circle-punch/595782-1000?

They cut an approximately 5cm circle, and they should give pretty good consistency. Might be interesting to compare filter papers too, I imagine using e.g. a Chemex filter in the bottom of the basket would give a very different result.


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## "coffee 4/1" (Sep 1, 2014)

Just had to try, insteed of paper filters tried super fine stainless steel mesh 200 400 and 500 -25 micron cut disc to fit bottom of basket, best result the 200, taste wise to shot from lever of tunki beans was more combined flavour of chocolate & spices, with a muddier looking extraction, wether it's because i double grind to remove near 90% of chaff, so not sure,but I'm liking this method, the plus is the mesh is washable.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jonbutler88 said:


> It might be possible to use one of the large hole punches used for paper craft to cut the Aeropress filters down to size? Something like this: http://www.hobbycraft.co.uk/large-circle-punch/595782-1000?
> 
> They cut an approximately 5cm circle, and they should give pretty good consistency. Might be interesting to compare filter papers too, I imagine using e.g. a Chemex filter in the bottom of the basket would give a very different result.


I had a look at these but I think 50mm is too small and will not cover the holes. Luckily it's pretty easy to cut a bunch of them with scissors.


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## jonbutler88 (Dec 31, 2015)

Ah ok, AndyS's post mentioned 50mm so I thought you might be able to get away with it. I doubt anyone scrapbooking cares about millimetre precision in their hole punches unfortunately...


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

\ said:


> Just had to try, insteed of paper filters tried super fine stainless steel mesh 200 400 and 500 -25 micron cut disc to fit bottom of basket, best result the 200, taste wise to shot from lever of tunki beans was more combined flavour of chocolate & spices, with a muddier looking extraction, wether it's because i double grind to remove near 90% of chaff, so not sure,but I'm liking this method, the plus is the mesh is washable.


I have some of 200u mesh, how easy are they to clean? We're you seeing a similar EY increase as people are getting with the aeropress filters?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jonbutler88 said:


> Ah ok, AndyS's post mentioned 50mm so I thought you might be able to get away with it. I doubt anyone scrapbooking cares about millimetre precision in their hole punches unfortunately...


Sorry, I was going off his video where he mentioned 52mm, I've not checked so it might just work.


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## Bolta (May 11, 2014)

That's starting to resemble a Reneka micro sieve basket.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Bolta said:


> That's starting to resemble a Reneka micro sieve basket.


I remember those things, we were trying to sort a group buy at some point. They are a little different in design to what's going on here but I'd be interested to have a play with one.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

jonbutler88 said:


> It might be possible to use one of the large hole punches used for paper craft to cut the Aeropress filters down to size? Something like this: http://www.hobbycraft.co.uk/large-circle-punch/595782-1000?
> 
> They cut an approximately 5cm circle, and they should give pretty good consistency. Might be interesting to compare filter papers too, I imagine using e.g. a Chemex filter in the bottom of the basket would give a very different result.





Xpenno said:


> I had a look at these but I think 50mm is too small and will not cover the holes. Luckily it's pretty easy to cut a bunch of them with scissors.


I tried an inexpensive 2 inch circle punch from a craft store. It was so dull and flexible that I couldn't get it to cut clean circles. But with a better quality setup this would be terrific.

Also, I think 50 mm size would work fine.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

AndyS said:


> I tried an inexpensive 2 inch circle punch from a craft store. It was so dull and flexible that I couldn't get it to cut clean circles. But with a better quality setup this would be terrific.
> 
> Also, I think 50 mm size would work fine.


Good news, I think Fiskar do one that should be decent quality, I would expect it to be a step up from the craft ones that I saw on ebay. I think you're supposed to chomp aluminium foil with them to keep them sharp.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

That's the one I was looking at.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fiskars-Extra-Large-Circle-Squeeze-Punch/dp/B000VPNXVC


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

@AndyS have you tried the reneka micro sieve basket?


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> @AndyS have you tried the reneka micro sieve basket?


No, have not.


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## "coffee 4/1" (Sep 1, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> I have some of 200u mesh, how easy are they to clean? We're you seeing a similar EY increase as people are getting with the aeropress filters?


Yes EY increase, simple rinse under tap, the minus is after extraction 20 seconds of drips, so still playing with mesh, tamp,& grind, and will try with single grind to see if no chaff is the negative for the drips,

have a small amount of spare ss mesh PM address if you like to try.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

JKK said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> 1. I'm on an expobar, so not much control over preinfusion
> 
> ...


Plumbed or tank Brewtus?


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Plumbed or tank Brewtus?


 Tank


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

JKK said:


> Tank
> 
> View attachment 19656


Are you going to do an extraction and prep clip


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## nostream (Apr 2, 2015)

For what it's worth, I just tried the filter out. I didn't bother trimming it because I'm lazy. Just folded and rinsed.

EK43 w/ VST 20 basket --> L1. I have to underdose quite a bit because the L1 offers very little headroom.

Flow was clearly a bit screwed up due to my sloppy AP filter technique, coming initially from the edges and then the center. But, eventually, it was nice and even. Shot pulled slow - if anything, slower than normal. On my machine, I actually prefer quite short shot times around 18-22sec. (I know this sounds bizarre, but I've confirmed this with many other coffee folks on my setup.) I was pulling Heart's Muranga Kenya. I wound up with a 25s shot; 17.3 in, 38.5 out - tight by my standards. It was super concentrated tasting (didn't hit it with the refractometer), really heavy and syrupy, a bit bitter, sweet, chocolatey. A true comfort food shot. I have no doubt extraction was pretty high - those bitter flavors correlate pretty strongly with over-extraction on my setup. My girlfriend really enjoyed the shot. It wasn't my style but I still thought it was pretty pleasant.

Anyway, this is something I'll keep messing with, but at more typical parameters for me - slightly lower dose, 20sec, 1:2.5 ratio.


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Are you going to do an extraction and prep clip


Hello

Errm, here you go:

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?30248-EK43-Espresso-Video&p=402207#post402207

-jkk


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## mazi (Jan 21, 2015)

nostream said:


> 17.3 in, 38.5 out


17.3 in VST20? I usually dose on L1 the lower recommendation dose. So 17.3 in should fit in VST18 with enough headroom and this is with paper filter in the basket.


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## nostream (Apr 2, 2015)

mazi said:


> 17.3 in VST20? I usually dose on L1 the lower recommendation dose. So 17.3 in should fit in VST18 with enough headroom and this is with paper filter in the basket.


I generally go by the metric of "does the shower screen leave an impression?" (If so, lower the dose.) My experience is that the 18g doesn't allow more than 15-15.5g without an impression. Likewise, max dose for the 20 is around 17.5. I also would note that at the higher end of that range, I get uglier, less consistent, lower EY shots.

But I definitely find this need to under-dose weird and am curious if others are in the same basket. (hah, pun...)


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Maybe Reiss @lespresso could comment on the L1 headspace issue?


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## lespresso (Aug 29, 2008)

Oh yes, I'm a closet masochist . Best thing I've read on the issue over the years is when you fasten the dosed PF to the group and then remove it the shower screen shouldn't leave an impression in the puck. It will almost always leave some form of minor impression in the puck after the shot is pulled though. I can certainly run 18g in an 18g VST and obtain good results. The L1 pairs beautifully with the EK43 as the acceleration of flow as the shot progresses is minimal.


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## nostream (Apr 2, 2015)

lespresso said:


> Oh yes, I'm a closet masochist . Best thing I've read on the issue over the years is when you fasten the dosed PF to the group and then remove it the shower screen shouldn't leave an impression in the puck. It will almost always leave some form of minor impression in the puck after the shot is pulled though. I can certainly run 18g in an 18g VST and obtain good results. The L1 pairs beautifully with the EK43 as the acceleration of flow as the shot progresses is minimal.


Interesting. I just based my technique on what I've found true with various pump machines (mostly the CC1 at home before I had the L1 and the Strada, Linea, and GB5 at work). By the way, underdosing the baskets actually works quite well and I get tasty extractions, just have to grind very fine and can't do additional pre-infusion. (Perhaps there's enough headspace that there's already a fair bit of pre-infusion happening.) Based on your thoughts, I will try some doses at closer to the nominal capacity of the baskets.

Anyway, in the vein of this thread, I'm planning to take a shot prep video but will end up taking a while to do so because I'm a bit OCD about such things.


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## indend007 (Mar 31, 2014)

I like cutting edge!


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Another old EK43 thread read, and more questions to ask!

Are people still using Aeropress filters in their PF? not really read anything about using them anywhere else and can't seem to find any more recent posts.

will give it a try myself at some point but interested to hear people experiences and conclusions


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Andy Schecter @AndyS posted about using Aeropress paper filters.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

Phobic said:


> Are people still using Aeropress filters in their PF?


Yes


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Thanks andy, that's quite a long time then, you must be convinced that it's a better shot for you - definitely going to give this a go myself once things settle down with my new setup, want to be able to do a decent compare and contrast.


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## "coffee 4/1" (Sep 1, 2014)

Phobic said:


> Another old EK43 thread read, and more questions to ask!
> 
> Are people still using Aeropress filters in their PF? not really read anything about using them anywhere else and can't seem to find any more recent posts.
> 
> will give it a try myself at some point but interested to hear people experiences and conclusions


No, upgraded to stainless steel mesh,







the plus is no banging to remove used puck, quick rinse of mesh, had the same one going for 4months now they don't wear-out.


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Hm, the kohi with its flexibility would presumably be perfect for this.


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

from my lowly coffee making position of Classic and Rocky, one thing I have which is the same as the original video is the funnel for filling the portafilter - and I see the same issue a I have - a nicely stirred up distributed grind, and when you pull out the funnel, an empty dead bans about 1.5mm wide all around the top of the puck, where the funnel sits, which sort of defeats the even distribution, and further fiddling afterwards can lead to grind spillage, which was the reason for using the funnel in the first place.

i'm thinking of modding the funnel, so most of it only sits a mm or so inside the portafilter, with maybe three thin legs that go in further to locate it. i may even start a new thread to discuss.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

nice tip on the metal filter, might give one a go http://kohilabs.com/kohi-filter-for-aeropress/

@GrahamS check out the 3d printed PF funnels from @whiteyj http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22400&p=270140#post270140

they fix the problem you're talking about.


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

The Kohi filters are good (use one in my aeropress) but it *does* need the occasional (every couple of weeks for me) quick soak in caffiza in order to keep it at peak functionality.


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## "coffee 4/1" (Sep 1, 2014)

Phobic, Try THEMESHCOMPANY.COM, click on vape mesh, all woven wire mesh is ss316 grade,

try the 300,400,500 grade, all A5 size sheets, roughly £3.00 a sheet, theres also sieve mesh there if needed.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

great thanks will check it out


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

\ said:


> Phobic, Try THEMESHCOMPANY.COM, click on vape mesh, all woven wire mesh is ss316 grade,
> 
> try the 300,400,500 grade, all A5 size sheets, roughly £3.00 a sheet, theres also sieve mesh there if needed.


So you still find you get the same increase in extraction with the metal fillets? I tried ages ago with an aeropress metal filter but it was too fine. Might try something a little bigger if so.

Cheers


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## "coffee 4/1" (Sep 1, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> So you still find you get the same increase in extraction with the metal fillets? I tried ages ago with an aeropress metal filter but it was too fine. Might try something a little bigger if so.
> 
> Cheers


I tend to use 300 grade has no increase or decrease in extraction on my lever machine, the plus is for me i can tap out the used puck in my hand without wakening the household as it just falls out with the mesh,

as for the 500 grade which is like silk there will be a difference in extraction,as for low price of mesh i would try all sizes. on cutting mesh just draw round your tamper then cut inside line with scissors.


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## mfortin (Mar 19, 2014)

Wow, thank you Mr RandyS. What a noticeable difference in the cup it makes.

Regards

Martin


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