# Flat white milk - impossible!



## CrackDown

Hello all,

I use a Gaggia Classic for my coffee and have recently upgraded the steam wand to a Rancilio Silvia wand (during which I broke the steam pipe inside and had to buy another for £30!). Now, I've watched videos of people making the perfect flat white milk with this equipment on YouTube, but can I do it? can I ****!

I'll add about 10oz of cold, whole milk to my stainless steel jug, turn the steam on with the wand just under the surface of the milk. I hear the 'tearing' sound for stretching the milk. It all looks good. I've got a bit of a swirl. Now, I've tried any number of different ways of doing this, for different lengths of time, stretching for longer, stretching for shorter... texturing for longer/shorter. Less steam/more steam, but I always end up with SOME foam on the top of the milk, ranging from big foam to micro (latex paint looking), but when I pour the milk into the coffee, it's just hot milk. No thickness to it at all. Absolutely no way of making latte art, until the end when a big pile of foam lands on top.

Any ideas where I'm going wrong?

Many thanks


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## Syenitic

Have you tried mixing the foam into the milk?

Put the jug flat on a surface, and keeping it flat on the surface shake the jug in a rapid circular motion. This should fold the foam into the liquid.


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## NickdeBug

If you are getting a big pile of foam on the top it sounds like you are leaving the steam tip at the surface too long.

As mentioned above, you can incorporate the milk/foam to some extent and you can often see baristas pouring from one jug to another to achieve this.

Try practising with water a drop or two of Fairy Liquid (or similar) rather than wasting too much milk.


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## stevenh

Also if pouring too slowly at the beginning then you will be getting more liquid rather than an incorporated mixture... Try pouring a little faster.

Make sure don't hear milk too much as the foam breaks down quickly if gets too hot and won't integrate.

As suggested above, always give jug a good swirl after frothing and before pouring.


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## MediumRoastSteam

10oz of milk for the little Gaggia Classic is a bit too much, from experience. Have you tried with 6oz instead?


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## c_squared

The advice given is all good stuff. After you have stretched he milk you have to drop the wand deeper into the milk and get the milk circulating around, like a standing wave. This is what mixes the milk so that when you pour you don't end up with thin milk and a dollop of foam at the end. It's largely a matter of practice, getting the angle of the pitcher correct and ensuring that the boiler light stay switched off throughout the whole thing. If you don't time the steaming right on the classic, you'll run out of steam power and won't get the standing wave.


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## stevenh

Oh yeh and always make sure to refill the boiler after steaming each drink...


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## Mrboots2u

pessutojr said:


> 10oz of milk for the little Gaggia Classic is a bit too much, from experience. Have you tried with 6oz instead?


This ^^^^^


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## Mrboots2u

Use less milk . Pour foam of top .


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## CrackDown

Thanks all. I did try the swirly bit at the end, just obviously not enough. And I'll try less milk too and report back!


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## Rhys

You're not alone, as all I could get on the Classic was hot milk and a blob of foam. I found the steam wand a little short on the Gaggia for larger pitcher. There is a thread somewhere on the Gaggia section of the forum that shows how to steam properly. I don't know what pitcher you use, but I'm finding it easier with an Espro Toroid and pointing the wand at the centre.


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## Mrboots2u

CrackDown said:


> Thanks all. I did try the swirly bit at the end, just obviously not enough. And I'll try less milk too and report back!


Have you checked this ?

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22590-How-to-create-Silk-Milk-on-a-Gaggia-Classic-(Velvety-Microfoam)&highlight=gaggia+milk+perfect


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## Rhys

Mrboots2u said:


> Have you checked this ?
> 
> http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22590-How-to-create-Silk-Milk-on-a-Gaggia-Classic-(Velvety-Microfoam)&highlight=gaggia+milk+perfect


Thats the one I was thinking of.. Excellent thread.


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## Jollybean

Definitely agree with using less milk. On my Gaggia I keep the tip at the top of the milk for only a couple of seconds to get two bursts of the shkk shkk sound while air is being introduced then drop the tip in lower and concentrate on getting a good swirl. I find that pointing the wand down to the bottom of the jug helps get the milk circulating. Keep practicing - you will get there. I use about 5 ounces of milk which is enough for a six ounce cup.


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## mremanxx

Had a gaggia, like others too much milk for the boiler, top tip would be the type of jug, I struggled getting a nice micro foam until I got a Motta jug, so easy now it's unbelievable.


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## CrackDown

Thanks everyone. I managed to make one on Saturday! (woo hoo), but have yet to make one since (two more attempts). I don't seem to understand why the stretching process should be so quick? I thought that tear-sound was getting all the air into the milk? If the tip of the wand is under the surface, is it still generating micro bubbles?


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## stevenh

You want to introduce all the air you need at the beginning then spend as much time as possible texturing to integrate the air into the milk hence the 'tch-tch' part should only be a few seconds. After milk reaches a certain temperature, it doesn't take on more air well...


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## RazorliteX

Sounds like a daft question but what milk are you using? Semi skimmed is harder to foam compared to Whole milk (its not impossible, just a pain whereas whole milk is easy (or easier)).


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## Bentaylor77

Can anyone recommend a good milk frothing course?


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## jeebsy

Bentaylor77 said:


> Can anyone recommend a good milk frothing course?


Ozone, curators coffee or department of coffee and social affairs


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## CrackDown

RazorliteX said:


> Sounds like a daft question but what milk are you using? Semi skimmed is harder to foam compared to Whole milk (its not impossible, just a pain whereas whole milk is easy (or easier)).


Yes whole milk. I've still only successfully managed it once. It seems like if I stretch for a couple of seconds, there's a bit of foam on the top, and then I texture, spending anywhere up to 30 seconds just letting the steam swirl the milk round and round and round until it's piping hot... but there's just no microfoam.


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## NickdeBug

Sounds like a funny question, but how dry is your steam? A good machine throws out a really fine steam. If you hold a bit of paper towel in front of it, it should not get wet. If the steam is full of big droplets of hot water then it will be really tough to produce good microfoam. If it is wet then maybe the machine is running a slightly too low pressure or temp. Others can probably offer better advice on this.

Re milk - whole milk is very tasty but not great for the waistline. Try Cravendale Semi which has a higher protein content than most supermarket whole milk. Protein content is more important than fat for good milk.


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## Fevmeister

NickdeBug said:


> Sounds like a funny question, but how dry is your steam? A good machine throws out a really fine steam. If you hold a bit of paper towel in front of it, it should not get wet. If the steam is full of big droplets of hot water then it will be really tough to produce good microfoam. If it is wet then maybe the machine is running a slightly too low pressure or temp. Others can probably offer better advice on this.
> 
> Re milk - whole milk is very tasty but not great for the waistline. Try Cravendale Semi which has a higher protein content than most supermarket whole milk. Protein content is more important than fat for good milk.


I disagree!!


1 cupCaloriesTotal Fat (g)Chol. (mg)Carbs (g)Fiber (g)Sugars (g)Protein (g)Calcium (mg)Skim Milk90051301283001% Milk1102.5101301283002% Milk1203.515120128300Whole Milk150835120118300

almost negligible difference! the extra fat content over 2% (semi skim) is 4.5g per 1 cup (apologies for measurement) poses no issues whatsoever, even in the quantities us lot consume milk in

plus i would imagine it's healthy fats so actually good to consume

when people see the word 'fat' they only see 'headline fat' that they think only consists of hydrogenated/saturated etc.... but in reality some fats are good


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## jeebsy

NickdeBug said:


> Re milk - whole milk is very tasty but not great for the waistline.


I think this is overplayed unless you're making bucket sized drinks - 100ml of milk for a flat white - semi skimmed is 50 cals, full fat is 64 cals.


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## NickdeBug

When David Brailsford took over the running of Team GB's cycling he talked about "marginal gains". Improving efficiencies by only 1% on every component resulting in huge increase in performance.

A switch from Full fat to semi-skimmed milk may result in an insignificant difference on its own, when combined with the same approach to all other aspects of dietary intake then the difference is worth the effort.

Anyway - you're all big boys and girls - I'm sure that you can decide what you want to put into your mouth yourself


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## AndyH83

That video posted above is really good, it may not go into the technical aspects of it all, but it's great to know that this kind of milk CAN be achieved with the classic!

I started off trying to constantly introduce air into the milk, I then watched this video.....https://vimeo.com/67798639 and I started to understand more about it.

I keep practising and I'm trying to concentrate on getting all the air in in the first couple of seconds, and then get it swirling until the cows come home! I now get a lovely emulsion texture, but it seems to separate into foam and milk relatively quickly - I try and swirl in the jug, however I'm currently using a jug which is far far too small, and it tends to swish over the edges (I've ordered two jugs from ebay, both times had real issues and consequently been waiting for over 4 weeks! That's another story).

I definitely think I'm getting there, my pouring needs a lot of work though, I tend to end up with a lot of foam on the top, rather than the rich espresso, and consequently a pale surface which wouldn't be any good for latte art even if I could do it!

But, the main thing is, I'm now making (with the help of all of you guys) some lovely velvety flat whites, which taste amazing due to the bean/grinder recommendations and the recipes etc etc....I have made coffee for a few friends in the last few weeks after getting the classic, and the guat beans from Foundry, and they've been impresses - as have I. They may not look amazing, but they taste and feel good.

Anyway, I'll keep practising, if you crack it in the meantime OP, let me know!!!

Andy


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## NickdeBug

Excellent video Andy.

It even carries TSK's seal of approval in the comments section!


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## hotmetal

Yeah I have watched that video a few times now. The thing about latte art is that you can only really practice it when you get your milk right - which can reduce the opportunity for practice. Given that we home users might typically do 3-4 drinks a day, it takes forever! I get through a couple of pints a day (not all coffee! ) so I normally buy semi but they'd run out yesterday so I bought whole milk. I'd forgotten how much easier it is to steam.


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## Condyk

c_squared is correct. It takes a lot of practice to get milk right, so keep trying. You can practice with water and a tiny amount of washing up liquid rather than waste milk - you may know this already. You can also study YouTube videos for technique. It's possible to fold a little foam back into the milk by bringing the wand closer to the surface again, but not injecting air into it or making the 'tearing sound' you speak of. It's all subtle and all this milk action happens quickly, so it does take time to get the feel of it rather than think too much about it.


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## Mrboots2u

Practising like this can work too ( with chocolate i mean )


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## CrackDown

Just been looking at jugs (Oh I say). My one is a 0.6l... and I'm wondering if this might be too big for a small 5oz flat white? Would a 350ml be better? The rancillo wand doesn't really reach all the way under the milk unless I tip it a good 45 degrees, you see.


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## jlarkin

CrackDown said:


> *edited* milk pitcher - My one is a 0.6l... and I'm wondering if this might be too big for a small 5oz flat white? Would a 350ml be better? The rancillo wand doesn't really reach all the way under the milk unless I tip it a good 45 degrees, you see.


Yes smaller is probably better, I'll send you this one (pic to follow in one moment from tapatalk) if you would like it and give any small donation to the forum (or to MIND the charity) and PM me your address. See if it makes a difference.


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## CrackDown

jlarkin said:


> Yes smaller is probably better, I'll send you this one (pic to follow in one moment from tapatalk) if you would like it and give any small donation to the forum (or to MIND the charity) and PM me your address. See if it makes a difference.


Superb! Thank you very much. Donation made, will PM you now.


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## RazorliteX

jeebsy said:


> I think this is overplayed unless you're making bucket sized drinks - 100ml of milk for a flat white - semi skimmed is 50 cals, full fat is 64 cals.


Yeah totally agree, I only use full fat everything but manage a slim waistline. The trick is keeping the sugar/carbs down, you cant really absorb fat without the presence of carbs.

Cravendale is interesting though, has around * 2.2 protein compared to the 1:1 ratio of most other milks.


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## hotmetal

RazorliteX said:


> Cravendale is interesting though, has around * 2.2 protein compared to the 1:1 ratio of most other milks.


Interesting, I'd never noticed that before, but it would explain why it's easier to get good foam with it. I've used it but gave up because it has a peculiar 'clean' taste that, while not unpleasant, distracts me from the coffee.


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## CrackDown

Just an update: Much easier with a smaller jug (0.25cl Motto). I find leaving the Gaggia on for longer is better to build up more power, and originally thinking I needed to stretch the milk more at first, a few seconds (3-5) is enough. The swirl is very important, and for me to get it properly going I need to tip the jug towards me about 45 degrees and it creates a whirlpool much easier. I also use a thermometer to let me know when it's between 60-70, because holding onto the jug it got too hot to hold, but wasn't hot enough, and so meant I wasn't texturing for long enough.

Thanks all.

Now to find the perfect flat white beans


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## cavem01

6 Oz of milk and once at the desired temperature "swirl" the milk to get the liquid and foam incorporated then pour STRAIGHT away.


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## Fevmeister

cavem01 said:


> 6 Oz of milk and once at the desired temperature "swirl" the milk to get the liquid and foam incorporated then pour STRAIGHT away.


theres a lot more to it than that!


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## Mrboots2u

Fevmeister said:


> theres a lot more to it than that!


Is there ?


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## h1udd

Yup .... I find chanting "churn you ****er" over and over helps a lot


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## mremanxx

Mrboots2u said:


> Is there ?


Bloody right there is......took me ages to get a nice microfoam, still balls it up a lot though when I rush it


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## mremanxx

RazorliteX said:


> Yeah totally agree, I only use full fat everything but manage a slim waistline. The trick is keeping the sugar/carbs down, you cant really absorb fat without the presence of carbs.
> 
> Cravendale is interesting though, has around * 2.2 protein compared to the 1:1 ratio of most other milks.


Will need to try this, only use green top milk normally.


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## davidlam

Hey I had the same problem when i first worked at a coffee shop and it ofucz come with a lot of practising but since we're on the topic of milk, the way i was taught while try to not waste as much milk was to just use may be a fifth of milk and the rest water, you would still be able to get the foam and it particularly useful if your just testing the temperature and trying to get the swirl going....ofcuz then u would have to trough away the mix but this way you can train without wasting so much milk.

ps i also agree that full fat milk is way easier to froth and soy / almond milk the hardest!


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## dillonmr

with the Silvia I found heat while milk a little with wand before adding air. Then add air until get right volume and then lower wand to circulate the milk. When you finish swirl and tamp to break any bubbles which may have slipped in. Then transfer to a smaller pitcher filling to 3/4, swirl and fill back to larger pitcher so milk is 1/2 filled in small pitcher. Pour and you should get better results with practice.


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## Epic_Espresso

The wand angle is not enough to get the swirl you see on other machines. Try putting the wand more into the centre of the jug and aim for an inward roll to compensate. Sink the wand only just under the surface when you're done stretching, not too deep. I had the Classic with Silvia wand - nice milk is possible but tricky.

Also a flat white is generally smaller than a latte and the smaller qty of milk you have, the less stretching you need to do.

If you get finished preparing the milk and it looks too thick, pouring some away will help.


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