# Gaggia Classic Upgrades?



## Joel (Nov 2, 2015)

Hello!

I own the newer Gaggia Classic, 2015 model. From what I have read, it seems Phillips have done everything in their power to ruin what was great about this machine (something I didn't realise prior to purchase).

I was wondering if are there any upgrades, necessary or unnecessary, to improve my machine - even if just aesthetically. As far as I'm aware, there is no way to add a 3-way valve, could you confirm if this is correct? I have already changed to the Rancilio steam wand.

Thanks!


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hi Joel

I'm on the fence about it being ruined - yes I've changed the steam wand but my belief is the SS boiler is better, my understanding is that its not possible to add the 3 way valve without changing most of other components.

Its making better coffee than any other machine I've owned so far - so I'm happy with it for now.

I'm still waiting for a side by side comparison.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Not sure I'd call it ruined - it is still a machine capable of extracting espresso.

The need to comply with backwards EU regulation (where the machines are manufactured or most commonly sold) is a factor in the dumbing down of some home machines.

You'll get a decent amount if you were to sell it and buy an older Gaggia Classic or an HX machine.

But there's really no need as it does the job pretty similar to the older models.

In most cases the user is the limiting factor. (this is not meant personally - it has been stated many times before)


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

jimbojohn55 said:


> Hi Joel
> 
> I'm on the fence about it being ruined - yes I've changed the steam wand but my belief is the SS boiler is better, my understanding is that its not possible to add the 3 way valve without changing most of other components.
> 
> ...


Ive got both types of machine.

with the standard wand fitted the 2015 is better at steaming milk

The espresso from both is similar if not the same, I cant say one is better than the other in this respect.

The stainless steel boiler is preferable to the aluminium boiler purely from a health aspect (maybe proven, maybe not)

The solenoid valve is much better than the mechanical valve that is fitted to the 2015 which i have found drips after a few months of use and only increases in drip quantity, BUT, it never gets blocked, so never needs to be taken off, dismantled and cleaned like the solenoid valve does.

Shims fail in the portafilter locking mechanism of the 2015 model

Which do i prefer and use on a day to day basis, the older model.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hi Jumbo Ratty, Q - do you get more / better steam from the 2015 model?


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Id say the 2015 gives more steam before the elements kick in due to the larger boiler size, but dont find it any problem whatsoever with the older version to steam, I reckon I steam about 300ml of milk in the jug, neither struggle with that amount at once.

There is a difference in the steam knob operation though, , the older version is more controllable.

imagine if you will it is the volume knob on a amplifier, the older version goes from 0 - 10 with every number in between, , the 2015 is 1 - 10 with maybe 3 and 7 in between,, its just not quite as controllable : that was my experience any way, but it didnt hamper my use of the 2015, you just get used to it if its what you have, , but I did notice the difference.

the original steam wand is longer on the 2015 version (without the plastic panarello attachment that I ditched in favour of just using the metal wand as god intended) this extra length made it easier and in all honesty I doubt the silvia wand would be such an improvement on this where as on the older versions due to the shorter wand it is more beneficial to do the silvia upgrade.

I have read the steam is "dirty" on the 2015 model, tainted with more water in the steam than the older version, , cant say I noticed


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## kappa22 (Feb 11, 2016)

Doesn't the new model come with a 3-way valve like the old one?


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

kappa22 said:


> Doesn't the new model come with a 3-way valve like the old one?


The answer is in post 4 of this thread


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## Lonelyfire (Jul 17, 2020)

@Jumbo Ratty Hi mate

i wanted to ask if you've changed your mind about the 2015 model since your posts above?

ive recently picked up a second hand 2015 model and I've not been able to pull drinkable shots from it yet. I feel like the lack of the OMV and the 3 way solenoid really hurt the capabilities of the machine.

you spoke positively about this machine above but that was a while ago. Do you still feel the same way and if so do you have any advice on how to improve its potential.

thanks

Colin


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Lonelyfire said:


> @Jumbo Ratty Hi mate
> 
> i wanted to ask if you've changed your mind about the 2015 model since your posts above?
> 
> ...


 Most sources suggest the V2 makes better Espresso than V1


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Most sources suggest the V2 makes better Espresso than V1


 Sources?


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

phario said:


> Sources?


 









https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/gaggia-classic-2015

Of the taste reviews vs the old version, i have noted more than one say that the 2015 is marginally better, ( although i am now struggling to find them)

I think this is down to the straight flow path from the boiler to the group head but wtf do i know..

Personally?

Great stuff:



SS boiler is fab.


Boiler size is better and allows for hot water post brew


Boiler heats up quickly


No faff/Maintanace group valve


Safety shut off


Zero leak 1/4 turn steam valve


Steam performance is superb


Temp profile is great (95c brew temps vs 107c for V1)


Internal hygienic tubing > old vs Copper pipe


Poor stuff:



Plastic spout is crap.


Lack of a Drip tray support is naff


Steam wand is no improvement (Still designed for assisted steam only).


The steam on this machine is really great.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Anyone who thinks a 2015 Classic is better than an original or 2018+ Classic is bonkers...

Brew temp - original Classic has a 107c thermostat due to the longer brew water path out of the boiler through the solenoid valve and into the group head. It's aimed at providing water at the shower head of around 94c I guess (in the vague way that thermostats do). V2 has a 95c thermostat due to the short brew water path and complete lack of anything meaningful between the boiler and group - probably also aiming at around 94c shower screen water temp, but in the same vague thermostat manner.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Valkyrie88 (May 3, 2020)

Per your explanation, which is limited only to brew temp (perhaps because you are the resident expert in this area), is the end result (94c) then not the same in both machines?

I aint no expert....but this one flew past me


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Valkyrie88 said:


> Per your explanation, which is limited only to brew temp (perhaps because you are the resident expert in this area), is the end result (94c) then not the same in both machines?
> I aint no expert....but this one flew past me


Yes - exactly. The previous post to mine was pointing out the "great" aspects of the 2015, one being that it had a "93c brew temp as opposed to 107c in the V1" - which is complete tosh.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

MrShades said:


> Yes - exactly. The previous post to mine was pointing out the "great" aspects of the 2015, one being that it had a "93c brew temp as opposed to 107c in the V1" - which is complete tosh.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 You are (knowingly imho) nit picking here.

The thermostat temp on the V2 is 95c because it's a straight path from the boiler inner to the puck. It doesn't have to wind it's way through the ginnals of the group head and lose heat on the way as in the new (or old) aluminium boilers.

The higher thermostat setting on the V1's, 2's is to account for this heat loss. It's effectively hysteresis locked into the system.

Hysteresis the V2 doesn't have.

Bonkers indeed. Maybe all that aluminium in the boiler water is puddling Gaggia owners brains.

I've noted other areas where the V2 is imho, better. Perhaps instead of attacking the poster you could argue against my points?


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Valkyrie88 said:


> Per your explanation, which is limited only to brew temp (perhaps because you are the resident expert in this area), is the end result (94c) then not the same in both machines?
> 
> I aint no expert....but this one flew past me


 Depends if you have done a number of cycles or not.

In the V2, the thermostat temp and boiler design removes hysteresis and thermostat variance aside, shot 1 should be the same as shot n+1.

In the aluminium versions, after shot 1, you've heated up the unit fully and the water no longer has to allow for (all) of the hysteresis in the system so brew temps rise and become variable as the shots progress.

Of course, if you've added that other favourite snake oil addition to the Gaggia in the form of a brass shower head, (in the name of thermal stability whatever that may be) you have changed the thermal profile even more and that tuned 107 thermostat is even more going to be out of wack.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Let's not forget, Mr Shades that you are a vendor, with a vested interest in peddling your nonsense so that more suckers buy your woo and voodoo bits and bobs.

As to doxing members on this forum, I am sure that is against the ethos of the forum rules, no matter how subtle you play it.

But it's a nice, if rather dirty, way to sidestep the points in debate.

Play the man, not the ball huh.

What next from you? A decent attempt to defend what you sell to others on this site, backed up with logic and reason or even more bilious comments and personal attacks?

I suspect the latter.


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Wow, that ^ got a bit a bit aggressive in the tone and uncalled for especially as the man got played (not the ball)

Having dealt with MrShades on many occasions, have found him most generous with time and explanations however having owned a number of different Gaggia's in my time (inc all versions of Classic) am very clearly muddled in my brain ( "aluminium in the boiler water is puddling Gaggia owners brains").

Possibly speaking solely of your own experience with a Gaggia classic and not linking to YouTube "experts" or "Trusted Reviews" would assist others in understanding any pitfalls or benefits?

The classic, in any version, has various limitations that can be overcome or made better, was a machine built to a price. Can you make an outstanding coffee with one in stock form , yes, can you do it consistently, now that's where some modifications can assist including adopting a cleaning regime.

Perhaps it's time to sit down and enjoy a cup of coffee, no matter how or which version its made with 

John


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Let's not forget, Mr Shades that you are a vendor, with a vested interest in peddling your nonsense so that more suckers buy your woo and voodoo bits and bobs.
> As to doxing members on this forum, I am sure that is against the ethos of the forum rules, no matter how subtle you play it.
> But it's a nice, if rather dirty, way to sidestep the points in debate.
> Play the man, not the ball huh.
> ...


Unless I'm missing something the Shades of Coffee website only sells PID systems for the Classic. Are you suggesting temperature management is "woo and voodoo"?

I have experience of V1 and V2 classics and have found V1 to be the better machine.

If you are correct that we all have this wrong it seems strange that Gaggia have reverted back to the older design.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Perhaps instead of attacking the poster you could argue against my points?


 I didn't want to get involved (you'll note I gave a one-word reply and stepped away), but it's worth explaining in a clear way why some people have difficulty conversing.

Part of the issue seems to be that you have strong opinions, but that you support these opinions with part science, part ramble, part irrelevance. It's actually very difficult to untangle anything you say, which is why many people don't bother. Or if they do, they seem to regret it.

I'll provide some examples.

You started off with a strong opinion.



Blue_Cafe said:


> Most sources suggest the V2 makes better Espresso than V1


 I pressed you for sources and you gave two largely irrelevant videos and a trustedreviews.com(!!) review. I did have a look at these "sources" and I don't think they actually support what you were trying to argue.

Second, you mix irrelevance with unfalsifiable statements.



Blue_Cafe said:


> Great stuff:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 The discussion is about whether v1 makes better espresso than v2. Saying that "the SS boiler is fab" is not a fact. It's your opinion. It's moreover in contradiction with the next statement that "the boiler heats up quickly", which is obviously wrong (stainless steel heats up more slowly than aluminium). It also contradicts your video source that does a heating test. You go on to mix further irrelevance like the "safety shut off", which doesn't relate to the actual espresso procedure, and which many view as a con.

It goes on and on. Most of us could try and dissect your arguments but it seems to be pointless, so we try to leave the argument at that point.

There is a very simple editorial fix. Instead of your initial opinion, simply fix this to say:



> There are some advantages to the post-2015 Gaggia Classics that's worth noting.


 Stop pushing opinions as facts unless you're in a position to justify it. If you can't justify it, then just soften what you say and make it clear that it's unconventional and just a theory. Don't do an everything-but-the-kitchen-sink approach to writing; give one opinion and gives facts that support that opinion. I think you are rightfully well-intentioned and have interesting theories, but you may be unaware of the way your posts are viewed.

Finally, it is probably not too helpful to be openly hostile to people like @MrShades who, as I understand it, has made a great number of valuable contributions to the entire community for a great number of years. I have most of his Gaggia tutorials and threads bookmarked, from timer mods to dimmer mods to PID mods. Most of us are very supportive of his ideas, so when you say:



Blue_Cafe said:


> Let's not forget, Mr Shades that you are a vendor, with a vested interest in peddling your nonsense so that more suckers buy your woo and voodoo bits and bobs.


 who do you think the "suckers" are?


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

phario said:


> I didn't want to get involved (you'll note I try not to pursue much discussion past a certain point), but it's worth explaining in a clear way why some people have difficulty conversing.
> 
> Part of the issue seems to be that you have strong opinions, but that you support these opinions with part science, part ramble, part irrelevance. It's actually very difficult to untangle anything you say, which is why many people don't bother. Or if they do, they seem to regret it.
> 
> ...


 Well. The hostility is from Mr P, not me. I'm simply debating the issues. I understand if patrons of the forum think disagreeing with vendors can be antagonist but really, i am not the one calling opinions as bonkers or tiptoing around doxing members because Thier opinions differ.

I agree and disagree with your post but, I want to make two points :

A) Generating a negative narrative around a machine which has been sold and bought at great expense to both the seller and buyer and without justification is poor form. Dislike a product for sure, but don't crap on it just because you can't sell your hobby woo bits and bobs for it.

B) It's dangerous and potentially illegal to modify or promote the modification of pressure containing devices in the EU.

the OPV is a safety valve. Its sole purpose is to protect the system and the user from overpressure. Fannying around with it and changing its innards and it's function is a recipe for trouble. Do it at your own risk but don't sell it as a "must do" which is without potential consequences.

For pressure modification on these systems, the correct way (if any) is to install a separate bypass and leave the safety valve alone. These safety valves are not designed to work as constant use bypass valves. They are a once in a while items.

Do the hobby mods and stuff but at least be responsible.

dont get me started on the bollox of backflushing.....


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Well. The hostility is from Mr P, not me. I'm simply debating the issues. I understand if patrons of the forum think disagreeing with vendors can be antagonist but really, i am not the one calling opinions as bonkers or tiptoing around doxing members because Thier opinions differ.
> 
> I agree and disagree with your post but, I want to make two points :
> 
> ...


Have you looked at the opv in a classic? It is an item that has been adjusted to 15bar. To turn this pressure setting down you are relieving the tension on the spring, thus making it safer not more dangerous. I can see nothing in the design that would suggest it is not a safe modification or that suggests any harm from it being more active. Also in a classic if the boiler pressure was to ramp up to dangerous levels(not even sure how this could happen) the push fit hoses would blow off long before the boiler let go. The opv is not a safety feature and is set so high purely to accommodate pressurised baskets and coffee pods.

You seem to be at the centre of a few contentious threads now with an opinion that is opposed to general consensus. I admire your self confidence, but really, how likely is it that you are correct on all of these topics?

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Blue_Cafe said:


> 1. A) Generating a negative narrative around a machine which has been sold and bought at great expense to both the seller and buyer and without justification is poor form. Dislike a product for sure, but don't crap on it just because you can't sell your hobby woo bits and bobs for it.
> 
> 2. B) It's dangerous and potentially illegal to modify or promote the modification of pressure containing devices in the EU.
> 
> ...


 1. keep to the subject don't attack the person

2. The adjustment of an expansion valve is not illegal or dangerous (I could explain why, but it would be pointless). The clue is even if you close it completely it's still going to release pressure, as *most, if not all* are made to hold a maximum pressure due to the way they work. This is because there is always some spring compressive space left after the valve has been closed. Note in the image below the valve can be adjusted from 10 - 14 bar, and pumps can usually give up to 15 bar. All well within the spec of decent PTFE tubing or copper.









3. It's actually called an expansion valve. In rotary pumped machines it serves to relieve excess hydraulic pressure so pipes don't rupture due to the expansion of water on heating. On vibration pump machines it also serves as a pressure control device (on rotary pumps, pressure is managed by an adjustable bypass)

4. No, see above

5. Backflushing with cleaner is required in both E61 lever groups and solenoid operated groups. Arguably the regular backflushing with cleaner in solenoid groups is actually very important as it stops the solenoid internals inside the valve getting gunked up..this is because most of the solenoid ports are about 1mm. With an E61 lever group it can go much longer without a cleaning backflush, but does require lubrication after, unlike a solenoid group


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Also wrt backflushing I think the only solid reason not to backflush a Classic is that backflush agents such as Cafiza are not well suited to the aluminium shower screen holder. One can get round this by replacing with either a brass or stainless one. I've noted you object to these too but I have had Classics for years and swear by them.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> 1. keep to the subject don't attack the person
> 
> 2. The adjustment of an expansion valve is not illegal or dangerous (I could explain why, but it would be pointless). The clue is even if you close it completely it's still going to release pressure, as *most, if not all* are made to hold a maximum pressure due to the way they work. This is because there is always some spring compressive space left after the valve has been closed. Note in the image below the valve can be adjusted from 10 - 14 bar, and pumps can usually give up to 15 bar. All well within the spec of decent PTFE tubing or copper.
> 
> ...


 You are quite wrong in your understanding of the pressure safety mechanism in the Gaggia and quite wrong in your supposed understanding of pressure in piping and vessels.

Clearly, like Mr Shades, you are beyond reasoning so I won't bother but, in the interest of safety, I shall not be encouraging any owner of a machine like these to modify these devices.

You do you.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

ChilledMatt said:


> Also wrt backflushing I think the only solid reason not to backflush a Classic is that backflush agents such as Cafiza are not well suited to the aluminium shower screen holder. One can get round this by replacing with either a brass or stainless one. I've noted you object to these too but I have had Classics for years and swear by them.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


 Well, Gaggia specifically tell you not to backflush but what do they know huh.

I am all ears if you can explain what the lump of brass strapped to the boiler is supposed to achieve.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

ChilledMatt said:


> Have you looked at the opv in a classic? It is an item that has been adjusted to 15bar. To turn this pressure setting down you are relieving the tension on the spring, thus making it safer not more dangerous. I can see nothing in the design that would suggest it is not a safe modification or that suggests any harm from it being more active. Also in a classic if the boiler pressure was to ramp up to dangerous levels(not even sure how this could happen) the push fit hoses would blow off long before the boiler let go. The opv is not a safety feature and is set so high purely to accommodate pressurised baskets and coffee pods.
> 
> You seem to be at the centre of a few contentious threads now with an opinion that is opposed to general consensus. I admire your self confidence, but really, how likely is it that you are correct on all of these topics?
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


 Do your own research. Look at the flow diagrams for these machines, see and understand the bits and bobs and what they do.

Effectively, under EU law, most pressure containing devices above 0.5 barg fall under the PED.

These device need a pressure safety device to protect the user from the release of potential energy stored as compressed gas or fluid.

These safety devices are not designed to be used constantly. Not are they user serviceable. They are emergency devices.

It seems that some think changing the function of this valve from a emergency use to continuous use is ok and has no bearing on the safety of the machine. These same people however encourage constant backflushing of the brew valves to stop clogging and failure of those valves but don't think the same issues or the same problems can effect this safety valve, now thrust into the brew process. Water quality, contamination, dirt, crud, minerals,scale are only a problem for other bits of the machine. This magic valve, impervious to user or environment abuse can sit there doing it all without a care.

No. It's a dangerous practice.

Install a bypass to the water tank with a separate, adjustable pressure control valve (OPV if you must) but leave the system safety device well alone.


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Well, Gaggia specifically tell you not to backflush but what do they know huh.
> 
> I am all ears if you can explain what the lump of brass strapped to the boiler is supposed to achieve.


I thought I already had. For me they enable occasional backflushing with Cafiza to remove sticky coffee oils from the solenoid valve. If you see the colour of the water discharged from the valve I'm sure you would also agree it is actually a good idea. IMO Gaggia don't recommend it because of the aluminium shower screen holder and the potential for users to do it too aggressively.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

ChilledMatt said:


> I thought I already had. For me they enable occasional backflushing with Cafiza to remove sticky coffee oils from the solenoid valve. If you see the colour of the water discharged from the valve I'm sure you would also agree it is actually a good idea. IMO Gaggia don't recommend it because of the aluminium shower screen holder and the potential for users to do it too aggressively.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


 I would think flushing dirty water through the solenoid valve is exactly why Gaggia tell users not to do.

On your second point, are you saying that the degreaser tablets are corrosive to the aluminium?


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Blue_Cafe said:


> I would think flushing dirty water through the solenoid valve is exactly why Gaggia tell users not to do.
> 
> On your second point, are you saying that the degreaser tablets are corrosive to the aluminium?


The dirty water is from the solenoid valve and exits into the drip tray. And yes. It is the only piece of aluminium in the backflush path...

EDIT: that is in contact with brew water.

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Blue_Cafe said:


> You are quite wrong in your understanding of the pressure safety mechanism in the Gaggia and quite wrong in your supposed understanding of pressure in piping and vessels.
> 
> Clearly, like Mr Shades, you are beyond reasoning so I won't bother but, in the interest of safety, I shall not be encouraging any owner of a machine like these to modify these devices.
> 
> You do you.


 I will admit not having too much interest or getting involved with machines such as the Gaggia. I'm sure it's a very worthy machine but of little interest to me. So I may not have the exact details of the Gaggia down pat and I felt it was better to talk generically.

I tend to work with machines in the £1K to £3K bracket as that's where I feel the core prosumer range sits with stuff above that owned by very few and stuff below it...."uninteresting". I also tend to work on the machines that are coming out in a year or so and prototypes. As the bulk of existing machines work well (mostly) have tried and proven technologies and again are of little interest. I don't just review machines, I test, troubleshoot and design, the advice goes back to manufacturers and they make changes I ask for (mostly). I've worked with espresso machine companies Like Izzo, Quickmill, Lelit, ECM, ACS and Crem to name but a few. Many of the technologies people now enjoy are because of me.

My understanding of safety and the rules is quite good. Read my Crem One 2B review you will see that the rules themselves which you quote are not always good enough in my opinion. I made my thoughts clear to Crem and told them it would be in my review. *They of course, fitted said safety valve to all UK machines and possibly worldwide*...good job too, as one went off during bench testing the early machines!



> *I was surprised to find no safety valve on the service boiler.* Crem said they have multiple safety systems of a limit stat on the boiler and fusible links in the heating element. I have been informed it's compliant with both EU/CE regulation and UK PSSR regulations. Despite this, it doesn't meet MY personal standards even if it meets regulations.* For technical and safety reasons I like to see a safety valve limiting the maximum pressure in a service boiler. Especially when they fail progressively, visibly and noisily during a fault condition*. I strongly advised Crem to consider fitting one as an extra safety feature.


 I'm exposed to a lot of thoughts and ideas from manufacturers who ask me what I think for 2021 machines...true Gaggia have not approached me and that's probably quite a good job.  I also own 9 or 10 machines and have reviewed/tested more than 50+, so my work is based on *experience, not theory.*

P.S. Interesting story about theory an espresso machine designer asked me about the heating time for a 2 litre service (steam) boiler, I told him and he did some calculations and told me I was wrong and that the software needed to work a certain way because of this. I politely listened, looked at his numbers....then pointed out he had calculated it on 2 litres of water, he said "yes, because it's a 2 litre boiler". I asked him to recalculate the numbers based on a 70% fill....he did and came out with the same heating time as me and muttered "yes I didn't think of that".


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> I will admit not having too much interest or getting involved with machines such as the Gaggia. I'm sure it's a very worthy machine but of little interest to me. So I may not have the exact details of the Gaggia down pat and I felt it was better to talk generically.
> 
> I tend to work with machines in the £1K to £3K bracket as that's where I feel the core prosumer range sits with stuff above that owned by very few and stuff below it...."uninteresting". I also tend to work on the machines that are coming out in a year or so and prototypes. As the bulk of existing machines work well (mostly) have tried and proven technologies and again are of little interest. I don't just review machines, I test and troubleshoot, the advice goes back to manufacturers and they make changes I ask for (mostly). I've worked with espresso machine companies Like Izzo, Quickmill, Lelit, ECM, ACS and Crem to name but a few. Many of the technologies people now enjoy are because of me.
> 
> ...


 Well fyi, In the Gaggia the pressure safety device is sat on top of the pump outlet and is set at the rating of the machine (15bar).

In this position it protects all parts of the system from overpressure or thermal expansion.

Its role is solely safety. I am glad you demand others include these on their machines. The potential energy in these can be significant.

Look, I've no issue with adjusting brew pressures, but just do it correctly and safely. Leave this valve the f**k alone and tee just install a simple bypass somewhere. It's easier in some respects than changing the valve in its entirety.


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Well fyi, In the Gaggia the pressure safety device is sat on top of the pump outlet and is set at the rating of the machine (15bar).
> In this position it protects all parts of the system from overpressure or thermal expansion.
> Its role is solely safety. I am glad you demand others include these on their machines. The potential energy in these can be significant.
> 
> Look, I've no issue with adjusting brew pressures, but just do it correctly and safely. Leave this valve the f**k alone and tee just install a simple bypass somewhere. It's easier in some respects than changing the valve in its entirety.


This makes no sense. The opv mod is lowering the pressure that reaches the boiler. How can that be dangerous? I ask again, have you actually looked at one of these valves?

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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

ChilledMatt said:


> This makes no sense. The opv mod is lowering the pressure that reaches the boiler. How can that be dangerous? I ask again, have you actually looked at one of these valves?
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


 Whomever gave this valve the abbreviation of OPV wants shooting with frozen balls of their own sh**e.

From the Gaggia part list:

L-F/BR.SAFETY VALVE 16-18 BAR ASSY.

Have you never come across a stuck valve?

Ever wonder what caused that valve to stick?

Ever wonder why some valves are good for some things but not for others?

Most valve failure is by either wear or contamination. Mostly in a vlave, both phenomenon occur through flow and usage. Because you really don't want a safety device wearing or becoming contaminated, you don't allow them to flow. A safety valve which is passing is an instant shut down and replace.

Leave the valve alone. At worse, over time, it's opening pressure may relax as the spring ages.


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Most people who own SBDU Gaggias on this forum own aluminium boiler V1s. You consistently answer questions as if they have V2s like your own. Please learn the difference. The V2 had a safety device above the pump, we are talking about the OPV found on the V1s.


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Whomever gave this valve the abbreviation of OPV wants shooting with frozen balls of their own sh**e.
> From the Gaggia part list:
> L-F/BR.SAFETY VALVE 16-18 BAR ASSY.
> Have you never come across a stuck valve?
> ...


You've never looked at the valve have you?

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

My popcorn is going down super fast on this one.

(@Norvin ; - the same "safety valve"'used on the v2 as an OPV is also used on the v3 / Classic Pro / Classic 2019 and most other Gaggia machines today - as they're cheap and cheerful bits of plastic and not dependent on boiler / thermoblock type or design - and are factory rated at around 12 bar)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

ChilledMatt said:


> You've never looked at the valve have you?
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


 Good rebuttal :classic_dry:


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

MrShades said:


> My popcorn is going down super fast on this one.
> 
> (@Norvin ; - the same "safety valve"'used on the v2 as an OPV is also used on the v3 / Classic Pro / Classic 2019 and most other Gaggia machines today - as they're cheap and cheerful bits of plastic and not dependent on boiler / thermoblock type or design - and are factory rated at around 12 bar)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Ooh good spot. I'll email Gaggia and tell them the parts lists are wrong then lol.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

In the 1st instance, can we keep to this forum only please. I've asked you before so give it a rest yea?

You still haven't rebutted my thoughts with anything other than insult and fluff.

But then again, you can't do anything else because you know I am right, or, refuse to admit you are wrong

You've dissed Gaggia themselves when it comes to talking about their machines so I am not sure who you would take any notice of tbh.

And what's with the reference to moles? Is that a warning?


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

And now my posts on this thread are being vaped for some reason / so I'm definitely out this time... not worth my time and energy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Good rebuttal


I really wasn't being facetious. If you look at the valve I really do think your safety concerns would be laid to rest. Adjusting it to provide a lower group pressure is increasing the failsafe protection. The output from the OPV (I have even heard Gaggia refer to it as this) to the boiler is a piece of silicone hose pushed over a nipple with no clamp. If pressure were to inexplicably climb beyond safe levels the hose would be forced off of the nipple. Your point about the valve being operated outside of its design (although I'm not sure it actually is) leaves it more prone to sticking is IMO also wrong. In my experience spring activated rubber seats are more likely to stick with underuse.

^I'm betting you will not take this on board as all day now you have been ignoring the salient facts in these arguments and have even accused others, many of whom have a vast amount of experience, of doing the same thing. The irony!

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

ChilledMatt said:


> The dirty water is from the solenoid valve and exits into the drip tray. And yes. It is the only piece of aluminium in the backflush path...
> 
> EDIT: that is in contact with brew water.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


 The dirty water is water that expands from the portafilter (on the dirty side of the shower screen) towards the valve, taking with it the crud dissolved by the cleaner tablets

The boiler is aluminium. The screen holder is aluminium, the screen is aluminium. The group head is chromed brass.

This is the first time I have heard that espresso degreaser is corrosive to aluminium! Have you any link to the evidence?


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

ChilledMatt said:


> I really wasn't being facetious. If you look at the valve I really do think your safety concerns would be laid to rest. Adjusting it to provide a lower group pressure is increasing the failsafe protection. The output from the OPV (I have even heard Gaggia refer to it as this) to the boiler is a piece of silicone hose pushed over a nipple with no clamp. If pressure were to inexplicably climb beyond safe levels the hose would be forced off of the nipple. Your point about the valve being operated outside of its design (although I'm not sure it actually is) leaves it more prone to sticking is IMO also wrong. In my experience spring activated rubber seats are more likely to stick with underuse.
> 
> ^I'm betting you will not take this on board as all day now you have been ignoring the salient facts in these arguments and have even accused others, many of whom have a vast amount of experience, of doing the same thing. The irony!
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


 Ok.


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Blue_Cafe said:


> The dirty water is water that expands from the portafilter (on the dirty side of the shower screen) towards the valve, taking with it the crud dissolved by the cleaner tablets
> The boiler is aluminium. The screen holder is aluminium, the screen is aluminium. The group head is chromed brass.
> This is the first time I have heard that espresso degreaser is corrosive to aluminium! Have you any link to the evidence?


I use Cafiza. Both Cafiza and Cafiza 2 carry an 'unsuitable for aluminium' warning. In the past when I have put aluminium blocks in Cafiza they go slimy and horrible. Not sure if it is actually corrosive, although I suspect it is.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

ChilledMatt said:


> I use Cafiza. Both Cafiza and Cafiza 2 carry an 'unsuitable for aluminium' warning. In the past when I have put aluminium blocks in Cafiza they go slimy and horrible. Not sure if it is actually corrosive, although I suspect it is.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


 Wow. Didn't know that.

I wouldn't be using it on the classic then. I'd stick to the Gaggia stuff.

This is also a reason why I am against backflushing (and perhaps Gaggia as well). There is potential to contaminate the boiler space with the products of the backflush. You don't want cafiza in there if it's corrosive to aluminium.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Its role is solely safety. I am glad you demand others include these on their machines. The potential energy in these can be significant.


 For the Crem I was talking about the actual safety valve on the service boiler. Not an expansion valve which they have, 2 different devices doing different jobs.


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Ok.


Actually I have it arse about face myself. The push fit leads back to the reservoir. Despite this the polythene pipes both in the pump and from the pump I would presume would fail long before pressure got dangerous. Also the pump is not as far as I am aware capable of out putting more than ~15 bar. The boiler has a thermal fuse which is a failsafe for critical thermal pressure. I have never heard of a Classic exploding yet and there are hundreds, if not thousands that have been dialed back to 9 bar for vastly improved espresso.

Tomorrow I am going to rig up a bicycle fork pump and attempt to force pressure back through the opv to see what pops first providing I can make the seals strong enough.

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ChilledMatt said:


> Actually I have it arse about face myself. The push fit leads back to the reservoir. Despite this the polythene pipes both in the pump and from the pump I would presume would fail long before pressure got dangerous. Also the pump is not as far as I am aware capable of out putting more than ~15 bar. The boiler has a thermal fuse which is a failsafe for critical thermal pressure. I have never heard of a Classic exploding yet and there are hundreds, if not thousands that have been dialed back to 9 bar for vastly improved espresso.
> 
> Tomorrow I am going to rig up a bicycle fork pump and attempt to force pressure back through the opv to see what pops first providing I can make the seals strong enough.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


 You won't be able to, the more pressure you put against the Expansion valve (OPV), the tighter it will close. I wrote the document below about 16 years ago now....it will go through some concepts.

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/opv-over-pressure-valve

I know it irritates people who want to call it an OPV, but the reason I call it an *expansion valve* is because that is the primary function of such a valve and the increased use of the term would assist with any misunderstandings. All espresso machines, rotary pump, gear pump, vibe pump, brushed DC mini rotary pump have these valves. In many they play no part in pressure regulation, there Primary function is to relieve the hydraulic pressure caused by water expansion on heating.

A secondary benefit is that the better quality ones used in most prosumer kit can be adjusted down so that the brew pressure is reduced and of course they still fulfil their role to cater for water *expansion* on heating.

One of the problems is when these valves are adjusted too low and the penchant for people to love shots at 6 bar and adjust their expansion valves to deliver that is the risk that air will be drawn back into the brew circuit on cooling or worse, that they continually leak (unnoticed by the user) and if the machine is left on and unused all day the water level in the brew boiler can drop (not good for the heating element) and in Thermosyphon machines a potential reason for an airlock that stops the thermosyphon..

You are quite correct about the pump not being able to burst the tubing (I don't know what they use on the Gaggia, but on the stuff I get involved with I see 24 bar burst pressure PTFE tubing, of course often it's popped off the fittings at less than 20 bar.

The other thing many people don't know is that these valves are usually made in such a way that even if you close them completely there is enough residual spring movement that they can only hold pressure up to say 14 bar in many cases, this is simply for added safety..


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> You won't be able to, the more pressure you put against the Expansion valve (OPV), the tighter it will close. I wrote the document below about 16 years ago now....it will go through some concepts.
> 
> http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/opv-over-pressure-valve
> 
> ...


 My bitch about this is in the Gaggia is that the Gaggia is not a complex machine where expansion valves or over pressure valves are normally installed.

Its a simple pumped heated water machine.

In the Gaggia, the valve is just a safety valve installed to protect the machine and the person from overpressure.

Interestingly enough, i have made the point that i don't think this valve is a working valve. Its a standby unit meant for one-off use only. Ii have been observing my shots stalling (Choking of late) and the pump just stalls. The safety valve doesn't open.

After posting the partlist comment for this yesterday, i notice the opening setting (16-18bar) is higher than the Pmax at zero flow at the pump (15bar) (ignoring bara/barg).

This valve is not meant to be "working" in normal operation. It is a utterly different principle than a overpressure valve or pressure control valve.

If you want pressure control on a Gaggia, put one in it a leave this safety critical part alone is my thoughts anyways.


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> You won't be able to, the more pressure you put against the Expansion valve (OPV), the tighter it will close. I wrote the document below about 16 years ago now....it will go through some concepts.
> http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/opv-over-pressure-valve
> I know it irritates people who want to call it an OPV, but the reason I call it an *expansion valve* is because that is the primary function of such a valve and the increased use of the term would assist with any misunderstandings. All espresso machines, rotary pump, gear pump, vibe pump, brushed DC mini rotary pump have these valves. In many they play no part in pressure regulation, there Primary function is to relieve the hydraulic pressure caused by water expansion on heating.
> A secondary benefit is that the better quality ones used in most prosumer kit can be adjusted down so that the brew pressure is reduced and of course they still fulfil their role to cater for water *expansion* on heating.
> ...


I'm still struggling to fully understand Dave. If forcing pressure back through the valve the wrong way will force it to close tighter, how does it protect from thermal expansion. I'm assuming this expansion can only come from the boiler side.

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ChilledMatt said:


> I'm still struggling to fully understand Dave. If forcing pressure back through the valve the wrong way will force it to close tighter, how does it protect from thermal expansion. I'm assuming this expansion can only come from the boiler side.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


 to save myself time, something like this.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Thermal expansion is a classic example of process shut in and is a pressure vessel killer.

Without expansion valves on closed water systems, you be leakier than a pair of stockings


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> to save myself time, something like this.


So if the pump is to the left and the boiler to the right, how is the valve protecting against thermal expansion.

Thanks for bearing with me

Matt (nice but dim)

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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

ChilledMatt said:


> So if the pump is to the left and the boiler to the right, how is the valve protecting against thermal expansion.
> 
> Thanks for bearing with me
> 
> ...


 Thermal relief valves (The correct names for this) are the same as any other relief valve.

The case above is actually a check valve configuration allowing one way flow only.


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Thermal relief valves (The correct names for this) are the same as any other relief valve.
> The case above is actually a check valve configuration allowing one way flow only.


Yes. I'm sure Dave is aware of this and this is how the valve works in a Classic with spring and rubber. Still not understanding how the valve protects from thermal expansion if the boiler is to the right.

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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Here is a good image.

The safety relief valve is on the boiler space. This is because the boiler space has a void in it so thermal expansion isn't (Normally) an problem. Gas overpressure (Boiling) is.

The expansion valve is on the heat exchanger bundle. This exchanger can be fully flooded and as fluid is incompressible but changes volume when heated, you need a (expansion) relief.

For a proper espresso machine, you need the two safety devices, else you have an accident waiting to happen.

Brew pressure is (i believe) provided by and set by the pump only. The expansion valve is not normally used unless in a fail state.










So, in normal ops, no safety or relief devices are used.

IMO,ATM, YMMV, OBV, ETC


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

ChilledMatt said:


> Yes. I'm sure Dave is aware of this and this is how the valve works in a Classic with spring and rubber. Still not understanding how the valve protects from thermal expansion if the boiler is to the right.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


 It wouldn't be used in that configuration.

Typically, relief valves are only wet on one side


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ChilledMatt said:


> Yes. I'm sure Dave is aware of this and this is how the valve works in a Classic with spring and rubber. Still not understanding how the valve protects from thermal expansion if the boiler is to the right.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


 I used an image from the internet rather than drawing a real expansion valve. Here is a simplified drawing I made of a common place expansion valve on prosumer machines. As the hydraulic pressure increases on the sealed brew circuit side due to water expansion, the rubber pad is pushed from the seat against spring pressure and water flows to the right.. Water trying to flow from right to left simply presses the valve harder against the seat, so it can't flow that way.

This system can be safely exploited to manage brew pressure (in vibration pump machines) by reducing spring tension so that less pressure is needed to push the plunger off it's seat. Clearly if adjusted too low the seat might become a tad leaky. as the springs tension cannot be linear. I can't make it any clearer or simpler than this I am afraid, well not without loosing the essence of what's happening.;.









P.S. Yeah I'm super aware of all this having had just about every type of prosumer valve apart to see how they work. I also don't think any manufacturers would ask my opinion on anything if I didn't know the a lot more than the basics of how machines work


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> This system can be safely exploited to manage brew pressure (in vibration pump machines)


 Disagree. (Strongly)


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

How can REDUCING pressure in the system possibly be a safety concern?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

NJD1977 said:


> How can REDUCING pressure in the system possibly be a safety concern?


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

NJD1977 said:


> How can REDUCING pressure in the system possibly be a safety concern?


 By changing the function of the static safety valve and the only safety device in the pressure envelope to a dynamic pressure regulating valve?

Oh, i dunno, what could possibly go wrong?


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Disagree. (Strongly)


I thought I had a reasonably good understanding of how the valve operates and how a v1 classic works. But, I don't assert my opinions ahead of those more experienced. I also am humble enough to admit when I get things wrong or don't fully understand. Or even if I think I do fully understand, to concede I still may have it wrong. Especially if the more experienced person has design input into espresso machines with decades of experience.

This forum has a wealth of knowledge with many members having expertise in a variety of fields. A great many of these members have extensive experience in v1 Classics and the modification thereof. Yet it is only you saying step away from the valve.

Maybe everybody else has it wrong and you are the Copernicus of the espresso machine world. But I doubt it.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Blue_Cafe said:


> By changing the function of the static safety valve and the only safety device in the pressure envelope to a dynamic pressure regulating valve?
> Oh, i dunno, what could possibly go wrong?


The valve that gaggia have fitted is just a non adjustable OPV. They have done this to stop people incorrectly adjusting the OPV and burning the pump out by INCREASING pressure inadvertently. The only way to increase pressure in the new valve is to fit a stronger/longer spring in the factory fitted OPV.

The assumption that turning a so called 'static' OPV into a 'dynamic' would cause problems is like saying every single larger E61 machine in the world would also be unsafe as this is how they typically operate. Even the old gaggias ran like this for years.

The OPV is a spring and a seal. They fail safe. If the spring snaps, they open and fail. If the rubber seal weakens, it leaks pressure off. Nothing about the amendment could possibly cause pressure to INCREASE.

No one has to do anything to their machine if they don't want to but suggesting this is a safety concern is incorrect.


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## Rebel (Jan 14, 2020)

Blue_Cafe said:


> By changing the function of the static safety valve and the only safety device in the pressure envelope to a dynamic pressure regulating valve?
> 
> Oh, i dunno, what could possibly go wrong?


 Merely a few hundred thousand people have reduced OPV for about two decades without problems. But we'll all trust your "feels" and change back to be "safe."


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

ChilledMatt said:


> I thought I had a reasonably good understanding of how the valve operates and how a v1 classic works. But, I don't assert my opinions ahead of those more experienced. I also am humble enough to admit when I get things wrong or don't fully understand. Or even if I think I do fully understand, to concede I still may have it wrong. Especially if the more experienced person has design input into espresso machines with decades of experience.
> 
> This forum has a wealth of knowledge with many members having expertise in a variety of fields. A great many of these members have extensive experience in v1 Classics and the modification thereof. Yet it is only you saying step away from the valve.
> 
> ...


 I know its seems almost religious blasphemy to go against this idea that there is such a thing as an OPV valve in a Gaggia classic and its sat there to regulate brew pressures and that changing it is not only perfectly legitimate, but should be encouraged.

I've explained as much as i can why the above is all completely wrong.

One of your "Champions" of modding the valve thinks its a 12bar pressure regulating device despite it clearly being labeled otherwise by Gaggia themselves in the partlist.

Another one of your "Champions" thinks its a simple mirroring of the gubbins of an e61 machine, despite that clearly not being the case.

Every other poster keep insisting this is a OPV despite Gaggias labeling it as something else. This is Gaggia btw, who invented Espresso.

And most other poster probably just think i am trolling. I am surprised i am not banned yet but hey ho, rowing against the current was never easy.

Some posters think these valves fail safe because its just a spring.

Some posters think the only source of over pressure is the pump.

And so on and so forth.

So for the record, as i see it.

The valve is a safety valve. Its job is only to protect the system, nothing else. It is not designed to open in anything other than an emergency. It is set at a pressure higher than the static pump head. It is not there to protect against the pump. It is there to protect against boiler runaway, thermal expansion (Unlikely) or boiler space contamination. In the event of large amount of gas being produced by the above (or something else) it will open. Brew pressure is set by the puck form and limited by the pump. (This is exactly the same as a HE/Ex machine). In both devices, the safety devices are intended to be static, unused and in a permanent state of readiness.

This is important because you don't want your safety devices working all the time or actually, at all. You want them to sit there doing nothing, just guarding the system. Running fluid through them or making them work increases the risk of malfunction.

Yes, the relief valve on a gaggia can be hacked to regulate pressure, but it's a hack. Most hacks work. However sometimes they don't.

The forum is full of complaints of jammed, failed, blocked valves caused by wear, tear and contamination. Again, you can argue well, that the safety valve has been used without problem on many devices, but it is still subject to the problems of water flow and wear and contamination etc. Its not a stretch to see that crud in the tank (read about the bloke with mould in his) can get pumped past the safety flow valve and dry out, jamming the piston and causing the system to over pressure. Its not a stretch to envisage the spring breaking and under high fluid vibration, getting jammed in the seals or mechanism and stopping the valve from opening fully. Its needs to open fully and freely in an emergency to allow a rapid pressure spike to be removed from the system a pressure spike many times that possible from the pump. By making this valve work, rather than sleep, you are putting the device at risk.

This is not a matter to be dismissed easily. Was really concerns me is that the coffee community sell it as some sort of right of passage to good espresso. There is a industry built around bastardizing this safety system.

Ask yourself, are you happy that you have significantly and completely changed the function of the only safety device in this boiler system.

From a design, systems perspective, you've removed the safety device. You are now relying on a dynamic pressure control device to help you if you need it.

If you want to modify the brew pressure of the Gaggia classic as imparted by the pump curves in its original configuration, then add a simple tee connection to the pump discharge and fit one of these "OPV's" and run the output back to the reservoir. Its a clean, easy and safe solution which does not impinge on the critical safety systems designed in the machine.

If you want to ignore the above and just go at the safety valve with your 3rd party springs and what not, do so, but be sure you really understand what you are doing, and the potential consequences.

If you don't really understand the principles of process safety in high pressure boiler systems, (And i think most of us here don't) then stay away from it and just add the bypass. Also, if you don't understand the above to your own satisfaction ( and that means knowing the systems enough to be able to read a parts list....) i would suggest you don't encourage others to do same.

There. i have said what i have on the issue. If you want to run the risk of hoping that your newly reappropriated pressure control valve never jams in a closed condition, fill your boots....

Edit:

In wondering if the above is correct or nonsense, look to the replies from the members who peddle this hack.

I expect much buffoonery and ridicule, but few actual hard arguments against  Thats should tell you all you need to know.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

NJD1977 said:


> The valve that gaggia have fitted is just a non adjustable OPV. They have done this to stop people incorrectly adjusting the OPV and burning the pump out by INCREASING pressure inadvertently. The only way to increase pressure in the new valve is to fit a stronger/longer spring in the factory fitted OPV.
> 
> The assumption that turning a so called 'static' OPV into a 'dynamic' would cause problems is like saying every single larger E61 machine in the world would also be unsafe as this is how they typically operate. Even the old gaggias ran like this for years.
> 
> ...


 You are way, way , way out of your depth with your understanding of the technical processes involved in the pressure process design of these machines. (i am not claiming to be an expert).

You'll pull a shot on one where i couldn't but you are misunderstood when it comes to the piping and plumbing.

With due respect.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Norvin said:


> Most people who own SBDU Gaggias on this forum own aluminium boiler V1s. You consistently answer questions as if they have V2s like your own. Please learn the difference. The V2 had a safety device above the pump, we are talking about the OPV found on the V1s.





Rebel said:


> Merely a few hundred thousand people have reduced OPV for about two decades without problems. But we'll all trust your "feels" and change back to be "safe."


 Well, which one is it huh?

The V1 and V3 are different to the V2 in design yet the logic and proof for adjustment is the same?

The safety devices in the V2 and V3 versions were changed by Gaggia to stop users adjusting/reappropriating them and somehow the logic for the safety and viability of this hack is valid over the decades, unchanged regardless of version?

It is self defeating logic.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I've just booked a trip. This is where I am going.... bye all


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Blue_Cafe said:


> You are way, way , way out of your depth with your understanding of the technical processes involved in the pressure process design of these machines. (i am not claiming to be an expert).
> You'll pull a shot on one where i couldn't but you are misunderstood when it comes to the piping and plumbing.
> 
> With due respect.


Then do please educate me exactly where I am wrong and then we can all learn.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

@DavecUKEnjoy the trip 😉


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

NJD1977 said:


> Blue_Cafe said:
> 
> 
> > You are way, way , way out of your depth with your understanding of the technical processes involved in the pressure process design of these machines. (i am not claiming to be an expert).
> ...


 Your 1st point.

"it's a non adjustable OPV"

Its a safety valve.

Show me where Gaggia says otherwise.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

https://www.helpguide.org/articles/mental-disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder.htm


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Over 24,000 members. If I came on here saying the earth was flat or the moon landings were faked, someone would pipe up that they agreed with me. Yet noone...

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

ratty said:


> https://www.helpguide.org/articles/mental-disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder.htm


 Perhaps this would be a better read for you

https://www.theprocesspiping.com/introduction-pressure-safety-valve/


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Your 1st point.
> "it's a non adjustable OPV"
> Its a safety valve.
> Show me where Gaggia says otherwise.


Ok. It's not an OPV according to Gaggia. (Even though it does exactly the same thing that an OPV does)

Can we move onto my other reasons for being way out of my depth other than what we call the valve on the top.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

NJD1977 said:


> Ok. It's not an OPV according to Gaggia. (Even though it does exactly the same thing that an OPV does)
> 
> Can we move onto my other reasons for being way out of my depth other than what we call the valve on the top.


 I am happy we are getting somewhere and understanding that this isn't a valve for controlling pressure.

Probably the most important point in my argument.


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## Rebel (Jan 14, 2020)

Blue_Cafe said:


> It is self defeating logic.


 Yes, your logic is self defeating. Merely point out one documented case of a problem with the adjustment in the past two decades; don't care which version. Surely there must be hundreds if your theory is correct.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Rebel said:


> Yes, your logic is self defeating. Merely point out one documented case of a problem with the adjustment in the past two decades; don't care which version. Surely there must be hundreds if your theory is correct.


 Well, there is something i just learned.

Exploding espresso machines are very common:

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=exploding+espresso+machine

Didn't think it was so common to be honest,


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Blue_Cafe said:


> I am happy we are getting somewhere and understanding that this isn't a valve for controlling pressure.
> 
> Probably the most important point in my argument.


So that's it? That's all I've learned to correct how way way way out of depth I was?

Come on, I need some more lessons on the technical processes of the pressure in the system.

Also if it isn't a valve for controlling pressure, why does it have a pressure rating? Does this THING not have anything to do with pressure?


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

*The valve that gaggia have fitted is just a non adjustable OPV*.

We got that straightened out above

*They have done this to stop people incorrectly adjusting the OPV*

No, they have changed it to non adjustable to stop hacking full stop

*and burning the pump out*

The pump can pump against a dead head for a short time(See curves). The valve opening pressure is rated higher than the pump zero flow pressure so this valve doesn't need to open in a zero flow condition

*by INCREASING pressure inadvertently*.

Lock it down, the system can take Pmax from the pump

*The only way to increase pressure in the new valve is to fit a stronger/longer spring in the factory fitted OPV.*

You just said above its a non adjustable valve? The only way to change its rating it is to replace it. Otherwise its not factory fitted, in fact what are you saying?

*The assumption that turning a so called 'static' OPV into a 'dynamic' would cause problems is like saying every single larger E61 machine in the world would also be unsafe as this is how they typically operate. Even the old gaggias ran like this for years.*

The E61 design and Gaggia are utterly different. Its hot water, is about the only similar bit.

I can't convince you that changing valve function is a problem if you can't see that yourself. Its to big a leap in logic

*The OPV is a spring and a seal. They fail safe. If the spring snaps, they open and fail. If the rubber seal weakens, it leaks pressure off. Nothing about the amendment could possibly cause pressure to INCREASE.*

Its a static spring and seal. Not dynamic. It's not designed for open oscillations from the pump. It's designed to be shut and stay shut.

Why do you think the set pressure>pump static head? You are only looking at one failure case. Don't forget, you've now made this valve move 50 times/second. Failure in that scenario is utterly different. Don't believe me? Go and google Ulka pump failures with the springs failing and jamming in what is effectively an identical arrangement (Spring in a tube).

*No one has to do anything to their machine if they don't want to but suggesting this is a safety concern is incorrect.*

Please explain how messing with the system safety device isn't a safety concern?


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Blue_Cafe said:


> *The valve that gaggia have fitted is just a non adjustable OPV*.
> 
> We got that straightened out above
> 
> ...


 Good, we've now got something to debate. My points of discussion are noted above.


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## shodjoe1 (Apr 25, 2018)

I think honestly, is time to stop feeding this topic☝.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Ooh. Here comes the moral police lol.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

NJD1977 said:


> Good, we've now got something to debate. My points of discussion are noted above.


 How about looking at this in a different way.

We know springs change stiffness considerably when used over time or when subjected to high frequency (see pump failures).

We know that high oscillation of a bearing surface can cause wear and we know that valve seals don't like constant cycling.

I can't comment but surely the above has a detrimental change to the opening and closing response of this valve and thus over time, brew pressures.

Why not see that then and just leave it be and install the bypass. This bypass can then be removed completely and cleaned and serviced (or easily replaced for pennies).

Leave the expensive and (difficult tbh) OPV *cough* valve alone.

Mr Shades can sell his valves with a tee and a bit of tubing. The clueless can install them with impunity. Everyone is happy?


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Blue_Cafe said:


> How about looking at this in a different way.
> We know springs change stiffness considerably when used over time or when subjected to high frequency (see pump failures).
> We know that high oscillation of a bearing surface can cause wear and we know that valve seals don't like constant cycling.
> 
> ...


I think this just comes back to the whole safety debate.

Will the Mr Shades conversion fail before the factory fitted one? Definitely. All 'dynamic' OPVs fail every few years.

Will the Mr Shades one cause a safety concern. Definitely not as it can only fail-safe.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

NJD1977 said:


> I think this just comes back to the whole safety debate.
> 
> Will the Mr Shades conversion fail before the factory fitted one? Definitely. All 'dynamic' OPVs fail every few years.
> 
> Will the Mr Shades one cause a safety concern. Definitely not as it can only fail-safe.


 Well we have come full circle so I will leave it here and agree to disagree


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

A video from Gaggia UK discusses specifically the modifying the OPV on pre-2015s. I think the link takes you the end where it is discussed.

Raj Beadle talks to James Adams about Gaggia Classic Machines - Gaggia Caffe TV

👍


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Agentb said:


> A video from Gaggia UK discusses specifically the modifying the OPV on pre-2015s. I think the link takes you the end where it is discussed.


Wow! Interesting machines. More on his website. https://www.jowolfe.co.uk/

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Agentb said:


> A video from Gaggia UK discusses specifically the modifying the OPV on pre-2015s. I think the link takes you the end where it is discussed.
> 
> Raj Beadle talks to James Adams about Gaggia Classic Machines - Gaggia Caffe TV
> 
> 👍


 Interesting video.

I am not quite sure how a video of man doing these mods in his garden shed is supposed to be validation? Is it because he is showing them to Raj on Gaggia TV? He just thought they were interesting. No doubt he wouldn't actually recommending doing this, anymore than recommending putting on the PID which this gentleman "Made himself".

Its just a demo

But its a good demonstration of how critical thinking and reason by oneself is oft missing in these hobby mods.

There is some irony here, not least from one of the champions of your post. I like Raj, he is honest and forthright. and i like Gaggia UK, again, honest and forthright. If we are holding them up as candles of knowledge and virtue with the Gaggia classic, i assume this forum will now promote the disuse of backflushing the classic, a practice which like the "OPV" mod, has its origins in the e61 machines but has no relevance to the Classic in any way as it's an utterly different machine. A practice not advised (anywhere) by Gaggia themselves and a practice in which the fine gentlemen on the video (Gaggia UK) have specifically said NOT to do as it can damage the boiler.

No? Still gonna ignore that one then,

Or can we still label those who think the V2 is a decent machine as "utterly bonkers", Those like Raj, who, signed up to the Gaggiausers forum specifically to dispel the myths being peddled about it by the High priests of Espresso. A post in which he articulately explains the changes and the improvements and reasons for them. I suppose the members here who think he is bonkers (whilst holding him up as a beacon of light) where the same ones to accuse him of being a sales shill in the same forum thread?

Oddly enough, aside from rather disappointing attempts to discredit the post by promoting mental health prejudice, and a video of a shed dweller, nobody has actually tried to counter the opinion with thought and reason.

Well, when you have no facts, all you have is ridicule huh.

So to those who follow the crowd doing this, and as always in any hobby, do your own research!


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Someone please just ban this bloody idiot

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

MrShades said:


> Someone please just ban this bloody idiot
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Didn't take long did it?

You've tried with the insults,

You've tried with the mental health slurs

You've tried doxing

You've tried ridicule.

So now you are demanding for me to be banned lol

Because i dare have a reasoned opinion which is not yours.

There is a thread on here about free speech. Perhaps you should go and read that a bit.

Or, speak to Gaggia, Tell them you promote backflushing, think the V2 is POS and that you sell parts to change the thermal and safety profiles of their machines. When you have a letter from them saying that's all hunky dory, post it on the forum and we can all move on 

Or put me on ignore.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MrShades said:


> Someone please just ban this bloody idiot


 I *wouldn't* be in favour of that. He is wrong on key points, has conflated fact and fiction together to weave a confusing story that goes nowhere. My hope is that he will learn with more experience. At the moment he is defending an erroneous position he has adopted....would do better to take a moment (a long one) to reflect and review.

I don't mind people being wrong, or lacking knowledge and debating their point. I do look to opt out of a discussion when I feel the person isn't getting anything from the experience. Clearly @Blue_Cafe is no longer learning from this experience and simply defending a position. So no point me wasting any more time trying to inform how espresso machines work.

I now fully understand the saying "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing" as it doesn't just affect the person with a little knowledge. There is no roaming in the TWZ, so this post was tricky!

P.S. I may not agree with what he says, but sadly feel compelled to defend his right to say it even if it's wrong (as long as it's not personal, or business affecting).


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> I *wouldn't* be in favour of that. He is wrong on key points, has conflated fact and fiction together to weave a confusing story that goes nowhere. My hope is that he will learn with more experience. At the moment he is defending an erroneous position he has adopted....would do better to take a moment (a long one) to reflect and review.
> 
> I don't mind people being wrong, or lacking knowledge and debating their point. I do look to opt out of a discussion when I feel the person isn't getting anything from the experience. Clearly @Blue_Cafe is no longer learning from this experience and simply defending a position. So no point me wasting any more time trying to inform how espresso machines work.
> 
> ...


 Thank you.

Agreeing to disagree is the foundation of a civil society


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

I am very tempted to put you on ignore, yes - but in some bizarre way your misguided rants amuse me.

As I said before - though you seemed to think that making any mention of anything you've posted in the public domain elsewhere isn't allowed on here and is "doxing"... You've only owned a used V2 Classic for about a month and by your own admission prior to that you had no knowledge of espresso machines and hadn't used one; yet two weeks into your ownership you are telling everyone not to backflush as it's dangerous/unclean and now you're coming up with all of this. You must have had an incredible last few weeks if you've gained many years of experience and knowledge in such a brief period.

You can think what you want and write what you want - and hopefully by now anyone reading this thread will appreciate how much your views/experience/knowledge are worth, when compared to largely opposing views/experience/knowledge of everyone else on this thread...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Your back peddling is noted 👍


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Interesting video.
> I am not quite sure how a video of man doing these mods in his garden shed is supposed to be validation? Is it because he is showing them to Raj on Gaggia TV? He just thought they were interesting.


Raj thought they were interesting and was offering them for sale direct from Gaggia UK.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Agreeing to disagree is the foundation of a civil society


 Just remember as Confucius said (supposedly):



"I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand."


"By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest."


"Acquire new knowledge whilst thinking over the old, and you may become a teacher of others."


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> Just remember as Confucius said (supposedly):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Yea, or: "Look before you leap"

Which is what i did when i got my V2 and is the reason why we are where we are in this thread.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Blue_Cafe said:


> I am not quite sure how a video of man doing these mods in his garden shed is supposed to be validation?


 I did not say it was, but when i listened i heard and drew these conclusions

Gaggia UK chose to sell his refurbished machines with a one year warranty, from their website.

Gaggia UK chose to partner with him and demo his machines on their web site.

Gaggia UK chose to mention this OPV mod in their demo on their web site. If you watch the video it gets referenced earlier as well, so it was not an "off the cuff" remark.

The conclusions you draw appear different from mine. 👍


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Agentb said:


> I did not say it was, but when i listened i heard and drew these conclusions
> 
> Gaggia UK chose to sell his refurbished machines with a one year warranty, from their website.
> 
> ...


 Just "Refurbished", Not re-engineered.

Bit of a difference tbh.

The Junction 32 seems to be an approved seller arrangement. I have no doubt whatsoever that technically, Gaggia UK would not approve or sponsor these mods. If you think that is so, i would argue you are being naive.


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Just "Refurbished", Not re-engineered.
> Bit of a difference tbh.
> The Junction 32 seems to be an approved seller arrangement. I have no doubt whatsoever that technically, Gaggia UK would not approve or sponsor these mods. If you think that is so, i would argue you are being naive.


Gaggia would also not recommend users open there machines and take out the boiler for a thorough descale and clean. Doesn't mean it isn't the correct course of action if you know what you are doing though.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> Just remember as Confucius said (supposedly):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 And Mark Twain said; "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Interesting video.
> 
> I am not quite sure how a video of man doing these mods in his garden shed is supposed to be validation? Is it because he is showing them to Raj on Gaggia TV? He just thought they were interesting. No doubt he wouldn't actually recommending doing this, anymore than recommending putting on the PID which this gentleman "Made himself".


 When I started out with this hobby over 17 years ago, I reviewed machines and learned, then I modified them and learned *(in my Kitchen and "garden shed")*...one day I realised I could do better but lacked the facilities and equipment to do so. The people who did have the resources and facilities were the manufacturers. The only place, and way I could get my ideas put into practice was Italian espresso machine manufacturers. The only one I had a link with at the time was Izzo where I knew the head of sales. Over a dinner more than 16 years ago, he said to me can you really design a better machine, I said yes. I produced a top level design for a dual boiler with a rotary pump, internal tank, PID with an E61 group, all in a box the same size of your existing Izzo Alex HX......so I did and it became the Duetto. Initially the prototype didn't have Steam boiler on/off as I requested or a PID...but I got all that changed.

*I continued to work in my "Garden Shed"*, it took many years of trying to convince manufacturers to make small incremental changes and to build a good reputation amongst manufacturers, sure some hated me (when I made bad comments about their machines in reviews, or technical feedback) but they respected the knowledge. *I still work in my "Garden Shed" *but now I pick and choose my projects, Grinders, Roasters, Machines. It's still just a hobby...I dabble....the Niche Grinder work was a bit of fun for me and I wanted to see something more accessible for the home user, The Amazon Dalian (we needed a good 1kg roaster in the UK) and Gene cafe were more fun and the work with Lelit very rewarding because the tech guy is a very clever guy....and I like clever people.

Even though *I work in my "Garden Shed"* (it's actually a garage workshop but I'm saying shed for effect), at Host 2019 in Milan I was most surprised that most of the prosumer manufacturers knew who I was and respected my work!

*Just because someone works out of a garden shed, don't judge them because they can drive significant change.* Sure I'm not a business and I admit it's just a hobby for me....but a hobby and responsibility I take very seriously. I'm always mindful that people may make a significant investment based on my reviews and work and I'm quite ethical about what I will and won't review. Most people I have met do business the same way, at least the ones I deal with do.

You may upgrade to a prosumer machine one day....if you do I shall smile at the thought that you will be using at least one of the technologies or ideas I introduced and never even realise


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> When I started out with this hobby over 17 years ago, I reviewed machines and learned, then I modified them and learned *(in my Kitchen and "garden shed")*...one day I realised I could do better but lacked the facilities and equipment to do so. The people who did have the resources and facilities were the manufacturers. The only place, and way I could get my ideas put into practice was Italian espresso machine manufacturers. The only one I had a link with at the time was Izzo where I knew the head of sales. Over a dinner more than 16 years ago, he said to me can you really design a better machine, I said yes. I produced a top level design for a dual boiler with a rotary pump, internal tank, PID with an E61 group, all in a box the same size of your existing Izzo Alex HX......so I did and it became the Duetto. Initially the prototype didn't have Steam boiler on/off as I requested or a PID...but I got all that changed.
> 
> *I continued to work in my "Garden Shed"*, it took many years of trying to convince manufacturers to make small incremental changes and to build a good reputation amongst manufacturers, sure some hated me (when I made bad comments about their machines in reviews, or technical feedback) but they respected the knowledge. *I still work in my "Garden Shed" *but now I pick and choose my projects, Grinders, Roasters, Machines. It's still just a hobby...I dabble....the Niche Grinder work was a bit of fun for me and I wanted to see something more accessible for the home user, The Amazon Dalian (we needed a good 1kg roaster in the UK) and Gene cafe were more fun and the work with Lelit very rewarding because the tech guy is a very clever guy....and I like clever people.
> 
> ...


 And your point is what exactly?

Congrats on being able to use the machines and fiddle with them. It means nought with regards to this thread though.


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Blue_Cafe said:


> And your point is what exactly?
> Congrats on being able to use the machines and fiddle with them. It means nought with regards to this thread though.


Do you not hear how disrespectful you sound?

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

ChilledMatt said:


> Do you not hear how disrespectful you sound?
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


 Ah, this was where you meant to post.

No, its not disrespectful. I am sure if Dave is happy to quote Confucius, he will be happy for the apprentice to question the master..

Anyway, i don't do sycophancy. It's just a forum for discussion. This isn't the real world. nobody needs to get upset.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Blue_Cafe said:


> And your point is what exactly?
> 
> Congrats on being able to use the machines and fiddle with them. It means nought with regards to this thread though.


 It's *naught* not nought in the context you are using it.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/naught

My point is....now best expressed as:










I swear my finger is hovering over the ignore button...


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> It's *naught* not nought in the context you are using it.
> 
> https://www.dictionary.com/browse/naught
> 
> My point is....now best expressed as:


 Oh. we really are moving down the ladder of discontent huh. Spelling insults.

Sorry, i am a little dyslexic. I apologize.

The more you guys respond, the worse you make yourselves look.


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Ah, this was where you meant to post.
> 
> No, its not disrespectful. I am sure if Dave is happy to quote Confucius, he will be happy for the apprentice to question the master..
> 
> Anyway, i don't do sycophancy. It's just a forum for discussion. This isn't the real world. nobody needs to get upset.


It is the apprentice, no, the new apprentice, telling the master he has been doing it wrong all this time

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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

ChilledMatt said:


> It is the apprentice, no*T* the new apprentice, telling the master he has been doing it wrong all this time*.*
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


 Careful, you will have Dave the forum grammar-wolf on your back. 😄


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Careful, you will have Dave the forum grammar-wolf on your back.


Er, no.

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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

ChilledMatt said:


> Er, no.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


Oh, I see! I missed off a comma. Soz.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Careful, you will have Dave the forum grammar-wolf on your back. 😄


 No I'm not a grammar wolf and your error was not grammar but something called a "malaproprism" or "acyrologia"

e.g. I think I am grinding too "course".....rather than "coarse"


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Can we caaaalm down please and get back to the coffee related stuff.


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Can we caaaalm down please and get back to the coffee related stuff.


Any chance that could be instigated forum wide?...particularly with regards to "coffee related stuff"


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Blue_Cafe said:


> I have no doubt whatsoever that technically, Gaggia UK would not approve or sponsor these mods.


 Gaggia UK are reselling these with the OPV valve reset with a 12 month warranty.

Do you have a source which states otherwise? If so please share it.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Agentb said:


> Gaggia UK are reselling these with the OPV valve reset with a 12 month warranty.
> 
> Do you have a source which states otherwise? If so please share it.


 Where are you finding that? (Not doubting you btw, just can't find it)


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Where are you finding that? (Not doubting you btw, just can't find it)


 Try the Gaggia UK link i posted. It's about 5 seconds in.

However, you seemed to have no doubt, so please could you provide your source.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Agentb said:


> Try the Gaggia UK link i posted. It's about 5 seconds in.
> 
> However, you seemed to have no doubt, so please could you provide your source.


 I did watch the link. They are just reselling these for James, no?

From the website: "Our Shop at* Junction 32* now shows a range of machines which are customised by James Adams"

I get "we are giving a 1 year warranty on our website"

It would seem to me, that there two things going on here, Refurbished machines in standard trim which are for sale with a warranty and sold by Gaggia.

Retrimmed machined, modified by Gaggia and being displayed/resold by Gaggia in agreement with James.

i don't see the two being different tbh.

Interesting that Raj said that the pressure safety valve rating on the V1 doesn't need to be changed but a customer insisted james did this. and that you can't change them on the newer models.

I can see how you've jumped on this as proof that Gaggia validate the hacks, I see it as proof that you shouldn't and don't need to mess with them.

YMMV obviously.


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Blue_Cafe said:


> I did watch the link. They are just reselling these for James, no?
> From the website: "Our Shop at* Junction 32* now shows a range of machines which are customised by James Adams"
> I get "we are giving a 1 year warranty on our website"
> It would seem to me, that there two things going on here, Refurbished machines in standard trim which are for sale with a warranty and sold by Gaggia.
> ...


Saying the pressure safety valve doesn't need changing is not the same as saying that to do so is dangerous though is it. If it indeed was dangerous, surely Raj would have taken the opportunity to mention it.

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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Blue_Cafe said:


> It would seem to me, that there two things going on here, Refurbished machines in standard trim which are for sale with a warranty and sold by Gaggia.
> 
> Retrimmed machined, modified by Gaggia and being displayed/resold by Gaggia in agreement with James.
> 
> i don't see the two being different tbh.


 So do we now do agree Gaggia are selling these machines with a warranty? I expect it is a mutually beneficial arrangement for both parties.



Blue_Cafe said:


> I can see how you've jumped on this as proof that Gaggia validate the hacks, I see it as proof that you shouldn't and don't need to mess with them.


 I would not say proof that validate the "hacks" (again your words) but statements like



Blue_Cafe said:


> I have no doubt whatsoever that technically, Gaggia UK would not approve or sponsor these mods. If you think that is so, i would argue you are being naive.


 Selling a product with a warranty on the company website - is approval and sponsorship of the product as sold.

So please explain where i am being naive?


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