# EK-43 Grind Speed



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

So basically the thought has been running around my head of what makes grinder 'good'. I know there are no specific specs that automatically equal a great grinder, but as far as I can tell there seem to be two things that seem to pretty reliably produce better grounds, those being bigger burrs and (coming from hand grinding) a slower grind.

So if this is true, would it be possible in a home environment to mod the EK43 to actually grind slower. As with those massive burrs it chews through coffee so fast it wouldn't give it too much of a handicap, and could possibly improve the grind consistency even more.

So what are peoples thoughts? Am I totally off the ball or could this make sense?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I think that the EK has a mechanism that starts breaking the beans down before they even reach the burrs and this mech also regulates the speed that beans are fed into the burrs. That being said it grinds pretty bloody quickly









Would it be as easy as dropping the voltage on a grinder to slow the motor speed? Seem logical that this would be the case. You could maybe sue some kind of variac to lower the input voltage and to customise the grind speed.

Guess the same goes for any grinder, not just the EK.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Think Tom (DSC) might be able to shed some light on this. As Spence says, EK has an augur system to break up the beans prior to grinding. I would worry about the impact on the grinder's motor of deliberately running it below design spec but what do I know?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I guess it would affect the torque of the motor as well, if the torque is less then there is more chance of stressing/jamming the motor.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Would worry how running the motor outside its design spec would impact on other aspects of design parameters. but I'm no engineer.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Going from current reports the EK grind distribution sounds OK from stock


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> I think that the EK has a mechanism that starts breaking the beans down before they even reach the burrs and this mech also regulates the speed that beans are fed into the burrs. That being said it grinds pretty bloody quickly
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you just drop /lower the input voltage it also drops the motor power. It could stall /stress the motor.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Xpenno said:


> Going from current reports the EK grind distribution sounds OK from stock


It does indeed, but the only way is up









I didn't realise running a motor slower could stress it, forst thought was that it would stress it less, shows what I know about motors!


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> It does indeed, but the only way is up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think it's probably worst when the motor starts up with beans in the blades as there is a lot more force in play here. When the blades are spinning you have momentum on your side. If the starting torque isn't enough to spin the blades then you end up stalling which is never a good thing.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> as far as I can tell there seem to be two things that seem to pretty reliably produce better grounds, those being bigger burrs and (coming from hand grinding) a slower grind.


I don't think there's much evidence to back your slower = better idea.

My Robur and HG One have the same burr set. The HG grinds slower, but I wouldn't say one consistently makes better espresso than the other.

In ease of use, however, the Robur is effortless and much faster, while the HG excels at single dosing and instant grind changes.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I'm not 100% sure, but I'd be willing to bet that the AC motors fitted in most grinders set at a nominal speed and are not really suited to be speed controlled. Not saying that there isn't motors out there which can't be controlled, but those tend to need quite a lot of kit to drive them and are either quite biggish and / or expensive. Ideally you'd want to see speed curves for those motors which tell you what torque you can expect at certain speeds, but even if torque isn't a massive issue on the lower end, it might not be so great to run a motor slower as it might overheat.

To makes things slightly more complicated the EK is a slightly different animal, as it's got an auger and might need a speed above a certain level to feed the beans properly. 'Straight through' conical grinders (HG1 for example) can turn at any given speed as the beans simply pass vertically through the burrs, but with flat burrs you need some centrifugal force to push them outwards, toward the cutting faces of the burrs. That or a hopper full of beans to weight everything down, although I'm pretty sure there is a minimal speed to run at in order to get the beans feeding.

As Andy says there currently isn't anything backing up the 'slower -> better' idea. It sounds appealing, but I'm not sure that's the case.

Regards,

T.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dsc said:


> As Andy says there currently isn't anything backing up the 'slower -> better' idea. It sounds appealing, but I'm not sure that's the case.
> 
> .


Yea, an incorrect assumption it would seem.

So it seems that the idea of a 'slow' EK43 wouldn't really work out. But what about the idea in principle? Do large burrs and slow speed necessarily correlate with a better grind, as Andy says there is not a noticeable difference in the cup with his Robur/HG One? As most grinders with big burr sets are made for a commercial environment, and thus grind quickly, would a grinder based on the principle of big burrs+ slow speed actually contribute to a better grind?

In chasing the ultimate grind distribution with reduction of fines, what would be the 'ideal' way to create a grinder?


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

The principle behind the clima pro is slow grinds and a constant temperature. That grinder is unique amongst flat burr grinders as it doesn't require the centrifuge to throw the grinds out therefore allowing slower speeds.

They seem to have come to the conclusion that speed and temperature correlate and do so to the detriment of the grind.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I hadn't heard about the Clima Pro, interesting article here for others in the same position.

I had seen the same grinder under the Mythos name however, I think Seattle Coffee gear have a youtube spot on the different Mythos Grinders.

It's interesting that a lower temperature is not desirable for a good grind, but simply the 'right' temperature, in this case 35-45deg.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Another great article from the guys at 3fe and why they switched from the EK43 to the Clima Pro. They do, however, say the switch was purely for volume reasons, and the EK43 is still the king of the roost when it comes to low volumes.

Here


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I dont think grind quality is the issue with the EK for espresso, its more the practical transferring of the dose into the portafilter basket.

Someone needs to wack a doser on one


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Point made about advances in espresso machines not being matched by developments in grinders is valid. Welcome seeing some more data to support the temp claims of the Clima Pro.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

This also reminds me of guns. The old method of packing the barrel with the charge and the shot (EK)...then the leap in progress to contained modular cartridges aka bullets .....perhaps the preweighed doses could be in containers in some sort of magazine chamber linked to the hopper.....


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Yeah - belt driven EK - like it!


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> perhaps the preweighed doses could be in containers in some sort of magazine chamber linked to the hopper.....


I know what you're thinking, is it only the stale stuff left? Or is it the Wendelboe that'll blow your head clean off? well you've got to ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky?........

Well do ya? Punk?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Yeah the Clima Pro is impressive, had a few shots from it and seen it in action.

Not sure if the dosing is as accurate still as single dosing (unlikely)


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

It'll be interesting to see who wins the cold v warm grinds battle


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> perhaps the preweighed doses could be in containers in some sort of magazine chamber linked to the hopper.....


Kinda like along the lines of the Versalab?


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> This also reminds me of guns. The old method of packing the barrel with the charge and the shot (EK)...then the leap in progress to contained modular cartridges aka bullets .....perhaps the preweighed doses could be in containers in some sort of magazine chamber linked to the hopper.....


This has been done by Versalab with their dosing hopper system. Also by hobbyists like CS Lennon who more or less took a conventional Italian doser, filled it with whole beans, and mounted it above the grinder. Six shooter indeed.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> It'll be interesting to see who wins the cold v warm grinds battle


Certainly will - article was a bit short on detail about the method behind the the research.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

AndyS said:


> This has been done by Versalab with their dosing hopper system. Also by hobbyists like CS Lennon who more or less took a conventional Italian doser, filled it with whole beans, and mounted it above the grinder. Six shooter indeed.


The argument made by shops is the failure to maintain workflow efficiency when single dosing.

Maybe we need the EK-47 assault grinder


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Clima-Pro was apparently based on blind tests done on various grind temps, that might as well be made up, we'll never know I guess. It is possible that the range of temps the grinds are delivered from the Clima-Pro is simply the easiest to achieve from a control point of view and the blind test theory was added to it as an after-thought? sort of like bending theory to match the practical side?

Due to various reasons the ZR71 spins at 50RPM, if the clash tomorrow happens coffeechap will be able to experience for himself whether it makes a difference or not.

Regards,

T.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Reading the piece had me thinking about anti-ageing creams flogged ad nauseam with spurious reference to 'clinical trials'. If reference is made to scientific scrutiny, let's see how they set about undertaking the research and let's see the data. We've been hear before haven't we - baristas teaming up with the boffins.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

The article linked before says:

"So, if temperature is a major factor for grinder consistency, what's the ideal temperature for grinding espresso? The four champs, who consulting on this project with researchers from the University of Alcona, set themselves to figuring this out, and after much temperature probing and microwaving, they determined the best range was between 35 and 45 degrees Celsius. This temp range produced the most consistent and tastiest shots of espresso. What if there were a grinder that only operated within this range?"

It seems that this was done via blind tasting, but it's not all clear, even if data was available it would probably be just personal notes saying what was tasty and what wasn't, later on matched with different temperatures. It also seems that the testing was done not on the grinder itself, but with a batch of ground coffee, heated up to a certain level. If that's the case, there's loads of variables which might've affected the end result, so I'm a bit sceptical here.

What we'd need to see is testing done by people not related with NS, who didn't not participate in the design process. It's a bit like Matt Perger shouting that Mahls are great, when he's face is sticker'd on all EK43s.

Regards,

T.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Bang on Tom.....


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

For me I appreciate advances in grinding, however I think there are loads of capable grinders and as with all things something needs a USP, personally I think the redesign and the slow motor would have been enough. I think the best idea would be, for those who can, take a step back and build a new grinder ( I am waiting with baited breath on the ZR) If this was done I think we may see genuine advances made.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dsc said:


> What we'd need to see is testing done by people not related with NS, who didn't not participate in the design process. It's a bit like Matt Perger shouting that Mahls are great, when he's face is sticker'd on all EK43s.


Indeed, someone who worked on a project will never be a fair judge.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Don't get me wrong, I do think people that participated in the design phase knew a thing or two about coffee, but being a part of it throws objectivity out the window.

Regards,

T.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dsc said:


> Don't get me wrong, I do think people that participated in the design phase knew a thing or two about coffee, but being a part of it throws objectivity out the window.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


Yea, I think anyone with such a reputation to uphold will want to at least try to be impartial, but it's near impossible when you have a vested interest.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

They might all be as impartial as it gets and this might be the best grinder out there, the issue here is how it's all seen from the outside. Generally if you are part of something, I'd say that the majority of people will take anything you say with a pinch of disbelief.

Regards,

T.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

It's also not a reason to instantly dismiss is as a cynical selling ploy either ....( I'm not accusing anyone particularly here just making a point ).

Didnt he use the ek then get a deal endorsing it after, primarily because what he was doing was seen as exciting and different and tasty by some ? Rather than approach mahl and say I've got a great way to sell your grinder.......

plus hoffman davies 3fe all have fingers in design with other grinder manufacturers also.

where possible trying three things out is the only way to see if they are of use to you or not .....


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

More grinder clashes!!! seriously though, is the Clima-Pro out yet?

Regards,

T.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dsc said:


> More grinder clashes!!! seriously though, is the Clima-Pro out yet?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


This is turning into robot wars in here .........

I think 3fe or proofrock or one if those high end boys have them .

Saw them on SCG vids too

I


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I don't think real massive advancement will come until someone has the cash , the will and the where with all to start looking at burr design. And that will be an expensive avenue to explore. That in part is why people have gravitated to the ek , it uses burr sizes above the normal kit for standard shop grinders. Mazzer seem interested in just re hashing what they have for the market they have . Simonelli who knows what they got planned .

We need someone with the slayers team imangiantion to take on the grinder manufactures .

Plus it would need to be for the commercial market to justify the r and d and tooling costs . At least until 3 d printing takes a set towards being able to manufacture this type of stuff


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I think it would have to be a grinder which brings something new to the game, re-doing existing designs is fine as companies don't have to invest in new manufacturing lines, but overall it doesn't give a lot to the end user. The EK43 is something that's been on the market for years, so Mahl must be laughing all the way to the bank as they now have a guaranteed sale of a large number of units due to the super high demand. Clima-Pro looks like it was based around the Mythos, Mazzer Kool is the same old Mazzer with the motor offset.

Slayer was something not tried before, something that offered stepped pressure brewing with a pretty simple idea. Coupled with new looks it was and still is a jackpot. A grinder which takes over the market needs to be exactly that, the annoying thing is that it's doable, but no-one wants to spend the monies, risk or kill their existing kit sales.

Regards,

T.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

My god we agree


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> This is turning into robot wars in here .........


Where's philippa forrester?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Where's philippa forrester?


In a jump suit as I remember ...bad bad jeebsy ...


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

She was the best thing about that programme by a mile


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> would a grinder based on the principle of big burrs+ slow speed actually contribute to a better grind?


The capacitor-start motor on the EK43 isn't suitable for speed control. If one wanted badly enough to experiment with a speed-controlled EK43, you would either (1) order it with a 3 phase motor, or (2) replace the existing motor with a compatible 3 phase motor. Then a relatively inexpensive variable frequency drive would work quite well. This is the approach I used with my 3 phase Robur and it easily allows varying the speed from 500 rpm to around 200 rpm.



D_Evans said:


> In chasing the ultimate grind distribution with reduction of fines, what would be the 'ideal' way to create a grinder?


The ideal grinder has existed for decades, the roller grinder. It offers great control of grind distribution, but finding the counter space for it is not so easy.


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## vikingboy (Mar 11, 2013)

AndyS said:


> I used with my 3 phase Robur and it easily allows varying the speed from 500 rpm to around 200 rpm.


For the sake of interesting relevant info, do you have any comments relating to taste of 500 vs 200rpm Andy?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

AndyS said:


> The ideal grinder has existed for decades, the roller grinder. It offers great control of grind distribution, but finding the counter space for it is not so easy.


What I like about that link is the first line of the description

"The Model 600 F is the world's smallest, true industrial roller-style coffee grinder."

Its small


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Maybe we need a forum brain-storming session on how to get the best grind, with a machine that can be used at home/in a shop









Then we can take dsc captive and force him to make it for us.


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## ajh101 (Dec 21, 2013)

And look at the capacity of it!!!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Forget the EK

http://www.mpechicago.com/coffee/grinders/espresso/gpx/


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Been trying to read up on fines, and how they affect the flavour. It seems generally accepted that fines have an important roll to play in the flavour of the cup, and their complete removal is not desirable, as they contribute to the flavour. The EK-43 seems to have (accidentally) happened upon the best distribution of fines thus far, contributing to its ability to produce a great coffee.

Does anyone have any information on experimenting with sieving grinds for espresso? Not necessarily with the intention of removing them entirely, but in order to experiment with different distributions and try to establish the best outcome. It seems to have been done with filter, but not so much espresso (perhaps due to being harder to separate the grinds?)


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## oracleoftruth (Jan 15, 2014)

AndyS said:


> The capacitor-start motor on the EK43 isn't suitable for speed control. If one wanted badly enough to experiment with a speed-controlled EK43, you would either (1) order it with a 3 phase motor, or (2) replace the existing motor with a compatible 3 phase motor. Then a relatively inexpensive variable frequency drive would work quite well. This is the approach I used with my 3 phase Robur and it easily allows varying the speed from 500 rpm to around 200 rpm.
> 
> The ideal grinder has existed for decades, the roller grinder. It offers great control of grind distribution, but finding the counter space for it is not so easy.


Reckon you can single dose?


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

AndyS said:


> The ideal grinder has existed for decades, the roller grinder. It offers great control of grind distribution, but finding the counter space for it is not so easy.


I thought this can be made smaller, but looking at the roller sizes, it's all ready pretty small (152mm x 203mm). Unless of course all you need for home use is 50mm or less.

Regards,

T.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

vikingboy said:


> For the sake of interesting relevant info, do you have any comments relating to taste of 500 vs 200rpm Andy?


TBH, since getting the EK43 I haven't used the Robur much. And I haven't played with grind speeds on the Robur for a couple years, probably. I could try it again, but it's not as easy to make the comparison as one might think.

Going from 500 to 200 rpm requires a major readjustment of the coarse-fine setting collar. On the Robur it takes at least 2 or 3 shots after a readjustment for the new grind to settle down. Then, what exactly do you compare? Paired shots with the same dose, brew ratio and shot time? Or paired shots withe the same dose and BR extracted to the same extraction yield? Or simply the best shot one can pull grinding at 500rpm versus the best shot ground at 200rpm?

Messing with this takes a lot of coffee and a lot of time. I know I live quite a long ways from you, but if you want to come over and try it sometime, maybe we can work it out. Bring lots of your favorite beans.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Forget the EK
> 
> http://www.mpechicago.com/coffee/grinders/espresso/gpx/


Yup, and available with 3 phase motor so you can experiment with speed control.

I would definitely want to get the optional "Large Tote Container for ground product collection"









But sadly, it's still a disc grinder, so presumably it won't have nearly the control over grounds distribution that the roller mills have.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

What about converted/modified malt & grain mills that use rollers?

I'm assuming that roller mills are typically used for pre-packed, commodity grade coffee (further guessing that we have all probably drunk coffee from a roller mill at some point in our lives)? The nagging question for me is, with more innovation in packaging, will there be a tipping point where pre-ground specialty coffee (on roller mills), compares to fresh ground (with burrs)? I wonder, are we not seeing the wood for the trees in terms of 'progress'?

I'm well padded up, so feel free to pelt me with rocks on the pre-ground score...I won't take it personally ;-)


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Interesting thought Mark - but there's no getting away from dubious quality coffee ground with ultimate precision particle size distribution-wise is still going to be inferior. Well, that's what I keep telling myself.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

It seems counter-productive to me to use a super duper roller mill grinder to make prepacked coffee.

I'm curious if it's a multiple roller mechanism, or simply to pre-cut rolls which take beans from the top.

Regards,

T.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

MWJB said:


> What about converted/modified malt & grain mills that use rollers?
> 
> I'm assuming that roller mills are typically used for pre-packed, commodity grade coffee (further guessing that we have all probably drunk coffee from a roller mill at some point in our lives)? The nagging question for me is, with more innovation in packaging, will there be a tipping point where pre-ground specialty coffee (on roller mills), compares to fresh ground (with burrs)? I wonder, are we not seeing the wood for the trees in terms of 'progress'?
> 
> I'm well padded up, so feel free to pelt me with rocks on the pre-ground score...I won't take it personally ;-)


Considering it is recommended you adjust grind size even during the day to account for humidity changes, pre-packed will never be able to challenge grinding on demand.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> Considering it is recommended you adjust grind size even during the day to account for humidity changes, pre-packed will never be able to challenge grinding on demand.


But this is supposed to be one of the benefits of the EK-43, the consistency of the grind necessitating very little change in grind setting (what did Colin Harmon say, +/-1mm on the dial from Pacamara to African coffees)? People seem to be brewing espresso just off "0" on the EK with coffee burrs. If there is something more consistent than that grind-wise, would it not make sense to explore the practicalities of using it? If the grind allows you can pull longer/shorter to hit desired yield, as fines shouldn't be jamming up the puck & restricting flow. I'm not just talking espresso here, I'm talking percolation generally too.

A lot of "if"s I grant you, thinking out loud more than anything.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Grain mills are not all that expensive, been thinking about getting one


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Yes but the EK43 doesn't brew your standard espresso most people are used to, it's different and not to everyone's liking, I think this is where conicals kick in, which unfortunately need grind changes which might fall outside tight ranges.

Regards,

T.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

MWJB said:


> But this is supposed to be one of the benefits of the EK-43, the consistency of the grind necessitating very little change in grind setting (what did Colin Harmon say, +/-1mm on the dial from Pacamara to African coffees)? People seem to be brewing espresso just off "0" on the EK with coffee burrs. If there is something more consistent than that grind-wise, would it not make sense to explore the practicalities of using it? If the grind allows you can pull longer/shorter to hit desired yield, as fines shouldn't be jamming up the puck & restricting flow. I'm not just talking espresso here, I'm talking percolation generally too.
> 
> A lot of "if"s I grant you, thinking out loud more than anything.


I see, I hadn't thought about it like that. You mention "innovation in packing" above as well, is this something specific or just general? I only ask as to my observations there haven't really been and advances as such that I can think of. Vacuum packing is just about the best option we have for longevity, and even if that could reliably produce fresh grounds (which it cant if supermarket coffee is anything to go by) they would only become stale before you would finish the pack.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> I see, I hadn't thought about it like that. You mention "innovation in packing" above as well, is this something specific or just general? I only ask as to my observations there haven't really been and advances as such that I can think of. Vacuum packing is just about the best option we have for longevity, and even if that could reliably produce fresh grounds (which it cant if supermarket coffee is anything to go by) they would only become stale before you would finish the pack.


Well there's a new pre-ground project been reported on Sprudge with an innovative packing method, seems to be ground on an EK & to have some credible supporters, even Scott Rao acknowledges that some preservation techniques work to an extent. Small, single serve/dose packs have been around years already (not typically of great quality, I grant you). I'm not saying it's just round the corner, nor an alternative for a busy café...just speculating at what point the advantages of uniformity/quality of grind start to trump areas that we have perhaps been less open to?

Roller grinds are often referred to as the ideal, but who is regularly brewing with roller ground coffee?

Continually adjusting grind to compensate for heat, humidity whatever is what seems to have drawn us up to the Kold/ClimaPro/EK-43 stage thus far.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

All interesting stuff, I'm merely challenging you to squeeze a bit more information out









I find it interesting that a roller grinder can be called 'ideal', when, as you said, no one is really using them to test out proper 'artisan' coffee. What respect exactly are they 'ideal' in? Is it simply that they give a very consistent grind size? If so from what I have read today this is not necessarily desirable, as the varying sizes of the particles, and even the fines, contribute to the varied flavours in the cup.

I cant see anyone realistically being able to test a roller grinder in a comparable environment to ay of the other grinders on the market.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> All interesting stuff, I'm merely challenging you to squeeze a bit more information out
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Check out AndyS's link to a "small" roller grinder on page 5 of this thread...1,000lb/hour! :-o They're industrial kit. People must be brewing with them, simply because there is so much coffee out there that's been through them....whether that's coffee you or I would drink is another matter.

Yeah, I guess "ideal" is relative/subjective, but whenever you have a wide distribution of grind size (or an uneven extraction method), you limit how much you can extract from the coffee...maybe because the puck jams up and restricts flow, physically limiting extraction, or because the negative flavours from overextracted smaller particles begin to override the positive flavours from later extraction. Some people want body & mouthfeel, others want clarity & not so bothered about mouthfeel. Bear in mind that much of what is said about even grind/extraction not being desirable is usually hypothesis from folk who haven't tried it...but sure, no one is saying that less even extractions are inevitably vile, nor always a problem (much of the negative reaction to using more unimodal grinds for espresso is built on straw man arguments, assumed slights and misquotes).

You could say the smaller & larger particles add variety in the cup, but it's also possible they might muddy flavours and prevent you from hitting something better, don't know until we try...my mind is open to the possibilities (certainly seems plausible from my brewed coffee antics) ...it's the wallet that the limiting factor!


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Properly ground and packaged coffee 'bullets' or cartridges would revolutionise the market in my opinion. If you could take Nespresso and make it better to the point where you don't need a grinder at home that would be a winner.

Going back in the conversation, looks like Clima-Pro is being released into the wild today in London:

https://twitter.com/timberyarduk

If you look up NS website, the Clima-Pro has a price of $3600.

Regards,

T.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> I find it interesting that a roller grinder can be called 'ideal', when, as you said, no one is really using them to test out proper 'artisan' coffee. What respect exactly are they 'ideal' in? Is it simply that they give a very consistent grind size? If so from what I have read today this is not necessarily desirable, as the varying sizes of the particles, and even the fines, contribute to the varied flavours in the cup.


Personally, I've never seen a shred of evidence for the "varied particle sizes produce a pleasingly complex blend in the cup" theory.

Please remember, badly-channeled espresso pucks, non-level tamps, dull burrs and many other preparation disasters will produce this kind of result by over-extracting some of the grounds and under-extracting other parts. Nobody raves about "varied flavors" in these coffee preparations!

For another point of view on who is using what equipment for high-quality coffee, try reading this guy.


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