# Should I upgrade?



## Lambo (Sep 5, 2018)

Hi everybody,

So looking for some advice please, I currently have a Gaggia Classic with loads of mods (pressure gauge, Silvia steam wand and PID courtesy of Mr shades to name but a few) running alongside a Sage Smart Grinder Pro; heat up time is 15 mins, I'm thinking of upgrading to a Sage Dual Boiler but wondered what the effective heat up time woulid be? Obviously running 2 boilers will cost more to run but if the heat up time is quicker it could cancel out the extra cost. No way I could justify a brand new one so will be looking at a pre-owned one.

So any advice?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Why you wanna change , if it's I'm the cup improvements then I'd look at the grinder first.

Group warm.up time is about 2 mins . The pf will be cold though


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## Lambo (Sep 5, 2018)

Wouild be easier to steam and dispense at the same time, also be able to pre-program shots.


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

There seems to be little love for the big Sage machines. They aren't seen as being reliable enough to warrant the cost.

I'm in a similar position to you at the moment though - I have the DTP and am debating a twin boiler machine. If you want new, the ACS Minima looks a very good alternative for not much more money and DaveC's involvement would seem to be quite an endorsement. Or a grand gets you (close to) some of the tasty kit in the classifieds.....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Lambo said:


> Wouild be easier to steam and dispense at the same time, also be able to pre-program shots.


The pre programme shots are not all that .you'd still need to weight out in my experience


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

pgarrish said:


> There seems to be little love for the big Sage machines. They aren't seen as being reliable enough to warrant the cost.
> 
> I'm in a similar position to you at the moment though - I have the DTP and am debating a twin boiler machine. If you want new, the ACS Minima looks a very good alternative for not much more money and DaveC's involvement would seem to be quite an endorsement. Or a grand gets you (close to) some of the tasty kit in the classifieds.....


Loads of people have the dB and for a number of years .

I tend to see more faults reported on the lower end sage machines.


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

not what was said to me on my similar thread (albeit only by one person - dfk41), but happy to be corrected.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

pgarrish said:


> not what was said to me on my similar thread (albeit only by one person - dfk41), but happy to be corrected.


Depends how much variance your happy with in my experience they can be 2-4 g out sometimes more. It's not a commercial volumetric system .

I use a sage oracle with a separate grinder. The oracle is essentially the sage dB With a grinder and tamper attached .

Re warranty stuff second hand up to you there are more repairable machines for sure but without the same features. I've had my oracle a number of years


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Sage seem to assume that the OPV wont be opened when it's in volume mode. Net effect is that it's way out if a lot of the brew time is OPV open. They use the same blue sector on the guage as the BE for where they expect the pressure to be. When I tried volume even after programming it there was no way it would hold output to within 2 to 4g. Some how it went into volume today while I was reprogramming infusion No idea how but didn't push the right buttonns - single shot put 80ml out instead of my usual 35.

The plus with the DB is a lot for the money compared with others even a bit of a fix for PID problems on small brew boilers - they preheat what goes in via the steam boiler. Add variable pre infusion, drains for descaling, stainless boiler and there isn't much competition out there. The group is heated separately. Since switching to a bottomless portafilter I've found no need to preheat it. The normal one can be heated by leaving it in for about 10mins or more quickly by running a shot through an empty pressurised basket. The machine takes a couple of mins to heat up from cold for brew, steam a little bit longer.

Reliability is mostly O rings failing. From what I can gather usually after 3 years but it may relate to hours on. People fix them themselves usually after a failure. A well known person on here recommend looking inside machines every 6 months. Sometimes solenoids rattle but people fix by cleaning them. It looks like these are available other than from Sage. They are Olab parts. Repair costs depend on how close you are to Coffee Classics. Engineer costs that include travel time can be expensive on any machine.

If you buy new do use Lakeland. 3 years warrantee rather than 2. The ebay outlet that sells refurbs from time to time have an odd warrantee. 6months refund or find a replacement and then partial refunds. The used ones just come with 30days return to base.

VST and other posh baskets often aren't suitable. I have added a couple of Fracino baskets to extend the range 12g for 14 and a 14 for 16 then the sage for 18. The single is useless, a Fracino single is a better option. There is a version about which is supposed to hold up to 9g. Sticking pucks can be a problem but I'm increasingly finding that reducing the dose stops that. Even 1/2g can make a difference, sometime a gram may be needed. One bean stuck what ever I did but that was before i fully realised that the dose seems to be important.

What might be "better" - high end true E61 dual boiler machine and boiler sizes might come into that.







I want button pusher so there is even less choice for me.

John

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## Lambo (Sep 5, 2018)

Aye, I've heard of reported faults but on lower end models. I am surprised that it doesn't seem to hold shot sizes, I looked into the ACS Minima but struggling with price especially for a beta machine. With the Sage DB you do seem to get a lot of bang for your buck.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Lambo said:


> Aye, I've heard of reported faults but on lower end models. I am surprised that it doesn't seem to hold shot sizes, I looked into the ACS Minima but struggling with price especially for a beta machine. With the Sage DB you do seem to get a lot of bang for your buck.


The Minima is in production now. The only way you could get your hands on a beta machine is if someone decided to sell one 2nd hand.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Lambo said:


> Aye, I've heard of reported faults but on lower end models. I am surprised that it doesn't seem to hold shot sizes, I looked into the ACS Minima but struggling with price especially for a beta machine. With the Sage DB you do seem to get a lot of bang for your buck.


|I'd be inclined to say fault rates are the other way round. It's far easier to find reports on DB's than the others. The main weakness is the O rings. A back flush with a cleaning tablet may cure solenoid buzzes.







Means should back flush more often. I don't think that the machines asks for one often enough. Same with descale but scale can still be removed with a descaler. I descaled mine twice recently as I had a feeling I had messed up on the first one. Net result as far a boiling noises go was that the first one didn't get rid of it all. I'm sure I didn't mess up on the steam boiler.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The main pain is no real options for parts and repair outside of warranty, hence the risk of a second hand purchase becoming a potential brick.

As said there are people whose sage products have developed faults and those that have not. I think being aware of the risks is important then you can make an informed choice , married With your own expectations of how long you expect an appliance to last


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## Lambo (Sep 5, 2018)

Cheers guys, I'm not bothered about repairs as I'm actually a coffee machine service engineer (no where near as advanced as Mr Shades, hats off to you) I was exploring the running cost side as I was unsure on heat up times. A dual boiler would always be preferable to a single but it's been interesting to see the other side, obviously my Gaggia is up to temp in a couple of mins but for a good shot it really needs 15 mins.


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## Lambo (Sep 5, 2018)

Quick update, definitely getting a dual boiler and thanks to ajohn whom recommended Lakeland. The DB is currently on sale in John Lewis for £1,000 so went in to Lakeland and they price match so a DB with 3 yrs warranty hopefully ready for collection Tues. Won't be unboxing and using until I've fitted new kitchen so roll on the Easter weekend, I'll have to contend myself with gazing longingly at the box, still good incentive to get on with the kitchen.


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## lhavelund (Dec 28, 2018)

Lambo said:


> Quick update, definitely getting a dual boiler and thanks to ajohn whom recommended Lakeland. The DB is currently on sale in John Lewis for £1,000 so went in to Lakeland and they price match so a DB with 3 yrs warranty hopefully ready for collection Tues. Won't be unboxing and using until I've fitted new kitchen so roll on the Easter weekend, I'll have to contend myself with gazing longingly at the box, still good incentive to get on with the kitchen.


Excellent willpower compared to me...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> The main pain is no real options for parts and repair outside of warranty, hence the risk of a second hand purchase becoming a potential brick.
> 
> As said there are people whose sage products have developed faults and those that have not. I think being aware of the risks is important then you can make an informed choice , married With your own expectations of how long you expect an appliance to last


There are options for post warrantee repair - coffee classics. What isn't easy is self repair but that depends on what fails. If some one needs an engineer for a repair they wont travel to the machine for free. CoffeeClassics are on the A45 a little north of Daventry so some one who lived there wouldn't have to pay much for travel time. I understand that people can take their machines there. Might be an option for me from B'ham but not a nice trip.

I tried to buy some spares directly from CoffeeClassics. Bit too late as Sage had told them that they wanted to handle that side themselves but they could provide part numbers. I saw a comment somewhere that if an individual approaches Sage for parts they will be told that they will only supply their agents.







Maybe John Lewis or AO etc will repair them. If there are engineering type agents where is the list?

It all seems to be a Breville thing. In the past there has been companies in various countries that could supply parts and also have parts lists with diagrams. Then it stopped. Breville seem to have offered a machine exchange scheme in one country for a while.

One thing I noticed was their grinders and machines with them. I'm pretty sure that when I bought a BE both of the burs were available. Now only the outer one. Burs wear out. Also I ordered the wrong shower screen once. The inner one turned up, largish casting. Maybe a web mistake as the usual one was also there. The inner one may have been there because the black coating can blister. Both of these seem to smell of throw away and buy new to me.

There web site is a bit of an html etc programmers bad dream. The spare people want may only be shown on another machine. It now seems to have gone global. I didn't check to see if their African agent was in Botswana as the African link doesn't work.

Looks like the BE is due for replacement by the BEP - none touch version with a knob to change the grinder setting a la other Sage grinders so all probably exactly the same internally apart from the grind exit on the ones that are built in. They show a picture of a thermojet.









Posh home coffee is supposed to be the next thing everybody will buy.







On Sage's higher priced models I suspect few will be prepared to throw them away and if more people buy at this price level there will be more competition from other makers.

John

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## burmanm (Dec 14, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> The main pain is no real options for parts and repair outside of warranty, hence the risk of a second hand purchase becoming a potential brick.


This is obviously just my view, but at least in Finland I've been able to get the spare parts easily. It took about a week for them to arrive after ordering (I needed a new steam wand, but I also ordered a new silicon ring) without any hassle. Obviously, I have no idea if something that isn't manufactured anymore breaks, the portafilter holder being the main issue I think.


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