# Struggling to dial in on Sage Smart Grinder Pro



## Liasis

Hi all,

I just bought a Sage Grinder Pro thanks to these forums as I was struggling to get anywhere with pre-ground beans on my Gaggia Classic (2006). I am however really struggling to pull a decent espresso shot, I think because of grind size.

Ive descaled/cleaned the Gaggia thoroughly, replaced the group head gasket, turned OPV down to 9 bar, and yet I still can't pull a decent shot. I have a pretty decent scale to weigh grinds in/espresso out, a calibrated tamp so I know I am using 30lbs to tamp every time, and a 14g standard double basket.

The beans I was using today were roasted yesterday. I know this will impact flavor, however would using beans roasted recently impact grind/extraction time? I'm really just trying to dial in to the right grind size.

These are my notes during grinding, using a Sage Smart Grinder Pro which is new to me and only a few months old.

Grind size - grams of coffee in portafilter - espresso output in seconds

Size 13 - 17.7 g - 49g in 20s

Size 8 - 17g - 39g in 17s

Size 5 - 17.3g - 37.7g in 18s

Size 1 - 17g - 35g in 20s

I then re-calibrated the burr to grind more fine by moving down by 1

Size 5 - 17.4g - 36g in 18s

Size 1 - 17.7g - 29g in 22s

I've seen videos where Breville tell you that you really shouldn't need to change the calibration on the grinder right out of the box. I am wondering whether anything else can account for the too fast pulls?

I still have yet to choke the machine in the slightest. The grinder also make a bit of a clunking sound & the hopper shakes a bit when grinding. I'm not sure if something about the machine is defective or whether I do need to keep adjusting the burrs. I don't want to push it too hard as I'm unfamiliar with the machine.

Here's a pic of the last shot, I think I stopped it shorter than the others because I could see it was already blonding fairly early on but I wanted something to drink after all my troubles!









Thanks for your help!


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## MWJB

Your 'pretty decent' scale seems to be saying that you are dosing inconsistently.

Did any of th above shots taste markedly better than the others?

Which basket are you using?

What happens if you use setting 1, dose 18.0g in & get 54g out?


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## Mrboots2u

Your coffee i suspect is also too fresh meaning your extractions are all over the place.


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## Liasis

MWJB said:


> Your 'pretty decent' scale seems to be saying that you are dosing inconsistently.
> 
> Did any of th above shots taste markedly better than the others?
> 
> Which basket are you using?
> 
> What happens if you use setting 1, dose 18.0g in & get 54g out?


Yep, I was aware I was dosing inconsistently - just wanted to get in a ballpark area (something resembling 2x the grind g in 25-30secs). I didn't think I needed to be super spot on to get there.

Basket is Gaggia's 14g double basket. All shots were sour & blonded early.

I will try that tomorrow when I give it another go & report back.


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## Liasis

Mrboots2u said:


> Your coffee i suspect is also too fresh meaning your extractions are all over the place.


Okay, so is it basically a complete waste of time trying to use fresh beans in terms of figuring out a good grind size?


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## MWJB

Liasis said:


> Yep, I was aware I was dosing inconsistently - just wanted to get in a ballpark area (something resembling 2x the grind g in 25-30secs). I didn't think I needed to be super spot on to get there.
> 
> Basket is Gaggia's 14g double basket. All shots were sour & blonded early.
> 
> I will try that tomorrow when I give it another go & report back.


Different weights in the basket will present different resistances to the brew water, it only takes a second or two to trim doses to what you want.

Isn't 18g a lot for a Gaggia basket? Isn't 16g more typical? Why not get an 18g VST.

Are you aiming for 2x out & a good flavour, or a shot in 25-30s? You might have to pick one or the other. Is 1:2 the weakest ratio that you can enjoy espresso? If not, pushing more water through the puck can help get past sourness.


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## GingerBen

That grinder can be a bit tricky but they can produce reasonable espresso. I'd heed the advice above, let the coffee rest a bit, be more precise and put less coffee in your basket, or get a bigger one. 17+g in a 14g basket isn't going to help at this stage imo.


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## Mrboots2u

As above, there are some variances that are not helping you dial in at the mo. Is it home roasted?

Dose needs to be more accurate as @MWJB says more coffee , more resistance and vice versa.

I would go to 16g also. Bare in mind when you do this the shot will be quicker than the 18g shot ( less coffee , less resistance ), unless you tighten the grind.

Ultra fresh coffee can lead to variable extractions (what you may be experiencing is a sourer cup and variable times of shots ).


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## ajohn

What weight of beans have you ground with it so far ? Rather than try and explain there is a review of the Niche grinder on their site done by DaveUK that explains permanent retention and "contamination" when beans are changed. I've found 40g of a new bean even gets rid of the taste from really strongly vanilla flavoured beans.

You wont get a constant output until the grinds that are retained are well compacted. When that has been achieved a change of setting will also change the output.

In some way you may be better off starting tuning by weighing beans into the grinder - just empty the hopper, weigh the beans in and grind the lot away. The motor will speed up when all of them are ground. Then weigh the output. If incorrect - usually low after a setting is changed pop another 1 or 2 beans in. When weighing in like that I have been obtaining circa 10g +/- 0.1g, numerous one being the same as what went in. The output might change by up to 0.3g when a setting is changed and then the next one would be correct. The reason for the output variation seems to be 1/2 beans lodging on the top of the outer burr. Those should be removed if the bean is changed.

So all in all you are probably chasing your tail and many other grinders that use a timer will have a similar problem. The Sage grinders do probably have more permanent retention than others. Weighing like this gets around the output given via a timer changing significantly when ever you change the setting. At the same time setting finer will produce less, coarser more. That's normal.

This is a convienient set up for working this way









It can also be used to set the timer either by grinding onto scales or for some seconds, weigh the output and do a sum to get what you want. The part I have added is the grinds chamber off a hand grinder. I also use a shorter one off a £5 amazon hand grinder. It's easy to get the grinds into a portafilter. Tap them down a bit in the container, invert the portafilter over it, turn over, think which way the grinds will tilt as it's turned over and tap to correct.

When they are used in manual mode the time is displayed so an idea of the correct time can be obtained by grinding onto scales.

My SGP arrived "conditioned" as it was refurbished so it worked out of the box. Some one else's grinds were compacted in it. The one on my BE which is essentially the same was new. By the time I had sorted my shots out it was conditioned. I would have found the razor useful if I had used it.

I've since completely cleaned out the BE grinder and used supermarket beans to get it working well again. I just ground a lot of them at Sage's suggested initial setting and then some 2 clicks either side. Following that it settled down to weighing in very quickly.

After running the grinder empty it might be worth a brief manual run at a setting of 1. That came close to stalling my SGP as it arrived. It would have done if I had run it for more than a few secs. I set the outer burr one setting coarser. Over a 10 sec run on 1 the motor then just sounded a touch busy.

It's also a good idea to run the grinder while setting it finer - as an engineer from Coffee Classics recently told me. It's a good idea on any grinder really. I did early on when I noticed that the adjustment went stiff. When weighing in it doesn't matter as the burrs will be virtually clear of beans.

I've also tuned a couple of times by deliberately grind too many beans and then razoring off. Saves finding out what weight is needed for a decent fill. In my case an extra 0.5g allowed the grind setting to be changed without worrying about weight. When Ok I weighed the grinds in the basket via tarring it empty. I have used the grinder a lot though so a have good idea what region of settings are likely to be needed.

John

-


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## Liasis

Mrboots2u said:


> As above, there are some variances that are not helping you dial in at the mo. Is it home roasted?
> 
> Dose needs to be more accurate as @MWJB says more coffee , more resistance and vice versa.
> 
> I would go to 16g also. Bare in mind when you do this the shot will be quicker than the 18g shot ( less coffee , less resistance ), unless you tighten the grind.
> 
> Ultra fresh coffee can lead to variable extractions (what you may be experiencing is a sourer cup and variable times of shots ).


No, not home roasted.

Okay, I'll try going down to 16g & waiting a bit for the beans to age. I'm tired of sour coffee!


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## Liasis

ajohn said:


> What weight of beans have you ground with it so far ? Rather than try and explain there is a review of the Niche grinder on their site done by DaveUK that explains permanent retention and "contamination" when beans are changed. I've found 40g of a new bean even gets rid of the taste from really strongly vanilla flavoured beans.
> 
> You wont get a constant output until the grinds that are retained are well compacted. When that has been achieved a change of setting will also change the output.
> 
> In some way you may be better off starting tuning by weighing beans into the grinder - just empty the hopper, weigh the beans in and grind the lot away. The motor will speed up when all of them are ground. Then weigh the output. If incorrect - usually low after a setting is changed pop another 1 or 2 beans in. When weighing in like that I have been obtaining circa 10g +/- 0.1g, numerous one being the same as what went in. The output might change by up to 0.3g when a setting is changed and then the next one would be correct. The reason for the output variation seems to be 1/2 beans lodging on the top of the outer burr. Those should be removed if the bean is changed.
> 
> So all in all you are probably chasing your tail and many other grinders that use a timer will have a similar problem. The Sage grinders do probably have more permanent retention than others. Weighing like this gets around the output given via a timer changing significantly when ever you change the setting. At the same time setting finer will produce less, coarser more. That's normal.
> 
> This is a convienient set up for working this way
> 
> View attachment 33404
> 
> 
> It can also be used to set the timer either by grinding onto scales or for some seconds, weigh the output and do a sum to get what you want. The part I have added is the grinds chamber off a hand grinder. I also use a shorter one off a £5 amazon hand grinder. It's easy to get the grinds into a portafilter. Tap them down a bit in the container, invert the portafilter over it, turn over, think which way the grinds will tilt as it's turned over and tap to correct.
> 
> When they are used in manual mode the time is displayed so an idea of the correct time can be obtained by grinding onto scales.
> 
> My SGP arrived "conditioned" as it was refurbished so it worked out of the box. Some one else's grinds were compacted in it. The one on my BE which is essentially the same was new. By the time I had sorted my shots out it was conditioned. I would have found the razor useful if I had used it.
> 
> I've since completely cleaned out the BE grinder and used supermarket beans to get it working well again. I just ground a lot of them at Sage's suggested initial setting and then some 2 clicks either side. Following that it settled down to weighing in very quickly.
> 
> After running the grinder empty it might be worth a brief manual run at a setting of 1. That came close to stalling my SGP as it arrived. It would have done if I had run it for more than a few secs. I set the outer burr one setting coarser. Over a 10 sec run on 1 the motor then just sounded a touch busy.
> 
> It's also a good idea to run the grinder while setting it finer - as an engineer from Coffee Classics recently told me. It's a good idea on any grinder really. I did early on when I noticed that the adjustment went stiff. When weighing in it doesn't matter as the burrs will be virtually clear of beans.
> 
> I've also tuned a couple of times by deliberately grind too many beans and then razoring off. Saves finding out what weight is needed for a decent fill. In my case an extra 0.5g allowed the grind setting to be changed without worrying about weight. When Ok I weighed the grinds in the basket via tarring it empty. I have used the grinder a lot though so a have good idea what region of settings are likely to be needed.
> 
> John
> 
> -


I have been ignoring the grind amount and using a scale to measure how many grams I am getting out of the machine. I wasn't being particularly precise but ballparking 17g

My worry is that I've already gone down to 1, then recalibrated that 1 to be 1 step finer by changing the burr setting, and still this new finer 1 won't choke the machine. This is what's confusing me!

I'm considering buying some supermarket beans just to try and get the SGP to the right grind like you say, perhaps I need to keep running the beans through before the change in grind size really takes affect? I would have expected to get espresso level grind around 12-14 range as it says, not having to go down to 1 twice to still be too coarse!

At this point I'm not looking for perfection, just want to find the range between too coarse and too fine for my machine. Up until this point it's only been too coarse, unless the newness of the beans is really screwing me up, and hopefully buying beans a bit older will help eliminate/explain that.


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## Mrboots2u

Supermarket beans won't help you will be gouge from too fresh to not fresh enough.

You will just learn how to make coffee with not great quality or fresh beans.

Get something decent from a reputable roaster

Nail your dose down as suggested.


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## MWJB

You don't really want to choke your machine.

Is that calibration the total amount of adjustment you have to work with?

Ignore "12-14" these are not measurements of anything.


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## Liasis

MWJB said:


> You don't really want to choke your machine.
> 
> Is that calibration the total amount of adjustment you have to work with?
> 
> Ignore "12-14" these are not measurements of anything.


I don't wish to choke my machine, but some people have suggested this is a way of finding your 'too fine', which is what I can't get to on this grinder.

The calibration was set at 6, between 1 and 12. I can move it all the way to the finest step but currently I have only moved one step away from the midpoint of 6, as suggested by Breville (only go one step at a time). However they strongly discourage doing this straight out of the box so part of me thinks this isn't the right thing to do without trying to eliminate other variables.


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## Liasis

Mrboots2u said:


> Supermarket beans won't help you will be gouge from too fresh to not fresh enough.
> 
> You will just learn how to make coffee with not great quality or fresh beans.
> 
> Get something decent from a reputable roaster
> 
> Nail your dose down as suggested.


But as I've asked before - will buying supermarket beans help me ultimately to dial in? That's what I really want to know. If the too fresh beans aren't going to help me do this, then I would rather dial in using cheaper supermarket beans to figure out the range on my grinder & then use this to fine tune & dial in on the nice beans going forward.

at this moment in time, I want to figure out the range on my grinder.


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## Mrboots2u

Liasis said:


> I don't wish to choke my machine, but some people have suggested this is a way of finding your 'too fine', which is what I can't get to on this grinder.
> 
> The calibration was set at 6, between 1 and 12. I can move it all the way to the finest step but currently I have only moved one step away from the midpoint of 6, as suggested by Breville (only go one step at a time). However they strongly discourage doing this straight out of the box so part of me thinks this isn't the right thing to do without trying to eliminate other variables.


I wouldnt worry about going past 6....you only midway with too fresh coffee. I think its just advise so people dont over fill and grind to fine and jam up a espresso machine.


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## MWJB

Liasis said:


> I don't wish to choke my machine, but some people have suggested this is a way of finding your 'too fine', which is what I can't get to on this grinder.
> 
> The calibration was set at 6, between 1 and 12. I can move it all the way to the finest step but currently I have only moved one step away from the midpoint of 6, as suggested by Breville (only go one step at a time). However they strongly discourage doing this straight out of the box so part of me thinks this isn't the right thing to do without trying to eliminate other variables.


There is a school of thought that grinders don't make enough fines when new, so it may improve.


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## ashcroc

Are you using a proper close fitting tamper or the dodgy double ended plastic thing gaggia supply?


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## Liasis

ashcroc said:


> Are you using a proper close fitting tamper or the dodgy double ended plastic thing gaggia supply?


Yep using a calibrated to 30lb tamper for a 58mm portafilter.

I also don't think channeling is a major issue as I'm using a naked portafilter & there isn't any spurting, nice colour at the beginning and single tail but just blondeing quickly.


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## MWJB

Liasis said:


> Yep using a calibrated to 30lb tamper for a 58mm portafilter.
> 
> I also don't think channeling is a major issue as I'm using a naked portafilter & there isn't any spurting, nice colour at the beginning and single tail but just blondeing quickly.


You seem to be judging your shot by a lot of parameters, weight, time, colour. Concentrate on the weight & the taste.


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## ashcroc

Liasis said:


> Yep using a calibrated to 30lb tamper for a 58mm portafilter.
> 
> I also don't think channeling is a major issue as I'm using a naked portafilter & there isn't any spurting, nice colour at the beginning and single tail but just blondeing quickly.


Naked portafilter tend to need a finer grind than spouted ones.

I think most of your problems are from the volatility of too fresh beans though. If you have a waitrose nearby they may have some union beans that are still fresh enough.


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## Mrboots2u

ashcroc said:


> Naked portafilter tend to need a finer grind than spouted ones.
> 
> I think most of your problems are from the volatility of too fresh beans though. If you have a waitrose nearby they may have some union beans that are still fresh enough.


Why would a naked need a finer grind , it has the same basket in it, using the same machine.


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## ashcroc

Mrboots2u said:


> Why would a naked need a finer grind , it has the same basket in it, using the same machine.


The flow's not held back by having to pass through a small hole to get to the spouts.


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## Mrboots2u

ashcroc said:


> The flow's not held back by having to pass through a small hole to get to the spouts.


Doesn't make any difference to the way the coffee extracts , just the time taking to get into the cup.

You are measuring by brew ratio and taste , not time.


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## ashcroc

Mrboots2u said:


> Doesn't make any difference to the way the coffee extracts , just the time taking to get into the cup.
> 
> You are measuring by brew ratio and taste , not time.


That may be your findings but from personal experiance, the 'backing up' (for want af a better term) of the flow in a spouted portafilter means that fluid that would happily pass through the basket has nowhere to go. Before I got a single basket & 41mm tamper I used to use a spouted portafilter to split the shot when making a single espresso. Without exception I'd have to slacken the grind a bit if I wanted to hit the same extraction as I had with the naked. It was more noticeable with the cast twin spout portafilter but still there when using a standard one where the spout is screwed on.


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## Mrboots2u

ashcroc said:


> That may be your findings but from personal experiance, the 'backing up' (for want af a better term) of the flow in a spouted portafilter means that fluid that would happily pass through the basket has nowhere to go. Before I got a single basket & 41mm tamper I used to use a spouted portafilter to split the shot when making a single espresso. Without exception I'd have to slacken the grind a bit if I wanted to hit the same extraction as I had with the naked. It was more noticeable with the cast twin spout portafilter but still there when using a standard one where the spout is screwed on.


When you say same extraction do you mean same brew ratio in the same time?


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## ashcroc

Mrboots2u said:


> When you say same extraction do you mean same brew ratio in the same time?


Yes though maybe that's the wrong terminology if you would like to suggest something else. I don't have a refractometer so have to rely on taste. While I'm not too bothered about time with all other variables being equal (water temp., dose, ratio, OPV pressure, basket etc), it will change change the flavour of thw shot.


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## Mrboots2u

Fair enough, I personally think any taste difference was possibly due to being in more contact with mental in the PF.

Shots will be quicker via a naked , I am not sure there is enough "flow back" up to effect actual extraction yields.

I know some people aim for a flow rate ml into a cup my problem with that is it's different with spouts and I am not sure actually what it is correcting to in the end.


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## ajohn

Liasis said:


> I have been ignoring the grind amount and using a scale to measure how many grams I am getting out of the machine. I wasn't being particularly precise but ballparking 17g
> 
> My worry is that I've already gone down to 1, then recalibrated that 1 to be 1 step finer by changing the burr setting, and still this new finer 1 won't choke the machine. This is what's confusing me!
> 
> I'm considering buying some supermarket beans just to try and get the SGP to the right grind like you say, perhaps I need to keep running the beans through before the change in grind size really takes affect? I would have expected to get espresso level grind around 12-14 range as it says, not having to go down to 1 twice to still be too coarse!
> 
> At this point I'm not looking for perfection, just want to find the range between too coarse and too fine for my machine. Up until this point it's only been too coarse, unless the newness of the beans is really screwing me up, and hopefully buying beans a bit older will help eliminate/explain that.


The supermarket beans are just a way of getting compacted grinds into the grind chamber - it works, I have done it. A 100g or so will do it. I'd expect the same sort of amount of any bean to do the job. There will be a lot of variation in output via the timer until it settles down.

It may be worth removing the outer burr. It should click solidly in place but grinds can get trapped the part it clicks into. Make sure there aren't any in that area. Both of my Sage grinders need a fair bit of effort to get the burr to click into place.

It sounds like you may need to check the burr settings. Empty the grinder and run until there are none left in the machine or burrs. Some collect on the outer burr. A quick vac is the easiest way to get rid of them or turn it over and shake them out. Then set 1 and press the grind button but don't release it. You have heard how the motor sound when it's grinding beans. Set finer if needed until the motor slows down a touch. If it slows down and then slows down even more rather quickly they are set too fine. This is why you mustn't release the button - there is no way of stopping when it's running on the timer. It can be paused though but the next thing would be to pull the plug out if it's set too fine. On mine set like this the motor just sounds a little busy after it was set like this and I only ran it for 5 sec or so. At a setting of 2 the motor runs freely.

I think until you know where you are with settings weighing beans in is the easiest answer and checking what comes out. If you keep altering the setting you'll be stuck with the output changing. Fill level changes have a similar effect to grinder setting changes. Sometimes that matters sometimes it doesn't. I've sometimes used an extra gram on circa 14g to get higher brew pressure on one of my Sage machines. 1 bar pus higher just down to fill level and over filling.

I assume it's a new grinder? Years ago they produced a version that sometimes needed shimming to get to espresso levels. That's why they have added the adjustment that it seems may be needed due to wear at some point as well. There also used to be a plastic part under the inner burr that could wear out. The newer models use a metal part. These updates seem to have happened some time ago.

John

-


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## ajohn

It might be worth mentioning that super market beans can be used at similar grind setting to several types of fresh roasted I have used. I did have a packet of weird super market types from a high end place called Bety's that needed an incredibly fine grind. Lidl, Asda not much difference really.

Some, in big letter, are drinkable as well. Not Asda though. Some one made me a drink using what they called Tesco Standard using an Aeropress - tasted ok but a bit weak for me.

Oh - and some people do use Starbuck's beans.

John

-


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## Liasis

MWJB said:


> You seem to be judging your shot by a lot of parameters, weight, time, colour. Concentrate on the weight & the taste.





MWJB said:


> Your 'pretty decent' scale seems to be saying that you are dosing inconsistently.
> 
> Did any of th above shots taste markedly better than the others?
> 
> Which basket are you using?
> 
> What happens if you use setting 1, dose 18.0g in & get 54g out?


Just tried your last suggestion - it was 18g in a 14g basket. Tesco beans just to trial. Taste obviously bad but hoping someone can tell me what's going on by watching the video? My machine has decided to go all spurty on me.











Album of pics


http://imgur.com/MEeUO


realized now I stopped at 45g, not 54 lol.

At this point I'm not sure if it's the grind, my machine, or what.


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## lake_m

I sometimes see that on the Classic if the grind is too fine and I haven't locked the portafilter in tight enough. Instead of choking, it flows out from around the seal. It's a new seal too.

In your case, it looks as though the water eventually punched through causing it to channel.


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## ajohn

18g for a 14g Gaggia basket or any other make of E61 14g basket sounds like rather a lot to me.

Curious - did you check the grinder burr settings as I suggested ?

John

-


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## ashcroc

Liasis said:


> Just tried your last suggestion - it was 18g in a 14g basket. Tesco beans just to trial. Taste obviously bad but hoping someone can tell me what's going on by watching the video? My machine has decided to go all spurty on me.


My guess would be overfilling the basket so the portafilter won't close properly. If you want an 18g dose then get an 18g basket.


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## Mrboots2u

Liasis said:


> Just tried your last suggestion - it was 18g in a 14g basket. Tesco beans just to trial. Taste obviously bad but hoping someone can tell me what's going on by watching the video? My machine has decided to go all spurty on me.


Your beans are stale. As stated before naming coffee with bad beans = bad coffee .

I think you are over filling as well, Again 16g would be safer but you are not going to learn anything much from using that coffee.

Reduce dose, the shot will be fast but see if it still leaks. If its still leaking then you may need to clean the shower screen and check seals.


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## Liasis

ajohn said:


> 18g for a 14g Gaggia basket or any other make of E61 14g basket sounds like rather a lot to me.
> 
> Curious - did you check the grinder burr settings as I suggested ?
> 
> John
> 
> -


Yep, I had a play and tried to get the grind down to the finest grind possible by grinding out the old coffee, and moving the burrs down as low as I could. Machine was still able to grind & the Gaggia still made a too-fast shot of coffee (42g of liquid out in 15s from 15g of grinds in my 14g double basket). Argh!


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## lake_m

This sounds like to same issues I was having with my Smart Grinder Pro - particularly with stale beans. First nothing, then it would burst through in a hurry creating a foul mess.


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## Liasis

lake_m said:


> I sometimes see that on the Classic if the grind is too fine and I haven't locked the portafilter in tight enough. Instead of choking, it flows out from around the seal. It's a new seal too.
> 
> In your case, it looks as though the water eventually punched through causing it to channel.


Is it possible that if I have never put the portafilter in very tight, that my grind has always been too fine? Pulling my hair out at the moment.


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## lake_m

I've been here too. I'm afraid it's a limitation of the SGP. It struggles with grinding fine enough for lighter roasts, stale roasts, and some decaf. Stick to easy extracting more soluble beans which don't require too fine a grind. Then back off the grind until it stops channeling. It's just the grinder unfortunately.


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## MWJB

Liasis said:


> Just tried your last suggestion - it was 18g in a 14g basket. Tesco beans just to trial. Taste obviously bad but hoping someone can tell me what's going on by watching the video? My machine has decided to go all spurty on me.
> 
> realized now I stopped at 45g, not 54 lol.
> 
> At this point I'm not sure if it's the grind, my machine, or what.


I thought we established that 18g was too much for your basket?

Most likely culprits are overfilling basket/poor seal of PF, grind, then beans (don't bother with beans that you don't expect to taste good, you just waste time).


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## richwade80

Liasis said:


> Just tried your last suggestion - it was 18g in a 14g basket. Tesco beans just to trial. Taste obviously bad but hoping someone can tell me what's going on by watching the video? My machine has decided to go all spurty on me.


Just watching your video - i can see the whole portafilter jump up when you stop the shot. Is that normal?


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## Liasis

richwade80 said:


> Just watching your video - i can see the whole portafilter jump up when you stop the shot. Is that normal?


Great spot - I don't think I've ever seen it do that before. What could that be? Just PF not locked in properly?


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## richwade80

Liasis said:


> Great spot - I don't think I've ever seen it do that before. What could that be? Just PF not locked in properly?


I initially thought it might be the rubber seal not seated properly?

I apologise for asking- but you have firmly locked the portafilter in place? It is definitely the right kind of portafilter for the machine and rubber seal is the right depth etc.


----------



## SimonN

Liasis said:


> Great spot - I don't think I've ever seen it do that before. What could that be? Just PF not locked in properly?


Yes, possibly because there's too much coffee in the PF so you can't lock it in properly? Why are you not putting 14g into a basket that is meant to hold 14g? (Although to be fair, you can maybe squeeze in an extra 1g or 2g if you really feel the need)

Unfortunately I fear you may be on a hiding to nothing with Tesco coffee - even if you do eventually get it dialled in with these beans as soon as you use fresh ones you'll be starting again


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## Liasis

richwade80 said:


> I initially thought it might be the rubber seal not seated properly?
> 
> I apologise for asking- but you have firmly locked the portafilter in place? It is definitely the right kind of portafilter for the machine and rubber seal is the right depth etc.


Could be - I literally replaced the gasket yesterday so maybe I put it in upside down or something?

I'm a newbie so it's possible im not putting in the portafilter hard enough? I don't want to force it but I feel like it's in right. It's a new 58mm, should be right?


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## richwade80

SimonN said:


> Yes, possibly because there's too much coffee in the PF so you can't lock it in properly? Why are you not putting 14g into a basket that is meant to hold 14g? (Although to be fair, you can maybe squeeze in an extra 1g or 2g if you really feel the need)
> 
> Unfortunately I fear you may be on a hiding to nothing with Tesco coffee - even if you do eventually get it dialled in with these beans as soon as you use fresh ones you'll be starting again


That would explain it. The PF wouldn't be sealing against the rubber seal if there's too much coffee in the basket. The coffee would the p1ss out over the top, and the PF would likely jump when the pump stops as well.


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## Liasis

SimonN said:


> Yes, possibly because there's too much coffee in the PF so you can't lock it in properly? Why are you not putting 14g into a basket that is meant to hold 14g? (Although to be fair, you can maybe squeeze in an extra 1g or 2g if you really feel the need)
> 
> Unfortunately I fear you may be on a hiding to nothing with Tesco coffee - even if you do eventually get it dialled in with these beans as soon as you use fresh ones you'll be starting again


Nope, I have definitely stuck in more coffee before, it takes 20g to get to the point where I can't lock in the PF properly. The person suggested 18g but I guess that was before I told them it's a 14g basket. 14g in the basket gets nowhere near the top of the basket & water just runs straight through.

I just want to find the range on my grinder between too fine and too coarse. Unfortunately I just can't seem to get to 'too fine'. I know there would be some variation with other beans but according to other people this is only like 1-2 steps on this particular grinder for them, however I've gone from "14" to "1", still too coarse, readjusted the grinder to as fine as I possibly can and it looks like it's still too coarse if I can trust the fast flow is due to the grind size and nothing else.

I have NEVER got my Gaggia to the point where it takes more than 5ish seconds for the shot to start pulling. I'm trying to find the extremes & just cant.


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## richwade80

Liasis said:


> Could be - I literally replaced the gasket yesterday so maybe I put it in upside down or something?
> 
> I'm a newbie so it's possible im not putting in the portafilter hard enough? I don't want to force it but I feel like it's in right. It's a new 58mm, should be right?


You shouldn't need to force it.

Try with less coffee first and rule that out.

You could also check where the PF locks in without any coffee. It should be the same position when with coffee without having to force it.


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## Mrboots2u

Liasis said:


> Nope, I have definitely stuck in more coffee before, it takes 20g to get to the point where I can't lock in the PF properly. The person suggested 18g but I guess that was before I told them it's a 14g basket. 14g in the basket gets nowhere near the top of the basket & water just runs straight through.
> 
> I just want to find the range on my grinder between too fine and too coarse. Unfortunately I just can't seem to get to 'too fine'. I know there would be some variation with other beans but according to other people this is only like 1-2 steps on this particular grinder for them, however I've gone from "14" to "1", still too coarse, readjusted the grinder to as fine as I possibly can and it looks like it's still too coarse if I can trust the fast flow is due to the grind size and nothing else.
> 
> I have NEVER got my Gaggia to the point where it takes more than 5ish seconds for the shot to start pulling. I'm trying to find the extremes & just cant.


Stale beans....You are using stale beans. Again you will learn nothing about grind settings using these.

It's not a 14 g basket , its a double . As suggested try 16 g with good quality coffee.


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## Liasis

Mrboots2u said:


> Stale beans....You are using stale beans. Again you will learn nothing about grind settings using these.
> 
> It's not a 14 g basket , its a double . As suggested try 16 g with good quality coffee.


Well this is the one I bought: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Replacement-Portafilter-Basket-Espresso-Machines/dp/B01N2735XT


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## Mrboots2u

Liasis said:


> Well this is the one I bought: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Replacement-Portafilter-Basket-Espresso-Machines/dp/B01N2735XT


So its not the stock basket than came with the machine? Again 14g double is old italian talk. I suspect it will fit 16g fine .

16 g , 5 p coin on top , can you lock portafiler in and it not leave an ident .

Ive been where you are, using supermarket beans to dial in or practice with. Anything I relate is with the experience so you can move on from it quickly. I suspect the PF is over full and not locking in right as other people have suggested.

You can try with your home roasted coffee day 5 i'd say. It would be better to get something you know the taste of and thats roasted elsewhere ( local cafe perhaps ? )


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## richwade80

Mrboots2u said:


> Stale beans....You are using stale beans. Again you will learn nothing about grind settings using these.
> 
> It's not a 14 g basket , its a double . As suggested try 16 g with good quality coffee.


To be fair, I used to use old beans on a classic back in the day (off the shelf from Sainsbury's and the like) and could still get it ground fine enough to block the machine.

Agreed it's not really the way to do it, but the OP seems to have fundamental problems if he can't get close.

Or are we talking staler than that?


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## Liasis

Mrboots2u said:


> So its not the stock basket than came with the machine? Again 14g double is old italian talk. I suspect it will fit 16g fine .
> 
> 16 g , 5 p coin on top , can you lock portafiler in and it not leave an ident .


Not the exact stock one, but I do have the actual stock one & it looks identical in size, just with a ridge along the middle.

Will try the 5p trick. I definitely will try with the local coffee once it's aged, I just had nothing else to practice on as it's the only local toaster in the area & I wanted to keep trying.


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## Liasis

richwade80 said:


> To be fair, I used to use old beans on a classic back in the day (off the shelf from Sainsbury's and the like) and could still get it ground fine enough to block the machine.
> 
> Agreed it's not really the way to do it, but the OP seems to have fundamental problems if he can't get close.
> 
> Or are we talking staler than that?


Thats what I want to do - solve the fundamental issue. Surely grind size shouldn't be seriously impacts by stale-ish beans?

I bought some earlier today from Tesco with a best before date of March 2019, assuming they give 12 months from roast date then it can't be that old. From photos in linked album (earlier post) it had a bit of crema and that didn't disappate over the 5 mins it took me to get around to frothing milk.


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## salty

Are you sure the previous owner of the grinder didn't change the calibration to a coarser setting? - which would explain why even at 1 it's too fast

I know you want to put more than 14g in the basket but just while you're figuring things out why not go for 14g and use that as your reference point?

I bought Tesco beans to season my feldgrind. Complete waste of time plus they were so oily I had to strip the grinder down to clean it afterwards. And as everyone has said - there's no point trying to make good coffee with cheap beans. Plus there's a reason why they're cheap.

Definitely worth checking your seal to make sure you have it the right way round - if there's any embossed writing etc that needs to be facing upwards into the machine. The side that the PF locks into needs to be smooth.

And although you don't want to lock the PF with massive force it does need to be tight - in around the 6 o'clock position.

You've probably seen this but just in case...

http://






Plus others that demonstrate using the adjustment


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## ajohn

If the machine has had some months not being used the portafilter seals can go hard.

Typical 14g basket - I'd be inclined to try 13.5g in it. If it's low the top of the puck after a shot is pulled is usually not flat. Really low a soggy mess or a very loosely held together puck. Bit higher and reaching the shower screen and the puck may stick to to it, a touch more will fix that. Then your over filling which you may want to do but I'd be inclined to say probably no more than another 1/2g. You need to leave space for the grounds to expand when the shot is pulled. Some people use a coin. Tamp, place the coin on it, fit the portafilter, remove and check if the coin has left an impression. The basic idea is just high enough not to leave an impression. I'd guess a £1 coin could be suitable but I'd expect it to leave it a little high.

On my SGP a typical setting for a none fresh roasted bean is 13. On my Barista Express that will cause the over pressure valve to open with most of them - 15 bar on these machines. More than enough for a Gaggia even if it's set to 9 bar. This was with basket that holds about 14g too.







How many beans ground like that, lots of 40g sample packs, 3 Liddl wooden barrels, 250g each, and a 250g pack of Liddl beans. Some Aldi too just to condition the grinder, none drunk other than one sip before it went into the sink.

As a check to see what's going on you could try a pressurised basket if you have one. These control the shot especially if the grind is too coarse. A Sage dual boiler one would probably fit as well but doesn't need the funny Gaggia plastic part.

John

-


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## Liasis

Alright, so I have done some more trials with my machine.

At 14g in the basket, there is the smallest of indents if I stick a 5p piece in. I've tried to stick as close to dosing 14g in for the rest of my trials.

Ever since this dose, + using WDT, + really pushing in my portafilter (before the handle was at 8'oclock, now it's at 6), I've not had any crazy spurting/channeling. I really should have thought of the PF not being in securely considering its a new gasket!

I bought an espresso blend from a local roaster which is the darkest blend I've used so far. At Size 13 & Size 5 grind size (espresso range is 1-30 on my machine), I got tasty espresso (well, a tasty flat white - I'm assuming the espresso tasted good) & it was the first time that my machine ever had a shot that lasted over 20 seconds (only just)... once I got down to size 5. I felt like celebrating when it dropped out so slowly!

However, I then switched over to a medium roast Yirgacheffe, and my troubles have started again. Even at grind size 1 I can't get a shot lasting over 10s, it just pours out. Shot was weirdly bitter & smoky and on my second trial when I took out the PF, half the puck was stuck to the GH and the other half was in the basket. Unsure what to make of that.

I'm either thinking that a) my grinder isn't capable of grinding consistently at size 1 and I need to back off to a coarser grind, and it's this lack of consistency that's causing fast shots or b) my grinder simply can't go fine enough for medium/light roasts. Unsure what to think. People seem to love the SGP and say it's more than capable for espresso but I'm unsure still. Maybe I need to try a bit more in the size 8 area, before I feel the grinder struggling to copy with the grind size being turned down (this happens around size 4).


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## MWJB

What do your shots weigh?

Maybe get a bigger basket.


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## tristansummers

Not sure if this is still relevant, but has bean advised me to wait about 4 days after roasting before using any pressure brewing methods. I think it is still releasing too much carbon dioxide at this point and the bubbles cause problems. So a bag a week is needed with rest time. Man this stuff is just too hard.


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## Liasis

tristansummers said:


> Not sure if this is still relevant, but has bean advised me to wait about 4 days after roasting before using any pressure brewing methods. I think it is still releasing too much carbon dioxide at this point and the bubbles cause problems. So a bag a week is needed with rest time. Man this stuff is just too hard.


Yeah I agree with your last point! The yirg is about a week old so that shouldn't be a factor :/


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## Liasis

MWJB said:


> What do your shots weigh?
> 
> Maybe get a bigger basket.


Would an 18g basket slow extraction time if the grind is too coarse?

Shots are weighing between 36g in 14s (size 13), to 28g in 21s (size 5) but then 33g in 21s (size 3) which is making me confused. The first two shots tasted better so I'm wondering if I need to dial the size back up and my grinder can't cope with a small size. I wasn't super consistent on stopping at the right weight so that's not helping things I suppose.

The yirg was 26g in 15s (size 2) and 30g in 13s (size 1), both somewhat unpleasant. Supposed to be 'winey' tasting, great smell but smoky & bitter.


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## MWJB

Liasis said:


> Would an 18g basket slow extraction time if the grind is too coarse?
> 
> Shots are weighing between 36g in 14s (size 13), to 28g in 21s (size 5) but then 33g in 21s (size 3) which is making me confused. The first two shots tasted better so I'm wondering if I need to dial the size back up and my grinder can't cope with a small size. I wasn't super consistent on stopping at the right weight so that's not helping things I suppose.
> 
> The yirg was 26g in 15s (size 2) and 30g in 13s (size 1), both somewhat unpleasant. Supposed to be 'winey' tasting, great smell but smoky & bitter.


It's not easy to process what you are doing because you are changing everything with every post. We can't see the progression of events because there is no methodical approach. You don't mention which have the best flavour.

Yes, an 18g basket will hold more coffee, at the same grind as you use in the 14g basket, this will provide more resistance & slow the shot.

Change the grind setting to steer the flavour (at a constant brew ratio), not the brew time.

If your shots are running fast because your grinder can't grind fine enough, pull the shots to a longer ratio for now (start at 1:5, so 14g in:70g out). Concentrate on the Yirg, fixing the darker roast will be easier when the Yirg is dialled in, than the other way around.

You should be able to kill the pump at the same weight (target -5 to 10g?) in the cup each time, then let it run/drip out to your final target. Slide the cup off the drip tray at desired weight, or slip a saucer under the PF & over the cup. +/- 2 or 3g is easy enough to do.


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## MWJB

If the weights times & settings you list are in chronological order, setting 13 ran fast, 5 slowed down, then as you went finer shots sped up again. Try going back to 5 to start with.


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## jonnycooper29

I don't know if this is an appropriate place to put this, but I didn't think it was worthy of a new thread!

Ive had the sgp for about 2 weeks and I decided to take a photo of the puck after ive pulled a shot. I know that this grind was a tad coarse, but it looks like the grind is uneven too because of the larger grinds on the surface?


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## MWJB

jonnycooper29 said:


> I don't know if this is an appropriate place to put this, but I didn't think it was worthy of a new thread!
> 
> Ive had the sgp for about 2 weeks and I decided to take a photo of the puck after ive pulled a shot. I know that this grind was a tad coarse, but it looks like the grind is uneven too because of the larger grinds on the surface?.


If the grind is coarse, then there will be larger particles visible. It doesn't mean that the grind quality is less even, just that it is coarser.

During pre-infusion there will be opportunity for some of the surface grounds to float & mingle with the brew water, larger ones take more time to become waterlogged so may be more visible by settling on the surface of the spent puck. I wouldn't take it as a sign of anything much.


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## Liasis

Hi all,

Just for some closure on this thread/for posterity - a few days after this my grinder starting making clacking noises & then a high-pitched screaming sound and it could no longer grind. Thankfully it was under warranty & I was able to get a brand new machine!

It took me about 3 shots with the new grinder to dial into the correct range, and I am FINALLY able to pull a 1:2 ratio in 25 seconds and make some good tasting espresso. Woohoo! The upside is that so much practicing distributing & tamping means my very first shot was pretty perfect - no channeling or spurting, beautiful tiger striping, and it came out nice and slow with lovely crema.

So, if you just can't pull the right shot and you think your smart grinder pro is grinding too coarse even when you're on incredibly fine settings.... maybe it's because it's broken!

Thanks everyone for your help trying to get to the bottom of this!


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## Michael87

Liasis said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Just for some closure on this thread/for posterity - a few days after this my grinder starting making clacking noises & then a high-pitched screaming sound and it could no longer grind. Thankfully it was under warranty & I was able to get a brand new machine!
> 
> It took me about 3 shots with the new grinder to dial into the correct range, and I am FINALLY able to pull a 1:2 ratio in 25 seconds and make some good tasting espresso. Woohoo! The upside is that so much practicing distributing & tamping means my very first shot was pretty perfect - no channeling or spurting, beautiful tiger striping, and it came out nice and slow with lovely crema.
> 
> So, if you just can't pull the right shot and you think your smart grinder pro is grinding too coarse even when you're on incredibly fine settings.... maybe it's because it's broken!
> 
> Thanks everyone for your help trying to get to the bottom of this!


 @Liasis hello,

I'm thinking I might have a similar issue with my SGP. What setting are you usually using now too get good espresso on a light roast?

I'm at about to 2 to get any kind of resistance.

I'm dosing 18g in an 18g basket, going for 1:2.5 and it's taking about 10-20 seconds and coming out very sour.

I'm not sure how to test the grinder. It's under warranty.


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## lake_m

Michael87 said:


> @Liasis hello,
> 
> I'm thinking I might have a similar issue with my SGP. What setting are you usually using now too get good espresso on a light roast?
> 
> I'm at about to 2 to get any kind of resistance.
> 
> I'm dosing 18g in an 18g basket, going for 1:2.5 and it's taking about 10-20 seconds and coming out very sour.
> 
> I'm not sure how to test the grinder. It's under warranty.


 My experience with the SGP is that it can not cope with light roasts and the majority of decaf. (It can do Illy decaf ok)

Stick with medium and dark roasts and you should be ok.


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## ajohn

Michael87 said:


> @Liasis hello,
> 
> I'm thinking I might have a similar issue with my SGP. What setting are you usually using now too get good espresso on a light roast?
> 
> I'm at about to 2 to get any kind of resistance.
> 
> I'm dosing 18g in an 18g basket, going for 1:2.5 and it's taking about 10-20 seconds and coming out very sour.
> 
> I'm not sure how to test the grinder. It's under warranty.


 Sound's like the grinder wasn't calibrated correctly when it was made. What they have to do is work the final part of the adjustment until the burrs touch and then align the parts that give the numbers to that.

Checking is a little tricky but one way that might work out is to empty the grinder and run it *briefly* at a setting of one. People who have used them will know how it sounds when it's grinding beans. At this setting it should sound slightly busy as the burrs are rubbing. The other way would be to run it while adjusting down and listen for the point where it's rubbing. The manuals details how to set the burrs finer or people with a new one have the opportunity to report a fault to Sage. An engineer might then just adjust the burrs.

On the other hand if they aren't having problems with fine grinding just get on with it. The adjustment is so fine there is no point people comparing numbers.The numbers don't matter - just the grind that comes out. If some one buys used it's worth checking as above. Thanks to youtube etc twerps who think setting the burrs to there finest setting allows finer grinding. It just changes the numbers so no point in touching them at all unless needed.

It is nice to know how fine the grinder can be set to because there should be no need to go that fine or even near it. Useful if some one happens on crap beans. I've tried all sorts and never had that problem other than one pack of none fresh roasted. Oddly some rather expensive ones that some one bought me for a present.

 I get fed up with hearing dismissive comments about Sage's grinders. I've stuck all sorts through one and no problems. One person changed because they thought it was struggling due to motor noises changes while it was grinding. Most likely on lighter roasts. It's just a characteristic of the type of motor they use. Probably some extent of uneven roasting as well. Stick the same burrs in an Oracle in some cases with the same number generating parts and people who do drink coffee have made positive comments about it. As I am.

John

-


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## Michael87

Thank you very much for quick responses. I'll look into testing the alignment.


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## joey24dirt

ajohn said:


> Sound's like the grinder wasn't calibrated correctly when it was made. What they have to do is work the final part of the adjustment until the burrs touch and then align the parts that give the numbers to that.
> Checking is a little tricky but one way that might work out is to empty the grinder and run it *briefly* at a setting of one. People who have used them will know how it sounds when it's grinding beans. At this setting it should sound slightly busy as the burrs are rubbing. The other way would be to run it while adjusting down and listen for the point where it's rubbing. The manuals details how to set the burrs finer or people with a new one have the opportunity to report a fault to Sage. An engineer might then just adjust the burrs.
> On the other hand if they aren't having problems with fine grinding just get on with it. The adjustment is so fine there is no point people comparing numbers.The numbers don't matter - just the grind that comes out. If some one buys used it's worth checking as above. Thanks to youtube etc twerps who think setting the burrs to there finest setting allows finer grinding. It just changes the numbers so no point in touching them at all unless needed.
> It is nice to know how fine the grinder can be set to because there should be no need to go that fine or even near it. Useful if some one happens on crap beans. I've tried all sorts and never had that problem other than one pack of none fresh roasted. Oddly some rather expensive ones that some one bought me for a present.
> I get fed up with hearing dismissive comments about Sage's grinders. I've stuck all sorts through one and no problems. One person changed because they thought it was struggling due to motor noises changes while it was grinding. Most likely on lighter roasts. It's just a characteristic of the type of motor they use. Probably some extent of uneven roasting as well. Stick the same burrs in an Oracle in some cases with the same number generating parts and people who do drink coffee have made positive comments about it. As I am.
> John
> -


I've just got one of these and mainly use light roasts. You can definitely hear it groan a bit but will chew through them.

Have you looked into any mods for these to reduce clumping?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ajohn

Not aware of any and didn't find it that bad. When I sold mine I did warn the buyer about one problem I had. Weighing in with my oily beans. It would do a number and then clog up. Odd really as I was mostly using it for weighing in and that was the only bean that did this. I didn't use it much hopper on and never with my oily beans. Those were in the hopper on the BE and came out pretty fluffy. I had changed roaster however when I tried this. New ones are lighter in colour but still have a heavy coating of oil as the others did. Just takes longer to appear. The others tended to arrive like that from Redber but then their roasting went all over the place. They get moans about the oily ones clogging grinders.

I have found one further thing about getting them to settle while getting my BE back up running. When I noticed what was going on with retention I had run many beans through it. It looks like the portion that doesn't matter needs to congeal somewhat before it totally stays there and doesn't matter. The BE has been fitted with a brand new grinder so trying to get it back into the state it was in. The engineer mentioned that the burrs will run in. On other grinders I have noticed that clumping does change over time so have fitted the old ones. Hard for me to do much at the moment as things keep getting moved around but will be putting some cheap amazon beans in it's hopper and grinding some twice a day for a week and see what happens to the retention. These beans

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07CGXZMT3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 can't say I like the taste but they tune ok and clump a bit much like many what ever grinder they are in. From what I have done flat burr grinders converted for weighing in may not clump at all. The mazzer mini didn't but grinders vary and there are some odd factors involved. One for instance could be how much the impeller that drives them out compresses them.

When I says "stays there" there is some transfer when beans are changed but a couple of shots gets rid of it and it's little anyway. I just drank them out of curiosity. Truthfully speaking I only really noticed any change on the first shot.

John

-


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## Bica60s

ajohn said:


> Sound's like the grinder wasn't calibrated correctly when it was made. What they have to do is work the final part of the adjustment until the burrs touch and then align the parts that give the numbers to that.
> 
> Checking is a little tricky but one way that might work out is to empty the grinder and run it *briefly* at a setting of one. People who have used them will know how it sounds when it's grinding beans. At this setting it should sound slightly busy as the burrs are rubbing. The other way would be to run it while adjusting down and listen for the point where it's rubbing. The manuals details how to set the burrs finer or people with a new one have the opportunity to report a fault to Sage. An engineer might then just adjust the burrs.
> 
> On the other hand if they aren't having problems with fine grinding just get on with it. The adjustment is so fine there is no point people comparing numbers.The numbers don't matter - just the grind that comes out. If some one buys used it's worth checking as above. Thanks to youtube etc twerps who think setting the burrs to there finest setting allows finer grinding. It just changes the numbers so no point in touching them at all unless needed.
> 
> It is nice to know how fine the grinder can be set to because there should be no need to go that fine or even near it. Useful if some one happens on crap beans. I've tried all sorts and never had that problem other than one pack of none fresh roasted. Oddly some rather expensive ones that some one bought me for a present.
> 
> I get fed up with hearing dismissive comments about Sage's grinders. I've stuck all sorts through one and no problems. One person changed because they thought it was struggling due to motor noises changes while it was grinding. Most likely on lighter roasts. It's just a characteristic of the type of motor they use. Probably some extent of uneven roasting as well. Stick the same burrs in an Oracle in some cases with the same number generating parts and people who do drink coffee have made positive comments about it. As I am.
> 
> John
> 
> -


 I agree. I had no issues with mine at all bar some clumping on the finer settings but could pull a great espresso by starting where Sage recommended (setting 12) and working either side of that. You hit on a point most people miss with these grinders....comparing numbers is meaningless as it depends how each was calibrated, hence Sage recommend a median setting within their stated "fine" range as the starting point for espresso grind. "12" on one might be closer to "10" on another depending on how the burrs were calibrated. The only time I had issues was with supermarket beans which were stale and that wasn't the grinder's fault. It's not that easy to diagnose anything obvious with conical burrs which may be mis-aligned apart from an inconsistent grind, but mine was fine and produced a lovely uniform grind every time.


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