# Rocket Evo V2 won't heat up. Element gone?



## louiscar

Hi Sorry if this is repeated - I tried to find out where I'd posted this and it didn't show up.....

My Rocket Evo 2 decided to stop heating up this evening and I was wondering about either:

1) Doing this myself (not 100% sure, even though I do take on DIY stuff).

2) Finding someone to do it fairly local to me.

I can buy the heating element from Bella Barrisata but the thought of getting them to do it is a bit much as the pain of getting it to them for one and their high rates.

I wonder if anyone knows of someone in the Sussex area (I'm in Brighton) that may be up to doing this or some advice about doing it myself. Rocket owners that have done this can perhaps express how easy / difficult it is to achieve this.

The idea of being without coffee is causing stress reactions 

Louis


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## Hasi

does it draw power?


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## MediumRoastSteam

Find the cause first, Then fix it. Don't assume it's the heating element. People here should help you diagnose the issue.

As Hasi says, does it draw power? Do you hear the service boiler filling up? Is the pump working?


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## Alan Kilroy

I have a new Rocket......couple of months old.

New versions (Appartamento) have a sleep mode after 90 minutes, machine cools down, pressure drops etc. Triggered from sleep mode by flicking the brew lever.

This was an email from Rocket Italy to the dealer where I bought it.


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## louiscar

Hi All,

First off is there a way I can be email notifications. I have got the notify selected but didn't get any email, I happened to have the page open and refreshed it.

Anyway on to the questions.

Does it draw power? According to my electricity monitor there is no discernable drain however, without the element it probably won't show.

So I believe though everything else is working but hard to say. I only noticed this when my coffee was lukewarm. Ie. Light is on, water sensor is working, and water is pumped when lever is operated. So as it stands it appears that the only thing that isn't working is the heater.

I've been looking at an old "Rocket tear down" video from Whole Latta Love and I see there's a little red reset button. Maybe that's popped but I've yet to open her up to have a look at that. They say it was for overheating and some other "high state detection".

So armed with that knowledge where's the best place to start?


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## Hasi

Do you get hot water from water tap, or steam from steam tap respectively?


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## louiscar

No, the boiler pressure is sitting at 0 so nothing is getting heated up. If it were I'd see 1200 watts hit my monitor.

Edit: I just tested one more thing. After taking the water tank out I filled it back up with water and the sensor turns the pump on to fill the boiler. So that all works too


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## Hasi

well, that's two different things.

Also, it depends on heat cycle when it draws power. Element is not always on!

However, your problem could have many other causes.
Controller dead, temp probe dead, other electrical fault (corroded, loose or broken wire), heavy limescale build-up,... to name a few.

When you say lukewarm coffee, there needs to be some life left in your machine!

When was your last descaling run? How and how often did you do them?


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## louiscar

Descaled once and screwed the machine up - it's a long story and I should avoid going into what happened. You aren't supposed to do that with these machines apparently so I use Brita filtered water only. I know there may be scaling but when I got a lukewarm coffee I had a perfectly hot one 1 hour earlier.

Lukewarm - there needs to be some life left in your machine???? I don't understand this statement. The machine was ok up till I made the second coffee.

Descaling problem would lead, I assume , to a gradual decrease in performance. This is not heating - an hour before it was perfect.

Anyway, I have the machine open ... finally (it took a while) and I have measured voltage to the element at 234 v. That means the power is getting to the contacts and the element is not responding so is that conclusive? I also checked the red trip button and it had not popped.

Access to that element is not pretty and I don't really have the tools to get it out and new one in. I had a bad experience with my Rancilio Silvia where trying to get the connection off from the boiler ended up in my breaking the boiler. It was well and truly stuck. I really don't want to take this machine apart completely - it looks like a nightmare to me. ?


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## Hasi

my guess is it's scaled up to a point where heat would hardly transfer through the 'coating'.

Chances are that you ruin element in the long run because heat is being trapped underneath limescale. Or that's already taking place...

better shoot this rocket to a professional care taker if you cannot strip it down completely on your own. Descaling something that's not been looked after for a while bears the risk of clogging pipework or drains. Then you'll need to disassemble anyways - only with time pressure from acid that's locked in.

Re filters - you might want to check hardness of your filtered water. You'll be amazed!


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## El carajillo

Can you remove the two boiler terminals and then connect your meter (set to ohms) to the terminals and take a reading, make a note of this.

Also (if you can access the terminals) test between a terminal and the boiler case or good earth, repeat on other terminal to boiler case, again note the reading and report back.

What is the water like in Brighton ?? very hard ?. If the water is hard and you are using a Brita filter the boiler / element is likely to be heavily scaled.

How often do you cahange the filter ??


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## louiscar

Hasi said:


> my guess is it's scaled up to a point where heat would hardly transfer through the 'coating'.
> 
> Chances are that you ruin element in the long run because heat is being trapped underneath limescale. Or that's already taking place...
> 
> better shoot this rocket to a professional care taker if you cannot strip it down completely on your own. Descaling something that's not been looked after for a while bears the risk of clogging pipework or drains. Then you'll need to disassemble anyways - only with time pressure from acid that's locked in.
> 
> Re filters - you might want to check hardness of your filtered water. You'll be amazed


 Hasi, with all due respect I am very grateful for your input and help so pleased don't get me wrong, however, I was not looking at why the element has failed I am trying 1) to find out if it has actually failed and 2) I was asking for suggestions on who might be able to fix it locally to me.

I had a Rancilio Silvia before this and yes scaling is always a problem but it's not nearly as bad as you say. When I finally opened the boiler after 8.5 years of use the element was pretty clean but scale had gathered at the bottom. For this period of use I was quite surprised.

In the case of this Rocket, your "guess" is not really relevant to my description of the symptoms because I described a situation where the machine decided to stop heating altogether and suddenly. The reason the machine is not heating up has nothing to do with scale in this case, I am not saying that scale hasn't degraded the performance (although I can't say I've noticed it frankly), or that it isn't a contributing factor to the cause of the failure.

As I explained previously, up to today I have had perfect coffees from it and they have always been hot enough, so heat has no problem transferring from the element.
Heat up times have been pretty quick.

So it seems to me that the failure of the element is the most likely thing here regardless of the causes and due to establishing that the machine is indeed asking for heat and supplying voltage to the terminals.

Elements of course can and do fail naturally regardless of scale or lack thereof and as I bought this machine nearly 6 years ago I guess it's hard to say if this is an unlucky failure or due to very heavy scaling. I'll try to get some actual data when this is opened up.

Anyway, as it happens I have been phoning and emailing people today (I don't like the idea of being without coffee - I just had 6KG delivered ) , and have found someone fairly close to me that will pick the machine up and I am asking him to do a full service with particular attention to scale debris in the boiler.

I was going to sell the Rocket anyway in the new year so a good service is going to be needed.



El carajillo said:


> Can you remove the two boiler terminals and then connect your meter (set to ohms) to the terminals and take a reading, make a note of this.
> 
> Also (if you can access the terminals) test between a terminal and the boiler case or good earth, repeat on other terminal to boiler case, again note the reading and report back.
> 
> What is the water like in Brighton ?? very hard ?. If the water is hard and you are using a Brita filter the boiler / element is likely to be heavily scaled.
> 
> How often do you cahange the filter ??


 I think it's fairly hard but I haven't done any tests other than notice that soap lathers reasonably ok . Where I lived before here I remember having a hard time getting a lather as the water was really hard there. So I guess it's probably hard but not the hardest.

Filter change is monthly, sometimes longer sometimes less but I try to make sure it's not left too much longer if I exceed the time.
BTW what is notable for instance is that when I started using Brita filters, many moons ago, my kettle element had very little scale and from that point I used them ever since.

Regarding your tests ... thanks for the help, I wish I had got to this whilst the machine was still open, however, after contacting the service people I've now put it all back together so that they can pick it up from me.

I will ask the guy to let me know how much scale was present.

I am not sure how I can make it better as Brita seems to be my main solution. I don't really want to buy Volvic all the time and I can't plumb it in. 
Andrew Meo told me when I had a problem on my first descale "you are not supposed to descale these machines". So ... err ...

I'll have to see what the scale is like after the service and have a think on what to do going forward depending on the result.


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## Hasi

No need to be impolite, you're free to believe whatever you want. Not only you and your machine, but all other folk who are searching for a solution to their similar problem might be able to take a thing or two with them. We are a forum, not a personal hotline...

There is no element that fails at one point, then get its act together on another occasion just to fail again the next minute. Technically impossible. Therefore I've told you to check for an issue around wires and connectors, for example by testing resistance with an ohm/multi meter.

If you drain hot water and boiler has difficulties to heat it back up to temp (as per your description), then obviously there is something hindering proper heat transfer. This can happen directly on element itself or by a clot in either thermosyphon pipework or group internals. This is because if there's no hot water cycling through your group, a cold group will pull enough heat from hot water during shot that it comes out only lukewarm.

If limescale is the culprit, it might also have affected boiler pressure gauge take-off, so your reading might be off.

Lastly, without a machine on my workbench I can only guess, just like everybody else on here.
Anyhow, I'm curious to hear the ultimate story behind the failure, whether or not my inputs were helpful! Please keep us posted


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## louiscar

Hasi said:


> No need to be impolite, you're free to believe whatever you want. Not only you and your machine, but all other folk who are searching for a solution to their similar problem might be able to take a thing or two with them. We are a forum, not a personal hotline...


 Hasi, honestly it wasn't my intention to impolite and i tried to make it clear "not to get me wrong". But you did ask me some pertinent questions which I thought would go to "do this or use the mulitmeter here" but you said a couple of things that confused me.



Hasi said:


> well, that's two different things.
> 
> Also, it depends on heat cycle when it draws power. Element is not always on!
> 
> However, your problem could have many other causes.
> Controller dead, temp probe dead, other electrical fault (corroded, loose or broken wire), heavy limescale build-up,... to name a few.
> 
> When you say lukewarm coffee, there needs to be some life left in your machine!
> 
> When was your last descaling run? How and how often did you do them?


 First was "depends on the cycle ... " when I tell you that it would be drawing 1200 watts if it was heating. When the machine temperature is 0 or very low, the element would be on surely (100%) ... there is no cycle here the electronics would put full power until boiler reaches pressure /temp. So that was somehow strange to me. You then listed other things which were helpful but you then add the limescale factor. After this you just talk about descaling.

So I do have some logic due to my previous occupation, and it appeared that this was not the right path for me to be looking but sure all the other stuff ;controller, temp probe and electrical fault, wires etc. seemed very valid and needed some kind of elimination process.

That's when I figured to check for 2 things. 1 ) the red button 2) the voltage at the contacts which to me would prove the machine is asking for the element to heat the water.



Hasi said:


> If you drain hot water and boiler has difficulties to heat it back up to temp (as per your description), then obviously there is something hindering proper heat transfer. This can happen directly on element itself or by a clot in either thermosyphon pipework or group internals. This is because if there's no hot water cycling through your group, a cold group will pull enough heat from hot water during shot that it comes out only lukewarm.


 My description should perhaps have been clearer but it really was to say - the heating has stopped completely (no difficulties, but a complete failure). The "lukewarm" business was just to say this is what alerted me to the failure. I have one coffee and then an hour later not looking at gauges I pull another shot noticing the lack of crema and it being lukewarm. At this point I look down at the pressure gauge and realise that the machine is not heating and the temperature is just heading down to 0. I catch it at lukewarm, another hour and I would have cold coffee.

I think maybe this is where it might have caused the confusion and you thought this was being held at lukewarm rather than it was just cooling off without any attempt to heat or keep heated.

So really I sincerely apologise if you took offence and as I did say I didn't want you to take my logic arguments the wrong way. I fully understand this is a forum and not personal hotline but the original request was two fold and I needed to find the best way to sorting the problem. It was my mistake initially to be too verbose about the discovery. I hope you forgive me.

I will of course let you know how it goes. The guy phoned me to say he cannot pick it up till Friday so I'm going to dig out the percolator ..


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## Hasi

Sure thing, appreciate it 

I've had a V2 until recently, over the years thermosyphon pipework apparently clogged up to a point where I've encountered very similar symptoms. Heat up ok, maybe a bit slow. Second shot not up to temp. I've always used it plumbed in and attached to a Brita under counter filter at first, later to a BWT Aqasmart.
Descaling would free enough diameter to get her going again.

Upon selling and shipping the issue came back and buyer disassembled both pipes going from and to group to find build-up as well as residue that may have come loose during transport. Looked like this:










Shame on me tbh for not checking before. Surely won't happen again!

I know about Rocket not recommending descaling, although they endorse their own in-tank filters at the same time 
If you're a 1-cup-per-weekend user then I underline what they're saying. Most of us, however, keep their machines on all day, preparing multiple drinks in a row. Even though it doesn't constitute coffee shop frequency that requires complete strip down and acid bathing, obviously, truth surely lies somewhere in between the two extremes.


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## louiscar

Yes that truly looks awful.

So did you descale regularly despite the recommendations not to?

The problem with me was I did it and the group pressure fluctuated wildly- the needle tended to almost vibrate at times. Andrew Meo gave me some kind of info but we all think that some scaling had got caught up somewhere. Over time it got better so I ended up not doing anything but the issue was described here:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/22851-evo-2-pressure-all-over-the-place/?do=embed

So maybe I was just unlucky and if it hadn't happened I would have descaled more regularly most probably.

It would be interesting to know how many people do actually descale their e61 machines. I'm sure that there's not much difference between Rocket and other E61 devices so the question is how does everyone else manage?


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## El carajillo

I have a Verona/ E61 and even using Volvic I still de-scale (and it still needs it). Yesterday I took the panels off to give a good clean and do a visual inspection of all innards and connections, all OK, removed the level probe just for a check, showing start of light scaling.

I seem to recall reading an article where some boilers have a treatment applied and should not be de-scaled. I cannot recall the article but another member may chip in.

It would be interesting to hear from Rocket as to why the boilers should not be de-scaled and how to overcome the scaling problem, it would appear the special filters are not preventing this problem.


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## Hasi

I did descale pretty regularly, yes. Once a month, or maybe after six weeks if we haven't been drinking too much coffee.

There's quite a few minerals in any water that might form some sort of deposit depending on circumstances (pressure, temperature, presence of other molecules).
Descaling by pulling chemicals through bears the risk of bigger chunks coming loose and being dragged to places where they can cause issues.

Just on a slightly off-topic side note, please excuse... I've just had a 2002 Gaggia Classic on my bench the other day. Boiler looked like this when I opened it:








In bottom right "corner" of lower boiler part you can see a stone-like object of about 10mm in length. I suspect someone put in the wrong descaler and everything reacted funnily with aluminium boiler walls.
My point being, crazy things can happen around water specs and cleaning intentions


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## Hasi

El carajillo said:


> I have a Verona/ E61 and even using Volvic I still de-scale (and it still needs it). Yesterday I took the panels off to give a good clean and do a visual inspection of all innards and connections, all OK, removed the level probe just for a check, showing start of light scaling.
> I seem to recall reading an article where some boilers have a treatment applied and should not be de-scaled. I cannot recall the article but another member may chip in.
> It would be interesting to hear from Rocket as to why the boilers should not be de-scaled and how to overcome the scaling problem, it would appear the special filters are not preventing this problem.


Andrew Meo says something about coatings in here:






but not specifically referring to them using coated boilers.
Pretty much sums up what has been outlined earlier on here as well, btw


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## louiscar

Hasi said:


> ............
> 
> In bottom right "corner" of lower boiler part you can see a stone-like object of about 10mm in length. I suspect someone put in the wrong descaler and everything reacted funnily with aluminium boiler walls.
> My point being, crazy things can happen around water specs and cleaning intentions


 My very first coffee machine was a Saeco and they used aluminium parts and it really is not a good metal to use in a coffee machine. The grouphead actually broke one day and I noticed that coffee had eaten through the aluminium, it had deep pitting on the inside. Dread to think what it did to my stomach. I was considering Gaggia after that but saw they used Aluminium in their boilers so I opted for the Rancilio Ms Silvia.

So it's an interesting find re: Andrew Meo and good ol' Gale (I used to watch a lot of their vids drooling over the machines and thinking how being in USA or Australia is best for us coffee drinkers - UK almost exclusively caters for the commercial but I digress). I don't remember Andrew explaining exactly the reason so now we know and the question is - does that go for all E61 machines or just Rockets.



El carajillo said:


> I seem to recall reading an article where some boilers have a treatment applied and should not be de-scaled. I cannot recall the article but another member may chip in.


 I'm kind of guessing it's mainly Rocket because they produce the filters and I see such things as ECM descaler sachets so if they sell them branded for their machines they are quite happy for their machines to be descaled.
https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/ecm-descaler-for-espresso-machines-x-10-sachets.html

Although Andrew mentions the crap still floating around anyway which can not be removed and of course that led to my machine having pressure problems almost certainly because the released particles floated around until it found something to obstruct. He also mentions "aggressive solutions" but not all descalers are that aggressive - Bella sell Citric acid and people use vinegar. I wonder if these count? So it seems we have 2 main reasons for not descaling, one of them would apply to all machines and the other may just be for those that have specially coated boilers.

I knew of the Rocket filters but never bought one - so maybe I'll do that when my Rocket comes back. I think it's like a lot of things, you can minimise the ills but can never banish them and scale seems to be one of those.


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## ashcroc

louiscar said:


> I'm kind of guessing it's mainly Rocket because they produce the filters and I see such things as ECM descaler sachets so if they sell them branded for their machines they are quite happy for their machines to be descaled.
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/ecm-descaler-for-espresso-machines-x-10-sachets.html
> Although Andrew mentions the crap still floating around anyway which can not be removed and of course that led to my machine having pressure problems almost certainly because the released particles floated around until it found something to obstruct. He also mentions "aggressive solutions" but not all descalers are that aggressive - Bella sell Citric acid and people use vinegar. I wonder if these count? So it seems we have 2 main reasons for not descaling, one of them would apply to all machines and the other may just be for those that have specially coated boilers.
> I knew of the Rocket filters but never bought one - so maybe I'll do that when my Rocket comes back. I think it's like a lot of things, you can minimise the ills but can never banish them and scale seems to be one of those.


If you do choose to descale, your best off doing it regularly so the scale doesn't have a chance to get thick enough to cause flakes. Otherwise you're looking at a full stripdown so you can clean everything out before it causes a blockage.
Getting an RO machine (like DaveC reviewed recently) so the scale doesn't form in the first place is another option.


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## El carajillo

Hasi said:


> I did descale pretty regularly, yes. Once a month, or maybe after six weeks if we haven't been drinking too much coffee.
> 
> There's quite a few minerals in any water that might form some sort of deposit depending on circumstances (pressure, temperature, presence of other molecules).
> Descaling by pulling chemicals through bears the risk of bigger chunks coming loose and being dragged to places where they can cause issues.
> 
> Just on a slightly off-topic side note, please excuse... I've just had a 2002 Gaggia Classic on my bench the other day. Boiler looked like this when I opened it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In bottom right "corner" of lower boiler part you can see a stone-like object of about 10mm in length. I suspect someone put in the wrong descaler and everything reacted funnily with aluminium boiler walls.
> My point being, crazy things can happen around water specs and cleaning intentions


 NAH just put the coffee beans in the wrong place.


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## louiscar

ashcroc said:


> Getting an RO machine (like DaveC reviewed recently) so the scale doesn't form in the first place is another option.


 I hadn't seen that and so went to look. It's quite expensive but I think it may well just pay for itself if it keeps your machine scale free.

Got me thinking now ...


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## louiscar

I said I'd report back on this so here goes ..

Finally my machine is fixed (but not delivered yet). The engineer tells me that the element was indeed the problem and that he found the boiler was clean.

That's pretty good news after nearly 6 years. When I dropped the machine off to him I did ask him about filtration, mainly what he thought of the Rocket tank filters. He didn't seem to recommend them saying they were essentially salts which would likely be corrosive in time and end up tainting the drink. As for effectiveness he seemed to think they would not do much more than Brita filters.

I will talk more when I pick up the machine (maybe even get to see the old element ) but I'm reasonably happy that the Brita has actually been doing a reasonable job up till now.


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