# ZR-71 - grinder project



## dsc

Hi everyone,

things are slowly falling into the right places, so I thought I'd start a thread to give this project a bit of an audience. Haven't really got a name for it, but temporarily I'll call it 'the grinder project'.

For years I've been annoyed with the fact that the market is filled with grinders that offer not a lot for a lot of monies. Even paying big bucks doesn't give you a product which is perfect, far from it, you get something which was designed for a cafe environment (nothing wrong with that to be honest, but still a problem if you are looking for the ultimate solution), which retains a lot of coffee, doesn't dose properly, forces you to use WDT or other distribution methods and overall simply doesn't represent good value for money. Having successfully converted a used Mazzer Major to a doserless, E-type, grinder I thought the next natural step would be to build a grinder from scratch. I've toyed with a few ideas, spent too much time on the web researching, built an MDF prototype, designed / re-designed / designed / re-designed far too many times and finally got a step where I'm slowly getting parts done to assemble a full scale metal (aluminium) prototype. Here's a short list of things I've had in the back of my head all the time and things which (hopefully) will be incorporated in the design:

- zero retention

- fuss-less grind adjustment, none of the usual manual methods and wrestling with the grinder to turn a massive collar, or lock something in place

- ability to use a hopper approach or single dosing

- weighing system for dosing

- grind-tamp-lock, eliminating the need for WDT or redistribution

'Looks good on paper' I can hear you say to be honest the above is harder to implement than I thought it would be, but fingers crossed, the final model will tick all those boxes.

I'd love to share a photo or a drawing, but due to the fact that the grinder uses some new ideas (never used before in the grinder world) that will have to wait. I'm not sure whether I can protect the design in anyway (patenting seems like a possibility, but I haven't talked to anyone in a patent office yet. Oh and it costs monies), so the only way to make sure I don't see it sold by someone else is to limit the amount of sensitive information given away. I can share however that the grinder will not be small and will not be flimsy sorry to all those that hoped for something similar size-wise to a Versalab, but that's not going to happen, I needed quite a lot of space to pack all the magic making stuff inside and so it's 465mm x 190mm x 350mm (H x W x D), weighing at around 25kg, so close to a Robur. Look-wise it's more 'technical' than arty (not really a surprise due to my background), but hopefully not too bad looking.

The idea is to have this made and ready for the Titan Grind-off event later on in the year. Of course there's plenty of assembling, testing etc. to be done before, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Any questions, let me know, I might be able to answer them at this stage

Regards,

T.


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## coffeechap

I genuinely wish you the best of luck with this Tom, and i am really looking forward to potentially getting a play with it, it is a long overdue grinder for those of us who are genuinely interested in getting the best that is available, I am sure many more on here will share my enthusiasm for this project.


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## 4085

I, am looking forward to probably buying one!


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## Nimble Motionists

Sounds amazing. Anyone on the forum a patent officer?


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## lookseehear

I love reading about projects like this - can't wait to hear more!


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## 4085

I know for copyright, you take 2 sets of plans to a solicitor, they and you sign under oath to say that the design belongs to you and they they are kept by the solicitor and stay hidden until battle commences. that is much cheaper than the Patent Office but obviously that is your best bet in the long run


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## glevum

This sounds fantastic....best of luck


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## jeebsy

dfk41 said:


> I know for copyright, you take 2 sets of plans to a solicitor, they and you sign under oath to say that the design belongs to you and they they are kept by the solicitor and stay hidden until battle commences. that is much cheaper than the Patent Office but obviously that is your best bet in the long run


Copyright just exists in any work your create that meets the criteria, you don't need to actively get your work protected. Copyright applies more to artistic works than design but taking photos of any parts of the machine containing original ideas/work and posting them to yourself in a sealed envelope would be enough provide evidence that you can up with the idea on a certain date and give you some basic protection if anyone tried to rip it off (this is a bit old school - time stamped digital photos might be OK now).


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## dsc

Cheers guys.

As you can imagine I can't wait to get my hands on the parts and assemble something that took so long to design. I'm sure there's bound to be some 'crap that's not really designed well' moments, but at least it's going to be a test bed for any future improvements and design changes.

Regards,

Tom


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## dwalsh1

Tom. Are you the dsc on tmc with the T1?


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## dsc

I am indeed

Regards,

T.


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## dwalsh1

I'm a dick. I should of looked at your profile at the bottom of your thread.











dsc said:


> I am indeed
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


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## dsc

Lol

Regards,

T.


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## BlankBoxCoffee

All the best with this! Really like the idea of designing an affordable grinder from scratch.

Are you going to crowdsource on Kickstarter or IndieGoGo? Sure you'll have great support on there.


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## dsc

Cheers! not so sure about the 'affordable' bit though, especially when you throw 'precise' in the bag

I thought of Kickstarter, but I'm not sure that's needed, other than maybe for the crowds. I've got almost all the parts for the prototype, funding is done by myself, and I can't really see any other advantages of those websites.

Regards,

T.


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## aphelion

dsc said:


> Cheers! not so sure about the 'affordable' bit though, especially when you throw 'precise' in the bag
> 
> I thought of Kickstarter, but I'm not sure that's needed, other than maybe for the crowds. I've got almost all the parts for the prototype, funding is done by myself, and I can't really see any other advantages of those websites.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


This is a great project

I recently had a look at producing a "versalab style" grinder at home (CAD, fabrication of parts etc.)

I figured out that with all the external production of CMC parts, it would cost me well in excess of the cost of a new versalab (oops!)

Have you found a cheap way of getting your parts fabricated?

Regards


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## dsc

That is I'm afraid the biggest obstacle on the way to building...well anything really. The cost of manufacturing is astronomical for one-offs, especially CNC cut parts and especially in the UK. I've had quotes for very simple parts (say a rectangle aluminium plate with a few holes) which took the cost well above reasonable levels anyone is prepared to pay for a grinder and that is purely for a few parts, not mentioning stuff like the motor, controls, electronics etc. Unless you know someone in the industry who can do a job on the side (which quite often is a risk for the person doing it say on company owed machines without prior agreement with the employer - close to zero chances of getting that) or can do it yourself, I'm afraid it might be something stopping a project completely.

I wouldn't say I've found a cheap way, but I've done a LOT of research and contacted a lot of people which thankfully resulted in the parts being cut by someone experienced for reasonable monies. Whether that works in the long run, to keep production going if this project ends in success I don't know.

Regards,

T.


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## aphelion

dsc said:


> That is I'm afraid the biggest obstacle on the way to building...well anything really. The cost of manufacturing is astronomical for one-offs, especially CNC cut parts and especially in the UK. I've had quotes for very simple parts (say a rectangle aluminium plate with a few holes) which took the cost well above reasonable levels anyone is prepared to pay for a grinder and that is purely for a few parts, not mentioning stuff like the motor, controls, electronics etc. Unless you know someone in the industry who can do a job on the side (which quite often is a risk for the person doing it say on company owed machines without prior agreement with the employer - close to zero chances of getting that) or can do it yourself, I'm afraid it might be something stopping a project completely.
> 
> I wouldn't say I've found a cheap way, but I've done a LOT of research and contacted a lot of people which thankfully resulted in the parts being cut by someone experienced for reasonable monies. Whether that works in the long run, to keep production going if this project ends in success I don't know.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


On the plus side, I think it'd be really nice to have your own built grinder though (cost aside).

Perhaps once you've got the prototype together, you could look at bulk producton etc. ?

I'm sure some forum members would assist if the grinder was really desirable!


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## dsc

Indeed the satisfaction factor is rather important, it's the thing that fueled this project from the very start I will be looking at low level bulk production, as soon as I see that there's enough interest.

Regards,

T.


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## garydyke1

There will be!


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## 4085

Tom, subject to the usual palava, put me down as one who would like to be considered from the initial run


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## dsc

Hopefully it will be good enough for others to use!









Regards,

T.


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## dsc

Just an update, got a courier booked and should have the majority of the parts next week shaft-y bits should follow up 1-2 weeks later.

Regards,

T.


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## 4085

Good news! (I hope!)


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## coffeechap

really looking forward to this grinder tom


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## dsc

Well fingers crossed everything fits together will update this thread with some photos when parts arrive.

Regards,

T.


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## Southpaw

Good news







watching your progress with interest along with many others I'd guess.


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## CoffeeDoc

I hope it all fits together and I will look forward to seeing it when made.


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## dsc

Cheers guys, I'm checking tracking info every hour or so

Regards,

T.


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## dsc

Got the parts today...bummer, wasn't expecting so many f*ck'ups on machined parts it's back to looking for someone who can cut properly this time and trying to get my monies back...

Regards,

T.


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## aphelion

dsc said:


> Got the parts today...bummer, wasn't expecting so many f*ck'ups on machined parts it's back to looking for someone who can cut properly this time and trying to get my monies back...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


That sucks dude









Hope they do you some refunds??


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## dsc

I do hope so, I'll find out Monday. It's so close to being usable, but I can't do much to save it as I haven't got the machinery. Argh....

Regards,

T.


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## dsc

Right then, some positive news me thinks, met up with a gentleman today who will hopefully modify the incorrectly machined parts and it should be all go!









Also came up with a temporary name for the beast: ZR-71









Regards,

T.


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## coffeechap

Can't wait to see it man


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## dsc

Some good news, the gent I mentioned before is currently working on the plates to get them corrected and will produce the rest of the parts for the machine. All should be good soon

Regards,

T.


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## 4085

Bet you are just starting to get excited now!


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## garydyke1

Im excited ...and Roy is quaking in his titanium boots


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## Sharkie

dsc said:


> Right then, some positive news me thinks, met up with a gentleman today who will hopefully modify the incorrectly machined parts and it should be all go!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also came up with a temporary name for the beast: ZR-71
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


Sounds like a Kawasaki motorbike cool name


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## dsc

I can barely contain myself







seriously though, I'm keeping my fingers crossed to get the parts back quickly.

As for the name, for whatever reason to me it sounds a bit like a Russian tank

Regards,

T.


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## coffeechap

Sounds cool best of luck with this dude


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## dsc

Cheers guys for all the support!

Regards,

T.


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## Sharkie

dsc said:


> I can barely contain myself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> seriously though, I'm keeping my fingers crossed to get the parts back quickly.
> 
> As for the name, for whatever reason to me it sounds a bit like a Russian tank
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


A Kawasaki for sure

http://zr-7riders.8m.com/universal/intro.html


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## dsc

Ha, good to know Cheers Sharkie.

Regards,

T.


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## dsc

Parts got delayed which is frustrating but got some time to try out a few things:









Regards,

T.


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## coffeechap

71 was such a great year and that name is so similar to the lockhead sr-71 blackbird so should be stealthy and black in colour!!!


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## 4085

Hi Tom, I spend hours going through logos with my web designer, as I am having a new batch of letterheads etc done due to legislative changes. It is all subjective and personal, but if it was my logo, I would want something bolder and stronger. But thats just MHO of course!


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## glevum

Yep '71. Best year ever


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## dsc

The idea was to make it tall and thin, although I'm only playing around with the name and different fonts / sizes. The 71 is the size of the burrs if I decide to go bigger, there'll be two versions ZR-71 and ZR-83.

Regards,

T.


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## dsc

Parts are still on hold








working on the electronics in the mean time. Question for everyone from a user point of view, do you prefer pushbuttons (say a +, - and enter) or a rotating knob (+/- via rotating and push for select / enter) for human - machine interface? I've used a knob so far, but I'm a bit worried that it's rather easy to knock it / rotate it and change settings without even knowing.

Regards,

T.


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## 666tyler

If you like the rotating idea why not try a wheel like the shutter adjustment on a dslr camera


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## grinderman

I prefer a knob, but both have pluses and minuses. I'm doing a similar (weight dosing and awesome) ridiculous grinder project (or two), and chose a knob with a press for confirmation simply because a knob is easier to integrate finer or stepless control. I don't think the knob being knocked would be an issue as the grinder really shouldn't be positioned in such a way that it's easily knocked. If it worries you, just make the knob quite stiff to turn, which should prevent too many unnecessary mistakes.


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## coffeechap

Tell us more about your project grinderman


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## 4085

I like the idea of a visual display, a la K10 and dont care what I have to twiddle to see it!


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## dsc

I went with buttons for now, I can always go knob'y later if I want. You can go as fine as you want with buttons, with some clever programming you can easily incorporate fast / slow changes to parameters via buttons as well. As for knocking a knob, or any type of controller really, it's a possibility if it's part of the user interface which normally sits on the front of the grinder, as it should be easily accessible.

Regards,

T.


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## Mrboots2u

Is this project still going ?


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## dsc

It sure is electronics are close to finish, mechanical bits are waiting to be machined. I do hope to have this up and running when I come back from holidays (end of Sept).

Regards,

T.


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## Mrboots2u

Glad to hear it!


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## grinderman

coffeechap said:


> Tell us more about your project grinderman


Not my place to do so! It'll be a serious cafe grinder. I'll start a proper thread sometime soon with info and a couple of pictures.


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## Mrboots2u

grinderman said:


> Not my place to do so! It'll be a serious cafe grinder. I'll start a proper thread sometime soon with info and a couple of pictures.


Quite a lot of us have serious cafe grinders, so would be of interest to the forum


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## grinderman

Mrboots2u said:


> Quite a lot of us have serious cafe grinders, so would be of interest to the forum


Ha! I'll keep you posted, then


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## coffeechap

grinderman said:


> Not my place to do so! It'll be a serious cafe grinder. I'll start a proper thread sometime soon with info and a couple of pictures.


Is it yours or someone else's then?


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## dsc

Thought I'd drop a sneak-peak

















Regards,

T.


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## Xpenno

Looks like a great project, can't wait to see the finished product!

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2


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## dsc

Good news gents, final parts arrived today will take some photos tomorrow for sneak peaks, hoping to get things assembled during the weekend!

Stay tuned.

Regards,

T.


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## MrShades

The wait for even a sneak peek is killing me......


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## dsc

Damn, didn't think this would get a small audience

There's a small issue with one part, which means I need to send it back to get re-machined, but other than that I'm doing some tests and dry fits to see how things go together. I promise a shot or two later on today

Regards,

T.


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## dsc

As promised, just a quick shot, not much really, but I'm super busy with the assembly









More to come...

Cheers,

T.


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## coffeechap

Good keep it up Tom I am sure it will be great....


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## dsc

Cheers bud, certainly hope so.

Regards,

T.


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## dsc

FYI almost chopped my pinky off when a 2kg ali plate came of the countertop. Assembly on pause till tomorros... Plate 1 - 0 Foot.

Regards,

T.


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## dsc

Quick update, foot's not broken which is good, assembly is moving forward. I was faffing about with the parts for quite a while to get things how I want them to be, but it's getting close to finish now. I've done the shaft parts today, so that's ready to go in, all I need is get the frame set up properly and it should be a matter of doing up some bolts

Regards,

T.


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## Daren

I can't wait to see this. The suspense is killing me. Any chance of another sneek peek picture?


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## dsc

Will try Daren, it's just a bit hard trying not to reveal too much, yet still show something other than a close up of a bolt

Regards,

T.


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## dsc

Right then, shaft is now installed, I need to do some measurements to see how straight and parallel things are and run a DTI on the rotating parts. Next stage is top burr assembly and some no-load tests

Regards,

T.


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## coffeechap

Cool dude hopefully get this up and running soon man


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## dsc

yeah, fingers crossed, there seems to be a lot happening in the grinder world at the moment

Regards,

T.


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## coffeechap

Yes and you need to be in the mix


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## dsc

I know what you mean mate, it's all about the bloody spare time to do this. Working 11h a day doesn't work. Having no time for my missus doesn't work. Having no workshop, no heavy equipment and having to assemble on a kitchen table doesn't work. Wish this was something I got paid for as a full time job

Regards,

T.


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## coffeechap

Make a success of this and it might well be!!


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## Oaky

coffeechap said:


> Make a success of this and it might well be!!


Hi

Just found this thread as I'm also looking for a new grinder. This is an exciting project.

Feel for you with all those time pressures. I would like to make a couple of suggestions, sorry if have heard this before in this now long thread

1, Have you considered 'crowd sourcing this project' i.e demo the prototype then take some pre orders from guys on this site

2, I know a retired engineer near me in South Northants, he has a small workshop. He used to finish off F1 gear box parts etc. If it helps I can ask him for help?

I'm offering to help if you need help with commercial/legal documents, e.g supply agreements with suppliers

Best of luck!

S


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## dsc

Hi Oaky,

massive thanks for the offer to help, I will let you know if I need any additional assistance when it comes to parts making. Currently I have all the parts ready, it's just finding the time to get stuff assembled, as this is basically like a second job. I can't just commit myself to the project 100% as my missus would chop my head off can't blame her for that to be honest, I'm mad as it is now anyway

As for crowd sourcing, I was planning to have a small group of people test the prototype ie. get the grinder for a week or so to use it at home. That way you are more relaxed, not pressurised and can make your own conclusions as to whether it works or not. This is of course the next step, first I need to get the prototype to work

The main box is now assembled and the shaft + belt is in place, I'm not super impressed with the measurements, I'm getting 0.04 - 0.05mm off-parallel errors here and there and the surfaces are not as I want them to be, but I can't get any better without re-machining the parts, or making new ones. One last part to assemble is the top burr carrier, which I'm hoping to finish off today and then get the thing bolted true. From then on it will mostly be tinkering with cables and electronics.

Regards,

T.


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## coffeechap

I am passing through next weekend dude mind if I grab a look?


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## dsc

If it's up and running and most importantly working, I can see no reason why not, I'll let you know how it goes.

Regards,

T.


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## coffeechap

Cool lets see then.


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## origmarm

Hadn't spotted this thread before. Great project. Can't wait to see the result


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## garydyke1

If you need any home user beta-testers, Im in! Ive not used a better single dosing grinder for espresso than my modified Royal


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## coffeechap

There is a queue gary


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## garydyke1

Of course! Ill wait in line


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## coffeechap

I think this will be a fab grinder though


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## dsc

Another sneak peak:









Got the burrs aligned which is good and wasn't too hard, what's not so good is the crap finish on one of the parts which is causing the shaft to wobble by around 0.1mm, really annoying. I need to fix this before moving forward...

Regards,

T.


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## coffeechap

Nice keep them coming dude


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## dsc

Damn that was a quick reply

Will try to post some more today as I'm planning to mount the motor and run the shaft with no load to take some measurements.

Regards,

T.


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## dsc

Job's on hold, I have to get some parts re-machined which will roughly take a week or so.

I've had it all assembled, but couldn't run for a longer period due to inaccuracies. Will update this thread when it's back up and running.

Regards,

T.


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## dsc

Just to keep everyone in the loop, the new parts are now done and should be on their way to me tomorros. Hoping to get assembly finished over the weekend









Regards,

T.


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## dsc

Scratch that, TNT blows and probably won't deliver till Monday. Not happy









Regards,

T.


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## Charliej

dsc said:


> Scratch that, TNT blows and probably won't deliver till Monday. Not happy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


Hmm TNT blows, pun intended?


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## dsc

Lol just re-read that







not intended









Regards,

T.


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## dsc

Parts are here, I've done a quick test assembly, all looks good apart from a few minor details. Proper assembly tomorrow although it will probably be a few days before the thing is running.










Burr meets burr

Regards,

T.


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## dsc

As usual things like this take ages, especially when you need to order missing bits and it's before Christmas. Good news is that the frame is assembled, I have a few bolts to re-do today, apart from that I can slap the motor on and grind some coffee If that goes well, I'll post a video of some action.

Regards,

T.


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## dsc

Good news, the ZR-71 is up and running here's a video showing the grind, it can easily go finer than this:






Fluffy output:



 

More to come, I'm tidying the wiring today and hopefully pulling some shots on my toy-like Gaggia. I'm also planning to do some test shots on a GS3 either later on in Dec 2013 or early Jan 2014.

Regards,

T.


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## 4085

That is an interesting distribution Tom! Hopefully the unveiling will be soon!


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## dsc

I'd say that's standard for a suspended bottom burr design approach, it's simply the path the grinds exit the burrs dictated by the shape and angle of the burr set. There will be a funnel to direct the grinds into the basket.

Regards,

T.


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## Xpenno

Looking good! Can't wait for the unveiling!


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## LaCoruna

Very nice, but how do you make sure that there will be consitency in the grind in terms of steadily preasure coming from above, or is it still a secret ? Also, there is a visible run out of the shaft / burrs. Will it get fixed or is it "good enough" like it is now ? I am just asking because I read in other threads, that your demands in production and accuracy sets the benchmark very high, at least in other projects than yours. After reading:



dsc said:


> but due to the fact that the grinder uses some new ideas (never used before in the grinder world) that will have to wait. I'm not sure whether I can protect the design in anyway


 I am even more excited and thinking, that the best is yet to come. Good luck.


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## dsc

Steady pressure comes from beans if you are using a hopper approach (typical limitations with hopper dosing still applies). If you want to single dose, then you have no weight above the beans.

Run out currently is 0.04mm, although I'm planning to lower that further, just need a few more parts which are in the post. Have a look at the comment on the video, what looks like run out is simply the bottom burr retention plate being off center. This is one of the reasons why visual checks for run out are not to be trusted.

Regards,

T.


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## Guest

just want to say this is a great project, thanks for letting us read along


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## @3aan

Seems to be something like the Versalab M3 ?

I have a updted version from the VL m3, and have none what soever retention, whats going in is coming out no RDT needed,

extreem fluffy grinding, i do use this in my Coffee trailer, I'm pleased with this apparatus.


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## dsc

I've only just noticed this, looks like thread notification emails were going straight into the spam folder.

To me the hopper idea on the Versalab seems like an afterthought, a solution 'slapped on' at the end of the job, rather than something kept in mind whilst designing the machine. One of the reasons for that is probably the fact that you cannot run the motor with beans in the chamber as you risk stalling the thing. I don't have limitations like that, which is why both hopper or single dosing operation is possible.

Regards,

T.


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## Dylan

Awesome to see a project like this in the making... be great to see the unveiling.


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## dsc

Soon hopefully, I should have the final final final parts (how many times have I said that) next week, Monday (fingers crossed).

Cheers,

T.


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## dsc

Parts are here, we are cooking on gas









Early figures are looking very promising, proper assembly tomorrow









Regards,

T.


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## The Systemic Kid

Suspense is killing me, Tom!


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## CoffeeJohnny

I've been quietly reading along for months as I felt I had nothing to add. However just to say now I'm incredibly pleased for you that it's coming together must be satisfying


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## dsc

All I can say for now is that there's nothing quite like a nice 316 stainless 28mm dia shaft
















Hopefully I won't have to wrestle for too long today to get further parts fitted and should be able to upload a video of it in action (or just a dry crank).

Regards,

T.


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## Pompeyexile

Like others on here I have nothing to say that would help, i've just really enjoyed keeping up with your progress and chuffed it's going well for you after all the effort you've put in. I marvel and bow down to people such as you with the skills and persistance you posess. Can't wait to see the finished article.


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## dsc

Teaser!!









  

Runout +/-0.015mm which I'm quite happy with [corrected after a tweak: total runout 0.015mm, which I'm very happy with







]. Assembly finishes tomorrow









Regards,

T.


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## Mrboots2u

Tease indeed , good luck tomorrow !


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## Charliej

Showing your shaft off I see ... Ooo-er Missus.


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## dsc

Short update, the machine is now assembled and operational. I did a quick test run yesterday, but at midnight didn't really feel like pulling shots. I did have a pour-over this morning using some coffee ground yesterday (stale I know) and it was much different to what I'm used to from the Guatemala, less bitterness, even though there's more fines. Interesting.

I'll upload some photos / videos today.

Cheers,

T.


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## fluffykiwi

Why has this become like waiting for another episode of The Wire?

Good luck.


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## dsc

All it needs is some dramatic music in the background!









Regards,

T.


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## Daren

It's like the X factor pause before someone gets chucked off.... The suspense is too much!!

(no - I don't watch X factor)


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## dsc

Daren said:


> (no - I don't watch X factor)


Yeah right!









Regards,

T.


----------



## garydyke1

Im interested to see how a conical burrset can be effectively single-dosed .

Very interested !


----------



## dsc

Gary, what do you mean by 'effectively' ?

Regards,

T.


----------



## garydyke1

accessing grind path / zero retention / no popcorning of beans


----------



## dsc

I'd say is preferable to run with a hopper (simply easier), although currently I single dose as access is plenty.










T.


----------



## Xpenno

dsc said:


> I'd say is preferable to run with a hopper (simply easier), although currently I single dose as access is plenty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T.


Is that because the machine is in small bits on the counter


----------



## dsc

Should've said access is plenty as per design there's around 150mm of space above the burr, so you can load up plenty of coffee or single dose even with your feet if you like









Regards,

T.


----------



## dsc

Weekend turned out to be more busy than I thought, so progress isn't great. So far it's a mixed bag, I pulled some shots today which were very good, although I've also ran into problems which I haven't had before. Need to re-think a few elements as well as order some coffee, as I'm running through my stock pretty quickly.










I switched back to the standard burrs as I wanted to season them with rice, I will flip back to the TiN ones tomorrow for comparison.

Regards,

T.


----------



## Xpenno

The suspense is killing me


----------



## MarkyP

This looks very good!

dsc keep up the good work...


----------



## dsc

Cheers, guys, here some more

This:










+










=










It's a bit messy, but works, me thinks funnel needs geometry change, also there's currently no wiper under the burrs. Static is the real deal breaker for now, there's RDT but it's a faff. Nobel prize goes to anyone who becomes the static master.

Regards,

T.


----------



## Daren

Your such a tease! Give us the unvale!


----------



## Xpenno

Mmmmmm shiny! Static's a bitch for sure. I took my Mazzer doser to bits and forgot to put the plastic insert back in before grinding some beans. Aside from making a mess of the kitchen I noticed that loads of grinds were stuck to the side of the doser walls, presumably through static! Maybe a perspex insert somewhere could help it fall out nicely?

Obviously without pics we can't really help









Spence


----------



## Xpenno

It's worth saying that the grinds that did make it out look good


----------



## dsc

Tease!!!









With static it's the smallest particles (call it fines) that cling to everything and screw up the pours. All the things that Mazzer did with their grinders was for a purpose, even though a lot of people think it's lack of progress.

The above shot shows 18.0g in and 17.9g out, it is with the use of RDT, so not really faff-less.

Regards,

T.

EDIT:

"hopper" action:


----------



## garydyke1

Did you see this (another EK43 reference - yawn)

https://vine.co/v/hFUEDw2QuWx


----------



## dsc

Thanks for the link Gary, funny enough that's the idea I've been toying with for some time now. Wouldn't call it a static killer, just another approach to the problem.

Regards,

T.


----------



## garydyke1

Its an interesting point around static and Mazzer grinders. The mini-e was a nightmare with the 'grid' removed, and yet with the grid it made dense 'cubes' which were not much better!

The Mini, SJ, Major, Royal (Doser versions) dont seem to create any static with the doser attached. Remove it and its like rubbing a ballon on nylon and holding it near flour. Must be a dampening effect?!


----------



## dsc

I've seen dosers mad with static as well, guess it depends on the humidity, but indeed those metal Mazzer dosers seems to lower the amount of static build up (or increase the static discharge rate).

I'm not sure how bad static is on the Versalab, although that's a DRM burr set, so it's slightly different (more like a flat burr than conical). The HG One was the first conical straight through design and it looks like static hit them by surprise.

Regards,

T.


----------



## 4085

The static on the HG One is really variable, and the main driver seems to be atmospherics and location. I had mine in a converted garage next or near to the central heating boiler and had bad problems. They were all but alleviated by the water droplet technique and I just accepted that as part of the sequence of events you had to go through when using an HG One...and probably will have to go through again!


----------



## dsc

It's a well known fact that increasing humidity battles static, which is why RDT works so well. The faff factor is still there though, maybe not so much for single dosing, but hopper dosing definitely. It really depends how you want your grinder to operate, some people are fine grinding, swiping, brushing, mixing, dosing from bowl to basket etc. I'd love to move away from that, but so far it's proven to be rather problematic. On the other hand it also makes you realise why Mazzer and other manufacturers are sticking to their guns.

Regards,

T.


----------



## 4085

Not being an engineer type of person, I almost cringe at what I am about to say but........could you not build in an atomiser type arrangement, so that either when the burrs fire up or build in a delay switch on a few milliseconds, the things gives the minutest of releases of the much desired water! I do not think you will find a way around static as there are too many variables....and anyway, mazzer have not either.


----------



## dsc

Automated faff!!







I cringed myself when I came up with the same idea a while back









Regards,

T.


----------



## garydyke1

A revolutionary approach to burr design maybe?!


----------



## dsc

I think wet grinding would solve the issue of static, although create other problems









Curious how flat burrs compare to conicals when it comes to static. I can easily fit a flat burr set in the ZR-71.

Regards,

T.


----------



## Charliej

The thing that is puzzling me, regarding the doserless Mazzers and static is that my Brasilia RR55-OD has a very similar system, the exit chute feeds the stainless steel funnel, although on the Brasilia it is a straight through path from the burrs to the exit, there is then a small thin metal flap over the exit which is screwed through the funnel and into the grinder body. When grinding this flap is think enough that the pressure of the coffee being flung out by the burrs lifts the flap slightly and when the flap is extended to the right a little, the coffee flows in a nice stream down the funnel and into the portafilter with no issues with static or clumping. It just seems very odd to me that if this is the key to OD grinding static free with horizontally mounted flat burrs why other manufacturers don't use this arrangement.


----------



## Xpenno

I don't really have any major static issues on my Royal with 83mm Ti Burrs. I've done nothing to try and prevent it either.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


> The static on the HG One is really variable, and the main driver seems to be atmospherics and location. I had mine in a converted garage next or near to the central heating boiler and had bad problems. They were all but alleviated by the water droplet technique and I just accepted that as part of the sequence of events you had to go through when using an HG One...and probably will have to go through again!


You will David, you will


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Long time since physics 'O' level, but recall ways of dealing with static by earthing. Could this be applied to grind static?


----------



## garydyke1

Xpenno said:


> I don't really have any major static issues on my Royal with 83mm Ti Burrs. I've done nothing to try and prevent it either.


Nor me!

The mini-e was a b1tch for it


----------



## dsc

The Systemic Kid said:


> Long time since physics 'O' level, but recall ways of dealing with static by earthing. Could this be applied to grind static?


Not really, well it can be but doesn't help, it takes too long to discharge via earth connection.

Regards,

T.


----------



## marcuswar

Charliej said:


> The thing that is puzzling me, regarding the doserless Mazzers and static is that my Brasilia RR55-OD has a very similar system, the exit chute feeds the stainless steel funnel, although on the Brasilia it is a straight through path from the burrs to the exit, there is then a small thin metal flap over the exit which is screwed through the funnel and into the grinder body. When grinding this flap is think enough that the pressure of the coffee being flung out by the burrs lifts the flap slightly and when the flap is extended to the right a little, the coffee flows in a nice stream down the funnel and into the portafilter with no issues with static or clumping. It just seems very odd to me that if this is the key to OD grinding static free with horizontally mounted flat burrs why other manufacturers don't use this arrangement.


I'm not sure its that simple Charlie, as you know I have the same grinder but I'm having real trouble with static. Hardly any of the coffee makes it out the bottom of the funnel as it all stick to the sides. I'm sure some of it its down to the beans and some of it down to the humidity but could the make of the burrs also play a part. I'm thinking that maybe its the burrs rubbing the grinds that causes the static charge ? Maybe Titanium burrs don't exhibit this behaviour ?

I have my trusty Gaggia MDF (Doser) sat next to the Brasila (Doserless) and have no trouble with that at all... and that's all plastic.


----------



## dsc

I've seen people grind with various grinders and some getting massive static issues, whilst others grind happily without no static cling at all. As David said above, there's many variables here, coffee and humidity being probably the two with the most impact. I remember my Gaggia MDF which is pretty much all plastic and that used to be mad with static, although on some coffees it would behave normally, with very little cling. Go figure.

Regards,

T.


----------



## marcuswar

That's really weird as I've never had any static problems with my MDF regardless of the beans used.


----------



## Charliej

marcuswar said:


> I'm not sure its that simple Charlie, as you know I have the same grinder but I'm having real trouble with static. Hardly any of the coffee makes it out the bottom of the funnel as it all stick to the sides. I'm sure some of it its down to the beans and some of it down to the humidity but could the make of the burrs also play a part. I'm thinking that maybe its the burrs rubbing the grinds that causes the static charge ? Maybe Titanium burrs don't exhibit this behaviour ?
> 
> I have my trusty Gaggia MDF (Doser) sat next to the Brasila (Doserless) and have no trouble with that at all... and that's all plastic.


The burrs rubbing on the grinds shouldn't really generate static, I just can't fathom why your's generates so much and mine doesn't. I don't have titanium burrs on mine (yet lol). Possibly it's environmental factors, I haven't had static issues with any of the beans I've tried since I got the RR55, but I did have a few static issues with the MC2. My flat isn't particularly humid so I don't what if any environmental factors could be at play, it was a shame we didn't run some beans through your RR%5 while you were over here just to see.


----------



## marcuswar

Charliej said:


> The burrs rubbing on the grinds shouldn't really generate static, I just can't fathom why your's generates so much and mine doesn't. I don't have titanium burrs on mine (yet lol). Possibly it's environmental factors, I haven't had static issues with any of the beans I've tried since I got the RR55, but I did have a few static issues with the MC2. My flat isn't particularly humid so I don't what if any environmental factors could be at play, it was a shame we didn't run some beans through your RR%5 while you were over here just to see.


I'd agree with you and put it down to the humidity if it wasn't for the fact that the same beans grind absolutely fine in the MDF which is sat right next to it !


----------



## dsc

Humidity at which the beans are kept also is a big factor. Static build up is through grinding ie. friction against burrs vs coffee, generating a triboelectric charge. Google HB forums for more info.

Regards,

T.


----------



## Charliej

dsc said:


> Humidity at which the beans are kept also is a big factor. Static build up is through grinding ie. friction against burrs vs coffee, generating a triboelectric charge. Google HB forums for more info.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


That said a well designed and made grinder should be earthing any static as it's produced, recall your school days and any experiments, or demonstrations in recent years involving Van Der Graaf generators and how easy it is to ground static, if you put a ground wire on the hood where the static charge usually collects and you get close to zero static. If anyone wished to try you could repeat the sticking a balloon to the wall with static by rubbing it up and down your sweater, and then see if a bean or beans stick to it, and if you're so inclined try generating static on a bean.

As an example when working with Static Sensitive Devices in the electronics industry the person should be wearing a wrist band that grounds them to the frame of the bench or an earthing point elsewhere and this is pretty much foolproof.

Remember electricity of any sort will always seek the shortest path to earth.


----------



## Dylan

Is it not the particles of coffee themselves (or the surrounding air) that are charged and not the metal around it, the resistance between these and the metal of the grinder would mean any discharge from the grinds would be slow.

My thoughts lie along the lines of charging the metal with a small AC current, or even going so far as to experiment with an ionizer.


----------



## marcuswar

I've also thought of using an ioniser but so far the couple of cheap ones I've tried haven't helped much if at all


----------



## dsc

As I said before, grounding doesn't fix the problem, it helps, but for it to work properly you'd have to leave it grounded for a good few minutes as the discharge rate is so slow, as you can imagine this isn't very practical. Read up on triboelectric charge reduction and how this is done in the industry (ie. high voltage, ionizers etc.).

Regards,

T.


----------



## Xpenno

Did you rice the burrs yet? I did my royal Ti's the other night and I have to say that static is at an all time low, even at tighter grind settings.


----------



## dsc

Not yet, I need to swap back to TiN burrs and grind the 2.5kg pack of rice I've bought over the weekend.

Regards,

T.


----------



## dsc

Some setting changes and how it affects burr distance, settings went from 1500->1499->1498->1100->1498->1499->1500:










Regards,

T.


----------



## Southpaw

I don't know just how accurate that is but I'm guessing its obscenely!

Good job.


----------



## CoffeeJohnny

Missed quite a bit here, wet grinding? What's that? Pre infused dosing?


----------



## dsc

All the above photo shows is the repeatability of the top burr positioning in relation to the bottom burr. The way the ZR-71 works is that you press a button to increase / decrease the distance between the burrs. You don't turn a collar, it's all done automatically via electronics in the machine. The test from the photo shows the burr distance being decreased and then increased back to the same start position, all the digital readout is showing is the true / real distance between the burrs. As you can see going down from 1500 and then coming back to 1500 results in the same burr distance (+/-0.001mm) which is helpful if you are dialing in coffees or simply want to return back to the same position you worked with before.

Regards,

T.


----------



## Fevmeister

can you just post some pics of it please


----------



## dsc

I'll drop a promo shot showing the whole body today









Regards,

T.


----------



## CoffeeJohnny

Cannot wait, I just wish I had the ability to try something like this.


----------



## Fevmeister

yeah cant wait to have a look


----------



## Milanski

dsc said:


> I'll drop a promo shot showing the whole body today
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Ugh, the suspense! It's worse now you telling us you will post a pic....!


----------



## MrShades

This 'teaser' photo is going to be along the lines of this isn't it?










Just show it to us!!!!!!


----------



## dsc

Haha







how did you know?









Regards,

T.


----------



## Xpenno

Looking forward to the big reveal!


----------



## Milanski

I may have to go to sleep at some point dsc...


----------



## dsc

Sorry gents, was busy yesterday mounting the TiN coats on. Photo will hopefully come today









Regards,

T.


----------



## MarkyP

Any news on the photo dsc?


----------



## dsc

Sorry Gents, no photo yet. Spent 2h today setting everything up and just couldn't get the light right (I'm rubbish at large items photography). I might be able to crack it tomorrow, but if not it will have to wait till the end of Feb as I'm off on holiday Mon.

Regards,

T.


----------



## LaCoruna

dsc said:


> Spent 2h today setting everything up and just couldn't get the light right


How about switching on the light ? It is a prototype and not a final product or did I miss something ?


----------



## dsc

LaCoruna said:


> or did I miss something ?


I meant strobe lights for better photography, not overhead lights, I'm not a fan of taking snaps in a dark room.

Regards,

T.


----------



## Dylan

I cant take it anymore.


----------



## Fevmeister

is this a publicity/marketing tool??

to first generate the interest through nondescript close ups, then play with the customer base for weeks to make them lust for and desire just a full picture of your grinder??

if so you're doing a good job!


----------



## Xpenno

D_Evans said:


> I cant take it anymore.


I think it's all vaporware


----------



## dsc

Maybe I should switch to marketing and advertisement rather than stick with engineering









Seriously though, due to various reasons I didn't have time to take proper photos before taking some time off. I'm away from all the kit at the moment, so the earliest I will update this thread with any new info / photos is next week.

Sorry for making promises before, it's not on purpose (well not all of it), although as Fevmeister says, it seems to work well











> I think it's all vaporware


Lol, there is no grinder!









Regards,

T.


----------



## Mrboots2u

I think dsc may be living in a film called grinder club







. The first rule of grinder club is there is no grinder .....


----------



## coffeechap

no its dont speak about grinders !!!


----------



## Daren

And the second rule of grinder club is don't speak about grinders !!!


----------



## Mrboots2u

coffeechap said:


> no its dont speak about grinders !!!


Apparently In every scene in fight club there is a cup of Starbucks......


----------



## Daren

Oy - rule 1 and 2.... Don't talk about...


----------



## Oaky

Hi dsc

Like many others I'm keen to see your new grinder working, would it be possible to organise a demonstration somewhere in the Midlands area? If I could see one working I would be happy to order. How about an 'early bird' discount for forum members?









S


----------



## dsc

Oaky,

as it stands now it still needs further testing with more experienced baristas. Once that's done and legal stuff is out of the way, it can be released into the wild

Regards,

T.


----------



## coffeechap

will be coming your way with l1 in tow next week dude......


----------



## dsc

Hopefully work won't force me to be away at that time







fingers crossed!

Regards,

T.


----------



## dsc

Don't get excited (not that you would), but there might be a chance for a small grinder clash next week. More news and a confirmation to follow.

Regards,

T.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Looking forward to hearing more, Tom.


----------



## Xpenno

Can't wait to hear more about your grinder man. I've been subscribed to this thread for ages and I'm really looking guard to the big reveal when it happens.


----------



## dsc

Cheers Gents, should've said it's basically Dave aka coffeechap swinging by with an L1 and some grinders. All depends if he can get an L1 this week or not...

Regards,

T.


----------



## EricC

Hi Tom,

What grinders is Dave bringing with the L1 to compare the ZR-71 against?

Regards

Eric


----------



## coffeechap

Probably the ek43 and perhaps the versalab


----------



## Dylan

How long have you had the Versalab now CoffeeChap? Are you planning any kind of write up on it?


----------



## dsc

If 'DUDE' brings the Versalab, I'd be willing to do some tests on it as far as assembly precision goes









Regards,

T.


----------



## ronsil

Coffeechap hasn't got the Versalab as yet.

Our meetup this week fell through so we have to arrange another date


----------



## EricC

coffeechap said:


> Probably the ek43 and perhaps the versalab


Excellent, one i already own and one that i am very interested in.

Thank you coffeechap.


----------



## dsc

Update: clash won't happen till next week.

Sorry. Blame Dave









Regards,

T.


----------



## dsc

Another update, Dave might be popping in this coming week, probably Thursday. Hopefully this time plans won't change and there'll be some feedback. If not blame Dave again









Regards,

T.


----------



## Mrboots2u

He's going to have a very busy Thursday ...


----------



## Daren

Mrboots2u said:


> He's going to have a very busy Thursday ...


Yep... I'm hoping to see him Thursday as well


----------



## dsc

Lol, didn't know there's a queue









Regards,

T.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

dsc said:


> Lol, didn't know there's a queue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


Alternative explanation - there's more than one coffeechap!


----------



## Wallm0nkey

Just read though this thread I'm so intrigued to see the finished product have really enjoyed reading it!


----------



## Dylan

I cant share that I'm excited about today because of this thread with anyone in my actual life for fear of being ostracised as too much of a geek.

This post is just to express said excitement.

Woo!


----------



## Mrboots2u

dsc said:


> Another update, Dave might be popping in this coming week, probably Thursday. Hopefully this time plans won't change and there'll be some feedback. If not blame Dave again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


We wil lactually see the grinder after the clash?

Otherwise ill start a rumour you have hypnotised Coffechap into believing it exists ....


----------



## Charliej

Dave is very definitely having a busy day he's already had 2 stops in Lancashire so far today having started in Newcastle, and I've now got my Mythos set up and dialled in for the Londinium Guatamalan and wow what a difference over the RR55, which was good anyway.


----------



## Mrboots2u

4..............................


----------



## dsc

I don't want to make anyone depressed (not that I would







), but nothing will happen today as Dave's schedule is too busy to cover setting up the L1 and playing with the ZR-71. When something definite is confirmed I shall let you know.

Regards,

T.

PS. I blame Dave!


----------



## 4085

Tom, would it not be easier if you went there? Then it kind of puts you more in control!


----------



## dsc

That's the next option, it's just trying to fit it in between work (as usual).

Regards,

T.


----------



## Dylan

dsc said:


> I don't want to make anyone depressed (not that I would
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), but nothing will happen today as Dave's schedule is too busy to cover setting up the L1 and playing with the ZR-71. When something definite is confirmed I shall let you know.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.
> 
> PS. I blame Dave!


*cries*

..___...


----------



## marcuswar

Wow.. I go away for a weeks holiday and by the time I get back you've changed your grinder. Congratulations on getting a Mythos ... did you win the lottery Charlie! Have you still got your RR55, I was still hoping for a side by side static test with mine.


----------



## Charliej

Sorry Marcus not got the RR55 now it went as part of the deal on the Mythos, it all happened rather quickly from a quick phone call to Dave on Tuesday to a Mythos landing at mine this morning, you're still welcome to bring your RR55 over as we know mine worked fine here so that's the next best thing. I did have a quick chat with Dave about RR55s and static and it may be something as silly as being down to the casings, both mine and Drude's were 2009 models in the standard silver paint and with the metal flap fitted as standard, mine had less than 3.3k shots on the counter before it departed for the South West and Drude's had 4.5k or less, both yours and Pompeyexiles are the polished casing that came standard with the plastic flap, DFK41 has also acquired an RR55 in the last day or so so maybe he can chime in as well.

PS even if it's only really for a play on the Mythos you're welcome anytime.


----------



## marcuswar

Charliej said:


> Sorry Marcus not got the RR55 now it went as part of the deal on the Mythos, it all happened rather quickly from a quick phone call to Dave on Tuesday to a Mythos landing at mine this morning, you're still welcome to bring your RR55 over as we know mine worked fine here so that's the next best thing. I did have a quick chat with Dave about RR55s and static and it may be something as silly as being down to the casings, both mine and Drude's were 2009 models in the standard silver paint and with the metal flap fitted as standard, mine had less than 3.3k shots on the counter before it departed for the South West and Drude's had 4.5k or less, both yours and Pompeyexiles are the polished casing that came standard with the plastic flap, DFK41 has also acquired an RR55 in the last day or so so maybe he can chime in as well.
> 
> PS even if it's only really for a play on the Mythos you're welcome anytime.


Wow.. must be all that caffeine that makes deals like this happen so quickly









Shame (for me) that we never got a chance to compare side by side, but I can certainly understand why you jumped at the chance to upgrade to a Mythos so cheaply.

Mine RR55 is younger but has definitely had a harder life as its shot counter reads more like 44K !

Do we know if DFK41's is a chrome or a silver one ?

Thanks for the offer , I may well still bring it round if only to compare shots side by side with the legendary Mythos







I'll drop you a pm in a few weeks to see if we can organise a date.


----------



## jcheung

What a fascinating project.

Good luck with it and I'm looking forward to seeing the final product!


----------



## dsc

Regards,

T.


----------



## Daren

Pack it in you tease


----------



## oracleoftruth

Ah come on! Show us! Show us! show us!


----------



## DavidBondy

P'raps this grinder should be re-classified as the SR-71!

This was the Blackbird spy plane that everyone knew existed but few had ever seen!

David


----------



## dsc

ZR-71 or SR-71, close enough right?









I might be meeting with Patrick or Callum next week, more should be reviled.

Regards,

T.


----------



## DavidBondy

dsc said:


> more should be reviled.


Sorry, I couldn't resist this one. We all have unfortunate typos but I just smiled at this one! Supermarket coffee is reviled. I'm hoping that, in the case of the Blackbird grinder it will be revealed!!!

David (still smiling!)


----------



## Charliej

DavidBondy said:


> P'raps this grinder should be re-classified as the SR-71!
> 
> This was the Blackbird spy plane that everyone knew existed but few had ever seen!
> 
> David


Lets just hope that the ZR71 doesn't piss it's fuel all over the ground like the SR71 does then.


----------



## Neill

Charliej said:


> Lets just hope that the ZR71 doesn't piss it's fuel all over the ground like the SR71 does then.


That's right, when it was cold it's body panels didn't fit right did they?


----------



## dsc

DavidBondy said:


> Sorry, I couldn't resist this one. We all have unfortunate typos but I just smiled at this one! Supermarket coffee is reviled. I'm hoping that, in the case of the Blackbird grinder it will be revealed!!!
> 
> David (still smiling!)


Lol, damn auto correct

No fuel pissing to report yet

Regards,

T.


----------



## frasermade

Neill said:


> That's right, when it was cold it's body panels didn't fit right did they?


I think because it flew so fast the friction from the air cause the body to expand and all gaps were closed. It needed refuelled just after take-off if I remember rightly....but I can't so maybe I'm talking crap!


----------



## Neill

All I know is it was the card you wanted to have in top trumps!


----------



## Drewster

Neill said:


> All I know is it was the card you wanted to have in top trumps!


Only if you could call "max cruising height".... It got hammered out of sight by just about anything on wingspan (although power/thrust was impressive).....

<thinks back> I think it was the Lockheed Galaxy that had the biggest wingspan...</thinks>

The B52 was pretty good on wingspan, cruising height and power (thrust) but always won on number of engines!

Oh yes and on the Top Trumps for cars I seem to remember a clunky old mercedes that was sh*te ate everything except it had a 5 cylinder engine so could beat an awful lot of "decent" cars.....

Jeeez I am getting old....


----------



## Charliej

Neill said:


> That's right, when it was cold it's body panels didn't fit right did they?


Yes thats right and it is because the panels expand when it reaches max speed and height due to air friction, when the Lockheed "Skunkworks" designed them back in the late 60s that was the only way they could make it work, they also if I remember correctly were the top trump to have for top speed as well. They do have to be topped off with fuel just before they take off. I remember seeing one at an airshow on one of the US Air Force bases back in the 1980s, it was some non-public event my Dad took me to in his capacity as head of Rolls Royce Aerospace R&D at the time. It was some sight the way it went from standing there leaking fuel to being in the air and pointing vertically with the afterburners on full and just disappearing upwards.


----------



## Neill

Drewster said:


> Only if you could call "max cruising height".... It got hammered out of sight by just about anything on wingspan (although power/thrust was impressive).....
> 
> <thinks back> I think it was the Lockheed Galaxy that had the biggest wingspan...</thinks>
> 
> The B52 was pretty good on wingspan, cruising height and power (thrust) but always won on number of engines!
> 
> Oh yes and on the Top Trumps for cars I seem to remember a clunky old mercedes that was sh*te ate everything except it had a 5 cylinder engine so could beat an awful lot of "decent" cars.....
> 
> Jeeez I am getting old....


Was the galaxy the one with 8 engines too. I remember hating getting the helicopters. They generally weren't good for much.


----------



## Drewster

I think the Galaxy only had 4....... They were HUGE though....

The Russian Ilyushin (???) was pretty big IIRC.

Don't specifically remember Helicopters... but given my age/senility.....


----------



## DavidBondy

Drewster said:


> I think the Galaxy only had 4.......


No! They had EIGHT but in four pods!

I remember boarding one at Rhine Main on my way to the Gulf and seeing the load deck with six greyhound sized busses. Payload of about 300 tons! Bloody huge!! The wings drooped as it took off!

David


----------



## Drewster

DavidBondy said:


> No! They had EIGHT but in four pods!
> 
> I remember boarding one at Rhine Main on my way to the Gulf and seeing the load deck with six greyhound sized busses. Payload of about 300 tons! Bloody huge!! The wings drooped as it took off!
> 
> David


I know the B52 had 8 engines in 4 pods but every (picture of a) Galaxy I have ever seen has 4 single engines! (2 on each wing).


----------



## Drewster

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lockheed-C-5-A-Galaxy-Military-Planes-Top-Trumps-Card-F-/300856998755 - A galaxy

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Boeing-B-52-Military-Aircraft-Top-Trumps-Card-X-/290910042725 - A B52


----------



## BRYHER

Any update on the manufacture of these Aeroplanes ? ERRRR I mean coffee grinder!

Michael


----------



## Daren

Bryher - I don't think it actually exists. DSC just scours the internet for pictures of random mechanical parts and posts them in an attempt to fool us.

These are the next bits from his grinder -
















​


----------



## Neill

Daren said:


> Bryher - I don't think it actually exists. DSC just scours the internet for pictures of random mechanical parts and posts them in an attempt to fool us.
> 
> These are the next bits from his grinder -
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 6255
> 
> 
> View attachment 6256
> 
> ​


And this diagram demonstrates the flow of coffee


----------



## BRYHER

I wonder how the static will be at the chute velocity like that?


----------



## dsc

I was suppose to go and visit SysKid this weekend, but unfortunately I'm down with a cold and throat infection









As for photos, google image is your friend

Regards,

T.


----------



## BRYHER

Sorry your not so well, get well soon.


----------



## LaCoruna

Just a quick question.Bad light in January, so no fotos, holiday in February - no fotos.March does not count, illness in April... Is this project still alive ?


----------



## Daren

It doesn't exist.... It's the biggest bluff on the forum and he has us all fooled


----------



## LaCoruna

I was just wondering what sense it makes, Titanium coated burrs on a prototype. I would imagine that other things (functionality) is more important than the new "trend" of coated burrs.But I might be wrong.


----------



## dsc

There's a few reasons why you'd want TiN coated burrs on a grinder, there's several HG1 threads on HB with plenty of info on the subject. I wouldn't say it's a trend myself.

I was planning to meet up with Patrick for a few weeks now, but I'm moving house so I've got plenty of other activities on the schedule and we just couldn't agree on a date. I'm swapping a few parts in the next few weeks as well, this means disassembling the grinder partially, doing more testing etc.

Btw there's not going to be a production model anyway, so the prototype I have is probably the one and only ZR-71. Might as well a bluff eh?









Regards,

T.


----------



## Daren

Gis another sneak peak dsc - please


----------



## dsc

Sneak peak?

  










Regards,

T.


----------



## Daren

I meant the whole thing







but thanks anyway


----------



## dsc

I just thought I'd drop something 'for the fans'









I'll be based in Dorking soon, so should be easier to visit Dave and do some testing.

Regards,

T.


----------



## LaCoruna

dsc said:


> There's a few reasons why you'd want TiN coated burrs on a grinder, there's several HG1 threads on HB with plenty of info on the subject.


Rusty burrs because of RDT .If you are not going commercial why is it such a big deal then to show a picture which contains more than just the shaft or the holy tin burrs ?


----------



## dsc

You'd hardly get any rust on burrs with RDT unless you leave them unused for a long time.

Not going commercial now doesn't mean not going commercial ever.

Regards,

T.


----------



## dsc

Looking for someone experienced with an L1 or titan grinder / commercial machine near Surrey, any takers?

Regards,

T.


----------



## coffeechap

Have you moved tom


----------



## dsc

Have indeed, still in Lincoln for two weeks (with the grinder), but then I'm Dorking.

Regards,

T.


----------



## Thecatlinux

Well I am going to ask the question everyone seems to .

Can we have another picture / sneak peak please ? Pretty please with cheery's on top.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Thecatlinux said:


> Well I am going to ask the question everyone seems to .
> 
> Can we have another picture / sneak peak please ? Pretty please with cheery's on top.


No.................


----------



## dsc

Earliest that's possible is probably end of May, as I have too much on the plate at the moment

Regards,

T.


----------



## Thecatlinux

Well if you don't ask ,


----------



## LaCoruna




----------



## Thecatlinux

dsc said:


> Earliest that's possible is probably end of May, as I have too much on the plate at the moment
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


Guess what tomorrow is ?


----------



## Dylan

I've already told myself in my head that this is an elaborate hoax so I can only be pleasantly surprised when this sees the light of day ^_^


----------



## dsc

LaCoruna said:


>


This is brilliant, can't stop laughing

On a more serious note, I've got pretty much all the new of-the-shelf parts, now all that's needed is to finish a few CAD drawings, get the things machined and I'm good to go So yeah...end of June

Regards,

T.


----------



## coffeechap

Just let me know when it is time tom


----------



## dsc

You'll be the first one to know


----------



## dsc

For all the whiny disbelievers



















T.


----------



## marcuswar

Blimey , that is INDUSTRIAL !


----------



## Daren

Naaa - looks like an 80' CD player to me.... Until I see a video showing whole beans going in and ground beans coming out it will still be the mythical ZR-71


----------



## marcuswar

Lol.. even then I wouldn't believe it, it could just be an elaborate hoax like the chess playing Turk.


----------



## dsc

Like the inflatable tanks the Brits used during WWII


----------



## Mrboots2u

Let see it working then........


----------



## dsc

Easier said than done, parts don't tend to assemble themselves you know


----------



## MrShades

Nah, that's not a grinder.... I've seen PCs and AC controls in dodgy hotels that look more like that than a grinder.

Will believe it when I see it (whole, and working).


----------



## Soll

I think this is slowly coming together, a picture here, a little teaser there and then finally BANG!....a grand entrance will be revealed at Raves during the Titan Grinder Jam


----------



## Thecatlinux

Soll said:


> I think this is slowly coming together, a picture here, a little teaser there and then finally BANG!....a grand entrance will be revealed at Raves during the Titan Grinder Jam


Well that would be a good reveal and I am sure the star of the show but it looks like its all still in bits and then there is that the matter of field testing and such.


----------



## dsc

It is still in bits, although shaping up pretty quickly. Here's a runout video:






Regards,

T.


----------



## Mrboots2u

What burr size is this now ?


----------



## Thecatlinux

dsc said:


> It is still in bits, although shaping up pretty quickly. Here's a runout video:


another teaser , but gratefully appreciated , like everyone else I can't wait to see this up and running


----------



## dsc

It's not really meant as a teaser, just showing stuff as I go along. This time it's got selectable speed, so you can have anything between 5 - 250RPM Burr set is 71mm from Mazzer, factory uncoated.

Regards,

T.


----------



## MrShades

Instead of that runout video, you may as well just have posted a photograph and we could stare at it for 30s - it would have looked pretty much the same.... very nicely done!


----------



## dsc

Good idea I shall use it next time


----------



## dsc

Here's more boring movie making:













runout on the end of the shaft.


----------



## dsc

Parts went out to be modified, yet again, hopefully last time. With nothing mechanical to work on I've started doing the electronics / electrics:



 

Still more to go though, it's a never ending job this...

Cheers,

T.


----------



## Tiny tamper

dsc said:


> Parts went out to be modified, yet again, hopefully last time. With nothing mechanical to work on I've started doing the electronics / electrics:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still more to go though, it's a never ending job this...
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> T.


Are all those photos yours? Some dam fine stuff in there either way


----------



## dsc

Yup, all mine thanks!

Regards,

T.


----------



## dsc

Here it is then:










you weren't expecting a photo of the whole thing in good light were you? if so you must be new to this

First quick test was done today, everything runs, had some glitches with the electronics but that's sorted now. I've had to disassemble and reassemble the whole thing yet again, but hopefully it will stay this way for a while (ie. assembled). Runout is 0.01mm, burrs are parallel to 0.03mm, although I might have to double check the burrset, as I think Mazzer isn't as good as people think. Speed is adjustable from pretty much 0RPM to 250RPM, stepped adjustment but each step is 0.01mm vertical movement, so it should be plenty Videos to follow.

Mind you this all took 2 years, loads of effort and sh*t load of money. It was a journey of love and hate, but nothing beats that feeling when you plug it in, hit RUN and the thing hums as it speeds up whilst you just stand there smiling there's loads still to do, but at least it gives me a nice starting point for more testing, tweaking etc.

T.


----------



## Daren

Nope - it's just words and a picture of an old alarm clock. Until I see a video of the whole thing in action I won't believe it exists.

SHOW US!!!


----------



## Thecatlinux

Hi tom

on the display , it says mode and motr , what does this equate to. ?


----------



## coffeechap

Ooo looking forward to the visit tom


----------



## dsc

Patience children

As for the LCD, the mode can be either A(uto) when you run on a timer or M(anual) when you trigger the on/off manually via a button. Motr simply indicates if the motor is E(nabled) or D(isabled).

T.


----------



## Obnic

Best I could do with a phone. I think it's part of a record player or a gate lock.


----------



## Dylan

Obnic said:


> Best I could do with a phone. I think it's part of a record player or a gate lock.


Haha, looks like dsc still has something to learn of the 'dark photo tease', too much detail in those blacks.

Or he knew all along that someone would pull up the levels, and its a mere genius ploy to spread anticipation and desire!


----------



## dsc

I was waiting for someone to do just that didn't want to pull exposure too much as the LCD is blown out then, so left it to the curious ones to act good one Obnic

T.


----------



## Daren

It's a pay and display parking meter - you can't fool us dsc


----------



## dsc

Fair enough, I give up

T.


----------



## BRYHER

You guys kill me with all these "it's a" .. love it.BIG smiles here


----------



## dsc

Finally done:










Front cover plate punched by myself grinder was zeroed and backed out to 160 which is 1.6mm above full burr contact. I'll use it for brewed only for now, but will probably visit coffeechap within a month or so for some lever action.










T.


----------



## Southpaw

I've never seen this but somehow I know this is the coolest grinder about







Well done


----------



## BRYHER

more pictures please

Michael


----------



## dsc

Here's the "remote", got the 3mm punch sets yesterday and went a bit mad:



















T.


----------



## coffeechap

Really looking forward to putting this through its paces, will have something a bit special to try it out on as well


----------



## Neill

coffeechap said:


> Really looking forward to putting this through its paces, will have something a bit special to try it out on as well


Star anise?


----------



## coffeechap

Was thinking machine not ingredients


----------



## Neill

coffeechap said:


> Was thinking machine not ingredients


Ah, ok, crossed wires.


----------



## BRYHER

Neill said:


> Star anise?


Ho Ho , I got it. Read the thread the other day, you guys make me smile, in a good way. Enjoying this thread keep on posting and pictures, appreciated.

Michael


----------



## dsc

New OLED screen with much better viewing angles









T.


----------



## coffeechap

seen this in action, I can confirm it does exist folks and Tom has done an excellent job putting this together, the burrs are getting seasoned then it is more testing. It is super quiet, zero retention and first impressions are very very good indeed.


----------



## DannyMontez

From what we can see it looks great. I really like that all the bolt heads are exposed. Gives it (what I can imagine from the pictures) a bit of an industrial look.


----------



## dsc

coffeechap said:


> the burrs are getting seasoned


Thanks to coffeechap and the helpful lot at Rave the ZR chewed through 6kg of coffee at 90 (roughly espresso), 60 and 40 settings (which is 0.9mm / 0.6mm and 0.4mm away from zero vertically). I've had a thermocouple stuck to the outside of the bigger burr and got to around 50degC after 2mins of constant grinding. Don't want to guess what temps you get in the burr chamber in ordinary grinders with enclosed burrs and constant cafe like running.

Regards,

T.


----------



## dsc

Another super quick update, I've finally found a suitable DTI holder and a small enough DTI to fit into the tight space around the burrset and can report that the parallelism error is max 0.03mm don't think it makes such a massive difference on a conical burrset but people get obsessed with numbers, so there you go.

T.


----------



## funinacup

Does that just detect that the burrs aren't misaligned?


----------



## dsc

You have two easy ways to judge how well the burrs are aligned. One is to check runout or 'wobble' of the shaft, this is effectively the error of not running perfectly concentric and perpendicular to the horizontal surface of the burrs. One way to imagine this is to take a round metal rod, bend it slightly and roll on a flat surface, not only does that cause side/side movement of the burr, but also causes the 'flat' of the burr to move out of horizontal position as it effectively runs at an angle to some extent. Checking parallelism is another test which is worth doing as you can have zero runout on the shaft but the burrs might be fitted at an angle and wont turn perfectly flat. With grinders you have two parts/burrs which need to match and one rotates which makes things quite tricky as pretty much every element of the build affects how the burrs sit against each other.

T.


----------



## dsc

Sorry for the massive watermark on the video, but I can't be asked to re-do the vid and also haven't got any other software which does PIP:






Sick of turning a collar to change the setting on your grinder? just press a button and the top burr moves 0.01mm closer of further away from the bottom burr!







heck it even saves your current position









T.


----------



## Xpenno

I love this! Can't wait to see everything in action, can't be too long now


----------



## hotmetal

+1 on that. I admire your skills and dedication to this project. I think you should paint it green though, ZR71 sounds like it ought to be a Kawasaki works race bike.


----------



## coffeechap

Have seen this mech first hand, it is really good


----------



## Pompeyexile

This is like waiting for the second coming.......will it...won't it...will it....won't it...Hah!


----------



## dsc

Panel indicators on:



















T.


----------



## Thecatlinux

Another teaser , we want a video !

come on share the love!


----------



## dsc

Just because you love teasers:

  

The side panels just got their own side panels

Assuming my mind doesn't kick me into changing anything else, this should be now ready for testing.

T.


----------



## Thecatlinux

That's a really nice touch, the curved corners loving the way the radius of the screw head ties in.


----------



## EricC

Hi Tom,

Good to see it is all finally coming together.

E.


----------



## Xpenno

Very nice, looking forward to hearing how you get on!


----------



## Orangertange

dsc said:


> Just because you love teasers


i bloody hate them, come on show us your wares


----------



## dsc

Never ending upgrade fever, more parts to come after xmas, but for now it works pretty well:

  

If I can locate coffeechap we might be able to give this a test...

T.


----------



## Hoffmonkey

Did you photoshop in some blurr?


----------



## Mrboots2u

Shouldn't there be a portafilter somewhere in that photo


----------



## MrShades

I'm guessing that you've still got some static issues...


----------



## dsc

No blur added, it was shot at F3.5 with a 100m macro, so you dont get much dof.

No PF as I dont grind directly into a basket.

Static? Thats just a bit of chaff, you should see it when its really bad. Its normal to get static when grinding, nothing a drop of water doesnt solve

T.


----------



## dsc

Here's a short clip showing how a 100 SETT change (or 100 notches coarser / finer) affects certain things:






T.


----------



## Pompeyexile

This thread is more teasing than a skimpily clad buxom babe gyrating in a G string wiggling her butt a centimetre from yer face. When are we going to see a full shot of the beauty in full flow?


----------



## MrShades

Be careful what you wish for - I've seen many a cracker in a swimsuit from behind, that turns in to a complete munter when you see the whole picture from the front..... Not that Tom's grinder will be anything but stunning, I'm sure... SHOW IT TO US YOU GIT!

Well, got that off my chest...


----------



## dsc

Patience children!









Seriously though I'm getting more parts machined, should be done later next week, so a test with our grinder chappie is pencilled in

T.


----------



## MrShades

"getting more parts for it".... The build of this thing is like painting the Forth Bridge!

(before anyone says, I know they've now painted it in some new super paint that won't need touching for 25 years or summut - but it's just a figure of speech)


----------



## dsc

I've said before that it's finished unless my brain decides to modify something else on the grinder...and so it happened it's an endless money pit, would've been cheaper to burn £50 notes

T.


----------



## coffeechap

Just let me know when mate


----------



## Thecatlinux

why are we waiting , oh why are we waiting , oh why are we waiting .


----------



## grumpydaddy

How about releasing this as is ..... ZR71.01 ???

Just might help fund the ZR71.02


----------



## dsc

good news is that the additional parts are on the way, bad news is that I need to disassemble half of the grinder to fit them the upgrade offers infinite adjustment, so getting everything parallel / fitted correctly down to 0.01mm will not be a problem anymore and I won't have to rely on parts being super precisely cut (or worry about errors adding up).

So to sum up, I'll be ready for testing next weekend, I might do that video finally and put it up here

T.


----------



## Dylan

dsc said:


> So to sum up, I'll be ready for testing next weekend, I might do that video finally and put it up here
> 
> T.


Uh hu, as it happens next weekend is when I meet the Queen.


----------



## dsc

Damn, guess you'll have to choose wisely...









T.


----------



## dsc

Bad news is that I'm off-sick again







good news is that the assembly is going forward and that the new adjustment means I could get everything clocked and set to achieve parallelism down to 0.005mm







I'm 99% sure now that the least precise element in the whole machine will be the burrs made by Mazzer

T.


----------



## dsc

I'll make a vid soon, just need a small mirror to capture the full rotation of the DTI, but for now this should do it:

  








otherwise Dylan will be moaning in other topics about no progress here;D

T.


----------



## Dylan

Haha, too right I will


----------



## BRYHER

Subscribed, hope you never finish this or the excitement and tension in my life will be gone, forever!!!!!!!!


----------



## BRYHER

I mean I woke to find this, probably won't sleep tonight now bit like christmas eve when I was FIVE.....


----------



## hotmetal

That's quite a nice pic of a dial gauge actually! Guess we'll have to make do with that for a couple more weeks!


----------



## Instant no more !

I wish you every success with this project and like everyone else , Get a shift on , we want to see it


----------



## Dylan

How's things at ZR-71 HQ dsc?


----------



## Daren

Coming up to the 2 year anniversary of this thread.

I vote for DSC to make a big reveal at the forum day! Who's with me?


----------



## gman147

Infinite adjustment? Surely adjustment stops when burrs touch? And stops again when a bean just falls through?


----------



## gman147

Sorry was being pedantic. Lol

Good luck ?


----------



## audio2

I would also be interested in a big reveal.


----------



## dsc

To be honest it's been going a bit slow as I had to get some more parts done, my friend who does them for me was covered with loads of work, so had to put it on the back burner for a few weeks and so I only got them last week. Managed to break something due to one part being out of ali instead of stainless steel and so half of the parts had to go back for repairs only just got info the final part is now finished, so it's ready to be shipped back, but I'm away on Saturday for a week and a half which means more delays. Life getting in the way as usual, shame as it's close to being finished (or so I think). Fingers crossed the recently designed parts work as intended, or otherwise it will be another 'back to the drawing board'.

T.


----------



## TomBurtonArt

dsc said:


> To be honest it's been going a bit slow as I had to get some more parts done, my friend who does them for me was covered with loads of work, so had to put it on the back burner for a few weeks and so I only got them last week. Managed to break something due to one part being out of ali instead of stainless steel and so half of the parts had to go back for repairs only just got info the final part is now finished, so it's ready to be shipped back, but I'm away on Saturday for a week and a half which means more delays. Life getting in the way as usual, shame as it's close to being finished (or so I think). Fingers crossed the recently designed parts work as intended, or otherwise it will be another 'back to the drawing board'.
> 
> T.


So, are we looking at 4-6 weeks before you ship the first batch?


----------



## dsc

Lol more like 4-8 weeks









T.


----------



## Yes Row

You could give Made By Knock a run for its money with this!


----------



## dsc

Damn I should've started taking orders two years ago and now be ready to run away with it all

T.


----------



## Dallah

I'm coming very late to this party. What sort of price will these grinders go for?


----------



## coffeechap

I think the outlay so far for this one is around 2.5 grand


----------



## Mrboots2u

coffeechap said:


> I think the outlay so far for this one is around 2.5 grand


Ill have three then

Ah sod it four ....


----------



## dsc

Are we adding labour to the total price?







that would quickly push the price into 5 digit numbers









2.5k sounds about right for parts.

T.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Mrboots2u said:


> Ill have three then
> 
> Ah sod it four ....


Should get a good discount


----------



## garydyke1

Will there be turkish, coffee and coffee.v2 burr sets?


----------



## dsc

Nope but you can easily communicate grind size / setting and know exactly where you are in relation to zero (0.01mm resolution). Now if only there were two of these to use that 'communicatibility' right?









Oh and the burrs stay parallel (less than 0.01mm error on parallelism) to each other throughout the whole adjustment range (no nasty threads anywhere)









T.


----------



## Thecatlinux

dsc said:


> Nope but you can easily communicate grind size / setting and know exactly where you are in relation to zero (0.01mm resolution). Now if only there were two of these to use that 'communicatibility' right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and the burrs stay parallel (less than 0.01mm error on parallelism) to each other throughout the whole adjustment range (no nasty threads anywhere)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T.


with that level of accuracy, are you grading your beans before grinding them ?


----------



## dsc

Not really, although to be honest I haven't used the grinder a whole lot.

T.


----------



## Jon

I really, really want to see this in its full glory.


----------



## dsc

Quick update, I got the parts and the good news is that it all looks good. It also seems to work well which is a nice surprise considering it all went from design straight to manufacture without any prototyping work.

If the assembly goes well I'll be doing some testing with the Cremina over the weekend

Rgds,

T.


----------



## coffeechap

let me

Know if

You want to try it on some other stuff


----------



## dsc

I'm thinking mid May should be doable for testing on other machines as I'm in Poland 9-10 May.


----------



## Dylan

Ooohhh, exciting


----------



## Beanosaurus

dsc said:


> Quick update, I got the parts and the good news is that it all looks good. It also seems to work well which is a nice surprise considering it all went from design straight to manufacture without any prototyping work.
> 
> If the assembly goes well I'll be doing some testing with the Cremina over the weekend
> 
> Rgds,
> 
> T.


How is the completed ZR-71 stacking up to your original criteria?









- zero retention

- fuss-less grind adjustment, none of the usual manual methods and wrestling with the grinder to turn a massive collar, or lock something in place

- ability to use a hopper approach or single dosing

- weighing system for dosing

- grind-tamp-lock, eliminating the need for WDT or redistribution


----------



## dsc

Good question

1. zero retention - I measured this yesterday and got 0.1g retention, although there's still room for improvement and more testing is required.

2. fuss-less grind adjustment, none of the usual manual methods and wrestling with the grinder to turn a massive collar, or lock something in place - this works beautifully, all you do is press two buttons to change the grind setting

3. ability to use a hopper approach or single dosing - I've picked single dosing as it's intended for home use and it seems that most people single dose anyway. I wasn't keen on single dosing myself, but changed my mind.

4. weighing system for dosing - see point 3. so a weighing system has not been developed

5. grind-tamp-lock, eliminating the need for WDT or redistribution - this is part of the testing I'll be doing over the weekend

T.


----------



## coffeechap

dsc said:


> I'm thinking mid May should be doable for testing on other machines as I'm in Poland 9-10 May.


I will sort out a window


----------



## Thecatlinux

Any more pictures or videos in the offering ? I am sure I am not the only one who would like to see some .


----------



## Dylan

Thecatlinux said:


> Any more pictures or videos in the offering ? I am sure I am not the only one who would like to see some .


Do you really want to be teased by another picture of a screw if very shallow DoF


----------



## Xpenno

coffeechap said:


> I will sort out a window


A window to break-in through and burglerise the grinder whilst he's in Poland?


----------



## Thecatlinux

Dylan said:


> Do you really want to be teased by another picture of a screw if very shallow DoF



View attachment 13706


----------



## dsc

Well here's some fluff to keep everyone happy

  

T.


----------



## Jon

Oh. Disappointing lack of actual grinder again.


----------



## dsc

Regular viewers know that I don't dissappoint with grinder shots, only dreamy shots of dials and fluff Now I do remember some people suggesting this grinder doesn't exist...









T.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

dsc said:


> Well here's some fluff to keep everyone happy
> 
> 
> 
> T.


Now, that's impressive.


----------



## TomBurtonArt

dsc said:


> Well here's some fluff to keep everyone happy
> 
> 
> 
> T.


Nice, my MC2 produces that stuff too.


----------



## coffeechap

dsc said:


> Regular viewers know that I don't dissappoint with grinder shots, only dreamy shots of dials and fluff Now I do remember some people suggesting this grinder doesn't exist...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T.


ooooooooooo how wrong they are


----------



## Mrboots2u

dsc said:


> Regular viewers know that I don't dissappoint with grinder shots, only dreamy shots of dials and fluff Now I do remember some people suggesting this grinder doesn't exist...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T.


Im sure it exists, perhaps only in a parallel dimension, one that you and coffeechap only visit ..through a whole in the time space continuum, that randomly occurs every few months..


----------



## TomBurtonArt

Mrboots2u said:


> Im sure it exists, perhaps only in a parallel dimension, one that you and coffeechap only visit ..through a whole in the time space continuum, that randomly occurs every few months..


----------



## Thecatlinux

Mrboots2u said:


> Im sure it exists, perhaps only in a parallel dimension, one that you and coffeechap only visit ..through a whole in the time space continuum, that randomly occurs every few months..


Maybe the same place where Zane is still in the band , and all is happy with one direction??


----------



## froggystyle

I am waiting for the big reveal, then DFK will pop along and say how he feels its not really worth much and put his first and final offer of £325 on the table and will leave it there...

Thats if it does get a reveal in this lifetime.


----------



## dsc

FYI I've done a week of daily grinding and today I've cleaned the chute - 0.1g found. I guess I'll have to change the name now from ZR (zero retention) to ZPOR (zero point one retention)









T.


----------



## Thecatlinux

I saw ZR71 in the list of recent posts , it had your name next to it , and I thought finally you have posted a picture ,

but alas like old mother Hubbard 'when I got there the post was bare' .

.1 retention that's just what dreams are made of, back to my Kony25


----------



## Jon

I've a plan.


----------



## BRYHER

This ere ZR71, is only slightly rarer than a hand grinder made by Knock!!!!!!!!!!

Keep the pictures coming.


----------



## coffeechap

N



Thecatlinux said:


> .1 retention that's just what dreams are made of, back to my Kony25


No that's a ceado e92


----------



## Jon

I've got exclusive pictures.


----------



## hotmetal

That's not a ZR-71. It's an Amstrad. You're fired!


----------



## TomBurtonArt

I think that is the base control unit.


----------



## dsc

That's what I use to send commands to the grinder

T.


----------



## coffeechap

dsc said:


> That's what I use to send commands to the grinder
> 
> T.


what its not voice activated?


----------



## TomBurtonArt

{

return; kill all humans

}


----------



## BRYHER

This thread makes me smile every time there is a flurry of activity


----------



## dsc

Voice activation is so last year, Amstrad based txt cmnds are the new black.

T.


----------



## coffeechap

black is so last year


----------



## Phil104

Orange is the new black - ask Jeebsy.


----------



## Jon

I thought black and orange were the new silver in jeebsy land.


----------



## Pompeyexile

Forget ZR71 I think this should be re-named the Elephas maximus.

Well they have a 660 day gestation period too....Hah!


----------



## hotmetal

Typical

You wait 660 days for an elephant and then 2 come along. Do they do them in white?


----------



## dsc

Have a photo then:

  










I know it shows only half but still counts right? also the LCD was caught half way through it's refresh scan, can't fight that I'm afraid. The red light is from the apparently 'invisible' on-board strobe which triggers the remote strobes.

T.


----------



## DoubleShot

What grinders look like in the future!


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Endorsed by a rock band too. Nice.


----------



## froggystyle

Yeah i dont like it, can you do it in red?


----------



## TomBurtonArt




----------



## Thecatlinux

dsc said:


> Have a photo then:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know it shows only half but still counts right? also the LCD was caught half way through it's refresh scan, can't fight that I'm afraid. The red light is from the apparently 'invisible' on-board strobe which triggers the remote strobes.
> 
> T.


well I go to the foot of my stairs , that looks great , the diameter of the output shaft looks really 'chunky' hard to get a judge of the size on the whole as there is nothing to compare it too.

the red indicator reminds me off Hal when shown like it is in the second photo


----------



## coffeechap

this really is a well thought out and put together grinder, having seen it first hand in the earlier stages i can say that Tom has put a whole lot of thought into this and I am pretty sure it will be a knockout single doser


----------



## hotmetal

Thecatlinux said:


> the red indicator reminds me off Hal when shown like it is in the second photo


I'm sorry Dave, I'm going to have to open the exit chute Dave...

That looks like a most awesome piece of engineering, I can only imagine the work that's gone into it, and the satisfaction of using it will be awesome.


----------



## aphelion

great job dsc, very nice!


----------



## Phil104

To paraphrase the quote, 'I have seen the future and assume it works'.


----------



## Beanosaurus

"I need your coffee, your barista, and your espresso machine."


----------



## dsc

I told you a photo would eventually come

Lets be honest, its not really a looker, its rather boxy (like a Volvo?) but the focus was more on the functionality than looks

T.


----------



## coffeechap

zr71 boxy but good


----------



## froggystyle

Funny thing is dsc, i had a think about building a grinder a few months ago, my plan (in my head) looked the same as yours, i had plans to strip out a classic and build the motor into the case and then the grinds come down out where the group head is...

Are we going to see it at the rave day?


----------



## jlarkin

Obviously they're completely different beasts but reading through the whole thread in one morning, I have a far greater appreciation of why the ROK hand grinder (or any other engineering type project) could be delayed.

It looks great, very exciting progress. Good work DSC and supporters of the project for sticking with it through the years


----------



## Thecatlinux

dsc said:


> I told you a photo would eventually come
> 
> Lets be honest, its not really a looker, its rather boxy (like a Volvo?) but the focus was more on the functionality than looks
> 
> T.


function over form any day , I have great respect and admiration dude you've stuck with it and got it done and now it's time to reap the rewards of lovely grinds.


----------



## dsc

Thanks Gents, can't believe this thread reached almost 50k views









As for the forum day, I'm afraid I won't be around, so it's a no go. The other issue is that a few new parts are being made and I don't think it's fair to test the grinder without them. It works as is, but it seems that it's never really complete...

T.


----------



## Pompeyexile

Would it be classed as overkill if it was partnered with my Gaggia Classic?


----------



## DoubleShot

Pompeyexile said:


> Would it be classed as overkill if it was partnered with my Gaggia Classic?


Whilst your Gaggic Classic is not working...YES!


----------



## Pompeyexile

Ooh how could you? Talk about hitting a bloke when he's down...........

May your beans be infested with blight and your grinds clump like urine soaked cat litter!


----------



## hotmetal

Wow that is a harsh curse! ?

Dsc I've always thought that true beauty follows function, and something that is purely built to do a job well has an innate beauty of its own.


----------



## Pompeyexile

hotmetal said:


> Dsc I've always thought that true beauty follows function, and something that is purely built to do a job well has an innate beauty of its own.


That's a bit deep for a Bank Holiday Monday. You been on the sauce?


----------



## hotmetal

Is it Monday already?


----------



## dsc

Pompeyexile said:


> Would it be classed as overkill if it was partnered with my Gaggia Classic?


A good grinder is never overkill









T.


----------



## dsc

FYI just got some more parts and ran some quick tests, first grind after a full burr reassembly and cleaning gave 14.8g with a 15g input, second grind was 14.9g with a 15g input. Seems that the burrs themselves grab onto around 0.2g of coffee, although I'm willing to live with this still better than a Mazzer right?









T.


----------



## risky

dsc said:


> still better than a Mazzer right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T.


I put 18.5g of beans into my sj this morning and got 19.1g out. How's that for retention


----------



## The Systemic Kid

New take on the loaves and fishes miracle.


----------



## dsc

risky said:


> I put 18.5g of beans into my sj this morning and got 19.1g out. How's that for retention


Perpetuum mobile!









T.


----------



## Orangertange

dsc said:


> FYI just got some more parts and ran some quick tests, first grind after a full burr reassembly and cleaning gave 14.8g with a 15g input, second grind was 14.9g with a 15g input. Seems that the burrs themselves grab onto around 0.2g of coffee, although I'm willing to live with this still better than a Mazzer right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T.


that sounds great/ about 18gs better than a mazzer conical

thing is would you get better exstration yelds (ie tastier cup) with weight of bean on top?

most grinders can be modded to single dose,

But big conicals need the weight to get the best out of them


----------



## dsc

There's a weight (around 900g I think) which sits on top of the beans when they are being ground. Of course this will never simulate a true bean column, but I think it's close to it. It's got some limitations of course, for example the weight stops being effecting when the last beans are being ground, but I have the ability to do what I want with the grind setting 'on the fly' whilst the grinder is on, so if need be (this hasn't been tested yet) I can tighten the grind in the last phase to make up for the drop in weight-on-top-of-beans (WOTOB factor - all rights reserved







) efficiency.

T.


----------



## aphelion

dsc said:


> There's a weight (around 900g I think) which sits on top of the beans when they are being ground. Of course this will never simulate a true bean column, but I think it's close to it. It's got some limitations of course, for example the weight stops being effecting when the last beans are being ground, but I have the ability to do what I want with the grind setting 'on the fly' whilst the grinder is on, so if need be (this hasn't been tested yet) I can tighten the grind in the last phase to make up for the drop in weight-on-top-of-beans (WOTOB factor - all rights reserved
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) efficiency.
> 
> T.


Sounds really good dsc









So does the weight drop down onto the burrs?


----------



## Orangertange

Cool l

the same as what I do with the kony, but unfortunately, have to leave quite a bit in chamber when I'm done

really think you should go for a kick starter on this one


----------



## hotmetal

Why? Does it have a motorcycle engine? Great torque but petrol in the cup. Coat door gone!


----------



## dsc

aphelion said:


> Sounds really good dsc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So does the weight drop down onto the burrs?


Yup it lifts and moves up / down, so effectively sits on top of the burrs until the very last beans get fed in. Of course the weight can only go as far as the burrset allows, so a few beans will get ground with no weight on top of them. I'd say that's marginal, but haven't actually tested this.

T.


----------



## aphelion

dsc said:


> Yup it lifts and moves up / down, so effectively sits on top of the burrs until the very last beans get fed in. Of course the weight can only go as far as the burrset allows, so a few beans will get ground with no weight on top of them. I'd say that's marginal, but haven't actually tested this.
> 
> T.


Yeah I'd say that's plenty good enough.

Can you vary the motor speed?

Have you found an optimum?

Cheers


----------



## dsc

I can, anything from pretty much 1RPM up to 240RPM. I tend to use around 60RPM, which seems reasonable in terms of grinding speed, but I haven't experimented much with speed to be honest.

T.


----------



## aphelion

dsc said:


> I can, anything from pretty much 1RPM up to 240RPM. I tend to use around 60RPM, which seems reasonable in terms of grinding speed, but I haven't experimented much with speed to be honest.
> 
> T.


Cool, hours of tinkering then!


----------



## dsc

The problem is the whole project took 2 years to finish and I'm now at a stage where I sort of lost interest. I know it might sound strange, but it's a bit like faffing about for hours cooking something and then at the end having no appetite what-so-ever. I think I just need to use it normally for a while and then go back to testing and playing around with various settings.

T.


----------



## aphelion

dsc said:


> The problem is the whole project took 2 years to finish and I'm now at a stage where I sort of lost interest. I know it might sound strange, but it's a bit like faffing about for hours cooking something and then at the end having no appetite what-so-ever. I think I just need to use it normally for a while and then go back to testing and playing around with various settings.
> 
> T.


Definitely been a labour of love by the sounds of it


----------



## jlarkin

dsc said:


> The problem is the whole project took 2 years to finish and I'm now at a stage where I sort of lost interest. I know it might sound strange, but it's a bit like faffing about for hours cooking something and then at the end having no appetite what-so-ever. I think I just need to use it normally for a while and then go back to testing and playing around with various settings.
> 
> T.


I think that's a pretty common fatigue to get with a very long project. The same happens with IT projects and many others. Having only recently read the full thread it sounded like you were aiming for perfection and actually you've got pretty close to it. I don't want to wafflr too much but it's a pretty amazing achievement from what I've read.

I know I'd never have the skills to achieve that on my own, so hats off to you.

Just a final thought, as your grinder works - and seems to do so very well - have you considered trying to take it into the wild? Either the next forum meet or some event, it might help to see how enthusiastic every body else would be about it.


----------



## Phil104

jlarkin said:


> I think that's a pretty common fatigue to get with a very long project. The same happens with IT projects and many others. Having only recently read the full thread it sounded like you were aiming for perfection and actually you've got pretty close to it. I don't want to wafflr too much but it's a pretty amazing achievement from what I've read.
> 
> I know I'd never have the skills to achieve that on my own, so hats off to you.
> 
> Just a final thought, as your grinder works - and seems to do so very well - have you considered trying to take it into the wild? Either the next forum meet or some event, it might help to see how enthusiastic every body else would be about it.


This sounds pretty much spot on if it seems that way to you dsc - more external reinforcement of what you have achieved might boost your motivation for this end of your project...unless the thrill was all in the chase.


----------



## Dylan

I get the exact same feeling with most of the projects I start, get 90% there and then just dilly dally with the last bits. All the fun is in the actual process, finishing something just feels a bit hollow!


----------



## dsc

There is indeed an idea to bring it out to the wild and show it off a bit, I'm trying to meet up with some forum members who have more experience than me in espresso brewing to see how well this actually behaves. This might then push some more mods to make it better, we shall see.

T.


----------



## Promes

dsc said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> things are slowly falling into the right places, so I thought I'd start a thread to give this project a bit of an audience. Haven't really got a name for it, but temporarily I'll call it 'the grinder project'.
> 
> For years I've been annoyed with the fact that the market is filled with grinders that offer not a lot for a lot of monies. Even paying big bucks doesn't give you a product which is perfect, far from it, you get something which was designed for a cafe environment (nothing wrong with that to be honest, but still a problem if you are looking for the ultimate solution), which retains a lot of coffee, doesn't dose properly, forces you to use WDT or other distribution methods and overall simply doesn't represent good value for money. Having successfully converted a used Mazzer Major to a doserless, E-type, grinder I thought the next natural step would be to build a grinder from scratch. I've toyed with a few ideas, spent too much time on the web researching, built an MDF prototype, designed / re-designed / designed / re-designed far too many times and finally got a step where I'm slowly getting parts done to assemble a full scale metal (aluminium) prototype. Here's a short list of things I've had in the back of my head all the time and things which (hopefully) will be incorporated in the design:
> 
> - zero retention
> 
> - fuss-less grind adjustment, none of the usual manual methods and wrestling with the grinder to turn a massive collar, or lock something in place
> 
> - ability to use a hopper approach or single dosing
> 
> - weighing system for dosing
> 
> - grind-tamp-lock, eliminating the need for WDT or redistribution
> 
> 'Looks good on paper' I can hear you say to be honest the above is harder to implement than I thought it would be, but fingers crossed, the final model will tick all those boxes.
> 
> I'd love to share a photo or a drawing, but due to the fact that the grinder uses some new ideas (never used before in the grinder world) that will have to wait. I'm not sure whether I can protect the design in anyway (patenting seems like a possibility, but I haven't talked to anyone in a patent office yet. Oh and it costs monies), so the only way to make sure I don't see it sold by someone else is to limit the amount of sensitive information given away. I can share however that the grinder will not be small and will not be flimsy sorry to all those that hoped for something similar size-wise to a Versalab, but that's not going to happen, I needed quite a lot of space to pack all the magic making stuff inside and so it's 465mm x 190mm x 350mm (H x W x D), weighing at around 25kg, so close to a Robur. Look-wise it's more 'technical' than arty (not really a surprise due to my background), but hopefully not too bad looking.
> 
> The idea is to have this made and ready for the Titan Grind-off event later on in the year. Of course there's plenty of assembling, testing etc. to be done before, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
> 
> Any questions, let me know, I might be able to answer them at this stage
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


I am sure many more on here will share my enthusiasm for this project.


----------



## dsc

Angle was a bit weird, so focus is a bit shallow, but I couldn't be asked to re-do it [No idea how to force youtube to play automatically in 1080p, all the solutions with &hd=### at the end dont't seem to work]

T.


----------



## Thecatlinux

Great start to the day


----------



## aphelion

Nice


----------



## Taff

I for one would love to try it for a short while!


----------



## coffeechap

Ha ha join the queue


----------



## dsc

Form an orderly queue gentlemen if it was a hand grinder a route around the UK would be possible, but not with this I'm afraid.

T.


----------



## Soll

I nominate myself as last on the list, this way I'm quite sure the burrs will be fully seasoned


----------



## jlarkin

dsc said:


> Form an orderly queue gentlemen if it was a hand grinder a route around the UK would be possible, but not with this I'm afraid.
> 
> T.


So we'll all have to clear a few days, sequentially, to spend with you? ;-P


----------



## dsc

Here's a collaboration between the Cremina and the ZR-71, if anyone has any ideas as to why that bubble shows up in the middle I'm all ears






This was 15g, very lightly tamped (just enough to level the grinds), with 7-8s preinfusion. SQM Decaf roasted Thu last week so fairly fresh.

T.


----------



## Thecatlinux

Air in the water ? A little burb from the machine .

can you repeat it ?


----------



## dsc

It happens on every extraction:O

T.


----------



## jlarkin

I think you've flummoxed everybody... Have you tried changing things just out of interest? Maybe give it a knock before tamping etc. Obviously depending on what your prep is.


----------



## funinacup

Water too hot?


----------



## MWJB

Air in the group, how fast are you raising the lever?


----------



## dsc

Happens on too cold and too hot shots, lever goes up really slowly. Seems to be normal on Creminas if you check this:

http://www.home-barista.com/levers/olympia-cremina-air-bubble-in-every-extraction-t36509.html#p414294

T.


----------



## dr.chris

Well the bubble cant come from outside of the PF or machine

I just don't buy that there is an air pocket inside the PF that gets flushed out part way through. You can definitely get preferential flow in the grounds but the forces are going to be too big to prevent water spreading out through the puck and pushing the air out. Also what suddenly changes part way through to then push the air out. And (depending on how the pressure comes through) I think preferential pathing is likely to get worse over the course of the extraction not better

You do have a huge pressure difference between the inside the piping and PF and the outside where you see the bubble. It may be due to CO2 and possibly air in solution coming out of solution. Maybe something in the design of the mesh in the PF causes the CO2 to start coming out of solution earlier than it might in other systems and/ or behind a nice hole (shape and size) for forming bubbles just like a kid's soap bubble toy.

You might have a bubble in the pipework that takes a while to be pushed through to the PF. I have no idea what the pipework inside a Cremina looks like.

Anyway - things to think about


----------



## dsc

I don't really think it's air trapped in the coffee puck as it would simply form a bubble, pop and be done, here it looks like there's air / gas introduced constantly, which is why it forms a bubble which stays there.

Keep in mind that Cremina's don't have vacuum breakers and you can easily achieve false pressure in the boiler if you don't drain through the steam wand.

T.


----------



## dsc

Well I'm happy to say the ZR has now got a full blown burr distance measuring system!

For all those crazy people out there who just need to know that the cup they're currently sipping was made from coffee ground through burrs which were 1.27mm apart

T.


----------



## DoubleShot

@dsc

Oh, you big tease!


----------



## dsc

I would like to show more but the expansion PCB isn't ready due to some parts being stuck somewhere in Switzerland (I assumed their post would be quicker for some reason).

I should have an L1 with me this week, should be fun!









T.


----------



## Thecatlinux

Hopefully as well coffee shots with the L1 , you will get some camera shots .


----------



## MrShades

When are you upgrading it to 120mm burrs ;-)


----------



## dsc

I'd love for someone to develop a better conical burrset in all honesty.

T.


----------



## MrShades

Is there anything bigger/better than the 71mm Robur set anyway? 68mm Compak is virtually the same... Can't think of anything else - and that's your problem with conicals.

Whereas the flat burrs go to at least 180mm and probably beyond (and OK, I appreciate that it won't easily work with the design of your machine, due to the open/vertical grind exit path) - but your skills/internals/fancy stuff combined with EK burrs (or bigger) has surely got to be the stuff of dreams...

What if you started by just turning your entire machine through 90 degrees and tried slapping some EK burrs in there. ;-)

I'll get my coat...


----------



## Dylan

Come on dsc, you have come this far, you may as well machine your own burrs to boot.


----------



## dsc

Flats would require a rather radical re-design which I'm not planning unless someone with loads of spare cash comes around and pays me







flats with a horizontal fees would require high rpms, way above the max 300RPM I can do at the moment.

There seems to be a single way of cutting conicals and noone experimenting with them. And believe me you need some fancy machinery to get a burr set made, not mentioning the money needed for all the prototyping and actually knowing what you are doing.

T.


----------



## Dylan

dsc said:


> Flats would require a rather radical re-design which I'm not planning unless someone with loads of spare cash comes around and pays me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flats with a horizontal fees would require high rpms, way above the max 300RPM I can do at the moment.
> 
> There seems to be a single way of cutting conicals and noone experimenting with them. And believe me you need some fancy machinery to get a burr set made, not mentioning the money needed for all the prototyping and actually knowing what you are doing.
> 
> T.


Soooo.....


----------



## dsc

Sooo...I'm waiting for that special someone with a wallet full of cash

T.


----------



## dsc

Here's probably the last upgrade to the grinder, distance measurement for the burrs:

  

I've got an L1 now, so can play around a bit more.

Rgds,

T.


----------



## risky

Looks great. I've probably missed this from way back in the thread, but what's the minimum adjustment?


----------



## Beanosaurus

dsc said:


> Flats would require a rather radical re-design which I'm not planning unless someone with loads of spare cash comes around and pays me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flats with a horizontal fees would require high rpms, way above the max 300RPM I can do at the moment.
> 
> There seems to be a single way of cutting conicals and noone experimenting with them. And believe me you need some fancy machinery to get a burr set made, not mentioning the money needed for all the prototyping and actually knowing what you are doing.
> 
> T.


I've looked around online for videos of how both flat and conical burrs are made, and can't find squat!


----------



## dsc

risky said:


> Looks great. I've probably missed this from way back in the thread, but what's the minimum adjustment?


0.01mm or slightly less than that which is why I decided to go with direct read-out rather than assuming one 'click' is 0.01mm. It's never spot on 0.01mm so after a while you might find that errors accumulate.

As for burrs being made, its similar to tool making (ie. drill bits, milling bits etc), which is done on precision grinders. Youtube will return quite a lot of vids showing how those are made.

T.


----------



## MWJB

Beanosaurus said:


> I've looked around online for videos of how both flat and conical burrs are made, and can't find squat!


Here's a factory tour of Mahlkonig, so it only covers some flat burrs.


----------



## Beanosaurus

dsc said:


> As for burrs being made, its similar to tool making (ie. drill bits, milling bits etc), which is done on precision grinders. Youtube will return quite a lot of vids showing how those are made.
> 
> T.


I clearly haven't looked far enough... Actually recall Googling it without avail. DOHHHHH


----------



## Dylan

How's the never-ending grinder project going of late dsc?


----------



## dsc

I'm waiting for a new burrset from Jenns which should be already seasoned, I had loads of 'fun' seasoning the Mazzer one I have now and its still not perfect.

I also need to modify the chute a bit to allow for better mixing of the grinds, but I can work around this for now.

T.


----------



## Dylan

I know you had a date with CoffeeChap, are you putting this off until its perfect?


----------



## dsc

I still have him penciled in







it was a bit hard to get together as we are both pretty busy, but there's a plan for some testing when the new burrs arrive (next week probably). Wanted to get Gary involved and have a grinder jam at the Rave maybe?

T.


----------



## Dylan

dsc said:


> I still have him penciled in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it was a bit hard to get together as we are both pretty busy, but there's a plan for some testing when the new burrs arrive (next week probably). Wanted to get Gary involved and have a grinder jam at the Rave maybe?
> 
> T.


A big unveil at the (potential) Grinder Jam?! Might actually tempt me over there!

Edit: actually just looked up how far Rave is... far.


----------



## dsc

I meant more like a grinder jammie rather the Grinder Jam









T.


----------



## dsc

FYI I've decided to do a full reveal in Jan 2016, this is never going to end as a product and I don't think it ever would so no real point in keeping it secret (I can hear all the "well about f***ing time"







). I'll throw some videos showing how it operates and how it looks although most of it has been shown already. Also up for more testing if anyone is in the area.

Probably going to try a conversion to flats (as mentioned in another thread) early in the year as well.

T.


----------



## MrShades

Don't forget to tilt them at 45 degrees ;-)


----------



## dsc

Apparently you don't need to above 400RPM









T.


----------



## GlennV

Unless someone's actually got one and measured it I'm inclined to think that might be a myth.

http://www.nuovadistribution.com/Grinders/Mythos.html

states 1000rpm for the low speed version (that would be at 60Hz, so about 800rpm here)


----------



## Daren

Well about f***ing time


----------



## MrShades

dsc said:


> Apparently you don't need to above 400RPM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T.


Well, my comment was a little tongue-in-cheek - but in all seriousness, I guess it just depends on the design of your burr carriers and exit - and I'm guessing that you'll have some fancy vertical exit path in mind anyway, so it'll be all down to centifugal and gravitational forces.


----------



## Dylan

I'll believe it when I see it


----------



## dsc

It was Matt Perger who stated the 400RPM, no idea how well its going to work to be honest. I'm guessing lower speeds would be doable as long as you had enough push behind the beans ie had a hopper?

T.


----------



## MrShades

Ah - you see, you're thinking along conventional lines again.... that's not how Dyson made his millions is it?

Coincidentally, why worry about having an element of "push" behind the beans when you could have a controllable degree of "suck" in front of them (and the ground coffee).

"Yeah, it might LOOK like parts off a handheld vacuum cleaner - but I prefer to call it the Ground Coffee Vortex Collection Chamber"

Make it so...


----------



## coffeechap

GlennV said:


> Unless someone's actually got one and measured it I'm inclined to think that might be a myth.
> 
> http://www.nuovadistribution.com/Grinders/Mythos.html
> 
> states 1000rpm for the low speed version (that would be at 60Hz, so about 800rpm here)


slow spin mythos barista is 400 rpm

https://www.espressoparts.com/mythos-barista-low-rpm-thermally-stabilized-grinder-ships-in-5-7-business-days


----------



## dsc

Push would be much easier than suck, yes you can probably have suck, heck you can probably have whatever else you want, but you'd either need stacks of dollars or much more equipment added (or both). I'd say pretty much anything is possible if you throw enough engineers and money at it









400RPM is doable in my case, although halves the torque abilities, still plenty of spec left I hope, I might have to start the motor first and then dump the beans but its not a massive issue as I only plan to single dose. I don't even need a lot of extra parts, just two burr holders and I'm ready to test as everything is concentric and parallel down to 0.01mm.

T.


----------



## GlennV

coffeechap said:


> slow spin mythos barista is 400 rpm
> 
> https://www.espressoparts.com/mythos-barista-low-rpm-thermally-stabilized-grinder-ships-in-5-7-business-days


espressoparts also say (same link) that it has 83mm burrs.

So, are there really 3 versions, the 1400ish rpm 75mm plus/basic, the slowish 800ish rpm 75mm one/clima pro and the really slow 400rpm 83mm barista? Has anyone actually seen one of these 83mm ones and measured its rotation speed? By way of background 1400rpm would be a 4 pole motor and 800-900 a 6 pole. To get down to 400rpm requires a single phase 12 pole induction motor, which is a rare beast, or a gearbox, which is what most of the conicals use but would increase the height of the motor stack (or a DC motor and lots of electronics, like the ZR71, I presume, and the EG-1). I'm genuinely interested in this, and tempted to pick up one of these to see what the fuss is all about, but put off by the lack of information from nuova simonelli themselves.

Sorry to derail your thread T, I thought it was the mythos you were referring to!


----------



## dsc

No worries, happy to discuss. Mythos might be using the same motor on all just with a different gear ratio. Whats the power rating on the three different models?

I need to fit a different gearbox as the one I've got now can only do a max of 250RPM.

T.

Edit: also interesting to see the biggest flats on the slowest model.


----------



## risky

Is this not the whole Major/Royal situation again?


----------



## coffeechap

risky said:


> Is this not the whole Major/Royal situation again?


not so much as the royal and major are completely different beasts


----------



## GlennV

risky said:


> Is this not the whole Major/Royal situation again?


No, not really - it's pretty clear what's going on there. The Major (together with the SJ, the eureka MDL and many others) uses a 4 pole motor. Synchronous speed is 1500 rpm, actual speed a bit lower. The Royal (together with the Anfim SC and a few others) uses a 6 pole motor. Synchronous speed is 1000 rpm, actual speed a bit lower. The Anfim is claimed to be be 800rpm, but actually spins a bit faster (I measured it at 920rpm). The vast majority of flat burred grinders run at one of these two speeds. Conicals typically use a gearbox. The MC uses a 4 pole motor with a 10:3 epicyclic gearbox to run at 420rpm.


----------



## dsc

Seems like a lot more torque is needed for conics than flats, probably because conics get fed via gravity and flats rely mostly on centrifugal force.

Would be good to know the power ratings on the Mazzers, Anfim and MC, based on those one can calculate torque ratings.

T.


----------



## dan1502

Anfim states 0.6 hp if that's what you mean


----------



## dsc

Well that gives 5.34Nm assuming the speed is 800RPM or if its indeed closer to 900RPM the torque rating drops to below 5Nm. I can easily match and exceed those even at 500RPM, so its looking promising...

T.


----------



## GlennV

No rating plate on either the MC or the anfim I'm afraid - 0.6hp sounds reasonable though. Bear in mind that max torque for an induction machine is probably 2 or 3 times its torque at rated power though.


----------



## dsc

Are we saying max torque ie. stall torque ie. momentary max torque as opposed to max continuous running torque?

T.


----------



## GlennV

dsc said:


> Are we saying max torque ie. stall torque ie. momentary max torque as opposed to max continuous running torque?
> 
> T.


Yes. I mean the torque at the point at which torque starts decreasing with slip (ie synchronous speed - actual speed). It's called breakdown torque, and is a stability condition, depending only on the geometry of the motor (number of turns etc). The rated power is based on max current. There is no theoretical relationship between the two, but in a well designed induction motor breakdown torque is typically around twice the torque at rated power. If you took the motor from a robur, for example, and replaced all the wire a with smaller gauge then you could reduce the rated power (and hence torque at rated power) without affecting the peak torque.

DC motors are entirely different of course!


----------



## dsc

Based on this are we saying the values stated for the Anfim would be doubled for breakdown torque and thus could potentially be matched with stall torque on a dc motor? Stall torque is normally around 2-2.5 rated torque on dc motors.

T.


----------



## dsc

Anyone knows what the difference is between the Nuova Mythos 83mm burrs, the Compak E8 83mm burrs and the Mazzer Major 83mm burrs? I'm going for an 83mm burrset, but not sure which one to pick.

T.


----------



## risky

dsc said:


> Anyone knows what the difference is between the Nuova Mythos 83mm burrs, the Compak E8 83mm burrs and the Mazzer Major 83mm burrs? I'm going for an 83mm burrset, but not sure which one to pick.
> 
> T.


There are 3 different versions of Mazzer burrs for the Major/Royal aren't there?


----------



## coffeechap

Don't think the mythos is 83mm burrs, but out of those I would opt for the compak red speed burrs, contact lee or Callum of foundry


----------



## dsc

The NS Barista (slow version) is 83mm me thinks. With the red burrs I'm a bit worried about break-in, are they seasoned before the treatment is applied?

T.


----------



## coffeechap

Pretty sure they don't need seasoning, however pretty sure Callum will run a load of coffee through them if you need them seasoned, pretty sure that eureka don't do the mythos burrs in anything but 75mm the commonly placed details from the Internet on the slow spin is incorrect imo


----------



## DoubleShot

Eureka Mythos (classic) and nuova Simonelli Mythos One ClimaPro both have 75mm burrs (although they are ever so slightly different in some way, I believe?)

Mythos One

Mythos


----------



## dsc

@risky don't think there's three, Royal is 70 smth and Major is 83mm

@coffeechap right then, @Callum !!! Come join the thread!

T.


----------



## coffeechap

dsc said:


> @risky don't think there's three, Royal is 70 smth and Major is 83mm
> 
> @coffeechap right then, @Callum !!! Come join the thread!
> 
> T.


There are three types Tom, the major, the royal single phase and the royal three phase burrs, if your grinder has the power it could handle the three phase option.


----------



## dsc

Here's the info I was looking at:

https://www.espressoparts.com/mythos-barista-low-rpm-thermally-stabilized-grinder-ships-in-5-7-business-days

The above says 83mm...

T.


----------



## coffeechap

dsc said:


> @risky don't think there's three, Royal is 70 smth and Major is 83mm
> 
> @coffeechap right then, @Callum !!! Come join the thread!
> 
> T.


 @CallumT


----------



## coffeechap

dsc said:


> Here's the info I was looking at:
> 
> https://www.espressoparts.com/mythos-barista-low-rpm-thermally-stabilized-grinder-ships-in-5-7-business-days
> 
> The above says 83mm...
> 
> T.


Yeo that is the usual place that people quote from


----------



## dsc

Hmm NS own website says 75mm:

http://www.nuovasimonelli.it/en/prodotti/macinacaffe/mythos/mythos-barista.html

I don't want to push the motor / gearbox too far, so perhaps 75mm is the way to go for now.

T.


----------



## risky

coffeechap said:


> There are three types Tom, the major, the royal single phase and the royal three phase burrs, if your grinder has the power it could handle the three phase option.


And for clarity @dsc they are all 83mm. Royal is the bigger brother of the major, it wouldn't use smaller burrs, it just spins slower.


----------



## dsc

risky said:


> And for clarity @dsc they are all 83mm. Royal is the bigger brother of the major, it wouldn't use smaller burrs, it just spins slower.


I'll just shut my mouth next time when Mazzer burrs are mentioned!







thanks for the additional info risky.

T.


----------



## CallumT

Three Phase Royal Burrs are beastly. 18g in a couple of seconds.


----------



## risky

Guessing they have an incredibly aggressive profile.

Would be curious to see a comparison of particle distribution between this and the 'gentler' burrs.


----------



## dsc

@CallumT do you know how many kg does it take to season Compak's steel and red burrs?


----------



## GlennV

Why not try 80mm burrs? Either the compak R80 ones that appear to be being used on the EG1 or the 804 derived ones on the Peak?


----------



## dsc

Whats special about those? Peak is Mahl so will cost an arm and a leg.

T.


----------



## GlennV

Well, they're burrs designed for brewed, and the latest in thing. The 804 burrs do indeed cost an arm and a leg, but a lot of people replaced the old cast ones with fully machined ones, so there must be a lot about somewhere.

Maybe don't give up on the conicals just yet though - I've had a bit of a breakthrough today with my "ghetto grinder" (as christened by coffeechap) as I've just reported on the "best buy grinder" thread. A minimal amount of sweeping the grinds together on the way to the PF seems to be enough.


----------



## dsc

Not that keen on brewed so it doesn't really matter, already pulled the trigger on a set of standard steel ones from a Compak E8, this is mostly for testing anyway, I still need to design burr mounts etc. so won't have it running till Feb 2016 earliest.

I've got an idea for mixing grinds automatically, but static is still a bitch and makes everyone's life miserable. Might try a stacked burr approach like the Versalab, first need to cut a conic burrset in half and use that as a pre-crusher. Anyone knows what the Versalab speed is? curious how that compares to the 400RPM quoted as the minimum flat burr speed to get self feed.

T.


----------



## Dylan

Surprised you haven't bolted an ionic static discharge gun ( not sure what it's actually called) to this mega grinder dsc


----------



## coffeechap

I might have exactly what you need for the stacked idea


----------



## EricC

dsc said:


> Anyone knows what the Versalab speed is? curious how that compares to the 400RPM quoted as the minimum flat burr speed to get self feed.
> 
> T.


Tom,

This is from an Abe Carmeli post on HB in the Versalab M3 Grinder - Page 12 thread ..........

Adjusting Burr Speed on the Versalab M3 Grinder

Here is an interesting variable I've never been able to play with: Adjusting burr speed. I believe the M3 has a stock burr speed of 500 rpm. However this can be adjusted downward (to a slower speed) by adjusting a little screw on a circuit board inside the grinder. To access it, you need to disassemble the grinder's back panel (4 screws). Inside, you will find a blue chip on the circuit board. That blue thingy has a small brass screw on top of it. Turning the screw counterclockwise, reduces burr speed. I turned it 2 turns and noticed a visible change in burr speed. It is hard to tell what the speed is, but it is definitely slower. John Bicht believes that slower speed has a positive influence on the cup and is detectable. My guesstimate is that I reduced it to around 350-400 RPM with those two turns. I will spend a couple of weeks on it and see if indeed there is a detectable difference.










The little brass screw on top of the blue thingy on the bottom circuit board adjusts burr speed.


----------



## dsc

Dylan said:


> Surprised you haven't bolted an ionic static discharge gun ( not sure what it's actually called) to this mega grinder dsc


I've tried a few devices like this, no effect what so ever. Big industrial ionic curtains might work, but those require ion generators which are probably bigger than the grinder itself









T.


----------



## dsc

coffeechap said:


> I might have exactly what you need for the stacked idea


I can stack up conics + flats like a Versalab or conics on conics which don't think has been done before. From initial testing it should work and gives higher EYs, although that might not be beneficial taste-wise. This would of course require more parts, monies and testing...

T.


----------



## Dylan

dsc said:


> I've tried a few devices like this, no effect what so ever. Big industrial ionic curtains might work, but those require ion generators which are probably bigger than the grinder itself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T.


Ahh I see, nice to hear you tried tho! Have you looked into all the various anti-static coatings and such things? I remember having a look a while back but not finding anything that looked remotely food safe.


----------



## grumpydaddy

I will just make a small observation here....

When I put new Ditting burrs on the Santos I could place a cup below the outlet and watch a large percentage of the grind flying sideways and upwards away from the cup.

I put about 5Kg of beans through and really thought I would have to re-think using this as a grinder for single dosing.

Almost as a last resort I put 5Kg of rice through these burrs and voilà, no static worth a damn ever since, no matter what type of bean I use.

Take this info and consider what could have happened..... I have no clue...... I just tell you this and let you decide if it is of use to you


----------



## dsc

Well the Mazzer conics I've been using were doing fairly well static wise, I've put a non-Mazzer set in recently and it's rather terrible. The set is apparently seasoned and coated, but I'm not 100% on this so I might have to try re-seasoning them just for laughs or go back to the Mazzer set.

T.


----------



## dsc

I know you all missed these, so here's another pitch black photo showing f*ck all









  

I guess everyone already realised I've started this thread mostly to take / post photos and not to show the grinder as that clearly doesn't exist ;D

T.


----------



## Dylan

Zr-71 is DoP to become a by word for mythical things in the coffee world.


----------



## dsc

- "Have you seen that new brewer which hits never-seen-before high levels of extraction?"

- "Yeah, but I've heard it's a ZR, so no point in keeping hopes up"










T.


----------



## Rhys

Probably why the ZX-81 was used as a doorstop... It was real!


----------



## EricC

OMG, your visits with the ZR-71 to my house must have all been a dream.


----------



## dsc

There's legends of people seeing it in real life









T.


----------



## dsc

Don't want to brag but I'm getting the final machined parts delivered tomorrow, so... expect more "in the dark" photos soon









T.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

dsc said:


> Don't want to brag but I'm getting the final machined parts delivered tomorrow, so... expect more "in the dark" photos soon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T.


How do I order one? Forget the Sette, this is the bee's knees! 

Looking forward to more photos.


----------



## dsc

I don't want to brag but after only 3 years and 8 months since starting this thread the beast is up and running again









Word of advice for anyone thinking this grinder business is easy - prep your wallet and your wife









T.


----------



## EricC

Congratulations Tom.


----------



## johnealey

Congrats and does that mean we can a new set of dark photos









John


----------



## dsc

Expect a set of uber dark photos to follow soon









T.


----------



## Dylan

dsc said:


> I don't want to brag but after only 3 years and 8 months since starting this thread the beast is up and running again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Word of advice for anyone thinking this grinder business is easy - prep your wallet and your wife
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T.


Stop playing with our emotions man.


----------



## Daren

Still don't believe you


----------



## dsc

Daren said:


> Still don't believe you


That's the spirit!  I've been here before you know...

T.


----------



## Daren




----------



## dsc

Dylan said:


> Stop playing with our emotions man.


As Daren proved above no one believes me anyway 

T.


----------



## Rhys

dsc said:


> I know you all missed these, so here's another pitch black photo showing f*ck all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess everyone already realised I've started this thread mostly to take / post photos and not to show the grinder as that clearly doesn't exist ;D
> 
> T.


I think you've just strapped a calculator to a Sage


----------



## dsc

Rhys said:


> I think you've just strapped a calculator to a Sage


Damn I've been exposed!


----------



## Phil104

Surely there is going to be a proper launch ceremony with a live stream - somewhere like the fourth plinth in Trafalgar Square where so many, many forum members can gather round?


----------



## dsc

I don't want to make Dylan cry so here's a photo, nothing says quality and precision like paper bean hop stoppers

Got a call scheduled for Monday with BBC, they can't wait to do a live feed from my house

T.


----------



## Daren

I'm sure I saw them make this on Blue Peter out of a toilet roll tube, a breakfast box and some double sided sticky tape. Remember to ask an adult to help with the cutting


----------



## Dylan

dsc said:


> I don't want to make Dylan cry


Too late


----------



## DoubleShot

Have the BBC been round to film a documentary on your prototype yet?


----------



## dsc

They said something about being busy filming the knew Great British Bakeoff, but apparently once they're done with it, they'll be right over









T.


----------



## DoubleShot

Watch this space!


----------



## dsc

Exactly, any day now...









T.


----------



## dsc

Here's to all the disbelievers (sounds a bit like beliebers ):










In your face!

T.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

dsc said:


> Here's to all the disbelievers (sounds a bit like beliebers ):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In your face!
> 
> T.


When will mass production start? ;-)


----------



## The Systemic Kid

You tease


----------



## dsc

pessutojr said:


> When will mass production start? ;-)


Waiting for @Dylan to pull his finger out (joking of course, no rush







) and print me some plastic bits









T.


----------



## Daren

Looks just like an L1 to me?


----------



## Dylan

dsc said:


> Waiting for @Dylan to pull his finger out (joking of course, no rush
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) and print me some plastic bits
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T.


Aye yea, I am printing dsc an entire manufacturing facility


----------



## Jon

dsc said:


> Here's to all the disbelievers (sounds a bit like beliebers ):


Mine eyes doth play tricks on me!?!

This can't be true.


----------



## Milanski

Kaboom! There it is! The mythical creature lives! Partners with the L1 rather nicely


----------



## dsc

Upgrade from the cardboard bean chute, quality 3d printed stuff from @Dylan 










Going for the black on black look here aka "how to make this even harder to photograph" 

T.


----------



## hotmetal

Oh my goodness! I have been following this for what, 3, 3.5 years now, (was already underway about the time I joined) and after so many teaser shots, I manage to miss the big reveal for a whole month! Well done dsc!


----------



## dsc

I'll try and do a video over the weekend which shows how the machine works.

T.


----------



## dsc

Shit quality, but it has to do for now as I barely had time to shot this:






Btw here what the chute looks like as you can't really see much on the video:










T.


----------



## DoubleShot

0.1g retention. Very nice.


----------



## dsc

Only just managed to re-align things a bit more yesterday, went from a rather crap 0.05mm runout to 0.01mm which is a massive achievement considering how long the shaft is and how finicky the entire assembly process can be. Wasn't expecting much in terms of better espresso and only have a super old bag of Italian Job from Rave on the counter (roasted at the end of Jan 2017, so it's all 4 months old), but here's what Mojo threw out at me when I popped in the data:









Mind you this pulled normally with no major hickups or stalling, some side channelling though, so I reckon if I paid more attention to prep it might've been even higher TDS.

Anyone knows if robusta blends tend to kick out TDS much?

T.


----------



## dsc

Try this attachment, the other got resized to a silly small size.










T.


----------



## Thecatlinux

What did it taste like .?


----------



## dsc

Pretty good actually, considering the age of the beans and how intense the shot was.

T.


----------



## dsc

Here's a short clip showing runout measured on the very end of the shaft, I'm personally glad to see no major change in the readings during the grinding process







then again it is measured straight under the bottom shaft support, so if it was moving about more that would've been a disaster














T.


----------



## dsc

I've been messing around with grinding speeds a bit more recently and it's having a rather huge effect on the grind settings. I'm using some fairly lightly roasted and uber hard beans from Gardelli and at 100RPM I was grinding them with a 0.75mm gap between the burrs. I've now bumped the speed to 250RPM (maximum the ZR can do without changing the gearbox ratio) and I'm down to 0.55mm gap :0 no idea if I'm just breaking the burrs in more with the hard beans and simply having to compensate, but it's a huge drop. Taste wise it's getting better with the drop in burr gap so I'm not complaining









T.


----------



## dsc

Just wanted to give a huge shout out to Gareth from SQM who was kind enough to spend some time with me today pulling a few shots on their great looking VA Black Eagle and talking grinders. If you ever read this Gareth, one more massive thanks for being so helpful!!! Massive thanks goes out to James as well for allowing this to take place at their premisses!

Here's a rare photo showing the ZR out in the wild chatting up two innocent looking Mythoses


----------



## dsc

We only did a few shots, but nailed it twice with really high extraction yields, especially for a conic.


----------



## MWJB

dsc said:


> We only did a few shots, but nailed it twice with really high extraction yields, especially for a conic.


Did you compare with the Mythos?


----------



## dsc

Not really, the only time the Mythos came up is at the very end when we pulled a very short 18s shot, but still got the same TDS result as from a Mythos and it tasted very well to our surprise.

T.


----------



## Mrboots2u

dsc said:


> We only did a few shots, but nailed it twice with really high extraction yields, especially for a conic.


How did it taste


----------



## dsc

Suprisingly good considering all the previous high EXT shots I've had from the L1 weren't that great (too harsh and not well balanced). Body was big and pleasant which is sort of a given with a conic, but it's worth noting that the coffee we used was quite spectacular as well (Kamwangi, Washed Kenyan). Gareth did most of the sampling as this is typically what he does but in the heat of the moment I've not asked him how he compares the conic to the Mythos for example. I'll see if I can get a bit more info out of him today.

T.


----------



## MWJB

dsc said:


> Suprisingly good considering all the previous high EXT shots I've had from the L1 weren't that great (too harsh and not well balanced). Body was big and pleasant which is sort of a given with a conic, but it's worth noting that the coffee we used was quite spectacular as well (Kamwangi, Washed Kenyan). Gareth did most of the sampling as this is typically what he does but in the heat of the moment I've not asked him how he compares the conic to the Mythos for example. I'll see if I can get a bit more info out of him today.
> 
> T.


With brewed I frequently find Kenyans give higher EYs & good tasting high EYs compared to many other origins (not usually as high as what you're seeing though, generally in the region of 21-22%).


----------



## Mrboots2u

dsc said:


> Suprisingly good considering all the previous high EXT shots I've had from the L1 weren't that great (too harsh and not well balanced). Body was big and pleasant which is sort of a given with a conic, but it's worth noting that the coffee we used was quite spectacular as well (Kamwangi, Washed Kenyan). Gareth did most of the sampling as this is typically what he does but in the heat of the moment I've not asked him how he compares the conic to the Mythos for example. I'll see if I can get a bit more info out of him today.
> 
> T.


Was the extraction at 9 bar


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## dsc

From what I gather yes, but I'm double checking with Gareth.

EDIT: got an email back from Gareth, it was 9 bar flat, so nothing fancy.

T.


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## dsc

Huge thanks goes out to @jlarkin for having me over for a short session, it was interesting to see how the same coffee behaves on a different machine and with a lower dose. We were getting fairly tasty shots at around 19-20% ext. and also tried a filter at 21% ext. which wasn't that great for some reason (much preffered a 20% ext. EK brew).

Next stop, Rave forum day

T.


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## dsc

Forgot to post a photo:


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## MWJB

dsc said:


> Huge thanks goes out to @jlarkin for having me over for a short session, it was interesting to see how the same coffee behaves on a different machine and with a lower dose. We were getting fairly tasty shots at around 19-20% ext. and also tried a filter at 21% ext. which wasn't that great for some reason (much preffered a 20% ext. EK brew).
> 
> Next stop, Rave forum day
> 
> T.


Out of interest what was the filter method?

How do these different scenarios relate to burr gap?


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## dsc

Behmor brewer was used for brews and we only did a single brew with the conic simply to try it out before we called it a day.

Espresso was pulled at 0.65mm burr gap and brewed was 1.20mm, but that wasn't 100% dialed in (and was sifted through a Kruve).

T.


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## MWJB

dsc said:


> Behmor brewer was used for brews and we only did a single brew with the conic simply to try it out before we called it a day.
> 
> Espresso was pulled at 0.65mm burr gap and brewed was 1.20mm, but that wasn't 100% dialed in (and was sifted through a Kruve).
> 
> T.


What did you remove from the grind with the Kruve?


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## jlarkin

It was a pleasure to have you. I think I'll be refracting some more shots over the coming days (maybe weeks, depending) but have a feeling I generally get pretty low extractions. So that ~20% shot with the Kenyan might have been actually much higher than my norm but we shall see.

Great to see you and the ZR in action + to have a bit of coffee natter is always good for the soul (IMO, YMMV etc. )


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## jlarkin

MWJB said:


> What did you remove from the grind with the Kruve?


Think it was whatever was left over the 1000 sieve.


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## MWJB

jlarkin said:


> Think it was whatever was left over the 1000 sieve.


Must have been a pretty big proportion of the grind?


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## dsc

Not sure what the sieve sizes were, but we used it to grind match the EK as weren't sure what burr gap would work and didn't have time to dial things in properly. All I remember is that we had around 3g of fines in the bottom of the Kruve and 3.5g on the EK I think. Joe would have to chip in with sieve sizes used.

T.


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## jlarkin

MWJB said:


> Must have been a pretty big proportion of the grind?


Both starting weights were of 24g coffee into the grinder. The EK had 2.5g over 1000 and ZR had (I think) about 3g or so.

As Tom said the EK had 3.5 under 350 and I guess ~3 for the ZR would be right. Although I tried to sift through the 350 out of interest I incorporated the below and above 350 into the coffee to brew with.

I did use slightly less water with the ZR - calculated it at the time to try to have the same ratio...

We were running out of time, so did this for interest sake right at the end.


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