# Grind and Brew filter coffe vs. Espresso machine



## TheDatmo (Mar 21, 2013)

The title says it a really. What's the best investment? Kitchen space is a problem so I'm interested in a machine with a built in grinder but I do like the idea och dealing with a tamper and actually MAKING my coffee. Espresso machine with grinder or grind and brew filter? Any suggestions?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

How do you like to drink your coffee? Short espresso shots (30-60ml), or longer drinks (a cup/mugful)?

If you specifically like longer drinks, I'd go for a grinder & perhaps manual brewer like cafetiere/French press, Aeropress, Sowden Oscar, Clever Coffee Dripper. There aren't many coffee brewers with a good reputation...the Technivorm seems well thought of but does not have a built in grinder.

If you want to make espresso, the general consensus will be that you need a grinder and an espresso machine.

Are you more interested in having a quick, fuss free coffee drink, or learning the intricacies of coffee extraction? Be aware, even if you say the former...it often leads to the latter! ;-)


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

TheDatmo said:


> The title says it a really. What's the best investment? Kitchen space is a problem so I'm interested in a machine with a built in grinder but I do like the idea och dealing with a tamper and actually MAKING my coffee. Espresso machine with grinder or grind and brew filter? Any suggestions?


Ooh! Where to start. If kitchen space is a problem - now about something like an Aeropress £20.00. Pair it with a Porlex hand grinder £30.00. Minimal outlay - great quality potential. But buy fresh decent beans and you will be amazed what coffee can taste like. For £70-£100 you could pick up a decent second hand espresso machine which would open up the world of espresso to you.


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

I second MWJB's questions. It all boils down to what you like to drink and whether you want to make it a hobby too. Brewed coffee undoubtedly requires less space as in simplest form only needs a grinder, and you can get just as scientific over the preparation as you can with espresso.

There's perhaps one question that would decide instantly: do you take milk with your coffee? If yes, then don't bother with brewed coffee. If yes, and you don't want the ball-ache of learning how to pull a decent shot and steam milk, get a bean to cup or capsule machine.


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## TheDatmo (Mar 21, 2013)

I'm currently buying ground coffee and use a cafetiere and drink it black... in a mug. Not very classy for someone who loves coffee but being lactose intolerant that was the obvious choice for me. But we now have more options and as more cafés offer soya and lactose free milk I've started to get a real taste for lattes and cappuccinos etc. An espresso is always a good idea! Plus I'm really tired of the grit that always end up in the cup when you pour from a cafetiere.


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

That's great! In that case I'd invest in a grinder and one manual brewer that will filter the coffee. If you're only making one mug at a time, I'd recommend an aeropress - it's the closest you can get to the profile of a cafetiere without the grit, and requires no additional equipment. If you want to make larger volumes you could buy a Clever Coffee Dripper that's pretty simple to use, is very cheap, and again requires nothing else bar filter papers.

Otherwise there are the larger versions of Hario v60, kalita wave, and Chemex. These all require a pouring kettle though really.


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## TheDatmo (Mar 21, 2013)

What about The Cuisinart Grind & Brew Plus with burr grinder? At least I step up ground ground to freshly ground but I do like the idea of mastering the espresso and making cappuccinos etc.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Nothing wrong with a mug of black, brewed coffee.

Well, a grit aversion rules out the cafetiere & Sowden (though either can be filtered through a brewer with a paper filter, like an Aeropress or generic cone...but I guess it's simpler just to buy a filtered brewer), like Aeropress (versatile, can do short intense coffee, but no crema...or a good mugful of brewed coffee) or Clever Coffee Dripper (a mug or two of brewed black coffee).

For milky espresso based drinks, +1 for a good bean to cup/capsule machine. Are you concerned about being tied into a brand/limited suppliers, or are you looking to try all sorts of coffees & roasts? Sorry, more questions than answers, but you'll find you are opening Pandora's box a little here...some folks want a nice coffee, without too much hassle...others want to try small lot "single origin" coffees (think along the lines of a decent blended whisky vs single cask malts?).


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## TheDatmo (Mar 21, 2013)

I should add that I usually make 1-2 cups at a time once a day on week days and about 3 times a day on weekends. When we have friends and family over that cup count usually goes up quite fast.


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## TheDatmo (Mar 21, 2013)

I'd love to try as many coffee blends as I can find. I'm a single malt kind of guy and even though I have my favourites I do like to explore other brands and tastes. The crema in coffee is something I really like as well. I don't know why but to me it goes hand in hand with a good coffee.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

http://coffeegeek.com/reviews/drip/cuisinart_grind_and_brew

...it doesn't look good?

Many coffee based kitchen appliances are more "kitchen appliance" than coffee machine, sacrificing tangible quality for a little more convenience.


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## TheDatmo (Mar 21, 2013)

Those are all very old reviews and so I think the newer one is different, but I could be wrong and I do get your point.

http://www.cuisinart.co.uk/products-detail.php?ProductID=13&ProductCategoryID=0&ProductGroupID=24&DiscontinuedOnly=N


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## TheDatmo (Mar 21, 2013)

A good bean to cup machine seem to cost as much as a Rocket Giotto Espresso Machine (although you don't need to pay extra for a good tamper, grinder etc) and I'm not sure they're much smaller than an espresso machine either.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You won't get any crema with a filter machine, not even with a £200 Technivorm.

Looks like you're steering more to a good bean to cup espresso machine? Not something I have experience with, but Londinium used to recommend some of the De Longhi machines. Also have a look at some video reviews/tests at http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

TheDatmo said:


> A good bean to cup machine seem to cost as much as a Rocket Giotto Espresso Machine (although you don't need to pay extra for a good tamper, grinder etc) and I'm not sure they're much smaller than an espresso machine either.


B2C machines are, by nature, a compromise and not cheap. For the price of one, a much better individual set up could be bought. Boils down to what you prioritise - quality or convenience. They are also more complicated and for complicated read more likely to go wrong.


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

One of the best cups of brewed coffee I've had was made with equipment that totalled £50. Provided you're willing to buy decent beans and experiment, it needn't cost the earth.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I too think if you are limited for space and like a cup of good black coffee you should go the filter route. If you are brewing for a few people at any one time though maybe get a Chemex and a Porlex Hand Grinder.

If espresso is a must or you want to steam milk then the Gaggia Classic and an Ascaso iMini is about as cheap as it gets with a small footprint on the counter to produce decent espresso. You need a decent tamper for this setup too, and to swap the pressurised basket that comes as standard for a normal one. Much more costly than above, although there are second hand bargains to be had.

Whichever route you choose make sure you buy freshly roasted beans and use them within a few weeks of roasting - see the supplier list on the beans subforum.


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## TheDatmo (Mar 21, 2013)

I like the idea of having a proper Espresso machine and a Rocket would look nice too sitting next to a Ascaso iMini grinder. Does the Cellini and Giotto also have a non-pressurised basket and why would I need to change it? Are pressurised basket just generally better, pull higher quality shots? And how much are they roughly?

When it comes to space there's always a way to fit one in there but I thought an espresso machine with built in grinder or B2C would be better to at least save the space of a separate grinder. Then again the grinders aren't massive so that could be stores in a cupboard or on a shall and be plugged in at use. No biggie.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

TheDatmo said:


> When it comes to space there's always a way to fit one in there but I thought an espresso machine with built in grinder or B2C would be better to at least save the space of a separate grinder. Then again the grinders aren't massive so that could be stores in a cupboard or on a shall and be plugged in at use. No biggie.


Hmmmm...you might want to rethink the "not massive grinder, stored in a cupboard idea"? ;-) A grinder, to do the machines you mention justice, will have a fair bit of heft to it.


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## TheDatmo (Mar 21, 2013)

Haha ok the Ascaso iMini doesn't look huge but I guess it's far to say it won't fit in a cupboard. Man, I wish we had a bigger kitchen.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

You'd need a wardrobe for my grinder ; )


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## TheDatmo (Mar 21, 2013)

So to summarize:

A good B2C have the same size and cost as much as an Espresso machine, is less fun to use and have electronics etc than can stop working.

An Espresso machine would have a steeper learning curve (but that's the point... to be an amateur home barista) and definitely need a good

grinder that cost £200-300 in addition to the Expresso machine. So might be more expensive and take up more kitchen space than a B2C option.

The above are my only options to get good coffee that can produce good crema in a black coffee and still produce milk drinks as well.

Am I right?


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## twistywizard (Sep 3, 2012)

Pretty much!

You sound like you want quality and if that is so I think you need to go down the Grinder/Machine as seperates route. I get the feeling if you bought a B2C machine you would be selling it in a few months and going the seperates route







Save yourself the hassle.

Perhaps someone is close enough to kindly show you their setup and how it works and ultimately what the end result is. I think once you have tried a couple of well prepared drinks you will only be able to go one direction.


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## TheDatmo (Mar 21, 2013)

Haha you know me so well already! I think you're right.

I need to work out where to put everything in the kitchen so the boss lady is happy









What about pressurized vs. non-pressurized basket?

Is it a necessity and easy to replace on a Rocket and how much are they roughly?

This is a great forum


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

TheDatmo said:


> So to summarize:
> 
> A good B2C have the same size and cost as much as an Espresso machine, is less fun to use and have electronics etc than can stop working.
> 
> ...


Why does crema indicate quality for coffee? Have you ever tasted a scoop full of crema by itself?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Why does crema indicate quality for coffee? Have you ever tasted a scoop full of crema by itself?


I think Italians, in the early days, viewed crema negatively - even as an unpleasant scum. Funny, how things change.


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## TheDatmo (Mar 21, 2013)

I don't say it is it's just what I think of when I think of good coffee. I can't describe why but there have probably been a perfect amount of crema in some of the better coffees that I've had in my life. I just love drinking coffee and being scandinavian, I do drink a lot of coffee. I'm a rookie when it comes to what's right and wrong but that's why I want to get involved in it more than just drinking it and taking it for granted.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

TheDatmo said:


> What about pressurized vs. non-pressurized basket? This is a great forum


Forget pressurised baskets, IMO. They were introduced to create big crema in the belief that espresso machine novices equated a big crema with shot quality. Most Gaggia Classic owners quickly realise it's best to get a non pressurised basket if their Classic came shipped with the pressurised version. My older Classics were shipped with the standard non pressurised basket. I think pod machines have a lot to answer for.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

A rocket is unlikely to come with a pressurised basket, they come with Gaggia Classics and cheaper machines so people can put old stale coffee in with no technique and it still looks like an espresso coming out.

The Ascaso iMini is fine for a Gaggia Classic or similar entry level machine) but not good enough for a Rocket (I owned an iMini for 4 years), it is similar to an Iberital MC2 and really an entry level grinder.


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## TheDatmo (Mar 21, 2013)

aaronb said:


> The Ascaso iMini is fine for a Gaggia Classic or similar entry level machine) but not good enough for a Rocket (I owned an iMini for 4 years), it is similar to an Iberital MC2 and really an entry level grinder.


Ok thanks! That's that's that sorted then. Un-pressurized basket it is.

I will take the opportunity to ask for good value grinder recommendations as well then please?


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## twistywizard (Sep 3, 2012)

I had a Vario which was a fantastic piece of kit with a very small foot print. However I got a cracking deal on a used Super Jolly which has a much larger footprint but I have found faultless.

There are far more knowledgeable guys on here than me when it comes to Grinders. Sure they will pipe up


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## AlexB (Mar 20, 2013)

I used to own a B2C machine (a Jura Ena), and recently upgraded to an HX machine and a Vario grinder. My reasons for making the switch largely revolved around my dissatisfaction with the coffee I was getting out of the Jura, coupled with the inability to tweak and adjust the process to get the best possible results. The difference in cost between the Jura and my current setup was fairly minimal. As far as grinder footprint goes, the Vario is a pretty compact machine that seems to be working very well for me so far.


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

Datmo, I think I saw somewhere in another post that you live in London. Have you been to a few "decent" cafes in town? If not I'd suggest visiting a few and trying a variety of drinks - a well made Aeropress/Chemex/v60, some different espresso blends/single origins, and some iterations of espresso + milk. Whilst getting a taste of the potential of coffee, you could also chat to some baristas who could give some advice and perhaps intimate the effort involved in all this. I'm not trying to be dissuasive, just suggesting a little caution before spending a lot of money!


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## TheDatmo (Mar 21, 2013)

That sounds like a good idea. Maybe I should find some really good cafés around London first and as you say both try and ask to see what will best fit my needs. Thanks!


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## twistywizard (Sep 3, 2012)

Do also take into account asking a Full Time Barista about the process will yield a different response from a Home Enthusiast. I would also wager that a lot of Baristas have barely touched a Home based machine either.

There must be some London members that would show you there setup and what is involved to give you a more realistic idea of what to expect.

However drinking say a Flat White in a good independant shop will give you an idea of what you can produce at home with a little effort. However you are unlikely to replicate these results with a B2C machine.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Value really is an Iberital MC2 or Ascaso iMini in my opinion, if you are going for the rocket you need a nice grinder to match it to get the best out of it - a Eureka Mignon or Vario would give much better results, or maybe a second hand super jolly.

If you are in London then definitely do some tasting, Tapped & Packed and Department of Coffee & Social affairs do good brewed coffee and if you catch them at a quiet time will happily chat to you, try Kaffeine for an espresso based drink.


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