# Billybob



## Billybob (May 6, 2020)

Hi everyone, looking for some advice on a Sage Barista express I have just bought. Still learning the art of making great coffee, but having some trouble getting it right. It's a long post, so firstly, sorry about that .

where I'm struggling is getting the extraction and grind right. I've bought some tester packets of good quality, freshly roasted beans. Before these arrived, I tried supermarket bought ones (which were pretty awful but gave me practice).

First thing, the dose from the grinder seems way off. The manual suggests leaving the dial in the "3 o'clock" position. However this dispenses around 12g on a single shot setting. I have to turn it close to '12 o'clock' to get it to 8g. Does that seem right? Not a huge problem, I was just surprised.

regarding the grind, I have to have it on 1 or 2 to get the pressure meter anywhere near the 'espresso' zone. Any coarser than this and extraction is very quick, and sour. This was true for both the supermarket rubbish beans and the proper ones.

I tamp with the supplied tool, and put a fair amount of pressure into the tamp. I've experimented with different forces of tamping and when I tamp light, the needle barely moves and a double will complete in 17 seconds (undrinkable). When I tamp what I think is normal force, pressure gauge moves to just to the edge of over-extraction and takes about 29 seconds, taste is acceptable, perhaps a little on the sour side if anything (with milk it's fine).

I'm sure a lot of this is down to practice, but it just seems odd that I have to go straight to the finest setting to get an extraction that I can actually drink.

Could this just be down to the beans I'm using, that while freshly roasted, they just might not be best suited to the machine? 
or is it just down to more practice?

cheers for reading.


----------



## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

Hi mate,

there's a lot of users on here with great info on sage machines, il be happy to help, best man for the job is @TomHughes he's done a great module on sage machines and how to use and solve problems that come up!


----------



## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Hey Billybob, 
Have a read through the sticky post on the sage sub-forum. 
Like all machines, but personally from my experience with the sage they are very bean dependent. There is a good reason why shops and lots of us get certain beans and stick with them. Dialling in a bean can be a PITA and you will often waste a lot of beans doing so. 
So much so that if you are going with espresso it can be worth experimenting to find the beans you like, then maybe get a kilo of them to fully dial in the settings for them. 
I find the sage more finicky because the way it works to build pressure and how this relates to water flow in the thermocoil etc. 
So bascially, sages pull rubbish shots till almost miraculously hitting the money, then they pull excellent shotst! 
My previous experience with small single boilers, gaggias etc. was that if you didn't get it dead on you would often get drinkable shots.

Anyway.

In order to help we need more info,

So read that post then come back here and post.

1.Beans, where from, what roast level and roast date. 
A dark roast bean that was roasted a month ago is stale. 
A light roast bean at the same time might be coming good.

Unfortunately with the sage you have the grinder too. It's a bit of a pig. It does less well with lighter roasts (and oily ones due to the feeding system) and grind tends to get inconsistent down in the finer grind range.

Hence why plenty of people who have these (me included) actually get a separate grinder.

But it can work really well with a medium roast, if you can get the settings right and it can be consistent.

2. Dose in and out. You need to be weighing both. 
Don't grind straight into the PF, get a cup, grind into that and weigh the grind in and the espresso out.

These variables with time and beans will help work out why your drink isn't as good as you want it to be.


----------



## Adam.f (Apr 9, 2020)

This has some good tips for tamping.


----------



## Billybob (May 6, 2020)

thanks guys. I'll have a good read and watch the tamp video.

Some positive news this morning anyway, I ran out of my last lot of beans (as you say, I'm burning through them at the moment), but went for one of the darker roasts. On second go it seemed to come together.

the grinder seemed to dispense an amount commensurate with the dial setting too (so I adjusted this as at first it was dispensing 15g, where other beans dispensed 18. So after putting 18 in, a good tamp (I think) and pour was 24 seconds (previous bean was 18 and awful).

more importantly though it tasted pretty good. So, more practice and experimentation but what else is there to do during the lockdown . Exactly why I bought it in the first place, my favourite coffee shop down the road is shut and I need decent coffee!!

Sumatra Mandheling

from Redber Roasted on 01/05/2020

18g in

53g out

23 seconds

Grind setting 2


----------



## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Billybob said:


> thanks guys. I'll have a good read and watch the tamp video.
> 
> Some positive news this morning anyway, I ran out of my last lot of beans (as you say, I'm burning through them at the moment), but went for one of the darker roasts. On second go it seemed to come together.
> 
> ...


 You are probably going to need to adjust the inner burr of your grinder if you are on setting 2 already.


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Billybob said:


> Hi everyone, looking for some advice on a Sage Barista express I have just bought. Still learning the art of making great coffee, but having some trouble getting it right. It's a long post, so firstly, sorry about that .
> 
> where I'm struggling is getting the extraction and grind right. I've bought some tester packets of good quality, freshly roasted beans. Before these arrived, I tried supermarket bought ones (which were pretty awful but gave me practice).
> 
> ...


 Hi BillyBob, I've been using the Sage BE about 4 months and your experience sounds like mine at the start. First thing I would do is read Tom Hughes' stickied post in the Sage forum. Post number 14 in that thread is my advice, learned after 3 months of Sage BE use, lots of tips in there. The video for adjusting the top burr is also included in my post.

I (and I think most Sage BE users) single dose. So the grind amount dial doesn't really come into play. Just set it long enough to do all the beans. Or press button twice. As long as you weigh the output and get the grammage you are trying to achieve, you're good.


----------



## Billybob (May 6, 2020)

Some great advice here and on the pinned post too. Having adjusted the top burr setting, Down to '4' for the upper burr and played around some more.

Changed the external grind dial To 7 after and it was still too quick. Moved it finer one by one and the pour barely changed. So no I'm on 2 for the external dial again and the pour is still too quick. Ignoring the pressure meter for now (which barely moves anyway), the pour is still around 18/19 seconds.

So it's either a dodgy grinder or my tamp is way off. Could it be that the problem is me (surely not 🙂 )?

the tamp video posted by Adam gave me some good tips. I'm out of these beans now too, so I have to use a new batch. Starting to get a little frustrated with it and I'm doing my wife's head in (nothing new with that though). However, with all that said, it doesn't actually taste too bad with milk. Not great, but it's certainly better than the crap you get in the national coffee chains.


----------



## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Billybob said:


> Some great advice here and on the pinned post too. Having adjusted the top burr setting, Down to '4' for the upper burr and played around some more.
> 
> Changed the external grind dial To 7 after and it was still too quick. Moved it finer one by one and the pour barely changed. So no I'm on 2 for the external dial again and the pour is still too quick. Ignoring the pressure meter for now (which barely moves anyway), the pour is still around 18/19 seconds.
> 
> ...


 Is the machine new?


----------



## Billybob (May 6, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> Is the machine new?


 It is yes (at least it should be). Although with all the adjustments seemingly making no difference I had to double check I hadn't inadvertently bought a refurb.


----------



## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Billybob said:


> It is yes (at least it should be). Although with all the adjustments seemingly making no difference I had to double check I hadn't inadvertently bought a refurb.


 Where did you get it from? 
The grinders are sometimes not set up well, so you may need to have another look at the top burr if you're still struggling.


----------



## Billybob (May 6, 2020)

It was from Amazon. Box wasn't disturbed in anyway so should all be factory settings.

just done a few now. Upper burr in '5', outer grind dial first on 5 (awful and 17 second pour), then moved outer dial to '1' using a medium-dark bean roasted on 01/05.

18g in, 18 out..

gave it a good tamp with plenty of pressure to ensure it was well compacted.

pour took 17 seconds and just looked soooo wrong. Taste was disgusting. Didn't even bother weighing the shot but it was definitely a double. Don't understand how the outer dial makes absolutely no difference. I followed all advice, changed the dial, wastes a few grinds to ensure the changes was 'dialled in', gave a good, even tamp. But it was no different?

going to ring sage on Monday. No way it should taste that bad with what I'm doing. So, see what they say and if no luck it's going back and I'll just get a DeLonghi and save my self £250.

must have pulled 100-120 shots in the past 10 days and spent £30 on beans. I'd say 10 have been drinkable.

don't understand how even taking the grind down so low it's still such a quick pour and adjustments seemingly make absolutely no difference.

Unless it's faulty of course.


----------



## Billybob (May 6, 2020)

Okay, seems my daily Sage coffee rant was public today. Sorry about that.

just had one last go, turned the outer burr to '3, kept external dial on 1 ran a few grinds and threw away. 
18 in, 18g out. Pour 25 secs, and shot weighed 55g.

tastes decent (finally).

A decent tamper is arriving tomorrow so see if that helps to get more consistency.


----------



## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

it can be very frustrating! good luck!

i'm sure you've tried a lot of things, but i found my distribution/tamp quite inconsistent earlier on (still not great), so definitely leave the grind/beans/etc the same for a few goes.


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Billybob said:


> Okay, seems my daily Sage coffee rant was public today. Sorry about that.
> 
> just had one last go, turned the outer burr to '3, kept external dial on 1 ran a few grinds and threw away.
> 18 in, 18g out. Pour 25 secs, and shot weighed 55g.
> ...


 Was going to suggest this. I adjusted the top burr twice, once to 5, then to 3. First setting wasn't good, still wasn't fine enough. Now I'm on top burr 3, dial 3 and Rave coffee tastes great.

A good tamper will help too, mine markedly improved when I got the Motta tamper. Don't forget to run at least 3 dummy shots to get the water hot enough. That is huge, don't skip that step.


----------



## Billybob (May 6, 2020)

"



> don't forget to run at least 3 dummy shots to get the water hot enough. That is huge, don't skip that step."


 Definitely. Maybe I'm finally making some head way on this, see what happens over the next few brews.

Decent tamper should hopefully arrive tomorrow (I've gone for the Motta too). Plus thinking of getting the Motta distribution tool when it's back in stock. See how it goes with the tamper first.


----------



## Billybob (May 6, 2020)

> Now I'm on top burr 3, dial 3 and Rave coffee tastes great.


 Out of interest @CocoLoco, what beam do you use from Rave? Ive gone through that many bad brews so far I've not actually been able to figure out which bean is best. 
clean slate for the next batch so any recommendations that worked well with the Sage BE would be useful.


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Billybob said:


> Out of interest @CocoLoco, what beam do you use from Rave? Ive gone through that many bad brews so far I've not actually been able to figure out which bean is best.
> clean slate for the next batch so any recommendations that worked well with the Sage BE would be useful.


 Just the most popular ones. In order of what I enjoyed most: Fudge blend was best, came out nice and honey like, tasted creamy and fudge like. Chatswood probably second, then Mocha Java Blend, then Italian Job, then Signature.


----------



## Adam.f (Apr 9, 2020)

I just opened a bag of Raves Colombia El Carmen, really enjoying the taste of it, nice chocolate and caramel taste come through it. It's a medium/dark roast.


----------



## Billybob (May 6, 2020)

the Motta tamper arrived today and first impressions are that this is soooo much better. Instantly, my results have been way more consistent and better tasting.

you have to wonder why Sage bother with that very lightweight version they supply it with. No idea if this is the big difference in my coffee now but huge coincidence if it's not.


----------



## Billybob (May 6, 2020)

Seems I'm back to square one with this. 🤨

inner burr now down to setting 1, and 3 on outer burr. Tried every combination of bean in, extraction and all sorts. Always sour, it's okay with milk, drinkable. But not great.

espresso (most recent 16g in, 48 out. Pour 32 sec. sour again and not drinkable). Quickly getting to the point where I can't get any finer. Using beans roasted 1 week ago from coffeelink, but pretty much the same from black at & redber too.

only espresso that's actually drinkable are Tesco own brand (I know). They're not nice, but it's drinkable at least.

So am I just getting too light a roast for the machine? Or is it a dodgy grinder!

doing my nut in now. Ready to send it back.


----------



## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Billybob said:


> Seems I'm back to square one with this. 🤨
> 
> inner burr now down to setting 1, and 3 on outer burr. Tried every combination of bean in, extraction and all sorts. Always sour, it's okay with milk, drinkable. But not great.
> 
> ...


 Potentially, how light are the roasts? 
Have you put the temp up?


----------

