# Tamping / Tamper advice: Pergtamp/Torr?



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Despite having no majorly discerning taste buds, I felt that maybe I needed to get a little nutation going on as my pucks looked a little spacey on the edges.

But my basket is too tight to nutate the tamper easily and now I'm thinking I need something like one of these Pertamp/Torr creations.

What are your thoughts on all this jazz please - are there other options - is there a better way to get my sides all smooth and silky and firm?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Perger says don't nutate.

Nutation seems to increase density around the edge of the puck, you really want even density across the puck (hence the theory behind the biggest reasonable diameter, compressing fullest area).


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Perger says don't nutate.
> 
> Nutation seems to increase density around the edge of the puck, you really want even density across the puck (hence the theory behind the biggest reasonable diameter, compressing fullest area).


Didn't Perger originally promote nutating?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Funny one this, i used to nutate with my 58mm convex torr, picked up a 58.something flat and ditched the nutate, getting very different results in the pour.

Convex used to give split pours which come together to form one at about 10 seconds.

Flat gives me a dead spot in the center of the basket and creates a doughnut like shape.

Both taste fine and do not really affect the timings, just how it comes out.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

MWJB said:


> Perger says don't nutate.
> 
> Nutation seems to increase density around the edge of the puck, you really want even density across the puck (hence the theory behind the biggest reasonable diameter, compressing fullest area).


Thanks; I see...!

So let's turn this on it's head:

I'm currently using a 58.35 which is tight - but I'm still getting gappy sides - how would folk handle this issue please?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Didn't Perger originally promote nutating?


As a last resort to slow down to ek pours I think


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

froggystyle said:


> Funny one this, i used to nutate with my 58mm convex torr, picked up a 58.something flat and ditched the nutate, getting very different results in the pour.
> 
> Convex used to give split pours which come together to form one at about 10 seconds.
> 
> ...


So would you advocate flat with no nutate then?

I guess you're talking about Naked baskets - which I still don't have!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Funny one this, i used to nutate with my 58mm convex torr, picked up a 58.something flat and ditched the nutate, getting very different results in the pour.
> 
> Convex used to give split pours which come together to form one at about 10 seconds.
> 
> ...


on and off I get the same


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jonc said:


> Thanks; I see...!
> 
> So let's turn this on it's head:
> 
> I'm currently using a 58.35 which is tight - but I'm still getting gappy sides - how would folk handle this issue please?


Is there a radiussed edge on the face of the tamper? If so, this is what the Pergtamp aims to eliminate.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

MWJB said:


> Is there a radiussed edge on the face of the tamper? If so, this is what the Pergtamp aims to eliminate.


Maybe a little - yes - it's an MBK 58.35 from Artisan Roast...


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

jonc said:


> So would you advocate flat with no nutate then?
> 
> I guess you're talking about Naked baskets - which I still don't have!


For me, convex and nutate feels better and gives a nice looking puck, the flat tends to give a very slight crack round the edge of the puck sometimes.

Yes using a naked.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Didn't Perger originally promote nutating?


Nutating existed prior to Perger demonstrating at Melbourne in 2013, he seemed to use it to facilitate the espresso & capp shots, to slow them down & not for the longer shots?

You want the grind itself to slow the shot, evenly, not more tightly packed areas of the puck.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

What i can't understand is when nutating with the convex i get the split pour, which i guess you could put down to the center being slightly more packed than the edges, this would be caused by the last firm tamp and the convexed part pushing the center down more?

However getting a dead spot in the center of the basket when tamping with the flat and no nutating, this confuses me, only thing i can put it down to is grinding into the center of the basket, then tapping PF with side of hand to equal out, leaving more in the center?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I've gone through nutating phases, more so with a convex.

Nutating with a flat feels wrong to me for some reason. I'm not ruling it out though, my prep sequence tends to be changing every 2-3 months anyway. Currently in the non nutating camp though.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

I've tried nutating and haven't got it right yet. Inevitably I slip and put a divot in the puck, so have to dump contents out and back in with a WBT to break up clumps. Now with my MBK Heft 585, its just too tight a fit to nutate, so that option/complexity/opportunity to mess up is off the table.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

ridland said:


> I've tried nutating and haven't got it right yet. Inevitably I slip and put a divot in the puck, so have to dump contents out and back in with a WBT to break up clumps. Now with my MBK Heft 585, its just too tight a fit to nutate, so that option/complexity/opportunity to mess up is off the table.


Do you get a nice consistent pour/puck with that?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Has anyone got any additional thoughts on this please?



jonc said:


> I'm currently using a 58.35 which is tight - but I'm still getting gappy sides - how would folk handle this issue please?


(When I say gappy sides - I don't think the edges of my basket are getting tamped enough really)


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## nostream (Apr 2, 2015)

jonc said:


> Has anyone got any additional thoughts on this please?
> 
> (When I say gappy sides - I don't think the edges of my basket are getting tamped enough really)


The Pergtamp eliminates the problem. You need a precisely-fitted tamper to get rid of those gaps. Any 58.5 mm fitted tamper should work just as well as the Pergtamp, and I've gotten very similar results from a 58.4 mm flat as a Perg. The important points are (1) flat bottom and (2) >=58.35. I wouldn't buy a >58.5 since 58.5's are pretty readily-available.

If you're using a flat 58.35, I doubt you're losing more than .1-.2% EY from it vs. a perfectly-fitted flat.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

I'm finding myself more concerned with dosing and distribution , I'm finding nutating is giving me a nice flat surface and the tamp is nearly non existent .

I do get some two necked serpents once in a while , but I use the force and will power and they soon merge together.


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## Taff (May 5, 2015)

Not sure where I read it, (I think maybe he tweeted me) but Perger is now just advocating no messing with it straight from the grinder, two taps on the side of the PF to level the grounds, then two taps down onto the tamping surface before tamping with a 58.35 or larger (in a VST) basket. I pretty much do this and found it very consistent..


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Taff said:


> Not sure where I read it, (I think maybe he tweeted me) but Perger is now just advocating no messing with it straight from the grinder, two taps on the side of the PF to level the grounds, then two taps down onto the tamping surface before tamping with a 58.35 or larger (in a VST) basket. I pretty much do this and found it very consistent..


My shots have been much more consistent since doing exactly this. No WDT, no fancy tamp technique.


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## Caaaallum (Aug 5, 2012)

I'd agree with the tapping method, it gives a much more consistent bed which means you can rely on the grind size for adjusting the speed of the shot.

If you're on the look out for some good tampers, check out the stuff from Made by Knock. Made in Scotland to some really precise sizes.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Caaaallum said:


> If you're on the look out for some good tampers, check out the stuff from Made by Knock. Made in Scotland to some really precise sizes.


if they ever show up.









Looking back on this thread @jonc I have the same tamper and the same issue. I now nutate very lightly (basically no pressure) just to press the edges down. I'm looking for something 58.5mm

I believe MBK do a pergtamp knock off?


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Heft 58.6mm?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

risky said:


> if they ever show up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Joe Frex do one too. Mine will be for sale if a) the PUSH ever comes and b) it's good


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> Joe Frex do one too. Mine will be for sale if a) the PUSH ever comes and b) it's good


Should only be 1 - 3 weeks away, perhaps, maybe


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

jlarkin said:


> Should only be 1 - 3 weeks away, perhaps, maybe


THose emails just give the time until we get another email telling us it'll be another 2-4 weeks. I've marked 30 September in my diary with a note to put the ETA back 2-4 weeks.


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