# How to: Find the Flavour ??



## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

I've been using beans that are noted to have a Caramel flavour.

I have tried changing ratios, times, going coarser and finer and changing tamp pressure.

I have pre-infused a little through to a lot.

Sure, lots of the characteristics such as acidity change doing this but......

I am now towards the end of this Kg and have yet to get that caramel either as espresso or as flat white.

Thoughts appreciated here


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Without a commentary on what you have been doing. And the recipe and how that tasted then its a little hard to comment....

What's the coffee for a start ?

Off hand it sounds like you have changed a lot of variables .hopefully only one at a time.....?


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

I started out by replicating, as closely as possible, this:






With the only difference I used 18g not 20g in

I then tried stopping at 20 secs then at 30secs then at 36 seconds

I then ground coarser and tamped harder stopping at 20, 26 and 32 secs

It became difficult to maintain the 1 sec per gram coffee in the cup but it was not too far out

I then ground finer tamped light but still got 26g but this time in 40 seconds.

Each and all of these variations were sadly lacking in caramel flavour from Rave Colombian Suarez 9 days from roasting


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

I'm trying to get the flavours from the coffee also...still learning lots. Nice scales btw, what make are they?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Acaia


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

grumpydaddy said:


> I started out by replicating, as closely as possible, this:


1 sec/gram only works for a small range of shot weights, it's not a useful standard for flavour, just for flow rates for ~25-35s (or g) shots, which can be made from any dose.

Try pulling heavier shots, but sticking to a consistent ratio...still not getting the sweetness, try heavier still.

You're weighing the output so don't fret so much about time unless it's crazy outside the norms.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok im not sure where to go with this

If we had a recipe 18 g into 36 g over x seconds it tasted " this way "

Keep tamp the same would be my advise ( its moving one variable at a time ) going coarser and tamping harder ... how do you know which variable you have changed is effecting the variable you want ....

Get a dose ( stick to it )

Try a brew ratio ( with a fixed pre infusion each time )

So example only 18 g into 36 g over 25-30 seconds

How does this taste

Try again , keep dose same , tamp same , alter grind to effect the amount of coffee and the brew ratio ( over roughy the same time but it doesnt have to be 1g a second )

taste

try again , keep dose same , tamp same , alter grind to effect to the amount of coffee and the brew ratio .......

I fear you are trying to get somewhere by changing alot of things at once and not getting a feel for what may or may not be effecting the extraction


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> 1 sec/gram only works for a small range of shot weights, it's not a useful standard for flavour, just for flow rates for ~25-35s (or g) shots, which can be made from any dose.
> 
> Try pulling heavier shots, but sticking to a consistent ratio...still not getting the sweetness, try heavier still.
> 
> You're weighing the output so don't fret so much about time unless it's crazy outside the norms.


lol

Are we contradicting each other ........


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

No, I think we're both saying that 1g/sec is of very limited value?


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

I find this whole thread quite reassuring, I must be better at this coffee lark than I thought.

I was the culprit who suggested this bean to grumpydaddy and told him it was like eating a caramac bar (not many will remember them).

Ian


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

....or it could just be that I am totally clap.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Have faith man, Rome wasn't built in a day.

Ian


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

No, give up, and donate you Santos to me


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

It might just be that you can't reference caramel notes in coffee to anything.

Have you had anything before that you thought 'bingo! caramel ahoy' to?


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

If Jeebsy gets the Santos i'll accept the Londinium 1.


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## twotone (Jan 13, 2015)

I actually tasted chocolate and walnut in Rave's Italian blend today, that's the very first time that I have tasted what the tasting notes on a packet beans said in over seven years of brewing espresso.

I'm on my second kg bag of these beans BTW which I bought three weeks ago but this last lot have been in the freezer for the past four days.


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## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

I have found that brew water temperature makes quite a difference to coffee flavour, too hot and the flavour seems to be masked ? lower temperature and the flavour(s) come through.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Today I had drip coffee from an L1 .......with different, darker roast, beans. Grind fine, two fingerweight tamp

18 in 29 out in ~*270 secs*









Geez have I got a lot to learn still


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Did someone say Caramac bars? I used to absolutely love those when I was a saucepan. Not seen them for years! Now if I could find a coffee that tasted like them...


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Oh yes, Caramac bars...remember those from when I was a lad! Used to feed some to a dog down the street. He too loved them!


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

You wouldn't catch me donating a single square of my Caramac to any local hound unless the alternative was that he was gonna bite me! It's not that I don't like dogs, but I liked Caramacs more.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Neighbour dobbed me in...... so, while he was at work, I fed his dog chocolate through the letterbox.... Ex-Lax









I wonder if the Rave beans are not such a strong caramel, what about other roasters?


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## Taylor The Latte Boy (Dec 9, 2013)

DoubleShot said:


> Oh yes, Caramac bars...remember those from when I was a lad! Used to feed some to a dog down the street. He too loved them!


You can still buy caramac bars in Sainsburys. I bought 18 of them a few months ago to make a caramac cheesecake.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Taylor The Latte Boy said:


> caramac cheesecake.


Divorce her. Marry me.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

grumpydaddy said:


> Neighbour dobbed me in...... so, while he was at work, I fed his dog chocolate through the letterbox.... Ex-Lax
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In milk the previous iteration of Cult of Done was like diving head first into a swimming pool full of caramel


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## Taylor The Latte Boy (Dec 9, 2013)

Scotford said:


> Divorce her. Marry me.


Come on now. You haven't even taken me on a date yet!


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Taylor The Latte Boy said:


> Come on now. You haven't even taken me on a date yet!


I'm more of a 'ere luv, does this smell of chloroform to you?' Kinda guy!


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## RazorliteX (Mar 2, 2014)

Not even the offer of a reach around, outrageous. Caramac cheesecake sounds out of this world.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Scotford said:


> I'm more of a 'ere luv, does this smell of chloroform to you?' Kinda guy!


Met a pretty lady today, and immediately there was a spark between us .........A taser is a really handy tool.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

I'm the sort of guy who uses pick up lines like:

'hey, did it hurt?'

-'what, when I fell from heaven teeheeeeeheeee'

'no, when you broke through the earths crust on your ascent from hell'


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

The funniest I have heard is: "Oi Daisy" shouted at two girls walking down the street. When one turned the next line was instant "Nah, not you, de ovver cah".

I'm not sure what guys like this hope to achieve but.....

Could we be maybe drifting off topic a bit?









So who thinks that Columbian Suarez tastes of caramel and if so at what strength (1-10) ??


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Confused , what is the scale of strength referring to ?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Confused , what is the scale of strength referring to ?


Caramel

You know that famous scale like Richter, Beaufort etc


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## Lefteye (Dec 30, 2014)

[quote name=grumpydaddy

Could we be maybe drifting off topic a bit?









So who thinks that Columbian Suarez tastes of caramel and if so at what strength (1-10) ??[/quote]

Less bite than the Uruguayan suarez


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## aodstratford (Sep 18, 2012)

grumpydaddy said:


> I've been using beans that are noted to have a Caramel flavour.
> 
> I have tried changing ratios, times, going coarser and finer and changing tamp pressure.
> 
> ...


I quite like the caramel flavours too - I have found good caramel taste from Extract Roasters Original blend (quite good value too) Having a shorter rather than a longer extraction seems to deliver more caramel taste. Adam


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