# La Pavoni bad shots



## Luverdark (Jan 18, 2021)

I've had my post mil LP (I believe gen 2) about a week and I keep pulling sour shots. Looking for some advice.

Routine: Weigh and grind my beans,

2.3 on my kinu

weigh 12.5g of ground coffee into PF

wdt with paperclip flatten by knocking on table tamp until puck compressed

brewing: 95C

60s Inc preinfusion (10s)

0.8 boiler pressure. I dont have a gauge on my lever.

lever felt loose at top, stiff towards bottom 12.5 in, 30 out

https://photos.app.goo.gl/qWgpESbs8M86K6M27

My shot tasted acidic, like underextracted. but I'm already grinding pretty fine and my dose is nearly as low as it can go.

I have experimented with 90C and 100C. 100C tasted much better, but still acidic.

I tried finer in grind but choked my machine.

I have cupped my coffee and it tasted great. Not acidic at all. I have even tried brewing with different beans and same issue.

--

Someone suggested that my water flow might not be correct.

Here is a video of someone elses: https://www.facebook.com/groups/LaPavoniLeverOwners/permalink/1591627961013879/

Here is a video of mine:

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMR9JTcXrgmuwNgb3lwod8Z8GUwbBP_grlLPICc_-PZpFtiGPajkYWSntY5SFo3MA/photo/AF1QipO4SxMP7CP2wIMAF67VI8-8tgkU6KP9VIRVNmlk?key=d09YaFRhNWNubV9xeUNVdTAtdUVnXzY2dzZ6V1R3


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I'm not sure. But:

60s seems way too long. Aim for 35 seconds in total.
how do you know the temperature? Do you have a thermometer? Where?
how do you know the pressure?
Make sure the group is hot beforehand. Pump the group a few times, without drawing water. Up and down with the lever, but not all the way up to the point it draws water. With the lever lifted just before it draws water, lock the PF in, lift it fully and pull.

this will increase group temp and remove sponginess feel from the group.

also adjust the piston throw, make sure he piston travels as far as possible: loose the nuts the top, and let the lever sit all the way down so it touches the shower screen. Then, turn the nut clockwise 1/2 turn. The. Put the locking nut back - the top nut - tighten it gently and that's it. Let us know how it goes.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

How long are you letting the machine heat up for?

Two potential things as far as I can see:

1) You're grinding way too fine (depending on how hard you have to pull?) which can cause sour shots.

or

2) 60s is probably too long. Pavonis have a limited shot volume without doing multiple pulls or half-pulls, which are best avoided as you risk disturbing the puck. So a 60s shot time for a 30g yield is 0.5ml/s on average; aside from requiring a hotter water temp than you would with a higher flow rate you're also struggling to properly extract with such a low flow. I believe the theory on it is it's like "washing the grinds" and a higher flow rate washes (extracts) more efficiently than a lower one. So you're going with a shortish ratio a little less than 1:2.5 with a low flow rate and possibly a low temperature if the group isn't heated properly. I would try a higher flow rate (so about 30 second shot time or a little more) and hope that solves the issue without altering temp.

If your lever feels loose at the top it means there's more room in there for water. I used to raise the lever just to the point water would dribble from the group, lower it just until it stopped, lock in the filter and raise and it would usually fill the group after some light pumps just at the top (without getting to the point it starts applying pressure to the puck). If memory serves you can raise and lower the lever without passing the inlet ports to draw water into the group without building pressure/sucking up through the puck.


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## Luverdark (Jan 18, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I'm not sure. But:
> 
> 60s seems way too long. Aim for 35 seconds in total.
> how do you know the temperature? Do you have a thermometer? Where?
> ...


 I can try to do it in 35s, maybe my grind is too fine?

Temperature info is coming from heat strips that I have on the grouphead. They read 90,95,100C. So I know when it hits each of the temperatures.

My boiler has a pressure gauge installed by the previous owner. I believe only 'professional' models coming with the gauge as stock.

I have been preheating the grouphead. Hence the temperature strips showing the correct temp. But usually I just let some water run through into a bowl. Haven't tried your method without letting water out.

>>>>

"With the lever lifted just before it draws water, lock the PF in, lift it fully and pull."

>>>

I have also been doing this a lot. I did it even in the video I posted. Hasn't seemed to fix it though. Still feels soft at the top.

>

"also adjust the piston throw, make sure he piston travels as far as possible: loose the nuts the top, and let the lever sit all the way down so it touches the shower screen. Then, turn the nut clockwise 1/2 turn. The. Put the locking nut back - the top nut - tighten it gently and that's it. Let us know how it goes."

>

Ok I will check if i've got the right wrenches and give this a shot. I was thinking the machine is perfectly functional but im not sure.


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## Luverdark (Jan 18, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> How long are you letting the machine heat up for?
> 
> Two potential things as far as I can see:
> 
> ...


 I will try to go coarser tomorrow. Most of the info I could see on the facebook group (and james hoffman), said that if the shot is sour you should either , go finer or lower your dose.

2)

Yes I have been experiencing low shot volume for most of my shots actually. I should have mentioned in the above post that I have been doing small fellini's to increase yield, otherwise I dont get the amount of coffee out that I desire.

I'm a little confused how I would increase the flowrate. I think my grind is almost so fine that pushing down the lever harder would choke the machine.

>>

" I used to raise the lever just to the point water would dribble from the group, lower it just until it stopped, lock in the filter"

>>

So this is what I actually do, but I dont do the light pumps like you suggest. After this I just raise the lever all the way up and keep it there for about 10seconds before doing a quick fellini and another 10seconds for pre-infusion.

So effectively:

1) I raise lever till water comes out

2) then lower it until it stops. Lock in PF

3) raise lever and let water in for 10seconds

4) lower lever a bit

5) raise lever again for 10seconds

6) lower lever with about 10kg of force, for 40s~ to extract the coffee


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## Luverdark (Jan 18, 2021)

Also I should note that I'm a complete beginner with espresso, and some people called me crazy for choosing this for my first espresso machine.

I do have experience drinking espresso at cafes and I have cupped this coffee so I know it's not supposed to be this acidic.

Also here is a link to a photo of some grinds with my grinder.

my grinder is currently at 2.3 , so somewhere in between 2 and 3.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XWYgSDwfJbSbRV5C7


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Yes. You can raise and lower the lever freely to work air out of the group and pump water in without disturbing the puck so long as you don't lower it past the inlet points which you'll have a good idea of where they are since you already raise the lever to that point before locking the pf in. I used to use about 13-15kg force that I trained myself to pull using a hanging luggage scale. 😆

The grind finer if it's sour stuff is fine up to a point but you start taking your extraction backwards if you go too fine. If your pull is taking 60 seconds with about 10kg force then it's likely too fine. You can increase flow rate by starting off the pull at a very low pressure before gradually increasing pressure to max over a few seconds, or you can gorilla down on it (not recommended but it wouldn't choke the machine unless you start off the pull at that pressure). Basically a lower pressure start will increase flow rate overall and decrease the max pressure you can pull at, a higher pressure start will decrease flow rate and make the shot harder to pull. But mainly the way to get a higher flow rate is a coarser grind.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Luverdark said:


> Also I should note that I'm a complete beginner with espresso, and some people called me crazy for choosing this for my first espresso machine.


 It was my first proper machine too. Absolutely no regrets, good memories. Still have one in pieces I mean to put back together.


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## Luverdark (Jan 18, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> Yes. You can raise and lower the lever freely to work air out of the group and pump water in without disturbing the puck so long as you don't lower it past the inlet points which you'll have a good idea of where they are since you already raise the lever to that point before locking the pf in. I used to use about 13-15kg force that I trained myself to pull using a hanging luggage scale. 😆
> 
> The grind finer if it's sour stuff is fine up to a point but you start taking your extraction backwards if you go too fine. If your pull is taking 60 seconds with about 10kg force then it's likely too fine. You can increase flow rate by starting off the pull at a very low pressure before gradually increasing pressure to max over a few seconds, or you can gorilla down on it (not recommended but it wouldn't choke the machine unless you start off the pull at that pressure). Basically a lower pressure start will increase flow rate overall and decrease the max pressure you can pull at, a higher pressure start will decrease flow rate and make the shot harder to pull. But mainly the way to get a higher flow rate is a coarser grind.


 Going to try a coarser grind tomorrow and report back. Based on the image (I know its hard to tell), do you think around a 3 on my kinu?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

No idea about that, sorry. Can't hurt to try.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

If you're a total beginner I'm going to check. Is the Portafilter hot? If you can comfortably sit the spouts in your hand when it's off the machine it's likely too cold. One of my frustrations with my lapav (and I don't have many, it's so easy generally) is that the LCD temp strips can say it's hot, but the is barely lukewarm inside. I now always check, flush a little water through and come back. You can also sit it in some boiling water for a bit. My first shot is often a little sour as I'm impatient. 🤣. If you're heating from cold every time that could be it.

And as others have said, if it's too fine to easily pull you can end up sour as it channels through a handy crack in the puck.


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## Luverdark (Jan 18, 2021)

Missy said:


> If you're a total beginner I'm going to check. Is the Portafilter hot? If you can comfortably sit the spouts in your hand when it's off the machine it's likely too cold. One of my frustrations with my lapav (and I don't have many, it's so easy generally) is that the LCD temp strips can say it's hot, but the is barely lukewarm inside. I now always check, flush a little water through and come back. You can also sit it in some boiling water for a bit. My first shot is often a little sour as I'm impatient. 🤣. If you're heating from cold every time that could be it.
> 
> And as others have said, if it's too fine to easily pull you can end up sour as it channels through a handy crack in the puck.


 I dont preheat the portafilter if thats what you mean.

I will try the water out of the GH onto my hand today, my strips show the GH around 90-95C so I assume the water is hot... ill check though. I believe my temp stripes are 'liquid crystal'

I do tend to heat from cold, but I preheat the GH with a few flushes of water coming out. I also dont see any channelling on my bottomless PF. it's very odd.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Luverdark said:


> I dont preheat the portafilter if thats what you mean.


 Bingo. I bet this is your problem. If you flush the group, leave the PF locked in. It's important to heat the PF, otherwise it will cool the group and the coffee on the way out.


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## Luverdark (Jan 18, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Bingo. I bet this is your problem. If you flush the group, leave the PF locked in. It's important to heat the PF, otherwise it will cool the group and the coffee on the way out.


 As soon as I heard that notification sound, I read this and went to pull a shot.

This was the nicest shot i've had. It's so pleasant to drink and not acidic at all.

This is solved I think, my first good espresso after 8 days and 600 grams of beans.

So excited! Thanks all


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## Mulligrub (Jun 24, 2020)

Some very useful information gained reading through this thread. I own a Gaggia 105 which is very similar to the La Pavoni, overall I am enjoying the "Lever" experience very much. I have also experienced varying espresso quality.

I hope to put into practice some of the methods discussed above.

Thanks to all.


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Luverdark said:


> I will try to go coarser tomorrow. Most of the info I could see on the facebook group (and james hoffman), said that if the shot is sour you should either , go finer or lower your dose.
> 
> 2)
> 
> ...


 These are simple machines that require a simple process to make decent shots.

Forget all the song and dance of lifting the lever to a certain level, then putting in the PF trying the Felini method and so on. All these will do is frustrate you and result in crap coffee.

Most of your process is good.

12.5g of coffee seems low to me on a new mil. I dose 13.5-14 on a pre mil but this may depend on your basket. If you want a greater output don't use the Felini method just reduce your dose down to say 12g giving more space in the group for water and if you want less output increase your dose. With these machines I find a 2.5 ratio is as far as you can stretch it.

Dont worry on how long it takes to extract, go by taste. My espressos usually take between 45-55 seconds after a 10 second preinfuse but this can vary depending on the coffee.

The temperature strips are just a guide. They tell you the temperature of the group not the water coming out. If the strip says 90 the water is boiling so the group will cool it and it may come out at 95. Its guesswork but again go by taste.

Keeping the method as simple as possible means you have less variables to deal with. Once you get the hang of it the only thing that should need adjusting is your grind setting. I think it took me best part of a kilo of coffee before I made a drinkable shot.


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## Valkyrie88 (May 3, 2020)

Agree with @Mulligrub some really helpful info on this thread. I found keeping my overall shot time in the 35-40 sec ballpark (inc preinfusion) made my col/braz espresso blend more palatable.


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