# Messing with my Verona (water debit (jets), brew pressure, Blu-Tack, lube)



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

So I've been off work for the last couple of days with a bad case of Man-Flu (which is extremely rare for me). Due to lack of sleep and aching body this has rendered me exactly useless in the morning but clearing up slightly in the afternoon. This combined with the Mrs being at work has left me with some significant and long overdue "tinkering time". So what have I been up to?

*Water Debit*

Since first using my Verona I have always thought that the flow rate from the group looked a little quick when compared to other setups/videos etc.. After some serious googling I found some info (sorry I don't have the sources to hand now) none of this is fact, just opinion and speculation but there was enough info to make me want to test the theory.

1.	Water debit should ideally be around 75ml

2.	WBC coffee machines have smaller flow restrictors/lower water debit than a standard e61 group

3.	Higher water debit can increase the risk of channelling and other nastiness

4.	Higher water debit can increase fines migration as the water hits the puck harder, resulting in a very slow start to the shot and a very quick finish (I might have come up with this one)

I could probably go on but you get the idea.

So, I ordered a bunch of E61 replacement jets from the states and waited, and waited, and waited, they arrived after a month thanks to the highly efficient C&E department, where they sat for two weeks. The new jets are 0.5mm as opposed to the standard E61 which is around 1mm so it's quite a change. I picked up 5 as I thought I may want to bore out a couple to different diameters for testing (it turns at that at this stage this may not have been necessary)

So a couple of nights ago I finally decided to give the new jets a go. Fitting them was easy, remove the large nut from the top of the group and the metal filter that sits inside it. Once they are out the little nut you can see is the jet. A few seconds with a small socket and the old jet was out. Fitting the new jet was slightly trickier, I used the Mrs (apparently very expensive) tweezers to position the new jet and to make the first turn to ensure no thread crossing. A few more turns with the socket and after replacing the filter screen with nut and it was good to go.

Water debit is the amount of water that flows from the group in 10 seconds. So how did the new jet affect the water debit?

Old Jet - 113ml

New Jet - 76ml

Quite a difference, I was worried that the 0.5mm jet was going to be far too small (especially after seeing it for the first time) but I went with it and it turns out that it's pretty much bang on what the Internet says is correct.

Since fitting it I've certainly noticed that I'm getting better extractions, they flow in a more controlled way and they look more pleasing on the eye. Of course all of this is useless if they taste like crap!

Well I'm happy to report that there have been a number of improvements in the cup too. Firstly the mouthfeel is better, thicker, smoother and I like that. I'm also guessing that I'm now getting a higher extraction yield as I'm getting more dark red fruits coming through and the acidity is much more balanced with the rest of the shot.

So far there are no downsides that I can come up with and I'm confident that I'm going to stick with it exactly how it is at 0.5mm.

If people are interested then I could do a video of the before/after flow rates.

*Brew pressure*

I've always wanted to experiment with brew pressure, partly due to the high flow rates mentioned above and partly due to reading up on various machines that use pressure profiling (Slayer etc.) or have it inherent in the design (Londinium L1 etc..).

I first started with some pre-infusion tests using boiler pressure only as I'm not plumbed in. It's worth saying that all of these tests were done before I swapped the jet. I was finding that around 4-5 seconds of holding the lever in the middle position gave good results with my setup. It helped even out the flow rate of the extraction and brought out some of the flavours that I'd been missing. I did find that the results were quite variable and it wasn't an exact science so decided to knock that on the head for now. I think that maybe if you were plumbed in on a consistent line pressure then the middle position would be much more useful.

In a lame attempt to try and emulate a slayer pressure profile I found on their website I messed with things like kicking the pump in and out at the start for the shot to try and achieve lower pressures before hitting the puck full on. Again it was so hard to maintain a consistent technique (not to mentioned a massive ballache) that I decided to give up on this as well.

Something that I could affect and maintain was the static brew pressure so I grabbed a screwdriver and started playing with the OPV. The results were not that interesting and I tried 6bar (after watching an L1 pressure ramp video) and 8bar (after watching a different L1 pressure ramp video). The results were a little surprising. At 8bar things were good and it improved both flavour and mouthfeel, very nice indeed. At 6bar the extraction hardly worked at all there were dead spots everywhere and it seemed to be blonding right from the start. I stuck it back to 8bar and reaped the rewards.

After fitting the 0.5mm jet I decided to try 8bar vs 9bar just because. I'm glad that I did because with the new jet and the OPV set to 9bar the espresso is just awesome. Today with these settings and some challenging beans, I can say that I've had some of the best shots that I've ever personally made and I'm really happy with my setup right now.

*Cam Lube*

Whilst I had the screwdrivers out and following a PM from fellow Verona owner El carajillo I decided to check the cam out and give it some love. I followed a video on YouTube (





) which showed step by step how to dismantle this part of the group and made the process painless. When I got to the cam I was surprised at how much it had worn down and I gave that parts a good lube as per the video and put it back together. Based on how much my Verona has worn down in less than a year and how easy it is, I would highly recommend that anyone with an E61 does this every few months or after they perform a chemical backflush, I certainly will be from now on!

*Blu-Tack*

There are a couple of parts on the Verona that can rattle when the pump is running. It's been annoying me for ages so I decided to fix it. This one was simple. The parts in question were the drip tray lid and the top case cover of the machine. The fix was to take some small pieces of Blu-Tack and re-enforce the pre-existing foam padding. The Blu-Tack gives extra padding and also keeps the parts from moving so that they never come into contact with any other parts. A simple but easy fix









Some will no doubt think why mess with all of this stuff. But I love it! The way I see it is that the 'rules' for espresso were created a while back and were designed around darker roasted beans which may not be as relevant with today's lighter roasted speciality coffee. I do this because I want to get the best espresso I can with the equipment that I have and it interests me greatly.

Thanks for reading my ramblings and I'm sure that most of the information in this post is old hat to most on this forum, but maybe it will be of use to some.

Cheers

Spence


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Pics of Jets

Old Jet in group










New Jet vs Old Jet


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Interesting reading









How do you measure water debit?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Interesting reading
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I measured water flow into a measuring jug over 30 seconds and divided the result by 3 to get the 10 second result as my measuring jugs are not so accurate.

Old Jet










New Jet


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Thanks Spence I shall have to try this myself. I agree the flow rate through the original jet appears far too much and too fierce.


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## ft100 (Mar 9, 2014)

Great bit of info - just got the Verona so will definitely add this to me to do list once I have a better feel for it


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

The jet mod is so easy to do and costs next to nothing to do. If you don't like it then you revert the mod and you've lost about $1.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Is this something that affects most e61s or just the Verona? Ideal flow then is about 75ml in 10 secs? Need to test this in the morning


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

These stats for rotary pumps that ramp up to 9bar quicker than vib pumps?


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

For any Duetto owners wondering about this - I measured my water debit a couple of days ago (after chatting to Spence at the Brum day) and it was even higher than the Verona at approx 130ml in 10 seconds. I'm also contemplating this mod as I've always thought the flow rate is pretty high. My only concern would be if I wasn't using fairly soft water as that small an aperture could easily block with scale.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I got about 92ml out in 10 secs there


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Is this something that affects most e61s or just the Verona? Ideal flow then is about 75ml in 10 secs? Need to test this in the morning


Depends on pump speed and the jets that are installed. From what I've read the jet size can vary quite a lot even on the same model. They're potentially not seen as a high precision part by the manufacturer and thus tolerances may vary.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

glevum said:


> These stats for rotary pumps that ramp up to 9bar quicker than vib pumps?


Mine is a rotary. The figure, as stated was the one that kept coming up when searching the Internet. They are not necessarily correct for any machine. I guess I'm just using the rule of crowds or whatever is called.

I think that the issue could be less prevalent in a vibe pump because as you say the pressure ramp is slower.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

lookseehear said:


> For any Duetto owners wondering about this - I measured my water debit a couple of days ago (after chatting to Spence at the Brum day) and it was even higher than the Verona at approx 130ml in 10 seconds. I'm also contemplating this mod as I've always thought the flow rate is pretty high. My only concern would be if I wasn't using fairly soft water as that small an aperture could easily block with scale.


That's a good point for sure. The water is pretty good around here and I use low tds bottled water most of the time anyway.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> I got about 92ml out in 10 secs there


No too bad. If fact it was Gary's Brewtus as well as my poor technique at the time that started me looking into this.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

If anyone is interested in trying this then I'd be happy to lend them one of my spare jets for a week so that they can test with no outlay. I have already promised a couple to the first members I spoke to about this so I don't any more to give away permanently I'm afraid.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Sage with zero preinfusion 10 seconds = 3 fluid oz. 75ml ish


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

My Bezzera with vib - 80ml in 10secs


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Sage with zero preinfusion 10 seconds = 3 fluid oz. 75ml ish


Well it would be wouldn't it! Lol


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

glevum said:


> My Bezzera with vib - 80ml in 10secs


Sounds pretty much bang on!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Xpenno said:


> Well it would be wouldn't it! Lol


These cheapo plastic appliances hey!


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

lookseehear said:


> For any Duetto owners wondering about this - I measured my water debit a couple of days ago (after chatting to Spence at the Brum day) and it was even higher than the Verona at approx 130ml in 10 seconds. I'm also contemplating this mod as I've always thought the flow rate is pretty high. My only concern would be if I wasn't using fairly soft water as that small an aperture could easily block with scale.


The actual difference in jet size is minimal, I am sure the scale possibility would be a negligible change.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

lookseehear said:


> For any Duetto owners wondering about this - I measured my water debit a couple of days ago (after chatting to Spence at the Brum day) and it was even higher than the Verona at approx 130ml in 10 seconds. I'm also contemplating this mod as I've always thought the flow rate is pretty high. My only concern would be if I wasn't using fairly soft water as that small an aperture could easily block with scale.


If you're worried about scale on this part specifically then it would only take a couple of seconds to whip off the top nut and add some citric acid directly into the top of the group, leave it an hour or so and then flush through. Sorted.


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## CallumT (Aug 23, 2013)

Really surprised to hear that the Verona is without a jet restrictor; flow restriction plays a crucial role in aiding a softer pre wetting and pre infusion of the puck.

Restrictors also allow for soft ramping of the pressure of the water the puck 'sees'.

I wouldn't worry about scale build up, just keep on top of quality of input and how much you've effectively boiled.

Maybe see if you can mod and fit one of the ruby la marzocco flow jets?

Just saw this thread in the timeline and hopped on it, so I might just be re iterating previous posts; if so my apologies


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

CallumT said:


> Really surprised to hear that the Verona is without a jet restrictor; flow restriction plays a crucial role in aiding a softer pre wetting and pre infusion of the puck.
> 
> Restrictors also allow for soft ramping of the pressure of the water the puck 'sees'.
> 
> ...


No worries mate, it did have one, it was just bigger than I'd expected. Fitted a smaller one and all seems ok now


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## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

Interesting info, thanks Xpenno.


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## GS11 (Feb 20, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> *Cam Lube*
> 
> Whilst I had the screwdrivers out and following a PM from fellow Verona owner El carajillo I decided to check the cam out and give it some love. I followed a video on YouTube (


Agreed the chemical backflush dissolves the lube.

After realising this I have changed my chemical backflush procedure from weekly to once monthly followed by lube.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Spence - clear your PMs down, trying to reply to you and your box is full - as I'm just pushing the button now...


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

**** I've just bought a few of these 0.5mm E61 gicleurs, one or two for me - but also a few extra to try and help everyone that seems quite interested in changing down to 0.5mm on the E61 ****

They're cheap to buy - relatively - but shipping costs (from EspressoParts in the US, who seem to be the only supplier) are {expletive} crazy, so I've bought a few to try and get some economies of scale.

Although I've only just ordered them, and they're on a "Fedex Priority" delivery, it could take a while to get them here... based on Xpenno's experience... but please PM me if you're interested in one (or two) and I'll add you to a preorder list.

*E61 - Gicleur 0.5mm : I reckon they're going to come in at about £5 each (though I might be taking a bit of a hit at that) plus the cost of a jiffy bag and Royal Mail shipping per order.*

I'll start a thread in "For Sale" once I get them, whenever that is, and confirm unit costs once I know the fully landed cost (as I'm sure to be hit for VAT and import duty and god-knows what).

So - PM me to be added to pre-order list and I'll keep you posted.

Shades


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

GS11 said:


> Agreed the chemical backflush dissolves the lube.
> 
> After realising this I have changed my chemical backflush procedure from weekly to once monthly followed by lube.


Same here, plus with my IMS screen there is a lot less crud that gets back there it's just the oils now.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

My small collection of 0.5mm E61 gicleurs has now arrived from the US (only 6 days door-to-door Spence!). I've swapped mine, in the Duetto, already (5 min job) and taken a few photos along the way if anyone wants help (but it really is very simple - 22mm socket and 7mm socket as well as a pair of tweezers come in useful!).

After my initial shock at the postage costs from Espresso Parts, coupled with the fact that I bought every 0.5mm gicleur that Espresso Parts had in stock at the time (not that many!) - the price has dropped to about £2 a piece plus postage. I reckon they'll sellotape to a piece of card and pop in a sturdy envelope quite easily - but will still be a Large Letter (90p) due to the 7mm width of the gicleur.

So - £2 a piece plus £1 p&p to the UK.

I'll put a post in For Sale along these lines ( http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?15236-E61-0-5mm-gicleur-%A32-each )

Shades


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## doctorjames (Oct 11, 2011)

MrShades said:


> I've swapped mine, in the Duetto, already


So now it's a couple of years since you performed this modification, what are your thoughts now on the effect on the coffee produced by the Duetto? Did you also lower the pump pressure as is currently en vogue?


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

I'm still enjoying it with the 0.5mm gicleur - no change at l either in my machine or the gicleur.. If it ain't broke then don't fix it!

I have a Classic that is heavily modified and I can pressure profile on it - so if as and when I want to play with 2 bar infusions for 10 seconds followed by a slow ramp to 6 bar then I use the Classic. The Duetto is still on the factory 9 bar and I enjoy the result, and as its my "go to" machine I just prefer to keep it simple. Anyway trying to constantly change the pressure on the Duetto would be a task in itself!


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## doctorjames (Oct 11, 2011)

MrShades said:


> I'm still enjoying it with the 0.5mm gicleur - no change at l either in my machine or the gicleur.. If it ain't broke then don't fix it!
> 
> I have a Classic that is heavily modified and I can pressure profile on it - so if as and when I want to play with 2 bar infusions for 10 seconds followed by a slow ramp to 6 bar then I use the Classic. The Duetto is still on the factory 9 bar and I enjoy the result, and as its my "go to" machine I just prefer to keep it simple. Anyway trying to constantly change the pressure on the Duetto would be a task in itself!


Sounds good then, and it makes a change for a coffee machine related mod to not cost a fortune or take endless fiddling. It would be easy enough to adjust the pump bypass down to 6 bar as advocated by a few people like Perger et al, but yes, continuously adjusting it might be more of an engineering challenge - that's an Arduino + stepper motor project for someone keen!


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## jrling (Feb 10, 2020)

I know that it is 5 years since Xpenno started this very helpful post, but the issues he highlighted are generic and still apply to all E61 group head machines. I thought that I would share my results.

I have owned an ECM Giotto Classic since new in 2006. It has been very reliable and only required an ULKA pump, three-way solenoid replacements and the usual maintenance of temps and pressure adjustment.

BUT I never felt I was getting the best espresso results. Harsh & acidic would be the overriding faults.

OP's post though was the answer. My ULKA vibe pump was set to 9 bar and the original gliceur (jet) looks like it is a little less than 1.0mm from factory - c.0.8mm. This was hitting the puck too hard, whatever grind or tamp. I fitted a pressure gauge into the E61 group head, which is essential. 9 bar pressure was recorded. But I could see the E61 pre-infusion phase only lasted 2 seconds before a steep ramp-up to 9 bar.

I replaced it with a 0.5mm gliceur from theexpressoshop.co.uk @ 60p plus postage! Fitted in no time.

I also measured water debit before and after the 0.5mm gliceur was fitted. 95ml per 10 seconds dropped to 45ml.

Now the pre-infusion was gently building to 2 bar followed by about 5 seconds at 6 bar before rising to 8-9 bar for the rest of the shot. No hands! An automatic profile controlled by the 0.5mm gliceur in effect.

Flavour was enhanced very noticeably and for the better. Harshness and bitterness from a dark roast were gone and lovely creamy taste.

Result! Highly recommended to anyone not happy with their E61 group head pressure profile.


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