# Could this machine challege the Cherubs supremacy?



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Here is a little machine I have had half an eye on for ages now. I need to buy something for my office and am considering this. There is an in depth review in the second link. priced at £659 and supplied by the ever dependable Bellabarista

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-machines/internal-water-tank/expobar-office-pulser-coffee-machine.html

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/downloads/dl/file/id/4/expobar_pulsar_closer_look.pdf

What do you think? And this is NOT a go at Cherub owners.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Expo do a programmable dosage model called office control as well


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

It certainly doesn't challenge the Cherub on looks (not for my taste anyway).









Steve.


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

I'll tell you what though, that's a jolly thorough review that BB give it.

Steve.


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Pretty sure a member on here called RobD has one of these and he was very helpful when I was working on my Leva Dual boiler since he's an engineer and likes to tinker. May be worth PMing him for his thoughts.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Its looks wont win any awards but I suspect it pulls a good shot


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Surely you can get a cherub for a very similar price now-a-days.

I think this expo is a dragon meaning brew water comes straight from the boiler rather than from the thermosyphon. The cherub draws brew water from both hot and cold circuits of siphon circuit at the optimum temperature. Expo would need cooling flushes is what that all boils down to.

Fracino see cooling flushes as a failure of design. Why not a Piccino for the office? Great little machine and the v2.0 solves the issues that stopped me from buying one. Boiler element indicator to allow for temp surfing.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The reason I posted this, is purely that their ought to be a choice of machines at the £700 level, and the truth is there are not that many. fracino (love them or hate them) are very well represented on this forum. It would be nice to be able to put one alongside its competitors, and give them a trial run out. Perhaps once the grind offs have finished, it could be possible to organise a similar event for tank fed machines whereby ,members bring their own espresso machine along, and get the chance to prepare range of drinks a la wbc style competition.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Anything involving a cooling flush regime would do my head in, its one reason why I went away from the Gaggia classic in the first place


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

well its no looker thats for sure, in fact its quite amazingly ugly









only a 1200w element and a pretty small boiler mean that steam power and recovery will be limited. Its a great offering and a great way for people to have choice, but IMHO its not anywhere near the usability of a Cherub (at least not on paper)


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

You can almost get an e61 HX for that with the ISOMAC ZAFFIRO which also looks alot better at 699£

http://www.myespresso.co.uk/product.php/44/isomac-zaffiro-semi-automatic-espresso-machine


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

garydyke1 said:


> Anything involving a cooling flush regime would do my head in, its one reason why I went away from the Gaggia classic in the first place


I wouldn't mind if the machine was plumbed but 200ml+ cooling flushes using bottled water isn't for me!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

An interesting point, for me anyway, is that the chap who reviewed this, is allowed to say anything he wants, and BB print it word for word. He regularly refuses to review machines if they do not appeal, or he has knowledge or bias. He has refused to review the fracino range, and I know for a fact he owns a Heavenly amongst his kit.

He states quite clearly that he expected the machine to be a duffer, and was quite surprised. there is nothing in it for him, to praise a machine if it is not worthy.

Looks......if we all thought the same things were good looking, then life would be dull. it may not be a looker, but there again, is the Cherub? I supposed it depends what you are measuring it against. Steam power........how many Cherub owners or domestic owners in general, on a regular basis make two cups or more? It will cope very well with that I am sure. So, it maybe worth a second look as an alternative. I understand the HX flushing shot argument as I own an HX but to me, it is just the ritual of pulling a shot. you could say, that unless your machine is plumbed in with a plumbed drip tray, then it must be naff, but how many people can boast both of those?

It would be interesting to put these two up against each other, as I believe the only thing that really counts, is what you drink!


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Personally I think my Cherub is a bit of a looker with my custom blue paint job










Would be interesting to go side by side if you had that opportunity. What about a work grinder lol!


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

TBH, the Cherub is a lot better looking no doubt and on paper looks a lot better as well, just one question! why did fracino not use stainless steel toggle switches instead of plastic ones?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Let us take this a stage further.......Accross the board, I pretty much guess we own the machine that we can afford. So, suppose you have a mid price machine, say under £800. you are burgled and when the insurance company pay out, them kae a mistake and allocate £1500 to replace your coffee machine. Do you replace it with the same one, do your research again and buy something within the same price bracket and pocket the difference or spend the whole lot on another?

I guess the underlying question is all about personal aspirations.

I know roughly how many of these plus the Quickmill which is a similar price point BB sell a month, so does that make those people misguided for not buying a Cherub then, and if they had been forum members, would they have benefited from the advice which would have been given, which would be to but a Cherub?


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I certainly wouldn't replace my cherub with most of the £1000ish HX machines from the likes of rocket etc, they don't offer anything extra.

If I was to upgrade, it would maybe be to a dual boiler PID model like an R58


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

Could have sworn this same subject came up before recently?

Nice paint job fatboyslim, love that colour. Is it 'factory' or did you get it done elsewhere?



glevum said:


> You can almost get an e61 HX for that with the ISOMAC ZAFFIRO which also looks alot better at 699£


Isn't the zaffiro a single boiler, glevum? It used to be, anyway.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I'd get a cherub, sell my SJ and buy a compak k10









You can choose colour options from Fracino on both Cherub and Piccino.

I think he is referring to the Isomac Tea which is a heat exchanger.


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## lukeap69 (Apr 23, 2013)

Thanks for this thread, I learned that not all HX machines were created equal. I thought all of them require cold flushing. Will read more before I decide to purchase my first HX machine.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

"I certainly wouldn't replace my cherub with most of the £1000ish HX machines from the likes of rocket etc, they don't offer anything extra".

apart from a much better looking machine

"I'd get a cherub, sell my SJ and buy a compak k10"

I would sell the SJ for £300 buy a second hand K10 for £200 and get a Londinium........


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Do I ask awkward questions? I am trying to stimulate thought and debate!

Do Cherubs really have that much of a hold on their owners!!


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> "I certainly wouldn't replace my cherub with most of the £1000ish HX machines from the likes of rocket etc, they don't offer anything extra".
> 
> apart from a much better looking machine
> 
> ...


I don't see the rockets as being much better looking to be honest. Too much is the same to make enough of a difference. And a londinium has too much cherub DNA for my liking.

Now... A gs3







that's different


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I just love that its made in the UK using quality components that are mostly made by hand and is significantly cheaper than any Italian or Spanish equivalent.

Its like the Spitfire of espresso machines.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

shrink said:


> I don't see the rockets as being much better looking to be honest. Too much is the same to make enough of a difference.


It's all in the eye of the beholder again - but the big plus of the Rocket for me is the 'proper' lever activated E-61 which I'd take over a push-button all day long. But that is probably down to me coming up to one from a Pavoni, and wanting some hands-on lever to play with. Plus - for me - if you line up a load of HXs, the Rocket (or ECA) is the one that stands out in the looks/finish stakes. Sure, there are better machines, but at the end of the day it's down to personal preference.


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

fatboyslim said:


> Its like the Spitfire of espresso machines.


Heh, perhaps more like the Typhoon: mostly British, but with a bit of Spanish and a bit of Italian (not sure if it contains anything German, though ...)


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

"I don't see the rockets as being much better looking to be honest. Too much is the same to make enough of a difference. And a londinium has too much cherub DNA for my liking.

Now... A gs3 that's different "

but you love your cherub!!! and no way you will get a gs3 for that, so how about sell the sj for £300 buy a used eureka mythos for £500 and a Bosco for £800 and go on holiday with the £500 change...


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## Walter Sobchak (Nov 29, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Let us take this a stage further.......Accross the board, I pretty much guess we own the machine that we can afford. So, suppose you have a mid price machine, say under £800. you are burgled and when the insurance company pay out, them kae a mistake and allocate £1500 to replace your coffee machine. Do you replace it with the same one, do your research again and buy something within the same price bracket and pocket the difference or spend the whole lot on another?
> 
> I guess the underlying question is all about personal aspirations.
> 
> I know roughly how many of these plus the Quickmill which is a similar price point BB sell a month, so does that make those people misguided for not buying a Cherub then, and if they had been forum members, would they have benefited from the advice which would have been given, which would be to but a Cherub?


We're all honest here aren't we? So we would return the extra cash back to the insurance company.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

LM Linea 1 group please . I don't ask for much.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Walter, you make an excellent point but that takes us down a different route and set of ethics! In fantasy land, you can do anything you like!


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Fatboyslim.......brilliant.....The Fracino Spitfire....what a name.....who wants a cherub when you can have a spitfire or hurricane.


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> LM Linea 1 group please . I don't ask for much.


That is one cool looking machine







I didn't know they did a single group version. I never liked the look of the gs3 but this could be my new dream machine


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I agree, except I would go a stage further and drop the fracino as well. It is a bit of a dated business model now, pretending to be a British built italian coffee machine! How about something more British?

Suggestions.......?


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

Back to cherub alternatives Elektra micro casa?


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Whatever you choose, I want to come and work in your office







I'm still stuck with a bunch of people who think that Nescafé gold blend is the bomb


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I agree, except I would go a stage further and drop the fracino as well. It is a bit of a dated business model now, pretending to be a British built italian coffee machine! How about something more British?
> 
> Suggestions.......?


I have this image/nightmare of a generic espresso machine being dreamt up and manufactured by British Leyland in the God awful days of the 1970s - something very unsophisticated and branded under BL's umbrella marques. The machine would overheat, be unreliable, leak, be hopelessly behind the competition and over-priced. The upmarket Vanden Plas model would have lots of chrome and wood panelling and be called 'the Blenheim' and aimed at the huntin' and shootin' fraternity. Then we would have something from the Riley or Wolsely stable - not quite so upmarket. Their offering would have innovative bakelite knobs and come in a two tone paint job and appeal to the golfing brigade - and called, appropriately, 'the Wentworth'. Finally, there would be the offering from Morris/Austin stable aimed at the mass market. This model would be clothed in beige vinyl which would begin to peel the moment you got it home. It would be called the Morrris Ital having been styled by Pinninfarina in Italy but still looking hideously out of date having been based on a pre-war Morris Minor. Innovative features of the Morris Ital would be the ergonomic quartic oversize wheels controlling the steam and hot water taps. The pressure stat gauge wouldn't work or be wired up in reverse. The Morris Ital would be aimed at the thrusting dynamic buyer as typified by the commercial traveller.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Takes me back in time Patrick! The youth of today will wonder what you are going on about of course! Similarly, when I tell the old one that Roddy llewellyn has a job at British Leylands Paint Shop, touching up old Princess's, they will scratch their heads!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Takes me back in time Patrick! The youth of today will wonder what you are going on about of course! Similarly, when I tell the old one that Roddy llewellyn has a job at British Leylands Paint Shop, touching up old Princess's, they will scratch their heads!


Priceless! Reminds me of Lady Docker. Nostalgia certainly isn't what it used to be.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

having had the cherub a while now, i do like it indeed, but thats not to say theres not things I wouldnt change.

1) the drip tray is still rubbish. Its more than big enough now, but its too short, and as such water tends to roll over the edge when flushing the group. Not helped by the rather spazzy designed tray cover, which has too much metal between holes.

2) i had to change the water wand to one I found useful and liked the look of.

3) the pump is noisy (not as noisy as a gaggia classic for example, but noisy enough) i'd love a machine with a rotary.

4) the water level sensor doesnt work well with the new filter system.

if i upgraded, it would be to a dual boiler, PID, rocket, which would likely solve all of the above issues.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

dfk41 said:


> Takes me back in time Patrick! The youth of today will wonder what you are going on about of course! Similarly, when I tell the old one that Roddy llewellyn has a job at British Leylands Paint Shop, touching up old Princess's, they will scratch their heads!


Takes me back, too - and in my time I had a few of the monstrosities mentioned!

There's been a very important omission, though. All the knobs would have to be slightly square, in homage to the Allegro's steering wheel. And I always thought that Mr llewellyn worked on the assembly line, putting the big ends into Princesses!


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

as a 7 year old boy I remember my fathers brand new 1978 tan princess 2.2l. A beast of a car, even after 6 months old he had to cover the engine in damp start spray, he was glad to see the back of it for a vauxhall chevette


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

vintagecigarman said:


> Takes me back, too - and in my time I had a few of the monstrosities mentioned!
> 
> There's been a very important omission, though. All the knobs would have to be slightly square, in homage to the Allegro's steering wheel. And I always thought that Mr llewellyn worked on the assembly line, putting the big ends into Princesses!


Bang on Vintagecigarman - the All-Aggro's squared off steering wheel was called the 'quartic steering wheel' by the marketing boys - 'an ergonomic innovation' they said in the brochure - trying to draw attention away from the All-Aggro's woeful build quality and pre-war engineering. The quartic steering wheel was dropped very quickly as All-Aggro drivers hated it.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

There's a wonderful little book called 'My Dad Had One of Those' with pictures of all the good old British monstrosities. The only trouble is - I have actually owned many of them myself! Never had an Allegro - but I had a three-year-old Marina TC. Over the course of the year that I owned it I replaced every single suspension component and eventually sold it in desperation - to someone who ran it happily(!) for another 5+ years.

In contrast I then ran a succession of five 2CVs over a few years and did over 120k in them without a single breakdown.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

vintagecigarman said:


> In contrast I then ran a succession of five 2CVs over a few years and did over 120k in them without a single breakdown.


One of the design parameters for the 2CV was that it had to be able to drive across a ploughed field without breaking a tray of eggs on the passenger seat. They don't make them like that anymore.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

glevum said:


> as a 7 year old boy I remember my fathers brand new 1978 tan princess 2.2l. A beast of a car, even after 6 months old he had to cover the engine in damp start spray, he was glad to see the back of it for a vauxhall chevette


The Austin Princess was supposed to revive BL's terminal decline in the '70s. What a joke. It chewed through constant velocity joints due to appalling engineers design. The wedge shape was incorporated on to the ghastly Triumph TR7. Recall Stuart Hall driving one...nuff said. Such was the visceral dislike amongst the varying marques that made up BL, MG were starved off development funds with the bulk going to Triumph. MG were consigned to rummaging around the parts bin to tart up ageing models. Despite this, MG still out sold Triumph sports car offerings.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Here's another thing and then I'll shut up! When BMC (forerunner of British Leyland) brought out the mini in 1959 - Ford acquired one and took it to bits and came to the conclusion BMC were actually making a loss on every mini sold. No wonder we don't have a home grown mass market car manufacturer in the UK now. It was downhill from the end of the second world war.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Back on track then! One thing I intensely dislike about retailing, is the fact that if you decide to do some research and select your product, then why should it cost a lot more at one retailer, who charges exactly the same price as the manufacturer, yet other retailers can knock a couple of hundred quid off.

If you buy an Apple product, with the exception of Amazon sometimes having the odd Apple product at about 10% discount, you know the price you are going to pay. This adds value to your purchase and helps maintain prices and value.

If you accept that a 2 year old coffee machine is worth 50% of its retail value (for arguments sake(, then I suppose it all depends if you buy your Cherub at John Lewis, direct or from a discount online store. But, does the second hand value change accordingly?


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## suferick (Jul 19, 2011)

Cooling flush? There's nothing to it on my Oscar. As I grind the shot I flush into the cup, warming it and cooling the brew water. After locking in the portafilter, empty the cup and pull the shot. As a part of your normal routine it becomes second nature.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Interesting I think that any machine is worth what someone is prepared to pay, what is more interesting is that some sellers can sell these machines at significantly less than others, which means fracino do not fix the price, however this does have that knock on with Resale value as sellers will certainly have different expectations of the value of their own kit. I think this will create unrealistic expectations of sellers that purchase from say john Lewis as they may expect 50 percent of the value , when 50 percent of the £650 cherub is so much less. Ultimately though it will all be driven on what someone is prepared to pay.


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

The Cherub's price has gone up quite significantly this week so only time will tell if people are prepared to pay.......

That said, it is a great machine and people who have bought it for £650 have had a bit of a bargain!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

fatboyslim said:


> Surely you can get a cherub for a very similar price now-a-days.
> 
> I think this expo is a dragon meaning brew water comes straight from the boiler rather than from the thermosyphon. The cherub draws brew water from both hot and cold circuits of siphon circuit at the optimum temperature. Expo would need cooling flushes is what that all boils down to.
> 
> Fracino see cooling flushes as a failure of design. Why not a Piccino for the office? Great little machine and the v2.0 solves the issues that stopped me from buying one. Boiler element indicator to allow for temp surfing.


It's not a dragon and draw water via a thermosyphon loop, if you check the review you can see this from page 8 the photo gallery. Fracino might see cooling flushes as a failure of design, but fortunately for all the HX owners, Fracino are talking bollocks. don't think Fracino are doing anything super special, they have a simple thermosyphon loop as well, however the very large boiler does allow them to run at lower temperatures with acceptable steaming. This is what reduces the cooling flush somewhat.



shrink said:


> well its no looker thats for sure, in fact its quite amazingly ugly
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's got a 1.5 litre copper boiler in an upright configuration and with a 1200W heating element and doesn't have problems with steaming. the only downside really is the lack of a brew pressure or steam pressure gauge. you can fit something onto the steam wand to check the pressure, but it's a shame that they didn't fit a 7 euro gauge at the factory. It is amazingly ugly though.

The Expobar office Leva is a far better machine than the pulser, for only a little more money. So I just want to correct inaccuracies and I am not commenting on the Fracino machines as being better or worse, it all depends on what you want. I do own a Fracino heavenly and it has it's own set of stupid design decisions within it, as most machines do..

Of course there are machines and machines, they're all not bad when you get to the prosumer level.....but some are so much better than others. If it wasn't an emotional decision as well, and people bought with all the knowledge available, we would have a very limited range of machines on the market. I find people tend to buy with their heart and not their head. the reviews attempt to impart information, but sometimes I am not sure they do more than make the converted feel good and the unconvinced feel confused.


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

That's a large increase in price from Fracino (~40%) and will put the machine in competitive territory. As was said, £650 now looked a bargin


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Geordie Boy said:


> That's a large increase in price from Fracino (~40%) and will put the machine in competitive territory. As was said, £650 now looked a bargin


Ouch to that price increase


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

That increase makes them start to look expensive now. In fact at £900 for a Cherub and £945 for a Heavenly when a tank only Brewtus is only £150 or £105 more makes Fracino look a very expensive option, what's brought about such a huge price increase Andy?


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## Yes Row (Jan 23, 2013)

coffeebean said:


> The Cherub's price has gone up quite significantly this week so only time will tell if people are prepared to pay.......
> 
> That said, it is a great machine and people who have bought it for £650 have had a bit of a bargain!


What is the new price?


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Wonder if it will increase resale price of cherubs


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

working dog said:


> Wonder if it will increase resale price of cherubs


If in good knick should do ......


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## Yes Row (Jan 23, 2013)

Yes Row said:


> What is the new price?


Ooops. Sorry did not see earlier posts


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

working dog said:


> Wonder if it will increase resale price of cherubs


Or just stop sales of new ones

That is some hike!


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Agreed - if I was buying now it would bring other machines into consideration


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I have this machine.

Not much more to add to whats been said really, its not a looker, but it can produce a great shot. It takes a little getting used to with the cooling flushes, but that can be said of any HX, my first cup in the morning sometimes goes awry if I'm not concentrating on what I'm doing.

Steam power is good, but limited by the 1-hole tip, I want to at some point experiment with other tips.

The machine is solid and feels like it will last ages, by far its biggest downside is its looks, and although it is a good year or two away I will be lusting after something with more shimmer for my next upgrade.

With regards to the Cherub its definitely a better looking machine, The Pulsar has a slightly smaller footprint I believe so can fit better in some kitchens/offices.


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

I'll be able to do the Cherub for £780 delivered for forum members - not as cheap as it was last week, but will save you a bit on RRP!

Andy


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

flippin eck, the cherub has gone up!

If it had been that price when I bought mine, I'd have spent a little more and got an Expobar.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Cherub used to be a bargain, not do attractive any more!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

The Cherub can be had for £680 on other sites with a less stellar reputation than the sponsors here have. The Piccino is now only £550, making it a much more tempting option than the Cherub now IMO.

If I remember rightly the Piccino used to be a good £100 more than the cherub. I guess the popularity of the machine means Fracino can make a bit more money from it now.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

better watch they don't price themselves into no sales though!

http://www.machina-espresso.co.uk/collections/espresso-machines-500-1000/products/expobar-office-leva-hx

not a huge leap to buy one of those.. which is better finished, better looking and has a much better drip tray!

They also have the Cherub for £729 though!


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

My gawd, I paid £635 new for my Cherub only last May!


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

The Piccino has always been cheaper than the Cherub as it is a domestic machine where the Cherub is a small commercial machine that domestic users buy! I used to sell th Piccino for £550 but can't get it myself for that now. It is selling on my website now for Fracino's RRP of £750 but I will do it for forum members for £650

Andy



D_Evans said:


> The Cherub can be had for £680 on other sites with a less stellar reputation than the sponsors here have. The Piccino is now only £550, making it a much more tempting option than the Cherub now IMO.
> 
> If I remember rightly the Piccino used to be a good £100 more than the cherub. I guess the popularity of the machine means Fracino can make a bit more money from it now.


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