# Extraction meter and preprogrammed drinks om SB touch



## frapjap (Oct 4, 2021)

Hello everyone! 
I've had the Sage Barista Express for around 2 years now and have been happy with it for equally long. For Mill consistency solely though, I've moved on and gotten the Sage Touch. Now, I've got two questions for you guys

1) The greatest thing about the SBE was it's extraction/espresso meter that showed if the shot was under or overextracted - does the touch have anything similar? extraction time and judging coffee flow is not as precise or easy. Not for me atleast

2) I see it has pre-programmed drinks. If the grind size, grind time etc. are exactly the same, what difference does it then make if I choose to make an espresso shot or latte from the main menu?
Thanks!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

frapjap said:


> Hello everyone!
> I've had the Sage Barista Express for around 2 years now and have been happy with it for equally long. For Mill consistency solely though, I've moved on and gotten the Sage Touch. Now, I've got two questions for you guys
> 
> 1) The greatest thing about the SBE was it's extraction/espresso meter that showed if the shot was under or overextracted - does the touch have anything similar? extraction time and judging coffee flow is not as precise or easy. Not for me atleast
> ...


 1. Hate to break this too you but the meter doesn't reflect if a shot is over or under extracted at all. All the "meter" is doing its showing you some form of pressure being reached i think .

2. None


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## frapjap (Oct 4, 2021)

I see. I might be wrong then. Nonetheless it gives an idea of correct extraction, as shown on p11 here https://www.sageappliances.com/content/dam/breville/uk/assets/miscellaneous/instruction-manual/espresso/BES875-instruction-manual.pdf

but I am guessing there is nothing similar on the touch?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

frapjap said:


> I see. I might be wrong then. Nonetheless it gives an idea of correct extraction, as shown on p11 here https://www.sageappliances.com/content/dam/breville/uk/assets/miscellaneous/instruction-manual/espresso/BES875-instruction-manual.pdf
> 
> but I am guessing there is nothing similar on the touch?


 It doesn't measure over or under extraction , it cant, its marketing nonsense . A shot in that zone can be tasty or in tasty but will largely depend in the amount of coffee you have dosed in relation to the amount of coffee it makes * along with a few other variables .

Most machines dont have this meter as the more traditional manufacturers realise it's nonsense

It's there to let the user now that the puck is producing some kind of nominal resistance to the water but that isn't related to correct extraction ( tasty shots can be made form lots of different combinations of variables )

these machines are marketing as plug and play, hit the correct bit of the meter, let the shot stop when it stops , use a razor. They work to a degree but will only get a user so far if they use anything more than a medium -dark roasted coffee .


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## frapjap (Oct 4, 2021)

Okay. Guess it is back to trial and error then. I have had some good shots with blonde roast on the SBE, but using same settings on the touch gives undrinkable espresso. But guess that's the beauty of it, it's well deserved when you finally end up with the correct conditions!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

frapjap said:


> Okay. Guess it is back to trial and error then. I have had some good shots with blonde roast on the SBE, but using same settings on the touch gives undrinkable espresso. But guess that's the beauty of it, it's well deserved when you finally end up with the correct conditions!


 Cheap set of scales and some reading will deliver for more consistent shots than a meter

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/21319-beginners-reading-weighing-espresso-brew-ratios/?do=embed


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## deZoo (Sep 21, 2021)

I have been using scales to measure shot weight against ground coffee weight from my Sage Oracle Touch. Unfortunately the results have been all over the place on my original machine and on the replacement. Sage support tried to talk me into replacing the Touch with the Dynamic Duo because they admitted the replacement Touch might be just as bad. It is.

I have another thread in this section giving more detail - my recommendation is do some testing with scales to make sure your machine isn't as bad as the two I have sat in my kitchen today. Support were infuriating to deal with until they stated that the difference between any two adjacent grind settings should be minimal as there are 45 settings - at that point I was able to prove that my machine was not working as expected because shot weight could double between one grind setting and the next.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

frapjap said:


> Okay. Guess it is back to trial and error then. I have had some good shots with blonde roast on the SBE, but using same settings on the touch gives undrinkable espresso. But guess that's the beauty of it, it's well deserved when you finally end up with the correct conditions!


 Don't think aboutn terms of 'ending up with the correct conditions', think more about making the correct conditions.

Do this by controlling the grind setting, ground dose weight & weight of the beverage in the cup. It will be hard to do this relying on preset shot times.

The correct conditions can vary from coffee to coffee, but they are always assessed by taste.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

deZoo said:


> I have been using scales to measure shot weight against ground coffee weight from my Sage Oracle Touch. Unfortunately the results have been all over the place





deZoo said:


> at that point I was able to prove that my machine was not working as expected because shot weight could double between one grind setting and the next.


 OK, you start off by saying you are "using scales", you then say one shot can weigh twice what the previous shot weighed.

Ideally, you should be using the scales to kill the shot & always end up at your target weight, adjusting grind size to shift the flavour balance.


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## deZoo (Sep 21, 2021)

MWJB said:


> OK, you start off by saying you are "using scales", you then say one shot can weigh twice what the previous shot weighed.
> 
> Ideally, you should be using the scales to kill the shot & always end up at your target weight, adjusting grind size to shift the flavour balance.


 I am using scales to establish the accuracy and consistency of the machine. By setting the volume of coffee and the time to a set value, adjusting the grind setting should have a predictable result as it is the only variable. It doesn't perform as expected which is why I was sent a new machine.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

deZoo said:


> I am using scales to establish the accuracy and consistency of the machine. By setting the volume of coffee and the time to a set value, adjusting the grind setting should have a predictable result as it is the only variable. It doesn't perform as expected which is why I was sent a new machine.


 But your machine doesn't work on volumetrics, or more importantly, gravimetrics. You're not establishing accuracy, you're confirming that the machine is designed in a different way to that which you are expecting.

See if you can manually control the shot weight, so you can use the scales to ensure consistency, rather than prove inconsistency.


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## deZoo (Sep 21, 2021)

MWJB said:


> But your machine doesn't work on volumetrics, or more importantly, gravimetrics. You're not establishing accuracy, you're confirming that the machine is designed in a different way to that which you are expecting.
> 
> See if you can manually control the shot weight, so you can use the scales to ensure consistency, rather than prove inconsistency.


 Your advice is in contradiction to what Sage tell me to do to make a coffee with this machine. The Oracle Touch is automated so that we can make respectable coffee without all the messing about. You should, according to all of their information, be able to simply dial in the grind size and the machine will take care of everything else. That's all I am asking of it - I want to use the automation to make me coffee. Choose a style of coffee, press the button, get the same cup of coffee as the last time I pressed the same button.

Just to be clear - my aim is not to make the best cup of coffee I can from this machine - it is for the machine to function as advertised. And as advertised, if I decrease the grind size then I should get a slower pour and if I increase the grind size I should get a faster pour. That is not the case.

Anyway I didn't intend to hijack this thread, I have my own - my point is that I am having problems with the Touch and Sage agree with me that what I am experiencing is not what should be happening.


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## deZoo (Sep 21, 2021)

frapjap said:


> Hello everyone!
> I've had the Sage Barista Express for around 2 years now and have been happy with it for equally long. For Mill consistency solely though, I've moved on and gotten the Sage Touch. Now, I've got two questions for you guys
> 
> 1) The greatest thing about the SBE was it's extraction/espresso meter that showed if the shot was under or overextracted - does the touch have anything similar? extraction time and judging coffee flow is not as precise or easy. Not for me atleast
> ...


 The video is how they recommend getting the settings right on the Touch.

The programs have settings for water addition, brew time (single - 25sec, double - 30sec, custom/manual) and milk settings -temp/froth. These are preset but you can also create your own drink using custom settings.

You can change everything manually - grind, shot duration, milk settings or if you use the presets then all you really need to do is dial in the grind and the machine does the rest.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

> 14 hours ago, deZoo said:
> 
> Your advice is in contradiction to what Sage tell me to do to make a coffee with this machine. The Oracle Touch is automated so that we can make respectable coffee without all the messing about. You should, according to all of their information, be able to simply dial in the grind size and the machine will take care of everything else. That's all I am asking of it - I want to use the automation to make me coffee. Choose a style of coffee, press the button, get the same cup of coffee as the last time I pressed the same button.
> 
> ...


 It may be how the marketers at Sage say the machine works but there is more espresso than the Oracle can provide >

Yes I owned one btw.

Pour time is impacted by grind size but also my other factors such as dose weight, distribution of grinds in basket, heat of portafiler and basket. As pointed out the machine itself is not volumetric or gravimetric so it cant produce shot after shot all the same extraction time . Even the heat of the beans in the hopper can impact on the time of the shot.

Getting really consistent espresso with no human interaction on a consumer machine is imho not doable.


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## deZoo (Sep 21, 2021)

Mrboots2u said:


> It may be how the marketers at Sage say the machine works but there is more espresso than the Oracle can provide >
> 
> Yes I owned one btw.
> 
> ...


 I am not interested in making it work by overriding the automation - the automation is why I bought it. If I wanted to play with multiple variables in search of the ultimate shot I wouldn't have bought a Touch.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

deZoo said:


> I am not interested in making it work by overriding the automation - the automation is why I bought it. If I wanted to play with multiple variables in search of the ultimate shot I wouldn't have bought a Touch.


 The variables are no more, nor fewer It's just a matter of which of them you control.

Any how, you seem to know what you want, have fun with your machine.


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