# I think I've made a terrible mistake! Sage Dual Boiler!



## Marian

Hello. This is my first real post. I have has the Sage dual boiler since mid-December and although it makes a good cup of coffee, I just can't get on with it. Steaming is great and milk is fantastic but I can't make that silky smooth coffee that I am used to. I had a Bezzera BZ09 and before that a Domobar (I am half German and these are very respected machines in Germany) and I thought the Sage would be a step up but it is not. Yes it has some great features, don't get me wrong but for me that texture or feel in mouth is just not there. Now I feel silly for having wasted my money - especially as I let the Bezzera go for just £500. I know there are many settings and variables on the machine and I am hoping someone will have some settings suggestions for me. Please help. Any suggestions are greatfully received or there may soon be a nearly new Sage for sale in the near future. I hope not! Thank you so much.


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## ronsil

Welcome to the forum.

Why not take a look in the 'grinder/machine' forum on here where you will find the first sticky by member 'garydyke1' who has been doing a lot of work in comparing the Sage with another machine.

You may well find something of interest to you regarding the Sage.

I would not be too quick to give up on it. I think it is quite capable of producing the type of coffee you are seeking.

If in the end if you do decide to sell try offering it in the Forum 'For Sale' section. You may well find a potential buyer there always providing it is priced correctly.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.


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## Charliej

What grinder and beans are you using? I have a Sage for review purposes and I'm getting excellent results from it with very little trouble, I did for starters back down the factory set preinfusion time to 3-4 seconds and also have been varying shot temperatures according to how I find the beans tasting and aging.


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## Mrboots2u

Hi there . One of our forum members Gary **** has been trying the sage versus his brewtus with very favourable results. Might be worth looking at that thread to see what how he has got one . Presuming that you haven't changed grinder or beans drastically between all these machines ?


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## Glenn

Hi Marian

Did you avail yourself of the White Glove Service?

The machine is capable of producing a fine cup of coffee.

Some Home Barista Training may help.

Try resetting to factory defaults and work from there. It is easy to get lost in the settings

Change 1 variable at a time and record the changes


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## garydyke1

Marian said:


> Hello. This is my first real post. I have has the Sage dual boiler since mid-December and although it makes a good cup of coffee, I just can't get on with it. Steaming is great and milk is fantastic but I* can't make that silky smooth coffee that I am used to*. I had a Bezzera BZ09 and before that a Domobar (I am half German and these are very respected machines in Germany) and I thought the Sage would be a step up but it is not. Yes it has some great features, don't get me wrong but for me that texture or feel in mouth is just not there. Now I feel silly for having wasted my money - especially as I let the Bezzera go for just £500. I know there are many settings and variables on the machine and I am hoping someone will have some settings suggestions for me. Please help. Any suggestions are greatfully received or there may soon be a nearly new Sage for sale in the near future. I hope not! Thank you so much.


Can you clarify the issue? Is the foam depth too much/not enough?


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## Marian

Wow, thank you so much for so many replies. It's a very difficult thing to explain. The machine makes nice espresso but I find that it lacks a silky feel on the tongue. I have tried all of my favourite beans and have good but not great results. One of my friends has an Expobar (I think) machine and another has a NS Oscar and they have a beautiful texture more comparative to my old machines. I just find the coffee my Sage is producing lacks texture in mouth. It's a really difficult thing to explain but it's as if the my machine makes a technically perfect cup of coffee but it lacks that depth and texture.

As for everything else it is fine. Frothing is easy, warm up time is about ten minutes which is great (although I tend to leave it longer). It is also fuss free which appealed to me, it really is easy. The other thing you asked is my grinder. We have three grinders (I told you, I've been into coffee for many years) I have a Luigi Mazzer Super Jolly, A Brasilia RR45 and a Bezzera, all of which are more than capable. I also did the white glove service and have spoken to a Sage representative on the telephone.

I hope you are able to point me in the correct direction because I would like a few months of use before going back to an E-61 group. I am missing that retro look in the kitchen already! Or maybe you will help me make coffee to knock my socks off! I am trying very hard to be balanced and not show my disappointment as I do not wish to step on anybody's toes but this is a technological step up from most machines as it does everything for you - it even times your shot but as far as I'm concerned it is a step down (even if only slight) from my Bezzera or Domobar machines in terms of coffee.

Thank you


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## fatboyslim

Try using more coffee in the filter basket, producing a smaller volume of espresso. That is generally how you control body.

Might need a different extraction yield on this machine, compared to what you're used to.


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## Charliej

Have you changed from the default preinfusion and shot temp settings at all? I have found that the preinfusion can have some odd effects on mouthfeel. I was using some of the Has Bean Fazenda Cachoeira Da Grama Yellow Bourbon Pulped Natural and was getting huge mouthfeel from that when using the shot temp of 92 that Gary suggested but I found going up or down a degree or so coupled with longer preinfusion I lost a lot of the mouthfeel. For Clarities sake I must also say here usually mine and Gary's tastes in coffee are poles apart but we both seem to be having a great deal of success with the Sage.

I would also have to say that your statement that it does everything for you is a bit of a misnomer, a bean to cup machine does everything for you, the Sage DB doesn't you still require your core skills as regards grind, distribution and tamping, maybe its something in one of these areas you still need to get right with this machine, particularly given its VST like baskets which are less forgiving of mistakes, I assume you are of course using the single wall baskets, might be worth checking that the "white gloves " guy didn't put a double wall one in instead.


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## aaronb

I hate to say it but I think the Domobar is a better machine. Why did you let it go?


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## Charliej

aaronb said:


> I hate to say it but I think the Domobar is a better machine. Why did you let it go?


 Got experience with both Aaaron? Anyway he said he had a Bezzera BZ09 before the Sage. I wish people with zero experience of the Sage would quit knocking it gary certainly seems to be enjoying having the one he has and I've been enjoying mine.


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## Marian

I'm sorry, that's what I didn't want. The Bezzera was my last machine - I was running the Bezzera and Domobar side by side but sold them when I opted for the Sage. I sold the Domobar about six weeks before the Bezzera. Both machines were wonderful, the Bezzera with a deeper, richer coffee and the Domobar with clearer high notes. I too am wondering why I let them go but I was so sure that the Sage would be better due to it being almost engineered to produce a technically great coffee. Don't get me wrong, it is im possible to make a bad coffee with the Sage but I don't think it reaches the heights of my other machines.

Charlie, I forgive you, but I am actually female! lol! Marian is my real name. I'm glad you're enjoying your machine but in the end if everybody had the same taste, it would be a boring world. I am not "knocking" the machine per-se but I am personally disappointed especially when my friends Oscar is making better textured coffee than mine. I got two friends to bring their machines over to try and calibrate and compare. We had a lovely afternoon testing and tasting and all came to similar conclusions. That's when one friend recommended this site to me and having read through a lot of posts, it is both informative and educational and I think I will enjoy participating very much.

I will phone the White Gloves rep again tomorrow and see if your conclusions are correct but I fear that I have made a very expensive mistake and this may be the time to save my pennies for a R58!

Once again, thanks and no arguing boys!


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## garydyke1

If your texture and mouthfeel issues are with pure espresso - have you tried adjusting the PID / preinfusion settings?

Although the Expobar might win in blind taste tests (most of the time) for pure espresso shots (a little bit gloopier, complexity and sweeter) when it come to milk texture the Sage wins most of the time. So im confused as to why you struggle with texture?

Unless the white gloves rep is a WBC champ I dont think they will hold the key to better success with the Sage


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## garydyke1

aaronb said:


> I hate to say it but I think the Domobar is a better machine. Why did you let it go?


Ive used both and that isn't a statement Id agree with at all mate


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## Marian

I mostly drink espresso so that explains the mouthfeel comments I made. I don't have an Expobar but I believe my friend's machine is an Expobar HX machine and that was one of the three mahines we used for comparison. As I said before, milk is what the Sage does best - not that ot is better but it is easier, it is simple to froth with the Sage. The other machines I have owned were capable of producing the same quality (with the use of thermometers and good technique) but not consistantly. The Sage does it every time and as I also said before, it is simple and quick. However, even with milk, I find it quite flat. Maybe I just have surpressed taste buds or something.

But just to make it perfectly clear, when we did the comparison, we were drinking espresso and weighing input, output as well as timing. We were just trying to work out what I could do to improve my shots and we all came to a similar conclusion. What we were most surprised about was the quality of the Oscar side by side with the other machines. While it wasn't quite as good as the Expobar it was impressive.


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## garydyke1

Ok so its the body of espresso you're not getting to match e61.

I generally find out-of-the-box the e61 to lend itself to a gloopier, sweeter shot versus the Sage, however amending preinfusion settings can compensate to a degree - have you played with those?


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## Marian

garydyke1 said:


> Ok so its the body of espresso you're not getting to match e61.
> 
> I generally find out-of-the-box the e61 to lend itself to a gloopier, sweeter shot versus the Sage, however amending preinfusion settings can compensate to a degree - have you played with those?


Hi. The white gloves rep lives near me and will come round later this afternoon/evening so we'll see whay t he comes up with. I have my friends' machines too so he can understand what I'm getting at although I somehow doubt he will be into coffee as much as me. We shall see. Thanks for your help and suggestions.


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## Marian

So it seems that this machine is just not suitable for my tastes. As I feared, I am never going to get what I want. A shame really but texture is very important for me and the fact that the espresso from the Sage is just not as well rounded and developed. Better start saving the pennies now. Than you very much to you all for your suggestions.


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## Saftlad

I'll swap you the Sage for a Classic with OPV mod & Silvia wand, along with a bag of Rave Fudge, to help you save the pennies. No, I insist, no need to for you to put any money into it too










Seriously though, shame it hasn't worked out as you had hoped. At least you should be able to sell the DB for close to what you paid though and not lose too much on getting something that delivers to your taste.


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## Jon12345

Does this mean that you cannot increase the body of a shot? Surely its a question of preinfusion, tamp, grind? I mean the Expobar pumps water through the portafilter just like Sage does? How do you reduce body in the Expobar?

I would be interested to know what the white glove service said this afternoon.


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## jeebsy

I'm quite surprised by this - shot quality from the Sage was supposed to be good.


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## Jon12345

As am I. I have the Sage and it tastes pretty good to me! But from a chemistry point of view, it would be interesting to know how the body of a shot can change, especially when you have such control over the variables, as you do with the Sage. Has anyone tried the Sage without any preinfusion at all, so that it might mimic the Expobar?


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## Mrboots2u

Like all machines and shots and beans and taste , its al massively subjective , one person liking it doesn't mean everyone will, and one person not preferring it doesn't mean its rubbish.


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## Jon12345

I agree with you Mrboos2u.


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## garydyke1

No the e61 has very preinfusion of its own - you cant turn that off.

You can mimic the same input versus output versus time on both machines (adding manual additional preinfusion on the Brewtus for example) and the e61 is ever-so-slightly gloopier and sweeter.


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## Jon12345

So what would make the Brewtus give a glooper and sweeter taste?


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## Marian

I don't want to speak about it as a quality issue. It is just one thing the Sage cannot do to my liking. I want to be very careful in what I say as I do not intend to create an argument. The technician that came explained a few things to me which I will keep to my chest. He was very honest with me and told me how the Sage works. He also did the the comparisons with the other machines with me and tried to replicate it but it is not a question of volumetrics but of how the water passes through the puck. The Sage produces a good cup of coffee but for me, the espresso doesn't compare well to my previous machines but maybe other people will disagree.


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## Marian

Jon12345 said:


> So what would make the Brewtus give a glooper and sweeter taste?


Is the Brewtus E-61? E-61 method is what produces smooth, silky, full bodied coffee due to the delivery system.


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## jeebsy

Did you get it from John Lewis? Could give their famous returns policy a workout.


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## Charliej

Marian said:


> I don't want to speak about it as a quality issue. It is just one thing the Sage cannot do to my liking. I want to be very careful in what I say as I do not intend to create an argument. The technician that came explained a few things to me which I will keep to my chest. He was very honest with me and told me how the Sage works. He also did the the comparisons with the other machines with me and tried to replicate it but it is not a question of volumetrics but of how the water passes through the puck. The Sage produces a good cup of coffee but for me, the espresso doesn't compare well to my previous machines but maybe other people will disagree.


You've piqued my interest here, from having had the shower screen and group head gasket out I can assure you that there is absolutely nothing unusual behind it to create any voodoo, you push the button and the water comes out in 4-5 streams without the pf locked in much like any machine I have ever come across and inserting and locking a loaded portafilter in should have the same effect as on any machine with regards to how the water passes through the puck. It would be interesting if you would share this "secret" information that the technician shared with you as I find it hard to believe that every single technician from the white gloves service provider is an "expert" with every machine they cover.


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## Jon12345

"E-61 method is what produces smooth, silky, full bodied coffee due to the delivery system."

Whilst you are at it, I would be interested in what the delivery system is? Is it not just a portafilter where water gets pushed through it, like the Sage? The difference being that it was some preinfusion built in? I mean how does it make it different? Could the difference (in taste) be placebo or has anyone done blind testing with a few different people?


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## Marian

Six of us did taste testing with three different machines this weekend, only one of which was E-61. We all agreed. And today with the technician too. In the end people will believe what they want to believe. I am not trying to sell anything, nor am I criticising, in fact I have gone out of my way to be balanced despite my disappointment. I think I shall leave this discussion before it turns into something less friendly. I am new to the forum and do not know the proper etiquette and how people communicate here but I dislike arguments. Once again, I thank you all for your suggestions.


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## Mrboots2u

Marian said:


> Six of us did taste testing with three different machines this weekend, only one of which was E-61. We all agreed. And today with the technician too. In the end people will believe what they want to believe. I am not trying to sell anything, nor am I criticising, in fact I have gone out of my way to be balanced despite my disappointment. I think I shall leave this discussion before it turns into something less friendly. I am new to the forum and do not know the proper etiquette and how people communicate here but I dislike arguments. Once again, I thank you all for your suggestions.


Thanks for the opinions all are gratefully received, honestly they are. I hope you stick around and come back when you get a new machine to your liking. We are a friendly bunch really. Its a shame its not for you , and i hope your not out of pocket as a result.


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## 4085

Marian, personally I would ring Sage up and talk to the boss, Dave Gubbin and tell him of your findings. Shy bairns get nowt. 0844 334 5110

Heres the link to their form if you do not fancy the phone

http://www.sageappliances.co.uk/contact-us-uk

I think you just need to explain your findings and see what he comes up with.


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## coffeechap

interesting that you are not getting on with this, just take it back to John Lewis, if you are not entirely statisfied and buy an expobar dual boiller saving nearly £200, bargain...


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## Charliej

Marian said:


> Six of us did taste testing with three different machines this weekend, only one of which was E-61. We all agreed. And today with the technician too. In the end people will believe what they want to believe. I am not trying to sell anything, nor am I criticising, in fact I have gone out of my way to be balanced despite my disappointment. I think I shall leave this discussion before it turns into something less friendly. I am new to the forum and do not know the proper etiquette and how people communicate here but I dislike arguments. Once again, I thank you all for your suggestions.


Marian I have zero irons in the fire here other than wishing to see any new machine treated fairly as some around here seem to dislike it intensely on principle. I am genuinely intrigued by what this technician has said, and am puzzled by your lack of reply regarding whether you have explored the range of settings on the machine, Gary owns an Expobar DB and definitely knows what he is talking about. Gary primarily for my own edification can the built in preinfusion of the E61 not be mimicked by the Sage?


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## coffeechap

Better still, take the sage back get a full refund and save the extra pennies for an L1 problem solved, I should be a mediator!!


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## coffeechap

i am also still genuinely intrigued with the side by side tests done and still have an open mind with regard to this machine, would love to have had a free loan of a machine for this long!


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## xiuxiuejar

I've been away for a month and we're still on the same topic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had a play on my brother's sage machine and found it made more than acceptable coffee but I agree that it lacks in the pour. You know when you put a moka through the Expobar and it pours in syruppy beige bubbles and produces a thick uniform crema. The sage just doesn't do it. The sage is extremely easy and forgiving and fast and fuss free. I can understans why people are attracted to it - especially as it makes a decent cup of coffee. But after two weeks I couldn't wait to get back home to my Brewtus and that beautiful body. I missed my coffee. I for one agree with Mariannes conclusions but don't let that take away from the fact that the sage is more than capable.


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## Jon12345

Yes, we like talking about the Sage here.









Was it the Sage dual boiler? You didn't get crema on the Sage?


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## xiuxiuejar

Jon12345 said:


> Yes, we like talking about the Sage here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Was it the Sage dual boiler? You didn't get crema on the Sage?


I didn't say that, I just said it was different. I should be careful what I say as I really don't give a monkey's ass about the machine but I don't want to start a war. It is a very capable machine and we'll leave it at that.


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## coffeechap

nooooooo lets start a war, the world is built on wars.......


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## jeebsy

[video=youtube;01-2pNCZiNk]


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## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> Gary primarily for my own edification can the built in preinfusion of the E61 not be mimicked by the Sage?


Ive no doubt it could be with the right % and time. I didnt work it that way though. I dialled in by input v output v time so they were equal. Sage didnt have the body , complexity or sweetness of the Expo BUT We are talking minute differences here, only someone whos tasted many good shots would pick out. I would say the Sage has better clarity/brightness, safe and clean.

10 seconds preinfusion @55% gives a pretty close match to the Expo at any given grind (both machines pressure and temp calibrated)


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## garydyke1

There are pros and cons to both machines, neither are perfect and neither will suit everyones needs.


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## MWJB

> [video=youtube;01-2pNCZiNk]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone should take a moment, reflect...and ask, "What would Edwin Starr have made of all this?!" ;-)


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## Jon12345

In practical usage, I am finding the auto timer and fast heat up times to be invaluable. I got in today from town, fancied a cuppa and switched on the machine. A few minutes later I was ready to brew.

Anyone know how the body/sweetness could vary between the Sage and Brewtus, when both are having water pushed through the portafilter? I can't see how they differ, unless there is some variable pressure throughout the pour. No one seems to comment on this.


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## jeebsy

It's just pushing water but the delivery mechanism is different - the E61 is a design classic (not that i know why)


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## Jon12345

I am confused by the term delivery mechanism. Do you mean the way water is pushed through the portafilter? Or the speed?


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## xiuxiuejar

I wouldn't be surprised that the main difference between the Sage and the Rockets and Expobars etc is thermal inertia. Sage controls the volumentrics and has a temperature element to control heat. The e-61 machines have a thermo syphon and the pre-infusion is passive as the hot water passes into the chamber. It's like heating water in a kettle or on a stove, it somehow tastes different when you make a cup of tea. This is just a theory and I have no fact to back it up but hey, sometimes these thoughts plucked out of nowhere end up correct.


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## Xpenno

Yeah, there is a reason that the e61 is still used after all this time. It must be a combination of temperature stability, pressure profile, pre-infusion and water distribution onto the puck. Different group = different coffee.


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## Jon12345

Some people believe water has a memory and hence homeopathy has some validity. However, there is no scientific evidence whatsoever to prove water has a memory. I suspect the same for how you heat water. But coke does taste better from a glass bottle, then can, but lastly in plastic bottle!

Maybe the Brewtus and Sage soak the water with different levels of saturation. It would be interesting to see a video of water coming out of the Brewtus verses the Sage. If its the same, I'm not so sure the Sage cannot replicate the taste of the Brewtus. Having said that, only practical tests could verify that.

I imagine the temp stability on the Sage is pretty good, as it has a PID in the group head and also I think Gary did some tests on this and it was pretty much bang on. Isn't preinfusion meant to make sure the water goes evenly through the puck? So that should make it the same??


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## MWJB

If the pre infusion scenarios are different, it doesn't matter if grind, dose, basket, shot mass, pressure & temp are the same - the concentration of the shots at different stages can still be different & ultimately extraction yield (sweetness) at a given shot mass. "Water memory" probably isn't relevant.


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## xiuxiuejar

Jon12345 said:


> Some people believe water has a memory and hence homeopathy has some validity. However, there is no scientific evidence whatsoever to prove water has a memory. I suspect the same for how you heat water. But coke does taste better from a glass bottle, then can, but lastly in plastic bottle!
> 
> Maybe the Brewtus and Sage soak the water with different levels of saturation. It would be interesting to see a video of water coming out of the Brewtus verses the Sage. If its the same, I'm not so sure the Sage cannot replicate the taste of the Brewtus. Having said that, only practical tests could verify that.


I suspect you are correct. The Sage's strength is its ability to control everything and produce consistant results. If it were just volumentrics and mathmatics, it would do it. However, there must be a reason that after so many years, it is only now that the e-61 is being replaced in higher end machines. It can't just be about ingredients, volumes and weights or everybody would make the same drinks, cook the same foods etc. There has to be something in materials, methods, constructions etc.


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## xiuxiuejar

I think if a rotary pump can make such a big difference, the delivery method is equally as important!


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## Jon12345

I'm wondering if full bodied is due to more even distribution of water through the puck? If so, would a longer preinfusion time help increase body? How about 15 secs instead of 10 or whatever? Just a theory and I am probably completely wrong. If good body is a good thing for most people, then it would be nice to know how it can be replicated with those who have the Sage (i.e. me!).


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## xiuxiuejar

it's all good ... as they say! And maybe you don't want to replicate it! Especially if you are satisfied with your results.That's the most important message. You can ask 100 people what is best and it doesn't matter if it is 99 to 1, if you're happy you're right!


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## MWJB

Probably a slower flow through the puck, so try less preinfusion time?


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## Jon12345

I used to hate coffee. Then I went to Costa and was amazed at how much nicer is was. I became a regular. Then I found a good local barista and thought Costa was pants. Sometimes you can get spoilt and it becomes harder to find somewhere decent again. Its like a one way progression.

Its nice to have comparisons because then I can incrementally upgrade my taste bud pleasure.


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## Jon12345

So preinfusion makes the flow faster? I thought it would be the opposite because you have the same volume of water going through a wider portion of the puck, rather than channeling where you get less resistance?


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## garydyke1

MWJB said:


> If the pre infusion scenarios are different, it doesn't matter if grind, dose, basket, shot mass, pressure & temp are the same - the concentration of the shots at different stages can still be different & ultimately extraction yield (sweetness) at a given shot mass. "Water memory" probably isn't relevant.


This. Changing preinfusion time and % does effect body and sweetness. It just more parameters to dial in for any given coffee.

Fine migration probably has something to do with it http://www.jimseven.com/2011/02/08/continued-thoughts-on-pressure-profiling/


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## AndyS

Marian said:


> The technician that came explained a few things to me which I will keep to my chest. He was very honest with me and told me how the Sage works. He also did the the comparisons with the other machines with me and tried to replicate it but it is not a question of volumetrics but of how the water passes through the puck. The Sage produces a good cup of coffee but for me, the espresso doesn't compare well to my previous machines but maybe other people will disagree.





Charliej said:


> there is absolutely nothing unusual behind it to create any voodoo, you push the button and the water comes out in 4-5 streams without the pf locked in much like any machine I have ever come across and inserting and locking a loaded portafilter in should have the same effect as on any machine with regards to how the water passes through the puck.


I'm not at all familiar with this machine, but I read somewhere it uses a 54mm portafilter basket. If that's true, it is a significant limitation, since one is stuck with a small selection of baskets with unverified properties vs a larger selection of quality 58mm baskets.

There are differences among baskets for which machine settings (preinfusion, temperature, extraction pressure, etc) CANNOT compensate. It could be the Sage baskets that are preventing Marian from achieving the texture she prefers.


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## Jon12345

58mm group head according to amazon.com.


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## garydyke1

They are 58mm. And tests machine v machine were 18g VSTs in both. Saying that the Sage standard basket is pretty high quality


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## Jon12345

Gary, I just noticed that the Sage has adjustments for not only preinfusion time but also pressure. Have you tried fiddling with the pressure to see what impact that has on body etc?


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## AndyS

garydyke1 said:


> They are 58mm. And tests machine v machine were 18g VSTs in both. Saying that the Sage standard basket is pretty high quality


Well then, that disproves my basket hypothesis.


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## MWJB

There is a Sage/Breville machine with a smaller basket (the Infuser) but I don't think we get that one in the UK, don't know the Barista Express basket size, but they do vary across the line.


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## garydyke1

Jon12345 said:


> Gary, I just noticed that the Sage has adjustments for not only preinfusion time but also pressure. Have you tried fiddling with the pressure to see what impact that has on body etc?


Not yet. If they dont ask for the machine back before I get round to doing it!


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## garydyke1

AndyS said:


> Well then, that disproves my basket hypothesis.


Whats your view on preinfusion and the effect upon body/TDS ?


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## AndyS

garydyke1 said:


> They are 58mm. And tests machine v machine were 18g VSTs in both. Saying that the Sage standard basket is pretty high quality


To tell you the truth, I don't know exactly what a Sage is. I assumed it was the same as a Breville machine that was reviewed in the US at Seattle Coffee Gear, where they said it had a 54mm portafilter.

Are you saying the original poster (Marian) used all 18g VSTs in her machine comparisons, or are you referring to some other test?



garydyke1 said:


> Whats your view on preinfusion and the effect upon body/TDS ?


Hard to give a simple answer. Since a thorough preinfusion increases flow rate, it usually motivates me to change grind in order to compensate. In that situation it increases TDS.

I don't focus much on body so I really shouldn't comment.


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## Charliej

Andy its the latest version of the Breville Dual Boiler the 920XL, due to some weird licensing thing it can't be called Breville in the UK, both myself and Gary have machines to test and review Gary has been doing some 1 to 1 comparisons between it and his Expobar Brewtus, which is where the 2 18g VST baskets come into it, I've been alternating between 18g and 20g VSTs and played with the 22 a few times, and had my best results with the 20g one. I have found myself doing as you do and changing grind to compensate when playing with longer preinfusion times, but you can also change the preinfusion pressure on the machine as well from 55% to 100% relative to the OPV being set at 9 Bar.


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## AndyS

Charliej said:


> both myself and Gary have machines to test and review Gary has been doing some 1 to 1 comparisons between it and his Expobar Brewtus, which is where the 2 18g VST baskets come into it, I've been alternating between 18g and 20g VSTs


Thanks for the info, now I understand. So it seems possible that the original poster was using the Sage baskets; she didn't like the texture. Meanwhile you guys are mostly happy with your shots using VSTs. If the OPs baskets were shy on hole area she would have had to coarsen up the grind to get a decent flow rate. That would make the texture thin (among other things).

Just another guess, of course.


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## Dylan

AndyS said:


> Thanks for the info, now I understand. So it seems possible that the original poster was using the Sage baskets; she didn't like the texture. Meanwhile you guys are mostly happy with your shots using VSTs. If the OPs baskets were shy on hole area she would have had to coarsen up the grind to get a decent flow rate. That would make the texture thin (among other things).
> 
> Just another guess, of course.


The Sage rep who came on here insisted that the Sage/Breville baskets were as good as VST's (not that he would be biased or anything ^_^ ). But I'm fairly sure I remember one of the members here who tested the machine saying they were one of the best stock baskets... who knows if this is all a figment of my imagination tho.

edit:

Here we go, from our Gary



> The Sage Basket
> 
> When I flipped out the Sage basket from the portafilter I thought I was looking at a VST
> 
> The only visible difference was the lack of a VST stamp in the rim or the side
> 
> The ridgeless basket supplied is very good quality. Much better than baskets supplied with home machines that I have come across in the past


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## 4085

I wonder, if this is more of a grinding issue. The Sylvia, for example is know to be very grind sensitive. I wonder if either Charlie or Gary vcan try to pout a thick, gloupy shot that Marian refers to. I think Gary has mentioned that the Expobar is a thicker shot, but ignoring any machine comparisons, can either of you guys reproduce the shot Mariam is after?


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## garydyke1

Ill have a good go right now, the naked filter has gone sadly but Ill shoot for 18g in 18g out in 50 seconds : ) should be like honey


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## Mrboots2u

garydyke1 said:


> Ill have a good go right now, the naked filter has gone sadly but Ill shoot for 18g in 18g out in 50 seconds : ) should be like honey


Cool one mr **** . So going really fine on the grind? Be interested to hear what that tastes like and what pre infusion etc you use , and actually what it looks like in the glass . Any chance of a pic of phone clip of it ?


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## garydyke1

So I set the grind 1 notch finer than anything that would have choked Brewtus.

10 seconds preinfusion @ 55%

42 seconds - 27.5g out!

Was it gloopy? Nope

Was it tasty ? Hell yes.


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## garydyke1

forgot to take a pic until most of it has gone


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## Mrboots2u

What coffee was it ? None of the normal profiles of an over extracted shot then? Perhaps try and replicate on the brewtus ( as much as the brewtus pre infusion will allow ).

Presumably the big pre infusion allowed you to go that fine and not over extract taste wise ?


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## garydyke1

It was Bolivia David Vilca Natural.

With the types of coffees I use find it hard to over-extract espresso under 50 seconds to be honest. Brewtus does a very decent (gloopy!) 50 seconds ristretto (FSR).

I think the way to approach this is to remove as much preinfusion from the Sage as possible and try again, however this coffee is £8 for 250g. Picked the wrong one to experiment with


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## garydyke1

Well cos I love you guys I used another 57.6p worth of the Vilca Natural.

So I set the grind 1 notch finer than anything that would have choked Brewtus.

zero seconds preinfusion

52 seconds - 17.9g out!

Was it gloopy? ish

Was it tasty ? kinda

Maybe a touch of bovril on the back-end and very little in the way of cherry acidity.


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## Mrboots2u

garydyke1 said:


> Well cos I love you guys I used another 57.6p worth of the Vilca Natural.
> 
> So I set the grind 1 notch finer than anything that would have choked Brewtus.
> 
> zero seconds preinfusion
> 
> 52 seconds - 17.9g out!
> 
> Was it gloopy? ish
> 
> Was it tasty ? kinda
> 
> Maybe a touch of bovril on the back-end and very little in the way of cherry acidity.


Cheers Gary . Ill paypal you the 58p







. It these kind of comparisons that d be cool to put on the shoot out thread .


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## garydyke1

Dont be daft you already paid for enough coffee!

Anyway proof - The shorter the preinfusion the slower the flow rate. Must be that initial fine-migration.

My next test will be same grind and 20 seconds preinfusion @ 55%


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## Jon12345

I'm liking these tests, since I have the Sage Dual Boiler. Most of the cuppas I make taste pretty good to me, but sometimes I think my tamping varies slightly and the flow rate differs, giving slight variations.

I'm using Lavatzza beans from the supermarket. Are they fresh or too old by the time they hit the supermarket shelves?


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## ronsil

Jon12345 said:


> I'm using Lavatzza beans from the supermarket. Are they fresh or too old by the time they hit the supermarket shelves?


Stale for sure!

Why not try one of the many fresh roasters mentioned on here. Rave - Hasbean - Compass - James Gourmet - Union etc.etc

You won't believe the difference. Try some & let us know.


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## garydyke1

Jon12345 said:


> I'm liking these tests, since I have the Sage Dual Boiler. Most of the cuppas I make taste pretty good to me, but sometimes I think my tamping varies slightly and the flow rate differs, giving slight variations.
> 
> I'm using Lavatzza beans from the supermarket. Are they fresh or too old by the time they hit the supermarket shelves?


They are Lavazza? Ooooffff get out!


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## Charliej

I've been finding that to get a thicker gloopier shot 3 seconds preinfusion and 57% pressure, grind tight and then for the last 5-6 seconds of the shot do a quick double press on the manual button and hold it in so the last bit of the shot is done at preinfusion pressure, sorry no photos phone was on charge at the time very tasty shot indeed. This was with the Roberts Burundi Urama I bought just before Xmas 20.8g in( thats what the dose came out as after my usual double shot grind button for ~18g and single shot button to top up to ~20g and 27.5g out. I'll have a play with the stock basket again to see what gives there, like Gary I went straight to my VSts so I could use the same basket in the Sage and my Classic, I might even fire up the Classic and see what the Sage basket performs like in that.

Jon you must get some proper beans from a good roaster you will not believe the difference that alone will raise your coffee quality think LIDL quality steak vs a good butchers local properly aged steak.


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## Jon12345

Can someone suggest a bean and where to buy please? Are they expensive? My Lavazza was £3.50 for the bag I believe.


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## 4085

Depends on your taste and usage. If you go through a kilo a week like I do, then Rave offer free postage over £25. That will get you two kilos. If that is too much then share it, freeze it etc. Everyone has their favourite roaster but it really is a personal thing. What part of the country are you in?


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## 4515

That sounds like some routine

Its probably not as involved as it sounds in writing but I struggle to set my timer and machine going at the same time



Charliej said:


> I've been finding that to get a thicker gloopier shot 3 seconds preinfusion and 57% pressure, grind tight and then for the last 5-6 seconds of the shot do a quick double press on the manual button and hold it in so the last bit of the shot is done at preinfusion pressure, sorry no photos phone was on charge at the time very tasty shot indeed. This was with the Roberts Burundi Urama I bought just before Xmas 20.8g in( thats what the dose came out as after my usual double shot grind button for ~18g and single shot button to top up to ~20g and 27.5g out. I'll have a play with the stock basket again to see what gives there, like Gary I went straight to my VSts so I could use the same basket in the Sage and my Classic, I might even fire up the Classic and see what the Sage basket performs like in that.
> 
> Jon you must get some proper beans from a good roaster you will not believe the difference that alone will raise your coffee quality think LIDL quality steak vs a good butchers local properly aged steak.


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## ronsil

A very reasonable price bean you may like to try is Rave Italian Job.

Makes a very good espresso & very forgiving in preparation. Including postage (ask for 2nd. class) 1 kilo comes in around £12.

Do a search on here for "The Italian Job' & you will see what other people think of them


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## Jon12345

I live near Tunbridge Wells, Kent. There is a local roaster called Ismail, who also sell online. They charge £6.50 for a bag of coffee the same size as my Lavazza £3.50 bag, but you also get a free coffee on the house in their local cafe. Not sure what size the bags in the shops are.


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## Jon12345

Just ordered some Rave from Amazon. Thanks for the recommendation.


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## garydyke1

Good work. Some decent freshly roasted beans = night and day.

The Sage standard basket isnt bad at all! Infact I put the wrong one in Brewtus (ie the sage) and didnt notice for a couple of days, the grind required was pretty much the same!


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## Jon12345

I am sure I read somewhere that the Sage designed their basket based on the VST, not that I even know what a VST is. But I recall reading something about Sage modelling it.


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## Charliej

working dog said:


> That sounds like some routine
> 
> Its probably not as involved as it sounds in writing but I struggle to set my timer and machine going at the same time


Its actually far les complicated than it sounds, the preinfusion time and pressure you set from the display before you start to pull the shot and after that its one button press to start the shot ( built in shot timer that starts as you start the shot) then a second button press to stop the shot then a press and hold for the last bit simples


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## Charliej

Another thought has just struck me, maybe it would be worth setting a long preinfusion time and a high say 85-90% preinfusion pressure and pulling the entire shot that way, could be interesting any thoughts? Obviously this would mean ending the shot by weight or by eye when it starts to blonde.


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## Mrboots2u

Charliej said:


> Another thought has just struck me, maybe it would be worth setting a long preinfusion time and a high say 85-90% preinfusion pressure and pulling the entire shot that way, could be interesting any thoughts? Obviously this would mean ending the shot by weight or by eye when it starts to blonde.


I wonder how all these pre infusion times comes to when you hold the lever down etc....


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## garydyke1

Give it a go!


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## Mrboots2u

Yep gonna! Thinking of what coffee to use that would be forgiving of a long extraction .


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## 4085

Lavazza of course......pre ground as well!


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## AndyS

garydyke1 said:


> The Sage standard basket isnt bad at all! Infact I put the wrong one in Brewtus (ie the sage) and didnt notice for a couple of days, the grind required was pretty much the same!





Jon12345 said:


> I am sure I read somewhere that the Sage designed their basket based on the VST, not that I even know what a VST is. But I recall reading something about Sage modelling it.





D_Evans said:


> The Sage rep who came on here insisted that the Sage/Breville baskets were as good as VST's (not that he would be biased or anything ^_^ ).


Well, I am biased, too. But without each basket being scanned (and then accepted or rejected), it is very hard to know if it meets spec. And it's very hard to know whether a supposedly "identical" basket your friend may get next month will meet the same spec as yours.

Outward, polished appearance doesn't mean much at all.

[disclosure: I'm a former VST filter basket beta tester...no financial interest in company...your mileage may vary...all that glitters is not gold...the squeaky wheel gets the grease...nature abhors a vacuum...the sea refuses no river.]


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## Charliej

I think all anyone is saying about the Sage/Breville baskets, Andy, is that they are much better manufactured that the standard run of the mill baskets supplied with even the high end machines like the Alex Duetto etc.

I'm going to try the long extraction via a higher than would be considered normal preinfusion pressure and set the time to a couple of minutes but stop it manually with this Roberts Burundi Murama I'm on at the moment now I've got my head around it, I can finally taste properly again after this dreaded lurgy I've had, at the Drs in the morning to get checked over and see if I'm ok to get out and about again, being housebound drives me nuts.


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## AndyS

Charliej said:


> I think all anyone is saying about the Sage/Breville baskets, Andy, is that they are much better manufactured that the standard run of the mill baskets supplied with even the high end machines like the Alex Duetto etc.


That's good news. Do you find a difference in the espresso with your Sage basket vs a VST?

Many commercial baskets make very nice espresso, although some are really lousy.


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## Charliej

I have to be honest and say I haven't used the Sage basket a lot as in the beginning I was comparing between my Classic and the Sage so used my 2 18g Vst baskets and since then just been using the VSt 18g and 20g with the Sage, going to give the Sage one a go over the weekend I've got another forum member coming over on Saturday so I'll see if he's in for a quick blind test.


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## Dylan

Yea, as Charlie mentioned, I was more getting at the point that if they are "good" out of the box they really shouldn't have such a dramatic effect on espresso that the OP noticed. But that is obviously an assuumtion


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## Charliej

D_Evans said:


> Yea, as Charlie mentioned, I was more getting at the point that if they are "good" out of the box they really shouldn't have such a dramatic effect on espresso that the OP noticed. But that is obviously an assuumtion


Well looking at the Sage baskets they have certainly taken a cue from VST/LM Strada baskets so maybe they're along the lines of the unscanned unstamped LM baskets that Coffee Hit sell so if the op wasn't used to that type of basket and hole distribution and surface area of the basket's bottom then as any basket like that could cause issues, look how many people have struggled with VSTs initially in the past.


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## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> Well looking at the Sage baskets they have certainly taken a cue from VST/LM Strada baskets so maybe they're along the lines of the unscanned unstamped LM baskets that Coffee Hit sell so if the op wasn't used to that type of basket and hole distribution and surface area of the basket's bottom then as any basket like that could cause issues, look how many people have struggled with VSTs initially in the past.


It would be somewhat amusing if someone were to not get what they were after with espresso from the Sage due to the basket.

(Taste aside) The standard Expobar basket does seem to produce a shot with thicker mouthfeel when compared to the VST!


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## Mrboots2u

I think the OP is moving onto a r58 guys . It's just leave you lot discussing it now.


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## garydyke1

Again , somewhat amusing if situation is resolved until such as time as VST basket is 'upgraded' onto the r58 haha


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## Charliej

Gary, have you tried the standard expo basket in the Sage just to see? lol Maybe I should try a standard Gaggia one as well. The thought about the basket occurred to me because I remembered reading posts on HB and the Aussie Crema forum, which isn't as up it's own arse as coffeenobs, about people seeming to struggle in a big way with VST baskets.


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## yakima

Marian said:


> Wow, thank you so much for so many replies. It's a very difficult thing to explain. The machine makes nice espresso but I find that it lacks a silky feel on the tongue. I have tried all of my favourite beans and have good but not great results. One of my friends has an Expobar (I think) machine and another has a NS Oscar and they have a beautiful texture more comparative to my old machines. I just find the coffee my Sage is producing lacks texture in mouth. It's a really difficult thing to explain but it's as if the my machine makes a technically perfect cup of coffee but it lacks that depth and texture.
> 
> As for everything else it is fine. Frothing is easy, warm up time is about ten minutes which is great (although I tend to leave it longer). It is also fuss free which appealed to me, it really is easy. The other thing you asked is my grinder. We have three grinders (I told you, I've been into coffee for many years) I have a Luigi Mazzer Super Jolly, A Brasilia RR45 and a Bezzera, all of which are more than capable. I also did the white glove service and have spoken to a Sage representative on the telephone.
> 
> I hope you are able to point me in the correct direction because I would like a few months of use before going back to an E-61 group. I am missing that retro look in the kitchen already! Or maybe you will help me make coffee to knock my socks off! I am trying very hard to be balanced and not show my disappointment as I do not wish to step on anybody's toes but this is a technological step up from most machines as it does everything for you - it even times your shot but as far as I'm concerned it is a step down (even if only slight) from my Bezzera or Domobar machines in terms of coffee.
> 
> Thank you


 Sounds like the machine is possibly responsible for producing flavours from your regular coffee that you were not aware of before acquiring the Sage. The machine is most certainly very capable of producing the result you crave. Experiment with different beans and certainly not over-roasted (ie. without visible signs of oil) so you can taste the real flavour of the beans. If you are working on a ratio of 1:1.5 ie.20g ground coffee to 30ml of dose (up to a maximum of 1:3 in a 190ml cup) at a 25sec extraction rate (including an 8sec pre-infusion) you will be in a good position to decide whether you like the taste of the beans. It's not the machine so I hope you are still using it.


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## B-Roadie

yakima said:


> Sounds like the machine is possibly responsible for producing flavours from your regular coffee that you were not aware of before acquiring the Sage. The machine is most certainly very capable of producing the result you crave. Experiment with different beans and certainly not over-roasted (ie. without visible signs of oil) so you can taste the real flavour of the beans. If you are working on a ratio of 1:1.5 ie.20g ground coffee to 30ml of dose (up to a maximum of 1:3 in a 190ml cup) at a 25sec extraction rate (including an 8sec pre-infusion) you will be in a good position to decide whether you like the taste of the beans. It's not the machine so I hope you are still using it.


 This topic is 6 1/2 years old. The Sage will have likely gone back on warranty before now.


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## Inspector

😂 👻👻👻


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