# Hello from Bexleyheath



## Hairy_Hogg

Hi all

Been reading the forums for a few weeks now and made a few posts.

I was a pour over man, as per my sig, and still enjoy a pour over at work and home.

Just taken receipt of a pre loved Gaggia Classic (including a Motta tamper, bottomless portafilter and basket for it) and have a Graef conical burr grinder arriving next week from Germany (using my Hario grinders until that arrives)

Can anyone point me in the direction of a simple guide to making espresso? I cannot find anything that gives simple step by step instructions. Looking for something that also covers basic principles and answer my newbie questions such as:

Do you weigh the beans or just fill the basket, level off then tamp?

Do you extract more coffee for a double shot than a single shot and if so how much output should there be for each method?

Are there timing differences for a double and single shot?

Difference techniques to consider using the standard portafilter and a bottomless portafilter

I appreciate there is a degree of dialing in but a starter guide would be nice to help get there.

Thanks all, looking forwards to participating more.


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## The Systemic Kid

Welcome to the forum.

Need to get a set of scales to weigh your beans - check out Ebay for jeweller's scales.

Start with 18grms using the double basket - need the pressurised basket - identifiable via plastic grommet and double wall in basket.

Aim to get 36grms of espresso from your dose of 18grms in around 25-30secs from moment you hit the 'on' button. If it's too fast, tighten the grind, if takes too long, coarsen grind. Tamp firmly and consistently.

Wouldn't bother using the single basket - much harder to get consistent results.


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## The Systemic Kid

You want some scales - something like  these  which can also use to put on your drip tray to measure extracted espress weight - crucial to fine tuning shot making.


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## Hairy_Hogg

I have some Hario drip scales as per my sig but they are a little to big for the drip tray. Have ordered those ebay ones already for weighing beans at work so they will get re-purposed...

Can you recommend a pressurised basket?

My grinder just arrived so that is going to make life a bit easier


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## jlarkin

I'd recommend reading the Barista Hustles for espresso recipes (and most of the rest of it) http://www.baristahustle.com/espresso-recipes-analyzing-dose/ that'll give you a good starting point for preparing espresso. Any questions from it you could ask. Also under the new members part on the forum there are some useful bits and pieces of information.


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## The Systemic Kid

Hairy_Hogg said:


> Can you recommend a pressurised basket?


Don't bother with pressurised baskets - they are designed to produce loads of crema. Here's a picture of stock and pressurised basket on right.


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## Hairy_Hogg

The Systemic Kid said:


> Don't bother with pressurised baskets - they are designed to produce loads of crema. Here's a picture of stock and pressurised basket on right.
> 
> View attachment 17016


Your confusing me now (not hard) above you stated "need the pressurised basket" now you are saying don't bother?


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## The Systemic Kid

Apologies - just seen the typo in the first post - should have read 'need to ditch the pressurised basket'. Stock unpressurised baskets are the ones to use.


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## Hairy_Hogg

OK - Here is what I have.









If I fill the standard double basket (not going to try the bottomless one for a while) and level off the top it is taking 20 grams.

Need to suss out the grind size on my Graef OR work out if I am tamping wrong as I am getting 60ml/ in about 15 seconds at the moment which tastes bitter.

Using the following beans that I ordered for Espresso that arrived this week


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## The Systemic Kid

For 20grm dose, aim for 40grm in the cup. Don't go on liquid measurement, i.e. ml as it's inaccurate. 25-30secs is the time zone you want to be in. Naked PF will help you refine your barista technique by providing feedback on extraction evenness.


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## Hairy_Hogg

OK, I am using the scales and have adjusted the grind down a little but I am getting 15 second extractions on 45g output.


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## The Systemic Kid

Can you tighten the grind to extend the extraction time to 25-30secs? Which Graef grinder are you using?


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## Hairy_Hogg

I have the 800 model, just received it this morning so I am literally juggling all new variables - new machine, new grinder and new coffee as well as new coffee making technique. I have tried 10, 7 and 5 so far and extraction was the same time(ish) on all of them. Away for a few days now so will try 3 ob Wednesday when I have time to play again.


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## jlarkin

Bear in mind that some burrs will need to be run in a bit before they work well and consistently. If you can get some stale coffee from a roastery it might be worth grinding it to season the burrs.

Also I'm not sure but thought I'd read that the Graef has an adjustment to get the finer grinds and that's relatively easy to do with the burrs and how they fit. Sorry if I'm wrong but think I saw that recently. Maybe @Jumbo Ratty might have posted that or maybe he's seen it on one of the threads about Graef recently? I can't find it now


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## Jumbo Ratty

The CM 800 shouldnt need the shim mod, it should easily go fine enough. Just keep adjusting the grinder to a finer setting. Ive seen videos of it chocking the classic on you tube. Ive included a video of the grinder being used with a classic and from what I can see I would definately grind finer than in this video and can see the machine has a lot of adjustment left to go,and the tamping is laughable.

heres an in depth guide to doing the shim mod. But beware doing this as if the wrong size \ thickness washer is put in the burs can rub together and irreparably damage them and you will never be able to grind beans for espresso. I havent got a price for replacement burs but have read somewhere they cost almost as much as the whole machine.

http://coffeesnobs.com.au/attachments/EM0480_Recalibration_Guide.PDF


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## Jumbo Ratty

Heres the other video and you can see at 4.27 the chap making the video has ground fine enough to choke the machine. Im sure someone on here can translate the text that goes with it.


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## Hairy_Hogg

Still getting quick extractions. I have taken the grinder apart and adjusted the fineness, set the grinder to it's maximum fine setting and this is what I am getting out. Does this look fine enough?


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## Jumbo Ratty

That doesnt look that fine to me.

When you took the grinder apart did you add another washer like in the PDF ?


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## Hairy_Hogg

Jumbo Ratty said:


> That doesnt look that fine to me.
> 
> When you took the grinder apart did you add another washer like in the PDF ?


Sorry, you have lost me there - what washer?

Online manual is here - that takes you to a PDF but there is no mention of a washer.

I have now taken this to 5 micro adjustments in the fine direction and I get the following:









This is finer but is starting to choke the grinder

Still a quick extract, puck looks like this after pulling a shot


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## Jumbo Ratty

Jumbo Ratty said:


> heres an in depth guide to doing the shim mod. But beware doing this as if the wrong size \ thickness washer is put in the burs can rub together and irreparably damage them and you will never be able to grind beans for espresso. I havent got a price for replacement burs but have read somewhere they cost almost as much as the whole machine.
> 
> http://coffeesnobs.com.au/attachments/EM0480_Recalibration_Guide.PDF


This PDF


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## Hairy_Hogg

Nope, not done that. Would have hoped that it is not really needed, and as stated have already done 5 micro adjustments so that is almost the same as doing that mod.

Getting to the point where I am considering sending it back to Deutschland and looking for a second hand known entity grinder


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## Jumbo Ratty

I wouldnt have thought it needed taking apart either to get it to grind fine enough for espresso.

Read some of the reviews for it on Amazon and one of those say it chokes their machines

"I made the mistake of putting it straight on to maximus finyness! first time out. The coffee took ages to grind, I was disappointed, but then I realised it was so fine it compacted hard and my coffee maker struggled to get the water through. I also had powder flow through to the cup.

I turned it down a few notches and it now makes perfect espresso grind in seconds"

"I have to say it's not half bad. It's build quality is just fine, it does get down fine enough for espresso (I didn't do any adjustments, just took it out the box and plugged it in then set a grind setting. I am using about 5.3 at the moment)"

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Graef-CM-800-grinder-aluminium/dp/B00CS2DAEG


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## Hairy_Hogg

I read those reviews as well, definitely on the lowest/finest setting though.


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## Hairy_Hogg

OK, I am pretty sure the grind is fine enough now and I am tamping relatively OK based on watching videos and reading posts on here and elsewhere on the internet.

Here are two videos, the first shows the flow of water with no coffee loaded, the second shows 20g of grinds being extracted, 71g of finished coffee coming it pretty quickly. Would appreciate any comments


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## Jumbo Ratty

I cant watch the videos. Its asking me to sign in ? sign in to what?


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## jlarkin

I think it's asking you to sign in to YouTube but it won't help because they're "private" which I think means restricted to Hairy Hogg. You need to change them to either public - for all to see - or the other setting where you can only see it if you have the link...


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## Hairy_Hogg

Hopefully that is sorted now, set to public


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## Jumbo Ratty

The coffee certainly comes out at rate of knots !

The water on its own looks pretty normal to me.

try upping the amount of ground coffee you are putting in the portafilter by half a gram and see if that slows it down.if not, try another half a gram.

Id also try tamping harder,,, although a lot of people will cry only change one variable at a time


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## jlarkin

If you can, you need to grind finer 60g in 17 secs is a rate of knots indeed! Do you know what type of basket (make and size) you're using?


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## Hairy_Hogg

I have no idea I am afraid of the type of basket unless there is somewhere I can check. I would suspect it is the std double that comes with the Gaggia. There is a picture at the top of the thread of what I have, this is an early made in Italy model.

I just managed to get a 25 second extract on 20g grinds and 42ish grams out. This was pretty much on the same grind. Difference this time was that instead of just turning the machine on to warm for 20-30 mins before I inserted the portafilter I ran water through the head (as usual) but also ran water out the stream wand as well.

I did not get any instructions with the unit so I am not sure if there is a special way of priming the machine to get it too work properly but this definitely seems like a step in the right direction. Coffee tasted a lot (infinitely) better than previous attempts but not quite there yet.


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## Jumbo Ratty

FYI, the 20gms is a triple basket. 14 grams would be a double. 7gms is a single

in your photo of your baskets I see you have three. Are they 3 different sizes? are you using the largest one?

Also, have you tried upping the dose by half a gram? Im pretty sure this would slow the flow rate down, , if not try an extra gram


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## Hairy_Hogg

I *think* I have the std single and double that comes with the machine therefore I am pushing 20g into a std double - is that silly and should it be taking even longer?

The 3rd is a bottomless/Naked Portafilter that came with the machine (also got a blanking plate)

I think the next experiment is to see what I get with 14g


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## russe11

The basket on the bottomless is a triple... leave that there for now and just use the double basket. Aim for 25 seconds pull which means you need to grind finer or tamp harder than you are at the moment. Level off your fluffy grind (we hope)! to the top of basket. Then tamp firmly, which once compressed should give you about 5mm gap at top for the water start working inside the top of the basket, and find it's way down into your receptive cup. If you over fill the basket or it is too fine it will start to choke, if you get to that stage then back off your grinder to make it a tad courser and you should be getting somewhere close.

I'd probably TRY and choke it myself then back off grinder


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## Hairy_Hogg

Thanks @russe11

What is the difference between a level off and weighing the grinds?

I have just sent my grinder back to Germany for a refund and will spend a bit more on a new grinder, at the moment i am experimenting with my Skerton hand grinder. Managed to choke it and in am now dialling back one notch at a time.

Also adjusted to 9bar.

Will report back on progress, if I do not run out of beans. Trying to get the Greaf dialled in wasted a couple of bags...


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## russe11

It's more Guesstimating but your not going to be too far away. At the moment I would not try and fill your head too much with all the weighing and such like.... Just try and get some sort of decent tasting coffee out first, keep it simple and keep it as consistent as you can without going into overload worrying is this right, is that right.


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## Hairy_Hogg

This is fast p'ing me off.

1. Fine enough grind to choke the machine

2. Adjust one setting/notch on grinder

3. 50g in 9 seconds

Tried weighing beans to keep that constant

Tried levelling off

Seriously considering selling the Gaggia now as at least my pour over results were consistent. Bought Gaggia as I like the odd espresso and americano but more importantly the wife likes a latte (the only coffee she likes)


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## Mrboots2u

Do you have

Coffee in the hopper or are you single dosing ?

The difference between the two shots is probably technique ( if you are weighing - if you have - why stop weighing by the way - it's not going to

Make it any more accurate )

Espresso making demands consistency - dose - prep - temp and sometimes isn't learnt in a day or a week .

Are the scales to 0.1g resolution btw

There is some short term pain and frustration in learning for everyone at the start of espresso . If you feel you summon the patience then it is worst the effort in the end .


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## Hairy_Hogg

I am grinding in my Hario Skerton - not sure what you mean by "in hopper or single dosing" - I just returned my Graef grinder after having problems and I am not going to spend more money until I can sort a basic shot.

I was weighing, 18g beans, then it was suggested I filled the basket and then levelled off by russe11

I have 2 sets of scales, both 0.1g accurate. One a set of Hario drip scales, the other the £7.50 scales from eBay most people recommend .

Beans are from Rave, rested them 5 days before using. Currently put around 750g through the machine. Need to order some more now...


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## Mrboots2u

Hairy_Hogg said:


> I am grinding in my Hario Skerton - not sure what you mean by "in hopper or single dosing" - I just returned my Graef grinder after having problems and I am not going to spend more money until I can sort a basic shot.
> 
> I was weighing, 18g beans, then it was suggested I filled the basket and then levelled off by russe11
> 
> I have 2 sets of scales, both 0.1g accurate. One a set of Hario drip scales, the other the £7.50 scales from eBay most people recommend .


Sorry didnt realise you were using a skerton

the steps on that grinder are big - and in all honesty it's not really suitable for espresso - i am not suprised you are having a tough time with it and getting frustrated - its just not up to it.

Perhaps at the setting you " choke it at " you can either dose less coffee - or tamp less hard - to speed it up

OR

at the setting where it is gushing - dose a bit more coffee and tamp harder to slow it down ...

You are trying to make espresso with a grinder that has an adjustment mechanism not suited to it ( stepped ) and also the variance of the grinds it is producing at a fine level are also probably too variable for espresso making ...


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## Hairy_Hogg

I was using a Graef conical burr grinder before that with similar challenges though. Appreciate what you are saying about the Hario grinder, I also have the slim and cannot dial that in. Enough people on YouTube seem to be able to though


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## Mrboots2u

Hairy_Hogg said:


> I was using a Graef conical burr grinder before that with similar challenges though. Appreciate what you are saying about the Hario grinder, I also have the slim and cannot dial that in. Enough people on YouTube seem to be able to though


You are stuck between the step on either grinder

that means the variables you have at your disposal to change flow are

amount of coffee being used and how hard you are tamping

Youtube smootube- are you looking to invest in a decent espresso grinder ? the harios are not a long term solution to tasty espresso

Plus, its more than likely, that you have different coffee and doses to the lips you are looking at

Once you have got something that is useable then the variables will be entirely down to your technique ( as i suspect it may have been with the greaf ? )

Weigh in > weigh out > use the variables you have

Get a better grinder


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## Hairy_Hogg

I suppose the YouTube point was that I could see people getting 25 - 30 second extractions with their Harios. I knew I would need to spend more on a better grinder but wanted to try and at least give myself some faith in the gaggia first with the hand grinder before investment even if it was average in the cup.

There is a cheap MC2 in the for sale section, what are they like to dial in to get used to espresso making?


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## Hairy_Hogg

I have ordered a kilo of the same beans from Rave, Brazil Irmas Pereira, of which I have asked for 350g to come pre ground (I know it is not good but I want to see and taste properly ground to get my head around that)

@Mrboots2u (or anyone else) - what are your thoughts on an MC2 for getting used to grinding?


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## Mrboots2u

Hi sorry I haven't used an mc2 . Plenty on here have tho . Sure you'll get some feedback on them


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## Hairy_Hogg

Well I got the MC2, should arrive end of next week.

Ordered a Kilo of Brazilian beans from Rave after chatting to them about a good starter bean that would work well for espresso and V60. They espresso ground some of these beans for me as I am grinderless at the moment, this was A) so I could test me Gaggia and b) so I could see the grind size for future reference (I appreciate they will go stale very quickly...)

Just had a great espresso that took 30 seconds to pull so am a happy bunny.


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## akiller

Mrboots2u said:


> Sorry didnt realise you were using a skerton
> 
> the steps on that grinder are big - and in all honesty it's not really suitable for espresso - i am not suprised you are having a tough time with it and getting frustrated - its just not up to it.


Like the OP I'm very new to the DIY espresso game (about four weeks since I got my Gaggia!) but for what it's worth - if it's worth it given the OP has now bought a far superior grinder - I'm quite happy with my skerton after having done the stepless mod. I'm now able to fully adjust the grind to easily get it fine enough for a 25 second shot of the correct amount.

I used a nylock nut which I had in the garage (a nylock nut shouldn't unscrew by its-self once you've set it like a normal nut might so it's worth it). You can pick them up for pennies from Screwfix or eBay or somewhere. All you need is a single nut to do the mod and that's it. I'm not sure if I used an M8 or a M10 nut, I'm sure it was an M10 even though that guide says M8.

Whilst I'm sure the purists will frown on me for doing it this way it works for at this moment in time, and that's what matters







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## Hairy_Hogg

@akiller - I almost managed to get around to ordering some of these bits off ebay, but there are a few other mods for the Skerton detailed here that you may be interested in (the nylon nut mod is also on that thread)


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## akiller

Thanks for the link, I'll check them out. Got to love meddling with things







.


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