# What do you think about civet coffee ?



## riestagema (Jan 14, 2013)

Hi, i wanna introduce this, i've got produce this arabica civet coffe from my farm, have you ever taste this kind of coffe and how's about it ?

I've already try this one and the aroma is good and of course the taste as well. So, what do you think about it ?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I think it tastes like misplaced SPAM!


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## riestagema (Jan 14, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> I think it tastes like misplaced SPAM!


Ah, thanks for the reply mate, so where the right place is ?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

They keep the civets in very bad conditions a lot of the time, they are caged and not free range.


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## mike 100 (Jul 15, 2010)

riestagema said:


> Ah, thanks for the reply mate, so where the right place is ?


Who's going to be the one to tell him where:act-up:


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

mike 100 said:


> Who's going to be the one to tell him where:act-up:


I tried to avoid it


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## riestagema (Jan 14, 2013)

Looks like i should closed this thread, i don't know, am i doing something wrong here ?, i just wanna asking about your opinion and i feel all of you not so friendly with new member. But thanks by the way for the replies i really appreciate that.

Note : All the civets i have is well treated even some of them got breed on my cage.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Keeping and breeding any wild animal in captivity can be considered immoral. The overpriced civet coffe often leads to exploitation of these animals and is always frowned upon by people who know much about it, on these forums that is just about everyone.

Your assurances are I'm afraid meaningless, members here would prefer to have a responsibly sourced normal coffee and negate the risks of exploitation of animals. Not to mention at a reasonable price.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

The general consensus on a number of forums is that Civet coffee (aka Kopi Luwak), Elephant Poo Coffee, Muntjac and Jacu coffee are all gimmicks.

There is a movement towards not supporting resellers of the coffee here in the UK by various sectors so it's probably not worth trying to advertise as most posts are likely to be met with derision.

Your best route to market is through buyers, many of whom understand the backlash, and increasingly it is more difficult for them to sell it to aficionados.

Don't get me wrong, there is a market, but this is not the right demographic to pitch to.


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## riestagema (Jan 14, 2013)

D_Evans said:


> Keeping and breeding any wild animal in captivity can be considered immoral. The overpriced civet coffe often leads to exploitation of these animals and is always frowned upon by people who know much about it, on these forums that is just about everyone.
> 
> Your assurances are I'm afraid meaningless, members here would prefer to have a responsibly sourced normal coffee and negate the risks of exploitation of animals. Not to mention at a reasonable price.


Thanks for the reply, imagine this, if you kept wild animal in your home as a pet could it be considered as an immoral ?, i don't think we should make a big deal out of it. It's just like folks keeping their pets at home. I think we should be fair about this.

I never overpriced it, it's rational and based from how much the cost for caring the civets i have, including the vaccine, food, nutrition, vitamin, fruits for their snacks etc. Maybe if you have much time to spend, you can see my farm from different perpective. Thanks.


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## riestagema (Jan 14, 2013)

Glenn said:


> The general consensus on a number of forums is that Civet coffee (aka Kopi Luwak), Elephant Poo Coffee, Muntjac and Jacu coffee are all gimmicks.
> 
> There is a movement towards not supporting resellers of the coffee here in the UK by various sectors so it's probably not worth trying to advertise as most posts are likely to be met with derision.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice Glenn, i really appreciate that. I really don't know what the gimmick you mentioned, but i think that's not gimmicks at all. Don't worry i know this, just let me live with derision will you ?

I have simple analogy here, to breed cow and kill their meat is that ok ? or chicken or lamb ?, some people eat dogs, is that ok ? in Kazakhstan people eat horse. So dog is a pet can't eat, how about cow, chicken, lamb is not a pet can eat ? we eat it..., but why drink coffee from civet poops is not ok ?. They all same&#8230;the same way they breed chicken, cage then make them eat all the time, take their eggs and eat their meat at the end.

Maybe all of this is just business competition aren't they ?

Oh ya, by the way Glenn, as the forum admin feel free if you want to close this thread.


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## riestagema (Jan 14, 2013)

aaronb said:


> They keep the civets in very bad conditions a lot of the time, they are caged and not free range.


I find it more cruel force feeding chickens and cows to fatten them up for you to eat. Why not write toward the animal cruelty of farmed cows and chickens to produce your hamburgers or fried chicken ?


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## mike 100 (Jul 15, 2010)

riestagema said:


> I find it more cruel force feeding chickens and cows to fatten them up for you to eat. Why not write toward the animal cruelty of farmed cows and chickens to produce your hamburgers or fried chicken ?


The title of this thread which you started is What do you think about civet coffee? I think you have your answer.

If you are still in doubt search this forum and check out previous posts/threads (Mike Hag's comes to mind) on this very subject I think you may find it of interest.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

riestagema said:


> Thanks for the reply, imagine this, if you kept wild animal in your home as a pet could it be considered as an immoral ?, i don't think we should make a big deal out of it. It's just like folks keeping their pets at home. I think we should be fair about this.
> 
> I never overpriced it, it's rational and based from how much the cost for caring the civets i have, including the vaccine, food, nutrition, vitamin, fruits for their snacks etc. Maybe if you have much time to spend, you can see my farm from different perpective. Thanks.


I think it's more that the perception is the civets roam free and only eat the ripest coffee beans when they choose, then the reality is they are (sometimes) kept in cages and fed any coffee beans. These are then sold at 10 times the price of speciality coffee.

FWIW I've been to Indonesia and animals were treated far more humanely then in India, and the people I met were mostly honest and very nice so please don't feel I am taking a dig at you, there's just a lot of stigma attached to Kopi Luwak.


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## jimrobo (Aug 5, 2011)

I'd rather have mellow birds


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## morse1982 (Jan 14, 2013)

Civet coffee is very much a luxury item. I know that there are a lot of people who drink this coffee regularly, but it's never going to be a staple kind of coffee in households. I think catching civet cats and locking them up for the production of this coffee is inhumane and unnecessary.I also completely agree with the article that the idea of a civet cat farm completely undermines the value of civet coffee. The point is to utilize the coffee beans that civets have picked out to eat in the wild. By keeping these animals in cages and feeding them coffee beans, the actual quality of the coffee is being reduced.


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## mike 100 (Jul 15, 2010)

jimrobo said:


> I'd rather have mellow birds


Steady on!


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

Not shit coated beans again!! Elephants, Civet i doesn't mater what animal it comes from its just a gimmick and as there are so may lovely coffees from around the world that haven't come out of something arse why bother with them??

Just my thoughts!!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

riestagema said:


> Thanks for the reply, imagine this, if you kept wild animal in your home as a pet could it be considered as an immoral ?, i don't think we should make a big deal out of it. It's just like folks keeping their pets at home. I think we should be fair about this.
> 
> I never overpriced it, it's rational and based from how much the cost for caring the civets i have, including the vaccine, food, nutrition, vitamin, fruits for their snacks etc. Maybe if you have much time to spend, you can see my farm from different perpective. Thanks.


If you could start up a company that could show its ethics and commitment to the environment and its animals and be totally open with its production line you MIGHT find a market. My guess would be that those people who are concerned about the animals welfare would say that it is immoral to keep ANY wild animal in captivity (cows, dogs, chicken etc are a domesticated animal, they are not being kept from their natural wild environment, their natural environment IS captivity. Even then a lot of people are vegetarians for the exact reason that they are still not kept in good conditions) and those who dont care about the captivity of the animal will already be buying their civet coffee from the supplier that doesn't give a toss and drives costs down by keeping its animals in terrible conditions.

If you succeed and your business grows this means that you will need more Civets. This means you will either have to pay for them to be captured and removed form the wild or breed more. Neither of these are positive options. The former is the worse, taking an animal from its natural habitat, and I would hope you never consider this. The latter means you are breeding animals into captivity, they will have a habitat far smaller that their natural habitat, they will be bread for a commercial purpose and their lives will be subject to the success of your business. What happens if you go bust? What happens if there is another global downturn and the want for your coffee goes down? Are you going to pay out of your own pocket to feed the many Civet you keep to make your coffee? In this situation you only have one choice that makes sense commercially - put down your exces Civet, or release them to a certain death in a wild they are not used to.

Look, you may not be a bad person, and maybe you really want to do the best by your animals. But it has been the case far too often in the past that animal welfare has come second to commercial gain, decision are made about money and not about welfare. Those of us who are aware of this will never support the growth of an industry that carries such a high probability of animal exploitation, even if it is not by you, the more success the industry gains the greater the chance for all of the above things becomes.

You are preaching to the wrong audience here, we believe it to be a gimmick because we enjoy a nice cup of coffee, and paying 10-20 times the price for one with a slightly different flavour is not worth it when there are hundreds of flavours to explore already. It is simply not 10-20x BETTER than normal coffee.


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## marbeaux (Oct 2, 2010)

Let's put it this way. There are so many lovely coffees World wide, why woud anyone want to brew and drink second hand coffee that came out of an animals backside. I know that Vietnamese people drink it but they also eat dog meat!

More interesting to me, a novice, is that I'm still trying different coffee beans and improving my techique:time-out:


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## Rob2444 (Jan 23, 2013)

I first became informed about Kopi Luwak in the movie "Bucket List." Probably not alone. However I have never tasted it but my imagination does flips when I think about it. In fact I think about changing my daughter's diapers and gagging. Not fair to your coffee but I doubt that I am alone with this analogy. It's got to be an acquired taste and one that I am not going to acquire anytime soon. However this is not fair to you but it is honest from my perspective. PERHAPS......when I get tired of tasting marvelous Kenya, Ethiopian, Yemen, Indonesian and Central American special grade coffees I will try it. Civet coffee is a niche coffee and I hope you are highly successful with your venture.



riestagema said:


> Hi, i wanna introduce this, i've got produce this arabica civet coffe from my farm, have you ever taste this kind of coffe and how's about it ?
> 
> I've already try this one and the aroma is good and of course the taste as well. So, what do you think about it ?


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## peteches (Feb 10, 2013)

Hi,

I'm a newbie to coffee and kinda got interested in roasting at home about 6-8 months ago. My wife is Indonesian (from Java) and she told me about how her mum used to roast coffee at home in large clay bowls above a fire. I just thought that sounded fun and loving the small of fresh coffee (who doesnt?) decided to try it myself - bought a clay bowl, various green bean varieties and have been trying things out, like you do.

Anyhow, the last time we were in indonesia (Java) I finally drank some Kopi Luwak at my brother-in-laws house, as I'd expressed an interest in trying it. He lives in Jember, East Java, so I assume they were Arabica beans. It really did taste different from any other coffee i'd tried before. I'm not a connoiseur of coffee by an stretch, but I'd describe it as being really smooth, almost like a creamy nutty caramel taste(?!). My wife's just been out to Java to visit her parents and is bringing some green beans back to the UK next week, so Im really looking forward to roasting them at home to see if I can get the same taste!









One point I'd like to pick up on is that Luwak isnt just a gimmic designed to get "westerners" to pay over-the-odds for ordinary coffee - a label it often appears get on forums etc. People do genuinely drink it in Indonesia, normal everyday people, for its flavour - so I think it gets a bit of a poor rap over here. I think the trouble is that it is bloomin expensive over here and when I've looked at getting some back over here its sold on random websites - Firebox?! - which doesn't fill you with confidence!

I also went out around some farms/plantations where the beans were "produced/pooped". To be fair, if you have an issue with the way that the coffee is produced you must either have very high standards re: animal welfare and live as a strict vegan or be completely oblivious to the animal farming/rearing methods used in this country! I think another problem is trust in suppliers (which isnt helped by things like the current horse meat fiasco!) - i.e. how do you know you're getting Luwak and not just normal un-pooped beans. Although, I guess once you've tried it and know what it tastes like you'd probably be able to tell. Like I said, im looking forward to trying the beans my wife brings back - to see if I can replicate that distinct taste I experienced at her brothers (perhaps he's just amazing at making coffee, and I guess if you're going to get good fresh coffee, its going to be where he lives, right near the plantation!).

Sorry for going on, I was just interested in this thread and wanted to pass on my experiences of Luwak (my opinion is that I think it has got a bad rep, whispered like its a rude word, which I believe the genuine luwak coffee doesnt deserve)... Would be interested to read other peoples views and experiences - particularly of anyone who's tried (and succeeded/failed) at getting the genuine stuff back in the UK...

Pete (Derby)


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

So you're telling me that Indonesian people regularly drink it when it can be sold for £40+ per kilo to European people? Doesn't sound right to me.

Also this being your first post in the forum on such a contentious subject doesn't fill me with confidence that you don't have some sort of interest in the success or failure of kopi luwak.

Either way I don't think you can compare it to farming in the UK which is regulated and I would liken it to something like foie gras which is illegal to produce in the UK.

On top of this a huge proportion of imported Kopi Luwak imported isn't even genuine. Until the production is regulated and certified it isn't anything other than a waste of money.


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## peteches (Feb 10, 2013)

Hi,

Well, on the positive side, I guess at least I got a reply to my 1st ever post!









Well my brother in law had it at his home, drinks it and he's a regular kind of guy - not rich by any stretch of the imagination - and my wife says that people do genuinely drink it. To be honest I dont know how much the beans cost out there, but I'd assume that (as with everything else) if I went to buy some the price would rocket as soon as the seller realised they were selling to someone from the West. I

think you're right though, saying that people out there drink it regularly probably was exagerating it (actually, I didn't say people drink it regularly!)- I just meant its not simply a gimmick to trick Europeans, like other comments have suggested. I guess out there it might be like having an expensive bottle of whiskey at home - you have a little now and again and offer it to guests on special occassions (e.g. the 1st time your new brother in law comes over to stay!)?

I dont really understand the comparison to foie gras - from what I saw they're not force-fed the berries when they're in the farm/plantation, like a goose is force-fed grain, so I dont think it's really comparable to that. They were in cages though so I take your point, its not like they're free-range, but the conditions didnt seem as bad as some of the pig and poultry farms I've seen back here.

Fair comment on my lack of posts, I've been reading bits and bobs on forums over the last 6 months or so just to find things out (learning a bit about types of beans/blends, types of roasters, roasting temperatures etc etc) - as I've only really just started roasting - and I just replied to this as I'd been out to Indonesia, tried kopi luwak, seen some of the plantations and I'm looking forward to roasting some luwak myself when my Mrs gets home, so felt like I had something to contribute (for once!)...

Pete (Derby)


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

peteches said:


> Hi,
> 
> Well, on the positive side, I guess at least I got a reply to my 1st ever post!


I've read this thread with interest. I've come across Civet coffee on sale in places like Selfridges - on sale as a novelty item around Christmas - nuff said. It doesn't interest me but whatever the views and feelings held by forum members, I think we should be courteous towards each other, particularly new members who might be put off by the occasional visceral and/or terse remarks contained in some of this post's thread. It seems coffee generates strong views and opinions - nothing wrong with that but put downs should be a no no.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Oh God, not this again? I'm out of here!


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

peteches said:


> Hi,
> 
> Well, on the positive side, I guess at least I got a reply to my 1st ever post!
> 
> ...


Hi Pete, sorry if I came across a bit bluntly. The nature of this forum is such that there are a large number of attempts at marketing various products without disclosing an interest. Your second post has satisfied me that you aren't one of those!

I'd be interested in your experience of roasting - I assume the beans have been washed before they get to you ;-)

Also, have you tried coffee from good roasters in the UK? There is so much incredible coffee on offer that I just don't see a need to bring in anything 'animal processed'. As I mentioned above, quite often Kopi Luwak is fake anyway (I have heard up to 80%!)

I can understand that you may have seen farms that look after their animals but with a developing country with no regulations over the production there is nothing to stop producers putting civet cats in cages/boxes with no room to even turn around. If it is discovered that the yield can be increased by force feeding then I would expect farmers to take up this method.

My main concern is that I don't want anyone googling Kopi Luwak to end up on coffeeforums and read messages that indicate that it is a specialty coffee. If someone wants to treat themselves they should be looking at cup of excellence lots available from various different roasters. Buying these supports the message that producers that work hard to grow coffee the right way will be rewarded, not those that are out to make a quick buck by (in most cases) growing bad coffee and feeding it to cats in boxes.


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