# Duetto II draining water.



## Jazzman (Oct 5, 2015)

My Duetto II have started to empty the internal watertank and fill up the waste tray. It takes around 8-10 hours before the watertank is empty.

I replaced the OPV around 2 years ago because of a steam leakage. (all the upside down cups on the top tray was wet inside). The steam leakage problem is gone but the answer from bellerista is to change the OPV again.

I don`t understand. Do i need to replace the OPV every second year or is it another solution.

Kind regards

T. Andersen


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Is this the OPV on the brew water circuit? Problem happening when machine hot or cold?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Are you in a hard water area...where do you live?


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## Jazzman (Oct 5, 2015)

The problem is only in standby, when steam switch is on. Turning of steam, and the problem is gone. I live in Norway, and the water here is not hard.

Regards

T. Andersen


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It sounds like the vacuum breaker valve is leaking. The inside of your machine should look like exactly this, open the top and check that it is and that there is no plastic pipe on component 1 and 2.

1. Is the safety valve, if this leaks if this leaks then the boiler will keep autofilling and use water from the tank, cups on tray will be damp and there may be water below the machine, unless the leak is very slow.

2. Is the vacuum breaker, if this leaks then the boiler will keep autofilling and use water from the tank, cups on tray will be damp and there may be water below the machine, unless the leak is very slow.

Without any plastic tubes on these leading to the drip tray, neither component leaking will cause the drip tray to fill up.

3 is the expansion valve (what you call the OPV). If this leaks, then it will fill up the tray, unless the plastic pipe is routed to the water tank, some MKII machines had 2 pipes in the water tank, one coming from the expansion valve! See second photo. Some later MKII models did route the expansion valve output to the drip tray and may have had a tube on component 2 (Vacuum breaker). You need to find out exactly which version yours is, to make sure you identify the correct component leaking water into the drip tray. As you said.



> The problem is only in standby, when steam switch is on. Turning of steam, and the problem is gone. I live in Norway, and the water here is not hard.


I really doesn't sound like the expansion valve, as that really only deals with expansion of cold water entering the brew boiler after a shot being reheated....if the steam off solves the problem, then logically it must be either component 1 or 2. Uplaod a photo of your machine with the lid off and try to include the water pipes/tank as well.


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## Jazzman (Oct 5, 2015)

Thank`s for your reply. My much older Duetto looks like this. last time, i replaced the part showing by the arrow.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Maybe you need this now.

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/izzo-security-valve-with-reducer-fe1172.html


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Just thinking out loud...

If the OPV wasn't seating properly, water could backsyphon from the tank into the brew lines. It could then run out through the solenoid valve into the drip tray. This would happen whether the machine is on or off. A simple test would be to raise the return pipes above the level of water in the tank and see if it still happens.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Norvin said:


> Just thinking out loud...
> 
> If the OPV wasn't seating properly, water could backsyphon from the tank into the brew lines. It could then run out through the solenoid valve into the drip tray. This would happen whether the machine is on or off. A simple test would be to raise the return pipes above the level of water in the tank and see if it still happens.


It's an interesting thought but it's not how the system works at all on the Duetto II. The drain from the expansion valve (OPV) feeds back to the tank using the second pipe (two pipes in the tank on that model). The water that comes from the expansion valve is just the amount of water that expands when the brew boiler is used, cold water enters and then expands dues to heating. The solenoid valve is for controlling where the water goes e.g. to the brew water circuit, or to fill the service boiler.



Jazzman said:


> Thank`s for your reply. My much older Duetto looks like this. last time, i replaced the part showing by the arrow.


The photo I took was of a Duetto II (may 2009) about 9 years ago. The arrow part as someone has already identified is a safety valve. The condition of the machine looks as if that and/or the vacuum breaker (and possibly other components) has been leaking unnoticed for years. This does show the importance of a top cover off inspection annually...it's only 4 screws!

I cannot see the Vacuum breaker where it should be, so I don't know if it's a modification done in a later production run (or a local mod) to move it, but unfortunately your photo doesn't show the entire top area of the machine (as mine did)


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> It's an interesting thought but it's not how the system works at all on the Duetto II. The drain from the expansion valve (OPV) feeds back to the tank using the second pipe (two pipes in the tank on that model). The water that comes from the expansion valve is just the amount of water that expands when the brew boiler is used, cold water enters and then expands dues to heating. The solenoid valve is for controlling where the water goes e.g. to the brew water circuit, or to fill the service boiler. ]
> 
> Thanks, you are likely to be right but I was thinking of the device that regulates the brew circuit pressure during extraction (which is attached to the other pipe going to the tank) and the solenoid valve that releases pressure from the group head.
> 
> Again, it was just a thought.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

The brew circuit pressure relief valve looks to be going to the drip tray so is a suspect. Is the vacuum breaker also going to the drip tray? Easy to check and if so another suspect.

With such a big flow going to the drip tray you should be able to see where it is coming from. If from the pressure relief valve you should see increased flow when the pump is running.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Norvin said:


> DavecUK said:
> 
> 
> > It's an interesting thought but it's not how the system works at all on the Duetto II. The drain from the expansion valve (OPV) feeds back to the tank using the second pipe (two pipes in the tank on that model). The water that comes from the expansion valve is just the amount of water that expands when the brew boiler is used, cold water enters and then expands dues to heating. The solenoid valve is for controlling where the water goes e.g. to the brew water circuit, or to fill the service boiler. ]
> ...


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## doctorjames (Oct 11, 2011)

I've had to replace the expansion valve (part 3 on *DaveC*'s diagram) on my Duetto several times as it was filling the tray. It's actually only the rubber pad inside that had become hard and compressed but I was unable to find it in the UK anywhere (you can in the US: https://www.chriscoffee.com/Expansion-Valve-Replacement-Seat-p/8f194v.htm) and had to replace the whole thing (which is not too expensive and easy enough: just take the whole T-shaped pipe assembly off by undoing the nuts).

This is the part: https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/izzo-over-pressure-valve-fe304.html

Unfortunately they were out of stock for many months at one point so I had to find it elsewhere. I now keep a couple of spares!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

doctorjames said:


> I've had to replace the expansion valve (part 3 on *DaveC*'s diagram) on my Duetto several times as it was filling the tray. It's actually only the rubber pad inside that had become hard and compressed but I was unable to find it in the UK anywhere (you can in the US: https://www.chriscoffee.com/Expansion-Valve-Replacement-Seat-p/8f194v.htm) and had to replace the whole thing (which is not too expensive and easy enough: just take the whole T-shaped pipe assembly off by undoing the nuts).
> 
> This is the part: https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/izzo-over-pressure-valve-fe304.html
> 
> Unfortunately they were out of stock for many months at one point so I had to find it elsewhere. I now keep a couple of spares!


Is your Duetto a MKII? You have to remember OP has a MKII, and although the OP has not posted the photos I actually asked for, *unless there was a mid production run change (or local mod)*, his expansion valve vents back to the tank! The other thing he said was that this only happens when the steam boiler is on, which additionally excludes the expansion valve as that's only to deal with water expansion due to brew boiler heating.

Of course unless the OP actually responds with better information, he won't get his problem accurately diagnosed.


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## doctorjames (Oct 11, 2011)

DavecUK said:


> Is your Duetto a MKII? You have to remember OP has a MKII, and although the OP has not posted the photos I actually asked for, *unless there was a mid production run change (or local mod)*, his expansion valve vents back to the tank! The other thing he said was that this only happens when the steam boiler is on, which additionally excludes the expansion valve as that's only to deal with water expansion due to brew boiler heating.
> 
> Of course unless the OP actually responds with better information, he won't get his problem accurately diagnosed.


It is a little confusing that the model version specifics have both a model number and a revision mark! I should have read the other responses more carefully, though hopefully my reply will be useful for future searchers trying to diagnose a full drip tray. Mine was sold by Bella Barista as the Alex Duetto II Mark III though all the manuals and paperwork just call it an Alex Duetto II, (and it was of course chosen in large part because of your excellent "Duetto II closer look" pdf).

It would be worth checking whether the steam switch effect is just coincidence or not. When my expansion valve started to leak it wasn't continuous so a quick test may seem like switching off the steam boiler corrected it.

As you say a photo from OP would be useful to establish the exact configuration of his model.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

doctorjames said:


> It is a little confusing that the model version specifics have both a model number and a revision mark! I should have read the other responses more carefully, though hopefully my reply will be useful for future searchers trying to diagnose a full drip tray. Mine was sold by Bella Barista as the Alex Duetto II Mark III though all the manuals and paperwork just call it an Alex Duetto II, (and it was of course chosen in large part because of your excellent "Duetto II closer look" pdf).
> 
> It would be worth checking whether the steam switch effect is just coincidence or not. When my expansion valve started to leak it wasn't continuous so a quick test may seem like switching off the steam boiler corrected it.
> 
> As you say a photo from OP would be useful to establish the exact configuration of his model.


Thank you that closer look was many years ago now and when I did the original top level design for the Duetto MK1 and testing, it was a few years before that.


If you have a MKIII then your expansion valve drains into the drip tray...but I doubt the OP valve does with a MKII.

He did check with the steam off and it didn't do it, hence why I think it's is unlikely to be the expansion valve


It is a shame that he didn't put up a better photo of what I asked for in the first place . I even gave examples with my photos of a MKII machine like his. I am also a bit worried that someone may have modified it and removed the vacuum breaker from the machine, because I can't see it where it should be, but the photo doesn't show all of the top?

I'm just going to wait to see if he posts again and gives better information....without it I can't help him and he might as well try trial and error, or take it to a local repair shop.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

For the sake of accuracy, what some here mistakenly call "expansion" valve is actually a pressure relief valve. OPV will also do. In the English world it is common to name valves according to the function they perform, i.e. diverting valve diverts, mixing valve mixes, pressure relief valves relieves pressure. And expansion valves expand - they are used in refrigeration.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

You got more problems than just water going back into the tank....Did you try tracing the tube back to the tank and seeing if that's the one that gets warm and girgles.

The first thing you need to do is trace the source of the leak/s on the boiler/s service the thing, check the anti backflow valve and the vacuum breaker, safety valve may well be leaking. give it a damm good clean (don't be afraid to remove the outer case (you have to) check underneath the boilers with a torch and fix any leaks there. My Duetti MK1 is 6 years older than yours but looks factory new inside. Yours is in a hell of a state for such an expensive machine and it needs some TLC. Has it ever been properly serviced in it's life or even inspected for leaks once per year? It needs a deep descale as well. I would also expect the group needs servicing and possibly a rebuild kit based on the condition of the machine.

Some of the stuff looks as if it's been leaking a long long time and the water used looks to be hard as nails. i've no idea where you are located because you didn't fill in your location when you registered. If you bought that used, you have some work to do, if you have had it from new...shame on you.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Permanent gurgling , when steam boiler is on, from the silicon tube going to the water reservoir is caused by the vacuum breaker not sealing properly. The vacuum breaker is the part connected to the silicon tube and should be replaced or serviced. Not clear from your photo, but looks like the vacuum breaker may have been changed already.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Jaap_98 said:


> thank you for the warm welcome!😓
> 
> 1. Not sure how you establish that the machine is in a "state" based on just the outside top of the boiler.
> 
> ...


 1. I designed it

2. I don't know what "you" mean by a "complete rebuild" I suspect something different to me. I doubt you have replaced all the internal valves, cam follower pins and springs twice in 10 years, those are the bits you need to replace now?

3. I know i'm right about that but your first sentence didn't say this got hot

4. It's not on yours by the looks of things

5. It's not the safety valve I would imagine that other valve you mention is the expansion valve. The problem is you need a photo of the entire top of the machine and sides *with the case off, *so people can help identify things especially in case any non standard components tubes have been added. Plus thy can also point out problems you are blissfully unaware of.

5. What bypass valve are you talking about, the only one I know of is on the pump

6. I gave you plenty of tips in my first post...but I'll leave you to it then.


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## Jonba (Aug 28, 2016)

That's the spirit when people try to help and you don't fill in the blanks for them, throw your teddy out the pram and melt lol


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Jaap_98 said:


> 1. so because you designed it you can tell the internal state of the machine. interesting.
> 
> 2. The e61 head has been stripped twice and all cams etc replaced. why are you questioning ? I thought forums are places where people help each other - on other forums i do the same, we all help each other.
> 
> ...


 1. I've enough experience that I can take a pretty good guess yeah. Who fixes a leak and then doesn't clean it up inside, hence I think you have other leaks!

2. If it has you must be doing something terribly wrong, because those components properly maintained should last a decade. However, I suspect you are over egging the pudding on that one.

3. Nope tried to get you to do what you needed to do. That was explore further, stop making assumptions, check the machine properly and start looking after your investment.

4. I'm not sure about the former, I didn't do the latter (until now)

5. Good luck with that

6. I'm personally surprised, thanks for posting.

I'm sure you will fix it out or pay to have it fully and properly serviced. The way you have treated it, I am sure you can afford to spend the money having a professional sort it out. Failing that perhaps you can sell it cheaply on here as a fixer upper for a few pounds. You came on here asking for help, I gave it (more than you realise), you don't have the experience to understand, your problem not mine.


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## taschukj (7 mo ago)

My machine is doing the same but leaking water to the drip tray only when the machine is cool. I can see water coming out of the tube not the group head. ....What do you think is the issue?


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