# I've listened to the members & decided which machine



## Hazey (Jul 22, 2014)

Well before I joined here I was going to buy a coffee machine from the high street based on looks & a few reviews but after reading lots on this forum I've changed my mind from a Delonghi to a Krups to finally decided on a Gaggia Carezza RI8525/08










I know I am only just starting out in the coffee world so to most of you it's a cheap machine but once I get into it & like it I will upgrade

I placed my order tonight. Looking forward to opening up the wonderful coffee world.

Dave


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hi thanks for the post

you seem to be posting it everyone minute

Ive modded off two duplicates so please leave it at just this one for now









Cheers


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

How much is it?


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Why didnt you for a classic?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

This is going to sound rude and sarcastic , and its not meant to honest , there is no other way of phrasing this though

, which members did you listen to , to arrive at that particular machine ? Looking at your posts no one mentioned it ....


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## Hazey (Jul 22, 2014)

I did lots of reading & the few posts I have made the members pointed me towards the gaggia classic which I didnt like the look of but then that got me looking at the Gaggia brand & reading up on them.

Sorry for the many duplicate posts....I've done it off my phone via tapatalk & when trying to post it kept saying it failed to communicate to the server...


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## Hazey (Jul 22, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> How much is it?


Managed to get it for £201 delivered by using a 10% voucher code the company gave me for registering & buying a machine from them.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hazey said:


> I did lots of reading & the few posts I have made the members pointed me towards the gaggia classic which I didnt like the look of but then that got me looking at the Gaggia brand & reading up on them.
> 
> Sorry for the many duplicate posts....I've done it off my phone via tapatalk & when trying to post it kept saying it failed to communicate to the server...[
> 
> ...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I'm sorry to say this I don't think it's worth the money


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=12596

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=8945

Read this thread and send it back

You will be covered by distance selling laws....


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Recommending a Gaggia Classic is not an endorsement of everything Gaggia. There is a massive difference between models and often a lot of style over substance. Save yourself some cash and stick with the Classic. It's got a loyal fan base for good reason


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Like the one that has just been posted in the for sale section!


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## Hazey (Jul 22, 2014)

They do sell the classica so I could contact them & ask them to swap it & reimburse me the difference. Many thanks for this, I can't believe what I'm reading toblnight after all the deliberation I've done regards to which machine.

Thanks for your help


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

There is a reason member here recommend the Classic and thats because it is an un-changed design capable of producing great PROPER espresso. Modern Gaggia is nothing more than Philips, aimed squarely at the consumer market, no different to buying a delonghi or krups.

If you want to start down the path to learning to make really great espresso at home then I (along with any experienced member here) would recommend you return the machine you just bought and start a thread outlining your goals and your budget and we can help you not only make the right purchase, but learn how to use it.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Noticed you posted as I was writing my reply.

Its the right decision to come to and better than finding out when its too late.

Create a topic telling us exactly what you are after and we will all be happy to help. Its difficult to get a good read from a forum sometimes. We get a lot of new people in the same position as you and we dont mind the same topic time and again if it helps newbies get the right setup for them.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Do check out the one in the for sale section, but be quick!

Much better than that thing you have just purchased....


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## Hazey (Jul 22, 2014)

Need to see if the shop will accept my cancellation first though as they may just want to swap my machine fir the classica so they at least still keep my money & I know I could argue my consumer rights but they could drag their feet.....I'll see why they say.

Thanks all, I'll let you know


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hazey said:


> Need to see if the shop will accept my cancellation first though as they may just want to swap ky machine fir the classica so they at least still keep my money & I know I could argue my consumer rights but they could drag their feet.....I'll see why they say.
> 
> Thanks all, I'll let you know


If you've bought of the internet your covered by distance selling laws ....


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

As Boots says, you have a 14 day cooling off period, where you are not only covered but the company selling the machine must cover the costs associated with returning the machine.

"Misleading advertising information leading me to believe the machine was more capable than it is" Is a perfectly acceptable reason, although you may want to think of a simpler one to avoid a headache.


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## Hazey (Jul 22, 2014)

I'll ring them first thing in the morning to see if they will cancel my order immediately & refund my PayPal Payment with immediate effect as I only bought it just before 6pm tonight so they won't have processed it yet anyhow

Cheers all.

Lesson learned, don't go for astetics lol


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

If we went for ascetics we would all have levers!


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> If we went for ascetics we would all have levers!


Nope.... Rocket trumps Lever for sex appeal in my book.









We are all individuals I suppose - even ugly people find partners.

Not wanting to derail the thread - I'm sure you'll love the classics abilities Hazey


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

You bought yerself a pile of shite there my friend......sorry.


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## Hazey (Jul 22, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> You bought yerself a pile of shite there my friend......sorry.


Say it as it is Dave, don't mince your words lol


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

oh he never does!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

froggystyle said:


> If we went for ascetics we would all have levers!


Aye, most of us here love pumping on a nice shiny shaft.

edit: Sorry, I've had too much wine.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Sorry to have to say but it looks like the Classic has gone.

Ian


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## Hazey (Jul 22, 2014)

Probs has, had already got it in my head that it would have sold by tomorrow. I'll just get a brand new one from the store I bought my Carezza from.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Wrong forum mate


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Hazey said:


> Say it as it is Dave, don't mince your words lol


Well I forgot to mention the sucks arse type of grinder they tend to sell with these machines.....However as always, the consumer Credit act and distance selling regs if you bought online are your friend. Otherwise don't use it and beg them to give you your hard earned back.

Really though....



> I've listened to the members & decided which machine


Nah...don't believe it for a minute:rolleyes:

perhaps



> I saw what the members wrote, but I decided on this machine instead


I pulled this description from a website

Finished in black, this machine would complement any kitchen interior. The *1900W output* heats water quickly (oh a very tiny boiler then); while a *15 bar pressure* guarantees a delicious coffee in no time (no it doesn't it guarantees shite). A double walled crema filter guarantees a long lasting delicious crema, with every use (because the machine cannot make real crema, because it can't extract real espresso).

A removable water tank provides easy refills, and with a *1.4L capacity* you can make coffee for yourself and friends at the same time. A *pre heating cycle and pre-brewing system* (I don't know wtf this mumbo jumbo is, sounds good though) ensures the perfect cup of coffee and a boiler temperature gauge allows you to view when the correct temperature is reached (how, it doesn't have any temperature markings on it, or are you meant to rely on faith).

On September 5th 1938, Achille Gaggia filed patent no. 365726 from which the modern coffee machine may be said to have been born (so what, bears no resemblance to this piece of crap). All products are to this day made in the Robecco sul Naviglio plant in Milan, where tradition and care for details combine with state-of-the-art technology (so because it's made in this factory, it must be brilliant, OK).

The classic milk frother on this Gaggia Espresso machine, traditionally called "Panarello", turns milk into gorgeous milk froth within seconds for a Cappuccino, a Latte Macchiato or more (nah, what this does is make fluffy foamy slop, panarello my arse). It also delivers hot water for tea (so does my kettle and that cost £15).

Pre-brewing ensures that the ground coffee is evenly moistened before the actual brewing process. Only then the water flows through all of the ground coffee and your Gaggia Espresso machine can extract the full aroma for a balanced and tasty Espresso (ha ha ha ha...they open a little valve and hot water dribbles out, pre brew, my arse.).

I just checked the weight of the machine and it's a whopping 4kg....pretty sure my just my E61 group weighs more than that. In fact with the portafilter loaded, I'm sure it does.

Ok, OK, I'm being hard on the machine, good manners dictates I validate the members purchase...hey well done, enjoy the machine!. People are even going to say, ah but with all the kit you've got, real world, budget and all that. true, but at the end of the day, it isn't going to make this Gaggia work any better.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I've done a longer post, awaiting moderation....so it surely has to be worth reading.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> I've done a longer post, awaiting moderation....so it surely has to be worth reading.


Sorted .........


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dave perhaps just saying it's not very good might have sufficed


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Like kicking a toddler after you punched them in the face dave









Seriously however, Dave is bang on, its best to hear it how it is, these consumer machines will never get you to where you want to be if you really care about a great espresso.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> Like kicking a toddler after you punched them in the face dave
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He wouldn't be able to get the sweets if he didn't punch the toddler in the face though


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Charliej said:


> He wouldn't be able to get the sweets if he didn't punch the toddler in the face though


It's not that honestly. The whole point is to stop people buying this crap....the general public deserve better.

My view is that if you don't have enough money to buy a decent machine, not to buy a toy. I wish I had known this when I went down the classic/cheap grinder route many many many years ago, what a waste of money. If you only have a few hundred to spend, go get a french press, chemex etc.. and a decent used grinder. you'll get great coffee and the grinder will be usable when you upgrade.

If you only have enough for a 200 grinder and a 300 espresso machine...STOP, engage brain and either save or buy used. This advice applies right up to the £1000 mark for machines.

Then New, use common sense and get what you really want, but also get some knowledge, real knowledge, so your decision can be as informed as possible. Often owners of 1 or 2 machines are not the best place for knowledge, but they offer a valuable perspective. Learning about how these machines work and what they are like inside is a great start. Don't buy anything you can't see the inside of.

Probably (I say probably cos I've never used one), the sage can make a decent entry level machine as can many of the good HX machines in a similar price range....but i do hate it when the mmm shiney thing takes over, heads are inserted in arses and people stop thinking.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

So Dave, what about the NS Oscar? a well respected very capable HX machine at well under £1k, the Fracino HX machines, again available for quite a bit under £1k. A Gaggia Classic, I owned one for 7 years, is when paired with a good grinder very capable of delivering a good shot of espresso, as are the varying manual lever machines, the Elektra Micro Casa A Leva, the Ponte Vecchio Lever's, the Silvia, hundreds of owners across the world can't be wrong.

This sort of reasoning is why the idea of a forum event, in which a series of machines from a Classic on up is paired with a low end and a good grinder, in fact experience has shown and taught me that in most cases and I include the £1-2k machines that a grinder can make a huge difference, far more so than the machine.

In the Southern Hemsisphere there are a whole shed load of machines made which never see the light of day here that again are capable, with knowledge,of making excellent espresso.

It is simply not necessary to spend £1k upwards to make decent espresso in your home, unless thousands of people the world over are lying about the espresso they make at home, equally it is not necessary that the machine be made or designed in Italy or by Italians, I would by definition exclude the cheap gadget style machines that rely on having a pressurised portafilter to get their results.

If you have £500 to spend then even a Gaggia Classic and a good used grinder can make you good coffee. Since the beginning of 2013 I have gone from owning a Gaggia Classic to the setup I have today for an extra cash outlay of £375, I realise I was very lucky to get my machine for the price I did, but the biggest two steps in the quality of the coffee I can produce have been from buying grinders not machines.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Charliej said:


> So Dave, what about the NS Oscar? a well respected very capable HX machine at well under £1k,


What was it about the Oscar, it's got something missing...it'l come to me, but yeah definitely something missing on the oscar. I'm talking ballparks though slip the numbers around a few hundred here and there for the machines. Oh I don't think I said it was necessary for the machine to be made or designed by Italians. it's just that there is some real crap out there for the money...unfortunately.

In fairness the Oscar does make a reasonable entry level espresso maker...but it does have something missing. I think it's missing a hot water tap....and I think NS are shitting on people by not adding one...which is why I had forgot all about it. I also seem to remember it may not have had some other bits and bobs brew pressure gauge, steam boiler pressure gauge etc..but presumably it's evolved.

in a way the expobar office pulser is in a similar class, just a bit ugly.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Plenty of people on here are happy making espresso with a Classic as a first machine. Yes it's relatively cheap and has its limitations but you can get great shots out it with a little work and if it lets more people dip their toes in making coffee at home all the better.


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

500 notes will buy you a killer setup if you are prepared to learn how to use it, classic + SJ, maybe even a royal with a bit of luck. It's also a setup that can last a long time.


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## RatScallion (Mar 28, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> What was it about the Oscar, it's got something missing...it'l come to me, but yeah definitely something missing on the oscar. I'm talking ballparks though slip the numbers around a few hundred here and there for the machines. Oh I don't think I said it was necessary for the machine to be made or designed by Italians. it's just that there is some real crap out there for the money...unfortunately.
> 
> In fairness the Oscar does make a reasonable entry level espresso maker...but it does have something missing. I think it's missing a hot water tap....and I think NS are shitting on people by not adding one...which is why I had forgot all about it. I also seem to remember it may not have had some other bits and bobs brew pressure gauge, steam boiler pressure gauge etc..but presumably it's evolved.
> 
> in a way the expobar office pulser is in a similar class, just a bit ugly.


In what way are they 'shitting on people'?? This is surely a gross overstatement, if not completely untrue, and arguably even the opposite is true. How would having a hot water tap improve my espresso? If anything, they are doing the buyer a favour by removing unnecessary cost and differentiating from the next model up, allowing them to get to a lower price point. Personally I thank them for this, as I do for not sticking it in a shiny metal case that would also increase the price.

This statement is surely unhelpful to newer members of the forum and people just starting out on their own journey of making great espresso at home. I bought mine for £325 second hand from our coffeechap, which is the sort deal the original poster and others would do well to look out for, as it is a massive step up from a Classic.

If I am being shat on then I like it ;-)


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

RatScallion said:


> In what way are they 'shitting on people'?? This is surely a gross overstatement, if not completely untrue, and arguably even the opposite is true. How would having a hot water tap improve my espresso?


I guess you would feel this way, if you didn't know why having a hot water tap would be quite useful.....and I don't mean for hot water.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Hot water tap comes in handy for emptying the boiler when descaling. There is a way around it with the Oscar, i think it needs a tipping method!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> I guess you would feel this way, if you didn't know why having a hot water tap would be quite useful.....and I don't mean for hot water.


Why not tell him then.....it would be more constructive .


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Cheaper machine = compromise. If descaling takes a bit longer but the machine is £150 that's for the buyer to balance.

It's better people have the choice to buy at a lower price point rather than espresso being the preserve of the gentry.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I guess you would feel this way, if you didn't know why having a hot water tap would be quite useful.....and I don't mean for hot water.


Dave we all know you mean for descaling but even then it's a p.i.t.a. for a lot of machines with hot water taps dependent on where they take the hot water from in the boiler, unless you have drain valves, and I stand to be corrected but as far as I'm aware there are only two dual boiler machines under £2k that even have drain valves for the boilers, one you own, one you've never used. Plus there are methods for descaling machines without drain valves, yes they may be awkward, but of course unless you spend a lot of money there will always be some sort of drawback.

I'm not entirely sure why the absence of a steam boiler pressure gauge on any machine is a real handicap of any sort, and there are plenty of methods for checking brewing pressure without a built in gauge. Agreed that there is a lot of crap out there, e.g the Gaggia Carezza the OP initially bought, and as El Carajillo recently discovered spending close to £2k on the machine that is supposedly the class leader is no guarantee of quality, I remember a time where Italian engineering in general was, in fact, a byword for dodgy quality, Lancia cars anyone?

As I previously stated plenty of people the world over are extremely happy with the espresso and textured milk they make at home with their machines that cost well under £1k. Here's an analogy you can get a pretty good brand new car suitable for a new driver for under £10k, but pay a lot more for something like a Nissan GTR and you get a car with far more driver aids that is actually safer and easier to drive would you advocate new drivers do that? The majority of people who make espresso at home either cannot afford, or do not wish to spend £1k plus on a brand new espresso machine so we shouldn't be telling anyone to go away and keep saving if all they can afford is a used Classic and Mignon. Yes this set up can be, particularly at the beginning, a lot less consistent than spending £1500 or more on a brand new grinder and machine, but it will help set you off on your coffee journey which is something we should be encouraging and not saying go away and save up, until then stick to brewed coffee, which isn't to everyone's taste anyway.


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## Hoffmonkey (Apr 28, 2014)

I'm getting happier and happier with the quality of espresso I'm getting from my Gaggia Classic (bought used for 52 quid including a stainless knockout box) and Mignon (bought new). Admittedly I've added Rancilio steam wand, done OPV mod, bought naked portafilter and both 14g and 17g VST strada baskets

I just get a bit frustrated at the amount of time it takes to make two drinks with textured milk. I also do look forward to being able to justify spending > £1k on a really shiny machine capable of producing milk based drinks back to back, however that can't happen until I've blown a bigger wad of cash on knocking out the wall to the dining room and creating a much more family friendly kitchen/diner...


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## RatScallion (Mar 28, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Why not tell him then.....it would be more constructive .


Agreed. I am under no illusion, there are obviously people who know more than me on here, I don't pretend otherwise, I am a couple of years into a journey. If the reason for a tap that is being alluded to is for descaling, then surely my point still stands? Can be worked around every few months, and the lack of it helps bring the price down to a place more people can get it. Day to day its not adding to what ends up in my cup as far as I am aware. Happy to be educated otherwise if there is a another reason for a tap.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

RatScallion said:


> Agreed. I am under no illusion, there are obviously people who know more than me on here, I don't pretend otherwise, I am a couple of years into a journey. If the reason for a tap that is being alluded to is for descaling, then surely my point still stands? Can be worked around every few months, and the lack of it helps bring the price down to a place more people can get it. Day to day its not adding to what ends up in my cup as far as I am aware. Happy to be educated otherwise if there is a another reason for a tap.


*Hot water tap - reasons for having*

1. Descaling - of course handy

2. The boiler if used for steam gradually increased the Ionic concentration. On any steam boiler regularly used, you need to drain out 300-500 ml now and again and let it refill. don't do this and you will get problems.

*Steam Presure Gauge - reasons for having*


With no gauge, you can't tell if there is a problem starting with the pressurestat, the first you know of it is when the safety valve goes and dumps it's guts all over the inside of the machine.

If this happens and you get a new pressurestat, then you have no idea how to set it

You can't tell what your steam pressure is from new, so did they set it up correctly (factorys don't always do this)

You can't tell what the optimum milk steaming volumes are, because you can't see when you're steam pressure drops below the useful range to make proper microfoam, can even know when to stop start for a second.


*Brew Pressure Gauge - reasons for having*


Diagnostics

checking brew pressure

seting up expansion valve


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## stevenh (May 15, 2014)

Hmm... this is getting a bit off topic here...

Anyways, I have the Musica which has the hot water tap but it is not necessary for descaling since the hot water is taken from the HX and not from the steam boiler, not sure if other heat exchanger setups are similar or not...

For your 2nd point, what are these problems you referring to with the steam boiler? I would like to know just so if it is something I can work into my maintenance schedule...

Regarding the gauges, yes these are nice things to have and the only downside with my Musica is there is no brew pressure gauge, would've been better if they fitted a dual gauge in, but it doesn't really help make shots better just for information and I use a gauge on portafilter every few weeks to check the OPV etc is working ok...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

stevenh said:


> Hmm... this is getting a bit off topic here...
> 
> Anyways, I have the Musica which has the hot water tap but it is not necessary for descaling since the hot water is taken from the HX and not from the steam boiler, not sure if other heat exchanger setups are similar or not... .


Steam boiler will still scale, just slower.


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## stevenh (May 15, 2014)

Yes the steam boiler will still need descaling, my comment was that the hot water tap was not necessary for descaling in my setup...

To descale HX can use either grouphead or hot water tap, to descale boiler, use steam wand...


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

stevenh said:


> To descale HX can use either grouphead or hot water tap, to descale boiler, use steam wand...


Are you sure the water comes from the HX pipe and not from the boiler?


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## stevenh (May 15, 2014)

Yup, I've worked on this machine quite a bit now











D_Evans said:


> Are you sure the water comes from the HX pipe and not from the boiler?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

stevenh said:


> Yup, I've worked on this machine quite a bit now


Yes, on the Musica they do take the hot water from the HX unit. It's an interesting design. I have considered it before, but the disbenefits always outweigh the benefits.

As for descaling the musica, it doesn look super easy to descale the main boiler (in fact not easy at all)..?


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## stevenh (May 15, 2014)

Nah it can be done... Just open the steam valve and disconnect level probe... Water will eventually come out the wand...

After a while I tilt machine to let most of it out via steam wand then flush with water a few times...

Then disconnect the Pressurestat to clear any water that collected down there and done


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

stevenh said:


> Nah it can be done... Just open the steam valve and disconnect level probe... Water will eventually come out the wand...
> 
> After a while I tilt machine to let most of it out via steam wand then flush with water a few times...
> 
> Then disconnect the Pressurestat to clear any water that collected down there and done


Ah, OK, piss easy then...


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## stevenh (May 15, 2014)

Followed same instructions I found on YouTube for a Rocket or Expobar... Can't remember...


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

All my coffee stuff was bought off here used for exactly the reasons Dave mentioned. Glad I bought what I did. I'd love to have a great looking dual boiler or lever machine (although I have no experience of either). But I think unless you have piles of cash it's hard to justify going in at the top end. One day, when I have a kitchen big enough and some spare cash I may treat myself to an awesome machine but even if I could do it tomorrow I'd probably not know how to get the best out of it. I doubt if I'd taste the benefit until I've really mastered the Classic.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

hotmetal said:


> All my coffee stuff was bought off here used for exactly the reasons Dave mentioned. Glad I bought what I did. I'd love to have a great looking dual boiler or lever machine (although I have no experience of either). But I think unless you have piles of cash it's hard to justify going in at the top end. One day, when I have a kitchen big enough and some spare cash I may treat myself to an awesome machine but even if I could do it tomorrow I'd probably not know how to get the best out of it. I doubt if I'd taste the benefit until I've really mastered the Classic.


Was the coffee I made for you that day wasted then Paul









seriously though you do yourself a disservice......the higher end kit is much easier to use and it's not rocket science to learn very fast indeed how to get a good shot out of it.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Ha! Fair point Dave, the shots from your Vesuvius were certainly excellent and not wasted on me I assure you! I also take your point that better machines give a higher degree of repeatability and better shots. I think it's an irony that the very people who would benefit from really good kit (those of us with limited skills) are the last likely to have access to it. But I think until people are hooked they're unlikely to blow a couple of K on something that their wife expects to cost £99.99 from Curry's! This is where the Classic helps: good enough to make you stay interested, but limited enough to make you wish for something more (especially if preparing 2 or more milk based coffees regularly). As and when I get the chance to upgrade I'll try to make it a major one rather than a stepping stone.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Was the coffee I made for you that day wasted then Paul
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Easy to say when your machines don't cost you anything though Dave.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

subsidised pot and ketle spring to mind......!


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> subsidised pot and ketle spring to mind......!


Big difference I haven't made snide sideswipes at others for this on another thread and have always, always been upfront about it, having even gone to length of speaking to Glenn over whether I was breaching any forum rules by doing it and if it would mean I had to declare an interest any time I posted about it, which I generally do anyway. and the difference is I parted with my own money for it, it wasn't free.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Charliej said:


> Easy to say when your machines don't cost you anything though Dave.


Hmm Charlie, you know what they say about assumptions and your making some big ones....you must know something I don't about my personal circumstances and activities in coffee. In fact thinking about it, you probably also think I do reviews for the money as well...lol


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Hmm Charlie, you know what they say about assumptions and your making some big ones....you must know something I don't about my personal circumstances and activities in coffee. In fact thinking about it, you probably also think I do reviews for the money as well...lol


Free can also mean long term use of an item without any money changing hands, and you started throwing stones when you took that side swipe at Gary and I because we were offered cheap machines after we had them for review purposes. No-one , myself included, has to my knowledge ever cast any aspersions about you receiving money for doing reviews, but as you alluded to in your post in the most recent Sage thread, being offered the review machine at a heavy discount or on a long term no strings attached loan isn't uncommon practice, Glenn also made this observation when the whole thing about buying the Sage cheaply came up, so are you seriously expecting anyone to believe you have never benefited from anything like this, particularly as you had as you said several dual boiler machines at home in their boxes, which were also all coincidentally the very machines you actually reviewed?

I've never made any secret about getting my Sage cheap so for you to infer that this was only done in order to get a good review was a long way out of order.

Lets put your advice into another framework should I spend ~£10k on a brand new basic small car as that is my only available budget or should I not buy a car until I can afford an expensive top of the range model?

As I have said more than once, thousands of users the world over would say, based on their experiences, that your view of a £1k+ machine being the only thing you buy brand new as "entry level" is an utter crock.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Charliej said:


> particularly as you had as you said several dual boiler machines at home in their boxes, which were also all coincidentally the very machines you actually reviewed?.





> and the difference is I parted with my own money for it, it wasn't free.


Sorry to dissapoint.

Had a longer post, but basically I pay for my stuff....nuff said


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

I don't often browse the Gaggia forum but with Tapatalk one sees everything so I thought I would chip in my two penn'orth! The OP (Hazey) mentioned that he had looked at the Classic but preferred the look of the Carezza. I think that there are two other factors to be borne on mind here, one of which affects me and one of which doesn't.

The first one is that of space. Not everyone is blessed with a huge kitchen (I live in a tiny flat and am really stuck for space). Not everyone can accommodate big shiny machines and even bigger grinders. Yes, it is lovely to have all this kit but it does take up a lot of space. I am selling my K10 almost entirely because of the lack of space in my kitchen with the added size of the GS/3!

The next, an in many ways more important factor is that of wife / partner / significant other acceptability. As hotmetal pointed out, it can be hard to justify dropping a grand (to take DaveC's benchmark) on an espresso machine when she sees them for ninety quid in Curry's (or thirty quid in the Argos catalogue!)! For many, as far as SWMBO is concerned, it just makes coffee (I am still amazed at the number of people who offer you a coffee then get out a jar of nescafe and put the kettle on)! My ex-wife was Italian and as far as SHE was concerned the only thing required for coffee was the ratty, sixty year-old Moka she inherited from her granny and a packet of pre-ground Lavazza! She could never understand me buying espresso machines and grinders, let alone my first electric roasters! Where she comes from, you drink Moka at home and go out for espresso!

There is also the very subjective matter of aesthetics. Some machines are just UGLY! Some machines might totally fit the bill in every other way but the Mrs wouldn't allow them in her kitchen (and it is HER kitchen in most households). Speaking personally, I think that the Vesuvius is ugly! I also think that the Sage is ugly! I think that the Londinium is very attractive! I like the GS/3's chunkiness but it is not as elegant as the L1. I really liked my black ECM! Purely personal views but my ex-wife would certainly have had words to say about stuff fitting in.

So, my sympathies to Hazey. It must have been quite demoralising to him at some point and I hope that we can put the sniping to one side and help him find what he wants, at the price point he wants to help him on his journey. To tell him to stick to brewed until he can afford a pricy machine does nobody any favours at all!

David


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

DavidBondy said:


> The next, an in many ways more important factor is that of wife / partner / significant other acceptability. As hotmetal pointed out, it can be hard to justify dropping a grand (to take DaveC's benchmark) on an espresso machine when she sees them for ninety quid in Curry's (or thirty quid in the Argos catalogue!)!


I would also factor in the general feeling of someone spending more than a couple of hundred on a coffee machine set-up when as you say stuff in Argos is cheaper....then you tell them they need a grinder as well!

I started with a Gaggia Classic and then a few years later bought an MC2 (well you could say I bought a £60 pressurised machine from Argos 10+ years ago but that was just rubbish, but was wasted money when I couldn't afford it and almost put me off completely).

Ultimately though, after i bought the grinder and fresh roasted coffee, that was the bang-for-buck best investment I made so far, yet at the time still remember deliberating why I was spending over £100 on a grinder! Hindsight/experience is a wonderful thing sometimes and I've moved on since, however I still have my Classic and MC2! Why? Well I never forgot those buying decisions I had to go through all those years ago and the joy that set-up gave me (it still produces coffee better than 95% of shops) and is what I use to show/lend to friends umming about investing in a set-up. My MC2 has actually been lent out since Christmas to a friend with a Classic who didn't want to invest in a grinder. He started using it and now gets the same enjoyment as me all those years ago when I bought it, and through some decent exposure to it, can also work out what he wants and thinks is important in a grinder when he finally buys one (which he will). The point is, some people just need to be held by the hand on their coffee purchases, not just told what to buy


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