# Extrapolating V60 ratio



## James87 (Sep 8, 2016)

Apologies if this has already been covered (it likely has but couldn't find it after half an hour of reading/searching).

I've recently started delving into the V60 and found a pretty agreeable recipe for my taste. I'm currently using 21g to 330g water, somewhere between a 1:15 and a 1:16 ratio, with a start to finish time of 3 minutes after a 42g bloom for ~30sec. Being precise on this is not currently an issue as variance between 315g (1:15) and 336g (1:16) doesn't seem to make too much difference so 330 is a happy medium.

My question then relates to if I want to make two cups instead of one... Presumably just double the quantities to keep the same ratio. However, should I adjust the grind so that this takes the same time for a complete brew? Or should I keep the same grind and expect a longer brew time (double time maybe?), or something in between?

It's obviously easy to double up the volume of everything, but is there a way to be precise over how much the brew time should increase by to keep the extraction consistent? That way I can have a target time and adjust the grind accordingly.

Thanks for any help or tips.

James


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The brew will take a bit longer, but the flow through the bed needs to be faster...going from 21g to 330g, up to 42g to 660g will still see your new time extended with a 30sec bloom, maybe aim 4:00 (average) til dry bed, then leave to drip for 40-60secs.

Set your grind for a good result the larger brew size (likely coarser), then if necessary, break up the pours for the smaller brews into smaller, more frequent pulses to normalise brew time.

If you are doing everything consistently, +/-10g is quite a big difference, all else being the same. It's more than I'd want.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

BTW I'm doing a few 40g 666g brews at the moment (Melitta, but principle is the same), I find it easiest to leave myself with 600g of brew water after the bloom, this way I can quickly & intuitively make adjustments from one brew to the next. E.g. after 30sec. blooming I might then add 3 pours of 200g, spaced 50sec apart. If that's too fast then I can try 4 pours of 150g every 40sec. Too slow, then try 2 pours of 300g 65-70sec apart.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

These are the recipes I typically use, which I took from a local cafe as they produce some really tasty brews.. Note that I'm using the Dutch papers, with Japanese papers I imagine you'll need to grind finer.

15g coffee to 250g water - 30-40g bloom for 30sec, stir quickly after pouring in water. Pour rest of water from 0:30 to 1:00. I get an average TDS of 1.35% with this method, with two notches coarser than the Aeropress setting on the Wilfa. I end up with a brew time of around 2:30-2:50.

30g coffee to 500g water - 60g bloom for 30sec and stir as above, pour to 350g from 0:30 to 1:00, wait 30 sec, pour 150g from 1:30 to 2:00. With this I find that I need to grind two notches coarser compared to the single cup recipe on the Wilfa (2 notches finer than the Filter setting). The brew time ranges around 3:30-4:00 , with same average TDS as the single cup.

You will also need to adjust your grind according to the beans, some are significantly more soluble than others.


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## antonivnk (Sep 24, 2016)

the_partisan said:


> These are the recipes I typically use, which I took from a local cafe as they produce some really tasty brews.. Note that I'm using the Dutch papers, with Japanese papers I imagine you'll need to grind finer.
> 
> 15g coffee to 250g water - 30-40g bloom for 30sec, stir quickly after pouring in water. Pour rest of water from 0:30 to 1:00. I get an average TDS of 1.35% with this method, with two notches coarser than the Aeropress setting on the Wilfa. I end up with a brew time of around 2:30-2:50.
> 
> ...


Interesting. What settings are you using on feldgrind with these recipes?


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

antonivnk said:


> Interesting. What settings are you using on feldgrind with these recipes?


You can start with 2+0 and adjust from there?


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

I will also add that I find it quite hard to underextract when I'm brewing 500g of coffee with the Dutch thick filters. Even at quite coarse settings I'm still hitting 1.3% to 1.4% TDS. It might also be that my entry-level grinder produces a lot of fines as well, would love to upgrade to a Vario with steel burrs at some point in the future. Even extraction and pouring technique is more of a concern I think..


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

the_partisan said:


> I will also add that I find it quite hard to underextract when I'm brewing 500g of coffee with the Dutch thick filters. Even at quite coarse settings I'm still hitting 1.3% to 1.4% TDS. It might also be that my entry-level grinder produces a lot of fines as well, would love to upgrade to a Vario with steel burrs at some point in the future. Even extraction and pouring technique is more of a concern I think..


Sticking strictly to a single pour regime limits your grind setting (to the finer side, in this case), if you go coarser you can drop the EY, but may need to use 3 or 4 smaller pulses.

You will always have fines, but going coarser reduces their proportion with respect to total ground weight.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Sticking strictly to a single pour regime limits your grind setting (to the finer side, in this case), if you go coarser you can drop the EY, but may need to use 3 or 4 smaller pulses.
> 
> You will always have fines, but going coarser reduces their proportion with respect to total ground weight.


For single brews, pouring everything in 30s is quite convenient where as I find doing several pours bit more work. I forgot to mention to tap the brewer a few times after pouring all the water, to settle the grounds evenly. From my testing I have found that it's the grind size rather than number of pulses that effects the extraction most. I believe you will also have higher slurry temperature if you're pouring all the water within 1 minute. The cafe I mentioned actually use water at 85 degrees, which I don't, I just use water off the boil for now..


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

the_partisan said:


> From my testing I have found that it's the grind size rather than number of pulses that effects the extraction most. I believe you will also have higher slurry temperature if you're pouring all the water within 1 minute. QUOTE]
> 
> My testing says a fine grind all in after 90sec bloom extracts to a similar point average (+/- 0.25%EY) as a bloom & six pulses with a coarse grind, at the same total brew time (3:05 vs 3:15 sec., 60+ brews in each sample).


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

MWJB said:


> the_partisan said:
> 
> 
> > From my testing I have found that it's the grind size rather than number of pulses that effects the extraction most. I believe you will also have higher slurry temperature if you're pouring all the water within 1 minute. QUOTE]
> ...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I aim to take the paper out of the equation as much as I can, for V60 & Japanese paper I can use a finer grind than say Melitta with Filtropa paper. If you normalise brew time, within reason, you can also get EYs to overlap. E.g. bloom & 6 pours works for me with V60, at the same grind setting I'll get similar extractions with Melitta using 3 pours & Kalita Wave with 3 or 4 pours (but marginally faster brew times with Kalita). If I then go coarser I can match extractions & brew time with the Melitta with 6 pours for that.

Half the time though, I'll use a fine grind with Kalitta/Melitta, bloom for 90sec & dump the remainder straight in from a kettle, for a good, but low faff brew,with acceptable repeatability. I didn't find that the V60 responded so well to this kind of method (with respect to repeatability), perhaps because the flow is much less restricted than the other 2 brewers?


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

What about a continuous flow with a flow restrictor? That seems like it would be a good tradeoff in terms of convenience and repeatability?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Flow out of the brewer is what matters, but yes, if the grind could be tuned so the 2 had a repeatable relationship, I don't see why that wouldn't work. I'm also looking at the Brewista Smart steep brewer, to see if the valve can be used like a flow control...only got as far as taking out of the box so far.

For small brews I think it is just as easy, if not easier, to keep adding small & measured/timed pulses, e.g. 9 pulses of 25g every 15sec for a 225g brew?

At home, I have different priorities to a busy café, so I can happily spend the whole brew time hovering & pouring


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## antonivnk (Sep 24, 2016)

the_partisan said:


> For single brews, pouring everything in 30s is quite convenient where as I find doing several pours bit more work. I forgot to mention to tap the brewer a few times after pouring all the water, to settle the grounds evenly. From my testing I have found that it's the grind size rather than number of pulses that effects the extraction most. I believe you will also have higher slurry temperature if you're pouring all the water within 1 minute. The cafe I mentioned actually use water at 85 degrees, which I don't, I just use water off the boil for now..


My last cup was 15/250 - 2:30, 40 sec bloom with 30gr water of the boil, single pour. Light stir with a spoon on bloom for 10 sec + gentle clockwise spin of carafe to wash filter's sides. Natural beans from Ethiopia, 2.3 setting on feldgrind, tabbed hario filter.

Gonna try it with 18/300 tomorrow.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Flow out of the brewer is what matters, but yes, if the grind could be tuned so the 2 had a repeatable relationship, I don't see why that wouldn't work. I'm also looking at the Brewista Smart steep brewer, to see if the valve can be used like a flow control...only got as far as taking out of the box so far.
> 
> For small brews I think it is just as easy, if not easier, to keep adding small & measured/timed pulses, e.g. 9 pulses of 25g every 15sec for a 225g brew?
> 
> At home, I have different priorities to a busy café, so I can happily spend the whole brew time hovering & pouring


I did do 6 pours for a single brew before, and it indeed does give good results. But I can't say for sure if it gives better results than a single pour. Given all else equal, I would prefer single pours as it's less to think about. But I will probably do some testing comparing both in the near future.


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## antonivnk (Sep 24, 2016)

MWJB said:


> I aim to take the paper out of the equation as much as I can, for V60 & Japanese paper I can use a finer grind than say Melitta with Filtropa paper. If you normalise brew time, within reason, you can also get EYs to overlap. E.g. bloom & 6 pours works for me with V60, at the same grind setting I'll get similar extractions with Melitta using 3 pours & Kalita Wave with 3 or 4 pours (but marginally faster brew times with Kalita). If I then go coarser I can match extractions & brew time with the Melitta with 6 pours for that.


Could you please tell me how coarser should I try to grind for 6 pours V60? I'm ok with 2.2 on feldgrind with single pour up to 300ml.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Don't focus on the number of the setting so much, the right setting will be the one that gets you to the desired range of brew times, irrespective of the number of pours - the grind setting facilitates keeping the brew water in the brewer for the right amount of time.

If you go back to 15:250g you could follow the_partisan's recommendation, as an off the cuff estimate for 18:300g (not amounts I commonly use) I'd suggest start aiming 3:30 with a 30sec bloom (+/-20sec total brew time)


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

I will add that I have had quite tasty brews of 250g that fully drained at 4:50 or so. I think it all depends on your preference and also the thickness of the filter. Recently I switched from doing single pours to 6 pours - and I'm pretty sure it gives me more evenly extracted brews, using the Feldgrind. I think if you have a really good grinder, then single pours will be OK, but with 6 pours seems to be more forgiving of uneven grind.

I'm still curious about how the brew ratio affects the flavour. Pretty much all my brews have been 60g/L, but I'm curious what difference would it make to use, say 65g/L?


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## antonivnk (Sep 24, 2016)

the_partisan said:


> I will add that I have had quite tasty brews of 250g that fully drained at 4:50 or so. I think it all depends on your preference and also the thickness of the filter. Recently I switched from doing single pours to 6 pours - and I'm pretty sure it gives me more evenly extracted brews, using the Feldgrind. I think if you have a really good grinder, then single pours will be OK, but with 6 pours seems to be more forgiving of uneven grind.
> 
> I'm still curious about how the brew ratio affects the flavour. Pretty much all my brews have been 60g/L, but I'm curious what difference would it make to use, say 65g/L?


Always thought that feldgrind is a good grinder  Finally I have moved to 1+10 setting with new tabbed filters, 2-3 pours. I'll try 6 pours next time


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

the_partisan said:


> I'm still curious about how the brew ratio affects the flavour. Pretty much all my brews have been 60g/L, but I'm curious what difference would it make to use, say 65g/L?


At 20% EY it'll be 0.14%TDS stronger.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

MWJB said:


> At 20% EY it'll be 0.14%TDS stronger.


How does that correlate to flavour? I'm still not quite sure what the optimum strength is for each bean..

I just did another single brew at 16.7:1 ratio, EY of 21.5%, and total brew time was 4:30. The coffee tasted really sweet and not bitter at all.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

It'll be more intense, not massively though, sweetness & balance are more related to EY than strength...unless you're brewing at such a high/low ratio that it prevents you from hitting your desired EY (65g/l should be fine, but if you overshoot to say 21.5% that may be a hefty cup...you might love it however?).


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## barnfather (Dec 22, 2016)

What beans would you suggest for the v60?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

barnfather said:


> What beans would you suggest for the v60?


What flavours do you enjoy.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

I have been doing a lot of 30g/500g brews lately with the V02. I find that with 30g, the bed is quite deep and extraction happens easier than compared to my single brews. I'm using the thick dutch filters. I'm now doing 6 pours (roughly every 20-25sec) for each size - as I find more pour gives me the more even extraction and more consistent results.

To get TDS around 1.35% for 500g brews, I'm finding I have to grind fairly coarse - 2.8-2.12 on the Feldgrind for double brews. For single brews, it's between 2.4-2.8. Grinding coarser for more soluble beans. Total brew time for 500g brews is around 4 minutes, with the last pour at 2:50.


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## shayne.herriott (Jan 15, 2017)

I'm a big of fan of experimenting yourself - I personally have settled on using 32g for 500ml of water, after trying a lot more and a lot less


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## slamm (Nov 26, 2016)

Can anyone tell me if the Dutch filters referred to here usually have a 'V60' imprint?


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## slamm (Nov 26, 2016)

answer came in another post - yes it does, thanks @Step21.


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