# Mythos One Development - Colin Harmon



## Mrboots2u

Hi I saw this being discussed on " another forum .." though it might of interest to some on here.

Colins presentation on the development of the mythos one...

http://www.tampertantrum.com/tamper-tantrum-lite-the-fumbally-colin-harmon/


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## garydyke1

Damn it ! I missed this first time round, cheers!


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## Mrboots2u

"Pocket science " could be a new tag line on a lot of coffee forums ...

If you are into grinder science , i would really recommend watching this ..


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## grumpydaddy

Thoroughly enjoyable watch that touched on so many aspects. Thanks


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## aaronb

grumpydaddy said:


> Thoroughly enjoyable watch that touched on so many aspects. Thanks


Really all the TamperTantrum talks are worth a watch, lots to learn and think about if you like coffee a lot.


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## grumpydaddy

So I see. The mention of burr grind geometry being one of many factors to consider did make me want to gather pics to compare the mundane with the more successful makes of grinder.... but that is just my way of thinking.


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## samjfranklin

Really interesting talk - I watched the whole thing start to finish. That is one awesome grinder.


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## Terranova

samjfranklin said:


> That is one awesome grinder.


I find the grinder the less interesting thing in the whole video.

But the rest was really cool, getting better extractions with "soap water washed" burrs.... this is crazy.

On the next WBC there might be some folks washing their burrs.

Also I didn't imagine that a 3um thick coating has such an influence in extraction yield. (sure it has in long term)


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## Steve7

It's just a grinder.

Good advert, though.


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## garydyke1

If I owned a shop I wouldn't want any other grinder TBH


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## aaronb

Steve7 said:


> It's just a grinder.
> 
> Good advert, though.


Disagree entirely, you can brew a tasty espresso on a Gaggia Classic to a Londinium I to a KvdW, but the most important factor in that espresso is the grinder. Far more important than the machine.

There also really hasn't been much advancement in grinders at all compared to everything else, or looking at ways they can make grinders better.


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## The Systemic Kid

Think it was a Clima Pro we got to try out at HasBean's open day in September. It was pretty impressive and surprisingly compact too.


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## Mrboots2u

The Systemic Kid said:


> Think it was a Clima Pro we got to try out at HasBean's open day in September. It was pretty impressive and surprisingly compact too.


And at cup north


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## The Systemic Kid

Mrboots2u said:


> And at cup north


Oops - forgot about that


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## Mrboots2u

The Systemic Kid said:


> Oops - forgot about that


You talked to that guy about it for like half an hour.....and pulled s couple of shots from it....


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## Steve7

aaronb said:


> Disagree entirely, you can brew a tasty espresso on a Gaggia Classic to a Londinium I to a KvdW, but the most important factor in that espresso is the grinder. Far more important than the machine.
> 
> There also really hasn't been much advancement in grinders at all compared to everything else, or looking at ways they can make grinders better.


i don't see how this advances on what is already available. Of course, good grinders matter, but this is just another good grinder.

Heated, and less waste in the chute. Otherwise it has the same spinning metal.

That at was my point.


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## jeebsy

It's the first to heat the grinds up.


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## MWJB

Steve7 said:


> i don't see how this advances on what is already available. Of course, good grinders matter, but this is just another good grinder.
> 
> Heated, and less waste in the chute. Otherwise it has the same spinning metal.
> 
> That at was my point.


Well, 2 points stand out to me as advancements, it's heated & there's less waste in the chute.


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## coffeechap

I think any development in grinders is a great thing, perhaps more of the industry big players will start to think more about grinders, the mythos before this was a great grinder with very low retention, so it makes sense that the guys worked with simonelli as the likes of mazzer just can't be arsed.


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## aaronb

Steve7 said:


> i don't see how this advances on what is already available. Of course, good grinders matter, but this is just another good grinder.
> 
> Heated, and less waste in the chute. Otherwise it has the same spinning metal.
> 
> That at was my point.


Did you watch the video? it has a lot of thought put into it to combat changing grind through service, so busy coffee shops can knock out much more consistent shots without having to constantly dial in as pressures affect the grind. They also tried lots of different burrs with their own coffee to really see what had the best outcome.

I honestly think (with the exception of the EK43 related stuff) this is the biggest advancement in grinders for ages. Its not the end and maybe not all that relevant for home users but its significant progress.


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## samjfranklin

aaronb said:


> Did you watch the video? it has a lot of thought put into it to combat changing grind through service, so busy coffee shops can knock out much more consistent shots without having to constantly dial in as pressures affect the grind. They also tried lots of different burrs with their own coffee to really see what had the best outcome.
> 
> I honestly think (with the exception of the EK43 related stuff) this is the biggest advancement in grinders for ages. Its not the end and maybe not all that relevant for home users but its significant progress.


Have to agree with this view.

It will not be applicable to home users, whether that be filter or espresso - but I think it has several advantageous features. If I was ever owning a cafe, this would be short listed for grinders definitely! They estimate 15% waste of all the coffee you buy; the mythos one, supposedly, cuts that down. Over a couple of years I'm sure the grinder would pay off.


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## garydyke1

samjfranklin said:


> Have to agree with this view.
> 
> It will not be applicable to home users, whether that be filter or espresso


Yeah what idiot would buy something like an EK for home









But seriously - seeking the best grind quality (and thus cup quality) is a reasonable consideration for home users too


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## Neill

Mrboots2u said:


> You talked to that guy about it for like half an hour.....and pulled s couple of shots from it....


And there was a caption competition of a photo of Patrick using the mythos!


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## garydyke1

The Systemic Kid said:


> Think it was a Clima Pro we got to try out at HasBean's open day in September. It was pretty impressive and surprisingly compact too.


yeah that was an antique mk1


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## Steve7

Any commercial coffee shop does just fine with a super jolly. He waste is negligible, in all honesty.

Yep, this has some tweaks, but it is like hifi and the benefits are incrementally smaller.

I was was just giving an alternative opinion that cuts through the hype. I have no doubt there was a lot of thought put into this model, but I am sceptical it is the revolution it was pitched as.

You Have to be sceptical or you will all die of sycophancy.

This appeals to perfectionists, and has a place in getting it right, but as a mass market grinder it won't make any difference to the majority of coffee shop users who are about cash first and perfection a distant second.

I can can see it flourishing in niche outlets and fanboy homes.

i don't doubt it may be better, but much better I doubt a lot.


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## coffeechap

Steve7 said:


> Any commercial coffee shop does just fine with a super jolly. He waste is negligible, in all honesty.
> 
> Yep, this has some tweaks, but it is like hifi and the benefits are incrementally smaller.
> 
> I was was just giving an alternative opinion that cuts through the hype. I have no doubt there was a lot of thought put into this model, but I am sceptical it is the revolution it was pitched as.
> 
> You Have to be sceptical or you will all die of sycophancy.
> 
> This appeals to perfectionists, and has a place in getting it right, but as a mass market grinder it won't make any difference to the majority of coffee shop users who are about cash first and perfection a distant second.
> 
> I can can see it flourishing in niche outlets and fanboy homes.


Seriously?

The super jolly is an entry level mediocre grinder (in the world of decent grinders) and most coffee shops have them because they don't know any different! Perhaps education of shops would lead them to getting better grinders and a better resulting coffee, but then most shops are happy to churn out cheap shite, if that's what you like and do then great, but I would rather get a great cup and make a great cup.


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## MWJB

Steve7 said:


> You Have to be sceptical or you will all die of sycophancy.


I'm not sure I believe that.


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## Steve7

Ok.

Send me all £1000 and I will send you a gizmo that will revolutionise coffee.

Don't believe me?

I adore great coffee and you are all missing my point. I agree it is a better grinder but I seriously question anyone who can't take critical opinion without seeing it as a personal attack on "coffee".

Just think a little more science is necessary sometimes as it tends to beat a power point for fact.

When you have blind tasted it against other grinders then preach about it being great. Right now you are making an assumption based on a video.


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## Glenn

Before writing off (or forming any opinion on) any grinder it's best to get hands one with one. Not just for a shot, but for an hour or so, with a bean and a machine you know


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## aaronb

Steve7 said:


> He waste is negligible, in all honesty.


Completely disagree again, calculations done by 3fe in the talk, and in a talk done by the owner of Kaffeine in London a few years ago about waste show that people think its negligible but is actually huge and soon amounts to quite a bit of money. A grinder that minimises waste could pay for itself in less than a year in a busy coffee shop.

Plus the massive increase in quality and then taste over a superjolly.

Starbucks manage just fine with fully auto machines...

If it was just a gimmick I'd agree with you, but again I don't think you watched the full video because the science is there and referenced. OK, Maybe not in great detail but that wasn't really the point of the talk.

Im not saying every coffee shop should go out and buy one right now before its had time in the industry to prove itself, but for speciality coffee shops this is an advancement.


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## MWJB

Steve7 said:


> Ok.
> 
> Send me all £1000 and I will send you a gizmo that will revolutionise coffee.
> 
> Don't believe me?
> 
> I adore great coffee and you are all missing my point. I agree it is a better grinder but I seriously question anyone who can't take critical opinion without seeing it as a personal attack on "coffee".
> 
> Just think a little more science is necessary sometimes as it tends to beat a power point for fact.
> 
> When you have blind tasted it against other grinders then preach about it being great. Right now you are making an assumption based on a video.


I've sent you £1022.50, y'know just to make sure you get the job done without having to come back for more. ;-)

Seriously, can you point us to any grinder article that has more data on it's real world performance?


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## jeebsy

So if it's a better grinder, and a shop wants to be better, what's the problem?


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## Steve7

Did I say it wasn't an advancement?

Anyway, I will shut up as I don't want to perpetuate this. I have made the point I wanted to.


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## coffeechap

Steve7 said:


> Just think a little more science is necessary sometimes as it tends to beat a power point for fact.
> 
> When you have blind tasted it against other grinders then preach about it being great. Right now you are making an assumption based on a video.


I have tested many grinders against each other and blind tasted different grinders as well, would be interested if you have done the same? I don't see anything you are saying as an attack on great coffee, if you are happy with mediocre then that's fine, if you want to strive for better then get some kit that may facilitate that.


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## samjfranklin

Steve7 said:


> Did I say it wasn't an advancement?
> 
> Anyway, I will shut up as I don't want to perpetuate this. I have made the point I wanted to.


This forum is surely for debate? Credit to 3fe and Nuova Simonelli the science seems to be there, and more science than I can see in any other grinder's release and documentation?



coffeechap said:


> I have tested many grinders against each other and blind tasted different grinders as well, would be interested if you have done the same? I don't see anything you are saying as an attack on great coffee, if you are happy with mediocre then that's fine, if you want to strive for better then get some kit that may facilitate that.


A cafe that truly considers themselves to serve speciality coffee must surely strive to get better? The fact that this has taken four years must indicate that the combination of people has put in a lot of work, and you'd hope consider everything they talked about in the PowerPoint. Grinders are so important, everybody here rants on about grinder even being more important than the machine; no grinder in production seems to have thought about so many components and details as this? Very impressed by this keynote.


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## Steve7

Eh?...

You can't debate this with me by claiming I am happy with mediocre coffee when I have said I am not, and I have agreed this is MAY be an advancement (I just disagree with how much in comparison with most posting here) That post is an insult to an educated debate.

Also, I have no idea in reality if it is really THAT good. But at least I admit that, and that what I am saying is opinion.

Your position asserts things as fact when they aren't. Work out the issue here and stop throwing in the personal stuff please?


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## Beanosaurus

Steve7 said:


> Yep, this has some tweaks, but it is like hifi and the benefits are incrementally smaller.


Have you ever been in a service environment where by an hour or two in you know you're going to have to tighten the grind because the ambient temperature is causing the shots to run fast?

It's a genuine pain in the arse and can waste a fair bit of coffee.

Re-dialling in your grind mid service can is a particularly stressful experience if you're very busy - the temperature stable burrs give very minimal variance to the grind, thus less disturbance to your service.

The burrs being at an angled alignment encourage much less retention and help with consistent and accurate dosing (the grind distribution is brilliant too).

These things aren't bells and whistles added to an existing design, they're genuine innovations and substantially improve performance.

You mention that this is a grinder aimed at the 'mass market', I'd rather believe that the Mythos One it is aimed at users who are focussed on the consistency of their espresso extraction.

Commercial chain shops aren't, they don't give a monkeys about that as long as a shot meets a certain traditional expectation which is now known to be very inaccurate.

So it clearly isn't aimed at the likes of Starf*cks etc, the mass market as you put it.

'Niche' shops are no longer becoming as so as speciality coffee has become exponentially more accessible than it was only a few years ago, with the rise of independent shops and roasters (some of which have a chain of outlets) I can see the Mythos One appealing to any one of them and a fair few shops have upgraded to it already.

However I cannot see the pinnacle of commercial grinders being the Super Jolly, and I know a lot of the commercial coffee giants get on just fine with them, they are cheap, bullet proof and can produce a decent cup.

But if they wanted to improve the quality of their coffee the grinder of topic would make that happen, not to mention the sourcing and roasting!.

I've not seen the Tamper Tantrum video yet but I know from experience of how much of a better grinder it is to use and it tastes cracking in the cup.


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## coffeechap

Steve7 said:


> Eh?...
> 
> You can't debate this with me by claiming I am happy with mediocre coffee when I have said I am not, and I have agreed this is MAY be an advancement (I just disagree with how much in comparison with most posting here) That post is an insult to an educated debate.
> 
> Also, I have no idea in reality if it is really THAT good. But at least I admit that, and that what I am saying is opinion.
> 
> Your position asserts things as fact when they aren't. Work out the issue here and stop throwing in the personal stuff please?


Ah educated debate, let's start with some facts then, have you tried a mythos? Or at that rate the super jolly you state is not a lot worse than the mythos one? You have asserted that this grinder is not a big advancement and that the incremental difference in quality is not that much. So as you sit on your throne of intellectual debate please enlighten us with your experience of grinders, perhaps I will be surprised, but thus far I sincerely doubt it.

I know as fact, that the mythos is a MUCH better grinder than the superjolly, in both delivery and taste in the cup.


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## Steve7

It was opinion.

i didn't state anything.

Back to me again?


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## Daren

coffeechap said:


> I know as fact, that the mythos is a MUCH better grinder than the superjolly, in both delivery and taste in the cup.


I'll vouch for that (having upgraded from SJ to Mythos). The difference is night and day.


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## coffeechap

Steve7 said:


> It was opinion.
> 
> i didn't state anything.
> 
> Back to me again?


Actually you stated that the super jolly did not waste much coffee, when the grind path of an sj means quite a lot of coffee sat there between shots, which will go stake and need purging. If you spent time on even on old mythos you would realise the difference in the cup, which would take your coffee to another level (produced all other parameters are going done correct).

The point here us that what us hood is that some manufacturers are doing something to improve the a rare of okay with grinders.


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## Xpenno

Daren said:


> I'll vouch for that (having upgraded from SJ to Mythos). The difference is night and day.


Yeah, but yours doesn't got disco lights though.....


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## Daren

Xpenno said:


> Yeah, but yours doesn't got disco lights though.....


Not yet it doesn't - I'm going to pimp my one up with a lazzer, fireworks and dry ice show though


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## The Systemic Kid

Daren said:


> Not yet it doesn't - I'm going to pimp my one up with a lazzer, fireworks and dry ice show though


Is that a Mazzer lazzer??


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## malling

aaronb said:


> Did you watch the video? it has a lot of thought put into it to combat changing grind through service, so busy coffee shops can knock out much more consistent shots without having to constantly dial in as pressures affect the grind. They also tried lots of different burrs with their own coffee to really see what had the best outcome.
> 
> I honestly think (with the exception of the EK43 related stuff) this is the biggest advancement in grinders for ages. Its not the end and maybe not all that relevant for home users but its significant progress.


They might have put allot of thoughts into it, but I know some places that has tested it, and they seem to think that it's not very suited for a very busy setting, according to them it can't keep up with the pace, so they are still using Roburs.


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## aaronb

There is a difference between the Eureka Mythos and the new NS Mythos One though isn't there?


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## jeebsy

malling said:


> They might have put allot of thoughts into it, but I know some places that has tested it, and they seem to think that it's not very suited for a very busy setting, according to them it can't keep up with the pace, so they are still using Roburs.


The mythos one?


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## jjprestidge

malling said:


> They might have put allot of thoughts into it, but I know some places that has tested it, and they seem to think that it's not very suited for a very busy setting, according to them it can't keep up with the pace, so they are still using Roburs.


That's nonsense. Colonna and Smalls, which is very high volume, used a Mythos One for months with no issues regarding volume.

JP


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## jjprestidge

I'm hearing good things about reductions in wastage in a commercial setting (from coffee shops that have them). One figure I was quoted was a significant increase in coffee sales with no additional beans ordered.

JP


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## malling

jeebsy said:


> The mythos one?


Yes


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## jeebsy

Why couldn't it keep up the pace?


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## malling

jjprestidge said:


> That's nonsense. Colonna and Smalls, which is very high volume, used a Mythos One for months with no issues regarding volume.
> 
> JP


That is what they are saying, so it's based on their experience and opinion, others might think otherwise


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## jeebsy

Can you elaborate on why they're saying what they're saying?


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## Neill

malling said:


> They might have put allot of thoughts into it, but I know some places that has tested it, and they seem to think that it's not very suited for a very busy setting, according to them it can't keep up with the pace, so they are still using Roburs.


Having seen a mythos one in action in the two best coffee shops I know over here in NI I can't see how that would be true. They have an incredibly quick (and quiet) grind plus the pf can be left in the cradle while grinding freeing up hands for other things.


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## garydyke1

I suspect someone had looked at 3 second grind time versus 7 second grind time and come to conclusion its too slow. (who actually stands there waiting for the shot to grind ? perhaps someone with a poor workflow)

Once you factor in re-pulling shots, purging, re-dialling in actually the Robur is much much slower and wasteful.


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## Dylan

Anyone got a link with a bot more info on the clump crusher? Was glossed over quickly in the vid.


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## Walter Sobchak

Dylan said:


> Anyone got a link with a bot more info on the clump crusher? Was glossed over quickly in the vid.


That's the only negative I have with my Mythos is that it's quite clumpy.


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## malling

Neill said:


> Having seen a mythos one in action in the two best coffee shops I know over here in NI I can't see how that would be true. They have an incredibly quick (and quiet) grind plus the pf can be left in the cradle while grinding freeing up hands for other things.


You can grind and redistribute 2 shots on the Robur in almost the same time it takes the Mythos one to grind one shot, unless your are very slow at redistributing and has a poor workflow.

Yes it takes allot of time to dial in a Robur or when you need to make a small adjustment, but you need to do that often to give the Myhos one an edge. And how many places with a very high volume are actually doing so.

But yes they do seem to agree that the Mythos one is less wasteful and easier to dial in.


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## garydyke1

You dont need to (re)distribute on the Mythos one and it tastes way better


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## garydyke1

This is 6.5 seconds for 20g. The tiny bit of spray is due it being an s40 53mm machine. Any 58mm basket and the grind is 100% neat.

Notice the portafilter moving by itself , cool!


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## samjfranklin

garydyke1 said:


>


That looks awesome. On our current setting at work on a Super Jolly we grind 21g in 6.53 seconds, so it's not that far off an on demand Super Jolly!


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## garydyke1

except the grind quality isn't even comparable really


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## samjfranklin

garydyke1 said:


> except the grind quality isn't even comparable really


Sorry, I wasn't debating grind quality!! I know the mythos is far superior, I was referring to the person that I think suggested that 6 secs was slow!!


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## Geordie Boy

Great to see people looking at measuring the sources of variation in coffee making and what has an impact in the cup. How long until someone links up a grinder to a coffee machine so that volumetrics for the variation in the time/dose of coffee can be fed back into the grinder burr settings so the barista doesn't even have to adjust the grind setting manually (a computer does it for them)?

Be interesting what other effects can impact the grinder which aren't in it's control (e.g. Humidity), must be honest in that I always thought 10 degrees of temperature change meant a big change on the HG1 settings, which is a different beast in that it always starts from room temperature (i.e. no running motor to even slightly pre-warm the burrs before single dosing). Can't really say the EK is affected in the same way. All interesting stuff indeed.


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## Mrboots2u

Didn't cimbali have a machine that tried to do this ? OR is had bluetooth stuff between it and grinder i think


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## Mrboots2u

http://cimbaliuk.com/project/magnum-on-demand-wireless/


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## Terranova

So does DC http://www.dallacorte.com.au/dc-one-grinder/


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## Geordie Boy

Maybe it's the tie-in between specific grinder and machine there that's potentially impeding any real widespread use (and it's not a Mazzer). Also wonder if it would have resistance from baristas as it could be taking away some of the percieved skill of the job. Thing is, it's probably the baristas adding in some of the variation themselves tweaking settings when they don't need to, that's probably the hardest challenge to control, i.e. through education


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## squiggs1982

I can't enter the debate with any authority, but it was a very interesting video (and I look forward to spending time watching the other TamperTantrum videos). Thanks


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## roaringboy

Is anyone else angry at how wonky the pictures and lamp are? No?? Just me??? I'll get my coat...


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## Shady

An interesting point for all you mythos owners out there - the mythos clump crusher can be retrofitted onto the original (or eureka) mythos. Just done it a few days ago and it has made the world of difference - no more clumping or coffee flying all over the place. A small upgrade with a significant impact.


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## Mrboots2u

Shady said:


> An interesting point for all you mythos owners out there - the mythos clump crusher can be retrofitted onto the original (or eureka) mythos. Just done it a few days ago and it has made the world of difference - no more clumping or coffee flying all over the place. A small upgrade with a significant impact.


Need a new thread and parts numbers and how you did it please


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## Shady

Sounds good. Bit busy over the next few days with work but will try and write up the points and gotchas this weekend.


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## Mrboots2u

Shady said:


> Sounds good. Bit busy over the next few days with work but will try and write up the points and gotchas this weekend.


Thanks ..the mythos owners will be chomping at the bit I'm sure


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## oddknack

V interested. shady, if not too improper to ask, could you include cost?


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## 2971

What is the relationship between the Eureka Mythos and the NS Mythos? Did NS buy Eureka or something? Is it the same fundamental machine?


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## aaronb

wintoid said:


> What is the relationship between the Eureka Mythos and the NS Mythos? Did NS buy Eureka or something? Is it the same fundamental machine?


I was wondering this too.

Not the same machine at all, the NS one has all the features as described in the video.


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## jeebsy

http://www.nuovadistribution.com/grinders.html

Same family it seems. The mythos one seems to be a evolution of the mythos but don't know how much of the original design it maintains (mitsubishi lancer v lancer evo?)


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## Mrboots2u

Mythos one - grind heating thing

Original Mythos - no grind heating thing

The grinder seem to be sold in USA as NS and in europe Eureka ( although not this one )


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## malling

Mrboots2u said:


> Mythos one - grind heating thing
> 
> Original Mythos - no grind heating thing
> 
> The grinder seem to be sold in USA as NS and in europe Eureka ( although not this one )


I have seen the Mythos in both the Eureka and NS versions on different webshops here in the EU. The Mythos One only seem to be labeled with NS

NS mention nothing on their official website of any ownership of Eureka, they only mention VA who they took over back in 2001

but it's normal for brands to relabel other manufactures products.


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## Shady

NS owns Eureka. They both shared the same design for the original Mythos albeit with different parts numbers. NS then further developed the Mythos into the Mythos One as per the video at the start of this thread.

BTW the source for my opening statement about the NS ownership of Eureka comes from speaking to someone from ucc coffee, the distributors for NS parts in the UK.


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## Mrboots2u

Ok I've moved across a number of posts from this morning to the link , where they follow on from the previous debate on conical/ flat burr/ who likes what and why ....

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?21158-Cynical-vs-Conical&highlight=conical+cynical


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