# Sage value discussion



## Sunil (Nov 19, 2013)

Admin: This thread has been split from the Sage White Glove discussion - and focuses on value perceptions

There's been a lot of discussion on the forums about the Sage Dual Boiler: Value for money and what the White Glove Service offers, etc. so I thought I'd start this thread and post about my experience with the White Glove Service.

First, a disclaimer: I'm very new to home espresso. Although I really enjoy my coffee, this is my first real espresso machine, so my experience and understanding is severely limited.

I bought the machine and the Smart Grinder last Friday from John Lewis (along with a 3 year John Lewis warranty for an additional £28 - seemed worth it). I called Sage on their helpline number on Monday to book in the white glove service. Absolutely painless: took 2 minutes, and I was able to choose a day and time of my preference. (They offer the service Mon-Sat, 8 am to 6pm.) They also called me today just to reconfirm the appointment, which I thought was a nice touch.

Let me know if there's any questions you want me to ask the person tomorrow. I'll also try and take some pictures to share. Stay tuned...


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Probably wise to get the extended warranty for £28. Just over 1200 for a dual boiler machine with some training and 5 year warranty seems good value to me

Hopefully never need the warranty though.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Hi Sunil, what was your motivation for making this purchase? I think it was a good move buying at JL and taking a 3 year warranty. I have the grinder and quite like it for what it is, but at the moment, I cannot see a lot of value in the Espresso machine. Perhaps you can pursuade us differently with your exoreinces of the machine.

What did you have before this machine? A lot of expereince on here so just ask anything you want!


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

David I can't work out why you can't see any value in the machine, ok yeah so it's £1200 ( and I still feel it should have come in cheaper even at £900 it would be almost a no brainer choice) but doesn't look and feel as heavyweight as the competition i.e. the Brewtus, but surely it's what's on the inside of the machine and the results in the cup that matter, if it's well made even in China it should last after Breville aren't exactly some small fly by night company and in Australia they have a string of fairly successful espresso machines in their stable so it's not like it's a brand new thing to them. I think it just offers another choice, that may for some people be easier to live with and use and because of its looks have more of an OH acceptance factor.

So far I've been able to make as good a coffee as I've had anywhere using the machine, ok maybe the shots and ristrettos aren't quite up to L1 standards but they're still damn good. Steaming milk on it is an absolute doddle I even tried to mess it up on purpose and it made good milk, it could do with having a bit more steam power available but I'm sure a firmware update could sort this, but the milk comes out with a beautiful silky texture that IF I had hands that worked would be very easy to pour art with. The instruction book is very well written and what's not to like about a chemical backflushing program where it sorts itself out and also a descaling program that requires minimal hands on compared to say a brewtus. I would be interested to see what the White Gloves service would offer to those of us reasonably knowledgeable about making espresso and espresso based drinks as so far it's been far far easier to use than my Gaggia Classic and easy to get to grips with all it's functions too. I might email my contact at Sage and ask if they could send me someone to do the White Gloves thing as part of the review.


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## Sunil (Nov 19, 2013)

@dfk41 there were quite a few things that attracted me to the machine when I first had a demo (at the pop up in Islington):


Super easy to use (one button extraction) once dialed in / set up: This means that the wife would use it as well - a big factor for me

Very easy to steam milk (I don't have a comparison point, but to Charliej's point above, i get really decent results right off the bat

Lots of features to play with that make it future proof (giving me the ability to experimentand grow with the machine rather than wanting to upgrade right away)

Dual boiler and quick start up to first shot were a big draw as both of us like milk based drinks

The self timer to switch on the machine is fantastic and gives the group head and pf a proper (30 min) preheat while we're still asleep in the morning!


Like I say, I have no experience with the Brewtus, Rocket range, L1 et al, so cant really compare what the shots are like (perhaps the most important part).

I think the approach-ability of the machine, the marketing and the white glove service gave me the comfort and confidence that the learning curve to great espressos would not be so steep that I would give up half way and be left with a £1200-£1500 machine just sitting on the counter while I continued to use a £25 Aeropress! I really do think that the Sage fills this particular market niche, and for that reason represents great value for anyone starting out on the journey who has the budget.

Having said all that, as I'm finding out, a good espresso shot is not a given, even with £1500 of equipment


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Let me qualify when I say I can see no value. This is just my opinion of course but I think the machine is aimed at the newbie with the funds to purchase, as opposed to the seasoned pro looking to upgrade from a a Classic or the likes. I am not saying it cannot make a decent cuppa, but am saying that at £1200 they could reduce the price by removing white gloves and selling the machine to retailers and letting them sell at their own price as opposed to the consumer seeing the machine at exactly the same price everywhere.

It simply cannot compare to the current machine of the month, the Expobar Leva twin boiler at the same or even close price. If the machine was circa £900 it would look better value. I have the grinder and can see merit in it but when you start to compare it to other grinders, the wholes scenario changes. They both have admirable qualities.

How many people would walk into John Lewis and see An Expobar and buy it at £1200.......I suspect not many, but, then the marketing boys come along and create a a machine with a celebrity name, conjure up some nice woffle then sell it at the same price. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. This is not meant to sound demeaning Charlie but I would sincerely hope it does outflank a Classic in every department, though I am sure you have a wealth of experience of other machines to draw upon!


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

You've summarised the benefits quite well Sunil and I hope the machine gives you years of good extractions.

The machine is totally different to the Expobar Dual Leva and it really shouldn't be compared side-by-side

They cater to a different demographic which is not a bad thing.

The Sage Dual Boiler is an inclusive machine - meaning other family members can use it with little fuss. It is less scary in its looks to a new barista.

David, I can appreciate that you do not see a lot of value in the machine, but to others there is value. If you already own an HX machine or a smaller lever machine and are looking to upgrade then I don't think this is the type of machine that you would look to. You would probably want more of a touchy-feely hands on experience and opt for the shiny metallic objects like the Expobar, Rockets, L1's and Duettos of the world. Others should be able to make up their own minds as to value.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

One of the major things from using it so far, to me , is that I can see no reason why the Sage couldn't make just as good a cup of coffee as the Expobar, and that to me is what's important not what it looks like, and I'm fairly certain that using copper pipes rather than plastic in some place neither adds or detracts to the result in the cup.

To add to what Glenn said I can see no reason why you can't be just as hands on with the machine as you can with the Expobar, if used in manual mode, what's the difference between raising a small lever on that to pushing a button to activate water flow.

It would be interesting to see what peoples reactions to this machine would have been if Bella Barista and say Espresso Underground had started to sell them before John Lewis did, as I said in another thread John Lewis sell Classics and Silvias as well, does that devalue them? I agree about the white gloves thing I can't really see what it would be able to show me about the machine that I can't find out from the manual, and I do believe this service may have been better if it was an extra add-on the same as an extended warranty as I would imagine that the average JL customer would take the option, but the average Bella Barista Customer buying one from them probably wouldn't want it.

Edit for spelling correction which messed up the end of the 1st sentence should have been neither not either as I originally wrote.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Well if one things for sure based upon reviews done so far, sage should do very well.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Sunil, can you ask why the boiler heats up so quickly? Can it make a series of back to back shots or is the boiler so small it heats up quickly but cannot cope with volume

Glenn, when you bring a product to the market and pitch it at a certain level, please do not tell us not to compare it to its peers as that just does not make sense unless you are agreeing that it is in essence an overpriced machine for the enthusiastic entrant who aspires to become a home Barrista, whatever that may be.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Charliej said:


> It would be interesting to see what peoples reactions to this machine would have been if Bella Barista and say Espresso Underground had started to sell them before John Lewis did, as I said in another thread John Lewis sell Classics and Silvias as well, does that devalue them?


Charlie john Lewis do sell them at rrp as with the sage, " never knowingly undersold" arse clearly you can get the gaggia and the silvia for less, but not so the sage


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

In regard to comparisons, they are made for various different reasons and If this was about features, then these should not be compared, however this is a forum where most people have a modicum of understanding in what it takes to make a great a coffee, not pure beginners with a pile of cash to blow, and therefore where these can be compared very legitimately is on the price point, which is very similar and therefore presents a comparison point.


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

I can only speak about the Expobar. What I love about the Expobar is the E-61 group and al the chrome. This is a traditional espresso machine on a smaller level and love that. When I decided to upgrade from my Classic, I only had 3 machines in mind, the L1, The R58 and the Expobar. I went for the best value for money and I still haven't had a bad coffee out of her! If I am going to pay the cash for a machine, it must have certain things which are seen as the basis of good espresso making. I like the process of making espresso. I enjoy it as much as drinking the coffee. The Expobar still makes me smile and it's been 4 weeks!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Sunil, can you ask why the boiler heats up so quickly? Can it make a series of back to back shots or is the boiler so small it heats up quickly but cannot cope with volume
> 
> Glenn, when you bring a product to the market and pitch it at a certain level, please do not tell us not to compare it to its peers as that just does not make sense unless you are agreeing that it is in essence an overpriced machine for the enthusiastic entrant who aspires to become a home Barrista, whatever that may be.


I think the same price point can have different markets - look at cars. For 55k you could get an M3 or a Range Rover - they're going for different markets. I can see the John Lewis crowd feeling intimidated by something like a Rocket or a Brewtus whereas the Sage will have them interested.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> I think the same price point can have different markets - look at cars. For 55k you could get an M3 or a Range Rover - they're going for different markets. I can see the John Lewis crowd feeling intimidated by something like a Rocket or a Brewtus whereas the Sage will have them interested.


Totally agree, how many john Lewis types on here though ( that would buy a coffee machine from there)


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## specialpants (Jun 25, 2013)

Glenn said:


> You've summarised the benefits quite well Sunil and I hope the machine gives you years of good extractions.
> 
> The Sage Dual Boiler is an inclusive machine - meaning other family members can use it with little fuss. It is less scary in its looks to a new barista.


+1 Having owned the BES900 in Australia, I do agree it's an 'inclusive' machine. It's much more user friendly if you've never used a coffee machine. I had a play with the BES920 on the weekend and it feels exactly the same.

As for the shot quality - it's on par with any of the Italian dual boilers. The quality of your shot will come down to your beans, grinder + skills.

As for* dfk41's* question about 'how does it heat up so quickly'. You can pull back to back quite easily - especially if you're taking time to prepare milk & the next shot. There's a few things at play: small brew boiler, water is feed into the brew boiler via a heat exchange from the steam boiler & there's a heating element at the group head.


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## Sunil (Nov 19, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Sunil, can you ask why the boiler heats up so quickly? Can it make a series of back to back shots or is the boiler so small it heats up quickly but cannot cope with volume


I have an engineering background so can take a stab at the theory here:

The Sage appears to have a 300ml brew boiler. In theory, the energy required to heat 300 ml (0.3kg approx) of water to 93ºC is Q = mCp (t2-t1)

Cp, the specific heat capacity of water is a constant, Cp = 4.186 kJ/kg-ºC,

T2 = 93ºC & T1 = 20ºC (approx room temp)

Substituting these values into the equation gives you 91.67 kJ (kilo Joules)

Now, Energy = Power x Time, or

Q=pt

However, in practice,

Q=(efficiency)*pt

No real machine is 100% efficient. Assuming, in sage's case the efficiency is 60% (not atypical for home appliances, given insulation, thermal properties of the stainless steel of the boiler, etc), we get

p = 850 J/s (rounded off, actually 848.8)

Which implies that at 60% efficiency, the brew boiler must have an 850 watt heating element to get its full water contents to 93ºC in the advertised 3 mins.

Given that the machine is rated at 2200 watts, this seems plausible.

In reality, given the price point of the machine, I would expect a better than 60% efficiency for the heating element, therefore probably lower than 850 watts for the brew boiler, but this is just guesswork at this point.

Further, if you use 60ml for a double shot, extracted in 30 secs, you would have to wait 30 secs after every 5 back-to-back extractions for the water in the brew boiler to come back up to temperature (not quite, but broadly speaking). In practice, you'd probably be limited by the fact that you'd have to remove the pf after each shot, dump the puck, re-dose, tamp and reinsert the pf, etc. which would give the boiler more than adequate time to recharge after each shot.

I suspect that in the case of the Brewtus, etc, the big hunks of heavy gauge copper used for the tubing, boilers, etc act as massive heat sinks, significantly reducing the efficiency of the heating element in the brew boiler, which is why they take so long to warm up in the first instance, but then support multiple back to back shots (once the copper is up to temperature, the efficiency of the heating element massively improves as it's only job now is to heat the water, not the metal). The upshot of this, and probably the reason they are engineered this way is massive thermal stability of the water hitting the group head.

However, cheaper and more efficient IC based PID controllers and solid state electronics (today, compared to the 1960s and 1970s) now allow for the same thermal control without huge hunks of copper. This is possibly the case with the Sage. Which therefore boils this analysis down to relying on old school, hard core thermodynamics vs newer solid state electronics for temp consistency as well as machine reliability / longevity

Therefore, I'm not sure if initial warm up time is necessarily linked to the ability to extract back to back shots, as much as the combination of boiler size, heating element power, and efficiency of heating process.

Having said all of this, I have not tried more than 2 back to back shots, so this is all rubbish theory at this point.

I will ask the white gloves chap tomorrow.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

The Sage definitely has a tough audience on here - although most of us are far more into their coffee than the JL crowd some people give it a bit of a hard time when tbh it'll probably fit their needs almost perfectly.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Jl do some nice cups tho......


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

JL is great for a lot of everyday stuff, would be unlikely to buy any electronics from them though


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Sunil said:


> I have an engineering background so can take a stab at the theory here:
> 
> The Sage appears to have a 300ml brew boiler. In theory, the energy required to heat 300 ml (0.3kg approx) of water to 93ºC is Q = mCp (t2-t1)
> 
> ...


Are you sure you don't work for sage???


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Or the open university ...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> The Sage definitely has a tough audience on here - although most of us are far more into their coffee than the JL crowd some people give it a bit of a hard time when tbh it'll probably fit their needs almost perfectly.


I think I will leave this alone, as I am definitely a traditionalist with regard to espresso, levers all the way for me, I hope people are happy with the choices that they make and I hope the sage proves to be value for money.


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## Sunil (Nov 19, 2013)

LOL, no! (In this instance, though, I wish; would have probably got the employee discount on the machine)


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Sunil ,

I believe that the brew boiler is actually bigger than 300ml, 300ml is the auto stop point for the hot water tap I seem to recall seeing the figure of 750ml bandied around somewhere but can't remember where.

I'm pretty sure that the element will be more than 850w and don't forget that the group head has electric heating cartridges so unlike an E61 no water is required to bring the group up to temperature.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Strega also has the cartridge to heat the group. I know a lot think this just another thing to fail, but in reality, I have not heard of problems.. Does this mean that from cold, the machine is ready to use in 3 minutes.

Charlie, I cannot see a boiler bigger than 330 mls being able to heat up in so short a time.

Sunil, thanks for the comprehensive answer but having read it, I think the shorter version of, 'Yes, a small boiler takes less time to heat up' would have been sufficient!


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## Sunil (Nov 19, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> The Strega also has the cartridge to heat the group. I know a lot think this just another thing to fail, but in reality, I have not heard of problems.. Does this mean that from cold, the machine is ready to use in 3 minutes.


on the sage, the brew boiler temperature hits 93 within 3 mins of start up. There is no indication, however, of whether the group head is sufficiently heated in this time. Perhaps that's addressed by flushing it before the first extraction?



dfk41 said:


> Sunil, thanks for the comprehensive answer but having read it, I think the shorter version of, 'Yes, a small boiler takes less time to heat up' would have been sufficient!


Haha... You're probably right. I wanted to say that a stainless steel boiler heats up faster than a copper boiler of the same size...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have no axe to grind by the way. If you felt inspired to buy this machine (what did you have before?) and enjoy using it then that is good enough! Diversity is the spice of life as they say. My only concern, was that the machine is quite an outlay and it therefore seems only fair to compare it to others in a similar price bracket. If it is easy to use it might spur the purchaser onto greater things and upgrade again.


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

I think Jeebsy summed it up pretty accurately. This machine is not necessarily aimed at coffee geeks like us who drool over large amounts of chrome and love to experiment with dosing, tamp pressure, extraction time etc. etc. The Sage marketing men have been very clever with these products. They have probably pored over forums like this one, finding out what things are important to making great coffee and combined them in their respective units. As my girlfriend would say, coffee is definitely 'on trend' right now and Sage have capitalised on this with products that even have us geeks wondering if we should buy one (and some of us have!).

I think we pretty much all know by now what is on offer here. Ultimately it's our decision if we want an exclusive shiny boys toy or an inclusive family friendly appliance in the kitchen. I for one would not balk at my girlfriend serving me up an amazing espresso in bed. Given the funds I've have both!









Grammatical edit.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

As Milanski says above, I also think Sage/Breville have done a pretty good job of ticking boxes in what we all say we would like from a new espresso machine. Even if its not suited to the "coffee enthusiast" status of most of the member here.

Its a machine which, in theory can pull as good a shot as anything else in its class or price range (and from the first bits of testing Glenn did, it seemed to be holding up well)

It has all the bells and whistles that actually would be nice in any coffee-enthusiast machine; PID, timed shots, pre-infusion, "VST-style" baskets, etc

It comes with everything you need right out of the box... seriously are there any other machines on the market that even come with an adequate tamper?

"A complete package" is something that is actually seriously lacking on the market. Why did machines like the Fracino fail at JL? well I would hazard a guess that they frighten the hell out of the fairly novice user. Even the classic is pretty difficult to get a good shot out of, I have seen Classics a fair few times at relatives or friends, and they use crappy stale beans with the crappy plastic tamper. My point is that most people wont head here and seek the wisdom of the helpful forumites, they want to be able to go to the shop and buy something which will make them great espresso. Atleast here they are getting exactly that, with the white-gloves service to help them down the road.

This machine simply isn't for "us" those who have spent time learning about the best makes and brands on the market, their history as espresso machine makers. If I could transport myself back to the time when I first wanted to make espresso, and I was deep pocketed enough to afford this machine, and then I looked at what it offered compared the others in its price range, I can honestly say I would have plumbed for this. It just makes more sense for the novice user.

To the OP: It would be great to get an impression of how much the guy who comes out to give you your "white-gloves" service really enjoys his job and teaching how to make coffee. If you are near to one of the members from this forum, it would be a great idea to organise a meet just after your white gloves service so we can see what you have been taught and see if its in line with the common practices and knowledge we share here.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> The Strega also has the cartridge to heat the group. I know a lot think this just another thing to fail, but in reality, I have not heard of problems.. Does this mean that from cold, the machine is ready to use in 3 minutes.
> 
> Charlie, I cannot see a boiler bigger than 330 mls being able to heat up in so short a time.
> 
> Sunil, thanks for the comprehensive answer but having read it, I think the shorter version of, 'Yes, a small boiler takes less time to heat up' would have been sufficient!


David I went away and did a little research so here goes The machine has 2 PIDs one for the brew boiler and one for the group heater, the brew boiler is fed pre heated water at 80 degrees C via an HX in the steam boiler hence the reason why the brew boiler can reach temp so fast as it only has to raise the temperature by 13 degrees or so.

I also can't see why with all its features and extra things that can be done sort of manually with the pressure whilst making a shot it can't be a fun machine to use for one of us as well as a relative novice, I would also like once more to raise the question of the Elephant in the room i.e. If it can deliver results equal to the Brewtus or better than it in the cup who cares what it looks like, after all most people would say that the Brewtus isn't the best looking machine around. I don't have an axe to grind either way on either machine, as I said in PM to you prior to receiving the Sage my money would have gone on a Brewtus as I can't hope to afford an L1 for a long time yet, now after having the Sage here to play with I am honestly not so sure which I would buy. I'm currently using the Sage manually and have not yet played with its volumetrics etc. If you find yourself in this neck of the woods while its here on my bench feel free to come and check it out.


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## Sunil (Nov 19, 2013)

D_Evans said:


> As Milanski says above, I also think Sage/Breville have done a pretty good job of ticking boxes in what we all say we would like from a new espresso machine. Even if its not suited to the "coffee enthusiast" status of most of the member here.
> 
> Its a machine which, in theory can pull as good a shot as anything else in its class or price range (and from the first bits of testing Glenn did, it seemed to be holding up well)
> 
> ...


I think that sums it up pretty well. The "complete package" + ability for other family members to use, were a big part of my purchase decision. Worth pointing out as dfk41 asked, that this is my first espresso machine.

I'm in Islington in London, and would love the opportunity for a meet with any forum members interested. Potentially at the weekend or next week. Would welcome the opportunity to have folks over for a coffee; you'd get a sense of what I learnt from the white gloves service, I'd get the opportunity to pick your brains and you'd get to play with the sage first hand. Let me know if there is interest...


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Charliej said:


> David I went away and did a little research so here goes The machine has 2 PIDs one for the brew boiler and one for the group heater, the brew boiler is fed pre heated water at 80 degrees C via an HX in the steam boiler hence the reason why the brew boiler can reach temp so fast as it only has to raise the temperature by 13 degrees or so.
> 
> I also can't see why with all its features and extra things that can be done sort of manually with the pressure whilst making a shot it can't be a fun machine to use for one of us as well as a relative novice, I would also like once more to raise the question of the Elephant in the room i.e. If it can deliver results equal to the Brewtus or better than it in the cup who cares what it looks like, after* all most people would say that the Brewtus isn't the best looking machine around*. I don't have an axe to grind either way on either machine, as I said in PM to you prior to receiving the Sage my money would have gone on a Brewtus as I can't hope to afford an L1 for a long time yet, now after having the Sage here to play with I am honestly not so sure which I would buy. I'm currently using the Sage manually and have not yet played with its volumetrics etc. If you find yourself in this neck of the woods while its here on my bench feel free to come and check it out.


Most people who get one actually say it looks better in the flesh. Everybody hating on the Brewtus : (


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## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

hi sunil - been following this thread with interest. the sage is an interesting niche product, but probably one that most of us on this site wouldn't end up buying. having said that, if i'd walked into john lewis 5 years ago and this machine was available, i might have been tempted, but i doubt i'd have forked out over 1k on my first machine. i'm sure it's a very good coffee machine, and the ease of use, flexibility and quick warm up of the machine will clearly be of interest to your typical john lewis shopper.

i live in crouch end, so not far from you, and would definitely be up for meeting up with fellow londoners at some point. might be an idea to start a separate thread to gauge interest and see who else is up for it.


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## SimonB (Sep 12, 2013)

Charliej said:


> I also can't see why with all its features and extra things that can be done sort of manually with the pressure whilst making a shot it can't be a fun machine to use for one of us as well as a relative novice, I would also like once more to raise the question of the Elephant in the room i.e. If it can deliver results equal to the Brewtus or better than it in the cup who cares what it looks like, after all most people would say that the Brewtus isn't the best looking machine around. I don't have an axe to grind either way on either machine, as I said in PM to you prior to receiving the Sage my money would have gone on a Brewtus as I can't hope to afford an L1 for a long time yet, now after having the Sage here to play with I am honestly not so sure which I would buy. I'm currently using the Sage manually and have not yet played with its volumetrics etc. If you find yourself in this neck of the woods while its here on my bench feel free to come and check it out.


There's been so much focus on the price difference between here and NA/Australia I sometimes feel people are forgetting even at the best price it's still an £800+ machine and should be making some cracking shots.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I'll be interested to see hear how the white gloves service goes . More from whether the guys are enthusiastic coffee people or guys sent into the field with limited training . If people are happy to pay for the service( bundles in the price. ) and it helps the make better coffee then so be it.

Re the price and features and versus the brewtus and other machine s , I'm kind of bored with the debate on it ( this isn't meant as being offence to anyone who comments or has commented ) , just that it's going round in circles a little bit . It's the price it is, with the service it is. You either place value on it as as package or you don't . I'm not going to buy one it's not for me .

Sunil if it fits your taste ,budget and lifestyle and needs ,and it gets you buying fresh coffee from any of the great roasters out there then cool , if it allows you to serve great coffee to other people and turn them away from Nespresso / charbucks then that's good also .

Like I said love to hear what the white gloves are like


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I do not think the machine is bad looking. I just wonder, if Sage really have reinvented the wheel with this. I guess, only Mr Hindsight will tell us.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Most people who get one actually say it looks better in the flesh. Everybody hating on the Brewtus : (


Not hating on the Brewtus at all Gary, after all it's still on my list of machines to upgrade to and I actually quite like the way they look, was just referring to the often made comment that they don't look as nice as the Rocket machines etc.

I do wonder what people would be saying if say Nuova Simonelli had brought out this machine, after all everyone agrees that despite its looks the Oscar is a great machine.

My 2 pennoth so far is that it is a very easy machine to use and as SimonB says it makes great coffee, I wonder how many of them BB will sell given the other machines they also stock.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

My Expobar Office Leva is ugly as sin... but she makes a nice cuppa


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## sspresso (Nov 22, 2013)

I have been playing with the Dual Boiler all day. The results are really good you have to have a decent grinder to get the best out of this unit and fresh beans. Once set up it is very easy to use.


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Sunil said:


> I'm in Islington in London, and would love the opportunity for a meet with any forum members interested. Potentially at the weekend or next week. Would welcome the opportunity to have folks over for a coffee; you'd get a sense of what I learnt from the white gloves service, I'd get the opportunity to pick your brains and you'd get to play with the sage first hand. Let me know if there is interest...


As Reneb said, maybe start a new thread for interested parties. I live in Islington too...We need an excuse to start a little London get together!


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Milanski said:


> As Reneb said, maybe start a new thread for interested parties. I live in Islington too...We need an excuse to start a little London get together!


Just add here that I'm happy for anyone in the north that wants to come and have a look and a play with the sage while I have to come over, or maybe we could all meet somewhere in the middle.


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## robti (Mar 27, 2013)

Charliej said:


> Just add here that I'm happy for anyone in the north that wants to come and have a look and a play with the sage while I have to come over, or maybe we could all meet somewhere in the middle.


Arghh just to far, or my brother and myself would have dropped in for a Or


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## drude (Apr 22, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Most people who get one actually say it looks better in the flesh. Everybody hating on the Brewtus : (


I remember thinking the Brewtus at the grindoff didn't look as nice as Callum's Rocket. However, I'd have bought a Brewtus rather than a Rocket on the features/price basis - it offers a lot more at that price point than anything else.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Yeah I never drink my espresso and think "if only my machine looked prettier this would taste so much better "


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

When I drink it mrs b probably thinks I wish that machine was smaller and he was prettier....


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

I actually like the look of the Brewtus - okay not as flash as the Rocket or R58 but I am more conservative any way so that doesn't bother me. As for those hinting it will outperform all these top prosumer machines with their brass and chrome and the e-61 groupheads (which are a work of art btw)- I'd take that with a pinch of salt. I have maybe been hard on the Sage machine but we shall see in 2-3 years if they are a real player in this market. The ease of use for the family is attractive to some but I think there is something wrong on a world where we are trying to take the skill out of doing something well.


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## koahhe (Jun 27, 2013)

Sunil said:


> I think that sums it up pretty well. The "complete package" + ability for other family members to use, were a big part of my purchase decision. Worth pointing out as dfk41 asked, that this is my first espresso machine.
> 
> I'm in Islington in London, and would love the opportunity for a meet with any forum members interested. Potentially at the weekend or next week. Would welcome the opportunity to have folks over for a coffee; you'd get a sense of what I learnt from the white gloves service, I'd get the opportunity to pick your brains and you'd get to play with the sage first hand. Let me know if there is interest...


You sure you don't work for Sage? I find quite an coincidence that you are based in Islington and the Sage guy, Dave Gubbin, who posted here a few weeks ago inviting people to have a look at the machine was from Islington too. Check this thread post number 35 http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?12385-Review-of-the-Sage-(Breville)-Dual-Boiler/page4

Looks like we are being spammed with threads regarding Sage lately and all of them are started by very new members in the forum.

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?12862-Breville-Sage-YouBrew-filter-machine

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?13059-Sage-Dual-boiler

Too much of a coincidence to me!


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

I'm keeping an eye on it for irregularities

The members who started these posts are different people and have shown an interest in Sage as we rank highly for this keyword. Sage is the new buzz in the industry at present.


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

Good spot eagle eyes!!!! May get a bombardment of 'new sage users' coming on!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Glenn said:


> I'm keeping an eye on it for irregularities
> 
> The members who started these posts are different people and have shown an interest in Sage as we rank highly for this keyword. Sage is the new buzz in the industry at present.


Yes the company formally known as breville have done really well out this!


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

I do have to wonder if the same machine was packaged in a shiny stainless steel case, was made by Expobar and didn't have a celebrity endorsement would everyone's reaction be the same as it is now?

We are a tough crowd for Sage.

Just putting it out there.


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## bignorry (Mar 19, 2013)

maybe if it was packed in a shiny steel case and still made by breville and had a pedigree then it would be ranking with the must haves


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

That's my exact point.... It's new and it's got a different brand name to the must haves so it gets dismissed quickly?

Lack of pedigree does not make it a bad machine? An alternative brand name does not make it a bad machine.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Can I be childish? Whatever!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Daren said:


> That's my exact point.... It's new and it's got a different brand name to the must haves so it gets dismissed quickly?
> 
> Lack of pedigree does not make it a bad machine? An alternative brand name does not make it a bad machine.


You should trade your rocket in man!


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> You should trade your rocket in man!


No way! It's a Rocket, it's got pedigree and it's shiny..... I love her


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## bignorry (Mar 19, 2013)

Im not saying it isnt a good machine ,just that it isnt proven and I think we should see what happens in time.

Think the problem is that all these people are popping up from nowhere and giving it plaudits that it has not yet earned.

This is how I see it.


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

I agree. We need to give it a chance and wait for some real life reviewers. Early days yet.

I'd like to see a longstanding forum member do a review after buying one (not me though.... I'm a Rocket man







)


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Can we please try and keep the discussion on topic.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

xiuxiuejar said:


> I actually like the look of the Brewtus - okay not as flash as the Rocket or R58 but I am more conservative any way so that doesn't bother me. As for those hinting it will outperform all these top prosumer machines with their brass and chrome and the e-61 groupheads (which are a work of art btw)- I'd take that with a pinch of salt. I have maybe been hard on the Sage machine but we shall see in 2-3 years if they are a real player in this market. The ease of use for the family is attractive to some but I think there is something wrong on a world where we are trying to take the skill out of doing something well.


Any particular reason you don't even consider that as a pricy machine i.e. £800+ whichever currency you look at it in it can't make comparable shots? I know what a damn good coffee tastes like I have certainly drunk both extremely good and extremely bad shots on my travels around the world so do have a valid basis for taste comparison despite the machine I own currently. No-one is suggesting that anyone should ignore the Brewtus and buy a Sage simply that it is another choice in the market, to dismiss it so vehemently without even seeing one in the flesh or tasting a shot from 1 is a little ignorant. I am very interested in what part of the "skill" is being removed between pressing a button to pull a shot or to raise a small lever to pull one? Either way you still have to dial your grinder in, get your temperature and pre-infusion pressure and time sorted out, the machine doesn't do those for you. As far as I can tell the "white gloves" service is not really any different to paying for some tuition on making coffee from anyone else. OK maybe it does make steaming and texturing milk a lot easier, what's wrong with that?

To address another other "concern" Breville have been making and selling espresso machines in Australia for quite a long time now and the Dual Boiler in particular has been around for at least 2 years so far, the Sage one is effectively the mark 2 version, so whilst it may not have a pedigree here it does elsewhere in the world.

As I have repeatedly said if it makes a consistently good cup of coffee surely that is what matters, not the brand name on the machine , or its cost elsewhere in the world, or what its case is made of, and personally I don't mind the look of brushed stainless steel anyway, it's easier to keep clean.

Before anyone decides to call me a shill for Sage, my objective in getting lent one of them is to offer a fair and as objective as I can opinion of the machine, the people on the forum who know me will vouch for that. I just like to see things given a fair go, as others have said if it was in a shiny stainless steel box with an Italian name on it no-one would be blinking an eye, the Oscar gets recommended to people even though that has an entirely plastic case, and as far as I can tell brass boilers and copper pipes do nothing to the taste of the coffee so why should other materials, I see people suggesting plastic pipes when plumbing in machines all the time and stainless steel boilers and portafilters are nothing new, ask La Marzocco about their stainless steel portafilters. So what if the machine doesn't weigh 30kg, the last time I checked the weight of the machine had no effect on the taste of the shots.


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

All those talking about pedigree, it is sites like this one and two or three others that can make or break these machines. The Rockets and other Italian makes have pedigree but have to work hard not to lose their reputations - a few espresso manufacturers have disapeared due to inferior products. THe Expobar is made in Spain and did not have an international pedigree as an espresso manufacturer. It earned its reputation alongside the other heavyweights in its class. I think that Sage should expect this reaction from us and if in a couple of years time, they have proven reliablility and quality, then so be it.


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

Charliej said:


> Any particular reason you don't even consider that as a pricy machine i.e. £800+ whichever currency you look at it in it can't make comparable shots? I know what a damn good coffee tastes like I have certainly drunk both extremely good and extremely bad shots on my travels around the world so do have a valid basis for taste comparison despite the machine I own currently. No-one is suggesting that anyone should ignore the Brewtus and buy a Sage simply that it is another choice in the market, to dismiss it so vehemently without even seeing one in the flesh or tasting a shot from 1 is a little ignorant. I am very interested in what part of the "skill" is being removed between pressing a button to pull a shot or to raise a small lever to pull one? Either way you still have to dial your grinder in, get your temperature and pre-infusion pressure and time sorted out, the machine doesn't do those for you. As far as I can tell the "white gloves" service is not really any different to paying for some tuition on making coffee from anyone else. OK maybe it does make steaming and texturing milk a lot easier, what's wrong with that?


CharlieJ, you seem to posted a very long rebutal to a very short point of view. If you want to know about all the problems the Breville has had then just do an internet search and find out how many Americans are complaining that their machines gave up after 2 years. Maybe these reliability problems have been sorted out for the Sage launch - I don't really care one way or another. What I will ask is what gives you the right to think you know more about "damn good coffee" than anyone else? I don't doubt the Sage makes a more than acceptable cup of coffee but I LIKE MY BREWTUS is what I've been saying and if I didn't have my Brewtus I's pay twice as much for the L1 or R58 before buying a Sage - whatever you or anyone else on this forum or anywhere tells me.

If you are happy with it, good for you and for anyone else who goes down that road.


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## Sunil (Nov 19, 2013)

koahhe said:


> You sure you don't work for Sage? I find quite an coincidence that you are based in Islington and the Sage guy, Dave Gubbin, who posted here a few weeks ago inviting people to have a look at the machine was from Islington too. Check this thread post number 35 http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?12385-Review-of-the-Sage-(Breville)-Dual-Boiler/page4
> 
> Looks like we are being spammed with threads regarding Sage lately and all of them are started by very new members in the forum.
> 
> ...


Don't want to troll or go off topic. Apologies. But I'll state again that I don't work for Sage and am not affiliated with them in any way. I first saw the machine at the JL pop up at the N1 center in Islington, which is very close to where I live. I then looked on google and found this forum with Glenn's review of the machine. This influenced my decision to purchase the Sage. Given that the forum really helped me, and that there seemed to be a lot of interest / discussion on here about the machine, etc, I wanted to try and give back in whatever little way I could, so I started the thread about the white glove service. They came over for the appointment today, and if it's still okay, etc., I'm going to post about my experience on the thread that Glenn split out from this one. Apologies again, didn't mean to stir up suspicion / controversy.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

xiuxiuejar said:


> CharlieJ, you seem to posted a very long rebutal to a very short point of view. If you want to know about all the problems the Breville has had then just do an internet search and find out how many Americans are complaining that their machines gave up after 2 years. Maybe these reliability problems have been sorted out for the Sage launch - I don't really care one way or another. What I will ask is what gives you the right to think you know more about "damn good coffee" than anyone else? I don't doubt the Sage makes a more than acceptable cup of coffee but I LIKE MY BREWTUS is what I've been saying and if I didn't have my Brewtus I's pay twice as much for the L1 or R58 before buying a Sage - whatever you or anyone else on this forum or anywhere tells me.
> 
> If you are happy with it, good for you and for anyone else who goes down that road.


I sure as hell don't claim to know more than anyone else about "damn good coffee" I was making the point that I know what a good coffee tastes like and that I have been able to make good coffee with the sage. As you have said the original Breville DB had teething issues in the USA but so have many many others as the 110v mains there means things draw twice as much current more or less so things have to be redesigned for the USA plus without wishing to be offensive our American cousins tend to quibble about things a lot more. The machine was designed and launched in Australia and there haven't been the same issues there where they also use 240v albeit with a standard mains outlet only being 10 amps not 13.

What I do not understand is your unfounded animosity towards the Sage. I certainly haven't been slagging the Brewtus off and they are still on my list of machines to upgrade to. The Sage is simply another valid alternative that has a very attractive feature list.

As you say in your last but one post it has to earn a reputation here as it is new to the market here, in other markets it is simply the mark 2 version of it and it's taken Expobar 4 versions to get to where it is now, your implication seems to be that the Sage is an inferior product, without ever having been within spitting distance of one. Sage should not have to expect the scorn and derision it seems to evoke from some quarters, what they should expect and have is an equal chance to anyone else to prove themselves.


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

Actually, the Expobar has been pretty much a huge success since the beginning but it was since the Brewtus 2 that they got those rave reviews in the US and Australia and started to reinforce their reputation.

I doubt the Breville's problems in the US are down just to the difference in amps - there is a really simple fix for that and they are still having these problems now.

I have no animosity to it - it is indifference. Do not mistake indifference to animosity - I just couldn't care less about it. I would never even contemplate owning one because as a concept it does nothing for me and physically less! They could incorporate a 42 inch LCD TV with 3D and the PS4 into the machine (if they haven't already) and I would still not buy it.

What rattled my cage was the nonsense I had read on the forum about it making "BETTER" coffee than the Brewtus, Rocket etc


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

xiuxiuejar said:


> Actually, the Expobar has been pretty much a huge success since the beginning but it was since the Brewtus 2 that they got those rave reviews in the US and Australia and started to reinforce their reputation.
> 
> I doubt the Breville's problems in the US are down just to the difference in amps - there is a really simple fix for that and they are still having these problems now.
> 
> ...


What really rattles my cage is the fact that you don't seem to be able to accept that it can make just as good a cup of coffee as those machines, after all we all know that the machine itself past a certain point is the least important part of the equation so with a good prep routine and good grinder there is no reason why it shouldn't be able to equal or better the other machines mentioned depending on the individual using them, but that goes for comparing any of them to each other.


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

If you're being pedantic, the Gaggia "can" make just as good a cup of coffee too and it's a lot cheaper! If you really think that all the parts of the Sage are of equal quality to those of the other machines - well that's up to you - I said it before, I don't care!


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

xiuxiuejar said:


> If you're being pedantic, the Gaggia "can" make just as good a cup of coffee too and it's a lot cheaper! If you really think that all the parts of the Sage are of equal quality to those of the other machines - well that's up to you - I said it before, I don't care!


Other than the scrap metal value of brass and copper what makes the internals of the other machines any better, you can bet your rear end the electronic components in any of the machines come from China or elsewhere in the Far East, and certainly in the past Italy has had a shocking reputation for the quality of it's electrical and mechanical engineering, anyone remember why Lancia pulled out of selling cars in the UK or how unreliable Fiats were? Just because something is made in China does not mean it is of inferior quality. I work/used to work in what is in global terms a very niche market for equipment and have seen manufacturers move production to China and actually see improvements in quality in some areas and being made as well as in the USA,UK or Europe to the extent it is hard to distinguish between the same units whether one was made in the west and the other in China without looking at the tags.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Wow who would have thought the machine formally known as breville would have sparked such debate, thank god bella barista are comparing this side by side with a brewtus, let's see the results from their tests, I hope they are neutral in their comparison. Keep on putting it through its paces Charlie, I don't doubt that you will give it as honest an appraisal as you can, I think we are all entitled to opinion whether it is based on actual hands on, or the proven history that a mark has had. Clearly there are two camps in relation to the value of this machine, or even it's projected value, but until more of us have had hands on this machine, which I will endeavour to do pretty soon, then any evaluation will be based on the experience of a few, thus far things have been positive, I sincerely hope it stays that way and that the machine formerly known as breville, doesn't encounter the issues similar machines from the same stable have had elsewhere


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Can we stop it now 4 threads on sage , they must be wetting themselves with free advertising on here ....


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

Charliej said:


> Other than the scrap metal value of brass and copper what makes the internals of the other machines any better, you can bet your rear end the electronic components in any of the machines come from China or elsewhere in the Far East, and certainly in the past Italy has had a shocking reputation for the quality of it's electrical and mechanical engineering, anyone remember why Lancia pulled out of selling cars in the UK or how unreliable Fiats were? Just because something is made in China does not mean it is of inferior quality. I work/used to work in what is in global terms a very niche market for equipment and have seen manufacturers move production to China and actually see improvements in quality in some areas and being made as well as in the USA,UK or Europe to the extent it is hard to distinguish between the same units whether one was made in the west and the other in China without looking at the tags.


Sorry - I'm sitting here feeling your frustration with me but as I said, I don't care about the machine because as a concept, it's not my thing. I thought the part about incorporating the PS4 and the 42" LCD TV may have given that away. I don't like the way it looks or the concept behind it. I happen to like the look of chrome and brass and am perfectly satisfied with my coffee.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

It's not bad value considering all the extra features it has such as the timer, descale alarm, DB, PID etc. The fact it also contains a tamper and jug is good for a lot of people - can imagine if you're trying to sell a £1200 machine to people who don't know much about making espresso being able to just open the box and get going is quite important. Quality of coffee isn't much of a consideration - Glenn's tests show it can make a great cup.

The problem is that it's just a bit of an unknown quantity. There are the reports the previous model having reliability issues after a couple of years and for me if i'm going to spend £1k on a machine it's got to be built to last. I want many years use out it. While Expos aren't immune from problems (see GS11's leaky tap) they are easy to fix and they're E61 so based on technology that has been tried and tested over decades. Spare parts are cheap and widely available. I've got a rough idea how to make espresso and have all my own accessories so would rather the money Sage put towards the white glove service, tampers etc went towards improving the machine internally.

It looks a great machine and certainly one I gave consideration to but we're probably not its target market. It's a shame its getting such a hard press. Given how surprised DFK was with the results from the grinder I thought opinion might have softened a bit towards the DB.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy, the grinder is well pitched for what it is......the DB is not because it is too expensive, IMHO....


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## Padder (Dec 14, 2012)

Setting aside the aesthetics and the end result of espresso, the sage looks a bit overcomplicated to me and I would worry about it going wrong. Does it use standard parts like most other machines?


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## twistywizard (Sep 3, 2012)

xiuxiuejar said:


> Sorry - I'm sitting here feeling your frustration with me but as I said, I don't care about the machine because as a concept, it's not my thing. I thought the part about incorporating the PS4 and the 42" LCD TV may have given that away. I don't like the way it looks or the concept behind it. I happen to like the look of chrome and brass and am perfectly satisfied with my coffee.


Without meaning to stir things up. Having read this whole thread out of interest and the others on the Sage it does seem that last paragraph sums it up. You don't like it as a machine or a concept so regardless if it makes a decent cup of coffee you will never like it. So will never be impartial in any way about it.. Is there much point to continue to comment on it?

Being a bit Techy and Geeky I do really like some of the features it has, I can see a real benefit of them. They seem to have a decent support network and with the JL 5 Year Warranty you are laughing. Lets face it the Spanish and Italians are hardly known for there exceptional build quaility are they now?

To make this clear I own a Brewtus and would never consider one of these but I see the machines merits and downfalls and am envious of a few features. The chap who has bought one of these seems to be the ideal market for the machine and I also think Sage should be applauded for coming on here and sending samples out to real coffee 'Freaks' to tear them apart. They must have good confidence in there product to do that.

Do not forget that to a lot of people £1200 is a fair sum of money but not bank breaking in a lot of cases. In this instance the Sage machine has taken someone who is keen on coffee and with some training has ignited that passion. That is surely a good thing









Seems to be a lot of snobby attitudes on here because it doesnt have a Rocket or Expobar badge on it.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Without meaning to sir things up ? Snobby attitudes ? I had hoped this safe debate was over but hey ......


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## SimonB (Sep 12, 2013)

Haven't we already covered this?


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

....more than once.

Enough eh?


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## twistywizard (Sep 3, 2012)

It is exactly that a debate! Apologies I will refrain from posting my view on the subject







But there is truth to the statement. I can understand why as Expobar/Rocket as seen as the 'Gods' of Espresso (Not forgetting the L1) however there seems to be a lot of panning of this product for people that have not seen one in the flesh nor tasted what it can do. Especially seeing as the nature of this forum has always been as long as it makes good coffee it does not matter. Clearly NOT in this case.

Apologies I was late to the party







I didn't realise there was a time limit on when I was able to comment on a thread because others have deemed it past its best....


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

-- Its not necessarily that we shouldn't be discussing it anymore, just that almost everything has been said twice, or five times. The forums are here for discussion, absolutely, but this certain discussion has been going round in circles in about 5 different threads


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

And so the debate goes on....


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