# Espresso volume question.



## Jugglestruck (Nov 17, 2011)

For years I have made my espresso on a Pavoni Lever machine and from 14g of coffee have pulled a shot of about 52-54ml total volume.

I am now using an Elektra Micro casa lever and find I am getting a shot of about 45 -50ml from the same amount of coffee.

I was under the impression that from 14g of coffee it was standard to aim for 60ml but I have just read in another thread here that someone is using 18g of coffee to get a 30ml drink.

As a rule, what do you aim for?


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Personally, I usually aim for around 23g of espresso from 14g of ground coffee (or more generally, the weight of the ground coffee is 60% the weight of the espresso drink if you want to try the same ratio) although this varies with different coffees according to taste.


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## Jugglestruck (Nov 17, 2011)

Wow! I'm obviously a real wimp.....are you all hard cases like Jimbow?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

18g grounds

27g beverage

Not hardcore IMO. More hard to drink the bitter blonde stuff in a 60ml


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Jugglestruck said:


> Wow! I'm obviously a real wimp.....are you all hard cases like Jimbow?


Hehe. It is worth remembering that some of your 60ml is crema (more so with fresher beans). Using weight to measure the beverage can be helpful for comparison purposes as it takes the variable amount of crema out of the equation.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

14g to produce 22-23g


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Sometimes I will over-dose and under-extract just because it's an easy way to achieve something that tastes nice to me. I know it's not right but I also think it's good to step over the line sometimes in your own kitchen.

So this morning it was 20g (grinds in the basket) for 32g of beverage. 18g VST basket.


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

I usually aim for about 25g from 16g. It sounds like it's going to be stronger but it does taste a lot better. The only problem I have is guessing when my scales are going to hit 25g as they seem to refresh about every 1-2 seconds. If I stopped it when it actually read 25g I'd end up with about 30g.


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## Jugglestruck (Nov 17, 2011)

Good stuff all.

I always do use weight to measure the finished product so the crema/liquid aspect is always consistent.

I must admit, this 'less is more' concept is a new one on me but I look forward to giving it a go.

This morning, from 14g coffee grounds, I had a 42g shot. To me this was a good espresso but I shall drop it down by 15g and see how I get on......


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Jugglestruck said:


> To me this was a good espresso


That's all that counts isn't it? The only reason I go with a high brew ratio is that I spent a few days recording how I found an espresso to taste at varying beverage weights (with a constant dose weight) and found the ratio that works for me. No right or wrong.

http://haggieslab.blogspot.com/2011/05/holy-grail-espresso.html

Followed by

http://haggieslab.blogspot.com/2011/05/more-on-perfect-espresso.html

(BTW ignore the column in the Excel picture that refers to beverage volume in fl.oz. It is incorrect and a true figure is around half the value shown)


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## jimrobo (Aug 5, 2011)

ok I may have just misunderstood something here but I keep thinking about this brew volume thing and something really nags me with it!

There are 2 variables in the espresso. Volume of water and extracted coffee, however, people seem to only use one constant, weight to measure it.

Here are 2 scenarios that would surely give the same weight:

1, I extract an espresso and stop when i get a certain weight. fine. no problem.

2, Now, I set the grind coarser: I use the same weight of espresso and this time because of the grind it comes through a lot quicker. I still stop when I get to the same weight but this is a lot different from no.1?

In no. 2 there is a faster extraction and less total dissolved solids as the grind was coarser and took less time to come through meaning a higher amount of water and a lower weight of dissolved coffee.

Thats what I don;t get with the whole weight thing? Have I got it completely wrong? Surely in order to get the right extraction you have to either control one of the variables. Either volume of water or dissolved coffee? Otherwise the same weight can lead to 2 completely different shots?


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Absolutely right. I think there is an assumption that the espresso is extracted over a certain amount of time. This is often assumed to be 25 seconds but can be 30 seconds or even more depending upon the bean, brew temperature and machine. However, it is difficult to express these other variables absolutely in a machine/bean/environmentally independent way. Sometimes (thinking of Square Mile in particular) brew recipes are expressed more specifically than simply the brew ratio and the other variables e.g. temperature, etc. are expressed explicitly.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Yep. Brew ratio isn't a complete way of refering to the extraction variables... it's just a better reference than fluid ounces, because it uses a consistent unit of measure (g) rather than mixing and matching units of measure (g in, floz out).

To get a little more technical, what you're actually aiming for is a particular range of TDS, and also a particular range of extraction yield, but without accurate measuring equipment like a refractometer we can't know these, so the workaround is to use things like shot time to help predict and achieve a target TDS and extraction yield based on taste.

What brew ratio will also do though is indicate the type of espresso you like (ristretto v lungo/caffe crema), but this assumes an extraction yield within the target range. That's how I see it at least.


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## Jugglestruck (Nov 17, 2011)

I think my real quest here is to get a really quality espresso with my new Elektra. I am getting a very acceptable drink from it, very different from the Pavoni, but I know I still have a way to go re grind and volume before I am happy.

It's going to take a bit of time but I get the feeling that limiting the extraction a bit might be the way to go. We shall see......


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Once you've hit the Taste you like, then measure the TDS and weight

Try hitting the same weight and see if the same taste is achieved over the range of shots extracted

If so, then you can use weight to calibrate each shot

If you change your grind significantly you will have to recalibrate (taste, TDS and weight)

Taste should always come before measurement, but measurement can help with consistency which generally helps maintain taste


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