# Lelit Bianca vs DE1 vs Londinium



## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

I have had a barista express for 18 months now, and a Niche grinder for 12 months which i upgraded to.

I would now like to upgrade my machine. I discounted machines like the Linea due to the high price tag, and assumption that other than maybe build quality/reliability it has no advantage over the machines I've shortlisted.

I was previously set on DE1 but now unsure due to price increases, plus I've lost my initial interest in all the tweaking/experimenting it offers. I've also heard it stands out for light roasts which I don't really enjoy. The main reason it's still in my shortlist is because i love the quick start up time (i don't have a fixed coffee time daily) and the small form factor.

Londinium - (or some other spring lever machine?) - i really like the simplicity and beauty of these machines, and from what i've read will deliver equally good coffee (if not better) than other machines, without the need to have hundreds of profiles and settings to vary like the DE1 (yes i know the DE1 can also just work by pressing one button and not tinkering)

My preferences:

- Excellent quality, consistent/repeatable milk based drinks, often 2-3 at a time (i believe all machines can do this)

- Easy & quick workflow (Londinium seems best at this?)

- Quick heat up time (DE1 wins here)

- Good value (Lelit wins here)

Would love to hear about people's experiences with these machines, especially those of you who have used multiple and can compare.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

@Cuprajake has a Bianca and has had a Londinium so would be a good person to hear from.

I would also suggest you think about the ACS Vesuvius Evo Leva.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

As you've dismissed the DE1 that leaves the Bianca and Londinium with a price difference between the two being in the region of £1,300 plus in respect of the Londinium R 24. That said, there is a Londinium R in the classified section priced £2,000 which would make a fairer comparison.

Not sure the Londinium is easier and quicker workflow-wise over the Bianca. It's down to whether your preference leans towards an E61 machine or a spring lever.

Speaking of the latter, ACS Evo is another recently released spring lever which is, when comparing new for new, more is nearer the Bianc, price-wise, and offers many innovative features and might be worth looking at.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

i had a londinium l1 2014 and have a bianca now

theres something about a lever that is just magical

prep of shot is the same:

londinium

pull the lever - pre infuse as you wish let lever go - cut shot by moving cup

bianca

lift the lever play with the flow and cut the shot by closing lever

aftershot cleaning:

londinium quick flush done

bianca quick flush, then back flush with water

long time service:

londinium remove sleeve and grease,quarterly takes 15mins new seals once a yr

bianca chemical back flush and re grease the cam takes 15mins

shots wise

londinium can play with pressure but youre blind on temp, limited to 60ml shots maximum

bianca can play with pressure and temp

both can make excellent shots, fwiw i grind finer with the bianca esp if im flow controlling

i can speak of the acs as ive never hands on.

from a personal point of view, i up graded to a lr24 £3300 worth it came faulty and i sent it back, didnt get on well with the owner, i refurbed my l1 and again had bad experiences with their customer service. read in to that what you will.

but if you like lever style shots get a lever there is no machine decent inc that can replicate that inital hit of water to the puck, ill be honest i normally let th bianca rise with normal pump pressure then only tail down the shot to either a declining pressure or 6bar shot constant.

would i have another lever - you bet your bottom dollar


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## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

Thanks for all the replies.

Systemic Kid - i havn't dismissed the DE1 yet. I still really like the super quick heat up time as I often make coffees at random times and end up having to wait which is annoying. also for guests. And even though its expensive its still similarly priced to the Londinium.

Speaking of the Londinium I'm a bit confused after reading about models people have and looking at their website. Is the R24 the model i should be looking at? I've seen people mention models like the l1-P - are these discontinued?

I actually don't know too much about levers and had not heard about the Evo Leva before. I've read up a bit just now on the forums and it seems like a great option indeed. Any others I should consider based on my needs?

A few questions:

- In terms of taste, how does the Evo Leva compare with the Londinium/DE1/Bianca?

- The same question as above but for consistency/repeatability?

- I often make two milk drinks in a row, sometimes up to 3 or 4 even. Are all the machines equally capable in this regard ? I've read with levers you have to wait a while after the shot has poured before you can remove the puck? Also are all the steamers powerful enough to steam milk for 2-3 milk drinks at once?

- Evo Leva - i can't seem to find a website with purchase options for this, can someone please share a link?

- Heat up times - i believe Decent is ~6 minutes, Bianca is ~18 minutes, Leva is ~15 minutes, Londinium is ~1hr. Is that correct? I also read some people leave their levers on all day - do they consume a lot less power than machines like the Bianca which make that practical?

Thanks again everyone, really appreciate all the advice!


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

all of the machines you're looking at will make great shots.

it really comes down to whats practical for you, to add i believe the lever on the acs to be a bit harder to pull down than a londo due to the double spring, one thing to remember is never stand over a lever as it will take either your teeth or nose with it,

theres a small bit of time to let the chamber degas as your shot prepping so either here nor there

as far as im aware like londinium theres no real uk based service tech for the acs/decent? where as the bianca is sold via a uk supplier and comes with a full 2yr warranty


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## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

Very informative breakdown and comparison of the two levers!

The Evo Leva definitely sounds like the better machine on paper, but a bit of a risky purchase for now given how new to market it is. I may have to give it a few months and await further feedback from users on this machine before making a decision.


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## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Sorry to be so direct, but why would anyone look at these 3 machines as they are really really different? it's like looking at all cars, from manuals to automatic to small compact city cars to big limos. Makes no sense to me.

If heating time is important then you need a 5-15 mins heat time not a 1 hour time, so you can directly cut the Londinium out.

Londinium has no temp control, so buh bye, 1990 technology outdated in such an expensive machine no ty.

Decent is a overpriced piece of ****, or if you want it more nicely spoken equipment. Cheap build, cheap feel, light weight, is makes a massive sound from the pumps, and has plenty of software bugs even on the stable version. Yes the possibilities to play with profiles are endless and the community is top with a lot more information than anywhere else. The producer and the team are really there, and help always, and respond fast to any question, you are covered 100% even after warranty went off. But the machine is a continue project improvement, both software and hardware, and you will hit your head with some bugs here and now. Is it easy to make good coffee on it? no.

Do you find it normal that after you upgrade to a Decent, they ask you whats your grinder, and if it worked with your previous machine and it doesn't work now you must cash out extra for one? like if you had a hand grinder or a sette that worked normal with your old machine, it wont be good enough for Decent. Then do you find it normal for you to use puck prep for all shots, previously you did not, and do you find it normal to add extra steps into your prep? or buy shower contact screens like Bplus, or add a spacer to resolve some of the problems. After you drop 4k on one, hmm.

As for Lelit Bianca it's the safest bet, you can make good coffee on it, with precise temp adjustment and the freestyle to pull shots how you want. But it's the same old e61 box, with a pid and a tap water foset that they make it cost 200euro extra for it. Lol, let's call it a Paddle. The Bianca is the cheapest and it's a capable machine. It has stainless boilers, with a rotary pump, and a compact size. The Londinium and the Leva are big machines.

I had the decent espresso and even wrote a review about it here:

https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fpresentation%2Fd%2F11LW68_U4e8mNTpioFNTUAQ_7ferRpkdZ5L3cdvir4zE%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing&e=ATObZbRjrRLtfigC6qdbx3sxW1oFSZCBWLofN-ZXcy4KvluhvwdUrKEDTv0xy1eW0djnNIn8dnixklut_-ZYYvzc6cKirtKk5dhv3w&s=1

I now have the ACS Vesuvius evo Leva, that I am happy with it. But I got it cause I knew what I wanted, a lever with pid and precise temp control on everything. No more guessing and waiting time for recover between shots.

I already had several machines, including e61 machines. They are okay, but not for me. The Bianca is more appealing cause of the rotary pump, compared to other vibe pumps overpriced machines like /ECM.


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## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

Denis S said:


> Sorry to be so direct, but why would anyone look at these 3 machines as they are really really different? it's like looking at all cars, from manuals to automatic to small compact city cars to big limos. Makes no sense to me.


 because each machine has its own appeals, and there is no machine that ticks each box of my requirements.

Do people who have more than one car not make sense to you? so many people have a collection of cars - Sports car, run around car, family car, compact city car. As you can see each car has its use case.

Unfortunately not everyone has the space and money to afford ALL the cars/machines . so i will have to make a compromise with whatever machine i decide on unfortunately. And i posted this to gather as much info as possible on each so i can consider all factors and ultimately decide which trade offs i want to make and where.

Price - Lelit wins here

Heat up time & size - DE1 wins here

Aesthetics and simplicity - Londinium wins here

hope that makes sense?

Nice to hear you are happy with your Leva, it is definitely also in my consideration now.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@ZwiGGy Your list of considerations could be a whole lot longer! Mine would be!


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## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

I guess the main concern regarding newness is not just about reliability, but about whether the combination of all these parts (even though all used/tested in their own rights in other machines) come together to build a genuinely great machine.

for example, a bit like the Decent, but do all these extra features actually result in better tasting coffee / or other practical benefits like workflow compared with the Londinium which is old/simple design?

Or does the use of a double spring lever come with "side-effects" which may be considered disadvantages and complications in the machine that are not needed?

Like with the Decent people complaining about the mouthfeel and hypothesising its to do with headspace. Little things and differences like this may come to light as more and more people use it.

The above points I'm sure are not valid on the Leva, so you don't need to justify it, i guess my point is its still a completely new product, and sometimes you can't guess what things may come up (otherwise it would have been identified in the design phase).


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## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

dfk41 said:


> @ZwiGGy Your list of considerations could be a whole lot longer! Mine would be!


 yeah definitely, those were just the main ones and main differentiators i see between them, but that's also part of the reason i started this topic - as i learn more about the machines new considerations I hadn't thought of may come to light.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

think the thread is derailing into a bit of an advert, theres bias amoung most owners be it coffee machines, cars or tv's

i wrote the leva off for it being new to the market and the pump noise, i do think it looks visually very fetching

@Denis Sdoes the leva inject the water into the chamber like a londinium under such force,? i know the decent cant replicate that. which is big part of a lever appeal.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@ZwiGGy If you check out the classifieds, you will find both a Decent and a Londiium R for sale. As others have said you have a great set of choices. I own 2 Biancas and can confirm that it's a great machine, I am using a Bianca at the moment. I have around 13 (I can't remember) espresso machines and looking at your possible choices, I am sure you will be happy with whatever you buy.

Each owner will have different criteria that push their buttons, sometimes it won't be based on technical considerations and just gut feel. Or simply, they like how something looks. There are massive differences (technical, price, quality) in all the machines you have under consideration...Sadly, these differences are not always obvious.

As someone who helps Italian manufacturers design machines...my viewpoint and knowledge base about them is very different to most. Many of the technologies/ideas in use in modern prosumer espresso machines came from me...anticipating consumer needs. Working with prototypes and the ideas stage (on machines, grinders and roasters) is what pushes my buttons as a hobby..


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## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

When i first got into espresso about 18 months back i followed Decent quite closely for about 6 months and at the time was planning on getting one (it was just a matter of when not if).

For a start i really liked the fresh approach, John and his involvement in the community, their passion to get the best espresso to home users, analysing details and doing things that many machines can't do (e.g. control flow and pressure). At the time I thought all this functionality and output resulted in being able to extract the best coffee, but after more reading and research it seems like that is only really true for maybe lighter roasts which are quite fussy (and i don't drink/enjoy). At the time because i was new to espresso i was really interested in all the tinkering and ability to experiment but a year on into espresso i realise that interest has faded and i don't have the time either.

Having said that there are still great things about the machine not to discount - even though the extra features don't necessarily lead to better coffee than say the Lelit or L1/LR, it is on the same par at least, just maybe different qualities and the same price. So in terms of being able to product excellent coffee which is the #1 priority, that makes it a great machine for me.

The quick heat up (5 mins) is a big plus for me because I often have guests, and don't always have predictably timed coffee. The small size is also appealing.

Whilst the steam power is a bit weaker than the other machines, from what i've read it produces very high quality microfoam with less dilution than other steamers. It can also be timed to give consistent temperature without the need of a thermometer.

Most people who are unhappy with the Decent seem to be because of the occasional software bugs (which generally seemed to have been ironed out now) and lack of tactile feel (which is an experience preference) or realising they don't use most of its features, which i don't really see as a negative unless you are paying extra for them or it stops you using the machine in a simple way (which it doesn't).

I haven't found any unhappy Evo users, but that's because I've maybe only found about 5!

I am leaning more to the Lelit or LR/Evo now though.


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## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Faster steaming on De means more water injected into the heaters meaning wet steam, so the dilution in the De is bigger than on other machines. Yes you can set the flow and temp for the steaming, but then you will steam slower than a breville. You find a topic about Decent steaming dilution with weights on home barista, showing it has way more water injected into the milk than other boiler machines.

There are bugs in the Decent software right now into the stable version, so dont know where you get your info from but it's not really accurate.

Heating time for the De is not 5 mins, it's a bit longer, yes you can make a cold espresso after 5 mins but the steaming wont deliver the best results, more like 7 mins that is still faster than most machines. Decent drops 3C if you pull an espresso after 5 mins from turning it on, just so you know, and i'm talking about the set start temperature not the intra shot temperature drop. If you ask 90C water and pull a shot after 5 mins, you will get 87C water injected in the first seconds then it will go upwards.

If you have guests you can have a smart plug to turn on machine from 6 to 10 am and from 3 to 6 pm each day.

Guests can be 10 times a year, I would not bother with that in being a reason in how to buy a machine, you buy it for the rest of those 355 days a year not for those 10 days.

About size, have a look, if you dont have space then you can cut some machines off the list.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@ZwiGGy Sage DB heats up very quickly if that it important! With a dual boiler (I do not know your preference for style of drink) if you heat it up with all boilers then switch off the steam boiler it stays hot for ages so if 3 hours later guests come round it takes but a few minutes to come back to temp (true for any dual boiler). I think most folks leave their machines switched on all day. Many discussions have been had regarding switching off between use


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## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

The topic about milk dilution, I will not post links to another forum here as I do not know if allowed but search on google:

*
Too much water in milk- Decent 
*

*

*

*

*


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

From Londinium world, if you can plumb the machine, the best value for money is Compressa.

It is LR24 without the pump, the reservoir, the digital pre-infusion, and the wireless control.



dfk41 said:


> The Londinium also has a single 3 litre boiler which is responsible for both producing hot water for steam as well as the shot.


 In LR/LR24 - It is true for hot water and steam. The brew water is taken from water reservoir and heated in the heat exchanger. Boiler capacity is 2,3 l. Reservoir is 3 liters.



ZwiGGy said:


> i love the quick start up time


 Then Londinium is not your choice, it needs 45-60 minutes warmup. You can of course have some kind of smart power plug.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

I agree that whilst these machines are very different and it may be strange to some that you would consider them all, it certainly helps to discuss them in one place and get as much information as possible so you can figure out what will work best for you. I would do the same.

You mention that you like the small size of the decent but as per the above picture a lever machine is definitely more of a statement!

I have also read the same posts on the HB forum about steam from the decent in fact introducing a fair amount of water into milk. I think they were trying to improve this with higher temps - not sure how current models perform.

I have an ACS Minima and the steam is very dry. I can't speak for the Lelit Bianca, maybe @Cuprajake or @DavecUK can share having used both.

If you are no longer keen to analyse your shots and experiment with different variables then I don't see the point in buying a decent. If you wanted to and enjoy lighter roasts then it would be a more compelling choice and I could understand the appeal.

As you currently own a Barista Express I think the Lelit Bianca will be an excellent upgrade - it also includes flow control should you become more interested in lighter roasts. As @Cuprajake mentioned you can but it from Bella Barista and you're covered by a 2 year warranty.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

HVL87 said:


> I have an ACS Minima and the steam is very dry. I can't speak for the Lelit Bianca, maybe @Cuprajake or @DavecUK can share having used both.


 Minima has boilers as large or larger than other prosumer machines. Maximum performance, Minima(l) cost. The steaming on the Bianca is excellent....the steaming on the Minima...it's a steaming monster (2 litre steam boiler). It's like having a car that can go 150 mph, or 200 mph...on UK roads, it's irrelevant most of the time.


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## Coffee by the Casuals (Sep 15, 2020)

Denis S said:


> Faster steaming on De means more water injected into the heaters meaning wet steam, so the dilution in the De is bigger than on other machines.


 I think @decent_espresso would disagree.

https://decentespresso.com/overview

*"*High Energy, Dry Steam

Our steam heats up to 160°C (320°F), compared to traditional machines which max out at 128°C (260°F). We provide more energy per gram of water, so you can heat with less water. This means significantly less dilution of your milk and thus better flavor."


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## Coffee by the Casuals (Sep 15, 2020)

I only have experience with the DE1 out of this list. It is an excellent machine. But you know that already, because that's why it's on the short list.

Light roast, dark roast, Decent will perform superbly. Milk steaming is excellent. I've never had difficulty steaming from about five minutes onwards.

If you don't want to tinker, then you don't have to. There is a number of profiles that you could use out of the box and leave it like that. Maybe you want to use the Londinium profile... Or the GHC manual profile.

It's a lot of machine in a tiny footprint. Feel free to ask more.


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## JohanR (May 8, 2021)

Coffee by the Casuals said:


> I think @decent_espresso would disagree.
> 
> https://decentespresso.com/overview
> 
> ...


 This statement is really an exaggeration. If you look in a steam table, such as https://www.thermopedia.com/content/1150/, you will find that the specific enthalpy of steam at 128 degC is 2717.6 J/g whereas at 160 degC it is 2758.0 J/g. So the difference is 1.5 percent. Not much to write home about.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

A boiler at 128C and a thermoblock style steamer at 160 are two completely different things. One has a large quantity of water at 128C willing to turn into steam as soon as pressure is reduced by opening the steam tap and is a big energy store, allowing for the heating elements to kick in and continue to heat the boiler.

The second takes room temperature water and has to impart sufficient energy to turn it into steam (that's quite a lot of energy)...compared to a boiler that's already at 128C and 1.5+ bar. Dryness of steam then is purely a product of how much water you put into the thermoblock...a balancing act usually requiring a single hole or 2 very small ones..

I know this because I have been helping with some prototype work on a miniature steam generator for a new machine that could be coming to market, running at 200C, using a standard 2 hole steam wand (without a reduced tip size). 180C worked...but in the words of the great Roy Walker










So we went large for 200C <lol> and then it was good, and it was right....whether it will blow itself up or not, only testing will tell. The manufacturer can put different seals in it if need be. At 200C, it gave steaming power comparable with most dual boiler machines!


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## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

pj.walczak said:


> From Londinium world, if you can plumb the machine, the best value for money is Compressa.
> 
> It is LR24 without the pump, the reservoir, the digital pre-infusion, and the wireless control.
> 
> Then Londinium is not your choice, it needs 45-60 minutes warmup. You can of course have some kind of smart power plug.


 I am planning a kitchen renovation early next year, so plumbing in is definitely an option.

How practical/easy is it to plumb in machines here in the UK? especially considering water would need to be filtered or altered in some way due to hardness.

I've also heard about the Londinium Compact - is that the same as the Compressa?

Sorry for my perhaps stupid question, but what would i be missing without pump, the reservoir, the digital pre-infusion, and the wireless control, in practical terms?

Also yes the warm up time put me off, but then could i just turn it on in the morning and leave for the day or does it consume too much power?

Can the Evo Leva also be plumbed in?


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## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Listen, I read the entire decent forum everyday for hours after joining. I watched the videos, the explanation and the topics.

I had my decent, has good parts and bad parts. The steam is faster after they figured out they can use both heaters (steam and coffee water circuit) at the same time to steam, because before they would only use ~1.1m of thermocoil (not thermoblock they say it's not a thermoblock) for the steam and then they changed to double that length by adding the coffee water circuit so another ~1.1m so in total they have more than 2m of coils that is heating the water for steam.

That changed the steaming time from 30-35 sec to 20+ sec. Then they made the XL (that is more powerful) and now the XXL that has even more power, but it comes with a price, check it to see how much it costs. Even so some hx/dual boilers have better steaming capabilities with a much drier steam. Is the De enough for home to steam? absolutely, you see pros steaming with a gaggia classic or a breville with really good results.

My point is that there is a lot of setbacks and drawbacks from the thermocoil system and they came a long way and improved, but it's still suboptimal to a much cheaper boiler machine. My Leva eats alive the decent at the steaming chapter.

6-7 sec for 200ml on Leva with dry steam versus 22-25 sec on the decent for the same 200ml.

As for the profile emulated on the Decent, they are made by people, not by Decent. The Londinium, the Slayer and other profiles are not made by the company cause of patents, they dont even name the profiles Londinium but Londonium, and because fo that now they moved to D-flow profile that it's an updated londinium profile.

I will give you a small lesson why the decent cant emulate the Londinium, or other machines.

Londinium has a 25+g/s flow in preinfusion, the decent has a max 8g/s flow in preinfusion. Now tell me how can you emulate a 25g/s preinfusion with a max 8g/s machine? you cant, and if you search basecamp you find people who own both the Londinium and the Decent and say that running the londinium profile on De doesn't give you the same result as the real thing.


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## Coffee by the Casuals (Sep 15, 2020)

Of course, I didn't say that it emulates it or anything like that. They're options aren't they? If it can't perfectly emulate, it can at least give another option for extraction.

And what you definitely can't do is pull a 6-bar flat pressure profile on a Londinium. So, again, if you like versatility then it's a tick in the Decent box.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ZwiGGy said:


> I am planning a kitchen renovation early next year, so plumbing in is definitely an option.
> 
> 1. How practical/easy is it to plumb in machines here in the UK? especially considering water would need to be filtered or altered in some way due to hardness.
> 
> ...


 1. It's a bit of a PITA, you have to have an in line water treatment cartridge, limited where you site it and if you want to move it later, or sell it on...it's more difficult. I have seen photos of a Compressa plumbed in, and it looks a bit of a dogs dinner as it seemed to be sited in a very inconvenient place. The Compressa is the cheapest of the current Londinium range

2. No, the Compact, now called the Vectis, is trying to make a grab for the Cremina SL market. Apparently (according to the owner of the company), it's going to be more temperature stable than the Cremina and has a "gem of a 58mm lever group", according to the information that's being drip fed to the market from the closed private forum. I think it's worth taking the statements with a pinch of salt, as it has not actually been built yet, nor tested. When it is tested, only a carefully selected group will test the prototypes before signing it into production. I think it's been 4 or 5 years coming next year...bit like nuclear fusion?

3. You would be missing the ability to run it from a tank and have it in various positions in the home. Descaling would be much more difficult. As far as the Digital Preinfusion and app goes, you shouldn't be missing a lot. Although it's fair to say that with 1 spring much of the shot is at quite a low pressure, so the potential for 5 or 6 bar preinfusion might help with that. The problem is, if you do that, you're going to hit a bed of coffee that's already been extracting with about 7.5 bar when you raise the lever....not normally how you want to do things. The other thing you would be missing is the ability to do a bigger shot by "preinfusiing" at high pressure for longer...again questionable.

4. If you're talking about the Londinum, yes you can, but there is a big 2.3 litre *uninsulated* boiler running at 125C and a group losing heat. heat loss is a 4th power law, so that a high temperature boiler looses heat well, and it's not linear. The lack of any ventilation in the Londinium case helps a bit here, but with the downside that it must get very hot inside! The group runs quite a bit cooler than the Evo, or a Bianca, so you will save a tiny bit of energy there.

The Bianca uses about 90W with the steam boiler switched off, you can do that because it's a dual boiler and just have it on when you want to steam milk. Saves energy and stress on the machine

The Evo can be plumbed or tanked...if plumbed, it always fills the tank and stops...so the preinfusion pressure will remain at the user adjusted level, driven by the gear pump. The steam boiler on the Evo can be switched off, which saves energy so it uses only a little more than a Bianca (because the group is electrically heated and at brew temp). There is the advantage that you can switch the group and/or brew boilers off and save energy as the warm up time for the group is only 15m.

I've tried to keep all this factual as best I can....There are of course vast differences in price/performance and flexibility between the different machines. As well as build cost...the Evo having a significantly higher factory build cost than the other 2 machines. To give just one example e.g. the Group on the Evo costs double that of the Londinium.

The Evo and Bianca are both built by the owners own factories, and the owners are also designers....very clever ones.


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## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

Thanks Dave for the detailed response, and everyone else for all your input.

I've eliminated the DE1 and its just between the Bianca and the Londinium/Evo now.

I got the impression levers main attraction was their simplicity whilst being able to produce (arguably) unbeatable espresso, so I'm surprised the Evo then decided to add complexity by way of extra features, if (one would argue) it is not needed/does not improve the quality of the shots.

i may wait a few months longer before deciding and see if we get some more feedback on the Evo from others.


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## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

There is no way you can pull a dark roast (Passalacqua Harlem) or a nordic filter roast (example Tim Wendelboe) at the same temperature parameters.

So it is mandatory to have a consistent repeatable temp control on a machine. Also is is moronic to have a steam boiler in direct connection to a brew boiler, since if you need lower temp you will lower your steam boiler pressure, having a less powerful steam. You must learn to control the steaming if you are going to jump from a 1.1 bar steam boiler to a 1.4 bar.

So the Evo Leva is just a respond to modern times and needs, where some people pull light stuff, while others pull dark southern italian blends.

A simple example is this, here is a light filter roast vs a dark south Italy roast, there is no way in hell you are going to pull them the same, you need a different ratio, a different temp.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@ZwiGGy I think what Dennis says is extremely accurate. To sum it up, the Evo combines old with new. A lever machine that does not offer temperature control, or any way of reviewing it, independent dual boilers, or any way of seeing the bar pressure in the group, really are making the most extraordinary claims to which they are simply not able to substantiate......other than perhaps shouting very loudly and virtue signalling amongst their own clan


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

The londinium that they are all hinting at is simply older tech

Light filter roasts are a fairly new thing in terms of coffee

To add not everyone likes bright read acid roasts, inc the op if you read their post.

Quit the hard sell and let them make a choice


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ZwiGGy said:


> I got the impression levers main attraction was their simplicity whilst being able to produce (arguably) unbeatable espresso, so I'm surprised the Evo then decided to add complexity by way of extra features, if (one would argue) it is not needed/does not improve the quality of the shots.
> 
> i may wait a few months longer before deciding and see if we get some more feedback on the Evo from others.


 In the image below, we see the evolution of the motor car, the next photo would obviously be of the electric car. With each generation, the car improved, technically, build quality, reliability and performance. When I was young my dad used to say, "they don't make them like they used to" (he was a motor mechanic), then the Japanese pushed the market and along came the modern car with the demise of the old British marques. My dad still used to say, "they don't make them like they used to", but added "thank god"









The espresso machine is no different. We now have electronic temperature control not pressurestats, twin boilers, PIDs. All of which make the machines easier to use and more capable of not only repeatable results, but tunable results to match the coffees being roasted and the capabilities of grinders now available to the prosumer market.

I saw a comment earlier that the Londinium is old tech, in many ways there's nothing wrong with that, I like the E61 group, that's old tech, I like the Evo group that's old tech. What I really like is when the best of the old tech is married to the best of new tech.. In a sense, the Londinium is technological laziness, which (at the price) is an insult to the consumer. Just recently the innovation of a thermistor, instead of a noisy old pressurestat was introduced. Perhaps one day they will use an insulated steel boiler, ventilate the case, fit a proper cup rack...you know, the little things. The group Londinium use limits what they can do technologically, but it is much cheaper for the factory (Fracino) to buy. I will admit not being a fan of the Fiorenzato type group, simply because of the way it works and the quality of what it is. I always liked the LSM group type though, from the first time I used on a Pompeii.

I'm also not pushing the Evo in particular, people have to buy what's right for them. it's important though to really understand what it is you're getting. Machines like the ECM, Bianca, MaraX, Minima, Vesuvius PP, etc. are all attempting to marry the best of old school with modern tech. Some manufacturers rested on their laurels, took the easy route, and faded into relative obscurity. My technical and design view experience of espresso machines means I fully understand the technologies, strengths and weaknesses in a way the consumer can't. This gives me quite a different view on certain machines.

Next week I get a top of the range Vibiemme to have a look at and review. It's interesting because they are an owner company, not corporate and I like working with companies like that. I'm curious to see where they are now, because they lost their way a decade or so ago along with quite a few other companies. From what I hear though...they may be back...we shall see.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> Light filter roasts are a fairly new thing in terms of coffee


 Not sure it's fairly new thing. Had an HG 1 when they first came out paired with a Londinium and was very happy with the coffee it produced until my curiosity drew me to HasBean whose roasts, being lighter, were incompatible, IMO, with the HG 1 producing sour shots so I sold the HG 1 and got an EK 43 - that was 2014.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Should have added, lighter roasts had been going well before 2014.


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

ZwiGGy said:


> I'm surprised the Evo then decided to add complexity by way of extra features, if (one would argue) it is not needed/does not improve the quality of the shots.


 I will share my experience. I am not an engineer but have a strong analytical mind, which helps understand what it takes to make a good cup.

I was in a similar situation appealed by the lever and also by two cracking machines - Minima and Bianca. The Evo did not even see the Alpha bed at that time. I was looking for the features of Minima, Bianca and the beauty of lever. I liked the expensive lever machine, which I did not choose as I thought it was too expensive for me and also neither it gave me the features, which I thought are important to me, nor an ability to do a temperature profiling for an analytically curious mind. IMO, temperature control is a very critical parameter. I see Evo as a natural progression or an excellent forward-looking innovation (for a lack of word).

After an extensive review of the threads and the review of the Alpha bed by Dave, like other Evo owners, I paid the deposit, waited for it for almost 6 months and am happy, I did.

There is nothing complex about the extra features. It gives you more control over how you want to pull a shot. What ever you choose, all are excellent machines, unless you want to go the more traditional lever way. If correct, I am afraid none of the choices, which you have made may fit that criteria.

Good luck in your purchase and let's know how you get on.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Should have added, lighter roasts had been going well before 2014.


 Ment in terms of both groups circa 50yr old


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Cuprajake said:


> Ment in terms of both groups circa 50yr old


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

LR24 / LR with digital preinfussion kit is great for medium and light roasts. The pressure profile is also great for medium and light roast. You can easily get delicious espresso from filter roasts, at 20+ gram dose and pre infussion at 5 bar, assuming you have a proper grinder. Yes I agree it is probably not optimal machine for very dark roast (and if someone drinks dark roasted coffee then Evo is better choice, 11 bar pressure give you more body and ability to lower the temperature would be extremely useful to avoid over extraction). On the other hand starting with 11 bars for very light roasts is sub-optimal, as you will be compromising clarity and complexity, which are things you are usually looking in those very light espresso shots.

Is LR24 technological laziness? Well: thermistor to regulate the boiler, App to regulate the digital preinussion kit settings - using cloud service Blynk, silent rotary pump 24(VDC). We can only speculate what will be the domestic lever market without Londinium.

For me the biggest benefit of LR is the simplicity and its ability to provide great, consistent shots, one after another. I only adjust one variable on the machine (pre-inf pressure) and rest are just standard espresso variables, grind size, dose, yield.

If you have enough space for big lever, you are OK with warm-up time of 1 hour, drink medium and light roasts, you cannot go wrong with LR24. If you drink Passalacqua Harlem, probably look somewhere else.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

pj.walczak said:


> For me the biggest benefit of LR is the simplicity and its ability to provide great, consistent shots, one after another.


 Can I ask how you can prove this statement to me, or you just expect me to accept what you say and not question it matey?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@pj.walczak This is all regurgitated from the non evidenced musings of a few people. You have no idea what the pressure is doing in any particular shot, and can't affect it in a known way. You have no real idea what the temperature is doing in the shot, or shot to shot. The pressure profile of the single spring gets to around 7 or 7.5 bar against coffee and not for very long, dropping significantly for most of the shot.

The only reason 5 bar preinfusion makes a difference on the machine, is because at that pressure it becomes extraction and at higher pressures than much of the extraction time of the lever/spring. It's not an expensively made machine (by Fracino) and has few relevant or innovative capabilities.



> Is LR24 technological laziness? Well: thermistor to regulate the boiler, App to regulate the digital preinussion kit settings - using cloud service Blynk, silent rotary pump 24(VDC). We can only speculate what will be the domestic lever market without Londinium.


 Yes, thermistor introduced just a few months ago, silent rotary pump at 24V is not an innovation, but necessary for adjustable pressure. very expensive if it goes wrong. No boiler insulation, copper boiler (singular), no cup rack, cheap group......very expensive price.

We can speculate that the domestic market will be well served with or without the Londinium, which is overpriced. Part of the reason could be the drop-shipping model, which adds more cost.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

pj.walczak said:


> Yes I agree....Londinium LR 24.... is probably not optimal machine for very dark roast


 Really? You can reduce the PI pressure, and on the fly, to 1.5 bar which is the same as the original Londinium. Given that nothing else is different between the LR 24 and the original Londinium - group/spring etc, the LR 24 is able to extract optimally for dark and very dark roasts.


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## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

pj.walczak said:


> LR24 / LR with digital preinfussion kit is great for medium and light roasts. The pressure profile is also great for medium and light roast. You can easily get delicious espresso from filter roasts, at 20+ gram dose and pre infussion at 5 bar, assuming you have a proper grinder. Yes I agree it is probably not optimal machine for very dark roast (and if someone drinks dark roasted coffee then Evo is better choice, 11 bar pressure give you more body and ability to lower the temperature would be extremely useful to avoid over extraction). On the other hand starting with 11 bars for very light roasts is sub-optimal, as you will be compromising clarity and complexity, which are things you are usually looking in those very light espresso shots.
> 
> Is LR24 technological laziness? Well: thermistor to regulate the boiler, App to regulate the digital preinussion kit settings - using cloud service Blynk, silent rotary pump 24(VDC). We can only speculate what will be the domestic lever market without Londinium.
> 
> ...


 There is this belief that higher pressure means less clarity. From what?

I have plenty experience when it comes to all sorts of strange shots, both from my modded machines with ito/leva and with decent espresso. I did pull 3 bar flat shots, turbo 6 bar bloom or dynamic bloom shots and so on.

A higher brewing pressure demands for a finer grind. A finer grind if properly extracted and not chocked and channeled can extract higher. Did you see there are some guys here including me that drink extremely light roasts on Leva and we all said that the sourness is not present? you do know why? because it's extracts a lot more than a 7 bar machine.

So no, higher 10.5 bar peak pressure shots are not less clean, or have less clarity, they are sweeter and have more extraction with better and riper fruits.

You will only understand that when you are going to try it on your own.


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Given that nothing else is different between the LR 24 and the original Londinium - group/spring etc


 The original Londinium was open open thermosiphon design, the LR24 is closed thermosiphon. So the brew temperature is higher on LR then on original L1 at the same pre-infussion pressure. Again, dark roasts are not bad, but from my experience darker roast are easier to extract at higher pressure and lower temp.



DavecUK said:


> his is all regurgitated from the non evidenced musings of a few people. You have no idea what the pressure is doing in any particular shot, and can't affect it in a known way. You have no real idea what the temperature is doing in the shot, or shot to shot. The pressure profile of the single spring gets to around 7 or 7.5 bar against coffee and not for very long, dropping significantly for most of the shot.


 it is true, I cannot measure the temp or profile without additional toosl. But I can taste and measure the coffee.

I can have very tasty cups with extraction yield of 21-23%, or ristretto at 18-19%. Good enough for me, and good enough objectively,



dfk41 said:


> Can I ask how you can prove this statement to me


 Well, if you are even in Warsaw, you have a free coffee at my home. Consistency: I measure time for each shot - pre-inf and total exaction - they are almost identical for the same beans. I measure TDS from time to time, results above. For the taste you have to believe me.

Is it no loner allowed to be happy with the machine I am using if the name starts with L and is no Lelit or Leva? Zwiggy is asking for the feedback about LR, so I give my feedback.  I have the machine for 4 years, so first love is gone, I am pretty objective about it and I know it pretty well. I have no relationship with the owner, no benefits if more or less machines are sold. Well, to be fair, I want the company to be on the market to have easy access to spare parts.



Denis S said:


> You will only understand that when you are going to try it on your own.


 I had pump machines, I had manual levers. It is easier to operate at lower pressure. And yes, the lower pressure shots had better clarity and worse mouthfeel each time I did the comparison.

You are right: if you have perfect puck, great grinder, higher pressure gives you more extraction. But if I can get around 22% at lower pressure, do you really need to go higher?

It is very common in specialty coffee bars, to use lower pressure than 11 bars. Do you know any good coffee bar, with pump machine that is operating at such high pressure?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

pj.walczak said:


> The original Londinium was open open thermosiphon design, the LR24 is closed thermosiphon. So the brew temperature is higher on LR then on original L1 at the same pre-infussion pressure.


 I get that but do you have any information as to the actual difference in temperature between the L1's and Lr 24's brew temp?


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

No, I was never able to play with the original Londinium, so I do not know what is the actual difference in degrees between those two. If I compare it with Musica, even at the low pre-inf, LR is producing a hotter shot.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@pj.walczak I agree 100% with you, that taste is king.......but........without the tools to measure, you cannot repeat the next shot with any degree of accuracy. And......if ever I am in Warsaw, I would love to sample your coffee.....goole Seghill and I will return the favour!


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

Yes, you are right on Londinium you cannot measure the process, you can only measure the results (TDS, time, yield). Leva gives you much more here, Decent is a clear winner in that aspect.

IMHO I can repeat the shots. I have pretty good grinder that gives me consistent results. I always turn on the machine at least one hour before the shot, when I am happy with the recipe the pre-inf setting is constant, lever is a lever (spring) so nothing is really changing from shot to shot. I do not know what was the brew temp, I do not know what was the pressure profile, but I can easily repeat the process. For some people, I can understand this is not enough but the coffee is damn good. To make thing worse for myself, I was seriously considering Strietman CT 

I do not know if you do manual pour-overs, but this is bit similar. You do not know all the details what is happening in the slurry, but you can get consistent results, and you can prove it by measuring and tasting the cup.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@pj.walczak The most important thing is you are very happy with your setup and the shots it's making. It's a good way to be, as it saves you from upgraditis.


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## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

I think only Mr. Walczak has understood the point i was trying to make. Let me try to restate it:

- the arguement for the leva is that it combines new tech with old, giving key information about the shot like temp. and other details to give you more flexibility + repeatability because you have more parameters to tweak depending on your bean (and each bean apparently is optimised under different conditions) and repeatability because you have the features allowing you to do so.

- the above is pretty much the whole mantra of the Decent, and as PJ says, DE1 wins by far in this respect. and this is why originally, c. 1 year back, i was absolutely set on getting the Decent, because apart from experience/looks/noise which are all subjective points, it on paper should deliver the best results along with technical innovation that allows it to be so compact, and have an incredibly fast warm up time, not to mention other things

- BUT, after a year of reading and learning, it seemed to me (and perhaps this is not correct), that all these extra features and technical aspects to allow for repeating, flow profiling, temp profiling, etc, etc, was end of the day not producing any better tasting coffee than machines like the Londinium (or for example the Linea Mini which is also super simple). *** with the exception of fussy roasts like light nordic roasts, or extremely dark roasts- *** (and some even disagree with this).

To give you an example of the coffees i enjoy - Monmouth, Climpsons, Bad hand, Origin, Notes house blends - all your standard medium/dark roasts. I don't like acidic/fruity flavours (because i drink milk drinks and don't think it goes well).

Now one might argue the few parameters the Leva now allows you to modify are indeed critical and make a noticeable difference in cup with the majority of beans (not just light beans), whereas all the extra features of the DE1 no longer make an impact, but that's what I'm trying to decipher.

Is even the Leva's capabilities unnecessary for someone like me who a) does not have the time to experiment like this b) drinks standard medium/dark espresso in milk 90% of the time (except with guests)

having said that, if a lot of people have good things to say about the Leva, and it is certainly no worse in terms of quality/repeatability as the LR, and its slightly cheaper, then perhaps it still comes out on top for me. time will tell (not enough feedback as of yet and not comfortable buying a product that isn't yet officially launched even). the silent pump noise of the LR is definitely a plus though.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@ZwiGGy There was a Londinium in the for sale section, I am sure more will come up.

P.S. I think if the 3 seconds or so of pump noise is a deal breaker when pulling the shot, a Londinium will be your best choice. The Evo pump was chosen because it's not £350+ to replace, and has the right flow rate to do the job.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

@ZwiGGydo you like to idea of owning a spring lever machine or is your priority a machine which gets you the best result in a small package with fast heat up time?

If you believe you will stick to medium/dark roasts, don't want to/have time to analyse your shots, and prefer milk based espresso drinks 90% of the time I think most of these machines are overkill, unless you just like the idea of owning one.


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## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

HVL87 said:


> @ZwiGGydo you like to idea of owning a spring lever machine or is your priority a machine which gets you the best result in a small package with fast heat up time?
> 
> If you believe you will stick to medium/dark roasts, don't want to/have time to analyse your shots, and prefer milk based espresso drinks 90% of the time I think most of these machines are overkill, unless you just like the idea of owning one.


 that's the thing - i value qualities each machine has, but no machine has them all, which is why it makes it a difficult choice.

re heat up time, I think i could just turn on the Lever in the morning and leave it on most of the day which would solve the start up issue (i almost always have coffees in the afternoon and evening).

The thing is making multiple back to back milk drinks requires a better machine. Perhaps only the Sage DB would suffice which is cheaper than Bianca, but the Bianca is not outrageously more expensive, and gives notable benefits like stronger steam, profiling on the occasion i may want to play with it, looks, and longevity and I like the idea of owning one


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

do what denis did and just buy them all lol

i know heat up time was also a thing for you, for some reason the other day my wifi plug had an issyfit and didnt turn on, the bianca was warm within 15- 20mins, up to steam, as it overshoots the temp then comes back down

could i throw the elizabeth in there too? less money and dual boiler,


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Evo is not really designed for playing. It is designed to let you turn a bad/average drink into something better by adjusting aspects of the shot. The Decent and the like are made to play with. One of the big problems faced by Londinium and Decent, is the lack of chat on open forums. Someone I have learnt to respect on here, is @Denis S who has a Decent and an Evo. If you read what he has said it kind of makes sense. If you wish to experiment with every shot then a Decent maybe a good thing. If you want to find a profile that suits the coffee you are drinking, then the Decent may be a good thing, in the same way as any coffee machine might be. At the end of the day, there is only so much research you can do online and you really need to go and visit and find these short listed machines in the wild, and try to arrange a session


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Imho, considering you opined that you don't have time to experiment all of these, I'm afraid you are going to have to look outside the choices you have made. My concern would be buyers' remorse!


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

I think the Bianca is a great choice as you also get a quiet rotary pump. As @Cuprajake mentioned, heat up time is not too bad. The reason why I decided against a Sage DB is parts are not readily available and build quality not on par with "prosumer" machines.

In the £1100-£1300 range you have the ACS Minima (which I own) or Lelit Elizabeth. I upgraded from a Sage Barista Pro. For back to back milk drinks I would opt for the Minima but the pump* is noisy*. For no compromises the Bianca is great.

As has been said already, experience using the machines is valuable in making a decision. Saying that, an E61 DB is a relatively safe choice, especially one with a rotary pump if you want a quiet machine!


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## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

whats the best way to get experience using them? I don't suppose i can try in any retail stores? I'm in the London area.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@ZwiGGy make a post, quoting your post code and ask if any member owns the machine you want to see and be willing to demonstrate


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

You can take a trip to Bella Barista:

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

@ZwiGGy I have a Decent 1.4 Pro, an original Londinium 1 and now, as of today, an Evo Leva. I am, from this weekend, going to replace the Decent with the Evo Leva at my Farmers Markets so if you'd like to see this, with the Vesuvius, you're very welcome. If you come towards the end of the opening hours it will be quieter and there'd be more time to have a go. They are in Barnes and Stroud Green, both in London. I can pm you details if you want


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

@Stevebee vesuvius vs evo yes please pretty please.. I'm in Barnet so not a million miles away..


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Stevebee Your going to have a queue at your stand...you could always sing for them as well 😇


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

@GrahamSPhillips no problem. FYI Saturday is Barnes Farmers Market SW13 9HG 8:30-14:00 Sunday is Stroud Green Farmers Market N4 3HB normally 10 - 14:30 but this Sunday is a Harvest Festival at Stroud, so ends later at 16:00. The last hour is best at both as it is much quieter then


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> @Stevebee Your going to have a queue at your stand...you could always sing for them as well 😇


 Wouldn't wish that on anyone! Wife even tried to stop my attempts in the shower 😬


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## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

Stevebee said:


> @ZwiGGy I have a Decent 1.4 Pro, an original Londinium 1 and now, as of today, an Evo Leva. I am, from this weekend, going to replace the Decent with the Evo Leva at my Farmers Markets so if you'd like to see this, with the Vesuvius, you're very welcome. If you come towards the end of the opening hours it will be quieter and there'd be more time to have a go. They are in Barnes and Stroud Green, both in London. I can pm you details if you want


 Quite the collection!

Is this farmers market in Barnes weekly? I can't come by this weekend unfortunately.

Would be interested to hear your thoughts and comparisons on all three machines too.


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

ZwiGGy said:


> Is this farmers market in Barnes weekly?


 Every Saturday, 8:30-14:00.

Only just got the Evo so going to need some time with it first, but out the box didn't take long to produce some great shots. Once you get your grind and prep right, it's very consistent


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ZwiGGy said:


> having said that, if a lot of people have good things to say about the Leva, and it is certainly no worse in terms of quality/repeatability as the LR, and its slightly cheaper, then perhaps it still comes out on top for me. time will tell (not enough feedback as of yet and not comfortable buying a product that isn't yet officially launched even). the silent pump noise of the LR is definitely a plus though.


 The Evo Leva is as launched as it's ever going to be.....so you are probably better off going for the Londinium R


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## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

Think i will go with the Lelit.

Its half the price of the LR24 (and almost half of the Evo).

For me the only benefit of the LR/Evo would be the "lever experience" but unfortunately that alone doesn't justify the price difference (for me).

Thanks again for everyone's input/.


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

ZwiGGy said:


> Think i will go with the Lelit.
> 
> Its half the price of the LR24 (and almost half of the Evo).
> 
> ...


 Congrats Wouldn't be my choice by everyone has different priorities which makes this game so fascinating.

The one thing that turned me off of the Bianca was it's usp /strength.

If I managed to produced a God Shot via the paddle what are the chances of me repeating that for the next shot! That's why the Vesuvius was better for me but that's jut me. The Bianca has great feedback & reviews . I'm sure you'll be happy


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## whinmoor85 (Jul 4, 2013)

Denis S said:


> I had the decent espresso and even wrote a review about it here:
> 
> https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fpresentation%2Fd%2F11LW68_U4e8mNTpioFNTUAQ_7ferRpkdZ5L3cdvir4zE%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing&e=ATObZbRjrRLtfigC6qdbx3sxW1oFSZCBWLofN-ZXcy4KvluhvwdUrKEDTv0xy1eW0djnNIn8dnixklut_-ZYYvzc6cKirtKk5dhv3w&s=1


 The link to your Decent review doesn't work anymore - is there anywhere else I can read it? No problem if not - thanks.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

decent probably asked nicely


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## whinmoor85 (Jul 4, 2013)

Cuprajake said:


> decent probably asked nicely


 I've found it on Denis' instagram


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## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

It works for me:

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/11LW68_U4c8mNTpioFNTUAQ_7ferRpkdZ6L3cdvir4zE/edit?usp=sharing

But for that you could send me a private message here or on instagram so you dont bring it into discussion here as I dont want to bash Decent by posting it everywhere every 2 days. Also this topic doesn't make the point of my review.


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## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

Stevebee said:


> Congrats Wouldn't be my choice by everyone has different priorities which makes this game so fascinating.
> 
> The one thing that turned me off of the Bianca was it's usp /strength.
> 
> If I managed to produced a God Shot via the paddle what are the chances of me repeating that for the next shot! That's why the Vesuvius was better for me but that's jut me. The Bianca has great feedback & reviews . I'm sure you'll be happy


 I get that paddle shots on the bianca are not 100 % repeatable but....

1. The vesuvius is also almost double the price

2. From what I know it doesn't have any unique qualities as compared to the other machines discussed. I.e if I was very keen on pressure profiling and repeatability I'd go for the de1 most likely because of its quick heat up, small footprint and other technical capabilities (but I get some may prefer the vesuvius looks or steam power ?).

3. I see pressure profiling as more of a gimmick/fun tool to experiment with. As I eluded to why I had discounted the de1, research tells me that in general, shots are equally good just different (except light roasts) on all these machines including lr24 and machines like the la Marzocco which don't even have profiling capabilities.

More than likely the 'God ' shot was due to perfect puck prep and actually your puck prep will cause more variances shot to shot.

Plus even though you can't 100% mimick shots once you start using the paddle, you still have a timer and pressure gauge to go off...will split second variances here and there really make a noticeable difference in cup?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

ZwiGGy said:


> The vesuvius is also almost double the price


 There's a deal Paolo is doing at the moment. Check the Classifieds. Hardly double the price!


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