# Is upgradeitis a good thing? Is the journey through upgrades worth doing or avoiding?



## BebeShanghai (Mar 28, 2018)

Reading through the threads and words of wisdom on this forum, it seems that upgradeitis is an inevitable part of the journey to better coffee, but I'm not sure if it's worth doing or avoiding.

So, I have a question. Is it better to leapfrog ahead, and go from an Aeropress to an Alex Duetto IV or Rocket R58, or are there rewards to be had from travelling more gradually along the journey? Could upgradeitis be a good thing, e.g. starting with an entry level machine and investing more gradually in better equipment?

To give context, my first purchase will be a Niche grinder, because I can see there's no point compromising here. I enjoy cappuccinos and love love foam - but have surprisingly become more interested than I ever would have expected whilst attempting to educate my taste buds using my new Aeropress and Porlex hand grinder, in black coffee, since I'm noticing different tastes and aromas that I just hadn't been able to notice before. Can't see I'll lose a taste for milky coffee totally though.

I'm wondering if I should get some amazing kit right now (double boiler for steaming, oohshiny, also hopefully something forgiving) so I can enjoy fabulous coffee and spend time experimenting with different beans and attempting latte art and not having to bother thinking about equipment again (apart from effective cleaning etc); or if I will enjoy the journey more by starting with more easily affordable equipment, feeling I've earned the right to better equipment over time (if I do actually become more discerning!), and if I'll learn better barista skills by learning through trial and error how to make great coffee on a wider variety of machines?

In terms of cost, I could just about justify what feels like a rather self-indulgent expense round about now. But I don't see the point in doing that if I could spend less to start with, learn more skills and enjoy/string out the process more.

I'd be very interested to know - have you enjoyed your journey to better equipment over the years, or would you have preferred some weighty prosumer kit to have appeared at the start?

Any thoughts and stories appreciated!


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

I'm still on the path so cant fully answer your question, however the journey can be very much part of the fun as well as working out the route to take. Some just go straight for a Londinium and K43 might be missing out on gaining an in depth understanding driven by their experience on the way. Others drop back to pour over and hand grinder as it is more satisfying for them.

My choice so far has been to try a Classic, - upgrade to a 64mm jolly Grinder - upgrade to a La Pavoni lever - upgrade to a 83mm Major

and that's where I'm at so far - what ive discovered is that I enjoy the challenge and results that a lever presents - timing, grind, temperature, lever pressure. Others try a lever and its not for them as they head for a prosumer shiny machine, often to continue to upgrade that machine over time - will I continue to upgrade, yes , spring lever probably.

I think its best to buy wisely based on experience and enjoy the journey,


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Wish someone told me this


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## Jacko112 (Oct 29, 2015)

I think it's all about the learning curve, none of us can jump straight into a F1 car at 17. For me it's all about discovering how different machines & grinders affect the taste


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## PaulL (May 5, 2014)

It's about two things really. Firstly experience in that the more equipment you learn to use and optimise and the broader this is in terms of types then you become proficient about understanding and therefore getting the best out of it, recognising problems and minor details with technique. Secondly, it's only a cup of coffee and there is no right or wrong about what you enjoy and how you enjoy it, otherwise it's so easy to lose sight of the right point for you in terms if investment, cleaning and hassle routines, making a drink, obtaining or roasting beans etc. and it should ultimately be all about just sitting enjoying a cup listening to music, in the car, in the morning, in the garden, with friends and family etc. etc.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

If I had my choice again I would miss out the upgrades and buy what I really wanted.

It is easy to make an average coffee on good kit. No temperature stability issues, consistent grind. Technique will improve over time.

Buying second hand and upgrading bit by bit wont lose you much money. If you buy new through your upgrades, expect to lose around 25%


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Ask yourself what you want your journey to be about . Personally I would buy the rocket in the for sale section as I See it as a bit of a bargain and then go from there , you should be able to sell a year later without to much loss and then either bail out or upgrade .

Dont forget to factor a decent grinder into the mix and expect to pay more than you thought was ever possible , because you will want to achieve the smallest of gains from your most precious beans .

Oh and all the must have goodies , there is quite a few people on here that have spent a couple of hundred squids on a pair of scales.(nutters)

so yeah go for it, having nice kit will just make your life easier , and get you producing good coffee before you know it .

creating espresso in home environment isn't easy , I'm afraid if you desire to be able to this you going to have to spend some cash , and as in life the more you spend the more comfortable your hotel room will be on journey .

Oh and dont forget to get some good beans , none of this works without them .


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I've loved every one of my machines and grinders. And learned a lot from them! I'm glad we had the Rocket Evo and Mini Mazzer and while I know now what I produced from them wasn't out of this world, it wasn't bad. I felt like a millionaire with that kit! I enjoyed my brief time with the R58 and E8 although looking back if I knew now I would maybe have skipped both for what I have now.

I think I have missed out having (not ever had a Gaggia, say) and I honestly stand in front of the coffee machines in John Lewis and wonder how a Nesoresso machine works! I DO! I wouldn't mind trying a sage DB and seeing what I could get from it. Too late for this Birthday now though


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Journey...where is it going. From the cup to your mouth.

Buy what you can afford and will enjoy.

The end point is making tasty brown stuff not having an encyclopedic knowledge of machines and grinders.

You learn little in practical terms from using entry level gear that you wouldn't learn from mid level stuff. Past a certain point upgrading just becomes mainly about wanting to own a certain piece of kit as opposed to any significant gains v the money it costs.

If you really want to be happy, buy a decent set up and never come back on the forum







.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

For me, I jumped well into the fray having to avoid a series of upgrades over perhaps years, my main reasoning behind that is the choice of equipment which is capable of producing a fairly good brew given beans that best suit our ( I am obliged to get the 'OUR' in, just take it as a disclaimer) taste means it's more down to my technique knowing I have reasonably good tackle, in effect it's me and my methods that need to be honed, a bad workman ( Sorry another disclaimer, WORKPERSON ) always blames his tools.

Take it as said in jest.

Jon.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

But the best you can afford, learn how to use it and if you think something is missing or you fancy something better then buy it. Life's too short to be making planned steps just dive in


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

GingerBen said:


> But the best you can afford, learn how to use it and if you think something is missing or you fancy something better then buy it. Life's too short to be making planned steps just dive in


I didn't want to play on the age bit, we're both the wrong side of ...............

  

All in good taste ........ I hope.

Jon.


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

It's all personal to each of us really, but I would say buy the best you can afford is good advice. If you think it would be fun to try the 'stepping stones' up to that ultimate aspirational machine, then do it. I'm still tempted by the stepping stone approach because I think it would be fun to experience all those other machines on the way, but what stops me is that I don't want to have the hassle (probably not much hassle to be honest though) of having to sell machines as I move onwards and upwards. For me, I've been very tempted by the Vesuvius machines, but I've decided what I really want is a Londinium, and will go for it in the next few months (in all likelihood at least!). As @GingerBen said above, life's too short - go for it!


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

If I had the cash & the space I'd have jumped straight in on mid level kit. Machines like my tebe & the classic are capable of making decent coffee but you do have to work around their shortcomings or mod them so why bother if you don't need to?


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

By the way, that's me on the left.......

Jon.


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

I've come into this seeing producing good coffee as an apprenticeship.

I feel you need experience at the 'lower end' which will stand you in good stead when you finally upgrade. Messing about with basic machines like classics really teach you a lot about internals and machine design. Because it can take a fair bit of effort to produce consistently good shots from them, it focuses your preparation routine and understanding of temperature control. They highlight the importance of pairing with the right grinder and how to exploit that pairing best. As they are cheaper and less complex, they allow you to make modifications (once you are comfortable) to take them closer to the capabilities of more expensive kit.. which again is another learning curve and more benficial experience.

In short I think a few years spent as a cabin boy will make you a better captain eventually. I feel I've come a long way since I began, but still have much to learn and am enjoying the journey.

Of course if you've got the cash and don't care about any of that then you should just go for what you want. Its your money after all. Though as someone else said on this thread, buying expensive kit doesn't guarantee good coffee.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Why do you need to know about machine internals and design to make coffee?

This concept of paying your dues to be able to make decent coffee is a strange concept indeed.

Your learn nothing practical by suffering through temp surfing other than its makes it difficult to make the same coffee twice in a row.

I am not advocating just spunking money on gear for the sake of it but if you want for example a rocket, buy a rocket, but it now.

Again people same to see the "journey" as learning about machines as opposed to just being able to make a tasty drink in a simple and repeatable manner.


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

I started with a De Longi which kept me amused for about three months. From there to a decent hand grinder and simple E61 machine to the current set up with a lightly used Rocket HX machine and a Eureka grinder in less than a year. Have a Niche on order but would love a Mythos. Will upgrade to a dual boiler or lever at some point but these potential upgrades are as much about aesthetics as performance. The Rocket and Eureka make very decent espresso without undue fuss and bother and any improvement is likely to be slight. I would probably be better off improving my palate and technique.

Save yourself a lot of grief and expense and go for a decent grinder and HX machine as a minimum if you can afford it. Better still, a double boiler. The path to this point can be frustrating and I'm not convinced you would learn anything useful by going through it. Better to learn on equipment which is known to produce good, consistent results from the outset.


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Why do you need to know about machine internals and design to make coffee?
> 
> This concept of paying your dues to be able to make decent coffee is a strange concept indeed.
> 
> ...


There was me thinking i was making a positive contribution to this thread.

This is my take on my journey........perhaps as an engineer by trade I have an inclination and natural curiousity about the way things work and this colours my take on things, but it doesnt make it any less valid an opinion than yours...

I did say people may not care one jot about all that and were free to spend as they see fit.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

jj-x-ray said:


> There was me thinking i was making a positive contribution to this thread.
> 
> This is my take on my journey........perhaps as an engineer by trade I have an inclination and natural curiousity about the way things work and this colours my take on things, but it doesnt make it any less valid an opinion than yours...
> 
> I did say people may not care one jot about all that and were free to spend as they see fit.


I'm in a similar vein to you in that as I drive my car I'm aware of what's it's taking to turn those wheels and get me in motion and it does make for considerations as I drive, likewise if I'm in a car and the driver lets the wipers keep going on a dry screen, it grates on me knowing the increased effort it's taking.

With any machine I like to know what's making it tick and just by listening, a small change in sound can identify a problem.

Jon.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

xpresso said:


> I'm in a similar vein to you in that as I drive my car I'm aware of what's it's taking to turn those wheels and get me in motion and it does make for considerations as I drive, likewise if I'm in a car and the driver lets the wipers keep going on a dry screen, it grates on me knowing the increased effort it's taking.
> 
> With any machine I like to know what's making it tick and just by listening, a small change in sound can identify a problem.
> 
> Jon.


There is a difference between understanding the basic maintenance a car needs (petrol and water) or the same for a coffee machine (petrol and water?) than knowing its intricate wiring and operation.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> There is a difference between understanding the basic maintenance a car needs (petrol and water) or the same for a coffee machine (petrol and water?) than knowing its intricate wiring and operation.


Appreciate what your saying 'M', but I find myself for arguments sake, in a lift and if I'm privvy to knowing it's method of motion, I'll understand the actions taking place to close the doors and the thruster lifting the brake band off the drive and so on, I only wish I could get to grips with understanding the same in electronics.

Jon.


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

jimbojohn55 said:


> My choice so far has been to try a Classic, - upgrade to a 64mm jolly Grinder - upgrade to a La Pavoni lever - upgrade to a 83mm Major ... and that's where I'm at so far


That's pretty typical. I'm still with the Classic. I like the small footprint. I upgraded from the Super Jolly to the Major and got a little more flavour. You can't go much above 83mm burrs so that looks like where I'll stop. You can get a Major for £200 on eBay on a good day with a following wind. Bastard to fetch at over 20 kilos - I went for mine (staggered) on the train.

The useful thing to know is where the "plateau of diminishing returns" is situated. In terms of grinders there's not much above 83mm burrs except for the Titans and maybe the Niche. In terms of espresso machines, probably something with a PID and a manometer so you have better control. These can be added to a Classic or Silvia, but there are some machines around £400 that have a PID e.g. Lelit PL41 PID. You might say the plateau starts with E61 machines, and there you have Lelit Mara, Quickmill Carola, Expobar Pulser, VBM Domobar and BFC Perfetta which are cheaper models starting round £750 new. Don't see them so often used. Or you might say the plateau starts with a lever machine. Take your pick.

Most here will tell you to start with the best grinder you can, and that's good advice.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

les24preludes said:


> That's pretty typical. I'm still with the Classic. I like the small footprint. I upgraded from the Super Jolly to the Major and got a little more flavour. You can't go much above 83mm burrs so that looks like where I'll stop. You can get a Major for £200 on eBay on a good day with a following wind. Bastard to fetch at over 20 kilos - I went for mine (staggered) on the train.


Just man up and get one of these - plus a wig and false nose / glasses set up - keep them in the trolly till the purchase is completed then surprise the seller by putting them on popping the grinder in the trolley and away you go, if you look closely most old lady's on public transport pushing these are actually forum members in disguise


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

How many bank holdups have you got away with so far, Jim?


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I wouldn't ask me, I'm keeping my gob shut..


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Rhys said:


> I wouldn't ask me, I'm keeping my gob shut..


Yep good idea,haha


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

BebeShanghai said:


> Reading through the threads and words of wisdom on this forum, it seems that upgradeitis is an inevitable part of the journey to better coffee, but I'm not sure if it's worth doing or avoiding.
> 
> So, I have a question. Is it better to leapfrog ahead, and go from an Aeropress to an Alex Duetto IV or Rocket R58, or are there rewards to be had from travelling more gradually along the journey? Could upgradeitis be a good thing, e.g. starting with an entry level machine and investing more gradually in better equipment?


A relatively low end machine/grinder that's hard work to produce a result that is often less than great....teaches you nothing. It might be seen as a rite of passage, but I personally don't see the point in using kit that is something you will pretty much always upgrade from for better results. It's also very expensive to keep upgrading unless you get used kit and then it depends on how well it's been maintained and how good you are at fixing it. The big problem is *you*, "don't know, what you don't know". You also don't have any idea of the actual experience of the many wise owls who will tell you to do this and do that. The Majority of people will have had 2, perhaps 3 machines in their life, possibly 2 or even 3 grinders, this isn't really enough experience to guide *you*.

So yes, it is worth avoiding upgrading too much if at all. The trouble is if you go very top end and get it wrong....it's a mistake that can prove costly as when the sharks circle they sense this and make silly offers if you try to sell. So perhaps go to something you're going to be happy with for a long time and that will make a good quality drink....by the time you want to upgrade from it (if you still do), you will be in no doubt exactly what you want.

Grinder wise....I think you're sorted. very good quality grind, something you should never really need to upgrade from....unless you will really taste the difference by buying a grinder for £1800+

Machine wise, look for a decent dual boiler...there will be machines...by the time you get your Niche from around £1200 - £1750 ish that should work out very good and you may decide you need upgrade no further, but if you do, then they will be easy enough to sell.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

les24preludes said:


> How many bank holdups have you got away with so far, Jim?[/quote
> 
> quite a few


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

jj-x-ray said:


> I've come into this seeing producing good coffee as an apprenticeship.
> 
> I feel you need experience at the 'lower end' which will stand you in good stead when you finally upgrade. Messing about with basic machines like classics really teach you a lot about internals and machine design. Because it can take a fair bit of effort to produce consistently good shots from them, it focuses your preparation routine and understanding of temperature control. They highlight the importance of pairing with the right grinder and how to exploit that pairing best. As they are cheaper and less complex, they allow you to make modifications (once you are comfortable) to take them closer to the capabilities of more expensive kit.. which again is another learning curve and more benficial experience.
> 
> ...


I agree completely


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Taking the vehicle / engineer thing in another direction.

I took my bike lessons on a 125 2 stroke Yamaha. It was noisy, what power it had was peaky and it wasn't that stable to ride. Test passed and I bought my first bike - 600cc's of Honda loveliness. Despite being apprehensive about the increased power I found that was so much easier to ride, much more balanced. The finish was so much better and it felt right. The engineer in me admired the finish and, although I had a basic understanding of what went on underneath the yards of faring, I didn't need to understand it in depth.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I sometimes think people want newcomers to feel the same pain they did in the coffee journey....seeing it as character building


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> I sometimes think people want newcomers to feel the same pain they did in the coffee journey....seeing it as character building


can't hurt lol


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

working dog said:


> Taking the vehicle / engineer thing in another direction.
> 
> I took my bike lessons on a 125 2 stroke Yamaha. It was noisy, what power it had was peaky and it wasn't that stable to ride. Test passed and I bought my first bike - 600cc's of Honda loveliness. Despite being apprehensive about the increased power I found that was so much easier to ride, much more balanced. The finish was so much better and it felt right. The engineer in me admired the finish and, although I had a basic understanding of what went on underneath the yards of faring, I didn't need to understand it in depth.


I decided to do a direct access course at 50 for something to do. Initially on something like the Yamaha and later on 500's of various makes. Passed my test and the first bike was this one









Mine was in 2 tone dark grey. Odd bike not well received but people who actually tried riding one liked them. Not much power though.

Next one was a 1200 Suzuki Bandit. Wonderful bike but at some point have to accept that the chain stretches.







Given that people use it of course. They last well too providing the valves are adjusted regularly.

I commuted on various things on L plates when young. Broke the same collar bone twice and decided to get a car. Seems if some one just pulls out of a side road in front of me and no chance of stopping I favour hitting them on my left side.

John

-


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> I sometimes think people want newcomers to feel the same pain they did in the coffee journey....seeing it as character building


Gotta pay your dues and make inconsistent frustrating coffee before being allowed to have a decent machine.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ajohn said:


> I decided to do a direct access course at 50 for something to do. Initially on something like the Yamaha and later on 500's of various makes. Passed my test and the first bike was this one


Looks good and importantly, comfortable to ride. I used to have a Honda CBR1000 FJ full power version, it was quick...very quick and nice and comfy, you could ride a good mileage on it and get off whilst still being able to feel your backside. I also had a Harley (fatboy) like the Terminator one for a while and although nice to ride, it was so expensive, I couldn't stand it any longer and sold it after a year or so. Every time I walked into the Garage I could see 10 grand staring at me (it was 15 years ago). Sometimes....I wish I still had it!

In fact I have a photo of it with my Son on it when he was under 2 years old.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

On the bike theme..

I took my test before direct access so didn't have the 33bhp nonsense to deal with. Straight from a wheezing 125 to a CBR600. I can see the sense of DAS.

Rode my mates ex wifes 1200 bandit (race exhaust, dynojet, K&N plus a few other tweaks to increase the power (like it needed it !) Lovely bike for long journeys (although it did end up being shipped home by the AA when it sprung an oil leak while we were at Assen)

When we moved to this house I wasn't riding it and spent more money on 'bits' for the bike than I rode it (back to the coffee analogy, I guess). So like @DavecUK I sold it - sad days !


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I went looking for a comfy Honda when I bought the Bandit but that was the first bike I looked at thinking I wouldn't be buying it. It's a nice comfy bike and extremely quick up to certain speeds - 80 odd mph or so. Past that I prefer to be in a car -







Not that I have ever done 150mph plus on a motorway of course. No one in their right mind would do that would they.

I decided that at a certain age we don't bounce too well and often on bikes it's some one else that causes the bounces so it had to be sold.

:bad:My self maintained silly cars have had to go as well. Probably a good idea as well really as running costs could be prohibitive even via the DIY route.

John

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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Im think I'm being mocked, but I genuinely get something out of it....not something I think I have to do or else, but something I enjoy doing....and I have definitely learnt a lot. More than that it's encouraged me to seek out more knowledge. I think if I went straight in with an expensive machine, I'd be less inclined to tinker, though no doubt I'd be happy with the excellent coffee, but as I mentioned my interest goes deeper than that.

Would I jump at the opportunity to own a Ferrari now (to continue the car analogy)..of course I bloody would! but I also enjoyed tinkering and fixing up my old mini as a lad, which taught me a lot about cars.

Never owned a motorbike..wish I had though


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

jj-x-ray said:


> Im think I'm being mocked,


As if we'd do that here!



> but I genuinely get something out of it....not something I think I have to do or else, but something I enjoy doing....and I have definitely learnt a lot. More than that it's encouraged me to seek out more knowledge. I think if I went straight in with an expensive machine, I'd be less inclined to tinker, though no doubt I'd be happy with the excellent coffee, but as I mentioned my interest goes deeper than that.
> 
> Would I jump at the opportunity to own a Ferrari now (to continue the car analogy)..of course I bloody would! but I also enjoyed tinkering and fixing up my old mini as a lad, which taught me a lot about cars.
> 
> Never owned a motorbike..wish I had though


I loved the good old days of chrome bumpers I could polish, paintwork I could buff, soft top roofs that flew up on their own accord! Cars had character back then


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

jj-x-ray said:


> Im think I'm being mocked, but I genuinely get something out of it....not something I think I have to do or else, but something I enjoy doing....and I have definitely learnt a lot. More than that it's encouraged me to seek out more knowledge. I think if I went straight in with an expensive machine, I'd be less inclined to tinker, though no doubt I'd be happy with the excellent coffee, but as I mentioned my interest goes deeper than that.
> 
> Would I jump at the opportunity to own a Ferrari now (to continue the car analogy)..of course I bloody would! but I also enjoyed tinkering and fixing up my old mini as a lad, which taught me a lot about cars.
> 
> Never owned a motorbike..wish I had though


If you feel they are mocking you, then they are also mocking me, a classic example is DaveC, he knows what makes machines tick or not and only by understanding the basics and deviations from the basics do you get either improvements or failures, no one got anywhere standing still.

Next.........

Jon.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I'm not sure how helpful the motorbike analogy is. With bikes, unlike coffee machines (IMO) there's something to be said for learning on more modest machines. A 17 year old with a freshly stamped CBT certificate will not benefit from getting a ZZR1400. He'll either kill himself or learn to ride so carefully that he'll never get much out of it. Small bikes ridden hard are also more fun than riding a superbike slowly. I went 50-125-500-600-1000-675 and, had the GPz500s not been so unreliable, I'd have stayed with it for longer to really get confident chucking it around before moving up to the FZR600R. A GPz500 that only fired on 1 cylinder half the time is worse than the much-despised GPz305. Now I've sold the Fazer 1000s and downsized to the Street Triple I have more fun and am probably quicker unless I'm riding to, round and back from the Nürburgring.

Coffee machines are different. Spending more usually just helps you get temperature stability under control, plus a healthy dose of steam. I always think it's a bitter (pun intended) irony that newbies often shy away from top end kit on the basis that they are not 'expert enough' - yet they would benefit most from a machine that didn't require funny handshakes and water dances to get results. I agree with DavecUK and Mrboots that, once you know you're definitely going to stick with home espresso, just get the best you can afford and save all the buying and selling (unless you are one of those who enjoys buying and selling in which case crack on...)

As a newbie I would never have gone straight for the R58/E37s combo I now own, as it would have seemed insane to blow so much cash. With hindsight, maybe I should have, but I didn't lose much in the process. I'm on my 2nd machine and 4th grinder. I dipped my toe in the water with the usual Classic/MC2 combo. Once I realised their shortcomings and what the benefits were of better machines, I understood what I was buying, and had by then concluded that I would be sticking with home espresso for the foreseeable future, and have tried to keep upgraditis at bay by buying the best stuff I could afford. But then I hate buying and selling, and rarely have the disposable income to upgrade purely out of FOMO or curiosity.

There's no right or wrong - if you can afford lots of buying and selling, and enjoy the thrill of the chase or trying new kit (and don't mind the hassle or the risk of the courier playing football with your Slayer!) - then why not?

But I don't think it's necessary to gradually work your way through SBDU/HX/DB, or various manual and spring lever machines in order to learn how to make good coffee.

_______

Eat, drink and be merry


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

hotmetal said:


> I'm not sure how helpful the motorbike analogy is. With bikes, unlike coffee machines (IMO) there's something to be said for learning on more modest machines. A 17 year old with a freshly stamped CBT certificate will not benefit from getting a ZZR1400. He'll either kill himself or learn to ride so carefully that he'll never get much out of it. Small bikes ridden hard are also more fun than riding a superbike slowly. I went 50-125-500-600-1000-675 and, had the GPz500s not been so unreliable, I'd have stayed with it for longer to really get confident chucking it around before moving up to the FZR600R. A GPz500 that only fired on 1 cylinder half the time is worse than the much-despised GPz305. Now I've sold the Fazer 1000s and downsized to the Street Triple I have more fun and am probably quicker unless I'm riding to, round and back from the Nürburgring.
> 
> Coffee machines are different. Spending more usually just helps you get temperature stability under control, plus a healthy dose of steam. I always think it's a bitter (pun intended) irony that newbies often shy away from top end kit on the basis that they are not 'expert enough' - yet they would benefit most from a machine that didn't require funny handshakes and water dances to get results. I agree with DavecUK and Mrboots that, once you know you're definitely going to stick with home espresso, just get the best you can afford and save all the buying and selling (unless you are one of those who enjoys buying and selling in which case crack on...)
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more. Everything transferable you can learn on a cheaper machine can also be learnt on a higher end one that'll give more consistant results.

As for the GPz500, there's a reason alot of couriers went for CB500's back then. Not that I'm biased.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Yeah the GP-shed was the worst bike I ever had. Loved my 70s Vespa more than the Krapasaki. I put 70,000 miles on the FZR with almost no issues (apart from it not having side impact protection system unlike the Volvo that killed it)


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## BebeShanghai (Mar 28, 2018)

True! It's so very easy to get carried away with specs and shininess though


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

You could always do a training course to get a feel of the maxhines first. Either way they're worth doing to remove the trial & error when you're starting out.


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## BebeShanghai (Mar 28, 2018)

This. Yes. I had in my mind that it would be fun learning but I have already suffered through many of my own badly made coffees so actually anything that helps consistent tastiness would be a very good thing indeed!


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## BebeShanghai (Mar 28, 2018)

Very wise - I'll check out barista courses this afternoon. Looking forward to it!


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## BebeShanghai (Mar 28, 2018)

Ok that's clearly not how I'm supposed to respond to people individually!


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

There's a 'reply with quote' button next to the 'reply' one.











BebeShanghai said:


> Ok that's clearly not how I'm supposed to respond to people individually!


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## Grahamg (Oct 24, 2013)

My tuppence worth on the upgrade thing: avoiding a gaggia classic and jumping straight to a machine with some semblance of temperature stability is probably a good way to avoid too much frustration. After that it's far more about the grinder IMO, the difference an upgrade can make there is staggering and you'll find plenty of comments on here to that effect.

I'm now on my 5th grinder, only my third machine though. The grinder changes have all been at minimal cost (buying & selling used bar my recent take win!) but the experience far more useful and informative than the machine changes.

Nothing beats experience so I'll still give more weight to the views of those on here who have had more coffee kit than hot dinners, but some of what I've learned from the different grinders I've had is contrary to broader opinion on here. However this is all in relation to my (and my wife's) preferences drink-wise, and I think we sometimes lose track of individuals' drink tastes and how that should probably influence recommendations/suggestions kit wise (the real knowledgeable folk always try and establish this though, but it's hard if people are vague or simply can't express their preference beyond "good coffee".


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## BebeShanghai (Mar 28, 2018)

Huge thanks for the many replies and food for thought.

I love the idea of becoming more skilled and discerning but on balance have already suffered through enough of my own badly made coffee and am fairly disorganised, so I'm now planning to just get the best machine I can to help me just make great coffee easily and consistently so I can enjoy it while sitting in the sun and listening to music! Or whatever  And do a barista training course to make the most out of it and for fun. Great advice - thanks.

The upgrade path would be interesting but since I live in China and can't easily/ confidently source machines that aren't way more expensive vs the UK, it wouldn't be straightforward. Anyway this has all reminded me that I owned my first Gaggia espresso machine when I was 17 -no idea what model it was, we're talking nearly 3 decades ago- but that teeny tiny little thing powered my way through many student nights! Then used a French press for decades before attempting espressos a few years back with a BTC DeLonghi Magnifica which blew itself up within 2 months and was returned, but by that time I had decided that I wanted the whole ritual to be a lot more hands on and experiential. (Although all this hand-grinding stuff that I'm doing at the moment every time I want to make a couple of cups of coffee - a bit too experiential!!)

Re the bike analogy - I now ride an e-scooter (!) and the only time I was ever on something beastier, rode it into a car (!! fortunately no-one was hurt. Never tell a novice rider to 'go' and 'turn left' at the same time, particularly if they are in heels). Tellingly, at no time did I ever understand the more involved technical aspects of either.

Now I just need to try out a few machines and see what takes my fancy. Thank you!!!


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## BebeShanghai (Mar 28, 2018)

Grahamg said:


> My tuppence worth on the upgrade thing: avoiding a gaggia classic and jumping straight to a machine with some semblance of temperature stability is probably a good way to avoid too much frustration. After that it's far more about the grinder IMO, the difference an upgrade can make there is staggering and you'll find plenty of comments on here to that effect.
> 
> I'm now on my 5th grinder, only my third machine though. The grinder changes have all been at minimal cost (buying & selling used bar my recent take win!) but the experience far more useful and informative than the machine changes.
> 
> Nothing beats experience so I'll still give more weight to the views of those on here who have had more coffee kit than hot dinners, but some of what I've learned from the different grinders I've had is contrary to broader opinion on here. However this is all in relation to my (and my wife's) preferences drink-wise, and I think we sometimes lose track of individuals' drink tastes and how that should probably influence recommendations/suggestions kit wise (the real knowledgeable folk always try and establish this though, but it's hard if people are vague or simply can't express their preference beyond "good coffee".


Yes, that's what I'm looking forward to finding out - even just drinking coffee without milk these last few weeks has been eye-opening in terms of noticing a variety of flavours and aromas. I'm used to drowning out bitterness with milk. I'm hoping that the journey forward once I have my setup will be one through beans rather than machines!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I suspect that assuming spending more will give "better" results could turn out to be disappointing. I haven't used a Classic though. I have used a Piccino - mechanical thermostat and no light to indicate that the brew boiler heating is on. It gave me stable results perhaps because I knew that the machine needed time to heat up and that the portafilter is best used hot as well and that generally it's best to flush the portafilter and basket that is going to be used before pulling the shot. Then the grinds are added and the shot is pulled.

What I can say that is really different about the 3 machines I have used is taste. For similar strength levels they all need different quantities of grounds. 2 have pre infusion the Piccino doesn't. The fact that taste varies doesn't really mean there is anything wrong with them. i enjoy the drinks from all of them when I have sorted the tuning out - grind, quantity and shot time. On the other hand I wont be using one bean that I used on the BE fairly regularly on the DB as I don't seem to be able to get the same taste what ever I do.

Tuning can take a while. For instance new bean and around 20 drinkable shots now. Actually none down the sink. The last few have tasted as the bean should - some say summer fruits sometimes pineapple is mention. I have that now but not as acidic as the description might suggest. One problem my wife doesn't like it - she does like much sharper summer fruits. Next task is can I bend the taste to suite her with same grind and quantity. It might just need the shot time reducing.

Grinders are a whole different ball game. Taste again can vary and who is to say which gives the best taste? I for instance might find that my favourite bean is best ground in my Sage grinder or some other conical burr grinder. That's why I have a Robur coming on line. If this is the case an 80 odd mm dia flat burr grinder would be a very bad idea - for me.

When I bought my first machine I did have problems. I didn't see it as frustration though more the need to find out how to use it.







Maybe that's down to the power of positive thought.

John

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