# I Feel Fine [A look at sifting]



## Earlepap

Inspired by the recent talk of sifting coffee, and in a continued effort to improve the clarity of my brews, I decided to have a dig through the cupboards for a fine sieve to see if I could test the affect in my usual not-particularly-scientific way. This is what I found -










It's a pretty fine mesh. I'd say 0.5-1mm size holes, and it's a useful shape.

I used Has Bean Taypiplaya Jatun Kollo Mountain (roasted 11/06), as I'm pretty familiar with the beans and know what sort of tastes I should be getting. As for brew method, I used the aeropress again since it's the most repeatable to hand.

Technique-wise I gave James Bailey's recent Brewer's Cup entry a go since from his description, it was the sort of cup profile I was after and I figured the long steep time would expose different particle size extractions well.

Of course I've no idea exactly what his grind size was but I did my best to approximate it, knowing it was similar to a cupping particle size and should form a nice crust in an inverted aeropress.

14g coffee, 230ml water at 95c (approximated by leaving a minute off boil, that could be way to short/long!), 4min steep inverted, brief swirl with initial pour, break crust at end of steep and plunge over 20sec, stopping pre-hiss. Brita filtered water. Mahlkonig Vario grinder.

Firstly tried without any sifting. Result had a great body and mouth feel, but tastes were muddled and there was fairly strong hints of bitterness. Pretty much what I'd expected.

Next up, sieve time. I measured out 15g to grind, as some would be lost through the sifting.








Post-grind (notice awesome grind retention of Vario).

I poured the grinds into the sieve inside another cup and fairly vigorously shaked it about for a bit with my hand over the top so none spilled out. I weighed what went through the sieve -










Wow, 1.7g!










The grinds that went through the sieve.

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/7646/coarsescale.jpg

Those that didn't (and went into the brew, with amount of water altered for new grind weight).

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/3266/grindcompare.jpg

Sifted and not, side by side.

So, quite an alarming amount of small particles I thought. Since the sieve is too large a mesh to only filter out 'fines', it can't be said that these are all necessarily undesirable but it does show the range in particle size at a coarser setting on the Vario. This has been documented elsewhere, with equipment to measure and graphs and stuff!

The important part though - did brewing with the sifted grinds make a better cup? Yes. Not perfect, but certainly better. Any bitterness had gone, and if anything it was a little underextracted. As ever this could be down to other variables, but I could certainly have left it steeping for longer. If I'd done this with the un-sifted grinds, it would have definitely been pretty bitter.

This is very much a cursory glance, and with the limitations of home equipment and no refractometer is hard to speak in certainties. That's always the case, but I can now subjectively and empirically say I would favour sifting*. It does not improve the consistency of the grind above the size of the the mesh-holes, but losing those finer particles definitely cleaned up the cup, and that clarity can only lead to better taste and more room to play with other variables.

*Not for all grind sizes! At the coarseness I used here, 11% of the original weight was lost through the sieve. I'm willing to take that loss, but even so it's a whole 27.5g of a bag wasted. Naturally this would increase the finer the grind. I'm going to experiment further with other brew methods to see how it effects them, but for now I'd hypothesise that it's only really worth it for french press, cupping, and maybe chemex.

Feel free to flame, de-bunk or ignore.


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## garydyke1

Great stuff. So. Are we ordering that 250 micron mesh or what ?


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## Earlepap

Going to give them a call tomorrow Gary to check it's suitable. I'll keep you posted.


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## JohnnieWalker

That's certainly a great visual way of showing the different grind sizes produced by a grinder.

I'd love to see this done with a range of grinders, from budget to expensive and compare the difference.

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## lookseehear

After seeing this earlier I gave it a go too - although my sieve is probably a bit too coarse (let a lot through). I used the has bean petrona in aeropress with james Bailey's recipe and it was a really nice cup - far sweeter on cooling than previously although I haven't tried it in aeropress unsieved to compare.

I'd be really interested to have a play with one of those sieves too if they have more than 2 in stock!


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## Earlepap

I ordered three this morning. PM your addresses Gary and lookseehear so I can forward them on once they arrive. £10.72 + postage (guess that'll be a quid or two?).

I explained coffee extraction and particle sizes to the guy on the phone. I think he thought I was a bit weird.


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## Outlaw333

I tried this with my Mazzer a couple of months ago and it looked very similar to the Vario in terms of percentage of fines, what can be said for the Vario though is that the level of 'Shards' and mis-shapen particles seems a bit lower. My Mazzers course grind is sooo unpredictable though, sometimes it is really great and other times it produces literally a mix of shards and powder with nothing in between!

Great job on photographing and documenting your study by the way it made for a quality read.


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## Outlaw333

Also, with all that air contact time while sifting do you recon there was any measurable staling of the coffee?

WAIT ONE SECOND! you have just stumbled upon a brilliant answer to the question of communicating grind settings to others!! Photographing with a coin for scale is the perfect solution!!


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## Earlepap

The improved clarity outweighed any detrimental effect of the increased air time. I don't think I'd be able to notice the difference anyway. Maybe.

I tried using the sieve on a much finer v60 grind. As predicted it removed far too much to even try brewing. Will have to wait for the copepod strainers to arrive to test true 'fines' removal.

[edit]

A chemex made with grinds one macro notch finer than pictured, and then sifted, removed 12.5% weight and tasted freaking awesome.


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## garydyke1

I think benefits are bound to be realised in the cup by removing 10% of starting bean weight in true fines (

Not sure how much time this will add to the workflow, I like water to be hitting grinds ASAP post grinding


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## jimbow

Sifting was one of the things that alerted me to the uneven grind my Dualit grinder was producing. I have not tried it yet with the Virtuoso but the amount of dust out of the Dualit was truly horrifying. This was also shown up in my, rather unscientific, throw the grinds against the sides of the wet filter paper and see how much sticks test. The Virtuoso is a clear winner in this test so I hold high hopes that when sifted it will produce fewer fines (and therefore less wastage!)

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## Earlepap

I had an idea of grinding into something charged with static, making the fine stuff stick to the sides. Then you just pour all the coarse grinds into your brewer.


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## Outlaw333

My idea was to grind into a tall vessel around 10/15% more than you need and shaking it so all the fines found their way to the bottom and then using a scoop to scoop into another vessel on the scales


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## Squall

Did anyone see the sifting tower thingy John Gordon used during the UK brewing competition? The coffee was sifted from top to bottom, with each level allowing gradually finer grounds. I would definitely want one of those!


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## Earlepap

I'm going to try and make something like that. I've already saved lots of toilet rolls and am poised with the sticky back plastic. It's taking Mum ages to finish the Fairy Liquid though.


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## jimbow

I forget what it is called but such devices are often used in particle distribution analysis.

http://coffeechemistry.com/index.php/vmchk/Lab-Equipment/Coffee-Grind-Sizer.html

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## MikeHag

Ro-Tap probably. I think you can just buy the sieves without the shaking motor, but maybe you do need some sort of shaking mechanism for it to work well. I saw one of the competitors the UK Brewers Cup using the Tanzania's bag shaker to do the trick.


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## pendragoncs

Had a search this morning and found this...

http://www.clevelandvibrator.com/newsarticle.aspx?id=6

Not suitable but the headline gave me a giggle, was wondering if I was going to have to start looking for coffee kit in Anne Summers.

Sorry for lowering the tone..carry on


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## garydyke1

Using the 250 micron mesh:

Starting with 18g coffee , grinding at '18' on my Maestro

Shaking the grinds still in the Maestro container and tapping on counter for 10 seconds , removing the top 15g (3g of smaller particles have sunk below)

Placing the 15g into the tube , covering the top with my hand and shaking vigorously over a sheet of white paper for 20 seconds.

0.1g of fines are on the paper. a further 0.1g of fines have clung to the tube

I then add the 14.8g of grind into the V60 and proceed to brew as normal with 245g of water

The brew finishes 45 seconds quicker than normal ...and is under extracted....however the flavour is very very clean and refreshing, aromatics are good..not a sniff of bitterness

I suspect the grind could be setting '15' or '16' to compensate for overall particle size being bigger!

End cup any better than before? Different yes, better ...hmmm maybe.

** after thought - the mesh seems to get clogged quite easily, I suspect an additional 30 seconds shaking and de-clogging would allow removal of more fines but meanwhile the coffee is going stale...I think a set number of x seconds shaking at least allows repeatability

Maybe less (or more) fines will be removed with a finer grind settings in x seconds, too many experiments , so little time.

I need to define x.....ill stick with 30 seconds


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## lookseehear

I received my 250 micron sieve this morning (thanks Rowan!) I'm yet to try it but if I finish work early enough to justify coffee when I get home then i'll give it a go.

I'm interested purely for interests sake - I can't imagine it's something I would do every day.


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## garydyke1

It could double up as a crazy coffee brewer, add grinds, shake, add hot water , lol

actually , it might just work!


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## JamesG

garydyke1 said:


> I suspect the grind could be setting '15' or '16' to compensate for overall particle size being bigger!
> 
> Interestingly - Matt Perger talks in an interview, after winning the Brewers Cup, about needing to up the extraction percentage when using a sieve. He was aiming for 23% extraction in his performances. Check it out here: http://sprudge.com/feelin-fines-breaking-down-matt-pergers-world-brewers-cup-win.html.


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## garydyke1

So today I refined my shaking technique and managed to obtain 0.7g of fines through the screen and 0.4g of smaller particles stuck via static to the tube from 16g in 30seconds at setting '21'. Normally I would do a CCD brew with setting '22' or '23'....so using my parameters '21' would cause over-extraction. This wasnt the case, however the end result didnt blow me away. It was a little flat, clean for sure, not bitter, not sour but not that sweet either.

Maybe fine removal has removed some of the 'soul' from the cup?


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## tribs

garydyke1 said:


> Maybe fine removal has removed some of the 'soul' from the cup?


Ha ha. Could be, yes. Maybe try adding some of the fines back half way through the brew so less likely to over extract.


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## garydyke1

I cant help but feel the 30 seconds of shaking is making the grinds slightly stale. Would be better if the grinder didnt produce them in the first place!

Every solution points to the Uber grinder


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## MWJB

GaryDyke wrote: "I cant help but feel the 30 seconds of shaking is making the grinds slightly stale. Would be better if the grinder didnt produce them in the first place!"

Confucious asks, "what if that grinder didn't make them in the first place...but took 30 seconds longer to grind?" ;-) Perhaps you are right, the lack of fines robbing the cup of soul? You ground finer, reduced the "finer" fines that would otherwise have overextracted, but perhaps overdid it? What happens at "20"...or "19"?


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## garydyke1

These questions have already plagued my mind

All this isnt helping my OCD haha


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## MWJB

Buying an Uber grinder will only surely cure a bout of GAS, but I suspect the writing is already on the wall on that front  ...it'll just give the OCD another avenue in which to manifest itself. ;-) Plus it's going to be expensive...I mean, how many more sieves are you going to need?


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## Outlaw333

The thing is Gary, are your unsifted brews tasting good?

You have a maestro plus, Colin Harmon recently said that he has been playing with a little Baratza in 3FE and he said while it is no Uber Grinder, it is brilliant and they are totally happy with the quality in the cup, so it is a capable little dude. Do you recon it's time to look away from the grind and the fines (which if under 20% are deemed by most as pretty negligible) and work on different brew techniques to alter brew characteristics and quality, the grind is only one member of the symphony orchestra that is brewed coffee!!

I know you know all that, i'm just offering you a less expensive focus for your Obsessive Coffee Disorder! I'm throwing mine at my Chemex technique right now to try and ready myself for the Brewers Cup.


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## Earlepap

Do you like the Kollo Mountain Outlaw?


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## Outlaw333

Yes! its lovely stuff, I put it through the Lido earlier and its super juicy and berry like, it really reminds me of Finca La Reforma. I can see why steve said its a confused Bolivian that thinks its african, I thought it shared some qualiies of the Sidamo Guji actually.

Ah, that reminds me, I've got some of Extracts new single origin offerings on their way tomorrow, if I think you will like them i'll let you know.


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## garydyke1

Outlaw333 said:


> The thing is Gary, are your unsifted brews tasting good?
> 
> You have a maestro plus, Colin Harmon recently said that he has been playing with a little Baratza in 3FE and he said while it is no Uber Grinder, it is brilliant and they are totally happy with the quality in the cup, so it is a capable little dude. Do you recon it's time to look away from the grind and the fines (which if under 20% are deemed by most as pretty negligible) and work on different brew techniques to alter brew characteristics and quality, the grind is only one member of the symphony orchestra that is brewed coffee!!
> 
> I know you know all that, i'm just offering you a less expensive focus for your Obsessive Coffee Disorder! I'm throwing mine at my Chemex technique right now to try and ready myself for the Brewers Cup.


Im perfectly happy with non-sifted brews from the M+, the grind quality is leagues ahead of the Porlex. I just look to keep challenging myself and taking coffee to the next level, squeezing as much as I can out of each brew. So much sifting on display at the brewers cup(s) needed to see if I can get improved results at home.

Not really considering an Uber, finances are all going into buying a house...if that ever happens!


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## Outlaw333

Don't get me wrong I also do what I can to push the boundries and I have even tried sifting in the past but as you also discovered I found all that air time was staling the coffee and I also believe as you touched apon that sifting seemed to kill the spirit of the brew! I have come to think a small amount of fines actually benefits and is very important to the brew for some unknown reason. I am finding that i can break the boundries of flavour just by altering my pouring technique, ratios, speed, time etc, now I have the Lido I'm actually thinking that I don't know how much better coffee could taste?! Not that it will stop me trying of course!

Maybe you should sell your M+ and get a Lido ordered?

My brother noticed something this morning actually that I hadn't noticed yet but he stuck his nose in the catch jar and pointed out that the ground coffee from the Lido smells absolutely amazing and I then realised that despite the grind taking longer than the Mazzer the aroma of the grinds had extra layers of complexity and really did smell incredible, 100x better than out of the Mazzer, I don't know why this would be, maybe the slower grind or something but I would Imagine that that quality alone is contributing substantially to the final brew, so that to me would say for brewed coffee, hand grinding is the way forward! unless you have a Ditting or Uber maybe!


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## garydyke1

Outlaw333 said:


> Don't get me wrong I also do what I can to push the boundries and I have even tried sifting in the past but as you also discovered I found all that air time was staling the coffee and I also believe as you touched apon that sifting seemed to kill the spirit of the brew! I have come to think a small amount of fines actually benefits and is very important to the brew for some unknown reason. I am finding that i can break the boundries of flavour just by altering my pouring technique, ratios, speed, time etc, now I have the Lido I'm actually thinking that I don't know how much better coffee could taste?! Not that it will stop me trying of course!
> 
> *Maybe you should sell your M+ and get a Lido ordered? *My brother noticed something this morning actually that I hadn't noticed yet but he stuck his nose in the catch jar and pointed out that the ground coffee from the Lido smells absolutely amazing and I then realised that despite the grind taking longer than the Mazzer the aroma of the grinds had extra layers of complexity and really did smell incredible, 100x better than out of the Mazzer, I don't know why this would be, maybe the slower grind or something but I would Imagine that that quality alone is contributing substantially to the final brew, so that to me would say for brewed coffee, hand grinding is the way forward! unless you have a Ditting or Uber maybe!


I wouldnt say the grind quality would be that vastly improved . The smell of grinds from the M+ is aromatic heaven


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## Outlaw333

Do you recon they smell better than espresso grinds from Roy? Also do you recon burr shape has some bearing on flavour and aroma characteristics?


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## Earlepap

If you do sell your M+, I'll buy it.


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