# Pergtamp vs Torr 58.55



## dave_in_gva (Feb 18, 2015)

Both these tampers have been out for a while now.

I've heard only a couple of people who've had experience with both and they both seemed to prefer the Torr by a small margin.

Any other comments from those who've used both? Any people use a refractometer to assess the claimed extraction yield increases? I've seen alot of people saying they were going to do that but no followup.

Best,

Dave M


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I only have one tamper - the perger one. I enjoy using it , and it tamps well







... I have a refractomer but I do not have any other tampers to do side by side tests with....plus the time , energy or the skills to make fair tests either way....

I havent used a torr one so again can't comment on this either.

The systemic kid had both I believe. He would be well placed to give you an objective opinion.

Another useful post by me there ...//


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I could do a Torr 58.4 v 58.55 test but don't necessarily trust my prep skills enough to make the diameter of the tamper enough for that to be the only variable


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Have a Pergtamp and Torr Titan Ti. Aesthetically, the Torr wins. The Perg is functional - the Torr is beautiful. Love fest apart, the two have some important differences. The Torr is noticeably lighter if you go for titanium. This isn't a problem in use but there is an interesting psychological factor that associates heft with being somehow better.

Where the Pergamp comes into its own is how it sits in the basket - VST of course for which it was specifically designed. You can place your thumb and first finger on the top part of the base where it meets the top of the portafilter basket so it's much easy to keep the tamp perpendicular to the basket which is important. The Torr's design makes this more difficult so you are left using your eye to get the puck level. So I find the Perg easier to get a level puck.

Both tamps do real justice to VSTs ensuring even tamp across the entire basket area. As for which is best - for me it's the Perg when I want just function and the Torr for when function, by itself, just isn't enough.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Happy to test side-by-side on a mythos One or EK43 new version / VA Black Eagle combo, if anyone want to send one ; )


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## dave_in_gva (Feb 18, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> The Torr's design makes this more difficult so you are left using your eye to get the puck level. So I find the Perg easier to get a level puck.


Thanks all, and Systemic Kid very happy you commented as your earlier comparison remarks on the Torr 58.55 thread were the ones I was thinking of when I mentioned I'd seen very little comparisons made between the two. Thing is, looking at your above comment it seems you now find it easier to tamp level with the Perg whereas earlier you had said the Torr's level top to the disc made tamping level easier. All fine, just interesting to see how your thoughts evolved on this.

As background to why I am interested in all this stuff...I have been using the (somewhat oddball) Dezco tamper that briefly surfaced say 12 years ago. A spring loaded design that ensured constant pressure (remember the "precise 30 lb" rage then?).

Looking back, it would be hard to argue the Dezco hurt with a uniform pressure but probably more importantly the tamping disc always tamped perfectly level since it registered from a collar that sat on the basket rim.

That's done me for many a year but I have recently gone through a rather serious upgrade flurry (Vesuvius and HGOne) and have gone to all VST baskets with the new gear. I've been suprised to see more channeling now than before. My oddball Dezco has a 57mm tamping disc so I began thinking of moving up to a bigger one. I wasn't even aware of all this hubbub about the Pergtamp and the new Torr till yesterday but figure if I am in the market for a new tamper I may as well go with one of them and wanted to hear from people who may have tried both.

It seems CC is the man to turn to to purchase a Torr, although I may drop Jens a line as I am in Switzerland and it seems a bit daft to send to the UK and then have it come back this way.

Is Hasbean still the best price for the Pergtamp? I checked yesterday and it was available at £99.50.

Dave


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

the chaneling could be down to the grinder, i found the hg one channelled like hell when i used one and would never go back to one since having an e10


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dave_in_gva said:


> Is Hasbean still the best price for the Pergtamp? I checked yesterday and it was available at £99.50.


Dont know if cheapest but they are in stock, ready to ship


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> The Perg is functional - the Torr is beautiful.


I've not seen the torr in the flesh but from the pics I've seen I prefer the look of the Pergtamp, obviously a personal preference though









I'm sure that both will deliver similar results in the cup as they are the same diameter which was the USP of the Pergtamp. The other details are presumably less important.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

the torr will also take a knock and wont lose its edge if dropped! (you shouldnt be dropping tampers anyway)


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Torr will be lighter as its Titanium. Mine has a metal handle so its weighs the same as my other Torr ones (approx 350g) so I would recommend a heavier handle if you go for the TI one. Just my opinion though.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> the torr will also take a knock and wont lose its edge if dropped! (you shouldnt be dropping tampers anyway)


Yup, good point!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Happy to test side-by-side on a mythos One or EK43 new version / VA Black Eagle combo, if anyone want to send one ; )


Hi Gary Happy for you to borrow my TI Torr if you want to test them side by side.


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

I'll swap my Torr for a Perg if anyone is interested. Stopped using the Torr ages ago (can't get on with it)


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Received a Pergtamp today, ordered only yesterday morning, very much as an outcome of the Rave Rave. It is AMAZING! Over six or seven shots, the pucks have all been snooker-table flat, water-gauge level and with a flawless green baize surface.

OK, so I lied about the colour.

In a bottomless pf, the extraction spread over the VST basket (15 or 18g - they behave exactly the same) was the smoothest, most even I've ever seen. The whole surface just emerged at the same instant. Not a trace of spritz and no premature blonding either... good to the end. Delightful flavour too, from Rave Nicaraguan Finca el Bosque (I think I've got the name slightly wrong but I can't be bothered to go and check). Admittedly, I drink mainly lattes, so there's a milk-mask to the flavour, but I really am impressed by the difference in the cup.

Pergs may be expensive, but in my case at any rate, they sure are worth it! Can't see me ever using anything else.

Tony.









(Verona with 0.5mm gicleur, SJ, VSTs, Pergtamp, Attento click-mat, scales etc.)


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

while i've joined in lots of conversations before and certainly read a lot re tampers etc.

Questions:

How many WBC winners have worried about pergtamp vs torr?

How many used one?

I recently got a few tampers made made from china. stainless steel, wooden handle, perfect fit, cost... about £15 inc postage each. Would be a lot less if I ordered more.

I bet that no single person here could differentiate (blinded) between any coffee made with any of the tampers mentioned in this thread. To this end, if the tamper is a good fit, why bother paying these ridiculous prices....

While I appreciate the placebo effect of knowing your using your torr / pergtamp etc that cost you far too much helped you make a coffee...

Extraction yield may differ using a machine, but using your mouth? Game on.... (or not because I don't really care. I'm just amazed how many people are suckered into paying to much for a lump of metal)


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

What constitutes 'a good fit'? Perg and Torr are designed specifically to fit for VST baskets with no gap between the edge of the tamp and the basket's wall which requires precision machining not to mention choice of material for the tamp's base.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

bongo said:


> while i've joined in lots of conversations before and certainly read a lot re tampers etc.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> ...


The pergtamp, and the torr for that matter, is a luxury item that is designed to tweak out the last few 0.1%s out of an extraction and to improve consistency over a less accurate tamper. It also looks mighty fine.

Just because you don't want one or feel that you need one doesn't mean it's wrong to want or own one. You seem to feel pretty concerned for those that do which is nice but unnecessary.

WBC competitors generally use vst tampers which are also very expensive and manufactured within specific tolerances.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

bongo said:


> I bet that no single person here could differentiate (blinded) between any coffee made with any of the tampers mentioned in this thread.


CRIKEY , I'm sure a permanent state of vision impairment would render coffee a lower priority in life . Brave volunteers


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

It is an often debated issue about tampers, use which ever you want to, some fit better than others, some feel better than others, some suit different machines better than others, it is just a personal choice. My advice get one that fits properly whether that is £10 or £100 it won't matter provided it fits properly.

We must just be mad, but then some would say the same about owning a brewtus and a k10 !


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

http://www.fcpcoffee.com/blog/post/marginal-gains-living-with-the-pergtamp


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Bongo, to an extent, you are right. I have a word for it and it is coffeebollocks.......that is a line over which you cross. There will be a difference in shot with these 2 tampers in a VST, but, does the average person have the skill sets to get the max out? As Spence said, this is about squeezing the extra atom out of a shot, but, deep down at heart, do we all not think we are the next budding WBC champion in waiting?


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> My advice get one that fits properly whether that is £10 or £100 it won't matter provided it fits properly.


And that is good advice.

From experience the pergtamp (borrowed one) wasn't a good fit for my machine. I wasn't going to get a torr ti (cost). So had two made. 58.5 and 58.55. I felt the larger was the better fit. I use it every day and wouldn't change it.

If there is the market and interest, I'd forward the details to coffeechap / glenn to order a load to sell for the forum, but it does require the initial investment, which I considered myself but didn't have the interest to bather sorting out 200+ orders.

PM me if interested. If not no drama.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I had a tamper, blue anodised from Korea or somewhere. It looked the business and weighed in at over one kilo. Including postage it was about £20. the only trouble was it had no balance at all and tamping coffee would probably have had the same results if I had used a frozen shoulder of lamb


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Would be interest in trying a few of these out as I have been reliable informed that some of the correct fitting tampers (in the basket) coming from China, just feel wrong. What you should also consider is the balance and weight of a tamper, especially in the professional arena, it is amazing how much baristas suffer with RSI and a lot of this is down to tamper ergonomis and technique. Having a correctly engineered and thought out tamper makes a big difference in the user experience, it also helps with the end result as if it feels right in the hand and fits your hand as well as the basket, (often overlooked) your end results will improve.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I had a tamper, blue anodised from Korea or somewhere. It looked the business and weighed in at over one kilo. Including postage it was about £20. the only trouble was it had no balance at all and tamping coffee would probably have had the same results if I had used a frozen shoulder of lamb


Ahhhhh but what if Mr Perger gave the Lamb his endorsement and they etched "Perg-Lamb" on the side??


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Drewster said:


> Ahhhhh but what if Mr Perger gave the Lamb his endorsement and they etched "Perg-Lamb" on the side??[/quote
> 
> In my humble, it would ruin a perfectly good piece of meat


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Perg is designed to partner VST baskets. One area where it excels is that the top part of the flange levels with the rim of the portafilter. This makes is much easier to ensure the puck's surface is level, i.e. 90 degrees to the basket's wall.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

does the science of coffee, actually advance the quality of what is drunk?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> does the science of coffee, actually advance the quality of what is drunk?


Yes.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Yes.


For the divine few or for the masses.........and would the masses actually have the ability to taste the difference......and could the masses produce consistent shots to be able to recognise the difference?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The divine few might have very specific preferences (if they were truly divine surely they wouldn't have to try so hard, they'd get a leg up from a divinity?), but the general concept of good extraction was dictated by the masses (consumers, not baristas). If baristas can reproduce shots & train staff to reproduce shots, then there's no reason why anyone can't if they want to.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> For the divine few or for the masses.........and would the masses actually have the ability to taste the difference......and could the masses produce consistent shots to be able to recognise the difference?


Taste a 15% shot and then a 20%. If you cant taste the difference then throw away all your coffee equipment


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

bongo said:


> while i've joined in lots of conversations before and certainly read a lot re tampers etc.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> ...


Hi Bongo.

Many thanks for your post and the most valid arguments it sets out. It's what the forum is for... lively discussion based on fact, experience or just plain opinion. And we're all the richer for it, for "least said, littlest learned" (I don't know if that's a proverb - I just made it up).

Until I observed a Perg in action at the Rave Rave (wielded by the highly-skilled Callum) and then tried it myself, I would have agreed with you whole-heartedly! Bunkum... just a lump of metal, not so much extruded as extortionated! And of course, a bit lopped off a tree to hold it with, and trees are 'out there' for free, aren't they!

In fact, just four days earlier I'd pooh-poohed the idea of spending a hundred quid on a mere tamper, but felt the need for an oversized one to be a snug fit in a VST basket. So I bought a Joe Frex. Even with USA shipping it was only 40% of the price of a Perg. I used it for three days then went to the Rave and was bitten/smitten - call it what you will - by the Perg which, I immediately realised, had so much going for it that its price became secondary. After all, a 'one-off' cost is far less significant than an onging one, and as the old adage says "the quality is remembered long after the price has been forgotten". The Joe Frex sold on the forum within the hour by the way, to a member who will no doubt enhance his coffee experience to great satisfaction by using it.

Anyway, if I could have bought a functionally identical product to the Perg, with its unique shape features, for a cheaper price, I certainly would have done so. But I don't rue the (one-off) expense at all, as every time I use it, the quality and usability shines through and the price becomes but a fast diminishing irritation. And it's probably the last tamper I shall ever buy! Incidentally, why do you have so many? Is it a collectors' thing, or do they all have their own drawbacks in some way or other? At least with the Perg, I don't have to think "now, which one shall I go for today? ...eeny meeny miny..."

And of course, I firmly believe I'm making better coffee as a result of using it. I can 'see it' in the evenness of extraction, can't I... the holy grail next down from the flavour!

Apart from the extortionate price, the Perg's a bit like a bargain... something we don't need and can't afford, at a price we can't resist! Substitute quality, usability and sheer 'wow' factor for price, and there you have it. And we all like bargains, don't we!

To each their own.

Anyone in the market for a couple of second-hand 58mm Mottas?

Tony.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Taste a 15% shot and then a 20%. If you cant taste the difference then throw away all your coffee equipment


But that is basically what I do. I produce coffee and it is either drink it or sink it. I sink less than 2% of shots


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

When you drink it, do you have levels of enjoyment - i.e. this one is alright, this one is amazing?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> But that is basically what I do. I produce coffee and it is either drink it or sink it. I sink less than 2% of shots


With darker roasts, shots below 19-20% can be pleasant enough to stay out of the sink...you might not ever get into that range and still have shots you enjoy, but without knowing whether you are getting into the higher range it's hard to make a comparison. No one is saying sub 19% shots are all sink shots, just that there may be better to come if you aren't getting in that range?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> With darker roasts, shots below 19-20% can be pleasant enough to stay out of the sink...you might not ever get into that range and still have shots you enjoy, but without knowing whether you are getting into the higher range it's hard to make a comparison. No one is saying sub 19% shots are all sink shots, just that there may be better to come if you aren't getting in that range?


I need to get my next thread up for this don't i.....


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> does the science of coffee, actually advance the quality of what is drunk?


"Quality" is ultimately perception...

However if improvements that combat or overcome problems to the way coffee is grown and processed, we can argue that the quality of the coffee improves.

Likewise if a coffee roaster optimises a given roast profile to best bring out what they perceive is a better roast than the last they did, then we could say that too is an improvement.

Also if there are grinders out that can produce more even ground coffee particles we could argue that it is an improvement in the quality of the particle distribution.

In regards to advancing the 'science of coffee' the same goes for other equipment and barista skills...

If you aren't trying to achieve anything furthermore then there is no conscious need to 'advance', you are ultimately at a standpoint and if you are satisfied - then that is Nirvana, why go elsewhere?

The same goes for experiences, some people like to stick to what they know purely to avoid potential disappointment and others may be more inquisitive and explorative,

while some people can taste differences in coffee drinks, some genuinely can't - that seems to boil down to a level of sensory perception/development and or how the drink is concocted.

Developments always set off trends and whether the named tampers of this thread can make my coffee taste better is a tough call,

just like the FCP study - perhaps not on the equipment used as they and I myself may well have reached the pinnacle of what is possible with our kit. - There was no mention of using a nutation tamp which the tampers in question were designed to do well.

Nutating on a flat 58mm or a 58.35mm tamper leaves grinds up the wall of the basket, the Perg and Torr Ti don't.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If Lewis Hamilton announces that he has had a new type of valve fitted that might give him a 0.0003 advantage per lap, is there much point me fitting it to my VW. What is advancement for one, need not be for the othet


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

We are in the downward spiral of debate again aren't we .........


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

True.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Beanosaurus said:


> "Quality" is ultimately perception...


Straight out of 'Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Mechanics'.


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> If Lewis Hamilton announces that he has had a new type of valve fitted that might give him a 0.0003 advantage per lap, is there much point me fitting it to my VW.


What VW is it?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

It is not downward boots. It is impossible to argue against logic but can logic be applied to all? Is there much point in a cheap espresso machine owner with pressurised baskets owning a Pergtamp? Logic says his shot must be better, but is there any point?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Beanosaurus said:


> What VW is it?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> It is not downward boots. It is impossible to argue against logic but can logic be applied to all? Is there much point in a cheap espresso machine owner with pressurised baskets owning a Pergtamp? Logic says his shot must be better, but is there any point?


Id rather be in the upward spiral of happiness.......


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> If Lewis Hamilton announces that he has had a new type of valve fitted that might give him a 0.0003 advantage per lap, is there much point me fitting it to my VW. What is advancement for one, need not be for the othet


Three, ten thousandths improvement? Extracting 19.5% of your dose, over 15% of your dose is a third more coffee in your water, 3 laps to every 2 of Hamilton's old laps...people would notice Hamilton lapping the entire field every 3 laps :-o


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

I'll have the one that tamps level.......


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Sk8-bizarre said:


> I'll have the one that tamps level.......


Bet you still get it un-level


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Yep! three times last night hahahaha I'm rubbish


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

It will come!


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

It did......and was mostly, I've lost it and keep rummaging round the bottom of my bag of tricks but can't find it......It'll turn up at some point.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I picked up a new torr from CC on the rave day Sunday, 58.something, but a very nice flat top with great lines, for me its making the tamp easier to get right over the other torr which has a curved edge.

Maybe you should pick one up?


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Sk8-bizarre said:


> Yep! three times last night hahahaha I'm rubbish


I wouldn't say 3 times is rubbish.


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

I made only three coffees lol so that's 100% haha and I have a lovely 58.4 Torr that I got off the Chap a while back the man's a Torr tamp legend.

I've been livid the last few days today it's just hilarious and I am over my madness but have decided that aliens abducted me a few nights back and replaced my right arm with someone else's.....They even graphed the tattoos over to try and disguise the change sneaky gits but it ain't mine it's rubbish, I know!!


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Beanosaurus said:


> "Quality" is ultimately perception...
> 
> However if improvements that combat or overcome problems to the way coffee is grown and processed, we can argue that the quality of the coffee improves.
> 
> ...


Mat (FCP) doesn't nutate, neither do his staff, unless they've changed tamping style recently.

I doubt that there's any difference in extraction from using the pergtamp that's detectable from a sensory perspective, to be honest. It sort of reminds me of when I bought my father a £300 putter and the first time he used it he had a great round, particularly on the greens. He was eulogising about how the putter had transformed his game, until we pointed out that we'd swapped it for a cheapo putter from the same brand at the start of the game. Don't underestimatethe power of the mind!

Perger was in town recently, funnily enough. Some interesting stories that I can't repeat is all I'll say.

JP


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> I wouldn't say 3 times is rubbish.


You are a bad man!!



Sk8-bizarre said:


> I made only three coffees lol so that's 100% haha and I have a lovely 58.4 Torr that I got off the Chap a while back the man's a Torr tamp legend.
> 
> I've been livid the last few days today it's just hilarious and I am over my madness but have decided that aliens abducted me a few nights back and replaced my right arm with someone else's.....They even graphed the tattoos over to try and disguise the change sneaky gits but it ain't mine it's rubbish, I know!!


Whooooosh!!!!!

SK8


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

jjprestidge said:


> Perger was in town recently, funnily enough. Some interesting stories that I can't repeat is all I'll say.
> 
> JP


Go on - be indiscrete.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Go on - be indiscrete.


I'm interested too. Ditch the Perg dirt.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Nothing coffee related. That's all I'll say!

JP


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Even more intriguing.


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

jjprestidge said:


> Nothing coffee related. That's all I'll say!
> 
> JP


I suspect it could involve inebriation/nudity/hot springs in some permutation.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Shouldn't that be nutation?


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Shouldn't that be nutation?


Sorry that's what I meant, a mate of mine got chucked out of a Newcastle nightclub for doing it on the dance floor.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Pergert!!!


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Beanosaurus said:


> "Quality" is ultimately perception...
> 
> There was no mention of using a nutation tamp which the tampers in question were designed to do well.
> 
> Nutating on a flat 58mm or a 58.35mm tamper leaves grinds up the wall of the basket, the Perg and Torr Ti don't.


I nutate gently with the Perg before the full pressure tamp, having watched Callum do exactly that at the Rave. And you're dead right... not a trace of anything on the basket wall. Just like a Doctor blade in Photogravure printing.

Conna bay clane wo' ('Can't beat a clean wall' - South Derbyshire)

Tony.


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## Krax (Oct 26, 2014)

bongo said:


> while i've joined in lots of conversations before and certainly read a lot re tampers etc.
> 
> I recently got a few tampers made made from china. stainless steel, wooden handle, perfect fit, cost... about £15 inc postage each. Would be a lot less if I ordered more.
> 
> Can you please post a link. I would consider taking a punt and buying a few to pass on if they seemed a good buy


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Got to see both these at the forum day, I would be happy with either , nearly got a Ti off Coffeechap but after having a relativily dear weekend I thought best not .


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Thecatlinux said:


> Got to see both these at the forum day, I would be happy with either , nearly got a Ti off Coffeechap but after having a relativily dear weekend I thought best not .


One day, one day!


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Each time I see the line of grinds around the edge is another day closer .


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I go back to the 58.4 once in a while just to compare. Similar to the cat, that line of grinds around the edge of the basket quickly sends me back to the 55


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Weirdly enough one of my VST baskets gives a slight line of grinds with a 58.4 while the other is a perfect.


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