# Rocket Giotto or Ponte Vecchio Lusso?



## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

To be fair this isn't my question but the question that this week's Cycling Weekly in effect poses.

Simon Schofield starts his piece (as part of a feature on 'The ultimate winter wishlist') with:

'It's UCI legal. It makes you faster. It tastes great. What exactly is not to like about coffee? Well, bad coffee for a start. The best way of excising bad coffee from your pre-ride routine is to get a top dollar coffee machine and pick up a few barista skills. These machines are expensive, but they are durable, they are beautiful and combined with a quality grinder, they make unbeatable coffee.'

If you have 'cash to burn', he recommends the Rocket Giotto '...as about as desirable a coffee machine as it's possible to conceive'. He suggests around £1500.

If you are 'feeling flush', he recommends a lever and starts by saying, 'Coffee nerds love these machines...Coffee snobs (worse than wine snobs) maintain that the manual action provides a less harsh environment for the brewing process and the resulting espresso is softer, gentler and creamier. Our pet coffee snob favours the Ponte Vecchio Lusso...." He suggests around £750.

Certainly Rocket machines generally feature as the go to machine for cyclists but what do you think about his recommendations and although it deserves its own thread, are coffee snobs (personally I have yet to meet one) worse than wine snobs (personally I have met plenty)?


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Phil104 said:


> ...... although it deserves its own thread, are coffee snobs (personally I have yet to meet one) worse than wine snobs (personally I have met plenty)?


It does - but as we are here ;-)

I think they can be as bad as each other!

Wine snob can be guilty of telling you what *you* should like...

and Coffee snobs can be the same.... You shouldn't add sugar etc etc

(regular readers may spot that being told how *I* should drink my coffee is a bug-bear of mine ;-) )


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

YOU shouldn't add sugar tho...


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Mrboots2u said:


> YOU shouldn't add sugar tho...


He's right, you shouldn't...


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

I had the Ponte Vecchio Export, and the one thing I didn't pick up from all my googling before I bought is that the shot volume is small. You need to know that you like a shorter shot. Two pulls on the lever never did it for me. To be honest, the shot volume was too small for me, no matter how tasty, and I'm happier now with a slightly larger volume.

I've never owned a pump machine, but I'm guessing you can have as short or long a shot as you like.

Anyone can be a snob about anything. I'm into cameras and hifi too, but there seems to be a bit less willy-waving amongst coffee fans.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> YOU shouldn't add sugar tho...





MrShades said:


> He's right, you shouldn't...


Grrrrrr where is the "dislike" button :-(

<snigger> I know you are kidding..... but just watch out!!!!</snigger>


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

No but really you shouldn't add sugar


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Drewster said:


> Grrrrrr where is the "dislike" button :-(
> 
> <snigger> I know you are kidding..... but just watch out!!!!</snigger>


Am I though

Am I..........


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Kidding....???? Sugar is a deadly serious issue these days you know, literally!

As the old expression goes "Just say no!"


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

If you like the taste of coffee why would you want to add sugar, unless of course you prefer coffee syrup.

Ian


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Sugar?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I used to always add sugar to coffee.

Now that I make it properly it's no longer bitter so I no longer add sugar.

I'm in the "you shouldn't add sugar" camp. But I understand that some people have a really sweet tooth so it's up to them....but get checked for diabetes if you are...


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I think it's a bit like cooking a perfectly seasoned meal and the adding salt to it at the table.


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## Yes Row (Jan 23, 2013)

Sugar? In coffee! Surely not?


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

In a similar vein I find it odd people adding salt to food before they try it.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Th seasoning thing is contentious....but i completELY agree with you


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

@Phil104

*I rest my case. All the proof you could ever need within an hour!!*

Apparently some people know better than me what I like... and more than that they think they have some sort of mandate to tell me what I *should* like!

@The Snobs

Seriously - I like what I like - nothing whatsoever to do with you.

If we ever met and you were kind enough to make me a coffee (that you would hope/expect to be sweet enough without sugar)

I would definitely try it without sugar... and I expect I would enjoy it without sugar.

I don't actually have sugar in coffee often at all but wether I do or not is my choice..... not dictated by "taste nazis".


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Drewster - don't tell me you have sugar in your coffee?


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Daren said:


> Drewster - don't tell me you have sugar in your coffee?


<steam from ears>*NO!!** I don't often have sugar in my coffee!!!................*</steam>



*
**;-)*


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Taste Nazi lol.....


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Taste Nazi lol.....


You can just.................. Live long and prosper!


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Drewster said:


> *NO!!** I don't often have sugar in my coffee!!!................*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Don't often, but you still do!

Moderators, can we ban him please - this is a forum for coffee lovers, not philistines

BURN HIM - HE'S A WITCH


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Daren said:


> Don't often, but you still do!
> 
> Moderators, can we ban him please - this is a forum for coffee lovers, not philistines
> 
> ...


WITCH!!! WITCH!!!!

I am a Warlock!!!!


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Drewster said:


> I am a Warlock!!!!


The one on the left?


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Daren said:


> The one on the left?


Well at least you didn't say Doro!

Showing your age a bit though!


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Do you mean extra sugar ? Or no sugar ?

what about if you were making a coffee for the buisness man Lord tottenham


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Okay, I didn't intend to start a thread about the pros and mainly cons of sugar. On that subject, though, when the man came to fix our freezer and I made him an espresso I didn't take it too badly when he said it was a 'bit on the strong side' for him and would it be okay if I added milk and sugar. (It did take me awhile to find the sugar.) He isn't a cyclist, and doesn't own a rocket or a lever and didn't know about the concept of either a coffee or a wine snob but could imagine what they are.


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

I wouldn't of let him in the house.

No bike, No Rocket = No entry!


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Daren said:


> I wouldn't of let him in the house.
> 
> No bike, No Rocket = No entry!


 Just back from a great sunshine, mild October ride around the Hampshire Surrey border. It gave me plenty of time to reflect on my post above and along with your astonished reply, Daren, I can see that I have truly got it wrong. I'm sorry. I'm going to have to be far more challenging of people who come into the house to do things or better still, do what I can to ensure that only people who meet stringent criteria (bike+rocket [or lever or some equivalent serious minded kit]-sugar+espresso or brewed +/-milk [depending on my mood] + not a coffee snob) turn up in the first place. Whether they are any cop at fixing what they have come to fix, I can see now, is of secondary value. My priorities have been seriously wrong.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

It is perfectly reasonable, rational, sane and indeed acceptable that you apply some form of rating system/methodology to help you decide on which tradesmen to use. This will obviously take various factors into account and it would probably be best to apply some form of weighting to the various factors.

If we assume a rating/score of 50 be required to allow a tradesman to be taken on we could apply a system as follows:

Owns a Rocket +30

Owns a Gaggia +15

Owns a Sage + 10

Owns an L1 +30

etc

Owns an EK -30

Owns a Mazzer + 30

Owns a Rocky + 15

etc

Owns a Dawes + 20

Owns a Merckx + 30

etc

Has good practical skills + 5

Good references +5

Reliable +5

etc

From this it should be possible to always ensure we get the "right" tradesman!

NB: It would obviously be wrong to include any reference to sugar in this methodology.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Owns an ek -30 funny...


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Drewster said:


> It is perfectly reasonable, rational, sane and indeed acceptable that you apply some form of rating system/methodology to help you decide on which tradesmen to use. This will obviously take various factors into account and it would probably be best to apply some form of weighting to the various factors.
> 
> If we assume a rating/score of 50 be required to allow a tradesman to be taken on we could apply a system as follows:
> 
> ...


I think this is a great start and Mrboots' comment suggests, by implication, that once a rating system has been established with a number of universally agreed (i.e., on the forum, of course) criteria then each is capable of producing a score that might range from, say -30 to +30 depending upon one's own particular biases. After all, ultimately, it's my house, say, that the tradesman is coming to, so it matters most to me what bike etc. they own or don't. One of the aspects that I like about your suggested scoring system is that it doesn't give undue weight to such things as reliability, references, practical skills - clearly they are less important than the true worth of someone's character as measured by the other criteria. I can see that I need to take tomorrow off work to contribute to another draft of the rating system - it doesn't seem right to let you and others do all the work (although it's very welcome and is another great example of how forum members rally round).


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Interesting concept on the ratings system for tradesmen.

Before offering a tradesman a coffee I tend to offer them tea first to test the water.

If they come back with a request that involves multiple sugars, multiple bags or a request that involves the spoon standing up on its own then I figure I'm on a hiding to hell and don't bother.

The record in my house so far was 5 sugars with 2 bags for a plasterer. I think he actually took 6 but felt embarrassed to ask.


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## tAClue (Jul 6, 2017)

Is Turkish coffee supposed to be made with sugar?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

tAClue said:


> Is Turkish coffee supposed to be made with sugar?


Is espresso? Had really sweet Turkish coffee with no sugar. Will be down to personal preference, beans and brew techniques


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