# Recommended espresso machines as an upgrade to the Gaggia Classic



## darrenhaken (May 26, 2015)

I've been researching espresso machines that would be an upgrade to my Gaggia Classic.

What is generally considered the next step up when it comes to espresso? I've had a look at the Sage Dual Boiler, any thoughts to that?


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## FlatWhitey (Apr 15, 2020)

Is it a stock Gaggia Classic or has it been modified/enhanced yet?


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## darrenhaken (May 26, 2015)

It's had the wand replaced but nothing else, why? I think it's the 2015 model


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## FlatWhitey (Apr 15, 2020)

darrenhaken said:


> It's had the wand replaced but nothing else, why? I think it's the 2015 model


 There are useful modifications you can do to older Classics (change the OPV, add a PID etc.) hence checking to see at what 'level' of Classic you were at as it may guide the responses better. That being said, being a 2015 model I don't know what you are able to do as most of the mods seem to be for pre-2015 variants due to the internals being changed? Hopefully someone better informed can assist.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Do you have a budget in mind?

What is your current grinder?

Would you like to buy new or used?

Do you specifically want a dual boiler or would you consider HX machines?


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## darrenhaken (May 26, 2015)

I'd say about 500-600 as a budget. But I'm still trying to work out if I gain enough with the upgrade or not, I'd certainly like input!

Id seen the Sage for about £550.

I don't know much about HK machines but let's assume i would consider them. What are they?


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

A heat exchange machine has one large boiler that is at the temperature for steam. This is over normal water boiling temperature as it is under pressure. A pipe passes through this boiler that serves water to the brew group when you make a coffee. As it passes through the superheated steam boiler it is heated very quickly to the correct brewing temperature. It is sort of like a boiler within a boiler, the two lots of water never mix.

These machines are less expensive than dual boilers. They do not offer quite the same level of temperature stability and control however. Most commercial espresso machines in cafes are heat exchange machines.

It is really for you to decide if you gain enough. The advantages are you can brew and steam at the same time, you can often draw hot water from the boiler for drinks, you can also make a lot more drinks in a short space of time as there is a lot greater mass of water. If say you are an espresso only drinker then the advantages might not be that great and you may be better adding a PID to your classic so you can have more stable brewing temps and the ability to adjust temperature.

I asked about grinder as you will need to think about this too. Depending on what you have now it may be suitable to keep with an HX machine, you may wish to upgrade that too or as we said if you are an espresso drinker you may decide to pop a PID on the Classic and give your grinder an upgrade. You often get more bang for your buck in terms of cup quality with a new grinder.


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## darrenhaken (May 26, 2015)

Thanks @BlackCatCoffee that's a really helpful answer

Re grinder, I am actually looking to upgrade that to a Eureka Mignon Specialita or a Niche Zero.

You actually recommended the Eureka in another thread! I currently have the Sage Pro and I use it for V60 and espresso.

If I was go to for a HX machine, are there any you'd recommend?

Re fitting a PID on the Gaggia, do you know how easy that is to?


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## ronan08 (Dec 21, 2019)

Might be a slight stretch to your budget but a nouva simonelli oscar


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

As far as the PID goes I think it is pretty easy if you have some basic skills. There is a member called MrShades that sells the kit on here for around 100 or so. It is a good way to go.

I do recommend the Mignon, I also sell them myself so I should declare that but still it doesn't take much reading around on here to see they are superbly well regarded. I can do them for 355 delivered next working day.

Recommended HX machines, there are lots. You will be looking at used ones for that budget. Nuova Simonelli, Fracino, Rocket, Lelit are a good start. Check out the For Sale section on here, there is a NS Oscar listed at the moment I believe.

Oh and Sage, not for me personally but lots of members like them.


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

darrenhaken said:


> Id seen the Sage for about £550.
> 
> I don't know much about HK machines but let's assume i would consider them. What are they?


 As a long time Sage owner, I do think that the Dual Boiler is the only Sage machine I would consider as an "upgrade" and even then only probably marginally (once the Gaggia is modded) - there are probably more knowledgeable people on this forum about other makes that would be considered a big step up... I would probably do the PID upgrade and the OPV upgrade to the Gaggia first before moving on unless you need good steam capabilities..

MrShades (also on this forum) sells the various upgrades to the Gaggia... I'd personally get the one that allows for pre-infusion too.

I only know all this as I was seriously considering getting a Classic and modding it all myself (I'm a long time electronics hobbyist) before I finally went for the Dual Boiler.


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## ronan08 (Dec 21, 2019)

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51045-for-sale-nuova-simonelli-oscar-%C2%A3475/?do=embed

Heres the add


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## darrenhaken (May 26, 2015)

I think modifying the Gaggia may be beyond me skillset 😔


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## darrenhaken (May 26, 2015)

ronan08 said:


> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51045-for-sale-nuova-simonelli-oscar-%C2%A3475/?do=embed
> 
> Heres the add


 Thanks for sharing this I'll take a look!


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## bowerfield (Apr 14, 2020)

I've just joined this forum, I'm in the same situation as you. Had a Gaggia Classic and MDF Grinder for about a decade at this point. I was strongly considering going for the Sage Oracle, but after doing a bit of research decided it would be better getting a Mignon and doing all of the upgrade mods to the Classic instead. Ordered a PID kit from MrShades, along with a Brass group head, IMS shower screen and basket and silicone seals from TheEspressoShop. About £170 in total, excited for it all to turn up and see how much difference it makes!


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

bowerfield said:


> I've just joined this forum, I'm in the same situation as you. Had a Gaggia Classic and MDF Grinder for about a decade at this point. I was strongly considering going for the Sage Oracle, but after doing a bit of research decided it would be better getting a Mignon and doing all of the upgrade mods to the Classic instead. Ordered a PID kit from MrShades, along with a Brass group head, IMS shower screen and basket and silicone seals from TheEspressoShop. About £170 in total, excited for it all to turn up and see how much difference it makes!


 Good choice with the PID. If you are yet to order your grinder, check us out.


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## Skizz (Feb 10, 2020)

bowerfield said:


> I've just joined this forum, I'm in the same situation as you. Had a Gaggia Classic and MDF Grinder for about a decade at this point. I was strongly considering going for the Sage Oracle, but after doing a bit of research decided it would be better getting a Mignon and doing all of the upgrade mods to the Classic instead. Ordered a PID kit from MrShades, along with a Brass group head, IMS shower screen and basket and silicone seals from TheEspressoShop. About £170 in total, excited for it all to turn up and see how much difference it makes!


 You'll notice the biggest difference from the PID. The brass dispersion block and IMS screen are of arguable benefit, but the brass block does help a bit with temp stability even if it slows the machine's warm-up time. I ended up modifying my brass block to try and smooth the flow, which was reasonably successful.



darrenhaken said:


> I think modifying the Gaggia may be beyond me skillset 😔


 The PID installation is involved but by no means difficult and Mr Shades installation guide is brilliant. Take your time and, read the manual a couple of times before starting and contact Mr. Shades if you get stuck. He's pretty hot on getting back to you asap. The only other 'mod' that's essential isn't really a mod: OPV adjustment. This takes five minutes to do if you haven't already.

EDIT: Sorry, re-read your earlier posts and noticed yours is a 2015 Classic. Not sure the PID option is available to you in that case.


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## darrenhaken (May 26, 2015)

@Skizz do you have any links to the Mr Shades?


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## Skizz (Feb 10, 2020)

Here you go: Mr Shades PID 

EDIT: not sure there's an easy PID option available for your 2015 machine. Seem to be a few people who've done it but it takes bit more tinkering and you'd have to figure it out without the benefit of a well written guide.


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## darrenhaken (May 26, 2015)

Can anyone in thread comment on whether the Sage the Duo Temp Pro is any good compared to the Gaggia?

I noticed it has a PID built in which might be encouraging.

It seems incredibly cheap at John Lewis right now https://www.johnlewis.com/sage-the-duo-temp-pro-espresso-coffee-machine/p1749201


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

darrenhaken said:


> Can anyone in thread comment on whether the Sage the Duo Temp Pro is any good compared to the Gaggia?
> 
> I noticed it has a PID built in which might be encouraging.
> 
> It seems incredibly cheap at John Lewis right now https://www.johnlewis.com/sage-the-duo-temp-pro-espresso-coffee-machine/p1749201


 Some would say it is a sideways move.....others a downward one.

As far as I am aware this machine does not have a PID.


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## darrenhaken (May 26, 2015)

@BlackCatCoffee it does have a PID but you can't control at what temperature it operates at.

I suspected it was a sideways move rather than an upgrade, that really helps.


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## Skizz (Feb 10, 2020)

Apologies; just spotted that yours is a 2015 Classic so not sure there's a 'by the numbers' PID option available. More likely you'd have to read around a bit and put the bits together yourself.

From my own reading on Sage/Breville, the common theme seems to be one of machines that work really well out of the box but that have some significant longer (or even medium) term reliability issues, compounded by difficulty in getting parts or service centres able/willing to work on them.

The NS Oscar you're looking at could be a good option, or for less money look for a pre-2015 Classic and fit a PID kit to that.


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

darrenhaken said:


> @BlackCatCoffee it does have a PID but you can't control at what temperature it operates at.
> 
> I suspected it was a sideways move rather than an upgrade, that really helps.


 Not sure I'd want to go from a 58mm basket to a 54mm basket necessarily at this stage of your coffee journey... certainly some people actively choose the taste profile of smaller baskets but that's usually as they personally prefer something about that... I think I would stick with 58mm basket size machines for your next purchase if possible - better (VST?) baskets, distributors, dosing cups, naked portafilters also all much easier to source.

If you like the look of the Sage machines, your original suggestion of the Dual Boiler is probably a better one especially if you aren't inclined to do mods yourself - the DB has most of the mods you would do built in already (temp control, OPV, pre-infusion) and the PID is adjustable unlike the Duo Temp.

And the one mod to the Dual Boiler that is really worth doing (slayer Mod) is really easy as opposed to the (by the sounds of things) quite difficult mods you might have to do to your 2015 Classic.


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## Gubbo89 (Dec 5, 2018)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> As far as the PID goes I think it is pretty easy if you have some basic skills. There is a member called MrShades that sells the kit on here for around 100 or so. It is a good way to go.
> 
> I do recommend the Mignon, I also sell them myself so I should declare that but still it doesn't take much reading around on here to see they are superbly well regarded. I can do them for 355 delivered next working day.
> 
> ...


 Sorry for reviving thread but am in the same boat.

Was thinking about upgrading the Classic (with PID, baskets etc) but have been told I can have an early birthday/xmas present instead.

So are these the machines you would consider:

- Nuova Simonelli Oscar 2

- Francino Cherub

- Rocket Apartamento

- Lelit MaraX

And the ACS mínima is similar price too but dual boiler, worth considering this?

Woukd be making about 12 drinks a week, 80/20 in favour of non-milk based.


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## mikemichael (May 5, 2020)

I too have a (italian) classic Gaggia with MDF grinder, had it 10 years and couldn't want a better coffee, however being bored during lockdown thought i'd get something a bit more up to date, bought a Sage Barista £450, took it all out and checked it all over, read all the stuff it does then got up next day and sent it back!!!!

Cleaned up my 'baby' and i'm happy again. Far too many knobs and switches on the Sage, looks good though.

Mike


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

Sage Barista is definitely not an upgrade to a well set up Gaggia (unless perhaps milk speed)... thought about upgrading the grinder for the same money? You'll probably get much better results - don't know the MDF grinder at all but from what I've seen on this forum it seems like an entry level grinder? Think the Niche or Eureka might get you better results.

As for machines as an upgrade to the Gaggia, ACS Minima or Lelit Mara X for sure, just for PID, E61 group head etc etc... Again, as many, if not more opinions than types of coffee but I don't think you'd go too far wrong with any of those @Rob1 has a few things to say about some of the others you mention.


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## mikemichael (May 5, 2020)

Hi

I never use the milk steamer, don't like a load of froth in my coffee, just pump in half a mug of strong coffee, top it up with milk from fridge then 40 seconds in Microwave, great coffee with a nice 'creamer' on top.

Main fault with this machine is the solinoid stem getting a tiny bit of dirt inside, resulting in no water coming out, however i can do this blindfolded now after 10 years, usually happens twice a year or so, but the machine is so easy to work on and very well made.

mike


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## diedrick033 (May 14, 2020)

Along the same lines as @Kannan, I think the next "step" up would likely be an HX machine or a lower end DB. If you don't care about milk drinks, then a lot of the benefits you'll get will be similar to what you could achieve with some mods on your Classic (temp stability and preinfusion with PID, standard 9 bar pressure with OPV modification). That said, the most important benefit you'd get from an upgrade or mods is more consistency in your shots. The Classic is perfectly capable of pulling good shots but you have little control over several important variables so there's a lot of variation across shots.


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