# Sage BES920UK or Expobar Brewtus or something else?



## Jon12345

[Edit: Deleted as mods told me not to talk about the S___ anymore]


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## Spazbarista

The Sage is an unknown quantity, the Expobar isn't. If you were looking to buy in 5 years time you'd have some data on which to base your decision, but as it stands its anyone's guess as to whether the Sage has anything of a lifespan.

Even if the Sage can match the shot quality and repeatability of the Expobar, which we wont know until somebody who knows what they are talking about like garydyke gets his hands on it, what else can it offer that is worth the risk? The electronic gizmos are of little value IMO.

Its your money, but were it me I wouldn't be punting £1200 on something with no pedigree. Its a lot of money.


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## coffeechap

Just to add the expo can be had in rotary format for around that price, the vibe version is £150 cheaper than the company formally known as breville


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## jeebsy

With the Expo you can leave just the brew boiler on so if you only drink espresso you can kill the steam boiler.


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## Mrboots2u

Am I having déjà vu.......ground hog day .........


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## coffeechap

I know how many more threads can we create, perhaps I can set up another ten tonight just to completely swamp the forum with sage threads.......


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## Mrboots2u

I really think there would be value in utilising this apparently free machine Charlie has, if we can, get it a an impartial , trusted source like Gary, benchmarked against the brewtus . then it could be a sticky review with glens. Mrs sage if your out there , can we send it to Gary .ill pay for the bloomin carriage myself with the money I got from the londinium tamper sale .


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## jeebsy

This is the battle everyone wants to see, the new kid on the block with all his trendy features and newfangled parts against the old traditionalist built on tried and tested methodologies. A bit like Ivan Drago v Rocky - all Soviet computers and steroids against chopping down trees and running in the snow. We need to make this happen.


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## Jon12345

[Edit: Deleted as mods don't like me talking about the S___]


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## MWJB

Jon1-5 - Quietness & consistency seem to be speculative...and you will be the biggest factor regarding the latter.

So, you're basically left with the choice between the timer/fast warm up vs. a nicer looking machine (in your words)...doesn't look like a difficult choice?

Boots - Yes, if just one person....just one, could give an impartial, fair review...somebody, anybody...apart from Glenn, or CharlieJ, or anyone else who doesn't condemn it straight off the bat, eh? ;-)

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who do not believe, no proof is possible".

If only there were more than 2 espresso machine manufacturers....


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## garydyke1

Im still waiting


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## Jon12345

[Edit: Deleted as mods don't like me talking about the S___]


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## coffeechap

Jon12345 said:


> Yes, I too would love to see this comparison. The Sage is getting feathers ruffled with all its whizbang technology and changing the whole paradigm. All those features for such a low price...If reliability is ok, then wow. But, what does a side-by-side comparison reveal.
> 
> What is the next best machine up from the Brewtus and why? I am assuming it costs a little more, of course.


Why on earth is £1200 a low price? Another new member extolling the apparent virtues of the machine from the company formally known as breville, surprise surprise


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## jeebsy

£1200 is a serious bit of wedge to be dropping on a coffee machine.


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## Walter Sobchak

Jon12345 said:


> Some machines I've seen on YouTube seem to be almost silent. Are they rotary ones or something? Not sure that quietness is speculative. But consistency...can you determine that by specs?
> 
> The thing is, its a real pain to wait ages for the machine to warm up. What is the cost per hour for the Brewtus, anyone know? It matters you know!


Mumsnet is where you'd be better off doing your promotional bollocks dude!


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## coffeechap

MWJB said:


> If only there were more than 2 espresso machine manufacturers....


You mean there are more than two?


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## Mrboots2u

MWJB said:


> Jon1-5 - Quietness & consistency seem to be speculative...and you will be the biggest factor regarding the latter.
> 
> So, you're basically left with the choice between the timer/fast warm up vs. a nicer looking machine (in your words)...doesn't look like a difficult choice?
> 
> Boots - Yes, if just one person....just one, could give an impartial, fair review...somebody, anybody...apart from Glenn, or CharlieJ, or anyone else who doesn't condemn it straight off the bat, eh? ;-)
> 
> "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who do not believe, no proof is possible".
> 
> If only there were more than 2 espresso machine manufacturers....


Even though Gary has a brewtus, and loves it , I'd trust him to give an impartial view sage versus brewtus .

Personally I don't care, what the outcome is . I'm never going to buy one , I don't care if anyone does buy one, or wants to buy one .

I just want us to have a couple of views so we can talk about something, anything else , on the forum for at least one day, without the same my dad is bigger than your dad conversations

My offer of paying the carriage is genuine ....









And my dad is bigger







and my bike is faster


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## MWJB

coffeechap said:


> You mean there are more than two?


Apparently not, reading this forum. ;-)

It's descending into Westminster politics, reds vs blues...pick a side & get shouting...

Jon1-5 - Bella Barista have both, anyone here will have tried one or the other, unless you can hang on to see if Gary gets to swing the axe.


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## jeebsy

Are Rocket and Expobar in a coalition v Londinium?


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## Neill

MWJB said:


> Apparently not, reading this forum. ;-)
> 
> It's descending into Westminster politics, reds vs blues...pick a side & get shouting...
> 
> Jon1-5 - Bella Barista have both, anyone here will have tried one or the other, unless you can hang on to see if Gary gets to swing the axe.


Can someone not just pay a visit to Bella barista and try both? Maybe wouldn't give the time to try it out for long enough but like many others I think a comparison should be made and then move on!


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## Saftlad

Given my inexperience, I couldn't justify the cost of any of the machines being discussed.

The level of vitriol towards the Sage does make me laugh though. If you don't like it, then move on, there's no need to repeat a stance. I can't stand Strictly Come Dancing, but I don't force my opinion on others every time it gets a mention.


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## Jon12345

By lower price, its relative isn't it. You might buy a house for a low price but its still £100K! Low price relative to feature set. Do I have to spell it out??


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## Mrboots2u

More importantly does anyone have a faster bike than me ......


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## Daren

jeebsy said:


> Are Rocket and Expobar in a coalition v Londinium?


No... The Rocket rules


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## Jon12345

I like the look of the Rockets. But are they just all glam and produce inferior coffee to the Brewtus or Sage?


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## Daren

Mrboots2u said:


> More importantly does anyone have a faster bike than me ......


It's not how fast the bike is.... It's how fast the rider is.

I AM FASTER THAN YOU


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## coffeechap

But strictly come dangling isn't rammed down everyone's throat all of the time, perhaps I should not look at most recent posts and focus on stuff I enjoy like grinders as I couldn't give two hoots either whether the expo, rocket, quickmill, ECM or duetto is the best as they are all hiring pulp machines....


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## coffeechap

Daren said:


> It's not how fast the bike is.... It's how fast the rider is.
> 
> I AM FASTER THAN YOU


I think there is an s in there that is not needed


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## Neill

Daren said:


> It's not how fast the bike is.... It's how fast the rider is.
> 
> I AM FASTER THAN YOU


It's obviously nothing to do with how fast it is, it's how shiny you can make it. I've a card stuck in my spokes so it makes it sound fast


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## Daren

Jon12345 said:


> I like the look of the Rockets. But are they just all glam and produce inferior coffee to the Brewtus or Sage?


Ooo... Let's step outside


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## 4515

Am I just being a grumpy sod due to lack of caffeine today ?

Sage are doing loads of promotion, are in JL, this forum is high in the search rankings for that green herb so there will be increased interest in said machine on here - I get that

But ......

Most on their search for coffee greatness post an opening thread saying that they want to get into coffee / want to upgrade their Gaggia and ask what their available options are. They will then get loads of sensible advice on what to go for. There may be a requirement for a small machine / a machine to match the kitchen but thats about it.

The new Sage postees start by listing the features of the machine, some even give a lesson in thermodynamics to explain the quick cycle thyme of the machine (see what I did there ?)

The cynics may describe it as covert advertising


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## Spazbarista

A good machine will sell itself.

Ever seen an Expo bar or a Londinium advert? Which celebrity name appears on all Expo machines?


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## Mrboots2u

Expobarista said:


> A good machine will sell itself.
> 
> Ever seen an Expo bar or a Londinium advert? Which celebrity name appears on all Expo machines?


Both machines make coffee

None of out have both in our kitchen

bella Barista have both , to anyone really thinking about buying either ,that would be the place to go . Im sure Claudette will guide anyone through pro and cons of both and happily take anyone's money for either of them .

Please let's draw this to a close .


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## coffeechap

Bart Simpson without the tsimpson


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## coffeechap

Boots are you practising for your moderator role?


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## Mrboots2u

coffeechap said:


> Boots are you practising for your moderator role?


Nope I just really like this forum , I had a fun day meeting people, who are like minded and happily chatted about each other's interests and stuff without bickering or saying my machines better than yours .

it used to be fun here and it's boring now .

I'm going to say it Sage is the new Anthorn


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## Spazbarista

Ah poppycock. There's no bickering here, its just people expressing views. That's what forums are for, if you don't like it don't read it. There's only been one person acting like an aggressive dick over it, but he's already posted a blanket apology for it days ago.

Chill ya boots, Boots. Nobody gets wet talking about water,


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## jeebsy

Saftlad said:


> The level of vitriol towards the Sage does make me laugh though. If you don't like it, then move on, there's no need to repeat a stance.


The thing that gets me is how any new members coming on and asking about it are accused of selling it or being undercover Sage reps. Like working dog said this is a machine which is getting a lot of marketing and will be getting a lot of people who may never have thought about getting a coffee machine thinking about buying one. Given we're so high up in the Google rankings it's natural we'll end up with a lot of traffic asking about it. The sooner we can get a side by side test the better we'll be able to advise on it.



Expobarista said:


> Ever seen an Expo bar or a Londinium advert?



View attachment 4616


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## Sunil

As a new member on the forum, and as someone who found the forum and Glenn's original Sage thread via Google search, and then went on to buy the machine (and the grinder), I'd like to add a couple of bits:

1. There seems to be a lot of factual information on here already about the Sage; shouldn't need any further threads

2. The only unanswered question seems to be reliability long term. Only time will tell, not more posts

3. Sage offer a two year warranty, and one can purchase the extended JL warranty for £28 that covers the machine for the third year

4. As someone who appreciates good coffee, but has only just started trying to produce good coffee, I will say that £1500 worth of equipment does not guarentee you an awesome espresso: I've had some really good shots from the sage and some really rubbish ones. No doubt due to my inexperience with espresso.

5. I'm really excited to learn and get better and I believe the sage will prove sufficient for the next several years of my journey

6. For me, the other big draw was the machine seemed very 'approachable' and I'm happy to say, one month in, the wife uses it every day as well.

I think I'll stop now, and go start a thread about espresso cups which have become my new obsession!

PS: I don't work for Heston, Sage, JL or any other interested party.


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## Daren

Ladies... Just stop. It's like the Jeremy Kyle show and I hate it. This isn't nice to read. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking it. The aggression - no matter where it comes from is not an adult way to express yourselves. Retaliation is just as bad.

Let's keep the bad feeling for Starbucks and move on. Be nice!


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## Spazbarista

You are quite right. No more on this aggressive nonsense from me. End of.


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## Saftlad

jeebsy said:


> The thing that gets me is how any new members coming on and asking about it are accused of selling it or being undercover Sage reps. Like working dog said this is a machine which is getting a lot of marketing and will be getting a lot of people who may never have thought about getting a coffee machine thinking about buying one. Given we're so high up in the Google rankings it's natural we'll end up with a lot of traffic asking about it. The sooner we can get a side by side test the better we'll be able to advise on it.


Fair shout.

Maybe if we all stopped repeating the S word, the forum would drop down the rankings? I don't know the answer, and as I've only been here 5 minutes I guess I haven't had to suffer the apparent "covert advertising", this forum is too knowledgeable to fall for such unfounded claims and especially with the sums of money involved.

They would probably have more success with posting in Good Housekeeping if such a forum exists, or mumsnet.


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## jeebsy

Sunil said:


> 6. For me, the other big draw was the machine seemed very 'approachable' and I'm happy to say, one month in, the wife uses it every day as well.


I've got an Oscar - my sister uses her boyfriend's Classic no problems but when she comes down to visit she always asks me to do the coffees. Not sure if it's laziness or she's intimidated by the machine!


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## garydyke1

Mrboots2u said:


> Even though Gary has a brewtus, and loves it , I'd trust him to give an impartial view sage versus brewtus .
> 
> Personally I don't care, what the outcome is . I'm never going to buy one , I don't care if anyone does buy one, or wants to buy one .
> 
> I just want us to have a couple of views so we can talk about something, anything else , on the forum for at least one day, without the same my dad is bigger than your dad conversations
> 
> My offer of paying the carriage is genuine ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And my dad is bigger
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and my bike is faster


That hair is the one! Amazing


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## garydyke1

All said and done. Ill test the machine, and , be honest and fair. If its as good or better than the Expo I'll relay that on here.

It wont happen though. Boots - fair play for offering to pay carriage


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## Jon12345

What won't happen? The test or a win for the Sage?


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## coffeechap

Clearly the opportunity for gary to test it.p


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## Jon12345

Why won't it happen then?


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## garydyke1

Yep the test of course!

and to add, 4-5 shots at Bella Barista isnt a proper test, sure you might like/dislike the user-friendly properties of the machines.

Whats needed is a few weeks getting everything dialled-in properly and duplicating my existing routine. calibrating pressure and temperature etc . Beans I know and love used and abused....

Anyway , more chance of Mike Hag rejoining the forum


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## coffeechap

Perhaps sage have enough good publicity and don't want to risk any less than positive feedback ( if there is any at all)


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## Jon12345

I'm more worried for Expobar, because if the Sage performs well, it will rattle a few cages, if it hasn't already. With all the venom for the Sage, you would think Expobar has got a few reps in here!


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## jeebsy

The Expo seems to have earned its rep, on this forum and others. If it gets tested by Gary and it does well it might ruffle a few feathers but think people will be more accepting of it.


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## Jon12345

I wish there was a machine that did it all at a rock bottom price. It would make my decision far easier! Had a Rancilio Silvia for about 8 years but it broke down 3 times. Had to get rid of it.


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## coffeechap

Jon12345 said:


> I'm more worried for Expobar, because if the Sage performs well, it will rattle a few cages, if it hasn't already. With all the venom for the Sage, you would think Expobar has got a few reps in here!


I think you are mistaking skepticism for venom, if it does well then it will be applauded, if it doesn't it won't, simple, we are a fair bunch on here that like to see things tested properly, I sincerely hope it stands up better than the grinder that I have at the moment...


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## Spazbarista

Sooner or later something will come along that does a better job than the Expobar, for the same or less money, and lasts as long.

Do I think its the Sage? We won't know for at least 5 years.

Will I care? No.

I'll probably have a Londinium by then, anyway.


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## Charliej

coffeechap said:


> I think you are mistaking skepticism for venom, if it does well then it will be applauded, if it doesn't it won't, simple, we are a fair bunch on here that like to see things tested properly, I sincerely hope it stands up better than the grinder that I have at the moment...


I would say I have the same reservations as you regarding the grinder Dave, and to me, having seen the wider range of machines that the parent company produce, would suggest that the grinder was originally aimed at being paired with the lower end machines and to that end built and specced accordingly, as the machine itself seems to be built to a much higher standard.


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## xiuxiuejar

Buy what you want. If you want a classic chrome e-61 espresso machine then the Expobar is a truly wonderful machine. I am in love with mine and know that - for me - it is the right machine.

If you want something that does everything for you - probably can be programmed to walk the dog - then the Sage is for you.

I am a traditionalist, I prefer the Expobar. My brother, who loves new technology, but gets bored very quickly, has just bought the Sage and the Sage grinder. A note about the grinder I spent ten minutes last Saturday putting washers underneath the burrs - made a huge difference to the coffee. For me, these are toys but that's just my opinion - each to his/her own!


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## Jon12345

I had a look at the cost of a KWh today and its about 13p. So that's 26p per hour for the Brewtus. if you leave it on for 8 hours a day, that is £700 per year in electricity - rather a lot! So, its making me think the fast heat up time of the Sage might make it a better option for me, as I can switch it on when needed. I think these are hidden costs that people don't factor in. I prefer the look of the Brewtus, but prefer the efficiency and cost savings of the Sage.


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## Neill

Jon12345 said:


> I had a look at the cost of a KWh today and its about 13p. So that's 26p per hour for the Brewtus. if you leave it on for 8 hours a day, that is £700 per year in electricity - rather a lot! So, its making me think the fast heat up time of the Sage might make it a better option for me, as I can switch it on when needed. I think these are hidden costs that people don't factor in. I prefer the look of the Brewtus, but prefer the efficiency and cost savings of the Sage.


Put the brewtus on a timed plug and that's your calculations out the window. Plus had anyone proven this quick heat up in terms of stability.


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## Jon12345

It still takes considerably longer than the Sage to heat up. Imagine you are out and about, come home and fancy a coffee. You have to wait 20 to 30 minutes with the Brewtus. That is 10 to 20 minutes extra cost or roughly 6p. And the delay. Also, if your machine is coming on and off all day, it might not be at the times when you feel like a coffee. Going out for the day? Don't forget to turn off the timer at the plug! All a bit inconvenient. It seems that no one can admit to the convenience of the Sage with the fast heat up times. Seems like a case of denial to me!

If you have the Brewtus turn on 3 times per day and use immediately when ready, that works out at 6p x 3 x 365 = £66 extra per year in electricity. It mounts up.


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## 4515

Seems that your mind was already made up

Buy the sage and enjoy


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## xiuxiuejar

depends on service costs and reliability too though. I espect y Brewtus to last me and I know that they have generally good longetivity but I also know that the Brevilles (Sage USA / Australia) have had a lot of problems. It can't be good to have a boiler heating up so quickly either. And I'm sure that even if it heats up in 3 minutes it isn't going to be very temperature stable after 3 minutes.


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## Geordie Boy

Jon12345 said:


> It still takes considerably longer than the Sage to heat up. Imagine you are out and about, come home and fancy a coffee. You have to wait 20 to 30 minutes with the Brewtus. That is 10 to 20 minutes extra cost or roughly 6p. And the delay. Also, if your machine is coming on and off all day, it might not be at the times when you feel like a coffee. Going out for the day? Don't forget to turn off the timer at the plug! All a bit inconvenient. It seems that no one can admit to the convenience of the Sage with the fast heat up times. Seems like a case of denial to me!
> 
> If you have the Brewtus turn on 3 times per day and use immediately when ready, that works out at 6p x 3 x 365 = £66 extra per year in electricity. It mounts up.


You need to know the real power consumption of the machines once the boilers have got to temperature (as the power consumption reduces) for you to know your answer. You won't know this unless you take a measurement from real machines. I think you've assumed the Brewtis consumes full power for the additional 10-20 mins which is unlikely to be correct


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## garydyke1

Don't forget you can turn the steam boiler off to just pull shots and turn the brew boiler off to just have hot water or steam , that reduces consumption .


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## Dylan

Jon12345 said:


> It still takes considerably longer than the Sage to heat up. Imagine you are out and about, come home and fancy a coffee. You have to wait 20 to 30 minutes with the Brewtus. That is 10 to 20 minutes extra cost or roughly 6p. And the delay. Also, if your machine is coming on and off all day, it might not be at the times when you feel like a coffee. Going out for the day? Don't forget to turn off the timer at the plug! All a bit inconvenient. It seems that no one can admit to the convenience of the Sage with the fast heat up times. Seems like a case of denial to me!
> 
> If you have the Brewtus turn on 3 times per day and use immediately when ready, that works out at 6p x 3 x 365 = £66 extra per year in electricity. It mounts up.


This completely depends on the boiler size. If they have the same size boiler they will cost the exact same to heat upas the 10 minute heat up will consume a lot more power to heat the water that quickly vs the 30min heat up of the brewtus.


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## coffeechap

Jon12345 said:


> It still takes considerably longer than the Sage to heat up. Imagine you are out and about, come home and fancy a coffee. You have to wait 20 to 30 minutes with the Brewtus. That is 10 to 20 minutes extra cost or roughly 6p. And the delay. Also, if your machine is coming on and off all day, it might not be at the times when you feel like a coffee. Going out for the day? Don't forget to turn off the timer at the plug! All a bit inconvenient. It seems that no one can admit to the convenience of the Sage with the fast heat up times. Seems like a case of denial to me!
> 
> If you have the Brewtus turn on 3 times per day and use immediately when ready, that works out at 6p x 3 x 365 = £66 extra per year in electricity. It mounts up.


Just buy the sage, pay £150 more and enjoy and let's us be in denial


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## ronsil

Don't often get bored on here but I'm finding these discussions seem go on forever with the same thing over & over again.


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## Charliej

Regarding the warm up time of the Sage, yes it does get up to indicated temp in ~3 minutes, however just had the machine switched off for an hour and then turned it back on and pulled a shot as soon as the display indicated 93 degrees had been reached, I'm drinking the resulting shot as I type. The only parameter that has changed from shots I have been pulling of Jampit is the warm up time and there is definitely a sour edge to the shot even in milk, much the same as you would get with any machine not left to warm up properly. When the machine goes into power save mode it wakes up and reaches temperature very quickly and the coffee tastes fine, it's just with warm up from cold I am experiencing this, as I usually have the machine come on 30 minutes before I get up.


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## jeebsy

Glenn indicated in his review that three minutes was pretty optimistic and suggested 10 mins would be about right before it was good to go.


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## Jon12345

In my calculations of cost, I am assuming 7 minutes to warm up on the Sage. I'm coming to the conclusion that the decision is practicality and power cost savings (Sage) verses aesthetics and long term robustness. This is all assuming there isn't much difference between the coffee taste from both. Its kinda strange that this element has been nudged to a side issue!









Charlie, would be interesting if you got to have a go with a Brewtus. Then again, I suppose its still different to trying one out for a couple of weeks as opposed to a quick go with one.


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## coffeechap

ronsil said:


> Don't often get bored on here but I'm finding these discussions seem go on forever with the same thing over & over again.


Yep yawn yawn yawn


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## Charliej

Jon12345 said:


> In my calculations of cost, I am assuming 7 minutes to warm up on the Sage. I'm coming to the conclusion that the decision is practicality and power cost savings (Sage) verses aesthetics and long term robustness. This is all assuming there isn't much difference between the coffee taste from both. Its kinda strange that this element has been nudged to a side issue!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Charlie, would be interesting if you got to have a go with a Brewtus. Then again, I suppose its still different to trying one out for a couple of weeks as opposed to a quick go with one.


There is a much larger body of knowledge on the forums regarding the Brewtus as it is a known quantity and members have owned theirs for several years already, so I kind of already know what to expect from one as it has been on my list of machines to upgrade to if I had the money for some time now and I know what people who's opinions I respect think of them including Darth Dave Lever.

As I've previously said you don't even need to own any coffee making equipment to appreciate a good coffee when you taste one, much the same as any wine connoisseur doesn't need to own a winery or make wine to appreciate it. So I can only say in my personal experience and travels the Sage can make as good a cup of coffee as I have had in pretty much any coffee shop, I also have no doubts whatsoever that the Brewtus is every bit as capable of pulling the same standard of shots.

In my opinion so far and as I said to you on the phone, Jon, all the Sage does is provide yet another option in the £1k+ market.


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## Spazbarista

Since the title of this thread is Sage or Expobar, it needs to be somebody who knows what they are talking about. Coffee chap and Gary have Expos, and i know that Gary is supremely acquainted with his, I've got one too but I haven't got spare time to be cocking about with a review.

Ga-ry Ga-ry Ga-ry Ga-ry....


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## Glenn

A small number of posts have been moved as personal attacks will not be tolerated.

Should anyone wish to see both machines side-by-side please contact Bella Barista who hold stocks of both.

There will be similar questions probably well into the next year

it would be better to point new members to an existing 'model thread' rather than bicker about which is better on multiple threads.


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## 4515

Mrboots2u said:


>


More importantly, has that pic been flipped or was the chain really on the left side ?


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## Spazbarista

Well spotted!


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## garydyke1

I'm going to contact Charlie's contact at Sage and ask the question . I doubt anything will happen and if It did it would be in the new year


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## Mrboots2u

I'd like to hopefully drawn this thread to a close, with something a bit more uplifting .

A song from a children's film but with a worthy sentiment I think






Were weakened divided , Let friendship double up our powers........


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## garydyke1

**** STOP PRESS ****

Sage have very kindly offered to send me both a machine and grinder for some friendly-user trials.









I have requested the period of 4-6 weeks to get a real feel for the kit and some specific versus battles against the Expobar/Royal. I will document everything I can , pictures and video.

I'm sure you are all cheering and clapping.


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## 4085

Even me...!

Congratulations!


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## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> Even me...!
> 
> Congratulations!


It think i hear the four horsemen &#8230;..

Great news Gary.


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## garydyke1

I know, if only La Marzocco were so yielding


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## coffeechap

Woooo ha finally!


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## Charliej

garydyke1 said:


> I know, if only La Marzocco were so yielding


Or Slayer







well done


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## Jon12345

Gary, when did they say they would send you the machine?


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## garydyke1

I believe it will be over the next few days/week.


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## garydyke1

Also, if anyone would like to be the official bean sponsor of 'Sage versus Expo : battle of the DBs', please don't hesitate to let me know!


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## Jon12345

Great, looking forward to your evaluation.

I know we all have different needs. So some features are more important one person than the next. But to get a side-by-side comparison of quality of coffee, usability and so on would be great. Would be nice if the coffee tasting was randomised to avoid the placebo effect.


----------



## 4085

Why dont you ask Sage forr some, since it is only they who can ultimately benefit. Tell them you want 10 kilos of your mates red stuff and expect it to be arranged.....I would!


----------



## garydyke1

From a taste perspective some blind tests will be conducted sure, Ill need one of the Brummies on here to come and help.


----------



## Geordie Boy

garydyke1 said:


> From a taste perspective some blind tests will be conducted sure, Ill need one of the Brummies on here to come and help.


I don't mind helping in that department


----------



## garydyke1

Not sure if this has been posted before, apologies if it has


----------



## garydyke1

** UPDATE **

I should expect the Machine and Grinder to be delivered Friday .


----------



## Mrboots2u

Not see it posted on here , cheers Gary . The benchmark has been set for your review now...

Good news re delivery though


----------



## garydyke1

The 25kgs versus 12 kgs was an eye opener


----------



## Daren

garydyke1 said:


> ** UPDATE **
> 
> I should expect the Machine and Grinder to be delivered Friday .


Are you getting the White Glove service sir?


----------



## Charliej

Daren said:


> Are you getting the White Glove service sir?


I haven't had that as yet, but there again didn't ask lol.


----------



## garydyke1

I don't think I'll need it . The instructions are pretty clear ?!


----------



## Daren

It would be interesting to see what a knowledgeable person makes of it compared to a novice.


----------



## 4085

Are we gonna get together and organise some beans for Gary then? If anyone wants to help, pm me. I can place an order with Rave and will co-ordinate it. If Gary would like to chose some bean types and post it here.


----------



## Charliej

Daren said:


> It would be interesting to see what a knowledgeable person makes of it compared to a novice.


Well I guess either myself or Gary could ask about it, but tbh even a novice should be able to get up and running as the instructions are very well written, in fact one of the best sets of instructions I have seen for anything, the grinder also has a decent set of instructions, I just think its a shame that unless bought from BB then the machine will more than likely be paired with the Smart Grinder, which is a crying shame really.


----------



## Charliej

dfk41 said:


> Are we gonna get together and organise some beans for Gary then? If anyone wants to help, pm me. I can place an order with Rave and will co-ordinate it. If Gary would like to chose some bean types and post it here.


OI where's the offer of beans for me lol







. Only pulling your leg David.


----------



## garydyke1

I feel special.









To be honest any SO thats fresh & in season (Brazil and Bolivia).

I could name 6 single origins from my Red-bagged friends but am not familiar with Rave's offerings?

If the forum does chip in for a few Kilos then the least I can do is hold an open day round mine (if you can get to Brum) where members can have a play on the Sage


----------



## Mrboots2u

Stick me in for £10 towards tiny Tim's ( Gary ) coffee fund. Better he has beans he is used to extracting so if he wants the brummy red badged stuff ok by me ...


----------



## specialpants

I'll just throw in my 2cents.

I had a BES900 and an Alex Duetto back at home in Australia. One machine at home, and one machine at my girlfriends. Both were paired with mazzer grinders. The Breville machine is pretty innovative and does a pretty good job. Shot quality was on par with the Duetto.

The BES900 did have some build quality issues - such as an seal on a solenoid (or something along those lines), slipping portafilters etc. All was good as these items are covered under their 2 year warranty. Hopefully these are all addressed in the BES920.

Anyways, the breville in australia came at a specific price point which was good value in my opinion (1000AUD for the breville vs 3000AUD for the duetto). Eventually, there were deals where it cost 1000AUD with a free smart grinder.

Back to the original post - I'm not too sure why the BES920 costs more here, but I personally wouldn't spend 1200GBP on the BES920. At that price, I'd pick the brewtus; E61 group head, copper pipes, plumbed/welded connections etc.


----------



## specialpants

Both very capable machines. It's all down to the beans, grinder & experience.

Here's a latte art example from the Duetto:


__
http://instagr.am/p/WP38gWIh9u/

And here's one on the Breville:


__
http://instagr.am/p/QA3GHwIh92/

And here's a pull with the breville naked handle (i dont think it's available here yet):


__
http://instagr.am/p/QS6CChoh9z/

FWIW - it was very hard to ruin milk on the Breville. Very forgiving machine - so it's good for a beginner. It's fine on the duetto too - except you have less time because it heats up the milk so quickly!


----------



## Charliej

I know what you mean regarding the price point in Australia due to the much higher relative cost of the Italian machines and the Expobars, I think is has just been the case of 1200 units of currency wherever it is sold at the moment. So where that kind of price makes sense in Australia here it co-incides with the Expobar dual boiler. If it cost say~ £850 here that would put its market position into more or less the same spot.


----------



## garydyke1

Just wanted to say thanks for the amazing show of generosity from some of the folk on this forum. (you know who you are)


----------



## Dave.wilton

specialpants said:


> Anyways, the breville in australia came at a specific price point which was good value in my opinion (1000AUD for the breville vs 3000AUD for the duetto). Eventually, there were deals where it cost 1000AUD with a free smart grinder.


That's £550 right now!


----------



## coffeechap

Might be worth waiting!!!!


----------



## Dave.wilton

coffeechap said:


> Might be worth waiting!!!!


I'm headed to Australia in a month for good and shocked by the price of machines there. I don't really want one of these though and emigrating costs a lot of money so not really tempered to buy before I go.

I think I want a Brutus...


----------



## Charliej

Dave.wilton said:


> I'm headed to Australia in a month for good and shocked by the price of machines there. I don't really want one of these though and emigrating costs a lot of money so not really tempered to buy before I go.
> 
> I think I want a Brutus...


You're far better off buying that here and getting shipped with the rest of your stuff, as you have already seen the price of machines there is very high, especially European ones.

At risk of repeating myself, $1000 AUD is only £550 if you are paying with money changed from the £ to $ here. Once you are there, you will soon discover that quite a lot of your general shopping needs are way more expensive, and if you want decent brand named clothes and shoes and other household goods, cars can be crazy prices, and that basically when all is taken into account each $ only buys on average what £1 buys here, as when you live there you are earning $ not £. So the direct conversion just doesn't work.


----------



## Dave.wilton

In general you are right Charlie although you couldn't to know I will continue to earn a wage expressed in pounds. However having looked at wages in Australia I still think $1000 is a lot less than £1000 relative to wage. But as you say wages may be higher to account for the higher cost of living. anyway as you say this has been done before.

Yes it does make sense to ship one with me. But I worry about the Warranty and not being able to send it back. The ideal thing would have been to get it a couple of years ago.


----------



## Charliej

Dave.wilton said:


> In general you are right Charlie although you couldn't to know I will continue to earn a wage expressed in pounds. However having looked at wages in Australia I still think $1000 is a lot less than £1000 relative to wage. But as you say wages may be higher to account for the higher cost of living. anyway as you say this has been done before.
> 
> Yes it does make sense to ship one with me. But I worry about the Warranty and not being able to send it back. The ideal thing would have been to get it a couple of years ago.


Just check and see if it could be offered with an international warranty that way the distributor in Aus would be ok for warranty work. Whereabouts over there are you heading?

As regards the cost of living some stuff is way cheaper, some is way more, take a small PET bottle of Coke and a Mars bar over here ~£2 over there ~$6 and thats from the supermarkets, European car prices are sky high there, you'd pay Porsche money here for a modestly equipped Audi or BMW saloon there. On average doing the supermarket shopping in Woolworths there costs more in proportion to here.


----------



## garydyke1

Additonal thanks to the ongoing gerosity by members of this forum ! I now owe at least 3 people a beer or two!

Bean 'sponsorship' for the 6 weeks of testing is looking quite healthy : )

Hopefully the machine and grinder are on the way today


----------



## Geordie Boy

Put me down for £10


----------



## ronsil

I'm in for £10. Include a darker bean. Interested to see how the duo treat a higher degree of roasting.


----------



## garydyke1

...still no sign of the Sage package.....


----------



## Fevmeister

Why are we paying for Garys beans?


----------



## Mrboots2u

Fevmeister said:


> Why are we paying for Garys beans?


We? Why not? .....you don't have to . Couple of people thought it was a nice gesture to offer as he is spending Xmas time doing a review we all pushed him to do. Don't feel obliged. Think he has enough no a


----------



## coffeechap

Fevmeister said:


> Why are we paying for Garys beans?


We is not the forum it is a few who desperately want this put to bed I am in for contributions


----------



## garydyke1

Lets be clear Fev I didnt ask anyone, people volunteered. Still blown away at peoples generosity here : )

However considering I will likely be rattling through 3-4 kilos+ of beans over a 6 week period for a variety of tests as well holding an 'open day' for forum members to come play on both machines/grinders - this could have cost me a great deal of money (as well as time). The beans Ill be using will not be £10 a kilo commodity put it that way!

Remember the testing isnt for my benefit - im not in the market for a new machine, its for the good of the forum, and, wider specalty coffee community who want to know how these machines stack up.

Drum roll please.................


----------



## garydyke1

coffeechap said:


> We is not the forum it is a few who desperately want this put to bed I am in for contributions


Nice one dude!!!


----------



## garydyke1

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/411535443834847232


----------



## Spazbarista

I can't help feeling that we won't hear from Gary for a few weeks.

And when we do, he will look like this....


----------



## Mrboots2u

Or this will happen ...


----------



## 4515

I chucked a few quid into the bean fund. Not that I felt I had to, more that I was one of the people who called for a side by side testing and it felt right to contribute in some way.

I'm not in the market for a new machine and when I am I know where I'll be going so there is nothing directly in it for me.

I was new to coffee earlier this year and have learnt a lot from the knowledge of the members on this forum. If I can give a bit back to the new members - lots of whom have found us from the new kid on the block then I'm happy to do so.


----------



## jeebsy

I'm glad this debate is going to be resolved Harry Hill style after all


----------



## Charliej

If anyone in the North West also wants to see the Sage machine in action I'm at home most of the time so drop me a pm and we'll see what we can sort out, or the other option is the one Ronsil made, I don't mind taking the machine and grinder over to his place in Altrincham if he is still up for that.


----------



## garydyke1

There is no grinder, so I have emailed Sage to see if the delivery company forgot to give me package 2 of 2.

The machine is plugged in and warm. After the gym ill be making myself a couple of drinks to get aquinted. Ive taken a few pictures but as tapatalk appears to be screwed ill have to wait until I can host them somewhere else. Its twitter for now : (


----------



## 4515

jeebsy said:


> I'm glad this debate is going to be resolved Harry Hill style after all


Told you so ......


----------



## Charliej

garydyke1 said:


> There is no grinder, so I have emailed Sage to see if the delivery company forgot to give me package 2 of 2.
> 
> The machine is plugged in and warm. After the gym ill be making myself a couple of drinks to get aquinted. Ive taken a few pictures but as tapatalk appears to be screwed ill have to wait until I can host them somewhere else. Its twitter for now : (


Being brutally honest you're not missing much not having the grinder for espresso , but would have been very useful to get your views on how well it works for brewed coffees as I don't drink brewed much and have only got a double wall stainless steel FP, moka pot and an old bodum pour over thing thats like the Swissgold one cup affairs but it's filter is stainless steel not gold, had it many many years, bought in 1989 I think.


----------



## garydyke1

Initial observations.

Grinder on same setting . Both Brewtus and Sage display the same pressure reading when up to full pressure, however with preinfusion settings as default, the sage gives much less output for the same shot time.

30 Seconds

Brewtus - 34g

Sage - 25g

Thus to make it a even test I would need to reduce the Sage preinfusion time. I ask myself if the extended preinfusion on the Sage is reducing channeling, hence reduced flow-rate.

I tell you what tho. The machine is like it has stabilisers. My first shot from the Sage was better than anything Ive had from Brewtus all day. The milk texture from the sage is better than anything I can get from the Brewtus - I suspect this is because its much slower.

Its a shame I cant have a naked portafilter on the Sage to check out whats going on under the bonnet in terms of beading on the VST and use my manometer to check pressure readings.

I calibrated Brewtus temperature today and its bang on & so is pressure.


----------



## jeebsy

garydyke1 said:


> I tell you what tho. The machine is like it has stabilisers. My first shot from the Sage was better than anything Ive had from Brewtus all day. The milk texture from the sage is better than anything I can get from the Brewtus - I suspect this is because its much slower.


Oooooohhhhh....


----------



## Charliej

garydyke1 said:


> Initial observations.
> 
> Grinder on same setting . Both Brewtus and Sage display the same pressure reading when up to full pressure, however with preinfusion settings as default, the sage gives much less output for the same shot time.
> 
> 30 Seconds
> 
> Brewtus - 34g
> 
> Sage - 25g
> 
> Thus to make it a even test I would need to reduce the Sage preinfusion time. I ask myself if the extended preinfusion on the Sage is reducing channeling, hence reduced flow-rate.
> 
> I tell you what tho. The machine is like it has stabilisers. My first shot from the Sage was better than anything Ive had from Brewtus all day. The milk texture from the sage is better than anything I can get from the Brewtus - I suspect this is because its much slower.
> 
> Its a shame I cant have a naked portafilter on the Sage to check out whats going on under the bonnet in terms of beading on the VST and use my manometer to check pressure readings.
> 
> I calibrated Brewtus temperature today and its bang on & so is pressure.


Shouldn't your naked pf for Brewtus fit the Sage Gary? I've managed to squeeze my Gaggia naked pf in because of easy access at the left hand side of the Sage.

But it seems I was not wrong about the quality of shot the Sage can produce. Gary, I found that I needed to drop the preinfusion down to 3 seconds at around 57-58% pressure to get normal sort of output, it's a 7 second preinfusion as default and I think it's better to treat the actual shot as starting from when you see the 1st drips of coffee as you would on a lever.


----------



## garydyke1

No it doesnt fit sadly, e61 doesnt : (

yeah the 7 seconds is overkill...or is it?? the kind of output versus time I achieved on the Sage would have been a sink shot on the Brewtus...and yet it was tasty. The same could be replicated on Brewtus by starting the shot, then cutting the pump for 5 seconds before turning the pump back on. Ill have to give it a go!

Then again I could have just got lucky...


----------



## Charliej

Did you raise the steamboiler temp yet on the advanced menu, it did speed it up swapping from 135 to 140 degrees, but still remains nice and silky milk texture, seriously- have a go at messing up the milk, every time I'v tried that a couple of taps and swirls and back to a jug of gloss paint.


----------



## Mrboots2u

When is Geordie boy coming over . I want a film review like Claudette did.........


----------



## MWJB

Wouldn't it make sense to match mass of shots and negate (to some degree) the preinfuse time? Just count the flow?


----------



## garydyke1

MWJB said:


> Wouldn't it make sense to match mass of shots and negate (to some degree) the preinfuse time? Just count the flow?


Definately . that will happen after more meddling


----------



## Fevmeister

Not sure why people reacted to my simple question like they did. I was wondering what it was all about as I thought I should chip in as well????


----------



## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> Did you raise the steamboiler temp yet on the advanced menu, it did speed it up swapping from 135 to 140 degrees, but still remains nice and silky milk texture, seriously- have a go at messing up the milk, every time I'v tried that a couple of taps and swirls and back to a jug of gloss paint.


Yeah I did that. I think the 3 hole tip design is great actually, although I wouldnt want to steam milk for 2-3 drinks if I was in a rush, its pretty slow


----------



## garydyke1

Fevmeister said:


> Not sure why people reacted to my simple question like they did. I was wondering what it was all about as I thought I should chip in as well????


No worries : )


----------



## Charliej

garydyke1 said:


> Yeah I did that. I think the 3 hole tip design is great actually, although I wouldnt want to steam milk for 2-3 drinks if I was in a rush, its pretty slow


I've used it to steam milk for a big mug of hot chocolate a couple of times so at a guess easily 2-3 milk based drinks worth and weirdly it didn't seem to take a great deal longer than normal, guess its some sort of Aussie voodoo lol.


----------



## Geordie Boy

Mrboots2u said:


> When is Geordie boy coming over


It'll be the new year as I'm back north over Xmas


----------



## garydyke1

Geordie Boy said:


> It'll be the new year as I'm back north over Xmas


Indeed, and youre bringing cake!


----------



## Geordie Boy

I can bring muffins the size of a cake


----------



## garydyke1

Ok . Science test number 1 & 2

Number 1 noise. Below is how loud they are at full pelt / full pressure

Number 2 pressure readings. Same video below. Sage is OPV'd @10BAR. Expo @10.5BAR (Gauge and Manometer confirm each other)


----------



## garydyke1

2nd time of using the steam wand on the machine I actually tried to screw the milk up by not bothering to stetch at all. The result glorious silky microfoam, I was in such shock I failed to do a decent pour


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/411794862531280896


----------



## GS11

garydyke1 said:


> Ok . Science test number 1 & 2
> 
> Number 1 noise. Below is how loud they are at full pelt / full pressure
> 
> Number 2 pressure readings. Same video below. Sage is OPV'd @10BAR. Expo @10.5BAR (Gauge and Manometer confirm each other)


Sage giving a good account of itself on the steaming side.


----------



## ronsil

Impressive start Gary.

As most know I don't love machines only the coffee that can be produced from one.

If I find a Machine below 5K that's better than my S1 I'm in.

Have ignored this thread up until these trials, now reading with great interest.


----------



## garydyke1

GS11 said:


> The expobar vibe pump is noisy. I'm only listening on a laptop but the sage is sounding much quieter to me.
> 
> Sage giving a good account of itself on the steaming side.


Note the positioning of the machines in my kitchen isnt truely fair, there is more echo around the Expo. However the plastic on the sage seems to deaden the vibration


----------



## 4085

Where is our L1 then Ron? You are not going to try and tell us the S1 makes a better shot are you!

Have ignored this thread up until these trials, now reading with great interest.


----------



## ronsil

If I really thought the L1 was more suited to my needs I'd have bought one.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Right you two , remember it's the sage versus the brewtus showdown. , not the l1 and s1 ......


----------



## garydyke1

Yeah. Actually Mr-Mod-Boots-sir can you create a locked thread where I can post test results, people can then have a general discussion off the back of the tests on this thread?

I dont want to dilute my findings


----------



## Mrboots2u

Yep I'll give it a go .....


----------



## Charliej

What I'm finding interesting so far is that Gary's findings are much the same as my own re the Sage, so to this point I'm feeling justified in what I have previously said, but got ripped a new one by some for.

Regarding the closed thread , maybe also give me access as well and co_ordinating with Gary we could both try the same tests with the Sage, I'll break out the professional calibrated sound level meter and get some readings from the Sage, I already know it's quieter than the Classic which now hasn't even been switched on for 3 weeks.

Ron if you want to see the Sage my offer is still open if you would like me to bring it over some time.


----------



## garydyke1

I think sometimes people just need to hear the music in stereo


----------



## Mrboots2u

Up to you guys but perhaps to keep its simple and to its title sage versus brewtus shoot out . It might be easier just to keep Gary's comparable machine comments on that thread for now.

What do you think ?


----------



## Charliej

garydyke1 said:


> I think sometimes people just need to hear the music in stereo


Maybe Gary, but to re-use what you said about my comments on an HB coffee. See I'm not going mad









A musing about the milk steaming, or lack of being able to mess it up, other than any Aussie Voodoo does any other machine you can think of come with a 3 hole tip and could the tip itself be the thing that makes the steaming so easy as well as the controlled steam, because by my reckoning having the steamboiler at 140 degrees should create a lot of pressure.


----------



## garydyke1

I would say the Expo is maybe twice as quick with the 1 hole tip and 3 times as quick with 2 holes - it takes A LOT of practise to get even macrofoam with 2 hole tip and all that 1.5 litre/1.3BAR boiler power.


----------



## Charliej

This is what I find puzzling the 950ml boiler in the Sage at 140 degrees should produce some serious pressure, so maybe its the tip that intentionally restricts it, but what the hell I'm all for something that makes steaming milk easier lol.


----------



## ronsil

Charliej said:


> Ron if you want to see the Sage my offer is still open if you would like me to bring it over some time.


I thank you for that but just currently we are redoing our kitchen (you may have seen that in another thread) & what with that & the proximity of the hols makes it a little more difficult to arrange. My original reason for making the offer of comparison was at that time information seemed to lacking. Since then you have posted a lot more & now Gary is playing so the capabilities of the Machine are becoming clearer. Early days at the moment, lets wait & see.


----------



## Charliej

Ok Ron.

One thing I am glad about now Gary has one to play with, is that we can maybe get round to some proper discussion about it rather than the previous slanging matches and people with no interest in the Sage whatsoever slinging mud at it without ever having been near one.


----------



## garydyke1

Another forum member is popping over tomorrow for a play on the Sage......Im hoping he will add comments afterwards


----------



## Charliej

I've come up with an interesting idea about testing the grinder and machine as a combo, as I guess many will be bought this way from JL.

One friend of mine , likes good coffee and when in town always seems to call in here for coffee as he hates what he can get in town , but knows nothing really about making espresso. So the test will be give him the manuals for the grinder and machine, some beans, my scales and tampers etc and see what he can produce for his 1st few shots and see if he can mess the milk up as me and Gary seem unable to manage that simple task lol.

I'm doing this as I expect that post Xmas and January sales we will have a lot of new owners of both signing up here.


----------



## specialpants

Charliej said:


> This is what I find puzzling the 950ml boiler in the Sage at 140 degrees should produce some serious pressure, so maybe its the tip that intentionally restricts it, but what the hell I'm all for something that makes steaming milk easier lol.


It sure does. I played with a number of tips with my duetto (2 hole, 4 hole & 1 hole [blocked one of the holes on the 2 hole tip]). All holes had a very similar diameter.

1 hole was slowest to heat milk, and 4 hole was the quickest.

The 3 hole on the Sage is great. It's very hard not to get perfect microfoam on it. It does take a little bit longer, but it's intended for domestic use - so that extra 10 seconds doesn't really matter.The diameter of the 3 hole is much smaller than the holes on most machines I've used in the past(eg rocket, rancilio, duetto etc).


----------



## Charliej

specialpants said:


> It sure does. I played with a number of tips with my duetto (2 hole, 4 hole & 1 hole [blocked one of the holes on the 2 hole tip]). All holes had a very similar diameter.
> 
> 1 hole was slowest to heat milk, and 4 hole was the quickest.
> 
> The 3 hole on the Sage is great. It's very hard not to get perfect microfoam on it. It does take a little bit longer, but it's intended for domestic use - so that extra 10 seconds doesn't really matter.The diameter of the 3 hole is much smaller than the holes on most machines I've used in the past(eg rocket, rancilio, duetto etc).


I don't suppose you have any idea what thread size the Sage tip is? would be interesting to try another tip if I could find one to fit.

Gary, as well as the volumetrics the other hands off feature on the Sage you have to like is the hands free back flushing with the cleaning cycle, I'm hoping atm that I will be able to keep the machine at least as far as it's 1st needed descale so I can detail that procedure, but from the manual it's a whole lot more hands off than any other machine.


----------



## garydyke1

Well parcel 2 of 2 has shown up and I now have a Sage Smart grinder to play with


----------



## garydyke1

In addition Sage are kindly sending me a SCACE , Fluke and naked portafilter!


----------



## CoffeeChris

After I got shot down by people on the quamar m80e It was not my intension to post back on here again. But Gary asked me to comment on my short visit.

I have got to say I'm impressed. When I first heard about the machine I must say I had written it off. Mainly due to the celeb endorsement. But I started to have a read on Home barista/Coffee geek and they were putting this machine up against the strada and the GS3 and the results "compared favourably" I know Gary has only just started his Tests, but judging the other reviews on the web it makes good espresso..

I keep reading comments from people dismissing this machine and also one guy getting shot down because of his comments!. Guys, you need to open your minds...Change is good and if it means more people can make quality drinks at home, well thats good isn't it?. And maybe, just maybe this will awaken other espresso makers to start thinking outside the box and start designing new features.

It's about time someone came along to bring something new to the game. Just getting the basics right, things like a built in shot timer, ergonomics to name but two. Why in 2013 are we just started to see scales fitted onto a commercial machine!

Yes, we are unsure how long the machine will last. But it is also in Sage's Interest to build a machine that will last. These guys seem to be in this for the long term.

I had a quick twitter conversation with Sage yesterday about pricing. They actually asked for my number and gave me a call! And looking at the conversations gary is having they seem Open and honest. Great Customer service.

Even a bad pour gave a very drinkable 5 oz drink....Which was strangely better or equal to most of the independents in Birmingham. Steaming milk was a breeze. Its a great modern machine to look at.

I look at the expo and its built and designed by engineers...This machine will last. Its solid.... I look at the Sage and I see a design process, yes I would probably need to handle the sage more carefully...does that bother me, not really.

I'm pretty sure once I have the grind sorted out I could confidently ask my partner for a latte and I would get a quality drink, equal to some coffee shops.

Anyway those are my thoughts on the machine...


----------



## 4515

Good to read. And its great that the machine is being given such an unbiased assessment. Good on Sage for putting their balls on the block and offering the machines out as test units.

The issue for me was the new posters asking for advice but then regurgitating the sage features in their sales pitch. At the time I suggested a direct comparison which we now have. I have to say that the results have surprised me but if the machine is capable of making decent drinks then this should be recognised

As you mention, and I said in a previous post, my better half would use the sage but has no interest in using my Cherub. It has its place in the market and JL is probably a perfect place to sell.


----------



## 4085

Hi and Hers (nearly) matching Xmas presents then Andrew....being a man of course, yours will have to have a lever to grab hold of though


----------



## garydyke1

Its been a busy weekend for coffee. 3 forum members have tried drinks from the Sage , Im hoping they add their comments also.

I know the Sage grinder isnt in scope for shootout testing, however I will say this: Im grinding as fine as it will go, updosing by 0.5g (18.5 in a 18 VST) and just about getting an acceptable shot time. However the grind distribution at this setting is so clumpy and chunky it requires me to run the coffee through my doser on the Royal to avoid excessive channeling. I will certainly endevour with some other beans to give it a fair go


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## 4515

dfk41 said:


> Hi and Hers (nearly) matching Xmas presents then Andrew....being a man of course, yours will have to have a lever to grab hold of though


I get enough comments about '*all* that coffee stuff' in the kitchen. Just about got away with the Mythos.

There is another problem though. If we were to exchange coffee machines as presents, she would know how much this stuff costs


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## Charliej

Gary,

Any chance you can run the Sage grinder for some brewed coffee, it's something I rarely dabble in and so am not really qualified to comment, as it seems to me if it is up to that job then it may make a good choice for brewed. I might give the grinder another go with my Classic just to see as that's really the level market it was originally designed for, and I think a lot people who buy the grinder and machine as a package from JL will be disappointed if they use the unpressurised baskets and as we all know the grind doesn't matter that much with pressurised ones.

Working Dog not every one of the new posters asking about the Sage DB(if any we don't know have connections) are "shills" for Sage, a good example here is Jon1234 who I actually spoke to on the phone about it and can confirm he is nothing to do with Sage other than being interested in the machine.

I am feeling justified in my comments about the machine now, again I have no bias here simply wanting to see what the new boy on the block can do, it has certainly made pulling a good shot a lot easier and way way more consistently than my Classic.


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## coffeechap

Really finding this strange Charlie as the one I have will choke just about any machine out there, due to the level of shims in it. This is more than likely the reason that it gets over heated as you are taking it beyond what it was supposed to do, I would even go as far as to say I could get Turkish out of it.!


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## garydyke1

Mine was confirmed as shimmed , however I cant choke the Sage DB with it unless I updose to 19.5g and run the grinds through my doser first.


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## Charliej

coffeechap said:


> Really finding this strange Charlie as the one I have will choke just about any machine out there, due to the level of shims in it. This is more than likely the reason that it gets over heated as you are taking it beyond what it was supposed to do, I would even go as far as to say I could get Turkish out of it.!


Getting it to choke either machine I have atm isn't a problem for me Dave with the Smart Grinder it's the fact that it makes the coffee taste kind of flat and lifeless compared to the RR55, so that's why I haven't been using it much, and mine is also shimmed. I was just wondering what it was like used for brewed and as I said that's not my forte.


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## garydyke1

Ill give it a go for Brewed tomorrow. It uses a pretty similar burr set-up to my Maestro + so should produce decent results - As the electronic dosing etc isnt needed for brewed itll just be grind quality and cup profile Ill be assessing....


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## Dylan

One of our new members was having the same problem not being able to grind fine enough for espresso.

I wonder if the burrs aren't mounted accurately enough to always give the same results with the same shim...?


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## Saftlad

That'll maybe be me. I am relieved to hear that someone else is having the same issue as me, though also disappointed that the grinder isn't what I expected.

When I looked for the shim, I found it between the spring-washer and the top of the burr. I was wondering whether it should actually be underneath the burr to bring it closer, but I only had that thought after putting it all back together and going to bed. I haven't looked any further into it.


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## 4085

working dog said:


> I get enough comments about '*all* that coffee stuff' in the kitchen. Just about got away with the Mythos.
> 
> There is another problem though. If we were to exchange coffee machines as presents, she would know how much this stuff costs


Just be a gentleman and offer to pay for them both!


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## garydyke1

fyi - My grinder does NOT have the shim present. One is now in the post.

This means the grinder will be able to grind fine enough afterall, albeit not straight off the bat .


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## Charliej

Saftlad said:


> That'll maybe be me. I am relieved to hear that someone else is having the same issue as me, though also disappointed that the grinder isn't what I expected.
> 
> When I looked for the shim, I found it between the spring-washer and the top of the burr. I was wondering whether it should actually be underneath the burr to bring it closer, but I only had that thought after putting it all back together and going to bed. I haven't looked any further into it.


Well in that case the shim is in the wrong place, if it's above the burr it may even be having the opposite effect from that desired. Give it a go with the shim under the burr and see how it goes then.


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## garydyke1

Saftlad said:


> That'll maybe be me. I am relieved to hear that someone else is having the same issue as me, though also disappointed that the grinder isn't what I expected.
> 
> When I looked for the shim, I found it between the spring-washer and the top of the burr. I was wondering whether it should actually be underneath the burr to bring it closer, but I only had that thought after putting it all back together and going to bed. I haven't looked any further into it.


That isnt the shim. The shim(s) should be 2 x 0.5mm


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## Charliej

Gary thanks for the info posted in the sticky, it confirms what I've been thinking and getting but was wondering if I was going crazy with the longer overall running time from pressing the button to complete shot seems to taste better, I've some shots at around 60 seconds in total and been really tasty. Did you get the info on the pressure profiling thing and could you pass it on to me as it would be nice to experiment, also you mentioned a possible work round for the quite frankly bloody annoying auto off and "power saving" modes. One improvement here, as the timer when taken as a whole seems to be an event based timer would to be give access to that as a whole then you could alter the times or bypass it totally. Have you tried the hands off backflush yet? thats one feature I really do like. I have requested that they let me keep the machine until I have to do its first indicated descale, which as I have fairly soft water may be a while, I got 2 markers on the water test strip "lit up".

If I manage to get over to Robert's and co I'll pick up some beans I'm familiar with just to use with the Sage grinder and my Classic as I certainly feel that's its appropriate market and to be brutally honest the only market I can see anyone recommending it for if it will do espresso for Silvia/Classic and brewed as well, the electronic dosing feature on the grinder does seem to be pretty accurate, I haven't checked the retention yet but will try some single dosing with it just to see.


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## garydyke1

Pressure profiling doesnt seem to work as per the Aussie contact is suggesting with their machine. The pump just cuts out and the OPV releases pressure : (

The auto off, pretty sure I saw it in the advanced menu? ill have a look again mate


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## Charliej

garydyke1 said:


> Pressure profiling doesnt seem to work as per the Aussie contact is suggesting with their machine. The pump just cuts out and the OPV releases pressure : (
> 
> The auto off, pretty sure I saw it in the advanced menu? ill have a look again mate


I think the one in the advanced menu is just to enable the auto start feature although I could be wrong.I guess maybe with some dextrous finger action on the buttons one could kludge a form of pressure profiling, something like let it preinfuse then come to full pressure then at your point of choice a fast double click and holding in of the manual button to make it finish the shot on preinfusion pressure.


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## Java Jive

garydyke1 said:


> Ill give it a go for Brewed tomorrow. It uses a pretty similar burr set-up to my Maestro + so should produce decent results - As the electronic dosing etc isnt needed for brewed itll just be grind quality and cup profile Ill be assessing....


Thanks, this would be really useful.


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## Mrboots2u

Theres a guy on the l1 forum. He only uses the.smart grinder fill stop. Mind you he is aussie....


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## Charliej

Mrboots2u said:


> Theres a guy on the l1 forum. He only uses the.smart grinder fill stop. Mind you he is aussie....


I think that maybe he is missing out then if the difference I am getting between my RR55 and the Sage in the cup even on the Classic, that said given the exchange rate an L1 is very expensive over there so maybe he's now saving for a better grinder, taking into account the price differentials over there, even given the generally higher wages the cost of european made goods is damned expensive. In 1998 when I went over there to live for a while I had a look at replacing my car like for like it was a 1994 Peugeot 205 GTI 1.9 litre, worth around £4k here, the identically specced version over there second hand was $14k AU and that was without the performance mods I had done, you have bought a brand new high spec Hyundai at the time for the same money.


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## garydyke1

The Has Bean coffee for the machine testing has arrived. 1.5kg of various processing methods of Finca David Vilca, a superb example of Bolivian coffee which often excels through an espresso machine, this particular farm's coffee has some subtle back-ground complexity and spice - will be interesting to see which machine presents which profile in the cup.

I believe 500g of Hands-On Lusty Glaze is also enroute : ).

Further coffee will be ordered when these beans starts to dwindle.


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## CoffeeChris

Don't know if you guys have read the article on Home barista, testing the sage against the strada....Interesting read...Nothing to technical, but seems to be positive results. A google search of "Quick look at Breville Dual Boiler Espresso Machine" will get you the page.


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## Fevmeister

anyone tried hands on black chough?


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## Mrboots2u

inaboxmedia said:


> Don't know if you guys have read the article on Home barista, testing the sage against the strada....Interesting read...Nothing to technical, but seems to be positive results. A google search of "Quick look at Breville Dual Boiler Espresso Machine" will get you the page.


I'll go check that out I think







. The yanks were talking about an update Breville DB odel appearing there next year . It's hard to tell if this is the sage that here already or not as they didn't go into specifics .


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## Charliej

Mrboots2u said:


> I'll go check that out I think
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . The yanks were talking about an update Breville DB odel appearing there next year . It's hard to tell if this is the sage that here already or not as they didn't go into specifics .


They're still on the older 900XL model over there Martin, can you post a link here when you find it please, I've just got to head out.

Gary, interesting results re. the Scace calibration, makes you wonder if that's a common problem and could make a mockery of some of the posted Scace results for the L1 and other machines if they all have that margin of error. I've got 1 more shot of the Has Bean Cachoeira left and then I'm moving on to this months DSOL beans so I guess I'd better fire up the Gaggia again, I'm also going to pick up something from Roberts & Co today to try with the Sage grinder and Classic.

Fev I used to buy a lot of both Lusty Glaze and Black Chough from Hands On they're both nice I only stopped buying from them due to trying other roasters and finding some have a better array of beans available, but you wouldn't be disappointed with either.


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## Mrboots2u

Looking at the home barista stuff ,they pulled a small amount of shots of the strada and the Breville there basic conclusion was they both make drinkable espresso, one steam better than the other .

Using a mythos as a grinder , one would hope that both machines would.

Blind taste testing is notoriously difficult to do full stop anyway .


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## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> Gary, interesting results re. the Scace calibration, makes you wonder if that's a common problem and could make a mockery of some of the posted Scace results for the L1 and other machines if they all have that margin of error. .


Well the instrument is only as good as the conditions it operates in. Boiling point is different at high altitude for example, although we are only 900ft above sea level here ; )

The offset can be changed on the Fluke , however as its a very expensive bit of kit and isnt mine, i dont want to touch it.


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## garydyke1

Java Jive said:


> Thanks, this would be really useful.


OK . So this morning I prepared a v60-01 with the Sage Smart grinder exactly how I did yesterday with my Maestro+

Adjusting the grind to the finer end of drip - this was much finer than the Maestro.

The resulting cup was sweet and a nice mouthfeel but the presence of fines as indicated by the presence of sludge on the filter must have been the contributing factor in a lack of clarity and bovril/bitterness in the cup.

Ive now backed off the grind to the coarsest the grinder will go. The grind looks comparable to the Maestro+ at my usual v60 setting HOWEVER the amount of fines is worrying. Ill try another brew on Friday at this setting a report back.


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## Geordie Boy

garydyke1 said:


> Well the instrument is only as good as the conditions it operates in. Boiling point is different at high altitude for example, although we are only 900ft above sea level here ; )


Still about 1degC compared to 0ft

The Midlands is higher than people realise. West Brom have the highest professional league ground in the country!


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## garydyke1

Yay, so the Fluke is correct and our location is the problem.

Quinton is one of the highest settlements in the West Midlands, the amount of snow we get is crazy. At the gym I train at altitude - im hardcore!


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## CoffeeChris

I have just taken delivery of my Sage, Hoping to get it set up soon....My Fracino Piccino will be for sale soon with some accessories


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## Mrboots2u

inaboxmedia said:


> I have just taken delivery of my Sage, Hoping to get it set up soon....My Fracino Piccino will be for sale soon with some accessories


Have fun with your new machine !


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## garydyke1

inaboxmedia said:


> I have just taken delivery of my Sage, Hoping to get it set up soon....My Fracino Piccino will be for sale soon with some accessories


Wow that was rapid! Let me know if you want to calibrate the operating temperature with the scace/Fluke?


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## CoffeeChris

yeah I can do....How long have you got it for? I won't have time to set up until xmas eve....but around all xmas


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## Charliej

Wow very fast I guess you were impressed with it at Gary's then, I think there are one or two edges on in that need sorting like the bloody annoying auto off and power save, but that's with me being in all day and wanting it ready to use when I walk up to it, and I don't know if it's just me but are you finding the standard portafilter retains a lot of liquid Gary?


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## garydyke1

The standard portafilter & spouts on the Sage are both crap. Not sure if you can retrofit some better / wider spouts? Wouldnt want to break them trying to get them off. The sage naked filter is great

With a 20g VST the standard Expo retains just as much liquid (not an issue with 18g basket) , however the TORR competition spouts are the dogs, so good I rarely use the naked anymore.


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## CoffeeChris

I have been looking at upgrading since the summer and was about to buy the quickmill verona. Luckily it was out of stock. It wasn't untill I popped around Garys on sunday. Its an ideal machine for me and my partner. Is there no way of turning the auto off, off! I thought there is a way..

I do think the sage dual boiler will get the traditional machines makers to wake up and start to add some features to there machine...it can only be a good thing.



Charliej said:


> Wow very fast I guess you were impressed with it at Gary's then, I think there are one or two edges on in that need sorting like the bloody annoying auto off and power save, but that's with me being in all day and wanting it ready to use when I walk up to it, and I don't know if it's just me but are you finding the standard portafilter retains a lot of liquid Gary?


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## Dylan

Mrboots2u said:


> I'll go check that out I think
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . The yanks were talking about an update Breville DB odel appearing there next year . It's hard to tell if this is the sage that here already or not as they didn't go into specifics .


It is very likely that it is the same machine, as when I was clearing up price comparisons I saw a couple of websites that had"pre-orders" for the 920 for release in Q1 next year.


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## garydyke1

inaboxmedia said:


> I have been looking at upgrading since the summer and was about to buy the quickmill verona. Luckily it was out of stock. It wasn't untill I popped around Garys on sunday. Its an ideal machine for me and my partner. Is there no way of turning the auto off, off! I thought there is a way..
> 
> I do think the sage dual boiler will get the traditional machines makers to wake up and start to add some features to there machine...it can only be a good thing.


I wouldnt sweat it , its pretty quick at getting up to temp from powersave. From complete cold its actually slower than Brewtus getting the scace output to match Display temp!


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## Dylan

Top job on this Gary, I'm glad this machine is being put through its paces some more and your wealth of knowledge and honed tastebuds are giving it a good evaluation.

I firmly put myself in the camp of understanding its value to relative newcomers but not really considering it an option for the more experienced coffee maker, but its certainly holding its own at the moment. If I can see one good thing come of this new machine, its getting the other european manufacturers to up their game and include some electronics in their machines (something others have pointed out). It shouldn't take slayer prices to get his kind of functionality.

Here's hoping the next revision has a baked in wemo ^_^


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## Charliej

D_Evans said:


> Top job on this Gary, I'm glad this machine is being put through its paces some more and your wealth of knowledge and honed tastebuds are giving it a good evaluation.
> 
> I firmly put myself in the camp of understanding its value to relative newcomers but not really considering it an option for the more experienced coffee maker, but its certainly holding its own at the moment. If I can see one good thing come of this new machine, its getting the other european manufacturers to up their game and include some electronics in their machines (something others have pointed out). It shouldn't take slayer prices to get his kind of functionality.
> 
> Here's hoping the next revision has a baked in wemo ^_^


I really don't understand this notion of the Sage only being of value to relative newcomers, who are unlikely to have a clue how to use all the more advanced features.I can only assume that this fallacy comes from the fact that JL sell it and you get the "white gloves service" if you want it, yet some of the same people heartily advocate getting some tuition in your own home on your own machine which is all that service is. I see nothing wrong at all with a machine that can effectively be setup for your other half and/or kids to use and at the same time have enough advanced features to satisfy your inner geek. None of the things that come with it are a substitute for knowledge and skills gained over time, as you need these to use any machine to it's best capabilities, it doesn't matter if I were to be using a 1 group Slayer, an L1, an R58, a Duetto, a Brewtus or the Sage you still need the skills to dial your grinder in and prep your shot correctly.


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## garydyke1

Having got both machines side by side I'm finding naturally gravitating to the Sage , it's just so easy to use . I need to forumulate I proper write up with data and detail.


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## Charliej

I haven't switched the Classic on in weeks now, one of things I do love about it is the ease of use and repeatability of things and the fact that along with all of this it makes damn good coffee.


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## garydyke1

Its useful being able to program the 1 cup button to act as a short flush, I press it then go prep my shot, return to machine and swipe cloth across drip tray & pull shot - annoying tho you cant remove the preinfusion or have independent preinfusion values for 1 and 2 cup.

Later revisions of software could make this the perfect machine for sure an easy routine.


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## CoffeeChris

If you hold button 1 down it does not pre-infuse....But I guess this will stop you prep shot etc?


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## garydyke1

Yeah I was aware of that but it was more around the press a button and walk away for a faster workflow. I think there are little touches to the functionality which would be greatly improved by a few tweaks.


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## Charliej

So today I decided to put the Smart Grinder through a bit of a stress test. I'm giving my old cubika plus and some bits and pieces to a mate for Xmas and the beans I had ordered to go with it for him came as beans not as espresso ground, he hasn't got a grinder yet, so they needed grinding and as I had the RR55 dialled in nicely for the James Gourmet DSOL beans didn't want to use that. I set the dial on the Smart to around 6 clicks from finest as the Cubika has pressurised portafilters and set the amount to max and let it run 3 times with 10 minutes between repeats, then when the 1st 250g bag was done I left it for an hour as I had other things to do then repeated the procedure, after the 2nd set of 3 on each time it started to smell a bit of warm electronics. Once finished with both bags I left it for another 20 minutes and then dismantled it to clean it out only to discover both burrs were pretty hot to touch so god knows what that's doing to the coffee, but it doesn't give me a lot of faith in the grinder. I realise that this test is probably a world away from real life use but was a good measure of how well it may cope long term. I have done the same thing for another friend previously and ground him a 250g bag using the RR55 and I just kept on with double shot grind after double shot grind until the bag was done leaving hardly any time between button presses and it didn't miss a beat, or smell funny and the buurs were still pretty cool to touch as well , this was during some very hot weather too. I didn't manage to get the Smart to stall tho, but mention has been made on other forums of it having some sort of clutch mechanism to stop it seizing or grinding a foreign object. I also wonder about the longevity of the upper burr carrier, will try and take some photos to illustrate what I'm on about.


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## garydyke1

Ive added the shims to the one I have . The grinder makes an awful noise when close to the finest setting and it smells like the burrs are grinding each other! Suspect it will grind fine enough now for espresso.

Not put any beans thru, other than for brewed coffee and its not great for that, too many fines, probably worse than the Porlex.


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## Charliej

So I thought it might be time to revive this thread, continuing the theme from the one where Marian couldn't get good results from a Sage, here's one I made earlier 20.3g of Roberts Burundi Murama into 32g in 35 seconds with 3 seconds preinfusion at 57%, one before the milk and one with:

  

2014-01-09 17.03.20 by charliejeal, on Flickr

  

2014-01-09 17.06.13 by charliejeal, on Flickr


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## jeebsy

I wasn't the results as such, just the body of the shot.


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## Charliej

jeebsy said:


> I wasn't the results as such, just the body of the shot.


I.e. couldn't get the results they seemed to want, as myself and Gary have been saying you can get more body and mouthfeel but you have to learn how to finesse the parameters to get the results and she never even mentioned if she had tried modifying any settings.


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## jeebsy

Gary seemed to suggest there was more body with the Brewtus but whether that's worth changing machine for is all down to personal preference.


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## garydyke1

Where have Jeebsy's posts gone? Do we still have bugs


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## Charliej

jeebsy said:


> Gary seemed to suggest there was more body with the Brewtus but whether that's worth changing machine for is all down to personal preference.


If you reread Gary said that there wasn't a lot in it though with the body of the shot after some further playing with the Sage.


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