# Am I about to commit a coffee sin?



## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

Due to other commitments I am a fair way off been able to go and buy the rocket apparrtamento and ceado grinder I want for a home set up. Probably looking more towards Xmas.

In the mean time I am getting fed up of having to travel to the city centre for an acceptable cup of coffee.

I am now looking for a cheaper home set up good enough to produce coffee I will enjoy. Problem is I don't like black coffee. I've tried pour over (kalita wave) and even a cold brew. I find black coffee has an acidic after taste, there's just something there I dislike.

So my plan is to get a hand grinder, combine it with my aeropress, maybe a v60 or something down the line, and some quality fresh beans. Now here's the sin... I am going to mix it with milk!

Question is has anyone done this? What was the resulting drink like?


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## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

As you dislike the acidic taste, then Aeropress seems to be entirely logical, I'd suggest you stick with paper filters in that case (more likely to take out oils which lead to acidic nature).

I used to use my Aeropress to make what was effectively a white americano, i.e a white coffee. Hand grinding on Aeropress will not be as bad as for an espresso machine but they even now suggest using espresso grind, so be prepared to spend a bit of time grinding.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Have you tired a good even roasted Brazilian as black filter ?


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Nothing wrong with that at all, even to putting sugar in if you wish. Everyone's tastes are different.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

A v60 might not hold up with milk in it . French press or aeropress might work better.

Again overly " acidic " coffee and milk don't always work either . So perhaps try and get as close as you can with choice of Beans and brew method before adding milk .


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Many times I think the same... Maybe a Moka Pot and milk... But... Just milk? I think that's the Achilles heal... Just straight milk on top of coffee certainly does not flow my boat. For me, milk must be texturised, microfoam.

I once looked at those Bellman 125 stove top steamers. After watching a video, I have ruled that out very quickly.

Sorry to be pessimistic, but, if you enjoy texturised milk, I don't think there is a good alternative to a entry level or above espresso machine.

What about a second hand Gaggia Classic and a hand grinder? If you don't mind hand grinding that is, as the novelty can run out pretty quickly when yougrinding fine. That in my opinion is better choice than the ones you proposed.

Depending on your budget, you can get a better setup.


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Have you tired a good even roasted Brazilian as black filter ?


I can't remember what it was, but it was high quality and made by a very good barista


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Many times I think the same... Maybe a Moka Pot and milk... But... Just milk? I think that's the Achilles heal... Just straight milk on top of coffee certainly does not flow my boat. For me, milk must be texturised, microfoam.
> 
> I once looked at those Bellman 125 stove top steamers. After watching a video, I have ruled that out very quickly.
> 
> ...


I do love a good microfoam. As for a cheaper home set up, I've been there and done that and realised I'm probably not going to get the results I want without a quality grinder and machine. I'm willing to be patient on that front.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

We used an A/p when we went on a few day trips a couple of years back and knew we wouldn't find any coffee. Took a flask of hot milk (whole, blue top) along with the flask of hot water. Used a Porlex grinder! Honestly, it was pretty good. Ok it wasn't textured milk, I know . . . But it set us up for the day at the time, I seem to recall.

That will be such an inexpensive option for you it's surely worth a try.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

There are coffees out there that are less " acidic " due to organ and roast style . Get something Brazilian - dark roasted try that black in a French press .

As it's been said horses for course I love sweetness and a juicy acidity in balance ...


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

I will continue to experiment with black coffee, if I can get a decent drink from an aeropress I will.be very happy. One of my favourite coffee shops sell this grinder:

https://www.upshotespresso.co.uk/collections/brewing-equipment/products/hand-grinder

Not much info there but I trust they would not sell crap.

So plan is combine that with my aeropress and a bit of milk, jobs a good one.

As for French press, I own one but I've heard they are very messy.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

No idea about that grinder - unsure if it will be any better than the cheaper Harios. @MWJB recognise it ?

French press isn't what I would call

Messy - it's water and coffee . To get the sweeter brews though you need to be steeping em for 10 mins plus


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> No idea about that grinder - unsure if it will be any better than the cheaper Harios. @MWJB recognise it ?
> 
> French press isn't what I would call
> 
> Messy - it's water and coffee . To get the sweeter brews though you need to be steeping em for 10 mins plus


Never seen that Kalita grinder before. It would have to be pretty dreadful to not work acceptably, if it's up to Porlex/Rhino/Hario standards you shouldn't have any worries.


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Never seen that Kalita grinder before. It would have to be pretty dreadful to not work acceptably, if it's up to Porlex/Rhino/Hario standards you shouldn't have any worries.


Upshot wouldn't sell crap, that I have no doubt. They are true coffee nuts.

I may have to buy it and see what I can do with it. If I still can't get into manually brewed coffee then I will sell the grinder on here.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

If the issue is texturing the milk with no machine then use a french press style "frother" maybe


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Benjijames28 said:


> Upshot wouldn't sell crap, that I have no doubt. They are true coffee nuts.
> 
> I may have to buy it and see what I can do with it. If I still can't get into manually brewed coffee then I will sell the grinder on here.


Ask em to try and help you get to brewed coffee without using milk...

French press and aeropress gainsay take a little milk , but will dilute taste of the coffee immensely, Chemex , V60 i really wouldn't bother .


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

What coffee do you actually like? Where do you go in the city to get "an acceptable" coffee and what do you order.

Maybe you don't like coffee?


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

OP likes milk in his coffee as probably the vast majority of coffee drinkers do.

Milk is primarily a sweetener used to mask bitterness. It can take a period of adjustment for the palate to adapt to black coffee if you have always added milk.

My first AP experience was in a good coffee shop (Papercup in Glasgow) where i ordered a Kenyan and milk. The Barista gently explained when he brought the coffee that i should let it cool a little and taste before adding milk and by all means add the milk if it wasn't to my liking. Needless to say, I couldn't believe how sweet it was.

My tuppence to the OP would be to buy medium to dark roasted coffee with no acidity and steep it in the AP for 20mins or more before pressing. Taste without milk . Add milk if not satisfied. You should pick up a lot of sweetness. Ask the coffee shop what beans they are using that you liked as a flat white and see if you can get some to take home?


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

If I were the OP, and working on the basis that a) he likes coffee based milk drinks e.g cappuccino, latte, flat whites

b) he wants to buy another espresso set-up when he can afford it

c) he's prepared to experiment with beans and grinds using an AP and see if he can develop a taste for quality brewed black coffee

I would:

1. Not buy the hand grinder he has his eyes on which so far is unproven. If he's experimenting with drinks, hand grinding will become a big pita which will end up putting him off

2. Buy the Eureka that our very own @dfk41 is selling which looks great and will be great for brewed and espresso alike https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?38380-Eureka-Mignon-in-Black-%A3180-plus-delivery

3. Watch a couple of quality videos on how to use V60, Aeropress and French Press - I'd suggest Tim Wendelboe and Chris Baca. Follow one recipe to the letter and then start tweaking to get the results you're looking for.

4. Go for a weaker brew ratio to start with and build up according to your own personal taste. So for a 250ml aeropress start with 13g of coffee. See what you think to the flavour. Use something like Barista Hustle Coffee Compass to assess your brew and to make changes.

5. If you really prefer your coffee with foamed/frothed milk consider a milk frother. On the rare occasions I want milk with my coffee I use one of these:http://www.anothercoffee.co.uk/products/item116103.aspx

Works well for me. Best method is to froth cold milk in the frother then transfer to a jug which you stick in the microwave for 30-40 secs. Then add to coffee. Not as good as steamed but at around £10-£15 it produces a good substitute

6. For special treats you could make a cortado condensado. I first tried these when I was living in Gran Canaria - they are popular throughout the canaries, probably because the style of coffee in the canaries to my palate seems very bitter. It's a shot of espresso with an equal measure of condensed milk poured through it. A shot from a moka pot with an equal amount of condensed milk poured through works just as well, as would a concentrated shot from an AP. Here's one I made earlier - just give it a light stir before you drink it and aim to leave some of the condensed milk undisturbed at the bottom of the glass for your final slug.









Add a slug of rum, or spirit of choice for a carajillo condensado&#8230;


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

salty said:


> 1. Not buy the hand grinder he has his eyes on which so far is unproven. If he's experimenting with drinks hand grinding will become a big pita which will end up putting him off.


Even if @Benjijames28 does want to grind for espresso, he won't want to disturb settings on the occasions he might like a brewed coffee. Bearing that in mind, I don't see any great risk in buying the grinder he has seen, grinding single doses for brewed (coarser than espresso & quicker) should only take about 80seconds max, far less time than the kettle takes to boil & far less risk of getting a bad brew as, when reasonably dialled in, brewed isn't as sensitive to grind as espresso.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

I would add that the same Medium-dark degree of roast will give good, not bitter, results as a cold brew. At work I tend to have 2 or 3 mugs per day of cold brew enough to cover the bowl of the spoon topped off with water from the kettle.

The result is coffee that is flavoursome, very clean tasting, neither notably acidic nor bitter and at a temperature that is drinkable but could benefit from 5 minutes wait before you do.

The above observation based on Coffee Compass mystery coffee (the last iteration not the current one which I have on order)


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## hippy_dude (Sep 22, 2015)

Benjijames28 said:


> I do love a good microfoam. As for a cheaper home set up, I've been there and done that and realised I'm probably not going to get the results I want without a quality grinder and machine. I'm willing to be patient on that front.


You can get those individual milk steamers that are designed for nespresso 'enthusiasts' that are just like an half an espresso machine just with everything except the steam wand cut off.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

hippy_dude said:


> You can get those individual milk steamers that are designed for nespresso 'enthusiasts' that are just like an half an espresso machine just with everything except the steam wand cut off.


But make sure that is what you are buying. Lots are a jug that swirls and heats rather than a steam wand. But if you want "it makes foamy milk at the touch of a button" rather than latte art level of milk foam then you will be fine (it's foamy not bubble, and not actually bad)


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Missy said:


> But make sure that is what you are buying. Lots are a jug that swirls and heats rather than a steam wand. But if you want "it makes foamy milk at the touch of a button" rather than latte art level of milk foam then you will be fine (it's foamy not bubble, and not actually bad)


We used to have a Dualit one, better than the aeroccino (which broke after six months). Foam is pretty good for cappuccinos. Not good for latte art.


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

Sounds too much messing about. I would like to get a hand grinder, some beans, use my aeropress, play with ratios etc... And find a method I enjoy with a bit of cold milk. Yeah it won't have texture but long as it tastes good I will drink it

Now what hand grinder do I go for?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Benjijames28 said:


> Sounds too much messing about. I would like to get a hand grinder, some beans, use my aeropress, play with ratios etc... And find a method I enjoy with a bit of cold milk. Yeah it won't have texture but long as it tastes good I will drink it
> 
> Now what hand grinder do I go for?


Thought you were getting the Kalita from Upshot?


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Thought you were getting the Kalita from Upshot?


Not going there until Friday.

I went to foundry today and noticed they had a grinder made by cafe de tiamo that's 30 quid.


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

As a previous Kalita KH-3 owner I can attest to the quality. Really well built and great grind capability, definitely good value for the price.


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

I have been advised to go for a made by knock feldgrind. Apparently the best hand grinder around.

This is all good but you can't buy them! Such a popular product and they can't keep stock levels up. Ridiculous really.

I've tried the manufacturer who doesn't respond to emails, and every listed retailer on their site.

Frustrating. Most companies can't wait to take your money.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Benjijames28 said:


> I have been advised to go for a made by knock feldgrind. Apparently the best hand grinder around.
> 
> This is all good but you can't buy them! Such a popular product and they can't keep stock levels up. Ridiculous really.
> 
> ...


I paid £130 for my Feldgrind because I wanted to take it to work and on holiday. You can get a Wilfa Svart for just over £100. If it's for aeropress then maybe this is your best bet. Unless you want to carry it around or want to do espresso (the Feldgrind can do this level of grind).


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Benjijames28 said:


> I have been advised to go for a made by knock feldgrind. Apparently the best hand grinder around.
> 
> This is all good but you can't buy them! Such a popular product and they can't keep stock levels up. Ridiculous really.
> 
> ...


Feldgrind is a joy to use, but it's not your only option for a handgrinder, if you are spending over £100 try the Lido E/ET from Coffee Hit.


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

lake_m said:


> I paid £130 for my Feldgrind because I wanted to take it to work and on holiday. You can get a Wilfa Svart for just over £100. If it's for aeropress then maybe this is your best bet. Unless you want to carry it around or want to do espresso (the Feldgrind can do this level of grind).


I would prefer the feldgrind as it seems more versatile. If I'm only getting a hand grinder I might as well get the best one going?

I will be using it for aeropress maybe other manual brewing methods.

I am been really Mardy this morning lol.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Benjijames28 said:


> I would prefer the feldgrind as it seems more versatile. If I'm only getting a hand grinder I might as well get the best one going?
> 
> I will be using it for aeropress maybe other manual brewing methods.
> 
> I am been really Mardy this morning lol.


What makes the Feldgrind 'best'? The Lido E/ET will work for the same brew methods, it's just a little bigger & bulkier.

I have both, I use them alternately, I couldn't determine which was better. Adjustment is a little easier on the Feldgrind, Lido is easier to fill with beans due to a wider mouth to the hopper (I use a little jam funnel with the Feldgrind, but you can put the beans in the catch cup & transfer to the hopper too).


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

MWJB said:


> What makes the Feldgrind 'best'? The Lido E/ET will work for the same brew methods, it's just a little bigger & bulkier.
> 
> I have both, I use them alternately, I couldn't determine which was better. Adjustment is a little easier on the Feldgrind, Lido is easier to fill with beans due to a wider mouth to the hopper (I use a little jam funnel with the Feldgrind, but you can put the beans in the catch cup & transfer to the hopper too).


Well I don't know which is best, but if it's comparable with the lido yet over 50 pounds cheaper... It's certainly the better buy?


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Feldgrind is one of the best


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

Stanic said:


> Feldgrind is one of the best


Now to get my hands on one lol. I also like that it's a British company.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Will you just get a grinder. Now!


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

MildredM said:


> Will you just get a grinder. Now!


Lol


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

MildredM said:


> Will you just get a grinder. Now!


Best post ever!


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

MildredM said:


> Will you just get a grinder. Now!


Yes mum. Lol


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

Still no reply from my email to made by knock. How rude. I only asked them when they expecting more stock.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Benjijames28 said:


> Still no reply from my email to made by knock. How rude. I only asked them when they expecting more stock.


There can't be much flesh left on the dead horse you are flogging, if you can't buy a feldgrind from a reseller then buy something else. Feldgrind is a lovely grinder to use, but it's far from an only option.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

MBK are infamous for their lack of customer service. Check the threads in the grinder sub forum. Don't expect an answer within the next decade!


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Benjijames28 said:


> Still no reply from my email to made by knock. How rude. I only asked them when they expecting more stock.


you need luck to get a grinder from them or second hand here..they are superb though

I got the factory second Feldgrind thanks to monitoring the forum


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Benjijames28 said:


> Still no reply from my email to made by knock. How rude. I only asked them when they expecting more stock.


Par for the course . If the resellers dont have em , then I'd pass and but any of the other alternatives mentioned, but both Machima - Brew Lab and Harvey Nichols are all out of stock of the moment .


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

Seems like they make good grinders but are terrible at business!

They can't meet supply for what will be a relatively small demand (let's face it the demand for home coffee hand grinders is not huge), and they can't even be bothered to respond to potential customers.


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

Peter/MBK collected, repaired and returned my feldgrind when it was broken all free of charge. Just saying this not to defend the bad experiences people have had but to provide a bit of contrast to the flogging he gets.


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## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

Think it is little unfair to have yet another thread kicking down on MBK.

There is more than enough forum knowledge about delayed responses etc...but I dont actually remember anyone NOT getting what they paid for. I placed three different orders and got all things I ordered (plus extras).

If you want one, put your money where your mouth is, MBK is pretty much a one man show providing top class products, albeit in a timeframe not expected by the modern day consumer.

I suspect he does not have a PR machine to immediately advise on various questions such as yours. But once again I would say, if you want to buy MBK, be patient, you will get what you pay for.


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

Customers would not need to ask when stock was due if he just put a rough time frame on his website like most business's do.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Benjijames28 said:


> Customers would not need to ask when stock was due if he just put a rough time frame on his website like most business's do.


Buy a different grinder ... I am not trying to be rude , but there are hundreds of posts on the Made By Knock Thread re service levels and customer feedback , that he has not chosen to reply to you is of little supprise, to most. His products are great , his communication and service erratic. This thread turning into another discussion re MBK, it just isn't needed. Pay your money takes your choices .. plenty of other options out there .

All of the suggestions you make about how he can be better etc , have been made before, and not been adopted. Nothing you say will change this ( as the hundred of other comments on here have not ) ... So He hasn't replied , you don't know when or of the grinders are gonna be available again .

So His communication is poor, you can now choose to order or not order.... f you are that desperate to have one , start a wanted thread on here .

So on a more positive note, what are you going to get now ?


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

The Comandante C40 is supposed to be a really good hand grinder based on reviews and forum tattle - (and Tim Wendelboe uses one). About £60 more than a Feldgrind. ........And it's available to buy now.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Not sure I see the point in buying a top of the range hand grinder for medium/dark brews then sloshing the brew with milk. Something much cheaper like a Porlex would be more than adequate I would suggest (and obtainable)


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> There are coffees out there that are less " acidic " due to organ and roast style . Get something Brazilian - dark roasted try that black in a French press .
> 
> As it's been said horses for course I love sweetness and a juicy acidity in balance ...


I don't disagree. Just trying to move the thread away from the Feldgrind and throw some alternatives out there.


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Buy a different grinder ... I am not trying to be rude , but there are hundreds of posts on the Made By Knock Thread re service levels and customer feedback , that he has not chosen to reply to you is of little supprise, to most. His products are great , his communication and service erratic. This thread turning into another discussion re MBK, it just isn't needed. Pay your money takes your choices .. plenty of other options out there .
> 
> All of the suggestions you make about how he can be better etc , have been made before, and not been adopted. Nothing you say will change this ( as the hundred of other comments on here have not ) ... So He hasn't replied , you don't know when or of the grinders are gonna be available again .
> 
> ...


Fair enough. I've not read any threads about the company or its products, I'm relatively new here.

As for what else to get I don't know. Lido 3 looks great.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

there are also the Kinu M38, M47 and M68 options


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