# Espresso Machines, great but..



## ~ Sea Chief ~ (Sep 20, 2011)

..almost all my coffees taste almost identical in my Gaggia Classic. That is to say really pretty good, very good in fact in comparison to my mokapot, but, unlike my mokapot, there's very little difference in taste from one coffee bean to the next: for eg Ive just used some expensive Monmouth espresso beans and the shot tasted no different at all to my std fayre/ most days/ co-op cheapo espresso beans.. and these no different to shots from other beans either even if a milder roast: all taste consistantly good, same crema. I am talking cappucino/ 1/3rd milk ish so there's obviously going to be more similarity than a neat shot comparison.. but even so Im a bit bemused. Fine really for me as I cant afford megabucks coffee- but on the occasion I do get a special bag, it tastes no different at all, and as for comparing one coffee v another its a completely pointless exercise. Any ideas?

Chief


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Are you drinking darker roasts?


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I always smell the aroma coming off the grinder after freshly grinding before pulling a shot.

Mostly the resulting shot relates to that aroma.

Drinking mostly single origins I would say no two taste the same or even similar.

For cappuccinos you need a coffee with great sweetness. My personal favourite in milk is fazenda cachoeira de grama 2012 from Has Bean purely for the sweetness.

Also think about upgrading your grinder


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

"...Any ideas?"

Keep drinking the cheapo beans. If they are pretty good to very good & what you can afford, live a contented life. 

Whether or not there IS a difference & room for improvement, if you cannot taste a difference..it's pretty moot at the end of the day. Note that I did not assume that there was "no difference", but if you are satisfied & not looking to find something that is currently missing, nor eliminate a characteristic that you don't like, it can be difficult to identify what "better" actually is, when your expectations are already being met.

So much so, that I kind of dread to enquire as to whether you are making a cup each, of both types, simultaneously (or as simultaneously as is possible), then doing a side by side, A/B comparison (possibly cleansing the palate between samples), to highlight any positive/negative characteristicsattributable to either? ...Damn! Did I type that out loud? No, stop, forget I said anything....contentment is underrated, feel free to enjoy it ;-)


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

Buy a quarter of Hasbean single origin and a quarter of a full roast espresso blend. If you don't notice the difference, drink the cheapest coffee you can find!


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## golden1 (Jan 21, 2012)

Find somewhere that sells a Lot of different kinds of bean. Local Coffee house, indi roasters, Twinnings Tea shop, hell, if you have a Booths nearby and dont mind breaking one of the cardinal rules of buying fresh coffee (if it's for sale in the supermarket, and there's not a suspicious coffee roaster shaped object out back, dont buy it)

now sniff all of them. Pick two that are as different as can be.

one of these will be labeled "Espresso" or "black" or "French roast". The other will probably be either Columbian or Brazilian in origin. (in all likelyhood however both probably came from Vietnam)

Compare back to back shots of each of these.

Also, Whilst you're at it, try pulling a shot the instant the boiler light goes off. Then try running water thru the system till it comes on, then pulling a second one.

I dont know about the Classic, but my old evolution would produce the deepest richest flavours when the boiler light had just come on, and would make a cup of warm mud when it was "at temperature".

Oh. any you may want to consider that in much of Arabia (and other places where Bonkers strong coffee is served) that it's traditional to take a sip of cold water before every sip of the coffee, to "clean the palate".

.

one final thing. When was the last time the classic was cleaned? Not just wiped with a cloth, but backflushed/descaled ?


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## ~ Sea Chief ~ (Sep 20, 2011)

Do you think the grinder has anything to do with it? I mean, obviously Im not using a 'coptor piece of cr*p grinder, nor am I getting an animal to go round and round a thing with a thing attatched to it (Im working on a plan).. but I am using a lowly cheapo burr grinder, one which is completely useless unless I grind the beans twice/ most often 3x simply as its finest setting is dreadful, ie simply too course: Once gound thrice say I find the 'sweet spot' regularly and pull a rich tasty shot with plenty of crema (decent enough that Id be perfectly happy with in a coffee-shop/ really quite a decent standard- so Im far from grumping here at all). I also tried, as a test, a bag of freshly roasted espresso beans from a local good wholesale coffee supplier -ground especially- for me in their xyz grinder (assumption: a pro quality grinder/ or as good as most of yous posh lot lot on here like innit;-) and the result....... exactly the same as my grinder/ no different whatosever, and again a shot tasting barely any different to all the others I mention.

I try beans on a regular basis: dark/ espresso both high quality (monmouth for eg) and s'market 'good'.. medium/dark 'finest' s'market.. and through to Yirgechaffe/ medium Monmouth again. All taste almost identical, all have same consistancy, all same crema. I may as well stick to s'market £3. I am a bit bored of it mind.

Classic cleaned recently, proper service inc backflush, fine bill of health. I wonder whether the Classic is a bit of a dullard? I'll get my coat.. where is it-quick!


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

I esuspect grinding the beans three times may be beating the shit out of them. Coffee's pretty delicate - perhaps that's why all the flavour is going. At least you're getting consistent results though!


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

I might be wrong but personally I think the grinder is the problem. I know you bought beans and had them ground for you, but the key there is that there would likely have been a few hours between grinding and brewing and that there's no scope for adjustment. You'll see most of us talk about tweaking grind settings, but there's no adjusting if you're relying on putting the beans through three times to get it in the ballpark.

I'm not saying go out and buy an mdf or an mc2 but I think you're definitely limiting what you can achieve with your current setup.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Didn't I say the grinder. Now 100% sure the grinder is the problem

Chimp is selling his virtuoso for £120.

Not a bad option at all. Look is for sale section.


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## JohnnieWalker (Aug 24, 2011)

Sea Chief, I assume you've not got a pressurised basket?

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## ~ Sea Chief ~ (Sep 20, 2011)

Ok thanks fellas.. I'll consider the grinder option, as I cant see there being much else to consider, but even £120 seems absolutely stark raving bonkers, and Im not convinced at all yet that such a beastie would make any difference to mine (bar having to grind once as oppose my my thrice). Id need some pretty serious eg's 1st.

Ill scour ebay for an oldie as I cant possibly justify spending £100+ on a flamin bean grinder.. thats as daft as women spending £400 on a pair of shoes imo. I have seen gaggia MM types, I assume having gaggia on them they will at least grind down fine enough for a Classic, but they look as cheapo-chinese made as mine: true or are they capable?


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## ~ Sea Chief ~ (Sep 20, 2011)

JohnnieWalker said:


> Sea Chief, I assume you've not got a pressurised basket?
> 
> ---
> 
> ...


No, afair I dont have as I took the rubber widget thingy out as the concept seemed a bit absurd/ didnt sit well with me ie I had ideas of exploding messes etc which woudnt subside. So ditched the rubberjohnny so I use just the heavy brass(?) P'filter with a metal basket in it.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Sea Chief I think you need to take a long hard look in the mirror and realise that a Mazzer Robur E is your only chance of success.

All the best









(Also consider a porlex hand grinder @£30, more than capable of espresso grind).


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

LoL Fatboy!







(excuse the acronym)


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## Django (Mar 6, 2012)

I'll second that. Grab youself a porlex!


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## ~ Sea Chief ~ (Sep 20, 2011)

I couldnt face hand grinding at all.. after a hard days' work its the very last thing Id want to do/ or 1st thing AM either.

Gave the Classic a thoughragh backflush.. still cant taste any difference one coffee to another. The biggest variable is the compression/ time takes for pour ie longer like 35secs is richer, 20 secs weaker and there the difference in taste is quite obvious; but apart from that all beans taste indistinguishable from one another.


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## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

So you don't want to spend money

Don't want to hand grind

Anything else

...shall i just pop round and make it for you?









Seriously. This espresso lark is not easy and requires some investment. Don't make the mistake i made of buying the machine and then scrimping on the grinder.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The porlex is a very good grinder...but if it's your only option you might well develop a taste for single shots! ;-) Crank, crank, crank, bleedin' crank... Fine as part of "the ritual" but a bind for a quick cup in the morning.

Stop, rewind: does Sea Chief really have an identifiable "problem". Does he have a "go/no go" situation - gushers, chokers, obvious over or under extraction, is he throwing 4 cups down the sink for every one, non-toxic cup he drinks? No.

He is just saying that he is not finding a significant difference in flavours from one bean to the next (in milky coffees, as stated in the early posts). He seems generally satisfied with the coffee he produces. The grinder issue does seem on the surface to be a concern (would be good to eliminate it from enquiries), but he has tried a local grinder too & would seem to be achieving on par results.

I have to admit to being slightly envious of his position..."doesn't matter how I do it, what beans I use, it all tastes pretty good". It's very possible that someone with a specific idea of what they are looking for might well identify shortfalls from one bean to the next, but is Sea Chief that person?

Sea Chief - Are you making simultaneous cups, with different beans and tasting them back to back, palate cleansing between tastings? Quite often when sensory testing, A/B comparisons are very helpful (often essential actually). You need quite distinct flavour notes to compare "flavour A" on a Tuesday to "flavour B" on a Wednesday, smells hang in the memory a long time, flavours, sights & sounds...not so much...in fact sounds really need to be compared within seconds.

Do you have a stent/similar cardiovascular conditions? How are your senses of smell and taste with other foodstuffs? How does the coffee taste at the place that did your grind for you?

As I see it, you have a cheap & plentiful supply of coffee that you think is "pretty good"...you are pretty content, there is undoubtedly room for improvement (perhaps describe what that might be from your perspective), but make a judgement call, how much do you need to punish yourself?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Here's a random thought, for diagnostic purposes...

Buy some ESE pods from Fairfax or Sarah's Coffee (Espressione) - What differences do you percieve in your Cappucinos? (Grind, tamp & dose are fixed, eliminating variables...excepting extraction volume).


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Someone mention my name









At first you think it's crazy to spend so much on a grinder but as soon as you use one you realise it's money well spent. Honestly! The build quality, the difference it makes to you coffee, the look of them, the longevity. You're investing in a serious bit of kit that you're going to use every day for 10+years. When you spread it out like that the cost is pittance.

I'm about to spend £330 on a grinder


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

I second that. I've no regrets on forking out a load for a grinder.


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## Django (Mar 6, 2012)

~ Sea Chief ~ said:


> I couldnt face hand grinding at all.. after a hard days' work its the very last thing Id want to do/ or 1st thing AM either.
> 
> Gave the Classic a thoughragh backflush.. still cant taste any difference one coffee to another. The biggest variable is the compression/ time takes for pour ie longer like 35secs is richer, 20 secs weaker and there the difference in taste is quite obvious; but apart from that all beans taste indistinguishable from one another.


It really doesn't take that long and is minimal effort. Tis up to you, man, but somewhere along the line you will need to raise your game in the search for good coffee. Without well-ground beans, as I have learnt the hard way, you cannot make good coffee.


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## ~ Sea Chief ~ (Sep 20, 2011)

No I don't have a stent MJWB! good explaining for me there tho/ much sense.

All Im saying is I found my mokapot easy as pie to distinguish bean A from bean B, the taste comparison was always part of the process I enjoyed & I could nail exactly the bag I preferred and the subtleties between A to B.

Not so the Gaggia at all, each bag being pretty much the same -albeit no doubting the quality of the shot is far better in the Gaggia to the M'pot (& therefore 'well just ditch the gaggia and use the M'pot then' is irrelevant, I couldn't go back to it). I was hardy using even a burr grinder but a 'coptor bean-nasty for the M'pot.. so I'll be buggered to be convinced a £100+ grinder will make but a fart of difference.. but unless I try/ borrow one I cant rule it out. Oh well- good cups I get, so I guess I stick here.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

~ Sea Chief ~ said:


> so I'll be buggered to be convinced a £100+ grinder will make but a fart of difference.. but unless I try/ borrow one I cant rule it out. Oh well- good cups I get, so I guess I stick here.


Haha! How many times have we heard this guys?

It's amazing the attitude a lot of people come here with. You will learn young padawan... you will learn


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## ~ Sea Chief ~ (Sep 20, 2011)

Im sure you've heard that bit before, but always being superseeded with.. 'b.. b.. guys my shots taste crap with my espresso machine and crap grinder & I dunno why..' not me/ not at all.

My shots taste fine enough.. just no different one from another. I cannot see how a better grind consistancy (for that would be the only difference between a 'good' espresso grinder and a 'bad' espresso grinder) will do anything to eleviate the similarity between A and B bar raise the taste std a fraction overall (NOT neccessary, the std is plenty high enough for me).. unless there is magic involved, or a bean grinder god that Im not aware of and I have to leave offerings to, probably sexual too/& Im not having any of that.


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## JohnnieWalker (Aug 24, 2011)

I would imagine that the way the beans are ground does matter.

In the same way that a blade grinder just rips the beans apart and gets them too heated, a better grinder that has good burr blades can grind the beans consistently, finely and without heating the beans too much as better grinders have larger blades and use a slower speed.

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## JohnnieWalker (Aug 24, 2011)

Sea Chief, have a read of this:

http://skeltoac.com/2008/03/04/saeco-titan-burr-grinder-review/

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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

~ Sea Chief ~ said:


> My shots taste fine enough.. just no different one from another.


Yet still you're not going to take advice from a group of people who have great tasting shots and have no problem distinguishing between different coffees? OK, have it your way.









Do you think we're all on the pay roll of grinder companies or something? Most have learnt the hard way that crap grinders just don't cut it in the world of coffee. End of.









I will say one last thing before I leave this thread. Have you tried making your shots into Americanos? You can tell a lot about a coffee when it's diluted a bit. Try this with a few different coffees and see if you're distinctions come back.









Here's the guys review of the Virtuoso (the 2nd part of the link above) http://skeltoac.com/2008/03/12/baratza-virtuoso-burr-grinder-review/


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## ~ Sea Chief ~ (Sep 20, 2011)

Look.. I aint saying a better grinder wont make a better shot- I can see quite clearly that by all accounts it will make a (marginal to most/ huge to those who have spent £150+, of course) difference overall.

My grinder in fact DOES cut it in the world of coffee.. and it cost £20.. as it makes me a fine shot time after time.

BUT they all taste ~ the same: a better grinder cannot make them taste different...................... just both a bit better. Now you may be able to see Im not simply in the 'durr.. a crap grinder/ whaddya expect?' catagory (in fact Im dissing that theory somewhat).

For eg, I have just ground (again/ down to espresso-fine) some co-op ground coffee, not beans, a bag of ground coffee! bog std £3 stuff too (cos I live in the stix/ only coffee about). Prior to this Id just finished some Monmouth espresso beans. The cuppa Ive just now had is the bottom of my grinder 'tub' ie least fresh, & it is BETTER than any of the Monmouth shots, by a fraction, prob cos it was one of those shots one gets 'spot on' nowt more than that. But overall the taste was only a mite different between the two, if distinguishable at all. Both really decent. In a blind taste it'd be 50/50. Not sh*t Sherlock: 50/50. And Ive been a coffeee beano for a good 15 yrs, albeit a la french press or Mokapot.

In a fancy-pnts grinder it'd be 50/50 too.. Its just that the std of both would be (slightly) higher (and therefore not in any way of interest to me at all in this scenario). Sorry but simple logic states this has to be true.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

~ Sea Chief ~ said:


> a better grinder cannot make them taste different


...but that's exactly what it does.

I've always said, don't feel the need to spend a lot of money on kit if you can be content with cheaper stuff, and I think that's where you are. But when doing that you also have to accept that you won't get some of the benefits. A better grind influences the brewing process, creating different chemical reactions, different compounds, acids, oils, sugars etc, ultimately creating different tastes.

It may just be, though, that your olfactory and gustatory system is a bit buggered. I know mine seems to be!


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

A friend of mine has naff all sense of smell and as a result can't taste much unless it's very strong.

If it is not the grinder, you are clearly biologically defective.


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

Just repeating what had been said already, I.e if you're happy then thats fine. However a better grinder will improve the flavour and differentiate coffees more.

The thing that stands out to me is the fact that you're still grinding your coffee 3x before pulling shots aren't you? That can't be good for the coffee in terms of heat exposure. Could it be that your grinding process is diminishing the flavours of the beans you're using and bring them all down to a 'meh' level and none of them get the chance to stand out from the crowd?!

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk


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## JohnnieWalker (Aug 24, 2011)

Sea Chief, what do you mean by "grinder tub"?

Aren't you grinding on demand?

Ideally you would have a good grinder, use fresh beans and grind them to the correct consistency just before you use them, if you're missing one of these steps or all of them then you'll never get a good espresso.

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## JohnnieWalker (Aug 24, 2011)

Oh yeah, you need to be using the correct amount of beans as well! So that's 4 steps!

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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

~ Sea Chief ~ said:


> Look.. I aint saying a better grinder wont make a better shot


Exactly, you agree it will but you refuse to accept it because you don't think it's ok to justify that much money. It depends where your priorities lie. If you want better coffee you have to invest in it. You're just not going to get it from inadequate equipment.



~ Sea Chief ~ said:


> BUT they all taste ~ the same: a better grinder cannot make them taste different


Oh but it can. It will improve the good coffee and bring out a lot of flavours and qualities that is missing with a bad grind. Whereas your crappy coffee probably won't be improved so much.



~ Sea Chief ~ said:


> a crap grinder/ whaddya expect?' catagory
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Spooks (Feb 20, 2012)

As a new(ish) espresso home user I can say whole heartedly that it's your grinder. Had a blade grinder that I could get to an espresso grind and it worked no worries, I was happy as I was getting similar results to Starbucks, then I realised what real espresso should be like.

Quickly bought a second hand MC2 and amazed at the difference, new machine and I'm in heaven. Even as a newbie I can tell the differences between beans/roasts and my wife with a poor sense of taste can easily tell me when I try another bean, there was no chance before we got our new grinder & machine. I understand you have a good machine so I have to agree with what's being said, new grinder will make the world of difference.

There is no real way to avoid it but some expense is needed in the quest of good espresso, how much expense depends on how far your willing to go. If your happy at the mo, superb but it sounds like your not so search the for sale ads and buy a cheaper grinder, if it makes no difference for you ( and I'd eat my hat if it didn't) then you sell it on and loose nothing.

Anyways that's my rambling over


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## ~ Sea Chief ~ (Sep 20, 2011)

You're not reading/ listening to a word Im saying, but merely making common assumptions and misquoting me. I said a better grinder -will- no doubt make a better cup.. and you lift 'BUT they all taste ~ the same: a better grinder cannot make them taste different' completely out of context in order to satisfy a rather laboured point now, one which has absolutely no bearing on what Im talking about.

Ive been a coffee nut for 15yrs, I can taste when a bean is fresh easily, I can taste the minutiae of notes to flavours from one bean to another (so my taste buds are fine thanks) in a french press, or mokapot that is.. but not in my gaggia. That's not to say it makes an inferior coffee to these, far from it, it makes a far better shot no question.. and if I make a shot from a stale pre-ground bag and its comparable to fresh Monmouth beans/ absolute parity/ then Im sorry but the Gaggia Classic aint much kop if you want to explore the coffee you use with it. A bit like a flashy car with the safety buttons.. undoubtadly a better car than my old golf, but is not showing the potential of the car until its boring buttons ae turned off and the car comes alive. My m'pot was a mx5 all corners experienced.. the gaggia is like a big fat bmw undoubtadly a 'better car' but each corner feels the same.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

No I'm sorry but you're missing the point. You think that all coffee will be improved equally with a good grinder. It won't! I'm saying that good coffee will be improved more (much more) with a good grinder whereas you can't do much with crap coffee in the first place. We have a saying in software engineering that we use with customers all the time, "Crap in, crap out".









If you're not tasting the difference when you make good coffee you're not doing it right. End of. Especially, as you point out, that your taste buds are obviously fine as you can taste differences using other brew methods. Maybe you're just too used to drinking coffee using these other methods and have yet to develop a taste for espresso?

Anyway, I said a couple of posts ago it was going to be my last comment on the topic so this time I'm really out. As for misquoting you??? I actually used the quote button so that's pretty hard to do.


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## Spooks (Feb 20, 2012)

Soz if I have misinterpreted you, do you have access to another machine, whether it be a Gaggia or not, to compare shot taste? Have you experimented with differing bean weights, ie if overdosing it maybe consistently overpoweringly (is this even a word) bitter?

To use your analogy I understand exactly what you mean but remember you need to learn to drive the car/machine to get the best from it. Unsure if the Gaggia needs to be temperature surfed to get the best outa it, if there any small tips and tricks. Ultimately it may boil down to this machine just is the wrong one for you.

Just a quick thought, I assume your using a non pressurised basket? Newer Classics were supplied with these and frankly they are useless


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

"Just a quick thought, I assume your using a non pressurised basket? Newer Classics were supplied with these and frankly they are useless"

Hi Spooks, the pressurised baskets in the Classic may not be ideal, but they don't make all coffee taste the same.

Sea Chief, as you seem content with your £20 electric grinder, why not fork out for a hand burr grinder (like a Porlex tall, try 2nd & 3rd clicks from "lock up"), to test the water? Yes, for 1st cup of the day/when you're in a hurry it's a bit of a faff (you can still use the "coptor blade" at these times)....but when time is less of an issue you might try hand ground. This may help point you in the direction of what you feel the necessary next step may be.


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