# Orphan Espresso Apex



## slamm (Nov 26, 2016)

Prototype manual grinder with ghost burrs for brew only..


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http://instagr.am/p/BkXPTwQjf3J/


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http://instagr.am/p/BkXXLeCDp9T/

https://dailycoffeenews.com/2018/04/12/orphan-espresso-gives-ghost-burrs-new-life-with-groundbreaking-apex-grinder/


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Looks interesting but as a potential £500 plus ( best guess ) for a hand grinder , hmmm.


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## slamm (Nov 26, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Looks interesting but as a potential £500 plus ( best guess ) for a hand grinder , hmmm.


They say they are aiming around $395. The grind distribution from the ghost type burrs looks interesting, less fines and very little dust. The technology is not new so if this grind distribution is more ideal for brew you have to ask why hasn't it been used much for coffee before. Or maybe it's just different.


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Looks interesting but as a potential £500 plus ( best guess ) for a hand grinder , hmmm.


the article says around 395 dollars so around 300 quid...........still bloody expensive for a brew only hand grinder. looks well engineered though. first time ive heard of ghost burrs.....very interesting.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

slamm said:


> They say they are aiming around $395. The grind distribution from the ghost type burrs looks interesting, less fines and very little dust. The technology is not new so if this grind distribution is more ideal for brew you have to ask why hasn't it been used much for coffee before. Or maybe it's just different.


The grind distribution shows no comparison to any other grinder at a similar setting.

Ghost burrs, whilst still in use today, were much more popular decades ago. I think Marco experimented with a crushing burr for the Uber before settling on a machined burr.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

slamm said:


> They say they are aiming around $395. The grind distribution from the ghost type burrs looks interesting, less fines and very little dust. The technology is not new so if this grind distribution is more ideal for brew you have to ask why hasn't it been used much for coffee before. Or maybe it's just different.


$400 will be £500 when it get here, your doing a dollar to pound conversion without import taxes and the usual "add a bit on for the uk market "


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## slamm (Nov 26, 2016)

MWJB said:


> The grind distribution shows no comparison to any other grinder at a similar setting.


Agreed it would have been better if the graph peaks matched instead of using a coarser equivalent setting for the Apex. I guess the gist is though that it gives an overall tighter range of particle size. Which presumably would give a cleaner cup, and maybe less complexity?



MWJB said:


> Ghost burrs, whilst still in use today, were much more popular decades ago. I think Marco experimented with a crushing burr for the Uber before settling on a machined burr.


Was that for grinding espresso and brew perhaps?


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## slamm (Nov 26, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> $400 will be £500 when it get here, your doing a dollar to pound conversion without import taxes and the usual "add a bit on for the uk market "


Didn't convert but I expect you could well be right about that by the time it gets here. Bound to be an optimistic guess at this early stage anyway.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

slamm said:


> Agreed it would have been better if the graph peaks matched instead of using a coarser equivalent setting for the Apex. I guess the gist is though that it gives an overall tighter range of particle size. Which presumably would give a cleaner cup, and maybe less complexity?
> 
> Was that for grinding espresso and brew perhaps?


If it has a tighter particle distribution, that would be easy to show, even if compared to OE's other grinders.

I tend to think complexity comes from the coffee itself, not from poorer distribution (artefacts from uneven extraction).

The Uber was aimed at brew grinding, but sure, I haven't seen any espresso capable grinders with a crushing burr...no idea why that would be. If distribution is better for coarse grinds, why wouldn't it be better for fine too?


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Someone reported on h-b.com these results for sifting with Apex.. but of course lacking much context..



> Setting -6 (6 of 9 clicks finer from the mid-point). Average of two 10g grinds.
> 
> 400: 10.4%
> 
> ...


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

I own an Apex. Not fully bedded in yet (about 1kg coffee through it now) have some initial views on it:

Pros:

- Doesn't produce many fines and chaff is held within the grinder. This produces a very clean balanced cup

- Built like a tank

Cons:

- It's messy - it retains a decent amount of coffee when grinding (nearly all fines/chaff you don't want in the cup), when you remove this it gets everywhere

- It has a steep learning curve, still don't have it down but getting better. It's unlike any other grinder, it's hard to describe

- You need to bolt it down if you use lighter roasts - I have it screwed to a chopping board and clamped to my work top (can't drill directly into the worktop)

For reference for grind sizes:

This morning I used 2 steps to the fine side from centre (there are 10 steps each side of centre) and I got a draw down of around 2:45mins with a v60, double filter paper, 18g coffee, 5 equal pours of 50g water.


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## Microlot (Jun 22, 2017)

You are using two filter papers,right?

Any reason for this?


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

Microlot said:


> You are using two filter papers,right?
> 
> Any reason for this?


Yes, I sometimes "double bag" with v60 papers, it filters out some more of the oils (at the expense of a slightly slower draw down) and brings it closer to a chemex filter taste (but not all the way). I am a big chemex fan and sometimes I just yearn for a bit more clarity out of a v60, probably from my many years drinking chemex almost exclusively.

EDIT: To be clear this isn't an every day thing but something I do as the mood strikes. I've noticed so far that longer draw downs work better with this grinder so I have been doubling up more often


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## Microlot (Jun 22, 2017)

Thank´s for explaining,I will try that,never used chemex.

My Apex has seen around 5 kg,I´m using EKK43 with SSP and original MK burrs next to it,so good comparison possible,only light roast,>90 Agtron Gourmet.

Great grinder,consistent TDS now,takes a while to find the right feeling to use the handle,but once found and saved everything fine.


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

Microlot said:


> Thank´s for explaining,I will try that,never used chemex.
> 
> My Apex has seen around 5 kg,I´m using EKK43 with SSP and original MK burrs next to it,so good comparison possible,only light roast,>90 Agtron Gourmet.
> 
> Great grinder,consistent TDS now,takes a while to find the right feeling to use the handle,but once found and saved everything fine.


The more I use it the more impressed I get with the cup profile.

Still don't have an "intuitive" feel with the spinning yet. When I get a new bean and change the grind setting it still takes me a few sacrifice beans to get the feel but once I get it I'm good to go, I'm hoping with enough use I will get a better intuition.

As you're measuring how much weight of coffee did you get through for the TDS to get consistent?


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## Microlot (Jun 22, 2017)

Power Freak said:


> As you're measuring how much weight of coffee did you get through for the TDS to get consistent?


With the refractometer,to evaluate the percentage of Tds for my given roast,grinder and grind setting I´m following the SCA Golden Cup Standard,V60 02,22/400,3min brewtime.

More often and depending on roast and variety I´m moving between 18-21/300.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Microlot said:


> More often and depending on roast and variety I´m moving between 18-21/300.


How can you keep TDS consistent when varying dose weight?


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

Microlot said:


> With the refractometer,to evaluate the percentage of Tds for my given roast,grinder and grind setting I´m following the SCA Golden Cup Standard,V60 02,22/400,3min brewtime.
> 
> More often and depending on roast and variety I´m moving between 18-21/300.


Sorry, I wasn't particularly clear. I was wondering if you noticed a point where the TDS extractions got more consistent between brews? (e.g. after 2kg beans through the grinder) Looking to see what sort of level of seasoning these burrs require (in an objective way rather than taste tests)


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## Microlot (Jun 22, 2017)

Power Freak said:


> Sorry, I wasn't particularly clear. I was wondering if you noticed a point where the TDS extractions got more consistent between brews?


No,as always with a new grinder I grind about 5 kg before activating taste and data,I´m roasting a lot,so there is this bucket with failed roasts,or roasts I´m not 110% happy about,that´s my breaking in material.

There are several statements concerning the grind settings,in my opinion it depends a lot on roast,amount,way of brewing and at least personal preference,I´m moving between 3-5 clicks from finest

with the V60/02.......single filter

For people who enjoy drinking darker SBUX like roasts I think around middle grind setting and a faster draw down time could also give a tasty cup.


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

Microlot said:


> No,as always with a new grinder I grind about 5 kg before activating taste and data,I´m roasting a lot,so there is this bucket with failed roasts,or roasts I´m not 110% happy about,that´s my breaking in material.
> 
> There are several statements concerning the grind settings,in my opinion it depends a lot on roast,amount,way of brewing and at least personal preference,I´m moving between 3-5 clicks from finest
> 
> ...


Thanks, good to know!

I'm about 1.5kg through the grinder now and have 1kg of stales coming in the next couple of days to pass through so hoping to get it closer to the sweet spot. Roasting is not a rabbit hole I've hopped down yet but it'd be useful right now with another new espresso grinder on the way (I lent my OE pharos to a friend and they loved it and didn't want the hassle of dialing in again so have bought me a new one to replace it... Going to have arms like pop-eye when I'm done seasoning all these burrs)

My go to setting at the moment is 5 clicks from finest with a double filter for a single v60/02 so I think we are in broad agreement regarding settings (at the moment I'm using a Squaremile filter roast, so not super light scandi-style but light-ish).


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

My overall impression is that it seems to have a lot of retention, big/heavy and hard to use as well as messy. Not the qualities you'd expect from a manual grinder perhaps..


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## Microlot (Jun 22, 2017)

Yes,true,

0.3 grams retention per grind if cleaned completely after grinding is too much,weight is declared in the manual,worth a read before buying......messy.don´t know what you mean,maybe your way of using,but if all that is what is most important to you and not the excellent result in the cup than this is the wrong grinder for you,for sure.


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

Retention? Yes, higher than I would like ideally but the retained parts are the fines and chaff which I'd rather out of my cup. So not a really big negative for me.

Big/Heavy? Not any more so than a quality electric grinder. It's unfair to compare to a Lido style, you won't store an apex in hand luggage for travelling.

Hard to use? No, a learning curve is more accurate. Once you get it down it's easy, it's just a strange sensation at first if you're used to other hand grinders (you use little/no pressure, if a bean gets stuck you rock the handle etc.)

Messy? I would say yes, not when actually grinding for a cup but during clear out I find the grinds find there way everywhere (I am obsessive about cleanliness with coffee equipment though, some people might not care)

If you just want a "press and play" grinder in the mornings any hand grinder isn't for you, they all require a bit more engagement to get the most out of them.

The quality in the cup is most important though and it is incredible. I don't think you can find another grinder in its price range that gets anywhere near some of the cups I've had out of it.

You also get support from 2 folks that love their product and will go out of their way to help you (can't say that about many other grinder manufacturers). By purchasing one you're also voting with your wallet to say there is an appetite to try new ideas, I'd rather be presented with a real choice than having a completely homogenised marketplace.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

At $500 (close to £600 I would reckon with tax & shipping) I would expect a more refined product perhaps? What would it do better than a Vario w/ steel burrs and/or the new Wilfa and both are cheaper?

I do have respect for the people behind them, but it does seem a lot like an early v1 product to me.


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

Maybe you should listen to those with the grinder rather than making your own conclusions? You see to have made your mind up already about it, that's cool it's not a grinder for everybody but given what people have written about the cup quality so far it's pretty obvious where its strengths lie.


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## MLG (Dec 5, 2018)

any new thoughts, test in the last few weeks?

mine will arrive next week and i am really excited..


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

MLG said:


> any new thoughts, test in the last few weeks?
> 
> mine will arrive next week and i am really excited..


Nothing really new from me. My advice would be:

- Take your time to get used to how to use it

- Bolt it down if you can, at the least bolt to a chopping board to make it easier to ground

- RDT is necessary

- I don't really agree with the OE folks advice on grinding: go as slow as you can put up with, let it stall every 1/4 turn if necessary! This will reduce fines and retention. Grinding "backwards" makes grinding slowly easier as fewer beans seem to engage with the burrs at any one time... The 120BPM advice is way faster than I grind, I haven't tested but I'd guess I'm about 75BPM

- If you can pass 5kg or as many stales as you can through the grinder it'll improve dramatically

- Don't get too concerned with taking it apart and deep cleaning too often (I haven't at all yet)

- Don't worry about noises at the very end of either grind range - you won't use them anyway

- The foil plate in the grind hopper can come off, don't worry about that either it works fine without it

- Enjoy some tasty beverages


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## MLG (Dec 5, 2018)

Power Freak said:


> Nothing really new from me. My advice would be:
> 
> - Take your time to get used to how to use it
> 
> ...


Thanks!

What type of beans are you using?

Does the RDT change the retention, or producing the fines?

Did you weight the coffee inserted/grinded at the first use, if so what was the retention?

How much time does id take to grind 20/40g of coffee?

Can you make a comparition between the apex and other hand grinders?


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

MLG said:


> Thanks!
> 
> What type of beans are you using?
> 
> ...


I change beans around once every 2 weeks or so. At the moment I'm using Round Hill Nimu Silus from Burundi - with the grinder I've used coffee from Gardelli, La Cabra, Square Mile, etc. and from multiple countries of origin (typically African) and generally light to light-ish roast profiles. Haven't had any issues.

The RDT reduces static which reduces the retention, the same with any hand grinder there's no earth so static can be a problem. I use a spray bottle 1-2 squirts per single cup of filter and the static is minimal.

In the beginning I had some retention, can't remember how much off hand. Maybe up to about 0.5g per 15g dose (don't quote me on that though). After the burrs have bed in I rarely get any retention at all (others report high retention but it's certainly not been my experience even when box fresh)

As I'm spinning slowly it takes a while to grind, maybe 5-10mins per 15g dose depending on how much attention I'm paying/what the beans are behaving like/etc.

I've owned a lot of hand grinders and for cup quality none come close to the apex in my opinion. It has some quirks and isn't the easiest to use but I'm willing to make that sacrifice. If you're after a grinder where you get up and quickly make a cup before work this might not be the best, if you're happy spending a bit more time and concentration you'll be rewarded for it.


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## MLG (Dec 5, 2018)

Power Freak said:


> I've owned a lot of hand grinders and for cup quality none come close to the apex in my opinion. It has some quirks and isn't the easiest to use but I'm willing to make that sacrifice. If you're after a grinder where you get up and quickly make a cup before work this might not be the best, if you're happy spending a bit more time and concentration you'll be rewarded for it.


Thank's again for the responses.

I am looking forward to test it, i have many hand grinders and also electric ones, but this keeps me in the loop...









Did you made a hard cleaning before and after using RDT ?

The 5/10 min. a little bit scares me, but for a good cup you make everything possible.

Do you have a refractometer?


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

MLG said:


> Thank's again for the responses.
> 
> I am looking forward to test it, i have many hand grinders and also electric ones, but this keeps me in the loop...
> 
> ...


I have never deep cleaned this grinder. I find brushing between each grind session with a teapot spout cleaner (as in one of the OE videos) does a good enough job for me. As I'm essentially getting the weight out that I put in (less than 0.1g difference) Not much comes out with this cleaning anymore, in the beginning a lot more came out.

If you're willing to give up some retention and fines you can go much quicker than that. When I brew I'm not in a rush and it doesn't take that much longer than it takes the kettle to boil anyway!

I no longer own a refractometer as I personally don't find them particularly useful. I find if you dial in by taste (and you know what to taste for more importantly) then use consistent technique you'll rarely be out of a "good" range for EY anyway.

i find the taste of this grinder best described as clean and clear, very defined. It seems difficult to get really bitter notes even with long contact times, I think through the lack of fines produced and even grind size. I can make really strong brews that still taste good if that's your desire.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Power Freak said:


> I find the taste of this grinder best described as clean and clear, very defined. It seems difficult to get really bitter notes even with long contact times, I think through the lack of fines produced and even grind size. I can make really strong brews that still taste good if that's your desire.


A refractometer can't really help you evaluate a brew grinder anyway. For the same grinder EY will swing depending on grind size.

Are you sure that it makes few fines & has an even grind size, as opposed to just being set coarse?


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

MWJB said:


> A refractometer can't really help you evaluate a brew grinder anyway. For the same grinder EY will swing depending on grind size.
> 
> Are you sure that it makes few fines & has an even grind size, as opposed to just being set coarse?


I'm not totally sure about the fines/evenness, I'm relying on:

a) The eyeball test - both on the grounds themselves and the look of the brew slurry/brewer walls

b) Doug and Barb at OE said that their aim for this grinder was to make something with even grind size and few fines


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Do you have access to a Kruve? We don't have any data for this kind of burrs, so would be interesting.


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## MLG (Dec 5, 2018)

I will test it with a set of Kruve.

we just need to wait one more week...


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

the_partisan said:


> Do you have access to a Kruve? We don't have any data for this kind of burrs, so would be interesting.


I don't.

Somebody on HB tested the grinder with a kruve (all the usual caveats apply) and the results were very very similar to their ek43.


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

MLG said:


> The 5/10 min. a little bit scares me, but for a good cup you make everything possible.


I timed myself this morning and tried to be as quick as I could with decent technique and I got to 4mins30s for 15g. The majority of the grinding is done before that but getting the last bit out takes maybe 1min30 (beans get stuck on a screw in the hopper and you have to brush them out, then spin and open/close the burrs to get the last beans to engage/release the grinds).

I had 15.0g in and 15.0g out. Cleaning out the fines with a brush afterwards I managed to remove a pinch sized amount.


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