# Sage DB......is this acceptable



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Having taken the plunge and bought one, am still enjoying it, but, I lent a member a grinder and when he returned it, I just pulled a shot to see where the dial in was. The shot poured way to fast but it extracted at 9 bar. Once I had tightened the grind, the extraction went back to 10.5 bar.

Do I have to coarsen the grind to extract at 9 bar or should the machine handle this better. Presumably the DB is leaning more towards the Sage Grinder but without being rude about them, they hardly set the world on fire.

I am struggling to think of any other reasons that would cause this. Sage rabbit on in the videos about the importance of 9 bar yet I feel left out, in a peculiar sort of way. I know their is an OPV fix out their but if I do that I invalidate the warranty. I have put this to Sage and got a load of waffle back about if it tastes ok at 10.5 bar whats the problem. The problem is I cannot extract at 9 bar so I cannot compare. Do other DB owners have this 10.5 bar issue?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Surely if the OPV is set to 10.5 (or whatever it is) then that is the pressure that will build behind the puck? I didn't think there was ever a suggestion to use the resistance of the puck to achieve your extraction pressure... but I could be mistaken about that.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Hi Dave the opv is usually set a little high but usually during normal extraction this would sit at 9bar.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Thanks chaps but it does not explain why the grind or resistance varies the bar pressure. I will have a play around over the weekend to see if I can find a common denominator but I know of at least one other with the same issue. What do other owners run at?


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## Sean (Jun 20, 2014)

Mine always seems to be around the same mark you are seeing. Interesting query.


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## Craig-R872 (Apr 4, 2016)

Pretty sure mine extracts at 9 to 9.5 bar. I will check tomorrow when I pull another shot. Don't think I've ever seen it at 10.5 bar apart from when I am back flushing.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Thanks chaps but it does not explain why the grind or resistance varies the bar pressure. I will have a play around over the weekend to see if I can find a common denominator but I know of at least one other with the same issue. What do other owners run at?


I may be missing something here, but why does it not explain it?

If the machine is set to 10.5 bar but it experiences 9 bar of pressure or 'resistence' at the puck then this is what the gauge would show.

I don't know how likely it is that this pressure would be consistent during a shot, probably not very. But I can't think of any explanation if the pressure increased when you tightened the grind.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dylan said:


> I may be missing something here, but why does it not explain it?
> 
> If the machine is set to 10.5 bar but it experiences 9 bar of pressure or 'resistence' at the puck then this is what the gauge would show.
> 
> I don't know how likely it is that this pressure would be consistent during a shot, probably not very. But I can't think of any explanation if the pressure increased when you tightened the grind.


When I pulled a shot with a coarser grind, it extracted at 9 bar but the shot was totally wrong. When I adjusted the grind so the pour and extraction is right, the bar pressure rose to 10.5. that is where it always is on mine. I have been using the same bean for a number of weeks. So, what I do not understand Dylan, is that if the OPV is set to a certain bar pressure, why does a finer grind seem to send it haywire.

If you look at the Sage videos

http://www.sageappliances.co.uk/the-dual-boiler.html

they stress the importance of 9 bar and how the machine delivers this every time......really?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Because the finer grind presents more resistance at the puck. Unless the machine can sense the resistance at the puck and adjust pump pressure, coarse grinds will make for less bar & fine grinds for more bar.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Because the finer grind presents more resistance at the puck. Unless the machine can sense the resistance at the puck and adjust pump pressure, coarse grinds will make for less bar & fine grinds for more bar.


Yep Mark, that is the conclusion I had come to......so, how are people pulling acceptable shots at 9 bar then? I am presuming that the Sage grinder is set up for use with Sage machines. Be interested to know if anyone who owns both can grind as tight as it goes and see what the pressure is. I do not think it will choke. I am going to grind coarser and see what happens. perhaps I can tweek it to get an acceptable shot at 9 bar. I still do not think it is right though. My pucks are usually moist but not waterlogged


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Maybe go coarser & 9 bar, but you might need to pull a longer shot? If you didn't have the gauge, would you know you had a 'problem'? The machine won't know what grinder is being used, just how much resistance it sees from the puck.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

That's the issue. The manufacturer and everyone else tells you 9bar is king. I cannot compare the shots to anything so perhaps they are fine but it does not explain why the Sage video gets that perfect extraction.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> That's the issue. The manufacturer and everyone else tells you 9bar is king. I cannot compare the shots to anything so perhaps they are fine but it does not explain why the Sage video gets that perfect extraction.


Because its OPV is probably set to 9 bar, thats the max the gauge will show you.

Isnt everyone running 6 BAR shots now anyway


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I think it is basic logic that a coarser grind has less resistence. But the 9 bar is achieved on every other machine with the OPV, if there is a blanking basket in there it tops out at 9 bar. It is only less than this if there is less than 9 bar resistence at the puck.

9 bar is not neccesserily king, and I wouldnt take what Sage say as gold as they are aiming to please the common denominator. 9 bar is just accepted wisdom but there are threads on here about how 6 bar is better for some folks.

Bar pressure from the pump is regulated by the OPV, not by the puck, I simply cannot understand why you are trying to achieve 9 bar at the puck by changing the grind.

Are pre infusion and full pump pressures not adjustable on the DB?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dylan said:


> I think it is basic logic that a coarser grind has less resistence. But the 9 bar is achieved on every other machine with the OPV, if there is a blanking basket in there it tops out at 9 bar. It is only less than this if there is less than 9 bar resistence at the puck.
> 
> 9 bar is not neccesserily king, and I wouldnt take what Sage say as gold as they are aiming to please the common denominator. 9 bar is just accepted wisdom but there are threads on here about how 6 bar is better for some folks.
> 
> ...


I know you can adjust pre infusion but I have no idea about pump pressure. I think my original point has been lost. Initially, I noticed my machine always pulled at 10.5 bar. The white gloves man commented on this and suggested I change the grind. I received a grinder back that had been out on loan, pulled a shot and noticed it was at 9 bar but the shot was wrong. made the adjustments by tightening the grind, the shot pulled fine but the bar pressure jumped up.

Can you alter the pump pressure? Perhaps I am being finicky, but I would prefer a lower bar extraction a la lever days than a higher


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> I know you can adjust pre infusion but I have no idea about pump pressure. I think my original point has been lost. Initially, I noticed my machine always pulled at 10.5 bar. The white gloves man commented on this and suggested I change the grind. I received a grinder back that had been out on loan, pulled a shot and noticed it was at 9 bar but the shot was wrong. made the adjustments by tightening the grind, the shot pulled fine but the bar pressure jumped up.
> 
> Can you alter the pump pressure? Perhaps I am being finicky, but I would prefer a lower bar extraction a la lever days than a higher


Its doable - Change pre-infusion to 60 seconds and reduce pump power in 5% increments until you are hitting 9 BAR with your desired grind


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> The white gloves man commented on this and suggested I change the grind. I received a grinder back that had been out on loan, pulled a shot and noticed it was at 9 bar but the shot was wrong.


When you say the shot was "wrong", what exactly do you mean?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Looks like Gary's post may be a solution of sorts, but you sacrifice any actual pre infusion.

I think it is likely that the grinder you got back was set too coarse and happened to provide 9 bar of resistence at the puck.

As I mentioned in a previous post I have never seen the advice that you should change your grind to achieve your desired pressure. Either your white gloves man doesn't know what he is on about or knows something i/we don't.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Dylan said:


> Looks like Gary's post may be a solution of sorts, but you sacrifice any actual pre infusion.
> 
> I think it is likely that the grinder you got back was set too coarse and happened to provide 9 bar of resistence at the puck.
> 
> As I mentioned in a previous post I have never seen the advice that you should change your grind to achieve your desired pressure. Either your white gloves man doesn't know what he is on about or knows something i/we don't.


Natural vibe pump ramp up is pre-infusion enough in itself IMO


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Its doable - Change pre-infusion to 60 seconds and reduce pump power in 5% increments until you are hitting 9 BAR with your desired grind


Oh dear, my old dinosaur head is spinning.....wheres my french press!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Oh dear, my old dinosaur head is spinning.....wheres my french press!


Just hold down the up and arrow keys until this shows


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

....and change it to something like 60 seconds.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Then press menu , this will show (with a different number )


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Change that to 95 , exit to confirm, and see if the max reached now is 9BAR. If not do the process again but reduce it to 90 and try again


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

And do it with a back flushing disk not coffee ^_^


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

If you use the blank disk and leave it running long enough the gauge will eventually creep all the way to what the OPV is set to 10.5BAR.

I would do it with coffee at the grind setting which is currently causing 10.5bar .


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@garydyke1 @Dylan

Thanks for taking the time to help and show me. Will do this after lunch if I still have a brain left from writing a numbingly boring pension review!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> If you use the blank disk and leave it running long enough the gauge will eventually creep all the way to what the OPV is set to 10.5BAR.
> 
> I would do it with coffee at the grind setting which is currently causing 10.5bar .


Ah fair dos, was thinking along the lines of a 'normal' machine.

What does the DB do to regulate the pressure during 'preinfusion'?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Dylan said:


> Ah fair dos, was thinking along the lines of a 'normal' machine.
> 
> What does the DB do to regulate the pressure during 'preinfusion'?


Pump power. Similar principle to Slayer 1 Group lol


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@garydyke1

well, all I can say is wow......dropped it down to 9 bar (and I do not understand any of what I have done by the way) but the resultant shot is smoother, fuller bodied and ever so drinkable

Thank you verymuch for your input


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## Craig-R872 (Apr 4, 2016)

Have just tried mine pulled 2 shots both started about 10 bar but went down to around 9.5 bar.But as garydyke1 has said had some lovely shots at about 6 bar for entire shot.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> @garydyke1
> 
> well, all I can say is wow......dropped it down to 9 bar (and I do not understand any of what I have done by the way) but the resultant shot is smoother, fuller bodied and ever so drinkable
> 
> Thank you verymuch for your input


Have a play with the pump power (PPxx) you might find 6 or 7 BAR suits your palate better - you'll need to grind a little finer


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

Just out of curiosity @dfk41 what pressure are you getting with the blanking plate in? Mine's 10.5 same as Gary's. The resultant pressure is going to be a combination of the OPV setting and resistance in the puck, and everyone's puck is different!

I would say that if you're getting 10.5 with what you consider an acceptable pour then your OPV must be set a bit on the high side. Mine tops out at about 10.25 when the grind is way too fine. I would wager a bet that you're getting about 11 bar or even a bit higher with a blanking plate or blind basket.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Sami

will re set it tomorrow, try it then put it back to where it is and try again and report back


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> @garydyke1
> 
> well, all I can say is wow......dropped it down to 9 bar (and I do not understand any of what I have done by the way) but the resultant shot is smoother, fuller bodied and ever so drinkable
> 
> Thank you verymuch for your input


Glad you're getting good results from this Dave. The 6 bar ones are worth trying as well. This is Dave isn't it?....im half convinced he's been kidnapped by Charlie and he's forcing you to type nice things about Sage kit.?


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## arellim (May 9, 2016)

This might all be my fault- sorry David; I should have left the grinder alone!!

Come round for some lever shots whenever you like!!

Andy


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Re the grinder (smart grinder pro) I'm grinding at 8-9 for spro I'm probably on the lighter side of you so would expect 10 to 13 or maybe even 14.

Pump pressure will help smooth out shots for sure but the grinder does sound a bit off.

How long are your shots taking on the low pressure?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Can I just ask if people are using the manual button to pull shots are the double button? I need to tighten the grind a little having dropped the pressure to slightly less than 7 bar.

@Spence, you are using the Sage grinder these days?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I've only ever used the manual button really.


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## Craig-R872 (Apr 4, 2016)

As I weigh in and out for me it's easy just to use the manual button to end the shot when target weight is reached. Usually between 25 - 30 seconds.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Can I just ask if people are using the manual button to pull shots are the double button? I need to tighten the grind a little having dropped the pressure to slightly less than 7 bar.
> 
> @Spence, you are using the Sage grinder these days?


I use the double button. Doesn't the manual button go straight to full pump power once you release it?

The double button when set to 90s pre-infusion allows you set flow using the pump pressure which allows tweaking. If you go too low then you can run into issues which deadspots.

Yes Dave, I have a smart grinder pro next to my ek. I was intrigued by the grind distribution as it's got a pretty tight peak, tighter than the ek according to the graphs I've seen and a similar looking fines count. It does do something very different in the cup to the ek and it does over extract but its loads less fuss and can still produce great tasting spro. It will also grind up to traditional French press size which the ek won't do.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Xpenno said:


> Doesn't the manual button go straight to full pump power once you release it?


No, but if you press and hold it you can maintain pre-infusion indefinitely


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> No, but if you press and hold it you can maintain pre-infusion indefinitely


I thought when you press manual it activates the pump on pre-infusion and when you release it it goes to full power? Double buttons work best for me anyway


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

If you press manual it will run the full pre infusion time chosen (mines set to 60 seconds). If I press and hold it down it will continue indefinitely

Manual info :

*MANUAL*

The MANUAL button allows you to control the espresso pour volume to suit your preference.

Press MANUAL button once to start the espresso extraction. The extraction will start using the low pressure pre-infusion.

Press MANUAL button again to stop extraction.

*Press & Hold - 2 CUP*

Press & hold 2 CUP to bypass the pre-infusion phase and deliver water to the group head at the full 9 bar pressure. Release button to stop extraction. This function can be used when purging

the group head.

*Press & Hold - MANUAL*

Press & hold the MANUAL button to deliver water to the group head at low pre-infusion pressure. When MANUAL button is released, water will continue at the full 9 bars of pressure. Press MANUAL button again to stop extraction.

This function can be used to manually control the pre-infusion duration.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

At 6 bar, I am starting to get fruit, where there should not be fruit......it is starting to make decaf quite acceptable......cannot wait for my usual beans to be drinkable in a couple of days


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## Sean (Jun 20, 2014)

This thread has been great. I've had mine nearly two years and never thought to set the pre infusion to do the whole shot. Mine normally sits just above 10bar. Just going to try it now. Thanks.


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## Sean (Jun 20, 2014)

Well that's interesting. Set the PP to 90 and the pressure still went to just over 10 initially and then dropped to 9 once suturated. Finishing at around 8.5 by the end.


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## smidster09 (Feb 19, 2014)

garydyke1 said:


> Have a play with the pump power (PPxx) you might find 6 or 7 BAR suits your palate better - you'll need to grind a little finer


Just being nosey Gary... what weight in vs weight out ratio are you pulling and in what time with your low pressure shots.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Sean said:


> Well that's interesting. Set the PP to 90 and the pressure still went to just over 10 initially and then dropped to 9 once suturated. Finishing at around 8.5 by the end.


I lowered mine to around 70 and it pulls just below 7 bar. It makes an amazing difference to the shot!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

smidster09 said:


> Just being nosey Gary... what weight in vs weight out ratio are you pulling and in what time with your low pressure shots.


I am inputting circa 18 grams, extracting about 35 or so in around 45 to 50 seconds. Grind finer is what I was told!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

smidster09 said:


> Just being nosey Gary... what weight in vs weight out ratio are you pulling and in what time with your low pressure shots.


Obviously with a different grinder / water / coffee

18g ->40-45-50g->30-40-50 seconds (anything goes with an EK43)

Last weeks In My Mug which is a great example of a deliciously fruity Bolivian coffee I've been running

18g-44g-34 seconds (C.21% Extraction Yield)


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## smidster09 (Feb 19, 2014)

Thanks Gary & dfk looking forward to trying it out!! Really helpful thread.


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## smidster09 (Feb 19, 2014)

Thanks Gary & dfk looking forward to trying it out!! Really helpful thread.


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