# Let the Grinds see the Basket!



## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Quick video on how to distribute your grinds into the basket of your choice. Not to be taken as gospel but an insight none the less


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Good concept. I've never had any problems with clumping on either my MC2 and my new SJ barely clumps at all. I find with the convex tamp, any small clumps get smashed to bits anyway







Never had any signs of channeling thankfully. Imagine this technique would be great for ppl suffering from clumping grinds







Good vid!


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

WDT? More like WTF.

The video is a joke from a bored housewife surely. And a special method for running you finger around the basket? Come on now.

An 'insight' Tony? Please tell me you are saying that with your tongue firmly in your cheek mate


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Straight from grinder into basket, tamp , polish, done . Keep it simples


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Absolutely spot on Gary.

I cannot recall the last time I saw a shop barista use WDT.

I've not seen it in competition either.

If your grinder clumps (badly) and you need to break the clumps up then maybe it will help.


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

"WDT" is actually a term used by other peoplem outside of that video for this peice of a yogurt pot and a stick? And people can say it with a straight face? Oh... my...


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

There's also a name for swivelling your finger across the top of the basket to level the coffee off. Some other guy's name.

I've no idea how this sort of thing has come about. Ironically, maybe Internet forums.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

That will be the Stockfleth's move you're referring to. Very common amongst baristas.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

In the past I used a piece of wire to de-clump the grinds from my mini-e, however im not sure of the good it did, certainly added a big chunk of time into my workflow


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

I prefer to use Rodabod's tap when leveling my grounds.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

rodabod said:


> I prefer to use Rodabod's tap when leveling my grounds.


sounds tricky..can you demonstrate by video?


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

This video was originally posted because I found a post on this very forum mentioning the phrase WDT. I had no idea what it was on about and put it into google... This was one of the returns.

Loads of new members (and guests) browse these forums for advice and come across things that they have no idea about. They can't tell whether they are significant to making good coffee or just a fad dreamt up by the next YouTube wannabe. I for one can vouch for this. When I first joined I didn't know the terminology at all. I had no idea about VST's, naked PF's, OPV Mods etc.... It took me a lot of reading and I'm probably only 10% there.

I harped on about a video thread to Glenn because I honestly felt that 'a picture really does paint a thousand words'. People want to see techniques and 'how to' videos to make their experiences easier. As an example, I'm looking at the OPV mod. There are quite a few threads on here about it but my first stop was YouTube where I found some pretty helpful videos.

Feel free to research YouTube and post some alternative videos of your own. Not all of us are born coffee gurus so videos like this are often a great help.


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

I question her definition of vigorous. Lay off the quaaludes.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

autopilot said:


> WDT? More like WTF.
> 
> The video is a joke from a bored housewife surely. And a special method for running you finger around the basket? Come on now.
> 
> An 'insight' Tony? Please tell me you are saying that with your tongue firmly in your cheek mate


Either you are just being particularly sarcastic or incredibly rude? A lot of people haven't got a scooby in the early stages of making great coffee and as such a lot of these vids can help newbies with the basics.


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

True... Maybe you didn't mean it but it almost made me think that I shouldn't bother anymore. It's not like I gain anything from posting on here... Apart from the odd 'thanks'


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Big T - don't you dare give up mate. Your enthusiasm for coffee making is a credit. Some people, sadly, engage their pinkies before their brain and think condescension is cool. Well, it isn't. I'm 100% with Coffeechap.


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

I think "the post" was mainly just written in humour. I thought it was funny, and I don't think it was intended to offend.

I do think that some of these preparation methods are pretty silly, and it's a bit embarrassing that these moves are actually named after people, but each to their own.

Videos can be really handy. It has certainly helped while I've been getting the knack to foaming milk.


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## series530 (Jan 4, 2013)

It's quite difficult to verbally articulate the art of coffee making or many of the associated tasks such as machine cleaning.

i was very lucky in having had some on site training from Glenn. Most people are not not able to do that. For me, and drawing upon a few words that Tony said, "a few hours of training is worth a thousand videos". Equally, without one to one training I totally agree that a "video is worth a thousand words" and I applaud Tony for making them. Please do not feel disheartened. Please continue to contribute to the forum.

One thing I found interesting in this video is the amount of coffee which appeared to be wasted in the filling and tamping of the porta filter. Perhaps I'm being a tight wad but I find it easier to under fill a porta filter, to gently flatten the top with the NSEW method and then add a bit more coffee and flatten again and then tamp everything. With care it won't leave air gaps and it also saves spilling coffee over the rim of the porta filter and it going to waste. There are probably a dozen reasons why this approach is not a good idea but it does keep my Worktop cleaner and my bag of coffee goes slightly further.


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Either you are just being particularly sarcastic or incredibly rude? A lot of people haven't got a scooby in the early stages of making great coffee and as such a lot of these vids can help newbies with the basics.


LOL we are talking about making a hot beverage so lets not take things too seriously









When I watched the video I thought, yeah I guess that's a reasonably neat idea. Not something I think I would ever need or see why because, even in my early days, I have never had a problem getting the coffee in the basket, but hey ho I could help someone. Then she called it the 'WDT' and I really did genuinely think it was a joke at that point. Also, with the amount of coffee she wastes and the having to invent a special way to rub the coffee off the rim? Can you not see how utterly ridiculous that is? Or at least see why some of us did?

Tony, please don't be so sensitive. My sharp response was not intended offensively, although I do admit my sense of humour does get lost on text based forums. Either way it was not aimed at you tony, sorry you felt that way. Keep posting the vids, keep making great coffee and keep smiling mate









Anyway I have a latte too make and a new baby's nappy to change...


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

autopilot said:


> Tony, please don't be so sensitive....


Don't confuse politeness with sensitivity.... I could have responded with equal short, sharp and rude comments but I chose to point out the reasons for posting such videos instead of getting into an unnecessary argument.

You say in the first line of your post that we are only talking about making a hot beverage so lets not take things too seriously. A comment like that makes me wonder why you have joined a forum where many people are striving to produce the perfect cup of coffee. Look back through the various threads and you'll see how people talk about the numerous variables that can affect the overall quality of your coffee.

My previous technique in this department was to tap the base of the PF on the kitchen side until all the grinds had flattened out. I now know that this causes the heavier grinds to sink to the bottom whilst the lighter grinds remain at the top. This would produce channeling issues and affect the extraction time and overall quality of the end product. This specific video helped me realise that I had to mix the grinds. I don't use the same method shown and don't really care what she calls the technique. All I care about is learning how to get better and videos like this have helped me along the way.

Like I said before, feel free to post up alternate videos that you feel are either more beneficial or provide a different view point to this one.


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

Tony, your still taking this too seriously and personally, it was not aimed at you or intended to offend. It clearly did, I misjudged the tone of your post as being partly tongue-in-cheek, and for that I have already apologised. I have also tried to explain what I actually found amusing about it, and that it was not your posting of it, or the fact that it was intended to help, but I cant seem to get that accross. Its like those hair product adverts when they give something a rediculous made up pretentious sciencey name for something simple and generic, just to gain credibility, it reminded me of that. I find that amusing. I will keep my mouth firmly closed from now on, I do have a sharp tongue









Back to making great coffee; I do disagree somewhat with the premise that tapping the PF will make the heavier ground sink to the bottom, because A) you would need to tap/shake the PF for a long time to get the different sized grounds separate that much, and B) if you apply this theory to other materials, such as sand and rocks, the larger pieces rise to the top (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granular_convection). Furthermore, if the grind sizes are that different then could it be argued that the grinder was not working correctly?

I personally believe we are talking about the law of diminishing returns now and it would make an imperceptible difference. I would love to be proven wrong however, and I intend to drink a lot of nice coffee to find out


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Then she called it the 'WDT' and I really did genuinely think it was a joke at that point. Also, with the amount of coffee she wastes and the having to invent a special way to rub the coffee off the rim? Can you not see how utterly ridiculous that is? Or at least see why some of us did?

Unfortunately the medium of text is open to all kinds of interpretation, however yet again you have used the words " ridiculous" which just removed all the sincerity out of your apology, sometime just saying less, like " no offence meant." Says so much more.

And as you will see people do take making a shot of espresso very seriously and certainly the newer members strive to seek that perfection as quickly as they can, whether through training or watching short clips or just getting advice. I guess the same could be said of most specialist forums!

Having said that I don't think members here are averse to humour at all, we positively embrace it, just more so when others hard work is not so flamboyantly dismissed.


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

Coffechap, you seem to be confused about what i was apologising for. Again, I am not apologising for finding it rediculous, or saying that I did, which I do. I was apologising to Tony for his perception that it was aimed at him and my response. I misjudged that tone of the thread and forum in general it seems.

I guess it not about people taking coffee seriously, which I do, it's about not taking ourselves and life in general too seriously, and not taking things wildly out of context.

I have gotten off my high horse and said sorry. Perhaps you could do the same?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I was writing that as you replied so ended up after your other thread, I don't need an apology (from you BTW) and no you didn't misjudge the tone of the forum in general, if you look back over the trials and tribulations of only in his first few weeks and the joy he eventually had at finally succeeding then you might understand why people will support him in his video thread. I don't have any issues with your humour just the way (on this occasion) it appeared.

Anyway have decided to ride around on a Shetland from now on


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

autopilot said:


> I personally believe we are talking about the law of dismissing returns now and it would make an imperceptible difference.


Surely, that's the law of diminishing returns?


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Surely, that's the law of diminishing returns?


LOL, yes indeed. I guess you have not experienced the joy of the iPad auto correct feature









Corrected, thanks.


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> no you didn't misjudge the tone of the forum in general


Hmm, I'm not sure. Anyway, I was going to start a thread to discuss any potential placebo effects involved. I now realise what a huge mistake that would have been!

I don't think this forum is for me guys, my off kilter humour is bound to upset someone else. My sense of fun and cheekiness can come accross rude, especially to people who don't know me, I understand that. I'm in persuit of the perfect coffee, i love it, but i cant take things as seriously and i now realise is required here to fit in. I have a different perspective. So again my applogies to Tony and anyone else I have offended. Have fun and enjoy the coffee, I'm sure I will me missed lol

Cheers


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

autopilot said:


> LOL, yes indeed. I guess you have not experienced the joy of the iPad auto correct feature


Autocorrect does throw up some choice suggestions - have a theory that it is some form of higher intelligence we lesser mortals haven't grasped, yet. Maybe not!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Jeez guys, take a chill pill. This is only coffee afterall ; )

WDT is often used as a diagnosis tool , if you gain improvements by doing it then your grinder (or yourself) isnt distributing well enough. Clumping or poor grind quality can also be culprits.

It would be useful to take four extraction videos on your set-up with a naked portafilter, keeping all other variables static:

1. Grind into portafilter , tamp , polish, done.

2. Use WDT , tamp, polish, done

3. Grind into portafilter , tap down , tamp , polish, done.

4. Use WDT , tap down, tamp, polish, done

Personally if I had to resort to WDT i'd give up espresso at home, I would go mad


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

autopilot said:


> Hmm, I'm not sure. Anyway, I was going to start a thread to discuss any potential placebo effects involved. I now realise what a huge mistake that would have been!
> 
> I don't think this forum is for me guys, my off kilter humour is bound to upset someone else. My sense of fun and cheekiness can come accross rude, especially to people who don't know me, I understand that. I'm in persuit of the perfect coffee, i love it, but i cant take things as seriously and i now realise is required here to fit in. I have a different perspective. So again my applogies to Tony and anyone else I have offended. Have fun and enjoy the coffee, I'm sure I will me missed lol
> 
> Cheers


I think that now people know you they might enjoy your off kilter humour, take a look around people can be light hearted as well.....


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

I like Gwilym Davies' minimalist approach . . .


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Useful vid. I've read, god knows where, in some Italian test, no discernible results ensued from different tamp pressures and that a light tamp will suffice. Guess the important thing here is whatever you choose to do, be consistent. Think the point Gwilym makes about using your thumb and finger to check your tamp is level is spot on - so easy to bias to one side.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

autopilot said:


> My sense of fun and cheekiness can come accross rude, especially to people who don't know me, I understand that. I'm in persuit of the perfect coffee, i love it, but i cant take things as seriously and i now realise is required here to fit in. I have a different perspective. So again my applogies to Tony and anyone else I have offended. Have fun and enjoy the coffee, I'm sure I will me missed lol


Autopilot, don't jump off the forum - I think your idea about the placebo effect is really interesting and worth pursuing - honest! Problem with humour and posting is that it can be difficult to get it right which is why I tend to avoid it - what may seem OK to me someone might take the wrong way. They say that the essence of humour is relationship - problem is - on a forum we rarely if ever meet other members so a big chunk of that relationship thing is missing. So, don't bale out and get your idea about placebo going.

Here's a story about relationship in humour: Jack Benny, american comedian, developed amongst his audience the belief he was a tight wad - bit like the way Eric Morecambe would take the rise out of Ernie for being tight fisted. Towards the end of his career, Jack was doing a gig and telling a long winded story about being mugged. He said, 'this fella jumped out and said, 'your money or your life'. Jack paused and paused, the audience began to laugh. The mugger yelled, 'what's taking you so long?' Jack replied, 'don't rush me, I'm thinking which is the more important'. The joke was literally 50 years in the making.


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

To be honest, I think this forum can be a bit humourless, and I sometimes get the impression that a lot of the posters don't have that much experience in using discussion boards. But, I suppose a coffee forum is going to attract a certain demographic, and I'm one of them!

I thought Autopilot's original post was funny, and to some extent, probably a good point too.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Then how can this be addressed? I am quite experienced on many different forums and on the whole I would say that a forum will attract a specialist niche of people who take that interest seriously or else they would not bother with a forum, on the other hand everyone has their own personality and sense of humour which does got lost in translation in purely written text.

To be honest I found the inferences funny too, however if the intent of the poster was to genuinely provide info for members, it is understandable that feelings are affected when comments are laid down that infer that the poster is in someway stupid. That said I shall try to keep riding a smaller horse in the future as we all have a right to respond....


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

Well, if i posted a video and someone took the piss out of it, I'd either tell them to stick their steam wand somewhere painful, or I'd take it on the chin and maybe have a laugh with it.

The main difficulty here is that we are writing text on a messageboard; this sort of thing wouldn't happen if we were talking in the pub (I guess one of us would have to play the videos on a smart phone so we could watch them though).


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

rodabod said:


> The main difficulty here is that we are writing text on a messageboard; this sort of thing wouldn't happen if we were talking in the pub (I guess one of us would have to play the videos on a smart phone so we could watch them though).


You've hit the nail on the head, Rodabod. It's too easy focus on our own thoughts without thinking how what we post might be understood or possibly offend. But humour is the breath of life and it's great to see it on the forum - would be a shame if it all became rather po-faced and stuffy.


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

painty said:


> I like Gwilym Davies' minimalist approach . . .


this video shows a great tamp technique for making sure the puck is even throughout the PF. I adopted the same technique and have seen a good improvement and reduction in channeling









With reference to the other stuff - life's too short for this kind of bumpf... We've all said our ten pence worth so lets move on.

No point leaving now autopilot.... You've already left such an impression


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Useful vid. I've read, god knows where, in some Italian test, no discernible results ensued from different tamp pressures and that a light tamp will suffice.


Yes, I guess the tamp is just holding the puck in place while the water is introduced . . once the 130 pound-per-square-inch pump/lever pressure is applied, the 30 lb tamp will be history! That's something I'd like to tinker with - creating a softer start to the water introduction and pump pressure increase (i.e. similar to preinfusion) as I think that's where most problems come from.



> Guess the important thing here is whatever you choose to do, be consistent. Think the point Gwilym makes about using your thumb and finger to check your tamp is level is spot on - so easy to bias to one side.





Big Tony said:


> this video shows a great tamp technique for making sure the puck is even throughout the PF. I adopted the same technique and have seen a good improvement and reduction in channeling


Yeah I was doing this too, but by a ridiculously slow and roundabout way; Gwilym's technique is really simple and quick.


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