# Ending a pull?



## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

Is it always advisable to end a pull immediately after the tiger stripes stop? I'm presently juggling with the grind fineness, keeping to 25 seconds but failing to achieve a full 2oz shot. To get the 2 oz I have to continue pouring beyond 17 seconds of crema pour and then all the subsequent pour is blonde.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Pulling by volume or appearance isn't really recommended any more, as there are so many different coffees and different roasts that it can be misleading.

Do you have digital scales? Try weighing the grounds then try to extract 1.65 times that amount in 25-30 seconds. Taste it and if it tastes sour you might need to tighten the grind and go for more like 30-33 seconds. If it tastes bitter you might want to loosen the grind a bit and aim for 22-25 seconds.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Was 1.65 the golden ratio Dale referred to? I realised I couldn't actually remember what he said lol!


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

lookseehear said:


> Taste it and if it tastes sour or If it tastes bitter


If it tastes sour you may also like to try a higher brew temp or if it tastes bitter try a lower brew temp.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Just our of interest. Can you describe two tastes to me. What might taste bitter and what might taste sour to compare to. I've got a total mind blank and can't think.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Bitter - 100% cacao, brush your teeth then eat a grapefruit/orange.

Sour - off milk , sour kraut


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

So is a lemon both bitter and sour?


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

fatboyslim said:


> Was 1.65 the golden ratio Dale referred to? I realised I couldn't actually remember what he said lol!


Yep, 1.65 is what we used with Dale but he did also say that others prefer different ratios. I was lapping up all the information I could!


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## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

lookseehear said:


> Pulling by volume or appearance isn't really recommended any more, as there are so many different coffees and different roasts that it can be misleading.
> 
> Do you have digital scales? Try weighing the grounds then try to extract 1.65 times that amount in 25-30 seconds. Taste it and if it tastes sour you might need to tighten the grind and go for more like 30-33 seconds. If it tastes bitter you might want to loosen the grind a bit and aim for 22-25 seconds.


Is there a relationship between the optimal 20% extract and the x1.65 figure you mentioned?


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

What do you mean by 20% extract?


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

The term extraction is actually slightly overloaded. We often use extraction to refer to the extraction yield (the amount of dissolvable solids extracted from the coffee beans). According to gold cup brewing standards, 18-22 % is the optimum range of extraction yield. However, we also sometimes use the word to describe the espresso brewing process in general or occasionally even the resulting drink. The factor of 1.65 in this case is related to the brewing ratio i.e. the quantity of the liquid espresso produced relative to the quantity of ground coffee used to produce it.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

I have read that the optimum taste quality is when 20% of the beans weight has been extracted.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I think you're referring to 20% solubles yield:

20% extraction of 15 grams of espresso in a double shot (60 mL) yields 3 grams per 60 mL, or 5% strength, which is 3-4× typical brewed coffee strength.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_extraction


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Beemer asked: "Is there a relationship between the optimal 20% extract and the x1.65 figure you mentioned?"

Indirectly there is. Solubles yeild & TDS are not easy things for the typical home barista to measure.

Brew ratios are easier to establish & just requires scales, Extract's 1.65 figure also equates to 60% ratio, in that the final bevarage weighs 1.65x the grinds, or the grinds are 60% of the weight of the final beverage.

18g grinds = 30g (or 15g grinds = 25g) of beverage by weight. As to whether that ratio results in under or over extraction will be determined by how it tastes, which in turn is driven by the fineness of the grind. Too fine may lead to overextraction & bitterness, too coarse may lead to underextraction & sourness.

In other words, if you are hitting the 1.65/60% ratio and it tastes good, you are most likely falling within an acceptable yeild.

It all appeared very simple in mind's eye, now I have written it out, I don't know if I have made it less so?!


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## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

Starting to make more sense for me now. I have been using the first advice rule I read which was that the final volume was twice the beans weight. Perhaps this is why I have had difficulty in reaching the 60ml in 25 seconds even with what I felt was a good grind.


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## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

IMO the 2oz in 20 secs type 'rule of thumb' while easy to understand is one of the biggest reasons that newbies struggle. Its difficult to achieve, probably too much liquid for a 16/17g double dose and will change between beans.

The worst piece of well intended advise!

A set of £5 jewellery scales from ebay was the start of the single biggest improvements to my shots (grinder excluded)


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## Milesy (Mar 8, 2012)

2oz in 20 seconds is what I expect from the poor coffee places. Way too much volume and too under extracted.

I always dose 18g and stop the shot at 30g volume by weight and then adjust the grind to taste.

I use these scales:

http://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/Pocket-Scales-(200g-%7B47%7D-0.01g).html


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## Milesy (Mar 8, 2012)

I also prefer my 18g to 30g pulled in about 30/35 seconds. I just pulled a shot which took slightly longer at 45 seconds (too much tamp pressure) but still tasted wonderful.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Beemer said:


> Starting to make more sense for me now. I have been using the first advice rule I read which was that the final volume was twice the beans weight. Perhaps this is why I have had difficulty in reaching the 60ml in 25 seconds even with what I felt was a good grind.


A lot of people intermix volume (measured in Fl. Oz. or ml) with weight (measured in Oz. or g). Aside from it being very confusing, it tends to lead to a number of inaccuracies e.g. although 1ml of water = 1g this is not true at all temperatures (as the density of the water changes) or for different liquids (espresso is much denser than water and so is heavier). It is also worth noting that volume is very inconsistent with espresso because crema varies as beans age.

With this in mind, many people use weight to measure both the beans and the liquid espresso produced. The 2x ratio of espresso to grounds that you mentioned is not a bad place to start but should be using weight and not volume. For example 14g of grounds producing 28g of liquid espresso. The final shot weighing 28g could be anything from 28ml (~1 Fl. Oz.) to 60ml (~2 Fl. Oz.) in volume depending upon the strength of the espresso and the amount of crema.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Originally Posted by Beemer

Starting to make more sense for me now. I have been using the first advice rule I read which was that the final volume was twice the beans weight. Perhaps this is why I have had difficulty in reaching the 60ml in 25 seconds even with what I felt was a good grind.

Jimbow replied: "A lot of people intermix volume (measured in Fl. Oz. or ml) with weight (measured in Oz. or g). Aside from it being very confusing, it tends to lead to a number of inaccuracies e.g. although 1ml of water = 1g this is not true at all temperatures (as the density of the water changes) or for different liquids (espresso is much denser than water and so is heavier). It is also worth noting that volume is very inconsistent with espresso because crema varies as beans age. With this in mind, many people use weight to measure both the beans and the liquid espresso produced. The 2x ratio of espresso to grounds that you mentioned is not a bad place to start but should be using weight and not volume. For example 14g of grounds producing 28g of liquid espresso. The final shot weighing 28g could be anything from 28ml (~1 Fl. Oz.) to 60ml (~2 Fl. Oz.) in volume depending upon the strength of the espresso and the amount of crema. "

Tieing up all the numbers, 18g dose, 30g shot, 18% extraction, 1.65 brew ratio...

Theoretically, if everything falls into place -18g grinds produces 30g of beverage (of varying "ml"), 30g being x1.65 the original dose (or dose being 60% of the beverage) by weight. The beverage now contains 3.2g of dissolved solids (18% extraction yeild from 18g) and Total Dissolved Solids (AKA "strength") make up 10.8% of the final beverage.


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## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

Okay I'll try checking by final weight.


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