# Barista Touch single wall basket capacity



## Salmon (Oct 31, 2019)

Hi,

I could do with some advice on the BT 2 cup single wall basket capacity. Sage says a 2 CUP basket = approx. 15-18g, however to get that weight, i have to grind the beans coarser to prevent the puck slipping around inside the basket, which then results in overextracted coffee due to the coarser grind (even with really hard tamping).

I have produced a finer grind to get proper extraction, but that means I'm using 21-23g of coffee (which sits in line with the razor tool) to get 1:2 ratio espresso in 24-30 seconds.

Is there any issue with this, or am I at risk of damaging something in the machine?

Currently using Pact / Rave SO beans.

Also wondering, whilst posting, about the upper burr - I am currently setting my grind size to 4 with upper burr on factory setting 6, to get that 2:1 ratio with sufficient extraction time. I dont tend to exceed that setting of 4 as grind size is too coarse (I don't quite get the point of grind sizes upto 30 with this!), so played with moving the upper burr to a setting of 5, but then got chirping at a grind size from 7 down when grinding empty , so moved the upper burr back to factory 6. Not sure I'm going to fuss with adjusting the upper burr again, but cant understand why settings for an espresso machine go upto 30 if I cant use the grind size above 4 - any ideas?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Grind size can be very influenced bu the beans you are using which sound like they are fresh roasted but may not be. 21-23g sounds like a lot in the double to me for any fresh roasted bean.

I don't think that setting conical burrs to chirp is a good idea. Both Sage grinders I have had sounded a little busy when run until empty at a setting of 1 and run clear above that possibly a bit iffy on that aspect at a setting of 2 on the SGP but definitely clear at 3. The SGP is very similar to what you are using. Both came like this.

Can't see anything you are doing which might damage anything other than making conical burrs chirp.

I found that the razor tool left a reasonable dose on my ordinary BE. Bit more could be added or less. The step on the razor tool on that is about 6.5mm, suspect it's actually 1/4" and it should be used square to the basket not tilted.

Single held 9 to 10g for me, depending on the bean.

John

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## Salmon (Oct 31, 2019)

Thanks, that's really helpful. Yes, the beans are fresh - current ones are now 10 days old from roast.

I tried dosing 18g a few times, but the puck just comes out too wet and has slipped around in the basket. I have managed to get down to 19.5g dose with 38-41g extracted coffee without any problems, so content with this as body and taste is good.

I cant put the grind size any higher than the setting on 4 though with any bean I've used - range of medium - dark roasts, as the flow rate is just too fast - and its pouring a 1:2 ratio in less than 20 seconds. I cant hear any chirping when beans are going through, and avoid it running empty- maybe this will settle over time.

I'm miffed by the razor tool - when I tamp, the puck consistently tamps below the razor edge by 1-2mm - even have a distribution tool and this also tamps below the razor. I assume the razor tool is to ensure a max height of the puck to stop coffee expanding to press against the showerhead and anything lower is fine? The only way I get upto the razor is by increasing the dose, which will bring me back to the original issue of having 21g+ in the basket.

I havent tried a single basket - will do that to test as well - should give me a better indication if its the bean density or the basket capacity.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Going on the ordinary BE the razor tool left a very slightly low fill height. I'd often increase the dose but it has to be done at a fraction of a gram at a time. At some point the used puck would stick to the shower screen. Slightly more than that would stop this from happening. Mostly done to get maximum taste out of the single. It works but at some point where the dose is too high taste drops off as the grinds can't expand enough when the water goes in.

Fine grinding and too low a fill height usually result in a wet puck. Firm tamping may help.

Once I was used to the machine I used the razor tool to tune for any new bean I tried. It worked for me. Main reason for doing this is that the output from the grinder changes as the setting is changed as does the quantity of grinds needed for the same fill height. That establish a weight for the beans I was using that I might change later. It does vary for different beans. Their density varies. Switching to the dual boiler has been a pain in this area as the razor doesn't for some reason work so well.

To be honest in your case I would be inclined to use what the razor tool leaves. I'd expect to be able to use up to 1 to 2g less without causing any problems. Maybe 1g more if needed. Things as would be expected get tighter on the single. I make 10oz americano. It needs a powerful bean to make decent drinks with it.

There is one pretty easy way to spot being over filled as Sage use a hex socket screw. Distinct signs of the shower screen fixing screw on a used puck especially the hole in it. Slight signs *can* mean that's the true real max capacity or any signs of the screw at all may be a little too much. The pucks will also get harder to knock out as more is put in.  Initially I had some sledge hammer jobs while messing around.

What matters really is taste not some specific ratio or time. It can pay to look at variations in this area. Longer or shorter times and lower or higher ratios. Takes time, uses lots of beans but it's the only way to do it.

A link to the beans you are using would be interesting as this all seems a bit odd to me but saying a basket holds exactly Xg is misleading. Lots of people do but in practice it will vary. However lots have never used a razor tool.

John

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## Salmon (Oct 31, 2019)

Hex screw wasn't leaving a dent on the puck at higher mass doses, but you could see a fine imprint detail of the shower screen. Puck before extraction was sitting flush with the razor with those higher doses, so seems like the coffee had the right amount of room to expand, but also seems to be working fine with 19.5g - 20g, so not that big an issue I guess - the coffee tastes good which is what counts.

So far I have been using the following beans:

Guatemala Bosques: https://ravecoffee.co.uk/collections/single-origin-coffee/products/guatemala-bosques-de-san-francisco?variant=19388682141750

III Espresso: https://www.djangocoffeeco.com/collections/coffee-beans-online-order-coffee-online

Santa Rosa: https://www.pactcoffee.com/coffees/santa-rosa-espresso

Interesting that the razor doesnt work for the DB the same - I assume Sage would have done significant testing with the razor on DB 58mm larger basket and 53mm BP/BT/BE range - it seems odd Sage have different basket sizes quite frankly - don't understand why.

Onwards with experimenting though. Also really need to try working on some latte art as the BT is very impressive with the steam wand and would be a shame not to enjoy some milk based drinks too!


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## idekov (Aug 21, 2019)

ajohn said:


> Going on the ordinary BE the razor tool left a very slightly low fill height. I'd often increase the dose but it has to be done at a fraction of a gram at a time. At some point the used puck would stick to the shower screen. Slightly more than that would stop this from happening. Mostly done to get maximum taste out of the single. It works but at some point where the dose is too high taste drops off as the grinds can't expand enough when the water goes in.
> 
> Fine grinding and too low a fill height usually result in a wet puck. Firm tamping may help.


 Hi John, I can confirm exactly the same behavior for the Sage Bambino for single wall single dose basket. Using razor - results in wet puck, putting a little more - the puck sticks to the shower screen, level to the top of the single basket and then tamp - dry puck. The problem is that with some local roasted beans - especially if they are fresh, when I fill the basket to the top it takes 11g and the coffee fills too strong. If you can share in such case, what should be better to grind finer and fill less - 10g or stay with the coarser grind 11g dose that produces dry puck, but with clear marks of the shower screen on it? From taste point of view, the first comes with more crema a little over extracted (taste a little bitter) and the second fills balanced less crema and too strong.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

You should use weight not levelling grinds to the top of the basket. Levelling the grinds like this works on some machines in terms of usually being about right on typical 58mm basket machines - I'd say not on the sage DB though. Your post suggests you are doing that as you wont be able to fit the portafilter on if tamped to the top of the basket and if the razor is used after tamping it leaves the grinds about 6.5mm down. Suspect it's actually 1/4".

11g in the single tamped correctly wouldn't surprise me. Beans vary. I was using a very low density one and 9.5g was suitable for it, that was a very slight over fill. With this bean that left very slight signs of the hole in the shower screen screw.  Doesn't work out with all of them and no signs of the screw at all can be better. This area is just an indication really. It just says may have too much in.

To change taste I usually work on 3 approx ratios 2, 2.5 and 3 and make a choice on the results. On the BE I usually found shot times over 30sec were best - for me. There are no rules really. Sometimes reducing shot time below the usual 30sec could pay. Generally if to strong I would reduce the dose. Problem really is that the Bambino is a different machine. The DB is too and what went on in my BE didn't carry over to it. There is no way of knowing what Sage have done when a new machine comes out.

Bit of an edit.

Pucks always get wet at some point when the dose of grinds is reduced.  Some people say they are making a drink not a puck. I'm inclined to feel that Sage should make more basket sizes for all of their machines.

John

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