# Sub £100 espresso machines anyone tried one?



## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

So with lockdown continuing and Gaggia classic soaring in price on the used market (apparently) 🤷‍♂️ I have seen a couple of sub £100 home machines."? Also seen some older use machines for similar.

Gaggia Cubika from marketplace etc

Brand new have found 3........

https://www.box.co.uk/CEP5152B-Beko-Barista-15-Bar-Espresso-Maker-(CEP5_2939833.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw7-P1BRA2EiwAXoPWA6qJ07GF4thH271rtToQJBDSndHdbutSS9oocX2DBl7qmo2jjukIhBoCVKMQAvD_BwE

https://www.ikohs.com/uk/buy-espresso-machines/56084-barismatic-20b-espresso-coffee-machine.html?id_c=110446&gclid=CjwKCAjw7-P1BRA2EiwAXoPWA9xF_lNVdsiWF1sYqtkydTe9USm5CHm3AFPfHqKrfOo3RVL1sIcwKRoCmjMQAvD_BwE

https://www.ikohs.com/uk/buy-espresso-machines/7368-thera-retro-espress-coffee-maker.html?id_c=16968

All under £70 delivered! so for those on a really tight budget are they any good?

I'm almost tempted to get one and if this carries on much longer I might!


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## Gilly (Jul 29, 2019)

Sorry to rain on your parade but where a decent espresso is concerned I'm afraid you get what you pay for.

The reason the Classic has such status is because of its reliability , ease of use, quality and its longlivity. As a small domestic machine and paired with a decent burr grinder it simply can't be beaten.

Its given coffee lovers all over the world excellent service and enjoyable AMERICANOs/ lattes/ flat whites etc since it's inception.

Look at any forum or review to see for yourself.


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## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

Yes I had one, used it once and now its in the garage, you get what you pay for..


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Dalerst said:


> Yes I had one, used it once and now its in the garage, you get what you pay for..


 Which one?


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

Delonghi Dedica with a non-pressurised basket and a decent grinder can make really quite reasonable espresso/cappucino etc

Can be had new for £140 ish I think


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

> Look at any forum or review to see for yourself.


 Are you referring to the classic? or the beko as it gets great reviews 8.7/10 average and lots and lots of positive feedback


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

Second hand dedica for £85 or best offer

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184277646862


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

grumble said:


> Second hand dedica for £85 or best offer
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184277646862


 Collection in person only... London!


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## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

HDAV said:


> Which one?


 It was some crap from aldi, cost £75.


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

If those machines come with a pressurised basket which I'm guessing they will, you could try and find out if you can get a single walled basket to fit. Otherwise you will be limited to pre ground 'espresso' really (or kinda wasting specialty beans by not being able to grind fine enough without it choking up).


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Info is hard to find hence the question 🤷‍♂️


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## pd53 (May 21, 2020)

So avoid the Thera Retro then...? Contemplating a Gaggia Gran Prestige or the Thera Retro. A Swan SK221100BLN has also come up in my research.

https://www.ikohs.com/uk/buy-espresso-machines/7368-thera-retro-espress-coffee-maker.html?id_c=16968&gclid=Cj0KCQjwzZj2BRDVARIsABs3l9JIp4sTM6yVde-alQFKJv5wgpAyjGndphsqinMQzulwcisaFrCG-SAaAgkqEALw_wcB

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Swan-SK22110BLN-Espresso-Machine-Pressure/dp/B07KGSF6DJ

https://www.gaggiadirect.com/manual-machine-shop.html#!/Gran-Gaggia-Prestige/p/21440866/category=28034025


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

pd53 said:


> So avoid the Thera Retro then...? Contemplating a Gaggia Gran Prestige or the Thera Retro. A Swan SK221100BLN has also come up in my research.
> 
> https://www.ikohs.com/uk/buy-espresso-machines/7368-thera-retro-espress-coffee-maker.html?id_c=16968&gclid=Cj0KCQjwzZj2BRDVARIsABs3l9JIp4sTM6yVde-alQFKJv5wgpAyjGndphsqinMQzulwcisaFrCG-SAaAgkqEALw_wcB
> 
> ...


 All to be avoided ideally.

If you are prepared to pay 150 for a machine I would look for a used Classic. I believe there is one on the forum for sale section currently under that price.

That said, I believe it is possible to remove the pressurisation system from the Gaggia baskets and then you can at least feed it some proper freshly ground fine coffee and make something acceptable. I am unsure as to if you are able to adjust brewing pressure on the machines so you will likely still be brewing at a non optimal pump pressure and the machine does not have a three way solenoid so you will end up with wet pucks but it will be better than no espresso!


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

pd53 said:


> So avoid the Thera Retro then...? Contemplating a Gaggia Gran Prestige or the Thera Retro. A Swan SK221100BLN has also come up in my research.


 What exactly is your end goal? Is it great espresso? Is it a small cup of dark liquid? Is it a new hobby? Is it a cheap small Kitchen gadget?


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## pd53 (May 21, 2020)

HDAV said:


> What exactly is your end goal? Is it great espresso? Is it a small cup of dark liquid? Is it a new hobby? Is it a cheap small Kitchen gadget?


 I left my Aeropress in work and it's unlikely I'll be there for a while.
I'm getting bored of the restrictiveness of Nespresso.

I have a cafetière for which I bought really nice coffee for from a local independent coffee shop, but it's not espresso. But the nice coffee has encouraged me to look past Nespresso.

So I basically want a change / improvement from Nespresso, the hit of an espresso, and also have the option to buy different coffees from local independent coffee shops, or even illy, Lavazza, segafredo etc.

I don't want to break the bank. I want a reliable, pretty idiot proof, home espresso machine. I know the Gaggia name, so assumed it was the best bet. Maybe I'm asking for too much? But I found this forum on google, so hopefully I've come to the right place! I would way weigh out coffee to try to get the taste etc correct, but I'm not necessarily looking to get down the coffee rabbit hole of the precision that would win me barista championships.


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## Moparman (Jun 8, 2019)

Maybe try a Gaggia Baby? It's essentially a pared down Classic but without the cult following. A rarity these days, but quite a capable little machine.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Ok I don't think a "cheap pressurised" machine is the answer for to you. A gaggia classic Can be had for under £150 used and will do all you need and much more and will likely be worth similar in a few years time, more importantly still be working parts easy to source and plentiful as are upgrades if you desire......

you could just buy another Aeropress for £25 and a grinder and explore the huge number of local and mail order roasters (check out the beans forum)

gaggia classic pre 2015 is the de facto answer. There are others racilio Silva etc sage BE ( I think that the one)


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

pd53 said:


> I left my Aeropress in work and it's unlikely I'll be there for a while.
> I'm getting bored of the restrictiveness of Nespresso.
> 
> I have a cafetière for which I bought really nice coffee for from a local independent coffee shop, but it's not espresso. But the nice coffee has encouraged me to look past Nespresso.
> ...


 You can absolutely produce nice coffee and not get too bogged down in the intricate detail if that is the way you want to go.

You will however need to stump up for the basics including machine, grinder and tamper at the absolute minimum. Looking at new equipment your entry point will be around £600 for a machine and grinder capable of making real espresso.

There are other options such as the gaggia you are looking at but the pressurised basket will really limit the quality of what you can achieve. They are really built to be a nice domestic appliance for the casual coffee drinker rather than a true espresso machine.

My final suggestion is to track down some quality Nespresso pods. There are a few companies doing super high quality freshly roasted coffee in pods like Colonna. Perhaps this is worth considering?


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> My final suggestion is to track down some quality Nespresso pods. There are a few companies doing super high quality freshly roasted coffee in pods like Colonna. Perhaps this is worth considering?


 I actually ordered some of these for a friend and they have become his favourite https://cliftoncoffee.co.uk/shop/coffee/blends/village-capsules/

but a Decent machine and grinder will give you far more options


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

The key to this seems to be: is there an intermediate stage in espresso quality between pressurised basket coffee (eg Nespresso) and an entry level unpressurized system (gaggia classic)?

I'm not sure


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

I'm guessing some will think me deluded but I maintain I can make reasonable espresso/latte etc with my Delonghi Dedica with an unpressurized basket and a decent hand grinder.

Doesn't mean I don't want to upgrade but it's already better than what you get in a lot of cafes.


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## pd53 (May 21, 2020)

grumble said:


> I'm guessing some will think me deluded but I maintain I can make reasonable espresso/latte etc with my Delonghi Dedica with an unpressurized basket and a decent hand grinder.
> 
> Doesn't mean I don't want to upgrade but it's already better than what you get in a lot of cafes.


 I was reading about a de longhi dedica here - https://coffeeblog.co.uk/best-home-espresso-machines/

How does it compare to the £149 Gran Gaggia or the £199 Carezza Style?

https://www.gaggiadirect.com/gaggia-carezza-range.html

The advice seems to be at least the Gaggia classic..!


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## pd53 (May 21, 2020)

Michael87 said:


> The key to this seems to be: is there an intermediate stage in espresso quality between pressurised basket coffee (eg Nespresso) and an entry level unpressurized system (gaggia classic)?
> 
> I'm not sure


 What is he best value machine (under £250) that I can make espresso with nice quality beans?

I don't want to become a barista or spend hundreds. Just a reliable trustworthy machine.


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

I can't tell you anything about the Gaggias you mention but looking at them I would guess they'd be similar. They will all come with a pressurised basket designed for pre ground coffee. If you want to try some good specialty coffee you will need a good burr grinder and an unpressurized basket

The Gaggia Classic is considered the lowest priced 'proper' espresso machine by enthusiasts, but most people seem to end up modding them considerably, and they are no longer super cheap second hand.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Michael87 said:


> The key to this seems to be: is there an intermediate stage in espresso quality between pressurised basket coffee (eg Nespresso) and an entry level unpressurized system (gaggia classic)?
> 
> I'm not sure


 I know what you are getting at but you have the terminology slightly mixed up. Nespresso and other systems like it use pods. Pressurised basket refers to espresso machines whereby the portafilter has a system in place (usually some sort of sprung valve) to artificially control the rate of coffee flow and create pressure in the basket. They do this so you can use preground supermarket coffee rather than having to buy a proper grinder and grind fresh and fine enough to create that pressure in the basket naturally to get the right extraction.

The results with pressure baskets are ok at best. I would probably take a pod system over it personally.

As Grumble said above you can remove the pressurisation system on some machines (some it just a case of changing basket, others you need to remove bits from the portafilter). You will then need a grinder that is capable of grinding coffee fine enough to produce 'proper' espresso. I am sure you can get some reasonable results by doing this but please don't think removing the pressure system in itself will improve results. If you were to remove it and continue to use store bought ground coffee the results would almost certainly be worse.

So is removing the pressurisation system a middle ground? Possibly but you still need a capable grinder so you are looking at the machine - Gaggia Gran Prestige £150 plus a decent grinder Eureka Mignon Manuale £250 and a tamper £20 so you are still up at the £400+ range. Given you can pick up a used Classic for the same money as the Gran Prestige or Dedica and then you get a proper commercial portafilter and the advantages of an adjustable pressure valve and 3 way solenoid I would go that route.

Or stick with pods if that is too much.

Congrats if you got this far.

I do not have espresso machines at your intended budget @pd53 but if you have any questions feel free to call us.

TLDR - There probably isn't such thing as a 'cheap' entry level.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Trouble with a lot of the pressurised machines (Actually double wall basket machine) is they run at higher pressure often claim 15 bar (this is to get the double wall basket to work) the Gaggia classic pre 2015 can be adjustment to a more reasonable 8-9 Bar pressure, almost half the 15 Bar used for many double wall basket machines. Most of the cheaper machines even if you can get a single wall basket (unpressurised) you cannot adjust the pressure. Why does that matter? Well making coffee is about brewing & mixing the right amount of coffee beans (in the appropriate form) with the right amount of water for the right amount of time (Temperature counts too)

If pumping water through the coffee at almost double the ideal pressure you wont get the correct brew, you can vary the other elements to compensate, to a degree but the results are likely to be unsatisfactory.

You can of course pump water through using a pressurised (double wall basket) or a single wall basket and something will come come out the other end, it may even be something you are happy to consume. If you mainly drink flavoured milk based drinks such as vanilla latte or similar then its probably not going to make a big difference, after all most people are happy with nescafe..................

 The cheap pressured un-modifiable machines may be cheaper but the journey ends where it starts or very close by. Others Classic, Silvia can go further down the road (more time effort and money required) and if you dont want to add time effort or money then stick to capsules they spent millions to develop the capsule machines and capsules and capsule recipes (not mention millions on marketing them) to appeal to the widest cross section of consumer society (not to a few "enthusiasts" who are the smallest % of the most demanding customers..........)

The pod machines exist because making good espresso isn't easy and 99% cant be bothered with the faff it takes (I'm probably in that 99%)

Good video here


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Gaggia Baby is similar internals to the Classic but in a smaller plastic case, some other differences too i think but still capable of being modded to run 8-9 bar

Should add plenty of people have these pressurised machines and are happy with what they produce, lots are also bought/gifted used for bit and then sold/binned/ sent to the loft to languish replaced with pod machines.....

But choose your pod wisely Tassimo anyone? Dolce Gusto?

Now ESE.................. https://trustedcoffeereviews.co.uk/what-are-ese-coffee-pods-and-should-you-buy-them/


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

I'd agree with all that blackcatcoffee said although I use a hand grinder which was approx £140 on sale which brings the cost down a little. It does get tedious making rounds of 4 double espressos though I have to admit.

TBF I would have gone down the Gaggia Classic route but SWMBO said they're too ugly.  I see a Mara X and Niche in my future!


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@HDAV A bit left field, but do you really need an espresso machine or a setup to make better coffee and see what you really want long term?

If you want thicker dark strong coffee to use with milk a lot of people like Moka pots. I thought James Hoffman's video was quite fun in terms of cappuccino with no espresso machine. He did shame me with making better latte art than I can sometimes using my proper machine...

Espresso is a wonderful faff but pricey, agree with @BlackCatCoffee that it is nudging north of £450 with accessories typically.

Handgrinder - £60+ SH/£80+ new like an Aerspeed

Moka Pot - £20

Cheap cafetière as frother £5 or a Bellmans steamer £70 ish


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Northern_Monkey said:


> @HDAV A bit left field, but do you really need an espresso machine or a setup to make better coffee and see what you really want long term?


 I think you can probably make better coffee with an aeropress and a hand grinder however that's faff too people want convenience not graft..... gadget culture

Thats why capsules are so popular


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@HDAV - Maybe different rather than better per se? 😉

Hard to get strong/short enough coffee to cut through milk from immersion or filter brewers. Moka pots are a stop gap if you don't have the space/cash for a full on machine but still want a stronger base for a mocked up cap/latte.

Pods are definitely not my thing, I wouldn't consider getting one for a few reasons.

I really like coffee and love tinkering/kit hobbies, so half the fun is in the making/experimenting as well as the tasting.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Northern_Monkey said:


> Pods are *definitely not my thing*, I wouldn't consider getting one for a few reasons.
> 
> I really like coffee and love *tinkering/kit hobbies, so half the fun is in the making/experimenting* as well as the tasting.


 And pod machines aren't aimed at you they are aimed at the 99% who want a drink not a hobby.....just like the £100 machines....


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

Fair enough, still makes me sad seeing non repairable machines go to landfill though 😢


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Northern_Monkey said:


> Fair enough, still makes me sad seeing non repairable machines go to landfill though 😢


 NO reason they can't be repaired or recycled.....


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## pd53 (May 21, 2020)

I just bit the bullet and bought the new 2019 Gaggia Classic, instead of the pressurised Gran gaggia I was thinking about.

i did read about buying an old machine and doing it up, but I'm useless at that stuff and I'm not at that level of tinkering with coffee machines.

From discovering this forum it looks like the start of a new journey...!


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

pd53 said:


> From discovering this forum it looks like the start of a new journey...!


 Welcome to the rabbit hole.......


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## pd53 (May 21, 2020)

Just found this - Sage SES500BSS Bambino Plus Coffee Machine for £329

https://www.johnlewis.com/sage-ses500bss-bambino-plus-coffee-machine-silver/p3779133?sku=237691092&s_ppc=2dx92700053277635646&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gclid=Cj0KCQjwn7j2BRDrARIsAHJkxmz6qAsvzaGYqYIR8jaOfhNp3UiqjCXT1e-ClJWAIHzFMu2GFubZHmIaAhl9EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Obviously this thread started about sub £100 machines and the conclusion was that they're not great!

How does this Sage machine compare to the Gaggia Classic? Have I made the right decision to go with the Gaggia?!


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@pd53 - I think you made the right choice, especially if you buy the connectors from @MrShades

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/49601-gaggia-classic-2018-pro-eu-timer-disable/?do=embed


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

pd53 said:


> I just bit the bullet and bought the new 2019 Gaggia Classic, instead of the pressurised Gran gaggia I was thinking about.
> 
> i did read about buying an old machine and doing it up, but I'm useless at that stuff and I'm not at that level of tinkering with coffee machines.
> 
> From discovering this forum it looks like the start of a new journey...!


 You have made a great choice.

The Gran Gaggia etc are kitchen appliances, the Classic is a true espresso machine.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I know the classics last yonks but i sold a classic and bought a sage duo temp pro

And much prefer it

If your going to add a pid to a brand new classic then you can look at some of the lelit pid machines


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Cuprajake said:


> I know the classics last yonks but i sold a classic and bought a sage duo temp pro
> 
> And much prefer it
> 
> If your going to add a pid to a brand new classic then you can look at some of the lelit pid machines


 except that your Sage Duo temp pro will be broken and not working, and sat in a skip a long time before the Classic will.

It's called "Classic" for a reason!

...and I personally wouldn't consider the cheaper Lelit machines due to the 57mm (rather than standard 58mm) portafilters. It's mainly the significantly more expensive and E61 based machines that use the standard 58mm.


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@Cuprajake - I will double check the links, but it shouldn't have been to the PID thread.

@MrShades was/is selling a very reasonably priced set of jumper cables to bypass the euro regs auto off. Small mod but super useful if you want to use a timer plug in the morning or leave on in the day.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

All valid points

Its personal opinion also

Id guess most dont keep the classic longer than 3yrs and those that do spend a good few hundred ontop.

Not everyone wants to rip a machine open and start rewiring stuff.

Was just another option.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Sage wasn't an option when I bought my classic it doesn't have a pid, the mods were £25 all in was under £200 new 🙈


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@HDAV - Just how "classic" is your Classic? 😉

Wish they still came in at that price point.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Northern_Monkey said:


> @HDAV - Just how "classic" is your Classic? 😉
> 
> Wish they still came in at that price point.


 Bought brand new in 2012 for £169 with a pair of le creuset espresso mugs and the rancilio steam wand was £15 spent £232 in total with milk jug, tamper, thermometer (£10!) etc

i found the paperwork when I got it out the shed at the time £169 was steep they were £150 a few months before.

it also went to a place in Wrexham under warranty and had a load of new parts fitted.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

MrShades said:


> except that your Sage Duo temp pro will be broken and not working, and sat in a skip a long time before the Classic will.
> 
> It's called "Classic" for a reason!
> 
> ...and I personally wouldn't consider the cheaper Lelit machines due to the 57mm (rather than standard 58mm) portafilters. It's mainly the significantly more expensive and E61 based machines that use the standard 58mm.


 What's the failure rate of Sages? Is there any data to back up that assertion?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Not sure?

If you buy it at the right time or place you can get between 2 and 3yrs warrenty

Theres just not a lot of love for the sage.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Cuprajake said:


> Not sure?
> 
> If you buy it at the right time or place you can get between 2 and 3yrs warrenty
> 
> Theres just not a lot of love for the sage.


 There's not, but after reading around and a couple of conversations with a couple of experts everyone on this board would recognise, I get this forum a bit more now. Suffice to say a large pinch of salt is required and not just with Sage. There's some great advice from some experienced users, people that are happy to help, new users that are sharing their experience, but then there's the agendas, the snobbery, the received wisdom and the advice based on outright bribery mixed in.


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## LiquidLogic (Apr 16, 2020)

CocoLoco said:


> Suffice to say a large pinch of salt is required and not just with Sage.


That's the internet..... you can't automatically assume anyone on any forum is correct. It's all about weighing up the evidence in front of you.

I was on the fence between the Gaggia Classic and a Sage. I couldn't see any evidence that backs up the "Sage is unreliable" anywhere I've looked.

What tipped me over the edge to the Gaggia though, was that spare parts are readily available for the Gaggia and machines from 15+ years ago are still working!

It's obviously not a kitchen appliance, it's a machine and I think that's where the "enthusiasm" comes from.

Edit: changed some wording/tone.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

LiquidLogic said:


> That's the internet..... you can't automatically assume anyone on any forum is correct. It's all about weighing up the evidence in front of you.
> 
> I was on the fence between the Gaggia Classic and a Sage. I couldn't see any evidence that backs up the "Sage is unreliable" anywhere I've looked.
> 
> ...


 The 'machine vs kitchen appliance' is just another way to run the Sage down, a snide jibe. Most people haven't a clue how to fix a espresso machine be it Gaggia, Sage or whatever. Availability of parts doesn't do you much good when you have to send it somewhere anyway. As the parts aren't as common, you may have less choices where you you send it (this is assuming it breaks down in the first place) but from what I've been told you can get if fixed if you need to (and of course the first 2/3 years it gets done for free which won't happen with the Gaggia). And like me you couldn't find any evidence that Sages are particularly unreliable either.

That Gaggias last 15/20 years has no bearing on how good the coffee is, in fact it's partly why I didn't get one, (besides the amazing Black Friday price I got my BE for), it's old, you need to mod/improve it to bring it in line with the Sage out the box. Of course you can beat the Sage by buying a better grinder, although the experts I spoke to put me straight on that too.

Gaggia + grinder is a nice little set up, particularly when one is concerned with cost. But having spoken to recognised experts about Sage puts some of these Sage comments in perspective. Couple that with 'it's the internet', you know, the usual 'batting for ones team', snobbery etc you get and I might disregard some comments that I didn't the start of my journey.


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## LiquidLogic (Apr 16, 2020)

CocoLoco said:


> The 'machine vs kitchen appliance' is just another way to run the Sage down, a snide jibe.


 It's undoubtedly not. If nearly every part is available as a spare vs almost no spare parts available, I'd say that's crossed the line from appliance to machine.



CocoLoco said:


> Most people haven't a clue how to fix a espresso machine be it Gaggia, Sage or whatever. Availability of parts doesn't do you much good when you have to send it somewhere anyway.


 Immaterial whether the end user is doing the work or a repair centre it's a factor that should be considered. If the end user is willing to do the work, then Gaggia is night and day better compared to Sage on this front..... you can't write that off as an unimportant factor.



CocoLoco said:


> That Gaggias last 15/20 years has no bearing on how good the coffee is, in fact it's partly why I didn't get one, (besides the amazing Black Friday price I got my BE for), it's old, you need to mod/improve it to bring it in line with the Sage out the box. Of course you can beat the Sage by buying a better grinder, although the experts I spoke to put me straight on that too.


 Not sure why taste/reliability are a metric that should go together.

Yes the sage is slightly better out the box and produces coffee with less "fuss". The Gaggia has more long term flexibility to tweak what you are doing with it.



CocoLoco said:


> Gaggia + grinder is a nice little set up, particularly when one is concerned with cost.


 Gaggia and a good grinder most likely comes in at more expensive than a Sage BE, at least new..... that was my conclusion.

In my case I went for the Niche and a Classic. I now have a grinder that I will likely never need to upgrade and isn't attached to my machine. This means a machine upgrade down the road is easier/less expenditure; big plus.

Mud slinging either way is daft, in the end; it's different strokes for different folks. Do you want something that is flexible, you can tinker with, you can refine, upgrade etc etc. Or do you want a mostly set and forget machine? A friend has an Oracle touch and it produces some great coffee. That set up works for him and I like it, but a BE/Pro etc isn't for everyone.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Proving my point in lots of places there, wrong in others, but I'm sure people are bored of the discussion, it's an old one. Useful for new people reading the forum though maybe. Enjoy your coffee.


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## LiquidLogic (Apr 16, 2020)

CocoLoco said:


> Proving my point in lots of places there, wrong in others, but I'm sure people are bored of the discussion, it's an old one. Useful for new people reading the forum though maybe. Enjoy your coffee.


Well a lot is opinion or situation based, so not sure how "wrong" anyone can be in that debate.
Would gladly listen to where I might be miles off though, always happy to learn.

Just finishing some Black Cat and replacement from HasBean on the way! Should be good!

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Sage / Classic is the coffee worlds Apple / Android 🤣🤣

So long as you are happy with the results you get then fantastic. I would just try not to get upset when people do not agree with your choice. That is the way life is.

People come to the forum for advice and this one comes up a lot. You may feel that Sage gets bashed more often than other brands but the question comes up so frequently and so many people are familiar with the Classic and have positive experience with it.

I do not sell or own either any more but I have a firm favourite for reasons which I have stated in the past. I would like to think they are objective but I certainly have a soft spot for the Classic as it was my first proper intro in to the world of home espresso.

To each his own as we have said!


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Sage / Classic is the coffee worlds Apple / Android 🤣🤣
> 
> <snip>


 you mean they're both rubbish? 😛


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## negativesentiment (Jun 3, 2020)

Moparman said:


> Maybe try a Gaggia Baby? It's essentially a pared down Classic but without the cult following. A rarity these days, but quite a capable little machine.


 Have seen mixed things about the baby, something about the boiler being sub par. Would you recommend it?


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## Moparman (Jun 8, 2019)

I've never owned one but a good friend of mine did. Truth be told the coffee it produced was on a par with what my old Gaggia Classic used to make. He eventually "traded up" to a bean to cup machine and it's not a patch on the Baby. Sure there are better machines out there but at less than £100 I reckon a Gaggia Baby is worth a try. Partner it with a suitably capable grinder and use fresh beans for a solid budget setup.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Our leader has spoken......In all seriousness though, interesting video.

I wonder if James Hoffman frequents this forum.


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

I was wondering that too, after the regrinding beans thread


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## Oli986 (Apr 24, 2020)

> 4 hours ago, BlackCatCoffee said:
> 
> Our leader has spoken......In all seriousness though, interesting video.
> 
> I wonder if James Hoffman frequents this forum.


 Yeah I just watched this, quite funny! His tasting reactions are priceless. And £60 being the cheapest machine! Must have a short life expectancy 💀


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

It looks like the minimum viable product was the Delonghi, he wasn't happy about it though! 😂

With ones at this price range, it feels similar to the sub £100 full suspension "bike shaped objects" you can buy from Halfords. People won't really service them, or if they find out about the cost/complexity of doing so it just means scrapping them over the equivalent of a new seal or switch when it's £70 to service a £100 bike.

I wish they made them out of metal a bit more on the cheaper end nowadays. I refurbished a 10 year+ "Gaggia Coffee Deluxe" for a friend, super scaled/neglected and not working (£20 ish off eBay). Cost me £10 in new seals and an afternoon to give someone a cracking little first machine.

Edit: Checked old Gaggia Coffee Deluxe price from 2005 - in today's money it would be about £225-250 so not a fair comparison really.


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

Just watched Hoffman's, was interesting find 😂


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