# Noob Question for Americano



## Spy (May 12, 2016)

Hi all,

I will apologise up front. Please forgive what may seem a very basic, noob, question but I have never owned a 'manual' espresso machine, my B2C did it all for me.

I mainly drink Americanos and I understand the recommended procedure is to pour your espresso shot and then top it up with hot water.

Obviously you can top up with hot water from a kettle but as an alternative, can you get an espresso machine like the Silvia or Sage Duo Temp to dispense hot water after pouring the espresso shot ?

If you can, would there be any deal between pouring the espresso and dispensing hot water (which I would assume would come from the milk/froth wand ?

Thanks


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

There is a pearl of wisdom around theses parts which is often doled out which says 'never use your espresso machine as a kettle', however I have been known to do this in the past, and the reason for this is that there is nicer water in the espresso machine than the kettle (the kettle serves many purposes in our household, if I put bottled water in there I would most likely be skint, so brita filtered has to do)

This was when I had a sylvia, as it can be convinced to produce hot water at the right temperature (single boiler), now I have a DB, that water would be at steam temperature, so its a no go (could dispense from the group head, but its a bit of a faff).

The downsides of this are basically the amount of time it takes to produce back to back drinks (for the boiler to come back to temp), but speed with most things is an issue with a single boiler.


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## Spy (May 12, 2016)

Thanks.

So as regards the Silvia, you can pour a shot and then immediately use the steam wand to dispense hot water ?

If yes, could you reasonably do two americano cups back to back ?


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Yes, but the recovery time is a bit sluggish (I had auber PID, so could see the boiler temp)

I used to pull two shots, then top them both up from the steam wand, it didn't take forever, but it wasn't quick.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

UbiquitousPhoton said:


> There is a pearl of wisdom around theses parts which is often doled out which says 'never use your espresso machine as a kettle', however I have been known to do this in the past, and the reason for this is that there is nicer water in the espresso machine than the kettle (the kettle serves many purposes in our household, if I put bottled water in there I would most likely be skint, so brita filtered has to do)
> 
> This was when I had a sylvia, as it can be convinced to produce hot water at the right temperature (single boiler), now I have a DB, that water would be at steam temperature, so its a no go (could dispense from the group head, but its a bit of a faff).
> 
> The downsides of this are basically the amount of time it takes to produce back to back drinks (for the boiler to come back to temp), but speed with most things is an issue with a single boiler.


So why do they fit a water tap if its not to be used for water?

I use mine to make long blacks and tea, no problems yet.


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Like I say, I always did, but it seems some round here frown on it


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## Spy (May 12, 2016)

UbiquitousPhoton said:


> Yes, but the recovery time is a bit sluggish (I had auber PID, so could see the boiler temp)
> 
> I used to pull two shots, then top them both up from the steam wand, it didn't take forever, but it wasn't quick.


Thx. When you say it wasn't quick, how long roughly between pouring the shots and being able to get hot water from the steam wand ?

Would a Sage Dup Temp be better/quicker ?


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

This is a complicated question to answer, each machine basically has pros and cons.

Sage Duo Temp Pros

Its a heat exchanger, so will have quicker recovery

Going from brew to steam should also be faster (with single boiler you basically have to change the temperature of the boiler and thus the pressure as well)

Comes with PID built in.

Sylvia Pros

Much more bombproof (10 years plus life expectancy, check the weight difference for one)

'Normal' size baskets (can use normal tampers and VST baskets)

much more moddable

It depends on what you want. They are about the same price but very different machines. Pulling two (large) americanos (20g into 40g / bucket cup) would take me 10 mins or so, including tamp, grind etc. Some people could most likely do it faster, and I was a bit of a stickler about having the temp exactly right, which given the thermal probe is on the top of the boiler is probably concentrating in the wrong area.

Without a PID, you will basically be temperature surfing and hoping, which is one thing I hated about the sylvia. PID obviously costs money, but you will end up with a much better machine as a result. If the idea of adding your own PID terrifies you, then the DTP would probably be the better machine for you, however one point to make is that I do not think the lifespans of the two machines are comparable.

YMMV - I have never used the DTP - I was seriously tempted by the dual boiler, but ended up going much higher in the end. I had 7 good years with a syvlia though, so I may be biased


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## Spy (May 12, 2016)

Yes, I understand for steaming, the Sage would be much quicker but with the Silvia, as I am looking for hot water as opposed to steam, I would have thought I do not need to wait for it to get up to steam temp and hence quicker ?

If I go for a used Silvia, I was thinking of the meCoffee Bluetooth PID.


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Yeah, getting (back) to brew temp is significantly quicker than getting to steam temp. I will admit I didn't steam a whole heap with the Sylvia due to the hassles involved.

When I decided to PID, the only real choice was the Auber, which was a pretty good choice tbh. I have no experience with the meCoffee PID, but it seems people like it







I would be a bit buggered with that one as we are an iOS family though. One thing to be said for the sylvia as well is that the internals are actually pretty simple when it comes down to it, which means that modding and self maintenance can be done without a huge amount of knowledge (although I would expect you to know the basics first).


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I reckon i would go for the sage through lakeland over a 2nd hand silvia and pid.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

lets keep it simple. Pour your shot, remove the pf and puck, purge 10 mls through, wipe the screen if you want, then put your cup back under and top up with water through the group head. It will still be too hot to drink immediately but cooler than if you reheat it


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## Spy (May 12, 2016)

froggystyle said:


> I reckon i would go for the sage through lakeland over a 2nd hand silvia and pid.


Really ? Why ?

Most people seem to suggest that a Silvia with PID is better than a Sage DTP although a DTP is better than a Silvia without PID


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## UncleJake (Mar 20, 2016)

Trying to work out why you wouldn't use a kettle? If it's a bottled water issue as above - then only use bottled for those coffees - get to know the amount to fill it to.

If you use a kettle you can fill and switch it on, prepare your espressos (if speed is a serious issue, use a large basket - so you can extract enough for 2 Americanos at the same time) by the time you've made your espresso the kettle will be good to go?

My new machine has a water tap - and I've been using it for some Americanos - but I'm becoming convinced it's easier to use the kettle.

The only real advantage to using it for me is that it's already hot - so really good for Tea... But if I'm making espresso - the kettle has plenty of time and I don't have to worry about running the machine dry.


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## Spy (May 12, 2016)

No real reason Uncle Jake, other than it seems logical to me if I have a mahine with water that is already hot, why not use that instead of boiling more water in another machine


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Depends how fresh the water is in your boiler imo .... I have an hx machine, the hot water tap is the same water that's used to make steam ... That water must have been in there for a month. Tastes a little flat in the same way tap water tastes compared to bottled water.

That said ... If I put milk in an Americano, I can't tell the difference. And if I make tea I can tell it's different from the kettle but that's it, it's not worse, it's not better ... It's just different


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## Robbo (Feb 17, 2016)

1. Wipe clean/Flush the brew head

2. Fill cup 250ml cup 3/4 full with hot water straight from brew head (Volvic in the tank)

3. Pull triple shot onto hot water

Whether this is right or wrong it works for me and i get a very tasty brew just the way i like it.


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## Blerkselmans (Mar 29, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> lets keep it simple. Pour your shot, remove the pf and puck, purge 10 mls through, wipe the screen if you want, then put your cup back under and top up with water through the group head. It will still be too hot to drink immediately but cooler than if you reheat it


+1

Works great for me...


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## Spy (May 12, 2016)

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. Looks like there are multiple ways of achieving the result I am after


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

I strongly suggest you try and get hands on with some of your target machines, as this really does help form your opinion.

Bella are a bit of a trek for you, but achievable. You should be able to see the Sage in bigger John Lewis'es or perhaps Lakeland.

Its quite difficult to compare the two machines you have already mentioned as I said before, they are quite different beasts, so I guess the only way is working out whats important for you, and going for that


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> lets keep it simple. Pour your shot, remove the pf and puck, purge 10 mls through, wipe the screen if you want, then put your cup back under and top up with water through the group head. It will still be too hot to drink immediately but cooler than if you reheat it


Actually seen David do this for an Americano for me when I bought his Mythos.

I'd actually been using the hot water tap on my machine and never actually thought about water through the grouphead. Makes perfect sense now!


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

It makes sense if you have a rotary pump ... If you have vibe the extra noise of in unloaded group head and the elka at full whap makes your eyes literally explode and your intestines reach up and strangle your brain. I am sticking with the kettle


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## Kyle T (Jan 6, 2016)

I always thought for an Americano you pulled the shot into the hot water rather than pull a shot and then top it up with water?


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Traditionally shot into water is a long black iirc.

Water into shot is americano, but that's kinda splitting hairs.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Make what tastes good

In the order you want to ...

Call it Lionel for all i care


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Make what tastes good
> 
> In the order you want to ...
> 
> Call it Lionel for all i care


Well, shots can get a bit Messi with an EK


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