# Sage Barista Touch - Second pull yielding significantly less coffee?



## Jamie369 (May 23, 2020)

Hi guys,

I've been the proud owner of my Barista Touch for a few months now. I'm still trying different beans to work out what I like - churning through coffee so mainly using 1kg bags from the few places I can seem to find them.

Recently I'm finding that when I make two coffees, the second extraction consistently yields significantly less than the first. Same grind settings and as near same tamp pressure as I can manage. I'm using new beans but honestly I can't remember if this coincided exactly with the new beans or if that's just coincidence.

I just did a test and with 20g of coffee the first pull yielded 27g and the second yielded 14g.

Does anyone have any idea why this might be? I'm awaiting the arrival of new beans to try but I can't really imagine why they would cause the problem so consistently? The head was cleaned recently and I have a new filter in place. I haven't run a descale cycle yet (as it hasn't asked me to).

Any advice would be much appreciated!

Also very happy for any recommendations of 1kg bean suppliers!


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

Rave? Monmouth do as well.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Jamie369 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I've been the proud owner of my Barista Touch for a few months now. I'm still trying different beans to work out what I like - churning through coffee so mainly using 1kg bags from the few places I can seem to find them.
> 
> ...


 Are you pulling manually or letting the machine do it? 
What time is that over? i.e. is the time the same but the pull is stopping shorter.

I don't think the volumetric of the sages is accurate. so I ALWAYS pull manually and go to weight.

Also how many shots are you doing before these? 
I find at least 3 maybe 4 empty shots are required to stabilise temp. Therefore it could be that the first shot is cooler and second hotter. 
Depending on the bean higher heat can cause more CO2 to be released, slowing down extraction.
I remember reading an article on BH about how a hotter temp can cause a fast initial extraction, then slows right down due to this. 
Shot was nicer, but needed to be run longer.


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## Jamie369 (May 23, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> Are you pulling manually or letting the machine do it?
> What time is that over? i.e. is the time the same but the pull is stopping shorter.
> 
> I don't think the volumetric of the sages is accurate. so I ALWAYS pull manually and go to weight.
> ...


 I'm pulling automatically over 30s. The second pulls as if it's a much finer grind and so trickles out. Typically I'll let the machine brew for a few seconds before I attach the portafilter which has always been fine before (not that I'm comparing it to anything else!)

I've never had this problem with previous beans but your explanation would make total sense.

I've done a lot of Googling to try to understand the best process but have been following a pretty automatic process up to now.! Is there anything I'm missing? What sort of yield should I be looking for from 20g? I assume the answer to that is personal preference but it would be great to have a starting point to work from.

So you would manually pull the shot straight on to scales until it hits the desired weight?


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## Jamie369 (May 23, 2020)

facboy said:


> Rave? Monmouth do as well.


 Thanks! Will check these out! I think I looked at Rave but haven't tried Monmouth.


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

I quite like Monmouth but I think Rave is more favoured on the forum. On my first order of Rave at the moment (Rave Fudge + Signature), quite nice!


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## TobyAnscombe (Sep 28, 2014)

Jamie369 said:


> I'm pulling automatically over 30s. The second pulls as if it's a much finer grind and so trickles out. Typically I'll let the machine brew for a few seconds before I attach the portafilter which has always been fine before (not that I'm comparing it to anything else!)
> 
> I've never had this problem with previous beans but your explanation would make total sense.
> 
> ...


 Thats how I'm setup. 22g in, 30 sec brew and a 1:2.5 ratio (or there about) gives between 50-55g out fairly consistently. Have done for just over 2 years with very few problems (which I know makes me in the minority)...


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## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

Jamie369 said:


> I'm pulling automatically over 30s. The second pulls as if it's a much finer grind and so trickles out. Typically I'll let the machine brew for a few seconds before I attach the portafilter which has always been fine before (not that I'm comparing it to anything else!)
> 
> I've never had this problem with previous beans but your explanation would make total sense.
> 
> ...


 If your pulling over 30 seconds and only getting 27g out on a 20g shot, i would imagine thats its only dripping out and very under exstracted. From 20g i would be looking at 40g out (1:2 ratio) in 30 seconds but then thats my taste on my current bean which is rave signature.

Have you tried reducing the amount of grinds in the portafilter to say 17g and pulled a shot to see how that comes out? And work on 1:2 so look for 34g out.

However there is no set amount you should be looking for, its all down to your taste and nothing more.


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## Jamie369 (May 23, 2020)

Dalerst said:


> If your pulling over 30 seconds and only getting 27g out on a 20g shot, i would imagine thats its only dripping out and very under exstracted. From 20g i would be looking at 40g out (1:2 ratio) in 30 seconds but then thats my taste on my current bean which is rave signature.
> 
> Have you tried reducing the amount of grinds in the portafilter to say 17g and pulled a shot to see how that comes out? And work on 1:2 so look for 34g out.
> 
> However there is no set amount you should be looking for, its all down to your taste and nothing more.


 I haven't tried that, but it's a good shout. I have a bag of Rave Signature waiting to go in - I'm on my last hopper of the current batch which is the only bean I've used that has caused this weird problem with the second pull.

My portafilter is always brimming so it makes total sense to try less grinds. I'll be on to the Rave tomorrow probably so I'll report back and let you know how I get on.

Appreciate the tips - as you can probably tell I've been totally winging it to this point so it's really good to have a decent base to work from to find what works for me. Thanks.


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## Jamie369 (May 23, 2020)

Dalerst said:


> If your pulling over 30 seconds and only getting 27g out on a 20g shot, i would imagine thats its only dripping out and very under exstracted. From 20g i would be looking at 40g out (1:2 ratio) in 30 seconds but then thats my taste on my current bean which is rave signature.
> 
> Have you tried reducing the amount of grinds in the portafilter to say 17g and pulled a shot to see how that comes out? And work on 1:2 so look for 34g out.
> 
> However there is no set amount you should be looking for, its all down to your taste and nothing more.


 So I'm now on to Rave Signature and am currently dialling that in. Less grinds worked much better with the previous bean, so thank you for that!

A question for you in terms of dialling in - I'm aiming for 2:1 as a starting point and my first pull was roughly 3:1 so I've reduced the grind size. Does there come a point where you stop reducing the grind size and start dialling back the brew duration to control the yield, or would you tend to keep the brew duration constant and use purely grind size to get to the desired ratio?


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

no, you change all three according to taste. the guideline is 2:1 in about 30 seconds, i think it's more of a starting point. if you're way off that change your grind size to aim for around that and adjust from there.

personally i keep the ratio fairly fixed at 2:1 and i change the grind according to taste and, tbh, because i have a naked portafilter, how the extraction looks. i'm not a connoisseur (i drink lattes) with a finely developed palate, so i can often tell whether it's going to be ok or not for me based on how the shot looks (channelling) and how long it takes. the thing i worry about the least is the extraction time, i only check that sporadically if i feel i've lost my way.


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## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

Jamie369 said:


> So I'm now on to Rave Signature and am currently dialling that in. Less grinds worked much better with the previous bean, so thank you for that!
> 
> A question for you in terms of dialling in - I'm aiming for 2:1 as a starting point and my first pull was roughly 3:1 so I've reduced the grind size. Does there come a point where you stop reducing the grind size and start dialling back the brew duration to control the yield, or would you tend to keep the brew duration constant and use purely grind size to get to the desired ratio?


 No, just start with grind size, if you get to a point where your in really low numbers on the grinder like 1 or 2, then increase the amount in the portafilter by half gram each time to get you 1:2 ratio in 25 - 30 seconds.


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## Jamie369 (May 23, 2020)

Thanks guys - that's really helped. Really enjoying Rave Signature too! 👍


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