# Advice sought: -horrible 'treacle-tasting' shots



## jzbdski (Oct 20, 2012)

Hi There,

I thought I'd turn to you for some help and advice.

I'm using a Rancilio Silvia and Iberital MC2 which I've had for a couple of months now and I'm getting some pretty variable results.

I thought that I'd dialled my grinder in pretty well, and using Brazilian Beans form Happy Donkey, the shots seemed pretty reasonable with a pleasant 'nutty' flavour -although not quite every time -something I put down to erratic dosing and inconsistent tamping.

Looking for a more local supplier of beans, I turned to Artisan Roast (based in Edinburgh and Glasgow) to try a few of their varieties and the coffee I produced was not nice. Now I'm sure this is more down to me screwing things up rather than their beans not being any good !

I had to make quite a few adjustments to my grind settings as the Silvia Choked and nothing came out -I assume this is because the grind is too fine or too compacted ?

I ground coarser and, although everything looked ok (2oz in 25-30 secs, nice crema, no blonding) the shots tasted pretty odd. I'd describe it as a bit thin to start with followed by an unpleasantly strong-tasting, treacly punch. I wouldn't describe it as either sour, acidic or bitter, just heavy and lacking subtlety.

Can anyone offer any advice on what I might be doing wrong ? or is it just a case of trying to find a roast which is more to my taste ?

Is it more likely to be Grind coarseness, tamping or (horror of horrors) temperature ?

Thanks in advance for your help

-I think I'm starting to drive my wife mad, she even resorted to a cup of instant yesterday after the 3rd ghastly shot !


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

Could be a mixture of technique and not loving the beans you're using. Do you like Artisans coffee when they make it? Some training on your own equipment with a varied selection of beans would probably be a good shout. Christmas present perhaps? 

What area are you in?

Michael

Fun in a Cup Coffee Training


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## jzbdski (Oct 20, 2012)

Hi Michael,

I live in Fife but work in Glasgow most days, in fact, not far from where you're based.

I'll drop some hints









In the meantime I have some other beans to experiment with...


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

Nice one. Give me a shout if you fancy popping by for a coffee!

Have you tried Dear Green? It's a more medium roast, much smoother with less harsh acidity. Works really well as espresso and in milk.

Michael

Fun in a Cup Coffee Training


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

i would weigh the input of your beans and output of the extraction (at least for dialling in). To do this fix your dose , say 18g.

Try (for e.g) 18g in and 28-30g out (ratio of 1.5-1.7) in 25-30 seconds . This ratio can be adjusted for different beans and roast levels


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

jzbdski said:


> I'm getting some pretty variable results.!


Just checking but are you happy with your 'temp surfing' with the Silvia. She does tend to play up if the water temp is not at the optimum for the beans in use. If you are getting variable results this could well be the reason


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## jzbdski (Oct 20, 2012)

Hi Ron,

That's what I was worried about.

The technique I've been using is to bleed the machine once pre-heated, wait until the temp light goes out then wait 2 mins before pulling the shot.

I know there are many different methods but does that sound sensible ?

I'll try and get everything else sorted first and then might have to look at a PID mod (gulp !)

Again, any advice gratefully received !


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

You'll have to experiment but be sure you start the shot just before the light comes back on. This should keep the heater on during the 'pull'.

Good luck:good:


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Have you cleaned the machine recently? Could be rancid coffee oils that have accumulated over time?


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## jzbdski (Oct 20, 2012)

Hi Guys,

Had a play tonight with some Valvona and Crollo beans with the scales and stopwatch out.

Got some decent-ish shots but had a load of grinder adjustments.

Initially i took it so far that the machine choked then backed it off until i'm getting a double-shot of around 60g in 25 secs.

This was from a 14g dose which gives a ratio which is worryingly different from the 1.5-1.7 Gary was talking about, its more like 4.2 !

Am I approaching this the wrong way ? I thought it was 7g for a single shot, 14g for a double ? I'm using the standard Silvia double basket. (would VST make a difference ? -I feel I've more basic things to remedy first !)

Machine is cleaned and flushed regularly.

Seems like a bit of a black art to crack this !


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jzbdski said:


> Initially i took it so far that the machine choked then backed it off until i'm getting a double-shot of around 60g in 25 secs.
> 
> This was from a 14g dose which gives a ratio which is worryingly different from the 1.5-1.7 Gary was talking about, its more like 4.2 !
> 
> Am I approaching this the wrong way ?


60g from 14g is into mega-lungo territory, but if it tasted good ....

60g is a big jump from choking the machine, what did the shots in between taste like?


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Gary, where is that table describing all the different shots with ratios etc? I can't remember where I've seen it. I've got it printed out somewhere.

OP, did you try putting 14g in and getting 28g out just as an experiment?


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## jzbdski (Oct 20, 2012)

Hmm, there wasn't much in the grinder settings between only a few drips coming out and the 60g in 25 secs, maybe 2-3 half-turns (MC2).

If I was looking for more like the 1.5-1.7 ratio which, from a 14g would be around 21-25g would I not end up with next-to-no coffee in terms of volume ? Or should I have a shed-load more crema which gives the volume but weighs less ?

Apologies if this all sounds very naive, I'm really keen to understand what's happening !

Thanks again...


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

You'll certainly get a lot less volume if you extract 28g instead of 60g, but it should taste a lot better and be more balanced. 60g as Gary says is a lungo and is drawing out lots of bitterness.

7g in the single basket won't be enough and you'll have to use around 10g to avoid channelling. Unless you're set on using it, stick to the double basket as it is more consistent.

I'd recommend starting with 16g with the same 1.6 ratio so you'll be looking to get 25/26g of espresso out in around 25-30secs.

Michael

Fun in a Cup Coffee Training


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jzbdski said:


> Hmm, there wasn't much in the grinder settings between only a few drips coming out and the 60g in 25 secs, maybe 2-3 half-turns (MC2).
> 
> If I was looking for more like the 1.5-1.7 ratio which, from a 14g would be around 21-25g would I not end up with next-to-no coffee in terms of volume ? Or should I have a shed-load more crema which gives the volume but weighs less ?
> 
> ...


Im suprised the MC2 is that sensitive for only 2 half turns. Maybe try a single quarter turn from choking . Keep everything else 100% consistant (dose, tamp, routine)


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## jzbdski (Oct 20, 2012)

Ok,

So I played about a bit again this morning and I did get a 33g shot from a 14g dose in about 30 secs, absolutely nothing came out for the first 10 secs then a small trickle. I have to report that, to my taste, it was awful and really sharp. Initially I thought this was 'bitter' I now wonder whether it was more 'acidic'...

I wound back the grinder a touch and pulled the shot in the video below. Having timed it, it looks like it I gave it 40 secs to get 50g from a 14g dose. It tasted 'ok' but was a bit 'flat' and lacking in character.

So I suppose I'm asking...

Is it likely that the 33g shot which i didn't enjoy and thought I'd taken too far was, in fact, under-extracted and I need to grind a little finer ?

Should I worry if nothing comes out of the filter holder initially, for say, 10-12 secs and then only drips slowly after that ?

In the video below, does it look like the shot is coming out too quickly ?

I know that once I get that mythical 'magic' shot I'll know what I'm looking for... perhaps, it would indeed be a good idea to get a spot of training to better understand what I'm trying to achieve and to get the best from my gear...

More confused than ever...









Once again, thanks for your help, and patience !

blast, can't attach video to post !


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

It sounds like the first shot (tasting sour) was under extracted and needed a finer grind. It sounds like the second shot was over extracted and needs a slightly coarser grind. Probably somewhere between the two should be spot on. You are aiming for a shot that tastes intensely sweet with crisp, balanced acidity. Under extracted shots lack sweetness and the acidity dominates whereas with over extracted shots the caramel flavours overpower the acidity and they taste dull and flat, or worse, bitter.

Don't worry if the shot takes 10 seconds to start pouring from the spouts.


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## jzbdski (Oct 20, 2012)

Ok. So got brave this morning. Wound the grind super-fine. Pulled a 28g shot in 27s. Tasted real bitter.

Wound the grinder back two half turns. Pulled a second shot of 30g in 23s tasted sour.

Went half a turn finer, waited... Nothing for 12 secs then a few drips, then a slow stream. Stopped it after 30s with a 28g yield... Tasted lovely, even my wife liked it !

Previously I would have discarded this as I thought it would be too string and over-powering.

Might, finally, be on the right track. Now to give those poor maligned Artisan Roast beans a second chance !

Thanks all for your help and advice.

I think one of the things that threw me was the videos online which seem to show a far more rapid stream of liquid from the porta-filter -mine was far slower and took longer to start. Also I had the mistaken belief that I'd to fill my shot glasses to the line...

Thanks again, away for another shot !


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Try not to tamp too hard. Let the finer grinding do the hard work. If you watch a lot of the online videos, they literally just push the tamper down lightly with maybe a tiny polish twist. I think a lot of people tamp the hell about of their coffee thinking this is what is needed but usually that's only if you have a crap grinder. This could be why you're getting hardly anything or a gusher. When you start getting to the finer end of the scale, the grinds fit together a lot better to form a better seal and need less tamping to be just right.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Just a thought - any idea what pressure your machine is outputting? It reminds me of my old classic when it was set to 13 bar - not much between choke and gusher. Do you have a bottomless portafilter? If you do I'm happy for you to borrow my gauge if you want to pay postage.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jzbdski said:


> Ok. So got brave this morning. Wound the grind super-fine. Pulled a 28g shot in 27s. Tasted real bitter.
> 
> Wound the grinder back two half turns. Pulled a second shot of 30g in 23s tasted sour.
> 
> ...


Espresso is a labour of love


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