# New machine setup to start - no Gaggia or Silvia



## Cafesolo (Aug 18, 2020)

Hi,

Not sure if this is the right forum, I have been looking around but not sure where to post. I have been reading for a few weeks now, my original intent was to get a fully automated bean-to-cup machine but the more I investigated the more I was put off by the lack of control and also most of the nicer ones didn't come with steaming wands and have milk preparation systems. I am really not much of a milk drinker but I do want to have the wand for the occasional guest or when I fancy a flat-white.

My budget is around £500-£700 for the basic setup machine and grinder. It has to be compact and it needs to look good (very subjective I know)

I started looking at the Sage Barista, which I think it's a good machine however I don't like how it looks. I want something more compact.

I then moved to look Italian/Traditional semi-automatic espresso machines, I have considered the Gaggia Classic Pro and the Rancilio Silvia. I have been put-off as I want to be able to see both temperature and pressure and I don't want to have to install add-ons. I do not want to buy second-hand either.

So what I am left with in my budget is mostly Lelit as they do compact machines that have built-in PID and Pressure Gages. I ruled out the Anna with PID as it's almost the same cost as the Grace and the Grace just seems like a better machine. The Grace just seems to tick all boxes.



Lelit Anita with built-in grinder (CoffeeItalia £569) --> £569


Lelit Grace (BellaBaristaL £539 or CoffeeItalia £499) + Lelit Fred (£129 coffeemate) --> £668


Lelit Grace + Eureka Mignon Facile (BellaBarista Package £794) --> £794


Lelit Grace (BellaBaristaL £539 or CoffeeItalia £499) + Eureka Mignon Facile (JavaHub £240) --> £779


At the moment I am inclined to go for option 2 as Fred grinder seems more compact and would match the coffee machine.

I know the general consensus is spend more on the grinder, however I think I can get more enjoyment on the machine and I feel I could upgrade the grinder down the line. The Fred is on offer at the moment so it seems a good deal.

The big issue with the Lelit seems to be that it has a 57mm instead of 58mm group which limits accessories. I don't think this will be an issue for me in medium term as long as I can get the basic stuff.

Apologies for the long post but I wanted to ask the experts before I came to a conclusion.

Many thanks for any help or advise you can provide.


----------



## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

I'm also interested to hear peoples opinions on the lelit Fred at £129, need a grinder for work and would like to keep it as cheap as possible. Mignon manuale was really the only grinder I considered to be budget friendly that I knew from personal experience was good enough.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## adamk (Jan 8, 2020)

I used a Fred with my Classic and was quite happy with the results. If I want to be honest it probably does not have the same build quality as the Mignon as it has loads of plastic parts which came as a problem when I tried to mill some wheat grains with it - had to change one of the plastic gears but I can't complain as coffee grinders are not built for grain hardness... Anyway it has steel conical burrs, stepless adjustment and it is on-demand so it ticked all the necessary boxes for me to work with the Classic.

Due the upgrade to the Vesuvius now it is sadly sitting in a box, only to be taken out occasionally to experience with new beans when I don't want to mess up with my actual grinder's setting but I do recommend it as a starting grinder.


----------



## Cafesolo (Aug 18, 2020)

Thanks that's very useful, I am not sure on grinders at all.


----------



## ArkellvsPressdram (Jun 21, 2020)

I can't speak to the machines but I can tell you that I've been v happy with the Mignon Facile for the last few months, stepless adjustment is good and if you use it with the hopper you can get some lovely shots out of it fairly consistently.


----------



## hhgclark (Oct 2, 2016)

Coffee Italia has an incredibly bad rap on this forum. Loads of bad experiences posted. Have a quick search before purchasing from them. On the flip side, everyone seems to love Bella Barista.

I've not got any experience of the machines or grinders that you're looking at, but I do have a La Spaz with a 52mm basket. It's been a minor inconvenience but by no means a joy killer. Don't let it sway you from getting the machine you want.


----------



## Cafesolo (Aug 18, 2020)

Thanks, lovely machine! Yes I don't see myself buying lots of accessories so I think it's okay but I just noted people point that out as a big problem.


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Cafesolo said:


> Thanks, lovely machine! Yes I don't see myself buying lots of accessories so I think it's okay but I just noted people point that out as a big problem.


 If your budget is just for grinder and machine, that's fine, but don't forget you will need £80-100 worth of accessories after that. Tamper, scales knockbox, storage, funnel, cleaning tablets and grouphead brush at the least. Milk jug too if you use milk.


----------



## Cafesolo (Aug 18, 2020)

> If your budget is just for grinder and machine, that's fine, but don't forget you will need £80-100 worth of accessories after that. Tamper, scales knockbox, storage, funnel, cleaning tablets and grouphead brush at the least. Milk jug too if you use milk.


 Hi, yes that's fine I assume there will be other extras. Some coffee specially! 🙂

I guess you mean Grace + Fred is a reasonable choice?


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Cafesolo said:


> I guess you mean Grace + Fred is a reasonable choice?


 I'm not the most experienced on here by a long shot and your budget falls sort of in between the first two 'levels' of espresso price-wise, so it's a bit beyond my knowledge range to definitely recommend it to you as I haven't seen it discussed that often. That doesn't mean it's bad, but it's not a regular recommendation. It does come up in the Leilt forum I see though, so if you've read that and are happy with it, Bella Barista are a good place to shop from.

I've never heard of that grinder though, it's very cheap, I've never seen experienced people recommend that, so personally I would not get it. Yes you can upgrade later but if I was spending that much on a machine I would want a grinder to do it justice. Spend the extra now. A very common newbie mistake is scrimping on the grinder. 'What's a cheap espresso grinder?' comes up a lot on here and the answer is always (if buying new), either a top end hand grinder or at least a Eureka Facile or Specialita.

Grinders regularly come up in the 'for sale' section and are less of a risk than a second hand machine. Forum members are more likely to maintain them, be accommodating with postage/collection too. I agree with you about a second hand machine/modding, I didn't want that either, but if I was buying for the first time again and I had a new stand alone machine, I would probably be looking at the second hand grinder market as well as new. Totally understandable if you don't want to go for that though. So if you have done your research on the Grace and decided it's good for you, I would get the BellaBarista Facile Package for £794.


----------



## Cafesolo (Aug 18, 2020)

CocoLoco said:


> I'm not the most experienced on here by a long shot and your budget falls sort of in between the first two 'levels' of espresso price-wise, so it's a bit beyond my knowledge range to definitely recommend it to you as I haven't seen it discussed that often. That doesn't mean it's bad, but it's not a regular recommendation. It does come up in the Leilt forum I see though, so if you've read that and are happy with it, Bella Barista are a good place to shop from.
> I've never heard of that grinder though, it's very cheap, I've never seen experienced people recommend that, so personally I would not get it. Yes you can upgrade later but if I was spending that much on a machine I would want a grinder to do it justice. Spend the extra now. A very common newbie mistake is scrimping on the grinder. 'What's a cheap espresso grinder?' comes up a lot on here and the answer is always (if buying new), either a top end hand grinder or at least a Eureka Facile or Specialita.
> Grinders regularly come up in the 'for sale' section and are less of a risk than a second hand machine. Forum members are more likely to maintain them, be accommodating with postage/collection too. I agree with you about a second hand machine/modding, I didn't want that either, but if I was buying for the first time again and I had a new stand alone machine, I would probably be looking at the second hand grinder market as well as new. Totally understandable if you don't want to go for that though. So if you have done your research on the Grace and decided it's good for you, I would get the BellaBarista Facile Package for £794.


Many thanks for the thorough response. One issue i have with the grinder is size, i think i need to introduce the coffee gadget invasion slowly. The fred just looks so much smaller, i will keep an eye on the second hand market. I think i can sell the Fred later and probably only loose a little bit assuming usage is low and well maintained.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Start with something 58mm mentioned Lelits are 57mm with 250ml boilers, given this fact will work for ristretto only. Fred is rebranded Iberital MC2 what to say very basic conic grinder full with plenty of plastic details inside.


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Cafesolo said:


> Many thanks for the thorough response. One issue i have with the grinder is size, i think i need to introduce the coffee gadget invasion slowly. The fred just looks so much smaller, i will keep an eye on the second hand market. I think i can sell the Fred later and probably only loose a little bit assuming usage is low and well maintained.


 It's not that much smaller, but if height is an issue that might come into play. Maybe check the websites and measure them out. Also bear in mind the Fred is 38mm and conical, the Facile is 50mm and flat. Burr size you always want bigger (up to a point), but flat v conical is it's own discussion. Maybe less of an issue until you know what you like. Fred, yes may be able to move on. Eureka definitely will. You could always get the Fred and then upgrade to a Eureka later.


----------



## Cafesolo (Aug 18, 2020)

CocoLoco said:


> It's not that much smaller, but if height is an issue that might come into play. Maybe check the websites and measure them out. Also bear in mind the Fred is 38mm and conical, the Facile is 50mm and flat. Burr size you always want bigger (up to a point), but flat v conical is it's own discussion. Maybe less of an issue until you know what you like. Fred, yes may be able to move on. Eureka definitely will. You could always get the Fred and then upgrade to a Eureka later.


Yes that was my thinking. Actually size wise is not that different and height not an issue, visually is more noticeable because is black. I think long term i would want a grinder that i can program the dose. Neither at this price do it. Long term i like the look and features of the niche zero but its too much investment at the moment.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cafesolo (Aug 18, 2020)

Well just an update i got the Lelit Grace but not yet made my mind on the grinder.

I am trying to work out the machine for a few days while i finalise decision on grinder.

Lots of question but i will review the forum then start new threads. Thanks all

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jasetaylor (Jul 31, 2020)

Cafesolo said:


> Well just an update i got the Lelit Grace but not yet made my mind on the grinder.


 Congrats on the Lelit Grace, on paper that's an awful lot of machine for the $$$$ but with the Achilles heel of the non-standard 57mm eco system. To be honest it's exceptional value and worth while sticking with until such time that you either upgrade to an HX/Dual boiler machine or simply remain content with the Grace.

I faced the same dilemma regarding my first stepping stone into home coffee beyond a Moka pot and an Aeropress and set my sights on the two machines you dismissed (for very valid reasons). After a little searching I now have a V5 Silvia which has undergone a few upgrades and now awaiting a PID addition and possible oil filled pressure gauge. I also have a Niche Zero grinder arriving in October. As a bit of a tinkerer I rather like the challenge of improving the Silvia.

I hope you enjoy your quest for better home coffee, myself, even with a Moka pot & freshly ground beans gave excellent results during the lockdown period.


----------



## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

a bit late to the party but if you think you're going to be in it for a while, i'd spend up (or explore the second-hand market if you need to stay within budget) to get to the 'real' entry-level for espresso grinders, which, if we're talking new, is one of the Eureka Mignon's. by 'real' entry-level, i mean a level which won't have you wanting to upgrade within 6 months when you've found your feet.

i have a baratza encore which i've been using since christmas, and have a niche zero incoming september. i've been thinking of switching from the encore since about feb/mar. if i'd known then what i know now (and i were buying my own grinder, rather than being given one as a gift, which i've glossed over a bit!), i'd have got a Eureka Mignon Specialita off the bat and probably be happily using it still, and expecting to for the foreseeable future.


----------



## Cafesolo (Aug 18, 2020)

facboy said:


> a bit late to the party but if you think you're going to be in it for a while, i'd spend up (or explore the second-hand market if you need to stay within budget) to get to the 'real' entry-level for espresso grinders, which, if we're talking new, is one of the Eureka Mignon's. by 'real' entry-level, i mean a level which won't have you wanting to upgrade within 6 months when you've found your feet.
> i have a baratza encore which i've been using since christmas, and have a niche zero incoming september. i've been thinking of switching from the encore since about feb/mar. if i'd known then what i know now (and i were buying my own grinder, rather than being given one as a gift, which i've glossed over a bit!), i'd have got a Eureka Mignon Specialita off the bat and probably be happily using it still, and expecting to for the foreseeable future.


Yes i am still on the lookout for the grinder iberital mc2, lelit fred and fracino piccino are new options. Watching for sale forum and ebay but nothing suitable at the moment.

It is also about spreading the spend, some of the cheaper options sell for not much less somehow it doesnt sound terrible to change them after a while. The forums is also full off people that had those 'cheap' grinders for a few years before the moved on.

I will see what happens on second hand market for the next week and decide.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

You could consider the sage dose control and sage grinder pro, both will make espresso and resell well. I wouldn't pay rrp though but if you can get at £120 or £150 for the pro new you'll have no issue reselling without losing more than £20.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cafesolo (Aug 18, 2020)

KTD said:


> You could consider the sage dose control and sage grinder pro, both will make espresso and resell well. I wouldn't pay rrp though but if you can get at £120 or £150 for the pro new you'll have no issue reselling without losing more than £20.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes i was watching for those too, resale is good. No offers i can see at the moment. They look neat but generally seems people agree the other options are slightly better.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jasetaylor (Jul 31, 2020)

Just a thought regarding grinders, would it be an option to spend the budget on a high end hand grinder capable of espresso grind. If you ever decide to leap into the £500+ territory for a powered grinder you would still had a damned good portable hand grinder which when matched with an Aeropress gives you great portable coffee for travelling, camping etc.


----------



## Cafesolo (Aug 18, 2020)

Still not got the grinder, tempted by the iberital because of the cost. But hoping a eureka mignon come out for sale second hand. Is it fair to say that the grinders in between like fracino piccino are not really a step up from mc2?

Also an i correct in saying that eureka mignon manuale and specialita are about the same in terms of espresso but the specialita can produce single and double dose because of the timer?

I wish there more low cost options...

I am getting reasonable looking expressos out of shop bought preground coffee but the flavour isnt great. Also i think too much coffee comes out in the 24sec timer - 18gr produce about 40gr coffee. Really need to understand this better :-/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Cafesolo said:


> Still not got the grinder, tempted by the iberital because of the cost. But hoping a eureka mignon come out for sale second hand. Is it fair to say that the grinders in between like fracino piccino are not really a step up from mc2?
> 
> Also an i correct in saying that eureka mignon manuale and specialita are about the same in terms of espresso but the specialita can produce single and double dose because of the timer?
> 
> ...


Brand new 1zpresso hand grinders work out only marginally more expensive than the MC2 if bought direct from 1zpresso. These produce better quality espresso grinds than any of the grinders you are talking about IMO.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


----------



## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

ChilledMatt said:


> Brand new 1zpresso hand grinders work out only marginally more expensive than the MC2 if bought direct from 1zpresso. These produce better quality espresso grinds than any of the grinders you are talking about IMO.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


 I agree. My 1Z JX pro produces a better grind than the mignon which is no longer used and will be sold soon.


----------



## Cafesolo (Aug 18, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> I agree. My 1Z JX pro produces a better grind than the mignon which is no longer used and will be sold soon.


Thanks for the feedback.

What do you mean the mignon is no longer used?

By the way while i appreciate they may provide better grind and obviously very low retention i don't want a manual grinder just not interested in the idea of cranking for a minute or two.

I

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Cafesolo said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> What do you mean the mignon is no longer used?
> 
> ...


Less than 30 seconds for 20 grams.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


----------



## Cafesolo (Aug 18, 2020)

ChilledMatt said:


> Less than 30 seconds for 20 grams.
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


Just thinking the odd time i have dinner guest and try to make 4-6 espressos. I am new to this and not comfortable with manual grinders. I like the idea that a machine will do the grinding.

Although i feel that i am going for looks and quantity not quality,... there are so many opinions

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Cafesolo said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> What do you mean the mignon is no longer used?
> 
> ...


 As in it hasn't been switched on since the JX arrived


----------



## Cafesolo (Aug 18, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> As in it hasn't been switched on since the JX arrived


Oh i see, i would probably interested if you are selling the mignon. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Cafesolo said:


> Oh i see, i would probably interested if you are selling the mignon. 🙂
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Cool, just needs packing up, feel free to PM me an offer, it's a 6 month old Mignon Manuale.


----------

