# From no machine to new machine



## frustin (Feb 10, 2013)

Hello,

I work in London and there's a coffee house that makes what i consider the best espresso, not bitter, strong almost citrous taste, lush creamy crema. I would like to try and emulate that at home. I also like my milky coffee's in the morning.

Reading posts in this forum i found tonight, has brought me to the cherub as a strong consideration for my first coffee machine. I didnt realise there was all the other "stuff" that i needed as well.

My questions are:


What other accessories will I need to buy and what recommendations of maker? e.g. the grinders i see people favour, like the MC2, what's that?

Where should I be buying from or just google cheapest?

I'd like to buy my coffee maker from somewhere that if it goes wrong (as i read someone's Cherub did within the first 24hours) I'd like good after sales care. Is there a recommendation?


thanks very much in advance.

frustin


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Hi Frustin and welcome to Coffee Forums UK

3 things you will need are;

1. Grinder

2. Tamper

3. 12 or 20oz milk jug

The rest are just extras until you get the hang of things

I'd like to think the best place to start shopping is from suppliers on this list http://coffeeforums.co.uk/content.php?306-Coffee-Forums-UK-Advertisers-January-2013

Let us know if you have any queries we can assist with

Home Barista Training would also be money well spent. You should be able to create a decent drink time after time within a couple of hours of training.


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## mookielagoo (Dec 12, 2012)

The MC2 is a grinder by Iberital and is generally regarded as one of few half decent espresso grinders (for the price) that performs consistently well (have a look at the happy donkey website) Francino are based in Birmingham and support (ive heard) is excellent...(Shrink will point you in the right direction)...

You'll need a decent Tamper, weighing scales (Salter 1g are o.k or some folk opt for a 0.1g cheap set from ebay). Making decent coffee is a challenge and a learning journey - the Cherub is a super piece of kit although you may want to start off with something more simple...


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

I sell the Cherub at a very competitive price http://www.thecoffeebean-vanandroaster.co.uk/Heavenly---Cherub.html

Take a look and let me know if you are interested

Andy


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

If you get serious about nailing the variables that go to make the perfect shot, get some decent scales as suggested. But get scales that can be calibrated. Cheaper scales aren't supplied with a verified weight. - either 100grm or 200grm. Using the verified weight ensures you are spot on dose-wise. Another decent grinder, for the price, is a Euerka Mignon. Keep dose weight per shot fixed at say 16 grm until you get the 27 sec shot. Once there, you should be on the espresso sweet spot - experiencing all the taste nuances you describe. Then, if you wish, you can try dosing a bit more weight to see if that is to your taste liking.


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## SweeneyTodd (Jan 4, 2013)

Hi frustin,

it was me that was unlucky enough to have the Cherub go wrong so soon.

i bought mine from http://www.allianceonline.co.uk/ as opposed to the supplier most recommend on here mainly because I make a point of only ordering from websites that have proper contact details, a physical address etc. That is not to say there is anything wrong with any of the usually recommended suppliers - I've never used them.

Aliiance offered a good price, delivered when they said they would and picked up the faulty item next day no quibbles.

From everything I read, I was just unlucky with my Cherub and for the short time I was able to use it it seemed like a good bit of kit (barring the very small drip tray on the stainless steel model).

FWIW I still haven't decided whether I'm going to try another Cherub or spend a bit more and get an Expobar Office Leva


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## frustin (Feb 10, 2013)

thanks all for the tips. i need some consideration. is the drip tray an issue on the cherub? Is it expected to fill up?


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## SweeneyTodd (Jan 4, 2013)

Mine didn't overflow but I emptied it regularly. On the S/S model the tray isn't much more than 1cm deep. I believe that on the black/coloured panel Cherub it is larger. The difference seems to be that the standard Cherub now uses the square drip tray from the Piccino which is deeper whereas the stainless steel model uses the older (Heavenly?) round-fronted style tray.

I think in normal household use (just a few drinks in a session) it may be ok but if you follow that with a fairly rigourous backflush routine there may be a risk of spillage especially as one takes the tray out to empty it. However, my experience with the Cherub was very limited and others with more experience may be able to give you a better guide of how it works in practice.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Expobar Office Leva is stonking value for money. I looked at one when deciding what next to go for. In the end, went for a full lever but that's another story.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

ok... here we go









-i love my cherub now, there were a few issues when i first got it, but fracino's superb customer service has resolved all of them. Its now a delight to use. On the black and coloured panel ones, the drip tray is pretty huge and takes days to fill up with flushes / drips etc. I can do a full backflush routine without going near the drip tray. The steam power is fantastic, and i ended up getting a two hole tip rather than the supplied 4 hole tip. This combined with a 20oz milk jug is making good foam now. You only need to fill the jug half way. That said, with the 4 hole tip, the cherub will gladly steam the hell out of an enormous jug, probably 40oz or more!

-Grinder wise, i have an MC2. Its pretty solid for home use, and in auto form, doses straight into your portafilter. its pretty consistent, easy enough to adjust between beans and roasts and doesnt take up too much space. Its also reasonably priced. However.... (theres always a "but" right?) the cherub is a bloody good machine, and if i'd known i was going to upgrade to one so soon, i'd have considered getting a slightly better grinder. My MC2 was bought to go with a gaggia classic. With the cherub, i'd perhaps have considered a doserless mazzer mini or a refurbed Super Jolly. But the MC2 is good, and will serve you well.

-you'll need a tamper. the Motta 58mm flat tamper fits the basket of the cherub well. Although I think i got slightly better results from my curved base tamper. So it may be worth trying one of each (they are only about £14 from cream supplies).

-i'd get a tamping matt (about £3 from esspresso services in glasgow)

Lastly, my cherub came from Peter at espresso underground. His service and customer support have been superb. WIth him he guarantees that you're getting the fracino factory warranty, and as such its a back to base warranty. Its good for peace of mind, even though mine has been spot on since buying it. Peter did warn me of a couple of other suppliers out there, who were shaving off a few quid by not including the fracino warranty and just supplying their own warranty. That could cause issues in the future perhaps? His price was also the best I found anywhere on this site.

If you have any more Q's, don't hesitate to ask me.


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## frustin (Feb 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Expobar Office Leva is stonking value for money. I looked at one when deciding what next to go for. In the end, went for a full lever but that's another story.


lot more money for that. is it duel heating? i saw one that was well over £1000 that was, are they all?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Yep, it's a double boiler set up, so no waiting for temp to stabilise. Comes with PID too. There's an in depth review on Bella Barista that gives the full low down. I guess the increase in price over a single boiler set up plus PID control is hard to swallow but, bangs for buck, it's a well specked machine and has a lot of followers.


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## frustin (Feb 10, 2013)

correct me if i'm wrong but the cherub is a double boiler. I dont know what PID is.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

the cherub is a single boiler with a heat exchange system

one large boiler is heated to steam temperature, and theres a tube that passes through the boiler. COld water is passed through that tube, and by coming into contact with the hot boiler, it is heated up to brew temperature. Its one way of getting the ability to brew/steam at the same time with one boiler.

the downside is that in theory a heat exchange system can get too hot, because the water is just sitting in that tube getting warmer and warmer until it is eventually used, so if a HX machine is left idle for too long, it needs flushed to cool it down.

Whats not 100% clear is if that issue affects the cherub. The E61 style brew head, has a thermosiphon on it that circulates water around the group both warming the group and cooling water in the HX circuit. According to some, the cherub does not overheat the water in the HX system as its constantly moved around, but in any case, its probably safe and good practice to do a short flush of water from the group before you pull your shot.

What i usually do is empty about 2-3oz into a cup while i'm grinding. This warms up the cup and flushes the group in one move. Then by the time im finished grinding and tamping, i can just hit the brew switch and all is well.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

frustin said:


> correct me if i'm wrong but the cherub is a double boiler. I dont know what PID is.


A PID is a proportional integral derivative controller unit. Some higher end espresso machines have them built in but you can buy a PID unit as an after fit and do it yourself. What does it do? Well, it is effectively a sophisticated control/feedback unit which exercises a much greater degree of control over your machine. Invariably, the thermostat control set up on more basic espresso machines are pretty general, that is, they operate between quite (several degrees) wide tolerance band. A good PID will keep your chosen temperature spot on thereby eliminating an unwelcome variable in espresso making. With some PID units, you can can even preinfuse your grinds in the portafilter prior to full extraction. Preinfusion adds to the overall quality of a shot in terms of taste complexity. An American company, Auber (http://www.auberins.com/), make a range of PID controller units that are well respected (see coffee forum posts). They aren't cheap but can make a significant difference.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

shrink said:


> the downside is that in theory a heat exchange system can get too hot, because the water is just sitting in that tube getting warmer and warmer until it is eventually used, so if a HX machine is left idle for too long, it needs flushed to cool it down.


Shrink, I thought the Cherub was thermosiphon design? Am I wrong here as I've not owned a Cherub. When I was doing my research on what to go for next, I spent a lot of time reading about various machine designs and configurations - their pros and cons particularly regarding, for me, the hassle of having to do a cooling flush before pulling a shot. My understanding is that a thermosiphon design is an elegant way of using simple physics to ensure the temperature in the grouphead doesn't get too hot and, as a consequence, require a cooling flush. The Londinium I is designed around a thermosiphon and, according to Reiss Gunson, can be left on all day and will never need a cooling flush. Impressive.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Read my next paragraph lol

However, I'm referring to the HX itself, not the group.the thermosiphon only really controls the temp in the group, and by proxy has some effect on the temp in the HX but likely not to the degree that if the machine is left on for ages the HX can still get too hot.

So when you do a flush, it's not to control the group temp, its to clear out the HX and pull in fresh water.

Worth noting that most machines need some kind of if flush. The only one I can think that wouldnt, would be an e61 dual boiler with PID where the thermosiphon is run from the brew boiler. That should in theory always be ready to go.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

The thermosyphon is a sealed circuit that runs from the HX to the group head and back again (the return). As water in the HX is heated, it rises and travels along the thermosyphon to the group head effectively creating a convection current within the thermosyphon. E61 style group heads are large blocks of brass that have massive thermal mass and are thermally very stable. The group head is heated by the water in the thermosyphon and will attenuate any minor temperature fluctuations in the brew water travelling through it during brewing.

The water in the thermosyphon will cool as it travels, especially as it travels through the group head, regulating the water temperature to an extent. The thermosyphons on some machines, like the Cherub, are tuned so that during brewing, water is mixed from both the hot side and the return side of the thermosyphon circuit, which further regulates the temperature during brewing. These types of HX espresso machines are sometimes referred to as "Mixers".

Some double boiler machines employ thermosyphons or saturated groups to ensure water between the boiler and the group is not allowed to cool between shots. Some double boiler machines also use a HX to pre-heat the water before it enters the brew boiler to maintain a stable temperature inside the boiler during brewing.


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## Nimble Motionists (Oct 22, 2012)

SweeneyTodd said:


> FWIW I still haven't decided whether I'm going to try another Cherub or spend a bit more and get an Expobar Office Leva


You definitely wouldn't have any drip-tray problems with the Expobar - you could bath a baby in that thing!


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