# Important Grinder Terms



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

This post is to try and clarify terms when talking about specific aspects of ANY grinder and give a basic understanding of why those terms are important. The text below is really for single dosing grinders.

*There are 3 key areas that we should care about in a grinder, in addition to grind quality:*

*
**Total Retention* - All grinds are removed, weighed and come from entire *"grind path"* of a grinder after it has ground at least 6 or 8 double shots of coffee and dose consistency normalises. To do this accurately, you must completely remove the burrs, carriers and sweep arms. The upper & lower burrs, sweep arms, burr chamber, screw heads, nooks & crannies and outlet pipes, doser etc... All need to be swept clean and the grinds collected and weighed, *if this is not done, you won't get** all the coffee out and your retention figure will be wrong.*

*Dose Consistency* - The weight of coffee in vs. the weight of coffee out. Ideally, you want this to be as close to identical as possible e.g 20g beans in = 20g ground coffee out, every time you grind. In practice, this is impossible, because of measurement error, static and *"exchange variance"*. + or - 0.3g variance between what you put in and what you get out would be considered exceptional for any grinder *but remember this isn't the whole story!*

*Exchange* - You might put 20g into a grinder and get 20g out&#8230;.but what weight of that output is stale coffee from the previous grind? This number is also variable as oily coffee is stickier and may show more exchange than non-oily coffee. When *single dosing a grinder. The exchange figure cannot be higher than the total retention, or less than the dose consistency variation. *Single Dosing: Where you don't use a hopper and only add the weight of beans you want to grind. Then grind as much out as you can, until no more comes out.

The conical grinder mentioned below is a generic 63 mm conical, larger conicals or some makes have even larger retention and can be as much as 40g of coffee!









So when talking about grinders we need to be very careful not to mislead ourselves or others. We need to be realistic about what our grinder really achieves by measuring things properly. In this way we can understand what is happening and why when we make a grind adjustment and why it may not show fully for at least 1, possibly 2 shots. How much we need to purge and why we need to purge. Most important, newcomers can easily understand what's really happening inside that grinder..

P.S. If you are using a grind on demand grinder *where it "single doses" portions from a full/partially full hopper into a portafilter* e.g. timed grind or weighed grind. It's very important to understand the difference between proper single dosing. In these circumstances, you will have the maximum "exchange" that grinder is capable and will need to purge the maximum amount of coffee required to clear that. This could mean a small flat burr grinder retaining around 6-8g in it's chamber and you might need to purge 12-14g to be clear of stale coffee! This is all because you can never really clear the chamber and at best can only clear the grind path. That chamber will fill to it's maximum amount and then grind after grind will always be giving out old coffee with the new.

hopefully the Mods will make this a sticky!


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Thanks for posting this. It's always good to standardize terms to avoid confusion.

Found the last paragraph especially helpful as think I'm guilty of not purging my mignon (loaded hopper) enough to clear the stale geounds.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Thanks for posting this. It's always good to standardize terms to avoid confusion.
> 
> Found the last paragraph especially helpful as think I'm guilty of not purging my mignon (loaded hopper) enough to clear the stale geounds.


Same here with the mazzer. I wonder I that's why I haven't enjoyed my espresso of late


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

*For grinder run with a full/partially full hopper*, Mignon a purge of 4g is probably just OK, Mazzer Mini perhaps 6g, SJ perhaps 8g. These numbers assume no clearing of grind chute after grinding. If you clear the grind chute you can perhaps lower by 1g (except for mignon where you can't really reach easily). Even with a 18g double if 4/5g is stale coffee, then that's around 27%, I think we can taste that and it affects the shot as well.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

I can't help thinking the best option is to have a coffee every 15 minutes during the day so the grinds are never stale!!


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Missy said:


> I can't help thinking the best option is to have a coffee every 15 minutes during the day so the grinds are never stale!!


With that kind of regularity I may have to go down to singles just so I don't burst!


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## Kitkat (Jan 25, 2018)

Missy said:


> I can't help thinking the best option is to have a coffee every 15 minutes during the day so the grinds are never stale!!


Sounds good to me.


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## JayMac (Mar 28, 2015)

Dave, thanks for that. You describe the process of measuring 1 well, but not 3 (Exchange). In your Niche review you mentioned a method that I think basically involved contaminating with flour as I recall. Is that about the only way to do it? Could you describe such a method here and give an idea of its accuracy? I ask because to me it is Exchange that is arguably all that really matters and simply directly measuring that on people's own kit would be very interesting.

Thanks again.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

JayMac said:


> Dave, thanks for that. You describe the process of measuring 1 well, but not 3 (Exchange). In your Niche review you mentioned a method that I think basically involved contaminating with flour as I recall. Is that about the only way to do it? Could you describe such a method here and give an idea of its accuracy? I ask because to me it is Exchange that is arguably all that really matters and simply directly measuring that on people's own kit would be very interesting.
> 
> Thanks again.


Each grinder is going to be different....the way the Niche was built allowed me to do it with some considerable accuracy....it might be very difficult on most grinders. This is because the burrs and sweep arms might need to come out completely, not te easiest thing on most grinders. I guess a person needs to be quite inventive to do it. I don't believe anyone has ever measured exchange before.

Take a flat burr grinder, you can assume anything in the burrs (brushed out) exchanges and anything in the screw holes probably doesn't, but to get the burrs out you have to disturb what's in the screw holes. Stuff above the sweep arms probably doesn't exchange and a proportion of stuff under the burr carriers. Everything in the visible part of the chamber where the sweep arms run probably exchanges. However what a job to try and measure all those things and even remove the burr carriers themselves. I don't know how it could accurately be done. I imagine with most you might have to estimate but even to do that you have to remove the burr carriers and examine the state of what's under there?

I can say that I am pretty certain the Niche retains and exchanges an extraordinarily small amount, due to the way it's constructed...most commercial grinders were never constructed with that as a concern and their smaller domestic brethren just copied a similar philosophy. It's only when you get to the exotica e.g. monolith, EG1, Versalab, HG1 etc.. that these concerns become things they worry about again. Unfortunately they don't really use the right definitions, let's hope that changes.


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## JayMac (Mar 28, 2015)

Thanks again Dave. The chemist and engineer in me will try and think of a non-invasive method. Probably a grinder and coffee expert would tell me I'm wrong though.

At first thought it seems like if you grind something instantly distinguishable from coffee, that grinds like coffee, you would get a decent indication by measuring the amount of normal coffee that comes out prior to a majority of fake coffee exhibiting in the first grind after real coffee. That makes a few assumptions, and could only be so accurate but doesn't seem crazy. Now where did I put those fluorescent yellow coffee beans?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

JayMac said:


> Thanks again Dave. The chemist and engineer in me will try and think of a non-invasive method. Probably a grinder and coffee expert would tell me I'm wrong though.
> 
> At first thought it seems like if you grind something instantly distinguishable from coffee, that grinds like coffee, you would get a decent indication by measuring the amount of normal coffee that comes out prior to a majority of fake coffee exhibiting in the first grind after real coffee. That makes a few assumptions, and could only be so accurate but doesn't seem crazy. Now where did I put those fluorescent yellow coffee beans?


I have actually tried dying coffee beans, but it doesn't go all the way through (well at least i couldn't get it to) and the beans have to be dried out again. I have tried very light and very dark beans, but the mixing is such I couldn't tell. Even so you still got to lever off the burr carrier without disturbing anything.


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## LukeT (Aug 6, 2017)

Re exchange, does cleaning with "Grindz" offer at least an illustration of how much purging is required before there's very little of the old coming through? On my mignon the white stuff is still visible after more than just a few grams (not measured - I run a fair amount of old beans through before any fresh, as per the Grindz instructions) of coffee is run through. However when I purge before a shot I have tended to purge maybe 2g typically, probably not enough, and seems wrong in hindsight given the above observation.

(sorry if this is a stupid question - I'm a novice!)


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

LukeT said:


> Re exchange, does cleaning with "Grindz" offer at least an illustration of how much purging is required before there's very little of the old coming through? On my mignon the white stuff is still visible after more than just a few grams (not measured - I run a fair amount of old beans through before any fresh, as per the Grindz instructions) of coffee is run through. However when I purge before a shot I have tended to purge maybe 2g typically, probably not enough, and seems wrong in hindsight given the above observation.
> 
> (sorry if this is a stupid question - I'm a novice!)


You are quite correct 2g is not really enough and grindz is a tool that can give an idea of the the size of purge needed but remember 2 things, you will always see a few specs of white for a while and it's not quite the same as coffee. You just have to decide when the grindz amount is small enough so that size purge will give you a reasonably clean shot. It's also worth pointing out (I know it's obvious), that the size of purge is the same whether you are making single or double shots. Perversely the purge can be a bit smaller for a double, because the % mix is 50% lower.

It's not a stupid question and I did say earlier I thought 4g is probably just OK...which you seem to have confirmed.



> *For grinder run with a full/partially full hopper*, Mignon a purge of 4g is probably just OK, Mazzer Mini perhaps 6g, SJ perhaps 8g. These numbers assume no clearing of grind chute after grinding. If you clear the grind chute you can perhaps lower by 1g (except for mignon where you can't really reach easily). Even with a 18g double if 4/5g is stale coffee, then that's around 27%, I think we can taste that and it affects the shot as well.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> *Dose Consistency* - The weight of coffee in vs. the weight of coffee out. Ideally, you want this to be as close to identical as possible e.g 20g beans in = 20g ground coffee out, every time you grind. In practice, this is impossible, because of measurement error, static and *"exchange variance"*. + or - 0.3g variance between what you put in and what you get out would be considered exceptional for any grinder *but remember this isn't the whole story!*


Why is 20g in, 20g out impossible? Measurement error can be reduced rather well, same with static.

Also, I have to ask, which manufacturer got what wrong that the above definitions had to be posted?

T.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dsc said:


> Why is 20g in, 20g out impossible? Measurement error can be reduced rather well, same with static.
> 
> Also, I have to ask, which manufacturer got what wrong that the above definitions had to be posted?
> 
> T.


I guess I meant 20g in of 20g out of the exact same thing that went in (but it also holds true for dose consistency). As you rightly say you can *reduce* measurement error and static, but you can't eliminate them. You can reduce the amount of exchange (and variance) but not eliminate it. You can look at different manufacturers and even retailers videos about low retention grinders yourself....but you rarely see the terms properly defined, or covered. However if you think the terms are not valid, not relevant or not useful, feel free to explain why. If you know of manufacturers or retailers who do properly cover these areas again please quote any examples..

*If you personally don't find these terms even remotely useful, that's understandable as you have built your own grinder and I am sure instinctively understand the issues.* However, it wasn't written to help you, it was to help all those new to coffee and to give us reference points when we talk about it, again to help those new to coffee understand. *But if you feel it's not useful to those new to coffee, I'd be happy to see better suggestions*...I've no problem with that at all and will be happy to see this unmade as a sticky to make way for any better definitions etc.. you have.

Having proper measurements, reference points and terms helps us and those new to coffee. It's far better they avoid mistakes and with the drop in sales, the manufacturers make the stuff better...the informed consumer is king and we can all help with that. In fact It would be fantastic for more experienced people to take the time to share their knowledge in all areas in a constructive way for those new to coffee..we often argue detailed points in the forums, but it's not very useful for new users.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I've got nothing against the above definitions as they are correct, the only thing I'd argue is the 0.3g bit. It is true of course that every measurement comes with an error, but I'd say that 0.1g difference between what goes in and what goes out is not something dreams are made of and it's definitely fairly easy to confirm with a set of precise scales (not the £3 imports for jewellery from ebay). As for static, it's easily and cheaply battled with an atomiser, normally 2-3 sprays are enough to get nice clean grinds with no cling (this added moisture weight can be calculated into the dose, but I wouldn't think it's more than 0.05g).

I personally hardly ever see grinder manufacturers mentioning retention at all as it's not really something the industry cares much about. When it happens though it's retention understood as the difference between what comes out and what went in, so in line with the original post. You have said however that you've seen some terms used incorrectly, so I asked where and when it happened as I'm genuinely curious (the sales crap some companies create when selling products is normally quite entertaining).

T.


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## iulianato (May 5, 2015)

dsc said:


> I've got nothing against the above definitions as they are correct, the only thing I'd argue is the 0.3g bit. It is true of course that every measurement comes with an error, but I'd say that 0.1g difference between what goes in and what goes out is not something dreams are made of and it's definitely fairly easy to confirm with a set of precise scales (not the £3 imports for jewellery from ebay). As for static, it's easily and cheaply battled with an atomiser, normally 2-3 sprays are enough to get nice clean grinds with no cling (this added moisture weight can be calculated into the dose, but I wouldn't think it's more than 0.05g).
> 
> I personally hardly ever see grinder manufacturers mentioning retention at all as it's not really something the industry cares much about. When it happens though it's retention understood as the difference between what comes out and what went in, so in line with the original post. You have said however that you've seen some terms used incorrectly, so I asked where and when it happened as I'm genuinely curious (the sales crap some companies create when selling products is normally quite entertaining).
> 
> T.


Oh, very often the retention is confused with the exchange.

See https://cafefairtrade.co.uk/ceado-e37s-coffee-grinder/

for example. In there states that E37s retentention is 5.5-7g.


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Great primer Dave. Nice if we are all singing from the same hymn sheet


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

dsc said:


> ........ You have said however that you've seen some terms used incorrectly, so I asked where and when it happened as I'm genuinely curious (the sales crap some companies create when selling products is normally quite entertaining).
> 
> T.


I understood DavecUK to mean among forum members, and in discussions among coffee folk, as well as adverts for grinders, not using retention and other words in the true sense of the word.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

iulianato said:


> Oh, very often the retention is confused with the exchange.
> 
> See https://cafefairtrade.co.uk/ceado-e37s-coffee-grinder/
> 
> for example. In there states that E37s retentention is 5.5-7g.


I wouldn't necessarily agree, whatever is stuck in the grinder is still retention. Exchange is whatever gets mixed in with the fresh grind, it exists due to retention, but that is really hard to judge without fancy methods (you'd probably want some colour markers for powders and grind several doses to see how it all mixes inside, what gets stuck, what comes out etc.). It is possible that once packed, a grinder doesn't chuck out much of the stale stuff stuck inside (see coffee packed bolt heads), or it might be the exact opposite (this most likely depends on how often it is used, what coffee is ground etc.). Due to this everyone was always aiming for the lowest total retention possible, cause if you lower that, you lower the exchange (which is in line with Dave's definitions).

I'd say that exchange will vary over time and depends on too many things to put a number on it.

T.


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## iulianato (May 5, 2015)

dsc said:


> I wouldn't necessarily agree, whatever is stuck in the grinder is still retention. Exchange is whatever gets mixed in with the fresh grind, it exists due to retention, but that is really hard to judge without fancy methods (you'd probably want some colour markers for powders and grind several doses to see how it all mixes inside, what gets stuck, what comes out etc.). It is possible that once packed, a grinder doesn't chuck out much of the stale stuff stuck inside (see coffee packed bolt heads), or it might be the exact opposite (this most likely depends on how often it is used, what coffee is ground etc.). Due to this everyone was always aiming for the lowest total retention possible, cause if you lower that, you lower the exchange (which is in line with Dave's definitions).
> 
> I'd say that exchange will vary over time and depends on too many things to put a number on it.
> 
> T.


I completely agree with you. My point is that the retention there is not real. The retention (as defined here) is higher for that grinder and it might refer to exchange but as everyone agree the exchange is very difficult to measure.


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## Mark1966 (Oct 25, 2018)

Thnank you to the OP ....great advice.


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## Frider (May 1, 2019)

Really good and informative post Dave - thanks for enlightening me on the technical terms.

I never liked the process of effectively wasting grinds each morning by purging the grinder of yesterdays stale coffee so now for each shot I weigh each out the beans before adding to the grinder then I use a manual bellows (actually an old contact lens solution bottle) to blow through remaining grinds then use a soft brush to sweep any remaining grinds on the cone into the portafilter. Its not a perfect purge but it avoids the waste and makes a huge difference to the taste of the coffee vs. getting the 15 hour old grinds....


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## DDoe (May 25, 2019)

As a complete novice I was unaware that the grinder was so important, insofar as it's effects on the quality of each shot.


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## hotCUPPA (Sep 24, 2019)

dsc said:


> Exchange is whatever gets mixed in with the fresh grind, it exists due to retention, but that is really hard to judge without fancy methods





DavecUK said:


> *Exchange* - You might put 20g into a grinder and get 20g out&#8230;.but what weight of that output is stale coffee from the previous grind?
> 
> P.S. If you are using a grind on demand grinder *where it "single doses" portions from a full/partially full hopper into a portafilter* e.g. timed grind or weighed grind. It's very important to understand the difference between proper single dosing. In these circumstances, you will have the maximum "exchange" that grinder is capable and will need to purge the maximum amount of coffee required to clear that. This could mean a small flat burr grinder retaining around 6-8g in it's chamber and you might need to purge 12-14g to be clear of stale coffee! This is all because you can never really clear the chamber and at best can only clear the grind path. That chamber will fill to it's maximum amount and then grind after grind will always be giving out old coffee with the new.


 Bearing in mind what's been quoted, which grinders are known for having the least amount of stale coffee mixed in from previous grinds?

Which grinders would you recommend for someone looking for minimum waste? (Minimum purge, minimum retention, minimum exchange)

This would be exclusively for espresso, 2 single very short shots a day.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

hotCUPPA said:


> Bearing in mind what's been quoted, which grinders are known for having the least amount of stale coffee mixed in from previous grinds?
> Which grinders would you recommend for someone looking for minimum waste? (Minimum purge, minimum retention, minimum exchange)
> This would be exclusively for espresso, 2 single very short shots a day.


Niche


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

hotCUPPA said:


> Bearing in mind what's been quoted, which grinders are known for having the least amount of stale coffee mixed in from previous grinds?
> 
> Which grinders would you recommend for someone looking for minimum waste? (Minimum purge, minimum retention, minimum exchange)
> 
> This would be exclusively for espresso, 2 single very short shots a day.


 I think this is aimed at me and I would love to advise you once I know a bit more about your budget and available space. The problem is that I will get accused of bias or business interest (whatever I say). So I will leave it for those souls completely without sin and no ulterior motives to give you some fantastic advice, advice you can trust.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

hotCUPPA said:


> Bearing in mind what's been quoted, which grinders are known for having the least amount of stale coffee mixed in from previous grinds?
> 
> Which grinders would you recommend for someone looking for minimum waste? (Minimum purge, minimum retention, minimum exchange)
> 
> This would be exclusively for espresso, 2 single very short shots a day.


 Monolith conical or flat would fit the bill nicely. They occasionally crop up second hand.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Any properly designed single dosing grinder will deliver what you desire, just bear in mind that the more static the more retention, so be sure to use WDT (add a droplet of water to your dose) before grinding.

T.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

@coffeechap has loads of knowledge and experience of singles dosers ,worth asking him ..


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

@hotCUPPA As has been said before, knowing your budget would help a lot, also knowing whether you would consider second hand, or if you are happy to some modifications ?

People successfully single dose modified commercial grinders, with negligible style coffee transition. It will all be down to how much effort you want to put in.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MildredM said:


> Monolith conical or flat would fit the bill nicely. They occasionally crop up second hand.


 Where ?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Where ?


 There was a flat on eBay last week! Went for £1650

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kafatek-Monolit-Flat-Muhle-Espresso-Single-Dosing/223657710510?hash=item341309d3ae:g:UmcAAOSwk~9ddoWJ#vi__app-cvip-panel


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Where ?


 Here and there ^^ ?


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

MildredM said:


> Here and there ^^ ?


 Stop teasing ???


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

coffeechap said:


> There was a flat on eBay last week! Went for £1650
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kafatek-Monolit-Flat-Muhle-Espresso-Single-Dosing/223657710510?hash=item341309d3ae:g:UmcAAOSwk~9ddoWJ#vi__app-cvip-panel


 too high for regular burrs


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

L&R said:


> too high for regular burrs


 Not to someone, they hold their value very well indeed, @MildredMone is going up week by week


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

coffeechap said:


> There was a flat on eBay last week! Went for £1650
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kafatek-Monolit-Flat-Muhle-Espresso-Single-Dosing/223657710510?hash=item341309d3ae:g:UmcAAOSwk~9ddoWJ#vi__app-cvip-panel


eBay takes the word similar to a whole new level!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

ashcroc said:


> eBay takes the word similar to a whole new level!


 I know, completely nuts, although the Rocky does look quite ...........


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

coffeechap said:


> I know, completely nuts, although the Rocky does look quite ...........


I'd love to see someone convert one into a Kafetek clone!


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> Not to someone, they hold their value very well indeed, @MildredMone is going up week by week


 It's my pension ?


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> I know, completely nuts, although the Rocky does look quite ...........


 Careful ? you could get banned for such comments ?


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

ashcroc said:


> coffeechap said:
> 
> 
> > I know, completely nuts, although the Rocky does look quite ...........
> ...


 I've got a hacksaw ??


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

MildredM said:


> It's my pension ?


 No once the Max is on the market , they will go down in price ... sell sell sell ?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

hotCUPPA said:


> Bearing in mind what's been quoted, which grinders are known for having the least amount of stale coffee mixed in from previous grinds?
> 
> Which grinders would you recommend for someone looking for minimum waste? (Minimum purge, minimum retention, minimum exchange)
> 
> This would be exclusively for espresso, 2 single very short shots a day.


 That isn't that easy a question to answer. In general a grinder used with a hopper on will have retention that stays there. Generally more in a conical grinder than one that uses flat burrs. So if some one wants to be sure that they are using totally fresh grounds they need to purge that retention out by wasting grinds. Also decide how long grinds can be left there before they should purge. To be honest when I used one grinder like this I didn't purge at all and was pulling at least 2 or 3 shots a day. I couldn't detect any difference if I did so decided not to bother. The reason for not noticing any difference is probably that a packed grind chamber and exit from it isn't exposing much coffee to air. If for any reason the grinder wasn't used for a longer period I purged. In fact if going on holiday etc I would empty it as grinds can bind up.

Remove the hopper and any obstructions in the exit from the grind chamber and weigh beans in changes the above. Retention is then much lower but getting all of the grinds from a weight of beans out isn't straight forwards. For instance some fit a rubber lens hood and compress it to generate a puff of air to blow remaining grinds out and then use a brush to get more out. I found on a grinder that I did this with that I needed to spin the grinder up yet again and use a brush again to get the last very small fraction of a gram out. This is what was needed to get what went in to come out other wise the small fractions left behind would either build up or come out at some point.

This can then be compared with grinders that are designed for weighing in. There aim is to get what goes in to come out with out any effort from the user. Pass on all of these as I have only used Niche. Maybe @MildredM will comment on the ones she has. Others around have other makes. This thread started as a result of Niche and you can find details of the results in a review on the Niche web site. I haven't seen or measured any differences that would disagree with the review. There is one aspect that probably relates to the beans i use which aren't very grinder friendly. A rather small quantity of grinds collects near the antistatic grills at the top of it's spout.Once there they remain there - if I remove them for a clean they have to be poked with a stick of some sort to get them out. A brush wont do it. Static now the burrs are run in is extremely low. Clumping none existent other than the occasional lump of very lowly compacted grinds. A tap of the portafilter or the grinds can breaks them up so they are of no consequence.

John

-


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Nicknak said:


> No once the Max is on the market , they will go down in price ... sell sell sell ?


 That just looks like blind hope


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

coffeechap said:


> That just looks like blind hope


 No my mind is on something else , that is out of stock ?


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

coffeechap said:


> That just looks like blind hope


 And possibly a motor for my HG-1


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Nicknak said:


> And possibly a motor for my HG-1


 Now thats a plan


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

coffeechap said:


> Now thats a plan


 No ... you are supposed to say I know where I can get one ?. They are out of stock as well ?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Nicknak said:


> No ... you are supposed to say I know where I can get one ?. They are out of stock as well ?


 I have one, unfortunately it is attached to my hg1


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

coffeechap said:


> I have one, unfortunately it is attached to my hg1


 Do you rate the kit ..The version two looks quite snazzy . Have been looking around at motors to DIY .


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Nicknak said:


> Do you rate the kit ..The version two looks quite snazzy . Have been looking around at motors to DIY .


 It r\transforms the hg1 into a bean eating monster


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> That just looks like blind hope


 Agree, it's not like they will flood the market with Max's is it, the rate of production for them.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> Agree, it's not like they will flood the market with Max's is it, the rate of production for them.


 It was said in jest ..... private joke


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Nicknak said:


> It was said in jest ..... private joke


"and the words that I told you were only in jest - and it's no nay never, no nay never no more..."


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Nicknak said:


> Do you rate the kit ..The version two looks quite snazzy . Have been looking around at motors to DIY .


 You've not mentioned the Hedone. Might be ex stock. There are some results of retention tests on that one varies 0,1 ~ 0.3g. Some very extensive tests on the german sites.

 I don't know why but I thought about posting some theme music to help you in your quest,  Then thought better not. It was by Heart,

John

-


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

ajohn said:


> You've not mentioned the Hedone. Might be ex stock. There are some results of retention tests on that one varies 0,1 ~ 0.3g. Some very extensive tests on the german sites.
> 
> I don't know why but I thought about posting some theme music to help you in your quest,  Then thought better not. It was by Heart,
> 
> ...


 My dear @ajohn you do baffle me sometimes but you make me smile ? . My post relates to my HG-1 and the wug2grinder motor attachment . Which is only made in small batches .. I did mention the Hedone in another thread on single dosing grinders. My main desire is for a EG-1 which after my wife said " Don't know why you don't get one " went on my shopping list . It was in stock then , but I got distracted by the Monolith flat and the Eg-1 became out of stock .

As an aside the Wug2 will be taking pre orders at the end of the month ?

I would like a theme song ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Nicknak said:


> My dear @ajohn you do baffle me sometimes but you make me smile ? . My post relates to my HG-1 and the wug2grinder motor attachment . Which is only made in small batches .. I did mention the Hedone in another thread on single dosing grinders. My main desire is for a EG-1 which after my wife said " Don't know why you don't get one " went on my shopping list . It was in stock then , but I got distracted by the Monolith flat and the Eg-1 became out of stock .
> 
> As an aside the Wug2 will be taking pre orders at the end of the month ?
> 
> I would like a theme song ?


 Eg1 and UK exchange rate , I hope it improves for you .


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> Eg1 and UK exchange rate , I hope it improves for you .


 It would be nice , but I would only spend it on something else .. My aim would be to have nothing in my account when they cart me off to the old people home .?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Nicknak said:


> It would be nice , but I would only spend it on something else .. My aim would be to have nothing in my account when they cart me off to the old people home .?


 Better get spending quick then ?


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

coffeechap said:


> Better get spending quick then ?


 Is it showing ?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Nicknak said:


> My dear @ajohn you do baffle me sometimes but you make me smile ? . My post relates to my HG-1 and the wug2grinder motor attachment . Which is only made in small batches .. I did mention the Hedone in another thread on single dosing grinders. My main desire is for a EG-1 which after my wife said " Don't know why you don't get one " went on my shopping list . It was in stock then , but I got distracted by the Monolith flat and the Eg-1 became out of stock .
> 
> As an aside the Wug2 will be taking pre orders at the end of the month ?
> 
> I would like a theme song ?


  They need to do 2 versions replacing ship with grinder in one and espresso machine in another






 No idea why that one sprang to mind.

The exchange rate is a plot to increase the cost of chlorinated chicken.

John

-


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Nicknak said:


> Is it showing ?


 I wondered what that was. Very nice. Now put it away ?


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

ajohn said:


> They need to do 2 versions replacing ship with grinder in one and espresso machine in another
> 
> No idea why that one sprang to mind.
> 
> ...


 I was hoping for something with more oomph ? .. No dreaming here ?.. Once I get my paddle attachment the machine will keep for a little while longer . Grinder as long as it takes to make them .. unless something better comes along ?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Nicknak said:


> I was hoping for something with more oomph  .. No dreaming here .. Once I get my paddle attachment the machine will keep for a little while longer . Grinder as long as it takes to make them .. unless something better comes along


No idea why, but 



 springs to mind.


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## Planter (Apr 12, 2017)

L&R said:


> too high for regular burrs


There is huge demand for these because of the limited supply. Regular burrs or not that is probably a fair price. The bidding would also agree.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## hotCUPPA (Sep 24, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> hotCUPPA said:
> 
> 
> > Bearing in mind what's been quoted, which grinders are known for having the least amount of stale coffee mixed in from previous grinds?
> ...


 Was this inspired by the Nespresso Gusto? Although it is what I'm looking for, rather not have to avoid looking at it in the morning.



DavecUK said:


> I think this is aimed at me and I would love to advise you once I know a bit more about your budget and available space. The problem is that I will get accused of bias or business interest (whatever I say). So I will leave it for those souls completely without sin and no ulterior motives to give you some fantastic advice, advice you can trust.


 Space is not a problem, budget is. Bellow £400 bought second hand, but I'm value conscious so if there's something for £150 that performs 90% as the £400 then I'd go with £150, so a few options would be very welcome. Would pay more than £400 for some added benefit, super quiet or well designed...



MildredM said:


> Monolith conical or flat would fit the bill nicely. They occasionally crop up second hand.


 Shit! I will get the silver one, not now, but added to the wish list. Is there a poor man's version?



dsc said:


> Any properly designed single dosing grinder will deliver what you desire, just bear in mind that the more static the more retention, so be sure to use WDT (add a droplet of water to your dose) before grinding.
> 
> T.


 Thanks. Would you know any that were properly designed?



coffeechap said:


> @hotCUPPA As has been said before, knowing your budget would help a lot, also knowing whether you would consider second hand, or if you are happy to some modifications ?
> 
> People successfully single dose modified commercial grinders, with negligible style coffee transition. It will all be down to how much effort you want to put in.


 Would prefer second hand and open to perform the modification if well documented, I'm not handy but can follow instructions well.



ajohn said:


> That isn't that easy a question to answer. In general a grinder used with a hopper on will have retention that stays there. Generally more in a conical grinder than one that uses flat burrs. So if some one wants to be sure that they are using totally fresh grounds they need to purge that retention out by wasting grinds. Also decide how long grinds can be left there before they should purge. To be honest when I used one grinder like this I didn't purge at all and was pulling at least 2 or 3 shots a day. I couldn't detect any difference if I did so decided not to bother. The reason for not noticing any difference is probably that a packed grind chamber and exit from it isn't exposing much coffee to air. If for any reason the grinder wasn't used for a longer period I purged. In fact if going on holiday etc I would empty it as grinds can bind up.
> 
> Remove the hopper and any obstructions in the exit from the grind chamber and weigh beans in changes the above. Retention is then much lower but getting all of the grinds from a weight of beans out isn't straight forwards. For instance some fit a rubber lens hood and compress it to generate a puff of air to blow remaining grinds out and then use a brush to get more out. I found on a grinder that I did this with that I needed to spin the grinder up yet again and use a brush again to get the last very small fraction of a gram out. This is what was needed to get what went in to come out other wise the small fractions left behind would either build up or come out at some point.
> 
> ...


 Thanks. That's what made me ask the question, I can't look at those commercial like grinders and not think they were designed for high volume where retention isn't an issue, which grinder like this were you using that it didn't require purging? I'd be fine with removing the hopper and the obstructions, but would prefer something with minimal faffing, which bring us back to the Niche, shame it's not for my taste.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

hotCUPPA said:


> Thanks. That's what made me ask the question, I can't look at those commercial like grinders and not think they were designed for high volume where retention isn't an issue, which grinder like this were you using that it didn't require purging? I'd be fine with removing the hopper and the obstructions, but would prefer something with minimal faffing, which bring us back to the Niche, shame it's not for my taste.


 What is it you don't like about it?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

In fact if you make 2 more posts there is a very nice one in the for sale section for £415 including postage. It would seem to be close to your budget. I think it meets your stated needs (apart from the so far unknown taste issue). It's going to be a lot smaller than the commercial grinders you may have already been offered and not so far outside your budget as to be not worthy of consideration. I know it't not liked for me to mention the Niche, but I am sure the well respected and well known forum member selling it won't mind. It's a cracking buy.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48064-niche-zero-black-%C2%A3415-posted/?do=embed


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## hotCUPPA (Sep 24, 2019)

I don't like the design of the Niche at all. Looks like a cheap plastic toy with bad aesthetics. Sorry, I didn't want to get into the negatives, so I won't go on, it's just not my taste and I rather look for an alternative.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

One way or the other Niche is the minimal faffing about grinder.That one just leaves levelling a heap of grinds that are likely to be lopsided.

I've had similar results weighing in on a Sage Smart Grinder Pro. The catch with that one is getting it stable from being dead clean. Sage deliberately compact some grinds in the chamber and the more compacted they are the more accurate the output is. It's not difficult to deal with that. Check weigh and add more beans until it settles. Once it has don't clean unless its needed. There will be some carry over if the type of beans are changed but it's best to just put up with that. My impression was that 20g of the new beans got rid of taste from the previous one. The need for cleaning crops up if beans happen to stick to the exit from the grind chamber. One bean I use a lot did that pretty quickly.

The other one was a mazzer mini used this way but no flap and more operations






I made a weight to sit on top of the beans that loosely fitted in the throat of the grinder to stop them bouncing about so more similar to how they are ground with the hopper on but still not the same. Following what the video shows I removed the weight and brushed what could be seen of the burrs, put it back and spun up the grinder again and gave it another puff of air with the lens hood. Then brushed the grind chamber exit again. It was a mazzer mini e. The funnel is essential to use grinders this way. The electronics on my E broke and the grinder started to fire up briefly all on it's own. This could be down to removing the anti static grid. Some people buy a grinder with a doser on and fit it with a modified octopus funnel - that description of them makes them easier to find on ebay. Or some other funnel. The weight I used has another purpose as well. Keeps grinds in the throat of the grinder. Without it the inside of the lens hood gets covered in them. Some just fit a cover to the lens hood otherwise some grinds would be found around the grinder.

So that's how I achieved an accuracy of 0.1g. I want that as I used fixed timed shots and just check the shot weight that comes out and want minimise variations in that.

I also used the SGP with the hopper on and timed doses. I found it possible to keep the dose within circa 0.2g. Lot's of changes to the grind timer initially but that settled down. Not done much of this as the bean I use daily tends to clump rather badly in grinders as they come. They don't really clump at all on Niche or the Mini used as above.

 I haven't fitted the replacement Mini electronics yet for obvious reasons. It was provided FOC under warrantee.

John

-


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

hotCUPPA said:


> I don't like the design of the Niche at all. Looks like a cheap plastic toy with bad aesthetics. Sorry, I didn't want to get into the negatives, so I won't go on, it's just not my taste and I rather look for an alternative.


 No, it's good to understand the reasons and yours seem completely valid. No one can say that your dislike of the aesthetics is wrong.....never apologise for that. If we didn't have preferences we would all have the same machine and grinder. There are some people that believe there is only 1 machine and grinder worth having...me I like lots of different machines and grinders. I own 4 different dual boiler machines and I like them all in different ways.

With this hobby, you must buy what you like (as long as it technically does the job) because you are spending a lot of money.

This thread has been derailed so far from the original intent about grinder terms that it doesn't matter what you write.


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## Planter (Apr 12, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> In fact if you make 2 more posts there is a very nice one in the for sale section for £415 including postage. It would seem to be close to your budget. I think it meets your stated needs (apart from the so far unknown taste issue). It's going to be a lot smaller than the commercial grinders you may have already been offered and not so far outside your budget as to be not worthy of consideration. I know it't not liked for me to mention the Niche, but I am sure the well respected and well known forum member selling it won't mind. It's a cracking buy.
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48064-niche-zero-black-%C2%A3415-posted/?do=embed


 Thanks for trying Dave, much appreciated.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

hotCUPPA said:


> I don't like the design of the Niche at all. Looks like a cheap plastic toy with bad aesthetics. Sorry, I didn't want to get into the negatives, so I won't go on, it's just not my taste and I rather look for an alternative.


 For under £400 good luck.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

hotCUPPA said:


> I don't like the design of the Niche at all. Looks like a cheap plastic toy with bad aesthetics. Sorry, I didn't want to get into the negatives, so I won't go on, it's just not my taste and I rather look for an alternative.


 A better description really is solidly built using cheaper plastic parts in places. The life of the cheaper bits is TBD but we have been assured that they wont be expensive.

It also has more attention to certain details than commercial grinders. Namely adjustment and the use of conical burrs which are an asset for when beans are weighed in. Compared with say a Mazzer the ease of adjustment is actually a big advantage. It's also designed for weighing in. The tilt again relates to weighing in and retention.The reason for the puff of air on say a Mazzer is down to the length the grinds need to go to get out and how that is done. Also the design of the part that throws them out. Tilting shortens the path length, otherwise it tends to be set by the size of the motor and portafilters. Conical burrs tend to pull grinds though themselves all on there own. Flat use centrifugal force - rather a lot of it usually.

Grinders for home use in my view are always likely to be a compromise of one sort or another so it's a case of taking your pick really and deciding which way to go.

John

-


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> A better description really is solidly built using cheaper plastic parts in places. The life of the cheaper bits is TBD but we have been assured that they wont be expensive.
> It also has more attention to certain details than commercial grinders. Namely adjustment and the use of conical burrs which are an asset for when beans are weighed in. Compared with say a Mazzer the ease of adjustment is actually a big advantage. It's also designed for weighing in. The tilt again relates to weighing in and retention.The reason for the puff of air on say a Mazzer is down to the length the grinds need to go to get out and how that is done. Also the design of the part that throws them out. Tilting shortens the path length, otherwise it tends to be set by the size of the motor and portafilters. Conical burrs tend to pull grinds though themselves all on there own. Flat use centrifugal force - rather a lot of it usually.
> Grinders for home use in my view are always likely to be a compromise of one sort or another so it's a case of taking your pick really and deciding which way to go.
> John
> -


So it's use of commercial burrs (as found in a Mazzer Kong) means the niche has more attention to detail than a commercial grinder? Kindly explain your logic please.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> ajohn said:
> 
> 
> > A better description really is solidly built using cheaper plastic parts in places. The life of the cheaper bits is TBD but we have been assured that they wont be expensive.
> ...


 As I see it I already have. The Kong will retain more and may if used for weighing in retain less if a rubber lens hood is added.

John

-


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> As I see it I already have. The Kong will retain more and may if used for weighing in retain less if a rubber lens hood is added.
> John
> -


Think you're confusing the burrs used with the grind path.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> ajohn said:
> 
> 
> > As I see it I already have. The Kong will retain more and may if used for weighing in retain less if a rubber lens hood is added.
> ...


 I don't so out.

John

-


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> I don't so out.
> John
> -


Same here. No point since you're claiming the exact same burrs are somehow different!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Perhaps I was a bit terse. I mentioned conical burrs specifically without mentioning make but did mention why. DaveC it seems persuaded them to use Mazzer OEM rather than stainless - which you might say is yet more attention to detail. Mazzer adjustment has a silly - apart from some being extremely stiff. It's down to the clearance on the ears that stop the burr carrier from rotating. It needs to be accounted for when making very small adjustments in one direction. In fact when I made those I took the trouble to centralise the play knowing that grinding force would push them in one direction.

John

-


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)




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## hotCUPPA (Sep 24, 2019)

> On 27/09/2019 at 11:55, ajohn said:
> 
> One way or the other Niche is the minimal faffing about grinder.That one just leaves levelling a heap of grinds that are likely to be lopsided.
> 
> ...


 thank you for the video and the write up, very helpful, that sounds doable so I'll keep a Mazzer like grind in mind as a viable option as the puff of air is pretty straightforward and actually sort of gives me some comfort knowing that I can blow the air through, I enjoy the mechanical feedback. I'd most likely end up not brushing the burrs and be satisfied with the puff of air. My only worry is your mention of static, I'd assume the engineers at Mazzer have worked on this and I wouldn't want to mess with it.

Have you looked inside the Sage Smart Grinder Pro? I"m curious to know if the coffee gets in contact with any plastic parts.

I almost missed one of your comments where you mentioned the Hedone grinder, I looked into it and it ticks all the boxes.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The hedone delivers doughnut shaped rings of grinds. Understand some similar ones that use conical burrs do as well. That would put me off due to my odd hobby - getting exactly the same shot out in a fixed time. I suspect in this direction @MildredM super expensive grinders rule the roost. As I have never used one I can only suspect.

Sage had a problem some time ago with the grinders. The tips of the impeller under the burrs that drives the grinds out used to wear and made of plastic. It seems that this could happen in 18months of heavier home use. It's now a metal part. They also had some problems with grinders not getting down to espresso levels and sold shims to some people to allow them to adjust them. Later they redesigned the burr holder to make it adjustable. What I suspect was actually happening was incorrect calibration in the factory. There have been a couple of problems like this with Barista Express's. Now I have seen a new grinder being installed in one I have seen how they are calibrated. Adjusted manually until the burrs touch and then the "dial parts" aligned to suite. The grind chamber is plastic as well. They needn't leave grinds that the impeller can't sweep out but do. Once it's built up and solidified it prevents the grinds chamber from wearing. Done on purpose - I'd say very very likely. The group that owns them spends millions on development on all sorts.

Static doesn't seem to be a problem with them from my use. Clumping maybe with some beans but that isn't unusual with any grinder. They tend to be slated when ever they are mentioned. Not fair IMHO. One comment that cropped up when discussed was "very convenient but what it does in the cup is interesting". That doesn't mean bad. I also recollect seeing a photo of what comes out of an EK43. The comment was that the user couldn't remember if that produced a god shot or not.

I think eventually you will conclude that easy adjustment is a rather good idea.  I'm unlikely to take the advice from the Retired Mazzer Benevolence Society.

The use of the rubber lens hood for the puff sometimes means that short lengths of suitably sized perspex tube are needed by the way. Some Mazzers don't need that.

John

-


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## hotCUPPA (Sep 24, 2019)

Thanks @ajohn, I'm slightly concerned with the fact that you seemed to have gone through the exact route I'm attempting but with far, *FAR*, more knowledge, hands on experimentation and dedication and you have set on the Niche. I guess we only differ on our approach to plastic, otherwise I'd get the Niche, with that in mind would you be so kind to share what I should be looking for to make sure I'm getting a Sage Smart Grinder Pro made after all the updates you mentioned?

Also, would it be possible to replace the plastic grind chamber for a metal part?

Thank you very much for your time and knowledge, I really appreciate it.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

hotCUPPA said:


> Thanks @ajohn, I'm slightly concerned with the fact that you seemed to have gone through the exact route I'm attempting but with far, *FAR*, more knowledge, hands on experimentation and dedication and you have set on the Niche. I guess we only differ on our approach to plastic, otherwise I'd get the Niche, with that in mind would you be so kind to share what I should be looking for to make sure I'm getting a Sage Smart Grinder Pro made after all the updates you mentioned?
> Also, would it be possible to replace the plastic grind chamber for a metal part?
> Thank you very much for your time and knowledge, I really appreciate it.


Apart from the polycarbonate lid, is there really that much plastic on a Niche?


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## hotCUPPA (Sep 24, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> hotCUPPA said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks @ajohn, I'm slightly concerned with the fact that you seemed to have gone through the exact route I'm attempting but with far, *FAR*, more knowledge, hands on experimentation and dedication and you have set on the Niche. I guess we only differ on our approach to plastic, otherwise I'd get the Niche, with that in mind would you be so kind to share what I should be looking for to make sure I'm getting a Sage Smart Grinder Pro made after all the updates you mentioned?
> ...


 I don't know but for 500 quid I would like to deserve the right of buying something with zero plastic as I'd already be buying an item that displeases my personal aesthetics.

The Sage Smart Grinder Pro is looking like a potential candidate, and as it retails for less than half of a new Niche, I am interested in investigating.

If it helps, I have ruled out completely the Niche.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Buy a Sage. They are obviously superior, half the price and if you close your eyes and cross your fingers, just as good


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## hotCUPPA (Sep 24, 2019)

dfk41 said:


> Buy a Sage. They are obviously superior, half the price and if you close your eyes and cross your fingers, just as good


 lol...wow, what a productive comment, thanks, that really helped me on my pursuit, couldn't do it without you, am off to the internets shops to get one, should I engrave df41 on the back or front?


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

There aren't that many grinders that do not have plastic hoppers and lids. The Niche has a metal hopper and plastic lid not a big deal in my book.

I also owned a SGP and comparison to the Niche is silly.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

lake_m said:


> There aren't that many grinders that do not have plastic hoppers and lids. The Niche has a metal hopper and plastic lid not a big deal in my book.
> I also owned a SGP and comparison to the Niche is silly.


Not to mention the SGP has a plastic case too. Maybe an EK43 with a Torr glass hopper would be suitable?


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## Endless River (Nov 12, 2014)

lake_m said:


> There aren't that many grinders that do not have plastic hoppers and lids. The Niche has a metal hopper and plastic lid not a big deal in my book.
> 
> I also owned a SGP and comparison to the Niche is silly.


 removed


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

hotCUPPA said:


> lol...wow, what a productive comment, thanks, that really helped me on my pursuit, couldn't do it without you, am off to the internets shops to get one, should I engrave df41 on the back or front?


 If you ask for help, then pin your ears back and listen, eco warrior.....Sage are grade one shite, aimed at numpties who either do not listen or convince themselves that for the price it suits their needs. The Niche is a proper, adult coffee grinder that punches well above its weight..........even factoring in the lid. I know which one I would rather be hit on the head with and it aint the Niche.....have you handled a Sage? Better put gloves on.....it has quite a bit of plastic


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## hotCUPPA (Sep 24, 2019)

dfk41 said:


> If you ask for help, then pin your ears back and listen, eco warrior.....Sage are grade one shite, aimed at numpties who either do not listen or convince themselves that for the price it suits their needs. The Niche is a proper, adult coffee grinder that punches well above its weight..........even factoring in the lid. I know which one I would rather be hit on the head with and it aint the Niche.....have you handled a Sage? Better put gloves on.....it has quite a bit of plastic


 No worries, let me see if I can say this in a way you won't misunderstand. Can you recommend a grinder that performs like the Niche but doesn't look like shit?


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

hotCUPPA said:


> No worries, let me see if I can say this in a way you won't misunderstand. Can you recommend a grinder that performs like the Niche but doesn't look like shit?


 Put a box over it with Kafatek written on it FFS


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

hotCUPPA said:


> No worries, let me see if I can say this in a way you won't misunderstand. Can you recommend a grinder that performs like the Niche but doesn't look like shit?


 There is not one I am afraid. The Niche was designed by the same team who did a lot of work for Kenwood, hence it fits with their in the average kitchen theme. The trouble is with it, it does perform as it was designed and tested with a sense of purpose. Due to its small footprint, you could keep it in the cupboard and only bring it out when needed. other than that, you are stuck. I have had a couple of Sage grinders and I am only being truthful by saying they are not very good. I know @Ajohn tinkers along with them, but I think it is fair to say they broke the mould with him. I would tell folks where you are and see if anyone local to you can let you have a play.

I have a Niche that I use exclusively for brewed and a Nuova Simonelli Clim Pro that I use for espresso based. Although you are starting ut on your journey, I doubt if the next grinder you buy will be with you foray length of time unless of course you get the right one now. the Niche will take you a lot further down the road than then Sage. There are names such as Monolith and Versalab which are better but 4 times the price


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

hotCUPPA said:


> No worries, let me see if I can say this in a way you won't misunderstand. Can you recommend a grinder that performs like the Niche but doesn't look like shit?


 If you think hard, it might look as if you have come here with an agenda...*I'm sure you have not* but you don't want to come across as a wanker in your first 10 posts do you? You have made it quite clear you don't like the Niche...now would be better if you gave a list of grinders you like the look of because it's only you who can decide whether you like the look of a grinder and then ask if any on that list meet your requirements. There are 8 or so people who also dislike the Niche and I am sure will support you well in your search for something better. They may even be able to sell you something more to your taste....just look for who is giving you positive responses to your posts.

You said



> Bearing in mind what's been quoted, which grinders are known for having the least amount of stale coffee mixed in from previous grinds? Which grinders would you recommend for someone looking for minimum waste? (Minimum purge, minimum retention, minimum exchange).This would be exclusively for espresso, 2 single very short shots a day.


 *Do a bit of work on the internet and shortlist the ones you like the look of.* Look at Lynn Weber, Kafatek, Versalab and other similar grinders...theres a video that for you I can't recommend highly enough. I think it's the sort of video you will appreciate and find useful.


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## hotCUPPA (Sep 24, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> lake_m said:
> 
> 
> > There aren't that many grinders that do not have plastic hoppers and lids. The Niche has a metal hopper and plastic lid not a big deal in my book.
> ...


 Thanks!!! I almost put an offer on the EK47 that went last week on that famous bidding site but with this hopper you have raised it to grails level. That's the one, case closed. I came in thinking 400 quid would do but you all have now convinced me to spend 5 times that. Off to read if the EK47 is suitable for only two espressos a day. Thank you @ashcroc for the idiosyncratic reaction.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

lake_m said:


> There aren't that many grinders that do not have plastic hoppers and lids. The Niche has a metal hopper and plastic lid not a big deal in my book.
> 
> I also owned a SGP and comparison to the Niche is silly.


 I've never said it's superior just that at it's price point rather difficult to beat.  I aim to compare something very similar to the SGP soon. The one in the Barista Express. That one and the one in the Oracle is a touch different. Grinds come out of the grind chamber in a different place.

I've never checked fully as except for one part I don't care but the Niche looks like it may use a /some metal coated plastic parts. Not the body or the grind chamber or the antistatic aid. The one part that could need replacing at some point is easy to fit and wont cost much.

Converting commercial to flat may have it's complications. When the hopper is on all I have come across compress the grinds to some extent. How they achieve that looks like it varies. Take the obstructions out of a mazzer mini, do the mod and use it for weighing in and I have only ever had fluffy grinds. Others may differ.

I'd say buy a Niche as many finish up weighing in but people have a budget and have to stop somewhere. On the other hand I ran the BE on the grinder timer for 6 months and kept a pretty consistent dose learning how to make tiny twitches of the timer knob on the way. In fact I tried similar with the SGP for a while and the digital timing annoyed me but could have got used to it. Some say ok it varies with all sorts of grinders on timers. Fine because within limits if they work to ratios and weigh out they seem to be happy. I have different aims. To to be frank I wouldn't touch an EK43 with a barge pole as I have seen too much junk coming out of them.

Personally I would prefer to buy used grinders as I know from buying new that they take a lot of beans to run in. On the other hand one bought like that appears to have never got that far. This seems to go on with all sorts relating to coffee. Buy and change even when some one may not really have a good idea how to use any gear let yet alone what they have decided to get rid of.

Another take on min retention flats is the width for the groove around the burrs that is swept out - that will relate to grinds retention and the compression as mentioned above. What's great for one way if using them hopper on may not be weighing out. That may help some one think about the merits of the video.

John

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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> There are 8 or so people who also dislike the Niche and I am sure will support you well in your search for something better. They may even be able to sell you something more to your taste....just look for who is giving you positive responses to your posts.


 I GUESS this is aimed at me, so I thought I should really respond, it is good that folk get a balanced perspective on stuff they are looking for, not everyone is going to love the look of the niche or even other popular machines recommended over and over again by some people on here.

I liked his post as it was funny and honest from his perspective, I also think the niche looks like a urinal however am mindful that a LOT of folk like it's looks and performance and have therefore chosen to buy and keep one, but I have never doubted its ability to produce ground coffee suitable for tasty espresso, if we all liked the same stuff then it would get rather tedious on here.

@hotCUPPAshould follow your advice and look at other manufacturers that meet their requirements and then ask for advice from those folk that have ACTUALLY used those grinders and can provide feedback pertinent to their wants.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

hotCUPPA said:


> Thanks!!! I almost put an offer on the EK47 that went last week on that famous bidding site but with this hopper you have raised it to grails level. That's the one, case closed. I came in thinking 400 quid would do but you all have now convinced me to spend 5 times that. Off to read if the EK47 is suitable for only two espressos a day. Thank you @ashcroc for the idiosyncratic reaction.
> <img alt="image.png.9aa11eef0e4321c14e749c63431d4d04.png" data-fileid="32561" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_10/image.png.9aa11eef0e4321c14e749c63431d4d04.png" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="image.png.da27def3b369221c845e82d07653e05e.png" data-fileid="32562" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_10/image.png.da27def3b369221c845e82d07653e05e.png" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="image.png.b8b214c020c910908537ed64139cb2cd.png" data-fileid="32563" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_10/image.png.b8b214c020c910908537ed64139cb2cd.png" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


I doubt you'll find anything with zero plastic within your budget especially with the capabilities you're after. Unfortunately some morals cost but good luck in your search.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

HG-1 - no plastic, and no electricity required.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

MildredM said:


> HG-1 - no plastic, and no electricity required.


There's been two go very cheap on eBay recently.

Just a quick word on this thread and in particular the Sage grinder pro...I've owned one and it performed admirably for a good year, I then sold it and got my money back. For anyone reading some of these posts your not a complete moron for considering it. It's cheap, even new when on offer at £140ish, you'll get a two year warranty from John Lewis and it will make perfectly adequate espresso. Yes the niche is a serious upgrade and you'll know when you feel at ease spending £500 that it's the right time to take the plunge on that or another grinder but please don't think you should spend ridiculous amounts before you're ready as you don't necessarily need to.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

MildredM said:


> HG-1 - no plastic, and no electricity required.


Yep, think hand grinder is the only viable option. Hausgrind could also fit the bill.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

ashcroc said:


> MildredM said:
> 
> 
> > HG-1 - no plastic, and no electricity required.
> ...


 Or retrofit a wug2 motor to the hg1 not that I have any experience about this whatsoever


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

coffeechap said:


> Or retrofit a wug2 motor to the hg1 not that I have any experience about this whatsoever


 The Wug2grinder are taking orders for the next batch . V2 looks quite snazzy too


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Nicknak said:


> The Wug2grinder are taking orders for the next batch . V2 looks quite snazzy too


 Get it, it is zero any of the terms on this thread so a genuine single doser that will last a lifetime.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

coffeechap said:


> Get it, it is zero any of the terms on this thread so a genuine single doser that will last a lifetime.


 Yes I am going to , love the HG-1 use it most of the time except for decaf .. will bide me over for nine months ?


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Nicknak said:


> Yes I am going to , love the HG-1 use it most of the time except for decaf .. will bide me over for nine months ?


 W.....w.....what the Wug?! Yes!!!!! Can you do a thread on it, the fitting of etc please


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

MildredM said:


> W.....w.....what the Wug?! Yes!!!!! Can you do a thread on it, the fitting of etc please


 I haven't ordered it yet , but will in the next few days .. Then it is scheduled for November delivery .. Their video makes it look really easy fitting .. But yes when I get it ?


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

KTD said:


> There's been two go very cheap on eBay recently.


 *looks*

...TWO HUNDRED? IN EDINBURGH? fml.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Nicknak said:


> I haven't ordered it yet , but will in the next few days .. Then it is scheduled for November delivery .. Their video makes it look really easy fitting .. But yes when I get it ?


 It is really easy to fit plus it would be nice to have another wugger on here


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