# Resetting espresso... advice please



## Learningtowalk (Apr 20, 2021)

Hello

Over the past year, like many others during lockdown, I've really upped my coffee "game". Certainly in terms of ££ spent if not anything else! Now I need some help, as I'm a bit lost and need help resetting. I have an idea of how to do this, but would like to hear thoughts from others.

This is my brief story from the past 9 months or so...

Up to about mid-2020 I bought a lot of Nespresso and I found it perfectly fine. However, and I can't remember how, I saw a vid/ad for the ROK GC manual Espresso machine and thought "that looks cool, let's buy that" - without any real idea what I was buying or hoping to do with it.

I already owned a Krupps grinder from a previous aborted pour-over phase, so I figured I was "set" in terms of at least making some basic espresso.

Obviously it was a complete disaster. And what followed was a massive amount of both coffee and espresso self-education on YouTube, reading forums etc. A lot of Hoffman videos, etc.

(In parallel to this, I've also got into v60 brewing which I've really enjoyed although, still far from "nailing" it. Anyway, putting this aside from now).

So what was clear was that I needed more equipment - a much better grinder and much better scales, at the very least. £££.

On the grinder, after reading a lot about needing to weight spend towards the grinder instead of the machine, I somehow convinced myself to buy the Niche grinder for £500. Which, frankly, was a ludicrous amount to spend on a grinder for a newb like me. But I figured it was a long-term investment and I'd never need to replace it (hopefully!).

So the Niche arrived in Jan. Since that point I've settled into a cycle of buying beans 1 week for espresso and the next week for v60. The local coffee shop to me stocks Square Mile Roaster beans so happy on that front.

But my problem is... I'm still completely lost with espresso making on the ROK. It's definitely user error, not blaming the machine at all. But I think I'm just dealing with too many variables and struggling with the usual sour/bitter confusion, etc. My ability to pull a tasty shot is probably about 1 in 20. Drinkable probably more often than not, but far from perfect.

With the ROK I have to worry about: water temp, machine pre-heat (thermal management) and pressure of pulling - on top of the other usual espresso variables: grind, tamping, etc. And, to be honest, it's a complete faff to use.

So I think I need to go waaaay back on the espresso machine. Find a machine to help me reduce the variables, and trying not to spend too much on it given I know the machine will be limited and that one day, when I have a degree of mastery, go for a more expensive 10 year plus machine.

So my proposal is to buy a 2nd hand Sage Bambino Plus (~£200). I would use it exclusively with a non-pressurised basket (and remove the additional plastic from the portafilter).

My thinking is that since the Bambino does temp control well (with a PID) that's another thing I don't have to worry about as I'm learning. That's why I'm favouring it instead of, say, a 2nd hand Gaggia Classic or a Rancillo Silva.

What are people's thoughts on this? Is the Bambino a "good enough" place to start, or is it too fundamentally compromised a machine?

The Hoffman vid on espresso machines under £500 was helpful, but clearly not that glowing on the Bambino from a pure espresso making ability.

Thanks in advance!


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## Learningtowalk (Apr 20, 2021)

This was silly long. Sorry. Have posted a much shorter version here:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/59738-niche-zero-with-sage-bambino-plus/?do=embed

If it's possible to delete this post, I will do so.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

This is an awful story to read, you have had the Niche for 3 months and are still not enjoying your coffee.

Why are you sure the Bambino is a solution (I'm not saying it isn't, just I don't see how it is a magic bullet in any way), you have all the same variables as you do with the ROK?

The fact that you are also struggling with/shelving V60 is also concerning.

You can quickly pre heat the ROK, about 3 flushes does it, then brew. You might well need to brew at longer ratios then commonly seen, to lift extraction.

Can you tell us your parameters for your shots & V60 brews? (Grind setting, brew water & or output, timings)

Buying different things isn't helping you to learn to make coffee. You have a capable grinder, you have a couple of different brewers...focus on one until you get ball-park results.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Serious Deja Vu agian. Was this really posted 6 hours ago or is this a glitch?


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## Learningtowalk (Apr 20, 2021)

MWJB said:


> This is an awful story to read, you have had the Niche for 3 months and are still not enjoying your coffee.
> 
> Why are you sure the Bambino is a solution (I'm not saying it isn't, just I don't see how it is a magic bullet in any way), you have all the same variables as you do with the ROK?
> 
> ...


 Hey - thanks for replying. And yes, it was silly long. I was typing on my phone and I hadn't realised how much of an epic it was. You can see in my first reply, I apologised for this and did a shorter version as a new topic.

On the ROK I do two flushes, and then keep the portafilter in a cup of boiling water for around 30 secs. Dose 17g in, light-ish tamp (although this is a whole science I haven't got to drips with), pulling within 30 secs aiming for 2:1 out. So I think I'm broadly on track there.

My point is - the ROK is brilliant, but a bit of a faff for someone relatively new. And I usually find I can't pull back to back consistent shots using the same variables (grind, dosing, tamping, shot time) - so I'm guessing it's to do with thermal management on the ROK. As such, I find dialling-in to be very hard especially as a novice from a tasting perspective as well.

So what I was proposing is to get a "cheap" 2nd hand machine to learn the craft a little better. My expectation is that the Bambino might be a limited espresso machine - but at least it might be consistent and easier to use... that's what I'm getting at, and asking opinion on.

N.B. To be clear - I haven't shelved the v60 at all, I just brewed one just now in fact and really enjoying it. Just searching for perfection on that as well, and just haven't hit it yet - but certainly getting consistently drinkable brews. I'm brewing for 2 on the v60, 30g in, 500ml of water. Doing a 40-45 second bloom with swirl, then all water in before 1:45, stir and swirl at end. Generally draining within 3:30 and 4:00... although I've read to not focus too much on draining time and focus on taste, which I am trying to do.

I currently rotate doing v60 one week and espresso the next week.


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## Learningtowalk (Apr 20, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> Serious Deja Vu agian. Was this really posted 6 hours ago or is this a glitch?


 yes, sorry. I posted a shorter version when I realised this was too long. See first reply to this.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Learningtowalk said:


> And yes, it was silly long. I was typing on my phone and I hadn't realised how much of an epic it was


 Sorry, I meant the amount of time you invested v results.



Learningtowalk said:


> On the ROK I do two flushes, and then keep the portafilter in a cup of boiling water for around 30 secs. Dose 17g in, light-ish tamp (although this is a whole science I haven't got to drips with), pulling within 30 secs aiming for 2:1 out. So I think I'm broadly on track there.


 I never used that amount of coffee in mine, I was usually around 12-14g. I never got good results at 1:2. If your coffee is an espresso blend try more like 1:3.5, if a light filter roast try 1:5. Don't worry too much about the time, focus more on the grind setting & its affect on flavour balance. I also used to use an Aeropress filter in the bottom of the basket for a cleaner cup. Start about 30 on the Niche & report back.

You shouldn't need to change grind setting between back to back shots.

I'd recommend pretty much the same for the Bambino, except to use a dose of 17-18g in a non-pressurised double.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Learningtowalk said:


> My expectation is that the Bambino might be a limited espresso machine - but at least it might be consistent and easier to use... that's what I'm getting at, and asking opinion on.


  I'll try my best to answer. The Hoffman review isn't bad but he doesn't appreciate the cost involved in producing the style of cases that Sage use. It's why they don't change them very often. As plastic he says cheap. 1/2 the story. The tooling is expensive. They also use individual press tools for parts and panels. Yet more cost compared with folding and punching holes in stuff. The features they offer on machines are cheap once a microcontroller goes in and some of those cost peanuts. The software used has been around for ages. They mod it now and again. He doesn't mention that it has a 3 way. He doesn't mention PID but does mention temperature problems on others. He doesn't mention that it can use rather high brew pressures. The grinder setting and dose control that really on them until the OPV opens. A man on here that has used several machines reckons that the milk frothing is good. Lots do. He's wondering about light roasts. The problem in this area is that dose, grinder setting and brew time alter taste. Machines vary so trying to compare keeping all the same isn't all that sensible really. A better idea really is to vary things and see what happens.

The main thing with consistency relates to handling the grinds. It will be on the ROK as well and I would be inclined to say that light tamping on it or a Bambino isn't a good idea when weighing in with a grinder. The Bambino will always deliver water at a rate dependent on the grinds etc. ROK, need to time the lever movements.

The main problem with thermo machines as against boilers is scale. It causes grief on all eventually but it can be said that thermo need more looking after for a trouble free life. People who live in hard water areas are likely to have problems with both. The Sage filters will help with that sort of thing but will need changing when they should be. The machine also tells people when to descale also back flush. Having used a BE I would back flush more often. The Bambino appears to be a BE less the grinder.

 So yes the Bambino will make life easier but don't underestimate the learning curve on just tuning a bean in to suite taste and getting consistency. That just relates to grinds. The machine will look after the rest.

Better baskets. Well at last I have bought a VST so can compare with Sage and as it happens Fracino.  No comment. As I see it baskets are a problem on the small size Sage machines but the majority of people on all machines are perfectly happy with a single which they never use, sad and a double. I think that the Bambino comes with standard and dual wall baskets these days. Not sure. Suitable baskets have now appeared on Amazon and Ebay as well now.


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## Learningtowalk (Apr 20, 2021)

MWJB said:


> I never used that amount of coffee in mine, I was usually around 12-14g. I never got good results at 1:2. If your coffee is an espresso blend try more like 1:3.5, if a light filter roast try 1:5. Don't worry too much about the time, focus more on the grind setting & its affect on flavour balance. I also used to use an Aeropress filter in the bottom of the basket for a cleaner cup. Start about 30 on the Niche & report back.


 So had time to pull two shots this afternoon between calls. N.B. I don't have any aeropress filters.

First one, dosed 14g at 30 on the Niche and pulled 1:3.5 as suggested... it gushed right out, probably under 12 secs for full pull. As expected, v sour, just horrible.

Second one, same again but at 25 on the Niche. This one pulled at around 20 secs for 1:3.5... I mean drinkable-ish, less sour than before but still there. I think it lacked 'body' if I'm using the term correctly - just felt weak. As a layman, just feels like it's underdosed and still too coarse.

My default is at around 17g in, on a Niche setting of around 23 and less. So was surprised you suggested such a course starting point.

Thanks nonetheless for your input! Appreciate the help.


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## Learningtowalk (Apr 20, 2021)

ajohn said:


> So yes the Bambino will make life easier but don't underestimate the learning curve on just tuning a bean in to suite taste and getting consistency. That just relates to grinds. The machine will look after the rest.


 Thanks - this sums up my thinking from before. I wanted to reduce the variables so I can focus on one or two whilst dialling-in (such as grind size and tamp pressure), and the Bambino seemed to offer that for a decent 2nd hand price.

And in general, thanks for your in-depth response much appreciated. Given you seem to have some background on the Sage machines - can you help me understand one further thing...

Is the Bambino a 9 bar or 15 bar machine? I've read inconsistent reviews suggesting both. And I've just come across this - https://www.fastcompany.com/90570042/forget-starbucks-brevilles-small-cheap-espresso-maker-is-all-you-need - where it says: "15-bar pressure pump and accompanying release valve, which ultimately allows the Bambino to produce 9-bar extraction" which implies it is 15 bar, but runs at 9 bar?!

My intention is use the Bambino with a double non-pressurised basket.

But I can see why it might run 15 bar for people wanting an easy life and use pressurised baskets...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Learningtowalk said:


> First one, dosed 14g at 30 on the Niche and pulled 1:3.5 as suggested... it gushed right out, probably under 12 secs for full pull. As expected, v sour, just horrible.
> 
> Second one, same again but at 25 on the Niche. This one pulled at around 20 secs for 1:3.5... I mean drinkable-ish, less sour than before but still there. I think it lacked 'body' if I'm using the term correctly - just felt weak. As a layman, just feels like it's underdosed and still too coarse.


 This isn't the end is it, you're not throwing in the towel after 2 shots after months? 

"Less sour than before" is good isn't it?

OK so, go finer, try 20 on Niche.

You can't taste dose, a 1:3.5 shot will be the same strength with a 14g dose, as with a 17g dose, the drink will just be a tiny bit smaller with 14g. But if you think 17g has something going for it, give it a go (I just never got good results with it).


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Learningtowalk said:


> I wanted to reduce the variables so I can focus on one or two whilst dialling-in (such as grind size and tamp pressure)


 Tamp pressure is not variable that you should use to tune shots, do it the same every time, concentrate on being flat & level.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Learningtowalk said:


> Is the Bambino a 9 bar or 15 bar machine? I've read inconsistent reviews suggesting both. And I've just come across this - https://www.fastcompany.com/90570042/forget-starbucks-brevilles-small-cheap-espresso-maker-is-all-you-need - where it says: "15-bar pressure pump and accompanying release valve, which ultimately allows the Bambino to produce 9-bar extraction" which implies it is 15 bar, but runs at 9 bar?!


 Most entry level espresso machines have a 15bar vibe pump. If they had a 9bar pump and you wanted to pull shots at 9bar, you wouldn't get a drink.

If the coffee is flowing, you are at less than 15bar.

Release valve allows pressure to be relieved above 9 bar, but anytime you have flow & the valve isn't kicking in, you are at less than 9bar.

Don't worry too much about pressure.


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

MWJB said:


> You can't taste dose, a 1:3.5 shot will be the same strength with a 14g dose, as with a 17g dose, the drink will just be a tiny bit smaller with 14g.


 That's a nice maxim. Got any more, please?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

-Mac said:


> That's a nice maxim. Got any more, please?


 I think I'll quit while I'm ahead & just lap up the admiration


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## Learningtowalk (Apr 20, 2021)

MWJB said:


> This isn't the end is it, you're not throwing in the towel after 2 shots after months? 🙂


 Sorry, I think you've been misunderstanding me... I've been using the ROK solidly every other week (as in every day, every other week) since January... The ultimate point to this is that I'm finding it hard to dial-in on a manual machine, with the added uncertainty of the thermal management on back to back shots making it particularly hard. Which is why I asked if it might be better for me to go "back to basics" with a semi-auto machine.

My trial and error to date on the ROK got me to 17g in at 1:2ish, using the grind setting at the 18 to 22 range.... with generally OK shots, infrequently really great and sometimes overwhelming bitter/sour.



MWJB said:


> You can't taste dose,


 So... I thought you could taste dose, specifically under-dosing can produce sour shots? I'm so confused! I seem to have read that a lot online...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Learningtowalk said:


> Sorry, I think you've been misunderstanding me... I've been using the ROK solidly every other week (as in every day, every other week) since January... The ultimate point to this is that I'm finding it hard to dial-in on a manual machine, with the added uncertainty of the thermal management on back to back shots making it particularly hard. Which is why I asked if it might be better for me to go "back to basics" with a semi-auto machine.
> 
> My trial and error to date on the ROK got me to 17g in at 1:2ish, using the grind setting at the 18 to 22 range.... with generally OK shots, infrequently really great and sometimes overwhelming bitter/sour.
> 
> So... I thought you could taste dose, specifically under-dosing can produce sour shots? I'm so confused! I seem to have read that a lot online...


 No I'm not misunderstanding. You have the ROK, you may as well see if you can improve your coffee in the meantime.

Infrequent really great shots are the norm, they need to be really great coffee & well made.

You said earlier you couldn't detect what the fault was, by going weaker & starting too coarse, this will make the malfunction clearer. If you don't have a problem, why start the thread (I don't think your problem is thermal management, or if it is for back to back shots why you think the Bambino will be much better).

You can extract 12g of coffee to the normal range, with as much consistency as V60, so it's not under-dosed. Yes, you can detect malfunctions, but you can't taste dose in well extracted shots at the same extraction & ratio. Bigger doses might have heavier mouthfeel, but that's more down to the non-dissolved solids than the flavour carrying components.

Anyhow, you seem to know what you want & I feel I'm interfering, so I'll leave you to it.


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## Learningtowalk (Apr 20, 2021)

MWJB said:


> No I'm not misunderstanding. You have the ROK, you may as well see if you can improve your coffee in the meantime.
> 
> Infrequent really great shots are the norm, they need to be really great coffee & well made.
> 
> ...


 I think my problem is also to do with misunderstanding what I'm tasting, as I said in the original post - sour/bitter confusion for one thing. Actually nailing down in my mind what genuinely "tastes" good. So I wanted a more basic approach so as to help tune, broadly, what I like and dislike... hope that makes sense. The thing that *I think* makes it difficult with the ROK is, if I'm trying to dial-in using back to back shots, and I'm only adjusting grind size... I'm also wondering if the retained heat in the ROK is the same for each of those back to back shots. And, as I've said, it's a bit of a faff, and sometimes messy.

Going back to the Bambino - my newb assumption is that having that PID would keep heat consistent. And it was a cheap entry point for a machine with constant temp.

But you've been a great deal of help and I really appreciate all your effort in replying to all these messages! thank you.


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## Bialettibarista (Jun 13, 2021)

I went through the same issues as you and can only tell you what my solution was. A Bottomless portafilter and less pressure! Your inconstancy is very likely channeling. A bottomless will help you identify channeling.With bathroom scale under the Rok I use between 12 and 16 kg of downward pressure. Too much pressure= channeling. I just about have up on the Rok too and it took a few weeks to understand the Rok but now it's hard for me to get a bad espresso and I am no longer lusting after a new machine.


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## Learningtowalk (Apr 20, 2021)

Bialettibarista said:


> I went through the same issues as you and can only tell you what my solution was. A Bottomless portafilter and less pressure! Your inconstancy is very likely channeling. A bottomless will help you identify channeling.With bathroom scale under the Rok I use between 12 and 16 kg of downward pressure. Too much pressure= channeling. I just about have up on the Rok too and it took a few weeks to understand the Rok but now it's hard for me to get a bad espresso and I am no longer lusting after a new machine.


 Hello! Thanks for the reply&#8230; a couple of months down the line, and I actually picked up a 2002 Gaggia Classic second hand for a reasonable price in early May and really enjoying it for home use.

However, I am still using the ROK on and off - in fact I'm using it this week as I'm lucky enough to be away on holiday. It's proving to be a great travel espresso maker. I agree with you on the bottomless portafilter - that made things easier to figure out, and I generally now get a decent pull without any obvious channelling.

The other tip I got elsewhere was to pull longer, so I'm generally going 1:2.5 ratio.

One thing that confuses me a little - and maybe you can help - I generally pre-infuse for about 5-8 seconds on the ROK before pulling. Should I be counting those 5-8 seconds in the total pull time of ~30 seconds?

As mentioned I'm using it on holiday this week. Unfortunately I don't have a travel grinder&#8230; so grounded up 250g of beans before we left&#8230; and did it in a rush so it wasn't well dialled-in at all&#8230; so have been experiencing longer than expected shot times this week. But not the end of the world as have generally taken it with frothed hot milk.


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