# Getting to the end of my tether, please help (slow/no pull)



## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

Hello there. This is my first post after much browsing and reading. Hope you don't mind getting straight down to my problem?

I bought a used Gaggia Classic about 18 months ago and have always had issues despite the previous owner having none whatsoever. The main issue is, often I will get nothing from the machine but a few drips of coffee. Every now and then I will get a good pull in around 35-40 seconds which tastes fine so I keep all my grind settings identical and then the next time, nothing or just a few drips. This happened again yesterday.

Spoke to a very helpful chap in my local shop, bought some Deerhunter beans (fresh) left my grinder on it's previous setting but this time did as he said and used 18g like they do in the shop. In 35 seconds, I had a delicious coffee. Nailed it, I thought. Next time, same settings, same tamping, nothing. Tried again, nothing. Left it until today again again, nothing but a few drips.

SO I have now cleaned, backflushed, descaled, tested flow rate 300ml in 30 seconds, cleaned behind the shower screen and the thingy behind that and low and behold, exactly the same. Tried different grind settings on the Smart Grinder Pro, different weights of coffee from 14-18g and very inconsistent. At anything from 16-18g, the puck seems to be hitting the screw in the centre of the screen which is why I tried a little less.

The last settings I tried was 14g at a 22 setting on the grinder and managed just short of a double shot in 40 seconds but it didn't taste great.

I would LOVE some advice from you experienced folks and look forward to reading any replies.

Many thanks.

I welcome any advice anyone can give with this because I just want to be able to pull consistent coffee.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

You need to weight your output.

Ie what is currently your "double shot " .

A tasty shot isn't 60ml or 2 FL ounces for everyone or every bean . Weighing the espresso out will help you set a recipe a a coffee to water ratio that helps

Check the barista skills thread and the sticky on weighing and brew ratios .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

14g in that bakset with that grinder will i suspect be too small a dose too


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

right, you need to do the flooring, which will not cure but help to understand. You first of all need to learn to repeat the shot, so you are quite right, keep everything the same. Use the same bean, same grind setting, same tamp level. if those are constant, then the shot produced ought to be the same each time. Vary any one of those and the results will differ. From memory, the standard classic basket works well around 18 grams. The grinder you have is sufficient but no more. try to alter the grind settings my no more than a single digit and remember or record the differences. If needed, then get a big bag of coffee and play with the settings making small incremental changes to the grind if needed. But, remember, espresso is extracting, so start off with a 2:1. This means if you put 18 in take 36 out so you need to weigh. You then have the option of varying the ratio to adjust to your taste


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## Graham J (Jul 27, 2018)

All these responses are guesswork, but here's my guess FWIW. I rebuild and upgrade Gaggia Classics (and a few Baby's) regularly. One of the most common faults on a machine more than a couple of years old is partial blockage of the restrictor jet, which is part of the flow path out of the boiler. The jet nozzle is around 0.8mm diameter and the flow passages around it are all small bore drillings. This jet has a rubber seal sitting on it until the pump has pressurised the boiler. So its a perfect location for limescale to build and get lodged. Small pieces of scale can cause the problem you are describing.

You'll need some mechanical skills and method to safely remove the stainless steel outlet casting, it needs really thorough cleaning. If that is the problem, the boiler needs opening also to descale and remove any more loose scale and particles from the brewed passages, that could cause a return of the same problem.

There are one or two other defects in the pump and the flow/return loop that can cause these symptoms, but this is a good place to get right, on a well-used machine.


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## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

Have you discounted there being a mechanical fault? I'm not saying it is, but it could be a faulty pump, where it can push the volume with little resistance but struggles with the resistance provided by the coffee puck, or something stopping the three-way valve from closing properly.


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> You need to weight your output.
> 
> Ie what is currently your "double shot " .
> 
> ...





Mrboots2u said:


> 14g in that bakset with that grinder will i suspect be too small a dose too


Thank you for your response. I will check the thread you mention.











dfk41 said:


> right, you need to do the flooring, which will not cure but help to understand. You first of all need to learn to repeat the shot, so you are quite right, keep everything the same. Use the same bean, same grind setting, same tamp level. if those are constant, then the shot produced ought to be the same each time. Vary any one of those and the results will differ. From memory, the standard classic basket works well around 18 grams. The grinder you have is sufficient but no more. try to alter the grind settings my no more than a single digit and remember or record the differences. If needed, then get a big bag of coffee and play with the settings making small incremental changes to the grind if needed. But, remember, espresso is extracting, so start off with a 2:1. This means if you put 18 in take 36 out so you need to weigh. You then have the option of varying the ratio to adjust to your taste


Thank you. Yes, I did the same thing between shots which is why it's so frustrating. The first one was just right, the one after was barely any output at all. We are talking a few ml at most. It's a shame to hear that about the grinder being only sufficient. I don't want coffee shop level by the way, but for the price I would have expected a little more than that I guess. Plus it was a gift last year.









When I use 18g, which is what my local coffee shop uses for that beans, I have had a really good extraction as I said but it also hits the screw in the shower head which I have read on here is too full. See why I get confused?



Graham J said:


> All these responses are guesswork, but here's my guess FWIW. I rebuild and upgrade Gaggia Classics (and a few Baby's) regularly. One of the most common faults on a machine more than a couple of years old is partial blockage of the restrictor jet, which is part of the flow path out of the boiler. The jet nozzle is around 0.8mm diameter and the flow passages around it are all small bore drillings. This jet has a rubber seal sitting on it until the pump has pressurised the boiler. So its a perfect location for limescale to build and get lodged. Small pieces of scale can cause the problem you are describing.
> 
> You'll need some mechanical skills and method to safely remove the stainless steel outlet casting, it needs really thorough cleaning. If that is the problem, the boiler needs opening also to descale and remove any more loose scale and particles from the brewed passages, that could cause a return of the same problem.
> 
> There are one or two other defects in the pump and the flow/return loop that can cause these symptoms, but this is a good place to get right, on a well-used machine.


Thank you. I am quite handy and practical with such things so taking bits apart to check shouldn't be a problem. I will look into what you describe if I can figure it out.



AndyDClements said:


> Have you discounted there being a mechanical fault? I'm not saying it is, but it could be a faulty pump, where it can push the volume with little resistance but struggles with the resistance provided by the coffee puck, or something stopping the three-way valve from closing properly.


Nope, I haven't discounted that at all. I figured after doing all the cleaning, descaling, back flushing and keeping my grind etc the same, this would be the next port of call.









I have read what you describe before. The output is fine with just the pump running, but add the strain of a full basket and it may slow.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Downhill Specialist said:


> Thank you for your response. I will check the thread you mention.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The standard gaggia double basket is smaller than 18g. It's alot coser to 14g. The 58mm portafilter is the same size as commercial e61 groupheads so there are lots of baskets available. I use an 18g VST myself most of the time.

Your grinder is going to have a bit of retention between grinds so it can take 1 or 2 shots after changing the grinds to settle into it's setting. Maybe that's why it was ok 1 shot then too fine the next.


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

Ah cool, thank you.

Little update. The whole boiler assembly is out of the machine and on the worktop. Probably should have labelled the wires. Hope there's a diagram on line somewhere. Ha!


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## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

I would also check the three way valve very carefully for loose scale (pinhead grains can be enough) as this could stop the flow. Normally when it happened to me it was a constant rather than intermittent fault but a piece of scale big enough to block the outlet but not get into it could cause an intermittent issue. Photo of mine when I took the boiler out below. I write on all the connectors with permanent marker to show what goes where. Makes it much easier connecting it all back up again


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

To the OP, one of the key bits of information you can give to get a good diagnostic is the age of the machine....


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

Thank you but I don't actually know seeing I bought it used.

Some good news though, I managed to wire the thing up correctly again. Surprisingly, the boiler internally was pretty clean!

Reassembled and using an online wiring diagram, managed to not blow it up. Pulled two cups since.

The first was 17g in 38g out so not far off the mark (that was 40 seconds though so perhaps I am getting enough in 30-35 seconds.

The second was 16g in and 40 out with a slightly coarser grind so with a little tweaking, I think I will get to where I need to be. Fingers crossed. Only cost me almost a full 250g of beans. Ha.

Experiments continue tomorrow. Thank you for all your help so far.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Downhill Specialist said:


> Thank you but I don't actually know seeing I bought it used.
> 
> Some good news though, I managed to wire the thing up correctly again. Surprisingly, the boiler internally was pretty clean!
> 
> ...


There should be a label on the underside of the machine that'll give you the age.

Glad you got it goinf again. It can be a bit tricky following the wiring diagram especially at the switches.


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

ashcroc said:


> There should be a label on the underside of the machine that'll give you the age.
> 
> Glad you got it goinf again. It can be a bit tricky following the wiring diagram especially at the switches.


Ah cool, I will check the bottom of the machine and see.

Ha, it was intimidating at first with wires everywhere but it was quite logical following the diagram.

Just brewed again this morning. 15g in, 34 out in 35 seconds. Getting more consistent. Will adjust the grind a little finer tomorrow to see what happens.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Downhill Specialist said:


> Thank you but I don't actually know seeing I bought it used.
> 
> Some good news though, I managed to wire the thing up correctly again. Surprisingly, the boiler internally was pretty clean!
> 
> ...


Hi , dont force yourself into a narrow window of 1:2 in x time frame

How did the shots taste that you made ?


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> Hi , dont force yourself into a narrow window of 1:2 in x time frame
> 
> How did the shots taste that you made ?


Yes, I won't be so precise in future. Just being fairly consistent is nice at the moment. The last one yesterday and today were very nice from what I could tell. Have a little bit of a cold hanging oat the moment but not a million miles away from what I would expect.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Downhill Specialist said:


> Yes, I won't be so precise in future. Just being fairly consistent is nice at the moment. The last one yesterday and today were very nice from what I could tell. Have a little bit of a cold hanging oat the moment but not a million miles away from what I would expect.


why do you keep changing your dose?


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## Graham J (Jul 27, 2018)

Seems that about four other people since my post have recommended checking and cleaning the three-way valve - so at least you can see its a well-known issue! Don't forget to get a seal kit and also clean the boiler, if you do find partial blockage in the passageways of this little casting.

A good diagnostic that I use is to run the machine with this pressure measuring portafilter attached. See photo. It uses 4mm bore tubing and has an adjustable needle valve in he line. This is set to bleed 1ml/second and I run a 30 second shot with it and look for an even brew pressure, without any surges. With this set up you are reading actual brew pressure, not blind basket pressure, so 9bar is a useful set point. You can build this yourself for around £30-£40, from eBay parts and it has ongoing usefulness.


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

When you say you bought some fresh beans from your local shop, left the grinder set the same, and pulled a good shot.. The chances are that if it was right for these beans you hadn't got it set right for the previous ones as all beans will need a bit different grind setting and some a lot different.

id stick with one bean type, buy a kilo minimum and stick with them, and dose the same amount every time.

If someone lives close by perhaps they would be willing to have a look?


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

MWJB said:


> why do you keep changing your dose?


Just going to try some fine adjustments to learn what works and what doesn't, that's all.



Graham J said:


> Seems that about four other people since my post have recommended checking and cleaning the three-way valve - so at least you can see its a well-known issue! Don't forget to get a seal kit and also clean the boiler, if you do find partial blockage in the passageways of this little casting.
> 
> A good diagnostic that I use is to run the machine with this pressure measuring portafilter attached. See photo. It uses 4mm bore tubing and has an adjustable needle valve in he line. This is set to bleed 1ml/second and I run a 30 second shot with it and look for an even brew pressure, without any surges. With this set up you are reading actual brew pressure, not blind basket pressure, so 9bar is a useful set point. You can build this yourself for around £30-£40, from eBay parts and it has ongoing usefulness.
> 
> View attachment 38117


Thanks for that info!











Rom said:


> When you say you bought some fresh beans from your local shop, left the grinder set the same, and pulled a good shot.. The chances are that if it was right for these beans you hadn't got it set right for the previous ones as all beans will need a bit different grind setting and some a lot different.
> 
> id stick with one bean type, buy a kilo minimum and stick with them, and dose the same amount every time.
> 
> If someone lives close by perhaps they would be willing to have a look?


Yeah I know, hadn't used it for a while. I am doing what you say and going to stick with the ones I just bought for the foreseeable.

I also bought some for my Aeropress which I use daily at work with a hand grinder and that's lovely.









I think it seems to be pretty consistent now with pulling similar shots so will just continue to try and experiment.


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## Stubhoy (Jun 18, 2018)

This might sound daft but I was having problems with my gaggia, first shot always fine second one hardly anything would come out. I found that because I was washing the portafilter after the first shot when the next grind went in it must have mixed with any left over water from the washing and caused it too block because when I cleaned it then dried with kitchen roll the second shot came out perfect. Still new to this and don't know what proper procedure is with you professionals but I know don't wash the port filter between shots and everything's fine.


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

Stubhoy said:


> This might sound daft but I was having problems with my gaggia, first shot always fine second one hardly anything would come out. I found that because I was washing the portafilter after the first shot when the next grind went in it must have mixed with any left over water from the washing and caused it too block because when I cleaned it then dried with kitchen roll the second shot came out perfect. Still new to this and don't know what proper procedure is with you professionals but I know don't wash the port filter between shots and everything's fine.


Its ok to wash pf just make sure its perfectly dry before adding the ground coffee as you have found out

My procedure is, not that I'm a pro, is to make a shot, empty pf basket, wash it, dry it, clean inside group head with water before replacing pf to warm ready for the next shot.

Hope that helps


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

Heres how the pros do it.....






Nice video @DavecUK keep them coming


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

Downhill Specialist said:


> Hello there. This is my first post after much browsing and reading. Hope you don't mind getting straight down to my problem?
> 
> I bought a used Gaggia Classic about 18 months ago and have always had issues despite the previous owner having none whatsoever. The main issue is, often I will get nothing from the machine but a few drips of coffee. Every now and then I will get a good pull in around 35-40 seconds which tastes fine so I keep all my grind settings identical and then the next time, nothing or just a few drips. This happened again yesterday.
> 
> ...


I used to get this by putting too much grind into the PF then tamping it to hard. It would clog the machine.

Even now sometimes I only get a small trickle out of just one of the PF outlets and have to run it for 5 mins to get a cup... it just seems to be a thing with these machines, I figure they are low output with a small boiler.


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

Just want to come back to this as it has been a while and I didn't acknowledge the last few responses.

After having a few good cups, I am back to square one. Same beans, same grind, then boom, nothing but a few drips from the PF.

Wasting so many beans trying to get a decent coffee from this machine, it surely shouldn't be this hard. Cleaned everything several times and the water flow rate seems good with no PF/basket (600ml/min) so I have no idea where I am going wrong and I am on the verge of throwing the thing out!

Anyone want a free Gaggia classic?


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Downhill Specialist said:


> Just want to come back to this as it has been a while and I didn't acknowledge the last few responses.
> 
> After having a few good cups, I am back to square one. Same beans, same grind, then boom, nothing but a few drips from the PF.
> 
> ...


 Where are you located? Perhaps there's someone local to you who could pop round and help...???


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sense check , you are weighing dose ( to 0.1g ) weighing output , temp surfing the same ? Machine heated up the same amount of time.


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

MrShades said:


> Where are you located? Perhaps there's someone local to you who could pop round and help...???


 I am in Wigan. 



Mrboots2u said:


> Sense check , you are weighing dose ( to 0.1g ) weighing output , temp surfing the same ? Machine heated up the same amount of time.


 I wasn't that accurately no, however yesterday I got in from work and tried to start a fresh.

Weighed 15g of grounds, pulled 30g of coffee in 43 seconds. Tasted really nice.

Tried again this morning changing nothing and got nothing from the machine at all. So frustrating.

Instead I made a French Press of some Square Mile stuff I had and it was delicious! Might give up on the espresso based and just go filter and French Press from now on, adding V60. I never have any problems with those!


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Is it really 15.0g - are you using scales with 0.1g resolution? If not, get on eBay and spend a fiver and buy some.

There's a big difference between having 14.6g and 15.4g - both of which would be 15g on 1g resolution scales

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

MrShades said:


> Is it really 15.0g - are you using scales with 0.1g resolution? If not, get on eBay and spend a fiver and buy some.
> 
> There's a big difference between having 14.6g and 15.4g - both of which would be 15g on 1g resolution scales
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I hear ya. Will pick some up soon before I get my next bag of beans.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Downhill Specialist said:


> I am in Wigan.
> 
> I wasn't that accurately no, however yesterday I got in from work and tried to start a fresh.
> 
> ...


 a variable somewhere is changing, to go from 43 seconds to nothing at all.

is it really nothing at all? nothing comes out in 30 seconds?


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

Could be an idea to try a push style tamper, rules out the possibility that you're tamping with variable force shot to shot. 

I've got a knock off like the one below.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Omgogo-Adjustable-Distributor-Leveler-Espresso/dp/B07H44646X/ref=pd_sbs_79_20?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07H44646X&pd_rd_r=24ea5133-d2e0-4a84-a73e-07828fa8c0fe&pd_rd_w=mess5&pd_rd_wg=l99H3&pf_rd_p=cc188cba-1892-42b3-956f-6c67d0ab7a00&pf_rd_r=G1RX30BVFNHPAJ3SWHFK&psc=1&refRID=G1RX30BVFNHPAJ3SWHFK


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Jon_Foster said:


> Could be an idea to try a push style tamper, rules out the possibility that you're tamping with variable force shot to shot.
> 
> I've got a knock off like the one below.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Omgogo-Adjustable-Distributor-Leveler-Espresso/dp/B07H44646X/ref=pd_sbs_79_20?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07H44646X&pd_rd_r=24ea5133-d2e0-4a84-a73e-07828fa8c0fe&pd_rd_w=mess5&pd_rd_wg=l99H3&pf_rd_p=cc188cba-1892-42b3-956f-6c67d0ab7a00&pf_rd_r=G1RX30BVFNHPAJ3SWHFK&psc=1&refRID=G1RX30BVFNHPAJ3SWHFK


I'm currently using the same but in a 58.5mm variant. It certainly makes it easier to hit the same height & pressure (for a given bean) each time.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Jon_Foster said:


> Could be an idea to try a push style tamper, rules out the possibility that you're tamping with variable force shot to shot.
> 
> I've got a knock off like the one below.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Omgogo-Adjustable-Distributor-Leveler-Espresso/dp/B07H44646X/ref=pd_sbs_79_20?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07H44646X&pd_rd_r=24ea5133-d2e0-4a84-a73e-07828fa8c0fe&pd_rd_w=mess5&pd_rd_wg=l99H3&pf_rd_p=cc188cba-1892-42b3-956f-6c67d0ab7a00&pf_rd_r=G1RX30BVFNHPAJ3SWHFK&psc=1&refRID=G1RX30BVFNHPAJ3SWHFK


 i suspect there is more than tamping going on here. to go from a decent shot to nothing coming out ...


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> i suspect there is more than tamping going on here. to go from a decent shot to nothing coming out ...


Agree but it removes a variable assuming the same bean & dose is used.
I'm wondering which grinder is being used & if there was some transference from dialing in with the good shot (or even stale grounds) causing the next shot to be too fine.


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> i suspect there is more than tamping going on here. to go from a decent shot to nothing coming out ...





ashcroc said:


> Agree but it removes a variable assuming the same bean & dose is used.
> I'm wondering which grinder is being used & if there was some transference from dialing in with the good shot (or even stale grounds) causing the next shot to be too fine.


 I'm sure @Mrboots2u is probably right but I was thinking it must either be tamp pressure or a fault with the machine itself (dose, bean, grind being consistent of course), so as @ashcroc says, I thought it could remove a variable but yeah could be an unnecessary expense... Mine really helped me when I started making espresso and was still getting my head around everything, one less thing to worry about!

Hope you get to the bottom of it @Downhill Specialist


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

This is really curious. All I can think it's that you're at the edge of choking the machine so a small variation in tamp is causing full choking.

Eg you're tamping a little harder, or you're distributing very evenly which doesn't give the water any easy route through (implying you've got channeling when water does flow through which could be seen with a bottomless portafilter).

Did we find out what the grinder was?


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

Hey folks.

Thanks for all the replies and excuse me for not multi quoting at the moment. Let me try and answer some questions...

I am using the Sage smart grinder which I have been told previously on here is not the best.

Yes, when I say nothing at all, that last shot I got nothing at all from the machine, not even a drop. As I have run out of beans until the weekend when I can pick some up from my local coffee shop (keep using the same for consistency), I am just drinking a delicious French Press brew with Square Mile beans as I type this.

So my plan is this. Get a more accurate scale than I have now and possibly one of the tampers listed above to eliminate variables. Then see how I go from there. It's so frustrating just ripping through beans though to get nothing at all back.

Thanks again for the help so far.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Couple of thoughts.....

Do you keep the beans stored in the grinder hopper? Coffee beans are hygroscopic meaning they will absorb and give off moisture depending on atmospheric conditions. If you are right on the edge of choking, then a little change in humidity may be enough to push it over.

Secondly, an observation I made early on with the SG Pro (and I'm not diss'ing the grinder just pointing out limitations I learned to get around) is that the finer you go the more inconsistent it gets. It sounds as though you are trying to aim for a relatively fine grind at 43 seconds brew - It may be that you need to grind coarser. And to do that you'll need a soluble bean/roast that won't give the SGP heartburn. Look to get some medium/dark roasts and go for 1:2 to 1:3 in less than 30 seconds as a starting point.


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

lake_m said:


> Couple of thoughts.....
> 
> Do you keep the beans stored in the grinder hopper? Coffee beans are hygroscopic meaning they will absorb and give off moisture depending on atmospheric conditions. If you are right on the edge of choking, then a little change in humidity may be enough to push it over.
> 
> Secondly, an observation I made early on with the SG Pro (and I'm not diss'ing the grinder just pointing out limitations I learned to get around) is that the finer you go the more inconsistent it gets. It sounds as though you are trying to aim for a relatively fine grind at 43 seconds brew - It may be that you need to grind coarser. And to do that you'll need a soluble bean/roast that won't give the SGP heartburn. Look to get some medium/dark roasts and go for 1:2 to 1:3 in less than 30 seconds as a starting point.


 Thank you for the info. I only put enough for a couple of brews/days in the hopper and keep the rest in the bag and cupboard. I will be picking up more beans this weekend so will have a play with the grind and see how I go. I didn't aim for 43 seconds, that's just how long it took for that particular setting. I am enjoying learning so thank you.


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## FairRecycler (Sep 26, 2019)

Downhill Specialist said:


> Just want to come back to this as it has been a while and I didn't acknowledge the last few responses.
> 
> After having a few good cups, I am back to square one. Same beans, same grind, then boom, nothing but a few drips from the PF.
> 
> ...


 Hi,

I've just read the whole story through.

What I noticed you kept changing more variables at a time. This is exactly what I did when I first started 

227g of coffe not a lot to dial in for a newbie (be glad you not having a hand grinder  )

Let me try to provide you with simple steps to follow.

1st step dose: while you work on your dose do not touch anything else, don't even taste. start with 18-or 17gs and reduce it by 0.5g at a time until you will not see the image of the bolt holding your shower screen.

When you are there THAT IS YOUR DOSE with this beans with in this basket.

2nd step grind be accurate and consistent on your dosing from now (and on distributing and tamping as well)

From a coarse grind go finer and finer with tiny steps documenting the time, still not tasting. Once you get around 30 second's that's your grinder setting for this bean.

And now you can try different distribution and tamping techniques to inspect the differences and taste.

Once you done all these you can go back to dose and change it 0.5g up and than down with everything else constant. And taste.

And than go back to the grinder fine tune with everything else constant and taste.

It took me months first time, but I'm proud of my doubles now, however my singles can still be miserable  haha


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

FairRecycler said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've just read the whole story through.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for taking the time! I do actually use a hand grinder for my Aeropress coffee at work!

I still haven't managed to get any new beans for a while to sort this but will try and pick some up hopefully this weekend.

I will keep your points in mind when I do. Thanks again.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Downhill Specialist said:


> Just want to come back to this as it has been a while and I didn't acknowledge the last few responses.


 It's only been 10 months.

1. Try changing the pump...quite often they work off and on before they fail.

2. Cheap grinder - inconsistent grind could be the problem (can't remember what grinder you had, can't be


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

As a gaggia user mentioned it's a 14g basket. 15 may be too much and if not weighed accurately 1/2g is enough to give a super tamp when the grinds expand.

I'd suggest you try 13.5g to rule that out. It will need a finer grind so hope the grinder is up to it.

John

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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

I see a few people here are using or have been using the same grinder and say it is decent for four or five cups a day. I have nowhere near that with usually just one from it as I have an Aeropress in the mornings at work which I hand grind so I am only asking one or two grinds on a weekend from it daily. I cannot justify something more expensive for that use unfortunately.

I will see how I get on this weekend.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

I'm also thinking pump but maybe some other things.

Without a decent grinder you will get variation.

When it is not producing any coffee i'm guessing you hear the pump, do you get water our of the steam wand if you open it?

Can you post some photos of the basket you are using - it's not clear what size you are using? There are several types, single / double / pressurized / non - pressurised. Most folks use the double / non-pressurized and adjust the OPV pressure down - things get a lot easier.

The flow rate with the PF and an empty basket attached should be roughly the same. (it is with mine)

To check you are dosing correctly, fill the basket and tamp as usual, put a 5p piece on the coffee and then lock as usual and then unlock - there should not be any impression of the coin on the coffee. hth


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Good point above actually: it is an unpressurised basket isn't it?

Anyway after reading all this I think it's either the pump, the storage conditions of the beans, or the way you're running the grinder (or a combination of all three). You say you put some in the hopper for a few days and leave the bag in the cupboard. Do you seal the bag perfectly, squeezing all the air out? Is the one way valve sealed? By putting beans in a ziplock bag and removing all the air when it's sealed you'll really slow down the staling process so much so that the beans can behave just like they did the time they went into the bag on first opening. If you are putting "a few days worth" in the hopper and running until empty you'll get a lot of variation in grind from the first day to the last day...if you're topping up the hopper every day there shouldn't be too much difference EXCEPT if the beans stale rapidly in the hopper and then you get to the fresher beans that have been put into it from the (properly sealed?) bag....

To see if you're getting variation from one day to the next with the way you're running the grinder you'll need to keep dose consistent, this will allow you to see if your shot is speeding up or slowing down from one day to the next and if it is you know it's because the beans are ageing.

One further though is that very fresh beans can need a finer grind setting than beans that have been rested for a week, and then you'll need to gradually coarsen the grind from there as the beans get older. So if you're opening a freshly roasted bag and grinding on day 1 for a good shot, then choking the machine after letting the beans sit in the hopper all day that could be the reason.

A different tamper won't help unless you're really going for a gorilla tamp one day and a light tamp the next....it isn't difficult to keep it vaguely consistent which is all you need to do and it's easier to do that with a light tamp that would register as a few kg on a scale.


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

Thanks for the continued replies.

Ok, a little update. Got myself some new, freshly roasted beans (deer hunter) and some 0.1g scales.

This is what happened. Warmed machine up for 15 minutes, grind setting 10, ground 14.2g of beans, tamped and attempted a shot. Came out quicker and easier than anything I have had recently, so much so in fact that I got 52g of coffee in 30 seconds. Ok, it's a starting point. Drank it, very happy, tasted good.

That was yesterday. Fast forward to today...same grind settings, same weight of coffee out, 30 seconds pass and I have about 5 drips from the machine. This is why it is SO frustrating!

Also, when I keep hearing about the grinder not being great, I hear you but then read also on this very forum that one or two shots per day should be fine in it. Surely it shouldn't be THAT inconsistent? I mean, I don't want to open a coffee shop, nor do I want to fiddle constantly and use a full bag of beans every time I want to get a cup of coffee.

I am using what I believe is a double basket (still learning). I will attach a photo of it shortly. What I did learn though was that even with 14g of coffee, sometimes I am getting the impression of the shower head screw in the top of it.

I might just order another pump anyway to rule it out seeing a few people have mentioned it. (edit - just ordered one)


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Looks like a double basket (non-pressurised). I assume the machines doesn't sound very different between the good shots and non-shots. You are on a coffee enthusiasts forum so a £200 grinder isn't considered good but it should be fine to be going with.

I would kind of suspect the pump if you are going from OK shots to nothing especially with the same beans, grind setting and amount of coffee. This sort of thing is much easier to diagnose with a naked PF because you can see how the coffee is coming out of the basket. If its channelling to buggery then you will get espresso from a grind that is too fine but poorly distributed and then your next well distributed shot will simply clog up.

When you take the PF out and look at the puck of coffee, are there any obvious channels or holes in the puck when you get an extraction?


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

mctrials23 said:


> Looks like a double basket (non-pressurised). I assume the machines doesn't sound very different between the good shots and non-shots. You are on a coffee enthusiasts forum so a £200 grinder isn't considered good but it should be fine to be going with.
> 
> I would kind of suspect the pump if you are going from OK shots to nothing especially with the same beans, grind setting and amount of coffee. This sort of thing is much easier to diagnose with a naked PF because you can see how the coffee is coming out of the basket. If its channelling to buggery then you will get espresso from a grind that is too fine but poorly distributed and then your next well distributed shot will simply clog up.
> 
> When you take the PF out and look at the puck of coffee, are there any obvious channels or holes in the puck when you get an extraction?


 Thanks. Yes, I know from reading that a grinder at that level isn't considered good for a proper enthusiast, I was more saying that it shouldn't be that wildly different to the problems I seem to be having.

I haven't looked that closely or been able to tell on the last few but I will definitely pay more attention next time. I shall see what happens when my new pump comes.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Downhill Specialist said:


> Thanks. Yes, I know from reading that a grinder at that level isn't considered good for a proper enthusiast, I was more saying that it shouldn't be that wildly different to the problems I seem to be having.
> 
> I haven't looked that closely or been able to tell on the last few but I will definitely pay more attention next time. I shall see what happens when my new pump comes.


 Yeah, I never felt like the SGP was causing big issues with my coffee. That was kind of my point. Its not great but it wouldn't be causing your issues unless its defective. The pump is a good thing to rule out for sure.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Downhill Specialist said:


> Thanks for the continued replies.
> Ok, a little update. Got myself some new, freshly roasted beans (deer hunter) and some 0.1g scales.
> This is what happened. Warmed machine up for 15 minutes, grind setting 10, ground 14.2g of beans, tamped and attempted a shot. Came out quicker and easier than anything I have had recently, so much so in fact that I got 52g of coffee in 30 seconds. Ok, it's a starting point. Drank it, very happy, tasted good.
> That was yesterday. Fast forward to today...same grind settings, same weight of coffee out, 30 seconds pass and I have about 5 drips from the machine. This is why it is SO frustrating!
> ...


Any chance of a shot of the underside of the basket please? I'm pretty sure the unpressurized double doesn't have that straight section near the base.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I have used a Sage grinder pro. I doubt if that has anything to do with the problem unless for some reason the setting is jumping around. A loose burr might cause something like that. I drink a lot of 2nd crack monsooned malabar and initially didn't realise how fine I was grinding it. It didn't have any problems with that even brewing at 15bar. I do now I am using Niche and at 8 1/2 bar. LOL I get a bit brassed off with people slating this grinder not bearing the price in mind and actually am pretty sure a bit more on a grinder wont achieve much,

It might be worth checking that the outer burr is locked correctly in place. Also the burr setting. Some people set them for a finer grind when there shouldn't be any need. Details are in the manual which can be downloaded off Sage's site. Sometimes grinds get trapped in the section of plastic that the outer burr actually click locks into. Best to clean that out. It can prevent the burr from clicking into place. That may need a cocktail stick etc. The screw holding the centre burr is a left threaded one hand one. It's tightened with a bit of a anticlockwise jerk with a spanner. A photo of a well brushed inner burr showing the entire side will show if it has too much wear etc.

Past that as per the other comment I would suspect something awol in the machine. Or inaccurate scales being used so that the dose isn't as accurate as suggested. While grind numbers can't be compared accurately 22 is a pretty coarse setting for espresso so I am still inclined to wonder about just how much grinds this particular basket holds. If the gaggia is using a typical 14g double there is no way that will work out well with 18g in it.  Going on any I have used anyway. Maybe a coin test would be a good idea. Tamp etc, place as thin coin on top, fit, remove and a reasonable fill height will be just short of leaving an impression of the coin. A 1p or 5p should be suitable.

John

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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> Downhill Specialist said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the continued replies.
> ...


 This ^ photo's not great but that looks pressurised to my eyes.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Here is a comparison image of a double unpressurised Vs a double pressurised basket.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Simple if it is a pressurised. Bits in between the walls blocking the outlet hole. They can be "tuned" via grinder setting but having done it, curiosity - no point and wont generally produces decent results.

John

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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

Hopefully we are getting somewhere! Thanks for the links and replies (again).

Mine is a pressurised basket and it is missing the little frothing device from underneath it. I don't believe I have ever had this device and would explain this which I have experienced a LOT....

Coffee spraying all over the kitchen...

This is caused by a missing part called "Crema Filter Pin" or "Frothing Jet Device" in 99% of the cases. This part comes with the pressurized filter baskets and diverts the coffee coming out at a high pressure from the single hole of the pressurized basket, and in case it's missing, the coffee sprays straigh out the spout.
Replace the filter pin underneath the filter basket.

So I guess I need to acquire one of these?

https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/en/Gaggia-Saeco-Jet-Swirl-Emulsifier---4301007000-Reviews/r-3350.aspx

Although it doesn't explain the nothing whatsoever, but I guess that could be grounds clogging the hole as has been said?


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

Don't buy the pin, buy (or use) a normal unpressurized basket.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

catpuccino said:


> Don't buy the pin, buy (or use) a normal unpressurized basket.


 Yes indeed ?.

In fact if you are buying have a think about what size espresso you want to make. 20g or 18g are the most common. I splashed out on a 18g VST before realizing i should have bought a larger 20g as i need about 45g espresso to make the larger lattes i tend to drink. :good:


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Downhill Specialist said:


> Hopefully we are getting somewhere! Thanks for the links and replies (again).
> Mine is a pressurised basket and it is missing the little frothing device from underneath it. I don't believe I have ever had this device and would explain this which I have experienced a LOT....
> Coffee spraying all over the kitchen...
> _This is caused by a missing part called "Crema Filter Pin" or "Frothing Jet Device" in 99% of the cases. This part comes with the pressurized filter baskets and diverts the coffee coming out at a high pressure from the single hole of the pressurized basket, and in case it's missing, the coffee sprays straigh out the spout.
> ...


You'd be much better off just getting an unpressurised basket since you already have a grinder. 58mm are a common size so there's plenty of choice out there.


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

ok! Thank you. I am going to try and add it on to my order of the pump before they ship it later on. I will give them a call later.

Thank you as always for the help.


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

Pump and new, non-pressurised basket arriving before midday tomorrow.

I shall update soon.


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

Well.....

I would like to say thank you to everyone who offered help in this thread. Today, the new pump and basket arrived and I haven't changed the pump but with the new basket everything works as I would have expected/hoped in the first place. I thought the problem was me but there was no way results should have been so wildly different, even with some of the variables. I have just pulled three espresso shots, grinding a little finer each time keeping the weight to 14g and the results were as you'd expect with different pull rate each time until I got it close to 30g of extraction in around 26 seconds. I know I could keep adjusting but thought it senseless to waste beans at this stage and just drink one before it's too late in the day.

Hopefully I can contribute more now and start to try different beans again. I will keep hold of the pump, I think rather than return it as I guess mine may fail sooner or later.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Fantastic news. When I get close enough to drink, I generally just adjust for the next shot I'm making instead of pouring down the sink & making another immediately.


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## Downhill Specialist (Dec 21, 2018)

ashcroc said:


> Fantastic news. When I get close enough to drink, I generally just adjust for the next shot I'm making instead of pouring down the sink & making another immediately.


 

Little update in case anyone is still curious. Kept the grind setting the same (3) and increased to 14.5g which resulted in 29.7g in 30 seconds and a lovely Americano.

Happy days.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Glad to hear everything is sorted!


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