# This espresso stuff is tough!



## ibitezombies (Apr 12, 2014)

So for the last few evenings ( much to the bemusement of my wife ) I've been grinding, timing, tasting, and pouring away many shots with my new (to me anyway) Gaggia Classic.

Im a little confused at how fine a grind it should be taking to get a decent shot though. I had a bag ground for espresso machine in Starbucks, but it was almost like powder and I could hardly get any water through it at all.

So I've been using a Porlex hand grinder with some Rave Italian job beans and it seems that to get a decent shot (15g, 25sec, 60ml) it takes a much coarser grind than what the stuff I had ground was. It actually feels very similar to what I was using in my Aeropress ( which was ground halfway between espresso and filter by Starbucks).

I'm setting the Porlex to 6 clicks to get the shot in the right time, any finer and even with a really light tamp it was taking 50 secs + to get 60ml. From what I read the ideal setting for a Porlex is between 2 and 4, so I'm not sure if I'm doing something else wrong. Judging grinds is not easy!

I have an Iberital MC2 coming in the next few days from eBay so the whole process will have to be repeated when it arrives!

The shots I get right taste OK to me, if maybe a little weak. So does anyone have any tips or advice? Or do I just keep slogging away until I get there?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

To fine is going to choke your classic, ditch the grind from that place that we dont mention.

Wait for your new grinder, have plenty of fresh roasted beans that are at least 5 days rested and play away, pulling shots and tasting.

Weigh your shots out, so aiming for 24g out in 25 seconds, keep adjusting your grind and tamp till you nail this extraction ratio, then change it if you wish, weigh more in, weigh more out, its all about what tastes good to you, not what others are doing.

Last of all enjoy it!


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

ibitezombies said:


> The shots I get right taste OK to me, if maybe a little weak. So does anyone have any tips or advice? Or do I just keep slogging away until I get there?


I'm at a similar stage to you - with a Classic and a Hario slim and with encouragement from forum members - such as froggystyle - I'm beginning to enjoy the process of trial and error (I've also learnt to be careful about only changing one variable and making a note as I go so I don't get confused). I have been surprised (but shouldn't have) at how much difference (relatively) different beans make. While I'm getting more and more fascinated by the geeky stuff and in awe at the level of knowledge here (I'm still not sure how to describe what I'm tasting - but I have the same difficulty with wine), the soundest advice still seems to be, if all else fails, 'its all about what tastes good to you, not what others are doing' (Froggystyle quote).


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## ShortShots (Oct 2, 2013)

As everyone else says, its what tastes best for you.....but, I would suggest that 60ml is going to be a touch long. Start at 45g out and work your way down until you find what you like.


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

Well I've given my Gaggia every chance. It came already with the Silvia wand and a PID. I gave it a new brass dispersion plate, rubber gasket and POV'd it to 10 bar. Cleaned it thoroughly then got a bottomless portafilter and an IMS 18-20g basket. I use Ashbeck water and beans from two reputable suppliers (Rave & York Coffee Emporium). I grind on a (static free) Brasillia 55 OD, I weigh, I time I've put 18 g in and hit 28g between 20 and 30 seconds time after time and............have never tasted a shot that doesn't result in me having a face like a baby with a bad case of wind. So I always end up drinking lattes because I refuse to chuck it down the drain.

So either my taste buds just don't like strong espresso style coffee (a bit like I am with any kind of fish....yeeeuk!) or I'm just a bit of a failure. My money's on the latter, as I just know there is a chocolaty, caramely, buttery, citrusy, fruity, almondy coffee taste just waiting to be recognised, and I know there are plenty of Gaggia owners who taste the coffee nuances just at it should be tasted.

I'll keep going, I've not lost my enthusiasm at all, partly because I enjoy the ritual of making proper coffee. I'm even considering getting a pour over to see if that makes a difference. Also I've decided to go to a good coffee house in York and buy an espresso and see if a proper shot pulled by a proper barista on a professional machine still tasted to me like ditch water and if it does; stick with lattes.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Pompeyexile said:


> Well I've given my Gaggia every chance. It came already with the Silvia wand and a PID. I gave it a new brass dispersion plate, rubber gasket and POV'd it to 10 bar. Cleaned it thoroughly then got a bottomless portafilter and an IMS 18-20g basket. I use Ashbeck water and beans from two reputable suppliers (Rave & York Coffee Emporium). I grind on a (static free) Brasillia 55 OD, I weigh, I time I've put 18 g in and hit 28g between 20 and 30 seconds time after time and............have never tasted a shot that doesn't result in me having a face like a baby with a bad case of wind. So I always end up drinking lattes because I refuse to chuck it down the drain.
> 
> So either my taste buds just don't like strong espresso style coffee (a bit like I am with any kind of fish....yeeeuk!) or I'm just a bit of a failure. My money's on the latter, as I just know there is a chocolaty, caramely, buttery, citrusy, fruity, almondy coffee taste just waiting to be recognised, and I know there are plenty of Gaggia owners who taste the coffee nuances just at it should be tasted.
> 
> I'll keep going, I've not lost my enthusiasm at all, partly because I enjoy the ritual of making proper coffee. I'm even considering getting a pour over to see if that makes a difference. Also I've decided to go to a good coffee house in York and buy an espresso and see if a proper shot pulled by a proper barista on a professional machine still tasted to me like ditch water and if it does; stick with lattes.


That's a shame.

What beans are you using with it?

Are you using a naked PF with it? If so is there any sign of channelling?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

As you said Pompey try pourover, espresso ain't the only game in town


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Pompey perseverance is the key I managed to make some excellent shots on my none PID Classic with a Brasilia RR55, think back to your first ever driving lesson and how hard it seemed at the time but over a period of time you just get the hang of it. Try some Single Origin beans instead of blends maybe as then there should only be a single group of flavours to taste, try and find out if anywhere locally does cupping events, as that is an excellent way to start to distinguish flavours. I still find that some beans I have bought as they sound very interesting end up tasting vile to me as espresso, no matter how hard I try, but are fine in a small amount of milk.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Classic and Mignon was a winning combo for me, got such tasty shots out of that although now I reckon I liked them so much because they were underextracted and sour like Haribo Tangfastic


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Classic and Mignon was a winning combo for me, got such tasty shots out of that although now I reckon I liked them so much because they were underextracted and sour like Haribo Tangfastic


nope thats just down to the fact that you were grinding green beans rather than roast


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

I found constancy to be the key with the classic and only change one variable at a time .(small steps)


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Maybe the IMS basket is the problem? I remember reading that they can cause problems if you are not experienced.


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

I know it may go against the grain for a newby but I really find it easy using a bottomless portafilter. I never seemed to have had channelling as the extract always seems to come out within a short time as a nice single tail in the centre and not all over the place and never spraying around, straight into the centre of the cup. However, I will give the standard portafilter a go as I have a double and I bought a new single one when I made my POV adjuster. I'll make sure IO take out the little plastic widget though as that would be cheating.

Beans I've used have been Raves fudge (I know that isn't for espresso but even with milk I can't taste even the merest hint of fudge) signature, Mocha Java, Suarez, and from York Coffee Emporium, Ethiopian Kaffa Forest, Sumatran Gegerang, Nicaragua Finca and Brazilian Fazenda all of which I believe are good for espresso, and some single origin beans. The last two however I haven't tried yet as I've only just opened the Mocha Java.

I am going to film my prep and post it but I understand I have to put it on Youtube first to transfer it onto the forum and I'm not tech savvy.

As I say Charlie I won't stop and boy will you lot hear about it when (notice when and not if) I get it. I'm sure there are some decent independent coffee houses in York I can try as well, and I'll look out for the cupping events you mentioned. So onwards and upwards!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Pompeyexile said:


> Beans I've used have been Raves fudge (I know that isn't for espresso but even with milk I can't taste even the merest hint of fudge)


I dont think you are supposed to taste fudge, i believe its the feel of it that gives you a fudgy kind of feel, if you get me!?

I love the stuff!


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## ibitezombies (Apr 12, 2014)

Pompeyexile said:


> So either my taste buds just don't like strong espresso style coffee.


Did you like espresso before you started with the gaggia? Its certainly an acquired taste, and there's plenty of coffee lovers I know that can't stand it!


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## ibitezombies (Apr 12, 2014)

ShortShots said:


> As everyone else says, its what tastes best for you.....but, I would suggest that 60ml is going to be a touch long. Start at 45g out and work your way down until you find what you like.


So I should be getting 45g in 25ish seconds?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

No, more like 40 seconds, but it depends on your grind and tamping...


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## ibitezombies (Apr 12, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> No, more like 40 seconds, but it depends on your grind and tamping...


I thought for a double I should be using 14-18g of coffee to get 60ml in 25 seconds?

Or am I way off?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Do you have scales that you weigh your beans with?


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

What!? Not taste fudge? Blimey no wonder I'm hopless at this malarky.

Hold on I've just checked their website and it says......

*Use whole milk and&#8230;.. Fudge and Caramel galore.*



*
*Nope; not a chuffin hint.


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

Never tried espresso before so like you say I might just not like it. Just like me though get an idea on something and dive straight in. Perhaps I should have gone to a decent coffe shop first. Mind you if I had I wouldn't be drinking proper coffee even with milk so I'm not disappointed and wouldn't go back to in....inst......inbluurgh! Nope can't even say it.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Instant.....

Haha i said it...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I think you could really benefit from visiting another member especially one with a classic, fudge is lovely through milk


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## ibitezombies (Apr 12, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> Do you have scales that you weigh your beans with?


Yeah I'm using electronic kitchen scales, they're only accurate to the gram though, not any finer than that.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Hi Pompeyexile where abouts in the country are you?


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

About twelve miles south of Ye Olde York


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Ok, pick up some that go down to 0.1g from ebay, should be able to get a set for under £5 delivered from China, weigh output in gs. 28g is about 1oz.


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## ibitezombies (Apr 12, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> Ok, pick up some that go down to 0.1g from ebay, should be able to get a set for under £5 delivered from China, weigh output in gs. 28g is about 1oz.


Done!

So say I'm using 15g in a double basket, how much should I be aiming to get in 25secs?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

If i put 15g in my double, i aim for about 26g out, but you can push it further, try taking it up to 30g and see what it taste like.

If you have a triple basket chuck that in a dose 19g of coffee and take it further, but then water temp will come into play as the cold water rushes into the boiler from the water tank cooling as it does.

If you get the grind, tamp and water temp right then keep playing with time and weights and see what flavor comes out.

Play around and enjoy it!


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## ibitezombies (Apr 12, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> If i put 15g in my double, i aim for about 26g out, but you can push it further, try taking it up to 30g and see what it taste like.
> 
> If you have a triple basket chuck that in a dose 19g of coffee and take it further, but then water temp will come into play as the cold water rushes into the boiler from the water tank cooling as it does.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply, but I'm still a little confused. Do you mean 25g per glass? Or 25g as the whole double?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I only pour a shot into one cup at a time, are you putting two cups under the portafilter?


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## ibitezombies (Apr 12, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> I only pour a shot into one cup at a time, are you putting two cups under the portafilter?


No just one at the moment. Most things I've seen online say that you should be aiming for 60ml in 25 seconds from 14g, that's why I wasn't sure if you meant 25g for the whole pour.

Sorry I know I'm being a bit n00bish lol!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Maybe, but i am not sure what the density of espresso is...

Anyhoo, forget measuring in ml, do it all in g

So yes 25g for the whole pour would be fine.


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## ibitezombies (Apr 12, 2014)

Awesome. Thanks. I'll give it a blast tonight report back!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Pompeyexile said:


> I grind on a (static free) Brasillia 55 OD, I weigh, I time I've put 18 g in and hit 28g between 20 and 30 seconds time after time and............have never tasted a shot that doesn't result in me having a face like a baby with a bad case of wind. So I always end up drinking lattes because I refuse to chuck it down the drain.
> 
> So either my taste buds just don't like strong espresso style coffee (a bit like I am with any kind of fish....yeeeuk!) or I'm just a bit of a failure. My money's on the latter, as I just know there is a chocolaty, caramely, buttery, citrusy, fruity, almondy coffee taste just waiting to be recognised, and I know there are plenty of Gaggia owners who taste the coffee nuances just at it should be tasted.


As Coffeechap says, you may well benefit from some 1:1 time. This may be a little hard to get your head around, but your espresso shouldn't taste wildly different to other coffee (made with the same beans). If you like coffee made by other means, try turning your shots into Americanos, so they are less intense? When you do this ask yourself if they are still recogniseable as "coffee" to you? You're on the right track with the weighing in & out, but the grind is the thing, perhaps your still not getting in the range you need to, or maybe you could do with going a little longer on the shot weight?

Make a french press with your beans, don't drink it all at once, try a little every few minutes to see how the flavour develops, are you getting anything like these flavours from your espresso/Americanos?


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

Thanks for the advice MWJB I'll give French Press and Americano a go and report back.


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## ibitezombies (Apr 12, 2014)

So I've been experimenting, and I've managed to get around 40g in 25 secs. It still seems to take a very coarse grind and not much tamping. Anything finer and there's barely any flow at all! I know it's hard to judge from a photo, but this is the grind I'm currently finding works.









Does this look within the expected range?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Difficult to judge degree of grind from a picture. 40grm in 25 secs is in the ball park though - what are you dosing? Your original post mentions use of a Porlex. You're not going to get brilliant results with it for espresso if that's what you're still using. The MC2 should be better. Ultimately, it's the taste that matters. A decent espresso should give good mouthfeel, not be bitter and the aftertaste should linger for many minutes.


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## ibitezombies (Apr 12, 2014)

I'm using 15g as a dose, although my scales aren't the . I'm not sure about the tamp either, I've been watching some YouTube vids about not, and if I tamp like they suggest, I seem to not get any water through the coffee at all!

I guess I'll have to hold tight until the MC2 arrives ( hopefully today!), and then the porlex can be resigned to Aeropress duties!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

If that grind works and it tastes OK (How does it taste??) then go for it.

It does though seem a little quick to me.


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## ibitezombies (Apr 12, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> If that grind works and it tastes OK (How does it taste??) then go for it.
> 
> It does though seem a little quick to me.


It tastes OK. Maybe a lacking a little kick. The pour seems quite fast from what I've seen on vids. I might try keeping that grind and tamping harder, see what effect that has.

The MC2 can't come quickly enough, I've been changing the settings on the Porlex back and forth beteeen espresso and aeropress so I'm sure that's not helping at all....

The MC2 will be purely for espresso and nothing else.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Tamp firmly, but not to hard, try it, if it pours fast still, tamp a little harder.

Stick with it, it will come good, just try not to change to many things at the same time so keep that grind and weight, but change the tamp a little.

Think your new grinder will help a lot.


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## ibitezombies (Apr 12, 2014)

Well what a difference the MC2 makes! It's taken a lot of time, and about half a kilo of beans, but I'm finally getting (fairly) consistent shots. I'm still getting used to how to get the dosing right from the grinder though. But things are certainly better than there were a few days ago!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Nice one, stick with it!


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I've got a Classic and an MC2 as well. It certainly makes better espresso (and milk) than what I had before I discovered this forum.

However, I am still getting lost quite easily - every time I change beans and have to readjust, I find I end up getting it right just about near the end of the bag. I think I'd better stick to one bean for a bit longer until I've got this sussed a bit more. I can go from a 10 second extraction to a choker just on tamping pressure without even adjusting the grind. I knew tamping would make a difference but wasn't expecting it to be quite such a be-all-and-end-all as it has turned out to be. I aim for the oft-quoted 30lb tamp just because I've read that it's supposed to be about right, and it feels to me to be a pressure that is easily attainable but feels like the limit before getting silly heavy-handed. Yet another thing to aim for consistency in&#8230;


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

hotmetal said:


> I've got a Classic and an MC2 as well. It certainly makes better espresso (and milk) than what I had before I discovered this forum.
> 
> However, I am still getting lost quite easily - every time I change beans and have to readjust, I find I end up getting it right just about near the end of the bag. I think I'd better stick to one bean for a bit longer until I've got this sussed a bit more. I can go from a 10 second extraction to a choker just on tamping pressure without even adjusting the grind. I knew tamping would make a difference but wasn't expecting it to be quite such a be-all-and-end-all as it has turned out to be. I aim for the oft-quoted 30lb tamp just because I've read that it's supposed to be about right, and it feels to me to be a pressure that is easily attainable but feels like the limit before getting silly heavy-handed. Yet another thing to aim for consistency in&#8230;


Consistency of tamp is far more important than focusing on the so called best pressure of 30 lbs, as a rough guide the finer you grind the lighter you need to tamp and if you grinder coarser tamp harder, or nutate and tamp lightly. 30 lbs of pressure is actually far lighter than you may think, I know when I had a play with one the Espro calibrated tampers at the BB members day last year I was surprised how light it seemed.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I've been practicing using the bathroom scales so I know roughly what it feels like. I'm using that as a baseline so I can adjust the grind. If I float freely on grind and pressure I'll be all over the show! Not saying that 30lb is the best (I'm in no position to say!) but I chose it as I'd read on here it was a good start point.


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## ibitezombies (Apr 12, 2014)

hotmetal said:


> I've got a Classic and an MC2 as well. It certainly makes better espresso (and milk) than what I had before I discovered this forum.
> 
> However, I am still getting lost quite easily - every time I change beans and have to readjust, I find I end up getting it right just about near the end of the bag. I think I'd better stick to one bean for a bit longer until I've got this sussed a bit more. I can go from a 10 second extraction to a choker just on tamping pressure without even adjusting the grind. I knew tamping would make a difference but wasn't expecting it to be quite such a be-all-and-end-all as it has turned out to be. I aim for the oft-quoted 30lb tamp just because I've read that it's supposed to be about right, and it feels to me to be a pressure that is easily attainable but feels like the limit before getting silly heavy-handed. Yet another thing to aim for consistency in&#8230;


This is exactly the stage I am at now, I hadn't expected that different beans would need so much adjustment. I have 2 kilos of one type of beans due to go in next, so I'm hoping that by the end of those I will have a better understanding of things.

Like you I also underestimated the importance of the tamp! I bought a better tamper than the plastic one that came with the machine, and had thought it would solve all my problems but how wrong I was! I am trying to get the consistency down, but I don't have bathroom scales to try and understand what 30lbs feels like, so its currently a lot of trial and error!

I hope that once I get started into this 2kilos, and get the grind right for it, the tamp will be the only variable to work on, and hopefully it will just come with time.


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

The tamp isn't really important to get 30lbs, you can tamp as lightly as you want but make sure you always tamp the same, it's about being consistent. If you tamp lighter, you'll find the grinds are a little finer than when you tamp heavily.


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