# lever vs Pump



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Being a lever head my bias and preference for a machine is firmly slotted into the quiet side of life and hopefully my search for the replacement beautiful italian thoroughbred lever machine is close to be becoming a reality, I love the simplicity and reduced pressure profile of the sprung lever, the ease of service and stisfaction of physically pulling a shot of coffee.

However in a world as diverse as we live our preferences and wants are so very different, so what is you preference and why?


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

I reckon that simplicity is the crucial word when relating to the difference between a sprung lever and a semi-auto...

I only have second hand experience of friends who have the latter, a Faema commercial machine and a Rancillio Sylvia... I watch these guys in awe, as they measure the precise amount of flush water, and judge by eye the precise temperature of the eventual pour...









I have to admit that I have limited experience with any form of espresso machine, but I reckon that I have learned enough to know that what Dave says here is right... Some of the most expensive machines on the market attempt to do what a sprung lever machine does without any prompting from the user... Pressure profiling on machines from the likes La Marzocco and Synesso, using the hand operated paddle valve, computerised temperature solenoids?... £15Gs!

I really can't speak about manual levers though, they look more difficult than either of the above, though I am sure some people could put me right.

I would be interested to know what you consider to be your "dream machine" Dave, I mean the Bosco must be up there in Godland?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> I love the simplicity and reduced pressure profile of the sprung lever, the ease of service and stisfaction of physically pulling a shot of coffee


Couldn't agree more, Dave. Love the feedback a lever provides - when you let go the lever to pull a shot, you actually feel the pressure as the spring tension meets the resistance in the group. I am now able to get a good idea of the quality of the shot by the degree of resistance before the shot is fully extracted. Shows up any channelling however minor - seriously cool.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

One difference that interests me is that pump heads are always concerned about temperature stability (PIDs, flushes etc.) where there doesn't seem to be such discussion around levers bar that one thread (I wont go there). I think the principle of the lever pressure profile is desirable but I would be concerned about accurate temperature stability. Also and probably the main issue with levers is finding a space in the home given the height. I will definitely own a lever in the future but circumstances will dictate my next upgrade being a pump.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Definatly a vibratory pump. The noise saves me going upstairs to wake the kids up for school


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

glevum said:


> Definatly a vibratory pump. The noise saves me going upstairs to wake the kids up for school


...and the neighbours??


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

glevum said:


> Definatly a vibratory pump. The noise saves me going upstairs to wake the kids up for school


And he's not even talking about the coffee machine!!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

shrink said:


> And he's not even talking about the coffee machine!!


Oh, I did wonder. Thanks for putting me straight.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

When I was a pump driven boy, I thought I new everything. Now I am a lever boy, I realise that I knew nothing.......


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

"...I thought I new everything...."

How about your smelling Dave?...


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> When I was a pump driven boy, I thought I new everything. Now I am a lever boy, I realise that I knew nothing.......


Thought you had a Strega....a pump & a lever:exit:


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

I've never owned an E61 machine so my experiences are limited, but going from a Gaggia Classic to a Olympia Cremina, the difference was so vast...

There is a special charm in a manual lever machine like the Cremina as your hand is creating the pressure, but the LI beats it hands down in terms of consistency and ease of use.

I have found it is difficult to get a really bad shot out of a lever machine and the classic commercial lever group is a thing of beauty. It does through mechanical principles what the most sophisticated modern machine do through electronics, and I think it comes down to a matter of personal preference whether you prefer mechanical simplicity over the tweakability of electronic controls.

I think if you are really into 'difficult' light-roasted beans where you are continually playing with temperature to get the best out of them a lever machine is not for you, but if your tastes are more classical it's difficult to fault a lever.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

sjenner said:


> "...I thought I new everything...."
> 
> How about your smelling Dave?...


Sorry the pun escaped you Stephen....it was new, as in new to the real coffee experience only owning a lever might bring


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Pump here for me ......Temperature stability maintained throughout the entire shot isnt as much of a concern (slight declining is probably a good thing). but knowing the machine will be that same 9Xc each time at the start of every shot...and that X is configerable. Ive had coffees tasting flat at 91C but stunning at 96 and vise versa.

I cannot be bothered with HX flushing & having steaming power affected by reducing the overall temp of the machine, so this leads me to dual boiler.

I like the idea of preinfusion a gentle ramp up to 8.5-9.5BAR forgiving and even saturation of the coffee bed (without an expensive commercial machine), so this points to e61. Its great being able to kill the pump (lever at mid point) and still have enough water flow for the last 5 seconds of the shot, can kind-of deline the pressure..

Negative points - noisy pump, dont have ability to plumb in, but would LOVE rotary.

- no easy access to open up the boiler for descale, v long winded faff to flush all the citric acid out.

I guess the dream machine would be a Slayer 1 group BUT where you could , once happy with the profile, 'record' a pull and then replay it with a single button press..... or an LM Linea 1 group


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## CoffeeDoc (Dec 26, 2012)

I am slightly cautious about making a statement here, as i am so new to making espresso, I chose a dual boiler because I could not get my head around the idea of a cooling shot, I wanted the quiet and reliability of a rotary pump and the option of a plumbed in machine but i live in a very hard water area and so at present need to be able to use bottled water (Tesco's Ashbeck) this combined with a visit to Bella Barista made me choose an Alex Duetto. I thought long and hard about a lever but the height needed was a major consideration.

Paul


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Paul, the lever boys and the pump boys often seem to square up, but it is all harmless fun. The best part of having an opinion, is that we can all be right in our own way!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I am sorry but I disagree


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Paul, the lever boys and the pump boys often seem to square up, but it is all harmless fun. The best part of having an opinion, is that we can all be right in our own way!


Recall arguing about the pros and cons of something less than important when my mother paused for a moment and said, 'I may be dogmatic, but I'm right'. Game, set and match I thought at the time. The lever versus E61 is a bit like which end of the egg should be opened in Guilliver's Travels.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

What do you disagree with then, cc?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I was just expressing an opinion and thus being right


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

What I love about this thread is that the small but exclusive lever club were the first to get their opinions in, now perhaps we are insecure and have to rave about the virtues of levers to justify the expense of the purchase we made, or perhaps we are simple and just don't understand the complexity of pids and pumps, or perhaps we are just secure in the knowledge that there really is nothing more beautiful ( coffee wise) than the sound and look of the lever pour.....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Sounds like you are inviting me to come back with some Northern wit by calling you a bearded southern softie, but I will decline!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Interesting question - If a pump machine could exactly mimic the pressure and temperature profile of a top lever machine , aswell as acting like a conventional pump machine, would the guys with levers be tempted?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Absolutely that would be fantastic, however can you make it silent?


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

I have a dual boiler pump machine and spent 18 months getting the most out of a Gaggia Factory manual lever. It was a great little machine and pretty repeatable when you know what you're doing.

The Duetto is lovely - I do like to tweak but not every day. Like Gary said, it's the repeatability which does it for me and the convenience.

One thing I would say though is that I don't think that the aim of a machine that can pressure profile is to emulate a lever, more to try to explore the effect of pressure on a shot. As far as I'm aware most places with machines that pressure profile aren't using a continually reducing pressure like a spring.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Interesting question - If a pump machine could exactly mimic the pressure and temperature profile of a top lever machine , aswell as acting like a conventional pump machine, would the guys with levers be tempted?


I wonder just how much that machine would cost though gary?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> I wonder just how much that machine would cost though gary?


Probably the Slayer 1 group ball park

You can make rotarys very very very silent, often the pump being external it can be housed within sound proofing


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

lookseehear said:


> As far as I'm aware most places with machines that pressure profile aren't using a continually reducing pressure like a spring.


No but it could be done if the end result was the ultimate in cup experience


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

garydyke1 said:


> No but it could be done if the end result was the ultimate in cup experience


Exactly. I guess the question I'm posing is that if the declining profile was the ideal one, wouldn't everyone with a pressure profiling machine be using it and raving about it?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Probably the Slayer 1 group ball park
> 
> You can make rotarys very very very silent, often the pump being external it can be housed within sound proofing


I shall put it on the wish list, but after the huge disappointment recently I shall not hold my breath. I whole hearted let agree with pumps mounted externally, they function better in a cooler environment too.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

lookseehear said:


> Exactly. I guess the question I'm posing is that if the declining profile was the ideal one, wouldn't everyone with a pressure profiling machine be using it and raving about it?


Wish I could try myself at home to find out : (

Playing lotto/euro mils again this week


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

lookseehear said:


> Exactly. I guess the question I'm posing is that if the declining profile was the ideal one, wouldn't everyone with a pressure profiling machine be using it and raving about it?


Not necessarily, everyone that has it engineered into their machine by default is raving about it, but those that have a choice , which are in the minority, probably play with all kinds of pressure profiles that suit their own needs, I still get to play with pressure profile on my lever as I can still increase and decrease pressure through the lever, and the earlier comment about shot consistency only really applies to manual lever machines as e sprung levers are super consistent.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am out of my depth, and bow to my pal with the superior knowledge..........


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I am beginning to feel the pull to the lever side.......


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> I am beginning to feel the pull to the lever side.......


You will, when you come over!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Did you get my message re date¿


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Did you get my message re date¿


Yep - replied to it.


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## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

Loving the shots I'm getting from the L I, but I've still got a soft spot for the Vivi.


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

Would it really be that hard to run a variable resistor in line with the pump and regulate the pressure profile throughout the shot? How expensive can that be?

I see no reason why in the future your beans couldn't have a barcode on the bag which you'll be able to scan with your phone, this will load the roasters' pressure and temperature profile for the bean, and potentially even the grind and dose settings to your grinder. You'll have the ability to tweak via sweetness, acidity etc. and even download other people's profiles for the same bean!

Perhaps run vibrations through the group head at the resonant frequencies of the molecules you want to coerce into your extraction...

....maybe stick a laser on it with blue tack for good measure?


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> If a pump machine could exactly mimic the pressure and temperature profile of a top lever machine , aswell as acting like a conventional pump machine, would the guys with levers be tempted?


In various "pump vs lever" discussions, people tend to focus on the declining pressure profile and sometimes ignore other factors. To me, the differences include:

1. lever's declining pressure profile

2. lever's declining temperature profile

3. lever's low pressure preinfusion

4. lever's possible more thorough preinfusion due to solid column of water above the puck

Many pump machines can be modified to accomplish #1 and #3. It's quite difficult to get a pump machine to do #2; #4 may be impossible.

And there may be additional factors that are more subtle.

So far in my experience with three different pump machines, numbers 1 and 3 alone aren't necessarily enough to get the espresso to taste like the best lever shots taste. And certainly there are significant differences in the method of preinfusion, pressure profile, and temperature profile among lever machines.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I certainly think that recently, levers have started to have a much wider audience and as such there appears to be a bit of a revivel in progress, I for one love the levers that I have and get immense satisfaction from the action of them.....


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## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

Maintenance wise, which type of machine requires more tlc?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Pumps more parts to go wrong


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