# Getting frustrated with sourness...



## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

Hi All

I am getting some frustration as I seem to be going backwards in terms of results as I have improved equipment an technique....

My main problem seems to be sourness in the cup. I know I have posted a lot about that already but this is becoming annoying..

I used to have a very basic modified delonghi machine and I recently upgraded to the Lelit MaraX and eureka mignon grinder so it is definitely not going to be a hurdle for what I'm trying to do

I've had the machine for 2 months now and after some trial and error I was very happy with the italian job results in the cup. I recently changed beans as my girlfriend isnt a big fan of the very dark roast (I am) so we settled on the Rave signature blend. This is clearly still on the dark side so not expecting much acidity from those beans

I have had it since Monday 4th (was roasted on 27th) and so far I can't drink a good shot

so, summing up:

Set-up: MaraX + Eureka Mignon Specialita. Set on I (mid setting - 92 degrees)
Method: grind 18g into the grinder, declump with cocktail stick - I have bottomless portafilter, no sign of channelling/bad distribution, very nice coloured even flow of dark broawn coffee
Crema looks really good
Puck lookds good
Water used: Volvic

now, the most important: taste: Not good

first impression on the thong is very sharp/acidic/sour. I have to mention here that I normally love acidic taste. I put lemon/lime on a lot of food/drinks. I don't think my palate is very sensitive to it

Recipes used. Based on Rave website, I started

Weight in: Always 18g

1: 36 output in 32-35 sec: Sour/thin

2. 38 output in 35 sec: Sour and thin/watery

3. 40 output around 35sec also (not timing to the millisecond): Same unpleasant taste and obviously even more watery

4. 45g out is still sour.. probably marginally less but it is starting to look more like an americano than an espresso

Grind finer

1. 36 output in 35sec: even more sour/acidic !

I even tried to get 45g out at this very fine setting, coffee took 45sec to come out and result was still unpleasant

I know that sourness normally comes from under extraction. I am trying to extract more and grin finer but I clearly can't see much improvement. It even seemed like it was getting more sour as I was going finer

I am going pessimistic as the only thing I haven't done yet is upping the temperature but going to a the highest temp setting on such a dark roast doesnt seem like the right thing to do...

Any tip ?


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

I sound like a broken record with this one and it is an extreme simplification but over extracted coffee is often bitter and a lot of people have bitter sour confusion.

Could you be over extracting and tasting bitter notes rather than sour?

Perhaps try grinding a little more coarse and bringing your extraction time down to 30 seconds from the pump kicking in.

Try 18 in 36 out over 28-30 seconds.

You may seen and improvement you may not. I just wonder if it is worth a try as your palate is telling you 'even more sour' at finer grind settings.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Can you quantify your grind settings? 'Fine, finer', don't really travel well.

Maybe you are just past the point of diminishing returns, going finer could be extracting less, hence more sourness?

How about dropping the dose a gram & aiming 34-36g out at your earlier setting, or a shade coarser.

If the flow is dark brown throughout, I would expect the shot to be sour.

Where are you grinding into again? You said you are, "grinding into the grinder", grind into a cup/jug/pot, check weight, transfer to PF.


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

@Black Cat Coffee. Just tried it. See pictures. didnt really do it.. still this acidic taste. I couldn't get exactly 36 out but got 38. still this acidic taste at first. The interesting thing is that the aftertaste is nice and leaves caramel / chocolate notes. It is the initial/first taste that is unpleasant

@MWJB Grind was at 1 on the Eureka. I moved it to 1.5 to try Black cat's suggestion, didn't work..

flow is very dark brown and slow at the beginning but I am surprised at how fast it goes after the first 5/10 seconds... when I stop the shot, it is not so dark anymore but not totally blond either.

I am grinding directly into the portafilter (sorry for the typo). I weigh portafilter, tare the scale, grind into it and add/remove if necessary but I'm consistently using 18g dose.

I guess I can try lowering the dose but I was under the impression that the signature blend is an "easy" blend and therefore struggle to understand why it is so difficult to get something decent 😭

attached pictures are my latest try: 18g in / 38 out with slightly coarser grind. 27sec - still acidic. like biting a lime at first


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

damo said:


> @Black Cat Coffee. Just tried it. See pictures. didnt really do it.. still this acidic taste. I couldn't get exactly 36 out but got 38. still this acidic taste at first. The interesting thing is that the aftertaste is nice and leaves caramel / chocolate notes. It is the initial/first taste that is unpleasant
> 
> @MWJB Grind was at 1 on the Eureka. I moved it to 1.5 to try Black cat's suggestion, didn't work..
> 
> ...


 Do you stir your espresso before drinking?


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

I usually do.

sometimes only taste the crema first but I would stir it straight after


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

damo said:


> @MWJB Grind was at 1 on the Eureka. I moved it to 1.5 to try Black cat's suggestion, didn't work..
> 
> I am grinding directly into the portafilter (sorry for the typo). I weigh portafilter, tare the scale, grind into it and add/remove if necessary but I'm consistently using 18g dose.
> 
> ...


 Don't grind into the PF.

You went 50% coarser at the same dose & ratio, this isn't likely to decrease sourness.

I don't see these things as easy, nor hard, just what you have to do do get a nice cup, if the sourness diminishes as the cup progresses, you might not be far off.Keep going.

Before you get too frustrated, you might try a 1:1.3 so 17:19/20g (not 1:3 ratio like I originally wrote), you might fall in at an extraction below the sour zone?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

EDIT to last post: Before you get too frustrated, you might try a 1:1.3 so 17:19/20g (not 1:3 ratio like I originally wrote)


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

Thanks for trying to help !

Just out of interest, why not grinding into PF directly ?

I went 50% coarser and the shot looked already very quick flowing. isnt it likely to be a total gusher if I go even coarser ?

I'll try the 1:1.3 later this afternoon and revert


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Don't go coarser than 1.5...how much wiggle room do you have between 1.0 & 1.5? Even at 1.0 your extraction shouldn't drop at 17: 34/36.

Easier to distribute well by not grinding direct into PF.


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

1 to 1.5 is quite a bit of a difference already. do you believe the sweet spot should be between the two ?

the odd thing is I think at the beginning (a few days ago when I first dialled it in, the taste was better. a bit sharp/acidic to begin but definitely "ok")

do you believe I should increase temp ? I'm puzzled with that as it is already quite a dark roast

thanks


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

damo said:


> 1 to 1.5 is quite a bit of a difference already. do you believe the sweet spot should be between the two ?
> 
> the odd thing is I think at the beginning (a few days ago when I first dialled it in, the taste was better. a bit sharp/acidic to begin but definitely "ok")
> 
> ...


 You said that at 1.5 it was very fast flowing and presumably sour? How long did the shot take? Sounds like going coarser will make things worse?

What was the setting when you originally dialled in?

I have no suggestions regarding temp, has the current temp worked in the past?


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

at 1.5 it took 26/27 sec

initially I was close to 1 (maybe 1.1) and it was taking 34 sec on average

The current temperature worked well with the italian job


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

damo said:


> at 1.5 it took 26/27 sec
> 
> initially I was close to 1 (maybe 1.1) and it was taking 34 sec on average
> 
> The current temperature worked well with the italian job


 Going coarser than that doesn't look like it will help based on this.

Temp can't be far wrong then.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Don't forget that there will be a small amount of retention in your grinder and as such you will probably only see a fully accurate reflection of grind changes on the second shot.

Apologies if you are already aware of this.


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

no prob. I tend to adjust the grind (turn the thing) when the grinder is running to purge as it goes. Good practice ?

Also I do not think there's a huge amount of retention with the mignon


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

damo said:


> no prob. I tend to adjust the grind (turn the thing) when the grinder is running to purge as it goes. Good practice ?
> 
> Also I do not think there's a huge amount of retention with the mignon


 Yes providing that is actually being purged and not used.


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

ok, I tried 1:1.2 (17 in, 19 out). It cam out in 19 sec.

Undrinkable (not sure it was supposed to be or if it was an experiment ?). it was like hot lemon juice.

Have given up for today... will try more tomorrow I guess


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

damo said:


> ok, I tried 1:1.2 (17 in, 19 out). It cam out in 19 sec.
> 
> Undrinkable (not sure it was supposed to be or if it was an experiment ?). it was like hot lemon juice.
> 
> Have given up for today... will try more tomorrow I guess


 What grind setting?


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

went back closer to 1 so on the finer side

Other thing, i don't know if it is any helpful but maybe.. I realise the crema looks nice and thick but dissipates quite quickly as soon as I give it a little stir. Does this mean anything ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

damo said:


> went back closer to 1 so on the finer side
> 
> Other thing, i don't know if it is any helpful but maybe.. I realise the crema looks nice and thick but dissipates quite quickly as soon as I give it a little stir. Does this mean anything ?


 OK, the idea was that a little under-extraction causes sourness. A lot of under-extraction can be less sour, more sweet & gooey, heavy body, go too far and it just tastes like dirt.

Usually with under-extraction, you'd grind just coarse enough to get a decent extraction & extend the ratio to mitigate sourness, but you don't seem to want a thinner espresso that this will result in. So, going shorter on the ratio could let you slip in before sourness. The shot may be quick, but this is expected.

If "0" is when your burrs touch, 1.0 to 1.5 seems like a large relative jump. A big jump in finer grind & a big jump in ratio could leave you in exactly the same place at grind "1.0" 1:1.2 as at grind "1.5" & 1:2.0. Try not to make big adjustments on 2 fronts as you could be cancelling them out (just changing the concentration/intensity, but with the same fault).

I have no interest in crema, I don't care what shots look like, just what they taste like. Are you going to drink your shot or make an oil painting of it?


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

right now I'm pouring them down the drain so you're right, what they look like doesnt matter !


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

If I understand what you're saying with grind and ratio, 1:2 ratio at "1" setting should be going in the right direction right ? (I.e. extract more)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

damo said:


> If I understand what you're saying with grind and ratio, 1:2 ratio at "1" setting should be going in the right direction right ? (I.e. extract more)


 At the top of this page you seemed to be at "1.0" and 1:2.0 and this didn't seem to be working?

If you don't want weaker shots by going longer on ratio to extract more and going lower than "1.0" doesn't lose the sourness, you might be better deliberately under-extracting a little farther to avoid sourness.


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

I'm getting a little confused.

I always thought that sourness = under extraction

under-extracting even more would get rid of the sourness ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

damo said:


> I'm getting a little confused.
> 
> I always thought that sourness = under extraction
> 
> under-extracting even more would get rid of the sourness ?


 It's not linear. There aren't just 3 taste detectable states: sour, balanced, bitter (a most misleading & unhelpful myth) . It's more like:

1. bitter/dirty/oily,

2. then sweet & simple,

3. then sour,

4. then dry/woody/charred, maybe still with hints of tartness in the start.

5. then balanced with clarity, pleasing ripe fruit acidity & sweetness will come through (if it's there), Ideal extraction for lot of people.

6. then flat/lacking acidity, May/may not be over-extracted but you have either ground too fine, pushed too much water through the puck & pushed too much silt into the cup.

7. then proper over-extraction which is smoky/bitter hop/throat drying. Long, unpleasant aftertaste.

Only a specific region of under-extraction is sour (#3)...for most people this is 15-18% extraction. This seems to be where you are landing.

12-14% (#2) can be syrupy & sweet, but simple tasting.

You seem to be having trouble getting into the 'big hump' 18%+ (#4). Maybe you can still do this by pulling 1:2, or a shade longer ratio, at a fine grind?

If not, at least make something nice at a different extraction, even if that is lower than ideal (#2,12-14%EY, a short, fairly fast shot).

But for us to help, you need to focus on changing one parameter at a time & relay: Grind setting, ratio, time, flavour evaluation (how sour, likey/no likey, better/worse than previous).


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

damo said:


> I'm getting a little confused.
> 
> I always thought that sourness = under extraction
> 
> under-extracting even more would get rid of the sourness ?


 Nope..

People throw around under and over extraction when they have never measured extraction yield .

@mwjb post above , although less simple is closer to the reality of the situation .


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

Ok will try tomorrow to stick with the fine grind. even going a bit finer and extracting more

Either lowering the dose or increasing output ?

Thanks!


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

I know this is a bit left field, but is any coffee tasting ok?

edit: if no, noticed any other things tasting different?


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Very high acidity can also be a kind of a roast issue, I've had this with some filter beans where the higher you extract the more sharp acidity you would get. Do you have the chance to try with some other beans perhaps?


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

Hi folks, I know I'm a newbie to the forum and please feel free to shoot me down if I'm wrong - there are far more experienced people already helping on Damo's issue. I have a Mignon Specialita myself, and as a first inst wanted to find out if "0" was actually zero and burrs touching - it wasn't, with no beans loaded I edged the adjustment down fractionally until I got a "chirp" from the burrs, this was at -1.25 on the adjustment wheel.

Adjustment aside, I bought a bag of beans from a very well known roastery (not a member on here btw) and had nothing but sourness from them, I thought it was me and persevered - and burned through most of a bag trying unsuccessfully. Disheartened I bought different beans, dialled them in and bingo, great, balanced espresso again. Sometimes you need to change something other than the settings.

Sorry for rambling. Cheers, D.


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## GazRef (Dec 30, 2019)

wont brewing at higher temp help extraction. 92 sounds low for a medium dark. 94 it.

I found the rave signature good at 27s 20/40. Had mega issues with one of there dark blends though so binned over 0.5kg.


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

MWJB said:


> It's not linear. There aren't just 3 taste detectable states: sour, balanced, bitter (a most misleading & unhelpful myth) . It's more like:
> 
> 1. bitter/dirty/oily,
> 
> ...


 Interesting. If true (and I'm not disputing it), should this be a sticky? I've bookmarked this post for further experimentation


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

again, thanks for your help. Feedback after testing over the week-end.

@Deegee - good point. I need to check where burrs touch. I think it might also be slightly below 0

@GazRef after checking, it turns out setting I on Mara X is 93-94 so should be fine

I re-started from scratch with the Rave Blend an took a more scientific approach. i realised I was playing with too many different variables hoping it would turn out great. I'm more satisfied but probably not 100% yet

Step 1. empty grinder and start again.

Setting 1.1 on the specialita

18in / 41 out in 36s: acidic first, ok aftertaste
18in / 45 out in 38s: a bit more balanced but still sharp sour
18in/ 47 out in 40s: more balanced, citrusy, less aftertaste
18in / 51 out in 36s: acidic, disgusting (I suspect channelling)

moved the setting to grind finer at 1

18in/ 36 out in 31s: much more rounded and pleasant with some sharpness at the beginning
18in / 41 out in 36s: smooth, rich balanced and smoky
18 in/ 43 ou in 37s: same as above, a bit more acidity at first

So I think it is going in the right direction. I still sometimes have the odd citric acid taste at first but it is countered with a strong rich and smoky aftertaste which I like. I don't think I'm extracting the best out of the bean though. I might try going a tiny bit finer

I've got another bag coming so I'll be able to tell if it is a roast issue (probably not) and then I'm thinking of ordering something else with the same tasting notes. Any recommendation ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

An additional 2g in the cup might not be enough to make a significant difference, maybe look at intervals of more like 5g.


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## Dave double bean (Mar 31, 2020)

The acidic taste you find odd may be just you, and it may just not be a bean that suits you. I discovered something similar when I ordered Sweetshop from Square Mile, I realised the brighter beans weren't really my thing, I prefer a medium raosted less bright bean. Perhaps do what I did and order their Sweetshop and compare, at least you know its a nean designed to be bright and fruity, which is what you may be tasting rathe than sour.

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

I know I do not like the bright beans and that's why I buy dark-ish roasts. I was not expecting any brightness from the Rave Signature Blend

Also, I think I can make the difference between the pleasant brightness (from a light roast - not my taste) and the unpleasant one (bad extraction)

I'll try playing with bigger intervals but I do not want to end up with a watery soup by extracting too much. Is grinding finer the alternative?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

damo said:


> I'll try playing with bigger intervals but I do not want to end up with a watery soup by extracting too much. Is grinding finer the alternative?


 You seem to be enjoying 18:40 to 18:47?

Espresso has for most of it's history (and still widely today) pulled this long or longer.

Try going finer, but it seems a bit odd that your longer shots tip back into sourness again.

Why not try a few more at 18:41 as that seems your best result so far?


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

Yes will stick to that and see if I can find consistency


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## Dave double bean (Mar 31, 2020)

I had the same journey as you, eventually back to basics, kept same dose, made sure tye puck prep was solid using open portafilter and just went as fine as I could , seemed to work as I let time take care of itself. Only really nailed it though when I went to vst baskets

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk


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## mid_gen (Apr 6, 2020)

Deegee said:


> Hi folks, I know I'm a newbie to the forum and please feel free to shoot me down if I'm wrong - there are far more experienced people already helping on Damo's issue. I have a Mignon Specialita myself, and as a first inst wanted to find out if "0" was actually zero and burrs touching - it wasn't, with no beans loaded I edged the adjustment down fractionally until I got a "chirp" from the burrs, this was at -1.25 on the adjustment wheel.
> 
> Adjustment aside, I bought a bag of beans from a very well known roastery (not a member on here btw) and had nothing but sourness from them, I thought it was me and persevered - and burned through most of a bag trying unsuccessfully. Disheartened I bought different beans, dialled them in and bingo, great, balanced espresso again. Sometimes you need to change something other than the settings.
> 
> Sorry for rambling. Cheers, D.


 Second this. Zero on the dial isn't zero. For some beans like the rave Swiss Water decaf, I need to set mine to nearly -1 (4) on the dial.

I've been working on getting a good shot from the decaf, and found going finer on the grind and down to 14g took the edge off the sourness. I still haven't nailed it, but it's better!


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

Some of my shots take 45sec to reach 18:41 ratio. Taste is good and I know time is the least important variable but this seems very long, doesnt it ?


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## Dave double bean (Mar 31, 2020)

Yes but if it tastes great does it matter? How long is pre infusion in that 41?

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

maybe 10sec. I would need to double check that


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

Just an update

second bag arrived this week and I've opened it yesterday. Only thing I can say so far is that beans are quite different. Keeping the grinder at the same setting, 18in/41 out was much quicker than before but it seems like there is less unpleasant acidity

I have experimented to see where the burrs touch on the specialita and indeed, 0 is not the real Zero. For me it is -2 which means I have quite a bit of headroom to go finer if acidity is unpleasant


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## borez (Feb 23, 2020)

damo said:


> Some of my shots take 45sec to reach 18:41 ratio. Taste is good and I know time is the least important variable but this seems very long, doesnt it ?


 Believe you're using a MaraX (as I am), and can confirm that the pre-infusion times are long. If you monitor the pressure gauge, it preinfuses for almost 5 seconds, with another 5 seconds gradual pressure ramp up till first drop.

For me, my beans' sweet spot for a 18:36g shot is around 38 seconds.


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

Thanks @borez


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I listened to a podcast and he said 99% people under extract and dont even realise, may be worth pulling longer on purpose just to see.


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

In my limited experience the idea that you should always be aiming for 25 secs is daft. Maybe if you're some kind of Jedi master with great equipment that's where the most flavour is but most of my shots taste better at 35-40 seconds, and often a bit more than 2:1


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

https://timwendelboe.podbean.com/

Podcast 3 i think


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## damo (Sep 4, 2018)

Interesting podcast. I have to say that recently, I've really been getting there in terms of flavour, just had an absolutely delicious shot 18in/42 out in 42 sec (with bottomless so would have been longer with spouted PF). Load of caramel / chocolaty flavours and Amaretto aftertaste so pretty much exactly what is described by Rave. This shot made my day 

A few observations and maybe I would like your opinions on this ?

1-as coffee gets older, I seem to need to be grinding finer to reach the output in the same timeframe
2- I seem to be enjoying a coffee slightly older (this one has been roasted on 7th so 15 days ago. I think it is less acidic/bright than when I opened it at roast date + 8 days). Does coffee lose acidity after a few weeks or is it a function of me grinding a bit finer than previously ?
3-I seem to be enjoying it more in the afternoon (again less brightness / acidity). are my taste buds different after lunch ? is the machine significantly hotter (Machine goes on automatically at 7 and I make my first coffee 45mn later. The MaraX is supposed to be ready to go in 25mn)


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

I don't know about the afternoon bit but the rest definitely matches with my experience.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

damo said:


> Interesting podcast. I have to say that recently, I've really been getting there in terms of flavour, just had an absolutely delicious shot 18in/42 out in 42 sec (with bottomless so would have been longer with spouted PF). Load of caramel / chocolaty flavours and Amaretto aftertaste so pretty much exactly what is described by Rave. This shot made my day
> 
> A few observations and maybe I would like your opinions on this ?
> 
> ...


 1. Yes this is par for the course.

2.Same here , for espresso i leave my coffee 14 days before use. Not sure it's acidity that it's losing in this time frame , it's resting , degassing, Ill link a video below to watch.

3. Could be mood, your more awake , is your first coffee aster brushing your teeth ....lots of things

https://europeancoffeetrip.com/barista-guide-coffee-freshness/


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## borez (Feb 23, 2020)

damo said:


> Interesting podcast. I have to say that recently, I've really been getting there in terms of flavour, just had an absolutely delicious shot 18in/42 out in 42 sec (with bottomless so would have been longer with spouted PF). Load of caramel / chocolaty flavours and Amaretto aftertaste so pretty much exactly what is described by Rave. This shot made my day
> 
> A few observations and maybe I would like your opinions on this ?
> 
> ...


 Thanks. Echo with your thoughts. On 2), part of this seems to be coming from built-up gases from freshly roasted beans. Am using 1 day fresh beans, and my shots run fast w/ a frothy crema.

Also, I realised it's more important to inspect the crema, in gauging shot cutoff, rather than a fixed time. My shots are brighter and more well balanced when I run beyond the 38-39second mark, for a 18g dose. Might be worth it to do the "rule of thirds" experiment.

Learning new things as I go along...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

borez said:


> Might be worth it to do the "rule of thirds" experiment.
> 
> Learning new things as I go along...


 There's no "rule of thirds". If you take an under-extracted shot & split it into 3 you have 3 different tasting prts of an under-extracted shot. Save time & grind finer &/or pull more mass out to bring up extraction, which you can only really evaluate by tasting the whole shot.

When you do this, then break down a shot into sections, you'll find the last part tastes dull, weak & bitter...not something you'd think you would deliberately want in the shot in itself, but it is necessary.


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## JamesMac (Apr 7, 2020)

GazRef said:


> wont brewing at higher temp help extraction. 92 sounds low for a medium dark. 94 it.
> 
> I found the rave signature good at 27s 20/40. Had mega issues with one of there dark blends though so binned over 0.5kg.


 I've just upped by dose from 18g to 40g for a stronger coffee and my extraction time jumped from 29 seconds or so to 50 on this mornings cup. Going to have to go heck of a lot courser I think to get back down to 30 seconds. Have you always dosed 20g?


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## borez (Feb 23, 2020)

MWJB said:


> There's no "rule of thirds". If you take an under-extracted shot & split it into 3 you have 3 different tasting prts of an under-extracted shot. Save time & grind finer &/or pull more mass out to bring up extraction, which you can only really evaluate by tasting the whole shot.
> 
> When you do this, then break down a shot into sections, you'll find the last part tastes dull, weak & bitter...not something you'd think you would deliberately want in the shot in itself, but it is necessary.


 Thanks for the clarification. Given so, how would you decide on the cutoff timing (visual inspection of the crema)?

Till now, dialing in is more of a art rather than a science. This is despite having read numerous guides on the Internet.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

borez said:


> Thanks for the clarification. Given so, how would you decide on the cutoff timing (visual inspection of the crema)?
> 
> Till now, dialing in is more of a art rather than a science. This is despite having read numerous guides on the Internet.


 Cur off to achieve target weight in the cup, taste & adjust grind based on what you taste, & repeat. Keep a note of time, just in case you get some crazy way out times that might be indicative of poor prep.

The colour in coffee extracts much quicker than the flavour, so colour is not a reliable way to indicate when to kill a shot.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

borez said:


> Thanks for the clarification. Given so, how would you decide on the cutoff timing (visual inspection of the crema)?
> 
> Till now, dialing in is more of a art rather than a science. This is despite having read numerous guides on the Internet.


 Dont stop a shot by colour, its unreliable as to ho a coffee is extracting and can vary greatly depending on roast level and origin ( as can crema , which is again why judging stopping a shot of crema colour can not be reliable )

Follow the advice above from MWJB


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## borez (Feb 23, 2020)

Mrboots2u said:


> Dont stop a shot by colour, its unreliable as to ho a coffee is extracting and can vary greatly depending on roast level and origin ( as can crema , which is again why judging stopping a shot of crema colour can not be reliable )
> 
> Follow the advice above from MWJB


 Thanks all! Appreciate the advice.


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