# Is the Niche any good for filter coffee?



## whinmoor85 (Jul 4, 2013)

I've upgraded from the Baratza Encore to a Niche and honestly the filter coffee I'm making doesn't seem any better.

Am I doing it wrong or am I expecting too much going from one conical grinder to another?

I've read that the Mazzer Kony burrs used in the Niche are designed for espresso (and it's clearly an upgrade from the Encore in that case).

Not saying that the brews I make are bad but they're just not as good as I think they could be. Would I benefit from a second flat burr grinder for filter coffee? Am I blaming the tools I have rather than improving my technique?

Any help appreciated!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I wouldn't expect night & day going from one conical, or to most flats to another.

Encores use Etzinger burrs which are espresso capable too. (Earlier versions used Italmill which are also found in grinders used for espresso).

Which flat burr grinder are you considering?

If your grinder functions (at least as well as a Porlex/Hario), it's mostly the method.

Of course, if you have extremely high expectations and are comparing to grinders costing 4-6x the Niche, that is possible... but then I'd be asking why you bought a Niche?


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## whinmoor85 (Jul 4, 2013)

I bought a Niche because I wanted a better grinder to make espresso with the Flair. It says on the Niche website that it's suitable for all types of coffee so I figured it would be an upgrade on the Encore.

What grinders am I considering? Vario maybe? Open to suggestions.

I was thinking a Commandante hand grinder but you've confirmed that swapping one set of conicals to another won't improve the cup unless my methods change.

Are you saying that only an upgrade to an 'end game' grinder like the EK43 or Monolith etc would deliver the change I'm seeking in grinders?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@whinmoor85 How many kilos have you put through the Niche? The unknown quantity in all of this, is you and your taste buds......plenty of experienced Niche users on here swear by them for both brewed and espresso!


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## whinmoor85 (Jul 4, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> @whinmoor85 How many kilos have you put through the Niche? The unknown quantity in all of this, is you and your taste buds......plenty of experienced Niche users on here swear by them for both brewed and espresso!


 2.5kg maybe? I go through 250g every two weeks and I've had it for 5 months approximately.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

whinmoor85 said:


> I bought a Niche because I wanted a better grinder to make espresso with the Flair. It says on the Niche website that it's suitable for all types of coffee so I figured it would be an upgrade on the Encore.
> 
> What grinders am I considering? Vario maybe? Open to suggestions.
> 
> ...


 I'm certainly not suggesting you need an EK-43 or a Monolith. I don't know what an "end game" grinder is, the game is always changing. But if you want one & can afford it buy one.

You haven't yet told us what your method is. Assuming you like well made coffee from typical (a wide range) grinders, this is the first place I'd be looking.

For a Clever I tend to brew 2 ways:

~1:15, fine grind (~33 on Niche), 2/3 water in first, then coffee, remaining water to wet the coffee (a regular kettle is best), cover on and leave as long as you can before too cool to enjoy (20-25min for smaller brews, 30-40min for big brews). Preheat your cup/server, some people wrap the brewer in a towel to insulate. Don't clank the brewer in bid to get last drips out at end of brew, this will make the cup bitter/silty.

Or, coarser grind (around one full turn on Niche) 1:11, or stronger, 20g dose minimum, water in first, in with coffee, wet at surface (not a full on stir). Sink crust 15s before draw down, short brew time, 1 to 2min depending on result. Too weak/bland grind finer/steep longer. Too bitter/muddy/sour - grind coarser/steep shorter.

Different result for each, long brews have better clarity & complexity. Short brews are simpler tasting with very low bitterness (also less frustrating when dialing in & you need to make another if things don't pan out).

No grinder can predict the grind size & steep time you need to get a good result, you have to dial them all in, by the same process.


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## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

I got fed up of my ROK so I use my niche for Moka Pot, Clever and Pour Over.

With help/ advice from @MWJB along the way I now go from ~32 all the way to ~83 depending on method.

I think if you're switching grind size across a broad range then a puffer is a good idea, but the Niche certainly isn't the weak link in my experience - it's my technique!


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

whinmoor85 said:


> What grinders am I considering? Vario maybe? Open to suggestions.
> 
> I was thinking a Commandante hand grinder but you've confirmed that swapping one set of conicals to another won't improve the cup unless my methods change.


 Vario or Forte BG with steel burrs (not ceramic), both are great options for filter coffee.

Soon there will be improved Vario +, with a lot of components from Forte - https://baratza.com/grinder/vario-w-plus/

C40 is also great for filter coffee. It is conical, but pretty unique geometry, still one of the best in class for filter coffee.

Niche is great single dosing espresso grinder, that can also grind coarse enough for filter coffee. Hard to beat this combination, but if you are only looking to do brews, there are a lot of better choices.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

pj.walczak said:


> C40 is also great for filter coffee. It is conical, but pretty unique geometry, still one of the best in class for filter coffee.


 In what respect & how does it achieve this?


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

I attach the picture of the burrs of MK3.

You can compare with Mazzer 191C, which was designed as espresso burr set.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The picture doesn't tell us much beyond they look like burrs available for existing espresso grinders (though they may not be exactly the same). I asked what they did, not what they look like.

The red clix espresso kit doesn't seem to need any other burrs, so what makes you think they are not an espresso capable burr set?


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

MWJB said:


> may not be exactly the same


 Correct. And it makes a difference.

C40 mk3 geometry results in a burrs that are very easy to grind (low force required to turn) but very slow. For whatever reason, this kind of characteristic gives you better results in cup for filter coffee. (and there are a lot of examples of the market for dedicated brew burr sets, most of them are slower then espresso dedicated sets at the same size).

The easiest to feel the difference is if you compare C40 mk3 and 1zpresso JE with classic Italmill burrs. C40 is much easier to us, less force and it grinds much longer. JE is the opposite, harder to turn, much faster.

In the cup, with JE or Niche it is much easier to feel over extracted taste, which you compensate usually by lowering the brew temp or grinding coarser. C40mk3 in the cup is much closer to what you can taste from brew dedicated flat burrs. It is not classic EK43 taste, but much closer to it then Niche.

RedClix - yes it can grind fine enough for espresso if you have enough time. Some people were /are using it for espresso. A lot of people switched to different grinders for espresso and continue to use C40 for filter coffee.

Again there is nothing new in different burrs geometry for espresso and filter coffee. Look at SSP burrs, with 98 mm variants being extreme example, etzZinger have now 4 burr sets all in the same size, Kinu added a dedicated brew burr set to its line, Baratza, Caedo, etc.


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## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

I have a Niche, JX and C40. I use the Niche for espresso (or grinding 30g for Clever), C40 for single cup V60, and the JX for French press at work. For the coarseness I like to brew pourover it is a pain to be adjusting the Niche and dealing with the chaff bombs. I did some blind testing between the C40 and JX for pourover, C40 was preferred hands down. Burr geometry and finishing are completely different between the C40 and JX - C40 is an easier and slower grind and gives more leeway to play with sweetness/bitterness balance than the JX.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

pj.walczak said:


> Correct. And it makes a difference.
> 
> C40 mk3 geometry results in a burrs that are very easy to grind (low force required to turn) but very slow. For whatever reason, this kind of characteristic gives you better results in cup for filter coffee. (and there are a lot of examples of the market for dedicated brew burr sets, most of them are slower then espresso dedicated sets at the same size).
> 
> ...


 So the question still remains how are they achieving this?

EK-43 and some other flat burr grinders (Vario/Forte with Ditting burrs) are shown to have very tight distributions.

The conical hand grinders and flat like the Wilfa, have average distributions.

I did used to suspect there was something in the slow, nibbling, grind compared to a burr (whatever size/shape) that smashed beans, but the OE Apex with ghost (or crushing, as they were known for years) burrs also has a tight distribution.

Over-extracted tastes are only over-extracted tastes if you're over-extracting. Over-extraction is usually the rarest malfunction compared to under-extracting and it's easily fixed, even with boiling brew water. There are ways to make bitter flavours in coffee without over-extracting, silt in the cup being the most obvious.

The JX Pro I tried (not Italmill burrs) had the least resistance of any hand grinder I have used.


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## whinmoor85 (Jul 4, 2013)

pj.walczak said:


> Correct. And it makes a difference.
> 
> C40 mk3 geometry results in a burrs that are very easy to grind (low force required to turn) but very slow. For whatever reason, this kind of characteristic gives you better results in cup for filter coffee. (and there are a lot of examples of the market for dedicated brew burr sets, most of them are slower then espresso dedicated sets at the same size).
> 
> ...


 I've read that the Comandante produces ground similar to the EK43 - does it produce less fines than most espresso grinders?


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## whinmoor85 (Jul 4, 2013)

MWJB said:


> I'm certainly not suggesting you need an EK-43 or a Monolith. I don't know what an "end game" grinder is, the game is always changing. But if you want one & can afford it buy one.
> 
> You haven't yet told us what your method is. Assuming you like well made coffee from typical (a wide range) grinders, this is the first place I'd be looking.
> 
> ...


 I need to pick your brains when it comes to the Clever! 😁

So for your first method (fine grind with 1:15) - why do you brew for so long? I would expect that a fine grind produces more surface area for the coffee therefore less time to steep with the water?

Similarly with the second method, wouldn't you want to brew for longer if you produce a smaller surface area with coarse ground coffee? Also what grind size on the Niche are you suggesting - one full turn from where?

Sorry if these questions are obvious I've just never seen these recommendations before, although I look forward to trying them out.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

whinmoor85 said:


> So for your first method (fine grind with 1:15) - why do you brew for so long? I would expect that a fine grind produces more surface area for the coffee therefore less time to steep with the water?


 Declining temperature steeps err towards under/low extraction, grinding fine is the only way to get in the normal range. Because the water & coffee just sit together, extraction is slow. You'd need a coarser grind for pour over because the flow provides a more dynamic brewing environment, rinsing out the solubles with replenishing, hot, clean water, hence a coarser grind needed to not over-extract, or channel catastrophically.

For the 2nd method I am deliberately aiming to under-extract, but to a point below typical poor/low extractions (15-18% using drip formula extraction yield), where the coffee starts to taste like it should (about 12-13% EY), albeit with a simpler profile/less complexity, before sourness & generic dryness set in. Only grind finer/steep longer if the coffee is weak/bland. Both sourness (as opposed to brightness) and dryness will mean you are too fine.

One full turn from marked "0" on the dial (about 9:30 if a clock face...I haven't done many of the short brews with the Niche so this is a guesstimate).

I wouldn't think in terms of surface area.

You grind fine in a steep where the temp is dropping quickly, because grinding coarser will only ever under-extract. You can grind coarser for insulated steeps, but still only in a similar region as you could for pour over. In fact, I tend to grind coarsest for pour over, the idea of steeps needing to be coarse was known to be untrue 70yrs ago (but of course, you can do what you want if you like the result).


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

whinmoor85 said:


> I've read that the Comandante produces ground similar to the EK43 - does it produce less fines than most espresso grinders?


 I don't think this is true, the comandante produces more fines than the ek43 from what I've read as one been considering the comandante for filter as it seems so popular for filter.

I think it's popular because it's relatively cheap (compared to electric) and gives fairly uniform grind distribution. What's putting me off is the adjustment mechanism, the counting clicks. If you forget what you're set to or count your clicks wrong you have to go back to 1 and work back.


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## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

newdent said:


> I don't think this is true, the comandante produces more fines than the ek43 from what I've read as one been considering the comandante for filter as it seems so popular for filter.
> 
> I think it's popular because it's relatively cheap (compared to electric) and gives fairly uniform grind distribution. What's putting me off is the adjustment mechanism, the counting clicks. If you forget what you're set to or count your clicks wrong you have to go back to 1 and work back.


 Counting isn't really a problem unless you regularly close to zero point or take out the burr - for me it has been a case of set and forget. Otherwise it's the usual calculation of taking the grind finer or coarser. If you use the same brew method and dose size then it will just be fine tuning along with the beans.


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

whinmoor85 said:


> I've read that the Comandante produces ground similar to the EK43 - does it produce less fines than most espresso grinders?


 There were some diagrams on the Socratic Coffee Instagram. It is Instagram, so if you have time you will find them, I am not a fan of the platform .

But, from memory it wasn't very close to Ek43 from particles distribution point of view, but more uniform than classic espresso conical burr.

In general, C40 mk3 gives you very good quality in the cup for filter coffee. Most of the users will confirm this. Is it worth buying if you already have Niche? I am personally big fan of having two dedicated grinders even if you take only ergonomics into consideration.



MWJB said:


> So the question still remains how are they achieving this?


 I really do not know. They might be lucky and the burr set just works very well for filter coffee. Or they spend a lot of time analyzing different geometries and what is possible with conical. The change between mk2 and mk3 was huge.


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## whinmoor85 (Jul 4, 2013)

pj.walczak said:


> There were some diagrams on the Socratic Coffee Instagram. It is Instagram, so if you have time you will find them, I am not a fan of the platform .
> 
> But, from memory it wasn't very close to Ek43 from particles distribution point of view, but more uniform than classic espresso conical burr.
> 
> ...


 On this video (at 2:49) the owner of Comandante said he spend €100K on a particle analyser.


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

whinmoor85 said:


> he spend €100K on a particle analyser.


 thanks! Didn't know.


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## whinmoor85 (Jul 4, 2013)

MWJB said:


> I'm certainly not suggesting you need an EK-43 or a Monolith. I don't know what an "end game" grinder is, the game is always changing. But if you want one & can afford it buy one.
> 
> You haven't yet told us what your method is. Assuming you like well made coffee from typical (a wide range) grinders, this is the first place I'd be looking.
> 
> ...


 I gave the fine grind long steep method a go although I steeped for 15mins with 15g of coffee, the coffee was nice and full flavoured, I think I've been grinding way too coarse generally. My only criticism is that the coffee was a bit too cool in the cup.

I gave it another go with a shorter steep and honestly I couldn't taste much difference between the longer steep.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

whinmoor85 said:


> I gave the fine grind long steep method a go although I steeped for 15mins with 15g of coffee, the coffee was nice and full flavoured, I think I've been grinding way too coarse generally. My only criticism is that the coffee was a bit too cool in the cup.
> 
> I gave it another go with a shorter steep and honestly I couldn't taste much difference between the longer steep.


 I do 20-25min with 225g water, with a preheated cup, it's fine temp wise (preheated cup), but I like 50-53c coffee. Bigger brews can go longer. But, sure, you're always going to get coffee on the cooler side without insulation.

Probably not a significant difference from 10-15min.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@whinmoor85 wrap towels around the clever!


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## whinmoor85 (Jul 4, 2013)

MWJB said:


> I do 20-25min with 225g water, with a preheated cup, it's fine temp wise (preheated cup), but I like 50-53c coffee. Bigger brews can go longer. But, sure, you're always going to get coffee on the cooler side without insulation.
> 
> Probably not a significant difference from 10-15min.


 I'll try it with a pre-heated cup next time.


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## whinmoor85 (Jul 4, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> @whinmoor85 wrap towels around the clever!


 I could do that but I also don't want to over complicate the process either, I can guarantee I'll topple the Clever if I wrapped it 🤦‍♂️


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## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

whinmoor85 said:


> I could do that but I also don't want to over complicate the process either, I can guarantee I'll topple the Clever if I wrapped it 🤦‍♂️


 Another thing to watch out for with this method is the covering drinking the brew through capillary action!


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