# Long term reviews of Flair or cafelat?



## Morningfuel

I'm approaching (rather too fast for my liking) my 30th birthday and, now I have a fairly good grinder, I am considering dipping into espresso again.

The flair has piqued my interest on a few levels:

- the Neo in white is quite attractive. Having a pressurised basket isn't a terrible idea at this stage to get me into good practice in terms of work flow.

-the signature in white is extremely attractive and has passed the fiancée test. This does not have a pressurised basket - is this available separately just in case?

- the signature also has a pressure gauge which I like a lot.

- I use a mbk aergrind which, I believe, with a darker roast a la coffee compass or rave blends, would probably be okay with a non-pressurised portafilter.

- I don't enjoy light roast espresso *for the most part*. I have had a glorious Ethiopian from Hot Numbers once but most others I find mouth-puckeringly acidic despite underlying fruit sweetness.

- light roasts will always be French press or V60.

- while I do love steamed milky drinks I don't have worktop space for a machine and a grinder. The cafelat and flair are both rather diddy!

- I could consider a small footprint (smaller than a gaggia classic!) machine, but it would need to be quiet and with good temp management. I don't believe this is on the market for a price I can afford.

- I don't mind faff. I work from home and enjoy coffee as a hobby. I miss my gaggia but it is definitely not ideal for me.

Does anyone have any advice regarding which model I should get? Should I get a cafelat robot for slightly easier work flow? It's more expensive though. If I got the neo I'd also get the stainless tamper as an extra so that sort of makes it a bit more expensive.

Apologies if I'm covering something that has been done a million times before.


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## matted

There are a few comparisons of the two.

https://coffeechronicler.com/cafelat-robot-review/

Hoffman's reviews also.

The flair appears to be considered as slightly more challenging on workflow, there are lots of parts and thermal aspects.

The robot (which I like also) seems to address these better from what I have seen.

In terms of long term owners there is a near 300 page thread on home-barista.

Disclaimer: I am on the verge of ordering a robot so probably biased towards it presently. Can't decide between white green blue or red. Also if better to order from HK and maybe strike lucky with no or less tax.


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## Morningfuel

matted said:


> There are a few comparisons of the two.
> 
> https://coffeechronicler.com/cafelat-robot-review/
> 
> Hoffman's reviews also.
> 
> The flair appears to be considered as slightly more challenging on workflow, there are lots of parts and thermal aspects.
> 
> The robot (which I like also) seems to address these better from what I have seen.
> 
> In terms of long term owners there is a near 300 page thread on home-barista.
> 
> Disclaimer: I am on the verge of ordering a robot so probably biased towards it presently. Can't decide between white green blue or red. Also if better to order from HK and maybe strike lucky with no or less tax.


 Thanks for responding, that's really helpful!

Honestly can't find where to get a cafelat, seems distribution is not something that company presently cares for - I suppose they are a young business.

Thermal management seems fine on both to me - one needs a pre-soak (which I draw an equivalence to a V60, which needs a hot water rinse) and the other doesn't need any, which is nicer.

I actually prefer the cafelat in terms of work flow slightly from James Hoffman's reviews, but the flair is cheaper and (subjectively) a bit nicer looking with the copper accent.

I'll see if I can find that epic 300 page thread! Any idea whether an aergrind with darker roasts would be suitable for non-pressurised baskets?


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## matted

Grinder will be fine I would expect.

I have a feld2 and would expect the same. I have used the feld2 for espresso no problems.

https://www.home-barista.com/levers/cafelat-robot-user-experience-t54550.html

Buying

From

https://www.cafelatstore.com/

Or

https://coffee24.de/

.


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## matted

Also

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/41258-cafelat-robot/#comments


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## Stanic

Morningfuel said:


> Thanks for responding, that's really helpful!
> 
> Honestly can't find where to get a cafelat, seems distribution is not something that company presently cares for - I suppose they are a young business.
> 
> Thermal management seems fine on both to me - one needs a pre-soak (which I draw an equivalence to a V60, which needs a hot water rinse) and the other doesn't need any, which is nicer.
> 
> I actually prefer the cafelat in terms of work flow slightly from James Hoffman's reviews, but the flair is cheaper and (subjectively) a bit nicer looking with the copper accent.
> 
> I'll see if I can find that epic 300 page thread! Any idea whether an aergrind with darker roasts would be suitable for non-pressurised baskets?


 The Aergrind is, based on my experience, capable with almost any roast (except that light Nicaragua from hasbean 😛 )

Cafelat is basically a one man band but well established and reliable, run by Paul Pratt who is a rather experienced bloke in the coffee world. I don't know why he only sells it from his own website but probably wanted to keep the price lower? Or the demand is too high? Judging by his Instagram he still finishes the Robots individually by hand in his workshop, it seems.


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## Colinc

I bought a Cafelat about 2 months ago after lots of agonising on what to get. Couldn't justify an expensive machine so settled on a lever. Cafelat Initially seemed expensive, for what it is, but slightly less than the traditional lever machines. What sealed it for me was the simplicity and the fact you only have to wait for the kettle to boil instead of heating a boiler.

So far I'm over the moon and honestly cant see me upgrading. Not had a bad shot yet and its transformed my coffee drinking experience. Previously i had been a cappuccino junky and was worried about the lack of milk frothing. Espresso used to be something just to give me a boost but now am really loving the various tastes and hardly drink milky coffees anymore. Hadn't realised how bad the Costas of this world were!

Fully recommend them!


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## matted

Stanic said:


> The Aergrind is, based on my experience, capable with almost any roast (except that light Nicaragua from hasbean 😛 )
> 
> Cafelat is basically a one man band but well established and reliable, run by Paul Pratt who is a rather experienced bloke in the coffee world. I don't know why he only sells it from his own website but probably wanted to keep the price lower? Or the demand is too high? Judging by his Instagram he still finishes the Robots individually by hand in his workshop, it seems.


 This is also another great reason to buy a robot in my view. It is an engineer, hand built labour of love.


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## Stevebee

I've had both. Sold the Flair and still have, and use, the Robot. Workflow, especially for more than one coffee, much better on the Robot. I much preferred the taste from the Robot as well and is a very solid, well engineered piece of kit. The Flair is also well put together it just more fiddly to use. The two arms are easier to smoothly control pressure for me as well.


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## matted

Stevebee said:


> I've had both. Sold the Flair and still have, and use, the Robot. Workflow, especially for more than one coffee, much better on the Robot. I much preferred the taste from the Robot as well and is a very solid, well engineered piece of kit. The Flair is also well put together it just more fiddly to use. The two arms are easier to smoothly control pressure for me as well.


 Useful to read, found I was looking at flairs again after a couple of years and with the neo out (not for me, but interesting to see the product and reviews)


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## Morningfuel

Sounds like the cafelat might make for a better long term buy, so that's what I'll go for  thanks all!


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## Morningfuel

Having done more research, the flair is probably still my preference for looks but the faff in pre-heating is less than ideal, and would probably annoy me slightly.

It's still a bit of a tie though. The flair is a fair bit cheaper, beautiful looking and looks like it produces great coffee. I seem to see more people go from flair to robot than vice-versa though, and that tallies with the easier thermal management and cleanup.


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## Mike B

I also agonized for a while on this and ended up going for the flair Pro. I absolutely love it. I also have an HX machine and a couple of la Pavonis so I have some comparison. The workflow is fine once you get your system. I have a stovetop kettle with holes in the top (from coffee gator) and steam the brew chamber while getting everything else ready. By the time I'm ready to go the brew chamber is very hot - use a cloth to pick it up and transfer to the flair. I then pour in my boiling water and wait a few seconds til I hit my desired temp. I can measure this using a cheap meat thermometer or just estimate it pretty closely from experience. The shots are best pulled a little longer than other espresso machines and tend to bring out the fruitier side of coffees in comparison to my HX and la Pavonis. I've never used the robot so I can't compare the two but my thinking is that the very heavy and solid brew chamber holds the heat better throughout the shot than the thinner robot chamber. Also there is a very active FB flair group although no doubt this is the same for the robot. Either machine would work well with the aergrind I'm sure. I was pairing my flair with my aergrind for much of lockdown as I didn't have my kinu grinder with me.


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## Stevebee

The grind needed on the Flair is 4 or 5 marks coarser on the Niche than the one on the Robot. The Robot grind is virtually the same as the one I use for the Londinium 1. This probably has an impact on taste. Can't say I found the heft of the Flair brewing chamber better than the Robot tbh, probably the other way. The Flair is beautiful though and as I've I said before both can produce excellent espresso. If I haven't fired up either of my machines in the morning (should get a Wemo) I don't feel as though I'm comprising on taste when Robbie comes out.


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## matted

Ordered a red Robot 🙂 now for the 3 to 4 week wait...


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## a_aa

matted said:


> now for the 3 to 4 week wait...


 You're not waiting in vain  I actually waited 2 long months for my red Robot (the colour hadn't been launched at time I ordered it) to arrive, and after having it around for a month now, sipping shots, I'm simply a fan of the thing


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## matted

a_aa said:


> You're not waiting in vain  I actually waited 2 long months for my red Robot (the colour hadn't been launched at time I ordered it) to arrive, and after having it around for a month now, sipping shots, I'm simply a fan of the thing


 Red No1?

Get some pics up 😉


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## a_aa

matted said:


> Get some pics up 😉


 Sorry, not been taking much pics of it, actually. But I did put an unboxing pic in the postie-thread: https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/9978-what-did-the-postie-bring-you-today/?do=findComment&comment=776990 

I also made 45 seconds of extraction porn with my old mobile phone a week ago, mainly because I want to learn how to determine when to end the shot by colour and shape, instead of counting seconds and grams. I'm going to end them earlier, I think. In the last 6-7 seconds of my shot, the "cone" had completely collapsed, and the colour was light and translucent. Dilutes more than adding new flavour. The shot was tasting good, though, a natural Ethiopian  Anyway, the clip is to big to upload here, so here's a snap from 18 seconds into it:


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## Morningfuel

a_aa said:


> Sorry, not been taking much pics of it, actually. But I did put an unboxing pic in the postie-thread: https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/9978-what-did-the-postie-bring-you-today/?do=findComment&comment=776990
> 
> I also made 45 seconds of extraction porn with my old mobile phone a week ago, mainly because I want to learn how to determine when to end the shot by colour and shape, instead of counting seconds and grams. I'm going to end them earlier, I think. In the last 6-7 seconds of my shot, the "cone" had completely collapsed, and the colour was light and translucent. Dilutes more than adding new flavour. The shot was tasting good, though, a natural Ethiopian  Anyway, the clip is to big to upload here, so here's a snap from 18 seconds into it:
> 
> View attachment 46734


 There might still be good stuff coming out at the point it's less concentrated - worth watching James Hoffman's vid on why modern espresso is ugly


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## Morningfuel

matted said:


> Ordered a red Robot 🙂 now for the 3 to 4 week wait...


 Happy stuff! Would you mind letting me know the "landed in the UK" cost? I'm going for a barista version for the pressure gauge... But won't be able to order until payday. Interested to know whether it's October payday or November payday I need to wait for!


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## matted

Morningfuel said:


> Happy stuff! Would you mind letting me know the "landed in the UK" cost? I'm going for a barista version for the pressure gauge... But won't be able to order until payday. Interested to know whether it's October payday or November payday I need to wait for!


 sure.

costwise - I ordered a few extras after dropping an email to Paul Pratt at Cafelat, which he quickly responded to. extra screen, 2 x seals, extra papers, robot hands. He did recommend the new tamper too, but more than I wanted to spend.

Paying - i used a fee free card to pay in dollars. Made a 20 quid saving doing it this way rather than allowing paypal to do the currency exchange. I am assuming that VAT and some customs charges (perhaps 2.7% based on EU regs) will be due on the machine and accessories (link) Shipped via fedex std.

ps I did order red, but have switched to green, after an intervention from my daughter.


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## Morningfuel

I asked if they still had any yellows in, but alas, no luck. I've settled on blue... But it's out of stock.

Could be some time before I get my robot


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## matted

Morningfuel said:


> Happy stuff! Would you mind letting me know the "landed in the UK" cost? I'm going for a barista version for the pressure gauge... But won't be able to order until payday. Interested to know whether it's October payday or November payday I need to wait for!


 Hi, my FedEx parcel dues today. Just got a text from FedEx which points to an estimated charge of 31 pounds to pay.


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## Morningfuel

matted said:


> Hi, my FedEx parcel dues today. Just got a text from FedEx which points to an estimated charge of 31 pounds to pay.


 Thanks for letting me know. That pushes the landed cost a fair bit above the flair Pro 2, which also looks rather excellent but requires a bit more thermal management - I can steam it on top of my kettle as an initial preheat though, so I may now lean toward that.

When it arrives, if you're based near me we can have a comparison of the two.


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## matted

Morningfuel said:


> Thanks for letting me know. That pushes the landed cost a fair bit above the flair Pro 2, which also looks rather excellent but requires a bit more thermal management - I can steam it on top of my kettle as an initial preheat though, so I may now lean toward that.
> 
> When it arrives, if you're based near me we can have a comparison of the two.


 i make it about 50 quid or so more expensive. I ordered the barista version, plus a few spares too. (hands, two extra seals, extra filter papers, extra screen) so the customs charge should reflect those extra items too.

presently tier 3 and my work puts me in CV19 harms way presently, so a meet up not possible, but happy to compare notes!

did you see this back to back video from an AUS supplier?


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## Mike B

I know I've already chimed in already saying basically the same thing, but I feel inclined to reiterate as I think I'm one of the few flair users on this forum: Preheating on the kettle is really effective and easy - I use a cheapo coffee gator one for this and it works perfectly due to the holes in the lid. I then use a meat thermometer to check the temp. I can easily achieve starting temps of 96 degrees like this if I want to. Work flow is easy enough once you get it dialed. However i must admit that I use a rocket r58 for my morning coffee


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## Morningfuel

Mike B said:


> I know I've already chimed in already saying basically the same thing, but I feel inclined to reiterate as I think I'm one of the few flair users on this forum: Preheating on the kettle is really effective and easy - I use a cheapo coffee gator one for this and it works perfectly due to the holes in the lid. I then use a meat thermometer to check the temp. I can easily achieve starting temps of 96 degrees like this if I want to. Work flow is easy enough once you get it dialed. However i must admit that I use a rocket r58 for my morning coffee


 Yeah, this is what I'm thinking. The taller basket may be a hair more forgiving on grind, but it might just be splitting hairs. I think both use baskets made by the same folks as VST so they're all quality bits.

I love how both look, and both fit nicely under the counter top. My scales might fit better under the robot than the flair (as they're a bit long - about 15cm, but very narrow) but even that I think doesn't impact what I'll go for.

I wish the robot was easier to get hold of, but it's a very small operation so obvious as to why it's not. I'd go the barista version and would expect it to be £400 landed i think with extra seals. The flair would be £315 with seals.


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## Morningfuel

> 13 hours ago, matted said:
> 
> i make it about 50 quid or so more expensive. I ordered the barista version, plus a few spares too. (hands, two extra seals, extra filter papers, extra screen) so the customs charge should reflect those extra items too.
> 
> presently tier 3 and my work puts me in CV19 harms way presently, so a meet up not possible, but happy to compare notes!
> 
> did you see this back to back video from an AUS supplier?


 Yeah it is a useful video (cringe at "smash that like button".

I calculated landed cost of a barista pro, 57 usd shipping to be £440 after vat... That's a big upcharge against the flair (£314 including set of seals, £360 with a second portafilter).

I'm not sure I'd want to take the risk of being stung that much.


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## Mike B

I ordered mine from the French maxi coffee site. Someone had tried it out once and sent it back and i then snapped it up from them for 150 euros! That made my decision between the flair Pro and the Robot a no brainer. Now I'm thinking that I really need a 9barista... 😉

PS - they do have these offers occasionally so might be worth checking their site while you're considering and pounce if you see someone. However I think they only send these 'seconds' to France.


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## matted

Morningfuel said:


> Yeah it is a useful video (cringe at "smash that like button".
> 
> I calculated landed cost of a barista pro, 57 usd shipping to be £440 after vat... That's a big upcharge against the flair (£314 including set of seals, £360 with a second portafilter).
> 
> I'm not sure I'd want to take the risk of being stung that much.


 My robot was 400 delivered Inc the spares and extras i ordered


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## matted

Morningfuel said:


> I'm not sure I'd want to take the risk of being stung that much.


 Sorry I don't understand the being stung bit? You think you'll get ripped off by cafelat? I don't think that is a risk at all.


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## Morningfuel

matted said:


> Sorry I don't understand the being stung bit? You think you'll get ripped off by cafelat? I don't think that is a risk at all.


 I used an online calculator to calculate usd 370 + usd 57 shipping, plus duty and fees and VAT. Not cafelat, just importing - cafelat charge the price for the product, so that's not a problem.

It's interesting yours is so much cheaper, perhaps I did something wrong... £400 would be doable.


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## matted

I am not trying to pressure sell you. Lol.

I think the cost could have been higher. The importing costs are a bit of a wild card / feel uncertain or could change.

Choose the machine you want in the end as you might regret it.


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## NikC

I went through the same process of flair Vs robot. Ease of use and possibility of no pre-heating swayed me to a cream robot. I bought through the German website. So no import taxes and 16 euro shipping. When buying their euro price was convertible to pounds, so there were no surprises on what it would cost. Process was pretty smooth, although I had to wait 3 weeks or so before it arrived, despite the website saying it was available immediately. I bought the version without the pressure gauge so some learning to do, but it's very enjoyable and easy to use.


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## Morningfuel

Managed to snag a blue/green (hard to tell from photos) robot with pressure gauge in classifieds.


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## Mike B

@MorningfuelResult! Congrats


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## igor_xxxx

I finally ordered the red barista version from Cafelatstore, so hope it will be worth it, considering I will get stung with import costs


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## NikC

I'm enjoying my cream one. Like the red too, so good luck with it when it arrives


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## Morningfuel

igor_xxxx said:


> I finally ordered the red barista version from Cafelatstore, so hope it will be worth it, considering I will get stung with import costs


 Hopefully you won't! It sounds like you can get somewhat lucky - please report back and let us know how you get on.

I'm starting with a kilo of cc mystery mark and maybe one of their blends - cherry cherry perhaps.


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## igor_xxxx

Morningfuel said:


> Hopefully you won't! It sounds like you can get somewhat lucky - please report back and let us know how you get on.
> 
> I'm starting with a kilo of cc mystery mark and maybe one of their blends - cherry cherry perhaps.


 Unfortunately living outside the EU (I'm not in the UK) has certain "benefits", one of them being paying higher import duties, especially if the goods are sent via FedEx or DHL.

Nevertheless, I wanted a red robot NOW, so I was prepared to over pay a bit for it 

I will share my impressions in a few weeks.


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## Morningfuel

igor_xxxx said:


> Unfortunately living outside the EU (I'm not in the UK) has certain "benefits", one of them being paying higher import duties, especially if the goods are sent via FedEx or DHL.
> 
> Nevertheless, I wanted a red robot NOW, so I was prepared to over pay a bit for it
> 
> I will share my impressions in a few weeks.


 I'm sure it's worth it. Reviews are great, and to be honest, it's a great looking curiosity. It passed the fiancée test, the only other that did was the flair, but only in white with copper accents... 

Making a coffee compass order today. Not sure what to try!


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## matted

Morningfuel said:


> I'm starting with a kilo of cc mystery mark and maybe one of their blends - cherry cherry perhaps.


 Cherry cherry is good. On the MM13 check out the thread in beans section for what people think.

From CC there are a range of diff recommendations from others. You will like what you like though so worth experimenting.


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## Morningfuel

matted said:


> Cherry cherry is good. On the MM13 check out the thread in beans section for what people think.
> 
> From CC there are a range of diff recommendations from others. You will like what you like though so worth experimenting.


 I got mystery 13 plus a trio of espresso - cherry cherry on the lighter side, sweet bourbon for the middle and mahogany malabar hit for the darker roast. All review exceptionally well, so I'm really excited to give them a go in a week or two.


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## matted

Morningfuel said:


> I got mystery 13 plus a trio of espresso - cherry cherry on the lighter side, sweet bourbon for the middle and mahogany malabar hit for the darker roast. All review exceptionally well, so I'm really excited to give them a go in a week or two.


 All of CC roasts are dark to me lol. The mahogany I have yet to try...


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## Morningfuel

It arrived! And I'm going to post my first ever shot on it - I literally unpacked, ground 17g of beans, boiled the kettle with the portafilter and holder warming on the kettle and pulled a shot.

It was ground a bit fine for the dose I think - I was doing a 1 bar preinfusion followed by an 8-9 bar extraction (hard work!) and it wasn't flowing as quick as I'd hoped, leading to this very long shot time (more than 1 minute!).

Amazingly, still drinkable - *slightly* bitter, but not horribly so, and muddy - there was chocolate but no fruity notes at all. I suspect the slow shot means more temperature loss, which worked in my favour in avoiding something truly vile? I went 17g coffee in, 40g out. My scales fit beautifully with a demitasse on!






Absolutely chuffed. It's a beautiful object, too, made very nicely. I can't wait to dial in a slightly easier shot - either same grind but down-dosed half a gram or so, or coarser grind. I was at 1.4 on the aergrind.


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## matted

Nice. I have just picked up an aergrind also so useful to compare. Although beans will be different.


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## Morningfuel

Still in the honeymoon period with this.

Tried the rocko mountain natural process this morning from coffee compass. First attempt, at 1.4 turns (same as mystery 13) and it choked completely - which is interesting! This is a slightly lighter roast by my eye, but I'm not an expert...

So I opened up to 1.9 turns, quite a drastic change. 17g in, 40g out in 40 seconds including a 10 second 1 bar preinfusion, extraction around 6-7 bar. Great texture and clear fruity flavours, berry-like. If I had to guess, the extraction was a tad over as there are some bitter notes in the after taste, but I'm being really picky and mystery 13 is a very sweet coffee!

Next I'll try a 1:2 and see how that goes.

Obviously it's mostly going to be the grinder, but this is a much better home machine than my old gaggia classic in my opinion, for several reasons:

- faster workflow. Sounds counter intuitive, but I don't need to wait for it to warm up.

- less messy. I don't need to flush to get temperature stability, and the puck is bone dry and compacted.

- no descaling. I mean, that's awesome.

- cleaning is so easy. I wipe the bottom piston (which, as of yet, I've not see any real coffee residue on).

- lower running costs - just boil the kettle and go. Seals are pretty cheap.

- much smaller and prettier (although a la pavoni or similar is obviously beautiful and small too, but temperature stability remains)

Initial cons:

- it's work. It's actually quite physical to use, and I wonder whether a slightly smaller pf would make this much easier (say, 53mm instead of 58mm - but there are probably good reasons for 58mm)

- it feels weird at first to fill up the portafilter with water, especially as you can see some coffee is dissolved in it. Just a peculiarity, no different from any other espresso machine technically, you just don't see it!

- the pressure gauge is not so easy to see in use. I've found it really helpful to assess what I'm doing, but I do wish it was on the front of the unit. However, it's mounted really nicely and I can see why the location was chosen (tidier, no need for a long tubing)

- spares availability. I'd like a couple of spare shower screens, but I think I need to order direct from Hong Kong. Not a big issue... And the filter papers would get me out of trouble!

-no milk steaming. However, I don't mind just adding warm milk from the stove and being content. I mostly drink espresso or espresso with water.

All in all, I'd probably more strongly recommend this over a gaggia classic, provided the buyer didn't care about milk steaming. I don't see this as any less convenient, and in many ways, it is more so.

I would imagine the flair requires much less effort to use as it has a narrower bed of coffee, so I am still interested in trying one, one day.


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## matted

thanks for the useful post and thoughts.

I had my first go on this morning and was fiddling with my workflow and timing of stages. I also was getting used to my aergrind, which I realised I had way too course.

on some of the things you mention:

*Pressure gauge* - you can turn the gauge away from you, then lean over when pressing down to see the gauge if you are struggling to do both at the same time. Or use a small make up mirror 😘

*Spares *- you can order from HK or from the reseller in GER. they for example sell spare shower screens, seals, hands. 10 euro post cost iirc. (I am assuming the hands make a difference, however they are ALU not steel, so I dont think a crazy amount of difference, the biggest change in resistance will likely come from grind adjustment.

*Milk steaming* - i have a nespresso milk frother, which was free - the wife uses that for her coffee! i find this produces too much big froth, compared to proper steaming on a espresso machine, I think the microwave route is my preferred option comparing the two.


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## Morningfuel

matted said:


> thanks for the useful post and thoughts.
> 
> I had my first go on this morning and was fiddling with my workflow and timing of stages. I also was getting used to my aergrind, which I realised I had way too course.
> 
> on some of the things you mention:
> 
> *Pressure gauge* - you can turn the gauge away from you, then lean over when pressing down to see the gauge if you are struggling to do both at the same time. Or use a small make up mirror 😘
> 
> *Spares *- you can order from HK or from the reseller in GER. they for example sell spare shower screens, seals, hands. 10 euro post cost iirc. (I am assuming the hands make a difference, however they are ALU not steel, so I dont think a crazy amount of difference, the biggest change in resistance will likely come from grind adjustment.
> 
> *Milk steaming* - i have a nespresso milk frother, which was free - the wife uses that for her coffee! i find this produces too much big froth, compared to proper steaming on a espresso machine, I think the microwave route is my preferred option comparing the two.


 Ooo forgot about Germany.

The nanofoamer should be coming out next year I think - initial reviews suggest it does a pretty decent job of texturing milk, and should come in at 40 quid or so... I'm tempted to order one to be honest!

I did not know I could turn the gauge! I'll point it up so I can get on top of the machine. Thanks!


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## matted

Morningfuel said:


> Ooo forgot about Germany.
> 
> The nanofoamer should be coming out next year I think - initial reviews suggest it does a pretty decent job of texturing milk, and should come in at 40 quid or so... I'm tempted to order one to be honest!
> 
> I did not know I could turn the gauge! I'll point it up so I can get on top of the machine. Thanks!


 You can't turn the gauge. Pivot the whole machine 180 degrees, so the guage is facing away from you. I.e. the back of the machine.

Then when pressing down, lean over the top to read the gauge


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## Morningfuel

Finding this is very forgiving with shots. While there are differences between, say, a 34g extraction and a 45g extraction, it's not like one is a horrible sour underextracted mess and the other is good, or one is horribly bitter and the other is fine. They're actually both delish, and I've only had one sink shot so far (machine choked due to too fine grind). I've had about 25 shots in total since arrival (tiramisu required many of those!). Here is a typical shot - preinfusion, then 8 bar, declining to 40g in the cup from a 17g dose.


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## PhilDawes

I got my robot a couple of weeks ago and am really enjoying it. I have to agree with Matted: turning the robot round so the gauge is pointing backwards and standing over it is the way to go for me - much easier to press down and control pressure. It's still easy to see the gauge.

Also if you're experimenting with pre-heating the piston: I found that those little plastic chutney tubs you sometimes get with an indian takeaway are the perfect size.

Come to think of it, I think they might be the same tubs you get for ketchup in five-guys.


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## Morningfuel

I tried preheating today, but it made for a more bitter shot, so I can only assume my extraction was okay and the preheat pushed it up a bit - or my prep was a bit off, which is perhaps equally as likely.

If it ain't broke, I won't fix it. I'm going for sweeter, darker roasts on this and saving the singly origin yirgs for filter.


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## matted

Agree on the ease of using and getting decent shots on the robot. Apart from putting in a touch too much water into the PF, I haven't had a bad shot at all

On preheating, have been with the PF. For all shots, just part of workflow and easy to do.

For the piston only done it once, using some of the kids sippee cups which fit nicely. Good tip for other plastics @PhilDawes

Preheating differences seem to be debatable. Some helpful folk on home barista doing some measurements.

Also Paul Pratt shared some helpful videos


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## Morningfuel

I am currently drinking the coffee compass sweet bourbon blend and found a preheat is not needed and is a detriment to the taste. I'm going 18g in, 40g out for this one, 17g in to 40g out definitely was a bit less sweet.


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## matted

Same here really. I am only preheating the basket / portafilter. Not the piston. I don't think I would particularly notice.

enjoying James Gourmet formula 6 which is funking mental strong and smooth.

Still not had a bad shot. 🙂


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## Morningfuel

matted said:


> Same here really. I am only preheating the basket / portafilter. Not the piston. I don't think I would particularly notice.
> 
> enjoying James Gourmet formula 6 which is funking mental strong and smooth.
> 
> Still not had a bad shot. 🙂


 James gourmet is next on my list to try - I have a couple of months worth of coffee compass in at the moment, but good to hear a good review!


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## NikC

Both these coffees sound interesting. What I really enjoy about the robot is good coffee without much faff, so not pre-heating if possible is good.


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## 9719

One man's view... May or may not be of interest 

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/index.html


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## Morningfuel

> 7 hours ago, ********** said:
> 
> One man's view... May or may not be of interest https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji2369.png


 I found this vid interesting, I assume he's using a light filter roast as he mentions the need to preheat a fair bit, as well as other issues.

I don't think I've encountered the puck "floating" and massive channeling when doing low pressure preinfusion - I get good texture and definitely not weak/thin shots so I wonder whether he was properly using the shower screen, or perhaps he was releasing pressure in preinfusion - I don't doubt he encountered an issue though.

He, like James Hoffman, also seems to be happy with an air barrier and measuring water in to get target out - I always fill with water with just 5mm or so of space at the top, and stop the shot at target weight. This also presumably helps with temperature as more water should mean more thermal mass. I actually wonder if this might cause issues with the puck rising up...


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## NikC

Interesting vid, thanks. Like you I don't get the issues he talks about with slow pre-infusion. I fill the portafilter to about 1cm from the top and ramp up pressure. I don't have the barista version so I'm doing it by feel but shots aren't watery or thin. I tried pressing down hard immediately when I first had the robot, but prefer the slow ramp up method. I'll probably give his method another go to compare now I've had the robot for a few weeks. I'm liking the coffee from it and the workflow is simple since I don't preheat.


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## colm1989

Does anyone know if the barista gauge can be added retrospectively? The wife wants to get me one for xmas and the shop in France that has been linked a few times on here only has the standard version in stock.

In a similar vein, do you find the gauge helps with your shot extraction?


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## NikC

I don't have the barista version, so can't help with how easy it is to use. You can get a good feel for what pressure you're applying by using bathroom scales under the robot, Cafelat provide a table to convert what you see on the scale into pressure in bars. I did it once then just used the robot by feel after that, works well, and I think the robot looks better without the gauge (cheaper too)


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## Morningfuel

colm1989 said:


> Does anyone know if the barista gauge can be added retrospectively? The wife wants to get me one for xmas and the shop in France that has been linked a few times on here only has the standard version in stock.
> 
> In a similar vein, do you find the gauge helps with your shot extraction?


 It can be, the cafelat website sells them.

I love having it, but I don't think it's needed. You'll soon get a good feel of what makes good espresso and what doesn't.

That said, I'd not be without, I love knowing if I've extracted at 8 bars or 5 bars. It's the inner child who likes playing with toys.


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## kjarsheim

matted said:


> Grinder will be fine I would expect.
> 
> I have a feld2 and would expect the same. I have used the feld2 for espresso no problems.
> 
> https://www.home-barista.com/levers/cafelat-robot-user-experience-t54550.html
> 
> Buying
> 
> From
> 
> https://www.cafelatstore.com/
> 
> Or
> 
> https://coffee24.de/
> 
> .


 +1 for Feld2, have had one partnered with Flair as my travel espresso kit over a year now, its very capable as is the Flair


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## Morningfuel

Been a few months now so I thought I'd come back and post more thoughts.

I still love it. Probably more than I did, if anything! Every day, it produces 4-6 espressos for me and my partner.

It's extremely forgiving - if I have a new coffee, or switch to decaf and make the grind finer but not fine enough, I don't get a sink shot - because you can feel what's happening I can just reduce pressure and run the shot for a longer ratio (3:1 or 4:1 even) and get a fantastic coffee.

It has a real, tangible benefit over "real" espresso machines - the portafilter. Being as deep as it is, puck prep is trivial. I see people spending £100+ on ways to stir and level the grinds in a portafilter without making a mess, but with the robot I can just swirl grinds in the pf, then use a cocktail stick to stir and level without fear of spilling ground coffee. That is, probably, one of the biggest benefits of the robot.

Mine wobbles a bit now, so I need to tighten the base a bit. No biggy.

The silicon nubbin on the shower screen broke. For now, I'm using a paper filter under the metal screen and will order a spare (and will ask if they can throw in some spare silicone bits). Works great, and the paper filters are reusable - just rinse them and let them dry! I get a couple of days out of each.

It's quiet - pair it with a quiet kettle (I use the bodum gooseneck) and you've got something that can make espresso at 5am without waking anyone 

I don't have temperature issues. First thing in the morning, I run some warm water into a cup and warm the piston, but only to blood temp, as it's very cold overnight. In summer I'll not do this. Preheating the piston hot reduces shot quality.

I tried sprometheus and hoffmans method of only using the water you need, and while it worked mostly, I did experience that puck lift issue sprometheus had once. Just don't do that, it's a stupid idea and has no benefit and has a cost of less temperature stability. Read the manual, and fill to half a cm or so from the top and cut the shot short. It won't leak everywhere once you've released pressure.

One final niggle - I tied a broken hairband around one of the arms, so I can wrap it around the pressure gauge. This just holds the arms up for me while prepping.


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## kennyboy993

Really good insight!

I think I'll treat myself to one of these this year


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## Morningfuel

kennyboy993 said:


> Really good insight!
> 
> I think I'll treat myself to one of these this year


 I can't fault it.

Allen key tightened the wobble up a treat and it's back to perfection.

Shots are textured and sweet - I would say that my local cafe (which uses large burred grinders) shots are brighter and "cleaner", but I prefer my espresso more textured. I think that's probably a function of using a hand grinder with 47mm italmil burrs versus something like a big flat burr grinder, though, rather than the robot.

Currently drinking craft house industrial, which is a chocolatey sweet blend to my taste buds. James gourmet formula 6 is probably my favourite so far, for balancing sweet chocolates with lots of fruit.


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## Aldaris3000

Hi there I'm planning on buying the red barista version, could somebody help me how to count the costs?(I live in the UK, but I don't know other than the shipping how much will I need to pay and what is the method of it)

Thank You very much!


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## matted

Aldaris3000 said:


> Hi there I'm planning on buying the red barista version, could somebody help me how to count the costs?(I live in the UK, but I don't know other than the shipping how much will I need to pay and what is the method of it)
> 
> Thank You very much!


 have you read pages 1 and 2 of this thread? the details are there


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## NikC

Morningfuel said:


> Been a few months now so I thought I'd come back and post more thoughts.
> 
> I still love it. Probably more than I did, if anything! Every day, it produces 4-6 espressos for me and my partner.
> 
> It's extremely forgiving - if I have a new coffee, or switch to decaf and make the grind finer but not fine enough, I don't get a sink shot - because you can feel what's happening I can just reduce pressure and run the shot for a longer ratio (3:1 or 4:1 even) and get a fantastic coffee.
> 
> It has a real, tangible benefit over "real" espresso machines - the portafilter. Being as deep as it is, puck prep is trivial. I see people spending £100+ on ways to stir and level the grinds in a portafilter without making a mess, but with the robot I can just swirl grinds in the pf, then use a cocktail stick to stir and level without fear of spilling ground coffee. That is, probably, one of the biggest benefits of the robot.
> 
> Mine wobbles a bit now, so I need to tighten the base a bit. No biggy.
> 
> The silicon nubbin on the shower screen broke. For now, I'm using a paper filter under the metal screen and will order a spare (and will ask if they can throw in some spare silicone bits). Works great, and the paper filters are reusable - just rinse them and let them dry! I get a couple of days out of each.
> 
> It's quiet - pair it with a quiet kettle (I use the bodum gooseneck) and you've got something that can make espresso at 5am without waking anyone
> 
> I don't have temperature issues. First thing in the morning, I run some warm water into a cup and warm the piston, but only to blood temp, as it's very cold overnight. In summer I'll not do this. Preheating the piston hot reduces shot quality.
> 
> I tried sprometheus and hoffmans method of only using the water you need, and while it worked mostly, I did experience that puck lift issue sprometheus had once. Just don't do that, it's a stupid idea and has no benefit and has a cost of less temperature stability. Read the manual, and fill to half a cm or so from the top and cut the shot short. It won't leak everywhere once you've released pressure.
> 
> One final niggle - I tied a broken hairband around one of the arms, so I can wrap it around the pressure gauge. This just holds the arms up for me while prepping.


 An update from me after 4 months of use. Still enjoying the coffee from the Robot. I don't preheat the piston or basket but the beans I'm using are medium dark so maybe that could change with different beans. The arms still stay up without help while I prep which is useful. I usually fill to about a centimetre from the top of the basket and press until the flow stops - leaves a nice dry luck that's easy to tap into the knock box.


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## Stevebee

+1 for filling 0.5 cm short of line. Gives you options for running longer if grind is a bit off as you just stop the shot when you want - can't see any benefit of using the other method. Just introduces issues that don't exist if you follow Paul Pratt's method.


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## IggyK

I've seen loads of videos online of people using the flair with comandante. Is the robot the same? Or it needs a better grinder.


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## Mike B

IggyK said:


> I've seen loads of videos online of people using the flair with comandante. Is the robot the same? Or it needs a better grinder.


 A good hand grinder like the Kinu or comandante would be a great partner to the robot, or any espresso machine for that matter.


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