# Do IMS or VST baskets make a difference in the cup on a Classic? And is one better?



## HelicalRays

Hi All,

I was after some advice if I may. I'm running a Gaggia Classic (Rancilio wand and OPV mod) and Mazzer Super Jolly (had it for about a year). I make 2-4 drinks on a weekend day, usually cappuccino/cortado and the odd mid-week drink.

Would upgrading to an IMS or VST basket make a difference over the stock (non-pressurised) double baskets? Or since I'm mostly going milk based is it not a material difference?

Also, I can't seem to find a sensible answer on whether IMS or VST is better, only the one direct comparison (from perfect daily grind) which says any difference is marginal.

And if I upgrade the basket is there a benefit to going bottomless on the Portafilter at the same time?

Thanks for any / all advice and sorry for the long question!


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## coffeechap

Short answer yes

Longer answer - precision baskets allow you to grind finer and extract more from your coffee, the difference between the two is pretty marginal but the VST has the edge over the IMS. Getting a bottomless portafilter will help you in your prep, which will need to change once you start with the new basket.


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## ashcroc

I've used both IMS & VST in my Tebe (same wrokings as a Cassic) & both have worked fine though the VST is a bit less forgiving when it comes to prep. Can't really compare them to stock baskets though as mine only came with pressurised ones.


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## urbanbumpkin

I've used VST's in all of my machines including my Classic. It does make a difference, but it is less forgiving if you get the basket prep wrong compare to a stock backet.

Coffee chaps advice on a Bottomless PF is pretty good too. It's only when you get one of these that you realise what disaster is going on in the PF.


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## HelicalRays

Thanks All.

Coffeechap - when you say extract more from your coffee do you mean literally finer grind ⇒ more solutes so more flavour? And does getting your grind just right therefore become harder because you can over/under extract more easily?

And if all of you are saying the difference between IMS and VST is marginal is it worth saving the £10 and getting an IMS competition? I've also seen mentioned around that IMS now make "barista pro" baskets which are supposedly better again but probably not worth mentioning at this junction.


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## Agentb

Just to add to coffeechap's comments about being able to grind finer.

Definitely good value imho.

I replaced the standard classic basket (well i assume it was a standard Gaggia-looked about 17g - it came with the machine secondhand) with an 18g ridged VST, then bought a 20g ridgeless VST. I wouldn't buy a ridged one again unless i was changing baskets a lot.

Did some measurements like how long does it take water for a set volume to flow through, and the VST was roughly 20% faster. The reason i then went to 20g was i wanted to increase the dose to 20g and extract a larger volume especially on the lighter roasts for making a good sized latte, i needed about 45-50g extracted.

I think the perfect size tamper is 58.4mm, but you might need to double check that.

The cheapest i found was hasbean, but worth looking around.

You will notice the holes are smaller, but many more, closer together and the basket more cylindrical than the slightly concave standard. I do recall occasionally seeing some fines in the cup in the standard basket - so smaller holes less fines.

Being able to grind finer means you are able to explore a finer grind setting.

Good luck


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## HelicalRays

Thanks AgentB.

Do you mean you wouldn't buy a ridged again or a ridgeless? It feels to me like there's no real disadvantage to ridgeless but if you want to change baskets / clean your PF then ridged could be a pain.


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## L&R

There is a difference but all your routine should be in check beforehand.


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## HelicalRays

Sorry I'm not quite sure I follow - a difference in what?


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## Mrboots2u

I prefer VST as i i find the dose tolerances on the IMS to be pretty big and correlating that with improved extraction and precision confuses me .

Will a vst improve your coffee? It's icing in the cake, for you to see an improvement you need to have a good grinder , good prep and all the others things in your armoury be in line. On a classic, non pidded,you will still be at the mercy of temp swings when temp surfing if you have this nailed and feel you are getting consistent coffee already then go for a precision basket ( again my preference would be VST 18g ).

You need to grind finer for the VST and you need to be prepared for a little frustration on looking at the naked pf. Aim for taste not espresso porn . If you get both then that's all good and proper. Try to evaluate a shot by it's taste and not it's visuals , a shot can still be tasty and not be 100 percent espresso porn.

Of course if you are not enjoying the shot you made then , use the info you have to judge why.


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## igm45

coffeechap said:


> Short answer yes
> 
> Longer answer - precision baskets allow you to grind finer and extract more from your coffee, the difference between the two is pretty marginal but the VST has the edge over the IMS. Getting a bottomless portafilter will help you in your prep, which will need to change once you start with the new basket.


Have you tried the IMS baristapro line?

I have to grind finer for the baristapro than my VST. In the cup not much difference between those two.


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## Mrboots2u

igm45 said:


> Have you tried the IMS baristapro line?
> 
> I have to grind finer for the baristapro than my VST. In the cup not much difference between those two.


With improved Nano Tech









whats the dose tolerances on those ?

Grinding finer as you know can be a function of holes etc or dose in the basket.


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## igm45

Mrboots2u said:


> With improved Nano Tech
> 
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> 
> whats the dose tolerances on those ?
> 
> Grinding finer as you know can be a function of holes etc or dose in the basket.


Those nano's make all the difference...

They work for washing machines, shower gels, trainers, car tyres etc why not coffee baskets? 

I don't actually know the tolerance, like the VST baskets they are sold as 18g as opposed to 12-17g etc. I assume it's ±1g like the VST is.

I just know that I have an 18g VST and an 18g IMS baristapro if I use the same weight of coffee on both I have to grind finer for the IMS.


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## Mrboots2u

igm45 said:


> Those nano's make all the difference...
> 
> They work for washing machines, shower gels, trainers, car tyres etc why not coffee baskets?
> 
> I don't actually know the tolerance, like the VST baskets they are sold as 18g as opposed to 12-17g etc. I assume it's ±1g like the VST is.
> 
> I just know that I have an 18g VST and an 18g IMS baristapro if I use the same weight of coffee on both I have to grind finer for the IMS.


Ah cool that qualifies it a bit more.

I have to check my shows gel now for nanos when I get home.


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## HelicalRays

So does having to grind finer implicitly mean the basket is better?

Or is it just the nanos that make the difference


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## batkovan

Well ims has different lines - there is ims normal, competition, e&b lab, baristapro - here the catalogs https://www,imsfiltri.com/?lang=en.

I have ims competition 16g and vst 15g on my gaggia. For subjective reasons I feel the vst is far more superior than the ims competition line. And that feel gives me some kind of confidence and even joy when I make coffee. Having said that I'm not sure I can taste the difference in the cup between them, because I never did a proper blind test or so.

If we judje the baskets by the precision of the holes etc. then I wholeheartedly recommend vst or la marzocco baskets over the ims competition line.

Here is my ims competizione B682TH24.5M (the exact model) with 641 holes

bought on 04.12.2018. Taste is subjective but I'm definitely not impressed with the workmanship of the holes. Pictures(under microscope) say more than 1000 words >>




























ims baristapro seem to be a different animal. It is with the same precision or close to vst(I've seen some pictures under microscope and things are looking good). Same goes probably for the ims baskets produced in colaboration with e&b lab i.e. holes are precise, but I'm not sure since I haven't had the chance to see them yet.

to sum up my opinion on vst vs ims:

ims competition - I would better save my money for something else

ims baristapro - is worth it

ims e&b - not sure but worth checking out

vst - deffinetly worth it

Botomless - deffinetly get yourselve botomless. It will vastly improve your feedback during extraction, also more easy to clean and more crema than spouts.


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## batkovan

HelicalRays said:


> So does having to grind finer implicitly mean the basket is better?


Finer grind means smaller coffee particles. In theory the smaller particles are more soluble and easily dissolved leading to better extraction.


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## urbanbumpkin

15g VST is a swine to work with. 18g VST all the way for me.


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## Agentb

HelicalRays said:


> Thanks AgentB.
> 
> Do you mean you wouldn't buy a ridged again or a ridgeless? It feels to me like there's no real disadvantage to ridgeless but if you want to change baskets / clean your PF then ridged could be a pain.


If you are changing the baskets a lot, the ridgeless ones will get loose, whereas the ridged ones will snap in. The other thing i noticed is it's a teeny bit easier to clean the ridgeless. It sounds silly, but it feels good when you knock it all out with just one tap.









I missed the fact you don't have a pid, i think if i had to have only one mod on a classic - it would be a pid (brew and steam). It also is a great lesson on how a classic works.


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## HelicalRays

@batkovan - gotta love microscope pics. Thanks for that!



Agentb said:


> If you are changing the baskets a lot, the ridgeless ones will get loose, whereas the ridged ones will snap in. The other thing i noticed is it's a teeny bit easier to clean the ridgeless. It sounds silly, but it feels good when you knock it all out with just one tap.
> 
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> 
> I missed the fact you don't have a pid, i think if i had to have only one mod on a classic - it would be a pid (brew and steam). It also is a great lesson on how a classic works.


 @urbanbumpkin and @agentb - its looking like a ridged VST 18g isn't it... Nothing special needed for the classic just a standard VST 18g ridged? (I know the IMS baskets need a certain prefix to have the right rim).

@Agentb - I've seen so much written about PIDs but in so far as I can tell they just reduce another variable, not particularly improve matters. However I'm willing to be corrected. And it feels hard to spend £80-100 on a £250 machine when I could save up for 6 months or a year to get up £500-800 and get a second hand PIDded HX or DB (I think). However I'm all ears and if the Classic is a worthy machine but just needs a PID to make it great and not need to upgrade then I'd definitely consider. I love furtling about with machinery.


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## batkovan

urbanbumpkin said:


> 15g VST is a swine to work with. 18g VST all the way for me.


Yeah I read that allot







. If the extraction is poor I like to think that the problem is in my preparation technic not the basket. That been said coffees are different and whereas with some you can get away with small conical burrs, others will require bigger or flat burrs, different temperature and even different pressure for optimal extraction.

Here some try's with my 15g vst>>


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## MildredM

What's the issue with a 15g basket?


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## 9719

MildredM said:


> What's the issue with a 15g basket?


Yer what's the issue... makes you get you're prep right once that's sorted = no problemo


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## ashcroc

MildredM said:


> What's the issue with a 15g basket?


It doesn't hold enough coffee!


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## Agentb

HelicalRays said:


> @urbanbumpkin and @agentb - its looking like a ridged VST 18g isn't it... Nothing special needed for the classic just a standard VST 18g ridged? (I know the IMS baskets need a certain prefix to have the right rim).


20g ridgeless is what i would buy again, and suits me fine.



> @Agentb - I've seen so much written about PIDs but in so far as I can tell they just reduce another variable, not particularly improve matters. However I'm willing to be corrected. And it feels hard to spend £80-100 on a £250 machine when I could save up for 6 months or a year to get up £500-800 and get a second hand PIDded HX or DB (I think). However I'm all ears and if the Classic is a worthy machine but just needs a PID to make it great and not need to upgrade then I'd definitely consider. I love furtling about with machinery.


I can only give you my experience - the classic has some worthy components but the analogue thermostats are truly stoneage, the steaming performance alone is worth the price. Your experience, if you choose to have one, may be different but i think you'd be surprised.


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## Agentb

MildredM said:


> What's the issue with a 15g basket?


You can't get much shopping in one...


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## Alexlaz

urbanbumpkin said:


> 15g VST is a swine to work with. 18g VST all the way for me.


 I am also having a difficult time pulling a good shot with the 15g VST. Any advice?


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## lake_m

Alexlaz said:


> I am also having a difficult time pulling a good shot with the 15g VST. Any advice?


 You need a really good grinder that can grind consistently and fine. You need to be super careful with your dose, prep, distribution and tamp. Other than that it's a doddle!


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## Dave double bean

I'm using a 15g, and find I have to grind a notch finer

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk


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## MadcoffeeMan

Anyone know how long the nanotech coating lasts on the IMS baskets? Im thinking about getting one and wondering if they go bad after a year or more


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## Gubbo89

Agentb said:


> If you are changing the baskets a lot, the ridgeless ones will get loose, whereas the ridged ones will snap in. The other thing i noticed is it's a teeny bit easier to clean the ridgeless. It sounds silly, but it feels good when you knock it all out with just one tap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I missed the fact you don't have a pid, i think if i had to have only one mod on a classic - it would be a pid (brew and steam). It also is a great lesson on how a classic works.


 May have to start a new thread but would be interested to hear what everyone's opinion on order of MODs should be.

I have a Classic with wand and OPV but would next be PID or baskets or bottomless PF or shower screen etc.

And then at what point do you stop modifiying and upgrade machine?


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## Badgerman

Gubbo89 said:


> May have to start a new thread but would be interested to hear what everyone's opinion on order of MODs should be.
> I have a Classic with wand and OPV but would next be PID or baskets or bottomless PF or shower screen etc.
> And then at what point do you stop modifiying and upgrade machine?


Think there is a thread on what upgrades bring one for your money/time.

PID was biggest bang for buck. 
Bottomless more about workflow and technique.

Most people do all the mods and then upgrade. It's difficult not to.


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## Gubbo89

Badgerman said:


> Think there is a thread on what upgrades bring one for your money/time.
> 
> PID was biggest bang for buck.
> Bottomless more about workflow and technique.
> 
> Most people do all the mods and then upgrade. It's difficult not to.


 Thanks - I won't muddy this thread with those kinds of questions - if you can find the post about mods, please can you link as I couldn't find it.

Interested to know how much to spend on Gaggia before considering the upgrade to HX - Nuova, Francino, Lelit.


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## Badgerman

Gubbo89 said:


> Thanks - I won't muddy this thread with those kinds of questions - if you can find the post about mods, please can you link as I couldn't find it.
> Interested to know how much to spend on Gaggia before considering the upgrade to HX - Nuova, Francino, Lelit.


Gaggia Classic Mods - Ranked by order of importance/impact
https://coffeeforums.co,uk/

£150 would get most of these. Enjoy the mods, learn then save up for an upgrade. Remember biggest bang for buck is good grinder. Niche or ex commercial Mazzer seem to be reliably recommended on here.


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## Dave double bean

That link doesn't work? Can you retry, I'd like to read that cheers

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk


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## Agentb

I think it's this one ... https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/38707-gaggia-classic-mods-ranked-by-order-of-importanceimpact/

👍


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## Fat_Ed

Adding my two cents -

Just had my VST 18g basket for a few days. Gave me noticeably more tastier shots, and more forgiving on the bottomless PF as well strangely but fantastically. Perhaps because the basket I had before was a 21g 🤷‍♂️


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## Zeak

I got a mild case of upgraditus and started eyeing baskets. Wish I didn't, but here we go.

Something inside of me can't shell out 40 quid for a VST atm (probably the upgraditus isn't severe enough) but 20 quid for IMS Competition sounds doable. But then I noticed they also make Ultrafine and Baristapro aaand Baristapro Nanotech V12 turbo quattro. Will the latter ones add more horsepower make my shots even faster, better and (most importantly) stronger?

Jokes aside, will I regret being a "cheapskate" and getting the plebeian Competition one instead of the fancier ones?


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## Agentb

Zeak said:


> Something inside of me can't shell out 40 quid for a VST atm


 https://www.hasbean.co.uk/collections/vst/products/vst-filter-basket?variant=248856036

For 26 quid. hth.

and I've just reread this thread, and i've gone back to a smaller cup now and so using the 18g basket. 👍


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## Mrboots2u

Zeak said:


> I got a mild case of upgraditus and started eyeing baskets. Wish I didn't, but here we go.
> 
> Something inside of me can't shell out 40 quid for a VST atm (probably the upgraditus isn't severe enough) but 20 quid for IMS Competition sounds doable. But then I noticed they also make Ultrafine and Baristapro aaand Baristapro Nanotech V12 turbo quattro. Will the latter ones add more horsepower make my shots even faster, better and (most importantly) stronger?
> 
> Jokes aside, will I regret being a "cheapskate" and getting the plebeian Competition one instead of the fancier ones?


 IMHO don't rate the IM's as much , such large a dose tolerance is bewildering .

you need a decent grinder to get the best out a vst .


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## zoglet

I'm really interested in this post as I seem to have encountered the same issue as many. Interestingly, youtube reviews and videos left me thinking IMS was slightly better overall which is the opposite from the view here. Either way I'm sure either are a fair upgrade.

Here's my question though. My current setup is an ECM Mechanika V Slim with a Ceado E37J.

The only switch I made to the ECM was an IMS showerhead, but I am looking to treat myself to a bottomless portafilter and an improved basket.

In looking for baskets, I've seen not only the VST, IMS Competion and Nano but also different IMS baskets described as "58mm" and "58 E61". Can anyone shed light on this, is it just a case of same thing different summary?

I was looking at something like the 18-20 (I pull doubles and drink as espresso or cortado style) but I am by no means experienced enough to really say which would be the correct/ideal choice.

I would be happy for the community's opinion. As I currently live in Germany, IMS seems much easier to get hold of and in fact there's a pretty large distributor just down the road selling something that I assume fits the bill (link below) but again, I'd be happy for your thoughts as from the picture and description, I can't really tell what it 'actually' is. Ultimately it says "IMS precision 18-22 suitable for 58 and recommended for E61". This is the place that I bought my machine from so the plan was to go down there and try the basket in the portafilter and a show machine before buying but of course, as they have a vested interest in selling me what they have in stock, an independent opinion from you guys would be awesome 🙂

https://espressoperfetto.de/IMS-Praezisionssieb-2-Tassen-18-22-g


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## Zeak

Mrboots2u said:


> IMHO don't rate the IM's as much , such large a dose tolerance is bewildering .
> 
> you need a decent grinder to get the best out a vst .


 Got it. Guessing Niche can grind fine enough?


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## Zeak

Agentb said:


> https://www.hasbean.co.uk/collections/vst/products/vst-filter-basket?variant=248856036
> 
> For 26 quid. hth.
> 
> and I've just reread this thread, and i've gone back to a smaller cup now and so using the 18g basket. 👍


 Yeah £26 is decent, thanks. They've only got ridged left though while I think ridge-less is the one to go with, isn't it? Also, I rarely go above 18g but now am toying with 19g. The stock basket fits it fine. Would imagine it'd be the maximum for the 18g VST too (judging by specs; depending on beans)?


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## Mrboots2u

Zeak said:


> Yeah £26 is decent, thanks. They've only got ridged left though while I think ridge-less is the one to go with, isn't it? Also, I rarely go above 18g but now am toying with 19g. The stock basket fits it fine. Would imagine it'd be the maximum for the 18g VST too (judging by specs; depending on beans)?


 Riddles is only useful is you are going to swap baskets over a lot TBH

Vst is 17-19 g tolerance but like any basket will depend on how coarse you are grinding your coffee


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## Zeak

Mrboots2u said:


> Riddles is only useful is you are going to swap baskets over a lot TBH
> 
> Vst is 17-19 g tolerance but like any basket will depend on how coarse you are grinding your coffee


 Got it. For some reason I thought it was referring to the shape/contour of the basket rather than... 🤦‍♂️ Understand now, thanks.


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## Agentb

I'm back using my 18g ridged VST and one positive side effect, is the ridge makes it easy to see how perfect your prep and tamping are. I typically put in 17-18 g coffee.

I'd still get the ridgeless if it was available, but if you want one quick....

I have a 20g, and I seem to recall they make larger 22g and 25g, but the Gaggia boiler size being limited is something to consider. You'll also need a bottomless PF for the larger sizes.


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## Dave double bean

They certainly do on a La Pavoni

Sent from my SM-G780F using Tapatalk


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## Agentb

also found https://shop.squaremilecoffee.com/products/ridgeless-vst-basket

Selling at 28 quid. I haven't bought anything from them, but they appear to be in stock. hth 👍


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## MediumRoastSteam

Looks like their E-shop is not quite up-to-date.... CTA fails with error, both for 18g and 20g ridgeless.


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## Agentb

OK who is eating all the VST ridgeless baskets? 😹


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## Doof

Agentb said:


> I'm back using my 18g ridged VST and one positive side effect, is the ridge makes it easy to see how perfect your prep and tamping are. I typically put in 17-18 g coffee.
> 
> I'd still get the ridgeless if it was available, but if you want one quick....
> 
> I have a 20g, and I seem to recall they make larger 22g and 25g, but the Gaggia boiler size being limited is something to consider. You'll also need a bottomless PF for the larger sizes.


 @Agentb do you know if the 20g wil fit in the standard portafilter?

Thanks


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## Agentb

Doof said:


> @Agentb do you know if the 20g wil fit in the standard portafilter?


 well i have just tried on what i think is my original PF. The answer is just, probably less than a mm to spare.

I'd recommend a bottomless, so you can see the action. These are easier to clean, you can get the cup and scales under easier.

hth 👍


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## Doof

Appreciated Agentb - thank you!


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