# V60 vs Clever Dripper



## Boxerman33 (Jul 2, 2019)

Apologies if this has been covered previously, i've misplaced my V60 and was going to buy a new one but considering the Clever Dripper as an alternative. Mainly use my MaraX on a daily basis but fancy using a manual brewer as an occasional change!

Any opinions as to which to go for, cost isn't a consideration, just flavour & performance!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Flavour & performance (which must be a driver of flavour, so essentially the same thing) are comparable when dialled in.

V60 is perhaps easier to troubleshoot, as grind size & pour rate can be dialled in.

Clever has a huge range of grind & steep time, with dead spots in the mid range of extraction (I tend to use very fine grinds & 20min+ steep, or coarse grinds with a 1 min steep & updosed). Fast Clever brews may well use higher doses for equivalent V60 brew sizes, long Clever steeps same ratio as V60.

Clever doesn't need a gooseneck kettle, which is strongly advised for V60, so pouring regime is simpler with Clever .

Clever uses papers you can pick up at some supermarkets, though V60 papers are pretty widely available, if not quite as widely as Clever.


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## Alex2m (Jan 13, 2021)

Hi Boxerman,

The @jimseven has a Clever Dripper as his daily driver, that's saying something ... I like the idea of taking advantage of both methods (immersion and filtering, half-French Press, half-V60) and experimenting with times etc.

I personally find the drippers themselves absolutely ugly. There are some sellers providing pastel colours (baby blue, yellow) non-translucent, and that's slightly better. Hario also have their version, which like most things Hario, is violently overpriced, the biscuit in that field being Goat Story "Gina".

So ... I made a Gina myself. Tap parts from B&Q, drippers from TkMaxx (they have Bialetti and Melitta, in V60 or flat bottom configurations, and different sizes and colours, for about £2 - £3.50. I'll post photos some day ...


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## Boxerman33 (Jul 2, 2019)

Hmmm, quite fancy the clever dripper based on that (and having watched the James Hoffmam video too.

@Alex2m your TKMaxx comment had me thinking, quick browse showed this https://www.tkmaxx.com/uk/en/home/kitchen+dining/drinkware/bar+glassware/silver-tone-double-walled-coffee-press-600ml/p/85531655


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

I like both and I'm not alternating between them in the morning. 
My findings are. 
The V60 provides me with a cup that has a little more concentrated flavour and body that I like. And I can get this with around 14g to 220g water in. 
The clever by comparison is lighter in body but still tastes really really good.

The V60 takes me less time, so I do this one if I get up before the kid as I can be done in 5 minutes and sat with a nice cup of coffee on my own for a few minutes before the chaos. 
If he's already awake I accept I've lost and use the clever and steep for longer. 
I am finding I need more like 16-18g in the clever to around 240g of water to get the flavour I liked. 
I can't be bothered to wait for 40 minutes to steep. I maxed at 20minutes and the coffee produced was naff. 
I tend to do 18g in 240g water, quite a fine grind, 2 minute steep and drawdown.

Overall I marginally prefer the V60, but I definitely do like the clever.


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## LukeC (Jan 9, 2021)

As I don't have a gooseneck kettle, I get much better and much more consistent results from the Clever. Absolutely love it for the simplicity and consistency; it's my go to first thing in the morning, before work, or during work because I can easily make a really nice cup with about 10% brain power 😂


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## QueenOfCaffine (Dec 29, 2020)

V60 for me, find the flavour to be punchy and easy to brew for myself or adapt if I'm making for both of us.

I have a ceramic V60 and thermal jug that I can batch brew into, meaning it stays warm without stewing.

It depends on your intended use.


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## Boxerman33 (Jul 2, 2019)

looks pretty much like a 50/50 split on opinions, in which case i'll probably end up getting both 🤦‍♂️ to add to the collection of MaraX, mokka pot, French press etc etc

Thanks for the input😊


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Wise move - plastic V60 is about a tenner so no brainer.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

must admit, i have both infact oddly 3 v60 lol

but im more and more using the clever - hoffman method for me there seems to be less variables, and more consistency.

do do still love the v60,


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Tried a slightly darker Brazilian in the clever this morning and it was terrible. Horrible bitter flavours, unlike the same coffee in the V60 yesterday. I think the clever seems to be better suited to getting better extractions out of lighter roasts, and may boarder on over-extracting darker ones. 
It has definitely produced better cups for me with a lighter roast. 
Problem is I'm not a massive fan of light roast in the morning!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

TomHughes said:


> Tried a slightly darker Brazilian in the clever this morning and it was terrible. Horrible bitter flavours, unlike the same coffee in the V60 yesterday. I think the clever seems to be better suited to getting better extractions out of lighter roasts, and may boarder on over-extracting darker ones.
> It has definitely produced better cups for me with a lighter roast.
> Problem is I'm not a massive fan of light roast in the morning!


 I'm sure the drink was bitter, but I'd be very surprised if it was over-extracted. I'm not sure I have ever achieved this with a Clever steep (vastly more likely with V60). Low side of normal extractions with a Clever can be flat, bitter, generic, lacking in character. Very low extractions (coarse, 1min steep, 90g/L) can be worth looking at if you drop into this dead zone.

If using a fine grind, be careful about over-stirring & clacking the brewer on the cup server at end of draw down, as you can increase the bittering silt in the cup.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

MWJB said:


> I'm sure the drink was bitter, but I'd be very surprised if it was over-extracted. I'm not sure I have ever achieved this with a Clever steep (vastly more likely with V60). Low side of normal extractions with a Clever can be flat, bitter, generic, lacking in character. Very low extractions (coarse, 1min steep, 90g/L) can be worth looking at if you drop into this dead zone.
> 
> If using a fine grind, be careful about over-stirring & clacking the brewer on the cup server at end of draw down, as you can increase the bittering silt in the cup.


 Ah yes, should have been careful with my language, 
I think the Brazilian needs a coarser grind but longer steep, potentially lower temp, 95 as opposed to on the boil.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

TomHughes said:


> Ah yes, should have been careful with my language,
> I think the Brazilian needs a coarser grind but longer steep, potentially lower temp, 95 as opposed to on the boil.


 Brazils are typically not very soluble, not sure I'd grind coarser for a long steep. My long steeps use the finest grinds I use for manual brewing.

Basically, you're not going to be able to push the envelope extraction-wise, whatever the time. Long steeps get into the ball-park with fine grinds. Short steeps can use either coarse (easier to wet quickly) or fine, but they'll be on the weak side unless you updose.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Thanks Mark, Sage advice as usual. 
The drinks have definitely been on the weak side, what dose would you use for say 250ml water or 450ml for 2 cups? If the steep was short, say 5 minutes. 
Time is of the essence in the mornings getting the wife to work and lad to nursery.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

TomHughes said:


> Thanks Mark, Sage advice as usual.
> The drinks have definitely been on the weak side, what dose would you use for say 250ml water or 450ml for 2 cups? If the steep was short, say 5 minutes.
> Time is of the essence in the mornings getting the wife to work and lad to nursery.


 If you want a quick brew, a minute (plus draw down) will do it. The difference between that & 5min won't be enough to get you into tasty, higher extractions.

I'd use 21-22g for 250g water, 39g for 450g water. Water first, coffee in, quick, light stir to wet, 0:45 sink crust & draw down at 1:00. Coarser end of V60 grind. If weak, grind a little finer. If muddy, flat, bitter (but not too weak) grind a little coarser.

If brewing finer, same ratio, add coffee to water stir gently at surface, draw down at 0:30s (stirring/wetting could take almost all the brew time here). If too weak, extend brew time in 15s increments?


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

MWJB said:


> If you want a quick brew, a minute (plus draw down) will do it. The difference between that & 5min won't be enough to get you into tasty, higher extractions.
> 
> I'd use 21-22g for 250g water, 39g for 450g water. Water first, coffee in, quick, light stir to wet, 0:45 sink crust & draw down at 1:00. Coarser end of V60 grind. If weak, grind a little finer. If muddy, flat, bitter (but not too weak) grind a little coarser.
> 
> If brewing finer, same ratio, add coffee to water stir gently at surface, draw down at 0:30s (stirring/wetting could take almost all the brew time here). If too weak, extend brew time in 15s increments?


 Thanks Mark, that's a big increase in coffee! I was using 22-24g for the 450! 
How long would be minimum for long steep? 20 mins?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

TomHughes said:


> Thanks Mark, that's a big increase in coffee! I was using 22-24g for the 450!
> How long would be minimum for long steep? 20 mins?


 20min for 250mL

30-35min for 450mL

Remember to heat the cups!


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

MWJB said:


> 20min for 250mL
> 
> 30-35min for 450mL
> 
> Remember to heat the cups! 🙂


 Thanks, if I get up early enough tomorrow I might give it a go!


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

So tried the long steep this morning.

24g coffee in 420ml, 40 minute steep. Slightly finer than v60, Brazilian.

Water put in at 95c

really nice flavour, no bitterness at all. It was a very clean cup. A light flavour but not weak by any stretch


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## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

I've just got a clever dropper so still at the early stage, but up to now I'm finding it a good alternative for the v60 if I want to wait a bit longer for a coffee.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Finding a really nice sweetspot with the clever now. 
Whilst I found the longer steeps were very nice they required a bit more planning!

I am finding that finely ground (1+8 on my 1ZPRESSO, for ref espresso is 1+4 and V60 2+4), 16g in, 250ml water, steeped for 12 minutes and then drawn down. 
Slow draw down (despite water in first) but no siltiness in the cup. 
Not quite as sweet as the longer steep, but very nice.


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

Ah, I must be in the minority! Still not getting the best out of the clever dripper I bought.

Tried the short and long steep recommendations from MWJB, also the water in first one from Hoffman. Shorter ones were a bit weak and longer was a bit flattened for some reason.

My V60 brews still win out hands down in terms of clarity, sweetness and different tasting notes. Normally follow either the Hoffman two or Rao single pour approach, getting good results from both at 60-65g/litre.

Might give it a break and try again a coffee or two down the road when I have a different bag on the go.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Northern_Monkey said:


> Ah, I must be in the minority! Still not getting the best out of the clever dripper I bought.
> 
> Tried the short and long steep recommendations from MWJB, also the water in first one from Hoffman. Shorter ones were a bit weak and longer was a bit flattened for some reason.
> 
> ...


 My method is water in first, has been for 7 years at least.

Can you tell us anything about your grind size for these regimes, neither of the methods I use for Clever are anything like the grind sizes for V60. But, at the end of the day, for quick brews at ~65g/L, I'd use a V60 too.

I also have a 1min steep recipe, coarse grind (8% at 400Kruve), 85-90g/L. It makes for a lower extraction, but they're still very tasty...


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

Thanks for the reply, will try and give a comparison of the grind size but it's hard without the sieves. I'm using an EK43S Turkish so rough dial settings are below. Coarsest is 16 and cafetière , 0 is coffee flour:

-Espresso - Normally 4 to 1.5

-Single pour V60 21g 350ml - 8 to 7

-Two pour V60 21g 350ml - 11 to 9

Ive tried the longer steep clever dripper 2-40 minute set between 11 and 8. Short steep 1-2 minute set between 8 and 6.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Northern_Monkey said:


> Thanks for the reply, will try and give a comparison of the grind size but it's hard without the sieves. I'm using an EK43S Turkish so rough dial settings are below. Coarsest is 16 and cafetière , 0 is coffee flour:
> 
> -Espresso - Normally 4 to 1.5
> 
> ...


 Based on that, I'd try the long steep Clever at more like 5-6, just coarser than espresso? Flatness in longer steeps is often under-extraction. With 350g water (23g coffee) , 30min should be feasible with a pre warmed cup.

Try 13-14, or thereabouts for the short steep at 85-90g/L?


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

Ta, will give it a go tomorrow morning and report back. 👍


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@MWJB - Long steep on coarser was better, just need to plan a lot further in advance! 😂 Not bitter, more body than my V60s, sweeter than before so fairly promising.

Short steep was too weak, plus a bit spendy per cup in the long run.

Definite improvements but I think the Clever Dripper will be a lazy weekend morning thing to be honest, sticking to a V60 or espresso when time is more critical.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Northern_Monkey said:


> Short steep was too weak, plus a bit spendy per cup in the long run.


 Sure, that's definitely a consideration, especially with small bags of pricey coffee.

When dialled in, the short 85-90g/L steeps should be landing 1.30 to 1.60%TDS, so normal range of strength.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Northern_Monkey said:


> @MWJB - Long steep on coarser was better, just need to plan a lot further in advance! 😂 Not bitter, more body than my V60s, sweeter than before so fairly promising.
> 
> Short steep was too weak, plus a bit spendy per cup in the long run.
> 
> Definite improvements but I think the Clever Dripper will be a lazy weekend morning thing to be honest, sticking to a V60 or espresso when time is more critical.


 I am finding my clever far more coffee thirsty than the V60. 
I get a really nice cup out of 12.5g with the V60, need more like 16-20 in the clever.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

TomHughes said:


> I am finding my clever far more coffee thirsty than the V60.
> I get a really nice cup out of 12.5g with the V60, need more like 16-20 in the clever.


 Makes sense. If you go for a long steep 12.5g with a lower coffee to water ratio still won't use enough water to hold its heat & extract to a high degree. If you go for a short steep, with a low extraction & high coffee to water ratio, you'll get a tiny cup of coffee.

I brew most of my drip brews at ~14g dose per cup, but like you, I use more like 15-20g for one cup Clever, or 30g+ for a full, large Clever.

Plus you get less absorption of brew water with manual drip, especially V60 & Chemex, than with Clever steep, so you can use less coffee dose & still get slightly more beverage out at the other end.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

MWJB said:


> Makes sense. If you go for a long steep 12.5g with a lower coffee to water ratio still won't use enough water to hold its heat & extract to a high degree. If you go for a short steep, with a low extraction & high coffee to water ratio, you'll get a tiny cup of coffee.
> 
> I brew most of my drip brews at ~14g dose per cup, but like you, I use more like 15-20g for one cup Clever, or 30g+ for a full, large Clever.
> 
> Plus you get less absorption of brew water with manual drip, especially V60 & Chemex, than with Clever steep, so you can use less coffee dose & still get slightly more beverage out at the other end.


 Yeh I was quite surprised earlier when I did 450ml water 24g coffee and ended up with only 385ml of coffee in the cup!


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Need a little help if possible @MWJB

Clever this morning with a natural Ethiopian from Black cat. Rested around 4 days.

24g in and 480ml water. Fine grind - halfway between espresso and V60 on the JX
Steeped for 35 minutes.

Absolutely delicious flavours, but mouthfeel was a little dry. Like the tannins in tea, something I don't like. Not overtly so and entirely drinkable but which direction would you go to improve this? 
The flavours were spot on so I wouldn't want to loose that.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I'd personally use a little more coffee (at least 1:16?), 1:20 is quite a lean ratio. When you brew at a lower coffee to water ratio it can exacerbate issues with silt & water.

Anecdotally, it's often suggested that Ethiopians can grind up finer (at the same setting) than a lot of other coffees, maybe go just a little coarser & see if that helps?


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

MWJB said:


> I'd personally use a little more coffee (at least 1:16?), 1:20 is quite a lean ratio. When you brew at a lower coffee to water ratio it can exacerbate issues with silt & water.
> 
> Anecdotally, it's often suggested that Ethiopians can grind up finer (at the same setting) than a lot of other coffees, maybe go just a little coarser & see if that helps?


 thanks, the grind did look exceptionally fine for the setting


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## Sly (Apr 1, 2018)

Is there much of a difference between the clever dripper and the aeropress? I've used the aeropress for years so very comfortable with it and appreciate that the immersion technique seems a lot more forgiving with grind size etc. I've seen a few people recently saying how much easier the cd is to use. Is it the same results via a slightly different route? They're both immersion brews that then get filtered right? I'd be interested to try it if there is much of a difference. I'd always figured the mechanism in it must be a magnet for build up of coffee and trickier to clean properly.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sly said:


> Is there much of a difference between the clever dripper and the aeropress? I've used the aeropress for years so very comfortable with it and appreciate that the immersion technique seems a lot more forgiving with grind size etc. I've seen a few people recently saying how much easier the cd is to use. Is it the same results via a slightly different route? They're both immersion brews that then get filtered right? I'd be interested to try it if there is much of a difference. I'd always figured the mechanism in it must be a magnet for build up of coffee and trickier to clean properly.


 Clever is, for me, easier to clean up, just whip out the filter & grounds, drop them in the bin & a quick rinse of the brewer with hot water.

Clever can hold quite a bit more water, so holds heat better for longer steeps & you can make 2x small cups.

Clever has slightly better filtration, but yes, they are essentially the same process, just the Clever (and Bonavita Immersion brewer, Wilfa pour over cone) drains under gravity.

I haven't found that immersion is any more forgiving re. grind size, it's much harder to over-extract, but there are patches of 'low side of normal' that can be truly horrible with immersion. Drip allows a wider range of extraction, but is no less precise at a consistent dose, grind & brew size. I would perhaps say that you can, on the fly, scale up/down on brew size, at the same grind size, more easily with immersion


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Sly said:


> Is there much of a difference between the clever dripper and the aeropress? I've used the aeropress for years so very comfortable with it and appreciate that the immersion technique seems a lot more forgiving with grind size etc. I've seen a few people recently saying how much easier the cd is to use. Is it the same results via a slightly different route? They're both immersion brews that then get filtered right? I'd be interested to try it if there is much of a difference. I'd *always figured the mechanism in it must be a magnet for build up of coffee and trickier to clean properly. *


 You can pop that out and clean the seals easily


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Thanks @MWJBthe slightly coarser grind did improve mouthfeel.


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

Hi peeps, the more i read about the "Clever Dripper" the more intrigued i become about it/possibly buying one....do they come in various sizes i.e. 1-3 cups, 1-5 cups etc. and do they come in various type materials i.e. plastic, steel, porcelain etc. ?? ...many thanks in advance.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Clever comes in 300ml and 500ml sizes - and all plastic. Grey is the commonest offering but it can be had in a limited number of colours - clear, white and red but harder to find.


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## Stu Beck (May 31, 2020)

They do come in two sizes but it's not so common to see these for sale. Hasbean did stock a range of colours but are sold out...

@BlackCatCoffee have cracking deal 👉 £20 including some filters and 25% off a bag of beans 👍


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

I got mine for Christmas from Black cat. 
The 500ml one which is perfect for 2 cups.

I am finding it a great way to get flavourful cups with low sourness and bitterness.

I have a darker roasted coffee that I use in the V60 and if I'm not careful it becomes bitter. 
I have a lovely ethiopian from Black cat (The Yirgacheffe) which in the V60 tries to go a little sour for my tastes but is beautiful in clever.

Beware though that you need to use more coffee! I use 12-14g in the V60 and 16-18g in the clever.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Clever comes in 300ml and 500ml sizes - and all plastic. Grey is the commonest offering but it can be had in a limited number of colours - clear, white and red but harder to find.


 The small ones only really hold about 220g of brew water with a #2 filter paper, 260g if you use a #4 filter paper.


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## Little_tipple (Apr 2, 2019)

I've been using the v60 switch since Christmas - absolutely loving it. Been doing a bastard hybrid of immersion and percolation for a my bigger brews - 30g coffee to 250ml water left to steep for 5 mins, then open the valve, and add another 250ml water through, been getting a really lovely cup...


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Little_tipple said:


> I've been using the v60 switch since Christmas - absolutely loving it. Been doing a bastard hybrid of immersion and percolation for a my bigger brews - 30g coffee to 250ml water left to steep for 5 mins, then open the valve, and add another 250ml water through, been getting a really lovely cup...


 That's a hell of a lot of coffee! That would have me bouncing off the walls!


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## Little_tipple (Apr 2, 2019)

TomHughes said:


> That's a hell of a lot of coffee! That would have me bouncing off the walls!


 So I drip it into a insulated carafe, and it keeps me going for the morning - 500ml is just 2 cups really... Definitely couldn't take that all in one hit!


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## Boxerman33 (Jul 2, 2019)

OK so i decided to go Clever Dripper, great timing too as my MaraX packed up! Didn't want to mess with my Grinder Settings on my Ceado E92, so brought by Sage SmartGrinder Pro back out of retirement, and set on a fairly course (percolator) setting.

Well, i have to say the coffee produced was genuinely very good, smoother than an Espresso based americano from the MaraX. Like the simplicity of it, using around 20-22g to 400ml and a 4-5 minute steep (not been too accurate with timings as i'm fitting it around working/calls etc)

May well become my new goto coffee regime!!!!


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## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

Boxerman33 said:


> OK so i decided to go Clever Dripper, great timing too as my MaraX packed up! Didn't want to mess with my Grinder Settings on my Ceado E92, so brought by Sage SmartGrinder Pro back out of retirement, and set on a fairly course (percolator) setting.
> Well, i have to say the coffee produced was genuinely very good, smoother than an Espresso based americano from the MaraX. Like the simplicity of it, using around 20-22g to 400ml and a 4-5 minute steep (not been too accurate with timings as i'm fitting it around working/calls etc)
> 
> May well become my new goto coffee regime!!!!


I use mine daily at work and love the brew it makes. Try putting the water in first then adding the grinds if you're not already doing so. I find it gives a far more consistent draw down time that way


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## winterlight (Feb 27, 2016)

TomHughes said:


> My findings are.
> The V60 provides me with a cup that has a little more concentrated flavour and body that I like. And I can get this with around 14g to 220g water in.
> The clever by comparison is lighter in body but still tastes really really good.


 I'd go along with this.

Also, I have to note that I actually find that the Clever is very good when using supermarket coffee. I find that supermarket beans always have a bitter edge to them, but it's barely noticeable when I put them through the Clever. This may just be down to supermarket beans being a darker roast than I usually go for, but worth noting.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

winterlight said:


> I'd go along with this.
> 
> Also, I have to note that I actually find that the Clever is very good when using supermarket coffee. I find that supermarket beans always have a bitter edge to them, but it's barely noticeable when I put them through the Clever. This may just be down to supermarket beans being a darker roast than I usually go for, but worth noting.


 I don't know if I'm finding similar, maybe for different reasons, but my short & coarse grind Clevers are tending to have no/very few off flavours, even with lighter roasts.


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