# Londinium 1 vs R



## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

Hi everyone

So as some of you may have seen I've been on the lookout for a londinium R. Unfortunately none have come up yet so I've been psyching myself up to buy a new one.

Now there have been a few L1 machines for sale on here for around £1400-1500 and I was wondering am I going to spending over £1000 more for a marginally better taste? Or this difference going to be night and day?

I've read multiple threads on the differences, hardware wise, between the old L1 and the new LR but I was hoping some owners who have owned both could chime in with their experience in the cup

Obviously the money is relative so to you the £1000 may not be such a big consideration. But if we consider the percentage difference is the LR worth the money over a used L1?

Will I even be able to difference coming from a standard gaggia classic?

I'll be using a Niche grinder and I'd say I generally prefer medium roasts.

Your opinions and comments are welcome. Also sorry if this has been covered before but I couldn't find it when searching.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

There is a lot of difference between the machines, however you will still get great results out of an L1, if it were me and I have owned every single iteration of a Londinium machines, I would just hold out for another LR at around 1800-2k and fit the transducer at a later stage that way you will have the latest spec ant much less money


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Fez said:


> Will I even be able to difference coming from a standard gaggia classic?


In short, yes.



Fez said:


> I'll be using a Niche grinder and I'd say I generally prefer medium roasts.


LR will take lighter notes to a new level. Whilst the Niche is a great grinder, it might not get the potential for this out of the LR.

@Fez Would you like to do some real world taste testing? My son has an L1. With some planning, could put his L1 alongside my LR and do some taste comparisons. You supply the beans - light and medium roasted


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Perfect idea above


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I went from a silvia to a l1.

The difference in temp stability alone is key.

If nothing else this means you are able to make best shots more repeatable.

I took my niche to a cafe and pulled 5 - 6 shots of a good light single origin there. It held up very well in the cup.

While an ek or a mythos etc may well give you perceptable differences in the cup there are trade offs in size and cost. Etc.

Of course there is no gaurentee you will percieve these cup improvements of a new grinder. A new machine will make espresso more consistent.


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

The Systemic Kid said:


> In short, yes.
> 
> LR will take lighter notes to a new level. Whilst the Niche is a great grinder, it might not get the potential for this out of the LR.
> 
> @Fez Would you like to do some real world taste testing? My son has an L1. With some planning, could put his L1 alongside my LR and do some taste comparisons. You supply the beans - light and medium roasted


Wow what a great offer! Thank you, I would love to take you up on this.

Unfortunately once purchasing the machine I don't see myself having the budget for a different grinder anywhere in the near future. Also the single dosing and small footprint of the niche really appeal to me. That was one of my concerns, considering I'll be using the niche would the LR be worth it


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Fez said:


> Wow what a great offer! Thank you, I would love to take you up on this.
> 
> Unfortunately once purchasing the machine I don't see myself having the budget for a different grinder anywhere in the near future. Also the single dosing and small footprint of the niche really appeal to me. That was one of my concerns, considering I'll be using the niche would the LR be worth it


 @MildredM tried a Niche with her LR recently so should be able help.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

@Fez - way to go is get your Niche and then run some shots through an L1 and LR.


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

The Systemic Kid said:


> @Fez - way to go is get your Niche and then run some shots through an L1 and LR.


That's a good idea. Hoping to have my niche by next week. Maybe I could come pay you a visit at some point after that if you're not too far away from me?


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Fez said:


> That's a good idea. Hoping to have my niche by next week. Maybe I could come pay you a visit at some point after that if you're not too far away from me?


If you can take your Niche to TSKs then I'd go for it. Nothing beats hands-on testing


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

@Fez - L1 is in Manchester, LR is in Preston. Simplest way of doing this is to meet up at my son's, test your Niche with his L1 then nip over to Preston and try it on my LR.


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## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

A gent as ever SK


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

It might be worth trying a different grinder with your Classic to see if it could get better shots than L1/LR with Niche.

Just my opinion as I think you'll need a better grinder to get the most out of a Londinium. I am saying this as a LR owner who had Niche for a brief period of time, but fired up E37S one day and realised what I was missing out!


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

PPapa said:


> It might be worth trying a different grinder with your Classic to see if it could get better shots than L1/LR with Niche.
> 
> Just my opinion as I think you'll need a better grinder to get the most out of a Londinium. I am saying this as a LR owner who had Niche for a brief period of time, but fired up E37S one day and realised what I was missing out!


I'd agree that the grinder is a huge part of the decision.

I guess its a balance on finances. L1 + £1000 grinder vs LR + Niche. I know that I saw a huge improvement when I moved from Cherub to L1 (both with Quamar M80) and then saw a step change when I moved to the Mythos. Upgrading both will make a massive difference but the grinder more so.

Maybe its possible to try the L1 and LR with Niche and a high end grinder as part of the visits to see where the money is best spent. Its not often that this chance is available (great offer from TSK btw).

If the budget is £2.5K then my money would be spent on L1 and £1K used grinder. If its £3.5K+ then LR and £1K+ grinder


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

The Systemic Kid said:


> @Fez - L1 is in Manchester, LR is in Preston. Simplest way of doing this is to meet up at my son's, test your Niche with his L1 then nip over to Preston and try it on my LR.


This would work fine for me. I guess I'll pm you once the niche arrives and we can take it from there


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

Im happy to consider changing grinder in a few years. But the niche hasn't even been delivered yet! Haha.

I guess I'll see how I feel about the niche after pulling some shots through the L1 and LR first.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Niche needs run in. The L1 will get the best out of whatever grinder you use. You might have to work a bit though. Ppapa went from 63mm conical to 83mm flat......all that tells us is the flavour profile on the Cedar was more suited to the light beans he was using


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> Ppapa went from 63mm conical to 83mm flat......all that tells us is the flavour profile on the Cedar was more suited to the light beans he was using


That is correct, although I then went to 98mm new coffee burrs on ek43s. For me it didn't make sense to get sub-standard results with an espresso machine capable of a lot more.

It's an expense I wasn't planning on at the time, hence my suggestion to try and see whether a grinder is another option. Niche sells well in this forum anyway.

Then again, lots of happy Niche users here and it's down to preference, isn't it.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

@Fez that's fine. PM me when you are ready.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

PPapa said:


> That is correct, although I then went to 98mm new coffee burrs on ek43s. For me it didn't make sense to get sub-standard results with an espresso machine capable of a lot more.
> 
> It's an expense I wasn't planning on at the time, hence my suggestion to try and see whether a grinder is another option. Niche sells well in this forum anyway.
> 
> Then again, lots of happy Niche users here and it's down to preference, isn't it.


Would 83mm burrs produce sub standard results..

Thats 90 percent of coffee shops out the window


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Would 83mm burrs produce sub standard results..
> 
> Thats 90 percent of coffee shops out the window


No, I was quite happy with the taste produced by E37S, just didn't find the single dosing workflow that would work for me.

I haven't had E37S by the side of LR for longer than a week, so I couldn't comment on the long term results.


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

I'm interested in your findings here... I'm seriously considering a niche to sit alongside the EK43 for the darker side of life moments...


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Could happily live with an L1 and as of this post there is some well looked after secondhand offerings available , so it would be hard not to consider these , is the LR better . ? Yes but surely you knew that answer beforehand , if you are saving a grand that's a lot of money towards something else , will the niche be up to the job of bringing out the best in either of these machines I can't answer , however I would hazard a guess you would want large flat burrs soon after whatever machine you choose .

feel free to flame me


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## damian (Feb 23, 2014)

Following this thread as I'm in a similar position - had my Gaggia Classic for 5yrs or so and overdue an upgrade. I've had my eye on a dual boiler synchronika for a while now though after seeing @arellim's L1 last year I'm seriously swaying towards a lever now haha!


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

MarkyP said:


> I'm interested in your findings here... I'm seriously considering a niche to sit alongside the EK43 for the darker side of life moments...


Not much help from my side since I had some darker roast beans which made me yuck! Niche didn't help that time.

Still have them... a comparison to a typical Square Mile roast, which aren't the lightest in the world of light roasts.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

damian said:


> Following this thread as I'm in a similar position - had my Gaggia Classic for 5yrs or so and overdue an upgrade. I've had my eye on a dual boiler synchronika for a while now though after seeing @arellim's L1 last year I'm seriously swaying towards a lever now haha!


where about are you Damian? Arelim is local to me


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## damian (Feb 23, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> where about are you Damian? Arelim is local to me


South Shields. I bought his Zenith off him last year and he was kind enough to make me a delicious coffee on his L1 when I went to collect  at the time I was more interested in the grinder purchase to make sure all was in order(I needn't have worried it was pristine) but it was only afterward I realised how great and how quiet the L1 was. There's something tactile about it all that appeals to me. I've recently moved house so worktop space isn't an issue anymore either. Decisions decisions...

Where are you at @dfk1? Do you have an L1 also?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

There is something quite special about a plumbed in l1


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The L1 when it is plumbed in is great and totally silent. The new ones though seem to shun being plumbed in, as they say with a rotary pump, why would you bother plumbing in? Andy bought his L1 after a visit to myself. I have had to get rid of mine as I moved and can not plumb in in the current kitchen. I do have a high end Orchestrale Nota though which offers an alternate to a dual boiler without the need to do cooling flushes. If ever you cross the water to the right side, you would be more than welcome!


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## damian (Feb 23, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> The L1 when it is plumbed in is great and totally silent. The new ones though seem to shun being plumbed in, as they say with a rotary pump, why would you bother plumbing in? Andy bought his L1 after a visit to myself. I have had to get rid of mine as I moved and can not plumb in in the current kitchen. I do have a high end Orchestrale Nota though which offers an alternate to a dual boiler without the need to do cooling flushes. If ever you cross the water to the right side, you would be more than welcome!


Ah he never mentioned I thought he had it from new. I'm guessing doing a water tank feed with one of those auto-doohickey things on the L1 isn't feasible? I'm not able to plum in currently though may be able to in the future when our kitchen gets redone. I'm not familiar with Orchestrale Nota, though I'll probably do some googling after this to check it out. Thanks for bringing it to my attention as a possible alternative


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

everyone will tell you the kit they have is the best, but I did not mean it in that way. I like things that are perhaps not so mainstream. An HX is a doddle to descale if you need to, only having one boiler. I am not saying all dual boilers are difficult to descale as some have drain taps. But, if you question what you need. A dual boiler lets you turn the steam boiler off which is great if you do not take milk, but not as good if you do. If you make just a couple of drinks at a time, then there is no real advantage to any machine. If you make several drinks on the trot on a regular basis then recovery time and temp feature, but, this is a coffee forum and so many of us have kit which we do not really need if the truth were known. You can have the best kit in the world but you still have to know how to use it!

The L1 and LR come tank fed but you can get plumb in kits for them, but to me, the whole point is to have a quiet machine, so I could never own a lever which was not plumbed in, if that makes sense


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Just disect the the orchestrales name!


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