# Bottomless PF on a Gaggia Classic



## bdt (Sep 13, 2011)

Just ordered my first mod last night.. the Rancillo steam wand which seems to be pretty universally recommended.

I also like the look of the bottomless PF but being a relative newbie I'd be lieing if I said I knew what the exact benefits of this were.

I'm not too happy with the quality of my espresso. It tastes OK but not much crema (could be down to average quality beans I've been using) and seems to pour too fast (nearer 15 secs than 30). From what I read am I right in saying the bottomless PF helps diagnose problems by giving you a clearer view of the espresso as it leaves the basket?


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## solwisesteve (Jul 19, 2012)

I've seen all the fuss over naked PFs but I'm not sure it's worth the expense.

Ref. not enough crema.... I have a classic as well and a few pointers from my own experience. First off make sure the grind isn't too course. I use an MDF grinder and it's set to number 3 which is quite fine. Also I use the single shot basket with 7 grams of coffee (I did some experiments to see how big a spoon of beans made 7 grams). Also tamp it well. I read a good article which said that you should tamp to 40lbs force. This is quite a force... nearly 3 stone! I tested tamping on some bathroom scales to gauge how much force to apply. Before I read this I was only only applying about 10lbs! I find, with the single shot basket, the tamped coffee now just fills the conical part of the basket. btw it goes without saying that you need to use a decent tamp. A single shot takes me about 20 odd seconds with blonding only happening for the last 5 seconds of the pour. I now get so much crema it's like a glass of Guinness!! I have to wait about a minute for the froth to go down before I can drink it!

You mentioned the beans.... yes good quality beans. When I first started out on the coffee road I used Illy beans and I thought that was good! I then switched to Hasbean for my coffee beans (several years ago now) and things got a whole lot better.  I've recently gone over to green beans from Hasbean and home roasting and things have improved another notch; I went through a 2Kg bag of beans experimenting but I think I'm there now


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## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

15 second pours and low crema will not be solved by a bottomless pf initially.

What grinder are you using.

You need to have fresh beans, an espresso grind and a good tamp as minimum to be getting at least an acceptable poor.

Only them may a bottomless pf help diagnose issues such as early blonding, poor distribution etc but these are likely to be the tweeks and fine tuning once you are somewhere near the target by employing said beans, grind, tamp.


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## solwisesteve (Jul 19, 2012)

This 'shot' took about 24 seconds. Piccy taken about a minute afterwards.


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## solwisesteve (Jul 19, 2012)

Sorry for the picture of a Brennan... no idea where that came from ;-)


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

That looks like a very light crema on your shot there Steve. Maybe that's a result of using only 7g of coffee.


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## solwisesteve (Jul 19, 2012)

It's darker in real life though maybe it was a little low on the qty of coffee  I used a heaped spoon but sometimes the spoon is a little more heaped than last time... I try to get as much on the spoon as possible but some does drop off before it reaches the grinder ;-) I suppose I need to get a bigger spoon...?


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

So you're only using a spoon to measure the beans before grinding? Why not just get some cheap scales and stick a glass on them, that way you know you're getting the same amount each time.


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## solwisesteve (Jul 19, 2012)

The other problem with measuring beans by volume is variations in the density of the beans depending upon type and roast level. I'm trying a FC roast at the moment which is a bit dryer than I normally do - that probably means the qty of beans might be on the low side of 7 grams....

In fact just done a measure on the office scales and it's JUST on 7 grams but they only have 1g resolution so it might be anywhere from 6.5g upwards.


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## solwisesteve (Jul 19, 2012)

chimpsinties said:


> So you're only using a spoon to measure the beans before grinding? Why not just get some cheap scales and stick a glass on them, that way you know you're getting the same amount each time.


Lazyness....? I'll look into the cheap scales but getting scales with the required resolution might not be THAT cheap?


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## solwisesteve (Jul 19, 2012)

Maybe scales aren't that expensive...

I assume

scales

Would do £4.40!!


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## Obsy (May 21, 2012)

It is possible to get good scales that go in increments of 0.01g cheap on eBay. Makes a different straight away knowing each dose is exact.


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## solwisesteve (Jul 19, 2012)

I'm sold... just looking now.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I got some from ebay that do .1g for about £5


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## bdt (Sep 13, 2011)

solwisesteve said:


> I've seen all the fuss over naked PFs but I'm not sure it's worth the expense.
> 
> Ref. not enough crema.... I have a classic as well and a few pointers from my own experience. First off make sure the grind isn't too course. I use an MDF grinder and it's set to number 3 which is quite fine. Also I use the single shot basket with 7 grams of coffee (I did some experiments to see how big a spoon of beans made 7 grams). Also tamp it well. I read a good article which said that you should tamp to 40lbs force. This is quite a force... nearly 3 stone! I tested tamping on some bathroom scales to gauge how much force to apply. Before I read this I was only only applying about 10lbs! I find, with the single shot basket, the tamped coffee now just fills the conical part of the basket. btw it goes without saying that you need to use a decent tamp. A single shot takes me about 20 odd seconds with blonding only happening for the last 5 seconds of the pour. I now get so much crema it's like a glass of Guinness!! I have to wait about a minute for the froth to go down before I can drink it!
> 
> You mentioned the beans.... yes good quality beans. When I first started out on the coffee road I used Illy beans and I thought that was good! I then switched to Hasbean for my coffee beans (several years ago now) and things got a whole lot better.  I've recently gone over to green beans from Hasbean and home roasting and things have improved another notch; I went through a 2Kg bag of beans experimenting but I think I'm there now


Yeah, so far I've tried various supermarket beans which have been OK and one lot I tried from a local roaster which produced much better crema than anything else I'd tried but I just didn't like the taste. Last week, my wife brought in some beans from Starbucks which I really didn't like at all. They seem to produce a really soggy puck (although a slightly finer grind seems to have helped with this) and the crema isn't anything to shout about either.

I deliberately wanted to try my hand with medicore beans first before trying premium like Has Bean or Square Mile - as much as anything to let me appreciate the difference. In my first month or so after getting the Gaggia, I don't think I'd have been able to notice the difference between premium and average quality beans.



Danm said:


> 15 second pours and low crema will not be solved by a bottomless pf initially.
> 
> What grinder are you using.
> 
> ...


Funny you mention that as I'm using an Iberital MC2, which is an acceptable grinder, but I've actually been wary of making the grind any finer as the sellers, Happy Donkey, included a note after I bought warning about grinding so fine that the burrs come into contact and become damaged. My ground beans are a very fine powder but how would you suggest I gauge whether I need to go finer without risking damaging the grinder?


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

If you're still getting gushers (15 sec shots) then you've not gone fine enough. There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to choke the Classic with an MC2.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Also, be wary of a really hard tamp. The harder you tamp the more likely you are to get a crack in the puck when the pressure starts to build and that just means a weak horrible gusher. Much better to rely on the fineness of grounds to form the seal that a hard tamp.


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## solwisesteve (Jul 19, 2012)

I followed the advice from...

http://www.home-barista.com/naked-extraction.html

I found it very informative.


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## bdt (Sep 13, 2011)

Cheers, will try and go a wee bit finer and see what effect this has then. I'm sure the MC2 manual suggests going down 1 x 360 degree turn per step.

Am going to invest in better scales too. Have digital ones just now but don't go down to 0.1g so may order better ones tonight. What weight would you suggest for a single shot then and also, should I be using the single or double basket?


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## bdt (Sep 13, 2011)

solwisesteve said:


> I followed the advice from...
> 
> http://www.home-barista.com/naked-extraction.html
> 
> I found it very informative.


I had a read of that too and thought it looked very useful. Partly why I was considering the bottomless PF


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## solwisesteve (Jul 19, 2012)

I use 7g and single shot basket though, reading above, some are suggesting a little more than 7g.


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## bdt (Sep 13, 2011)

I'll also need to check how consistent my dose is with the MC2 as I'm pretty sure it varies up to a gram or so each time going by the contents of the basket after grinding

Likewise, I could do with a bit of guidance as to what dose is recommended for a single shot as it seems pretty subjective


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## solwisesteve (Jul 19, 2012)

I don't know how you use the MC2 but on the gaggia mdf what I do is weigh the coffee beans for a single shot (okay... I have been measuring with a spoon but will now go over to weighting) and then grind till it's all done. Then pump out all of the coffee into the basket. Not sure if you can get away with that on the MC2. I try to use 7g but I might go up to 8g when my scales turn up! ;-)


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## bdt (Sep 13, 2011)

The MC2 has a knob on the side which lets you adjust the length of time it grinds for so, in theory, the dose should be the same amount every time. Once I get better scales I'll be able to test just how consistent this is


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## solwisesteve (Jul 19, 2012)

ditto.... I'm also going to test qty reproducibility when my scales turn up


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Most people weigh the amount of beans they want and then grind just that amount. Keeping loads of beans in your hopper might look cool but you're asking for them to go stale much quicker that way.

I personally (and so do quite a few others) use 18-19g of coffee in a double 18gt VST basket and get about 32g of coffee out. I think the temptation to use less coffee in a single to save coffee just results in a weak shot as you're tempted to draw it out too long.

Of course who could forget the "main" reason for a naked PF is that it just looks so cool


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## bdt (Sep 13, 2011)

Is funny you mention that as I don't normally weigh the beans out but probably throw 50 to 100g in the hopper at a time, then reseal the bag, so there should never really be beans lying in there for more than 24-48 hours depending how many coffees I think I'll be making that day.

On a slightly different subject, I'm sure I read on the bag that they suggest freezing the remaining beans when not in use to keep them fresh. I always meant to look that up and see if it's recommended as I don't think I've ever heard anyone mention that on here before... I could be wrong though.

True, a naked PF does look very cool but I thought that would've been crass to cite that as a reason for getting one


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

bdt said:


> I read on the bag that they suggest freezing the remaining beans when not in use to keep them fresh. I always meant to look that up and see if it's recommended as I don't think I've ever heard anyone mention that on here before... I could be wrong though.
> 
> 
> > Wow! - now thats a can of worms. I think you will find there are so many opinions on this that you would still have to decide yourself. If you follow HB you will find miles of threads on the subject


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I tried freezing beans for a while. I would get 4 bags at a time. Use one and freeze the other three. Then get one out as I needed it in the coming weeks. For me it made no noticeable difference to quality, if anything they tasted less good after freezing. So I stopped. Now I just leave them in the cupboard in an air tight box until I need them.

I personally think the risk is too great and the gain too little. It's a fresh produce at the end of the day. Think about freezing things like veggies or fruit. It can't be good for it. At the end of the day, unless you're buying kg's of the stuff with the intention of keeping it for months why bother (and if you're doing that why are you doing that, just buy fresh)


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## solwisesteve (Jul 19, 2012)

Actually.... current feeling is that frozen veg and fruit is actually better than so called fresh stuff. This is because frozen food is generally frozen within 24hrs but fresh stuff might be 3 days old before you even buy it. Then it sits for maybe another 2-3 days in the fridge so it's actually perhaps a week old before you eat it! Okay... if it's straight from your veg plot to your plate then okay.

Anyway I see your point ref. frozen beans. ;-)


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

But veg is flash frozen in factories. If you try and freeze your own veg it will not be nice. Mushy and tasteless. Yuk!

It's ok to store food after buying it anyway. As long as you store it right and don't allow it too long to go bad.


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## solwisesteve (Jul 19, 2012)

Oh I agree... Home freezing would almost certainly end up with a mess


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## Milesy (Mar 8, 2012)

Lots of fruit and veg are ruined by freezing and even chilling through. The water in the cells expand when frozen and burst the cells. This changes the texture completely.


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## Milesy (Mar 8, 2012)

bdt said:


> I don't normally weigh the beans out but probably throw 50 to 100g in the hopper at a time


I also like to keep the amount of beans I hop at a time consistant as with my grinder the weight of the beans above change the consistency of the grind slightly. So I wont get a shot from 20g hopped tasting the same as hopping 100g. If I do multiple coffes I hope each amount individually.


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## bdt (Sep 13, 2011)

That's a good point. I had noticed getting a smallish dose when the hopper's down to maybe 20 to 30g of beans but hadn't considered it actually affecting the grind size too.


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## Milesy (Mar 8, 2012)

bdt said:


> That's a good point. I had noticed getting a smallish dose when the hopper's down to maybe 20 to 30g of beans but hadn't considered it actually affecting the grind size too.


Depends on the grinder as well. The MC2 is gravity fed which means it is the weight above which keeps it feeding through. This is also why I have made a small home made hopper which fits just the amount of beans I need. A single dose just "popcorns" about using the stock hopper.


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## solwisesteve (Jul 19, 2012)

Scales have arrived. Looks like I'm using 9-10g of coffee.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

solwisesteve said:


> Scales have arrived. Looks like I'm using 9-10g of coffee.


And this was in a single basket? yes?

You're simply going to have to grind finer as you're already up dosing.

Why not try a double basket with about 18g in and 32g out in 25 secs. They're supposed to be much easier to master.


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## solwisesteve (Jul 19, 2012)

Yes I use a single basket but the shot time is fine.... typically 23,24,25 seconds. I think it was the initial poster that had a short pull.


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## drgekko (May 19, 2013)

Just noticed this thread and thought I'd share my first day today of using a naked portafilter - I can't comment as to whether my espresso tastes any different but it looks beautiful oozing out the bottom!! Just like the numerous youtube videos. Honestly, it just appears so satisfying and the 26-27 second rule is working a treat (I think this is mainly due to getting the grind consistency right - that's a pain in the ass!!). So not sure if it makes any difference to the taste but aesthetically, it looks awesome during the extraction! Lol.


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## Don_your_hat (May 13, 2013)

I'm a big fan of the naked portafilter. Not only do the pours look great but it allows you to diagnose problems and inconsistencies with your technic, such as uneven tamping. Like drgekko, I can't say that I notice any difference in taste because of the portafilter alone although my palette and technique probably isn't refined enough in any case.


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