# Help me turn these beans into something drinkable?!



## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

*I need your help team! *I have completed a major upgrade from my cheap Dualit appliance to a Specialita & Gaggia Classic and read a bunch of stuff. Barring a decent pair of scales I think I have removed every obstacle to a lovely espresso aside from this here talentless barista 😔

There's about 8 mins of video here. Please feel free to rip me to shreds - I am not proud! - but I do want this investment to produce coffee that is substantially better than the Dualit! At the moment I would rather drink instant 😳

(The only thing I forgot to do was film the puck/cake - it do have a small puddle on top at the end of the process)

Part 1 of 5 : The Gear

Part 2 of 5 : A word on OPV & pressure

Part 3 of 5 : Recipe & Prep

Part 4 of 5 : The Grind

Part 5 of 5 : The (Disappointing!) Results


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Ok.

So your dose weight is unknown. Approx 18g, which could be short or over, and could contain coffee from the previous grind which is especially bad if you've changed grind settings...

It took 28 seconds to pull the shot. Time from when you start the pump.

You're aiming for a 1:2 ratio presumably i.e 18g 36g out...or 18g in 40g out. It doesn't really matter.

First thing to say is stop single dosing the grinder. By pushing the flap over the beans you don't "stop popcorning"....you can't see it anymore but the effects of a reducing weight pushing the beans into the burrs is still there whether you have a flap or anything else stopping the beans bouncing up.

Secondly weigh your output. The timer can be used to reliably get your dose once you know how long it takes to grind, and if you're a little short a quick pulse will top you up. But you have to weigh the grinds out of the grinder and also purge old grinds from around the burrs and in the chute.

Prep: Use the cocktail stick or whatever it is to properly stir the grinds around the basket, tap it once on the counter, remove the funnel and tamp level.

After filling the hopper and ensuring you have 18g in the basket pull a shot and see how long it takes at the same grind setting, and how it tastes. You might find you need to grind coarser. It's perfectly possible the coffee you're making is both bitter and sour. There are plenty of things to try after you've done this, e.g. pulling a longer ratio may help balance out the flavours but for now, use the grinder properly and weigh the output, if that means grinding into the basket before clipping it into the PF and continuing with the prep then do that.


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

Hi Rob - many thanks for the post. I now have better scales and have measured the output of the grinder (now with filled hopper) accurately at 18g. I tweaked the grinder back a notch towards 'coarser' and this gave me 36g coffee in 30 secs exactly. Still very sour though, so I need to decide on next variable to change.

(attached photos of puck & shot in case useful)


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Try increasing the ratio and keep the grind setting the same. Pull a 1:3 ratio and see if it is improved.


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

18g : 54g Took 32secs. Perhaps marginally improved, but a long way off drinkable.

(I thought the end/blonder part of the shot was the most acidic so an increased ratio seemed counter-intuitive to my novice brain?)

If the problem turns out to be the beans we'll soon know because I am nearly out of Peruvians and close to moving to Rwanda!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

18:36 in 30 seconds

18:54 in 32 seconds

So what happened there?

I doubt you got 36 grams in 30 seconds and additional 18g in 2 seconds...that would be a flow rate of 9g/s which the machine probably can't even output without resistance.

Did you purge about 3g from the grinder after adjusting coarser for your first shot?

Next step would be to try grinding finer. That could have been the first step but I got the impression you were at the limit based on your previous comments.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What's coffee are you using , how fresh ? ( sorrry can't view videos at work )


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## Stox (Jul 19, 2020)

You haven't said what beans you're using, what you're expecting from them and why.

I run a similar setup to yours and, over 6 months, I have tried around 24 different single origin beans from 8 roasters; mainly local to me in Sussex. Generally I have found that I can get something I like out of any of the beans.

The only exception was 2 beans in 4 bags from one particular roaster. The descriptions on their website ticked all the boxes but when I opened the bags the beans looked a lot darker than I expected and, no matter what I did, I couldn't get anything I liked out of them. Since this roaster has been around for some time I assume there are people out there who like what they produce and are keeping them in business.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> What's coffee are you using , how fresh ? ( sorrry can't view videos at work )





Stox said:


> You haven't said what beans you're using, what you're expecting from them and why.
> 
> I run a similar setup to yours and, over 6 months, I have tried around 24 different single origin beans from 8 roasters; mainly local to me in Sussex. Generally I have found that I can get something I like out of any of the beans.
> 
> The only exception was 2 beans in 4 bags from one particular roaster. The descriptions on their website ticked all the boxes but when I opened the bags the beans looked a lot darker than I expected and, no matter what I did, I couldn't get anything I liked out of them. Since this roaster has been around for some time I assume there are people out there who like what they produce and are keeping them in business.


 Coffees detailed at 1:04 in the first video.

Pharmacie Peru Espresso Roast currently. Blackberry crumble & black tea with hazelnut & chocolate orange syrupy finish *Type*: Caturra, typica, castillo, catimor
*Altitude*: 1670-1715 MASL

Roasted 19th Jan so might improve with further resting.

I'd expect it requires a fine grind and probably a long ratio but based on the chattering sound the grinder makes when it's done grinding the beans I thought there wasn't much room for further adjustment finer.

For my palate if I were trying to dial this in I'd dissect the flavour notes as Blackberry crumble (tart, sweet, heavy/buttery body) & black tea with hazelnut (dry, fragrant, maybe slightly floral) & chocolate orange syrupy finish (pretty much as it says. Acidity gives way to sweetness, chocolate aftertaste). But YMMV.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Just throwing this out there, is this the very start of your espresso career?

Do you regularly go to a *good *coffee shop and drink modern style lighter roast coffee?

The reason I ask is I find a lot of people just starting out can find this style of coffee with lively acidity not to their taste. I think as people progress very often the grow to really appreciate it and seek it out. Initially you might like to give a more traditional style roast a try that your palate may be more accustomed to?

A shameless plug but I think our Chocolate Point (medium dark) or new Twilight Blend (dark, classic style) might suit be of interest or check out some of the mahogany roast offerings from Coffee Compass.

I could be totally off the mark of course and you just need to plod on and nail the coffee you have.

Final thing, make sure to stir your espresso.

David


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## Stox (Jul 19, 2020)

Sorry - didn't check the first video.

Pharmacie are my local roaster (walking distance) and I've never had anything I didn't like from there. I finished a couple of bags of their Peru El Palto espresso roast last week and am absolutely loving a Colombia Franklin MUÑOZ (sadly no longer available) at the moment, but these were all purchased/roasted before Christmas - they've been in the supplied bags until I started using them earlier this week.

All using a fairly typical 17-18g in/35+g out in around 30 secs recipe, but I reckon I could go longer on the brew ratio.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Stox said:


> Pharmacie are my local roaster (walking distance) and I've never had anything I didn't like from there. I finished a couple of bags of their Peru El Palto espresso roast last week and am absolutely loving a Colombia Franklin MUÑOZ (sadly no longer available) at the moment, but these were all purchased/roasted before Christmas. All using a fairly typical 17-18g in/35+g out in around 30 secs recipe.


 What equipment are you using?


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## Stox (Jul 19, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> What equipment are you using?


 Classic Pro with 9bar OPV spring, some temperature monitoring (NOT a PID - I've described this elsewhere), and a bottomless portafilter with LM 18g basket. Ancient Ceado E37 modded for single dosing.

So not hugely different to the OP's kit. I'm pretty sure I was working with the same beans. Even when I screwed something up (e.g. forgot to start the timer or found the scales had timed-out when I pulled the shot) I still got something I liked in the cup.


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Just throwing this out there, is this the very start of your espresso career?
> 
> Do you regularly go to a *good *coffee shop and drink modern style lighter roast coffee?
> 
> ...


 Thanks David. Yes, this is first attempt with first ever bag of decent beans. Based on Stox's feedback above I think the beans should have been a reasonable selection but I confess I initially thought "the fresher the better" before I came across "de-gassing" so maybe that's a difference here.

I bought two bags from them and have exhausted the Peruvian now, so I will now need to dial-in again with these Rwandans. After that I will certainly consider your recommendation 

Yes, I knew to stir, thanks.

(PS: I already have a Motta levelling tool on order from Black Cat so my technique can only improve  )


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

Stox said:


> Classic Pro with 9bar OPV spring, some temperature monitoring (NOT a PID - I've described this elsewhere), and a bottomless portafilter with LM 18g basket. Ancient Ceado E37 modded for single dosing.
> 
> So not hugely different to the OP's kit. I'm pretty sure I was working with the same beans. Even when I screwed something up (e.g. forgot to start the timer or found the scales had timed-out when I pulled the shot) I still got something I liked in the cup.


 Shame about this damn 'rona or I'd invite you round to give me a tutorial! 🦠😔


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## Stox (Jul 19, 2020)

CrazySnakeUncle said:


> Shame about this damn 'rona or I'd invite you round to give me a tutorial! 🦠😔


 I didn't go through the videos in detail but it doesn't read like you're doing anything spectacularly wrong: it could just be that you don't agree with the way Pharmacie select and roast their coffee.

I didn't start doing my own espresso at home until a bit after the first lockdown started. Early on I bought a bag or two online from Small Batch Coffee, a well known local chain. Their roasting operation is more geared to supplying their cafes but they usually have a couple of single origins on sale and I had used these, pre-ground, for Aeropress with some success in past. At the time all they offered online was to place an order "and we'll send you something from our current selection of single-origin coffee". I thought I would support a local business and put in an order, but what they sent me was the blend that they use in their cafes and, as expected, I didn't particularly like it.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Again total newbie here, so definitely I should not be giving advice but looking at part 5,

- is the liquid not coming out a bit too early? I think I counted 4 seconds or so

- there's definitely some channeling going on from 0:49 in the video

Both of these to me (again, TOTAL NEWBIE who doesn't even own a machine yet), in combination with the gauge saying 11bar (despite the OPV spring being cut shorter) would suggest that the pressure gauge is right and that pressure might be too high.

Of course, total speculation, and for the third time, I'm a newbie. I've only mentioned since nobody said anything, so I'm partly suggesting, partly wanting to understand if I'm wrong in my analysis.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Baffo said:


> Again total newbie here, so definitely I should not be giving advice but looking at part 5,
> 
> - is the liquid not coming out a bit too early? I think I counted 4 seconds or so
> 
> ...


 The things you've noticed are more likely due to grind problems relating to single dosing a small flat burr grinder with a high altitude medium/light roasted coffee.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> The things you've noticed are more likely due to grind problems relating to single dosing a small flat burr grinder with a high altitude medium/light roasted coffee.


 Would you mind giving a bit of colour as to why? I can also do with a "Google it, there's plenty of information" or be directed to a link. I thought that light roasts would need to be ground finer (compared to darker roasts) to allow for better extraction, and the channeling would perhaps be counterintuitive in that case.

(Again, total newbie wanting to learn and I'm not challenging your thesis, only curious)


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Baffo said:


> Would you mind giving a bit of colour as to why? I can also do with a "Google it, there's plenty of information" or be directed to a link. I thought that light roasts would need to be ground finer (compared to darker roasts) to allow for better extraction, and the channeling would perhaps be counterintuitive in that case.
> 
> (Again, total newbie wanting to learn and I'm not challenging your thesis, only curious)


 There are a few threads on the subject you'll find with the forum search function.

It's thought to be a general that you need to grind finer for lighter roasts compared to darker ones but it's not always the case as it's related to solubility which is affected by density too. Roast level has more of an impact and given the same bean the lighter the roast the finer the grind will need to be.

Grinders produce a range of particle sizes, when you single dose the average grind size progressively drifts coarser as the dose is ground up, so by single dosing you can never grind as fine as you can running with a full hopper or weight pushing the beans into the burrs consistently. Channeling is related to poor distribution or tamping, or an unusually inconsistent grind size; it could be caused by clumping with very fine grinds, blocking of filter holes, or uneven water distribution if the machine isn't level or the shower screen is damaged or blocked. If you grind too fine extraction will go backwards, and you can get sour shots with a lot of channeling. It's possible that's happening here but it hasn't been confirmed the grinder was properly purged of old grinds between grind size adjustments and quoted shot times so it's not clear.


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> ...It's possible that's happening here but it hasn't been confirmed the grinder was properly purged of old grinds between grind size adjustments and quoted shot times so it's not clear.


 No, I was not running any sort of purge between changes to grind setting. I knew the Mignon was known to have low retention and, because I was initially trying to single-shot dose and it had stop producing grounds, I figured it was 'empty'.

I cannot explain the only 2 second difference when moving from 1:2 to 1:3 ratio other than to say, since these were my first attempts, my consistency of workflow must need attention.

I'll be dialling in again tomorrow with new beans and will rectify both these points. Onwards to the "God Shot"!


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

Hi, @CrazySnakeUncle I'm running exactly the same set up as yourself and have destroyed several bags of good beans before myself and the machine gelled. I'd advise three things:

Firstly I'd load the hopper to approx halfway, the weight of beans in the hopper acts in a similar way to gentle pressure on wood being fed into a bench saw, it stops it kicking out, this gives a more steady and even grind. Fwiw if you adjust the grinder I'd run a minimum of 3 second grind to clear the previous grind setting before you're anywhere near the new setting, I keep the single cup setting just for this.

Secondly, buy a kilo bag of @BlackCatCoffee Chocolate Point or similar, it's easy-ish to dial in and with a kilo you don't fret over the bag disappearing rapidly when you're getting it wrong, it helps psychologically believe me.

Lastly and possibly most importantly, little has been said about water temperature, by all means flush water, but keep flushing until the brew light goes off, then wait until it comes back on - then immediately press the steam button on for 7/8 seconds, that gave me a perfect water temperature for most of the coffees I've used and liked, Red Brick, Sweetshop, Chocolate point and some of the Rave espresso blends, I'm not sure if that'll work for what your using currently, but maybe the above will help enough to give you the confidence in your process and you'll be ok playing with the Ethiopians etc

Its not easy being a beginner at this lark, it's like walking into a pitch black room and everyone shouting advice where to go, but you have no idea where any of the furniture is, and barking your shins and bumping into things is the way you learn, steep learning curve indeed. Good luck and fingers crossed for you, DG.


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

@Deegee Great post - thanks 😂


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

Deegee said:


> Lastly and possibly most importantly, little has been said about water temperature, by all means flush water, but keep flushing until the brew light goes off, then wait until it comes back on - then immediately press the steam button on for 7/8 seconds, that gave me a perfect water temperature for most of the coffees I've used ...


 Quick Q @Deegee: Do you have a PID? I thought the PID negated the need to temperature surf like you describe. Plus, the brew light never goes off - it keeps flashing - because my PID is battling hard to regulate and keeps 'pulsing' (I think)


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

Yes I do have a PID now, but only fitted it a few weeks ago, up until that point I was temp surfing, my apologies, I thought you had a std machine with no pid, I didn't pick that up on the videos.


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

Resurrecting this thread. I have improved a few parts of my 'process' (incl. new scales to weigh dose/yield, distribution tool) but not seeing improved results and *not sure what variable to focus on next?*

I am no longer 'single-dosing' through the Specialita and have the hopper half-filled.

I do a 3 second purge through the grinder after each change of setting.

All tests in the results attached are using Chocolate Point but this is the 3rd bean I have tried now and others have said they get good results with all three, so I am kinda discounting that.

Knowing that crema is acidic I have been scooping this off before (always) stirring and tasting because the overriding result I get is sourness with a harshness on swallowing.

I have tried grind settings giving brew times in the range 21-51 secs.

I have experimented with temperatures at 91, 93 and 95 degrees (majority of tests at 93)

I have played (a little) with ratios

All tests done with 9 bar OPV spring.

I am not seeing channelling through the bottomless filter - I had this early on so I am pretty confident the flow through the puck is good/as expected.

I have tried to be methodical - changing one thing at a time - but I concede that might be hard to discern from this image(!)

*Where would you good people go next with this?*

*cc: @BlackCatCoffee*


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Love your approach.

I would suggest that CPB is best around 14 days post roast though.

I also find that it is generally better with a lower brew temperature say around 90 ish. 95 is very hot for even a light roasted coffee, I cannot imagine good results up that high.

You may like to extend the brew ratio out if you are finding it quite harsh. I would suggest for your next try to go to 1:2.5 90c over around 32 seconds. Give it a good stir. If upon tasting it isn't for you then just as a little exercise, pop in a touch of hot water and report the findings on that.

For reference, what coffee have you found you are enjoying as espresso?

David


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Love your approach.
> 
> I would suggest that CPB is best around 14 days post roast though.
> 
> ...


 Ah, interesting you say that because it is coming out a bit "fizzy". I will give it some time.

I will also persevere with some more lower-temperature testing and 'longer' ratios, since I've only tried one shot at 91 degrees and only one or two longer ratios to-date.

In terms of comparisons, I have for a long time only been putting supermarket Lazazza beans through a Dualit Espressivo appliance with pressurised basket at home, so this set-up is quite a departure(!). But I have been drinking espresso from various outlets/restaurants for a *l o n g* time so I do know that I am doing something wrong here that the professionals do not do


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## Fiyo (Oct 25, 2020)

@CrazySnakeUncle Just wanted to let you know, I feel your pain. I appear to be on a near identical journey but with different kit. Like you I'm a newbie to home espresso and am currently resting a bag of chocolate point after going through 3 other bags of beans (Rave Colombia Suarez, Grindhouse Bravilian blend and, Monkeyboard Brazilian) out of which I managed one decent shot but why it was decent? no idea, other than it was made to try out a bottomless portafilter that had just arrived so the shot was just chucked together without much thought just to have a go. didn't weigh it or time it and bam! it was smooth, nutty chocolaty and a massive SURPRISE but haven't been able to replicate it since! . I have records just like yours adjusting one thing at a time and am constantly reading to try and improve technique. I almost cried when I read the analogy to walking through a room in the dark. That is so what it feels like. Still that fluke tasty shot reassures me that I can taste the difference and it is possible on the kit I have so going to keep trying. Will be watching your progress with interest.


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

Fiyo said:


> ...that fluke tasty shot reassures me that I can taste the difference and it is possible on the kit I have so going to keep trying...


 I'm so jealous that you got a drinkable shot! 😫😭🤣


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## Stox (Jul 19, 2020)

One diagnosis strategy you can try is to line up some shot-glasses (or some other conveniently sized receptacle) on the drip-tray and then divide your shot into fixed time segments and pull each time segment into a glass. e.g. for a 40 second shot pull 4 x 10 second segments into 4 shot glasses, shifting a new glass under the group-head at 10 second intervals. Then you can taste each segment individually to see where the bits you do and don't like occur in the full shot.


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

Stox said:


> One diagnosis strategy you can try is to line up some shot-glasses (or some other conveniently sized receptacle) on the drip-tray and then divide your shot into fixed time segments ...


 Ah - you cunning fox - good idea - that might help prove/disprove my hunch about the end-of-shot crema....🦊


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Love your approach.
> 
> I would suggest that CPB is best around 14 days post roast though.
> 
> ...


 Interesting on the 90 temp setting I recently sent a pm and a question on your website about temp and heard nothing.

My pid is set 96 but I notice temps at 93-94

Will try lower 👍


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Tinkstar said:


> Interesting on the 90 temp setting I recently sent a pm and a question on your website about temp and heard nothing.
> 
> My pid is set 96 but I notice temps at 93-94
> 
> Will try lower 👍


 I have sent you a PM.

David


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Stox said:


> One diagnosis strategy you can try is to line up some shot-glasses (or some other conveniently sized receptacle) on the drip-tray and then divide your shot into fixed time segments and pull each time segment into a glass. e.g. for a 40 second shot pull 4 x 10 second segments into 4 shot glasses, shifting a new glass under the group-head at 10 second intervals. Then you can taste each segment individually to see where the bits you do and don't like occur in the full shot.


 While,this sounds like great advice , practically I've never found it helpful, a shot is the balance of extraction and dilution . 
are people cutting out the start of shots that may taste very strong for instance ?


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

Mrboots2u said:


> While,this sounds like great advice , practically I've never found it helpful, a shot is the balance of extraction and dilution .
> are people cutting out the start of shots that may taste very strong for instance ?


 Damn! You pulled the rug from under me before I even got to try it (once the day is past a certain time I have to suspend testing else risk bouncing off the walls with caffeine overload 😮 )


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

CrazySnakeUncle said:


> Resurrecting this thread. I have improved a few parts of my 'process' (incl. new scales to weigh dose/yield, distribution tool) but not seeing improved results and *not sure what variable to focus on next?*
> 
> I am no longer 'single-dosing' through the Specialita and have the hopper half-filled.
> 
> ...


 Add in a column for overall taste score. It makes it easier to sort the sheet by how much you liked each shot (which is kind of the purpose behind making them).

Try and be objective, like a shot that's a bit off wouldn't get a really low score (like black Nescafe), a well made Costa would be better than neutral, almost nothing gets top score (unless everything you buy is carefully chosen & perfectly pulled). E.g. I score out of 9, you could use 10, but then 5.5 becomes neutral (neither like/dislike).

Experiment more with ratio. Like 1:3 or 4 at "2.00" grind setting.


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

MWJB said:


> Add in a column for overall taste score. It makes it easier to sort the sheet by how much you liked each shot (which is kind of the purpose behind making them)...


 Thanks. I will certainly do that but, frankly, it's moot right now because I am stuck at a 2.

One thing I have not mentioned is that, post-shot, there is a small amount of puddling on top of the puck. *Are we expecting the puck to be dry?*

I am going to whack the 6.5bar spring in and give reduced pressure a try - I feel like I am currently so far off that I need to change a "major variable" and I'm wondering now if I am over-tamping &/or too fine and - whereas I was expecting the machine to choke if I did this - I'm instead getting throughput but with poor extraction (under or over I could not tell you).

(I still have to let these beans de-gas a bit more and try some of these longer ratio suggestions)

Expect a new spreadsheet in due course! 🤓


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

CrazySnakeUncle said:


> Are we expecting the puck to be dry?


 Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't mean much.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

My better tasting espressos have a soggy puck, if the puck is dry it's always been bitter..


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

OK, I'm back but sadly no further forward. Beans still need a bit of de-gas time but longer ratios have not helped.

One theory I had was that we have a (whole house) water softener so I did some tests with the (filtered) hard water that bypasses the salt blocks. That made no difference.

Next theory I am focussing on is that I have been blindly trusting the reading on my newly-installed PID. I just tested the water coming through the PF (no coffee) using the thermometer from my milk jug. Even with the PID set at 100 degrees C this water is never above 70 degrees C (the needle never gets beyond the 'green zone' recommend for milk). I'm not sure what sort of temperature drop one would expect after the brew head but I would not anticipate 30 degrees? I appreciate the milk jug thermometer is probably not super accurate but, even so.

In case there's someone out there using Mr Shades' PID that can advise, then here are my settings, along with my latest 'history of failure(!)'

Cc: @MrShades


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

If your water is low in alkalinity your shots will taste sharp/acidic. I don't know anything about filters but filtering the water could well be reducing alkalinity...so how have you come to the conclusion water has been eliminated as the issue, through testing it for alkalinity and hardness?

You're grinding coarser when your shots are sour which strikes me as odd, unless you're obviously grinding too fine which from the descriptions it doesn't appear you are. By grinding coarser you're decreasing extraction. If espresso extraction goes like this Balanced low --> Sour --> Balanced normal-high ---> Bitter. Gritty, silty --> Sour what you're probably doing is trying to go from the first sour zone to the low EY balanced zone.

If you pulled a 1:3 and it was still sour pull a 1:4 and a 1:5 and see at what point it stops being sour. There are things that don't really make sense, like you pull the 1:3 at the same grind setting as the next shot at a 1:2. The 1:3 is less sour than the previous 1:2. You give the preceding 1:2 a taste score of 2, the 1:3 a taste score of 3, and the next two 1:2 ratio shots with the same grind setting a taste score of 2 while noting "taste improved". Without changing grind setting and moving from a 1:3 to a 1:2 I'd expect to see more sourness, not less, unless you dropped extraction to the point you were avoiding even getting into the sour zone as you would with a tight ristretto.

RE temp, did you stick the probe into the portafilter after letting it heat up in the machine or did you put the probe in a cup and measure the temp of the water after it had fallen from the portafilter to a cup? If you test with a cup you'll get a big temp drop, you'll also be able to compare with a kettle if you pour from the same height and at the same speed.

Also the beans could still need to rest for about a week more.


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> If your water is low in alkalinity your shots will taste sharp/acidic. I don't know anything about filters but filtering the water could well be reducing alkalinity...so how have you come to the conclusion water has been eliminated as the issue, through testing it for alkalinity and hardness?
> 
> You're grinding coarser when your shots are sour which strikes me as odd, unless you're obviously grinding too fine which from the descriptions it doesn't appear you are. By grinding coarser you're decreasing extraction. If espresso extraction goes like this Balanced low --> Sour --> Balanced normal-high ---> Bitter. Gritty, silty --> Sour what you're probably doing is trying to go from the first sour zone to the low EY balanced zone.
> 
> ...


 Thanks Rob.

When I said I'd eliminated water, I meant that I'd tried the softened mains that runs through the softener (salt blocks) AND the separate feed for drinking water that bypasses those blocks and runs to a (3-way) kitchen tap via a separate cylinder filter. So, for sure, it is easy for me to do further tests with bottled water and bypass both.

I am almost certainly over-analysing with the ratings of '2' and '3' - none of these shots are drinkable - there is no real sense of moving towards something better. At first I was unsure if I was getting 'bitter' or 'sour' but I'm pretty confident this is sourness which led me to believe under-extraction, hence why I turned my attention to temps.

Whilst it might not appear to be the most methodical test plan I have stuck to changing one thing at a time and have now tried grind settings in the range "1.4" through "2.25", temps in the (PID indicated) range of 90 through 100, ratios in the range 1:1.9 through 1:3 and brew times in the range 18 through 51 secs.

I'll try those longer ratios (1:4, 1:5) as you suggest, but at 1:3 they were already getting weak/over-diluted. My understanding was that the end of a shot was where the acidity came from so that's why a reigned back at 1:3.

Temperature test was a jug under the empty PF. For comparison, boiling water from a kettle into the milk jug hits 85. So a reading 15 degrees 'low' but still 15 degrees more than water passed through the brew head when the PID is set to 100. Dodgy science, but that might indicate the brew temp at the puck is well under 90?

Beans - Yep, they are quite fizzy still.

So, in summary, next up I will try:

- bottled water
- longer ratios
- finer grinds
- (de-gas the beans another 7 days)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Your 1:3 shots shouldn't be silty, nor taking 45+ seconds.

Your grinder adjustments seem to flip flop, coarser, then finer then coarser. Ratios go short, long, short.

I'm not seeing an objective, or methodical path.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

CrazySnakeUncle said:


> When I said I'd eliminated water, I meant that I'd tried the softened mains that runs through the softener (salt blocks) AND the separate feed for drinking water that bypasses those blocks and runs to a (3-way) kitchen tap via a separate cylinder filter. So, for sure, it is easy for me to do further tests with bottled water and bypass both.
> 
> I'll try those longer ratios (1:4, 1:5) as you suggest, but at 1:3 they were already getting weak/over-diluted. My understanding was that the end of a shot was where the acidity came from so that's why a reigned back at 1:3.
> 
> ...


 If your water is hard alkalinity isn't going to be low I just don't know what filtering does, which was my point. If water is high alkalinity it should be muting acidity but maybe it makes getting a balanced shot much harder. i.e. it could go from sour, to flat and dull, to chalky and bitter. Water quality is an easy to thing to sort out if you mix volvic and ashbeck or something.

I suggest the longer ratios purely as a diagnostic to see if you ever get past the sourness. I've not heard about acidity coming out later in a shot and it makes no sense to me to think of things like that.

Boiling water from a kettle, poured at the same rate from the same height will heat the jug and thermometer up faster than 93c water from the group so you can't compare a 15c loss to a 25c loss and say there must be something wrong. The flow rate and height are key, as is the starting temp of the milk jug and thermometer. I wouldn't be surprised to see 75-80c in a cup from the group.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

CrazySnakeUncle said:


> I'll try those longer ratios (1:4, 1:5) as you suggest, but at 1:3 they were already getting weak/over-diluted. My understanding was that the end of a shot was where the acidity came from so that's why a reigned back at 1:3.


 Under-extracted shots will be weaker than ideal, at any ratio.

Acidity/balance come from the total shot, based on grind & ratio. Not from any particular phase. You can still under-extract at 1:6, or more.

Very low extractions can be balanced but simple, slightly low can be overly sour & occasionally have bitterness too, "big hump" shots are balanced, with clarity & interesting acidity (a plus, not a fault).


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

If the puck is wet it may be worth checking your fill height. A so called 18g basket can hold a range of weights on different machines. Easiest way is to prepare and tamp as usual making sure it's level, place either a 5p or 20p coin on, fit remove and look at the impression the coin leaves. You want rather slight to none. Only problem is that if you get none you need to add to find out. If when actually used there is slight signs of compression against the shower screen that is generally ok but too much and extraction reduces quickly. As weight is decreased problems can crop up - you might be having one of them.

I've not weighed beans into a mignon but the point about popcorning is correct but usually not that extreme in terms of effects. The usual problem is making sure all of the grinds come out, puffs via a rubber camera lens hood to blow them out is pretty popular. Not a mod I have seen done on your grinder and probably suites ones with a wide throat such as Mazzer. With the hopper on with beans and timed doses instead the grind setting usually needs to be coarser. It would be rather unusual if it wasn't. I have managed to keep a dose pretty constant via a timer but as unlike a cafe we don't make huge numbers each one needs checking. The other option is to set one shot time for a top up dose and the other a bit short. If the top up has a manual over ride practice can make perfect.

😅 There is the possibility you have another problem as well. New grinders generally need some running in. They can tend to produce more fines until they have ground several Kg. I've found 1kg can make a difference but more is ideal. Start coarse and eventually try espresso levels visits more and more. Any junk beans will do and watch you don't overheat the grinder. Maybe some big Amazon bags. Usually fairly fresh for french press beans.  Tuning beans like that can be fun as all needs to be thrown at them maybe even overloading but results are usually crap.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

CrazySnakeUncle said:


> OK, I'm back but sadly no further forward. Beans still need a bit of de-gas time but longer ratios have not helped.
> 
> One theory I had was that we have a (whole house) water softener so I did some tests with the (filtered) hard water that bypasses the salt blocks. That made no difference.
> 
> ...


 Your Psb needs to be -8.0 and not -0.8 - so it's going to be at least 7.2c too cold.

its very difficult to accurately determine brew water temp - and using any normal thermometer and normal cup/jug is never going to work properly unfortunately.


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

MWJB said:


> Your 1:3 shots shouldn't be silty, nor taking 45+ seconds.
> 
> Your grinder adjustments seem to flip flop, coarser, then finer then coarser. Ratios go short, long, short.
> 
> I'm not seeing an objective, or methodical path.


 What's your expectation/guideline for a 1:3 shot?

"...flip-flop..." I started very methodically, bringing brew-time gradually down from 51 secs to 21. I think apparent 'flip flopping' in the latter tests arises because I began experimenting with other variables - OPV spring, water source, temps - and trying a few recipes each time. But since a) this approach has gotten me nowhere(!) and b) it makes it hard for people here to advise me I will "pick and stick" now and take the shots through the full range to see if I can pick out the "Balanced low --> Sour --> Balanced normal-high ---> Bitter. Gritty, silty --> Sour " described by Rob.


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

MrShades said:


> Your Psb needs to be -8.0 and not -0.8 - so it's going to be at least 7.2c too cold.
> 
> its very difficult to accurately determine brew water temp - and using any normal thermometer and normal cup/jug is never going to work properly unfortunately.


 Thanks - turns out there is a typo on my spreadsheet/screenshot 🙄. Sadly (because I thought you had found the silver bullet) the Psb is set to *-08.0 *(correctly).


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

ajohn said:


> If the puck is wet it may be worth checking your fill height. A so called 18g basket can hold a range of weights on different machines. Easiest way is to prepare and tamp as usual making sure it's level, place either a 5p or 20p coin on, fit remove and look at the impression the coin leaves. You want rather slight to none. Only problem is that if you get none you need to add to find out. If when actually used there is slight signs of compression against the shower screen that is generally ok but too much and extraction reduces quickly. As weight is decreased problems can crop up - you might be having one of them.
> 
> I've not weighed beans into a mignon but the point about popcorning is correct but usually not that extreme in terms of effects. The usual problem is making sure all of the grinds come out, puffs via a rubber camera lens hood to blow them out is pretty popular. Not a mod I have seen done on your grinder and probably suites ones with a wide throat such as Mazzer. With the hopper on with beans and timed doses instead the grind setting usually needs to be coarser. It would be rather unusual if it wasn't. I have managed to keep a dose pretty constant via a timer but as unlike a cafe we don't make huge numbers each one needs checking. The other option is to set one shot time for a top up dose and the other a bit short. If the top up has a manual over ride practice can make perfect.
> 
> 😅 There is the possibility you have another problem as well. New grinders generally need some running in. They can tend to produce more fines until they have ground several Kg. I've found 1kg can make a difference but more is ideal. Start coarse and eventually try espresso levels visits more and more. Any junk beans will do and watch you don't overheat the grinder. Maybe some big Amazon bags. Usually fairly fresh for french press beans.  Tuning beans like that can be fun as all needs to be thrown at them maybe even overloading but results are usually crap.


 Thanks for the fill height tip - I'll try that 2moro (bit late for coffee experiments now 😳)

I can't be far off 1kg of beans having gone through this puppy now but I have some leftover supermarket beans so some extra "running in" is worth a try too.

There is a 3D printed single-dose mod for the Specialita and (in the US at least) a bellows to match, but I am sticking with the hopper for now - there is enough gadgetry here already not working in harmony!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

CrazySnakeUncle said:


> What's your expectation/guideline for a 1:3 shot?


 My expectation for a 1:3 shot is balanced, reflective of the notes, but more concentrated than a 1:4/5 shot, less concentrated than a 1:2 shot.

I don't pull many at 1:3 or less.



CrazySnakeUncle said:


> I started very methodically, bringing brew-time gradually down from 51 secs to 21.


 Assuming adequate prep, good distribution in the basket before tamping, this suggests that you either:

Give up on shots this short with this cofee & go longer on ratio. But, you are complaining about weak shots, so...

...with this coffee I'd go shorter on ratio 1:1.1 to 1.2, update a tad to 19/20g & pull it fast (maybe 15s?). You're trying to get a low extraction, so you won't be worrying about a longer brew time. Just fine enough so that you can hit the desired brew ratio, without overshooting.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

CrazySnakeUncle said:


> Thanks - turns out there is a typo on my spreadsheet/screenshot . Sadly (because I thought you had found the silver bullet) the Psb _is_ set to *-08.0 *(correctly).


Try going hotter - it may be that you need to adjust the offset more on your machine.

If go are at 100 and you let the machine heat up properly then when you first hit brew you should get steam out. If you don't then go to 101, 102, 103, 104 etc until you do get the water flashing to steam initially (leave the machine for 5 mins or so between temp changes).

If you then determine that steam appears when you are at 104 then adjust your offset by -4 to -12.0 : so that at a displayed 100 you'll have the same steam.

To illustrate what I said before about measuring water temp : if I use my Decent milk jug and Decent digital milk thermometer with the water from my Decent DE1 - producing brew water pretty accurately at 95.0c then the highest reading I get on the thermometer in the jug is 82c. If you're using 93.0 brew temp then I'd expect a similar measuring process to give you a temp in the high 70s.


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

MrShades said:


> Try going hotter - it may be that you need to adjust the offset more on your machine....


 Thanks. I'm getting those steam puffs at 100 so I think the PID is on-point and eliminated from my enquiries


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

CrazySnakeUncle said:


> There is a 3D printed single-dose mod for the Specialita and (in the US at least) a bellows to match, but I am sticking with the hopper for now - there is enough gadgetry here already not working in harmony!


 Just about all grinders have some sort of clump crusher. It might be called something else such as a grid on Mazzer. They have to be removed to single dose as they will prevent all of the grinds wont be swept out. I don't know what the retention is on a Mignon but with a clump crusher on it may be as much as when the hopper is on or near to it. That would mean wasting beans each time the grinder setting is changed just as it needs to be when the hopper is used normally.

I did wonder if you should increase temp but have no idea what the capacity of the boiler is.


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## Luca06 (Feb 13, 2021)

I struggled (and still sometimes do) getting an espresso that blows me away out of my setup (Bianca + Niche). I went through the same journey as you. From temp changes to puck prep. I spend literally hundreds of pounds on tools that should've helped. And tried different beans.

Good espresso from a roaster, is a world on its own. I only progressed on my journey by going to a local roaster, pick the beans by tasting their espresso on the spot, go home and try to replicate it. Back the next day. I did some online barista-basic courses as well. Just to get the basics right.

I noticed that my biggest mistakes were:

a) letting beans not settle enough. I give them now +/- 2 weeks

b) puck prep. Often dry spots and then it does tastes sour.

My recommendation is really to get beans from a good roaster, let them rest, test them on the spot and ask for a recipe.

It's a fiddle, but isn't that part of the hobby?


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Luca06 said:


> I only progressed on my journey by going to a local roaster, pick the beans by tasting their espresso on the spot, go home and try to replicate it.


 I have been thinking that I need to do this. I am beginning to understand the process, and how to work my machine without getting in a dreadful mess now. I don't really know if I am making great coffee though. It tastes nice. Could it be better? I dunno unless I have something to compare it to. I never drank espresso in coffee shops, only at home using a stovetop and that is so different in taste anyway. I can't wait till my local independent coffee shops open again so I can compare what I have been making. Costa is still open near me, but I am not sure that should be my benchmark.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Emily said:


> Costa is still open near me, but I am not sure that should be my benchmark.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

HVL87 said:


> View attachment 53006


 I don't understand such dismissive attitude, it could be a great benchmark.. for how espresso should *not* taste like. 😅


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

OK - I'm back - and 1.5kg of beans lighter. Still need your help team 😕

Two images here. The big one is my journey of discovery with *Craft House Development Blend*. My process definitely left a lot to be desired at times here - I got some unusual timings and I will admit that I ended up thrashing around a bit in desperation. But I have included it to show that - with a bean that is meant to be good for the beginner - I went through the full range of grinder settings from "1" (WAY too fine) to "2.75" (waterfall). Most of these tests were done with a 6.5 bar OPV spring. I tried both mineral water and softened tap water and played with temps 92-94 degrees C. Anyway these beans are all gone.

Smaller image is current experimentation with the "idiot proof"(!) *Coffee Compass* *Brighton Lanes* beans. I still have 0.5kg of these left and *this is where I need to focus*. My process/timings are quite consistent. I definitely found the "too fine" point ("1") but for everywhere between "1.1" (42 secs) and "2" (21 secs) I really would not rate anything above "drinkable". I appreciate that my tasting comments are not super-helpful - I still struggle a bit between "sour" and "bitter" except at the extremes.

Without disappearing too much into the attached detail my question is simply: *What variable(s) would you change next / where would you head with the remainder of these beans?*

Quick recap: Gaggia Pro with Shades' PID, Mignon Specialita, purging 3 seconds at each new grinder setting, stirring each shot (but not skimming off crema)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sorry as a short aside , and only having skirted the last post . 
1:2 ish doesn't seem to be giving you much joy by the looks of it , why persist .

secondly , French press the coffee , taste it , espresso should equate to a concentrated variant , if hard to discern the tastes of the espresso dilute a little .


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

CrazySnakeUncle said:


> Next theory I am focussing on is that I have been blindly trusting the reading on my newly-installed PID. I just tested the water coming through the PF (no coffee) using the thermometer from my milk jug. Even with the PID set at 100 degrees C this water is never above 70 degrees C


 You can't measure temperature like that. A better idea would be to measure the flow of the coffee coming out of reasonably tuned puck. Set your PID to 93C. If the portafilter has has heated up you way well find it's in the 70 to 80C range.PID is not a magic bullet and has limitations.

Personally going on your first videos I wouldn't expect things to go well. Problems with the grinds from the point where they are coming out of the grinder.

As @Mrboots2u mentioned try ratio variations and get used to the fact that grinder adjustments often need to be tiny to hit some specific result. So tiny they are not easy to make. With the hopper loaded always waste grinds when it is adjusted. That may be a whole dose on your grinder, pass I have never used one.

I drink americano and always try a ratio of 2 and 3 and then often one in the middle. I have come across beans that need higher. To see what happens with taste these do not need to be super precise.  Trying to get perfection may involve that and grinds need careful handling to maintain it even on the initial ratios. Looking at the flow out of the filter basket can help to see how well that is going. There are posts around on shot mirrors.


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## CrazySnakeUncle (Jan 12, 2021)

ajohn said:


> You can't measure temperature like that. ...
> 
> As @Mrboots2u mentioned try ratio variations and get used to the fact that grinder adjustments often need to be tiny to hit some specific result. So tiny they are not easy to make. With the hopper loaded always waste grinds when it is adjusted. That may be a whole dose on your grinder, pass I have never used one.
> 
> I drink americano and always try a ratio of 2 and 3 and then often one in the middle. I have come across beans that need higher. To see what happens with taste these do not need to be super precise.  ...


 Thanks. I am reasonably confident on the PID temps now having tested that I am getting a puff of steam up at 100 degrees.

I just pulled a couple of 1:3 shots and things are looking up ☀ - neither sour nor bitter, just a bit lacking on flavour - but I feel like I have something new to work off now - I think I may be 'in the zone' 🤞

When I had pulled longer shots early on (with different beans) they were quite weak and I had kinda got "longer ratio = less flavour/body" lodged in my head. Another lesson learned.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

You can also play with time - but that may mean different ratios.

 But honestly you can not test brew temperatures the way you have and also can't expect perfect from the machine you are using. Only close so compromise is needed.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

All of the ratios are pretty much the same, you need more significant changes there.

To relate to the examples: The very first shot on the first seemed close based on the description. You note some bitterness and go coarser, significantly. You note sourness and work back finer. So far so good. Then you go finer than you were at the start and get bitterness. Then go finer again?? Then go coarser....but not coarser than you were for the first shot....you get the point. I get you're trying to work through a range that might go from bitter to sour and then land in good but you went from a 52 second shot to a 29 second shot and worked through settings between in one day with results only every varying between bitter and sour. You then started making very small micro adjustments in the following days with not much more success...to me this looks like you've got low EY and you can't work into a decent range before shots get silty.

It also seems to me that you might be mistaking sour and bitter or be struggling to tell the difference between the two. The strength of the espresso may be making it harder for you to properly taste.

A longer ratio might help but you may need to work on puck prep too.


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