# Help! Is is me or the beans?



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I really hope you experienced baristas can help me out here.

Since I got my espresso equipment a few months ago I've been quite reassured that the best espresso based drinks I've made came from the likes of Square Mile, James Gourmet Coffee and Hasbean, as I kind of inferred that maybe it meant I'm doing things right.... i.e. their beans are better than other suppliers', and I'm not messing up the beans' potential when I make espresso.

But I've bought beans (house blends) from two local roasters and the espresso I made from them tasted blooming awful. So I'm now questioning my ability.

In the most recent case (this week) the beans are significantly darker than I've been getting from elsewhere. During extraction the flow is darker too. The taste could be described using words like dirty, charcoally, dusty, burnt. There's a kind of claggy, tannin mouthfeel like you can get with some red wines. I took a sip this morning and immediately wanted to wash out my mouth with water.

I contacted the roaster for guidance, and was told that the blend is "a medium roast and with the perfect extraction should be full aromatic and chocolatey with a sweetness on the finish." Well it isn't any of those things, and the suggestion in that sentence is that I'm not extracting it correctly.

I did some reading around the 'burnt' scenario, and it seems to be a common symptom of overextraction. I've therefore changed some parameters including making the grind coarser and stopping the shot sooner. But it hasn't helped at all.

On the one hand I feel like I need to buck up my ideas and go back to the drawing board with my learning.... but on the other hand I wonder whether these are either over-roasted beans, or maybe I'm tasting a defect in the bean...phenol maybe?

How would you suggest I deal with this? Just move on and don't buy these beans again? Or continue to question myself in the hope of correcting a skills problem I didn't know I had?


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

I'd be inclined to try another bag in a few weeks time and see what tastes you get

What temperature are you extracting at?

If too low you can also get these symptoms

Try updosing, more contact time with less water flow may lead to under extraction and help balance this out too


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Thanks Glenn.

I'm trusting the Classic to get the temperature right - I don't have a PID on it. Don't know the temp, and usually just run the brew button for about 2oz immediately before fitting the PF and extracting. I tried running about 4-5oz through to make sure the brew light went off, then waited until it came back on before fitting the PF and brewing, to see if that would make a difference - but no change.

I did also try going from 17.5g to 20g, and the coarser grind, both of which did lead to faster blonding so a shorter extraction, but still tasted undrinkable even with milk and sugar!


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## Joe Coelho (Jan 2, 2011)

Hi Mike,

Please forgive me for asking, but have you asked the roaster when beans were roasted? Also the green they are using may not be of the quality of those you get with has bean or square mile? Just because they roast local doesnt mean they are good quality! I have a local roaster near me and there blends are awful!!! No matter how hard I tried I couldnt get a decent shot!! sour burnt and ashy as you are describing!!!

I dont know that much about roasting but I m pretty sure my coffee making is of a said standard to be able to cope with different varitels, I would trust yourself and your skills and be more inclined to question the beans!


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

Of your normal roasters I've only used hasbean but I find their beans are alot lighter in general than others I've tried. I actually prefer the darker roasted beans which I find less acidic. It does sound like you're overextracting. Are you getting a nice dry puck? If you are then my guess would be the beans are maybe over roasted/burnt. If your pucks soggy then I'd do as Glenn suggests and up your dose a bit. For an experiment try cutting the shot after 10 seconds with your normal parameters and taste it. If it still tastes burnt then I'd ditch the beans.


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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

If the roast is a little darker, I've had success using a slightly lower dose and stopping shots just (1 second, maybe) after blonding. Darker roasts also tend to have a more distinct dark to blond flow colour.

I'd suggest dropping the dose to about 15g and fining up the grind to aim for a 20 - 25s ish extraction - see if that improves the taste. This will quite possibly cause a somewhat wet puck, but that's not a problem if the taste improves









p.s. it's worth noting that roast terms, such as "Medium" can be very different between roasters.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Thanks everyone. (The beans were roasted 8 days ago, BTW.) So I've tried updosing, downdosing, grinding finer, grinding coarser, running the shot longer, stopping it shorter, aiming for a hotter brew temperature, a cooler temperature, stopping the grinder earlier incase it's generating heat and burning the grinds, and adjusting tamp pressure lighter and harder.

I've finally managed to get an acceptable shot:

14g i.e. lower dose

Finer grind

Very hard tamp

Maybe a cooler brew temp, but hard to tell.

This almost stalled the machine (the PF moved a little!), but drops did come through in about 4 seconds and soon turned to a decent looking flow. Surprisingly the flow looked thicker in diameter (i.e. faster) than when I used 17.5g (which produced a thin mousetail). It only yielded just under 1oz before I decided to stop it based upon colour change - maybe 17 seconds after drips started- so maybe it would qualify it as a ristretto based upon brew ratio. I'll try again with an even finer grind and lighter tamp, to see if I can get a longer extraction.

(Yes, the puck was more soggy too.)

Although a small shot, the colour was richer than before, taste was less acrid, I guess there were elements of sweetness, definitely drinkable. And the awful aftertaste and mouthfeel were gone.

I'm really glad of the learning experience! It confirms to me that some beans/blends do need more work or skill to find their 'sweet spot'. But after all this, the shot was only 40% of the volume that other beans would yield, and wasn't remarkably good to drink, so I do wonder why would anyone bother working with such challenging blends?

I'll keep working on this bag... hopefully I'll crack it before they're all gone.

Thanks again!


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

If you have a rummage on Ebay, you can find cheapo digital thermometers that easily install and give you a means of monitoring temp. I have one which has proven to be very handy.

Seller I used has none up at the moment though and there is a post here about my install though I did replace the original thermometer recently with a slightly improved one, again none for sale from the seller at the moment.

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?2305-Report-on-my-Rancilio-Silvia-cheapo-thermometer-mod&p=8941#post8941


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

It is possible you have got a faulty thermostat. I found this on my Classic (and previously on a Gaggia Baby) and it never brewed hot enough. Consquently I could never get a decent cup of coffee out of it. Replacing the thermostat solved this (very easy to do). Then I went one better and got a PID.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Thanks Rolo. Well I seem to be ok with most espresso blends I've tried, but actually I think I might go ahead and replace both thermostats since my Classic about is 5 y/o. Can't hurt to do a little preventative maintenance







I suppose it's only a matter of time before I get a new boiler and pump too!


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## AndyL (Apr 10, 2011)

Hey Mike, I know this thread is getting on a bit but I'm interested to know how you got on with those new thermostats and how it impacted on your brew temps. A similar problem has been thrown up is this thread today http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?3732-How-to-change-the-temperature-on-the-Gaggia-Classic

Have you considered the PID route yourself?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I haven't had a chance to order them yet, Andy, but I'll update this thread once I do.

I know lots of people say their shots are better with a PID but crikey the kits are expensive! I'm also not that convinced I need one, for a few reasons:

1. I've read that single boiler machines like the classic do heat up whilst dormant, so now I'm more diligent with my pre-shot flushing/temperature surfing and my shots are certainly better. (2oz flush, stop, empty glass into sink, pause, repeat until boiler light goes out, pause until it goes back on, immediately fit PF and hit brew switch)

2. I had previously thought that most commercial machines had a PID as standard but a chap on the La Spaziale stand at Caffe Culture said most still require temperature surfing, except the costly high-end ones. If that's true then I feel better about not having a PID.

3. It seems to me that the whole quest for temperature stability is based on anecdotal evidence that stability is best whereas recently I've read (and I think you have too) of how the temperature if the puck increases anyway during extraction so a better approach may be to gradually decrease brew temperature to compensate.

Aah hell, why do I find it so hard to give brief answers?!?


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## AndyL (Apr 10, 2011)

Well a big part of me agrees with you Mike, I've been holding back going down the whole PID route because I'm still not convinced it's worth the outlay, so here's what I'm going to do.

I'm going to do some tests based on the styrofoam cup temp test ( http://home.earthlink.net/~r_harmon/styrofoam%20cup%20temperature%20test.htm ). I say based because I feel it's floored in that it measures the temperature of the initial shot only. So what i'm thinking is I'll buy an instant read digital thermometer that can save highest and lowest temps. Construct a cup but put holes in the bottom so the water can flow and measure the temperature over a 30 sec pull or 2 oz water or both. This is still not ideal because obviously a PF full of coffee has resistance and that will affect the temp too. But it will allow me to monitor the ramp that occurs in regard to water flow from the boiler.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Sounds good. Another route is the K Type thermocouple, slotted through the PF handle and up through a small hole in the centre of the basket. This way it's measuring from within the puck. I've read about it (Schomer) but don't know how accurate it is.

Good luck! I do think there's nothing beats having done your own tests.


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## AndyL (Apr 10, 2011)

OK here's update for you. I just finished putting together my pressure gauge and adjusted my OPV which as it turned out was sitting at 12 BAR plus. It's now at 9 Bar dead on. Did the temp test as I said I would using my usual routine for pulling a shot and monitored. I was really surprised to find that I've been bang on and my shot started at 96 and dropped to 88 by then end of the pull. I really didn't expect that but i'm happy.

Out of interest I tried a control shot and repeated the test without hitting the steam switch. The shot started at 89 and finished at 82, hence why I always ended up with sour shots before I modified my surfing methods.

So Mike in view of all this, I'd say it's a test worth running yourself just so you can eliminate water temperature from your problem.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Great stuff Andy!! I'm inspired enough to give it a go once I get home, if only to know what temperatures I'm running at. Surprised that the boiler was running cool though. Also, what kind of pressure gauge are you using?


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## AndyL (Apr 10, 2011)

I'll dig out the link for the gauge and some additional info later mate.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Im getting the impression that the Classics can vary from machine to machine quite a bit!

Without testing temps and pressure you'l never know if its performing as it should....


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## AndyL (Apr 10, 2011)

It's true Gary, although mine isn't a Classic it's now been modded up to Classic spec, minus the 3 way solenoid. Before I checked everything accurately I only had the taste to go by which in terms of temperature turned out to be pretty accurate. In regards to the pressure adjustment I made there doesn't seem to be any significant affect on the shots I've pulled so far.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AndyL (Apr 10, 2011)

Here you go Mike http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?3748-Gaggia-Pressure-Testing-Kit I started another thread as I felt it was getting off topic.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Great! Thanks mate, I hope you don't mind but I'll read all about it when I'm home. Finding internet is a bind here. BUT... I have some fertile arabica beans in my bag, and what's more, they're from a wild civet's backside. I have a vid of us collecting them. Will send some out once I get back.


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## AndyL (Apr 10, 2011)

I'm so, so jealous. have a great time mate.

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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

AndyL said:


> I'm going to do some tests based on the styrofoam cup temp test ( http://home.earthlink.net/~r_harmon/styrofoam%20cup%20temperature%20test.htm ). I say based because I feel it's floored in that it measures the temperature of the initial shot only. So what i'm thinking is I'll buy an instant read digital thermometer that can save highest and lowest temps. Construct a cup but put holes in the bottom so the water can flow and measure the temperature over a 30 sec pull or 2 oz water or both. This is still not ideal because obviously a PF full of coffee has resistance and that will affect the temp too. But it will allow me to monitor the ramp that occurs in regard to water flow from the boiler.


Finally got around to reading the above link and looking at the photos. Looks like a really great way to measure brewhead temperature without having to buy a thermocouple and reader. I'll give it a try, since I have a bottomless PF on the way.

Actually, I just found this link to an inexpensive T Thermocouple Kit.. maybe I'll go down that route...

http://thermometer.co.uk/397-minitherma-t-thermometer-kit.html

Oh wait! My wife has a digital probe thermometer that we use for roasting meat - I wonder if I can use that!?!


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## truecksuk (Sep 22, 2011)

Hello Mike, did you use your wifes thermometer ? if so did it work!!

Intriguing thread/s


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Now yer asking... that was a year ago









I didn't try her kitchen probe, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work as long as you allow for perhaps a 3 seconds delay between the water coming through and the thermometer showing the temperature. It seems that the more expensive the probe, the faster the response time.

I've recently done some slightly more thorough experiments to work out my brew temperature at various points throughout a flush, to allow me to temperature surf more accurately and brew consistently at my chosen temperature rather than being at the mercy of the heat exchange/E61. Using a cheap digital thermometer that comes with k-type thermocouple wire, combined with a single spout portafilter, you can map the brew water temperature whilst you flush. If you measure the volume of water you're flushing, you can just about work out the correct flush timing. Through an iterative process you can also work out the rebound time i.e. how long it takes your machine to get back up to temperature after your flush. I'm fairly sure this can be applied to a single boiler such as the Classic.

Let me know if I can clarify any of this any more.


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## truecksuk (Sep 22, 2011)

I am currently at work. that all went over my head... I've just emailed myself that haggieslab link, looks REALLY interesting... and I will take a look once I get back home.

So no PID needed?! excellent news

If I need you - i'll PM you or reply on here!

Should be an interesting - iterative - weekend


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

A PID on a single boiler machine is a means of providing a stable brew temperature, which if you plotted on a graph (time on the x axis) would be a flat, horizontal line. Temperature surfing is how a similar flat line is achieved with a non-PID machine that uses a Heat Exchange system (see http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/espresso-machines-101-t368.html for more info regarding machine types).

Now then, the limitation with the Classic is that it doesn't have the kind of grouphead that can retain a lot of heat, which will make it more difficult to achieve that flat temperature profile... and this is why a PID is beneficial with a Classic. But a PID isn't essential, and if you get to know the temperatures coming out of your machine at various points (basically, become really familiar with your machine) then you have a better chance of getting a more consistent brew temperature. Routine is the key.


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