# When to time the espresso pour?



## ddoyle (Sep 6, 2017)

So I'm confused when I should time my 25 seconds espresso pour.

1. As soon as the pump starts

2. At pre infusion/pre wetting

3. As soon as the espresso pours out (after pre infusion/pre wetting)

I have always timed my espresso pour as soon as it begins pouring out (after pre infusion/wetting coffee grinds).


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## DaveP (Jul 14, 2017)

For consistent timing measurement, its from the very start to the very end.. soooooooooo Number 1

However.... in the big scheme of things, science and stuff, time can be bent a bit.


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## ddoyle (Sep 6, 2017)

So when online it says that the ideal extraction time is 20-30 seconds, but for simplicity lets say 25 seconds, would this time already include the time for all the other stuff such as pre-wetting?

My machine takes about 5 seconds to pre-wet, then theres a 2 second pause, then the pump starts again which takes about 1 second to begin pouring, this would leave about 17 seconds for the actual pour.

So I should adjust the grind fineness/coarseness of my 18g dose so that all of the above process takes 25 seconds to extract 54ml (for 1:3 ratio), is this correct?

If its no1 and I've been doing no3, I guess I have been over extracting all this time by taking much longer to extract the correct volume









Sorry for all the questions, just want to make sure that I am crystal clear on the correct procedure for extracting coffee.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

When you hit the switch to start extraction thats when you time it .

When you stop the switch / button that's when you stop timing BUT Note time but dont use it to judge or kill the shot by , use weight and taste buds ...


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## ddoyle (Sep 6, 2017)

Thanks Mrboots2u

My machine is a crappy bean-to-coffee Delongi Magnifica ESAM 4200 (will eventually upgrade to a Sage machine), so I guess I should start my timing as soon as I hear the pump unto I hear the pump stop.

Sorry I should have said that the 54ml above is based on 54g weight, I always weigh my beans going in at 18g and my extracted shots are also weighed to around 54g average for a 1:3 ratio. Annoyingly sometimes my crappy machine stop before it grinds all 18g (even with max dose time).

I need to work on developing my taste buds.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Start the time the instant the pump engages. That's when water (should) start moving into the puck.


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## ddoyle (Sep 6, 2017)

Should I include the pause between pre-infusion and extraction? It's about a couple of seconds.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

@ddoyle - yes, it's called dwell time, and the water is touching the coffee so it counts.


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## ddoyle (Sep 6, 2017)

@Glenn

Thank you


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## DaveP (Jul 14, 2017)

This .... nothing else, no deviations



Mrboots2u said:


> When you hit the switch to start extraction thats when you time it .
> 
> When you stop the switch / button that's when you stop timing BUT Note time but dont use it to judge or kill the shot by , use weight and taste buds ...


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## ddoyle (Sep 6, 2017)

Got it, however some say the dwell time should be halved. What do you think?


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## DaveP (Jul 14, 2017)

This .... nothing else, no deviations



> Originally Posted by *Mrboots2u* When you hit the switch to start extraction thats when you time it .
> 
> When you stop the switch / button that's when you stop timing BUT Note time but dont use it to judge or kill the shot by , use weight and taste buds ...


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## ddoyle (Sep 6, 2017)

Are you trying to tell me something?







Ok point taken


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## DaveP (Jul 14, 2017)

You may be over thinking this....

Time is the least important of the variables, get the others right first.


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## ddoyle (Sep 6, 2017)

I had the others right until I realised I was timing it wrong. i.e. dose 18g, extraction time 25-27s, extraction 50-54g, temp 93-94c

But yeah I am over thinking it a little but I do think coffee making is like rocket science lol


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ddoyle said:


> I had the others right until I realised I was timing it wrong. i.e. dose 18g, extraction time 25-27s, extraction 50-54g, temp 93-94c
> 
> But yeah I am over thinking it a little but I do think coffee making is like rocket science lol


Time of itself is a poor guide to extraction, if bizarrely fast/slow for the same machine & grinder and bad tasting, then worry about time, otherwise focus on dose weight, weight in the cup, taste & grind setting.

25-27s is too small a window to realistically aim for, or to give a reliable guide to extraction. I don't know why figures like this get repeated. By adding a small time target to brew ratio, taste & grind, you are making things more complicated.

You might change grinders and achieve the same level of extraction in 20s, compared to 40s on another grinder, at the same weights. Beverage weight is 50-54g, extraction yield is another parameter, but don't worry about that too much just yet. You could realistically knock a couple of g off that target weight range, maybe 52-54g?

If rocket science was as simple as keeping everything the same and adjusting grind, people wouldn't keep quoting it as an example of a difficult thing to do 

You are 'making' each drink, in tiny quantities, in the shortest time possible...it's going to take a certain degree of care.


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## WilliamPiper (Oct 6, 2014)

I have a La Pavoni, and have wondered about how it works for my machine - is it when you lift the lever up so that the water starts to work its way through the coffee?


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## PaulL (May 5, 2014)

In my pavoni years I lifted the lever veeery slowly with my elbow at highest point, held it open (ie. You hear the water movement) for 10s then lowered the lever very slowly again. I used double baskets, good grinder, good beans and shot quality was adjusted by grind level, basket was always at same visible volume. Time and shot routine remained constant. I did not count total time, I went by extraction visually, feel of resistance through the lever to avoid choking or gushing and taste.


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## ddoyle (Sep 6, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Time of itself is a poor guide to extraction, if bizarrely fast/slow for the same machine & grinder and bad tasting, then worry about time, otherwise focus on dose weight, weight in the cup, taste & grind setting.
> 
> 25-27s is too small a window to realistically aim for, or to give a reliable guide to extraction. I don't know why figures like this get repeated. By adding a small time target to brew ratio, taste & grind, you are making things more complicated.
> 
> ...


Time is always my last adjustment using grind size to control the time to extract 50-54g in 25-27s. But I get your point on how different grinders can optimise the extraction better. For now I am stuck with the grinder in my Delonghi Magnifica until I upgrade to something better. In my case 25-27s seems to be the right amount of extraction time for this particular machine with its built-in grinder.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ddoyle said:


> Time is always my last adjustment using grind size to control the time to extract 50-54g in 25-27s, thats my goal. But I get your point on how different grinders can optimise the extraction better. For now I am stuck with the grinder in my Delonghi Magnifica until I upgrade to something better. Extraction precision isn't great on this machine.


I didn't say different grinders can optimise extraction "better", just differently. You have a grinder that you are limited to using, that's not a variable.

I don't understand why you are still saying 25-27s is a goal.

What is your extraction precision (whatever it is, it won't vary wildly at +/- 1second, maybe more like +/-5 seconds)?

Concentrate on consistent dose, a beverage weight that gives you a balanced/pleasant taste. Adjust grind (for that brew ratio) based on the taste.


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## ddoyle (Sep 6, 2017)

Sorry by extraction precision I meant variable extraction weight.

ill focus on the variables that you mentioned

thanks


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