# Newbie question incoming.. over extraction issues



## Nanz (Mar 31, 2021)

Hi all

So I got my Sage Bambino this morning, I was also hoping to get a Sage Grinder Pro but they are not in stock till end of May / June.

Without a grinder available I purchased some Ozone Empire Blend coffee (espresso ground already) as well this morning. The coffee was only roasted a week ago so it's still fairly fresh.

I used a double wall basket with 18g of coffee and tamped it, not too hard, just enough to compress the coffee and I used the razor tool to level off.

I ran the coffee machine a couple of times without the portafilter attached to heat the group head.

When I ran a double shot, I only got 3g of coffee in the cup. It seemed to struggle to get water through the coffee on the first pull. I pulled again and it flowed much better and I ended up stopping the pull when I reached about 40g in the cup.

Things I have tried:



Tried tamping much lighter - still the same result


Tried a single wall single shot, similar result


Tried 16g & 19g in double wall double shot, similar result


I just can't seem to get the first shot to pull properly. Do I need to just pull manually?

Can someone give this newbie some advice on other things to try? Also how do you measure how much pressure you are tamping with e.g. how do I know I am applying 20kg of pressure?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You're not over extracting. You'd need to run loads of water through the puck to do this.

Don't use the Razor after tamping. Use it once to determine the dose weight at Razor level (e.g. dose, tamp, Razor & weigh the dose).

Why aren't you using the single walled double basket?

All you can really do is dose less (try 15g, then 14g...) & tamp as light as useable.

You don't need 20kg (I don't know where 20kg came from anyway, that's 44lb!) of pressure, you need to tamp flat, level & consistently. 5kg is enough & surprisingly light. So just do it the same way each time.

Yes, pull manually.


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## Nanz (Mar 31, 2021)

MWJB said:


> You're not over extracting. You'd need to run loads of water through the puck to do this.
> 
> Don't use the Razor after tamping. Use it once to determine the dose weight at Razor level (e.g. dose, tamp, Razor & weigh the dose).
> 
> ...


 Based on the Sage manual, my issue is identified as over extraction as the flow starts after 13 seconds and barely comes out.

I will give the single wall double basket ago, dose a little less, tamp light and pull manually and see how I go.

Thanks for the tips!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Nanz said:


> Based on the Sage manual, my issue is identified as over extraction as the flow starts after 13 seconds and barely comes out.


 The Sage manual is wrong. If you grind too fine/overdose, then you won't get a reasonable amount of coffee in the cup. The less coffee in the cup, the less your extraction because you won't have washed out enough coffee.


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

if ozone ground it for your it's probably too fine for the double-walled.


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## Nanz (Mar 31, 2021)

facboy said:


> if ozone ground it for your it's probably too fine for the double-walled.


 Yeah it was ground by Ozone. I will use the single walled and see how I go, thanks!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

As you are new to loading filter basket I'd suggest you tamp at 10kg or so. Make sure they are pretty level before that and tap the portafilter down to settle them a bit as well.


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## Yoshitonks (Apr 21, 2021)

Hi @Nanzintrigued as to how you got on. I found these forums as I also got a Sage Bambino today, and have exactly the same issue as you 

I also am using pre ground coffee (espresso ground Luckie Beans coffee) as that's what I have at the moment, and I'm also only getting a very small amount of coffee through on the first pull. I have tried using both the double walled and single walled so far and just not having a huge amount of success.


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## Nanz (Mar 31, 2021)

Yoshitonks said:


> Hi @Nanzintrigued as to how you got on. I found these forums as I also got a Sage Bambino today, and have exactly the same issue as you
> 
> I also am using pre ground coffee (espresso ground Luckie Beans coffee) as that's what I have at the moment, and I'm also only getting a very small amount of coffee through on the first pull. I have tried using both the double walled and single walled so far and just not having a huge amount of success.


 I tried about 4 double shots today and threw out 3 of them before I got posting into the forum.

Tomorrow I am going to try a smaller dose, 14g / 15g in the single wall double shot basket and will manually pull and see if that makes a difference.

@facboymentioned that as its pre-ground, it could be too fine for the double wall basket.

I'm not fussed if I have to go through half a bag or more to get it right, I think its going to be a load of trial and error!


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## Yoshitonks (Apr 21, 2021)

Nanz said:


> I tried about 4 double shots today and threw out 3 of them before I got posting into the forum.
> 
> Tomorrow I am going to try a smaller dose, 14g / 15g in the single wall double shot basket and will manually pull and see if that makes a difference.
> 
> ...


 Hahah so similar to my experience today. I'm also not fussed about going through lots of coffee to get it right.

I look forward to seeing if you are able to get a decent shot out tomorrow - I'm certainly hoping I can!


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## Nanz (Mar 31, 2021)

Yoshitonks said:


> Hahah so similar to my experience today. I'm also not fussed about going through lots of coffee to get it right.
> 
> I look forward to seeing if you are able to get a decent shot out tomorrow - I'm certainly hoping I can!


 Be sure to let me know if you do, I'll report back here tomorrow. Let's see if between us we can get this right 😂


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

You could also try ~9g in the single but do check the dose after tamping isn't too high - lower or the same as the razor tool leaves.

Some beans will produce a pretty strong drink with the single. Usually stronger beans in a dark roast.


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## Nanz (Mar 31, 2021)

This morning's update..

So I tried 14g in a single wall double shot basket which I manually pulled and it worked out ok. I did a pre-infusion for about 8-9 seconds and then let it run till I got about 30g of coffee in the glass.

I then tried 17g in a single wall double shot basket, also manually pulled, but it did take quite sometime before getting a decent flow out of the portafilter.

It seems to be that it works better with a small amount of coffee. More testing tomorrow.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Nanz said:


> It seems to be that it works better with a small amount of coffee.


 Sure, for that grind size. A little coarser (not that you have the option right now) and you should be able to go back to 17 or 18g.


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## Yoshitonks (Apr 21, 2021)

Nanz said:


> This morning's update..
> 
> So I tried 14g in a single wall double shot basket which I manually pulled and it worked out ok. I did a pre-infusion for about 8-9 seconds and then let it run till I got about 30g of coffee in the glass.
> 
> ...


 I decided to use the single wall single shot basket this morning and used about 9g, still getting similar results in terms of how much coffee is flowing through. I did pull the shot manually, it's just like @Nanz it really did take it's time to get a decent flow out of the portafilter.

I have some medium-fine ground coffee that I had placed an order for before buying the new machine turning up today or tomorrow which was actually meant for my Aeropress but I will see if I get different/better results with a less fine grind. 🙂


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## Nanz (Mar 31, 2021)

Yoshitonks said:


> I decided to use the single wall single shot basket this morning and used about 9g, still getting similar results in terms of how much coffee is flowing through. I did pull the shot manually, it's just like @Nanz it really did take it's time to get a decent flow out of the portafilter.
> 
> I have some medium-fine ground coffee that I had placed an order for before buying the new machine turning up today or tomorrow which was actually meant for my Aeropress but I will see if I get different/better results with a less fine grind. 🙂


 For your single shot, maybe try 6 or 7g as 9 is essentially a full load. It should pull better with less coffee.


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## Yoshitonks (Apr 21, 2021)

Nanz said:


> For your single shot, maybe try 6 or 7g as 9 is essentially a full load. It should pull better with less coffee.


 It did indeed pull a lot better! Tried with 7g first, was ok... But 6g with the type of coffee I have right now seems like the sweet spot. Got pretty decent flow time, and an ok crema. Still need some practice on timings but definitely getting there.


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## Nanz (Mar 31, 2021)

Yoshitonks said:


> It did indeed pull a lot better! Tried with 7g first, was ok... But 6g with the type of coffee I have right now seems like the sweet spot. Got pretty decent flow time, and an ok crema. Still need some practice on timings but definitely getting there.


 Great to hear! I am getting a decent pull with 14g, just takes a bit longer manually than the built in pre-programmed double shot button.


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## Nanz (Mar 31, 2021)

Thought I'd post an update as I have had the machine for a few weeks now.

So I brought another pack of Ozone, but noticed on the pack (after I had used it) that it was roasted on the same date that I had purchased the first pack. Needless to say, its was near impossible to get a decent shot out of the pre-ground, I suspect because it was a good few weeks old.

Yesterday I went to one of our local coffee shops and they had Mission Coffee Works - Uphill blend. They had the beans and ground them for me in the shop. I tried the first shot at 18g, double shot single wall and got a beautiful pull. The coffee flowed really nice, albeit a bit fast. Its a lighter roast so I am doing a 1:3 mix and it actually tastes really decent and I get a great crema as well.

I can now massively appreciate the difference and will be making sure from now on I get my coffee ground on the day of purchase rather than buying something pre-ground in the packet.


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

oh, it was pre-ground in the bag? i thought they ground it for u in the shop after you bought it, pre-ground and packaged is definitely sub-par.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Nanz said:


> Thought I'd post an update as I have had the machine for a few weeks now.
> 
> I can now massively appreciate the difference and will be making sure from now on I get my coffee ground on the day of purchase rather than buying something pre-ground in the packet.


 It's well worth investing in a grinder to grind when you are about to use the coffee...It will make a massive difference. There are quite a few nice little grinders in the classifieds.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/classifieds/category/14-grinders/


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## Nanz (Mar 31, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> It's well worth investing in a grinder to grind when you are about to use the coffee...It will make a massive difference. There are quite a few nice little grinders in the classifieds.
> 
> https://coffeeforums.co.uk/classifieds/category/14-grinders/


 Hi Dave, thats next on the list to purchase, I was just waiting for the Sage Grinder Pro's to come back into stock. There are a few good ones in the classifieds, the Eureka Mignon Specialita looks great, but it's just out of my budget.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Nanz There is the hand grinder JX Pro....very very good, I have one myself. Or just stretch that budget a tiny bit...it's worth it.


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## Nanz (Mar 31, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Nanz There is the hand grinder JX Pro....very very good, I have one myself. Or just stretch that budget a tiny bit...it's worth it.


 I've thought about hand grinders but I'm keen to invest a little more in an electric. Maybe I'll have to rethink my budget!


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