# UK Bean producers who list roasting details



## saxobob (Dec 26, 2014)

Hello all,

As a onetime home roaster, I know the difference a bolder roast can make to a particular bean's outcome.

It amazes me therefore that most online retailers don't mention how they will roast the beans they offer.

There is a vogue at the moment for all fruity superlight roasts which I don't really enjoy, but the lack of roasting notes makes it difficult to know where to go.

Any tips?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Look out for anything with "Italian" in the name as this suggests a darker roast, roasters also tend to have a general profile, some roasting darker, others more medium to light.

http://www.redber.co.uk/ Make a point of detailing the type of roast with every coffee they sell.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Has Bean list roasting suggestions for their beans.

Fruitiness comes primarily from the origin of the bean & how the bean is processed.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

if you enjoy a darker roast try coffee compass , anecdotally the darker roasts boys love this company

I go by cupping notes, favours described by a roaster, opposed to description of colour of finished roasted bean as i diontfind it tells me a lot on its own

A bean may be dark but not developed coz its burnt for example

Each to their own though


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I don't believe roasting notes would help choose a bean, tasting notes should be present on all beans on a roasters website, you should look at those then decide what you want.

Forgot whats hot, its what you like that counts.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MWJB said:


> Has Bean list roasting suggestions for their beans.
> 
> Fruitiness comes primarily from the origin of the bean & how the bean is processed.


Ive always wanted a dark chocolate and nutty kenyan or washed yirg ; )


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## saxobob (Dec 26, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> I don't believe roasting notes would help choose a bean, tasting notes should be present on all beans on a roasters website, you should look at those then decide what you want.
> 
> Forgot whats hot, its what you like that counts.


Thanks for taking the time to reply. I think your final sentence sums it up. I like medium roast (or a 50/50 mix of medium and darkish), east African coffee the most, and my favourites have been from Kenya and Ethiopia over the years but I'm up for anything. Except... I really dislike very lightly roasted coffee, hence my plea for more roasters to mention the roast. I also have enjoyed Guatemalan coffee (filter) with a slightly darker medium roast, and quite dark Brazilian Santos if made in a vac-pot.

I'm not a big fan of cupping notes (have a look at http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis), and also since one person's meat is another's poison. Notes can also easily lapse into the usual "rhubarb with hints of toasted cinnamon". As a musician I can imagine trying to describe the sound of, say, a mouth organ... "velvety with raspy potential and a thick harmonic overtone" - does that sum things up nicely? To help you understand what one sounds like?

Once I find a store where the descriptions match my experience then I'll use them as a basis for taking their recommendations. Hill and Valley used to do it for me, as did Monmouth Coffee House in the 80s. Not so much luck with what I've tried recently.

*Thanks again to everyone for your assistance, esp those suggesting stores that include some indication of the roast they've used*, though none of those I've looked at mention proximity to first or second crack as a degree of roast. As with lots of things, Sweet Marias in the US have good info here:http://www.sweetmarias.com/library/content/using-sight-determine-degree-roast

Cheers

Rob


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

saxobob said:


> *Thanks again to everyone for your assistance, esp those suggesting stores that include some indication of the roast they've used*, though none of those I've looked at mention proximity to first or second crack as a degree of roast. As with lots of things, Sweet Marias in the US have good info here:http://www.sweetmarias.com/library/content/using-sight-determine-degree-roast
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rob


Problem is Rob, that the look of the Bean, first second crack etc doesn't really give you any idea of what a bean will deliver in the cup. If you read the tasting notes then you want low acidity, chocolate, nuts etc.. Just stay away from the fruity stuff.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

saxobob said:


> *Thanks again to everyone for your assistance, esp those suggesting stores that include some indication of the roast they've used*, though none of those I've looked at mention proximity to first or second crack as a degree of roast. As with lots of things, Sweet Marias in the US have good info here:http://www.sweetmarias.com/library/content/using-sight-determine-degree-roast
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rob


Look under cupping notes @ Has Bean:

http://www.hasbean.co.uk/collections/asia/products/celebes-toarco-tana-toraja-kalosi-typica-aa-washed


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## saxobob (Dec 26, 2014)

Thanks MWJB, I'd not seen that page. Just what I'm looking for. I'll try them! [though the description on the coffee you ink to is a hilarious example of meaningless nonsense... "In the cup expect a full body with Black Jack sweets, and a strange lychee acidity that finishes withOpal Fruit ("Starburst," for the kids) purple sweets. "]


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I'd say the primary flavours Steve identifies in the coffee is pretty much always there.

The Guardian article you linked relates more to subjective scoring than tasting, if taste (identifying flavour compounds) were that easily influenced we'd all be putting our thumbs over the first letter of the pot and pouring custard on our hot dogs & mustard on our crumbles, after all it's a fact that custard & mustard are only 14% different. ;-)


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

saxobob said:


> Hello all,
> 
> As a onetime home roaster, I know the difference a bolder roast can make to a particular bean's outcome.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100%, very few online roasters categorise the roast as Light, Medium, Medium Dark Dark etc.. for the roast you are ordering and they will roast for you. There is always a load of tasting notes, fruity this, hints of marzipan with a cherry finish sort of thing. However good solid information like the roast level....is omitted. This information is important as particular beans may not be to your liking if too dark or too light....or the preparation method you intend to use may be unsuitable for certain roast levels.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

saxobob said:


> though the description on the coffee you ink to is a hilarious example of meaningless nonsense...


It would be meaningless nonsense if the coffee in question tasted of something else


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## saxobob (Dec 26, 2014)

"if the coffee in question tasted of something else" Yep, that's my suggestion but I would be pleasantly surprised to be proved wrong!

However I've never tasted a black coffee that tastes of anything but coffee, sometimes more fragrant, sometimes more acidic, sometimes burnt, sometimes too mild, or too bold or sometimes smooth... but never glucose/aniseed or lychee or Juicy Fruit. It's not that I'm not believing that someone can taste all that stuff in different bottled waters, different wines, whiskeys or coffees.

I'm asking for an extra little something altogether less subjective for those of us that want it - and there are at least two of us now (me and DavecUK)!

As Mr Gradgrind would say "facts, facts facts!"


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## andymccoy (Oct 29, 2014)

Rave list the roast eg. Light/Medium, Medium/dark etc


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

What does coffee taste of? If it just tastes of roasted stuff & coffee flavour, then why not drop a few coffee Revels in your drink, a Walnut whip maybe, stir in some Nescafe?

If you have no interest in the variety available, why bother searching?

Half of the phrases you use to describe coffee seem to describe malfunctions, if a drink of something that has no malfunctions is all you seek, then you should be an easy man to please?

And you said you liked East African coffees? If supermarket preground soot can't mask the fruit flavour of a Yirgacheffe, what the hell have you been drinking?

Do you drink wine, whisky? Do they all just taste of wine or whisky (I'll overlook the suggestion that water tastes of Juicy fruit, that may have been a joke - I have trouble recognising humour).

Facts are facts, what you choose to believe may dovetail with some facts, maybe not with others. What is more factual about describing a degree of brownness, than a taste?

Pass the custard, I mean mustard...it doesn't really matter which, the fact is they are both yellow...


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

saxobob said:


> "if the coffee in question tasted of something else" Yep, that's my suggestion but I would be pleasantly surprised to be proved wrong!


Nothing need be proven. If the coffee is extracted correctly the notes are there. Acidity references are where people get confused. If a coffee has an ''apple-like acidity'' then drinking the coffee will be reminiscent of eating an apple and the affects of malic acid in the mouth , rather than it actually tasting like an apple.


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## gcogger (May 18, 2013)

As has already been stated, Coffee Compass indicate roast level in the form of medium/mahogany/extra dark etc. You'd have to try a couple to get a feel for what it means. I believe Union also list coffees by roast level.

Contrary to some of the views here, I personally find this to be a very important piece of information. After having tried countless coffees from many suppliers, the one common theme is that it has to be a dark roast for me to really enjoy it. The tasting notes don't help me anywhere near as much. Each to their own...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gcogger said:


> As has already been stated, Coffee Compass indicate roast level in the form of medium/mahogany/extra dark etc. You'd have to try a couple to get a feel for what it means. I believe Union also list coffees by roast level.
> 
> Contrary to some of the views here, I personally find this to be a very important piece of information. After having tried countless coffees from many suppliers, the one common theme is that it has to be a dark roast for me to really enjoy it. The tasting notes don't help me anywhere near as much. Each to their own...


Years ago it was far more common to see the roast level listed...but in these days of roast n post...fewer roasters list the roast level. It's a totally reasonable thing to expect them all to do, as they must know what level they are going to roast it to, before they start roasting? Sure I guess you can always ring them and ask, but in these Internet times of click n order, who wants to do that.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Interesting thread! - difficult for roasters this. Mainly because there are no agreed definitions that really exist around roast colours, one mans medium is another's light etc. I do think it's worth saying that approaches to roasting seem to me to have changed a lot in the past few years, at least within the quality coffee market. It's not just about how long you leave the beans in the roaster, there are many ways to get to the end result in terms of how the heat is imparted into the beans. As such, colour is no longer the most important defining characteristic i.e the degree of development doesn't necessarily relate to colour.

I don't agree that tasting notes are completely daft either but of course they are subjective to a degree. Over time, we decide whether or not we agree with the palette of the individuals that roast the coffee we like. Personally, I've always been impressed by Has Beans descriptions, spot on.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

One solution could be to include the Agtron level for each roast

This way there is consistency in the numbers - as one man's light might be another's medium - to the naked eye

This is not a cheap solution and there are not many roasters I know who have an Agtron meter


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> Interesting thread! - difficult for roasters this. Mainly because there are no agreed definitions that really exist around roast colours, one mans medium is another's light etc. I do think it's worth saying that approaches to roasting seem to me to have changed a lot in the past few years, at least within the quality coffee market. It's not just about how long you leave the beans in the roaster, there are many ways to get to the end result in terms of how the heat is imparted into the beans. As such, colour is no longer the most important defining characteristic i.e the degree of development doesn't necessarily relate to colour.


I don't think it's a problem to indicate to a customer that a coffee is Light, Light-Medium, Medium, Medium-Dark, Dark, Very Dark. We can dance around using Agtron meters, tiles number or whatever in the pursuit of doing nothing. A customer understand simple descriptions of roast level I have used. You can split hairs and say one mans whatever is another mans whatever...but again more excuse for doing nothing. I don't think it's good enough for a customer to not know the general roast level he is getting on a bean and to give an indication (even if it's not exact is far far better than nothing at all.

I can understand why roast and post roasters don't like listing the roast level.....but as customers you should expect to have it listed. I have noticed many Roasters are happy to list a lot of stuff which really does mean nothing to a customer...so to argue that roast level is difficult doesn't seem to make any sense?

The customer doesn't have a lot to go on, he doesn't know the temperatures reached, time of 1st, time of 2nd, how the roast curve progressed...but he does at least understand colour. Despite what you say, colour is an important marker in a roast...it's not the sole one, but it's also something you cannot discount as unimportant.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> I don't think it's a problem to indicate to a customer that a coffee is Light, Light-Medium, Medium, Medium-Dark, Dark, Very Dark. We can dance around using Agtron meters, tiles number or whatever in the pursuit of doing nothing. A customer understand simple descriptions of roast level I have used. You can split hairs and say one mans whatever is another mans whatever...but again more excuse for doing nothing. I don't think it's good enough for a customer to not know the general roast level he is getting on a bean and to give an indication (even if it's not exact is far far better than nothing at all.
> 
> I can understand why roast and post roasters don't like listing the roast level.....but as customers you should expect to have it listed. I have noticed many Roasters are happy to list a lot of stuff which really does mean nothing to a customer...so to argue that roast level is difficult doesn't seem to make any sense?
> 
> The customer doesn't have a lot to go on, he doesn't know the temperatures reached, time of 1st, time of 2nd, how the roast curve progressed...but he does at least understand colour. Despite what you say, colour is an important marker in a roast...it's not the sole one, but it's also something you cannot discount as unimportant.


I do think you make a fair point, it's just not straightforward is what I'm saying. I've seen good evidence for this on the forum with the whole 'Has Bean roast light' argument, whereas the roaster considers themselves to be roasting 'medium'. Continuing with the Has Bean example, I think it's hard to say that they roast light or medium. They're definitely not producing Scandinavian type roasts for the most part. I think what matters most is that customers get to know how a particular roaster goes about the roasting process and over time they develop an understanding that a particular roaster tends to go about things in a way that fits with their tastes. So, to finish the Has Bean thing - after trying a lot of their beans, I know that they may come in a variety of colours, but I also know that they will always be soluble (and therefore), well roasted.

Similarly, when we did the LSOL, we had a couple of comments where people were saying that they didn't think that the beans were particularly light roasted. For us they were, but again it's down to individual perception stuff.

I do wholeheartedly agree with the principle that we should be giving customers as much useful information as possible though and I'm always happy to look at ways of doing this - I just haven't found a way of using the colour of the beans to do this as yet.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> I do wholeheartedly agree with the principle that we should be giving customers as much useful information as possible though and I'm always happy to look at ways of doing this - I just haven't found a way of using the colour of the beans to do this as yet.


Every roaster has a different perception of light and dark, this doesn't matter at all. What matters is that you use a consistent description that your customers understand. After a few orders they will totally understand your description of medium, light, medium-dark etc.. This helps them and that can only be a good thing for you. I have seen this done a few ways for customers who don't know your roasts.

e.g. "We describe our roasts as light, dark etc.., but we do tend to roast on the lighter side of those descriptions".....or describe what you call medium vs a colour everyone understands to give a reference point e.g. cadbury milk chocolate (a surprisingly consistent colour) or whatever. The important thing is this gives the customers a ballpark figure. If you are roasting in such a way as to minimise the colour for the depth of roast (for want of a better term), then you can say this. Our beans are slightly lighter for the depth of roast we achieve...how you do that is perhaps less important, be it a slightly lower max temp for longer than perhaps another bean etc..of course avoiding baked is tricky. I think it can be done (describing the colour of roast) fairly successfully and many roasters manage it. You just have to set the reference points.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I have found very little <helpful> correlation between visual roast colour and cup profile. Its why cupping for each individual coffee is so important.</helpful>

i've tasted 5 different coffees from the same area of the same farm , same varietal , all identical looking roasts and yet some tasted way more developed than others. You'd swear they they radially different roast profiles if blind tasting.

You can have a 'light-medium' which tastes roasty and meddled with

You can have a 'dark-medium' which lacks sweetness and could be taken a touch further

So what does the customer do with the with roasting info?

Personally the definition of the roast colour is the LAST piece of useful info to me a person wanting to brew coffee.

Is it a roaster I trust?

Are the tasting notes tempting?

Whats the story behind this coffee?


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