# Questions i've wanted to ask...



## oracleoftruth (Jan 15, 2014)

...but was too busy making coffee to bother.

1. Why do Roasters send out coffee right after roasting and then ask me to wait 10 days before drinking it?

2. Is robusta really that bad? Why do rave/Italians use it?

3. Why do so many coffee houses buy hugely expensive equipment and then seem to not bother training their staff to use it?

4. Why do people like americanos?

5. Why isn't there more innovation in machines at lower end and grinders at any end?

That'll do for now


----------



## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

1. Why have it sitting in stock, best to get it out to you so you can stare at it in your cupboard thinking it must be ready now!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

1. Deferred gratification is good for you

2. Nescafe has Robusta in it - nuff said

3. To annoy savvy customers

4. Why not?

5. Profit margins


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> 1. Deferred gratification is good for you
> 
> 2. Nescafe has Robusta in it - nuff said
> 
> ...


Excellent and to the point.

Can we close this thread now


----------



## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

> 1. Why do Roasters send out coffee right after roasting and then ask me to wait 10 days before drinking it?


You don't always have to wait 10 days, with a lot of lighter roasts I get from HasBean I happily dig in after 3-4 days and although still too fresh for espresso I've had some nice brewed. With fresh coffee you dictate how long to rest it etc. I've rejected coffee sent to me 10 days old before from roasters claiming fresh.



> 2. Is robusta really that bad? Why do rave/Italians use it?


Yes. It adds a certain tone to the coffee, that is just associated with traditional Italian blends that some people love. It's also really cheap. Coffee Real were actually selling a 100% robusta specialty coffee a while back, the smell was hideous so i declined a drink made for me from it but maybe I should have persevered, for science?



> 3. Why do so many coffee houses buy hugely expensive equipment and then seem to not bother training their staff to use it?


They don't know they can do better, and think they are doing excellent coffee. A lot of these are probably leased machines tbh, illy and poor quality local roasters serving commodity beans will offer small cafes rental and service agreements for machine, grinder, maintenance etc and you have to buy their beans. In a busy environment you need a large 2 group machine to keep up.



> 4. Why do people like americanos?


It's a cool thing to say and order, made cool by tv and films? People want a larger black coffee, filter is seen as uncool and old fashioned unless you are into it like us. Often if someone sees me order a filter or an aeropress they'll look really interested as the barista preps it, and if they try one they quite like it. I believe if you start telling people that a filter will taste better than an americano and your coffee proves it you can win them round. Of course a filter takes longer to make for a barista in a busy bar, and winning people round to bulk/batch brew is an even bigger challenge.



> 5. Why isn't there more innovation in machines at lower end and grinders at any end?


There is actually loads, but to build a temperature stable espresso machine that delivers consistent results costs a lot of money. You need a lot of metal. Lots of people have tried with good intentions, and the cost has gone above what they initially wanted to sell at.

It's similar for grinders, you can get a burr grinder for under £100 but it isn't any good. You need good quality parts, proven burrs, lots of metal again.

I do think cheaper espresso machines and grinders will come though, but wait until they prove themselves before jumping on!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

1. Would you rather they were roasted sat waiting in case you need to order. Hang on they would go stale....









2. Try it see if you like it.

3. Coz they pay minimum wage, staff turnover is high and they aren't very good at training.

4. Why not : pretty anti ameican of you. What do you think they should like

5. Coffee shops don't care about single dosing or retention. Selling same thing again is easier. And yes they are slowly miret new grinders coming in board


----------



## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Coffee Real actually have 2 specialty robustas at the moment.

http://www.coffeereal.co.uk/india-sethuraman-est-fine-robusta-pb-p-603.html

http://www.coffeereal.co.uk/india-sethuraman-est-mandarin-robusta-p-602.html

I'm going to have to see if Littlehaven in Norwich still have it on the brew bar next time I walk past and try it. scary!


----------



## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

If anyone wants some robusta greens, I have three or four hundred grams which is yours for the price of the postage.

I don't remember where they're from but it may be India.

The home-roasters chance to try them out for yourself!!


----------



## oracleoftruth (Jan 15, 2014)

Great answers. In partial response, americanos for me have none of the benefits of espresso or brewed and the conflation of filter coffee with them really annoys me. Yes; I am that petty. Was told by a costa staff member it was the same thing once. Says a lot.

I'd be interested in trying a speciality robusta. I may well regret it.

I do wonder if the answer to a lot of this is people being willing to pay for a romantic view of italian coffee rather than for taste or quality.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Am confused which part or question your last sentence refers to?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

oracleoftruth said:


> ...but was too busy making coffee to bother.
> 
> 1. Why do Roasters send out coffee right after roasting and then ask me to wait 10 days before drinking it?
> 
> ...


1. If they're roasting tons of coffee every week, they don't want to use valuable space storing roasted coffee, they want it shipped.

2. Yeah, robusta has no place in your cup

3. Staff wages, retention and training costs much more than the equipment, the initiial equipment cost is only a VERY small part of the amortised costs of a coffee house.

4. cos they're nice when made properly

5. Many reasons. it's a box shifters market, low end machines are made to a cost and to serve a less demanding market. Innovation costs money and margins are small, plus who is batting in your corner for these improvement on the low end machines. With grinders it's difficult to Innovate...they grind coffee. The people who make the grinder manufacturers the most money are usually not people like you. Innovation is also incredibly risky and sometimes isn't better. can think of some new innovative grinders I wouldn't want to own. Also looking to the past for ideas wouldn't be a bad idea for some of them. One of the nice ways to set up a prosumer grinder would be in the same way as a Santos or EK grinder with the Vertical burr orientation.....the problem is it doesn't work as well on smaller grinders. however on bulk grinders with burrs of 70 to 150mm+ it can work very well. Of course theres pros and cons to this approach as well and probably why Mythos tried angling the burrs. One of the best ideas I ever saw for flat burr grinders was the old LM Disco Volante grinder...now if someone could play around with that, it could be very interesting.

Other innovations could be:


The ability to align the burrs exactly on the flats, so each burrset is sold as a matched pair, which can then be absolutely aligned properly on the grinder, using adjusters under one of the burr sets. e.g. to adjust to wipe out a continuous ring (blued) on the flat portion of an adjustable but fixed burr. By adjustable, I mean adjustable in the horizontal plane using 3 adjusters and to 10ths of a thou.

Very very stable and constant speed motors, burrs that stop instantly (braked) and run up to speed ASAP (perhaps using an energised mag drive unit or fluid drive, so the motor is fully up to speed before the burrs are engaged)

Very good very good bearings

Silicone archimedes type screw in the exit chute so nothings retained, Grind chamber sweeper arms than continue moving once the burrs have stopped, forced air in the burr chamber after the grinder has stopped to remove those last grinds


Lost of silly ideas there and even if they are not...who would ever build those in when they can make so much money building ordinary non innovative stuff.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Disco volante is a pretty looking grinder ..,

You don't see many of those


----------



## oracleoftruth (Jan 15, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Am confused which part or question your last sentence refers to?


Well robusta is used in italian coffee so some roasters use it to recreate that coffee. Having an espresso made long drink is more like what they have in italy and making sure that nothing changes from the italian designed machines of the romanticised past rather than innovation. Also why have brewed coffee when people like the sound and smell and appearance of terribly made espresso. It's about romaticism and nostalgia.


----------



## oracleoftruth (Jan 15, 2014)

WOW. Just looked up the disco volante and it is beautiful. Most things on this page having incredible design. http://www.lamarzocco.com/en/component/content/article.html?id=205


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

oracleoftruth said:


> Great answers. In partial response, americanos for me have none of the benefits of espresso or brewed and the conflation of filter coffee with them really annoys me. Yes; I am that petty. Was told by a costa staff member it was the same thing once. Says a lot.


I see it a little different. Americano gives you the speed of extraction of espresso, using a common grind & dose to regular shots, with the longer drink & lower concentration associated with filter coffee. If you're waiting in a queue and the guy in front asks for a longer coffee that takes 5minutes to make...what would you rather the barista did, top up a shot with hot water, or disappear for 5 minutes?

Will it taste the same as a filter brew? Do all filter brews tate the same? Have you A/B'd that Americano with a permanent filter brew (same coffee) at the same extraction & concentration (if not, you might be comparing apples to oranges)?

If a barista has been trained to make hot brown drinks, customers (who quite often like the things that adorn the hot brown drink, more than the hot brown drink itself) are happy with those hot brown drinks & coming back for more, have they not been trained adequately? Could it be better, more consistent? Sure, but a lot of people go to work to pay bills & fritter money on hobbies, like searching for the holy grail of the perfect cup of coffee...nice if the 2 dovetail, but a bit optimistic to expect it to be the norm. A business exists to generate turnover, keep people in employment, make a little profit - if your customers universally hate what you are doing, they vote with their feet & you fold...unless your location is such that convenience/footfall wins out and there's always a steady supply of mugs, or folk who weigh up the pros/cons & make a conscious compromise. And if it is convenience & footfall that drives turnover, can you be sure that improved "quality" would increase it & offset increased overheads & investment?


----------



## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

I must be the only one thinking that there is nothing wrong with blends with a little bit of Robusta from time to time.

I'd say, buy a bag of Rave Italian Job and make up your own mind.

Another comment I am going to make is that Robusta blends have a stronger kick and therefore are probably disliked more by those swearing by a 1.6 ratio extraction.

On the subject of Robusta, I was in Corsica last summer and visited the local coffee roaster in Ile Rousse. He was just finishing roasting a batch for the local bars and so I decided to get some.

When I asked what it was he told me 50% arabica and 50% good quality robusta.

My chin hit the floor but I didn't want to offend and just bought coffee and left.

Back in the UK I was very pleasantly surprised by how well balanced the 50/50 blend was and wished I bought more.

Try it and decide for yourself.

By the way, I don't think anybody, anywhere, would drink a 100% robusta if they have a choice.

IMO It only works in blends.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Wando64 said:


> By the way, I don't think anybody, anywhere, would drink a 100% robusta if they have a choice.
> 
> IMO It only works in blends.


Well there are some people (not me), who like Kopi Luwak, that's Robusta and there's a lot of instant coffee drinkers out there drinking pure Robusta.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nescaf%C3%A9-Instant-Coffee-Aroma-Robusta/dp/B00ER6AACQ

They have a choice and yet they still drink it...mystery to me as well.


----------

