# Sage Barista Pro (Supermarket Bean Settings)



## PJ03029174

Hi

About a week ago I purchased a Barista Pro which I'm having trouble dialling in. I've only ever drank Americano's in work and the odd Expresso. I've already gone through a bag of John Lewis Ethiopian Lumu beans and decided to get two bags of "Starbucks Blond Expresso" to improve my dialling in skills. I got through a hole bag today without getting a nice shot out of it. I'm very much a beginner but even though I was going pretty fine on the grind (5 for example) on some tests, I was struggling to get the 30s shot duration. I think initially this might have been bad tamping on my part but I've been trying to tamp more firmly and evenly.

I was just wondering if anyone could post their settings for commonly available Supermarket beans to get a good ballpark starting place before I experiment with better quality beans. Maybe I can pickup a bag ( I appreciate no two bags will be identical but I'd hope to get near). In all the threads I've seen, I don think I've ever seen settings 5 or less on the grinder.

I've also invested in a Acaia Luna scale which I got a good deal on so have been using that to time, I've also found it pretty confusing when to take measurements regarding shot timing. I've been using the Auto Tare Auto Timer function which starts the timer when I put the shot glass on the scale. I've been doing that just after pressing the 2 cup button to start the shot.

The settings I finished today were ..

Bean = Starbucks Blond Expresso
Grind size 7
Grind Time 14s
Resulted in Dose of 16.5g

Extraction time of 19sec (including 5s of pre infusion)
Yield = 33.3g

Taste = Awful, very sour.

I'd really appreciate any help, any suggestions from more experienced forum members would be really useful. TIA


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## joey24dirt

I'd probably say the beans you are using are stale. Do they have a 'roasted on' date on the packet?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PJ03029174

Fair call, maybe Supermarket beans are a big no go ..

Prod date = 18/09/2019
Best Before = 13/05/2020

I have a bag of "Square Mile, Red Brick" arriving tomorrow which was roasted 19/11/19 so will try with that.

Was hoping to practice with the cheap stuff but it looks like that was a bad idea ..


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## Cooffe

PJ03029174 said:


> Fair call, maybe Supermarket beans are a big no go ..
> 
> Prod date = 18/09/2019
> Best Before = 13/05/2020
> 
> I have a bag of "Square Mile, Red Brick" arriving tomorrow which was roasted 19/11/19 so will try with that.
> 
> Was hoping to practice with the cheap stuff but it looks like that was a bad idea ..


 1kg of rave signature is cheap enough IMHO to practice with (although some of the Black Friday deals were real good). Likely you'll get it sorted within less than 1kg and should be fine. Would suggest keeping it in the freezer after 4-10 day degas if you don't have an airscape or anything of the sort. Added benefit if you order online is that it's nornally roasted to order so within a couple of days it gets to you.

see if setting #1 on the grinder chokes the machine. If it doesn't, you may have to pop off the hopper and adjust the outer burr. I had to do this when I had my Barista Express.


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## PJ03029174

thanks for the help, I actually noticed a post on another thread which recommended a higher dose and longer pull for older beans and this seemed to help last nigh, still a bit rough but better than anything I was getting at 17g

I'm going to try the beans that were roasted 3 weeks ago tonight and see how I get on with them.


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## PJ03029174

Fresh coffee made a big difference, using the grind 4 was way to fine and I hardly got any coffee out. Upped it to 6 and tested but might need to go to 7. Also a new toy from the states arrived today which is a 53mm distributor / tamper 2 in one which I think will really help me with my consistency. Very impressed with it so far.


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## -Mac

Don't know if the Barista Pro is the same as BE, but the BE tends to work best with 19-10g.


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## PJ03029174

Thanks for the input -mac-

im okay with the 19, but what does the following -10g mean? Not sure if it's a typo and you meant 19-20g Or if I'm missing something?

thanks


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## -Mac

Yes, sorry, meant to type 19-20g.

I used to find that supermarket beans (which are usually old and dry even when bought freshly) need more dosage, finer grind and harder tamp.


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## alex13p

First post from me, just joined.

I have the SBP and have been using the Blonde Espresso beans from Starbucks.

Found for a double shot these settings work well -

Bean = Starbucks Blond Expresso
Grind size 12
Grind Time 15s
Resulted in Dose of ... no idea... how are you measuring this? My kitchen scales don't even register a change of weight when I tried to weigh.

Extraction time of 24-26sec (including 5s of pre infusion) seemingly dependent on tamping pressure
Yield = No idea.

Taste = Delicious!


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## PJ03029174

Hi Alex, thanks for the info

I bought another two bags and have been practicing a lot but changed to Americanos from Expresso, here's my info









More info

I've started measuring 20g of coffee beans and grinding till empty, I usually stop every 5 seconds to shake and flatten the ground coffee

If all the coffee hasn't been ground, I manually push the portafilter until it's clear then re weigh. (that results in Final Dose)

Total Extraction time includes Pre Infusion

Hope it helps someone


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## PJ03029174

alex13p said:


> First post from me, just joined.
> 
> I have the SBP and have been using the Blonde Espresso beans from Starbucks.
> 
> Found for a double shot these settings work well -
> 
> Bean = Starbucks Blond Expresso
> Grind size 12
> Grind Time 15s
> Resulted in Dose of ... no idea... how are you measuring this? My kitchen scales don't even register a change of weight when I tried to weigh.
> 
> Extraction time of 24-26sec (including 5s of pre infusion) seemingly dependent on tamping pressure
> Yield = No idea.
> 
> Taste = Delicious!


 I invested in a used Acaia Lunar Expresso scale which is V expensive and overkill for what I eventually ended up using it for. When I bought it I thought I'd use the App and the automatic timer which starts when it recognises the start of an Expresso pour. In reality, the App was awful and the timer starts during the start of the pour and does not include pre infusion and accounting for that turned out to be a PITA, especially when the Barista Pro shows a timer when you pour (unfortunately the time disappears very quick but I'm used to looking out for it now)


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## Inept

PJ

hope you've sorted this now. If you haven't my advice as follows.

1. Throw the scales away...

2. Start with a grind about 8 and 15s for supermarket beans.

3. Carefully observe the result. Good extraction should take 8 - 12s infusion and a up to 35s for extraction. The result creama should be black with a light brown 'mousse' .

4. The puck should be dry.

5. If any of this isnt happening check pg14 of the manual for corrections. If bitter make the grind larger and reduce time. If watery and sour decrease grind size and increase time.

6. The amount of tamped coffee when finished should just cover the metal rim on the tamp device. Dont need to use the razor.

7. The sage has settings to change the head temperature and time. You shouldnt need to mess with these.

If the above doesnt work for you. I would recommend finding a local barrista supplier. There are a load out there who offer training on making good coffee, creaming the milk and cafe art...

Hope this helps enjoy your coffee.


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## MWJB

Inept said:


> PJ
> 
> hope you've sorted this now. If you haven't my advice as follows.
> 
> 1. Throw the scales away...
> 
> 2. Start with a grind about 8 and 15s for supermarket beans.
> 
> 3. Carefully observe the result. Good extraction should take 8 - 12s infusion and a up to 35s for extraction. The result creama should be black with a light brown 'mousse' .
> 
> 4. The puck should be dry.
> 
> 5. If any of this isnt happening check pg14 of the manual for corrections. If bitter make the grind larger and reduce time. If watery and sour decrease grind size and increase time.
> 
> 6. The amount of tamped coffee when finished should just cover the metal rim on the tamp device. Dont need to use the razor.
> 
> 7. The sage has settings to change the head temperature and time. You shouldnt need to mess with these.
> 
> If the above doesnt work for you. I would recommend finding a local barrista supplier. There are a load out there who offer training on making good coffee, creaming the milk and cafe art...
> 
> Hope this helps enjoy your coffee.


 "Ring ring.... ring ring....". The 1990's just called, they'd like their espresso making advice back....

You can't tell much from the colour of the crema, because crema is a byproduct of the CO2 and it extracts quickly, the flavour compounds in coffee extract much more slowly.

Bitterness has several causes, only one is over-extraction and it's a certain kind of bitterness.

Scales will help you troubleshoot much faster than eyeballing & timing (brewing coffee takes time, but time is not a good indicator of brew quality).

I can't understand how Sage produce such modern machines, but so much witchcraft about using them.


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## CoffeeScience

I really would suggest to give up on Supermarket beans and support the amazing coffee roasters the UK has to offer.

Red Brick is, of course, one of the best.. others I would highly recommend are Ozone Coffee Roasters. I've been using them for the last 4 months with the Barista Pro and had consistently great results. Here is a little review and video I put together

https://www.coffeescience.org/sage-barista-pro-espresso-coffee-machine-review/






Happy to answer any questions or take on any feedback. Thanks


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## facboy

ozone, that's a good shout. i went there quite a lot prior to all this, dunno why i didn't decide to order from them!


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## Tunn300

> 2 hours ago, CoffeeScience said:
> 
> I really would suggest to give up on Supermarket beans and support the amazing coffee roasters the UK has to offer.
> 
> Red Brick is, of course, one of the best.. others I would highly recommend are Ozone Coffee Roasters. I've been using them for the last 4 months with the Barista Pro and had consistently great results. Here is a little review and video I put together
> 
> https://www.coffeescience.org/sage-barista-pro-espresso-coffee-machine-review/


 I watched your video. Some things I personally wouldn't do or recommend.

Don't use tap water in your machine unless your water is incredibly soft. Absolute minimum is filtered water.

On your video your screen is showing flush. You need to do that ASAP. I flush mine fortnightly at least.

You need to pull some blank shots through the portafilter too to heat that not just the group head.

also worth mentioning purging the steam wand the moment you have finished steaming milk or you are going to end up with milk in your machine causing all sorts of problems.

I would watch some videos on the best techniques to steam milk. Your position doesn't look great and the pour could use some work, especially if you are then going to try and plug your latte art article.

Don't want to come across as too critical but using a name like coffee science and then putting videos like this on YouTube may mean people watching it and thinking they are doing the best thing when some of these things (water in particular) could be detrimental to their machines. I imagine lockdown means there are lots of new Barista Pro owners and some will be searching YouTube for how to videos.


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## PJ03029174

really enjoyed the video and some good points made by Tunn300

I'm still struggling with this machine but getting better, I'm sure its the coffee I'm using and I just need to spend more.

I'm currently using Solimo from Amazon which is £10 for 2kg. Im on grind 2, 19.1g for 38g - 42g out in 30 secs. (I only drink Americano)

I read the manual the other day to see how many grams we should be using and from memory I think it said 20-22g?

I can remember thinking I have to use a funnel to get 19 g in without it making a right mess everywhere.


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## Tunn300

PJ03029174 said:


> really enjoyed the video and some good points made by Tunn300
> 
> I'm still struggling with this machine but getting better, I'm sure its the coffee I'm using and I just need to spend more.
> 
> I'm currently using Solimo from Amazon which is £10 for 2kg. Im on grind 2, 19.1g for 38g - 42g out in 30 secs. (I only drink Americano)
> 
> I read the manual the other day to see how many grams we should be using and from memory I think it said 20-22g?
> 
> I can remember thinking I have to use a funnel to get 19 g in without it making a right mess everywhere.


 I would say those beans are not helping you at all. Does it say when the beans were roasted? If they are over a month old then I think you will struggle to get a good shot.

Paying a bit more from any of the recommended roasters on here should see you getting much better results.

I personally weigh my output from the grinder and use 18.5G of coffee. I do use a dosing funnel to make sure all of this gets into the basket. I then pull a manual shot weighing my shot and stopping at around a 2:1 ratio.


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## TomHughes

Tunn300 said:


> I would say those beans are not helping you at all. Does it say when the beans were roasted? If they are over a month old then I think you will struggle to get a good shot.
> 
> Paying a bit more from any of the recommended roasters on here should see you getting much better results.
> 
> I personally weigh my output from the grinder and use 18.5G of coffee. I do use a dosing funnel to make sure all of this gets into the basket. I then pull a manual shot weighing my shot and stopping at around a 2:1 ratio.


 Agree with this. Bin those beans. I mentioned this in my long sticky post. The sages (like most coffee machines) need decent beans! Shit in equals shit out!


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## PJ03029174

Just ordered a bag from Ozone, would you say grind size 11 would be a good place to start? (I think that's what was used in the video)


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## Tunn300

PJ03029174 said:


> Just ordered a bag from Ozone, would you say grind size 11 would be a good place to start? (I think that's what was used in the video)


 I am never normally that high on a fresh bean. I've just literally put some Fudge Blend from Rave in mine. It was on 9 from previous bean but shot pulled a 2:1 ration in about 22 seconds so have moved to grid setting 8. That may still be a little too coarse but will check when I pull my next shot.

Every bean is different so will have to just experiment. Not sure there is much in that video I would recommend. Tom Hughes sticky thread at the top of this forum is a much better resource.


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## BlackCatCoffee

I do not wish to be rude to the OP in any way but I am staggered by these Solimo beans. I cannot imagine what they are actually using.

They appear to be an Amazon product, I suppose economies of scale plays a major role but when you take in to account next day prime delivery must cost them £3 or so then you have packaging, transport, roasting, storage, labour, profit etc. There is probably under £1 a kilo left for the coffee. I am almost tempted to buy some and see what they are like.

They are UTZ certified which is intriguing. Shows you just what all the schemes mean.............


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## TomHughes

BlackCatCoffee said:


> I do not wish to be rude to the OP in any way but I am staggered by these Solimo beans. I cannot imagine what they are actually using.
> 
> They appear to be an Amazon product, I suppose economies of scale plays a major role but when you take in to account next day prime delivery must cost them £3 or so then you have packaging, transport, roasting, storage, labour, profit etc. There is probably under £1 a kilo left for the coffee. I am almost tempted to buy some and see what they are like.
> 
> They are UTZ certified which is intriguing. Shows you just what all the schemes mean.............


 Important to remember that there are plenty of products on Amazon which lose them money, they are there to get people on the site, and continue to buy product, particularly Prime stuff. Then they don't notice that a lot of prime stuff is more expensive than the same product non-prime and significantly more than other websites, but people buy it because they get it next day.


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## TomHughes

> 19 hours ago, CoffeeScience said:
> 
> I really would suggest to give up on Supermarket beans and support the amazing coffee roasters the UK has to offer.
> 
> Red Brick is, of course, one of the best.. others I would highly recommend are Ozone Coffee Roasters. I've been using them for the last 4 months with the Barista Pro and had consistently great results. Here is a little review and video I put together
> 
> https://www.coffeescience.org/sage-barista-pro-espresso-coffee-machine-review/


 I guess the question would be what does your review add to the body of knowledge on how to use this machine or make espresso?

I have issue with the word science, is there more science to come?

I am a researcher in science and the constant question is around novelty, what are you adding to the current body of knowledge by doing what you are doing? If you can't answer that question then you stop and think about what you are actually doing.

I'm afraid there was nothing new in that video, for that machine or for espresso/milk drink making. 
One of my massive bug bears on youtube is replication. no one is doing anything new.

Part of the reason I wrote that post at the top of the Sage forum was because it tried to provide an answer to all of the questions I had about my machine that I couldn't find on the internet.

Your video was very nice, you did some things that were spot on (as mentioned) but you didn't sell the machine to me, or really teach me much of how to use it, bar what I could get from a Sage promo video.


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## BlackCatCoffee

TomHughes said:


> Important to remember that there are plenty of products on Amazon which lose them money, they are there to get people on the site, and continue to buy product, particularly Prime stuff. Then they don't notice that a lot of prime stuff is more expensive than the same product non-prime and significantly more than other websites, but people buy it because they get it next day.


 I think that is a possible explanation but if they were operating this as a loss leader, on a product of £10 it would likely be tens of pennies so even then the cost per kilo of green coffee would still be deep in to bottom commodity grade stuff. I am still curious. I would probably end up pulling a few shots then having 2kg of coffee to deal with so it seems kinda wasteful......


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## TomHughes

BlackCatCoffee said:


> I think that is a possible explanation but if they were operating this as a loss leader, on a product of £10 it would likely be tens of pennies so even then the cost per kilo of green coffee would still be deep in to bottom commodity grade stuff. I am still curious. I would probably end up pulling a few shots then having 2kg of coffee to deal with so it seems kinda wasteful......


 Only 1 way to find out! 
Could always save it for unwanted 'guests'


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## PJ03029174

should get my new beans today and aim to start on grind 8, 19g. Aiming for 38g output in 30secs. Do you guys include the preinfusion time in the 30 second target time?

I've watched videos online and think the consensus is you start the timer when the coffee and water first make contact which is at the preinfusion stage.

Thanks


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## TomHughes

PJ03029174 said:


> should get my new beans today and aim to start on grind 8, 19g. Aiming for 38g output in 30secs. Do you guys include the preinfusion time in the 30 second target time?
> 
> I've watched videos online and think the consensus is you start the timer when the coffee and water first make contact which is at the preinfusion stage.
> 
> Thanks


 Time is not all that important, as long as it's within 15seconds-1 minute it can still be a tasty shot.

Why have you decided on 19 in and 38 out? You don't need to stick to this, in fact a lighter roast will probably taste better at 1:3 or more (allows sugars more time to dissolve) however if it's a dark roast you may need to cut it shorter to reduce bitterness, but this is only approximate.

Best thing to do is have a strategy, but play it by taste. 
Firstly, what bean are they? 
What altitude were they grown at and what roast level.

Lower altitude and darker roast, lets say Brazilian you may be looking at 17-18g, at a 1:2 ratio. 
Higher altitude and lighter roast, lets say Guatemalan SHB, you could be looking at 19-20g (due to high bean density) and a longer ratio of 1:3-4

I always manually pre-infuse for the full 10 seconds, then allow the shot to run until I have the desired weight in the cup.


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