# Mignon burrs missaligned?



## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Hi all,

I have an Eureka Mignon and I think it has a problem with burr

alignment. I'm getting quite a lot of coffee grounds in my espressos.

And I have noticed as well that I'm always brewing at around 90° because using more temperature gets the coffee over extracted, when most people seem to take 93° as a reference. Many people talk wonders about this small grinder so I think maybe my unit has a problem.

I have cleaned the grinder and when I have reasembled the burrs, I

have rotated by hand (grinder switched off!) the burrs slowly while

narrowing the grind setting to find the "zero point", the point when

burrs start touching. At this point, when I rotate the burrs, they touch only during half a turn. Thinking in a clock: burrs touch from 12 to 6, and do not touch from 6 to 12. Every turn is the same. Shouldn't

them touch evenly along the full turn? Burrs shouldn't be worn as the

Mignon has been used for about 14 months. Maybe burrs are not

properly aligned?

Thanks!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Firstly your perception of over extraction .. What dose of weight of coffee are you using and what weight out .over what time ? If you want to increase the temp-as and your suffering from over extraction then perhaps grind coarser or change the brew recipe to help balance the taste ? It's hard to tell if your over extracting won't out a brew recipe and some tasting notes .

Lastly what coffee - machine - and basket are you brewing with ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Lastly take apart again - make sure all is clean - no mess under bottom burr .

Put back together the right way . Try again


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## StuartS (Jan 2, 2015)

I'd check the top burr carrier is properly seated with nothing stuck underneath.


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Firstly your perception of over extraction .. What dose of weight of coffee are you using and what weight out .over what time ? If you want to increase the temp-as and your suffering from over extraction then perhaps grind coarser or change the brew recipe to help balance the taste ? It's hard to tell if your over extracting won't out a brew recipe and some tasting notes .
> 
> Lastly what coffee - machine - and basket are you brewing with ?


Thanks Mrboots2u,

Usually, a blend from Andrea Trinci called "since 1939". 15 grams to get two 21 grams espressos, that is close to 1:3 in about 22 seconds at 90°. Now I'm trying a very very dark napolitan blend, Moana from Passalacqua (not my cup of tea, cup of coffee in this case) and fines have increase quite a lot despite charging 16 grams and grinding coarser. Tried as well charging 18 grams but things got worst and the coffee messed the shower.

I have a Bezzera Unica. I replaced the stock basket for an IMS double, the 12-18 grams one. It reduced the gritt in cup problem and it's nearly ok with the Trinci, but if I try to go to a 1:2 ratio, fines in cup are a problem.


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Lastly take apart again - make sure all is clean - no mess under bottom burr .
> 
> Put back together the right way . Try again


I did it yesterday. It was quite dusty under bottom burr as you say, but now is perfectly clean. No improvement in cup. Anyway, I will try again.


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

StuartS said:


> I'd check the top burr carrier is properly seated with nothing stuck underneath.


Thanks StuartS,

I'll have a look.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Can you describe what you mean by fines in the cup ?

How much ? Is it impacting on the taste

Removing the grinder discussion

We are then into chat about whether 1:3 brew ratio for the type roast / bean you are using ( darker bean more soluable ) is appropriate for the taste you want


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Can you describe what you mean by fines in the cup ?


Sure! My english is not very good so... Here you have a photo:










With the Trinci is not as bad. Maybe not perfect, but nothing to worry about.


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Can you describe what you mean by fines in the cup ?
> 
> How much ? Is it impacting on the taste
> 
> ...


No problem with the Trinci, I like very much how it tastes with this ratio. But... I can not go to 1:2 because fines increase quite a lot. With other coffees it's worst.

Just to discard: what about that uncompacted coffee grounds sitting on the basket walls after tamping? May them "escape" from the puck and find an alternative way to the cup? It sounds quite unlikely but... Who knows... The puck after extraction is always dry an compact and there are no rests of coffee powder on the top of the filter walls.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Is the bottom of the basket clean? Are you sure some stray grinds are not getting stuck there and ending up in the cup? Also, is the gasket clean and, likewise, some grinds ending in the cup? I had a Mignon for a while and to be honest, I always ended with some grinds in the cup. What work for me was to get a basket with micro holes - like a La Marzocco Strada or a VST basket - and I ended up with very little or no grinds in the cup. Also, make sure you are not grinding too fine: Grind into the basket, give a good stir and see if things improve. If you have a bottomless portafilter, it is easier to see and track progress of your technique. Good luck.


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Thanks pessutojr,

I clean filter and poltafilter every 7-10 days with pully caff, so they may be clean. I am using an IMS filter, with the Bezzera stock basket it was worst. I do not pretend to be grind free, I think a little is normal in espresso. But not as much as I'm having now... I have bought a bottomless portafilter because I think as you say it will be related with some technical flaws.


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

I have talked to Gianni from elektros.it. I bought there my Bezzera and the service is outstanding. He has tried three Mignons he has on display at the store and all three have this little play between burrs. So it's not grinder related. Thanks Mrboots2u for "Removing the grinder discussion".

Apart from this, I have bought some ground coffee in a local roaster and despite having really quick shots, there were still fines in the cup. The grind was coarse: overdosing the basket (18 grams) and tamping beyond my possibilities -as I am thin at not very tall







- I have got a 20 seconds shot which tasted horrible! The puck ended touching the shower but didn't get stuck to it, thanks to my ultra strong tamping I guess...

So... It's quite clear: It has to be my fault! I will start from the very beggining and will try to discard everything. Will start dosing the same and playing with the grind.

Many thanks to everybody. Of course I will post my -hope!- progress.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Hi tocateclas.

I think you have figured this out, but one part of the burrs will always touch before the rest, this is common to most grinders.

The 'fines' in your cup dont look that fine.

Are you using a naked portafilter or normal?

When the shot pulls is there any liquid making it over the side of the basket, or does it all 100% come out of the spouts/base of basket?

If the shot is pulling correctly then it may be worth changing your basket, to see if this helps. An IMS (easy to use) or VST (considered best for flavour) basket are made to good standards.


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Thanks Dylan,

I have ordered a naked portafilter, now I'm using a normal one.

No liquid over the side. 100% through the spouts.

I'm using an IMS. I know I am doing something wrong! Hope to find it out with the naked.

Some people recomend to lower the opv pressure. I'm brewing at 11,5 bars, but other Unica users have this pressure with no fines issue.

And yes, they don't look that fine!

I'll keep trying.

Thank you all


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

tocateclas said:


> Thanks Dylan,
> 
> I have ordered a naked portafilter, now I'm using a normal one.
> 
> ...


I am surprised that you are getting these bits of coffee through an IMS basket, they look too big to be passing through the holes!

This seems unlikely, but make sure your portafilter (with the basket removed) is completely clean. Also make sure that no ground coffee is getting stuck to the portaflter when you grind your coffee.

Typically you should be brewing at 9 bar pressure (this may translate to 10bar on the dial, I cant remember if this is the case for a manometer that is built in, perhaps someone else can advise). This is all you need for brewing coffee. In addition when you receive advice about how to dial in a hot of espresso it is important for your machine to 'match' that of the person giving you advice. 9bar is the accepted brew pressure. I would change it if you can.


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Thanks again,

I supose it wouldn't be difficult to lower the opv pressure, but I have spoken with two Unica owners and neither have this issue with opv set in 12 bar. Of course I will lower the pressure and give a try if I can not find out where the problem is with the naked portafilter.

Today I have cleaned again filter and portafilter, I have run fresh water throug the portafilter to make sure nothing is wrong inside the spouts, I have removed shower and gasket and cleaned the group concientously. No improvement.

And I have tried preground coffee from local roaster. It was too coarse and despite overdosing and tamping very hard coffee flow was too fast. But for my surprise... Still fines! Some coffee grounds find their way to the cup, they seem too big as you say to pass through filter holes and there is no water outside the portafilter. So they must pass between portafilter and filter, but I can not understand how. Gasket is new and I have tighten the portafilter in the group... Will see if the naked portafilter helps to fix things up.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Fingers crossed the naked reveals the problem, but it is very unusual.

If you have any other baskets try them as well, perhaps the IMS basket you are using is not good?


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Dylan said:


> Fingers crossed the naked reveals the problem, but it is very unusual.
> 
> If you have any other baskets try them as well, perhaps the IMS basket you are using is not good?


Yes, fingers crossed...

I have the Bezzera stock basket, but it has bigger holes. I will try again with it. I'm receiving today a new IMS, a one cup one, and will try it as well. My filter seems to be ok, I can't apreciate any cracks and holes look quite even.

I will try with other coffee either.

Thanks again, hope to solve this mistery!

My espresso yesterday looked like this:


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Are these fines coming in as soon as pressure hits the puck ( being puffed out ? )

Trying to dial in a single basket will give you a whole new world of variables

Hows does it taste


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Are these fines coming in as soon as pressure hits the puck ( being puffed out ? )
> 
> Trying to dial in a single basket will give you a whole new world of variables
> 
> Hows does it taste


I don't know, how could I know when do they arrive to my cup? I can see nothing coming outside the portafilter, and after brewing it is clean and dry.

Yes, the single will be another world but I it could be similar fines related... Maybe

Not great but not bad. I know I am not giving you any clue! But I'm not really fond of this Passalacqua, and it's not as fresh as it should be. After opening the packet it was fine, but ten days after flavour declined quite a lot. I'm getting some fresh local coffee and keep trying.

Thanks again!


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

I have just made a couple of espressos using the IMS 1 cup filter. I have used a well known for me local blend. It's quite fine but not great, and it's freshly roasted. Not a dark roast, still no oils on beans.

First shot, 8 grams of coffee - 17 grams of espresso in 30 seconds. Second, same ratio but coarser grind so 22 seconds extraction. Nice flow first 12 seconds, rest not as nice... Both tasted very nice, really sweet and nice texture. No bitterness, no sourness, great balance. Very good tasting shots for this blend. Fines related, more with the finer grind, but still a lot of with the coarser one. No more fines with this one cup filter compared to the two cups one.



















With the coarser grind, the puck ended "hanging" from the shower... I think I can't grind coarser than this and have a decent flow.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I am honestly at a loss how such coarse 'fines' are making it past the filter basket, maybe it is a pressure thing.

There is one hard and fast rule to live by when it comes to coffee/espresso making.... "If it tastes good, dont worry about it"

If the fines aren't ruining your coffee experience, forget about it and enjoy the coffee.


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Dylan said:


> I am honestly at a loss how such coarse 'fines' are making it past the filter basket, maybe it is a pressure thing.
> 
> There is one hard and fast rule to live by when it comes to coffee/espresso making.... "If it tastes good, dont worry about it"
> 
> If the fines aren't ruining your coffee experience, forget about it and enjoy the coffee.


Yes... Basket is new, so no basket issue. No water out of the portafilter. No rests of ground coffee on spours before brewing. I can't understand where do they come from. I will lower the opv to see what happens, but I knew Unica owners brewing at 12 bars and not having this problem...

Coffee tastes good, all but that last sip! Not ruining my experience but really bothering me.

Regarding opv, I think I have to set 10bar on the machine reading to get about 9 brewing? With blind basket (and brewing) my machine reading is near 11.5 bar.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Yea i dont really see it being the pressure, but it can hurt to try.

The only other option is to try your full set up on someone elses machine. So take you basket, beans, grinder, and everything to a friends house and see if you get the same thing.

The only other thing I can think of (but it makes no sense) is that these fines are going up past the shower screen and over the top of the basket, but this should be very obvious as you would get a stream of coffee over the side and a clear indication there was coffee that had made its way down the side of the basket...


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

I have made this morning a little experiment after watching this youtube video:






Their advice is to have a flow capable to fill 30ml in 12 seconds. I have measured my machine flow and it's quite faster, a 50% faster than this. 45cl in 12 seconds. Then I have asked another Bezzera Unica to test the same. And he has the flow advised, 30ml in 12 seconds despite having the opv set at 12 bar. Maybe my pump is different and has bigger flow at same pressure. I wish this is causing that fines... Of course I will give a try.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Pump pressure is not the same as flow rate, so at zero pressure the OPV pressure wont aaffect the flow rate. Have you had the machine from new?


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Dylan said:


> Pump pressure is not the same as flow rate, have you had the machine from new?


Yes... Have tried to reduce the opv and flow rate didn'reduce as you say... I do not understand what are they exactly checking in the video if flow rate is not related with opv.

Yes, I had the machine from new. Bought it on December 2014. I though during first weeks fines would be caused by my inexperience. Then, I switched the stock basket for an IMS. Fines didn't disapeared but they reduced. Using the same coffee the problem was more or less controled - although they never disapeared as I've said- but trying another coffees or reducing recipe ratio it's a nuisance because of these coffee grounds...

I have set opv at 10. Still fines, so it seems not to be pressure related. Quite depressed, I feel I have tried everything I could. Everything but trying my grinder with another machine or viceversa, but this is not an easy task here.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

And have you observed the shit with a naked portafilter?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Also, did you try taking the shower screen off, clean it and also the gasket, and clean the group head with a wet towel to make sure there are no stray grinds? If you try this and pull a shot, do you see as many grinds in the cup?


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

pessutojr said:


> Also, did you try taking the shower screen off, clean it and also the gasket, and clean the group head with a wet towel to make sure there are no stray grinds? If you try this and pull a shot, do you see as many grinds in the cup?


Yes... Ultra clean, still fines. Backflushing wiggleing portafilter, removed shower and let it soak with pulycaff... Still fines. I can not understand.


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Dylan said:


> And have you observed the shit with a naked portafilter?


I had just one try. What I observed was my distribution is not ideal. I would need an snorkle and a black shirt to keep trying. Anyway, couldn't see any grounds migrating from group to cup, neither from filter walls to cup.


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Just looking throught this thread and the one thing, well two things come to mind.

If you rule out any grinds left on the ears or rim of the portafilter then:

1. Rim of the baskets damaged from knocking out?

2. You state new gasket and may be this is not either seating correctly (could be some crud above the gasket causing it to not sit level) or upside down? (some machines prefer the chamfer up or down if there is one)

point2 will probably be cheapest to check but require you to have a new group gasket ready as taking it out will most likely damage it. Cafelat silicone ones are more pliable than the std black rubber ones and a quick clean with a pallo brush every other shot rules out any grinds on the gasket.

Once 2 done if still occurring point 1 edge of basket ona known straight surface and shine a light to see if any dings.

Hope of help

John


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

johnealey said:


> Just looking throught this thread and the one thing, well two things come to mind.
> 
> If you rule out any grinds left on the ears or rim of the portafilter then:
> 
> ...


Thank you John,

Two cups basket is quite new, the one cup one not just quite, it's new. I will see if the rim is levelled. I haven't seen grounds where you said after brewing, where I use to found some particles -maybe 3 or 4- is inside the portafilter if I remove filter after brewing. The rest end on the bottom of my cup. So I think fines come through the filter holes...

I will remove the group gasket again as I have a new one I can use if I break it.

I'll try another coffee machine, but it is a low end one, a small minimoka... Other possibilitie... Drive for a couple of hours and try my grinder with another Bezzera Unica. Do not want to but...


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Dylan said:


> Pump pressure is not the same as flow rate, so at zero pressure the OPV pressure wont aaffect the flow rate. Have you had the machine from new?


I was quite surprised to find out I didn't have to grind finer to brew at 10 bar. Extraction time was even shorter than at 11.5. Should be this way? I will let the opv at 10 these days to see if anything changes.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

When at high pressure the water can compact the puck making the pour slower.

If you are able to see the extraction with the naked and no liquid is coming from anywhere other than the bottom of the basket then it has to be coming through the holes, however strange that seems.

It's worth using the naked and getting your distribution correct. You won't achieve coffee as good as possible without doing this.


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Dylan said:


> When at high pressure the water can compact the puck making the pour slower.
> 
> If you are able to see the extraction with the naked and no liquid is coming from anywhere other than the bottom of the basket then it has to be coming through the holes, however strange that seems.
> 
> It's worth using the naked and getting your distribution correct. You won't achieve coffee as good as possible without doing this.


Ok. Shoul I let the machine with the 12 bar factory setting?

I will work on the naked, sure. But my bad distribution shouldn't have anything to do with these fines, should it?

Sorry if my questions seem too obvious! Sorry as well for my english, but I think it's improving faster than my espresso making!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

tocateclas said:


> Ok. Shoul I let the machine with the 12 bar factory setting?
> 
> I will work on the naked, sure. But my bad distribution shouldn't have anything to do with these fines, should it?
> 
> Sorry if my questions seem too obvious! Sorry as well for my english, but I think it's improving faster than my espresso making!


The pressure setting is up to you, personally I would have it at 9/10bar.

I can't see how distribution would be causing your fines. But it's probably a more important issue to resolve.


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Dylan said:


> The pressure setting is up to you, personally I would have it at 9/10bar.
> 
> I can't see how distribution would be causing your fines. But it's probably a more important issue to resolve.


I can't see anything causing my fines, but here they are.... I wish it was grinder related, good excuse to upgrade and get rid of these grounds! I like my Mignon, my only concern is that it's really clumpsy and with some coffees I can't grind straight to the portafilter. If fines are a grinder problem, who knows? Nobody seems to point to the grinder, but coffee machine shouldn't be as complicated. Just water at certain pressure and temperature passing through the coffee... Can't see more cause than dirtyness and I keep everything quite clean...

If because of this problem I improve my distribution, I will find one nice thing on it!


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

I have removed shower and gasket, gasket is fine and elastic. I have cleaned with a towel the group before putting them back in place. I have cleaned shower, filters and portafilters with pulycaff, letting them soak overnight. I have set opv at 10. And fines are still there. After brewing, I have removed very carecully the portafilter to check there are no rests of coffee migrating to the cup. I have removed carefully the filter and have found out there are no grounds of coffee on the filter walls, just some grounds that have obviously passed through the filter holes.

I have tried different coffees and fines increase with the very dark roasted ones. Grinding coarser doesn't make any difference.

So I can think in anything but the grinder...

I agree bad distribution is more important, but holidays + kids don't get well with coffee experiments! I'll fight with the naked next year.


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Dylan said:


> The pressure setting is up to you, personally I would have it at 9/10bar.


9/10 bar on the machine gauge? I have no portafilter gauge to measure pressure there.

With less pressure I have some less fines. And I have observed that some of them have the size of those odd fines I use to find in any or almost any espresso, I think this is normal. Problem are a lot of smaller ones than make a path from the bottom of the cup to the rim when you drink the lasts sips. I can't think in other cause but grinder inconsistency.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

All grinders have fines, and the ones in that cup don't look so bad, plus you said you bought pre ground from the shop and you still got fines, so surely that eliminates the grinder.


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Yes, these cups don't look very bad, lowering pressure till 9 bar improved things and this is the Trinci's blend which produces less fines than all others I have tried. In fact, my concern with founds arrived after trying other coffees.

With preground coffee I still got fines, yes, but quite a different ones. I have tried again and there is just a kind of dust. I am sure this dust would dissolve in espresso while drinking it. What I did was to throw the espresso slowly to check the bottom of the cup.

So... I'm happy now and I appreciate very much your help! Lowering the opv and return to usual coffee did the trick. I will try when it is possible another grinder to see if there is any difference.

Thanks all again!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

That's good to hear. You should try a VST basket when you get a chance, it may reduce even what you have left now.


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Sure I'll do. Thanks Dylan.


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## tocateclas (Nov 29, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Are these fines coming in as soon as pressure hits the puck ( being puffed out ? )


Today I have made a double espresso in one cup using the two spouts portafilter, something I don't use to do. And I have seen some fines hitting the cup's wall in the very first drops. Portafilter was clean, that's for sure. I don't know if this was what you were asking. Before first drops appears, normally after 5 or 6 seconds, pressure gauge is at 4 bar. From the first drops till the end of the extraction, 9 bar.

Hausbrandt Gourmet, not a dark roast. 18 grams of ground coffee for 40 grams of espresso in 28 seconds at 96°. It tasted really good! Nice blend.


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