# Quality of Life Upgrade ~£2000



## Spooned (Aug 4, 2013)

Hello all,

For over 10 years I have owned, and been rather happy with, an unmodified Gaggia classic. It started producing pretty tasty shots once I understood temperature surfing. Moreover, I appreciate the relatively compact footprint in my (not huge) kitchen. During this time I have been through a few grinders and have ordered a Niche which should be arriving in November.

I don't drink a huge amount of coffee, probably 1 espresso based drink per day when working in the office but higher when working from home and at weekends.

A fortunate set of circumstances have left me with some money to invest into a new machine to go alongside the Niche. I would like to keep this machine for as long as possible (i.e. >= 10 years) as I don't think I'll have this kind of lump sum of cash again. Regardless of the machine I end up buying, I'll be investing in an Osmio or RO setup to feed it.

This will be a quality of life upgrade, i.e. I am hoping to work less hard to get good shots. I don't think that I will have the time, inclination or caffeine tolerance to "play" with different pressure profiles, extraction techniques etc.

I had originally decided the MaraX was sufficient. It's small size and simplicity are appealing and the brew priority mode seemed perfect for my use case. However, the cost of the wood trim, bottomless PF and flow control valve (for pre-infusion) brought the cost closer to the Bianca. Given the Bianca has dual boilers, a rotary pump, LCC, movable tank and better included accessories it seems worth the upfront extra for me. The only sacrifice seems to be the footprint. Great, I thought, Bianca it is!

However, while digging around for info on the Bianca, it was brought to my attention that it is often possible to find a Vesuvius for similar money (i.e. < £2000). I hadn't considered the V because it seemed well over budget. It seems like a fantastic machine that has been around for a while (and thus possible failure modes understood). I'm concerned because it literally just fits in the allocated space and seems like it would be a pain ergonomically:
- I would have to move it every time it needed water (perhaps this wouldn't be a problem if it had felt pads). 
- The steam wand would be against the wall and hence somewhat difficult to use.
- The cups would have to be stored somewhere else as I don't have much cupboard clearance.

Thus my current trilemma: What is the best long-term choice; MaraX, Bianca or V? Or perhaps something else?

I'll probably take a trip to BB to look at them in the flesh.

Other things I have considered:
- Other HX machines:
- MaraX seems like the current peak of HX performance.
- Lever machines: 
- The new machine will live under a cupboard and hence no room for the lever.
- Other DB machines: 
- The Minima is appealing but also no longer sold at BB.
- Profitech 700 and Synchronika look pretty nice but are quite a lot more than the Bianca. Both also are quite high and I'm not sure I could get my cups on the warmer.

What do you think?

Thanks for reading!


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Just to throw another machine in the the mix - Bezzera Duo

A couple of members have purchased one from us so hopefully someone can tell you what they think.

I have one on my workbench to 'test' but in reality I think it will be staying put! They are beautifully put together, dual boiler, rotary pump, touch display, boiler priority settings, dual PID, wooden accents, toggle steam and water valves, full stainless frame and body, tank or mains fed etc etc. The spec sheet is endless. Plus you get a free matching bottomless portafilter, a discount for forum members and it comes in firmly under budget.

Let me know if you have any questions.

David


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Spooned said:


> I don't think that I will have the time, inclination or caffeine tolerance to "play" with different pressure profiles, extraction techniques etc.


 Seems that you are kind of contradicting yourself as you shortlisted Bianca and Vesuvius 🙂



Spooned said:


> I'll probably take a trip to BB to look at them in the flesh


 Very wise.

Ultimately, you need to find something which looks good to you and doesn't become a burden to you. For instance, the E61 machines tend to take 40 minutes to be ready to brew. It will also require monthly dismantling the cam lever and lubricating it. Yes, granted, it will last you a while, until the weakest component fails (vacuum breaker, pump, probes... But you can source those, so it's ok).

My journey: Gaggia Classic -> Profitec 700 -> V60 -> La Pavoni -> Lelit Elizabeth.

Let me throw a few questions:

- Do you want to plan to have a coffee or would you leave the machine on all day? Would you rather have the machine off, turn it on, wait (15 minutes OR 40 minutes or 5 minutes)?

- Do you drink milk-based drinks?

- Does the machine need to be easy, simple, and which doesn't look intimidating? Maybe for other people in the household?

- Will you able to keep the machine clean, regularly? Backflusing, lubricating, dropping the shower screen, etc, etc?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

You've described the 5 very different machines. The first is a good compact HX design, the second is a dual boiler with flow profiling, the third a dual boiler with pressure profiling. You can add flow profiling to other machines with the bianca or profitec add on to go into an e61 group, you just need to make sure of compatibility.

The Minima is compatible with the bianca paddle and there is also a pressure and flow control mod coming from ACS for it in the future.

I would recommend a machine with flow and/or pressure profiling ability either as standard or through an add on. The Bianca is a very nice machine and if the Vesuvius is out of the question because of its size I'd go for that.

People seem to have the perception pressure and flow profiling makes things harder but the opposite is true.


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

One option to consider is the ECM slim, good quality compact machine with less fancy electronic controls than the Mara-x. More expensive though at ~£1,300 or so.

Will need some maintenance as it is an e61 but is compatible with the ECM/Profitec flow profiling kit as well if you wanted to extend in the future.

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/ecm-mechanika-v-slim.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzt_9wrD_6wIVxYjVCh2rSQ7lEAUYAiABEgKQc_D_BwE


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

What do i think?

A good grinder (check) with fresh beans and a reasonable coffee maker is probably going to get you high up on the slope of diminishing returns. One may argue that the Gaggia is reasonable enough, once one has mastered its quirks and inconsistencies.

So, will a new set up make demonstrably better espresso? Perhaps not, maybe the margins will be small enough.

So, what point a new set up then? Ease of use? Will a Hx machine or DB be easier to use than a Gaggia with their slow light ups and convoluted maintenance? Probably not.

But what to do with a hole burning in your pocket?

Buy something which the Gaggia should have been!

https://espresso.lelit.com/product/12

Easy to use, no faff. Great espresso.

*Disclaimer: Not sure if serious


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## Spooned (Aug 4, 2013)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Just to throw another machine in the the mix - Bezzera Duo
> 
> A couple of members have purchased one from us so hopefully someone can tell you what they think.


 Sounds like a lovely machine. I'll take a look, thanks for the recommendation!



MediumRoastSteam said:


> Seems that you are kind of contradicting yourself as you shortlisted Bianca and Vesuvius 🙂


 I agree with you here. My thought process is: which machine is likely to have the best longevity, both in terms of features and construction? The Bianca and V represent high quality dual boiler setups and seem suitably "end game" for me. The fact they both also feature mechanisms to further alter the extraction is a nice additional feature that I don't value as highly as others looking at these machines.



MediumRoastSteam said:


> Ultimately, you need to find something which looks good to you and doesn't become a burden to you.


 Couldn't agree more.



MediumRoastSteam said:


> - Do you want to plan to have a coffee or would you leave the machine on all day? Would you rather have the machine off, turn it on, wait (15 minutes OR 40 minutes or 5 minutes)?
> 
> - Do you drink milk-based drinks?
> 
> ...


 1) I won't leave the machine on during the week unless I am here. Ideally, the machine would have a built in timer. Otherwise I'll get a plug with a timer.

2) Currently not a lot but the desire to make them comes and goes. We several have great coffee shops in Cheltenham and I typically go to them for milk drinks.

3) Currently no need for a very simple user interface.

4) Yes, especially after watching Dave's E61 cleaning routine videos.

Out of interest, what make you change from your P700 to the Elizabeth?



Rob1 said:


> I would recommend a machine with flow and/or pressure profiling ability either as standard or through an add on. The Bianca is a very nice machine and if the Vesuvius is out of the question because of its size I'd go for that.
> 
> People seem to have the perception pressure and flow profiling makes things harder but the opposite is true.


 Thanks for the advice. Have you noticed much of a difference with the paddle vs without on the Minima?


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## ZiggyMarley (Jan 9, 2019)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Will you able to keep the machine clean, regularly? Backflusing, lubricating, dropping the shower screen, etc, etc?


 this is my first question to the OP - are you happy with regular maintenance of the E61 group head, dismantling and lubrication? I wasnt - so i take a look at the Lelit Elizabeth? I have just taken delivery so i'm a bit biased!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Spooned said:


> Thanks for the advice. Have you noticed much of a difference with the paddle vs without on the Minima?


 Yes, flow profiling makes a world of difference to any machine. Some beans do not benefit from it so much in which case you just set the paddle to an open position and leave it there.


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@Blue_Cafe - Unsure on the Victoria PL91T, looks to not do preinfusion the nice way the Elizabeth does and has a group venting approach.

I would skip it and get the dual boiler Elizabeth instead if you wanted a switch operated lower maintenance machine than the Bianca.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Northern_Monkey said:


> @Blue_Cafe - Unsure on the Victoria PL91T, looks to not do preinfusion the nice way the Elizabeth does and has a group venting approach.
> 
> I would skip it and get the dual boiler Elizabeth instead if you wanted a switch operated lower maintenance machine than the Bianca.


 I was just thinking about not having a DB if all you are doing is one Espresso a day.

Seems a bit of an extravagance for that lol.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Spooned said:


> Out of interest, what make you change from your P700 to the Elizabeth?


 I found that, for my usage, it was just too much. I hate having to "plan" to have a coffee. For instance, I used to have the machine on a timer first thing in the morning (that was ok) and then switch off. If I wanted another coffee - often out of the blue - I had to think ahead and turn the machine on again, and wait 45 minutes for the machine to heat up. It was just a pain. Don't get me wrong, it was a great machine, but for what I needed it wasn't the right thing. If you do however have a fixed routine, then it can work for you.

The E61 maintenance was also another factor - but not a decisive one.

So, with the Elizabeth... Life is simple again. I get up in the morning, I turn the machine on. I do a few things, wait 17 minutes and the machine is ready to brew! Same goes in the afternoon. It's great.

Also, the steam power on the Elizabeth is insane. It's far better than my old Profitec, but I do realise they have now upped their game and you can now set a 2bar pressure too.

So, overall, I like the low maintenance and simplicity of the Elizabeth, as well as some of the features it has, namely pre-infusion. 🙂

IF you don't have milk based drinks... It might not be a good idea to buy a dual boiler... or HX for that matter. The Lelit Victoria *WOULD* be a great choice, but Lelit messed up the pre-infusion routine. Such a shame.


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## Spooned (Aug 4, 2013)

Northern_Monkey said:


> One option to consider is the ECM slim.


 Thanks for the advice. It's a nice looking machine, I'll take a look.



Blue_Cafe said:


> What do i think?
> 
> A good grinder (check) with fresh beans and a reasonable coffee maker is probably going to get you high up on the slope of diminishing returns.


 Really interesting and I totally agree with you.

I hadn't looked at these non-E61 machines before but they are actually very appealing.



Rob1 said:


> Yes, flow profiling makes a world of difference to any machine. Some beans do not benefit from it so much in which case you just set the paddle to an open position and leave it there.


 Good to know. I'll go and have a bit more of a read. Thanks!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Spooned -

Now... One thing that you can solve with a rotary pump which can be easily adjusted, or an easily accessible expansion valve, or via a pressure profile machine is the ability to adjust the pressure to something like 6 bar.

I know some people really rave about it. When I had the Profitec, I experimented with that. It wasn't my thing back then at least 🙂

Another option... A Decent machine? Have you looked into those? I never seen or used one, but those who own it really enjoy it.


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## ZiggyMarley (Jan 9, 2019)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Another option... A Decent machine?


 i like the look of those. Not sure how much they are, but i guessed they cost way more than i was prepared to pay


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

One coffee a day, not really into milk drinks? ECM Puristika...


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Rob1 said:


> One coffee a day, not really into milk drinks? ECM Puristika...


 Which does not yet exist, apart from 3 prototype units...


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Which does not yet exist, apart from 3 prototype units...


 Op has had a classic for 10 years, so I assumed the upgrade wasn't urgent. Should only be a few months to wait for the Puristika.


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## Spooned (Aug 4, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Another option... A Decent machine? Have you looked into those?


 I have. I love the idea of owning one and think the form and function looks really great. However, I know that I wouldn't make use of the features that the price commands. When corona is over I would really like to attend a meetup to see one in action though!



Rob1 said:


> One coffee a day, not really into milk drinks? ECM Puristika...


 Oh my, that is one beautiful machine and I can really see that in my kitchen. Couldn't find much info though, I'll have a dig around.



Rob1 said:


> Op has had a classic for 10 years, so I assumed the upgrade wasn't urgent. Should only be a few months to wait for the Puristika.


 Spot on, I'm in no rush at all to buy. For the next two weeks I'll be at home so going to organise that trip to BB but other than that I'm not on a time limit.

And just to say thanks to everyone who has posted so far. Definitely glad I posted and there have been some great suggestions. Thanks again!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Rob1 said:


> Should only be a few months to wait for the Puristika.


 I didn't know that. That's good news!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I didn't know that. That's good news!


 Well it's a guess. A google indicates they're in production and inviting retailers to the factory for a rumoured Jan release. They were supposed to be releasing in the last quarter of this year but I think we can all understand why something might be delayed for a few months right now.


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## allikat (Jan 27, 2020)

I'd actually second the Lelit mentioned earlier. It's about the same size as a Classic, and the shot kindly made for me on it was excellent.

That said, the Bezzera is also a very tempting machine.


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## Aamz23 (Aug 20, 2018)

How long does the Bianca take to warm up?


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## Aamz23 (Aug 20, 2018)

Blue_Cafe said:


> What do i think?
> 
> A good grinder (check) with fresh beans and a reasonable coffee maker is probably going to get you high up on the slope of diminishing returns. One may argue that the Gaggia is reasonable enough, once one has mastered its quirks and inconsistencies.
> 
> ...


 So a Bianca or profitec 700 or a V etc will not make better coffee than a Gaggia??


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Aamz23 said:


> How long does the Bianca take to warm up?


 Wifi plug my V is set to come on when I want it on using the internal clock.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Aamz23 said:


> So a Bianca or profitec 700 or a V etc will not make better coffee than a Gaggia??


 That wasn't my point.

They most probably can, but just how much better, all things considered, is debatable.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Aamz23 said:


> So a Bianca or profitec 700 or a V etc will not make better coffee than a Gaggia??


 if the Gaggia has a PID and you're making one straight shot only, then the coffee might be not much worse than the other machines


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## Aamz23 (Aug 20, 2018)

Jony said:


> Wifi plug my V is set to come on when I want it on using the internal clock.


 Is that the same for the Bianca?

How much does a brand new V cost?


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Don't know. Ask someonewwith a Bianca


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@Aamz23 - I don't think the Bianca has an internal clock, there is a latching power switch though so it works really well with a smart plug but you need that for the scheduling.


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## olivier (Jan 4, 2016)

I can confirm what @Northern_Monkey just said. No in-built timer, but works a treat with a smart plug.


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

not much talk about the Vesuvius mentioned in the OP...no knowledge of it at all myself, but given that one is currently available for £1800 perhaps you should focus on finding out more about it if it really does interest you?


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## Max35111 (Oct 3, 2020)

Spooned said:


> Hello all,
> 
> For over 10 years I have owned, and been rather happy with, an unmodified Gaggia classic. It started producing pretty tasty shots once I understood temperature surfing. Moreover, I appreciate the relatively compact footprint in my (not huge) kitchen. During this time I have been through a few grinders and have ordered a Niche which should be arriving in November.
> 
> ...


 Is the BB showroom opened? Website says it isn't.

If opened, is it during weekends?

Thanks!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Max35111 said:


> Is the BB showroom opened? Website says it isn't.
> 
> If opened, is it during weekends?
> 
> Thanks!


 I think you can visit by appointment if you give them a ring. They aren't open at weekends.


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## Max35111 (Oct 3, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I think you can visit by appointment if you give them a ring. They aren't open at weekends.


 Thank you sir! Will probably end up there at some point! Need to see the Bianca and MaraX in the flesh


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Max35111 said:


> Thank you sir! Will probably end up there at some point! Need to see the Bianca and MaraX in the flesh


 That's a wise move for sure.


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## Inoxx (Aug 5, 2019)

Just a thought but but have you considered an acs minima?


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

I knew I should have stayed off this site!

This thread has me thinking now. I have been home based for the whole of lockdown, and having accepted a promotion into a new department of my company, even when covid is over, I'm likely to stay home based permanently now, or at most head into the office one or two days a week.

I rebuilt a Kitchenaid Artisan and I've been using that for the last several months, but recently went back onto my PIDed GC. Both have similar work flow, both steam 150ml for my flat whites easily though I'd give the edge to the GC for steam power due to the PID control. Both make a decent shot, both involve a lot of purging and clean up after to make sure boilers are properly refilled etc. Hubs gets up about 30 mins before me and switches machine on, so heat up time isn't really an issue and if it was I could use a wifi plug.

Usage is 3-4 flat whites for me a morning and steam the milk for a hot chocolate for the other half, who is also home based now.

The Lelit Elizabeth has been in my basket and just chickened out of at BB about 20 times since I read this thread for the first time. Based on not needing to fill up the boiler again after steaming manually, having enough steam to really texture milk properly, I'm really tempted.

In the opinion of the learned forum members who've gone before me, will this give me anything better in the cup/workflow or do I just want to throw some money at this hobby? Will my Mignon Specialita be a good enough grinder to show the machine off to advantage? I couldn't afford to upgrade both right now and honestly I like the Mignon for use and looks anyway. I've ruled out MaraX as I don't really like the aesthetic of the E61 group or the workflow of a traditional one, but with the controls on the MaraX have I been too hasty to write it off and it's £200 cheaper? Elizabeth would be top end of what I'd be looking to spend. I need someone to talk me down or into one or the other. Would it improve my coffee or do I just have some money burning a hole in my pocket and a desire for a shiny new thing? I've never had a brand new machine and I kind of feel like with the fact I'll be using it for several shots a day permanently now that I'm home based it'd be justifiable. I swore I wouldn't get into upgraditis!


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## L2en (Jun 10, 2018)

Tempest said:


> I knew I should have stayed off this site!
> 
> This thread has me thinking now. I have been home based for the whole of lockdown, and having accepted a promotion into a new department of my company, even when covid is over, I'm likely to stay home based permanently now, or at most head into the office one or two days a week.
> 
> ...


 Oh, I'm exactly on the same boat. Deciding between MaraX and Elizabeth, taking into consideration Brexit non agreement, otherwise I would upgrade next year, but now I'm unsure. Plus I love my Silvia still, without PID, so temperamental, but it is my first baby🙂 Sitting on the fence at the moment.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Go for it! Your grinder is fine. I have the Elizabeth and it's great!

You'll love it.

There's a site in Italy where it's €1,040 plus delivery of around €18, tracked by UPS. You could check them. Take a look at the Elizabeth thread, some folks there bought from them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Inspector (Feb 23, 2017)

I will likely order from la machina as it comes £200 cheaper and says full manufacturer warranty.

But if sth goes wrong is there a lelit UK that I can send machine to be repaired?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Inspector said:


> I will likely order from la machina as it comes £200 cheaper and says full manufacturer warranty. But if sth goes wrong is there a lelit UK that I can send machine to be repaired?


I'm not sure. But maybe Bella Barista could fix it for you (ask them?) if it does go wrong? Most likely, unless it's something really major, you can always email Lelit or the retailer and they can sort something out for you. It's the whole dilemma isn't it.... "IF", "in case", not "when".

Decisions...:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Inspector said:


> I will likely order from la machina as it comes £200 cheaper and says full manufacturer warranty.
> 
> But if sth goes wrong is there a lelit UK that I can send machine to be repaired?


 The warranty for the prosumer machines is with the retailer who sold you the unit (bought out warranties). So Bella Barista might repair it, if they have time, but they would charge you for the repair as normal. I appreciate it may be different with companies like Sage who use appointed repair agents...although this can be a bit of a double-edged sword.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> The warranty for the prosumer machines is with the retailer who sold you the unit (bought out warranties). So Bella Barista might repair it, if they have time, but they would charge you for the repair as normal. I appreciate it may be different with companies like Sage who use appointed repair agents...although this can be a bit of a double-edged sword.


 Honestly, BB gave me stellar service with the purchase of my Mignon, they're easy to reach if you need anything, they will fix/replace and don't they do a better than average transferable warranty? All of that sounds like I'd rather have a UK company I can work with if anything goes wrong I think than be trying to ship something back to Europe at my cost and possibly risk. I think that peace of mind would be worth the £200 to me, though I'm not under any pressure and I might spend a bit more time doing a bit more research.

I'm still just really torn between the MaraX and the Elizabeth but I just think the Elizabeth suits what I'm used to better. ARGH!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Tempest said:


> Honestly, BB gave me stellar service with the purchase of my Mignon, they're easy to reach if you need anything, they will fix/replace and don't they do a better than average transferable warranty? All of that sounds like I'd rather have a UK company I can work with if anything goes wrong I think than be trying to ship something back to Europe at my cost and possibly risk. I think that peace of mind would be worth the £200 to me, though I'm not under any pressure and I might spend a bit more time doing a bit more research.
> 
> I'm still just really torn between the MaraX and the Elizabeth but I just think the Elizabeth suits what I'm used to better. ARGH!


 Yes. That's the thing. I've been a BB client for a while now, and they are simply put... great! So, if it was me, I'd know where to go, but I do also understand that sometimes it's not as simple as that, and £200 in this case (i.e.: 20% of the value of the machine) may mean a deal break to some, and some might just take the risk.

With regards to the MaraX vs Elizabeth. That was my torment at the start. They are both great machines, and both have advantages and disadvantages. For me, the Elizabeth wins because I value a few things: Easy maintenance (I can backflush the machine whenever I fancy, without having to worry about dismantling the group), Fast heat-up time (ready from cold in 17 minutes), ability to pre-infuse and its rather compact form.

I already discussed this here... Someone was in a similar dilemma earlier in the month 🙂

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55032-if-i-up-my-budget-to-%C2%A31000-what-should-i-consider-beyond-lelit-marax/?do=embed&comment=781571&embedComment=781571&embedDo=findComment


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> With regards to the MaraX vs Elizabeth. That was my torment at the start. They are both great machines, and both have advantages and disadvantages. For me, the Elizabeth wins because I value two things: Easy maintenance (I can backflush the machine whenever I fancy, without having to worry about dismantling the group), Fast heat-up time (ready from cold in 17 minutes), ability to pre-infuse and its rather compact form.


 I think we're in the easy maintenance part together. I am also not a fan of the E61 group or the style of knobs on MaraX. If it really suited my needs better I'd get over that but as I think the Elizabeth does, I guess that's the answer.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

Anyone gone for bottomless pf or upgraded basket with this, or just run with the stock out of the box items?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Tempest said:


> Anyone gone for bottomless pf or upgraded basket with this, or just run with the stock out of the box items?


 I have the bottomless and upgrade baskets (VST 18g). Personally, I'd recommend you to run "stock" and upgrade as you go along. I personally like the idea of a bottomless porfafilter because it's very easy to clean and keep it clean.

Just make sure you have a tamper, as one is not provided with the machine, which is a shame really. A 58.4mm will fit VST, IMS and the Lelit baskets nicely. But if you already have a 58mm one, just use that and upgrade later.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I have the bottomless and upgrade baskets (VST 18g). Personally, I'd recommend you to run "stock" and upgrade as you go along. I personally like the idea of a bottomless porfafilter because it's very easy to clean and keep it clean.
> 
> Just make sure you have a tamper, as one is not provided with the machine, which is a shame really. A 58.4mm will fit VST, IMS and the Lelit baskets nicely. But if you already have a 58mm one, just use that and upgrade later.


 I have a bottomless for the Gaggia and I never use a standard so I'll miss it pretty quick.

I have a 58.5 Torr Goldfinger I picked up second hand from a lovely member of this forum so I think I'm good there. Well, I dithered too long so I doubt it will be here tomorrow but Thursday should be the day. I figure I make enough coffees these days that it should be as easy an experience as I want it to be and I'm sort of looking forward to playing around with pre-infusion lol. I'll bet I have a bottomless pf by sometime next week. 🤣. I'd also bet I'll be hearing 'when are you selling that one' from the other half by then as well.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Tempest said:


> I have a bottomless for the Gaggia and I never use a standard so I'll miss it pretty quick.
> 
> I have a 58.5 Torr Goldfinger I picked up second hand from a lovely member of this forum so I think I'm good there. Well, I dithered too long so I doubt it will be here tomorrow but Thursday should be the day. I figure I make enough coffees these days that it should be as easy an experience as I want it to be and I'm sort of looking forward to playing around with pre-infusion lol. I'll bet I have a bottomless pf by sometime next week. 🤣. I'd also bet I'll be hearing 'when are you selling that one' from the other half by then as well.


 Oh cool! Well then, treat yourself to a nice bottomless PF! The Rocket ones (sold by Bella Barista) fits the Elizabeth nicely, but they also sell Lelit ones, with a wooden handle I believe. You might as well add a VST basket for good measure and then you are done! Save on the postage!


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Oh cool! Well then, treat yourself to a nice bottomless PF! The Rocket ones (sold by Bella Barista) fits the Elizabeth nicely, but they also sell Lelit ones, with a wooden handle I believe. You might as well add a VST basket for good measure and then you are done! Save on the postage!


 The BB ones all say they're for E61 group which is the only reason why one didn't fall into the basket with the machine. Is it the same one for the Elizabeth?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Tempest said:


> The BB ones all say they're for E61 group which is the only reason why one didn't fall into the basket with the machine. Is it the same one for the Elizabeth?


 Yes. The Elizabeth uses the same PF as an E61 machine, as well as group baskets. I have tested the Rocket and the ECM ones, and they all do fit. Presumably the Lelit one fits too.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yes. The Elizabeth uses the same PF as an E61 machine, as well as group baskets. I have tested the Rocket and the ECM ones, and they all do fit. Presumably the Lelit one fits too.


 The only Lelit one in stock has a wood handle which isn't really my bag. I might be the minority but I'd rather a black one. I'll have another look, I bet I could ring them and add both on lol.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Tempest said:


> The only Lelit one in stock has a wood handle which isn't really my bag. I might be the minority but I'd rather a black one. I'll have another look, I bet I could ring them and add both on lol.


 This one "should" fit:

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/naked-bottomless-portafilter-for-e61-group-heads.html

But yes, best to ring them up and ask them to confirm for you. I highly recommend the Rocket one, great value for the money!

Someone on the MaraX thread bought this one (it will fit, and it's Lelit!)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/LELIT58-Bottomless-Filterholder-Stainless-Satin-Finish/dp/B082BPRJFP


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> This one "should" fit:
> 
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/naked-bottomless-portafilter-for-e61-group-heads.html
> 
> ...


 Ok so I bought the Amazon one haha. It'll be here before the coffee machine. Does ridged or ridgeless matter or is it just a personal preference? BB only have VTS in 18G ridged.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Tempest said:


> Ok so I bought the Amazon one haha. It'll be here before the coffee machine. Does ridged or ridgeless matter or is it just a personal preference? BB only have VTS in 18G ridged.


 The Ridgeless are better for home use, because you can pop in/out easily. On the ridged ones, the spring will catch on the ridge, and the basket will stay very firmly on the PF at all times. For example, stock baskets are often ridged, so when you into the PF they "click".


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I personally find ridged baskets an unnecessary PITA. They're fine, but it's just a ball ache getting them out of the PF without reaching for a knife or risking a thumbnail. Depends on how tight mind you. My ridgeless baskets stay in place when knocking out thanks to the spring tension in the PF itself, but just push out from underneath (naked) or pull out easily enough (spouted PF)

If someone has a ridged basket they could potentially weaken or remove the spring clip to make removal easier, but if buying, I choose ridgeless.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Tempest - Here: https://shop.squaremilecoffee.com/products/ridgeless-vst-basket

Might as well get a bag of Redbrick for a treat if it means free postage 🙂


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @Tempest - Here: https://shop.squaremilecoffee.com/products/ridgeless-vst-basket
> 
> Might as well get a bag of Redbrick for a treat if it means free postage 🙂


 You love spending other people's money and apparently I love letting you 😄😂🤣


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

Sold out at Square Mile!


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

Everyone is out of stock of the VTS ridgeless. Guess I'll have to make due with the standard one for now.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

VSTv are also a bit fernickety with regard to basket prep. The stock baskets might make a very slightly different tasting drink (due to VST coping with finer grind and more even extractions) but they're less prone to spritzing than VST which can be a bit unforgiving. Might be worth getting to know your stock baskets so you can see the difference when you go VST.

Rocket R58, Ceado E37S, VST 18g, Aeropress, Aergrind, Torr Goldfinger flat and convex.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

I do use a little stirring device I made up on each basket so I'm doing all I can for good prep, but I'll get to know the new machine for a bit and keep an eye out for stock to come back in before I jump. I just love watching bottomless shots pour, I know I'll miss my bottomless pf too much to go without haha.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Tempest said:


> I do use a little stirring device I made up on each basket so I'm doing all I can for good prep, but I'll get to know the new machine for a bit and keep an eye out for stock to come back in before I jump. I just love watching bottomless shots pour, I know I'll miss my bottomless pf too much to go without haha.


 Just checking... But I take you are familiar with this thread:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/53045-new-upgraded-lelit-on-the-block-elizabeth/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=755911&embedComment=755911&embedDo=findComment#comment-755911

And with @DavecUK in depth review? (in the first post)?


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

@MediumRoastSteam - I've read both a few times through but now I'm worrying why you're asking lol.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Tempest said:


> @MediumRoastSteam - I've read both a few times through but now I'm worrying why you're asking lol.


 Nothing to worry about! Just making sure you did, as there's a lot of useful info there when you get your machine 👍


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

Shipping confirmation has come through, should be with me tomorrow. Looking forward to playing with pre-infusion! Wondering if this is the machine that helps me get an espresso shot I enjoy straight. I'm down to tiny flat whites as it is but i could drink even more if they had no milk at all 😄.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Tempest said:


> Shipping confirmation has come through, should be with me tomorrow. Looking forward to playing with pre-infusion! Wondering if this is the machine that helps me get an espresso shot I enjoy straight. I'm down to tiny flat whites as it is but i could drink even more if they had no milk at all 😄.


 Excellent! Read that Review by Dave Corbey and make sure you set the advanced parameters, specially around pre-infusion as per his suggestions.

I'm currently drinking an Ethiopian Danisa, lightly roasted, and a 2-bar preinfusion of 11 seconds, total time 42 seconds, 18g in, 36g out makes it a wonderful espresso. So smooth.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Excellent! Read that Review by Dave Corbey and make sure you set the advanced parameters, specially around pre-infusion as per his suggestions.


 I expect Dave and his review will be joining me in my Kitchen via my Surface as I unbox and set up 😂. up a quarter of my available cupboard space haha.

I've got to nip into town and hit North Star this afternoon on my half day from work. I've been on their Guatemalan for the last two weeks but might try something new to hold me until my dog and hat order arrives.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

A little light afternoon reading lol. Good thing we're in and honest people as FedEx just abandoned on the doorstep and legged it. Was driving off before I had the key in the front door Hermes or Yodel style plus their tracking doesn't update beyond at the Leeds depot. But she's well packed by BB and in the house. Can't set it up until I've been to the store as I'll likely run this one on ashbeck but I didn't plan ahead very well. But it's here!


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## allyburns (Sep 27, 2020)

@TempestWelcome to club Elizabeth 🍾

I got mine on the 12th, loving it so far, still have lots of accessories to get 🤑

I'm using a blade grinder and a sieve until my Niche arrives in December. I don't mind though, getting used to the workflow and the NZ experience will be like Christmas, what a mess I am making at the moment!







View attachment 47109


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

@allyburns that's some dedication! I had my grinder ready to go as I've had my GC nearly 2 years. I'm down to fill the hopper on my Mignon and happy with it's performance so I'll stick with it for now. Loving the machine though, finding new flavours in beans I'd not fully discovered with my gc. Happy to join the Elizabeth club. Didn't threaten the other half with bodily harm when he asked for a second hot chocolate so it must be going well haha. Going to need to buy some beans by the kilo though with the increased consumption.


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## Spooned (Aug 4, 2013)

Hello again!

The Elizabeth wasn't on my radar at all going in and after reading through this thread a few times it seems as though it would be the machine for me.

However, several posts in this questioned the value of an upgrade, especially given how infrequently I have milk drinks. As such, I've decided to wait until either the death of my Classic or a big change in circumstance. Since my Niche arrived, I've stripped down the Classic, serviced the boiler and changed the gaskets and O rings, changed the OPV and added a @MrShades PID kit. I doubt I would be happier that if I had purchased a new machine.

So, thanks again to everyone who posted with comments and advice. I really appreciate it.

Hope you all have a lovely weekend 

P.S. Glad that this thread is generating discussion and helping others.

P.P.S. The Puristika is gorgeous.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Spooned said:


> Hello again!
> 
> The Elizabeth wasn't on my radar at all going in and after reading through this thread a few times it seems as though it would be the machine for me.
> 
> ...


 A very wise and sensible choice! Enjoy your journey!


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## allyburns (Sep 27, 2020)

Spooned said:


> Hello again!
> 
> The Elizabeth wasn't on my radar at all going in and after reading through this thread a few times it seems as though it would be the machine for me.
> 
> ...


 Totally agree! It can be satisfying feeling when you realise you *don't* need something, and can really appreciate what you already have, I like to practice gratitude every day and appreciate what I have. Sounds like your machine got a great service and upgrade! We all have different needs, and my journey was a different one, going from a terrible machine to one that will serve me for many years with the right care.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Tempest said:


> You love spending other people's money and apparently I love letting you 😄😂🤣





Tempest said:


> Everyone is out of stock of the VTS ridgeless. Guess I'll have to make due with the standard one for now.


 I'm back... ready to spend more of your money! 😂😂😂😂

Back in stock at Bella Barista:

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/vst-18g-ridgeless-precision-porta-filter-basket-e61.html

👍


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I'm back... ready to spend more of your money! 😂😂😂😂
> 
> Back in stock at Bella Barista:
> 
> ...


 Strangely I'd been waiting for the Mignon matt to come back in stock and it finally did. I didn't want to pay shipping twice. I think both will arrive tomorrow 😂😂. I'm eyeing up a Lelit knock box - I don't have one so it's not just because it's Lelit haha. After that I'm well and truly done.


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## woodymogs (Nov 5, 2020)

Tempest said:


> 😂😂 I'm eyeing up a Lelit knock box - I don't have one so it's not just because it's Lelit haha. After that I'm well and truly done.


 Hi, I'm waiting for delivery of an Elizabeth so using the time to watch @DavecUK videos and picking up some accessories  Did you get a Lelit knock box and, if so, which one? I need one but don't know whether to get the small round type of the larger drawer...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Don't forget the 2 additional sway documents referenced in the review (LCC settings and maintenance tips), also very smartphone friendly.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

woodymogs said:


> Hi, I'm waiting for delivery of an Elizabeth so using the time to watch @DavecUK videos and picking up some accessories  Did you get a Lelit knock box and, if so, which one? I need one but don't know whether to get the small round type of the larger drawer...


 I sure did. https://www.coffeefriend.co.uk/p/knock-box-lelit/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAhs79BRD0ARIsAC6XpaXuTyhrCHeX49iseok5LvT3KR_YTd5bPv_IKHTlcHQsZNxObp31NKgaAgoREALw_wcB

The drawer seems overkill for my space and usage. I also have the world's smallest kitchen (until February) and the round one suited the space nicely.


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## woodymogs (Nov 5, 2020)

Tempest said:


> I sure did. https://www.coffeefriend.co.uk/p/knock-box-lelit/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAhs79BRD0ARIsAC6XpaXuTyhrCHeX49iseok5LvT3KR_YTd5bPv_IKHTlcHQsZNxObp31NKgaAgoREALw_wcB
> 
> The drawer seems overkill for my space and usage. I also have the world's smallest kitchen (until February) and the round one suited the space nicely.
> 
> View attachment 48246


 Looks great, can't wait for mine to arrive! The drawer does seem quite big, not quite sure why so I think I'll settle for the same as you  Is that a Specialita grinder? I'm spending far too much time trying to decide what grinder to get - every time I *think* I've made up my mind I go off and do hours more 'research'


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

woodymogs said:


> Looks great, can't wait for mine to arrive! The drawer does seem quite big, not quite sure why so I think I'll settle for the same as you  Is that a Specialita grinder? I'm spending far too much time trying to decide what grinder to get - every time I *think* I've made up my mind I go off and do hours more 'research'


 It is a Specialita. I basically wanted good results with minimum expenditure at the time and I mean this kitchen is tiny so a commercial size grinder was out. I'm also not interested in single dosing or waiting around months when I want something so niche was a nonstarter. I've been happy with the Specialita. This kitchen had many red appliances. The new one will be black and stainless but I tell myself my grinder is like a Ferrari, its always classic in red lol.


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