# L1 price increase



## holdtheonions

FYI, unfortunately site now says 1900


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## coffeechap

I suppose that all depends on what you are going to get for your money really


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## Mrboots2u

As we roll into 2017 I don't think londinium will be alone in having to look st their prices


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## 4085

Mrboots2u said:


> As we roll into 2017 I don't think londinium will be alone in having to look st their prices


agree if you are importing, but Londinium sell globally.....


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## Mrboots2u

Not all parts are manufactured in the Uk though are they.

I couldn't give a willies to be honest was just pointing out that , with inflation potentially creeping next year , coffee stuff and other stuff wont be immune to prices increases.


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## coffeechap

That is brexit for you!!! (Bugger did I mention the b word)


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## The Systemic Kid

Shh, or it's the naughty corner for you.


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## Glenn

In reality they are one of the last suppliers to raise their prices, having held them for some time against increases.


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## 4085

factor in the currency assist they are getting and thats a canny hike though.......i bet the UK sales represent a small part of the overall sales picture


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## JackBlackmore

looks like I managed to snag mine just in time!


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## Xpenno

I work in IT and we've been getting warnings about some serious price hikes in 2017 due to brexit. We've already had a bunch this year. Wouldn't surprise me if everyone feels it in 2017 as it can't just be affecting IT.


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## Phil104

Price rises? What concerns me most at the moment is whether or not the LI will survive a nuclear attack. I rather think it might whereas I&#8230;.


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## Rhys

I don't know what is happening to the economy tbh. Last news was we are ok and improving, and the US was improving as well (probably due to Trump promising to bring back jobs to Americans?)

Anyway, I digress from the topic...

On a side note, Slayer have reduced their one group by $500 over xmas in the USA.... $7999 is still a lot (..though it's £7895 from Has Bean in the UK) That works out at just short of £30 a day to pull one espresso a day for a year (plus the cost of the coffee, electric to run it and water etc.) Starts to sound cheaper if you pull 4 or more a day for a year


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## lespresso

yes, we've had to increase the price but we've added a few christmas goodies to ease the pain - https://londiniumespresso.com/blog

merry xmas!

reiss.


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## DavecUK

Xpenno said:


> I work in IT and we've been getting warnings about some serious price hikes in 2017 due to brexit. We've already had a bunch this year. Wouldn't surprise me if everyone feels it in 2017 as it can't just be affecting IT.


We have been one of the most profitable markets in the world for a long time...When I travelled extensively, prices were always higher in the UK than most places and I used to think, whoa, that's exactly the same product, why is it so much cheaper in this country. In terms of our weak pound (don't blame brexit, it was overvalued for a long time) and price rises, believe it or not there is still a lot of room for manoeuvre in goods from far off places e.g. China, Taiwan, India etc..even cars have never been cheaper (relative terms).

Certain goods, I guess those produced using parts from Europe might well see some small increases, but I think the Brexit doomsayers are not right.....even if they were, you have to think, so Europe has made us a country that couldn't survive without it...not a great advert is it. Best we learn to walk again, while we still can.


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## Xpenno

DavecUK said:


> We have been one of the most profitable markets in the world for a long time...When I travelled extensively, prices were always higher in the UK than most places and I used to think, whoa, that's exactly the same product, why is it so much cheaper in this country. In terms of our weak pound (don't blame brexit, it was overvalued for a long time) and price rises, believe it or not there is still a lot of room for manoeuvre in goods from far off places e.g. China, Taiwan, India etc..even cars have never been cheaper (relative terms).
> 
> Certain goods, I guess those produced using parts from Europe might well see some small increases, but I think the Brexit doomsayers are not right.....even if they were, you have to think, so Europe has made us a country that couldn't survive without it...not a great advert is it. Best we learn to walk again, while we still can.


I wasn't arguing against any of the real reasons behind any of this, I try and keep it light hearted as it's a coffee forum. However, brexit is the reason corporations in my industry are using to justify a big price hike in the new year of anywhere between 5% and 15% depending on the company. Whether legitimately or merely used as an excuse for large corporation to make even more money then brexit will be one of the reasons why stuff costs more in 2017.


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## Thecatlinux

It's a official a New lever on the horizon then, who's going for the upgrade then .?

Great deal for the Americans due to the exchange rate .


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## cold war kid

Is there a price rise in the offing across EU countries?

I can fully understand a price rise in the UK as parts sourced within the EU become more expensive to import but as you suggest there's a gain to be made when shipping out the other way though.

As Glenn says though, the price has been held for a long time and inevitably all things go up in the long run.


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## DavecUK

Xpenno said:


> I wasn't arguing against any of the real reasons behind any of this, I try and keep it light hearted as it's a coffee forum. However, brexit is the reason corporations in my industry are using to justify a big price hike in the new year of anywhere between 5% and 15% depending on the company. Whether legitimately or merely used as an excuse for large corporation to make even more money then brexit will be one of the reasons why stuff costs more in 2017.


On this we both agree 100%. The faux argument by Tesco against it's supplier, just another case of brilliant marketing. We are, unfortunately, a nation with a large % of individuals willing to dig deep when purchasing what they think they want. Happy to borrow what they cannot afford, which keeps prices high.


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## arellim

Thecatlinux said:


> It's a official a New lever on the horizon then, who's going for the upgrade then .?
> 
> Great deal for the Americans due to the exchange rate .


I might be tempted, however if plumbing in my L1 the rotary pump upgrade becomes a little negligible. That, together with the in-line pressure modification from another thread makes it even less attractive.

That said, does this increase the value of current L1 owners machines or decrease it?! :-S


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## Glenn

I don't think it will decrease it at all.


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## holdtheonions

To me then it is a fair increase and I wouldn't actually even call it an increase with the added features. Whether it decreases the value of used machines, I'm guessing it depends on how many people think the upgraded config is worth the extra dough. There will always be some people happy to get the old version at better price. Not that I know anything about these things, but to me it would make sense to sell both models for a while and only lose the vibe pump version if no one is buying it or when the new budget lever comes out. Having used the vibe pump version, IMO for most people rotary will be much better and you should be glad. The pump noise on the previous model is horrid and 3 bar preinfusion is straight up better IMHO. Unless 1650 was a stretch before, then prolly not too happy. Unless you just bought old model and didn't know they were working on rotary model and now not too happy you just bought old model. Unless...no that's all got ;-)


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## Thecatlinux

arellim said:


> I might be tempted, however if plumbing in my L1 the rotary pump upgrade becomes a little negligible. That, together with the in-line pressure modification from another thread makes it even less attractive.
> 
> That said, does this increase the value of current L1 owners machines or decrease it?! :-S


I don't think the secondhand price will decrease unless there is a mass exudus , personally I am so happy with mine I can't see me taking the plunge , the extra I would have to pay after selling I would rather buy another grinder .


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## johnealey

or lots of beans









Would not the rotary pump be available as a retrofit should a need to replace exist? apart from the comment ref the thermosiphon could this then not be an easy upgrade if not plumbing in ?

Random thoughts having read the blog so may be well off

John


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## Thecatlinux

I would be interested in modding to a rotary pump but I don't think it will fit as from what I can assertain the boilers orientation has changed


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## Dylan

DavecUK said:


> (don't blame brexit, it was overvalued for a long time)


You really do come out with some interesting arguments Dave.


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## 4085

I had not realised the price increase was to cover what is effectively a new machine. This sounds like a domestic version of an L1P, rather than just a price hike


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## MediumRoastSteam

dfk41 said:


> I had not realised the price increase was to cover what is effectively a new machine. This sounds like a domestic version of an L1P, rather than just a price hike


That's exactly my understanding. They renamed the L1-P to L1 and created a new LR (old L1 with rotary pump instead of piston pump).


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## coffeechap

arellim said:


> I might be tempted, however if plumbing in my L1 the rotary pump upgrade becomes a little negligible. That, together with the in-line pressure modification from another thread makes it even less attractive.
> 
> That said, does this increase the value of current L1 owners machines or decrease it?! :-S


You might think but the new l1r will be a completely different animal, if you like lighter roasts then this will stun you in the cup


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## fluffles

coffeechap said:


> You might think but the new l1r will be a completely different animal, if you like lighter roasts then this will stun you in the cup


I don't really understand the technicalities, can you explain why you expect this to be the case?


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## Glenn

This blog post from Londinium Espresso best explains it


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## Split Shot

fluffles said:


> I don't really understand the technicalities, can you explain why you expect this to be the case?


I have an L1-P and tend towards lighter roasts. I find the combination of 3 bar PI and having 60ml shot volume (I never use it all, but it means I never feel constrained) gives me loads of options for up-dosing, fine grinds and high brew ratios, if I want them.

It sounds like the LR would give you this.

Having got used to them, I can't imagine not having these performance criteria now.


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## michaelg

Don't suppose there's any chance of a raffle of one of the first Londinium R's, Reiss @lespresso ?


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## steveholt

Q: how does the new L-R activate the rotary pump to fill the group head? Is it similar (but lower pressure) to what the strega does??


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## Glenn

Extremely unlikely sadly @michaelg

These will sell like hotcakes


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## michaelg

Glenn said:


> Extremely unlikely sadly @michaelg
> 
> These will sell like hotcakes


If you don't ask, you don't get


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## glevum

This is what i have been waiting for. The vib' always put me off pulling the trigger


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## coffeechap

Glenn said:


> Extremely unlikely sadly @michaelg
> 
> These will sell like hotcakes


Never say never


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## mathof

I don't know if I would find a detectable taste difference with the LR, given my brew parameters. I use mainly medium-roasted American single origins, 14.5g in the basket 29/31g out, in about 30" plus 10" pre-infusion.

Matt


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## holdtheonions

steveholt said:


> Q: how does the new L-R activate the rotary pump to fill the group head? Is it similar (but lower pressure) to what the strega does??


https://londiniumespresso.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=894#12420

Stega is a toy, Londinium R is not a toy...dang it. Dang it to heck.

;-)


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## Split Shot

mathof said:


> I don't know if I would find a detectable taste difference with the LR, given my brew parameters. I use mainly medium-roasted American single origins, 14.5g in the basket 29/31g out, in about 30" plus 10" pre-infusion.
> 
> Matt


Sounds perfectly suited to an L1.

I have a soft spot for light roasted African coffee, and this is where I feel happy to have the (perhaps little) extra that an L1-P or LR may offer.


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## 4085

I thought traditional Italian lever machines were designed for the darker roast, so this truly is a turn up to the books. Reiss used to roast such lovely darker type stuff....his roasting has changed, his machines have changed.....what next!


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## The Systemic Kid

Don't think it's a case of levers being designed for darker roast - more a case that was the roast profile of beans used for Italian espresso which included a hefty dose of Robusta for added caffeine kick. Levers, by design, produce a gentle extraction with pressure declining during the extraction. Guess you could argue that the declining pressure helped reduce extraction of bitter notes released later into the extraction and this being more of an issue with darker roasts.

The key to getting the best out of any machine be it lever or pump is the grinder. Big flat burrs 80mm upwards get the best out of lighter roasts partnered with a lever.


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## 4515

Cant see me upgrading to the new machine. It would be great to replace the vibe pump but this doenst sound like its an option. If a rotary pump comes along that can be retro fitted then I would buy it without hesitation.


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## Mrboots2u

A machine doesn't know what kind of coffee it's extracting . Key is decent grinder , and understanding you coffee to water ratio , and how it impacts .

One draw back can sometimes be the amount of available water to put through a puck on a lever , they were designed for more predominantly 7-14g doses .

Agree that 9-12 bar was designed to make coffee of a different roast and make up than a lot of today's coffee .

Not sure declining pressure does much for extraction softness ( perhaps declining temp impacts more )


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## DavecUK

Originally Posted by *DavecUK*   

(don't blame brexit, it was overvalued for a long time)



Dylan said:


> You really do come out with some interesting arguments Dave.


I take it from that comment, you don't agree, which is rather an odd view?

Our decline in manufacturing, exports, lack of commodities, massively increasing house prices, personal indebtedness and increasing population, has an effect. The only way we have maintained our standard of living is because of currency over-valuation and debt. The UK is in decline, unless people wake up and do something about it, we will face more serious problems in the future. Europe has happily held our arm to support us as we hobble down the route to a 3rd world country.


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## Yes Row

Our decline in manufacturing, exports, lack of commodities, massively increasing house prices, personal indebtedness and increasing population, has an effect. The only way we have maintained our standard of living is because of currency over-valuation and debt. The UK is in decline, unless people wake up and do something about it, we will face more serious problems in the future. Europe has happily held our arm to support us as we hobble down the route to a 3rd world country.

Happy Christmas!


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## Mrboots2u

FFS - this is not a politics forum


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## Glenn

Please keep this on topic.


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## Tewdric

I wonder what the warm up time will be for the R?


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## Split Shot

Tewdric said:


> I wonder what the warm up time will be for the R?


Reiss has mentioned that on the Londinium's website - an hour, same as the 1(P), 2 and 3.

Not surprising as the design has converged.


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## coffeechap

You can get them up to temp quicker though


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## Split Shot

coffeechap said:


> You can get them up to temp quicker though


I'd personally agree with that. Based on my experience, I don't entirely hold with the opinion you cannot flush an L1(P) to accelerate getting it up to temp - I think Reiss is probably erring on the side of giving very simple 'cast iron' advice. I find a towel clipped around the group head and a slightly different protocol with more, but smaller flushes (so a bit more effort maybe), does the trick for me. I'd estimate that with a reasonable effort

I can't see the L1R being much different in practice if it too is an HX?


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## coffeechap

I agree, small flushes allowing hx recovery can bring temp up quicker.


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## grumpydaddy

Anyone got a pic of the "R" pump?


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## NickR

This is good and bad news. Pulling shots on the L1P on the lever day confirmed my suspitions that the L1 was not using the group to nearly its full potential. To my mind the shots from the L1P are in a different league to those produced by an L1. Not only in terms of volume but viscosity and flavour too, leading to a far more authentic espresso. I wanted one badly, but its big and expensive. The old L1 remains a good machine but I believe the Londinium R will be a class leader by a country mile, and it retains all the charm of the original. Its a pity that it was not designed like this in the first place. However, I for one will definately upgrade when I can afford it. Surely this will but the "forever" machine.


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## johnealey

NickR said:


> ...Surely this will but the "forever" machine.


Until you feel the need to have two levers....







( I swear, levers are the road to ruination)

Surely the R will have a smaller boiler than the L1(P) thus be quicker to heat up than an hour, granted may not ever be as fast as an existing L1. The L2 is up to temp in an hour and that's with a 14L boiler (accepting some residual heat will remain) so struggling as to why a much smaller boiler would take as long.

Will be interesting to see how it behaves when out in the wild.

John


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## coffeechap

grumpydaddy said:


> Anyone got a pic of the "R" pump?


Yep


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## Thecatlinux

A rotary pump would be a nice upgrade option , although my vibe pump doesn't seem that bad on a good day


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## coffeechap

johnealey said:


> Until you feel the need to have two levers....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ( I swear, levers are the road to ruination)
> 
> Surely the R will have a smaller boiler than the L1(P) thus be quicker to heat up than an hour, granted may not ever be as fast as an existing L1. The L2 is up to temp in an hour and that's with a 14L boiler (accepting some residual heat will remain) so struggling as to why a much smaller boiler would take as long.
> 
> Will be interesting to see how it behaves when out in the wild.
> 
> John


itsall about group temp not boiler temp, boiler will be up to temp in 5 mins


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## grumpydaddy

coffeechap said:


> Yep


Bastach... You are supposed to post said pic, not sit there gloating.

Seriously though, just how small is it?


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## coffeechap

its long and narrow so not an easy retro fit to existing l1s


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## johnealey

coffeechap said:


> itsall about group temp not boiler temp, boiler will be up to temp in 5 mins


that's how I understood it hence my query as to the times for heat up quoted earlier in this thread being an hour when a regular pre R L1 is not quoted as taking an hour. If the Boiler and the group remain the same is it the change from thermosiphon to HX (if have understood this correctly) that is now adding some additional time?

Just curious (I leave the L2 at least an hour to heat up)

John


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## Snakehips

Setting aside the financial implications, I'm pondering the merits or otherwise of upgrading to the Londinium R and have more questions than answers.

In fact, it's just the one answer&#8230;&#8230;.

I consider that the noise from the vibe pump on a tank fed L1 is neither prolonged (4-5 seconds per shot) nor ridiculously noisy but arguably, it takes the edge off an otherwise satisfyingly silent and tactile coffee making process. So, I think in common with most users I would welcome the reduced noise level that the rotary pump should bring to the LR.

Questions&#8230;&#8230;.

Is the LR now, effectively, a scaled down L1P ?

In which case Is the design considered to be pretty much rock solid or might feedback from owners of early build machines lead to design tweaks?

I note that the main benefits in the cup will likely be seen when using lighter roasts. Will dark / medium roasts benefit at all?

If not, is there any reason to think the LR could be a backward step for dark / medium?

How might 3 bar pre-infusion impact upon existing recipes that are currently based on 1 bar pi?

Given that I pollute my coffee with milk is the current L1 more machine than I deserve anyway ? (Maybe don't answer that)

@coffeechap, @foundrycoffeeroasters.com, Dave, Lee, et al, I welcome your thoughts.


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## coffeechap

The l1-r is a scaled down l1-p with the added bonus that it has a new rotary pump meaning it can be tank fed, the pump is also adjustable so a variety of pre infusion pressures can be achieved although I believe it is being set at 3 bar initially.

Reiss has had this machine at home for over a month and is more than happy with the results he is getter by, I doubt there will be any tweets to this machine as the fundamentals are already tried and tested.

The LR will not be a backwards step it will still excel at dark roasts, however lighter roasts will see the biggest step up in the cup.

3bar Pre infusion should not impact too much on current recipes you may need to tweak them a little.

A flat white is only as good as the shot it is prepared with, although milk will mask a multitude of sins, an amazing shot of coffee will shine through perfectly steamed milk


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## Grahamg

Well, I'll certainly be keeping my eye on the classifieds if any of you light roast aficionados get the urge... I've even got a bike lined up to sell to fund it


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## arellim

Do current owners ever get a discount when upgrading? Or wishful thinking...

Or maybe we can increase the pressure on our L1s....? (I have plumb-line already)


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## holdtheonions

arellim said:


> Do current owners ever get a discount when upgrading? Or wishful thinking...
> 
> Or maybe we can increase the pressure on our L1s....? (I have plumb-line already)


Can read this for plumb and pump options on "old" L1 http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?35040-Plumb-L1-for-Line-PI


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## Snakehips

Grahamg said:


> Well, I'll certainly be keeping my eye on the classifieds if any of you light roast aficionados get the urge... I've even got a bike lined up to sell to fund it


 @Grahamg You sold that bike yet?


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## Grahamg

Not yet, but sold a grinder and a few other things over the last week or two so I've cash waiting and a job that allows intermittent classifieds checks!


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