# Water hardness effect on extraction



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I have done a search - in google too, and surprisingly couldn't find a definitive answer to this..... even though I've read @Mrboots2u mention this several times.

Anyway so thought I'd ask again:

All things being equal - what affect will harder water have on extraction compared to softer?

I've just installed a BWT premium V and although I was expecting an improvement - the change has been quite dramatic across my equipment and usual workflow parameters.

On beans I really know well I'm having to change the grind and/or ratio. The taste is fantastic, huge step on - I just didn't expect such a change


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

kennyboy993 said:


> I have done a search - in google too, and surprisingly couldn't find a definitive answer to this..... even though I've read @Mrboots2u mention this several times.
> 
> Anyway so thought I'd ask again:
> 
> ...


Reading this claim Kenny it appears to do what it says on the 'Tin'.

The BWT Bestmax Pramium M filter cartridge - capacity: up to 3240 liters.* The Cartridges with "AromaPLUS" aromatic formula provide an innovative filtering system of water optimization for catering. They reduce limescale build-up and total hardness of drinking water and at the same time they protect devices used in catering, eg. coffee machines, espresso machines, vending machines for hot and cold drink, steam cookers, combination ovens or ice makers against limescale build-up. They also improve the taste and flavour of beverages as they remove flavours and aromatic substances such as chlorine. Additionally, they filter water contaminants. How it works: Water from the network flows through the cartridge. The pre-filter removes particulate matter and activated carbon eliminates odorants and flavourants, such as chlorine. Then, in the ion exchanger, carbonates are removed, the water is treated by activated carbon and filtered. In the filter, there is a bypass mounted so that carbonates are not removed from the predetermined quantity of water. This part of water is filtered only by passing through activated carbon and the protective filter. The decarbonised water and the water from bypass mix at the outlet. * For the devices without a steam generator - max. temp. is 95 ° C; water hardness: 10d and the bypass is set at level 3.

......... Jon.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Oh yeah Jon it's definitely doing its thing - I just wanted to learn more about how it's affected extraction.

I can't remember which way around it is - harder more or less


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

kennyboy993 said:


> I have done a search - in google too, and surprisingly couldn't find a definitive answer to this..... even though I've read @Mrboots2u mention this several times.
> 
> Anyway so thought I'd ask again:
> 
> All things being equal - what affect will harder water have on extraction compared to softer?


I think the problem is all things are never equal, and to even try to define that would put a single test into a special circumstance, one so special that it would probably only be valid for those situations and not useful for the majority. The second problem is the assumption that it's an extraction issue (if that's what you mean) rather than a taste perception issue. What I mean by this is the extraction may be x%, but I'm using water contaminated with H2S might make it smell bad, which you would associate with taste. The x% might be the perfect level, but it tastes/smells like crap literally.

If I assume when you talk about extraction, you simply mean a good or bad extraction in terms of a good looking and tasty shot?

Then it's important to consider mains water and it's quality...something I have banged on about for years. Mains tap water has


Chlorine

Fluoride (when I go to Florida I can tell I'm there just because of the taste of the water)

Rust

Contaminants Dry residues (god knows what)

Various chemical residues

Sometimes it even smells like an old pond (especially summertime)

Varying degrees of calcium and magnesium carbonate

Sometimes a touch of leads to sweeten things up










Although we get used to these things and probably used to the taste of our tap water, it must affect the taste of the coffee we make. This is long before we consider extraction %s, refractomers, hard and soft water, Ionic concentrations, Mineral sachets used by the cognicenti etc. etc.. So the first thing is to deal with the base water quality. I guess there are 5 ways of doing that, Move, dig a well (if you are in the right place), bottled water, Reverse Osmosis, or other types of filtration. I have also said many times that I did experiments with a distillation unit I have. 3.8 litres tapwater results in about 3.5 litres distillate and 30-40 ml left in the still. what's left in the still stinks, can in summer have some oily clear spots in it and is brownish in colour. It's what's left after all the H2O came out....BUT I guarantee if I tipped it back in the 3.5 litres of distilled water and stirred it in., you would not want to drink the water!

To my way of thinking we first need to get our water to a base level and then start from there in treating it etc..The best way I can think of is either use RO and then treat it, or to use high quality bottled water of the correct type. Due to the distillation experiments, we have been using RO water for drinking, tea and coffee (treated for coffee), for the last decade or more.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks for the insight Dave - I think I've confused things by adding my own recent experience.

I'm looking for the scientific fact - that I think exists - of how coffee dissolves differently in hard or soft water?

Maybe I've got myself confused more than I thought


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

kennyboy993 said:


> Thanks for the insight Dave - I think I've confused things by adding my own recent experience.
> 
> I'm looking for the scientific fact - that I think exists - of how coffee dissolves differently in hard or soft water?
> 
> Maybe I've got myself confused more than I thought


I don't think you have...I am sure there will be a difference, it feels like there should be just in terms of the hard water affecting waters ability to be a solvent and the ph of the water.

What I am not so sure about is whether that's a major consideration when looking at other things and which should be dealt with first. For sure hard water scales up the espresso machine, this affects it's performance (in many ways) and hence the taste of the coffee. Theres a whole plethora of things to consider. I suspect some are much more important than the ability to dissolve a higher % of the coffee....


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

kennyboy993 said:


> Thanks for the insight Dave - I think I've confused things by adding my own recent experience.
> 
> I'm looking for the scientific fact - that I think exists - of how coffee dissolves differently in hard or soft water?
> 
> Maybe I've got myself confused more than I thought


I personally feel it's pretty much irrelevant. The water can change the taste of the coffee at the same measurable extraction, even at the same hardness, depending on the make up.

You wouldn't use water that extracted significantly more/less (if they even exist) if they were likely to damage your machine.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I agree - 6 months ago water quality was the least of my problems.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> I think the problem is all things are never equal, and to even try to define that would put a single test into a special circumstance, one so special that it would probably only be valid for those situations and not useful for the majority. The second problem is the assumption that it's an extraction issue (if that's what you mean) rather than a taste perception issue. What I mean by this is the extraction may be x%, but I'm using water contaminated with H2S might make it smell bad, which you would associate with taste. The x% might be the perfect level, but it tastes/smells like crap literally.
> 
> If I assume when you talk about extraction, you simply mean a good or bad extraction in terms of a good looking and tasty shot?
> 
> ...


Taking in all these considerations DaveUK and bearing in mind some advice you gave regard my consideration for mains, I am leaning heavily toward the continued use of bottled water (Larger the better)but in a large reservoir and pumping to the machine.

My reasoning is consistency, removing the variation that can possibly take place in other systems such as, when you initially start with a filtered system, when you replace elements in theat system and the period as you approach the need to effect maintenance on the system.

I am assuming that bottled water will give me that constant consistency with only the slightest of barely measurable differences.

Jon.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

xpresso said:


> Taking in all these considerations DaveUK and bearing in mind some advice you gave regard my consideration for mains, I am leaning heavily toward the continued use of bottled water (Larger the better)but in a large reservoir and pumping to the machine.
> 
> My reasoning is consistency, removing the variation that can possibly take place in other systems such as, when you initially start with a filtered system, when you replace elements in theat system and the period as you approach the need to effect maintenance on the system.
> 
> ...


Probably a good idea, also you don't need to pump the water to the machine if it is on the countertop. If it's too far below the machine you "might" have to....


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

There's a book on the subject called "Water For Coffee" but it's unavailable at the minute awaiting the 2nd edition. Then there's Jim Schulman's 'insanely long water FAQ' http://users.rcn.com/erics/Water%20Quality/Water%20FAQ.pdf


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Rob1 said:


> There's a book on the subject called "Water For Coffee" but it's unavailable at the minute awaiting the 2nd edition. Then there's Jim Schulman's 'insanely long water FAQ' http://users.rcn.com/erics/Water%20Quality/Water%20FAQ.pdf


But the book doesn't answer the OP's question. Neither does the Schulman FAQ.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Really? I thought that was the entire purpose of the book -- to test how water with different mineral compositions affects extraction. There's a section in the FAQ which includes a taste test (page 11 section 3). There are no extraction percentages and it doesn't go into how taste is affected just what tastes better, which I assumed was the point of the question.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I am no water expert and never done any hardness v softness tests or had a water filter. I went through a period of making some basic water recipes at home with @Xpenno help. I don't anymore. As for The Hendon book, it's to dry ( for a book on water lol) and I could not be bothered reading it

Anyway Different water ( chemistry , hardness, softness ) will potentially impact on the taste of coffee. It could be better at pulling out tasty from coffee.

As mentioned its hard to isolate one aspect and it's impact in espresso making.

As always pull a shot to a brew ratio, note time, taste, change as required.


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## SamUK (Apr 18, 2016)

Rob1 said:


> There's a book on the subject called "Water For Coffee" but it's unavailable at the minute awaiting the 2nd edition.


Ah. I was in Colonna & Smalls last week and someone was photographing a book with a DSLR and a tripod...


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> Probably a good idea, also you don't need to pump the water to the machine if it is on the countertop. If it's too far below the machine you "might" have to....


Very interesting DaveUK, I've not quite looked at it in depth and as much as I would like to open up my machine just to familiarise myself with the innards, whilst it's under warranty I'll relent.

You may recall I mentioned I have a suitable pump to pursue my original thoughts, however am I to take it that it's sufficient to gravity feed the machine and that there is no minimum supply pressure requirement when opting for the plumbed in mode ?.

That being the case I'm in the fortunate position to be able to mount a reservoir above the machine and get a perfect pipe run free of any air traps/locks.

Jon.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Rob1 said:


> Really? I thought that was the entire purpose of the book -- to test how water with different mineral compositions affects extraction. There's a section in the FAQ which includes a taste test (page 11 section 3). There are no extraction percentages and it doesn't go into how taste is affected just what tastes better, which I assumed was the point of the question.


But water at the same hardness, but different make up will taste different even if it extracts the same (as far as we can tell). The purpose of the book, Schulman & other pre existing water specs is to minimise scaling & see what tastes OK. @kennyboy993 is filtering his mains supply so his make up will be pretty constant. The water will make the coffee taste different to unfiltered & reduce scaling, but specifics regarding extraction are not known.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> But water at the same hardness, but different make up will taste different even if it extracts the same (as far as we can tell). The purpose of the book, Schulman & other pre existing water specs is to minimise scaling & see what tastes OK. @kennyboy993 is filtering his mains supply so his make up will be pretty constant. The water will make the coffee taste different to unfiltered & reduce scaling, but specifics regarding extraction are not known.


Yeah this is nearest to what I was originally asking - and I can see I probably asked the wrong question.

I can pull a shot on a bean I know well and it tastes the same time after time. I pull the same shot now with different filtering and it tastes different enough for me to want to change my ratio or even grind setting..... not because it now tastes poor (it tastes MUCH better) but because I'm thinking maybe with this water there's even tastier to be had.

Non of this surprises me - as I said I'm not articulating a problem here..... but would be interested to understand what might be going on.

I've learnt from you guys here that better extraction doesn't necessarily mean higher extraction and that's good learning for me - thanks. Suppose that makes sense as the former is subjective and the latter can be measured absolutely


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

kennyboy993 said:


> I pull the same shot now with different filtering and it tastes different enough for me to want to change my ratio or even grind setting..... not because it now tastes poor (it tastes MUCH better) but because I'm thinking maybe with this water there's even tastier to be had.


If you're happy with the strength just change the grind setting.


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## poolfan (May 9, 2014)

I'm interested in your advice on water for an espresso machine - I've an RO already in the house, so could either take softened water (with no other filtration) which could be plumbed as inline so pressurised from mains, else the RO water, which could not be plumbed to machine, so resorvoir top up needed. Machine primary for milk based drinks, limited espresso.

If soft water, although negligible limescale, there will be other impurities still in water. If RO, then would be very clean, slightly acidic.

Is there a general consensus of what to use given these choices, options i see

(1) RO water as long as using SS boiler machine to avoid acidic attack of brass

(2) RO water with bicarb dosed with SS boiler machine to improve water taste for espresso

(3) use soft water supply, boiler can then be brass / SS?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

What is 'RO' ?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

kennyboy993 said:


> What is 'RO' ?


Reverse osmosis


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

kennyboy993 said:


> What is 'RO' ?


I'm cheating as all credits go to some bloke who goes by the name of DavecUK

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/reverse-osmosis

There's more much much more on the site so worth a bookmark


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Okay, I've been trying to avoid asking this question for a long time (as I didn't have the spare brain capacity to deal with the answer), it is possible to relatively easily make my own water for coffee?

I don't want to plumb my machine - I have a spare tap installed but nowhere for big filters.

Buying 5l bottles of ashbeck is fine, but I dislike the plastic waste.

I don't have spare cupboard space under sink for a plumbed RO System, so is anyone aware of something like what Dave has reviewed in the link Mines posted, but effectively countertop - ie pour tap water in one end, collect soft, suitably mineralised coffee water at the other?


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## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

Maidenhead aquatics used to supply RO water. Take your own re-usable container and you could get it filled for a price. They have stores all over the uk these days. Not sure if they still do this, or of the cost. Might be worth a check to see if RO is going to work for you?


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Syenitic said:


> Might be worth a check to see if RO is going to work for you?


That's a good idea - i hadn't realised it was the sort of thing you could buy.

Quickly end up with that being too difficult with little ones tho, sadly.

What did you mean by the above?


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

rob177palmer said:


> Okay, I've been trying to avoid asking this question for a long time (as I didn't have the spare brain capacity to deal with the answer), it is possible to relatively easily make my own water for coffee?
> 
> I don't want to plumb my machine - I have a spare tap installed but nowhere for big filters.
> 
> ...


Hello Rob.

A filter can be positioned away from the machine, you are not talking 1/2" pipe from the filter to the machine, it is only small bore pipe and can be easily routed almost like a cable.

If you are considering making your own water, it may well be counter productive when you are concerned of plastic waste, you will be adding the footprint in other ways to produce your own and have some form of analysing it.

My current view at the water supply for these machines after about 10 weeks in is .........

A.) Bottled water should be consistent every time in it's stated make up, the plastic will be disposed of via a recyclable route. (5ltr containers are not picnic items).

B.) Filters will need replacing at intervals, from day one use there will be a reduction in it's filtration efficiency, YES within parameters, but a reduction non the less and therefore a difference in flavour or a reason for wondering if your coffee flavour is due to the filtration fall off or other circumstances. Cartridge disposal is small, what about it's contents ?.

C.) Filling your own may be a way to go, but if an unscrupulous manager/supplier wants to make a few extra bob and do a 50/50 in his bulk tank who's to know, I would agree this is possible with bottled, but a lot less likely me'thinks.

So I need to be convinced that bottled water is not the best form of supply.

Jon.


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## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

rob177palmer said:


> That's a good idea - i hadn't realised it was the sort of thing you could buy.
> 
> Quickly end up with that being too difficult with little ones tho, sadly.
> 
> What did you mean by the above?


I meant try RO and mixing your own water before you invest in a worktop machine. You never know you may not be able to taste the difference between that and your usual bottled/filtered water.


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## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

xpresso said:


> C.) Filling your own may be a way to go, but if an unscrupulous manager/supplier wants to make a few extra bob and do a 50/50 in his bulk tank who's to know, I would agree this is possible with bottled, but a lot less likely me'thinks.
> 
> So I need to be convinced that bottled water is not the best form of supply.
> 
> Jon.


I think if maidenhead aquatics supplied sub-standard / 'cut' RO water they would soon have unhappy marine fishkeeper's banging on the door wanting an explanation of why their mini ecosystem collapsed after the last water change. That said I neither am a customer or fishkeeper and do not know if the service still exists.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

This idea got me thinking - I wonder if a friendly local cafe would refill empty 5l water bottles for a fee...?


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

Syenitic said:


> I think if maidenhead aquatics supplied sub-standard / 'cut' RO water they would soon have unhappy marine fishkeeper's banging on the door wanting an explanation of why their mini ecosystem collapsed after the last water change. That said I neither am a customer or fishkeeper and do not know if the service still exists.


'Cut' .. Marines are normally salt water fish, no mention of Maidenhead Aquatics it was directed at possible outlets of bulk supply, R O water if used in a fish tank would still need a minerals added.

Jon.


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## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

RO water used for marines also goes through a Deionisation process....

TDS used in reef tanks should be zero which is hard to get with the RO membrane alone.

Many aquatics stores are poor and will will not supply zero TDS water - hence most marine fish keepers who keep reef tanks will invest in their own...

If anyone local to hornchurch wants some zero TDS water to experiment with, will happily run off 5 litres


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> All things being equal - what affect will harder water have on extraction compared to softer? I've just installed a BWT premium V and although I was expecting an improvement - the change has been quite dramatic across my equipment and usual workflow parameters. On beans I really know well I'm having to change the grind and/or ratio. The taste is fantastic, huge step on - I just didn't expect such a change


Just picking up on the "taste" aspect that Kenny refers to. I live in London, so hard water and not too nice. After using tap water for months to teach myself about the equipment etc. I've now settled in to more of a routine, so started on bottled water. I believe the change in taste is clearly noticeable - much better as above. Differences between Ashbeck and Blackhills may or may not be there, it's close, but differences between tap water and Blackhills, which is the Waitrose brand recommended here, is not subtle.

Can anyone else comment on differences in taste?


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