# Water whole lotta difference



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

OK, Maxwell's WBC routine and his paper has brought to the fore how important the water characteristics are for bringing out the flavour in coffee.

I've been brewing Chemex for some time using Ashbeck and pretty pleased with results. By pure accident (not having access to Ashbeck) been brewing pour over win Volvic. Results on the couple of bean offerings I have with me are stunning. Using a Hausgrind which, although excellent, is not IMO the reason for the wonderful flavour clarity I'm enjoying. Both beans are natural process so lighter on acidity. Don't have any washed beans to compare to.

Any thoughts?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hmm need to experiment

Having a V60 at work has lead to me buying bottled there , so will try Clearview versus Volvic etc

Moved onto Ashbeck for home use . Got to admit seen the quality of shot improve and brewed too. Seems to be less acidity ? clearer flavour ?

Its one of those things that people can spunk £1000's on equipment yet quibble on an extra £1-2 for beans or not think about the water they are using .

Im not an expert re what the water does and Ive watched Maxwell's WBC doth know how to marry this up to bottled water on offer in shops though . A water system in rented accommodation isn't a option ......


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

You want a fair bit of calcium (rounded and creamy), a fair bit of magnesium (bright fruity) and a fair bit of buffer (carbonates tones down acidity)

calcium+ carbonate = scale. So given the choice magnesium > calcium, although 50/50 a good balance.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> You want a fair bit of calcium (rounded and creamy), a fair bit of magnesium (bright fruity) and a fair bit of buffer (carbonates tones down acidity)
> 
> calcium+ carbonate = scale. So given the choice magnesium > calcium, although 50/50 a good balance.


Sorry to be a lazy dill weed but how is this reflected in the figures that are on the back of bottled water then ....

whats a fair amount of calcium for example...


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

40 calcium

50 magnesium

60 bicarb

something like that. hard to find without water blending , say clearview+highland spring


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> 40 calcium
> 
> 50 magnesium
> 
> ...


Oh christ

now you have said it . I predict a water blending thread next week .........

Do water filter systems in cafes do this then ( again being a lazy sod )

What do they do in Colonna and Smalls - do they have the facility to blend the water say ?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Water blending!!

Oh man, to much to think about now, im only just playing with bean blending.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I like to roast my water to second crack


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> I like to roast my water to second crack


In your second crack?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Oh christ
> 
> now you have said it . I predict a water blending thread next week .........
> 
> ...


They will start with Bath's famous high mineral water (rubbish for coffee) and strip minerals out to a desired level.

The other way would be to reverse osmosis and re-add minerals


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I use Volvic for my chemex (and espresso) and the flavours are fantastic, occasionaly I have to use tap water and it really mutes the taste especially on lighter roasts.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

aaronb said:


> I use Volvic for my chemex (and espresso) and the flavours are fantastic, occasionaly I have to use tap water and it really mutes the taste especially on lighter roasts.


Did you try a few to get to Volvic or was it the first one you settled on?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I swapped from Ashbeck to Clearview in the Sage today and have noticed some change in the espresso for the better, there seems to be more clarity of flavour, I drained the last of the Ashbeck out of both boilers before refilling with Clearview. Not tried it for brewed yet though.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Volvic is my bottled water of choice, my last incarnation before installing my BWT filter was a 50/50 mixture of Volvic and Clearview mixed and run through a BWT MG2+ filter in a brita jug. the MG2+ exchanges some of the calcium with magnesium to balance it out. It's a slight compromise as the magnesium and calcium values are still lower than ideal.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Did you try a few to get to Volvic or was it the first one you settled on?


Went for it as Londinium Reiss recommended running the L1 off it.

I've played around with tap, a Brita filter and Volvic before though all with the same coffee (a really ripe fruity Kenyan AB) and it was just bland with the filter and tap water.


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## TonyW (Jul 17, 2012)

I'm currently using Volvic based on Reiss's analysis and recommendations too.

Reiss did a really interesting blog entry on the subject, that explains why Volvic is the best option. He outlined the key requirements of water for good coffee then evaluated bottled brands against those to arrive at the Volvic recommendation. His blog entry is here:

http://londiniumespresso.com/blog/the-best-water-for-your-espresso-machine

There's also "Jim Schulmans insanely long water FAQ" that goes into even more detail on the key requirements here:

http://londiniumespresso.com/~londes/blog/jim-schulmans-insanely-long-water-faq

It all sounded like good science to my caffeine-addled brain.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I think Maxwell's latest research surpasses all that though, and he does say in one of his speeches that volvic isn't necessarily the best (although it is good).


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## TonyW (Jul 17, 2012)

Interesting. I'll take a look at Maxwell's stuff when I get home, thanks.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Thanks from me, too, Maxwell's blog in itself looks interesting and he's obviously doing serious scientific work on 'The Role of Dissolved Cations in Coffee Extraction'. While everyone is watching the world cup tonight, I'll listen to his speech and read the paper (If I can understand it).

And, since an earlier post on the forum it has been Volvic all the way.


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## michaelg (Jul 25, 2013)

I used to have access to one of these in my lab days.

Thank God I don't work there now or I'd be filling huge bottles with water from it and then adding lab grade minerals back into it in the relevant quantities to experiment with different ratios!

Who's gonna be the first to buy one then?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

TonyW & Phil, check out the 'Tamper Tantrum' talks which feature one from Maxwell, it's really informative!


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Thank you - located it and will watch it later (when I have finished my list of jobs for this afternoon).


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

So, where does one buy Volvic then? Ocado do 2 x 6, 1.5 litre bottles on offer for £5 but of course do not deliver to my area! And there are two sides to using bottled water. The first, taste has been covered but the second is regarding de-scaling


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Someone on here posted recently about checking a machine that had been run on bottled water after not that long and it had signs of scale.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Someone on here posted recently about checking a machine that had been run on bottled water after not that long and it had signs of scale.


Think Volvic is fine - believe, somewhere in the mists of time, Reiss recommended it for LIs


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Here's the link

http://londiniumespresso.com/blog/the-best-water-for-your-espresso-machine


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## chinery (Apr 14, 2014)

I'm under the impression that having high calcium and magnesium isn't bad for the coffee (except that high calcium causes scale), it's just that high minerals tends to come with high bicarbonate (KH).

I've been using Waitrose Essential (Stretton Hills) water which is what Maxwell recommends in his article in the London Coffee Guide 2014. However I've recently started buying Volvic as well. I've noticed a slight improvement in my cold brew since switching, I think the Waitrose stuff may have actually had too low of a bicarbonate (I think it is 39 vs Volvic's 71).

Anyway, now that the WBCs are over, we can expect Maxwell to publish his ebook on water in the next month or so I'd imagine. It's intended for commercial use, but might help us simple home users!


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

chinery said:


> I'm under the impression that having high calcium and magnesium isn't bad for the coffee (except that high calcium causes scale), it's just that high minerals tends to come with high bicarbonate (KH).
> 
> I've been using Waitrose Essential (Stretton Hills) water which is what Maxwell recommends in his article in the London Coffee Guide 2014. However I've recently started buying Volvic as well. I've noticed a slight improvement in my cold brew since switching, I think the Waitrose stuff may have actually had too low of a bicarbonate (I think it is 39 vs Volvic's 71).
> 
> Anyway, now that the WBCs are over, we can expect Maxwell to publish his ebook on water in the next month or so I'd imagine. It's intended for commercial use, but might help us simple home users!


Watch the TT talk and his WBC routine, he talks about calcium and magnesium and what it actually means in the cup


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Someone on here posted recently about checking a machine that had been run on bottled water after not that long and it had signs of scale.


I think using bottled water is going to reduce the amount of scale build up but not necessarily eliminate it completely .

as far as I am aware its the minerals in the water that contribute to the build up of scale , not knowing exactly which ones would be responsible for scale other than lime??


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

After spending some time taking to BWT about my water supply, testing and them analysing the water board report they recommended a Bestmin filter for me. Essentially the water here is H2O plus chlorine and some fluoride (nice) and if you look hard enough then some nasty bacteria. There is nothing at all good for coffee in there. The Bestmin essentially filters the chlorine and other crap out and then re-mineralises the water with coffee extracting goodness. Based on tests of the new water I'm now running in the sweet spot for espresso.

In the cup I'm getting more intense flavours, better extractions (I'm basing on taste not actual measurements) with less water and I'm not having to lug many litres of mineral water around the supermarket.

The plumbing in has been a little traumatic with lots of plumbers merchants looking at me like I was mad. "You want to connected that to that, no mate, that's not how you do it" well I'm sure it isn't but what the hell, the thing works and I should have the final parts today to fit a PRV in front of the filter as well. I basically took a Y-connector from the washing machine cold tap, ran that using a washing machine hose to a couple of male-female reducing bushes to go from 3/4" down to 3/8" of the BWT filter. On the outlet I just fitted the BWT flush tap with a blocking cap on the end and I use the flush tap to fill whatever I need to. Pretty easy if you know what you are looking for!


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Thecatlinux said:


> I think using bottled water is going to reduce the amount of scale build up but not necessarily eliminate it completely .
> 
> as far as I am aware its the minerals in the water that contribute to the build up of scale , not knowing exactly which ones would be responsible for scale other than lime??


You can't assume this unfortunately. My tap water has a lower dry residue that most bottled waters. Just because you are using one type of water doesn't mean that you shouldn't regularly de-scale. Most minerals in the water can contribute to scale in a high temperature environment where you are using temperatures above water's boiling point. If you check bottled water it should list the dry residue in grams, this should give you a good indicator as to the amount of build up you should expect (lower the better) but it depends on many factors such as how long and often you have your machine on for etc...

Volvic, Ashbeck and Clearview are pretty good in the this respect, from memory waitrose is worse and then stuff like Evian is many times worse (and is also no good for the taste of coffee anyway).


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

In terms of scale the real bad guy is calcium carbonate, the stuff responsible for some of the incredible cave formations under the peak district and all the petrifying element of a petrifying well. So the worst places for this to naturally occur in water are where it has been filtered down into the ground through chalk or limestone.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Charliej said:


> In terms of scale the real bad guy is calcium carbonate, the stuff responsible for some of the incredible cave formations under the peak district and all the petrifying element of a petrifying well. So the worst places for this to naturally occur in water are where it has been filtered down into the ground through chalk or limestone.


Agreed, you can get Carbonate Hardness testers for next to nothing on amazon and the like


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## James811 (May 10, 2014)

Just popped to asda and got a 5L bottle of Eden falls water. I'm using this for brewed coffee but just want to try it and compare to tap water. My question is this, the kettle that we have been using tap water in for the last year or so, will it be worth putting my bottles water in there or not because of existing limescale etc or will it be ok?

James


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

If you are going to the trouble of using bottled water, would be a good idea to use a non-scaled up kettle to avoid transferring impurities to your bottled water. If you haven't got a pour over kettle, why not use a stainless steel pan to heat up your water prior to brewing?


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## James811 (May 10, 2014)

Yea I think that's what I'm going to do mate, just use a pan then pour into a jug









Thanks


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## poolfan (May 9, 2014)

who thought the simple act of filling your espresso machine would be so complicated


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> After spending some time taking to BWT about my water supply, testing and them analysing the water board report they recommended a Bestmin filter for me. Essentially the water here is H2O plus chlorine and some fluoride (nice) and if you look hard enough then some nasty bacteria. There is nothing at all good for coffee in there. The Bestmin essentially filters the chlorine and other crap out and then re-mineralises the water with coffee extracting goodness. Based on tests of the new water I'm now running in the sweet spot for espresso.
> 
> In the cup I'm getting more intense flavours, better extractions (I'm basing on taste not actual measurements) with less water and I'm not having to lug many litres of mineral water around the supermarket.
> 
> The plumbing in has been a little traumatic with lots of plumbers merchants looking at me like I was mad. "You want to connected that to that, no mate, that's not how you do it" well I'm sure it isn't but what the hell, the thing works and I should have the final parts today to fit a PRV in front of the filter as well. I basically took a Y-connector from the washing machine cold tap, ran that using a washing machine hose to a couple of male-female reducing bushes to go from 3/4" down to 3/8" of the BWT filter. On the outlet I just fitted the BWT flush tap with a blocking cap on the end and I use the flush tap to fill whatever I need to. Pretty easy if you know what you are looking for!


How much does this setup cost, if you don't mind me asking?


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

i have been using Highland spring as it has a TDS of around 150 but now reading Gary's advice in has a slightly low magnesium content?

also there is another side to bottled water that has not been discussed, the Phthalates in most plastic packaging used as a plasticiser to make bottles flexible = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalate and they are not to good for you to say the least.


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

Bit of an old thread but Maxwell's upcoming book made me think about the water I'm using. Picked up three bottles today. I was looking for water with similar characteristics to Volvic but couldn't find one. Which one would you say is best to start testing with? I can drink only so many cups..

Water 1: http://i.imgur.com/1AVNIAV.jpg

Water 2: http://i.imgur.com/hzpMYvy.jpg

Water 3: http://i.imgur.com/D1n7dXx.jpg (doesn't have Mg on the label..)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

bronc said:


> Bit of an old thread but Maxwell's upcoming book made me think about the water I'm using. Picked up three bottles today. I was looking for water with similar characteristics to Volvic but couldn't find one. Which one would you say is best to start testing with? I can drink only so many cups..
> 
> Water 1: http://i.imgur.com/1AVNIAV.jpg
> 
> ...


Try a mix, 1x part water #1 to 2x/3x parts water #3?


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

I believe none of them are any good. First two have high bicarbonate, the first one also has a high pH. The third one looks like it isn't far off distilled water, very low mineral content across the board so also not much use.

You will find more info in this thread http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=24651 where we are currently discussing water.


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

Not many options with water here..


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

MWJB has a good idea about possibly mixing them. That pH on bottle #1 is Evian territory. I'd try a mix of #2 and #3. What's your tap water like?


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

To add to this you can read the journal article on this from the link below. Something I am looking into with interest given our piss weak mega soft lake district water here in Manchester, the challenge is adding minerals back into the water to help extraction.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/jf501687c


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

forzajuve said:


> To add to this you can read the journal article on this from the link below. Something I am looking into with interest given our piss weak mega soft lake district water here in Manchester, the challenge is adding minerals back into the water to help extraction.
> 
> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/jf501687c


It is super soft. I Brita mine to get the masses of Chlorine used round here out, but it means I end up with water that is not far off of RO


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

aaroncornish said:


> It is super soft. I Brita mine to get the masses of Chlorine used round here out, but it means I end up with water that is not far off of RO


But a really good starting point for producing your own coffee spec water mix, maybe more difficult if plumbed in but not impossible.


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