# Sticky  Kafmasino ONE: Advanced coffee made simple



## Kafmasino

Hello everyone, thank you for the high expectation about our project.

We are two brothers, Sergio and Jorge from Madrid, Spain.

Two years ago we decided to start this project, since both of us value good coffee and we love spending our free time by bringing new projects to life.
It all started as a hobby project modifying a few coffee machines and adding our own software, but with the time and the progresses we made, we got convinced that Kafmasino could meet with great interest on the market. Two years from that moment and after a lot of work, Kafmasino as a brand is finally born and we are happy to launch our first kick-starter campaign.

We have developed Kafmaŝino One to fulfil the necessity of home baristas who aim to make a perfect espresso. Our main goal is to develop a coffee machine which gives baristas exact, continuous, and consistent control over all the different parameters that the coffee machine provides at an affordable price.

Due to the fact that we are not a factory, to have something reliable we needed to use a base of a machine and install the components that we felt were the best for our goal. After two years of testing and some prototypes later we developed Kafmasino ONE. We have the working prototype, and our suppliers are ready for production.

Obviously, this is an initial prototype that is not closed to future modifications, especially talking about the software, which will continue to be modified and improved to adapt to new needs and expectations of customers.

Now let's talk about our machine and what it offers.

Machine:



550ml water boiler



Independent thermoblock for steaming



Control with physical buttons or with tablet



15 bar Italian vibratory pump



110/120V version



220V/240V version

App:



Pressure and flow profiling



PID temperature control



Real time shot sensor readings



Basic profiles based on pressure or flow



Advanced profiles with infinite steps of pressure or flow/ limits, triggers&#8230;



Shot history



Community to share and download profiles from the app



Gravimetric dosing



Volumetric dosing



Compatible with all devices (BLE 4.0+)



Android and iOS support

Smart Scale:



0.1g precision



Accurate and reliable readings



BLE connection



Tablet experience:



8" HD capacitive screen



8 core processor



Android 10

*We developed Kafmasino ONE for ourselves, and now if you guys are interested, we would love to share it with you!!*

We have put all our heart and effort into bringing Kafmasino to life.
Help us to make more people join our community and get the chance to win a free Kafmassino ONE.

Follow us on Kickstarter






*Screenshots:*

Coffee tab









Profile editors:

















History of shots:









Community:


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## MediumRoastSteam

Hola Sergio, Jorge! Bienvenidos!

I have two questions with regards to the machine if you don't mind me asking here:

- Will the software allow you to control the temperature up/down during the shot? (By what I read so far, I don't think it will, but worth asking)
- For controlling pressure profiling... Is this controlled by the pump or is it downstream of the circuit via some sort of device or valve?

Many thanks!

Ps: Creative choice of name... Literally "Coffee Machine" in Esperanto. 🙂


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## jorgen83

Hmm, looks Decent.


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## MediumRoastSteam

What I like about this project is that the machine used as baseline is an off-the-shelf machine. Which, hopefully in the future, other machines could be modified/adapted with some sort of kit to perform some of the functionality around pressure and flow profiling, as well as gravimetric and flow control.

I'm following this with interest.


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## Guest

jorgen83 said:


> Hmm, looks Decent.


 I see what you did there 😁


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## Kafmasino

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Hola Sergio, Jorge! Bienvenidos!
> 
> I have two questions with regards to the machine if you don't mind me asking here:
> 
> - Will the software allow you to control the temperature up/down during the shot? (By what I read so far, I don't think it will, but worth asking)
> - For controlling pressure profiling... Is this controlled by the pump or is it downstream of the circuit via some sort of device or valve?
> 
> Many thanks!
> 
> Ps: Creative choice of name... Literally "Coffee Machine" in Esperanto. 🙂


 Thank you for the warm welcome.

Regarding your questions:
- Temperature goal is the same during all the shot.
- Pump is controlled by internal electronic components, which allows us to control power delivered to the pump with precission.

Nice to know you like the origin of the name


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## 4085

@Kafmasino Hi Guys! I appreciate that you are launching on Kickstarter soon, but I am sure you already know that there is a wealth of knowledge available on this platform. That means you may receive criticism from some folks and genuine help and praise from others! Without interfering with your Kickstarter, I am sure many members would love any juicy bits you can throw at them!


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## Kafmasino

dfk41 said:


> @Kafmasino Hi Guys! I appreciate that you are launching on Kickstarter soon, but I am sure you already know that there is a wealth of knowledge available on this platform. That means you may receive criticism from some folks and genuine help and praise from others! Without interfering with your Kickstarter, I am sure many members would love any juicy bits you can throw at them!


 Thanks a lot for your interest! Since we know that there are many people with expertise in this forum, we are open to your comments and opinions.
I recommend you to follow us on social media where we post daily information about Kafmasino.


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## 4085

But the advantage you have here, is the chance to converse with folks who have a far higher understanding, than a lot of 'followers' you will find on your average social media platform. The use of social media certainly is easier for you, but a question, why would you wish to advertise on a forum and then direct its followers away to other social media platforms? If you are posting new info daily, then how hard can it be to copy that info onto this thread for example. Over time, this could build a good additional resource for you.......just a thought@Kafmasino


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## ajohn

I noticed mention of a target price of $2500, USD I assume. That would mean probably mean £3000 in the UK and similar increases in much of Europe with VAT etc. If the usual USD to GBP doesn't apply price would still be $3000.

Just what will you offer over a Decent? Why would people buy it rather than a Decent?

TBH when I saw you were basing it on an existing chassis used on a relatively cheap machine I thought you could do a lot better than that price wise.


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## Stevebee

I saw 1,300 Euros mentioned somewhere


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## Rob1

ajohn said:


> I noticed mention of a target price of $2500, USD I assume. That would mean probably mean £3000 in the UK and similar increases in much of Europe with VAT etc. If the usual USD to GBP doesn't apply price would still be $3000.
> 
> Just what will you offer over a Decent? Why would people buy it rather than a Decent?
> 
> TBH when I saw you were basing it on an existing chassis used on a relatively cheap machine I thought you could do a lot better than that price wise.


 I can't see any price mentioned anywhere. And they're in Spain ...


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## ajohn

It's something I found yesterday while looking around about it and may be out of date etc.


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## DavecUK

I think if people are talking about pricing being "seen somewhere"...it needs to be backed up with a link, because it is more than just speculation at that point! Then speculation becomes "fact" and we've all seen narratives created like this before...where suddenly you can't tell fact from fiction. Very different to saying "looking at the machine, I think it will probably cost 1300 zolpeks, or at least that's what I would expect to pay"

*Or simply ask the guys...hey, how much will the Kafmasino ONE cost?*


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## Kafmasino

dfk41 said:


> But the advantage you have here, is the chance to converse with folks who have a far higher understanding, than a lot of 'followers' you will find on your average social media platform. The use of social media certainly is easier for you, but a question, why would you wish to advertise on a forum and then direct its followers away to other social media platforms? If you are posting new info daily, then how hard can it be to copy that info onto this thread for example. Over time, this could build a good additional resource for you.......just a thought@Kafmasino


 We understand your point of view and yes, you are right! We will announce the important information and updates of our development here.

@Steevdee @ajohn @Rob1 @DavecUK We will announce the price once we launch our kickstarter campaign, but we are sure people will like it!!


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## Mrboots2u

There is a long history of coffee machine Kickstarter failures, for those interested worth asking questions on what experience they people have of actually scaling up production to timescales , Seen a lot of these things go wrong when big numbers hits and the projects just fail to get off the group.

Remember ask the right questions , do you due diligence and always remember you are not buying a product that there is no guarantee it will actually get made , especially if it gets tied up in patent , copyright challenges.


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## Dallah

@Mrboots2u gosh. I wonder whose patents or copyrights these folks might be skating perilously close to?


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## Giampiero

About the price, if i remember well, once Decent they began to speak about their project, the price was well below the final one, so at this point it's not the main question at least for me.

Similarity with previous models, is something not really outrageous, if i think about the various "steel cube" on the market, i'm really curious, as always, to see further.


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## ajohn

Dallah said:


> gosh. I wonder whose patents or copyrights these folks might be skating perilously close to?


 There is too much prior art eg Vesuvius to get a meaningful patent on items like this.


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## Mrboots2u

ajohn said:


> There is too much prior art eg Vesuvius to get a meaningful patent on items like this.


 Possibly not on the flow control software and sensors though , which the Vesuvius has nothing to do with, as its purely an e61 pressure profile machine . Not a real time flow , gravimetric one.


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## DavecUK

Mrboots2u said:


> Possibly not on the flow control software and sensors though , which the Vesuvius has nothing to do with, as its purely an e61 pressure profile machine . Not a real time flow , gravimetric one.


 Full of the joys of spring on this one then 🤣. I'm going to get a coffee, my glass is half full...Mr Boots...if your glass is half empty, time for coffee 😜


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## Kafmasino

Hi guys, just a quick update 🤠

We will launch our Kickstarter on the *5th May, 17:00 GMT*

Don't forget to follow our campaign.

Link

*We would like to show you our new video: *


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## Kafmasino

Hi there!,

An update about the project. There is included with *every *Kafmasino One a Kafmasino Smart Scale. We made a video about this topic and also its integration with third party scales.

Check it out:


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## Rob1

I wouldn't be worried about copyright or patent issues at all with the machine, maybe software user interface could be challenged but it's probably all run on open source libraries, maybe the UI could be patented. Can you patent the use of a gravimetric flow and or pressure sensor in a coffee machine? Probably not. To qualify for a patent the invention must not be obvious, and it must be novel. There's nothing novel about pushing hot water through sieve of finely ground coffee and the use of pressure and volumetric sensors is a fairly obvious thing to do if you want to control or measure pressure and flow.


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## malling

It would be hard for anyone to file anything against it, there are more than a couple of handfuls out there that can profile, and also several gravimetric machines.

The price is obviously the make it or brake it point, get too close to a certain unnamed manufacturer and I honestly think it would be a hard sell, as that one is designed from scratch and has a track record.

I think it's the right time to get into it, as the demand cannot be full filled at the moment, especially at lower end where there aren't really any, most machines that actually fit in the home is within a £2500-4000 range. So this has to end below that to get an advantage.


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## Kafmasino

Rob1 said:


> I wouldn't be worried about copyright or patent issues at all with the machine, maybe software user interface could be challenged but it's probably all run on open source libraries, maybe the UI could be patented. Can you patent the use of a gravimetric flow and or pressure sensor in a coffee machine? Probably not. To qualify for a patent the invention must not be obvious, and it must be novel. There's nothing novel about pushing hot water through sieve of finely ground coffee and the use of pressure and volumetric sensors is a fairly obvious thing to do if you want to control or measure pressure and flow.


 We have taken patent issues into account, and there will be no problem with that. The UI may also change when the production version is released.



malling said:


> It would be hard for anyone to file anything against it, there are more than a couple of handfuls out there that can profile, and also several gravimetric machines.
> 
> The price is obviously the make it or brake it point, get too close to a certain unnamed manufacturer and I honestly think it would be a hard sell, as that one is designed from scratch and has a track record.
> 
> I think it's the right time to get into it, as the demand cannot be full filled at the moment, especially at lower end where there aren't really any, most machines that actually fit in the home is within a £2500-4000 range. So this has to end below that to get an advantage.


 The price of the machine will be less than £2500, be sure of that.


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## Kafmasino

Some of you have asked us for a video of an unedited coffee shot, here it is! We will be posting more videos in the coming days:


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## ajohn

Kafmasino said:


> The price of the machine will be less than £2500, be sure of that.


 I'd suspect significantly under that.

My own perspective though is do I want it. It's possible to profile one way or another on a number of machines. I'm not convince that I want the taste it can provide so in real terms people might find that the only appeal is emulating different machines that provide a different taste due to how they brew.

I was "inspired" by a Decent video to try long periods of low shot flow rates. In my case as I could do it with machine settings - 15sec of drips. Their's was much longer. What I found eventually is that the taste effects occurred much sooner so a lot of the drips were pointless. Still not convinced I like the taste - ratio variations have a lot less effect.

Gravimetrics and flow meters. Ok weight is likely to be more accurate but too much shot time variation has it's effects as well. A DIY person is/was looking at installing 4 weight sensors directly activated by the drip tray.  Not sure if the project is on going.

Trying to claim copyright infringement on a UE - TBH I think there would be no chance of it achieving anything other than court cases delaying things. Costs would be high for no return.


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## Kafmasino

ajohn said:


> I'd suspect significantly under that.
> 
> My own perspective though is do I want it. It's possible to profile one way or another on a number of machines. I'm not convince that I want the taste it can provide so in real terms people might find that the only appeal is emulating different machines that provide a different taste due to how they brew.
> 
> I was "inspired" by a Decent video to try long periods of low shot flow rates. In my case as I could do it with machine settings - 15sec of drips. Their's was much longer. What I found eventually is that the taste effects occurred much sooner so a lot of the drips were pointless. Still not convinced I like the taste - ratio variations have a lot less effect.
> 
> Gravimetrics and flow meters. Ok weight is likely to be more accurate but too much shot time variation has it's effects as well. A DIY person is/was looking at installing 4 weight sensors directly activated by the drip tray.  Not sure if the project is on going.
> 
> Trying to claim copyright infringement on a UE - TBH I think there would be no chance of it achieving anything other than court cases delaying things. Costs would be high for no return.


 Precisely for this reason kafmasino is a good option as it allows to play with the different parameters, and also allows the coffee shots to be consistent.
In fact, if you have failed to adjust the grind setting and you have it more coarse or fine than you should, the machine will adjust the pressure/flow automatically and allow you to save some coffee shots.

*New update*

We started this project as a hobby, making modifications to different coffee machines. We added hardware PID and later we started using microcontrollers to modify the behaviour of the pump and to be able to read the different sensors that we integrated, temperature, flow and pressure. During the whole process we did a lot of tests and even made our own DIY scale.

This was only the beginning of our story.

We hope that with your help we can continue to advance.
Thanks for your support on Kickstarter. (We already have more than 110 supporters)


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## Kafmasino

Hi there!

We have uploaded a new video in which Jorge creates an Italian espresso profile with preinfusion while he explains the process and how pressure profiles works. Don't miss it!

Thank you all for your support on Kickstarter, we are already 124 supporters!


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## Kafmasino

Hello everyone!

This time we bring you two videos in which you can see how Kafmasino One pours hot water. From the specific option for it within the application and also from an advanced profile that shows how you can adapt the desired flow at all times.


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## Threebean

Like the idea of adding some digital control and software to get more out the basic machine. Not sure why they are trying so hard to copy the Decent look and feel in their software and website-there's lot's of ways to skin that cat. If the concept works though, it would be cool to see it applied to some quality espresso machine hardware instead - imagine using the LeLit Elizabeth as the underlying platform instead of the Corrima, that would be sweet.


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## Kafmasino

Threebean said:


> Like the idea of adding some digital control and software to get more out the basic machine. Not sure why they are trying so hard to copy the Decent look and feel in their software and website-there's lot's of ways to skin that cat. If the concept works though, it would be cool to see it applied to some quality espresso machine hardware instead - imagine using the LeLit Elizabeth as the underlying platform instead of the Corrima, that would be sweet.


 We have used this machine because of the quality of the components and the space it offers to incorporate our own. 
For example, the thermoblock we use is used by brands such as Jura. The boiler has a capacity of 550ml, is made of stainless steel and is just above the headgroup (so the thermal stability is very good).

We want to give users a reliable advanced machine at an affordable price.

We invite you to check out the simple mode of the app (based on our early designs), shot history, command console and built-in community. Or maybe take a look at our stretch goal, where we plan to integrate artificial intelligence and give the machine the opportunity to learn from the user and create new recipe variations.

This is not the final version, we are constantly updating it and the design may change.


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## Threebean

That's an interesting point about having room inside the enclosure for your modifications.... the Elizabeth is pretty packed in there. Looking forward to see what you can do !


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## Kafmasino

Hi guys!!

Just a quick update, we uploaded a video of our steam.

We are doing some testing using our algorithm with constant dry steam


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## Kafmasino

This afternoon we made a double espresso based on a flow profile, here is the result:


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## 4085

@Kafmasino Sorry if this has already been covered, but, will the machine have a range of built in profiles so if you do not want to 'play' you can still pull a shot?


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## Kafmasino

dfk41 said:


> @Kafmasino Sorry if this has already been covered, but, will the machine have a range of built in profiles so if you do not want to 'play' you can still pull a shot?


 Yes, every machine includes a preset of default profiles. But if you want more profiles, you can go to our built-in community, where everyone can share their profiles, discuss and rate others profiles. Just click on download the profile you want and it will be imported automatically to your tablet(of course you need Wifi connection but is something optional) 👌

Thanks for supporting us!


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## MediumRoastSteam

Any chance you could do a video with the machine steaming milk? And you guys making a nice latte art on a flat white 😉 - interesting to see the capabilities of the machine on that regard.


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## Gav86

This will probably interest... Receive this email from them this evening...


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## Kafmasino

Hi guys,

We just announced the kits and the price!!

*Thank you all for your support on Kickstarter, we are already 189 supporters!*

We thought we should include everything you need in the kit to start making good quality espresso!!
























​


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## 4085

Thats an attractive set of prices......


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## DavecUK

@dfk41 it is....


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## Dallah

Shame the machine is a complete munter though.


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## 4085

@Dallah It does not matter how ugly your wife is, there is always someone else who will appreciate her.........


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## Dallah

@dfk41 I thought we agreed no wife, mother or sister jabs!! ROFLMAO


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## Kafmasino

Hi guys!!

Check out our new video talking about our advanced profiles





[/QUOTE]

We will upload a video steaming milk!! But our latte art is not good enough 😆😅


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## Kafmasino

We have been doing some testing with advanced profiles, using different grind and beans.

Here is a video of a shot 🤠


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## 4085

@Kafmasino In case I have missed it, have you done a video of the machines milk steaming capabilities? Just steam a jug letting us know how much and how long it took. A lot of folks will want a good milk feature and this might help......no need to worry about latte art!


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## Kafmasino

dfk41 said:


> @Kafmasino In case I have missed it, have you done a video of the machines milk steaming capabilities? Just steam a jug letting us know how much and how long it took. A lot of folks will want a good milk feature and this might help......no need to worry about latte art!


 We will record some and upload them during the following days 👌


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## Kafmasino

It's time for a double Italian espresso, we used a pressure-based recipe, check it out 😉


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## Kafmasino

Some of you have asked us for a video steaming milk, here it is! 💨

@dfk41 @MediumRoastSteam


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## Kafmasino

Check out our new video: *The perfect shot*

*Thank you all for your support on Kickstarter, we are already 233 supporters!*


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## Mrboots2u

`these marketing video are fairly pointless, can be edited to show anything

Lets see a shot that you say has a target wright, unedited and how the machine and scales deal with that


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## Mrboots2u

> 2 hours ago, Kafmasino said:
> 
> Some of you have asked us for a video steaming milk, here it is! 💨
> 
> @dfk41 @MediumRoastSteam


 Can you shoot one with as milk thermometer in it so we scan see how long or if s jug gets up to temp


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## Kafmasino

Mrboots2u said:


> `these marketing video are fairly pointless, can be edited to show anything
> 
> Lets see a shot that you say has a target wright, unedited and how the machine and scales deal with that


 We have only two "marketing videos"

We invite you to check all the *9 videos without edit *on our YouTube channel where we show our prototype working with different profiles or if you prefer you can check this thread, because we posted all here.



Mrboots2u said:


> Can you shoot one with as milk thermometer in it so we scan see how long or if s jug gets up to temp


 You can see the difference in the milk before steaming the milk and the result, just check the complete video. We will make another video with a thermometer.


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## MediumRoastSteam

@Kafmasino - I really like what I'm seeing thus far. Looks like you have a great product, and I wish you all the best during your Kickstarter launch and campaign.


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## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @Kafmasino - I really like what I'm seeing thus far. Looks like you have a great product, and I wish you all the best during your Kickstarter launch and campaign.


 Same here, good luck tomorrow.


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## Mrboots2u

Kafmasino said:


> We have only two "marketing videos"
> 
> We invite you to check all the *9 videos without edit *on our YouTube channel where we show our prototype working with different profiles or if you prefer you can check this thread, because we posted all here.
> 
> You can see the difference in the milk before steaming the milk and the result, just check the complete video. We will make another video with a thermometer.


 Hi I was referring to the last video only you made.

Re milk steaming, video shoes how much air you out into jug but not what the temp of it was , just for clarity Helios people understand how long it takes to get it to a good temp ( not filled with air )

Re flow profiling you made reference too, is this function measuring the flow of water into the puck from the group? And is it able to adjust real time. Or is it simply flow into the cup form puck?

It would be good to see a few shots pulled back to back to view the claim of 0.1g accuracy of shots via the scales . ( if this is on your YouTube channel then please repost or link here )

Re tablet and connectivity , how have you circumventived the issues that Decent had with this , ultimately they went for a connected tablet to ensure it met safety features adequately and that hot water wouldn't start randomly pouring from a tablet if not connected.

I know you do not have many prototypes yet but how far down the route are you of CE and other Compliance testing are you with machine you do have , as this will impact the final build of the machine and time scales for full production .

Reminder to all , forum sponsor or no, there is no guarantee when backing an item for Kickstarter's that you will receive the product you are backing and or receive any refund if production is not Able to go ahead.


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## Kafmasino

DavecUK said:


> Same here, good luck tomorrow.





MediumRoastSteam said:


> @Kafmasino - I really like what I'm seeing thus far. Looks like you have a great product, and I wish you all the best during your Kickstarter launch and campaign.


 Thanks so much for your support!! 



Mrboots2u said:


> Hi I was referring to the last video only you made.
> 
> Re milk steaming, video shoes how much air you out into jug but not what the temp of it was , just for clarity Helios people understand how long it takes to get it to a good temp ( not filled with air )
> 
> Re flow profiling you made reference too, is this function measuring the flow of water into the puck from the group? And is it able to adjust real time. Or is it simply flow into the cup form puck?
> 
> It would be good to see a few shots pulled back to back to view the claim of 0.1g accuracy of shots via the scales . ( if this is on your YouTube channel then please repost or link here )
> 
> Re tablet and connectivity , how have you circumventived the issues that Decent had with this , ultimately they went for a connected tablet to ensure it met safety features adequately and that hot water wouldn't start randomly pouring from a tablet if not connected.
> 
> I know you do not have many prototypes yet but how far down the route are you of CE and other Compliance testing are you with machine you do have , as this will impact the final build of the machine and time scales for full production .
> 
> Reminder to all , forum sponsor or no, there is no guarantee when backing an item for Kickstarter's that you will receive the product you are backing and or receive any refund if production is not Able to go ahead.


 Hello,

We are going to make a video of steaming milk with a thermometer to see the temperature during the process. We will also make a video of a shot where the accuracy between the scale and the value set in the profile is shown.

The flow is measured as the water that drives the pump to the puck and is adjusted in real time based on an algorithm (flow profiling consists of that).

Our machine can work with or without a tablet. It is allowed to save a predefined profile and use only the physical buttons without tablet and scale connected. We have never had problems about randomly pouring water if no tablet is connected, you can't compare the electronic problems that two different machines can have when the electronics are not even similar.

The CE/FCC tests have not started yet, but we have a roadmap in which we will go hand in hand with a consultancy in which they will audit all the hardware and check that everything is correct before certifying us. You can check our detailed roadmap in our web: https;//kafmasino.com 

Regards


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## Mrboots2u

Kafmasino said:


> Thanks so much for your support!!
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We are going to make a video of steaming milk with a thermometer to see the temperature during the process. We will also make a video of a shot where the accuracy between the scale and the value set in the profile is shown.
> 
> The flow is measured as the water that drives the pump to the puck and is adjusted in real time based on an algorithm (flow profiling consists of that).
> 
> Our machine can work with or without a tablet. It is allowed to save a predefined profile and use only the physical buttons without tablet and scale connected. We have never had problems about randomly pouring water if no tablet is connected, you can't compare the electronic problems that two different machines can have when the electronics are not even similar.
> 
> The CE/FCC tests have not started yet, but we have a roadmap in which we will go hand in hand with a consultancy in which they will audit all the hardware and check that everything is correct before certifying us. You can check our detailed roadmap in our web: https;//kafmasino.com
> 
> Regards


 Thanks for the replies

Sorry i didnt phrase the tablet question very well. Re Tablet I think the compliance , safety issues was around someone hitting the shot , button on the app, when the tablet concerned is not in the same room .

Re shot weight , please do more than one shot so we can see how consistent it is

Thanks for the replies


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## Kafmasino

Mrboots2u said:


> Thanks for the replies
> 
> Sorry i didnt phrase the tablet question very well. Re Tablet I think the compliance , safety issues was around someone hitting the shot , button on the app, when the tablet concerned is not in the same room .


 During our audit by the consultancy, if they detect that this could be a problem, we will solve it in the optimal way. If it is by means of a direct connection to the machine by cable, avoiding that hot water can be poured, we will have no problem in doing it.


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## Mrboots2u

Kafmasino said:


> During our audit by the consultancy, if they detect that this could be a problem, we will solve it in the optimal way. If it is by means of a direct connection to the machine by cable, avoiding that hot water can be poured, we will have no problem in doing it.


 Thanks, worth addressing at the start tho and it if needs to be tethered tho , you may be in as position where you have to supply a tethered tablet with the Machine , which changes the cost .


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## Mrboots2u

WIth your flow profiling video I can't really see what's tablet and flow is doing or what it was meant to do.

Can you do one where you tell us what you expect the flow to be, show how the shot progresses and achieves that., currently all i can see Is lines on a tablet and I'm not sure what they are for and what they are meant to be doing.


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## Kafmasino

Mrboots2u said:


> WIth your flow profiling video I can't really see what's tablet and flow is doing or what it was meant to do.
> 
> Can you do one where you tell us what you expect the flow to be, show how the shot progresses and achieves that., currently all i can see Is lines on a tablet and I'm not sure what they are for and what they are meant to be doing.


 The flow video shows both at the beginning and during the coffee shot the flow steps to which the machine is adjusting.

We have three lines:



Green for pressure


Blue for flow


Orange for weightrate


If you pay attention to the video and the graphs you can see how the dotted line is the desired flow and the solid line is the actual flow.

If you have more questions about the basic profiles you can watch our video on the youtube channel or in this thread where we talk about the basic profiles.

During the Kickstarter campaign we will continue to upload videos.


----------



## filthynines

Mrboots2u said:


> Thanks for the replies
> 
> Sorry i didnt phrase the tablet question very well. Re Tablet I think the compliance , safety issues was around someone hitting the shot , button on the app, when the tablet concerned is not in the same room .
> 
> Re shot weight , please do more than one shot so we can see how consistent it is
> 
> Thanks for the replies


 From memory I think the concern was raised by a compliance officer who was concerned that a child might grab the tablet, power on the machine, and then turn on the steam wand/group head and douse themselves in boiling water. That led to version 1.3 of the Decent which disabled the "Start Shot" button on the tablet and required a physical touch on the group head to start anything at all.

I agree with @Mrboots2u that it is likely that this same problem will need addressing in the same way before it hits the market.


----------



## Giampiero

I'm sure the Kafmasino brothers are doing their best to accomplish all the phases of this project, but a well done and clear video will make them to save time in more clarifications.

I'm with Mrboots2u when i say that in the posted videos ( Kafmasino videos) is impossible to see ( literally impossible) the graphics displayed by the tablet screen....or maybe i need a new pair of glasses🧐


----------



## DavecUK

What would be nice is a Video of the machine with a close up PIP (Picture in Picture) of the tablet


----------



## Kafmasino

Hi guys,

there are only 24 hours left before our launch on Kickstarter and we have 239 followers, that is amazing!!

We wanted to upload a video showing declining pressure profiling and here it is:






@DavecUK @Giampiero

We will post a video with a close up of the tablet 👍


----------



## YokuSan

Hey guys,

just wanted to make you aware that the Base machine which Kafmasino is selling is not self-developed but a generic chinese machine selling below 250€ for resellers:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Dual-boiler-15-BAR-espresso-coffee_1600232225087.html

I actually like what the two guys are doing. But I do not like that price policy.


----------



## Kafmasino

YokuSan said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> just wanted to make you aware that the Base machine which Kafmasino is selling is not self-developed but a generic chinese machine selling below 250€ for resellers:
> 
> https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Dual-boiler-15-BAR-espresso-coffee_1600232225087.html
> 
> In my opinion, selling such a machine albeit heavily modified for over 1000€ is not exactly fair. Well let's see if people will buy it.
> 
> I actually like what the two guys are doing. But I do not like that price policy.


 You are comparing the price of two machines that are totally different. One is for making traditional coffee, the other is for making coffee with pressure/flow profiling and modifying many other parameters, along with customized software adaptable to tablets and mobiles.
Therefore, it is up to the end user to decide which type of machine he wants to have.

You can buy the base machine at the price you indicate us (which is not the same price we are paying) and make all the necessary modifications and certifications for its sale and thus obtain the final machine we are selling.


----------



## Denis S

And what would you like mate? to sell it at 400 euro so you can afford one?

Let me break it into parts for you and the rest who seems to not understand how business works:

pay for following parts (no payment for labor/rent added):

-machine 250 euro

-electronic board controler + sensors (tempx2, flowmeter, pressure sensor)- 200 euro

- software development and forum, comunity and updates/improvements over the years- 150 euro

- accesories- 80 euro

- CE for the machine completed so they can sell it- a lot, let's say if they sell 100 machines it's 100E per machine to cover that up

- shipping+ packaging+ KS campain- 100 euro

- 8 inch tablet (70euro)

950 euro already, without taking into consideration stuff like labor, rent, defective machines to be replaced (example, machine gets damaged while shipping, so they have to replace it with a new one).

And of course there must be some money made, otherwise who would do it for free?

So let me ask you again, if the price is high, why dont you build a machine like this for 400 euro?

And if that is not enough to convince you, let me ask you one simple and direct question, you open up a KS business and launch a machine similar to this.

Would you risk and do it to have a profit of only 50-200euro per machine?


----------



## YokuSan

Denis S said:


> And what would you like mate? to sell it at 400 euro so you can afford one?
> 
> Let me break it into parts for you and the rest who seems to not understand how business works:
> 
> pay for following parts (no payment for labor/rent added):
> 
> -machine 250 euro
> 
> -electronic board controler + sensors (tempx2, flowmeter, pressure sensor)- 200 euro
> 
> - software development and forum, comunity and updates/improvements over the years- 150 euro
> 
> - accesories- 80 euro
> 
> - CE for the machine completed so they can sell it- a lot, let's say if they sell 100 machines it's 100E per machine to cover that up
> 
> - shipping+ packaging+ KS campain- 100 euro
> 
> - 8 inch tablet (70euro)
> 
> 950 euro already, without taking into consideration stuff like labor, rent, defective machines to be replaced (example, machine gets damaged while shipping, so they have to replace it with a new one).
> 
> And of course there must be some money made, otherwise who would do it for free?
> 
> So let me ask you again, if the price is high, why dont you build a machine like this for 400 euro?


 I think 1000€ as retail price would be more acceptable. Just wanted to let Users know what they buy. They can calculate themselves if this offer is really a bargain or not.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Denis S said:


> And what would you like mate? to sell it at 400 euro so you can afford one?
> 
> Let me break it into parts for you and the rest who seems to not understand how business works:
> 
> pay for following parts (no payment for labor/rent added):
> 
> -machine 250 euro
> 
> -electronic board controler + sensors (tempx2, flowmeter, pressure sensor)- 200 euro
> 
> - software development and forum, comunity and updates/improvements over the years- 150 euro
> 
> - accesories- 80 euro
> 
> - CE for the machine completed so they can sell it- a lot, let's say if they sell 100 machines it's 100E per machine to cover that up
> 
> - shipping+ packaging+ KS campain- 100 euro
> 
> - 8 inch tablet (70euro)
> 
> 950 euro already, without taking into consideration stuff like labor, rent, defective machines to be replaced (example, machine gets damaged while shipping, so they have to replace it with a new one).
> 
> And of course there must be some money made, otherwise who would do it for free?
> 
> So let me ask you again, if the price is high, why dont you build a machine like this for 400 euro?


 If the final price after Kickstarter come in at 1600 euros plus vat to the Uk , then that might put people off a bit .

My concern would be , and ignore the functionality and the profit or not being made , will people be happy at the price for a machine that has the fit and finish of a 200 euro one. ie when they get it out of the box and look at it. Time will tell.

Post Kickstarter lets say 1900 euros to the uk ( £1650 ) , how will its fit and finish and durability compare to other machines , albeit with lesser functionality than that ?

Plus I'd question some of the costs for making bigger runs of a machine but hey ,.70euros for a tablet at cost ?


----------



## Denis S

YokuSan said:


> I think 1000€ as retail price would be more acceptable. Just wanted to let Users know what they buy. They can calculate themselves if this offer is really a bargain or not.


 you are posting the same thing on more forums to throw out some stuff into them. You seem to not be interested in the machine, but to be sure they dont succeed.

At 1000 E price they will be doing a percent of profit that is not sustainable and doesn't cover up the risk that come with doing such stuff.

Imagine importing machines from China, and then something happens, and the cost for shipping goes up x5 times, cause that what happened last year, a 100kg package from China went from 800 euro shipping to 3500euro. Wohoo.

My grandmother told me one, if you dont have anything good to say, it is best most of the time to not say it.

Again, if you do not like the price, you simply dont buy. There is a big gap in the 700-2000 euro segment when it comes to smart espresso machines, machine that can be programmed to do stuff and log data. You dont have to like them or try to even understand them, I owned 3 ito machines (2xRancilio and Isomac) and now owning a Decent. This type of machines are not for everybody, you need to dig into the information and discover stuff. I wish them the best and instead of hijacking this topic so nobody posts anymore, I would say that if you are not interested, or skeptical, let it be and wait for people's feedback if you are interested only in what will be if, or what is the outcome.

I have many examples of people being skeptical or against products before launching and after that they delivered more than what was expected, eg: Niche, G-iota/df64, decent.

The G-iota/DF64 is so popular right now that because of it Hansung/SSP grinding doesnt build full time 98mm burrs for Ultra/Ek because he is producing full time 64mm burrs for Lagom and G-iota.


----------



## YokuSan

Denis S said:


> you are posting the same thing on more forums to throw out some stuff into them. You seem to not be interested in the machine, but to be sure they dont succeed.
> 
> At 1000 E price they will be doing a percent of profit that is not sustainable and doesn't cover up the risk that come with doing such stuff.
> 
> Imagine importing machines from China, and then something happens, and the cost for shipping goes up x5 times, cause that what happened last year, a 100kg package from China went from 800 euro shipping to 3500euro. Wohoo.
> 
> My grandmother told me one, if you dont have anything good to say, it is best most of the time to not say it.
> 
> Again, if you do not like the price, you simply dont buy. There is a big gap in the 700-2000 euro segment when it comes to smart espresso machines, machine that can be programmed to do stuff and log data. You dont have to like them or try to even understand them, I owned 3 ito machines (2xRancilio and Isomac) and now owning a Decent. This type of machines are not for everybody, you need to dig into the information and discover stuff. I wish them the best and instead of hijacking this topic so nobody post anymore, I would say that if you are not interested, or skeptical, let it be and wait for people's feedback if you are interested only in what will be if, or what is the outcome.


 You're wrong. I am interested in this machine. I really like what the guys are doing. But I do not like the price. And that is my opinion. If the machine would be based on something like the Quickmill Silvano, then I would find the price acceptable.

I do not want to argue anymore. I understand your point. I just wanted to share the source of the base machine.


----------



## YokuSan

Denis S said:


> The G-iota/DF64 is so popular right now that because of it Hansung/SSP grinding doesnt build full time 98mm burrs for Ultra/Ek because he is producing full time 64mm burrs for Lagom and G-iota.


 The G-IOTA is so popular because it is so inexpensive for the grind quality and flexibility (with SSP burrs) it delivers. I guess it would not be so popular if it would be sold in the price range of the Lagom.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Via here or Kickstarter people will ask and should ask hard questions around functionality, fit and finish and durability , back up support , and value for money, what financial backing a company has.more so than any other purchase as its a new start up and its on kickstarter.

It can be beneficial for the company to hear these concerns and address them ( themselves ) as there will be a number of people thinking the same thing.


----------



## Giampiero

Before the G-IOTA thread, now this one...i think i will cancel the subscription to netflix😂...sorry guys, i could not resist to an off topic.

Peace love and coffee


----------



## ajohn

Frankly I would like to see some one buy the basic machine for the price that has been mentioned. They wont direct and not from some one who retails the machine either.

In terms of fit and finish if I remember correctly weight wise it looks to be similar to a Gaggia. There is no particular reason for it to be worse.

Personally I think that a lot of comments are from people who wouldn't back a kickstarter anyway. People who do accept the risk. Final price looks fairly sensible to me. It will tempt people off typical middling prosumer gear if they want this sort of thing. Another Decent would just be that and wont due to price which like many of the items they brand are IMHO OTT for what they are. Maybe the machine isn't but .............. Actually that sort of approach isn't that unusual in the espresso area.

So a backers decisions on this Kickstarter depend on risk. Savings eventually if the machines do appear, function as they should and not just be a flash in the pan that disappear rapidly. I'm not sure that stacks up well going on the figures that have been posted. Have to wait and see. Kickstarters can stumble even at this stage.

A link was posted somewhere to a retailer that sold these machines in their basic form along with a full set of spares for them.  Not a UK one obviously but it does mean that these items can be available.


----------



## Roko

I understand those who have concerns - and I said myself that I will be interested only when it's not on Kickstarter anymore, because I don't feel safe "buying" there - but I really don't get those who say "the machine should cost X".. I mean, go on Alibaba, order that machine, order the tablet, order all of the components, then do all of the work required to "smartify" the machine, and let's see if then you feel like questioning the price.

If you don't like the product say it, and say it loudly. But I don't think it's fair to do (half-assed) calculations of profit margins and claiming the product should cost less based on those.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Every one is entitled to air a view - right or wrong. We need to be tolerant and nice. I hope certain comments do not discourage or scare some away.

@Kafmasino - Good luck guys with your initiative.


----------



## 4085

Why do we not just wait and see? If you are not potentially in the market for one, then time will tell if you are right or wrong


----------



## Kafmasino

Hi guys,

as some of you asked, we recorded a video with a close up to the tablet.

We have been testing a new algorithm to have a smooth transition from steps, in this case a flow to pressure test.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Kickstarter has gone live, snippet here re the value of machine and software and how vat will be applied at import .

VAT and import duties will be applied to the espresso machine hardware at the time of shipment, the declared value of which is: 550 EUROS. The espresso machine software is shipped via the Internet and will not be part of the shipment. Depending on your country's tax laws, you may have to declare VAT to your government for downloading the espresso machine software. Two invoices will be generated, one for the amount of the espresso machine and one for the amount of the value of the software.


----------



## Stevebee

Even that is the same as Decent! Wonder where they get their inspiration from 😂


----------



## malling

YokuSan said:


> The G-IOTA is so popular because it is so inexpensive for the grind quality and flexibility (with SSP burrs) it delivers. I guess it would not be so popular if it would be sold in the price range of the Lagom.


 You cannot really compare those two things.

What needs to be noted is that manufacturers need to have at least a 20% profit margin on machines, many run with 50% to cover R&D, insurance, labour, marketing etc. and to generate profit. especially smaller companies cannot run with low margins as they unlike larger corporations dos not have the option to make products with no profit or with a loss, to get people into an ecosystem, so it quite common to see them run with 50% margin.

let's say they can make this machine for €800, Charging €1000 would be a very small profit margin, a realistic price that would make it more sustainable would be closer to €1600.

I'm not going to say whether or not this will be worth the investment, but more that you're idea is somewhat unrealistic.


----------



## ajohn

If the machine is exported from the EU to the UK it's value means that it can be sent local VAT free and duty will be collected here prior to delivery. Might pay to bear that in mind if it's possible for a start up to do that. USA and elsewhere same.

From places out of the EU UPS shipping charges included tax handling. Not sure how that works now but can's see why that should change. In fact it worked a week and a half ago for me with something from the USA. The risk sending it with the USA's domestic carrier USPS handled by RM or PF here was paying vat again. I'd need to prove I had paid it - tricky.

Snipe comment very Decent selling software separately 🤣 why do you think Decent do it this way. Upgrades for one are easier and any future software maintenance.

Need to buy a tablet - not looked at them recently but model levels vary. Which level does the software need? These can be bought locally everywhere. I see that as a good point really.


----------



## Rob1

I'm sure everyone who downloads the software will report it to HMRC


----------



## ajohn

The bare bones kickstarter offers are gone - all 10. TBH I doubt if the sort of person who may want this machine would have much interest in the extras they offer on the others.

🤣 I hardly steam milk and have more pitchers than I need but one is the right size. Tampers don't ask me  I bought another recently but unlike a Decent one I do feel I have obtained something more worth it's price. I'm perfectly capable of recognising China's latest cheap tamper parts also other bits and pieces from the same source.


----------



## gus6464

The fact that this machine is based on an off the shelf offering and then heavily modified for it's intended use is actually a good thing. This means that is has a very high chance of actually releasing on time and getting to market.


----------



## Rob1

Christ, looking at the comments they've got people really don't understand how to read through the specs.


----------



## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> Christ, looking at the comments they've got people really don't understand how to read through the specs.


 It's a tough old world.....


----------



## Roko

Of the 200+ supporters, not many have gone for it for now. The price for the first ten slots was very interesting and there's still 16 slots for the 1250 EUR price, but once that's filled it gets to 1350 EUR. The more time passes, the more people will get doubts.

For sure it's not been an overnight hit, but let's hope it gets some more backing. I hope so.


----------



## ajohn

It's not that easy to get at all the rules on Kickstarter but my impression is that the money collected goes to the project even if it doesn't meet it's goal.  I'm not looking again, others can.

I find their approach "interesting" compared with Niche and some others that did succeed. @DavecUK may know how much of their own money they put in but comments suggest it wasn't trivial. Far from it. I suspect they couldn't produce what they ended up with without significant prototyping to be sure it would work as intended so kickstarter was more concerned with upscaling numbers really and some small changes to the original design from early grinders that were supplied to people. I bought in relatively late so didn't save as much as some. 🤣 oh yeh- grinders are simple. They are not.


----------



## 4085

@ajohn Think I readvsomewhere that the funds are now not passed accross unless the offer is fulfilled, whereas at one time, if they did not reach target you lost your money


----------



## ajohn

@dfk41 I'm not sure. The rules are scattered around a bit. Your probably right which means that great care is needed on just what to offer when a campaign is started.


----------



## Rob1

If the goal is met the project gets the funding, if it isn't the funds are returned to backers.


----------



## filthynines

I think there's a near-zero chance this funds now. 90% to go in a handful of days.


----------



## Roko

filthynines said:


> I think there's a near-zero chance this funds now. 90% to go in a handful of days.


 Well, the founders have gone pretty quiet. There were 18 backers on day one, this has reduced to 15 or so today.

It's a pity but perhaps a lesson to be learned that testing, reviews, prototypes (and not deep discounts) are a mandatory thing to do in order to convince people to back up a KS campaign.

I wish them all the best if they want to retry this later on, but IMO at least a couple units need to be sent for independent reviews and testing.


----------



## Rob1

I think the main problem is it looks hacked together. Everything makes it look like a prototype or proof of concept. Even the scales, despite being custom made, have no been manufactured to fit the drip tray properly and has to sit sideways on. If they had done little things like get a recession made in the drip tray with a set of scales to slot inside it would have made it look much less like they'd just taken a random machine and modified it. But then you've still got a weird useless circular display (it was a PID display and appears to have been hacked into a timer but it's completely unnecessary as you've got the tablet running profiles) and a generic form factor.

It's as if it would be better marketed and sold as a kit that you can use to replace electronics in any vibe pump espresso machine to get the full temp control, flow and pressure profiling they're offering, but such kits would be a lot of work to fit and they'd be better off charging a service fee for people to ship machines to them for modification......but then that's going to be even more expensive so instead of doing that they've gone for modding a generic unbranded base machine and they're trying to sell the whole thing.


----------



## 4085

Perhaps they were just using Kickstarter with a view to doing the selling on their own website, just using the facility as it were


----------



## DavecUK

dfk41 said:


> Perhaps they were just using Kickstarter with a view to doing the selling on their own website, just using the facility as it were


 A bit like Dragons Den


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> A bit like Dragons Den


 Maybe they should visit them for backing. They'd have just as much luck as kickstarter.

Me thinks they need to think more about capitol needed and what they offer to backers. After all 2 years work so far so I would expect them to need money for funding a number of machines - bargains for backers and little to no monetary gain for them.


----------



## DavecUK

@ajohn I think they have a business, just need to approach it differently.


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> @ajohn I think they have a business, just need to approach it differently.


 That's what I think too providing the price is suitable.  They don't need capitol though  just capital which in part is what kickstarter is for. £116,000 sounds to much to me to get a limited number of machines out and in use. Those users may well find things that have to be fixed. Risk to save ~£500 off retail price and offering bits and pieces that a buyer probably already has. Almost like selling to first time users. All most people would want is a portafilter and a set of baskets.

Software it seems is functional. In some ways the cost of that has already been carried by them also basic development of the machine itself. I'm inclined to think that the time to profit on that comes later when people want the machine and it's more available. If it never gets to that state - well that's life on a project like this.

They have been too ambitious in my view. It's too one sided and not towards the buyer. I can see that it's tricky to get this sort of thing up and running as a true business though and also can't be sure about their costs when one is produced. Going on software costs mentioned it seems to be relatively low. Decent really should be a pretty simple competitor to take some business off. Maybe there's wont be quite so good but that needn't really be a problem. £ notes count.

Me and profiling though. In the extreme I don't like what it does to taste.


----------



## filthynines

I once read an article by somebody (possibly Seth Godin) that basically said: Kickstarter is not for starting projects, it's for finishing them.

In other words: if you have a following you can successfully execute a crowdfunder. But if you're trying to gain the following and the traction from the crowdfunding effort itself then you're onto a loser. Without seeing stats I think there's a lot to be said for that.

This project is a very big risk for any backer. It doesn't help that I suspect lockdown led many to take the plunge on their first proper espresso machine or their next big upgrade, and the market is now largely satisfied. Obviously those with premium products can still win customers, but not a great time for a newcomer. Then again, when is there a good time for a new business?


----------



## ajohn

They were looking for ~£10,000 for the first 10 machines for 28% discount.

They then seem to expect the total goal to be achieved via less discount and another 100 machines. Then barista kits for a machine some one doesn't have.

I suspect that if they had stuck to just 10 machines and a much more significant saving they may have succeeded. Maybe 20, depends on how many they can handle. It depends on what 10 or 20 would actually cost.

Maybe they intended to have the machines factory built in China all 110 of them in one go. Circuit boards may be a problem in low numbers. Parts are needed and a pick and place machine set up. 10 boards isn't a lot for on of those but the data that they need is available when the board is designed. Assembly - well that is generally done by hand so in some ways quantity isn't a factor other than rate and number of people needed.


----------



## filthynines

John at Decent has been saying for a long time that post-Covid manufacturing of anything has been a pain. QC has been hugely challenging - the stuff they've rejected would fill a landfill in itself. If you're not an experienced manufacturer (or extremely well-funded) it sounds like it's a nightmare.


----------



## ajohn

Not what I have heard. Covid interfered with supply so that created a backlog in China and elsewhere. It takes time to get ahead again. Also sales at the other end up and down making even ordering tricky. I suspect some importers thought best not bother - Sage for instance is out of stock of all sorts. It's strange their machines have been generally available but no idea of numbers they stock here.


----------



## filthynines

I would imagine what is heard by different people depends largely on what parts they're after. Decent are getting bespoke stuff made and rejecting swathes of it as being unfit for purpose or cosmetically poor.


----------



## 4085

@filthynines Sounds like another Sage product to me....not meant to be fixed, buy another one


----------



## ajohn

dfk41 said:


> @filthynines Sounds like another Sage product to me....not meant to be fixed, buy another one


 LOL


----------



## Mrboots2u

DavecUK said:


> @ajohn I think they have a business, just need to approach it differently.


 Well if you can only get 13 backers not so much of a business at the moment.

From the outside I'd say a couple of things.

Even at discount it feels like a lot to pay for a machine that has the fit and finish of a sub 400 euro machine. It can do a lot but people still have to engage with the design a little , it just look like an off shelf machine ( which it is )

Price is again a difficulty , it seems to have functionality of a decent but at a third of the price , where is the catch ?

Difference to decent is , that they write software but also assemble hardware , gives perhaps a little more confidence in repair.

I'm not sure the videos they had were really of the level to convince me at least that it did what it did. I want to know what the profile is meant to be , see it live on tablet , show me its delivered.

You would get more traction If they were a few machines out there being looked at by people , they need to take the risk and investment to make these and potentially then reap some good r and d from user feedback .


----------



## Mrboots2u

filthynines said:


> I once read an article by somebody (possibly Seth Godin) that basically said: Kickstarter is not for starting projects, it's for finishing them.
> 
> In other words: if you have a following you can successfully execute a crowdfunder. But if you're trying to gain the following and the traction from the crowdfunding effort itself then you're onto a loser. Without seeing stats I think there's a lot to be said for that.
> 
> This project is a very big risk for any backer. It doesn't help that I suspect lockdown led many to take the plunge on their first proper espresso machine or their next big upgrade, and the market is now largely satisfied. Obviously those with premium products can still win customers, but not a great time for a newcomer. Then again, when is there a good time for a new business?


 I think if your product Is good enough , niche enough and or great value etc etc then timing doesn't come into a great deal.


----------



## 4085

@Mrboots2u If you did not know what the Decent was capable of, what price would you put on that then Boots?


----------



## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> @Mrboots2u If you did not know what the Decent was capable of, what price would you put on that then Boots?


 Dunno tbh , I presume you are referring to fit and finish and perceived value ?

Decent charges the same software/hardware equation i guess for tax purposes.

As its designed from scratch Id probably value it a bit more but its not that market , decent exists , comparisons will be made.


----------



## 4085

@Mrboots2u I really meant that you judge it in the same way was you did with the Kafa. I quite agree with you by the way. I think the decent looks like a £399 machine and the Kafa a bit less.


----------



## filthynines

dfk41 said:


> @filthynines Sounds like another Sage product to me....not meant to be fixed, buy another one


 The Decent machines? Well they do list every part they use as a spare that can be purchased, so hopefully a little better than Sage&#8230;


----------



## DavecUK

Mrboots2u said:


> Well if you can only get 13 backers not so much of a business at the moment.


 My comment was that they do have a business, just not the one they think. If they are smart, Kickstarter has given them some exposure.....they now need to think smaller and be a bit more fleet of foot. In fact they have 2 potential businesses.

1. The Kafmasino but built in smaller bespoke quantities

2. The kit to convert a machine (bit like Mr Shades Does With Gaggias)

The kit can be something that's been tested and approved for various machines with instructions...even Kit A, B C etc.. for covering a wider range of machines.

I'd love to see them make something and/or a kit. I think all competition in the market improves things for us all.


----------



## Kafmasino




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## DavecUK

@Kafmasino I feel sure your journey is just beginning and I'm glad you're not giving up. I love to see to a new business succeed, as I am sure you will.


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## Stevebee

You were the Felicita v Acaia and it never say comfortably with me. I know the patent laws are flimsy but it felt you sailed very close to the wind. Ironically some of the ideas you had were welcomed by the Decent community so I wish you luck with your future endeavours


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## Rincewind

Holy machine resurrection Batman; back that ass up


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