# The importance of agitation. Or just grind finer?



## AJP80 (Feb 29, 2020)

Just wondering if anyone else on the forum using an automatic brewer finds the output much weaker/ more delicate compared with manual pour over at the same ratio (my automatic is a Sage Precision Brewer and for manual I use a V60; typical ratio is 30g/500ml)?

Could this be due to the lack of agitation of the slurry (the flow from the shower head is very gentle, even with the flow rate maxed)?

If others have experienced similar, is there a solution that doesn't involve manual intervention in the brew or significantly up dosing (I'm reluctant to increase the ratio of coffee to water significantly as I feel like it shouldn't be necessary / it feels wasteful)?

Might grinding finer for the automatic help? (Although I note my automatic brew times are already double those of my V60 brews at 4 mins as a result of how fine I'm grinding). I've also maxed the temperature on the Sage at 98C, so can't go hotter.

Thanks in advance.

Andy


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

There shouldn't be any significant difference in strength between auto & manual brews. Manual brews may be more prone to silt/heavier mouthfeel, but there is probably a lot of overlap.

Agitation should be being controlled by the brewer (number & size/timing of pulses/water delivery).

Historically, auto drip grind has been finer than manual drip grind (but most folk brew manual with a finer grind than originally specified).

Brew time will depend more on water delivery time, than extraction (you're saying time is long, but brews are weak, so this bears out).

I'd go finer in the first instance, look out for siltier brews & go back a tad coarser if this happens. Maybe try making slightly larger brews if a less silty grind size causes under-extraction.

60g/L is a commonly used ratio, not a 'standard', don't worry about using a slightly higher dose if you want, another 2-3g of coffee per 500ml brew is no biggy, compared to making a disappointing 30:500g brew. Anywhere between 55g/L for darker roasts up to 70g/L for lighter could be typical.


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## AJP80 (Feb 29, 2020)

Many thanks Mark. I think, as SM is probably on the lighter side of roast profiles, I'll try updosing to 70g/ l. As you say, it'll be worth it if it delivers a tastier brew. If that's not enough, I'll have a play with the grind size.

Best wishes

Andy


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## AJP80 (Feb 29, 2020)

So updosing to 70g/litre and grinding finer both helped move things in the right direction, but not by nearly enough. I'm now brewing with a grind about 180 degrees finer on the EK43S dial compared with V60 pour over. That is huge!

I took some measurements. Flow on the Sage is much higher than with my gooseneck kettle, at about 7.5ml a second, and draw down is slow (as you'd expect from the fine grind) giving a total brew time of about 4 to 5 minutes for 1/2 litre input. This is not ideal but probably nothing to worry about.

Brewing Temperature, on the other hand, was very low. With the Sage PID set at 98C and filling a preheated vessel from the Sage shower head gave a final full vessel temp in the low 80s. Filling the same vessel as close as I could to the flow rate of the Sage from my gooseneck kettle with a starting temp of 98C (per the kettle's thermometer) gave a final full vessel temp of 94C. Whilst my measurements are not accurate in absolute terms, owing to the rather crude method, what this does tell me with reasonable accuracy is that the temperature of the water hitting the slurry is about 10C cooler in the Sage vs the V60 (I brew off the boil with V60).

My thoughts are that this temperature difference goes along way to explain my experiences brewing with the Sage vs V60.


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## AJP80 (Feb 29, 2020)

I should add that I've ordered some descaler. There must be a problem with my Sage as I can't believe it is designed to brew at such low temps. My brew water has a TDS of 150 +/-, so that might be a cause.


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## AJP80 (Feb 29, 2020)

I've learnt quite a lot about brewing using the Sage over the last 3 or 4 months but one of the most interesting things for me is to do with brew temperature. You can brew coffee across a wide range of brew temperatures but it has a noticeable affect on the taste. I've found I prefer brewing lighter roasts with a starting temp on the lower side (albeit not as low as the Sage's output) and using a finer grind (about 80 to 90 degrees finer on the EK). This gives a much sweeter cup (perhaps too sweet with some beans/ roasts) compared to brewing off the boil with a coarser grind, whilst minimising bitterness.

My starting temp in the gooseneck kettle is now about 96C, so it's a long way from off the boil (a good few minutes with the lid on), and I probably lose about 4C on the drop from gooseneck to slurry so I'm brewing in the very low 90s/ high 80s (before taking into account heat lost to the coffee/ slurry).


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Using a Chemex, struggle to get the slurry temperature above 90c and that's for the final fourth pour. Setting the Brewista kettle to 96c, the slurry temp after the first pour is 87/88c and doesn't get above 90c until the final pour. I've brewed with water from the Brewista set at 92c and concluded, after checking EY via refraction, that a higher water temp was the way to go for me taste-wise.


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## AJP80 (Feb 29, 2020)

For me there's definitely a point below which flavour (as a possible proxy for extraction?) drops away too much and what I'm left with is too weak and watery i.e where my Sage is at now.

When you say a higher temperature works for you taste-wise, is that the 96C on the brewista, or do you go higher?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Not sure the reading on the Brewista is that accurate - have it set to 96c in order to get a temperature in the slurry of 90c. If I set the Brewista for 92c - the temperature in the slurry will not rise much above 88c which is too low IMO.


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