# Pulling my first shots - help! Part 2



## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Following on from the original thread I found a cup which would fit under the PF when on my scales.

So, I put the IMS shower screen back in and the 18g VST in the PF.

Then by testing I gradually got down to 17g in the basket without the screw in the IMS showing on the dry puck. The grind was not changed from the previous "Gaggia parts" tests which had produced reasonable tasting results. But when I tried a brew there was hardly any flow after about 50 secs!

So I then did a coarser grind, the same 17g dose and this produced 36g in about 15 secs, taste was bitter.

Tightened grind and this produced 37g in about 24 secs but the taste was even more bitter!!

Tightened it further and then produced 38g in about 46 secs. The taste was the best so far but still a little bitter.

Having done quite a bit of reading on the various coffee forums, bitterness can be both over and under extraction, so what should I change next?

Also when adjusting grind on the SJ how much should I move the adjust ring for each test?

Richard


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Should of added that the beans are a medium roast Colombian Meddellin Supremo and are about 12 to14 days old.

This is a picture of the extract puck after the last pull. You can see the indentation of the shower screen screw. Do you think I'm still overdosing?


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## NateChat (Aug 24, 2015)

Very small adjustments on SJ from my experience with it. Less than one notch


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

when dialling in, don't forget to purge a little extra otherwise you are potentially getting some of the last "adjustment" in your portafilter. How much depends on how much retention you are getting and if not enough you will end up chasing a false taste (or at least one biased by the last grind)

Hope of help and worth it to waste a sacrificial couple of grams here than bin 17g at a time for an unpleasant cup

John


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I would suggest perhaps the coffee is past " medium " what's its taste like brewed ?


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> I would suggest perhaps the coffee is past " medium " what's its taste like brewed ?


At the moment it's too bitter as I said.

When I got a reasonable shot out of the 'Gaggia parts' the taste was full bodied and clean with no major after taste. Unfortunately I'm not very good at describing flavours/tastes.

Need some advice as to what to do next?

Richard


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Any help out there please!!

Richard


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

There's lots of threads on the forum on weighing, dosing etc and how to get the best out of your equipment, it might even be the beans.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

As above lots of posts on how to dial in, here's a good starting place

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22879-Beginners-Reading-Weighing-Espresso-Brew-Ratios

I've not read your other thread sorry, however if it were me I'd think you're over extracting, go back to basics

1. drop your brew ratio down to 1:2 17g > 34g

2. adjust 1 thing only at a time starting with grind setting until you get something that's tasting the best it can at 1:2

3. when you get it tasting as good as you can by changing grind setting, tweak your ratio slightly, try 32g and 36g, which tastes best? try 30g and 38g if needed, or try smaller steps e.g. 1g change, rince repeat and narrow in. don't forget 34g might taste the best....

don't worry about the time it takes, anything that's between 15-45s can be good


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Questions- just or get a general picture of where we are .

- Are you making espresso to drink as espresso or milk based drinks ?

Are your tasting notes based on it being tasted as espresso ?

Do you like espresso ( on its own no milk ? )

Have you brewed it as suggested ?

Does your machine have a pid , if not what's your temp surfing regime ?

Have you tried adding a dash of water to your shot , just to make sure that " strength " and bitterness are not being mixed up ?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Looks much darker than medium


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Questions- just or get a general picture of where we are .
> 
> - Are you making espresso to drink as espresso or milk based drinks ?
> 
> ...


1. Making espresso to drink as espresso. But it would also be the base for milk added drinks once dialled in.

2. We are tasting the shot as pulled.

3. Yes

4. Aiming for a brew ration of 1:2 dosing at 17g in the VST basket

5. No PID. Machine warm-up at least 20 mins. Between test shots at least 10 mins. Flick steam switch on for a couple of secs when brewing.

6. No. But I have my wife tasting too.

Richard


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

RichD1 said:


> 1. Making espresso to drink as espresso. But it would also be the base for milk added drinks once dialled in.
> 
> 2. We are tasting the shot as pulled.
> 
> ...


Are you stirring before you taste?

There's an article on gaggia temp surfing. Basically I pull water through the group head until the light goes off. Then put the prepped PF in, wait for the light to come back on. I'm probably doing it all wrong though.

Definitely worth adding hot water and tasting too.


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

No I didn't stir, but I am splitting it into two cups as I have sugar and my wife doesn't. We then compare tastes.

I've used @Mrboots2u articles as defining the brewing process I use and now that I can weight the output I should be able to get something reasonable. But I'm struggling to workout what I should do next. I'm not sure whether I'm over or under extracting.

My instinct is to try a slightly coarser grind and try and switch off the brew switch earlier to achieve the 34g output. Unfortunately I've almost used 250g of beans and will have to start on a new pack which is a different roast!!!

Just to confirm, should the liquid start to drip from the PF within about 50% of the total time. i.e. if aiming for 30 secs then liquid should appear within 12 to 15 secs or is this too long. Does this start time also indicate what needs adjusting?

Richard


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

change the ratio go to 1:3

and brew it as suggested


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

So you're suggesting not to alter grind but using the 17g dose but let the brew extract for 51 secs? Can you confirm the logic behind this so hopefully I can understand what is going on.

Richard


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

you're going to use more beans to begin with until you understand the dial in process and learn the techniques you need to, don't worry you'll get a lot better at it with practice.

you're not aiming for a time, you're aiming for a yield weight which tastes good, the time can vary between cups even when you keep everything else the same.

how long it takes for the coffee to start flowing and how long it takes to get the weight you want will mostly be controlled by how coarse or fine you grind the beans, this is going to be dependent on the bean you use so it's hard to say if it's right or not, however 15 seconds is quite a long time, I'm struggling to think of anything I've had which would take that long to come through.

make a note of the settings you're using, you can always order another bag of the same bean and pick up where you left off if you run out.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

RichD1 said:


> So you're suggesting not to alter grind but using the 17g dose but let the brew extract for 51 secs? Can you confirm the logic behind this so hopefully I can understand what is going on.
> 
> Richard


Change the ratio to 1:3 ish , in a nominal time 25-45 seconds . You are unlikely to be under extracting as this ratio.

Taste is not linear you may be able to push through bitterness to sweetness by increasing the brew ratio , as I have suggested . @MWJB

I think the coffee you are using is potentially beyond what I would call Medium , hence suggestion to brew . If you are using sugar and its still bitter , then I think the coffee roast may be coming into play also .


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

@Mrboots2u For my next tests.

I decided to reduce the dose to 16g as there was an impression of the shower screen screw in my previous 17g pull.

Slackened the SJ by one segment of the knurl on the adjust ring. Filled the basket with 16g of grounds, I then swirled the grounds round with a small piece of wire to break up any clumps etc. (had read about this on a barista website, is this called WDT method) then tamped with reasonable pressure.

Classic had been on for about 30 minutes, hit brew switch, liquid took about 15 secs to start dribbling and I switched it off after 33g had been produced. This took 51 secs. I stopped it before I got any where near the 1:3 ratio as I thought this would have been far too long a brew time. Or is it OK to leave brewing until it turns blonde?

I stirred the liquid in the cup and then divided it into 2 espresso cups. Added sugar to both and then added an equal amount of water to one of them. Let cool and tasted.

The watered one lacked any body but was not bitter. The undiluted was a lot better and though it seemed to taste bitter it did not stay in the palate like the previous attempts. It was drinkable.

Any advice on where I should go next? Should I have left the brew on until I reached the 1:3 ratio which would probably have taken 60 to 70secs.

When I took the PF off for knocking out I saw there was a hole in the surface of the puck. Is this to be expected? Also noticed that there were a few grounds at the bottom of the cup used to brew into. Again is this a problem?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Reading the above, tighten the grind, as little as you can then try again, dont get hung up on tamp pressure, a light firm tamp is plenty.

When I had a classic I aimed for 8-10 seconds for first dribbles, then aiming for 30-40 seconds to kill the pump with an output of around 35g out.

Of course this is all depending on beans, I agree that the roast does look darker than medium, where are the beans from?

Espresso always tasted a little bitter to me, everyone has different tastes, I preferred a long black if drinking without milk.

One other area to think about is temp of the water, surfing on the classic is a fine art,get it wrong and you are gonna get sour or bitter, have you thought about fitting a pid, Mr shades of this forum offers a great package!


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

@froggystyle

What's the reasoning to tighten the grind?

With it taking so long to brew I would have thought that I would need to slacken the grind a bit further. I give the basket a firm tamp but not what I would call excessive.

In your brew recipe, what is your dose size?

Richard


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

If its not got to 35-36g output weight in 51 sec then I'd slacken off. Apart from that keep everything else the same and report back.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Training

Training

Training


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

It sounds like you're grinding too fine. I have no idea how much you're adjusting the grinder when you say you went coarser and finer, so you might be over doing it in both directions. You can grind so fine it slows the shot down, the go a little coarser and have it run too fast (because of channeling), then go a little coarser again and get a slower shot. Of course this advice depends both on your perception of bitterness and the flavour of the beans (they could just be bitter). How have they been stored?

My advice would be to aim for a set brew of 18g in and 36g out (for example). Dose the same each time and start with a grind you know by sight and touch is slightly too coarse and adjust finer from there.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

RichD1 said:


> @Mrboots2u For my next tests.
> 
> I decided to reduce the dose to 16g as there was an impression of the shower screen screw in my previous 17g pull.
> 
> ...


Your doses are 16.0g exactly?

Perhaps taste, then add sugar? You have to enjoy the coffee and if that means having it with sugar, fine, but for diagnostic purposes it could be masking other issues.

I suspect you need to coarsen up a little. If you are brewing to a ratio, you should be hitting that ratio, as then you have at least a consistent parameter to work from.


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

I'm adjusting the grind either way by one groove of the knurls around the top ring of the SJ for each test shot.

Will try a slightly slacker grind tomorrow using the 16g dose (using scales) with a target of 32g.

Richard


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