# Double boiler basket sizes



## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

As title, does anyone know what the doses are for these? I cant find any info on them apart from 1 cup / 2 cup :/

I run 18g on the double, but even 10g on the single doesnt seem to tamp very well leaving a soggy puck.

Thanks

Craig


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Singles are horrid to use , and best advised to avoid .

How does the coffee taste though from the single , soggy puck dontt matter if the coffee tastes good. Your making coffee not pucks


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Singles are horrid to use , and best advised to avoid .
> 
> How does the coffee taste though from the single , soggy puck dontt matter if the coffee tastes good. Your making coffee not pucks


it's not terrible, but a bit inconsistent, I find 18g in 40 ish out on the double basket a tad strong, that being said, I have a lot to learn and overcoming to cost of everything so i can get some training


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

craigsalisbury said:


> it's not terrible, but a bit inconsistent, I find 18g in 40 ish out on the double basket a tad strong, that being said, I have a lot to learn and overcoming to cost of everything so i can get some training


Pull your shot longer then 18> 45

or if you dont want that much coffee , reduce the dose increase the brew ratio 16> 35-45


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

yeah im wondering to play with the grind for a faster flow vs extend the time? thoughts? im sure this has been covered extensively lol


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

craigsalisbury said:


> yeah im wondering to play with the grind for a faster flow vs extend the time? thoughts? im sure this has been covered extensively lol


Could do , easiest thing to try is just keep grind the same and dilute a little more , if that isnt to your taste then change grind .


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

that's an experiment for tomorrow, tonight is all about the wine









Thanks for the advice


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

If the "single wall single" shot basket looks like the sketch in the manual it's either a 12g or 14g basket. I'd guess that they will have used a 12g size for it or at least some size over the usual E61 single. The single double wall pressurised basket has the sort of shape that a 7g E61 basket would have.

The basket sizes that sell on commercial machines are 7, 12 and 14g.There is also a low single produced, 6g and something like a treble 21g or so.

The heights of the different sizes of basket varies according to the make of the machine but typically shapes will be similar to these, I happened to have a link to the page but what ever machine they all generally have similar shapes at the same size.

http://www.imsfiltri.com/risultati-ricerca/?competition=0&post_type=i-filtri&comp=fracino&type=0&Capienza=0&submit=Search&lang=en

The 7g in that range will hold just short of 9g maximum in practice. The Sage small machine single baskets can hold over 9g. They say 10 max and I may have reached that at finer grinds with some beans.

The dual wall single looks like it may have a smaller capacity going on the sketch.







I put my grinds into one by mistake. While they are intended for preground there isn't really any reason why they shouldn't be used with ground fresh roasted bean. This type of basket tends to over ride the brew pressure, flow and time etc rather than it being purely set by the grinding and fill. When I filled one by mistake it still produced a decent drink.

What this area is all about really is that the important aspect is your taste needs and meeting that. The results will also depend on the bean that is used.

John

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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Thanks for the info @ajohn, I guess the single is 12-14 as with 10 the tamper hits the shoulder of the basket and doesn't allow the puck to be compressed. The height of both baskets is 23mm with the OD of the double at 60mm so i guess I can just use VST replacements (if there is any real reason to)

Quotes about pictures and many words....


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The single is that same style of design as on their smaller machines that use 53mm tampers. Your use a 58mm one. The o/all height of the 53mm ones is about 21mm.

Personally I feel that other sizes over what Sage provide are needed otherwise in my case I have to not use a bean or seriously under fill the double. That results in wet mess in the basket so no good for making several drinks on the trot. I've also tried one bean where I would have liked to try a finer grind in a smaller basket.

VST seem to only make larger sizes of basket other than a 7g which is ridged. The ridges are part way down the side and stick out. Might make it difficult to get it in and out of your portafilter. IMS Competition baskets are popular. With both though the actual capacity on a particular machine can vary down to how much the shower screen projects into the filter basket.

John

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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

I agree, i need a basket for 9g single. I dont want to have to always use 18g, i just need to find whats available, I know VST make 15/18/20 but who makes something smaller without ridges i dont know.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I suspect that your best option for a smaller basket is IMS. They are about listed as 7g and 6 to 9g, The 6 to 9 is a competition basket and actual max capacity will depend on the machine it's fitted to. They are listed for E61 machines on some sites - that should be your size but manufacturers have a habit of using different top rim diameters.

A cheap option to try might be the Gaggia 7g listed on amazon complete with physical sizes so you could check if it will fit. The seller also lists the capacity in ml so you could compare with the Sage single by taping over the perforations, filling with water and weighing. This basket is ridged in a different way to many others.

John

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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

I think i'll give IMS a call, the 7 and 6-9 are taller, but i don't see that as a problem as they are tapered. I checked amazon and the only one i could find didnt have good reviews. this whole better coffee malarkey is a huge learning curve lol


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

This one

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Replacement-Portafilter-Basket-Espresso-Machines/dp/B071G2WSHX/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1514321249&sr=8-3-fkmr1&keywords=gaggia+7g+basket








The only people that have patented punch technology is IMS as far as I know. These come with the sellers company name on the box.

He ships things daily by the way so the free postage is quick. I bought some La Spaz baskets off him to try on my Barista Express.







The 7g single holds very nearly as much as the Sage double. Capacity wise the Gaggia basket is likely to be similar to all 7g E61 baskets so cheap may be a good idea first. The competition baskets are high polished and it seems have extra inspection plus engravings on the rim. In essence they are the same as the standard basket they are based on.

John

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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Thanks John,

That wasnt the one that came up when i searched, but i ordered it this morning so we will see how it fairs











ajohn said:


> This one
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Replacement-Portafilter-Basket-Espresso-Machines/dp/B071G2WSHX/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1514321249&sr=8-3-fkmr1&keywords=gaggia+7g+basket
> 
> ...


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

got my 7g basket today, so far i packed in 7g, then 9g, and i think its going to end up being 11g or so as is coming out a very under-extracted-watery-sour-mess, fits like a dream though


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

craigsalisbury said:


> got my 7g basket today, so far i packed in 7g, then 9g, and i think its going to end up being 11g or so as is coming out a very under-extracted-watery-sour-mess, fits like a dream though


11g sound like your over filling , do you have a tamper that fits and single basket ? You may need just to grind finer rather than keep adding coffee to the basket .

What single basket is it vst ?


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

It's this basket >> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Replacement...ggia+7g+basket

i wasnt aware that I would need to adjust grind to change the dose, but would grinding finer give more volume?, its something i could play with i guess. The tamper i use for it is the same 58.4 eazytamp I use for the 18g sage basket.



Mrboots2u said:


> 11g sound like your over filling , do you have a tamper that fits and single basket ? You may need just to grind finer rather than keep adding coffee to the basket .
> 
> What single basket is it vst ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

craigsalisbury said:


> It's this basket >> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Replacement...ggia+7g+basket
> 
> i wasnt aware that I would need to adjust grind to change the dose, but would grinding finer give more volume?, its something i could play with i guess. The tamper i use for it is the same 58.4 eazytamp I use for the 18g sage basket.


Grinding finer might give a little less volume, but as your basket is rated for 7g (not volume) why are you trying to cram in much more than that? If you over, or under-fill you will under-extract. If you want to use ~10g, won't the Sage basket hold that?


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

ah see this is the thing, i only want to use 7g, but when i tried it it barely got any tamping pressure and came out a sloppy mess of a drink, my man-logic was add more = better tamp compression = drinkable outcome







very happy to be put right


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:


> ah see this is the thing, i only want to use 7g, but when i tried it it barely got any tamping pressure and came out a sloppy mess of a drink, my man-logic was add more = better tamp compression = drinkable outcome
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wet pucks can come about for 2 reasons. The main one is a low basket fill. Grinding finer and finer can also produce wet pucks at some point often just a film of water across the top of the puck. It probably varies a bit across different makes of machine. Many including yours have a 3 way valve. What it does is vents the space above the puck while there is still pressure there. The general way of doing it seems to be 2 solenoids one for feeding the brew water and the other one for venting the group head. That one is closed when a shot is pulled and the other opened. At the end of the shot the brew one closes and the other one opens.








I've never tried not tamping at all which is the effect you are probably getting due to the size of your Sage single. I'd say a wet mess would be very likely however much was put in it.

John

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> Wet pucks can come about for 2 reasons. The main one is a low basket fill. Grinding finer and finer can also produce wet pucks at some point often just a film of water across the top of the puck. It probably varies a bit across different makes of machine. Many including yours have a 3 way valve. What it does is vents the space above the puck while there is still pressure there. The general way of doing it seems to be 2 solenoids one for feeding the brew water and the other one for venting the group head. That one is closed when a shot is pulled and the other opened. At the end of the shot the brew one closes and the other one opens.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Except he's using a gaggia single not a sage one. 

A smaller tamper that fits the recess might be the answer. I'll be receiving this LM single basket & MBK tamper in the new year to play with.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Except he's using a gaggia single not a sage one.
> 
> A smaller tamper that fits the recess might be the answer. I'll be receiving this LM single basket & MBK tamper in the new year to play with.


That looks pretty, interestingly looking at the VST site, they sell tampers also but state they are not compatible with their 7g basket.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Except he's using a gaggia single not a sage one.
> 
> A smaller tamper that fits the recess might be the answer. I'll be receiving this LM single basket & MBK tamper in the new year to play with.


I assumed that he hadn't received that yet. I suggested it hoping it would solve the problem and not much spent if it doesn't. It's minimum capacity will depend on how much the shower plate on the DB sticks out past the group head seal compared with Gaggia. It sticks out rather a lot on many machines due to the rather thick plate they use behind the actual shower screen. As a for instance I can get La Spaz baskets in my BE portafilter. Bit of a problem though. Filled to suit the BE the 7g basket start working correctly when it holds 15 to 16g. Pretty similar to the Sage double that comes with the machines. I have used it and that shows another problem. The basket was never intended to hold that much so even a decent dry puck tends to leave a lot behind. It's not unusual for just the centre to come out on the first knock.

@ashcroc Out of curiosity do you get dry pucks using the LM single and the small tamper ? I'd expect them to be pretty wet, mud in fact but if not I might be tempted to try the idea.

John

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> I assumed that he hadn't received that yet. I suggested it hoping it would solve the problem and not much spent if it doesn't. It's minimum capacity will depend on how much the shower plate on the DB sticks out past the group head seal compared with Gaggia. It sticks out rather a lot on many machines due to the rather thick plate they use behind the actual shower screen. As a for instance I can get La Spaz baskets in my BE portafilter. Bit of a problem though. Filled to suit the BE the 7g basket start working correctly when it holds 15 to 16g. Pretty similar to the Sage double that comes with the machines. I have used it and that shows another problem. The basket was never intended to hold that much so even a decent dry puck tends to leave a lot behind. It's not unusual for just the centre to come out on the first knock.
> 
> @ashcroc Out of curiosity do you get dry pucks using the LM single and the small tamper ? I'd expect them to be pretty wet, mud in fact but if not I might be tempted to try the idea.
> 
> ...


I won't be receiving it until the new year so don't know yet, though I've never really been bothered with a soggy puck if the taste is good. @MediumRoastSteam would know.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

it seems singles are a real PITA, so i'm thinking just to drop $$ and get a 15g and VST from BB , its not ideal but im already having to deal with mrs craigs scowl when i try to sell the machine to her and she see's weighing, fluffing, tamping etc. definitely going to have to keep the nespresso side by side for the time being, it think changing grinds without a button will be the straw tha broke the salesmans back lol


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:


> it seems singles are a real PITA, so i'm thinking just to drop $$ and get a 15g and VST from BB , its not ideal but im already having to deal with mrs craigs scowl when i try to sell the machine to her and she see's weighing, fluffing, tamping etc. definitely going to have to keep the nespresso side by side for the time being, it think changing grinds without a button will be the straw tha broke the salesmans back lol










My wife uses our Nespresso. Can't persuade her to go near the espresso machine.

Singles aren't a pita. Depends on what you want and also which bean you use. For instance I recently started some Cuban beans and thought try my recently acquired 14g basket with 12.5g in it. I could still taste the stuff 20min after drinking it. Overpowering is an understatement. I then use the sage 10g single with 9.5g in it. Pleasant now but as the bean is a bit denser than others I have used need to go nearer to 10g for a perfect puck. It came out clean anyway.

If you have a grinder with a timed dose on it they may take a while to get the dose right but make life simpler. There is still a need to check what's coming out now and again though as they tend to drift - pretty rapidly I find when used from clean with a new bean.

Personally I think that baskets such as VST etc are a bit of a rip off other than closely spaced sizes. That's what Sage should do themselves. They are bound to sell. Any you buy and that includes IMS competition etc may have a fill problem due to where your shower screen it. The Gaggia basket will give you a clue about that.

Hard to suggest a bean. I don't drink blends at all and stick to origins. This one might suite your Sage single as 10g in my full Sage single is too weak for me so have to use the darker roasts. It's a very popular bean available from many sellers.

https://www.redber.co.uk/collections/asia-and-pacific-coffee-beans/products/monsooned-malabar-a-medium-dark-roast?variant=283991814

The darker roast can be tricky to grind as it's usually oily. Or maybe even their lighter still roast of the same bean. The spicey kick they mention can be pretty illusive and from the beans I have bought is more associated with the lighter roasts. Hard to describe it. Acidic no, more of a spicy hint. It makes very smooth coffee. They'll send you a small bag of something else on your first order.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If you dont have a suitable tamper for a single basket then they are going to be a massive pain to get a decent shot from . End of .


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> If you dont have a suitable tamper for a single basket then they are going to be a massive pain to get a decent shot from . End of .


^^^ what he said









so the 7g gaggia and the whatever-the-sage-single is have the same shoulder height, which begs the question, why the hell are sage supplying one tamper thats not ideal for the single basket they supply.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

There is a man on here that I think uses a DB and I think he mentioned 7.5g of monsooned.








Might have a solution @dfk41 Sorry to bother you if I have that wrong and by the way. thanks for the Jampit mention.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

craigsalisbury said:


> ^^^ what he said
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because , contrary to other opinion , singles are a PITA anyway , and are really not used alot , doubles are easier to , dial in , and tamp , and get a decent shot from.

Plus coffee culture is big milk drinks , people are going to use a single basket for those .

Plus most machines dont come with any tamper at al or if they do a piece of plastic crap that is fit for the binl .... let alone a actual decent one for a double


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:


> ^^^ what he said
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The fill height should come some way up the parallel portion of the basket so Sage do supply a tamper that fits their baskets. A pretty good one actually, it even gives an indication of the correct fill height.

As I mentioned you can find out what the baskets hold pretty easily. Weigh the basket empty and use tare, Fill it with grinds, tamp it and check with the razor tool. If the grinds don't reach the razor tool add some more and repeat. Then razor it off and weigh full. It's not a bad idea to weigh the basket empty and do the sum in case tare times out too quickly.

It would be interesting to know what the depth of the shoulder is on the razor tool that comes with the DB. The one that comes with the BE is 6.62mm deep.








Sage seem to read these threads by the way.

John

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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

ajohn said:


> The fill height should come some way up the parallel portion of the basket so Sage do supply a tamper that fits their baskets. A pretty good one actually, it even gives an indication of the correct fill height.
> 
> As I mentioned you can find out what the baskets hold pretty easily. Weigh the basket empty and use tare, Fill it with grinds, tamp it and check with the razor tool. If the grinds don't reach the razor tool add some more and repeat. Then razor it off and weigh full. It's not a bad idea to weigh the basket empty and do the sum in case tare times out too quickly.
> 
> ...


not a shabby idea, just measured.

The razor shoulder height is 8mm which is the same as the shoulder depth of the single basket. tha gaggia 7g basket is around 9.5mm, so i was waay off. I'll perform your suggestion tomorrow with the basket, weigh, tamp, scrape, weigh.

..and if Sage do read these forums, maybe they will make some improvements


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:


> ..and if Sage do read these forums, maybe they will make some improvements


Sadly they need to spend money to do that







But they could be generous and only charge £10 a piece bearing in mind that people spend the odd £20 on stuff that doesn't really help.

If like the BE you can probably go some what shallower than the razor tool. 8mm stands more chance than my 6 odd but might still be too little.

John

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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

ajohn said:


> Sadly they need to spend money to do that
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i think what i will try is fill it as much as possible, eazytamp it for consistency, then razor and weigh. that should give the ideal amount (according to sage i guess). then pull a shot and see what the result is like.

will update tomorrow morning (providing some a-hole in the US of A don't wake me up at 3am like last night) :/


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

so,

going to maximum capacity, tamping with the eazytamp, then using the razor for the correct headroom is bringing the gaggia 7g out at 13.6g. I'd say it definitely requires a smaller tamper, but then what about headroom?

Now my man-logic would say the following:

grinding coarser would possibly give more volume in the basket as the grains cannot compress, but then because of the space between grains flow would be faster with possible under extraction.

grinding finer would be less basket volume as the grains sit closer together, so a slower flow due to resistance of the puck. (also requires a smaller tamper to compress it)

2 things im not really sure about is pre-infusion and basket headroom, so im thinking this:

pre-infusion wets the puck which if not tamped with sufficient pressure would make coffee soup and therefore a bad extraction?

with much more headroom in the basket, id imagine the same would happen with out sufficient pressure in the tamp.

so therefore, in both cases, no "tiny tamper" (see what i did there) = not a good extraction.

btw i'm going to copywrite "tiny tamper"


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Pre-infusion fills the voids in the puck with liquid, allowing a finer grind without choking.

If you have ground in the ball-park, your tamped puck will mostly hold together.

Surely, the stock Sage single basket (designed for a flat 58mm tamper) holds less than 13.6g? If your dose with the Sage double was 18g, why is it so critical for you to have a single shot that is as much as 76% of that you made with the Sage & 18g? What is the weight of shot you are looking for?

Sufficient pressure in the tamp is anything over a few kg (it's pretty hard to tamp with less than 5kg). Don't try to control the shot by varying tamp force, use grind setting.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

i just done the same measurement with the stock sage single, which holds 12g. I took the tamp pressure variable away using the eazytamp which is set to give a consistent tamp pressure. I purposely overfilled the baskets and then using the "razor" that comes with the sage to give the recommended fill....and 12g is what was hit.

I pull 52g on an 18g dose which im happy with, so im guessing 32-33g on a 12g should be about right.

Grinding


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

What does the Sage single hold measured the same way ? It might be better to switch to that and see what can be done to alter the taste. Sounds like the Gaggia is a keeper though as it fills a hole that you might want some day. It's smaller than the Sage double. It also gives you and idea what IMS and that other make will hold in practice. If some day you want to pull 2 shots at the same time using the dual spouts on the portafilter you may find the need for another Gaggia basket if they are large milk drinks of the size many people drink these days

Yes you'll get less in if you grind coarser - It's one way that people control the strength. The usual comment is if too bitter grind a little coarser. Maybe little should be in very big letters and too bitter too strong.

On the DB it seems from reviews that the grind once the fill is in the correct range should be set so that the pressure gauge goes through the infusion stage and then pops up to max pressure - 10 bar and then drops back a little. I suspect the 10 bar is a case of more is better. I think the usual number is 8 to 9. The easiest way to see what the pressure gauge behaviour should look like is to fit the single dual wall basket and run a double through it with no coffee in it. I assume you have been using the single wall basket so far. Using the dual wall on ground fresh roasted can have an odd effect. The peak value on the gauge is a rough indication of the strength the drink is likely to have.

There are 2 reasons I don't like soggy pucks. Making several drinks on the trot is a pain and the 3 way valve action is likely to suck more grinds back into the machine which means the machine will need back flushing more often and also flushing - that's just running a shot through the shower filter and giving it a brush. The manual probably mentions cleaning behind the shower screen now and again too. Likely to need to do that more often too.

One very simple way of reducing the strength is to not preheat the portafilter and keep it cool for subsequent shots so that the taste will always be the same.







Maybe you could keep half a dozen portafilters in the freezer but the cold tap should do especially if you have soggy pucks.

When your setting up there isn't any need to drink the lot - taste it but it's also a good idea to let it cool and taste yet again. Remember though that the crema will have a stronger taste than what's underneath. A brisk stir with a spoon can reduce it or it can be spooned off.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

If you want to try under filling I'd be inclined to try using one of these

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ESE-Single-Pod-Filter-Holder-Basket-Faema-Gaggia-Rancilio-Coffee-Machine-Maker/400652887724?epid=1369384652&hash=item5d48c5e6ac:g:YDsAAOSwWKtUtYcY

Assuming it fits. There is a good chance that it will hold less than the Gaggia 7g. I'm using a la spaz one on my BE. On that it's usable at 12g and max's at 14g. As your shower screen sticks out more totally different basket than my size but there is a chance it might get you where you want to be.







No guarantees given or implied but at least the standard tamper should allow serious under filling.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

craigsalisbury said:


> I pull 52g on an 18g dose which im happy with, so im guessing 32-33g on a 12g should be about right.
> 
> Grinding
> 
> Grind so that the 12-33g shot takes the same time (time from engaging to killing the pump, maybe killing about 10g short of target?) as 18:52g. If you're too coarse & overshoot 33g a little, record the time & weight, taste it to see if it's getting too weak.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

You'll find setting up a grinder a pain for a while but once you get used to it you'll find it's a much quicker operation.

Unless Sage have gone bonkers you should be able to reduce the dose by gram or so below the razor tool without to much grief with pucks. Problems come when you make the grind finer though - the fill level will drop so stick with the razor tool for a while. It's almost bound to be able to hold a gram or so more but oddly there comes a point when more is added where it doesn't do what is expected as the grounds can't expand.

As like my BE you have timed shots I'd be inclined to stick with them as they come. You can mess with the times later but I'd forget that for a while. First task is to find a grind where you see a peak pressure on the gauge of circa 8.5 bar. You'll have achieved something then - a position of the grinder adjustment that is in right the ball park. Grind finer and the peak pressure will go up, coarser and it will drop. Any bean wont be that far from that adjustment position. The razor tool will help avoiding the need to weigh etc for a while. It's a pain to do as you try various levels of grind out so if needed I do that last as it's much quicker.

I have a grinder similar to a super jolly (think you mentioned one) but need to strip it and clean it so haven't used it. I think you will find that adjustments need rather small movements of the wheel. On some grinders people relate a certain turn of the adjustment to a change is shot size but until you are in the espresso range no point in worrying about that. Try to get a feel for for the amount of adjustment to get moderate changes in the peak reading of the pressure gauge. Some on here say ignore the gauge or don't take too much notice of it but they can be useful. You will probably find that the pressure relates to the size of the shot that comes out. If as Sage intended you'll probably find that a single gives 30ml and a double 60 or close to it with the default time settings.







Trouble on the BE though is that it tends to give crap weak coffee. I suspect the DB will be more efficient in that respect. The DB manual may give some info on gauge behaviour. It does in the BE's.

When your there run a single shot and see what it tastes like however you drink it. Then try a double shot through the same set up and try that. It could either strengthen or smooth out the drink or hardly change it all. Then having made a choice now is the time to play with the scales and the weight of grinds

Truncating a shot by shortening the time might do nothing really noticeable at all. You do have the option of playing with the infusion on the DB but again best left for a while. That can change the strength of what comes out. Infusion tends to preheat and soak the grinds before the flow really starts. If there is no pre infusion pressure the coffee will be a lot weaker than it should be. I've yet to find a bean for the BE that can be used like that. This is why it needs more sizes of basket.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

How does pre infusion change the strength of what comes out ? I dont get how lacking pre infusion makes coffee weaker....


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

ajohn said:


> You'll find setting up a grinder a pain for a while but once you get used to it you'll find it's a much quicker operation.
> 
> Unless Sage have gone bonkers you should be able to reduce the dose by gram or so below the razor tool without to much grief with pucks. Problems come when you make the grind finer though - the fill level will drop so stick with the razor tool for a while. It's almost bound to be able to hold a gram or so more but oddly there comes a point when more is added where it doesn't do what is expected as the grounds can't expand.
> 
> ...


my 18g is ok, I changed the shot buttons to volumetric once i got that dialled in. I just need to find a good place on the single.....if i can be bothered. right now im all about dialing in a new bean as I ran out, and this is much stronger so im going to play with it tomorrow.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Infusion tends to preheat and soak the grinds before the flow really starts. If there is no pre infusion pressure the coffee will be a lot weaker than it should be. I've yet to find a bean for the BE that can be used like that. This is why it needs more sizes of basket.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Most people would adjust their grinder to normalise the 'no preinfusion' vs preinfusion shots. Your brew ratio & grind setting determine the shot strength. Bigger baskets make bigger shots, smaller baskets make smaller shots, when dialled in.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Sage show some nice pictures of the gauge behaviour on the BE and if the needle vertical as shown is followed there will generally be no pre infusion pressure generated at all and for every bean I have tried the shot will be weak and can if drunk as a long black have a rather specific flavour - a hint of water. I've just managed to get round that on the Cuban bean I am going to be using for a while. Not happy so next go will be a finer grind and less coffee.

It seems that there is no mention of pressure gauge behaviour in the DB manual. Pity really as it's a quick way for some one to get a new grinder into the region where it needs to be. Has to be admitted though that there seems to be a catch on the DTP and BE because it seems to be more of a balance between getting a decent pre infusion and lots going out of the OPV. That's why there are some discussions on here concerning modifications to both the OPV and pre infusion. Not being able too use larger *baskets* that fit in between the single and the double or even past that makes this area even more of a problem. The gauge can be used for other things as well. Keeping an eye on the tuning for instance providing tamping is very consistent - the OP doesn't have a problem in that area.

Obviously the grind and fill is used to get that balance correct - that is what was being discussed. Basket size - well the man is trying to sort out a single.

John

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> I assumed that he hadn't received that yet. I suggested it hoping it would solve the problem and not much spent if it doesn't. It's minimum capacity will depend on how much the shower plate on the DB sticks out past the group head seal compared with Gaggia. It sticks out rather a lot on many machines due to the rather thick plate they use behind the actual shower screen. As a for instance I can get La Spaz baskets in my BE portafilter. Bit of a problem though. Filled to suit the BE the 7g basket start working correctly when it holds 15 to 16g. Pretty similar to the Sage double that comes with the machines. I have used it and that shows another problem. The basket was never intended to hold that much so even a decent dry puck tends to leave a lot behind. It's not unusual for just the centre to come out on the first knock.
> 
> @ashcroc Out of curiosity do you get dry pucks using the LM single and the small tamper ? I'd expect them to be pretty wet, mud in fact but if not I might be tempted to try the idea.
> 
> ...


Received the LM single basket & tamper today. 1st test was a touch spurty through the naked pf but it other than that it extracted well & tasted cleaner than a split shot as the single has finer holes (grinder was dialled into my IMS double basket & it was very close to being spot on). The puck was incredably soupy which isn't surprising considering the extra gap between the puck & shower screen but it's a small price to pay.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Received the LM single basket & tamper today. 1st test was a touch spurty through the naked pf but it other than that it extracted well & tasted cleaner than a split shot as the single has finer holes (grinder was dialled into my IMS double basket & it was very close to being spot on). The puck was incredably soupy which isn't surprising considering the extra gap between the puck & shower screen but it's a small price to pay.










I've been wondering if I can modify a slightly too large filter basket with a hammer but some one in another thread who's an expert in telepathic coffee tasting tells me I shouldn't faff about with a single.

You know, I didn't realise just how many telepathic people were about until I joined this forum.







I thought the only one was me.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> I've been wondering if I can modify a slightly too large filter basket with a hammer but some one in another thread who's an expert in telepathic coffee tasting tells me I shouldn't faff about with a single.
> 
> You know, I didn't realise just how many telepathic people were about until I joined this forum.
> 
> ...


Post about making coffee, not armchair psychology.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> I've been wondering if I can modify a slightly too large filter basket with a hammer but some one in another thread who's an expert in telepathic coffee tasting tells me I shouldn't faff about with a single.
> 
> You know, I didn't realise just how many telepathic people were about until I joined this forum.
> 
> ...


Singles are quite notorious for being finicky so most people don't bother with them.

While quite a few manufacturers supply a single (or at least have one as an optional extra or share a portafilter size with those that do), it's very much a compromise on the design.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Singles are quite notorious for being finicky so most people don't bother with them.
> 
> While quite a few manufacturers supply a single (or at least have one as an optional extra or share a portafilter size with those that do), it's very much a compromise on the design.


I gave up and going with VST baskets, too much faff


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Singles are quite notorious for being finicky so most people don't bother with them.
> 
> While quite a few manufacturers supply a single (or at least have one as an optional extra or share a portafilter size with those that do), it's very much a compromise on the design.


Fracino tell me they mostly sell 7's and 14's and some 12's. Fortunately for me the Sage single holds a bit more than the 7 really can. I've recently found a 14g that I can use on the Sage and will some how or the other find a 12 if I can. Just using the Sage single I'm choosing beans on the basis of what I want and what that size of basket can give. Simple really. This is why VST make such a range of basket sizes and why some buy them. The weights they hold wouldn't be of any use to me and wouldn't fit the machine anyway.

Fracino 7g a compromise? From my use of it i's fine and does what it should within it's range. I do wonder about the shape of the Sage single. My Piccino came off some one that owns 2 restaurants. He used the beans they used in the double on milk based drinks. Something I avoid completely when I can which rules out the Sage double for beans I am inclined to like. Does for me anyway.

Who knows things might change eventually. Seems that the big boys are getting an interest in the fresh roasted area as they want a slice of the action. That will just probably finish up as blends that suite basket sizes and certain drink sizes. Depends on what people seem to want or they can persuade them to want. If it was origin beans the current basket sizes wont cope with all factors.

John

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> Fracino tell me they mostly sell 7's and 14's and some 12's. Fortunately for me the Sage single holds a bit more than the 7 really can. I've recently found a 14g that I can use on the Sage and will some how or the other find a 12 if I can. Just using the Sage single I'm choosing beans on the basis of what I want and what that size of basket can give. Simple really. This is why VST make such a range of basket sizes and why some buy them. The weights they hold wouldn't be of any use to me and wouldn't fit the machine anyway.
> 
> Fracino 7g a compromise? From my use of it i's fine and does what it should within it's range. I do wonder about the shape of the Sage single. My Piccino came off some one that owns 2 restaurants. He used the beans they used in the double on milk based drinks. Something I avoid completely when I can which rules out the Sage double for beans I am inclined to like. Does for me anyway.
> 
> ...


From a design point of view it is absolutely a compromise. An E61 head is designed to take a 58mm basket not a 41mm basket with stretched sides to make it fit a 58mm hole or a cone shaped one that's gonna be virtually impossible to tamp evenly. I'm sure there's a reason why the single basket isn't just a shallow 58mm one although that would be easier to tamp leaving the correct gap.

The fact fransino sell alot of 7 & 14g baskets in no way impacts their shortcomings in design so I,m not sure qhy you bothered mentioning it.


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