# Fact or fiction.........is it just coffee bollo***



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I often scratch my head in amazement, at some of the stuff that goes on in retail. Take for example, washing powder. When I was a lad, you got powder. Then some bright spark followed with bio or non bio. Now, you have powder, tablets, liquid tablets, liquid and the list probably goes on and on.

Again, in my youth, we had BBC1 and ITV, in black and white. Then came BBC2, then colour, then 4 then 5 and now you have the whole plethora that represents the digital age.

What has this to do with coffee? Well. we all know that if you get the basic elements right (tamp, grind, brew temp, freshness of coffee, probably loads more) then you should be able to make an acceptable shot for the home. Then we are told we need to mimic the professional so we need to be able to adjust things via a PID, or better still a paddle. You are using baskets with ridges. That is terrible and you must immediately swop to a VST ridgeless which gives you a certificate telling you that each hole has been measured (by the Taiwanese manufacturer) and is guaranteed to be proportionate (how the hell would we ever really know anyway) and this in turn is going to enhance your coffee making experience and make you a better person!

I do not doubt, that there is a scientific argument which backs up all these things we do in the process of making a cuppa, but are they really necessary?

Should the delicate palate and taste buds of the very few really dictate how the rest of us behave, or are we just canon fodder for the ever burgeoning commercial arena that truly represents coffee bollocks!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mighty boosh?


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## mike 100 (Jul 15, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> I often scratch my head in amazement, at some of the stuff that goes on in retail. Take for example, washing powder. When I was a lad, you got powder. Then some bright spark followed with bio or non bio. Now, you have powder, tablets, liquid tablets, liquid and the list probably goes on and on.
> 
> Again, in my youth, we had BBC1 and ITV, in black and white. Then came BBC2, then colour, then 4 then 5 and now you have the whole plethora that represents the digital age.
> 
> ...


Excuse my ignorance.. but what's a paddle?


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

I must be of a similar age to dfk41 and equally as cynical and agree with his sentiments.Every thing now is bigger, better faster ,smoother,improves everything you do and you cannot possibly do without.

It does not matter what walk of life it is in coffee,cars, shampoo,face cream, power tools it all equals one thing ===SALES SALES SALES


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Progress will always leave the ignorant behind


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Yeah, less is often more. One way we suckers sorry consumers are conned is with that irritating phrase 'added value'. It's a great way to extract more money from us for very little in return. A good example is health foods.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

forzajuve said:


> Progress will always leave the ignorant behind


reminds me of the following quote which shows, when it comes to supposed 'progress' and 'reorganisation' it's mostly more of the same.

"We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning

to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later

in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing;

and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress

while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization."

Caius Petronius AD 66


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

There is a famous quote, from a Geordie play called, 'Close the coalhouse door pet'. It looks at tyneside tgrough the demise of industry, and one famous line is this:

Divorsification........wots that mun? Wheyyyyy, thats when they knock down yor coalmines and build your porfume factories

A paddle is a bit some top end E61 type machines have that let them emulate shots pulled on a lever.....bit like replacing the New York philamonic with a Moog Synthesizer!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> What has this to do with coffee? Well. we all know that if you get the basic elements right (tamp, grind, brew temp, freshness of coffee, probably loads more) then you should be able to make an acceptable shot for the home.....
> 
> I do not doubt, that there is a scientific argument which backs up all these things we do in the process of making a cuppa, but are they really necessary?
> 
> Should the delicate palate and taste buds of the very few really dictate how the rest of us behave, or are we just canon fodder for the ever burgeoning commercial arena that truly represents coffee bollocks!


I think there'll always be the view that we can do things by "feel" alone, buy a machine that we like the look of and get results that we are happy with. No argument there, we make coffee because we like it, if we like what we are making then we can give ourselves a pat on the back & incur the envy of those who aren't.

There are a couple of points that do stand out to me though...where do you draw the line over what gives a "good" result vs price point? I mean does an "acceptable shot for the home" need a £1200 espresso machine & a commercial grinder? Is not a commercial group & K10 fresh also mimicing the professionals, isn't there a degree of perspective at play?

These things cost way more than a basket, which will fit a wide range of machines at various price points.

Is coffee science, art, or craft? Or do all 3 dovetail when you get a great result...what if looking more at science & craft allows you to hit that great "art" result with more consistency?

Espresso (because, let's face it - it's specifically what we are talking about here rather than a "cup of coffee made at home" - you can go down to your local supermarket, buy a £5 French press, a Porlex/Hario Slim/Krups/De Longhi/Bodum grinder and have access to some of the most stunning coffees in the world) is a drink produced by forcing water through a puck of tamped coffee, to produce a drink in the cup. Ideally, the machine provides consistent parameters for you to work with (temp, pressure), but only if you provide consistent input regarding dose weight, resistance that the water sees & weight of beverage. Little changes in weights & grind make significant changes in result (a gram of espresso being a ~30th of the shot, rather than a ~260th of a drip brew for a typical 18g dose).

Some coffees taste great at a range of extractions, you have a wide margin in which to get an "acceptable cuppa", you might like the idea of each cup having it's own character...then you might hit a "god shot" and wonder why nothing else has tasted like that before or since? You might drink the same coffee brewed & wonder why there are characteristics that you simply can't replicate as espresso, even when diluted down to Americano/brewed strength.

Anything that helps you repeat a good result is a help.

If, like the "very few with delicate taste buds", you taste a lot of coffee, made numerous ways, by numerous professionals, would a shot brewed to your preference knock them out? (Just a thought, not a comment or criticism on what you might be achieving in your home, or whether that is "right" or "wrong"). I don't make much espresso (it's difficult & I'm lazy) but when I do some of my thin, almost crema-less, shots would probably be thrown straight down the sink by most on this forum...I only drink them because they taste great.

Here is a thought: You brew 18g of grinds into a beverage of 30g (an example of a commonly used ratio). Most people will prefer that shot when it has ~3-3.5g of the dry dose dissolved into the drink (it may be "nice" at other ranges but if you have never got in the range you may just be evaluating the best of reasonably nice shots, rather then best possible, or when you do occasionally hit that range you put it down to phases of the moon/stepping up your regime of ancestor worship/benevolent woodland spirits?). If you get a little under 3g the shot will be acidic, a little over 3.5g it will be drying & bitter...if you get alot under it may be smooth but generic & lacking character. (We are excluding EK43 shots for the benefit of this example).

To get that result repeatedly you need the same dose, the same resistance of the puck, the same output...even then it will vary, because espresso is hard.

But again, if you're happy & enjoying your espresso, why worry?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Im at the stage now where I just want to taste the bloody coffee and the faff is annoying me. If progression in technology allows me to make coffee more consistantly, and, easier then Ill take it. 1 or 2 decent shots out of a 250g bag isnt good enough.

If I make a bad shot its my fault, I accept that, 'cos the cupping bowl showed me that the beans are amazing...... if only the grinder and machine etc allowed me to get the very best out of the coffee without so much trial and error.


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

For 'engineered products' it's just the natural progression of continuous improvement:

Convenience - How easy is something to use, how can it be made easier, less mess, manual intervention, etc

Consistency - Can the thing do the same thing, to the same standard, each time it's used

Customer expectation - Some features become expected on base models as time goes on (e.g. electric windows in cars)

Cost - can it be made cheaper (need to do that before your competitor does)

Performance - Do something better

However, once you get into specialist (i.e. expensive) area of a product type, the law of diminishing returns comes into it (level of improvement reduces although the amount you need to spend increases) and here Consistency and Performance are the main drivers when trying to make something better.

So, in the coffee world, I think that it's not all rubbish, but is all progress in trying to give us an end product in the cup that is more consistent and/or better. Note that I am a design engineer with a continuous improvement focus so do have a biased view on this! In fact (note I don't wish to hijack this thread but use an example) I personally find the Sage machine very interesting because it has the potential to tick a lot of the above boxes and can see what they're trying to do in the design


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

But you must eventually reach a stage, where the palate cannot detect the changes that science say we need.


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> But you must eventually reach a stage, where the palate cannot detect the changes that science say we need.


Personally, the best thing you can ever have is no palate as it'll save you a fortune. Tesco value all the way!

However, I'm guessing no-one on here has a rubbish palate as the fact that we can taste the difference between fresh coffee and supermarket bought is why we're here. However I agree that there'll be a point where an individual won't be able to tell the difference. That's where people need to learn to ignore the marketing and try before they buy. At the end of the day it'll make a difference to someone, just might not be you or I


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> But you must eventually reach a stage, where the palate cannot detect the changes that science say we need.


Science/experience/current thinking does not suggest that there is a specific, tiny/narrow point where coffee tastes best, but a range (my experience is that this can also shift with brew method - I like Bonavita immersion cone ~25%, French press & Sowden at 20% or 22% & NOT 21%...the EK43 philosophy says it can shift with grind quality & seems perfectly plausible). Nobody is saying that 20.15% yield, precisely tastes best, more like +/-1% range, like 18-20% for espresso. Now, because we are talking about hundredths (%) this makes it seem like a tiny, tiny, imperceptible range. But...

Only around 30% of coffee is soluble, so now were talking +/-6%, or a ~fifteenth (2%/30%), for an identifiable ideal range.

Realistically extractions are likely to fall between 12% & late 20%'s (this high end will be difficult at typical 60-70% brew ratios)...much over 22% and it'll be bitter & go down the sink. So really, talking about shots regularly discussed here, were likely looking at less than a 10% range of extraction yield, so 2%/10% = about 1:5 difference in range in detectable extraction yield between acidic & sour, to good range, to bitter. Doesn't seem that hard, or superhuman to detect things in that kind of range? The better you get at tasting then you might be able get closer to +/-0.5% yield, or 1:10 difference in that range?

I don't measure my espresso, just drip & steeped brews, the steeped brews are always +/- 0.5% extraction when they hit my preference & I subsequently measure them. I kill the brews based entirely on taste, the difference between 2% yield is huge with these, even 1% is marked. A French press is likely to start around 14% by the time all the coffee & water have been in contact for a few minutes, 23%+ is unlikely to happen at all, so a working window of around 9% extraction yield range?

Extraction is the only constant, from bean to bean, at which you can compare coffees at this time. Beans taste different, temp can also impact on that flavour, so I'm not saying all 19.5% coffees taste the same, but they might taste as good as they can from 18.5-20.5% with that method? Bad protocol can still screw up an ideal yield.

I guess my philosophy is: I get some beans, I want to know what they taste like, rather than what my deficiencies & cock ups make them taste like, I want to taste & compare coffees, not my inconsistencies in coffee making. That said, there are coffees that are far more forgiving than others, but that doesn't make them "better" overall, just that you still win a bit when you screw them up. ;-)


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MWJB said:


> I guess my philosophy is: I get some beans, I want to know what they taste like, rather than what my deficiencies & cock ups make them taste like, I want to taste & compare coffees, not my inconsistencies in coffee making. That said, there are coffees that are far more forgiving than others, but that doesn't make them "better" overall, just that you still win a bit when you screw them up. ;-)


Buy that man a pint. Amen


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

There is a lot of BS spouted by people who have a vested interest in doing so (I'm looking at you Hasbean). But I usually recognise such and try and read between the lines. It's no different to any industry though, some people get swept up in it all. I also think there is a massive placebo effect when tasting. There was a thread a while back asking why some people had stopped using the forums so much. To me it was after reading about people using and comparing the use of different bottles mineral water. I would love a better machine than the entry level one I have, no doubt a top of the range one would produce better coffee/milk and faster, but it works ok for now. I enjoy the coffee it makes then get on with my life. The fact that some people tend to talk more about their equipment than the beans says a lot.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

A quick take on the technology vs tradition. Using my Gaggia Classic every one in a while when every factor needed is in alignment I can make a truly wonderful coffee, using the Sage I can make that wonderful coffee every shot.

I have got a point I would like to open for discussion on this thread:

Can anyone give me a cogent and reasoned argument why a system that has a PID on the brew boiler and uses a thermosyphon to control the group temperature, should be any more thermally stable than one that uses a PID on a smaller brew boiler that is fed water pre heated by an HX in the steam boiler and also uses a PID on the electrically heated group, given, that we all accept that a PID can keep a brew boiler to the selected temperature more accurately, even a cheap chinese PID off ebay will do this.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

As I went through this thread the best example of marketing came to mind. Question, how do you get the consumer to spend more.

Read the instructions on your shampoo bottle, wet hair, apply shampoo and wash, rinse out, (now comes the marketing) REPEAT. Ooop we just doubled our sales.

Ian


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

autopilot said:


> There is a lot of BS spouted by people who have a vested interest in doing so (I'm looking at you Hasbean). But I usually recognise such and try and read between the lines. It's no different to any industry though, some people get swept up in it all. I also think there is a massive placebo effect when tasting. There was a thread a while back asking why some people had stopped using the forums so much. To me it was after reading about people using and comparing the use of different bottles mineral water. I would love a better machine than the entry level one I have, no doubt a top of the range one would produce better coffee/milk and faster, but it works ok for now. I enjoy the coffee it makes then get on with my life. The fact that some people tend to talk more about their equipment than the beans says a lot.


What's the HasBean BS? I think "BS" might be a bit harsh unless you can specifically identify something?

The placebo effect isn't that massive, like I said, I can get brews within a given measurable range, purely by taste, I'm not gifted in that respect.

Agreed, talk of machines outweighs beans, but machines are easier to quantify (in a Top Trumps kind of way) than written descriptions of tastes...but when you get back to identifying why a cup of coffee tastes different to another, you're inevitably going to need a machine - scales, kettles, timers, thermometers, grinders are all machines...if you want to go iron age on us & use a pestle & mortar (been there, don't recommend it) and a log fire, then knock yourself out ;-)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

When we talk about espresso , a lot of the conversation or topics will start with , my extractions are sour or bitter or short or long . Which means that invariably one will talk about the technique required to make espresso ( good distribution , dosing etc ) , and then onto the restrictions or not of the machine or machines you are using to make it .

So there may be an expectation of tasting honeydew melon in a espresso , that you can't taste or define , when it's made with your equipment , therefore you look at the things that may be getting in the ay of achieving this . Technique and more often the machines being used and their limitations . More expensive machines in general make it easier to make consistent espresso more of the time.....

Re straight sided or slope sided vst , I m sure I couldn't tell the difference In taste between them. But we are all boys , and we all like toys......

Plus there isn't enough talking about the coffee we drink sometimes ....


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

MWJB said:


> What's the HasBean BS? I think "BS" might be a bit harsh unless you can specifically identify something?
> 
> The placebo effect isn't that massive, like I said, I can get brews within a given measurable range, purely by taste, I'm not giften in that respect.
> 
> Agreed, talk of machines outweighs beans, but machines are easier to quantify (in a Top Trumps kind of way) than written descriptions of tastes...but when you get back to identifying why a cup of coffee tastes different to another, you're inevitably going to need a machine - scales, kettles, timers, thermometers, grinders are all machines...if you want to go iron age on us & use a pestle & mortar (been there, don't recommend it) and a log fire, then knock yourself out ;-)


Just my quick input here, as a confirmed cynic regarding Has Bean and the way they promulgate their philosophy. Recently I talked to Gary **** about possible offering from Has bean for me to try given my aversion to acidic citrusy espresso, as I wanted to give them another go whilst I had a machine at home that I could adjust more to get a better shot and he came up with the suggestion of a Brazilian coffee, see my recent posts in the what's in my cup thread, and he was absolutely on the nail, I would say it is more of a medium than a light roast but I'll certainly be buying more of it and maybe having a much closer look at the Has Bean site again.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I would say 75% of the time Has Beans descriptors are spot on when cupped, if you can extract the coffee properly then you'll find them in brewed and espresso . Everyone has a different mouth and thus some descriptions might be arguable for the majority

Not sure what BS is being referred to?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I would say 75% of the time Has Beans descriptors are spot on when cupped, if you can extract the coffee properly then you'll find them in brewed and espresso . Everyone has a different mouth and thus some descriptions might be arguable for the majority
> 
> Not sure what BS is being referred to?


Indeed. My perception is the tasting notes relate to 'the journey' as the coffee extracts & cools in a cupping scenario, the widest picture if you like, there are notes that may be absent from certain protocols, but if you don't get any of them then it's likely your extraction level is way off.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Lets not forget , when Steve cups his coffees - they are in their prime, ground on an Uber Grinder and a perfect water temp/profile. Same goes for espresso - Slayer/Linea PB and k30/Super Caimano etc etc. He gives them every chance to shine


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

Steve also has a very sensitive palate IMHO (way more sensitive than me)


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Its probably experience too. Will have cupped thousands of coffees over the years


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

I agree there. The only reason I say it is because I've cupped with Steve (and with other people at the same time for comparison as well) and he picks up things most people can't.

Some people are supertasters*, and he's one

*approx 15% of men and 35% of women are supertasters


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

On the HB theme - love or hate their coffee, their marketing works.

Ive tried plenty of HB coffee and can pick out some of the flavours that they describe. More so with my current setup (damn ! back to bringing in equipment again)

More recently Ive moved away from HB and am trying other roasters to varying levels of success


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## Java Jive (Sep 21, 2013)

autopilot said:


> There is a lot of BS spouted by people who have a vested interest in doing so (I'm looking at you Hasbean).


What BS is HasBean spouting? As a newbie I'm learning so much from their detailed bean information, web resources, videos, blog, etc., that I feel a bit defensive about that statement!


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Java Jive said:


> What BS is HasBean spouting? As a newbie I'm learning so much from their detailed bean information, web resources, videos, blog, etc., that I feel a bit defensive about that statement!


There are people on the forum and I have been guilty of this too, that view the way Has Bean promote themselves etc as being very similar to the way the uber evangelical christians or the mormons operate in promulgating their views.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I'm gonna be the one to say it . What does promulgating mean .


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> I'm gonna be the one to say it . What does promulgating mean .


Not entirely sure, but does it mean projectile vomiting??


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> I'm gonna be the one to say it . What does promulgating mean .


Promulgate: Promote or make known (usually of an idea or cause). More simply put spreading the word lol.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

What's a word lol?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I take it to mean philosophy or ideas etc not "The Word" in a biblical sensej.

If you would like to read a great comedy take on "The Word" read a copy of the Book of Morm the Mormons holy book, I was once stuck in a motel in Salt Lake City and ran out of something to read or do- pre-internet days and it was either the Gideon Bible or the Book of Morm so chose the latter and it reads like a spoof holy book it gave me a very good laugh. Sorry if this offends any mormons but you have the right to believe as you wish , just as I have the right to disbelieve.


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> we need to be able to adjust things via a PID, or better still a paddle.





mike 100 said:


> Excuse my ignorance.. but what's a paddle?


Are they available in exotic woods, and if so, where can I buy one?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

mike 100 said:


> Excuse my ignorance.. but what's a paddle?


A very handy device if you are way up the creek and need to go against the current


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## Java Jive (Sep 21, 2013)

Charliej said:


> There are people on the forum and I have been guilty of this too, that view the way Has Bean promote themselves etc as being very similar to the way the uber evangelical christians or the mormons operate in promulgating their views.


Wait, so HasBean will come knocking at my door any minute now asking if I've heard the good news? You know, they've already given me £25 worth of free coffee for Christmas AND I've drunk it. I see it all now, so sneaky evil.

Save me CoffeeForums, you're my only hope!


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

Ok, "BS" was harsh. I would like to retract that, in as much as what I was really trying to say was 'over-marketed' and sometimes slightly pretentious and self-aggrandising for me. I do like some of their coffee, some I don't, but I find their approach grates on me. 'style over substance' it seems to me. This is just my opinion, I realise HB fans will disagree. HB are not the worst though.

Also, my comments are aimed at the company as an entity, and it's approach, not any one person who I am certain are all lovely. If anyone from Hasbean is reading though I would like to apologise for my flippant use of "BS", not what I intended and rightly called out by other forums members.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I did try a couple of different beans from Hasbean when I first started out with coffee and I was a bit disappointed by them. In my mind I'd written them off until I had an espresso at Kafe 6/8 a couple of weeks ago which was HBs Jailbreak, which was fantastic. So will be giving them another go.

Back to the OPs original point, I think it boils down to if you think it makes a difference for you. I suppose it's it's all down to your own personal coffee journey.


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