# Questions on my Barista Express



## moultram (Jan 18, 2017)

Hi,

Been having a play around on my new machine today with a range of results, mainly bad! I'm completely new to espresso making but well fairly versed in brewed coffee. With the recommended settings in the manual (Grind setting 8, dose set to 3) I was getting a fast flow of coffee, weak tasting. As well, the pressure gauge was exceeding the recommended maximum bar for espresso. I started getting confused overthinking everything so seeking some insider knowledge!

Would someone familiar with the machine be able to recommend the following things so I can get a good starting place:


Dose in grams of coffee for the non pressurised double shot filter - I'm working with Square Mile Red Brick (A fairly light Espresso Roast)


Grind coarseness dial number


How hard should I be tamping - on a scale of 0-10 with 0 being no tamp and 10 being my full strength

Any other advice appreciated

Thanks


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Hi there. I have a DTP which are fairly similar.

I usually use lighter roasts and tend to stick between 16-17g

When I had a sage grinder I had the burrs set to as fine as they would go and then sit in the espresso range on the dial. I'm not sure of the layout on the BE however @ajohn knows the score with them so hopefully he can offer some help.

With regards to tamping, just stay consistent. Make sure you're comfortable with it and keep things level. Also I would advise using a cocktail stick or something similar to mix up the grounds and makes sure it's evenly distributed before tamping.

Hopefully I haven't told you a load of stuff you already know.


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## moultram (Jan 18, 2017)

Thanks for that joey24dirt some useful tips

Generally the pressure was going too high on the gauge, but as a newbie to it all it's difficult to know which variable I needed to change.

I'll try dosing at 16-17g and hope someone chips in with a suitable grinder setting for that dose, if not do a bit of guess work!

Thanks again


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I haven't much time at the moment. I'd suggest you start as suggested in the manual with a grind setting of 8. Setting the timer is a right pain as it will need changing each time the grind setting is altered.







That's what I did. 2 problems. It takes time for the grinder to settle down and start producing consistent doses and each time the grind setting is changed the time setting will also have to be established again.

The best option really is to set to 8. Set the timer so that this produces a bit too much coffee after tamping and then using the razor tool to set the fill level. I tamp again after that. Or you can weigh beans into the hopper. Again too many initially at least so that the razor tool always removes some. Try and keep that to a light scrape. If you want to weight beans in empty the hopper and then run the grinder until it speeds up noticeably indicating that all of the residual beans have gone. My BE grinder is awaiting a new fibre washer and I have been doing this using a Sage SGP. Doses are consistent to 0.1g and often spot on what went in. They wont be from a totally clean brand new grinder but will be eventually. The BE grinder is essentially the same but reckoned to be restricted to the espresso range. Something I haven't actually checked. I will do some day.

Then tune. Alter the grind setting to get what your after using the same technique to set the filter basket fill level every time. Once that is sorted out note the weight and that can be changed either way but not by much. It depends on the bean. Over filling will weaken the shot. Some beans are denser than others so it's a bit silly to say X grams when X will vary to get the fill level correct. For instance I use the single and strong dark roast beans. The fill have usually bean close to 9.3g. A bean I am currently trying needs 10. 0.7 doesn't sound much but it is in a single.

One strange things in these machines is that the default double shot gives a 25 sec extraction. I'd suggest you use it and see how you get on. You can extract for shorter or longer.

There is a very simple way of see how the pressure gauge should behave. Fit an empty single dual wall filter basket and press the double shot button. You'll see the pressure rise slowly during infusion and then swing to vertical when the pump is running at full whack. This is what you should tune for initially. You may find that the needle swinga past vertical when a grind shows pre infusion pressure. That OK especially if it's still within the espresso range shown on the dial. In some ways the degree of infusion pressure and peak pressure relate to how strong the shot will be so if too strong it can be reduced by setting a coarser grind. A finer grind setting increases it.

Tamping needs to be consistent. What I do is strain a little. Checking on scales that's a bit over 20kg. It's best to check that the tamper is level to the basket before pressing hard and again after. The Sage tamper is good for that - feel the basket around the edge. If a bit out it's possible to correct by applying a bit more pressure. Not good but better than an out of level basket.

This should keep you going for a while. Report back and I may be able to add some more. Using any of the machines well isn't easy and it takes most people some time to master them. Might be worth mentioning what you drink. I drink long blacks - shot run into water. I don't care too much about ratio's and tune mainly on taste but different people do different things. Ratio's are grams of coffee in to grams of fluid out. Typically this might range from 1:2 to 1:3 or even higher in some cases. There's no harm in what ever some one does really but it's best to taste the variations. From memory Sage's manual concentrates on fluid out in a specific time. A single being 30ml and a double 60ml. 1ml weighs 1g. Obviously if some one goes for a 1:2 ratio those numbers can't relate to the baskets supplied. With your double basket you could terminate the flow at 20ml or any other figure you choose. That will alter taste as well but the bulk of it comes out early in the shot. If you coarsen the grind the output per second will go up so for the same shot size the time has to be reduced. Don't get too wrapped up in this area. See what suites you.

John

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## moultram (Jan 18, 2017)

Thanks John, I have even less time as I am about to pop out but I just wanted to say a big thanks and will experiment with info you have given and report back asap.

Thanks again

Mark


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Looking at the Red Brick coffee and taking it as verbatim you should set the BE to it's higher temperature, details in the manual. I'd also preheat the portafilter - run the double shot through it with no coffee in the basket. If you want to try getting the portafilter really hot do the same with the single dual wall basket in. I reckon something inside heats up as well even with an ordinary basket as I often make more than one drink on the trot - no other reason for the 2nd to be stronger. Flushing evens it out. Make 3 and the portafilter will be really hot







that's when I pull mine if I don't preheat. My wife likes weaker coffee so her's gets done first but of late I think she needs the preheat now. Depends on the bean.

Stick with the razor tool and try to get as close as you can to figures they suggest. As you grind finer 25 sec will produce less and less. Eventually coffee will just dribble out rather than getting a flow that starts some time into the pre infusion stage. A grind can be so fine that the machine chokes up and only dribbles when it gets to full pressure.

Pressure gauge - I find myself working at the end of the blue sector or a bit past it. Even at that it still might not meet a 1:2 ratio. Might even be 1:3 or more. This where things vary. They may be using a commercial machine with all sorts in it. Also a high end grinder. Your not. This doesn't mean that there will be anything wrong with the drink. Personally I'm not convinced a high end grinder will make that much difference. There is a theory that large flat burrs give higher taste yields from the same load of grounds where as conical burrs are better for aroma and taste. Pass. I have beat up sound large one to try some day to find out.

So if you drink espresso and 1:3 is coming out and you want a 30ml shot adjust the time to get that. If you want 60ml increase it. I don't look at volume out that closely other than knowing it's always more or less the same thanks to glass mugs but some one who measured it found +/- 5ml on a much more expensive Sage machine with essentially the same grinder. If like me you drink long blacks where the shot is mixed with a relatively large amount of water concentrate on taste rather than volumes. If you add milk as I do vary the amount. I'm inclined to use a lot less of that in the morning.

You can also let the pressure gauge go as high as you like but don't grind so fine that it dribbles. From my playing about there needs to be some flow during infusion even if it's right at the end of it.

Things get more difficult when just grinds weight is used. The razor tool will get things in the right ball park but you may be able to add more or use less. As you use less the puck will get wetter and wetter and more difficult to get the lot out with a single knock / more will be left behind. Add too much and there wont be sufficient room for the grounds to expand so the shot will get weaker. I use the single. There is a point where the puck tends to stick to the shower screen fixed by increasing the weight of the grinds a bit. Other than that some one who drinks milk based may not notice marginal changes.

Timed grinders are great but they can't really be expected to produce exactly the same dose all of the time. One way round that is to check the dose each day or how often is needed. Maintaining 9.3g needs tiny twitches to the knob on the BE from time to time. It's something I got pretty used fairly quickly. The idea is to spot the need for a change before the taste changes noticeably. When I start using some bean I find it needs changing more often initially but then evens out to maybe once or twice a weak. We might make anything from 3 to 8 shots a day. These days I try to keep things consistent via the look of the back of the puck. My favourite is seeing slight signs of the socket in the screw that holds the shower screen in place. If that is too clear reduce the dose, if it's gone or lessened increase the dose - really small twitches of the knob. Works form me so it's what I do. If I was using an under filled basket on purpose I'd try and find some other way of gauging it the same way or weigh as often as is it turned out to be needed.

John

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## moultram (Jan 18, 2017)

Thanks John, a wealth of info there.

I have been pre-heating the portafilter and basket and then quickly drying it before grinding the shot in. I'd read somewhere else to do that. So far I have avoided the razor tool though because read somewhere saying to avoid, but I might try giving it a go now.

Today I was using 17.5 grams coffee for a double shot and grinding at 10 on the dial. Getting pretty good crema and tasted pretty good so reasonably happy. The pressure gauge was shooting to the very top of what is referred to as espresso range and has been doing every shot except one which I did with a medium / dark roast for my girlfriend. I wonder if I need to grind coarser to get the pressure to reduce slightly or not. I'm guessing if it tastes ok not really too important. I haven't been weighing the weight of the espresso after being pulled to check the ratio's but I might now.

I'll have a read in the manual about increasing the temperature, what makes you say that is a good idea for this particular bean?

One more question is what happens if you use a double basket but only pull a single shot from it? A stronger espresso?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Just that the people selling the bean mention a higher temperature. I run mine on the higher temperature setting all of the time. For me it seems to give better results. I switch back on new beans but so far it's always gone back up.

Single from a double basket try it. Many people on here don't use the single basket. I do for pretty large drinks in 400ml mugs and find that the double produces drink which is way too strong. I think it depends on the bean used. As a for instance I have a basket that will hold 14g and just about works but not well at 12g. If I use 12g of the bean I am drinking at the moment I can still taste the most predominant taste 1/2 hr after I have drunk it. I like pretty strong coffee too - say Starbucks / Costa motorway americano with a couple of small splashes on milk. What's dished up in Costa kiosks is usually too weak.

There seems to be an area on the pressure gauge where a lot of water goes into the drip tray. It seems to be some way past the espresso range on the gauge. It's something I am trying to nail down at the moment. Some water always goes to the drip tray but it looks like there is an over pressure valve that dumps water to the drip tray if it gets too high. Like I said though I am not 100% certain and need to check more carefully.

I think the razor tool is a very good idea especially for some one new to the machines. I wasted a lot of time initially by not using it. Since then I have decided it's the quickest way of finding the correct grind for a new bean. It's just too much trouble to adjust the weight of coffee each time the grinder setting is changed. When things taste ok I then switch to weight to see just how much I can get in a basket etc.

John

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## Dumnorix (Dec 29, 2017)

I have owned the BE for 2 years and have recently upgraded to the DB. I tended to weigh out between 18 and 18.5g of beans and grind them manually until the grinder ran empty. That way I could stop every few seconds and shake the portafilter so that it filled more evenly. I tamped at a 3/4 out of 10 and used a grind of between 5 and 8 as shown on the grinding scale depending on the beans and their freshness. The gauge always showed in the top third of the espresso range using this method, but this was where the resulting espresso seemed to taste best (in my opinion at least!) As John said I upped the temperature too and ensured that the portafilter/ filter basket was properly heated before pulling a shot. Hope that helps, but as you say, once you have it to your taste I wouldn't worry too much about the settings.


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## moultram (Jan 18, 2017)

Can't tell you how much I appreciate your help guys, really makes a difference - already producing better tasting shots and saved myself at least a bag of beans getting everything right.


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

There can be an overwhelming number of variables for beginners, i've never owned a BE but am familiar with the machine and have owned a duo-temp pro. In order to produce repeatably good espresso you must know each variable, every time.

Regardless of the BE's timed dosing you still need to be weighing the amount of coffee in your portafilter. If you don't have scales you are going to need some, either a small set to set on the drip tray and a big set to weigh the PF like I do, or a medium sized set of scales that can do both. If you are dosing a double shot it's common practice to start off with 18g of coffee in the basket, you can adjust your dose size once you have one known dose down and dialled, don't go changing grind size and dose size all at once or you'll quickly find yourself drowning in variables and confusion. Also, don't pay attention to the pressure needle when pulling a shot either, the machine is set to run at a fixed pressure with a little low pressure pre infusion at beginning of the shot.

Once you have your dose in your basket, give the pf a few firm taps on the work top or tamping mat to collapse any major air pockets and tamp it. its easy to over complicate tamping, most important thing is to keep it level to get a coffee puck of even density throughout, because of this I strongly recommend do not use the razor tool, you will not know how many grams of coffee is in your basket and will ruin that perfect, evenly dense bed of coffee you achieved with your tamp. More super informative info on tamping here https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista-hustle/how-hard-should-you-tamp

Time your shot from the second you press the button, not from when you first see drops of espresso. Time is important but not as important as your brew ratio, always aim to get out your desired weight and adjust according to taste, not time. Stop the shot when you have got your desired liquid in the cup depending on what brew ratio you choose (Most choose 1:2, so if dosing 18g aim for 36g in the cup usually extracted in around 30s). Always taste your shots, dont make any adjustments before you've tasted that espresso.

Grind size should be adjusted through taste, if the espresso tastes sour and runs through quickly this means it is under extracted and you need to make your grind finer, if the espresso tastes bitter and runs through slowly you need to make your grind coarser, avoid using words like weak/strong to describe the taste as strength is determined by brew ratio ie coffee cannot taste 'strong' .Start off with small adjustments until you get to know the size of the 'steps' in the grind adjustment. You may find the grind size to shift and change as the machine becomes warmer, in order to combat this and keep things consistent it would be worth allowing the machine to heat up for the same amount of time, every time, before grinding your dose.

Good luck.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It's odd how many people who have never been near a razor tool criticise it. Maybe some one might put way too much coffee in a basket and tamp and then razor of loads - once. That might disturb what's underneath. However if they even look at it they will get some idea just how far down a tamped load needs to be and it will remove a problematic amount of coffee without really disturbing what's underneath. In any case if some one tamps again and uses the same pressure it isn't going to tamp what wasn't disturbed. Used with a bit of sense it wont really disturb anything. I'd say it might disturb the surface if a 1mm was scraped off but not as badly as some might think. The problematic part is removing what's been scraped off. There is a sage video showing how to use it






Have to laugh. Looking at how far the tamper went in he appears to have under dosed. There is a depth indicator built into the tamper. He could have dialed more seconds to get more coffee and scraped off to save messing with the timer each time the grinding is changed. The timer is similar to the knob on the BE. It can be set to give an exact dose but that is likely to change over time. On the SGP they claim finer time control and an exact dose every time - really? It needs checking some how now and again. The razor may or may not give a perfect dose but wont be a bad weight to work away from via scales when things are basically ok.

The 2 separate grinder allow grinding to be paused. Make mistake and the only way of stopping them completely seems to be to unplug the grinder. (Based on an SGP) The one on the BE doesn't have that and produces a large mound of grinds in the portafilter. Some can even drop off while grinding. If the portafilter is held in when the grinding actually start it switches to manual mode. If it's just pushed in and released it times. I've bean wondering if pushing it in again while the timer is running pauses it and that it can then be restarted by another push but have my doubts. Anyway tap the portafilter with a mound of grounds and they are likely to go all over the place. They need to be lightly thumbed / fingered down before tamping. Quick and easy once some one has done it a few times but can be messy initially. I really should have to see if it will pause after several kg if beans. I don't think the pause on the other grinders helps anyway unless the grinds a lightly thumbed down when it's paused. The pile in the video doesn't look high enough to me. Air pockets - plenty of air in the grinds yes. I'm currently weigh beans in using an SGP and grinding into the grind can off a hand grinder. The grinds compact due to the increased fall and also again when I put the prortafilter over the can and invert the lot to load the portafilter. Very little mess as the can fits well inside the basket. Turning it all over though can cause the heap to be lop sided.

Ratio's. I did mention them and also trying different methods. However I mentioned using the double shot button and that's default 25 sec shots and tuning with that. This will produce a ratio and that time isn't far off the usual ones. It's a start. If it's changed the ratio will change too. Personally I judge via the taste of the results rather than actually measuring the ratio. The supplier of the OP's beans give some pretty exact figures for tuning. They assume all machines extract the same way and etc. Seems to be far from the real world to me.

Sage could help with the grind spill from the grinder on the BE. It just need a short grinding funnel. I've found that with a little bit of care it's not really a problem and the amount lost is minute. I have seen a complaint about it though. It hasn't put me off the machine and I will continue to mostly use the grinder in it. The other one is for trying new beans. An SGP is completely under utilised for the way I do that.







It came at the right price. Just add a refurb or a return in other words. I'm pretty sure that the previous owner had read on the web about adjusting the outer burr. The only time that is needed is if the grinder can not grind fine or coarse enough. It might have come set that way though. It looks like they are preset some how when they are built and that could go wrong. Try the finest setting just in case. The burrs on my SGP were rubbing so badly that they would have stalled the motor if I hadn't switched it of very quickly.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Ratio's. I did mention them and also trying different methods. However I mentioned using the double shot button and that's default 25 sec shots and tuning with that. This will produce a ratio and that time isn't far off the usual ones. It's a start. If it's changed the ratio will change too. Personally I judge via the taste of the results rather than actually measuring the ratio.


We all judge via taste, but tasting comes after the shot has been made. To have a repeatable datum to use as a basis for adjustment, to employ before you get as far as tasting, ratio is the most effective tool. It also allows you to get back to 'square one' quickly, rather than changing every other parameter as well. It's nice that you can make coffee that you enjoy, but saying "use taste" instead of (rather than in conjunction with) methodical processes is like telling someone who is lost to follow their nose instead of using a map/sat nav.


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

ajohn said:


> It's odd how many people who have never been near a razor tool criticise it. Maybe some one might put way too much coffee in a basket and tamp and then razor of loads - once. That might disturb what's underneath. However if they even look at it they will get some idea just how far down a tamped load needs to be and it will remove a problematic amount of coffee without really disturbing what's underneath. In any case if some one tamps again and uses the same pressure it isn't going to tamp what wasn't disturbed. Used with a bit of sense it wont really disturb anything.
> 
> -


A tamped Puck of coffee is an incredibly fragile thing, even knocking your pf on your group clumsily trying to lock it in is enough to fracture the Puck and cause channeling, inserting an object into the bed and twisting it is going to do even more damage, and tamping over that isn't going to make it any better. If you dosed a known dose into your basket, trimming it off is going to give you an unknown dose, and using the depth of your tamp/depth of puck as an indicator of how much to dose isn't really the type of variable you want to introduce as this can be dependent on roast level.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Rakesh said:


> A tamped Puck of coffee is an incredibly fragile thing, even knocking your pf on your group clumsily trying to lock it in is enough to fracture the Puck and cause channeling, inserting an object into the bed and twisting it is going to do even more damage, and tamping over that isn't going to make it any better. If you dosed a known dose into your basket, trimming it off is going to give you an unknown dose, and using the depth of your tamp/depth of puck as an indicator of how much to dose isn't really the type of variable you want to introduce as this can be dependent on roast level.


I tend to vary the amount I dose dependant on how the bean grinds so I'm at about the right height. I can see how the razor would be useful for finding what the optimal weight for the bean/grind but once you've found the weight (by tareing the empty portafilter & measuring the weight after razoring), there shouldn't be any need for it until you change either the bean or grind.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Rakesh said:


> A tamped Puck of coffee is an incredibly fragile thing, even knocking your pf on your group clumsily trying to lock it in is enough to fracture the Puck and cause channeling, inserting an object into the bed and twisting it is going to do even more damage, and tamping over that isn't going to make it any better. If you dosed a known dose into your basket, trimming it off is going to give you an unknown dose, and using the depth of your tamp/depth of puck as an indicator of how much to dose isn't really the type of variable you want to introduce as this can be dependent on roast level.


You miss the point. To extract effectively the level in the basket needs to be within restricted range also that the razor tool used with a bit of sense DOES not do what you are inferring. It effectively does produce a consistent dose. The weight of that dose will depend on the grinder setting. The other aspect is new users who may never have used any sort of espresso machine before. The manuals mention a range of weights of grinds that can go into the baskets. The double for instance might say 16 to 18g. Depending on bean and grind any number in that range may produce an incorrectly filled basket. The razor tool is just a method of producing a consistent dose in a different fashion that can be used initially before switching to weight. Then comes the problem of getting that weight all of the time.

The setting of the shot timer on the BE will produce some ratio or the other. Given the same basket load etc the ratio will always be the same within pretty small limits. If some one wants to measure that output fine. I'd do it by running the shot into a mug on scales. Say it's wrong by some amount. People can either throw it away or drink it. If anything is changed, grind, fill or shot time they can always go back







providing the remember the numbers.

What people sometimes can't get their head round is that they work in a different way. There are several ways of going about it. The end result is close control of the shot and a drink that suites them.

It's not unusual for people to mention the need to poke various gadgets around in baskets full of grounds to break up clumps. If happy neither of my Sage grinders produce them. The easiest way to get channelling is to under fill the basket but true clumps can do it as well. Far more likely than as the basket is under filled more and more irrespective of if there are or aren't clumps.

Control. I use 9.3g of the bean I have used most. I've drunk kg's of it. If it drops by 0.2g I can taste the difference. Same if it increases so I keep it at 9.3 consistently. I do it via a method that works with this particular bean and some others. I know it works because I weighed every basket for some time after making the adjustment. As it works I just adjust the grind timer knob and don't bother weighing any more.

I'm currently drink a new bean. 10.5g looks to be best for that along with the shot timer I have set. Often I add less milk to my shots on the first one in the morning. For a change I tried more coffee instead so upped it to 10.8g. Too strong. As I am playing with weight I'm weighing beans in and grinding all of them from an empty hopper. As it's a happy Sage grinder what went in is what comes out +/- 0.1g. The scales read to 0.1g which means that they can only read to +/- 0.1g really. If a weight with an 0.05g on the end went in it could produce an 0.1g change around it. I grind into a can when doing it this way so it's easy to check the weight of what came out. I've used about 2/3 of 500g of these beans this way. Some people weigh the entire portafilter to check the grinds weight. I had an odd ball weight come out the other day. Low. When I did my next shot later I noticed that 2 beans where sitting on top of the hopper lock knob. All mentioned in case some one wants to maintain a grinds weight as my usual method is not working so well with this bean. I suspect it's another that would benefit from a finer grind. The machine and basket sizes put a limit and how far that can go.

The taste profile of this one is different quote "an intense coffee with a lingering mocha/nutty/smokey after-taste" lingering really sums it up especially if too strong and I don't get a watery after taste even with weak shots. The one I use most from this supplier states "Bitter, Smokey, Spicy". I get it from some where else that state " earthy, spicy, smoky". It's a pretty popular bean with very low acidity well know for producing a smooth drink especially for people that don't like bitter coffee. The spicy aspect is tricky. It can disappear at some roast levels but my approach to tuning is to note comments like that and achieving it. Another comment on the bean I am currently using from the same supplier is "Dark Chocolate - Walnut - Tobacco" Achieving it requires some imagination and a number of bean types to appreciate what the terms used might mean. In this case there is a taste in one bean that might be called spicy - it comes from India. The other one has a taste that could be described as tobacco - it comes from Cuba. These IMHO apply to drinking rather than sipping tastes - those touches on coffee tasters. They taste pretty weak coffee and if good at it will have very sensitive tongues, Bit like wine tasters. Personally I think it's worth people spending some time on the web finding out what the terms they use can mean in practice. Acidity for instance is an after taste. It can help choose beans when the info is given. Differing roast levels can change things a lot though. This covers what I mean by tuning by taste plus one that suites me.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Then comes the problem of getting that weight all of the time.
> 
> Control. I use 9.3g of the bean I have used most. I've drunk kg's of it. If it drops by 0.2g I can taste the difference. Same if it increases so I keep it at 9.3 consistently. I do it via a method that works with this particular bean and some others. I know it works because I weighed every basket for some time after making the adjustment. As it works I just adjust the grind timer knob and don't bother weighing any more.
> 
> ...


Putting 18g in the basket all the time is not a problem.

Being able to taste a difference in dose of 2% is frankly amazing. Most grinders struggle to repeat doses to +/-0.2g (a pretty fine tolerance). It seems a bit of a stretch to be able to identify the tiny dose causing a change in perceptible flavour with no other information.

If your scales read to 0.1g, they may only be accurate to +/-0.3g (few manufacturers provide specs), repeatability can easily be measured, weigh the same item 10 times & record the weights, find the stdev, correlate to 95% confidence (or weigh 100 times if you have time on your hands).


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I'm using these which are over the top really but have other uses for them

https://www.adamequipment.co.uk/media/docs/Print%20Publications/Data%20Sheets/A4/English/Email-Web/CB-DS-A4-EN.pdf

The ones I bought to go by the coffee machine had problems splitting packages of 40g of beans into a 10 and 2 15's but did have good repeatability. Lots of the cheap ones do but some people who use them feel that they can be damaged very easily.

John

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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

ajohn said:


> You miss the point. To extract effectively the level in the basket needs to be within restricted range also that the razor tool used with a bit of sense DOES not do what you are inferring.


 How does the height of a coffee puck in a basket influence extraction? You're point is the first I have seen that supports the damage of a tamped puck by using a tool such as the razor, also the first I have seen to introduce the variable of no longer grinding according to weight, but to grind a dose according to how it sits in the basket, which to me, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I think you are correct in thinking I may be missing your point here as I struggle to link any of what you are saying to any espresso extraction theory. Can you please elaborate more?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I use the single basket a lot. This usually means getting as much as I can out of a bean. There is a sweet spot where the grounds just have enough room to expand leaving a light impression of the shower screen on the puck. The puck might then tend to stick to the shower screen. Increasing the dose a touch fixes that. Sounds odd but that's what happens. Go too high and taste drops off because the grinds can't expand enough. There is some scope but not much. Go much too low and the puck goes wetter and wetter and there's fare more chance of seeing signs of channelling in the puck. There isn't much scope for going low in the Sage single.

All the razor tool will do is get the level in the right region. I've just used it to set a grinding level for a bean. On this one it set a level which is a touch too low so the puck was a little wet but still came out pretty cleanly. The nice thing about doing it this way is that I didn't have to worry about weight changes as the grind was altered. When I was happy I switched to weight and sorted that out.

There's 2 things really about the razor tool used sensibly. One I've just mentioned - changing the grinder setting and the other is that if some one wanted to they could tune to what it leaves in the basket. Might not produce the perfect shot but it would be pretty close. Far better than guessing and can save a lot of time especially initially and even more for completely new users that have never used an espresso machine before.

Double basket the same - pass I hardly ever use it but the principles should be exactly the same.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> I use the single basket a lot. This usually means getting as much as I can out of a bean.
> 
> -


The amount you can get out of each bean is more limited by your grinder & prep. To get a similar extraction (relative to dose) from each basket you may even need to brew at a longer ratio (weaker) in the single, but the idea is to aim for pretty much the same amount (proportionally, as a % of dose) out from each basket/dose.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I vary what comes out using the BE's shot time. The usual limitation on prep is brew pressure. If that can't do it there is only one other answer. Larger basket difference depending on how far off things are. I now have a 14g that gets wet at about 12g on beans I have used in it. Too strong for the beans I have about me at the moment but may allow me to try a few that wont work out in the single or the double. They would need to have been very weak in the single but on the other hand I could alter the prep for the 14. I have good reason however to feel that this wouldn't work out.

It's also at risk of offending the coffee gods possible to tune in a dual wall pressurised basket. Those are intended to force a certain flow rate irrespective of the grind. They do with typical pre ground coffee and the only control is fill level which behaves as usual. Grind finer and finer and the coffee starts altering the flow rate. The interesting thing is that with pre ground the basket makes sure there is some infusion pressure build up. Making the coffee alter the flow rate as well increases that also the peak pressure. A whole range of tuning options and it can produce a decent drink. Any use - pass, I haven't tried it enough yet.

John

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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

I think when MWJB says limited by your prep he's refering to lazy pseudo methods rather than weighing in and out each time which would provide easily repeatable and sharable "recipes" which mean you can see why you are successful and where you are missing the mark, and fix it.

A poor quality small burred grinder won't help in your prep either (I know you say it makes no difference, but there are many lots sciencey people with magic refractometry machines and years of experience who would disagree with you)

It's probably worth looking at some real published stuff from experts, as you seem to fail to grasp what people are trying to say (it feels a bit like you've rejected the "coffee language" that is spoken- but that means that it is very hard to grasp your meaning or your intent in posting) Scott Rao writes lots of good books, about things like why weighing in and out is important in the pursuit of excellent coffee... We all want to help one another produce the absolute best coffee possible, and whilst it's an art it's also a science.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Missy said:


> A poor quality small burred grinder won't help in your prep either (I know you say it makes no difference, but there are many lots sciencey people with magic refractometry machines and years of experience who would disagree with you)


I haven't said that it makes no difference so please get off my back. What I said was that I am not convinced and intend to find out. I have 4 grinders at the moment. 2 by Sage and 2 others each with different burr sizes. Currently for various reasons I can't use those but will get round to it. Then as I said previously maybe I will change. On the other hand I might on balance for various reason remain with Sage. Depends on what the others do. One has a doser but if I go that way it wont be stopping on.

Actually by now MWJB may have picked up that I am very meticulous about prep with the equipment I have. All I have done in respect to the razor tool is pointed out how it can be use if some one chooses to do that and nothing else. I do use weight in and effectively weight out and have never ever suggested that people shouldn't. In my case as the machine has a shot timer I use that rather than weight out and set on the basis of taste. What's different. Nothing really. I could weigh what comes out if for some reason I needed to but don't. I keep something else constant as well. The amount of water that the shot goes into. The BE has a hot water flow time limit that happens to suite the mugs I use It's a bit low really but ok.








Yeh I might be inclined to use the term ml rather than grams as I would assume that all know that there is very little difference in respect to brewing coffee.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> I haven't said that it makes no difference so please get off my back. What I said was that I am not convinced and intend to find out. I have 4 grinders at the moment. 2 by Sage and 2 others each with different burr sizes. Currently for various reasons I can't use those but will get round to it. Then as I said previously maybe I will change. On the other hand I might on balance for various reason remain with Sage. Depends on what the others do. One has a doser but if I go that way it wont be stopping on.
> 
> Actually by now MWJB may have picked up that I am very meticulous about prep with the equipment I have. All I have done in respect to the razor tool is pointed out how it can be use if some one chooses to do that and nothing else. I do use weight in and effectively weight out and have never ever suggested that people shouldn't. In my case as the machine has a shot timer I use that rather than weight out and set on the basis of taste. What's different. Nothing really. I could weigh what comes out if for some reason I needed to but don't. I keep something else constant as well. The amount of water that the shot goes into. The BE has a hot water flow time limit that happens to suite the mugs I use It's a bit low really but ok.
> 
> ...


I appreciate that you are meticulous about the hardware, but that has already been designed & executed. You now own it. Your (& our) task is now to use that hardware to design & engineer the cup of liquid beverage. In other words, push a known weight of beverage through a known weight of coffee dose, in a reasonable timeframe. If we have these 3 things, then we can converse, as we have parameters in universal units.

The problem with using time to drive a shot, is that if you stick to one time, your weight in the cup will vary wildly. Then so will your extraction, which is mass transfer (g), biggest driver for this is, at a given grind setting, brew ratio (beverage in g/dose in g).

Are you saying that you brew into a vessel marked in individual ml? Even if you do & have confirmed that it is correctly calibrated, how do you deal with identifying meniscus given varying depths of crema, or parallax error when looking through the glass wall of the vessel? 1ml of water weighs 1g at 20C. We are hopefully getting coffee, not water, out of the machine, it is also hopefully somewhat warmer than 20C.

You understand dimensions, mass & tolerances, I don't understand how you see their need when designing PF pressure gauge adaptors, but play fast & loose with them when it comes to the main event (the drink itself). You would mate a nut & bolt by having matching diameter & thread pitch, rather than by saying you need a bolt 'about as fat as my finger'. Fingers vary, even on the same hand, but an M10, 25mm long machine screw with a standard 1.5mm pitch thread is a known & pretty universal datum.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn;561056
[IMG alt=":)" said:


> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/uploads/emoticons/smile.png.386586528d215eb32622a010fd075179.png[/IMG] Yeh I might be inclined to use the term ml rather than grams as I would assume that all know that there is very little difference in respect to brewing coffee.
> 
> John
> 
> ...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

See post #45 page 5...

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?18246&p=204474#post204474


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Thanks MWJB. I don't want to get into arguments going on the number of posts and views in that thread. I didn't say that there was no difference only that it's small also suggesting that it's not relevant to brewing coffee. IMHO of course. With this sort of thing there is always a question of how far to go. Reading a few posts for instance and hoping I've done the sums correctly 1ml of CO2 weighs 2ug and that's at 0C and at 1 bar. Even water isn't really 1g / ml and also varies with temperature. Believe it or not that can matter in some fields.

I do happen to have a precision burette that can measure 30ml to 0.1m and even estimate 1/2 of those. No parallax errors due to the way these should be used. If some one wants a figure I suppose I could but other factors will change it so no point really.

Anyway. Since some one complained about the use of ml I have tried not to use it. However many places such as Sage manuals do use it.

John

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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

Accidental post. Oops.


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