# Radio 4 - The Long View - Coffee



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Programme contrasting the rise of coffee houses in 17c with the rise of artisan coffee shops of the present. Reasonably interesting. Has Jay Rayner on, surprise, surprise droning on how third wave roasters are ruining his beloved espresso. Yawn.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Jay Rayner doesn't think third wave roasters and outlets offering such roasts will last in the long term. There's a surprise - not.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I'd like to put Jay Rayner in a room with Matt Perger....


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Jay Rayner doesn't think third wave roasters and outlets offering such roasts will last in the long term. There's a surprise - not.


I'm not sure that he may not be right. I think that there is a risk of market saturation and that people's tastes and what is fashionable will alter over time and there may then be a significant shrinking of the market. One thing that makes my eyes water is how much I am sometimes asked to pay for a simple double espresso. If I were less discerning then I might well decide not to bother! I know that quality comes at a price but I see (especially in London) lots of fads come and go and I do not know whether artisan coffee may be one of them!

Just my twopenn'orth!


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I disagree, I think more traditional burnt espresso roasts wont last over time.

I tried coffee many times when I was younger, from a variety of sources, but it wasn't until I tried a decent third wave roast (Australia Skybury from HasBean) that I fell in love with coffee, realised it could offer so much more and started geeking out.

More and more roasters are opening up every day, and places are switching to these independent places instead of old style bulk stale beans. Sure there is a long way to go in training these people but at least things are improving slowly.


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

Just come back from Northern Italy where the roasts are traditional supposed to be lighter than those in the South. They were all far, far darker than trendy roasters in this country.


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

Have just listened... I have met that Matthew Green, he runs an organisation called "Unreal City Audio" and he organises themed London tours... I went on his coffee tour, and it was quite entertaining...

I was quite surprised to observe that St. Michaels Alley was about 50ft from where I worked for 10 years, but I never knew of its significance. Matthew was late starting and I stood and watched cranes putting some finishing flourishes on the building that had replaced the P&O building where I had worked.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

fatboyslim said:


> I'd like to put Jay Rayner in a room with Matt Perger....


Someone would end up being run through an EK43.


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

aaronb said:


> ...traditional burnt espresso roasts...


What tradition would that be?


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

I don't think that the "Third wave" coffee revolution will die out but as BD sort of intimated, it may well reach a peek saturation point, even out in the sticks of Essex there have been a few new "Artisan Coffee" shops open, some have been rubbish and that's being polite, and some have already closed. maybe then after the media hype and attention has calmed down we will hopeful be left with a post hysteria level of good coffee shops and rosters!!

the fact that there are so many news articles we are likely to get people "have an opinion" just to get air time or column space.

Read the recent article in the Times when Maxwell Colonna-Dashwood was being interviewed about the new third wave coffee phenomenon, and even some of what was said there was a little righteous!! or could just be my interpretation?

Cant see some of the the more popular roasters that most of us on this site use disappearing over night, some have been for long enough


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Can I just make it perfectly clear that given we are on coffee forum , full of obsessive men, that the word trendy or fashionable in no way can be applied in any way shape or form to any of the things we do or consume, be they light or dark roasts , a type of grinder or machine ..









Before this dives off into darth vader v Luke sky walker thread perhaps we could all talk about the brown liquid and beans we like for a change , what is really wowing you and why. Not what isn't and doesn't ...wow you that is .....

Like ebony and ivory lets live side by side near our grinders in perfect harmony ...


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Can I just make it perfectly clear that given we are on coffee forum , full of obsessive men, that the word trendy or fashionable in no way can be applied in any way shape or form to any of the things we do or consume, be they light or dark roasts , a type of grinder or machine ..


Speak for your self











Mrboots2u said:


> Before this dives off into darth vader v Luke sky walker thread perhaps we could all talk about the brown liquid and beans we like for a change , what is really wowing you and why. Not what isn't and doesn't ...wow you that is .....
> 
> Like ebony and ivory lets live side by side near our grinders in perfect harmony ...


your not a Sith lord are you?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If I was I wouldn't reveal myself as one ( at this time )

Mwhaaaaaaaaaaa


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

I think the '3rd wave roasters' will settle down into a particular niche - I know very few people who actually prefer the lighter/brighter roasts to more familiar coffee-flavoured coffee, but maybe that comes down to how I choose my friends.

On the other hand, I think the 3WRs have done an invaluable service to the coffee industry as a whole, raising standards enormously and making people think about what it is they are actually drinking. Pushing the coffee boundaries is nothing but good, as long as they don't imply that if you don't like fruity bright coffees it is because you are uneducated/unsophisticated/uncool - it really is just a matter of personal taste.

Sadly, many 3W coffee shops have fallen into a stereotype - stripped-wood tables, minimum décor, some expensive sandwiches, tattooed barista, La Marzocco and a pervading atmosphere of studied self-importance has become a little tedious. It should be a pleasure, not a religion.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

RoloD said:


> Sadly, many 3W coffee shops have fallen into a stereotype - stripped-wood tables, minimum décor, some expensive sandwiches, tattooed barista, La Marzocco and a pervading atmosphere of studied self-importance has become a little tedious. It should be a pleasure, not a religion.


If you look at the origins of coffee, religion played a major role in it. Then we had the coffee houses of the 17th century where the great and the good of the arts and business world met to gossip and do business. Lloyds insurance sprang up from a coffee house. Perhaps the image you describe is some form of post modern ironic statement - then again, perhaps not


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

RoloD said:


> I think the '3rd wave roasters' will settle down into a particular niche - I know very few people who actually prefer the lighter/brighter roasts to more familiar coffee-flavoured coffee, but maybe that comes down to how I choose my friends.


I'd have never got in to coffee to same the degree if it wasn't for a light roast Aeropress I happened upon one day in my local cafe.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I am beginning to realise that before I decide whether I like a coffee or not , I have to have tasted it when it has been extracted correctly , often this is not the case in alot of cafés and third wave or not third wave ..

But I like all kinds of tastes , dependant on my moods , it would be a boring world , if there wasn't the choice we have and if we all liked the same thing.....

Certainly it would seem we would have less to discuss on the forum for one ....


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## ShortShots (Oct 2, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> I am beginning to realise that before I decide whether I like a coffee or not , I have to have tasted it when it has been extracted correctly , often this is not the case in alot of cafés and third wave or not third wave ..
> 
> But I like all kinds of tastes , dependant on my moods , it would be a boring world , if there wasn't the choice we have and if we all liked the same thing.....
> 
> Certainly it would seem we would have less to discuss on the forum for one ....


Quite entertaining to take the Refractometer with you to each cafe and watch their faces as you measure EY's at their tables...


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

There is a mystery in coffee, I wonder how they used to roast and brew their coffee in the old coffee houses of 17th century London , I am sure it would have been an even more expensive than it is today, but obviously it carried the same magic and attraction as it does today.

Wether you like Third wave coffee or not , it generates people sourcing good coffee and inspires people to be innovative in roasting and extraction methods, helps allows and makes me feel like a barista at home ( albeit not a very good one) and with the help of the forum, gives me a great insight to the mystery surrounding coffee all its foibles and to meet some truly unselfish and generous like minded coffee enthusiasts on a similar journey. And with some of the topics and off topics and opinions that we all banter with each other i feel nothing has really changed from those old coffee houses, except the coffee is Centre stage and the medium of communication is well ur........different!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ShortShots said:


> Quite entertaining to take the Refractometer with you to each cafe and watch their faces as you measure EY's at their tables...


Most of them don't know what they are dosing or what their output is so you wouldn't be able to do it...


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## ShortShots (Oct 2, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Most of them don't know what they are dosing or what their output is so you wouldn't be able to do it...


'Hello, I am the auditor from your coffee supplier, please weigh your dose and output and provide me with a free espresso...' I haven't tried it yet, but might be fun


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Most of them don't know what they are dosing or what their output is so you wouldn't be able to do it...


youre re just worried about the cost of each time you use it


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ShortShots said:


> 'Hello, I am the auditor from your coffee supplier, please weigh your dose and output and provide me with a free espresso...' I haven't tried it yet, but might be fun


Worth a try .........

I'll make some kind of badge and possibly a hat

I bet some of them wouldn't even have scales

Send me some of your best shots mate, in an airtight container with dose in and out


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> youre re just worried about the cost of each time you use it


Espresso is the costly part due to the filters ...

To use it on brew doesn't cost .....


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

ShortShots said:


> 'Hello, I am the auditor from your coffee supplier, please weigh your dose and output and provide me with a free espresso...' I haven't tried it yet, but might be fun


*Hand Over Your Pathetically Roasted Beans - Nobody expects the Third Wave Inquisition *


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Always considered myself more " new wave " than third wave ....

Coffee comes in spurts though ...( obscure new wave joke )


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Always considered myself more " new wave " than third wave ....
> 
> Coffee comes in spurts though ...( obscure new wave joke )


What the (Richard) Hell are you wittering about Martin?









I cleave to the "permanent wave"....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Spector of bad haircuts follows me around


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Most of them don't know what they are dosing or what their output is so you wouldn't be able to do it...


You can always measure TDS and go with that, you don't need to know what dose or water volume was used as you are not trying to fix their problems (if there is any).


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