# Mahlkonig K30 vs Eurika Zenith 65E



## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

This is a question for the 'tech' orientated guys.

*Why is the K30 rated better than the Zenith?*

My question arises having recently read up some more info on aspects of what leads to a good / better grinder.

My current understanding is that in principle, the larger the burrs the more consistent the output - this leads to better flavour in the cup and we all like that!

This increase in size of burr is often matched with a slower rotational speed. Again, this is something that has been advocated as being better for grinding coffee and is reflected in the conclusion above.

The two grinders mentioned are both 65mm flat burr grinders. However, the K30 rotates at 1420RPM, while the 65E rotates at 1290RPM.

So why has the K30 been suggested as being better than the 65E? The difference apparently being "night and day" as one recent poster labeled it (not saying this is wrong, but so far this doesn't make sense).

Simply applying the *burr size* and *rotation speed* '*rules*' using the info mentioned above, surely the results should be the other way round? I.e., the 65E better than the K30.

One thing that I am loosely aware of, but do not quite know how to factor in is the motor's power.

I can not seem to find facts relating to 'power' of the K30. I have found that the power *consumption *of the K30 is stated as 470-850W (assumedly 470 empty vs 850W loaded?), where as on test the 65E was 294w empty (No results were given for the 65E under load). So based on the lower power consumption rating of the K30, it looks like 470W for the K30 vs the 294W of the 65E....

Is it a fair assumption then that due to the 'whack' the K30 can deliver, the rotational speed is less effected by the resistance of the beans being ground, thus provides a more consistent grind? Hence taking 4s per 14g dose compared with around 10s for the 65E...

Is that difference as mentioned above (consumption difference of 180w unloaded) going to make that much difference....really????

I hope I am answering my own question by trying to explain to you avid coffee nuts where my thought process has taken me, but I would like some clarification, if anyone can offer it.

Thanks in advance


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

One has burrs made by Ditting/Mahlkonig , one has burrs made by someone else ( NS? )

These may have different geometry an alignment , they not may , ive not tested either of them .

I dont even know if one is better than the other .............All i can really do is point you at potential differences in manufacturer and design, that may explain why some people rate one more than the other ....Plsu the zenith hasn't been around as long.....

Mahlkonig sponsor competitions with these grinders ( up until this year ) so their brand is more prevalent .....make of that what you will ....


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The way the k30 is made and the parts involved play a significant part in price difference, the bytes are key here, ditting make the best burrs, they are more precise than others, the rule of bigger is better, is a general rule of the that does not take into account the performance of the k30 and the versalab, it is a generalisation that across manufacturers the bigger burr the better the grinder which of you take Mazzer as an example is certainly the case, it is the reason that I want you to see the grinder in action and taste the surrender in the cup. All a very good questions though


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

The suggestion here must be a side by side comparison, of course using the same beans, then the night and day statement will be obvious or not.

Ian


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I don't consider it night and day, it will add a complexity that will be missing from the zenith and it will perform better but that is it.


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

65e also potentially retains a little more than the K30 just by virtue of it having a longer shute path? Unless both cleared out completey on a blind test this surely would have an impact dependant on time since last grind.

Would go more with the difference in burrs providing a change in flavour as doubt they have the same profiles etc.

Hope of help, John


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

From a vague distant memory of having one , my k30 was about 1 g ish for purge , dont take this as gospel though ..

Plus one of Coffeechap's comments re "night and day" . most changes in grinder and burrs can be percieved by most as quite subtle in the cup , and are barista skill dependant ....


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> my k30 was about 1 g ish for purge


retention according to Mahlkonig is 3-5g


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Purge is different to retention as the coffee that goes stale the quickest, sits in the exit chute, where air will deteriorate it quicker than the coffee in the grind path behind it, hence the second purge


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

But given the fact that day to day you'd want to remove the retained grinds in the morning (or time of first coffee anyway), then surely, seeing as retention is the greater of the two values, then to purge 5g would remove both the oxidized beans in the exit chute as well as the retained grinds...

surely you don't mean to purge 1g of beans from within day use. They can't go stale within that time....?

Or am I simply missing the point here?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sorry I meant 1 second purge....


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

so thats a touch under 2g going by Mahlkonigs' suggested 7g in 4s


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

You should be purging avert time you leave that grinder for a few hours, the first couple of grams will be stake by then


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

While this is now getting silly, I've just been given the option of a Compak K10 (doser version) for £500 (1yr old).... My head is screaming at me "no contest" but as many of you can tell I've indecisive and have upgraditis at the moment....

Experiences and opinions welcomed... The two grinders (K30 and K10) seem to have been compared a lot online but with inconclusive results.... anyone here used both?

P.s. your advice on here has been invaluable thus far, so thank you all in advance...


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

If you don't decide to buy the K10 at that price - pass it on to the forum - think there would be a long queue.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> If you don't decide to buy the K10 at that price - pass it on to the forum - think there would be a long queue.


Especially after a certain rave review


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

its on gumtree


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Buy the k10 you wont loose money on it ( caveat that it works and is in good condition )

If you dont like it sell it on here for the same cash ...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

no brainer k10 will definitely give you a different dimension, it is a doser though. I have owned and used them both and currently have an e10 as one of my preferred grinders, go for the k10 and let someone else have this cheap k30


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

I understand that both the Compak and the Mahlkonig represent an upgrade, but out of interest, what put you off your Zenith?

Might be some useful feedback for potential buyers.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

NickdeBug said:


> I understand that both the Compak and the Mahlkonig represent an upgrade, but out of interest, what put you off your Zenith?


Nothing was wrong. It was always a sideways step from the super jolly, rather than an upgrade. I do like it, but upgraditis is a disease....

CoffeeChap, thank you for the honest 'go for it'. As such I will cross my fingers that the K10 comes off as its a day or so until I can get it! So please do re-open bids on the K30. I'll put a reply on your for sale post just to let people know too.... Again, thank you for the perseverance upon my questioning....

I will give an an update either way, hopefully of joyous celebrations that I love the K10 and have a 10day old 65e for sale, or otherwise I'll be sticking with the 65e as tbh, if it wasn't for this disease (upgraditis) I'd be happy...

Maybe be ibuprofen would help....? Lol


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## Olliehulla (Feb 26, 2013)

dibs on the 65e pls (subject to agreeing price etc)


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

But beware that unless you modify the exit path (like mine has been - rather expertly done by Xpenno I might add) you will find the K10 also retains a fair bit also.

I can get out exactly what I put into my K10 with nothing left hanging about to get stale. You wont achieve that with a stock/unmodified one


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

CamV6 said:


> But beware that unless you modify the exit path (like mine has been - rather expertly done by Xpenno I might add) you will find the K10 also retains a fair bit also.
> 
> I can get out exactly what I put into my K10 with nothing left hanging about to get stale. You wont achieve that with a stock/unmodified one


Thanks for the heads up. I was aware that there would be a bit of retention but it's good to know you've managed to get it sussed. So long as my purchase transpires then I may be in touch if that's ok?

How do you find the K10 out of interest?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

bongo said:


> Thanks for the heads up. I was aware that there would be a bit of retention but it's good to know you've managed to get it sussed. So long as my purchase transpires then I may be in touch if that's ok?
> 
> How do you find the K10 out of interest?


Read the thread he posted on it recently


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

bongo said:


> This is a question for the 'tech' orientated guys.
> 
> *Why is the K30 rated better than the Zenith?*
> 
> ...


I can't offer a clarification but can say this much. The power of the motor is completely irrelevant to grind quality as any motor (within reason) will deliver whatever power is absorbed at the burrs. And that depends on the design of the burr, type of bean and the coarseness of the grind. As long as the motor rating is sufficient so it does not overheat, that is all that is needed.

The 65E is rated at 500W, which means it is rated to deliver that power either continuously, or over a defined time frame. When running unloaded it will not be delivering anywhere near 294W. A grinder should spin freely and very little power is needed when freewheeling. I would guess that power of this order of magnitude is produced under normal grinding and if needed under no load then something is very wrong indeed.

As for the quoted speed difference between the two grinders, I'd say it is more down to the conditions under which different manufacturers quote. Anyway, I can't see a few rpm faster or slower having any bearing on grind quality. After all the same grinders working in the US spin 20% faster than here.

If there is a difference than it is not due to the rated power of the motor.


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## goodq (Oct 10, 2011)

I can't praise this grinder enough. So far it has been great and made making consistent shots much easier. The timer is REALLY accurate. I spoke with their service team here in the UK and they are a very helpful bunch.

Still yet to do a side by side with other grinders while measuring TDS (I'll get there soon I hope).

One down side is that this grinder struggles with certain beans if you are using VST baskets (I confirmed this with their service rep). I have calibrated the grinder to find the zero point and yet I am still very close to the finest setting (0) to get the flow I am after.

On retention: before I bought the grinder I saw this video

[video=youtube;aEEe-CBid9Q]






I recently measured this myself what the retention is and my numbers came close to the ones stated by Mahlkonig (4g). I set my single dose button at 1.1 seconds for flushing purpose.

One thing to note though, rumour has it that Mahlkonig are coming with a new K30 design which they say will have vertical burrs and other attributes taken from the EK43 so one might want to hold for a while and see if what they come up with.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Are those green beans he is grinding in there?

Aren't they much tougher/inadvisable to grind?


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

they are grindz.... for cleaning our the grinder

see http://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/grindz-grinder-cleaner-430g


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

goodq said:


> I can't praise this grinder enough. So far it has been great and made making consistent shots much easier. The timer is REALLY accurate. I spoke with their service team here in the UK and they are a very helpful bunch.
> 
> Still yet to do a side by side with other grinders while measuring TDS (I'll get there soon I hope).
> 
> ...


Rumour is true.......about updated k30 design


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Rumour is true.......about updated k30 design


Links to verify rumours?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

bongo said:


> they are grindz.... for cleaning our the grinder
> 
> see http://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/grindz-grinder-cleaner-430g


Ahhh, lol I have not used them before so had no idea they looked like that!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Links to verify rumours?


No link , verbal conversation, overheard in a cafe

Source is a good one though


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## goodq (Oct 10, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> No link , verbal conversation, overheard in a cafe
> 
> Source is a good one though


Same here, no link but I would believe this source. I tried and tried and tried to get a date out of the convo without any luck.

Anyhow if someone is planning on buying a K30 for home then its pointless looking for a new one (quite a lot of used ones popping up on ebay). If your looking at a used K30 then I would recomend you find one that is the WBC version with the changes made after the many complaints they got on clumping (see here http://www.mahlkoenig.com/file/download/default/id/3573)

You can purchase this update from Mahlkonig (very easy to do) but it then adds up since most likely you would change the burrs and then add this update (might as well buy a new one)


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