# So you're in a restaurant/cafe...



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I'm almost reaching the point of just not bothering ordering any sort of espresso-based drink in cafes/restaurants because they are consistently terrible... well, 19 out of 20 are. Even in expensive restaurants.

As someone who recognises and appreciates good espresso, if you know you're going to get a bad one do you still order it or just do without? (I've stopped complaining about them - turns out it doesn't change anything.)


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Just accept the reality. YOU make a better cup of coffee than anyone on the high street, why, because you care about the quality of what you are drinking.


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## profspudhed (Mar 18, 2011)

yes for some reason i still buy them and i still wince when i take the first sip, im blaming you lot, i used to enjoy them!


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

I'll generally order an espresso after a meal if it's available. But I have no qualms in sending a bad one back (and not paying for it) - I'd not accept corked wine, so why should I put up with bad espresso? But it doesn't seem to do any good - there's seldom been any discernible improvement on return visits.

Given the public's shift in knowledge of coffee, I am totally perplexed that restaurants don't up their quality. It's easy profit.


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## sandykt (Dec 3, 2009)

I agree bad coffee should be sent back. I have in the past taken coffee back only to be back chatted by the "barista". I stood my ground and got a replacement which was much better.


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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

I very very rarely drink coffees at restaurants unless I've had a good review in advance - it's not worth bringing down the experience of the meal...


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

That's exactly the way that I feel, Roland, but by the end of the evening I'm generally gasping for an espresso fix.

And this is why I don't understand how good restaurants can totally ignore the quality of their coffee. It's usually the last item of the evening, and for that reason (to me, at least) it carries the weight of defining the quality of the evening. I view serving bad coffee at the end of a meal as the culinary equivalent of the front-of-house staff abusing you as you leave the premises. However good an experience you've had up to that point, it's ruined by a simple lack of care at the final moment. Given the care that management will lavish on their choice of cutlery, place settings etc, and the wine list, it just defies logic to have such a cavalier attitude to coffee.

I wonder if we should start a movement to link the quality of the tip to the quality of the coffee! ;>)))


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

vintagecigarman said:


> I wonder if we should start a movement to link the quality of the tip to the quality of the coffee! ;>)))


That's a damn good idea

We should at least make our feelings known to the staff and management of such places

Until they hear it from a number of people they are unlikely to sit up and take notice


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

vintagecigarman said:


> I wonder if we should start a movement to link the quality of the tip to the quality of the coffee! ;>)))


That gives me an idea









OK, I've started a Facebook Page called "Send Back Bad Coffee". If you use FB, please consider clicking "Like" on it.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Send-Back-Bad-Coffee/205244482849271?ref=ts#!/pages/Send-Back-Bad-Coffee/205244482849271?sk=info

(short URL will follow when we get 25 people)

The goal is to encourage better quality espresso and coffee in cafes and restaurant. It's time for the owners, managers and staff to give their coffee offering the same care and attention they give to their other food & drink offerings.

Sending it back is just the beginning. Fans of the page will hopefully suggest creative new ways to help the movement gather momentum.

On Tripadvisor I recently wrote a bad review of a fine-dining restaurant because they got the food and service wrong on my wedding anniversary. The owner emailed my saying he was devastated by the review (it appears right at the top of their Tripadvisor page) and would be taking steps to investigate the mismanagement of our evening. When appropriate, why not use this same approach for somewhere serving bad coffee if they don't take steps to make it better?

I'm planning to open a cafe next year. If I serve bad coffee I want my customers to tell me. Send it back. I want the coffee I serve to be Three Michelin Star standard.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

hehe Glenn got in before me


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## marbeaux (Oct 2, 2010)

I blame the espresso machine. 50 years ago for example, I used to go regularly to my favourite restaurant and finish with a Brazil Santos coffee and with the Waiter floating fresh cream on top.

Brings back happy memories.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Looking from the other side, how many restaurants have you been in and actually enjoyed the coffee they serve? We could perhaps maintain some sort of list of the ones that get it right, which serves as an incentive for other places to get on the list and a sign that it is possible to serve great coffee at the end of a meal.

To be honest, I'm not holding out much hope. If 95% or more of 'coffee shops' in this country can't make an espresso that I'd like to drink then expecting restaurants to might be expecting a bit much!

I suppose the frustrating thing is that they tend to have all the equipment, so all they need is to make sure it's all clean, buy some fresh beans and make sure the grind is somewhere approaching the right place.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

lookseehear said:


> Looking from the other side, how many restaurants have you been in and actually enjoyed the coffee they serve? We could perhaps maintain some sort of list of the ones that get it right, which serves as an incentive for other places to get on the list and a sign that it is possible to serve great coffee at the end of a meal.


http://www.beanhunter.comallows readers to write reviews of coffee-selling establishments. http://www.cosycoffeeshops.co.uk is another.

I like the sites, but the main issue is that a bad review on here won't spur many managers into improving things, as the site's readership isn't going to be particularly large as it's mainly coffee lovers rather than 'normal people' (you know what I mean







)

Also, I think people mostly use them to identify good coffeeshops, whereas what is really needed is a way to single out bad ones. Not to attack them, but to prompt improvement.

It would help if sites like Toptable had a section for scoring drinks. At the moment they are limited to this:


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

In Birmingham I have had coffees in many restaurants, the better ones I have come across was Turners Of Harbourne & this was a generic 'organic coffee blend'. You pay £4.50 for double espresso, latte etc, however you get petit-fours for the entire table even if you only order one!

If michelin star level dining I would expect the highest quality and would have no issues sending it back!


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## Freeforever (Feb 3, 2011)

I must be one of the only people on here who loves a proper coffee and invests in all the equipment etc. But is still more than happy to drink instant or coffee from restaurants etc. Unless its reeeally bad. But I'm just weird


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## CoffeeClassics (Apr 19, 2011)

count us in!


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

Well the thread got me thinking about memorable coffees that I have had, I am not going to mention any of the shockers that I have encountered bar one.

1. The only coffee in recent times in the UK that properly hit the spot when out was at Rick Steins cafe in Padstow.

2. koffie verkeerd in a small market town in Brabant, served at 10 am with an unexpected shot of spirits on the side and a freshly baked biscuit.

3. Delicious Cafe con leche served by two elderly ladies in their small cafe in an out of the way fishing village in Tenerife

4 Wonderfully smooth afternoon coffee in Kenya with a caffeine hit of scary potential made in a huge Burco boiler sort of thing. If you planned for more than one cup, you had to ensure immediate access to the loo as the hit caused a degree of bowel urgency. a daily pastime when out there was to watch for the uninitiated making a headlong rush out of the door after two cups

The worst one ever was in a roadside place in Georgia, one sip and we were out of there and kept going until we found a Waffle house for an ok mug and a steak breakfast.


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## Zouche (Jan 16, 2011)

Well that has my 'like' on Facebook!

Reminds me of a time I went for a meal at a restaurant in Birmingham and the end of meal latte was atrocious. When I complained, the waitress admitted there was no one in the restaurant that knew how to work the machine...! They let me make my own and one for my friend, involving a short lesson for the staff on how to operate an espresso machine. One way to get free coffees I suppose!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Wow! That's hilarious!! Very unusual for the waitress to admit it, or even realise that knowing where the buttons are isn't the same as knowing how to use it.


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## Zouche (Jan 16, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> Wow! That's hilarious!! Very unusual for the waitress to admit it, or even realise that knowing where the buttons are isn't the same as knowing how to use it.


Yes, it was a strange evening! I think because it was a quiet weekday evening they were happy for me to show them how to do it... The coffee they originally brought me was in a good sized latte cup and seemed to be about 1/2 extraction and 1/2 'warm' milk! Tasty!


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

Way to go Zouche, I have had the thought in my head "would you like me to show you how to do that properly" but never the confidence to follow the thought with words or actions in case I blew the gig.


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## Zouche (Jan 16, 2011)

DonRJ said:


> Way to go Zouche, I have had the thought in my head "would you like me to show you how to do that properly" but never the confidence to follow the thought with words or actions in case I blew the gig.


True, but things really could not have been any worse!!


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## Mr8ean (May 8, 2011)

Interesting reading. Can you define what you look for in a good espresso and indeed what you're receiving?

It'd help any starter baristas out there (me) and maybe improve the quality of the coffee you buy.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

I had a mental block today, I had to wait in the local hospital for 30 minutes for a impromtu appointment.

A Costa franchise induced me to try a latte, I completely forgot my previous experiences and asked for 2 shots in medium cup. I jokingly asked the server if she did latte art, a dog turd would not have been looked at as repulsive as I was. I asked for the coffee to be put in the cup first, another look, coffee in then milk thrown in with the speed of a F1 driver.

Presentation factor nil.

Taste was just above warm milk, I had forgotten that Costa gradually reduce their shot size, it seems on a regular basis.

I would not give them the extra profit of another shot so I put the £2.40 down to my stupidity and left the concoction on the table.

Question, is it the fact that I've got more discerning in my coffee drinking or that the coffee providers have just become complacent in an easy market.

Ian


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Well first of all, I'm a starter barista too. But it doesn't take long to realise that what you make at home is better than most of the stuff in cafes.

For my part I just want something that isn't worse than the espresso I brew at home. So it's just as much what I'm NOT looking for as it is what I'm looking for. When I order a double espresso I'm not looking for the following, but too often I get one or several of them:

- Too much volume. Badly trained baristas seem to want to give you value for money, and think the way to do that is to give you more in the cup. So they let the shot run and run, and what you end up with is a horribly bitter drink and lots of it.

- A 10 second pull. Maybe I've got into bad habits, but I often find myself watching the barista and counting, then groaning when they stop it after 10-ish seconds. This is related to

- The wrong grind. You can see it straight away as they pull the shot and two 5cm thick streams of of light orange juice come bursting out of the group head like the genie stuck in the lamp for 1000 years.

- The old, stale beans used in (seemingly) 99% of places mean you end with a flat looking jet black soup - no crema - and it just tastes a bit rotten.

I'd prefer if they knew the ideal brew parameters for the espresso they are using, but if I could tell the barista what I'd like, to give them a clue, it would include:

- a demitasse cup or glass

- approx 2oz of espresso

- Served to me *immediately *after extraction, whilst the crema is still there for me to taste

- At least 5mm of crema, preferably a little more

- Proper extraction, not too strong or weak, not too bitter. Just to the bean justice.

- Freshly roasted beans. Maybe we home baristas are spoiled here, but it would be good if cafes would place smaller and more frequent orders rather than filling their stock room shelves with 2-6 month old beans.

None of this is asking too much, or coffee snobbery, and more than expecting your pint of lager in the pub to not smell of vinegar.

It's just a matter of training (barista AND management) and the barista having pride in their work.

Send Bad Coffee Back. It's the best way to provide feedback and hopefully encourage change.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Eyedee said:


> Question, is it the fact that I've got more discerning in my coffee drinking or that the coffee providers have just become complacent in an easy market.
> 
> Ian


I think it's both, Ian. But if this slideshow is anywhere near correct the general public might be following your lead, which may force the quality on the high street to improve.

What's The Deal With The Coffee Market

BTW, here's a great quote from Costa's website. Funny how there are standards in Advertising (Legal, Honest, Decent, Truthful), but in Marketing you can say whatever you like:



> Every time a Costa barista makes you coffee, one all-important extra ingredient goes into your cup - coffee expertise. Every single barista in every single Costa store has been professionally trained in the art of coffee by qualified coffee experts, at our coffee academy. Coffee making is an exact art, you see.
> 
> Take the espresso for instance. Our baristas are trained to make sure their grind produces 30ml of espresso in 20 seconds. If it takes less than 20 seconds, the flavour won't be perfect and we'll start again. Our coffee machines are also checked meticulously at least three times a day to ensure both the grind and coffee dose are just right. These are just some of the quality measures we demand from all our baristas.


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## Coffeelogicuk (Apr 30, 2011)

We find that a lot of commercial customers just want the machine to do the job, but have no idea how involved making a great coffee can be. They just tend to follow a trend set by the big players which is: big cups full of something made by part time staff that have no interest in their work.

I still order from a restaurant/bar and just deal with what I am served.


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## Coffeelogicuk (Apr 30, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> - Freshly roasted beans. Maybe we home baristas are spoiled here, but it would be good if cafes would place smaller and more frequent orders rather than filling their stock room shelves with 2-6 month old beans.


This could be quite hard as its very difficult to manage the stock levels. The present climate is causing some really up and down sales and because everyone is watching the bank balance they are looking for the cheapest supply they can get their hands on, but this obviously effects quality.

Also remember that a busy coffee shop can make around 1,000 cups of coffee per day so not easy to keep that level of quality up with angry customers waiting for their order. Its a shame but its true.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Coffeelogicuk said:


> This could be quite hard as its very difficult to manage the stock levels. The present climate is causing some really up and down sales and because everyone is watching the bank balance they are looking for the cheapest supply they can get their hands on, but this obviously effects quality.
> 
> Also remember that a busy coffee shop can make around 1,000 cups of coffee per day so not easy to keep that level of quality up with angry customers waiting for their order. Its a shame but its true.


I know I'm being tough here, but I'm struggling to see how someone who is enterprising and creative enough to start their own business wouldn't have the capability to overcome these two challenges. Fantastic roasters are roasting to order and despatching every day, so with such short lead times I really think that if a cafe manager is not ordering freshly roasted beans at least once a week, it's a choice they have made rather than being a genuine stock management problem. They have decided it is less important than other business issues, because not enough customers send back bad coffee. For another thing, more frequent orders are better for cashflow.

It's a good point you raise about the busy cafe selling 1000+ cups per day. But again I'm afraid I can't accept that reducing the quality of the product sent to the customer is acceptable. Once again, that's the choice made by the owner/manager. I'm not an expert in this field, but common sense and a long career in business process improvement tells me that there are alternatives. There are always alternatives. In my view the barrier is that maintaining quality comes at a cost, which owner/managers choose not to incur. Once again, they believe the customer won't notice the drop in quality.

Off the top of my head, possible alternatives for the busy cafe include:

- having a machine with more group heads or even an extra machine/extra grinders.

- having more well-trained baristas manning the espresso machines

- adopting and training staff in more efficient order-taking processes. Last time I went in Starbucks in London they were using a small pad of stickers to write orders on, whilst people were queueing. This helped get volumes through.

I know these are not an instant solution for the high volume cafe, but I believe they illustrate that serving bad coffee is a choice, and one that we as customers do not need to forgive and forget... not at current prices.


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## Zouche (Jan 16, 2011)

Giving the customer what they want is definitely key here.

I was moved enough by 3 bad experiences in 3 separate Costa's recently to fire off an email to their 'customer feedback' address on their website - no reply or even acknowledgement of receipt. Makes me pretty mad when they are charging £2.50 or whatever for a latte and literally throwing weak espresso and barely warmed (or re-warmed in these 3 cases) milk into a cup. Is it normal to half fill the cup with milk, then put the espresso in and then top up with more milk? Seems odd to me. Whatever the method, if it had tasted good I wouldn't mind - it didn't.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Putting the milk in first is a latte macchiato and it is an acceptable version of the drink... every Costa I've been in does it that way. But it should still meet Costa's quality standards, and if it doesn't... well... I'm risking repeating myself









http://www.ritazza.sspweblive.com/coffee/latte_macchiato

I'd thought of writing to Costa to ask what their preferred course of action is for customers who receive a bad coffee, but after hearing of your experience with their customer feedback address, maybe there's no point.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

For fear of repeating myself, long time users of this forum might remember my saga with costa. Write letters, get meaningless apologies, promised but not delivered refunds etc.

IMHO they contravene the trade descriptions act every time they call their concoction coffee. Maybe it should be renamed "a cup of costa" then all the world would know they were getting warm milk with a hint of coffee---badly presented. Grrrrrrrr.

Just had a thought, Dulux could include it as a shade in their white range, hint of coffee, not quite as dark as magnolia.lol


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## LeeWardle (Nov 16, 2008)

I just don't go into somewhere I know will give me a crap coffee! I'd rather get a bottle of water from the corner shop! Restaurant wise, as with most of us, you can tell right away what the quality will be like. Failing that if I receive a poor espresso it has to go back.....Otherwise they will have the "well, nobody ever complains so it must be good" mentality.

Lee


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Just to follow up specifically on Costa Coffee. I called their Food And Drink Feedback line today to ask what their preferred course of action would be if a customer isn't satisfied with a coffee. The lady I spoke to was extremely helpful and very interested in learning the details of any bad experience I'd had at Costa, as she said they do value feedback and do want us to come back for more.

Regarding procedure:

1. She said that speaking to the duty manager and explaining what was wrong with the coffee would absolutely be acceptable if done in a courteous manner.

2. She agreed that if you are knowledgeable about coffee (e.g. you're a home-barista) and are able to pinpoint what you think might be wrong (e.g. grind not right) it would be advantageous to pass on your thoughts... perhaps by wording it as a question..."I think the grind is too coarse... don't you think that could be the problem?".

3. She said that you and your opinion should always be treated with respect by the Costa staff, and they should try to give you what you want.

4. A further step is to log a complaint with their Food And Drink Feedback dept. either by email or phone. I did so today whilst on the phone in relation to my last visit to my local Costa a few weeks ago, which she said would be investigated. They took my details and said they would get back to me.

http://www.costa.co.uk/contact/contact_us.aspx

Obviously it's too early to say whether this is an effective system, but I was impressed by the genuine attitude of customer care from this particular lady.

If nothing else then at least now I won't feel so bad sending bad coffee back at Costa and saying I'd been advised by their head office to do so. To me this is what the "Send Bad Coffee Back" campaign is all about... trying to work *with *the cafe owners, not against them.


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## LeeWardle (Nov 16, 2008)

The coffee in our local Costa is OK as Costa goes, but of my few visits the attitude of the staff is generally very poor. On one such occasion (two weeks ago) I asked for a flat white, but asked the barista to leave a 2 cm gap at the top to make it much shorter. She was very rude and told me that it wasn't a flat white in that case so why bother?!!! If I hadn't already paid I would have told her where to put it!

The worrying thing is, this was the assistant manager!

Lee


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

LeeWardle said:


> Restaurant wise, as with most of us, you can tell right away what the quality will be like.
> 
> Lee


Would love your tips on spotting if restaurant coffee is going to be poor, Lee, as I've often been disappointed. Even in top notch restaurants, with bills that could be mistaken for the establishment's telephone number (not that I get in them very often), I've come across end-of-meal espressos that are nothing short of shameful.


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## LeeWardle (Nov 16, 2008)

I probably didn't put it very well.







I always look out for the coffee coming out of the kitchen, also listening for the tell tale signs The Grinder - Freshly ground for each pull? or are coffee's coming out with old pre-ground? The tell tale "Pitcher screaming!".....Also ask some questions..."what espresso do you serve?" if they don't know or call it EXPRESSO it's a no no! If it's a quality bean (Union, hasbean etc) then you're probably onto a good thing....

Lee


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## LeeWardle (Nov 16, 2008)

vintagecigarman said:


> . Even in top notch restaurants, with bills that could be mistaken for the establishment's telephone number (not that I get in them very often), I've come across end-of-meal espressos that are nothing short of shameful.


I've trained a number of fine dining restaurants, including one with 2 michlin stars - Some are really obsessive about the espresso (if they have a sommelier then generally speaking they will have an appreciation for good coffee). Some see it as "just coffee"!

I find it strange that a restaurant will give you a fine dining experience with its food, then give you a bad taste in your mouth to go home with! (and usually to pay the bill/tip by)

Lee


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Agree wholeheartedly about the sommelier bit, Lee. A friend of ours is a sommelier in a Michelin-starred restaurant in Trentino. Although he doesn't make it, he regards the espresso quality as part of his responsibility, and always ensures a great coffee experience.

But I do like your earlier suggestion about asking what "espresso do you serve" - that goes straight in my toolkit - thanks!


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## Coffeelogicuk (Apr 30, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> - having a machine with more group heads or even an extra machine/extra grinders.


Believe it or not many of these guys actually quibble about spending £20 a week on a machine when they are making that back in one mornings sales. Very hard to argue for them to get a second machine/grinder









I am not siding with the current trend to skip quality control, I am just pointing out some of the problems that may cause a drop in the coffee quality but as you say, with the correct management these problems could be overcome. When we quote our coffee prices (and we provide fresh roast) it nearly always ends with the customer opting for the cheapest option, its all about cost.

Something else to mention is that there are suppliers who offer a pretty rubbish machine for free, then charge only for the coffee that they provide. The result of this for the customer is a pre-used and ill maintained coffee machine and stale coffee beans. The lure of the free machine seems to win...


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## Coffeelogicuk (Apr 30, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> Putting the milk in first is a latte macchiato and it is an acceptable version of the drink... every Costa I've been in does it that way. But it should still meet Costa's quality standards, and if it doesn't... well... I'm risking repeating myself
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It would be a Macchiato if they let the milk separate first, but from the description they added more on top afterwards?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Perhaps "Latte Machiatto" is just Ritazzas name for it, but regardless, it's one of the standard ways to make a latte. See this video:

http://www.mahalo.com/how-to-make-a-cafe-latte/

The final addition of milk is just a small amount to cover the stain of the espresso as it passes through the milk. The result is meant to be an attractive layered effect in the glass.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

A latte macchiato is milk stained with coffee. An entirely different drink than a macchiato (coffee stained with milk)


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Anyway, sticking with Costa, I just received an apology letter and a £5 voucher from them! The area manager is going to investigate my complaint of an undrinkable latte.

Good for them for acting upon feedback. We'll get there...one coffee at a time, eh?


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