# My adventures with single baskets and the razor tool



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Have to say though that Sages 58mm single is a complete and utter abortion. I don't think it's fully tamping with 10g in as the shoulder isn't deep enough - 11g seems to make the puck stick to the shower screen due to too much coffee. So I'm not surprises some one thought it held 12g. My 9.9g expanded enough to show the hole in the shower screen fixing screw but a crap puck because it needed a bit more pressure. Maybe 10.5g +/- 1 attogram will work out. The razor tool very nearly reaches the bottom of the shoulder. It clearly needs to have a much shallower over all depth to allow the shoulder to be deeper. Shape - well IMS reckon they developed something rather similar to make it easier to get the puck out - also I assume make it easier to stick it to the shower screen.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

10.5g produced a decent drink the Sage single but just a trace of oil. Grounds expansion looks about right as well. Light signs of the shower screen on top of the puck but no grounds stuck to it. 10.5g did tamp but not fully. If it is supposed to be a 10g basket I suspect the change to the taper would need to be 1mm further down. 1/2mm might do for 10.5g but this is at a pretty fine grind.

The grind gives 6 bar if I use the manual button to keep it in infusion with a 66% pump pressure.







I was thinking 666 when I set it up but Sage don't provide enough digits. 50 sec extract. Not sure about taste - makes me think less coffee needed. More oil though. Puck a bit messy as well. I could try reducing the shot duration.

Tried another basket that razored at 9.5g. Found it too high by 0.5g so 9 produced a stronger drink but not strong enough.







So wont be recommending the razor on this one. A pain as it can be useful for sorting out large grinder setting changes.

I don't know how much the machines have changed over time but this one will steam as soon as the brew boiler gets up to temperature and all of the lights come on. It came with a gold razor but the tools pack was in the milk jug so might have originally been supplied with it or maybe not. The razor tool sets a depth of 8.3mm. I have a feeling that the other one that was sent back and wasn't coloured set lower than that but not sure.

John

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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

I'm wondering if you could do a little video to show your work process, I'm sure lots of people would find that really enlightening, as you seem to have developed some very different techniques.


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## Greydad (Feb 25, 2018)

I weighed my DB double filter grind today and it said 27g was expecting about 19-20g am I overstimulating it?

Tamped ok, pressure ok, coffee coloured stuff came out ok, tasted ok and the puck dropped out a treat leaving the filter all clean and shiny I was well proud but seems to be a lot of coffee used?

If it should be 19g it's no wonder I'm chewing through the beans like a snowblower through brown snow at the moment #topicalweatherreference


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Greydad said:


> I weighed my DB double filter grind today and it said 27g was expecting about 19-20g am I overstimulating it?
> 
> Tamped ok, pressure ok, coffee coloured stuff came out ok, tasted ok and the puck dropped out a treat leaving the filter all clean and shiny I was well proud but seems to be a lot of coffee used?
> 
> If it should be 19g it's no wonder I'm chewing through the beans like a snowblower through brown snow at the moment #topicalweatherreference


Are you telling us you put 27g of coffee in the basket?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Missy said:


> Are you telling us you put 27g of coffee in the basket?


Thats pretty standard for Sage.....when they do white gloves, they do not measure or weigh anything. As the `sage grinder which a lot of buyers also have, is basically naff they compensate by seriously overdosing


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## Greydad (Feb 25, 2018)

It might be measurement inaccuracy as I don't have decent 0.1g scales yet, I did a weigh-in a few days ago and got 19g which was more like what I was expecting. I'll have another attempt today - still snowing here in Zummerzet so nothing else to do all day except make coffee


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

when they did white gloves with me, we were using decaf. the mythos pulled a perfect shot on 18 gms in where as the Sage grinder needed 27 on the finest setting to match the pour time. the sage basket is pretty big!


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## Greydad (Feb 25, 2018)

Just made a morning brew for Wifey and re-weighed more accurately - 23g - so I've dialled back the grind time and made it grind slightly coarser in my much-maligned Smart Grinder Pro and will refine from there. Must admit it tasted lovely today - manual 25sec pre-infusion, 20sec infusion and max


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I use pound coins now and again to check my scales are ok. I think I saw a post suggesting a £2 weighs twice as much as a £1 - I don't think so and the weights are on the web, just google coin type and weight. One set I had went none linear. Doesn't really matter but it did at the time as I was splitting up small 40g packs of beans for 3 shots.

All of what I do to tune goes back to using a BE and also a timed grinder. Nothing magical I messed about with the quantity of coffee in the basket. I found that with one grind and bean that I could adjust the timer on the grinder to keep the dose at 9.3g based on the look of the puck, mostly how clear the signs of the hex socket in the screw that retains the shower screen was. I also found that if the weight was increased strength dropped off and if too low pucks would be messy or show very slight rippling on their surface. So I aim to leave just enough room for the coffee to expand and leave a light impression of the shower screen on the top of the puck or slight signs of the socket in the screw. or both. This was fine on the BE for monsooned in the single but the OPV was opening dumping lots of water into the drip tray so tried more coffee with a coarser grind in a larger basket I managed to get to fit. There I found it was best to compress the grounds a bit more via the shower screen. This is brewing with the pressure just short of the OPV opening. Worked out well with a Sumatra bean but not so good on monsooned. If I stuck an extra 0.2g of that in the OPV opened and the drink improved but still not as "good" as what I had been doing. So conclusion stick to brewing with the OPV open on monsooned and empty the drip tray more often. Less coffee used too circa 9.3 against 13 odd.








Then DB2 arrived. I poured 3 mugs of the Sumatra bean down the sink last night. First time I have produced drinks that bad. Might be too weak to too strong etc. I don't think I am tamping consistently. Anything might happen if that's out. Weight for this bean will be totally different to the monsooned. Going on this mornings shot of that I have to wonder about tamping so next one will be the razor tool and see what happens with that. I might find that the single is 12g plus with the Sumatra bean in going on results with that so far. The razor would have taken out some of the grounds on one shot of monsooned that clearly had too much coffee in it due to the dribble that started coming out after circa 20 sec. I don't think that the grind is too fine but could be. On the BE I found that the razor tool tended to leave the level a bit low which suites the way I work.







Never know it might on the DB.

Not sure about this idea of using infusion settings to set a brew pressure. If I want a bean with fruit notes then I'd buy beans that should give that but on my main supplier it would be acidity levels. There are way more variables available on a DB. It could take a lot of shots to find the settings that are ideal for me.

I used the single pressurised basket empty to set up infusion - I prefer to set and try rather than set and drink and see if ok. 2 bar infusion on in that gave 6 bar with coffee with the grind I am using. Very BE like. I use the same basket to preheat the portafilter anyway. 15 secs seems to be enough for that and flushes the machine at the same time. Fitting a cold basket afterwards doesn't seem to matter. I run the flush into the drip tray. I did run it into my mug but the hot water out of a DB seems to be hotter than a BE so a cold thinnish wall glass mug cools it a bit

I suspect that the DB has the fastest dual boiler heat up time on the planet.

I'm using a Sage grinder and don't really have any problems with it. I'd guess dfk didn't run enough beans through it before trying to tune with it's settings. The output on any timed grinder is going to need checking now and again anyway. Maybe it has a different effect on taste but conical is supposed to anyway. I've been weighing beans in of late and the results are extremely consistent except when beans or grind settings are changed. What comes out is usually a touch light then so I just grind another bean or two to top it up. Retention that matters is virtually zero in them. In fact I'd say zero very quickly following a change in beans. It doesn't take many shots at all to do that.







You might say that giving them a complete clean out is a bad idea 'cause it's going to need to grind some beans again before it settles down. Anyway for what I will accept baskets have a very limited weight range that they can hold and I do keep the weight of grinds within it and one way or the other just check weights. Against that are opinions from some one that probably hardly used it.

My screwdrivers need to come out on my Mazzer. Lens hood added but that wont clear the grinds out unless I also remove the wire grill that they add to keep grinds in place / help with dosing. Then comes a tube and a weight to create a low capacity hopper. Weight needed to get the dose consistent and also prevent the burrs from stirring up the beans. I can also add a lens hood to that. On the other hand if i waste a shot in the morning the retention may not matter.

What people need to weigh up is if the trouble is actually worth it. In my view I feel that the only way to find out is to try it. Especially in the area of grinders because there is some junk about. I don't think Sage fall into that category.

John

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## Greydad (Feb 25, 2018)

Since I've (recently) been checking weights rather than only volume/tamping depth the Sage SGP at least seems to be pretty consistent in terms of what it drops in the basket, which would seem to be one of the most important requirements in any grinder. At the moment the biggest variable is my own inexperience so although different for ajohn for me at least the grinder is not the limiting factor in my coffee making. When I know more about what I'm doing I'll upgrade the grinder, knowing that the espresso machine part of the whole process is good for a while yet.


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## Greydad (Feb 25, 2018)

ajohn said:


> I use pound coins now and again to check my scales are ok.


Somewhere we have a set of old-fashioned balance scale weights which I will use to check my scales once I've found them







But I really need a 0.1g scale as I'm using a 1g resolution electronic one at the moment so I'm ± 0.5g



> All of what I do to tune goes back to using a BE and also a timed grinder. Nothing magical I messed about with the quantity of coffee in the basket. I found that with one grind and bean that I could adjust the timer on the grinder to keep the dose at 9.3g based on the look of the puck, mostly how clear the signs of the hex socket in the screw that retains the shower screen was. I also found that if the weight was increased strength dropped off and if too low pucks would be messy or show very slight rippling on their surface. So I aim to leave just enough room for the coffee to expand and leave a light impression of the shower screen on the top of the puck or slight signs of the socket in the screw. or both.


This is what I've been doing and a) it's not sticking to the shower head b) I get a nice impression left on the puck after extraction and c) the puck falls out of the filter basket nice and cleanly. I'm now trying to keep these results whilst reducing the coffee quantity closer to where I think it should be.



> Then DB2 arrived. I poured 3 mugs of the Sumatra bean down the sink last night. First time I have produced drinks that bad. Might be too weak to too strong etc. I don't think I am tamping consistently. Anything might happen if that's out. Weight for this bean will be totally different to the monsooned. Going on this mornings shot of that I have to wonder about tamping so next one will be the razor tool and see what happens with that. I might find that the single is 12g plus with the Sumatra bean in going on results with that so far. The razor would have taken out some of the grounds on one shot of monsooned that clearly had too much coffee in it due to the dribble that started coming out after circa 20 sec. I don't think that the grind is too fine but could be. On the BE I found that the razor tool tended to leave the level a bit low which suites the way I work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm still missing my razor tool and single basket so I'm flying by the seat of my pants on this one







I found the biggest errors have occurred so far when I've ground too fine, so on the Sage SGP I'm around 14-16 for the blend I'm using at the moment #YBMV (Your Beans May Vary)



> Not sure about this idea of using infusion settings to set a brew pressure. If I want a bean with fruit notes then I'd buy beans that should give that but on my main supplier it would be acidity levels. There are way more variables available on a DB. It could take a lot of shots to find the settings that are ideal for me.


Me neither but I'll try anything...



> I used the single pressurised basket empty to set up infusion - I prefer to set and try rather than set and drink and see if ok. 2 bar infusion on in that gave 6 bar with coffee with the grind I am using. Very BE like. I use the same basket to preheat the portafilter anyway. 15 secs seems to be enough for that and flushes the machine at the same time. Fitting a cold basket afterwards doesn't seem to matter. I run the flush into the drip tray. I did run it into my mug but the hot water out of a DB seems to be hotter than a BE so a cold thinnish wall glass mug cools it a bit
> 
> I suspect that the DB has the fastest dual boiler heat up time on the planet.


I find this aspect of the DB to be pretty awesome plus as a family we were making espresso, teas and hot chocolate pretty much all at once last night.



> I'm using a Sage grinder and don't really have any problems with it. I'd guess dfk didn't run enough beans through it before trying to tune with it's settings. The output on any timed grinder is going to need checking now and again anyway. Maybe it has a different effect on taste but conical is supposed to anyway. I've been weighing beans in of late and the results are extremely consistent except when beans or grind settings are changed. What comes out is usually a touch light then so I just grind another bean or two to top it up. Retention that matters is virtually zero in them. In fact I'd say zero very quickly following a change in beans. It doesn't take many shots at all to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As I said above I doubt the SGP is the limiting factor for me and the more I use it the more I'm understanding the settings in relation to the results coming out into the cup. It seems good enough for me to practice with and be able to get consistent and repeatable results, even if it's not at competition barista level



> What people need to weigh up is if the trouble is actually worth it. In my view I feel that the only way to find out is to try it. Especially in the area of grinders because there is some junk about. I don't think Sage fall into that category.
> 
> John
> 
> -


It's only coffee...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

LOL Basket problem may be solved. I just loaded 11.7g of monsooned into it and then razored it off. Result 11.4g. Puck stuck to the shower screen and this time it looks to be down to too little coffee. Puck a bit wet etc. Have to be really careful tamping 11.4g. It's ever so close to the shoulder in the basket. Next shot 11.7g but that's a guess. I went for 11.5 but got 11.3 as another bean had gone through so ground 2 beans and added which gave 11.7. Normally I would have 2 grinders available.

Infusion pushed it up to nearly 7 bar. Plenty of oil too this time and taste about right. The grinder is set on 11 but that can't really be read across to others. I may need to back off the grind a bit but I do like murdered oily monsooned. No more thick crema with oil floating on top - suspect that was down to BE's brew pressure when the OPV's open for a lot of the shot.

I suspect I wont mind the DB's bigger single basket but they could make it a bit easier to tamp.

John

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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

I rate the sage pro grinder for its price, owned a few different low end grinders and performance wise I think it matched the mignon even if build quality means it would never last as long. To match a high end machine? Probably not. But as a second grinder or a stop gap it's ideal. I'm really surprised you are using at 15-16 setting, Im not sure I've ever used mine higher than 10 for espresso and probably range from 4-8. Unless I've missed something on the thread


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Enough on grinders. I've yet to see a pro barista cleaning up a messing puck when they produce a drink. if that is some people bag that's fine by me. It's not mine and never ever will be.

Looks like I have this single basket completely wrong thanks to under filling and that causing grinds to swill all over the place. Evening shot and 12.5g of monsooned. Flat topped puck and it dropped out directly into the box without any knocking so not far off.

LOL I'm likely to fit it with an IMS competition shower screen soon - bound to improve my drinks tremendously. Actually I do suspect it will smooth out and spread the water distribution a bit otherwise I wouldn't be doing it.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> when are you going to graduate to joined up writing and try a mans double basket! and if your taste buds can tell a shot made with an IMS screen, hats off to you!


Why don't you learn to use the single ? 7.5g of monsooned you mentioned in a double or the single that comes with the db. I'd love to see a photo of the puck.

It's pretty clear that we should all use a Mythos and in many cases remove a kitchen wall cupboard to gain clearance

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-grinders/eureka-mythos-grinder-2916.html

They also seems to be available on lease purchase.

John

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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Why don't you learn to use the single ? 7.5g of monsooned you mentioned in a double or the single that comes with the db. I'd love to see a photo of the puck.
> 
> It's pretty clear that we should all use a Mythos and in many cases remove a kitchen wall cupboard to gain clearance
> 
> ...


For me, I do not see what a single brings to the table. It is not about what I, or the vast majority of UK coffee drinkers think, but what you are happy with. The single basket is considered much more difficult to use.....perhaps the reputation put me off. i like challenge though and certainly will have a play around with the sage single basket, and I also have quite a few others lying around. But, what does a single bring? if it is in ratio, then it ought not to be weaker, so is it about volume? I only have a stomach a third of the normal size so perhaps I would enjoy smaller volume drinks. I usually drink 4 ounce drinks, and slightly more if it is americano. My Mythos were never in the kitchen so I have no need to remove cupboards, and lease purchase normally favours a VAT registered business which I am not, but, thanks for the suggestions!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Sorry DFK I was pointing out why some one might not want a commercial grinder - size, also some may not want to modify one. It seems to be difficult to discuss the Sage grinder as opinions on it do vary so I am out on that subject. Our kitchen is changing slowly and I won't have a height problem. Too many things and sinks in an odd way take up a lot of space so ours will no longer be under the window. It wouldn't surprise me if I finish up with a certain grinder that has huge conical burrs.

My long blacks work out at 11oz. One thing I will probably have to face up to on the DB is that I wont get the strength or more worrying the taste out of 9.3g of monsooned that I could on the BE providing I didn't mind emptying it's drip tray rather regularly. I couldn't on the Piccino either. On the other hand I still have more things to try including the double. Getting the fill level right on the DB has improved the drink a lot. 12.5g this morning with a slightly finer grind setting nearly choked the machine but better still. I have several singles kicking about. When I looked at the bits that make up the shower head I thought great typical E61 sized so probably similar fill levels giving access to more basket weights - that doesn't seem to be the case but not too sure yet. My wife likes the wooden barrels from Liddl so have some beans to waste and hopefully drink so can play with my other baskets with those.








I don't really expect an IMS screen to change the taste either. Curiosity really. The actual shower produced is good on the DB but not as widely spread as the Piccino and may muck up more easily. It didn't cost much and came as part of a deal when I ordered a couple of baskets.

Using 9.3 in a BE single fill level proved to be pretty critical. Playing around with other beans in the double gave mixed results as the basket had to be seriously under filled. In short no consistency and a mess. I've found that to be the case any time I have under filled. The BE also allowed me to over extract rather seriously, nothing really left in the grounds. The taste that gives on monsooned suites me. The DB is giving a more normal monsooned taste. I suggested upping brew pressure to another BE owner that drank monsooned and they liked the taste it gave as well. In fact I have said several times don't take much notice of the pressure and extraction info in the manual for the BE. I've yet to find a bean that will give the behaviour it shows and a decent drink - mostly but not all based on the single.

John

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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

You should be able to get the same taste from 9.3g of the same bean on any machine, more or less (and given dark roast more easily imo than a light roast)

It's why we talk about ratios (weight in/out) because then you can adjust for the various proclivities of each machine. Preinfusion and profiling (changing the pressure during a shot) would make a difference, but a

Grinders would make a difference in a much greater degree.

If you are happy with your BE and your single basket why change? If it tastes good hurrah.


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## Greydad (Feb 25, 2018)

KTD said:


> I rate the sage pro grinder for its price, owned a few different low end grinders and performance wise I think it matched the mignon even if build quality means it would never last as long. To match a high end machine? Probably not. But as a second grinder or a stop gap it's ideal. I'm really surprised you are using at 15-16 setting, Im not sure I've ever used mine higher than 10 for espresso and probably range from 4-8. Unless I've missed something on the thread


 @KTD

Took your comments on board and have been away experimenting. Finished off a sampler blend on Wednesday and moved on to a single origin Costa Rican bean which was a totally different experience. Noted what @Missy @dfk41 @ashroc and others have said about varying one thing at a time and the sort of extraction times to aim for. So...

Started off with the SGP grind setting on 12 aiming to get something nice out of a double filter. Weighed the grounds at 23g (too high) and manually extracted on the DB about 30 secs which just filled a 60cl cup. Now, first thing I though was it was too watery and I was using too much coffee. It tasted very very fruity and sweet, remarkably different to the mostly Colombian blends we've been trying but thought hmm maybe this is what this bean is like?Dunno.

Anyway from there I've been reducing the grind time to get down to around 19-20g and grinding finer, 11, then 10 then 9. Extraction is still around 30sec (15-20 sec pre-infusion) but that fills the double shot glass. The difference in taste is frankly remarkable - the heavy fruity flavour I previously found almost sickly is much reduced now and there is a more bitter coffee flavour appearing. Don't have the experience or vocabulary to explain it but maybe the balance is getting better - anyway it tastes way better than the first attempt 3 days ago.

So, given I know it's still too watery and the extraction time could still be longer I will keep reducing the grind size and see what happens.

Just a note for @ajohn as he likes this sort of thing - the pucks (which I thought were ok before as they came out relatively cleanly) are now slightly drier and drop out of the filter with only the lightest of taps. I know this isn't the end goal of espresso making but I find it interesting to note this has happened for this bean as the grind has become finer and the taste has improved (considerably).

sorry to hijack your DB thread @ajohn I don't really know where noobs post about their boring coffee making experiments


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

What basket are you dosing 23g into?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> What basket are you dosing 23g into?


The stock Sage double will comfortably handle that with room to spare


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## Greydad (Feb 25, 2018)

dfk41 said:


> @Greydad
> 
> you are grinding too fine! The preinfusion should be for a set amount of time and if it varies it is telling you your grind is wrong. On DB, it lasts 8 to 10 seconds. if the pour starts before the it is too coarse, after that, too fine.


Holding Manual in to extend the pre-infusion from default to 15-20 secs, just for kicks and giggles. Not using 2-shot auto button as it overflows my 60cl shot glass.



> I would decide on an amount of coffee, say 20 gms for argument. Always grind that amount. Forget the timer, grind and weigh. You might need to add to it or take away. then tamp and pour your shot, aiming for lets says double the dry weight in 30 seconds. And you need to weigh out or you are pissing in the wind wearing dark glasses and boxing gloves....
> 
> Weigh in, weigh out.....if you are not getting approximately 40 gms using the above in 30 seconds, report back for the next instalment!


I am weighing in and out. I've reduced from 23g to target of 19-20g. I'm getting 60g out from 20g in in 30secs, which is why I think it's still too watery. Flavour has improved considerably with the finer grind.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Greydad said:


> What @dfk41 said - bog-standard Sage DB single wall double filter basket. It's the only basket I have as a consequence of picking up an ex-display model for a song.


Try dosing 18g. Look for an output weight of 36-40g in over 30 sec, under 50 secs. Don't get too bogged down with time to much. It's the in and out ratios that will help.


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## Greydad (Feb 25, 2018)

Wifey just called for more coffee so had another chance to experiment.

19g in, SGP set to 8, tamped quite hard (exact pressure unknown), used Sage DB 2-shot auto button with default pre-infusion time, extracted to full double shot glass 59g, had to manually stop after 25secs cos it was full.

started dribbling out after 8-9 secs which seems about right but no idea how to get >25secs without either a) overfilling basket 22-23g again or b) using a pneumatic press to do the tamping for me.

lovely cuppa coffee though, delish


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Greydad said:


> Wifey just called for more coffee so had another chance to experiment.
> 
> 19g in, SGP set to 8, tamped quite hard (exact pressure unknown), used Sage DB 2-shot auto button with default pre-infusion time, extracted to full double shot glass 59g, had to manually stop after 25secs cos it was full.
> 
> ...


Grind finer.


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## jimbocz (Jun 5, 2015)

I can't really keep track of all am ajohn's posts, but I a curious how anybody can use the razor tool with the single basket that comes with the DTP. My wife insists I use that basket for some reason and every time I try to razor it, the entire puck just rotates in the portafilter.

I don't have this problem with the double basket.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

jimbocz said:


> I can't really keep track of all am ajohn's posts, but I a curious how anybody can use the razor tool with the single basket that comes with the DTP. My wife insists I use that basket for some reason and every time I try to razor it, the entire puck just rotates in the portafilter.
> 
> I don't have this problem with the double basket.


Yeh - I'm posting too often. Maybe I tamp harder then you do. When I've used it on the single I don't remove much with it. Maybe 1/2g or so. Other than at the very beginning I have mostly used it will playing with grinder settings - just weigh a bit to much in and razor off. If you want a rough idea of the weight for the single try 9.3g. That's what I used for monsooned which I'm finding of late tends to expand more than other beans I use.

The reason I suggest people use it when first using the machine is that it's very easy to use too much coffee - but I'm usually trying to get max strength out of the bean. I found that as the weight went up strength reduced but this will obviously relate to how the coffee is ground. If for instance the grind was coarser than one I am using too much coffee might help as there will be more pressure when it expands which in turn will slow the water down as it passes through the coffee.

I would have thought that 10g into a DTP or BE single would always razor off however it's ground unless it's so fine it chokes the machine.

John

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PS I'm using a DB now and the razor isn't working out so well but is giving me an idea how much coffee a basket can hold which is at least a start and better than nothing. Also missing the BE but slowly getting nearer the taste I want from my favourite bean. I'm using none Sage baskets already,


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Yeh - I'm posting too often. Maybe I tamp harder then you do. When I've used it on the single I don't remove much with it. Maybe 1/2g or so. Other than at the very beginning I have mostly used it will playing with grinder settings - just weigh a bit to much in and razor off. If you want a rough idea of the weight for the single try 9.3g. That's what I used for monsooned which I'm finding of late tends to expand more than other beans I use.
> 
> The reason I suggest people use it when first using the machine is that it's very easy to use too much coffee - but I'm usually trying to get max strength out of the bean. I found that as the weight went up strength reduced but this will obviously relate to how the coffee is ground. If for instance the grind was coarser than one I am using too much coffee might help as there will be more pressure when it expands which in turn will slow the water down as it passes through the coffee.
> 
> ...


10 gm of monsooned malabar will have a far higher volume than most other beans, hence why you get the impression you are overloading


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> 10 gm of monsooned malabar will have a far higher volume than most other beans, hence why you get the impression you are overloading


No impression about it. The razor tool leaves a volume whose weight may vary depending on beans. I've used a number of different beans. Grinds can be put in up to the point where the portafilter wont go on any more or to the point where it gets stiffer to fit. Put simply the razor tool will put the level around where it needs to be. People might want to add a bit more or a bit less.

If some one uses it and 10g doesn't razor off - there is a pretty simple solution.

If they don't have scales and want to use it then - less or more spoons etc. I'm sure it will remove a teaspoon full easily.

John

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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@ajohn The MM bean is a large bean that weighs very light, and is less dense. It takes more of them to weigh 10 gms than a normal bean, therefore the volume in the pf is greater than with a normal bean. If you disbelieve me, count out 10 gms onto a set of scales then repeat with a different bean.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> @ajohn The MM bean is a large bean that weighs very light, and is less dense. It takes more of them to weigh 10 gms than a normal bean, therefore the volume in the pf is greater than with a normal bean. If you disbelieve me, count out 10 gms onto a set of scales then repeat with a different bean.


I don't disbelieve you at all. The reason I posted was quote "hence why you get the impression you are overloading" I didn't have any "impression" at all just stated facts. You may have the impression that the razor left it at 9.3g. It didn't. It's what I finished up using after drinking a number of shots at other weights.

All the razor will do is get the level in the right ball park.

John

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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

but, if the razor is working on volume, which it is, then you must be dosing at less than you think compared to less dense beans than MM. Have you prepared your shot then knocked the unused puck out to weigh? I have drunk loads of MM over the years and it always was a hard bean to tame. Having used a razor a few times I do not see what it brings to the table. Sage give it out as beginners who their gear is aimed at are not taught to weigh in or out. Instead, they dump large amounts of coffee into a pf then use the razor to get rid of excess in the hope the shot will be acceptable.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It was finding that 9.3g was right for me that has caused me to use the razor tool since on new beans and or baskets. Several time now I have ground enough beans to overfill the basket as far as the razor tool is concerned then checked the weight that leaves and used it as a basis for finding out what the actual weight needs to be. When we bought the machine we had a few bags of Lavazza preground around and didn't use the razor tool. It would have helped.

I'm out of MM now so time to try the Sumatra bean I use from time to time. That razored off at 10g in my IMS 9.5g basket. The puck it left is good enough to try another grinder setting but a little lower than it could be if needed. MM in that basket can be brewed with 9.2 to 10g in it - only problem with that is don't ask me what it razored off at - can't remember but pulled shots over a range based on what it gave. Wife probably 9.4g, me 9.8 or maybe 9.6 - I've run out of beans. I wont be using 10g - too strong but could try grinding coarser as well.

So useful for newbe's yes but we all are if we start using a new bean or a different size of basket. It would have saved me time if I had used it on the DB single. I assumed it would be a notional 10g as per the BE. Turns out it's more like 12.5g. I found that out after several misleading results using around 10g by adding more and razoring it off. I should have done that initially. I have a larger IMS basket on it's way - no idea how much it will hold on a DB . Simplest answer to that is the razor.

John

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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

ajohn said:


> It was finding that 9.3g was right for me that has caused me to use the razor tool since on new beans and or baskets. Several time now I have ground enough beans to overfill the basket as far as the razor tool is concerned then checked the weight that leaves and used it as a basis for finding out what the actual weight needs to be. When we bought the machine we had a few bags of Lavazza preground around and didn't use the razor tool. It would have helped.
> 
> I'm out of MM now so time to try the Sumatra bean I use from time to time. That razored off at 10g in my IMS 9.5g basket. The puck it left is good enough to try another grinder setting but a little lower than it could be if needed. MM in that basket can be brewed with 9.2 to 10g in it - only problem with that is don't ask me what it razored off at - can't remember but pulled shots over a range based on what it gave. Wife probably 9.4g, me 9.8 or maybe 9.6 - I've run out of beans. I wont be using 10g - too strong but could try grinding coarser as well.
> 
> ...


You should do a video clip of your basket prep and shot. i think it would be useful for folk to see.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

urbanbumpkin said:


> You should do a video clip of your basket prep and shot. i think it would be useful for folk to see.


The video has already been done by Sage






Just add checking weight etc.








The BE has the same sort of grind time knob but no markings and no pause. It's a fair old task to get it set to grind the right amount of coffee and even more so if the grinder setting is also being changed. So much fun in fact I'm likely to switch entirely to weighing beans in.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

:waiting:More fun with Monsooned. From using the BE I had decided that some flow should start during infusion. Seemed to work out and indicates that all of the grounds are wet. With the grind I am using that wouldn't happen so up'd the time to 10 sec. I might need to increase it a bit more.

I'm using an IMS 21mm high "The Single". The flow tended to choke off a bit after 20sec with 10g in it so am using 9.8g which currently seems ok. The puck knocks out nicely, with 10g it needed a very hefty whack or 2.

Best drink, trying to get the same result as I had from a BE came out this morning. 30 sec gave 16g out so I extended the time by double shotting the same puck to get 35 out. I'm hoping 12 sec infusion and 40sec maybe more shot will do the same thing. Too long a shot and strange tastes start to dominate. I like it rich and smooth.

I don't think I will ever get the same degree of crema I had out of the BE but similar levels of oil are now coming out. When I joined some one mentioned that BE's tend to produce a lot of crema and didn't know why. I suspect on MM it's down to brewing at 15 bar with the OPV open and 3 to 4 times the shot volume going out of it into the drip tray. As 15 bar is possible very fine grinds can be used. It's also possible to brew just short of the OPV opening. That tends to need more grounds but results can differ.

My Sumatra Manheling may never work out on the DB as I brew for a light drink. It was easy on the BE, just coarsen the grind for 14bar and set a shot time to suite. I can get it in a lighter roast though which may be a better option. 5 shots out of the dark I have are miles off. Drinkable but not what I want from the bean.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Having used a BE this is frustrating. I tried a Piccino for a while and found I needed more MM but the taste still differed. Same conclusion on the DB but a more similar taste especially if I use infusion pressure throughout. I'm now using an IMS 23mm the single. Looks like it holds 12 point something grams of MM.

I tried 12g in the Sage single but it was clearly underfilled and had to do a shower screen clean after just one shot. MM is less dense than many beans so that's a lot really. It did tamp though. Not being able to effectively use the razor on it is a pain. It sets a level around 1/2mm above the shoulder in the basket and that generally seems to be too low anyway. Anyone have any idea what the capacity actually is. Volume wise 12g of MM is probably about 13g on more normal beans so a general idea would help.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Coffee and baskets are really weird things. I'm still playing with monsooned malabar. Best result so far were 12.3g in an IMS 23mm The Single. Results for me are a little weak but ok. I can set up to get stronger but my wife probably wouldn't like it so thought try a different basket size. I used a 12g Fracino basket and found it holds circa 13.3g - via the razor tool. Left the grind as it was for the IMS basket expecting a 30 sec shot time to have a reduced output. Very very dark output and at a fair old rate. I terminated at 20 secs and still got 50g out.







It's actually drinkable and even has a decent flavour. I prefer to drop a lot of the sweetness on this bean. I shudder to think what would come out if I grind for something sensible in 30 sec but will give it a try. My idea of strength is that if I can still taste coffee 10min after I have drunk it there is something wrong -







MM has lots of oil so a crazy been to do that with really.

So if some one wants to try a killer basket a 12g Fracino might be of interest. This size of basket is a light double and is just more or less a truncated normal double. The IMS The Singles seem to be deliberately designed to restrict flow to get a more even extraction.

The Fracino basket is ridged and far more sharply than their other baskets so is a pretty tight fit in a Sage portafilter. An extraction tool is probably essential to get it out. I'll probably thin the ridge down a bit on mine. Before changing the grinder setting I'll try 14g in it to see how much that restricts the flow. The puck came out very easily and left a little bit behind but wasn't too wet.

I'm likely to conclude that the DB's single is junk. The depth to the shoulder is too small.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The 14g in it went into the sink, way to strong and still very high flow rates. Unusual for me to not drink what came out.

Thought I would try a Fracino single - it's one I bought of espresso underground that seems to hold a touch more than Fracino's. On MM 9.5g is about right. That allows me to grind a fair bit finer than the IMS basket. Result stronger coffee. Need to sort the ratio out now drink by drink. Grind first and then grind and time.







I suspect I can then sort my wife out by not preheating the portafilter.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've often been getting a strange channelling effect. Bit of a hole to one side of the puck but otherwise ok. The shower didn't seem to be very even so had a look at that. The surface of the rear screen where the actual screen sits seemed to be a bit rough. Odd for a plastic part and thought I might have to lap it. 15mins in pully cafe cleaned it up so must have bean an accumulation of coffee. Put it back together and then noticed that as the screw is tightened it now goes rock solid, nothing iffy about that at all as there was when I removed and just washed it all.

So perfect shower now both before and after a shot, all holes running evenly. Before cleaning and even after washing often only 2/3 of them were running giving an unequal flow out of the spouts on the portafilter. That is even now.

Help - looked at the puck and now 2 small holes near the rim of the puck. New one on me and no idea why this might happen. The basket I am using will tamp correctly at a range of fills, unlike the Sage single. I'm using 14.7kg - calibrated tamper.

I suspect these holes are causing variability. I was pulling dead consistent shots on the BE and had been for a long time and no problems of this sort.

John

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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Sounds very strange.

Which basket are you using with this?

The standard sage double?

What are you dosing?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Yes it looks like I may have got carried away with fill height. I just tried less and no holes. I had been working up and seem to have gone too far.

:act-up:I thought I had a patent on mentioning use of the razor tool even that people can get part way there by using nothing else - some haven't got suitable scales when they start. Also no idea how much to put in. I found it worked well on the BE even for sorting a grind out. Just weighed in a bit too much and razor off to save changing dose as the grind setting changed. Then finish off the usual way with scales. I've had problems using it on the DB but suspect that was mostly down to the single that comes with it.

On the basket and beans I'm using it looks like it sets around 10g which seems a touch high - more in line with some other comments I have seen some where or the other. On the Sage single it looked low but the basket doesn't leave much of a parallel section for tamping. I was tamping partly against the shoulder rather than all on the grinds.

Other things seem to be changing. Probably grind so have just tried conditioning the burrs a bit with 500g of fresh roasted I bought by mistake.







The mini took 1/2 hour of busy Starbucks use without any signs of heating.

John

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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I think I remember reading the sage single was better than most - but they are usually very temperamental and very sensitive to anything thats off in prep or grind. I had a single a while back but the amount of coffee I wasted with it meant it just made more sense to make a double and be done with it.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've had a lot of trouble with the DB's Sage single. For a "sensible" fill what ever that is the distance down to the shoulder before it tapers is too short. It really had me going when I tried the razor tool on it - the depth of that is ever so close to the shoulder. What I found I was doing is tamping onto the shoulder rather than just the grinds when I messed with the weight. There is very little scope for fill level variation. To get round that I have been using a Fracino 7 gram single. It holds 9 odd grams with the bean I am using at the moment.







I'd crept up to 10.5g which is what seems to cause the holes. Probably nearly a gram too much.

I've also used the razor tool on another basket, comes out at 13g and going on the puck sets a height which may be a bit too high but usable. Actually if I find an extra 0.2g or so reliably gives me a nice dry puck I will do that. This is an IMS The Single 23mm high - they make several different heights. That's 13g of dark roast monsooned malabar but this batch is denser than they usually are as the beans had less colour. NVG as far as I am concerned, a slight burnt smell is better but needs leaving for a while before using them. If the beans were correct 13g might compare with 14g of other beans as far as fill level goes.

My wife might not like what comes out via the IMS basket when the beans are right hence looking at the Fracino single. Now I have a better idea what is going on I'll probably try the Sage single again but am pretty sure I just wont get on with it.

:act-up:Singles are great fun but things do get pretty critical. I managed to tame the one that comes with the BE and used little else. It needs strong beans for my size of long black.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

:act-up:As controversial as it is I'm going to stick to aiming for the pucks I obtained from the BE. With the current set up a puck from 13g leaves some residue but not that much. Up that to 13.2g and it knocks out easily and pretty cleanly. It has a slight lump in the middle due to the hex socket in the shower screen fixing screw. I've used the size of that to keep a grinder timer on track daily on the BE so might work out on the DB. So I am probably over filling - hard to check as the shower screen is wet when I fit the portafilter. I'm using 12 sec infusion at the default power and a 40 sec shot gives 1 to 2. Flow starts at 8 sec. For me results seem to be better than I could achieve on the BE when the roast was off. The other batch I had like this was more off though - no oily beans. This one had a few and they have all oiled up a bit now but the colour is a lot lighter than it usually is. Monsooned looses it's sweetness brewed like this and that's how I like it.

Why work like this - when I drink coffee out it's unusual to see some one cleaning up the filter basket and this seems to be the only way of achieving the same thing.

I'm wondering if any one has switched their DB to volume based shots rather than time? My BE seems to work that way and I wonder if it helps with consistency. Not very accurate but pushed things the right way.

John

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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Volume based short are the norm - thats why the advice is to start out with a 1:2 ratio of beans to liquid - you aim to hit this volume is about 25 secs (for a double) but this is just a starting point. These are just the figures you need to get the same shot time and again. A 40 second shot producing 34g will taste very different to a 25 second shot producing 34g, and a 30g shot over 25 seconds will taste very different to a 20g shot over 25 seconds. If you want consistency you need all these figures.

TBH if you are going for forge forward with using the single basket then overfilling may be the only way to prevent the puck from fracturing and producing a terrible shot. If the puck is falling apart given the proper head room and space to expand then perhaps over filling it is forcing it to keep its shape.

To be clear here however - you are completely handicapping your ability to make good coffee - why spend money on decent equipment and then use a basket and prep technique which is going to be producing a sub standard shot. Its like grinding all your beans at the start of the week because its more convenient to you and not caring that it ruins the flavour. All this experimenting with the single basket should be telling you is that its nigh impossible to get a good shot when you prep the basket properly - this should lead you to abandon what you know to be the problem which is the basket itself - not try and force it to work with a bandaid solution of pressing the grinds up into the shower screen.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Dylan said:


> To be clear here however - you are completely handicapping your ability to make good coffee - why spend money on decent equipment and then use a basket and prep technique which is going to be producing a sub standard shot. Its like grinding all your beans at the start of the week because its more convenient to you and not caring that it ruins the flavour. All this experimenting with the single basket should be telling you is that its nigh impossible to get a good shot when you prep the basket properly - this should lead you to abandon what you know to be the problem which is the basket itself - not try and force it to work with a bandaid solution of pressing the grinds up into the shower screen.


You can taste telepathically I assume ? As I mentioned I like the taste it produces. I can also produce the sweet taste the bean can give or anything in between. Fracturing pucks - might be your experience but not mine on any basket. This particular single has about the same capacity of a commercial standard 12g light double basket and in real terms doesn't fall a lot short of what a standard 14g double holds. Sage do not rule the world as far as basket capacity goes - in fact they are unusual in that respect. Unique might be a better word. I just wont put up with messy pucks and it's as simple as that.

Sorry about that style of response but do you really think I am not aware of the points you made about shot time? And as mentioned I like the taste I get. That is purely down to me and no one else. The comments are in some ways insulting.

Anyway. Maybe you missed the point. I asked if anyone had tried using their DB in it's volumetric shot mode rather timed shots.

John

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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Not trying to insult you, you have gone through in the last few posts trying to dose with head space and finding it doesn't work very well, in fact working worse than a puck which is filled to the shower screen. I am guessing at fractured pucks (I, nor anyone else can see what is happening inside a basket) as this would follow reason - your shots are worse, you cant evenly tamp a single basket (not you specifically, its the nature of the basket with a sloping bottom) and the puck is expanding more during extraction (this much is obvious) - this all would contribute to fractured pucks. By 'fractured puck' I simply mean the water does not travel through it evenly, but breaks it apart due to expansion and channels through. Fractured pucks would make sense in terms of loss of flavour and wet pucks which you have described - I am simply trying to offer this as an explanation for your observations.

It doesn't matter that the basket is 12g (more than the 7g of other singles on the market) what matters is that the sides slope in to a reduced screen. This makes it impossible to tamp evenly.

I had written quite a lot extra to this post, but ultimately it condensed down to these points:

You dont like the single basket with headroom - this is your experience and absolutely fair enough

You like the shot from the single basket 'over filled' - this is also fair enough. You like what you like, I like sugar in my coffee even though others insist the coffee is sweet enough if extracted properly. A point here however is that just because you like something, doesn't mean it cant be better. Plenty of people like supermarket ground coffee and plenty of people enjoy Starbucks.

The coffee will almost certainly taste better if made in the double basket - I would say even if you are really averse to the extra wastage and cost that you should at least try making a coffee from this basket just to experiment with your own machine and tastes and see if you prefer it - if after this you still want to use the single for what ever reason then at least you know you aren't missing out.

I did misunderstand what you were asking about volumetric shots, my comments followed this misunderstanding and were not meant to condescend.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Actually I am using an IMS basket that looks nothing like the Sage one or any other typical single. It looks like the Sage razor tool over doses on all of their machines. From playing with a whole variety of fill heights I feel they do know what they are doing. I'm not keen on the DB's single because it seems to leave no scope other than what the razor leaves. Less is likely to leave the tamper pressing on the shoulder before the taper rather than the grounds.

The basket I am using is very similar to this one - they do a variety of heights with the same style









If I used the same weight in a double basket it would result in a very soggy mess and a crap drink. I might get away with the usual commercial design of a 12g basket but it would probably result in stronger drink than I want. I will try that at some point. My view on taste is that if I can still taste the drink say 5min or more after I have drunk it then it's not for me. That isn't the same as liking weak coffee. I don't.

I have tried exactly what you suggest as well but grind and quantity can have a big effect on taste. Lower basket weights allow finer grinds. Actually on another bean I have used more and changed the grind to suite. It worked rather well on my BE but so far wont work on the DB. I've bought a lighter roast of the same bean hoping this will solve that. With that one I want the flavour profile the bean should have but at a strength where that can be appreciated. One monsooned I like to drop the sweetness. The best way to do that seems to be to extract more from the bean - longer shot times down to finer grinding.







I don't think anyone would like to drink what I get out of it as an espresso.

Out of interest I have put several kg of beans into what could be called singles. I've lost count of how many and have always achieved consistent results with them. My family like the drinks too - an important fact for me. My wife in particular is tricky - any bitterness just isn't on. That's why I mostly used MM right from the start. Lots of people do like it.

John

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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@ajohn

BUT, coffee is all about extraction......if you extract say 2:1 from 12 grams, it should taste the same as 2:1 from 18 grams, allowing for the larger volume. This is what I do not understand about what you are trying to achieve


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> @ajohn
> 
> BUT, coffee is all about extraction......if you extract say 2:1 from 12 grams, it should taste the same as 2:1 from 18 grams, allowing for the larger volume. This is what I do not understand about what you are trying to achieve


I'm not sure that's true, one may require quite a different grind setting to the other and I think you'd end up with a difference.

Still, I agree with many other people who have commented already - using these single baskets is making life hard, you'll get better results with a higher dose in a bigger basket. I sometimes don't always want a full double, for example in the afternoon. I just make my normal double and then don't drink it all.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

What does a double taste like (if you only drink half of it taste like)?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

My shots finish up in 300ml odd of water for a long black. Currently the ratio is 1 to 2 for 13g in over 40 sec. If I could obtain the same taste from 18g there would be and extra X% of taste going into the drink. However I don't think I could achieve the same taste because the grind I use at 13g would probably choke the machine with 18g in the double.

At 30 sec I get about 1 to 1.5. That is what produces the bulk of the taste yet this is called under extraction. Just about everyone knows what would happen if I altered the grind to change that. I'm varying time at the moment and haven't tried a drink with a 30 sec shot. I've run through what I can do with a basket holding around 9.5g, also another that ups that into the 10's. Now it's circa 13g. The commercial 12g is next. The 13g is likely to be the one I'll finish up using except for my wife. The 12g will probably hold 14g of my current MM.

I'm trying to duplicate the taste I obtained with 9.3g in the BE single but don't mind it being stronger. I'm more or less 100% sure I wont do that with 9.3g. Initially there was so much difference I thought seriously about selling the DB and going back to it.

I don't think anyone can be 100% sure what will happen when something is changed. I make a point of preheating the portafilter - too hot to touch. Last night and this morning I didn't. The result was interesting stronger and a more lingering taste - too much of that really. Preheating for me was essential on the BE or the strength of the output went up shot by shot when I did 3 one after another.







Not sure what I will do about that, maybe pull mine first.

Redber are making life difficult for me though. Dark roast but lighter than what I usually get off them. Just a few beans showed oil as received. They are now darker and all show oil. The smaller pile is my previous batch. Hard to show clearly via a photo. It would have been easy as they arrived.

View attachment 33661


The current roast has a tendency to yield more spicy taste. Lighter ones do for a drop off in taste levels. The previous batch had a burnt smell but that goes pretty quickly and all of the beans were oily with some colour variation. Usually no burnt smell but that aspect doesn't seem to matter that much. The latest ones were far more even. I'm going to have to have words. I suspect they have had complaints about uneven roasts on the darker ones so try to comply. Not sure. I can get them elsewhere and all will be very dark with very even colouring but a lot less oil so it's probably been burnt off to get them like that. When I get what I want I will probably have to tune again. I also tried a special roast off a well known company who sell a jampit equivalent - hopeless and no oil showing at all or even while the batch was used up.

LOL People need to appreciate that I am inclined to try "things", comes from many years of doing that for a living. I have drunk rather a lot of MM and tried a number of others and ways of brewing them all. I'd suspect that people would need the double for milk based. No one here drinks those now. The other 2 did initially. They expected Starbuck's bitterness.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> My shots finish up in 300ml odd of water for a long black. Currently the ratio is 1 to 2 for 13g in over 40 sec. If I could obtain the same taste from 18g there would be and extra X% of taste going into the drink. However I don't think I could achieve the same taste because the grind I use at 13g would probably choke the machine with 18g in the double.
> 
> At 30 sec I get about 1 to 1.5. That is what produces the bulk of the taste yet this is called under extraction.


Grinding coarser would allow you to get the same taste from 18g, but then you would need to dilute to 450g total to correct the strength. Despite your constant claims that you don't like weak coffee, the coffee you are making is substantially weaker than most here would make. Of course, you should make what you & your family enjoy, but your perspective on strength is only really applicable to your situation.

1:1 or 1:1.5 will likely under-extract (all coffee is under-extracted until it is not), but then you have no evidence that your 1:2 shots aren't under-extracted either. If you knew what your extractions were, I'm sure that you would tell us.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Grinding coarser would allow you to get the same taste from 18g, but then you would need to dilute to 450g total to correct the strength. Despite your constant claims that you don't like weak coffee, the coffee you are making is substantially weaker than most here would make. Of course, you should make what you & your family enjoy, but your perspective on strength is only really applicable to your situation.
> 
> 1:1 or 1:1.5 will likely under-extract (all coffee is under-extracted until it is not), but then you have no evidence that your 1:2 shots aren't under-extracted either. If you knew what your extractions were, I'm sure that you would tell us.


As I have tried coarser grind and larger baskets I can say that you are entirely wrong. The taste changes. I've tried a huge range of combinations. From time to time I try something out - maybe you should too.

One of the strange things about coffee is that because some particular person hasn't done what another has they feel that they can make specific comments about it.

Also quote from a Sage Manual - seen all over the place in one form or another - shots 30ml or 60ml extraction time over 40 sec over extracted, 25 to 35 balance, under 20 under extracted. So if I get 1 to 2 after 40 sec what am I doing? Actually on the last shot it was 41 secs as some one distracted me.

I wonder how many people have followed that and added 1 to 2 and not liked what comes out. Those posts seem to crop up from time to time.

Baskets - the whole wide world uses notional 7 and 14g baskets. Sage ??????????? I suspect I do know why they do what they do with baskets but aren't going there. I don't think it's down to their machines offering inferior extraction.

A bit like supermarket beans in some ways - some say no good at all. I'd ask if anyone has tried all of the ones that are available. Then they would be entitled to say that but on the other hand some might like some or even all of them -







I would have thought the later was unlikely though.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> As I have tried coarser grind and larger baskets I can say that you are entirely wrong. The taste changes. I've tried a huge range of combinations. From time to time I try something out - maybe you should too.


What have I tried & what have I not tried? I know what you say you are doing because you tell us. You only know what I do if I tell you.

I make 10g singles & 18g doubles at the same grind setting, the singles need more water pushed through the puck to hit the same flavour balance. Doubles can hit it with less water pushed through the puck, so they are stronger/more concentrated. I choose not to grind finer to pull the singles shorter, because even if they extract normally (17-20%EY) they start to taste silty/powdery and I don't like it. My singles are weak for espresso, but clean & balanced and about 3x stronger than your Americanos.



ajohn said:


> One of the strange things about coffee is that because some particular person hasn't done what another has they feel that they can make specific comments about it.


You're making a comment about what I may/may not have done without any specifics/two way discussion at all. The force seems much stronger in you than in me, I have no extra sensory abilities. But you tell us that you use 12g of coffee to make a 300ml beverage. Mathematically, allowing for reasonable extraction, it's just not possible that you are making coffee that is deemed "strong" by any existing guide to brewed coffee/Americano/long black.

Normal brewed coffee is around 1.15% to 1.55% strength. If your coffee isn't astringent & drying you're extracting normally at most, say 21% of the dose.

12*0.21=2.52g

2.52/300=0.84% concentration. It might taste lovely, I don't know, I have never tasted it. But it's not strong.

You talk about over & under extraction by discussing every aspect except extraction itself. If you grind too fine your shots don't keep rising in possible extraction, after a point they drop again...even if the shot takes a relatively long time.



ajohn said:


> Also quote from a Sage Manual - seen all over the place in one form or another - shots 30ml or 60ml extraction time over 40 sec over extracted, 25 to 35 balance, under 20 under extracted. So if I get 1 to 2 after 40 sec what am I doing? Actually on the last shot it was 41 secs as some one distracted me.


If you get 24g out from 12g in 41sec, you are getting 24g out from 12g in 41sec. Level of extraction is not specified. If you were over-extracting the coffee would be smokey/sickly/mouth drying, but you are saying that this is not the case. We can therefore assume you are not over-extracting.



ajohn said:


> Baskets - the whole wide world uses notional 7 and 14g baskets. Sage ??????????? I suspect I do know why they do what they do with baskets but aren't going there. I don't think it's down to their machines offering inferior extraction.
> 
> .


This is simply untrue.

As I only know what you tell me, unless Sage have told you why they use 9-10g singles & 15-18g doubles in 54mm, 20g in the 58mm, you're just making assumptions that you know why they do it (rather than actually knowing it). Everyone has ideas, thoughts & theories, that's great, you don't have to have proof for everything you say, nor to back up every preference, but don't play both ends against the middle & tell us what you are doing then make comments about what others "think" you are doing - we know because you tell us.

If I was telepathic, if I did know unknown things through some magical power, I wouldn't be wasting my time here, I'd be down the betting shop adding to my vast riches.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Jony said:


> Great Holiday read this,


LOL I find it a bit boring at times but MJWB's post was interesting - real information. Lots of readers as the saga runs on but dropping off and I have one more basket to try when I have finished with the current one. There are people on here that do use smaller than Sage sizes - one told me that a small tamper was needed to use 6g in a 6g basket - disappointing for me but checked and they are entirely correct. 8.5g was too much in a 7g basket. I was trying to compare 9.3g on 2 different machines.

If some one said that their drink was a bit bitter another might say coarsen the grind implying that this will change taste. Maybe some day the opposite will happen. Taste and extraction levels are 2 entirely different things and grind does change taste.

I'm trying to duplicate a drink I obtained from my BE appearance wise I have after a fashion but it needs fine grinding

View attachment 33685


There is a bit more of what I want coming out of the DB, that's ok but crema wont last as long. Pity but ok.

Last night I tried a lower dose along with a finer grind. 12.3g gave me what I liked to see on the BE before adjusting further. Some slight wrinkles on the top of the puck and no signs of the shower screen. It's just short of touching and a decent puck. Interesting light drink - little mouth taste as it's drunk but a pleasant tongue taste after each big sip. This morning 12.7g. More or less as I want it but a depression on the side the water goes in behind the shower screen - not much of one but pressing too hard onto the shower screen. I eyeballed the output this time and my usual level took 60 secs. So next time less and finer still.

Stronger than 13g can produce - same effect as I saw on the BE, too much more doesn't strengthen the drink.

Eyeballed - turns out that my small scales and mug wont fit under the DB's portafilter - it's deeper than the BE's. I do have a way around that though. Remove and weigh, establish a time by returning it to the machine and giving the puck more 9 bar. If the shot was short a simple sum will give an idea of how much more 9 bar is needed. Then the shot time can be set and checked off the machine on scales. Checking that way every time on the BE was pointless. That's why I wonder if it's worth switching the DB to volume shots rather than time. Ideally then I would want scales on the machine to the volume.

Out of interest MWJB brewing 10g in a DB single is likely to prove problematic unless an undersized tamper is used - tricky as it would be against the taper. Some one else reported this and I didn't entirely believe them so tried. This led to me not trusting the razor tool any more. As it turns out it leaves a bit more in than I would normally use so given a new bean to try or a none Sage basket I can still use it as I did on the BE. I could also modify it a bit to set the level a bit lower. Best to see what it does on other beans first. When fitted the DB's shower screen is concave. The razor just about scrapes at it's central height but leave things flat.







Maybe they should make the razor match the shape. I'll soon find out how much extra it leaves so not a problem really. Doh - I want to try a different shower screen and it's thicker especially at the edge so it will need different weights.

Basket sizes - the lady at Fracino didn't want me to buy a complete set. I wonder why. Nothing to do with stock only what people actually buy. I spend a lot of time looking around for different basket sizes.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Im a bit lost , you are stopping a shot by time? weighing it ? Then starting the shot again to get to a desired weight? It's a little unclear .

Really just buy some scales that fit in your drip tray, your making life way too complicated.

Also can you explain what you mean by this ?

"Ideally then I would want scales on the machine to the volume"


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

I've never seen so much thought put into how much coffee to put into a basket before


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

When you've finished you're adventures in basket is there any chance you could do a summary in just 3 bullet points.

I read blocks of text and I'm still none the wiser.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

fluffles said:


> I've never seen so much thought put into how much coffee to put into a basket before


LOL It's more than somewhat concerned with my aim with MM and my wife's drink. Perhaps best described as getting as much out of the bean as it can give for me and same but weaker for wifey. To give you an idea at one stage on the BE my son spotted me part pulling the shot again through the same puck and said why do that. there is just water coming out. I can have another reason for doing it as well - to see what's is left in a bean.

Fill height - The shower screen arrangement on the DB is "interesting". The BE's less "interesting". Piccino, totally boring, maybe as these things should be.

I knew some one at some point would say that a Mazzer mini isn't a proper grinder or something to that effect. Sage - well it might do a better job of what I am trying to do. It's an odd subject. I had a PM for instance from some one telling me that they hadn't stopped with one long enough and just like everyone else went for a mazzer. Some comments on them are positive one way or another. Bigger flat burr for me - highly unlikely. Fit jolly burrs to see if grind rate makes any difference, maybe. From comments some time ago I may get away with that on MM but I wouldn't on another I use.

I also have another grinder about that uses smaller flat burrs. It seems some one sold that a month after they bought it. I'm way more persistent than that. Mind you I think it needs a wrap of ptfe tape around the adjustment thread.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've already had the coffee compass jampit journey following @dfk41 post on it. I assume that was the Blawan version. They seem to have the real one now. Also bought a batch of monsooned from them. Disappointed with that. Much easier to handle than the roast I normally use and very evenly roasted. Redber's are at that roast level as well - fully dark roast that sends all of the beans oily from day one very probably will show signs of an uneven roast. At this level there is a problem - roast too much and the oil starts to burn off. I did find a source where all beans were very dark and even - less oil.

Redber's last batch that I am using at the moment is problematic. Still dark but very noticeably lighter than usual. Result just a few beans show oil. I noticed 2 on top when I tipped them into the can. They have all slowly darkened and oiled up now - sort of moving target for tuning. I should have left them alone for around 2 weeks by the look of it but had run out and was also curious about what this roast would do. Actually the darkening and oiling up is probably why I am getting the sort of taste I want now. The roast I usually get does change a bit - beans start sticking to the can I keep them in but no noticeable taste change. Some batches have had a burnt smell - goes in a couple of days. There is a really good review on how it should be roasted on coffee compass's site.

So if you reckon you have tried monsoon you haven't unless you have tried all of the roast levels. The one I use can go from sweet to smooth with a bit of a bite. I don't think it's possible to make it go bitter. Extraction wise







I'm well into the weak bitter area and am very likely to buy an optical refractometer to find out how weak. Not the type I described though as they are well over £300 so would have to be a cheapy - crica £15 for one that has temp correction built in.

Monsoon is my "cooking" drink. Sort it out and mostly drink it when I want a cup of coffee. I also buy smaller packs of others to try - hence needing 2 grinders. The latest one of those is Guatemala Antigua Los Volcanes in medium dark. Arrives next week. I also play with Sumatra Mandheling - very successfully on the BE. A basket that held 14g and a "gentle" wash at 14 bar, OPV not opening. Something different, light, herbal and muted acidity. Dark roast. I don't think I can do it on the DB so have a lighter roast to try. It's a bean that is only usually used in blends and not too much as it's over powering - a different type of strong bean that it seems can produce an interesting light drink.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Oil on beans as a target for tuning, not heard that before. How do those of us who brew with beans that show no oil manage to make a shot?

You don't seem to need any kind of refractometer (though, one that works would be a better bet) as you know where you are already.

Have you just awoken after being cryogenically frozen since 2000?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Oil on beans as a target for tuning, not heard that before. How do those of us who brew with beans that show no oil manage to make a shot?
> 
> You don't seem to need any kind of refractometer (though, one that works would be a better bet) as you know where you are already.
> 
> Have you just awoken after being cryogenically frozen since 2000?


Thank you for a bit of a crackpot post.

I did mention that roast level on MM does change taste.

John

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## Snakehips (Jun 2, 2015)

@ajohn In all seriousness, I woke up this morning thinking about you. Not the best start to a Saturday morning I grant you but I've had worse.









Given your obvious interest in MM and in recognition of you being a good sport as well as something of a coffee enigma, I was going to PM you and ask if you would like me to send you a bag of Rave MM beans.

The Rave MM is one of many different beans that we enjoy on an ongoing basis. For us, it never fails to deliver so I wondered if you would care to try some.

Having now read post #228 I am unsure that it such a good idea as the Rave MM is consistently and evenly roasted and shows no sign of oil whatsoever. I haven't actually tried the sticking to tin test but I suspect they would fail.









If despite the above you should wish for me to send you a bag to try then please don't hesitate to let me know.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Thank you for a bit of a crackpot post.
> 
> I did mention that roast level on MM does change taste.
> 
> ...


Sure, roasting makes the flavour in that bean, how much you roast affects the flavour too. But you can't convey the specific flavour, nor necessarily repeat it from crop to crop & most of us change beans regularly because we want to change the flavour (maintaining controls in our brewing to best achieve our preference). It's great to know what you like, but looking for how much visible oils doesn't help us understand how you make coffee, nor help anyone who is struggling.

There are 3 companies that market a refractometer that reads in %TDS (coffee concentration), none of these cost £15 (even optical Brix refractometers are £100-£200 from reputable sources). So, if you take a reading from an optical refractometer made by the lowest bidder & the tell us the Brix reading, that will be interesting for you to know, but not part of a discussion you can have with anyone else. You will also have had to filter the sample and weighed dose & output, which it seems you are not inclined to do. These discussions have been had many, many times on public forums in the last 10years, I get a lot of use & value from my refractometer & it's something that interests me, but even I don't think I can face your arbitrary revisions/exclusions of the last decade's advances in tech.

Maybe if something catches your attention and you want to discuss it, do a few searches, build up a picture of that subject first, or ask here (and be open to the responses).


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Snakehips said:


> @ajohn In all seriousness, I woke up this morning thinking about you. Not the best start to a Saturday morning I grant you but I've had worse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the offer. I made a mistake early on. First supplier was coffee direct, dark roast again and more or less the first bag of fresh roasted I bought, somewhat oily. I've bean pretty hooked ever since. Also bought a commercial blend as it was called and an Italian one. I decided to stick to origin. Coffee direct charge more for less and I wasn't happy about postal charges so went Redber and found for that it's a better bean.







The uneven roast tends to even out in the can but unlike this later one I'm using doesn't seem to change things. I've tried several roasts and started playing with the medium and medium dark on the BE but then changed machines. However it's roasted Redber describe it as

Rich, smoky and earthy coffee with a monotone smoothness and a sweet spicy kick

I associate spicy with lighter roasts that don't show oil at all. A sort of bitterness but not the correct word to use. It needs more coffee than the oily ones and that was a problem on the BE until I found a 14g basket that I could use on it. It could well be worth trying it in it's double as well. Smoky - pass what I taste doesn't match that as I would expect. Pushed hard which I couldn't do on the BE reliably it seems it can get a bit of a bite to the taste but that might just be the roast I have at the moment.








So in short on this bean oil most definitely does it for me. Redber do get complaints about it choking grinders. I suspect that's why they do a medium dark. I saw no oil on that.They have also added another bean, India Mysore Bababudan as an alternative. They sent me a sample. Interesting bean but 125g is low to explore it more. 250 is hard enough.

The mazzer mini might not be happy with the bean. Not sure. Sage no problem other than a maybe unusual one. From a clean grinder the timer needed regular adjustments to maintain the dose for a week or so. I had ground enough to condition retention. Then it settled down to needing twitches once or twice a week. In total about 1/3 of a turn of the knob on the BE. Twitches - tiny. No signs of grind changing. The Mazzer seems to be collecting the odd 1/10g or so lately and spitting them out now and again. I cleaned it out after a fair amount of use on the bean and there was little retention - I dot punched one of the tongues on the burr carrier so that I could always place it in the rear slot - thanks to the person who mentioned that they loose setting after a clean - this should and does seem to retain them. It went back as it was.







Maybe it would have done anyway.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Time for the Sage grinder while some of these are left. Guessed a setting. Gave 1 to 4 in 30 sec. I know better than to give it complete clean out so slight taste from the Sumatra bean.







Probably the only way of getting that level of blend. If I added enough beans to stand a fair chance of getting the same all of the time it would kill the other one.

Put 12.0g in and 12.0 came out. That expanded enough to hit the shower screen - bugging me some what. Probably the ever roasting bean but not sure.

John

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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

I'm confused...

You say about the CC MM

"Also bought a batch of monsooned from them. Disappointed with that. Much easier to handle than the roast I normally use and very evenly roasted."

You are disappointed that a bean is easy to use and evenly roasted? May I ask why?

I've been following this thread with fascination, and am slightly bemused. Wouldn't it be more interesting to try a variety of roasters rather than a variety of baskets, fill levels etc?

And surely if you were approaching this from an engineering/science perspective you'd be much more concerned with data than you appear to be? (I remember with horror being forced to titrate stuff and calculate molar weights... I'm much more of a fast and loose player)


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Missy said:


> I'm confused...
> 
> You say about the CC MM
> 
> ...


Good to here from you Missy. Roast on MM is important to me - and even but lighter roast than the one I like to use has a different taste. When the beans are oily and stick to the can and need the hopper washing out every 500g or so they suite me. This roast tends to be a bit uneven. As I mentioned it does tend to even up in the bean can. I suspect this roast level is tricky. So far I only know of 2 suppliers.

The roast I currently have is different - just a few oily beans showing and a more even and lighter colour. I thought when they arrived ok I can work on a lighter roast of MM. I do now and again. They have darkened and oiled up more over a couple of weeks in the can. More recently they have been giving the type of taste I want. Looks like I have been chasing a result from a slowly changing source.

Fill level - I'm used to setting one via a weight - I may pay more attention to that than others do. Once set I expect that to be that. Clear of shower screen, just touching or maybe hitting it pretty firmly. That is definitely not that on the grinder, bean and machine I am currently using. It;s all not taking much notice of weight. Weights that should be clear aren't any more. Currently I have no idea why but suspect it's the ever changing bean that seems to have changed as much as it can now -







Hard to be sure. The filter basket I am using has an unusual design as well.

I did work in D&D not R&D. Development meaning things will be made not maybe as in research. It's a cause and effect world. Changing one thing can mess up something else. There is no way of working on "things" unless effect of changes can be understood. Sometimes that means blind stabs in the dark to find out.

Coffee - I work through a range of weights and ratios and pick one based on taste. Simple as that. No assumptions as to what it should be. No need to weigh out as I will have picked one based on taste. If taste changes then something has changed. Then I may weigh out. I would have probably noticed a significant change in that anyway - glass mugs via the handle position.







I do have a feeling that a BE helps keep output constant but no time to go back at the moment and make sure. Maybe I might find that I should switch the DB from time to volume shots. Depends if I get taste changes I shouldn't have when it's set for time.

John

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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Good to here from you Missy. Roast on MM is important to me - and even but lighter roast than the one I like to use has a different taste. When the beans are oily and stick to the can and need the hopper washing out every 500g or so they suite me. This roast tends to be a bit uneven. As I mentioned it does tend to even up in the bean can. I suspect this roast level is tricky. So far I only know of 2 suppliers.
> 
> The roast I currently have is different - just a few oily beans showing and a more even and lighter colour. I thought when they arrived ok I can work on a lighter roast of MM. I do now and again. They have darkened and oiled up more over a couple of weeks in the can. More recently they have been giving the type of taste I want. Looks like I have been chasing a result from a slowly changing source.
> 
> ...


Can you summarise these 5 paragraphs in single bullet points or do a video of your shot prep and shot?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Can you summarise these 5 paragraphs in single bullet points or do a video of your shot prep and shot?


No. Those are 5 bullet points. The last one describes my work flow as it is other than the obvious one - grinder settings.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Worrying moment with the Sage grinder. 2nd shot so expected contamination from another bean to be less and it wasn't. It's had a rather large selection of beans run through it and has never been fully cleaned out. I leave the grind chamber alone as that's the area that takes a while to settle down. Whoopee This mornings shot had the taste it should have but grinder not correctly set yet but close.








Went back to fill level so upped the amount. The puck was fine as far as I'm concerned. It did show the shower screen pattern. Came out pretty cleanly. Level a bit short of where the razor tool would leave it. I seem to have less flexibility in this area than on the BE. The machine or basket - pass. The IMS "The Single" style baskets are rather different to others. Of late the shower screen imprint has been there over getting on for 1g variation in fill weight going lower. Pucks messy.

:act-up:Yes one day I will need to fully clean out the SGP but only when I find I need to. Refurbished so it still probably has traces of the beans the person who returned it some where in it. They would be deeply buried by now.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MildredM said:


> I may regret this but what does this mean?[/i][/color]* Glass mugs via the handle position. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL yes for major changes that don't happen unless I fail to reset a grinder to what it should have been. After a while I get used to where it should finish up. Long blacks and the water output is pretty consistent. I run that until it times out. From time to time but not often that needs adjusting up. However the point where brew output matters is when it changes taste. From my experience if I keep the dose within limits and the grind the same the taste wont change. There is no particular reason why I should weigh out. Say I change grind and I guess the ratio from level in the mug. I know the time it took. I taste - wow that's great. So I could just use the time it took. I might look at a range of ratio's. No need to measure what comes out. It might take 20sec, 40sec or 1/2hr. All that matters is taste.

Actually if I had to play around more with this current bean I could guess the time for circa 1 to 3 simply by the time it took for flow to start during infusion.

I believe I have mentioned that I suspect I have been using a machine that uses a volume based output. The above still stands.

I have a certain attitude about making coffee - it should be exactly the same as when I drink it out. Timed grinder, whack it in the machine and produce a drink.







So you can imagine what I think about adding lens hoods etc to a grinder or for that matter using one with doser. I visit several places now and again, all work that way and their drinks always taste the same. These machines are very likely to use volume based shots. One did change recently. New machine, grinder and person using it. Must be a barista as he has tattoos and looks at his pucks.

Any way. Last shot of these beans went in the sage grinder. Best yet and I think I found why I have been having level problems. Odd tamping problem. Trapped pockets of air. One shot means nothing really but that would explain what has been happening. These IMS baskets have a very restricted area of perforations. Oily grinds and even 17kg doesn't get them out. I tamped in a rather odd way, level went down and a perfect shot. Why did I tamp this way - pass. I just did.

John

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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The thing is, if you cannot guarantee the same starting point for every shot (not weighing, unconfirmed tamp pressure etc) how can your taste buds possibly give you the data that you think you have? I have long held a viewpoint, that the coffee anyone makes falls in to two categories, drink it or sink it. yes, if it is drinkable then some might be nicer than others but without good shot prep in my humble, you are kidding yourself and pissing in the dark John. You have to have a level playing field, unless you are of the opinion that your way of doing this is right (for you, you cannot improve on that system by mimicking) all the other coffee bods who subscribe to a different approach


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> The thing is, if you cannot guarantee the same starting point for every shot (not weighing, unconfirmed tamp pressure etc) how can your taste buds possibly give you the data that you think you have? I have long held a viewpoint, that the coffee anyone makes falls in to two categories, drink it or sink it. yes, if it is drinkable then some might be nicer than others but without good shot prep in my humble, you are kidding yourself and pissing in the dark John. You have to have a level playing field, unless you are of the opinion that your way of doing this is right (for you, you cannot improve on that system by mimicking) all the other coffee bods who subscribe to a different approach


That suggests I don't tune a bean in at all. Rubbish. From man that if I remember correctly accepts a certain degree of variation in output and might even throw some flow away. Nothing wrong with that. Some weigh out - do they check if shot time has varied. When it comes to precise limits when doing that one of time or output will vary.

What I was pointing out is that tuning can be done in several ways and in a sense it doesn't matter which. People will choose a grind,







in my case an amount that can vary a lot, and a shot time or a volume that suites their taste. That results in ratio. Ratio's for what people may want will vary. It's more of an end result.

So say I eyeball 1 to 3 or some such. I've recorded a time. I taste. It has a ratio but I don't need to measure it. If I reduce the time it will be lower, increase it and it will be higher.

Eyeballing - I just filled my mug to it's usual position and then added 44ml. The level changes more than the thickness of the handle where it balloons out to meet the glass. If you reckon i can't eyeball within reason using that is fine by me or see what I would regard as significant changes that will alter taste.

Where it can be useful is a new bean or basket. I can get a decent idea of the shot time visually. LOL I then measure it lately. Say it happened to be 1 to 1.8 or 1 to 2.2 what's different to carefully adjusting to 1 to 2 when I am aware that I may not be using that ratio. It might and does at times turn out that it needs to be lower or higher at 30 sec and the shot needs to run longer or shorter.

I haven't had a single in the sink shot from the DB yet other than the Sumatra bean. 3 of those. Taste has varied a lot on MM but now finally is more or less there. Actually I probably prefer the DB taste to the BE one. Need more beans and the new batch is just like the previous one. Most or all of the puck and MM problems may just to be down to what for me is a new tamping problem. Pressure hasn't varied. As I happened to have one that I intended to turn down for use on the BE and didn't I've been using a calibrated one.set to 15kg. I don't think upping that would cure the problem. I do press a bit harder anyway so more like 17kg.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Some weigh out - do they check if shot time has varied. When it comes to precise limits when doing that one of time or output will vary.


Yes, the time varies for the same weight out. That's fine, the tolerance on time is far bigger than the tolerance on weight.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Qoute " You also have to accept, that the results you are getting are severely impaired by the quality of machine and grinder you are playing around with. "

So both the Sage DB and the Mazzer MIni poor quality machines ? As home kit goes I don't think I would agree with that. I wont comment on the rest other than my baseline is taste usually starting off by obtaining the taste the bean should have. Then the taste I like if needed.

Volume - if you looker around at commercial machines you would find that many contain a rotary pump and a flow meter. They are volumetric, they attempt to maintain the volume of the shot.

The beans in the batch I have just used up and the one that arrived today roasts are not just slightly different. Bear in mind that I have brewed several kg of the level of roast they usually supply.







Not wise as too soon I brewed a shot with them this morning. It's the first shot I have ever pulled where I can see light through the mug. Using beans this quickly is naughty but I have done this many times with the same bean from the same supplier. In fact I have continued using them due to ordering mishaps. I prefer to leave them for 3 days min. The roast I have probably need 2 weeks and probably still wont be the same.

The problem I have bean having is an interesting one and not happened before. A while ago some one asked why bubbles were coming out of their portafiter. Posted a video too. I had noticed some on the DB especially with the IMS baskets. Nothing as sever as this person was having. It turns out that when I tamp air is being trapped. Gets hot when the water goes in and expands many times and mucks the puck up. Low fills can look high - in part because they could tamp lower in the first place and also due to the expansion of the air. Fix - wobble the tamper about all over the place with high pressure levels. Actual 12 to 6 o'clock plus 3 to 9 seem to do it. The first time I did it I was surprised how much further the tamper went down. 2nd time same result, that with the latest batch. 13g is no longer the max fill for the basket. Puck was low and fairly decent in my terms.

You might say the perils of finely ground oily beans but it's never happened before. After the wobble flow out has been exactly as it should be. No stutter bubbles or anything. Flow rate very similar. From the time to flow during infusion I decided on 40 sec. Output 42 from 13g - just about what I would expect. Taste with new batch NVG. It wont be any different for some time.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Volume - if you looker around at commercial machines you would find that many contain a rotary pump and a flow meter. They are volumetric, they attempt to maintain the volume of the shot.


Volume of brew water, not the volume of the "shot" inc. crema against a mark on a glass.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

This thread will be the new home of post discussion on use of single baskets and razor tool. Member has suggested that the thread 'my Sage has arrived' has developed a sub thread on the topic of single baskets/razor tool which would be better served via its own thread. It may take some time to sift the 'my Sage has arrived' and transfer the relevant posts across. Until this is completed, this thread will be locked.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I've used different single baskets on several different machines and I don't really like them. As others have said the Sage DB single basket seems to be better than most IMO.

Most coffee shops don't bother with singles they just use a double with a twin spouted PF and let the other half of the shot go into the drip tray rather than having to redial in the grinder.

I prefer the OCD type tool over the Sage razor thing, I couldn't get on with it.

As the Sage BE single basket is narrower and relatively deeper compared to the Sage DB 58mm single basket I think there is less margin for error with the Sage DB. So any errors in basket / shot prep will show up more on the Sage DB.

Just my 2ps worth.


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