# PID blew up... Help?



## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

All,

Got sent a free pid a few weeks ago, installed it but wasn't working correctly (as per the senders advice), thus why it was free.

Ordered a couple of replacements SSRs and a pid - figured there isn't much else it could be...

Installed new pid yesterday, flicked the power switch and... Bang. PID is dead, fuse in plug gone and had to flick electrics in the house back on.

Below is pics of how I had it wired, I deduced this using an online rex c100 instructions, some old auberins instructions and just comparing wiring for this pid and the old one (mypin ta4 - which did turn on, just didn't work correctly.

Can anyone see anything glaringly wrong?

I should have just bought a Mr shades kit, but now I've already bought some SSRs, a (dead) pid and cabling etc. I feel invested... But we'll see.

PID:

T1 - piggyback middle pin of on/off switch.

T2 - piggy back neutral pin at back of machine where cable plugs in.

T3 - earth, I hadn't set this up.

T4 - piggyback bottom pin of on/off switch.

T5 - connected to t4 of ssr-40 aa

T6 - red wire coming from pt100

T7 - white wire coming from pt100

T8 - second red wire coming from pt100

T9 - connected to t4 of ssr-40 da

T10 - connected to t3 of ssr-40 da

Ssr-40 aa

T1 - piggyback bottom pin of brew switch

T2 - piggyback top pin of steam switch

T3 - in place of the white cable on middle of steam switch

T4 - connected to T5 of PID.

SSR-40 da

T1 - connected to T1 of ssr-40 aa

T2 - connected to T2 of ssr-40 aa

T3 - connected to T10 of PID

T4 - connected to T9 of PID

Sorry for long post, hopefully someone can help so I can try and save my investment 

Thanks,

Harry


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## MartinB (May 8, 2011)

Why two SSR's?

edit: I presume one for steam, one for water?


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## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

One for brew temp (da) and one connected to the alarm output to control steam temp (aa) .


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Is there a fault on the machine ? Do any wires show signs of burns ? Have you shorted something down to earth ?

Blowing fuse and tripping house electrics sounds like earth fault ??


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Haven't looked at all of the wiring but surely connecting a 230v ac supply to a terminals 1 and 2 (with a warning that it should be DC12V) can't be a good thing.


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## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

Wow I'm an idiot... You're completely right.

I just rewired the old PID which did turn on (but didn't function correctly) and it done the same thing, fuse gone, house electrics tripped.

Taking everything out the machine works as normal...

Guess I need to order a new pid which takes the right input!!! But also work out where else I've gone wrong.


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## MartinB (May 8, 2011)

I think you should start again and just get either steam or water working properly first. Then add the secondary SSR once your first principles are working.


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## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

Yep seems like a good plan to me.

Anyone know if this is like to have fried the pt100 sensor?


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

haz_pro said:


> Yep seems like a good plan to me.
> 
> Anyone know if this is like to have fried the pt100 sensor?


No, it shouldn't have.

Also - don't always trust the white labels on the side of the PID controller. There are also numbers moulded into the black plastic of the terminals, and I always go by these numbers rather than the white labels (as it's possible to remove the controller from the housing, and refit it 180 degrees out - so the white label numbers are totally wrong. I've even had new PIDs like this).


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## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

Cheers for heads up


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## arash (Sep 19, 2017)

And don't buy cheap SSR's off ebay, they are hit and miss. Find a reputable source. I have seen them melt even with heatsinks.


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## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

This post has made my mind up.

When I sell the Classic (I've been getting hints, and have not used it since returning to work- had surgery 12m ago), I'll be removing the PID. It's from a trustworthy source and I'm confident I followed the instructions, plus it's not given me an electric shock / blown the RCD out. Despite all those reassuring things, I still don't want to have to prove (esp in a court of law for a criminal case) that it was safe when sold. I guess it's extremely unlikely but not impossible for a wire to come loose after a bit of rough handling by a courier, that wire to touch the metal body of the classic....

It then becomes the new owner's decision whether to fit the PID, and that person's responsibility.


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## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

Sorry to have put you off. It's pretty clear that I completely messed up from the offset (ordering the wrong pid!!).

Still, I can't argue with your logic... Makes sense.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

AndyDClements said:


> This post has made my mind up.
> 
> When I sell the Classic (I've been getting hints, and have not used it since returning to work- had surgery 12m ago), I'll be removing the PID. It's from a trustworthy source and I'm confident I followed the instructions, plus it's not given me an electric shock / blown the RCD out. Despite all those reassuring things, I still don't want to have to prove (esp in a court of law for a criminal case) that it was safe when sold. I guess it's extremely unlikely but not impossible for a wire to come loose after a bit of rough handling by a courier, that wire to touch the metal body of the classic....
> 
> It then becomes the new owner's decision whether to fit the PID, and that person's responsibility.


If you strip the PID out you can always sell it on separately. I'm certain I'm not the only one who may be interested.


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## AndyZap (Dec 29, 2016)

A couple of thought: Do not proceed with the full PID install (esp if it is not from a good supplier), try it first only with the temp sensor and the power attached. Keep your face/hands away from the PID when switching on the power (just in case). With only the RT100 connected you can go through the complete PID setup menu, to check that it has all the menu settings as expected. The PID should show the correct room temperature.

Next connect the DA SSR (brew SSR). You shall see the green LED on, this means that SSR receives the voltage from the PID. I would also recommend getting a cheap multimeter to measure AC/DC voltage, this helps if something goes wrong.


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## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

Cheers dude that's really helpful. Will grab a multimeter too!


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## arash (Sep 19, 2017)

With regard to a cable coming loose during rough handling and transit, as long as the metal body is earthen (rudimentary check can be done on resistance setting on a multimeter) it will just trip the rcd if there is one fitted. Proper test would involve 1000v through the conductors to make sure nothing is shorting out.


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## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

Last night I followed some of the advice in this thread and started installing the new pid.

I've tested it at a few stages: just pid power and pt100 > connecting brew ssr to pid > connecting brew ssr to machine circuit.

So far so good, I've now connected the steam ssr to the existing ssr and just need to add a few final connections for the steam ssr tonight.

A question for anyone that knows:

1. There are a number of output types for the pid, does anyone know which should be used please? (see attached photo)

The end is in sight after months of no espresso!


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## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

Having done more research, it seems that I'm after setting 2 - which is in fact the default setting.

The reason I asked is that the SSR was powering on and off every few seconds during heat up from cold. In setting 3 is didn't but then the auto-tune didn't want to work...

More fiddling to be had this evening.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Usually the type of sensor needs to be set on these some where in the menu. If supplied with a PT100 it's probably the default setting.








Then you decide if you should run auto tune while a shot is being run or with the machine doing nothing other than keeping the water hot.

I have a machine that I hope to add temperature control. It uses 2 very small boilers which means that I will ideally need to sense the actual water temperature and not the boiler casing as there wouls be too much thermal response lag.

I've been using an ebay scr / triac for some years without any problem. The reason people often have problems with electronic power devices is their rating. The headline figure usually assumes it's mounted on an infinite heat sink. Sometimes things like triacs may have a free air rating without a heatsink however that can be at 25C ambient and the device will reach it's maximum temperature so if the ambient happens to be higher than that the rating needs to be reduced. Data sheets usually give thermal resistances in C / watt. One will be junction to case. Heatsinks also have the same style of ratings so the 2 can be added together and temperature rise calculate via assuming that the voltage drop across the device never exceeds the maximum stated in it's data sheet. This is the advantage of using an electronics parts supplier - it should be easy to obtain a data sheet for the part. An alternative is to suck it and see and measure the temperature rise in use.

One thing I would most certainly do for this sort of control is make sure that it's a zero crossing in device. These and the other style are often listed as electronic relays on ebay but look the same or similar to the devices shown. Maybe the controller detects zero crossing but I believe that that would be unusual. Not totally sure in other words. There is also another area on these devices - snubbing. Rapid rising voltage steps can turn them on. Data sheets usually mention a dv/dt and that can be limited by placing a capacitor and resistor in series across the device. Some devices have far higher limits than others. It's *probably* not worth worrying too much about this area on an espresso machine.

John

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## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

Thanks for the response John - it didn't come with the pt100 but I have no programmed it in correctly. 

Happy to say the fitting of the pid is finally complete.

I haven't played properly with setting up the pid itself yet, just messed around with the sv and al/ah settings to make sure they worked for brew and steam.

One thing I did notice is that when heating up from cold to the sv setting (e.g 100), rather than powering on full it flickered on and off. If I change the output (above message) to 3 rather than 2, it doesn't do this.

Hoping that the auto tune will sort this out at the weekend, otherwise getting up to temperature is going to take a loooooong time.

Thanks all for your help.


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## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

This may be of no interest to anyone, but going to reply again any way.

Safe to say I've been blown away by the difference the pid has made. I'm still trying to get the temperature right (going to try the thermometer in a poly cup trick), but the steaming power now is absolutely amazing compared to what I'm used to.

So worth it.


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