# Espresso newbie



## Callum

Hi there,

Just signed up.

I'd been looking at getting a Bean to cup machine for a few years and last week purchased a delonghi from Amazon. To cut a long story short, machine was faulty out the box so returned and decided to go down the manual espresso route.

Today was my first time pulling an espresso shot and think I'm definitely going to enjoy this. Tasted pretty decent for a first attempt also.

I can see myself having loads of questions so signed up here as obsessive googling was beginning to give me a headache lol.

So far I've purchased a Gaggia Classic, sage smart grinder, decent tamper and milk jug etc.

In the post I have a Rancilio Silvia wand and unpressurised double basket which should hopefully receive tomorrow .

Remember I'm totally new to this so any recommendations for anything else or tips are appreciated.

I'm totally lost on which beans to buy. I picked up some on Amazon to get me started straight away (rave coffee I think) but guessing they wouldn't be considered fresh.

There's so many places online to choose from and find myself bouncing back and forward between them. A recommendation would be much appreciated.

Callum


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## Mrboots2u

Hi Callum welcome to the forum

What taste would you like to try , chocolate , fruity, nutty , ?

Where have you had coffee that you like before and what did it taste of ?

How will you be drinking the espresso neat? Americano? Latte ?


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## hotmetal

Welcome. Another Callum, this might get confusing!

If you've ordered Rave coffee you won't be far off. Some say it's slightly fresher if you get it direct from Rave but they do put a roasting date on the bottom of the bag so you should at least know how old it is. Rave coffee is well respected and I believe even when bought via Amazon it's still fresh. You want it to be a week after roasting anyway.


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## Callum

> What taste would you like to try , chocolate , fruity, nutty , ?


Im partial to something a little nutty although fruity does sound intriguing.



> Where have you had coffee that you like before and what did it taste of ?


Ill be honest, untill recently coffee for me had been 3 cups a day out a Tassimo machine. Id never tried a real espresso untill visiting Italy earlier in the year where I found myself really appreciating the different tastes. Needless to say on return home the tassimo just didnt cut it anymore. I find it hard to describe taste but think thats due to my inexperience.



> How will you be drinking the espresso neat? Americano? Latte ?


Ill be drinking neat with the odd cappuccino made for my other half.


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## Callum

I am enjoying the Rave coffee, did not realise it was so highly regarded or that you could order direct.

Its the signature blend.

Im still using the Gaggia pressurised basket, does the unpressurised basket make a great difference in terms of taste?

Im trying to vary grind and tamp slightly each time to and get an idea of how it effects taste but feel I may be wasting my time untill new basket arrives.

Is it correct to use only the double basket?


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## ronsil

Hi Callum & welcome to the Forum

Best get rid of the supplied basket & the little plastic plug.

Double baskets are the way to go. Much easier than a single.

The Silvia Wand will make a very big difference to your steaming.


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## hotmetal

Yeah you did well if you picked Rave Sig totally at random! Once you have a non-pressurised basket you have to get your grind and tamp right to get the shot timing (very simplified statement! ) The thing with the standard pressurised basket is that it's designed to allow you to get 'crema' using supermarket pre-ground stale floor sweepings. As a result it masks what you are doing with grind and tamp. A non pressurised basket masks nothing (even more so with a naked portafilter) so it forces you to work on grind and tamp. Only then can you really tell what is going on.

Because a non pressurised basket works based on the restriction caused by dose/grind level/tamp, it is generally easier to get this right in a double basket. Single baskets require a bit more skill and care with preparation. Also, if you're making espresso at 1:2 ratio or less, 18g gives you roughly 28-36g drink. A single results in an impossibly small glass. So a lot of people on here will only use the double basket anyway.


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## gingerneil

I've had a quick look on Amazon and at the Rave website as I'm in the same boat. The Rwanda Red Bourbon sounds lovely. It looks like rave sell via Amazon themselves so I can't see any difference ordered via Amazon or direct. I buy loads on Amazon, so that just makes it easy for me.


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## urbanbumpkin

I really liked the Rwanda red but I think you'll get fresher beans from Rave direct.

I seem to remember that there was a post about the amazon stuff being a month old.


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## gingerneil

Hmm. I suppose I can't argue with experience, but it's down on Amazon as being sold and despatched by Rave themselves. I wonder if they push their old stock out via Amazon as they expect the those who want the very best to go direct?

You lot have got me looking at their subscriptions now!


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## Mrboots2u

Don't buy of amazon from coffee

It's roasted fresh and stored on shelf for next day despatch for prime customers . I would doubt rave " push old coffee " to anyone

Rave won't control how this is sold, amazon will sell it based on a best before date not a roast date and freshness

You've been warned ......


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## Callum

If it helps I just checked bag of rave sig ordered from Amazon.

Roasted on 12 august.

I ordered them 21st and received 22nd.

Ordered direct from Amazon as have Prime.


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## Mrboots2u

Callum said:


> If it helps I just checked bag of rave sig ordered from Amazon.
> 
> Roasted on 12 august.
> 
> I ordered them 21st and received 22nd.
> 
> Ordered direct from Amazon as have Prime.


This isn't always the case , if you order from rave it will be fresh roasted gaurenteed

People have previously ordered from amazon and got coffee 2-4 weeks past roast date ( but before best before date )

Why take the risk , order 2nd class post , get it rested to your door .

Up to you guys ...

Plus Rave pay tax

Rave get more £ from direct sale ( as they should )

The above two reason are good reasons alone


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## Callum

Mrboots2u said:


> This isn't always the case , if you order from rave it will be fresh roasted gaurenteed
> 
> People have previously ordered from amazon and got coffee 2-4 weeks past roast date ( but before best before date )
> 
> Why take the risk , order 2nd class post , get it rested to your door .
> 
> Up to you guys ...
> 
> Plus Rave pay tax
> 
> Rave get more £ from direct sale ( as they should )
> 
> The above two reason are good reasons alone


I totally agree with you.

When I ordered It was originally for a bean to cup machine and wasn't too fussed about freshness or perhaps was a bit ignorant of its importance. I pretty much wanted beans to arrive with machine and they had best reviews.

They were definitely dispatched by Amazon directly and not Rave as arrived in box with other stuff so there is definitely a possibility of being sent a pack which has been lying around a while.

I suppose I got lucky, but like you say, why take the risk. Will be ordering direct next time.


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## Callum

So I received Silvia wand few days ago and what a difference it makes, money well spent!

Also received non pressurised basket. I was expecting an ordeal to pull an OK shot but after changing grind and tamping harder I'm very pleased with results.

I've been reading about the OPV mod. Is this something I should think about doing at this stage? Does it really make a difference?

It wouldn't be a hassle as have all parts needed and work on pressurised systems for a living.


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## Ragley

How are you finding the Sage grinder?

Are you using it only for espresso?


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## gingerneil

Quick update... I bought some Rave Italian Job from amazon (1kg). They arrived yesterday with a roasting date of 20th August.


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## ajh101

Ragley said:


> How are you finding the Sage grinder?
> 
> Are you using it only for espresso?


Try buying direct. The beans you get would be much fresher


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## Mrboots2u

gingerneil said:


> Quick update... I bought some Rave Italian Job from amazon (1kg). They arrived yesterday with a roasting date of 20th August.


Yep.

Not raves doing . rave sell direct fresh roasted. Amazon don't.

Rave don't control this practise as Amazon aren't breaking any law as the beans will have a best before or use by date on them

Amazon keep beans on the shelf for prime customers to despatch same day.

This is on the rave beans thread countless times.

Buy direct - get fresh roasted from rave

Rave get more cash and also pay their taxes...

22nd isn't so bad. If for espresso they are pre rested


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## Callum

Ragley said:


> How are you finding the Sage grinder?
> 
> Are you using it only for espresso?


Yes, espresso only for now.

Im getting on ok with it. Ive no experience with any other grinders so cant really compare it to anything.

Ive just really been playing with different grind settings and seeing how it affects end result.

I think this model may need shimmed. After receiving unpressurised basket ive had to drop grind to minimum and feel its still not quite there.


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## Callum

Ok having trouble with sour shots.

Appreciate any pointers.

Ive not changed anything but shots have been very sour over last 2 days. Ive tried adjusting grind, tamping at different pressures but still sour.

Having never had a sour shot on pressurised basket I reverted back to that and shots are same with that.

Could it be the beans? They were roasted on 12 august.


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## jeebsy

Dose in? Output? Time?


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## Callum

14g in, 30-40g out, 25s


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## coffeechap

Your grind is too course, you should be aiming for around 25 grams out in 27 seconds, your shots are way under extracted which will account for the sour taste


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## Callum

coffeechap said:


> Your grind is too course, you should be aiming for around 25 grams out in 27 seconds, your shots are way under extracted which will account for the sour taste


Ill try get it closer to 25g in 27s. thanks.

Just confused as I had been getting ok shots up until now.


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## Callum

Ok at minimum grind on sage the best i can get is 14g in, 30-40g out in 25s.

Problem with my tamping or should I consider returning the sage grinder.


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## jeebsy

How new is it?


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## Callum

jeebsy said:


> How new is it?


Ive had it week, purchased new from amazon. Manufacturing date is 1350. Guessing thats week 50 2013.


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## jeebsy

Is this with the Rave beans?

Someone might be able to tell you how to work out if your machine is one of the pre-shimmed ones, that would make a difference to how fine it would go.


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## coffeechap

You need to shim the grinder


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## Callum

jeebsy said:


> Is this with the Rave beans?
> 
> Someone might be able to tell you how to work out if your machine is one of the pre-shimmed ones, that would make a difference to how fine it would go.


Yes thats with the rave beans.

Think your right, I need to find out if this is pre shimmed.

It came with a card in box giving instructions for service personel on how to install shims, found this quite strange.


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## Callum

coffeechap said:


> You need to shim the grinder


Im guessing the shims arent included in box? Ill take another look tomorow then call Sage.


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## Charliej

It's really easy to find out if it's has been shimmed, just remove the upper burr as per instructions and then undo the nut on the lower burr again as per instructions if it's been shimmed there will be some washers underneath the burr but above the sweeper arms.


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## Callum

Had a look under lower burr.

There is one small washer on stepped shaft. Im guessing around 0.3mm although have no calipers at home to confirm.

Spoke to Sage who have sent out a shim kit which I should receive friday. They were very helpfull actually.


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## Callum

After cleaning out the grinder I managed to get 22g out in 27s with a firm tamp. Still tasted horribly sour.

Tried pressurised basket with courser grind as had been doing previously with acceptable results, again sour and undrinkable.

Opened up a new bag of beans which had been roasted 4 days ago, 24g out in 28s and again really sour.

Suppose Ill just need to wait on shims but have a feeling its not going to solve this. All the methods which previously gave me acceptable results are now giving thin sour shots.

Im wondering if its worth me bringing my multimeter home from work and checking temperatures.


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## Obnic

Where are you based Callum? If your SW London way I can lend you a Mignon to try side by side with your smart grinder.

Sour sounds like under extracted: pour too fast because grind or distribution naff or very low temperature. If it's the latter, the Mignon will suffer the same sour pour. If it's a distribution problem, a naked portafilter is the best diagnostic tool (see ebay). If it's grind though, the Mignon will highlight this for you.


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## Callum

Obnic said:


> Where are you based Callum? If your SW London way I can lend you a Mignon to try side by side with your smart grinder.
> 
> Sour sounds like under extracted: pour too fast because grind or distribution naff or very low temperature. If it's the latter, the Mignon will suffer the same sour pour. If it's a distribution problem, a naked portafilter is the best diagnostic tool (see ebay). If it's grind though, the Mignon will highlight this for you.


Up in Scotland but thanks for offer.

Hmmm, ive been looking at naked portafilters, may order one.

I have no doubt that the grinder is an issue, at minimum grind I would expect it to choke the Gaggia but it does not. Hopefully an extra shim will improve this.

Whats throwing me is the fact that for a week I had been having a double shot twice a day which I personally found enjoyable then all of a sudden shots turned sour. I made no variations to prep in this time.

Really is frustrating when things dont go your way lol.


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## jeebsy

Where in Scotland are you?


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## Callum

jeebsy said:


> Where in Scotland are you?


Kilmarnock.

Seem to be getting somewhere today.

Opened up a new bag of Rave Italian job, left grinder at minimum and tamped as usual.

18g out 27s. Shot was bitter but not sour! At least now I have a starting point at the opposite end to work from.

Took grinder back a few notches and next shot was pretty good, definitely enjoyable again.

Shims should arrive tomorrow and will try other beans again.


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## Callum

So the shims made a massive difference.

My tamping has improved and is fairly consistent and I'm starting to get the hang of adjusting grind depending on output weight of shot.

The one thing which I feel was holding me back was temperature surfing the classic.

I ordered up an Auber PID kit on Monday which arrived today, what a service!


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## Callum

The smart grinder passed away last Friday so purchased a Mignon.

Also purchased 18g Vst basket and 58.3mm tamper.

With the combination of these new items my shots are unbelievable. I'm getting all the flavours on the tasting notes which I normally struggle with.

I dialled the grinder in with a 250g bag which was previously not to my taste. At the end of the bag when I eventually got the extraction correct the flavours were superb, so good I'll be buying another bag.

What do you think has made such a vast improvement in flavour? The mignon or Vst?

Id love to know but don't want to mess with my grind settings just yet to try normal basket.


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## Firochromis

I'm a newbie also, take my words with a grain of salt. Obviously this is a result of many good things but I think lion share belongs to the grinder.


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## Mrboots2u

Callum , the grinder is key but the other parts wil, have had effect also

better grinders give , by this mean grind consistency , potential better favour clarity

Vst baskets if prepped well will lead to better extraction yields ( their whole and shape design )

The prep of the above is being improved by a good fitting tamper in a ab tater basket also ..

A good grinder would be useless with bad prep and an ill fitting tamper ( improves channeling ) . Perhaps you've also got more consistent whilst dialling that bag in...


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