# I feel like I know nothing again.



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I have bought a Feldgrind and a ROK press and although it technically isn't Espresso (Not 9Bar) however so many parameters have been shot out the window now by the 3rd wave I wonder what is considered espresso now.

Anyway I have been having a play around and am struggling somewhat, I am getting heaps of sourness through I used to be able to remedy this but it appears that with the ROK I can't get round it. Is it a temperature issue, I've tried heating up the metal and putting hotter than I would like into the top to get round this problem with little progress. I started with as fine as I could go and have let out the grind incrementally but always an element of sourness and it is frustrating. Cupping gives clean red fruit and a full body.

Using Ashbeck, Bonavita and Good beans stored well. (The bag got binned forgotten the exact bean as label got destroyed)

Any advice would be well received as I am trying to see just how good I can get out of this little setup as I am convinced that any kit can make good coffee with a bit of effort and time to understand the kits character.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sounds like temp as first glance ( probably not unexpected the way the ROK looks to work ) what the dose and weight out , as the only other way to tackle sourness is to move the other variables around ( brew ratio and grind ) .

Perhaps a better description of your process would help ( is water boiling , off boil etc ) , plus pre heating will help ..

Also , where are you ball park numbers from burr touching in the grinder ..


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Also have you read through here

http://www.rokkitchentools.com/FAQs


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

Boil Main kettle for heating purposes Bathe portafilter and using a milk pitcher pour hot water in and through group repeatedly.

Bonavita seems to have been rendered useless other than for the pour due to the temp drop although as I get quicker that hopefully will become less of an issue

beans in 18.02, 17.99 18.06 and grounds out 17.85, 17.91, 17.95

didn't weigh the water out as was apparent things were not right.

Feldgrind incidentally is perfect size for portafilter so transferring the grinds is simplicity itself just pop portafilter on top flip it over gentle taps and remove groom tamp and away you go.

That is now and will change I am sure


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I used to put about 3 loads of boiling water in it & leave it with the PF & basket in and arms about halfway up to hold the water there, until it was hot. Then add coffee (10-14g) after putting an Aeropress filter in the basket & using tamper to line it, fill to about a cm from the top with boiling water (it's cooling all the time), lift arms for 15 sec & press. I tended to find that longer than espresso shots (

I'd probably not use Ashbeck, there's not really any reason to use very soft water, the ROK doesn't heat the water so scale build up should be minimal & easy to address in a kettle vs a boiler.

It's still in a cupboard somewhere, let us know how you get on, I can dig it out for a sanity check if you like.


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I will get on with it and see how I fair, hadn't thought about using an aeropress filter though, what did that bring to the drink. If I can't get the drink to play ball I might ask for a sanity check but I will make sure I have tried everything before that. I am sure I will get there eventually thank you.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I think the pucks tend not to be as cohesive as typical espresso pucks, there's not really a proper shower screen & tons of headspace, I'm thinking the dose can move about a lot more than normal, so the Aeropress filter helps keep fines in the cup down & cleaner taste.


----------



## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

I have one of these and it's almost certainly temp. I would fill the fully boiled water before starting grinding prep. Also submerge the portafilter in a mug of boiled water to get that heated through. Pressure and temperature are linked in extraction so if you grind finer and pull harder you can increase extraction. Careful not to exceed the limits of the machines build though.

Hope this helps


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

Yes I'll see how hot I can get everything before starting this evening.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Curiosity got the better of me 

3 fills with hot water with PF in place & hold for a bit each time, load 14g in PF with Aeropress paper, reboil kettle (tap water) for the shot, fill to about a cm from top of water receptacle, start timer & slowly raise arms, at ~40sec press down, shot took about another 40sec.

1st shot: 14g:42g a touch sour.

2nd shot: 14g:58g, ballpark.

No crema to speak of in either case (didn't bother me), but seem to have scope to grind finer as I didn't have to push down excessively hard.

It is actually "fun"...


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

Yes I thought I'd been doing enough to keep the temperature up but I hadn't been, I really heated it up and bathed the portafilter until the last second and I got a nice shot through.

The reason I was so confused was down to thinking I had the temperature sorted as such was scratching my head, but got it sorted and was a nice coffee indeed. I think the Feldgrind is fantastic though grinding with it really is a pleasure.

This has all come about basically as SWMBO refused to let me go back to a good machine and grinder combo, so I decided to do it on a budget, even if I have had car problems which got in the way of my getting a lapav, she still wouldn't allow that once she found out why I was so frustrated by the car being out of action. I may go for a little caravel at some point but for now I am content.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I'm actually a bit stunned, preheat, fill with boiling water, raise arms slowly for 30sec, press down, 12g:61g in ~45sec., unbelievably sweet & syrupy...perhaps the nicest drink I have had from this coffee.

It's not going back in the cupboard.


----------



## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Oh no, I'm going to have to start playing with my one at this rate!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> I'm actually a bit stunned, preheat, fill with boiling water, raise arms slowly for 30sec, press down, 12g:61g in ~45sec., unbelievably sweet & syrupy...perhaps the nicest drink I have had from this coffee.
> 
> It's not going back in the cupboard.


Your drinking espresso


----------



## AMCD300 (Feb 11, 2016)

The ROK looks like a blast to use, and if it is producing shots like @MWJB suggests then I would love to give it a try... and for 129 pounds too...


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Your drinking espresso


Haha...must be all of 3.5%TDS? Roarrrr, I'm invincible....I could crush a grape...

Seriously, it took me aback though.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

AMCD300 said:


> The ROK looks like a blast to use, and if it is producing shots like @MWJB suggests then I would love to give it a try... and for 129 pounds too...


It is fun & fairly quick, but to put it in context, it has been gathering cobwebs for a few years, I never got anything like this when I used it often (but hadn't really learned how to brew) & the shots are more akin to moka pot strength. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for people chasing typical "espresso"/crema (others have reported better ability than me, on that front), but for strong brewed it's certainly delivering.


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I have now had a good run at making coffees with it and I can say it makes good coffee, temperature stability is a big issue but as I have found as I have gotten quicker it has become only a minor inconvenience. I think the comparison to Mokka pot is fair enough as cream is not there in abundance. I have used coffees with tasting notes and can say that it has brought out what it should as Espresso so the question is, is it Espresso??

My aim was to make Espresso as cheaply as possible at home and I think I have achieved that and I really like it. I will get a Caravel at some point but first I want a stove top milk steamer. I believe that this shows that you can make coffee on a budget and don't need the big machines, that said big machines are fantastic and I may even have one again at some point but for now I am content with my Feldgrind and ROK.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Rather then getting into whether, or not, it is authentic/real/the consensus at to what is "espresso" (this term applies to many perceptions, that also changed as machines were developed), you (& I) seem to very much like it.  It is certainly pressure brewed, short coffee. I have had better crema in the past, with more mass market beans, but not too bothered about crema in particular.

Totally agree that it is a viable & surprisingly easy route to great budget coffee that is reflective of the tasting notes, coffee that the layman can certainly equate to "espresso".

I'm keen to see how repeatable it is.

Remember the old adage, "the solution to a problem creates another problem" ;-) At present I'm not having any insurmountable problems, within the context of my expectation.


----------



## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

MWJB said:


> Totally agree that it is a viable & surprisingly easy route to great budget coffee that is reflective of the tasting notes, coffee that the layman can certainly equate to "espresso".


I don't mean to be pedantic but i'm assuming the "budget" applies to the equipment used to make the coffee and not the standard of the resultant coffee?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Step21 said:


> I don't mean to be pedantic but i'm assuming the "budget" applies to the equipment used to make the coffee and not the standard of the resultant coffee?


The standard of the resulting coffee exceeds what you may typically expect from a kettle (which everyone already owns), a hand grinder, Aeropress papers, scales and a £130 espresso/coffee maker. I'm finding it easier to control than a moka pot. So for under £200 you can get drinks on par with a decent café in terms of flavour balance, just weaker.








[/url]


----------



## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Thanks. Sounds good. That's the kind of TDS i like my "espresso" at. It will be interesting to see how you find repeatability in the longer term.

The pre heating routine does sound like a bit of a faff - but it doesn't seem that unusual. A lot of cheaper lever machines (and maybe others?) seem to need various manual pre warming and cooling routines from what i can gather.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Step21 said:


> The pre heating routine does sound like a bit of a faff - but it doesn't seem that unusual. A lot of cheaper lever machines (and maybe others?) seem to need various manual pre warming and cooling routines from what i can gather.


It's not that bad & still a very good 'cold start to shot' time. If you do everything the same each time (same amount of hot water, same hold time between each heating fill), it's probably very controllable.

You can use water that's harder than would be good for a machine with a boiler too. I'm just using 300ppm-ish water from the tap.


----------

