# Trouble Dialling In - Bambino plus/Specialita



## Sean1ucc (Oct 24, 2020)

I'm stuck at an impasse in trying to dial in my first set of beans on the new setup as above. Have tried 18, 18.5 and 19g doses with ratios of 1:1.5, 1:2 and 1:2.5.

18g in the unpressurised double basket seems to be optimal from a fill perspective using the coin test. Faint outline of coin after locking in portafilter and removing.

Taste preference is in the longer ratio and after numerous shots I can now taste the difference between sour, bitter and acidity across the parameters. I don't seem to be able to get any sort of sweetness though or any of the other profiles listed. Beans (https://www.belfastcoffeeroasters.com/product-page/honduras-shg) were 7 days post roast on Thurs and stored in airscape since.

I've been timing my shots to get output in the 25-30 sec range but I'm not sure whether I should be cutting off the timer when releasing the manual button and the pump shuts off or when liquid has finished coming out of the portafilter. There is about 6g comes out after release and pump shutoff. Preinfusion time of 7 seconds.

I'm not typically an espresso drinker so wondering if I'm just not going to be able to taste what I am expecting.

I've watched hours of videos in search of where I am going wrong! Any tips very welcome


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Make a drink you enjoy ( doesn't have to be espresso ) if that is a milk drink , how does it taste as a milk drink

Your dose is to 0.1g not 1g resolution ?

Stick to a dose now , and use that , doing be afraid to go to 1:3 or even 1:4

Coffee may still be a little fresh to be honest .

See the sticky here

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55351-resting-coffee-why-and-how-long/?do=embed


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## Sean1ucc (Oct 24, 2020)

Thanks - yes, scales is .1g resolution even though it seems to be a bit laggy on readings. With the basket and these beans I'm not sure there is much room for additional dosing without overfilling.

I've been moving in relatively large increments trying to find a good point to begin fine tuning from but haven't found that spot yet.

With that output should the time I'm aiming for still be in the 25-30 sec range? Any opinion and when timer should be stopped based based on previous question above please?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sean1ucc said:


> Thanks - yes, scales is .1g resolution even though it seems to be a bit laggy on readings. With the basket and these beans I'm not sure there is much room for additional dosing without overfilling.
> 
> I've been moving in relatively large increments trying to find a good point to begin fine tuning from but haven't found that spot yet.
> 
> With that output should the time I'm aiming for still be in the 25-30 sec range? Any opinion and when timer should be stopped based based on previous question above please?


 `stop the shot based on the scales , time is not the thing that is driving taste , so shots can be tasty between 20 and 50 seconds depending on personal preference .

People get hooked in a narrow time frame to achieve a shot and thre is no magic in that 5 second window .

Your grinder will retain about 4 g each time so are you taking this into account when you changing grind size


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## Sean1ucc (Oct 24, 2020)

OK, I will turn my focus towards output and worry less about timing which I had indeed become hooked on!

I have been flushing the grinder out between grind changes either by blowing out or running a couple of grams through. I am going to set it up for single dosing once 3D printed parts arrive.


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

Personally I don't get too caught up with tasting notes. I use them as a rough guide of what to expect from the coffee. As long as the coffee tastes good I don't care if I can taste notes of strawberry cheesecake or not! Though don't get me wrong it's nice when you can taste the notes.

I agree with Mrboots on time... the ratio is more important.

Also the roast level of the coffee will probably affect the time that you'll be aiming for. As a rough guide I aim for 25secs for dark, 30secs for medium and 35secs for a light roast. A lot of speciality coffee is roasted towards the lighter end of the spectrum.

Also that dose seems a bit high for the Bambino. When I was using a Duo Temp Pro, which has the same size portafilter, I was dosing more like 15-17g. I would try a lower dose and see if that helps.


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## Sean1ucc (Oct 24, 2020)

MarkHB said:


> I agree with Mrboots on time... the ratio is more important.
> 
> Also that dose seems a bit high for the Bambino. When I was using a Duo Temp Pro, which has the same size portafilter, I was dosing more like 15-17g. I would try a lower dose and see if that helps.


 17-19g dose seems to be the standard for the single walled double basket for the BE, BP etc which is why I had started in the middle and worked around it.

I tried 3 ratios this morning for a side by side comparison, 1:2, 1:2.5 and 1:3, will try and go higher with another batch later. I did find at 2.5 upwards that the shot flows quite fast towards the end and as a result when releasing the manual button the machine lets out a gush. 6-9g of additional output which makes it difficult to get the desired output. Not sure if this a thing with the sage machines as I've seen with other machines in videos that only a few drops come out after manual stop.

Once I have reached a good ratio what are the next parameters that should be tweaked? Should there be a rough time to assess against or how best to check that grind size is good?


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

Sean1ucc said:


> Once I have reached a good ratio what are the next parameters that should be tweaked? Should there be a rough time to assess against or how best to check that grind size is good?


 Take a look at the following James Hoffman videos. He should be able to help far better than I could!

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxz0FjZMVOl3MuAzK5l3gjakoOGrmK8fP


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## Sean1ucc (Oct 24, 2020)

Thanks for the link! I watched that series over the weekend as well some more of his videos and they were very informative but a lot of information to take in. Frustrating to watch him dial in new beans, machine and grinder in 3 or less attempts 😅

I just received my bottomless portafilter and look to be getting an even extraction with no spurting. It has also helped with overrun after the pump has kicked off meaning there's less guesswork. Ordered a Timemore also to replace the cheap scales as they are very delayed in readings.


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

Eventually it'll all click into place! It took me over a year to really start to get good consistent results. I'm a slow learner though!


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## Sean1ucc (Oct 24, 2020)

I have been making some progress and added some modifications as I could not resist it. The more you read, the more you need!

Single dosing with specialita now and added an IMS shower screen.

I can't seem to get an even extraction as it seems to start in a ring around the edge and take a while to fill in to the centre with some spurting along the way. Here's some pictures of the prep and video of the extraction. What do I need to improve to get it more even please?

Steps are, grind in to glass and transfer to portafilter, WDT in the basket. Tap on work surface to level.









Level with distribution tool









Tamp









Extraction video






Puck after extraction


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## Sean1ucc (Oct 24, 2020)

Bottom of puck and the bits left behind

















The M5 screw sits proud of the shower screen but not sure of this an issue or how to fix.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Your camera fell over, we could only see the view up to the PF 

What were your brew parameters (grind, dose, output, time)?


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## Sean1ucc (Oct 24, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Your camera fell over, we could only see the view up to the PF 🙂


 That's what I was trying to show, just the bottom of the portafilter - what else should I try and get in the shot for better info?

Running 18g dose (Rave fudge blend) and got 38g out in ~30s going by the video. I'm waiting on my black mirror scales with timer as usually use my phone but I was recording!


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## idekov (Aug 21, 2019)

I am using the Bambino now for more than an year with Eureka Mignon ... for the last two months using bottomless PF every morning for my latte. If that will make you feel better your video as flow is not that bad and comparable to what I usually get out of the Bambino. I personally managed to get consistent good results and taste only when the basket is leveled off after grinding (as dose) that depending on the coffee in my case is between 20g-21g (measured before grinding-single dosing). The puck afterwards is not wet and comes out nicely, uniform and dry. Of course as noted here on the forum the dose is at the high end for this basket and you can see the shower screen print on the puck, which means not enough place for the coffee to expand. However that works for me and the taste is OK. I don't believe that investing further (money) in this entry level machine (or appliance) will make dramatic difference in taste.

Now looking at the pictures, I would suggest to try to increase the dose a bit and see if you get any improvement. And also be patient don't change more than one parameter at a time. It will take you maybe months, but you will find what works best for you. And of course its all about the taste. I have posted in the Videos section my journey...if you want to compare.

Good luck and be safe...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sean1ucc said:


> That's what I was trying to show, just the bottom of the portafilter - what else should I try and get in the shot for better info?
> 
> Running 18g dose (Rave fudge blend) and got 38g out in ~30s going by the video. I'm waiting on my black mirror scales with timer as usually use my phone but I was recording!


 OK, so what was the grind setting & how did it taste?


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

I don't have any experience with bottomless portafilters so I don't know if this will help you get less mess, but I would grind a little finer. From the video I would say your extraction time was about 24secs going by the sound of the pump. Though if you're happy with the flavour as it is you probably won't want to go finer.


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## Sean1ucc (Oct 24, 2020)

MWJB said:


> OK, so what was the grind setting & how did it taste?


 I had taken the the dial back to the point where the burrs touch, spinning manually with the power off, and brought it back to roughly 1.5 on the dial which is where output is completed in the regions of 30s.

Its tasting OK at this stage, on the bitter side I would say but fine with milk.

I'm trying to see if getting a more even extraction with regards to technique will improve it and then fine tune with grind size.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sean1ucc said:


> I had taken the the dial back to the point where the burrs touch, spinning manually with the power off, and brought it back to roughly 1.5 on the dial which is where output is completed in the regions of 30s.
> 
> Its tasting OK at this stage, on the bitter side I would say but fine with milk.
> 
> I'm trying to see if getting a more even extraction with regards to technique will improve it and then fine tune with grind size.


 What did the same output taste like at 35 & 40s? I'm not sure why 30s is a target. Grind setting at 38g out and best flavour is the target.

To know where you should go next, we need to know what the incremental changes caused in terms of your preference to get where you are now.

Why do you think your extractions are uneven?


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## Sean1ucc (Oct 24, 2020)

MWJB said:


> What did the same output taste like at 35 & 40s? I'm not sure why 30s is a target. Grind setting at 38g out and best flavour is the target.
> 
> To know where you should go next, we need to know what the incremental changes caused in terms of your preference to get where you are now.
> 
> Why do you think your extractions are uneven?


 I guess I just thought that the spurting was from channeling in the puck and then when the flow starts it comes out only at the sides and seems to struggle to reach the centre.

With timing I maybe understood incorrectly that 30s for 2:1 was the starting ballpark point to get to and then adjust from there. I've been trying different beans in 250g sizes and resorting back to this as starting point before playing with output etc.

The finer grind setting before the current one took ~45s and was not nice even added to milk. Strong bitterness coming through.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sean1ucc said:


> I guess I just thought that the spurting was from channeling in the puck and then when the flow starts it comes out only at the sides and seems to struggle to reach the centre.
> 
> With timing I maybe understood incorrectly that 30s for 2:1 was the starting ballpark point to get to and then adjust from there.
> 
> The finer grind setting before the current one took ~45s and was not nice even added to milk. Strong bitterness coming through.


 OK, so go coarser & see if you can lose the bitterness.

Coffee can't keep time as accurately as that  Focus on the grind setting vs taste & look more for the end point (where the cup tastes good, & adjustments finer, or coarser derail that), any point can be a start point. You have started fine & headed coarser, you could easily have started coarse & headed finer, the end point would be the same wherever you started.


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## Sean1ucc (Oct 24, 2020)

MWJB said:


> OK, so go coarser & see if you can lose the bitterness.
> 
> Coffee can't keep time as accurately as that 🙂 Focus on the grind setting vs taste & look more for the end point (where the cup tastes good, & adjustments finer, or coarser derail that), any point can be a start point. You have started fine & headed coarser, you could easily have started coarse & headed finer, the end point would be the same wherever you started.


 I've been chasing a better extraction in light of 'The Espresso Compass' diagram which indicates better extraction. If what I have now is acceptable in respect of ruling out a variable per se I can just focus on tweaking grind settings.

I've got an IMS 14/16g competition basket so I'll see of that makes any differences!

Thanks for the help


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sean1ucc said:


> I've been chasing a better extraction in light of 'The Espresso Compass' diagram which indicates better extraction. If what I have now is acceptable in respect of ruling out a variable per se I can just focus on tweaking grind settings


 You're brewing at 18:38g. The only variable is grind, which has a loose knock on effect to time, but time doesn't do the work (grind does) & is not an input/variable. It is an output.

The taste indicates best extraction. If this is what you are getting, I wouldn't suddenly swap out to a smaller basket.


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## 08390754 (Dec 6, 2020)

Hello, I'm by no means an expert but I have the Bambino also and it's only recently I've been getting consistently tasty espresso. Two thoughts:

I was advised to use less coffee in the puck, and normally dose between 14 - 15. I know this is different to previous advice but it improved the taste for me.

When did you start your timer? You mentioned 7 seconds pre-infusion. I was told before that pre infusion counts less towards your overall time. Some people suggest start timing when coffee starts to flow. We start when first pump kicks in and we keep this for about 3 seconds until letting full pressure come in. If you're including pre-infusion in time, your shots may be a bit quick, so maybe tighten the grind.

Again, I'm new like you but perhaps these are things to consider.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sean1ucc said:


> I did find at 2.5 upwards that the shot flows quite fast towards the end and as a result when releasing the manual button the machine lets out a gush. 6-9g of additional output which makes it difficult to get the desired output. Not sure if this a thing with the sage machines as I've seen with other machines in videos that only a few drops come out after manual stop.
> 
> Once I have reached a good ratio what are the next parameters that should be tweaked? Should there be a rough time to assess against or how best to check that grind size is good?


 What do you mean, "the shot flows fast in the later part"? You press the brew button, then stop it to achieve desired weight in the cup (if after you stop it, you get another 8g, stop the pump 8g earlier next time). Assuming your shot tastes good and is in a normal time frame, don't fret over tiny perceptions at small time intervals. The fats & other non-dissolved solids come out early, then as the shot progresses, you are hopefully washing 3.5g of coffee out of your PF, this will leave voids, which is normal. So you have a more watery looking output at the end, flowing through a less resistant puck.

Time is how many seconds you run the pump for, excluding any time it takes for the coffee to drip to final weight after shutting off the pump. If you time from 1st drips, you're not timing the whole process. Recording flow time is pointless, because it's not a thing.

Once ratio is broadly set, grind size dictates flavour balance. Go fine to mitigate sharp, sour notes. Go coarser to lose flat, powdery, silty notes.


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## Sean1ucc (Oct 24, 2020)

MWJB said:


> What do you mean, "the shot flows fast in the later part"? You press the brew button, then stop it to achieve desired weight in the cup (if after you stop it, you get another 8g, stop the pump 8g earlier next time). Assuming your shot tastes good and is in a normal time frame, don't fret over tiny perceptions at small time intervals. The fats & other non-dissolved solids come out early, then as the shot progresses, you are hopefully washing 3.5g of coffee out of your PF, this will leave voids, which is normal. So you have a more watery looking output at the end, flowing through a less resistant puck.
> 
> Time is how many seconds you run the pump for, excluding any time it takes for the coffee to drip to final weight after shutting off the pump. If you time from 1st drips, you're not timing the whole process. Recording flow time is pointless, because it's not a thing.
> 
> Once ratio is broadly set, grind size dictates flavour balance. Go fine to mitigate sharp, sour notes. Go coarser to lose flat, powdery, silty notes.


 Switched to IMS basket as it holds a larger dose than the stock sage basket when combined with the IMS shower screen. I dose at 20g with it as generally drink milk based coffee.

Switching to the bottomless PF resolved the large overrun as well, its 2-3g now which is easy to factor in.

Timing is from push and hold of the button to start preinfusion until second press to stop. Have been running preinfusion until first drops in the cup.

With medium dark/dark roasts I have relatively got the hang of dialling in. Switched to a light roast to try and that's been a whole different ballgame! Almost through the bag and struggled to get anything drinkable as straight espresso. With no temp control I think I may struggle with lighter roasts.


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

Sean1ucc said:


> Switched to a light roast to try and that's been a whole different ballgame! Almost through the bag and struggled to get anything drinkable as straight espresso. With no temp control I think I may struggle with lighter roasts.


 Yeah the temperature stability/control of the cheaper Sage machines can make it a bit more difficult to extract lighter roasts. I'm no light roast afficionado but a couple of things that can help is to dose less and increase your ratio. So if you've been extracting 18g-36g then you could try something like 16g-40g and see if that makes an improvement.


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## Sean1ucc (Oct 24, 2020)

MarkHB said:


> Yeah the temperature stability/control of the cheaper Sage machines can make it a bit more difficult to extract lighter roasts. I'm no light roast afficionado but a couple of things that can help is to dose less and increase your ratio. So if you've been extracting 18g-36g then you could try something like 16g-40g and see if that makes an improvement.


 I can see myself upgrading the machine in the near future and keeping the grinder setup!

OK that's great thanks. I've 4 cups worth so I will give that a shot and let you know


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## Sean1ucc (Oct 24, 2020)

MarkHB said:


> So if you've been extracting 18g-36g then you could try something like 16g-40g and see if that makes an improvement.


 What's the theory behind this please? Why would increasing the ratio with a decreased dose differ to increasing the ratio with the current dose when using a consistent ratio?

Should grind size be kept consistent when lowering dose?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

The sage thermo jet machines don't work well with light roasts.

The brew temp is directly related to flow rate so if anything flows fast you can assume it's below designed brew temp also - how much under I don't know.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

Sean1ucc said:


> What's the theory behind this please? Why would increasing the ratio with a decreased dose differ to increasing the ratio with the current dose when using a consistent ratio?
> 
> Should grind size be kept consistent when lowering dose?


 I'm not sure of the exact science behind it but I presume that it has something to do with being able to grind finer to extract the same amount of grams in the same amount of time. Or something like that. If you have a basket that's made for a lower dose then make sure you use that one.

Start watching the section at 5:45 in the following video. He talks about starting with a lower dose for lighter roasts.


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## Sean1ucc (Oct 24, 2020)

MarkHB said:


> a couple of things that can help is to dose less and increase your ratio.


 I had a new bag of light roast (Ethiopian Bishan Fugu) to try and took your approach, dosed down to 19g and took the grind a half turn finer between numbers, as last beans were medium, and ratio of 1:2.5

It may be just a fluke but it was a decent shot, never managed to get the last light roast anywhere near as good. For the second time ever I actually managed to taste some of the tasting notes described!


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