# Next step from Izzo Vivi



## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

Hi all,

Happy new year!

I need some advice on where to go next. I've been making coffee for the last 10+ years progressing from whatever I could, to Gaggia Classic to my lovely Izzo Vivi. I have a Mazzer Mini E grinder too and I buy my beans from Coffee Real. these days I only drink Decaf, but the decafs from Coffee Real are incredible so I don't miss caffeine at all now. I first discovered how good coffee and latte art could be from living in Melbourne for a few years and I guess this is what gave me my passion to always get the most out of my shots.

I've toyed with a home roaster, but I believe that I'll not reach the levels of a top roaster and as such won't get the same quality out of the bean. So I'm thinking of a new machine - something with a double boiler, PID and rotary pump, like the Alex Duetto IV, ECM Heidelberg Technika IV or at a big push the Vesuvius. My question is though; will I notice a difference to my coffee? I am really fussy, I do have a fine palate and so I am particular about the regions of beans which suit my taste.

I dabble a bit with latte art, but I'd like to be better. example below. I use semi-skimmed milk btw and drink lattes in 25cl glasses so I get a good taste from my double shots.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I would invest my money in a different grinder as opposed to a new machine ...

Machines are shiney and new

Better grinder will make more difference in the cup for your £s

Only then would i look at a different machine


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Let me qualify my post above.

If you want a new machine ( say a db ) so its easier to make coffee ( no cooling flushes for example or more steam power ) then a DB would fit the bill

If you want to give a significant difference in the cup - id still go grinder , grinder , grinder. It should give more improvement in the cup than switching to another e61 machine with a DB...you say you have a good palate ( and i have no reason to doubt you ) , then change the thing that is going to make the biggest difference to the ingredient your using ....you got it the grinder....

If you want a vesuvius ( which gives you different options re pressure profiling and is a DB ) id still want a better grinder to match it to ...


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

If you're looking for someone to bounce ideas off about an Alex Duetto IV I'd be happy to help.

Happy owner for the past 19 months


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

Many thanks for your reply MrBoots2u,

I'm curious that you say upgrade the grinder, but I'm not sure how I could upgrade a Mazzer Mini E without going to a commercial grinder that will leave me with masses of ground coffee in the hopper? I would have thought I have the best I can get for the home?

To confirm, you are saying there is no point in upgrading the coffee machine?

kind regards,

Andrew


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

Yes please Glenn,

I've never used an Alex before. I like the idea of the quieter running, but does the PID temp control and the different pump make it more consistent with the shots?

kind regards,

Andrew


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Consistency is one thing that this machine is good at

Where are you based?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

andshill7 said:


> Many thanks for your reply MrBoots2u,
> 
> I'm curious that you say upgrade the grinder, but I'm not sure how I could upgrade a Mazzer Mini E without going to a commercial grinder that will leave me with masses of ground coffee in the hopper? I would have thought I have the best I can get for the home?
> 
> ...


Not saying there is no point









Depend what your trying to achieve by changing machines..

There are commercial grinders you can single dose

Super jolly

K10 Doser

People have modded mazzer royal and majors to single dose.

There are small hoppers that can be fitted to others

Then there are things like a hg1 if your of a mind to hand grind.

Its your money , just consider the options open to you.

Glenn what grinders do you use at the moment?


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Mahlkonig Vario and Anfim Caimano are both on my bench

The Vario / Duetto combo works for me (and an number of others whom I have trained with the same pairing)

HG One also worked a treat (and was a workout)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

New ceados are quite compact height wise and have small hoppers too


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> New ceados are quite compact height wise and have small hoppers too


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

Glenn said:


> Consistency is one thing that this machine is good at
> 
> Where are you based?


Excellent. I'm based nr Warrington.

I've never looked at your grinder makes before. I went for the standard, but the makes you have look like excellent grinders. I'd like to see how the Alex stacks up with my Mazzer though.. or how your grinder stacks up against my Vivi









Where are you based Glenn?

All the best,

Andrew


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Sadly a lot further away than is reasonably practical to get to (Stanmore, North London) otherwise I would have been happy to let you loose on my machine


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

yes, I see what you mean on the Ceado. Are they more precise than the Mazzer Mini e? They do talk a good story.


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

Thanks for the offer anyway Glenn. I do visit London quite a lot but Stanmore is just a little too far out for even there.







Do you have any videos of the alex in operation?


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

If you're ever in Wiltshire then you can play with my Duetto any time... so to speak.


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

MrShades said:


> If you're ever in Wiltshire then you can play with my Duetto any time... so to speak.


Lol







now there's an offer.. haha. Thank you very much Mr Shades. How do you rate your Duetto? Would you replace it for anything else?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The reason the grinder is important, is the espresso machine can only make coffee from whatever you put into it. I am not being rude but looking at what is actually available grinder wise, the Mini E is hardly in the top half of the table. Put in better ingredients, you will get a better shot.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

I've got a Duetto II - that I bought from Claudette in 2009 I think. It's on a timer, and is on for most of the day - every day - and hasn't really faltered at all. It's a great machine, and I like it a lot.

Would I replace it?

Well - if I had the space (vertical space below my kitchen cupboards) then I'd consider a Vesuvius, as I quite like the idea of pressure profiling. Similarly, on the pressure profiling front, if I had the funds then I'd consider replacing it with a GS/3 MP or a Slayer.

However, none of the above are likely to happen in the near future unless I suddenly find a large pot of cash. One day Rodney....


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

dfk41 said:


> The reason the grinder is important, is the espresso machine can only make coffee from whatever you put into it. I am not being rude but looking at what is actually available grinder wise, the Mini E is hardly in the top half of the table. Put in better ingredients, you will get a better shot.


I'm with Mr Kidd - get a better grinder first, before upgrading the Vivi.... I'd think you'll be pleasantly surprised. I get great results from my Gaggia Classic when fed with coffee ground in my K10 Fresh.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

So thats three for a grinder upgrade....









Machine upgrade may make coffee bit easier and little bit more consistent to make

Grinder upgrade more tastier ( and probably cost you a lot less than a new machine if bought keenly second hand )

Have a read of this to give you an idea

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?17071-Grinders-what-do-you-get-for-your-money


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Make that 4, a grinder upgrade will give you a significant improvement in your cup, try to get some hands on and more importantly some tasting experience with some great grinders, you will be surprised in the difference over the mazzer mini e


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

Well I'll be! I really thought I couldn't improve on the grinder for my home, but clearly I haven't done my research. So my requirements are zero retention and the lower RPM. My current Mazzer Mini E is a 64 / 1400 RPM I think and it sounds like I would be looking at a much lower RPM ~ 800.. What would you all recommend? max £1200.

Many thanks for all the help.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If space is not an issue, then if buying new that will get you a Compak E8 which in my view, is a lot of bang for your buck. Brand new design replacing an already very good grinder

http://www.foundrycoffeeroasters.com/shop/coffee-brewing-equipment/compak-e8-on-demand-coffee-grinder/

buying second hand will get an even wider choice, but for some people, new is the way to go


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Or consider this for less than the Compak, same size burrs, much smaller and very quiet. It comes with a short hopper and it about the same height as your Mazzer....very good grinder indeed. I personally would recommend this over the Compak if your buying new and in that price range.

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/ceado-e37s-grinder-with-83mm-flat-burrs-short-hopper.html

For some reason it's not in the grinder section?? but is priced at £1069 inc VAT (saving £140 on the Compak).

I do think at some point you will want to upgrade the Vivi for a DB of some kind, you should get reasonable money for it used as they were nicely built and very quiet for a Vibe pump machine, at the time I reviewed them, they were the quietest prosumer Vibe pump machine around.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

I've got to agree with both of the Daves above - if it's low (not sure you'll get absolutely zero!) retention and a good upgrade from the mini-E but with the same "on demand" ease of use, then either the Compak E8 OD or Ceado E37S (make sure it's the "S" version) would be a great choice.

I like the look of the Ceado, and they look solid and well made - but I'd want the convenience of the adjustable portafilter holder on the K8 (I've got a K10 Fresh and really like using the same holder).

Both "on demand", both 83mm flat burrs, both similar speeds (one being 1400rpm and the other 1325rpm).... not much between them, but as DaveC said the Ceado is appreciably shorter/smaller.


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

Thank you very much Dave. I actually bought the Vivi based on your review funnily enough and It's been fantastic - never let me down and does make great coffee! However, we always want better, and I know there is better coffee to be had









I've read through your review of the Ceado and they do sound fantastic grinders... but this is where my lack of knowledge kicks in. Slower grinding speeds mean less heat to the coffee, so how does the E37s get by this as this is the same speed as my Mazzer Mini E?

What is the best, conical or flat? I assumed conical but your review shows that there is more coffee left in the burrs in the E10 (without the modification). I tend to make 2 x doubles or 1 x double at a time so I want the least coffee left in the grinder as possible. with my Mazzer, I have it down to an art where I know just how much beans to pour into the basket so that they all get used up. Of course I had no idea that this much coffee could be left lying around until now.

I also notice that I do exactly what you say with regards to silting. I fill up the basket to the crease to avoid this which is technically slightly overfilling. I never put that down to the grinder before, yet I couldn't understand how I couldn't make the grind any better.

It looks like it's the E10 (with modification) or the Compak F10 fresh as being my best bet? If so which one and why?

many thanks

Andrew


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

andshill7 said:


> I fill up the basket to the crease to avoid this which is technically slightly overfilling. I never put that down to the grinder before, yet I couldn't understand how I couldn't make the grind any better.


What basket are you using and how much coffee are you putting into it (in grams?)


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

I've never weighed it tbh. I just know from experience what works - tried going finer and more coarse with grind setting and settled on the best being to the crease line of the vivi portafilter basket. don't get me wrong, the coffee comes out all good - ~24 secs for caffeinated and ~20 secs for Decaf. Good crema for both and always to the fill line of my shot glasses when I test.

But, like I say, I still want better. I just know I can get a lot more out of my shots than I currently do. And if a new grinder will give me that then I'll buy one.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

andshill7 said:


> 1. I've read through your review of the Ceado and they do sound fantastic grinders... but this is where my lack of knowledge kicks in. Slower grinding speeds mean less heat to the coffee, so how does the E37s get by this as this is the same speed as my Mazzer Mini E?
> 
> 2. What is the best, conical or flat? I assumed conical but your review shows that there is more coffee left in the burrs in the E10 (without the modification). I tend to make 2 x doubles or 1 x double at a time so I want the least coffee left in the grinder as possible. with my Mazzer, I have it down to an art where I know just how much beans to pour into the basket so that they all get used up. Of course I had no idea that this much coffee could be left lying around until now.
> 
> ...


1. I've never known the burrs overheating the coffee on any decent grinder (Mazzer Mini E upward) used in a domestic setting....it's just not going to happen So don't worry about rotational speed...if there is any issue at all it's more one of static.

2. If by the E10, you mean E92, yes there is much more retention than people think in the conicals. it can be modded out, then the ceado E92 becomes the best choice for single dosin, but super expensive. The E37S is the smarter choice if you are not going to single dose. You can put a days worth of beans in the hopper and simply let it do it's thing. If you want to single dose...then the E37S is not best suited to it....due to the static reducer flap and it's positive closure pressure(the Compaks also have them). I didn't notice any taste problems caused by retention when running the Ceado E37S with beans in the hopper and simply purging 1 second or so before grinding into the PF

3. If you mean the E92 or Compak K10...I didn't use the K10, but I did briefly have a K8. I thought the adjustment mechanism (which is almost the same) was overly complicated and would not enjoy opening the burr chamber to clean the grinder..to be honest, I didn't like it much at all. My K8 also had misaligned burrs and went back to Compak, who initially wanted me to take it apart and do fault diagnosis for them. The Ceado design makes it very difficult for the burrs to be misaligned by either bad couriers or manufacture and it's super easy to open and clean.

My recommendation, get the E37S and use it with beans in the hopper....I do think the E92 is fantastic (and quite a bit smaller than the K8/K10), but so expensive. Use the £600 you save towards a machine upgrade when you have the cash.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

andshill7 said:


> I've never weighed it tbh. I just know from experience what works - tried going finer and more coarse with grind setting and settled on the best being to the crease line of the vivi portafilter basket. don't get me wrong, the coffee comes out all good - ~24 secs for caffeinated and ~20 secs for Decaf. Good crema for both and always to the fill line of my shot glasses when I test.
> 
> But, like I say, I still want better. I just know I can get a lot more out of my shots than I currently do. And if a new grinder will give me that then I'll buy one.


I used to think weighing in and out was really anal. But since I started doing this I noticed a massive improvement.

Everyone to their own path but this is what worked for me.

The other big jump (in the cup) was upgrading the grinder from a Mignon to a SJ. Not knocking the Mignon as I really rate it, but I'm in the grinder is key camp too.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The question I would ask, is in 12 months time, would you think the Ceado would have a better re sale value than the Compak. I think not. it is not a popular grinder over here, no matter how capable it may be. The K8 Dave had to review had an issue. I agree that the old worm screw style adjustment was dire and left big holes that soon retained gms of coffee, but the new E8 is a different beast. They have changed the adjustment to the Mazzer style collar. I have not seen or had a Ceado as I can only see myself losing bags of money trying to sell it on. It is the old Seat versus VW argument.


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

Thank you very much for the detailed response Dave. I did in fact mean the E92 btw









I do tend to single dose, but that's because I don't want the beans being exposed to air for longer than necessary. I will tend to go through 250gm bags every 3-4 days.

I did like the features of the Compak, but I trust your evaluation as you know a LOT more about these products than I do. I don't mind spending the extra for the E92 if it will give me a better grind. Your review seemed to suggest that, and I would ask your help to make the mod if you didn't mind? I will replace the Vivi with something like an Alex but if the grinder gives my Vivi another year then I don't mind spending the extra now. bottom line is I just want the best I can get.

On that basis, would you still go for the E37s or the E92?

All the best,

Andrew


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

Hmm, that's interesting.

I do like the K10 and this seems a good price:

http://www.coffeeclassicsdirect.co.uk/compak-k10-fresh-grinder-855-p.asp#


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Do yourself a favour and forget the K10. It has been superseded by the E10 which is a much better grinder. The K10 retains 25 gms plus, the E10, nothing like that. I have had a K10 and currently have an E10. Speaking from experience!


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

Where did you buy the E10 from? Also, is cleaning it simple as Dave was suggesting it's difficult. I do like a lot of features on this grinder though. Including being able to remove the basket with the beans still in it. Love the adjustable filter holder and the portafilter push button top up feature.

I like the fact it is slow grinding, which with my limited knowledge on grinders, seems to be the way to go for the best quality grind. I appreciate it may not be that simple, but this seems to be a common factor in the best quality grinders, including conical burrs.

kr

Andrew


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

andshill7 said:


> Where did you buy the E10 from? Also, is cleaning it simple as Dave was suggesting it's difficult. I do like a lot of features on this grinder though. Including being able to remove the basket with the beans still in it. Love the adjustable filter holder and the portafilter push button top up feature.
> 
> I like the fact it is slow grinding, which with my limited knowledge on grinders, seems to be the way to go for the best quality grind. I appreciate it may not be that simple, but this seems to be a common factor in the best quality grinders, including conical burrs.
> 
> ...


This place stock em









http://www.foundrycoffeeroasters.com/shop/coffee-brewing-equipment/compak-e10-on-demand-coffee-grinder/


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

Nice one. I've just found this one too - good price! Not sure if they are good to deal with though? I usually buy from BellaBarista but sadly they don;t stock the Compaks.

https://londiniumespresso.com/store/compak/grinders/compak-e10-conic-od


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

andshill7 said:


> Nice one. I've just found this one too - good price! Not sure if they are good to deal with though? I usually buy from BellaBarista but sadly they don;t stock the Compaks.
> 
> https://londiniumespresso.com/store/compak/grinders/compak-e10-conic-od


That price doesn't include Vat

Foundry price does .,,,


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

OK, I've read a lot about resale value, grind speed and the OP requirements....for the E92

1. Buy the right grinder and you are unlikely to be selling it again, my E92 will never be sold. resale value should not really play a part in this decision, besides, you try and find a used Ceado E92, or even an E37S for that matter

2. The Compak is huge in comparison and not as easy to clean..the Ceado is, relatively speaking, small and neat

3. The Ceado has a more powerful motor, larger burrs and a slower rotational speed at 240 RPM.. which means no static

I love the engineering of the E92 and I think it would probably be a better grinder...burrs good for 1000kg plus of coffee, you will not be changing them in your lifetime. I specifically love the rubber mounted Motor/Burrset all as one unit. I've also very good taste buds and it is exceptional in the cup. *Bella Barista don't hold stock of the Ceado E92 (I advised them not to, but they would get you one, you would have to ask them the best price they can do. *Remember you don't want the Huge Hopper, in fact you don't really want a hopper at all...which helps you on the price....but you will need to mod it for single dosing. I can tell you exactly how to mod it, the one problem thing you will have trouble finding is part of an old whittard tea infuser I used, but there are some funnels available on Amazon which would probably work fine...in fac, you may not even need the tea infuser as I think my mod would work without it...something I can try tomorrow. The Mod set costs around £8, which includes the Cadburys options chocolate drink (because you need the lid) and 6 Cocon deserts, which you can eat, because you need the 2 of the containers.

I single dose and I put in what I want out and can pretty much get it all out....when I change grind, the adjustment is seen immediately...not 2 or 3 double shots later. It's probably a little more expensive than the Compak, but if you have the money, want to buy once, then I think you might like it far far more. *If you are near me in Surrey, then you're welcome to pop round and see it in action.*

I don't work for BB and I've no vested interest..it's an expensive grinder, but I think a goodun....and believe me, I would NEVER go through the faff of single dosing if it wasn't worth it in the cup. It was another Dave (Coffeechap) who said something to me that made me decide to buy the E92...about wanting the best result you can get in the cup and putting up with the faff if something is giving you that.


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> That price doesn't include Vat
> 
> Foundry price does .,,,


Doh!! Always read the small print! :|


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

Many thanks again Dave! I totally agree. The grinder I buy will not be sold again if it delivers on amazingly ground coffee.

I'll check what price BB can do the E92 for. the only think that puts me off is having to do the modification. I'm assuming I wouldn't have to do that with the Compak E10 OD? I will always single dose so I need to factor this in.. as I don't want to leave 250gms of coffee in the hopper for 3-4 days. I also change my coffee types - this week it's Ethiopian, in a few days it will be El Salvador and I've just finished some Peru.

The other question is: Does the Compak E10 require me to go through a few doses to get the grind right each time I change? Even if I record the settings?

Also, what was the reason you advised BB not to stock the E92?

Thanks again for your continued help.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Whenever you change your coffee you will need to re calibrate your grinder as every bean is different.


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## CallumT (Aug 23, 2013)

And your will have to purge and re-introduce the new coffee also...

Any grinder will take you a while to get used to it and really know what each adjustment step really means in terms of pour time, what coffees generally require what settings. Initially wastage will be high.


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## CallumT (Aug 23, 2013)

BB will not stock the E92 because its not really viable for majority of their market, FCR requires grinders for cafes and wholesale customers ready and in stock the overlap to quality focused home users also applies hence selling in the web-shop and only stocking the best of the Flat and Conics, no point in having grinders that don't really showcase the coffees.

Also opted for the essential variant of the fresh as the fresh worm drive and electronic interface can be a little confusing to know 'where your at' so to speak.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

....added just for clarity. Our prices include VAT and fully insured courier delivery. We also stock the smaller (350g) hoppers, which we can supply instead of the usual hopper at no extra cost. We may be able to offer a small discount for a forum member too. PM me if interested and good luck, whatever you decide!


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

CallumT said:


> And your will have to purge and re-introduce the new coffee also...
> 
> Any grinder will take you a while to get used to it and really know what each adjustment step really means in terms of pour time, what coffees generally require what settings. Initially wastage will be high.


Sorry, yes, I wasn't clear. Each bean is different and right now I keep track of what each bean setting is. However, I couldn't understand the purging part if I only single/double dose. Is the retention high on both the E92 and E10?

cheers.


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

I just can't decide right now. The Caedo E92 does sound like it has the most accurate grinding and after watching the videos, it is super easy to clean - looks really well made. However, the Compak E10 looks the biz too and is packed full of really nice features. both are top grinders but if I'm to believe the hype, the E92 has the better quality grinding... or does it?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Is Wakefield far from Sheffield ? Sure the foundary boys might be able to demo one for you.

Difficult to say re grind quality , no one had each side by side to compare and its difficult to judge by eye .


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

IMHO, if the E92 is more than £10 dearer, then forget it. See how many others have Ceados conicals on the forum. None as far as I know. There is a reason for that. I am not saying the Ceado is better or worse than the Compak, but it is a lot more expensive, probably by £400. It is not that much better!


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Is Wakefield far from Sheffield ? Sure the foundary boys might be able to demo one for you.
> 
> Difficult to say re grind quality , no one had each side by side to compare and its difficult to judge by eye .


Yes, we can certainly arrange that. I couldn't honestly say which one has the better grind quality but I can honestly say that we've been really pleased with the e8 and the e10 that we now have set up at the roastery. I'm not sure there is much I'd change about the e10, if anything. The build quality and performance seem to be completely bulletproof so far. It's also worth mentioning that Callum spent an awful lot of time researching which manufacturer we wanted to stock. The only real factors were quality photo, build and design and value. The E8 and e10 came out on top for us.


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## CallumT (Aug 23, 2013)

May also be worth a read;

Unfortunately no inclusion of the Ceado unit your looking at.

https://comingsooncoffee.wordpress.com/2013/08/11/six-grinders-one-coffee-with-a-spring-lever-espresso-machine/


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

andshill7 said:


> I just can't decide right now. The Caedo E92 does sound like it has the most accurate grinding and after watching the videos, it is super easy to clean - looks really well made. However, the Compak E10 looks the biz too and is packed full of really nice features. both are top grinders but if I'm to believe the hype, the E92 has the better quality grinding... or does it?


The main difference between the two is rotational speed and *size (significant)*. The ability to single dose with modification on the E92 is very good...I don't know about the Compak...you certainly can't run with beans ion the hopper as a home use with any degree of practicality in either grinder, as the retention and amount you need to purge will be large. With the E10, if it has a similar system to the K10, then you still may have to modify it to have a grinder that properly "clears" with minimal retention. I don't know for sure, except I do know that the Ceado definitely can be cleared of almost everything. I like the single unit burr chamber/motor construction all floating on rubber mounts, as burr alignment does not depend on the case, how the motor is fixed to it etc.. Cleaning the Ceado is an absolute breeze, easiest big grinder I have ever had to clean.

I suspect in raw grind quality you won't see a significant difference...where you might is in the flavour notes retained coffee adds and how easy it is to see the results of a change of grind. On the Ceado E92 I can see the results of a changed grind immediately, because there is almost nothing retained. On the E10...I don't know, but I suspect not.



dfk41 said:


> IMHO, if the E92 is more than £10 dearer, then forget it. See how many others have Ceados conicals on the forum. None as far as I know. There is a reason for that. I am not saying the Ceado is better or worse than the Compak, but it is a lot more expensive, probably by £400. It is not that much better!


Dave, the above is a little misleading, firstly no one on the forum has them, because no one has really been stocking them and they have never been marketed in the UK or to home users. Where they are obtainable, the price has been way over the top. There are many many people who buy high end equipment who are not on this forum e.g. BB sell many many Gene Cafe roasters, far more than the people on this forum who have one. "If the E92 is more than £10 more then forget it" is also a pretty sweeping statement, as some factors may play as important in some customers choice, rather than your assertion that if it is 10+ more it's not worth that? *You say the Ceado is £400 more than the Compak, how do you know this, unless you have first-hand knowledge of BB sale price of the E92 grinder. I have no idea what it might be?*

The reason BB don't stock it, is because I advised them not to...I felt that the E37S was a more practical home use grinder and that if someone really wanted an E92, they should do a special order.

I have no axe to grind, but think hard about what you buy...when I had a K8 fresh in my kitchen it was enormous, the really great portafilter holder was actually an impediment (although I am sure it is great in the commercial environment), because it meant I couldn't use a portafilter ring and the thing wasn't exactly messless. These things don't appear to have changed. Lastly, when people quote retention figures for various grinder, most of them have no idea what the grinder is retaining. There are a lot of people out there with big conicals drinking bad coffee, because of the retention. They thinks it's a few g when in reality it might be 20 or 30g. one guy swore blind on a US forum that his retention was only about 8g, yet if he pulled 3 doubles in a row, each time the shot time kept increasing!

*The E37S can be run with enough beans in the hopper for a few double shots or a days worth of shots. I like you change coffee often and didn't find it a problem. I simply put enough in there for my needs and purged 1 or 2s before my shot. Of all the grinder, it's the absolute most practical. So think hard about an small 83mm flat burr grinder with very low retention....BUT, it is ideal as a single doser (one dose of beans in the throat), it will do it, but the static flap has to be set up with more pressure and there is no disadvantage with running with a few shots worth of beans in the hopper..It's the one I'd still recommend overall.*


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dave, that is certainly one viewpoint, but certainly there are others. Perhaps one reason why no one stocks it, is that it is overpriced and relatively unnown. For a retailer, it will be like swimming against the tide at a very expensive cost. I am not always saying be a sheep and follow the flock. I was told that the grinder would be £1900 plus but accept that may not be accurate.

Personally, I would be very unwilling to lump such a large amount of money into a grinder like this. You had the chance to try it, strip it, timer with it before taking the plunge and I dare say that as a professional tester, you did not may retail for the unit.

The K8 you had I accept had a problem. The new E series seems to be a completely different kettle of fish. It is up to the op what he does with his money but whatever he does, remember, you can only spend it once!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

OP has the offer to try one of the Compaks at Foundry ( 30 miles away ) perhaps he could even take his own preferred coffee and his machine to try it with ...

For the sake of half an hours drive it might satisfy his curiosity as to whether it would make a difference or not ..


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> OP has the offer to try one of the Compaks at Foundry ( 30 miles away ) perhaps he could even take his own preferred coffee and his machine to try it with ...
> 
> For the sake of half an hours drive it might satisfy his curiosity as to whether it would make a difference or not ..


I agree with this. I'm not sure there's much to be gained by the whole 'this is better than that' approach. The bottom line is that both are extremely good grinders and both will have pros and cons. My suggestion? - pop up to Sheffield and we can line up an E8, an E10, an EK43, a Mazzer Royal (with timer modifications) and that way you can have a play with a pump machine or a lever and see what you like best. The good news is, there are loads of options. The bad news is that there are loads of options, including grinders that we can't supply for you! We can supply brand new on the EK and the Compaks and we usually have other refurbed/used grinders hanging around too.


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

Many thanks for your kind offer. I will PM you about bringing my Vivi up if that's ok and try different grinders?


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Great, we"ll look forward to it!


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> Great, we"ll look forward to it!


Just wanted to say thank you to all the people that advised me to upgrade my grinder. I went for the Compak E10oD and all I can say is WOW! I cannot believe the difference!

I've since run some side by side shots with my old Mazzer Mini E and I despite that still knocking out good shots, the Compak just takes it to a whole new league. There is so much more to the coffee from the aroma right down to the viscosity and complexity of the shots. I'm in coffee heaven!









I also wanted to say thank you to the guys at the Foundry for taking the time to help me.

all the best,

Andrew


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

It's a pleasure Andrew. I'm glad we were able to help you out and it's great to hear that the grinder is suiting you! Best of luck with the many coffee adventures ahead.


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