# EK43 Gorilla Gear Burrs



## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

£550



> The G4 refers to the 4 pre-breaking teeth that aids in breaking down the coffee faster and easier, allowing the finishing area of the burr to deal with smaller sections of coffee and reducing the force needed to grind the coffee.


https://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/gorilla-gear-ek43-black

someone go and buy them and report back


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

@Xpenno has them


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

No one spending that amount on a set of burrs would ever report back that they were no good! Go on @Xpenno, spill the beans and make us all want some...


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

fluffles said:


> No one spending that amount on a set of burrs would ever report back that they were no good! Go on @Xpenno, spill the beans and make us all want some...


Still evaluating them. Great results so far but I'm always weary of the honeymoon period.

Main points at the mo are

Hitting taste notes on spro bang on

More perceived clarity (could be perceived as less complex) From John's comments I would presume that this comes from a more even grind

They grind super quick

There is defo less static but still some

It's easily possible to choke any basket and even stall the EK!

Grinding miles from zero for spro

Brewed range looks fine (was an initial concern)

Really hard to make bad tasting drinks


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

So they are more towards the Turkish burrs than the coffee burrs? Would struggle with coarse brewed grind?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

great to hear the initial results.

the PDF has a laser refractometer results, interesting to compare to the previous particle distro analysis which I think was on the old Coffee Burrs from memory

















note scales are different.

must resist buying them....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Id like to see 2 EKs next to each other , one with and one without. Both dialled in for a set dose/yield. Then do some sensory and TDS/EY analysis .


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Id like to see 2 EKs next to each other , one with and one without. Both dialled in for a set dose/yield. Then do some sensory and TDS/EY analysis .


Can you not make it happen? I'll attend.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

My guess is that prebreaking must increase the amount of fines in the early stages which then in turn allows you to grind "coarser" ie further from the touch point.

Can't see why this would produce less static.

T.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I'd be game to join in on the side by side



dsc said:


> Can't see why this would produce less static.


there's a magic coating


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

fatboyslim said:


> Can you not make it happen? I'll attend.


+1


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Well I guess we could make it happen .....


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Well I guess we could make it happen .....


When and where? I could potentially provide the coffee from the next LSOL.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Well I guess we could make it happen .....


We can't even find 15 mins to swap a couple of beers


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> We can't even find 15 mins to swap a couple of beers


Let me know if you manage to sort it. @Xpenno Have you tried the Hasbean LSOL offering? If not do you want me to drop a sample over?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Let me know if you manage to sort it. @Xpenno Have you tried the Hasbean LSOL offering? If not do you want me to drop a sample over?


I've not mate, always up for trying something new


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I'll drop some over.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

As these burrs are black; is it going to make the whiteboard marker alignment trick harder? Or does it then become necessary to use a dial gauge etc? Any thoughts @Xpenno ?


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## Tokar (Dec 5, 2016)

unoll said:


> As these burrs are black; is it going to make the whiteboard marker alignment trick harder? Or does it then become necessary to use a dial gauge etc? Any thoughts @Xpenno ?


On their web page https://www.gorillagear.coffee/ek-43-black-g4 they recommend this tutorial






This is what i am curious...

*Hardness - HV ( Vickers Pyramid Number )*

Standard Steel Burrs - *800 HV*

Gorilla Gear Black Burrs - *2,500 - 3,000 HV*

Main advantage they mention is hardness of 2500-3000HV, and the Vickers table goes only up to 1220HV. And even 1220HV is almost impossible to achive. They say they are using high quality tooling-steel.

I was making some parts with Bohler K340 ISODUR, which is one of the best tool stell on the market and had to use Vacuum heat treatment technology to achieve around 62 rockwells which is around 800HV hardness.

Diamond is 10000HV, so it would mean that diamond is only 3,3 times harder than steel they are using, which also seems impossible.

Maybe i am wrong and i don't doubt quality of their burrs, but i don't like when people play with numbers wrongly like that and using it in advertising.

This tells me that probably their burrs are not that much better than the original ones even though they are trying to point that out so bad.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Tokar said:


> On their web page https://www.gorillagear.coffee/ek-43-black-g4 they recommend this tutorial


Thanks for the video post, however that's the whiteboard marker technique I was referring to, and already use for aligning my ek. If the burrs are black I think it's going to make this technique a fair bit trickier. I also wonder if the whiteboard pen would stick to the magic coating.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

unoll said:


> As these burrs are black; is it going to make the whiteboard marker alignment trick harder? Or does it then become necessary to use a dial gauge etc? Any thoughts @Xpenno ?


It does make it harder yes.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> It does make it harder yes.


But still achievable then I'm guessing.

I'm currently fighting the urge to buy a set, think I'll have to shift a few of my other grinders first though. Interested in hearing feedback first though.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

unoll said:


> But still achievable then I'm guessing.
> 
> I'm currently fighting the urge to buy a set, think I'll have to shift a few of my other grinders first though. Interested in hearing feedback first though.


I have the titus alignment tool, it is problematic for the moving burr though although word on the street is that you can't align the moving burr without a lathe.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Is it available for hire?

Aligning with a large. Tell me more...


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> I have the titus alignment tool, it is problematic for the moving burr though although word on the street is that you can't align the moving burr without a lathe.


Will this alignment rabbit hole never end!!!! There's me thinking I'm sitting pretty with my pen, foil and torque wrench. As @dan1502 just said, I'm also keen to hire your gauge of you're up for it.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

unoll said:


> Will this alignment rabbit hole never end!!!! There's me thinking I'm sitting pretty with my pen, foil and torque wrench. As @dan1502 just said, I'm also keen to hire your gauge of you're up for it.


Mine is broken, currently awaiting a spare part to be delivered.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Xpenno said:


> I have the titus alignment tool


is this what the german (was it german?!) forum was referring to?

https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/ek43-titus-alignment-tool

any UK stockist?

A felt tip pen and a bit of kitchen foil isn't exactly a perfect solution for me....


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Phobic said:


> is this what the german (was it german?!) forum was referring to?
> 
> https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/ek43-titus-alignment-tool
> 
> ...


It is. You can order direct from titus, they ship direct in eu.

MK appear to have something coming out also but it only seems to deal with the less important type of alignment but I could be wrong.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

unoll said:


> But still achievable then I'm guessing.
> 
> I'm currently fighting the urge to buy a set, think I'll have to shift a few of my other grinders first though. Interested in hearing feedback first though.


For info, John Gordon recommended a red marker when I spoke to him the other day.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> For info, John Gordon recommended a red marker when I spoke to him the other day.


Useful to know. A posca might be a good move as well provided it's applied thinly enough.

How much is Frank selling the ek gauges for?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

unoll said:


> Useful to know. A posca might be a good move as well provided it's applied thinly enough.
> 
> How much is Frank selling the ek gauges for?


Mine was early order so best to drop him a mail.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Group buy?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Xpenno said:


> It is. You can order direct from titus, they ship direct in eu.
> 
> MK appear to have something coming out also but it only seems to deal with the less important type of alignment but I could be wrong.


thanks, will have to investigate buying direct.

the MK version just looked like a plate that attached to the center spindle, I can see how it would work but it's essentially an alignment template. can't seem to find any price or availability info sadly.

no idea which would be better however at least the titus is available.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Phobic said:


> thanks, will have to investigate buying direct.
> 
> the MK version just looked like a plate that attached to the center spindle, I can see how it would work but it's essentially an alignment template. can't seem to find any price or availability info sadly.
> 
> no idea which would be better however at least the titus is available.


Titus does axial which is the one that matters most.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

have dropped them a mail, and have asked about potential for a group buy, looks very interesting reading their instragram feed



> titusgrinding@jarjarjacob 78€ + 17€ (shims in SS) + shipping and VAT





> titusgrinding@thecoffeeklein you cannot align the moving burr, but we are offering a service to revise the burr mount on the lathe machine for a mere of 50€. You just have to send it to us.


wonder if they can do the lathe alignment on the gorilla burrs.....


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

mailed Frank from Titus and ordered the alignment tool direct, just paid via paypal €156.18 with vat and delivery.

if you're after one drop him an email [email protected].

looks so much better a technique to using a felt tip!


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Phobic said:


> mailed Frank from Titus and ordered the alignment tool direct, just paid via paypal €156.18 with vat and delivery.
> 
> if you're after one drop him an email [email protected].
> 
> looks so much better a technique to using a felt tip!


How do you feel about loaning this out?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Phobic said:


> have dropped them a mail, and have asked about potential for a group buy, looks very interesting reading their instragram feed
> 
> wonder if they can do the lathe alignment on the gorilla burrs.....


The lathe alignment is on the burr carrier not the burr. Frank suggests that there's almost always no run out so it's probably not worth it.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

fatboyslim said:


> How do you feel about loaning this out?


lol, I only ordered it 9 mins ago









happy to loan it out potentially, however would encourage people to support titus and buy 1, without companies developing tools like this we wouldn't be able to move things along.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Xpenno said:


> The lathe alignment is on the burr carrier not the burr. Frank suggests that there's almost always no run out so it's probably not worth it.


yes I'd misunderstood what he was doing on the lathe



> When you send some burr mounts / burr carrier we will just revise them if the run out is bigger than 0,02mm.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

You could also buy one of these (or similar):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Universal-Magnetic-Base-Stand-Holder-for-Test-Indicator/371089353777

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMALL-MAGNETIC-BASE-WITH-METRIC-DTI-LEVER-GAUGE-CLOCK-DIAL-TEST-INDICATOR-/290834057825?hash=item43b70f8a61:g:zJUAAOSwAPVZJsaT

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMALL-MAGNETIC-BASE-WITH-LONG-ARM-FOR-MILLING-MACHINE-/370459784181?hash=item56411fb3f5:m:mujV6hdSARPaXpdwrv6MC4g

and do the same. Yes it's a cheapo import DTI, but the one offered above (or at least shown on the photo) is a horrid Mitutoyo knock-off as well. If the mag base doesn't want to hold to the end of the shaft just buy this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Clamp-Collar-Double-Split-3mm-To-100mm-Shaft-Collar-Clamp-Type-Collars-/302160614643?var=&hash=item465a2d14f3:m:mVVNT1GDmiVEuvLQq8SJcjw

[or similar]

and attach to the end of the shaft to increase the diameter so the base can stick.

T.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

It does seem a lot of money for home use. I can understand someone who sells EK43s having one to set up and maintain them. Sharing/hiring is a good idea so long as people treat it very carefully as I know if I bought one and lent it out and it came back with the slightest damage it would annoy me. I like the idea of fashioning something similar as @dsc suggests. It's not something I have time to concentrate on right now so if someone beats me too it and successfully sources all the parts and gets it working well then I'd be very interested to hear about it.


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## JohnGordon09 (Jun 27, 2017)

COATINGS TP John Gordon.pdf

Here is some technical info on a few different types of coatings not only myself but also other companies have and are testing, the process involves hardening and coating. Just so you know, the numbers are not made up but are actually provided by the treatment facility that does the process.

The reasoning behind providing this information was that people were asking for information on the technical differences between my burrs and the standard burrs, so it's not really a case of wanting to "point that out so bad" as to providing information that other manufacturers won't, like particle analysis, how many companies out there actually publish a load of comparative data on their products?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

@JohnGordon09 really nice of you to drop in and provide the info.

we'd love to hear more about the burrs!


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

JohnGordon09 said:


> View attachment 27496
> 
> 
> Here is some technical info on a few different types of coatings not only myself but also other companies have and are testing, the process involves hardening and coating. Just so you know, the numbers are not made up but are actually provided by the treatment facility that does the process.
> ...


Why would anyone think that the data is made up? I think for most folks the information provided in the data sheets serves no purpose as I doubt a lot of people know what Vickers hardness scale means. Particle analysis on the other hand would definitely be handy as that's a real comparison of what the coated burrs can do vs. stock burrs.

T.


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## JohnGordon09 (Jun 27, 2017)

Phobic said:


> @JohnGordon09 really nice of you to drop in and provide the info.
> 
> we'd love to hear more about the burrs!


More than happy to answer questions.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

JohnGordon09 said:


> More than happy to answer questions.


Fantastic thanks.

obvious 1 for starters, can you share any better resolution particle distribution graphs please, we're geeky (some more than others!).

other than the 4 pre-breakers what are the key design concepts that you're trying to achieve, it's hard to spot what's going on without holding them physically and comparing side by side with OEM burrs.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

JohnGordon09 said:


> More than happy to answer questions.


I have a few I'd be interested to hear about that ive been pondering, it'd be great to hear off you:

- How was the placement of the prebreakers relative to the screw positions decided? Was this the optimal positioning based on testing?

- Why 2 additional prebreakers and not more? Were there other variants made with more prebreakers, but 4 was found to be best following testing?

- What tolerance were you aligning to when testing the burrs?


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## JohnGordon09 (Jun 27, 2017)

dsc said:


> Why would anyone think that the data is made up? I think for most folks the information provided in the data sheets serves no purpose as I doubt a lot of people know what Vickers hardness scale means. Particle analysis on the other hand would definitely be handy as that's a real comparison of what the coated burrs can do vs. stock burrs.
> 
> T.


People may not know what the Vickers Hardness scale means but google is a pretty amazing thing and can tell you a lot, so a comparison of hardness and friction rating serves a purpose to help explain the reasoning behind the difference. Particle analysis is such a hot topic these days and to be honest I'm not sure anyone can truly understand that either, I know that with the black burrs a particle distribution with less fines and a smaller range is achievable and this is the path to my goal to obtain as close to a unimodal grind as possible. What this means in my opinion in regards to taste = greater clarity, defined characteristics and intense aroma.

For those who have seen Chris Hendons talks or know of Matt Pergers turn around in ideas around what we want to see in particle distribution since Chris's talk, will know they want to see the opposite. What I have also learnt is while being able to manipulate particle distribution during testing, one distribution does not suit all, light, medium or dark roast, high and low density coffee's will alter the distribution drastically and will alter a coffee's taste.

I have made the mistake in the past of saying a particular distribution is better but I don't believe there is a better or worse distribution but only a better or worse taste in the perception of the person tasting.

What I do strongly believe is performance goes much further than particle distribution. Burr life, static and equipment operating temperatures are so important and this is where another big step is made, I also believe static inhibits extraction and that a reduction in excessive energy will increase extraction and taste characteristics, a theory still in testing. In the case of the Mythos, a reduction in excessive heat means greater thermal stability, for those that are using a Mythos in a 30-35kg + environment will know exactly what I mean, In the case of the Robur, testing has shown a reduction of 10c in collar temperature during peak operation, greater thermal stability = less thermal expansion and less grind adjustment.

Many, Many of our beloved manufacturers state their products can do x,y and z and also boast about testing but very very few are willing to release any data, one person even claiming extensive testing on 3d particle shape analysis on a particular LPA machine that I know for a fact is not currently available or capable of producing.

This is something I personally am frustrated by and the reasoning behind the willingness to release performance data and comparative data as it is obtained through testing and improving products.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

interesting read John.

I think for lots of us on here operating temp and burr wear aren't issues as home users, we're not put much through the machine each day, a few are grinding frozen as well

presumably static increases with usage as well, however even at low usage static's there, what do you think is going on with static to reduce extraction? i could guess at a few things, maybe most obvious being that "super" fines are more prone to sticking inside the machine...

do you see the old trick of using a small mist of water on the beans as a partial mitigation?


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## Phatboy (Jul 18, 2017)

We're tried these Gorillas on our Ek. But had to put the originals back in. Are the 2 Gorilla Burrs identical? is their a top & bottom burr? I noticed the original Mahlkonig set we have are numbered 4 & 6. We aligned the burrs using the marker technique but the original burrs are currently giving us a much better balanced espresso, less fines, less retention. What could I be doing wrong?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Phatboy said:


> We're tried these Gorillas on our Ek. But had to put the originals back in. Are the 2 Gorilla Burrs identical? is their a top & bottom burr? I noticed the original Mahlkonig set we have are numbered 4 & 6. We aligned the burrs using the marker technique but the original burrs are currently giving us a much better balanced espresso, less fines, less retention. What could I be doing wrong?


How are you quantifying less fines?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

@JohnGordon09


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

did you re-align the burrs?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Phobic said:


> did you re-align the burrs?


looks like they used the marker pen technique....

Did you try removing the centre bit and turning it 180 degrees ?


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## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

I've had a set of these for about 3 months.


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## JohnGordon09 (Jun 27, 2017)

Phatboy said:


> We're tried these Gorillas on our Ek. But had to put the originals back in. Are the 2 Gorilla Burrs identical? is their a top & bottom burr? I noticed the original Mahlkonig set we have are numbered 4 & 6. We aligned the burrs using the marker technique but the original burrs are currently giving us a much better balanced espresso, less fines, less retention. What could I be doing wrong?


I am curious to know how much coffee you put through the EK when trying the burrs?, Yes the 2 Gorilla Gear burrs are identical and so are the MK ones. are you using the EK at home or in a cafe?

I am also curious how you quantify "less fines", as when changing any burrs on any grinder it will take some time to fill all the gaps inside the chamber so there will be some retention to begin regardless of burrs, so I would hope that you have run at least 2-5kgs of coffee before passing judgement?


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## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

What @JohnGordon09 said. I've been running them for months before I come to solid conclusion.

Hence I now have a solid data set.


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## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

I've used the gorilla burrs for 3 months and as you can see, extraction wise they have performed to the same levels as the well seasoned EK43 Coffee burrs. So a big plus to the preseasoning.

Flavour wise, with out side by side testing, its hard to say. Bur I did put the EK burrs back in for a day and found that the coffees exhibited decreased clarity in the acidity and floral tones, but perhaps a little more sweetness. I'm very happy with the coffee I brew with the G4 burrs.

Static wise, we run without the static clip on our EK, using the static to remove dust and chaff from the brew. Whilst retention tests have shown no difference between the burr sets ( 3g per 200g ground - apx 1.5%) day to day use shows less being retained in the chute, whilst this is not conclusive, it would support the claim of less static being produced to to grinding.

One thing to note though is they a lot of dust in the early days, If not cleaned regularly the chute can block up to almost 50% coverage. This is still an issue (although much reduced) after apx 80kg of use.

I realise that a lot of this is anecdotal, but hopefully the data set shows that in a real world environment, they meet there claims and are at least as good if not better than the std EK43 burrs.

Below is a link to the spreadsheet I've been using to track the extractions of the filter coffees we use. Data Sets in Italics are for the Gorilla Gear Burrs.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17sn7sLnySa2yGfrEvPjfSRdytYEyhQ_zjObEvg08r9U/edit?usp=sharing


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

matisse said:


> I've used the gorilla burrs for 3 months and as you can see, extraction wise they have performed to the same levels as the well seasoned EK43 Coffee burrs. So a big plus to the preseasoning.
> 
> Flavour wise, with out side by side testing, its hard to say. Bur I did put the EK burrs back in for a day and found that the coffees exhibited decreased clarity in the acidity and floral tones, but perhaps a little more sweetness. I'm very happy with the coffee I brew with the G4 burrs.
> 
> ...


So you haven't tried using them for espresso? How fine can the G4s grind at the finest setting?


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## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

No, we don't use the EK for espresso so would have nothing to compare against, strictly mythos in my gaff.

However, we were unable to grind fine enough on the std EK burrs for the style of shot we pull, but I don't see this being an issue with the gorilla's. I'd say that they are between the Coffee and Turkish burrs in terms of "fineness"


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

matisse said:


> I've used the gorilla burrs for 3 months and as you can see, extraction wise they have performed to the same levels as the well seasoned EK43 Coffee burrs. So a big plus to the preseasoning.
> 
> Flavour wise, with out side by side testing, its hard to say. Bur I did put the EK burrs back in for a day and found that the coffees exhibited decreased clarity in the acidity and floral tones, but perhaps a little more sweetness. I'm very happy with the coffee I brew with the G4 burrs.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this, its really interesting to see this sort of data. Some of your EYs are seriously high, way more than ever seems to taste good through my setup (EK coffee burrs). Do you happen to know much about the makeup of your brewing water?


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## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10SgogTYdkdxxHqIoT5LC7bewtcu6aM1xmp-5MtkZZr0/edit?usp=drivesdk

TA DA!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

fluffles said:


> Thanks for posting this, its really interesting to see this sort of data. Some of your EYs are seriously high, way more than ever seems to taste good through my setup (EK coffee burrs). Do you happen to know much about the makeup of your brewing water?


They seem pretty typical to me, irrespective of grinder/water.


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## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

MWJB said:


> They seem pretty typical to me, irrespective of grinder/water.


Id say that they are pretty normal for ek43 users, a lot of other grinders struggle to reach that without taint consistently.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

matisse said:


> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...t?usp=drivesdk
> 
> TA DA!


Thanks! Interestingly our water spec is fairly similar, and I also use a Bestmax. My GH is a touch higher but otherwise very alike.



matisse said:


> Id say that they are pretty normal for ek43 users, a lot of other grinders struggle to reach that without taint consistently.


Yeah, though I suspect the burr set plays a part here. I'm guessing that your coffee burrs are the old-style? And now you're on the Gorillas which are different to my cofffee burrs which are the new-style (they grind finer than the old-style).

Thanks for all the info.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

matisse said:


> No, we don't use the EK for espresso so would have nothing to compare against, strictly mythos in my gaff.
> 
> However, we were unable to grind fine enough on the std EK burrs for the style of shot we pull, but I don't see this being an issue with the gorilla's. I'd say that they are between the Coffee and Turkish burrs in terms of "fineness"


This surprises me as I am on the old style coffee burrs and have had no problems at all grinding fine enough albeit that I set the zero point at the point where the burrs just stop chirping.


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## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

The burrs are from the LE version, no idea if they are the new or old style.

We dose 15g, brew at low flow rate but for 40-45 secs. Getting it fine enough for that time at that low dose was the issue.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

I would've thought they'd be new style coffee burrs then. Typically around what brew weight do you produce? I'm just interested in the kind of recipe you are referring to in case it's worth trying at some point.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

15g is pretty low, I find it's much easier going up to 20g so you can grind fine enough though that might not work so well in a commercial setting.....


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## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

Averagely at about 33-35% ratio, so tween 40-46g out.


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## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh for sure, the flow rate across the puck is portional to the bed depth, so that extra 5g makes a big difference.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

I've ordered me one of these.

Not cos of upgradeitis, but because I dropped a piece of aliminium into my old burrs and entirely ****ed them - fingers crossed for good results!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

robashton said:


> I've ordered me one of these.
> 
> Not cos of upgradeitis, but because I dropped a piece of aliminium into my old burrs and entirely ****ed them - fingers crossed for good results!


Didnt fancy the ssp burrs?


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Didnt fancy the ssp burrs?


Considered it briefly; got lost in threads of people discussing what burrs they thought were best, almost just went with stock and grabbed these practically at a coin toss.

I think if I was changing cos upgrade-itis I'd have put some more time into it, but any burrs gotta be better than my trashed ones!


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

First thoughts then..

My initial reaction was "Wtf, I can't pull the shots I was pulling with the old burrs at all" (15g -> 36g in 27s), everything is just pissing everywhere..

And then I remembered that when I first got my EK it was like that and actually my drifting towards the shorter and tighter shots was probably an indication of how ****ed my burrs actually were (Still getting 20.5-21% EY on most shots mind you, just gloopy)).

So back to the 18g baskets, 19g doses, every single 1:2.0 -> 1:2.5 shot tasted like ass - refrac told me that I was bumping 21-22% EY on every shot regardless of configuration and then I realised I was trying to make the wrong thing.

1:2.8-1:3 so long as I keep the shot times below 21s yields tasty coffee and the refrac tells me I'm 21-21.5% EY for most of those shots. It pours very tidily even on a naked portafilter and every change to the dial (or non-change) has been met with an appropriate reaction from the output yield/time which would lend creedence to that pre-seasoning claim they make.

Pulled a shot for my girlfriend this morning (19g to 55g in 20s @ 7.5TDS) and her reaction was "Wow, that's actually amazing" - she's not wrong, it's the sweetest coffee I've made in my own house (or tasted out of the house for that matter) in quite some time, it's not espresso - but I'm going to have to make peace with the fact once again that I'm using an EK43 and if I want gloopy-de-gloop I have to either play games (Drop temp by a heap I imagine) or get a grinder that's geared towards that kind of output, cos this level of sweetness is something else entirely.

So.. are they better than stock burrs? Shrug, no idea, they remind me of my stock burrs four years ago before they travelled the world and had all sorts of shite (including aluminium) shoved through them. They certainly grind fast though.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

@robashton your 20 second shots are they at pull pressure on the sage or any pre infusion ?


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Interesting, 3:1 ratio with 19g below 21s sounds gusher territory fast.

T.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dsc said:


> Interesting, 3:1 ratio with 19g below 21s sounds gusher territory fast.
> 
> T.


Longer ratios can be brewed quicker because you're putting so much more solvent through the puck.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> @robashton your 20 second shots are they at pull pressure on the sage or any pre infusion ?


PI @ 70%, OPV capped at 6bars. I can't comment on the health of that four year old Sage, it's been on its last legs for a year now.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

dsc said:


> Interesting, 3:1 ratio with 19g below 21s sounds gusher territory fast.
> 
> T.


Very much gusher territory, while I can tighten up and do 1:2 if I'm using the 18g basket, I haven't yet made a shot with these burrs at anything less than 2.8x dose that remotely tastes acceptable - this somewhat falls in line with what I remember from my standard coffee burrs before I buggered them up beyond recognition - at least the pour itself is tidy.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

A 21s gusher, it's not spaffing out everywhere so there's that.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Yet again - interesting







it starts off like a fast shot so I was expecting the pour "cone" to grow massive, then quickly thin down, but it actually seems to flow ok, just a bit quick that's all.

T.


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

dsc said:


> Interesting, 3:1 ratio with 19g below 21s sounds gusher territory fast.
> 
> T.


I like to run very light filter roasts at those sorts of numbers. If you go for a "typical" ratio/time you often lose flavour separation.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Some of my favourite ever EK shots were those early 20-ish second 3x out gushers. Liquid gold.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

This is a good example of how making espresso can be so frustrating - you can arrive at a similar EY in different ways and get very different results... a caution against the 'this is 21% so should be about right' mindset


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Owning an EK is like "throw all the knowledge you know about espresso and try again".

I recently had a mess up and got a 18g->62g shot in ~30 seconds. Damn tasty, surprisingly.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> Some of my favourite ever EK shots were those early 20-ish second 3x out gushers. Liquid gold.


I wonder how long period this will last - and whether I moved away from these simply because my burrs got ****ed, or just had a few hundred kilos through them.

You're not rocking an EK at all any more are you?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

robashton said:


> I wonder how long period this will last - and whether I moved away from these simply because my burrs got ****ed, or just had a few hundred kilos through them.
> 
> You're not rocking an EK at all any more are you?


Yeah I still use it at home, my starting recipe is 20 in 50 out in 25-30 (and most stuff is good somewhere around there) but don't feel like i hit those 'wow' shots as much as before


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Right - that's much more the shot that I ended up with after a year or two, that's a shame!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I definitely think there is a correlation to the shots "dulling" as the burrs dull and optimally the super sweet best ek shots are in the sub 250 kg usage range


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Not going to use these burrs for any events then!


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

A week or so later then...

I've ended up going entirely the other way for most of my shots, pulling at 1:3 in about 35 seconds @ 95C, which is reminiscent as to how I'd be using the ol' turkish burrs - I'm pulling most shots to about 22-23% EY this way and they're heavenly sweet which is cool.

Got some "darker" stuff coming in shortly (James Gourmet espresso roasts are normally somewhat more developed than the rest of the UK scene) and I'll be interested in seeing how that ends up drawing out.


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

@*robashton*

Now more than a month later... What are you doing? ?

1:3 low temp fast shots or 1:3 high temp slow shots?

I don't understand why you changed your mind from 20" to +30" shots.... ¿?


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