# Afraid to Adjust Further



## chrsds (Oct 21, 2020)

I recently picked up my first machine, a Gaggia Classic with adjusted OPV and i've just installed a PID. Been spending some time today trying to dial in a shot, thankfully i was given a 1kg bag of beans from a friend so more than happy to use enough to get things right, the beans are a dark roast from Pure Roasters in Dumbarton, new to me so i'm a little limited with my knowledge of what to expect from the beans.

I worked through doses from 14-16g and worked through various different grind settings. My current position is 15g in to 26g out in 16s, the result of this a ok tasting shot with a bitter aftertaste that comes through slowly. I'm using a bottomless PF with 14g basket, pretty happy that I'm not get any channeling but i cant seem to get any closer to a nice shot, if i add some milk to it my partner would happily drink it but its not there for me yet.

I am using a Rhino hand grinder set 4 clicks away from the burrs touching so there is a bit of movement each way but no matter what i have tried i feel like i'm always ending up in the wrong direction. With going back and forth between slightly bitter and very bitter i don't want to be making more adjustments as i don't want to keep going away from the results i'm aiming for. Despite the efforts today, I'm not fed up of grinding by hand, it would be good to know how much it is worth.

Am i making things much harder for myself using the Rhino compared to a grinder with a clearer adjustment?

Do i need to be worrying about the grinder setting changing between uses, worth checking the clicks each time?

I have a Niche Zero on order so hoping that will help with some clarity on the setting, should i accept the shot i'm getting now so i don't burn out from trying?

I am pretty new to having my own machine and dialling it in myself so i expect a challenge and process to get things dialled, think i just need the reality check.


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

Not sure about the rhino hand grinder but most struggle initially with new equipment. Once you get the niche you should be able to dial in consistently. Try and use your usual/quality beans as you'll need to change settings with different beans anyway. Stick with it.

Sent from my SNE-LX1 using Tapatalk


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## earthflattener (Jul 27, 2015)

I had a rhino grinder initially for french press etc. When I bought my machine I ordered a Niche at the same time, but couldn't make the Rhino work too well with espresso grind, so I bought a 1Xpresso JX-Pro while waiting with the idea of selling it on when the niche arrived. It was night and day compared to the Rhino. Decided to hang on to it after the Niche arrived for emergencies, holidays, weddings and in case I need to grind coffee when in the bath. In other words, I just want to keep it.


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## chrsds (Oct 21, 2020)

Made our morning coffees today and happily accepted that there is a certain variability with the grinder that is harder to control. Shots were a bit slower today and still with a slight bitterness but it's drinkable, its the first time I have accepted it has been drinkable. The better half got her milky coffee and was happy with it so i think i can live with it being close.



earthflattener said:


> bought a 1Xpresso JX-Pro while waiting with the idea of selling it on when the niche arrived


 With the hope that the Niche is only a few weeks away and with recent spending I'm quite reluctant to get another grinder to improve things in the short term.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

You need to grind finer. Ignore the idea of not grinding finer because the coffee is bitter for now.

The rhino is probably not suitable and might not go fine enough.

To get something better you could increase yield. 15:26 is very short anyway. 15:45-60 might come out in a reasonable time and taste better.


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## chrsds (Oct 21, 2020)

When I have gone as fine as I could the machine ended up choking, I'll try it tomorrow with a larger yield to compare what is happening.


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## chrsds (Oct 21, 2020)

@Rob1 Tested today with a longer shot, didnt want to make a huge difference so went 36g, tasted a more distinct sour taste so I think thats a clearer sign of the under extraction?

Both of the shots that i pulled today much were slower than previously, the second one took 90 seconds, i'll worry less about time until i get the niche. its slow but tasting better, ill got up to 45g tomorrow.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

chrsds said:


> @Rob1 Tested today with a longer shot, didnt want to make a huge difference so went 36g, tasted a more distinct sour taste so I think thats a clearer sign of the under extraction?
> 
> Both of the shots that i pulled today much were slower than previously, the second one took 90 seconds, i'll worry less about time until i get the niche. its slow but tasting better, ill got up to 45g tomorrow.


 Go coarser. Try 16:70g out.

Try to force a malfunction then work back shorter.

Even though your earlier shots were bitter, they were likely under-extracted too.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

chrsds said:


> @Rob1 Tested today with a longer shot, didnt want to make a huge difference so went 36g, tasted a more distinct sour taste so I think thats a clearer sign of the under extraction?
> 
> Both of the shots that i pulled today much were slower than previously, the second one took 90 seconds, i'll worry less about time until i get the niche. its slow but tasting better, ill got up to 45g tomorrow.


 Well 90 seconds is extreme. Is there not at least one in-between setting for 16 seconds and 90 seconds?

The bitter flavour you were getting wasn't over extraction and while previous shots weren't sour they were probably also under extracted hence "don't worry about not going finer because of bitterness".

Sorry it wasn't clear, my recommendation to go for 45-60g out was based on your 16 seconds shot time at the lower yield (so I didn't mean change grind setting AND increase yield at the same time, though you could certainly try) just to be clear I meant your grind setting that delivered your ratio in 16 seconds might yield better results at a significantly longer ratio.


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## chrsds (Oct 21, 2020)

My Bad, i overcomplicated things. i'll reset on the grind, back to 4 clicks from binding on the grinder and i'll let it go to 45-60g. Now that i have the sour taste i suppose i'll have a better idea of the changes that are happening. If the 4 clicks grinder setting is an acceptable taste then i will probably just stick to it until the Niche arrives. (may have a wee play with adjustments in isolation to try and get a better understanding of everything.

@MWJB what sort of malfunction are you suggesting?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

chrsds said:


> My Bad, i overcomplicated things. i'll reset on the grind, back to 4 clicks from binding on the grinder and i'll let it go to 45-60g. Now that i have the sour taste i suppose i'll have a better idea of the changes that are happening. If the 4 clicks grinder setting is an acceptable taste then i will probably just stick to it until the Niche arrives. (may have a wee play with adjustments in isolation to try and get a better understanding of everything.
> 
> @MWJB what sort of malfunction are you suggesting?


 45-60g is a big range, pick one. Otherwise your extraction will be different with every shot.

A malfunction that has no sourness, basically a coffee like you are expecting, just a bit flat/dull. When you get that, work back shorter on ratio to see if it cleans up without dropping back into sour.


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## chrsds (Oct 21, 2020)

To be clearer, i will increase the yield to 45g and experiment with an incremental increase to the point of finding the best taste. At that point i will do as you say and work back on the ratio.

Is there a particular way that i should approach? If its a difference of grind I'll stick to the ratio i find working for now until i can get a more consistent grind.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

chrsds said:


> To be clearer, i will increase the yield to 45g and experiment with an incremental increase to the point of finding the best taste. At that point i will do as you say and work back on the ratio.
> 
> Is there a particular way that i should approach? If its a difference of grind I'll stick to the ratio i find working for now until i can get a more consistent grind.


 It's a difference of grind size. Nearly all burr grinders are consistent.

Keep extending the ratio, until brews go flat/filmy/lack acidity. Then try a click coarser, if sourness appears, go back to shot ratio & grind where it was last good. Make a coupe of brews for all drinkable conditions, there will be some natural variation at any setting/ratio.


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## chrsds (Oct 21, 2020)

Reset the grinder to 4 clicks and 45g this morning was much better, sourness had dropped and it was predominantly lacking flavour. I pulled a couple shots and saw a little variation but both being nicer.

I'll try a couple more seconds to compare then work at going coarser. My main thought about dose/grind now is that it was about 25s until the first drop of coffee were in the cup so I guess the adjustments will reduce those numbers?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The longer you pull your shot, the weaker the shot will be, at this point we're concentrating on the flavour, with an eye on building strength back up if needed, once you are happy. Bear in mind, even a weak espresso at 16:45g is four times stronger than any filter coffee & twice as strong as Turkish.

Focus on total time, rather than drips, by the time you see drips, your shot (at 1:3) is a quarter of the way through, rather than just starting. But a 50s overall shot time (guess) suggests you have scope to go another click coarser.


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