# Weighing when brewing espresso



## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

When I did some training we didn't do any weighting...But after reading various posts etc and James Hoffmanns posts its obviously something I need to do.

At the moment I fill the basket full with a mound. then level it off, tampt it etc....Is this ok for day to day drinking? Lattes/Capps have tasted fine this way.

Can anyone explain the steps I need to go through. I know If I buy beans from some roasters it recommends what times/weight etc. But if anyone could help a novice or point to some links that would be great. I have a vario grinder and Piccino machine


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

Weighing the dose is dead simple:

-Choose your dose weight, e.g 14/15/16/17/18g etc

-weigh the beans going in (optional but helps keep waste low and avoids beans left in the hopper going stale

-grind it up!

-weigh ground coffee (may not be the same as the weight you put in depending on how much coffee the chute of the grinder holds, brushing out the chute may be necessary to get your full dose.

When you figure out how much your grinder will deliver from x amount of beans in you will get into a routine with it fairly quickly.

If you want to grind straight into your basket then you can weigh the portafilter first and zero the scales, then grind & dose the coffee and weigh again.

This is the best way of keeping your dose consistent at home.

Hope that helps!

Michael

Sent from my Galaxy SIII using Tapatalk


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Thanks. For example Square mile has this brew guide for red brick

Dose : 18-19 grams

Brew temperature : 201ºF-202ºF/94ºC-94.5ºC

Brew time : 28-30 sec

Total Volume : approx 50ml

Brew weight : 28-30 grams

`When they say dose 18-19g is that beans going in or going out?

If I was generally making lattes/ Capp would I need to do this...Is the weighing method mainly for espressos


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

Dose is pre-brewing, so ground coffee.

You can either weigh the liquid coming out (beverage weight) or use volume or sight/blonding to stop the shot.

This should always be the case no matter which drink you are making, as lattes & caps need a decent espresso as their base!

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Not sure why I was not told about it. oh well. What about dose weight, e.g 14/15/16/17/18g etc where would I begin with this?


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

Who did you do training with out of curiosity? It's a method I always go over when doing training with home users.

It's hard to say what dose you should use. Try them all from 14g up to the max you can fit in the basket. Each weight will taste different so its whatever tastes best to you. Just remember the higher dose you use, the more espresso you can extract.

For example if you stop the shot when the pour starts to blonde, then an 18g dose will blonde later into the extraction than a 14g dose (assuming the grind is correct for that dose)


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Maybe they were just trying to keep it simple in your training for beginners rather than scare you off with numbers and scales and the like?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Using scales and brew ratios isnt new but it is still not the way most trainers conduct basic barista training, I'd say. It's a more advanced/technical approach that I would probably only introduce at intermediate level, once the barista has grasped the basics. Think I've said before, when you learn to ski you're taught to turn and stop by using snowplough, but you certainly dont use those methods once you're onto the red runs. Probably why you werent taught it.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

My training was brilliant to be honest. and only spent a few hours on the kit, as we covered a lot during the day. So me just filling the portafilter to a mound etc isn't the way to be doing it?

I have the vario grinder.. I can set grid time..Will this help with the weight?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

There is no right and wrong about it. It depends on your own personal current goal. At first most people just want to make espresso, and they find that it is great, because they are used to being quite happy with what they have been getting from high street shops, and then find that they can do better themselves at home. Goal achieved. In time they realise that sometimes it's good and sometimes it seems not so good, so they start looking at how they can become more consistent... and raise their general standard of espresso a little higher. A new goal. That's when it becomes useful to start dealing in measurable terms such as weights rather than just filling to a mound etc. because it allows you to (a) communicate to others exactly what you have done, (b) others to communicate to you how you should adjust your technique/approach, and © work to a specific, repeatable recipe for your espresso.

If you are happy just filling the basket, and it tastes good, do that. When you're no longer happy with that, or if the people you are giving drinks to don't think your espresso is as nice as you think it is, then that's when you might decide to adopt the whole weighing thing.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Think Im trying to do to much too soon, trying to be perfect!  I should get to grips just making a nice espresso then move onto weight etc. Have a few books like the professional baristas guide and David Schomers book, but they don't really go into dosage. struggling to find a good info site for it on the web, but I guess Its just experimenting. and looking what people are trying to do on here. I had no idea I could put something like 15g into a basket. always thought you had to fill it. So....if I did put 15g in which would half fill it, if that. Im guessing my grind would be very fine as I would need to slow it down to hit around 20-30 secs?

Do you know what people use the timer for on the vario grinder?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Yes... keep it simple







(for now!!)

Your basket will quite probably fit 18-20g, so if you put 15 in then yes, must grind finer due to less resistance from the thinner puck. You certainly don't have to fill the basket, but you also can if you like (as long as you leave room in the basket for the grinds to expand when wet!)

The timed dose is an attempt by the manufacturer to deliver a consistent dose each time. They use a timer because the technology for automatically delivering a weighed dose is much more complicated. The times will have a margin of error, and if you use it you may need to keep changing the duration as the beans expand/contract throughout the day, but getting to know how the timer works is probably a good thing to help with consistency.


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

I have a Vario and don't use the timer function. This is because I'm using different beans/amounts/brew methods etc. throughout the day. If I was only making espresso, staying on the same beans, and using a hoppers worth quick enough to not have a big effect on the freshness of the beans, then maybe I would use it.

It doesn't take long to weigh out a dose of beans, chuck in the grinder and run till it's empty. Give it a couple knocks once it sounds empty and wait a little extra, as it'll spit some out at the end - particularly at fine settings. The Vario's grind retention is very good so you don't really need to worry about lots of coffee being held in the shoot. Having said that I give it a poke with a small paint brush each time I change bean or grind size.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

So would a 15g VST be a good investment, or would I still be grinding very fine to achieve 20-30 seconds.

regarding the timer. I guess I would be better to weight the beans rather than set the timer...or does it not work like this.

Thanks for answering all my questions by the way mike. You must have had enough of me by now!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Not at all







Good questions


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

For Espresso Earepap on the vario what settings do you use...I know its different for everyone...just to give me an idea. I'm on about k1. Which is extracting at around 25 seconds...To be honest I don't know if that correct.


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

I have one without letters, the macro slider is always the finest, and micro is in the top half (so A - K I suppose). It doesn't quite have the range it claims to and as I mostly drink filter coffees I calibrated it so there's lots of wiggle room round there. I can just get fine enough for espresso - though struggle with very light roasts - and the coarsest is in the right area for French press, if a little too fine.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Mine has the letters. So Im on (fine - 1 on macro) and (finer, must be micro on yours) is on around h -i. I did try macro 2 (1-4 is espresso setting). Made a massive change with `Lord Dunford from extract! Wouldn't think I would need to be on the finest setting...I guess like you say, theres not much to play with


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## AlIam (Aug 30, 2011)

I have a vario too. The grind time delivers a fairly consistent weight from one shot to another. If you change beans or change fineness, the weight changes. Once I'm dialled in, the timer works well for me.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Hi allam, have not used the timer yet. Trying weighing for first time tonight. Sorry didn't you work out weight before setting. Get timer. And what grind settings do you use on vario


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Earlepap said:


> I have one without letters, the macro slider is always the finest, and micro is in the top half (so A - K I suppose). It doesn't quite have the range it claims to and as I mostly drink filter coffees I calibrated it so there's lots of wiggle room round there. I can just get fine enough for espresso - though struggle with very light roasts - and the coarsest is in the right area for French press, if a little too fine.


Did you calabrate yours. Have read about it on websites. But got nothing in instructions about it

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> There is no right and wrong about it. It depends on your own personal current goal. At first most people just want to make espresso, and they find that it is great, because they are used to being quite happy with what they have been getting from high street shops, and then find that they can do better themselves at home. Goal achieved. In time they realise that sometimes it's good and sometimes it seems not so good, so they start looking at how they can become more consistent... and raise their general standard of espresso a little higher. A new goal. That's when it becomes useful to start dealing in measurable terms such as weights rather than just filling to a mound etc. because it allows you to (a) communicate to others exactly what you have done, (b) others to communicate to you how you should adjust your technique/approach, and © work to a specific, repeatable recipe for your espresso.
> 
> If you are happy just filling the basket, and it tastes good, do that. When you're no longer happy with that, or if the people you are giving drinks to don't think your espresso is as nice as you think it is, then that's when you might decide to adopt the whole weighing thing.


Mike, that might just be the best break-down of how we 'all' caught Obsessive Coffee Disorder that i have ever read!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I caught a lucky streak of words


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

Outlaw333 said:


> Mike, that might just be the best break-down of how we 'all' caught Obsessive Coffee Disorder that i have ever read!


I second this!

I started off with my grinder on timer dose, did alright, but obviously not consistent, I never thought I'd be stood there at my bar poking around with a fork to break up clumps, and a spoon to get the decimal point to what I want it! But it does taste pretty awesome this way ... I also tend to make slight adjustments to the grinder if I think it's too humid/dry, on the first shot of the day, seems to work.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

well when .3 of a gram of grinds can have an effect of up to 10 seconds (according to one of the TTL speakers, I can't remember exactly who it was that said it) on extraction time, it makes absolute sense to be weighing accurately, I spent quite a while where i would weigh to dial in and then just go by eye and feel to determine my dose and i was actually pretty good at it but when you are trying to nail a tricky shot or just explore its capabilities it is vital to be able to control as many variables as possible with total precision. VST baskets also give very little wiggle room and thus going by eye alone would be near impossible.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

On my Vario I'm on E2 this morning with a very nice Tanzanian coffee from Rave. I find I very rarely have to venture down to 1 on the macro, only if they beans are getting a bit past their best. I probably don't have as much "wiggle room" at the coarse end though because of this.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Really, I was surprised I was on macro 1. But If I go up to number two, the extractions were pretty much at 18-20 seconds...That was on setting F to K. I think.


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## AlIam (Aug 30, 2011)

chrisdunstan said:


> Hi allam, have not used the timer yet. Trying weighing for first time tonight. Sorry didn't you work out weight before setting. Get timer. And what grind settings do you use on vario


In reverse order, my grind settings aren't relevant to you because out machines are calibrated the same. If we both had the same settings, we'd get different grinds.

What I do is tare my scales with the portafilter on them then run the vario for 13 seconds. Weigh the full portafilter and adjust grind fineness aiming for 17g. I fine tune a bit from there if I need to but unless I'm using supermarket stale beans, this always seems to get me close to how I like.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Dose, time and output weight are great because (assuming temp stability) they are at the nux of espresso making skill. Work to these and the grind will find itself.

On a personal level, I've had a conundrum answered for me recently through some barista training. I've been struggling to get an acceptable shot from the livelier blends that some roasters are offering. Despite having possessed and used a variety of espresso machines for twenty years I couldn't work out what technique I was failing to use. The question was answered when I prepared a shot for the roaster to try using the parameters I would expect to work, including visual cues.

He found the shot balanced and tasty. I had a sip and it was fucking disgusting. An overpowering mush of bright over powering flavours such that it tasted like Bovril.

There really is no accounting for taste.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Expobarista said:


> Dose, time and output weight are great because (assuming temp stability) they are at the nux of espresso making skill. Work to these and the grind will find itself.
> 
> On a personal level, I've had a conundrum answered for me recently through some barista training. I've been struggling to get an acceptable shot from the livelier blends that some roasters are offering. Despite having possessed and used a variety of espresso machines for twenty years I couldn't work out what technique I was failing to use. The question was answered when I prepared a shot for the roaster to try using the parameters I would expect to work, including visual cues.
> 
> ...


You could have a palate unlike the roaster for sure. I am apparently a 'super taster', one component of this means I have high sensitivity to bitterness, my other half isnt a 'super taster'.....she can tollorate bitterness much more than myself & struggles to find many nuances in wine and coffee


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Well you and I have discussed this already, and as I said to you before, the pour over coffee they prepared was also waaaay too strong. The subtleties of flavours were lost. It is almost as if the quest to find more and more flavour is missing the point. The confusing thing is that the 8 or so SO beans that were prepared for cupping were at a strength that in some cases was optimum to appreciate the flavours. The roaster had an impressive skill in describing the flavours, however preparing the same beans at a much higher strength in the pour over there was no way he could have distinguished the flavours he had earlier described. Interestingly, he has changed the blend of his espresso beans because other people had been saying the same sorts of things as me. ( I haven't tasted the new blend yet but it smells like dark chocolate)

The question of strength and dilution is an interesting one because as an espresso some of his blends were undrinkable, but in milk they were beautiful....because they were in effect diluted.

I still think that in an effort to distance themselves from the 'rules' and traditions set by the Italians, who in some respects claim ownership of espresso, and in discarding all the rules and starting with an open mind, some of what comes out of 'third wave' style roasters is crap as espresso. It may be fine diluted with milk, or water, but if diluted with water it begs the question as to why you would put it through an espresso machine in the first place.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Ok...So third day in as a newbie. Is there a way not to waste so many beans! or is it just practice. Sometimes finding difficult. I'm either under or over extracting. takes a few goes before getting it correct. then try another bag of beans and waste a load trying to get that right!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Could you describe the symptoms? What is happening that suggests you're over or under extracting? Is the flow too fast sometimes and too slow at other times? Are you using taste as a measure of over/under extraction, and if so, how do you know what over and under taste like?

If you can explain whats happening it might help point to why you're going thru so many beans


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

sometimes Im way under 20 seconds, not getting the mouses tail or a bright golden creme. and sometimes getting more yellow. Other times Im bang on...Just takes a few goes. Didn't realise how different times are with different beans. When I say loads of beans...its prob taking me 3 or 4 goes....dont know if thats normal.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Two things. a) 3 or 4 shots isnt bad for dialing in beans properly if you are changing beans rather than just moving to a new bag of the same stuff from the same roast date. All beans are different. To reduce waste, try sticking to the same beans for a while. b) Consistency. Comes back to the earlier advice. Weighing improves consistency, which in turn helps reduce bad shots and unnecessary/incorrect adjustments to the grind.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

I purchased some beans from extract...but thought I would get some beans from waitrose to practice on....But didn't realise how different times would be  I realise the extract are of much better quality! I have started weighing, saving a lot of beans...Just doing 18g for the moment. Really enjoying it....But its difficult as theres no one here to say if Im doing right or wrong. I guess I don't feel confident in what I'm doing.

You are right mike. I should stick to the same beans! makes sense! not making it easy for myself!


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Also with so many grind choices on the vario! I just don't know where to start. Do I start on the finest setting or be on the middle setting...then theres the micro settings!


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## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

I am part way through a couple of bags of extract.

I only started them when they were about a week old and my vario setting would have been macro to finest and then micro probably about 8 clicks down. Over the week, and as the beans have aged, i've need to grind a few clicks finer.

With 16g on a normal basket i'm getting about 24-26g in around 32seconds


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

cheers...So using the finest setting sounds about right then, as my extract is about a week old. If Im extracting at around 20-30 seconds, as a general rule I must be grinding on about the right settings...just need to fine tune


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## P.B (Jun 3, 2012)

To all who don't want to or can't be bothered to weigh the coffee before extracting it,

I hate dicking around just to get a cup of coffee and I've very intolerant of pointless "methods". However, weighing coffee is the one step that has made my extractions massively more consistent. I rarely have to adjust my grinder when working my way through a bag of coffee and even between different coffees the difference in grinder settings is markedly smaller. In my experience it's an effort worth making.

In my set-up I have a small pot on a scale underneath the chute of my Mini-E and I just press the button until I have the required amount in the pot and then I spoon it into the basket.

Paul


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## P.B (Jun 3, 2012)

Expobarista said:


> Dose, time and output weight are great because (assuming temp stability) they are at the nux of espresso making skill. Work to these and the grind will find itself.
> 
> On a personal level, I've had a conundrum answered for me recently through some barista training. I've been struggling to get an acceptable shot from the livelier blends that some roasters are offering. Despite having possessed and used a variety of espresso machines for twenty years I couldn't work out what technique I was failing to use. The question was answered when I prepared a shot for the roaster to try using the parameters I would expect to work, including visual cues.
> 
> ...


ROTFLMAO

That's why I can't buy from some of the UK's 'top' roasters!


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