# Which Baskets for Londinium R



## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

I have been using an 18g VST basket with the Londinium but I am finding that there is very little headroom with lighter roast beans in a lot of cases. To the point where I dosed 17.5g in and went to check if the screen had left a mark and it had the top 2mm of the puck stuck to it. What baskets are you all using and do you have any issues with headroom?

How much do you lot subscribe to the grind fine, tamp light mantra because when I do that it just exacerbates the issue with a lack of headroom.

One last thing. I have one of the espazzola cleaner chaps and I was using a 200u shower screen. I suddenly kept getting channelling in the same spot and after 2 shots I checked the shower screen and the espazzola seems to have damaged the mesh. Anyone else have this issue? Its the little plastic bumps in the middle of the espazzola that had done the damage.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Have you tried dropping the dose to 17.5g or even 17g and grinding finer?

I do get the same issue with VST 18g and 35um screen, but dropping the dose seems to work fine. I have VST 15g, but I don't think it solves the problem (yet to experiment with it).

FWIW IMS 200um and 35um baskets are same height:









No damage with espazolla, what do you mean by bits in the middle and what's the damage?


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Try a 15 Vst


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

No damage here from the Espazolla tool. Dosing 15.4g +- 0.2g / 15g basket / 36g +- 2g medium - medium/light roast fruity beans.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Thanks guys. Whats the rationale behind a 15g basket. Wouldn't that give less room above the coffee? I thought the LR was supposed to be able to use 18g or higher doses


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

When Reiss brought out the original LI, his dose recommendation was 15.5 - 16grms but that was tuned for his own roasts which were on the darker side of medium. Wouldn't recommend a 15grm basket unless you're drinking darker roasts. Am curious you are having problems with headroom using an 18grm VST. That's my go to basket which I dose at 18grm and don't have any problems headroom-wise.

As for the mantra, grind fine, tamp light - that's the way to go for the Londinium.


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## Snakehips (Jun 2, 2015)

@mctrials23 I would describe my usual roast level as predominately medium. I use a vst 18g basket which I often dose up at 19.5g, even 20g without having an issue with headspace. Obviously, grind fineness will impact upon the ability to do so but I don't feel that I am grinding unusually fine. As for tamping, by virtue of using a PuqPress I am getting a constant 10kg. Maybe a bit firmer than some might advocate? However, I reckon that 'tamp light' is maybe, not as necessary, with the LR, at higher PI levels, than it is with an old L1, pre-infusing at boiler pressure.

As for the shower screen, I use the 35µ, use an Espazzola after every shot and have experienced absolutely no damage. I find it hard to imagine how the Espazzola insert could do so. especially as the 200µ screen is far more robust than the 35?

A couple of maybe, silly questions......

Have you damaged the screen, accidentally, when trying to prise it off?

Are your showerscreen and seal properly seated?


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

I don't know if this makes sense but the distance from the bottom of the show screen to the very bottom of the grouphead lip is about 3-4mm. Shower screen and gasket are seated as well as they can be.

Definitely didn't damage the screen when removing it. I always use a spoon to get into the little ridge on the shower screen and gently prise from 3 or 4 places. Never touch the actual mesh.

You can see that the little plastic nubbins are worn down on my espazzola.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mctrials23 said:


> I have been using an 18g VST basket with the Londinium but I am finding that there is very little headroom with lighter roast beans in a lot of cases. To the point where I dosed 17.5g in and went to check if the screen had left a mark and it had the top 2mm of the puck stuck to it. What baskets are you all using and do you have any issues with headroom?
> 
> How much do you lot subscribe to the grind fine, tamp light mantra because when I do that it just exacerbates the issue with a lack of headroom.
> 
> One last thing. I have one of the espazzola cleaner chaps and I was using a 200u shower screen. I suddenly kept getting channelling in the same spot and after 2 shots I checked the shower screen and the espazzola seems to have damaged the mesh. Anyone else have this issue? Its the little plastic bumps in the middle of the espazzola that had done the damage.


 The mark the screen leaves is this before or after a shot ?


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

@Mrboots2u Before the shot. I wanted to see if it was making an impression on the puck and the puck stuck to the screen and broke off when I pulled the PF away.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Is the shower screen fully seated?


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Is the shower screen fully seated?


 Seems to be. The gasket is almost flush with the lip of the bit it goes in. Protrudes perhaps 0.5mm


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

I had the same issue when I got my original L1. With a VST18g I could only fit 16g in without hitting the screen. This was with both the 35 and 200. Checked using the 5p on the puck method and just under 16g was where I was. Coffees are medium roast level, not very light. With the older L1 there's a balance between dose and weight you get out so didn't want to go to a VST 20g. I now use a Londinium IMS basket, B702TFh26, which fits 17 to 17.5 before touching the screen. Getting a 1 to 2(ish) ratio out.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

I know the L1 didn't like big doses but the LR should be fine. Finding it a bit odd really.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Can we see a pic of the screen? Was it brand new when you bought it?

Even if I squash the membrane down it doesn't go below the level of the little red nubs. It's odd!


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

@MildredM It had been in use for about 9 months, first on the minima on and off and then about 3 weeks on the LR before it was ruined. I think I have thrown it out unfortunately otherwise I would put up a picture. There was a flake of red from the espazzola in the tear in the mesh though.


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## tohenk2 (Oct 11, 2017)

If for some other reason (wear?) the mesh was damaged, a tear in the mesh could point down and then damage the Espazzola (so the other way round as to cause and effect).

(I have seen a video somewhere that even a basket can break up from enough wear. And I have an IMS screen that was already damaged when I got it. Never used it.)


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I use an IMS B70 2T H26.5 M which was one of the earlier recommended ones. I think it's tolerance was stated at 16-20g? It takes doses of 18g-19g no problem at all, still plenty of headroom. I have a feeling Reiss later recommended a slightly similar one (poss B68?) which may be on the Londinium web shop. I'd happily recommend the one I used if you want some more headroom and will buy again.

I never use my espazzola to be honest, it doesn't seem to get very dirty in the group itself and I clean the screen and gasket every time I change coffee anyway.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

aaronb said:


> I never use my espazzola to be honest, it doesn't seem to get very dirty in the group itself and I clean the screen and gasket every time I change coffee anyway.


This is the bowl after cleaning with Espazzola. I cleaned/soaked the shower screen and gasket two days ago, cleaned with Espazzola yesterday and had 3 shots today. 
I haven't tried not to use Espazzola daily. I bet I couldn't tell the difference in taste, but I can't see it hurting to keep doing it.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

I have found that with the super fine mesh screens they are very easy to keep clean and nothing really gets behind them. The one that comes with the machine is quite a loose weave however and coffee easily gets behind it.

I always found that with the fine mesh screen (before it was damaged), flushing the screen without the PF would knock it out partially due to the pressure build up behind the screen. Are people just accepting this or is there a happy medium that doesn't let coffee behind the screen but doesn't provide an amount of resistance that causes the screen to dislodge on a flush?

Last question is how much grease are you all getting on the screen? I have had it for about a month and there is still new grease accumulating on the back of the screen.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Personally I'd whip the piston out, clean the excess grease off, and use detergent to really clean the screen. They always seem to have an excess of grease from the factory (is my view)!


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

PPapa said:


> Have you tried dropping the dose to 17.5g or even 17g and grinding finer?
> 
> I do get the same issue with VST 18g and 35um screen, but dropping the dose seems to work fine. I have VST 15g, but I don't think it solves the problem (yet to experiment with it).
> 
> ...


 On a side note to OPs topic, which of these two screens do you prefer @PPapa?


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

MildredM said:


> Personally I'd whip the piston out, clean the excess grease off, and use detergent to really clean the screen. They always seem to have an excess of grease from the factory (is my view)!


 Do you mean take the piston out entirely as in remove the 4 bolts and disassemble?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I've used the 30, IMS stock 200u and the Londinium 200u. I cant really fault any of them but the Londinium is my favourite. The extra holes seems to make a difference in even extraction.

I wouldn't expect grease to still be accumulating after a month, does sound like they used too much. Seconding Mildred's suggestion.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

mctrials23 said:


> Do you mean take the piston out entirely as in remove the 4 bolts and disassemble?


 Yes. I think they are 4mm Allen. Take care not to let the other end catch the front panel, of course


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

When undoing the four hex bolts, remember you are undoing the bolts upside down so you will be turning the Allen key clockwise as you look down on the group which is counter intuitive but actually undoing the bolts.

Undo the bolts bit by bit and diagonally until fully slack. Then you can undo the remainder of each bolt's thread without worry. When reassembling, tighten each bolt finger tight and then use the Allen key to tighten the bolts diagonally. You should only tighten pinch tight once you encounter resistance. Be careful not to overtighten as the thread in the group is brass and very soft so easy to strip the thread if you tighten aggressively. There is no seal involved where the piston assembly attaches to the group - you are only making sure the piston assembly isn't loose.


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

The Systemic Kid said:


> When undoing the four hex bolts, remember you are undoing the bolts upside down so you will be turning the Allen key clockwise as you look down on the group which is counter intuitive but actually undoing the bolts.


 This is very important OP!! I remember tightening mine by mistake the first time I did it 🙈


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

aaronb said:


> I've used the 30, IMS stock 200u and the Londinium 200u. I cant really fault any of them but the Londinium is my favourite. The extra holes seems to make a difference in even extraction.
> 
> I wouldn't expect grease to still be accumulating after a month, does sound like they used too much. Seconding Mildred's suggestion.


 Isn't Londi 35um? Cafelat does 200um with extra holes though:

https://www.cafelatstore.com/products/ims-screen



Fez said:


> On a side note to OPs topic, which of these two screens do you prefer @PPapa?


 Londinium 35um for sure, but I admit I won't be able to tell the difference if two shots were presented. Theoretically it should suck back less, it doesn't clog (for me) and the flow looks nice.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

PPapa said:


> Londinium 35um for sure, but I admit I won't be able to tell the difference if two shots were presented. Theoretically it should suck back less, it doesn't clog (for me) and the flow looks nice.


 Levers, like the Londinium, don't suck back - there isn't a solenoid.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Levers, like the Londinium, don't suck back - there isn't a solenoid.


Sorry, I didn't mean the solenoid - bad choice of words.

You still have the pressure and the shower screen resists enough to keep the coffee from going up the group. I'm not sure 200um or any other screen does this in any significant amount, hence "theoretically". Really, didn't mean this as a selling point, just like to think it keeps things tidy.


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

PPapa said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean the solenoid - bad choice of words.
> 
> You still have the pressure and the shower screen resists enough to keep the coffee from going up the group. I'm not sure 200um or any other screen does this in any significant amount, hence "theoretically". Really, didn't mean this as a selling point, just like to think it keeps things tidy.


 So in terms of extraction would you say they're on par with each other?

My 35um has been damaged, gouged it by mistake when trying to take it off. And Reiss is out of stock and doesn't know when they'll be coming back in. So that's why I thought I'd ask as I wanted to know if I should wait for them or just go ahead and order the 200um


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

PPapa said:


> You still have the pressure and the shower screen resists enough to keep the coffee from going up the group. I'm not sure 200um or any other screen does this in any significant amount, hence "theoretically". Really, didn't mean this as a selling point, just like to think it keeps things tidy.


 Not sure that's correct. A shower screen, by itself, has no impact on preventing coffee being sucked up into the group. As I understand it, this is a consequence of back pressure associated with the operation of a solenoid which levers don't have.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Fez said:


> So in terms of extraction would you say they're on par with each other?
> 
> My 35um has been damaged, gouged it by mistake when trying to take it off. And Reiss is out of stock and doesn't know when they'll be coming back in. So that's why I thought I'd ask as I wanted to know if I should wait for them or just go ahead and order the 200um


I honestly doubt I could tell the difference in taste, but I haven't used a 200um screen for a long time. Let me spend a day or two and I'll get back to you.

It's one of those things, like 58.4mm vs 58.55mm tampers. Various hypotheses claim that one is better than the other, but for how many it is the limiting factor? Does it ever feel bad to use an inferior-appearing tool that suddenly makes you feel missing out?

Not saying we should ditch burr grinders and get a pestle and mortar instead, but it's healthy to realise that we don't need to create problems that don't exist. I have a hunch the shower screen debate is exactly like that, but the 35um one just feels so damn good.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Fez said:


> So in terms of extraction would you say they're on par with each other?
> 
> My 35um has been damaged, gouged it by mistake when trying to take it off. And Reiss is out of stock and doesn't know when they'll be coming back in. So that's why I thought I'd ask as I wanted to know if I should wait for them or just go ahead and order the 200um


 You could always buy the non Londiumum 200um? It's just missing the holes in the centre of the screen IIRC.


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

aaronb said:


> You could always buy the non Londiumum 200um? It's just missing the holes in the centre of the screen IIRC.


 The holes in the centre of the screen are important on a lever.(so I've read, can't speak from experience)

Cafalet do the correct 200um screen..


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## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

I use the standard 200um screen with no problems, I prefer it over the 35um screen. Maybe it makes more of a difference with the LR.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Quick update, I ordered an 18g IMS basket when I ordered the wireless dongle and that seems to be much better. Its a good bit deeper than the VST and the lip doesn't seem to protrude quite as much at the top. Im quite amazed that the two baskets are rated at the same dose.

Seems that I need to put 20g into the IMS otherwise its a bit of a nightmare. It would push through a load of super watery coffee while the puck would wet through normally and you would end up with a weird situation where there were almost 2 extractions happening. One was nice and thick and wetted across the puck as it should and the other happened mainly at the start and was basically water.


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## lucasd (Feb 24, 2015)

My findings of IMS vs VST (on pump machine) was that capacity of IMS is totally useless indicator.

From your description IMS must be equivalent of VST 20 or larger.

In LR I almost always use 17.5g of lightly roasted coffee (e.g. La cabra) and have no problems. 18g is usually fine too


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## Dunk (Mar 26, 2015)

mctrials23 said:


> Quick update, I ordered an 18g IMS basket when I ordered the wireless dongle and that seems to be much better. Its a good bit deeper than the VST and the lip doesn't seem to protrude quite as much at the top. Im quite amazed that the two baskets are rated at the same dose.
> 
> Seems that I need to put 20g into the IMS otherwise its a bit of a nightmare. It would push through a load of super watery coffee while the puck would wet through normally and you would end up with a weird situation where there were almost 2 extractions happening. One was nice and thick and wetted across the puck as it should and the other happened mainly at the start and was basically water.


 Thats interesting i've been dosing 17.5g-18g in the IMS and not getting the results i want from the machine. I wonder if this could be partly the cause.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mctrials23 said:


> Quick update, I ordered an 18g IMS basket when I ordered the wireless dongle and that seems to be much better. Its a good bit deeper than the VST and the lip doesn't seem to protrude quite as much at the top. Im quite amazed that the two baskets are rated at the same dose.
> 
> Seems that I need to put 20g into the IMS otherwise its a bit of a nightmare. It would push through a load of super watery coffee while the puck would wet through normally and you would end up with a weird situation where there were almost 2 extractions happening. One was nice and thick and wetted across the puck as it should and the other happened mainly at the start and was basically water.


 Ive never been convinced by the larger dose tolerances that are communicated with the IMS baksets TBH


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

When IMS baskets were launched with the predictable new product hype - greatest thing since slice bread, yadder, yadder, gave them a go. Not pleased with the results. That said, was having occasional difficulties with VSTs. Went back to VST, tweaked my barista technique - stirring grinds - distribution tool and very light tamp resulting in boringly consistent pours with extraction yields in the 22% ball park with 1:2 - 1:2.5 ratios. Occasionally updose the 18grm basket to 18.5 - 19grms with no extraction problems.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Seems bizarre that I am struggling so much with getting even 17g in the VST basket. What are you guys actually doing when you say a very light tamp. Are we talking rest the tamper on the grinds. Some people say they are doing it using 2 fingers on the tamperwhich doesn't help at all. I can tamp with 0 pressure or probably 50lbs of pressure with 2 fingers quite easily.

The only way I could get the VST to hold even 17g of a lighter roast was with a really firm tamp to give me that headroom.


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## lucasd (Feb 24, 2015)

Where does yours empty portafillter locks in?

Is it around 6 o'clock or earlier? Try to reseat the shower screen (and clean it too).

There is chance that you tamp too lightly, I also noticed before when I did light tamp uneven water from shower could make channel (my screen tend to clog easily).

Currently using force tamper and have no problems with channels and default setting gives slightly more headspace (17.5 before was not a problem).


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

mctrials23 said:


> What are you guys actually doing when you say a very light tamp.


 First use a distribution then light tamp with a Pergatamp - don't apply any pressure to the handle - thumb and first finger either side of the shaft.


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