# Do I need a machine that can give me more steam?????



## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

That is a quandry that I find myself in. Basically I am finding it quite difficult to get enough steam to texturise my milk. Have been looking at numerous Youtube videos and have even invested in an Espro Toroid jug, but even then my results are very hit and miss.

Failing that is there a technique that I can use to get the maximum amount of steam out of my Classic as it is becoming a bit of an irritant. Maybe one time out of ten i'll get wonderful lush, creamy microfoam and the other nine times it is ok, but not fantastic.

I am doing everything else right. Cold milk. Cold jug. As I say, on the odd occasion I manage to nail it but then the next few times it goes pear shaped.

Help

Frustrated of Halifax

xx


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2014)

dont worry we can help you xxx


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

I had the same issue with my classic mate. Single boiler and simply not enough umpff to get the job done. I found that it always seemed to run out at the crucial point.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Your machine has the silvia arm ? The classics draw back will be the the amount of time it takes to steam but should be able to produce a good quality microfoam. I would say stick with it , practice practice practice . Perhaps with water and washing up liquid ?

If will be perfecting your technique that counts , a machine will more steam means that it will steam it quicker , but the technique should essentially remain the same ..The frustrating bit will be how long It takes !


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## spune (Oct 3, 2011)

The technique I used was to click on the steam, wait maybe 6 seconds, then open up the steam knob. That way the machine will continue to cycle producing steam without turning off the boiler. Is that what you do at the moment?

Does that make sense?


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

How much milk are you frothing on each occasion? My comment is based on producing two Capps


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

There's definitely enough steam to create microfoam.......slowly. Try the temp surf technique above and that usually does the trick. Check out some of c_squared latte art from the comps or free pour friday. His is a standard classic with sylvia wand. I have a pid on mine that boosts the steam nicely but without good technique it will not work. Practice, practice, practice.


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

No. I have been purging while on the light. I recall reading somewhere that to get as much welley as possible wait for the light to go out as that means that the boiler is heating again at that point. All the light indicates is that it has reached temperature??? is that correct?????


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Neill said:


> There's definitely enough steam to create microfoam.......slowly. Try the temp surf technique above and that usually does the trick. Check out some of c_squared latte art from the comps or free pour friday. His is a standard classic with sylvia wand. I have a pid on mine that boosts the steam nicely but without good technique it will not work. Practice, practice, practice.


Yep forgot Colin used a classic ,,he does great milk and art on his


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

Yeah. I am making two small cappos. One for me and one for my wife. I have the Toroid milk jug which has markers on the side, so I can get the right amount of milk measured out.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

m4lcs67 said:


> No. I have been purging while on the light. I recall reading somewhere that to get as much welley as possible wait for the light to go out as that means that the boiler is heating again at that point. All the light indicates is that it has reached temperature??? is that correct?????


The trick is to not let the light come on in the first place. That means the boiler never reaches temp but keeps the element on. If it comes on then you purge it can cycle.


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

Just as a matter of interest. By practicing with the water and washing up liquid. How much to you add to the water??? Much better idea otherwise I am going to be ending up chucking a shed load of milk.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

m4lcs67 said:


> Just as a matter of interest. By practicing with the water and washing up liquid. How much to you add to the water??? Much better idea otherwise I am going to be ending up chucking a shed load of milk.


Smallest drop you can ......


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

Thanks Mr Boots. I'll give it a try now as the Gaggia is warmed up and ready for action. I have to nail this once and for all.


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## spune (Oct 3, 2011)

Neill said:


> The trick is to not let the light come on in the first place. That means the boiler never reaches temp but keeps the element on. If it comes on then you purge it can cycle.


This is what I was meaning!


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

m4lcs67 said:


> That is a quandry that I find myself in. Basically I am finding it quite difficult to get enough steam to texturise my milk. Have been looking at numerous Youtube videos and have even invested in an Espro Toroid jug, but even then my results are very hit and miss.
> 
> Failing that is there a technique that I can use to get the maximum amount of steam out of my Classic as it is becoming a bit of an irritant. Maybe one time out of ten i'll get wonderful lush, creamy microfoam and the other nine times it is ok, but not fantastic.
> 
> ...


Malc I think you answered your own question in the last sentence, -----manage to nail it then pear shaped. Providing you are not trying to steam too much milk you are getting it correct at times, it sounds as if you just need to practice and perfect your technique. The Classics are limiting on the amount you can steam but good results are possible.

I think you just want an excuse to upgradeits:coffee:


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Smallest drop you can ......


I'd really like to see the results from a large squirt!


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

My classic has the Auber PID which is supposed to kick the heater on almost as soon as you open the steam valve. I steam 250ml at a time (bottom of spout on my happy donkey jug) and I find that I can get what looks like perfect glossy paint-like milk with no bubbles. It can't be quite right for latte art as somehow the microfoam sits on top when I attempt 'art' but I don't run out of steam. It does take longer on the classic though compared to all these videos showing you how to steam on a commercial machine of course!


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

hotmetal said:


> My classic has the Auber PID which is supposed to kick the heater on almost as soon as you open the steam valve. I steam 250ml at a time (bottom of spout on my happy donkey jug) and I find that I can get what looks like perfect glossy paint-like milk with no bubbles. It can't be quite right for latte art as somehow the microfoam sits on top when I attempt 'art' but I don't run out of steam. It does take longer on the classic though compared to all these videos showing you how to steam on a commercial machine of course!


Is the foam separated from the milk? Try stretching for less and whirlpool for more. May also be to do with pour height or how quickly you pour.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Thanks again Neill. I'm trying to run before I can walk with latte art but I love the mouthfeel of espresso-based milk drinks so I figured a bit of practice wouldn't hurt. There's probably more that I'm doing wrong in terms of pour but as far as the milk goes I think I've been stretching too long. The fact that the Classic takes a bit longer probably works in my favour for getting it right. Will try a shorter stretch tomorrow.


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

Anyone thought of adding a switch to the classic to bypass the steam thermostat? Perhaps for safety adding a time delay relay with a 30s timer to avoid overheating? That way you could press the button and ensure the boiler is continuously heating whilst you steam.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

My advice is stop woffling and upgrade immediately. You know you want to! If you are serious then you will nee dto upgrade anway before too long if you have outgrown your machine. Set a budget and buy something else!


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

:-D

In that same parallel universe I already have a Mythos and an L1...

THUD! As financial reality hits.


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## Mouse (Feb 28, 2014)

Surely Malc is better mastering his classic before he moves on to something else.. He's only had it a few months!


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## muddy250 (May 21, 2014)

Interesting thread as I'm in the same boat. Sometimes perfect wet paint milk sometimes it separates. Think I need to pay more attention to the timing of the steam switch as I have felt it run out of steam a few times. When I get it right it's quite fast. Practice!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I swear some people on here have shares in all the big machines!


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

If you want an excuse to upgrade, just do it. But don't let people think you can't steam on the classic. You're going to have to learn to do it well on a classic or a new machine.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Neill said:


> If you want an excuse to upgrade, just do it. But don't let people think you can't steam on the classic. You're going to have to learn to do it well on a classic or a new machine.


Agree with above , a bigger more expensive machine won't make steaming milk easier or magically better .

It will allow to do more milk faster and at the same time as making espresso

If you want a new machine get one but don't be under the illusion it will make up for lack of practice or technique ( with the exception of the sage oracle perhaps )


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I think you may just be trying to do too much milk... The classic is very much a one drink wonder.

I have a carezza which has the same boiler. I flick the steam switch, wait a few seconds and then purge and start steaming while it's heating up, you get the most bang for your buck out of that method and I usually end up with pretty good milk.

I'm only doing enough for a single flat white though, and that's pushes the limits of the small boiler. Any more than enough milk for one drink and you haven't got a chance.


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

I make enough milk for a couple of small cappos, but perhaps I need to start steaming as per shrink's instructions rather than waiting for the light to come on (as this signifies that it is at temp and the boiler element is off).


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

Just as a matter of interest, What would others recommend as an upgrade domestic machine which would give more steaming power? Something with a larger boiler I suppose?


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

shrink said:


> I think you may just be trying to do too much milk... The classic is very much a one drink wonder.


I don't quite agree with that. Its true repeatability is an issue for an espresso shot but I have no trouble steaming milk.

Within the last 10 minutes I have just steamed 350 mls milk in a Teflon jug which is enough for 2 cappas for this mornings coffee break


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

m4lcs67 said:


> Just as a matter of interest, What would others recommend as an upgrade domestic machine which would give more steaming power? Something with a larger boiler I suppose?


Without knowing now much money you want to spend of whether it's new or old then that a fairly vague question to try and answer and might be worth a new thread ....


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I'd do the two lots of milk separately really. A classic won't steam enough milk for two 6oz drinks. It'll just wither and run out of puff.

Mine starts to dwindle at the end of my process but at that point I'm just raising the temperature, so it's ok. But definitely wouldn't have enough oomph to get a good swirl going on twice as much milk.

I use a little 12 oz pitcher


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

You can steam up to about 10-12oz milk on the classic, but there is no room for error. A rancilio silvia has a bigger boiler and steams better, but it's hardly a big enough jump to justify it being double the price (used). It's also still a single boiler machine, so making more than one drink at a time is prohibitive. Personally I'd stick with the classic, otherwise save up and fork out for an HX or DB machine, I wouldn't bother looking for a stop gap between the two.... That's just my personal opinion.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

muddy250 said:


> Interesting thread as I'm in the same boat. Sometimes perfect wet paint milk sometimes it separates. Think I need to pay more attention to the timing of the steam switch as I have felt it run out of steam a few times. When I get it right it's quite fast. Practice!


I get the same too with the foam separating, this is on a bigger machine so think it might be down an issue with the user


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Yeah, last time round I went from my carezza straight to a cherub. An Oscar was also a consideration, but without the hot water tap, it was more of a pain to descale and maintain. I also wasn't keen on the plastic.

If I could do it again, I'd probably spend the extra £100 and get the entry level Expobar HX as I think it is a more complete product, better drip tray, better looks, proper lever E61 rather than the switches on the cherub.

Second hand, plenty HX machines for sensible money.


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## muddy250 (May 21, 2014)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I get the same too with the foam separating, this is on a bigger machine so think it might be down an issue with the user


Yep. I made two this am. One perfect. Half an hour later. Rubbish.  it'll come.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

This is the closest i have been with my attempt at latte art on the classic, just cant get the milk right either, but then i dont try that hard.


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

I am using a 12oz Toroid now, so the volume of milk I am trying to steam is not huge. Using the markers on the side of the jug I don't fill it right up. I set it two marker lines below the top one (whatever that is in fluid oz).


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

Another thing that also occurred to me was the fact that it must be a very fine balancing act with regards to how much milk you steam, over getting the job done before the machine runs out of welley? Too little milk and it will get to temp before you have finished texurising. Too much milk and it will run out of power before the job is done. I'm sure there is little margin for error.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Unless you're steaming a thimble full of milk the first point is a non issue


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## jcheung (Mar 11, 2014)

seeq said:


> A rancilio silvia has a bigger boiler and steams better, but it's hardly a big enough jump to justify it being double the price (used). It's also still a single boiler machine, so making more than one drink at a time is prohibitive. Personally I'd stick with the classic, otherwise save up and fork out for an HX or DB machine, I wouldn't bother looking for a stop gap between the two.... That's just my personal opinion.


First of all my caveat is that I've never used a Classic so this is my experience from using a Rancilio Silvia, also a single boiler.

I would not agree that a single boiler machine can only handle one drink at a time. I generally make two on my Silvia, sometimes three. Four/Five is pushing it a little though but I have done and it is possible. I would agree that the OP should stick with the Classic and work on technique rather than upgrade. If he decides to upgrade, then a DB or HX would be the logical path rather than something like the Silvia.

I start steaming when the boiler temp reaches 112C which is well below the steam temp cutoff (similar to Spune's technique I would think). It means the boiler stays on until the milk is steamed and does not switch off. Using a 750ml jug, I can steam enough for up to four flat whites (5oz cups) although if I'm making a single, I'll generally use a smaller jug.

Steaming small amounts of milk is the same as steaming with more. It just that it heats up a lot quicker so you have less time so getting your technique right is important. It only takes seconds (I've not timed it though but it is quick) using a small jug on the Silvia.

On a more powerful machine, I would expect technique to be just as (if not more) important as it would heat milk much quicker.


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

Perhaps if there is a finer nozzle to fit the silvia wand then would that help by giving more pressure to the steam that is exiting or am I clutching at straws? Maybe by reducing the size of the nozzle would it potentially cause problems with building the steam pressure up too high as I assume that the Classics are designed to be able to take certain pressures before things start to blow off and damage is caused to the machine?


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## RazorliteX (Mar 2, 2014)

I don't want to ask the obvious but are you "sucking in the air" before dunking the steam wand right into the milk? For the first few seconds only put the tip of the steam wand about a .5 centimetre in get some air into the milk.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

m4lcs67 said:


> Perhaps if there is a finer nozzle to fit the silvia wand then would that help by giving more pressure to the steam that is exiting or am I clutching at straws? Maybe by reducing the size of the nozzle would it potentially cause problems with building the steam pressure up too high as I assume that the Classics are designed to be able to take certain pressures before things start to blow off and damage is caused to the machine?


I'm afraid you're clutching at straws, unnecessarily. I'm afraid you're just gonna have to practice. We've said it before. It's a tried and tested piece of kit and plenty can get consistent milk results with it.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

There's a vid of someone steaming on a classic somewhere on the forum. Would be worth checking out.


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## old soul song (May 21, 2014)

Interested to see where this thread goes as I'm in the exact same boat Malc. Classic + Silvia wand = crap milk. Just cannot get it right after countless experiments!


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Here's the vid http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=12108


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

I tried posting a link to the thread but it's gone to moderation. Check out the video sub forum and there's a thread about steaming on a classic.


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## Mouse (Feb 28, 2014)

Have we got any videos of a classic owner steaming milk/creating some latte art for inspiration for these struggling owners?

Edit - Neils suggested a good place to start looking


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

Search YouTube. There is a few videos

I can make latte art easily with my classic. It's not perfect but that's down to technique. However... I do this steaming up to 5oz in a 12oz jug. I can get two lattes from a double shot and 10oz milk steamed in a 20oz jug and make latte art from that but it is a little hit an miss. Anymore than that and it just doesn't have the power.

The problem with making multiple drinks on any single boiler non HX machine (especially if using double shots in each drink) is that by the time you've weighed out, ground, tamped and poured for the second drink, the first has cooled and lost crema before you even start thinking about the milk. You can't do the milk in between because then you'd have to wait for the boiler to cool, you'd never get anywhere near a stable brew temp.

In theory as you could only realistically pour two drinks at once, and you can steam enough milk for both then there is no problem with the classic. You only need to upgrade if you are making more than two drinks regularly.

For reference mines a 2001 classic with silvia wand.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Neill said:


> Here's the vid http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=12108


Bump this got stuck in moderation


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## muddy250 (May 21, 2014)

My milk looks like that or creamier but it's my pouring that lets me down. I'm too tentative by the looks. Coffee is damn good tho! 

BTW and OT the Graef grinder is a belter for the money. Can easily choke the classic and it's got another 8 notches before zero. Very impressive.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Getting the right amount of flow is tricky - too little and you just too much foam which sits on the surface - too fast and the milk dives under the surface. It's just a case of practise, practise. Watch the training videos carefully. The pour starts with the jug a reasonable height above the cup (held at an angle) - when the cup is half full, bring the jug down so the side is almost touching the cup and begin the wiggle gently levelling the cup as you do. Always, always keep the pour in the middle of the cup - don't be tempted to move it - the rings will appear. Flow rate must remain the same throughout so you get a good mixture of milk and foam.


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

this has been sat for a couple of minutes, not a brilliant attempt (down to technique), but it can be done with a gaggia classic and silvia wand!


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

That's a 12oz mug. Double espresso with about 9oz milk steamed in a 20oz jug.


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

It is so frustrating this milk texurising malarkey. Like so many other coffee related things. Getting everything coming together takes an unbelievable amount of practice. Just this morning I prepped everything as normal to make my wife and I a cappo and lo and behold my milk came out like a dream, so I DO know that it can be done and also on the Classic. it is just so annoying that for every 10 attempts I may get a couple that are bang on, but even then there is no indication as to when it decides to play the game. Arrrgh!!!!!!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

When they " go wrong " what's the matter with them.? You need to take a clip or something, as other classic owners have indicated you can get good consistent milk from it.....


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## muddy250 (May 21, 2014)

My last four have been good. Steam switch on, wait 20 seconds or so and go for it, before the light comes on.

I'm only steaming 4oz milk tho but turning the steam switch on after I have the milk waiting rather than straight after the shot has helped a lot.

Still can't do art but the coffee tastes great!









Closest I ever got. I'm just settling for coffee now.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Good definition between coffee and milk tho ..nice smooth milk too


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## muddy250 (May 21, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Good definition between coffee and milk tho ..nice smooth milk too


When it works it works.  Just need to work on getting it to go where I want but like I say, the taste is great and the milk is great when I hit it.

More often than not now. It's just practice isn't it. It's costing me a packet in testing!

Speaking of which, wifey told me today she has amazon prime now. Rave sell on amazon so free shipping! Italian job is £12 a kilo shipped!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Be wary of using Amazon for coffee. It may have been storer on their shelf for weeks as opposed to fresh roasted from rave direct


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I ordered from Amazon yesterday as I had forgotten to anticipate running out of coffee, and needed something that had already been rested ^_^

I think you will save a pound or two if you have Amazon Prime, but remember its always better for the retailer to go to them direct, no cut for Amazon and Rave participate in paying their taxes.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

D_Evans said:


> I ordered from Amazon yesterday as I had forgotten to anticipate running out of coffee, and needed something that had already been rested ^_^
> 
> I think you will save a pound or two if you have Amazon Prime, but remember its always better for the retailer to go to them direct, no cut for Amazon and Rave participate in paying their taxes.


And there have been instances of people receiving coffee 4-8 weeks post roast that amazon store on their shelf ready for prime orders .

Doesn't always happen but might


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> And there have been instances of people receiving coffee 4-8 weeks post roast that amazon store on their shelf ready for prime orders .
> 
> Doesn't always happen but might


Got my fingers crossed!

Going to be miffed if I get 1kg of 8 week old sig blend -_-

(missed the bit about prime... hopefully my cheapo super saver delivery choice will mean I get some that has been nicely rested for a week or so







)


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Someone did post a little while ago that the rave beans they got via the tax dodgers were within a weeks roasting, so maybe you will get lucky!


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