# How long will we need baristas?



## audio2 (Feb 12, 2015)

Computers can now beat us at chess, is it coffee next?

http://www.gizmag.com/robot-barista-cornell/37070/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=ae45271c02-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-ae45271c02-90749897


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Never, to many variables!


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

No. I think this guy will leap frog the whole computer-barista movement. Really think he's on to something.

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=23412


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Robots will never replace skilled baristas in the same way that they'll never replace a skilled surgeon.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Scotford said:


> Robots will never replace skilled baristas in the same way that they'll never replace a skilled surgeon.


Robots replacing a skilled surgeon is something that is actually very likely to happen.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Dylan said:


> Robots replacing a skilled surgeon is something that is actually very likely to happen.


Really? I think I'd much prefer a person.

I mean that a robot, however sentient, won't have the ability to problem solve should a difficulty they've never encountered arise.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Scotford said:


> Really? I think I'd much prefer a person.
> 
> I mean that a robot, however sentient, won't have the ability to problem solve should a difficulty they've never encountered arise.


A robot probably won't make an arse of things because they're hungover/tired etc

Don't see a problem with it for routine surgeries


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Scotford said:


> Really? I think I'd much prefer a person.
> 
> I mean that a robot, however sentient, won't have the ability to problem solve should a difficulty they've never encountered arise.


It's perfectly possible, and it certainly does't fall into the 'never' camp. I would say they are more likely to replace surgeons than baristas as there is no customer service to worry about and a whole heck of a lot more money going in to the research.

Robots like the da Vinci Surgical System are already used widely as an assistant to surgeons, the surgeon controls the robot as it is able to maintain perfect dexterity whilst wielding multiple instruments.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> A robot probably won't make an arse of things because they're hungover/tired etc
> 
> Don't see a problem with it for routine surgeries


There is that, yes.

Routine, sure. But for a high complexity situation where lots can go wrong?

Are the two not similar in concept to an everyday cafe barista slinging low level shots and a highly trained one making to a super high standard.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Scotford said:


> Routine, sure. But for a high complexity situation where lots can go wrong?


Human in charge then for sure


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Dylan said:


> Robots like the da Vinci Surgical System are already used widely as an assistant to surgeons, the surgeon controls the robot as it is able to maintain perfect dexterity whilst wielding multiple instruments.


That is still a person utilising a tool/set of tools. Much like a person using a high end set of grinders, spro machines and scales.


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## Vieux Clou (Oct 22, 2014)

Well, a spoilt espresso isn't a Mars probe going splatter, it's part of the learning experience. (Well, so were the multiple Mars splatters but for the engineers, not for the probes.)

I'd guess that the Cornell guys aren't really aiming at a perfect espresso but at a competent robot.

BTW, "however sentient" includes humans. I should think a robot with good evolutive programming should be able to back-track to the point it went wrong, just like humans. This might be worth watching in future.

WRT replacing baristas, Saeco & C° have been producing their bean-to-cup machines for yonks, but baristas haven't gone away. Ref. the robot barman in The Fifth Element.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Scotford said:


> That is still a person utilising a tool/set of tools. Much like a person using a high end set of grinders, spro machines and scales.


I would say they are vastly different, and barely analogous.

But regardless, with technology advancing at its current rate, it is very likely that robots will one day replace humans in such life or death situations, they are already much better at some parts, they just need to catch up with the rest.

But even if you don't buy that it is very likely, at the very least it is at least possible, to say it will never happen is to ignore the lessons of that past.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Yeah I guess never was a bit of a bold statement. I take it back. The advances in AI will still have to be momentous to be able to do the job of a human brain in these situations though.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

A robot is lacking one major part though, taste buds!


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> A robot is lacking one major part though, taste buds!


Bingo!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Vieux Clou said:


> WRT replacing baristas, Saeco & C° have been producing their bean-to-cup machines for yonks, but baristas haven't gone away. Ref. the robot barman in The Fifth Element.


Isn't that more because bean-to-cups offer low faff, passable quality for mass market, at a low price (relatively speaking)...a snazzy looking box in the kitchen, press a button or two, compared to giving up your spare room & fridge space for a live-in barista & grinder, semi-automatic etc? ;-)

The technology probably already exists, just getting it down to a reasonable price point...you'd still need a barista to sanity check/QC.

We've had 'robot' filter brewers for decades. Repeating actions consistently would seem to be in a robot's favour...now getting a robot to dance, that's where the real challenge is!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

MWJB said:


> Isn't that more because bean-to-cups offer low faff, passable quality for mass market, at a low price (relatively speaking)...a snazzy looking box in the kitchen, press a button or two, compared to giving up your spare room & fridge space for a live-in barista & grinder, semi-automatic etc? ;-)
> 
> The technology probably already exists, just getting it down to a reasonable price point...you'd still need a barista to sanity check/QC.
> 
> We've had 'robot' filter brewers for decades. Repeating actions consistently would seem to be in a robot's favour...now getting a robot to dance, that's where the real challenge is!


I'm always a bit dumbfounded when I go to a services and I see someone using the Costa Express machine in WHSmiths, right across from Costa.

When I first saw that arrangement I thought someone at Costa HQ was smoking the wrong shit, but I guess they know the level of coffee and human interaction some their customers are happy with.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Wifey had a coffee from one of those Costa express machines at the weekend, tasted so bland it was unreal, if we were not 10 miles away in the car by the time she realized how crap it was, we would have took it back and threw it at the machine.


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> A robot is lacking one major part though, taste buds!





Scotford said:


> Bingo!


Built in refractometer


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dylan said:


> I'm always a bit dumbfounded when I go to a services and I see someone using the Costa Express machine in WHSmiths, right across from Costa.
> 
> When I first saw that arrangement I thought someone at Costa HQ was smoking the wrong shit, but I guess they know the level of coffee and human interaction some their customers are happy with.


I'm not sure Costa have achieved the level of quality potentially available, whether through automated, or hands-on means. They're unlikely to be pushing the boundaries & developing what would be a very expensive machine, when they can rake it in, doing what they already do.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> Built in refractometer


Does that guarantee a great tasting coffee though?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Wifey had a coffee from one of those Costa express machines at the weekend, tasted so bland it was unreal, if we were not 10 miles away in the car by the time she realized how crap it was, we would have took it back and threw it at the machine.


That would 'ave learnt it!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Does that guarantee a great tasting coffee though?


If the rest of the prep is up to snuff, yes.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

MWJB said:


> If the rest of the prep is up to snuff, yes.


This is another one of those 'taste is subjective' matters, no?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Scotford said:


> This is another one of those 'taste is subjective' matters, no?


I think so.... Now wondering if this is going to turn into a spock meter thread....


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Scotford said:


> This is another one of those 'taste is subjective' matters, no?


Taste is subjective, but perhaps more in the respect that individuals might decide to highlight certain characteristics as a personal preference, but a broader high preference range can still please the majority, at a high quality level.

Let me ask you, do you dial in, get the coffee tasting good, consistent, then try and keep in there? Or, do you weigh up each customer, "Aha! You look like a 16% man, madam I'm going to make you a 21% shot...!?


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## Vieux Clou (Oct 22, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> Does that guarantee a great tasting coffee though?


I doubt if the Cornell boys are teaching it to dial in a grinder.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> I think so.... Now wondering if this is going to turn into a spock meter thread....


EY measurement is older than you are. ;-)


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

MWJB said:


> "Aha! You look like a 16% man, madam I'm going to make you a 21% shot...!?


I reckon I could spot a 30%+ person if I had to.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

MWJB said:


> EY measurement is older than you are. ;-)


Taste is even older


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

I enjoy the small or lengthy conversation I have with someone who is preparing me a coffee, the friendly service is all part of the experience and can put you into a more happy relaxed comfort zone to enjoy your choice of cup.

At home I talk to myself or the dog as the kids and partner aren't so keen on the smell, noise or both while I prep. Still chilled though coffee quality is prob down a little on the any of the cafes I would choose to go in nowadays.

Either of the above is preferable to a computer based machine serving me my drink.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Taste is even older


What other forms of objective assessment of coffee vs taste are there? Taste & EY aren't competitors, they are complimentary.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

MWJB said:


> What other forms of objective assessment of coffee vs taste are there? Taste & EY aren't competitors, they are complimentary.


None, to be fair i have never used a spock meter, maybe i should rent the forum one and have a play.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sk8-bizarre said:


> Either of the above is preferable to a computer based machine serving me my drink.


Ha ha, now this isn't a dig at you, or anyone else...but logically, Markbot has a question?

Is it just the "computer based" aspect that troubles you? Consistency (hopefully) achieved through mechanical/analog means is OK/art/skill, but consistency achieved through digital circuitry is bad?

What if that computer based machine also had space invaders? Aha!









Espresso is already the most mechanised form of coffee making, the things that are generally considered to be improvements are based on greater consistency (temp control, pressure, preinfusion, observing coffee & water mass, reducing variation in prep, tighter tolerances).

Maybe some steampunk style espresso machine would be the killer, wood fired boiler, steam powered pestle & mortar, candles gently & naturally heating the grinds to 40C in the grinder, brass weights on a balance beam connected to the drip tray...


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)




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## simontc (May 21, 2014)

MWJB said:


> Maybe some steampunk style espresso machine would be the killer, wood fired boiler, steam powered pestle & mortar, candles gently & naturally heating the grinds to 40C in the grinder, brass weights on a balance beam connected to the drip tray...


Yes please


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## dorsetbloke (Apr 21, 2015)

Maybe there will be coffee vapour? In similar vein to the rise of e-cigarettes?


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