# V60 coffee tasting dry??



## rgoodcoffee (May 25, 2016)

Hi all,

I've been making v60 coffee recently with a bag of Yirg from James rosters, but the coffee has a very distinct 'dry' mouthful that hits at the back of the throat. Kind of like an overbrewed black tea w/o milk might taste. I'm also getting quite nicr acidity (grapefruit I'd say), but the dry-ness kinda overshadows everything else.

I'm using 288g of water into 18g of coffee. I'm pouring the water in about 3 doses, with a 40g 30sec bloom, and total brew time is around 3min 30sec. But the ground left over in the v60 look almost like a sludge, it's weird. Could this be because it's too fine? Do I need to grind coarser?

Thanks for any advice

Rory


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

I had the same a few days ago - here is the thread.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?37604-First-few-V60-s-nice-but-dry


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

If I recall correctly those beans were quite slow draining. Perhaps try pouring the water in one or two pours.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Try going a little coarser...also try not to hose down the bed, let the water fall straight down from the pouring kettle spout.


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

I'm trying 18g into 300g water today. Hope it doesn't go badly...


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

I tried 18g into 300g water today.

Yuck! Watery and a bit bitter, not a great taste at all. Tried a 12g one and all was well again. I'm sticking with 12g from now on I think...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Morningfuel said:


> I tried 18g into 300g water today.
> 
> Yuck! Watery and a bit bitter, not a great taste at all. Tried a 12g one and all was well again. I'm sticking with 12g from now on I think...


At the same ratio, dose & brew water shouldn't make that much difference until you get to really big brews.

As your brew gets bigger, at the same ratio & regime, it will take a little longer & need a coarser grind (sounds like your grind for 12g is too fine for whatever you are doing with 18g).

But if a 12g brew gives you a decent cup, then stick to that, as simply changing brew size without changing anything else will give you a different extraction. Also easier to memorise & troubleshoot if you are making the same size brews all the time...plus I use the same size cups all the time, so don't vary brew size much.

You could set the grind at the coarsest end for 12g (bloom 15g for 30sec, then 25g every 15sec, aiming 2:45-2:50 total time, plus drips), then see if you can hit good brews at 18g:300g by using larger & less frequent pours, aiming 3:40-ish? But I think this might just overcomplicate things?


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

Morningfuel said:


> I tried 18g into 300g water today.
> 
> Yuck! Watery and a bit bitter, not a great taste at all. Tried a 12g one and all was well again. I'm sticking with 12g from now on I think...


Maybe try a finer grind? I brewed those beans using 21 grams to 350 ml and had very enjoyable cups


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Sounds like overextraction to me,what is the temperature of the water?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Stanic said:


> Sounds like overextraction to me,what is the temperature of the water?


Can't be too hot. More likely too fine a grind/too long a brew time.


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

Back to 12g now and happy, but today a strange thing happened.

I've switched from the brown papers (which needed a rinse) back to hario white papers.

But it drained much slower - same grind as usual, 12g but it took an extra 40 seconds to drop through! I'm going to try pouring quicker, but I'm about to taste the cup and see how it is. The water only broke through the grounds at 3.35, usually I'm at drips at 2.50ish.


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

Hmm, not bad to be fair. A little less sweet and a bit less interesting tasting, but I wouldn't be unhappy with it. I wonder if I need to pour a little faster than the other papers.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Grind a little coarser, getting the water in the brewer at a certain rate is less important than the rate of flow through the bed, so grinding coarser (the paper is likely a more open weave & needs a coarser grind) will speed up the flow through the bed & normalise your brew time.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Check the code number on the white papers. If it ends with "W" then you have the quicker draining standard Japanese papers. If "H" then the slower draining dutch papers which ought to be closer to the brown ones you have been using.

Personally, I don't obsess over drain times. A useful guide to get you in the right area. You can't change the drain characteristics of the filter.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Step21 said:


> Personally, I don't obsess over drain times. A useful guide to get you in the right area. You can't change the drain characteristics of the filter.


Grinding coarser will speed up brew time for any given filter & coffee, as will adding water in significantly larger pulses. Indeed, brew time is not a precise determinant of your result, but across a range of coffees you should be able to get your V60s to +/-10-15sec for 2/3 of your brews & +/-5-10 sec for a given coffee & regime.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

I don't disagree. But when you change filter type adjusting the grind or pouring strategy to match the brew times for the previous filter type isn't necessarily going to work.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I only found an 18second average difference between V60 brews with Japanese papers and Chemex papers, enough to be significant but not in the realms of expecting brew to be in the order of minutes difference.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

I found around 20 secs between japanese and dutch papers and very little between the dutch and chemex. You could coarsen the grind to make the dutch brew times closer to the japanese and maybe it is worth trying if you don't like the brew. I prefer the longer brew on the dutch anyway. But I do recall a lot of people over on HB complaining about the change and how it impacted their standard recipe


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

Well, I just tried again, 6 clicks on grinder (rhinowares, same as ever) and 40g every 30 seconds, but poured quicker to give me an idea of time.

I'll try again later, but this only drained past the bed at about 3:30. They are Dutch papers. Previously with the brown ones it'd drain at 2:45 ish.

So, I'm going to try a click coarser and possibly pour faster. The coffee doesn't taste great - more bitter, less sweet and I think I'm going to put milk in!









I'll report back later when I've tried again.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Morningfuel said:


> Well, I just tried again, 6 clicks on grinder (rhinowares, same as ever) and 40g every 30 seconds, but poured quicker to give me an idea of time.
> 
> I'll try again later, but this only drained past the bed at about 3:30. They are Dutch papers. Previously with the brown ones it'd drain at 2:45 ish.
> 
> ...


When you say "pour faster" do you mean pour in larger pulses? Keep the pour regime the same/or larger pulses & wider intervals, just go coarser, otherwise you might end up chasing your tail, changing too many things at once.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

If you are pouring the same pulse quicker you'll be creating more turbulence and maybe kicking up more fines which might explain longer drain times?


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

Thanks for the tip. Same pouring as ever but this time, an extra click...

7 clicks on rhinowares grinder and 200g water, same as ever...

But this was in excess of 4 minutes - I'm considering trying a *plain* filter, pouring 200g into it dry and seeing how long it takes for one big pour with no coffee, then trying in 40g pours.

Taste wise, it's the hasbean imm yirgacheffe. It tastes... Okay. Not amazingly fruity - not at all what I'd expect tbh. It's a touch bitter, but there is sweetness.

Hmm. Perhaps another click coarser - I don't think I've ever gone to 8 clicks!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Morningfuel said:


> Thanks for the tip. Same pouring as ever but this time, an extra click...
> 
> 7 clicks on rhinowares grinder and 200g water, same as ever...
> 
> ...


Water alone won't really "see" the paper, all but a teaspoonful will drain through in seconds. You need to do this with the coffee as the small particles will somewhat clog the paper, affecting the drain time. The IMM Yirg seems to grind with a lot small particles (not unusual for Yirgs to takea long time to brew), I don't think this is necessarily a good coffee for dialing in, it will fall at the slower end (I had a 13 minute drip brew the other day, it wasn't great, but didn't technically over-extract). I think you might have hit the sweetness that there is already, it's not a particularly sweet coffee.


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Water alone won't really "see" the paper, all but a teaspoonful will drain through in seconds. You need to do this with the coffee as the small particles will somewhat clog the paper, affecting the drain time. The IMM Yirg seems to grind with a lot small particles (not unusual for Yirgs to takea long time to brew), I don't think this is necessarily a good coffee for dialing in, it will fall at the slower end (I had a 13 minute drip brew the other day, it wasn't great, but didn't technically over-extract). I think you might have hit the sweetness that there is already, it's not a particularly sweet coffee.


Neat. Actually, as it cooled more sweetness came out. Not the usual berry sweetness I expect of a yirg - it was a bit smokey almost, and had a good "coffee" flavour (sounds daft, but I think I know what I mean).

I thought it was okay to be honest, balanced tasting. The girlfriend tried one (brewed identically) with a bit of milk and enjoyed it. That'll do me


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

Still getting slow draining, across several coffees.

8 clicks on the grinder. Trying 10 doesn't seem to help...

The last filters I got were brown and had three little holes at the bottom. These ones are hario ones (Dutch) and do not.

It's bothering me a bit! I was super happy with my coffees but they're all coming out bitter and over extracted.

Any thoughts? I'm having the hasbean Salvador finca but I'm not getting amazing notes coming through so much as a bitter coffee with a hint of chocolate.

I could try grinding silly-coarse and see what 15 clicks does I suppose...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

How slow? If you know they're slow, you know how long they are taking. Grinding coarser will make them drain faster, so don't worry about the number of clicks, focus on the time & taste. The Finca Argentina can be chocolatey, caramel, with maybe an Appletize type zing?


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

MWJB said:


> How slow? If you know they're slow, you know how long they are taking. Grinding coarser will make them drain faster, so don't worry about the number of clicks, focus on the time & taste. The Finca Argentina can be chocolatey, caramel, with maybe an Appletize type zing?


40g in 30 second intervals cleared the bed at 5 minutes 5 seconds. So very slow indeed - previously I was getting 2 minutes 45.

I have cleaned my grinder to take that variable out (perhaps it was creating more fines than usual?) and I'm going to try 6 clicks again now to see if I can make it as close as possible to my previous method. I'll pour slowly and minimise disturbance and report back.


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

Following the above method, the bed cleared at 4 minutes 20 seconds (sorry, I typo'd above - it was 4 minutes 5 yesterday).

So it's quite a big way out from usual! Very weird.


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

In terms of tasting, I'm getting chocolate for sure, not so much caramel. There is no acidity coming through either. I don't doubt the tasting notes (I can practically smell them before the beans are even ground!) but the drink I'm getting tastes a little less sweet than I'd expect from something with these notes. It's drinkable, though.

I am wondering if it is the paper. It's the only variable I can think of that's changed - I tried it with some (now slightly stale) Kenyan peaberry I had stowed away, which drained perfectly in the brown filters with the three holes but took over 4 minutes in the white paper.

Very weird!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Morningfuel said:


> 40g in 30 second intervals cleared the bed at 5 minutes 5 seconds. So very slow indeed - previously I was getting 2 minutes 45.
> 
> I have cleaned my grinder to take that variable out (perhaps it was creating more fines than usual?) and I'm going to try 6 clicks again now to see if I can make it as close as possible to my previous method. I'll pour slowly and minimise disturbance and report back.


Isn't 6 clicks finer? This will make the brew take longer.


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Isn't 6 clicks finer? This will make the brew take longer.


I went back as a "start from scratch" with a clean grinder - so shortly (day off today!) I'm going to try 8 clicks and see how that compares. It should drain faster, but it'll be interesting to see how much faster. Basically, I've done it as a control as it was exactly as I set it before I changed filters. I'll post updates shortly.


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

I thought I'd try for a big change, and so used 9 clicks. Still same recipe, 12g coffee, 200g water.

Drained in 4 minutes total (to clear the top of the bed).

Taste wise, similar but better - certainly a chocolatey quality to the taste, not getting any caramel or apple acidity. It is certainly lighter tasting and more "open" rather than the slightly "congested" flavour I got on the first cup.

Describing taste is hard...


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

Morningfuel said:


> I thought I'd try for a big change, and so used 9 clicks. Still same recipe, 12g coffee, 200g water.
> 
> Drained in 4 minutes total (to clear the top of the bed).
> 
> ...


What is the coffee and what are its tasting notes? Whats your pouring recipe?


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

Elcee said:


> What is the coffee and what are its tasting notes? Whats your pouring recipe?


It's hasbean imm Argentina finca. Chocolate, caramel and an apple acidity.

I start with 25g bloom for 30 seconds with stir, then make up to 80g for 30 seconds, then pour 40g every 30 seconds. Typically, this used to give me a drain time of about 2.45 - 3 minutes on the brown papers, but the new Dutch papers (hario brand) seems to have slowed drain time considerably.


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

10 clicks got me to 3.38

So quite a big change. Seriously boulder looking grind, and a lot of boulders stuck to the sides of the paper to I may stir the surface at the 200g mark.

Taste wise - good chocolate and sweetness coming through, no apple acidity yet... But it almost seems slightly watery. I think I'll try this one again, see if maybe I poured onto the paper rather than the bed.

I'm not sure it's better than yesterday, but it's equally as drinkable. Perhaps the larger boulders are balancing with the slower drain for a better extraction?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Don't worry too much about pouring on to the paper, at each pour try and wash down the walls with part of the pour & with the last 2 pours you should be getting a gentle spin going.

Are you stirring the initial bloom (just needs a little dig down & wiggle).

If you think you are erring on the coarse side, break up the pulses into 30g x20sec, or 25g x15sec.


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Don't worry too much about pouring on to the paper, at each pour try and wash down the walls with part of the pour & with the last 2 pours you should be getting a gentle spin going.
> 
> Are you stirring the initial bloom (just needs a little dig down & wiggle).
> 
> If you think you are erring on the coarse side, break up the pulses into 30g x20sec, or 25g x15sec.


I'll give that a go this afternoon then!

Yup, I get a spin on the last two pours and don't shy away from washing the sides down, but the spin (which is gentle) seems to pick up a few boulders and stick them. Not awful though, it's a mostly clean paper.

Yup, I stir the bloom. I'll try smaller, more frequent pours and see how that goes. I'll stick with 8-9 clicks and see how that lands. Flavour wise, I've lost the muddiness and bitterness but it's now slightly (very slightly) watery, which the smaller pours should help with.

Thanks for your advice!


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

Make sure the water is temperature is high so use just water just off the boil and preheat the pouring kettle if you're heating in another one.


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Don't worry too much about pouring on to the paper, at each pour try and wash down the walls with part of the pour & with the last 2 pours you should be getting a gentle spin going.
> 
> Are you stirring the initial bloom (just needs a little dig down & wiggle).
> 
> If you think you are erring on the coarse side, break up the pulses into 30g x20sec, or 25g x15sec.


Okay, so 9 clicks still, 25g bloom for 30 seconds followed by 25g every 15 seconds. Total time until bed cleared, 4 minutes 5 seconds. Those last 30-40 seconds, the bed drains painfully slow...

But, taste is what counts! And in that respect.... It's not bad. Still a hair watery tasting, but the cocoa flavour is there in abundance, and it's sort of sweet - burnt caramel perhaps, rather than caramel. No apple zing yet, but as it cools it may yet be revealed.

I'm still not absolutely happy - I wonder if I should work out what filters it was I had and stick to them... I was hoping the Dutch paper would be fine as it was cheap in a 100 pack and saves rinsing (didn't provide a massive difference compared to the brown filters). Hmm.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Morningfuel said:


> Okay, so 9 clicks still, 25g bloom for 30 seconds followed by 25g every 15 seconds. Total time until bed cleared, 4 minutes 5 seconds. Those last 30-40 seconds, the bed drains painfully slow...
> 
> But, taste is what counts! And in that respect.... It's not bad. Still a hair watery tasting, but the cocoa flavour is there in abundance, and it's sort of sweet - burnt caramel perhaps, rather than caramel. No apple zing yet, but as it cools it may yet be revealed.
> 
> I'm still not absolutely happy - I wonder if I should work out what filters it was I had and stick to them... I was hoping the Dutch paper would be fine as it was cheap in a 100 pack and saves rinsing (didn't provide a massive difference compared to the brown filters). Hmm.


Last bit always drains slowly. Any smokey bitterness/astringency (over, go coarser)? If it's just a little charred tasting, (rather than smokey/caramelly/sickly) it could yet be under, so try 8 clicks?

If weak, try knocking 5g off the bloom weight, all else the same.


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Last bit always drains slowly. Any smokey bitterness/astringency (over, go coarser)? If it's just a little charred tasting, (rather than smokey/caramelly/sickly) it could yet be under, so try 8 clicks?
> 
> If weak, try knocking 5g off the bloom weight, all else the same.


Alright, I'll give it a go in the morning.









It was, all in all, a nice cup of coffee. Balancing the longer drain time with a coarser grind is starting to get close to a really great cup - I think it's just refinement.

I think astringent is a good note - it's faint, but present. I'll try going one click finer and see how that goes.

I'll report back in the morning!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Morningfuel said:


> I think astringent is a good note - it's faint, but present. I'll try going one click finer and see how that goes.
> 
> I'll report back in the morning!


Astringent = smokey, drying, bitter beer - go coarser.


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Astringent = smokey, drying, bitter beer - go coarser.


Unfortunately I missed this but it's okay..

I tried going down to 8 clicks again, 20g bloom then 25 grams every 15 seconds. It's quite a manageable pouring regime, and made a good drink. Not astringent, or not detectable, there is a smokeyness but it's pleasant, and I'm finally getting a hint of acidity behind the chocolate sweetness.

Not watery tasting, either - I think we've, finally, cracked it! Let's just hope the next pack of filters doesn't have me on a wild goose chase again...


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