# Duo Temp Pro water temperature



## JimBean1

Hi,

I've very recently bought a new DTP from John Lewis and have been running it for a few days and making ok espresso's but it occured to me yesterday that my straight espresso wasn't overly hot so I did a temperature test on the water coming out of the group head (after a couple of purges to ensure it was all warmed up) and the thermometer is not going above 80 degrees Celsius whatever I try. I calibrated the thermometer by sticking it into a cup of water straight from a boiled kettle and it shot straight up over 90 so it's not a problem with the thermometer - am I missing something here or is there a problem with my new machine?

My routine has been to switch on the machine and wait for all lights to show then purge the group-head with the PF fully attached a couple of times to heat up all metal parts - I then run the shots and get this water temperature.

Any advice?

Thanks,

Jamie


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## Spy

The temperature in the cup will be different to the temp of the pressured water going through the grinds, which should be around 93 degrees.

I guess it is conceivable that by the time the water gets through the grinds and into the cup, it will be in the 80s.

Not sure how you can measure the water temp at the head.


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## JimBean1

Spy said:


> The temperature in the cup will be different to the temp of the pressured water going through the grinds, which should be around 93 degrees.
> 
> I guess it is conceivable that by the time the water gets through the grinds and into the cup, it will be in the 80s.
> 
> Not sure how you can measure the water temp at the head.


Thanks I was measuring the temperature without grinds, so water coming straight from the group head.


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## Spy

Is it possible to stick the thermometer through one of the portafilter spouts to try and measure the temp of the water in the portafilter ?

Also, you have me thinking now. Do Sage actually publish the water temp the DTP should be outputting, or the range at least as it is likely to fluctuate based on the settings of the thermostat they use ?


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## JimBean1

Spy said:


> Is it possible to stick the thermometer through one of the portafilter spouts to try and measure the temp of the water in the portafilter ?
> 
> Also, you have me thinking now. Do Sage actually publish the water temp the DTP should be outputting, or the range at least as it is likely to fluctuate based on the settings of the thermostat they use ?


I'll give it a go shortly. Just out of curiosity what routine do you use with your DTP for the first coffee - do you extract straight away when the lights come on after a minute or so, do you purge a full cup of just water from the group head first etc?


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## Spy

Did a quick bit of searching and it appears that Sage/Breville say that you can expect the water temp to drop around 6-7 degrees celsius after it leaves the shower screen which should put the temp at around 86 degrees in the portafilter.

Let us know the results of your testing.


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## Spy

JimBean1 said:


> I'll give it a go shortly. Just out of curiosity what routine do you use with your DTP for the first coffee - do you extract straight away when the lights come on after a minute or so, do you purge a full cup of just water from the group head first etc?


I normally pull about half a cup of water through the portafiler before taking the filter out to add the coffee grounds.

Similar reason to you; warm up the head and portafilter.

Have to admit, although this is probably a good thing to do in order to warm everything up, I am not convinced that the water temp would be at 93 degrees inside the machine.

Surely the laws of physics would preclude the water reaching that temp within a minute of switching on !


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## JimBean1

Spy said:


> I normally pull about half a cup of water through the portafiler before taking the filter out to add the coffee grounds.
> 
> Similar reason to you; warm up the head and portafilter.
> 
> Have to admit, although this is probably a good thing to do in order to warm everything up, I am not convinced that the water temp would be at 93 degrees inside the machine.
> 
> Surely the laws of physics would preclude the water reaching that temp within a minute of switching on !


I did think that but I'm guessing there's a very small powerful heater in the tank; it is slightly odd that it turns itself off after 10 minutes of inactivity as well which makes me think that it must indeed super heat very quickly and maintain it because unlike other machines that continue to heat over time the DTP shuts off.

Don't get me wrong I love the machine and I'm very pleased indeed with it, I just like to know my machine and how it works to get the very best out of it and it's great having this forum where others have the same machines.

Ultimately my shots taste nice and I'm getting a nice dark crema so clearly the critical variables are ok - I'm just fascinated with temperature at the moment.

Very envious of your DTP/Mignon setuo - that's my ultimate aim, I'm still on my original Encore grinder although it's modded to stepless and super fine grind so it does the job.


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## Spy

Thanks. I almost went for the Sage grinder when it was £140 but spent a little more on a used Mignon.

I too am very happy with my DTP. Can't complain about the shots it pulls but like you, always like to know it is working optimally.

As regards switching off, I wouldn't put that down to the effectiveness or performance of the machine. It is due to the EU regs.

For example, the new 2015 Silvia and Gaggia Classics also now switch off after 15 minutes due to EU regs. Much more of an issue for those machines as many people suggest they need a good 20-30 minutes to get up to optimal temp.


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## JimBean1

Spy said:


> Thanks. I almost went for the Sage grinder when it was £140 but spent a little more on a used Mignon.
> 
> I too am very happy with my DTP. Can't complain about the shots it pulls but like you, always like to know it is working optimally.
> 
> As regards switching off, I wouldn't put that down to the effectiveness or performance of the machine. It is due to the EU regs.
> 
> For example, the new 2015 Silvia and Gaggia Classics also now switch off after 15 minutes due to EU regs. Much more of an issue for those machines as many people suggest they need a good 20-30 minutes to get up to optimal temp.


I think the machine must have read these posts because I just thoroughly heated her up, ran several water purges and ran the steam wand then ground to perfection and ran a superb shot with mottled dark crema - pitty I messed the milk up a bit. Buzzing now after necking two double shot flat white


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## Spy




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## momchevk

This is old post but I recently bought a Duo Temp Pro and this discussion interested me. It made me link the observed proper temperature of the water once the auto purge had happened after using the steam wand.

Interestingly, I watched a review of the machine on YouTube by Crew Review where the lady first frothed the milk and then prepared the coffee... I normally would froth the milk last so it does not start separating...

Seems like I'll be making few measurements myself...


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## momchevk

In case anyone is interested, I did few measurements on my Duo Temp Pro this evening. Not very thorough but quite indicative, I think.

I used a styrofoam cup, cut to the size of the shower head, and a fast digital thermometer - ran through the bottom part of the cup.

Measurements:

1. Switched the machine, waited for the indicator to stop blinking, ran water through. In a bout a minute (or a bit less) after that I measured the water temp and it was ~83 degrees Celsius!

2. Switched the machine to steam mode, waited till the pump started working (thump, thump, thump), produced a bit of steam and then switched the machine back to its centre position (coffee brewing mode). After the machine self-purged to go back to coffee brewing temp, I measured it and it was (in two successive measurements) between 92.7 and 93.4 degrees Celsius.

3. After the machine was switched off for ~10 mins after the last measurement, I switched it on, ran some water through the head and waited for about 5 mins (the machine switches off in about 10 mins, I think). Ran some water through again and measured the temp. It was ~89.4 degrees.

Conclusion: Follow step 2 above and you should get ~93 degrees which is widely accepted (I think) as the optimal coffee brewing temp.

Hope this helps.


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## Wampa

momchevk said:


> In case anyone is interested, I did few measurements on my Duo Temp Pro this evening. Not very thorough but quite indicative, I think.
> 
> I used a styrofoam cup, cut to the size of the shower head, and a fast digital thermometer - ran through the bottom part of the cup.
> 
> Measurements:
> 
> 1. Switched the machine, waited for the indicator to stop blinking, ran water through. In a bout a minute (or a bit less) after that I measured the water temp and it was ~83 degrees Celsius!
> 
> 2. Switched the machine to steam mode, waited till the pump started working (thump, thump, thump), produced a bit of steam and then switched the machine back to its centre position (coffee brewing mode). After the machine self-purged to go back to coffee brewing temp, I measured it and it was (in two successive measurements) between 92.7 and 93.4 degrees Celsius.
> 
> 3. After the machine was switched off for ~10 mins after the last measurement, I switched it on, ran some water through the head and waited for about 5 mins (the machine switches off in about 10 mins, I think). Ran some water through again and measured the temp. It was ~89.4 degrees.
> 
> Conclusion: Follow step 2 above and you should get ~93 degrees which is widely accepted (I think) as the optimal coffee brewing temp.
> 
> Hope this helps.


This is very helpful to me, thanks for going into so much detail. I've been debating between the DTP and Silvia for a while now and the only thing putting me off the DTP has been the reports of low temperature water. This reassures me a lot.


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## momchevk

Wampa said:


> This is very helpful to me, thanks for going into so much detail. I've been debating between the DTP and Silvia for a while now and the only thing putting me off the DTP has been the reports of low temperature water. This reassures me a lot.


I decided to take a break and do another measurement. If the procedure in 2. above is followed straight from cold then I found the temp was about 88-89 degrees. I had to wait a bit, probably about 5 mins, to get the machine wormed out, then repeated 2. and got 93.4 degrees. So, assuming the machine is ready in 1 min for brewing coffee is not correct 

Still, probably better than temp surfing although I never had a Silvia, just a Gaggia Baby.


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## MatBat

Thanks for this, super helpful. Looks like I'll be making a few changes to my routine...

Now just need to find a 54mm bottomless portafilter (or make one), shame sage/breville don't make these...


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## momchevk

Glad to hear it is helpful. From what I read there isn't a 54mm naked portafilter for Breville/Sage. Unless you one yourself...


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## joey24dirt

MatBat said:


> Thanks for this, super helpful. Looks like I'll be making a few changes to my routine...
> 
> Now just need to find a 54mm bottomless portafilter (or make one), shame sage/breville don't make these...


Did you manage to make a bottomless portafilter? I've just ordered a new portafilter to convert so fingers crossed it turns out ok. Do you know if there are any other baskets that are compatible?


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## mejobloggs

momchevk said:


> .... snip ....
> 
> Conclusion: Follow step 2 above and you should get ~93 degrees which is widely accepted (I think) as the optimal coffee brewing temp.


I'm quite excited to read this, thank you for your testing.

My shots seem to always be sour no matter what I do with beans/grind/tamping/extraction-time.

Just yesterday I read if temperature is too low it can cause sour shots.

I'm really looking forward to trying your method tomorrow to see if it helps!


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## momchevk

mejobloggs said:


> I'm quite excited to read this, thank you for your testing.
> 
> My shots seem to always be sour no matter what I do with beans/grind/tamping/extraction-time.
> 
> Just yesterday I read if temperature is too low it can cause sour shots.
> 
> I'm really looking forward to trying your method tomorrow to see if it helps!


I do hope you get a nice tasty cup of coffee!


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## pottolom

momchevk said:


> In case anyone is interested, I did few measurements on my Duo Temp Pro this evening. Not very thorough but quite indicative, I think.
> 
> I used a styrofoam cup, cut to the size of the shower head, and a fast digital thermometer - ran through the bottom part of the cup.
> 
> Measurements:
> 
> 1. Switched the machine, waited for the indicator to stop blinking, ran water through. In a bout a minute (or a bit less) after that I measured the water temp and it was ~83 degrees Celsius!
> 
> 2. Switched the machine to steam mode, waited till the pump started working (thump, thump, thump), produced a bit of steam and then switched the machine back to its centre position (coffee brewing mode). After the machine self-purged to go back to coffee brewing temp, I measured it and it was (in two successive measurements) between 92.7 and 93.4 degrees Celsius.
> 
> 3. After the machine was switched off for ~10 mins after the last measurement, I switched it on, ran some water through the head and waited for about 5 mins (the machine switches off in about 10 mins, I think). Ran some water through again and measured the temp. It was ~89.4 degrees.
> 
> Conclusion: Follow step 2 above and you should get ~93 degrees which is widely accepted (I think) as the optimal coffee brewing temp.
> 
> Hope this helps.


So, are many DTP users following the methodology given in "2." above? Isn't this akin to temperature surfing, something the user is supposed to be able to avoid with the DTP and its PID?


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## ajohn

Measuring the temperature of the water the coffee sees is not an easy thing to do.

The manual mentions preheating the portafilter - or should do. So stick a dual walled single basket empty and run a shot through it. That should get it up to the temperature it should be, maybe 80C. After doing that either decide to heat it some way or the other or don't. Sage do add teflon to the portafilter to help prevent it taking heat from the flow but it has it's limitations.

Espresso machines usually have cup heaters built in. What I did to get around that problem is to switch to borosilicate mugs.

However what temperature are people likely to see coming out of the portafilter - circa high 70's when it reaches the mug.

John

-


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## ajohn

Just add if some one wants to know what temperature the grinds see buy or make one of these

https://www.espressoparts.com/scace-2-espresso-machine-thermofilter-temperature-pressure-device

John

-


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## djam

Reviving this thread rather than starting a fresh...

Had the DTP since Thursday and have put 250g of Cartwheel's Bekele through it... every single shot has been under extracted / super sour.

Using my Aergrind I've pushed it finer and choked some shots. Backed it up slightly and still sour.

18g in and 36g out. Also tried 17g/34g.

So... I measured the water temp and it isn't getting anywhere near 93c, even after steaming for a considerable amount of time.

85c max... I haven't seen it any higher regardless of how I try to warm the machine up.


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## MediumRoastSteam

djam said:


> Reviving this thread rather than starting a fresh...
> Had the DTP since Thursday and have put 250g of Cartwheel's Bekele through it... every single shot has been under extracted / super sour.
> 
> Using my Aergrind I've pushed it finer and choked some shots. Backed it up slightly and still sour.
> 18g in and 36g out. Also tried 17g/34g.
> 
> So... I measured the water temp and it isn't getting anywhere near 93c, even after steaming for a considerable amount of time.
> 85c max... I haven't seen it any higher regardless of how I try to warm the machine up.


Water will lose heat quickly once out of the group, I.e.m into a vessel. Unsure how you are measuring, but 85C doesn't seem wildly unexpected.

Put the machine into steam mode. Immediately pull a shot after that. How does it taste? Sour or bitter?

There are a few tricks to warm up that machine, to an extent, temperature stability is not its forte.


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## djam

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Water will lose heat quickly once out of the group, I.e.m into a vessel. Unsure how you are measuring, but 85C doesn't seem wildly unexpected.
> 
> Put the machine into steam mode. Immediately pull a shot after that. How does it taste? Sour or bitter?
> 
> There are a few tricks to warm up that machine, to an extent, temperature stability is not its forte.


 Tried this a few times and still the same. And it's exceptionally sour. The shot looks great, nice crema, seems to hit everything correct in terms of extraction times etc. just doesn't taste well.

This was probably a stupid test also... but after running the water I can put my fingers in without it burning... I can also do the same with the steam wand...


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## MediumRoastSteam

djam said:


> Tried this a few times and still the same. And it's exceptionally sour. The shot looks great, nice crema, seems to hit everything correct in terms of extraction times etc. just doesn't taste well.
> This was probably a stupid test also... but after running the water I can put my fingers in without it burning... I can also do the same with the steam wand...


Yeah, it's ok to put your hand under the steam wand with it steaming, as long as you keep your hands away from the tip of the steam wand, otherwise you're going to get a 115C plus scald!

Which grinder do you have? Also, have you tried other beans, maybe something medium/dark roast level, to rule out the beans not being to you taste scenario?

I don't actually own a DTP, but did look into one a while ago. Reading enough about it I came across its temperature woes and stayed well clear.


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## djam

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yeah, it's ok to put your hand under the steam wand with it steaming, as long as you keep your hands away from the tip of the steam wand, otherwise you're going to get a 115C plus scald!
> 
> Which grinder do you have? Also, have you tried other beans, maybe something medium/dark roast level, to rule out the beans not being to you taste scenario?
> 
> I don't actually own a DTP, but did look into one a while ago. Reading enough about it I came across its temperature woes and stayed well clear.


 Appreciate the help either way!

Tried these beans with the v60 and really enjoyed, got the lovely blueberry notes then a little bit of citrus at the end.

Main concern is that I haven't had 1 bitter shot from the entire lot of beans... I'd take comfort if I knew at one point I'd over extracted so I could get in between.

I do have some different beans that I'll try from tomorrow. Grinding with an Aergrind.


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## TomHughes

djam said:


> Appreciate the help either way!
> 
> Tried these beans with the v60 and really enjoyed, got the lovely blueberry notes then a little bit of citrus at the end.
> 
> Main concern is that I haven't had 1 bitter shot from the entire lot of beans... I'd take comfort if I knew at one point I'd over extracted so I could get in between.
> 
> I do have some different beans that I'll try from tomorrow. Grinding with an Aergrind.


 How are you measuring temp?


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## djam

TomHughes said:


> How are you measuring temp?


 Somewhat unreliably! Straight from the shower screen in to a double walled glass with a thermometer.

Appreciate I'm not getting a true reading but like I said, I've not had any shots that I've over extracted so struggling to understand what else I can change.


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## momchevk

Are you trying a light roast? I personally do not think DTP/Mignon, which I have, can do a good job with a light roast, or it may be just the DTP. I use medium to dark roast, mainly medium, and I am fine with the coffee produced. I also try to avoid coffee with high acidity but this is my taste. Not sure if this helps...

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk


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## Carajillo Cortado

djam said:


> Tried this a few times and still the same. And it's exceptionally sour. The shot looks great, nice crema, seems to hit everything correct in terms of extraction times etc. just doesn't taste well.
> 
> This was probably a stupid test also... but after running the water I can put my fingers in without it burning... I can also do the same with the steam wand...


 I am pretty sure you have fixed the problem since long time ago,but U had the same issue with the taste.Used Smart pro grinder at 12,18gr in 50 out.,as double shout is usually 2oz...

I was convinced my 4mo machine is broken...Then I cleaned the grinder.Warmed up the machine for longer and thing were fixed.


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