# Educate me on Naked filters and VST baskets!



## Scubadoo (Sep 3, 2012)

Hello,

I haven't bought any new toys for a while and was wondering about the Naked Portafilters and VST baskets.

Is it worth it? What exactly is the point of the naked filter?

And regarding the baskets, I'm a bit confused.

Are the LM ones that Coffeehit sell the same as the VST ones? Coffeehit say so.

And what size do i need? 18g? At the moment i use the double filter on my Rocket Cellini, pour in beans till they're level in the filter and then tip them in the grinder, so no idea of the weight of my dose.

Any advice appreciated.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

the LM and VST are the same basket. not sure why coffeehit would say otherwise, especially when it could talk them out of a sale. You could also look at the site "made by knock" who do baskets with matched tampers to with 0.05mm

what size you need depends on many things.

1) the portafilter you're using. Some wont take larger baskets.

2) your taste preferences, a standard double basket takes between 14-16g of coffee and as such is a match for the 15g VST basket (14g LM basket). if you want more coffee, get an 18g, if you like your doubles as they are, stick to the 15g.

I've got myself a naked portafilter on the way, but for the first while i'll be using the basket that comes with my new machine to see how i get used to it. In theory what a naked portafilter and VST gives you, is the ability to examine how your shot pours. Is the extraction even, level, smooth and of the desired colour. what you want is a few drips at first, but the extraction should gather into a lovely stream pouring from the centre of your basket. if its not centred, or pours from multiple places, then it means your grind or tamp are off. You work from there to improve both until you get a perfect shot.


----------



## Scubadoo (Sep 3, 2012)

shrink said:


> the LM and VST are the same basket. not sure why coffeehit would say otherwise, especially when it could talk them out of a sale.


Just to clarify, I said that Coffeehit say they are the same. Strange that they're so much cheaper?

Thanks for the comments. I use the standard Rocket double portafilter so i guess the 15g is the one to go for.

I presume this one will fir my Rocket Portafilters

http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/la-marzocco-basket-14g/p915


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Do coffeehit confirm they are the 'strada' baskets with a QR code etched on the basket & a certificate of analysis & Box?

If so they are damn cheap!


----------



## Scubadoo (Sep 3, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Do coffeehit confirm they are the 'strada' baskets with a QR code etched on the basket & a certificate of analysis & Box?
> 
> If so they are damn cheap!


Maybe I've got it wrong but if you look at this item and look at the question asked.

http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/la-marzocco-basket-17g/p863#tdesc_9


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/la-marzocco-basket-14g/p915

if you zoom into the pic you an see the etched QR code and the tell tale metallic glimmer inside the basket from the highly machined surface.

That said.. have you not noticed that none of the sizes are in stock?


----------



## Scubadoo (Sep 3, 2012)

ah, hadn't noticed that!


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

they have been out of stock since pretty much forever, and ive asked for email updates.

hasbean also sell VST baskets for about £23 ish... and made by knock do a basket and tamper for about £45


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Does this help http://lamarzoccousa.com/docs/tb/LM-Basket-Guide.pdf


----------



## Scubadoo (Sep 3, 2012)

next question - ridged or ridge-less?


----------



## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

i'm sure there is a recent post on here where someone says that the VST and LM baskets aren't actually the same, though they are very similar, and that the VST baskets have a slightly higher level of quality control. i'll see if i can find it. that aside, seems that the LM baskets are very good value.

i've been toying with getting a naked portafilter. i think it's a must if you really want to analyse your technique and try and improve your consistency etc. and understand why some shots taste better than others.

i got an 18g VST from has bean fairly recently and i have noticed a definite improvement in my shots. you do have to change your grind and tamping technique a bit from the standard baskets (at least with regards the classic). don't know what the standard baskets in a rocket are like but i imagine they are fairly similar.


----------



## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

found it http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?8162-VST-and-La-Marzocco


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

yes but he was corrected a bit further down the page

they are the same basket


----------



## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

VST and LM are different companies. However I believe the two types of basket are comparable in quality. The noticeable difference on coffeehit is they are sold in 14g, 17g and 21g, where VST sell in 15g, 18g , 20g and 22g. However I believe VST size is the mid range (e.g 18g is for 17g-19g) where as LM name them by the minimum dose (e.g 17g is for 17g-19g) therefore are actually exactly the same size. Maybe someone else can confirm all this. I only own the 18g VST, although I am looking at a madebyknock tamper and may buy it with the LM 14g/15g.


----------



## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

shrink said:


> yes but he was corrected a bit further down the page
> 
> they are the same basket


possibly, but i'm not sure that was conclusive. that's the quoted opinion of a supplier, who may be right, but then again he may not be. i suspect they probably are the same, but maybe the VST baskets undergo more rigorous testing or have a higher quality threshold.

would seem hard to justify the VST being double the price of the LM basket if they are identical.


----------



## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

Couple of articles on this:

http://www.lamarzoccousa.com/blog/la-marzocco-basket/

http://coffeegeek.com/opinions/markprince/04-29-2011

would seem to suggest that they almost certainly are of the same design.


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

i saw a video online that was from LM which very much suggested they were the same thing.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

''Comparisons between VST and La Marzocco baskets are complicated by the fact that there are actually TWO lines of LM baskets, the "Strada" and the "Advanced Precision Filter Basket."''

I suspect Advanced Precision Filter Basket = £ 12 quid (coffeehit)

VST/Strada = £23 Quid (Has Bean)


----------



## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

yes, i think you're right gary

if you look a this article http://lamarzoccousa.com/docs/tb/LM-Basket-Guide.pdf

the key paragraph is this:

"La Marzocco has now decided to expand its efforts in basket production to other model lines, with our

"Advanced Precision Filter Basket". These new filter baskets will now come standard on Linea, GB/5,

FB/80 and GS/3 machines. Advanced Precision Filter Baskets share the same manufacturing process as

Strada Filter Baskets, but to keep machine prices affordable these baskets are not individually scanned.

These new filter baskets will soon be available as parts, using the part number identified in each set of

filter baskets photos."

So, they use the same manufacturing process, but the VST and Strada baskets are individually scanned for QA purposes.


----------



## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

Basically, if your basket has a VR code on it, then it's either a Strada or a VST and has been individually scanned.


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

so suggesting the ones from coffeehit are still the higher grade ones? as they have the QR code

shame they dont have any!!


----------



## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

i'm not sure if they are the higher grade ones (strada) or not. hard to tell from the image on their website or whether you can trust that image to be the actual item itself.

i suspect it's actually not the strada since it is so much cheaper than a VST, but who knows.


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

More information about the VST baskets is at this link


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

another VST based question for the pro's on here... if using a 20g basket, does this result in larger shots? e.g. can you create a larger volume of espresso with the same flavour profile as a smaller basket.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

In theory same flow rate and extraction time should produce similar results

e.g 25-30 seconds extraction

15g basket 1.6 = 24g output

18g basket 1.6 = 28.8g output

20g basket 1.6 = 32g output

My findings, however, are different mouthfeel and flavour profiles between the 3 baskets & certain coffees seemed to get better results in a particular basket


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

fair do's... was just thinking in terms of using a 20g basket to create two latte's at the same time, by pulling fairly large shots into small ish cups.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

In the WBC they split pour using 20g baskets into cappuchinos, these are pretty small volume drinks however.

Maybe a VST 22g would be the way to go for you?


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

maybe? see for my own drinks (12oz latte) i will be using the naked portafilter and a 15g basket to produce a standard double.

But for two lattes (2x 8oz) i'd perhaps want two large shots topped up. I'll look into this


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

15g x 1.6 = 24g output for one drink and this is what you like?

Could updose the 22g by 1 gram

23g x 1.6 = 36.8g out put split = 18.4g for each drink. Might be a bit weak?


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

> if using a 20g basket, does this result in larger shots? e.g. can you create a larger volume of espresso with the same flavour profile as a smaller basket.


Not necessarily. It all depends ont he flavour profile you are trying to achieve. Extraction ratios should be measured only once you are happy with the taste.


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

garydyke1 said:


> In the WBC they split pour using 20g baskets into cappuchinos, these are pretty small volume drinks however.


There are specific guidelines which the drink must fall into. These are not always realistic in the real world (eg in your local coffeeshop)

Competition drink specs are here


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

not so sure i follow this whole 1.6 ratio stuff gary. I extract 15g of grinds to 2x 1oz of fluid (as per the WBC definition of a shot) and adjust my tamp and grind to ensure i get a good looking shot with no early blonding in about 25 ish seconds. So for me 12oz latte is 2oz of espresso into 10oz of milk. I don't mind an 8oz latte (still 2oz of coffee) but thats more a morning thing, in the evening i like it a bit weaker. i'd be looking to perhaps extract a 20g basket out to 1.25oz of coffee each and use that in the 8oz cups.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I was only using the 1.6 ratio and extraction in grams as an example (both fixed variables).

(You will find the WBC competitors will probably weigh input versus output versus time versus taste when dialling in)

Volume of liquid isnt the best method of measurement for espresso , its variable due to viscosity and crema depth. The geek in me has to weigh everything, this is only for dialing in remember ...once happy I just repeat, fixing dose and time.

''i'd be looking to perhaps extract a 20g basket out to 1.25oz of coffee each and use that in the 8oz cups. '' This should work. I guess you need to try it out and taste taste taste


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

yeah, so much to learn and to try as well... im going to get used to the cherub and the standard basket in a naked filter. Then i'll upgrade to the 15g VST and see how i get on with that. Then i'll consider a larger basket









as its been almost impossible to get consistent shots from my crappy gaggia carezza, i think the first step is getting consistent 15g in, good shot out, from the cherub. Then i'll experiment more.


----------



## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

shrink said:


> yeah, so much to learn and to try as well... im going to get used to the cherub and the standard basket in a naked filter. Then i'll upgrade to the 15g VST and see how i get on with that. Then i'll consider a larger basket
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That exactly how I would recommend learning. Don't expand until you consistently achieve what you are after with the kit you've got. Else you continuously add new variables and forget the basics, making it far harder to achieve that consistency. I still want a cherub though.......


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

well i bought the cherub to try and create a stable platform for learning. The gaggia i had was pretty unstable in terms of temp, had poor steaming ability, made a lot of mess and just wasnt a great way to get consistent.

I think if you can take some of the kit out of the equation, it narrows down the number of things you have to think about. I can be fairly sure that after a quick flush, the cherub will be at a good temperature. Its a good solid foundation to work from.


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Competition coffee is dose & volume to get the best taste possible withint he parameters

Water is set at 93.5c as well

We quite often overlook this important parameter when discussing dose and volume.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Glenn said:


> Competition coffee is dose & volume to get the best taste possible withint he parameters
> 
> Water is set at 93.5c as well
> 
> We quite often overlook this important parameter when discussing dose and volume.


Interesting. Did I read somewhere the UKBC was set to 92c?


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Last year it was 92c. This year it is set to 93.5c on the Sanremo Verona TCS


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

This may be where you read the temperatuire information for UKBC


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

who'd have thought there was so much to making coffee huh!!

when my mate gave me a machine, i figured it'd be easy!


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I wonder why the change in temperature, did competitors/judges feel the lower temperature wasnt suiting the coffees they were using?


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

If you want to buy the LM Strada baskets cheap then buy them direct I bought 2 of the 17g ones and yes they come with all the QC stuff the only real difference is they come in a bag with the certificate rather than a box like VST ones and also there seems to be no choice as mine were ridged ones. http://www.lamarzocco.it/lmeshop/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=2&Itemid=5


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

garydyke1 said:


> I wonder why the change in temperature, did competitors/judges feel the lower temperature wasnt suiting the coffees they were using?


An arbitrary figure had to be chosen, it's somewhere in the middle of the brewing range, it works well for Nuova Simonelli Machines, and is a consistent temperature around the world.

Theres probably a whole bunch of other reasons too but they're probably lost in the smallprint...


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Naked in action........

http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b534/dfk41/36886AE9-C478-4D59-9A1E-6B7A67F9C82D-4523-000002C24EA1416E_zps56d4cab0.mp4


----------



## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

I'm guessing that Marzocco don't make their own filter baskets - they probably have them custom made by a 3rd party engineering company (who make all the other generic FBs).

Surprising how many espresso machine component suppliers are in Italy & Spain: They all exhibit at the trade expos over there LOL


----------



## Kamakazie! (Nov 22, 2012)

reneb said:


> i'm not sure if they are the higher grade ones (strada) or not. hard to tell from the image on their website or whether you can trust that image to be the actual item itself.
> 
> i suspect it's actually not the strada since it is so much cheaper than a VST, but who knows.


I bought the Coffeehit baskets and they were the Strada baskets which came with a scan & QR code.

I suspect the reason they are cheaper is because they are OEM parts meant for commercial use. OEM stuff is always significantly cheaper than retail equivalents.



espressotechno said:


> I'm guessing that Marzocco don't make their own filter baskets - they probably have them custom made by a 3rd party engineering company (who make all the other generic FBs).
> 
> Surprising how many espresso machine component suppliers are in Italy & Spain: They all exhibit at the trade expos over there LOL


From memory, VST & Strada baskets are manufactured in the same place, which I though was at an LM factory. Maybe not though.

EDIT: You can see a Coffeehit response to the query regarding their baskets under questions @ http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/la-marzocco-basket-17g/p863#tdesc_9


----------



## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

I haven't bought any new toys for a while and was wondering about the Naked Portafilters and VST baskets.

And what size do i need? 18g? At the moment i use the double filter on my Rocket Cellini, pour in beans till they're level in the filter and then tip them in the grinder, so no idea of the weight of my dose."

To add a personal response, I got at 15 and a 18 VST from Square Mile before Xmas. Great advice from them and reassured that my Reg Barber 58mm tamper would be fine. Using the yoghurt pot and cocktail stick technique for distribution (can't remember its name!) I now get consistent quality shots with the bottomless pf. No more squirters which redecorate the kitchen. I have the ridgeless 18 and find that 19g is the optimum dose which tamps down well below the top. Inevitably the large Silvia shower screw leaves its mark........ but it does this all the time...... just a feature of the design?!

19g ground coffee yields between 28g and 32g in the glass in 25-30 secs. I usually shut it off after blonding appears regardless of time. Taste is pretty consistent whichever. Tend to go by that more than time and weight in glass....

Don't know if this is of any use...... Having fun discovering these things myself as a relative novice.


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

That's natural Ian.

The coffee will press against the shower screen as it expands and the coffee should extract evenly through the puck

Not an issue


----------



## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

Kamakazie! said:


> You can see a Coffeehit response to the query regarding their baskets under questions @ http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/la-marzocco-basket-17g/p863#tdesc_9


The Coffeehit response says,



> VST and Strada basket are one and the same.


This is simply untrue. Rather than relying on resellers to have up-to-date information, you will get a more accurate answer if you contact the manufacturer directly (as I did).


----------



## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

shrink said:


> yes but he was corrected a bit further down the page
> 
> they are the same basket


I understand that "higher quality control scores" (in VST vs LM) is a rather vague claim. Also, that "revised side taper profiles and radii" (in VST vs LM) may not sound like a big deal.

On the other hand, LM's decision to abandon the individual scanning step in their "Advanced Precision Filter Baskets" IS a big deal, since the scanning is crucial to rejecting defective baskets (and anyone familiar with large-scale precision machining operations knows defects ALWAYS occur).

But on an even simpler level, count the holes: since VST baskets are shipping with 727 perforations on the bottom, and LM baskets with 715, please ask your vendor to explain how these two companies are selling "the same basket."

Any person who can explain that one should forget about the coffee industry -- they have a bright future in politics!


----------



## Guest (11 mo ago)

We are professional wholesale distributor of jerseys, focused in supplying Wholesale Jerseys and personalized jerseys.
Jerseys along with 100% stitched real quality, all Quantities, Logos and 
Titles are sewn upon and embroidered.
best places to buy nfl jerseys


----------

