# Pulling and preparing a shot with a lever



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Just thinking out loud here, so join in if you like. I sold my L1 at the start of June and so had to use a small pump machine for a couple of months. Switching to a pump, I went back to basics. I always weighed my grinds out and started to weigh the output aiming for 60% over 25 to 30 seconds.

The new lever arrives and my mind is mush and I have to start thinking again about the differences in preparation. So now, after 2 weeks I am coming to the conclusion that weighing output on the lever is a nonsense really. On a pump the pressure is constant and I found that from flipping the switch and counting, it would often be 10 seconds before the flow started. After 10 seconds I would have about 10 gms and over the next 10 seconds, about another 15 to 17 gms.

On a lever, you do not start the count until after you have raised the lever to end the pre infusion and the flow starts. If I am allowing up to 30 seconds for the shot to pour, presumably that is compensating the reduced flow that falls away as the shot pours?

I have stopped weighing output this morning, tightened the grind up a bit, slowed the flow down and gone back to only capturing 22 seconds or so and discarding the rest.

What do you other lever boys do?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

I start the clock from the moment the lever is cocked, i.e. start of pre-infusion and aim for 25-30secs to pull a ratio of 1:1.5. Pre-infusion time is part of the overall shot time. I will also let the pour run to 1:2 with a longer time.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I weigh in and out .

I don't pay much attention to the time aspect , apart from establishing a consistent pre infusion time ( which I think increases yield more ) I hit a weight out and taste and adjust accordingly ..sometimes if really really good , or it's all going wrong , ill refract but that's by the bye ...

I am unclear why you think a brew ratio ( weighing in and out ) wouldn't be applicable to a lever but would to a pump machine ? Bearing in mind most commercial and e61 pump machines has at least some form of pre infusion and some have pressure profiling ...

There is some anecdotal research that indicates pre infusion effects yield and therefore taste more than back end pressure profiling .

In my limited experience of shots and profiles on a pressure profiling machine this would seem to ring true ( I haven't done enough to be certain on this though ) ..


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## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

I weigh the beans

Pre-infuse for 6 secs

Let the shot flow for about 25-30 secs and pull cup

If It starts blonding earlier I'll pull cup

I've never weighed the output.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Well I'm with Martin here after all whats the point in even talking about a brew ratio if you either don't weigh or do weigh but cut your shot at x seconds come what may. These days I shoot for the brew ratio I'm after in whatever times it takes, as long as the time taken isn't getting silly.

There is a good post talking about effects of preinfusion on James Hoffman's Jim Seven blog.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> I weigh in and out .
> 
> I don't pay much attention to the time aspect , apart from establishing a consistent pre infusion time ( which I think increases yield more ) I hit a weight out and taste and adjust accordingly ..sometimes if really really good , or it's all going wrong , ill refract but that's by the bye ...
> 
> ...


artin, my thoughts are this: a pump pre infuses, take the Silvano, afar pressing the switch nothing appeared for about en seconds. Over the next 10 seconds, about 10 gms would come out, leaving a remaining ten seconds for the last 17 gms in this case. That means that the pump is forcing water through a wet puck and extracting different volumes at different stages. A pump, once the extraction starts, the pressure is immediately starting to fall away, so the flow reduces. This means that you are extracting a smaller amount through the same wet puck at any given point. that many mean something or nothing to the boffins, but the thought crossed my mind that it must have an effect somewhere!


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

A pump machine only preinfuses in the true sense of the word if the function is built into it either mechanically or electronically, other than that the pump ramps up to full pressure and hits the puck at that pressure rather than holding a preinfusion pressure constant for whatever amount of seconds chosen.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> artin, my thoughts are this: a pump pre infuses, take the Silvano, afar pressing the switch nothing appeared for about en seconds. Over the next 10 seconds, about 10 gms would come out, leaving a remaining ten seconds for the last 17 gms in this case. That means that the pump is forcing water through a wet puck and extracting different volumes at different stages. A pump, once the extraction starts, the pressure is immediately starting to fall away, so the flow reduces. This means that you are extracting a smaller amount through the same wet puck at any given point. that many mean something or nothing to the boffins, but the thought crossed my mind that it must have an effect somewhere!


I'm not a boffin but here goes

I may be wrong please correct me if I am ( MWJB )

In whatever machine you put coffee in ( which can be weighed ) and you get coffee out ( which can be weighed ) . This would give you a brew ratio.

So example, put 18 g In get 30g out brew ratio of 60 %

The different machines and pressures and pre infusion would still allow you to dose say 18g in and get 30 g out ( you would have the same brew ratio for whatever machine you have ) possibly over different times ....

You might get a different amount of solids ( TDS ) and therefore a different yield % from the different machines ( but with same brew ratio ) . This would mean it woud, taste different to each other ( assuming grind and distribution are the same in each case due to hear pump pressure they are operating at but the brew ratio is the same 18>30 )

You then start getting into the best pump pressure for extraction , and what pre infusion does to yields and solids in the cup ( TDS ) but this should make hitting a brew ratio irrelevant ( if you want to , you don't have to weigh , I'm not forcing you )

Different pump pressure ( pump or lever ) will mean the shot will extract at different times but won't change the brew ration ...

The taste will be different due to how much coffee extracts though...even if the same brew ratio is obtained ( this could be over the same or different times )


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Pre-infusion gently soaks the puck allowing the grinds to swell and, equally important, the fines to act like mortar between the grinds to create resistance to the applied water pressure which will be looking for the path of least resistance. It follows that pre-infusion will benefit extraction yield when compared to the same dose weight/output weight where full pump pressure is applied to the puck from commencement of extraction.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Pre infusion should allow you to grind finer and therefore extract more


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Yep.

13 ducklings


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

http://www.jimseven.com/2009/06/02/using-a-lever-machine/


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think I am going to buy a Nespresso machine. All this extraction stuff is starting to hurt my head now!


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

Charliej said:


> http://www.jimseven.com/2009/06/02/using-a-lever-machine/


"People who go to Naples often seem to come back remarking on the 45 second shot time. I haven't had much under 35s that I've really liked"

:-O


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I don't really see why there would be any reason to weigh, or not, from one kind of machine to another...if you're looking for, say, 1:1.6 you're looking for the same overall result, though it could well be affected by nuances due to profile, grind required, tactile experience (I think it would take a fair bit of effort to do a meaningful comparison).

David, you say that after 30 seconds total (20 seconds of observed flow) on the pump machine you get 25-27g out. From the same dose on the lever, what weight do you get from 22seconds of flow and a flavour that you like?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MW, will answer that one tomorrow!


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