# My new Londinium L1 replaced with a Lelit Bianca.



## cuprajake

Picked this up tonight.

Really happy with it

Need to learn how to use it now mind

View attachment 53914


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## Rincewind

Welcome to the *LEVER CLUB* pal 👏

Remember some of those tips i gave you and you'll nail it.

p.s....FWIW *the next-step on the upgradeitus ladder* is a GS3, a Speedster or a Slayer...just saying :classic_wink:

EDIT :- when you move house then plumb that sucker in.....no pump noise.....the silence is deafening muhahaha


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## Baffo

Cuprajake said:


> Picked this up tonight.
> 
> Really happy with it
> 
> Need to learn how to use it now mind
> 
> View attachment 53914


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## cuprajake

they are, there not small mind,


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## profesor_historia

Cuprajake said:


> they are, there not small mind,


Didn't you have a Mínima? Or I am deluded . Congrats


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## Baffo

Cuprajake said:


> they are, there not small mind,


 the big question is, are yer guns big enough so that you can film a youtube video with one hand and pull the shot with the other?


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## cuprajake

@Baffo not one bit - lol


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## Marocchino

Cuprajake said:


> Picked this up tonight.
> 
> Really happy with it


 Found this useful when I went over to the lever dark side last year.









Great for catching the discard waste as you swap cups over and prevents coffee mess. The one I use the most is the 30ml spoon.


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## cuprajake

perfect, ive just watched a vid of someone doing exactly that

thanks


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## Marocchino

Cuprajake said:


> perfect, ive just watched a vid of someone doing exactly that


 It's very easy to do. Hope you have a lot of enjoyment from using it.


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## PortafilterProcrastinator

@Cuprajake where's the minima gone?! Didn't last long!


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## cuprajake

New owner should be on his way now for it.


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## Jony

Nice, I might even get around to putting a plug on mine 🤣


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## The Systemic Kid

Works better that way, I think🤣


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## cuprajake

What you like.


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## OliG

Come on then. Where are the videos??


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## cuprajake

@OliG still learning not pulled anything decent yet😂😂


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## 4085

@CuprajakeThis might sound like a lecture, but it is not! With a lever, when you pull the lever down, you inject a set amount of water onto the puck. it is important (for consistency), to keep the lever cocked until two or three drips have fallen into the cup before you raise the lever. This way, you know two things, Firstly you have emptied all the water onto the puck and secondly, the puck has saturated which will help an even extraction. Does not really matter but I would aim for about 5 to 7 seconds for the drips to appear, which in turn will help you set your grind correctly. Do the same thing every time


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## cuprajake

Yeah.

Im still getting to grips with it. The basket etc, and the grind size.

Ive ordered a naked pf so hoping that will make things easier


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## Jony

Everything is different, same with my one.


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## Cooffe

Test


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## 4085

Cuprajake said:


> Yeah.
> 
> Im still getting to grips with it. The basket etc, and the grind size.
> 
> Ive ordered a naked pf so hoping that will make things easier


 Bet you it does not (at first!)


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## cuprajake

I've joined the londinium forum,

I have this basket
View attachment 53997


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## cuprajake

New cups ♥ and towel
View attachment 54044


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## mathof

dfk41 said:


> @CuprajakeThis might sound like a lecture, but it is not! With a lever, when you pull the lever down, you inject a set amount of water onto the puck. it is important (for consistency), to keep the lever cocked until two or three drips have fallen into the cup before you raise the lever. This way, you know two things, Firstly you have emptied all the water onto the puck and secondly, the puck has saturated which will help an even extraction. Does not really matter but I would aim for about 5 to 7 seconds for the drips to appear, which in turn will help you set your grind correctly. Do the same thing every time


 The advice you give is in line with my practice when using medium/medium dark roasts on my L1, but I find that lightly roasted beans require longer preinfustions to extract sufficiently. Quite light ones work best if I increase PI pressure by raising the lever after a few seconds to the catch point and holding it there until dripping begins, at which point I release it fully.


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## Marocchino

Cuprajake said:


> New cups


 Where did you source them from? I thought Reiss had stopped stocking them.


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## cuprajake

@Marocchino he has, I'm a very very lucky boy.


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## Marocchino

Cuprajake said:


> he has, I'm a very very lucky boy.


 😀


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## cuprajake

@mathof thanks

I'm working with med roast ATM but I'm blind using this dual spout pf. ATM I'm not getting amazing results, this puck was 18g in the large basket, it's channel, and I can see the shower screen. It was however imo a tad to coarse


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## cuprajake

So these two beautiful cups came from a good friend @Rincewind such a nice gesture.


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## Marocchino

Been keeping a watchful eye out for a couple of cappuccino cups for a while - they seem to be as rare as hen's teeth.


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## Rincewind

Marocchino said:


> Been keeping a watchful eye out for a couple of cappuccino cups for a while - they seem to be as rare as hen's teeth.


 Indeed....if you ask the man nicely....he will send you some from NZ , although you have to pay the postage (not cheap)


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## Marocchino

Rincewind said:


> Indeed....if you ask the man nicely....he will send you some from NZ , although you have to pay the postage (not cheap)


 Thanks for the heads up, oddly enough, I asked him about a couple of cups last time we exchanged texts a short while ago and he said that he no longer had them in stock 🤔


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## Rincewind

Marocchino said:


> Thanks for the heads up, oddly enough, I asked him about a couple of cups last time we exchanged texts a short while ago and he said that he no longer had them in stock 🤔


 ooops my bad, i must have snagged the last ones muhahahaha :classic_blush:


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## Marocchino

Rincewind said:


> ooops my bad, i must have snagged the last ones muhahahaha :classic_blush:


 🤣🤣🤣


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## Joe shorrock

So nice man, please KEEP the L1 🤣🤣


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## cuprajake

When I spoke to him this week, he said he may one day make some UK ones.


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## Marocchino

Cuprajake said:


> When I spoke to him this week, he said he may one day make some UK ones.


 Good to know - thanks!


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## Fez

Cuprajake said:


> I've joined the londinium forum,
> 
> I have this basket
> View attachment 53997


 I found a night and day difference when switching from those to a VST


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## cuprajake

Getting there.
View attachment 54063


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## UncleFester

hello i really like your lever machine (this looks like a early londinium L1), how are you liking it as it is in the runnings for me to buy or a pavoni


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## mathof

Fez said:


> I found a night and day difference when switching from those to a VST


 Me too.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake said:


> Getting there.
> View attachment 54063


 Looking good Jake! 👍


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## cuprajake

@UncleFester early days yet, struggle a tad, the minima was easier to get a good shot on atm, once the naked pf comes then it will make things easier.

I've never used a Pavoni @KTD knows all about them though. 😁

@Fez I heard vst are evil 😅


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## UncleFester

it looks like a very nice machine. how do you find it handles lighter roasts i read on the londinium forums that the L1 is more aimed to dark roasts do you find this is the case


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## cuprajake

So far I've only really used med, it's a north Star Rwandan. App the newer londinium r can do lighter with ease, they have a single or something 😅


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## Rincewind

UncleFester said:


> how do you find it handles lighter roasts i read on the londinium forums that the L1 is more aimed to dark roasts do you find this is the case


 iirc *lighter roasts aren't a problem* apart from the very 1st editions/pre-pump; *again i may be mistaken*.... @coffeechap is your man in the know.

So Jake's machine should do light-roasts a piece of p**s


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## cuprajake

Personally not into light roast for espresso, prefer it through a pour over


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## The Systemic Kid

Have had Londiniums since 2013 including first model. Perfectly capable of pulling excellent espresso from lighter roasts. It's the grinder that matters.


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## UncleFester

that's good to hear what grinder do you have?


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## cuprajake

Mazzer major with the 83mm titanium burrs👍


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## cuprajake




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## Fez

Cuprajake said:


> @UncleFester early days yet, struggle a tad, the minima was easier to get a good shot on atm, once the naked pf comes then it will make things easier.
> 
> I've never used a Pavoni @KTD knows all about them though. 😁
> 
> @Fez I heard vst are evil 😅


 Only the 15g. The 18g is my friend


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## cuprajake

So decided to pop the top off the Londinium just to see what condition it was in, happy to report the internals are mint


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## Heligan

Ah, I remember it well 😊. Glad "my" machine has gone to a good home. I was almost tempted to buy it back....


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## Jony

It sure is doing its rounds


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## cuprajake

Im only the third owner 🤣 but it is moving further north 🤣🤣🤣


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## Norvin

L1 - it's what your right arm's for.

Glad to see that you are happy with it. I'm missing it already, got the Cherub working properly as a stand in machine until the Vostok arrives, but it's just not the same.


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## cuprajake

Yeah, im happy with it, i just need to get there with it.

Did a bit of cleaning. May buy a new drip tray just so its new, one thing i will say is spares seem cheap enough, steam arm £15 etc


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## cuprajake

So the naked portafilter came in. Finally
View attachment 54220


So had a quick go, tad fine 16g in 30g out, wasnt nice


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## The Systemic Kid

Bitter?


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## cuprajake

Yeah was that way. But its also a new bean with a dark chocolate and pecan tasting note.


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## The Systemic Kid

Over-extracted. Try cutting ratio to 1:1.5 ristretto territory or even a tad shorter by adjusting the grind but keep the dose the same until you've tweaked it to you liking.


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## Mrboots2u

The Systemic Kid said:


> Over-extracted. Try cutting ratio to 1:1.5 ristretto territory or even a tad shorter by adjusting the grind but keep the dose the same until you've tweaked it to you liking.


 It's not gonna be over edxtracted at 16>30 , it may be bitter, but it won't be over extracted

Bitter can alway occur at under extraction just before you hit a sweet spot , so try both shorten the ratio if you want a stronger drink with some sweetness ( it will tho be nominally :under extracted" )

AND OR

lengthen your ratio and state potential sweeter but sweeter brew

There aren't many espresso made with conventional gear at 1:2 that will be over extracted


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## cuprajake

Totally having to re learn making coffee.

Stopped using the leveller, just tamping, light

16g in the stock ridged basket, spent pucks still seem to swell and leave a shower screen indent, checking depth pre shot its not touching.

Sweating is getting better, think the key now is deciding when to pull the shot.

If im honest, im not getting along with the machine atm and really feeling like ive made a massive mistake buying it 😔


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## Inspector

Heligan said:


> Ah, I remember it well 😊. Glad "my" machine has gone to a good home. I was almost tempted to buy it back....


 dont worry pretty sure this will be up for sale in couple of months  Or is she a keeper?


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## Baffo

Cuprajake said:


> Totally having to re learn making coffee.
> 
> Stopped using the leveller, just tamping, light
> 
> 16g in the stock ridged basket, spent pucks still seem to swell and leave a shower screen indent, checking depth pre shot its not touching.
> 
> Sweating is getting better, think the key now is deciding when to pull the shot.
> 
> If im honest, im not getting along with the machine atm and really feeling like ive made a massive mistake buying it ????


 Stay strong Jake! It's not a mistake, it's learning.


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## cuprajake

@Baffo im a perfectionist and this annoys me, i will get there. Its just a very steep learning curve 🤣 im getting some great advice off people though


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## Mrboots2u

Take a deep breath and chill.

It's still a coffee machine , your over thinking , it's ok is there is a shower Indent after extraction ,

Back to basics , put in some coffee weigh it , get some coffee out weigh it , taste and adjust .

You'll get lots of advice., some of it contradictory , but essentially a lever is still applying heat and pressure to a puck .

Eating til a baskets beads isn't the only way to make coffee for instance and isn't the only way to get a good shot from a lever, ( or any other soft pre infusion machine )

They are great machines , easy to use if you just concentrate on the basics


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## cuprajake

Yeah ive gatered ive over dosed due to the ring in the puck post shot.


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## cuprajake

From before, im slowly getting there,


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## Sparkyx

@Cuprajake, if you need some pointers feel free to PM me.


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## cuprajake

so this mornings efforts, back to basics

14g in stock basket, fine grind, wdt no spinner just tamp






it either sucked the puck up, or destroyed the puck right away, gave this the mrs in a milk drink 30g out


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## cuprajake

you can also hear the lever creaking going up, so presume that needs greasing?

so tried again, second shot same weigh, and procedure this time went a notch coarser on the mazzer






was ok in milk, but very fast. im thinking had the puck prep been better on the first shot, then it would of been near the right size,

atm its very frustrating, and in not a patient person, if i could lift the machine easily it would of been through the window a few times


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## Missy

You seem to be adjusting the dose a lot? What's the guidance dose for the basket?


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## cuprajake

@Missy what id been recommended from a very good lever expert


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## UncleFester

Hello jake what dose are you using in those baskets? It looks like it might be "channelling" which can be down to dose, grind consistency or level of the puck


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## cuprajake

14g in the stock 16 basket, its a north star med roast -

what amazes me is the difference im seeing on the l1 to every other machine ive used, ive never had a puck destroy itself like that, and arguably the l1 has a softer pre infusion 1.3bar


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## Mark70

Jake. I know nothing about levers. Just to say stick in there you will get there and it will be worth it

It looks to be running fast. Grind finer?


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## Mrboots2u

Cuprajake said:


> 14g in the stock 16 basket, its a north star med roast -
> 
> what amazes me is the difference im seeing on the l1 to every other machine ive used, ive never had a puck destroy itself like that, and arguably the l1 has a softer pre infusion 1.3bar


 Underdosing perhaps

What baskets were you using before the L1 ?


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## iroko

The lever creaking is probably just the sound of the spring.

I tend to favour the IMS B70 2T h24.5M basket, although currently I'm using the VST 15g as 15g of the bean I'm using at the moment is not enough for the IMS.

Try grinding finer and concentrate on puck prep, try not to get frustrated and enjoy the journey.


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## The Systemic Kid

iroko said:


> The lever creaking is probably just the sound of the spring.


 Plus one for that.


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## cuprajake

Stock basket being used at 14g, i am trying to concentrate on puck prep too

Decided to grease the seals.


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## cuprajake

Then i remembered there were fresh seals so i decided to clean the group head and add the seals.


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## cuprajake

This is what met me in the group though..


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## cuprajake

And all back together


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## Sparkyx

Nothing better than fitting new seals on a Londinium. Good job 👍.

Out of curiosity, how long did it take you?


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## Mark70

Jake

There is a similar thread on Home Barista which may help you as it develops

https://www.home-barista.com/levers/londinium-l1-channeling-pre-infusion-t71739.html


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## cuprajake

@Sparkyx about 10 mins, it took longer cleaning up


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## cuprajake

@Mark70 thanks for the link bud


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## cuprajake

Getting better. 14g>28g over 30s, i need to coarsen up a tad, tasting wise, slightly bitter but did have a sweet after taste.


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## Rob1

So you got the flow control thing for the Minima and then thought to yourself, why have I done this when what I really wanted was a lever?

Oh and I haven't use a spring lever but if my shots were looking like that and I wasn't happy with them I'd pre-infuse for less time, probably no more than 10 seconds.


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## Mrboots2u

> 34 minutes ago, Cuprajake said:


 Bitter doesn't always mean over extracted worth bearing in mind and at 1:2 I'd be you a tenner it isn't


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## cuprajake

Another go,

Slowly slowly catchy monkey






Appreciate people following along and helping or laughing, @Rob1 i wanted the lever before the minima, but mrs pulled her face, hence the minima.

But my heart won out, but now my heads peed off 🤣🤣


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## TomHughes

> 10 hours ago, Cuprajake said:
> 
> Another go,
> 
> Slowly slowly catchy monkey


 Have you considered it's more your grinder/distribution rather than the machine? That shot looks all ways of wonk to me.


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## cuprajake

Yeah i know its 100% me, ive never said it was the machine.

Its just frustrating when people tell you how amazing these machines are yet ive never suffered any of these prep issues with any pump machines.

The shots are getting better now the bore is cleaner, the shower screen went in further.


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## cuprajake

@TomHughes grinders a near new aligned mazzer major with ti burrs, so its not that 🤣


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## Jony

New burrs need to settle down maybe 10 kilos.


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## cuprajake

There not brand new its a 2019 model, so im presuming there run in ish, depends how long it was used before covid closed the cafe lol


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## Dallah

@Cuprajake if you are trying to settle in a new grinder, as well as developing totally new skills, having never used a lever machine before, are you perhaps being too hard on yourself?

It's a totally new world for you, take your time and be patient with yourself.


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## urbanbumpkin

Why don't you try WDT on a shot (to rule out distribution issues)?


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## TomHughes

Cuprajake said:


> @TomHughes grinders a near new aligned mazzer major with ti burrs, so its not that 🤣


 Presumably you're hopper dosing and purging it? Or purging all retention between each shot change?


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## cuprajake

Ive had the grinder a bit now, its been doserless modded
View attachment 53851


And has worked well so far, i know its all on me.

I have a few tools at my disposal, my home made wdt, the londinium wdt, a spinning distribution tool and a 58.5mm tamper,

Ive been using the stock ridged basket to aid with prep as im pretty sure the ims would be a squirter🤣🤣🤣

Its just getting used to is as i understand it, while if will pre infusion for 5-7s at 1.3bar the puck then gets slammed with 9 bars, where a pump machine will slowly ramp up being more gentle on the puck.

Heres this morning's effort 14g>26g

Actually the nicest tasting shot so far, despite the obs lack of sweating


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## TomHughes

> 23 minutes ago, Cuprajake said:
> 
> Ive had the grinder a bit now, its been doserless modded
> View attachment 53851
> 
> 
> And has worked well so far, i know its all on me.
> 
> I have a few tools at my disposal, my home made wdt, the londinium wdt, a spinning distribution tool and a 58.5mm tamper,
> 
> Ive been using the stock ridged basket to aid with prep as im pretty sure the ims would be a squirter🤣🤣🤣
> 
> Its just getting used to is as i understand it, while if will pre infusion for 5-7s at 1.3bar the puck then gets slammed with 9 bars, where a pump machine will slowly ramp up being more gentle on the puck.
> 
> Heres this morning's effort 14g>26g
> 
> Actually the nicest tasting shot so far, despite the obs lack of sweating


 Fair enough. But some of your old shots on the minima were as bad, visually at least. So I'm gonna go with retained grinds etc. Yes you can mod a MM for single dosing but it still retains serious grinds and I think has quite a large particle distribution range. Maybe a niche would be better served if you plan on single dosing?

one potential method of testing this is sticking a cut aeropress filter paper at the bottom of the basket, then putting the coffee on top. Making sure not to disturb it if doing wdt. This should stop any fines blocking the holes. And if they are you need to find out why. Either it's from tapping the PF. Or the grinder is producing excessive fines from things like outlet obstruction


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## cuprajake

@TomHughes

Technically the first perge of the day is the mrs brew


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## profesor_historia

Cuprajake said:


> @TomHughes
> Technically the first perge of the day is the mrs brew


In my case too!


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## Instant no more !

> 47 minutes ago, Cuprajake said:
> 
> Ive had the grinder a bit now, its been doserless modded
> View attachment 53851
> 
> 
> And has worked well so far, i know its all on me.
> 
> I have a few tools at my disposal, my home made wdt, the londinium wdt, a spinning distribution tool and a 58.5mm tamper,
> 
> Ive been using the stock ridged basket to aid with prep as im pretty sure the ims would be a squirter🤣🤣🤣
> 
> Its just getting used to is as i understand it, while if will pre infusion for 5-7s at 1.3bar the puck then gets slammed with 9 bars, where a pump machine will slowly ramp up being more gentle on the puck.
> 
> Heres this morning's effort 14g>26g
> 
> Actually the nicest tasting shot so far, despite the obs lack of sweating


 That looks stonking , almost like thick chocolate , YUM


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## cuprajake

The result was this


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## Instant no more !

Cuprajake said:


> The result was this
> View attachment 54344


 One question re the video , Why did you stop the pour and slide the cup out ?


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## cuprajake

@Instant no more ! with the levers the pour continues, so with a pump machine you turn off to stop with a lever you move the cup🤣


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## DavecUK

> 2 hours ago, Cuprajake said:
> 
> Ive had the grinder a bit now, its been doserless modded
> View attachment 53851
> 
> 
> And has worked well so far, i know its all on me.
> 
> I have a few tools at my disposal, my home made wdt, the londinium wdt, a spinning distribution tool and a 58.5mm tamper,
> 
> Ive been using the stock ridged basket to aid with prep as im pretty sure the ims would be a squirter🤣🤣🤣
> 
> Its just getting used to is as i understand it, while if will pre infusion for 5-7s at 1.3bar the puck then gets slammed with 9 bars, where a pump machine will slowly ramp up being more gentle on the puck.
> 
> Heres this morning's effort 14g>26g
> 
> Actually the nicest tasting shot so far, despite the obs lack of sweating


 Looks like your getting there Jake... 👍


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## cuprajake

Yeah bit by bit, just adjusting grind atm


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## Marocchino

Cuprajake said:


> Yeah bit by bit, just adjusting grind atm


 With all your testing and tasting, how's your hearing at the moment 🤔😊

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/58623-coffeeprevents-hearing-loss/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=827148&embedComment=827148&embedDo=findComment#comment-827148


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## cuprajake




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## Jony

Yeah when I watched the video nearly dropped my phone 🤣


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## cuprajake

@Jony i know get rid of one pump machine for another, in all seriousness once we finally move home, im going to plumb it in.


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## cuprajake

Ive been talking with @coffeechap over the last few days, and his help and knowledge has basically stopped me wanting to sell the machine.

Hes also offered to walk me through plumbing in when the time comes


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## urbanbumpkin

Coffeechap is the mythical lever legend!!!
Although I did hear he was now working for Rave Coffee


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## The Systemic Kid

@Cuprajake what were the timings of those shots - not clear how long you were pre-infusing. More importantly, what did the taste like. Watching the videos, the extractions looked excellent - very balanced flow across the basket.

First cup has plenty of tiger striping - what level of roast were the beans?

If you want feedback on how well your extractions, let the puck cool a little in the portafilter then tip it out and break in half and examine. If you've got any darker patches, you've got uneven extraction. If colour is uniform, you're bang on. My money's on the latter.


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## cuprajake

@The Systemic Kid yeah most are good,

Ive been trying to pi no longer than 10 seconds as you've told me about stalling the Syphon.

The shots this morning were all a local company roast med dark, only 5 days off roast but seems easier to work with than the Northstar and blackcat med roast ive been working with, prob more soluble.

Im still getting a few wrong,

The ones this morning have been the nicest ones ive pulled so far, nothing sour so really happy with those, sweet after taste too. 😁

Think im more suited to the Original londinium roast profile than the fancy new light roasts, 😂


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## The Systemic Kid

Think you might have something there Jake.


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## The Systemic Kid

If you're leaning towards original Londinium roast profile, you're not going to like what's coming next. You might want to give a conical a go. Be good if you could experiment with one to see if you like the difference. Having used a series 1 Londinium with Londinium beans through a conical grinder, the results were very satisfying - loads of body, great mouthfeel/texture and layered notes including sweetness.


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## cuprajake

@The Systemic Kid










Theres a robur on eBay ???????????? or a £900 niche


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## Jony

🤣🤣


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## The Systemic Kid

Be great if there was someone with a conical, like the Niche, who could help out with a bit of testing.


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## 4085

Hi Jake, here is my tuppence worth! The Major is a good grinder without doubt. What I am going to say next, I cannot back up with any data or science. Over the years, I have often been able to have multiple bits of kit and that allows you to experiment. I let my tastebuds do the talking, and every time I have put a big flat against a conical, the latter wins. I recently had a Clima Pro up against the Niche for several months. I am now retired and really wanted to stop amassing kit and settle down. I choose the Niche over the CP.

I have a theory. A lever plus a darker bean is suited to a conical more than a flat, in my humble. I also think, that lever users drinking darker beans should stick to blends and not SO. SO beans tend to have characteristics that a flat burr can enhance and select more, like acidity. A conical does not do acidity!

This is all about you getting the best out of your equipment and it might just be, that the weak link in your current chain is your grinder. I am not suggesting that you run out and buy a conical, but if you tell folks whereabouts you are, someone may help you out.

Question, how many EK owners are there on the forum, and of those, how many drink darker roasts?


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## Baffo

@Cuprajake I can only speak from what I've read, rather than experience, but from the pics it seems you're pulling short ratios, which is maybe not playing to the strengths of your grinder.

These two videos have been very informative, and (among other things) explain how some grinders (notably, conicals) can taste better at shorter ratios than others, and vice versa.

TL;DR your grinder is awesome but you might be not brewing in line with its strengths. Not according to me, I am just a newbie, but according to people who know loads.


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## cuprajake

ive seen both those haha

i also take alot of grinder talk with some salt, simply due to most not really being able to agree whats what in terms,

ratio wise, im only putting 14g in so 28g out is 1;2

arguably though, the best pulls ive had have been with my loacl roasters med/dark bean. not with the so beans from northstar.

i am going in the right direction, the issue i have is one person will say conical has better grind distribution, the next will say flat does.

i was going to get a niche, i didnt have a brill experience with the one i bought used.

conical wise, theres really not much to choose from though. i wont be changing the grinder just yet..


----------



## Baffo

Cuprajake said:


> ive seen both those haha
> 
> i also take alot of grinder talk with some salt, simply due to most not really being able to agree whats what in terms,
> 
> ratio wise, im only putting 14g in so 28g out is 1;2
> 
> arguably though, the best pulls ive had have been with my loacl roasters med/dark bean. not with the so beans from northstar.
> 
> i am going in the right direction, the issue i have is one person will say conical has better grind distribution, the next will say flat does.
> 
> i was going to get a niche, i didnt have a brill experience with the one i bought used.
> 
> conical wise, theres really not much to choose from though. i wont be changing the grinder just yet..


 Try 1:2.5 or even 3 with the Northstar perhaps? I've been pulling medium / medium light roasts for a few weeks now and they tended to be pretty awful at short ratios. Of course it's my experience with my grinder, with my machine, with my puck prep, but still..


----------



## cuprajake

your going to struggle with those ratios on a l1


----------



## Baffo

Cuprajake said:


> your going to struggle with those ratios on a l1


 Ach. Sounds like an uphill battle for medium to light roasts. 😅 But looking forward to seeing where more practice brings you!


----------



## The Systemic Kid

As I recall, Londinium brew chamber takes 60ml. Allowing for puck saturation, you're not going to get much more than 45ml out depending on dose weight. I regularly pull 40ml from 17.5-18grms but wouldn't want to go much, if any, beyond that as you are just adding tails to your shot.

Jake - if you haven't - keeping all variables the same - try pulling a shot into three espresso cups or glasses - a third in each and then taste them in turn.


----------



## 4085

Jake, all people can do is give you generalised pointers based on their own understanding/experience. No matter whose advice you take, there is still a degree of personalisation required by you. and thats the difficult part. Switching to a lever from a pump is a learning journey. It takes time. The best advice I have seen here, is try to adjust one variable at a time. I know I have said it already, but when using the Mythos and Niche at the same time, with the same bean, taste wise, the results were always very different


----------



## cuprajake

can we keep the arguing out the thread please or ill just ask for it to be locked,

only variable atm is the grind size, same dose, same prep etc.

im not a massive fan of very fruity espresso, i prefer it through a purover,

the lr have a propper pre infusion more suited to a light roast, as above you only have a fixed amount of water,


----------



## cuprajake

im actually getting a bit of a flow going,

i used to split shots for me and the mrs, esp in the morning as she'd have a milk drink, id either have a smaller milk drink or an amercano, but that would be a 40g shot say.

now though i:

weigh 14g of beans and dose, weigh another 14g ready,

grind/distribute/tamp and pull a shot into a warmed cup,

then i have a second basket, so dump the first one and use the second, for the same process.

steam milk and make two drinks, and a bit of clean up, its not added real if any time as with the minima i had to wait 5mins for the service boiler to get to temp...

i have however this morning had my first pf depressurisation lol


----------



## TomHughes

Cuprajake said:


> im actually getting a bit of a flow going,
> 
> i used to split shots for me and the mrs, esp in the morning as she'd have a milk drink, id either have a smaller milk drink or an amercano, but that would be a 40g shot say.
> 
> now though i:
> 
> weigh 14g of beans and dose, weigh another 14g ready,
> 
> grind/distribute/tamp and pull a shot into a warmed cup,
> 
> then i have a second basket, so dump the first one and use the second, for the same process.
> 
> steam milk and make two drinks, and a bit of clean up, its not added real if any time as with the minima i had to wait 5mins for the service boiler to get to temp...
> 
> i have however this morning had my first pf depressurisation lol


 What ratio are you currently at? And have you tried just letting all the liquid run into the cup rather than putting the spoon under?

Reason I ask is because I have a Pavoni which is limited to about 1;3, so 13g in and about 40g out.
I find fruity beans just too powerful and fruit forward on this, but interestingly if I just sample the last 10g or so it tastes super sweet as those notes are starting to come out but are dominated by the fruity acidity.

Part of the reason I am doing up my classic is to experiment with longer ratios for these beans.

Is there a way of getting upwards of 1:4 with an LR? I'm guessing not.


----------



## Marocchino

TomHughes said:


> s there a way of getting upwards of 1:4 with an LR? I'm guessing not.


 60ml is the cylinder capacity figure that Reiss quotes for the LR in his support forum


----------



## cuprajake

i believe you can double pump, but im not messing with that yet haha

i have sad to say, sipped from the spoon lol 14g in 28g out ish atm


----------



## 4085

TomHughes said:


> Is there a way of getting upwards of 1:4 with an LR? I'm guessing not.


 Sure is, use a single 7 gram basket


----------



## TomHughes

Cuprajake said:


> i believe you can double pump, but im not messing with that yet haha
> 
> *i have sad to say, sipped from the spoon lol 14g in 28g out ish atm *


 What did it taste like?

I do a pre-shower with my pavoni, allowing a slightly longer shot. Not sure that's possible with the LR though.


----------



## cuprajake

mines a lowly l1, tasted blerk


----------



## TomHughes

Cuprajake said:


> mines a lowly l1, tasted blerk


 Blerk?


----------



## cuprajake

its a very technical term, when you taste something, makes your eyes water and you go 'blerk'


----------



## cuprajake




----------



## TomHughes

Are we talking the darker ones or the fruity sweet numbers? I was referring to the fruity/sweet.


----------



## cuprajake

they would of been north star med roast, iirc had cherry notes


----------



## TomHughes

Cuprajake said:


> they would of been north star med roast, iirc had cherry notes


 Interesting. 
Part of the reason I have followed this is I was thinking about getting a Londiunium, as I really like my Pavoni. But a limitation to only 60ml or so is the main issue I have with the pavoni (not sure exactly the group volume).

I have tried a few fruitier beans from black cat recently, and with the ratio of the la pavoni I was topping out around 1:3. Which was just too tart for me.

I tried it on the classic and ran it to 1:5 and it was beautifully sweet, although lacking a little in body.


----------



## cuprajake

tbh, i didnt research enough the shot volume either


----------



## Baffo

TomHughes said:


> Interesting.
> Part of the reason I have followed this is I was thinking about getting a Londiunium, as I really like my Pavoni. But a limitation to only 60ml or so is the main issue I have with the pavoni (not sure exactly the group volume).
> 
> I have tried a few fruitier beans from black cat recently, and with the ratio of the la pavoni I was topping out around 1:3. Which was just too tart for me.
> 
> I tried it on the classic and ran it to 1:5 and it was beautifully sweet, although lacking a little in body.


 This is similar to what I've been discussing in my thread in the "Beans" section. Some of the fruitier beans have shown (some?) of their true nature to me only after 1:3. I haven't gone to 1:5 yet but can't wait to try, very curious.


----------



## TomHughes

Cuprajake said:


> tbh, i didnt research enough the shot volume either


 We all miss things. But sometimes we think things are more of a problem than they are. 
Did you see my post on psychology of upgrading a while back? I.e. that greater happiness comes from solving a problem rather than trying to gain something better.

I guess the question you have to ask yourself, and via help of others, are you after a better taste and espresso from a bean that NEEDs a longer ratio? 
If not then happy days. 
However if you are going to limit yourself to beans that don't need that (when in the back of your mind you want to have that longer ratio bean) then there is only 1 thing you are going to need to do to be happy..

It sucks, but sometimes you have to be brutal.

FWIW I really like that same fruity bean on my pavoni as a flat white. The intense fruitness is beautiful through a bit of milk, whereas, on the classic it was a bit meh. 
So for me I'm ok with the pavoni for this reason.


----------



## cuprajake

yeah i get that,

if i want fruity id rather have it in a pour over, i think my tendency is more to a med dark as an espresso so in theory the l1 should suit me, i feel that down the rd i may want fruity espresso, but i very rarely drink them neat, im getting better at accepting espresso neat though, and i can start to appreciate the flavours


----------



## mathof

Cuprajake said:


> @The Systemic Kid I've been trying to pi no longer than 10 seconds as you've told me about stalling the Syphon.
> 
> Stalling the syphon won't affect the results in the cup. Once you've lifted the piston above the water inlet jets, the cylinder above the puck will fill up; and no more water will be added to that shot after the puck is fully soaked.
> 
> The stall, if there is one, will be eliminated by performing a short cleaning flush after you've finished pulling the shot. With light roasts, I almost always preinfuse for longer than 10 seconds, but as I do cleaning flushes as a matter of course, I never see thermosyphon stalls (or coffee sticking to the shower screen).


 Sa


----------



## cuprajake

ive been told of it, app it was an issue with the first owners trying to pre infuse too long, as the lever interrupts the syphon


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Cuprajake said:


> ive been told of it, app it was an issue with the first owners trying to pre infuse too long, as the lever interrupts the syphon


 Reiss had a lot of grief from an American expert who questioned the Londinium's thermal stability. Turned out, if memory serves, the guy was pre-infusing for way too long causing the thermosyphon to stall. Guy hooked a Scace to his Londinium showing big drops in temp over quite a long period.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

As Mathof says - it's no big deal if the thermosyphon stalls which I've only experienced once of twice in many years - just flush the group but that does have the outcome of raising its temp possibly over optimum until it settles back down.


----------



## Rincewind

Cuprajake said:


> i have however this morning had my first pf depressurisation lol


 have you *done the other one* that'll really make yer jump...i.e. *let go of the lever without anything in* the PF or no PF locked in ??....that one gets yer heart-rate up a tad :classic_smile:


----------



## cuprajake

@Rincewind


----------



## Jony

Haha


----------



## cuprajake

So seems im getting somewhere now,

I feel choice of bean is certainly helping, going med/dark a loacl roast ive used for a while really compliments the londinium.

Heres another vid

Ignore the audio 😂






And in the cup


----------



## Marocchino

Cuprajake said:


> Heres another vid


 Looking good 👍
Hope it tasted good too.


----------



## Baffo

Probably I'm the only one who would do this, but I happened to be on the couch and YT suggested this..


----------



## cuprajake




----------



## Baffo

Unacceptable lack of Londinium content @Cuprajake, the peoples need to know what's happening


----------



## cuprajake

Yep makes cracking espresso, really happy with it now ive learnt how to use it

Cba with the forum atm, so not really botherd to update anything


----------



## Baffo

Cuprajake said:


> Yep makes cracking espresso, really happy with it now ive learnt how to use it
> 
> Cba with the forum atm, so not really botherd to update anything


 Yeh, thought so. It's a bit heavy sometimes.

Well, happy to hear you're now getting along well with the machine.


----------



## coffeechap

So happy you are now really enjoying your L1 @Cuprajakejust needed a different approach to the minima. Some of those pictures are stunning in terms of the quality of the shot, hope you continue to enjoy it.


----------



## cuprajake

once its explained and you know the limits of the machine it all falls into place, wierdly theres not lots of youtube stuff to learn, its mainly god shots haha


----------



## cuprajake

in terms of my l1,

i was planning on plumbing in, but id need, water filters, fittings, pipe work, leak detector and ultimately cutting of a holes in the new kitchen top....so for now ill carry on using the tank and make my own recipe water.

things im planing:

new cafelet silicon seal set, the non gen set that came with dont seem brilliant,

new shower screen

new dual spout pf head

and possible some new wood

ive learnt if you grind too fine, its messy

bar that im happy with it, slight change in work flow,but the milk performance is immense


----------



## Rincewind

Cuprajake said:


> and possible some new wood


 What kind/type of wood ? ....MildredM had some gorgeous looking wood made by a friend iirc....can't remember the name/type but it was breathtaking to look at.



Cuprajake said:


> the milk performance is immense


 yepp....you can sculpt the damn stuff 😎


----------



## Marocchino

Rincewind said:


> What kind/type of wood ?


 Thuya Burr


----------



## cuprajake

@Rincewind i could tell you but then id have to kill you


----------



## Rincewind

Cuprajake said:


> i could tell you but then id have to kill you


 join the que :classic_wink:


----------



## cuprajake

Fresh seals installed


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Notice any difference to bite point, Jake?


----------



## cuprajake

@The Systemic Kid just fitted them, so machines still warming. I'll let you know though.

The seals that came with the machine were not genuine so not sure how good they were, fingers crossed these will be great


----------



## cuprajake

So the lever seems to grab near the same. Poss tiny bit lower, but not really noticeable.

The pf is tighter in the group also, happy up grade

Next to find a new dual spout pf head


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Same experience as yours, Jake, when I fitted silicone seals. Bite point was more or less the same.


----------



## Jony

Cuprajake said:


> So the lever seems to grab near the same. Poss tiny bit lower, but not really noticeable.
> 
> The pf is tighter in the group also, happy up grade
> 
> Next to find a new dual spout pf head


 What size is it. Might have a brand new one here.


----------



## cuprajake

@Jony im not actually sure, there a different shape to the e61

Heres a pic


----------



## Jony

Mine are 3 on the Vostok, just thought they was the same. Order time I presume 😂😂


----------



## coffeechap

Cuprajake said:


> So the lever seems to grab near the same. Poss tiny bit lower, but not really noticeable.
> 
> The pf is tighter in the group also, happy up grade
> 
> Next to find a new dual spout pf head


 I will have one for you, drop us your addy and I'll send you one


----------



## cuprajake

Wow thank you, ill pm you shortly


----------



## Jony

Cuprajake said:


> Wow thank you, ill pm you shortly


 Ohh not bad, 😁


----------



## cuprajake

True overwhelmed by the generosity of people some times ♥


----------



## cuprajake

Well today we said goodbye to our house, been there 15yrs, two children later, we needed a bigger house.

So new coffee corner.


----------



## Jony

Great news and in tough times, which way did you move, further away or closer to healy corner😁


----------



## cuprajake

@Jony street below🤣🤣


----------



## Jony

Cuprajake said:


> @Jony street below🤣🤣


 Haha OK. Lever going well then I'm got issues steaming milk, the wand is different, not sure if I've had a flat white yet 😂


----------



## cuprajake

Yeah going well now ive learnt how to use it.

Its a 4 hole tip, ive tamed it now


----------



## Jony

Good getting there then.


----------



## cuprajake

So bit of an update.

I put the l1 for sale as i had bought the crem pressure profile machine, it arrived faulty so it went back, a couple weeks passed and i ordered a lr24. Also faulty, thats waiting to go back,

I bought my self some shiney ssp burrs for the major,

Anywho. Put the l1 back on the bench and two shots in, the opv went. Needed a new pressure switch

So ordered the switch, opv and anti vac

Waiting for them to ship, but took the old off

View attachment 57835


was happy to see the insides looking good

View attachment 57836


----------



## 4085

@Cuprajake that's the benefit of using good quality water!


----------



## DavecUK

@Cuprajake Looks nice and clean inside.


----------



## cuprajake

Yeah well the water it was run on with norvin was soft and i use rodi with it, so no chance of scale with that


----------



## Norvin

Cuprajake said:


> Yeah well the water it was run on with norvin was soft and i use rodi with it, so no chance of scale with that


 I ran it for about two years with water from my well which has no scale at all in it.


----------



## cuprajake

Goes to show the importance of good water really.


----------



## 27852

Cuprajake said:


> Goes to show the importance of good water really.


 For sure, I just tested KH and GH out of my hot water tap - identical to the input figures and I've had the machine since late Feb.


----------



## cuprajake

So im pretty much decided to keep the l1, with the amazing luck ive had buying new.

Good thing with londinium is you can buy all/most the parts.

So got some polish out and used a bit of elbow grease
























.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@Cuprajake - Jake, that looks fantastic! When you have the parts, sit back, relax and start enjoying your journey again. You had quite a rough ride!


----------



## HVL87

Cuprajake said:


> So im pretty much decided to keep the l1, with the amazing luck ive had buying new.
> 
> Good thing with londinium is you can buy all/most the parts.
> 
> So got some polish out and used a bit of elbow grease
> View attachment 57848
> View attachment 57849
> View attachment 57850
> View attachment 57851
> .


 Where are the after pics? 😄


----------



## Rhys

Think my avatar sums it up lol


----------



## cuprajake

Rhys said:


> Think my avatar sums it up lol


 M'kay ????


----------



## cuprajake

So i want another naked pf, but ill be damed if im paying another £80 for one.

Is it just a bosco group so i can find a pf head?


----------



## Rhys

You'd think Londimium would choose to use a standard portafilter with the lugs in the right place... Nooooo... :classic_rolleyes:


----------



## cuprajake

I would mind if they sold just the head of the pf, but you have to buy it with the wood, but you can get the wood separate 🤔


----------



## cuprajake

Box of goodies came, so set about fitting some, still have the seals to do


----------



## 4085

@Cuprajake the advantage of using DHL!


----------



## cuprajake

Haha usually, dhl took the lr24 back today.

This little lot actually came from coffeechap as hes closer, and quicker for shipping.

Installed the seals and ran up to temp, no leaks, not sure the anti vac is 100%


----------



## cuprajake

Will let the machine cool till morning then fire it back up


----------



## DavecUK

Cuprajake said:


> I would mind if they sold just the head of the pf, but you have to buy it with the wood, but you can get the wood separate 🤔











They do sell them...should cost you from £15-18

It's a Brazilia 8B51


----------



## cuprajake

Ahhh,

Im going to look for a naked one then, saves diy the stock twin spout

The new anti vac wasnt sealing well. So put the old in.

Hows best to leak test? Obs cant put water on the joints as it boils off🤣🤦


----------



## Marocchino

Cuprajake said:


> Ahhh,
> 
> Im going to look for a naked one then, saves diy the stock twin spout
> 
> The new anti vac wasnt sealing well. So put the old in.
> 
> Hows best to leak test? Obs cant put water on the joints as it boils off🤣🤦


 Read somewhere that you can listen for steam leaks using the inner card tube from a roll of kitchen paper.

Out of curiosity, what thread sealer did you use on your fittings?


----------



## cuprajake

I haven't used any. Should i? Sadly i got banned from the londinium forum when i said i wanted a refund....so cant access any info.

The other two have crush washers.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Cuprajake said:


> Sadly i got banned from the londinium forum when i said i wanted a refund....so cant access any info.


 Surely, that's a mistake? Reiss has a high reputation for going the extra mile to help Londinium owners. Does Reiss know you also own an L1 which entitles you to be a member of the Londinium forum.


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

Cuprajake said:


> Ahhh,
> 
> Im going to look for a naked one then, saves diy the stock twin spout
> 
> The new anti vac wasnt sealing well. So put the old in.
> 
> Hows best to leak test? Obs cant put water on the joints as it boils off🤣🤦


 Loctite 577 will seal problem joints when PTFE doesn't quite cut it. Expensive though.


----------



## cuprajake

Im not sure if its leaking or not, prob just me. The heating cycle does seem to be what it should be, stepped pressure down to 1.1bar and its over a minute cycle now.


----------



## 4085

The Systemic Kid said:


> Surely, that's a mistake? Reiss has a high reputation for going the extra mile to help Londinium owners. Does Reiss know you also own an L1 which entitles you to be a member of the Londinium forum.


 I own an L1 as well, but I was also banned from the forum......odd that considering Londiniums alleged high customer service and satisfaction records eh!


----------



## Marocchino

Echoing TSK's comments - if you let Reiss know you're an L1 owner then your forum access should be sorted out.

Regarding threadlock, I have read on the L forum of LOXEAL 55-03 being used on threaded joints.


----------



## DavecUK

Cuprajake said:


> Ahhh,
> 
> Im going to look for a naked one then, saves diy the stock twin spout
> 
> The new anti vac wasnt sealing well. So put the old in.
> 
> Hows best to leak test? Obs cant put water on the joints as it boils off🤣🤦


 When you put the new anti vac in, did you use PTFE tape...although not a sealant as such (it's purpose is actually for tapered threads, I find enough turns on these coarser espresso machine threads (wrapped in the right direction) to make them tightish all the way in, invariably provides a leak free joint....usually that's 5 to 7 turns depending on the tape. The fitting shouldn't be tightened down hard using this method, just maximum threads engaged is all that's required.

You can use Loctite...the correct food grade one, but many of these thread lockers/sealers, are really hard to get off. ACS use Sigilant...which provides for a softer set. The best way to leak test, or hear a leak, next time you are in the DIY store, gram 1 metre of 8 or 10mm ID poly tube and use that. You can stand clear and put the end right near the leak...you will hear everything. I find 10 mm inner works best.











Cuprajake said:


> I haven't used any. Should i? Sadly i got banned from the londinium forum when i said i wanted a refund....so cant access any info.


 As Patrick said, surely a mistake, he must not realise you also have an L1. I am sure removing your access to specific Londinium support is not something he would want to do.* If he reads this forum, he will probably become aware you have an L1 and unban you. *If not, you still have lots of knowledgable support on here...the L1 is a very basic machine and not Rocket science. In fact you could say it's a modders paradise, should you wish to upgrade things....

e.g. choose the right SSR and it's an easy upgrade to go for a small cheap £15 stat that is pretty much noiseless, but use the SSR to switch power to the heating elements....


----------



## cuprajake

Sorry should of said it was leaking from the centre, so the actual pop up part not the threads, the crush washers have sealed the threads so to speak.

Think i was to over checking. Cycles perfect now.

Just need a blue led🤣 pop


----------



## Marocchino

DavecUK said:


> did you use PTFE tape...although not a sealant as such (it's purpose is actually for tapered threads
> 
> You can use Loctite...the correct food grade one


 Just putting this out there as I've often thought about this - I know plumbers use PTFE tape on potable water installations. I just wondered whether it's use has been scientifically proven to be food safe in applications approaching boiling point?


----------



## DavecUK

Marocchino said:


> Echoing TSK's comments - if you let Reiss know you're an L1 owner then your forum access should be sorted out.
> 
> Regarding threadlock, I have read on the L forum of LOXEAL 55-03 being used on threaded joints.


 http://www.loxeal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/WRAS-Loxeal-55-03-01.2024.pdf

WRAS approved up to 85C....way below the minimum safe operating temp of 200C for PTFE tapes.



Marocchino said:


> Just putting this out there as I've often thought about this - I know plumbers use PTFE tape on potable water installations. I just wondered whether it's use has been scientifically proven to be food safe in applications approaching boiling point?


 https://uk.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=ideas-and-advice/ptfe-tapes-guide

You always have to be guided by your own personal preferences though.


----------



## Marocchino

DavecUK said:


> You always have to be guided by your own personal preferences though.


 Those links, I've seen before.

Agree with your point above - and it's one of the principles I use to live by.


----------



## DavecUK

Marocchino said:


> Those links, I've seen before.


 I'm surprised you recommended Loxeal and asked about PTFE, if you already knew about those links and presumably the many others.


----------



## Marocchino

When I entered duck duck for PTFE tape temp it came up as one of the hits. Used to RS data sheets. Also Loxeal since I use the grease I've checked on them too.


----------



## cuprajake

Yeah i found the 111 grease very glue like, the loxseal is more runny


----------



## DavecUK

Cuprajake said:


> Yeah i found the 111 grease very glue like, the loxseal is more runny


 111 is very good at hanging around in hot wet environments...


----------



## El carajillo

Marocchino said:


> Just putting this out there as I've often thought about this - I know plumbers use PTFE tape on potable water installations. I just wondered whether it's use has been scientifically proven to be food safe in applications approaching boiling point?


 Suitable jointing paste for potable water (non setting, high temperature and pressure).


----------



## danielpugh

El carajillo said:


> A suitable paste for threads, non setting, high temperature and pressure also for potable / drinking water.
> View attachment 57907


 Absolutely not an expert, but Google says max temperature of 120 Deg c

https://www.fixmart.co.uk/prod/jet-lube-v2-multi-purpose-joint-compound

[Doh]just read second picture - strange but ignore me!


----------



## cuprajake

Looks good stuff,

Mines behaving itself.

With the new stat fitted and pressure dropped to 1.1 bar its a good cycle


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Running perfectly, Jake. Pressurestat kicks in as it should every couple of minutes give or take a few seconds.


----------



## cuprajake

Wanted a second naked pf so i converted the stock twin spout


----------



## cuprajake

couple of vids to show the difference between a med light and med dark on the old l1






Was going to go all out on a machine, decided against it with the recent luck, i then looked at grinders but £1500 plus wouldn't really see me much in the cup, and as much as i fancied the new weber key, just couldn't justify it.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

With the lighter roast, your PI Jake was around 13 secs? Out of curiosity, have you tried even longer and, if so, experienced thermosyphon stall? Guessing around 13 secs is sweet spot for Londinium I?


----------



## cuprajake

I've never had stall but ive never dared go longer than a 10sec count haha


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@Cuprajake - really like your grinding routine, and the whole routine overall. Nice, tidy, methodical and precise. Looks like you've nailed it. 👍


----------



## danielpugh

Good to see the L1 sorted!


----------



## cuprajake

yeah its working better than ever now haha

ive just ordered the updated front panel with the pressed logo, to replace the etched version, and a new drip tray and grate, oh and the two led for the pump(blue) and heater (red) ive replaced the white led, then the blue blew, so only a matter of time for the red hahaha


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake said:


> ive just ordered the updated front panel...


 I give you a few months and there'll be a video (from you!) on how to fit the pre-infusion pump + transducer to an L1 🙂

Enjoy the machine! 👍


----------



## danielpugh

Nice! I'm overhauling my old faithful while waiting for the new one. Patience required!

Still sitting out the new grinder in the same way as feeling skint. Almost tempted by the kopi (battery) Kickstarter


----------



## 4085

@Cuprajake With the benefit of hindsight then Jake, and as a user who seems comfortable slipping between light medium to medium roasts, if the original older style of L1 able to satisfy (now that you seem to have mastered its full potential) then is there really a need for anyone to progress onto the LR or LR24?


----------



## cuprajake

No not really, part of the whole upgrade was me wanting brand new, always had used,



MediumRoastSteam said:


> I give you a few months and there'll be a video (from you!) on how to fit the pre-infusion pump + transducer to an L1 🙂
> 
> Enjoy the machine! 👍


 I wish. App its a totally different boiler haha


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

dfk41 said:


> original older style of L1


 Does this machine have a tank or is plumbed in only?


----------



## cuprajake

has the option for both but its tank fed atm.


----------



## cuprajake

New tamper turned up, i really fancied a force tamper. There not cheap one bit but super impressed with it.

Also got a copy weber tumbler. Thats pretty useless 😂


----------



## DavecUK

@Cuprajake is the knock off tumbler useless because it's a knock off...or is the Lyn Weber tumbler concept flawed?


----------



## cuprajake

Poss because its a copy.

Never seen a weber one in person.

The central hole in it is prob only 40mm so kinda pointless. Id image a weber hole to be larger.

£17 down the drain. Can use ot for something no doubt.

I have a funnel coming for the mazzer next week as i love the look of it. So wanted the tumbler to make work flow easier as i dont think a naked pf would sit under well,


----------



## danielpugh

I had a similar one. Just didn't feel right to me. In my assorted junk box ever since along with one of those distribution tools.


----------



## Rob1

The knock offs aren't different really, they might not sit in the basket as well with a little less metal making up the lip but the size of the opening is the same. I would agree they're fairly useless. They look cool and they make a nice sound when you lift the plunger and swing it around the inside of the tumbler, but you're better off just grinding directly into the basket with a funnel.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

DavecUK said:


> @Cuprajake is the knock off tumbler useless because it's a knock off...or is the Lyn Weber tumbler concept flawed?


 I liked the Weber blind tumbler when I had a HG One.


----------



## 4085

@Cuprajake All I want to know is does the copy have the wonderful Zen ding when you knock the plug against the side!


----------



## cuprajake




----------



## 4085

Can someone post an original......? That sounds good but unless my ears are wrong a very different note!


----------



## cuprajake

@Rob1 im still to find a good funnel that fits the basket without going into the grounds.


----------



## Rob1

@Cuprajake is it not a standard portafilter size 58mm?


----------



## cuprajake

Yeah. I mean one that doesnt sit inside the basket leaving a ring in the grounds


----------



## Stevebee

Decent, Tidaka to name but a few


----------



## cuprajake

Well the decent is £130 del so that is a hell no 😂 ill have a look at the other ta.


----------



## lake_m

Cuprajake said:


> Well the decent is £130 del so that is a hell no 😂 ill have a look at the other ta.


 Here's the knock off version - £15.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Espresso-Stainless-Brewing-Machine-Replacement/dp/B07PF2473H/ref=sr_1_10?dchild=1&keywords=58mm+dosing+funnel&qid=1624569433&sr=8-10


----------



## cuprajake

Thats one of the ones i have. There non magnatised


----------



## cuprajake

My funnel arrived today

a








Then the correct order from londinium. The grate









Bit annoyed with londinium really as i had to pay to send thier mistake back., Didn't even get a thank you.

Im tempted to sell the londinium just so i dont have to deal with them any longer.





















jake


----------



## danielpugh

Looking shiny!


----------



## DavecUK

Cuprajake said:


> Bit annoyed with londinium really as i had to pay to send thier mistake back., Didn't even get a thank you.
> 
> Im tempted to sell the londinium just so i dont have to deal with them any longer.


 Regardless of what happened It looks like you have the machine as you want it..., enjoy using at and as it's industry standard parts, don't actually need to go to Londinium for very much if anything. So It would seem best to forget what happened and just enjoy the machine.


----------



## cuprajake

So im hoping the replacement for the londinium will be here tomorrow in one piece.

Ive ordered a lelit bianca from Bella barista


----------



## danielpugh

I'm keeping my fingers crossed - you are due some good luck!


----------



## cuprajake

Thanks me too🤣


----------



## danielpugh

In case it helps I'm equally cursed - for me anything involving technology either constantly breaks or I break it.


----------



## lake_m

Cuprajake said:


> So im hoping the replacement for the londinium will be here tomorrow in one piece.
> 
> Ive ordered a lelit bianca from Bella barista


 Good choice! Hope she arrives safe and sound 👍


----------



## 4085

Hi Jake, can I also add my sentiments, of hoping that this machine arrives to you trouble free and also matches your expectations! I have never seen anyone suffer quite as much bad luck as you have recently, and it can be very frustrating!

I know that you and I have not seen eye to eye is the past matey, but let me explain. Back in the day, when I used the Hound avatar the forum was a different place. Yes, I was many things and quite happy to trade blows with anyone, and did. But, those days are long gone now, the forum has been thoroughly cleansed and I would invite you to think back to the last bit of nastiness that happened, here, other than very poor attempts at trolling.

I have been a member here since November 2012, and look forward to the future here. We are the UK's premier forum, we are a happy safe space where folks come to ask questions based ion the knowledge base of members, including yourself.

I look forward to reading your thoughts on your new machine matey!


----------



## cuprajake

Ah well the FedEx del by 6pm has gone and passed.

No machine meh


----------



## Stevebee

Cuprajake said:


> Ah well the FedEx del by 6pm has gone and passed.
> 
> No machine meh


 If it wasn't for bad luck you'd have no luck. My fingers and toes are crossed for you this time 🤞🙏


----------



## DavecUK




----------



## cuprajake

Its annoying because the mrs has to sit in all day!


----------



## DavecUK

Cuprajake said:


> Its annoying because the mrs has to sit in all day!


 Looking on the bright side, it would be more annoying if you had to wait in all day.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips

Tomorrow is another day @Cuprajake Good luck with your new coffee mistress (and sale of the old one!) Look forward to your first shots! (Ask BB for the tracking no so you don't have to guess?)


----------



## cuprajake

Thank you,

Ive got all the shipping. Just FedEx are useless 🤣


----------



## JahLaza

Will it ever be the case that the tracking info is useful? 😂 although when I bought my airscape from Amazon recently it was possible to track the delivery van as it went from stop to stop! The previous delivery was the Elizabeth however,and that delivery was cancelled after a 2 week hibernation somewhere in dhl Germany, and then just turned up anyway for the party randomly!! Yeah, enjoy it when it arrives☀☀


----------



## cuprajake

I love the royal mail version were you can only track once its delivered 🤣🤣🤣🤦

Speaking of deliveries, i ordered a motor cover for the mazzer, paid next day delivery again, this was the 29th.

After a few un answered emails i got a reply saying were waiting for stock... website said 2 in stock.

So thats a bit naughty also.


----------



## JahLaza

You may get the next day portion refunded yeah!!


----------



## Rob1

Cuprajake said:


> Yeah. I mean one that doesnt sit inside the basket leaving a ring in the grounds


 I have one of these: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07R8ZRTGS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

EDIT: Just seen it's already been linked and you want it magnetised...


----------



## cuprajake

Yeah i have one of those ones

Cheers


----------



## danielpugh

Cuprajake said:


> Thats one of the ones i have. There non magnatised


 Qualify is 3dprint, but the price is cheap...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/58mm-Portafilters-Espresso-Dosing-Funnel-Coffee-Dosing-Ring-Magnetic-/294141555078?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0


----------



## cuprajake

Ah, thats a good shout.

Ready and waiting


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@Cuprajake - did you manage to sell the L1 Jake? That was quick!

edit: just checked the classifieds. Looks like you are just making space for the new arrival. 👍🤞

Would defo love to hear your feedback on the Bianca and how it compares, to the Minima with flow control that you had and with your L1 too, in terms of taste.


----------



## cuprajake

haha not sold as yet, just making space, stupidly i turned it off yesterday morning thinking fedex would actually be good this time round,

Emailed bella barista last night, the lady i delt with regarding the crem replied first thing, as she did last time, she has refunded the shipping and is on hold to fedex, she stated they have had a few issues with them, the tracking just shows pending now??

this is propper customer service, and how it should be

i have a reglar bean that i use all the time and have just started a dog and hat bag, so i should be able to get it, i know the first go on this dog and hat tasted terrible lol


----------



## cuprajake

So its not coming today either.

FedEx are junk


----------



## 7493

I had some terrible experiences with Fed Ex a few years ago. One phone conversation with the local branch culminated in the guy saying he was going into the warehouse with a baseball bat to sort them out...


----------



## lake_m

Cuprajake said:


> So its not coming today either.
> 
> FedEx are junk


 It boils my blood when they do that!


----------



## DavecUK

Cuprajake said:


> So its not coming today either.
> 
> FedEx are junk


 You would think with Lockdown, all the courier companies would have really polished their act up!


----------



## GrahamSPhillips

Hi @Cuprajake Jake its obvious - every time you try to "leave" the L1 its a disaster.. the message is clear- a bit like Hotel California- you can't leave! Stick with L1 and be happy! LoL!!


----------



## cuprajake

I think the general level of service, has gone down and the just go covid🤷 brexit🤷

Not all places but a hell of alot, face it daily at work ordering parts


----------



## cuprajake

FedEx tracking has updated from pending to out for delivery, so should be here today.

Im fishing after work though, so wont be getting touched today if it comes sadly.


----------



## lake_m

NIce one! If it was me, it would be a midnight coffee!!


----------



## cuprajake

Well long day, caught plenty of fish 🤣 but my mind was elsewhere....

Got home to a well packed box,









Inside the box was another box









The machine comes with:

Plumbing kit

Group brush

Water filter

Coffee scoup

Single basket

Double basket

Triple basket

Twin portafilter

naked portafilter

2 and 4 hole steam tips

Metal tamper

Cup raiser

Lelit towel

to note the baskets are ims









So filled the res, it holds 2l not massive but ample, im an avid water level watcher anyway, it took about 15 mins to fill the boilers and get to boiler temp, i then flushed and drained the steam boiler as per manual, then refilled

Its currently sat warming the group just to test, too late for grinding now. I wasn't sure i was going to like the shell be told, but im happily surprised.

Final pic









Jake


----------



## lake_m

Looks great!

Glad it arrived without damage in the end. Looking forward to hearing how you get on with her. 👍


----------



## John Yossarian

Congrats Jake! The Lelit Bianca has finally landed.


----------



## cuprajake

So first go this morning,

Used the mrs usual bean, went a tad finer for grind, used a lever profile ???? results were good, steaming milk with the two hole tip takes a few seconds longer than the londinium 4 hole tip, gives lovely milk.

 https://www.****************/filedata/fetch?id=17104&d=1625813404&type=medium 

Onto mine, the dog and hat subscription i've just started this bean, tbf struggled a tad on the londinium with this as its quite light and was giving me very bright espresso, went a tiny bit finer.

Same profile ran quicker than it should 34g out in 29sec, as an amercano, it did however really knock the brightness back to leaving a sweet after taste.

So first impression are good.

I do however remember why i hate e61 ????


----------



## Doram

Cuprajake said:


> I do however remember why i hate e61 😅


 When is the Bianca going on sale? 😉


----------



## cuprajake

Haha,

Its just getting back into the habit of cleaning, kinda forgot how to do that bit 🤣


----------



## DavecUK

Cuprajake said:


> Haha,
> 
> Its just getting back into the habit of cleaning, kinda forgot how to do that bit 🤣


 Interestingly, you mentioned the smaller water tank...I prefer smaller tanks because you have to fill them more often, so the water remains fresher. For people who don't make coffee that often, I often advise they half fill the tank, just so the water doesn't sit there for a week or more.

It's also true that although the E61 has to be brushed whilst a little water runs out, overall, water use is lower than a Lever. I know this because I have a Bianca on the bench as well.


----------



## cuprajake

Yeah i dont have an issue with the tank, more than ample for me

Need to get a toothbrush 😂


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake said:


> Need to get a toothbrush


 You shouldn't brush your teeth with coffee Jake! I know it's tempting though! 😂🤣!👍


----------



## GrahamSPhillips

Congrats @Cuprajake But what are you gonna do for aggravation now? Seriously tho look forward to reports of your next steps coffee journey.. !


----------



## cuprajake

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You shouldn't brush your teeth with coffee Jake! I know it's tempting though! 😂🤣!👍


 I prefer to use them there softer than those group brushes you get.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake said:


> I prefer to use them there softer than those group brushes you get.


 I see what you mean now. On the Elizabeth - and when I had my E61 back then, I used a sponge cloth and wiped the screen and surrounding areas, include gasket. At the end of the day, I used to quickly pop the screen and gasket out and give it a rinse and clean. Works (and worked) well for me. So, no brushes for me on a daily basis.


----------



## Denis S

buy a Bplus/flair 58 it will help you a lot in obtaining a better shot (taste wise) and in keeping the shower screen super clean.

Before I would have to flush a lot, and clean screen weekly at 1-2 espresso per day (so after 10-15 espresso clean shower) Now I clean it once a month.


----------



## Roko

Cuprajake said:


> Well long day, caught plenty of fish 🤣 but my mind was elsewhere....
> 
> Got home to a well packed box,
> 
> View attachment 58639
> 
> 
> Inside the box was another box
> 
> View attachment 58640
> 
> 
> The machine comes with:
> 
> Plumbing kit
> 
> Group brush
> 
> Water filter
> 
> Coffee scoup
> 
> Single basket
> 
> Double basket
> 
> Triple basket
> 
> Twin portafilter
> 
> naked portafilter
> 
> 2 and 4 hole steam tips
> 
> Metal tamper
> 
> Cup raiser
> 
> Lelit towel
> 
> to note the baskets are ims
> 
> View attachment 58641
> 
> 
> So filled the res, it holds 2l not massive but ample, im an avid water level watcher anyway, it took about 15 mins to fill the boilers and get to boiler temp, i then flushed and drained the steam boiler as per manual, then refilled
> 
> Its currently sat warming the group just to test, too late for grinding now. I wasn't sure i was going to like the shell be told, but im happily surprised.
> 
> Final pic
> 
> View attachment 58642
> 
> 
> Jake


 Nice! What vials are those Jake? They look neat.


----------



## DavecUK

Cuprajake said:


> Yeah i dont have an issue with the tank, more than ample for me
> 
> Need to get a toothbrush 😂


 I hope you mean a pallo coffee tool or similar...although I suppose a toothbrush would work for the shower screen and gasket 😉


----------



## cuprajake

i also have an espazola too lol

@Denis S ill have a look, i have way too many baskets

vst 15g

ims 18g comp

ims 20g londinium

3 stock ims/lelit

ims eb super fine


----------



## lake_m

Denis S said:


> buy a Bplus/flair 58 it will help you a lot in obtaining a better shot (taste wise) and in keeping the shower screen super clean.
> 
> Before I would have to flush a lot, and clean screen weekly at 1-2 espresso per day (so after 10-15 espresso clean shower) Now I clean it once a month.


 Where in the UK can you get these? - looks to be US only.


----------



## cuprajake

Roko said:


> Nice! What vials are those Jake? They look neat.


 https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07FJPS1CJ?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

lake_m said:


> Where in the UK can you get these? - looks to be US only.


 I've atted you at the thread, so we don't de-rail this one.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/60969-puck-screen-bplus-flair-mesh-screen/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=850635&embedComment=850635&embedDo=findComment#comment-850635


----------



## cuprajake

So getting to grips with the bianca,

Its a cracking machine it really is

















I also like the little details









The steam with the two hole tip is very manageable, gives a lovely foam. Ive changed a llc setting to show the true temp, thanks @MediumRoastSteam for that tip.

As bang for buck goes its a cracking package


----------



## cuprajake

Quick vid


----------



## Denis S

@Cuprajake nice pour. The shot looks good, so the coffee (a medium espresso roast) with plenty of body.

Can I ask what is your set temperature?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

I think I need a Bianca&#8230;. (Rickaaaaeeyyy!!!) 😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

looks great @Cuprajake! And very quiet too!


----------



## cuprajake

Hi,

This was set to 93, these beans are med/dark, this is the mrs regular. Very good through milk, a bit much on its own, does make quite a nice amercano though.

Ive really struggled with the dog and hat this month.

Ive ordered some more from north star as ive really like there stuff.


----------



## Denis S

I do know the Bianca and my friends use it with lower temp for some light roasts.

For example, a 90C on Bianca is equivalent to ~86C on Decent (sure the machine has an off-set).

For med to dark I would try in the 88-90C range, I see you have some sparkly bubbles a bit, so really fresh coffee or a bit too high temp for it. Nobody will get hurt if you dont like it but maybe try it.

At 93C set on pid you have ~ 94C on a scace. I find 93-94C ideal for light stuff, and sometimes a bit too hot even.

For medium 88-90 and for some darker stuff depending on your water even 88 and lower.

Another thing to consider that I forgot to mention:

The temp on Bianca normally goes up 0.5-1C during the 25-30 sec shot.

The temp on L1 goes down 5-10+C during a shot. This is why I strongly suggest you try some lower temps.


----------



## cuprajake

Problem i have is u usually brew a light roast after the mrs so have it set for mine 🤣

I will have a play though once i get a bit more used to the machine. Cheers for the tips 👍👍👍👍


----------



## cuprajake

@Denis S ive been trying these last few time just to see if they did anything for clean up


























pucks are quite sloppy atm, but i could be grinding to fine.


----------



## Denis S

it's not the same thing as mesh, because the paper doesnt hold the puck together.

The bplus is a 1.8mm thick mesh that:

a. takes away headspace (dry pucks)

b. solves water uniformity in the puck both at preinfusion and while pressing at high pressure

c. keeps the puck steady and doesn't let it inflate that much as w/o it or with paper, meaning a more compact puck

You could join a group buy and order either from Flair website (cheaper shipping and ships in 7-10 days not 6 weeks as stated on the website) or you can order it from Bplus.

It really makes a difference, specially with lighter coffee as you presented in the puck above. There are tests made by Stephane Ribes on diaspora forum were he uses a bianca and the bplus on light coffee.

His extractions go up from 21 % w/o a bplus to 23-24% only by adding the bplus mesh screen. The paper filters wont do the same.

The only downside of the bplus mesh that some people do not like is that you have to clean it after each use, wash it under the water tap for a few seconds and it's ready to go. Or if you pull many shots you could buy 2-3 of them.

If you do not like it, you can always sell it at the b/o price because it has great value cause of shipping time. Best luck.


----------



## Denis S

In 2020 I came up with an idea of using steel mesh screens instead of paper just because I hate paper, it filters some stuff too from the coffee, and you use it once or a few times. Back then there was no bplus or not for 58mm, it was only for Pavoni.

Then we moved to 58mm bplus and it's great.

I am not really allowed to share everything just because this is not my work, and I did not ask for permission directly:


----------



## cuprajake

Yeah there's deffo scope for it, i was only using the paper for cleanliness. More to mess

Ive seen these mesh a few time.

I may have a look. Any links to the gb? Per haps pm if its not on this forum


----------



## cuprajake

Turned the pressure down a tad from 10 bar to 9, but which is best to go off the group gauge or the pump gauge. Using a blind basket


----------



## DavecUK

@Cuprajake You have to be mindful of water expansion. Do both gauges max out at the same value or is one higher?


----------



## cuprajake

Thats a point. It was done warm.

The group was just over while the machine said bang on.


----------



## Stevebee

Denis S said:


> .The temp on L1 goes down 5-10+C during a shot. This is why I strongly suggest you try some lower temps.


 This is not what I found.When I first got my L1 I put a fast reacting thermocouple inside a naked portafilter through a small hole drilled on the bottom. The tip was in the middle of the coffee. I pulled a series of 5 shots to see the temp drop during the shots. These were recorded in Artisan. The temp went from 93 to 91 during the shot and was very consistent on all 5. So I would say a 2-3c drop is more realistic. The graph was posted on a thread here a few years ago I think.


----------



## 4085

@Stevebee Would a naked always pull a cooler shot as there is far less thermal mass?


----------



## DavecUK

Cuprajake said:


> Thats a point. It was done warm.
> 
> The group was just over while the machine said bang on.


 It's going to depend on where the gauge take off for the pump is. If it's before the 1 way valve to the sealed brew circuit....then use the gauge on the machines panel. If it's the group gauge, it will rise higher than the pump setting against a blind filter, due to water expansion (heating of cold water entering the brew boiler).

If it's a very small difference, then you might just be seeing gauge variance, if it's 1 or 1.5 bar, then you're probably seeing the effect of water expansion.


----------



## DavecUK

Stevebee said:


> This is not what I found.When I first got my L1 I put a fast reacting thermocouple inside a naked portafilter through a small hole drilled on the bottom. The tip was in the middle of the coffee. I pulled a series of 5 shots to see the temp drop during the shots. These were recorded in Artisan. The temp went from 93 to 91 during the shot and was very consistent on all 5. So I would say a 2-3c drop is more realistic. The graph was posted on a thread here a few years ago I think.


 I think people are referring to this video. I would add that technically I would expect a larger delta than the 2-3C you saw. Especially as the Londinium group is significantly cooler than the Evo group.


----------



## Denis S

Was just about going to post exactly that video. Thanks. I could not care less about temp stability, I was just pointing out differences in the old machine he had L1 to Bianca.

You can also find videos of temp on Bianca and the temp goes up not down (by 0.5-1C). There is also an off-set set from the factory for the Bianca, and that off-set works only in some temp ranges (ambient) You cannot have the same off-set at 3000m altitude or 200m altitude, or in Russia versus Italy.

In the end I am not the guy to ask what temp you have set on your LR24 so I can set it on my Bianca so we can pull the same shots. Temp is adjusted base on taste, of each of it's own.


----------



## Stevebee

Hadn't seen that video. I was referring to the graph below









This was done with a thermocouple taped to the group head (Red) and one actually in the coffee whilst brewing, approx 5 mm below the puck surface.


----------



## Stevebee

dfk41 said:


> @Stevebee Would a naked always pull a cooler shot as there is far less thermal mass?


 I think temp in the cup, probably yes. These temps were taken in the actual coffee bed so not sure is naked or spouted would affect these.


----------



## DavecUK

Stevebee said:


> Hadn't seen that video. I was referring to the graph below
> 
> 
> View attachment 58710
> 
> 
> This was done with a thermocouple taped to the group head (Red) and one actually in the coffee whilst brewing, approx 5 mm below the puck surface.


 The results are surprising and not what I would expect based on the technology and some of the other comments/videos online...


----------



## Stevebee

TBH I only set it up as I'd only just got the L1 and was more interested in the temp stability of the group over a number of shots as I had seen some posts on HB saying it wasn't stable. I think in that cast he had an issue which was resolve and was stable afterwards. I did varying the preinfusion length but it didnt have a significant effect on temp which surprised me.


----------



## DavecUK

@Stevebee Even the group temperature surprised me?


----------



## Stevebee

The group thermocouple was attached at the spot Reis and Frans recommended/used. I the cut a cork coaster to size and wrapped it around / over the tip as I wanted it in permanent contact with the group. This was cable tied in place and ended up a permanent fixture as I used in in fluctuating ambient (outside) and needed to know when to use the insulated cover I had. These were done indoors with no cover. Over time, if the ambient was he same the group showed the same


----------



## cuprajake




----------



## GrahamSPhillips

Was just chatting to Mr Shades- really helpful and knowledgable. Thanks to everyone for flagging up their puck screens. It bought a 2-pack for £14 so a fraction of the cost of the Flair or the b-plus! Will let you know how I get on!


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## cuprajake

Yeah I've ordered some too


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## lake_m

Thanks for flagging that up. Not impressed with the cost the BPLus or Flair ones. I'll give these a try.


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## newdent

GrahamSPhillips said:


> Was just chatting to Mr Shades- really helpful and knowledgable. Thanks to everyone for flagging up their puck screens. It bought a 2-pack for £14 so a fraction of the cost of the Flair or the b-plus! Will let you know how I get on!


 Didn't realise these existed, here's a link if I'm allowed to post? https://www.shadesofcoffee.co.uk/mod-products-for-e61-based-espresso-machines/stainless-steel-puck-screen-or-contact-screen-585mm

Cheap enough to give them a try, I am wondering if the outer edges not having holes will effect extraction? I'm guessing probably not.

I'm going to contact to see if he'll offer different sizes.


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## newdent

> On 11/07/2021 at 11:06, Cuprajake said:
> 
> Quick vid


 A slight 'donut extraction' there, what causes this? I know it happens a lot on the manual brewers like the flair and robots because they have a mesh screen on top of the puck but don't understand why this would happen on an E61 group. Do you have a screen on top?


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## cuprajake

very slight, put this down to the funnel i use, i need a magnetic one that goes ontop, not in the basket

no screen

crap puck prep, as like any bad pour.

tbh i usually just use the twin spout, so i dont obsess over stuff, what i will say is the god shot is not the be all end all, ive seen alot of data showing how visual gives no ref to extraction


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## newdent

Cuprajake said:


> very slight, put this down to the funnel i use, i need a magnetic one that goes ontop, not in the basket
> 
> no screen
> 
> crap puck prep, as like any bad pour.
> 
> tbh i usually just use the twin spout, so i dont obsess over stuff, what i will say is the god shot is not the be all end all, ive seen alot of data showing how visual gives no ref to extraction


 Thanks, I guess it's the funnel then. I only asked as I've only ever seen the donut extractions on videos from robots and flairs. I saw some chat regarding paper and bplus filters at some point and wondered if those were causing it.

Agree that good looking shots aren't the be all, I only still pay attention because I'm still learning when to stop the shot, etc. I care much less if I'm adding milk to the espresso as minor taste issues get hidden anyway. Very impressed with the bianca, it's made it only my shortlist for my next machine when I was initially dead set on a lever machine.


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## cuprajake

ive seen it across the board, e61, londinium, decent etc

theres something to be said for levers


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## Denis S

Shot on naked means almost nothing now as it has been proven.

There are in details experiments with proper extraction measurements, showing that in a puck, you get a uneven less extraction on the outside parte of the puck. So let's say you have a 58mm diameter puck, and the last 8mm on the outside get's under extracted because there are normally less holes or no holes there.

There are radial extraction experiments, where after an extraction, you cut the puck into little parts, weight them, dry them and then place them into liquid and extract what is left by immersion. Then by comparing you can see where you did extract more or less comparing the middle with the edge.

Forcing water to start from the edge is a improvement of extraction cause you extract the entire puck more efficient. Or if you want, forcing water where it extracts less is increasing the total TDS/EY of a shot. Now some lights might turn on, cause nutation did something like that in 2013. But now there are other methods to control and achieve a higher extractions.

Even if a bplus is favoring a donut extraction start, it's still increasing your average extraction on all shots by min 1-2%. So a donut start cannot be considered bad anymore.

At the same time blonding means absolutely nothing. Blonding was something that was used when the coffee was not so great, you would stop the shot faster based on that. The worst the coffee, the shorter the ratio (to extract less) the better.


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## newdent

Denis S said:


> Shot on naked means almost nothing now as it has been proven.
> 
> There are in details experiments with proper extraction measurements, showing that in a puck, you get a uneven less extraction on the outside parte of the puck. So let's say you have a 58mm diameter puck, and the last 8mm on the outside get's under extracted because there are normally less holes or no holes there.
> 
> There are radial extraction experiments, where after an extraction, you cut the puck into little parts, weight them, dry them and then place them into liquid and extract what is left by immersion. Then by comparing you can see where you did extract more or less comparing the middle with the edge.
> 
> Forcing water to start from the edge is a improvement of extraction cause you extract the entire puck more efficient. Or if you want, forcing water where it extracts less is increasing the total TDS/EY of a shot. Now some lights might turn on, cause nutation did something like that in 2013. But now there are other methods to control and achieve a higher extractions.
> 
> Even if a bplus is favoring a donut extraction start, it's still increasing your average extraction on all shots by min 1-2%. So a donut start cannot be considered bad anymore.
> 
> At the same time blonding means absolutely nothing. Blonding was something that was used when the coffee was not so great, you would stop the shot faster based on that. The worst the coffee, the shorter the ratio (to extract less) the better.


 From a scientific perspective, very interesting. If this knowledge is widely known, it makes you wonder why the holes don't go all the way to edge now. Presumably the previous design was an engineering constraint but technology must have moved on enough to make it a non-issue now.

I still think there's information to be had from a naked shot. Obviously, I can't look at the shot and guess the extraction yield but if the shot is running faster than I want for my target ratio, I can pull the shot a bit longer and vice versa. Taste is the ultimate guide but some visual cues help.

A paper was shared on Facebook where visual analysis of lots of shots took place and as you'd expect, shots with obvious channels or specific dark regions (as opposed to an even tiger stripe) had lower extraction yields.

Ultimately, if you're getting an extraction that looks the same on every shot and you adjust it to your taste and stop at the same weight, you're going to get a tasty shot every time and that's all I worry about at my level of interest.

Saying that, if a little tweak in basket design means I can use a few grams less coffee per shot then why not, no point in wasting expensive coffee!


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## cuprajake

i dose 14/15g usually - not in the above baskets, i have a 15g vst too


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## GrahamSPhillips

Interesting! What matters is how the coffee tastes, obvs. Since I invested in a naked portafilter and really focused on puck prep that's made by far the greatest difference (improvement) to taste. Surely what we are aiming for is two fold: maximum extraction AND and even extraction?


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## newdent

GrahamSPhillips said:


> Interesting! What matters is how the coffee tastes, obvs. Since I invested in a naked portafilter and really focused on puck prep that's made by far the greatest difference (improvement) to taste. Surely what we are aiming for is two fold: maximum extraction AND and even extraction?


 If what Denis said is true then it will be much easier to achieve both things if the puck extracts more evenly, otherwise you're having to overextract to balance out the parts that are underextracted. Will be interesting to see what coffee manufacturers come up with, tweaking a basket design and adding a puck screen seems like an easy thing to experiment with anyway.

I'm not sure I'm sold on encouraging flow to the outside of the basket. Seems like it would be hard to do so in a controllable way but interested to read up on it if it's straight forward enough to do.


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## GrahamSPhillips

So @Cuprajake early thoughts on the L1 vs the Bianca??


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## cuprajake

So its kinda hard to tell

Both machines are capable of making amazing coffee. The bianca more capable with lighter stuff because of the paddle.

That said i have no real light stuff till my dog and hat comes.

As petty as it sounds i just wanted away from reiss/londinium and all the bs that was entangled with it, and you know what, mentally i feel so much better for it.

And as a glutton for punishment, i dug the vst basket out, the 15g vst

Still get my doughnut @newdent 🤣 the basket seemed to bring a sweeter note with it for sure

But this is only the second time ive used it. First time with the londinium she was a squirter 🤣


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## steveholt

Thanks for the open and honest updates.

Because of this thread I have some mr shades screens in the post too.


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## cuprajake

The londinium is say is better for steam but thats due to the boiler being double of the bianca. I may change the 2 hole to a 4 hole and have a see


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## cuprajake

Had a nice little delivery from north star


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## cuprajake

Another delivery.









There not flat, all are warped, so not sure how they will perform 🤦


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## cuprajake

fwiw i really dont see the point in them after using them. just more faff that i fell into because of forum whispers......


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## DavecUK

I've never found a need to use such devices.... would be a major hassle.


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## cuprajake

i fell into the trap. ive just turned most my social media off. deleted all my followed/followers.

its just a place to sell now, if i need to slow a shot i can grind finer or turn the paddle down


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## MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake said:


> ive just turned most my social media off. deleted all my followed/followers.


 I have done that 4 years ago. Best thing I ever did. 🙂 - The only places I frequent are coffee forums - But I only post and participate actively here.

Facebook serves the purpose for Groups (Niche Zero, La Pavoni, Beans Not Machines, Lelit Lovers) and Single Sign On. I have no "friends" or "followers".

LinkedIn for jobs...

And that's it. 🙂


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## JahLaza

Ha! Is this the topic of the day? I see another one today on the forum about how life has changed and I too find it interesting but have to move on with it😌 I've never had a social media account, this is the only forum I'm a member of because it educates and entertains me without invading my privacy and building a profile of me... or does it??!! Only exception is LinkedIn as that could prove useful too! But anyway thanks to you guys here I'm drinking great coffee at home 😎


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## cuprajake

The londinium went to its new owner today, fabulous machine for a great guy,

Even came bearing gifts,


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## JahLaza

Great stuff, are you loving the bianca?


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## cuprajake

Yeah, there a cracking machine

Regardless of the flow control you cant mimic a lever shot,


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## 4085

@Cuprajake If you were going to mimic a lever shot Jake, would it be a single spring or a double spring, as I believe they are very different


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## Denis S

You can't mimic a spring lever with a pump machine, period. It can be any pump you want, controlled by flow/pressure manual or programmable, it can't.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Denis S said:


> You can't mimic a spring lever with a pump machine, period. It can be any pump you want, controlled by flow/pressure manual or programmable, it can't.


 That's not what Decent Espresso says. 😉


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## cuprajake

They can copy the profile of a lever. They just cant inject that initially flow when you pull the lever kts like 60mls a second


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## Denis S

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That's not what Decent Espresso says. 😉


 Decent is delusional. I had mine for 12 months now, after receiving the Leva, i'm selling the Decent and already have prepared a nice 25 page (small) decent espresso review. Bad and good stuff, strong and good points.

I will never buy a vibratory pump machine ever again. Bianca has a rotary pump, and can make better shots than Decent overall and much faster.

There are minimum 3 experienced old Decent users (who owned one for more than 2 years) who moved from Decent to Bianca, and they indeed do better coffee, easier. But there are better machines than Bianca, just not at that price point.


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## cuprajake

I think theres always a better machine, 🤣 just depends how deep your pockets are.....


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## profesor_historia

Cuprajake said:


> I think theres always a better machine, 🤣 just depends how deep your pockets are.....


 Not necessarily. Have you heard about the diminished returns law? Changing the machines and the grinders to more and more expensive ones won't get you a better cup of coffee I am afraid 😅.


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## cuprajake

No really, ive read it on the internet..


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## profesor_historia

Cuprajake said:


> No really, ive read it on the internet..


 I am talking in general, of course, not referring to anyone in particular .


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## MediumRoastSteam

Denis S said:


> Decent and already have prepared a nice 25 page (small) decent espresso review. Bad and good stuff, strong and good points


 Very interesting this Denis S, I'd love to hear your feedback and the comparison you have. There is a lot of stuff out there, but it's generally good points about the Decent. It's not very often we have constructive feedback from a coffee machine compared to others, specially at this level. 👍 - I have no intention in buying a Decent, but I do hope one day I'd upgrade to the V Evo or a Bianca.


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## Denis S

You dont have negative feedback or reports on Decent because it's all kept under control on the private forum, where possible customers can't see the many problems there are. These problems are known, and fixed by the stuff, so it's not like they are not helpful, it's just a complicated machine with many things to fail, both software and hardware and a new thing going on now, a lot of failing from the idiot in front of the machine.

Can we speak of diminished returns in a hobby? I don't think so.

You need a car, and you want to buy the cheapest you can get new, to save on fuel and price payed. You buy a Dacia. It goes from A to B, it's good. Now your hobbys are cars more or less, you buy a bmw. It goes from A to B for some people, for others it does more.

I can make good espresso with a 50Euro Gaggia classic I repaired and a 10euro grinder I had to repair (conical electrical). If I pay 300 times more, will this make me x300 times better coffee? of course not. Will it make me better coffee? yes it will. Will it make my work easier and more enjoyable while making espresso? of course it will.

Will I have access to certain people when talking about more expensive items? of course it will. So you see? it's not all about putting your money on a scale and drawing conclusions if your espresso is directly proportional better with what you payed. A hobby doesn't' need arguments of spend money, or if you want, financial education has no place into a hobby purchase.


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## The Systemic Kid

Beyond the basics, relationship between incremental gains vs what you pay for them gets exponential very quickly.


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## 4085

I have been thinking a bit about the topic of closed forums this afternoon, and came to the conclusion that as a customer, I can see absolutely no point whatsoever in benefitting myself, from stifling free talk. That is impossible as there are many many forums across the world. I used to be a member of the Londinium forum when it first established. Even though I have owned an L1 (and still do) for far more months than I have not owned one, I was denied access to the new Londinium forum when that established. Strange old world is it not?

For me, the choice would be, why would I buy the product to be not able to discuss it freely......good points and bad points.........so in summary, I cannot ever imagine me buying a product no matter how well perceived, if it is attached to a closed forum


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## 4085

I was just thinking, am I being unfair to the 'closed forum' brigade? Would anyone like to speak up and explain what they offer the customer. The advantages they offer the business owner are obvious. As a last pointer from me, I find it extremely interesting that the CF brigade (Londinium, Kaffatek, Decent) are all effectively small businesses.


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## Denis S

Decent small at 200-300 units a month?

At 250 units sold a month (they sell more to commercial now XL or XXL units that are more expensive) *5000$ per unit that ~1.250.000$ per month

I dont think that is a small business. Maybe you are not up to date. They offer information, and experiments, and improvements in doing espresso that must remain private so the competition doesn't catch up.

There are many experiments with all sort of different things, with clear data and plenty of shots.


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## 4085

@Denis S Small business might not be the best description, I grant you that. Perhaps I ought to have said, business that seems to be driven by a single person at the helm. I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong as I do not follow Decent, but all the posts, on here anyway, seem to come from a single person


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## DavecUK

I think we're veering well off topic here...the post was about "My new Londinium L1 replaced with a Lelit Bianca". Somehow we have moved to closed forums and other companies?* Please keep on topic guys.*


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## cuprajake

In other words talk about me and my machine


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## DavecUK

Cuprajake said:


> In other words talk about me and my machine


 I believe that was the point of the thread? The other discussion should really be on its own thread.


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## 4085

@DavecUK Would you care to split it Dave?


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## DavecUK

I'm all relaxed for the night now. If you guys really want to start another thread that bad, I'll move the relevant posts to it when I'm back on the PC.


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## 4085

@DavecUK Well, I feel there is some mileage in this as a discussion thread. Of course, others my not but if it is given its own thread others can decide if they want to join in or not


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## John Yossarian

Cuprajake said:


> They can copy the profile of a lever. They just cant inject that initially flow when you pull the lever kts like 60mls a second


 In the end it should depend on how quickly the water (60 mls or less) penetrates the coffee ground. It might turn out that even at 10 mls per second there is plenty of water to satisfy fast water penetration. After all this is the limiting process during the PI. And this need to be coupled with the PI pressure to get the full picture, i.e. at 4 bars PI then the 60 mls could be significantly different, but at 2 bars this might not be the case.


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## steveholt

I'd be interested in the side thread and the decent review from @Denis S

I appreciate your writing on the forums.

The decent has been increasingly alluring as its benefits have been teased out over the years by the user community.

Hearing real life limitations can only help make better decisions possible too.


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## TomR

steveholt said:


> I'd be interested in the side thread and the decent review from @Denis S
> 
> I appreciate your writing on the forums.
> 
> The decent has been increasingly alluring as its benefits have been teased out over the years by the user community.
> 
> Hearing real life limitations can only help make better decisions possible too.


 Happy to let you know my brief thoughts although clearly off topic.

I had a decent and sold it after year. Denis S has a decent and has decided to buy a large spring lever in addition. I drink darker roasts, I understand Dennis prefers lighter roasts (not my place of course to speak on behalf of someone of his expertise) It seems like, from our very different perspectives, neither of us found the decent to be espresso endgame, whatever that might be

The decent was very good. However I and many others found it difficult to get really thick syrupy shots with dark roast beans, even using the lever profile

this is quite widely commented on amongst decent owners with much speculation as to why this might be (water debit? Headspace??)

when I did use it for light roasts I found it much better than anything else I've had for extracting fruity and floral flavours

ultimately I think the people who enjoy the decent most of all, at least from my average reading of their online forum, are people who you really enjoy the coding/software aspect of it all, as well as the very detailed analysis

I decided I preferred a much more analogue approach to making espresso, excepting that this may be giving up on the last 5% of flavour chasing

I also got exhausted after a bit by the constant experimentation that is encouraged by owning the decent.

I really miss the very rapid warmup time as well as the community of owners who are largely very honest and reflective and not the fanboys you would maybe expect

I now have a large spring lever, very low tech, and I'm loving it but who knows what the future will hold?


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## cuprajake

New pic, new bean cellar made by nick


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## 4085

@Cuprajake Do you have to use any sort of puffer with the grinder. For those of us not familiar with the DW mods, can you explain them>


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## cuprajake

Im back to stock bud,

The wong stuff dose come with a blower,

Me now i have the funnel and just use a brush.


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## Jony

Might have to swing by for a flat white 😂 or when you come my way😁


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## cuprajake

Had a little delivery from bella barista.

New tamper base for my force tamper and a pair of silicone seals














sadly they sent the wrong base but were rapid to sort it out, new one coming monday.

Bianca has performed flawlessly so far, with nothing to report. Just does her job.


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## cuprajake

And a quick work flow vid


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## DavecUK

@Cuprajake Bianca is a nice machine at an excellent price.


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## Waitforme

@Cuprajake, Very light tamp, what is the spring load ?

I appear to tamp way heavier than that.


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## Denis S

It's not a light tamp at all, it's like 30lbs.

BTW, two simple observations that are just speculations:

when you take out the pf from the group, I see you do not wipe it but put the coffee into it. Arent you concerned about the condensation in the basket starting to preinfuse the coffee at the walls? so to speak.

When you use the second portafilter, it is at room temp, and that will change how the shot will flow, so you would need to dial in the grinder a bit again, because of the change in temp.


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## cuprajake

The tamper is adjustable, from stock they arrive set to about 15lbs but i turned mine down to around 12 for use with my londinium.

Pf wise - i dont store the pf in the group. It pokes out to far so i have a pf holder on the wall, this pf was in for about 3mins before the shot so wasnt wet.

Second pf is for the mrs who has a sweetner in hers so the shot imo doesn't have to be bang on 🤣😁


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## Waitforme

Hmm, I have recently started tamping heavier as I read recently that it should be about 30lbs.

I suppose it is a balance between grind coarseness and tamp pressure.

What make is your adjustable tamper, and is it 58.55mm same as Lelit tampers?

Thanks @Cuprajake


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## cuprajake

Its a force tsmper 58.5mm. got it from hit coffee in france but bella barista have just started to stock them

Tsmp pressure john at decent said anything over 15lbs didnt really make a difference 🤷


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## Denis S

The force tamper comes at 22lbs set, that is 10kg. There are studies done that show tamping at 10-15-20kg does nothing to the EY or taste.

You can set the force tamper up to 40 lbs =18kg.

The Bravo tamper comes at 26 lbs= 13kg set but you get another spring that allows you for a different tamping pressure, and you have a thread inside it that will allow you to compress the spring more or less (it's all in the manual).

One thing about the force tamper is that the puck will behave totally different if you tamp once or twice. Comparing bravo to force, the force tamper is much easier to use.

Use a translator for this article:

https://kaffeemacher.ch/anpressdruck-tampen/


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## cuprajake

Im only going off the force tamper vids about pressure.

I find its a good consistent way to tamp. The decent tamper i had first wasnt as good as you would get grinds left loose in the basket


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## cuprajake

Got this last week









The wavey tamper base for the force tamper, imo total gimmick.

All it does is make the shower screen a hell of alot more messy, needlessly to say i went back to flat


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee

@Cuprajake How did the shot taste? Did it make any difference to the shot time, if you still time them? Thx


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## cuprajake

dont really think it did much tbh,


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## The Systemic Kid

Cuprajake said:


> Got this last week
> 
> View attachment 60315
> 
> 
> The wavey tamper base for the force tamper, imo total gimmick.
> 
> All it does is make the shower screen a hell of alot more messy, needlessly to say i went back to flat


 Looks very Zen though🤣


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## DavecUK

The Systemic Kid said:


> Looks very Zen though🤣


 Blast from the past, I remember those from 16 years ago.... presumably made by same people.


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## cuprajake

yeah they do a waffle too, but it must wash the peaks away first and it just makes such a mess of the screen, it cant be good for the bianca


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## DavecUK

@Cuprajake I got one with the Lelit Logo and my name...gives me something to stare at just before I do my shot 🤣


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## cuprajake

latest coffee casulas kenyan - very nice


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## DavecUK

@Cuprajake Shot looked good and I assume it was quite light roasted


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## cuprajake

yeah fairly light, quite fine on the old mazzer


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## cuprajake

Heres a quick extraction video


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## John Yossarian

@Cuprajake This was quite a Shot!


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