# Grinder upgrade benefit question



## rendez2k (Nov 4, 2012)

Hi all, sorry for the question (I'm sure these kind of things get asked a million times on here!) but I have a Sage Smart Grinder Pro and I use it for pour-over and chemex. Would something like a Baratza Forte give a home user any real benefit? In other words would the upgrade cost be worth it for me?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

rendez2k said:


> Hi all, sorry for the question (I'm sure these kind of things get asked a million times on here!) but I have a Sage Smart Grinder Pro and I use it for pour-over and chemex. Would something like a Baratza Forte give a home user any real benefit? In other words would the upgrade cost be worth it for me?


Upgrading will always benefit you...but not to a Baratza...better to choose a different make.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I presume the grinder is for filter only ?

The Vario with appropriate fitted burrs produces good filter results.

A forte has alot of features that I dont think you are going to need for filter only

To go beyond that for filter you are looking at bigger spend and marginal gains of the bulk filter brew grinders.


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## rendez2k (Nov 4, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Upgrading will always benefit you...but not to a Baratza...better to choose a different make.


How come? Poor quality?


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## rendez2k (Nov 4, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> I presume the grinder is for filter only ?
> 
> The Vario with appropriate fitted burrs produces good filter results.
> 
> ...


Thanks - I was looking for the Vario in the UK but not found anyone stocking it yet :-(


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## tobyjrn6 (Dec 22, 2016)

I may be a bit naive in my thinking here but i think in general youre going to be paying for serious diminishing returns for a filter grinder unless you plan on shelling out a LOT. Grind is less important of a factor for less intense brew methods from what i gather


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## mikas (Dec 19, 2017)

What about not changing the grinder and instead get a Kruve?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

mikas said:


> What about not changing the grinder and instead get a Kruve?


Kruve is great for calibrating & having the possibility of excluding certain parts of the distribution, when you have time, but to sift every time you brew (if multiple times a day) is a faff & unnecessary.

I do it every now & then, but mostly for immersion, not drip.


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## Amvantage (Jun 20, 2018)

I think the vario was made by mahlkonig in the UK.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

The Smart Grinder Pro is perfectly adequate for filter brews. To see a noticeable improvement, you'll need to spend quite a bit more.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The Forte looks to be a £1000+ grinder with either ceramic or steel flat burrs. It looks like a variation on the Vario and said by them to be suitable for commercial use with a 130w motor, near 2000rpm 54mm burrs.

I only produce espresso but doubt if I would spend my £1000 with them due to reported problems on one of their other grinders. Odd warrantee as well



> Limited Warranty for Forté Grinders is 1 year or 50 hours of cumulative motor run time, whichever comes first.


Before looking at the model I was just going to say that upgrading from an SGP may not be a simple price wise as some seem to think it is. Sometimes people just say that decent coffee can't be made with a grinder at SGP's price and people must spend more or buy used. I have used an SGP and the grinder in the BE.

I don't know of any higher end grinders that come set up for grinding into a container which I assume is what you do.







I don't know anything at all about your methods. There are other people about who use different methods so maybe they can suggest solutions - would it be worth while - pass.

John

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> I don't know of any higher end grinders that come set up for grinding into a container which I assume is what you do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


EK43 springs to mind.


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## PeterF (Aug 25, 2014)

no its just not that good, mediocre. Go for something like a Eureka Mignon and it will provide a significant long term upgrade

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/brands/eureka-mignon-silenzia-15bl-coffee-grinder-50mm-burrs-orange.html


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PeterF said:


> no its just not that good, mediocre. Go for something like a Eureka Mignon and it will provide a significant long term upgrade
> 
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/brands/eureka-mignon-silenzia-15bl-coffee-grinder-50mm-burrs-orange.html


Not for pourover/Chemex.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

PeterF said:


> no its just not that good, mediocre. Go for something like a Eureka Mignon and it will provide a significant long term upgrade
> 
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/brands/eureka-mignon-silenzia-15bl-coffee-grinder-50mm-burrs-orange.html


They do a coffee container for the atom

https://www.eureka.co.it/en/catalogo/prodotti/macinacaff%c3%a8+istantaneo/1/8.aspx

and the Mignon but it may not be mentioned on all versions of this one.

https://www.eureka.co.it/en/catalogo/prodotti/macinacaff%c3%a8+istantaneo/1/19.aspx

The Mazzer ZM comes with a grinds canister. Price probably very similar to the EK43.

John

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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

One option would be a Baratza Sette with dedicated brew burrs. It seems like the early batch issues are fixed now and you can always swap the burrs if you want to go for espresso or turkish.

There's always going to be a big difference between home and commercial grinders but how many of us really need the robustness and precision of a commercial grinder for home use?


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

dev said:


> There's always going to be a big difference between home and commercial grinders but how many of us really need the robustness and precision of a commercial grinder for home use?


I do. I only make single dose espresso decaf and since it's decaf it needs to be of the highest quality. I've had and compared the Mazzer Mini, Super Jolly and Major. The Major is clearly better for taste in the cup, just as the SJ was better than the Mini. The jump from 64mm to 83mm burrs is a big one. I'm not going back ever. The quick grind time is great - couple of seconds - but I wouldn't even think of worse tasting coffee. Unacceptable. Retention is zero with a modded funnel, there is no clumping and yes - I grind into a container.

I used to spend hours on grinder forums evaluating models and I spent months monitoring eBay items. I bought 2 Majors and neither were over £200, and both in good condition with titanium burrs. The bargains are out there if you know how to take the dosers off and make a new DIY funnel - not difficult and there's plenty of info on this. I laugh at other grinders, with the exception of the Titans like the Robur, Royal, EK43 and ZM, and the 83mm burr models from Fiorenzato, Ceado and Compak (you occasionally see those on eBay at good prices). Titans rule!


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

Used commercial grinders have guaranteed alignment issues since most of the new ones are not that great to begin with. And the "clearly better" result is clearly a lot of placebo. There are things like controllable pre-infusion and a descending pressure ramp that influence the result in the cup much more than going from 64mm to 83mm. Also the coffee quality and roast level plays a greater role in the cup.

I'm not sure you know what zero retention means if you claim a Major has it.


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

dev said:


> Used commercial grinders have guaranteed alignment issues since most of the new ones are not that great to begin with. And the "clearly better" result is clearly a lot of placebo. There are things like controllable pre-infusion and a descending pressure ramp that influence the result in the cup much more than going from 64mm to 83mm. Also the coffee quality and roast level plays a greater role in the cup. I'm not sure you know what zero retention means if you claim a Major has it.


I disagree completely. It isn't placebo - I compared a large number of cups from the Mini and SJ to the Major before I sold them off. Like for like A-B comparisons with the same coffee. I wanted a reliable comparison, as much as I could achieve this outside lab conditions and blind testing. I weighed contents every time, measured brew time and ratio and used the Classic in the same way. I was satisfied.

Zero retention is measured quantities of coffee in and out after brushing out all the grinds in the burr chamber and funnel from the top of the burr chamber and the front and then blowing out with several bangs on a lens hood. I do this every grind - only takes seconds. The chute is always completely clear and no grinds on the accessible parts of the burrs and chamber. It dislodges a visible quality of grinds.

I can understand being sceptical - it's proper scientific caution. But I've been very meticulous about this. You're right about alignment with 83mm burrs - I should check this using the online video. I'll also do this at some point, but the coffee is great so no urgency. I may be lucky to have good alignment already. Even with re-grinding M&S ready ground House Decaf (decent Columbian) I get good coffee. With fresh beans it's something else.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

Retention is the amount of coffee that remains inside the grinder between grinding sessions, despite your best efforts. That basically means that, unless you purge some beans at the start of every session, your first shot will have a good proportion of stale coffee.

What espresso machine have you done these grinder comparisons on?


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

dev said:


> Retention is the amount of coffee that remains inside the grinder between grinding sessions, despite your best efforts. That basically means that, unless you purge some beans at the start of every session, your first shot will have a good proportion of stale coffee. What espresso machine have you done these grinder comparisons on?


Yes - that's my definition of retention. There's no need to purge anything, because nothing would come out. There is no stale coffee apart from what you could only clear out by unscrewing the top and removing the burrs themselves. The burr chamber is brushed and blown out and the chute is completely empty, and so is the funnel. This is done every time. I use a long handle brush with stout bristles and the lens hood is very efficient - I hit it around six times in rapid succession because it springs back every time. I went through quite a few lens hoods to get one that springs back. I used a Classic in a controlled way as described. I did a large number of test shots and recorded and examined the data in Excel. I'm a bit of a data nerd. I should really make a YT video of how I grind and clean out all the retained grinds to show how this can be done quickly and effectively with the right mods.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

If you are using a stock Classic there are bigger variables that come to play than grinder burr dimensions.

Even a heavily modified Classic will still have a degree o variability, especially for consecutive shots.

The point I'm trying to make here is that there are always greater variables in the shot preparation routine that will influence the result greater than burr size. Even commercial machines with huge boilers exhibit a degree of variability during a busy day and the same goes for grinder consistency.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

dev said:


> If you are using a stock Classic there are bigger variables that come to play than grinder burr dimensions.
> 
> Even a heavily modified Classic will still have a degree o variability, especially for consecutive shots.
> 
> The point I'm trying to make here is that there are always greater variables in the shot preparation routine that will influence the result greater than burr size. Even commercial machines with huge boilers exhibit a degree of variability during a busy day and the same goes for grinder consistency.


If you have the space for a larger burr commercial grinder which provides more consistent grinds than say a Rancilio Rocky or Gaggia MDF then why not remove that variable?


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> If you have the space for a larger burr commercial grinder which provides more consistent grinds than say a Rancilio Rocky or Gaggia MDF then why not remove that variable?


Yes exactly. Get the grinder right first, then optimise the rest of the system. Saying "grinders can't be assumed to make a difference because there are other variables" is potentially something to look at if you were doing a major scientific analysis. In practice, there's enough user feedback that grinders do make a difference and I don't see any value in not optimising that variable right from the outset. Eliminating retention and using large burrs is a no-brainer for me. And you should never be in a position where you need to purge a grinder when you can clean out after every shot. Not when you're single dosing. Coffee shops and dosers are something else.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

Upgrading grinders based on burr size is ridiculous.

I've never heard anyone preferring an 83mm burr Major over a 65mm burr K30. And I would certainly take a well aligned Super Jolly over a beat-up Major.

Since you're not taking your grinder apart after each session there will always be coffee that sticks to the inside of the grinding chamber that no amount of puffing will dislodge but it will be replaced with fresher coffee at the start of your next session. That's why true zero retention single dose grinders have a straight through design or even vertical/angled burrs.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Aren't we getting a little off track, the OP was asking about brewed?

What is the "consistency" of a Rocky, Mini, Major set for 800um average vs a Forte with BG burrs? (Rhetorical, because no one has such data).


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

That's why I recommended a cheaper Sette with BG burrs.

Or the upcoming OE Apex if time is not an issue.


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

dev said:


> Upgrading grinders based on burr size is ridiculous. I've never heard anyone preferring an 83mm burr Major over a 65mm burr K30. And I would certainly take a well aligned Super Jolly over a beat-up Major. Since you're not taking your grinder apart after each session there will always be coffee that sticks to the inside of the grinding chamber that no amount of puffing will dislodge but it will be replaced with fresher coffee at the start of your next session. That's why true zero retention single dose grinders have a straight through design or even vertical/angled burrs.


"Upgrading grinders based on burr size is ridiculous". Really? We're not going to agree on this, period. You're not understanding what I'm saying here and why I'm saying it. I'm sure you see it the same way, but since I've set up elaborate procedures to optimise the grinding process this doesn't worry me.

I take MWJB's point about the OP, but who knows what direction he's going in eventually? This kind of conversation comes under the umbrella of the title "grinder upgrade benefit question" in the grinder forum. There will always be questions about the benefits of Titan grinders and large burrs. There are already long threads on other forums about Titan grinders with a lot of user feedback in semi-controlled sessions. Of course this contains a subjective element, this can't be denied, but where this is the best we have to date I'm not going to ignore it where the alternative is no user feedback at all.


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