# Frustrated Classic User - Help me with grinder upgrade



## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

Hey All

Like the 5 million people that have no doubt come before... I treated myself to a Gaggia Classic this Christmas









Now, I have spent an unhealthy amount of time reading up on espresso, tamping, distribution etc etc, however, I have only had a few drinkable shots.

I have been throwing Hasbean and locally roasted beans at my setup and getting buggar all in return.

I can pour an acceptable (not great by any means) shot, and then repeat EVERYTHING exactly and get an awful awful shot on my next attempt.

Now I am pretty sure my problem is my grinder, I know they are often the weak link, and this is a very weak grinder. A Solis 166.

I have done the mods to make it finer, but I just don't think it is capable of creating a good consistent grind. One minute it can choke a machine, the next, its gushes through, even when dose and tamp remain consistent.

So predictably, I am after some advice from people who have taken this journey before me.

I want to replace this grinder with something more suitable before I go mad.


Budget is £250 or so.

I only drink espresso or espresso based drinks.

If I can get this working and convince myself I am capable of good shots, I might upgrade to a better machine in the future, I lust after a Rocket R58, a grinder that would produce suitable grinds for that kind of budget would be ace, but I know this might be unrealistic goal.

 I have a Gaggia Classic that has been modded with Silvia steam wand, and pressure lowered to 9bar.


Sorry for the long post guys, just wanted to give a bit of background and pre-empt some of the questions you might ask

Thanks in advance you lovely lot

Aaron


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Used compak k10, or any mazzer (ok, ok, I got my k10 for 300)


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## Pablo (Mar 19, 2011)

If you're happy with buying a used grinder, you should be able to pick up a Mazzer Super Jolly in good condition for that amount.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Aaron, commiserations! I have a Eureka Mignon for sale in 2 weeks. Ask anyone who has or does own one and they will tell you that they are solid, and produce a fantastic in the cup experience. By now, I am sure most on know I think the Vario is pants, and I would still ask what a commercial grinder like a Mazzer Super Jolly really has in the domestic scene, especially when coupled to a Classic or similar. They are commercial because they are ideally suited to producing many shots per hour.

You can see the Mignon here at Bellabarista where I bought it from.

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-grinders/coffee-grinders/eureka-mignon-instantaneo-grinder-auto-manual-chrome-557.html

I want £200 for her and I have the original box


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

Hey Guys!

Thanks for the replies.

I am not too sure about a used grinder, I guess if the deal is very good I would consider it.

I guess the most important thing for me at the moment is to get a grinder that gets me a great coffee on the Classic

If I keep the coffee bug I have at the moment and I choose to upgrade I am prepared for the fact that the grinder I get now might not be up to the job.

In my head I was thinking of something like a Rocky. Which if I get upgraditis, I could chuck on the bay and make some money back.

I am nervous about spending a fortune on a grinder before I have had any good coffee, which is a bit of a catch 22 I guess.

I could probably afford to spend £500 or so at the moment, but it is a big risk, far bigger than the available workspace in my current kitchen too









Decisions Decisions


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Have you changed to the proper baskets and removed the pressurised one?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

No Aaron, it can be really frustrating chasing the sweetspot. Basically, there are three important variables to get right. These are (IMO) in this order: grind, doseage and tamp. I upgraded my kit a while ago and was amazed at the improvement in shot quality but only after I had tweaked the three variables above. Clearly, the grinder is paramount. Never heard of a Solis - is it a burr grinder? For £250.00 you should get a very decent grinder. Eureka Mignon and Ibertal MC2 are well respected. Once you've got your new grinder, pull a shot and time from the moment the esprsso begins to flow until you've pulled around 1oz espresso. This should take between 25-30 seconds max. A couple of shot glasses help here. Incidentally, from the moment you hit the brew button to moment the espresso appears should be 5-6 seconds. Note, this is not to be counted as part of the above 25-30 seconds. If the shot takes less than 25-30 secs, adjust your grind finer. If the shot takes longer, adjust to slightly coarser grind. Keep the dosage to 16grms to begin with. Don't change the dosage and tamp pressure until you are pulling shots that hit the 25-30 sec duration. You should then start to enjoy consistent shot quality. It's best to keep to the same beans as well as different beans can require different levels of grind and doseage. Above all, don't despair, it will come right and you will enjoy great shots.


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

Glenn said:


> Have you changed to the proper baskets and removed the pressurised one?


Hey Glenn

Yes, using a standard basket, got rid of the pressurised one instantly









Aaron


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

The Eureka Mignon at £200 is a steal


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

dfk41 said:


> Aaron, commiserations! I have a Eureka Mignon for sale in 2 weeks. Ask anyone who has or does own one and they will tell you that they are solid, and produce a fantastic in the cup experience. By now, I am sure most on know I think the Vario is pants, and I would still ask what a commercial grinder like a Mazzer Super Jolly really has in the domestic scene, especially when coupled to a Classic or similar. They are commercial because they are ideally suited to producing many shots per hour.
> 
> You can see the Mignon here at Bellabarista where I bought it from.
> 
> ...


The k10 brought out immense levels of depth the mini I had, simply never did, even with fresh burrs. Even on a classic.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

aaroncornish said:


> Hey Guys!
> 
> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> ...


A mazzer, will keep its value. They also are incredibly well built, unlike a plastic consumer grinder. You most likely won't need to do anything, at worst burrs with a used mazzer.


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## CoffeeExmoor (Mar 10, 2011)

'from the moment you hit the brew button to moment the espresso appears should be 5-6 seconds. Note, this is not to be counted as part of the above 25-30seconds.'

Forgive me not using the 'official' quoting process - I haven't spotted how to do that yet:act-up:

I was intrigued to note your statement that the 'non-productive' 5-6 seconds is not included in the 25-30 seconds quoted for preferred shot time. Whilst I have seen references to the basic 25-30 seconds in very many posts I have never before seen the suggestion that this only comes into play after the shot starts to run. Can you please confirm that this is actually the case because - as a relative newby - this would be a new ball game to me.

Thanks


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm under the impression that timer starts at button press. So the waiting time is inclusive.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

i'm pretty certain the time is supposed to start from the moment you hit the brew button, not when the stream of coffee first appears. this is something that i wondered about as well at first.


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## origmarm (Mar 7, 2012)

I second Glenn's comment on the Mignon. I have one and rate it very highly. I would take the secondhand offer.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

the whole "wait" time was discussed in another thread, and no real conclusion was reached.

IN general, the 25-30 seconds starts from when you flip the switch. But there will be a machine to machine variation in this. e.g. it can sometimes take quite a while for water to start pouring from the brew head of my E61 type group. whereas in the classic, the water came out a bit quicker. So the wait time will vary by a few seconds between machines.

but, as long as you're keeping your counting consistent for your machine, that should be all that matters. As long as its between mid 20's and early 30's you should be doing ok


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Remember that time is just a guide that you are in the right ballpark. You should not be aiming for a specific time as proof of a good extraction, but when around 25secs you know you are near. I would then scrap the timer and adjust to taste.


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## SGX (Jan 9, 2011)

Hi Aaron,

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but after reading your thread and seeing you going up to £500 for a grinder I would suggest >>

Buy a 2nd hand Rancilio Silvia, which in my opinion will out perform the Classic any day of the week. Miss Silvia is a bit of a madam, but once you get a feel for how she behaves, you can get fantastic repeatable shots.

The Classic is a machine I see lots of people going for, mainly driven by the fact they dont want to shell out more than £200, which is not much ££ for a decent espresso machine. The reality is, the Classic may look OK for £200, but the quality of it's shots are not great. But, I guess, it's all down to the individual's taste...

In terms of grinder, you could gran a used Mazzer SJ (don't be put off by 2nd hand grinders, as solid grinders last for a LONG time. Or, as a poster above states - the Eureka Mignon is also a very good option (I strongly recommend).

In short:

Get shot of the Classic. Buy a machine that WILL give you repeatable shots. The Classic is £200 for a reason.

Invest in a good grinder and don't be put off by the 2nd hand tag (it's not important).


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

Thanks for that view SGX

I had a similar internal dialogue when I decided to go with the Classic.

Due to gift vouchers I managed to get the Classic for £120, so that swayed my decision. In my head I thought the money saved on the machine would free more money for a grinder.

I did a lot of reading on the Classic vs the Silvia. The general view was that the Silvia was the best, but that the classic is capable of good shots.

I made the decision to get the classic as a starter machine, to get practicing the techniques etc.

I am not intending to keep it long term, within a year or so I would like to get a Rocket, hence not wanting to spend considerably more on the Silvia.

Thanks again.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Very sensible. The Silvia is not significantly better than the Classic to justify the greater expense, especially when you know you are going to upgrade in the future. Spending more on the grinder will show a greater quality in shot far above the difference between a Silvia and Classic.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

forzajuve said:


> Very sensible. The Silvia is not significantly better than the Classic to justify the greater expense, especially when you know you are going to upgrade in the future. Spending more on the grinder will show a greater quality in shot far above the difference between a Silvia and Classic.


Agreed, Silvia is better, but not significantly better..


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## origmarm (Mar 7, 2012)

forzajuve said:


> Very sensible. The Silvia is not significantly better than the Classic to justify the greater expense, especially when you know you are going to upgrade in the future. Spending more on the grinder will show a greater quality in shot far above the difference between a Silvia and Classic.


I agree with this completely. I took this approach a while back to learn and wait for the money for a significantly better machine. Mind you then kids, SWMBO etc... got in the way of those plans but that's another story...


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

I had a gaggia classic before the izzo. At the time I moved from a mazzer mini to the k10. By far the biggest difference compared to the izzo vs the classic.

The classic isn't so bad for single shots of espresso.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

i had a gaggia carezza (pretty much the same as a classic) and i knew that a silvia wouldnt be enough of an upgrade for me, so i didnt bother wasting my money. I just saved a bit until i could get something approaching my dream machine









I love my cherub, but in the back of my mind, lingers the concept of a rocket R58


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## SGX (Jan 9, 2011)

aaroncornish said:


> Thanks for that view SGX
> 
> I had a similar internal dialogue when I decided to go with the Classic.
> 
> ...


No probs...

It's all about opinions on here.

Reading the above posts - Classic Vs Silvia debate.

I hear what people are saying, but personally I've not seen many great shots come out of Classics. Sure the cost is a fair bit higher, but Silvia's resell for a decent fee, so it's not like your pouring ££ down the drain.

For me it all comes down to the quality of the espresso, and the Silvia wins every time on that front.

I'd rather pay £350 for a great shot, than £150 for a sour one!


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## series530 (Jan 4, 2013)

So far at least, I find the Classic isn't that bad. The biggest issue for me is pushing quantity through. With just one boiler, if you want to make lots of milk based coffee drinks its something of an issue. However, to upgrade to a dual boiler and get good quality, I am told, costs a lot of money.

Coupled with a decent grinder, and I love my Eureka Mignon, the classic can do a decent job. It all comes down to understanding how to get consistently good coffee and to realise what the root cause is when the coffee comes out inconsistently.

I have seen an order of magnitude improvement in my coffee's having moved from tinned ground to freshly ground from Union Roasted and from having had no instruction to having had some instruction from Glen.

Yes, spending a fortune may improve coffee and its consistency to some degree but understanding how to extract the flavours in the first place is far more important than throwing money at hardware, IMHO.

Buy the Eureka, its a good deal and maybe consider putting the saving toward getting some one to one instruction on coffee preparation. It's fun and it will set you up for life.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

certainly if your focus is milk based drinks (as it is with me) even a silvia isnt going to be a huge help. Its still a pretty small boiler. For milk based drinks, a sensibly priced HX unit does the job nicely









but then i'm biased!


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

Hey Everyone!

Thanks for all the great advice so far.

So looks like my options are;

- A second hand SJ or MM (bit nervous about second hand, like the luxury of a warranty)

- A second hand Eureka (or maybe even a new one)

- A Rocky (but this is likely to need replacing if I upgrade my machine, so cheap short term, but would likely lose some money in the long term)

Does any one have experience of these grinders and personal opinions?

So what would you lot do?


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## Callum_T (Dec 23, 2012)

I've heard bad things about the rocky - when its stepped, step less mod should improve things I guess. I don't think the rocky will hold much value at all especially if bought from new

I was tentative about my SJ but the flavours in my shots have improved a lot, it's abit of a faff soley due to the doser, but the doser does help to declump.

Your most likely to find an ex commercial SJ hanging deep within the realms of gumtree and preloved (ones on eBay will get snapped up by fellow coffee lovers) well within the "it would be rude not too" price band.

Ex commercial means you'll probably looking at an auto fill which is no biggy really you'll just need to strip the sensors out when you take it apart (which you will to clean and check burrs)

IMO if your looking for the best justification of where to invest your money look at SJs - I'm confident in saying ill make a profit on mine if I wanted / needed to part with it.

Bottom line - make sure you have the space!


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

aaroncornish said:


> Hey Everyone!
> 
> Thanks for all the great advice so far.
> 
> ...


I personally don't get why people are so nervous of buying a second hand commercial grinder that will outlast and grind better than a plastic rubbish domestic grinder.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

used commercial grinders that have been stripped and serviced are a much better option than a predominantly home use grinder, the bigger the motor , the slow the revs, the better the grind (in most cases), take the plunge get a used mazzer sj or mini, they are pretty much bomb proof and will give you the perfect grind for the Classic and for your future upgrade.


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## Pdalowsky (Dec 31, 2012)

CoffeeExmoor said:


> 'from the moment you hit the brew button to moment the espresso appears should be 5-6 seconds. Note, this is not to be counted as part of the above 25-30seconds.'
> 
> Forgive me not using the 'official' quoting process - I haven't spotted how to do that yet:act-up:
> 
> ...


glad I wasnt the only one!!


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## Pdalowsky (Dec 31, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> No Aaron, it can be really frustrating chasing the sweetspot. Basically, there are three important variables to get right. These are (IMO) in this order: grind, doseage and tamp. I upgraded my kit a while ago and was amazed at the improvement in shot quality but only after I had tweaked the three variables above. Clearly, the grinder is paramount. Never heard of a Solis - is it a burr grinder? For £250.00 you should get a very decent grinder. Eureka Mignon and Ibertal MC2 are well respected. Once you've got your new grinder, pull a shot and time from the moment the esprsso begins to flow until you've pulled around 1oz espresso. This should take between 25-30 seconds max. A couple of shot glasses help here. Incidentally, from the moment you hit the brew button to moment the espresso appears should be 5-6 seconds. Note, this is not to be counted as part of the above 25-30 seconds. If the shot takes less than 25-30 secs, adjust your grind finer. If the shot takes longer, adjust to slightly coarser grind. Keep the dosage to 16grms to begin with. Don't change the dosage and tamp pressure until you are pulling shots that hit the 25-30 sec duration. You should then start to enjoy consistent shot quality. It's best to keep to the same beans as well as different beans can require different levels of grind and doseage. Above all, don't despair, it will come right and you will enjoy great shots.


Sorry if this is an idiot question, but i understood the 25 second rule to apply to a double shot? and not 1oz?


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## tribs (Feb 21, 2012)

My double shots are about an ounce


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## Pdalowsky (Dec 31, 2012)

ah , i had thought an ounce was 30ml, and a 2oz (double) was 60ml....

hence often using two shot glasses and getting a 30ml single in each?


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## frustin (Feb 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Aaron, commiserations! I have a Eureka Mignon for sale in 2 weeks. Ask anyone who has or does own one and they will tell you that they are solid, and produce a fantastic in the cup experience. By now, I am sure most on know I think the Vario is pants, and I would still ask what a commercial grinder like a Mazzer Super Jolly really has in the domestic scene, especially when coupled to a Classic or similar. They are commercial because they are ideally suited to producing many shots per hour.
> 
> You can see the Mignon here at Bellabarista where I bought it from.
> 
> ...


Hi,

Did you put this on sale yet? I don't know what the life span is for a grinder and I hope I don't sound out of turn, but I'd have to ask why you're selling such an item. I'm just starting out on the coffee machine road with (perhaps) a Cherub, so a grinder is a necessity. I saw your offer to that chap with the Classic and thought perhaps you might extend it to me if it's still available.

Thanks,

Frustin


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Life span of a grinder : Long.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

RisingPower said:


> Life span of a grinder : Long.


sometimes very long


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

I am no further on in my search for a grinder!

I REALLY like the look of the Mazzer Mini E Type A - http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-grinders/coffee-grinders/mazzer-mini-electronic-type-a-aluminium.html

I just wonder if it is a bit over the top for me.

Other than that, I think it would be a Rocky for £225, and accept that at some point in the future, if I do decide to up my machine I might need a new grinder.

Are there any Rocky owners, what do you think? I am aware of the issues with the chute, and stale grinds (an issue the £325 more expensive Mazzer also shares)


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## Pdalowsky (Dec 31, 2012)

Pdalowsky said:


> ah , i had thought an ounce was 30ml, and a 2oz (double) was 60ml....
> 
> hence often using two shot glasses and getting a 30ml single in each?


any guidance on this?


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## Callum_T (Dec 23, 2012)

One oz is 30ml by volume a double should be 60ml

But do things by weight - and a proper brew ratio 16g dry in 25g espresso out (this is often around 1oz by volume)

Start extracting by volume - scales off eBay and use something like a 1.7 brew ratio (dry in * brew ratio = espresso out) and stick to this and time it then you'll home in on "god shots".

Then all the technical PIDs will take over for varying brew temp.

But honest start doing things by weight - it's easier and gives better shots to my tastes all you'll need is scales off eBay.


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## Nimhbus (Feb 12, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Aaron, commiserations! I have a Eureka Mignon for sale in 2 weeks. Ask anyone who has or does own one and they will tell you that they are solid, and produce a fantastic in the cup experience. By now, I am sure most on know I think the Vario is pants, and I would still ask what a commercial grinder like a Mazzer Super Jolly really has in the domestic scene, especially when coupled to a Classic or similar. They are commercial because they are ideally suited to producing many shots per hour.
> 
> You can see the Mignon here at Bellabarista where I bought it from.
> 
> ...


hi,

do you still have the Euereka for sale? if so i'd be very interested.

James


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