# New lever machine



## 4085

I have heard rumblings from within the bowels of Bella Barista that they will shortly have a new lever machine for sale. It will be unique to them and just waiting for the final specifications to be made available.

Might have some photos and info tomorrow.


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## CoffeeJohnny

Will be interesting to see. Give some of us clueless pump boys to think about


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## Jason1wood

That's interesting. Just wonder if it'll be in my price range?!?


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## Xpenno

Interesting, looking forward to the update


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## DavecUK

Rodneys been on the phone to me a few times about it...Yeah I think the lever heads will like it and I think they will like the price too.


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## coffeechap

Looking forward to getting my hands on this one..


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## Soll

Would that be the Quickmill Achiles ?


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## glevum

This is interesting. watching this thread!


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## coffeechap

Soll said:


> Would that be the Quickmill Achiles ?


No it wouldn't !


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## glevum

hope its not a ponte vecchio.


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## coffeechap

glevum said:


> hope its not a ponte vecchio.


Not even close mark


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## 4085

I have had another email in from Rodney. Things are moving on now. As soon as the name is agreed they will send me over the full specs, but my belief is that it is a development between Bella Barista and Quickmill. It is an existing Qm product (Achille?) that has been heavily remodeled, for example a 3 litre boiler. The result is a new case and a machine smaller than a Duetto


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## glevum

wow, cant wait for this! excited its a QM product as their build quality and styling is very good.


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## Soll

So it's an improved Achiles with some new bells and whistles! I can feel another raffle coming on


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## NickR

The Achiles looks like a great machine, great styling and a rotary pump - an improved version sounds very, very tempting


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## Soll

As far as levers go it has to measure up to the L1, I guess it will be in the same price range to! I can feel a bout of upgradeitus coming on


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## 4085

Hope to have some pictures, today/tomorrow......I have also been told that it has the Bosco group fitted to it! Sorry to drag this on but BB are doing th London Coffee Festival so it may have to be after that when I get the information.


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## glevum

Thanks Dave. Cant see anything being an L1 killer, but if its cheaper & got a rotary pump it could sway me.


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## 4085

Right, here we go with a bit more info. The venture is joint between BB and QuickMill. They have taken an Achille and made a few changes. The boiler size has been cut down to 3 liters and because of this, the size of the machine has been reduced. Now, the Achille has a rotary pump and all this does, ir take water from the reservoir into the boiler and plays no part in pulling the shot. this has been replaced on the prototype with a standard vibe pump which is fitted to the prototype. Talk of possibly replacing that with a diaphragm pump. The element has been reduced in size as well, but I am told from cold to working pressure is 8 minutes.

With the savings made a pid has been fitted and more importantly, the Bosco group. I am sot sure yet whether this has been paired to a thermo syphon or whether it is a 'dipper'. I guess that is what the prototype is for.

Price, it is going to be available at £1650...........yep, £1650, sold exclusively through Bella Barista so it comes with their service levels and a 2 year warranty. here are a few pictures of it;


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## Soll

£1650 ? Wow! I was expecting well over £2000, it does look very impressive don't you think guy's? I'm sure BB can sell one to the forum for a fantastic raffle prize.


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## 4085

The Achille of Coffee Italia is £2199.........be interesting to see how Quickmill react to all of this as I think the domestic friendly specification of the BB offering, which I am told is to be called the Veloce is much more home friendly than its big brother.


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## froggystyle

Shiny!

That looks damn sexy!


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## Soll

Veloce translated means fast, and at that price it will move quickly! It will be interesting to read reviews on it and compare it to L1 particularly in the cup and cheaper to...


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## 4515

liking that

13 char


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## 4085

I know people will all say, how does it compare to the L1.......but that is not what it is really about. If you put a racing driver into a ferrari, he will be able to do things with it that you or I could only dream of. I think the machine needs to be looked at and tested and commented upon, but whether anyone will ever really be able to say it is better or worse than any other machine is subjective.


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## Soll

But the L1 has been the bench mark for levers and folk will automatically compare it with anything new that's coming onto the market, either way it looks great and is very affordable if your a lever lover! Can't wait for the reviews


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## coffeechap

Shame veloce has already been used by Kees van der western, and this is no Kees, could have come up with something unique in Italian beginning with v!


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## 4515

dfk41 said:


> I know people will all say, how does it compare to the L1.......but that is not what it is really about. If you put a racing driver into a ferrari, he will be able to do things with it that you or I could only dream of. I think the machine needs to be looked at and tested and commented upon, but whether anyone will ever really be able to say it is better or worse than any other machine is subjective.


Thing is, non racing drivers have been reviewing the L1 for over a year now. If they can say an L1 is better than another machine, surely the same would apply here. I'm not saying that from a Sage vs the world type standpoint. What I'm saying is that there are plenty on here who are qualified to make an informed comparison of the two machines in terms of build quality, ease of use, whats in the cup etc.

Its a lever that is in the ball park of the L1's price - people will compare the two - I'd say its very much about the comparison

edit: I'll be looking at the reviews to make a choice at some point, depending on other choices this year. This has thrown me a curved ball. All that said, I would want to play with one if it looks like being a contender


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## Jason1wood

Hmmm looks like I may hold off buying a Brewtus or Rocket now!!!

That looks damn fine.

Never used a lever so may wait to see the reviews.


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## Geordie Boy

Looks good. More choice is always a good thing


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## glevum

That's my L1 on hold for now!


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## glevum

Isn't the Bosco group identical to the L1 group?


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## Gangstarrrrr

Agreed, this is definitely a curve ball. The L1 doesn't look like a slam dunk anymore.


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## Mrboots2u

Don't let Reiss here you say that









He hates it being call the bosco group

is this thermosyphon or dipper btw ?

i believe the l1 group has some secret Jiggery pokery don't to it , somewhere in Switzerland .

its not identical to the bosco group but I believe is either similar or the basis for the l1 group .


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## Soll

Ah! It's the jiggery pokey bit that's going to separate these two levers


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## Mrboots2u

No idea soll . as always the best advice is try one and make your own mind up.

I do know reiss is quite adamant it isn't the "same" as the bosco group


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## Soll

always wise to try before one buys Mrboots ! Beauty is in the eye of the puller


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## NickR

Pity that the the rotary pump has been junked - for me that would have put it head and shoulders above the L1 if the prices were similar. Very nice box though, I hope the front panel is braced in the same way as the Achille. Like everyone else here, can't wait for Davec's "closer look"


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## 4085

The rotary pump is irrelevant. It plays no part in the shot at all and just takes water from the tank to the boiler. The Bosco group is the Bosco group! If there is something different behind it (me thinks you mean the Fracino designed syphon) then that is not to do with the group, or am I wrong!


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## coffeechap

The group is not made by the small Southern Italian firm named bosco it is merely the group that is shared on their machines as well as the l1 and the Kees idrocompresso


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## coffeechap

NickR said:


> Pity that the the rotary pump has been junked - for me that would have put it head and shoulders above the L1 if the prices were similar. Very nice box though, I hope the front panel is braced in the same way as the Achille. Like everyone else here, can't wait for Davec's "closer look"


Not sure if davec is taking a closer look, but I will be at some point.


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## Mrboots2u

I dont know if your wrong or right dfk. I am only relating the discussions reiss had re the group on the LONDINIUM forum. I don't know " which group " it is, I just know reiss was adamant that it isn't the same as the off the shelf bosco group. I'd probably bow to his knowledge on it. End of they day its the taste in the cup that matters

Could be better could be worse , purely on a individual and subjective level of course


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## Mrboots2u

coffeechap said:


> The group is not made by the small Southern Italian firm named bosco it is merely the group that is shared on their machines as well as the l1 and the Kees idrocompresso


Thanks ! ........


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## DavidBondy

Hmm. Apart from the cup warming space on the top I'm still leaning towards the L1.

This will need careful thought. I could see perhaps buying this and then wishing I'd bought the L1 in the first place but not the other way around. I've sort of come to see the L1 as the next aspirational step up from my ECM Mechanika.

David


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## 4085

Gents, until the prototype lands and has been through some hands, then we are all guessing. On paper, it looks a very interesting proposition, but, there again, so does tripe and onions! At a saving of £350 over the L1 and £550 over the Achille, it is definitely worth a look at. I am sure those for Londinium will come out hell bent on defending the L1 and attacking the new kid on the block. Me, I own an L1 (actually, I have had 3) and I am quite happy to be subjective and wait and see. With a pid and the likes (yes, a pid on a lever!) then it is going to attract a bit of interest from anyone who does not want to jump to an L! but does not fancy the Strega.

Time will tell! It is nice and shiny though (if that matters) and comes with a 2 year warranty for peace of mind.


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## Mrboots2u

More good levers is a good thing

Tripe and onions is a bad thing

Subject to taste though


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## DavecUK

NickR said:


> Pity that the the rotary pump has been junked - for me that would have put it head and shoulders above the L1 if the prices were similar. Very nice box though, I hope the front panel is braced in the same way as the Achille. Like everyone else here, can't wait for Davec's "closer look"


* If I were you, I would be glad that the rotary pump has been junked, it serves you no advantage whatsoever. it simply adds cost, complexity and higher repair costs, to a machine that doesn't require it*. A vibe pump is more than adequate, much cheaper to replace and will have a service life as long as a rotary in this particular machine. It's a sad thing that there are quite a few changes the manufacturers put in because of what they perceive people want or even forum comments (which come back to them via retailers). It's sad because some of the really neat stuff you do want, you don't realise you want and it never gets into the machines.

I have suggested that in the future (it will probably be quite a while) that QM look into a 12V Diaphragm pump., which of course cannot run at pressure of Vibe and rotarys (well not the type I am suggesting), but have their own peculiar set of advantages. The problem as always is convincing the Italians to change from what they know and like, just because I "think" it's worth a try. However, even if the Italians never do it, I would expect some enterprising owner might well try in 7-10 years when replacing their Vibe pump.

As for a closer look, I wasn't going to bother as I am not sure the machine would sell in high enough volumes to make it worth my time doing one. Contrary to popular belief, I don't dislike lever machines at all, I just prefer my own machines to have motors doing the work as i can't get a lever under the kitchen cupboards. So in this case you may not (probably wont) see a closer look from me. This will not be because I don't like it, or gave something a private scathing review, it will just be me not wanting to spend my time doing one.


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## 4515

Rotary pump would be a big plus for me so a shame its gone

A lever with a vibe pump rattling away to pump water takes away some of the charm imo. and I'm too lazy to plumb one in where I would ideally site the machine


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## 4085

Everyone has an opinion and that's just great!


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## coffeechap

dfk41 said:


> Everyone has an opinion and that's just great!


Wow from mention of a diaphragm to this that was a quick retraction mr kidd


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## 4085

Not really, I had not read the post below which already states the fact


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## Orangertange

Is it 1650 before vat? Probably me thinks Makes it the same price as the l1 and you don't get the nice wooden handles,

haha one owner already on defensive,

Pluss not really British made,

it'll probably come down to if you want a Aston or a Ferrari


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## 4085

I believe £1650 includes vat, and remember, the L1 is made by that most British sounding of names, Fracino.......LOL

You can buy a lot of handles for £350, well, from the bloke that makes mine anyway! And dont start me off on endangered woods!


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## Orangertange

dfk41 said:


> I believe £1650 includes vat, and remember, the L1 is made by that most British sounding of names, Fracino.......LOL
> 
> You can buy a lot of handles for £350, well, from the bloke that makes mine anyway! And dont start me off on endangered woods!


haha tell me about never heard off wenge before the l1 and I 'm a tree surgeon!!

how have you owned 3? thought they where built to last


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## 4085

3 is a long story.......had a Luxe and sold it.........bought a standard and sold it........bought a second hand luxe again and still have it!

Wenge is beautiful wood and I understand why they use it. The guy over on home barrista who makes the handles etc gets some fantastic woods but they on the whole, seem to be endangered etc. I did order a set of Cocobolo from him then cancelled the order. If we had banned Ivory trading many years ago we would not be in the position we are in now. The truth is if it is ethically sourced then that is fine but the USA stuff seems not to be, certainly not for the prioces he quotes anyway!


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## Orangertange

Wise words. Keep meaning to have a go at making some handles myself, sometimes find some nice burrs or root balls amazing what a nice tamper handle can be worth


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## 4085

You ought to! The chap who makes my stuff, I think has stopped speaking to me. I organised for him to send a box of wooden coffee related stuff down to BB before Xmas and it got lost. These things happen!


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## coffeechap

I don't think the way a thing sounds depicts where it is from, the L1 is the only lever machine constructed in England and all but the group are now made here as well...


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## coffeechap

I like all this pre machine hype, just like the ek43 but then some on here objected to that, long may it continue....


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## Spazbarista

Things do seem to get hyped here.

£1650 is a massive chunk of cash. I wouldn't be parting with it for something untried and tested.


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## CoffeeJohnny

For me I may never own a big lever as I simply don't like the look of them ( I have tried to like them) I'll hopefully end up with a caravel. What will be interesting for me is, if this machine is as good as or better than the l1 to see over time if this becomes 'the best' or the l1 retains that title.


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## 4515

Expobarista said:


> Things do seem to get hyped here.
> 
> £1650 is a massive chunk of cash. I wouldn't be parting with it for something untried and tested.


Its not something to buy on a whim. Its a fair saving on an L1 but if the L1 is worth the extra, the saving wouldnt be much of a consideration


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## Soll

The only way to settle this is to organise a Lever Day, That way everyone can play around with them all and come to their own conclusions


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## 4515

Soll said:


> The only way to settle this is to organise a Lever Day, That way everyone can play around with them all and come to their own conclusions


Great idea. I'm sure that there would be plenty up for that. Maybe discounts on the day from the main players.


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## Mrboots2u

Interested to see how effective / useful/ accurate a pid on a hx is.

Will you be getting some lighter coffees in to gauge the effective of changing the temperature dave?


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## coffeechap

working dog said:


> Its not something to buy on a whim. Its a fair saving on an L1 but if the L1 is worth the extra, the saving wouldnt be much of a consideration


I can probably organise this if there is enough interest perhaps I the autumn, I have lots of older levers that I can bring and am sure we can rustle up the pretenders to the crown between us.


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## Mrboots2u

coffeechap said:


> I can probably organise this if there is enough interest perhaps I the autumn, I have lots of older levers that I can bring and am sure we can rustle up the pretenders to the crown between us.


 I wouldn't be buying but I'd be up for that ......


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## 4515

Think ill buy dfk's once he's had a play with it.


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## urbanbumpkin

Good idea..............Lever Lever Land!!!


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## Soll

I'll be interested in a Forum Lever Day!


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## 4085

working dog said:


> Think ill buy dfk's once he's had a play with it.


My reputation goes before me again! I might like it so much I want to keep it......anything is possible


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## TonyW

+1 for a lever day. I am grateful to CC & CalumT for the passion & enthusiasm for levers demonstrated at the BB open day in Sep, which whet my appetit for these machines. I'm still learning, and that was my first real experience of levers, so I'd really appreciate an opportunity to try a few machines side-by-side (including an L1, of course) before committing this kind of money.


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## Montana

I'll be interested to see how this goes but it's making my desision ever harder!!


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## oop north

Not made my decision any harder - new machine announced just after I bought mine! Can I just say that nobody is allowed to inform my wife that there is a new machine similar to mine but costing less!


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## oop north

TonyW said:


> I am grateful to CC & CalumT for the passion & enthusiasm for levers demonstrated at the BB open day in Sep, which whet my appetit for these machines


Yes - that day resulted in me getting an LI!


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## coffeechap

Must say, we had the l1 all day at the coffee festival, did not skip a beat, pulled over 100 shots on it! No faff, no flush just great espresso.


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## 4085

I would expect nothing less than that!


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## Montana

oop north said:


> Not made my decision any harder - new machine announced just after I bought mine! Can I just say that nobody is allowed to inform my wife that there is a new machine similar to mine but costing less!


That's the thing, by the time I've made a decision I'll have enough money for a L1!!


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## oop north

Montana said:


> That's the thing, by the time I've made a decision I'll have enough money for a L1!!


Sounds like a plan


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## 4085

I have been silent, as I am still trying to find out more facts. I have been told but not confirmed, that it is also using a thermosyphon. If that is the case, then to a non engineer type like myself, it sounds very interesting. If QM have their usual build quality then again, for the £ it sounds interesting. I think the protype is on its way as we speak, so no doubt some lucky person will get their hands on for a closer look soon


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## Soll

Does the L1 use a thermosyphon David, if so it seems Quickmill are trying to get as close to the L1 as possible! Hmm!!


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## Mrboots2u

Yes the l1 uses a thermosyphon

has a one confirmed if this machine does or not


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## Soll

Just received the Bella Barista latest news letter and they mention the new lever, I noticed that it has an option for 2 spring lever system ! Does that make any difference to the pull apart from maybe being harder ?


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## DavidBondy

Exactly the question I was going to ask Soll! Also, what is the difference between this and the Achille?

DB


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## 4085

Soll, BB think that a dual spring would be nice......it destroys the shot but it will be an option I guess. It gives a far higher bar pressure. I think that in parts of Italy, where robusta plays a large part it actually is beneficial but in single origin beans it is a no no.

David, the Veloce is based on the Achille which has a 6 litre boiler therefore a larger case, the cheaper Astoria group compared to the often referred to Bosco group (same as L1), a PID (god knows why!). The new one is 3 litre boiler and they have also swopped the Achille rotary pump for a vibe. This means all in all the new one is smaller and at £1650, substantially cheaper than the Achille which should make it attractive to the home owner


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## DavidBondy

Thank you David. The agony of choice eh?


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## Mrboots2u

Londinium toyed with the idea of a double spring , but then dropped it from with the opinion it didn't give as good a shot in terms of taste profile, if my memory serve me right . Couldn't comment so I'll again bow to Reiss's greater knowledge on the subject

Reiss did have one ( double spring ) that you could "hire. " I think to try out at one point ....to satisfy those curious enough ......


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## coffeechap

Actually the achille shares the same group as the l1 and bosco. I have spoken to rodney aboput the dual spring, it really is a no no, but will be offered as an option.


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## sjenner

DavidBondy said:


> Thank you David. The agony of choice eh?


David...

How about...

Veloce: shipped from Wellingborough... made in Italy.

Londinium: shipped from Birmingham, where it is made.

Spare parts, a dedicated forum, shop and blog for Londinium, with encouragement to make any servicing or modifications/upgrades oneself...

All of which add up to a machine for life.


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## DavidBondy

Very good points Stephen! I'm 99% on the L1. It's all in my shopping cart on the Londinium site. Just have to pull the trigger. The only thing stopping me is that I need to check the volume of the coffees that I make in the ECM against the max on the L1. I'm not sure that I am going to use the Fellini move!!


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## 4085

Stephen, I can see no sense in your comments at all. If you want to document the history of the L1 and all the problems it has then I am probably the person to have that debate with. I do not want this thread to turn into a war between two machines. Competition is healthy, let's leave it at that.


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## sjenner

dfk41 said:


> Stephen, I can see no sense in your comments at all. If you want to document the history of the L1 and all the problems it has then I am probably the person to have that debate with. I do not want this thread to turn into a war between two machines. Competition is healthy, let's leave it at that.


I am sorry David, but I have had no problems with my Londinium.

From the sound of it though, if you have, they were probably easier to solve with a local firm than they would have been with an overseas one.

I am not interested in a war either, I expect that the Veloce is as good as any of the machines in this category, I just think that Reiss adds the personal touch and along with the other advantages of the localist approach, the L1 is ahead, even of the fabled Dutch machine.

Call me a fanatic... if you like.


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## 4085

Stephen, the reason you get the personal touch from Reiss, is simply that he runs a one man operation so if he does not do it, then no one else will. In addition, Fracino are the only Uk based espresso manufacturer so are you suggesting that anyone who buys a non Fracino machine who is UK based is doing the wrong thing?


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## sjenner

I greatly value the personal touch David, and as I said before, I am sure that the Veloce is a great machine, its big brother is (until now) the closest machine to the L1 in design, the Veloce is closer... smaller boiler, single spring... Why would I criticise that or someone's alternative choice?


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## 4085

sjenner said:


> I greatly value the personal touch David, and as I said before, I am sure that the Veloce is a great machine, its big brother is (until now) the closest machine to the L1 in design, the Veloce is closer... smaller boiler, single spring... Why would I criticise that or someone's alternative choice?


Well, it will soon be in the hands of those who can critique it. It is simple enough to decide if it is a competitor or a pretender........there is no hiding in todays commercial climate!


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## glevum

dfk41 said:


> Well, it will soon be in the hands of those who can critique it. It is simple enough to decide if it is a competitor or a pretender........there is no hiding in todays commercial climate!


And one of these hopefully will grace my kitchen soon, was about to pull the trigger on an L1. Now this QM has put the cat amongst the pigeons.


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## TonyW

Excellent news that we'll soon have some hands-on feedback for these new machines. I was looking at some video of the QM Achille and there seemed to be a lot of flex on the group & front panel as the lever was pulled. I wonder if that's a "bug" or a "feature", and have they made the Veloce any more rigid?


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## 4085

Different spring set up i suspect


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## TonyW

Ah, yes. Another reason not to go for the double spring then.


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## coffeechap

the spring set up will be the same, it will be very interesting to see how this machine flexes and the fit and finish of the machine, I will be doing an indepth (warts and all) review of this machine and if it is as good as it should be then I will certainly be saying this, cant wait to ahve a proper play on it.


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## 4085

and I will be doing a scratch the surface review, looking at nothing in particular as I know noooothing as Manuel would say!


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## NickR

TonyW said:


> Excellent news that we'll soon have some hands-on feedback for these new machines. I was looking at some video of the QM Achille and there seemed to be a lot of flex on the group & front panel as the lever was pulled. I wonder if that's a "bug" or a "feature", and have they made the Veloce any more rigid?


I would be surprised if the Achille does flex substantially. It looks really well designed in that respect. I hope the new machine is as good.

http://www.talkcoffee.com.au/?attachment_id=481

I would also hope that it has boiler insulation, an expansion valve that empties into the drip tray instead of on top of the boiler and good case ventilation to allow condensation to disperse. I could go on, but there isnt a machine on the market that satisfies me at present so I think it unlikely that the QM will either.


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## TonyW

Thanks for the link, Nick. Nice internal photo, and it does look well braced.

I saw a video clip on the Coffesnobs forums that looked quite bad, and they commented that "you can see there's a bit of squat in the frame and flex in the front" - here's the link, although it doesn't seem to be working today: http://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-equipment-extreme-machines-3000/33217-quick-mill-0996-achille.html. It may have been a pre-production machine and/or QM acted on the feedback, because checking Youtube I cannot see the flex on many clips, but it does show on this one ...

Around 1:38, when the lever is pulled:






Is this normal for levers? I am still learning, so maybe I am just expecting too much? Or maybe it's just our overseas cousins being a bit heavy-handed? Anyway, it would be good to know how much the new Veloce flexes, if at all.

+1 for your wish list too, Nick, although I don't mind insulating the boiler myself if necessary. Reiss gave some helpful tips on his LI blog for those that want insulation.


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## coffeechap

it is difficult to compare the two machines, remember we are going to look at the home variant of the achilles not the achilles, so flex may or may not be present. Essentially a well put together lever machine will have minimal flex. the original Londiniums had a small amount of flex but the latest variant has almost none.


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## TonyW

Good point, thanks. Looking forward to your review.


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## GVDub

Also bear in mind that if a machine has rubber feet, what looks like panel flex in a video can simply be the feet compressing and releasing, where nothing _in_ the machine flexes at all.


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## TonyW

That makes sense. It was the potential stress on internals that worried me, but a "Tigger bounce" action is fine by me.


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## coffeechap

to some extent yes, but lever machines not adequately braced on the chasis will flex the chasis


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## 4085

The Veloce has landed!


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## The Systemic Kid

Looks interesting, David - look forward to your thoughts.


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## jeebsy

Looks very pretty


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## Mrboots2u

Landed where?


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## 4085

Bella Barista..........


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## Mrboots2u

Thought it looked a bit minimal for your kitchen.....

Steam wand on the left then?


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## 4085

Yep Boots, all the best steam wands are on the left!


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## Mrboots2u

I'll take your word for it....

When is it landing at yours then


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## Jason1wood

The Chassis and wands and knobs look like they've been taken from the Verona.

Looks great. Is it similar size to the L1?

Couldn't believe the size of your L1 David.

Always thought they'd be much bigger in my minds eye.


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## glevum

Liking the higher sides to hold cups and the wire drip tray.


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## 4085

It is going to be reviewed before I get it as the production models are not far behind so QM need feedback as fast as possible. The pics do look very nice though. here are a few more for those who want to see

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/o18fgwhkuqfh2zf/0KgUbMDR2Z


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## Xpenno

Thanks for the pics Dave, looks really nice, I'm looking forward to seeing how this performs in the cup.


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## Thecatlinux

Call me mystic but I can a see a Londinium Quickmill show down coming real soon with an EK as referee .


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## NickR

I would be very interested in the dimensions. It doesnt look very deep, I hope its going to be stable enough, and what it the nut thing on the front panel in the centre of the drip tray? Could it be that the OPV or the safety valve vent into the drip tray?


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## CallumT

Thecatlinux said:


> Call me mystic but I can a see a Londinium Quickmill show down coming real soon with an EK as referee .


Whole different machine in my opinion, who in there right mind places a PID controller on a lever machine.

The inherent design of that group doesn't need it and it's not even about a need it's about a seemingly industry wide movement to put PID controllers on the steam boilers of HX machines, utterly pointless and it's just brainwashing people into thinking they need to upgrade / need the temperature control. Just highlights what I hate about the so called top dogs in coffee churning out there own utter bulls*** to make sales; it's the same with the EK the money made they should be putting into R&D instead of lapping up the cash on 20 year old technology.

Transparent British manufacturing for me every day of the week...


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## 4085

But the pid is irrelevant Callum IMHO. It was there because BB wanted it, for all the reasons you mention and once they have their feedback I am sure it will vanish. When that happens, technically it might be hard to split the machines up.

If British manufacturing is so transparent, why do we only have one British espresso manufacturer who is doing his hardest to sound Italian!


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## coffeechap

Quickmill sounds very Italian!!


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## glevum

does the PID on the Quickmill replace the pressure stat on the L1?


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## CallumT

glevum said:


> does the PID on the Quickmill replace the pressure stat on the L1?


Yeah, it performs the job of maintaining steam boiler pressure through temperature.

In terms of my thoughts on British manufacture, it's not necessarily about Londinium. I do much of the same with my bikes, I buy British because in bikes there the only guys who give a rats about sealing a hub / bottom bracket without it costing an arm an a leg.

If you were to ask me a choice between a Machine that's been sold to be resold vs sold direct id give you the same answer it's the same with bikes the no middle man option offers a much higher quality product, because there not thinking about redistribution, and selling in bulk combined with a nice profit for that reseller.

Coffee isn't all about Italy, same as Italy isn't all about coffee. Hate it when people think they go hand in hand.

In terms of what the quick mill offers yeah I can see where there coming from, I just think there pricing is inherently flawed, mainly because there stepping into and undercutting a product that can't be undercut, due to above said conditions.

I think my confusion is mainly vented at the recommended retail price, and the fact I think it's overpriced. Each to their own...


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## 4085

Callum, sorry mate, but you do not know anything about the pricing decisions made on the Veloce..and as it happens, I do. the start point was a QM Achiile. Some costly parts were taken away and some less costly ones were added, hence the arrived at figure of £1650. At the moment BB have an exclusive on this machine for 6 months so the sales price is their own, and if you know anything about BB, then you know that they are never cheap.

So, this would make me question how the sales price of an L1 is what it is, and that is by using your rationale!

QM will be selling this machine themselves, in 6 months time if there is sufficient demand. At that price a number of things may happen, including a price hike or price drop.

So, I agree with you about cutting out the middleman, but it makes you wonder though. Is the cost of being made in Britain coupled with there is little or no worldwide competition for a machine causing an inflated sales price as well? Only time will tell.


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## Spazbarista

Hmmmm.

Does the fact that Quickmill are only selling this new machine through BB tell you something not only about their confidence in it, but also about their investment in it??


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## DavidBondy

I'm not sure that I should wade in here but I'm getting a little disconcerted about this discussion thread.

It seems that both parties have a very entrenched position and will defend it come-what-may.

It also seems to me that the QM machine has been requested by BB in response to the fashion (!) for lever machines amongst the aficionados here in the UK.

If they, BB, perceive that they're losing sales because of this then it is a wise and perfectly sound business decision on their part.

But come on chaps. Don't lose perspective here. After all, it's only a bloody coffee machine!

There. I've said my piece.

David


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## CallumT

DavidBondy said:


> It also seems to me that the QM machine has been requested by BB in response to the fashion (!) for lever machines amongst the aficionados here in the UK.


Touché...

Although I just don't understand the price point at all, just looks like reiss' price less of the VAT, anyway who's buying one then folks.


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## 4085

Ha! I am trying hard not to turn this into a Londinium versus new kid on the block debate, despite the fact that it seems to be heading that way! I own an L1 and am very happy with it!

Expo, BB went to QM who they have an excellent relationship with and asked them after extensive research, to modify an existing machine. Many manufacturers would have said go take a leap. QM did not and after only 2 months fashioned a prototype for BB to assess. 4 weeks on from there the prototype is in the Uk and the first run of production machines is not far behind. BB were given exclusive rights for 6 months at which point they will either be offered another exclusie or QM will throw their weight behind it.

David, you are about spot on. The only lever BB stocked was the Strega which is not really a traditional lever machine (yes I like them and have owned one and feel qualified to comment!) so the Veloce is all about filling a slot on their shelf. They did not go out to undercut anyone. Whether the project is viable or not remains to be seen. Once the first review is complete, I guess we will know how good it is or is not. Until then, when people come up with comments or suggestions regarding a machine they have only sen pictures of and only a couple of people in the world have actually touched, then the verbal jousting will continue.

As an L1 owner, I do not feel even slightly threatened by this machine. The whole point is to introduce more people to the world of levers, and in that world there are not enough suppliers!


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## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


> Ha! I am trying hard not to turn this into a Londinium versus new kid on the block debate


Fat chance of that not happening. Hope the QM lever delivers the goods - be good to have more high quality levers out there. Competition is healthy.


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## CallumT

I'm not trying to make it a versus debate, my point was just the irony of the price point.

Thought I'd moved on by asking who's going to snap one up?


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## Mrboots2u

Agree with the sentiments of Mr Bondy post . So in the spirit of talking about the new machine, and it features ( plus I can't be arsed scrolling through the 4 pages again ) , do you know whether its a thermosyphon or a dipper group on this machine? If this has already been covered apologies .....

Plus as an aside having a choice in levers can't be a bad thing , it may open people up to the idea of having one , rather than dismissing looking at them due to there not being the variety and choice to weigh up like pump machines ...


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## coffeechap

Yeh lever debate, the Strega comparison referred to is is quite frankly tosh, it may have been liked but was in Jo way at all !!!! In the same league as the L1 however this new quickmill does have potential, it is the same group, which is one of the contributing factors to the success and quality of the L1, however many of the components are not up to the same spec as an l1 which invariably could be the price difference, I will get a much better view on this when the veloce hits my bench next week!!

As for what her this is about a comparison, of course it folks, I for one have been itching to see more (high quality) levers available that fit in the kitchen and this appears to be right up my street. Let's see what it is like first, a believe me I will be doing an inch by inch step and evaluation of the quickmill.


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## 4085

So, we are all friends again.....LOL........be a blinking group hug next!

Callum, if you have ever spoken to Rodney, you would know that he is an absolute gentleman and his only concern in life, is about making a healthy profit. If he can do this at £1650 then so be it. I think they are looking to have a lever to offer their client base, in other words punters go in to buy a Rocket and come away with a Veloce, rather than having a big media campaign to lure would be punters away from elsewhere.

I am buying the first one. This is not because I am sick of my L1. It is simply because I have been chatting with Rodney since day one on the specification of the machine, being a lever owner. I am buying the prototype when it becomes available, but that does not mean I will not say it is a crock of shite if it is. I would never try and sway anyone to buy something just because I did!

Boots, as far as I know it is a thermosyphon as well


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## TonyW

Callum - I am a potential buyer. I have been saving for a new machine and was seriously considering the LI but it's a big investment and nervous of buying direct without a good chance to play with one first. The key attractions of the veloce for me, would be the retail model, so a chance to try before I buy and the lower price point for a Bosco-based machine. But only if it lives up to its potential and the build quality is good. I would think twice if the chassis isn't solid enough to take that big group head and lever action, or if it turns out not to be a thermosyphon and I would prefer a plumbed version tbh. So I really want to see what CC and Dave have to say about it when they've been hands-on.

Just noticed another small potential point of difference - are those neon indicators where the L1 has LEDs now? Don't imagine that would make much difference in the cup though.


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## NickR

I am another potential buyer. For me the L1 is not perfect, for reasons given further back in this thread. If the QM Veloce is closer to my ideal then it will be my next machine.


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## coffeechap

So amusing when I see the term BOSCO based machine, the group is a generic group usd on any machines, it happens to be the best of the lever groups available though. Tony W there are a few forum members near you that have the L1 that would gladly let you have a play, if not if you are ever down my way you are welcome to come have a go (if you think your hard enough!)

It is always good to go and try something out before you get it, hopefully the review that I do will help people to see what this Lever is all about, as I said before any new lever is a good thing for us stick shift people.....


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## TonyW

Thanks for clarifying that CC, and for the offer. I guess it's like saying that my Mazda is Ferrari-based if they used the same Bosche side-light bulbs, yes?

I've exchanged a couple of PMs with some LI owners on the forum since that post, and had a kind offer to take a look at one in Sheffield. I'm really looking forward to that, together with your and Dave's reviews.


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## TonyW

The Veloce is now on listed on BellaBarista's website with a nice 360degree photo: http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-machines/lever-operated/bellabarista-veloce-by-quickmill.html

"Traditional lever coffee machine with PID to give the Veloce a modern feature. Superb Bosco lever group provides the perfect espresso pressure profile fitted with single spring for easier use and smoother pressure profile. Fitted with reservoir tank with vibration pump so no need to plumb in. Available Mid May."


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## Geordie Boy

coffeechap said:


> I will get a much better view on this when the veloce hits my bench next week!!


Have you got your hands on it yet


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## coffeechap

Sometime this week hopefully


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## TonyW

Following suggestions from this thread to find someone local with an LI, I'd like to record my thanks to Callum for letting me have a go with his LI today, for sharing his considerable expertise & experience so freely, and for being such a friendly & helpful host.

I'm still interested to see how the QM stacks up but, having experienced the LI properly and talked with Callum in depth, I've decided that the LI is the machine for me.

Many thanks, Callum.


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## The Systemic Kid

Really good to hear, Tony. No substitute for getting hands on experience prior to buying.


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## CallumT

Glad to be of service, spreading the spring lever love around. Hope upshot provided the beverage gold when you were there also.

Pleasure catching up with yourself Tony and your other half


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## coffeechap

Yeh most of us lever lovers like to spread the love


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## Xpenno

coffeechap said:


> Yeh most of us lever lovers like to spread the love


You sure do! And that love tastes so good.


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## Mrboots2u

Xpenno said:


> You sure do! And that love tastes so good.


err.............


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## coffeechap

Boots doesn't understand even though he has shared enough lever love of his own!


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## Xpenno

Mrboots2u said:


> err.............


That's no way to talk about Coffeechap's espresso!


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## Xpenno

That lovely thick crema...mmmm


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## Mrboots2u

coffeechap said:


> Boots doesn't understand even though he has shared enough lever love of his own!


That was our secret..........


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## Soll

Mrboots2u said:


> That was our secret..........


Where have I logged into ? It's like a set from a Carry on Movie


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## DavidBondy

Ooooooooh Matron!


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## sjenner

TonyW said:


> The Veloce is now on listed on BellaBarista's website with a nice 360degree photo: http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-machines/lever-operated/bellabarista-veloce-by-quickmill.html
> 
> "Traditional lever coffee machine with PID to give the Veloce a modern feature. Superb Bosco lever group provides the perfect espresso pressure profile fitted with single spring for easier use and smoother pressure profile. Fitted with reservoir tank with vibration pump so no need to plumb in. Available Mid May."


That's no "Bosco" lever Tony, they don't make levers.

In Londiniumland, that is blasphemy...


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## TonyW

Yes. I know, thanks. .

I should have made it clearer that was a straight quote from BB's Veloce page.

It would probably be a lot easier if those groupheads had their own branding.

Anyway, I hope my Londiniumland visa application won't get rejected for quoting. blasphemy.


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## The Systemic Kid

Funny how some myths get going and, more surprisingly, persist.


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## The Systemic Kid

TonyW said:


> Anyway, I hope my Londiniumland visa application won't get rejected for quoting. blasphemy.


Your penance will be to make excellent espresso and a promise to try some Londinium beans through your LI - that really will put a smile on your face. By the way, Reiss is very forgiving


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## TonyW

Sounds like a fair penance. I think I could suffer that. 

Honestly, I think it boils down to there being no easy way to talk about those specific groups without invoking the Bosco connection, and the moment you shorten "the group used by Bosco" to "Bosco group" you change the meaning and reinforce the myth.

If that grouphead had its own name or brand then people could talk about <the brand> used on the Bosco, Londinium and Veloce, or even just <the brand>. Easy. </the></the>

Or maybe one day we'll just call it the Londinium group. .


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## coffeechap

Or the best group you can buy!!!


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## coffeechap

How about ultigroup


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## TonyW

Can we have a competition?

Where's the branding consultants when you need one?

Now there's a set of words you don't hear often...


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## The Systemic Kid

coffeechap said:


> Or the best group you can buy!!!


Isn't that the Carling group??


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## The Systemic Kid

Groupissimo??


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## coffeechap

If carlsberg made groups


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## coffeechap

Gurupe........


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## DavidBondy

Or for a German made machine: Gruppenfuhrer!


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## robin taylor

Question - looks super but does it flex I wonder? Flex worries me with levers and e61s. If the whole lot flexes and the boiler etc moves with it not so bad. BUT, if the head be it e61 or lever flexes surely there must be some bending copper pipes between the head and the boiler leading to possible fracture and leakage. Maybe the answer to this would be high pressure flexy pipes between boiler and brewing head?

Robin.


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## DavecUK

robin taylor said:


> Question - looks super but does it flex I wonder? Flex worries me with levers and e61s. If the whole lot flexes and the boiler etc moves with it not so bad. BUT, if the head be it e61 or lever flexes surely there must be some bending copper pipes between the head and the boiler leading to possible fracture and leakage. Maybe the answer to this would be high pressure flexy pipes between boiler and brewing head?
> 
> Robin.


Damm...all those flexing E61 groups leaking all over the place....it has been a major problem over the years, especially with the Americans. I think E61 flexing has been one of the most overstated problems that has never caused a fault to the best of my knowledge. *Not talking about Levers here, just E61s*

It's funny how non problems with certain things worry people, some who probably happily drive a car without a spare wheel (just a puncture repair kit).....very odd world we live in.


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