# Orchestrale Nota, first thoughts



## 4085

Right, do not expect me to tell you how wonderful this is, or is not. I have had it since Friday and am finding my feet being back in the land of pumps. It is in my humble, quite a likeable machine. Looks nice to me. You can customise it by changing the end and back panels for white, black, glass or etched steel if you wish. You can buy white pf handles and I believe there are also ones with stainless steel handles. At the moment, mine is standard but that might change. It gets up quite quickly to temp considering it has a 3 litre boiler, in around the 8 to 9 minute mark. The refill for the reservoir is on the side making access quite easy. You can also plumb in by connecting the pipes up and pressing a rocker switch.

I do like the height from the drip tray to the spout. I can stand my tallest cups on scales and still have room left. They also supply a brushed steel stand that clips into the holes of the mesh so that you can pour into smaller cups. The rotary pump is smooth and fairly quiet compared to vibes anyway. The water and steam knobs are easy to use. It steams like a good 'un and hot water is plentiful.

The drip tray is large and really solid and you have to press a clip in to take it out. It is all set to be plumbed out but there are no instructions for this although they do supply the hose,

You get two really solid pf handles with single and twin spout, 2 baskets, a blind basket, a group head brush, 3 brass olives (don't ask me!), and steel pipe to plumb in and plastic pipe to plumb out.

I have not noticed the water hissing if I do not vent it. Although it is an HX it is described as being thermosyphonic, but your guess is as good as mine. I will try and do a heath robinson test on water temp soon.

Anyway, I am thoroughly enjoying it and I hope before long, someone else has the courage to shell out for one. As always, if anyone is local and wants to come and play, you are welcome


----------



## coffeechap

Is this the most expensive hx you can buy?


----------



## 4085

is that you, as in me, or you as in anyone?


----------



## coffeechap

Anyone, seems quite pricey for an hx


----------



## 4085

you pay for quality.....


----------



## 4085

and what difference does it make being an hx? what cannot it do that the beloved dual boiler can?


----------



## coffeechap

It cannot have two boilers!


----------



## coffeechap

You will be flushing that more than your toillet


----------



## coffeechap

Oh what it can't do is easily adjust the temp at the group


----------



## 4085

coffeechap said:


> Oh what it can't do is easily adjust the temp at the group


why would I want to do that? I had a pid for 4 years on an Exposer and never altered it once. A dual boiler does not let you change the temp at the group any easier without a pid, and that assuming of course that the water does overheat. The Gaggia TS did not need flushes and I have not felt the need to on this yet but whatever, it will be plumbed in soon so makes no difference


----------



## Beanosaurus

Pimp it.


----------



## 4085

Thats great Beanie.....some of those Aussie woodturners do really good stuff and whilst nt my favourite wood, they are stunning! many thanks


----------



## Dylan

I guess if we are talking about purely your own usage, and not the potential usage of others, you could state that a HX does nothing differently to a DB as you dont use it in a different way.

It's a little like saying what can a Vesuvius do that my HX/DB cant do, because I have had a Vesuvius for a year and never modified a pressure profile.

But for many/most other people that isn't the case, and they use this feature, and in virtually any discussion of DB vs HX the potential advantage of changing the temp of the extraction is mentioned.

Whether this feature is worth the £5-600 premium most DB's command is another matter, but then the same can be said for the Nota.


----------



## 4085

Dylan said:


> I guess if we are talking about purely your own usage, and not the potential usage of others, you could state that a HX does nothing differently to a DB as you dont use it in a different way.
> 
> It's a little like saying what can a Vesuvius do that my HX/DB cant do, because I have had a Vesuvius for a year and never modified a pressure profile.
> 
> But for many/most other people that isn't the case, and they use this feature, and in virtually any discussion of DB vs HX the potential advantage of changing the temp of the extraction is mentioned.
> 
> Whether this feature is worth the £5-600 premium most DB's command is another matter, but then the same can be said for the Nota.


Hi Dylan, all fair points. I think this thread really was leg pulling. I know the Nota is a lot more expensive than other HX machines and matching respected DB's, so what is it all about.

You know when you get into a car and shut the door. That tells you straight away the build quality. this is the same. The thing is made to last using industrial strength metals. All the important bits are of commercial grade and quite simply, these cost a lot more. There is a fuse of some sort which will blow before the current reaches any of the electrical parts, all this takes money. Years after your average non commercially built machine is dad, or has had a large part of its initial cost spent on replacement parts, I hope this will be sailing on into the sunset.

When I said what can a DB do, I did mean in my own environment, PID aside, what is the difference. The Nota does not need to vent water a la cooling shot. It can steam and make a shot as many times as you want. If it is going into a commercial environment where it might have to pull a lot of shots on the bat, you can have a vibe pump fitted to ensure the shot does not stop whilst the water refills. It is a cleverly thought out machine and I hope that one will at least make it to the party if people are looking to spend £1800.

It is a lot of money and only time will tell if it has been a good purchase or a bad 'un!


----------



## Mrboots2u

Mr Kidd , without putting the Eric's on it , how did you get to the conclusion that it was a stable temp all the time ?


----------



## 4085

Mrboots2u said:


> Mr Kidd , without putting the Eric's on it , how did you get to the conclusion that it was a stable temp all the time ?


Because it has a thermosyphon exactly the same as the L1. In addition, I have tested it in a heath robinson way by checking the water temp after standing idle and it is never like the older/cheaper HX models i.e. too hot

I always pull about 15 mL to freshen things up but I do that with all machines bootsie


----------



## Mrboots2u

Just asking enquiring questions here

Thermosyphon is the same as the L1

Group weight weight and how it acts as a heat sink between the two machines is different surely ?

Just wondering out aloud , how it works ( or if it really does )


----------



## Dylan

I dont think a surge protection fuse can realistically be defined as something that 'costs money', it is, after all, something that is a feature in every UK plug, and if you want to buy a surge protector in addition it would cost about a fiver.

Thicker steel and commercial components obviously all do cost more, not that this is the only machine with these qualities. A thermosyphon that eliminates the flush can be found on many HX machines, including 'entry level' Fracino models.

The sum of its parts may well be what adds value for you, as you say a car with the exact same technical spec from VW or from Mercedes would cost a very different amount of money. Value does not just come from the spec list.


----------



## 4085

Mrboots2u said:


> Just asking enquiring questions here
> 
> Thermosyphon is the same as the L1
> 
> Group weight weight and how it acts as a heat sink between the two machines is different surely ?
> 
> Just wondering out aloud , how it works ( or if it really does )


Come and try it boots. The Nota weighs 34.8 kilos so I hope it is full of something and not just ballast weights! I have no idea as to how the 2 machines differ internally. I am merely stating that the Nota HX has a thermosyphon look which continually runs water from and to the group, which is similar to the L1 but accept it is bound to work in a totally different way


----------



## 4085

Dylan said:


> I dont think a surge protection fuse can realistically be defined as something that 'costs money', it is, after all, something that is a feature in every UK plug, and if you want to buy a surge protector in addition it would cost about a fiver.
> 
> Thicker steel and commercial components obviously all do cost more, not that this is the only machine with these qualities. A thermosyphon that eliminates the flush can be found on many HX machines, including 'entry level' Fracino models.
> 
> The sum of its parts may well be what adds value for you, as you say a car with the exact same technical spec from VW or from Mercedes would cost a very different amount of money. Value does not just come from the spec list.


Dylan, you seem to be trying to put me on the defensive again. I bought this machine because I wanted to. I am sorry if you seem to think it poor value and unjustifiably expensive compared to others. if you do, then thats your problem.

If surge protectors cost less than £5, then why do not all manufacturers fit the. How many people have surge protectors fitted to their machines and are you seriously suggesting that people should not bother and just rely upon the good old 13 amp fuse to protect their thousands of pounds of kit?

I did not say thermosyphons were not found on other HX machines including entry level Fracinos as I have never gone down to that level.

Value may not come from the spec list but there is a reason why this machine is the price it is and a Giotto is the price that is, and I know which one I would rather have


----------



## Jumbo Ratty

I think it looks stunning and would grace my kitchen nicely, and being able to change the end panels appeals to me.

Very stylish


----------



## jlarkin

dfk - how are you finding it after a bit of time bedding in? Still weighing input and output or any other changes (I mean maybe things you didn't or did expect) you've noticed between using other machines and the nota?


----------



## 4085

jlarkin said:


> dfk - how are you finding it after a bit of time bedding in? Still weighing input and output or any other changes (I mean maybe things you didn't or did expect) you've noticed between using other machines and the nota?


my routine has changed. I weigh in because I have started using an HG One Zen barrel so it is just as easy to build a routine. The E10 is pretty good on accuracy of dose with a bit of weight on the beans. I accept that with a pump, it is impossible to weigh out accurately unless you use scales, so I do. I find it so much easier to get decent repeatability of shot quality. I have not mastered pre-infusion yet since I plumbed her in but I will do no doubt at some point.

I would say I am getting a consistently better shot than with the lever but I suspect that is down to my shortcomings and not the gear. I enjoy using it and cannot see a reason to change it. It makes me wonder whether I should not have given the GS3 a longer stay in my house but thats life.

To sum up, it is easy to use. I think it is quite pretty and I am going to change the end panels for white glass ones with a matching pf handle. I appreciate I am never going to convert people over to spending 31800 on what they consider to be just an HX but thats life.

If anyone wants a go, then you know roughly where I am.

and, thanks for your comments jumbo.....I agree with you whilst others will not!


----------



## Mrboots2u

@dfk41 , ah I am time poor and money poor, ( Im just poor, ) so a trip is unlikely...Glad your enjoying your machine . I don't know enough about the inner workings of a thermosyphon to accurately understand , if and why , it needs a flush or not . Need the likes of @coffeechap and @DavecUK for that ....

If you can convert anyone to spend £31800 on a coffee machine , then you are a better salesman than i thought you were...


----------



## froggystyle

dfk41 said:


> I enjoy using it and cannot see a reason to change it.


This made me chuckle!


----------



## Jumbo Ratty

dfk41 said:


> I appreciate I am never going to convert people over to spending 31800 on what they consider to be just an HX but thats life.
> 
> !





Mrboots2u said:


> If you can convert anyone to spend £31800 on a coffee machine , then you are a better salesman than i thought you were...


Why is the figure of £31800 being bandied about ?

I thought it cost £1,800

I realise DFK didnt hit the shift button


----------



## 4085

Mrboots2u said:


> @dfk41 ,
> 
> If you can convert anyone to spend £31800 on a coffee machine , then you are a better salesman than i thought you were...


I would quite agree with you, but if I remember correctly, you paid more than that for yours, and there are now 50 L1 owners to name but a few who have machines of that value, then add it Duetto and Verona...the list is endless.

And, for the record, I hope no one else buys one and I stay unique! truth is though, the machine is not really AIMED at the domestic user but the hairdresser, small restaurant


----------



## Mrboots2u

Jumbo Ratty said:


> Why is the figure of £31800 being bandied about ?
> 
> I thought it cost £1,800


£ = 3 without the shift key


----------



## jlarkin

Glad you're enjoying it dfk!

I like the look of it as well, don't know if I could justify the price yet, but I might have a sniff when you move it on ;-).

I'd like to get a machine with the clear panels at some point (I know there are a few that I've seen).


----------



## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> I would quite agree with you, but if I remember correctly, you paid more than that for yours, and there are now 50 L1 owners to name but a few who have machines of that value, then add it Duetto and Verona...the list is endless.
> 
> And, for the record, I hope no one else buys one and I stay unique! truth is though, the machine is not really AIMED at the domestic user but the hairdresser, small restaurant


I didn't pay thirty one thousand did i ....was a joke at your typo , not the actual retail price


----------



## 4085

Mrboots2u said:


> I didn't pay thirty one thousand did i ....was a joke at your typo , not the actual retail price


You are still so easy to wind up Martin......was it a typo?


----------



## Dylan

dfk41 said:


> Dylan, you seem to be trying to put me on the defensive again. I bought this machine because I wanted to. I am sorry if you seem to think it poor value and unjustifiably expensive compared to others. if you do, then thats your problem.
> 
> If surge protectors cost less than £5, then why do not all manufacturers fit the. How many people have surge protectors fitted to their machines and are you seriously suggesting that people should not bother and just rely upon the good old 13 amp fuse to protect their thousands of pounds of kit?
> 
> I did not say thermosyphons were not found on other HX machines including entry level Fracinos as I have never gone down to that level.
> 
> Value may not come from the spec list but there is a reason why this machine is the price it is and a Giotto is the price that is, and I know which one I would rather have


I am in no way trying to put you on the defensive, I dont think this machine represents value for money (certainly from a home user standpoint, anyhow), but then I dont think a Rocket does, nor a Mercedes, things dont always have to represent value for money for them to be desirable.

Many electronics have a fuse that will blow before the components are damaged, very few of these electronics tout this as a 'feature'. For all you or I know the Gicar or similar in any other machine may well have this feature. I can't state it as fact, but its perfectly possible, even likely.

There is a reason everything is the price it is, I simply wouldn't attribute as much of the Notas price to the value of its parts.


----------



## 4085

Dylan said:


> I am in no way trying to put you on the defensive, I dont think this machine represents value for money (certainly from a home user standpoint, anyhow), but then I dont think a Rocket does, nor a Mercedes, things dont always have to represent value for money for them to be desirable.
> 
> Many electronics have a fuse that will blow before the components are damaged, very few of these electronics tout this as a 'feature'. For all you or I know the Gicar or similar in any other machine may well have this feature. I can't state it as fact, but its perfectly possible, even likely.
> 
> There is a reason everything is the price it is, I simply wouldn't attribute as much of the Notas price to the value of its parts.


Each to his own Dylan. Have you reacted in the same way to other high value machines? Perhaps you have theory why a gS3 is 5k plus as well! The reason I mentioned the fuse thing, was that the chap on youtube who did a comparison of the Nota v the Giotto did make a feature of it saying what a good idea it was. You do not agree, no problem. This is never going to be a high sales machine and I am glad, because I hate having the same kit as the next person, and the one after that etc etc


----------



## Dylan

dfk41 said:


> Each to his own Dylan. Have you reacted in the same way to other high value machines? Perhaps you have theory why a gS3 is 5k plus as well! The reason I mentioned the fuse thing, was that the chap on youtube who did a comparison of the Nota v the Giotto did make a feature of it saying what a good idea it was. You do not agree, no problem. This is never going to be a high sales machine and I am glad, because I hate having the same kit as the next person, and the one after that etc etc


I singled out a Rocket above, as its more in the class of machine that are the same feature-for-feature as most others on the market. I dont think a GS3 represents value for money either, btw, but then this is personal opinion were expressing here. For some spending north of 2k on a grinder is value to them if it allows them to achieve a flavor they haven't tasted before.

I realise the fuse thing came from that video, and when he mentioned it I thought it was a strange thing to single out as something associated with a high end machine, when it is such a simple thing.


----------



## jeebsy

ECM make super expensive HXs too


----------



## dancing james

i currently have a Silvia (modded with a PID) and Rocky combo. They are over ten years old and it feels like time for an upgrade. You have owned the Nota for a few months now, how are you getting on with it? It has been strongly recommended to me by a friend but I'd like to find out how someone who owns one is getting on with it? Also what grinder are you using - am thinking of getting the Eureka 65.


----------



## 4085

@dancing james Hi and thanks for the question, that I will try and answer. Firstly, everyone thinks I am in Bella Baristas pocket because I promote them and I also get a discount on purchases. The two are not connected and if I buy something from them and it is not good, I will say so. I have been running lever machines for the past couple of years, and last summer, had the desire to revisit pump machines. In a shortspace of time, I bought and tried a GS3 which I simply did not appreciate, then I bought a Vesuvius which is a fantastic machine, but with fully controllable pressure profiling means it is great fun to play with and experiment, or you could say a total pain on the ass.

This summer, my son moved out and I spent a lot of time looking around, as I wanted to 'lend' him my lever machine and by a new pump. I have an instant dislike to anything in life that other people like....odd I know, but that put me off Rockets, Veronas and the like. I came across the Nota and THEN found out that BB were listed as UK sellers. I researched as much as I could and particularly liked the youtube clip






What this hammered home, was the build quality and the fact that throughout, they have used industry standard commercial quality components. I particularly liked little features like a fuse before the board so in the event of a power surge, you replaced a fuse not a board. This of course was rubbished by some on here. I agree, it is not a big thing, but if that is the case, why does everyone not do it? liked the interchangeable sides. I liked its looks. I liked the fact that you cans witch between plumbed in and tanked in 5 seconds. Then thing I disliked about the Nota, and I have spoken at length with them on this is the fact the well constructed drip tray comes fitted standard with the option to plumb the waste out, and I did. The problem is that the fitting they supply fits up the side of the drip tray wall and not through the bottom which means there is always an amount of residue. Still, if you do not plumb out then this is not a problem.

The rotary pump is pretty quiet. Although it is classed as an HX design, there is no need to pull a cooling shot. The system has a thermosyphon loop which means hot water is constantly cycled between the group and the boiler, not sitting in the group heating up.

All in all, I am extremely happy with mine and would not hesitate in buying another. No one on the forum is interested in the machine and no one else owns one, and that suits me in a funny sort of way.

I would suggest you buy as decent a grinder as you can stretch to. I have had the 65E and it iso, but you can do a lot better. It has a bigger brother, the 75E which is much the same, but with bigger burrs. Ceado is another. If you do not mind a doser model, then the thread Eric has for the K10 PB is an absolute bargain. What I am trying to say, is that the grinder is more important than the coffee machine, as the machine makes coffee from whatever you put into it. The Nota is a very capable machine and will make the most from which ever grinder you pair it to.

cheers

PS I am currently using a Eureka Mythos that I can certainly recommend. I like big grinders and if I changed theMythos, it would be for either a Compak E8 or Ceado E92s


----------



## dancing james

Have sent Mark @BB an email

I hope to get the Nota, sounds pretty perfect to me.


----------



## 7493

Dave, don't suppose for a moment that some of us are not interested in the Nota! I've been following your progress with interest. It looks like an excellent HX machine. I'm still wondering whether my next machine should be a lever, a better HX or a dual boiler pump. I want to upgrade my grinder first though.


----------



## dancing james

Yours and other's comments sealed the deal for me to buy Eric's K10.

Did you get the cold touch wands?


----------



## 4085

No, I did not bother as they come with a grip. I normally find I do not need to adjust the angle, or can do it using the jug. The cool wand just has a silicone tube running through it, which results in less steaming power. That said, it might be a good thing! I use the standard 4 hole tip which once you have tamed it, is fine.

The K10 PB is a really good grinder. For a conical it has very little retention, has had the extra wide chute fitted and also the mod to the fins in the doser so that the sweep does not miss grinds.

The taste profile gives is really good. What is your preference on beans. Do you like lighter or darker roasts? I bought a black borsicilate side panel for the right side, and a see through glass panel for the left, along with a stainless steel pf handle. You will enjoy your machine, and if I can help, please use ask


----------



## dancing james

Aah

we were contemplating the clear side panels. How much were they? Hope you don't mind the question

how clean does thermocline stay internally, or are you having to clean and polish it to maintain its appearance?

cool touch wands don't sound like an upgrade!

we tend to prefer lighter roasts


----------



## 4085

I am not sure what the actual cost of the extras was as I had quite a large credit note

And just paid the difference but Marco will sort you out!

I have only had the glass panel on a month or so but I would not expect any

Problems as the machine although new to he UK has been out for some time


----------



## dancing james

Are you using the portafilter it comes with, is there a naked one that'd work well with it?


----------



## dancing james

Can you post a picture of the glass panel?


----------



## 4085

It comes with really nice quality single and double spout handles, a single, a double and a blind basket. Despite popular belief amongst some, a naked pf is only intended to allow you to check your shot and not to be used for every shot. In a commercial environment a barista can check the accuracy of shot preparation quickly by pulling a shot on a naked. Nowadays though, many people seem to think of this as the goto accessory......I am not one of those! Marco or anyone at BB will sort one out for you. I am sure Orchestral do one from the factory.


----------



## dancing james

Stunning

I think we'll want clear panels


----------



## Mrboots2u

A naked pf can add a nice bit of theatre to a shot ( and crema ) as well as give a visual queue to how the extraction is going. Worth having and Defo worst using when dialling in your new gear .


----------



## hotmetal

Though David is right about the naked PF being a tool for the occasional check that distribution is ok, I agree with Boots about the 'theatre' of it. Another upside is that it creates more space for your cup/scales. Also ease of cleaning, and you can often balance a naked PF on a set of scales whereas spouted PFs usually need you to have some kind of cradle (depending on scales of course). The downside is that you can little spots of coffee on your machine and cup. Or if you get a real 'spritzer', a wayward jet which is even messier. I find that overall I use the naked a lot, although recently I've reverted to the 2-spout so I can split the shot for a small flat white and an espresso so I can get to know the coffee in both 'modes'.


----------



## 4085

hotmetal said:


> Though David is right about the naked PF being a tool for the occasional check that distribution is ok, I agree with Boots about the 'theatre' of it. Another upside is that it creates more space for your cup/scales. Also ease of cleaning, and you can often balance a naked PF on a set of scales whereas spouted PFs usually need you to have some kind of cradle (depending on scales of course). The downside is that you can little spots of coffee on your machine and cup. Or if you get a real 'spritzer', a wayward jet which is even messier. I find that overall I use the naked a lot, although recently I've reverted to the 2-spout so I can split the shot for a small flat white and an espresso so I can get to know the coffee in both 'modes'.


The Nota has a very large gap by design, so that you can fit a tall mug under. It also comes with a 'step' you can use for espresso cups, such is the height!

The reason I have a black panel on the right is because the water tank sits down the right side as opposed to across the back. Whilst this makes for easier filling, it means all you will see is the tank itself. I will add a photo to show you!


----------



## dancing james

I have only recently invested in a naked PF for Silvia and it has been very instructive. My distribution was pretty terrible but in a day it was corrected and i am no longer showering my kitchen with a fine coffee mist. the Nota comes with 1 single and 1 double spouted PF. My plan would be to use the double spout for splitting a shot, but naked the rest of the time to keep my distribution honest.


----------



## hotmetal

I like the fact that the Nota gives you plenty of room under the group head. I meant to say I thought it looked tall enough from the pics but good to have it confirmed. Even comes with a naughty step for demitasses - cool!


----------



## Montana

I love the look of this machine but wonder how easy to use compared to a dual boiler? I still can't make my mind up which machine to upgrade to. I was set on a lever but I keep looking at this machine lately.


----------



## h1udd

Montana said:


> I love the look of this machine but wonder how easy to use compared to a dual boiler?


assuming the thermosyphon loop works as advertised then its the same level of ease as a DB ...... if you still need a cooling flush just to get rid of overly hot water in the loop, then you just purge a couple of shots worth of water before using.


----------



## Mrboots2u

How about setting the extraction to a specific temp tho

It Simply doesn't have the same functionality that a pidded dual boiler does.

This functionality of course may or may be important to the end user.


----------



## h1udd

you change the pstat to increase or decrease pressure in the boiler that will affect the brew temp.

but yes, where you are coming from, dual boilers have more functionality for sure ..... but ease of use ? ... they are the same when it comes to ease of use ... once set up, its repeatable without faff


----------



## 4085

h1udd said:


> assuming the thermosyphon loop works as advertised then its the same level of ease as a DB ...... if you still need a cooling flush just to get rid of overly hot water in the loop, then you just purge a couple of shots worth of water before using.


Ok, I own one and I own a lever. I am not going to compare the two because they are two completely different beasts. I enjoy them both. I find the Nota easier to use. How and why? Well, I am lazy. I stick to a good shot preparation, but I am not fastidious. By that, I mean I do not care if there is 15.4 gms or 16 gms in the basket, as long as the consistency is good and the rest of the shot preparation followed. Most of the time I do not weigh out either, as I am happy to accept a 'ballpark' shot. I find theNota more forgiving taking into consideration my slap hazard approach.

I suppose a lot of the is down to the fact that with a pump machine the pressure profile is constant whereas on a lever it is reducing. Both machines make good coffee but most of that is down to you as an individual and your ability rather than a 'magic' machine.

The thermosyphon on the Nota works as it should that means I do not have to pull cooling shots. I always draw about 15 mms out of any machine I use, just as habit. Because no cooling flush is needed, then that nullifies the main difference between an HX and DB. The Nota has a 3 litre boiler. I make americans but use the water from the group as it is the right temp, rather than use water from the water tap. I have noticed that if I take about a mugs worth of water through the water arm it causes the pressure towrope, but rapidly gets back to working pressure in about 25seconds, but, unless you are making tea (!) then thats not an issue.


----------



## froggystyle

I do like that handle!

Bling...


----------



## h1udd

dfk41 said:


> I do not have to pull cooling shots. I always draw about 15 mms out of any machine I use, just as habit.


See, when I first read the blurb on the Nota I was envious as an owner of a regular HX machine, not having to pull a cooling flush sounded great ..... but there is no better way of pre-heating your cup than to dump a shot of water into it ..... so even if I did have a thermosyphon loop in mine, I reckon I would still pull a shot of water into the cup to heat it ....... I love hot cup me !


----------



## 4085

The Nota has a cup warming tray so no worries there. I just put some teflon like stuff down to stop catching. As the water tank runs down the right side as opposed to the back there is plenty of room.

Froggy, the steel handle is one of the nicest I have used. It iso tactile and feels lovely in the hand. The standard ones are fine but these really are a nice upgrade


----------



## coffeechap

Montana said:


> I love the look of this machine but wonder how easy to use compared to a dual boiler? I still can't make my mind up which machine to upgrade to. I was set on a lever but I keep looking at this machine lately.


Ignore these pump obsessed fools, come over to the dark side, a lever is so much more pleasing to use and in my experience GS3 vs Londinium1 the Londinium wins in the cup, not sure how the nota fairs as haven't had one, but cannot imagine it pulls a better shots than the saturated group in the gs3!


----------



## Mrboots2u

h1udd said:


> you change the pstat to increase or decrease pressure in the boiler that will affect the brew temp.
> 
> but yes, where you are coming from, dual boilers have more functionality for sure ..... but ease of use ? ... they are the same when it comes to ease of use ... once set up, its repeatable without faff


How would you set a temp to 92 degrees then ? Pid

Pstat guess ?

Again it may not be important to the end user - but it's not the same functionality and that's the Inportant bit to recognise


----------



## 4085

coffeechap said:


> Ignore these pump obsessed fools, come over to the dark side, a lever is so much more pleasing to use and in my experience GS3 vs Londinium1 the Londinium wins in the cup, not sure how the nota fairs as haven't had one, but cannot imagine it pulls a better shots than the saturated group in the gs3!


Maybe and maybe not, but at three times the price, lets hope the GS3 does win!


----------



## Dylan

Mrboots2u said:


> How would you set a temp to 92 degrees then ? Pid
> 
> Pstat guess ?


The brew temp isn't the same as the boiler temp with a HX, I remember seeing charts that showed a relationship, but for this reason a PID would show you the temp of the boiler but not the temp of the brew water.

I saw one guy who PID'd his VBM so that he could turn the boiler right down an get a stable shot temp without a flush when he didn't have company (so didn't need wuick recovery or lots of steam power).


----------



## 4085

Mrboots2u said:


> How would you set a temp to 92 degrees then ? Pid
> 
> Pstat guess ?


That kind of says that if you do not have a db or at least a pid, then you are missing out......which is simply not true. If it were, then the next stage would be if you do not have a pid, and pressure profiling then you are missing out..........


----------



## Dylan

dfk41 said:


> That kind of says that if you do not have a db or at least a pid, then you are missing out......which is simply not true. If it were, then the next stage would be if you do not have a pid, and pressure profiling then you are missing out..........


It is true

If you dont have a DB with PID you are missing out... missing out on experimenting with temp controlled brews

If you dont have pressure profiling you are missing out... on pressure profiling your brews.


----------



## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> That kind of says that if you do not have a db or at least a pid, then you are missing out......which is simply not true. If it were, then the next stage would be if you do not have a pid, and pressure profiling then you are missing out..........


That's not what I'm saying- I'm saying the two things operate differently and have different functionality ( not the same )

It's up to the end user to decide if these things are important or not or useful .

But they don't offer the same functionality. They don't mange - measure temp adjustability in the same.

way


----------



## 4085

Dylan said:


> It is true
> 
> If you dont have a DB with PID you are missing out... missing out on experimenting with temp controlled brews
> 
> If you dont have pressure profiling you are missing out... on pressure profiling your brews.


Having owned all of the above, I would disagree 100%. Personally, I can think of nothing more mind numbingly boring than adjusting a shot by 0.5 of a degree or adjusting the profile by an ants knacker then recording the results! If I did not record the result then I would have forgotten it before I pulled the next one. Each to his own eh Dylan


----------



## coffeechap

dfk41 said:


> Maybe and maybe not, but at three times the price, lets hope the GS3 does win!


Agreed, but l1 is not 3 times the price


----------



## coffeechap

The question is Montana, what do you want to be able to do?


----------



## jeebsy

it would be interesting to see how many people on here with PIDs piss about with the temperature reguarly. I haven't changed mine for about a year.


----------



## froggystyle

Changed mine once since buying it...


----------



## 4085

coffeechap said:


> Agreed, but l1 is not 3 times the price


But it aint got saturated head now has it! And you cannot compare the two machines as stated.......we all know about levers but how many lever owners on here are actually getting anything like 100% from them......but that is a separate argument for another day


----------



## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


> How would you set a temp to 92 degrees then ? Pid
> 
> Pstat guess ?
> 
> Again it may not be important to the end user - but it's not the same functionality and that's the Inportant bit to recognise


Tune by taste **GASP***


----------



## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> it would be interesting to see how many people on here with PIDs piss about with the temperature reguarly. I haven't changed mine for about a year.


Agree - but you can if you want . That's was the point. hx and db don't offer the same end user functionality . Whether it's useful or people can tell the " difference " or it's dull Is up to the purchaser .


----------



## h1udd

Mrboots2u said:


> That's was the point. hx and db don't offer the same end user functionality


it was a very good point .... but it wasn't his question, which came down to ease of use .... I dont have the functionality of programming a PID or pressure profiling ... so in some respects my HX is easier to use as I dont have to spend ages trying to figure out if this bag of Yirgacheffe is better at 92 or 92.7 deg ... especially when I cant control the ambient temperature of my house that easily to match it.

yes a dual boiler has more functionality .... its got more parts ..... personally a 2 group would make life easier for me before a PID would


----------



## Dylan

dfk41 said:


> Having owned all of the above, I would disagree 100%. Personally, I can think of nothing more mind numbingly boring than adjusting a shot by 0.5 of a degree or adjusting the profile by an ants knacker then recording the results! If I did not record the result then I would have forgotten it before I pulled the next one. Each to his own eh Dylan


Each to their own indeed. If you only define things your are 'missing out' on as things you desire to have, and you dont desire either of those things, then you are not missing out, but as a general statement there are things to miss out on


----------



## jeebsy

You can always adjust your pstat though, it's just more of a finger in the air adjustment


----------



## coffeechap

dfk41 said:


> But it aint got saturated head now has it! And you cannot compare the two machines as stated.......we all know about levers but how many lever owners on here are actually getting anything like 100% from them......but that is a separate argument for another day


You absolutely can compare the standard of the shot you get from any machines. You guys are comparing he with dual boiler, all machines have different functionality. All I know is that on pure espresso the shot I can get from a l1 compared to the shot I get from the gs3 is better. That could be down to my preference or the declining pressure and temp profile of the lever. My gs3 has pressure profiling capabilities as well. However all other things aside the gs3 on functionality is better


----------



## jeebsy

Dylan said:


> Each to their own indeed. If you only define things your are 'missing out' on as things you desire to have, and you dont desire either of those things, then you are not missing out, but as a general statement there are things to miss out on


http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/is-happiness-having-what-you-want-wanting-what-you-have-or-both.html


----------



## dancing james

My Silvia has the auber PID. All it really tells me is that the temperature varies by 20degrees while a shot is poured! I have a feeling that many home use machines have a boiler that is too small to give a stable temperature, cram in two boilers into the same footprint and they are going to be even smaller and more variable. This is why the large boiler HX of the Nota really appeals to me.


----------



## jeebsy

dancing james said:


> My Silvia has the auber PID. All it really tells me is that the temperature varies by 20degrees while a shot is poured! I have a feeling that many home use machines have a boiler that is too small to give a stable temperature, cram in two boilers into the same footprint and they are going to be even smaller and more variable. This is why the large boiler HX of the Nota really appeals to me.


But it gives you a consistent starting point


----------



## 4085

jeebsy said:


> But it gives you a consistent starting point


so does switching it off.......apologies for my flippancy


----------



## dancing james

but depending on the ambient temperature and pressure the temperature drop can be between 15-25 degrees. the pid stabilises the temperature much better while the machine is idling, but can't do anything significant while shots are pouring.

@dfk41 - how much does the pressure vary on the Nota during an extraction?


----------



## 4085

dancing james said:


> but depending on the ambient temperature and pressure the temperature drop can be between 15-25 degrees. the pid stabilises the temperature much better while the machine is idling, but can't do anything significant while shots are pouring.
> 
> @dfk41 - how much does the pressure vary on the Nota during an extraction?


It sits rock solid.....there are 2 gauges. The one on the left cycles between about 0.85 and 1.2 as the pressure drops but the one on the right sits at zero (mine sits at about 2 bar as I am plumbed direct) and as soon as you switch the pump on, goes up to something like 9 bar (its switched off now so I cant check) and maintains that, quietly!

You will love the K10 PB. Yours has all the mods done to it. You will soon learn how long to operate the grinder for your desired dose......there are not many grinders that perform better James!


----------



## Montana

coffeechap said:


> The question is Montana, what do you want to be able to do?


Get my shots good enough to drink without adding water or milk. The better I'm getting the less I'm adding to enjoy them. Also learn to steam milk for the odd flat white. Levers intrest me the most and that's probably going to sway my decision but it's not to say other machines can't produce great shots.


----------



## jeebsy

dfk41 said:


> so does switching it off.......apologies for my flippancy


You won't get much coffee out an off machine though


----------



## dancing james

Cold brew?


----------



## Yes Row

Never changed the PID on my machine once in the year I had it.

To many variables in coffee making to worry about , without lowering the temp 1 degree. Ymmv


----------



## coffeechap

Montana said:


> but it's not to say other machines can't produce great shots.


Totally agree, most machines are capable in the right hands, some are just better than others


----------



## longvi1991

*Vẻ đẹp trên phiên bản đồng hồ Adriatica A3427.2163QZ mang đến bằng một thiết kế sang trọng và điểm tô thêm vào đó là những sự lấp lánh từ những viên đá lấp lánh đi kèm với đó là bộ vỏ được thiết kế với tông màu vàng sang trọng đi cùng với đó là những cây kim chỉ giờ được trau chuốt một cách kỹ lưỡng và tỉ mĩ trên từng đường nét thiết kế.*

*Sự Kiêu Sa Đến Từ Thụy Sỹ Trên Mẫu Đồng Hồ Adriatica A3427.2163QZ*

Phiên bản đồng hồ Adriatica A3427.2163QZ được trau chuốt một cách kỹ lưỡng và tỉ mỉ mang đến một sự sáng bóng và sắc nét với những đường nét lịch lãm và cá tính nổi bật đầy sang trọng dành riêng cho phái đẹp và giúp họ nổi bật trước đám đông một cách tuyệt vời và hoàn hảo nhất sẽ là một người bạn lý tưởng dành cho bạn đến bất kỳ đâu. Xem thêm phong cách Hàn Quốc: *
*


----------



## risky

dancing james said:


> My Silvia has the auber PID. All it really tells me is that the temperature varies by 20degrees while a shot is poured! I have a feeling that many home use machines have a boiler that is too small to give a stable temperature, cram in two boilers into the same footprint and they are going to be even smaller and more variable. This is why the large boiler HX of the Nota really appeals to me.


I can't help but think there must be machines considerably cheaper than the Nota that will offer you the temperature stability you are after if that is your primary concern.


----------



## 4085

risky said:


> I can't help but think there must be machines considerably cheaper than the Nota that will offer you the temperature stability you are after if that is your primary concern.


I think that aesthetics play a large part and the rationale is quite simply, that if the Nota had not been temperature stable, it would not have been an option. Since the OP likes the looks, and coming form being a Silvia owner of many years, then after aesthetics, the next most important things to him is stability. You also have to remember, that these things seem bomb proof. really well put together with recognised industry commercial grade parts and since the Silvia has served his needs for 10 years, this will serve for longer!


----------



## dancing james

Stability is one concern, along with consistency, build quality, reliability, aesthetics (my other half was never too keen on Silvia's boxiness). It seems that people often argue for a double boiler because of temperature control, though very few actually use it. To be able to make consistent good coffee seems to me to be about having a consistency and reducing the variables - grind size, distribution, tamping, temperature/pressure etc. From there small changes can be made to one parameter at a time.


----------



## Mrboots2u

@dancing james - do you primarily use one coffee or skip around a lot ?


----------



## Mrboots2u

If your happy with the price v functionally v looks of the machine , then buy it .

People in general opted for other hx machine as it cost them less than a db. They then , in general , upgraded as they wanted more temp control and stability and rid of flushing .

Seems form user experience reported there the notta doesn't need a hx flush and temp changing isn't a big thing for you as a function

Given your grinder and a bit of skill it will make great coffee .


----------



## coffeechap

dfk41 said:


> with recognised industry commercial grade parts and since the Silvia has served his needs for 10 years, this will serve for longer!


most of the prosumer hx machine have industry grade components, this is nothing new. the machine will only last as long as the care taken maintaining it. I have a 50 yer old la pavoni that still works like it should, but it has been maintained and is simple to work on.


----------



## 4085

coffeechap said:


> most of the prosumer hx machine have industry grade components, this is nothing new. .


name some HX machines aimed at the home user please that use proper commercial parts


----------



## dancing james

I tend to use subscriptions for beans. 750 g a month of hasbean sss and 500g of one single origin from BB.


----------



## jeebsy

dfk41 said:


> name some HX machines aimed at the home user please that use proper commercial parts


Ecm, rocket


----------



## 4085

jeebsy said:


> Ecm, rocket


watch this jeebsy


----------



## jeebsy

dfk41 said:


> watch this jeebsy


No, I don't really care.


----------



## ronsil

Nice looking,to my taste, Machine but can't see it produces anything different (better) than so many others in that market.

Are many really going to buy a machine for its potential long life rather than the results it produces.?

Sage is a case in point. Great coffee results but doesn't pretend to outlive the owner.


----------



## 4085

ronsil said:


> Nice looking,to my taste, Machine but can't see it produces anything different (better) than so many others in that market.
> 
> Are many really going to buy a machine for its potential long life rather than the results it produces.?
> 
> Sage is a case in point. Great coffee results but doesn't pretend to outlive the owner.


I do not think anyone is saying it does produce better coffee Ron. As usual, people come onto a thread and bring points for discussion, that end up in a defensive stance being taken. personally, I do not care if I am the only owner of one of these machines, nor do I care particularly to tell people about it. dancing james came on to ask about it and I was the only person to be able to give him some answers, then, the other questions/points come to the table and here we are!


----------



## Mrboots2u

From a description of the Silvia " Commercial-grade components: From the commercial portafilter to the internal workings, everything on the Silvia is built to last."

Anyway sure this machine will last .

As I said looks like the OP had done due diligence and is happy with price - looks and functionality . So enjoy your purchase


----------



## 7493

The Nota seems like an excellent and well thought out machine to me. However, if I was spending that kind of money I would also be looking at levers and double-boilers.


----------



## dancing james

Have just placed an order for the nota with the joystick controls for water and steam, and the laser etched side panels.


----------



## Dylan

dancing james said:


> Have just placed an order for the nota with the joystick controls for water and steam, and the laser etched side panels.


Congrats on your purchase, the heart wants what the heart wants. Let us know your thoughts when it is up and running.


----------



## glevum

excellent purchase, you ordered the 2 pump version?


----------



## h1udd

Nice ... Very envious, it's a handsom machine .... Love the 2 pumps as well ... Nothing worse than loosing a shot when the boiler does a cheeky refill mid shot


----------



## Dylan

My Expobar Office Pulsar has never done that mid-shot, the only thing that interrupts a shot is a low reservoir... I imagine there are many single pump machines that employ a system that stops the boiler refilling mid-shot, or simply opens up both waterways.

I think the Nota's 2-pump design is a 'no compromise' approach, but doesn't necessarily fix a problem


----------



## jeebsy

Dylan said:


> I imagine there are many single pump machines that employ a system that stops the boiler refilling mid-shot, or simply opens up both waterways.


Verona and the Vesuvius, that's about it apparently. My Brewtus went through a phase of doing it but had a sticky safety valve which meant the steam boiler was running a bit low and starting the pump triggered a refill


----------



## Dylan

jeebsy said:


> Verona and the Vesuvius, that's about it apparently. My Brewtus went through a phase of doing it but had a sticky safety valve which meant the steam boiler was running a bit low and starting the pump triggered a refill


So have I just been lucky with my entry-level Expo? Not happened in 2 years of ownership.


----------



## h1udd

Possibly lucky ... It's only happened to me few times in 8 years and only ever done it when I had a leaky opv or been using the hot water tap to top up drinks and not forced a boiler refil ... Certainly hasn't done it in the last couple of years since I learnt the conditions it does it in


----------



## Dylan

I may try and force a boiler refill with the group running if I can remember to do so when I'm next by my machine, see what happens.


----------



## dancing james

I am unlikely to be pulling shots and preparing milk simultaneously so decided against the 2nd pump.


----------



## 4085

I can happily report mine has never stalled either, but since it is plumbed in maybe thats expected!


----------



## h1udd

I imagine being a massive boiler the chance of it needing a top up is somewhat minimised


----------



## dancing james

coffeechap said:


> Is this the most expensive hx you can buy?


I think Kees Van Der Westen makes much more expensive HX machines.


----------



## Mrboots2u

dancing james said:


> I think Kees Van Der Westen makes much more expensive HX machines.


Probably about where the similarities end


----------



## dancing james

Nota is due to be shipped from Italy tomorrow.


----------



## 4085

dancing james said:


> Nota is due to be shipped from Italy tomorrow.


time to start on the Mrs then James about being allowed to unwrap it before Xmas day.......just tell her that she was the greatest present that you ever received and had to wait to unwrap her after the wedding do, so surely she will not ut you back through all that again!


----------



## dancing james

am one step ahead, she started a sewing course a few weeks ago. I bought her a sewing machine for Christmas but let her have it early so she could take it to her classes!

also I think i'll earn even more brownie points on Thursday as it's her birthday and I managed to get us a table at Gordon Ramsay and have ordered a delivery of her favourite chocolate croissants for breakfast.

the compak k10 has completely changed our coffee experience, she can't believe how much more that is to the flavour of coffee, am hoping the nota will refine this and that the boiler will help get better results from milk too.


----------



## Mrboots2u

@dancing james - steaming power will be a big step up. I remember going from a silvia to a L1 ( now slouch steaming ) - it will be quicker and you bound to blow some milk out the jug when you start . May be worth looking at steaming perhaps milk for two drinks and learning to split ...


----------



## dancing james

I have visions of a kitchen coated in milk for a few weeks.


----------



## Mrboots2u

dancing james said:


> I have visions of a kitchen coated in milk for a few weeks.


You will be fine . Just about finding the right starting point and angle for the tip on the milk


----------



## jlarkin

Could also consider using one of those little whisks? DFK might be able to show you what they're like?


----------



## 4085

jlarkin said:


> Could also consider using one of those little whisks? DFK might be able to show you what they're like?


hahahah @jlarkin........The Nota comes with a 4 hole, as BB if they have any 2 hole tips they can chuck in. It is a powerful steamer but it did not take my long at all to master it. I start off with the jug angled in towards the machine. Wand in fairly deep for the first 10 seconds then bring it up towards the surface. You can achieve a swirl fairly easily!


----------



## dancing james

Nota arrived at BB today, and will be with us by 10am xmas eve.


----------



## 4085

dancing james said:


> Nota arrived at BB today, and will be with us by 10am xmas eve.


may I be the first to say yippee......I am no longer on my own!


----------



## TomBurtonArt

Orchestrale are in dire need of a rebrand. Urgh on that logo!


----------



## dancing james

The Nota has landed.


----------



## glevum

Looks good, especially with the joysticks.


----------



## glevum

is that etched side panels or a reflection?


----------



## 4085

glevum said:


> is that etched side panels or a reflection?


etched....they do a range of different panels


----------



## dancing james

Laser etched. Somehow they make the machine seem less imposing.


----------



## 4085

Hi James, are you able to have a play today then? If you get stuck at all, pm me your mobile and we can have a chat. Looks lovely with the K10! These are really good machines and you are going to have fun marrying them together!


----------



## dancing james

A quick update.

We have had the machine for 10 months and it continues to work flawlessly. Shot after shot of great coffee. It is easy to maintain, still looks great and is a joy to use every day.


----------



## dancing james

did you ever plumb yours in? how does the drip tray tubing attach?


----------



## 4085

dancing james said:


> did you ever plumb yours in? how does the drip tray tubing attach?


I did indeed. If you speak to Jordan at BB and ask him for the fix he came up with. The original plumb in is crap as you can see the drain hole is up the sidewall meaning that there is always a pool of water. If you lift the drip tray out you will see a crossmember which is in the way, but, Jordan came up with a clever idea of drilling a hole in the bottom and attaching a t piece from a Profitec which works a treat


----------

