# Tamp and Dose Techniques



## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Sometimes when I dose 18g into a 18g VST basket it does not always fill to top. What do people do to level off. Is a tap to the side ok to do?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I dont do anything . I let the grinder distribute for me and a single straight solid tamp...no levelling. As per Colin Harmon on the 2012 WBC performance

If i'm struggling to fit a dose into the basket (due to a darker roast/less dense bean) then I collapse the mound by gentle vertical tap down on PF forks, still stays as a mound rather than a flat bed.

This is with a convex tamper mind : )


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

I find that darker roasted coffee tends to need a much coarser grind (plus its less dense) this means it sits higher in the basket..

hence, the opposite for lighter coffee..

This does throw up a "levelling off" question, as simply grinding to fill the basket does not usually give you 18g

Tapping the side of the basket can cause channeling, so I don't tap..


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Thanks both. What kind of levelling off technique do you normally use? When needed? Is Stockfleths Move a pretty standard one?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I dont level off at all. Tapping the side of the basket is not symetrical, tapping downwards on PF forks is, thus the hight of the mound colapses evenly


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

ah ok...So it this the best option isnstead of NESW or Stockfleths Move etc


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I dont do anything . I let the grinder distribute for me and a single straight solid tamp...no levelling. As per Colin Harmon on the 2012 WBC performance


Interested in this technique Gary..

When I grind directly into the basket, then do a straight level tamp on the nice "/\" pile i've created, i get really bad channeling issues in the bottomless PF.

I'd like to not touch the grounds if possible, but can't get decent extraction doing the above..

I wonder if the convex tamper is the reason this method works for you? (i'm using flat)


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Originally posted by dfk41 and wholly relevant to this discussion

http://londiniumespresso.com/blogs/londinium-espresso-blog/7565680-l1-user-tip-its-all-about-distribution


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

aphelion said:


> Interested in this technique Gary..
> 
> When I grind directly into the basket, then do a straight level tamp on the nice "/\" pile i've created, *i get really bad channeling issues in the bottomless PF.*I'd like to not touch the grounds if possible, but can't get decent extraction doing the above..
> 
> I wonder if the convex tamper is the reason this method works for you? (i'm using flat)


I have a doser grinder which removes all clumps, i just use what works for me after months of trial and error. Most of the great coffeeshops in Budapest uses the same technique regardless of grinder (Robur-e/Anfim/Mahlkonig) and their shots were superb

I would expect a flat tamper with a mound to create donut extractions not channelling per say


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Big Tony said:


> Originally posted by dfk41 and wholly relevant to this discussion
> 
> http://londiniumespresso.com/blogs/londinium-espresso-blog/7565680-l1-user-tip-its-all-about-distribution


This is why I don't dose directly into the portafilter, a bit more of a faff but enables knocking out any clumps and distributes grinds nicely when loading. Might not be as required on a titan grinder though where I would hope the distribution and evenness of the grind would be much better.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

skip to 3 mins






no levelling back then in 2009 either!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

forzajuve said:


> This is why I don't dose directly into the portafilter, a bit more of a faff but enables knocking out any clumps and distributes grinds nicely when loading. Might not be as required on a titan grinder though where I would hope the distribution and evenness of the grind would be much better.


Arent you loosing freshness exposing all the grinds to oxygen, have you timed how long it takes?


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I would expect a flat tamper with a mound to create donut extractions not channelling per say


Yep, that's what i'm seeing Gary

So with your technique, you don't need to touch the grinds at all?

I'm looking to get a new Reg Barber, so may opt for a convex base


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> skip to 3 mins


Did you notice the amount of grinds on the wall of the basket in the clip? I've found using VSTs with my Londinium far less forgiving than the stock baskets with horrendous splattering and channelling. Following Reiss's advice - see Big Tony's link above, I now use a toothpick to distribute the grinds in my HG One's blind tumbler basket prior to releasing the dose from the tumbler into the VST. Then use the Stockfleth move to distribute the cone - result - no channelling.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Did you notice the amount of grinds on the wall of the basket in the clip? I've found using VSTs with my Londinium far less forgiving than the stock baskets with horrendous splattering and channelling. Following Reiss's advice - see Big Tony's link above, I now use a toothpick to distribute the grinds in my HG One's blind tumbler basket prior to releasing the dose from the tumbler into the VST. Then use the Stockfleth move to distribute the cone - result - no channelling.


No I didnt i'm sure it doesnt affect result in the cup, note his technique hasnt changed in 4 years. If not broke , why fix it?

Customers wouldnt be waiting for the barista with his toothpick ; )


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

aphelion said:


> Yep, that's what i'm seeing Gary
> 
> So with your technique, *you don't need to touch the grinds at all?*I'm looking to get a new Reg Barber, so may opt for a convex base


Nope.

This topic has been expored in great detail in another thread, ill try to find it.

I had a flat version of my tamper and had donuts, convex = perfect.

I would say , if you insist on levelling - flat. If you like a mound - convex

The guys in Tamp n Pull had 3 tampers, they were all convex


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

Great link Gary and has got me intrigued enough to give your tamping method a go,it would definitely be easier and quicker than the stockfleths move I'm using at the mo


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

bubbajvegas said:


> Great link Gary and has got me intrigued enough to give your tamping method a go,it would definitely be easier and quicker than the stockfleths move I'm using at the mo


From what Ive seen of your grinder , you would have the perfect even mound to straight-tamp


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

Yep,it's a great mound and although my espro convex isn't a great fit in the VST ill give it a go


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

My TORR tamper is meant to be 58.7mm but seems perfect for VST


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Arent you loosing freshness exposing all the grinds to oxygen, have you timed how long it takes?


Hadn't really thought about that. Just timed myself and the additional time from finishing grinding to being at the point of about to tamp was 15secs which I don't think is too sad. I basically grind directly into a 250ml beaker and then just shake the beaker which breaks up clumps and helps to distribute, then pour into the portafilter and level off with a downward tap of the portafilter onto my tamp mat.

So it is an additional step due to the limitations of the grinder, but I have a method which is simple enough and gets consistent results. Obviously if I had a titan beast.........


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I dont think its even titan-based. anything with a doser should be able to allow this. If youre talking doserless then obviously something clump-less is better and these tend to be titans.

Ive been an advocate of the grinder doing the distribution for a long time & never happier with my espresso.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Yeah I can see that. I think it comes down to personal preference as to whether doser/doserless is a preferred method, both can be used to get good results. With all equipment choices there are trade offs. Maybe I need to get thwacking one day to give it a go.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> My TORR tamper is meant to be 58.7mm but seems perfect for VST


Do you have ridgeless VSTs?


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Gary, When dosing do you let any of the grinds spread. or do you keep it still to create the mound?

Looks like I need to purchase a new base for my pullman tamper eeeek


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Another question. Its actually cheaper to buy a whole new Reg Barber tamper than a new pullman base! Currently on the reg barber site. Whats the difference between us curve and euro curve?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

aphelion said:


> Do you have ridgeless VSTs?


yep. had a ridged 15g in the past , also worked fine


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

inaboxmedia said:


> Gary, When dosing do you let any of the grinds spread. or do you keep it still to create the mound?
> 
> Looks like I need to purchase a new base for my pullman tamper eeeek


no i keep it central and rotate clock/anti clock wise, around the central pivot-point.

I wouldnt go as far to change equipment, this is just my experience on my kit. Just keep experimenting yourself and do what works


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

inaboxmedia said:


> Another question. Its actually cheaper to buy a whole new Reg Barber tamper than a new pullman base! Currently on the reg barber site. Whats the difference between *us curve and euro curve?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> One is more aggressive than the other.
> 
> dont rule out a TORR, they are lovely http://cafe-kultur.de/collections/tampers


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Very nice! Some of them remind me of Made my knock. Good pricing also. My pullman is 58.35mm. The Torr is 58.4mm Im guessing this will be ok for my VST basket?

What tamper have you got gary?


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

Wow,some nice tampers there,particularly struck by the goldfinger 2012,

Best get saving me thinks


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Its one of the aluminium ones in bright orange. 58+ which im guessing they now list as 58.4, im sure the etching says 58.7mm. either way it fits perfectly in VSTs

This shows the base range http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0069/6182/products/shape_TORR_grande.jpg?151


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## totallywired (Jun 25, 2011)

What causes splattering with the naked PF? Just got mine about a week or so ago and getting mixed results, all totally drinkable.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Different types of convex also! why is nothing easy lol. I guess I would just go with a standard convex!



garydyke1 said:


> Its one of the aluminium ones in bright orange. 58+ which im guessing they now list as 58.4, im sure the etching says 58.7mm. either way it fits perfectly in VSTs
> 
> This shows the base range http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0069/6182/products/shape_TORR_grande.jpg?151


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

totallywired said:


> What causes splattering with the naked PF? Just got mine about a week or so ago and getting mixed results, all totally drinkable.


Can you give more info on equipment used and technique? Splattering can be caused by a host of things - uneven distribution; uneven tamping; too high a dose to name a few.


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

Well I've just tried your method Gary and I've got myself a new technique,actually better pattern from the naked I've had for a while,just goes to show the simplest ways are often the best,

Cheers


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

You cannot argue with the Londinium blog theory. The thing you cannot control, no matter how good your grinder is, is the manner in which the beans actually grinds, which can be influenced by a whole host of uncontrollable elements such as relative humidity, the dryness of the bean, the brittleness of the bean etc etc. that is why when a scientist tells you that to move nearer nirvana, you need to distribute, you do it......or if you are like me, you say bo**ocks and carry on as normal!


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## vikingboy (Mar 11, 2013)

Don take what Im about to write as gospel as I have

I grind straight into the PF, tamp down in one firm movement with a slight 30-40 degree twist (like that 2009 WBC guy does) to clean the tamper and polish the puck and make it look nice, whack it in machine and drink.

My random sprinklers in a naked PF were completely fixed with the addition of the Vario grinder. I think the MC2's need some help with distributing in better in the basket.

Ian


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## totallywired (Jun 25, 2011)

> Can you give more info on equipment used and technique? Splattering can be caused by a host of things - uneven distribution; uneven tamping; too high a dose to name a few.


I have an Izzo Duetto MKII, Eureka Mignon, Naked PF, 18g strada. Currently trying the NESW technique. Grind in to a glass then use a wooden skewer to break the clumps. When the coffee comes through should it start as drips then move to the centre as one stream?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

totallywired said:


> I have an Izzo Duetto MKII, Eureka Mignon, Naked PF, 18g strada. Currently trying the NESW technique. Grind in to a glass then use a wooden skewer to break the clumps. When the coffee comes through should it start as drips then move to the centre as one stream?


There are plenty of clips on YouTube showing perfect naked PF extraction. Have a look - much easier than trying to describe it in words.


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