# Londinium Custom Piston Seals



## aaronb

Has anybody ordered a set of the new 'custom' seals for their Londinium machine? (As documented on the Londinium blog)

I had been considering replacing mine as it approaches 4 years of daily use but wasn't sure if these were just for the people whose machines were catching a bit too high or for all the machines out there. I replace the group seal every year or so as needed, but have never touched the piston ones other than to clean and re-lube them and the bore as needed (again roughly yearly).

I still really need to get my toggles lubed as well, can anybody remember the mm of the nuts?

Thanks.


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## fluffles

There's also the new cafelat silicon seals to consider. Interested to see how they both perform


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## The Systemic Kid

aaronb said:


> I still really need to get my toggles lubed as well, can anybody remember the mm of the nuts?
> 
> Thanks.


Adjustable wrench works well. Recommend taping the nut with insulating or Gaffer tape to protect it when the wrench or spanner is applied. I've done the job on a couple of LIs now and have got away with using just one wrench whilst holding the pipe at the T. Both have required considerable effort to undo - why they are tightened so hard at the factory is beyond me.


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## NickdeBug

The Systemic Kid said:


> Adjustable wrench works well. Recommend taping the nut with insulating or Gaffer tape to protect it when the wrench or spanner is applied.


Probably easier to tape the jaws of the wrench rather than the nut itself. Insulating tape does work well for this.


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## iroko

It's probably worth doing the seals after 4 years, If you've got a new set of the old seals i'd use them. I think the new seals are replacing

the standard seals.


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## The Systemic Kid

Changed the seals on, ahem, Jamie Cullum's LI at the recent Rave day. They'd hardened and become completely brittle. Wonder they still worked.


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## johnealey

Hi @fluffles

Not that in any immediate need for a set but liking the cafelat group gaskets, would you be able to advise where could find a cafelat set of piston gaskets for this lever group please?

Many thanks

John


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## fluffles

https://www.cafelatstore.com/collections/frontpage/products/copy-of-astoria-modern-lever-group-v-rings

Afaik you can only get them direct from the above link. If they grab well I would expect them to be a better option as they don't get brittle like the standard ones do. Think I might take a punt on them along with a silicone portafilter gasket


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## johnealey

Thanks for the above, just found the link on the Londinium site and was coming back to say "found them" (only took me since last post







) to see you posted above









John


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## Thecatlinux

I was fortunate and Patrick showed me the the seals from the cullum machine , they snapped and crumbled like an oxo

i would think at four years usage Aaronb it would be a prudent step .

observation of my personal machine which is fired via wemo at least twice a day and continuous weekend usage , after a year of estimated 1000-1500 shots the seals were in GOOD condition.

At the relative low cost and ease of replacement a yearly service/inspection isn't a major chore .


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## aaronb

Yep fairly certain I'm going to change them, just want a bit more info on the newer style seals but it seems Londinium have discontinued the old ones so maybe it's a moot point!


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## Thecatlinux

http://kostverlorenvaart.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/londinium-have-new-upgraded-seals-for.html


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## grumpydaddy

So at the Cafelat store is it 1/3 or 3/1 ??


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## johnealey

I looked at that a bit puzzled too however reasoned that it was 1/3 solely on 1 group gasket / 3 lever gaskets for the piston.

Mind you there was no option for 2 group gaskets/ 6 piston gaskets which peeved me (could do with being explained better, glad it wasn't just me







)

John


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## Milanski

Really like silicon group gaskets. There's a satisfying amount of play in them to know you're getting a good seal.

Not tried on L1 yet though...


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## Tewdric

I have just received a new steam wand and portafilter seals for my L1 and 3 of the new type piston seals were included for free. I'll fit them over the weekend and add a couple of pics.


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## Tewdric

Ok new seals fitted today. I can't really notice any difference tbh but then my existing seals were only 18 months old I think, and in good nick. If anything the handle engages a bit lower but then the groups just had a service, so it should!

Incidentally the pictures on the Londinium forum show the new type to have very tiny ridges in them whereas mine appeared to the naked eye to be smooth like the old ones, although they did seem a tighter and better fit. The machines working perfectly anyway so I'll not worry for another 18 months or so!


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## arellim

Any pictures?

What angle do you bite at now?


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## Tewdric

arellim said:


> Any pictures?
> 
> What angle do you bite at now?


I didn't bother taking pictures on the fitting as there is no visual difference to that. I'll leave it a couple of days to bed in properly and post a pic of the bite angle, sure.


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## Tewdric

Here we go - nice 45 degree catch. This was with 10s preinfusion too.


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## aaronb

The Systemic Kid said:


> Adjustable wrench works well. Recommend taping the nut with insulating or Gaffer tape to protect it when the wrench or spanner is applied. I've done the job on a couple of LIs now and have got away with using just one wrench whilst holding the pipe at the T. Both have required considerable effort to undo - why they are tightened so hard at the factory is beyond me.


Despite brute force I cannot get the end cap off, and ended up turning the entire t a few mm. Any tips?


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## The Systemic Kid

They seem to be over tightened at the factory - why, I do not understand. If it's that tight, you might need the help of someone to counter the force you're applying to the end cap by holding the tee section where the steam wand attaches.

Mine endcap nut is now finger tight - no problems with that.


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## aaronb

Yeah I tried holding with one hand an twisting with the other but it isn't happening. Did you just hold the T itself?

When facing the machine, which way should I be turning the end cap to unscrew it?

I will try and recruit someone stronger than me (not hard) to hold it, good advice!


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## The Systemic Kid

Recall Reiss suggesting use of an adjustable wrench on the T but on mine and another LI I serviced, got away holding the T assembly by hand as I undid the end cap. Getting someone to hold the T either by hand or with an adjustable wrench leaves you free to concentrate of the pesky end cap.


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## fluffles

Are we talking about the steam and water arms here? Can you not use another wrench on the nut on the inside of the machine (behind the front panel) to stop it turning?


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## The Systemic Kid

You can but the problem is the distance from it to the end cap making it more likely you'll end up bending the assembly. Securing the T, one way or another, is the best way of avoiding this.


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## aaronb

Can you just confirm which way to turn the nut when facing the machine, so I can rule out the possibility I'm doing it wrong


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## The Systemic Kid

aaronb said:


> Can you just confirm which way to turn the nut when facing the machine, so I can rule out the possibility I'm doing it wrong


Anti-clockwise to unscrew.


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## aaronb

Yeah that's the way was trying, phew! Tried to get the steam wand off as well to lube the joint and it isn't budging.

Many thanks as always for your help TSK


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## Tewdric

I've just replaced my steam wand and it was an absolute doddle. I have been meaning to for ages as I had one of the original 2 hole wands. The upgrade to the new type 4 hole is amazing; much finer velvety microfoam. This, along with some portafilter seals, got me my free set of new piston seals!


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## aaronb

Ooh I hadn't considered that, I'm on the old one too. Is it really that much better? I rarely steam milk, only when friends are over who want it.


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## Phil104

Did you have to replace the whole wand rather than just the tip?


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## Tewdric

Yes the whole wand. It's a better design as you don't get milk gunk around the tip thread like you do in the old wands. Night and day difference, absolutely do it.


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## iroko

Have you got a longer spanner to give you a bit more leverage on the end cap, or maybe tap the end cap lightly a few times with a small wooden mallet.


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## aaronb

iroko said:


> Have you got a longer spanner to give you a bit more leverage on the end cap, or maybe tap the end cap lightly a few times with a small wooden mallet.


I'm using a flat toothed (for want of a better word) adjustable one, cant find a 26mm spanner that's easily accessible. The mallet would just make the entire T rotate.


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## johnealey

Hi Aaron, Reiss has just answered your thread over on the Londinium blog if not seen it yet

John


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## aaronb

Yeah I get email updates on the Londinium support forum but thanks!


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## Phil104

The other thing I meant to ask - have you fitted the new, longer wand?


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## aaronb

Phil104 said:


> The other thing I meant to ask - have you fitted the new, longer wand?


Is that @ me?

If so no, I may still do it. I'm in 2 minds as I steam milk so rarely.


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## Tewdric

It's not really any longer but it does allow the new type 2 and 4 hole tips to be fitted, and is much easier to clean. Between fitting this and the 4 hole tip, and the new seals, to my Mk1 L1 it has made it feel like a new machine. I would very, very highly recommend the upgrade.


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## Phil104

aaronb said:


> Is that @ me?
> 
> If so no, I may still do it. I'm in 2 minds as I steam milk so rarely.


Yes - and thanks. I rarely steam milk as well - maybe four times a week for a flat wife for my wife. It's one reason (I like to think) why my latte art is erratic- I don't get enough practice.


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## Phil104

Tewdric said:


> It's not really any longer but it does allow the new type 2 and 4 hole tips to be fitted, and is much easier to clean. Between fitting this and the 4 hole tip, and the new seals, to my Mk1 L1 it has made it feel like a new machine. I would very, very highly recommend the upgrade.


Thanks - and I have got muddled up in this thread - not paying enough attention. Sounds like it is time for a wand upgrade.


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## aaronb

Just swapped my seals out for the new custom ones. Amazingly after 4 years the old ones were still flexy and not too bad, just quite crusty with gunk inside. The loxeal is a lot thicker than the old londinium lube too. only used a tiny bit and it seems to have done the job.

I bought the new v2 steam wand to replace the v1 one, I assume you should put a tiny bit of lube on the ball joint?


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## grumpydaddy

You have just completed all of the changes I have planned...

Interested to know how you feel about the differences in use, if any, particularly with regards to the wand.

I cannot think of a reason not to lube the ball


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## aaronb

I probably steam milk once a month if that, and im crap at it. I'll let you know though.

Looking forward to making a coffee tomorrow, I've got a new bag of beans rested 12 days and deep cleaned the grinder. Lots of positive feedback on the Londinium forum.


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## aaronb

The machine is behaving beautifully with the new seals, lever catching lower and gliding soother. I seem to be getting a bit more volume out too. The old ones clearly were shot.


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## fluffles

Anyone ordered silicone piston seals from cafelat?


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## Phil104

fluffles said:


> Anyone ordered silicone piston seals from cafelat?


Nope&#8230;sorry.


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## arellim

Just received the new Londinium seals yesterday. I don't like the idea of having to cut out the old ones (just in case!) but can't see any other option to (relatively) easily get them off!!

Currently an 11 o'clock bite so hopefully it'll come down a bit with the new seals.


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## The Systemic Kid

You can prise them off by inserting a screwdriver underneath but it's much easier to cut through them with something like a scalpel or Stanley knife. Cut at a 45 degree angle and press rather than use a cutting action.


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## aaronb

I cut mine with a stanley knife too, its easy.

The hard bit is getting the new ones on!


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## aaronb

Tewdric said:


> I've just replaced my steam wand and it was an absolute doddle. I have been meaning to for ages as I had one of the original 2 hole wands. The upgrade to the new type 4 hole is amazing; much finer velvety microfoam. This, along with some portafilter seals, got me my free set of new piston seals!


The new steam wand seems to have a different system than the old one.

Is it the plastic white washer on top of the ball, then the metal washer, then the metally thing with the spring on top?

The two tiny seals on the metally thing look a bit shot two, has anyone had to replace them?


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## aaronb

I've somewhat answered my own question, as the white plastic bit had an indent for the ball. I couldn't get it on with the metal washer on top however. It just about fits without the metal washer. Has anybody else had an issue?


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## arellim

I don't have a metal washer! Should I?!


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## lespresso

aaronb said:


> I've somewhat answered my own question, as the white plastic bit had an indent for the ball. I couldn't get it on with the metal washer on top however. It just about fits without the metal washer. Has anybody else had an issue?


throw the metal washer in the bin. chamfered face of the ptfe washer to the ball.


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## aaronb

lespresso said:


> throw the metal washer in the bin. chamfered face of the ptfe washer to the ball.


Thank Reiss, and then the driver straight on top? I don't need the rubber seal on top of the ball on the old wand do I?

Are the seals on the drivers ones I can buy from any hardware store, or are they special ones I need to buy from you as part of the full service kit?

Just pulled another beautiful shot, the difference with the new piston seals is incredible.


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## lespresso

Yes, that's right. The o- rings are viton; I'm sure you'll be able to find them around


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## dsc

Curious if the Cafelat silicone piston seals are still an unknown? wanted to try this kit out before Christmas if possible:

http://www.cafelatstore.com/collections/frontpage/products/modern-lever-group-gaskets-kit

If there's anyone else who's interested let me know below and we'll split the costs of shipping / taxes.

Cheers,

T.


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## The Systemic Kid

Would be interested in a set of seals and portafilter gasket.


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## dsc

So this in effect:

http://www.cafelatstore.com/products/copy-of-astoria-modern-lever-group-v-rings

?

T.


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## The Systemic Kid

That's the one.


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## Thecatlinux

I would like a tamper stand , buts it's not important


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## drude

dsc said:


> So this in effect:
> 
> http://www.cafelatstore.com/products/copy-of-astoria-modern-lever-group-v-rings
> 
> ?
> 
> T.


I'd be interested in a set of these too


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## dsc

OK just add your names to the list then, as per the usual rules:

1. dsc - 1 x seals + screen kit

2. The Systematic Kid - 1 x seals kit

3.drude - 1 x seals kit

@Thecatlinux if you still want that tamper stand drop your name on the list









I don't really want the list to grow to massive proportions, so lets give it say 24hrs and I'll place an order. I'm also waiting for Paul to confirm if the kits are already available through resellers.

T.


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## 4515

I'm up for a seals kit if that's ok


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## RASD4651

Just changed my seal because it occasionally leaked and dropped in pressure. The seals were gone. The new seals are brilliant it's like having a new machine again and the shot is sooo much better.


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## dsc

1. dsc - 1 x seals + screen kit

2. The Systematic Kid - 1 x seals kit

3. drude - 1 x seals kit

4. working dog - 1 x seals kit

T.


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## Snakehips

Just a note re the new Londinium piston seals.

I had my machine new back in March 2016 and I have to say that he first couple of weeks were hugely frustrating. Lever grab with the original seals was extremely poor, very high, resulting in seriously low volume, rubbish shots. This continued to be the case even after the supplied spare set were fitted. Londinium gave help and advice along the way but in this instance, all to no avail. Eventually I took it upon myself to pack out the bottom seal by winding a few turns of PTFE tape in the root of the seal groove and from that day on the machine never skipped a beat!! Apart from when I removed the PTFE one day just out of curiosity. (Soon put it back again!) I'm not sure that my solution found immediate favour with Reiss but I note that a few months back he was recommending exactly that as the best interim solution, pending the introduction of the new seals.

So, there was no pressing need for me to do so but I have recently obtained and fitted a set of the new seals and I found them to be absolutely A1 from the get go !!

Somewhat stiffer feeling than the old ones they are arguably a tad more awkward to fit but it still isn't a difficult task. Bish, bash, bosh, no fuss - Brilliant!

For me it is a real joy both to own and use the L1 and it's great to think that there is no further need to, potentially, have to tinker with the seals.

I will await the feedback on the silicon seals with interest but have no current dissatisfaction with the existing.

I have also just fitted the IMS 35micron shower screen which I am very pleased with.

Are L1 owners aware that anyone placing an order valued over £50, with Londinium, before Christmas will receive a complimentary set of the new piston seals?

PS Anybody want to buy a part used roll of PTFE tape ?


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## Thecatlinux

1. dsc - 1 x seals + screen kit

2. The Systematic Kid - 1 x seals kit

3. drude - 1 x seals kit

4. working dog - 1 x seals kit

5. THecatLinux Tamper stand


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## johnealey

1. dsc - 1 x seals + screen kit

2. The Systematic Kid - 1 x seals kit

3. drude - 1 x seals kit

4. working dog - 1 x seals kit

5. THecatLinux Tamper stand

6. johnealey - 2x seals kit (as per TSK but 2 of please)


​


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## fluffles

Could someone please add me? Put me down for 1x V seal, 1x portafilter seal and 1x shower screen


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## The Systemic Kid

1. dsc - 1 x seals + screen kit

2. The Systematic Kid - 1 x seals kit

3. drude - 1 x seals kit

4. working dog - 1 x seals kit

5. THecatLinux Tamper stand

6. johnealey - 2x seals kit (as per TSK but 2 of please)

7. fluffles - 1 x V seal, 1 x portafilter seal, 1 x shower screen


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## dsc

OK lets close the list then, got info from Paul that there's loads of stock available, so there should no issues with ordering more. Here's some numbers and prices:

1. dsc - 1 x Modern Lever Group gaskets KIT $41.50

2. The Systematic Kid - 1 x Modern Lever Group gaskets (1 x gasket seal, 3 x piston seal) $21.50

3. drude - 1 x Modern Lever Group gaskets (1 x gasket seal, 3 x piston seal) $21.50

4. working dog - 1 x Modern Lever Group gaskets (1 x gasket seal, 3 x piston seal) $21.50

5. @Thecatlinux can you please confirm (with a link to the product) which stand you are interested in? not sure if you just want a tamper seat like this:

http://www.cafelatstore.com/products/tamper-seat

or a proper full whack tampING stand like this:

http://www.cafelatstore.com/products/cafelat-tamping-stand

or something else









6. johnealey - 2 x Modern Lever Group gaskets (2 x gasket seal, 6 x piston seal) $43.00

7. fluffles - 1 x Modern Lever Group gaskets (1 x gasket seal, 1 x piston seal) $13.00 and 1 x IMS Competition 200 IM E61 screen lever groups $20.00 TOTAL: $33.00

Total order so far (without TCL for now): $182.00

No idea now much shipping is going to be or whether we'll get hit with taxes (I assume so), but any extras are divided by 7, so should be reasonable.

T.


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## Thecatlinux

Yes tom the full whack one please

http://www.cafelatstore.com/products/cafelat-tamping-stand

quite happy to pay up front just let me know


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com

We've supplied a few sets of the new seals to folks now and have had nothing but positive feedback. They have been custom made specifically for the L1 and work beautifully. I know that Reiss and the guys in Birmingham worked hard to get this stuff ironed out and it's great to see such good results.


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## dsc

Thecatlinux said:


> Yes tom the full whack one please
> 
> http://www.cafelatstore.com/products/cafelat-tamping-stand
> 
> quite happy to pay up front just let me know


No worries about the monies, just wasn't sure what you need that is clear now so I'll try and place an order tomorrow (on the road today).

T.


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## dsc

Apologies for not updating this, still haven't put the order in as I ended up being away from home for a week. Will try and organise something this week.

T.

EDIT: Order's in, came to just over $300 as I've added a pair of cups and a group brush, $50 for shipping. Not sure what taxes to expect but at least it's split across seven!







should have it here mid Jan, unless HK shuts down for a long time over New Year.


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## dsc

Right, here's the final list, I'll try and put an order in tonight:

1 dsc Modern Lever Group gaskets KIT $41.50 1 $41.50 http://www.cafelatstore.com/products/modern-lever-group-gaskets-kit

2 The Systematic Kid Modern Lever Group gaskets (1 x gasket seal, 3 x piston seal) $21.50 1 $21.50 http://www.cafelatstore.com/products/copy-of-astoria-modern-lever-group-v-rings

3 drude Modern Lever Group gaskets (1 x gasket seal, 3 x piston seal) $21.50 1 $21.50 http://www.cafelatstore.com/products/copy-of-astoria-modern-lever-group-v-rings

4 working dog Modern Lever Group gaskets (1 x gasket seal, 3 x piston seal) $21.50 1 $21.50 http://www.cafelatstore.com/products/copy-of-astoria-modern-lever-group-v-rings

5 Thecatlinux Tamping Stand $28.00 1 $28.00 http://www.cafelatstore.com/products/cafelat-tamping-stand

6 johnealey Modern Lever Group gaskets (1 x gasket seal, 3 x piston seal) $21.50 2 $43.00 http://www.cafelatstore.com/products/copy-of-astoria-modern-lever-group-v-rings

7 fluffles Modern Lever Group gaskets (1 x gasket seal, 1 x piston seal) $13.00 1 $13.00 http://www.cafelatstore.com/products/copy-of-astoria-modern-lever-group-v-rings

8 fluffles IMS Competition 200 IM E61 screen lever groups $20.00 1 $20.00 http://www.cafelatstore.com/products/ims-screen

TOTAL: $210.00

T.

EDIT: sh*te, I've updated the wrong post above, anyways, here it is again: Order's in, came to just over $300 as I've added a pair of cups and a group brush, $50 for shipping. Not sure what taxes to expect but at least it's split across seven!







should have it here mid Jan, unless HK shuts down for a long time over New Year.


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## dsc

Just got an email it's all been shipped, should take roughly 5-10 days I think. I'll let you know when it's here.

T.


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## dsc

Good news, tracking says it's been released by customs, might even get delivered tomorrow. Uber fast!

T.


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## dsc

Nah looks like its held until customs charges are paid, fingers crossed its not a massive charge and that the letter outlining the charges arrives quickly. Will keep you updated...

T.


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## dsc

Good news, charges are low, only around £25, all paid now, box should be with me tomorrow.

Could everyone from the order list PM me with their email address? I can then forward on a cost breakdown spreadsheet so its clear who owes what, what the exchange rate was etc.

T.


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## dsc

@drude, @working dog , @Thecatlinux, @fluffles can you PM me your emails so that I can forward the breakdown cost spreadsheet please.

Thanks,

T.


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## dsc

OK two down two to go, just @drude and @Thecatlinux left









T.


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## dsc

It has arrived


















T.


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## Thecatlinux

Pm sent


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## dsc

Cheers! got all email addresses now, just dropped you all a short email to check the group contact works OK, spreadsheet to follow later on.

T.


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## johnealey

Email received fine









John


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## Thecatlinux

Yes all good mail received


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## dsc

I'm sure there's a milion ways to do this, but this is a method which worked for me when putting new seals on:

- you'll need three wooden / plastic sticks (roughly 50mm x 5mm) and a thick tie wrap (preferably removable / reusable one) NOTE: you can use more sticks if you want, it will make easier to slide the seals on

- use the tie wrap to hold the tops of the sticks at 120deg intervals, don't tighten the tie wrap all the way, give yourself some room for adjustments

- when you have the sticks at the right angles / positions, tighten the tie wrap so the sticks stay in place and won't move / slip out when pushed on from the bottom

- slide the seals on above their seats, some grease might help, position everything right so that the only thing stopping the seals from popping into place are the sticks

- remove the tie wrap (either cut or unzip) and carefully remove the sticks one by one, the seals should fall into the seats properly

Plastic might work better than wood as with wood you can get splinters separating when pushing the seals on.

T.


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## grumpydaddy

What I used was an old presentation file, the type you use as a cover for small numbers of hole punched pages .

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A4-Quality-Project-Presentation-Document-Report-Files-Folders-2-Prong-RED-/231954535345?var=&hash=item36019153b1:m:mhhX-A8xyNg582e4Ki16o5A

Cut if preferred, roll into tube around piston, slightly cone the overhang and slide seals over and into place.

Certainly worked with these softer seals.


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## stevogums

What's the feed back on these silicone seals ?

Curious to see what people think


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## grumpydaddy

Easy to fit. No issues in use.

Portafilter seal is nicer in my view but I recognise that this may be biased by comparing with the old one at point of change. That said, none of the old seals were particularly hard


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## fluffles

I like the portafilter seal, much prefer the feel of it when locking in. Not used the piston seals yet, going to wait until it's needed


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## Tewdric

I haven't really noticed any difference, but then I used to look after the old ones and lube them every 6 months.


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## coffeechap

But what about grab? Where is the l1 now grabbing with the cafelat seals?


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## Tewdric

Sorry I meant the new type Londinium not Cafelat.


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## dsc

Here's a video showing the new Cafelat silicone seals in action during a shot:






T.


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## lespresso

thanks for posting that video of the cafelat seals on an L1 tom, even if it seems to be in the wrong thread, as i achieved exactly the same results with them on the L1

now you will appreciate why we had to develop our own piston seals

our seals will transform any machine that uses this group, including the idrocompresso

that's not a bold claim, you can fit them and see the difference

why? because they are the correct size.


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## holdtheonions

Not sure if valid comparison or means anything, but I had to relube the new custom seals after about 7 weeks, whereas on my zacconi only had to do about every 6 months before slipping set in. Was going to try the cafelat seals next if it keeps happening. Wondering if anyone else has already had to relube them?


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## lespresso

that is atypical behaviour. what grease are you using? email me & i'll send you another set of seals. buy yourself a set of Cafelat seals in the meantime so you can do a side by side test. best, reiss.


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## Thecatlinux

holdtheonions said:


> Not sure if valid comparison or means anything, but I had to relube the new custom seals after about 7 weeks, whereas on my zacconi only had to do about every 6 months before slipping set in. Was going to try the cafelat seals next if it keeps happening. Wondering if anyone else has already had to relube them?


Patrick changed,the seals on my beloved machine on the lever rave day , can't remember when that was , lever grab wasn't an issue beforehand (it was done as a demo ) and hasn't been since , TBH I was suprised on how good the condition of the replaced seals were.

getting back to your post I haven't relubed these new seals,and haven't even considered it , I will be taking the group apart per annum and hopefully when I work out when that is I will post up some pictures .

all working flawlessly

PS what grease are you using ?


----------



## arellim

My new seals are are starting to 'jitter', but not slip. Is this a sign I should be re-lubing?


----------



## coffeechap

The lubing should eliminate that


----------



## coffeechap

arellim said:


> My new seals are are starting to 'jitter', but not slip. Is this a sign I should be re-lubing?


What grease are you using?


----------



## arellim

coffeechap said:


> What grease are you using?


The one from Londinium direct.


----------



## mathof

arellim said:


> My new seals are are starting to 'jitter', but not slip. Is this a sign I should be re-lubing?


You may not have put enough Loxeal on in the first instance.

Matt


----------



## holdtheonions

I used loxeal first time and dow 111 second time. First time I used a rubber spatula and applied to all of the inside. Too much actually, took the screen off couple days later and a bit of grease in there. This time I used less, and only lubed the top and bottom parts of the grouphead and the seals only a little bit. It slipped again today on my second shot. Prolly didn't put enough on the second time, regardless I just ordered the cafelat seals. One thing I noticed is that the bottom seal wasn't flaring out anymore like the top two seals, it was more or less flat if you will, but I couldn't remember if it was flat when I got it. Top two seals look fine, so planning just to replace the bottom seal and see how it compares, but apparently take a bit to get here from Asia.


----------



## Thecatlinux

holdtheonions said:


> I used loxeal first time and dow 111 second time. First time I used a rubber spatula and applied to all of the inside. Too much actually, took the screen off couple days later and a bit of grease in there. This time I used less, and only lubed the top and bottom parts of the grouphead and the seals only a little bit. It slipped again today on my second shot. Prolly didn't put enough on the second time, regardless I just ordered the cafelat seals. One thing I noticed is that the bottom seal wasn't flaring out anymore like the top two seals, it was more or less flat if you will, but I couldn't remember if it was flat when I got it. Top two seals look fine, so planning just to replace the bottom seal and see how it compares, but apparently take a bit to get here from Asia.


Not trying to cause upset or patronise you , but you seem to be making what is a simple operation sound complicated. Which it is not .


----------



## holdtheonions

Thecatlinux said:


> Not trying to cause upset or patronise you , but you seem to be making what is a simple operation sound complicated. Which it is not .


You have done neither







, I overlubed once and it slipped after 7 weeks, I then underlubed and it slipped after about 2 weeks. Doesn't get any simpler than that ;-).

Will try the new seals, but if I have to lube every 7-8 weeks, then I will just have to do as it's very easy anyway on this machine. If I had to do that often on zacconi...I prolly wouldn't.


----------



## Thecatlinux

Neither in your context is a negative , like I said "not trying to cause upset or patronise you" that kind of behaviour is not necessary.

Perhaps what I was trying to say was

People considering a Londinium machine or people who already own a Londinium machine should not be perturbed by the replacement of the piston seals as it is a simple operation .

Good luck with your new seals I am sure, nay positive that will sort out your problem .


----------



## holdtheonions

I'm confused by your previous post and somehow don't think we are have having the same conversation. You seem to be reading into my posts things I didn't say. If you please reread my posts I only indicated that I was having slipping problems with the new seals and asked if anyone else was having the same issues. I didn't comment on this either positively or negatively, only that it was occurring and I was inclined to try the cafelat seals to see how they compare based upon my previous lever experience. I also made no comment on whether I believed replacing the seals was a difficulty or inconvenience in any regard, so I am not sure how you are interpreting this. Regardless, I have no hard feelings and hope you don't either. I'm gonna give this thread a rest, good luck with it.


----------



## Thecatlinux

MY BAD

Definitely no hard feelings fella , I tend not to do that kind of thing .


----------



## CamV6

lespresso said:


> thanks for posting that video of the cafelat seals on an L1 tom, even if it seems to be in the wrong thread, as i achieved exactly the same results with them on the L1
> 
> now you will appreciate why we had to develop our own piston seals
> 
> our seals will transform any machine that uses this group, including the idrocompresso
> 
> that's not a bold claim, you can fit them and see the difference
> 
> why? because they are the correct size.


Reiss I have a set of the cafelat seals ready to use. Are they not a good idea? If needs be I'll get a set of yours, I just want to do it right, once is all.


----------



## Paul Pratt

Hi all. Please allow me to just make a quick post and put down clearly some details regarding the silicone seals.

The silicone seals I make for the lever groups (and all other silicone seals we make) were developed purely to remove rubber from being in contact with potable water, silicone is a much better material with regards food safety, it does not impart any flavours, rubber taste, does not bake hard, easy to install and remove etc.....each seal we make has a corresponding 3rd party test certificate available for anyone to look at. OK so the boring bit is out of the way.

There have been so many comments and discussions about something that should never even be mentioned. The Condor group (used by Bosco, Quickmill, Kees, Londinium, Pull) seals were tested for 1 year and we had many people also test them incl. Reiss as he said he was having issues with the rubber seals not sealing and allowing for a full extraction. The silicone seals are the standard size, nothing magical about them apart from the fact that they are a softer silicone and not rubber. They are not intended to fix any problems the group has and people have been having for the past 4 years.

I've been using them everyday for years and they perform as they should do - it's just a seal at the end of the day. The lever group should bite just past the horizontal, that is what it does and is to be expected. If it does not do that then something is wrong. I had a youtube video of changing the seals and pulled a sample shot. It was mentioned here that my pre-infusion was too long which accounted for the low lever grab. I have my flow valve turned down to allow a more gentle pre-infusion, I did a quick instagram video the other week after opening the valve with a 3 second pre-infusion:


__
http://instagr.am/p/BQe3t17gAEQ/

That to me is a normal grab. If you are not getting that something is wrong. If the lever was not biting until further up, then normally I would explore grind setting, dosage and the infusion flow. However I now know from having groups on hand and from dealing with equipment manufacturers that the problem is most likely the actual group itself, in particular manufacturing tolerances are out of whack. The slipping is not confined to Londinium, but also Quickmill.

I estimate we have sold around 1k seals so far and in there are 2 orders to manufacturers. So far we have had 2 issues reported to us, both users had slipping rubber seals which is why they bought ours as well to test. In that case I mentioned to both of them that the jumbo seals from Londinium were the perfect answer.

I have waffled on about seals again...it is completely unnecessary. They should be an insignificant part of the machine.



lespresso said:


> thanks for posting that video of the cafelat seals on an L1 tom, even if it seems to be in the wrong thread, as i achieved exactly the same results with them on the L1
> 
> now you will appreciate why we had to develop our own piston seals
> 
> our seals will transform any machine that uses this group, including the idrocompresso
> 
> that's not a bold claim, you can fit them and see the difference
> 
> why? because they are the correct size.


As I mentioned at the beginning the silicone seals are the standard size, the same as the ones you have been using for the past 4 years. The only differences being are the material and the hardness. Now if my seal dimensions are incorrect...


----------



## holdtheonions

That's disconcerting, so I'm left wondering if bottom seal is bad or grouphead is a lemon. The slipping stopped after a couple days, but then started up two days ago. I got cafelat seals yesterday and changed the bottom one this morning and took some pics. Notice the bottom custom seal has almost no flare to it. The top two flare out like I would expect. I don't know if bottom one is defective or they just get that way from use, but thinking that is the cause of the slipping. Hoping it is anyway. You can see the difference with the cafelat seal below it.

I tried 3 pulls on the cafelat seal and no slipping, too early to tell, but will report back if it starts. The lever grabs maybe a little lower than the custom, but hardly noticeable difference.

Also, the cafelat seal does not have the same vertical dimension as the custom seals and piston slot, it is a mm or so shorter. You can see the gap at the bottom of the seal. I don't know if that means anything or not.

Also the silicone group gasket is wonderful.


----------



## coffeechap

@Paul Pratt

I posted a comment earlier in this thread re your video and am still intrigued as the answer has not been given, what size baskets and what size dose you are using in the videos?


----------



## Paul Pratt

coffeechap said:


> @Paul Pratt
> 
> I posted a comment earlier in this thread re your video and am still intrigued as the answer has not been given, what size baskets and what size dose you are using in the videos?


Sorry did not see your comment. In all those videos I am using IMS Comp double baskets with approx 17g-18g.


----------



## dsc

For anyone interested here's some measurements I took whilst changing the seals on my Londinium L1:

Aod = 40.964mm, Aw = 8.05mm

Bod = 40.967mm, Bw = 8.02mm

Cod = 40.970mm, Cw = 8.02mm

Bore ID = 51.22mm - 51.23mm

where:

#od - outside diameter of the seal seat

#w - width of the seal seat

A is the seat closest to the bottom of the piston

C is the seat furthest away from the bottom of the piston, right next to the spring.

T.


----------



## Thecatlinux

dsc said:


> For anyone interested here's some measurements I took whilst changing the seals on my Londinium L1:
> 
> Aod = 40.964mm, Aw = 8.05mm
> 
> Bod = 40.967mm, Bw = 8.02mm
> 
> Cod = 40.970mm, Cw = 8.02mm
> 
> Bore ID = 51.22mm - 51.23mm
> 
> where:
> 
> #od - outside diameter of the seal seat
> 
> #w - width of the seal seat
> 
> A is the seat closest to the bottom of the piston
> 
> C is the seat furthest away from the bottom of the piston, right next to the spring.
> 
> T.


what was the ambient temperature for these measurements?

only kidding 

i love these numbers as helps sharpen my mental arithmetic (is that spelt right? )


----------



## CamV6

If anyone wants to try a set of cafelat piston rings I have some available


----------



## 4515

Resurrecting this thread.

My piston seals were ready for changing as they had become hard. I had a set of the Cafelat seals so stripped the group, cleaned it all up and fitted the silicone seals.

First shot, the lever is biting really high (about 2 o'clock). Tried a second shot .... exactly the same.

Left it an hour - no change.

Its a pity as I suspect that if the seals were the right size (this seems to be the issue from earlier discussions in the thread) that the silicone would be a better alternative to the standard seal.

Ive now ordered a set of seals from LE and will be fitting them as soon as they arrive.

I'm glad I tried the alternative seals but wont be buying another cafelat seal

Will try and upload a video of the pull but its pretty much the same as dsc's


----------



## dsc

I still need to try the LE ones, do let us know what you think when you fit them.

T.


----------



## 4515

Will do. I'll load a couple of videos on youtube and link to them when I have both to compare.


----------



## Paul Pratt

working dog said:


> Resurrecting this thread.
> 
> My piston seals were ready for changing as they had become hard. I had a set of the Cafelat seals so stripped the group, cleaned it all up and fitted the silicone seals.
> 
> First shot, the lever is biting really high (about 2 o'clock). Tried a second shot .... exactly the same.
> 
> Left it an hour - no change.
> 
> Its a pity as I suspect that if the seals were the right size (this seems to be the issue from earlier discussions in the thread) that the silicone would be a better alternative to the standard seal.
> 
> Ive now ordered a set of seals from LE and will be fitting them as soon as they arrive.
> 
> I'm glad I tried the alternative seals but wont be buying another cafelat seal
> 
> Will try and upload a video of the pull but its pretty much the same as dsc's


Sorry they did not work out for you. Just to confirm again that the seal dimensions are exactly the same as the rubber ones used by every company that uses that group for the past several years. As we do for all seals, I personally tested the seals for a year before committing to mass production. We have had a handful of people with issues now (with several thousand seals out the door) and we supply the exact same ones to 3 group machine manuf. using that group.

I had my own theory why there have been many many complaints about that group over the years using the rubber seals, the short story is the the piston design is lazy and the manufacturing tolerances are too big. To test that theory we made a few prototype silicone seals and it really did the trick, I think we sent some to Tom to test as well.

I will make a small adjustment to the seals for the next production run which will eliminate the few groups that have problems. The seals, well any lever group seals, should last years and require zero maintenance. No constant pulling the groups apart to lubricate is required. Once they are in they should be seen and not heard for many years.

Paul


----------



## The Systemic Kid

No problems with mine - grab is around 10 o'clock - better than the original Londinium seals.


----------



## grumpydaddy

Mine from Cafelat were lever high to begin with but were ~ 30° above horizontal after a week.

After I flushed and cleaned the whole machine following the contamination incident, the lever was close to vertical but has gradually come back to ~ 30°

I have a feeling that the group contains some air when this happens but as it bleeds out all is well


----------



## 4515

Further update.

Picking up in the tolerance / size point.

I'm struggling to understand how if two sets of Londinium seals give me a low grab point that the tolerance issue is with the group.

Anyhoo... that aside, I wrapped 4 turns of PTFE around the grooves for the seals. Big improvement. Not quite getting the volume of water and the low grab point that I have with the Londinium seals but its much better than it was without the PTFE. Its not an ideal solution but it works. @Paul Pratt I'd be happy to trial a set of the revised seals


----------



## dsc

Here's a video showing the grab point with the prototype Cafelat seals from Paul (kindly sent over by him to test):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5BZJG9nv3-eQ2t3Q09UZTFhd0E/view

I might've posted this before, but here it is again, this is the measurements done on my L1 :

Aod = 40.964mm, Aw = 8.05mm

Bod = 40.967mm, Bw = 8.02mm

Cod = 40.970mm, Cw = 8.02mm

Bore ID = 51.22mm - 52.23mm

[note: telescoping gauge was used for the bore ID, digimatic mic's where used for OD measurements, gauge blocks were used for seat width checks]

where:

#od - outside diameter of the seal seat

#w - width of the seal seat

A is the seat closest to the bottom of the piston

C is the seat furthest away from the bottom of the piston, right next to the spring

I've got no idea what the original Londinium seals are made to fit, so hard to guess why Cafelats don't work for some.

T.


----------



## 4515

Heres the grab point with the cafelat seals. Excuse the composition - I was pulling the lever and holding the phone to film


----------



## Thecatlinux

My seals and set point have been perfect since they were done by Patrick on the forum day , I am quite happy to drag my machine to the next forum day (if we have one ) so people can see how much has happened in a year , I suspect not a lot .


----------



## dsc

I've made a switch recently, going from Cafelat silicones back to L1 officials, few things I've noticed:

- silicone seals are really grabby, actually so grabby that I pulled out the entire inner sleeve from the chamber (it's a brass? sleeve which sits inside the main group chamber and has four holes on the bottom to deflect water). Afterwards I had to spend at least half an hour trying to pry the sleeve off the piston which wasn't fun

- new L1 seals seem harder to fit than previous rubber seals and also the silicone ones as they stretch less, so my usual method of sliding them down three wooden pegs didn't work and I had to revert to filling the grooves with strips of plastic (I've made a few and simply taped them in place) and pushing the seals past the grooves

- being less grabby they are definitely much easier to move inside the chamber than the silicone ones, the grab point went higher from what I can gather, but I don't really think it matters much (at least based on what Reiss said)

Curious if anyone else made the switch ? @working dog ?

T.


----------



## 4515

I still have the silicone seals in my L1. I will change them to the rubber seals when I remember to do them and the machine is cold. Currently I tend to remember when the machine is hot.

At the forum day I noticed that Sharkies L1P which has standard seals (I think) grabbed in a much gentler manner than mine with the silicone seals.

I'll put the rubber seals at the side of the L1 and try to remember to replace them.

Will feed back on my findings.


----------



## Paul Pratt

dsc said:


> I've made a switch recently, going from Cafelat silicones back to L1 officials, few things I've noticed:
> 
> - silicone seals are really grabby, actually so grabby that I pulled out the entire inner sleeve from the chamber (it's a brass? sleeve which sits inside the main group chamber and has four holes on the bottom to deflect water). Afterwards I had to spend at least half an hour trying to pry the sleeve off the piston which wasn't fun
> 
> - new L1 seals seem harder to fit than previous rubber seals and also the silicone ones as they stretch less, so my usual method of sliding them down three wooden pegs didn't work and I had to revert to filling the grooves with strips of plastic (I've made a few and simply taped them in place) and pushing the seals past the grooves
> 
> - being less grabby they are definitely much easier to move inside the chamber than the silicone ones, the grab point went higher from what I can gather, but I don't really think it matters much (at least based on what Reiss said)
> 
> Curious if anyone else made the switch ? @working dog ?
> 
> T.


Tom you have the extra large sample seals which I sent to you not the regular ones.

Anyway I nailed down the issue with the group and we have had a few people testing new pistons over the past few months and the findings are great. No need for any special seals or anything. I'll just give them a few more weeks in the field before calling the issue of the dodgy lever groups solved for good.

FYI silicone seals do not like too much grease, just a light sheen is all that is required. And above all else it must be silicone grease, not petroleum based greases or very gummy greases. Dow 111 is what I recommend.


----------



## dsc

The large sample seals you've sent through Paul are the same thickness as the new original L1s, so I reckon the only difference is material and perhaps profile.

As for silicone, I used whatever came with the seal packs, I think it was small packets of DOW111. I applied a thin film and all worked fine until it was time to get them out.

Overall I might be thick but I don't really get the whole seal issue. Surely some slack in the grooves will simply mean slightly less water from the group? Or am I missing something?

T.


----------



## 4515

OK.... Replaced the seals last night.

The piston took some jiggling to get it out of the group - tighter than many engineering comparisons - most of which are not suitable for the forum. Removed the silicone seals no problem. They are still in great condition.

Replaced with the LE seals and I found the same as @dsc - the rubber seals do appear to be harder than the last ones I replaced previously.

Re-assembled and tested this morning. The grab point is much lower than that I had with the silicone seals - I'd say that 3 to 4g of coffee was dispensed before the lever reached the grab point with the silicone seals. Not sure if this makes a difference to the pressure profile - I guess that it must as the spring is less compressed when the grab point is reached with the silicone seals.

Grab feels much more positive - the feedback is far better.

My thoughts. I like the idea of the silicone seals - less degradation should mean that they need replacing less often.

Dodgy group vs dodgy seals. I don't know enough to comment on this as I don't know the tolerance in the bore diameter and the variance of the groups in use. All I can say is that the LE seals work better in my machine. @Paul Pratt could you elaborate on your findings and the required fix


----------



## johnealey

I have one set of new Londinium (LE) seals on one group and 1 set of the cafelat silicon seals bought via @dsc group buy. I find there is no difference in use when lightly greased with Loxeal No4 but do find that the LE ones start to "judder" earlier than the cafelat ones thus prompting an earlier re greasing (am not noticing any earlier or later grab side to side on the L2).

I too found the new LE ones much stiffer and had a real battle getting them on compared to the cafelat ones which were a doddle in comparison.

I also have managed to pull the liner out twice now, first time having a panic moment till put it back in group and put lever vertical, came out ok leaving the liner in place. This last time was with the lever vertical and on both occasions was the group with the LE seals on

Hope of help

John


----------



## mathof

I'm curious how much, if any, difference it makes to the taste if the lever grabs much earlier than around 45 degrees from the vertical. Has anyone ever dialled-in a bean for a boiler-pressure pre-infusion L1 and then dialled in the same bean for a side-by-side comparison with an L1-P or L1-R with a pre-infusion pressure of about 3 bar to find out?

Matt


----------



## Paul Pratt

working dog said:


> OK.... Replaced the seals last night.
> 
> The piston took some jiggling to get it out of the group - tighter than many engineering comparisons - most of which are not suitable for the forum. Removed the silicone seals no problem. They are still in great condition.
> 
> Replaced with the LE seals and I found the same as @dsc - the rubber seals do appear to be harder than the last ones I replaced previously.
> 
> Re-assembled and tested this morning. The grab point is much lower than that I had with the silicone seals - I'd say that 3 to 4g of coffee was dispensed before the lever reached the grab point with the silicone seals. Not sure if this makes a difference to the pressure profile - I guess that it must as the spring is less compressed when the grab point is reached with the silicone seals.
> 
> Grab feels much more positive - the feedback is far better.
> 
> My thoughts. I like the idea of the silicone seals - less degradation should mean that they need replacing less often.
> 
> Dodgy group vs dodgy seals. I don't know enough to comment on this as I don't know the tolerance in the bore diameter and the variance of the groups in use. All I can say is that the LE seals work better in my machine. @Paul Pratt could you elaborate on your findings and the required fix


More details hopefully next week. I am not sure I want to get involved with people changing pistons. I can manufacture nice new style pistons in brass or stainless steel but fitting it involves removing the old piston and spring which might be a bit too much to ask for people at home.

The whole point of the silicone is not about sealing properties or shot quality, just purely from a cleanliness point of view. No smell or taste from the silicone and it always stays soft.


----------



## dsc

I've got a much higher grab point with the new LE seals, but apparently that's normal (this is coming straight from Reiss).

Personally I can't really see the grab point can make such a massive difference on some machines. Yes the old seals where lower than the grooves, but we are not talking massive differences, it was perhaps 1-2mm tops? I also can't see the grab point changes making such a big difference on the amount of water pushed through the group, unless it all boils down to pressure profile difference? Would love it if someone could go into more detail and explain why the grab point should be as low as possible or why the pistons / groups are so very dodgy when the point changes.

Has anyone actually made measurements of the puck pressure with different seals installed?

T.


----------



## Paul Pratt

dsc said:


> I've got a much higher grab point with the new LE seals, but apparently that's normal (this is coming straight from Reiss).
> 
> Personally I can't really see the grab point can make such a massive difference on some machines. Yes the old seals where lower than the grooves, but we are not talking massive differences, it was perhaps 1-2mm tops? I also can't see the grab point changes making such a big difference on the amount of water pushed through the group, unless it all boils down to pressure profile difference? Would love it if someone could go into more detail and explain why the grab point should be as low as possible or why the pistons / groups are so very dodgy when the point changes.
> 
> Has anyone actually made measurements of the puck pressure with different seals installed?
> 
> T.


Hi Tom I am not sure we are on the same page. The issue with the groups is the phenomenon known as "lever slipping". I've never experienced that myself or been able to replicate it but have seen videos of it so know that it is a real problem. A quick google reveals these threads for example...

https://londiniumespresso.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=821

https://londiniumespresso.com/forum?catid=37&id=1068&view=topic






This is obviously not normal behaviour and as I has said numerous times not what you would expect from a lever group at all. That is why I have said the groups are dodgy, some work some do not. Some work sometimes and the fault is intermittent. Larger jumbo piston seals are an attempt to make them seal better. Workarounds have included over lubricating the seals, taking them apart on a frequent basis, higher pre-infusion pressure etc.. again not normal at all. The seals should be an item you lubricate once, install and forget about them for years.

The lever catch is something that is certainly related to the seals, but also related to standard factors such as grind setting, coffee dosage, water flow and pre-infusion.

Why is the biting point of the lever important? because it will determine the volume of the shot and the extraction pressure. If it is biting too high up then you will most probably get a low volume shot and probably at the back end of the pressure profile. If it bites at the horizontal then you will get a longer shot and also get a larger pressure hump - up to the max and down again.

The barista would usually learn to understand which combination of the above factors work for them and get the shot volume, time and biting point they prefer. But nnyway the key is that it is consistent and people are not getting that.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but the user experience is not as good as it could be. The fact that there are so many threads on so many forums about lever catches, slipping and seals is quite ridiculous. They should be an item never even mentioned apart from every few years or so.


----------



## dsc

Thanks Paul, I forgot about the lever slipping issue focusing mostly on the grab point.

Any ideas what the grab point should be to provide the "correct" pressure profile? I'm guessing a Scace device would show what happens to the pressure during a shot, but those are not easy to get (my diy one doesn't offer the correct "puck" resistance to actually simulate a shot).

I'm not super crazy about the fact that piston slack / seals can change the overall behaviour of the machine. It probably wouldn't matter much if it was 9bar vs 8.5 bar pressure at the start with a reclining profile, but if it's 9bar vs 6bar for example, then you have two very different brews imho.

T.


----------



## dsc

After using the machine for a month or so now I'll probably be going back to the Cafelat ones. Currently with the thicker L1s I get hardly any grab at all, the lever is uber light until even past 45deg and I'm getting very thin brews out of the machine.

T.


----------



## arellim

I'm currently in the 'frustrated stage' of lever ownership.

My (now 6 month old) 'new' LE seals started to leak.

Bought the Cafelat ones- major slippage. Tried ptfe- now a massive 'jump'.

So £70 later and I have another set of new LE ones on there way ( £8+ on postage is mad).

Tempted to be a new machine I'm that annoyed/bored/disappointed.

andy


----------



## holdtheonions

arellim said:


> IÂ'm currently in the Â'frustrated stageÂ' of lever ownership.
> 
> My (now 6 month old) Â'newÂ' LE seals started to leak.
> 
> Bought the Cafelat ones- major slippage. Tried ptfe- now a massive Â'jumpÂ'.
> 
> So Â£70 later and I have another set of new LE ones on there way ( Â£8+ on postage is mad).
> 
> Tempted to be a new machine IÂ'm that annoyed/bored/disappointed.
> 
> andy


If you are desperate, you might read this thread here https://www.home-barista.com/levers/londinium-piston-modification-t53734.html I drilled my piston on 9/1, which has so far has completely eliminated my slipping problem. I am using the cafelat seals. No adverse effects I can cipher, but apparently my holes were too big, so maybe start smaller and go bigger as necessary if you try it.


----------



## arellim

holdtheonions said:


> If you are desperate, you might read this thread here https://www.home-barista.com/levers/londinium-piston-modification-t53734.html I drilled my piston on 9/1, which has so far has completely eliminated my slipping problem. I am using the cafelat seals. No adverse effects I can cipher, but apparently my holes were too big, so maybe start smaller and go bigger as necessary if you try it.


i did read that yesterday- thanks. I thought you mentioned some adverse affects to the holes too?

As a last ditch effort last night I wrapped (6wraps) around the bottom seal of PTFE tape before reassembling. A little better but not okay.

What isn't okay (to me) is the news to spend £50+ on seals twice a year.


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## dsc

arellim said:


> I'm currently in the 'frustrated stage' of lever ownership.
> 
> My (now 6 month old) 'new' LE seals started to leak.
> 
> Bought the Cafelat ones- major slippage. Tried ptfe- now a massive 'jump'.
> 
> So £70 later and I have another set of new LE ones on there way ( £8+ on postage is mad).
> 
> Tempted to be a new machine I'm that annoyed/bored/disappointed.
> 
> andy


That is mad, have you talked to Reiss to see if this can be somehow fixed / resolved? Two days ago I've taken the original LE jumbo seals off my L1 and they were such a bitch to remove (and put on a year or so ago) I don't envy anyone doing this regularly. Cafelat does a "jumbo" version in silicone as well which might help?

T.


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## arellim

dsc said:


> That is mad, have you talked to Reiss to see if this can be somehow fixed / resolved? Two days ago I've taken the original LE jumbo seals off my L1 and they were such a bitch to remove (and put on a year or so ago) I don't envy anyone doing this regularly. Cafelat does a "jumbo" version in silicone as well which might help?
> 
> T.


No- which is probably the really efficient way to resolve this (I personally have found him nothing but really helpful).

I *think* Cafelat no longer sell the jumbo seals. From my hours of random reading, it is actually the increased height of the new LE seals that make them better. I just much prefer the idea of the silicon (not to mention how much easier they are to install). The PF gasket/seal in itself was worth the imported seals from the US (almost).

New seals arrive today.

I did video my second espresso of the day this morning (after the first one slipped). Guess what...absolutely perfect...!!

Andy


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## dsc

Have a chat with Reiss, he might have some suggestion on how to resolve this as it's mad to be swapping seals so often or suffering from slippage. I always thought that it must be down to manufacturing tolerances on the piston and the fact that the factory was simply sloppy, but there might as well be another explanation to why this is happening.

T.


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## holdtheonions

arellim said:


> i did read that yesterday- thanks. I thought you mentioned some adverse affects to the holes too?


The only adverse affect came from initially having the piston holes aligned with the sleeve holes, which caused water to shoot down through the piston holes and create severe channeling. The channeling stopped once I rotated the sleeve so the two sets of holes weren't aligned. I can't vouch whether it is a long-term solution though. For example, I wrapped the piston with teflon and that solved the problem for a time as well.


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## mathof

When you say the seals began to leak, do you mean from the bottom of the group when you pull a shot? If so, the source of the leak is probably the group gasket which holds the shower screen in place. These become ineffective long before the piston gaskets need replacing.

Matt



arellim said:


> I'm currently in the 'frustrated stage' of lever ownership.
> 
> My (now 6 month old) 'new' LE seals started to leak.
> 
> Bought the Cafelat ones- major slippage. Tried ptfe- now a massive 'jump'.
> 
> So £70 later and I have another set of new LE ones on there way ( £8+ on postage is mad).
> 
> Tempted to be a new machine I'm that annoyed/bored/disappointed.
> 
> andy


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## arellim

mathof said:


> When you say the seals began to leak, do you mean from the bottom of the group when you pull a shot? If so, the source of the leak is probably the group gasket which holds the shower screen in place. These become ineffective long before the piston gaskets need replacing.
> 
> Matt


No (although I have had that and I would agree with your solution).

Leak from where the lever mechanism attaches to the chamber body.

10 coffees in with Cafelet seals and so far...so good! New LE seals arrived yesterday and are just sitting there like the super eager bench reserve!

Andy


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## Grahamg

I've just changed over to cafelat seals - I needed to change seals anyway and fancied longer life of silicone - everything is good but it got me wondering what people are doing to get larger shot volumes. I'm dosing 17g into a, 18g VST basket and struggle to get past 34g output without flow having been reduced to the dripping, it's not a problem for the regular med/dark roast but I can't help but think more is needed when I try other beans. Do you all just tend to do a double pull to top up the chamber earlier in the shot like coffeechap's 50+g shot video of a few years back?


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## dsc

How long is your preinfusion? I noticed that if I pull very tight shots which take ages to come out I get lower volumes.

T.


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## coffeechap

Use a 15g VST on an olde gen L1


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## Snakehips

Grahamg said:


> I've just changed over to cafelat seals - I needed to change seals anyway and fancied longer life of silicone - everything is good but it got me wondering what people are doing to get larger shot volumes. I'm dosing 17g into a, 18g VST basket and struggle to get past 34g output without flow having been reduced to the dripping, it's not a problem for the regular med/dark roast but I can't help but think more is needed when I try other beans. Do you all just tend to do a double pull to top up the chamber earlier in the shot like coffeechap's 50+g shot video of a few years back?


Hi Graham, I'm not sure that many Londinium 1 (2016) owners will be playing around with double pulls.

As you probably know, the maximum shot volume is primarily a function of the inlet water pressure to the cylinder. The greater the pressure the more the air at the head of the cylinder is compressed thus increasing the volume of water loaded. Inlet pressure with the old L1 is at boiler pressure of about 1.2Bar as I recall. 50g shots are readily achieved on the L-R if it's variable, pumped inlet pressure is set towards it's top end of 3.5bar.


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## Grahamg

No more than 10 seconds pre-infusion, normally get the boiler element to kick in so that pressure's at around 1.4bar when I pull the lever to fill the group. Makes sense to get a 15 to use given the constraints.


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## dsc

I can fairly easily pull 50g shots using a 15g VST on an older L1, although I typically set the grinder to produce drips after 5-6sec of preinfusion.

T.


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## Grahamg

I think I'm struggling switching beans in my head with the required change of approach in terms of grind and output, the 'stock bean' approach too deeply ingrained!


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## aaronb

Grahamg said:


> I've just changed over to cafelat seals - I needed to change seals anyway and fancied longer life of silicone - everything is good but it got me wondering what people are doing to get larger shot volumes. I'm dosing 17g into a, 18g VST basket and struggle to get past 34g output without flow having been reduced to the dripping, it's not a problem for the regular med/dark roast but I can't help but think more is needed when I try other beans. Do you all just tend to do a double pull to top up the chamber earlier in the shot like coffeechap's 50+g shot video of a few years back?


I always drink lighter roasts and tend to dose between 18g and 19g in an IMS basket on a 1st Gen L1 and can easily get around 40g out. Short preinfusion, with blonding occurring around 30 seconds in. If volume starts to decrease it means it's time to lube the seals or change them.

This is all with the Londinium custom seals not sure how the silicone ones affect it but it definitely is possible.


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## Grahamg

Are you plumbed in? I got caught up reading a home barista thread that seemed to imply that would make a difference given the mains input pressure.


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## aaronb

Grahamg said:


> Are you plumbed in? I got caught up reading a home barista thread that seemed to imply that would make a difference given the mains input pressure.


Nope tank fed.


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## Grahamg

Cheers, I suspect it was a pure cylinder space issue. Was having issues with the usual med/dark roast which fills the basket higher than most other beans I've tried. Dropped dose to 16g and changed to a med roast, and no problem getting higher output before flow breaks into drips. 15g basket just arrived anyway though so will use that when I'm getting adventurous with lighter roasts.


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## evoman

Sorry to be late to the game - I have done a horrible job of keeping up with the necessary coffee related reading in recent months! I decided this week to do a big service of my L1 and I am a little unsure of some details. There is a nice youtube video with details on how to replace the gaskets on the piston, but I am not sure how obvious it will be that they need to be replaced. I know it needs service because water is leaking around the seals, and I assume it is not just a need for grease on the piston.

Also, I see discussions here of different versions of the piston gaskets. I ordered a set of three from Londinium yesterday and am interested in hearing whether there are better options out there so I can keep that in mind for next time. I see the links to the Cafelat silicone versions, but don't know how they compare to the current ones sold by Londinium (or are they the same - I saw the comments that Londinium would change the seals they use, and I see these are blue like the silicone ones from Cafelat, but nowhere do I see a statement of what the Londinium ones are made of).

I am also wondering what other parts I should service when I take it apart? My intention is to replace the three seals/gaskets on the group and to replace the screen with the IMS one they suggest. I'll probably also pop on a new portafilter gasket since the current one feels like it is starting to get stiff.

I am also interested in any other how-to guides out there. The A4 sheets that form the manual I got with my machine don't provide much info. I see links that suggest that there are other guides on the Londinium site, but despite having an account it doesn't seem to recognise me as an owner. I could bother to get that changed, but I am not sure it is worth doing since I don't know how much potentially useful info I might be missing. So any info would be greatly appreciated!


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## mathof

I find the Londinium site very helpful, particularly the posts by Reiss (the creator of the machines).


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## aaronb

It's easy to get scared servicing the machine but a lot of it is common sense. Lots of advice here and on the Londinium site and Reiss is always punctual with good helpful advice if you need him.

How long have you had it / has it been since you last changed the seals? Give them a prod and see if they are springy or feel really hard and rigid. If water is leaking they need replacing though, as you already said! Not sure what the new ones are made of, they look and feel like the older ones but thicker and better.

Cant thing of anything else that needs doing at the same time really, obviously give everything a good clean and lube.


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## Jollybean

The website is really useful. Just PM Reiss and let him have details of your L1 and I'm sure he will give you full access. Reiss does provide excellent support if you have any issues.


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## PPapa

So I am in a position to change the piston seals as it's soon-to-be one year anniversary for my LR. I do have a set of both Londinium seals and Cafelat silicone seals. Shall I got for the silicone? The Londinium seals were fine, although it looks like it slips a bit now since the total weight dropped a tiny bit.

I didn't get on with the silicone portafilter gasket as I managed to slice it within few weeks, but I ordered a set of 3 to give another go.


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## dsc

How did you manage to slice the silicone gasket?

As for piston seals I definitely prefer silicone ones when putting them on, it's a massive ballache putting rubber ones on as they have almost no give (especially true for L1 jumbo seals which are uber tough).

T.


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## mathof

PPapa said:


> So I am in a position to change the piston seals as it's soon-to-be one year anniversary for my LR. I do have a set of both Londinium seals and Cafelat silicone seals. Shall I got for the silicone? The Londinium seals were fine, although it looks like it slips a bit now since the total weight dropped a tiny bit.
> 
> I didn't get on with the silicone portafilter gasket as I managed to slice it within few weeks, but I ordered a set of 3 to give another go.


 I had been using the Londinium seals until about six months ago when I decided (based on wear) that it was time for a changeover. I installed the Cafelate silicone seals and I've not had a bit of trouble with them. But then, I had no trouble with the Londinium ones either. The silicone ones are much easier to mount.


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## PPapa

mathof said:


> I had been using the Londinium seals until about six months ago when I decided (based on wear) that it was time for a changeover. I installed the Cafelate silicone seals and I've not had a bit of trouble with them. But then, I had no trouble with the Londinium ones either. The silicone ones are much easier to mount.


Yeah, the mounting is what I'm kind of suspecting to be the biggest difference. Is the grab, lever smoothness or anything less changed?

I have three seals sitting around, so I might as well try them!



dsc said:


> How did you manage to slice the silicone gasket?
> 
> As for piston seals I definitely prefer silicone ones when putting them on, it's a massive ballache putting rubber ones on as they have almost no give (especially true for L1 jumbo seals which are uber tough).
> 
> T.












Slicing might not be the right word, but I looked up the photo history and it looks like it happened within 8 days. Might have been a defective one from the start?


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## dsc

PPapa said:


> Slicing might not be the right word, but I looked up the photo history and it looks like it happened within 8 days. Might have been a defective one from the start?


Yup looks like it was marked with something sharp or some sort of internal defect?

T.


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## PPapa

dsc said:


> Yup looks like it was marked with something sharp or some sort of internal defect?
> 
> T.


The only things it's seen was coffee and portafilter... so not sure!


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## mathof

PPapa said:


> Yeah, the mounting is what I'm kind of suspecting to be the biggest difference. Is the grab, lever smoothness or anything less changed?
> 
> I have three seals sitting around, so I might as well try them!


 I don't think it's possible to say which set is on the piston without taking it out of the group. I've not noticed any difference in performance.


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## dsc

There's definitely a huge difference between Cafelat and L1 jumbo seals, but it's most likely mostly because the jumbos are so oversized.

T.


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## mathof

dsc said:


> There's definitely a huge difference between Cafelat and L1 jumbo seals, but it's most likely mostly because the jumbos are so oversized.
> 
> T.


 They are certainly different to look at or to mount, but do you notice any difference in performance or longevity?


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## dsc

The jumbos just make the lever super sticky and harder to move, not sure how that affects the whole group, if wear and tear is accelerated - no idea. The movement is much smoother with the silicone ones that's for sure. From what I gather the grab point was lower with the jumbos, so it does affect how much water the piston grabs I think, but it wasn's anything massive from what I remember.

T.


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## mathof

dsc said:


> The jumbos just make the lever super sticky and harder to move, not sure how that affects the whole group, if wear and tear is accelerated - no idea. The movement is much smoother with the silicone ones that's for sure. From what I gather the grab point was lower with the jumbos, so it does affect how much water the piston grabs I think, but it wasn's anything massive from what I remember.
> 
> T.


 Thanks for your reply. I have the silicone ones in at the moment, but I don't recall that the jumbos which I had in previously made the lever sticky or harder to move. Or the the grab point was different. But maybe I recall wrongly. It's been at least six months on the new ones, and by the time I changed the jumbos they were showing definite signs of wear, particularly the bottom seal (so I'm left with comparing new silicones with my fading memory of old jumbos).


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## dsc

I seem to remember the grab point being slightly different, but just like yourself it's a fading memory ;D

T.


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## PPapa

Doesn't it change over time due to stuff building up and thinning lube?

It feels like the grab point on mine changed over time. I cleaned and relubed piston half a year ago (ish) and the seals are now just about a year old. My gut feeling is that I'm getting less water through now.


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## dsc

Possible, mine's currently hit and miss, sometimes I get big jumps of the piston, so I need to swap them again.

T.


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