# Moving from pre-ground to freshly-ground. Difficulties.



## Jeb (Apr 16, 2015)

Hi all,

I have a standard un-modded Gaggia Classic - a few months old. Using a 15g VST basket with 15g of coffee, with the standard portafilter. 58mm Knock tamper. Weighing the doses with an electric scale (0.1g)

For the last couple of weeks I have been using pre-ground coffee from a great little artisan roasters in the city. This offered a huge improvement over the supermarket coffee I was using before. Immediately I began getting pretty decent 25-30 second extractions. I continued like this for a little while and enjoyed the results, knowing things could be improved if I was grinding my own.

I decided to go for a hand-grinder first and bought the Rhinowares hand-grinder. I got a big bag of the same coffee I had been using before, this time in bean form. I set the Rhino to the finest setting, dosed the usual 15g and tamped the same way I usually do - a levelling tamp, then a harder one. At the finest setting it choked the Gaggia completely.

Setting it one-click coarser, the pour was really bad and very quick - under 10 seconds for a double. and VERY frothy - probably 50% froth.

I experimented with different doses and tamps and tamping a lot harder does reduce the flow marginally but its still so quick and frothy and bubbly!

I left it all alone for 2-3 days and this morning found that at 1 click, instead of gushing it near as totally choked the machine again. Moving it another click coarser I'm finding that with the same technique etc, the pour is more normal - probably around 18 seconds, starting nice and slowly but still getting thick and frothy very quickly.

Could coffee beans that are too fresh (I was using them on the day of roasting first time, and now still only 3 days from roasting) account for a frothy 10 second gusher and the way the pour time seems to be changing ? Or does it just sound like my technique/grind is inconsistent? :- /

Jeb.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

Very fresh beans contain quite a lot of CO2 and this will be released into your espresso thus the frothiness. As you "rest" the beans the CO2 is released (hence the one way valves on the bags). I'm not sure that it makes it faster. My results (and I am only a n00b) are best 7 days after the roast for expresso. For brewing, its not so important.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hi are you still using fresh roasted beans ?

The rhino doesn't have a great deal of flexibility in adjustment , and it isn't terribly consistent for espresso, so you may have to alter your dose/tamps between the hole setting and the gush setting to get a decent flow rate.

So if choking perhaps dose less and or tamp less

If at gushing perhaps dose more or tap harder

Of course this is basket size permitting

What dose are you using in what basket btw...

Really long term you need a better grinder...


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Your grinder will struggle to produce consistent grind for espresso so it will be more challenging to dial in. Fresh beans won't have de-gassed sufficiently if you are using them close to roast date. When the brew water hits the grinds,mthe CO2 released interferes with the extraction by creating back pressure. Leave the beans to naturally de-gas for five or six days.


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## Jeb (Apr 16, 2015)

Thanks guys. I will definitely bear that in mind. I'd heard about the CO2 thing but because I'd changed 2 variables - suddenly going to fresh beans AND using a hand-grinder it's been difficult to diagnose. Then when the same setting that gushed frothy yesterday choked the machine this morning, I just didn't know what to make of it - can the grind from the Rhino really be that inconsistent? . I'll see what it's like in the next couple of days, I guess.

I'm wondering if its perhaps that as well as the beans being extra fresh, the Rhinowares is less forgiving of my newbie and probably somewhat inconsistent techniques.

I'm definitely considering a proper grinder. Probably the Mignon or the Vario will be the two obvious choices in my budget. Although I admire the build and the aesthetics of the mignon more, I'm leaning more towards the Vario because I imagine it will be cleaner and less mess on the whole.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

You'll see a big improvement with a Vario or Mignon.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

How's the rest of your prep?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Getting the degree of fineness in the grind is crucial for making espresso. The better the grinder, the more even will be the grind meaning that the size of the particles in each ground dose will be more consistently the same size. This is the Holy Grail in grinder technology. Small particle size - fines - extract more quickly and fully than larger particle sizes known as boulders. If you look closely at a dose from your Rhino - you'll see the variation in particle size. A dose with loads of fines will bias the flavour towards the bitter elements in coffee. That's why it's always a good idea to spend as much as you can on a grinder.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

you have a vst basket which needs a good consistent fine grind ( finer than other stock baskets ) and a grinder which isnt capable of doing it to the degree required...

Try the gusher setting at 16 g and tamp a bit harder

or try the choke setting at 14 g

does either make it better ?


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## Jeb (Apr 16, 2015)

My Prep:

1.Switch on Gaggia for anywhere between 15mins to 30 mins.

2. weigh 15g of beans into the Rhino hopper and grind

3. Remove portafilter, wipe dry and tip ground coffee directly in. Couple of good taps of the bottom of the portafilter on the table to try and level it out.

4. Levelling tamp with the thumb and finger close to tamper rim to feel for a good level with the basket.

5. Harder tamp, trying to get elbow to 90 and go straight down.

6. Flush group-head with water and wipe dry.

7. Insert portafilter and hit Go.

I experimented with different types of pre-tamp distribution, ranging from None, to Tapping, to finger-distribution, to taking a fine-ended chopstick and swirling it around. They did all result in slight changes in the pour (chopstick technique was the best) but nothing really seems to get me between choke and volcano like froth.

I'm sure a Mignon or Vario would help a lot. Maybe I'm being too hard on myself - I think I tend to err on the side of blaming my technique - "you don't deserve a Vario, you can't even master the Rhino!".


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dont blame yourself , your trying to make espresso with a grinder that in truth isnt really up to it ....

Your just making your life harder by trying to master something that isn't primarily designed to great at espresso


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## Jeb (Apr 16, 2015)

Thanks Guys that's all really helpful. I still have 400g or so of beans. I will experiment with the changes to dose and tamp force that you suggested and see if I can hit a middle-ground that gives me some good results. If I don't see any results, I'll probably switch back to buying regular and small amounts of the roaster's pre-ground coffee until I'm ready to get the Vario or the Mignon.

It's a journey!


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Jeb, I'm speaking from experience and and you'll hear it from others, be patient with yourself as you learn new skills and certainly be patient with the beans. Of course you deserve a Vario or Mignon (why do you think the Vario causes less mess, by the way). Sometimes you just have to sleep on it and return to a basic procedure.


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## Jeb (Apr 16, 2015)

Phil104 said:


> Jeb, I'm speaking from experience and and you'll hear it from others, be patient with yourself as you learn new skills and certainly be patient with the beans. Of course you deserve a Vario or Mignon (why do you think the Vario causes less mess, by the way). Sometimes you just have to sleep on it and return to a basic procedure.


Hi Phil - thanks for the encouragement, and you're so right: learning and making all the mistakes is what makes a solid foundation for any new skill.

Regarding the Vario/Mignon I was under the impression that the Mignon had a tendency to fling the grounds around a bit and miss the portafilter and that it also required a greater degree of pre-tamp distribution due to a certain amount of clumping?

I'm not sold on either one yet, and as I mentioned, I much prefer the look/build of the Mignon and I wouldn't need the versatility in grinding options that the Vario has. I guess my ultimate goal is to do as little as possible to the coffee to keep the whole process natural and fluid - grind, tamp and go, so whichever offers the neatest, cleanest most efficient experience would probably get my vote.

Do you favour the Mignon?


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Jeb said:


> Hi Phil - thanks for the encouragement, and you're so right: learning and making all the mistakes is what makes a solid foundation for any new skill.
> 
> Regarding the Vario/Mignon I was under the impression that the Mignon had a tendency to fling the grounds around a bit and miss the portafilter and that it also required a greater degree of pre-tamp distribution due to a certain amount of clumping?
> 
> ...


I used a Mignon (after a Hario Slim) until very recently. I used to grind into a yoghurt pot - so no grinds flying about although I don't think they do anyway - and then i would stir the grinds in the pot to break up any clumps and generally distribute the grinds, which is what you are doing already with your current prep. I have never found it excessive. I can't speak for the Vario - other than the Mignon seems to edge the Vario on reliability. There is a good comparative review on Bella Barista and a lot of information about both on the forum.

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/compactgrinder1closerlookv3.pdf

I was having a real head in hands moment a few weeks ago - and was supportively talked through it by forum members.

There's a point when it all works again and is worthwhile - that nectar in the cup.


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## Jeb (Apr 16, 2015)

Okay cool, thank you for info I will investigate the Mignon/Vario a little bit further! Did you find there was any issue with grind-retention with the Mignon?

This is definitely a very helpful place - I don't think i've ever received so many informative and real-time replies on any other forum!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I'd probably suggest going back to the stock basket with the grinder you have and see if you better results. VST are quite fussy and that grinder isn't really geared up for espresso with a VST.

I'd rate the Mignon over the Vario. There are other options if you're prepared to go down the ex commercial grinder route.


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## Jeb (Apr 16, 2015)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I'd probably suggest going back to the stock basket with the grinder you have and see if you better results. VST are quite fussy and that grinder isn't really geared up for espresso with a VST.
> 
> I'd rate the Mignon over the Vario. There are other options if you're prepared to go down the ex commercial grinder route.


Thanks! Hmm yes I did wonder about the basket. My Gaggia only came with the pressurised baskets. Maybe its worth me getting a stock-double unpressurised in the meantime. I thought the Rhino would be a good stepping stone from quality pre-ground to a serious grinder, but now it seems like a step backwards for where my technique is at. I must add that otherwise its a really lovely grinder to use, very quick and minimal effort/mess. I'm sure it would be excellent for other types of brew method.

Mignon sounds like it might be calling my name! cheaper than the Vario too.


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## Jeb (Apr 16, 2015)

Hi guys: Still no luck with the Rhino so far so still just trying to nail down the grinder-choice.

If the following were my criteria (besides a grind quality that is at a good level for my Gaggia Classic):

1. Make one double espresso per day.

2. grind directly into the portafilter,

3. Calibrate/Set the timer only once for each new type of bean to avoid weighing/dosing every time

4. do the least amount of distribution/stirring (ideally nothing but a few taps on the portafilter and tamp)

5. Not have to do a big clean-up of stray grinds at the end of every coffee

would you say that - regardless of inferior build quality, the Vario has the edge? I understand the Mignon is built for longevity, but for 1 double a day, will this matter?

I'm interested in coffee and enjoying the journey, but not sure I want to go too far with the weighing/distribution etc.

Thanks for your thoughts, much appreciated.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Couple of good taps of the bottom of the portafilter on the table to try and level

Would suggest you remove this part, maybe just one light tap to settle the grinds, but two 'good' taps may be too much!

I level the grinds, then give it a light downward tap on the mat, i have noticed this helps with my IMS basket.


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## Jeb (Apr 16, 2015)

Thanks froggystyle - I'll keep that in mind! the least I need to do to the coffee the better







I guess that's why i'm leaning towards the Vario since the Mignon grind looks like it needs more attention.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Are you thinking of buying the vario new?


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Jeb said:


> a frothy 10 second gusher


Surprised Daren (naughty one) or Rhys haven't popped in yet and commented on this!


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Just a comment on your criteria, "Calibrate/Set the timer only once for each new type of bean to avoid weighing/dosing every time"

You state only 1 double shot per day, why restrict yourself to not weighing, many members including me, weigh the dose and the output just as a matter of course. Fit it into your routine and after a few days it becomes just part of what your do, accuracy and consistency matters as it rules out variables.

Ian


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## Jeb (Apr 16, 2015)

Thanks Eyedee: Just trying to keep it as quick and simple as possible I guess - the accurate timer on the Vario seemed like it would eliminate the need to weigh altogether once calibrated correctly. Although this is conjecture since I've never used one before. I'll definitely keep in mind what you have said, though.

froggystyle - yes was thinking of a new Vario or a new Mignon.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

The timer is nice and you can get it near enough, but i would not be rely on it.

I ran some test with a full hopper, it varied by a couple of grams each side of the desire output, on my E10 i can get anywhere between 19-20g with 2 x 2 seconds doses, again that 1g can make a difference.

Scales are dirt cheap from Ebay, weighing is key!

Have you considered 2nd hand Mazzer? Not as kitchen friendly as the mignon or vario.


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## Jeb (Apr 16, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> The timer is nice and you can get it near enough, but i would not be rely on it.
> 
> I ran some test with a full hopper, it varied by a couple of grams each side of the desire output, on my E10 i can get anywhere between 19-20g with 2 x 2 seconds doses, again that 1g can make a difference.
> 
> ...


Okay cool, I will bear that in mind - I already have some scales - was hoping they would just be a training aid, but perhaps should just become part of the routine, as you say.

I did consider a 2nd hand Mazzer - fantastic looking machines but maybe a little big for my living space.

Thanks!


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