# Grinder for Brewed.



## Outlaw333

Hi Guys,

I'm having an absolute nightmare trying to decide on/find a grinder for brewed coffee only.

I like the idea of a Vario equipped with the metal 'brew only' burrs but I'm looking to spend as little as possible and I can't find a decent source of second hand Varios anywhere, I know the odd one comes up but i need to save a little money first. Also I know the Mahlkonig Vario is the same as the Baratza Vario in america but will the Baratza burrs fit a UK Mahlkonig?

If I can find somewhere in my house to hide a Ditting then I will save the £400-500 for a reconditioned one, i just need something to tie me over until then.

In a world obsessed with grinding for a decent espresso, it seems a home grinder with a decent course setting(minimal fines) is rarer than rocking horse sh*t!


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## lookseehear

My Baratza Maestro + does a reasonable job. Not perfect but takes up a lot less space than a ditting!


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## Outlaw333

lookseehear said:


> My Baratza Maestro + does a reasonable job. Not perfect but takes up a lot less space than a ditting!


Thanks, A quick scout seems to reveal that this would be probably my best option.


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## fatboyslim

Also Baratza Preciso









Less fines than the Vario, proven!


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## Outlaw333

fatboyslim said:


> Also Baratza Preciso
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Less fines than the Vario, proven!


Ah yes but If I got the Vario, I would be doing this mod.. http://www.home-barista.com/brewing/baratzas-new-vario-burrs-for-non-espresso-brew-only-t21098.html

Check it out, they sound amazing! Thumbs up from David Walsh among others, has to stand for something!


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## Outlaw333

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!! This is sooooooooo irritating, Damn you David Faulkner, I was happy with espresso, the odd crap V60 or Aeropress brew and enjoying the fact I had no real lust for new or upgraded equipment. Then along comes a brew that totally upsets the apple cart and here I am, with no money left and needing to spend out in order to score in a goal who's posts have been moved back yet another 100 yards!


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## Outlaw333

Is the maestro plus better than its contemporary 'the encore' for brewed? It would seem to me, that by making it more suitable for espresso, surely it would take from its brewed capabilities? If so, is that why Steve still stocks the M+ over the Encore?


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## Earlepap

I guess he's still stocking it just because he has some left. As far as I'm aware it's no longer in production so once it's gone, it's gone.


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## Outlaw333

fatboyslim said:


> Also Baratza Preciso
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Less fines than the Vario, proven!


Unless you want to sell your preciso to me for the price of very very cheap?


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## garydyke1

Contact David Walsh, simply ask...encore or maestro plus, which one. I'm afraid the answer might be ditting 80x or Mahlkonig Tanzania. Is the OE Lido worth a punt ? I have the same conundrum


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## jimbow

I have been looking at the same thing. From what I have read so far, the grind on the Encore and Maestro plus is almost identical on coarser settings but because of the increased range on the Encore it means that the difference between the stepped settings is much larger.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## chimpsinties

I really rated the Virtuoso for it's coarser grind. Very even and not too expensive at £170.


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## Outlaw333

garydyke1 said:


> Contact David Walsh, simply ask...encore or maestro plus, which one. I'm afraid the answer might be ditting 80x or Mahlkonig Tanzania. Is the OE Lido worth a punt ? I have the same conundrum


80x you say? Not the 1203 I've been looking for then?!!


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## Outlaw333

Did you mean 804? I can't find such thing as an 80x?


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## garydyke1

Outlaw333 said:


> Did you mean 804? I can't find such thing as an 80x?


x just means convention 804 or 805

http://www.ditting.com/804_805_series.htm

much more kitchen friendly


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## Outlaw333

Ditting KR804 is the one for me! just gotta find one now!


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## lookseehear

Cant imagine that many come up on eBay :-(


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## big dan

The Baratza Encore is a good budget option (i found it for £114 +vat and free delivery) and also saw this video from WLL:






With this adjustment you could have a reasonable Brewed Coffee Grinder and also the option to make it finer if you wanted to use it for espresso. For the purposes of this thread you could keep it at the coarsest setting to give you more adjustment for pour over methods.

I know its not the Ditting but it is about 1/5 of the price!!


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## Outlaw333

big dan said:


> The Baratza Encore is a good budget option (i found it for £114 +vat and free delivery) and also saw this video from WLL:


Yeah, I have decided on an Encore or Meastro Plus for my brewed needs, at least until I get a Ditting! Calibration seems very nice and easy, I think they are small too so will fit on my bar next to the Mazzer, unlike the Ditting which when I do find one will need a room of my house all to itself!


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## Filthy_rich85

big dan said:


> The Baratza Encore is a good budget option (i found it for £114 +vat and free delivery)


Where have you found one at this price?


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## garydyke1

That's 137 quid right? Closest I can find it

http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/baratza-encore/p576


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## jimbow

This has been bugging me a lot lately. I think it really hit home when:

a) I tried a cup of brewed coffee from a coffee shop using the same coffee as I had brewing at home. The difference was incredible - much sweeter and much more clarity.

b) I tried sifting the grounds from my old Dualit burr grinder and was amazed at just how many fines I was getting.

So, I am now on the search for a new grinder for brewed coffee. There is a wealth of conflicting information on the net about whether the Virtuoso or Maestro series burrs are better for brewed coffee. Nick Cho raved about the Virtuoso recently on Twitter:

https://mobile.twitter.com/#!/NickCho/status/112347880496435200

Then there was David's rather controversial comparison:

http://theotherblackstuff.ie/machines/baratza-grinders/

And comparative grind profiles on all the Baratza grinders over at the Marco Uber project:

http://marco.ie/uberproject/?p=725

And this in-depth comparison on Coffee Geek:

http://www.coffeegeek.com/pdfs/Baratza%20Grinders%20%20SM.pdf

To further add to the confusion, the Virtuoso has recently been updated (model 586) and now ships fitted with the burrs from the Virtuoso Preciso. Finally, there are the new metal Ditting burrs for the Vario that everyone seems to be raving about although it seems highly wasteful to me to shell out for a Vario only to swap out its burrs rendering it incapable of grinding for espresso.

Does anyone on here have any experiences of their own?


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## garydyke1

http://www.a1coffee.co.uk/gbu0-prodshow/BARATZA2.html bit cheaper

wonder if they will do a group purchase discount?


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## benbaldwin

Well, today whilst at Extract, David brewed a Chemex using the infamous Wahanna with my little Porlex hand grinder which tasted phenomenal once dialled in. Best £30 I've ever spent and if you are too lazy to wind it by hand then grab a little electronic screwdriver with a hex attachment and wahey - an electronic grinder you can use for brews for less than £50 that you can take anywhere!!!!


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## Condyk

We've just replaced our shop knackered baratza with the Porlex for brew grinding ... works well, very well actually, but hard work. Like the electric drill idea so will try that  The baratza did a great job tho' for home use or low volume shop use, though not really for espresso.


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## fatboyslim

My recently updated Preciso is producing some absolutely fantastic pour overs.

Each one is getting better and better.


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## lookseehear

benbaldwin said:


> Well, today whilst at Extract, David brewed a Chemex using the infamous Wahanna with my little Porlex hand grinder which tasted phenomenal once dialled in. Best £30 I've ever spent and if you are too lazy to wind it by hand then grab a little electronic screwdriver with a hex attachment and wahey - an electronic grinder you can use for brews for less than £50 that you can take anywhere!!!!


Sounds good! What 'dialling in' process did you go through, was it more about how it tasted or how long it took to brew?


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## Filthy_rich85

The electric screwdriver is a fantastic idea, I've been considering attaching a motor to my Porlex but was worried it would lack power, I doubt the screwdriver would have power issues...... May have to look into it


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## Glenn

Just a word of caution about attaching a screwdriver or drill to the Porlex.

The increased speed can heat the burrs and burn the coffee

The shaft can come out of alignment or bend under the load

It's quite easy to damage the grinder at these speeds

Personally I'd avoid doing this after hearing horror stories and seeing the damage to some grinders first hand...


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## garydyke1

The porlex is over-rated for grind quality at course settings . The price is what saves it and for travel there's not anything better really .......for me Fines and huge "floaters" are not a good basis for brewed coffee. medium filter setting to espresso are pretty consistent but still not the epitome.


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## garydyke1

worth a peek http://coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/564267?LastView=1336496593&Page=1


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## Filthy_rich85

I'm tempted to buy a 2nd Porlex to strip down and modify. Will see what finances are like towards the end of the month but Gary put me onto a Hario mod which adds a 2nd bearing plus fixing the burrs could make the Porlex a lot better at a coarse setting. Can't risk modding my current Porlex as it still has a purpose....


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## garydyke1

Filthy_rich85 said:


> I'm tempted to buy a 2nd Porlex to strip down and modify. Will see what finances are like towards the end of the month but Gary put me onto a Hario mod which adds a 2nd bearing plus fixing the burrs could make the Porlex a lot better at a coarse setting. *Can't risk modding my current Porlex as it still has a purpose*....


sub-optimal coffee is still better than no coffee


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## Filthy_rich85

Porlex is in pieces on my desk at work. I have wedged the larger burr in with paper (will find something stronger once I confirm it helps). I have decide to find a stronger compression spring and I will glue the smaller burr to the burr holder.


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## garydyke1

Something to prevent popcorning might help for consistancy too - an object resting on top of the beans following them down to bottom........another piece of home-engineering to do


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## lookseehear

Here are my porlex mods to add!

I took the outer burr out and rather than using bits of paper I put tape around the outside. It needs a bit more to keep it jammed in but currently at least it's a bit more centred:










The burr in place:










I also did the stepless mod using a washer and two nuts. Works perfectly by hand:


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## Filthy_rich85

I like the tape idea


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## Filthy_rich85

Large burr has been taped up, had to cut some slits into the tape for it to fit properly. Smaller burr has been glued to the little burr holder thingy. I'm meeting Gary tomorrow so we will compare grind quality


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## lookseehear

Cool, looking forwards to hearing the results!


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## Filthy_rich85

Even after all of the above there still seems to be a lot of play in the shaft :s Will find a bigger spring and hope that takes some movement out


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## garydyke1

Whos up for a OE Lido group buy?


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## Outlaw333

I would be interested to try the lido, has anyone got any experience? I'm holding out for a Virtuoso though i think. Then again I'm selling a Motocross bike soon so I could get a brand new Ditting!! I won't because I need to buy a very expensive guitar and won't have enough for the new Ditting but if I find a second hand one at a good price I might be tempted!


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## lookseehear

I'd be really tempted by the Lido, consistency looks pretty good and should last for years.


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## garydyke1

They are currently approx 100 quid (delivery on top) I might email and see how many need to be bought to get a discount & make it viable.

Some info here where they document the grind analysis , comparable to a Ditting KF804 http://www.orphanespresso.com/OE-Lido-Grind-Analysis_ep_645-1.html


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## Outlaw333

Those are some impressive figures, I might actually be tempted, how do you recon the virtuoso compares? If the lido is significantly better I think it might have to go for it!


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## garydyke1

Outlaw333 said:


> Those are some impressive figures, I might actually be tempted, how do you recon the virtuoso compares? If the lido is significantly better I think it might have to go for it!


Thing is I dont need the Lido for Travel, it would be a bonus (which Virtuoso/Maestro+ cannot provide). I can get an OK brewed Aeropress from the Porlex at a fine-drip setting. Its the medium-drip/course-drip/Cupping/French press which is destroying my enjoyment of some potentially great coffees...


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## jimbow

I am in the same boat - a lack of clarity in the cup compared to what I have tasted elsewhere. I am torn between getting a Virtuoso with the Preciso burrs and a Vario with the replacement metal Ditting burrs. The Virtuoso is half the price of the Vario (especially when you factor in the extra cost of the burrs) but is the Vario solution sufficiently better to justify the extra £££ ?

Now I also have the OE Lido to consider - blast you Gary!!!!


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## chimpsinties

I found the Vario got better on the coarser grind over time. Say 1-2kg's of coffee through it and the course setting is producing noticeably less fines which make using my AeroPress much easier.

Espresso settings are still great!


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## Outlaw333

Steve Leighton told me the Vario with the brew only burrs isn't all that special and grind quality is not significant enough over one of the Baratza offerings to warrant the money spent. I think until Ditting or Marco bring out an affordable brew grinder dedicated for the home market with grind quality to match the 804 or Uber, the new Virtuoso 586 with the Preciso burrs will have to do!


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## garydyke1

Outlaw333 said:


> Steve Leighton told me the Vario with the brew only burrs isn't all that special and grind quality is not significant enough over one of the Baratza offerings to warrant the money spent. I think until Ditting or Marco bring out an affordable brew grinder dedicated for the home market with grind quality to match the 804 or Uber, the new Virtuoso 586 with the Preciso burrs will have to do!


Ditting 804 group buy anyone


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## jimbow

Now there is an idea, Gary!

Outlaw333, do you know if anyone selling the Virtuoso in the UK is selling the 586 model?

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## Outlaw333

Well coffee hit are out of stock at the moment so I'm hopeful that the next lot in will be 586's. I'll ask in the questions box nearer the time.


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## garydyke1

Well the email has been sent to OE. I am aware of others in the UK receiving the Lido shipped from the states with no issues.


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## Earlepap

Hehe -

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?5117-Baratza-Virtuoso-586&highlight=Virtuoso


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## fatboyslim

Earlepap said:


> Hehe -
> 
> http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?5117-Baratza-Virtuoso-586&highlight=Virtuoso


Ha! How young and niave I was then. Months later and 1 broken microadjustment collar later....Preciso seems a tad expensive for my brewing needs.

I'm contemplating selling it but we'll see.


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## Earlepap

My first post ever was lamenting how a £50 grinder off amazon wasn't good enough for espresso!


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## JamesG

There's a Mahlkonig Guatemala on eBay at the moment: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAHLKONIG-COFFEE-GRINDER-COMMERCIAL-/310398208071?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item48452cc847

At £750 its maybe a tad overkill. I wonder what they'd accept as an offer? - try and knock a few quid off for the wonky lid.


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## jimbow

A1 Coffee have the 586 Virtuoso in stock. I have just spoken to them, and they are in the process of updating the picture and manual on their site but they now only sell the 586.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## fatboyslim

This has to be the ultimate brewed grinder because its got uber in it.












> The Marco Uber grinder has been designed to partner the Marco Uber boiler. It has been designed in conjunction with Ditting, one of the leadind
> 
> grinder manufacturers in the world.


*drools*


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## lookseehear

I would sell a kidney for an uber grinder.


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## jimbow

I have been following the development of this on the Uber project - it is basically a Tanzania with specially upgraded burrs. Check out the Marco Uber project for more details. The chart at the bottom compares the Uber grinder with the Baratza line up (admittedly not really a fair comparison):

http://marco.ie/uberproject/?p=725


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## garydyke1

omega suggested a potential deal to be had on the maestro+ as a group buy...if anyone interested.


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## Outlaw333

The Uber is going to be driving the brew bar at my coffee shop, it was a toss up between it and the Ditting, all it came down to in the end was aesthetics, the Uber is going to look daddy paired with the 'red' Bunn H5 water boiler!

Gary,

I would be seriously interested if a deal could be made on the Virtuoso(providing it is the latest 586 model)?

Off topic a little, I'm really impressed by Omega(by first impression), I'm very picky about my suppliers but they have made it into my bookmarks list! I think a little more product info would be nice, other than that though they look very good.


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## jimbow

After much research I decided to plump for the Virtuoso (586) too. Unfortunately I ordered it before hearing about Coffee Omega otherwise I may have ordered through them with you chaps. It should be arriving today around the same time as a bag of Sidamo from HasBean









I saw an Uber Grinder in the flesh a couple of weeks ago at the Association in London (great place by the way). It was actually pretty hard to miss!


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## fatboyslim

Jimbow how much would you sell your dualit for?

I reckon a friend of mine could give it a good home if you're going to sell it.

He grows weary of hand grinding.


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## garydyke1

Outlaw333 said:


> The Uber is going to be driving the brew bar at my coffee shop, it was a toss up between it and the Ditting, all it came down to in the end was aesthetics, the Uber is going to look daddy paired with the 'red' Bunn H5 water boiler!
> 
> Gary,
> 
> I would be seriously interested if a deal could be made on the Virtuoso(providing it is the latest 586 model)?
> 
> Off topic a little, *I'm really impressed by Omega(by first impression)*, I'm very picky about my suppliers but they have made it into my bookmarks list! I think a little more product info would be nice, other than that though they look very good.


Has anyone ordered anything from them as yet?


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## garydyke1

The Uber is king for brewed coffee and at 1500 quid is only marginally more than the Tanzania...and a lot less fines apparently

Group buy on Uber anyone... lol


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## tribs

garydyke1 said:


> omega suggested a potential deal to be had on the maestro+ as a group buy...if anyone interested.


Might be interested depending on price. Their standard price is £155 so there would have to be a decent discount for me.


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## lookseehear

Considering it is pretty much the best grinder available today for brewed I don't think £1,500 is that bad. Not yet, but in a few years I could see myself going for one (or whatever is the current uber grinder at the time). The only slightly concerning thing is how many kilos of coffee it would take to season the burrs!


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## garydyke1

tribs said:


> Might be interested depending on price. Their standard price is £155 so there would have to be a decent discount for me.


If their prices do not inc VAT then yes £155. I would only be interested if the unit price was


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## JamesG

lookseehear said:


> Considering it is pretty much the best grinder available today for brewed I don't think £1,500 is that bad. Not yet, but in a few years I could see myself going for one (or whatever is the current uber grinder at the time). The only slightly concerning thing is how many kilos of coffee it would take to season the burrs!


Maybe if you're (very) lucky in a few years a second-hand one might become available. Save seasoning the burrs


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## JamesG

Has anyone else seen Colin Harmon's post on the Uber and Essato: http://colinharmon.wordpress.com/2012/04/15/bleeding-bunnies-on-bar/


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## Earlepap

Interesting post that. I'm not concerned with the length of time it takes to make a coffee on a brew bar. If I'm in a rush I'd go for an espresso anyway.


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## Outlaw333

In about a years time(hopefully) when i'm open, you can all come and play on my Uber at the shop! I will be running weekly evening coffee geekery sessions for anyone with an interest to come and play(just one of my many plans to get people excited about coffee and offer something cool for people like us!). If an Uber II comes out later you guys will have shotgun rights to buy it!


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## jimbow

fatboyslim said:


> Jimbow how much would you sell your dualit for?
> 
> I reckon a friend of mine could give it a good home if you're going to sell it.
> 
> He grows weary of hand grinding.


My Sister expressed an interest a while back when I mentioned to her I would be upgrading, so I am afraid she has first refusal. Let me check if she still wants it and get back to you.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## beebah

Outlaw333 said:


> Gary,
> 
> I would be seriously interested if a deal could be made on the Virtuoso(providing it is the latest 586 model)?


I'm interested in the virtuouso too.

Am I right in thinking it is the best for mixed use (more brewed than espresso) around that price?


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## coffee_omega

gartdyke1

you want Uber on group buy as well??? LOL

Not a problem we can cater for that as well.

Encor has attracted much interest we already have 3 back orders arriving approx. 04.05.12

If there are anyone else interested drop us an email: [email protected] or pre-order via website

price: £119 + VAT + Free delivery

Coffee Omega Team



garydyke1 said:


> The Uber is king for brewed coffee and at 1500 quid is only marginally more than the Tanzania...and a lot less fines apparently
> 
> Group buy on Uber anyone... lol


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## jimbow

This weekend I have finally been able to have a proper play with my new Virtuoso grinder. The grind consistency appears good and the amount of fines (or rather lack of) is very impressive.

Physically, the grinder appears impressively built and is surprisingly heavy. The base and top are nickel plated metal and the sides are black plastic but seem reassuringly solid and heavy duty. The grounds bin is made of plastic and unfortunately seems to suffer from static - grounds stick to the sides and even jump out when the bin is removed from the machine. This was a problem with my Dualit grinder too (which I believe is distantly related to the Virtuoso) although did get better over time and rubbing the machine with a spoon seemed to help too.

In the cup, the grind seems to deliver improved clarity and a much finer control over extraction compared to the Dualit I was using.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## Outlaw333

Awesome, I'm glad you are getting on well with the Virtuoso.

Me with my fickle mind have opted for a different brew grinder after all that, whose identity i will share with you all when it arrives!


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## Outlaw333

Might take a month or two though.


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## garydyke1

Outlaw333 said:


> Awesome, I'm glad you are getting on well with the Virtuoso.
> 
> Me with my fickle mind have opted for a different brew grinder after all that, whose identity i will share with you all when it arrives!


Spill the beans!


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## fatboyslim

Its a Lido ain't it?


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## lookseehear

fatboyslim said:


> Its a Lido ain't it?


That was my first thought.


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## garydyke1

My grinder for brewed problem has been solved...just won a pretty much brand new Maestro+ for 60 quid on fleabay . woo hoo


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## fatboyslim

garydyke1 said:


> My grinder for brewed problem has been solved...just won a pretty much brand new Maestro+ for 60 quid on fleabay . woo hoo


£60 for a Maestro + is pretty ridiculous if its in good condition. Might be worth taking case off and checking the adjustment ring when you get it.

At least Baratza are in the habit of spending spares and new parts all the way from the US totally free of charge if anything is wore/damaged


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## garydyke1

fatboyslim said:


> £60 for a Maestro + is pretty ridiculous if its in good condition. Might be worth taking case off and checking the adjustment ring when you get it.
> 
> At least Baratza are in the habit of spending spares and new parts all the way from the US totally free of charge if anything is wore/damaged


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261034287845?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1952.l2649&autorefresh=true


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## fatboyslim

Jesus that is a bargin. Good work Gary


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## lookseehear

Nice spot - this is where it helps that Baratza aren't as big a name on eBay etc as the likes of dualit/krups etc. Although I don't have much to compare it to I still feel like my Maestro+ is good enough that the only thing to replace it would be a ditting or similar.


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## Outlaw333

You jammy bugger! I've been looking for baratzas on eBay every week for ages, the one week I dont bother and you get a bargain like that! You're like a casino lurker stealing my jackpot!

Never mind I'm pretty excited about what I'm about to order when I get paid!


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## garydyke1

Both coffeehit and A1 couldn't source maestro + as its been replaced with the encore....so I'm suprised Omega suggested they could get them ...

I'm pleased with getting one after David Walsh confirmed its still the best brewed coffee grinder in that league


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## Outlaw333

Marco said as much too on the grind study that it made the best tasting coffee.

You guys are right though I have opted for the lido! I saw a vid and found that it grinds 25g in no time atall and it means I can be drinking world class coffee anywhere I go! I'm having a bespoke flight case company make me an MI6 style case to carry my Chemex, V60, filters, two mugs, two sets of AW scales, Buono, Burner, Lido, thermometer, a compartment to hold bags of beans etc etc! I wanted to keep it top secret and then post pics but I couldn't do it any more!


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## Earlepap

Outlaw333 said:


> I'm having a bespoke flight case company make me an MI6 style case to carry my Chemex, V60, filters, two mugs, two sets of AW scales, Buono, Burner, Lido, thermometer, a compartment to hold bags of beans etc etc!


I look forward to seeing pictures, and hearing tales of customs snarl ups.


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## lookseehear

Outlaw333 said:


> Marco said as much too on the grind study that it made the best tasting coffee.
> 
> You guys are right though I have opted for the lido! I saw a vid and found that it grinds 25g in no time atall and it means I can be drinking world class coffee anywhere I go! I'm having a bespoke flight case company make me an MI6 style case to carry my Chemex, V60, filters, two mugs, two sets of AW scales, Buono, Burner, Lido, thermometer, a compartment to hold bags of beans etc etc! I wanted to keep it top secret and then post pics but I could do it any more!


This is actually ridiculous but amazing at the same time. Can't wait to see pics.


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## Outlaw333

lookseehear said:


> This is actually ridiculous but amazing at the same time. Can't wait to see pics.


My thinking exactly!!


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## garydyke1

lookseehear said:


> Nice spot - this is where it helps that Baratza aren't as big a name on eBay etc as the likes of dualit/krups etc. Although I don't have much to compare it to I still feel like my Maestro+ is good enough that the only thing to replace it would be a ditting or similar.


Any pointers on grind setting for each method :

1. Aeropress

2. Clever

3. V60 ?


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## lookseehear

garydyke1 said:


> Any pointers on grind setting for each method :
> 
> 1. Aeropress
> 
> 2. Clever
> 
> 3. V60 ?


1. Aeropress - I don't use my AP at home much - more when travelling with the porlex. I'd probably start at 15 ish though.

2. Clever - I've been having really nice results this week on step 20 - similar to a v60 grind. With 300ml water and 18g of coffee that gave me a 1m draw down time

3. V60 - I usually start at 19 and adjust from there

I need to start writing things down a bit more though I think - my brewing could probably benefit from a bit more continuity.


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## jimbow

Still dialing in myself but I am finding 16 for V60 with 24g of coffee gets me into the right ball park on the Virtuoso.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


----------



## lookseehear

From David Walsh's blog: "I found notch 18 on both the Maestro and Maestro+ got me to 19% extraction, while setting 20 was required on the Virtuoso. This I like, it feels reassuring in terms of quality control, but also perhaps if consistent in the broader sense of production runs, may prove useful in terms of giving people starting points for particular brews."

For some reason I didn't realise the Virtuoso has the same number of steps as the Maestro - it's nice to be able to compare.


----------



## garydyke1

My Maestro Plus has been shipped today, Roy cannot wait for a little friend to keep him company , haha


----------



## fatboyslim

Maestro Plus needs a suitable name to join the Brewtus + Roy club.

Maybe Mae-tai?


----------



## pendragoncs

fatboyslim said:


> Maestro Plus needs a suitable name to join the Brewtus + Roy club.
> 
> Maybe Mae-tai?


How about - Austin


----------



## Earlepap

Mae little pony.


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## garydyke1

Yay , its arrived and is pretty much brand new. Gave it a good clean out, not a lot came out to be honest.

The grind quality is stunning, the look and feel is way better than the Porlex ever was. Grain consistancy is visably uniform, very few fines and very few overly large chunks

Tomorrow I will try a V60 at setting 18 with Limoncello (which didnt particularly shine with Porlex at similar setting)


----------



## lookseehear

They're really solid little grinders as well - a bit noisy but I love the fact that they're geared down for a slow 'crunching' grind - I'm convinced it produces less fines as a result.


----------



## garydyke1

Certainly less pop-corning.

Roy is almost twice the height, and there is no hopper on the mazzer!


----------



## jimbow

I found this thread regarding grind sizes and settings (not sure how the Maestro plus and Virtuoso settings compare):

http://coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/questions/553436

From the thread:

Ditting's site has the following guidelines:

1 -- Turkish (approx. 100 microns)

3 -- Espresso (approx. 300 microns)

5 - Paper Filter (approx. 500 microns)

6 -- Melitta (approx. 600 microns)

7 -- Metal Filter (approx. 700 microns)

8 -- Perculator (approx. 800 microns)

9 -- French Press (approx. 900 microns)

Baratza's general guidelines (Virtuoso):

Setting: 1 to 10, Type Coffee: Espresso, Grind: Fine, Ave grind size in microns: 351 to 495

Setting: 15 to 28, Type Coffee: Drip, Grind: Medium, Ave grind size in microns: 701 to 1168

Setting: 34 to 40, Type Coffee: French Press, Grind: Coarse, Ave grind size in microns: 1651 to 1918

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


----------



## lookseehear

From the Baratza guidelines it looks like step 20 or so should be around the 800 micron which is often recommended as a drip grind. I rarely make cafetiere so can't speak for that and never use it for espresso so can't speak for that either!


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## fatboyslim

I think I use 22-24 on my preciso for pourover. Not sure where this fits in compared to virtuoso and maestro.


----------



## garydyke1

Well today I tried a V60 using 18 on the Maestro, visually the grind looked a lot finer than what i would normally use from the Porlex, in reality the average particle size is probably the same!

The pour took a little bit longer than my regular Porlex setting, initally I thought this might end up really over extracted but I need'nt have worried. The end result was pretty good for a first attempt, the cup had a lot more about it, more distinct flavours. Limoncello giving some toffee-apple-caramel notes which just came across as ''roasty'' from the Porlex. Grinds from the Maestro lead to a better extraction....Porlex now only for travel/work usage

I would be tempted to try again at settings 19 and 20, keeping the dose at 14g and water temp 95.5


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## garydyke1

Fancy taking a risk , anyone ? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DITTING-SWISS-COMMERCIAL-COFFEE-GRINDER-RETAIL-USE-/261036214989?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item3cc6f88acd


----------



## lookseehear

I was following that one - not a bad price either but I think that kind of upgrade will have to wait a few years.


----------



## lookseehear

garydyke1 said:


> Well today I tried a V60 using 18 on the Maestro, visually the grind looked a lot finer than what i would normally use from the Porlex, in reality the average particle size is probably the same!
> 
> The pour took a little bit longer than my regular Porlex setting, initally I thought this might end up really over extracted but I need'nt have worried. The end result was pretty good for a first attempt, the cup had a lot more about it, more distinct flavours. Limoncello giving some toffee-apple-caramel notes which just came across as ''roasty'' from the Porlex. Grinds from the Maestro lead to a better extraction....Porlex now only for travel/work usage
> 
> I would be tempted to try again at settings 19 and 20, keeping the dose at 14g and water temp 95.5


I'm on the El Salvador Finca Santa Petronas at the moment - had a cup from clever dripper and porlex yesterday - like you said, a bit roasty and not much flavour. Had a clever dripper this morning via the Maestro and it was much much better - getting the slight lime element and no roasty taste.


----------



## garydyke1

lookseehear said:


> From the Baratza guidelines it looks like step 20 or so should be around the 800 micron which is often recommended as a drip grind. I rarely make cafetiere so can't speak for that and never use it for espresso so can't speak for that either!


Ive noticed that the burrs actually touch at setting 9, the calibration must be way out?? Does this mean when I think im grinding at setting 19, im actually at setting 10 ?


----------



## MWJB

http://www.baratza.com/wp-content/uploads/recalibration.pdf

"Ive noticed that the burrs actually touch at setting 9, the calibration must be way out?? Does this mean when I think im grinding at setting 19, im actually at setting 10 ?"

Ha, ha Gary....that reminds me of the much quoted Spinal Tap "Marshall amp goes to 11" scene...

Interviewer, "Why don't you just make 10 louder and turn it up to 10?"

Nigel Tuffnel, "Yeah, but this goes to 11...?"

Hope the attachement helps if you haven't yet seen it...


----------



## garydyke1

attachment?


----------



## MWJB

Sorry, couldn't make it "stick", see link in previous post...


----------



## garydyke1

Looks like mine is set to grind finer then, will change that ASAP!

To be fair, my current brews at setting 19-20 are damn tasty but will adjust and try again


----------



## garydyke1

I have calibrated the Maestro, the screw was set dead centre in neutral, so moved it as far left as would go into coarse.

The burrs now touch slightly at setting 6


----------



## MWJB

So is 6 the new 9, or the new 0?


----------



## garydyke1

apparently Luke's Maestro had burrs touching at setting 10 too. So if I want to talk brew recipes I either change it back or factor in a difference of 4 notches


----------



## MWJB

The trouble with many production tolerance devices is that, once "calibrated", they only conform to themselves for sure. The "numbers" essentially just being artwork on the casing rather than a standardised, specific unit of measurement (microns, inches, yards, parsecs, Lords a leaping...). Perhaps a more universal way to talk about relative settings on a specific grinder, might be to express it as "so many integers from burrs touching"? So your old "19-20" setting would have been 10-11 stops from burrs touching, when they touched at "9"?


----------



## lookseehear

Whilst you are probably right in general - when David Walsh compared the maestro, maestro+ and virtuoso he found that the same grind (as measured with a refractometer in the resulting brews) was found on step 19 on the maestro and plus, and step 20 on the virtuoso. You can't guarantee its the exact same across different grinders but it gives you confidence in recommending a setting as a starting point.


----------



## garydyke1

lookseehear said:


> Whilst you are probably right in general - when David Walsh compared the maestro, maestro+ and virtuoso he found that the same grind (as measured with a refractometer in the resulting brews) was found on step 19 on the maestro and plus, and step 20 on the virtuoso. You can't guarantee its the exact same across different grinders but it gives you confidence in recommending a setting as a starting point.


I should have asked David at what setting he got the burrs touching, if also 9/10 then maybe I should regress my change, Ill never be grinding that fine anyway


----------



## garydyke1

@otherblackstuff didnt think the burrs should be touching at '10' or '6' so I have emailed Baratza, might be something else to adjust to recalibrate properly


----------



## lookseehear

I just noticed the reply from David. Let me know what they say, I'll be interested to hear if there's more calibration needed.


----------



## garydyke1

Baratza response

*Hi Gary,*







*
Why are you interested in the touch time of your Maestro Plus? Is it not grinding fine enough for your needs? What style of coffee are you grinding for (espresso)?*







*
You may have a compromised upper burr holder or adjustment ring, please follow the guide attached to inspect your components.*







*
Let me know,*







*
Pierce Jens*

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/75958704/How%20to%20Troubleshoot%20A%20Grind%20Quality%20Issue.pdf


----------



## garydyke1

After further email conversations , I got the answer I wanted

*Hi Gary,*







*
Burr touch time should be between 6 and 10. When there is coffee in the grinder, it acts as a spacer at the finer settings and prevents the burrs from rubbing against each other. The burrs are hardened steel, so contact is not an issue between them unless it is for extended periods of time (think 5 minutes of grinding at a setting of one everyday).*







*
Regards,*







*
Pierce Jens*

Thus I am now happy I have a perfectly working grinder, recalibrated to touch at setting ''6''.


----------



## lookseehear

Nice, that's a really good response and further shows how good Baratza's customer service are. When you say they touch at 6, is that the first step where you hear any touching at all? I think I might recalibrate mine as well, just so I don't have to add 4 if I want to try your brew recipes!

Saw your post on twitter after trying the clever dripper recipe - I only tried that once with those beans so maybe I had a lucky draw down . To be honest I found the Santa Petrona a bit bland in general as a brew. Better as espresso but not a knock out by any stretch of the word!


----------



## garydyke1

lookseehear said:


> Nice, that's a really good response and further shows how good Baratza's customer service are. When you say they touch at 6, is that the first step where you hear any touching at all? I think I might recalibrate mine as well, just so I don't have to add 4 if I want to try your brew recipes!
> 
> Saw your post on twitter after trying the clever dripper recipe - I only tried that once with those beans so maybe I had a lucky draw down . To be honest I found the Santa Petrona a bit bland in general as a brew. Better as espresso but not a knock out by any stretch of the word!


Yeah recalibrate (ie screw in far left-hand window all the way) least you know thats as close to ''0'' as you will get without slight touching

Petrona behaves better using your recipe if brew water is 91-93 ish. My normal 95/96 was too roasty & I think Steve couldnt get jailbreak MK3 out of his mind when determining roast profile for the Petrona IMM , lol...as you say pretty decent espresso, choc and nuts and little else


----------



## Outlaw333

The OE Lido is on its way!!! I'm seriously excited! I can't wait to brew with it and find out whether its grind Quality really is comparable to a Ditting as the grind analysis indicates.. As long as it is comparable to at least a Baratza then i'll be happy!


----------



## Outlaw333

It's actually really amazing to watch the progress of the Lido on its way here, it is visiting some pretty cool places en route! It started in Troy Idaho, next it went to Washington and now has just arrived in LA!


----------



## Outlaw333

Just Checked on google maps and right now it is sat in LA International Airport, right between Manhattan Beach and Santa Monica. Hopefully Next Stop England!!


----------



## Earlepap

Wacky route it's taking. I'm picturing it personified, hopping on and off box cars desperately trying to get to you, meeting many characters en route and learning important lessons. The littlest lido.


----------



## Outlaw333

HaHa! I can't wait to hear its stories when it gets here. It might be quite amusing to write its tales in a thread one day, The Adventures of The Littlest Lido!


----------



## garydyke1

I have Lido envy


----------



## Outlaw333

Mwa ha ha ha!! forgive me a cruel chuckle! You can of course always order one for yourself Gary?

I am so excited! I think it is in the UK now!


----------



## pendragoncs

Just thinking about getting a grinder for brewed so my Porlex can be retired for travel and work only.

Is the Lido the way to go or am i better of looking a Baratza or other?


----------



## jimbow

I think the answer depends upon why you want to upgrade from the Porlex. If it is because you are fed up with manually cranking the grinder then Baratza or other more expensive grinders like those from Ditting/Malkoenig may well be the way to go. If however you want to improve your grind consistency and are not afraid of a little elbow grease then, by all accounts, the Lido offers a very interesting proposition with excellent grind consistency at a relatively low price.

I have a Baratza Virtuoso 586 with Baratza Esatto attachment and am very happy with the consistency and ease of use. The Esatto attachment allows weight based dosing but has surprisingly also given the grinder more stability and this has been reflected in the grind consistency. The Baratza Esatto works with all grinders in the Baratza range except the Vario.


----------



## garydyke1

I love my Baratza Maestro+ now and was very lucky with the ebay deal. Leagues , infact light-years ahead of the Porlex for grind quality.

Would I upgrade? Only if a Tanzania or Ditting fell off the back of lorry!

If the remit was hand-grinder , then a Lido without doubt


----------



## lookseehear

I keep bidding on Dittings on eBay. My girlfriend would go absolutely nuts if I tried to put it in the kitchen though. I would guess that I would be walking to the shed at the end of the garden to grind my coffee in the morning!


----------



## Earlepap

I bought myself a belated birthday present of different burrs for my Vario. This will make it unable to grind for espresso, but theoretically be much better for brewed. We'll see.


----------



## Outlaw333

ooooo nice, let us know how they are, it was something that really intrigued me before i settled for the Lido as some accounts suggested that they basically turn your Vario into a Ditting! I'll believe it when I see it but I remain optimistic that there is every chance of that being the case, or if not it should still be a dramatic improvement.


----------



## jimbow

Wow, I was intrigued by these too! The burrs are made by Ditting. Please let us know your thoughts when you get them!


----------



## pendragoncs

Thanks All...

No preference either way i.e. hand grinder or other but to me the OE Lide is little big for my liking for camping or work so would be used at home only. Not set a budget as yet and don't require the grinder for espresso so it gonna be brew only.

I see Coffee Omega have some deals on their grinders at the mo.


----------



## Earlepap

If you've no budget and have the space, there's someone selling an almost new uber grinder on the forum at the moment!


----------



## pendragoncs

Earlepap said:


> If you've no budget and have the space, there's someone selling an almost new uber grinder on the forum at the moment!


LOL.....i've not set a budget. But i think the Finance Director aka my wife will have a say and that may be a bit beyond my eventual budget.

I suppose £200 give or take a few quid is probably what i'm looking at.


----------



## garydyke1

Dont think that would leave any room for upgraditis on the brewed front!


----------



## Earlepap

From what I've read it seems either the Lido or a Maestro plus is your best bet for a budget around £200.

I'm hoping these new burrs will quell any upgrade desire for brewed grinding. I can't see myself spending thousands on a grinder unless I win the lottery. Of course it also means if I ever get back into espresso at home I'll need to buy a new grinder for that!


----------



## jimbow

You may have trouble finding a Maestro+ as Baratza do not actually make them anymore - you could try second hand. The Baratza Virtuoso comes in under £200 too but if you do opt for this grinder then make sure you get the 586 model rather than the older 585 because of the upgraded burr set. Finally you could consider the new Baratza Encore grinder which replaced the Maestro+ although many people believe the Maestro+ was in fact better for brewed coffee.

Whichever model you go for, you can pair it with the Baratza Esatto which provides weighed dosing. I have also found, as a pleasing side effect, the Esatto seems to provide additional stability during grinding and am noticing visibly improved grind consistency.


----------



## Outlaw333

pendragoncs said:


> Thanks All...
> 
> No preference either way i.e. hand grinder or other but to me the OE Lide is little big for my liking for camping or work so would be used at home only.


The Lido may be a bit bigger than a porlex but it isn't massive massive(about 11 inches including the height of the handle) and comes with a lovely handled protective neoprene carry tube/sausage/bag/case! I'm taking mine to Colorado with me in a few weeks.


----------



## Earlepap

Outlaw333 said:


> I'm taking mine to Colorado with me in a few weeks.


I wonder what security will make of that! How's your coffee hitman's flight case coming on?


----------



## Outlaw333

I have been pretty broke recently for one thing or another so have put the MI5/hitman case on hold for a bit but it shouldn't be too long, maybe early in the new year or something.

As for getting through US customs, im just praying that there is a coffee geek working that day who will understand!! I will also be packing a Chemex, Filters, Buono, Scales and Coffee so it should be fairly self expanitory!


----------



## MWJB

I use my Lido at work, it's large, but sturdy...clunky, lacks any sense of ergonomics...but it does an undeniably great job & you can go from setting to setting in a flash. It sits next to a neglected electric grinder on my desk, whilst I grind 50g plus, twice a day by hand...it's not for everyone, but if I just had to have one grinder it would be the Lido...foibles & all.


----------



## forzajuve

I've been stalking this thread for a while as I'm hoping to get an electric grinder for brewed. The main reason for the electric is that I mostly go brewed for when I have more than 2 people round which is too much for the Classic to cope with in time for us all to drink together. Making coffee for 6 with a hand grinder is hard work! Anyway with a birthday coming up I will be demanding coffee related giftage









It looks like the Maestro+ is the best bet, bar some extravagant spending, but they have stopped making it. Does this mean that Baratza are planning on a replacement model? Should I try and source one of the remaining ones available or wait to see something new come out?

Naturally I expect a forum member to have an inside line and give me an answer straight away!!!


----------



## lookseehear

I love my Maestro+. It might not be the absolute pinnacle of grind quality but I dont think there's much better than it unless you spend a lot on a big shop grinder.

I think Baratza replaced the Maestro with the Encore which seems to be out of stock most places now. Not sure whether the coarse grind is worse than Maestro though as the Encore is meant to be a budget espresso grinder as well as good at drip etc.

If you want to know whats going on then maybe send coffeehit an email, as they stock a lot of Baratza products (I bought my Maestro+ from them).

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## jimbow

I spent some time researching the Baratza line-up and the various differing opinions when I bought mine earlier this year. Some of the posts and discussions are visible earlier in this thread. I found the general consensus to be that the Encore is comparable with the Maestro plus (which it replaces) but has a broader adjustment range. This means that the Encore is capable of grinding fine enough for espresso but that the steps between settings are larger.

There were also a number of people who rated the Maestro plus as superior to the more expensive Virtuoso for brewed coffee. It turns out however that these comparisons were made using the older Virtuoso 585 model and that the newer 586 model has an upgraded burr set which is much better for brewed. Nick Cho in particular has been comparing the Virtuoso favourably with bigger, more expensive bulk grinders and Baratza themselves now recommend the Virtuoso as their best grinder for brewed coffee.

I know Baratza have been putting a lot of work into their grinders and responding to customer feedback. I think all of the grinders in the Baratza range offer good results at an affordable price point.

I do seem to remember reading somewhere that Baratza have just reached the end of their 240V (european) production run so retailers may run low on stock until the next run.


----------



## forzajuve

Cheers guys. I didn't realise the Encore was the replacement as it is aimed at doing both espresso and brew grind. Essentially then it will be either be a Maestro+ or the Virtuoso 586 depending on what is available at the time.

Thanks for helping my confusion with the different models!


----------



## pendragoncs

Well the groundwork has been laid......in passing last night i mentioned to my wife that i need another grinder for my coffee.

Met with a grunt which when i used Google Translate meant "Ok, get whatever you like....Honey"

Well at least when i get it she can't say i didn't tell her.

I'll give it another week or so to see if any are kicking round on ebay otherwise the prices over Coffee Omega ar looking quite good...

Baratza Encore £119

Baratza Virtuoso £159 - *Will need to check the model*

Baratza Virtuoso Precisio £254 -* Is the worth the Extra?*

Mahlkonig Vario £290 - *Overkill just for brewed i suppose?*

May Pm them as well as at one point they were offering some extra discount for forum members.


----------



## chimpsinties

pendragoncs said:


> Baratza Encore £119
> 
> Baratza Virtuoso £159 - *Will need to check the model*
> 
> Baratza Virtuoso Precisio £254 -* Is the worth the Extra?*
> 
> Mahlkonig Vario £290 - *Overkill just for brewed i suppose?*


Baratza Encore £119 - *I'd steer clear tbh as it's bottom of the range for them*

Baratza Virtuoso £159 - *Would be great. I had one of these and really rated it for brewed*

Baratza Virtuoso Precisio £254 -* Depends if you "ever" want to do espresso in the future*

Mahlkonig Vario £290 - *Overkill for brewed but a ruddy good grinder none the less. Who knows where your journey will take you *


----------



## lookseehear

If you can stretch to it I would go for the Vario with the steel burrs. Expensive but probably no better grinder this side of a giant Ditting.


----------



## Earlepap

I'd go for a Maestro plus or a Virtuoso (ensuring it is the 586 model). The other options are if you want espresso grinding too, and since you already have a Mazzer...


----------



## pendragoncs

Earlepap said:


> I'd go for a Maestro plus or a Virtuoso (ensuring it is the 586 model). The other options are if you want espresso grinding too, and since you already have a Mazzer...


Hopeully have a supplier with a Virtuoso 586 coming in next week.

Interestingly, CoffeeHit have decided to stop selling Baratza grinders. The reason they gave me was "Lots of breakages was reason to stop selling"

Has anyone had issues with their Baratza grinder or heard of issues?


----------



## Earlepap

I seem to remember someone having a preciso where the adjustment thing broke off, though replacement bits were sent out. Customer service from Baratza is supposed to be excellent.


----------



## fatboyslim

That was me! All is well in preciso land and I use it as my brewed grinder. It excels! Slightly overpriced though.

Customer service is excellent.


----------



## pendragoncs

Earlepap said:


> I seem to remember someone having a preciso where the adjustment thing broke off, though replacement bits were sent out. Customer service from Baratza is supposed to be excellent.


Yeh read good things about their CS. Will probably still get one but interested to know if build quality was an issue or there were common faults.


----------



## pendragoncs

fatboyslim said:


> That was me! All is well in preciso land and I use it as my brewed grinder. It excels! Slightly overpriced though.
> 
> Customer service is excellent.


Yeh i though a preciso might be overkill for me as a brew only grinder and at about £100 more that the normal Virtuoso it was a bit much for pretty much the same machine.

The Virtuoso is £179 so not to bad.


----------



## Pablo

I'm in the market for a new grinder now for brewed and espresso. It doesn't look like there's much argument that the Vario is an excellent grinder for different brew methods but actually how good is it for espresso compared to machines such as MC2, Rocky, Mignon, Mazzer Mini, Super Jolly etc. I do realise that the best of those machines is going to be a better grinder than the Vario for espresso but where does the Vario fit in in terms of grind quality?


----------



## Outlaw333

It seems to me that the Vario is a very capable espresso grinder with the ability to do mediocre brewed coffee, I think it sits in the vacuum between really good espresso grinders and brew grinders, there are better grinders at both ends of that spectrum and I think as an all rounder the Baratza Preciso seems a more attractive option. Espresso wise I would go Mazzer.

Only my opinion.


----------



## Earlepap

I think the Vario is a really good espresso grinder, and an ok brewed grinder. I don't think there is a grinder out there that does both really well.


----------



## Pablo

Thanks Outlaw, Earlepap. I guess I was mistaken in thinking that the vario was the king of brew grinders!

Will have to rethink.


----------



## Earlepap

Is having two grinders an option? If so, I'd probably try to get a second hand Mazzer and a new Maestro or Virtuoso. Shouldn't exceed £400.


----------



## Pablo

It's certainly an option but I'm quite short of space in the kitchen!


----------



## Pablo

Question for fatboyslim:

I noticed that you had a Super Jolly and a Preciso. I take it you use the Preciso for brewed but what's your opinion on it as an espresso grinder and how do you compare it to the Mazzer?


----------



## fatboyslim

Pablo said:


> Question for fatboyslim:
> 
> I noticed that you had a Super Jolly and a Preciso. I take it you use the Preciso for brewed but what's your opinion on it as an espresso grinder and how do you compare it to the Mazzer?


Hi Pablo,

Good question. I do indeed use the Preciso for brewed only but recently I did a comparison between preciso and SJ for espresso. The preciso is definitely capable of espresso grind and it gives a pretty consistent grind too, it just comes out pretty clumpy and requires much WDT. SJ only needs a token gesture amount of WDT. Taste wise I think the SJ has a much smoother and richer flavour that is sweeter while the Preciso gave a pleasant tasting shot that wasn't quite as deep in flavour as SJ, perhaps a bit fruitier and not as sweet.

If I didn't have a SJ I'm sure I'd still be getting on with the Preciso as the micro adjust slider is totally genius and makes grind adjustments so easy. Really wish SJ had one.

Hope this helps, and at £254 it's definitely good value (I paid considerably more for mine). Customer service also excellent.


----------



## pendragoncs

fatboyslim said:


> ... at £254 it's definitely good value (I paid considerably more for mine). Customer service also excellent.


Should have updated my earlier post ... Sadly those prices are excl Vat.

Don't you just hate it when its not made clear on a website prices are excl or incl of vat.

Jason


----------



## Pablo

fatboyslim said:


> Hi Pablo,
> 
> Good question. I do indeed use the Preciso for brewed only but recently I did a comparison between preciso and SJ for espresso. The preciso is definitely capable of espresso grind and it gives a pretty consistent grind too, it just comes out pretty clumpy and requires much WDT. SJ only needs a token gesture amount of WDT. Taste wise I think the SJ has a much smoother and richer flavour that is sweeter while the Preciso gave a pleasant tasting shot that wasn't quite as deep in flavour as SJ, perhaps a bit fruitier and not as sweet.
> 
> If I didn't have a SJ I'm sure I'd still be getting on with the Preciso as the micro adjust slider is totally genius and makes grind adjustments so easy. Really wish SJ had one.
> 
> Hope this helps, and at £254 it's definitely good value (I paid considerably more for mine). Customer service also excellent.


Thanks







It looks like I may go for the Preciso and keep my eye out for a second hand Mazzer, coupled with an extension to the kitchen! This way I'll end up with a decent grinder for both whilst not sacrificing a massive amount at the espresso end with the Baratza for the time being. Don't mind putting up with the extra WDT for the time being, though I had to look up what it stood for!

It's a pity that:

1) Baratza prices in the UK are a third more than in the US and

2) The Vario doesn't grind as well as the Preciso (from what I have read). The electronic features of the Vario are appealing but then again there is more that can go wrong. I do wonder whether Baratza are considering taking the best of both the Preciso and the Vario and making a grinder that improves upon both.


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## fatboyslim

I think thats a good decision Pablo. I'm moving to University very soon and I'm leaving my SJ at home and will be relying on the Preciso for brewed and espresso once again.

In order for me to be totally happy with it for espresso use I'm going to do a simple mod that will mean the burrs touch at a low setting (they don't touch at the lowest setting at the moment). Simply done by adding shims that push the bezel/bottom burr higher up so it sits closer to the ring/top burr. Should remove the problem of not being able to go fine enough for some coffees but with the added risk of damaging the adjustment ring. Luckily when my original adjustment ring broke Baratza sent me 2 replacements and the v2.0 gearbox from the US totally free! So if I break another one due to my mod I can just get replacements







Gotta love Baratza.

Having taken the Preciso totally to bits several times I have to say, while it does have a lot of plastic construction it does seem very well designed. And with the addition of the longer lasting gearbox and motor end plate as well as the reinforcement adjustment ring design, the Preciso should be going strong for some time to come. Again, hope this helps and I'm just sorry that the Preciso is so expensive because otherwise I think it would totally dominate the entry level or just above entry level grinder category.


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## gmason

I've been following this thread with great interest as brewed (press and pour-over) is my overall coffee preference. I also like occasional espresso-based drinks and am currently sitting on the fence in terms of what grinder to upgrade to. I had looked at some of the Baratza machines so the views here have been very informative, and also considered the Rancilio Rocky on the basis that it is built like a tank, stepped and covers the grind range. Is the RR worth consideration, or should I be looking elsewhere?


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## lookseehear

So I emailed Baratza today because I read on Reddit that you can replace the maestro plus gearbox and burrs with the ones from the virtuoso. I wanted to see whether it would be worth the 'upgrade' for brewed coffee and got this response:

"Hey Luke,

*

The Maestro Plus burr set grinds beautifully for Press and drip coffee, the shortcoming of that burr set is the inability to achieve a sufficiently fine grind for espresso. The Virtuoso burrs mentioned in the post have a full range of grind, but I would take the Maestro burrs if doing just drip and press.

*

However, the GB2.0 is definitely recommended, assuming you have a compatible motor. The GB2.0 maintains the horizontal rigidity of the cone burr, so theoretically you would be getting a more consistent grind. The main benefit is the elimination of the stripped drive gear."

So I'm thinking about upgrading the gearbox, but maybe not until after payday!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


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## fatboyslim

Luke Baratza sent me the v2.0 gearbox and 2 new adjustment rings from the States in a small box absolutely free of charge. Not cost whatsoever! I'm sure they'll send you the gearbox for free. Gearbox mod took me about 20 minutes. Definitely recommended. When you open up the gearbox you'll see so much metal shavings from where the driveshaft has rubbed on the motor end plate and gear. I actually found the new gearbox to be faster at grinding too!

Tee he he so I have modified by Preciso to get a better range of espresso grinds.

I literally only added a 0.25mm shim to the drive shaft and the jump in grind range is ridiculous.

Before mod I could go right down to grind 1a and burrs wouldn't touch. That wasn't fine enough for some coffees.

I was doing CCD brews on around setting 14-20 (big range depending on brew time).

Now after the mod the burrs seem to touch at around 8-9 and CCD brews are done at setting 30! What a massive difference 0.25mm made!

Excellent How-To guide from Baratza. You really can't beat their customer service.

Now have to find the sweet spot for my brewed methods again.


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## jimbow

fatboyslim said:


> ...
> 
> Taste wise I think the SJ has a much smoother and richer flavour that is sweeter while the Preciso gave a pleasant tasting shot that wasn't quite as deep in flavour as SJ, perhaps a bit fruitier and not as sweet.
> 
> ...


I think that is a good comparison.

I wonder whether some of this difference in flavour could be influenced by the different types of burrs used in the two grinders. A number of experiments in threads on HB, and during their Titan grinder project, suggested that different flavours tended to become more prominent with conical vs disk burrs and vice versa. If I remember correctly the general consensus seemed to be that fruit flavours tended to be more prominent with conical burrs (as in the Preciso) and that chocolate and nut flavours become more prominent with disk burrs (as in the SJ).


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## garydyke1

Having tasted espresso loads of times from small conical (MC2) , medium Flat (fast spinning - 64mm mini-e), and , large flat (slow-ish spinning 83mm Royal) I have found this trend:-

small conical - neutral balanced espresso, quite muted flavours though

medium flat - brighter fruit notes and acidity highlighted

large flat - focused more on chocs , caramels , more clarity and better separated flavours , balanced acidity

large conical - ??????????? The next upgrade maybe!?

The comparison above - the bigger burrs actually spin at a slower RPM so keeps the heat down, not sure if this is responsible for better flavour clarity


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## fatboyslim

garydyke1 said:


> large conical - ??????????? The next upgrade maybe!?


For god sake don't let Roy hear you say that....

Does anyone know what grinders SQ Mile have, just thinking about our next roastery trip.

I would agree with muted flavours from small conical but I would also say the balance of the shots seems better.


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## Pablo

Thanks again for all your advice fatboyslim









I'm guessing that any Preciso that are sold now all come with the V2.0 gearbox unless it's really old stock.

Also with that shim mod, is the Preciso still able to do the coarsest grinders such as that suitable for French press?

Also do you know id any of these mods invalidate the warranty?


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## fatboyslim

Pablo said:


> Thanks again for all your advice fatboyslim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing that any Preciso that are sold now all come with the V2.0 gearbox unless it's really old stock.
> 
> Also with that shim mod, is the Preciso still able to do the coarsest grinders such as that suitable for French press?
> 
> Also do you know id any of these mods invalidate the warranty?


Yes all Precisos bought now should have the v2.0 gearbox. Due to the manufacturing tolerances, no 2 Precisos are exactly the same and baring in mind what a huge impact 0.25mm had on the grind size, I'd wait to see what your Preciso does straight out of the box.

Next step would be to contact Baratza (usually Pierce who answers, he's awesome!) and tell them you want to grind finer by doing the shim mod. Ask if it would invalidate the warranty. I'm not really bothered about invalidating since when my broke Baratza sent me spares and upgrades all for free including postage.

Have to say the espresso grind is looking very nice but sadly unable to test it at the moment. I'm currently doing CCD brews at about 30 D. The coarsest setting is 40 G so I'd say you've still got a far bit of coarseness to come.

If you need to go coarse you can re calibrate the adjustment ring which is much much easier than the shim mod. Many many excellent guides on how to do all these things on the Baratza website or available from Pierce.

Again hope all this helps.


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## pendragoncs

pendragoncs said:


> Hopeully have a supplier with a Virtuoso 586 coming in next week.
> 
> Interestingly, CoffeeHit have decided to stop selling Baratza grinders. The reason they gave me was "Lots of breakages was reason to stop selling"
> 
> Has anyone had issues with their Baratza grinder or heard of issues?


Oh Well, back to the drawing board for me.

I've had a second supplier explain why the won't/don't stock the Virtuoso.

And again its seems the amount of returns/failures they were getting for this grinder have been throught the roof.

Not sure i really want to risk it.


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## fatboyslim

pendragoncs said:


> Oh Well, back to the drawing board for me.
> 
> I've had a second supplier explain why the won't/don't stock the Virtuoso.
> 
> And again its seems the amount of returns/failures they were getting for this grinder have been throught the roof.
> 
> Not sure i really want to risk it.


Did they go into the nature of the fails/returns? I know the older models with the old gearbox might have had longevity issues but nothing on a big scale.


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## Earlepap

Bad luck pal. What about the Maestro?

It's a real shame no one seems to make a home grinder specifically for brewed coffee. I'm sure there's plenty people out there who want a decent grinder but don't have an interest in espresso at home.


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## garydyke1

Definate gap in the market. The Encore just doesnt seem to fill the hole left by the Maestro.

Imagine an Uber-home or Tanzania-home grinder with smaller burrs and footprint in the region of £300-400. We can dream


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## Earlepap

That said, someone told me they thought even the Tanzania made too many fines. May as well just use a pestle and mortar!


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## garydyke1

My peugeot pepper grinder makes extremely uniform grinds. of pepper anyway


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## garydyke1

Earlepap said:


> That said, someone told me they thought even the Tanzania made too many fines. May as well just use a pestle and mortar!


Uber>Tanzania/Ditting>Lido/Maestro>Porlex>pestle and mortar


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## ronsil

Would that make for HOT Coffee?


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## pendragoncs

fatboyslim said:


> Did they go into the nature of the fails/returns? I know the older models with the old gearbox might have had longevity issues but nothing on a big scale.


No specifics but i asked about the preciso as to me they are pretty much the same machine - just the finer control and a £100 less for the Virtuoso. He said that do get similar issues with the preciso but nothing on the scale of the cheaper Virtuoso.

Jason


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## fatboyslim

Jason that wouldn't even worry me having had problems with my Preciso, its so fun having to contact Baratza because they have so much passion for what they do.

I can see Maestros going for quite a lot on eBay right now seeing as how the Encore doesn't cut the mustard.

I would find out more details about the problems they've had before coming away with a tainted image of Baratza. I know many people who are happy with their grinders, including me.

Sounds a bit dodgy on their part to be honest.


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## garydyke1

Jason , buy yourself an OE Lido. The grind quality exceeds pretty much anything electronic in your budget. Nick will chip in and tell you how effortless it is. Plus the travel options are great


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## Toucan

I've done a search, but was hoping for a little more input... How satisfied are people in general with the porlex mini for French Press?

Is there a better option for travelling with? I'm drawn to the steel enclosure as my version of travelling is perhaps exceptionally rough on equipment.


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## Earlepap

It's not great as the nature of the grinder means its not as consistent at coarse settings. That said, French press is more forgiving of grind inconsistencies than other methods.

As far as I'm aware - unless you can stretch to a Lido - the porlex is probably the best bet for a travel grinder.


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## Toucan

A lido really isn't on the cards, looks like porlex is the way to go. Now I just need to find a retailer that has them in stock!


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## pendragoncs

Toucan said:


> A lido really isn't on the cards, looks like porlex is the way to go. Now I just need to find a retailer that has them in stock!


Have you checked with Steve...

http://www.hasbean.co.uk/collections/grinders/products/porlex-ceramic-burr-coffee-grinder


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## Toucan

I think that's the full size, not the mini. I'll email him to make sure he doesn't have the mini too.


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## pendragoncs

Toucan said:


> I think that's the full size, not the mini. I'll email him to make sure he doesn't have the mini too.


Sorry must have missed its was the mini your after.....out of interest other than the size they are identical arnt they?

Price wise they are the same on CoffeeHit.

And for those interested, the Lido is now back in stock. Just ordered mine.


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## lookseehear

Just seen coffee omega has the virtuoso on sale for £160! Seems a good deal.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


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## fatboyslim

lookseehear said:


> Just seen coffee omega has the virtuoso on sale for £160! Seems a good deal.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


Pretty sure that is excluding VAT


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## lookseehear

Also just noticed that's excluding Vat (£192 inc vat).

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


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## pendragoncs

That caught me out a couple of weeks back. Only realised the final price once it was in the basket and I was at checkout.

They'll probably knock a tenner off for forum members though.


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## Outlaw333

Funny, as I was reading this I look up at the top of the page and there is a Coffee Omega 'FORUM DISCOUNT' banner! I guess that was the deal you were talking about Luke?


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## lookseehear

Outlaw333 said:


> Funny, as I was reading this I look up at the top of the page and there is a Coffee Omega 'FORUM DISCOUNT' banner! I guess that was the deal you were talking about Luke?


Yep that was the one. While I completely understand the need for them to have net prices on the website if mainly dealing with vat registered companies, it didn't seem obvious until you get to the checkout as pendragon said.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


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## Outlaw333

Yeah, a pricing system more akin to CoffeeHit's would be very welcome, with both pre and post tax clearly displayed. For a start, even knowing that everything is excluding VAT it is a pain having to calculate total price every time you look at something, I know it is very simple arithmetic but I find it an unnecessary inconvenience!

Maybe I'm just picky!


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## chimpsinties

We're one of the only countries that hides VAT in the price. Most other countries like to make it very clear that you're being charged a certain amount for a product and then there is VAT on top which the government is taking for itself.


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## fatboyslim

Mini Porlex really gives you a bit of a work out to grind 15g of beans!

Getting goodish results though, not anywhere near as good as Preciso (but its broken!).


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## jimbow

Do you mind me asking what went wrong with your Preciso Mark?


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## fatboyslim

Ha well I was showing Luke what the new gearbox looked like and I must have accidentally damaged the (quite flimsy) motor connector on the circuit board.

Initially it didn't work at all so I disassembled again and put back together and it worked.

Few days later it stopped working mid-grind so I knew it might be the connector so gave it a little tap.

It made straight noises then there was a large spark and it stopped working.

On disassembly, the connector for the motor had short circuited. Baratza have sent me another circuit board for free, just waiting for it to arrive.

Pretty much my own fault for disassembling in a rush. Here is a picture.


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## Outlaw333

I hope your soldering skills are up to the task Batman!


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## fatboyslim

I don't have a soldering iron at uni Nick!

There is a hardware shop opposite me which is insanely tempting given how impatient I am.

I've removed the damaged bits and exposed more metal strip so a solder could be possible.....how impatient am I? (I bought a porlex...)

EDIT: Anyone live near Barbican, London who can lend me their soldering iron? You will be paid in coffee


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## ronsil

Not a pretty sight:act-up:


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## Toucan

I can now strip and reassemble my preciso faster than my rifle.

Details to follow after a few days to make sure it's happy this time!


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## Outlaw333

What's on the other side of that board?


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## Outlaw333

OE Lido doesn't have one of those by the way! Sell that Baratza and join the revolution!


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## fatboyslim

I'm tempted but I'm low on funds right now! Actually the Pharos tickles me more than the Lido.

I got impatient waiting for my circuit board so I contacted Baratza who said it may have got lost so they are sending me another one









I love them, me and Pierce got a bromance going on....

Here is that circuit board, you can see the dodgy connector. My fault it broke!


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## lookseehear

I reckon I'll end up with a Pharos and a Lido at some point. Amazing for the price. I love the raw mechanical design as well. Nothing is there that doesn't need to be!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


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## Outlaw333

fatboyslim said:


> I love them, me and Pierce got a bromance going on....


Are you cheating on me man?


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## forzajuve

Just to return to this thread I now own a Maestro+ for brewed coffee. Only been using a couple of days but I am quite impressed with the consistency in both the visual grind and taste. Far superior to my Hario hand grinder which will have to be relegated to travel purposes only. First brew with a CCD (21 setting) had so much more clarity to it than with the old hand grinder and the draw down time was halved indicating much fewer fines.

I think for the money this is rather impressive to be honest, very happy. Just need to get some ballpark starting points now for other brew methods.


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