# La Pav Pro brass/copper ..warnings and info



## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

I am in the process of doing a refurbish on a Pro brass and copper model. On arrival it was grimy to say the least. The copper boiler had numerous dark spots which appeared proud of the surface and I assume that they were spots from gushes and squirts from a naked PF.

As the whole machine was grimy I started of with a squirt and wipe of Mr. Muscle. This removed the grime but made the spots more obvious. It was already obvious that some serious cleaning and polishing would be necessary anyway, so I got progressively more aggressive. The result was the lacquer coat being worn away and the spots staying! It would seem that with the passage of time, the coffee spots had combined chemically with the lacquer coating

In the end I stopped faffing and following consultations [email protected] the machine was totally dismantled down to the last washer and taken to a factory that did stripping/dipping/polishing.

So the warning is, wipe these brass/copper combos clean after every use.

Next up is the lever. That had a patch of wear ahead of the bakelite handle. It was the upper surface only, as if a user had not been using the handle and using the rod instead. The wear made me think it was lacquer covered brass. However, the nice man at the polishing factory ran it on the polishing mops and it seemed as if was a translucent brass coloured lacquer. What was eventually revealed was that it was either a metal plate or lacquer over chromed steel. The nice man pointed out that the chrome was so highly polished, that 'keying' whatever it was, was nigh on impossible and it was no wonder it had worn. So much for a brass and copper La Pav????

I searched the www and the only place I found them was The Espresso Shop. They describe the product as brass, but it was 'out of stock'.

Back to jimbojohn55.

He turned one up in Italy. this was described (after auto translate) as golden. It was also more than twice the price of the standard chrome. But heho, I wanted this machine to be as near as new as possible and parted with 43euros plus post...... ouch

It duly arrived. It looks very brass like, highly polished. Happy. Until I touched it with a magnet.

Yes it was steel plated or otherwise coated.

So the warning is, if you have a usable lever it may be cheaper to look into having it plated or lacquering/etc yourself.

In the course of my searching this product looked promising:

http://customcreationpaints.co.uk/liquid-metal-paint/Liquid-Metal-Rustique/Brass-monkeys-spray-can-paint

And this video: ( I will leave the smutty comments about polishing brass monkeys to others!)


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The brass and copper lanpavonis can be quite frustrating, for example for some crazy reason they lacquer the surfaces, which although nice when new, as soon as you get any water ingress the coating goes milky, they look fabulous stripped back and hand polished, even look nice to be allowed to tarnish and age but each to their own


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

So, at the moment, the plan is to polish, then 'key' lightly with a scouring pad and then lacquer with this:

http://rylardpaints.co.uk/product/incralac-lacquer-for-brass-copper/

I did wonder about leaving it au natural, and now after @coffeechap 's post...

I am tempted.

And it will be easier and cheaper to leave, rather than have to re do lacquering at some point.

Well it would save some money for a wooden handle/tap/brass drip plate upgrade!

Nearly there....


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Interesting its steel under the brass / lacquer I suppose it makes sense as it would be tricky for the joint at the fork to be strong enough if it was brass.

Thinking logically about this there is probably a market for repro of the earlier type pre 75 handles with the cast fork and screw on handle.

will be interesting to see how you get on with the lacquer - ive just used clear coat in the past but it doesn't last.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

jimbojohn55 said:


> Interesting its steel under the brass / lacquer I suppose it makes sense as it would be tricky for the joint at the fork to be strong enough if it was brass.
> 
> Thinking logically about this there is probably a market for repro of the earlier type pre 75 handles with the cast fork and screw on handle.
> 
> will be interesting to see how you get on with the lacquer - ive just used clear coat in the past but it doesn't last.


Might clear powder coat be an option for a hard wearing finish?


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

I think it is - same as they use on some alloy wheels

BTW Ive some brass dome nuts on order to do a some single hole steam tips


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Might clear powder coat be an option for a hard wearing finish?


I am leaning more and more towards coffeechap's suggestion above.

On taking this one to pieces it was apparent that the varnish becomes worn at wear points like where the grouphead and PF meet and the lever pivots. Then it is just a question of time before it becomes unsightly with cracks and flakes near to those areas, and damp getting in to make things worse.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Ive been curious as to how a pav would look with just a mat nickel plating - there is a very intriguing picture on Franseco's site that looks like a very early pav in a mat silver finish - however as the base matches the boiler exactly it may have just been stove enamelled in silver for early marketing. I also think that the pre Pavoni models by Co-fer and DP in 58 and 59 were always chromed so it may have just been for marketing purpose by Pavoni to make it easier to photograph and give a clearer image when printed in black and white in the low res magazines and newspapers of the time when they bought the design http://www.francescoceccarelli.eu/lapavoni_storia_eng.htm

There does appear to be one other example of this Mat version on the pavoni history pages - about half way down the screen - this is a later model with drip tray and sight glass 65-73

interesting though


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

jimbojohn55 said:


> I think it is - same as they use on some alloy wheels
> 
> BTW Ive some brass dome nuts on order to do a some single hole steam tips


I'd happily buy one off you if you are interested in selling them.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I'd happily buy one off you if you are interested in selling them.


Will give you a shout once I've done them


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

During the dismantle I found the 17mm spanner from the below set got on to the inside boiler nuts of the steam tap and safety valve via the boiler filler hole. This would avoid entry via a removed heater element and subsequent gasket replacements.










https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-Pc-Offset-Mini-Stubby-Ring-Metric-Spanner-Garage-Workshop-Tool-Set-6-17-mm/401599100984?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Batian said:


> During the dismantle I found the 17mm spanner from the below set got on to the inside boiler nuts of the steam tap and safety valve via the boiler filler hole. This would avoid entry via a removed heater element and subsequent gasket replacements.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Worthwhile investment given the gasket cost £5.16 plus postage.


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Worthwhile investment given the gasket cost £5.16 plus postage.


I have just checked some of Ferrari Espresso prices a bit cheaper, but not much! When its time, I will also check here: (courtesy of @jimbojohn55 )

https://www.lamacchinadelcaffe.com/en/la-pavoni.html


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Batian said:


> I have just checked some of Ferrari Espresso prices a bit cheaper, but not much! When its time, I will also check here: (courtesy of @jimbojohn55 )
> 
> https://www.lamacchinadelcaffe.com/en/la-pavoni.html


Yep. On the FB group I think you also get a 5% discount. All good whilst we are still in the EU I suppose.

Last June I bought two of those gaskets from the espresso shop, and they were £2.16 each. In less than one year, an increase of 138%.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yep. On the FB group I think you also get a 5% discount. All good whilst we are still in the EU I suppose.
> 
> Last June I bought two of those gaskets from the espresso shop, and they were £2.16 each. In less than one year, an increase of 138%.


It could easily they ran out of stock & found a huge price hike themselves since they last bought some.


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

Or it could be a market reaction to the @jimbojohn factor?

All the CFUK folk inspired and rushing to refurbish La Pavs to their former glory has resulted in the price hike!

Hoisted by our own petard.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I can probably get Jens to do us a deal on pavoni parts?


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

I have read that some of the copper looking boilers are in fact copper plating over a chrome or nickel plate , like the lever . I would be very gentle with the boiler polishing unless you know it is solid as copper plating is generally very soft .. You might know this already .


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> I can probably get Jens to do us a deal on pavoni parts?


If this becomes a possible, please keep me in the loop, thank you.


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

Would Admin/Mods please remove this post as somehow I have managed to duplicate it.

Thank you.


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

Nicknak said:


> I have read that some of the copper looking boilers are in fact copper plating over a chrome or nickel plate , like the lever . I would be very gentle with the boiler polishing unless you know it is solid as copper plating is generally very soft .. You might know this already .


Thanks. That thought had occurred to me and the nice man doing the strip. We checked with a magnet and was not steel. The inside also had the blue colour in places, suggesting copper salts.

It was not even tinned on the inside which surprised the nice man. He thought being used for food stuffs, it would require tinning. All being well, the dip will eat the lacquer and the mops will knock it off.

So fingers crossed. And if it all goes **** up, at least I will be able to warn everyone !

Most expensive scenario will be to re plate. The nice man does not do copper plating and he says it is not very good long term. He does do nickel and nickel silver though.......

Nice man does plenty of antique motor car/cycle parts, so they have the knack!


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

What is really needed is someone clever with direct access to the seal manufacturers in Italy rather than retailers- ive tried a couple of times to register as a business with the big commercial parts suppliers in Italia but with no joy as yet.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

@Batian the boiler will be either copper or brass I don't know what they start off as . Brass can become reddish on the inside if the zinc is leached out. Reading some posts when I wanted the brass copper one after a google search copper La Pavoni suggested they chromed / nickel plated and then copper plated some .. I think modern ones are all copper bodied polished and lacquered according to the instruction manual ..

Whilst reading this thread I thought it wouldn't be that difficult to make the lever in solid brass . 12mm brass rod threaded and then a brass end to it made from inch square brass . When I make room in my garage to get to my metal lathe I will try to make one and try it on one of my machines to see how it stand up to levering .


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> I can probably get Jens to do us a deal on pavoni parts?


I am soon going to be spending, any movement on this one?

Thanks

@coffeechap


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

Polite bump re above post!



Batian said:


> I am soon going to be spending, any movement on this one?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> @coffeechap


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

After a few weeks wait, I was able to collect the base, boiler and group-head from the metal polishers.

I was able to contact Peter at Avicenna's Solutions. He warned me that he had never come across a base that was brass and that they had all been plated or painted steel and to be careful with the polishing.

This one is definitely brass or a similar alloy!

I did the smaller items with a entry level bench grinder/polisher and a Dremmel type tool.

In a hurry to assemble the polished items for the photo-call, I missed a couple of things among the wrappings.

What? (no prizes!)

And the pre polish pics

























All I have to do is try and remember how to put it all back together again....


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Apologies, what do you need for this, looks beautiful by the way


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

Looking really nice .. Are you going to lacquer or not ?

The brass looking lever came up well .


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> Apologies, what do you need for this, looks beautiful by the way


List yet to be completed, but all the seals for starters. Then a new sight glass and cover.

Then, as budget allows, a brass bottomless portafilter, brass drip tray cover and perhaps wooden handles. I may have a go at the drip tray myself, especially if I find they are not brass but lacquered steel!

@Nicknak

The brass looking lever is new. The other lever is the original with its lacquer removed. It came to me with worn patches and was an eyesore. I would not have bought a new one if I had known that brass did not mean brass but meant brass coloured! (see earlier posts)

At present I do not intend to lacquer, but let it attain a patina. I thought the lacquer would be nice, but from the experience of this machine, the lacquer wears/chips at places like the lever to group point and the PF to group points. Then the water creeps in and spreads under the lacquer. I can always change my mind and lacquer, but its a major job getting it off when it goes chipped and milky!


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

@Batian it will look lovely when put back together .. I think you are right with the lacquer . I have just read beeswax or carnuabu wax or linseed oil can protect copper , never tried it .. I have nearly finished the brass lever I'm making .

i will let you know how it works .


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

This may have potential?

Does anybody have experience with it ?

https://www.rustins.ltd/rustins/our-products/renovators-for-metal/jade-oil


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I think just letting it age naturally will also look really good over time


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Ok gasket kit is 25 euro plus shipping an getting thw price of sight glass


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

It does seem a shame to spend all that time to get it like that , and then get green/blue streaks on the copper .


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> Ok gasket kit is 25 euro plus shipping an getting thw price of sight glass


Please add a front badge to the list.

Thanks. @coffeechap


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

A cautionary tale and tip!

When I was dismantling the machine I took a great deal of care, particularly when working with the boiler. It always had several layers of old towel to prevent knocks dents and dings etc. When not working on the machine everything was wrapped in bubble wrap etc.

Last week came the big day of putting everything back together. I decided to start with the sight glass mounts as I figured this would be easier before attaching the boiler to the base. When these were removed, my spanners had no problem reaching in from the bottom of the boiler. Reassembly was different. The bottom bracket was fine, but the top one was a pig. I could not get enough of a turn to be able to remove spanner and continue. Strange as when taking it off I did not have a problem. What I had to do was use different spanners of the same size alternatively. This meant one of the spanners was to short and was fully inside the boiler and I was have to grip with just finger tips. It resulted in several slips off the nut and jerks so that the spanner collided with the inside of the boiler.............

Oh dear.

Brackets mounted, line up tested with the glass tube--------then I saw the dints from the inside out. (expletives deleted )

I was gutted. The boiler had been near perfect and I had really goofed.

Cost of new boiler...£230 plus carriage....more expletives!

Back in the day, I was a skuleboy trombonist and I can remember dents being removed from brass instruments quite often.

Google was my friend and I found a local trumpet maker. A week later the boiler is back, and like new.

It was not cheap, but it was a whole lot cheaper than a new boiler.

AND he had to make a tool to do the job. Apparently the boiler metal is about twice as thick as a brass instrument and that presented a few problems.

He did show me the tool, so if any one fancies a go at dent removal, I can give you a description.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Just to pass on a couple of things that Batain came across in his restoration, he has left these shores for the moment but messaged me about a couple more details that he came across - Ive seen the picture if the finished machine and have to say its one of the best restorations I have ever seen - absolutely mouth wide open stunning

Also a couple of warnings you may wish to pass on.

1)The brass drip tray plate sold by the espressoshop and others is not brass, it's painted steel...like the brass lever !

2) The PF's sold by Eddessia Espresso on eBay and other places now come threadlocked as standard. There is no way to release the threadlock in the plastic handle without destruction.

However, its not all bad news, if a customer declares at the time of purchase, they will send one that has not been threadlocked..


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

jimbojohn55 said:


> Just to pass on a couple of things that Batain came across in his restoration, he has left these shores for the moment but messaged me about a couple more details that he came across - Ive seen the picture if the finished machine and have to say its one of the best restorations I have ever seen - absolutely mouth wide open stunning
> 
> Also a couple of warnings you may wish to pass on.
> 
> ...


 Stop teasing ?.. and ...


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