# Any thoughts on Sage Dual Boiler



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I saw Glenn's write-up on the machine from last year, which seemed to be very detailed, and looked quite a positive review, but seems like it never quite got updated and there's not much about taste, long term ease of use, reliability etc.

Other than that I saw the thread that led up to Glenn being offered a review machine, and a couple of threads about cleaning.

Just wondered if there's any sort of consensus on what people think of it. And how many people are there on here that have one (or have used one?)

So far it seems as if people are naturally suspicious of a Breville product with celeb endorsement at £1200. But how good is it? Is it worth £1k? £800? (compared to other machines at those price points?)

I'm only a humble noob with a Classic and a Mazzer Mini, just wondering if I should be aspiring to one of these. Though I haven't exactly mastered the kit I have.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Gary **** did a review thread, try and find that


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Glenn's review here

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?12664-Sage-by-Heston-Blumenthal-the-Dual-Boiler%99-Q-amp-A&highlight=Sage+brewtus

Gary's review versus brewtus here

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?13429-Sage-DB-versus-Expo-Brewtus-Shootout-Results&highlight=Sage+brewtus


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I'm sure Charlie will also be very happy to talk about his experiences with the sage


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Gary's and Charlie's views on it will be worth while. It had a different group and can be manipulated to do different things than a e61/machine. Not inherently better it worse just different. But they will be the ones to give you some real perspective in it.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Remember, Glenn's was a loan machine and the other two heavily subsidised. I am not saying that influenced their findings. I am asking if any of them wanted one machine and had £1200, would they really buy a Paxo?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

In fairness to Gary and Charlie the offer of a discounted machine wasn't touted until after the demo period - agree if you gave them £1200 in readies the sage might not be the first choice


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

hotmetal said:


> Just wondered if there's any sort of consensus on what people think of it. And how many people are there on here that have one (or have used one?)
> 
> So far it seems as if people are naturally suspicious of a Breville product with celeb endorsement at £1200. But how good is it? Is it worth £1k? £800? (compared to other machines at those price points?)
> 
> I'm only a humble noob with a Classic and a Mazzer Mini, just wondering if I should be aspiring to one of these. Though I haven't exactly mastered the kit I have.


When you get your opinions on the Breville, make sure you understand how many other machines that person has used, for how long, whether they have reviewed the internals (personally inspected) of all the machines they are comparing it with. This way you will get some context in your comparisons. When you get peoples "reviews", look for a bit of depth in the review and think about what's important to you from a machine.*I have not used the BDB (Sage Dual Boiler), so cannot comment on that specific machine, or how it compares to others. *

DFK is correct and Breville actually dumped quite a few "bargain" machines on the market to "reviewers"....in this way they hoped to garner many positive reviews (comments). As always, bear in mind those celebrity endorsements have to be paid for, ultimately by the purchasers. Money that goes to those costs, of course, doesn't go into the machine.

Forums are a difficult place to garner opinion from...many have only used 1 or 2 machines and are understandably enthusiastic about the machine they have chosen, especially when it costs big money.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

...or if they've been given it (or given it for next to nothing)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Do all reviewers get cheap or discounted machines then?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Do all reviewers get cheap or discounted machines then?


I think it was just on the initial batch of review units when they released the machine.

Although I imagine Breville have little use for a used machine, if they were still handing out units for review it may well be offered for a discount after.

I remember back in the old days of ebay when people made 'guides' on how to get free electronics by claiming you were a reviewer and that the companies never asked for the stuff back (they usually do on high value goods)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Perhaps at some point we might get an opinion on it from someone that's used one


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Perhaps at some point we might get an opinion on it from someone that's used one


Don't think you'll have to wait too long


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Do all reviewers get cheap or discounted machines then?


Charlie and Gary were very open about their heavily discounted machines, and that was the right thing to do.

It is an issue of honesty and integrity, all the more so because of the nature of this forum.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I've used the Sage DB on a few occasions but I do not own one or have any reason to be biased in either direction. My findings will be subjective and they are my opinions only.

Positives

Quick Heat up times

Easy Descailing

Programmable pre-infusion times/pressures

Programmable/Manual brew times and easy group flushing

Almost no effort to get nicely textured milk

Makes good espresso

Easy water refill from the front and easy to see when low

Negatives

Didn't feel like a £1200 machine to me

A little noisy (compared to my rotary)

The shots I've made/tasted are maybe a little thin when compared to my E61

All this said, if you want something a little flexible but dead easy to use then it's a great machine. There are many questions about how durable it is but the warranty provided seems to suggest that the manufacturer is standing by the product.

I'd say find one to have a play on before forking out the cash....

Spence


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Cheers for your replies everyone.

DavecUK, yes, I totally agree, and I'm innately celeb-phobic so the Heston factor is more a turn-off than an attraction (I like the guy but what's he got to do with espresso? £££). I suspect trying to find comparable info from people who have had these things apart and who understand engineering is like looking for a needle in a haystack, but you're right - that's what one would need to put opinions into context. Tricky!

Spence, in your pros/cons analysis, the pros sound pretty good. The cons wouldn't necessarily worry me (I think, as I haven't tasted its output and I'd imagine it's better than my Classic). Noise isn't much of a factor as the Classic is fairly noisy, and if I did buy one it would be only if it were under a grand, so not feeling like a £1.2k machine might be skewed by the fact that I'd paid less.

In all honesty, much as I'd love to, I doubt I'll be in a position to pay £1k+ for an espresso machine. But if it became possible to get a Sage DB for, say, £900, I suppose it might be a better option than an HX at that price?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The question I would ask myself, is how long is the machine realistically going to last, once outside the warranty period? Look at the Vario if you ant to see what happens when you try to make a house from a cardboard box!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> The question I would ask myself, is how long is the machine realistically going to last, once outside the warranty period? Look at the Vario if you ant to see what happens when you try to make a house from a cardboard box!


Can I ask if this is just based on the exterior of the machine dfk?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> Can I ask if this is just based on the exterior of the machine dfk?


Dylan, not sure if you are referring to the VArio or the Sage? The point I am making with regards to the Sage, is their use of lightweight materials, non industry standard parts (E61 for example), the fact that as far as I know, there is no parts stocking policy and faulty machines are not fixed but replaced. Added to this, the fact that the Sage is full of complicated electronic circuitry.

The VArio again, was ground breaking but used a lot of plastic in its build, with complicated electronics once again. the early models were beset by problems such as the two adjustment levers bouncing up and down, which I believe still happens.

That is what I based my comments on


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Out of interest Have you owned or used either btw


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Out of interest, I have never touched a Paxo and have owned 4 Varios at differing times. Actually, thats a lie. When I was at Bb a few weeks ago, I declined the chance to use one


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Dylan, not sure if you are referring to the VArio or the Sage? The point I am making with regards to the Sage, is their use of lightweight materials, non industry standard parts (E61 for example), the fact that as far as I know, there is no parts stocking policy and faulty machines are not fixed but replaced. Added to this, the fact that the Sage is full of complicated electronic circuitry.
> 
> The VArio again, was ground breaking but used a lot of plastic in its build, with complicated electronics once again. the early models were beset by problems such as the two adjustment levers bouncing up and down, which I believe still happens.
> 
> That is what I based my comments on


More specifically the Sage DB, I only ask as I dont have the first clue of its internals, but I know some people on here do. I completely agree that anything untested is a risk, especially from a company the size of Breville who we know will cut cost at every corner they can.

That said there are plenty of examples of non-e61 groups and the body was generally commented on to be high quality, even if it was plastic. A plastic exterior also does not stop the recommendation of the Oscar, I know this is a bit different as its well tested (both the company and machine) but individually neither thing is a direct indicator of a shorter life or lower quality. If thats right about not being able to fix them, that is obviously also a concern!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

We did all this to death last year! I think the conclusion was that the machine was well capable of making a good cuppa, and not even in expert hands. Who is going to buy it? Probably not the enthusiast but the implulse I want something shiny brigade. Only time will tell if it stands the test of time, which always leads you back to the question, if you had £1200 would you buy one of these or a proper machine. I am not being derogatory but realistic. If you take a well looked after machine, sold on the forum, up to about 3 or 4 years old fetch around 60 to 75% of purchase price. Another fact, is the electronic cartridge which gives such a fast heat up, but, it cannot be replaced so once it goes you are knackered.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

D_Evans said:


> More specifically the Sage DB, I only ask as I dont have the first clue of its internals, but I know some people on here do. I completely agree that anything untested is a risk, especially from a company the size of Breville who we know will cut cost at every corner they can.


Its not the breville that make toasters tho but the australian breville which has more of a background in coffee- hence the name change here.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Anyway opinions based on using the machine anyone?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I've tasted a couple of shots from the sage and thought they were fantastic.

My personal preference is that I didn't like that amount of plastic

.....am I rhyming? Not intentional.

I think Spence's pro and cons are a good snapshot of the machine.

Would recommend you try one and speak to someone who's who's owned one.

If your looking at used, I'd also look at other DB you can pick up "used" for approx £850 ish mark.


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Gary made me a flat white few months back and the milk was superb from his Sage.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Lets be clear.......I am saying they are good machines........I am also asking would you invest £1200 in one?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

OK to answer DFK's question, if given £1200 in my hot and grubby little hand would I NOW go out and buy a Sage DB. The longer I have had the machine the better I have gotten to know it, as one would expect, and on balance yes I would go out and spend the money on another because otherwise I would miss the flexibility of the machine, and would have to be forking out at least £3k to buy something that , in my opinion, is a better more capable machine. That said I still believe Breville(Australia)/ Sage got the pricing wrong and would have been better off selling the machine for £1k and having the "white gloves" thing available as an additional extra. if you bought one from John Lewis I do believe that for £25 you can extend the 2 year warranty- where else can you purchase any espresso machine with a no quibbles 3 year replacement warranty? Coffeeclassicsdirect are Sage's appointed service agents and as such carry parts for the machine, including replacement heater cartridges for the group.

I haven't yet removed the top off my machine but have seen plenty of photographs of the cut away models they have and other shots from owners on Coffeesnobs, and they do indeed look very well put together, every part that hot water touches is made from stainless steel, including the boilers. Chinese made does not mean that it is badly built, I have visited Chinese electronics factories and they can be, when built to proper quality standards, better than most in Europe. I would guarantee to you that no matter how much you pay for any espresso machine with some form of electronics in it, it will contain Chinese made parts, that is the reality of the world today. Being frank here the Italians do not have the greatest reputation in the world for the quality of their workmanship, particularly in the electrical/ electronic department. I do have experience in QA and test and inspection of extremely expensive electronic goods, so I believe I am capable of making this judgement, I would also cite El Carajillo's recent experience with Quickmill and Dave's (CC) comment in another thread regarding not being that impressed with the build quality of the Rocket machine he owned.

Breville(Australia) do have a good reputation for their espresso machines in the Southern hemisphere and have been making them for at least 20 years that I am aware of. Both the original and current versions of the DB were designed with input from experienced home and professional baristas and people pretty well versed in espresso machine design. If you want a machine with the flexibility that it offers at a sensible price then compromises have to be made, a nice shiny stainless steel box is no guarantee a machine is will made or built to last, and being honest how many of us ever move our machines other than to clean them and/or fill the water tank, so having an exterior that is built like a tank isn't at all necessary, the Sage DB exterior case is made from 4 separate pieces, the base of the machine is made from a composite material, not a cheap and nasty plastic, the mid section ( the brushed stainless section) is the outer panel not simply a thin sheet over plastic, the top section that is the cup warmer and front fill lid is die cast aluminium, and then the section that holds the group and water and steam spots etc is made from a mix of composite and stainless. The type of electronics used in it are all of a proven nature, PID control over temperature is well proven use in industry and consumer goods, as is flow control. No-one slates Bezzera, or Gaggia for using electronic group heater cartridges, so to me the machine not having an E61 group is nether here nor there- no-one has a go at the LM GS3 for not having an E61, and plenty of machines out there don't use them either. Both pumps the machines contain are Italian made pretty standard vibratory pumps as used in many expensive machines, the pump noise is also fairly quite for a vibe pump machine.

In use the Sage DB is either as easy or complex as you want to make it, it has already been said how easy it is to get superbly textured milk using it. Initially peoples observations about them were that is produces a very very slightly thinner shot than an E61 machine, but there are ways to sort this out and produce nice thick gloopy shots by manipulating the pressure and preinfusion. The one thing that still drives me nuts about it is the power saving function which cannot be over-ridden, but I am at home all day and want the machine ready to use when I want a coffee not half an hour to 45 minutes later, so I just dab the buttons every time I'm in the kitchen to stop it going to sleep. Changing the shot temperature is somewhat more intuitive than with other PID equipped machines as you are adjusting to the shot temperature not a number with an offset, the built in wake up timer is a nice function as is the automated backflushing, I haven't yet descaled mine, but it does have a program for assisting with this , I believe Gary has done his so is better placed to talk about this, it has front mounted easily accessible drain taps for both boilers that simply require a small screwdriver and the removal of a rubber bung to use, and they empty directly into the drip tray. Other things worth noting are the fact that it has 2 PIDs, one on the brew boiler and one on the group head heater, so in theory is far more accurate than a single PID equipped E61 machine, the brew boiler is also supplied with water pre-heated to 80 degrees C via an HX in the steam boiler, the same as other more expensive machines. It also has another nice little feature in that there is a separate pump to fill the steam boiler so if you are pulling shots and steaming simultaneously then there is no danger of the pump cutting the shot to refill the steam boiler.

@ DaveC, Dave it really doesn't matter how many or what machines one has used in the past in order to assess the quality of the coffee made, in fact you don't need to own any coffee making equipment to know what a good cup of coffee tastes like, and in the end that should be all that matters- does it make a good coffee. For me the provision of a factory backed 2 year warranty says that the company are standing by their product, instead of offering bought out warranties.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Lets be clear.......I am saying they are good machines........I am also asking would you invest £1200 in one?


Nope. I might think about one for half that price (maybe a little more) but that's just me. I prefer the shiny metal look. If you can pick one up on the cheap and want something low maintenance then it would be hard to beat IMHO. These breville machines have been made in Aus for quite some time and have always been held in high regards, even before baldy man came on the scene


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Ah yes Baldy over complicating cooking man, just to be clear about this, for some reason unknown to any sane person they actually use his name to endorse every Sage product, which is kind of ironic given the fact he uses Nespresso machines in his Michelin starred establishments. Generally speaking the use of his name on a product would put me right off buying it.

To be 100% clear about this, both Gary and I, had already posted, and did not change any of our opinions about the Sage DB once we had been offered the machines at a substantial discount and as has already been said we were 100% up front and open about the fact we got the machines for a price only a moron would have turned down, so no financial inducement was made in order to get a good review from either of us.

I've had mine on my bench for 9 months now and had absolutely no trouble with it, I may at some point do a 9 months on mini review and sum up.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Charlie, say what you want as an owner. I still simply do not believe that you would shell out £1200 of your hard earned for something that will have little residual value in years to come. I also agree wholeheartedly with you on price. I think if they dropped the endorsement and price down to £799, few would argue, but at £1200 it simply is not worth it, and that sir, is my argument.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Same rehashed tiresome debate......


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

As you said before dfk, I think we have done this argument to death 9 months back.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I want to go through it all again. Every single post of it.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Well hotmetal

you certainly got some opinions

Some from people that have actually used the machine too









Some from people who haven't and never will

So ...Read , cogitate, hey go and try one , sure JL have them set up to play on ....


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

If my memory serves me well I do believe there are actually quite a few Sage DB owners amongst the less vocal majority of forum members, hopefully one of them will come along and offer their viewpoint as well, as I don't want to get into the whole tiresome debate aspect of the machine again. Just one last point to DFK, David, given that list price on a Cherub is now close to £1k, or maybe even just over, where would your money go Cherub or Sage DB? just for a little perspective.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Noooooooooooooooooooooooo


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

hotmetal said:


> So far it seems as if people are naturally suspicious of a Breville product with celeb endorsement at £1200. But how good is it? Is it worth £1k? £800? (compared to other machines at those price points?)


Bella Batista sell both the Sage and other machines in the £1k bracket. If it's not too far from you, I don't think it'll do you any harm to get some side by side comparisons and take the chance to make some opinions for yourself. At the end of the day it's your money but a bit of hands on experience is never a bad thing IMO


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

As its been hammered with 2000+ shots and been descaled 3 times my Sage has fallen into 50 pieces, leaks, rattles and needs new seals , elements and electrics.

Oh wait, no it hasn't ...doh... its absolutely fine.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If it was a choice between the Paxo and the ugliest pile of crap available to man, I would buy an aeropress


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> If it was a choice between the Paxo and the ugliest pile of crap available to man, I would buy an aeropress


Thanks once again for that well considered and invaluable scientific and opinion

Well are all very grateful for you adding to the debate im sure

And no you wouldn't


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Well. It was hardly a sensible question now was it. Everyone knows I dislike the Sage and the same the Cherub, so why ask the question. I would hardly call it a debate but nice attempt at a put down bootsie baby!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

We know you don't like it

We know you won't buy one

Perhaps leave it at that eh.


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

My spider senses tell me dfk doesn't like Sage - not sure if anyone else is picking up that vibe?

Can we move on now? PLEASE!!!!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> If it was a choice between the Paxo and the ugliest pile of crap available to man, I would buy an aeropress


Whatever happened to your Clever?


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

The big problem is that we have had reports of problems for 2 more "famous" and more expensive double boiler machines, the Rocket R58 and the Verona. So to be honest, is the old technology proven reliable or not? If these reports are a minority, e.g less then 5% then fine but I am not sure this is the case.

Also it seems that one of the "ultimates", the GS/3 needs the occasional service - some mentioned once a year, which if this is the case, I find it unacceptable.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Is that a meat clever


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I still have it. Only used it thrice so far. Brewed is not my favourite method. If I can pick up a grinder for the right price for the Clever I might use it more


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Dave just get the EK and be done with it, trade both the mythos and the k8 in and get the grinder that does it all, no need for two separate espresso grinders and no need to buy a clever dripper grinder, it does it all


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

charris said:


> The big problem is that we have had reports of problems for 2 more "famous" and more expensive double boiler machines, the Rocket R58 and the Verona. So to be honest, is the old technology proven reliable or not? If these reports are a minority, e.g less then 5% then fine but I am not sure this is the case.
> 
> Also it seems that one of the "ultimates", the GS/3 needs the occasional service - some mentioned once a year, which if this is the case, I find it unacceptable.


With most products the negative reports are in the very low percentages, you have to account for the majority of people who have a working machine that they never talk about. People with problems are more vocal.

Every product from cars, to mobile phones, to games consoles to coffee machines have an accepted percentage of faultages. Forums/online communities are a good place to find out when things do get out of hand however.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Dave just get the EK and be done with it, trade both the mythos and the k8 in and get the grinder that does it all, no need for two separate espresso grinders and no need to buy a clever dripper grinder, it does it all


Cue post re making espresso like custard, standing on head , wouldnt buy one even if threatened with a rusty spoon up the bum......

it doesnt make proper coffee ...etc etc etc


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have thought long and hard about an EK43, after all, so far no one who owns one has really mentioned any of its shortcomings so perhaps it does not have any? The ability to switch between the two brew types is fantastic and it is this that keeps on making me thing of buying one. I think if I did, then I would probably do the job properly and buy the twin headed one.......then when I want to drink my annual cup of brewed, I can do it without any inconvenience.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I have thought long and hard about an EK43, after all, so far no one who owns one has really mentioned any of its shortcomings so perhaps it does not have any? The ability to switch between the two brew types is fantastic and it is this that keeps on making me thing of buying one. I think if I did, then I would probably do the job properly and buy the twin headed one.......then when I want to drink my annual cup of brewed, I can do it without any inconvenience.


Ive think ive had some kind of episode.............


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Cue post re making espresso like custard, standing on head , wouldnt buy one even if threatened with a rusty spoon up the bum......
> 
> it doesnt make proper coffee ...etc etc etc


Fenwicks, lying down etc


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

A repeat episode?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> A repeat episode?


I had this weird hallucination about a post you had put up re an EK ......


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Which one was that then? My memory fails me!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Which one was that then? My memory fails me!


Its like an episode of dallas

Ill wake up in the morning

it will all have been a dream....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Wanna share a shower bootsie! Just in case anyone was unsure, I would rather insert a rusty spoon up my bum (not my suggestion) than allow one of those spice grinders on my property


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I do not want video evidence of this act


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Wanna share a shower bootsie! Just in case anyone was unsure, I would rather insert a rusty spoon up my bum (not my suggestion) than allow one of those spice grinders on my property


and i rather have the pleasure of a spoon than the pleasure of a shower with you.........

Another post saved for when you eventually capitulate and get one .....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> I do not want video evidence of this act


Ah the temptation to mod that post and take the NOT out ...... lol


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

You will be waiting a long long time then! I am a leader, not a follower. No matter what I think about the EK, since I did not get one at the start, my pride would not let me buy one now, and if I did, I would not tell anyone (well, possibly you, potential shower buddy.......get that spoon ready!). But, you can sleep safe in the knowledge, that I do truly hate them........LOL


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

after recent running around looking at new potential machines one of the ones on my list was the Breville but there were a few things that put me off as a long term replacement for my Expobar, one was the serviceability of it, its a black box item IE they do not want users being able to fix/repair their machines and spare parts are unique to that machine unlike most generic E61 Hx or duel boiler machines that use readily available/interchangeable/industry standard components.

i was told that to replace the heating element once out of warranty it would cost in the region of £250 as it would have to go back Sage but did include a full service! it has cost less to have changed all three elements in a classic, rancilio silvia and the Expobar for less than this one machine , this did not seem good value.

if you want a truly un-bias opinion of the unit, try reading some of the Australian coffee forums as they had the machine nearly two years before us and now the good, bad and ugly about it are coming to light after real long term use.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

So in summary

Some people like the Sage

Some people love them

Some people post about them alot

Some people hate them

Dfk and ek wont ever be in the same room

Mrb and Dfk wont ever share a shower

Some spoons will be bent in places they shouldnt

Clear ?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk - Mine for sale won't be around long . I dare you


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

RobD said:


> after recent running around looking at new potential machines one of the ones on my list was the Breville but there were a few things that put me off as a long term replacement for my Expobar, one was the serviceability of it, its a block box item IE they do not want users being able to repair their machines and spare parts are unique to that machine unlike most generic E61 Hx or duel boiler machines that use readily available/interchangeable/industry standard components.
> 
> i was told that to replace the heating element once out of warranty it would cost in the region of £250 as it would have to go back Sage but did include a full service! it has cost less to have changed all three elements in a classic, rancilio silvia and the Expobar for less than this one machine , this did not seem good value.
> 
> if you want a truly un-bias opinion of the unit, try reading some of the Australian coffee forums as they had the machine nearly two years before us and now the good, bad and ugly about it are coming to light after real long term use.


A small note that the Aussies had the previous model well before us, the 900, not the 920, which did not have the ability to descale at home (Does Aussie water even have scale?) amongst other things. But it would provide a good basis for how much hassle it is to get repairs done when you need to.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If I bought it, I would immediately take it to a very tall hotel, and drop it out of the window, rock and roll style whilst singing My Generation and thinking that I had got rid of one of them buggers!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> You will be waiting a long long time then! I am a leader, not a follower. No matter what I think about the EK, since I did not get one at the start, my pride would not let me buy one now, and if I did, I would not tell anyone (well, possibly you, potential shower buddy.......get that spoon ready!). But, you can sleep safe in the knowledge, that I do truly hate them........LOL


More of a pied piper than a leader.......









Perger is my messiah

Worship the perg...


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> If I bought it, I would immediately take it to a very tall hotel, and drop it out of the window, rock and roll style whilst singing My Generation and thinking that I had got rid of one of them buggers!


Ill knock a tenner off if you do that


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Now, that does sound a bargain. Why can't you be more like Dylan in this matter. I dont suppose you can spray it blue for me, then I would give it serious consideration!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Does your sight improve when you put your glasses on, and are you wearing them now, Mrs Richards?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> If I bought it, I would immediately take it to a very tall hotel, and drop it out of the window, rock and roll style whilst singing My Generation and thinking that I had got rid of one of them buggers!


 Wouldn't you be tempted to grind some beans first ?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Oh good lord! I didn't expect that my question would provoke this kind of response! And how we've ended up with another Ek43 or bust thread I don't know! I wasn't a member of this forum when the 2 review threads originally happened and somehow they didn't come up in the search I did. But still, lively banter (that stops before flaming) is what adds to the entertainment of a forum. So thanks to all who've posted, especially with useful info or links.

As for the silent majority who have no problems, it's been said on the bike forums I'm on that one could easily conclude that hospitals are the most dangerous places on earth add they're full of sick and injured, so a forum will always have a reality distortion field. But it's also the best place to find experiences (good or bad), or links to other sources of info.

I'd kind of formed the opinion that while this machine was not aimed at the purist enthusiasts or professional barista, it did a lot of things right and if the price was right (eg 800 not 1.2k) then it might be the more sensible choice rather than something like an Expobar DB which would be nearer a grand and possibly not as easy to use. Although to be honest, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder), if I was able to spend 1k on coffee making gear I'd be more tempted by one of the more traditional looking machines like the Brewtus for example.

Like I say, I have some way to go before I can say I know enough to warrant upgrading. But I am interested to know what people think so that should an opportunity arise to upgrade, I don't miss out on a great deal because the machine didn't look suitably chromey and Italian. I'm all for function before form, and have seen so much hifi gear sold on looks rather than sound, but now I'm in that place where in my ignorance I'd be more likely to buy a machine that looked the part than one which would be better to use but looks a bit like a modern bit of electronic gadgetry. I've probably answered my own question - I shouldn't upgrade until o could say hand on heart that I'd actually get the benefit.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Thecatlinux said:


> Wouldn't you be tempted to grind some beans first ?


Thats a great idea, but, baked or kidney?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Does your sight improve when you put your glasses on, and are you wearing them now, Mrs Richards?


Lost me ............

Where's me washboard?


----------



## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> So in summary...


Classic!

Proper laugh out loud moment.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Hahaha. I know what I am rabbiting on about. Perhaps you are too young for Fawlty Towers!


----------



## RobD (May 2, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> A small note that the Aussies had the previous model well before us, the 900, not the 920, which did not have the ability to descale at home (Does Aussie water even have scale?) amongst other things. But it would provide a good basis for how much hassle it is to get repairs done when you need to.


I bought a verona over a Duel boiler Expobar because of the rotary pump so im not the best judge of machines







time will tell.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Apologies to the OP..........we got carried away again.........


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Does your sight improve when you put your glasses on, and are you wearing them now, Mrs Richards?


Im lost too....is it from Are you being served Or Mind your language?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Im lost too....is it from Are you being served Or Mind your language?


Kidd is more young mr grace i think .....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

In Fawlty Towers, Mrs Richards was a battle axe who was deaf, but refused to turn her hearing aid on because it used up the batteries.....my reference was a little obscure!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Or a Captain Peacock?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)




----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> In Fawlty Towers, Mrs Richards was a battle axe who was deaf, but refused to turn her hearing aid on because it used up the batteries.....my reference was a little obscure!


Yes...remember the one, Basil fools her into turning up her hearing aid and then bellows into it. Asking her later "is this a piece of your brain?"


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

hotmetal said:


> Oh good lord! I didn't expect that my question would provoke this kind of response! And how we've ended up with another Ek43 or bust thread I don't know! I wasn't a member of this forum when the 2 review threads originally happened and somehow they didn't come up in the search I did. But still, lively banter (that stops before flaming) is what adds to the entertainment of a forum. So thanks to all who've posted, especially with useful info or links.
> 
> As for the silent majority who have no problems, it's been said on the bike forums I'm on that one could easily conclude that hospitals are the most dangerous places on earth add they're full of sick and injured, so a forum will always have a reality distortion field. But it's also the best place to find experiences (good or bad), or links to other sources of info.
> 
> ...


With a budget just over 1k I would seriously consider both the Sage DB and the Expobar. The extra functionality of the Sage really appeals to me, and if anything simple electronics are more reliable than mechanical parts so I'm not put off by the idea that they are specifically more likely to go wrong. I'm not the biggest fan of the Expobar's looks, and polished stainless steel is a bugger for watermarks, honeslty in my kitchen which is shared with other the Sage would be the harder wearing of the two. Ultimately for me it would come down to the extra functionality and ease of use of the Sage vs the established reliability of the Expobar.

Unfortunately I dont have the budget.


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

Another thing i noticed in my research for a new machine is that just like some other manufactures Sage while using a standard 58mm basket size has its own unique PF design, (has that now changed in the new model?) so you cannot use a £29 naked PF you have to buy thier naked PF @ £69!

And i agree with D_Evans that if the machine was at a more realistic £800 i would have been seriously temped but £1200 when its only $990 in the us = £578 and only the equivalent of £800 in Australia, paying another £400 for the privilege of a grinning Heston on the box doesn't seem like good value for something that has a distinct whiff of the Dualit/Gaggia about it









although i will concede that we pay to much for most consumer items in the UK


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Cool, that's the international market price discrepancy argument...again....I think that's everything covered now? ;-)


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

RobD said:


> Another thing i noticed in my research for a new machine is that just like some other manufactures Sage while using a standard 58mm basket size has its own unique PF design, (has that now changed in the new model?) so you cannot use a £29 naked PF you have to buy thier naked PF @ £69!


Good point - you're always going to pay more for add-ons such as naked portafilters etc when a manufacturer uses a unique (read monopolistic) design.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Oh bugger I thought it might quietly die!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

RobD said:


> And i agree with D_Evans that if the machine was at a more realistic £800 i would have been seriously temped but £1200 when its only $990 in the us = £578 and only the equivalent of £800 in Australia, paying another £400 for the privilege of a grinning Heston on the box doesn't seem like good value for something that has a distinct whiff of the Dualit/Gaggia about it


Not the same model. The BES900 is the lesser price, the 920 is the one sold here. Once you add our taxes and everything the price is similar.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/breville-dual-boiler-espresso-machine-bes920


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

I know coffeechap wants this to die but a little point to note that the import duty on a Coffee machine if applied correctly is 2.7% = Goods nomenclature code: 8516710000 HMRC so if you add that to the US price (and they are making a profit) its till sub £800.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

You can actually use a Gaggia naked portafilter in a Sage DB it just locks in at a weird looking angle because of the position of the lugs but it works well, I used mine like that until I sold my Classic. Re the price of the Sage naked portafilter it's no actually that bad when you consider the price of other stainless steel standard and naked portafilters the LM ones are over £100.

Without going over the entire price things yet again its the same number of units of currency in the USA, Australia and the UK, as you won't be buying one from the USA the price of one there is totally irrelevant, especially as the minimum wage and average wages in the USA are lower than here in the UK so in real terms it's actually more expensive, according to the link Jeebsy posted RRP in the USA is $2,199.99 and the $1299.99 advertised price will be subject to sales tax which varies according to the state you live in, not the place you purchase it from. The only place it is actually cheaper in real terms is Australia because it's also $AU 1200 and the minimum wage there is a lot higher than here or the USA, oddly enough I see no-one ever commenting on the fact that an Italian made espresso machine is usually cheaper to buy in or from Italy !!.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

RobD said:


> I know coffeechap wants this to die but a little point to note that the import duty on a Coffee machine if applied correctly is 2.7% = Goods nomenclature code: 8516710000 HMRC so if you add that to the US price (and they are making a profit) its till sub £800.


Plus VAT, plus shipping, in the end you save ~£100 for something that doesn't work in the UK, you could then buy a massive step up transformer...back to square 1 & untold hassle if you need to return under warranty or take advantage of any insurance cover etc.

The US has the opposite problem, compare the Sage to prices for Euro built machines, assume you live in Texas too, to factor in local sales tax....?

Baggsy "last word", turn around touch the ground 3 times, lock the thread?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

RobD said:


> I know coffeechap wants this to die but a little point to note that the import duty on a Coffee machine if applied correctly is 2.7% = Goods nomenclature code: 8516710000 HMRC so if you add that to the US price (and they are making a profit) its till sub £800.


I think maybe you're forgetting VAT?

Using the dutycalculator.com gives a landed cost of about £1100, still cheaper but maybe not worth it if you have to have it repaired under warrunty.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I dont think locking the thread is the solution, the same questions are bound to come up more than once on the forums from members who weren't here last time. I think its just up to the members who were here last time to not get into the same 'discussions' they were in, but just help answer the questions.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

There's just no respect for "baggsying" things these days...in fact people look at you as if you're a nutter!? Baggsy "not a nutter", turn around touch the ground three times...


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

MWJB said:


> There's just no respect for "baggsying" things these days...in fact people look at you as if you're a nutter!? Baggsy "not a nutter", turn around touch the ground three times...


I think everyone calls shotgun for everything these days ya know.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I had my fingers crossed so your bagsy counts for nothing...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> I think everyone calls shotgun for everything these days ya know.











Hey that works for me...Funkeh!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Tune.

That is all.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Thought I would cut and paste this post from Marian, interesting that the sage keeps getting passed on!

"It is a long time since I have posted but I will pass on my views on this. After not getting on at all with the Sage I originally set out to but a Rocket because it is such a beautiful machine. However, after going out and testing at least twenty machines I was shocked to find that the Expobar Dual boiler gave me everything I needed for a fraction of the price. So I passed the Sage on to my daughter and went ahead with the installation of a rotary pump, plumbed in version of the Expobar. That was about 8 months ago and I couldn't be happier. The dual boiler gives me the ability to steam, produce hot water, make beautifully silky espresso and control all the variables I might wish to control (which in my situation is basically the temperature). Also, it looks nice in my kitchen - important for a female!

So successful has my purchase been, that three friends have followed me into the Expobar market and unplumbed from a large water source such as a carafe of water the results are also impressive. Also, my daughter passed on the Sage to my son and also went for an Expobar and she and her husband love it too. My son is now thinking about getting the dual boiler too. I think for the price it is unbeatable and if you want a rotary pump but not plumbed in, you can run a tube from a large water source - just make sure it is always topped up.

My final note will be on the texture. One of the most important factors for me was the velvet texture of the coffee the Expobar produces."


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Thought I would cut and paste this post from Marian, interesting that the sage keeps getting passed on!
> 
> "It is a long time since I have posted but I will pass on my views on this. After not getting on at all with the Sage I originally set out to but a Rocket because it is such a beautiful machine. However, after going out and testing at least twenty machines I was shocked to find that the Expobar Dual boiler gave me everything I needed for a fraction of the price. So I passed the Sage on to my daughter and went ahead with the installation of a rotary pump, plumbed in version of the Expobar. That was about 8 months ago and I couldn't be happier. The dual boiler gives me the ability to steam, produce hot water, make beautifully silky espresso and control all the variables I might wish to control (which in my situation is basically the temperature). Also, it looks nice in my kitchen - important for a female!
> 
> ...


Yeah and you can make coffee with a great mouthfeel and velvety texture on the Sage IF you know how to.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

To throw some balance on the situation - I wouldn't take an Expo back now, the cup clarity and sweetness is superior with pre infusion once you learn it on the sage.

The difference in the cup quality on the Sage and the NS Aurelia T3 WBC Spec machine in terms of clarity and separated flavours is very very close, again perhaps Sage looses on texture (slightly) but when you have an EK thats last on the priority list.

Who wants to spend several hours flushing boilers manually , when you can press a single button and walk away to return to clean self-descaled machine?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Charliej said:


> Yeah and you can make coffee with a great mouthfeel and velvety texture on the Sage IF you know how to.


its rare I agree with you but on this occasion alas you are speaking truth


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

You can preinfuse with the plumbed rotary expo though Gary !


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> You can preinfuse with the plumbed rotary expo though Gary !


Not with the same degree of control though Dave.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Gary did you ever try to expo with preinfusion ?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Charliej said:


> Not with the same degree of control though Dave.


But Gary's expo and the rotary are poles apart Charlie


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

I would like to add my bit to this. I have the Expobar and I am delighted with it. All of this mouthfeel and clarity thing is a just down to individual tastes. My story is strange as it took me an age to source a seller of the Expobar here despite the fact that it is made just a few hundred kilometres away.

In fact, I am lucky enough to have visited the factory in Gandia where they make the Expobars and the beauty of the machine is that it is a commercial machine. They basically explained that they do not make domestic machines. They have three or four lines which offer slightly different amounts of electronics and capacities depending on the establishment size. The one group machines are basically designed for these very small restaurants and ice cream shops etc we have over here. One of the salespeople explained that they deal with the "mayoristas" who are basically the wholesalers inside Spain. They know they have a market outside Spain in the domestic markets of US, Australia, Holland, UK and Germany. In fact, he says that their pricing policy makes them less desirable as people don't rate them as highly as the Italian machines which he claims they are as good as. (I agree but that's just opinion so I will not comment further).

So this slanging match between the Sage and The Expobar is unfair on both machines as maybe it should be between the cheaper E-61 group machines and the Sage.

In my personal opinion, I have played a little with my brother's Sage, and I found the coffee a little lifeless. I only stay with my brother for a week every few months so I can't say I have experimented all the possibilities. In the end, each to his own. Just as you would never return to the Brewtus now, I don't see myself stepping down from an e-61!

***EDIT- The Sage looks good in my brother's ultra modern kitchen and the cleaning thing is true - it's a pain in the ass to clean the Expobar!***


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I can't see an expo rotary being better than a WBC spec machine


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Can't see the sage being so either


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Can't see the sage being so either


Dave rotary pump or not the Expo does not have anywhere near the control over preinfusion in terms of both time and pressure that the Sage has.

Also for our Spanish friend why is comparing the Expo DB to the Sage DB unfair to both machines, they are both dual boiler, both have at least 1 PID, and to be frank who cares about having an E61 group there are a whole host of machines out there that have a proprietary group, Nuova Simonelli, Brasilia, La Marzocco, Gaggia Commercial machines to name but a few. We, all know you don't like the Sage, however, as you say yourself, you have only "played a little" with a Sage yet one of the better educated palates amongst forum members has unequivocally stated he wouldn't take his Expo back over the Sage, which he obtained to test and compare to the Expobar at forum members request.

For my part I find the Sage can make me as good a cup of coffee as any I have had anywhere in the world when all the stars align and at worst I have only had to sink a handful of shots in 9 months, even friends who aren't into coffee the way any of us are can get elements of the tasting notes without even being told what they are. There are currently only 3 machines I would consider, if I had the money, to replace and improve on the flexibility of the Sage and they are the Vesuvius, the LM GS3 or a one group Slayer.

I'm half tempted to pack the Sage up on Sunday morning and bring it with me to Rave just to prove a point.

I have to admit I do prefer the black version over the standard:

http://www.sageappliances.co.uk/the-dual-boiler-black.html


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Charliej said:


> Dave rotary pump or not the Expo does not have anywhere near the control over preinfusion in terms of both time and pressure that the Sage has.


Can you elaborate on that please?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

" I'm half tempted to pack the Sage up on Sunday morning and bring it with me to Rave just to prove a point"

In the name of god Please don't


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The sage is not gracing this event.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Not feeling the sage love here!!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> The sage is not gracing this event.


Perhaps Charlie can have a pop up outside the event .....


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> " I'm half tempted to pack the Sage up on Sunday morning and bring it with me to Rave just to prove a point"
> 
> In the name of god Please don't


I would be tempted to sack work off and come, just to see the resulting riot.

I can imagine many forum members throwing coffee at one another.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Can you elaborate on that please?


It's kind of simple really Jeebsy, you can set the time and the pressure (as a percentage of 9 BAR) , so if you really want to you can set a ludicrously long preinfusion time and the pressure to say 84% which equates to 7.5 BAR and then just run the pump and pull the entire shot at that pressure or any combination in-between, you can also hold in the "manual" button and the pump will run at the set preinfusion pressure so you can finish off a shot at reduced pressure. You aren't simply limited to your standard pump pressure and the water main pressure.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

D_Evans said:


> I would be tempted to sack work off and come, just to see the resulting riot.
> 
> I can imagine many forum members throwing coffee at one another.


Or lying in a stupified coma......


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I can control the length of preinfusion by holding the lever just past the middle and the pressure by adjusting the prv ( can be done on the fly but I'd limited to line pressure which is as around 6 bar)


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> I can control the length of preinfusion by holding the lever just past the middle and the pressure by adjusting the prv ( can be done on the fly but I'd limited to line pressure which is as around 6 bar)


Which means opening a cupboard door and playing with the PRV, not as easy as setting it up on a screen really, and not everyone will have a maximum of 6 BAR line pressure some will have substantially lower which leaves you kind of fooked if your mains pressure is only 2-3 BAR .It's not even the machine that's doing that either is it really and how accurately can you adjust the prv quickly?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I put this in the same class as the pid - find the setting you like and stick with it. Maybe fanny about with it in a rainy day but it's not one of your 'daily variables'. Two bar preinfusion is fine for me. Point is preinfusion pressure and time can be controlled


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> I put this in the same class as the pid - find the setting you like and stick with it. Maybe fanny about with it in a rainy day but it's not one of your 'daily variables'. Two bar preinfusion is fine for me.


I guess it's a mindset thing I find myself frequently tweaking preinfusion and the pids as a bean ages and as I swap between beans, which is probably a result of having the machine initially for review purposes so I explored what it could really do in depth, and am now used to how you can change the parameters to change the shot.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Perhaps Charlie can have a pop up outside the event .....


Would the Sage survive the journey?

That M6 is bumpy in places


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Spazbarista said:


> Would the Sage survive the journey?
> 
> That M6 is bumpy in places


Stop poking the bear Spaz


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Spazbarista said:


> Would the Sage survive the journey?
> 
> That M6 is bumpy in places


It would survive just as well as your La Spaz, which by the way isn't the best looking machine around either







It did also survive shitty link delivering it to me !!


----------



## Jon V (Feb 24, 2014)

Charliej said:


> It would survive just as well as your La Spaz, which by the way isn't the best looking machine around either


Looks alright from behind! http://www.baristalab.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/600x600/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/i/mini-vivaldi-ii-back.jpg


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Spazmond










Sage


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

What are the side panels of the machine made from?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Charliej said:


> What are the side panels of the machine made from?


Adamantium...


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> Adamantium...


I thought that was only the Captain America limited edition


----------



## RobD (May 2, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> Adamantium...


thats not small bits of compressed Adam Ant is it, for gods sake don't leave it near small children


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

RobD said:


> thats not small bits of compressed Adam Ant is it, for gods sake don't leave it near small children


Well if it was it would at least finally be some useful purpose for Stuart Leslie Goddard.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> Can't see the sage being so either


Ive been using the Aurelia T3 WBC & clima pro as my daytime weapons of choice & some coffees I know really well, i was surprised how well the sage held up in terms of delivering an accurate representation of the flavours


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Ive been using the Aurelia T3 WBC & clima pro as my daytime weapons of choice & some coffees I know really well, i was surprised how well the sage held up in terms of delivering an accurate representation of the flavours


Having read some of the reviews from the Australian and American forums when it first came out its not surprising how good you found it, as its a very well thought out design, just the manufacturing execution of it that may let it down as its made in China, the price and long term ownership/reliability that may put some people off, me included.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)




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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

When I had the rotary expo I did exactly what Jeebsy is saying and could dial down the pressure from 6 to zero at any point during the shot, little bit of a faff but doable, the sage cannot do that, or perhaps it is the missing pressure profiling machine we have all been looking for, no let me see that's the Vesuvius (which will be at the event)


----------



## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

RobD said:


> Having read some of the reviews from the Australian and American forums when it first came out its not surprising how good you found it, as its a very well thought out design, just the manufacturing execution of it that may let it down as its made in China, the price and long term ownership/reliability that may put some people off, me included.


Many of the worlds electronic items are made in China such as phones and tvs pcs consoles etc. doesn't make them shite.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> When I had the rotary expo I did exactly what Jeebsy is saying and could dial down the pressure from 6 to zero at any point during the shot, little bit of a faff but doable, the sage cannot do that, or perhaps it is the missing pressure profiling machine we have all been looking for, no let me see that's the Vesuvius (which will be at the event)


Credit where credits due here CC, the Sage has a featureset unmatched at its price. The vesuvius is well well out of the price range that the vast majority could hope to afford. The electronics on the Sage are not complicated and are something that should have been adopted by the rest of the industry a long time ago.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> Credit where credits due here CC, the Sage has a featureset unmatched at its price. The vesuvius is well well out of the price range that the vast majority could hope to afford. The electronics on the Sage are not complicated and are something that should have been adopted by the rest of the industry a long time ago.


Dylan I wouldn't waste any more time trying to convince some people as they have always seemed pretty closed minded and hostile towards the Sage DB despite never having had one to play for any period of time. Suffice to say that it is an extremely capable machine that can certainly produce the results where it counts- in the cup.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> When I had the rotary expo I did exactly what Jeebsy is saying and could dial down the pressure from 6 to zero at any point during the shot, little bit of a faff but doable, the sage cannot do that, or perhaps it is the missing pressure profiling machine we have all been looking for, no let me see that's the Vesuvius (which will be at the event)


Being able to do that is more than a bit of a faff unless you have the prv positioned right next to the machine, and once again you are still limited by whatever mains line pressure you have and not everywhere has the same pressure, many have much lower.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Charliej said:


> Dylan I wouldn't waste any more time trying to convince some people as they have always seemed pretty closed minded and hostile towards the Sage DB despite never having had one to play for any period of time. Suffice to say that it is an extremely capable machine that can certainly produce the results where it counts- in the cup.


I know, I can't help getting pulled in, debating the ins and outs of the Sage DB is like heroin.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

In other news about actual coffee : Guatemala and Kenya, yayyyyyyy


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## HotLatte (Oct 8, 2014)

Wonder how consistent the SAGE DB is in producing shots after shots as well as texturing milk to serve say 6-12 cups in a row, especially when it compares to the Expobar?

This could be my deciding factor between the two machines. It would be nice if anyone from each side could share their experience. Many thanks.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I haven't used either but firstly ... 6-12 cups each?

These are home machines so they will both need some small recovery time to make a number of drinks say 12 " double shots " they aren't commercial one groups

If you need a machine to regularly do that , 10 plus drinks , back to back then perhaps you need a one group .

If items one off once a week then these will be fine , again users can tell you if and what short recovery time they need

What setting are you thinking of using these machines in ..

If you read Gary's brewtus v sage review then it infers that the sage makes great great milk but takes a little longer to do it .


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## HotLatte (Oct 8, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> I haven't used either but firstly ... 6-12 cups each?
> 
> These are home machines so they will both need some small recovery time to make a number of drinks say 12 " double shots " they aren't commercial one groups
> 
> ...


Thanks for a quick reply.

Sorry for not explaining it clearly. What I mean is just serving 6+ guests that I occasionally have. It's still for a home use and definitely not in commercial setting.

Btw, could you post Gary's link please?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Machine should be fine for that volume of drinks

each will need a small recovery time but not so much as you would notice in your workflow around dosing and tamping I suspect

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?13429-Sage-DB-versus-Expo-Brewtus-Shootout-Results&highlight=Sage+brewtus


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## HotLatte (Oct 8, 2014)

Thanks for the prompt reply Mrboots.

Sorry for not explaining it clearer. The question is asked in the context of post-dinner setting where often times I have 6+ guests to serve and definitely not in the commercial setting. And thanks for the Gary's review info too. Will be heading there and read through it later.


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