# New member- First machine should I buy new or used



## Leherb (Dec 29, 2020)

Hi guys,

I have been looking around for a little while and I am on the verge of purchasing my first machine/ grinder. Would you guys reccomend going down the new or used routes?

If I am buying new I would be looking at a Lelit Mara X and a Eureka Specialita.

I currently use a Nespresso Creatista and I tend to make about 4 Espresso's a day.

Thanks


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

What are you thinking about if you buy used? If you are spending a decent chunk on a second hand machine I'd be guided by what comes up the for sale section on this site. I wouldn't trust something like an expensive coffee machine from Ebay, FB Marketplace etc.

Lelit Mara X and a Eureka Specialita. - That's £1300. Nice set up. The 'go-to set up' in that price range. Others might say think about a Niche, brings you in at £1450. Have you looked at alternatives to the Mara X? If yes I'd say go ahead and buy it. Life is short.


----------



## Leherb (Dec 29, 2020)

I am open to options, the primary reason for looking used is to bring the cost down and potentially get a better machine for the money.

I am concious of warranty etc but if machines tend to be reliable thats not an issue?

I originally was looking at Rockets but the Mara X appears to be better than their cheaper models and cost less.


----------



## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

Leherb said:


> .... Would you guys reccomend going down the new or used routes? ....


 I've been having exactly that same conversation with myself. I have a decent budget and am on thev knife-edge of pulling the trigger .... on new kit.

Why? I'm somewhat risk-averse. I suspect buying here reduces the risk, but I'm extremely wary of ebay, etc. It's a bit like buying a car if you don't know cars - you might get a bargain, but you might come badly unstuck. I decided not to take the chance, and just upped the budget accordingly.


----------



## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

CoffeePhilE said:


> ...I suspect buying here *reduces* the risk..


 Probably...but not guaranteed.



CoffeePhilE said:


> ...I'm extremely wary of ebay, etc. It's a bit like buying a car if you don't know cars - you might get a bargain, but you might come badly unstuck...


 the same could be said for anything really; 2nd hand coffee machines/paraphernalia included....NEW is always (compared to 2nd hand) a winner IMO.

Best of luck with whatever you purchase...oh and BTW welcome to the forum 😀


----------



## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

Rumpelstiltskin said:


> Probably...but not guaranteed.


 Yeah, quite. The vibe I get from my time reading here is that mostly, people try to help. But I'm new here. From other forums with a similar vibe, where I'm not new, mostly, people are pretty good. But yeah, no guarantee. And I'm way too new to get any feel for individuals who might not fit that type. And for the money involved, which isn't trivial, it's too big a risk for me to take.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

CoffeePhilE said:


> Yeah, quite. The vibe I get from my time reading here is that mostly, people try to help. But I'm new here. From other forums with a similar vibe, where I'm not new, mostly, people are pretty good. But yeah, no guarantee. And I'm way too new to get any feel for individuals who might not fit that type. And for the money involved, which isn't trivial, it's too big a risk for me to take.


 I think it's fair to say that "caveat emptor" always applies. With any used machine, there may be a problem that the seller is unaware of. Fortunately, fixes are easy and the savings can be very large. Mostly machines are well cared for, which is important because it's very hard to make a tatty machine look good, repair, or service a nice looking machine though, and you can have something at a great price compared to new.

Any new machine will need maintenance in time and mostly people learn to do these simple jobs themselves, really it's not hard to do. If you're prepared to remove the cover annually and inspect the machine, a lot of minor things can be "headed off at the pass" before they become, or cause a more expensive problem.


----------



## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I think it's fair to say that "caveat emptor" always applies. With any used machine, there may be a problem that the seller is unaware of. Fortunately, fixes are easy and the savings can be very large. Mostly machines are well cared for, which is important because it's very hard to make a tatty machine look good, repair, or service a nice looking machine though, and you can have something at a great price compared to new.
> 
> Any new machine will need maintenance in time and mostly people learn to do these simple jobs themselves, really it's not hard to do. If you're prepared to remove the cover annually and inspect the machine, a lot of minor things can be "headed off at the pass" before they become, or cause a more expensive problem.


 I agree with that entirely. There's a trade-off. Buying used can be a great deal, for both parties, but it does involve an extra degree of risk. That might be risk of monetary cost but even if the seller is 100% genuine and completely unaware of any problem, the buyer still has the risk of a load of hassle of sorting it out. What it comes down to is how much I'd be likely to save, compared to buying new, and whether that amount justifies the pain in the butt if it turns out there's a problem.

As it happens, I was just looking through For Sale and saw an item at about £30. I know I can get it new, delivered, for £50. Would I rather take a risk and save £20, or just buy new? I'd buy new. Anything I'd be likely to be willing to pay to buy used would probably be seen as a cheeky offer, a try-on, maybe even insulting, and so I wouldn't even make the offer. Too much risk of hassle, all over £20? I just couldn't be bothered.

Now scale that up to a used version of a two grand machine, and the degree of hassle at risk goes up hugely too. If I ended up with a faulty machine, could I get it repaired? Probably. Would it cost enough to negate any savings from buying used? Perhaps. If a used version was, say, a year old, believed by the seller to be working perfectly, would I pay £1500? No. £1000? That's getting there. Maybe, maybe not. Actually, thinking about it, probably not. But would the seller be interested at what I'd pay? I doubt it.

I've had this before with, for instance, cameras and lenses. Sellers usually think their gear is worth considerably more than I do. And often, they're right, and they sell it, but at a price higher than I'd pay. As I said, I'm risk-averse. The market and I often don't agree on what something is worth. I'd rather just buy new and avoid the hassle. I think it's the sheer invonvenience of sorting out problems if something goes wrong. It's not worth the hassle .... to me. Many people probably would risk the hassle, and if need be do the sorting out, to save the money, judging by the amount of camera gear I've seen sell successfully at prices i wouldn't have paid. I'm not knocking buying second-hand, at all. But generally, I won't do it. Even if someone would accept what I'd consider an item to be worth, I'd worry that I was taking advantage of them by making such a low offer.

Conversely, I very rarely sell anything second-hand either. Generally, it's too much hassle to be bothered.


----------



## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

Ahhh a man after my own heart....i have a 2/3 or 50%-75% price-threshold (depending upon what i'm purchasing (i value some things more than others; e.g. cycle parts or books)) before i will pay the full new price...i.e. if the seller is asking past my threshold of say 2/3 for a lens then i will always go for the new option (if still available) every time.

You summed up my stance on new vs used perfectly...your camera/lens analogy was one i'd have used lol



CoffeePhilE said:


> ...The market and I often don't agree on what something is worth. I'd rather just buy new and avoid the hassle. I think it's the sheer invonvenience of sorting out problems if something goes wrong. It's not worth the hassle .... to me. Many people probably would risk the hassle, and if need be do the sorting out, to save the money, judging by the amount of camera gear I've seen sell successfully at prices i wouldn't have paid. I'm not knocking buying second-hand, at all. But generally, I won't do it...


 My Canon EF 70-200mm f2.8L USM Lens (mk 1 version) is old/tired but looking a tad battered....the average 2nd hand fleabay price is around the £800-£900 for what some are classing as "mint"....(having been on the sticky end (on a few occasions) of someone's interpretation of "mint" ...but as this is "above" (or very close to) my 2/3 or 75% i'll be damned if i'll dick about and as per yourself i'd much rather avoid the "maybe/maybe-not" as described and pay-the-difference for brand-new. In reality i'm gonna get a brand-new MKi 2 version instead.

*New* can be taken back/exchanged/changed-my-mind (within a certain time frame of course) and *WILL come with a Warranty*....the Warranty with me is usually the main deciding factor...i'm not bothered about a warranty on something that costs peanuts/classed as disposable, but i am on something that costs a small mortgage....some items can have their warranty transferred (i love manufacturers that do this) to the 2nd user; but the *biggest majority of manufacturers will not honor* a 2nd-user-warranty even if the item was sold the day after it was purchased brand-new to another user.

I don't sell much; i'd much rather give it away than embarrass myself should it pack-up/be-sub-standard, that and it brings a smile to someone's face which is worth more than money in my eyes.


----------



## RobDGio (Jun 17, 2020)

Slightly off topic but with high end race bicycles the unwritten rule is often roughly -50% for second hand and a further £100 per year age. Obviously not always the case and certain brands retain value a lot more than others. Some you may still 75% rrp new......I wonder if people have a similar mind set with coffee equipment. It seems that espresso machines seem to retain a lot more value than that though. Seem to be in the same sort of price range when comparing top of the range espresso equipment and race bikes

Interesting to hear people's thoughts. I too am I bit risk averse and would tend to buy new unless it was a very good deal. I think sometimes it's hard to justify the risk of second hand with equipment where there could be unseen issues. Interested to see what others think


----------



## sjm85 (Sep 9, 2016)

When did the Gaggia/SJ combo become so unfashionable? 😢

That's a £1k setup if you are comparing to new, it's the best £300 I ever spent (btw, I will get that money back when I sell them). And now I can be testament to the fact that if indeed home espresso is a hobby you enjoy, then that is more than decent enough to tide you over whilst you save for something better. Plus, I feel much more comfortable owning a prosumer machine knowing that I can take it apart and service it as needed, thanks to the skills I learnt with the Gaggia. And therefore, hopefully it'll last for +20 years.


----------



## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

All these examples, camera gear, good bikes, "proper" coffee machines, all share a common theme - hobbyist stuff used/owned by people with a passion. I'm sure there are many, many other possible examples too. Maybe stylish jewelry, antique clocks, postage stamps, whatever (and I'll admit to loving old clocks but glad I resisted the buying bug, but dodged bikes, jewelry and, after about age 12, stamps). As for cameras, Rumpelstiltskin, you have given me a nasty case of lense envy. The 70-200mm is, IMHO, one of the most versatile ranges out there but I topped out at the f4 IS. Macro lenses (and a twinflash), on the other hand .... 

But, I seem to remember signing up to a coffee forum not a camera one, and I'm getting off-track.

I think the issue I/we have over buyer v. seller ideas of what something is 'worth' very much as to do with the passion thing I mentioned. Also, if I was selling something I utterly know it's been well-treated and carefully looked after, but the buyer doesn't, not everybody has that mindset. The last thing I want is to buy either a lens or a serious coffee machine (or a car, camera, whatever) previously owned by a philistine.

And that, in truth, is probably where my concern over the risk of buying used comes from. It probably sounds pompous (sorry about that) but I hold myself to pretty high 'care for' standards and don't trust something I buy used, unless I'm pretty confident the person I'm buying from does too. It's the same reason I stopped lending people LP's (if you guys go back that far) in the 70s, atter getting a couple of my prized collection back scratched and, in one case, with some butter and jam remnants that most emphatically weren't on it when I lent it. And no, I didn't ask how the jam got on it. Nor some of the other .... substances. One of which had a strange, sweet and familiar odour. Frankly, I didn't want to know.

And that brings me full circle. The impression I get here is that most here wouldn't be here but for a passion about coffee, but I'm far too new to judge about fastidiousness in caring for gear, which implies uncomfortably high risk. Would I buy a Chemex? Yeah. Mythos One? Nope. Not until I feel I 'know' people.


----------



## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

sjm85 said:


> When did the Gaggia/SJ combo become so unfashionable? 😢
> 
> That's a £1k setup if you are comparing to new, it's the best £300 I ever spent (btw, I will get that money back when I sell them). And now I can be testament to the fact that if indeed home espresso is a hobby you enjoy, then that is more than decent enough to tide you over whilst you save for something better. Plus, I feel much more comfortable owning a prosumer machine knowing that I can take it apart and service it as needed, thanks to the skills I learnt with the Gaggia. And therefore, hopefully it'll last for +20 years.


 At least as far as I'm concerned, it didn't become unfashionable and sure, going in for minimum cost and learning loads before spending uncomfortable sums is a very good approach. But not where I'm at.

I'm on the cusp (probably today) of committing to a Sage Oracle Touch. I may have just heard a collective gasp of shock from the fully-manual group. but I know what I'm buying. First, it's expensive. Second there are much cheaper ways of getting good coffee. And third, that sum of money buys a very nice machine/grinder setup in 'proper' manual units, and even more so if buying used. What the Sage buys me is sheer convenience, and ease of use with some ability to exert manual control if I want to. I also was about to order a Niche Zero, but all categories in Indigogo are now sold out, whereas a day or two back, the UK Black unit was available. Oh well, I can wait. For now, that Sage will do what I want which, primarily, is produce a really good cuppa, though yes, "really good" is subjective. A very strong secondary objective is .... so can the wife, who has zero interest in gadgets and gizmo's, and would not even try anything more manual than the Sage. Oh, and I can get my favourite tipple (Americano) dead easily, and also froth milk for a hot chocolate, yet I can do my friend's cappuccino, and even geta bit of latte art in. That should be good for a laugh. I'll probably get as close to good latte art as the average 5-yr old in a school art class gets to Renoir .... with finger paint. The 5-yr old, I mean, not Renoir.

Oh, and as and when I get the Zero, I can bypass the Sage's weakest link, the grinder, and easily single-dose my way to new beans, with near-zero retention and wastage, and feed the V60/dripper route too.

Besides, I really like the styling of the Sage, and especially the Zero. I'll get those past domestic management in our, sorry, her new kitchen,. where as some chrome and brass hangover from 1950s Florence, or a grinder that would look at home on a factory floor next to a lathe or milling machine? Not so much. It's not worth the earache. 

Of course, I'm up for constructive criticism of that rationale from those knowing far more than me, but bear in mind, that ease of use is absolutely critical. I might be prepared to understanding over/under-extracting, channelling, and using a tamper, distributor, knowing my ratios, etc, but the Mrs? Not a snowball's chance in hell. She'd go to a pot of Nescafe instant first.


----------



## sjm85 (Sep 9, 2016)

Sounds like you have thought a lot about this purchase, so wishing you well with it.

I think most of the time you are mainly pleasing yourself (and any significant other!), so as long as you are happy that is the most important thing! Certainly lots of people here to give advice if needed!

One final thing from me, you can't go wrong with reading @DavecUK reviews/commentary though. If he owns it, it's probably worth having.


----------



## Leherb (Dec 29, 2020)

These are some interesting points.

One things i have noticed from my research is that Espresso machines seem to hold their money reasonably, because of this I have decided to buy new. This will minimise risk whilst not loosing a whole chunk of cash later down the line.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

CoffeePhilE said:


> At least as far as I'm concerned, it didn't become unfashionable and sure, going in for minimum cost and learning loads before spending uncomfortable sums is a very good approach. But not where I'm at.
> 
> I'm on the cusp (probably today) of committing to a Sage Oracle Touch. I may have just heard a collective gasp of shock from the fully-manual group. but I know what I'm buying. First, it's expensive. Second there are much cheaper ways of getting good coffee. And third, that sum of money buys a very nice machine/grinder setup in 'proper' manual units, and even more so if buying used. What the Sage buys me is sheer convenience, and ease of use with some ability to exert manual control if I want to.
> 
> Of course, I'm up for constructive criticism of that rationale from those knowing far more than me, but bear in mind, that ease of use is absolutely critical. I might be prepared to understanding over/under-extracting, channelling, and using a tamper, distributor, knowing my ratios, etc, but the Mrs? Not a snowball's chance in hell. She'd go to a pot of Nescafe instant first.


 This is a machine costing £2K, plus the Niche makes £2.5K !

I really recommend you spend a little more time before purchasing anything. I would like to add a few more things to your list of "knowns"



It's liable to be landfill at some point in the future (could be 5 years, could be 8 years..)


You have one source of spares and repairs (Ferrari espresso I believe), so it's a bit appleesque


That sum of money can buy end game kit for most people and a machine so much more than the sage (in every way)


The sage is ultimately no easier to use than the "manual" units.


----------



## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> This is a machine costing £2K, plus the Niche makes £2.5K !
> 
> I really recommend you spend a little more time before purchasing anything. I would like to add a few more things to your list of "knowns"
> 
> ...


 The machine cost, right now, is £2k. Plus on-going costof beans, sure. The Zero, when (and assuming I do eventually) I get it adds another £500 (plus any applicable taxes) and no doubt there'll be other smaller costs too. Those two are the biggies.

Am aware of, let's say, limited servicing and/or repair opportunities, i.e. the landfill factor. So call that £2k more like £300-£500/year, or £6/£10/week, over a probable life.

I'm certainly open to alternative ideas for "end game" kit, and will gladly listen. But bear in mind, the primary driver is ease of use, both for me and the wife. Anything that *requires* learning a hobby, or an art, anything that requires measuring, scales, tamping, etc, is a non-starter for the Mrs. Convenience is king, in this case, even at the expense of ultimae drink quality.

There's one more factor, but sending you a direct message, once I figure out how to. Give me a few minutes.


----------



## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

H or SWMBO cannot be ignored on any purchase he/she will be using besides yourself....divorce papers await those that ignore this rule :classic_wink: .

Good luck with whatever you do decide to purchase.

p.s. do you want to buy a "*mint*" Canon EF 85mm f1.2 L USM II Lens...i'm not a Philistine; honest guv :exit:


----------



## Alpesh (Dec 12, 2020)

CoffeePhilE said:


> The machine cost, right now, is £2k. Plus on-going costof beans, sure. The Zero, when (and assuming I do eventually) I get it adds another £500 (plus any applicable taxes) and no doubt there'll be other smaller costs too. Those two are the biggies.
> 
> Am aware of, let's say, limited servicing and/or repair opportunities, i.e. the landfill factor. So call that £2k more like £300-£500/year, or £6/£10/week, over a probable life.
> 
> ...


 I'll be shot but how about a Nespresso for convenience (Mrs) in addition to something a little more manual for the quality that will stand the test of time?


----------



## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

Rumpelstiltskin said:


> H or SWMBO cannot be ignored on any purchase he/she will be using besides yourself....divorce papers await those that ignore this rule :classic_wink: .
> 
> Good luck with whatever you do decide to purchase.
> 
> p.s. do you want to buy a "*mint*" Canon EF 85mm f1.2 L USM II Lens...i'm not a Philistine; honest guv :exit:


 A better question for the lens would include "at a price I might accept". I think we both know the answer to that. 

Very nice lens but not one I'd use enough to justify.

As for ignoring domestic management, I might take the odd chance but I'm not daft. No guarantee she will use it. She says not, but I'm hoping to tempt her. I made sure to consult on :-

- whether to do it at all (was told, do as you wish)

- maximum spend (was told, do as you wish)

- what colour (was told, I keep saying DO AS YOU WISH. You need it in writing or something?)

- where to put it kitchen (was told, If i don't stop asking questons, she'll put it somewhere that will make it tricky getting the portathingy in and out, and need a good surgeon to retrieve it).

I've stopped asking questions. I saw, and didn't much like, the glint in her eye with the last one.


----------



## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

CoffeePhilE said:


> ...was told, If i don't stop asking questons, she'll put it somewhere that will make it tricky getting the portathingy in and out, and need a good surgeon to retrieve it)...


 ha ha roflmao.....no worries r.e. the lens....i was "told" "you better be keeping that for another year, considering what it cost"......i too got "that" look. 🚑


----------



## Garys (Dec 10, 2020)

I saw an Iberital mc2 on eBay go for £150 ish, used today. I ordered one from happy donkey new for around £130. Just saying.


----------



## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

Auction-fever, I guess. Once, I watched a bit of used computer kit sell for more in an auction than it would have cost me if I'd walked half a mile down the road and bought the same thing, brand new, with both a warranty and consumer rights protection, from an authorised reseller.


----------



## Hexene (May 9, 2020)

I had a toss up between Lelit Mara X and the Elektra MCAL. Since coming from a Flair I decided to go for the MCAL and don't regret it in the slightest.


----------



## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

CoffeePhilE said:


> Auction-fever, I guess...


 Seen this so many times, still do.....for example :- that Hexagon shaped machine a forum member is selling on fleabay....auction fever has already kicked in....it will go for more than it's worth; i'm not saying it shouldn't and i wish the seller every success, my gripe is at the sheep who will (and already are) fight over themselves to get it "at any price" or those that say "mmmph i'll be damned if i'll be beat by £1" and re-bid; which in turn leads to a bidding war...why....because their ego can't cope with being beaten, hence they'll pay over the odds rather than lose.

The real winners here are the seller (and good luck to him/her) and fleabay (fee's etc. etc.).....the slimy gits you have to watch out for are those that "retract" their bid and use some BS excuse as to why the figure they entered was wrong....bollox....you just wanted to see what xyz's maximum bid was; these arseholes should be banned from further bidding IMO. But they'd get round that by using another alias-account.

I both love and hate Ebay; and i much prefer the "buy it now" option; if it's a fair/reasonable price to "you" then you'll buy it; if not someone else will or it won't sell; in which case it was priced too high. Bidding up-front days before IMO is a waste of time....someone has always got more money than you. It doesn't matter if you have all the money in the world that don't mean diddly within the last 4 seconds....all the money you may have; time you don't have... Providing there hasn't been a bidding war before the last 4 seconds then i hit that "submit" button with my "maximum" the item is worth to "me".....90% of the time i win...sometimes i lose, but that's only because the item was worth "more" to someone else and their maximum was more than my maximum....i don't get upset or gripe i just see it as well it was above "my" budget and well-done to whoever beat me.

EDIT:- the 4 seconds BTW is the time it takes to type and enter...i can't do it any quicker; ergo if i hit "submit" at 4 seconds before the end then that's my win/lose strategy...at 4 seconds most peeps can't react fast enough to enter a "fresh" (not generated) figure 😋


----------



## 06dhewett (Jan 8, 2021)

I'm also looking at a MaraX and Specialita as my first 'proper' setup (progressing from a cheap De'Longhi and Sage Smart Grinder Pro) and similarly contemplating used vs new. Interested to hear how you get on, so please do share the outcome!


----------



## Dag (Jan 21, 2021)

I'm looking at buying my first espresso set-up, coming from Nespresso currently. I know the learning curve will be steep and I'm thinking that 2nd-hand gear of higher quality will be easier to learn on compared to new gear at the same price point. Better temperature and pressure control and so on will take some of the variables out of the equation. I would hate to get started, then struggle to achieve consistent quality drinks, get frustrated and give up, if the inconsistent results were partly due to the equipment. That's why I'll most likely go with used equipment initially.


----------



## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

i'd say that's a very sound strategy, Dag .... provided you're cautious and careful about what you buy second-hand, and that also implies a degree of caution about who you buy it from.

Like almost anything, be it cars, cameras, hifi, phones, whatever, there's people doing what you're doing but one step ahead, selling perfectly good used kit at reasonable prices. Sadly, there's also less reputable individuals selling gear they know has problems, looking for some unsuspecting novice green enough to fall for it. It can be tricky picking between the two. And of course, you could really step on a buyer's landmine and end up with something of, how do I put it .... dubious ownership history. i.e. nicked. Maybe more likely with cars, phones etc than espresso gear but ... you never know.

What yoo don't want is the learning exercise to end up about learning the wrong kind of lessons, though the bay can be an effective teacher. ;(


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Dag said:


> I know the learning curve will be steep and I'm thinking that 2nd-hand gear of higher quality will be easier to learn on compared to new gear at the same price point.


 Couple more post and you will be able to access the for sale section.



CoffeePhilE said:


> i'd say that's a very sound strategy, Dag .... provided you're cautious and careful about what you buy second-hand, and that also implies a degree of caution about who you buy it from.


 Good advice and a good reason to look first at the forum for sale section.


----------



## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

@Rumple,

Sorry, just seen the post about eBay/auctions.

I haven't used eBay in, oh, years now but, when I did, my strategy was much like yours. Central was avoiding thinking "If I can get this for £x, do I want it?" and slowly increasing £x.

Instead, I used to try to decide, if I can buy this, right now, what's the highest price I'll be happy paying. The highest price I'm happy to pay, not the lowest I think I can get away with. Then I either offer BuyitNow, or more likely, just bid that now. I'd only use the first if I really wanted it, didn't want to risk losing it, and that typically was if it was either a one-off, or rare and not often coming up.

I once bought a numbered, (genuine and original, signed) Chagall etching that way (latter strategy) at (real life) auction. Nobody else bid and I paid about 10% of what I would have. It wasn't a huge sum, but enough even so, and I grinned for about a week because I seriously didn't think it would be in my price range at all. But in general, if I bid the highest I would be happy paying for something, I was sure to be content whatever happened. Either I got it, and was happy, or didn't but hadn't been tempted to pay more than I wanted, so still was happy.

That ended up as my auction Golden Rule #1 - always, always, ALWAYS know what your maximum is. So do your research beforehand and set your limit, whether buying a cheap lens for your camera, a car or a house. Or a Chagall etching. Not that that was more than a house. Less than some lenses, in fact.


----------



## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Couple more post and you will be able to access the for sale section.
> 
> Good advice and a good reason to look first at the forum for sale section.


 indeed. I'm sufficiently new here to not feel comfortable recommending that, but I does meet (with a little caution still) my expectation. Usually, on most decent forums, people with a substantial history can be trusted, at least up to a point, because doing otherwise puts their reputation at risk. BUT ... I have, on other forums, seen that general principle come unstuck, and seen people I would not have expected it of pull some atrocious stunts.

Two things come to mind. You never know what's going on in someone's real life and there's always the chance that someone really up against it will act totally out of character, out of desperation. And secondly, it's the internet. That should always encourage a degree of caution.


----------



## Dag (Jan 21, 2021)

@*CoffeePhilE: *



> CoffeePhilE said:
> 
> 
> > What yoo don't want is the learning exercise to end up about learning the wrong kind of lessons, though the bay can be an effective teacher. ;(
> ...


----------



## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

Dag said:


> Ah, yes - there is that. I've been buying other gear from eBay and other marketplaces for a long time so I know a bit of due diligence is needed. Still, you do get burnt now and then.


 If you're used to it, then I guess you know how to look at the occasional burning philosophically, and put it in the context of the bargains that worked.

I'm more of the hassle-avoidance type myself. I got mucked about years ago on eBay, surprisingly perhaps not by a chancer but by a world famous multinational corporate. It got sorted in the end but was enough of a pain in the rear for me to decide I couldn't be bothered with the hassle. I closed my account and haven'tused it since. These days I buy new, and from reputable sellers only .... and even that isn't guaranteed to avoid hassle but it does improve the odds.


----------



## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

@Dag "And I am keeping an eye on the sale section. Would rather buy from here than from eBay."

Sorry i couldn't quote you properly as your quote above was "within" a quote.....anyhow be cautious even on here; sharks come in many guises...as Phil said "use caution".

@CoffeePhilE my apologies also; i start at the bottom "How Do I" section of the forum each day and make my way upwards through the posts; hence this section is usually the last i read/reply on before calling it a day...now and then i'll get sidetracked by a "notification/other" but usually get back to "rising *up* through the posts"

Someone on here sold something on Ebay but failed to state the "problems" they'd had with their "item".....it sold !! ....i feel sorry for the new owner as they'll find out the "problems" the hard-way :classic_sad: and they probably hadn't/don't read this forum; which would have given them the heads-up.

Money does strange things to people....a Headmaster i knew pissed off with the money and a Dean got caught with his hand in the cookie-jar....i spent 2/3 of my adult life with my head buried in the sand; the world was a joy to experience and i loved everyone and everything in it; until i got burnt !!... that makes you remove your rose-tinted-goggles and suddenly the world isn't quite the place you envisioned it as. Suffice to say i became sceptical and withdrew inwardly; i became ill because of it...time though is indeed a good healer; the stutter is the only thing that remains now and unfortunately the scepticism lol...i don't blame anyone (well that's not quite true; i blame my 1st greedy stealing wife) and life is too short to keep dwelling on things you can't change/alter. Life and people can and do change; i changed/adapted (i had to). I smile each day now, i laugh, i joke, i cry and i still have faith of a sorts in Humanity. I still keep my eyes open now though; once bitten...and i'm still dubious of most (but not all) folk, even though i do a lot of things (away from here) for free/no monetary-gain, help others where possible and ask for nothing in return. Helping others makes them happy; which in turn makes me very happy seeing the smile on their faces/tear in their eye and knowing that i've done a good deed.


----------



## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

@Rumpelstiltskin

I feel where you're coming from, there. I've shared some of the journey, the notable exception being the first (and in my case, only) wife. Whether through luck or judgement (I, naturally, prefer to believe it's the latter) I managed to pick an utter angel. But the rest, well, I guess we could say all of life is a learning experience. It's what "growing" is, Sometimes it's more painful than others, and the painful bits can lead to scepticism or even cynicism. An old adage, very familiar to sceptics/cynics, is that cynicism is merely realism borne of experience ... but it's a somewhat cynical approach.

Then, if we're lucky, we grow a bit more and learn to put all that in context of how wonderful life can be, despite (or perhaps because of) the kicks. At that point, we become rather more content. It's pays us, mentally, to expect the positive, to look forward to the good but with half (no more) an eye on not getting kicked in the gut or stabbed in the back. That way, in my opinion, lies happiness. Don't expect life to be a bed of roses, because it isn't, but don't assume everyone is out to get you, because most aren't. Take the goods bits and enjoy them, but be aware there are snakes in the grass in the Garden of Eden, allow for them but don't let them ruin your day.

Stay positive, stay happy but stay alert.

And as that's quite enough, or probably way too much, of both back-of-cereal-packet philosophy, and horribly mangled metaphors, I'll leave that as 'nuff said.


----------



## Dag (Jan 21, 2021)

Rumpelstiltskin said:


> @Dag "And I am keeping an eye on the sale section. Would rather buy from here than from eBay."
> 
> Sorry i couldn't quote you properly as your quote above was "within" a quote.....anyhow be cautious even on here; sharks come in many guises...as Phil said "use caution".


 Wise words indeed! I'll try and keep my wits about me. Looking at the 'for sale' section it seems well respected gear keep their value well. I don't see the discounts I was hoping for. I'm I right in thinking there were better deals to be had before lock-down?

And sorry about that quote - I made a real mess of it. I'm sure I'll get the hang of it one day.


----------



## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

Dag said:


> ...Looking at the 'for sale' section it seems well respected gear keep their value well. I don't see the discounts I was hoping for. I'm I right in thinking there were better deals to be had before lock-down?
> 
> And sorry about that quote - I made a real mess of it. I'm sure I'll get the hang of it one day.


 No apology necessary, i was/have been guilty of this as i'm sure others have; we were all newbies once....i joined mid pandemic so can't really say if there was any "better deals" as such. You will notice the "bargains" as they are usually in the "Sold" section lol...i.e. they usually (if a bargain) sell instantly/don't-last-long.....the "not-so-bargains" are easily spotted as they remain in said For Sale section...sometimes for weeks/months (ergo not quite the bargain/worth the money the seller thought it was)

If it's good it goes.....if it's not it stays in FS (then usually ends up on Ebay)

Caveat Emptor


----------

