# PID on Silvia



## soundklinik

My PID kit parts are starting to come in...


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## soundklinik

Most parts are in...waiting fot the box to mount the PID in...


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## glevum

looking forward to seeing your end result. After having a Silvia for 4 years i just don't know why i never did mine!


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## mike 100

Very interesting.. is it the Auber kit by any chance?


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## soundklinik

mike 100 said:


> Very interesting.. is it the Auber kit by any chance?





> glevum
> 
> looking forward to seeing your end result. After having a Silvia for 4 years i just don't know why i never did mine!


Yes, I am pretty excited too...

It looks just like the Auber kit, with N2006P instead of Auber, but 5x less expensive. I chose a 12 VDC unit, (over 220 VAC, see the AC/DC transformer).

I put it all together after some research and I hope that it works well, I did an accuracy test of sensor....wired to PID to monitor temp and it is spot on, stopped on 100*C when water reached boiling point.

I am putting mine into a plastic box (for better heat protection and cost of box).

Anyway, I will post progress as I go on...

Cheers


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## soundklinik

Work finished...fine tuning now...

While I was at it, I decided to insulate the boiler with pipe insulation material, dia. 60mm=2". Material thickness about 6mm. The final result is cleaner, with lots of metal tape sealing it all together and clear from electric connections.

I put soundproofing around the pump compartment. Great improvement.

Then I glued in place SSR and 220AC/12VDC transformer and hooked up all the connections to PID. Not many, 2 x SSR, 2 x 12VDC, 2 x Sensor.

The sensor is K-type -50 to +300C, hooked up under aluminium brackets holding down the two sensors. Between them.

That's all, there is a good amount of setup to do, so I think I will have to experiment with that...

Bye for now.


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## soundklinik

After some time of using/experimenting with PID'd Silvia, I settled down on SV=99C,... AH-1(on)= 99,.... and AL-1(off)=102C.

The terms A-HI/A-LOW alarm have nothing to do with Audio/Visual alarms in MY settings. The terms are used for *setting in general, *because the PID can also activate alarms if wired to a buzzer.

Cycle rate set to 25sec...to avoid the constant on/off flashing and wearing out contacts in PID...

The water temp measured in grouphead is about ~90C


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## 4085

Not knowing anything about these things. If you had a pid on a classic would it transfer over to a sylvia or would you need additional or different bits?


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## bronc

It should transfer as it is but you will most likely need longer wires as the Rancilio's case is bigger. Also depending on what thermocouple you've used, you might need to change that as well.

@soundklinik - what are you using the alarms for? I saw that you have two SSRs so I assume one is for the steam?


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## painty

soundklinik said:


> Cycle rate set to 25sec...to avoid the constant on/off flashing and wearing out contacts...


You don't need to worry about contacts wearing out since SSRs don't have any. They'll happily work with

Where did you find the boiler insulation, btw? Looks good.


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## soundklinik

painty said:


> You don't need to worry about contacts wearing out since SSRs don't have any. They'll happily work with
> 
> Where did you find the boiler insulation, btw? Looks good.


Yes you do, (not with SSR) but with *PID itself*, the constant cycling of 0.2 sec is too short and too slow recuperation time. It is much quicker with 25sec. time then a lot of short pulses. (After reaching SV, pulses are in 0.2ms)

I prefer Fig.7, Low alarm, my SV(set value) temp. is set to 102C.

AH1=101C This is where SSR kicks in once temp goes under or=101C

AL1=105C This is the Max temp allowed to reach.

The difference between the Fig.6 and Fig.7 is that theoretically, they work in opposite. Fig.#6 setup would bring SV to 102 and drop, while Fig.#7 keeps 102C as an absolute minimum. At least this is how I understand it and it seems to work that way

The insulation is from a DIY, best quality rubber insulation for pipes they had. 60mm inner diam. and 6mm thick 1m long. It feels like diver's suit and is incredibly efficient. My temp dropped from very warm cups to barely warm on top of Silvia.

Since it wants to curl up, I had to use a lot of Alu tape to hold it together...



> dfk41
> 
> Not knowing anything about these things. If you had a pid on a classic would it transfer over to a sylvia or would you need additional or different bits?


You probably won't need much electronic wise. Probably some electric wire crimp connectors. Is the PID 220VAC or 12VDC? Does it have a wire sensor, which type? Sensor is mounted under the screw of alu holders between the 2 sensors (water/steam) on top of Silvia's boiler. If you need one, I have a spare, I will gladly send it to you...( Same one as in pictures above. Wire, K-type.)

It is best to have everything (AC-wise) connected to Silvia's ON/Off rocker switch. If you need any help, let me know.


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## painty

Thanks for the insulation info, will give that a try sometime.

Are you somehow using the relay output to trigger the SSR then? If you're using the voltage pulse output, it should work better at short cycle times.


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## Kyle548

A note about using an SSR to power steam on the alarm, the SSR should be AC-AC, not DC.

If you use DC and your PID outputs AC on the alarm circuit (the espresso machine will output AC from its switches and power in all probability and the PID won't modulate this in anyway) and try to power an SSR, the SSR will probably explode and take your PID alarm circuit with it.

Even in the case that there is any DC, the AC SSR should run anyway.

In terms of wiring though, silvia and the classic are more or less the same. Even the thread sizes for the tstat.

The only real difference between the machines is, as noted, silvia is bigger.


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## soundklinik

Kyle548 said:


> A note about using an SSR to power steam on the alarm, the SSR should be AC-AC, not DC.
> 
> If you use DC and your PID outputs AC on the alarm circuit (the espresso machine will output AC from its switches and power in all probability and the PID won't modulate this in anyway) and try to power an SSR, the SSR will probably explode and take your PID alarm circuit with it.
> 
> Even in the case that there is any DC, the AC SSR should run anyway.


Why do you drag in here scenarios that I don't have and am not talking about...Did you even take a look at the components I used? I use One SSR only...

Relax, nothing is going to explode..lol

The PID itself is DC powered, with 12VDC that come from the transformer.

Second input into PID is the thermal probe that has +/- and must be respected.

PID *output is 12VDC* and goes to the SSR which relays *AC *to heater. The relay lets pass AC current to the heater and is activated by DC signal from PID.

Check out the input and output of the SSR in the picture. It is written on the top and bottom.

Input +/- 3-32VDC

Output 24-320VAC


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## Kyle548

I was not commenting about your setup, more of a general note about using a second SSR on the alarm circuit for steam.

The pid output is DC but the alarm will be whatever you put though it, AC or DC as its just a mechanical switch inside the pid.


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## soundklinik

painty said:


> *Are you somehow using the relay output to trigger the SSR then*? If you're using the voltage pulse output, it should work better at short cycle times.


No, you're mixing Relay with SSR. They are the same thing. SSR=Solid State Relay.

The way it works is; PID samples the temp via thermal probe 4 times per second. If PID notices a temp drop, it sends a signal to SSR, which closes the circuit (220VAC) and heat water in Silvia, in "pre-set" bursts. Once it reaches the temp, it cuts out and monitors. (Small temp difference=small bursts)

The short pulsating is used to keep steady temperature. The shorter the pulse=more accuracy. But I don't see any advantage in dropping temp in Silvias boiler by 10+C and bringing it up by short bursts.

The PID system bypasses the 110C thermostat switch on Silvia. Wires are removed from the thermostat and connected to the two SSR wires. I used double size, 1.5 sq. mm diameter, (instead of 0.75sq. mm) not to create resistance.

I should add, I am not trying to argue or convince anybody about anything, just sharing my results with PID users and people that think about doing it but aren't sure if they should...DO IT, it's worth it (on some machines) and really easy.

cheers


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## bronc

Can you please explain how you're using the alarms to set the low and high limits?


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## painty

soundklinik said:


> No, you're mixing Relay with SSR . . .


I've used PID controllers a fair few times and am familiar with their wiring and general operation. Your posts don't seem to be self-consistent though. First you said you selected a 25 s cycle time to avoid wear to contacts. I therefore assumed you were using the contacts of the relay output to perhaps feed the SSR trigger inputs with 12 V. You now appear to be saying back to me what I've already told you that a short pulse width gives better control?

Also you seem to be suggesting that the alarm settings affect the control output. As far as I can see, these just open or close a separate set of contacts at the J1 (?) terminals. I'm not sure you fully understand what you're talking about.


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## Kyle548

bronc said:


> Can you please explain how you're using the alarms to set the low and high limits?


The alarm has nothing to do with the main SSR output which powers the tsat, once you activate the alarm, the pid will stop outputting to the SSR and just simply allow current to pass though the alarm circuit.

What you can do is wire the alarm circuit into a switch and, using diodes, back into the SSR on the pid output, then upon flicking the switch (provided you have some way of powering the SSR, as there is no current from the pid), the alarm circuit is complete, which activates the alarm function.

Usually this is used for steam with the steam switch.

I suppose though, you could use it to limit brew fall off, by wiring the brew switch into the alarm, then setting high and low to something like 107 - 108, it would ensure the boiler stays at that temp.

Basically, you would be using PID to maintain starting temp and use the alarm during the brew cycle as an electronic tstat.

I suppose its the pid equivalent of using the steam switch to keep the heater on.

I don't really know what the OP intends to do though, but to the best of my knowledge the alarm and pid function are a kind of boolean, you can have alarm or pid, but not both.

I suppose this is a pretty good diagram, albeit for steam.

In the case, you would just take the brew switch, not the steam switch and then set the high and low to whatever you want your brew temps to be at during the pour.

You can do it with two SSR too, but in that case it would be best to use it for steam.


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## soundklinik

bronc said:


> Can you please explain how you're using the alarms to set the low and high limits?


There are 5 functions for my PID. See *Note 2* picture, *value of outy,* I set mine to No.2 (I think). It can be also No.3, for use with SSR.

In order to change settings I have to enter "code". See pic.5.3 Your PID should have one to prevent unauthorized fiddling.

Then you enter desired temps.

SV=set value which PID will keep as target... (Mine=102C)

AH-1=ON-when temp drops below X.......... (Mine=101C)

AL-1=OFF-when temp reaches X.............(Mine=105C)...but could be 103+C

Note that I use the reverse curve where SV is absolute minimum and can go a few degrees C up, but not down. The photo uses opposite settings, NOT to go over certain temp. Default in Silvia was 110C. Waaaay too high. 105C is "safe"

The point is to keep the temps close to SV, without having the PID "work" all the time to correct ridiculously small values...

*The word "alarm", it is used in the manual, because the PID can have an audio alarm hooked to output J1, we use HI/LOW temp setting.*

*
*

I think you asked about ALARM, not AH-1/AL-1 For some reason the manual refers to all settings as ALARMS AH-1=Hi Alarm, AL-1=Low Alarm. both set temperature.

Sorry for the misunderstanding


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## soundklinik

painty said:


> I've used PID controllers a fair few times and am familiar with their wiring and general operation. Your posts don't seem to be self-consistent though.* First you said you selected a 25 s cycle time to avoid wear to contacts. I therefore** assumed **you were using the contacts of the relay output to perhaps feed the SSR trigger inputs with 12 V*. You now appear to be saying back to me what I've already told you that a short pulse width gives better control?
> 
> Also you seem to be suggesting that the alarm settings affect the control output. As far as I can see, these just open or close a separate set of contacts at the J1 (?) terminals. I'm not sure you fully understand what you're talking about.


You assume a lot...LOL


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## grahamo83

Hello All, long time reader, first time poster.

I've recently became the owner of a Silvia and I want to add a PID to it. I want a fun project, I'm not interested in upgrading the machine or getting the Auber Kit from the US (most people seem to suggest this) I want to build my own (for cheaper







).

I have some espresso machine knowledge and I believe I understand PID but please bear with me if my questions are rubbish...

Soundklinik your solutions sounds great (and cheap) I have a couple of questions if I may

- Why did you go for the 12v dc pid instead of an ac pid. An AC solution would mean you could piggyback the power from the Silvia instead of having separate power correct?

- Do you think you would notice any practical difference in using RTD sensor instead of TC? I am a bit confused about what to get here.

How hard is it really program the PID? Are the only settings you need to set the ones you mention? PV, SV, AL1, AH1?

How much did you pay for your bits?

Thanks!


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## soundklinik

Hi, and you're welcome.

You're right, forget the Auber kit, too expensive. Mine seems to be the same unit.

I went with the 12VDC because I won a bid on that one, but I also tried to bid on 220VAC. No difference. The only thing is you'll have to get an additional 220VAC>>12VDC transformer, 6 watt cost 3 quid. (I prefer low voltage PID)

I am piggybacked to Silvia's main power switch, (you DON'T want other 220VAC wires going out) and I have one of these 5 pound on/off programmable timers that plugs in the wall socket and plug Silvia in and it goes on @6:45 and off @17:00 hrs.

As far as sensors go, you can use any sensor that this PID recognizes. I used K-type sensor, because it is very common, inexpensive and accurate to +/- 1C. I am capable of drilling/tapping and installing an internal sensor,...but no thanks, not worth it

SSR unit is 25 amp and I put 1.5sq. mm wires not to create resistance. (original is 0.75sq.mm)

The box is the hardest thing of it all, I had to dremel mine out, I used Wisher WH2855 box. It is perfect and cheap but get 2 just in case.

You can use the box from Auber but it is expensive with shipping, but professional looking.

You "should" insulate the tank. It helps keep cycling down. You don't want to heat up your house with Silvia...

The PID setup is easy, it has "intelligent sensing" and once you set it up basically, it figures out what to do. There are some sophisticated setups for labs etc, which I don't need to complicate my life with...(we need a steady temp to avoid temp surfing, right?)

You have to adjust the PID for: function: heat/cooling, type of sensor, type of operation=alarm/SSR, temps etc.

(You will get a nice PDF manual with PID)

*Cost:* PID-18, SSR-3, transfo-3, sensor-2, boxes-5, double sided scotch tape-5, (wires, crimp connectors, foam about 7 pounds, total around 50 pounds.

If you need any help let me know, I will try to help, it is fun, and worth the effort.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIGITAL-PID-TEMPERATURE-CONTROLLER-KILN-FURNACE-OVEN-ESPRESSO-COFFEE-MACHINE-/111160208312?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item19e1aa2bb8

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Happy-Buyers-Store?_trksid=p2047675.l2563 for all units

cheers


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## grahamo83

Thanks soundklinic for being so helpful.

Question: What do you mean by 'you DON'T want other 220VAC wires going out'? I assume the existing power switch connections remain and we add the wires which feed the transformer and the transformer goes off to PID, correct?

I have the wires, crimps... and I have ordered the other bits and bobs (except the PID)

I will do as you suggest, and as you did, and insulate the boiler while I am at it.

I'm becoming increasingly interested in steam control - from what I gather I can use the alarm function on the PID to control it. I've seen a wiring diagram on my searches around the www that uses an additional SSR to control it but now I can't find it


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## soundklinik

grahamo83 said:


> Thanks soundklinic for being so helpful.
> 
> *Question: What do you mean by '**you DON'T want other 220VAC wires going out'? I assume the existing power switch connections remain and we add the wires which feed the transformer and the transformer goes off to PID, correct?*
> 
> I will do as you suggest, and as you did, and insulate the boiler while I am at it.
> 
> I'm becoming increasingly interested in steam control - from what I gather I can use the alarm function on the PID to control it. I've seen a wiring diagram on my searches around the www that uses an additional SSR to control it but now I can't find it


You're welcome glad to help;-)

Not to create confusion, what I am saying is that the 220VAC wires to power PID are hooked up to Silvia's main power switch.

I've seen people connecting their PIDs to an external 220 VAC power, like Gaggia Classic, where the PID is fixed to the side of GC, not under.

It is good to insulate and you will completely undress Silvia-good to check everything out...leaks, rust, etc. Soundproof the pump is good idea too. (I did, see the Utube video for db difference)

I didn't know there is a problem with steam in Silvia. Installing the system I used, I still can steam, (push the steam button and off she goes), it overrides the PID and you just watch the temp rising...When it reaches the 140C(? is it?), it cuts off and is ready to steam.

I never steam though-don't drink milk, but I tried to see if the steam button works after installing PID.

Good luck, let me know how you're doing...

cheers


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## grahamo83

More steam can be had by steam temperature surfing (or so it seems after reading, I haven't tried it)

See steam temperature surfing from this web-site: http://www.mythos-rini.com/blog/archives/5941

The idea is to stop the boiler switching off during steaming and keeping steam power at max - I believe the same thing can be accomplished by using alarms - I've seen something like this http://www.skenedesign.com/Silvia/ but using an additional SSR instead of a 12v adapter - I just can't find it the website now.

Thanks.


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## Daren

Soundklinik

Where did you get your boiler insulation from? Does it make much difference?


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## soundklinik

Daren said:


> Soundklinik
> 
> Where did you get your boiler insulation from? Does it make much difference?


The insulation is from DIY/plumbing store and it is the best quality for pipe insulation I could find= 60 mm internal with a thickness of ~6 mm. Cost, 1m=3 pounds.

It feels kind of like wetsuit material, really good quality and about 30 cm length does the boiler.

The difference is very noticeable, before cups on the warmer got pretty warm, now they are barely warm, in Celsius I'd say btwn 10-15C and less cycling...

Get best quality aluminium adhesive tape + ties to hold it all together on edges, since the insulation material round-shape has a tendency to curl up (and stay clear around electrical connections).


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## bronc

soundklinik, what PID are you using? I'm asking because I'm having some overshoot problems after making a shot. I'm usually fine with this but when I have guests it makes multiple drinks quite uneasy. Maybe you can share your controller's settings as well.


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## soundklinik

I got this one: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PID-TEMPERATURE-CONTROLLER-KILN-FURNACE-OVEN-ESPRESSO-COFFEE-MACHINE-SSR-75A-/121179475432?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c36dc0de8

Mine overshoots too, only on 1st shot...(edit-just did a few shots)

I set mine SV to 99C and it'll go up to 101C (after a shot or on wake up),..that's acceptable to me. Second and third shot gets "stabilized" in PID and stops on 99C, e.i. no overshot

What temps is yours set to? Set value=SV... ON(low temp) and OFF(high temp)?

My settings are in above posts


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## bronc

Mine is Sestos D1S. The SV is 95* but that's with an offset of 7*C or so. The overshoot is around 2*C after a shot but it takes it quite a lot of time to settle down because for some reason the PID starts maintaining temperature around the 96-97*C range. I haven't tried a second and third shot, though.


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## soundklinik

In my amateur opinion, overshoot of 2C means absolutely nothing, because the sensor is placed next to cold water inlet, so the reaction to readout is immediate. It doesn't mean that the entire boiler has that temp. The cold/hot water starts to mix and takes time to settle.

I saw the Sestos D1S manual and it is confusing to me. It doesn't look like you can select/tweak any functions (besides temp) and do parameter settings like Cycle rate, Derivative Time, Damping. (see page 4 of my manual)

this is my manual: *www.globalbuyersstore.com/manual/tm7100r12v.pdf*



*
*Why is your SV temp set to 95? Isn't it a bit low? The water going through the PF should be between 90-95C for ideal shot. You're probably around ~85C...Did you measure the temp at PF?


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## bronc

Hm, yeah, I forgot that the TC is just next to the cold water inlet.

I'm not sure what manual you were looking at but I can tweak any of the settings. This is the correct manual: http://www.sestos-hk.com/english/download/d1s-en.pdf All of the settings on the right are completely changeable. It's just that the Chinese mixed them up. However, I don't think I have a damping constant which is sad because I've read it helps exactly with the overshoot.

The SV is 95 but it is actually 102* because I've entered an offset of 7*C. I found out that just above 106-7*C I get steam out the grouphead so I set this as my 100*C and created the offset using the TC calibration function. So at the moment my 95* SV should show more or less the temperature of the water in the boiler.


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## soundklinik

bronc said:


> Hm, yeah, I forgot that the TC is just next to the cold water inlet.
> 
> I'm not sure what manual you were looking at but I can tweak any of the settings. This is the correct manual: http://www.sestos-hk.com/english/download/d1s-en.pdf All of the settings on the right are completely changeable. It's just that the Chinese mixed them up. However, I don't think I have a damping constant which is sad because I've read it helps exactly with the overshoot.
> 
> The SV is 95 but it is actually 102* because I've entered an offset of 7*C. I found out that just above 106-7*C I get steam out the grouphead so I set this as my 100*C and created the offset using the TC calibration function. So at the moment my 95* SV should show more or less the temperature of the water in the boiler.


Well, we all use them as we see fit;-)


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## mike361

Hi,

Really considering this but i think i would prefer if there was a good detailed instructions if anyone feels generous?

Cheers

Mike


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## bronc

*This* is not mine but I've used it successfully. You can also google aubers pid install gaggia because the two machines are very similar on the inside.


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## Kyle548

mike361 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Really considering this but i think i would prefer if there was a good detailed instructions if anyone feels generous?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mike


I can help you build a pid if you like.

I would say mine is extremely successful.


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## mike361

Kyle,

If you have a list of parts i will need that would be a good start then we can take it from there?

Cheers


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## Kyle548

mike361 said:


> Kyle,
> 
> If you have a list of parts i will need that would be a good start then we can take it from there?
> 
> Cheers


Do you want to do steam too?


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## Kyle548

Kyle548 said:


> Do you want to do steam too?


If you want steam, you will need an extra part, but it is worth it.

What I used was this

A bunch of old power cables (so you can extract the wiring within, its usefully colour coded and will be rated to carry mains current).

some piggy back connectors

some fork connectors

some tongue connectors

2m of extra black wires

a pid with alarm and SSR outputs (I used a sestos)

a AC-DC SSR

a DC-DC SSR

some electricians tape

some wire crimpers and strippers

some pliers

a sharpie pen

a thermocouple, it would just be easier to get the aubur one, it is sized to fit the hole for your tstat and you wont be waiting years for it to arrive. My TC took over a month from china, in the end I had a member in France send me a spare..... and then I needed to drill holes to make it fit. Not idea for those less confident.

Some M3 velcro strips

some heat sink compound

I think thats basically it.....

IIRC, it ran me about £50?


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## mike361

Let me source this stuff then get back to you, I do have steamed milk so what would i need for that ?


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## Kyle548

mike361 said:


> Let me source this stuff then get back to you, I do have steamed milk so what would i need for that ?


I mean, you can control the steam with the pid too, but that's optional really.


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## mike361

Yeah cool, The pids look massive , what location have you got it on yours? have you got a picture?


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## Kyle548

mike361 said:


> Yeah cool, The pids look massive , what location have you got it on yours? have you got a picture?


It's pretty small actually, I was pretty surprised.

Here's an old one of my machine with the pid mounted.









I have a classic, but inside, apart from the boiler, they are more or less identical.

The silvia might be a bit bigger though.


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## d33pbluez

Hi Guys,

I had recently just order PID from auber for my rancilio silvia V3 and before the PID unit arrive i had download and study the instruction menu. I had one thing to ask regarding on the installation on the relay.... Is there any specific orientation that need to watch when assemble the cable from the relay output to the boiler ? Because on the menu both cable (Steam and Brew on the output relay) are shown with same colour....


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## walpoletim

Hi

Great article

I have sorted the Brew control, and now want to add steam control using the alarm function and an SSR-AC ...

Can anyone send me the wiring diagram, and/or pictures of their setup so I can work out how this is done...

THanks

Tim


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## nicholasj

glevum said:


> looking forward to seeing your end result. After having a Silvia for 4 years i just don't know why i never did mine!


This all looks a bit too complicated for me. Despite the significant benefits of a PID, I just don't see me fitting one to my yet to be delivered Silvia. Shame they don't factory fit!!


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## AussieEx

nicholasj said:


> This all looks a bit too complicated for me. Despite the significant benefits of a PID, I just don't see me fitting one to my yet to be delivered Silvia. Shame they don't factory fit!!


It's really not complicated at all. With the Auber kit you just follow very detailed instructions to assemble a whole lot of pre-cut and terminated wires and a few other bits and bobs. If you can use a screwdriver you can do it. That said, you'll appreciate the PID more after you've been temperature surfing for a year or so...


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## ImthatGuy

AussieExpat said:


> It's really not complicated at all. With the Auber kit you just follow very detailed instructions to assemble a whole lot of pre-cut and terminated wires and a few other bits and bobs. If you can use a screwdriver you can do it. That said, you'll appreciate the PID more after you've been temperature surfing for a year or so...


I'll second the notion that it's not that complicated. I use the MeCoffee PID, but the essential connections are the same. Took me about 30 minutes or so to install, no prior experience.


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## kaffehaus

This looks a good project. I have just built a stc-1000 temperature controller for my brew fridge.


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