# Now, here is a thought



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If there is a following who generally accept the principle that freezing beans that have been roasted prolongs the life of the bean, they why does freezing beans that you have just ground yourself not do the same thing. it is surely, the same principle applied to both?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Are you bored?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

They'll still degrade more quickly given the massively exponential increase in surface area


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Are you bored?


bored no...I just like to understand things


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> They'll still degrade more quickly given the massively exponential increase in surface area


Yes, but the vast majority of that area is not exposed to the elements now is it.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> If there is a following who generally accept the principle that freezing beans that have been roasted prolongs the life of the bean, they why does freezing beans that you have just ground yourself not do the same thing. it is surely, the same principle applied to both?


Why don't you do a little home experiment

Freeze some beans and pre ground ( doesn't have to be huge amounts )

Dial in , pull a shot your happy with , note dose and time and taste

Pre grind 60 g say freeze it ,

Freeze some beans from same batach

Come back after two weeks , pull shots ..


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Yes, but the vast majority of that area is not exposed to the elements now is it.


So the center of the pile of grinds does not freeze?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> So the center of the pile of grinds does not freeze?


What I am saying, is that it is only the grounds that are exposed to the air that stale.......if something is covered by matter lying on top of it, then it is not exposed now......


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Why don't you do a little home experiment
> 
> Freeze some beans and pre ground ( doesn't have to be huge amounts )
> 
> ...


because i do not hold any faith in freezing beans to start with. the point I am making, is that if we accept the usual guff spouted then why can we not question it? If ground coffee was laid out like coffee beans drying in the sun I would understand, but it is not


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

If you accept that freezing helps (which I don't), then freeezing ground coffee would slow down the degradation against the unfrozen ground coffee but would still degrade faster than frozen whole bean.

I'm not sure exactly how one would quantitatively test the degradation of frozen against unfrozen. At present I think it is a war of religion sort of situation. Many will have an opinion with a lot of anecdotal "facts" to back up their argument but no one (so far as I know) can put down hard measurable and repeatable facts.

I am happy to be corrected if mistaken.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> because i do not hold any faith in freezing beans to start with. the point I am making, is that if we accept the usual guff spouted then why can we not question it? If ground coffee was laid out like coffee beans drying in the sun I would understand, but it is not


Only gonna cost you 2 x 50 g beans

You might have some form of unscientific answer....


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

You don't hold faith in freezing beans, and your questioning it, but you will not partake in a test.

Sure your not bored?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ridland said:


> If you accept that freezing helps (which I don't), then freeezing ground coffee would slow down the degradation against the unfrozen ground coffee but would still degrade faster than frozen whole bean.
> 
> I'm not sure exactly how one would quantitatively test the degradation of frozen against unfrozen. At present I think it is a war of religion sort of situation. Many will have an opinion with a lot of anecdotal "facts" to back up their argument but no one (so far as I know) can put down hard measurable and repeatable facts.
> 
> I am happy to be corrected if mistaken.


Well put


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Well put


Cool , lets close this thread then ...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> You don't hold faith in freezing beans, and your questioning it, but you will not partake in a test.
> 
> Sure your not bored?


Froggy, all boots is doing is trying to shove me into a blind alley to shut me up, but he knows me well enough to know he will have to get up a bit earlier to do that. the serious question i am putting to those who have an opinion, is that if freezing roasted beans makes them last longer, then the same will have to happen to ground coffee.

Sp, please do not jump on the bandwagon and take the piss out of me......it is a genuine question and so far, no one has chipped in with anything remotely helpful. I accept this is all opinion, but if you freeze your beans in the belief, then please tell me why freezing ground coffee is treated differently.

I suggest that if I am going to do an experiment, then we all do. get a small container with a good seal, and fill it, never mind this 50 gm stuff. Freeze it for 2 weeks then pull shots until it is used up. I will if others will


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Well put


Why, what you scared of boots. What grounds do you have to close the thread. Do you feel the serious question I put has been answered?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I was just making a suggestion , honest, , you proposed a question , i proposed one way of potentially answering it , so you might be able to come back and give us an informed opinion . Im not sure how it's a blind alley

If you dont wanna do it , no skin of my nose....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Why, what you scared of boots. What grounds do you have to close the thread. Do you feel the serious question I put has been answered?


I was joking....as you well know...as are you


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> I was just making a suggestion , honest, , you proposed a question , i proposed one way of potentially answering it , so you might be able to come back and give us an informed opinion . Im not sure how it's a blind alley
> 
> If you dont wanna do it , no skin of my nose....


The fact that you proposed I, and I alone did your experiment might be mis read as sarcasm when you were trying to be helpful......shoes how bad written medium is at putting suggestions forward


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I know you are joking.....but you are wrong in your assumption that I am joking. I am being deadly serious. If freezing works for one, then it must work for the other. If you put a bit of clingfilm over the top of the roast, then none of it would be continually exposed although I accept as soon as it is ground, that the process begins. All I am suggesting is a way of lengthening the process by which you can store and use coffee. How can anyone object to that?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Why not go one step further after grinding make an espresso and then freeze that !


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> it is a genuine question and so far, no one has chipped in with anything remotely helpful.


Except ridland... who has pointed out the obvious answer.

The answer to your question is simple. If freezing slows down the degradation of unground coffee then it would do the same for ground. However, like leaving ground coffee in a hopper the extra exposure to air (and yes air will get everywhere, its air) and possibly the extra exposure to moisture during freezing will mean it is not as effective as freezing your beans whole.

You want to answer your question with accuracy and/or specifics? Crack out a refractometer, a few blind taste testers and find out, as you well know, no one here would be able to categorically provide an absolute answer.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I just believe you would be better using your time by grinding some beans and sticking them in the freezer, then pull some shots if you are that fascinated in the subject, rather than asking other peoples opinion..

No bandwagon jumping here, i don't even own a band, or a wagon.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Thecatlinux said:


> Why not go one step further after grinding make an espresso and then freeze that !


Good question but not relevant I am afraid. Coffee grounds in a domestic freezer will not freeze. perhaps if left for months. The picture I envisaged was more someone who wants fresh coffee but has no grinder. pops into a local shop, buys some and then takes it home and finds a way of increasing its shelf life


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> I just believe you would be better using your time by grinding some beans and sticking them in the freezer, then pull some shots if you are that fascinated in the subject, rather than asking other peoples opinion..
> 
> No bandwagon jumping here, i don't even own a band, or a wagon.


And as we know

White Men can't jump....


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

When you grind the beans, more of the surface area will be exposed to air, which contains oxygen (causes staling), carbon dioxide also escapes quicker & they degass faster. You won't be able to purge that air from the grinds easily, it will still be there when you freeze the beans. Maybe if you could vacuum pack the beans, this would help...this has been done for both frozen grounds & ambient grounds for decades. How that will pan out for espresso with an unpressurised basket...well, you'll need to test that yourself, will probably work better for immersions (no aggressive extraction via flow rate).

Second issue, is that when you open the container, frozen or not, you now have grounds....what you don't use in a reasonable amount of time will stale, just like it would have done before you froze/vacuum packed them. Freezing dose by dose, remembering to thaw them out before use sounds like more hassle than just grinding before use?...mind you, you could reheat the grinds to just above ambient, with say a microwave, or sous vide...so when you see a WBC competitor go into the finals with a vintage dose of beans, remember you read it here first!







:exit:


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am asking why a principle which seems to be accepted by many (and even boots has pointed us to that unscientific crap on HB before as proof that freezing works)

as helping to elongate beans life, will not work for ground coffee. Is till maintain, it is only the grounds on the top surface, that are exposed to the air whilst in storage.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> And as we know
> 
> White Men can't jump....


Or men with beer bellies, im out!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

So you don't accept the usual guff, that freezing beans has any potential to increase shelf life, but you still want to know if someone can take home ground coffee and potentially increase its shelf life by freezing?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> When you grind the beans, more of the surface area will be exposed to air, which contains oxygen (causes staling), carbon dioxide also escapes quicker & they degass faster. You won't be able to purge that air from the grinds easily, it will still be there when you freeze the beans. Maybe if you could vacuum pack the beans, this would help...this has been done for both frozen grounds & ambient grounds for decades. How that will pan out for espresso with an unpressurised basket...well, you'll need to test that yourself, will probably work better for immersions (no aggressive extraction via flow rate).
> 
> Second issue, is that when you open the container, frozen or not, you now have grounds....what you don't use in a reasonable amount of time will stale, just like it would have done before you froze/vacuum packed them. Freezing dose by dose, remembering to thaw them out before use sounds like more hassle than just grinding before use?...mind you, you could reheat the grinds to just above ambient, with say a microwave, or sous vide...so when you see a WBC competitor go into the finals with a vintage dose of beans, remember you read it here first!
> 
> ...


Mark, I accept what you say above, but in that case the same principle applies to roasted beans. Every time you dip into the freezer, unless you seal them in individual portions, you are exposing the beans to oxygen which one agains starts the staling process. What is good for the goose is good for the gander?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> it is only the grounds on the top surface, that are exposed to the air whilst in storage.


Why on earth would you assume this? The top layer of grounds wouldn't create anything like an airtight seal for the grounds beneath.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dylan said:


> So you don't accept the usual guff, that freezing beans has any potential to increase shelf life, but you still want to know if someone can take home ground coffee and potentially increase its shelf life by freezing?


No, I am saying if you believe one works, then you have to accept the other works, even though we all know that once ground and exposed, it will not last long. Could the conclusion be, that freezing coffee per se, is just rubbish?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> No, I am saying if you believe one works, then you have to accept the other works, even though we all know that once ground and exposed, it will not last long. Could the conclusion be, that freezing coffee per se, is just rubbish?


That's an interesting way to validate competing theories / experiments...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dylan said:


> Why on earth would you assume this? The top layer of grounds wouldn't create anything like an airtight seal for the grounds beneath.


But it must substantially reduce. You could drill a hole in the bottom and put a bung in, then you would be drawing off coffee grounds that have had the most coverage. that would seem to be a winner


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> No, I am saying if you believe one works, then you have to accept the other works, even though we all know that once ground and exposed, it will not last long.


No, you really don't. Not only would the surface of a whole bean be very different to that of a broken down ground bean, but the exposure to moisture and air will be hugely different also.



> Could the conclusion be, that freezing coffee per se, is just rubbish?


Somehow, I thought this might be where you were going with this.

Other people have done experiments, which you dismiss as unscientific rubbish... great, so how about you do some scientific experiments of your own to support your completely unsubstantiated argument?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dylan said:


> No, you really don't. Not only would the surface of a whole bean be very different to that of a broken down ground bean, but the exposure to moisture and air will be hugely different also.
> 
> Somehow, I thought this might be where you were going with this.
> 
> Other people have done experiments, which you dismiss as unscientific rubbish... great, so how about you do some scientific experiments of your own to support your completely unsubstantiated argument?


The fish are biting, hey Dylan? I am not rubbishing at all. the research on HB was totally unscientific yet regularly gets held up as the holy grail. Since no research has been done to the best of my knowledge using domestic freezers which we all have, then i simply wonder how anyone can hold up freezing whole beans yet disagree with freezing ground coffee.

No one has come anywhere near really answering this


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

food from a freezer never tastes as good as its fresh counterpart , why would coffee be any different.

i think the only exception is the humble garden pea


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If someone freezes beans and they like the taste of them, and dont notice a difference in taste ( frozen to unfrozen , ground or bean ) then thats all that really matters for the individual isn't it ?

Whether i think it's a good thing or not is pretty irrelevant...( i dont freeze beans btw )


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Perhaps we should all just resort to rolling our eyes and making jibes whenever you come up with a original way to express your dislike for freezing beans?

You both believe that the experiments are unscientific and insinuate that the process is rubbish...

No one has answered it because no one falls into the category of stating freezing whole beans is different to freezing ground beans, but it is virtually 100% accepted that ground beans stale VERY quickly. The freezing has little to do with drawing a conclusion that freezing ground beans wouldn't work out.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Thecatlinux said:


> food from a freezer never tastes as good as its fresh counterpart , why would coffee be any different.
> 
> i think the only exception is the humble garden pea


And Ice cream..


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If you freeze beans then you can adjust the grind to compensate for any changes that take places while they're in the freezer; if you freeze pre-ground your shots might be out of control once you defrost


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> food from a freezer never tastes as good as its fresh counterpart , why would coffee be any different.
> 
> i think the only exception is the humble garden pea


Ice Cream ?

Findus Crispy Pancakes ...?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dylan said:


> Perhaps we should all just resort to rolling our eyes and making jibes whenever you come up with a original way to express your dislike for freezing beans?
> 
> You both believe that the experiments are unscientific and insinuate that the process is rubbish...
> 
> No one has answered it because no one falls into the category of stating freezing whole beans is different to freezing ground beans, but it is virtually 100% accepted that ground beans stale VERY quickly. The freezing has little to do with drawing a conclusion that freezing ground beans wouldn't work out.


This was a genuine attempt at adult conversation. The question was genuine. If freezing whole beans works (with no scientific proof at all) then the same ought to apply to ground coffee. Probably not for as long. A roaster came on here last year, I think it was Horsham but am probably wrong and he froze 3 lots of beans then pulled coffee off them after a period of time. It sparked plenty of debate, then never went anywhere.

So, if no one is interested in discussing ways of helping people who have no grinder, then i will say thanks and thats me out of this thread


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I think it was Smoky Barn who did some testing last year?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> This was a genuine attempt at adult conversation. The question was genuine. If freezing whole beans works (with no scientific proof at all) then the same ought to apply to ground coffee. Probably not for as long. A roaster came on here last year, I think it was Horsham but am probably wrong and he froze 3 lots of beans then pulled coffee off them after a period of time. It sparked plenty of debate, then never went anywhere.
> 
> So, if no one is interested in discussing ways of helping people who have no grinder, then i will say thanks and thats me out of this thread


it was smokey barn..


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Thecatlinux said:


> food from a freezer never tastes as good as its fresh counterpart , why would coffee be any different.
> 
> i think the only exception is the humble garden pea


So, to flip this back on you, what is the difference between a pea (higher water content, more likelihood of cell structure damage) & a coffee bean (that is already dried & roasted) that makes the process more detrimental to the coffee? If someone said, "how do you like you lentil soup, I made it with frozen dried lentils", would you notice/care/worry?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

IMHO and tests, freezing beans does alter them, they just don't taste the same afterwards. I would always go fresh where possible.

With regards to pre-grinding beans before freezing I can only see this making matters worse as others have said, once the bean is ground then the flavours start to degrade, some say they are no good after 20 minutes to half an hour, I'm not sure exactly how long it actually takes before you can notice a difference, but if you then factor in that the beans do not freeze immediately and the same with the thawing process, you will have a decent period where degradation is occurring even if you freeze right after grinding and pull the shot right after thawing.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Birds eye claim its because they freeze fresh from the field!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> This was a genuine attempt at adult conversation. The question was genuine. If freezing whole beans works (with no scientific proof at all) then the same ought to apply to ground coffee. Probably not for as long. A roaster came on here last year, I think it was Horsham but am probably wrong and he froze 3 lots of beans then pulled coffee off them after a period of time. It sparked plenty of debate, then never went anywhere.
> 
> So, if no one is interested in discussing ways of helping people who have no grinder, then i will say thanks and thats me out of this thread


Once again, your assumption that ground coffee will react in the same way as whole bean to the process of freezing is (imho) way, way off the mark.

Are we really going to keep pretending that the purpose of this thread was to help people without grinders prolong the shelf life of their coffee when you believe the whole process of freezing is a load of rubbish anyway..?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Birds eye claim its because they freeze fresh from the field!


Pancakes grow in a field

Sorry that's Findus isnt it


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> IMHO and tests, freezing beans does alter them, they just don't taste the same afterwards. I would always go fresh where possible.
> 
> With regards to pre-grinding beans before freezing I can only see this making matters worse as others have said, once the bean is ground then the flavours start to degrade, some say they are no good after 20 minutes to half an hour, I'm not sure exactly how long it actually takes before you can notice a difference, but if you then factor in that the beans do not freeze immediately and the same with the thawing process, you will have a decent period where degradation is occurring even if you freeze right after grinding and pull the shot right after thawing.


I said I was not coming back to this but......in that case why do manufacturers and supermarkets etc, sell vast quantities of pre ground coffee with very long shelf life, when they know beyond reason, that is is simply not right. The only time it might be that i can think of, is if you open a bag and tip it all into your drip machine and brew it at once......but who does that?

I went into a deli some time ago and asked if they sold much coffee. they had a few hard on the shelf from tailors of harrogate. They said no, only at Xmas, then someone, an elderly couple came in and bought 250 gems of a bean. It was may, had been in the glass jar since the previous November and was handed over in a brown paper bag.

if consumers accept this, then the world will never change


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dylan said:


> Once again, your assumption that ground coffee will react in the same way as whole bean to the process of freezing is (imho) way, way off the mark.
> 
> Are we really going to keep pretending that the purpose of this thread was to help people without grinders prolong the shelf life of their coffee when you believe the whole process of freezing is a load of rubbish anyway..?


Dylan, you really ought to give me a chance you know. I do not believe in freezing beans but you can do what you want, as can others. I say buy in the quantity you can manage, but this thread was not about rubbishing anything or anyone. It was about debating a point of view


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I said I was not coming back to this but......in that case why do manufacturers and supermarkets etc, sell vast quantities of pre ground coffee with very long shelf life, when they know beyond reason, that is is simply not right. The only time it might be that i can think of, is if you open a bag and tip it all into your drip machine and brew it at once......but who does that?
> 
> I went into a deli some time ago and asked if they sold much coffee. they had a few hard on the shelf from tailors of harrogate. They said no, only at Xmas, then someone, an elderly couple came in and bought 250 gems of a bean. It was may, had been in the glass jar since the previous November and was handed over in a brown paper bag.
> 
> if consumers accept this, then the world will never change


Why did they sell burgers made of horse..? Or at best not question why the burgers were costing 1p to buy

I do not think they are overly concerned with quality or if it is " right " but profit and convenience


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I am asking why a principle which seems to be accepted by many (and even boots has pointed us to that unscientific crap on HB before as proof that freezing works)
> 
> as helping to elongate beans life, will not work for ground coffee. Is till maintain, it is only the grounds on the top surface, that are exposed to the air whilst in storage.


MIT established freezing grinds slowed degredation (note, I'm not saying maintained the same degree of freshness) before HB, or the internet, existed.

George Howell was freezing green beans years ago.

When you grind the coffee all surfaces are exposed to air, unless you remove it, or replace it...air can get into tiny little cracks, less than half an inch I've heard!









The point is less about freezing/not freezing, more about can you extend the qualities of just ground coffee by freezing/vacuum packing/gas flushing & still get good espresso (which let's face it, is what we are discussing here). It's a big ask...I think enough people struggle with coffee in peak condition, before we start adding additional ways to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

I,m trying the vacuum storage option at the moment, don't know if it's my imagination but the beans seem to be lasting longer.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

OK, I accept defeat, even though I was not suggesting it was fact, merely posing a question.

What shall we talk about next?

How about the fact that a lettuce is killed as soon as it is chopped from the plant, so at what point does it become inedible? Presumably that point is reached before it becomes slime and just for the record, I hate lettuce


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

You are bored aren't you


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

mremanxx said:


> You are bored aren't you


No, not at all, and if I was, do you think I would admit it?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I said I was not coming back to this but......in that case why do manufacturers and supermarkets etc, sell vast quantities of pre ground coffee with very long shelf life, when they know beyond reason, that is is simply not right. The only time it might be that i can think of, is if you open a bag and tip it all into your drip machine and brew it at once......but who does that?
> 
> I went into a deli some time ago and asked if they sold much coffee. they had a few hard on the shelf from tailors of harrogate. They said no, only at Xmas, then someone, an elderly couple came in and bought 250 gems of a bean. It was may, had been in the glass jar since the previous November and was handed over in a brown paper bag.
> 
> if consumers accept this, then the world will never change


Because we on this forum are the minority and supermarkets just want to make money. I can make a beverage with pre-ground filter coffee from the super market. I will end up with a cup of coffee, however I know that if I use high quality, fresh beans that are freshly ground then I can make a cup of coffee that's so much more tasty and interesting. Supermarkets cater for the majority and many are happy with nescafe instant or pre-ground as it can still make a drink of coffee. It's sometimes not until you've tasted the other side of the fence that you realise that things could be so much better and some still prefer their mellow birds and if that's what they prefer then who am I to disagree?

There are other factors to me as well like I think that it's harder to get a really bad tasting cup of coffee from pre-ground as there are less compounds in there to make things taste nasty if you get it wrong. You essentially end up with a shadow of the coffee's former self in the cup however it's still coffee.

Places like Rave, Has Bean, Coffee compass wouldn't exist if the world wasn't changing to some degree, however, as with everything in life people like different things and as such there is never a single rule for everyone...


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Do you like peas?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> IMHO and tests, freezing beans does alter them, they just don't taste the same afterwards. I would always go fresh where possible.
> 
> With regards to pre-grinding beans before freezing I can only see this making matters worse as others have said, once the bean is ground then the flavours start to degrade, some say they are no good after 20 minutes to half an hour, I'm not sure exactly how long it actually takes before you can notice a difference, but if you then factor in that the beans do not freeze immediately and the same with the thawing process, you will have a decent period where degradation is occurring even if you freeze right after grinding and pull the shot right after thawing.


Glanville and Babinski pre-grind their beans - http://sprudge.com/behind-the-bar-in-sydney-with-leading-la-coffee-duo-glanville-babinski-54869.html


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Glanville and Babinski pre-grind their beans - http://sprudge.com/behind-the-bar-in-sydney-with-leading-la-coffee-duo-glanville-babinski-54869.html


Only by 15-20 minutes


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

At the risk of injecting some science into this discussion, as MJWB has alluded, the scientific community have already had a stab at answering some of these questions. Purveyors of coffee, ground or otherwise, are obviously going to be interested in ways of improving shelf life and are therefore very motivated to explore all possibilities.

There is a decent paper entitled "Effect of storage conditions on the sensory quality of ground arabica coffee" by Ross et al that was published in the Journal of Food Quality. They demonstrated that the degradation of ground coffee over time was slowed by using cold temperature storage. However, I'm not convinced that oxidisation is the only factor in play here. It is well known that coffee is well populated by endophytes which in turn will produce various secondary metabolites, such as flavanoids and phenolics. It is likely that the decay pathway of these is also interrupted by cold temperatures, which may explain the reduced effect on taste.

If anyone wants a pdf of the paper I am happy to supply.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Freezing most foods is about slowing down multiplication of naturally occurring bacteria ie stopping rot. I don't think this is an issue for coffee is it?*

*edit: barring endophytes apparently

Coffee suffers at least three reactions as it stales:

- loss of volatile oils

- loss of carbon dioxide

- oxidation of the oils

My hypothesis would be that low temperature slows all three reactions because it withdraws the energy necessary for both the physical and the chemical reactions.

My secondary hypothesis would be that grinding coffee beans would reduce the amount of energy required for the first two physical reactions to proceed. It would also increase the area of the coffee exposed (ie the opportunity) to the third chemical reaction.

So, I would posit that although the reactions would be slower than if they were carried out at room temperature, they will still be faster in ground coffee than whole beans.

I note that freezing can cause other forms of damage and adulteration eg freezing water damaging cell structure; desiccation; and transference of flavours. I would think this would make it very difficult to isolate the benefit or not of freezing.

I also note that a certain Italian coffee industrialist concluded that pressurised nitrogen was the way to go ie he didn't go the Birdseye coffee route. Positive pressure would increase the energy required for the first two reactions to proceed. It would also push out the reagent necessary for oxidation to proceed.

It appears I am bored...


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Only by 15-20 minutes


That would probably be enough to horrify most on here. Imagine going into a supposedly reputable establishment, ordering an espresso and the barista picks up a tamper with a dose pre ground in it.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

dfk41

Your original post at the start of this thread did not mention anything about your wondering about freezing pre-ground coffee purchased from supermarkets for example by people without access to a grinder. That only got mentioned after a fair few members weighed in with their opinions.

I've only just read through this entire thread before deciding to post a comment. Initially I was going to ask...why bother grinding whole coffee beans 'then' freeze them? This will surely degrade, to some extent, whatever quality still remains in the beans?

There's definitely two camps regarding freezing beans. Some do it and think that it doesn't affect the taste in the cup significantly enough that they don't wish to do so in the future. I'll generalise here and say they've purchased a larger quantity of beans than they're likely to use within say a month in order to make a 'perceived' saving by purchasing in bulk and/or to qualify for free shipping.

I have never frozen beans and do not plan to. If I was really bored, I would only consider doing so in order to carry out an experiment but I don't see that happening anytime soon! 

Anyone serious about their coffee who has invested in equipment, whether that cost a few hundred for their set up or a few thousand, really should not quibble over a few quid for shipping when ordering fresh beans as and when required. Eliminating any need to freeze beans.

Going back to those without access to a grinder. Who here cannot afford a hand grinder (Porlex for example can be picked up for £15 from China!) yet are willing to pay a few quid for shop bought pre-ground coffee?!? Now just stay with me here...it's rare that you'll see a super great deal on bulk purchasing pre-ground coffee. So why would anyone considering buying so much pre-ground at one time then worry that they're not going to use it within the very long best before dates stated on the packet (whilst it remains vacuum sealed) that they then feel the urge that they need to freeze some so they can extend the already very long window in which it must be used rather than it become stale?

Sorry if this sounds like I'm picking holes in your original thought and question but I am not sure there's a large number of people facing the problem you're suggesting?

Sort of reminds me of Dragons Den when someone thinks they've come up with a bright idea that will help millions, only to be shot down by a Dragon(s) who says you've created a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. Silence ensues before the person(s) quietly leaves with their tail between their legs!

Just saying...


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> That would probably be enough to horrify most on here. Imagine going into a supposedly reputable establishment, ordering an espresso and the barista picks up a tamper with a dose pre ground in it.


Agreed, pretty sure Babinski said in his WBC final performance that he was heading back to the old school way of doing things so that he could improve consistency and better serve the customer. I suppose you could argue what's the point in having amazing espresso if only 1 in 2 shots is amazing and the other is not.


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## Mouse (Feb 28, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ice Cream ?
> 
> Findus Crispy Pancakes ...?


I find that ice cubes out of the freezer are far superior to those out of the tap..


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Agreed, pretty sure Babinski said in his WBC final performance that he was heading back to the old school way of doing things so that he could improve consistency and better serve the customer. I suppose you could argue what's the point in having amazing espresso if only 1 in 2 shots is amazing and the other is not.


Didn't he rever to a " peak " in the final


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Didn't he rever to a " peak " in the final


Yep, he was grinding fresh at WBC but was talking about his shop post routine.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> Do you like peas?


Yes


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> Yes


Do you like cheese?


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Make it easier, make it squeezier...


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> If you put a bit of clingfilm over the top of the roast, then none of it would be continually exposed


Must be some crazy cling film you have to stop the freezer from working!

Glad I don't use that same cling film for my chicken.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Obnic said:


> Make it easier, make it squeezier...


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Freezy squeezy cheesy peas? Next time someone on LSOL talks of strawberry milkshake flavours we'll know what they've done!


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> Do you like cheese?


yes


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