# Texturing milk - please tell me where I’m going wrong



## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Hi all,

I have a Sage DTP which I got at Christmas and I am getting on pretty well making coffee with it thanks to all the help from people on this forum, but I am having problems getting the milk right. I have watched a Sage tutorial on this and I feel I am doing all the right things but what I end up with is half a jug of micro foam on top and half a jug of barely warm milk underneath. I stop steaming when the foam has reached the top and the jug is feeling hot. I then put the steam wand to the bottom of the milk for a few seconds to warm it further. Should the milk be foamier and hotter?


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## InfamousTuba (Feb 5, 2020)

Hi,

Depending on what drink you are making you usually don't want the foam to reach the top of the jug. You almost want to reverse the timing, with less time spent creating the foam and more time heating the milk and creating the vortex that makes the foam smooth.

As far as temperature goes you will get used to how hot it needs to be when you touch the jug, individual tolerances to heat vary so how hot it feels on your hand might not indicate the right drinking temperature

This video is always a good start:


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## Gav86 (Dec 10, 2020)

.


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## Gav86 (Dec 10, 2020)

Emily said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have a Sage DTP which I got at Christmas and I am getting on pretty well making coffee with it thanks to all the help from people on this forum, but I am having problems getting the milk right. I have watched a Sage tutorial on this and I feel I am doing all the right things but what I end up with is half a jug of micro foam on top and half a jug of barely warm milk underneath. I stop steaming when the foam has reached the top and the jug is feeling hot. I then put the steam wand to the bottom of the milk for a few seconds to warm it further. Should the milk be foamier and hotter?


 Sounds a similar issue (more extreme) to what I was getting recently on our classic with a foam cap onto of your milk. Take a look at this thread where I asked for similar advice

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/56631-some-steaming-advice/?do=embed


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Might be worth popping up a unlisted video of you foaming milk onto YouTube....then link to it here. The YT app on your smartphone has a button for video and direct upload to YT in just one press.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Thank you for the replies. I will have a look at the videos and read the thread and have another go tomorrow. I thought I was getting the vortex right but probably not and I am getting a lot of froth, a small layer of textured milk and then some untouched at the bottom. The froth seems to rise very quickly and then I have to obviously stop or it will overflow, which is why I guess it's not getting hot enough as well.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

It often happens that folks end up with some foam sitting on top of some milk......the machine you have is not overly powerful so the video of the guy using an LM might not be appropriate! I would put the steam arm in about 2/3rds down into the milk. Count to ten (you are injecting air in)...bring it up to a1/3rd way into milk.....count to 10 or so then bring it nearer to the top whilst angling the milk jug. You create the foam then incorporate it into the milk so the milk becomes textured all the way through \I use a different technique here but it is not a powerful machine!


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

This video might be helpful:






You can achieve good microfoam with the DTP.

Position the tip as per the video. In the beginning leave the tip slightly below the surface of the milk to get it rolling. Then bring the tip to the surface to get the hissing/tearing sound and introduce air into the milk. Keep introducing air before placing the tip below the surface to incorporate the foam.

I personally would suggest using a milk thermometer, at least in the beginning. With the Sage machine I would introduce air until around 100F and then incorporate until 65C/150F. As you practice, experience will guide you as to whether you have introduced enough air.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/KitchenCraft-Stainless-Steel-Frothing-Thermometer/dp/B000Y9NRMA/ref=mp_s_a_1_5_mod_primary_new?dchild=1&keywords=milk+thermometer&qid=1610905973&sbo=RZvfv%2F%2FHxDF%2BO5021pAnSA%3D%3D&sprefix=milk+th&sr=8-5


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

The DTP can certainly do good foam, although it isn't powerful and takes a while. 
Personally I found you could only really steam for one, and the motta 350ml jug really helped as the shape was spot on. 
In this I used about 150ml of milk to make a flat white. 
You need to get a roll rather than a swirl to incorporate the foam, so the motta jug helps with this.


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## Bladevane (Aug 14, 2019)

@EmilyI understand your frustration. As a rank amateur I am making 4 maybe 6 coffees a day whereas the pros are making 30 an hour. Some of the best advice I heard about frothing is to froth (i.e. admit air into the milk) for 3 seconds if you want a latte, 4 seconds for a flat white and 5 for a cappuccino. The rest of the time keep the nozzle embedded in the milk to create a swirl and dissipate all those air bubbles you created during frothing. For latter and flat the texture should look like wet paint. Works well for me.


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## pcump84 (Nov 1, 2020)

I couldn't do milk for ages and ages. Then I got it by trial and error and now I can't do it again. It hurts my soul when it's hot milk or just foam. I'm using a la Pavoni so I not only have to concentrate on steaming the milk but not giving myself significant burns! Making coffee is fun!


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Today I made just made scalding hot milk and ended up burning my hand before I had a chance to turn the machine off. So I am ignoring said machine for today and have made coffee in my trusty bialetti moka pot and am drinking it Americano. Thank you for all your comments and videos. I have watched them all, and will take your comments on board and, give it another bash tomorrow I guess. 😞


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Emily

Could you show us a photo of the jug you are using and the amount of milk you are putting in it......and if you are comfortable, your approximate location in case once lockdown happens a nearby member might help you!


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Hi dfk

I attached a photo. It came out upside down so i deleted it and went back and turned it the other way up in my photo library but it is still upside down when I attached it here! Anyway, this is my jug and I put milk in up to the bottom of the spout since that seems to be common in a lot of the instructions. I think today basically I may have put the steam wand too far into the milk and then just left it there too long because I was waiting to see some bubbling up which didn't happen and all of a sudden everything was boiling hot and I couldn't handle the jug anymore.


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## Gav86 (Dec 10, 2020)

Emily said:


> Hi dfk
> 
> I attached a photo. It came out upside down so i deleted it and went back and turned it the other way up in my photo library but it is still upside down when I attached it here! Anyway, this is my jug and I put milk in up to the bottom of the spout since that seems to be common in a lot of the instructions. I think today basically I may have put the steam wand too far into the milk and then just left it there too long because I was waiting to see some bubbling up which didn't happen and all of a sudden everything was boiling hot and I couldn't handle the jug anymore.
> 
> View attachment 51405


 Would suggest you pop the wand in relatively deep to start the spin/roll of the milk. Then bring the tip to the surface (hear the paper ripping noise - air being Introduced). Keep there for around 10s whilst maintaining the spin/roll of milk. Then take the tip just below the surface to stop introducing air and keep the milk swirling until you reach temp.

Will take a while to master, you could try practicing with water and a drop of washing up liquid to save wasting milk!


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## Bladevane (Aug 14, 2019)

Beware, a slight physics lesson is coming!! The steam nozzle introduces air when the tip is very close to the surface because the escaping steam creates a negative pressure which induces air into the milk. Nozzle too high and you get spits and massive air bubbles, too low and it doesn't pull in the air. Lesson over.


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## stingray (Aug 4, 2020)

> On 17/01/2021 at 12:49, InfamousTuba said:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> ...


 does he have to SHOUT about it, and back off with that camera please !


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## stingray (Aug 4, 2020)

Emily said:


> Today I made just made scalding hot milk and ended up burning my hand before I had a chance to turn the machine off. So I am ignoring said machine for today and have made coffee in my trusty bialetti moka pot and am drinking it Americano. Thank you for all your comments and videos. I have watched them all, and will take your comments on board and, give it another bash tomorrow I guess. 😞


 it's not an easy skill, and I found it took so long to get my Sage up to pressure that microfoam was not really poss, and result lacked body.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Emily said:


> Hi dfk
> 
> I attached a photo. It came out upside down so i deleted it and went back and turned it the other way up in my photo library but it is still upside down when I attached it here! Anyway, this is my jug and I put milk in up to the bottom of the spout since that seems to be common in a lot of the instructions. I think today basically I may have put the steam wand too far into the milk and then just left it there too long because I was waiting to see some bubbling up which didn't happen and all of a sudden everything was boiling hot and I couldn't handle the jug anymore.
> 
> View attachment 51405


 A favourite way of practicing, is to substitute tap water fro milk then add one drop of washing up liquid. It behaves in exactly the same way as milk and means you can practice as much as you want!


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

Gav86 said:


> ...try *practicing* with water and a *drop of washing up liquid *to save wasting milk...





dfk41 said:


> ...A favourite way of *practicing*, is to substitute tap water fro milk then add one *drop of washing up liquid*...


 i claim repetition; so give me my 10 points :classic_tongue:


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Sorry to bore on asking questions about this lol. I am improving a bit. Today I made what I thought was the perfect jug full. It seemed to be completely emulsified when I stuck a spoon in it but when I poured it into my coffee there was a lot of runny milk underneath still. Basically I did this:

Put cold milk in to just below the spout level (so under half way)

Put the tip of the wand in to the aerate for about 20 secs or so (till the milk rose about 50% in the jug)

Then put the wand in deeper to emulsify until the milk had risen to the top and I had to stop at that point.

I copied the above from a video. Milk was at least hot this time. Do I need more aeration or more emulsifying? Also I did my first latte art. I will attach a photo. I don't think it will matter that the photo will be upside down when it uploads 😂


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

I find there is quite a fine line, after you have stretched the milk in the first phase, as to how high/low you put the wand. It sounds like you might have put it a bit too low in the milk as you ended up heating the milk and moving it around below the foam you created. The aim is to mix the foam/air you have introduced through the milk under it, so maybe try not going quite as deep but not so high you can hear more air being introduced.

If you haven't got a milk jug thermometer I can drop one through your door on Saturday night when I collect our Chinese from Go Sing...


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

(I should have said that the stages of stretching, mixing, stopping(!) all link to milk temps... that's why I mention the thermometer)


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

itguy said:


> If you haven't got a milk jug thermometer I can drop one through your door on Saturday night when I collect our Chinese from Go Sing...


 Thank you so much but I realised I had a 1950s dairy thermometer that my MIL gave me ages ago. She gave it me for making yogurt but yogurt is best when judge the temperature by eye/experience so I didn't use it. Hopefully it works. It only has Fahrenheit.



HVL87 said:


> personally would suggest using a milk thermometer, at least in the beginning. With the Sage machine I would introduce air until around 100F and then incorporate until 65C/150F. As you practice, experience will guide you as to whether you have introduced enough air.


 So these are the temperatures I am looking for?


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

The only thing I'd say about that is making sure it reacts quick enough, as you may overshoot the required temperatures quite quickly.

I work in degrees C (so convert as needed for F) but stretch / introduce air until 40c, then move to mixing/rolling/incorporating until 60-65c, depending on how hot you like it.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Emily said:


> Thank you so much but I realised I had a 1950s dairy thermometer that my MIL gave me ages ago. She gave it me for making yogurt but yogurt is best when judge the temperature by eye/experience so I didn't use it. Hopefully it works. It only has Fahrenheit.
> 
> So these are the temperatures I am looking for?
> 
> View attachment 51528


 That thermometer may not be appropriate considering its size - it will be awkward to use and may interfere with the milk steaming. Also not sure on the lag between actual temp and reading. Might be worth buying one, they are relatively inexpensive, or taking up @itguy on his kind offer.

From what I remember on the barista express (same steam wand as DTP), I used to stretch until 100F and stop incorporating at 140-150F.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

@itguy could I take up the kind offer of the thermometer? Please don't worry about it if it will be inconvenient, I don't want to be a pain ☺


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Yes of course. I'll pop you a message so I know which letterbox to put it through !


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

I just want to let you know you are not alone.

My 3 coffees today consisted of hot milk

Froth so bad it trippled in size and I could not stop it!!! It just took over so I turned off the steamer 😭

Then what i thought was a decent attempt, my daughter said its a sad flat, lying down heart 🤣


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Hahaha Tinkstar, it really isn't easy is it? What is so frustrating is I have been making fab textured milk with a cafetière for a years but I am determined to crack this otherwise I am only using half of my machine so £150 worth of it is going to waste. Will probably end up spending that much on practice milk 😂 (actually I don't waste the practice milk, I use it up in everyone else's drinks and make lots of custard).


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

It's a skill for life and one that you don't forget. Plus, the technique is the same when you get into bigger power machines with more steam too.

What will happen though is you'll feel very annoyed when you buy a "barista" coffee on the high street and it has awful milk. Like that torture screaming milk sound where it is begging for mercy.. 😩


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

itguy said:


> What will happen though is you'll feel very annoyed when you buy a "barista" coffee on the high street and it has awful milk. Like that torture screaming milk sound where it is begging for mercy.. 😩


 I have experienced this too often now and tasted horrific coffee.

I'm making bitter and sour coffees now with too much and too little foam (too much i tell my self I did it traditional style to keep my bitter coffee warm 🤣)but I can drink them, bought some non drinkable from local small coffee shops, crazy!


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> Hahaha Tinkstar, it really isn't easy is it? What is so frustrating is I have been making fab textured milk with a cafetière for a years but I am determined to crack this otherwise I am only using half of my machine so £150 worth of it is going to waste. Will probably end up spending that much on practice milk 😂 (actually I don't waste the practice milk, I use it up in everyone else's drinks and make lots of custard).


 What find up setting, is i look at the jug think, today is the day, today that milk is calling for latte art...

I pour, I pour, I wait for the foam to form at the top, and I have a milky coffee with no signs of foaming.

Or PLODGE HAVE FOAM ON TOP OF YOUR COFFEEEEEEE

Zero middle ground most coffees ha


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

My best so far, daughter called it a laying down heart, bit flat, and not very heart shaped 🤣


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

That's not at all bad! I'd say you're milk is nearly there and practice with the pour will get you where you want to be now...


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Tinkstar that is really good! I would be well chuffed if I created that.



itguy said:


> Like that torture screaming milk sound where it is begging for mercy..


 I'm afraid I may be a milk torturer 😂


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

@itguy Thermometer is great! Did 2 practices today. First was rubbish because I only aerated for a few seconds. Second lot was the best so far - lots of foamy stuff and HOT 👍 Not perfect yet, so gotta keep trying. Hopefully cappuccino by Monday is going to be my goal.


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Great stuff - once you've used it for a while you'll be able to gauge how hot the milk is just by holding the jug (or not.. as it gets to 65c!) so you can ditch the thermometer then. Useful training aid.

Next time you are in costa (I know...) just watch theirs as it goes right off the scale past 180+f !!


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

@itguy that was such a nice gesture with the thermometer for @Emily.....you Sir are a gentleman....it's the little things like this that restores my faith in humanity 😋


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Rumpelstiltskin said:


> @itguy that was such a nice gesture with the thermometer for @Emily.....you Sir are a gentleman....it's the little things like this that restores my faith in humanity 😋


 Wheres my yorkshire kind folk 🤣


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Rumpelstiltskin said:


> that was such a nice gesture with the thermometer for @Emily.....you Sir are a gentleman....it's the little things like this that restores my faith in humanity 😋


 Agreed! ☺


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Rumpelstiltskin said:


> @itguy that was such a nice gesture with the thermometer for @Emily.....you Sir are a gentleman....it's the little things like this that restores my faith in humanity 😋


 It's really not a bother. Where @Emily lives is really only a couple of villages away from me and no home barista needs three milk thermometers.. just happen to have collected them over the years.

My current favourite one is this: a CDN fast acting digital one, which is really quick and can switch between C and F easily.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0021AEAG2/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_.0XcGbH35421T


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

itguy said:


> That's not at all bad! I'd say you're milk is nearly there and practice with the pour will get you where you want to be now...


 No clue how to recreate this milk texture as I believe i am following the same process 🤣 come on @Emily show some pictures, rooting for you!


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

@Tinkstar How are you getting on with this? My success rate is 50% at the moment. First time, I just get a jug of hot milk, so I try again and then I get it right. Like you, I don't feel like I am doing anything different each time. It must be a really fine line between getting it totally right/totally wrong. I must have watched about 10 YouTube videos on this so I fully understand the process but sometimes it works, sometimes it don't 😂


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> @Tinkstar How are you getting on with this? My success rate is 50% at the moment. First time, I just get a jug of hot milk, so I try again and then I get it right. Like you, I don't feel like I am doing anything different each time. It must be a really fine line between getting it totally right/totally wrong. I must have watched about 10 YouTube videos on this so I fully understand the process but sometimes it works, sometimes it don't 😂


 Totally the same.

I made perfect silk looking texture milk, did fudge all for latte art tho 🤣


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> made perfect silk looking texture milk


 I'd settle for this ^^^^^^^ I think you're doing better than me.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> I'd settle for this ^^^^^^^ I think you're doing better than me.


 I think my mugs are too big and using too much of the milk, noticed most latte artist have left over milk in the jug 🤷‍♂️


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

I have my first grinder arriving next week so things will really kick off then when I will need to coordinate grinding, pulling shot and steaming milk 😂 Kitchen will be a bombsite. I am expecting to be able to produce a decent cappuccino around March time 👍


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Emily said:


> I am expecting to be able to produce a decent cappuccino around March time 👍


 March of which year Emily😂


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Tinkstar said:


> I think my mugs are too big and using too much of the milk, noticed most latte artist have left over milk in the jug 🤷‍♂️


 I don't think that really matters too much. Best to use an appropriate sized pitcher for your cups if you can. My cups are also fairly large (300ml), I probably need smaller ones. I use a 500ml milk pitcher (measures to the brim) and fill it halfway just below the spout to start with 250ml - that should expand to 300ml (ish) with the right amount texture.

Some pour the textured milk from one pitcher to another to further incorporate - just need to make sure the one you're pouring into is warmed up if you don't want to lose temp.

It is surprising (or not) how important having properly textured milk is for latte art. I'm no expert but once you get the milk right it makes it a lot easier that's for sure. It's just difficult to know when you have decent milk in the first place 😄 When you swirl it in the pitcher you can gauge the consistency based on how it catches on the side. I need a new hobby..


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Emily said:


> @Tinkstar How are you getting on with this? My success rate is 50% at the moment. First time, I just get a jug of hot milk, so I try again and then I get it right. Like you, I don't feel like I am doing anything different each time. It must be a really fine line between getting it totally right/totally wrong. I must have watched about 10 YouTube videos on this so I fully understand the process but sometimes it works, sometimes it don't 😂


 Obvious question - are you purging your steam wand before you use it to steam the milk? By this, I mean are you running the steam wand into the drip tray to get any build up of condensation / water out of it first? If you're not, it might be that you are adding water into your milk and that's why your first steaming isn't as good as your second.

Another consideration is what type of milk you are trying to steam.

If you're not already, try and use whole milk. It is much easier to learn with and creates decent textured milk easier than semi skimmed or skimmed.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Hi, yes to both - purging and using whole milk. ☺


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Ok, well it's probably just technique then.. 🤣😩

I actually found the sage jug quite good for steaming too (ie shape/weight/size) - practice makes perfect !!


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Yep I agree 😂 I have proved to myself I can do it, now I just need to be consistent.

I'm going to see if I can get a job at Costa.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Emily said:


> I'm going to see if I can get a job at Costa.


 I thought you have already nailed the "torture screaming milk" sound as @itguy put it so well 😄


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Emily said:


> Yep I agree 😂 I have proved to myself I can do it, now I just need to be consistent.
> 
> I'm going to see if I can get a job at Costa.


 You'll already be too good for them... don't lower yourself!!


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

The irony is I actually prefer black coffee. But I am bl***y well going to learn how to do this if it kills me.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

HVL87 said:


> I don't think that really matters too much. Best to use an appropriate sized pitcher for your cups if you can. My cups are also fairly large (300ml), I probably need smaller ones. I use a 500ml milk pitcher (measures to the brim) and fill it halfway just below the spout to start with 250ml - that should expand to 300ml (ish) with the right amount texture.
> 
> Some pour the textured milk from one pitcher to another to further incorporate - just need to make sure the one you're pouring into is warmed up if you don't want to lose temp.
> 
> It is surprising (or not) how important having properly textured milk is for latte art. I'm no expert but once you get the milk right it makes it a lot easier that's for sure. It's just difficult to know when you have decent milk in the first place 😄 When you swirl it in the pitcher you can gauge the consistency based on how it catches on the side. I need a new hobby..


 I dont like your tone with this hahaha i need a few excuses 🤣


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Tinkstar said:


> I dont like your tone with this hahaha i need a few excuses 🤣


 😂 well to be honest you're completely right - if you don't have the right machine, pitcher, cup or milk you're fighting a losing battle. A good workman always blames his tools...I'm sure that's the quote 🤔


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

@Emily

I did omg I did it!

I made hot milk again that looked 110% like the youtubers milk but mine was just hot and did 0% art 🤣

Meet blob, this is complex art with complex issues 🤣


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

@Tinkstar Amazing! 😂 I love abstract art and I think you have totally nailed that concept. 👌

On my third milk-torturing effort today, I made THE most perfect jug of silky melted ice cream like milk. Sadly I had no coffee to get artistic with, but watch out later in the week for my attempts......


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> Yep I agree 😂 I have proved to myself I can do it, now I just need to be consistent.
> 
> I'm going to see if I can get a job at Costa.


 Does this mean you did some art? *excited*


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> Does this mean you did some art? *excited*


 Haha don't get excited too soon, though I did manage a squiggle yesterday. I was trying to do one of those tree patterns, I had my phone at the ready to take a photo but it was so bad I just thought nah.


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Hearts are SO much easier than ferns to start with 

It is fair to say that the standard Sage jug isn't the most helpful with doing latte art either. Not the steaming bit, but the pouring part.

I tend to use a Motta small jug and it has a nice spout on it that helps, plus the steaming swirl in the bottom section is slightly easier because of the shape.

Like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Motta-03-Europe-stainless-Pitcher/dp/B001RZUMUA/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=motta%2Bjug%2B35&qid=1611732819&sr=8-2&th=1


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Just going to leave this here...🖤🤎💜💙💚💛🧡❤


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

LOOK AT THAT!

Well done... now do it again 50 times LOL !!


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## jonr2 (Jan 6, 2021)

i feel your pain - i am in a similar situation wanting to learn how to do this just because but actually preferring coffee without milk.

everytime i try i can hear my old art teacher signing and tutting over my shoulder (well actually its my know it all teenage son 🙂) but still

may even be brave enough to share a picture soon 🤣


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> Just going to leave this here...🖤🤎💜💙💚💛🧡


 Tink, that art is so cute! Understated 👍 You are improving.



jonr2 said:


> I tend to use a Motta small jug and it has a nice spout on it that helps, plus the steaming swirl in the bottom section is slightly easier because of the shape.


 Yes, I have seen these and read they help with steaming as well. Another item for the list ☺



jonr2 said:


> i feel your pain


 Thank you for your empathy, pain is an understatement lol. Steaming milk has almost reduced me to tears but I am becoming so much more consistent and have developed my own little technique which is now working. Latte art will follow, but later than promised 😂


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

I was up till stupid am last night watching YouTube again.

It clicked.

I was over heating the milk, probably loads, good minute or so more steaming than all of them.

Hoping to repeat it, my espresso actually tasted nutty today too, so win win 🤣


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Tinkstar said:


> I was over heating the milk, probably loads, good minute or so more steaming than all of them.


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

So important to have a milk thermometer to start with so you can learn your hand feel temperature 👍


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> was up till stupid am last night watching YouTube again


 I can't face any more YouTube milk steaming videos right now 😂


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> ...I was up till stupid am last night watching YouTube again...


 me too :classic_blush: ...it's an addiction i just can't seem to overcome....i think i may need help.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Rumpelstiltskin said:


> me too :classic_blush: ...it's an addiction i just can't seem to overcome....i think i may need help.


 Glad I'm not alone 🤣


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

@Emilyhows it going? I've managed nothing since my big step up. Back to you tube, and specifically searches with my machine 🤣


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Hi @Tinkstar I have taken a big step back from the steam wand this week because I had a grinder arrive. I have had it a few days now and still haven't got to grips with it. I have ordered a couple of cups online for flat white and cappuccino so at some point (in the next year maybe 🤔) I will have to link all three activities (grind, pull shot, milk) together. Not gonna lie, the thought of this is pretty daunting. I only now make coffee when my partner is out or I have to put up with him smirking or offering helpful comments like "it seems to make a lot of mess" or "it's like watching Laurel and Hardy at work".

What machine do you have?


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> Hi @Tinkstar I have taken a big step back from the steam wand this week because I had a grinder arrive. I have had it a few days now and still haven't got to grips with it. I have ordered a couple of cups online for flat white and cappuccino so at some point (in the next year maybe 🤔) I will have to link all three activities (grind, pull shot, milk) together. Not gonna lie, the thought of this is pretty daunting. I only now make coffee when my partner is out or I have to put up with him smirking or offering helpful comments like "it seems to make a lot of mess" or "it's like watching Laurel and Hardy at work".
> 
> What machine do you have?


 Haha I just do all 3 all the time, each cup i hope each gets closer 🤷‍♂️

Barratza prezico grinder.

2012 gaggia classic with a PID (which for me just digitally tells me the temp lol)

I take a sip of each shot.

Then steam me milk and make hot milk or a cup of bubbles 🤣

Never wasted a drink as its very milk heavy 300ml of milk ish and occasionally add 1 scoop of galaxy hot chocolate 🤷‍♂️🤣 im a 34 year old man child.


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## jonr2 (Jan 6, 2021)

i feel this thread is about at my level ......

new beans arrived on Sat - poured some in grinder same setting as previous, added beans to portafilter, pulled shot - took approx 22s for 1:2 ratio shot, increased dose by 0.5g and tried again - took 30s - felt really proud of myself, tried tasting them - could taste a difference - felt even more proud.

sunday am came down - did exactly the same (or so i thought) - 1st shot took 15s, 2nd took 45 - gave up and went for a run 😞

this is maddening right - but somehow every now and then i manage something which is drinkable and it lifts my spirits - but this is hidden in between lots of mess.

have decided not to bother with any more videos - my head is full - trial and error is the way for a bit - wish me luck.

my philosophy is that eventually it will click and then it will all seem worth it - stick with it and sure you will get there too 🙂


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

Emily said:


> Hi @Tinkstar I have taken a big step back from the steam wand this week because I had a grinder arrive. I have had it a few days now and still haven't got to grips with it. I have ordered a couple of cups online for flat white and cappuccino so at some point (in the next year maybe 🤔) I will have to link all three activities (grind, pull shot, milk) together. Not gonna lie, the thought of this is pretty daunting. I only now make coffee when my partner is out or I have to put up with him smirking or offering helpful comments like "it seems to make a lot of mess" or "it's like watching Laurel and Hardy at work".
> 
> What machine do you have?


 I've a shining new MaraX but currently grinding with a MBK Feldgrind. Surprising using a hand grinder hasn't been the genital ache I feared it would. It's a 90 second (yes I'm sad enough to have timed myself) burst workout for.my shoulders and forearms. My espresso is quite tasty from this combo.

I can quite capably knock out well textured milk as well.

Now if you are looking for latte art of clouds and blobs. I'm your man. My wife's description of what my attempts to make a heart in the cup are simply not fit to be here on a family friendly webpage.


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

jonr2 said:


> ...*my head is full* - trial and error is the way for a bit - *wish me luck*...


 nah, there's always room for a bit more, hang in there and yes you've guessed it "*good luck*" :classic_biggrin:


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

jonr2 said:


> this is maddening right - but somehow every now and then i manage something which is drinkable and it lifts my spirits - but this is hidden in between lots of mess.


 This sums up my experience 😂 A Forrest Gump quote keeps popping into my mind. "Espresso is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get"


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

Emily said:


> This sums up my experience 😂 A Forrest Gump quote keeps popping into my mind. "Espresso is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get"


 Ha ha lmao...best thing i've read today :classic_laugh:


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## jonr2 (Jan 6, 2021)

Emily said:


> This sums up my experience 😂 A Forrest Gump quote keeps popping into my mind. "Espresso is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get"


 so true - its like my machine has the mind of a Las Vegas fruit machine - i am gonna remember that quote here's another - 'stupid is as stupid does'


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## stingray (Aug 4, 2020)

one more tip. Use as cold milk as you can, I also leave my milk jugs in fridge. Milk that's too warm just does not texture right.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

stingray said:


> one more tip. Use as cold milk as you can, I also leave my milk jugs in fridge. Milk that's too warm just does not texture right.


 To be honest I don't think steaming with a room temp pitcher and milk recently out of the fridge will make much difference to the final texture. A cold pitcher and milk just gives you more time to introduce and incorporate air into the milk. You can achieve the same result in a shorter space of time.


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## Mark McGuire (Nov 20, 2020)

Hi Emily, I'm a DTP owner and started to take more interest in using the machine properly once the first lockdown hit last year, having been making 3/4 milk based coffees a day ever since I still haven't completely mastered getting perfect milk, what I found useful was swapping the Sage jug to a larger one, I guess the amount of room for the milk to swirl helps, I would say I am getting decent paint textured milk 2/3 of attempts by tearing the milk at the surface for approx 10 seconds then lowering the tip marginally for up to a minute until it's hot. I use semi skimmed which makes life harder but helps with the calorie count...good luck with your continued efforts.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Thank you @Mark McGuire, I am getting better, but it's definitely more of a challenge than making the coffee part. Luckily I don't drink too much milk, but that also means less chance to practice. I agree I need a better jug, I was also advised to go with the jug that has a fatter bottom. I keep forgetting to look online but really must put it on the list along with my next coffee bean order (if the roaster has accessories). I do find though that 10 seconds is not long enough for getting air in but that is probably my rubbish technique 😂


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## Waitforme (Dec 13, 2020)

I've been finding that less air injecting is giving me much more consistent results.

I must time my next one, I've been looking to see the milk expand by 20% then I put the tip deeper to get the swirl without more air.

Maybe the guys in the videos are using 4 hole steam tips with more steam pressure to get the job done in 10secs ?

The jug I use is a 350ml motta, but I may get a 500ml.

When I get it right then the 350 is big enough to keep the milk contained for one large latte.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

@Tinkstar So, photo is to prove I did try! I think my issues are cup is really small so only takes a couple of seconds to fill. It's already half full of coffee so not much time to be artistic lol. Also I am putting too much air into the milk so it's just pouring in a blob. At least I think. AND I'm not liking the coffee when I add milk. It's too bitter/sour/strong. So not a great effort really 😔

(Actually can't get the photo to download atm but it was just a swirl so you can use your imagination 😂)


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

So how are you dialing in the coffee?

And what are you going to do to get less air? Less jiggingling up and down ? 🤣


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> @Tinkstar So, photo is to prove I did try! I think my issues are cup is really small so only takes a couple of seconds to fill. It's already half full of coffee so not much time to be artistic lol. Also I am putting too much air into the milk so it's just pouring in a blob. At least I think. AND I'm not liking the coffee when I add milk. It's too bitter/sour/strong. So not a great effort really 😔
> 
> (Actually can't get the photo to download atm but it was just a swirl so you can use your imagination 😂)


 My wife bought me some glass cups for valentines day, 180 and 230ml isb cups I think, small...

I burnt my mouth and tongue this morning as I used a small pitcher and ***** it heats up fast and I tool a huge swig 😭😭😭 lesson learnt. Half the milk = significantly hotter


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> So how are you dialing in the coffee?


 I'm using 18 ish grams then going for a 1:3 ratio. Which is about 50g out. It's sort of quite nice for espresso but is not working really with milk unless my expectations are all wrong


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> And what are you going to do to get less air? Less jiggingling up and down ? 🤣


 Yes gonna try a bit less jug-bobbin 😂😂😂


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> I'm using 18 ish grams then going for a 1:3 ratio. Which is about 50g out. It's sort of quite nice for espresso but is not working really with milk unless my expectations are all wrong


 So... is it the milk? Too hot? So not as sweet?

I'm using 20g and 40g out otherwise I just taste milk, but I'm having 300ml milk which I appreciate is a lot.

Do you taste the espresso before adding milk?


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Maybe I am using too much coffee but my recipe for flat white (that I got online) is 2 oz coffee to 3.5 oz milk. I use a 5.5 oz cup. So quite a lot of coffee to milk. But that is the recipe 🤷‍♀️ That's about 100ml of milk. Not much. I'm trying to make authentic flat whites. I don't want to end up with miniature lattes 😂. The whole drink needs to be less overpowering. It doesn't taste like the flat whites I've had before.


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## InfamousTuba (Feb 5, 2020)

Emily said:


> Maybe I am using too much coffee


 I always go by getting the best tasting espresso I can then adding the milk. Flat whites can have more or less coffee in them it really just depends on what beans you are using, and how they taste best. It isn't a lot of milk which makes it hard to start with, because it always feels like you are done almost instantly after you start pouring.



Emily said:


> miniature lattes 😂


 Depending where you get them from, flat whites might just be miniature lattes, the rules aren't all that rigid

You could always try messaging on social media some of the places you have had good flat whites from before and they will probably tell you how they make them or which beans they use.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> I'm using 20g and 40g out


 I think I will have a try doing this ^^^ for milk based drinks. Then do longer shots for espresso. See if that works. Who knows? 😂🤷‍♀️


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> I think I will have a try doing this ^^^ for milk based drinks. Then do longer shots for espresso. See if that works. Who knows? 😂🤷‍♀️


 I wouldnt follow my examples 🤣🤣


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## zoglet (Jun 1, 2010)

After many weeks of banging my head against this same subject, I have come to accept i have a very low skill level and can consider myself lucky to have got hot milk in the cup without spilling it.

I decided that the best route was to create a new barista skill, "latte fart", and by that definition, I hit the mark pretty much every time.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> I wouldnt follow my examples 🤣


 I'm grasping at straws 😂



zoglet said:


> decided that the best route was to create a new barista skill, "latte fart", and by that definition, I hit the mark pretty much every time.


 😂😂😂😂


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

I think also, my jug pours too fast for doing art in small cups.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> I think also, my jug pours too fast for doing art in small cups.


 Youtube suggested coffee world champions last night.. thats different!


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

This stressed me out 😩

Maybe not 20g then...


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## jonr2 (Jan 6, 2021)

Emily said:


> This stressed me out 😩
> 
> Maybe not 20g then...
> 
> View attachment 53293


 oh dear but yes the basket does look very full - maybe try 18g / 36g out - good luck


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> This stressed me out 😩
> 
> Maybe not 20g then...
> 
> View attachment 53293


 O nooooooooo I assume that basket says no to 20g 🙈


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Emily said:


> This stressed me out 😩
> 
> Maybe not 20g then...
> 
> View attachment 53293


 Oh dear 😅

20g is too much for the DTP basket, sorry stating the obvious now.

17g or 18g is good 👍


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

At what point do we give up, throw our arms in the air and say...

I make an excellent foam topped cappuccino


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> what point do we give up, throw our arms in the air and say...


 Now. It's doing my head in a bit. It's such hard work 😓


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

I try to limit posting here much, but you guys seem like you may need a bit of help with the Sage milk steaming - something that I also struggled with for ages. I always struggled to texture the milk until I started listening to the milk like some phantom milk whisperer. Of course, I can now steam milk like I belong in the world barista championships, and produce the latte art to match.

Anyway, I digress, here's an imgur link to a video or two that I made when I was steaming on the Barista Express (same internals as DTP just with an added grinder I believe). Please excuse the godawful latte art at the end of the video, but as you can see the milk was textured enough to be able to generate art. Also this was on the jug that came with the Sage.

http://imgur.com/a/XAZmvAy

Are you purging the wand before steaming?


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Hows it going ?

I've run out of coffee and used some store beans the wife kindly (not so kindly YUCK) Bought. Smells of oily fish , safe to say it didn't change haha and it's gone in the bin lol.

Though, the darker beans made latte art look better 🤷‍♂️

Today I had a good result, got a thermometer and I can heat up more than I did before and know its safe, I have sensitive soft hands so can't touch it 🤣 I get to 50 and I can't touch it 🤣


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

I have been looking at supermarket beans 🙊- thought I might try some out of curiosity. The local coop has a selection....😂 I have a bag of Black Cat Twilight ready to start tomorrow first.

Didn't make anything yesterday as our power was off and the leccy company had to bring us a generator in the end. Only just been connected back to the grid so had to resort to the moka pot again. So I had a treat today which was espresso with whipped cream in it and it was really good!

Am still fretting about the portafilter falling out so I am holding it now while pulling the shot 😂 and now my machine is making some very loud boiling noises which is worrying.......

Grinder fixed yet?


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> I have been looking at supermarket beans 🙊- thought I might try some out of curiosity. The local coop has a selection....😂 I have a bag of Black Cat Twilight ready to start tomorrow first.
> 
> Didn't make anything yesterday as our power was off and the leccy company had to bring us a generator in the end. Only just been connected back to the grid so had to resort to the moka pot again. So I had a treat today which was espresso with whipped cream in it and it was really good!
> 
> ...


 I just ordered 2 more 1kg back from blackcat.

Cheaper than supermarkets 🤣

I have my bits, I have found the manual of how to replace. Now just to do it, but it's finding time with no kids, and no list of chores from the wife 🤣

I'm sure you will have it tight enough.

I descale my machine the other day, not as hard as I expected 👍 maybe your machine needs some tlc?


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> I descale my machine the other day, not as hard as I expected 👍 maybe your machine needs some tlc?


 Just ordered some descaler. Hopefully it will be ok until it arrives!


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> just ordered 2 more 1kg back from blackcat.


 That's loads. How do you store it to keep it fresh? Or do you get through it quickly? 😂


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> That's loads. How do you store it to keep it fresh? Or do you get through it quickly? 😂


 Well... I has a 3 month shelf life and I go through a 1kg in 2-3 weeks 🤷‍♂️


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

I am still confused about 'resting' beans and how long/when to use them by/ where to store them etc. I didn't know for instance, you could keep them for 3 months? I assume that's in unopened bags. That makes life much easier! I put mine in the freezer, didn't know what else to do with them 😂


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

Tinkstar said:


> Hows it going ?
> 
> I've run out of coffee and used some store beans the wife kindly (not so kindly YUCK) Bought. Smells of oily fish , safe to say it didn't change haha and it's gone in the bin lol.
> 
> ...


 I was the same! I was stopping at 55 and didn't realise until I got a thermometer!


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

For resting, I uy 1kg, rest for two weeks, then freeze in small (100-200g) batches as airtight as possible and defrost as needed.

I grind straight from frozen, the condensation helps remove static. But you want to limit the number of times you open/close a frozen batch as each time you're bringing in more water.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> I am still confused about 'resting' beans and how long/when to use them by/ where to store them etc. I didn't know for instance, you could keep them for 3 months? I assume that's in unopened bags. That makes life much easier! I put mine in the freezer, didn't know what else to do with them 😂


 I keep 1 kg back open other closed. I put some in hopper and some I'm a glass container. The remainder in the bag gets a lock on 🤷‍♂️ nothing crazy


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## stingray (Aug 4, 2020)

HVL87 said:


> To be honest I don't think steaming with a room temp pitcher and milk recently out of the fridge will make much difference to the final texture. A cold pitcher and milk just gives you more time to introduce and incorporate air into the milk. You can achieve the same result in a shorter space of time.


 Works for me. Give it a try.

"Always start with milk that's as cold as possible - it takes air better, and gives you more time to work it. Some people even store their pitchers in the freezer. "

https://www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/how-to/milk-frothing-for-beginners-5-tips


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

stingray said:


> Works for me. Give it a try.
> 
> "Always start with milk that's as cold as possible - it takes air better, and gives you more time to work it. Some people even store their pitchers in the freezer. "
> 
> https://www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/how-to/milk-frothing-for-beginners-5-tips


 As I mentioned it just gives you more time to steam milk to temp. If that helps you, great. I seem to manage perfectly fine with a room temp pitcher 👍


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## Nleng (Sep 30, 2020)

I haven't got a sage, but I've been going through similar struggles with my own steaming attempts.

I've recently figured out I was using more milk than my jug could adequately handle. Reducing the amount of milk seemed to help produce a better vortex and consequently better microfoam.

I also increased the temperature of the steam boiler after which I got some of my best results. I'm not sure how it helped other than reducing the time I had to mess up the process.

It's reassuring to see I'm not the only one struggling. It seems like everyone has a different method for achieving the same result but none of them work for me 😅


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

@Nleng it's definitely a steep learning curve 😂 I am going back to my Bialetti milk frother for a while to take a break from the stress!


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Cooffe said:


> I try to limit posting here much, but you guys seem like you may need a bit of help with the Sage milk steaming - something that I also struggled with for ages. I always struggled to texture the milk until I started listening to the milk like some phantom milk whisperer. Of course, I can now steam milk like I belong in the world barista championships, and produce the latte art to match.
> 
> Anyway, I digress, here's an imgur link to a video or two that I made when I was steaming on the Barista Express (same internals as DTP just with an added grinder I believe). Please excuse the godawful latte art at the end of the video, but as you can see the milk was textured enough to be able to generate art. Also this was on the jug that came with the Sage.
> 
> ...


 That noise just a couple of seconds before the end of the video is the noise you're after. I don't even bother holding the milk jug any more. Just put it on the drip tray with the wand in the milk at the 5 o'clock position, start the steam and then raise the wand enough to get that sound until it's reached 30 degC on my (separate) milk thermometer. Then bury the wand until 65 degC. I did this just this morning:


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Nleng said:


> I haven't got a sage, but I've been going through similar struggles with my own steaming attempts.
> 
> I've recently figured out I was using more milk than my jug could adequately handle. Reducing the amount of milk seemed to help produce a better vortex and consequently better microfoam.
> 
> ...


 Welcome to the 'struggling club. Personally I am coming up to 3 months. My art is starting to get there consistently blobbish, some form of art, and the once a week take a picture and post it everywhere!!!

Make a thread and we can support, with lots of 'we are in the same boat so keep paddling'


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## Nleng (Sep 30, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> Welcome to the 'struggling club. Personally I am coming up to 3 months. My art is starting to get there consistently blobbish, some form of art, and the once a week take a picture and post it everywhere!!!
> 
> Make a thread and we can support, with lots of 'we are in the same boat so keep paddling'


 Thank you. I've been impressed with your progress, I've yet to make anything photo worthy... yet!

I'll keep paddling and sharing anything that might help.


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## Mark McGuire (Nov 20, 2020)

One fairly weird development for me is that I am now unable to heat the milk with the wand at 4 or 5 o clock in the jug, I've switched to 9 o clock with the milk swirling anti-clockwise. I tried to go back to clockwise the other day and had a complete mental block, anyway swirling anti-clockwise seems to work for me, maybe its muscle memory on where to hold the jug.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Mark McGuire said:


> One fairly weird development for me is that I am now unable to heat the milk with the wand at 4 or 5 o clock in the jug, I've switched to 9 o clock with the milk swirling anti-clockwise. I tried to go back to clockwise the other day and had a complete mental block, anyway swirling anti-clockwise seems to work for me, maybe its muscle memory on where to hold the jug.


 Im position 11/10 and anti clockwise. Just more comfortable 🤣 and science something something, I know what I'm doing, something something 🤣


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Mark McGuire said:


> One fairly weird development for me is that I am now unable to heat the milk with the wand at 4 or 5 o clock in the jug, I've switched to 9 o clock with the milk swirling anti-clockwise. I tried to go back to clockwise the other day and had a complete mental block, anyway swirling anti-clockwise seems to work for me, maybe its muscle memory on where to hold the jug.


 It probably doesn't matter as long as you have "the vortex" going.
(Get me, trying to sound like I can give advice now 😂)


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## Mark McGuire (Nov 20, 2020)

I calling this a monkey puzzle tree, bit more practice needed!


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Mark McGuire said:


> I calling this a monkey puzzle tree, bit more practice needed!
> 
> View attachment 54466


 I love it, like a bird in flight, with a fancy tail 😁


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)




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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

I think... I'm at the point I say, am I at the limit of my steamer? Never getting more definition...

Wonder if the best barristas can use my machine and get it to do 'art lol


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

The jug helps a lot too.


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## RichC (Mar 12, 2021)

I am definitely in the bad latte art camp. I can get reasonably textured milk,i just can't pour it well. I managed to fluke this without really trying today which was a shock as my previous best was a kind of blob.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

RichC said:


> I am definitely in the bad latte art camp. I can get reasonably textured milk,i just can't pour it well. I managed to fluke this without really trying today which was a shock as my previous best was a kind of blob.


 Go make your own thread this is too good ????

I struggle that fine line between enough bubbles and too much. I can as i have shown get some art. But If I less bubbles it's hot milk more bubbles and it's a mountain of bubbles foam... I can't seem to get any more definition ????

Today's effort...


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## _HH_ (Oct 10, 2018)

Hey!

Thanks for making such a useful and interesting thread. I have a DE1+ now, but previously had a Sage dual boiler so am pretty familiar with the Sage machines. Two things really helped me (aside from lots and lots of practice), and it took me about a year of making 1-2 milk drinks a day (I wouldn't call what I produced back then a flat white!) before I could reliably make marks on the crema, so I think you guys are definitely faster than me!

This is what helped me, hopefully you might find it useful.

1. Weigh your milk! This sounds excessively exacting, but you want to build up muscle memory by doing as close to exactly the same thing many many times. By always using the same amount of milk you are cutting out your main variable (milk volume), which means you will always need to use the same amount of time to get it to a consistent temperature.

2. Make your flat whites in a glass. This sounds stupid, but I still do this whilst learning on my Decent as it shows me exactly how much air I have added to my milk. For example, in a ceramic cup you can only see the top of the drink and how pretty (or not!) it looks. In glass you can see the depth of foam you are adding on the top, which you can't assess if the drink is poured into ceramic. Since doing this I now know I tend to add waaaaaay too much air and so have worked to dial this back by reducing the stretching stage and focussing on just heating the milk.

Hope that helps! Shout if you have any questions or I can help at all.









This photo isn't me trying to show off, just showing you that I've been through the blob phase and you will get there too!


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## RichC (Mar 12, 2021)

Tinkstar said:


> Go make your own thread this is too good 🤣


 By contrast today's effort was just white - I overfoamed the milk big time.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

_HH_ said:


> Hey!
> 
> Thanks for making such a useful and interesting thread. I have a DE1+ now, but previously had a Sage dual boiler so am pretty familiar with the Sage machines. Two things really helped me (aside from lots and lots of practice), and it took me about a year of making 1-2 milk drinks a day (I wouldn't call what I produced back then a flat white!) before I could reliably make marks on the crema, so I think you guys are definitely faster than me!
> 
> ...


 I too found glass cups amazing for that extra visual, but now I'm in the middle stage of 'finesse' I am not sure if I need more or less 🤦‍♂️

All the guides help you go from no art to phenomenal art 🤣🤦‍♂️


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## _HH_ (Oct 10, 2018)

Tinkstar said:


> I too found glass cups amazing for that extra visual, but now I'm in the middle stage of 'finesse' I am not sure if I need more or less


 I think if you steam a bit less you'll end up with crisper definition to your milk


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> Welcome to the 'struggling club. Personally I am coming up to 3 months. My art is starting to get there consistently blobbish, some form of art, and the once a week take a picture and post it everywhere!!!
> 
> Make a thread and we can support, with lots of 'we are in the same boat so keep paddling'


 I'm in the same boat very often as well and that's a year on (old dog and new tricks comes to mind). Sometimes when the universe is aligned it turns out amazing ( for me anyway) but more often than not its a sad, soggy blob but then I think life is just too short to fret about the small things. I would rather have a good shot than beautifully stretched milk but then again both would be good.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Hmmmm I am still struggling with milky drinks - it has been ages now since I started this thread!! 😂 I am trying lots of different ways to get there, but things that work one day just don't work a few days later. People have been brilliant giving advice, for which I am very grateful! I have loads of knowledge and tips but actually applying it is a totally different matter. My milky drinks still taste rubbish, my milk is sometimes just runny, sometimes overheated, and if I froth it in a milk frother it is overaerated 😂

I have a new cunning plan. I have recently been making the milk in a Bialetti milk frother instead of using the steamer -but that is not working. Too much to think about along with having to make the espresso. And it tastes rubbish too. So instead I am going to make the coffee in a moka pot and steam the milk with the steamer wand. That takes half the stress out of the process and it tastes really nice then. I will still make my espresso drinks with my machine though.


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

Emily said:


> Hmmmm I am still struggling with milky drinks - it has been ages now since I started this thread!! 😂 I am trying lots of different ways to get there, but things that work one day just don't work a few days later. People have been brilliant giving advice, for which I am very grateful! I have loads of knowledge and tips but actually applying it is a totally different matter. My milky drinks still taste rubbish, my milk is sometimes just runny, sometimes overheated, and if I froth it in a milk frother it is overaerated 😂
> 
> I have a new cunning plan. I have recently been making the milk in a Bialetti milk frother instead of using the steamer -but that is not working. Too much to think about along with having to make the espresso. And it tastes rubbish too. So instead I am going to make the coffee in a moka pot and steam the milk with the steamer wand. That takes half the stress out of the process and it tastes really nice then. I will still make my espresso drinks with my machine though.


 If your using a Bellman Emily and you can stretch milk through that thing then you have nothing to worry about!


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

_HH_ said:


> I think if you steam a bit less you'll end up with crisper definition to your milk


 Steam less as in less air or less heating ?


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## _HH_ (Oct 10, 2018)

Tinkstar said:


> Steam less as in less air or less heating ?


 Less air. Heat it as hot as you like it, but above 70'C or so you will find it scalds and loses its creaminess.

Edit - in case it's helpful I found it easier to go from aiming for just hot milk then slowly adding more air rather than the usual 'make a paper tearing noise for ten seconds and reduce it if it's too much'.


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