# A Milk Question



## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Ive been making cappucinos for Mrs WD which have been going down well. She prefers them made with UHT milk due to the creamy flavour of the milk.

I realise that its all down to personal taste but should she be tried for crimes against coffee or is UHT milk an acceptable ingredient in the world of coffee ?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

working dog said:


> Ive been making cappucinos for Mrs WD which have been going down well. She prefers them made with UHT milk due to the creamy flavour of the milk. I realise that its all down to personal taste but should she be tried for crimes against coffee or is UHT milk an acceptable ingredient in the world of coffee ?


Guess it's whatever floats your boat. Personally, I'm not that keen on milk based drinks but SWMBO is. She likes semi-skimmed or skimmed milk which I think is an abomination. As for soya milk!!?? But each to his or her own.


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Guess it's whatever floats your boat. Personally, I'm not that keen on milk based drinks but SWMBO is. She likes semi-skimmed or skimmed milk which I think is an abomination. As for soya milk!!?? But each to his or her own.


I usually have a cappuccino/flatty once per day, and I usually use the Duchy Ayrshire milk... It is the only whole milk that hasn't been put through the **** ram pump.

I flirted with Cravendale for around a week (it stretches really well), until I read just how the stuff is made, and I immediately returned to the former.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

SJ, how can we read what you have about Cravendale? I use it all the time but you have whetted my appetite now!


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

I'm guessing it's horse milk.


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

The point about processing milk is to keep it non-toxic, and for a reseller it is beneficial to be able to keep it for as long as possible, even forever, there is never a benefit for the consumer, unless you are someone that likes a flavour that a particular form of processing engenders, because the second that the bottle is open it starts to sour, even longlife.

The Cravendale process is to micro-filter the milk and to homogenise it (both lengthen shelf life), whilst a product might be technically safe, I am not really in favour of over-processing anything, especially since there is Duchy non-**** milk that is probably only a few days old (less than a week) when it reaches the shelf.

I think that when it comes down to it, it is a matter of personal choice, I just don't like the idea that that stuff could be weeks old despite its lovely creamy stretched milk... In my experience, the Duchy stuff gives an even creamier texture/flavour, although it can be a bit of a problem in the summer when the cream solidifies.

So, nothing outrageous to report about Cravendale, it just isn't for me.


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

I drink Lactofree Whole since realising it was lactose causing horrendous stomach upsets after coffee, it's also by Arla and filtered in some way, this stuff goes off stupidly quick though, smells off after three days! It does however make a really good cappuccino. But I still prefer espresso now ....

Cravendale surely can't be that bad as it's supplied at the UKBC as standard, but sjenner is right in over processing stuff...


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I made a post in another thread a while ago, but processing goes in to most of our foods now, and most of it, as above, is to extend the shelf life for the benefit of the manufacturer.

Buying things like semi-skimmed (where milk powder is added to make it whiter, and a lot of the good stuff removed in the process) and the extra processing of cravendale are on the whole negative things. There is a lot of recent study into the additives in our food being a leading cause of the rise in food allergies and possibly linked to other illnesses that are on the rise. This isn't just milk, but just about any food that has any processing at all.


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> I made a post in another thread a while ago, but processing goes in to most of our foods now, and most of it, as above, is to extend the shelf life for the benefit of the manufacturer.
> 
> Buying things like semi-skimmed (where milk powder is added to make it whiter, and a lot of the good stuff removed in the process) and the extra processing of cravendale are on the whole negative things. There is a lot of recent study into the additives in our food being a leading cause of the rise in food allergies and possibly linked to other illnesses that are on the rise. This isn't just milk, but just about any food that has any processing at all.


Further to this theme of the dangers of over-processing foodstuffs, here is a small piece I read about homogenised milk... It was produced by someone called Dr Kurt Oster, head of cardiology in Connecticut.



> Homogenisation forces the milk under extreme pressure, through tiny holes. This breaks up the normally large fat particles into tiny ones and forces the fat to form tiny molecular clusters, thus ensuring that the molecules do not regroup and form a cream layer on top of the milk. Instead, in this denatured state, they stay suspended in the milk. However, not only do they not regroup, the process also makes digestion almost impossible. The tiny molecules enter the bloodstream directly as undigested fat - not exactly the best for human health./QUOTE]
> 
> There are a number of these types of reports on the net.
> 
> As D_Evans states, over processed foods should just be avoided, since we don't know what they do, or what has been done to them.... Horsemeat anyone?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I finally watched Food Inc after making that post yesterday. Now I cant eat anything


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## Lynx (Jan 17, 2013)

I presume even full fat milk pasturised these days is homogenised, I remember when I was growing up and whole milk always had cream on top of the milk bottles, old red top milk I think it was called in brum.

Lynn


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

Lynx said:


> I presume even full fat milk pasturised these days is homogenised, I remember when I was growing up and whole milk always had cream on top of the milk bottles, old red top milk I think it was called in brum.
> 
> Lynn


Not Duchy (Prince Charles's mob), their special Ayrshire cow milk is very tasty... Also Unigate (the delivery carts) still carry the old silver top and Gold Top neither of which are homogenised, not sure whether you have Unigate in Birmingham though.


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## Lynx (Jan 17, 2013)

sjenner said:


> Not Duchy (Prince Charles's mob), their special Ayrshire cow milk is very tasty... Also Unigate (the delivery carts) still carry the old silver top and Gold Top neither of which are homogenised, not sure whether you have Unigate in Birmingham though.


i've not seen silver top or gold top milk bottles for years around brum.


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> I finally watched Food Inc after making that post yesterday. Now I cant eat anything


I had never heard of this film but I have now seen it and I am so glad that I try not to get involved with the processors.

I haven't had McDonalds since I watched a young girl suffer with salmonella and then die after eating "nuggets" (I didn't put chicken in front, one cannot be certain that it is!)... 22 years old. Instead, I will buy one chicken once a month (roughly) but it will usually be something like http://www.suffolkfoodhall.co.uk/producers/view/blythburgh-free-range-pork-2 it will usually cost more than £25, but man it tastes good, and makes about three meals and a big pot of stock, so it's tremendous value.

I try to think about all the food that I buy...

However, mostly I reckon that food processing is a "good thing", since many people around the world are not able to be as discriminating as me and this food is very cheap.

The choice between bad food and no food is a (as they say) no-brainer.


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## ElectricSloth (Mar 14, 2013)

I can't stand milk in coffee or tea, the taste is awful and I have health conflicts with pasteurised milk. In my opinion, nothing beats a coffee with a tiny amount of coconut oil and some grass-fed butter. YUM.

Maybe coconut milk (stuff in the carton) wouldn't be too bad health-wise, and would probably taste similar/better than milk.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

sjenner said:


> I had never heard of this film but I have now seen it and I am so glad that I try not to get involved with the processors.
> 
> I haven't had McDonalds since I watched a young girl suffer with salmonella and then die after eating "nuggets" (I didn't put chicken in front, one cannot be certain that it is!)... 22 years old. Instead, I will buy one chicken once a month (roughly) but it will usually be something like http://www.suffolkfoodhall.co.uk/producers/view/blythburgh-free-range-pork-2 it will usually cost more than £25, but man it tastes good, and makes about three meals and a big pot of stock, so it's tremendous value.
> 
> ...


Its an amazing documentary. I cant fully agree with you however, one of the most shocking facts for me in that documentary was US selling corn to Mexico at a loss, thus putting all their corn farmers out of work, then US companies actively (and illegally) recruiting the farmers that had just lost their jobs, making them work in conditions most of us would be ashamed to see a criminal work in, and then having agreements to hand them back to authorities like criminals, but slow enough so it doesn't effect their production lines.

We need a better way of helping the poor feed themselves than a system that does that, the poor from Mexico are being exploited to make it work.

edit: I say "we", obviously it is an american documentary, but our own food industry is so similar in its structure it is likely to have similar crimes.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Lynx said:


> i've not seen silver top or gold top milk bottles for years around brum.


Go to waitrose and get the Organic unhom'd semi or full-fat. These are staples in our house and produce some of the best tasting coffee/milk drinks we have had anywhere!


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Go to waitrose and get the Organic unhom'd semi or full-fat. These are staples in our house and produce some of the best tasting coffee/milk drinks we have had anywhere!


gonna try some of that - which would you choose for a flat white, the semi or the full-fat?


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## Lynx (Jan 17, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Go to waitrose and get the Organic unhom'd semi or full-fat. These are staples in our house and produce some of the best tasting coffee/milk drinks we have had anywhere!


I'll give that a go garydke1,

Thanks


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## NorvernAdam (Mar 13, 2013)

My parents have always bought Skimmed Milk so I never really got the option of tasting a coffee with anything else but. Until the day I went to my Great GMa's house and she made me a cup of the good stuff with full fat milk and every sip I took was like a smooth silk blanket caressing my taste buds, it is safe to say I was converted to the dark side of milk from a health nut's perspective


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> Its an amazing documentary. I cant fully agree with you however, one of the most shocking facts for me in that documentary was US selling corn to Mexico at a loss, thus putting all their corn farmers out of work, then US companies actively (and illegally) recruiting the farmers that had just lost their jobs, making them work in conditions most of us would be ashamed to see a criminal work in, and then having agreements to hand them back to authorities like criminals, but slow enough so it doesn't effect their production lines.
> 
> We need a better way of helping the poor feed themselves than a system that does that, the poor from Mexico are being exploited to make it work.
> 
> edit: I say "we", obviously it is an american documentary, but our own food industry is so similar in its structure it is likely to have similar crimes.


You are right D_Evans, it is brutal, but in cold terms, the human race is thriving, the population is expanding at an accelerating pace, and some of that must be down to the abundance and comparatively low prices of modern food production.

I disagree with the methodology, the corporatism, the skewing of the "fabled" free market, the interaction between government and the producers, the the grift, the graft and the general pushing around and disregard of the welfare of the "plebs", but I reckon that history teaches us that it was usually worse in the past.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

aphelion said:


> gonna try some of that - which would you choose for a flat white, the semi or the full-fat?


The semi is the one we use 95% of the time. rationale being 1. find it a touch sweeter which is better for lower volume drinks, 2. lower calories, 3. steams wonderfully. Note - I steam until bottom of the jug is 'almost' too hot to touch, this will be cooler than most shops.

An example of the semi -

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/296357141583896576
Now the full fat is also very good, but its a lot richer and works better with very acidic coffees which cut through more.

Maybe try both?!


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> The semi is the one we use 95% of the time. rationale being 1. find it a touch sweeter which is better for lower volume drinks, 2. lower calories, 3. steams wonderfully. Note - I steam until bottom of the jug is 'almost' too hot to touch, this will be cooler than most shops.
> 
> An example of the semi -
> 
> ...


Yep will do for sure.. I like the idea of full fat countering the acidity

Thanks


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

sjenner said:


> You are right D_Evans, it is brutal, but in cold terms, the human race is thriving, the population is expanding at an accelerating pace, and some of that must be down to the abundance and comparatively low prices of modern food production.
> 
> I disagree with the methodology, the corporatism, the skewing of the "fabled" free market, the interaction between government and the producers, the the grift, the graft and the general pushing around and disregard of the welfare of the "plebs", but I reckon that history teaches us that it was usually worse in the past.


It is more down to the advancement of how we produce food, it has little, if anything, to do with the need for an inhumane system. The only thing driving the need for such a system is the corporate system and how much money goes into the pockets of those at the top. We as the 'first world' could feed the world with the money and power we possess but it simply is not the nature of the system we live in to do so, profit rules above all else.

What if we still had slavery? Was it and would it ever be a justification that the west thrived because of it?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

D_Evans said:


> It is more down to the advancement of how we produce food, it has little, if anything, to do with the need for an inhumane system. The only thing driving the need for such a system is the corporate system and how much money goes into the pockets of those at the top. We as the 'first world' could feed the world with the money and power we possess but it simply is not the nature of the system we live in to do so, profit rules above all else.
> 
> What if we still had slavery? Was it and would it ever be a justification that the west thrived because of it?


I was shocked to see just how much perfectly consumable fresh food gets discarded within 1st world society, youre right it could feed less well off nations.

On a side note , we are so happy getting fresh eggs from our hens & intend to start a mini allotment at the end of the garden to produce more of our own herbs/veg etc. Think we need to be more 'local' and self-sustaining


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

garydyke1 said:


> I was shocked to see just how much perfectly consumable fresh food gets discarded within 1st world society, youre right it could feed less well off nations.
> 
> On a side note , we are so happy getting fresh eggs from our hens & intend to start a mini allotment at the end of the garden to produce more of our own herbs/veg etc. Think we need to be more 'local' and self-sustaining


Have you looked at aquaponics? Using fish waste to fertilise plants and the plant bed to filter the fish water - apparently you can get really great yields of veg. Something I would like to look into given more time. Eventually I would like to live as self- sustainably as possible, I love the idea of being 'off grid' but I'm not quite ready for that yet!


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## peche (Dec 2, 2012)

I've been watching this thread with interest - following garydyke1's advice I picked up 2 pints of the Waitrose organic semi skimmed earlier and am already looking forward to tomorrow morning's latte! I've had success with Cravendale in the past so will be interested to see how the Waitrose stuff turns out.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

lookseehear said:


> Have you looked at aquaponics? Using fish waste to fertilise plants and the plant bed to filter the fish water - apparently you can get really great yields of veg. Something I would like to look into given more time. Eventually I would like to live as self- sustainably as possible, I love the idea of being 'off grid' but I'm not quite ready for that yet!


Mate, our hens produce some nutrients of their own !


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> What if we still had slavery? Was it and would it ever be a justification that the west thrived because of it?


As I said, It was always worse in the past...

My point about production and some of the methods that are used by factory farmers, was that despite the horror stories they are feeding the world... This is no thanks to governments that insist on making life difficult for everyone in order for it to pursue its little projects. I read the other day that for the first time in human history, there was enough food and farmland to feed the world's 7 billion, and that no new land would be needed.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/17/us-crops-idUSBRE8BG0QH20121217

The question that you posed about slavery is interesting, in that I cannot see that it has come to an end, it has just had an image refresh, and people have renamed slaves.... migrant workers, there was a historical intermediate position too... the "indentured" worker. None of it is just, it just is and I would suggest that the alternative, which would be "state farms" as in Cuba or the former USSR, where slaves were/are all the rage, and the food was never enough and the quality/yield was always poor. At least the current system is effective.

Overall, I agree with you though, the system is brutal but possibly justified by the fact that everyone gets fed. It is a fact of life that some people are in a position to be more discriminating, and if we can decide that we don't like a particular kind of milk... it is because we are in a historically unique position.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Lets say in order to feed your family you needed to steal a loaf of bread, we can all see this as an acceptable crime as the price of the crime is low, where the need is great.

If we were in a position where we NEEDED this system to produce the amount of food we do then there could be an argument for justifying the state of the system, but this is a ends justifying the means argument.

The point is that we dont need it, it is there as it is the most profitable system for those who run the companies. It is absolutely within our means to produce food for the world without the need to use 'modern slavery' the problem is putting the money into the means to do so.


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