# Help and advice



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

Hi, am new to this whole espresso at home thing but I love coffee and decided I really want to get my own espresso machine but there us so much choice and things to consider between models ect, could someone please help me in making the decision of what to purchase.

Thank you


----------



## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

How much do you have to spend, on machine and grinder?

How many drinks a day would you think you will drink?

What type of drinks will you be making, espresso, milk based drinks?


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> How much do you have to spend, on machine and grinder?
> 
> How many drinks a day would you think you will drink?
> 
> What type of drinks will you be making, espresso, milk based drinks?


Well I want a machine that will last and make a great coffee drinks per day would be only weekends x3 or one in mornings Tue to fri

Not thought about grinder tbh thought already ground coffee would be fine or us this wrong?

I would be making cappuccino, mochas ect so yeah plenty milk drinks

I have seen that the Rancilio Silvia V4 2015 Edition and gaggia classic are good but which is best rather not spend £400 Lol but I suppose it's an investment saves money on crappy costas


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Bigal said:


> Not thought about grinder tbh thought already ground coffee would be fine or us this wrong?


Grinder is really key to be honest; a good quality grinder that delivers consistently is important (when you can afford one) - without that you'll almost certainly be better off at Costa! (maybe...)


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

What is your budget - and is it fixed!?

The go to entry level kit on a budget is a Gaggia classic (Seen them used at £80-150) and either a hand grinder (I think Rhino or Porlex will cope with espresso? new at £30/35) or a cheap electric grinder (Iberital MC2/Graef CM something - used at £80ish).

Many people will knock these last 2 grinders - the MC2 is rustic...


----------



## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Grinder, Grinder, Grinder!

You can get a set up that includes a used classic and used hand grinder off here for £400 easy.


----------



## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

out of all the coffee styles in the world to drink, espresso is the one that relies most heavily on having a grinder ..... preground will be a nightmare for your espresso machine. Chances are even if you stand on your tamper, the water will most likelypour straight through the grind and will put you off drinking espresso at home ever again.

The god shot for most people is trying to get 36g of water evenly through 18g of espresso at pressure in about 30 seconds ...... this requires a decent grinder capable of producing an even fine grind that than be constantly altered as the bean ages.

TL ; DR .. you need a grinder .. a burr Grinder !


----------



## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

I'll put forward a few suggestions. Both new. I have no experience with either.

Also you may get a better deal on the machines I'm putting forward, im just providing links so you can peruse them.

Graef ES85 espresso machine and graef Cm800 grinder

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Graef-Siebtrager-Espressomaschine-ES-85-Kaffeemuhle-CM-800-Set-Kaffee-Muhle-/131606787480?hash=item1ea4603598:g~sAAOSw37tWApP6

Sage: the barista express . Cost more, has built in grinder, but comes with lifetime guarantee (of somekind)

http://www.lakeland.co.uk/17962/Sage-The-Barista-Express?gclid=Cj0KEQiAsZayBRCrioKRkYetvc0BEiQAI70-A-G6hYk5nihSGlK6ejKUnShSh_jp5ho7G9YOfbDuayAaAvSb8P8HAQ&src=gfeed&s_kwcid=AL!49!3!79953128309!!!g!42886515384!&[email protected]:20151113181946:s


----------



## frederickaj (Jul 31, 2014)

The costs for the New equipment ,I admit is startling . The 2nd hand route is by far the best . A Decent Classic and an entry level grinder will be a good point to start and could cost around £200-250 ( £14 for classic and £80 + for the grinder ) Regrettably Upgraditis will soon creep in !!!!


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Plus point of getting a Classic is that there's loads of info on here about them. They are easy and cheap to do the basic mods on, and you could probably shift a good used one on for around the same as you paid for it. Aim for a pre-Philips one with the bigger solenoid if you can, or at least one with a solenoid (not the latest mechanical one).

A grinder is more important though as it enables you to use fresh beans, the better the grinder, the better the coffee.


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Another vote for a used Classic from me. Plus a good grinder.

A Classic can produce some good results with a bit of tweaking and some fantastic results with a good grinder.


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

Rhys said:


> Plus point of getting a Classic is that there's loads of info on here about them. They are easy and cheap to do the basic mods on, and you could probably shift a good used one on for around the same as you paid for it. Aim for a pre-Philips one with the bigger solenoid if you can, or at least one with a solenoid (not the latest mechanical one).
> 
> A grinder is more important though as it enables you to use fresh beans, the better the grinder, the better the coffee.


How do u know which is pre Phillips?


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=272017441843&alt=web

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=191735784932&alt=web

These look good. The classic is already modded and from what I father that's a good thing right?

The other looks brill but carnt find much info on it but its not a bad price I believe?

Thank you so far guys loving this forum and learning about coffee


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

What's is this temperature surfing also? Is it good to have a pid on the machine to set the temperature?


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

I know nothing about the lelit but 350 is approaching entry level HX machine pricing.


----------



## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Bigal said:


> What's is this temperature surfing also? Is it good to have a pid on the machine to set the temperature?


Temperature surfing is done with machines like the classic because they have quite a wide temperature band where the machine accepts it's OK. It's means you can get quite a variation in your drinks, if you don't surf, because it can be relatively cold one shot and hot the next or vice versa. Surfing is trying to get you a consistent temperature each time. I didn't do it to know the steps but searching the phrase should give you ideas on what to do.

If you can find a machine with a PID then it takes away the need to surf and controls the temperature more accurately, they can be (relatively) expensive to buy depending on the type but if you find one already fitted it gives you a head start


----------



## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

Gaggia classics modified can be picked up for £150 and very good grinders (mazzer Super jolly) can be picked up second hand for £200.

Plenty to play with for £350. Should keep you happy for years.

Iberital MC2 are great beginner grinders but you may feel that you want to upgrade quickly should you find you have a passion for good espresso.


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

made my mind up its a silvia am going for, they look better and feel better made than the gaggia classic.

does anyone have some tips on what to look out for on a second hand silvia

will be putting a pid on it also unless I can find one already done as I did see one on this forum sell recently.

still unsure what grinder to get though only got around £60-£100 for one though


----------



## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

A wise choice the silvia. I hope you stick to that.

I imagine a few comments now that you arnt spending enough on the grinder though


----------



## CFo (Aug 25, 2013)

Bigal said:


> made my mind up its a silvia am going for, they look better and feel better made than the gaggia classic.
> 
> does anyone have some tips on what to look out for on a second hand silvia
> 
> ...


Predictably, I'm going to say that you are getting the balance between machine and grinder wrong. You are proposing what I thought when I started, but you really do need to think of spending at least as much on the grinder as the machine. If you stick to your current plan, get an MC2, but I suspect you will want to upgrade very soon.


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

CFo said:


> Predictably, I'm going to say that you are getting the balance between machine and grinder wrong. You are proposing what I thought when I started, but you really do need to think of spending at least as much on the grinder as the machine. If you stick to your current plan, get an MC2, but I suspect you will want to upgrade very soon.


would that grinder be better than a rocky? its either great grinder no coffee machine or good machine with decent to average grinder


----------



## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

the main beef about the rocky is its stepped


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> the main beef about the rocky is its stepped


Stepped? Not sure what this means not heard or read anything about this


----------



## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

you've got a bit of research to do









by no means a definitive guide, but will lead you on the road to enlightenment


*Grinder Type**Stepped**Stepless**What is it?*These grinders have preset notches, which enable you to easily switch between disparate grinds.Rather than guess where you're setting the grinder for espresso, then drip coffee and then back again, you'll have referential numbers and settings to work from.Stepless grinders are for those of us who want the fluidity to choose our grind with an infinite amount of options.These grinders have no reference points, as a result, but enable to more finitely dial in your grind.

http://blog.seattlecoffeegear.com/2012/06/08/want-to-step-up-your-grind-stepless-vs-step-grinders/


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> you've got a bit of research to do
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some stepless grinders will have reference points and if they don't then you can add 'reference points' of course - with a sticker or something physical.

There was someone here recently who had made some dial to go on top of a super jolly to enable easy reading of where the Grind was at.


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

Tbh stepped sounds easier for a beginner, stepless sounds like its by feel but for someone new to this its like being even more blind to making a great espresso


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

You'd definitely be better off with stepless - stepped prevents you dialling in as accurately as you otherwise might...

Have you already made your mind up to get the Rocky and are just looking for someone to say "yes go for it"?


----------



## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

I think the main difference between stepped and stepless is the fact you have micro adjustability to tweak the grind, where as stepped, well, you have steps.

In between these steps maybe the precise setting you need the grinder on for maximum enjoyment of the coffee beans, and this will elude you with stepped.


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> I think the main difference between stepped and stepless is the fact you have micro adjustability to tweak the grind, where as stepped, well, you have steps.
> 
> In between these steps maybe the precise setting you need the grinder on for maximum enjoyment of the coffee beans, and this will elude you with stepped.


I understand yeah maybe better idea then. thank you


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

jonc said:


> You'd definitely be better off with stepless - stepped prevents you dialling in as accurately as you otherwise might...
> 
> Have you already made your mind up to get the Rocky and are just looking for someone to say "yes go for it"?


no haven't made my mind up with anything tbh except the silvia. yeah think stepless is the way to go.

are the stepless machines more?


----------



## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Bigal said:


> Tbh stepped sounds easier for a beginner, stepless sounds like its by feel but for someone new to this its like being even more blind to making a great espresso


Thats what I thought when I got my 1st grinder .... I was wrong, it took me a week to realise that 5 on the dial meant the shot washed through and 4 on the dial meant the machine took 60seconds + to produce 36g

steeples is easy, dial it in and as you notice the shots getting quicker or the channeling starting, just give a it a tweak tighter and it falls in place ..... once you change beans ... dial it back out to where it normally is and start again


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Bigal said:


> no haven't made my mind up with anything tbh except the silvia. yeah think stepless is the way to go.
> 
> are the stepless machines more?


Not necessarily; what's your budget now for this - up to £100?

An MC2 which is BASIC - costs used ~£80 - and it's stepless, but BASIC and noisy!


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

jonc said:


> Not necessarily; what's your budget now for this - up to £100?
> 
> An MC2 which is BASIC - costs used ~£80 - and it's stepless, but BASIC and noisy!


yes roughly £100 obviously if a great deal came along and was a bit more but not a lot then I would go for it

is there any issues to look for when getting a second hand mc2?


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

so the mrs has said she will split the cost of a better machine that doesn't require me to fit a pid to get a stable temp.

what machines would fit the bill for around £600 and do HX machines not need a pid due to the water being heated on demand?


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Does it have to be new? (HX does not need to be PID - you just need to learn it's heating routine and understand the cooling flush... simple stuff - honest)


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

Second hand off this forum would be perfect if anything comes up.

Heating routine? Have read a few bits about hx machines they sound simply and fool proof to pull a good shot


----------



## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

There was a bit of a glut of HiQ HX machines in the For Sale section in the lastmonth. with PID's, without, with extra portafilters, with rotary pumps. All I am sure great performers.

I 'put up' with a Gaggia Classic from 2003 until a month ago, and my younger daughter (19+ yrs) reckons we get better coffee from that than we buy in some well respected shops in York. I bought one of those machines from the glut, and I really really don't regret it, but my daughter tells me it is far more difficult to understand and use and takes longer to get the drink in the cup. When I said 'put up' above....well I think back on that machine and think the quality of its output is not 1/3 or 1/4 that of my new (2nd hand) machine, it is way closer than I think some would have you believe. I is just not as convenient - it forces you to do things in certain ways; eg once you have run up to steam temp you have a big flush to do to get the boiler down to pour the next coffee.

As for fool proof? Lets see what other member might say, I know one very qualified member will say that HX machines are only manufactured because people will pay for them, and that Double Boiler tech is the way to go. I never got a sink shot from the classic (but I am from Yorkshire) and likewise from the new machine. But I rarely make more than 3 drinks on the bounce.


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

Syenitic said:


> There was a bit of a glut of HiQ HX machines in the For Sale section in the lastmonth. with PID's, without, with extra portafilters, with rotary pumps. All I am sure great performers.
> 
> I 'put up' with a Gaggia Classic from 2003 until a month ago, and my younger daughter (19+ yrs) reckons we get better coffee from that than we buy in some well respected shops in York. I bought one of those machines from the glut, and I really really don't regret it, but my daughter tells me it is far more difficult to understand and use and takes longer to get the drink in the cup. When I said 'put up' above....well I think back on that machine and think the quality of its output is not 1/3 or 1/4 that of my new (2nd hand) machine, it is way closer than I think some would have you believe. I is just not as convenient - it forces you to do things in certain ways; eg once you have run up to steam temp you have a big flush to do to get the boiler down to pour the next coffee.
> 
> As for fool proof? Lets see what other member might say, I know one very qualified member will say that HX machines are only manufactured because people will pay for them, and that Double Boiler tech is the way to go. I never got a sink shot from the classic (but I am from Yorkshire) and likewise from the new machine. But I rarely make more than 3 drinks on the bounce.


what do you mean by bought one of those machines from the glut?

thank you for that as I get the impression that more money spent on a machine it will be a lot better but this isn't the case by the sounds of it.

I will only be making coffee (latte mocha ect) for myself and the odd hot choc froffy milk for the mrs I doubt iwill have to make more than 2 coffees in a row as we just don't have many true coffee lover frinds they drink the king of coffee nescafe lol


----------



## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

Bigal said:


> what do you mean by bought one of those machines from the glut?


There was an unusual number of HX machines for sale on the forum in a short space of time, and I bought one of them?


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

[FOOTNOTE][/FOOTNOTE]



Syenitic said:


> There was an unusual number of HX machines for sale on the forum in a short space of time, and I bought one of them?


sorry me being tired and not looking sorry I understand you now

what model did you purchase


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Syenitic said:


> There was a bit of a glut of HiQ HX machines in the For Sale section in the lastmonth. with PID's, without, with extra portafilters, with rotary pumps. All I am sure great performers.
> 
> I 'put up' with a Gaggia Classic from 2003 until a month ago, and my younger daughter (19+ yrs) reckons we get better coffee from that than we buy in some well respected shops in York. I bought one of those machines from the glut, and I really really don't regret it, but my daughter tells me it is far more difficult to understand and use and takes longer to get the drink in the cup. When I said 'put up' above....well I think back on that machine and think the quality of its output is not 1/3 or 1/4 that of my new (2nd hand) machine, it is way closer than I think some would have you believe. I is just not as convenient - it forces you to do things in certain ways; eg once you have run up to steam temp you have a big flush to do to get the boiler down to pour the next coffee.
> 
> As for fool proof? Lets see what other member might say, I know one very qualified member will say that HX machines are only manufactured because people will pay for them, and that Double Boiler tech is the way to go. I never got a sink shot from the classic (but I am from Yorkshire) and likewise from the new machine. But I rarely make more than 3 drinks on the bounce.


Wise advice to someone with a larger budget - but the OP has specified he has up to £600 to play with. Finding a dual boiler at that price will be a tall order even 2nd hand.

@Bigal - is the £600 budget for grinder and machine? What about the other gubbins? Tamper, scales, milk jugs etc?


----------



## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

I bought a rather nice Bezzera HX. Finding my feet but liking it.

If you still think HX is the way forward for you, did you see this one? Not sure of status as of now, but not aware of any recent movement http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?27146-FOR-SALE-Rocket-Cellini-V2-%A3800


----------



## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

Daren said:


> Wise advice to someone with a larger budget - but the OP has specified he has up to £600 to play with. Finding a dual boiler at that price will be a tall order even 2nd hand.
> 
> @Bigal - is the £600 budget for grinder and machine? What about the other gubbins? Tamper, scales, milk jugs etc?


Ah sorry yes, my mistake/not reading close enough


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

Daren said:


> Wise advice to someone with a larger budget - but the OP has specified he has up to £600 to play with. Finding a dual boiler at that price will be a tall order even 2nd hand.
> 
> @Bigal - is the £600 budget for grinder and machine? What about the other gubbins? Tamper, scales, milk jugs etc?


no grinder and other pieces are being sought separate to this budget


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Your set-up will only be as good as the grinder. If it was my money I'd spend it on used Mazzer (there is a bargain Major for sale in the sales thread at the moment) and a Gaggia classic. It should leave you some change for a coffee subscription. See how it goes with a set-up like this and see if the bug bites - if it does the Mazzer will see you through to your next Spro machine upgrade


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

agree with daren, the major for sale is a mint one and will outlive any upgrades on the machine front


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Here's the link for the Major.

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27797


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

Currently in process of getting a mignon m220 new for £120.

I believe this is s good grinder right? But maybe not as good as the mazzer linked above, thank you for the link if this falls through perhaps that is worth a look


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Bigal said:


> Currently in process of getting a mignon m220 new for £120.
> 
> I believe this is s good grinder right? But maybe not as good as the mazzer linked above, thank you for the link if this falls through perhaps that is worth a look


Where are you getting £120 Mignons from please? May interest others if this isn't just a one off.


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

jonc said:


> Where are you getting £120 Mignons from please? May interest others if this isn't just a one off.


Just a one off am afraid, if any more do emerge I will post on the forum asap


----------



## Bigal (Nov 13, 2015)

jonc said:


> Where are you getting £120 Mignons from please? May interest others if this isn't just a one off.


Just a one off am afraid, if any more do emerge I will post on the forum asap


----------

