# Questions for current Cormorant users



## Gogoyami

I'm new to the site and am seriously looking at the Cormorant roaster and would like to ask:

1. Do you feel there is a significant qualitative improvement of your gas roasted beans vs electricity based roasters?

2. Do you enjoy the roasting process as compared to other roasters you may have used previously?

3. What do you DISLIKE about the Cormorant and where do you perceive is there room for improvement?

4. Would you opt for painted or SS?

Thank you in advance for your input.


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## iroko

I think their are only two Cormorant owners on here as far as I know.

1. I went from the Gene Cafe to the Cormorant so a big improvement on control, but I also really liked my Gene.

2. I enjoy roasting on the cormorant, your a lot more involved with the roast than on the Gene, and much easier to hear 1st and 2nd cracks.

3. Nothing to dislike from me, I have the 2nd gen roaster. It has recently been updated again, see new website.

4. I opted for the SS, no paint to scratch or chip, although I'm sure the powder coating is very tough.

I also use the roaster as It came, I don't use Artisan, although I might in the future. I'm very happy with the roaster and you get good support from Johan.

Hope this helps.


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## Gogoyami

Thank you Iroko for your input. This is very helpful. The Cormorant is not cheap and there are some quality competitors, namely the new Behmor Jake, the Bullit, and the Huky.

The integrated design is very appealing, as well as its chaff management and gas roasting.

i placed this query on this forum as I had assumed that there would be more British roasters experienced with the Cormorant as Johan is based in the UK.
Thank you again and cheers.


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## Beeroclock

Howard

I think it may be more of the way you asked the questions. I noted that you've received a similar response to them on HB.

The Behmor Jake - isn't in production and no one knows when it's likely to appear.

The Bullet's current retail price is around $2800 dollars + import duties depending on where you buy it.

That leaves the Fortis and the Huky - both good machines by all accounts - but neither have a built in burner or as elegant an airflow solution.

Electric vs Gas really depends on one's individual circumstances, there are advantages and disadvantages to both.

There is a lot of info out there on all the machines mentioned. I've written a fair amount and posted videos on my Cormorant ownership.

If you do join the waiting list for a Cormorant and as far as I'm aware, it still doesn't cost anything to do so, you can join the Facebook group which has a ton of info available too.

cheers Phil


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## wan

between Cormorant (gas) and Dalian Amazon (Electric) , in roasting control, which is more control for beginner? like @iroko mentioned, Cormorant a lot improve on control and easy to hear 1st and 2nd crack.


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## iroko

I've never had the chance to use a Dalian so I'm not sure, but I think the Cormorant would be easier to use for a beginner. Maybe a Dalian owner will chip in with their view.


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## filthynines

wan said:


> between Cormorant (gas) and Dalian Amazon (Electric) , in roasting control, which is more control for beginner? like @iroko mentioned, Cormorant a lot improve on control and easy to hear 1st and 2nd crack.


 Without modification, the Dalian is heater on or heater off. You can set a thermostat temperature for both Exhaust Temperature and Bean Temperature, but otherwise it's either on or off. You can modify it with a dimmer switch, though.


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## wan

filthynines said:


> Without modification, the Dalian is heater on or heater off. You can set a thermostat temperature for both Exhaust Temperature and Bean Temperature, but otherwise it's either on or off. You can modify it with a dimmer switch, though.


 @filthynines Dalian still modification to control heating element? sorry, I'm not very clear.


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## filthynines

wan said:


> @filthynines Dalian still modification to control heating element? sorry, I'm not very clear.


 There is a switch for the heating element. However, you cannot control the heating element. If you want to control it then you must modify the Dalian.


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## wan

iroko said:


> I've never had the chance to use a Dalian so I'm not sure, but I think the Cormorant would be easier to use for a beginner. Maybe a Dalian owner will chip in with their view.


 @iroko with Cormorant you don't need any modifications to control heat and fan? they can run artisan software pnp?



filthynines said:


> There is a switch for the heating element. However, you cannot control the heating element. If you want to control it then you must modify the Dalian.


 @filthynines thank you for info.

btw, i am still learning in roasting process . At the moment I used Severin pop corn maker. just add thermo meter to read and to why popcorn maker have modify to control heat and fan. and same time saving my money to invest for Dalian or Cormorant 😁


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## iroko

@wan You don't need to do any mods on the cormorant to control heat or fan, both fully controllable as it comes. I use mine like this.

If you go to the new Cormorant website you can spec artisan as an option.

http://cormorantroasters.co.uk


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## wan

@iroko Thanks. Johan is moving house? I think his address somewhere in Oxford.


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## Beeroclock

wan said:


> @iroko Thanks. Johan is moving house? I think his address somewhere in Oxford.


 Johan moved to Cornwall some time ago.

cheers Phil


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## wan

Beeroclock said:


> Johan moved to Cornwall some time ago.
> 
> cheers Phil


 Thanks Phil. 
Have a reason go down to south 😅


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## Dan Dyse

Hello fellow Cormorants,

I am trying to build my own drum roaster and I am looking at all small batch roasters on the market: Huky, Cormorant, Biene, Bullet, Kaldi, ...

None of them seems perfect (nothing is perfect anyway), but almost every machine has some part or construction detail that make them unique. But almost every roaster has something that is annoying / not working as needed / needs to be adjusted. I am trying to adopt the clever things and avoid the hassle with my construction.

Since I don't have access to any of the machine IRL, I do alot of watching YT videos & reading forums.

One thing I don't quite understand is the airflow principles of Cormorant. I see there is a "Deffuser" that opens / closes direct fire to the drum. And a often called "flower" that opens / closes the cooling of the finished beans. Here is an image from the machine:










The two vents suck air from the left side through the chaff collector (not installed here) or from the beans when the "flower" is opened.

But how does the airflow through the drum work? I assume the drum is solid but has a bottom to let air through, right? Does anyone have pictures of the Cormorant without its hood?

Any help is appreciated.

Cheers, Dan


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## Beeroclock

The drum is solid and has a perforated rear rear end (as do most solid drum gas roasters). The flower valve control also links to a flap which allows for a split of air through the drum or through the flower/bean collector either partially or completely.

Cheers Phil


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## Rincewind

Beeroclock said:


> ...Electric vs Gas really depends on one's individual circumstances, *there are advantages and disadvantages to both*...


 Hi Phil, any chance you can expand on the undelined part.


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## Dan Dyse

Beeroclock said:


> The drum is solid and has a perforated rear rear end (as do most solid drum gas roasters). The flower valve control also links to a flap which allows for a split of air through the drum or through the flower/bean collector either partially or completely.


 Thanks Phil, can you say where the air is coming into the drum and where it is getting out?

From videos and photos I only see that the top is closed, the air underneath the drum is heated and the sucking fans are underneath too: so how's hot air going through the drum?


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## Beeroclock

Rumpelstiltskin said:


> Hi Phil, any chance you can expand on the undelined part.


 Gas

Easier to control and more responsive to heat change - (though I understand that the induction system in the Bullet is almost as quick)

Gas roasters tend to have thicker drum walls which carry more thermal heat - good from a consistency point of view.

Using propane indoors can/could be an issue.

Electric

Cleaner, more convenient.

Generally less control. Become expensive to run in larger roasters. Generally don't see them in roasters over 3kg - though I think that Giesen do a 6kg model.

cheers Phil


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## Beeroclock

Air goes through the rear of the drum as any normal gas roaster and out through the bean chute and via an internal channel (really very neat feature that makes for a very compact design) around the side of the drum and past the control flap through the chaff collector.

cheers Phil


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## Rincewind

Cheers Phil, @Beeroclock

i'm hovering over the buy button on the Cormorant....*but*.....i am also tempted to buy the Fracino Roastilino fluid bed roaster as this is the "only" electric one i've seen that is very good build quality (unlike Gene :classic_rolleyes: ), built in Blighty (another +) and can be fully controllable via Artisan software for repeatability; Frans has PID'd a Roastilino from what i've read (although i haven't picked his brains r.e. the mod/s)....the 250g limit suites me just fine and after spending quite a bit of time doing homework on FB roasters the only thing that comes across as "negative" (to some) is BODY....i believe this comes from the "drum" and as i'm a newbie at coffee (i may have gone a tad past that staus now) it'd probably be hard (i could be wrong) for me to tell the difference in the cup between a FB and a drum roasted coffee....the Roastalino has a smaller footprint (i think) and is not much different in price between it and the Cormorant.....the noise levels could be the deciding factor r.e. parting with my dosh. I await your thoughts.


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## Beeroclock

Rumpelstiltskin said:


> Cheers Phil, @Beeroclock
> 
> i'm hovering over the buy button on the Cormorant....*but*.....i am also tempted to buy the Fracino Roastilino fluid bed roaster as this is the "only" electric one i've seen that is very good build quality (unlike Gene :classic_rolleyes: ), built in Blighty (another +) and can be fully controllable via Artisan software for repeatability; Frans has PID'd a Roastilino from what i've read (although i haven't picked his brains r.e. the mod/s)....the 250g limit suites me just fine and after spending quite a bit of time doing homework on FB roasters the only thing that comes across as "negative" (to some) is BODY....i believe this comes from the "drum" and as i'm a newbie at coffee (i may have gone a tad past that staus now) it'd probably be hard (i could be wrong) for me to tell the difference in the cup between a FB and a drum roasted coffee....the Roastalino has a smaller footprint (i think) and is not much different in price between it and the Cormorant.....the noise levels could be the deciding factor r.e. parting with my dosh. I await your thoughts.


 Hi @Rumpelstiltskin

Here are my thoughts on this - at the risk of this thread going off on a tangent. I went through the very same dilemmas a few years ago. I suggest - though I'm guessing you might already have done - because it clearly looks like you've done your research, that you take a look at the HB Roasters forum - it has some really good discussions on this subject.

The theory is and Rob Hoos tried to prove this, its that given the same parameters ET and BT etc - one shouldn't be able to taste the roasting system. My feeling is that whilst one can get close certain methods and types of roasters do have their characteristics. There's a reason why the old Probats are held in such high regard.

The Loring goes some way to bridge the gap being mainly convection roasting - but still within a drum - albeit a static one. Increased body is definitely a character I would associate with a drum roaster. At the end of the day and I have said this before - roasting coffee is effectively a form of cooking - cast iron heavy pans perform differently to lightweight ones or even cooking by sous vide. There are no rights or wrongs.

In my own personal journey - I confess to being a bit one track in my coffee consumption - I love a flat white. However since taking this "hobby" to the next step, I forced myself to learn to brew with other methods - aero press, mokka pot, French press and clever dripper. I'm also developing my cupping skills. Hand on heart I don't have the most sophisticated palette, partly because I suffer from asthma and various allergies which result in my airways often being congested. But I'm learning and I know what I like so to speak - this is also the case with wine - particularly red which love too  I have a few friends that I "share" coffee with who give me great feedback and have a better "nose"m than me.

One of the reasons I sought out the the Kaffelogic, apart from as a good cupping/sampling roaster - was to experiment with fluid bed roasting in a controlled manner without having to burn through kgs of green. A good example of this is a Colombian Natural - I shared a bag of with RDC8. It's a Colombian Cauca from the Manos Juntas Micromill. Last night I did a quick filter/cupping roast on the Nano 7 using a profile contributed from the Kaffelogic community. I'm enjoying it this morning as a clever drip. It's sweet - almost cola like.

I don't know what timescale - you're looking at, but if you want a Cormorant - you should put your name down because there is a lengthy waiting list. Not sure if Johan requires a deposit or not - but if you changed your mind, I'm sure he's understand. I have no experience of the Fracino - so can't really comment. At some point I might be able to send you some samples of the same coffee - roasted on the Nano 7 and the GR1+

Hopefully you'll be able to hook up with Frans and get his perspective take on the Roastilino, noise may be a factor too.

Cheers Phil


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## Mattius2

@Rumpelstiltskin I took delivery of my Cormorant about 6 weeks ago. I waited c.7 months and my understanding is that this is now around 12 months so you won't be parting with your cash anytime soon 

There's no obligation or deposit so you can place an expression of interest and just get in the queue, but you will need something else meantime if you want to start roasting. It's a beautiful machine the craftsmanship is amazing and the artisan software provides a ton of data.

On gas v electric one thing I hadn't fully considered until delivery was the propane gas position, it is completely illegal to store the cylinders indoors so you will either need a cylinder of a size you can just hook up for roasting and then carry outside for storage (my solution for now even though I roast in my garage) or an outdoors to indoors pipe.


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## Dan Dyse

Mattius2 said:


> @Rumpelstiltskin I took delivery of my Cormorant about 6 weeks ago. I waited c.7 months and my understanding is that this is now around 12 months so you won't be parting with your cash anytime soon


 Current delivery date is October 2021, just got mail from Johan.


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## Rincewind

Cheers guys and many thanks for the info; i'm in no rush (gives me more time to refine my palate-hopefully) and i don't mind paying up-front. I still do like that Nano7 as the size/footprint is wife-friendly; i certainly don't have space for a GR1+ (not that i wouldn't say no to one). As said i've spent a considerable amount of time reading HB & other fora/watching (even the dodgy-brown-envelope-videos) and i don't rush into anything where possible; the idea (with anything i buy) is to avoid the "shite/garbage" and anything the "sheep" drool over...mostly i hit the nail on the head 1st time; very seldom do i end up with a pup/inferior product. The info is thin on the ground r.e. FB Roastilino so i will quiz Frans as i do like the idea of full controllability (via Artisan). One thing i did learn from this post is that gas canisters have to be legally stored outside (i didn't know that).


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## Rob1

wan said:


> @filthynines Dalian still modification to control heating element? sorry, I'm not very clear.


 You can modify it for artisan control with phidgets and an appropriately rated SSR.

You'll be making adjustments ahead of time whether it's gas or electric, as far as I'm aware anyway. With electric you'll need to take into account heat in the elements after you turn them off e.g. You can provide the beans with appropriate momentum early in the roast and switch the element off before first crack (after one roast you'll know when to expect it) to allow the beans to coast through first with a declining ROR.



Rumpelstiltskin said:


> ...is very good build quality (unlike Gene :classic_rolleyes: ),


 The Gene build quality is very good. Aside from some very early ones with faulty boards I don't think I've ever seen a broken one despite some pretty bad abuse (e.g. lack of cleaning + using the machine through error until it can't heat up at all  ). Mine has done about 100kg and is going strong. Just because it's plastic doesn't mean it's not built properly.


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## HomeRoastery

Heya @Rob1, interesting read on this thread - quick Q for you - would you buy Gene vs. others for a little sample roaster? There's so many options out there at the moment, it's quite fascinating actually. Looks like I'm on a hunt for a new sample roaster, as mine just died this morning. Sob. TYVMIA


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## Rob1

HomeRoastery said:


> Heya @Rob1, interesting read on this thread - quick Q for you - would you buy Gene vs. others for a little sample roaster? There's so many options out there at the moment, it's quite fascinating actually. Looks like I'm on a hunt for a new sample roaster, as mine just died this morning. Sob. TYVMIA


 No. I don't think the gene is well suited as a sample roaster for a roastery, not without modification anyway and maybe not even then. I'm thinking of doing the above mods on mine to replace the electronics but it's about the will to do it right now when I've got plenty of other things I need to be doing. In terms of "sample roasting" it might be passable but if you want to try different profiles it's very difficult. I roasted 200g of a coffee I cupped in December and it is recognisable so it's certainly capable of very basic sample roasting in terms of it will roast everything to the same basic profile easily enough, but it is prone to burning the beans.

Basically, for a home roaster who finds one profile that works for the machine and bean and wants to reproduce it it's fine (assuming their voltage is somewhat stable), but for more advanced use and trying multiple profiles it is very flawed.

I would be looking at the Sandbox I think for something that offers more control even if it doesn't have a bean mass probe it offers more control and more accurate temperature feedback than the gene. Identifying flaws by taste and altering the profile isn't going to be too painful with a 100g batch size and it has a good form factor with external cooling. Other than that I'd be looking at more expensive professional options but would not be looking at the air roasters I don't think.


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## HomeRoastery

Thanks @Rob1, I agree with you, probably not suited for what I'm after. Sigh. Why oh why it had to happen NOW??

Roest is like 4-5k (😶) and Probat have their own issues. Right now reading some nice reviews on Ikawa - I thought they were mega expensive too but much better priced that Roest!!...  But still. I will check out Sandbox - never heard of them. Thanks v much. Someone else suggested them in another thread I started today, so defo worth a peek.


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## Rob1

HomeRoastery said:


> Thanks @Rob1, I agree with you, probably not suited for what I'm after. Sigh. Why oh why it had to happen NOW??
> 
> Roest is like 4-5k (😶) and Probat have their own issues. Right now reading some nice reviews on Ikawa - I thought they were mega expensive too but much better priced that Roest!!...  But still. I will check out Sandbox - never heard of them. Thanks v much. Someone else suggested them in another thread I started today, so defo worth a peek.


 I think Olam use an Ikawa. Capable air roaster but there will be differences when you roast in a drum. Good for assessing greens.


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## Beeroclock

If you're looking for a "proper" sample roaster have a look at this:

https://fb.watch/3c3RvqAhr7/

I've got one at the moment and am really enjoying it. One of the unique features it has is the ability to contour the fan profile completely independently to the heat - I don't even think the Ikawa does this. The ability to control the roast from the unit itself - without having to log onto an app. They have already sold 500 hundred or so units - but are in the process of a global relaunch on Kickstarter - and will be bringing some interesting upgrades/modifications.

They have a community forum - and I even had a 1.5 hr zoom chat with Wayne Burrows (person who developed some of the core profiles) to discuss some of the finer details of the profiling software in more depth, not sure this is going to happen with the plethora of other offerings coming out of Taiwan at the moment.

I haven't used the sandbox - but for me it doesn't fit into the sample roaster category, too much a faff - oven gloves etc.. No actual end bean temp??

Otherwise - you're looking at an Ikawa - but even second hand they're over £2k or the home unit - which has it's controls/software severely restricted.

Cheers Phil


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## Rob1

@Beeroclock how do you get around the difference between air and drum roasters when you go from sample roasting to roasting a bigger batch in the drum? Or do you not see significant differences between the two different methods? Or is it that you just use the sample roaster as a separate thing for cupping and then use the drum roaster and design profiles on that with a few different batches?


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## Beeroclock

No there is definitely a difference - but I'm not looking to profile but to sample. So I recently received 200g of a Uganda Ibanda natural from Rwenzori Coffee.

I roasted 2 batches - 1 with a light filter profile and the other with a more medium profile with longer development. This gives me a good sense of how versatile a bean might be or even if I think it's worth dropping 2-300 quid on a bag.

cheers Phil


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## HomeRoastery

Beeroclock said:


> This gives me a good sense of how versatile a bean might be or even if I think it's worth dropping 2-300 quid on a bag.


 Wise words.

Where are you getting your greens from, if I may ask?


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## HomeRoastery

Beeroclock said:


> If you're looking for a "proper" sample roaster have a look at this:
> 
> https://fb.watch/3c3RvqAhr7/
> 
> I've got one at the moment and am really enjoying it. One of the unique features it has is the ability to contour the fan profile completely independently to the heat - I don't even think the Ikawa does this. The ability to control the roast from the unit itself - without having to log onto an app. They have already sold 500 hundred or so units - but are in the process of a global relaunch on Kickstarter - and will be bringing some interesting upgrades/modifications.
> 
> They have a community forum - and I even had a 1.5 hr zoom chat with Wayne Burrows (person who developed some of the core profiles) to discuss some of the finer details of the profiling software in more depth, not sure this is going to happen with the plethora of other offerings coming out of Taiwan at the moment.
> 
> I haven't used the sandbox - but for me it doesn't fit into the sample roaster category, too much a faff - oven gloves etc.. No actual end bean temp??
> 
> Otherwise - you're looking at an Ikawa - but even second hand they're over £2k or the home unit - which has it's controls/software severely restricted.
> 
> Cheers Phil


 It does ring a bell ... I'll have a look, thanks a bunch.

If you had an option to go for Roest, Ikawa, Kaffelogic or dare I add Probat, which one you'd go for?


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