# Ethical or not - A discussion



## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

The Chaps thread on what we would be willing to shell out on a one off monster raffle got me thinking!

I started this thread so as not to pollute that one........

Anyway my thoughts:

The Chap arranges various raffles (I think) along the lines of:

a) Negotiate a "decent" price for something

b) Flog enough tickets to get pretty close to normal retail price

c) Winner gets prize worth "normal retail" for a few quid

d) Forum gets donation of "normal retail" less "decent price"

e) Supplier gets agreed price

f) The "losers" get a bit of fun and the warm feeling of "donating" a few quid to the forum

g) The Chap gets a lot of work, hassle etc and... well apart from our gratitude thats it (I assume he gets some other warm feeling/satisfaction out of his contribution but anyway......)

In the past I have entered some of these raffles on the basis of:

a) I am unlikely to win - but I get bit of fun and a warm feeling "donating"......

b) If I win I get the nice shiny prize.....

But (and after the meandering background this is the point of my post)....

*What if the winner doesn't want the prize?*

Would it be deemed acceptable by other forum members to flog it?

and if so.....

a) How much for?

b) Where?

How much could range from:

As much as possible even up to full retail.....

75% of retail

50% of retail

Where could range from:

(Only) In the Sale threads on the forum...

eBay...

etc etc....

If "on the forum" it might be argued "keeping it in the family".... particularly at a "cheap" price vs retail....

or it might be argued "robbing from a member who really wanted it", "profiteering from others work" etc etc

Obviously "legally" once you have won it - it's yours to do with what you like!

Just interested in peoples thoughts/a discussion.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If they win it its theirs to do as they wish with ....end of

Personal opinion only ethics doesn't come into , selling an item like that for retail price might make a huge difference to someones life more than a coffee machine would.....i wouldn't want to make anyone feel guilty about having to make that decision

We have had raffle winners sell stuff before I'm sure


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Previous raffles I'd have sold the item if I won. It's yours, if you sell it on the forum for a fair price someone gets the item, you get the cash, everyone's happy


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> If they win it its theirs to do as they wish with ....end of


Sorry I disagree - That isn't "end of".

It is (I agree) legally the position but the legality isn't at issue! It is "how people feel".

For example - Costabucks not paying any UK Corporation Tax is perfectly legal.

By the rules they are not making any profit in the UK, because (among other things) they perfectly legally pay another legal entity the exact amount of money that might be considered (taxable) profit - thus reducing their CorpTax liability to Zero.

This is perfectly legal - but not "morally acceptable" to many people (granted many of those people don't actually understand what they are doing is perfectly legal - but that is another discussion)


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Yeah totally fine to sell it on, preferably on here, but is yours to do what you like with it. The market will determine what a fair price is.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Yea, I sold the Beautiful Blue Mignon I won on the raffles to the forum. If I won something I didn't want I would likely sell it as new with a good discount over purchasing from a shop. There is nothing morally wrong with that I dont think.,


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Drewster said:


> Sorry I disagree - That isn't "end of".
> 
> It is (I agree) legally the position but the legality isn't at issue! It is "how people feel".
> 
> ...


We disagree but comparing this to starbucks is nonsense .


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

People have sold on raffle winnings before now, it's not frowned upon and they are usually for less than someone could buy them for, but ultimately the winner owns it and is free to do what they will.

Thanks for the kind words, I really enjoy running these as they are a lot of fun and have many happy endings as well as some disappointments, will love a happy ending.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Drewster said:


> Sorry I disagree - That isn't "end of".
> 
> It is (I agree) legally the position but the legality isn't at issue! It is "how people feel".
> 
> ...


Maybe is not the end of the discussion to the moral quandary.

However, regardless if 99% of the forum thought it was morally unacceptable, it would only take the seller and buyer to be in the remaining 1% for it not to matter.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Totally fine to sell it on. Entirely up to the individual of what they do. I know what my moral compass would steer me towards.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

If I win a 5k machine I would be stupid not to sell it on... but winning the machine would likely make me suddenly very stupid(er)


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

With something of this value, if I was entering I would want to win it and keep it.

If it was a low value item and I didnt need it I would offer it up to the forum at a fair price and donate the funds to the forum

If it was a reasonable value item that I didnt want, I would offer it to the forum and pocket most of the cash with a forum donation


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Here we go! If you enter a raffle and win a prize, it has bugger all to do with anybody else what you do with it. If you want to debate nonsensical topics Drewster, here is not the place for it. If it causes you a problem, then do not buy a ticket. I am not being confrontational here but realistic. We are all entitled to our own opinions since it is a public forum, but quite why you want tot worry what others might think of your actions if you won is beyond me!


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

the reality is more likely that finding someone who has a spare £5000 is probably slim, so they would probably use it and show it off to everyman and his dog. I would not judge any person negatively if they wanted to unload a very expensive prize, I think Drewster may be digging a little too deep (no offence Drewster) with comments about Tax etc.

Surely all the raffles are to encourage members to stay active and help Glenn with the site running costs.

I may be wrong and out of order so apologise in advance if anyone is offended.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> Here we go! If you enter a raffle and win a prize, it has bugger all to do with anybody else what you do with it. If you want to debate nonsensical topics Drewster, here is not the place for it. If it causes you a problem, then do not buy a ticket. I am not being confrontational here but realistic. We are all entitled to our own opinions since it is a public forum, but quite why you want tot worry what others might think of your actions if you won is beyond me!


Just read your comments after posting mine dfk41

I might be slightly more diplomatic than you but same sentiment


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

I can't work out any moral problem with selling it on. There's no entry requirement that the winner should want to use or keep the physical prize. We'd struggle for numbers if that were so.

If I goto the bookies and put £8 on a 50/1 shot might I be morally expected to give a fiver to everyone in the shop who bet on one of the losing horses?

Remember a raffle is ultimately betting albeit in a nicer and more limited format.

I don't think it would be terribly attractive to say you must keep the prize or make a total or partial donation of it or it's value back to the forum.

What would you like to be the situation if it's not obvious to your mind that a prize is an unfettered prize?

I also don't see how this question is constructive or helpful or is likely to make organisers or winners feel good


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

CamV6 said:


> I can't work out any moral problem with selling it on. There's no entry requirement that the winner should want to use or keep the physical prize. We'd struggle for numbers if that were so.
> 
> If I goto the bookies and put £8 on a 50/1 shot might I be morally expected to give a fiver to everyone in the shop who bet on one of the losing horses?
> 
> ...


+1


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

I think as others have said, if you win something your not gonna use much or need, then selling it on here for a decent price, giving another member a bargain, would be quite fair as far as I see it.


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

I'm someone who bought an unwanted raffle prize and the reality is that if someone is going to sell something on then firstly it's their choice as they own it, but also the price they ask for it will most likely be lower than normal as they just want the money. Therefore it's win-win for both the person selling and the person buying in my view


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

I don't think there's any moral aspect to this. It's certainly not something Immanuel Kant would have lost any sleep over.

JP


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

There is something so terribly British about feeling guilty if you win something. It's almost like it focuses all of our insecurities and feelings of low self-worth.

So much better to earn it through hard toil.

or even better, inherit it









Keep it, sell it, set fire to it. Nobody's business.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

jjprestidge said:


> I don't think there's any moral aspect to this. It's certainly not something Immanuel Kant would have lost any sleep over.
> 
> JP


Never thought I'd see a reference to Kant on the forum. Nice one JP.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Quite a few have benefitted from the sell on of prizes as well as the winner themselves who have used the money to maybe get an even better machine


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Never thought I'd see a reference to Kant on the forum. Nice one JP.


Wasn't he the Dude from Play Away? Your reference surely must relate to him appearing in Brick A Brack as the fella who flocked all kinds of tat.

Did he win all that trash in a raffle?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Never thought I'd see a reference to Kant on the forum. Nice one JP.


Brian Cant?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Philistine.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Philistine.


I dont think you are fully aware of the work of Cant , philistine he was not....


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Quite happy to be blissfully unaware of the other Cant.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Kant featured in a Monty Python song.....in the famous Bruce sketch!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Jeremy Irons was in Play Away too, he's high brow and has also been referred to as one of those I'm sure.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

What a bunch of Kants!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Was waiting for that.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Can we move on to Hegel now??


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Brian Cant?


I'm pretty sure he can


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

I could argue that someone who buys a raffle ticket for something he knows he will sell on if he wins is even more charitable than someone who buys a ticket for something they want to win and keep.

He is effectively making a bet where he is taking significantly worse odds than he might get in other forms of gambling so that he is able to help contribute to the forum. And that's putting aside the hassles of packing/selling etc. of the item he didn't want in the first place.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

NJD1977 said:


> I could argue that someone who buys a raffle ticket for something he knows he will sell on if he wins is even more charitable than someone who buys a ticket for something they want to win and keep.
> 
> He is effectively making a bet where he is taking significantly worse odds than he might get in other forms of gambling so that he is able to help contribute to the forum. And that's putting aside the hassles of packing/selling etc. of the item he didn't want in the first place.


But it is no different to betting £x on being able to make £xx selling it, I dont think any extra charitable intentions come into play.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Dylan said:


> But it is no different to betting £x on being able to make £xx selling it, I dont think any extra charitable intentions come into play.


It is different because if someone wanted to have a gamble with a bit of money then there are far more profitable (expected value wise) and less hassle options than a cfuk raffle. So by opting for the raffle they are being charitable towards the forum by foresaking better expected value options in favour of helping the forum.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Never thought I'd see a reference to Kant on the forum. Nice one JP.


I never pass up the opportunity to be pretentious. On that note, have I ever mentioned that I've read all of À la Recherche du Temps Perdu?

JP


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Which volume did you find most stimulating?


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## PWW (Nov 13, 2014)

I think if the winner wishes to sell on then what's the harm.

Will make selling the tickets easier in the first place especially if people don't have the space for a bigger machine but like a bit of a flutter with some reasonable odds at winning.

Personally if it was an upgrade to my setup I would keep the new machine and sell my current one therefore getting more cash back than the raffle ticket cost.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

NJD1977 said:


> It is different because if someone wanted to have a gamble with a bit of money then there are far more profitable (expected value wise) and less hassle options than a cfuk raffle. So by opting for the raffle they are being charitable towards the forum by foresaking better expected value options in favour of helping the forum.


I dont know all that much about gambling, or what the odds usually are. But would a gamble which was a 1 in 100 chance, but but mean you would get a 1000% return on your bet not be a good bet in comparison to other 'methods'?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> What a bunch of Kants!


That's the Cockney version



The Systemic Kid said:


> Can we move on to Hegel now??


Phenomenology is a step too far for my puny brain


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Which volume did you find most stimulating?


Finding Time Again (the last one) as it meant my feat of endurance was nearly over.

JP


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## cracker666 (Jan 17, 2015)

I aint got a problem if MrO won a 5k coffee machine and flogged it to me for £5.00 plus an espresso.

Seriously though, once won it becomes yours, you can use it, smash it up or sell it.

Makes little sense to drag up ill feeling to a positive site.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Dylan said:


> I dont know all that much about gambling, or what the odds usually are. But would a gamble which was a 1 in 100 chance, but but mean you would get a 1000% return on your bet not be a good bet in comparison to other 'methods'?


The easy way to look at it is:

Down the bookies they might give you 95 to 1 odds on something happening. They'll give you £95 profit for every £1 you invest. But the bookie knows the real likelihood is that the event will happen 1 in 100 times. So he makes a small 5/95 edge on you.

In a raffle let's say they sell 100 £1 tickets to win an £80 object. Now you're only getting 80 to 1 on your money for an event that only happens statistically 1 in 100 times. So the raffle makes a much larger 20/80 edge on you.

In addition to realise your winnings you don't just go and collect cash down the bookies, you have to advertise, sell, package and post your item to turn it into cash.


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

cracker666 said:


> I aint got a problem if MrO won a 5k coffee machine and made me an expresso and flogged it to me for £5.00 .


Consider it done... If I win.

BTW it's espresso


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Can we move on to Hegel now??












Got this up next once I'm done with my current book. Be lucky to make it 50 pages in I reckon


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> That's the Cockney version
> 
> Phenomenology is a step too far for my puny brain


That's a bit subjective


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## drude (Apr 22, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Can we move on to Hegel now??


Apparently Hegel was a big fan of coffee. The Rumford coffee percolator was his preferred method...


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> That's a bit subjective


This is some next level stuff


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Bit like coffee


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

I just re read the original post and in light of the views expressed in the 'discussion' I can find no support at all for your suggestion that selling on the forum

"might be argued "robbing from a member who really wanted it", "profiteering from others work" etc etc"

So I have to form the opinion that only you might potentially see it that way. Why would that be? How could anyone possibly have been robbed when we all pay the same and have an equal chance of being the lucky one? Robbed ? Robbed!!? I'm actually a bit annoyed by that TBH

You asked everyone else to discuss but you aren't actually doing any discussing.

I have asked before and will ask again in the hope of a direct response to the question what do you think a winner should do with their prize if they decide or even knew in advance they didn't want to keep it, please?

I'd also like to ask what you hoped the discussion would lead to or result in? I'm discounting sour grapes or plain old fashioned stirring as motives so as not to be unkind but I can't otherwise see the true intention of the desire to debate the matter. Might you assist at all?


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

I don't think Drewster was expressing those sentiments as his own. Merely trying to cover the possible reactions to such an event as an example to stimulate discussion.

One discussion later...

...doesn't look like anyone would be bothered what the winner does with it.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

I have to join the "what I do with MY stuff has naff all to do with anyone else" side of the argument. I do however understand where Drewster is coming from.

Often there are unwritten rules that are considered to be the "right way" or "good form", I even posted early on in my membership in an attempt to ascertain if there were such rules here pertaining to ebay and the like. The thought of members not bidding against each other seemed to generate mixed results in the replies. Yes I understand where Drewster is coming from and now, 52 replies and counting later, I think it fair to say that there is consensus..... pretty much.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

NJD1977 said:


> It is different because if someone wanted to have a gamble with a bit of money then there are far more profitable (expected value wise) and less hassle options than a cfuk raffle. So by opting for the raffle they are being charitable towards the forum by foresaking better expected value options in favour of helping the forum.


I doubt you will many better value odds than the raffles on here.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> I doubt you will many better value odds than the raffles on here.


And that's part of my point and why I'm a bit miffed on further reflection. it's a bit of fun, a small punt for a potential big return, provided by generous discounts from suppliers obtained via good contacts, and a fair bit of effort by the organisers.

I personally couldn't give a monkeys about winning or not. I view it as an indirect donation to the forum I am glad to make and if I'm uber lucky I might get a nice surprise. After all many of us give direct donations and there no potential prize there.

For me the mere posing if the question detracts from the entire spirit with which the raffles are organised and entered into


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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

Have you noticed than drewster had not posted on this for 3 pages. He is probably having a Right laugh!


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

I hope so!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

NickdeBug said:


> One discussion later...
> 
> ...doesn't look like anyone would be bothered what the winner does with it.


As long as it didn't break the laws of the land or the laws of nature.

It's down to the individual.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Nod said:


> Have you noticed than drewster had not posted on this for 3 pages. He is probably having a Right laugh!


I don't think we've debated Brian Cant enough. What would Derek Griffiths do?


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

NickdeBug said:


> I don't think Drewster was expressing those sentiments as his own. Merely trying to cover the possible reactions to such an event as an example to stimulate discussion.
> 
> One discussion later...
> 
> ...doesn't look like anyone would be bothered what the winner does with it.


I will address this one first.

Thank you Nick for actually reading what I wrote and not leaping to any assumption about what my opinion might be.

I think generally speaking I concur with your summation - the contributors to this thread seem to think "If you win it's up to you what you do with it".

I would suggest that there was a gentle undertone of "If you did sell it on it would be nice to sell it 'back' to a forum member - a win win!".


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> I doubt you will many better value odds than the raffles on here.


Well its clearly not about the odds or profitability of the raffles for the punters on here, its about the community spirit and making a bit of money to keep the forum going etc and you do a great job of that and your efforts are very much appreciated.............

However, (please don't take this the wrong way), a raffle that offers better value odds than typical high street gambling methods is a failure in raffle terms. The whole point of a raffle is to make profit for a cause, and to make money necessarily involves other people donating(losing) money at a decent rate. That can be the person contributing the prize or the ticket buyers or a combination of both.

In the case of raffles on here, I'm more than happy to make a "bad bet" in order to help fund this great community, knowing that there's a bit of fun in it and an outside chance of scoring a nice bit of kit for the collection.

Are these good odds raffles? (rather than good odds versus other gambling methods) Yeah! Absolutely! They're great value raffles, probably a little too good value tbh for raffles.

Anyways, I'm veering way off topic from my original premise that someone who enters a raffle on here for something they know they won't want to keep if they win, is even more charitable and should not be discouraged. 

Thanks for the raffle efforts and long may they continue.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

CamV6 said:


> I just re read the original post and in light of the views expressed in the 'discussion' I can find no support at all for your suggestion that selling on the forum
> 
> "might be argued "robbing from a member who really wanted it", "profiteering from others work" etc etc"
> 
> ...


I will now address this one and more generally the sentiment off several previous (and subsequent) posts.

1) I think Nick has summed up the point about the "suggestion" you seem to take offence at - I was expressing what I thought to be "both sides of the coin" as the nominal parameters of discussion.

2) After my initial post I did post a couple of more times "re-open" the discussion that I felt was being "closed down" by some of the posts that implied

"I am right - thats it!". Actually thinking about it they more than implied "close down"! the phrase "end of" explicitly states that there is no room for other opinions or discussion.

I honestly believe that there is room for discussion on this topic - and equally honestly didn't think the discussion was so radical or outrageous that it would cause any offence. (As an aside if it has caused offence I apologise).

The reason I haven't contributed more since those early posts is that I have been out... yep sorry about that as well I do have a life outside the forum (although that apology is rather tongue in cheek).

In answer to your two questions:

1 & 2 I think) I think the winner should do what ever they want with the prize.

To elaborate - I previously said



> In the past I have entered some of these raffles on the basis of:
> 
> a) I am unlikely to win - but I get bit of fun and a warm feeling "donating"......
> 
> b) If I win I get the nice shiny prize.....


The "biggest" raffle that I entered was for a Brewtus I think..... and (If I won that) that would have been a bit of an internal debate!

Because a Brewtus was well out of my aspirations at the time - I really couldn't see myself using a £1k+ machine...

I am pretty certain I would have sold it and bought a lower tier machine upgrade and have some profit (my machine at the time was a £10 gaggia).

Since then my aspirations have changed, I now have a Piccino and the Brewtus isn't quite such a leap (I think I would probably still sell the Brewtus but it isn't beyond my imagination that I might keep it).

It was the possibility of the "mega machine" that made me think....

There is no way I can envisage me ever having a £5K machine... ever... I just can't see it...

So I asked myself - "Would I enter this raffle? If I won what would I do with it? I could sell it and make a shed load of money.... but................"

and it was really the "but" that triggered my thoughts and the thread...

I knew that if I won I would not keep the machine....

I weighed up the £20, £30, upto £50 options and how much would I pay to win a machine I knew I wouldn't keep.

And I thought...

If I won I could sell it back on the forum at a discount - still make a decent profit and someone else could get a mega machine that they did want at a very good price...

but I then thought isn't that a bit daft - you could flog it on eBay and make a small fortune...

and I wondered "What do others think.................." - So I asked!

I am actually a little surprised at:

a) The Assumptions about my view. (I thought I was quite clear that I wasn't giving my opinion)

b) The hostility - based apparently on the false assumption above.

c) The quite marked lack of discussion - Several early posters (some of whom really surprised me) seemed to think that "My opinion is right and nobody else is permitted an opinion"

I normally find this forum a friendly place and tbh I am a little pissed off at some of the hostility I have perceived (towards me, my motives etc) on this thread - but I am a big lad and I'll get over it.

I have re-read my comments a few times and I don't see where the misunderstanding comes from but am savvy enough to know that once the misunderstanding is there it can be self perpetuating. And I realise that the written form is very easily open to misinterpretation.

Anyway - I have rambled enough.

Once again apologies for any offence I may have caused.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I thought when you first posted that this would cause a big debate, in all the raffles that have been run people have kept the item or moved it on, most times it has been moved on it has been for a lower price so that a win win situation. That has come about by the ethos and community here on the forum. If I am honest, should I be fortunate enough to win this I would keep it and you would see my used GS3 up for sale. If I didn't have a premium machine I would offer it up for less on here and by an l1, plus have a fab holiday, win win win. People get heated over lots of things on here, don't take it personal, it was a valid question and I hope you have some kind of answer,


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## Steve7 (Dec 19, 2014)

Anyone who challenges a majority gets hostility.

You need a challenge to confirm the majority are right and aren't missing something.

If if they are, the challenege was of value. If they aren't the challenge helps show the staus quo is correct and has been of value to prove that.

Blah. Blah. Although if you are a big lad, you don't need my help.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Hmm, ok well I'm prepared to accept that I for one misunderstood the nature/purpose/point you were seeking to convey based on what you say above.


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## Beanaholic (Feb 2, 2015)

Just to play the devil's advocate...

if if the point of the raffle is to raise funds for the forum and redistribute kit in a fair way the it is 'just a bit of fun'. if the likely intention of the winner is convert it to cash as quickly as possible, you could argue that (if a pattern emerged) it was barely disguised and unlicensed betting. I'm not saying that this is right, but I do think that Drewster is right to raise the point for debate.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Don't you just love how some innocent treads on this Forum can escalate into major debates and sometimes arguments/







. Do you think caffeine can make people cranky?


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

CamV6 said:


> Hmm, ok well I'm prepared to accept that I for one misunderstood the nature/purpose/point you were seeking to convey based on what you say above.


As I know how easy it is to misinterpret what is typed I will say now that I am reading that as a sincere and genuine acceptance that wrong end of sticks were grasped, misunderstandings happened and wrong assumptions were made but that it is now water under the bridge and we can move on with no ill feeling.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Beanaholic said:


> Just to play the devil's advocate...
> 
> if if the point of the raffle is to raise funds for the forum and redistribute kit in a fair way the it is 'just a bit of fun'. if the likely intention of the winner is convert it to cash as quickly as possible, you could argue that (if a pattern emerged) it was barely disguised and unlicensed betting. I'm not saying that this is right, but I do think that Drewster is right to raise the point for debate.


God this is getting old, I have noticed that quite a few of your posts have been quite pointed please answer the questions that were asked of you in other threads and if you really thing that this is unlicensed betting then just don't get involved, it takes a lot to sod me off but here I am well and truly.


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## Sean (Jun 20, 2014)

I just received a phone call on my landline, thought it was PPI at first, but as she went on she asked if I'd participated in any online raffles in the last three years that were not my fault. She told me that they are illegal and I could claim my money back plus compensation. And if I don't win, I don't pay a penny.


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