# barista touch - temperature of espresso is less then lukewarm? is it faulty?



## wakkaday

i have had other semi automatic/automatic machines mainly delonghi and making an espresso they were at least warm (ish)

on a barista touch i have, when making an espresso it seems to be almost cold and mildly warm. is this normal?

my cups are not pre-heated/warm water or anything/ but i didn't have to do this with the delognhi machine, so im a bit confused.

the brew temperature in the settings is set to high


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## HRC99

Wakkaday

This cropped up in the thread below.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?47372-Sage-Barista-Touch-Newbie-Q-s/page2

I've had the same issue as you. I have developed a little routine which involves:

Boiling kettle

Filling cup with hot water

Filling another cup with hot water and heating the portafilter in it

Running a couple of shots through with no portafilter in

After that, I grind, tamp and pull my shot.

I have got used to this little routine but it still bothers me that this is hardly the convenience factor that I paid for in buying the BT.

Having said that, I am drinking miles better coffee than I have done before.


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## Mrboots2u

The above ritual seems unnecessary for a properly functioning machine

But without understanding the actual group temp , it could just be a subjective judgement that the espresso is not hot enough.

For sure pre heat your cups .

to HRC99 , either you have an asbestos mouth or your machine is not functioning correctly.


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## H4WKS

I had a very similar problem with the BT I purchased just before Christmas. Whatever I tried and I believe me I did persevere, the shots produced were warm at the very best and certainly not hot. I had some fairly poor customer service support from Sage and in the end returned the machine to Amazon (who were very helpful).

I now have the Barista Express which is producing shots at a much better temperature and despite my inability to get the grind and dosing dialled in quite yet I'm definitely enjoying the process.


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## RazorliteX

If you touch the group head is it warm/hot or cold?

Normally takes around 5-10mins (though prefer longer) to get the group head to a decent temperature though admittedly I am not using the same machine as you.

If you are only waiting enough time for the water to get to the right temperature and the group head is stone cold/luke warm it is going to cool the water as soon as it hits the group head/portafilter.


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## ajohn

RazorliteX said:


> If you touch the group head is it warm/hot or cold?
> 
> Normally takes around 5-10mins (though prefer longer) to get the group head to a decent temperature though admittedly I am not using the same machine as you.
> 
> If you are only waiting enough time for the water to get to the right temperature and the group head is stone cold/luke warm it is going to cool the water as soon as it hits the group head/portafilter.


Grouphead is plastic - the only part that gets hot is behind the shower screen which is metal but has no contact with the portafilter. Some one checked this in the thread that was mentioned

Rather than boiling kettles etc try fitting an empty single shot pressurised basker and running a shot through that into the mug that is going to be used. It should kill both birds with one shot.

Sage I think suggest using the hot water outlet to preheat things - steam could be used as well.

On the other hand 2 reports on the Touch and never mentioned on the straight BE maybe there is some sort of problem. Frankly I would not buy the Touch anyway but that's besides the point.

John

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## ashcroc

There have been a couple of threads on Barista Touch low temp recently. IIrc the solution both times was to return the machine & get something else.

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## Mrboots2u

ashcroc said:


> There have been a couple of threads on Barista Touch low temp recently. IIrc the solution both times was to return the machine & get something else.
> 
> Laissez les bons temps rouler


I'm not sure I saw a qualified measuring of temp on either of em, other than not hot enoughh


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## ashcroc

Mrboots2u said:


> I'm not sure I saw a qualified measuring of temp on either of em, other than not hot enoughh


Me either but at least one of them had an engineer out to look at it.

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## ajohn

ashcroc said:


> Me either but at least one of them had an engineer out to look at it.
> 
> Laissez les bons temps rouler


If a shot through an empty dual wall single shot basket doesn't get the portafilter way too hot to touch something is wrong. Flow rates etc when that is done are roughly right. When some ones new to a machine has grinds in - pass.

John

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## Twin

Hi,

I joined this forum today, as I found it quite good. From Norway, but should be ok?









I read with interest that several had temp issues with their Barista Touch, so have I. Bought mine late December, returning my BT today to trade in to another Sage, either the Express, Dual Boiler or an Oracle.

I'm a bit dissapointed, because the BT has a lot going for it, with the automation you can ease when you want, and do a lot manually - I prefer to have both options. I would want more manual override than the Touch allowed, surprisingly, the Express offer more manual override with the buttons... which for me is somewhat odd, considering the touch screen, which I think also hold programming an controlling various valves and parameters?..

So, when the machine, doesn't make warm coffee, either long black or espresso, the only choice is to return it.

As I have read several other complaining about the same, I think Sage (or Breville) need to alter this potentially very nice espresso/coffee maker. I would happily buy a revised version.


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## Twin

To add: On the Barista touch I mesured 55° Celsius at the lowest with a simple thermometer. Sometimes I could hold my hand under the shower head while the water flowed, not very hot. Although, it sometimes was burning hot, so I had to pull my hand away immediately. No other explanation than either faulty Termojet, or temperature sensoring.

We bought the BE to my girlfriend after my BT, due to a very good price reduction at a local dealer. And it is working perfect, a very nice machine, more fun and looks is good too. So, we could have bought two BE for the price of the BT. But that may be another story


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## ajohn

Twin said:


> So, we could have bought two BE for the price of the BT. But that may be another story


I'm surprised most haven't noticed that. Fact - given the cost of parts and assembly time the touch is probably cheaper to make than the straight be - other than maybe recovering some costs involved in producing it.

John

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## Twin

ajohn said:


> I'm surprised most haven't noticed that. Fact - given the cost of parts and assembly time the touch is probably cheaper to make than the straight be - other than maybe recovering some costs involved in producing it.
> 
> John
> 
> -


True, it be the way company's increase their margins. Sometimes the result is a step backwards. This is seen in cars even, stick in a large screen, make everything cheaper, raise the price - considerably... Shame, because I liked the idea of the Barista Touch. For the record; I returned the BT to the store, ran to another store in the same chain, got a Dual Boiler for roughly only 100£ more than a Barista Express, which I would have bought if I didn't find the DB at such low price... the store had shredded near 400£ off the DB due to stock reduction. Now the water and coffee is WARM!


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## ajohn

I'd guess the best way to test the water heating capabilities of a touch is the hot water outlet. Checking brew temperatures is too complicate.

John

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## HansGruber

I have the same issue. I run several shots through then pour into a pre heated cup and get between 60 - 65c but as the water pours the temperature decreases rapidly. If i put coffee in I get more like 57c in the cup. I phoned customer support and got told that this is normal for this machine as it's intended for people in a rush who don't want to burn their mouths.......Does the dual boiler and the oracle have the rapid heat system?


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## Mrboots2u

HansGruber said:


> I have the same issue. I run several shots through then pour into a pre heated cup and get between 60 - 65c but as the water pours the temperature decreases rapidly. If i put coffee in I get more like 57c in the cup. I phoned customer support and got told that this is normal for this machine as it's intended for people in a rush who don't want to burn their mouths.......Does the dual boiler and the oracle have the rapid heat system?


Yes the Sage has a rapid theorem coil heat system . Again it's hard to tell anything as what you are measuring and what you are judging it against are two different things. There is no control or measure as to what anyone is measuring temp wise on this thread.

Several shots ? Is this in a spouted pf etc etc etc .

Get to the route of the problem , does the coffee taste bad? Or is it just not hot enough for you? Espresso doesn't end up in the cup at 90c plus....


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## DavecUK

HansGruber said:


> I have the same issue. I run several shots through then pour into a pre heated cup and get between 60 - 65c but as the water pours the temperature decreases rapidly. If i put coffee in I get more like 57c in the cup. I phoned customer support and got told that this is normal for this machine as it's intended for people in a rush who don't want to burn their mouths.......Does the dual boiler and the oracle have the rapid heat system?


Does this actually sound plausible....really. "People in a rush"...gotta love it.

For the OP, if it's definitely too cold, then it's too cold. 66C from the shower screen sounds way too low and in the cup you would be looking for 65-75+ depending on machine. Ultimately if you can drink it immediately, then it's too cold. If it's too cold for "people in a hurry", then it means people in a hurry don't like espresso extracted at the correct temperature or even close to it.

It could be part of the design, it could be a fault...certainly it's not acceptable on a machine costing £899?

I would recommend returning the machine if you can and would urge you to rethink your purchase to some other type of machine + grinder. With the convenience you think your getting you have a cheaply made machine and a cheaply made grinder that will never give really good espresso. A used prosumer machine and grinder is going to deliver far more in the cup, for very little extra effort.


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## Mrboots2u

I bet the 65c is temp in the cup , not the shower screen.

Until someone uses a protocol that makes sense for measuring this temp by which all of of these are done, then Im not convinced, that all these machines are faulty.


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## DavecUK

Mrboots2u said:


> I bet the 65c is temp in the cup , not the shower screen.
> 
> Until someone uses a protocol that makes sense for measuring this tempm which all of of these don't then Im not convinced, that all these machines are faulty.


It would be nice if sage had a real reviewer like me to check their machines out wouldn't it?









Ah...I forgot, they have the golden girls....


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## Mrboots2u

Someone can send me a scace to fit on the oracle if they want.


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## HansGruber

I'm not sure what the issue here is. If the suggested serving temperature is about 70c and my machine puts 57c into a cup then there seems to be an issue. Also if I set the temperature to high in the menu it makes no difference to the temperature which is strange.

The silly thing is, I already have a decent grinder so I probably should have got a separate espresso machine. I would miss the milk frothing abilities of the machine.


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## Mrboots2u

HansGruber said:


> I'm not sure what the issue here is. If the suggested serving temperature is about 70c and my machine puts 57c into a cup then there seems to be an issue. Also if I set the temperature to high in the menu it makes no difference to the temperature which is strange.
> 
> The silly thing is, I already have a decent grinder so I probably should have got a separate espresso machine. I would miss the milk frothing abilities of the machine.


I've never seen a suggested serving temperature before.

Re your earlier comments was it , water only 65c in the cup or directly out of the group. Your now saying 57c in the cup ? Is this water again or espresso you've made. Its really hard to get a grip of what your are measuring and how.

Clearly your not happy either way , whatever the measurement so try and send it back.

Again I'm have no clairity over what your measuring etc but if you don't think you can enjoy the espresso it makes , it makes no odds. I'm just no convinced it's the machine .


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## HansGruber

It tends to be 60 - 65 (usually 63) directly out of the group head into a preheated cup with a thermometer

If I pull a shot the temperature takes a hit and it's down to 57 ish

The temperature falls of rapidly towards the end of the shot also. Perhaps I will record a video.

I tend to always add milk to my espresso so I admit the issue here if any is potentially not worth escalating but I did pay a fair bit for the machine and I like things to be right. I would be curious to what other machines produce temperature wise into the cup.

temperature reference

http://www.brevilleusasupport.com/espresso/espresso-tips/


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## Mrboots2u

Your taking the temp of the water in the cup ?


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## HansGruber

Yes, next time I will put the portafilter in and jamb the thermometer in the spout and pull a shot perhaps I will see 60c but like the sage support said this machine if for people in a rush who don't want to burn their mouths.


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## Mrboots2u

HansGruber said:


> Yes, next time I will put the portafilter in and jamb the thermometer in the spout and pull a shot perhaps I will see 60c but like the sage support said this machine if for people in a rush who don't want to burn their mouths.


I'd take that with a pinch of salt .

You may have got someone who has just run out of answers to is my espresso hot enough or not ...

I can't measure my temp as I don't have a thermometer that goes that high.

I gonna bow out of this thread as I don't think I can be of any more help. Perhaps someone will give you the guidance , advice , confirmation you are looking for .

Ultimately your not happy with the machine , faulty or not , try and return it .


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## ajohn

I found the coffee rather cold when I started using a straight BE. The main reasons are two fold. More or less boiling water into a french press and mugs in my case taking a lot of heat out of the drink - cured by switching to light borosilicate mugs.

My biggest beef with the BE was lack of portafilter heating. Not much of a beef in some ways as I didn't want to use a machine that could take up to 1/2hr to get it hot. The DB is pretty quick but still takes 15min or so. It's generally reckoned that they should be in the region of 80C resulting in something significant lower when the shot hits the mug. A thin stream of water will loose heat pretty rapidly. I've seen figure of 70C where it hits the cup from a fully heated up conventional machine. A glass thermometer would mess measuring that up. Really it needs a rapid reacting tip thermocouple with low thermal mass. They can be found but aren't common, not for liquids anyway.

On the BE I noticed that the portafilter only got hot if 3 shots were run on the trot. Also each had a taste change. After one shot the top rim gets warm and the bottom remains cool thanks to the teflon insert. I believe all of the Sage manuals mention flushing the machine briefly and also warming the portafilter. I think the BE's now mention using the hot water outlet. Wastes a lot of water and is messy so I simply fitted a single pressurised basket and ran a shot through it. That should get your portafilter too hot to touch other than briefly. It's important to use a pressurised basket as it will keep flow rates in a sensible range for the PID to function correctly or at least nearly so. It's also very quick and easy to do. More importantly it will get it up into the region it aught to be in. It also gets the internals hot too - people are inclined to forget that.

The other thing to check and it will have less complications is the temperature of the hot water outlet. It would be interesting to know what that is. There is a complication. Higher heats drive flavour and aroma away so it doesn't want to be too hot. Maybe circa 70C.








Given working climates these days engineers may put crap out and start looking for a new job or be told to forget problems so duff ideas are a possibility. Only thing on that is that recently the straight BE has had similar reports and they do not have this problem if used sensibly. Unfortunately temperatures on espresso machines are not an easy thing to measure and the way people may be inclined to do that can be very misleading and too hot is not a good idea at all, That is even noticeable on instant. Try adding milk first, or use cooler water or achieve reasonable levels by putting the lot in a microwave starting with cold water and cold milk.

John

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## HansGruber

John

68c from the hot water outlet, I tried a pressurized single shot of water then ran some water through on a regular basket and got a more consistent 65-66c. So an improvement at least

I have been taking measurements in a double wall glass cup as it seems to hold the temperatures the best.

Thanks for the tips


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## ajohn

68C doesn't sound unreasonable to me. With coffee in a regular basket you will probably get higher reading at some point but the grinds themselves will take some heat away.

If you do preheat with a pressurised basket one of these is handy

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Portafilter-Basket-Removal-EDESIA-ESPRESS/dp/B073JP7KLD/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1552951287&sr=8-1&keywords=filter+basket+removal+tool

Also with a little care good for getting the rubber seal out of the grouphead for when you clean that area up. Actually preheating with a pressurised basket also gives the machine a regular clean water back flush. What ever is done though the area behind the shower screen will collect grinds that need cleaning out from time to time.

I did try a double walled glass mug. First type broke when I poured boiling water into it straight from a kettle. 2nd type broke internally when cleaning. The mugs I use are by unihom but they are rather large which may not suite, The hold 300 odd ml, much the same as a typical mug. Price was good on ebay and then I posted good feedback mentioning that they passed the boiling water out of a kettle test - seemed to put the price up.







They need a bit of care cleaning in case the handle gets pulled off. Not a good idea to hold that when cleaning. They are a little too tall for Sage machines so need tilting a bit to get them under the portafilter spouts. They may produce other sizes. They really do seem to be made of borosilicate which from my experiences is unusual. I like to drink tea out of glass especially with lemon.







Posey yes I know. Lots I have tried broke filled directly from a kettle.

These days I drink my coffee slowly. Taste changes as it cools can be interesting.

John

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## Twin

HansGruber said:


> John
> 
> 68c from the hot water outlet, I tried a pressurized single shot of water then ran some water through on a regular basket and got a more consistent 65-66c. So an improvement at least
> 
> I have been taking measurements in a double wall glass cup as it seems to hold the temperatures the best.
> 
> Thanks for the tips


Most likely you will find that the temperature fill vary, a lot. Try running just water through the portafilter every time (as this also heats the filter) you will use the machine. I may suffer from blacksmiths hands, but when the BT delivers as it should, you will not keep your hand in under there... On mine BT I had variations in one shot from very hot (not able to hold my hand for more than half a second till keeping my hand under and it was "slightly uncomfortable".

Sometimes the heat held through the whole shot, other times the heat lacked from start to finish. The BT with its thermojet is supposed to deliver consistent temperature, mine was absolutely not.

Therefore, I spoke to Sage's rep. here, which happened to have the same machine (BT) at home, in which he was very pleased with (delivering performance near Sage's dual boiler and Oracle; he should know...) After some fault searching he determined my BT to have either a faulty thermojet or maybe sensor (PID?) and advised me to return it for repair (exchange thermojet/sensor) As it happens, I bought a Dual Boiler instead, for an incredibly good price, also my girlfriend bought a Barista Express, both these are performing equally well.

I really like the BT with its amazing milk frothing, delivering fantastic espresso (when working properly), fast menu, when set up with the parameters you prefér.


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## andrej

I recently bought the Sage Barrista Touch (european name for the breville) and as i saw you guys are having issues with the temp, I checked mine just to be sure in case I should return it within the two week period which makes the return hassle free.

The most accurate measurement of the temp i could do was the temperature at the portafilter nozzle with no coffe in the filter. Measuring anything else (like temp in mug etc) had too many other variables in play so the figures were all over the place. Also measuring with the single wall filter gives wildly inaccurate numbers as the flow of water there without coffe in it is significantly higher than it would be with coffe in as there is very little resistance. Using the double wall filter insert actually simulates (at least to some extent) the resistance that a coffe in the filter would make, even without the coffe in it. Makes sense, as the dry preground coffe is lacking in resistance and thats the reason why the pressure needs to be artificialy created in the portafilter to brew it properly.

Measuring the flow of water out of the pressurized double wall portafilter nozzle (actually sticking the thermometer in the nozzle) reliably gives me 200F ... over and over again. You just have to wait a couple seconds for the thermometer to catch up with the water temp as its metal sensor (in my case) has its own mass that takes a while to match the temp of the water. Its actually a normal kitchen meat thermometer for some $15 so nothing fancy ... but from the few tests i did it seems to be pretty accurate.

Maybe you could try re-do your test and see if you can consistenty get 200F directly measured out of the portafilter nozzle too? Just be sure to use the double wall insert to simulate the pressure. I used the double shot one (not sure if using the single shot would make ani diff).﻿


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## aussieincal

Why are you asking this person about milk addition? He clearly has a defect in the design of the heating element or controller. I too have the same issue. My temp measures 72. Measure any way you like at the brew head it is well below the starting spec of around 90. Breville support gave me the same run around, even asked me what beans I use, grind setting etc. Please. One can guess why they wont print a spec for water temp at the brew head = because they can't. Shame on you Breville. Fix this or fade away.


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## Dalerst

I had the same problem with my touch, taking the temp from the cup, having invested in a decent thermapen and taken the temp from the portafilter it is actually delivering the shot at 87c and 89c on the second shot. Measuring the same shot in the cup and the reading is 71c and 74c.

These machines do need you to get the extraction right to deliver the correct temperature, as they use a thermojet system and not a boiler. If the shot doesn't do a pre infusion of at least 7 seconds the thermojet doesn't get up to temp and will produce a colder shot.


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## TomHughes

Dalerst said:


> I had the same problem with my touch, taking the temp from the cup, having invested in a decent thermapen and taken the temp from the portafilter it is actually delivering the shot at 87c and 89c on the second shot. Measuring the same shot in the cup and the reading is 71c and 74c.
> 
> These machines do need you to get the extraction right to deliver the correct temperature, as they use a thermojet system and not a boiler. If the shot doesn't do a pre infusion of at least 7 seconds the thermojet doesn't get up to temp and will produce a colder shot.


 I wouldn't bother, the guy is clearly angry and just wants to lay into Breville apparently! Why he has come on a UK forum to do it is anyone's guess! 
He's measuring it wrong and his machine is likely fine


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## Tobiremote

Same issue here with luke warm espresso. Such a shame, I like the machine otherwise. But if you can comfortably dip your finger in the coffee and your husband complains of cold coffee, something is wrong.

That's after adjusting the temperature to max and preheating the mug etc.

Will try to return the machine now.


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## TomHughes

Tobiremote said:


> Same issue here with luke warm espresso. Such a shame, I like the machine otherwise. But if you can comfortably dip your finger in the coffee and your husband complains of cold coffee, something is wrong.
> 
> That's after adjusting the temperature to max and preheating the mug etc.
> 
> Will try to return the machine now.


 What's your shot time?


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## Salmon

I have had a BT for a while now, and also originally found the temperature was cooler than I liked, but the following helped to bring the temperature up (some of these seem obvious):

- Preheat the cup using the empty portafilter - filling the espresso cup with the machine warms the cup, the portafilter, and the group head, whilst also driving hot water through the pipes, ready for your coffee

- I started using stoneware espresso cups which retain heat really well, particularly when preheated (if you like the coffee to retain heat even better, preheat the cup with freshly boiled water from kettle too - but I think this is overkill)

- I bought a 54mm bottomless portafilter. This made a significant difference - I suspect a lot of the heat got lost hitting the inner plastic of the portafilter, then running through the spout. No issue with this in the bottomless - straight from the portafilter to the prewarmed cup.

Couple of extra notes:

- the BT inner burr setting out if the box is awful - I needed to set it down from the default of 6 to 3. This allowed for proper extraction. Leaving it at 6 with side dial to 1, just didn't grind beans fine enough and so not sufficient contact time with the water or heat retention.

- Once inner burr was properly set, I checked the temperature of the puck in the portafilter after pouring - this had a temperature of 92 Celsius - perfect temperature for the coffee extraction.

- The instruction manual recommends 15-18g of coffee in the double portafilter basket, but I found these are better with 20g of coffee (strangely, the barista pro which uses the same basket recommends 19-22g)

Hope this helps.


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## Lyniix

Anyone know if the problem is as bad for the Breville barista pro?


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## kennyboy993

Lyniix said:


> Anyone know if the problem is as bad for the Breville barista pro?


Same tech as the bambino so yes - hot enough brew temp will always be something of a challenge. Doable with the right warm up routine and crucially - the right flow rate at brew time

Having had one for a while after a series of e61 machines I'd say if you regularly drink medium or lights roasts it may be more trouble than it's worth


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## ajohn

The silly aspect about this area is people measuring brew temperature as they do. It can not be done with anything other than then correct equipment which will also test at brewing water flow rates. There is no point testing at any other flow rate. Even taping into the flow to the group head before it gets to the coffee can give misleading results.

One area that can be checked is temperature when the shot hits the cup. Generally the makers will have aimed at the 70C range but obviously if the cup is significantly colder it will cool it as may the portafilter but Sage add some insulation to avoid a lot of that 🤣 which some take out.

I posted a method of heating earlier it flushes the machine as well. If used the machine should not be flushed again as that will cool the thermo what ever it is so the temperature that comes out then is irrelevant. Another way is flush as that should always be done and then run a bit of steam. In both cases brew temperature will be as it should be. Run water through without a puck or pressurised basket fitted it wont be so there was no point in doing it.

This behaviour is a feature of PID really. It and the heating power that is available can only achieve so much and maintain a stable temperature.

Now if some one said their americano or even milk based drink wasn't hot enough I'd say look at the heat taken up by whatever you drink out of. Part of this is down to drinking coffee via a kettle using near boiling water. We switched to a hot water dispenser and believe it or not being able to select a coffee temperature makes an enormous difference to even the taste of instant. Milk based - well frothing milk involves taking it to a certain temperature. I usually go higher than ideal which tends to make it stiffer.

I would say that maybe the hot water coming out of my BE could usefully have been a *bit* hotter but too hot will drive flavours and aroma away. Either use mugs etc take out less heat or preheat them some how. There is a reason many espresso machines have cup warming facilities. Some will get them too hot as well.

Lighter and medium didn't really cause me any problems on a BE. Tuning is crucial and what works well on some machines may need significant changes on this range of machines.


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## coffee43135673

Mrboots2u said:


> I'm not sure I saw a qualified measuring of temp on either of em, other than not hot enoughh


 I had an engineer out to test mine and it was not hot enough.. I now have the barista express which is 10 degrees warmer and offers much more flexibility in making coffees... at last I can make GREAT coffee.


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## coffee43135673

the machine has an engineer mode which enables temperature monitoring internally. That combined with an external thermomenter is what the engineer used to test mine before it went back to be replaced by the (in my opinion far superior) barista express.


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## coffee43135673

coffee43135673 said:


> the machine has an engineer mode which enables temperature monitoring internally. That combined with an external thermomenter is what the engineer used to test mine before it went back to be replaced by the (in my opinion far superior) barista express.


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## Mrboots2u

coffee43135673 said:


> I had an engineer out to test mine and it was not hot enough.. I now have the barista express which is 10 degrees warmer and offers much more flexibility in making coffees... at last I can make GREAT coffee.


 Why are you quoting a post i made in 2019


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