# Crem One 2B R-LFPP



## DavecUK

Just completed the review/testing on this new Crem machine, it's taken 4 months. I've had it on the bench since early October 2019. It's been interesting and tough sometimes especially the battles with a large corporate from where it was and where it is now but it's getting easier.  Enjoy, even if you are not considering one, I think you will find it interesting, even educational. Warning, it's a very long review and lots of videos.

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2019/12/16/crem-one-2b/


----------



## Stekipho

Thanks, it was a great read and educational indeed. I've seen it's brother the Crem One 2B R-GSP this week and it looks very good.

The ability to upgrade the firmware at home looks very promising (and necessary..) from your review. Having ordered a Vesuvius last week I'm not in the market for the Crem, but I'll be following it's development in the coming months/years to see what they can do with the machine!


----------



## ajohn

Interesting Dave -  Huawei video I assume. You'll have Trump phoning you up.

Personally I wish they would think about americano water temperature on steam boilers even though there will be a limit on how much can be run out, Some one recently wondered why they would have to boil a kettle for 200ml. Ok steam water cools but should be at about 85 or so for coffee. That would also save power as reduces heat loss rate.

Didn't notice any comments on a steam boiler drain but may have missed it. Being a numpty I prefer the brew and steam terms rather than service. Also over pressure valve which in many cases sets max brew pressure. I'm thinking of setting my DB back to 10bar, previous owner changed it and also want to see if it can be used as Sage intended.

I assume the pick a colour on the panels is on stainless and not hiding steel. I get the impression steel can crop up elsewhere inside as well painted black or some other colour some of it not being covered - holes etc.

I was not surprised to see a brushed motor as I'd guess it will take a while for brushless to read across. Brushed can last a very very long time but some don't. Brushless can provides the speed control as well. In principle they should be cheaper than brushed motors

Firmware upgrades can be important when ever machines contain software what ever they are.

I've looked at "loads" of your videos showing machine internals. Curiosity in case I buy and also to compare with what Sage get up to.

LOL Can't help adding you are no doubt richer now. I do know it's more of a hobby really though with scant if any rewards other than satisfaction.

John

-


----------



## DavecUK

ajohn said:


> LOL Can't help adding you are no doubt richer now. I do know it's more of a hobby really though with scant if any rewards other than satisfaction.
> 
> John


 Richer; having added to the sum of human knowledge and relief because my company pension will finally start next May...been living on savings ever since I stopped work 15 years ago, and with two littluns to raise it was tough. Now they are 17 and it's still not getting any cheaper!

Lots of other stuff in your post John, but I think the review was more than long enough, and I still have some tip sheets & vids to make for BB customers. I pick up the ECM Puristika tomorrow but won't start on it for a few weeks as I want a bit of a break from reviewing.

P.S. I really do mean it when I say espresso machines shouldn't be used as a kettle, that service boiler water should be used for steaming and heating cups...that's it.


----------



## ajohn

I know what you mean about early retirement. For various reasons one of which might be that there would be nothing there when I was at the right age I took mine as soon as I retired. This had a savage effect on my income.

Sage provide hot water for drinks by what software people that work on that sort of thing call features - it happens to work maybe with limitations. My sort of design engineering would cause me to look at the processor and if capable say ok but for X months of work it could do better plus any on costs, probably zero in this case or near it  then the sods would probably tell me to do it. It's called meeting a customers expectations or even better exceeding them, Fine apart from any cost implications as all things need to be sold at some point. Sage actually surprised me as I would have thought there was insufficient market to justify the expense on tooling. They don't change some things very often and in some ways go slowly. Impressive really as is some of their engineering.  Wish they had put as much effort into their toasters - had to send it back. The laughed and gave me a refund. The sad side of engineering.

John

-


----------



## Rob1

The dispersion looks very similar or identical to the one on my old Brewtus.


----------



## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> The dispersion looks very similar or identical to the one on my old Brewtus.


 I have not examined a Brewtus for more than 12 years. They used to be the same as everything else. I have not seen that design before.


----------



## Stekipho

Crem owns Expobar, so that explains any similarities. From what I've heard the Expobar brand will be phased out in the coming years and Crem will be the brand it'll all be consolidated under.


----------



## Rob1

I'm wondering about a couple of things. Why does service boiler pressure affect the shot pressure? Is there a hx running through a service boiler to pre-heat water entering the brew boiler as in the brewtus? Why or rather how is the offset so low?

Can't believe all these advanced features...and you can't turn the service boiler off! Are they planning to release 4 variants of this with improvements and upgrades as they did the Brewtus?

Barista knob sounds like an insult.


----------



## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> 1. I'm wondering about a couple of things. Why does service boiler pressure affect the shot pressure? 2. Is there a hx running through a service boiler to pre-heat water entering the brew boiler as in the brewtus? Why or rather how is the offset so low?
> 
> 3. Can't believe all these advanced features...and you can't turn the service boiler off! 4. Are they planning to release 4 variants of this with improvements and upgrades as they did the Brewtus?
> 
> 5. Barista knob sounds like an insult.


 I'll answer each point in turn (briefly)

1. It doesn't, but on a profiler you can only use a pressure as low as the lowest pressure in the system.

2. Yes and affecting point1 is if you use a pressure lower than the service boiler pressure you get flash off to steam. Fortunately pressures less than about 1.4 bar are not productive anyway. Before you ask doesn't affect Vesuvius because I was involved in the HX design, size, HX off function and complete mechanical disconnect of the hydraulics when lever is down or HX is off.

3. Amazed as me, so I outed that fact in the review and I am confident they will sort that sooner rather than later as I am sure a review like mine focusses their mind 

4. Nope, just new firmware and as that can be flashed by downloading onto a USB key, inserting in machine and pressing a few buttons, more new firmware the better I will like it,.

5. Calling a Barista a knob probably is, but "Barista multifunction control wheel" is a bit of a mouthful and I invented enough new terms already 

It's actually an excellent machine, so it is irritating for a few stupid things to remain in the programming and some huge opportunities for extra functions are quite exciting. I honestly *loved* using it. I also quite like hand finishing profiles to get em exactly right without having to rerun them again. 

P.S. Expobar bought by Crem, bought by Wellbilt....However all machines under the Crem name going forward.


----------



## mctrials23

This seems like a direct competitor to the Vesuvius. What would you say are the main pros and cons of each Dave?


----------



## DavecUK

mctrials23 said:


> This seems like a direct competitor to the Vesuvius. What would you say are the main pros and cons of each Dave?


 I think that's going to be different for different people, best they simply read the reviews....then they can make their own minds up what's important to them. I'll be moving onto the ECM Puristika next.... after a little reviewing break. Do need to unbox it and get it on the counter though for a few weeks familiarisation.


----------



## Nikko

Coffee extraction is driven more by flow than pressure, so it makes sense to control on flow rather than on pressure.

The Crem people realise this and this machine is a step towards flow control. However, a proper flow control is expensive to achieve (unlike pressure control), hence this innovative pressure/volume control hybrid. We are told it works well, so the recommendation to add a time based pressure control option seems pointless and a step backwards.

The review tells us that the offset between the boiler temperature and the desired brew temperature is only 7C but it does not say how it has been achieved, except to say that it is a good thing and that temperature control is good. May be.

What makes no sense is the statement that brew pressures should not be below the pressure in the steam boiler (for some unknown reason referred to as service) due to flashing. This would imply that temperature control is rather poor and that brew water exits at above its flash temperature at atmospheric pressure, which is always the pressure at the start of the extraction process. This is a problem of some HX machines but not of dual boiler machines, even with higher temperature offsets.

Rob1 raised this issue above but did not get an answer that makes sense, but implied that the Crem designers are a bunch of numpties. At the beginning of the review the reviewer states that "...it's a very candid review&#8230;" so why cannot this be clarified?


----------



## Rob1

Nikko said:


> What makes no sense is the statement that brew pressures should not be below the pressure in the steam boiler (for some unknown reason referred to as service) due to flashing. This would imply that temperature control is rather poor and that brew water exits at above its flash temperature at atmospheric pressure, which is always the pressure at the start of the extraction process. This is a problem of some HX machines but not of dual boiler machines, even with higher temperature offsets.


 I think it is you just have to put two and two together. I might be completely wrong in my conclusion though....from what I can glean the low flow is achieved via pressure in the HX that feeds the brew boiler and the flash off to steam (I believe is mentioned in the review) relates to the water entering the brew boiler from the HX not from the group head??? Thus creating a void in the brew boiler and messing everything up; lower pressure would just have water sitting in the HX superheating. Or maybe it's not created by the service pressure but rather a lower limit is dictated by it; i.e. if the pump tries to push water through the HX at 1 bar and the service boiler is 1.5 then the service boiler will win, the pump will be supplying water too slowly and water will start flashing to steam in the circuit...or maybe not...


----------



## Nikko

Rob1 said:


> I think it is you just have to put two and two together. I might be completely wrong in my conclusion though....from what I can glean the low flow is achieved via pressure in the HX that feeds the brew boiler and the flash off to steam (I believe is mentioned in the review) relates to the water entering the brew boiler from the HX not from the group head??? Thus creating a void in the brew boiler and messing everything up; lower pressure would just have water sitting in the HX superheating. Or maybe it's not created by the service pressure but rather a lower limit is dictated by it; i.e. if the pump tries to push water through the HX at 1 bar and the service boiler is 1.5 then the service boiler will win, the pump will be supplying water too slowly and water will start flashing to steam in the circuit...or maybe not...


 Sorry, but none of your ideas make sense.

We should not have to put two and two together in a candid review


----------



## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> i.e. if the pump tries to push water through the HX at 1 bar and the service boiler is 1.5 then the service boiler will win, the pump will be supplying water too slowly and water will start flashing to steam in the circuit...or maybe not...


 I think you pretty much got it....for some people they may have to re-read things a few times, for others, they will just need to trust me and I think many people trust me more than the polished, scripted, professionally produced, marketing stuff they see on the internet

The real shame of it all is if they had let me see the machine a year ago instead of asking for me to sign an NDA, then they would have solved any issues long ago and probably had a lot of the huge opportunity stuff done in firmware as well.. Trouble with large corporates is they have these rules so when I said no, they were not allowed to send it to me. They even broke their rules a bit sending it to me last October...but what a good job they did....I found a few problems already now corrected in current firmware. Also large corporates can have the "enthusiastic amateur" vs professional expert mentality, fortunately they don't seem to be like that any more and are in "listening mode".

The big problem with an NDA for me was that I wouldn't have been able to write the sort of review you saw without their full approval....I also could not have commented in a forum or anywhere else on any issues. That simply wasn't going to happen as I have far too much integrity for that. I don't review for money, I review to make things better. It's a great machine already, few little things they can fix easy in firmware and some enhancements to extend and fine tune some functions are a massive opportunity.

P.S. The machine was originally due to be released before Christmas.....you can thank me later


----------



## Nikko

Rob1 said:


> i.e. if the pump tries to push water through the HX at 1 bar and the service boiler is 1.5 then the service boiler will win, the pump will be supplying water too slowly and water will start flashing to steam in the circuit...or maybe not...
> 
> DavecUK replied:
> 
> I think you pretty much got it....


 If the pump tries to push water through the HX at 1 bar, first of all the brew lever needs to be opened at which point any pressure in the HX will drop to zero and there will be no resistance to flow until the head space in the portafilter has been filled up and resistance built up by the puck. The pressure inside the steam boiler has absolutely no bearing on the flow in the brew path.


----------



## Rob1

Nikko said:


> If the pump tries to push water through the HX at 1 bar, first of all the brew lever needs to be opened at which point any pressure in the HX will drop to zero and there will be no resistance to flow until the head space in the portafilter has been filled up and resistance built up by the puck. The pressure inside the steam boiler has absolutely no bearing on the flow in the brew path.


 Ok yes... but the pressure in the steam boiler has to effect the brew path because of the hx, which is part of the brew path and heated by the service boiler.

Btw @ajohn and nikko, I don't know why it's service boiler and not steam boiler, but could be something to draw attention to its ability to 'serve' hot water especially in a commercial environment where that might be a thing without space/budget for separate equipment. The term annoyed me for a while.

Barista dial...just putting it out there.


----------



## Nikko

Rob1 said:


> Ok yes... but the pressure in the steam boiler has to effect the brew path because of the hx, which is part of the brew path and heated by the service boiler.


 The pressure in the steam boiler affects the pressure in the brew path only as long as the brew path is closed. Open the brew path and the pressure relieves immediately to zero.

So when the lever is raised to open the brew path and start the pump there is no pressure in the brew path


----------



## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> Ok yes... but the pressure in the steam boiler has to effect the brew path because of the hx, which is part of the brew path and heated by the service boiler.
> 
> I don't know why it's service boiler and not steam boiler, but could be something to draw attention to its ability to 'serve' hot water especially in a commercial environment


 Right and right. The term in the Italian espresso industry amongst designers and professionals is "service boiler", in the same way OVP is actually called an "expansion valve". It more correctly refers to the function and is the correct name. In a sense "amateurs" use the term OPV and steam boiler whilst professionals and designers use the other term. Me I'm flexible and easy about it although I would prefer to drive a bit of change so people use the right names....

Interesting that its actually frowned upon to use the service boiler for hot water in commercial establishments and might even be illegal in some cities.


----------



## Nikko

Rob1 said:


> Btw @ajohn and nikko, I don't know why it's service boiler and not steam boiler, but could be something to draw attention to its ability to 'serve' hot water especially in a commercial environment where that might be a thing without space/budget for separate equipment. The term annoyed me for a while.


 As steam is the vapour phase of water, a steam boiler can also dispense water. Anything can be called "service " so is confusing as there are two boilers.


----------



## DavecUK

Oh you asked why the offset is so low. Large diameter pipes, length bends and placement....it's a good thing though. Oh and that large area of water above the puck helps due to the group design.


----------



## Rob1

Yes.... but then resistance builds because of the puck, hence holding at 1 bar or 1.5 bar. If there were no resistance when you start brewing the there wouldn't be an increase of pressure. If the service boiler is heating the water in the hx the water will get hot enough in the brew path to increase pressure against the puck. The hx feeds the brew boiler, so pressure in the hx due to water temp will affect brew pressure by setting a lower limit...

Seems you think the hx is cut out of the brew path when the lever is lifted but that is not the case. I don't like hx fed brew boilers, presumably it helps with maintaining heat over multiple shots but that shouldn't really be an issue in the home with a single group.



Nikko said:


> As steam is the vapour phase of water, a steam boiler can also dispense water. Anything can be called "service " so is confusing as there are two boilers.


 Yes I agree to an extent especially for people buying their first prosumer machine. I remember being muddled about it for a while until I just started looking for the term "brew boiler". I remember the term service boiler describing a HX machine I was looking at and it seemed to imply to me there was another boiler somewhere, which was very confusing at the time.


----------



## Nikko

DavecUK said:


> Right and right. The term in the Italian espresso industry amongst designers and professionals is "service boiler", in the same way OVP is actually called an "expansion valve". It more correctly refers to the function and is the correct name. In a sense "amateurs" use the term OPV and steam boiler whilst professionals and designers use the other term. Me I'm flexible and easy about it although I would prefer to drive a bit of change so people use the right names....
> 
> Interesting that its actually frowned upon to use the service boiler for hot water in commercial establishments and might even be illegal in some cities.


 This is an English language forum so why not stick to English terms. Borrowing words from other languages, eg gicleur, when perfectly good English words are available is silly, particularly if one does not know how to pronounce them correctly.


----------



## Nikko

Rob1 said:


> Yes.... but then resistance builds because of the puck, hence holding at 1 bar or 1.5 bar. If there were no resistance when you start brewing the there wouldn't be an increase of pressure. If the service boiler is heating the water in the hx the water will get hot enough in the brew path to increase pressure against the puck. The hx feeds the brew boiler, so pressure in the hx due to water temp will affect brew pressure by setting a lower limit...
> 
> Seems you think the hx is cut out of the brew path when the lever is lifted but that is not the case. I don't like hx fed brew boilers, presumably it helps with maintaining heat over multiple shots but that shouldn't really be an issue in the home with a single group.
> 
> Yes I agree to an extent especially for people buying their first prosumer machine. I remember being muddled about it for a while until I just started looking for the term "brew boiler". I remember the term service boiler describing a HX machine I was looking at and it seemed to imply to me there was another boiler somewhere, which was very confusing at the time.


 The HX is not cut out of the brew path when the lever is lifted but any pressure in the brew path due to the steam boiler will be relieved when the lever is lifted. From that point on the steam boiler has no effect on the hydraulics of the brew path.

Flow will stop if the pump cannot overcome the puck resistance.


----------



## _shakeyjake_

DavecUK said:


> Just completed the review/testing on this new Crem machine, it's taken 4 months. I've had it on the bench since early October 2019. It's been interesting and tough sometimes especially the battles with a large corporate from where it was and where it is now but it's getting easier.  Enjoy, even if you are not considering one, I think you will find it interesting, even educational. Warning, it's a very long review and lots of videos.
> https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2019/12/16/crem-one-2b/


Says it's password protected? Am I missing something?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## DavecUK

_shakeyjake_ said:


> Says it's password protected? Am I missing something?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


 New firmware coming that fixes many of the issues I identified, so will load and retest, then adjust review to reflect the changes. I didn't realise it was coming so soon.


----------



## 9719

_shakeyjake_ said:


> Says it's password protected? Am I missing something?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


@DavecUK think shakeyjake means this...


----------



## mctrials23

Dave knows what he means. Dave has just taken down the review until he has updated his review based on the new firmware being provided for him. Once he has done that it will be reinstated.


----------



## ajohn

Rob1 said:


> I think it is you just have to put two and two together. I might be completely wrong in my conclusion though....from what I can glean the low flow is achieved via pressure in the HX that feeds the brew boiler and the flash off to steam (I believe is mentioned in the review) relates to the water entering the brew boiler from the HX not from the group head??? Thus creating a void in the brew boiler and messing everything up; lower pressure would just have water sitting in the HX superheating. Or maybe it's not created by the service pressure but rather a lower limit is dictated by it; i.e. if the pump tries to push water through the HX at 1 bar and the service boiler is 1.5 then the service boiler will win, the pump will be supplying water too slowly and water will start flashing to steam in the circuit...or maybe not...


 Afraid it doesn't make much sense to me either as I use dual boiler with an HX preheat on the feed to the brew boiler. This particular machine arrives set for a 10bar limit on brew pressure that the makers don't really want users to exceed so literally is an over pressure valve. It's pretty common for people to reset it to 8. Some one has done that to mine -  blame the web. If they looked further they might have set 9. In real terms just leaving it at 10 is highly unlikely to have detrimental effects and would allow users to try it as it's intended to be used in volumetric mode. On this particular machine people also set up to brew at even lower pressures via pump control.

So what is actually going on. The HX section is designed to add a certain amount of heat to the flow to the brew boiler over a limited range of flow rates. Providing the water flow remains in that range it wont flash off. At the end of a shot it will flash off at some point. On the other hand due to heat loss rates external to the HX section it might not - unlikely to be high enough. It all comes down to design and there has to be a limit to how much heat is added by the HX section for pretty obvious reasons. In practice it's likely to finish up helping rather than curing the problem it's trying to cure. Not sure where any flash off goes on mine - maybe be the 3 way empties the circuit or prevents any pressure build up after the shot has been pulled.

 Being me I noticed one other aspect about the review. That relates to steam boilers must have an over pressure valve. My steam boiler also uses PID and a thermal fuse and on the face of it no over pressure valve. In practice it has several - the seals on the pipes going to it. The reviewed machine pass but I wouldn't have much respect for a designer that didn't consider factors like this when the usual valve is omitted. Not a criticism of you Dave because when you mentioned this area to them they didn't say yes but ................

John

-


----------



## ajohn

I just checked some assumptions on the above. They seem to match what I expected. They run the steam boiler at 3 bar and infusion spends some time below that. In fact the gauge suggests that the infusion range is 0 to 3 bar. It would be interesting to know how much pre heat the HX section adds.  I could get some idea with my fingers - maybe - but I'd suspect not a lot as any makes the boiler "appear to be larger".

John

-


----------



## DavecUK

OK I've made the review public again after testing the revised firmware. Nice that Crem have taken all the feedback seriously 

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2019/12/16/crem-one-2b/

I really needed to finish this as I have other projects on the go... Puristika, Mara X, Elizabeth, Roasters and Grinders.


----------



## Rozzer

How would you say this compares to a Lelit Bianca? I was pretty set on a Bianca but now being on lockdown I can't help but continue researching and now I've got doubts again.

Having the ability to store profiles is a big win and it appears the Crem will be more accurate as you can adjust at 0.2 bar intervals rather than relying on a manual paddle. How do the internals/build quality compare? I see the Crem uses copper boilers where the Lelit uses stainless steel.

I quite like the Crem as it has nice little features such as the USB and being able to update it. Lelit just brought out a new update and you've got to order new parts, a USB is so much simpler in todays world. Also things like the big drip tray and sensor I like, I mean who enjoys emptying the drip tray all the time.

Then I keep seeing the Vesuvius thread by Paolo and not sure if I should just get that. Although out of the three I can't say the Vesuvius is a looker. The build quality of the Vesuvius does appeal to me as my next purchase will be a keeper and I can see me keeping it for 10/15 years, unless I win the lottery and then I'd get the Rocket R 9 1.


----------



## DavecUK

I stopped doing comparisons a long time ago. I try and present the information best I can so people can have a look and decide which machine suits them best. I point out any important (and not so important) gotchas, or benefits. I don't sell machines, so don't have a vested interest in what you buy. If I get a machine that I personally wouldn't buy I simply won't review it....If the manufacturer makes changes then I will reconsider if it fixes any "perceived" issues I had. I don't really believe in wasting my time doing negative reviews as I don't get monetise anything or use affiliate links, so I'm not seeking "clicks"

This doesn't mean if I have not reviewed/tested it, it's not any good, sometimes I just can't be arsed because it's not interesting to me, or I have not been asked. It also might be a prototype that will make production in a significantly enhanced form e.g. ECM Puristika, so rather than review it, I simply feed back to the manufacturer....although I would love to do a small piece on Puristika, it's very early in the development cycle, much like the prototype MaraX back in May 2019..

I usually review what I like, or find personally interesting, so for me all the machines have appeal. I love the Bianca, Crem One 2B LFPP, MaraX, Vesuvius, Puristika, Minima, Duetto MK1, Elizabeth....etc..So it's difficult to say one machine is better than another *for you* when I see good in them all.


----------



## nobas

Great review. I am really liking this machine. Especially since the r9 one wont fit in my place i am looking for alternatives.

In the review you mentioned a pump off command for the profile text files. So would that be kind of volumetric dosing?

Will the machine stick to the last selected profile (beyond restart) or do you have to select a profile for each shot?


----------



## LAYAS

I have a question. In the time based pressure profile, you know that you should design a profile with different pressure settings for a total of around 35s which is somehow the agreed accepted time for pulling a shot. However, in the volume based pressure profile how can you determine how much volume you need for every stage of the profile since u do not know how much volume will end up in your cup. I do not know if i make myself clear.?


----------



## DavecUK

If your profile has a total of 112 ml this will give roughly 35g in the cup from 17g in....with about 2-5 seconds leeway to lower the lever and end the shot just before the end of the profile. If you are manually coding profiles this is a good guide.

Each step in the profile.txt file is approximately 3.8 to 3.9s long, depending on flow rate as the machine has a built in countdown that runs regardless to help prevent profile stalling. This built in countdown is about 1s every 4s.

If the above is a bit tricky (or you don't understand) and you're not into editing profiles, simply create them manually as the manufacturers intended, use scales and weigh the output. Stop the profile when you have the output weight in g that you want *(plus 4g, to give you leeway and to ensure the pump is still running when you lower the lever)* and you're done. Weigh coffee in, weigh espresso out.

@nobasThere is no specific pump off command in the profiles, the pump runs until the volume has been delivered, but you want to have lowered the lever just before that happens.

P.S. I actually have the latest firmware for the unit but not updating the review until I get a revision. somethings not working as I feel it should.


----------



## Rozzer

DavecUK said:


> If your profile has a total of 112 ml this will give roughly 35g in the cup from 17g in....with about 2-5 seconds leeway to lower the lever and end the shot just before the end of the profile. If you are manually coding profiles this is a good guide.
> 
> Each step in the profile.txt file is approximately 3.8 to 3.9s long, depending on flow rate as the machine has a built in countdown that runs regardless to help prevent profile stalling. This built in countdown is about 1s every 4s.
> 
> If the above is a bit tricky (or you don't understand) and you're not into editing profiles, simply create them manually as the manufacturers intended, use scales and weigh the output. Stop the profile when you have the output weight in g that you want *(plus 4g, to give you leeway and to ensure the pump is still running when you lower the lever)* and you're done. Weigh coffee in, weigh espresso out.
> 
> @nobasThere is no specific pump off command in the profiles, the pump runs until the volume has been delivered, but you want to have lowered the lever just before that happens.
> 
> P.S. I actually have the latest firmware for the unit but not updating the review until I get a revision. somethings not working as I feel it should.


 I'll wait for the updated review. From reading your current review it does seem that the Crem is lacking a bit on the firmware front. When you compare to something like the vesuvius where you can change a magnitude of settings. I can understand maybe Crem not wanting people to change settings and not trusting people to leave them alone if they don't know what they're doing but having the options to change deeper settings if you need to is a nice touch.


----------



## DavecUK

Rozzer said:


> I'll wait for the updated review. From reading your current review it does seem that the Crem is lacking a bit on the firmware front. When you compare to something like the vesuvius where you can change a magnitude of settings. I can understand maybe Crem not wanting people to change settings and not trusting people to leave them alone if they don't know what they're doing but having the options to change deeper settings if you need to is a nice touch.


 What were the "deeper setting"s you wanted to change?

The only thing they have locked out are the PID settings, but fortunately the temps are fine. The firmware is extensive, as are the functions, there's lots of settings. I had to make a 30m video to explain them (unpublished) You have only seen a very small portion of the firmware in the review.

Although the machine can be used with the simpler functions by anyone, it takes quite an advanced user to get the best out of the machine. It's certainly not for everyone. The most exciting thing is the ability to add all sorts of features over time (e.g. Timed stage profiling) as the core hardware is there. They may also decide to unlock the full PID settings but as it works fine, there is probably no need, I wanted the offset available and I got it..

What machine do you have at the moment?


----------



## Rozzer

DavecUK said:


> What were the "deeper setting"s you wanted to change?
> 
> The only thing they have locked out are the PID settings, but fortunately the temps are fine. The firmware is extensive, as are the functions, there's lots of settings. I had to make a 30m video to explain them (unpublished) You have only seen a very small portion of the firmware in the review.
> 
> Although the machine can be used with the simpler functions by anyone, it takes quite an advanced user to get the best out of the machine. It's certainly not for everyone. The most exciting thing is the ability to add all sorts of features over time (e.g. Timed stage profiling) as the core hardware is there. They may also decide to unlock the full PID settings but as it works fine, there is probably no need, I wanted the offset available and I got it..
> 
> What machine do you have at the moment?


 Ahhh OK then I am mistaken. Reading in-between the lines of your review I presumed that the settings didn't go as deep as say the vesuvius. On the Vesuvius you can change a lot including PID, offsets, motor acceleration rate etc. When you said in the Crem review that you had to go back to Crem to get the offset setting added to the firmware so you can change them I presumed that the initial range of settings wasn't as deep as the Vesuvius.

Agree about the advanced users and not changing something you don't know about. I'm not saying I would change them but I think it is nice that a manufacturer gives you the option if you wish. I'm a systems engineer by day so deal with PIDs, motors, control loops, electrics etc all the time so it frustrates me when manufacturers/software engineers don't give me all the options I would like, but hey that is just me. Would love to see the firmware/functions video for my geek side but I get that most people probably wouldn't be interested.


----------



## DavecUK

Rozzer said:


> Would love to see the firmware/functions video for my geek side but I get that most people probably wouldn't be interested.


 Those functions are all in the advanced menu you have access to them all, however once set they really should be left. I will give BB my imfacto.bin which are the settings I use and people can mod them from there, mainly the on off timers. The only things you relly don't have access to are the PI and D parameters, bands. The offset for brew is available (because I asked for it). The other thing you cannot control apart from in the GSP menu is motor voltage and in GSP they now added a min and max voltage (I asked for a max voltage setting for GSP). This gives two completely independent systems for producing a shot. One using the pressure sensor and one that doesn't use the pressure sensor or volumetrics at all. There are in fact 3 shot types. QSP, GSP and Adaptive profiling. Hopefully in the coming months new firmware will add times stage as well.

It's a sophisticated enough machine for most that want a more traditional approach.


----------



## Beans 97

Hi there I am just reading about the Crem one my first time in visiting this site I have watched Dave videos on this machine and I do like the look of it

are the screws on the side panels always on show or is there a cover plate for this ?


----------



## DavecUK

They are very nice screws and always on show.


----------



## Beans 97

Ok thanks

did you say it was volumetric was this only went you have set up a profile does the lever stay down if you are using the same profile again if the machine was switched off does it still stay in the profile mode you had left it on


----------



## DavecUK

Beans 97 said:


> Ok thanks
> 
> 1. did you say it was volumetric was this only went you have set up a profile
> 
> 2. does the lever stay down.
> 
> 3. if you are using the same profile again if the machine was switched off does it still stay in the profile mode you had left it on


 1. Yes

2. No you have to move it up and down using the MK1 human hand

3. No, after using a profile, you have to select the profile again, otherwise it works in GSP mode as the default if GSP is enabled (which lets face it, it should be), if GSP is not enabled it just works like any other rotary pumped dual boiler.

There is a review on my wordpress site which goes into more detail and puts the videos in proper context, it also ensures you don't miss some videos, I suspect (by your questions) you may not have seen them all.


----------



## Beans 97

Ok thanks I will have a more in-depth look at the video

what grinder would you recommend to go with and get the best out of this machine


----------



## DavecUK

Beans 97 said:


> Ok thanks I will have a more in-depth look at the video
> 
> what grinder would you recommend to go with and get the best out of this machine


 Best you can afford Minimum £500 plus if possible, especially if you want to use the adaptive profiling to it's best advantage by letting it self adjust to small changes in grind to get the sweet spot for a coffee.


----------



## Beans 97

Could you please narrow Down maybe a selection of 3 grinders you could recommend

I wouldn't want to skimp on the grinder thanks


----------



## DavecUK

Eureka Speciality 75e, Ceado E37s, Niche Zero and any used Commercial with 75mm plus burrs.


----------



## Abdullah

First of all...

Thank you dave for your review i watched the video and read the blog...

I did ordered Crem One - Dual Boiler PID R GSP WT/WC from bellabarista yesterday and it will arrive soon..

My question is : can i adjust boiler Bar pressure and steam bar pressure from the Oled screen?

If not where is the screw that adjust it?

(If you can show it by a picture itbwill ve great)


----------



## KevinCoffee

Thanks @DavecUK for the great review of the Crem One! I am planning to buy the Crem One Dual Boiler (https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/crem-one-dual-boiler-pid-wt-wc.html), the model without soft preinfusion.

But I have a question about preinfusion. Is 'normal' preinfusion still possible on the Crem One I plan to buy? For example on the Expobar Brewtus IV you could lift the handle 45 degrees and start preinfusion. Ofcourse I know this is something different than soft preinfusion, but still. I was just wondering if this is still possible on the Crem One.

Furthermore BellaBarista told me the updated version they sell (from next week on) of the Crem One, has a new pressure valve and updated firmware. So, like you said, they really listen to their customers


----------



## KevinCoffee

Abdullah said:


> First of all...
> 
> Thank you dave for your review i watched the video and read the blog...
> 
> I did ordered Crem One - Dual Boiler PID R GSP WT/WC from bellabarista yesterday and it will arrive soon..
> 
> My question is : can i adjust boiler Bar pressure and steam bar pressure from the Oled screen?
> 
> If not where is the screw that adjust it?
> 
> (If you can show it by a picture itbwill ve great)


 I am curious how you like the machine! Could you maybe also write a review? Because there are not many (only one from @DavecUK, which is great by the way).


----------



## DavecUK

KevinCoffee said:


> I am curious how you like the machine! Could you maybe also write a review? Because there are not many (only one from @DavecUK, which is great by the way).


 Use the software, oled screen. GSP, QSP and profiles can all be controlled in the software, leave the max pressure as it is, dont touch expansion valve or bypass.


----------



## KevinCoffee

DavecUK said:


> Use the software, oled screen. GSP, QSP and profiles can all be controlled in the software, leave the max pressure as it is, dont touch expansion valve or bypass.


 Yes, but the version that I want to buy ('just' the 2 boiler version) doesn't have profiles and soft preinfusion etc. That's why I was wondering about the manual preinfusion, like on the Expobar Brewtus IV.


----------



## Rob1

You're talking about using line pressure with plumbed in rotary pumps? Or I guess whatever is in a pre-heated HX....

Pre-infusion is built into full E61 groups. Without being plumbed in just lifting the lever half way doesn't do anything (aside from maybe let a little dribble out of a HX).


----------



## KevinCoffee

Rob1 said:


> You're talking about using line pressure with plumbed in rotary pumps? Or I guess whatever is in a pre-heated HX....
> 
> Pre-infusion is built into full E61 groups. Without being plumbed in just lifting the lever half way doesn't do anything (aside from maybe let a little dribble out of a HX).


 I'm a beginner, so thanks for the information! Learned something new again 

So, if I understand it correctly, every full E61 group has preinfusion?


----------



## DavecUK

I have not tested the standard dual boiler but the pump has an adjustable bypass, so pressure adjustment should be straightforward,.


----------



## Abdullah

DavecUK said:


> I have not tested the standard dual boiler but the pump has an adjustable bypass, so pressure adjustment should be straightforward,.


 So that's mean you cannot adjust boiler pressure and make it on level 9 max?


----------



## DavecUK

Abdullah said:


> So that's mean you cannot adjust boiler pressure and make it on level 9 max?


 No, it does not, it means you can.


----------



## KevinCoffee

@DavecUK Thanks again for the information! Based on your experiences , would you say: you can buy now or would you say: wait a bit so they can fix all (little) errors? Especially because only the high end model comes with a USB-connection. So future firmware updates are only possible for this model.


----------



## DavecUK

The top two models have a USB port I believe on the one down from mine it's inside the machine. If the specific model you are looking at it doesn't have a USB port then I don't know, with anything you buy there is always the chance of an update I suppose.

On my review. There is a table showing the 4 new machines....which one exactly are you buying....if it's the vibration pump one then I don't think it has a USB port inside and with *a vibration pump *then pressure is adjusted using the expansion valve, which on mine and presumably yours is behind the drip tray accessible via a porthole.

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2019/12/16/crem-one-2b/


----------



## KevinCoffee

True, there is always a chance an updates. But sometimes you can have the feeling 'wait for the second generation'. But based on your review I guess I could buy it now, because it's a great value for money machine.

I'm asking because there is only one review, and that's yours 

The model I intend to buy, doesn't have USB (the second machine in the table, the one with vibration pump).


----------



## Jony

I would be tempted to buy the one with USB update, seems a great thing to have. At least you only buy once.


----------



## KevinCoffee

Jony said:


> I would be tempted to buy the one with USB update, seems a great thing to have.


 Yes, me too, but it costs 400 euros more (not only for the USB). But it's true, it's more future proof with USB.


----------



## Jony

That is a little steep. 😎


----------



## Rob1

For an extra 400 euros you get pressure profiling and a usb updates? Or do all of the machines do pressure profiling?


----------



## KevinCoffee

Rob1 said:


> For an extra 400 euros you get pressure profiling and a usb updates? Or do all of the machines do pressure profiling?


 I think pressure profiling and USB are only available on the most expensive version (according to the online manual). This version even costs €2499.


----------



## Abdullah

DavecUK said:


> No, it does not, it means you can.


 Can you tell us how please?


----------



## DavecUK

Abdullah said:


> Can you tell us how please?


 I have already said how, check earlier in the thread.


----------



## Abdullah

DavecUK said:


> I have already said how, check earlier in the thread.


 I'm sorry but i read the whole thread two times and didn't find it...


----------



## DavecUK

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/49659-crem-one-2b-r-lfpp/?do=embed&comment=743290&embedComment=743290&embedDo=findComment


----------



## KevinCoffee

I have to correct something. All Crem One machines have a USB connection. Only the most expensive model has a USB on the outside. The other machines have it inside, so you can update the firmware. This can be done by yourself (if you are a bit technical) or it can be done where you bought the machine.


----------



## DavecUK

KevinCoffee said:


> I have to correct something. All Crem One machines have a USB connection. Only the most expensive model has a USB on the outside. The other machines have it inside, so you can update the firmware. This can be done by yourself (if you are a bit technical) or it can be done where you bought the machine.


 I was told only the top 2 models, have you had this confirmed and by who?


----------



## KevinCoffee

The seller from a Dutch coffeeshop (very good reputation). But ofcourse he could be wrong too, because in the shop he only had model 3.

@DavecUK Is it possible no one has ever seen the second model (just the two boiler type)?


----------



## DavecUK

KevinCoffee said:


> The seller from a Dutch coffeeshop (very good reputation). But ofcourse he could be wrong too, because in the shop he only had model 3.
> 
> @DavecUK Is it possible no one has ever seen the second model (just the two boiler type)?


 Possible I suppose. I really only looked at the LFPP top of the range model and expended my energies on that and it's software to drive the improvements needed.


----------



## KevinCoffee

DavecUK said:


> Possible I suppose. I really only looked at the LFPP top of the range model and expended my energies on that and it's software to drive the improvements needed.


 I totally understand. I also emailed Creme, hope they reply soon. I will let you know here!


----------



## Moonie

To my understanding the Crem one allows the user to pressure profile which introduces lot's of options but from what I have read and understood it does not allow the user to adjust the temperature. Is this correct?

Secondly does this matter? Trying to compare it to let's say "entry" level dual boilers that give you "full" temperature control via PID but no capacity to pressure profile. As someone new to this I am trying to work out which is or should or could be more important to me.

I am roasting my own beans (popcorn maker and inconsistent) but like the idea of been able to tinker to get a better espresso.

I can see the repeatability of the profile using the crem one as an advantage when compared to something like the Bianca and it's paddle.

Any thoughts on if the GSP model would be "enough" of a step up from a Hx to prevent further desires to upgrade.


----------



## Jmac

A query about the Crem. Given the heady mix of electronics and mechanics, any views on how reliable is it likely to be long term? I live in Scotland, a long way from any Crem stockists and would probably rely on a delivery. The shipping costs each time a fault of some sort developed could be a pain? Would I just be safer with a less fancy but possibly simpler and therefore more robust machine?


----------



## alexcs

Hi Dave I just took delivery of an r-lfpp in Australia, I can't seem to find firmware on the Crem site. Any ideas on where to source?


----------



## DavecUK

From your retailer, but depends on the version as you're probably up to date.


----------



## Rob1

Moonie said:


> To my understanding the Crem one allows the user to pressure profile which introduces lot's of options but from what I have read and understood it does not allow the user to adjust the temperature. Is this correct?
> 
> Secondly does this matter? Trying to compare it to let's say "entry" level dual boilers that give you "full" temperature control via PID but no capacity to pressure profile. As someone new to this I am trying to work out which is or should or could be more important to me.
> 
> I am roasting my own beans (popcorn maker and inconsistent) but like the idea of been able to tinker to get a better espresso.
> 
> I can see the repeatability of the profile using the crem one as an advantage when compared to something like the Bianca and it's paddle.
> 
> Any thoughts on if the GSP model would be "enough" of a step up from a Hx to prevent further desires to upgrade.


 I think the PID is adjustable, you're just locked out of the advanced settings? Check the review again I can't remember.


----------



## DavecUK

Of course the temp can be adjusted, it's a couple of button presses on the main user menu.


----------



## alexcs

DavecUK said:


> From your retailer, but depends on the version as you're probably up to date.


 Thanks Dave, and thanks for your videos they have been very helpful


----------



## KevinCoffee

DavecUK said:


> Possible I suppose. I really only looked at the LFPP top of the range model and expended my energies on that and it's software to drive the improvements needed.


 I just got confirmed by Crem that all models have USB. Only the top (most expensive) model has one on the outside, the rest of the models have a USB connection inside.


----------



## DavecUK

KevinCoffee said:


> I just got confirmed by Crem that all models have USB. Only the top (most expensive) model has one on the outside, the rest of the models have a USB connection inside.


 Good to know, I only looked at the LFPP model.


----------



## alexcs

Dave I have been having trouble getting an answer from my retailer on firmware, could you confirm latest version?

Mine indicates 1.07 on startup.

I notice in some of your videos you start the shot at 1.2bar, on my machine I don't seem to be able to go lower than 2.0bar on the dial.

Is there a trick to this, or is a more recent firmware allowing a lower pressure? Or is it only possible via importing manually edited profiles?

cheers alex


----------



## KevinCoffee

alexcs said:


> Dave I have been having trouble getting an answer from my retailer on firmware, could you confirm latest version?
> 
> Mine indicates 1.07 on startup.
> 
> I notice in some of your videos you start the shot at 1.2bar, on my machine I don't seem to be able to go lower than 2.0bar on the dial.
> 
> Is there a trick to this, or is a more recent firmware allowing a lower pressure? Or is it only possible via importing manually edited profiles?
> 
> cheers alex


 I believe 1.09 is the latest version. According to the online manual of the Crem One.


----------



## DavecUK

KevinCoffee said:


> I believe 1.09 is the latest version. According to the online manual of the Crem One.


 That's correct 1.09 is the latest version and has a correction/improvement to GSP as well as other minor changes.

The firmware changed to a minimum value of 2.0 bar for technical reasons.


----------



## alexcs

DavecUK said:


> That's correct 1.09 is the latest version and has a correction/improvement to GSP as well as other minor changes.
> 
> The firmware changed to a minimum value of 2.0 bar for technical reasons.


 thanks Kevin and Dave appreciate the info. Managed to get the firmware, all installed correctly.

Dave what was the change to the GSP intended to solve, I can see they mention voltage but how was that affecting the operation?

Regarding the minimum bar at 2.0, was that driven by issues preinfusing down to 1.2?

The other query was around max steam temp, does the machine have theoretical headroom to increase, or has it been designed for 125deg max? I personally find the pressure fine to make great milk, more curiosity.

Cheers


----------



## DavecUK

alexcs said:


> thanks Kevin and Dave appreciate the info. Managed to get the firmware, all installed correctly.
> 
> 1. Dave what was the change to the GSP intended to solve, I can see they mention voltage but how was that affecting the operation?
> 
> 2. Regarding the minimum bar at 2.0, was that driven by issues preinfusing down to 1.2?
> 
> 3. The other query was around max steam temp, does the machine have theoretical headroom to increase, or has it been designed for 125deg max? I personally find the pressure fine to make great milk, more curiosity.
> 
> Cheers


 1. This was to extend and improve the function of GSP, I just found it irritating that it originally went from a starting voltage e.g. to max (24V) over a period of time you set. It worked well but with a bit of thought I felt it could be better. By setting a stating voltage and an end voltage, you don't have to end up at 10 bar and it's even quieter. Just makes the whole function better and makes full use of the control systems capabilities.

2. Partly. Preinfusion much below 2 bar has little extra merit and is super difficult to control but can introduce problems. You have the ability of the brew boilers boilers own push at zero bar and this can cause small voids (this disturbs adaptive pressure profiling because the flow meter is before the boilers) and if the steam boiler is on and generating 1.35 bar pressure....so is the brew boiler preheat system, so pressures lower than that are somewhat overridden, again not good for adaptive pressure profiling because voids can form in the brew boiler. I raised it as an potential issue, they chose to go for 2.0 bar, me personally I would probably have gone for 1.5 bar, but they can always change it in future I guess. Perhaps they copied the Vesuvius and went for 2 bar (which also has preheat) but that was me playing safe back in the day.

3. That's a great question, the answer is I don't know because my test machine does not actually have a safety valve on the steam boiler it uses the other 2 forms of protection deemed OK by the EU regulations. I "think" the limit stat is probably around 145, could be higher but I couldn't tell because they are shrouded with what looks like heat shrink. *I didn't worry about it because 125C is fine* for very large boilers like that and the cooler you can run them the better when everything is together in the case including electronics. *All UK machines have a safety valve at my insistence, so the limit might well be whatever pressure that valve is rated to?*

The real exception on steam pressures is the little Lelit Elizabeth, you can crank that up to a blistering 145C (almost 3 bar), I keep mine at a laughable 140C which is just around 3 bar... If you open the steam wand fully and leave it...the Elizabeth stops steaming at the same pressure other machines start steaming and only because of a boiler autofill 🤣The only reason I don't mind running it so hot is the steam boiler is tiny 600 ml (so doesn't give off as much heat) and located in one corner of the machine well away from the autofill box (which is at the base on the opposite corner) and the LCC with it's chip and electronics is in a completely different compartment and again unaffected. Elizabeth is the only machine where I don't care if I leave the steam boiler on because even with both boilers on it uses less power than an E61 machine with only the brew boiler on!


----------



## alexcs

DavecUK said:


> 1. This was to extend and improve the function of GSP, I just found it irritating that it originally went from a starting voltage e.g. to max (24V) over a period of time you set. It worked well but with a bit of thought I felt it could be better. By setting a stating voltage and an end voltage, you don't have to end up at 10 bar and it's even quieter. Just makes the whole function better and makes full use of the control systems capabilities.


 Ok thanks that makes sense - I'm not sure if this is tied to another question which is when using either GSP or non-GSP shot methods (no dial use) can you specify a max bar via this voltage adj? I think one of the missing features is being able to set a max bar for these shots rather than let it run to max system pressure. Does this voltage adjust allow you do this in a roundabout way, or is it only for the preinfusion part of these shots? What are the chances of this both practically and Crem actually bothering implementing this feature?



> 2. Partly. Preinfusion much below 2 bar has little extra merit and is super difficult to control but can introduce problems. You have the ability of the brew boilers boilers own push at zero bar and this can cause small voids (this disturbs adaptive pressure profiling because the flow meter is before the boilers) and if the steam boiler is on and generating 1.35 bar pressure....so is the brew boiler preheat system, so pressures lower than that are somewhat overridden, again not good for adaptive pressure profiling because voids can form in the brew boiler. I raised it as an potential issue, they chose to go for 2.0 bar, me personally I would probably have gone for 1.5 bar, but they can always change it in future I guess. Perhaps they copied the Vesuvius and went for 2 bar (which also has preheat) but that was me playing safe back in the day.


 Makes sense



> 3. That's a great question, the answer is I don't know because my test machine does not actually have a safety valve on the steam boiler it uses the other 2 forms of protection deemed OK by the EU regulations. I "think" the limit stat is probably around 145, could be higher but I couldn't tell because they are shrouded with what looks like heat shrink. *I didn't worry about it because 125C is fine* for very large boilers like that and the cooler you can run them the better when everything is together in the case including electronics. *All UK machines have a safety valve at my insistence, so the limit might well be whatever pressure that valve is rated to?*


 I'm in Australia, it seems mine does have this valve also, and it vents inside the case - one of the only things I can really criticise, it would have been nice if this was plumbed into the drip area or similar to reduce moisture in the case. I have noticed moisture on the underside of the trip dray during use, unsure where is it coming from.



> The real exception on steam pressures is the little Lelit Elizabeth, you can crank that up to a blistering 145C (almost 3 bar), I keep mine at a laughable 140C which is just around 3 bar... If you open the steam wand fully and leave it...the Elizabeth stops steaming at the same pressure other machines start steaming and only because of a boiler autofill 🤣The only reason I don't mind running it so hot is the steam boiler is tiny 600 ml (so doesn't give off as much heat) and located in one corner of the machine well away from the autofill box (which is at the base on the opposite corner) and the LCC with it's chip and electronics is in a completely different compartment and again unaffected. Elizabeth is the only machine where I don't care if I leave the steam boiler on because even with both boilers on it uses less power than an E61 machine with only the brew boiler on!


 Many people want 2bar steam these days and don't even consider machines with less, is good steam more than just a pressure figure? boiler size, tip holes etc?

Thanks for your responses, very informative. I'd like to see this machine get the attention it deserves so the more info available to people the better. Ive christened mine Big Suse, its my favourite thing in the house now


----------



## DavecUK

alexcs said:


> 1. Ok thanks that makes sense - I'm not sure if this is tied to another question which is when using either GSP or non-GSP shot methods (no dial use) can you specify a max bar via this voltage adj? I think one of the missing features is being able to set a max bar for these shots rather than let it run to max system pressure. Does this voltage adjust allow you do this in a roundabout way, or is it only for the preinfusion part of these shots? What are the chances of this both practically and Crem actually bothering implementing this feature?
> 
> 2. I'm in Australia, it seems mine does have this valve also, and it vents inside the case - one of the only things I can really criticise, it would have been nice if this was plumbed into the drip area or similar to reduce moisture in the case. I have noticed moisture on the underside of the trip dray during use, unsure where is it coming from.
> 
> 3. Many people want 2bar steam these days and don't even consider machines with less, is good steam more than just a pressure figure? boiler size, tip holes etc?
> 
> Thanks for your responses, very informative. I'd like to see this machine get the attention it deserves so the more info available to people the better. Ive christened mine Big Suse, its my favourite thing in the house now


 1. No because the GSP system is completely independent of the profiling system which uses the pressure sensor and it should stay that way as a fault in one will generally leave the other operational. You can limit pressure by limiting the max voltage.

2. You are talking about the vacuum breaker...as for the drip tray moisture I've no idea...photos help. If you want to know if your machine has a safety valve take the top plate off and photo the internals, you can only tell by looking.

3. Many people don't know very much. You are correct to assume good steam is a function of more than just a pressure figure. A lot of commercial machines with 10 litre+ boilers run at 1 bar or less.


----------



## alexcs

I tried adjusting the voltage, it does work during the preinfusion but then spikes up to full voltage for the rest of the shot (for me anyway).

Would be nice to have control over the whole shot until handle is dropped ie, GSP for 15 seconds, ramp up to x bar max derived from voltage max - for non-dial shots only. Could this be achieved with firmware update?

I suppose at that point you might as well just use a set profile that could achieve the same thing, but I can also see the value in the walk up shot being set to a max bar, whether GSP is on or not.


----------



## DavecUK

alexcs said:


> I tried adjusting the voltage, it does work during the preinfusion but then spikes up to full voltage for the rest of the shot (for me anyway).
> 
> Would be nice to have control over the whole shot until handle is dropped ie, GSP for 15 seconds, ramp up to x bar max derived from voltage max - for non-dial shots only. Could this be achieved with firmware update?
> 
> I suppose at that point you might as well just use a set profile that could achieve the same thing, but I can also see the value in the walk up shot being set to a max bar, whether GSP is on or not.


 They were meant to have fixed that, give me a day or so to check it?


----------



## Will Lait

Great review - thank you - a really helpful review.

I'm on the edge of buying this machine - very very close tot he edge just need a slight push!  Now looking for a grinder.


----------



## Aamz23

Excuse my ignorance but is the only major difference with this model The vibration pump vs the rotary pump?

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/crem-one-dual-boiler-pid-wt-wc.html


----------



## DavecUK

Aamz23 said:


> Excuse my ignorance but is the only major difference with this model The vibration pump vs the rotary pump?
> 
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/crem-one-dual-boiler-pid-wt-wc.html


 Err, no....but I have never reviewed it.


----------



## Aamz23

DavecUK said:


> Err, no....but I have never reviewed it.


 What are you waiting for?! Seems like a bargain at that price for a DB. Need the Dave blessing


----------



## DavecUK

Aamz23 said:


> What are you waiting for?! Seems like a bargain at that price for a DB. Need the Dave blessing


 Well for me it's just not "interesting", I'm sure it's very good and will work well... but it's just a dual boiler and doesn't need my review. There are plenty of other dual boilers you don't see me reviewing and I'm sure most of them are very good.

I prefer the new and upcoming, prototypes, the technology that's coming in 2021, or anything super interesting. Plus I'm quite busy now with a prototype arriving any day now, a little roaster and a few other tasks I have put on the back burner. I simply don't have the time or interest enough to make the time for this Crem machine at the moment..sorry.


----------



## KevinCoffee

Aamz23 said:


> Excuse my ignorance but is the only major difference with this model The vibration pump vs the rotary pump?
> 
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/crem-one-dual-boiler-pid-wt-wc.html


 I have this machine since mid June (, 2020). I never had an espressomachine before, so I can't tell if it's better than other machines.

But I think this is a very good machine for the price. So far I haven't found any downsides. A big plus is the very fast start up time. So in 20 minutes you can start making your espresso.

If there are any firmware updates, the machine can be updated via the internal USB. This can be done by yourself or your seller.

There are more differences than the rotation and rotary pump. Check the Crem One website.


----------



## ipc

DavecUK said:


> I think that's going to be different for different people, best they simply read the reviews....then they can make their own minds up what's important to them. I'll be moving onto the ECM Puristika next.... after a little reviewing break. Do need to unbox it and get it on the counter though for a few weeks familiarisation.


 Did you ever review the Puristika (don't see it on your blog). It looks *very* interesting to me. (Almost never ever steam.)


----------



## DavecUK

ipc said:


> Did you ever review the Puristika (don't see it on your blog). It looks *very* interesting to me. (Almost never ever steam.)


 No, the Puristika wasn't sent to me by ECM for a Public review, they sent it to get some engineering feedback. e.g. any issues, things they should change or redesign, temperature stability that sort of thing. It is very interesting and I wish I could review it, even just to cover what people saw at Host 2019. Unfortunately, I can't. My feedback was between the owner of ECM and me.

It's great it's small, can you imagine it with a good small hand grinder next to it...very zen and minimalist. I was surprised to see a production prototype on sale on some EU site, I suspect ECM aren't too happy about that.

I don't often steam, hence my interest in the Dualit steamer, I think someone on here was buying one, but no feedback yet?

https://www.nisbets.co.uk/dualit-cino-milk-steamer/cn452


----------



## ipc

Well that's tantalising. 

I've finally decided to upgrade from a Silvia with PID and had more or less decided on the Classika - but can't find one to buy in the UK. A smaller footprint would certainly go down well with my lovely OH.


----------



## Shum

First, thank you for the detailed review Dave.

I think about buying the CREM LFPP and saw a post in reddit where a user mentioned the auto sleep/shutdown is mandatory. I couldn't verify this with him.

Can anyone verify that there is no way to disable it? does this mean the machine will turn itself off after X hours no matter what?

I need a machine that can stay on for 16-18 hours a day..


----------



## KevinCoffee

Shum said:


> First, thank you for the detailed review Dave.
> 
> I think about buying the CREM LFPP and saw a post in reddit where a user mentioned the auto sleep/shutdown is mandatory. I couldn't verify this with him.
> 
> Can anyone verify that there is no way to disable it? does this mean the machine will turn itself off after X hours no matter what?
> 
> I need a machine that can stay on for 16-18 hours a day..


 I have the Crem One dual boiler (not the LFPP model) and there is no auto sleep or shutdown. All models have the same firmware, so there shouldn't be any difference.

Who mentioned the auto sleep and where (link)?


----------



## Shum

Thank you Kevin

Here is the user, you can see in his latest post

https://www.reddit.com/user/espressomanr/


----------



## KevinCoffee

Maybe the autosleep is mandatory in some countries, but in The Netherlands it's not. Sometimes I leave the machine on and there is absolutely no autosleep (firmware 1.09, this was the latest version in July 2020).


----------



## thi

Hi all,

I just started owning this machine and I'm a happy brewer so far. I'm owning the LFPP machine and today wanted to try to tweak some recipes that I've stored in the machine. So far, no luck though... Although the machine displays the "OK" sign after uploading nothing has changed to the settings that were already in the memory of the machine.

Exporting the recipes works just fine (EXPONE.txt is created). To rule out any typos from my side I just changed the name of recipe 1 and saved the file as IMPONE.txt. With no further files on the USB its uploaded in the machine just fine.... but nothings changed.... Anyone that has an idea what this could be? Could it be a firmware issue? There's not much to be found online about this machine yet so I though of trying my luck here.

Thanks!

Tom


----------



## DavecUK

Did you read the review, there are some examples and a video on how to do it?

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2019/12/16/crem-one-2b/

can you upload the original and modified file here.

It definitely should work and with the previous software version it did, I have not got around to uploading the new version yet...but no reason it shouldn't work.


----------



## thi

Hi Dave,

I've definitely read your thorough review (for which thanks, this was one of the reasons for considering the machine in the first place). One small difference I noticed in the txt files compared to yours on the review is the fact that my machine outputs the time in the array as well.

Also, beats me how, but I just tried it again and it seems to work now... so maybe its just you commenting back that helped to solve this 

Anyways, looking forward to experiment more with the machine and perhaps exchanging interesting recipes in the future when mastering the settings a bit more.

EDIT: Just tried to alter the recipe once more, and the first time I uploaded it in the machine nothing changed. Trying to upload it a second time (with the USB still in) it worked however.

Thank you,

Tom


----------



## DavecUK

It's my magical way with machines... 😉


----------



## Jony

Machine whisperer.


----------



## ErolMintie

DavecUK said:


> Did you read the review, there are some examples and a video on how to do it?
> 
> https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2019/12/16/crem-one-2b/
> 
> can you upload the original and modified file here.
> 
> It definitely should work and with the previous software version it did, I have not got around to uploading the new version yet...but no reason it shouldn't work.


 Thanks for your videos and write-ups Dave - just received a Crem lfpp today. Upgraded from a 10yr old Giotto. Instruction manual and reseller not much help towards the first shot. The Recipes are blank out of the box. Your youtube setting a profile helped a lot! Was wondering with all the chat about firmware where to download the latest version? Have played with the USB today too which was easy to adjust recipes. Looking fwd to setting up more profiles asap. Its a beautifully made machine by the looks from day 1 usage..


----------



## DavecUK

ErolMintie said:


> Thanks for your videos and write-ups Dave - just received a Crem lfpp today. Upgraded from a 10yr old Giotto. Instruction manual and reseller not much help towards the first shot. The Recipes are blank out of the box. Your youtube setting a profile helped a lot! Was wondering with all the chat about firmware where to download the latest version? Have played with the USB today too which was easy to adjust recipes. Looking fwd to setting up more profiles asap. Its a beautifully made machine by the looks from day 1 usage..


 Yes, I have to actually do an update on it and get it back on the bench again. There have been a few changes since my review. I want to try and produce a bit of hand manual profile editing guidance and I'm also pressing them to produce an update containing "timed stage" pressure profiling, which would give them the standard type of profiling used by other machines. Just another feature I believe they can add quite easily.

Mine is a very early machine (pre-production if you like) and lacks some changes, so they may even be swapping out that unit...I'm waiting to hear.


----------



## CoffeeTim

Hi@DavecUK ,

I've watched all the videos and read your review and we have already have some comments and replies in your youtube channel.

I am very interested in the Crem ONE LFPP due to the tech and price.

But I have a few questions.
1-One ofnyour video explained pressure profiling by volumetric. Does this means the ploted graph is Pressure vs volume? example run 3 bar for 5ml, then raise the volume at X rate within 10ml and continue 9 bar for the next 10ml.

And after that, will the extractiom stop even when i doesn't pull down the lever?

2- Will this auto volumetric control available when doing QSP and GSP shots?

3- Some ppl kept telling me that flow profiling is more important. But due to the incomprsssible nature of liquid, Doesn't Pressure a difect function of flow?

Tim

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

CoffeeTim said:


> Hi@DavecUK ,
> 
> I've watched all the videos and read your review and we have already have some comments and replies in your youtube channel.
> 
> I am very interested in the Crem ONE LFPP due to the tech and price.
> 
> But I have a few questions.
> 1-One ofnyour video explained pressure profiling by volumetric. Does this means the ploted graph is Pressure vs volume? example run 3 bar for 5ml, then raise the volume at X rate within 10ml and continue 9 bar for the next 10ml.
> 
> And after that, will the extractiom stop even when i doesn't pull down the lever?
> 
> 2- Will this auto volumetric control available when doing QSP and GSP shots?
> 
> 3- Some ppl kept telling me that flow profiling is more important. But due to the incomprsssible nature of liquid, Doesn't Pressure a difect function of flow?
> 
> Tim
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


 1. Yes and Yes

2. No, but the volume dispensed is displayed, if I remember correctly.

3. Sort of, It's not quite as straightforward in an espresso machine.

e.g. if the coffee puck becomes more permeable (which it does as the shot progresses), the pressure will drop for a given flow rate. A pressure profiler will increase flow to maintain the pressure.

or

If the coffee puck is too fine, for a given flow, the pressure will rise to the maximum the pump is set to deliver....a pressure profiler will reduce flow to maintain the set pressure.


----------



## CoffeeTim

DavecUK said:


> 1. Yes and Yes
> 2. No, but the volume dispensed is displayed, if I remember correctly.
> 3. Sort of, It's not quite as straightforward in an espresso machine.
> e.g. if the coffee puck becomes more permeable (which it does as the shot progresses), the pressure will drop for a given flow rate. A pressure profiler will increase flow to maintain the pressure.
> or
> If the coffee puck is too fine, for a given flow, the pressure will rise to the maximum the pump is set to deliver....a pressure profiler will reduce flow to maintain the set pressure.


Thank you very much Davec. Appreciate your explanation. Makes perfect sense.

Because in my country, the distributor of Crem One happens to be my friend. And it's from him, I know about this brand and interested in it the moment I learnt more about it.

Unfortunately, there are very very review in the internet and most of it are meaningless. Until I saw yours.

1-Juat curious, the portafilter I saw in some of the unboxing video are different from the one in their broucher. I meant the spout. I wonder which one they actually give.

2-Another question is, how long does it take to heat up to brew ready including the E61 and portafilter

3-How about the power consumption

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

CoffeeTim said:


> Thank you very much Davec. Appreciate your explanation. Makes perfect sense.
> 
> Because in my country, the distributor of Crem One happens to be my friend. And it's from him, I know about this brand and interested in it the moment I learnt more about it.
> 
> Unfortunately, there are very very review in the internet and most of it are meaningless. Until I saw yours.
> 
> 1-Juat curious, the portafilter I saw in some of the unboxing video are different from the one in their broucher. I meant the spout. I wonder which one they actually give.
> 
> 2-Another question is, how long does it take to heat up to brew ready including the E61 and portafilter
> 
> 3-How about the power consumption
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


 1. Mine was an early one, perhaps they changed things

2. About 30m slightly faster than other dual boilers because of the very efficient thermosyphon (hence the very low offset of 7C)

3. E61 groups radiate the same power from all machines, about 75W, and the service boiler should normally be off unless you're needing to steam milk. So comparable to other dual boiler machines. So 13 hours per day for around a kW unless steaming milk and then a little more to warm up the steam boiler.


----------



## CoffeeTim

DavecUK said:


> 1. Mine was an early one, perhaps they changed things
> 2. About 30m slightly faster than other dual boilers because of the very efficient thermosyphon (hence the very low offset of 7C)
> 3. E61 groups radiate the same power from all machines, about 75W, and the service boiler should normally be off unless you're needing to steam milk. So comparable to other dual boiler machines. So 13 hours per day for around a kW unless steaming milk and then a little more to warm up the steam boiler.


thanks. i'll check put for now. I'll come back to you when I think of more questions.

Thanks again.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## CoffeeTim

@DavecUK, I've read through your review again and I realized you've mentioned you found yourself loving the GSP more than you thought you would.

I also learnt that the GSP is completely independant from the LFPP(Pressure vs Volume). What about the GSP? How is it programmed? Is it time based or volumetric based?

I am abit confuse in thr voltage input area.

In your, review you also mentioned that not to adjust the brew pressure on the OPV. What about the other GSP version of Crem One where pressure profiling is not available. Should we adjust the brew pressure with the OPV?

Thanks.

Tim

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

GSP uses a start and end voltage ramped over a set period of time, up to 20s.

With any rotary pumped version, pressure is set on the pumps bypass. Accessible under the machine on the right hand side about half way in.


----------



## CoffeeTim

DavecUK said:


> GSP uses a start and end voltage ramped over a set period of time, up to 20s.
> With any rotary pumped version, pressure is set on the pumps bypass. Accessible under the machine on the right hand side about half way in.


So it sounds like a linear increment. thanks for the explanation. so my understand now is, on the GSP, the pressure will increase to the set value up to 20s(Or whatever time set) and continue until we pull down the level.

Or will it ramp up to max V and continue till we pull down the lever?

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

It should reach the max V you set and remain at that level of until you lower the lever.. The latest software (Apr 20) should have bought that change in. I will be retesting in in the next week or so.


----------



## CoffeeTim

DavecUK said:


> It should reach the max V you set and remain at that level of until you lower the lever.. The latest software (Apr 20) should have bought that change in. I will be retesting in in the next week or so.


That's great. Will wait for your next review for the time being.

Because there are just too little reviews on the Crem machines in English in the internet as reference, I have yet to conclude what I should be getting.

But currently, I've short listed my future upgrade to be Crem One Lfpp or Gsp, Lelit Bianca at the same time keeping an eye on the VBM domobar super 2020.

Thanks again for the effort Dave. appreciate it.

Tim

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## CoffeeTim

HI@DavecUK , Do you think the Lelit flow control device would fit the Crem one?? I'm just thinking of installing a flow control vavle if i am gettig the GSP or Normal Dual boiler Crem One.

Thanks.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

CoffeeTim said:


> HI@DavecUK , Do you think the Lelit flow control device would fit the Crem one?? I'm just thinking of installing a flow control vavle if i am gettig the GSP or Normal Dual boiler Crem One.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


 It probably would, I have never tried.


----------



## CoffeeTim

DavecUK said:


> It probably would, I have never tried.


Thanks Dave.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## KevinCoffee

DavecUK said:


> It probably would, I have never tried.


 Curious if this works, as I have the normal dual boiler Crem One!


----------



## CoffeeTim

KevinCoffee said:


> Curious if this works, as I have the normal dual boiler Crem One!


Hi@KevinCoffee, how do you like the CREM ONE V-Pump? How's the temperature stability, pressure and extraction?

Can you show me the portafilter Of your CREM ONE?

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## KevinCoffee

CoffeeTim said:


> Hi@KevinCoffee, how do you like the CREM ONE V-Pump? How's the temperature stability, pressure and extraction?
> 
> Can you show me the portafilter Of your CREM ONE?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


 I have to admit this is my first espresso machine. So I can only share my experience with the Crem One (I can't compare with other machines).

The temperature stability according to the display is stable, varies 0.5 degrees. And the espresso always has the same temperature (tested by tasting since June).

I think I can't say anything about the pressure and extraction, what exactly do you want to know?

The portafilter is just a normal (e61) one I guess? I replaced the baskets and shower with an IMS one.


----------



## CoffeeTim

KevinCoffee said:


> I have to admit this is my first espresso machine. So I can only share my experience with the Crem One (I can't compare with other machines).
> The temperature stability according to the display is stable, varies 0.5 degrees. And the espresso always has the same temperature (tested by tasting since June).
> I think I can't say anything about the pressure and extraction, what exactly do you want to know?
> The portafilter is just a normal (e61) one I guess? I replaced the baskets and shower with an IMS one.


Thanks for your reply. I want to see the spouts of the PF.

Anyway, that's not important. Any issue you have encounter so far?

How's the noise level of the vibratory pump?

I've learnt that Expobae redesigned the E61 shower head to create a better preinfusion, How's the preinfusion pressure like? Do the spike up immediately or it goes up gradually?

Thanks dude. Just answer whatever you can.

Appreciate it.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## KevinCoffee

CoffeeTim said:


> Thanks for your reply. I want to see the spouts of the PF.
> 
> Anyway, that's not important. Any issue you have encounter so far?
> 
> How's the noise level of the vibratory pump?
> 
> I've learnt that Expobae redesigned the E61 shower head to create a better preinfusion, How's the preinfusion pressure like? Do the spike up immediately or it goes up gradually?
> 
> Thanks dude. Just answer whatever you can.
> 
> Appreciate it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


 I made a video, that's much easier:






The noise is ok, you can hear a few pots and pans moving, so if you have a stable underground, the noise would be a bit less (and in the back you can hear a cat, thats not the Crem ).

Problems, so far only one: a broken on/off switch after 3 months. This was replaced free of charge (of course). But things like this shouldn't happen and disappointed me because it's a machine of 1700 euro's.


----------



## CoffeeTim

KevinCoffee said:


> I made a video, that's much easier:
> The noise is ok, you can hear a few pots and pans moving, so if you have a stable underground, the noise would be a bit less (and in the back you can hear a cat, thats not the Crem
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ).
> Problems, so far only one: a broken on/off switch after 3 months. This was replaced free of charge (of course). But things like this shouldn't happen and disappointed me because it's a machine of 1700 euro's.


Thanks alot. A video speaks more than a thousand words. Looks like the pressure ramps up gradually. Just as the expobar's design of pre-infusion intended.

Which switch was broken?

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## CoffeeTim

CoffeeTim said:


> Thanks alot. A video speaks more than a thousand words. Looks like the pressure ramps up gradually. Just as the expobar's design of pre-infusion intended.
> 
> Which switch was broken?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


Sorry. Just reread your reply. It was the on/off switch. Thanks.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## CoffeeTim

@DavecUK, from your experience. Which one do you think will be better on the Pressure profiling..? Time base pressure profiling or Volume base pressure profiling.?

Thanks


----------



## DavecUK

CoffeeTim said:


> @DavecUK, from your experience. Which one do you think will be better on the Pressure profiling..? Time base pressure profiling or Volume base pressure profiling.?
> 
> Thanks


 A machine that has both would be ideal...So I don't know for sure. Instinctively, volume based seems to make a lot of sense.


----------



## CoffeeTim

That's what I thought. Because the extraction will be same. Thanks Dave.


----------



## DavecUK

CoffeeTim said:


> That's what I thought. Because the extraction will be same. Thanks Dave.


 That's not quite what I said...If a timed stage shot ran the same volume of water through at every pressure stage as a volume based shot....then yes.

However pucks are never 100% consistent, so "adaptive profiling" will ensure that the same volume goes through at the pressure requested....before it moves to the next stage. So it's the time that varies.



Timed Stage Profiling - variable = Volume at each pressure stage and length of final profile stages (if you have to stop it early)


Adaptive (Volume based) Pressure profiling - variable = time in each pressure stage to achieve a certain volume...length of profile increases or reduces automatically.


----------



## CoffeeTim

DavecUK said:


> That's not quite what I said...If a timed stage shot ran the same volume of water through at every pressure stage as a volume based shot....then yes.
> 
> However pucks are never 100% consistent, so "adaptive profiling" will ensure that the same volume goes through at the pressure requested....before it moves to the next stage. So it's the time that varies.
> 
> 
> 
> Timed Stage Profiling - variable = Volume at each pressure stage and length of final profile stages (if you have to stop it early)
> 
> 
> Adaptive (Volume based) Pressure profiling - variable = time in each pressure stage to achieve a certain volume...length of profile increases or reduces automatically.


 thanks... Understood... The same volume of liquid will pass through the puck at the same pressure setting. Which I think makes more sense than time base.

Also, I love the daily wake up and sleep feature. how many time of wake up and sleep I can program daily...?

Another question is, If I program it as let say, Monday, Wednesday and Friday wake up at 6am and sleep at 8am. Remaining day wake up at 8am and sleep at 10am. After the machine sleep, are they on standby mode where the boilers continue to preheat or it totally shuts off electrically. So when I manually press any button at random time, it'll wake up and reheat.

Though I love this machine's design and features, but there are still extremely limited reviews I can refer to especially on it's reliability.


----------



## KevinCoffee

CoffeeTim said:


> thanks... Understood... The same volume of liquid will pass through the puck at the same pressure setting. Which I think makes more sense than time base.
> 
> Also, I love the daily wake up and sleep feature. how many time of wake up and sleep I can program daily...?
> 
> Another question is, If I program it as let say, Monday, Wednesday and Friday wake up at 6am and sleep at 8am. Remaining day wake up at 8am and sleep at 10am. After the machine sleep, are they on standby mode where the boilers continue to preheat or it totally shuts off electrically. So when I manually press any button at random time, it'll wake up and reheat.
> 
> Though I love this machine's design and features, but there are still extremely limited reviews I can refer to especially on it's reliability.


 You can program one on and off per day. You can set the time per day, so Sunday wake up at 7 and off (standby) at 2200 Monday wake up at 8 and off at 2100 etc etc..

The machine goes in stand-by (just like a tv) and you can wake up the machine with any button.

About the reliability: it's a new machine delivered since June this year, so it's difficult to say. Obviously things will pop up the next couple of years, like every other machine, I guess.


----------



## CoffeeTim

KevinCoffee said:


> You can program one on and off per day. You can set the time per day, so Sunday wake up at 7 and off (standby) at 2200 Monday wake up at 8 and off at 2100 etc etc..
> 
> The machine goes in stand-by (just like a tv) and you can wake up the machine with any button.
> 
> About the reliability: it's a new machine delivered since June this year, so it's difficult to say. Obviously things will pop up the next couple of years, like every other machine, I guess.


 Thanks again. So, let say it sleeps at 10am, when I manually wake it up at 5pm, I assume it'll reboil and reheat before I can make coffee again. So, if I wake it up manually how long will it take to go back to standby..?


----------



## KevinCoffee

CoffeeTim said:


> Thanks again. So, let say it sleeps at 10am, when I manually wake it up at 5pm, I assume it'll reboil and reheat before I can make coffee again. So, if I wake it up manually how long will it take to go back to standby..?


 Yes it (of course) reboils and reheats before you can make coffee 

I don't know if I completely understand your last question. If you wake it up manually, you can switch it back manually to standby. Otherwise you have to wait for the machine to go in standby like you programmed (for example in the evening).


----------



## DavecUK

if it switches off on the timer...it's off. So the normal warm up time applies, about 30m.

I don't find low temperature ECO mode useful on espresso machines, so don't tend to use it. I covered it in my Crem Review.



> *ECO mode could be improved in a future update*. It reduces the temperature a little on the boilers to save energy. It *only *works on both boilers, when *I really don't want to step down the brew boiler temperature* to* save almost no energy*. The group takes around 10 minutes or longer (aggravated because of the heating priority issue above) to fully stabilise in temperature after coming out of ECO mode. *I would love to see a toggle between: Steam Boiler Only, Both Boilers, Brew boiler only.* This way you have the option to choose, personally I would choose steam boiler only. The best, of course, is to run with the steam boiler off unless you need it on!


----------



## CoffeeTim

KevinCoffee said:


> Yes it (of course) reboils and reheats before you can make coffee
> 
> I don't know if I completely understand your last question. If you wake it up manually, you can switch it back manually to standby. Otherwise you have to wait for the machine to go in standby like you programmed (for example in the evening).


 Ok. Say if i program it to wake up at 6am and sleep at 8am for Monday. After it sleeps, I decided to make coffee ar 2pm so I wake it up and make coffee. Will it automatically go back to sleep after not touching it for a duration of time..?


----------



## DavecUK

CoffeeTim said:


> Ok. Say if i program it to wake up at 6am and sleep at 8am for Monday. After it sleeps, I decided to make coffee ar 2pm so I wake it up and make coffee. Will it automatically go back to sleep after not touching it for a duration of time..?


 No


----------



## KevinCoffee

CoffeeTim said:


> Ok. Say if i program it to wake up at 6am and sleep at 8am for Monday. After it sleeps, I decided to make coffee ar 2pm so I wake it up and make coffee. Will it automatically go back to sleep after not touching it for a duration of time..?


 I never tried this, but I think not. I think you have to use the manual standby button then.


----------



## CoffeeTim

KevinCoffee said:


> I never tried this, but I think not. I think you have to use the manual standby button then.


Ok. thanks. good to know.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## KevinCoffee

CoffeeTim said:


> Ok. thanks. good to know.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


 I think in the end no machine is perfect, probably the Rocket and Lelit etc. machines have their issues too.

From my experience I can only tell the Crem does the job. The espresso is consistent and has the same temperature. The little display with shottimer is a nice add on, same for the on/off programming. And the price compared to (for example) a Rocket is unbeatable.


----------



## CoffeeTim

KevinCoffee said:


> I think in the end no machine is perfect, probably the Rocket and Lelit etc. machines have their issues too.
> From my experience I can only tell the Crem does the job. The espresso is consistent and has the same temperature. The little display with shottimer is a nice add on, same for the on/off programming. And the price compared to (for example) a Rocket is unbeatable.


Yes... Thanks.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

KevinCoffee said:


> I think in the end no machine is perfect, probably the Rocket and Lelit etc. machines have their issues too.
> 
> From my experience I can only tell the Crem does the job. The espresso is consistent and has the same temperature. The little display with shottimer is a nice add on, same for the on/off programming. And the price compared to (for example) a Rocket is unbeatable.


 I certainly enjoyed using it and will be moving it back onto the bench over the next few days.


----------



## CoffeeTim

DavecUK said:


> I certainly enjoyed using it and will be moving it back onto the bench over the next few days.


Good to know. Will keep an eye on your review.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

CoffeeTim said:


> Good to know. Will keep an eye on your review.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


 It's going to be more of a catch up, probably mostly on Video.


----------



## CoffeeTim

DavecUK said:


> It's going to be more of a catch up, probably mostly on Video.


thanks. will keep an eye on your channel then.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## KevinCoffee

DavecUK said:


> I certainly enjoyed using it and will be moving it back onto the bench over the next few days.


 Oh there is one more thing I forget to mention: the Crem One portafilter is very tight, in my view other (brandless) portafilters fits better. For example my naked portafilter.

Do you have the same experience @DavecUK?


----------



## DavecUK

KevinCoffee said:


> Oh there is one more thing I forget to mention: the Crem One portafilter is very tight, in my view other (brandless) portafilters fits better. For example my naked portafilter.
> 
> Do you have the same experience @DavecUK?


 I think I mostly used my naked portafilter....don't remember them being exceptionally tight...but then I don't worry too much about having them locked to 6pm


----------



## KevinCoffee

DavecUK said:


> I think I mostly used my naked portafilter....don't remember them being exceptionally tight...but then I don't worry too much about having them locked to 6pm


 No I don't, but it 'feels' better when the portafilter is a bit less tight. Thanks for your quick reply!


----------



## CoffeeTim

KevinCoffee said:


> No I don't, but it 'feels' better when the portafilter is a bit less tight. Thanks for your quick reply!


I've learned that there are 2 types of E61 portafilter. Difference is 1mm thickness on the wings.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

CoffeeTim said:


> I've learned that there are 2 types of E61 portafilter. Difference is 1mm thickness on the wings.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


 Yes and different group gaskets


----------



## bigm

Hi,
I still have the 1.04b with many errors.
Where can I get the latest firmware?

Thanks


----------



## DavecUK

bigm said:


> Hi,
> I still have the 1.04b with many errors.
> Where can I get the latest firmware?
> 
> Thanks




Firmware file 'FHAND.bin' to install rev. 1.09 on 2 boilers versions


Installation instructions for 2 Boilers versions


Updates list for each software revision


Here is a link to the file i have stored.

Crem One dual Boiler firmware update


----------



## bigm

Hi,

Thanks has worked great.

I have only a few problems because the manual is just too poor.

1. how do I turn on the barista button again? (I miss an agenda where every diagram is explained what you can set how/where. All very poor for such a technical machine).

2. I wanted to turn off the tank so that the water comes directly from the fixed water connection. (X)
Unfortunately, this does not work. (Tank is sucked empty and then air is sucked in).

in "D" mode, when "little water" is detected, the valve often does not refill enough and it is still on "little" water and thus the pump is turned off.

3. the waste water bowl "full" recognition still does not work at 1.09.

@Crem
I would improve if you change the heating sequence so first coffee boiler then steam boiler should have priority when the steam boiler heats at the moment so that not during the frothing again the coffee boiler is preferred and the steam pressure drops unnecessarily.


----------



## StuM

I am liking the look of the crem one, I have one question does the ONE - 2B R-GSP also have the ability to provide a fixed volume of coffee like is mentioned in the review in the adaptive pressure profiling?

thanks

Stu


----------



## DavecUK

bigm said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks has worked great.
> 
> I have only a few problems because the manual is just too poor.


 All of that stuff is in the advanced menu.


----------



## Hulster

bigm said:


> 3. the waste water bowl "full" recognition still does not work at 1.09.
> 
> @Crem
> I would improve if you change the heating sequence so first coffee boiler then steam boiler should have priority when the steam boiler heats at the moment so that not during the frothing again the coffee boiler is preferred and the steam pressure drops unnecessarily.


 I have 1.09 running and it does work for me. Is the tray fully set? Did you test it with some water. You simple need to fill up until both visibible metal strips get in contact.

I don't think Crem is reading here. I have asked them for some contact specifically for this machine. No response yet.
For that I am really a bit disappointed. Without the software and some tech support this nothing more then a usual coffee machine. But the software makes this machine what it is.

And Crem is really hoping a usual dealer will support this machine? This is brand new functionality, they even may not have heard about pressure profiling. Even getting the newest firmware will not work. What should they do? Having a specfiic customer database for this machine and sending some mail to everybody if a new version has been released?
🤣

To me they have to build up a subsidary on their website. Giving access to the different firmware and some FAQ.


----------



## Hulster

@DavecUK

I've tried out to simulate a filter brew. Manually this works unexpectedly (because of the new limitation of the min pressure) quite well.

What I am doing: Using filter roast and grinding size. 10g for one 150ml cup.

Going to manual barista mode. Opening the lever for 20 ml and close after. 30 sec blooming. Going again to manual mode and fill the cup with min 2 bar pressure (about 30 sec)

The result shows really the typical properties of a filter brew. It is not perfect, but good. And not to many fines.
What I was looking for is, to make this a recipe. But that seems to be impossible with the actual (1.09) firmware.

I defined the total amount 170ml (2x 10g getting coffee wet). 20 ml need about 5 sec. So I defined the first 5 sec with the min pressure 2.0 bar. Then I set the following to 0 bar. And here starts the issue. From software perspective this seems not to be a prob. But when I leave the lever open the brew boiler is heating up for some reason. And it get really boiling. Which will develop steam and press some water. Further the recipe will not really go ahead after 30 sec where I have set the reamaining 30 entries to min pressue 20 sec.

Any idea to make this working?
It would be really great to make this a recipe. First it is a mess to need a separate timer for the blooming. Because if you close the lever any timer stops. And further more it would be great to have this fully unattended.

Overall I am very satisfied by the results of the machine. But I have bought it for pressure profiling and making it reusable recipes. After buy I've found to many limitations with the actual firmware.
Basically I am currently using 10 sec pre-infusion and the manual stuff for filter simulation.

What I am futher missing is a platform to share recipes.....


----------



## DavecUK

With adaptive profiling, there has to be flow for the profile to proceed, it's not timed stage profiling (which I hope they add sooner rather than later).

Adaptive profiling moves through the stages based on volume, but there is a way perhaps to fool it...there is also a background counter, which effectively counts so many ml per sec(I don't know how many) if there is no flow...to prevent profiles getting "stuck".

The reason I asked for the minimum pressure to be raised from Zero is because the system has preheat...and if the service boiler is on, it's going to cause voids in the brew boiler, and water from the preheat HX in the boiler to boil off into the brew boiler (it's just physics). I didn't realise for the Crem One 2B LFPP they had allowed 0 pressures again?

I never got round to loading the latest firmware because they ran me out of time and I had to move to other projects...but I want to update my machine and get it back on the counter over the next week or so.

P.S. It's partly why the Vesuvius doesn't allow Zero pressures...although with that machine you can turn preheat off...part of the reason for that was to be able to have zero pressure phases if the software ever gets updated again.


----------



## Hulster

DavecUK said:


> The reason I asked for the minimum pressure to be raised from Zero is because the system has preheat...and if the service boiler is on, it's going to cause voids in the brew boiler, and water from the preheat HX in the boiler to boil off into the brew boiler (it's just physics). I didn't realise for the Crem One 2B LFPP they had allowed 0 pressures again?


 I guess the do not allow to record a profile with zero. So you can't use the barista button for it, but you can edit definitely the file.

A stage profiling would be really great. And as it is simple software I would either add an option to disable pre-heat or do just this during running a profile in general.

Unfortunately I did not get any contact to work on a wish-list. If you have contact you may could forward them the following in addtion to what we have just discussed

- a few more profiles even I am using not a lot for the moment. Maybe 10
- extend the time allowed for each profile maybe double around 120 sec

The main reason for me buying the LFPP was to have an easy and quick option to do more different type of coffees. Overall it seems capable for this, but for the moment I see a lack of support to develop ahead. It seems they didn't get to their mind that they developed a new type of espresso machine that needs a different habit.
It is not anymore a type of fire (develop) and forget (just sell).
In Germany it seem this machine is VERY slowly getting to the market. And for me the reason is the people selling do not understand it, even not the former Expobar guys.
The only guy that seems to dig a bit more into it seems to be you. Your review was the reason for me to decide for it.

What I didn't realize upfront is the lack of customer support and community. Hope this will change rapidly. Otherwise they will not be able to get advantage of their decision to build such a type of machine.


----------



## KevinCoffee

Hulster said:


> I guess the do not allow to record a profile with zero. So you can't use the barista button for it, but you can edit definitely the file.
> 
> A stage profiling would be really great. And as it is simple software I would either add an option to disable pre-heat or do just this during running a profile in general.
> 
> Unfortunately I did not get any contact to work on a wish-list. If you have contact you may could forward them the following in addtion to what we have just discussed
> 
> - a few more profiles even I am using not a lot for the moment. Maybe 10
> - extend the time allowed for each profile maybe double around 120 sec
> 
> The main reason for me buying the LFPP was to have an easy and quick option to do more different type of coffees. Overall it seems capable for this, but for the moment I see a lack of support to develop ahead. It seems they didn't get to their mind that they developed a new type of espresso machine that needs a different habit.
> It is not anymore a type of fire (develop) and forget (just sell).
> In Germany it seem this machine is VERY slowly getting to the market. And for me the reason is the people selling do not understand it, even not the former Expobar guys.
> The only guy that seems to dig a bit more into it seems to be you. Your review was the reason for me to decide for it.
> 
> What I didn't realize upfront is the lack of customer support and community. Hope this will change rapidly. Otherwise they will not be able to get advantage of their decision to build such a type of machine.


 I agree this machine is getting slowly to the market. To be clear, I own the normal dual boiler version, but I totally understand you miss support for your version.

It seems they forgot about support and after sales (and marketing as well). Especially for the high end models.

I have to say that I emailed with Anders (field marketing manager) in the UK and he always replied quickly. He also shared the latest firmware with me including manuals. Maybe you can send him an email instead.


----------



## bigm

DavecUK said:


> All of that stuff is in the advanced menu.


 is there somewhere an overview of which graphic in the advanced menu is responsible for what?

I have no idea what the symbols mean and would have to guess.

The support in this regard is modest from crem.


----------



## bigm

Hulster said:


> I have 1.09 running and it does work for me. Is the tray fully set? Did you test it with some water. You simple need to fill up until both visibible metal strips get in contact.
> 
> I don't think Crem is reading here. I have asked them for some contact specifically for this machine. No response yet.
> For that I am really a bit disappointed. Without the software and some tech support this nothing more then a usual coffee machine. But the software makes this machine what it is.
> 
> And Crem is really hoping a usual dealer will support this machine? This is brand new functionality, they even may not have heard about pressure profiling. Even getting the newest firmware will not work. What should they do? Having a specfiic customer database for this machine and sending some mail to everybody if a new version has been released?
> 🤣
> 
> To me they have to build up a subsidary on their website. Giving access to the different firmware and some FAQ.


 The problem is when I fill the tank, the machine does not draw water until the "water empty" warning comes with the "modest" mains hum.
then I have the feeling it's a mindless "xx seconds" let run and done.

if i for example just let water run for 30sec. then the machine comes below minimum and switches off and also draws no more water because the timer has expired.
No idea if you can set something.

I have the machine directly connected to a reverse osmosis system there "shoots" the water of course not with 3/4bar pressure.

That Crem does not read here I think me.
I do not understand why one does not think clearly, for example, when turning on (boilertemp below 30/40 ° C) simply FIRST heats the coffee boiler (the brew group must be warm) and then the steam boiler and as soon as operating temperature is reached this is reversed again on steam first. (the same regulation is effective in ecomode but personally adjustable).

Since you build an electronic monster or a PC in a coffee machine housing and the software is then sloppy.

no matter how full I make the drip tray it does not interest the machine the bean.
the metal flags can stand completely in the water. (I know this system from fully automatic machines and it works great there).


----------



## DavecUK

bigm said:


> is there somewhere an overview of which graphic in the advanced menu is responsible for what?
> 
> I have no idea what the symbols mean and would have to guess.
> 
> The support in this regard is modest from crem.


 @bigm Is this any help

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/files/file/11-crem-one-technical-manual/?do=embed


----------



## Hulster

bigm said:


> That Crem does not read here I think me.
> I do not understand why one does not think clearly, for example, when turning on (boilertemp below 30/40 ° C) simply FIRST heats the coffee boiler (the brew group must be warm) and then the steam boiler and as soon as operating temperature is reached this is reversed again on steam first. (the same regulation is effective in ecomode but personally adjustable).


 For this you need to understand the Expobar design. The brew boiler pipe leads THROUGH the steam boiler. It is to give the brew boiler better temperature stability, as the fresh water is massively pre-heated.
Anyway - both boiler are heating up very quickly. But you need to wait 25 - 30 min anyway to take a shot. Heating up in different order will not help much for that. BUT you can use hot water and steam meanwhile.


----------



## Hulster

@DavecUK - btw, the doc you published remind me a point to discuss.
In your review you mentioned the Offset between head and boiler is only 7 °K. I have no tool to measure for myself.
From a logical perspective this should the same as it is by construction, isn't it?
The only point is maybe here the room temperature, which could cause a bigger/smaller real offset.
But finally this should not be massive as the difference is already quite big. Should not make a real difference if the room is about 21 or 22 °C.
So do you think it makes sense to correct the offset in the advanced setting to match the "real" offset?
2 °K for a coffee could make a massive difference. It would make things easier to discuss with other, if the "real" temperature matches what to be discussed.
So i.e. I was currently suprised about my pour over simulation results (better then expected). But if the offset is only 7 °K I would currently brewing at 95 °C instead of the choosen default 93° C in the menu.


----------



## DavecUK

That was my findings...7C, probably because the thermosyphon pipes are large...regardless, it's what I found.

I would use the settings I gave in my review, as I spend days doing temperature tests, it's tedious and time consuming....but it's up to you. I may well do some extra checks (when it's back on the counter and with the updated software) now I have a SCACE II.


----------



## bigm

DavecUK said:


> @bigm Is this any help


 i check this later



Hulster said:


> For this you need to understand the Expobar design. The brew boiler pipe leads THROUGH the steam boiler. It is to give the brew boiler better temperature stability, as the fresh water is massively pre-heated.
> Anyway - both boiler are heating up very quickly. But you need to wait 25 - 30 min anyway to take a shot. Heating up in different order will not help much for that. BUT you can use hot water and steam meanwhile.


 I am already familiar with the design.
But when the coffee boiler first heats up it is 5min BEFORE the steam boiler at temperature ie it circulates hot water 5 minutes earlier through the brew group.
5Min are 5Min 

just the Caffeeboiler heats up sensationally slower than the steam boiler. either a weaker heating element or more careful clocking is used here.

If you first heat up the coffee boiler has the brew group already 40-50 ° until the steam boiler is so far.
That gives you a head start in terms of time.


----------



## bigm

DavecUK said:


> @bigm Is this any help
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/files/file/11-crem-one-technical-manual/?do=embed


 yes that was very useful!
thank you


----------



## Hulster

I had ideas to work around some issues, but didn't work due to some limitations

1. I was going to solve the issue with independent ECO mode by temperature, but didn't work. The idea was to simple set the ECO temperature the same as for normal mode for the brew boiler. But unfortunately the settings are limited and does not allow that high temperatur.

2. I had the idea to work around with staged profiles by setting the service boiler in ECO below the brew boiler temperature. The issue is usually with high service boiler temperature and pump not working. Here similar limitation, in this case the lower temperature < 105 °C was not allowed.

For the last I may try to disable the servcie boiler overall.

Again - I would really appreciate to have some comunication with Crem. The should open a forum on their site - worldwide to share information and get aware about customer needs.


----------



## DavecUK

From memory, I wouldn't recommend using eco mode...excerpt from my review below.

*ECO mode could be improved in a future update*. It reduces the temperature a little on the boilers to save energy. It *only *works on both boilers, when *I really don't want to step down the brew boiler temperature* to* save almost no energy*. The group takes around 10 minutes or longer (aggravated because of the heating priority issue above) to fully stabilise in temperature after coming out of ECO mode. *I would love to see a toggle between: Steam Boiler Only, Both Boilers, Brew boiler only.* This way you have the option to choose, personally I would choose steam boiler only. The best, of course, is to run with the steam boiler off unless you need it on!


----------



## Hulster

DavecUK said:


> From memory, I wouldn't recommend using eco mode...excerpt from my review below.
> 
> *ECO mode could be improved in a future update*. It reduces the temperature a little on the boilers to save energy. It *only *works on both boilers, when *I really don't want to step down the brew boiler temperature* to* save almost no energy*. The group takes around 10 minutes or longer (aggravated because of the heating priority issue above) to fully stabilise in temperature after coming out of ECO mode. *I would love to see a toggle between: Steam Boiler Only, Both Boilers, Brew boiler only.* This way you have the option to choose, personally I would choose steam boiler only. The best, of course, is to run with the steam boiler off unless you need it on!


 I read your review carefully again after getting my LFPP. That was the reason stating and finally confirming to motivate Crem.

Just in addition I was going to workaround some special aspects, before any further firmware update. If understood correctly the 1.09 is from April 2020 and no further update now for almost a year.

- Running only the service boiler in Eco mode by tweaking the Eco mode brew boiler temp

- the issue with service boiler tem affecting brew boiler if pump not running. To be able to run a profile with steps of 0 bar for my filter simulation


----------



## DavecUK

Hulster said:


> - the issue with service boiler tem affecting brew boiler if pump not running. To be able to run a profile with steps of 0 bar for my filter simulation


 The problem is they use preheat, if they didn't 0 bar (or close to it for tech reasons) would not be a problem...


----------



## Hulster

DavecUK said:


> The problem is they use preheat, if they didn't 0 bar (or close to it for tech reasons) would not be a problem...


 Anyway - when your LFPP is back I would appreciate you could test my pour over simulation and tell me your opinion.

Filter roast, grind a bit finer then usual for the same coffee at V60.

ratio - 10g for 150ml out (as for V60)

Barista mode step 1: Use coffee scale as timer. Use Crem display to fill 22 - 25 ml and stop by lever. Use the coffee scale timer for blooming as the Crem timer stops when lever closed.

Barista mode step 2: Fill up cup with lowest pressure up to 150 ml. If it takes less then 30 - 45 sec you need to grind finer.

Your opinion will be interesting...


----------



## Jimmy Tham

DavecUK said:


> Firmware file 'FHAND.bin' to install rev. 1.09 on 2 boilers versions
> 
> 
> Installation instructions for 2 Boilers versions
> 
> 
> Updates list for each software revision
> 
> 
> Here is a link to the file i have stored.
> 
> Crem One dual Boiler firmware update 3.86 MB · 8 downloads


 Is there a public website for us to download the firmware from? Tried searching for this on Crem website but I'm getting a tonne of garbage


----------



## DavecUK

Jimmy Tham said:


> Is there a public website for us to download the firmware from? Tried searching for this on Crem website but I'm getting a tonne of garbage


 I have no idea, I think it probably goes to dealers. That's the latest version I know of.


----------



## Hulster

Jimmy Tham said:


> Is there a public website for us to download the firmware from? Tried searching for this on Crem website but I'm getting a tonne of garbage


 Nope - one thing we are complaining about.


----------



## DavecUK

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/files/


----------



## larsdekock

Hi everyone,

I am seriously considering buying the Crem One 2B R-LFPP but the lack of reviews and comparisons with other machines is making me nervous. I did not know Dave, but I understand he is a genuine coffee hero, and his positive review of the machine seems well substantiated. That definitely seems to be worth something, but his is kind of the only serious review of the machine, and other machines from other brands have dozens and dozens of positive reviews.

The Crem One line seems to be on the market for a while now, and there are very very few positive testimonials compared to other machines in the price range. I don't want to spend this kind of money only to find that in a few years the market has not really adopted this new move from Expobar/Crem, and I am left with a machine that few people can service, parts are hard to find or are expensive, etc. I also find it strange that Crem announced the successor for the Expobar Office Control series in 2019, which looked very cool, but there is absolutely no mention of this machine anywhere. Is Welbilt serious about funding and marketing this new Crem line?

Would the Lelit Bianca be a safer bet? It seems to do more or less the same thing (save for manual instead of programmatic pressure profiling) and has run more miles in the market.

So how come there are so few reviews, and is my uneasiness unwarranted about this machine maybe not being a safe bet for the next 10-15 years?

Thanks,

Lars


----------



## DavecUK

Bianca is an excellent machine and would be very safe bet.


----------



## larsdekock

Thanks for the quick response.

How do you view the limited user base of the Crem? Is it still early days, or is it possible the machine will kind of flop? Also, does it matter, in terms of servicing costs?

The ability to import and export recipes is cool, but so far I don't see any forums with people exchanging them. Same for firmware, I have only found one update posted by you and that's it. If that doesn't change then it seems of limited use?

Finally, how much variation in pressure profile is even realistic? It all seems to boil down to slow start, quick ramp up, gradual tapering off. How many variations of that can you realistically want or need?


----------



## DavecUK

larsdekock said:


> Thanks for the quick response.
> 
> 1. How do you view the limited user base of the Crem? Is it still early days, or is it possible the machine will kind of flop? Also, does it matter, in terms of servicing costs?
> 
> 2. The ability to import and export recipes is cool, but so far I don't see any forums with people exchanging them. Same for firmware, I have only found one update posted by you and that's it. If that doesn't change then it seems of limited use?
> 3 Finally, how much variation in pressure profile is even realistic? It all seems to boil down to slow start, quick ramp up, gradual tapering off. How many variations of that can you realistically want or need?


 1. I hope it doesn't flop, theres a lot of good ideas and potential there. Servicing costs should be different to anything else of a similar complexity.

2. You said it yourself, limited user base

3. That's not how it works, they have taken an innovative approach to profiling and one that works really well. It's perhaps a little more difficult to understand how to use it and explain it...but it's a great approach.


----------



## Hulster

DavecUK said:


> 1. I hope it doesn't flop, theres a lot of good ideas and potential there. Servicing costs should be different to anything else of a similar complexity.
> 
> 2. You said it yourself, limited user base
> 
> 3. That's not how it works, they have taken an innovative approach to profiling and one that works really well. It's perhaps a little more difficult to understand how to use it and explain it...but it's a great approach.


 m2ct

The Lelit is great, but everything to do manual all the time.

The Crem - even in the actual software version - offers a lot more. GSP, storing/modifying profiles, doing manually as Bianca, etc. And everything is working.
@larsdekock - so if you have Expobar dealer close by, this should ensure you get service. Nothing more you need to think about. It is technically an Expobar so a known good machine.
When I get it right you live in Netherlands. If nothing close by, but you are living close german border, there is an option.


----------



## Hulster

By the way - a little update on my pour over "simulation".
I was fearing testing it against a real pour over, but I did it today.
And it was unbelievable how close they are. There are only very small differences.
The V60 has a little bit more acid(really few), but that is likely because of differences to temperature and grind size.
The V60 was 21g for 300 ml, 30 sec blooming 2:20 in total. So grind size looks ok. Temp 97 °C
On the Crem 10.x g for 150 ml. 30 sec blooming. 1:10 in total at 2 bar. 94 °C (Offset 7 °K)

The Crem version has a little amount of fines, but even with that there is no real difference on the clarity.
So very satisfied.


----------



## KevinCoffee

Hulster said:


> m2ct
> 
> The Lelit is great, but everything to do manual all the time.
> 
> The Crem - even in the actual software version - offers a lot more. GSP, storing/modifying profiles, doing manually as Bianca, etc. And everything is working.
> @larsdekock - so if you have Expobar dealer close by, this should ensure you get service. Nothing more you need to think about. It is technically an Expobar so a known good machine.
> When I get it right you live in Netherlands. If nothing close by, but you are living close german border, there is an option.


 Casa Barista is a Crem dealer, that's where I got mine. They replaced the stuck on/off switch for free. Also Van Pommeren offers the Crem One, as well as some online sellers. So plenty of options in The Netherlands.


----------



## Hulster

KevinCoffee said:


> Casa Barista is a Crem dealer, that's where I got mine. They replaced the stuck on/off switch for free. Also Van Pommeren offers the Crem One, as well as some online sellers. So plenty of options in The Netherlands.


 It is not about getting/buying it. For such a machine you are usually like to have a real local dealer, so close by. For service.
You don't like to send around such stuff. If I would not have a local dealer nearby, I would not have decided for that machine.


----------



## KevinCoffee

Hulster said:


> It is not about getting/buying it. For such a machine you are usually like to have a real local dealer, so close by. For service.
> You don't like to send around such stuff. If I would not have a local dealer nearby, I would not have decided for that machine.


 I understand it's not about buying it. I just wanted to point out some local dealers in The Netherlands


----------



## larsdekock

Thanks for the replies. Hearing more fanatics using and liking this machine is comforting.

What is the feeling about build quality and durability compared to e.g. the Lelit Bianca, ECM or Profitec machines? Is the Crem as good as the rest of them? Or do the advanced features at this price tag come with a reliability and durability compromise? Can I expect this machine to last 10-15 years?


----------



## DavecUK

larsdekock said:


> Thanks for the replies. Hearing more fanatics using and liking this machine is comforting.
> 
> What is the feeling about build quality and durability compared to e.g. the Lelit Bianca, ECM or Profitec machines? Is the Crem as good as the rest of them? Or do the advanced features at this price tag come with a reliability and durability compromise? Can I expect this machine to last 10-15 years?


 It looked like it would last pretty well. When I first did the engineering review on the Gene cafe, I thought they might last 3-5 years...boy was I suprised, they have proved incredibly robust (well once I got the heating elements completely respecified and lifed for 2000 hours!

Things can last much longer than you think....


----------



## KevinCoffee

larsdekock said:


> Thanks for the replies. Hearing more fanatics using and liking this machine is comforting.
> 
> What is the feeling about build quality and durability compared to e.g. the Lelit Bianca, ECM or Profitec machines? Is the Crem as good as the rest of them? Or do the advanced features at this price tag come with a reliability and durability compromise? Can I expect this machine to last 10-15 years?


 I think the build quality is good, but Dave knows best I think. My on/off switch got stuck, it was fixed, but of course I was a bit disappointed, as I pay a lot of money for the machine. But furthermore I think it's a solid machine, no further complaints so far.


----------



## MHusa

Hello. This is my first post to this forum, so please be gentle. Also, I am in the US, so please consider that in the reply (don't know if things work the same in the UK).

Here is my dilemma. I purchased a CREM ONE 2B LFPP after some research and reviews (Thanks DavecUK for your extensive work reviewing this machine). It is on back-order but just found out it can ship tomorrow (4/1/21 - interestingly this is April Fools day, so I hope it isn't a joke on me 🙄). The US distributor is Wholelattelove. Also today, they're Technical support person contacted me and explained that with the mains flowing into the water reservoir, they do NOT recommend plumbing the unit. They said that they are worried that if something fails with the solenoid valve there could be extensive flooding and damage to both the machine as well as to the users kitchen, or wherever the machine is placed. This makes me sad as that was one of the selling points for me - but not the main point. Does anyone have experience with this machine in a plumbed environment and concerns for valve failure? Appreciate any feedback.


----------



## danielpugh

MHusa said:


> Hello. This is my first post to this forum, so please be gentle. Also, I am in the US, so please consider that in the reply (don't know if things work the same in the UK).
> 
> Here is my dilemma. I purchased a CREM ONE 2B LFPP after some research and reviews (Thanks DavecUK for your extensive work reviewing this machine). It is on back-order but just found out it can ship tomorrow (4/1/21 - interestingly this is April Fools day, so I hope it isn't a joke on me 🙄). The US distributor is Wholelattelove. Also today, they're Technical support person contacted me and explained that with the mains flowing into the water reservoir, they do NOT recommend plumbing the unit. They said that they are worried that if something fails with the solenoid valve there could be extensive flooding and damage to both the machine as well as to the users kitchen, or wherever the machine is placed. This makes me sad as that was one of the selling points for me - but not the main point. Does anyone have experience with this machine in a plumbed environment and concerns for valve failure? Appreciate any feedback.


 I was very interested in this machine. before deciding to get a lever machine. The main reason I didn't opt for it was the high price in the UK compared to the price in the UK - presumably exchange rate. Other than that the only worry was the lack of online feedback/exposure apart from @DavecUK review (which I thought was comprehensive and made me very interested, particularly in the volumetric method used).

I use a mains connection but don't have a waste/drainage pipe (yet). A fault (OPV) on my previous machine did result in a leak/flood after about 2 years of use - luckily no real damage apart from fuse tripped and need to fill & paint some plasterboard. I would guess what they are referring to. Other machines are mains tank fed with no problem (e.g. Vesuvius), and the more recent equivalent to the crem - vbm super domobar is mains fed, but doesn't have any drainage (I think - which concerned me - also it is not volumetric but time based pressure profile). I would say definitely worth getting drainage as well as the feed. Otherwise it looked like a great machine.

I would say it would be worth you asking them for more details on why they suggest this - have they had specific issues? That may help clarify things as there probably is a root cause for their advice, but maybe it is for specific circumstances.


----------



## DavecUK

pressure profiling machines have to be fed to the tank, otherwise it interferes with profiling. There is no more risk than with a normal plumbed machine. The Solenoid valve is normally closed and if the coil failed, it would close. All plumbed machines in my opinion should have a "leak stop" fitted...It's worth remembering that a solenoid valve is also in play in machines that are direct plumbed.....with the same chance of failure.

There are mechanical ones and electronic ones...which detect a continuous flow of water over time, configurable as a leak and shut the water off. The electronic ones can be installed at the water take off point for the machine.

https://www.expresswater.com/products/leak-shutoff-valve-quick-connect


----------



## MHusa

Thank you both for your responses. I have been looking at alarms (fine if the failure occurs when I am home) and shutoff solutions. I do like the mechanical approach as that eliminates any electronic failure modes to stopping water flow. The water will be coming from the back of my refridgerator (currently used for Ice/water from the fridge door) and I will probably get a filter system to install in-line to the CREM. I may do a combination of alarm + shutoff. The shutoff I was looking at was a flow shotoff valve from these guys https://www.waterdamagedefense.com/collections/flow-rate-based-water-leak-detectors-shut-off-valve

I don't really have the ability to install the shutoff in Davec's link on my countertop by the CREM.

I say "probably" on the filtering because after 20 years (maybe a total of 1200~1500 shots pulled as I was a light user) with my previous machine - Starbucks distributed Saeco machine called "Estro Vapore." before I knew anything about espresso and frankly pronounced the term as "Expresso" back then... still makes me cringe. I opened up the boiler expecting to find much scale/deterioration, but the boiler and heating element were clean. That was a very pleasant surprise. I do expect to take better care of the CREM and increase usage as there is so much to tinker with so most likely a filter is in the works. I am still learning. Any suggestions on where I might find some good guidelines for general maintenance? I'll start with the manual, but always good to have multiple resources.

I will ask the distributor if they have specific reasons for not wanting to plumb the machine, thanks for that suggestion Daniel. As Davec indicates, pressure profilers need to use the tank. Maybe they have limited experience with pressure profilers are are just trying to be safe? I did get some additional products from them thrown in since they advertise the unit as a plumbable machine but recommend not plumbing it.


----------



## DavecUK

@MHusa That valve is exactly what I was trying to find, a flow based valve. I've been thinking to install one on the house rising main, could save a very expensive problem.


----------



## danielpugh

The one (uninformed) scenario to account for is a continuous but slow leak. Not sure if that device would tackle that (although it might). I had an opv that stuck. The first time it was a very slow leak overnight after the machine cooled - so about 8hrs of dribbling that overflowed the drip tray (at the time I had no drainage). Adding a waste pipe helps for this. Later on I "fixed" the opv (actually partially broke it by screwing the elbow in too tight blocking the spring from moving). This led to mains pressure through the opv - think that device would catch it.


----------



## danielpugh

This might be useful as you are in US - no use to us in the UK.

Whether it needs home hubs or anything I don't know, but no plumbing, and you can use a zwave water sensors and they'll communicate using zwave (ultra low energy/ WiFi). Would require some extra research if you haven't got/used zwave. The nice thing is it's open standard and every device is a repeater, so if you have devices already then range won't be a problem.

https://www.domeha.com/z-wave-water-main-shut-off-valve


----------



## CoffeeCarl

MHusa said:


> The US distributor is Wholelattelove. Also today, they're Technical support person contacted me and explained that with the mains flowing into the water reservoir, they do NOT recommend plumbing the unit. They said that they are worried that if something fails with the solenoid valve there could be extensive flooding and damage to both the machine as well as to the users kitchen, or wherever the machine is placed. This makes me sad as that was one of the selling points for me - but not the main point. Does anyone have experience with this machine in a plumbed environment and concerns for valve failure? Appreciate any feedback.


 I am in the exact same boat- state side really intrigued by the LFPP (WLL Profiler) but really bummed it's not plumbable. I'm new to the world of prosumer as well, but haven't heard of the profitec pro 700 or ECM Synch or Lelit Bianca... all which (can) come with profiling, having to be run off a reservoir. Or is it something to do with how Crem has set up their profiling vs all the others having it on the grouphead?

I appreciate WLL being conservative and not having it leak all over the place... but seems strange that, as far as I can tell, every other country around the world is receiving a plumbable machine and the US is reservoir only.


----------



## MHusa

Hey CoffeeCarl. As I understand it, the CREM ONE uses the rotary pump in conjunction with a DC motor to control the water pressure for pressure profiling. The others you mention do that by restricting waterflow in the grouphead, so a different approach. I looked at those machines as well but one of the things I really like about the CREM is the pressure profile can be automated and you can have up to five profiles on the machine at once for different coffee or users or whatnot.

I did talk with WLLs Technical director Todd today and we discussed the machine. They will not restrict the ability to plumb the machine they are sending me, so I can do that if I wish. He indicated he was primarily concerned with flooding in the home due to solenoid failure. There are some means to minimize the flooding that I briefly discussed above. Plus, my kitchen is currently in dis-repair and a flood wouldn't make things that much worse off 😲. I didn't press him on why they are not restricting other machines with solenoids. He did indicate that WLL does make some modifications to the CREM besides restricting the plumb function to improve the overall safety and operation. He also said he will provide the machine with a few sample pressure profiles to get me started. I was relieved to hear that the concern was not with water damage within the machine itself (electronics or pump). That makes me less concerned and there are ways to limit water damage due to flooding of the water source. So I am going forward with the purchase and am looking forward to learning how to make good espresso. My current plan is to start out using the reservoir only and then move to a plumbed-in system with some method of controlling a run-away leak when the annoyance of filling the reservoir is too much.


----------



## ZAPA

Hi, from Spain:

are there any group of people to share profiles?, for example by telegram, facebook,...

If not, would you like to create it?

Sorry for my english


----------



## Minetti

ZAPA said:


> Hi, from Spain:
> 
> are there any group of people to share profiles?, for example by telegram, facebook,...
> 
> If not, would you like to create it?
> 
> Sorry for my english


 I,m interested if anyone makes a group 

here are two profiles that I found online:



> TYPE
> INDEX: 1
> NAME:LIGHT R
> ML: 110
> TIME: 36
> 0: 2.0
> 1: 2.0
> 2: 2.0
> 3: 2.0
> 4: 2.0
> 5: 2.0
> 6: 2.0
> 7: 2.0
> 8: 2.0
> 9: 2.0
> 10: 2.2
> 11: 2.9
> 12: 2.9
> 13: 2.9
> 14: 2.9
> 15: 2.9
> 16: 3.2
> 17: 5.3
> 18: 5.3
> 19: 5.3
> 20: 5.3
> 21: 5.3
> 22: 5.3
> 23: 5.3
> 24: 5.5
> 25: 1.5
> 
> TYPE
> INDEX: 3
> NAME:SWEETBMP
> ML: 91
> TIME: 28
> 0: 4.9
> 1: 4.9
> 2: 4.9
> 3: 4.9
> 4: 4.9
> 5: 4.9
> 6: 4.9
> 7: 4.9
> 8: 4.9
> 9: 4.9
> 10: 4.9
> 11: 4.9
> 12: 4.9
> 13: 4.9
> 14: 4.9
> 15: 4.9
> 16: 4.9
> 17: 6.7
> 18: 8.1
> 19: 8.7
> 20: 8.9
> 21: 8.9
> 22: 5.5
> 23: 4.9


----------



## ZAPA

Created it , join the group and share to other people. Thank you!!

https://t.me/joinchat/_bEYH4B0ZFpmY2Vk


----------



## ZAPA

Minetti said:


> I,m interested if anyone makes a group
> 
> here are two profiles that I found online:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TYPE
> INDEX: 1
> NAME:LIGHT R
> ML: 110
> TIME: 36
> 0: 2.0
> 1: 2.0
> 2: 2.0
> 3: 2.0
> 4: 2.0
> 5: 2.0
> 6: 2.0
> 7: 2.0
> 8: 2.0
> 9: 2.0
> 10: 2.2
> 11: 2.9
> 12: 2.9
> 13: 2.9
> 14: 2.9
> 15: 2.9
> 16: 3.2
> 17: 5.3
> 18: 5.3
> 19: 5.3
> 20: 5.3
> 21: 5.3
> 22: 5.3
> 23: 5.3
> 24: 5.5
> 25: 1.5
> 
> TYPE
> INDEX: 3
> NAME:SWEETBMP
> ML: 91
> TIME: 28
> 0: 4.9
> 1: 4.9
> 2: 4.9
> 3: 4.9
> 4: 4.9
> 5: 4.9
> 6: 4.9
> 7: 4.9
> 8: 4.9
> 9: 4.9
> 10: 4.9
> 11: 4.9
> 12: 4.9
> 13: 4.9
> 14: 4.9
> 15: 4.9
> 16: 4.9
> 17: 6.7
> 18: 8.1
> 19: 8.7
> 20: 8.9
> 21: 8.9
> 22: 5.5
> 23: 4.9
Click to expand...

 Great


----------



## smorgo

Starting at the end of this thread and working backwards, I'm intending to pull the trigger on one of these machines in the next few weeks and was concerned about WLL's comments about plumbing it in.

I see that the WaterBlock is readily available in the UK and is cheap enough that it's a no-brainer. I've ordered one before I forget. Of course, I'll have misplaced it by the time I have the machine and will probably end up buying another.

Link: https://www.bes.co.uk/water-block-shut-off-valve-13756/


----------



## MHusa

Hi Smorgo, I just finished writing my review of the machine (today in fact) @ WLL. I have been using the machine since mid April. I actually ordered a stainless steel cable from Bella Barista and had it shipped to the states because the one that WLL provided me was plastic. I plumbed it in about the last week in April. I have not had any issues. The one thing I notice is that when the solenoid kicks in because the reservoir is near empty, it adds about a fourth of a liter. Really small amount. I wish it would add more, but perhaps that is set-able with the firmware (Mine was sent with firmware 1.11). I have not found where I can adjust that, but at this point, happy there are no leak issues. I also added a pressure regulator in-line and dropped pressure down to about 2 bar.

I'm REALLY happy with the machine! I hope you like it.

I am using it with a water shutoff/leak detection kit from econetcontrols.com. The wired sensors I was using however kept tripping and shutting off the water. I have been working with the company and they have updated their software filters and believe they have fixed the problem. I have high confidence that if it isn't fixed they will keep working on it until they do. Very good company to deal with. They are about to ship out the updated product. All shipping back and forth has been covered by EcoNet Controls.


----------



## KevinCoffee

Good to hear you are satisfied with the machine! Where can we find the review?

I have firmware version 1.09, do you maybe know the difference with 1.11?


----------



## MHusa

Hi Kevin,

Go here: https://www.wholelattelove.com/products/crem-one-profiler-dual-boiler-espresso-machine

and click on the review. So far mine is the only one. But frankly it's weak on substance. I would read DaveC's review which is awesome and at the start of this thread. NOTE: WLL branded the machine "Profiler" vs "2B R LFPP"

That rotary engine, er I mean pump, is very impressive sounding and amazingly quiet.

I have a question into WLL about what is in 1.11. They have not gotten back to me on that yet. I'll share if they do. I'm a bit concerned that WLL got a unique build based on their modifications to the machine. I had several discussions with them about keeping mine plummable and they had to go "undo" a mod or two to make it work, but so far, so good and they have been responsive to all my concerns.


----------



## larsdekock

I bought the Crem One 2B R-LFPP a couple of weeks ago, and generally very happy with it.

I'm getting great shots, the gradual pre-infusion works great, experimenting with profiles is also great, the auto on/off timer is great, the shot mirror is great, there's really a lot to love.

The only worry I have is the sound that the machine is sometimes making. There's a rattling noise when the machine is building pressure. The guy who set up the machine for me in the store warned me about it, and said they initially worried about it too, then talked to Crem about it, and were repeatedly assured that it's nothing to worry about.

But somehow it's got me worried. Not only does it make me worry about something starting to break, but it's also just an ugly sound that kind of makes you cringe when you hear it.

I asked the retailer again, and they said again not to worry about it. They're saying the sound is a pressure relief valve that is making the sound. They say the machine needs about 6 seconds to build up pressure and during that time the pressure is best kept below 6 bar. If it's higher than that during the build-up phase, that's when the valves make the sound. When everything is built up, the sound indeed disappears.

My technical knowledge is way too limited to understand whether this explanation actually makes sense, but I'm also still left with a quite ugly sound on my machine. The sound is most pronounced when I use a blind filter to backflush and have the GSP option switched off (so the machine goes to 9 bar immediately).

Here's a video with sound: 




Any thoughts on this? Anyone with a similar experience?

Dave, with all your technical knowledge, what do you think?


----------



## Hulster

larsdekock said:


> I bought the Crem One 2B R-LFPP a couple of weeks ago, and generally very happy with it.
> 
> I'm getting great shots, the gradual pre-infusion works great, experimenting with profiles is also great, the auto on/off timer is great, the shot mirror is great, there's really a lot to love.
> 
> The only worry I have is the sound that the machine is sometimes making. There's a rattling noise when the machine is building pressure. The guy who set up the machine for me in the store warned me about it, and said they initially worried about it too, then talked to Crem about it, and were repeatedly assured that it's nothing to worry about.
> 
> But somehow it's got me worried. Not only does it make me worry about something starting to break, but it's also just an ugly sound that kind of makes you cringe when you hear it.
> 
> I asked the retailer again, and they said again not to worry about it. They're saying the sound is a pressure relief valve that is making the sound. They say the machine needs about 6 seconds to build up pressure and during that time the pressure is best kept below 6 bar. If it's higher than that during the build-up phase, that's when the valves make the sound. When everything is built up, the sound indeed disappears.
> 
> My technical knowledge is way too limited to understand whether this explanation actually makes sense, but I'm also still left with a quite ugly sound on my machine. The sound is most pronounced when I use a blind filter to backflush and have the GSP option switched off (so the machine goes to 9 bar immediately).
> 
> Here's a video with sound:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any thoughts on this? Anyone with a similar experience?
> 
> Dave, with all your technical knowledge, what do you think?


 There is no big issue with this sound. The reason is simple. Especially if you are working with profiles the profile stops at a certain point. If you do not close the lever directly due the pressure in the boiler there gets a little bit of air into the system.
After for the next shot the pump is working with it and produce this sound.
As more careful with the lever you are, as less sound you will get.
Me even notice it anymore. 😉


----------



## cuprajake

thats not true....its nothing to do with the lever useage, its a fault with the design, crem acknowladge it..and have made a fix


----------



## alexcs

Cuprajake said:


> thats not true....its nothing to do with the lever useage, its a fault with the design, crem acknowladge it..and have made a fix


 Can you elaborate, I've had an lfpp for about a year and this noise has been the only annoyance.

thanks for any info


----------



## CoffeeTim

I tested the machine in a local retailer. I haven't play with profiling and GSP. But the machine was extremely quiet.


----------



## Hulster

Cuprajake said:


> thats not true....its nothing to do with the lever useage, its a fault with the design, crem acknowladge it..and have made a fix


 some more details appreciated


----------



## cuprajake

If you look back over this thread theres an invite link to a crem owners group.

Join it they all know the issue as does manufacturer and bella barista of the uk, who seem to have pulled all their crem stock off the online shop.

Its somet to do with a return valve and solenoid i believe


----------



## alexcs

Is it the profiling telegram group? Can't seem to see anything else


----------



## cuprajake

Yeah.

They will be up to date with the progress.

I got mine brand new it did it first use, so went right back in the box for a refund.

Not paying over 2 grand to have a machine that screams in pain everytime you pull a shot


----------



## alexcs

Cuprajake said:


> Yeah.
> 
> They will be up to date with the progress.
> 
> I got mine brand new it did it first use, so went right back in the box for a refund.
> 
> Not paying over 2 grand to have a machine that screams in pain everytime you pull a shot


 So is there a fix that can be done at dealer/retailer level or does it require a machine replacement?


----------



## DavecUK

alexcs said:


> So is there a fix that can be done at dealer/retailer level or does it require a machine replacement?


 *It would be nice to know what the problem is, precisely and accurately*. As yet, no one from Crem or Retailers have contacted me to explain anything or give me the results of any tests. So I am reluctant to speculate beyond one known cause where a user might leave the lever up without the pump running...but that's an operational issue...not a fault.


----------



## alexcs

DavecUK said:


> *It would be nice to know what the problem is, precisely and accurately*. As yet, no one from Crem or Retailers have contacted me to explain anything or give me the results of any tests. So I am reluctant to speculate beyond one known cause where a user might leave the lever up without the pump running...but that's an operational issue...not a fault.


 Hi Dave

I was piggybacking off the below post, relevant parts in bold:



larsdekock said:


> I bought the Crem One 2B R-LFPP a couple of weeks ago, and generally very happy with it.
> 
> I'm getting great shots, the gradual pre-infusion works great, experimenting with profiles is also great, the auto on/off timer is great, the shot mirror is great, there's really a lot to love.
> 
> The only worry I have is the sound that the machine is sometimes making. *There's a rattling noise when the machine is building pressure. *The guy who set up the machine for me in the store warned me about it, and said they initially worried about it too, then talked to Crem about it, and were repeatedly assured that it's nothing to worry about.
> 
> But somehow it's got me worried. Not only does it make me worry about something starting to break, but it's also just an ugly sound that kind of makes you cringe when you hear it.
> 
> I asked the retailer again, and they said again not to worry about it. *They're saying the sound is a pressure relief valve that is making the sound. They say the machine needs about 6 seconds to build up pressure and during that time the pressure is best kept below 6 bar. If it's higher than that during the build-up phase, that's when the valves make the sound. When everything is built up, the sound indeed disappears. *
> 
> My technical knowledge is way too limited to understand whether this explanation actually makes sense, but I'm also still left with a quite ugly sound on my machine. The sound is most pronounced when I use a blind filter to backflush and have the GSP option switched off (so the machine goes to 9 bar immediately).
> 
> Here's a video with sound:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any thoughts on this? Anyone with a similar experience?
> 
> Dave, with all your technical knowledge, what do you think?


 I took the comment about a fix as being about this issue. My experience matches larsdekocks exactly.


----------



## cuprajake

View attachment 57354


----------



## DavecUK

I think that I have not seen a cogent explanation about the sound that makes any logical sense to me at this time. I do have some ideas...but I'm not going to share them here, or share them at all, until someone from Crem or a retailer gives me some information that makes sense....and then asks me.

Otherwise it's not exactly fair (on me) is it!


----------



## alexcs

Dave I wouldnt expect you to respond to the issue, just curious if it is an issue that has a fix, perhaps I can start talking to my dealer about it (who can then talk to Crem)


----------



## KevinCoffee

MHusa said:


> Hi Smorgo, I just finished writing my review of the machine (today in fact) @ WLL. I have been using the machine since mid April. I actually ordered a stainless steel cable from Bella Barista and had it shipped to the states because the one that WLL provided me was plastic. I plumbed it in about the last week in April. I have not had any issues. The one thing I notice is that when the solenoid kicks in because the reservoir is near empty, it adds about a fourth of a liter. Really small amount. I wish it would add more, but perhaps that is set-able with the firmware (Mine was sent with firmware 1.11). I have not found where I can adjust that, but at this point, happy there are no leak issues. I also added a pressure regulator in-line and dropped pressure down to about 2 bar.
> 
> I'm REALLY happy with the machine! I hope you like it.
> 
> I am using it with a water shutoff/leak detection kit from econetcontrols.com. The wired sensors I was using however kept tripping and shutting off the water. I have been working with the company and they have updated their software filters and believe they have fixed the problem. I have high confidence that if it isn't fixed they will keep working on it until they do. Very good company to deal with. They are about to ship out the updated product. All shipping back and forth has been covered by EcoNet Controls.





Cuprajake said:


> View attachment 57354


 Does this only affects the machines with profiling or all dual boiler Crem One machines?


----------



## larsdekock

Glad to see that I'm not the only one with the rattle sound, and I'd be even happier if Crem is really creating fix kits for this.

Dave, thanks for chiming in, and just to clarify, I'm using the levers properly. Really appreciate you first want to understand what the problem is. This is a more full version of what my reseller (Van Pommeren in The Netherlands) e-mailed me:

--------------------------

* The machine requires about 6 seconds pre-infusion below 6 bar to fill the circuit and pressurize it
* Below 6 seconds with pressures higher than 6 bar there is a light rattle due to the valves not yet being under pressure
* If you only let water through the group you can hear it for 8 seconds, then 80 ml has passed through the group and pressure has built to 6 bar
* If you brew without a profile and directly go up to 9 bar then around 6 bar you can hear the valves for a short time and then it goes away as everything is under pressure

What you're hearing is not the pump but a pressure valve that can handle this just fine. So there is no need to worry about the pump or about something else.

---------------------------

My backflushing video may confirm what they write, as you can see during the backflush pressure is not fully built up yet for a while, giving a rattle, and when the pressure is fully built up, the rattle goes away.






However, while this could be an explanation of what is happening, that does not solve the problem for me. As someone said, I haven't paid more than 2000 euros for a machine that screams for its life every time I use it.

And to answer someone else's question, when using Gradual Soft Preinfusion (GSP) or when using a profile that starts at lower pressure, the sound is a lot less pronounced and sometimes absent. That's probably because the pressure remains below 6 bar for the first 6 seconds, referring to Van Pommeren's explanation.

But again, explanation is not a solution. I want the sound gone.

Any more detailed info on the Crem fix-kit? Any e-mail or documentation from Crem I can pass on to Van Pommeren ?


----------



## alexcs

I've been advised that there exists a kit to rectify the ramp up noise issue mentioned by Lars for machines before serial number 11520060413.

This is a Crem supplied kit, and can be sourced via your retailer/dealer who need to communicate with Crem and arrange installation. EDIT: TSB 251 is the relevant technical service bulletin.

I obviously havent done this yet, will be discussing with my Australian retailer on Monday, will report back how it goes. (my serial number is lower than above).


----------



## DavecUK

@larsdekock I would like you to turn the service boiler off and leave it off...make coffees as normal, just no milk drinks and see what happens.


----------



## Minetti

Here is the info we know so far.

From the technician at BB

Crem have acknowledged the problem by advising of Technical Bullettin 251

only machines before this serial number should be affected 11520060413. Any customer of Crem machine before this number should ask their seller to fit Technical Service Bulletin 251 to the Machine

The modification stops the boiler back feeding hot water into the pump and ultimately into the water reservoir. The problem fault can be intermittent so at times pump has no hot water through it and brew boiler is 100% full when you hear the gurgling popping noises this is an indication of a non full boiler.

The modification can be fitted at home with reasonable competence skills and basic tools but is difficult as it requires almost complete diss assembly of internals to access the pump out put assembly and replace it the pump is not changed just a new solenoid valve on pump outlet and a wiring harness modification


----------



## Minetti

People with the newer serial number still experience the noise, though, but we were told that it doesn't harm the machine. Just annoying.


----------



## Hulster

alexcs said:


> I've been advised that there exists a kit to rectify the ramp up noise issue mentioned by Lars for machines before serial number 11520060413.


 Are you sure about the serial? Mine has 12 digits. 11520060 seem to be the identical part. After 4 digits for me


----------



## MHusa

Just checked my S/N. Also 12 digits. Starts with 115191144xxx. WLL said they did something to the machine but didn't get into the specifics really and had to discuss with them about wanting it plumbed. I'll try to find out if they implemented Service Bulletin 251. Anyone know where a copy of that might exist on the internet Would like to see the details. If I find it on-line I'll attach it to a post.

Thanks for the youtube video larsdekock. I have not heard that sound, but I usually use gradual preinfusion around 8+ seconds, or I manually start at around 4 bar then go up to about 8 with my current beans.

I do have one recent issue with the machine now where the screen effectively goes dark after several hours of non use. Seems to happen when it is ON or OFF using the programmed 7 day on/off function. Problem will correct itself if I cycle the power toggle switch. Using the Barista dial or the buttons on the corner of the display does not make a difference. There are a few pixels that stay "on" in the middle of the display, enough to know that I hit a button that normally would change the display, but it's unreadable. Anyone else experience this? See pic below.


----------



## larsdekock

My serial number is 115200604279, so this seems to be just after the 11520060413 mark. That would imply the fix kit is already in my machine.

In the Telegram group reference is made to Technical Service Bulletin 251 that discusses the problem and mentions that newer machines have a fix. In the chat it is described as "an additional valve that is to prevent void in boiler and back pressure causing reservoir or pump having pressure from steam boiler back siphoning into the cold water system. The kit is a new valve block assembly and additional solenoid valve to prevent this problem."

I'm a bit disappointed because it seems my machine supposedly already has the fix, but it doesn't exactly solve my problem. I can use the machine with no problem, but the sound really takes away from the experience and in my opinion should not exist on a machine with this kind of price tag.


----------



## smorgo

Well, that's a bugger!

I spoke to BB earlier and they've reached the tipping point with Crem, removing them from sale (I presume, rather, not ordering any more) until they've resolved their issues. They were not happy with Crem, at all.

They advised to look elsewhere, such as the Lelit Bianca Dual Boiler - Paddle, VBM Domobar Super Digital Dual Boiler, Profitec 700 Dual Boiler or ECM Synchronika Dual Boiler.

I know this is a Crem thread, but I wonder if I could get your advice on the best alternative?

I'm coming from a pimped Gaggia Classic and looking to make that 'once in a lifetime' upgrade (ha!), within a £2.5k budget.

I'm not experienced with, and don't know if I'd benefit from, pressure profiling. To be honest, the feature that was driving me towards this machine was the metering by volume. That would be very helpful, as I don't drink enough coffee to maintain an entirely consistent grind from one cup to the next.

I do want dual boiler and a rotary pump. I'm not overly blessed with space, but did check that the Crem would fit.

I figure this is posted in the wrong place, but since I'm specifically looking for an alternative to the Crem, I thought I'd chance my arm.


----------



## DavecUK

Bianca's very good as are ECM. Bianca has tank options, which might help in certain spaces.

Pity about Crem, beautiful machine and mine works fine?


----------



## smorgo

DavecUK said:


> Bianca's very good as are ECM. Bianca has tank options, which might help in certain spaces.
> 
> Pity about Crem, beautiful machine and mine works fine?


 That's great, Dave. The Bianca is very tempting at the moment. I'll read up on the ECM.

Done. The Bianca, it is.


----------



## CoffeeTim

It's sad to hear all the stories. I'm actually very tempted to get myself a Crem LFPP in the near future. Looks like I have to wait a little longer for them to fix their issues. If I can't wait, I might just go ahead with Bianca.


----------



## DavecUK

@CoffeeTim Bianca is a very nice machine, I actually purchased the prototype.


----------



## CoffeeTim

DavecUK said:


> @CoffeeTim Bianca is a very nice machine, I actually purchased the prototype.


 Thanks @DavecUK. I was determined to buy Bianca before i came across Crem One and your video.


----------



## larsdekock

@DavecUK you asked me to try for the rattle sound with the service boiler turned off. I assume that's the same thing as the steam boiler. Switching it off doesn't seem to make much of a difference.

Here's a video of me brewing an espresso with GSP-mode on (so no special profile), and the service boiler turned off and cooled down. The rattle is still there, although it is not very loud, and it disappears once pressure has slowly been built up. 




And here's a video of me flushing the machine with GSP-mode on, and the service boiler turned off. The machine is screaming in pain. 




Yesterday I brewed an older dark roast and used a profile starting with high pressure and tapering off. The machine rattled and screamed.

My reseller in The Netherlands, Van Pommeren, has told me again that the rattle is nothing to worry about, and as long as I build up pressure gradually it shouldn't be there. Not only is that not true (there's still a rattle when using GSP or profiles that start with low pressure), but IMO I should also be able to use profiles that start with full pressure without the machine screaming like it's about to die.

The espresso tastes great but I really feel this should not be happening.

Dave any thoughts from your end would be really appreciated.


----------



## DavecUK

@larsdekock Mine does not make a noise as you can see in the videos...I thought it might be preheat related even if the lever wasn't left up after the shot...but it seems not. I don't know?


----------



## Ruud

I wanted to correct some misinformation here.

In this forum, some people mention that the CREM technical service bulletin TSB251 fixes the ramp up noise. But it doesn't; TSB251 fixes a problem regarding the possibility of hot water flowing from the boiler back to the water tank.


----------



## CoffeeTim

So, there is still no solution from Crem?


----------



## Ruud

I don't think they consider it a problem. My dealer said there is a machine from another brand, with a good reputation (I believe it was a Rocket), that used the same gear pump. And it makes the same noise while pressure is ramping up.


----------



## Ruud

Btw guys, I created a Google Sheet to make creating pressure profiles more visual (a diagram is shown for each profile, just like on the machine).

It will render into a 'IMPONE.TXT' file, which you can import into your machine.

You can find it here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1do_GE_xsbPbsj_q4buXo0tAatkvv28axT_aQzgCXeoc/edit?usp=sharing

I shared it as read-only, but you can make a copy of it in your own Google Drive that you can edit.


----------



## CoffeeTim

Ruud said:


> I don't think they consider it a problem. My dealer said there is a machine from another brand, with a good reputation (I believe it was a Rocket), that used the same gear pump. And it makes the same noise while pressure is ramping up.


 But when some of it makes that sound and some don't, that's inconsistency and it is a problem...


----------



## Ruud

CoffeeTim said:


> But when some of it makes that sound and some don't, that's inconsistency and it is a problem...


 True. But the only example I know for sure that doesn't have the ramp up noise, is the machine that Dave Corbey reviewed. And that was a pre-production specimen, I believe.

Maybe we can do a quick poll to get some numbers.


----------



## DavecUK

Ruud said:


> True. But the only example I know for sure that doesn't have the ramp up noise, is the machine that Dave Corbey reviewed. And that was a pre-production specimen, I believe.


 As I have said many times, I can force it to make that noise...IF, I introduce a void into the brew boiler. This is done by not lowering the lever a second or two *before* the profile stops. Or, have very low pressure e.g. 1 bar, at the end of a profile. However, mine did not make that nose at all as you saw in the many unedited shot videos I did.

My guess is that if they bypass the preheat HX in the service boiler..a lot of problems will go away. They don't need the preheat, the brew boiler is more than large enough. I did tell them this, but they seemed wedded to having preheat. As a home user, the mod would probably be fairly simple to do.

Machines like the Vesuvius have preheat but of my design and very different to the systems used on the Izzo and Crem, to ensure no problems.


----------



## CoffeeTim

Thanks @DavecUK. But I don't understand what do you meant by bypass the HX? Does Crem One LFPP has brew water run into the Steam boiler like Breville Dual Boiler? U mean having an external tubing to bypass the line from the pump into the brew boiler without entering the steamboiler?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@CoffeeTim I do believe this is exactly what he means.


----------



## CoffeeTim

Somehow, modding it means voiding the warranty as well. Maybe I will stick to what @alexcs suggested to me in the youtube. He realize when doing the profiling and GSP, the noise can be avoided.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

CoffeeTim said:


> Somehow, modding it means voiding the warranty as well. Maybe I will stick to what @alexcs suggested to me in the youtube. He realize when doing the profiling and GSP, the noise can be avoided.


 Why don't you follow Dave's advice on how not to introduce a void in the brew boiler, by simply stopping the shot before the profile stops it?


----------



## longpvo

If anyone is searching for the in tank water filter, google either of the following:

Aquis Water Filter Quartz (Part Number: Q06163022) or Aquis Tank Water Filter

all made by Claris® / Claroswiss®


----------



## CoffeeTim

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Why don't you follow Dave's advice on how not to introduce a void in the brew boiler, by simply stopping the shot before the profile stops it?


 Of course I will follow Dave's recommendation. But it's good to know what's the root of the issue.


----------



## Ruud

CoffeeTim said:


> Somehow, modding it means voiding the warranty as well. Maybe I will stick to what @alexcs suggested to me in the youtube. He realize when doing the profiling and GSP, the noise can be avoided.


 I can confirm that that the pressure ramp-up noise can be avoided (to a large extend) by using 10 or even 15 seconds GSP, or by using a profile that slowly builds up pressure:


----------



## Hulster

DavecUK said:


> As I have said many times, I can force it to make that noise...IF, I introduce a void into the brew boiler. This is done by not lowering the lever a second or two *before* the profile stops. Or, have very low pressure e.g. 1 bar, at the end of a profile. However, mine did not make that nose at all as you saw in the many unedited shot videos I did.
> 
> My guess is that if they bypass the preheat HX in the service boiler..a lot of problems will go away. They don't need the preheat, the brew boiler is more than large enough. I did tell them this, but they seemed wedded to having preheat. As a home user, the mod would probably be fairly simple to do.
> 
> Machines like the Vesuvius have preheat but of my design and very different to the systems used on the Izzo and Crem, to ensure no problems.


 Just one other thing. Do you meanwhile know more about the changes to Ver 1.11? Still the last version?


----------



## Ruud

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Why don't you follow Dave's advice on how not to introduce a void in the brew boiler, by simply stopping the shot before the profile stops it?


 I don't know if I have a void in the brew boiler (how can I tell?). I never leave the lever up until after the end of the profile.

If I would have a void in the brew boiler, how do I get rid of it?


----------



## CoffeeTim

> 5 minutes ago, Ruud said:
> 
> I can confirm that that the pressure ramp-up noise can be avoided (to a large extend) by using 10 or even 15 seconds GSP, or by using a profile that slowly builds up pressure:


 Thanks mate.


----------



## Ruud

CoffeeTim said:


> Thanks mate.


 Yeah, I really think GSP makes it much less of an issue. I always have it on; it makes shots taste better.

The times that you would not use GSP or a slow ramp-up profile, would be very rare imo.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Ruud said:


> I don't know if I have a void in the brew boiler (how can I tell?). I never leave the lever up until after the end of the profile.
> 
> If I would have a void in the brew boiler, how do I get rid of it?


 I don't have your machine. But a void in the brew boiler can be filled by drawing some water through the group, on any machine.


----------



## cuprajake

Not everyone wants to pre induse for 15 second on every brew though do they


----------



## velezmey

@DaveCDoes anyone have the reference to know how to adjust the hidden menu? There are symbols that I don't know what they mean or how to adjust them.


----------



## Ruud

You can download the Technical Manual here (uploaded by @DavecUK)

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/files/file/11-crem-one-technical-manual/?do=embed


----------



## velezmey

OK thank you, in Spain does not come the manual so complete. The photo I have put of the temperature at 9 degrees. I think I understood in the DaveC review that I had it at 7 degrees and that it was the temperature difference in which the coffee boiler is with the temperature that goes outside by the E61 group.


----------



## benjamiah

Hi Folks,

Ive uploaded Firmware 1.13 which has instructions, file and change log in download section. All working fine on my unit

Cheers


----------



## velezmey

Hello what changes have you seen with respect to the previous Firmware? How did you find out about the update? Here in Spain I think it should be Crem who announces it to us


----------



## Ruud

benjamiah said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Ive uploaded Firmware 1.13 which has instructions, file and change log in download section. All working fine on my unit
> 
> Cheers


 @benjamiah Thx for sharing! Where did u get it from?


----------



## velezmey

I have updated what it says in relation to being able to lower the 12v in the pump, 12v is the minimum and you can not lower it more, in relation to the noise when it is at maximum power it continues in the same way as before. Maybe it will improve somewhat in the profiles at high pressures. I still have to try it well.


----------



## benjamiah

Crem released the update in September

My dealer gave it to me but I won't say who in case they think I shouldn't of

open the second pdf in download section - there a vast change log there that shows all the changes


----------



## velezmey

benjamiah said:


> Crem released the update in September
> 
> My dealer gave it to me but I won't say who in case they think I shouldn't of
> 
> open the second pdf in download section - there a vast change log there that shows all the changes


 Thank you, if I have viewed the pdf and installed and updated it. Has the noise in your machine improved somewhat?


----------



## Ricky1

velezmey said:


> Thank you, if I have viewed the pdf and installed and updated it. Has the noise in your machine improved somewhat?


 Nope


----------



## Oscar van Aalten

Hi all,
Got my LFPP this week.

I am new to pressure profiling.
Is there somewhere, where I can download good starter profiles.
If i got a good starting point, i can adjust them to my tast.

Maybe something for light, medium and dark roast.
I already copied the lever profile from elsewhere in this forum.

I am happy to share mine if I got a good set of profiles.

Yours truly Oscar


----------



## Oscar van Aalten

Hi all,

This week i got my LFPP.

On this forum at the download section I see new firmware.

Got some questions about that:

- How do you check the firmware installed on your machine?
- Is it save to update your firmware yourself?
- How to update your firmware.
- What is fixed in the new firmware.
- Where to go, to get the latest (save / manufacturer approved) firmware and release updates?

Thanks in advance

Oscar


----------



## Ruud

Oscar van Aalten said:


> Hi all,
> Got my LFPP this week.
> 
> I am new to pressure profiling.
> Is there somewhere, where I can download good starter profiles.
> If i got a good starting point, i can adjust them to my tast.
> 
> Maybe something for light, medium and dark roast.
> I already copied the lever profile from elsewhere in this forum.
> 
> I am happy to share mine if I got a good set of profiles.
> 
> Yours truly Oscar


 @Oscar van Aalten I created a Google sheet that you can use to create profiles and export them. Please see the instructions inside.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1do_GE_xsbPbsj_q4buXo0tAatkvv28axT_aQzgCXeoc/edit?usp=sharing

For the new firmware, you have to create 'high-res' profiles (1 ml per stage, instead of 4 ml per stage, as in de older firmware versions). I also created a sheet for that:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lYFHbGVHm_zCg8OjTOvghc_tFi_OQEiDr5muWJX_gC4/edit?usp=sharing


----------



## Ruud

Oscar van Aalten said:


> Hi all,
> 
> This week i got my LFPP.
> 
> On this forum at the download section I see new firmware.
> 
> Got some questions about that:
> 
> - How do you check the firmware installed on your machine?
> - Is it save to update your firmware yourself?
> - How to update your firmware.
> - What is fixed in the new firmware.
> - Where to go, to get the latest (save / manufacturer approved) firmware and release updates?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Oscar


 @Oscar van Aalten

- The FW version is displayed on the screen when you power up.

- I've done the FW update myself, and I know other have as well. Can't guarantee success, but many have done successfully.

- The instructions are included with the FW

- I think the improvements are also documented with the FW

- I haven't met anyone who knows the official download site from CREM, I don't think it exists. I think they provide the FW to the dealers. Sometimes someone on this forum gets it (e.g. from their dealer) and uploads it on this forum.


----------



## cuprajake

Does it stop the pump noise when updated


----------



## Ruud

Cuprajake said:


> Does it stop the pump noise when updated


 @Cuprajake Not completely, but I do believe they have reduced it.

When you go full pressure straight away, the pressure can only build up after the group head has filled up with water. This takes several seconds. This is when the machine would make the noise. The pressure wasn't built up yet, and some valve would rattle, because there was not enough pressure to stop the rattling.

What they seem to have done now, is that during the first 3-5 seconds or so, the pump doesn't go higher than approx. 8 bar (even if you've set a higher pressure), so the group head can fill a bit more quietly.

After those 3-5 seconds, the pump goes to the pressure you have set. By then, the group head has mostly filled up, so there's less of the noise.

You still hear the noise, but for a shorter period of time.


----------



## Hulster

Just one remark regarding the noise. Due to I was going to sell my old VBM I re-activated that for a few weeks to check all is ok. 
By that I realised how long a vibration pump need to build up full pressure. At least min 5 sec.
So why not taking the GSP min for that time? Further for me a softer ramp up will help to last things longer.

m2ct


----------



## cuprajake

The crem isnt a vibe pump tho is it?


----------



## Ruud

Cuprajake said:


> The crem isnt a vibe pump tho is it?


 @Cuprajake I think you're missing the point. Regardless of the type of pump, there's always a few seconds needed to fill the group head and build up pressure. So setting a few seconds of gradual pressure ramp up doesn't hurt your brew.


----------



## alexcs

Hi all

Recently updated to 1.13 firmware, having a bug where if I do a manual profile shot and save in one of the five slots, the profile isnt saved properly but seems to save the whole shot as 2.5bar.

Is anyone else experiencing this, am I doing anything wrong?

Cheers


----------



## Ruud

alexcs said:


> Hi all
> 
> Recently updated to 1.13 firmware, having a bug where if I do a manual profile shot and save in one of the five slots, the profile isnt saved properly but seems to save the whole shot as 2.5bar.
> 
> Is anyone else experiencing this, am I doing anything wrong?
> 
> Cheers


 Hi @alexcs, I'm on 1.13 as well, but I don't have this issue.

To make a manual profile shot, I:

1. Press the barista knob and set the starting pressure

2. Lift the lever

3. Adjust the pressure with the barista knob during the shot

4. Lower the lever

then, when prompted to save the manual profile, I:

5. Turn the barista knob to select the slot to save it in

6. Press the *barista knob* (not any of the buttons next to the screen) to save the manual profile (I think this is where you may not be doing the correct thing, because the constant 2,5 bar may be the default for an empty slot; not entirely sure though)

7. Press the Home button (top left) to exit to the main screen

To use it:

1. Turn the barista knob to select the right slot

2. Press the barista knob to use it

3. Lift the lever


----------



## alexcs

Hi thanks but am not a newbie, had my machine 18 months now. Only started after upgrading from 1.09.

Might have to reflash, its definitely not saving manual profile shots properly. Done a lot of testing over the last week.


----------



## Ruud

alexcs said:


> Hi thanks but am not a newbie, had my machine 18 months now. Only started after upgrading from 1.09.
> 
> Might have to reflash, its definitely not saving manual profile shots properly. Done a lot of testing over the last week.


 Good luck @alexcs!


----------



## MHusa

Hey all,

Just letting you know that I uploaded software version 1.11a (to the download area), which is an earlier version than 1.13 obviously, but just in case folks would like to revert if they are having issues with 1.13 as alexcs appears to be. I did not get any details on what 1.11a updated from 1.09, but have been using it since early summer 2021 and it appears to be working fine. I will, however probably update to 1.13, so thanks benjamiah for the software. Happy New Year everyone!


----------



## LosBados

alexcs said:


> Hi all
> 
> Recently updated to 1.13 firmware, having a bug where if I do a manual profile shot and save in one of the five slots, the profile isnt saved properly but seems to save the whole shot as 2.5bar.
> 
> Is anyone else experiencing this, am I doing anything wrong?
> 
> Cheers


 Hi,

I don't think you have a bug in your system.

If you go to your profile and click on K4 1 to 2 times, you will see that the scale will move like your profile. And to go back in the profile click K3 1 or 2 times. On the older version you did see the hole profile direct.

Best regards,


----------



## LosBados

Hi,

I have just a question regarding pluming the 2b PID-LRFPP.

Is it possible to make the inlet valve be open for a longer time, so that it can fill up the tank to at list 50%?

Not 10% as it is now.

Because that is making another problem for me right now.

The low water sensor will not always turn on, and open the inlet valve.

I think/hope it should be possible to make a setting under advanced settings for this.

But except from that, I just love the machine.

It is hard to not get a good Espresso 

Best regards,


----------



## LosBados

Hi,

I think that my Low water sensor, stopped working after I updated to 1.13 on my 2b PID-LRFPP.

So I will roll it back to see if it starts working again.

Best regards,


----------



## Ruud

LosBados said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have just a question regarding pluming the 2b PID-LRFPP.
> 
> Is it possible to make the inlet valve be open for a longer time, so that it can fill up the tank to at list 50%?
> 
> Not 10% as it is now.
> 
> Because that is making another problem for me right now.
> 
> The low water sensor will not always turn on, and open the inlet valve.
> 
> I think/hope it should be possible to make a setting under advanced settings for this.
> 
> But except from that, I just love the machine.
> 
> It is hard to not get a good Espresso
> 
> Best regards,


 Hi @LosBados, you can set the time that the tank will refill in the service menu (the technical menu, accessible from the power off screen).

I believe the default is 15s, but you can increase it to 30s.


----------



## LosBados

Ruud said:


> Hi @LosBados, you can set the time that the tank will refill in the service menu (the technical menu, accessible from the power off screen).
> 
> I believe the default is 15s, but you can increase it to 30s.
> 
> View attachment 62175


 Hi,

Thanks for the help

I will try that.

The problem is that I don't get info from the sensor on that the water is empty in the fresh Water tank now.

And that is making the valve not opening now.


----------



## LosBados

So now I have tested with 1.11a and the sensor on the fresh water tank works now again 

And the valve open up for the plumed water line🥳

But I would like to get more water in to the fresh water tank, than I get now.

I'm thinking of moving the water sensor up a bit on the Fresh water tank.

In that case, it will newer be total empty before it start to refill


----------



## Ruud

LosBados said:


> So now I have tested with 1.11a and the sensor on the fresh water tank works now again
> 
> And the valve open up for the plumed water line🥳
> 
> But I would like to get more water in to the fresh water tank, than I get now.
> 
> I'm thinking of moving the water sensor up a bit on the Fresh water tank.
> 
> In that case, it will newer be total empty before it start to refill


 @LosBados have you tried setting this setting to 30s?



Ruud said:


> Hi @LosBados, you can set the time that the tank will refill in the service menu (the technical menu, accessible from the power off screen).
> 
> I believe the default is 15s, but you can increase it to 30s.
> 
> View attachment 62175


----------



## LosBados

Ruud said:


> @LosBados have you tried setting this setting to 30s?


 Yes


----------



## LosBados

Hi,

I have a question regarding a setting In the Service menu on V1.11a.

There is one setting I can not find info on.

I can only go between the letter A and B.

And I don't know what is the difference between them?


----------



## LosBados

I got it!

It's a setting for B1 models


----------



## LosBados

Hi,

Now I have fixed the refill of the fresh water tank when plumed to a waterline.

You just turn the Capacitive Sensor that sens if you are low on water upside down, and do a small mod on the bracket that holds it.

You need to make a cut in the plastic bracket for the cable and take off two pegs.

And you have to reroute the cable.

The mod took approx 30 min including taking the machine apart and put it back together.

Now I don't get air in to the system, when it starts to do the refill.

Because the water level is too low/empty.

Now it starts to refill, where it used to stop before the mod.

So it went from filling 10-15% to 50-60% of water in the fresh water tank.

Best regards,


----------



## gregc

Hi there I have the profiler version which is on firmware 1.09 and I'm trying to upgrade to 1.13. I have the FHAND.bin on a formated USB drive and placed it in the port at the back of the machine but the machine doesn't seem to see it as it just boots up to the current firmware. Am I missing something here? thanks


----------



## LosBados

gregc said:


> Hi there I have the profiler version which is on firmware 1.09 and I'm trying to upgrade to 1.13. I have the FHAND.bin on a formated USB drive and placed it in the port at the back of the machine but the machine doesn't seem to see it as it just boots up to the current firmware. Am I missing something here? thanks


 Hi,

It sounds like there is something wrong with the USB drive. How big is it?

Because I don't think the machine can handle more than an 8 GB USB drive.

Best regards,


----------



## gregc

LosBados said:


> Hi,
> 
> It sounds like there is something wrong with the USB drive. How big is it?
> 
> Because I don't think the machine can handle more than an 8 GB USB drive.
> 
> Best regards,


 thanks for the reply, it's 32gb so i'll try a smaller size


----------



## LosBados

gregc said:


> thanks for the reply, it's 32gb so i'll try a smaller size


 Good luck.


----------



## Asafb

Hi, I'm the owner of the LFPP for the last year.
Unfortunately, my machine arrived broken (mostly aesthetic) and I have the option to replace it with any other machine.
I'm thinking about switching to Lelit Bianca or ECM Synchronika + flow control kit. the reason behind this is the fact that currently, Crem has some issues with delivering new machines and they keep me waiting for a restock.
I honestly LOVES the pressure control in my Crem, do you think that flow control will grant me the same result? I have nothing to do with the programmatically pressure control, I'm always at manual, just considering the flow vs pressure (gear) control.

in addition, do you find cons pros of choosing ECM against Crem?


----------



## martinhjorth

gregc said:


> Hi there I have the profiler version which is on firmware 1.09 and I'm trying to upgrade to 1.13. I have the FHAND.bin on a formated USB drive and placed it in the port at the back of the machine but the machine doesn't seem to see it as it just boots up to the current firmware. Am I missing something here? thanks


I recently got my Profiler (LFPP) as well, and have been looking around for a way to upgrade the firmware. Can I ask where you got your FHAND.bin file? It seems that Crem has made it difficult to obtain.


----------



## LosBados

martinhjorth said:


> I recently got my Profiler (LFPP) as well, and have been looking around for a way to upgrade the firmware. Can I ask where you got your FHAND.bin file? It seems that Crem has made it difficult to obtain.


Hi,
You can download it on this link Crem One Dual Boiler Firmware 1.13
And remember that you can not have a bigger USB drive then 8 GB.


----------

