# For puck sakes!



## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

So I picked up a second-hand LI about a month ago and after getting my head around the differences was pulling consistently great shots. In fact, I was finding it very difficult to pull a bad shot!

Worked my way through a couple of kilos of Rave beans and recently placed another order. Happy days.

Something I had noticed though was that spent pucks where looking very messy on top, despite there being no obvious channeling with a naked PF. Also it seemed like a lot of grinds where getting all over the place in the group head, even past the gasket.

The shots were tasting great however, so I didn't worry about it too much until the other night when I decided to remove the shower screen and inspect.

Doing so revealed that I must have used too much lube when re-assembling the group head as some had 'splurged' out of the sides and even made its way onto the shower screen, hence the messy-looking pucks.

Easy to fix right? Gave it all a good clean and popped the shower screen back on.

Since then 4 things have happened:

1) No longer getting messy pucks.

2) Seem to be getting more crema.

3) Where I was dosing 15.8g with what I assume is the stock double basket and getting dry(ish) pucks, the same dose with Signature Blend is yielding wet pucks, even 15 minutes after the shot is pulled.

4) Every shot now has a terrible sour aftertaste!

Remedied the wet pucks by dosing up to about 16.2g and using a slightly coarser grind but shots still have an awful, lingering sour aftertaste.

Using the same beans, same routine (apart from slight increase in dose, approx 27g out in 27s, 6s pre-infusion, tamping marginally harder than the weight of the tamper, pulling every shot just after the red light goes out).

The only thing that's different is that I'm currently using Evian instead of Volvic. Surely that couldn't be the cause?

Another thing that I've noticed is that due to the low clearance of the shower screen combined with a light tamp, there aren't enough grinds in the basket to do a nsew sweep as they're just below the rim. Are other Londiniumites experiencing this also?

And finally, does anyone think it would be advisable to remove the group head and make sure there's no lube where it shouldn't be?


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Why not try asking on the Londinium forum pages? Goto 'support' on the Londinium site


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sami said:


> The only thing that's different is that I'm currently using Evian instead of Volvic. Surely that couldn't be the cause?


Quite apart from anything else, this rings alarm bells, Evian is very hard with loads of bicarbonate, I wouldn't use it to brew coffee.

Cup some coffee with Volvic & Evian side by side.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Change back to volvic and repeat shots ...eliminate the effect of the water first


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

CamV6 said:


> Why not try asking on the Londinium forum pages? Goto 'support' on the Londinium site


Have posted there also...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sami said:


> Remedied the wet pucks by dosing up to about 16.2g and using a slightly coarser grind but shots still have an awful, lingering sour aftertaste.
> 
> Using the same beans, same routine (apart from slight increase in dose, approx 27g out in 27s, 6s pre-infusion, tamping marginally harder than the weight of the tamper, pulling every shot just after the red light goes out).


The dryness, or otherwise, of the pucks is more related to puck depth than grind. If your shots taste good it doesn't mater how wet/dry the puck. Grinding coarser & updosing could be a factor in the sourness.

Is that 6s preinfusion, plus 27s, or 27s including preinfusion (sounds short).


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

Not including the pre-infusion (so cutting at about 33/34s). The shots were sour with the same dose/grind...


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

MWJB said:


> The dryness, or otherwise, of the pucks is more related to puck depth than grind. If your shots taste good it doesn't mater how wet/dry the puck. (sounds short).


Something satisfying about a nice dry puck that comes out cleanly though!


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

It does seem that the water is the first port of call. I still find it hard to believe that different bottled waters could make espresso taste that drastically different - we'll see!


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

MWJB said:


> The dryness, or otherwise, of the pucks is more related to puck depth than grind. If your shots taste good it doesn't mater how wet/dry the puck.


Presumably the grinds contacting the shower screen before the shot progresses might have an effect on the extraction (be it good or bad), in which there might might be a situation where it is preferable to switch the basket size down to achieve this?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Basket size will affect the weight of the dose, but you should be aiming for a relatively uniform headspace between shower screen & puck across baskets, grounds shouldn't be tight up against the shower screen.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

16.2g in a stock basket won't leave much headroom


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Sami said:


> I still find it hard to believe that different bottled waters could make espresso taste that drastically different - we'll see!


Its c.90% of the finished drink and the only solvent you're using


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

OK so bought a load of Volvic this morning and ran about 3 litres through the machine (I know, it's shamefully wasteful) before making the usual flat white. The boiler has a capacity of 2.3 litres and it will probably take a couple more days of normal use to completely purge the levels of dissolved solids found in Evian, but I figured this would be enough to identify if water was causing the problem.

Dropped the dose back down to 15.8g to keep variables the same as before.

I made the following observations:

* Pulling the shot, it looked like there was less crema.

* Got the puck out after about 4 minutes and it was dry, which is interesting as the same dose yesterday had yielded a wet puck after 18 minutes.

* Boom! That mingin' aftertaste is gone, and the sweetness and caramel notes are back (to stay).

Well, it's certainly been an interesting lesson, and I hope others will benefit from it.

I think that it's not the taste of the dissolved products themselves that are affecting the result, which was my previous assumption. They are altering the many chemical reactions that are taking place during the extraction process; evident in the amount of crema, the dryness of the puck, and in terms of taste, the difference can be as contrasting as night and day.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

How long before some company starts marketing 'espresso water, specially formulated to give you the very best tasting espresso.'


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dylan said:


> How long before some company starts marketing 'espresso water, specially formulated to give you the very best tasting espresso.'


Perhaps a limited market but a really good idea if you could make it deliverable ( @xpenno )


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Perhaps a limited market but a really good idea if you could make it deliverable ( @xpenno )


The more I look at it the more it hurts my head, I've recently been reading about chlorides and how they leach metal from your boiler, it's a real minefield I tell ya!

There was a company that sold 2 bottles of additives one that added hardness and one alkalinity you then add to RO water, however it was nothing more than you can buy and make yourself.

P.s. there is no perfect water for coffee.


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

Perhaps not a perfect water, but certainly water could be optimised to bring out specific traits eg sweetness...


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Sami said:


> Perhaps not a perfect water, but certainly water could be optimised to bring out specific traits eg sweetness...


I'm all ears


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

It might be useful if we can identify a 'datum' water, one that's easily & widely available, that gives a known, ball-park result, to reduce variables when troubleshooting...well, if we haven't already with Volvic? ;-)


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

MWJB said:


> It might be useful if we can identify a 'datum' water, one that's easily & widely available, that gives a known, ball-park result, to reduce variables when troubleshooting...well, if we haven't already with Volvic? ;-)


Isn't Ashbeck up there among the ones considered the best?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

MWJB said:


> It might be useful if we can identify a 'datum' water, one that's easily & widely available, that gives a known, ball-park result, to reduce variables when troubleshooting...well, if we haven't already with Volvic? ;-)


Personally I would say Volvic as well, it's easily available and it closest to spec as I've seen in a bottle.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Dylan said:


> Isn't Ashbeck up there among the ones considered the best?


I dislike Ashbeck, it's horrible stuff. Low TDS and hardness result in unbalanced brews and over-hyped acidity.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Xpenno said:


> I dislike Ashbeck, it's horrible stuff. Low TDS and hardness result in unbalanced brews and over-hyped acidity.


I haven't experimented with water at all, having really soft tap water. Was just one of the water names I seemed to remember coming up.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Dylan said:


> I haven't experimented with water at all, having really soft tap water. Was just one of the water names I seemed to remember coming up.


Not having a go dude, it does come up a lot so could just be me


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Xpenno said:


> Not having a go dude, it does come up a lot so could just be me


Haha, dont worry, didn't take it that way! You haven't offended my water sensibilities


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

Dylan said:


> Haha, dont worry, didn't take it that way! You haven't offended my water sensibilities


Glad that's all cleared up. We wouldn't want this thread ending on a sour note.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Sami said:


> Glad that's all cleared up. We wouldn't want this thread ending on a sour note.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Would I notice a big difference if I went to Volvic from Ashbeck in my Classic? I use nothing but Ashbeck as it was recommended (and cheap which is a bonus)


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Xpenno said:


> I dislike Ashbeck, it's horrible stuff. Low TDS and hardness result in unbalanced brews and over-hyped acidity.


Its better than Brum tap water , lol


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## fransg (Jan 4, 2013)

Rhys said:


> Would I notice a big difference if I went to Volvic from Ashbeck in my Classic?


There is one way to find out.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I've used Ashbeck and Volvic (depending on availability) and while I preferred the Volvic (a bit sweeter tasting was my impression) it wasn't night and day. Less than the sort of difference you could equally attribute to grind or prep. But as frans says, the only way to see if it's worth the few extra pennies is to give it a go and see if you notice an improvement. Maybe ask your other half or some friends of they can tell, just to avoid the placebo effect?


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I'm the only one here that drinks coffee, so that rules that one out. Might try a bottle with some light roast, both as espro and French press..


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