# Beginners set-up conundrum



## MPMLeeds (Sep 27, 2020)

Long time listener, first time caller.

After a decent amount of time, I've finally convinced my wife that an espresso machine and grinder are essential kitchen apparatus.

As somewhat of an over-thinker, I've already been on quite the journey in terms of what to purchase, options being, in no particular order:

1, new Gaggia Classic Pro - £400, Eureka Mignon - £350

2, 2nd Hand Gaggia Classic with mods -£250/£300, Niche Zero - £500

3, La Pavoni Europiccola - £300?, Niche Zero - £500

When I started reading the forum, I was about to buy option 1, but after more reading, I think option 2 is the more sensible option, as now I'm aware of PIDs and OPVs, I can only imagine I'll want them both.

I can't get past how much I like the appearance of the La Pavoni, but I'm a little concerned as someone with no experience of making espresso that I will quickly run in to a lack of skill.

Thoughts, views, council all welcome!


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## MPMLeeds (Sep 27, 2020)

Sorry, should have also said, the machine will be used to make circa 4 shots a day, with the occasional milk steaming for flat whites/hot chocolates


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## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

Hello there, nice to see someone thinking about the LaPav. I am sure there is a learning curve there and a possible annoyance in workflow (capacity for several pours is limited, but 4 a day within limits). The beauty is the silence - no vibration pump 'buzz' and pretty small foot print and the satisfaction you get from pouring something using your own senses - no pumps, no springs. They IMO look great too. Look / ask @Rhys he jumped from Classic to LaPav before he went utterly esoteric! My first espresso machine was a Classic (in 2001) preceded by moka pots (try one) and percolators (former good, latter maybe not). The Classic is still running to this day in my daughters flat.

Looks don't make the coffee though - might surprise you with what you read here sometimes - you're best baring in mind that your tastes buds are the judge and your taste in coffee will likely not match other peoples - it is a big world of flavours out there.

Grinders...if you're set on espresso hand grinders will grind you down. Even the top ones I would wager are not used frequently (I have MBK hand grinders for my mainstay and know there are better perhaps but the brewed coffee is on track) . I have no experience of the niche, but based on reviews and user experience here there is little to argue against it (I don't have one), its apparent versatility makes me feel I have lost touch and should rationalise my ginders.

Wait for some opinions, but LaPav and Niche sounds the winning combo to me, but you will need to put in the effort to learn.


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## L2en (Jun 10, 2018)

I decided to go for Niche/La Pavoni combo. Not a complete beginner, I have had my Silvia for about six years and even with basic grinder I did have a lot of success. However, as I decided to upgrade the grinder, I want to change the machine as well. I was thinking Sage Bambino for the simplicity, but La Pav is just my long term favourite, so I will go for that. I'm the only coffee drinker in the house so the workflow is not a problem.

Maybe also look at Lelit, they do have some interesting options with PID and pressure gauge already included.


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## OliG (Jul 14, 2015)

Niche and La Pav here.

Recently upgraded to the Niche from a Mazzer Super Jolly and I've had the La pav since Xmas after having a Gaggia Classic for around 5 years.

The La Pav is brilliant. I probably make 3 or 4 coffees a day on it but never more than 2 at a time so the temperature stability issues don't bother me at present.

For a machine thats so simple with such a small footprint and quiet operation it can't be beaten.

It takes a bit of practice but you can be pulling decent shots pretty quickly.


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## matted (Sep 30, 2019)

Another more economical option is sage DTP (approx150 used) and a decent hand grinder such as a feldgrind 2 ( approx 110 ish)

This set up covers more shots per day than you describe. For me and mine anyway at about 6 drinks a day, sometimes more.


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## allyburns (Sep 27, 2020)

I'm going through the exact same conundrum as you. Last month I knew nothing, now I don't want anything less than a machine with a PID and 58mm Portafilter! I feel I'm in a cult!

I have ordered a white Niche Zero, and had enough stress choosing between black and white! I ordered the white, but keep seeing the black one everywhere, like the above photo by @OliG Such a #firstworldproblem! 😂 Would you choose black or white and why?

I'm trying to get a Lelit Victoria at the moment, but awaiting order confirmation. Here are the things from it's feature list that I like:



Multidirectional steam/water wand (I like to make a Latte first thing)


Back lit manometer for coffee pressure (this looks very cool!)


LCC - New Lelit electronic control system (a touch of gadgetry in a classic looking machine)


58mm filterholder with ergonomic handle and exclusive Coffee Slide (convinced by reading the forums why 58mm is best, for accessories as well as flavour)


Brushed stainless steel appliance body (Like the industrial look)


3 way solenoid valve to dry up the coffee powder


300 ml brass boiler (250ml would do but it bigger might improve temperature stability?)


Programmable pre-infusion (interested in learning more about pre-infusion)


Stand-by according to CEI EN 50564 norm (This might be bad, might stop me turning it on with a smart plug?)


James Hoffman has probably cost me a fortune! Last week I thought £200 was a lot for a grinder and now somehow spending £500 on a grinder seems an easy decision!

He seemed to be quite impressed with the Lelit in his test, although he should have tested one with a PID for a better comparison.

If the Lelit order is not confirmed and I can't get this model, I'll be back to the drawing board for a 58mm machine with PID (manometer a plus too, even though I'm not sure how I'd use it to dial in my espresso, I'm new to it all and will just be timing the shot and adjusting grind)

Just wanted to say I know how you feel about the choices, I feel like I'm at a Coffee Anonymous meeting and got a load off my chest 🤣


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## MPMLeeds (Sep 27, 2020)

Thank you @mattedpart of the deal with my wife is an electric grinder, as we have a Porlex tall hand grinder which frankly drives her insane.

@OliGyour set up looks great, what model LaPav is it and what mods if any have you made?

Same question to you @L2en, might get overwhelmed just looking for options in the world of LaPav...

@allyburnsi watched the comparison video Hoffman did, but I think that was a Lelit Anna, so I'll watch the review of the Victoria too


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## OliG (Jul 14, 2015)

MPMLeeds said:


> @OliGyour set up looks great, what model LaPav is it and what mods if any have you made?


 Its a post millenium europiccola. The only modifications are the Pressure profiling kit from coffee sensor and 1 hole steam tip. Along with the wooden handles.

I keep looking at the Lelit MaraX as I've fancied one for a while but just can't bring myself to spend anymore money this year 😂


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@allyburns - I would skip the Victoria, it does a strange group burp vent preinfusion then ramps up the pressure so you lose the first drips plus potentially impacting the puck. Shame about that as it looks like it could have been a fab competition beating machine otherwise. 🙄

Cheapest way to get preinfusion (without getting a Sage) or flow profiling control is a second hand manual lever like a la Pav or a used e61 with a paddle kit.


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## allyburns (Sep 27, 2020)

Northern_Monkey said:


> @allyburns - I would skip the Victoria, it does a strange group burp vent preinfusion then ramps up the pressure so you lose the first drips plus potentially impacting the puck. Shame about that as it looks like it could have been a fab competition beating machine otherwise. 🙄
> 
> Cheapest way to get preinfusion (without getting a Sage) or flow profiling control is a second hand manual lever like a la Pav or a used e61 with a paddle kit.


 If I wasn't bothered about pre-infusion do you think the Victoria is okay? To be honest I won't miss what I haven't tasted yet, and for some reason really like the look of the machine (as well as it having the features I was after)


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

Agree it looks nice but It is pricey though. You could go cheaper for a used Gaggia Classic or Silvia and get a PID for cheaper, or the Mara-x isn't that much higher and is a better machine overall.


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## MPMLeeds (Sep 27, 2020)

I'll have a sleep on it, but I think my plan of action will be to order a Niche, and keep a look out here for a well cared for Europiccola

Any tips for finding one? I've seen brass coloured versions before, is that a purely aesthetic thing?


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## allikat (Jan 27, 2020)

The Niche is a great choice, it is designed for single dosing where you pre-weigh your beans and grind the amount you put in.

If you're at all technical, then a used Gaggia Classic, La Pavoni or Rancilio Sylvia are brilliant choices. They're easy to fix up, and there's both a good supply of parts and the community support to make them as good as they possibly can be.


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## MPMLeeds (Sep 27, 2020)

Thanks @allikatmuch appreciated, time to start the search for a machine


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