# Time for a new machine. £2000 budget ish. Londinium 1 the only option?



## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Time for an upgrade from my beloved La Pavoni Pro pre-mil. Got it from coffeechap in amazing condition 2 and a half years ago, and have since then upgraded with a bottomless portafilter, 49.5 mil tamper, new basket, aluminium funnel for my HG one and so on. As you can imagine with the money spent on it (had to import most things from USA) it's sad to say goodbye.

So, i'm willing to spend up to £2000, and not lightly. This has to be the bee's knees for the money

My first thought, and honestly only thought so far is the Londinium 1. Be nice to get one second hand a bit cheaper, but they don't come by very often.

Can anyone convince me otherwise?

Thanks

Tom


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

If you like levers then it's a no brainer. LI is bomb proof - produces peerless shots and is simple to maintain. No wonder owners hang on to them.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Profitec lever should be out next year . Lots of pump machines under £2k will make great espresso too .

If your heart is set on a spring lever then it's hard to see past then l1 currently


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Oh there's a Strega and a cremina in the sales threads but they are different beasts but will save you £1000 plus


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## Tewdric (Apr 20, 2014)

It's a no brainer..


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Dream machine!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Waddy said:


> So, i'm willing to spend up to £2000, and not lightly. This has to be the bee's knees for the money
> 
> My first thought, and honestly only thought so far is the Londinium 1. Be nice to get one second hand a bit cheaper, but they don't come by very often.
> 
> ...


I doubt it in the absence of any requirements and your stated desire for the L1...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I never understand why people state a desire for something they have never touched or tried. There are a couple of well documented examples of people who have bought L1's and sold them on again very quickly, because they DID NOT tick the required boxes


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> I never understand why people state a desire for something they have never touched or tried. There are a couple of well documented examples of people who have bought L1's and sold them on again very quickly, because they DID NOT tick the required boxes


 I guess levers aren't for everyone ,


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

There should be a health warning attached to advised dished out willy nilly. If you are stupid enough to listen to it then you get what you deserve. It is not as if you cannot visit a couple of websites and cover just about every machine available in Europe. Make a short list and go and see them for gods sake!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Londinium L1 is not your only option, but it is a very very good option.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> There should be a health warning attached to advised dished out willy nilly. If you are stupid enough to listen to it then you get what you deserve. It is not as if you cannot visit a couple of websites and cover just about every machine available in Europe. Make a short list and go and see them for gods sake!


when did you last go and see a machine in the flesh before buying it?


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## insatiableOne (Jul 29, 2015)

> when did you last go and see a machine in the flesh before buying it?


Not to mention only a couple of shops here can try one.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> when did you last go and see a machine in the flesh before buying it?


I am not your average idiot, and one thing I do not do, is ask the members on here for their opinions, then go and buy something based on that


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## Yes Row (Jan 23, 2013)

The "Force" is strong!


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I am not your average idiot, and one thing I do not do, is ask the members on here for their opinions, then go and buy something based on that


An accurate statement at so many levels


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> I never understand why people state a desire for something they have never touched or tried. There are a couple of well documented examples of people who have bought L1's and sold them on again very quickly, because they DID NOT tick the required boxes


What about Jennifer Lawrence?

[/lad]


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

TomBurtonArt said:


> What about Jennifer Lawrence?
> 
> [/lad]


Ok, am going to have to ask for help on that one!


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Jennifer runs out of steam and over heats I reckon


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

h1udd said:


> Jennifer runs out of steam and over heats I reckon


Prone to tripping as well


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I am not your average idiot


completely agree


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Blissful ignorance here.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> completely agree


Is that in the spirit of Francis Urqhart?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> when did you last go and see a machine in the flesh before buying it?


In fairness though, it's always a good idea, if you can do so.


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## The resurrection (Mar 9, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> Ok, am going to have to ask for help on that one!


No probs I'll help out with that one


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

TomBurtonArt said:


> What about Jennifer Lawrence?
> 
> [/lad]


Really...oh no, not doing it for me!









In thie one her eyes have disappeared, possibly a result of her skinny choco lotto strawberry smoother frappa latte chino thing in her hand. Sorry no, I would have to describe her as average to ugly with a bit of frumpty dumpty thrown in.

.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

It's what's inside that counts ..... People take too much notice on the outside appearance of their coffee machines


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

When did this forum become Hello magazine?

I mean seriously....


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Keep whinging like that and it will become mumsnet


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

#abc


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Best advice would be to find someone local who is willing to show you theirs, and maybe let you play with it as well..

Saying that, following advice of others is a bit hit and miss, as you wouldn't ask a vegan what pork sausages they prefer, but they could tell you but it would old be only based what they've read!

Personally I've never used, nor even seen an L1 in the flesh but I'd be very happy if I could afford one. Same I guess with a Strega.. I bought the Pavoni without having used one and love it (though I got a bargain and could easily have sold it on for a profit if I didn't like it).


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rhys said:


> Best advice would be to find someone local who is willing to show you theirs, and maybe let you play with it as well...


For gods sake man......


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> For gods sake man......


What??


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## Yes Row (Jan 23, 2013)

Read your comment with a puerile sense of humour

Oh er misses!


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

h1udd said:


> keep whinging like that and it will become mumsnet


yabu


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

I don't think taking, or atleast listening to advice on a forum makes you an idiot with no mind of your own. I don't know the OP, but speaking purely on a personal level this forum is excellent for getting the opinions both of owners of a product youre thinking of buying and also for picking the brains of people who tinker with a lot of machines. Once people have been kind enough to share their knowledge then you can make your own decision to suit your circumstances. It can be quite hard to get hands on experience of a machine as rare as an L1. If the guy doesn't drive, it could easily be an all day job on trains and buses just to get there and back from the nearest person willing to let them view and pull shots from theirs.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

If it helps at all I shall say this:

With little or no experience of making espresso myself and having only briefly dabbled with an HX, the secondhand opportunity of an L1 arose and I jumped at it.

My taste buds are pretty poor after years of smoking but even I could taste the difference.

A year later and I have absolutely no regrets. If I had loadsamoney and could buy any machine I wanted I might well try one of the profiling machines like the la Marzocco GS3 but I would keep the L1. I might like to try the L1-P but again I would keep the L1.

I cannot think of any reason not to get one.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

well there is no pressure profiling .... And you can't change the output volume of water on the chamber so ratios of coffee to water are pretty static

not that either of these is a bad thing, as ratios are just numbers, you just decrease or increase grind dosing to get the shot, but for some people having control over the water is easier and quicker and the thing I dislike most on my levers


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Yes Row said:


> Read your comment with a puerile sense of humour
> 
> Oh er misses!


Innocently whistles...


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Wow thanks for all the replies... some of them relevant.

It is indeed a good idea to go and try one out first, but I feel if enough research is done before hand its pretty safe to buy one without. It is how I've always done things and I haven't ever really regretted it.

L1 it is then. Didn't think I'd differ but its always good to get a second opinion (or a lot more).

Thanks guys


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

You won't be disappointed.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

h1udd said:


> ..well there is no pressure profiling ....


Isn't there? Manual levers continually profile depending on the pressure you put on the lever. I expect it's the same for spring levers in that the pressure you put on the lever works the other way in that you lower the pressure by pulling the lever? @coffeechap can put me right if I'm barking up the wrong tree.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

There is a pressure profile, based on the properties of the spring but there is no option on the L1 to adjust the pressure profile. At least not for me - Coffeechap may have some voodoo magic that he can perform


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Waddy said:


> Wow thanks for all the replies... some of them relevant.
> 
> It is indeed a good idea to go and try one out first, but I feel if enough research is done before hand its pretty safe to buy one without. It is how I've always done things and I haven't ever really regretted it.
> 
> ...


Unless I missed it though, you still never told us what your requirements in a machine were?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Rhys said:


> Isn't there? Manual levers continually profile depending on the pressure you put on the lever. I expect it's the same for spring levers in that the pressure you put on the lever works the other way in that you lower the pressure by pulling the lever? @coffeechap can put me right if I'm barking up the wrong tree.


Repeatable pressure profiling is difficult, but you can assist or retard the lever thus increasing or decreasing the pressure at the puck. However the l1 does what the l1 does and that is a consistent declining pressure profile each and every time you pull the lever. Only the Vesuvius can do this on a home orientated pump machine.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Could try this - buy dsc lever and go wild

http://www.home-barista.com/levers/olympia-cremina-monitored-controlled-pressure-profiling-t37123.html


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Doesn't the r60 do profiling as well ??


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

h1udd said:


> Doesn't the r60 do profiling as well ??


In theory yes - Yet to be seen what bits it uses to do achieve this


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

h1udd said:


> Doesn't the r60 do profiling as well ??


Does it...interesting, it has a standard rotary pump, so how it does it and what it actually does will be important. The El Roccio seemed to be a wonder machine based on internet comments...but doesn't perform as people think it does.....in fact nothing like the misinformed internet comments.



risky said:


> Unless I missed it though, you still never told us what your requirements in a machine were?


He didn't, just expressed a need for an L1, I presumed the decision was already made, he was just looking for validation.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Beats me how it works ... Rocket claim this :-

The R 60V features a unique pressure profile system that allows further enhancement in the cup with the ability to fine tune pump pressure over the course of the extraction.

The Rocket Espresso pressure profiling system uses a five step approach to allow the extraction to be split into five different time intervals, each allowing for a different pressure to be programmed, making it possible to both ramp up or ramp down pump pressure depending on the coffee type and flavours being chased.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

h1udd said:


> Beats me how it works ... Rocket claim this :-
> 
> The R 60V features a unique pressure profile system that allows further enhancement in the cup with the ability to fine tune pump pressure over the course of the extraction.
> 
> The Rocket Espresso pressure profiling system uses a five step approach to allow the extraction to be split into five different time intervals, each allowing for a different pressure to be programmed, making it possible to both ramp up or ramp down pump pressure depending on the coffee type and flavours being chased.


Yeah, lots of people claim lots of things, sometimes what they claim is completely correct, but it's not exactly what you think it is...they leave you to make the assumption (sometimes incorrect).

The basic ingredients to pressure profile is:


 Pressure sensor/force transducer

Pump that can vary output (e.g. gear pump) or DC motor pump, Vibe pumps and AC motors on standard rotary pumps not too good at this

Computer control that also uses a PID type algorithm to control the pump/pressure (and this has got to work quite fast)


If you don't have these, then what you are doing is flow profiling and this is a different thing. You flow profile every morning when you open a tap, but you are controlling flow, not pressure. Indirectly of course you control pressure when this flow is not against a load, but when it is against a load is where your problems start. It's the old problem of dynamic and static flow through a substrate, as the flow rate reduces, the effective pressure rises (to the maximum the pump is giving out...in most cases this means almost instantly.

Once you are against a changing load, the problems get worse...*.just to give one simple example.* With flow control during preinfusion, you can compress the puck with the maximum pump head (e.g. 10 bar), even with a tiny flow...with pressure control done right, you don't compress the puck, the puck never sees more than what you set. This one single thing affects how fine a grind you can use!

Any way, this is hijacking the thread and it's a little difficult to explain it on a forum.......this problem is easier to see in a machine like the El Roccio, or watch some of the GS3 MP (one with a standard rotary pump and a valve) videos really carefully.


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> I never understand why people state a desire for something they have never touched or tried. There are a couple of well documented examples of people who have bought L1's and sold them on again very quickly, because they DID NOT tick the required boxes


Yep! I am one of them! I expected so much more of the L1 that it, quite frankly, did not deliver for MY tastes.

I upgraded from the L1 to a La Marzocco GS/3 and have never looked back. I can get the sort of coffee from the GS/3 that I couldn't get from the L1.

David


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Agree - try before you buy. Having said that, there are lots of other machines that people have bought and then moved on to something different but these transitions between machines dont get the same level of attention as those who move on from an L1. It doesnt make any of the machines unworthy of a place in a kitchen but the L1 seems to be singled out for special attention.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

What I would say, is I have a gs3 mp with strada kit and the l1p, gs3 has lots of technology and features but hands down if you are serious about espresso and not just over roasted dark stuff, the l1 pulls a better shot than the gs3


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

So the l1p has limitations depending on Roast profiles ??


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

h1udd said:


> So the l1p has limitations depending on Roast profiles ??


No not at all, it will pull a great shot on a light or dark roast, my reference is based on a lot of coffee that I have had made for me by people with outstanding kit that still use over roasted beans ( which they enjoy ) that taste crap. Might as well have cheap gear if the stuff you put in is rubbish. The l1p will get the best out of any bean.


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

coffeechap said:


> .... the l1 pulls a better shot than the gs3


Yes Dave, but "better" is a very subjective term. As you know, I prefer "over-roasted dark stuff" but that is just my preference. It isn't better or worse than what you, or anyone else, likes it is just different.

As far as I am concerned, nobody is the definitive arbiter of what is better. Best is what the individual likes or prefers. Or have I missed something here?

David


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Yay



DavidBondy said:


> Yes Dave, but "better" is a very subjective term. As you know, I prefer "over-roasted dark stuff" but that is just my preference. It isn't better or worse than what you, or anyone else, likes it is just different.
> 
> As far as I am concerned, nobody is the definitive arbiter of what is better. Best is what the individual likes or prefers. Or have I missed something here?
> 
> David


Completely agree Dave love what you make, I am merely looking at this from my personal experience pulling side by side shots from both of these machines, what I like May not be what everyone else likes.


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Does the L1 come with their 'button' tamper? Should I get one? Or shall I shop else where? It is quite a nice interesting tamper after all


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Don't think so. Choice of tamper depends, in part, on what make of basket you go for. If you go for VST, have a look at 58.4mm tampers and the perfect fit 58.5mm offered by Matt Perger and Cafekultur,


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Or something like the PUSH/Mahlgut Tamper/Great Leveller. Which sort the levelling out for you.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

I have the original LI button tamper (via Glenn, thank you very much) and a VST basket and it works well for me - it's also relatively easy to level the grinds. I haven't used the new version of the tamper.


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