# Clever Coffee Dripper



## forzajuve

So I have recently acquired a clever coffee dripper as I start to up my brewing game. Having looked on line for tips on brewing methods it seems to vary quite a lot with no general process for grind size, coffee:water ratio and brew length. Also Steve hasn't got a brew guide on this either so I have been going in slightly blind as to the best approach.

Method so far:


21g coffee, med grind (slightly finer than french press)

300g water off boil slowly added in one (about 30 secs pour)

2 minute brew stiring after 1 minute

Final stir before draw down, usually 1 minute


This has been my best results to date but feel there maybe more to come. Anyone got a tried and tested method for this brew type?


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## CoffeeJohnny

I go with 15g coffee and 270ml water final volume in cup 250ml

grind reasonably coarse it is a full immersion brew after all.

Using Pouring Kettle -

initial pour 80ml wait for bloom to go

then pour rest of water fast and circular in order to agitate the grounds

when done correctly no need for a final stir

begin draw down at 2:45

Final brew time 3:30

Left behind is a domed coffee bed and no grounds on the filter paper

I achieve an absolutely amazing cup this way and to be honest although I am saying it myself the best I have had through a clever dripper.

Hope this helps, I will try and record it at some point.


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## MWJB

I'm using about the same dosing as you Forzajuve (~20g/300ml & 33g/500ml), 30sec bloom, then in with the remainder of the water, stir, leave for 2:35-2:45, stir, draw down.

Grind? Aah, now grind...totally lost track of the Porlex settings (started about a turn & a half from touching...too coarse, must have tightened up 4-5 clicks?), particles look like granulated white sugar size? Bigger than caster sugar, how much this helps I don't know because I'm finding the same visual particle size from different grinders gives very different results...


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## forzajuve

Thanks for this. Looks like I might go a bit coarser and do an initial 30 secs bloom. Although I'm still experimenting I have to say I am loving this brew method, think it can achieve some great tastes once I nail the method. Will give this another try later and update.


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## MWJB

Oooh, nearly forgot...water just off the boil, then into mug (to sap a bit of heat), then into preheated frothing jug for pouring...dunno what the temp is (might check it next week, there are some thermometers kicking around the office). Prefer this method to stright out of the kettle, to jug, to CCD (seems rounder, less thin & acidic).


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## CoffeeJohnny

Hope u can see done in this pic not as clear as I hoped. But this is achieved through the method I described no stirring required.


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## CoffeeJohnny

Also using a hario buono pouring kettle with, temperature sticker on the side


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## MikeHag

Havent used one yet but intrigued by use of pouring kettle as I'd assumed the ability to use a normal kettle was one of the advantages with the CCD, since its an immersion brew method. Not the case?


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## forzajuve

MikeHag said:


> Havent used one yet but intrigued by use of pouring kettle as I'd assumed the ability to use a normal kettle was one of the advantages with the CCD, since its an immersion brew method. Not the case?


That was my theory, more of a gentle intro (and cheaper) than pour overs. Tried with a 30 secs bloom and no stir, actually looked like stir wasn't necessary, nice clean sides and a good brew. Think I'm still a bit fine on the grind though as my draw down was over a minute and was slightly bitter. Will move back toward a French press grind.


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## CoffeeJohnny

MikeHag said:


> Havent used one yet but intrigued by use of pouring kettle as I'd assumed the ability to use a normal kettle was one of the advantages with the CCD, since its an immersion brew method. Not the case?


I've found that I achieve better results this way, just sharing my learnings, I believe you can use a normal kettle and a lot of people appear to stir theirs, so I started using an aggravated pour method and it is a better cup, that is to my taste though, I've not made anyone else one some may disagree. But that's what's so wonderful about coffee, it's like wine we don't all like the same one but we damn well appreciate it when it's good


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## lookseehear

I love my clever dripper! Its easily the most reliable brew method for me at the moment.

I've been on holiday this week so took my porlex, aeropress and metal disk filter and a bag of square mile wote yirgacheff. I struggled to get anything particularly enjoyable but after getting home I just had a really lovely cup from the ccd. This probably says more about my aeropress brewing than my ccd brewing though!

My standard recipe is:

20g coffee, step 20 on my maestro - similar to a v60 grind, perhaps slightly coarser

300 ml Water not too long off the boil- maybe 20 seconds or so. I don't bother with a pouring kettle or a preinfuse, just pour around and try and get everything wet evenly.

Put lid on, wait 2 minutes then do a gentle stir in a circle to help the grounds into a gentle mound then put it on a cup

Draw down should take 1:00 to 1:15

I've got some more time now my exams are over so I'm going to experiment a bit more but that method gets a nice brew most times.


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## garydyke1

I use my pouring kettle for CCD brews. Helps for bloom and then even pouring, starting in middle and 'riding the bloom' outwards, evenly wetting grounds.


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## lookseehear

My concern with using a pouring kettle is heat loss. I've got a cheap electric thermometer on the way but I'd be interested how hot water is straight from the boil into pouring kettle and straight from the pouring kettle into the brew.


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## MikeHag

lookseehear said:


> My concern with using a pouring kettle is heat loss. I've got a cheap electric thermometer on the way but I'd be interested how hot water is straight from the boil into pouring kettle and straight from the pouring kettle into the brew.


We know a little device that helps with pourover temperature dont we?


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## lookseehear

Oh without a doubt the uber is never off my kettle and I'm sure it makes a big difference when a slow pour is required. I jut wonder how much the temp drops as the water goes through the air into the pouring kettle and along the neck of the kettle.

I'm sure when my thermometer arrives it will put my mind at rest!


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## MikeHag

Kett to kettle is drop to 93C if pouring kettle is prewarmed.


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## Outlaw333

garydyke1 said:


> I use my pouring kettle for CCD brews. Helps for bloom and then even pouring, starting in middle and 'riding the bloom' outwards, evenly wetting grounds.


I also 'Ride the bloom' with my Chemex and to a degree with V60(though V60 takes quite a different approach altogether), I'm always gutted if it breaks and spills out, preferring to use the pour to push out the bloom evenly and gradually. I have usually forgotten about it though by the time its in my mug so i don't know if it tastes worse for breaking out or not.


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## Earlepap

I don't bother blooming with aeropress or french press any more. Should I? It doesn't seem to have any effect.


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## MikeHag

Well the purpose of bloom/pre-wet is to ensure the grinds are evenly wet to avoid any particles grouping together in a hydrophobic bunch and not extracting fully. Seems to me that in full immersion brew the risk of that is very low indeed. But if people have tested it and prefer to use a kettle then I'm not going to refute that.


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## Earlepap

Aye. I've put a clever dripper on my Amazon birthday wish list, so fingers crossed I can test these things too.


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## Obsy

I've got a heap of coffee related things on my birthday wish list! CCD is on there as I'm thinking I should be able to get a drinkable result without all the variables of espresso


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## lookseehear

Obsy said:


> I've got a heap of coffee related things on my birthday wish list! CCD is on there as I'm thinking I should be able to get a drinkable result without all the variables of espresso


I admire your optimism! Brewed coffee has just as many variables as espresso and can be an equally cruel mistress. More cruel in some cases - I still regularly spend 10 minutes crafting a cup of coffee only to want to throw it down the sink 

As well as the regular grind, dose, extraction time you also have to consider agitation (to stir or not to stir), brew method, pre wet or not, pouring technique, low bed or high bed, battling fines and temperature management!

I'm not trying to put you off - there are plenty of people out there who are happy to throw some pre ground in a French press with some boiling water, wait a few minutes then plunge and pour. If you're anything like the rest of us though (which I suspect you are  ) then it's another thing that needs to be mastered.

That said, the clever dripper is, as you said, a good place to start because it's less fussy than v60, Chemex etc. so you're on the right track.


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## Outlaw333

Has anyone tried a Chemex Paper in the Clever Dripper? I don't have one so I don't know how possible it would be but seemed like a good idea!


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## CoffeeJohnny

Outlaw333 said:


> Has anyone tried a Chemex Paper in the Clever Dripper? I don't have one so I don't know how possible it would be but seemed like a good idea!


I was going too this morning but I just went for my usual method, will do tomorrow and let you know how it goes


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## MWJB

I'm going back to stirring at fill & at draw down...my "riding the bloom" (more of an uncomfortable croggie) with a jug isn't quite working, I end up with a thick layer of grounds right up to the high tide mark, and a teeny weeny "shallow grave" (rather than a bed) of grounds at the bottom...tastes alright, just depressing to look at.


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## CoffeeJohnny

Tried brewing with a Chemex paper, started draw down too late and over extracted. Try again in the morning unless I just have a Chemex, as it has been a while.


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## MWJB

As I'm at work when I use the CCD I tend to make 500ml brews mostly, so I can share them. ~33g beans, 30s bloom, add remaing water & stir, 2 mins brew, stir, 1:45 draw down. I did try the unadulterated Doubleshot method, which eliminates the bloom...but I found the resulting brew a bit "strident", so am sticking with the blooming. Of course, this difference could be down to the extra cooling time that majority of the water gets whilst sitting in the jug before brewing, rather than the bloom specifically....but it's working nicely, so I'll stick with it.

Edit - just tried keeping to Doubleshot's 2 mins, but inc. bloom, plus draw down - by cutting the steep to 1:30....bleurch! Astringent, tannin-ey, tree bark bitterness, killed any sweetness....I'm not going to be able to finish this one...:-(

Edit #2 - Don't know why I strayed from my original steep time of 2:35-2:45


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## garydyke1

Today I went back to keep-it-simple on the CCD. Been frustrated with recent attempts being a little bovril-like or woody. To much faffing

20g coffee. 333g water. 96C. '21' on the Maestro. Added water without blooming which took approx 10 seconds from my pouring kettle, making sure all evenly covered. lid on . 4 mins. quick stir of minimal remaining grinds at the top with a mini-whisk . then start the draw. Took about 35 seconds.

The result was a lovely fragrant balanced cup, sweet, delicious ...guzzled down in no time. Probably ever so slightly under extracted but I will stick with this from now on.


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## MikeHag

Recently got a CCD at last. Love it - so simple, such a great brew. Going to use them in the cafe for sure.


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## forzajuve

garydyke1 said:


> Today I went back to keep-it-simple on the CCD. Been frustrated with recent attempts being a little bovril-like or woody. To much faffing
> 
> 20g coffee. 333g water. 96C. '21' on the Maestro. Added water without blooming which took approx 10 seconds from my pouring kettle, making sure all evenly covered. lid on . 4 mins. quick stir of minimal remaining grinds at the top with a mini-whisk . then start the draw. Took about 35 seconds.
> 
> The result was a lovely fragrant balanced cup, sweet, delicious ...guzzled down in no time. Probably ever so slightly under extracted but I will stick with this from now on.


Yeah I'm of this opinion, which makes sense as thats what I believe it is designed for, the simpler the better. I'm just trying to find the right grind size to get the best results, but maybe I need a better brew grinder - nooooo more decisions to be made!


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## garydyke1

I should add http://www.breconwater.co.uk/ is giving me some of the best brewed coffee results . Its cheap too

Brecon Carreg Analysis:

198 TDS

70. ph factor

47.5 Calcium

9 Chloride

16.5 Magnesium

2.2 Nitrate

0.4 Potassium

5.1 Silica

5.7 Sodium

9 Sulphates


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## Outlaw333

Here's the analysis per litre of my Tarka Springs.

Calcium 18.0mg

Magnesium 15.0mg

Potassium 0.72mg

Sodium 16.0mg

Aluminium

Iron

Manganese

Nitrate

Chloride 18.0mg

Fluoride 240.0μg

Sulphate 19.8mg

TDS - 148

I know you might think i am biased because it comes from just up the road from me but it really is the Shizz! I would like to find out the PH though.

If you stripped back the added crap, in theory my tap water shouldn't be far off these figures.


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## MWJB

Snatched my CCD off the jug a shade too quickly at the end of draw down today....result was a slightly "chewy" cup. More strong than over-extracted, but lost the juicier, more acidic flavours.

Ended up with ~30g less in the final brew (giving 395g out, compared to a usual 420-425g)...another good reason to pay more attention to the scales, as well as the timer!


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## Toucan

I've been using one of these for a few weeks now!

Haven't quite been able to nail the grind for it, though I think my grinder is stuffed anyway.

Excellent coffee nevertheless. I think it's best when making about 270-300ml of coffee, unless anyone has tips for making more coffee in it. The ease of clean-up is fantastic too, means I can go from zero to coffee with everything tidied away in about 6 minutes!


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## MWJB

Toucan wrote: "...unless anyone has tips for making more coffee in it."

I often fill her up, 30g beans ground coarse like French press. 30 second bloom, then fill up & stir (usually around 1 minute mark) with 485g water total (6.2% starting brew ratio), Steep for a further ~3min (4min total), then a quick stir & ~1min draw down (5mins total). If you struggle hitting 1min draw down (it takes longer) subtract the excess draw down time, over 1 min, from the steep time at next brew. E.g. 1:20 draw down, try a 2:40 steep from fill up if you can't dial the grinder in for 1min dead draw. This should give you ~420g (+/-5g) of final beverage. The Clever Dripper seems fairly flexible regarding grinder, if you have lot of fines then there can be a bit of a trick to hitting the sweet spot after astringent/green/sour flavours & before "back of the throat" bitterness sets in.

Weigh everything.


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## Toucan

MWJB said:


> Toucan wrote: "...unless anyone has tips for making more coffee in it."
> 
> I often fill her up, 30g beans ground coarse like French press. 30 second bloom, then fill up & stir (usually around 1 minute mark) with 485g water total (6.2% starting brew ratio), Steep for a further ~3min (4min total), then a quick stir & ~1min draw down (5mins total). If you struggle hitting 1min draw down (it takes longer) subtract the excess draw down time, over 1 min, from the steep time at next brew. E.g. 1:20 draw down, try a 2:40 steep from fill up if you can't dial the grinder in for 1min dead draw. This should give you ~420g (+/-5g) of final beverage. The Clever Dripper seems fairly flexible regarding grinder, if you have lot of fines then there can be a bit of a trick to hitting the sweet spot after astringent/green/sour flavours & before "back of the throat" bitterness sets in.
> 
> Weigh everything.


Weighing is certainly happening. My problem is probably my grinder. Or the grinder operator.

The draw down practically stalls at the 1:30 point no matter what I get from the grinder, typically some mix of clay and hunks of coffee.


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## kiwigirl42

I've been using one of these for the past few wks and its definitely my favourite way of brewing, as compared to aeropress and cafetiere. So simple and so quick and easy to clear up. I also have a Cuisinart grinder which I am very pleased with and its perfect for this. I pour over water, stir at 2 min then drain at 4 min. I * think * I get a more nuanced brew from aeropress but lazy enough to stick with CCD


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## Danm

Used this for the first time over the weekend an am totally won over with this as a method in terms of ease.

Can't see the v60 returning for some time now.


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## Earlepap

I really want one, but I'm holding off till the newer version becomes available over here. Unless anyone's going to America and fancies bringing one back for me?


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## pendragoncs

Earlepap said:


> I really want one, but I'm holding off till the newer version becomes available over here. Unless anyone's going to America and fancies bringing one back for me?


New one ?

Whats changed?


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## forzajuve

Heres somewhere with the new version. Have to say I dont think there is any material difference in it at all.

http://prima-coffee.com/brewer/clever-coffee-dripper-abid


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## Earlepap

Thanks forzajuve. Sadly that's an American site and it would cost $40 or something nuts to get it shipped over here. I don't think there are any major changes, perhaps only aesthetic, but I'm reluctant to buy an old version if there's a "better" one out there.


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## MWJB

Isn't the difference that the later models have a removable mechanism, they have the more convex 'flare' around the base?

Toucan wrote: "The draw down practically stalls at the 1:30 point no matter what I get from the grinder, typically some mix of clay and hunks of coffee."

Have you tried topping up the water in the CCD before you get to the stall point, using a pouring kettle & going very, very gently...you're not trying to disturb the bed, just keep up the force of gravity upon it. Then kill the extraction when you hit the desired brew weight/volume?


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## forzajuve

Yeah not seen it in the UK but the video on that site explains the differences. I guess being easier to disassemble for cleaning is an advantage, i'm not so fussed about an extra 30ml capacity.


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## Earlepap

Ah I didn't notice the video. Helpful to see the differences. I'd quite like the extra capacity as I think I'd often use it for multiple cups. I don't get why he's poncing about with a pouring kettle - surely one of the great things about the CCD is that you can just chuck water in there willy nilly?


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## forzajuve

Earlepap said:


> I don't get why he's poncing about with a pouring kettle - surely one of the great things about the CCD is that you can just chuck water in there willy nilly?


Well thats my theory, immersion brew like a french press. Maybe he's getting his money worth out of his buono!


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## MWJB

Agreed, from my perspective with the CCD, French press and typically with the Aeropress, I would think it better to get the brew water in as quickly as practical, to keep the temp & thermal mass up?

I like this idea though...






Would seem handy in eliminating variable in draw down time. I wouldn't recommend the gold/permanent filter with the CCD without the paper too, likely to get gunk in the mechanism.


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## Toucan

MWJB said:


> Isn't the difference that the later models have a removable mechanism, they have the more convex 'flare' around the base?
> 
> Toucan wrote: "The draw down practically stalls at the 1:30 point no matter what I get from the grinder, typically some mix of clay and hunks of coffee."
> 
> Have you tried topping up the water in the CCD before you get to the stall point, using a pouring kettle & going very, very gently...you're not trying to disturb the bed, just keep up the force of gravity upon it. Then kill the extraction when you hit the desired brew weight/volume?


Upgrading the grinder solved the problem, it was down to the fines that the cheapie burr grinder made.

The CCD that I bought from Has Bean some months ago has a removable valve. I can measure the exact capacity of it on Sunday night to remove doubt, but I think it's the latest version. Capacity with 30g of coffee in is ~470g of near boiling water, though with very fresh coffee the bloom will touch the lid.

I do wonder if stated capacity in ml is cc of cold water or hot water.


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## MWJB

Toucan wrote: "I do wonder if stated capacity in ml is cc of cold water or hot water. "

I think it's a little academic really, in this case. The filter paper is usually the limiting factor. Plus, whether you can fit 470g or 500g (I found 485g was the practical max, when I used to weigh water added, now I just try not to overfill the filter paper) in the CCD it doesn't really translate to what comes out the other end, you'll lose more than a drip, like V60, due to retention...the most you will usually get in beverage is ~425-430g.

If you wanted 500g of final beverage you can updose a little, (say 35g of grinds?) and correct with water from the kettle. I've had good results with this up to 600g output from 42g grinds.


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## Toucan

MWJB said:


> Toucan wrote: "I do wonder if stated capacity in ml is cc of cold water or hot water. "
> 
> I think it's a little academic really, in this case. The filter paper is usually the limiting factor. Plus, whether you can fit 470g or 500g (I found 485g was the practical max, when I used to weigh water added, now I just try not to overfill the filter paper) in the CCD it doesn't really translate to what comes out the other end, you'll lose ~2 to 2.5g grams of water to each g of grinds due to retention...the most you will usually get in beverage is ~425-430g.
> 
> If you wanted 500g of final beverage you can updose a little, (say 35g of grinds?) and correct with water from the kettle. I've had good results with this up to 600g output from 42g grinds.


Agreed, only thought about in terms of comparing the two without them being side by side.

On closer inspection it is the V1 I have, but the mechanism is removable for cleaning.


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## pendragoncs

Toucan said:


> Agreed, only thought about in terms of comparing the two without them being side by side.
> 
> On closer inspection it is the V1 I have, but the mechanism is removable for cleaning.


Ill take a look at mine later, i didn't realise the bottom comes off for cleaning.


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## Toucan

Push the nipple from above and it pops out. Be careful to line it up straight when attempting re-entry


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## fatboyslim

I'm just weighing up the arguments for:

*Longer steep time and shorter draw down vs Shorter steep and longer draw down*

at the moment I steep for 2 minutes with a 60 second draw down (but this can over run slightly).

I'm at the very coarse side of things to get the quick draw down and I don't think my grinder can handle a grind this coarse particularly well (coarser than french press).

So if I grind finer and steep for less time and have a longer draw down I should get a better extraction???? Just to point out that my brews are generally tasty but I'm just interested to know peoples thoughts.


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## MWJB

You probably don't need to go really coarse...one of the reasons for doing so with, say the French press, is to reduce sludge in the cup...even with a fine/medium drip grind, you might find 4-5min total OK for a steeped brew?

I think the actual draw down time is somewhat arbitrary...whether 2min, 1 min, 45sec...once you establish a draw down time for those beans & grind, then just subtract it from the steep time, keeping the overall target time in the same ball-park?

Is there a particular aspect to the flavour you want to dial out/in?

I do like the aspect of being able to kill the extraction by lifting out the grinds in a permanent filter (thanks to Nick Cho), then letting the paper filter just sift out the fines. Takes some of the guesswork out, regarding draw down time. I'm generally making concentrate type brews (to get enough volume out for 3-4mugs at 7% ratio in the cup), so my steep times might be fairly long for the grind size, due to the smaller grinds (42g) to water ratio...but have largely always been around the 4-5min overall mark, even when using 20-30g of grinds.


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## forzajuve

What are you grinding with for the CCD? I am surprised at the length of time for the draw down. I am managing a 30secs draw down easily with my M+ at about a 22 grind where as about 35 for french press, quite a bit finer for CCD.


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## Earlepap

My best CCD brews have been 3.5m steep and 1-1.5m draw down. Similar grind to what I use for FP. Most successful with SqM Bosque, leaving a super sticky, syrupy, sweet brew.


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## fatboyslim

I'm so confused! I modified my Preciso to grind better for espresso but now I really have no idea which settings work for brewed.

I'm on 32, which before the mod would have been gravel, giving quite a coarse grind (around PF???) in my opinion but I could be wrong.

See a 5 minute total brew on my current grind setting would give stewed bovril. I have 300g of kenyan beans with which I can experiment with









1.5 minute steep and 1.5 minute draw down didn't give a terribly tasty cup. 2 minute steep and 60 second draw down is still winning at the moment.

Could I be over agitating causing all grinds to settle at the bottom and slowing the flow during draw down? I'll try reducing agitation also.


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## MWJB

What kind of dose/brew ratio are you working to?


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## fatboyslim

15g coffee using 230g water following 65g/l brew ratio.


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## MWJB

That's quite strong, were you not happy with 60g/l upwards?


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## tribs

fatboyslim said:


> I'm so confused! I modified my Preciso to grind better for espresso but now I really have no idea which settings work for brewed.
> 
> I'm on 32, which before the mod would have been gravel, giving quite a coarse grind (around PF???) in my opinion but I could be wrong.
> 
> See a 5 minute total brew on my current grind setting would give stewed bovril. I have 300g of kenyan beans with which I can experiment with
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.5 minute steep and 1.5 minute draw down didn't give a terribly tasty cup. 2 minute steep and 60 second draw down is still winning at the moment.
> 
> Could I be over agitating causing all grinds to settle at the bottom and slowing the flow during draw down? I'll try reducing agitation also.


Now you are no longer using it for espresso (assumption) can you not change it back?


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## tribs

I find a stronger dose can lead to the flavour you describe







but adding a little extra water usually gives an indication as to whether that was the case or not.

I suspect a lot of the issues I encounter with brews are due to grind inconsistencies. I am hoping when my Lido arrives, these will be minimised somewhat.

I'm also not so sure that a coarse grind is only required for immersion brews such as the French Press in order to remove fines from the cup.


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## MWJB

Tribs wote: "I'm also not so sure that a coarse grind is only required for immersion brews such as the French Press in order to remove fines from the cup."

If you filter the brew after extraction, or have better filtering, you can take the grind right down. In more than one brew method I am steeping for 4mins, or more, with grinders set 1 turn out (Porlex, Lido), rather than the suggested 2 turns out. The CCD is, or can be, an immersion brewer & it works with a large range of grinds.


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## tribs

The flavour profile will be different depending on the fineness of grind, surely? More about how easy certain elements are extracted depending on the size of the grind rather than the amount of solids in the cup.


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## MWJB

Sure, possibly, but why would one profile be "wrong" compared to another if they both fall within good extraction parameters (based on % by weight, rather than actual components extracted)? Surely, this is just a method for possibly shaping the profile like how you add the water, temp, etc., rather than a "go/no go"...?

Heavy sediment in the cup invariably leaves you with an undrinkable portion and even before that, suspended solids will affect the flavours detectable?

I don't mind a hazy cup (like a weissbier mit hefe?) & the feeling of some "body", but I must be getting fussy in my old age & find that grainy feel & skewed flavour at the end of a cup a disappointing way to finish. If a coffee is tasty, I want every last drop. I stick anything that's potentially silty through an Aeropress, post brew, now (FP, moka pot, swissgold...though I have to say my Hario Cafeor permanent pour-over filter does a great job of holding back the solids).


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## MWJB

Got distracted & forgot my Swissgold "safety net" with the CCD this morning & had to go the regular steep & draw down route...

42g ground to 1 turn out on the Lido (


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## tribs

Interesting method. How much before the top up?


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## fatboyslim

So another muddled CCD brew this morning. I have had a quick google session and found that pretty much everyone has a total brew time of 4 minutes or over.

Clearly my 3 minute brews aren't long enough. Next cup, I'll try a longer steep with my current grind.

Thanks for the input.


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## garydyke1

fatboyslim said:


> with my current grind.
> 
> Thanks for the input.


picture of the grind next to a coin , will see if similar to my CCD


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## fatboyslim

I bet your grind looks nothing like mine. These current beans are huge Kenyan ones that are very dense so this could partly be my problem.

I took a few pictures so I'll just link them below.

Picture 1

Picture 2

Picture 3

That is uber coarse right? This still only gives a 1 minute 20 draw down, surely it should be faster?


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## MWJB

tribs said:


> Interesting method. How much before the top up?


How much time?...I guess up to a minute's bloom (discarding any drips, I wait til dripping tails off, rather than focus on a finite time), then say 20-30 seconds filling up with a kettle? Because I don't keep anything that runs off the bloom, I don't see any point in including it in the time, there is little brew water left around the grinds at this point, so extraction must be somewhat stifled.

Obviously agitation during the pour might be aiding extraction, but this will most likely get properly underway when there is a decent amount of water around the grinds? So I start the timer when the last of the brew water is added (I do this with FP too), I know it's not typical procedure...but pours can vary (by design or not), so to my twisted logic it makes sense to focus on the time the grinds spend steeping in peace?


----------



## garydyke1

fatboyslim said:


> I bet your grind looks nothing like mine. These current beans are huge Kenyan ones that are very dense so this could partly be my problem.
> 
> I took a few pictures so I'll just link them below.
> 
> Picture 1
> 
> Picture 2
> 
> Picture 3
> 
> That is uber coarse right? This still only gives a 1 minute 20 draw down, surely it should be faster?


I would say my grind for CCD is around the same level tbh, the draw-down is approx 1min- 1min 10secs. You dont appear to be swimming with fines, so no issues there!

You just need to try steeping for 5-5.5 even 6 mins


----------



## forzajuve

Just made a CCD and took a photo of the coarseness of my grind:










Thats at 22 on M+ which gives about 30secs draw down. Not the best quality photo sorry (iPhone) but mine looks slightly finer. This was with a new bag of Yirgacheffe from SM and if anything needs to go a click or two finer. Your grind looks consistent but times indicate too many fines. That was the case with my hand grinder when draw down was over 1min until I upgraded to the M+.


----------



## tribs

MWJB said:


> How much time?...I guess up to a minute's bloom (discarding any drips, I wait til dripping tails off, rather than focus on a finite time), then say 20-30 seconds filling up with a kettle? Because I don't keep anything that runs off the bloom, I don't see any point in including it in the time, there is little brew water left around the grinds at this point, so extraction must be somewhat stifled.
> 
> Obviously agitation during the pour might be aiding extraction, but this will most likely get properly underway when there is a decent amount of water around the grinds? So I start the timer when the last of the brew water is added (I do this with FP too), I know it's not typical procedure...but pours can vary (by design or not), so to my twisted logic it makes sense to focus on the time the grinds spend steeping in peace?


No, I meant what was the weight of the brew before you topped up to 600g?


----------



## MWJB

Sorry, never measured it...just "up to the top" of the filter paper in the CCD... I just work to a 42g/600g (70g/l) final ratio, in the cup.


----------



## fatboyslim

Tried a longer steep. Added water and stirred to ensure saturation, stirred again at 1 minute 30. Dropped at 3 minutes.

Brew completed at 5 minutes. Definitely more aromatic and a bit sweeter. Still not perfect, I feel there are other flavours lurking. Not sure which way to go from here, longer steep or finer grind?


----------



## MWJB

tribs said:


> No, I meant what was the weight of the brew before you topped up to 600g?


Had a look today, comes just over the 300ml marker on the server, so probably in the region of 300g-ish of concentrate from 42g dose?

Took the Lido finer (0.875 of a turn out), using the Swissgold method, still needed a full 6:30 steep today, after & on top of blooming & top up time. Took some temperature readings, bloomed at 94.8deg, topped up at 92.5deg, after 4mins steep time (with lid on) brew was sitting at 80deg...still took a couple more minutes before I was ready to lift out the Swissgold & kill extraction, then draw down the concentrate. Whilst this is a little more faff than just using the CCD, I am now totally sold on this method for it's fool-proof-ness (fool-proofidity, fool-proofativeness..?)...after about 4 mins I taste the steeping brew every 30secs, off the top, until the pithy flavours are gone, then kill extraction...rather than second guess draw down time.


----------



## fatboyslim

I do like the idea of fool-proof-enuity! Certainly an interesting method if you have a swissgold filter, which I don't.

I had a pretty tasty brew this morning using a 2:30 steep and approx 2 minute draw down. Still some weird middle extraction notes synonymous with bovril but also lots of great fruit and floral hints.

I think the only way to solve my fussy palate is to buy a ditting....


----------



## garydyke1

fatboyslim said:


> I think the only way to solve my fussy palate is to buy a ditting....


let me know if you find a BOGOF offer anywhere ; )


----------



## lookseehear

Or even a BOG2F offer!


----------



## fatboyslim

Unfortunately no Ditting or uber grinder for me unless I win the lottery.

I have however got my CCD technique down. This will only get better when I get one of my christmas presents (pouring kettle).

15g and 250ml water. Pre-heat paper and CCD, drain into small milk frothing jug to pre-heat that too. 250ml water at around 90-93 degrees slowly adding to grounds for 30 seconds allowing slight degassing.

All water added by 35-40 seconds. Steep for 2 minutes with a stir around 70 seconds in. Drop at 2 minutes with drain and total brew time around 4 minutes.

Soooo tasty brews of Vilca from this, might not work for all coffees though. Hope I don't lose this grind setting.


----------



## MWJB

Reposted this from a tangent on the "V60 Grind Comparison" thread, for easier reference...apologies if you have already read it on that thread:

OK, I have a theory on the CCD...it even makes sense after a night's sleep too...;-)

What is different about the CCD, compared to most brewers, is that the coffee steeps & is then again forced through the bed of grounds by gravity (rather than poured off the top as with a French press). This is also common to the Aeropress, which also has something of a reputation for reliable but perhaps slightly bland brews, not "bad", but perhaps lacking complexity, compared to pourover. So what runs down through the grounds bed is coffee, not water (OK, I accept there is a degree of infusion in a pourover), so unless the whole lot is under extracted, are we still getting those "undery" components that are part of the make up of an alternative brew method?

A good extraction is typically a balance of under, middle & over extracted (not talking % Ext Yield, but rather the components that make up that yeild), are we perhaps surpressing the initial issue (fruitier, livelier, more acidic components) with the CCD, by forcing them through the bed again, picking up later components on the way through?

This morning's brew: 20g grinds (8 on Porlex), 333g water (91.5C...damn this weather). Bloom 30s, add remainder of water to the CCD, light stir to ensure all grinds are saturated & straight onto the cup, let half (or so) drain immediately.

Remove CCD from cup, now taste the remainder off the top, until undery flavours subside (about 2:30 after removal from cup in my case), put the CCD back on the cup & let draw down as normal.

I have a balanced but very dynamic cup, loads of juicyness, but also an underpinning of bitternerness (as in good, balanced bitterness, but no astringency as in "over" bitterness).

Unfortunately only have 1 CCD, so I can't A/B against regular technique. But the CCD hadn't been getting a lot of love lately, I was getting good, sweet-ish, extractions but they often seemed to have muted acidity, I sort of fell out with it after brewing some Rwanda Cyiya (from James Gourmet which was bright, sweet, juicy, grapey acidity in other methods) and it just came out sort of generic, flat.


----------



## MWJB

Went paperless again today, coarse grind...it strikes me that the paper filter is possibly the Achilles heel in the CCD. Not that you can't get a good brew with it, you can, but after steeping, the draw down varies dramatically with new beans & grinds. The permanent filter draws down in seconds, the brew can bypass the bed after all the grounds have steeped for the same time. Much tighter control, timewise, over extraction.

The only downside is obviously silt but this may not be any worse than a regular French press, it's a bit more faff but after extracting in the CCD, secondary filtering of fines can be done in an Aeropress (plonk CCD onto a waiting AP on the cup - as long as you aren't brewing more than the AP can hold? Still hazy, but greatly reduced silt), or filter cone (poured gently down the sides, not in the middle).


----------



## andrei08

Congratulation i am also doing some experiment to my new kahvinkeittimet or coffee maker that i bought in Finland country it is good to see that many people use to explore their self in coffee.


----------



## fatboyslim

Had my first CCD for awhile today since getting my pour over kettle and being obsessed with v60. Totally guessed the grind but pretty coarse.

20-30 second slow pour turning into bloom/pre-infusion. Fill up by 1 minute 15 seconds then drop around 2 minutes 30.

Finished around 3 minutes (+ or - 10 seconds).

Totally different taste profile to v60 but actually very pleasant with nice sweetness and body and totally altered aromatics in the olfactory.

Seeing as how I have a brand new box of CCD filter papers I'm going to be making more brews with this.

Anyone got a good pour over kettle fill up technique for CCD?


----------



## garydyke1

fatboyslim said:


> Anyone got a good pour over kettle fill up technique for CCD?


Ive adjusted the flow rate on my homeloo to be ideal for v60 and Chemex. Its a little too slow for CCD , which I would treat as per a french-press tbh.

Not enough hours in the day to experiment.


----------



## fatboyslim

I wrap my CCD in foil to increase thermal stability because I'm cool.

Anyone else do this or thought about doing this?

...I'm still waiting for my uber cosy from Mike


----------



## garydyke1

fatboyslim said:


> I wrap my CCD in foil to increase thermal stability because I'm cool.
> 
> *Anyone else do this or thought about doing this?*...I'm still waiting for my uber cosy from Mike


Cheap mod ! Still rocking my uber, its served me well


----------



## MWJB

This is interesting...."The continuing adventures of extraction over time"...

http://sprobeforebros.tumblr.com/

...perhaps not as interesting as the recommendation to "tamp" the grinds in a Chemex, farther down...


----------



## Earlepap

Interesting stuff, thanks MWJB. I'm too tired to take in the graph-heavy Chemex right now post but will read it soon.


----------



## MWJB

Don't get too excited about that particular article...I think it was mainly an excuse to have "fun with geometry & graphs"...y'know, like we all do! ;-)


----------



## Pablo

At the moment I'm using the Melitta 1X4 brown filter papers that you get from supermarkets that I rinse before using.

I still get that dry papery taste in the cup.

Are there better papers I could be using with the CCD?

-edit- Filtropa white size 4 any good?


----------



## Earlepap

Filtropa #4 seem to be the favourite amongst people. I never noticed any big paper flavours from them.


----------



## Pablo

Thanks Earlepap. Ordered a pack.


----------



## Earlepap

MWJB said:


> This is interesting...."The continuing adventures of extraction over time"...
> 
> http://sprobeforebros.tumblr.com/


I've not used the CCD for a while as I reached a point where everything from it was tasting unpleasant and I couldn't figure out why. While fully accepting this as user error, I got fed up of wasting coffee so it sat collecting dust until tonight. Inspired by the blog MWJB linked and his mention of a cracking brew he'd made I thought I'd return to it.

I was halfway through watching Godfather 2, not feeling too scientific, and just wanting a minimum faff cup. I pretty much plucked some parameters out of the air: 21g/325ml, 95 degrees, "medium filter" grind. Meridiano decaf beans a couple weeks post-roast.

Chucked in all the water at once using a pouring kettle, spiralling fairly rapidly to evenly wet the grounds. Then once full, submerging any floating grounds with a stir. At 1.5min I stirred at the top. Periodically lifted off the lid to have a whiff for when that grassy smell went. Drained at about 3.15min, taking around 1.15mins to complete the drain. A mostly flat bed was left.

The cup had a great mouth feel and body to it - really creamy. The aromatics and fruit were a bit subdued, but it was sweet and I think with a slightly longer steep it would've ticked all the boxes.

Got to admit I was surprised! So what was going wrong before? Previous brews had always had this astringent taste with a really thin body; a mix of under and over extracted flavours, seemingly regardless of steep time, dose and grind size. After reading the blog and then seeing MWJB's post about thinking of the CCD less in terms of a FP, I think I've figured out the problem was. Basically lack of agitation. I too thought of the the CCD like a cafetiere, so surely if you grind coarse, hurl in the water, give a stir and leave for a while, it'll give a drinkable brew? But with the CCD all the grinds are sat at the bottom not doing anything, in a wedge shaped, compacted area that's relatively small compared to diameter of the top. In a cafetiere the grinds are floating in a far larger area and are exposed to the water with greater uniformity.

So my thinking is that it's kind of like trying to cup a coffee but breaking the crust immediately after pouring the water in. Not much extraction is taking place, hence the under flavours. Then when draining, the water is moving through maybe getting a little more from the bulk of the grinds, but mostly just sucking all the shit out of the fines, leading to the astringency I was tasting. Result: thin, grassy, bitter brew.

I looked at the side of the box of my other unused CCD earlier and found listed instructions that were pretty much what I did in my successful brew tonight. If only I'd noticed that months ago! Anyway, I didn't intend this to be quite such a lengthy, boring post, but hey. Thanks to MWJB, the guy that wrote the blog, and to the forum for enabling these moments of clarity to occur.


----------



## MWJB

Good news!








As you say, the grinds all get trapped in the bottom of the CCD, cramped up in a deep wedge and not doing much without agitation.

And, yes, in the FP a difference is the cake/crust of grinds better spread out, better heat retention and significant agitation at end of brew. Don't be afraid of long steeps (4:00 min, plus draw down)...also, unlike the French Press, you're not getting the most extracted part of the brew thrown out with the grinds & losing strength/TDS that way...so , with that in mind, I'm also now erring towards slightly lower brew ratios in terms of g/l...

At the moment I'm looking around 57.5-58g/l with little/no agitation apart from stirring slurry at prewet & a little stir at top up (also tried 55g/l with espresso grind, no agitation after slurry wetting and a looong steep, tasted like high side of normal, but not technically "over"). This seems most likely to get you around 19%/1.25TDS. Seems realistic & perfectly achievable based on Jackson O'Brien's results in the Sprobeforebros blog (finer grind, smaller dose, more water may have chivvied on extraction some, even with no agitation in his case) & Tom Owen's findings in the Sweetmaria's drip brew Youtube series (19.4%/1.23TDS, 55.5g/l, moderate agitation). Grind seems flexible as long as you stay finer end of drip.

Should point out that Nick Cho got some good extraction figures with a very coarse grind & short steep, perhaps the retained heat & faster flow through the bed, upped the dynamic & help lift the yeild? Perhaps there's a big dead spot in the middle ground with the CCD? Either coarse, quick & hot (coarser & a fast draining Swissgold was also good for me, but needed secondary filtering), or go finer & much longer? Just don't hedge your bets?

I had been using this kind of brew ratio (57.5g/l) with a coarse grind in the Sowden (another brewer with a low brewing dynamic) and I'm now wondering how this will also translate to the Aeropress (as long as you don't push the water level past the grinds bed at plunge, as this will pull down TDS)...I made a chart of perceived Clever extraction...I'll post it up tomorrow. I love charts









Sorry...I'm babbling on...but I'm just soooo excited!







I love this forum.


----------



## MWJB

Chart as mentioned, dashed brown line signifies an achievable level of extraction with CCD, fine drip, moderate agitation (watch Sweetmaria's Tom Owen's video on drip brewing)...


----------



## garydyke1

I joined in with this resurgance in CCD.

18g of [email protected] setting 13 on M+ (medium drip)

315g water @ 96C

40 seconds bloom with 30g water

All remaining water added spiraling the pour outwards

No other intervention

Lid on on until 4 mins 40

final drips 6mins 15

Aroma in cup was very candy like, candy floss? Nothing like the Chemex brews

Not sure I like the result in the cup as much. Much more acidity and fruit (raspberry) than any previous brews. A tiny vegital hint comes through. I didnt think that this coffee could have this profile, mouth is confused. The distinctive choc finish is there but its more dark than milk. There is a roasty element ive yet to find until this point.

I think I steeped too long for the grind setting...although this isnt classic bovril/bitter/stewed over extraction


----------



## garydyke1

Edit - there is a pin-point sharpness on cooling, a clarity of flavour on the fruit acids rather than chocs.....This is Loma, I could tell blind-folded, but I'd sware it was blended with something more african!


----------



## fatboyslim

I literally just finished making a CCD with similar parameters but a finer grind, 2.30 steep, drop and finished by 3.30-3.45; similar to Nick Cho.

Your total brew time seems long! Definitely going to try more stirring so grounds don't sit at the bottom!


----------



## MWJB

Gary, perhaps you haven't steeped enough? 4:40 isn't very long for a low agitation brew. Your draw down was quick too...mine have been 3-4 times longer (~12min steep & draw down).

A difference between this and the Chemex is that the Chemex is very much a combination of under, mid cut & later cut (ideally, like espresso). The CCD & Sowden should give a more even level of extraction accross the output (less variation from top to bottom), perhaps sacrificing a little liveliness & acidity?...Unless perhaps you really coarse as per Nick Cho?


----------



## garydyke1

When I conducted it , it behaved like a french press, ie heavy top layer of floating coffee. Maybe I didnt bloom long enough


----------



## garydyke1

MWJB said:


> Gary, perhaps you haven't steeped enough? 4:40 isn't very long for a low agitation brew. Your draw down was quick too...mine have been 3-4 times longer (~12min steep & draw down).
> 
> A difference between this and the Chemex is that the Chemex is very much a combination of under, mid cut & later cut (ideally, like espresso). The CCD & Sowden should give a more even level of extraction accross the output (less variation from top to bottom), perhaps sacrificing a little liveliness & acidity?...Unless perhaps you really coarse as per Nick Cho?


Tasting this totally cold and its is tasty..its also very very bright and zero bitterness. Id say a 5-6 min steep would have been better


----------



## Earlepap

Today I made a pot with SqM La Serrania beans. Similar parameters as yesterday but I steeped for 4min and gave an additional stir before draining. Tasted good if a little under, which would make sense since I used the same grind setting as for the Meridiano and these beans are roasted a lot lighter. Prefer these beans in chemex to round the body and tame the acidity; I love a biting coffee but this it's almost too much with these beans - extreme raspberry, espresso like.


----------



## fatboyslim

I'm also on the La Serrania after trying it in red brick. The first v60 I made of it 1 day after roast was insane floral raspberries but I've been unable to recreate that in either v60 or CCD









Definitely has a muted extraction zone somewhere between over and under extraction.

I'll try a 4 minute steep and see what happens but its the age old problem of where is your grind at? I'd say mine is pretty coarse with 2.30 minute steep. Finer grind leads to overextraction for me.


----------



## MWJB

fatboyslim said:


> I'll try a 4 minute steep and see what happens but its the age old problem of where is your grind at? I'd say mine is pretty coarse with 2.30 minute steep. Finer grind leads to overextraction for me.


I think it is much, much harder to overextract in the CCD than previously thought. Especially at >60g/l. More of a possibility at

For fine to medium grind I'd look at 4:00 as a minimum, Cho seems to aim for ~1:30 steep with a course grind & fast draw down.

Don't panic if you get a slow draw down either, if you're worried taste a couple of spoonfuls from the CCD...if it's bland, generic & not sweet/juicy, you're probably still OK...pull it off the cup if back of the throat bitter/astringent (careful not to stir it up too much & taste the suspended solids, as these wil give a false impression of bitternes/extraction level). Once a significant portion of the brew has drained, the remainder's capacity for picking up much more TDS is very greatly reduced - low temp, high grinds to water ratio, slow movement through the bed.

E.g. I changed the filters I had been using for secondary filtering the office FP brew from tight weave unbleached, to the #4 white Filtropas...I knew the more open weave would clog with the Filtropa (had to give the bottom a couple of gentle strokes after it choked) and filtration of FP fines would take longer...I didn't expect 11:00! But that's what I got...that and a spot on brew! 

I severely doubt whether fines clogging the filter in draw down has an appreciable effect on extraction yield (WRT CCD), unless the coffee is already overextracted before draw down (unlikely unless


----------



## fatboyslim

Just finished brewing with CCD. From 3.30 total brew time to 5 minute total brew time. Strange enough not overextracted and still much of the same pleasant flavours as a shorter brew time.

In fact much of the muted flavours have gone and the flavours are now more distinct.....interesting. What does Nick Cho know


----------



## Pablo

I tried a finer brew last night with some decaf beans and the Filtropa filters.

20g fine(ish), 50g water to bloom for 30s with stir, topped up to make 350ml then shallow stir, total 3:30 time before placing on cup finishing at just over 6:00.

Turned out to be the sweetest (very syrupy), full bodied yet clean cup I've ever had from the CCD. The filtropa papers are great too; no discernible paper taste whatsoever.


----------



## MWJB

Pablo said:


> The filtropa papers are great too; no discernible paper taste whatsoever.


If you have a reasonable rinsing regieme there shouldn't be any taste from a filter paper. I run some cold water through them...just 'cause it's something to do whilst the water heats up...then flush through with hot water, just off the boil. I've tested all the papers I have to hand and none left any detectable flavour in the brew water. What certainly does happen, is the paper filter acts like a ....well, erm, a "filter"? ;-) In that what it takes out of the brew affects the final taste.

Indeed, I also found the Filtropas accentuated sweetness, as did Kalita Wave bleached papers. The unbleached papers I tried all accentuated caramelly/roastier flavours, the Chemex bleached papers seemed the most transparent. What this also might mean is that the paper you use can give a slight bias to the perception of extraction yield...a paper that has a sweetness bias might make a slightly under cup taste like it's spot on, whereas a paper that reduces sweetness and accentuates bittersweet/caramel/roasty flavours might give the impression that your brew is farther on than it really is.

I readily accept however, that taste is the final arbiter and that if your slightly under, but sweetened, brew tastes spot-on, then it is to all intents and purposes "spot-on"...and that I have just wasted 3 minutes typing a post that should be in the "Distinctions without a difference" section of the forum! ;-) I'll get me coat...


----------



## fatboyslim

Using CCD as a pour over at the moment. CCD sits on top of my metal jug throughout whole brewing process.

Getting some excellent results!


----------



## MWJB

50g/l, grind as for V60, bloom 30s, fill, steep for 4 mins, draw down, no stirring....might even give 48g/l a go...


----------



## Earlepap

Interesting. What beans were you using? Did it not feel very watery?


----------



## MWJB

End of the bag of SQM La Serrania, low on rations so handgrinding so as not to waste a grind.

Funnily enough, no...well, not a big body, but still a slightly syrupy mouthfeel, a good level of extraction, just about tapped the sweet spot. Did try 48g/l, but for reasons I can't explain, I decided to go 2C cooler & it was under (compared to where I was aiming to get to anyway). I'll probably go back to 50g/l & finer grind...oh, and keep the temp up too (96C)


----------



## dsc

I'm currently rediscovering the Clover after a few suggestions from Vince from VST. Current brew protocol is as follows:

- 400g brew water 94-96degC

- 30g-30g of coffee

- brew time 5.5min - 6min

- rinsed filter (I do 600ml of cold water + 100ml-200ml of hot water)

Cover the grinds with 100ml of water, cover, let it sit for 20-30s, add the rest, stir and cover. After 2.5min - 3min stir and cover. Allow 1min to drain.

I tend to go for TDS of around 1.4%, but I've had brews at 1.5-1.55% TDS and it was all tasting fine.

FYI even with a preheated insulated FP and brew water at 96*C the best temps I could get in the FP after adding all of the brew water was 85degC. The Clover being plastic doesn't preheat very well and with that I'm hitting 80degC, so you really don't want to go down below 4min total brew time, unless you grind very fine of course.

Regards,

dsc.


----------



## MWJB

Cool. Is that with a medium to coarse grind?

1.50-1.55% would seem to be pretty much ideal for that brew ratio?


----------



## dsc

I'd say leaning on the fine side of a coarse grind, but again that doesn't really say much does it? Shame we can't communicate grind size better...

1.5-1.55% TDS is too strong, at least looking at the SCAA charts it is. I wouldn't normally go for anything above 1.4% to be honest, but you brew, measure and normally drink what you've brewed

Regards,

dsc.


----------



## MWJB

SCAE chart goes up to 1.45%TDS in the ideal box, NCA up to 1.55%.

At 72g/l 1.4% TDS may be technically (if not flavour-wise) underextracted for some brew methods.

David Walsh's phase 2 study suggested that "TDS preference" amongst home baristas & industry folk may kick in around 1.4% up to 1.6%? Though people seem to generally like coffee better over 1.15%, but some brew methods hold up once over 0.07%TDS...up to...well, how short do you like your ristrettos? ;-)

Check out Colonna & Small's brew parameters for syphon/Aeropress/CCD at their blog ("Fixed recipe"...skip to bottom of page).

I don't hold too much store in TDS alone (unless we are discussing a specific brewer & protocol). TDS is more the mechanism we use to establish extraction, rather than the end goal?


----------



## dsc

Should've said that I was referring to the middle of the 'good' section, only just looked at the graphs the Mojo software shows and SCAA goes only upto 1.45%, SCAE even lower.

Haven't drank a lot of low TDS FP brews over the years, I'm only just getting used to anything above 1.3%. I've had brews before which were quite terrible at 1.4% and very nice at 1.2%. Go figure.

Regards,

T.


----------



## MWJB

dsc said:


> I'm currently rediscovering the Clover after a few suggestions from Vince from VST. Current brew protocol is as follows:
> 
> - 400g brew water 94-96degC
> 
> - 30g-30g of coffee
> 
> - brew time 5.5min - 6min
> 
> - rinsed filter (I do 600ml of cold water + 100ml-200ml of hot water)
> 
> Cover the grinds with 100ml of water, cover, let it sit for 20-30s, add the rest, stir and cover. After 2.5min - 3min stir and cover. Allow 1min to drain.
> 
> I tend to go for TDS of around 1.4%, but I've had brews at 1.5-1.55% TDS and it was all tasting fine.
> 
> FYI even with a preheated insulated FP and brew water at 96*C the best temps I could get in the FP after adding all of the brew water was 85degC. The Clover being plastic doesn't preheat very well and with that I'm hitting 80degC, so you really don't want to go down below 4min total brew time, unless you grind very fine of course.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> dsc.


My grind was probably coarser than yours, so I steeped a little longer (8:00) and scraped in at 1.48%TDS.

Syrupy mouthfeel, juicy, fruity (last of the HB Carlos Arietta...can't shake that tomato thing, like sweet passata?). A smack in the gob, in a good way. A little pithy when cold, maybe because I'm a % or so down on yield compared to you. I'll have another crack at a slightly lower ratio, to try and bump up that %, but yeah, 1.55% looks like a good target for that original recipe, maybe even 1.60%?


----------



## dsc

Yeah as I said I'm a bit close to the finer side of coarse, so re-adjust and give it another go. I haven't really bothered measuring TDS on the last few brews, just drank the stuff

Regards,

T.


----------



## dsc

As I've seen various brew times posted in numerous places, with 4min being the 'gold' standard, I thought I'd check how brew time affects TDS. Results? it doesn't







Seriously, it doesn't make any sense, but from the three back-to-back brews, done with 4min, 5min and 6min brew times, I've had a TDS measurement of 1.38-1.40% on all of them. Here's the method:

Brew time: 4min / 5min / 6min

Coffee weight: 17g

Brew water weight: 230g

Brew water temperature: 96degC

Technique:

1. add 60ml of water and let it bloom for 20s

2. add the rest and stir, cover

3. half way through the brew (so at 2min / 2.5min / 3min) stir, cover

4. allow to drain for 60s

Results per brew:

Brew time: 4min

Brew weight: 180g

Spent weight: 67g

TDS: 1.39%

coffee / brew ratio: 9.4%

Brew time: 5min

Brew weight: 190g

Spent weight: 64g

TDS: 1.37%

coffee / brew ratio: 9.0%

Brew time: 6min

Brew weight: 191g

Spent weight: 63g

TDS: 1.38%

coffee / brew ratio: 8.9%

Same coffee used, same grinder (Mahlkonig Guatemala), same grind size. Samples were taken from the container into which the brew was drained, glass pipette was used, which was clean everytime (to make sure no water was inside the pipette I take a sample, empty pipette, mix the brew and take another sample). Sample was transferred to a dry, cappa cup to cool down and transferred to the Mojo. Each sample was tested three times, average was used above.

Strange?

Regards,

T.


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## garydyke1

Be interesting to see 2, 3, 8, 10 mins


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## dsc

I thought there's no sense in going below 4min, although I might give it a whirl tomorrow. Also the super long ones might be interesting to see.

Regards,

T.


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## garydyke1

It was more to see a wider distribution of data & perhaps the same tests re-done minus the midway stir


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## MWJB

The difference between 4-6 minutes isn't particularly big....but much after that temperature drops & things slow down...they start slowing down, even at high temp, pretty shortly after top up. If you don't mind cold coffee, run one for 30-40minutes.

Stirring - A brief stir after top up (could be incorporated into the pour) & maybe a light stir somewhat into the brew is probably all you need. The stir essentially evens out the TDS accross the beverage in this scenario (slight drop in TDS if no stir/agitation at fill, or thereafter). If you stir persistently the TDS, for a given steep/methodology, doesn't rise but the flavour changes...for the worse. You can't really call it "overextraction" because yield doesn't change, but that's what people will equate the flavour change to. So I wouldn't go mad with stirring.

TDS/yield does not entirely explain the flavour changes we see in a brew. You do show a difference in extraction yield of 1% between brews 1 & 2, though this is mainly due to the difference in retention in the brewer. I wouldn't expect there to be a significant difference in flavour based on this, compared to say a pure drip brew. For a steeped method TDS is more telling...but the CCD combines methodologies.

I wonder how much/if any additional TDS is picked up during draw down, what's the difference in TDS between the steeped brew in the CCD vs the beverage in the cup, is there normalisation/equilibrium due to draw down? (Don't have any syringe filters at the minute so can't check that, next month, maybe).

Your brew ratios are fairly high too, this may be stifling extraction specifically.


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## MWJB

dsc said:


> As I've seen various brew times posted in numerous places, with 4min being the 'gold' standard, I thought I'd check how brew time affects TDS.


The CBI/CBC research seems to have suggested 4-6minutes for steep, based on preground coffee @ 55.8g/l. I very much get the feeling that these instructions were a safe, rule of thumb, rather than a limiting parameter (light roast, fresh ground, higher brew ratio may all move the goalposts some). Think about a cupping, do you taste at 4mins, then throw out the coffee because it must be ruined due to grinds remaining in the beverage for 4 mins+.


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## dsc

I know 4min and 6min isn't massive difference, but I was sure I'll get at least some increase in TDS, looks like those 2 additional minutes don't add much as far as TDS goes. Taste wise I prefered the 5min brew, the 6min tastes a bit over done.

The stir after the top up is a bit of a strange one as well, as the incoming water mixes the grinds rather intensely. Need to test whether adding a manual stir after topping up changes anything.

I guess the above shows that TDS is just a parameter on which you can't rely blindly.

Regards,

T.


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## MWJB

dsc said:


> The stir after the top up is a bit of a strange one as well, as the incoming water mixes the grinds rather intensely. Need to test whether adding a manual stir after topping up changes anything.
> 
> .


Well, if the filling pour agitates well enough, then a stir (just a quick light one) may not be necessary at all. If there is enough agitation in the pour, it can be all you need. That's the thing really...the pour can be the, or part of the, agitation. I did a test where I put the water in first, dumped the grinds on top, just a quick dunk to wet...then no agitation, 4 min steep & draw down. Different brew parameters to you, but I got 1.33%TDS to 1.37%TDS from top to bottom of the cup (we'll call it 1.35%TDS average?). Cup 2 - A brief stir at fill & every minute thereafter got me an even 1.4%TDS. Cup 3 - Fill & stir for 1 min solid, 4 min total steep, also got me an even 1.4%TDS. The first cup was good to start, changed in character, borderline in the finish. 2nd cup was a little overextracted, but tolerable. 3rd cup (despite exact same TDS & yield as 2nd cup) was utterly undrinkable. 2nd & third cups changed very little, tastewise, from start to finish. I'd guess the degredation in flavour may be down to increased, very fine, undissolved solids caused by bashing up the grinds, that can pass through the paper.

So, in typical CCD practice (grinds in 1st, fill, steep, draw down), you are agitating with the filling pour to some degree. For CCD & Aeropress steeps I had been dropping the grinds into the water, to lessen the syrupy mouthfeel & preserve a little clarity/acidity, this is about as close to "no agitation" as you'll get, I guess...unless you're going to dose the coffee with a cocoa duster & wait for it to sink of it's own accord ;-)

So I'd agitate/stir if I wanted an even cup & to fully exploit extraction. Do the minimum, gentle stirring. For more of a "journey in the cup"/if I was slightly overshooting on the TDS, I'd drop the water on the grinds, steep & draw with no agitation.

To really raise TDS for a given brew ratio/methodology (assuming an agitating pour) I think you'd need to grind finer, or use the CCD to really rinse out the grinds, like a pourover with a long bloom/prewet (60-100g until grinds sink), add the remainder of the brew water & draw down immediately. This has been working for me (though all the methods "work"), overfilling with brew water (50g/l?) & killing at desired output to get the desired extraction yield (overextracting the grinds in the brewer, but using the retention in the CCD to work in your favour?).


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## forzajuve

I'm finding increasingly with brewed coffee that stirring does not lead to best results. Whether it is just adding another variable in terms of how long to stir and what the stir method is I'm not too sure but I get much more consistent and better extractions just by agitating by pouring.


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## MWJB

forzajuve said:


> I'm finding increasingly with brewed coffee that stirring does not lead to best results. Whether it is just adding another variable in terms of how long to stir and what the stir method is I'm not too sure but I get much more consistent and better extractions just by agitating by pouring.


I think a little stir, at the beginning, before the grounds have softened up, should be fine. Some brewers, like the Sowden, contain the grinds in a chamber within the bulk of the brew water. You need to agitate somewhat to avoid stratification & even out the brew. This morning though, I stirred at fill then wobbled/jiggled/swirled the brew to bring it up to the sweet spot at the end (no bashing at the grinds with a stirrer)...I thought it may take an age, but was surprisingly quick (if slightly messy). Good result flavour-wise too. I think this could work well for French press, but swirling a full CCD could significantly increase your dry cleaning bills & possibly invalidate your insurance ;-)


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## MWJB

dsc's "different water - sour brews" thread has prompted some thoughts I have regarding steeped brews in the CCD that some might find useful...

If going by the SCAE chart it's the 21% extraction line that will correspond to a decent level of extraction (especially from 55g/l to 65g/l).

In other words, if brewing at 60g/l, I'd expect your brew to come in at 1.45%TDS (+/-0.05%TDS) rather than 1.30%TDS. 1.4% to 1.5% TDS brews are very drinkable, but if you wanted to hit more like 1.30%TDS, then you'd brew at more like 55g/l. Using your regular pourover or French press brew ratios may correspond to a somewhat "chewier" brew from the CCD.

Brew ratio pretty much dictates strength, not so much extraction level (for a given brew volume & steep time). Grind size is the big driver of extraction yield (for given temp). So if your brews are sour/pithy/tangy grind finer. If smokey/bittersweet/astringent grind coarser. Changing brew ratio alone isn't likely to make brews sweeter, just more/less concentrated. Though, brews that are "under" can still come out pretty tasty, it's very forgiving like that.

Time - If you are needing to time to the second, or tens of seconds you are making life hard for yourself. 4-10mins steeps (before draw down) should be fine (if you can do it in less time, then great), it's perfectly feasible to go by taste and draw down at the sweetspot. Draw down times, in themselves, don't seem to be particularly relevant.


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## dsc

Hmmm not so sure about the TDS vs. grind vs. taste correlation. I mean there is one of course but it's not as simple as sour -> grind finer, bitter -> grind coarser. I've doing some brews with a new pack from SQM, Ndimaini Peaberry and it's really, really sour'y even at 1.5% - 1.55% TDS, 20.5-21% extraction. If I bump the grind to finer, all I will get is higher TDS, but I doubt it will take the sourness away, I think at that time I will end up with overdone sour brews which are possibly even more awful. In my opinion it's largely down to the coffee, I think I will need to hit slightly darker roasts next time as I can barely drink this sour party stuff I might experiment with steep times a bit, I've tried using higher brew water temps, but that does very little to the taste. Longer steep seems do not affect TDS much, but I think will have an impact on the taste overall, then again I might be completely wrong

Regards,

T.


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## garydyke1

Have you tried lower water temps c. 85-88C ?

Give it a try and report back....


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## dsc

You mean 85-88degC in the dripper or for brew water being poured in? I've done 94degC the lowest, I wouldn't dare going lower than that with all the sourness in the final brew. I will give it a try today though.

Regards,

T.


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## MWJB

dsc said:


> Hmmm not so sure about the TDS vs. grind vs. taste correlation. I mean there is one of course but it's not as simple as sour -> grind finer, bitter -> grind coarser. I've doing some brews with a new pack from SQM, Ndimaini Peaberry and it's really, really sour'y even at 1.5% - 1.55% TDS, 20.5-21% extraction. If I bump the grind to finer, all I will get is higher TDS, but I doubt it will take the sourness away, I think at that time I will end up with overdone sour brews which are possibly even more awful.


I don't think longer steeps are the answer, the coffee will be cold by the time you get in the zone...if you ever do.

If you're still brewing at 30g/400g (75g/l) aim for 1.75-1.85%TDS.

Check out the Colonna & Smalls blog "fixed recipe ideal", or summat, skip to the CCD recipe at the end, he's brewing at 1g/l less than you and hitting 19.6% "extraction yield", I haven't spoken to Maxwell & could well be wrong, but mathematically, this looks like ~1.7%TDS to me.

I have a theory that the CCD doesn't quite fit regular targets as they might be applied to French press/cupping etc...it doesn't appear to be just me either, check out Nick Cho's CCD videos & do the math.

I bet my left nut it's not the coffees (hmmm...as I still may have some use for said nut, I'll add the caveats that the coffees may be more acidic than some others & that you are free to not like them...I mean "not the coffee" in terms of a malfunction/deficiency).


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## garydyke1

dsc said:


> You mean 85-88degC in the dripper or for brew water being poured in? I've done 94degC the lowest, I wouldn't dare going lower than that with all the sourness in the final brew. I will give it a try today though.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


There was a particular coffee which I had recently , it only 'behaved' in terms of acidity/sour balance in brewed once I dropped the temperature loads (input water temp 88C) . I got annoyed with it and thought what the hell. ... it was delicious and sadly the last dose in the bag!

Worth a try!


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## dsc

FYI the brew recipe I'm using is from Vince at Mojo HQ and if you look at the extraction yield from the Mojo software you will see it's different than what you calculate using the standard formula EY = (TDS*bev_weight)/coffee_weight:









You have EY = 20.79%, TDS = 1.52% and bev. weight = 329g. If you do the calcs the standard weight you get 1.52% * 329g = 5g, which means EY = 5g / 31g = 16.13%. Quite a difference to what the software shows which I'm guessing is down to the brew method (immersion vs. drip).

EDIT: sorry had more to write but this posted anyway for some strange reason. Guidelines from Vince were to keep the TDS between 1.4% and 1.5%, which for now I'm sticking to just as a test. I don't know why the immersion yield is calculated differently or what equations are used to get the 'proper' EY for immersion methods. Reasons for behaving different from an FP would be for me: a) the bottom is different which might affect how the bottom layer of coffee extracts b) on a drain everything goes past the coffee which might be pulling more from the coffee bed c) on startup some coffee drips rather then brews like in an immersion method. Is that enough to negate the Mojo calcs?

I'm not a massive fan of the CCV due to the above, I've always had hit and miss brews from it, which is why I tend to switch to FP filter through a Kalita quite often.

Regards,

T.


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## MWJB

I think you are right on reasons for the difference on points "a)" & "b)" especially...you can lower the TDS/yield a little by dropping grinds in the water & no agitation beyond wetting/dunking...but this would be going in the opposite direction, to that needed, in your case.

With the CCD you still need to hit your sweetspot in the brewer, above the filter. Then, you drain & pick up additional TDS in draw down...this bumps up the TDS & yield, but isn't really reflected in taste vs extraction...it tastes a little different, but not like a 20-22% drip brew for instance.

If you wanted 1.52%TDS in the cup, brew at 62-63g/l.

I too get varying results with steeps in the CCD (I prefer to use it for a long prewet then rinse the grounds like a drip brewer, then cut the drain at the required volume...I find this much more consistent), I have done more CCD brews due to this thread than ever before, but there is one thing to bear in mind - if you don't get the flavour in the brewer (within reason), you're probaby not going to have it after draw down either, so it's by far safest to taste & drain.


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## MWJB

So taking my own advice & theory...

16g (see photo for grind...for whatever use it might be, "see my grind" pics baffle me some...) 250g water, agitating filling pour, once full a few back & forth strokes with a stirrer to expose any dry clods...lid on, start timer & steep.

Tasted periodically from 6 mins, chose to draw down based on flavour at 11:30, draw down ended at ~19:00-ish.

My method suggest I should get 1.53/1.54%TDS at 64g/l, I actually got...

  

  

Juicy, quenching in the cup, but balanced, not spectacular but not sour...like many steeped CCD brews I have had, it's not that detailed, but overall good & enjoyable. I'd have paid money for it. Wouldn't have hurt to have gone bit farther.


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## dsc

To start with: Good discussion

I've had it with this Peaberry coffee, seriously. I know it's probably me, but using TDS and trying to get any good results with this just brings more pain. I've done a finer grind brew yesterday and used an FP instead, filtered through a paper filter. Should've checked TDS, but instead went for a taste test, as that's what makes it work in the end. Tragic, that is all I can say, sourness on some other level (especially when it cools down), but this time mixed with bitterness as well, as the grind was too fine me thinks. Whatever I do I seem to get this unpleasant sourness in the back, so I decided to pack it up and chucked it in the freezer for better days.

Regards,

T.


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## MWJB

Noooooo! ;-)

TDS & a refractometer are great tools, used in context. In other words they can't make your brew better in advance, you have to make the brew & you can only really take meaningful readings & remedial action when all is said & done...after the event & the brew is made... then make notes & work towards a better brew to follow.

If your grind is ball-park, that and brew ratio will allow you to eventually reach the target, then steeped brewing is like waiting for a train (pourovers can be more like parachuting onto the train, just as it pulls into the station?). You're on "platform 19%", for instance - Too fine grind and the train will pull into the platform too quick and you have to... er, jump on the tracks & stop it by force (hmmm, not looking like such a great analogy afterall...) by plungeing/draining. Too coarse and the train is moving slower...you just have to wait longer...much too coarse and it never gets to the station. But usually it is a question of just waiting it out. It will usually get there. I have had great FP brews at espresso grind, these were the only ones that got in the zone in under 4mins for me...at coarse grinds I'm usually looking between 15 & 30minutes.

Did the FP taste great before you poured it into the filter? Secondary filtering can greatly change the flavours of a brew, totally irrespective of TDS/yield. I filter my Sowden brews at home (use the Lido at work & don't bother) and avoid V60 papers for this particular purpose - Chemex, Filtropa & white Kalita Wave papers all come out more transparent/sweeter. If the brew will fit in an Aeropress, then this works great and you don't have to wait a quarter of an hour for the coffee to drain through.

You have obviously invested a "not insignificant amount" in your refractometer, I suspect it is telling you to grind finer/wait longer...go on, get the beans out of the freezer...pretty please...? Go on, just one last shot and I promise I'll shut up...for a bit at least ...

"Tragic, that is all I can say, sourness on some other level (especially when it cools down), but this time mixed with bitterness as well, as the grind was too fine me thinks." There is often a point in a steeped brew, before the sweet spot, where the coffee goes from very bright & acidic to...well, I like Gary's description of "rustic, metallic, treacle"...you get flavours like iron, blood, burnt sugar & carbon, it's easy to assume this is overextraction (to technically overextract a French press is pretty hard with a coarse grind) often if you wait this out (gently rock/swirl the FP, but don't stir it after fill up) you then hit the sweet spot.


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## garydyke1

I tried a bizarre method today and it was the best result in the cup for the Pacamara ''Funkier'' as brewed.

CCD (durrrr)

16.3g dose

Medium drip

strike water 94c

Preheated and rinsed filter.

Added 295g water to CCD

Chucked coffee on the top

Lid on

After 10 mins broke crust

After a further 10 mins drained brew.

Final beverage temperature 65C

Really clean , sweet and balanced. Nice strawberry and boozy notes funky but not offensive.


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## MWJB

How did you find the body/mouthfeel Gary, compared to a "grinds in first" brew?

Just reset my grind for CCD, probably a shade coarse at the mo'...(bordering fine drip & coarse espresso?).

16.8g, 254g (66g/l) water in first, quick wet & light stir, plus 17:40 steep. Very clean brew, light body (belies the strength), disappears off the tongue in the finish. On the under side of normal/good, but none the worse for it.

By the numbers 1.51%TDS.A bit shy off what I would expect if I went grinds in first & an agitating pour.

An earlier brew was significantly under at 9:00 steep (same grind) & showed a lot more zing, but more bitterness too. My biggest problem with CCD brews is impatience...with the above (1.51%) brew I really took my time, periodically spooned a little brew out into a cold shot glass, & gave it a swirl to cool to blood temp, before tasting to decide when to drain.


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## dsc

I got the previous bag back from the freezer and done a few brews, baffled still. Everything and I mean everything came out sour and I mean lemon sour as if the brews were done with lemon slices in them. Tried loads of things, long / short brews, fine / coarse grind, mix / leave without mixing, FP and Clever brewer, hotter / colder brew water etc. Had a range of TDS from 1.3% to 1.75%, the top range was worse than the low in my opinion as the sourness mixed with bitterness. Overall rubbish all over, not sure why though.

Regards,

T.


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## MWJB

Even at 1.75%TDS you are down from where I would want to be at 75g/l...except I wouldn't brew in the CCD at 75g/l ;-)

Do other coffees taste great at those parameters...I don't mean, "are they tolerable?", I mean are they really great?

Grind fine, just coarser that espresso, brew at 62-64g/l, steep for "as long as it takes", draw down when the coffee in the brewer explodes with sweetness in your mouth & not a moment before. aim for 1.50-1.55%TDS in the cup.

Sourness mixed with bitterness suggests under extraction.

I have to say "thank you!" to you dsc...largely because of this thread, my CCD brews have come on leaps & bounds and are producing some of my best & most repeatable brews.


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## garydyke1

MWJB said:


> Even at 1.75%TDS you are about a 1% yield down from where I would want to be at 75g/l...except I wouldn't brew in the CCD at 75g/l ;-)
> 
> Do other coffees taste great at those parameters...I don't mean, "are they tolerable?", I mean are they really great?
> 
> Grind fine, just coarser that espresso, brew at 62-64g/l, steep for "as long as it takes", draw down when the coffee in the brewer explodes with sweetness in your mouth & not a moment before. aim for 1.50-1.55%TDS in the cup.
> 
> *Sourness mixed with bitterness suggests under extraction.*
> 
> I have to say "thank you!" to you dsc...largely because of this thread, my CCD brews have come on leaps & bounds and are producing some of my best & most repeatable brews.


Under extraction is indeed a devious swine!


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## waggy

Thanks for posting this, I'm going to give it a try..


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## Nimble Motionists

Just bought a CCD on the strength of this thread. Hoping it'll provide minimal faff coffee for work. Starting off with a nice Guatemalan microlot from Workshop


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## Earlepap

It is pretty faff free. Just be sure to stir a lot, or leave it sitting there for ages.


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## Nimble Motionists

Enjoying the low faff coffee. Giving one initial stir then leaving to steep for 15 minutes. Found more than that was over-extracted (using a Hario Slim so coarser grind not really an option).


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## MWJB

Nimble Motionists said:


> Enjoying the low faff coffee. Giving one initial stir then leaving to steep for 15 minutes. Found more than that was over-extracted (using a Hario Slim so coarser grind not really an option).


It's almost impossible to overextract in the old Clever, even harder in the new one - though it is easy to hit a big flat spot (bitter, roasty flavours)...if you push on through this, you often get some sweetness coming back in. You can go pretty much as fine as you can grind too...certainly as fine as is reasonable with a Hario Slim.


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## garydyke1

I hate the flat spot. Intuition is screaming overextracted.


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## CoffeeDiva

Looking forward to receiving mine in the post and playing around with this.


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## garydyke1

Brewed coffee can help with espresso diagnosis:

1. yuk , this brewed coffee is nasty at 10 mins, it tastes like XYZ

2. Hmm, its a bit better at 20 mins.

3. Ah , thats better , some sweetness at 25 mins.

Now - this same coffee, as espresso, why does it taste like XYZ at 'normal' parameters (20>30 in 25-30), well it cant be over-extracted. Ok , lets grind finer and drag the extraction out to 20>32 in 35-40 seconds...fixed!


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## MWJB

Bought a new (smoked plastic) Clever so donated my old style, clear one. Looking back over the brews for the old one, my best results were 64g/l and an average steep time of 22mins (some were half this, some twice this), average immersion yield was 24.8%.

Best results with the new one (so far) have been with a Swissgold filter, with the paper filter (you don't need to yank out the Swissgold at drawdown, the coffee will drain quickly around it, via the gap between the filter & the wall of the brewer), lower brew ratios (56-62g/l). ~30 min steeps, 20% or 22% immersion yield.


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## dsc

That flat spot is what made me drop the CCD and it is as Gary says the most tricky part of it all, as everything is telling you over extraction. So you grind coarser or steep shorter which ends up with even more crap in the cup.

What's more annoying is the waiting time for a decent brew, with this or FP. I haven't necessarily got 30min to wait in the morning, but everything I've tried so far to cut the brew times has ended up with disasters taste wise. I'm curious where the whole 4min brew time came from, as it appears on pretty much every brew method, be it immersion or pour over.

Regards,

T.


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## MWJB

dsc said:


> That flat spot is what made me drop the CCD and it is as Gary says the most tricky part of it all, as everything is telling you over extraction. So you grind coarser or steep shorter which ends up with even more crap in the cup.
> 
> What's more annoying is the waiting time for a decent brew, with this or FP. I haven't necessarily got 30min to wait in the morning, but everything I've tried so far to cut the brew times has ended up with disasters taste wise. I'm curious where the whole 4min brew time came from, as it appears on pretty much every brew method, be it immersion or pour over.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.







...they say you can wait longer with a percolator! ;-)

Also, checking through my brews (& backed up with an 11min CCD at my parents yesterday), for some reason all the Porlex brews got into the zone in 8-12minutes. No matter how fine I go with the Rocky (considerably finer than the Porlex), it's always 30mins in the CCD. I could speculate that it may be related to grind shape, or perhaps even how the grinds are cut (sharp slice vs erm, "other")?


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## dsc

Yes definitely, it's down to what the grind quality is. I've seen it mentioned numerous times that for brewed coffee you need uniform grind, all the particles should be roughly the same size, but I doubt that's achievable without sifting.

Regards,

T.


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## MWJB

My problem with things like an ideal grind for "brewed" is that we're normally talking about drip, with a flow rate through the bed. But is uniform particle size as important for steeped brews, or is it as important as particle shape? Or sharp cut/vs. more of a shearing action? My thinking being that uniform, as in as close to spherical/similar height, depth & width seems ideal for drip/espresso...but could something else be better for grinds that simply sit & infuse? Is there any precedent for the notion that particular grinders produce different shaped particles?


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## dsc

My understanding was that uniform grind ie. same shape / size, means that everything brews at the same rate. Of course this is best suited for immersion type brewing, drip will be different, I think drip needs fines ie. different grind sizes, otherwise water will flow through the bed too quickly (similar to espresso).

I seriously think there should be different burr sets for immersion methods, as for me it stands our from all the other brewing methods.

Regards,

T.


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## garydyke1

The only things which ive managed to over extract in a CCD are the fines from the porlex. go over 5 mins and issues occur.

The maestro you can leave the brew 39 mins (as I did this morning) and its still under with zero bitterness.

I want a better grinder which can go finer without fines


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## MWJB

I'm wondering whether, for steeped, I want flakes/scales/slices rather than grounds (perhaps not so much for Aeropress, or CCD with a paper filter only, unless you're going to ladle the coffee out of the brewer)? After all, we want the water to permeate the coffee as quickly & efficiently as possible, rather than use the grind size to control "extraction vs flow rate"?


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## dsc

Have you tried sifting before? it was an eye opener for me.

I think slices would be better as it would allow for a larger surface to contact water, although I doubt it's achievable from a technical point of view.

Regards,

T.


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## garydyke1

sifting highlighted three things to me (this was for pourover) :

1. I needed to go mega mega fine to get a decent brew

2. The finer I went the more fines ended up in the bin, a shocking amount

3. It was hard get a repeatable sift routine, a faff !


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## dsc

I'd say you only want to sift when doing immersion brewing, pourover needs a fair bit of fines to slow down the brew. No wonder it was a faff

Regards,

T.


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## garydyke1

I only owned a v60 at that point in time, all part of the fun


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## Java Jive

MWJB said:


>


Well that was instructional. Hadn't realised Chemex brewers had been around so long nor that they really loved to cook their coffee back then. Also loved the change in music at 12 mins where it went from happy-sixties-housewife to sexy-sixties-jazz-club when they pictured late night coffee. Thanks for posting.


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## CrazyH

Made my first Clever brew today, a bit weak so need to go finer or longer but that should be easy to do. Drinkable, though, reminded me of bulk brew filter, lacking a bit of feel compared to my usual French press but good for gulping! Much more morning friendly than the french press in terms of setup and cleanup.


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