# Sage DB. Gurgling/boiling sound, and temperature display flashing.



## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

Quick question for other DB owners. Is it normal to get a gurgling sound from the brew boiler during pre-infusion? It sounds as if the water in there is boiling as soon as the solenoid valve is opened, which was a surprise (I imagined the boiler offset would be smaller than that due to the design). Also, after a couple of shots with extended preinfusion I then see the temperature display flashing 93C for 5/10 minutes. I'm not sure what that means (and neither are Sage).


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Its a new one on me . The odd gurgle occurs but nothing else


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

No. Did you do a descale previously? If you have, check if the screws are screwed in properly.

Sarah

http://www.hilltopbrews.co.uk


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

Thanks both. It's brand new, only unboxed yesterday - if Lakeland had not kept their crazy low price match going for quite so long I might have resisted! My taste buds are telling it's running hot, so it looks like it will be going back.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

Yep, definitely broken - water now flashing to steam at the grouphead!

Blast.


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## AMCD300 (Feb 11, 2016)

Oh no........

Mine gurgled a bit when I first got it and I thought that it may have had an airlock, however thankfully it cleared up on its own. Have you tried emptying the boilers as if you are descaling it??? Worth a try before it goes back...


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## Motherpucker (Apr 18, 2016)

Thermistor problem by sound of it,new one on me!! Sure I'll see it in coming weeks,I'll keep you posted


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

Definitely a faulty unit which needs a replacement.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

OK. I've had the replacement for a 10 days now - and it's exactly the same. Some background: I'm typically using a very fine grind and 55% power preinfusion for around 25secs + 25 second at full pressure. Most of the time the espresso is very good, but occasionally the machine gurgles through the whole shot and clearly overheats. It always gurgles for the first couple of seconds. Although this is obviously not how one would typically use it, one way of repeatably triggering this behaviour is by doing repeated 30sec "shots" at 55% with an empty portafilter, as in the attached video. The first "shot" is the usual behaviour, the second gurgles for most of the 30s and the third and fourth for the whole time, with reduced flow, by which time the boiler temperature has reached 100 degrees C. Has no one else seen any similar behaviour? There's a lot to like about this machine, not least the quality of the espresso, so if I could understand what's going on and how to avoid it (whilst still enjoying the same style shots) I'd be happy to keep it.

My guess would be that it's running the heaters whenever the pump is going even when the boiler is above the setpoint.

Anyway, here's my candidate for the most boring video ever:


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## Craig-R872 (Apr 4, 2016)

If the display temperature is flashing before you start pulling the shot it means the brew boiler is not upto temperature and is heating the water. As soon as you start pulling this shot the boiler is depleting it's water and fresh water is now entering the boiler at room temperature. Repeatedly doing this and not letting your temperature stabilise before you start is going to over heat your boiler. Your first shot from your video looked and sounded normal to me. Perhaps a video showing this under normal circumstances will help rule out certain things.

Also when you say you are running 25 second pre infusion and 25 secs at full power what is your overall shot volume?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am well known for not knowing what I am talking about, and I do not own a sage, but, is pre infusion of 25 seconds not a bit long? The purpose of this act is to break the puck.....I would have thought 5 to 7 seconds would be nearer the mark.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

Craig-R872 said:


> If the display temperature is flashing before you start pulling the shot it means the brew boiler is not upto temperature and is heating the water. As soon as you start pulling this shot the boiler is depleting it's water and fresh water is now entering the boiler at room temperature. Repeatedly doing this and not letting your temperature stabilise before you start is going to over heat your boiler. Your first shot from your video looked and sounded normal to me. Perhaps a video showing this under normal circumstances will help rule out certain things.
> 
> Also when you say you are running 25 second pre infusion and 25 secs at full power what is your overall shot volume?


The display temperature also flashes if the brew boiler is too hot, and that is what is happening here (at the end, the 93 is flashing but when I switch it on and off it shows 100 - the hottest I've had is 105). Incoming water is heated by a small heat exchanger in the steam boiler before entering the brew boiler. As I said, it only happens occasionally when actually making coffee, so no real chance of catching it on video - it sounds just the same though. Typically 18g-> 36g (I don't look at volume) but that's not the point - a double boiler machine really ought to be thermally stable across a wide range of conditions.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I am well known for not knowing what I am talking about, and I do not own a sage, but, is pre infusion of 25 seconds not a bit long? The purpose of this act is to break the puck.....I would have thought 5 to 7 seconds would be nearer the mark.


I would say the purpose is to not break the puck! 25sec pre brew is the Slayer's hallmark, it allows you to use a very fine grind that would otherwise choke the machine and extract well into relatively little water. see e.g.






The sage DB is actually rather good at it, most of the time.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

Just in case anyone's still interested, I did get to the bottom of this. Yes, the machine does have a tendency towards overheating on these long (time) shortish (weight) shots - this appears to be a result of the heat exchanger in the steam boiler adding too much energy in this situation. I've now plumbed the pump straight to the brew boiler, and the machine is much better behaved for the way I want to use it. This has also stopped the gurgling at the start of the shot. Now that the steam boiler isn't needed for making espressos I'll probably add a switch to turn it off.


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## AMCD300 (Feb 11, 2016)

I don't see any real benefit from long pre-infusion times or adjusting the pre-infusion settings to run lower pressure longer shots... (a) the machine is not designed to cope with this - and we see from your experiences how this can have detrimental results - and (b) I don't see the results in the cup when I tried it. Good luck in tinkering with your equipment but I hope it does not prove an expensive experiment.


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## Craig-R872 (Apr 4, 2016)

Too be fair I have tried with low pressure shots and have had good results! I have not had any of the above problems that seem to have come from this. Can I say I can taste any noticeable difference between this and even factory settings? Well No. But then I'm pretty new to this. I put a new coffee threw this today and even the first shot that gave me a 48g in 30 secs (20g in basket) tasted Ok. Tbf once dialed in correctly the shot was even better but sometimes I think we can all be blinded by searching for something that might not be there.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

GlennV said:


> I would say the purpose is to not break the puck! 25sec pre brew is the Slayer's hallmark, it allows you to use a very fine grind that would otherwise choke the machine and extract well into relatively little water. see e.g.


Slayer and Sage in the same sentence? The machine is not made to do what you are ding. That is not to say you cannot do it of course. What grinder are you using? Break the puck is an expression meaning to infuse at lower pressure so that when the shot begins to pull it starts. An E61 machine will take 3 to 6seconds for example, for the flow to start. You cannot control this unless you have a pressure profiling machine and I believe the Sage does allow a degree of control i this area, but at 25 seconds you are not mimicking a Slayer or Vesuvius, although you may think you are.

When your machine blows up, or wears itself out then you can rethink things through, or, maybe just save your pennies and go for a better machine in the first place. Is your machine under warranty still?


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## Craig-R872 (Apr 4, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> .... Is your machine under warranty still?


Guess not now if it's been re plumbed.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

I think you're underestimating what this machine is capable of @dfk41. The espresso it's producing is first rate, to my taste, which is why I'm going to this trouble. I prefer it to my Vetrano 2B (Verona in the UK) which I've now sold. Out of the box, the E61 has the advantage in mouthfeel but tends to blur the distinction between coffees. This machine is more analytic, I feel, and the long preinfusion gets the mouthfeel back. I'm getting incredibly sweet and balanced shots from the my last bag of the Barn LSOL, probably the best espresso I've produced at home. This suggests to me that the machine does a pretty decent job of delivering the water to the puck, the rest is detail. The overheating was rare under under normal use, and easily recovered from by running off some hot water, but it was an easy change to make. Obviously you shouldn't be messing around inside the machine if you're concerned about warranty, but 55% power 30s pre infusion can be set in the menu (55% is the minimum), why would you think the machine was not designed to allow it?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

60 second preinfusion ftw


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Sage and Slayer in the same sentence , hell yeah . Both machines allow electronic manipulation of pump power


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

AMCD300 said:


> I don't see any real benefit from long pre-infusion times or adjusting the pre-infusion settings to run lower pressure longer shots... (a) the machine is not designed to cope with this - and we see from your experiences how this can have detrimental results - and (b) I don't see the results in the cup when I tried it. Good luck in tinkering with your equipment but I hope it does not prove an expensive experiment.


You need a far

More consistent grinder than a sage one to see the benefits of longer pre infusion


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Sage and Slayer in the same sentence , hell yeah . Both machines allow electronic manipulation of pump power


Thats like saying Aston Martin and Hyundai......both automatics!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Thats like saying Aston Martin and Hyundai......both automatics!


But to follow your analogy we are talking about function over leather seats and wood trim


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> But to follow your analogy we are talking about function over leather seats and wood trim


who mentioned leather and wood? I meant that whilst the Sage might be able to control some of its functionality, to use it in the same sentence as one of the alleged best coffee machines in the world, as a comparison is a bit rich! to begin with, the member doing these mods has it matched to a Sage grinder......which begs the question, whats the bleeding point? Anyone who thinks a Sage grinder is going to get the best out of their coffee machine, needs to borrow BlackAdders pencils and practice the phrase, 'wibble'.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I don't think they were arguing that the Sage was one of the best coffee machines in the world. Simply that the methodology employed by Slayer is loosely applicable to the Sage .

I've tasted pretty darn good espresso via a Sage grinder and if the OP is happy with how the coffee tastes then who are we to snigger


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I've tasted pretty darn good espresso via a Sage grinder and if the OP is happy with how the coffee tastes then who are we to snigger


You working for sage now?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

GlennV said:


> I think you're underestimating what this machine is capable of @dfk41. The espresso it's producing is first rate, to my taste, which is why I'm going to this trouble. I prefer it to my Vetrano 2B (Verona in the UK) which I've now sold. Out of the box, the E61 has the advantage in mouthfeel but tends to blur the distinction between coffees. This machine is more analytic, I feel, and the long preinfusion gets the mouthfeel back. I'm getting incredibly sweet and balanced shots from the my last bag of the Barn LSOL, probably the best espresso I've produced at home. This suggests to me that the machine does a pretty decent job of delivering the water to the puck, the rest is detail. The overheating was rare under under normal use, and easily recovered from by running off some hot water, but it was an easy change to make. Obviously you shouldn't be messing around inside the machine if you're concerned about warranty, but 55% power 30s pre infusion can be set in the menu (55% is the minimum), why would you think the machine was not designed to allow it?


I completely agree. The low pressure shots on the Sage are pretty incredible with The Barn LSOL offering.

I've only tried it using the Mazzer Major, but it's been the best improvement in my shots since messing around with the water/ upgrading the grinder.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

Thanks to fellow owners for their comments, I think I'll leave it at that.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

OK, the plot thickens. The original Breville (BES900) was fitted with a 3 way valve with a 0.6mm orifice, but the one in my machine definitely has a 1mm opening. I don't know when the switch was made, but this would make a big difference to the amount of gurgling (which is due to the plug of superheated water in the HX boiling when the solenoid opens) and the overheating under extended low flow conditions. So, a question for @garydyke1 if you don't mind (am I right in thinking you have one of the first 920's?) do you get a few seconds of gurgling at the start of every shot (which is particularly noticeable at 55% pre infusion power) or is it only on occasional shots you get it?

Let me emphasise again that none of this matters in the slightest if you're making espresso using more traditional parameters. The Sage is a fine machine, and the more I look at it the more impressed I am. Using a big lump of aluminium on the top as a lid, cup warmer and heatsink for the SCR's is genius. Some people worry about the long term maintainability of the machine, but the plumbing is not complicated and the electronics are all standard parts which will be around for a long time.

Quick note for @dfk41. I don't have a sage grinder, not sure where you got that idea from.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

GlennV said:


> OK, the plot thickens. The original Breville (BES900) was fitted with a 3 way valve with a 0.6mm orifice, but the one in my machine definitely has a 1mm opening. I don't know when the switch was made, but this would make a big difference to the amount of gurgling (which is due to the plug of superheated water in the HX boiling when the solenoid opens) and the overheating under extended low flow conditions. So, a question for @garydyke1 if you don't mind (am I right in thinking you have one of the first 920's?) do you get a few seconds of gurgling at the start of every shot (which is particularly noticeable at 55% pre infusion power) or is it only on occasional shots you get it?
> 
> Let me emphasise again that none of this matters in the slightest if you're making espresso using more traditional parameters. The Sage is a fine machine, and the more I look at it the more impressed I am. Using a big lump of aluminium on the top as a lid, cup warmer and heatsink for the SCR's is genius. Some people worry about the long term maintainability of the machine, but the plumbing is not complicated and the electronics are all standard parts which will be around for a long time.
> 
> Quick note for @dfk41. I don't have a sage grinder, not sure where you got that idea from.


I'm on a more recent machine now (I wanted a black one)


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## ActionJoeJackson (Dec 23, 2015)

I know this thread hasn't been touch in a long time, but I don't think people have really got to the bottom of this and I've been experiencing a similar issue. My Sage Dual Boiler has gurgling at the start of every shot, but it doesn't overheat as in @GlennV's video.

I have traced the gurgling back to air in the water line all the way back to the water tank. I've managed to pull the bottom of the machine off and found the inlet seal for the water tank. While pulling a shot, I've observed bubbles exiting the inlet seal and going along the water pipe. I see this consistently on every shot. I've tried to take a video but it is very difficult to capture on video. Here is my attempt - You can just see an air bubble at about 40sec. With the naked eye, I could see more bubbles, but I think it may be to do with the frame rate. I think most of the bubbles are smaller than you can spot, but you can sort of see a slight "movement" of something within the pipe. If it was water flowing, I wouldn't expect to see the movement, but with a bit of air in there, I would expect to see it. Ultimately, I think air is being sucked into the line possibly because the suction of the pump is more than the seal can accommodate.

If there is a small, but consistent amount of air making it from the water inlet seal to the pump and then boiler, then that would account for gurgling at the start of a shot as it is purging the air the has trapped in the boiler or the pipe to the boiler. In this case it is noticeable on the brew boiler. In @GlennV's case, I think your air leak was worse and therefore having a larger effect on water flow to the boiler, hence resulting in high temperatures.

I've replace the water inlet seal and inspected the pipes and tank for damage etc. There is nothing noticeably wrong. Does anyone know how to improve the seal between the water tank and the water inlet seal when it is a brand new seal and a perfect water tank? I think this is the cause for my gurgling issues on pulling a shot.

Any help would be great, as I have searched high and low and come up with very few people talking about this issue.

Thanks



GlennV said:


> OK, the plot thickens. The original Breville (BES900) was fitted with a 3 way valve with a 0.6mm orifice, but the one in my machine definitely has a 1mm opening. I don't know when the switch was made, but this would make a big difference to the amount of gurgling (which is due to the plug of superheated water in the HX boiling when the solenoid opens) and the overheating under extended low flow conditions. So, a question for @garydyke1 if you don't mind (am I right in thinking you have one of the first 920's?) do you get a few seconds of gurgling at the start of every shot (which is particularly noticeable at 55% pre infusion power) or is it only on occasional shots you get it?
> 
> Let me emphasise again that none of this matters in the slightest if you're making espresso using more traditional parameters. The Sage is a fine machine, and the more I look at it the more impressed I am. Using a big lump of aluminium on the top as a lid, cup warmer and heatsink for the SCR's is genius. Some people worry about the long term maintainability of the machine, but the plumbing is not complicated and the electronics are all standard parts which will be around for a long time.
> 
> Quick note for @dfk41. I don't have a sage grinder, not sure where you got that idea from.


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## ronan08 (Dec 21, 2019)

@ActionJoeJackson dont want to say too early but removing the steam boiler piece has solved my issues


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