# ssp burrs and extraction



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

hi,

i have ssp burrs in my mazzer 83mm hu burrs, when ever i do a vid, comments tell me its too fast, but i believe that is a character of ssp burrs,

could some one explain to my why this is?

jake


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Cuprajake said:


> hi,
> 
> i have ssp burrs in my mazzer 83mm hu burrs, when ever i do a vid, comments tell me its too fast, but i believe that is a character of ssp burrs,
> 
> could some one explain to my why this is?


 Having tested a few sets....they have a different cut to the Mazzer burrs, which were originally tuned for espresso. Mazzer now do a Filter Burr an Omni Burr and an espresso specific burr. Mazzer certainly do know a thing or two about burrs, especially when they moved production in-house (quite a long time ago) because they weren't getting the quality.

My belief is, SSP decided to change the burr profile to get more uniformity (whatever that is) and they simply don't produce a nice looking espresso extraction...in many cases you have to go so fine to slow it down...the burrs would actually be touching. The adjustability is also affected, with very small adjustments coarser producing a big difference.....at least that's been my experience.

*I have tried to get on with SSP burrs for espresso....but if i'm totally honest, they don't do it for me.*

P.S. I'd also note that I have seen burrs (I won't name the manufacturer) designed so badly that they failed to work correctly for espresso as they simply wouldn't feed the beans and pack the burrs properly. The problem was the very shallow lead in grind path...which made them nigh unusable for fine grinding. I did feed back to them and presumably they must have done something about it as I have not seen any such complains in the wild. I do know a few grinders were being returned because of this.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

i wouldnt say i get horrible pours, but alot do run fast, if i want a god shot id have to go really fine, but this could also be the machine i now use, i could choke my londo easier than the bianca,

wierdly i found i have more adjustment with ssp over stock mazzer


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Cuprajake said:


> i wouldnt say i get horrible pours, but alot do run fast, if i want a god shot id have to go really fine, but this could also be the machine i now use, i could choke my londo easier than the bianca,
> 
> wierdly i found i have more adjustment with ssp over stock mazzer


 The Londo wasn't really peaking much above 7 bar and dropping very fast for most of the shot to be at 5 to 3 bar. and that's probably why?

If you're talking stock Mazzer omni burrs, I've no doubt that's true....but not against Mazzer espresso specific 83mm burrs. Get a set and try them (you might like them)...151B are espresso specific, I think the ZM comes with them. 151A are omni and 151F are filter.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Couple of points

The shot is only too fast if it tastes bad, does it taste bad?

"if i want a god shot" - are these a particular time ? If a god shot exists and its the best thing ever , wouldn't you want to do this every shot ?

Re arbitrary comments on videos, they aren't tasting your shot ..


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

yeah, for sure, im talking about visuals on the god shot, im more than happy with the taste it get, the comments are obs just on the visuals, so they are generally ignored,

i just wanted to go into the mechanics and what causes faster running, etc.

the stock mazzer burrs were the ti ones, i believe the zm burrs are different and not compatible with the major sadly

ssp now have a different type of burr out but its the 64mm variety


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## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> hi,
> 
> i have ssp burrs in my mazzer 83mm hu burrs, when ever i do a vid, comments tell me its too fast, but i believe that is a character of ssp burrs,
> 
> ...


 You should have asked the person who bullied you into getting the SSP burrs and the Bianca in the first place 

SSP burrs are "faster" as most (not all) of them tend to produce fewer fines than traditional burrs, which in turn reduces the resistance offered by the puck (and that gets even more noticeable over time, as the puck loses solubles - in traditional burrs the puck may get a bit clogged by the fines which ends up generating a bit more resistance). For example on the Bianca you'll see that if you keep your paddle steady, you get quite a bit of pressure drop over the course of a shot (say from 9 bar to 5-6) and this is because of that.

Trying to "tame" the burrs by grinding finer and finer so that you get what people define as a traditional espresso flow may or may not improve your results. I always think that you have to work *with* your equipment and not against it.

The SSP burrs are not to everyone's taste (and especially for medium to dark stuff they may not be the ideal choice) but I wouldn't worry about how the shots look, so long as you like what they taste like.

Rob


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## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> yeah, for sure, im talking about visuals on the god shot, im more than happy with the taste it get, the comments are obs just on the visuals, so they are generally ignored,
> 
> i just wanted to go into the mechanics and what causes faster running, etc.
> 
> ...


 Keep in mind that it's always a tradeoff, I have the SSP 64mm Multi Purpose and I am having great results with Nordic roasts, but I don't think I'd like the results if I drank darker stuff. Which I've not quite tried, and I don't have a different grinder (say a Niche, or a Mignon) to do a proper comparison.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

thanks for that, its more just so i can explain why they run fast, im happy with the taste, im a med/light kinda of guy so happy with the setup i have


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## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

And finally yes, there is an element that is machine-dependent (I would imagine PI on the Bianca will be at a max flow that is far, far lower than what the L1 did, and that helps with not choking. But there definitely is an element which is burr-dependent as I described above.


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

I use the SSP 98 mm HU.


__
http://instagr.am/p/BXtzqTnD0eo/

The SSP designed those burrs to have this quite narrow distribution (high peak).

You have to grind really fine, and for light roasted coffees I use higher doses (up to 20 grams).

What also works pretty well with those burrs is E&B super fine basket. It allows to grind bit coarser that in VST.

https://www.eb-lab.coffee/new-products-1/filters-b702th24sf

As I have a lever with decreasing pressure profile, the flow rate is pretty stable.

I use them with different roasts including from dark to light (mostly), and at different ratios (1:2-3 mostly). I agree they shine against different burr sets at lighter roast (1:2,5 ratio), but they are at least capable of making very good shot for classic Neapolitan style double ristretto.


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## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

SSP wont produce less fines but more in general, because it grinds more uniform and allows you to grind finer to a point you have more fines in your puck composition than a wider distribution.

This means that the puck prep is more finicky and after you extract soak those solids/fines in the cup the puck accelerates in flow because it has nothing in holding it compared to a traditional grinder.

So it's a really bad idea to pull slow mouse tail shots on SSP because you mostly choke it, have dead spots and have a horrible taste. That's why they went into turbos.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

i have an super fine e&b basket, its my favorite,

i tend to pull 1:1 shots mostly 16g dose


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

Try higher ratio from time to time. Up to 1:2,5 works pretty well with those burrs.


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> The Londo wasn't really peaking much above 7 bar and dropping very fast for most of the shot to be at 5 to 3 bar. and that's probably why?
> 
> If you're talking stock Mazzer omni burrs, I've no doubt that's true....but not against Mazzer espresso specific 83mm burrs. Get a set and try them (you might like them)...151B are espresso specific, I think the ZM comes with them. 151A are omni and 151F are filter.


 Thanks Dave. I didn't realise Mazzer had OEM filter burrs and this is very handy as I'm only using my Major for filter so may invest in some new burrs, though the filter burrs are only listed for the Mazzer ZM though you'd assume they would fit the Major.

A little bit of investigation shows that Mazzer offer two types of filter burr and somebody on this forum had a reply from Mazzer defining the burr types:

https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/mazzer-zm-burrs-vs-ek43-burrs-t53711.html



> Mazzer ZM can fit 3 sets of burrs, one for Espresso (151B), two different for Filter Coffee (151F and 151G).
> In order to reach the most consistent particle size, the burrs for Filter were developed ad-hoc: Espresso production benefits of a balanced quantitative of fine and coarse particles, to reach the quality standards of TDS, crema and help the extraction of a wider spectrum of aromatic compounds. Filter coffees, instead, benefit of a ground with a very low amount of fine particles, to limit the bitter taste and enhance the flavours.
> 
> 151F for filter (standard fitted, the grinder was WCE qualified with this set of burrs)
> ...


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

i was told the zm wont fit a major


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> i was told the zm wont fit a major


 Oh nightmare. I'll do some thorough research before risking buying any in that case. Thanks for the heads up.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Cuprajake said:


> i was told the zm wont fit a major


 Yeah I should have said...I've not been using them on a Major...


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

Just checking I've read this thread correctly, is the consensus that a unimodal burr creates a looser matrix of grounds in the puck (therefore less resistance /faster flow) because evenly sized particles pack less efficiently than a range of different particle sizes?

I'm imagining how type 1 sub base works for landscaping, you need that fine dust combined with large rocks to pack together properly.


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## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

SSP grinder 98mm HU aligned to the max bellow. Dial in for espresso shot, burrs spacing 80 microns

The black/dark blue lines (2) you can see that more than 50% of the particles are under 100 microns.

What are fines? particles that are smaller than 100 microns.

A coffee basket has holes that are approx 300-400 microns each in diameter, you think those 30-50-60 microns particles would easily be washed under pressure and some of the make it into the cup. This gives you more sweetness, more body (not crema not texture not mouthfeel) and more extraction when measuring with a refractometer.

So by extracting those into the cup you are taking away up to 25-28% max EY out of a coffee puck.

25% extraction on a 18g coffee puck means 4.5g of solids made it into the cup.

So yeah, SSP produce more fines and you extract them into the cup and once they are gone, the flow starts to increase more and more and more. this is why almost all SSP extractions start slower and move to a huge flow.

And beware, there are many types of SSP burrs, they are not all the same. The one in the mazzer major is not as nasty as the unimodal ones (64mm multi-purpose, 64mm brew, 98mm High uniformity, 98mm brew pre 2015).


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## Waitforme (Dec 13, 2020)

Jeez, this making a cup of coffee malarkey is complicated 😳

Might go back to a spoonful of Birds Mellow dumped in a cup and be done with it 🤔


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Ssp only do the hu for the 83mm in the major

They seem to focus on either bigger or smaller so the ek or the 64mm which seems to be the go to in alot lf grinders now.

I think for me when you hear the word fines its associated with the negitive.


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## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

It depends what you are looking for in your case.

If you do not want to change the grinder to something that suits you better, then you could do some other stuff to help you:

a. freeze the beans (I know you do single dose, so just keep the doses into the freezer) this will make you grind coarser, have less fines and the entire fast flow will be reduced a bit

b. overdose if possible and you have the headspace

c. grind with beans into the hopper

d. build some sorf of chute obstruction, also called declumper. Having a back pressure at the exiting chute means the grinds will mix inside the chamber and will be more time inside the burrs so they can be grind finer. This will make you grind coarser, with something at the chute.

Or just keep the Mazzer, use it as it is, and get a second conical grinder that will work really good for darker roasts, or slower shots (a Niche, a Key, or even a mazzer kony if you love them so much).

You can always find other stuff but those are rare, such as tidaka cb1 grinder, for example. Or a wug2 grinder conical single dose.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Thanks, im happy with my grinder setup.

My question was only ever to find the mechanics of why ssp tend to run fast, which has duely been explained.

Im not in to dark roasts,

The annoyance comes from people commenting that i need to grind finer, just from looking at my shots, im very happy with the taste.


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## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

People dont know what they are talking, they are caught into 2005 making espresso where everything had to be 1:2 ratio in a mousetail going at 1g/s.

Different flow for different roast levels.

As a rule a dark roast/blend/with robusta or a bit oily is great at ~1g/s in the cup but bad at 3g/s in the cup.

A medium roast is good at 1-2 g/s in the cup but bad at 3-4g/s in the cup and bitter at under 1g/s in the cup.

A light roasts is muted, astringent and harsh at under 1.5g/s in the cup and lacking sweetness and has that banana peel taste at huge flow on grinders that cannot extract it fast (underextracted taste).

I am refering to these numbers as average flow in the cup on your scale.

How you calculate them you take out your preinfusion time say 8 sec and you are remained with the rest. If you would have the 25 sec shot take out 8 sec, you are left with 17 sec.

If you want to pull a medium roast on a 1.5g/s average you have 25.5g out in 17 sec. Making the shot go up to the desired 1:2 ratio as 18g in 36 g out it would take 24 sec to have the 36g out.

24sec of brew time + the spoken 8sec preinfusion makes a total of 36 sec shot. On the paper it looks like what most people are pulling for a medium roast with good results.

There is also one more aspect into pulling shots, that I was not aware off, if your coffee is fresh, has plenty of gas, you are pulling coffee with a lot of crema, or your temp is high, you will have this foam in the shot making you think that is a lot of coffee pouring. But once you look at the scale it's not that much. My first reaction to dark roast was to go finer and finer and finer because it looked like it was a gusher shot, but it was just right, slow pour with a lot of crema.

Example of fast flowing shot on unimodal grinder with 98mm ssp hu burrs on a light roast:


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## JahLaza (Mar 18, 2021)

@Denis S pity you hadn't put this exact post up when I started into making espresso earlier this year! Although I would have lost out on the anxious journey for sure! Your numbers against profiles are exactly my experience to date however. should put this up as a quick guide for people starting out as it has great explanations at just right amount of detail! Just acknowledging 👍


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## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

I think the guidance of aiming for a 2:1 ratio in 30-35 seconds is a good starting point and it is a good way for people new to home espresso to learn how to use their equipment and which variables they need to adjust to influence changes in terms of extraction rate and flow etc. but once you have grasped this, it's time to play around with different beans / roasts and find what you actually like.


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Denis S said:


> SSP grinder 98mm HU aligned to the max bellow. Dial in for espresso shot, burrs spacing 80 microns
> 
> The black/dark blue lines (2) you can see that more than 50% of the particles are under 100 microns.
> 
> ...


 Are the other trends other burrs? Could you say which ones please? Thanks


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> The Londo wasn't really peaking much above 7 bar and dropping very fast for most of the shot to be at 5 to 3 bar. and that's probably why?
> 
> If you're talking stock Mazzer omni burrs, I've no doubt that's true....but not against Mazzer espresso specific 83mm burrs. Get a set and try them (you might like them)...151B are espresso specific, I think the ZM comes with them. 151A are omni and 151F are filter.


This post is not entirely correct, the mazzer burrs are configured for different motor specs, the 151b must only be used in the larger motors of the royal or ZM and espresso focused burrs, the 151a are less aggressive to work with the mazzer major ( 151b burrs can stall a mazzer major) these burrs are also espresso focussed. The 151f and G are purely brewed burr sets designed for use in the ZM grinder and were used I. The brewers cup a few years ago at the LCF.

Also the references to the londinium group predominantly running between 5 and 4 bar is nonsense, I have used a scace on the rubinari group and it starts at 7.5 bar and Gradually tapers down to 4 at the finish.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Old thread, never really got much deeper into this, seems my old little major got left behind in the burr development stages, with all the different burr types that now come out.

The SSP seem to grind in around half the time as a stock burr, app they have a cut groove which feeds the beans in.

I've recently been looking at scace devices as I'd love a 54mm one to try.

Here's the vid @coffeechap is talking about

Scace on a londinuim (old londinuim)






Jake


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## MarcoZ (19 d ago)

Denis S said:


> SSP wont produce less fines but more in general, because it grinds more uniform and allows you to grind finer to a point you have more fines in your puck composition than a wider distribution.
> 
> This means that the puck prep is more finicky and after you extract soak those solids/fines in the cup the puck accelerates in flow because it has nothing in holding it compared to a traditional grinder.
> 
> So it's a really bad idea to pull slow mouse tail shots on SSP because you mostly choke it, have dead spots and have a horrible taste. That's why they went into turbos.


Hi, thanks


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