# Embarrassed to ask question about strength



## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

I'm confused about the strength of my coffee after a brew is split into two cups.

Double-spout portafilter

21gm generic basket filled with 21gm Mazzer ground coffee. Grind adjusted for 1:2 extraction

25second pull for 42gm

So taking 7gm as the traditional espresso single, my basket, at 21gm, makes a triple.

That said, does the double-spout to two cups mean that each person drinks an 11.5gm strength cup of 21gm weight?

I ask this because I see so many discussing 15, 18gm basket brews that if the above is correct it means a double-spout gives two cups of just 7.5 and 9gm each

Ian


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The strength of your coffee is primarily determined by brew ratio, then grind.

E.g. If you pull 1:2 strength will be about 9% at ideal grind. Too coarse, too fine it might drop to 7.5%

If you brewed at 1:3 (longer ratio) you would struggle to get much above 6.5% at ideal grind. The ratio is 1/3 longer so the drink strength drops by 1/3 too.

In your example, each person will get half of the 21g dose in their cup, but as they also get half of the 42g beverage, thus strength stays the same as if they were getting the whole shot (unless you are then diluting with a fixed amount of water/milk). The drink is just smaller.

This is also true for basket size, 20g basket makes a bigger drink (at the same ratio) than a 16g, same strength. Unless you have some issue that prevents you from extracting very high/low doses normally.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

It is all very confusing! let your own taste dictate to you. Abroad, a lot of people go down the 7 gm single, 14 gm double route but over here, that is not so popular. Many forget the single basket and so only drink 'doubles'. These might vary typically from 14 to 20 gms. If I were splitting a shot, I would look to the higher end but I drink 18gm doubles as my normal drink.

The type of coffee you buy will have an effect on taste, as will extraction and type of grinder. it does get very complicated, even more so once you lift the lid a little.

Not knowing your setup, try splitting a shot at say 18gm and then you can adjust length of pour, grind etc to tune it in


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Beemer said:


> So taking 7gm as the traditional espresso single, my basket, at 21gm, makes a triple.


7grm dose is associated with Italian espresso which is made with very dark roasted blends which include a proportion of Robusto for added caffeine kick which explains the smaller dose. An Italian single espresso is literally a sip.

Things have moved on - most dark roasts are solely Arabica but you can find some with Robusta added. With tastes moving to lighter to medium roasts, doses have increased as lighter roasts in particular don't release the soluble solids as easily as darker roasts. So doses in the order of 18grms plus or minus a couple of the grams are the new 'norm' for a single shot.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

It's not complicated. Try to separate the concepts of strength & taste & it gets very simple, quick.

A well extracted 1:2 shot will be very similar in taste to a well extracted 1:3 shot, just stronger.

The type of coffee has a big influence on taste, but almost no influence on strength.

Strength is objective.

Perceived intensity (which, fair enough, you might also call strength) and taste are subjective.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

When I first posted here I said "I know what I like".

On reflection and after a good few Kg of coffee, that comment has meant a number of things.... Flavour and strength of flavour are for me, a long time smoker, the key.

I am also a sweet tooth so I cannot be a purist when it comes to drinking coffee.

I have tried those golden ratios based on grams in : grams out : over a given time and often by accident I have discovered that certain coffees become even more delicious when made outside of the normal parameters.

Right now it is the season for Guji Highland beans with their full on dark berry fruit flavour which I am happy to pull 18 in 45 out in 55+ seconds. Two of these in a mug topped off with milk done cappuccino style and about 8g of sugar to really bring out the flavour and sweetness of these beans ticks all the boxes for me.

I guess I am saying you should experiment, not just with different beans but with tasting what happens if for example the grind is a bit fine so it takes longer to pour.

Your taste buds are what need satisfying nothing else


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

grumpydaddy said:


> I have tried those golden ratios based on grams in : grams out : over a given time and often by accident I have discovered that certain coffees become even more delicious when made outside of the normal parameters.
> 
> Right now it is the season for Guji Highland beans with their full on dark berry fruit flavour which I am happy to pull 18 in 45 out in 55+ seconds. Two of these in a mug topped off with milk done cappuccino style and about 8g of sugar to really bring out the flavour and sweetness of these beans ticks all the boxes for me.
> 
> .


These are normal parameters & not indicative of abnormal strength.


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## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

Perhaps a look at my single origin Arabica bean purchases would be useful:

Ethiopian Yirgacheffe

Colombian Bucaramanga

Rwandan

Sumatra Mandheling

Costa Rica Tarrazu Valley

Ian


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> It's not complicated. Try to separate the concepts of strength & taste & it gets very simple, quick.
> 
> A well extracted 1:2 shot will be very similar in taste to a well extracted 1:3 shot, just stronger.
> 
> ...


In some ways that is a much better way of explaining it. Extraction levels can't really be related to the "strength of taste" or for that matter the taste preference of the person that is drinking it. Both of those need to satisfy the drinker.

The other aspect is say time is fixed and 2 drinks are tuned with the same weight of beans one with a ratio of 1 to 2 and another with 1 to 3. They wont taste the same or talk about over and under extraction would be a myth and wouldn't matter. It does matter because varying that is another way of obtaining the taste some one might want from a bean. That means that in real terms it's not under or over extracted and either is likely to suite some beans and may even give the taste profile a bean should have. These drinks do have a name anyway. Rirstretto and lungo, how short how long is a variable not a rule as is the time used really.

The other complication is the type of bean. Some taste wise are way way stronger than others. I for instance use 14.5g in a 12oz plus long black. I doubt if anyone would want to drink the shot that goes into that as an espresso. Another bean I sometimes use has another effect. Brewed with 14.5g and the dominant taste of the bean is far too strong to detect any subtleties. Cut that to 9 and those begin to become apparent but with a weaker over all level of taste.

John

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