# Any disadvantages to buying a on demand grinder??



## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

Hi all

As a person who only makes coffee for himself 3 times a day I never look past an on demand grinder.

I am currently looking to upgrade my mingon but most 2nd hand machines are with chambers

Am I missing something ???

I was thinking of going for a mazzer SJ but can't seem to find a 2nd hand one that's on demand

Many thanks in advance

Gary


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

GaryG said:


> Hi all
> 
> As a person who only makes coffee for himself 3 times a day I never look past an on demand grinder.
> 
> ...


Doserless grinders often have problems with clumping and retention. They're good for busy shops where speed is important, but no great advantage IMO for home use. The Mazzer doser is useless, though.

JP


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## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

Mmm ok that makes sense

So maybe actually dump the on demand idea but look at different options than the SJ


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

JP , how many doser less grinders have you used then? Usually if they clamour, your grind is too tight. Having run rr55, k10, k8 and endless Mythos recently, clumping is not something that has troubled me. If it clumps break it down! As soon as the water hits it the clump is gone anyway


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jjprestidge said:


> Doserless grinders often have problems with clumping and retention. They're good for busy shops where speed is important, but no great advantage IMO for home use. The Mazzer doser is useless, though.
> 
> JP


The mazzer doser un modified is useless, but with some simple well documented mods you can get. Centre of the portafilter, clump free mound of coffee, plus with the amount of mods that people have done you can single dose on a mazzer fairly easily using a lens hood hopper.


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## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

So is the doser version better than the doserless once modded?? Confused a bit now


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

If you intend to single dose, I.e grind a weighted dose and get out what you put in, then a doser grinder will be better, as you can modify them, use a brush and pretty much get out what went in. Word of warning all commercial grinders except the ek43 and r120 will need some form of modification to get them to single dose.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I'm not going to contradict anything that CC, JJP or DFK say because they've probably forgotten more than I know.

But having had an MC2, then a Mazzer Mini, and now a Eureka Zenith 65E I would say that the 65E, which is on-demand, suits me perfectly as a 3-doubles a day bloke such as you. I don't get clumping, and it's a welcome relief not to have to mess about with getting the last couple of grams out of the Mazzer doser. Bearing in mind I'm not an expert on grinders but probably someone much like yourself Gary, I can't see much of a downside to the Zenith. I really enjoy the results and the ease of use. Of course something that costs twice as much would probably be even better but that wasn't really in question.

The electronic dosing on the zenith means you can chuck enough beans in the hopper for a day or two's drinks, set it up and just press the button and off you go. I don't single dose and so an OD grinder makes my life easy. With the Mini (which was unmodified apart from guards and screens being removed), I had to turn it on, guess when roughly 18g was present and turn it off, thwack it into the basket and then hoik out the last gram and a half from the exit chute, then thwack that into the basket too, and maybe whip round afterwards with a small brush. It was fun for a while and I didn't mind as the coffee was so much better than the MC2 used to give. But the Zenith is really so nice to use.


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## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

Ok so I suppose I should take a different view as to what kind of grinder I should look to purchase.

My coffee is made first thing in the morning for double espresso and one when I come home from work.

I am upgrading from a mingon so want to step up slightly

Edit-: I'll have a look at the zenith too


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> JP , how many doser less grinders have you used then? Usually if they clamour, your grind is too tight. Having run rr55, k10, k8 and endless Mythos recently, clumping is not something that has troubled me. If it clumps break it down! As soon as the water hits it the clump is gone anyway


Lots (and can we not put this sort of thing to bed - I own a speciality shop and have tried a large range of commercial equipment, as you'd expect). Take a look at your thread on Scott Rao - he's an advocate of dosers.

I just can't see an upside of doserless for home use. I mean, I don't need doserless in the shop and I'm doing up to 120 coffees a day. Much more than that and it would be a pain, but we'll always weigh doses first anyway, and there isn't a grinder out there at the moment that doses accurately enough to avoid that stage.

JP


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jjprestidge said:


> and there isn't a grinder out there at the moment that doses accurately enough to avoid that stage.
> 
> JP


EK 43, compak r120, versalab to name three (what goes in comes out), agree that dosered is the way to go in the home though.....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

but it is all about convenience for the home. If you are happy with what you produce, then the rest of the argument does not matter. I might know I can produce a technically superior shot with a doser, but could I actually care less?


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## Terranova (Feb 15, 2014)

Clumps contain (IMHO) a large amount of fines, so they can easily "destroy" the shot.

The EK 43 (at least mine) keeps about 4g retention inside, also the burrs are not really made for espresso, nor ristretto, at least not for darker roasts.

I don´t know about the r120, but if the burrs are also made for other brewing methods than espresso, it will be the same compromise like using the EK 43 (which doesn´t seem to be on the OP´s list anyway)

Light roast and longer shots good, dark roasts YIKES...

(man when I look at my tattoo... it still hurts)


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I am sure your new grinder will be zero retention as well frank, as is Toms one, was not responding to OP as already covered that. Also think the disadvantages have been covered as well, apart from the fact that you really need weight of bean to get the best out of an on demand grinder, which will mean there will always be loads of coffee left in the grind path.


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## Terranova (Feb 15, 2014)

I never wanted to throw an unfinished and insane expensive product into the race (Mine) and I doubt that Tom is close to bringing out a product which has to run through much more processes than "just making it work" (i.e patent rights, CE certification and much more) BTW: you can use a weight like a tamper on top of the beans to avoid getting the "popcorning" inconsistency.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

A decent Doser (or well nodded mazzer) will break up your clumps and leave you with a great distribution in the basket that requires very little prep. I would certainly get a Doser if I were looking in low end commercial range.

Good luck.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> EK 43, compak r120, versalab to name three (what goes in comes out), agree that dosered is the way to go in the home though.....


That's a bit disingenuous re the EK43 - you have to weigh the doses beforehand.

JP


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

Having owned a couple of doserless myself (Mini E, Major E, K30) I must say I agree, they aren't very well suited for home use, you wast allot of coffee every time it has been sitting still for more then 15-20min. Most of these grinders have a 10-15g retention. That's a lot of coffee wast over the cause of one day, if you have more then one session.

And then we have to remember you have to purge more then what the retention nr. is as it's getting mixed with freshly grindeded coffee.

Although the k30 where a bliss to work on, and the shot where absolutely wonderfully, there where simply to much waste involved

but I have heard good things about the Mythos, my local speciality roaster says it has close to no retention, the same goes for ek-43 but these grinders are not exactly cheep.

the essential on demand are claiming to have close to no retention as well, but these claims are still unsupported by real life testing.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jjprestidge said:


> That's a bit disingenuous re the EK43 - you have to weigh the doses beforehand.
> 
> JP


The statement was about out put though, ok then the ugly but accurate in terms of dose, Azkoyen cappriccio, uses the same burrs as the k30.


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## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

Wow a lot of information.

I want to spend adequate money that I don't need to replace machine for a few years so I want to jump from the mingon to be substantial enough to validate the upgrade.

The EK43 just looks massive I need a smaller machine to fit in my kitchen.


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## Hoffmonkey (Apr 28, 2014)

Are we calling doserless a formerly dosered but now modded to be doserless? Are your Anfim's On Demand?

So we have possible types of grinder:

- on demand with timer - i.e. Zenith 65E

- on demand, no timer - i.e. EK43

- doserless - i.e Mazzer SJ with the doser removed and mods applied

- doser - i.e stock Mazzer SJ?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Hmm, I find this interesting as a thread; I hadn't even considered doser models either - I had understood (or assumed?!) that they were a massive faff for home use.

Be great if we could collect the best minds here, and create a "what grinder do I need?" type flowchart for all those people who want to answer this question; it's really hard to gather all the various thoughts and come up with a clear picture of what would be best I feel.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I recently switched from 10 years of owning deserves grinds, to a K10 pro Barista which has a loser. Now, Dave modded it for me so that the chamber swept cleanly, and the flap things were removed. I only kept it a couple of months. To make a cup, you had to:

grind some beans that you could only measure by eye

flap them into the basket

weigh the handle and basket then either remove grinds or go back and grind more then flap in. then after the shot was pulled, you had to get a brush and clean out the exit chute which had about 4 gms stuck in it. Sorry, but if you are suggesting that that is easier for a home owner than this routine on my mythos:

stick 250 gems into the hopper

push the pf onto the start button and dispense a perfect amount of coffee into the pf set on a timer

because of the mound effect, it is incredibly easy to tell by eye if you are within an acceptable limit

away you go

I do not believe you can tell the difference between 13.1 gms and 13.4 gems of coffee in the cup, so am quite happy with a little variance.

I had a k10 Fresh prior to this, and whilst that was a fantastic grinder, it had serious retention issues. For those who do not understand retention (Me included until recently) then any space left inside the burr chamber will eventually become packed with coffee grinds. The modern grinders seem to understand this and restrict the space. the Mythos has burrs at 45 degrees and the grinds drop off the burrs straight into the exit chute and in to the pf. So, perhaps non modern grinders are more of a faff. If you are after perfection, and I would query why you are when acceptable is an easier standard to maintain, then a dowered grinder maybe for you, if you do not mind a routine to have to perform. If you are an occasional drinker, say up to 5 a day, then why would you not buy a Versalab or HG One (money aside) as they will cope with everything you chuck at them!


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Nicely put Dave (I'm getting used to your typos.







)

I agree whole heartedly. I have a couple of Pharos hand grinders, one modified, one stock. (Ought to sell the stock one but haven't got around to it.) I also have a Eureka MDL 74mm flat burr doser which I'm slowly cleaning and sorting out. However, it is quite obvious that it has retention issues while the modded Pharos retention is miniscule. A tenth of a gram perhaps. I've concluded that my next grinder will either be a used Mythos for all the reasons you state, or an HG1, or better still a powered equivalent, when somebody gets around to making one! (I've been doing a lot of doodling on the backs of envelopes and I just might go for it.) Not keen on the Versalab and the price rules it out anyway. Meanwhile, for the three to six drinks a day I'm making, the Pharos is fine. A bit like hard work but not too much.

So to put some numbers on this, a Pharos rivals much more expensive grinders and we like what we are getting in the cup. Therefore my next upgrade will be a double boiler machine because the single boiler I have now is a faff to steam with. (We drink all milky coffees.) I'm just trying to decide between an Expobar at around £1100 or one of the prettier ones at around £1800. I'm not skilled enough and don't have the palate or budget to make a Vesuvius worthwhile. I've considered a lever and might go there one day if my palate improves.

Not sure if this helps but you can see my thought process.


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## big dan (Apr 11, 2012)

Hi Gary, i literally just upgraded from a mignon to a Mazzer Mini that i picked up from Hotmetal so maybe i can give you some of my experiences.

I liked the Mignon but found it very clumpy and grounds retention was a bit if an issue at times. It was a lot less messy than the Mazzer and a lot smaller but that is the only difference for me. I have switched to single dosing as i tend to have 2 beans on the go at any one time (one for espresso and one for milk based drinks).

Aas for on-demand, there is a timer on my mini but as hotmetal said it is a bit of guesswork and not hugely accurate. It depends how you want to do it. I haven't been able to do a proper mod of my grinder but i have attached a brush inside and this does a pretty good job of clearing away most of the grinds. Not sure i would want to use the mazzer for on demand.

I guess it depends on how you dose? Do you want to fill a basket and then use WDT or another distribition technique to get rid of excess grounds and prepare the coffee for tamping? If so then no worries but you might be grind 20g and discarding 2g every time. BUT if you want to measure the weight then its not as easy in my opinion. I don't like having to take the basket out of the portafilter and then weighing the output although you can still do this but again you are just guessing how much has been ground into the dosing chamber. I decided for the Mazzer to weight 17.5g of beans and single dose, i then use my brush mod to get as many of the grinds out as possible and also use a tool to get any leftover grinds in the chute that drops down to the dosing chamber. For me this is fine as i am aiming for a 17g basket and 0.5 extra just gives me a little leeway.

I guess you have to weigh up how much convenience you want. For me the Mazzer adds a few extra steps in my coffee making "ritual" but for me this worth it as i am getting more consistent shots!

Hopefully this afternoon or tomorrow i will be doing a side by side comparison between the 2 grinders and i will post the link here so you can see what you think.

I saw hot metal's Zenith and it was very nice and simple, just push a button and you're done!

I also single dosed on my Mignon too as it was easier for me get an exacting amount of coffee out of the grinder. Another reason is i keep my beans in the one way valve bag and then inside a vacuum sealed container that i can pump the air out of (vacuvin) so I can keep the beans fresher for longer.


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## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

Thanks big dan!

I'm now thinking I should skip the £500 S|H market and go straight for the £750

Just seems that's where you need to go to get 5 years down the line.


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## Terranova (Feb 15, 2014)

jjprestidge said:


> That's a bit disingenuous re the EK43 - you have to weigh the doses beforehand.


It also works pretty accurate by volumetric dosing.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

As a K10 Fresh, Graef CM95 and Compak K6 owner, and a big fan of on-demand/timed grinders - I'd go for a Zenith 65E (or, if cash is tighter, a DKS-65).

As dfk has said, what could be easier than "put PF on holder, push button with PF, 17.5g of nicely ground coffee drops into basket"??? If it's 17g, and what appears in the cup is still very drinkable, then so what...

I wouldn't change from timed dosing to anything else... (and the K6 is heading this way too - watch this space).


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

I have always wondered though for those which use an on demand and use the timer:

Every time you adjust the grind (not only during dialing-in but also every a few days as the beans get older or for cafes which adjust every a few hours or so), don't you also have to adjust the timer?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

My first impression

The wastage is akin to a caffeine addict house guest, who turns up everytime you pay a visit to the grinder insisting you make them one.


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## 7877 (Aug 14, 2014)

charris said:


> I have always wondered though for those which use an on demand and use the timer:
> 
> Every time you adjust the grind (not only during dialing-in but also every a few days as the beans get older or for cafes which adjust every a few hours or so), don't you also have to adjust the timer?


Yes a little. I seem to experience drop off points so when the beans get to a certain age I have to tweak the grind. But every bean is different.

Adjusting the timer on the 65e is a piece of cake. It has two timings, one for a single and one for a double....they go in .1 sec increments and as low as 1 sec. On top of this, you can grind untimed also. The Shute angle can be adjusted so it's easy to grind into the portafilter direct which are on (edit: can go) scales if you prefer.

For me serving up maybe 4 drinks a day and more at weekends it's brilliant. Easy to clean, not very much retention (a knock on the work surface usually drops them out) and hardly any mess on the counter.....with my old rocky doser, relatively in comparison I had grounds everywhere and was forever cleaning them up.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

charris said:


> I have always wondered though for those which use an on demand and use the timer:
> 
> Every time you adjust the grind (not only during dialing-in but also every a few days as the beans get older or for cafes which adjust every a few hours or so), don't you also have to adjust the timer?


I'm only familiar with a couple of grinders that change grindingtime automatically, when you readjust the grind, all the other grinders on the market need to be adjusted

on a k30 not so much, but it's also a pain to do so.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

GaryG said:


> Hi all
> 
> As a person who only makes coffee for himself 3 times a day I never look past an on demand grinder.
> 
> ...


Just diving into this thread, a lot of good information already given.

For grind "quality", I'd definitely recommend some form of large conical (or large flats).

Unfortunately, whether doser/non-doser they aren't exactly economical (the majority at least).

Given the remit of 3 cups a day, I'd say retention will become an issue at some point.

Have you considered any hand grinding options? HG one etc?


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

Mazzer's doserless version, is basically the same grinder as the doser counterpart, the only real difference, is that the E model has a funnel attached to the front and a digital timer.

Pretty much any high end doserless grinder, that has been designed as such, perform better then a mazzer, with these grinders you don't need to be an expert in redistributing the grind, the k30 will simply outperform a mazzer when not used by a skilled person, simply because Mazzers dos a terrible job at distributing the grinds in the PF.

if you want to keep wast at a minimum a doser grinder is to be preferred, unless you can afford a Mythos, Ek43 or grind by hand


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The robur and the kony electronics do not struggle with distribution, plus the other difference that contributes to the retention in the Mazzer on demand grinder is the anti staic screen on the exit to the burr carrier assembly.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

that depend on the grinders you compare them to. when you look at distribution, the conic versions of the mazzer grinders are still inferior to Mythos and k30.

On a mazzer you'll get a pile a little to the left (on most of them), you don't see that on a Myhos or K30.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I have used them all on events and at home the delivery on the mythos and k30 is very good, your sweeping statement was that ALL mazzers do a terrible job which just simply is not true, the lower end ones are shite agreed.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Just to chip in...the new Compaks that we now stock are perfectly fine to use at home. They're also fairly compact in size, especially with the mini hopper. Retention doesn't seem to be a particular issue at all although I haven't measured this. Personally, I think accuracy in dosing is important. I set the timer once I've dialled in and this works fine, I tend to get reliable results within about 0.1g. So, I would set the timer so that I get 18.1 for a 18g dose and then I just take out anything above 18g from the basket.

It does mean weighing everything before pulling the shot (ie weighing the porterfilter, tearing the scales and then weighing agin once the grinder has dispensed the coffee) but I don't mind that. I did a busy market with Callum last weekend and every single basket was checked for weight before a shot was pulled, for us it's pretty much essential for quality control. It's like anything else, you find a good way of doing it and it gets quick and efficient.

We've also done markets using the EK43 which meant spending ages beforehand weighing out the beans and putting them in tins. Service is then pretty quick but the dosing won't be as accurate I suspect due to the issues with thwacking etc. Also, turning the grinder on and off all the time takes an extra bit of time.

Similarly, we've worked with modded Royals but it's more messing around with the doser and you'll always have bits of coffee in the chamber, regardless of how good the mods are.

I now have an E8 in my kitchen and it's working a treat. It's quick, clean and very reliable. The timer can be easily adjusted in a matter of seconds and you can set three doses. Another button gives you a really quick blast, maybe 0.2-0.4 g in case you're a bit short. A 18g dose of our current El Salvador coffee takes 4.23 seconds from pressing the button, which you can do with the porterfilter itself, so no extra hands needed.

Once set up, I'm not sure how it could get much easier than this.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Totally agree with above, into have the e8 paired with my gs3 mp at the moment and it is so simple and fast, I do however run it with at least 100 grams of beans in the hopper and a weight on to of that


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> Totally agree with above, into have the e8 paired with my gs3 mp at the moment and it is so simple and fast, I do however run it with at least 100 grams of beans in the hopper and a weight on to of that


I Actually considered an E model, but these grinder are new to the market, and I'm not a big fan of purchasing the very first model of anything electronic. And the price is still rather steep, €400 more then a k10 is to much IMHO. And I paid half of that for an older k10!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The e models are better than the fresh variants, you pay your money you take your chance, I got a k10 conic for next to nothing when bought with two other grinders last year and they are superb. It all depends whether someone wants a warranty or not, I have the e8 and e10 for my training venue as they are easy to adjust, reliable and great grind quality.

Furthermore the technology on these is tried and tested, the mechanism has gone back to the top adjust that the k10 PB has, as well as the same grind path which means low retention, compak electronics are pretty reliable and this one is now simpler that the fresh series so no risk at all really.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> The e models are better than the fresh variants, you pay your money you take your chance, I got a k10 conic for next to nothing when bought with two other grinders last year and they are superb. It all depends whether someone wants a warranty or not, I have the e8 and e10 for my training venue as they are easy to adjust, reliable and great grind quality.
> 
> Furthermore the technology on these is tried and tested, the mechanism has gone back to the top adjust that the k10 PB has, as well as the same grind path which means low retention, compak electronics are pretty reliable and this one is now simpler that the fresh series so no risk at all really.


But the electronics on the E is still new, meaning there is bound to be issues. I have never heard of electronics that where perfect in it's first edition.

But it dos look promising and I might update my k10 with the E10 when the price has been lowered in a few years.


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

malling said:


> But the electronics on the E is still new, meaning there is bound to be issues. I have never heard of electronics that where perfect in it's first edition...


Nothing a bit of electronics bypass can't handle... Or a warranty for that matter.

Have you had experience or know of many grinders, particularly Compaks that have had failing electronics?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Unless I have missed something, prices usually go up over time, not down.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The price on the K10 E is quite reasonable, being at virtually the same price point as the K10 fresh, the model before. This means the r & d has not been charged to the customer which is refreshing. Look at the Ek. Why has it gone up in price so much.......cos they are greedy of course


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Beanosaurus said:


> Nothing a bit of electronics bypass can't handle... Or a warranty for that matter.


Agreed. I've never heard of problems with the electronics on these. The warranty would cover any problems in the first year but I think it's really unlikely that they would arise. They are tested and built for service, after all. As stated, the compaks do have a manual switch that means the grinder will work without the electronics, same functionality less the timer.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

Not entirely correct, the price for the fresh is still below the price point it where introduced at. I considered the fresh back then, but found the price to high, it's slightly more reasonable now.

the prices hasn't increased on allot of electronic products, especially not if you correct the price for inflation.

there is a difference between failing and minor issues, the Fresh had a few issues with grind setting in the first version

fortunately you do not need to bypass the electronics, the switch can bypass it!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

There will be something better at the price point in two years time live for the now dag num it!


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

I might have, but I could get a "new" (not the latest model) k10 for 721 pounds.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The fresh has enormous retention issues. The E10 does not.........do you have an answer for that malling? You pays your money you takes your choice. I found the PB to be an absolute pain and not designed for home use. If you are in an environment where you can just turn the switch and fill the doser and dispense, it excels. If you are single dosing it is marginally better but the on off switch is a pain. If you are grinding from a hopper, it is a pain. if you are willing to go through that routine to save a few bob, then you are most welcome


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> The fresh has enormous retention issues. The E10 does not.........do you have an answer for that malling? You pays your money you takes your choice. I found the PB to be an absolute pain and not designed for home use. If you are in an environment where you can just turn the switch and fill the doser and dispense, it excels. If you are single dosing it is marginally better but the on off switch is a pain. If you are grinding from a hopper, it is a pain. if you are willing to go through that routine to save a few bob, then you are most welcome


Most on demand "titan" conicals has enormous retention issues







the E10 might (if the story holds any truth) be one of the first on demand conical that dos not suffer from the above problem.

NS where one of the first companies to address this problem, with their on demand grinder, even with a hopper load on top. their closest rival Mahlkönig/Ditting has still to improve the k30 design, in this regard.

Most big flat burr grinders still have a 10g or so retention, that is allot of coffee waste, if you run three sessions in on day, like I usually do. And we all know that the old stale coffee is getting mixed with the freshly grounded, so purging 10g would not be enough. In other words I could easily see myself throw out 40-50g of coffee each and every day.

I do not have to wast all that coffee with a k10pb, it might not be as pleacent to use as an on demand grinder, but First of all a propper on demand grinder suited for home is at this stage simply to expensive unless you want to handgrind.

besides most on demand are horrible/useless at SD. I hope Compak has addressed this, with the essential on demand line

I truly doubt we are going to see anything revolutionary within the next two years, Mazzer have just released the Kold, NS the Mythos, Compak the Essential line, they need to cash in on their investment before they will put new product on the market.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

So where exactly do you think this waste lies then?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The reason the E10 is better us that it shares the same adjustment collar as the PB. The retention is I any space in the burr chamber not just retained in the exit chute. Take your top burrs off and have a look


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

I know where the retention is located







after all i need to purge the grinder to get all the coffee out from the chamber. that is also why I'm sceptic with what people have stated regarding the E model retention.


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## billcoxfam (Jan 8, 2013)

I don't get the issues some have with single dosing on the K10 F.

16g into the rubber hopper, a few pulses, a gentle tap on the hopper with the palm of the hand, 16g out, no retention. Simple!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

It's not the same 16 g is it though or u have the worlds first no retention conical grinder


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## billcoxfam (Jan 8, 2013)

It absolutely is, the puff of air, especially when the burrs are turning seems to clear the entire grinding chamber.


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

malling said:


> ...there is a difference between failing and minor issues, the Fresh had a few issues with grind setting in the first version
> 
> fortunately you do not need to bypass the electronics, the switch can bypass it!


I was inferring that the grinder has an electronics bypass.

We clearly got the wrong end of each other's stick.

Thanks for the video though...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

malling said:


> I know where the retention is located
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know who you are Malling, or your background, but you own a grinder with exactly the same mechanism as the e10 so if you wanted to single dose ( which I can't understand with any on demand grinder) then you can, it would take some time to get it all out but it is possible, as it is on the k10f, however the beans will pop corn and won't grind as consistently, But what is the bloody point, get a short hopper leave the coffee in the grind path that is pretty well sealed and purge the first part out of the chute, use a weight on top of the beans and you will get accurate doses and MOST people won't have the pallet to tell the difference!

You have made some sweeping statements that are based on what? I hope personal experience ( I refer you to "all mazzer electronic grinders are rubbish at distribution" comment) as that might have some credence. Many people have modified the " big flat burr grinders" for example the royal, so that what goes in comes out the other end ( not 10 gram retention), the point here is as has been said many times before, *Most on demand grinders only work as intended with weight of bean, or a weight to simulate that weight*, so unless you are prepared to purge then don't buy one.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> I don't know who you are Malling, or your background, but you own a grinder with exactly the same mechanism as the e10 so if you wanted to single dose ( which I can't understand with any on demand grinder) then you can, it would take some time to get it all out but it is possible, as it is on the k10f, however the beans will pop corn and won't grind as consistently, But what is the bloody point, get a short hopper leave the coffee in the grind path that is pretty well sealed and purge the first part out of the chute, use a weight on top of the beans and you will get accurate doses and MOST people won't have the pallet to tell the difference!
> 
> You have made some sweeping statements that are based on what? I hope personal experience ( I refer you to "all mazzer electronic grinders are rubbish at distribution" comment) as that might have some credence. Many people have modified the " big flat burr grinders" for example the royal, so that what goes in comes out the other end ( not 10 gram retention), the point here is as has been said many times before, *Most on demand grinders only work as intended with weight of bean, or a weight to simulate that weight*, so unless you are prepared to purge then don't buy one.


Yes you can modify it, and if you'r any good at it, it can improve on the retention issues, my point is just that you shouldn't have to, and then it's really not in it's stock configuration any longer. If you leave it as it is, it is not very great compared to what it could be, Mythos and K30 has shown that it is possible for an on demand grinder to have almost equal distribution to that of a doser, if you want to put an on demand grinder on the market, then please do it properly, and Mythos has also very little retention even with a hopper, and with the coffee prices constantly creeping upwards, this is very importent.

For a very long time the k30 where pretty much, the only well made on demand grinder on the market, but the chute is very long and it has a bend so retention will always be an issue.

personally I would never SD an On demand grinder, first of all why pay for the electronics if you have no intention of using it. but someone else might feel otherwise.

with the trend of SD even in commercial setting, every new grinder should be able to SD without all the issues we have normally seen, compak have noticed that, that is why they made a switch on the essential to bypass the electronic doser and made a short stack for it.


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