# Barista Express | Niche Zero



## mlc8446 (Sep 21, 2020)

Hi I'm a new member so thought I'd share my setup. I've got a Sage Barista Express which I bought about 6 months ago and after a couple months of usage I decided to get a Niche Zero. Both are great bits of kit but I'd love to get a dual boiler machine eventually so I can steam milk and pour espresso at the same time. Hope you guys like it!


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

Great choice. When I started to use the Niche with the BE the difference was like night and day compared to the BE built in grinder!


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## mlc8446 (Sep 21, 2020)

It really is a big difference! Don't get me wrong, I love the barista express and it was a great first step into the coffee world without spending too much money. But it really is an upgrade using the niche alongisde the barista express. Love it


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## strebor (Oct 20, 2020)

I've got a BE and just recently got a Niche. I am not noticing a huge difference (yet) to be honest. It's a bit disappointing - can't tell if I'm doing something wrong, or I just got good at using my BE, which I've had for >5 years.

Any advice you can offer going from BE to Niche? Did your workflow change significantly? What were the biggest changes you noticed?


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## mlc8446 (Sep 21, 2020)

So with the Niche I just found the dialling in experience much better, and it was much easier to make finer adjustments.

I still think the results can be inconsistent from time to time, even if i do everything exactly the same from the previous day it can choke - but i'm guessing that's to do with the machine pouring coffee after I've steamed milk.

In terms of workflow, I tend to turn on my machine and get it hot, grind my coffee and get it read in the portafilter, then i steam my milk and extract the espresso. So it still takes a good few minutes to make a coffee but overall I find the niche much easier to use, also quieter than the standard grinder on the Barista Express.


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## strebor (Oct 20, 2020)

mlc8446 said:


> So with the Niche I just found the dialling in experience much better, and it was much easier to make finer adjustments.
> 
> I still think the results can be inconsistent from time to time, even if i do everything exactly the same from the previous day it can choke - but i'm guessing that's to do with the machine pouring coffee after I've steamed milk.
> 
> In terms of workflow, I tend to turn on my machine and get it hot, grind my coffee and get it read in the portafilter, then i steam my milk and extract the espresso. So it still takes a good few minutes to make a coffee but overall I find the niche much easier to use, also quieter than the standard grinder on the Barista Express.


 I agree. The Niche is miles better than the BE for making finer adjustments. And it's very quiet which is just great.

I've just not noticed a leap in the quality of taste, which I was hoping for. What was your experience with this aspect?


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

strebor said:


> I've just not noticed a leap in the quality of taste, which I was hoping for. What was your experience with this aspect?


 Very interested in this too. Looking at getting a Niche but am wondering about compared quality in the cup. I'm expecting better, but it's hard quantify the price-quality ratio. Diminishing returns seems to set in very quickly with coffee.

Everyone will say it's relative, is the taste better/worth it for you, which doesn't help much before trying it, but what I don't want (I'll sell it of course but I don't really want that hassle) is to pay £500 for a small bump in flavour. Unfortunately I think the answer is just to buy it and find out.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You control cup quality more than the grinder. If your current grinder has the range of adjustment you need and adjusts in small enough intervals, you're not going to get a massive leap in cup quality with another normal grinder.

The Niche will certainly give you more adjustability, wider range of grind size if you want to make coffee with methods that use coarser grinds.

The best way to get a leap in quality & consistency is to control the brew inputs as tightly as you can (give the grounds a good shake to mix everything well before transferring to PF, weigh the ground coffee in the PF, don't grind direct into the PF & don't use preset cup buttons, achieve target weight by using scales on the drip tray).


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## strebor (Oct 20, 2020)

See, that's very interesting. Thanks for the comment. And quite surprising.

Why do people go on so much about "fluffy grounds" and other things which better grinders can provide? I got the impression from various sources when researching that the grind quality and hence grinder really impact the quality of the coffee taste. But what you're saying is counter to that. Or, have you got to spend £3k on a grinder before it really becomes noticeable to an enthusiast such as myself?


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## strebor (Oct 20, 2020)

CocoLoco said:


> Very interested in this too. Looking at getting a Niche but am wondering about compared quality in the cup. I'm expecting better, but it's hard quantify the price-quality ratio. Diminishing returns seems to set in very quickly with coffee.
> 
> Everyone will say it's relative, is the taste better/worth it for you, which doesn't help much before trying it, but what I don't want (I'll sell it of course but I don't really want that hassle) is to pay £500 for a small bump in flavour. Unfortunately I think the answer is just to buy it and find out.


 You're thinking along the same lines as me. Right now, after a week or so of using the Niche, I'd say it's not worth the £500 _if_ you already have a BE and you just care about improvement in flavour. That's setting aside benefits of user experience, which is definitely better. But personally, that's not worth 500 quid.

Caveat to all of this: I might not be getting the best out of it yet.

Perhaps you should buy one anyway CocoLoco and we can compare notes


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

strebor said:


> See, that's very interesting. Thanks for the comment. And quite surprising.
> 
> Why do people go on so much about "fluffy grounds" and other things which better grinders can provide? I got the impression from various sources when researching that the grind quality and hence grinder really impact the quality of the coffee taste. But what you're saying is counter to that. Or, have you got to spend £3k on a grinder before it really becomes noticeable to an enthusiast such as myself?


 Fluffy (rather than clumpy) grounds are usually coarser grounds.

Better grinders are usually grinders that offer better resolution of adjustment, or scope of adjustment, or are quieter, or are prettier, or hold less ground coffee between doses.

Most grinders are 'normal' as regards grind quality in terms of distribution. As yet there is no study that suggest tighter distributions make nicer coffee.

Even if you spend £3k on a grinder, it won't make better coffee if you don't. Grinders break beans into little pieces, some do it within a smaller spread of sizes than others (which can mean you can grind finer without compromising the puck & hit higher extractions) but you make the coffee, what you do is often the limit...until it isn't & then you can decide what to do about it when you get there. If you don't have £3k to spend on a grinder, it's a problem you don't have to worry about.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

strebor said:


> You're thinking along the same lines as me. Right now, after a week or so of using the Niche, I'd say it's not worth the £500 _if_ you already have a BE and you just care about improvement in flavour. That's setting aside benefits of user experience, which is definitely better. But personally, that's not worth 500 quid.
> 
> Caveat to all of this: I might not be getting the best out of it yet.
> 
> Perhaps you should buy one anyway CocoLoco and we can compare notes


 The Niche is worth £500 without any shadow of a doubt. Quietness, ease of use, good dose consistency without sweeping/puffing chutes, range of grind size are all worth that money. The reason it has been so popular is that there were few options at that price bracket before it came a long. The burrs in it come out of a grinder that cost £1600.

If you do not have very specific demands in terms of your shot, then the advantages of the Niche might not change your life greatly. If, in time, you find the BE grinder becomes limiting, the Niche can give you more flexibilty.


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## strebor (Oct 20, 2020)

MWJB said:


> The Niche is worth £500 without any shadow of a doubt. Quietness, ease of use, good dose consistency without sweeping/puffing chutes, range of grind size are all worth that money. The reason it has been so popular is that there were few options at that price bracket before it came a long. The burrs in it come out of a grinder that cost £1600.
> 
> If you do not have very specific demands in terms of your shot, then the advantages of the Niche might not change your life greatly. If, in time, you find the BE grinder becomes limiting, the Niche can give you more flexibilty.


 I can appreciate the Niche is a well made piece of kit. No doubt. I just find - so far at least - I'm not overly fussed by the improvements you mention. I could already get pretty good dose consistency with single-dosing on the BE once I'd dialled in new bag of beans.

Yeah, the most limiting factor for me on the BE grinder was that it doesn't grind coarse. I partly got the Niche for filter, which I am enjoying playing with. But, I could've spent 100 quid or so on a Wilfa and probably had that end covered I guess.

I'm really not trying to shit on the Niche - just want to understand it better in the context of my current gear and experience.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

strebor said:


> I can appreciate the Niche is a well made piece of kit. No doubt. I just find - so far at least - I'm not overly fussed by the improvements you mention. I could already get pretty good dose consistency with single-dosing on the BE once I'd dialled in new bag of beans.
> 
> Yeah, the most limiting factor for me on the BE grinder was that it doesn't grind coarse. I partly got the Niche for filter, which I am enjoying playing with. But, I could've spent 100 quid or so on a Wilfa and probably had that end covered I guess.
> 
> I'm really not trying to shit on the Niche - just want to understand it better in the context of my current gear and experience.


 I don't understand what dialling in a bag of beans has to do with dose consistency. I'd rather people tried to establish dose consistency with a range of beans, with everyday adjustments, anyway for a real world scenario. You need 0.01g scales to determine this. What is the BE dose consistency, what are you actually measuring? I've made some measurements and I don't even know that everyone is measuring the same thing (for me it is difference between whole bean in & grounds out to 95% confidence level, or +/-0.4g for my Niche).

It would be more useful to find out what your prep & shot making procedure is, in order to help you get the best out of whatever you use.

You can make filter with £50 grinders, the difference in beverage quality does not track price in a linear fashion, but the Wilfa will be less of a pain to use than a £50 grinder, just like the Niche is more flexible than the Wilfa.


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## strebor (Oct 20, 2020)

So I single-dose with the BE.



Weigh 18g beans and then get 18g grounds out (send through another bean or two if there is say only 17.8g out due to variation).


Transfer to portafilter - I weigh beans/collect grounds using an espresso mug which neatly fits the rim of the PF, so I can flip the two together to transfer the grounds to the basket


Use rotation distribution tool


Tamp (I use calibrated tamper which helps with my consistency)


Run hot water through group head


Stick in portafilter


Extract coffee (normally 2:1 - separate thread has suggested I really play around with the ratio to get different tastes, ie: 3:1, 40s shot times etc)


With the Niche, I effectively do the same thing. One slight difference is in transferring the grounds to the portafilter - I use the supplied Niche metal cup to weigh/collect the grounds, because the espresso mug is too short meaning the grounds from the Niche funnel spray out of the sides. There is also less static with the metal cup. I still flip the Niche cup and portafilter together, but it requires paying attention so as not to slip and drop grounds everywhere!


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## mlc8446 (Sep 21, 2020)

strebor said:


> I agree. The Niche is miles better than the BE for making finer adjustments. And it's very quiet which is just great.
> 
> I've just not noticed a leap in the quality of taste, which I was hoping for. What was your experience with this aspect?


 So for my experience I agree slightly. I noticed some taste difference - but I wonder if that's mainly because I can get the grind to exactly where I want it. But unlike other people I didn't notice a massive flavour increase when people say they are getting all these flavour notes etc.

I have wondered about getting a machine with an E61 group head as my next purchase.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

MWJB said:


> You control cup quality more than the grinder. If your current grinder has the range of adjustment you need and adjusts in small enough intervals, you're not going to get a massive leap in cup quality with another normal grinder.
> 
> The Niche will certainly give you more adjustability, wider range of grind size if you want to make coffee with methods that use coarser grinds.
> 
> The best way to get a leap in quality & consistency is to control the brew inputs as tightly as you can (give the grounds a good shake to mix everything well before transferring to PF, weigh the ground coffee in the PF, don't grind direct into the PF & don't use preset cup buttons, achieve target weight by using scales on the drip tray).


 Thanks for this and your other comments. Very illuminating and really gets the heart of the issue for me.


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## Sirmol (Feb 13, 2019)

Looking good! Very jealous of the Niche


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

If you don't think there's a massive difference between the sage grinder n the niche I am worried tbh if you can see that, considering the BE burrs are 40mm and niche are 63mm. I noticed a HUGE change in taste when I upgraded to niche almost instantly, aswell as the usual things people have mentioned, grind size, no clumping, uniformed, quiet, efficient, almost zero retention, very well built, IMO this grinder should cost £800+


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Joe shorrock said:


> If you don't think there's a massive difference between the sage grinder n the niche I am worried tbh if you can see that, considering the BE burrs are 40mm and niche are 63mm. I noticed a HUGE change in taste when I upgraded to niche almost instantly, aswell as the usual things people have mentioned, grind size, no clumping, uniformed, quiet, efficient, almost zero retention, very well built, IMO this grinder should cost £800+


 It's very difficult to establish the role that the grinder (solely in terms of grind quality) has on your cup, without controlling & measuring several aspects. The Niche works as intended, but I haven't seen anything unusual in its grind & there is a wide tolerance for what works at a basic level.


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## EddieT (Oct 27, 2020)

I'm in the same boat, had a BE for almost a year now and waiting for a Niche to arrive. Excited to try it and have stepless adjustment. Now very curious to know if I will notice a difference in the cup from two equally dialled in shots. Fairly sure it'll be much easier to dial in with the niche. With the BE it's more luck when you happen on a grind setting that works there's such a jump between them. I only eve ever seem to move between 4 and 8, rarely go outside of those settings!


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## strebor (Oct 20, 2020)

EddieT said:


> I'm in the same boat, had a BE for almost a year now and waiting for a Niche to arrive. Excited to try it and have stepless adjustment. Now very curious to know if I will notice a difference in the cup from two equally dialled in shots. Fairly sure it'll be much easier to dial in with the niche. With the BE it's more luck when you happen on a grind setting that works there's such a jump between them. I only eve ever seem to move between 4 and 8, rarely go outside of those settings!


 Do let us know how you get on! Similar BE experience to me - I had a similar grind size range but generally found I would settle on a number and then furhter control the extraction time by tamping harder/softer or going to +/- 0.5-1.0g coffee. Realise this affects flavour, but it did work for me. The Niche will definitely help eliminate the need for such micro-management, but I'm intrigued to know how you get on with the overall taste in the cup!


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## EddieT (Oct 27, 2020)

strebor said:


> Do let us know how you get on! Similar BE experience to me - I had a similar grind size range but generally found I would settle on a number and then furhter control the extraction time by tamping harder/softer or going to +/- 0.5-1.0g coffee. Realise this affects flavour, but it did work for me. The Niche will definitely help eliminate the need for such micro-management, but I'm intrigued to know how you get on with the overall taste in the cup!


 I'll let you know. Out of interest how much do you dose normally? For ages I was chasing the 18g in with 30 second pull and couldn't seem to do it. I messaged someone on Instagram who had the same machine and always seemed to pull great shots and he said I should try dosing higher like 19-20g which works for him. I stick to 19g now as it seems to work better.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

EddieT said:


> I'll let you know. Out of interest how much do you dose normally? For ages I was chasing the 18g in with 30 second pull and couldn't seem to do it. I messaged someone on Instagram who had the same machine and always seemed to pull great shots and he said I should try dosing higher like 19-20g which works for him. I stick to 19g now as it seems to work better.


 30seconds has no relevance without knowing how much you are getting in yield. Sure the basket can hold 20g with a lot of coffee, but 18g does work just fine.


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## strebor (Oct 20, 2020)

EddieT said:


> I'll let you know. Out of interest how much do you dose normally? For ages I was chasing the 18g in with 30 second pull and couldn't seem to do it. I messaged someone on Instagram who had the same machine and always seemed to pull great shots and he said I should try dosing higher like 19-20g which works for him. I stick to 19g now as it seems to work better.


 Normally 18g in basket for me. Tweaked by say +/- 0.5g if I just can't get a decent shot time with the BE grind settings. It's always worked pretty well for me.

But others on here have suggested to me I try much different parameters and see how I go. Ie: 16g or 20g with much longer/shorter extraction times.

I've just bought some big bags of coffee from Coffee Compass, so I have enough beans that I'm really going to play around with these ranges using my Niche. Shift out of that 18g in/36g out/25-30s comfort zone I'm so used to!


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## EddieT (Oct 27, 2020)

MWJB said:


> 30seconds has no relevance without knowing how much you are getting in yield. Sure the basket can hold 20g with a lot of coffee, but 18g does work just fine.


 Fair point. I was going for 36g in that timeframe. If either ran too fast or I chocked the machine and I thought it was the jumps in grinder adjustment, but with hindsight I think my tamping was inconsistent.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

EddieT said:


> Fair point. I was going for 36g in that timeframe. If either ran too fast or I chocked the machine and I thought it was the jumps in grinder adjustment, but with hindsight I think my tamping was inconsistent.


 Use the grind size to steer flavour (rather than time), rather than try and constrict the shot with tamp, it'll just make the puck less permeable & extraction will continue to be low.


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

strebor said:


> I've got a BE and just recently got a Niche. I am not noticing a huge difference (yet) to be honest. It's a bit disappointing - can't tell if I'm doing something wrong, or I just got good at using my BE, which I've had for >5 years.
> 
> Any advice you can offer going from BE to Niche? Did your workflow change significantly? What were the biggest changes you noticed?


 I went from a Smart Grinder Pro (used alongside a Duo Temp Pro and then a Dual Boiler) to the Niche. I've noticed quite a big difference in the quality and consistency of my coffee. One bean in particular I've noticed a big difference with is a cheaper Italian roast which I often buy from the local supermarket when I'm running low on fresher beans. The only way I could get a decent flavour from this on the Dual Boiler was by using the pressurised basket. With the Niche I can get a pretty nice cup of coffee using the normal basket. I put this down to being able to pull shots at a noticeably coarser setting than on the SGP. I will say though that before I got the Niche I had my expectations in check, I wasn't expecting my coffee to always taste twice as good as it did from the SGP.

As to everything else I find the Niche far better. The workflow is a lot simpler; there is no need to purge beans through, being able to make micro adjustments to grind setting, I just really enjoy using the Niche as compared to the SGP and I've noticed that I'm not going through beans as quickly as I was.

Even if I hadn't noticed any change in flavour I would personally still be very happy with the Niche.


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## Waitforme (Dec 13, 2020)

Interesting thread, It's got me wondering if a £2-300 grinder will be good enough for my taste perception, pity there's not a try before you buy 🤔


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

Waitforme said:


> Interesting thread, It's got me wondering if a £2-300 grinder will be good enough for my taste perception, pity there's not a try before you buy


 Was just reading your post on the other thread before this one.

My advice is the same as the others were giving you. Don't skimp on the grinder. I would rather have a Niche Zero (£500) paired with a Delonghi Dedica (£150) that's modded to take a non pressurised basket, than a £2000 machine paired with a cheap £50-£200 grinder. Others may disagree, but that's my opinion.


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