# Sticky  Sage BE/Pro/DTP etc. read this first



## TomHughes

So, I think there are some very patient people on here who keep answering the same questions about the Sage on here.
So I thought maybe it's worth putting together a few quick points to really help sort out all the people who bought a Sage BE and other models at Christmas, or during this lockdown and are struggling to use it.
The Sage makes great coffee when you get it right, but it's an annoying beast who will undermine you until you suddenly nail it!

Maybe if it's worth it this could be a sticky?

OK - first things first,

1. What makes the Sage/Breville different, why do some of the regular rules not apply?
Because it has a thermocoil/jet instead of a boiler. I don't know how common this is or isn't in the coffee world. But by comparison, the Gaggia (which many will have started with) has a small boiler instead.
The coil is, as the name suggests a set of small pipes. Water is shot through and heated as it passes through.
I think of this as like an electric shower, in that flow can change the rate at which the water is heated. This is important for later!

Now, don't get me wrong, the Sage stuff seems to be well advanced compared to the old crappy thermoblock stuff. But it's still got issues you need to know about.

This means that you are not going to get the Sages warmed up by just switching them on. You are going to need to run a few cycles of hot water through it first.

My pro pulls its best shot on the 4th cycle and so on.

2. The Sages are technical in their control. This means
- The temp is very stable
- If you play by its rules (keep reading)

*3. Why you must use fresh beans in a Sage..... 1-5weeks old MAX!

This is probably the most important point so I've made it bold! 
Anytime you call Sage they will ask you if you've used fresh beans.

Why?*
Have you noticed when you use older beans you have to grind finer and finer? Changes in the bean from the environment (oxidation, moisture, etc.) not only make the bean become stale and lifeless but make it far quicker and easier to extract what flavour is left, the puck doesn't present much resistance (also no Co2 release) so it runs through fast.

If you want to see this in action grind a FRESH bean and leave overnight, then use the next day. No crema, fast tasteless extraction.

*WHY DOES THIS MATTER SO MUCH IN THE SAGE? *

Because the Sage relies on the flow being slowed down in the group head, to generate the right pressure and temp.
This is why if you measure the temp of the water just falling out of the group it will not be accurate, as the flow has increased through the thermocoil/jet and it might not be able to keep up with supplying fresh energy fast enough for heating.

Is this starting to make sense?

So your plan is

1. Buy a Sage

2. Buy some decent beans from Black cat, Rave, James Gourmet whoever,
*JUST DON'T PUT SUPERMARKET BEANS IN IT!

IF YOU ONLY HAVE CRAPPY BEANS GRIND THEM A LITTLE COARSER AND USE THE PRESSURISED BASKET (OR A FRENCH PRESS!)*

This is why so many people are asking why their extraction is so short.

4. The volumetric measure is WRONG!
Don't rely on it. measure it manually.

5. The grinder is inconsistent in its grind time. Every time you change the grind setting or bean the amount you get is different. It's even different day to day with exactly the same setting! So get a set of scales.

*BUY A SET OF SCALES - YOU NEED IT! *

6. The grinder top burr is set for fresh coffee, medium roast (mostly)
You can adjust the grinder with the side knob, but this is only a set of steps WITHIN a set of steps.

In my experience, the stock upper burr position (5?) is good for medium through to medium dark.

I have had to adjust it (down to 4) with anything lighter than that, such as a Guatemalan hard bean or weirdly a medium roast Monsooned Malabar.

This is also why your supermarket beans won't work with the standard settings, you may be able to get them to work with adjusting this burr

So if you're on number 1 on the grind setting and still getting a fast extraction you will need to adjust that burr.
But like bike gear there is crossover, so you may be able to keep it at number 4.

Can you see where this is going?

*To get the Sage to work optimally, both providing the right pressure and temp for a great extraction (or even a half-decent one) you have to create the right amount of resistance in the puck. 
Deviate from this even a small amount and the machine won't like it. *

*This is even more important in the new thermojet, the DTP and older models have more leeway. *

*Final point. *

*Weigh everything and ignore the pressure gauge!*

Final final point

The thermocoil/jet design has small pipes so the Sage is EXTREMELY prone to scale. So if your machine is more than a few months old or a refurb think scale first and use the right water in it!


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## Dalerst

@TomHughes you've missed the bit at the very end "if your new to the forum and dont yet have a machine, dont buy a sage"

In all honesty, its very well written and will help an new sage owner understand the basics of the machine ??


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## truegrace

Well written guide indeed.

I must admit I love my sage DB. It certainly doesn't have the same appeal as the R58 I had before this, but for ease of use to make great coffee I can't knock it. If it will last, only time will tell (only been using for 4 months) but for what I paid for it compared to the R58 I'm a happy chappy.

Def agree with the scales to weigh in and out, I have only ever used the manual button to get my desired weight and go slightly over or under the general time and haven't had a bad coffee out of it.

I know the sages receive alot of bad press, but will certainly do me until the wife wants something expensive so I can buy a L1!


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## TomHughes

Dalerst said:


> @TomHughes you've missed the bit at the very end "if your new to the forum and dont yet have a machine, dont buy a sage"
> 
> In all honesty, its very well written and will help an new sage owner understand the basics of the machine ??


 In all honestly the sage is a very capable machine, which can make a truly excellent cup of coffee. A far superior one to a gaggia classic for example. 
But it has three major flaws in my mind

1. It's marketed as a 'bean to cup' or a machine that a beginner can use straight from the off which I don't think is the case, like anything it has a learning curve. This is why we see so many posts on here of 'I bought a sage and I can't get a decent coffee from it'.

2. The grinder is very capable, but the timing feature doesn't fit with the way it works (slowing and speeding up), and beginners are led to believe that timing is all you need, so they don't weigh. I've had a 15 second grind from 2 different beans on the same setting give 15g and 18g, thats huge!

3. It doesn't have the flexibility to play around with variables at the other end. 
I don't think the temp control actually controls the temp, I *think* it alters the flow through the coil, to alter the temp. This is NOT the same! 
I definitely notice a slower pull at higher temps. 
It struggles with the single because of the way it uses resistance and pump pressure, the same goes with putting a lower amount in the basket. Mine honestly struggles at anything less than 18g, even if the grind is super fine.

That being said if you learn how to use it I think it can make an awesome cup of coffee for the money.


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## TomHughes

truegrace said:


> Well written guide indeed.
> 
> I must admit I love my sage DB. It certainly doesn't have the same appeal as the R58 I had before this, but for ease of use to make great coffee I can't knock it. If it will last, only time will tell (only been using for 4 months) but for what I paid for it compared to the R58 I'm a happy chappy.
> 
> Def agree with the scales to weigh in and out, I have only ever used the manual button to get my desired weight and go slightly over or under the general time and haven't had a bad coffee out of it.
> 
> I know the sages receive alot of bad press, but will certainly do me until the wife wants something expensive so I can buy a L1!


 Alas the Sage DB is a different beast and is a massive jump from these machines in my experience. You're lucky!


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## truegrace

Haha, for the price point surely the other sages can't be that bad?


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## PPapa

Sage is a superb machine for the price. It's also a very good choice for a beginner as it can be used straight out of the box. Gaggia Classic needs a PID mod to be as temperature stable as Sage thermocoil machines are.

Most of the points: grind time, volumetric, use fresh beans, use scale, etc. applies to whatever machine you've got and you want good results.


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## TomHughes

truegrace said:


> Haha, for the price point surely the other sages can't be that bad?


 They are good machines for the price, but they have significant limitations!


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## TomHughes

PPapa said:


> Sage is a superb machine for the price. It's also a very good choice for a beginner as it can be used straight out of the box. Gaggia Classic needs a PID mod to be as temperature stable as Sage thermocoil machines are.
> 
> Most of the points: grind time, volumetric, use fresh beans, use scale, etc. applies to whatever machine you've got and you want good results.


 It really can't be, hence why there are at least 10 posts on here about how to use it. Like any machine as you say it has those variables, but for some reason people think it can be just used straight from the box


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## Joe shorrock

truegrace said:


> Well written guide indeed.
> 
> I must admit I love my sage DB. It certainly doesn't have the same appeal as the R58 I had before this, but for ease of use to make great coffee I can't knock it. If it will last, only time will tell (only been using for 4 months) but for what I paid for it compared to the R58 I'm a happy chappy.
> 
> Def agree with the scales to weigh in and out, I have only ever used the manual button to get my desired weight and go slightly over or under the general time and haven't had a bad coffee out of it.
> 
> I know the sages receive alot of bad press, but will certainly do me until the wife wants something expensive so I can buy a L1!


 Found you finding the niche with the sage?


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## 24774

This is a really great post @TomHughes thank you for taking the time to explain all that. Sage BE is lots of people's first machine and it's not easy to get it right, leading to no little frustration. Very interesting stuff about temperature. I knew that was important, I heat the machine up, but didn't realise it gets hotter as you run it. I do one dummy shot before the real one, I will now do more, see how that effects it, slowing it down would be good.

Grind I've had much better results with since I adjusted the top burr. I now pull manual too as you suggested before and feel I am getting a much better shot.

Thanks again, great advice.


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## truegrace

Joe shorrock said:


> Found you finding the niche with the sage?


 The niche is a nice little grinder. Smaller foot print and quieter than my old SJ so the wife is happy, and get more defined flavours come through in the cup (possibly due to the conical?) than I ever did with the mazzer.

With a quick wdt in the portafilter don't get any noticeable channelling, just silky smooth spro in the cup

If anything making a coffee is too easy now!


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## 24774

@MildredM @The Systemic Kid Please can we sticky this post from @TomHughes ? It's extremely helpful to new Sage users, particularly BE users, which is fairly unique in that it is many people's first 'proper coffee' machine. People like myself that have zero previous experience to go on. We are unlike people that buy more expensive machines, they are usually are upgrading and so have experience of the basics.

Tom is right, the same questions keep getting asked as the main problem is often Sage users can't even get the machine to produce a drinkable shot, there's so much they are doing wrong as they don't know how to even couch the problem. It would be a good to have a thread where many of the very basics are addressed to get newbies off with a few obvious pointers.

I'm very new to coffee and it's taken me 3 months to get a shot I can say is 'really nice' (in my limited experience of course!). And that was with a lot of advice from this forum, piecing it together in a sort of random way. I think Sage users are unique here as the percentage of newbies is much, much higher than the other brands you have listed under 'Coffee machines' (bar maybe Gaggia) and would benefit more than other machine owners with a '101 of Sage coffee' as the first thing they see when clicking on the Sage forum.

Anyway, just an idea.


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## 24774

Just to add some pointers for newbies to add to Tom Hughes original post. I have had my Sage BE for 3 months and these are the main things I've learned and wish I knew day one (sorry if a couple of things are repeated from Tom):



Use fresh whole beans from a proper roaster (not supermarket, ever). That's roasted in the last two weeks. If you haven't got those, stop and wait until you do. Don't get ground either.


Scales. You need to weigh the coffee beans, the ground coffee put out from the grinder and then the actual shot.


Grind into a cup, not the portafilter. Use a homemade Weiss Distribution Tool (look this up, it's basically 3 unwound paperclips). It breaks up clumps. Make one yourself and stir grounds in cup before adding to portafilter. Use a funnel when transferring to portafilter. Move top of grounds with finger to distribute and flatten them out. Tap portafilter on side to get a more even surface before tamping.


Replace the tamper that comes with it with the Motta 53mm one. Not essential but it's way better. Tamp evenly and firmly. Use the Razor to make sure you're near the right level from top of portafilter, but I've found this isn't essential. In fact I've found just above the Razor level is more consistent.


Heat up machine with portafilter in grouphead for 20-30mins before making a coffee. If you don't have time, run empty shots through the portafilter. The portafilter and grouphead need to be hot.


If you're having trouble with the grinds not being fine enough, adjust the top burr setting inside the machine. That is not the dial on the side. Look up on Youtube how to do this (video below).


As Tom said, run 4 empty shots before your actual shot. I do a double, single, single, double). This is HUGE. Changed the game for me. It gets the water much hotter than if you pulled shot on the first or second time.


Use filtered water, not tap water.


Use the double unpressurised basket. The pressurised dual wall ones are for ground coffee and aren't really what you want. Start with double unpressurised basket, it's all you need. Once you get good maybe you go to single unpressurised (that's harder to get right).


Don't worry too much about the 1:2 ratio. I use 18g-19g and get about 55g out atm. It's about taste. Once you have a good taste, play with settings etc to get a lesser dose if you want. But get to a good taste first.


Pull your shot manually. This means, you don't just press the 'Double Button', stand back and let the machine run it's predetermined shot time. Look in the manual that came with machine, it tells you how to do it there. Put scales under shot glass, do about 7/8 seconds pre-infusion and 25-30 seconds for the shot. Play with it, maybe you want a bit more, bit less depending on your coffee. But that's the basic range.


These things helped me go from a sour or bitter coffee, that poured too fast, to a slow, more honey-like pour you see on videos. Get these things sorted and you'll be on your way. Good luck!

Links for things I've mentioned:

Cheap scales: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01JKX4QAC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Funnel: https://www.amazon.co.uk/53mm-Coffee-Grinder-Dosing-Funnel/dp/B07SLYCCRR/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=54..+coffee+funnel&qid=1587246814&sr=8-1

Motta Tamper: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009TO5PSK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

How to adjust top burr:


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## adam85

CocoLoco said:


> Grind into a cup, not the portafilter. Use a *homemade Weiss Distribution Tool (look this up, it's basically 3 unwound paperclips)*. It breaks up clumps. Make one yourself and stir grounds in cup before adding to portafilter. Use a funnel when transferring to portafilter. Move top of grounds with finger to distribute and flatten them out. Tap portafilter on side to get a more even surface before tamping.


 ...Another excuse for me to show what I made at Christmas 😅😁 In my opinion, works well --- and in this time of lockdown, you've every right to make use of a bottled drink that has a cork to use 🙃

Nice advice chaps!


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## 24774

adam85 said:


> ...Another excuse for me to show what I made at Christmas 😅😁 In my opinion, works well --- and in this time of lockdown, you've every right to make use of a bottled drink that has a cork to use 🙃
> 
> Nice advice chaps!
> 
> View attachment 38308


 That's very nice, I saw that when you posted it before and was very impressed. I bought the whisk you said you used, had the champagne cork my sister had sent ready and tried to replicate what you had done. So the whisk arrived, I got the pliers out....and completely destroyed the whisk! I'm now back to 3 unwound paperclips bound with that stretchy pipe tape.


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## Tonino

Hi guys,

thanks for sharing your tips, there are helpful but I think you have some observations wrong. Sage coffee machines are absolutely great in making a home espresso. They heat up super quickly, keep their temperature constant and are very easy to operate, clean and maintain. The only negative I can think for the entry level sage like bambino or DTP is that they are not really suitable for making more drinks at one go, but they are not supposed to. Sage are appliances type coffee makers that are the best in their class. Gaggia classic it's a machine and is even capable of making a coffee in a trade, if you have a small bbq caravan and you sell only few coffees a day that is what you need but for home use for one or two coffees a day sage is far more superior. For the rest of the tips regarding beans, freshness etc, same applies to all makes and models imo., no offence to any coffee member, just sharing my experience. 
Regards


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## TomHughes

Tonino said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> thanks for sharing your tips, there are helpful but I think you have some observations wrong. Sage coffee machines are absolutely great in making a home espresso. They heat up super quickly, keep their temperature constant and are very easy to operate, clean and maintain. The only negative I can think for the entry level sage like bambino or DTP is that they are not really suitable for making more drinks at one go, but they are not supposed to. Sage are appliances type coffee makers that are the best in their class. Gaggia classic it's a machine and is even capable of making a coffee in a trade, if you have a small bbq caravan and you sell only few coffees a day that is what you need but for home use for one or two coffees a day sage is far more superior. For the rest of the tips regarding beans, freshness etc, same applies to all makes and models imo., no offence to any coffee member, just sharing my experience.
> Regards


 I think you may have missed the point of the post. Or you didn't read it?

It was never designed to criticise Sage machines, I have one and for the money it's great. 
And as I re-iterated it could learn how it works you can make a truly excellent coffee from it, far better than most machines. 
But it has some things in the way it works that might leave a newbie stumped.

Hence why we have had a least 10 recent threads about why I can't get a decent coffee from it. This would go against the idea you can use it out of the box, which sage seem to promote. As such even on Amazon it is labelled as 'bean to cup'.

So I thought I would share my experiences having owned 3 of them, and how you can learn to adapt to the specifics of the machine itself. And then it will give you great coffee.


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## 4085

Tonino said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> thanks for sharing your tips, there are helpful but I think you have some observations wrong. Sage coffee machines are absolutely great in making a home espresso. They heat up super quickly, keep their temperature constant and are very easy to operate, clean and maintain. The only negative I can think for the entry level sage like bambino or DTP is that they are not really suitable for making more drinks at one go, but they are not supposed to. Sage are appliances type coffee makers that are the best in their class. Gaggia classic it's a machine and is even capable of making a coffee in a trade, if you have a small bbq caravan and you sell only few coffees a day that is what you need but for home use for one or two coffees a day sage is far more superior. For the rest of the tips regarding beans, freshness etc, same applies to all makes and models imo., no offence to any coffee member, just sharing my experience.
> Regards


 What a load of tosh! Have you ever had a GAggia Classic? I suggest you think about what you write, and perhaps you can show us a handful of examples of small commercial coffee stations using suck kit


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## 24774

Tonino said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> thanks for sharing your tips, there are helpful but I think you have some observations wrong. Sage coffee machines are absolutely great in making a home espresso. They heat up super quickly, keep their temperature constant and are very easy to operate, clean and maintain. The only negative I can think for the entry level sage like bambino or DTP is that they are not really suitable for making more drinks at one go, but they are not supposed to. Sage are appliances type coffee makers that are the best in their class. Gaggia classic it's a machine and is even capable of making a coffee in a trade, if you have a small bbq caravan and you sell only few coffees a day that is what you need but for home use for one or two coffees a day sage is far more superior. For the rest of the tips regarding beans, freshness etc, same applies to all makes and models imo., no offence to any coffee member, just sharing my experience.
> Regards


 Apologies, but have you even read our posts? What observations precisely are wrong? Be specific. We never said the Sages aren't great machines, especially for beginners. I love mine and would recommend it to a newbie. Yes they are easy compared to more expensive machines, but they take months to understand, it's not plug it in and off you go day one like Sage and the marketing suggest. No-one said they are supposed to make multiple drinks at once did they, so what are you talking about?

'For the rest of the tips regarding beans, freshness' - that's one tip that newbies don't immediately know. Worth mentioning as it effects everything. That it always applies...so what? What's your point? It's one tip at the top of what, 30/40 others? And the rest of your post is irrelevant (and dubious as dfk41 points out).

Really, what a pointless and maybe confusing post for a newbie. If you don't have any constructive tips for a newbie, start another topic to discuss the merits of the Sages. This one is for new users to help get started with their new machines.


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## PPapa

dfk41 said:


> What a load of tosh! Have you ever had a GAggia Classic? I suggest you think about what you write, and perhaps you can show us a handful of examples of small commercial coffee stations using suck kit


There's a point where a beginner learns few things, finds what works for him/her and starts preaching as if it was the truth.

I'll call this "beginner-yet-knows-it-all effect". This applies to posts all over this thread, including OP.


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## 24774

PPapa said:


> There's a point where a beginner learns few things, finds what works for him/her and starts preaching as if it was the truth.
> 
> I'll call this "beginner-yet-knows-it-all effect". This applies to posts all over this thread, including OP.


 I've noticed there's also a point where experienced users are unhelpful and arrogant, sometimes doing more harm than good.

I'll call this the 'Experienced-yet-detrimental effect'. Thankfully this is usually a very polite forum and it's uncommon.

No-one is preaching, no-one is saying these are cast iron rules or saying they know it all. My post is prefaced 'I have had my Sage BE for 3 months and these are the main things I've learned and wish I knew day one', I'm saying these are helpful tips I got from people that have really helped with this particular machine. Tom Hughes has helped me and others a lot, he's made some great points helpful to newbies.

Really, if you don't have anything productive to say, keep your snide comments to yourself please. At least post them in a thread that isn't for people brand new to coffee. Trying to work this stuff out and asking for help can be intimidating enough, it doesn't need 'old heads' mocking people.


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## TomHughes

PPapa said:


> There's a point where a beginner learns few things, finds what works for him/her and starts preaching as if it was the truth.
> 
> I'll call this "beginner-yet-knows-it-all effect". This applies to posts all over this thread, including OP.


 I'm sorry you feel that way. 
Seeing as I have had espresso machines for a good while, and sages for around 5 years now, owning 3 of them and using them all at some point. 
I also have an analytical brain that lives off improvement, so have spent many hours researching and trying to improve what I can get out of the sage. 
I now feel I can produce a coffee that rivals most machines, but only when I learned how to use the sage properly.

However if you feel that you would prefer to provide something more constructive then please go ahead. Otherwise your posts are not all that helpful.


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## Dalerst

I've owned a sage for only 4 months and wish it post was available to me from day one. Everyone needs to learn and post like ghis will help most people.


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## Tonino

Hello coffee friends,

I apologise if I had offended anyone, never mean to, I did only shared my personal thoughts and experience. Sage machines are designed exactly to deliver best possible experience for both new and experienced coffee lovers, all useful tips you share here applies to all brands coffee machines, that actually was my point of comment, been a sage machine does not require using a fresher beans that if you make coffee with la marzocco or Rancilio.

"The sage makes great coffee when you get it right, but it's an annoying beast who will undermine you until you suddenly nail it!

" - with respect here and I agree with that, but my point is that those are relevant for all machines not only Sage. Regarding Gaggia Classic, I had few of them, worked on few of them and sold few of them, and yes there are people that uses them for business, they keep them 10-12 hours ON and do around 30 espressos a day and 10-15 cups of tea, no problems at all. The businesses are not in U.K., No argument with any member, I respect all and each opinion. But we are all different and experience different things differently. Have a good day. 
Stay safe ☕


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## cuprajake

Well

I for one have had better results on the dtp than i did with a classic

I know which suits me better. Mite say more about me haha


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## 24774

Tonino said:


> Hello coffee friends,
> 
> I apologise if I had offended anyone, never mean to, I did only shared my personal thoughts and experience. Sage machines are designed exactly to deliver best possible experience for both new and experienced coffee lovers, all useful tips you share here applies to all brands coffee machines, that actually was my point of comment, been a sage machine does not require using a fresher beans that if you make coffee with la marzocco or Rancilio.
> 
> "The sage makes great coffee when you get it right, but it's an annoying beast who will undermine you until you suddenly nail it!
> 
> " - with respect here and I agree with that, but my point is that those are relevant for all machines not only Sage. Regarding Gaggia Classic, I had few of them, worked on few of them and sold few of them, and yes there are people that uses them for business, they keep them 10-12 hours ON and do around 30 espressos a day and 10-15 cups of tea, no problems at all. The businesses are not in U.K., No argument with any member, I respect all and each opinion. But we are all different and experience different things differently. Have a good day.
> Stay safe ☕
> 
> View attachment 38426


 Like I said, that's irrelevant, Sage owners often have zero idea about coffee, let alone other machines, what does it matter an advice applies to a £2k machine (if it even does). I don't see what other machines have to do with it, you're just confusing things.

You said I have some observations wrong? Which ones? Be specific. If you are right, it will help. I assume you have experience with a Sage right? If not, I suggest you stop clogging up a newbie thread please.


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## PPapa

Razor check for height is dubious at best.

18-19g in, 55g out is way too generous, but if you enjoy the results, great. It isn't a rule of thumb though. Even with EK43S, I rarely pull more than 55g out of a 18g dose. That's even with light roasts (Nordic).

Getting machine hot is an interesting point - what exactly are you heating up and how do you measure better results after 4th shot? What does heat up after leaving the machine for 30 minutes? It's been some time since I had a Sage, but it's mainly plastic and the grouphead doesn't have the thermal mass to maintain that temperature.


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## cuprajake

18g/55g is a 1:3 shot? Is it not


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## Flanners

PPapa said:


> There's a point where a beginner learns few things, finds what works for him/her and starts preaching as if it was the truth.
> 
> I'll call this "beginner-yet-knows-it-all effect". This applies to posts all over this thread, including OP.


 Everyone has to start somewhere

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/26819-sage-duo-temp-pro-aye-or-nae/?do=embed

I like this style of thread/discussions as they are still helping me with my DTP 4 yrs in.


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## tomsweddy

> On 18/04/2020 at 23:10, CocoLoco said:
> 
> Just to add some pointers for newbies to add to Tom Hughes original post. I have had my Sage BE for 3 months and these are the main things I've learned and wish I knew day one (sorry if a couple of things are repeated from Tom):
> 
> 
> 
> Use fresh whole beans from a proper roaster (not supermarket, ever). That's roasted in the last two weeks. If you haven't got those, stop and wait until you do. Don't get ground either.
> 
> 
> Scales. You need to weigh the coffee beans, the ground coffee put out from the grinder and then the actual shot.
> 
> 
> Grind into a cup, not the portafilter. Use a homemade Weiss Distribution Tool (look this up, it's basically 3 unwound paperclips). It breaks up clumps. Make one yourself and stir grounds in cup before adding to portafilter. Use a funnel when transferring to portafilter. Move top of grounds with finger to distribute and flatten them out. Tap portafilter on side to get a more even surface before tamping.
> 
> 
> Replace the tamper that comes with it with the Motta 53mm one. Not essential but it's way better. Tamp evenly and firmly. Use the Razor to make sure you're near the right level from top of portafilter, but I've found this isn't essential. In fact I've found just above the Razor level is more consistent.
> 
> 
> Heat up machine with portafilter in grouphead for 20-30mins before making a coffee. If you don't have time, run empty shots through the portafilter. The portafilter and grouphead need to be hot.
> 
> 
> If you're having trouble with the grinds not being fine enough, adjust the top burr setting inside the machine. That is not the dial on the side. Look up on Youtube how to do this (video below).
> 
> 
> As Tom said, run 4 empty shots before your actual shot. I do a double, single, single, double). This is HUGE. Changed the game for me. It gets the water much hotter than if you pulled shot on the first or second time.
> 
> 
> Use filtered water, not tap water.
> 
> 
> Use the double unpressurised basket. The pressurised dual wall ones are for ground coffee and aren't really what you want. Start with double unpressurised basket, it's all you need. Once you get good maybe you go to single unpressurised (that's harder to get right).
> 
> 
> Don't worry too much about the 1:2 ratio. I use 18g-19g and get about 55g out atm. It's about taste. Once you have a good taste, play with settings etc to get a lesser dose if you want. But get to a good taste first.
> 
> 
> Pull your shot manually. This means, you don't just press the 'Double Button', stand back and let the machine run it's predetermined shot time. Look in the manual that came with machine, it tells you how to do it there. Put scales under shot glass, do about 7/8 seconds pre-infusion and 25-30 seconds for the shot. Play with it, maybe you want a bit more, bit less depending on your coffee. But that's the basic range.
> 
> 
> These things helped me go from a sour or bitter coffee, that poured too fast, to a slow, more honey-like pour you see on videos. Get these things sorted and you'll be on your way. Good luck!
> 
> Links for things I've mentioned:
> 
> Cheap scales: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01JKX4QAC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Funnel: https://www.amazon.co.uk/53mm-Coffee-Grinder-Dosing-Funnel/dp/B07SLYCCRR/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=54..+coffee+funnel&qid=1587246814&sr=8-1
> 
> Motta Tamper: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009TO5PSK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> How to adjust top burr:


 Yo mate. DO you use this funnel (https://www.amazon.co.uk/53mm-Coffee-Grinder-Dosing-Funnel/dp/B07SLYCCRR/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=54..+coffee+funnel&qid=1587246814&sr=8-1) with the portafilter under the grinder? Otherwise its a bit tricky to activate the grinder right?


----------



## tomsweddy

TomHughes said:


> 6. The grinder top burr is set for fresh coffee, medium roast (mostly)
> You can adjust the grinder with the side knob, but this is only a set of steps WITHIN a set of steps.
> 
> In my experience the stock upper burr position (5?) is good for medium through to medium dark.
> 
> I have had to adjust it (down to 4) with anything lighter than that, such as a Guatemalan hard bean or weirdly a medium roast Monsooned Malabar.
> 
> This is also why your supermarket beans won't work with the standard settings, you may be able to get them to work with adjusting this burr
> 
> So if you're on number 1 on the grind setting and still getting a fast extraction you will need to adjust that burr.
> But like bike gear there is crossover, so you may be able to keep it at number 4.


 Hi Tom, I'm only really using the machine for classic tasting espressos. The beans I am (and intending in future) to use will only ever been dark roasts or slightly lighter dark roasts, probably never a full medium roast. Wondering if I should just adjust my burr setting now based off your advice here. What would you recommend for me, a new default of 4 or 5? Cheers!


----------



## 24774

tomsweddy said:


> Yo mate. DO you use this funnel (https://www.amazon.co.uk/53mm-Coffee-Grinder-Dosing-Funnel/dp/B07SLYCCRR/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=54..+coffee+funnel&qid=1587246814&sr=8-1) with the portafilter under the grinder? Otherwise its a bit tricky to activate the grinder right?


 Hi, no I do not use the funnel with the portafilter under the grinder. The portafilter will not fit under the grinder with the funnel on it. I grind into a small glass cup, use a WDT to break up clumps and then use the funnel when transferring to portafilter.


----------



## tomsweddy

CocoLoco said:


> Pull your shot manually. This means, you don't just press the 'Double Button', stand back and let the machine run it's predetermined shot time. Look in the manual that came with machine, it tells you how to do it there. Put scales under shot glass, do about 7/8 seconds pre-infusion and 25-30 seconds for the shot. Play with it, maybe you want a bit more, bit less depending on your coffee. But that's the basic range.


 Hey man - where you state 25-30 seconds above. is that INCLUDING the 7/8 seconds of pre infusion or not? Cheers


----------



## 24774

tomsweddy said:


> Hey man - where you state 25-30 seconds above. is that INCLUDING the 7/8 seconds of pre infusion or not? Cheers


 It is yeah, sorry I should have made that clearer. I can't edit it now.

So 30 seconds overall time, say 7seconds infusion + 23 seconds pouring for instance.


----------



## tomsweddy

CocoLoco said:


> It is yeah, sorry I should have made that clearer. I can't edit it now.
> 
> So 30 seconds overall time, say 7seconds infusion + 23 seconds pouring for instance.


 Thanks for clarifying. Certainly when you're weighing the output you really have to judge well when to take your finger off button, as for me its normally 5g before to achieve your target weight output!


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

Hi, I have a bean currently that is proving difficult, it's medium roast half caff and requires the finest setting I've ever needed to use of 6 on the Barista Pro which has its top burr set to 4. It starts off pretty slow but by about 20 seconds the flow speeds up quite a lot.

Am I maybe just finding the limitations of the grinder in the machine? I have a Niche coming in June.

Im struggling with dose, when dialling in dose how should I go about this? I have a darker roast that at 18g fills a basket but then a decaf at 19-20 that doesn't go up to the basket line?


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> Hi, I have a bean currently that is proving difficult, it's medium roast half caff and requires the finest setting I've ever needed to use of 6 on the Barista Pro which has its top burr set to 4. It starts off pretty slow but by about 20 seconds the flow speeds up quite a lot.
> 
> Am I maybe just finding the limitations of the grinder in the machine? I have a Niche coming in June.
> 
> Im struggling with dose, when dialling in dose how should I go about this? I have a darker roast that at 18g fills a basket but then a decaf at 19-20 that doesn't go up to the basket line?


 What is the specific bean and when was it roasted? 
Half caffs can be tricky in my experience, depending on the beans in the blend. The decaf I roast (columbian) needs a much finer grind and higher dose than most of the other coffees I use, so blending it with others is really tough.

A half caff in the sage grinder is a recipe for trouble too I think. When the grinder gets really fine (anything below say 5 on the number 5 burr setting) it gets inconsistent. The burrs are small and build quality isn't perfect. 
So when it's trying to grind really find (particularly with dense beans like a SHB or high altitude) it starts to struggle and you can hear it.

How does the grinder sound? does it sound like it speeds up and slows down?

I did a quick sift of a light roast fine grind from the BP and it was very inconistent. Lots of fines (not too much of an issue) but tonnes of boulders.

FWIW the mignon with it's small 50mm burrs isn't that much different. When you get up into the 60+ burr size it seems to improve. But also motor etc. driving that.

IMHO Yes, the grinder is now limiting you. You will notice a big difference with the Niche.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

TomHughes said:


> What is the specific bean and when was it roasted?
> Half caffs can be tricky in my experience, depending on the beans in the blend. The decaf I roast (columbian) needs a much finer grind and higher dose than most of the other coffees I use, so blending it with others is really tough.
> 
> A half caff in the sage grinder is a recipe for trouble too I think. When the grinder gets really fine (anything below say 5 on the number 5 burr setting) it gets inconsistent. The burrs are small and build quality isn't perfect.
> So when it's trying to grind really find (particularly with dense beans like a SHB or high altitude) it starts to struggle and you can hear it.
> 
> How does the grinder sound? does it sound like it speeds up and slows down?
> 
> I did a quick sift of a light roast fine grind from the BP and it was very inconistent. Lots of fines (not too much of an issue) but tonnes of boulders.
> 
> FWIW the mignon with it's small 50mm burrs isn't that much different. When you get up into the 60+ burr size it seems to improve. But also motor etc. driving that.
> 
> IMHO Yes, the grinder is now limiting you. You will notice a big difference with the Niche.


 This is the Lazy Afternoon blend from Black Cat Coffee, roasted on the 8th of May, a medium roast coffee from Brazil and Columbia. I've mostly been using decafs recently, but I'm finding anything other than darker roasts hard to get dialled in.

Im thinking I'm getting fines and boulders like you say, maybe channeling as well. I haven't noticed any variation with the grinder really apart from when the beans run out and it speeds up as I'm single dosing.

I'm using a distribution tool and then a push tamper set to 7mm the size of the razor dose tool. Should I grind coarser but increase dose?


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> This is the Lazy Afternoon blend from Black Cat Coffee, roasted on the 8th of May, a medium roast coffee from Brazil and Columbia. I've mostly been using decafs recently, but I'm finding anything other than darker roasts hard to get dialled in.
> 
> Im thinking I'm getting fines and boulders like you say, maybe channeling as well. I haven't noticed any variation with the grinder really apart from when the beans run out and it speeds up as *I'm single dosing. *
> 
> I'm using a distribution tool and then a push tamper set to 7mm the size of the razor dose tool. Should I grind coarser but increase dose?


 Ah, that's your problem.

Stop single dosing, put enough in for 2-3 days (it won't go stale in that time)

When you SD on the sage that last bit produces so much irregularity it's quite unbelievable.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

TomHughes said:


> Ah, that's your problem.
> 
> Stop single dosing, put enough in for 2-3 days (it won't go stale in that time)
> 
> When you SD on the sage that last bit produces so much irregularity it's quite unbelievable.


 I have given that a go with my darker beans as I'm pretty much out of the above, set at 10 on the grinder and it does sound a little inconsistent to be honest, I have given it a good clean before putting beans in the hopper.

Should I be trying to reduce the increase of speed towards the end or is it inevitable? This was much more uniform in flow compared to the half caff.

I may have to adjust the push tamper a little lower as the Razor dosing tool still takes a little when the push is set to 7mm, didn't stick to the group head this time which seems to occur randomly.


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> I have given that a go with my darker beans as I'm pretty much out of the above, set at 10 on the grinder and it does sound a little inconsistent to be honest, I have given it a good clean before putting beans in the hopper.
> 
> Should I be trying to reduce the increase of speed towards the end or is it inevitable? This was much more uniform in flow compared to the half caff.
> 
> I may have to adjust the push tamper a little lower as the Razor dosing tool still takes a little when the push is set to 7mm, didn't stick to the group head this time which seems to occur randomly.


 7mm sounds way too deep to me. I think the razor is 5?


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

TomHughes said:


> 7mm sounds way too deep to me. I think the razor is 5?


 Just got my tape measure out and it's 7mm. I'm going to swap these darker beans out as they are nearly a month old as well and the taste is going on them for sure.

I have the Seasonal Decaf from square mile to try now, it was roasted on the 12th of may. It's a Brazilian CO2 processed decaf.


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> Just got my tape measure out and it's 7mm. I'm going to swap these darker beans out as they are nearly a month old as well and the taste is going on them for sure.
> 
> I have the Seasonal Decaf from square mile to try now, it was roasted on the 12th of may. It's a Brazilian CO2 processed decaf.


 Ah ok, I don't bother with the razor, find about 5mm seems about right for headroom


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

TomHughes said:


> Ah ok, I don't bother with the razor, find about 5mm seems about right for headroom


 Do you ever change the water temperature for different roasts?

I set the Push to 7.2mm and it seems to be dead on now, really like how accurate you can be with the push. It helps me no end as I'm shite with a tamper when it comes to being level.

How do you work out dose for a new coffee? Just fill the portafilter and distribute until it's level or go for a specific weight. I try and stick to 19g as mush as possible as it would seem it is tied to flow restriction.

When I cleaned the grinder I set the hopper back to 6 from 4. Which made the Square mile go from 9 to 4 on the grinder. So far I haven't had great results with it.


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> Do you ever change the water temperature for different roasts?
> 
> I set the Push to 7.2mm and it seems to be dead on now, really like how accurate you can be with the push. It helps me no end as I'm shite with a tamper when it comes to being level.
> 
> How do you work out dose for a new coffee? Just fill the portafilter and distribute until it's level or go for a specific weight. I try and stick to 19g as mush as possible as it would seem it is tied to flow restriction.
> 
> When I cleaned the grinder I set the hopper back to 6 from 4. Which made the Square mile go from 9 to 4 on the grinder. So far I haven't had great results with it.


 I tend to just go on bean origin with a little bit of a nod towards density. 
I find lower altitude beans, such a Brazilian good around 17-18g

Higher altitude, Guatemalan SHB around 19. 
When you have a better more consistent grinder it's much easier to go finer and lower dose get a decent pull.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

TomHughes said:


> I tend to just go on bean origin with a little bit of a nod towards density.
> I find lower altitude beans, such a Brazilian good around 17-18g
> 
> Higher altitude, Guatemalan SHB around 19.
> When you have a better more consistent grinder it's much easier to go finer and lower dose get a decent pull.


 Any change of temperature on the Pro?

Im looking forward to the new grinder immensely, hoping to get more out of these decafs and more fruity type coffees because at the minute I'm struggling to enjoy anything other than more traditional Italian style in my Americanos. Others are just bland so far.


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> Any change of temperature on the Pro?
> 
> Im looking forward to the new grinder immensely, hoping to get more out of these decafs and more fruity type coffees because at the minute I'm struggling to enjoy anything other than more traditional Italian style in my Americanos. Others are just bland so far.


 Yes, I drop temp for low altitude and darker roasts and increase for lighter and high altitude.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

TomHughes said:


> Yes, I drop temp for low altitude and darker roasts and increase for lighter and high altitude.


 Ok I will try that thanks.

How long do you typically preinfuse for on your shots?

When using your better quality grinder does it provide consistent flow all the way through?


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> Ok I will try that thanks.
> 
> How long do you typically preinfuse for on your shots?
> 
> When using your better quality grinder does it provide consistent flow all the way through?


 10 seconds. 
yes. Generally. The sage grinder produces lots of fines and boulders so as the pull continues channeling opens up causing irregularity. 
The Niche will likely be a vast improvement on this


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

TomHughes said:


> 10 seconds.
> yes. Generally. The sage grinder produces lots of fines and boulders so as the pull continues channeling opens up causing irregularity.
> The Niche will likely be a vast improvement on this


 Not having much luck with this square mile decaf but the increase in beans in the hopper does seemed to have helped and looking at the puck now I don't see any signs of channeling, however the extraction does speed up. Flavour wise as an Americano it's bland.


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> Not having much luck with this square mile decaf but the increase in beans in the hopper does seemed to have helped and looking at the puck now I don't see any signs of channeling, however the extraction does speed up. Flavour wise as an Americano it's bland.


 What dose?


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

TomHughes said:


> What dose?


 19g in 38-40 out. Grinder upper burr back to 6 and grinder set to 4.


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> 19g in 38-40 out. Grinder upper burr back to 6 and grinder set to 4.


 Not that it's the same bean, but on my decaf I dose 20g in, pull 50g out over45-50 seconds.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

TomHughes said:


> Not that it's the same bean, but on my decaf I dose 20g in, pull 50g out over45-50 seconds.


 Will give it a go thanks, wish I knew why the temp changes were on the pro, rather than just hotter.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

@TomHughes Do you have any tips for channeling? I have tried both using my distribution tool and not but I still get channeling.

Im using a dark roast with a dose of 17.5g as that fills the basket without having waste. I use a WDT tool in the basket as there are plenty of clumps, then distribute and tap down the grounds. Then tamp with the push but normally there is one spot on the puck that has the little hole where you can see it has channeled. Is it me or the grinder that is the issue?

This is an older picture but it tends to look like this

View attachment 39851


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> @TomHughes Do you have any tips for channeling? I have tried both using my distribution tool and not but I still get channeling.
> 
> Im using a dark roast with a dose of 17.5g as that fills the basket without having waste. I use a WDT tool in the basket as there are plenty of clumps, then distribute and tap down the grounds. Then tamp with the push but normally there is one spot on the puck that has the little hole where you can see it has channeled. Is it me or the grinder that is the issue?
> 
> This is an older picture but it tends to look like this
> 
> View attachment 39851


 Are you grinding into the PF or a separate pot and transferring it?


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

It goes into this jar then into the portafilter


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> It goes into this jar then into the portafilter
> 
> View attachment 40095


 Hmmm, shouldn't be too much of an issue there then, is channelling always the same place? Are you cleaning the shower screen daily and back flushing weekly/2 weekly?

The only real way to diagnose problematic channelling is with a naked PF and taste. Holes in the puck happen, maybe due to technique, or water flow. Or grind distribution. 
I don't use a distribution tool as I like to get the bed nice and flat with my fingers. 
I have a naked PF and can't remember when I last saw channeling.


----------



## cuprajake

I clean the screen weekly.

But ive not back flushed yet,. I have cleaned under the screen.

Is back flushing worth while? Esp so often? I use bottle water and my machine is 3 weeks or so old


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

TomHughes said:


> Hmmm, shouldn't be too much of an issue there then, is channelling always the same place? Are you cleaning the shower screen daily and back flushing weekly/2 weekly?
> 
> The only real way to diagnose problematic channelling is with a naked PF and taste. Holes in the puck happen, maybe due to technique, or water flow. Or grind distribution.
> I don't use a distribution tool as I like to get the bed nice and flat with my fingers.
> I have a naked PF and can't remember when I last saw channeling.


 I clean the shower screen with a wipe and run a single shot it before and after each extraction. Yesterday the flush indication came on so I put the single portafilter in with the blanking disc and cleaning tablet and it ran through the cycle.

I'm not sure if it is always in the same place, I think it probably is pretty close to the same place. I wonder if the puck is just getting a bit stuck there on the group head.

Im tapping the grounds after they go into the funnel and then using my finger to distribute then one final finger motion across the top then tamp. My tamp is level each time due to the push so I'm not sure what the issue is.


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> I clean the shower screen with a wipe and run a single shot it before and after each extraction. Yesterday the flush indication came on so I put the single portafilter in with the blanking disc and cleaning tablet and it ran through the cycle.
> 
> I'm not sure if it is always in the same place, I think it probably is pretty close to the same place. I wonder if the puck is just getting a bit stuck there on the group head.
> 
> Im tapping the grounds after they go into the funnel and then using my finger to distribute then one final finger motion across the top then tamp. My tamp is level each time due to the push so I'm not sure what the issue is.


 I wouldn't worry too much then, unless your espresso is tasting under-extracted.

Make sure you are removing the shower screen to clean behind it every few days, remove the screw and lever it out. 
Plenty of oils and coffee get stuck behind it after a few cups.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

TomHughes said:


> I wouldn't worry too much then, unless your espresso is tasting under-extracted.
> 
> Make sure you are removing the shower screen to clean behind it every few days, remove the screw and lever it out.
> Plenty of oils and coffee get stuck behind it after a few cups.


 I was thinking about doing this but then I got worried about threading the screw and haven't yet.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

Does anyone else who uses this machine feel like it's harder than it should be to distribute into a 54mm. When I see videos online of people using 58mm it always looks way easier not to make a mess. Finger distribution looks easier also.

Look at the clumping on this!


----------



## Apr1985

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> Does anyone else who uses this machine feel like it's harder than it should be to distribute into a 54mm. When I see videos online of people using 58mm it always looks way easier not to make a mess. Finger distribution looks easier also.
> 
> Look at the clumping on this!
> 
> View attachment 40101


 I use a funnel to grind into (spoon to hit the grind button), then swiz a toothpick round. Not perfect but I draw a workflow line at grinding into a cup, distributing, pouring into PF.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

Apr1985 said:


> I use a funnel to grind into (spoon to hit the grind button), then swiz a toothpick round. Not perfect but I draw a workflow line at grinding into a cup, distributing, pouring into PF.


 I don't think it's helping me at the moment that I am using Half Caff and when using these types of coffees or any decaf it seems to give this grinder a problem.

I just made a Americano that was tasty but it had one of the holes like the one pictured above at about 2 o'clock.

I seem to get faster extractions when I use a distribution tool and the push tamper. When I manually distribute with my finger and then use the push tamper I get a slower more controlled flow.

However I make a mess every time I do it manually, constantly wiping up grinds from the kitchen floor.

More practice required, also looking forward to receiving the new grinder.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

TomHughes said:


> I wouldn't worry too much then, unless your espresso is tasting under-extracted.
> 
> Make sure you are removing the shower screen to clean behind it every few days, remove the screw and lever it out.
> Plenty of oils and coffee get stuck behind it after a few cups.


 I thought I would take the shower screen off and take a look to see if the cleaning tablet had worked, I've had this machine about 2 months and it looked spotless when I took it off.


----------



## cuprajake

Mines brown after a weeks work, but im using rave fudge blend no lighter stuff, save that for the v60


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

Cuprajake said:


> Mines brown after a weeks work, but im using rave fudge blend no lighter stuff, save that for the v60


 I would imagine mine was before the cleaning tablet as I have mostly been using darker roasts.

Need to buy one of those big boxes of tablets and then I can flush the machine once a week if it's going to do a decent job.


----------



## cuprajake

Yeah

I got a gaggia, bought all the cleaning tabs etc then sold it a week later and bought the sage 😁😂

Did my first back flush today

Hopefully i did it correctly as i couldn't find much info on it.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

Cuprajake said:


> Yeah
> 
> I got a gaggia, bought all the cleaning tabs etc then sold it a week later and bought the sage 😁😂
> 
> Did my first back flush today
> 
> Hopefully i did it correctly as i couldn't find much info on it.


 I used the single portafilter basket with the tablet in and it worked a treat on the Barista Pro.


----------



## cuprajake

Yeah, from the limited info i found

Single basket, rubber disc and a tablet.

Empty drip tray then i cycled until the tab had dissolved.

Noticeably mine doesn't have a hole. From reading some rubber discs had holes. So im unsure if they changed the design.

I may pin prick a hole as im away this valve jas no opv so there was pressure when i undid the pf, i did cycle the steam to try and purge before removal

Hoping always been run on bottle water wont be a major issue.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

Cuprajake said:


> Yeah, from the limited info i found
> 
> Single basket, rubber disc and a tablet.
> 
> Empty drip tray then i cycled until the tab had dissolved.
> 
> Noticeably mine doesn't have a hole. From reading some rubber discs had holes. So im unsure if they changed the design.
> 
> I may pin prick a hole as im away this valve jas no opv so there was pressure when i undid the pf, i did cycle the steam to try and purge before removal
> 
> Hoping always been run on bottle water wont be a major issue.


 There is no hole on mine on the pro.


----------



## cuprajake

Umm

Mines a duo temp pro

Im sure @MWJB has a hole in his?


----------



## MWJB

Cuprajake said:


> Umm
> 
> Mines a duo temp pro
> 
> Im sure @MWJB has a hole in his?


 Indeed, I do.


----------



## cuprajake

So some people are lucky they have a hole, others not so much 😂


----------



## Joe shorrock

Cuprajake said:


> So some people are lucky they have a hole, others not so much 😂


 They changed the design, on older models they had hole and black flushed through portofilter, now they don't have a hole and it back flushes into the tray instead, totally normal. I thought that when I bought my BE


----------



## cuprajake

I did have the tray lid off to see if anything came into the tray. Which it did

Who would of thought a cup of coffee could be so technical


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

I've been messing around today with various toys for the Barista Pro.

When I use a distribution tool and my push tamper I get an extraction 3 seconds faster than when I just use my finger to distribute and the push tamper.

I have the push set to 7.2mm which seems to be the exact setting of the razor dosing tool. I wonder though if you were trying to be totally accurate, if it would be better to use the distribution tool and then tamp with a normal tamper until the puck is compressed and then set the push to that level. You would have to do this for every coffee however and I'm not sure how much benefit it would bring.

Weird


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

I never know what to dose the Barista Pro, today I have a new decaf I've been resting and at 18g I had to go to 2 on the grinder to get a decent extraction time, 18g was just about level with the basket could of maybe done with 19g. So to save coffee wastage I went to 20g and that after a few attempts put the grinder up to 7 rather than 2 for a 28 second extraction.

20g was above the basket, I had to push down and distribute the coffee with the distribution tool and then tamp but the extraction looked better and there was no channeling.

When people on here are distributing are you pushing the grind down as you even it out so it fits or just trying to get a decent level? It seems the Pro has more power to push through grinds so likes a higher number compared to the Express.


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> I never know what to dose the Barista Pro, today I have a new decaf I've been resting and at 18g I had to go to 2 on the grinder to get a decent extraction time, 18g was just about level with the basket could of maybe done with 19g. So to save coffee wastage I went to 20g and that after a few attempts put the grinder up to 7 rather than 2 for a 28 second extraction.
> 
> 20g was above the basket, I had to push down and distribute the coffee with the distribution tool and then tamp but the extraction looked better and there was no channeling.
> 
> When people on here are distributing are you pushing the grind down as you even it out so it fits or just trying to get a decent level? It seems the Pro has more power to push through grinds so likes a higher number compared to the Express.


 I suspect the pro generates significant pressure, I used to be able to choke my DTP but I have never choked my pro. 
I also suspect this may be why it can easily produce channelling in an uneven grind or under-filled basket and might be why they seem to recommend 19-22g. 
I find basket volume to be a decent enough guide, the razor cuts a little deep though. I have tested with coins and provided you aren't jamming all the way to the right you can get a fair bit in the basket without disturbing it. 
The tamper silver line, meant to correspond to the top of the basket is about 5mm. shallower than the razor. 
Generally if I hit this I get no channelling, as the depth of the puck and the slightly tapered basket helps this.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

TomHughes said:


> I suspect the pro generates significant pressure, I used to be able to choke my DTP but I have never choked my pro.
> I also suspect this may be why it can easily produce channelling in an uneven grind or under-filled basket and might be why they seem to recommend 19-22g.
> I find basket volume to be a decent enough guide, the razor cuts a little deep though. I have tested with coins and provided you aren't jamming all the way to the right you can get a fair bit in the basket without disturbing it.
> The tamper silver line, meant to correspond to the top of the basket is about 5mm. shallower than the razor.
> Generally if I hit this I get no channelling, as the depth of the puck and the slightly tapered basket helps this.


 It's all good fun playing about with these, just sometimes I think I'm nailing it and then boom, back to having zero clue again.

Would love to see a picture of someone's idea of how a dose should look in the basket. Volume wise before tamping. I would probably have to go a bit finer on the grinder to use 19g rather than 20g but it would be easier to fit it in.

I tend to go all the way to the right as it lifts the portafilter closer to the group head I think from looking at it. Someone recommended doing that to me, I think if you were to measure the distance after tamping when you can no longer see the line on the tamper it's supposed to be the depth of the razor maybe?


----------



## cuprajake

I have a dtp and im dowing 17g

I find 17g a happy medium as if my beans vary theres still room in the basket

Must admit most of my stuff is med roast or more, as all my espresso goes in milk.

If i find the pull a bit to quick i will go a rad finer, like wise coarser if too slow. I try not to change dose if poss.


----------



## facboy

I probably get my best results (channeling- and taste-wise) if I distribute and don't tamp, provided I get the grind right. I already posted it elsewhere, but I use the Motta 53mm on my Bambino Plus, 18g, I use the Motta's own weight and gently rotate to distribute which brings the Motta handle to about 1mm above the basket rim, then I press down gently while continuing to rotate until there is no gap at the rim. I generally rotate slowly initially, once it is down I rotate a bit faster which seems to finish the puck better.

I think that perhaps tamping afterwards can crack the puck, leading to channelling. That would loosely chime with my limited experience.


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## Caffeinated_fiend

I went two notches on the grinder lower to 5 and lowered the dose to 19g and the shot ran to the right time but there was the channeling again. Will try 19.5 tomorrow and see where that gets me.

I think I am having more trouble with this at the moment as I think in general decafs are harder to dial in for sure.


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> I went two notches on the grinder lower to 5 and lowered the dose to 19g and the shot ran to the right time but there was the channeling again. Will try 19.5 tomorrow and see where that gets me.
> 
> I think I am having more trouble with this at the moment as I think in general decafs are harder to dial in for sure.


 I think. decafs are tougher. 
From roasting them myself they are a very different looking bean, as they have been water treated. 
I have found them very hard to extract, particularly if they are lighter roasted, resorting to super fine grinds and higher dosing.

When you say channeling what do you mean? Are you seeing it with a naked PF?

Also, I wouldn't recommend turning the handle all the way to the right, this isn't required and is bad advice, where did it come from? At higher doses this will disturb the puck.

I just measured the silver line on the tamp compared to the razor and it's shallower, I definitely wouldn't use the razor.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

TomHughes said:


> I think. decafs are tougher.
> From roasting them myself they are a very different looking bean, as they have been water treated.
> I have found them very hard to extract, particularly if they are lighter roasted, resorting to super fine grinds and higher dosing.
> 
> When you say channeling what do you mean? Are you seeing it with a naked PF?
> 
> Also, I wouldn't recommend turning the handle all the way to the right, this isn't required and is bad advice, where did it come from? At higher doses this will disturb the puck.
> 
> I just measured the silver line on the tamp compared to the razor and it's shallower, I definitely wouldn't use the razor.


 I don't remember where I got that advice I think I read it on here as I used to just put it to the middle.

I don't have a naked portafilter but when I remove the puck it pretty much always has the little hole like in one of the pictures I posted above.

I will set my push to 5 mm and give it a go.

The problem with the Pro and the grinder with decaf is it seems really fine, the grounds are not fluffy like you see with YouTube videos where they are using a 58mm, give it a few taps and it's level.

I haven't found the best workflow yet, what do you suggest? Distribute the grounds into the portafilter tap them level and then distribute with a finger until level then tamp?


----------



## cuprajake

From speaking to people on the forum ive gont from rather complex to simple

I hand grind 17.5g of beans, this usually gives me 17.2g

I then stir the grind in the catch cup with cocktail stick, and decant to the pf with my homemade plastic funnel.

Then a few taps left right and down and tamp

No spinny thing now.

Before with adding more wdt and spinny thing i was seeing a few holes start
View attachment 40039


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> I don't remember where I got that advice I think I read it on here as I used to just put it to the middle.
> 
> *I don't have a naked portafilter but when I remove the puck it pretty much always has the little hole like in one of the pictures I posted above. *
> 
> I will set my push to 5 mm and give it a go.
> 
> The problem with the Pro and the grinder with decaf is it seems really fine, the grounds are not fluffy like you see with YouTube videos where they are using a 58mm, give it a few taps and it's level.
> 
> I haven't found the best workflow yet, what do you suggest? Distribute the grounds into the portafilter tap them level and then distribute with a finger until level then tamp?


 I had that earlier, but it was the most picture perfect cone in the naked PF with zero obviously channeling


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

TomHughes said:


> I had that earlier, but it was the most picture perfect cone in the naked PF with zero obviously channeling


 Good to know maybe nothing to worry about then 😀🤘

From looking online at plenty of posts I'm going to just tap and distribute the grinds, will most likely be easier with none decaf coffees. When I use the dosing funnel I have when I take it off it leaves little mounts that are then hard to get evenly within the basket by tapping as with 19g of coffee the puck is quite full.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

@TomHughes I gave the 5mm a go on the push tamper and as you can see from the results it's not enough for the silver line to be in the correct place. Setting it to 7mm like the razor puts it to what looks like exactly right.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Why does the silver line need to be in a certain place again ?


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

Mrboots2u said:


> Why does the silver line need to be in a certain place again ?


 The silver line is just a guide from sage to show when tamped the clearance for the puck and the shower screen. To make it easier for new users.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

Cuprajake said:


> From speaking to people on the forum ive gont from rather complex to simple
> 
> I hand grind 17.5g of beans, this usually gives me 17.2g
> 
> I then stir the grind in the catch cup with cocktail stick, and decant to the pf with my homemade plastic funnel.
> 
> Then a few taps left right and down and tamp
> 
> No spinny thing now.
> 
> Before with adding more wdt and spinny thing i was seeing a few holes start


 Thank you for this @Cuprajake it has improved my distribution, a few taps on different sides plus the tap to knock the air out have made my grounds fill the basket way better when I take of the dosing funnel. Still had the usual hole round the edge so I might try 20g tomorrow to see if it all fits in although I am less bothered about it now.


----------



## cuprajake

One thing id like is a better fitting motta tamper the sage pf must be 53.457667mm 😂 while the motta tamper is 53.23344mm so tiny bit of wiggle room so sometimes i see grinds up the basket walls.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

Cuprajake said:


> One thing id like is a better fitting motta tamper the sage pf must be 53.457667mm 😂 while the motta tamper is 53.23344mm so tiny bit of wiggle room so sometimes i see grinds up the basket walls.


 Not sure what the push is but I don't have that issue with it.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

@TomHughes Just wondered as I think you said you had a naked portafilter, if you does lower than 19g do you get any spritzers. I haven't noticed them at 19g or even 18.5 but 18g and I get them. Thinking a pressure issue, wouldn't be a problem on the normal portafilter of course.

Also still battling with the elusive Americano, when I started my coffee journey I was naive and thought that once I got the double shot down, making an Americano would be a breeze. That hasn't been the case for me so far for the most part, it all depends on the strength of the initial espresso to how much it can then be diluted.

It's weird as I've never had a watery Americano from say Starbucks, Costa or anywhere. I've had bad coffees but never watery, what puzzles me is that Starbucks, until you get really big basically charge you for more water in a double shot. Is it just that they have really strong coffees as they have to work in every method and so they only change them out depending on season for example.

If I go to 250-300ml on most Americanos they taste watery with a 18-19g dose, around 230ml seems to be the sweet spot for the most part from what I have been making and these are darker roasts. For the most part these coffees are at a 2:1 ratio extracted up to around 30 seconds, I'm not sure if doing a longer more traditional 60ml double shot would make much of any difference but I should give it a try I suppose.

How do they make doubles go so long?


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> @TomHughes Just wondered as I think you said you had a naked portafilter, if you does lower than 19g do you get any spritzers. I haven't noticed them at 19g or even 18.5 but 18g and I get them. Thinking a pressure issue, wouldn't be a problem on the normal portafilter of course.
> 
> Also still battling with the elusive Americano, when I started my coffee journey I was naive and thought that once I got the double shot down, making an Americano would be a breeze. That hasn't been the case for me so far for the most part, it all depends on the strength of the initial espresso to how much it can then be diluted.
> 
> It's weird as I've never had a watery Americano from say Starbucks, Costa or anywhere. I've had bad coffees but never watery, what puzzles me is that Starbucks, until you get really big basically charge you for more water in a double shot. Is it just that they have really strong coffees as they have to work in every method and so they only change them out depending on season for example.
> 
> If I go to 250-300ml on most Americanos they taste watery with a 18-19g dose, around 230ml seems to be the sweet spot for the most part from what I have been making and these are darker roasts. For the most part these coffees are at a 2:1 ratio extracted up to around 30 seconds, I'm not sure if doing a longer more traditional 60ml double shot would make much of any difference but I should give it a try I suppose.
> 
> How do they make doubles go so long?


 No I don't, I go down to 16.5 no issues as I don't use the sage grinder. If I tried on the inbuilt grinder it would be bean dependent. Medium dark ok to 18, anything denser/lighter no chance.

Americano wise I guess it depends on what bean and ratio. I generally go 1:2.5 with my nothing A with cream and that suits me. Normally a medium to dark roast with 18 in and 45 out


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

TomHughes said:


> No I don't, I go down to 16.5 no issues as I don't use the sage grinder. If I tried on the inbuilt grinder it would be bean dependent. Medium dark ok to 18, anything denser/lighter no chance.
> 
> Americano wise I guess it depends on what bean and ratio. I generally go 1:2.5 with my nothing A with cream and that suits me. Normally a medium to dark roast with 18 in and 45 out


 I have a Niche Zero now, it came today in fact. Got it dialled in pretty fast with the coffee I am using and it's night and day compared to the sage grinder, fluffiest grounds I've ever seen.

Will give a longer ratio a try and see what happens


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## Caffeinated_fiend

Hey all, just wondered what most people are using for pre infusion. I had been using 5 seconds but noticed when I got the Niche grinder that I was seeing drops of coffee at around 5 seconds where as before it wouldn't be until around 7-8 seconds.

Should I be trying to eliminate drops before pre-infusion has finished. I tried grinding finer and got it to around 7-8 seconds of pre-infusion before drops but then it was much slower and the shot took around 38 seconds.

Should I ignore the shot timer and just experiment?


----------



## Joe shorrock

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> Hey all, just wondered what most people are using for pre infusion. I had been using 5 seconds but noticed when I got the Niche grinder that I was seeing drops of coffee at around 5 seconds where as before it wouldn't be until around 7-8 seconds.
> 
> Should I be trying to eliminate drops before pre-infusion has finished. I tried grinding finer and got it to around 7-8 seconds of pre-infusion before drops but then it was much slower and the shot took around 38 seconds.
> 
> Should I ignore the shot timer and just experiment?


 My sage express default is 7-8 seconds pre infusion, since been using the niche is now around 8-9 seconds , which to me is better, plus when brewing a shot with the niche the pour is very consistent, compared to the built in grinder which sped up towards the end


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend

Joe shorrock said:


> My sage express default is 7-8 seconds pre infusion, since been using the niche is now around 8-9 seconds , which to me is better, plus when brewing a shot with the niche the pour is very consistent, compared to the built in grinder which sped up towards the end


 Are you seeing any drops before the pump fully kicks in? I have noticed the niche is more stable like you say.


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> Are you seeing any drops before the pump fully kicks in? I have noticed the niche is more stable like you say.


 Depends on the machine. 
I suspect the pre-infusion pressure on the Pro is higher than it's supposed to be as I always find I get first drops at 7-8 seconds during a 10sec pre-infusion and the shot runs fine.


----------



## Joe shorrock

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> Are you seeing any drops before the pump fully kicks in? I have noticed the niche is more stable like you say.


 Yeah fair few drops before kicks in fully, I can set the pre infusion myself, may look into that tbh, longer one for lighter beans


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## Caffeinated_fiend

My prep changed since getting the niche and I think it affected my puck prep so I have changed back to how I was doing it pre niche and I am now getting my previous results. I've been experimenting with a 1:3 ratio for Americano, started with a 50ml shot in about 34 seconds then diluted into a 150ml drink, the issue I was having though is that I am drinking decaf so it tends to blonde faster than caffeinated so I might just go back to my normal 1:2 ratio for the espresso but still dilute it into 150 to get rid of some of the bitterness I had at higher ratios.


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## Caffeinated_fiend

TomHughes said:


> Depends on the machine.
> I suspect the pre-infusion pressure on the Pro is higher than it's supposed to be as I always find I get first drops at 7-8 seconds during a 10sec pre-infusion and the shot runs fine.


 @TomHughes Are you grinding finer and then using the 10 second pre-infusion to get a more even extraction? Would it choke without?


----------



## TomHughes

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> @TomHughes Are you grinding finer and then using the 10 second pre-infusion to get a more even extraction? Would it choke without?


 I grind relatively fine anyway as I feel the sage hits best taste and extraction for me with a shot over 45-50 seconds. 
I just prefer the taste from a longer pre-infusion


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## Caffeinated_fiend

I have a bean at the moment that starts slow at about 1g of coffee output a second and then speeds up to 2g a second, I'm pulling this shot to a 1:3 ratio so I'm looking for 54g output in around 30 seconds. This is with my usual 5 seconds of pre infusion, if I up this preinfusion to say 7-8-9-10 seconds is it likely to then stabilise the output from the start to say 2g a second. Would this be an example of when a longer preinfusion would be beneficial.


----------



## Pseudonym

TomHughes said:


> In all honestly the sage is a very capable machine, which can make a truly excellent cup of coffee. A far superior one to a gaggia classic for example.
> But it has three major flaws in my mind
> 
> 1. It's marketed as a 'bean to cup' or a machine that a beginner can use straight from the off which I don't think is the case, like anything it has a learning curve. This is why we see so many posts on here of 'I bought a sage and I can't get a decent coffee from it'.
> 
> 2. The grinder is very capable, but the timing feature doesn't fit with the way it works (slowing and speeding up), and beginners are led to believe that timing is all you need, so they don't weigh. I've had a 15 second grind from 2 different beans on the same setting give 15g and 18g, thats huge!
> 
> 3. It doesn't have the flexibility to play around with variables at the other end.
> I don't think the temp control actually controls the temp, I *think* it alters the flow through the coil, to alter the temp. This is NOT the same!
> I definitely notice a slower pull at higher temps.
> It struggles with the single because of the way it uses resistance and pump pressure, the same goes with putting a lower amount in the basket. Mine honestly struggles at anything less than 18g, even if the grind is super fine.
> 
> That being said if you learn how to use it I think it can make an awesome cup of coffee for the money.


 I think you've hit the nail on the head Tom. the BP is a great machine but you really need to think about temp, pressure and extraction to get it really bob on...

interesting point you make about cycle 4. I'll need to play about with this.

Sage should really caveat their product line with the preamble that it will take a little learning to get a great cup of espresso or alike from the machine but once you are there, the coffee can be fantastic.

I've only ever dosed for a single extraction in the hopper and have found that I need to grind longer to yield the correct dose. Essentially making the grinder run half a sec longer than I need to get the 19g dose I want. that way I'm getting as close to 19g in / out as possible with zero retained. Ok - there will always be some but its typically less than 0.3g (I know I'm trading some left in the chute for fresh grinds so sacrifice half a dose on a new day lets say. the most important part is the grinder needs to run all the dose through it before stopping.

Cheers

Rob


----------



## Turner19901

Hi guys,

Just on the topic of Barista pro/express, I have recently bought an MBK Aerspeed. I'm very happy with it for pour over etc but I will be getting one of the two above mentioned machines pretty soon.

Will the aerspeed grind quality be any improvement on the embedded sage grinders? I already grind around 18g twice a day on the aerspeed to time wise is no bother to me.

Thanks

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 24774

Turner19901 said:


> Will the aerspeed grind quality be any improvement on the embedded sage grinders?


 The aerspeed doesn't do espresso does it? I thought that was the one for pour over and the aergrind was for espresso?

EDIT: Just thought, this would probably be better if you start a topic in the Sage forum. Keep this pinned thread clear. Post there and we can pick this up.


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## HVL87

Just seen the barista express on Amazon for £400 for prime day, in case anyone is interested. Black sesame colour.


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## strebor

Was reading various threads last night about pre-warming the group head and portafilter on the Sage Barista Express and also mineral water.

There was thread where I think @CocoLoco said they push four shots worth of water through the PF before pulling a shot.

It occurred to me that if using bottled water, this seems like an awfully expensive way to operate the machine. Am I missing something or is this widespread practice for BE usage?


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## 24774

strebor said:


> There was thread where I think @CocoLoco said they push four shots worth of water through the PF before pulling a shot.


 Yes you are correct on both accounts, that is what I do, with Waitrose Lockhills and yes for espresso it would get expensive. However I only drink americano so I use that hot water.

As I understand it, it is recommended as it makes a difference to the water temperature/stability which of course effects the shot quality. I was having a problem at the start and this practice was recommended to me on here and it was the single best piece of advice I received , the shot difference was night and day. 3/4 shots brings it to the 'right' temp at least for me.

I've subsequently recommended it to others and they too have seen an improvement, however you are absolutely correct, if you are an espresso drinker it is a waste of water. You can change the water temp on the machine manually, in 2 degree increments and see how that plays out. I would check what temp your water is, decide what you want it to be at and go from there:


----------



## strebor

@CocoLoco

Yeah, I already run water through the group head to warm it up, although admittedly only one or two times. And I've dialled up the temperature of the water on the BE through the program mode.

My query was more related to using loads of mineral water. I tend to drink Americano or Flat White, using tap water. But I've been reading up on using mineral water to improve the taste and reduce scale build-up. Just occurred to me that you're going to push through several 100ml of water before you even get to pulling the shot, which is far from ideal.

Thanks for info.


----------



## 24774

@strebor Not sure where you live but if you're using tap water through the machine I'd check out the hardness. I live in London so I don't think using tap water in a BE is even viable, the machine would grind to a halt pretty quickly.

What some do (and please ignore me if this is what you are doing already), is use mineral water through the machine and use tap water in kettle for topping up for americano. Doesn't address the BE water temp issue, but it's a way not to have to deal with the machine scaling up in a hard water area.


----------



## strebor

I live in London - I mainly use tap, but I'm aware it's far from ideal. I'm on my second refurb BE. My first lasted 4+ years, but I didn't really know what I was doing tbh so wasn't particularly good at taking care of it. Had my second for 18 months.

I've use mineral on occasion, but the prospect of shifting entirely to mineral is slightly horrifying from a cost point of view. It's something I'm considering, but I probably use one third to half a BE tank to make one Americano with the amount of group head flushing that's required.


----------



## strebor

One thought... assuming the group head is clean, what about putting the purge mineral water back into the tank?

It sounds a pretty horrifying prospect, but if it's just been heated up and nothing else what's wrong with the water... :classic_unsure:


----------



## tomsweddy

CocoLoco said:


> @strebor Not sure where you live but if you're using tap water through the machine I'd check out the hardness. I live in London so I don't think using tap water in a BE is even viable, the machine would grind to a halt pretty quickly.
> 
> What some do (and please ignore me if this is what you are doing already), is use mineral water through the machine and use tap water in kettle for topping up for americano. Doesn't address the BE water temp issue, but it's a way not to have to deal with the machine scaling up in a hard water area.





CocoLoco said:


> @strebor Not sure where you live but if you're using tap water through the machine I'd check out the hardness. I live in London so I don't think using tap water in a BE is even viable, the machine would grind to a halt pretty quickly.
> 
> What some do (and please ignore me if this is what you are doing already), is use mineral water through the machine and use tap water in kettle for topping up for americano. Doesn't address the BE water temp issue, but it's a way not to have to deal with the machine scaling up in a hard water area.


 Isnt the Barista Pro machine designed to work with hard water areas by having the descale and flush programs? I live in London and am using its finest (but hard) tap water. Had my Barista Pro for 6 months now, no issues so far, but is this a death sentence?


----------



## 24774

tomsweddy said:


> Isnt the Barista Pro machine designed to work with hard water areas by having the descale and flush programs?


 The BE has those too, they're just to make it easy on the user, not fight the hard water London has to offer. Better to prevent than to fix. The machines don't like hard water is the rule I think.

I've read you don't want to descale too much as the chemicals aren't great for the machine. Bottled water will greatly extend the life of the machine in London.


----------



## tomsweddy

CocoLoco said:


> The BE has those too, they're just to make it easy on the user, not fight the hard water London has to offer. Better to prevent than to fix. The machines don't like hard water is the rule I think.
> 
> I've read you don't want to descale too much as the chemicals aren't great for the machine. Bottled water will greatly extend the life of the machine in London.


 Thanks for the advice, I think you're right. Bottled water is bad for plastic. What about using a BRITA filter, is there any particular product of theirs you would recommend for filtering water suitably? Cheers!


----------



## tomsweddy

Question to all... How many people us the Pro's standard brew settings i.e. Volumetric ? I am using manual mode currently with scales to witness how the coffee is coming out, but I kinda want to make it more automated. Is the volumetric feature really quite helpful for this, in terms of keeping the espresso consistent once dialled in? (I say consistent as the beans naturally age slightly or the tamp might be slightly different pressure or the dose might be 0.2g or so out each time). Interested to hear people's opinion on the Volumetric feature. Cheers!


----------



## ImthatGuy

tomsweddy said:


> Question to all... How many people us the Pro's standard brew settings i.e. Volumetric ? I am using manual mode currently with scales to witness how the coffee is coming out, but I kinda want to make it more automated. Is the volumetric feature really quite helpful for this, in terms of keeping the espresso consistent once dialled in? (I say consistent as the beans naturally age slightly or the tamp might be slightly different pressure or the dose might be 0.2g or so out each time). Interested to hear people's opinion on the Volumetric feature. Cheers!


 I dial in the beans manually, with scales. Once I'm happy with the extract, I let the machine do its thing. It seems very consistent to me. I go my taste and texture - if that remains consistent, I'm happy to leave well alone.

I take your point about minor variations in tamp and dose and age, but my criterion is flavour. Other people may be more sensitive than me - it's a very personal thing - but it's important to me to be able to trust the machine.


----------



## N0rmanski

ImthatGuy said:


> I dial in the beans manually, with scales. Once I'm happy with the extract, I let the machine do its thing. It seems very consistent to me. I go my taste and texture - if that remains consistent, I'm happy to leave well alone.
> 
> I take your point about minor variations in tamp and dose and age, but my criterion is flavour. Other people may be more sensitive than me - it's a very personal thing - but it's important to me to be able to trust the machine.


 Likewise, I use the programme function to set the volume every time I change beans. I use scales to weigh the beans every time. I use the scales to measure the first shot, then rely on the volumetric for the rest of the shots from that bag. It seems fairly consistent as long as I don't change tamping and distribution style.

I actually have 2 beans on the go at once (regular and decaf), I use the 1 cup button for the regular beans and the 2 cup for decaf.


----------



## 24774

tomsweddy said:


> Thanks for the advice, I think you're right. Bottled water is bad for plastic. What about using a BRITA filter, is there any particular product of theirs you would recommend for filtering water suitably? Cheers!


 I agree, it's not good. Personally I offset my carbon and plastic usage but that does not make it right, we should use as little as possible, even if you recycle the bottles (as I do too).

I was told here that Brita and the like are not very effective for hardness, there's also non-recyclable heavy plastic associated with the filters you need to change every month. There's also the taste issue, that's personal choice (if you can even tell the difference). As such I don't have a Brita recommendation I'm afraid. Maybe use the search? I'd imagine it's a discussed topic.


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## TomHughes

tomsweddy said:


> Thanks for the advice, I think you're right. Bottled water is bad for plastic. What about using a BRITA filter, is there any particular product of theirs you would recommend for filtering water suitably? Cheers!


 The other issue with plastic bottles is the plastic leeching into the water, currently we don't know the full impact of this, but a friend of mine who is a consultant endocrinologist is very concerned about it.

One option is a reverse osmosis filter, just don't get it from Osmio otherwise they will try to sell you some Covid cures and snake oil.

Brita filter depends on your TDS, if it's say 150 and you want 100 then it should be ok. If it's 300 they won't do enough to prevent scaling.


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## tomsweddy

Hi Tom! Thanks for message. I live in Kingston, London and my postcode shows *(CaCO3):* 257 ppm. I couldnt see TDS anywhere on the report - where can i find it?

I'm reading a lot about hardness in London water and potential damage to my machine long term. However, from reading other threads, no one seems to arrive at the same conclusion that the BRITA filters actually help remove hardness. I guess you could say "its better than nothing i.e. tap water", but hard to tell if its worth spending the money/hassle in monthly filters etc if its not going to have a significant impact.

Is my only real option high quality bottled water e.g, Volvic £££ if you want to be sure? then its the plastic debate.

Cheers bud!blockquote widgetblockquote widget


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## tomsweddy

Also - just a further thought. What is the filter in the back of the water tank meant to be doing if not reducing hardness and improving taste? Feels like a lot of potentials filters (i.e. A Brita filter, + filter in the Sage machine). Money too...


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## 24774

TomHughes said:


> The other issue with plastic bottles is the plastic leeching into the water, currently we don't know the full impact of this, but a friend of mine who is a consultant endocrinologist is very concerned about it.


 Thanks. I've just read 4 articles about it, that's definitely on my radar now.


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## Auro

so even if I turn it on and leave for about 30 min it's better to flush it once or twice to make sure that every part is a little warmer?
and any tips on how to deal with a plastic part inside a portafilter? a lot of people remove it, is there any cons and pros for doing it?


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## N0rmanski

Auro said:


> so even if I turn it on and leave for about 30 min it's better to flush it once or twice to make sure that every part is a little warmer?
> and any tips on how to deal with a plastic part inside a portafilter? a lot of people remove it, is there any cons and pros for doing it?


 The plastic part seems to be for the pressurised baskets. I removed mine and have had no problems, plus it makes it easier to clean.


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## shimceltic

Does the pre infusuin do anything? I've had the machine since it came out and after endless bad espresso started doing it manually, I've done this for years now and generally an acceptable coffee but feel like I may have missed out by being impatient and just doing a Manuel extraction.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk


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## Coffeenoobster

N0rmanski said:


> The plastic part seems to be for the pressurised baskets. I removed mine and have had no problems, plus it makes it easier to clean.


 Apparently the plastic part directs the coffee to the centre, so it depends on personal preference as some people remove it as coffee gets caught in it.


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## ajohn

CocoLoco said:


> The BE has those too, they're just to make it easy on the user, not fight the hard water London has to offer. Better to prevent than to fix. The machines don't like hard water is the rule I think.


 You might get away with London water if you descale very regularly. The more expensive filter they now use should help providing it's replaced when needed. Any volumes Sage mention can only be a guide as life will depend on how hard the water is. People could buy test strips and check what is coming out but when they started fitting these filters some simple sums showed that bottled water was a cheaper alternative based on Sage's stated capacity. It needs to be the right one. Best ask about that. Something their should be a sticky on really.

Go back to the earlier filter that had nothing like the same water capacity and Sage engineers were telling people to descale every month on ALL of their machines. It's a common problem they find. That is likely to depend on how much coffee the machine actually makes and how much steam as well. At least it's quick on thermothingy machines. The engineers use puly cafe by the way. I had a call from one when they fixed my BE after it was out of warrantee. A grinder problem so they replaced all of it. I had previously mentioned I that I thought it may have developed a problem.

Scale needs putting into perspective really. In some ways it's a problem with all machines so machines need to be descaled or sometimes extreme steps are needed to avoid it completely - self "hardened" de ionised water for instance. Mixing certain bottled water as well. Spanners are sometimes needed to descale some machines. Great care is needed on some on what to use. True of Sage too.

The biggest problem some one new to these machines faces really is the basics. Dose, time, amount that comes out and general preparation. The numbers are changed to give what some one sees as the nicest taste. Coffee religion suggests only certain numbers can be used. That's a bad start. What beans and what machine and also really what dose and what was used to grind the beans. What setting was on the grinder. That relates to dose. Everything inter reacts. People can read about all sorts of idea and adopt them without any idea of if they are helping or hindering or where their real problem is.


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## Martin68

Well put together.

I was thinking of upgrading my Current machine (gaggia classic) to a barista pro, but after reading this article and others feedback, I won't bother.

My gaggia has had the odd issue, which I've rectified myself (qualified electronics bod), parts are readily available and there's very little in it to go wrong.


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## Fiyo

strebor said:


> Was reading various threads last night about pre-warming the group head and portafilter on the Sage Barista Express and also mineral water.
> 
> There was thread where I think @CocoLoco said they push four shots worth of water through the PF before pulling a shot.
> 
> It occurred to me that if using bottled water, this seems like an awfully expensive way to operate the machine. Am I missing something or is this widespread practice for BE usage?


 Could you let me know which thread this was I have searched but can't find it I am interested in usining this idea on my bambino plus


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## 24774

ajohn said:


> You might get away with London water if you descale very regularly.


 I may be wrong but I thought descaling regularly isn't ideal? Even with Puly. It puts a 'stress' on the machine so you wan to do it once a year if you can get away with that. London water is so hard I don't think I'd risk it in coffee machine without a weekly descale.


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## TomHughes

CocoLoco said:


> I may be wrong but I thought descaling regularly isn't ideal? Even with Puly. It puts a 'stress' on the machine so you wan to do it once a year if you can get away with that. London water is so hard I don't think I'd risk it in coffee machine without a weekly descale.


 I agree, I wouldn't want to be exposing seals etc. to that acid on too regular basis.


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## ajohn

Last time I looked at a recent Sage manual it suggested switching to bottled water if tap water is above a certain level of hardness. Afraid I can say which one. B'ham tap water is very soft. A kettle can be used for many years without any need for descaling. No signs of it really. My Sage DB does still need descaling though. It's most noticeable on the steam boiler and takes a long time to be noticeable.

If people ask on here which bottled water there may be 2 replies. One involves mixing 2 to get a neutral PH and possibly other aspects. The ones wanted are the brands that minimise scale build up. Some might say avoid the need to descale completely but I would be rather careful about that. When comparative costs were compared with using the newer more expensive filter it looked like bottled was significantly cheaper. It's probably best to ask in one of the main sections rather than this one.

Descaling stressing the machine ? It's more the case that using the wrong one can wreck it. Will in some cases. The same applied to others.

Scale in real terms and the rate it builds up at is a problem on all machines really. A few are easy to descale. Lots aren't. Few might be a bit of an exaggeration but not that much of one. Commercial machines are usually fed via a filter. It's not a cheap option.


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## Danne

Thank you TomHughes as a complete beginner I am very pleased with your direction it's just so easy to follow Sages instructions but for many of your reasons it's not quite enough information so I have spent most of the day getting one stage at a time right. I now have more tasteful and hot coffee, a pleasure!!!!

Again thank you so much


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## CoffeePlease

TomHughes said:


> So, I think there are some very patient people on here who keep answering the same questions about the Sage on here.
> So I thought maybe it's worth putting together a few quick points to really help sort out all the people who bought a Sage BE and other models at Christmas, or during this lockdown and are struggling to use it...


Thank you for your advice!

Just yesterday, I used my new Sage Barista Express Impress with a Lavazza qualitá Rossa beans, I have been using the pre found coffee on the old (cheap) machine, which I had it for over 10 years.

I tried the bean coffe with the new Sage Impress and wasted allot of coffee trying to different grind settings which none of them produced any drinkable coffee using the single wall baskets. The coffee was bitter/sour and with no crema. With a grind setting of 4 (the default is 16), the coffee tasted sour, bitter and burned. So glad I saw your post!

After having reset the machine to its default, swapping the single wall basket to the double wall and using the same coffe, it produce a much better coffee with some crema, this is not perfect but it's drinkable.
The extraction takes around 30seconds and the pressure goes up to about 11 O'clock.
Next, I should try some freshly roasted coffee, soon.
Suggestions welcomed!


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## ajohn

One factor hasn't been mentioned. Any new grinder takes time grinding for the burrs to run in even Sage's. The Sage grinder has 2 other aspects as well. One is that a certain quantity of grinds need to be compacted in the grind chamber, The other is making grinder adjustments going coarser. Go too coarse and then fine to where you want to be. Both of these 2 facts relate to the cost of manufacturing the grinder. Large adjustment going finer are best avoided. One step at a time with the earlier adjustment count on the Barista Express, Reason - any grinds remaining on the burrs are being crushed.

The compacted grinds aren't really a problem as any carry over even if the beans are changed is rather small and may result in a slight taste change on the first shot using them compared with the next, I unfortunately used some strongly flavored beans, vanilla. That needed 3 shots of a different bean for the taint to disappear,

When I was using the thermocoil BE I used the hopper and ground straight into the portafilter. I drink a lot of 2nd crack monsooned malabar. The beans can be seen to be coated with oil. From the source I used then when they arrived, The oil meant that the grind time needed to be changed regularly as the burrs got used to them, Then I made minute changes to the timer knob to keep the dose within close limits. The machines volumetrics coped with the shot weight. 2 reasons for that. Consistency with prep and the tune resulting in little water going out of the over pressure valve. That doesn't always work out with all beans, I can't think of a single bean I have used that worked out with the pressure gauge reading range Sage suggest Always needed to be higher, In that range the volumetrics should always work as no water goes out of the OVP, Bear in mind this is a tricky bean that in espresso terms also needs fine grinding. To avoid changing the BE grinder setting for different bean I bought a Smart Grinder Pro. ;A used one that meant no need for things to build up etc. I found out about that when I cleaned it,

 All these "problems". Hang on a minute think about cost. You can always go in a different direction and spend even more and still have tyro problems and maybe even more. Scale can be a problem on all and descaling often isn't easy to do. This range of machines may show that sooner if not don't often enough, They may do anyway after years of use,  Most machines will at some point.

Brew temperature, It needs rather specialized equipment to measure it as it has to be done at brew water flow rates, In the early days with the BE I often made 3 drinks on the trot, One day I decided to taste them. The first one was what the hell has happened. 2nd and 3rd as expected. What I did was run a part shot through an empty pressurized basket. Flow rate correct for the PID to work well and easy with an extraction tool to replace it with the correct one and as using the hopper on the grinder not a long delay before the actual shot was pulled. No taste change then and great for if I made a drink just for me, Some found an alternative - run a bit of steam before pulling the shot. The duration of that is something that can be varied, Not a method I tried, I'd guess wet steam is enough.

LOL Niche. I still drink the same bean a lot. If I put another type of bean it cleans the oil of the burrs, Doh - have to go through adjustment changes again until it settles again. I've moved on to a Sage DB now and my son has the BE,


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## ajohn

CoffeePlease said:


> Lavazza qualitá Rossa beans


I think a number of people have found that bean doesn't work well in an espresso machine including me, The choice may be made because they like it brewed in a different way. From memory one of their espresso beans worked out but can't say it suited me,

You could try using the single basket but use the razor tool to check or correct the fill height, When you use the double wall basket that helps control the flow rates so a coarser grinder setting can be used,

I didn't do much to try and make this bean drinkable, If you want to do that web gospel on brewing is likely to be a problem. Ok stick to a 30sec shot but forget comments on ratio. The best may be any number you think of. A for instance. Starbucks starting offering a blond roast. Not bad I thought so bought a pack to try. Not much luck getting the taste Starbucks do until I went to a ratio a little over 1 to 1. Close so I might buy another pack for fun. I generally drink fresh roasted but on the other type a ratio if up to 1 ti 5 has been needed. With fresh I often find ~ 1 to 2.5 is about right. Sometimes 1 to 2 or even 3. One bean I use a lot goes sweet if I cut the shot time to 20sec. I do that for my wife. I drink 1 to 3 in 30sec. Grinder setting same for both.

If you want to change time biggish one are needed. Say try 20 and 40 secs. Ratios still need to be varied, 

Bitterness can indicate a finer grind is needed which if course will change the ratio at some fixed time, Cutting the time may as well.

Fresh roasted is no different really. Gospel numbers do not always work out,


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## CoffeePlease

Unfortunately I have been drinking Lavazza Rossa for many years and I never thought of buying freshly roasted beans... To me the sealed packed that expires in 2 years from purchase has always meant FRESH, so I never thought anything else about it. Joining this forum has been an eye opener to say the least.

As I am awaiting for the Sage's promotional offer for having purchased a Barista Impress, namely £65 worth of freshly roasted coffey, I'll be keen to see what this will taste like.

I very rarely go to drink coffee in coffee shops and after having been very disappointed, on several occasions, with restaurant coffee, I always wait until I am at home to drink what I have been used to.

Regarding fine tuning the shot...
I am glad I went with the Impress!

The dose and tamper is always the same, one thing less to worry about.
The side grind dial is set to 5 and the internal one is on its default settings, whatever that is.

Using the double, high pressure basket, shows the pressure needle at about 11 o'clock and the total extraction is close to 28-30 seconds. Crema is there but not as much as shown in some YouTube videos, but I gather that this would be normal or expected for this coffee. I guess I am used to Lavazza and this machine is producing better than my old one, not allot I must add but it is certainly an improvement.

Currently I make 4 doubles a day, so 1 kilo of coffee beans don't last long, especially when there are additional guest in the mix. 😅

As I said, looking forward to new experiences soon.


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## grant brown

fresh roasted darker espesso beans will knock up your crema and flavour profile for sure. lighter roasted beans might not increase crema but should give a better flavour than lavazza that are usually roasted a long time before you get them. i usually get mine from wogan; i recently bought a new sage oracle but decided agin the bean offer. i did get the puck sucker free tho and have to say it works well.


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