# Water Purification - Home Reverse Osmosis



## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

Hello people. My first post.

Just wondering if anyone has experience installing a Reverse Osmosis filter in their home?

I've seen that small three to five stage machines can be purchased for not too much, and can be installed under the kitchen sink. Seems like it would be a great way to improving coffee brewing and eliminating scale build up.

We closed our café the other week (hopefully temporarily) due to Covid-19, and as I drained our RO I syphoned off 2lt to take home for V60 brewing. The difference in flavour is really quite noticeable (I use a Britta normally)

Anyone installed a RO machine at home? Any recommendations? Good places to buy? Etc.

Thanks, Hank


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

Hi and welcome, may your situation improve.

The forum search button can (SOMETIMES) help with specific subjects: https://coffeeforums.co.uk/search/?&q=reverse osmosis&search_and_or=and

This thread may be of interest: https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/44691-reverse-osmosis-osmio-zero-review/?tab=comments#comment-645383

There have recently been 'group purchases' of the above at a reduced rate. There may be one running at the moment????

With regard to your other threads, how about doing a rebuild on an older domestic lever machine to help keep you occupied during the wait to reopen the cafe etc? There is plenty of expert help (on the forum) for most makes.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Setting up an ro system is super easy,

Tap into a feed pipe, then tap into a drain.

They are quite wasteful though, so if your on a water meter it could add up.

You could run a dual membrane setup which will get you down closer to a 1:1 waste production

Id also say get an inline tds metre to see when your starting to need to replace filters


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

Link to the group purchase mentioned above...
https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/50701-osmio-zero-round-5/


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Wow there some money? And i thought reef keeping was expensive

A standard ro setup from the likes of finest filters is about £40


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

Thanks so much guys!

I have to say I really love this forum.

The osmio zero is a little out of my budget at the mo. But will definitely look into it a little more - first time hearing of it. For the time being I'll probably bottle up some RO'ed water from the cafe for use at home. Want to try and keep buying bottled water down to a minimum.

I will spend some more time swimming around the forum, seeing what other insights/knowledge I can pick up.

I ended up impulse buying a 2005 Gaggia Classic from Ratty from the 'For Sale' section on the forum. Looks like he's done an impeccable job of refurb'ing / upgrading it - Silvia steamwand, brass block, PID etc. Very very excited!!

H


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

Ahhh you bought it lol, I was going to get that hahaha... Good for you  I use a Osmio Zero (for about a year plus now)... love the water and really good for the machine too!


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

Kannan said:


> Ahhh you bought it lol, I was going to get that hahaha...


 Hi Kannan,
Sorry, I could not resist the opportunity.
What machine are you currently using?



Kannan said:


> I use a Osmio Zero (for about a year plus now)... love the water and really good for the machine too!


 good to know!
Does it require changing the filters often?
how much of an extra expense has it worked out to be?



Cuprajake said:


> Id also say get an inline tds metre


 Great idea!
I saw on youtube a cafe in the US use an inline metre to balance the minerals they were adding back into their water, by blending their RO water with a small feed of tapwater. They had a TDS after the RO and then another after the tapwater feed.

Have you any experience with inline TDS metres? know of a good / cheap one?

H


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

I've actually got a Sage Oracle right now with a Sette 270Wi grinder, but wanted to start playing around with flow profiles hence looking at a Classic to mod.

The filters go every 4-6 months and we use the Zero a lot! I think compared to the litres of Evian we used to drink it's worked out amazingly cost effective not to mention eco friendly.

I do wish they'd take back the filters though - they're quite a package and I feel really bad just chucking them! I was considering the under sink version (D7000?) but haven't gotten around to it - they do however waste a lot more water. I was also looking into Thirdwave to remineralise but I sensed myself getting a little too geeky so pulled back a little on that stuff  An inline TDS sounds good though...


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

Found this talk from La Marzocco a while back about water.
Super interesting!
Goes into more than just minerals and how PH and the solvency of de-mineralised water effects machines.


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

Kannan said:


> compared to the litres of Evian we used to drink it's worked out amazingly cost effective not to mention eco friendly.


 Awesome!!


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

See i know ro from my fish keeping

So i make rodi water for my reef with zero tds as soon as i see as much as 1 tds its time to change out all the cartridge

This is what i use

https://www.finerfilters.co.uk/finerfilters-inline-tds-meter.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwmpb0BRCBARIsAG7y4zZo1IBGvgrxH1nQn1vBxqTg6hnqSOwkNeXjHF2-O55twPPRj3_rCX8aAhE9EALw_wcB

Inline from the output of the membrane and then the final one after the di resin

I usually see numbers of 50 tds in 0 out

Mines a 50gpd unit which will fill a 25l tub in around 3hrs i have good pressure though

Jake


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Cuprajake said:


> See i know ro from my fish keeping
> 
> So i make rodi water for my reef with zero tds as soon as i see as much as 1 tds its time to change out all the cartridge
> 
> ...


 I'm guessing you're not on a water meter.... as whilst the Osmio Zero is more expensive than the RO filter you mentioned, those are VERY wasteful of water and if you're on a water meter that means VERY costly.

Whilst the Osmio Zero is more expensive to purchase, it's much cheaper to run than a 'normal' RO system as the waste water is a fraction.

I bought an expensive pumped, 5 stage RO system a few years ago - and due to the size and plumbing required to install it I never used it... it stayed boxed up until I sold it again on here.

I then bought an Osmio Zero from the group-buy on here a while ago, and have never been happier - it's a fantastic piece of kit.


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

Here is that video I mentioned of the Cafe/Roastery using inline TDS to balance their water


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

MrShades said:


> I then bought an Osmio Zero from the group-buy on here a while ago, and have never been happier


 sounds like the way to go - just got to save up



Cuprajake said:


> This is what i use
> 
> https://www.finerfilters.co.uk/finerfilters-inline-tds-meter.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwmpb0BRCBARIsAG7y4zZo1IBGvgrxH1nQn1vBxqTg6hnqSOwkNeXjHF2-O55twPPRj3_rCX8aAhE9EALw_wcB


 thanks dude, will take a look


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Well i have a double membrane system two but didnt want to confuse the situation haha

Figures were from when it was single


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Granted its a nice looking bit of kit, price is all relative i suppose if you have a 2k coffee machine the ro is pence,

Like my reef tank the cost of waste water a year couldnt buy certain corals


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

Found this on another post about RO in the Forum.
Brilliant Talk






Think this dude now works for Peak


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## Badgerman (Nov 23, 2017)

hankTremain said:


> thanks dude, will take a look


Only £321 currently. Not sure how long they will have that offer. Get involved


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

Badgerman said:


> Only £321 currently. Not sure how long they will have that offer. Get involved


 Unfortunately I'm not in the position to get involved at this stage -
Just splurged on my first domestic machine, thanks to Ratty selling me his pimped up Gaggia Classic.
- and I'm also planning on spending a little for bits and bobs to get that running in my flat.
So no money to spare right now... though I'll no doubt join in on a group buy in the future!



hankTremain said:


> Think this dude now works for Peak


 He is in fact the very man who set up Peak.
Anyone have any experience using their filters now they are shipping orders?


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## Iceman (Mar 26, 2020)

Being on a water meter is not as expensive as some think, I think the average cost for 1000liters is £3-£5, the main costs are the standing charges etc, once you pay for those charges, using an extra 1000 litres will not make that much of a difference to your bill, you would have to not flush your toilet a lot to save 1000 litres

Saying that, is distilled water drinkable? It's only around £1 for 2.5 litres at most petrol stations?


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

Iceman said:


> Saying that, is distilled water drinkable? It's only around £1 for 2.5 litres at most petrol stations?


 No, at least not recommended for your heath.
You can re-mineralise it - Third Wave Water, is a company who have created minerals for this very function
https://thirdwavewater.com/


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Ro is not distilled water though,

Rodi water is bad and should not be drunk

Then there's things like hma filters too


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Those videos left me more confused than when I started. Is there a consensus on what the best water for espresso is? RO water with remineralisation but what minerals and how much.


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

@DavecUK & @MWJB are the guys who should put you right, just wait until they pop by...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

mctrials23 said:


> Those videos left me more confused than when I started. Is there a consensus on what the best water for espresso is? RO water with remineralisation but what minerals and how much.


 40-60mg/L alkalinity/KH as CaCO3. Your water authority may be able to tell you the alkalinity/KH/bicarbonate content of your tap water. If not, you can get a KH drop kit.

You have a source of minerals piped into your home from the water company, you can mix it with RO to get in the above range. You can alternatively add sodium bicarbonate to pure water, 100mg/L will give you 60mg/L alkalinity.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

********** said:


> @DavecUK & @MWJB are the guys who should put you right, just wait until they pop by...


 I got the popcorn out at the beginning of all this....I'm saying nuthin.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> I got the popcorn out at the beginning of all this....I'm saying nuthin.


 Your silence is saying something in itself Dave and you know it!

Just come out with it ?


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

mctrials23 said:


> Is there a consensus on what the best water for espresso is?


 Unfortunately not. And what I gather from the Maxwell Colonna-Dashwood videos is that's it's more complicated than that. It's not just a case of finding the best water for coffee, as each coffee has been roasted using different water as it's base for tasting reference. I'd imagine in the future there'll be curtain standard water compositions that roasters will start adhering to so that the same water can be replicated at home / in cafes they supply. For now the best coarse of action maybe to ask advice from the roastery you are buying you coffee from (what water are they using for cupping, and how might you approximate that at home). You might even talk them into selling you some water processed by them with your beans - probably a bit much.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

hankTremain said:


> Unfortunately not. And what I gather from the Maxwell Colonna-Dashwood videos is that's it's more complicated than that. It's not just a case of finding the best water for coffee, as each coffee has been roasted using different water as it's base for tasting reference. I'd imagine in the future there'll be curtain standard water compositions that roasters will start adhering to so that the same water can be replicated at home / in cafes they supply. For now the best coarse of action maybe to ask advice from the roastery you are buying you coffee from (what water are they using for cupping, and how might you approximate that at home). You might even talk them into selling you some water processed by them with your beans - probably a bit much.


 This is an unrealistic proposition for all but the most avid.

I have never had any serious advice from a roaster who may have suggested my water might be an issue.

Understanding your water make up allows you to shift it in whatever direction you think you will serve you for brewed, but for espresso boilers, where scaling is the predominant issue, Jim Schulman, Water for Coffee by Colonna-Dashwood & CH Hendon, the SCAA, SCAE water report all concur with an alkalinity range of 40-60mg/L as CaCO3.


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Water for Coffee by Colonna-Dashwood


 In the middle of trying to track down a copy. seems to be out of stock everywhere.
Anyone got a good suggestion for a store (maybe coffee related) that might have a copy...
...and/or anyone have a copy lying around they'd be willing to sell me?



MWJB said:


> This is an unrealistic proposition for all but the most avid.


 totally


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

MWJB said:


> I have never had any serious advice from a roaster who may have suggested my water might be an issue.


 This maybe as much a symptom of water not being on most roasters radars, as much as proof it shouldn't be considered.
Colonna-Dashwood's video I linked to earlier has an antidote of this very instance.
Though in this case the solution was the inverse - matching the roasters water to the brewers water, rather than brewers to roasters.



> 20 hours ago, hankTremain said:
> 
> Brilliant Talk


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

hankTremain said:


> This maybe as much a symptom of water not being on most roasters radars, as much as proof it shouldn't be considered.
> Colonna-Dashwood's video I linked to earlier has an antidote of this very instance.
> Though in this case the solution was the inverse - matching the roasters water to the brewers water, rather than brewers to roasters.


 I guess there are a few problems.

If you tell people that your coffee should be brewed/made with water with specific properties there is a high likelihood people will either think you are being ridiculous, pretentious, unrealistic or at best they will not play around with grind and other parameters to try and get the best from the coffee because "its the waters fault". Some people won't buy it for these reasons.

If you are going to set a standard then that standard has to be something that the end user can control.

In the case of a roaster selling coffee, the end user is you or I.

In the case of a roaster submitting a coffee to a competition, they are the end user.

If this sort of thing is to happen, roasters everywhere have to be working from the same specs for their water or at least very similar. Then people can be sure that if they make an effort to treat and recondition their water, its not a fruitless process that will only benefit the roasts from a few places.

On the other hand, scale is my main concern honestly and it sounds like I will get a better cup of coffee at the same time which is a bonus!


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

mctrials23 said:


> they will not play around with grind and other parameters to try and get the best from the coffee because "its the waters fault".


 Don't see why someone would think this? Water is just another variable, one of countless variables in coffee brewing.
The depth of how much can be explored and learnt about coffee is, I think, what's drawing more and more people to specialty coffee.
It's the reason we pimp out machines, add PIDs etc. It's because we want to explore those variables deeper.



mctrials23 said:


> If you are going to set a standard then that standard has to be something that the end user can control.


 For sure.

I imagine that if a standard water composition is set (or a number of), it will be led by technology.
If machines like the Ozmio Zero becomes the ubiquitous water processing unit for coffee, and if such a machine produces reasonably consistent composition of water regardless of it's input sauce, then it would make sense for roasteries to profile their coffees for that water.



mctrials23 said:


> On the other hand, scale is my main concern honestly and it sounds like I will get a better cup of coffee at the same time which is a bonus!


 Totally!!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

hankTremain said:


> Don't see why someone would think this? Water is just another variable, one of countless variables in coffee brewing.


 if there were countless variables, people would only make nice cups by chance. That's not the case.

Use water formulation to control scale, to drink nicer coffee - buy nicer coffee.


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

MWJB said:


> countless variables


 I should have said 'so many' - but was thinking how more variables may yet to being discovered.


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

MWJB said:


> people would only make nice cups by chance


 Not saying we have no control over those variables, or that some don't have more impact on brewing than others.
I am saying however, that it seems Water may have a bigger more nuanced impact than most realise.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

hankTremain said:


> I should have said 'so many' - but was thinking how more variables may yet to being discovered.


 If they are to be discovered, they don't matter much, coffee making is pretty repeatable.

More attention should be paid to effective training & education, rather than naval gazing. Then more people would be happier with their coffee more often.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

hankTremain said:


> Not saying we have no control over those variables, or that some don't have more impact on brewing than others.
> I am saying however, that it seems Water may have a bigger more nuanced impact than most realise.


 After the coffee itself, water has the biggest impact (assuming nominal brewing).

But, for espresso & boilers the advice needs to be more practical...you're not going to use amazing tasting water that scales your machines, or pits your boiler.

All the focus is on GH:KH, but matching these doesn't always produce the same taste.

If a roaster has "the correct" brewing water for a coffee, how did they arrive at this? Sample the water from the estate it came from?


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Sample the water from the estate it came from?


 interesting idea.


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

Don't want to upset anyone who's not interested in looking too deeply into the subject, but someone kindly shared this on another thread:



hankTremain said:


> Free paper published by Zurich University of Applied Sciences.
> 
> https://scae.com/images/pdfs/AST-LIVE-2016/Water-Composition-for-Coffee.pdf


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

MWJB said:


> If a roaster has "the correct" brewing water for a coffee, how did they arrive at this? Sample the water from the estate it came from?


 The bean isn't the issue though is it? The issue is the roast. In the video, the chap says that he was roasting a bean that tasted amazing but was getting bad feedback from the competition that he sent it to. When they replicated the competitions rough water composition and roasted to taste best with that water, it was received really well. So they adjusted the roast to the water, not the raw bean.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

mctrials23 said:


> The bean isn't the issue though is it? The issue is the roast. In the video, the chap says that he was roasting a bean that tasted amazing but was getting bad feedback from the competition that he sent it to. When they replicated the competitions rough water composition and roasted to taste best with that water, it was received really well. So they adjusted the roast to the water, not the raw bean.


 Sure, I have read the book & watched all the videos.

My experience is, adjusting the water is big factor in perceived acidity of the particular coffee, which varies by origin, from the same roaster. Roast also affects perceived acidity.

So a high acidity roast can be fine with more alkalinity and a low acidity roast might still work well with low alkalinity.

But I think my gist extends to the roast too and the fact that very specific targets are somewhat arbitrary/preference.


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## hankTremain (Apr 1, 2020)

MWJB said:


> water is big factor in perceived acidity of the particular coffee, which varies by origin


 Wonder if the flavour differences between origin, is in part due to the water table in those regions (obviously on top of: altitude, climate, soil make up... etc)?
Someone in a QnA on youtube asked Colonna-Dashwood if he thought the water used during processing effects flavour - I'd image it does to some extent?

found it:
- lots the same as other talk but some interesting new bits. QnA at 24:10


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