# Francino Cherub boiler leaks steam whenever on



## CardiffCherub (Nov 4, 2019)

Hi all, Have an issue where my Francino Cherub made a 'blast' of steam one day inside the unit... and now there is a constant stream of steam coming out of where the red arrow is pointing in the photo any time the machine is on. Unfortunately, this means I can't use it at all at the moment. Is there any way to fix this easily? Or does it need to go back to Francino?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The blast of steam was due to an overpressure situation and the safety valve venting.....so that overpressure situation was due to a problem not yet diagnosed (pressurestat). If the pressurestat failed to control pressure due to a limescale blockage, then that could have caused the secondary problem that after venting the safety valve doesn't seal properly any more. It's also possible that there have been overpressure situations you have been unaware of and it's been enough to make the safety valve weep and thus get the seat dirty.

So it could have been:



Limescale causing


Pressure regulation problems


causing safety valve problems


leading to a single bigger over pressure event


causing safety valve to no longer seal.


Or it could have been the contacts sticking on the Sirai Stat, unlikely but it can happen...it could also be a failing safety valve

Not knowing the age of machine, water used, what the pressure gauge has been showing and whether it has ever shown abnormally high readings. The above is purely guesswork.


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## CardiffCherub (Nov 4, 2019)

Thanks DavecUK for your reply! 😀 ... so that BIG copper thing protruding off the boiler is the safety valve, yes? 🤔 It's a five year old machine... home descaled 1x about 2 years ago. We only put filtered water in her. Think I will play it safe this time and send her in for descaling and fix. Or... do you think it will end up costing an insane amount 🙈 so a new machine is the better way to go? Do you know how long the boilers on this type of machine tend to last for? Also.. can I reset it using that silver tab on the safety valve... or what is that on there for in any case! 😆


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

CardiffCherub said:


> Thanks DavecUK for your reply! 😀 ...
> 
> 1. so that BIG copper thing protruding off the boiler is the safety valve, yes? 🤔
> 
> ...


 1. The Brass thing...yes it's the safety valve

2. It's not very old then

2.1 If you mean britta jug type filter, unless you change the cartridge every few weeks and only use it for the machine and live in a medium hard water area, it's not much use. So I'll guess at limescale and the need for descaling BUT that doesn't mean that's the problem, as those big Sirai stats are noisy but reliable.

3. It will cost more than you probably want to pay, it's also not a hard job

4. Absolutely not unless you want a new machine. Replace the safety valve and use a torch to look for scale (you might be able to see it). Descale and keep a close eye on it.

5. Decades

6. To stop you mucking about with it instead of replacing it


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## CardiffCherub (Nov 4, 2019)

Great.. thanks DavecUK ! Yes, the machine cost 1k nowadays... so having a certified engineer from a local coffee company https://www.cortilecoffee.co.uk/ come and have a look. He is coming tonight at 6pm and is going to try repair and see if it needs a descale / service. Will let you know how much it runs and what was ultimately wrong with it... and how much it costs! 😄🙃😭


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## CardiffCherub (Nov 4, 2019)

Well.. the main problem was the safety valve. It was releasing at .1 bars rather than the 1.6-1.8 bars where it was supposed to. The technician replaced the valve.

Ultimately, it should have been a cheap repair as the safety valve was only £10. But with the call out charge of £50... and £30 per hour... and the fact a 15 minute job was stretched out to 2 hours as the technician loved talking so much and wouldn't really work unless people were chatting with him... it ended up costing an extortionate £144. Also... while he said the heating element might need to be replaced... he didn't actually do it... as he said the descaling (if I did one soon) might damage it. As the limescale build-up was quite minor (< 1mm where it was present)... I wasn't really planning on doing that yet in any case. He said there also may have been a small issue with the pressure control (see image)... but the replacement he had in the van luckily didn't fit... so after he tightened it a bit it seemed to work better in any case.. so not really sure there was an issue with it.

All in all... I would probably have been better off sending it in for full service and repair--as the fix I currenlty have for £144 only got the machine working again... as it still heats up too fast and I have to switch it off after making my espresso and then turning it back on for 10-15 if I need another later in the day... and repeat.

If anyone knows of a good service place do let me know in the comments! Thanks


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

*What does "heat up to fast" mean exactly?*

Often the best place to repair these machines is in your own home with some basic tools....I did warn about the cost, especially when you get a mobile tech in to do the work as opposed to dropping it in somewhere.

I'm glad he didn't change the stat as they are quite expensive, for you to buy and the big Sirai ones don't go wrong that often. he probably said the heating element needed replacing because for some reason it's common for them to leak at the element gasket on the larger Fracinos with bigger heating elements. I think it's an expansion contraction thing as on a lot of them they are 2.8Kw heating elements (quite high power anyway). Unless he is psychic or saw damage on a boroscope (camera on a thin tube you can insert into the boiler), he would have no way of knowing.

Descaling can cause blockages (and show leaks that scale was blocking), especially if you let it build up too much... but so can not descaling. The real answer is to use water that won't scale, or if it does, very very slowly. I'd sort out the rest of the problems so the machine as well and me personally....I would descale it (but that's me)...but I suppose you can leave it, the worry always is scale builds up on the heating element.

P.S. For recommendations on a good service place, if you put your location in your profile, it may help people suggest somewhere local to you.


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## CardiffCherub (Nov 4, 2019)

HI DavecUK,

Yes, am going to start to try to repair at home in future where possible. I live near Cardiff in terms of location... thought that would have been clear from my name 🙈😀 . Ah yes, I will try to descale to remove any grit from the heating element and let you know how it goes. It may be a few days until I do it though as just want to enjoy a few espressos before I undertake yet another job around the house 🤣! Thanks again for all the input ! 👍


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

CardiffCherub said:


> HI DavecUK,
> 
> Yes, am going to start to try to repair at home in future where possible. I live near Cardiff in terms of location... thought that would have been clear from my name 🙈😀 . Ah yes, I will try to descale to remove any grit from the heating element and let you know how it goes. It may be a few days until I do it though as just want to enjoy a few espressos before I undertake yet another job around the house 🤣! Thanks again for all the input ! 👍


 *What does "heat up to fast" mean exactly?*


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## CardiffCherub (Nov 4, 2019)

Hey DavecUK... by heat up fast... I mean I can turn my machine on... and in 15 minutes the top of the machine is already getting close to 'hot to the touch' and at a good temperature for making an espresso... rather than the usual 30-40 minutes it takes when it is working normally and not heating up fast. When it heats up fast... I simply make my espressos after 15 minutes... and then turn the machine off again until I would like to make another espresso. Rinse and repeat. Now, it does happen sometimes that it stops heating up fast and returns to 'normal' for 2 - 3 weeks at a time... during which time the machine can be left on without worry so to speak.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Fracino machines will heat up quite quickly compared to some as they have quite a powerful element. I am not sure why the time would vary so much but I would say after 15 minutes of it heating even a Fracino is unlikely to have fully heated the group to the point it would be suitable for brewing without seeing a large temperature drop.

The top of the machine will be warm in normal operation due to heat rising off the boiler. This is desirable as it is a useful way to passively heat your cups.

Is it possible the top was becoming hot very quickly before the repair as the steam was leaking on to it from a faulty valve? Steam will also rise from the anti vac valve for a short period of time on warm up and again may well cause a hot spot on the top of the case.


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## CardiffCherub (Nov 4, 2019)

Good point BlackCatCoffee! During what I call normal operation the top of the machine is warm and you could rest you hand on it... during 'fast heating' the top and group becomes hot enough that you wouldn't want to rest your hand on for long.

I tested. Turned on the machine from cold. After 15 minutes (albeit using a non-ideal food thermometer as the temperature could be affected by the air around it)... the group was at 66 degrees C and the water was 72 degrees C. .. so not perhaps hot enough for espresso yet.

I opened up the top 'lid' of the machine and there was no condensation (from steam) on the side facing inside the machine... so thankfully it doesn't look like steam is coming out.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Does the pressure gauge sit at operating temperature of 1 - 1.2 bars during one of these fast heat ups or does it go over?

I just wonder if the pressure stat is sticky and keeps heating the machine to the point it blew your safety valve at around 1.8bar then failed to reseat correctly. If this is the case your problem is not actually solved, changing the safety valve will have just cured a symptom.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Does the pressure gauge sit at operating temperature of 1 - 1.2 bars during one of these fast heat ups or does it go over?
> 
> I just wonder if the pressure stat is sticky and keeps heating the machine to the point it blew your safety valve at around 1.8bar then failed to reseat correctly. If this is the case your problem is not actually solved, changing the safety valve will have just cured a symptom.


 referring OP back to this first post of mine

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55474-francino-cherub-boiler-leaks-steam-whenever-on/?do=embed&comment=786766&embedComment=786766&embedDo=findComment


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## CardiffCherub (Nov 4, 2019)

Hi both, Yes, the pressure now goes up to 1.1 and stays there reliably.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

CardiffCherub said:


> Hi both, Yes, the pressure now goes up to 1.1 and stays there reliably.


 Leep an eye on it, if it starts going unstable (more than usual) try a descale, unless your doing one anyway.

When descaling, don't disconnect the autofill probe....just give the machine a bit of a wave around in the air to slop the descaler all around the tank (especially the top). When rinsing the tank out do the same.


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