# Complete newbie system advice



## justinsaid (Jun 28, 2015)

Hey,

So I have got into good coffee in a big way over the last few years and think now is the time to get a decent coffee machine at home and learn how to make it (properly) myself.

I have considered bean to cup (please don't be angry) as this could well be best as a starting point and for my current needs. I am mainly a cappuccino drinker and my partner also likes either a latte or cappuccino, so we will mainly be making milk based drinks. I do like the odd espresso though. We would probably be making 2-4 cups a day between us and don't have a load of kitchen space for the bigger machines (height and depth space of around 40cm, width not an issue)

As for budget, I am quite flexible but don't want to go overboard as this is my first venture into the world of home coffee making. Anywhere around the £3-800 for the whole lot would be fine and I am not adverse to buying a solid bit of second hand kit if it will be far superior and has been well looked after.

Machines I have considered are probably pretty standard Classic or Rancilio Silvia but am unsure if they will be suitable for our milky needs? Would stretch to a second hand Cherub, but this may well be a bit too big and/or not necessary for my beginner needs and general low daily coffee needs?

As for a grinder, this will probably get matched up to the level of machine I go for, but I see the general consensus is to go for the best you can afford.

I currently have no experience of making coffee but keen to learn and would be happy to go on a day course to learn the basics and refine from there.

So based on all the above does anyone have any words of advice for me? Is a bean to cup machine something I should look into and realistically consider?

Once I have established this, then I can start considering all the extras I need. And then start researching the vast world of coffee beans!

Pretty excited all round to be honest! 

Justin


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## justinsaid (Jun 28, 2015)

Is it completely unthinkable to get a bean to cup? I think something like a Sage by Heston Barista Mini might be good for me.

Convenient, easy enough to use and would (hopefully) produce consistent coffee for now. Although im

concerned il never get that wow coffee I want. Is this a silly idea? I imagine I am talking to purists, who will advise me against this type of move.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

I'd read that's a pretty decent machine but that the grinder isn't so good on it. You'll get divided opinion for Sage as that's still relatively new in the market but you might be better looking at the cheaper machine from Sage without grinder and getting a different make grinder second hand to get more for your money and higher likelihood of the lively coffee you're aiming for.

I have no experience of other bean to cup possibilities and haven't seen them come up very often in discussion, in my limited time on the forum.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Will you be making 2 milk drinks at the same time? If so, the classic is problematic for that due to boiler recovery times. You need at least 5mins between shots but you also need to pull both before steaming as it takes even longer to get the boiler back to brew temperature after a steam cycle.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

justinsaid said:


> Is it completely unthinkable to get a bean to cup? I think something like a Sage by Heston Barista Mini might be good for me.
> 
> Convenient, easy enough to use and would (hopefully) produce consistent coffee for now. Although im
> 
> concerned il never get that wow coffee I want. Is this a silly idea? I imagine I am talking to purists, who will advise me against this type of move.


Bean to cup machines are a compromise. You won't get the same results from a decent machine/grinder combination due, in the main, to the fact that the grinder isn't brilliant. That said, the Sage B2C is surprisingly competent. The built in pre-infusion on the Mini is a useful addition but at £350.00 it's a lot to pay for that function.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Always factor in your budget a decent grinder


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## justinsaid (Jun 28, 2015)

NJD1977 said:


> Will you be making 2 milk drinks at the same time? If so, the classic is problematic for that due to boiler recovery times. You need at least 5mins between shots but you also need to pull both before steaming as it takes even longer to get the boiler back to brew temperature after a steam cycle.


Yes, generally I will be making two milky drinks at the same time. I guess that rules out the classic. Would I be looking at HXs for this type of thing?


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## justinsaid (Jun 28, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Bean to cup machines are a compromise. You won't get the same results from a decent machine/grinder combination due, in the main, to the fact that the grinder isn't brilliant. That said, the Sage B2C is surprisingly competent. The built in pre-infusion on the Mini is a useful addition but at £350.00 it's a lot to pay for that function.


I have only seen them for £550, are they available in places for £350?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Sage B2C retails around £550.00. The Mini which is a conventional single boiler machine with pre-infusion retails for £350.00. If you do go for a Sage, seriously consider buying from Lakeland as they offer a lifetime warranty - something that would be a good thing for a B2C machine.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

justinsaid said:


> Yes, generally I will be making two milky drinks at the same time. I guess that rules out the classic. Would I be looking at HXs for this type of thing?


Not necessarily. With a conventional single boiler like the Classic or Silvia, you make the espresso and then have to flick a switch and wait for the temp in the boiler to rise to enable steaming. If you want to make a second milk based espresso, you have to wait for the machine to cool down as the temp at which espressos are made are lower than that used for steaming. A HX machine gets round this delay as you can begin steaming milk as soon as you've pulled the espresso.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

You can pick up a used HX for around 450-600 mark depending on make and condition. and 200-250 on a good used grinder.

I agree with TSK a used Classic is a good place to start and spend the 200-250 on the grinder still.


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

The Classic is great for learning on and if you wait for a used one on here you will get most if not all of your money back if you do upgrade. I personally would not go for a b2c machine but I am enjoying the ritual of making great coffee.


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Personally Id favor the Rancilio silvia V4 over the classic, I know it costs more but think its a better machine and worth the extra.

I have no problem making two cappuccinos on my classic at the same time. I make both espressos first and by the time ive emptied the portafilter from the last shot and put my beans back in the fridge and got the milk out, purged the wand, its ready to steam the milk.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?24393-KitchenAid-Artisan-Espresso-Machine-in-Onyx-Black-£225


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> Personally Id favor the Rancilio silvia V4 over the classic, I know it costs more but think its a better machine and worth the extra.


The Silvia is another option for a single boiler but aside from aesthetics and a brass boiler there's not much in it compared to a Classic and it's a bigger jump in price. Obviously this is just my personal preference.


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## justinsaid (Jun 28, 2015)

Thanks for all of the advice guys. Would ideally like to get a Classic or a Rancilia Silvia but really my main concern is that I may have to fit extras like a PID and a better wand (as we prefer milky drinks), these are things I think I would struggle with to be honest. I suppose if I got them second hand I should be able to pick one up with these things already sorted. Then I would have to worry about a grinder, on that subject, how long would a decent grinder last before performance started to have some degradation?

One of the main draws about getting the Sage B2C was not only the ease of making a fairly solid coffee quicker, it was also that it is pretty much ready to go straight out of the box without having to consider anything else to buy or to need any modifications done to the machine to make it more suitable for myself.

I think I will wait for at least a few weeks, read up a bit more and increase my knowledge to help me decide what the right machine for my needs will be.


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

The wand mod on the Classic is stupidly easy but as you say you could get a secondhand and if someone's done the PID mod I'd be really surprised if they haven't done the wand.

As for a grinder get the best you can afford. I'm on my third in six months the difference with each very noticeable especially the last, for the better obviously and all paired with the Classic.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

justinsaid said:


> Thanks for all of the advice guys. Would ideally like to get a Classic or a Rancilia Silvia but really my main concern is that I may have to fit extras like a PID and a better wand (as we prefer milky drinks), these are things I think I would struggle with to be honest. I suppose if I got them second hand I should be able to pick one up with these things already sorted. Then I would have to worry about a grinder, on that subject, how long would a decent grinder last before performance started to have some degradation?
> 
> One of the main draws about getting the Sage B2C was not only the ease of making a fairly solid coffee quicker, it was also that it is pretty much ready to go straight out of the box without having to consider anything else to buy or to need any modifications done to the machine to make it more suitable for myself.
> 
> I think I will wait for at least a few weeks, read up a bit more and increase my knowledge to help me decide what the right machine for my needs will be.


They seem less common but you can pick up a classic with a PID and that's, as mentioned, almost certainly had the Silvia wand etc as well. The one i bought was £200 on the forum. I also bought a much more expensive machine on impulse a couple of weeks after, so I'm considering moving the classic on.


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## noelweston (Oct 7, 2012)

Just another thought - you said in your original post that you wanted to learn to make your own drinks. That's not going to happen with a bean-to-cup machine - it will produce drinks/on demand easily, but if you want to be involved than you need a "proper" setup.

As others have said, a Gaggia classic with a good grinder is a great starting point for a reasonable price. You don't need a PID, and the wand and OPV changes are easy. You can also make incremental upgrades very cheaply - wand, OPV adjustment, brass dispersion plate, shower screen, PID - but only as & when you need to. You will still get decent espresso in the mean time. A good grinder is needed - minimum of something like an MC2, but there are many options. A good commercial grinder will last for years, or until you decide to upgrade...

You can make multiple milk based drinks - it just takes time/patience. A bigger and better machine will make things quicker and more stable, but you can manage with a classic. I've had mine a few years (with preground coffee and 4 different grinders)and am still learning. I'm now debating whether to add a PID or save up move on to something else - DIY PID is affordable but I'm not sure on my skills, but a better machine is a big chunk of cash for 4 or 5 drinks a day.

Hope this helps a bit - decide whether you want convenient or learning, pick a budget and jump in!

Noel


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## justinsaid (Jun 28, 2015)

noelweston said:


> Just another thought - you said in your original post that you wanted to learn to make your own drinks. That's not going to happen with a bean-to-cup machine - it will produce drinks/on demand easily, but if you want to be involved than you need a "proper" setup.
> 
> As others have said, a Gaggia classic with a good grinder is a great starting point for a reasonable price. You don't need a PID, and the wand and OPV changes are easy. You can also make incremental upgrades very cheaply - wand, OPV adjustment, brass dispersion plate, shower screen, PID - but only as & when you need to. You will still get decent espresso in the mean time. A good grinder is needed - minimum of something like an MC2, but there are many options. A good commercial grinder will last for years, or until you decide to upgrade...
> 
> ...


Thanks Noel, sound advice.

What does an OPV adjustment do? and how essential is it for a machine like a Classic or a Silvia?


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

OPV is over pressure valve. The mod is turning the pressure down to 9-10 bar as it is set higher than this when the machine leaves the factory. Most Classics sold on here will have had this done already.


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> Personally Id favor the Rancilio silvia V4 over the classic, I know it costs more but think its a better machine and worth the extra.





urbanbumpkin said:


> The Silvia is another option for a single boiler but aside from aesthetics and a brass boiler there's not much in it compared to a Classic and it's a bigger jump in price. Obviously this is just my personal preference.


I think the Rancilio Silvia is better made and uses better internal parts, there seems to be more copper used for the pipes inside.



justinsaid said:


> Would ideally like to get a Classic or a Rancilia Silvia but really my main concern is that I may have to fit extras like a PID and a better wand (as we prefer milky drinks), these are things I think I would struggle with to be honest.


From what I have read on here and elsewhere people who have bought a silvia keep them for longer and are inherently happier with the machine than those that have bought the classic..I think they are also more stable temp wise which leads me to question the need to PID them as much as with the classic.

The silvia comes with the wand factory fitted as standard that gaggia users clamour after.


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## calc (Mar 29, 2015)

Whilst considering all of the suggestions above ^^ also have a read about the Quick Mill Silvano. It's more expensive than the classic/silvia but it should still come within your budget. It has a separate thermo-block so it can steam and brew at the same time, has a quick heat-up time and PID control of the brew boiler. I've never owned one but when I was researching what to buy this machine impressed me with what it could do for the money (it's £699 from BB) and it gets some good reviews.


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## justinsaid (Jun 28, 2015)

Thanks to all. I think im sold on getting a Rancino Silvia and (probably) Eureka Mignon ii grinder, both second hand.

Is a Mazzer Mini significantly better than a Mignon ii? I would ideally like to set up under a cupboard so only have 45cm to play with.

What accessories should I be looking to get? And if you could also say how essential each is that would help, as I would probably buy the most essential stuff immediately and then buy other stuff as I go...

Thanks again


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Decent fitting metal tamper and scales - essential


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Milk frothing jug, preferably one with a spout. You will need this for the milk frothing. I have seen someone use a baked bean can with a bend in the lip to get by until funds allow, but the sides get hot

Coco shaker, for the dispensing of coco onto the top of your cappuccinos. Not essential, but a good edition to any baristas home kit.

Before outlaying for the tamper decide if you are getting a VST or similar upgraded basket so you get the right sized tamper.


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## justinsaid (Jun 28, 2015)

So I had mentally set myself to buy a Rancilio Silvia and Eureka Mignon mk 2 if I saw the in the for sale option but took the plunge yesterday when I saw a great starter set at a great price in the for sale section, 10 minutes away from where I live!

Next week I will be the proud owner of my first setup:

Gaggia Classic (with PID mod/portafilter pressure gauge/Rancilio steam wand)

Sage smart grinder pro (virtually brand new)

I got so excited that I also bought a load of accessories:

Motta 58mm Tamper

Jugs

Scales

Knock box

2x500g Brighton Lane beans, 1x500 Java Jampit Estate beans


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Sage smart grinder pro (virtually brand new)

Might struggle with this a little, make sure it has the shim kit added.

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?19152-Sage-Smart-Grinder


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> Sage smart grinder pro (virtually brand new)
> 
> Might struggle with this a little, make sure it has the shim kit added.
> 
> http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?19152-Sage-Smart-Grinder


I think the "Pro" is the newer one that doesn't need the Shim kit.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

justinsaid said:


> So I had mentally set myself to buy a Rancilio Silvia and Eureka Mignon mk 2 if I saw the in the for sale option but took the plunge yesterday when I saw a great starter set at a great price in the for sale section, 10 minutes away from where I live!
> 
> Next week I will be the proud owner of my first setup:
> 
> ...


Congratulations, that is a great price for a decent entry level set-up!


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Absolute bargain. If you ever want to upgrade you will easily get your money back.

My Classic has taught me loads.


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