# How satisfied are you with your coffee?



## Jugglestruck (Nov 17, 2011)

For the last week I have pulled shots of espresso that I really can't see how they can be improved on.

This is a first in a long, long time. For most of my coffee drinking life I have constantly tweaked my technique to improve it but now all I want to do is recreate what I did the day before.

Just to add here, I'm sure my espresso can be improved on but to me, at present, it is a near perfect drink







I'm sure all this will change though with new beans etc......

How do you rate your coffee? Are you constantly tweaking your technique or do you consistently pull shots which you think are as good as you are going to get from you machine? Do you sit down every morning and delight in what you have made or do you often pull a face and think that tomorrow you will try differently?


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## espresso.marco (Feb 16, 2012)

I tend to be of the mind that, it is the ever presence of "what if" should always be applied before coming to any conclusion! This i understand maybe a little 'deep' but if we are ever to find and experience all the delights coffee has to offer we should never except second best in the tastes we enjoy.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

If I've dialed in a particular bean to a particular brew method and the beans are stable then for me it's generally just a case of repeating previous steps consistently. But the dialing in bit can give some truly cack coffees.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I think im at the stage where I have a preference for certain flavour profiles in coffee....certainly roast profile, country of origin , and, processing technique. Not quite there with varietals. (for example I love Bolivian's for espresso but not always Bourbon or Typica)

Almost confident enough to say if I dont like the coffee berverage im producing then I dont like the coffee bean itself....rather than finding symptoms of my own poor extraction technique!


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## Jugglestruck (Nov 17, 2011)

Garydyke, out of interest, how happy are you with your Expo? Is it something you would buy again or would you choose a different machine?

I've just been looking at one online and it seems to be a pretty nifty machine for the price and it looks okay too.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Jugglestruck said:


> Garydyke, out of interest, how happy are you with your Expo? Is it something you would buy again or would you choose a different machine?
> 
> I've just been looking at one online and it seems to be a pretty nifty machine for the price and it looks okay too.


I cant fault it. It can fault me : )

Bad points - The Vibe pump is quite noisy (compared to Rotary in say an Izzo Alex Duetta)

- I have no need for the hot water tap , would be nice to have a cheaper option without it

- Dual Boilers are not easy to de-scale.

- It weighs a tonne

Good points - All industry standard bits, cheap to replace

- E61 very forgiving with pre-infusion

- temperature stablility no surfing required

-PID rules , so easy to change temp

- It just ''works''

- i think it looks bad-ass

- ability to just brew , just steam or both

- Steaming is pretty good when you get the pressure right for the tip

If I had my time over again - Same machine but Rotary and plumbing in via an in-line water filter and drainage to outlet pipe.....and 120 quid knocked off for not needing hot water tap!


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

Not satisfied at all. I've been at it for a few months but really only about three weeks with fresh beans. I can get drinkable stuff, especially when mixed in a long drink, but my hit rate is woefully low. Then I have to change beans and start over











MikeHag said:


> If I've dialed in a particular bean to a particular brew method and the beans are stable then for me it's generally just a case of repeating previous steps consistently. *But the dialing in bit can give some truly cack coffees.*


Thank you Mike - you may have brought me back from the brink of selling up my espresso gear. I've been striving for 2oz of espresso in 20-30 seconds and throwing 5 or 6 shots down the sink daily. I'm finding this difficult but will continue with my 1Kg of Lusty Glaze, Gaggia Classic and MC2 until I hit the spot. At least I can tell when to walk away from the machine to let it heat up properly again.

Al


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Can I ask, why are you aiming for 2oz, Al? I know that's the traditional thing people are told when they are starting out, but many people on here seem to pull a shorter shot. I know I like a 1-1.5oz shot as it's just richer and tastier to me. 2oz is too diluted for my tastes. A shorter shot still goes very well in milk drinks... better actually, I think.

I too am having problems dialing in my Lusty Glaze at the moment, but I strongly suspect it's down to my now using a different machine and new burrs. (New thread coming any second!)


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> Can I ask, why are you aiming for 2oz, Al? I know that's the traditional thing people are told when they are starting out, but many people on here seem to pull a shorter shot.


What he said ^^^^^

I have been finding that 1-1.5oz does taste better but I'm also having problems identifying when the shot starts blonding and that's where I think I'm going wrong. I know Gail over at Seattle said that blonding actually added to the taste but getting the amount correct seems to be the key.

On a more positive note - my tamping has improved to the point that I've not had a gusher for a few weeks now - progress









Al (awaiting Classic reaching working temperature)


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

My advice, don't watch the colour. Buy some pocket scales, put them on the drip tray under your shot glass, and watch the weight instead. Start off with a brew ratio of 1.5. This means whatever the weight of your grinds in the basket, multiply by 1.5 and that is the weight of your shot, and when you should stop the shot. E.g. 16g grinds, 24g shot. 18g grinds, 27g shot.

Start at 1.5, then try 1.4, then 1.6, until you find the one that suits you best.


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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

I kinda agree with mike, but at the same time...

I'd say start as mike suggests, but be aware of the shot's appearance - just don't use that information at this stage. The appearance of a shot can give you lots of useful information, but as you say, blonding isn't a strict guide. When you've pulled (and tasted







) lots of shots I think you'll start to trust that visual judgement, but when you're learning, stick to the numbers.


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

Thanks chaps. Just another (OT) quick question:

Should the crema exhibit the same taste characteristics as the liquid? I find the liquid too hot to drink for at least a minute but the crema temp is ok but I'm finding the taste incredibly sharp most of the time - the sink does a roaring trade in naff espresso.....

Al


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

That is a good observation. I believe James Hoffman and others have raised this same question and has led some to start removing or at least stirring in the crema from their espresso.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

Glad I'm not the only one having trouble with lusty, everyone said it was easy !


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

I would have to remove the drip tray to use scales, the classic has barely any room, can't get 99% of cups underneath, though I'm still on the normal portafilter


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

brun said:


> Glad I'm not the only one having trouble with lusty, everyone said it was easy !


No mate, nobody said that. You said you were looking for easy beans. There's no such thing


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## Pedro083 (Nov 16, 2011)

do your scales have a zero function if so just zero(or tare) the glass before hand or if you have a spare use that to set the scales. Have the same problem with my classic.


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

Pedro083 said:


> <snip>... just zero(or tare) the glass before hand or if you have a spare use that to set the scales.</snip>


That's what I've been doing *Pedro083* but I'm using a naked portafilter so there's plenty room for the glass and scales on the drip tray of the Classic.

Al


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## Pedro083 (Nov 16, 2011)

onemac said:


> That's what I've been doing *Pedro083* but I'm using a naked portafilter so there's plenty room for the glass and scales on the drip tray of the Classic.
> 
> Al


I have not yet succumbed to a naked portafilter but is only really a matter of time as I have bloody bought everything else I see so far for my classic. Might just go look for one just now


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

Update:

Stuck the scales on the drip tray and got my first gusher in a few weeks. Typical.

So, following Mike's advice I've been trying with 14g of grounds to get 21g of....... liquid. The scales have a definite lag which makes for interesting timings but I am hitting 21g at around 25 to 30 seconds. The good news is I've lost the sharp taste - the bad is I can now taste bitterness.

15g of grounds seems too overpowering in taste so I'm off to try grinding finer and tamping lighter and if that doesn't work then it's a more coarse grind and heavier tamp. Yes, I've been at this for about 4 hours so far........

Al


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

If it tastes bitter try coarsening the grind slightly keeping the weights the same.

There is a very good and easy to follow troubleshooting guide here by Jim Schulman:

http://www.home-barista.com/tips/espresso-101-how-to-adjust-dose-and-grind-setting-by-taste-t16968.html#wrap


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

Seems to me everything needs to be spot on with this or its not quite right, if one parameter is even slightly out you end up with a shot that just isn't right


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

That guide is pretty good, think ill print that out


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

Do you definitely actually like the taste of espresso? I'm being facetious but it's perhaps not be an entirely stupid question. There's plenty of people that like coffee, but only once it's been diluted by a gallon of milk, a tablespoon of sugar and a slug of syrup.

This goes the other way too. I know people that have said they don't like coffee because it's associated with Kenco granules or over steeped, mega-bitter, cafetierre ditch water. A well made brew can change their mind.

Of course there are also those that have convinced themselves they like coffee through some kind of zeitgeist chasing douche-baggery. "I only drink flat whites since they've been trending on Twitter."

I forget what my point is, or how any of this might relate to the post. Sorry.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

I'm an americano drinker at the mo but I've never really tried espresso ! No sugar for me and I find most people don't like it as strong as I do so I think its likely ill end up an espresso drinker


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Earlepap said:


> I forget what my point is, or how any of this might relate to the post. Sorry.


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

I don't bother any more but when I started I used to weigh the beans (more or less) and then time my shots. But I do it all by eye now. Tiny adjustments in grind, tamp etc depending on individual charactaristics. Best way is by taste. Sometimes you do everything technically perfectly but just allowing, for example, an extra 3 or 4 seconds of water through may balance the coffee out. Or dialling down the grind a little. With experience you just do it automatically. I definitely benefitted from buying a lot of light roast beans which needed more work to get right but once I worked them out, it was easy.

I think eveyone has their own method. Some weigh the coffee coming out, some judge by colour, others time the extraction. In the end, you just have to find your own style that produces good shots.


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

I am very happy with my coffee, been maintaining a very consistent approach to preparation for a long time with minor adjustments for bean changes. The only time I have an issue is with a bean that I have not tried and it might take a couple of shots to get it dialled in.


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## Jugglestruck (Nov 17, 2011)

I normally pull a 34g shot from 17g coffee grounds but this morning, feeling a bit macho and bowing to popular suggestion, I went for a 25g shot.

By the time I manged to sit down after pulling the shot, the drink being so miniscule, had in fact completely evaporated.

So I pulled another and looked with mocking disdain at the dribble in the bottom of my cup. To my total amazement this was utterly delicious, sweet and syrupy. I can still, 8 hours later, almost taste it.......

Thanks all.


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

*@Earlepap* - I've been accused before of not having a taste for espresso but all I can say is I love the stuff.

So, I was in the middle of dialling in the Lusty this morning and there was a knock at the door. The postie(ess) was delivering a parcel but she sniffed the air and asked if we were selling the house due to the smell of coffee. I told her of my obsession so she invited herself in to try a cup (we're good friends really). I brewed a shot and steamed some milk (no latte art) and she left a happy chappess. Apparently I should open an espresso bar









Al

PS - shots today were better but still bitter. I'm not sure Lusty Glaze is the bean for me but I shall continue my quest until I find one I like. This may take some time.......


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## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

onemac said:


> *@Earlepap* - I've been accused before of not having a taste for espresso but all I can say is I love the stuff.
> 
> So, I was in the middle of dialling in the Lusty this morning and there was a knock at the door. The postie(ess) was delivering a parcel but she sniffed the air and asked if we were selling the house due to the smell of coffee. I told her of my obsession so she invited herself in to try a cup (we're good friends really). I brewed a shot and steamed some milk (no latte art) and she left a happy chappess. Apparently I should open an espresso bar
> 
> ...


Necafe advert anyone !! Could this be the start of coffee forums first soap opera


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## Jugglestruck (Nov 17, 2011)

Talking of aftertastes......yesterday I was working at the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama in Cardiff and homed in on their very smart and new restaurant where they had a shiny La Spaziale machine looking like a futuristic space ship. I have no idea if these are meant to be good but it certainly looked the part.

I almost cancelled my espresso half way through as I watched this cheery 18 year old girl try her best to come to terms with it, in vain I add, as I watched the coffee overflow the cup. Not phased she just tipped it into another.

I only drank a sip but it left a nasty taste in my mouth all day long. What a waste of a machine.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

onemac said:


> *@Earlepap* - I've been accused before of not having a taste for espresso but all I can say is I love the stuff.
> 
> So, I was in the middle of dialling in the Lusty this morning and there was a knock at the door. The postie(ess) was delivering a parcel but she sniffed the air and asked if we were selling the house due to the smell of coffee. I told her of my obsession so she invited herself in to try a cup (we're good friends really). I brewed a shot and steamed some milk (no latte art) and she left a happy chappess. Apparently I should open an espresso bar
> 
> ...


Ha.

How long is the pour now? Try coarsening the grind a bit further whilst maintaining the same weight of ground coffee and liquid espresso produced - this will make the pour slightly shorter.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

Have you tried pulling the shot onto scales yet


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm pulling the shots onto the scales trying for 21g from 14g of grounds. Timings are around 26-30 seconds but when I ground more coarse this changed to 21 seconds. Tried tamping harder but little difference in timings.

Al


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

I wasn't trying to rattle any cages, so I hope I havent. Straight espresso isn't my favourite type of coffee and I'm yet to consistently pull decent shots - reckon 1/5 I make are nice at the most. I was just thinking out loud, and then through my fingers onto the internet.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

onemac said:


> I'm pulling the shots onto the scales trying for 21g from 14g of grounds. Timings are around 26-30 seconds but when I ground more coarse this changed to 21 seconds. Tried tamping harder but little difference in timings.
> 
> Al


That sounds good Al - I have not tried Lusty Glaze yet myself but from what I have heard and from your own experiences I would suspect that it would like much shorter pour time than 30 seconds. Don't worry too much about the timings - I usually use them just to get into the right ballpark and then adjust so that it tastes right. By the time I am finished dialling in the beans, the timings can often be outside the 25-30 second guideline. The important thing is how it tastes and then adjust based upon that.


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

Earlepap said:


> I wasn't trying to rattle any cages, so I hope I havent.


Nope - well, not mine anyway. Just thought I'd mention the fact that you're not the only one to comment on my liking for espresso











Earlepap said:


> Straight espresso isn't my favourite type of coffee and I'm yet to consistently pull decent shots - reckon 1/5 I make are nice at the most.


Love straight espresso - it's just the best. Like you though, my percentages on pulling decent shots are pretty low - in fact I don't really know if I'm actually improving the shot or my taste buds have been hammered by what has already been consumed. Good thing for me I like flat whites (that's what I call espresso in steamed milk, sod the official ratios...), it's somewhere to throw the better shots of the day other than down the sink.



Earlepap said:


> I was just thinking out loud, and then through my fingers onto the internet.


Please continue - some of the best hints and tips I've received to date have been throw-away remarks.

*@jimbow* - I do notice grinding inconsistencies based on the weight of beans in the MC2 hopper so I've bagged up some stale beans to throw on top of the fresh ones which are topped up to the same level each time I grind. It's an awful faff at this stage, especially with weighing grounds and liquids as well. Probably my most cost-effective purchase to date those scales







Meanwhile the quest continues......

Al


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## lucky13 (Dec 30, 2011)

Just from this thread alone I've.made great strides forward.

I've gone from shot glasses to weighing extractions.

I've always weighed the beans pre grind (ive settled for 15g)

My journey of extraction volume went as follows

2 x 1oz shot glass to 30g extraction to 25g extraction to 22g extraction.

The taste improvements each time were brilliant.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

tons of tips in this thread as mentioned, keep all the comments coming please


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

David Schomer's book: Espresso Coffee Professional Techniques (buy here) helped me immeasurably.

If anything the book instilled upon me how essential it is to control every parameter. This allows you to adjust one at a time to constructively analyse the resulting shot.

The biggest factors that I found that effect my shots are grind size and temperature. This assumes dosing, distributing and tamping are all at least consistent if not spot on.

If your extractions are at a good time and good weight but still don't taste quite right then you may have reached the limit of your machine i.e. lack of temperature stability.

I bought a PID to confirm my suspicions.

In one word...Consistency.


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