# Getting Different Ouputs on my Dual Boiler



## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

I am using an 18g VST basket and am grinding with a Baratza Forte AP, I am grinding 21g in setting the menu for 2 shots, pre-infusion to 8 secs and temp to 94 degrees, so I press the 2 shot button and I stop it at 42g which takes around 34 secs, the shot tastes excellent.

So next time I grind the same weight 21g and instead of programming the 2 shot, I just press the 2 shot button and blow me 50g of coffee comes out and that's stopping it at 31 secs.

I cannot work out why I am getting such differing weights out when everything is the same going in, I am using Workshop beans only 2 weeks old, tamping the same, the same weight in and yet such a difference out, has anyone else experienced this and can anyone come up with reasons as to why I am getting such differing weights out, it is baffling me to the point of distraction, so can anyone please help.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

1. Why are you putting 21g in an 18 g basket ?

2. Stop a sot by weight not time , taste . Enjoy. If taste no good , then adjust . Time is arbitrary to the drink, the taste is a relationship between coffee used and water in it.

Different weight , down to prep, presume you don't have naked pf, to understand whats going on under the spouts?

Its nothing the machine is doing, the variance is coming from man and grinder. If your single dosing the variance could be this .


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

are the buttons programmed equally? It sounds like a Sage where you can set different flow amounts for each button function. Forget them and use the manual pour, even though that might sound a little alien. You weigh in, so weigh out, as suggested. 21 in an 18 gm vst is fine as I often do that


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> 1. Why are you putting 21g in an 18 g basket ?
> 
> 2. Stop a sot by weight not time , taste . Enjoy. If taste no good , then adjust . Time is arbitrary to the drink, the taste is a relationship between coffee used and water in it.
> 
> ...


Putting 21g into an 18g basket is fine it tamps below what the razor tool wants, I do not use the razor tool, I just use it as reference to make sure I not overfilling the basket.


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> are the buttons programmed equally? It sounds like a Sage where you can set different flow amounts for each button function. Forget them and use the manual pour, even though that might sound a little alien. You weigh in, so weigh out, as suggested. 21 in an 18 gm vst is fine as I often do that


Are the buttons programmed equally, not too sure what you mean by that, I am still finding my way round the DB.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

put an empty glass under, then measure the output for a single button then a double. they are a gimmick mate. The only accurate way is to weigh in and out, removing all the guesswork by using the manual button


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Sage traditionally teach people not to weigh in and overfill, but that is to make up for their own grinders inabilities! Try dropping your doe down to 18 gms, same ratio.....you may be surprised at the difference in taste


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> put an empty glass under, then measure the output for a single button then a double. they are a gimmick mate. The only accurate way is to weigh in and out, removing all the guesswork by using the manual button


Have done this and it is producing the correct amounts, will stick to the manual method.

Not sure if you have seen this, https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?34666-Sage-DB-is-this-acceptable/page3 adds another layer to the DB.


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> Sage traditionally teach people not to weigh in and overfill, but that is to make up for their own grinders inabilities! Try dropping your doe down to 18 gms, same ratio.....you may be surprised at the difference in taste


Using a Baratza Forte AP grinder much better than a Sage Grinder Pro.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

mark8805 said:


> Have done this and it is producing the correct amounts, will stick to the manual method.
> 
> Not sure if you have seen this, https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?34666-Sage-DB-is-this-acceptable/page3 adds another layer to the DB.


I am aware as that was my own thread matey! Do as the venerable Gary suggests and it adds a while new dimension


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> I am aware as that was my own thread matey! Do as the venerable Gary suggests and it adds a while new dimension


Will definitely try this evening when I crank the DB up again this evening.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

mark8805 said:


> Using a Baratza Forte AP grinder much better than a Sage Grinder Pro.


I know it is, but the point I was making is that a very high% of Sage owners are total idiots...but in the hands of a coffee enthusiast you can make a really good cuppa. the white gloves if you have had it teaches you to overfill and not measure anything....why is that? the Sage will pair with a top end grinder but even so, I think unless you have really odd taste buds, and do not forget, taste is king and may often take you down avenues you had not thought of, drop the dose down.....you can always notch it back up. Your preinfusion will change as there is more space for water on the puck


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

mark8805 said:


> I am using an 18g VST basket and am grinding with a Baratza Forte AP, I am grinding 21g in setting the menu for 2 shots, pre-infusion to 8 secs and temp to 94 degrees, so I press the 2 shot button and I stop it at 42g which takes around 34 secs, the shot tastes excellent.
> 
> So next time I grind the same weight 21g and instead of programming the 2 shot, I just press the 2 shot button and blow me 50g of coffee comes out and that's stopping it at 31 secs.
> 
> I cannot work out why I am getting such differing weights out when everything is the same going in, I am using Workshop beans only 2 weeks old, tamping the same, the same weight in and yet such a difference out, has anyone else experienced this and can anyone come up with reasons as to why I am getting such differing weights out, it is baffling me to the point of distraction, so can anyone please help.


Read all the replies with interest and I don't know other people are misunderstanding you, or I am. My understanding of what you are saying is this precisely: Everything is the same, same button, same programming for that button, so it ALWAYS does preinfusion to 8 secs for the same programmed amount.

There are 2 differences only

1. It's the second grind not the first

2. Instead of stopping the shot, you let it complete to it's programmed volume

In the first shot when you stop it at 42g, it takes 34 seconds (and shot tastes excellent which is irrelevant to the problem really). For the second shot, all that is different is you let it run to programmed completion of shot volume....and it's stops at 31s with 50g

*You are left wondering why your getting 50g in 31s, when before you only got 42g in 34 seconds....would I be correct?* This also means that if you had manually stopped the shot, then you wouldn't have got close to 34seconds in the second example.

What I am totally unclear about is:



> I am using an 18g VST basket and am grinding with a Baratza Forte AP, I am grinding 21g in setting the menu for 2 shots, pre-infusion to 8 secs and temp to 94 degrees, so I press the 2 shot button and I stop it at 42g which takes around 34 secs, the shot tastes excellent. So next time I grind the same weight 21g


 *If you do the same thing as before, what happens, because then the only thing that changes is it's the second grind not the first?*



*
* It would seem to me that the answer to that, would lead you down 2 paths:

1. Either the grinder is inconsistent

2. Or the programming you did is not persistent in some way you believe it to be


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> Read all the replies with interest and I don't know other people are misunderstanding you, or I am. My understanding of what you are saying is this precisely: Everything is the same, same button, same programming for that button, so it ALWAYS does preinfusion to 8 secs for the same programmed amount.
> 
> There are 2 differences only
> 
> ...


I was lead to believe that you could program the 2 button shot by going into the menu till you get the 2 shot flashing, press the 2 button and wait until you get the desired volume out, in my case I stopped the two button at 42g which took 34secs, now I again was lead to believe that the 2 button is programmed for the time the last shot was timed at, in my case it was 34 secs.

I therefore assumed that if everything was the same for the next shot and I now press the 2 button it should run for the 34 secs that the previous shot took and I should get the same volume out ie. 42g maybe my thinking is wrong.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

mark8805 said:


> I was lead to believe that you could program the 2 button shot by going into the menu till you get the 2 shot flashing, press the 2 button and wait until you get the desired volume out, in my case I stopped the two button at 42g which took 34secs, now I again was lead to believe that the 2 button is programmed for the time the last shot was timed at, in my case it was 34 secs.
> 
> I therefore assumed that if everything was the same for the next shot and I now press the 2 button it should run for the 34 secs that the previous shot took and I should get the same volume out ie. 42g maybe my thinking is wrong.


Easily confirmed, just do exactly the same thing twice in a row and you will know 100% for sure


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> Easily confirmed, just do exactly the same thing twice in a row and you will know 100% for sure


This is where my problems arise, my second shot was programmed as the first shot, same weight in, same grind, same tamp, at 31 secs my scale was reading 50g so I stopped it at 31 secs, if I had let it go to 34 secs as the the first shot was programmed then it would have probably got upto 55g or more when my first shot was stopped at 42g at 34 secs, all I want is consistency so will have try different methods as above.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I meant do exactly the same thing twice (not the same thing in 2 different ways)!


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> I meant do exactly the same thing twice (not the same thing in 2 different ways)!


I did the same thing twice except that I stopped the second shot at 31 secs as it was way past the first shot in volume, this is what I want it to do, produce shot after shot at the same weight and time, consensus seems to be do it manually every time.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

mark8805 said:


> I did the same thing twice except that I stopped the second shot at 31 secs as it was way past the first shot in volume, this is what I want it to do, produce shot after shot at the same weight and time, consensus seems to be do it manually every time.


If you are doing the same thing twice in a row...then with such differences... your investigations need to centre around the grinder.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> If you are doing the same thing twice in a row...then with such differences... your investigations need to centre around the grinder.


Or its the man In between


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I wouldn't rule out channeling etc given the fairly big ovet dose on the basket (razor or not)


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It wouldn't surprise me if a vst basket needs more that it's quoted capacity even ignoring bean weight variations. Sage use a higher fill level than most machines with this diameter filter basket. For instance I am using a 12g basket in mine - weights in come out at 14 odd grams up to just under 16g with some beans. That's a Fracino basket which going on other makes is pretty typical. A Rancilio 12g for instance needs a bit more. Actually I would love to find a make that uses the same fill level. I don't think it exists.

I really liked the razor tool on my BE and found it useful. Not on the DB though. I reckon it can set too low and too far out to be of much use.

You may have the machine set to volume rather than time. The option is in the menu obtained via powering up with a finger also on the 1 cup button. I've kept mine set on time. I'm assuming you are using the buttons to pull shots. I'll try volume at some point as I am getting the impression that it's better than time - if it works well.

It's possible to get all sorts of problems with the wrong fill level in the basket or tamping being all over the place. Currently I mostly drink 14.8g in and 40 out in 30 secs. I get less than 10% variation in output. But - Grinder - I'm finding that needs adjusting more often than a certain other make I have used but that probably relates to the beans I am using.

John

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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Out of interest how much time passed between your first shot and second shot?

I find grind can vary a fair bit depending on temperature and humidity etc. within a day.

Again, don't know if it's the case but if you changed the setting on the grind before the first shot, it's possible that you had a mixture of grind sizes and your second shot was actually the one showing the full effect of whatever the previous change of grind setting was. As it takes a while to clear out the previous grinds from the path - at least for some grinders.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The whole point of VST is precision and he tolerance isnplus of minus 1g so 21g in an 18 VST is 2 g over. Have you tried grinding finer and keeping within the recommended tolerances. Particle size on the grinder is affect by weight of beans! Are you running it with a full hopper or are you single dosing? Even small variances in weight especially if you have a small

Amount of beans in thenhopper will affect the pours.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

coffeechap said:


> The whole point of VST is precision and he tolerance isnplus of minus 1g so 21g in an 18 VST is 2 g over. Have you tried grinding finer and keeping within the recommended tolerances. Particle size on the grinder is affect by weight of beans! Are you running it with a full hopper or are you single dosing? Even small variances in weight especially if you have a small
> 
> Amount of beans in thenhopper will affect the pours.


Surely that's all assuming the machine you're using the VST basket on has a similar showerscreen height as an e61 group.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ancedotally the VST and stock Sage baskets are meant to be pretty similar , i doubt that the Sge DB needs overdosing just because its a Sage DB..

To sum up, overdosing a basket by 3g ( if it is a 18g basket ) is gonna lead to potential channeling and inconsistencies.

In this story it's probabky a little bit of everything. If single dosing that wont help. If over dosing that wont help. Then there is the man in the middle ( distribution and tamping )

I know the Sage DV has volumetric features and buttons , but they are a but shit tbh, They are on the Oracle i had.

If you want consistency , weigh in , weigh out, kill your shot by weight , taste, adjust .


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

ashcroc said:


> Surely that's all assuming the machine you're using the VST basket on has a similar showerscreen height as an e61 group.


No as levers do not have an e61 group or shower screen, variances May occur between machines, I am only stating the tolerances that are recommended by VST! Personally I have tried all manner of doses in the VST baskets over a wide range of machines and I get the best results within the tolerances. That said if you are getting tasty coffee outside of those parameters keeps doing what you are doing


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

coffeechap said:


> No as levers do not have an e61 group or shower screen, variances May occur between machines, I am only stating the tolerances that are recommended by VST! Personally I have tried all manner of doses in the VST baskets over a wide range of machines and I get the best results within the tolerances. That said if you are getting tasty coffee outside of those parameters keeps doing what you are doing


Thanks for clarifying. I suppose I should have known the volume of coffee would have much more of an impact than headspace from using a single but it only just dawned on me after reading your post.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I think this thread is significant to this area

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?45188-Pucks-sticking-to-the-shower-screen-on-a-DB

It's possible to get over all heights of various baskets and within reason that can give an idea of capacity unless there is a significant shape change. It's not unusual to see the usual E61 basket sized machine being tamped and the tamper finishing up level with the top of the basket - or even lower at a local coffee shop. Good luck if a shot for the DB is like that.

What I found tough on the DB was using my normal puckology which works fine on 2 other machines, it didn't. Low fills can look like the puck is hitting the shower screen, taste etc very variable. Not much of a problem really but IMHO needs sorting out via how much goes in to get consistency.

My 40ml goes into a 12oz plus long black. I think I would be hard pressed to detect a change in taste with 10% variation on shots for that. 30 out very definitely and oddly 50 out less so but it's there. I actually usually get 38 to 40 out for a while but that changes at times and needs a really tiny tweak to the Mazzer to correct - well under 1 notch.

John

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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Getting back on topic, if all variables remain constant, and two identical shots give two different results, it must be the grinder. Did you confirm if you run with beans in the hopper or not?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Getting back on topic, if all variables remain constant, and two identical shots give two different results, it must be the grinder. Did you confirm if you run with beans in the hopper or not?


Or the barista .....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Or the barista .....


Does barista mean barista by definition, making it unlikely, or operative!


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

jlarkin said:


> Out of interest how much time passed between your first shot and second shot?
> 
> I find grind can vary a fair bit depending on temperature and humidity etc. within a day.
> 
> Again, don't know if it's the case but if you changed the setting on the grind before the first shot, it's possible that you had a mixture of grind sizes and your second shot was actually the one showing the full effect of whatever the previous change of grind setting was. As it takes a while to clear out the previous grinds from the path - at least for some grinders.


I use it at 7 at night and 10 the next morning.


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> The whole point of VST is precision and he tolerance isnplus of minus 1g so 21g in an 18 VST is 2 g over. Have you tried grinding finer and keeping within the recommended tolerances. Particle size on the grinder is affect by weight of beans! Are you running it with a full hopper or are you single dosing? Even small variances in weight especially if you have a small
> 
> Amount of beans in thenhopper will affect the pours.


I can get a good shot using it manually no matter what basket I use, in the instructions it says use 19-21g and having spoken to Sage they advised me to get an 18g VST basket and put 21g in it.


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> Getting back on topic, if all variables remain constant, and two identical shots give two different results, it must be the grinder. Did you confirm if you run with beans in the hopper or not?


I do run with the hopper half full.


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Or the barista .....


You are probably right!!!


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

Thanks for all your answers, I have come to the conclusion that I will pull a shot using the manual button, using weight in weight out, unless I find a definitive way of using the machine in a different way.

Incidentally, the tamp is the same for every shot as I use EazyTamp which gives you the same tamp pressure every time, the weight coming out of the Baratza Forte AP is constant as it uses a time based grind and the scales I am using are accurate as they are the Acaia scale the mega expensive one, having read lots of threads on here no 2 machines are the same, no 2 users are the same, and if this hobby was easy then there would not be all these Posts on various parts of the operation.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

For what it's worth, it's the same situation with my La Spaz. It has a volumetric function but can vary widely between shots. You can program it for an output volume based on water going through the flow meter on the water inlet side. It takes no account of dose, grind, type of coffee, tamp. As soon as you change anything even by a small amount, the output volume changes. It's just not accurate enough. OK for cafes banging them out to customers who probably won't notice. Stick to weighing in and out.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

i've never liked volumetrics on espresso machines....as said above...too variable.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

lake_m said:


> For what it's worth, it's the same situation with my La Spaz. It has a volumetric function but can vary widely between shots. You can program it for an output volume based on water going through the flow meter on the water inlet side. It takes no account of dose, grind, type of coffee, tamp. As soon as you change anything even by a small amount, the output volume changes. It's just not accurate enough. OK for cafes banging them out to customers who probably won't notice. Stick to weighing in and out.


The flow meters on say a Linea PB or NS are going to be way more accurate than the Sage of La Spaz.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> The flow meters on say a Linea PB or NS are going to be way more accurate than the Sage of La Spaz.


You're probably right reference quality/price of machines.

But measuring water volume on the inlet will always result in inconsistencies in the output.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> The flow meters on say a Linea PB or NS are going to be way more accurate than the Sage of La Spaz.


Are those fitted with rotary pumps?

John

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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

mark8805 said:


> I can get a good shot using it manually no matter what basket I use, in the instructions it says use 19-21g and having spoken to Sage they advised me to get an 18g VST basket and put 21g in it.


The company that make the VST baskets recommend +/- 1g and have done a ton of research into it. I'd ignore Sage on this one, I don't get the impression they're necessarily as in the know as they could be - albeit they have a good machine they brand up from Breville.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I watched this video just know at around 30 seconds in he starts describing the brew water path through the machine. Interestingly it goes through the flow meter...then through the expansion valve (OPV), then to the boiler. The other path he doesn't describe fully is where the excess from the expansion valve gets taken back to the water tank.






This means the flow meter measures the flow from the pump....then an unknown amount is discarded back to the tank, to keep brew pressure at whatever is set. This discarded amount will be less or more depending on the resistance at the group (e.g. the coffee). Does anyone see the problem here?

I have looked at inner workings photos, but not many detailed enough and I can see one flowmeter on the cold side, before what is the expansion valve which aligns with his diagram (if it isis accurate and not too simplified..). His water return path does show an unidentified circle, perhaps it's a second flow meter, I don't know? Perhaps it measures the flow from the expansion valve and some calculation is done...again I don't know. It wouldn't be great if it did that, because it's over complicated and would mean lowering pressure as some try to do, might mess with things a bit...it would depend on what they are trying to do.

So I am a little unclear on what flow they are measuring, but it might just be pump output, rather than water through the coffee....if so, it would make for a variable result, depending on coffee, empty group, channeling etc...?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I watched this video just know at around 30 seconds in he starts describing the brew water path through the machine. Interestingly it goes through the flow meter...then through the expansion valve (OPV), then to the boiler. The other path he doesn't describe fully is where the excess from the expansion valve gets taken back to the water tank.
> 
> This means the flow meter measures the flow from the pump....then an unknown amount is discarded back to the tank, to keep brew pressure at whatever is set. This discarded amount will be less or more depending on the resistance at the group (e.g. the coffee). Does anyone see the problem here?
> 
> ...


The Perger video? Each shot has a beverage weight, so they must have been weighed.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MWJB said:


> The Perger video? Each shot has a beverage weight, so they must have been weighed.


No the Sage video I initially forgot to put in the post









I started to watch the Perger one....but felt like I was going to die part way through...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I'll be inside mine eventually and will see where the flow meter sits. My impression on the BE is that it helps but







as I was getting consistent shots I didn't realise that it seems to use one until later - shortly before buying the DB. Also people don't seem to believe that I work on just taste. For what I usually drink the double shot button was just about perfect at it's default setting when grind and fill level were sorted out - but it didn't give 60ml out. Much less. Talking to Sage they don't expect the OPV to open in normal use but I found that was more or less essential with the single basket.

Measuring the brew pressure on the BE proved interesting. Slight leak from the lash up I used - helped as it got air out of the system - but guess what, the OPV didn't open. By that I mean that the guage went way past the reading it normally gives when it does open so can only assume it didn't open.

John

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Much less. Talking to Sage they don't expect the OPV to open in normal use but I found that was more or less essential with the single basket.
> 
> Measuring the brew pressure on the BE proved interesting. Slight leak from the lash up I used - helped as it got air out of the system - but guess what, the OPV didn't open. By that I mean that the guage went way past the reading it normally gives when it does open so can only assume it didn't open.
> 
> ...


I assume for brewing the sage uses a standard 15 bar ULKA pump or similar 15 - 18 bar pump. If so the expansion valve sort of has to open....otherwise the machine is just running unregulated. There are a few reasons why it's possible for the gauge (presumably portafilter based) to read higher, but in general I wouldn't expect a huge difference.

https://www.ecookshop.co.uk/ecookshop/product.asp?pid=BES920UK

In this advert they state OPV valve to keep max extraction pressure at 9 bar..., then a few lines down 15 bar italian made pump. So unless they have discovered matter transportation, they must be venting excess water via the expansion valve to control pressure.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Might be a misunderstanding. I haven't measured the brew pressure on the DB as I assume the gauge on it is correct - the manual also talks about brewing at 9 bar with the OPV opening.

The BE is different. The gauge isn't calibrated in bar and they suggest brewing with the needle going to 12 o'clock which is at around 9 bar. The OPV opens at just short/close to 15 bar. It went well over that. I only have shots of it going nearly a bar over. Worried about busting something. Initially I thought it was trapped air expanding but that doesn't make much sense as the OPV should still have vented it. Also a bit of a leak so water was running out at the connection to the gauge. Maybe the flow through the OPV caused the pressure to increase but that would have put a lot of water into the drip tray. It vents there. I didn't notice anything unusual in that area but was most interested in what the marks on the gauge were in bar.

I wont be looking at how things are connected in the BE. The back would have to come off and it's still under warrantee. I have some unpleasant real plumbing to do shortly. Once that is out of the way I can see if things are visible in the DB. I do want to check the internals of this one periodically - I have come across a number of faults that can crop up. Best thing to do with leaks is to spot them early. There are others that crop up though and I'd like some idea of how easy they are to get at and fix.

2nd one bottom left is where the OPV usually opens

John

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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

After my original post, thanks for all your posts, have been thinking that if you have to pull a Double Shot manually every time what is the point of having a Dual Boiler if you can't pull a double shot and heat the milk at the same time, maybe people can, just me, the user, being hopeless!!!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

mark8805 said:


> After my original post, thanks for all your posts, have been thinking that if you have to pull a Double Shot manually every time what is the point of having a Dual Boiler if you can't pull a double shot and heat the milk at the same time, maybe people can, just me, the user, being hopeless!!!


Can you explain further about not being able to pull a shot and steam at the same time. That is one of the points of a dual boiler. the only time this might happen is when starting from cold. the PiD will show 93 for the brew boiler but the steam boiler will be a little behind. If you are struggling, either explain in full or make a video...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mark8805 said:


> After my original post, thanks for all your posts, have been thinking that if you have to pull a Double Shot manually every time what is the point of having a Dual Boiler if you can't pull a double shot and heat the milk at the same time, maybe people can, just me, the user, being hopeless!!!


Course you can , you can watch scales and press a button while you are steaming milk. Is your volume of drinks so high that you need that extra 30 seconds to steam the milk before moving onto the next one. Just chill, cup on scales press bottom , wait 30 seconds ish , steam milk, enjoy drink.....


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

mark8805 said:


> After my original post, thanks for all your posts, have been thinking that if you have to pull a Double Shot manually every time what is the point of having a Dual Boiler if you can't pull a double shot and heat the milk at the same time, maybe people can, just me, the user, being hopeless!!!


Depending on the size of drink you make there could be a need for a larger milk jug. We make 12oz / 360ml + drinks here and the Sage jug does seem to manage that without any problems but 2 of them really needs a larger jug. Latte art probably gets a bit trickier but the fancy aspect is added after the actual milk has gone in. I don't bother with that and tend to heat the milk more which results in stiffer foam anyway. A larger jug may help anyway as more surface area for foam.

We were doing 2 drinks at a time like that on a Barista Express - the DB has more steam power.

John

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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> Can you explain further about not being able to pull a shot and steam at the same time. That is one of the points of a dual boiler. the only time this might happen is when starting from cold. the PiD will show 93 for the brew boiler but the steam boiler will be a little behind. If you are struggling, either explain in full or make a video...


If you are pulling a shot manually, you are watching the scales, and not watching the milk stretching properly or the temperature of the milk, I am a relatively new user so perhaps I have not mastered the technique yet


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

ajohn said:


> Depending on the size of drink you make there could be a need for a larger milk jug. We make 12oz / 360ml + drinks here and the Sage jug does seem to manage that without any problems but 2 of them really needs a larger jug. Latte art probably gets a bit trickier but the fancy aspect is added after the actual milk has gone in. I don't bother with that and tend to heat the milk more which results in stiffer foam anyway. A larger jug may help anyway as more surface area for foam.
> 
> We were doing 2 drinks at a time like that on a Barista Express - the DB has more steam power.
> 
> ...


I use an Espro Toroid 12oz jug and it it is small but makes perfect milk, perhaps a larger jug may help.


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