# Bottomless Portafilter?



## EarwaxUK (Jan 19, 2014)

Hi guys

A quick bit of background. I've got a Gaggia Classic on which I've adjusted the OPV so I'm running 10 bar static pressure. My shots are OK, but not great, and lacking in consistency. I'm looking at refining my dosing, distribution and tamping technique and, along with weighing my output and I was wondering if a bottomless portafilter is worth the effort.

Obviously it looks pretty cool and is good for diagnosing uneven extractions but is it worth my investing? And, if so, any recommendations for a nice one?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

It improved my shots / technique massively. It shows up a whole multitude of sins

Happy Donkey ones are a good price new.


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## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

It certainly sounds like your going to be trying the right things to improve the shots. What coffee are you using?

I bought a bottomless pf off another forum member. This might sound odd but I've never actually considered if it had improved my shots. Mrs c_squared likes a large latte and I couldn't fit a big mug under the spouts. However, it has certainly helped refine my distribution and tamp and in turn my shots have improved.


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## EarwaxUK (Jan 19, 2014)

Thanks for the answers.

I've been looking around and found a few places that sell them. Happy Donkey are pretty good value too. Found a rather nice walnut handled one on eBay which is tempting me...

C_squared, the beans have been a bit of a journey. Started off with a big bag of Lavazza beans just to get dialled in but failed horribly because I'd not adjusted the OPV. I use Hasbean for most of my beans but I've got some from a local roaster in Winchester at the moment.

I'd really like to try loads of different beans but given how much variability there can be in the same beans depending on temperature and humidity, and how I've not really got everything all dialled in properly yet, the idea of wasting half of every bag of beans on dialling in is rather off-putting at the moment.


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## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

I found it really helpful to order a kilo of the same bean and not have to worry about dialling the grinder in for each different bean. I guess it just helped me focus on the grind, distribution, tamp and not feel like I was wasting anything. They do come up for sale on here from time to time. You could post a comment in the 'wanted' thread.


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## EarwaxUK (Jan 19, 2014)

That's not a bad idea. I've always bought 250g from Hasbean and I usually buy 2 or 3 at a time. Until now, they've always been used in filter so the age doesn't matter so much and I don't waste any.

I've got a couple of local roasters as well, one near Chichester and one in Winchester and they both do 1kg bags.

Do you weigh your shots?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Good advice on the kilo of beans of one variety.

I thought weighing dose and shots was a bit anal when I started out.

But I have to say it's the best way to get a bean dialled in. I'd definitely recommend it to get you in the right ball park.


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## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

I do indeed. Picked up some cheap 0.1g accuracy scales up off the bay. It's great for developing consistency as you can adjust your tamp pressure slightly to change the output. The thing with weighing input and output, it's just guidance, always go with what tastes good, a shot weighing spot on what you are after isn't necessarily the end goal, a great tasting shot is.


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## EarwaxUK (Jan 19, 2014)

Thanks for all the advice. I've got some scales ordered and I'll grab a bottomless filter.

Can't wait to get it all dialled in and consistent so I can pull a shot or two easily, rather than having to spend lots of time tweaking every time.


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## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

What grinder are you using and have you done any other mods to your classic?


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## EarwaxUK (Jan 19, 2014)

I made a pressure testing portafilter so I could get the OPV set right (I did the recommended 270 degrees and it was still gushing).

Today, I fitted a Silvia steam wand to replace the crappy plastic thing it came with. Has made a massive difference.

Next job is to look up temperature surfing.

My grinder is an Iberital MC2. Would love a Mazzer Mini but it was just too expensive. My next major upgrade will be to a better grinder, the Eureka Mignon looks tempting too. Going to be quite some time before I do that though!


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## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

Sounds like your well on the way. I have a gaggia classic too and have done all the same mods as you. Temperature surfing is really easy on the classic. Just run an oz or two of water through the group head. Wait for a bit, the brew light should turn off which means the boiler is on. Once the brew light turns on again (boiler off) you run the shot. I normally use the water I'm running off to heat my cup.


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## EarwaxUK (Jan 19, 2014)

That's easier than I'd figured it would be.

Like I said, I hope to have it all dialled in properly soon as the whole thing is a but hit and miss at the moment. I'm in the last few months of a PhD so I'm insanely busy at work which means I dont get much time to fiddle with it. I've had the Gaggia for 4 months or so now and it's taken me that long to get started. I really want to be able to run off a shot or two easily whenever I want.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I use the same temp surf routine and it works for me. I think I'm trying to reduce the amount of faff involved, rather than adding to it.


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## EarwaxUK (Jan 19, 2014)

Quick update: BPF arrived!

I have one quick question for you. It came with a triple basket but I was going to continue using my standard Gaggia double basket, however this leaves a gap at the bottom. Assuming a clean extraction (no spraying), does this matter? Or would I be better using a small dose in the triple basket?

Picture illustrates the gap: triple basket on the left, double on the right...

View attachment 5345


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## GS11 (Feb 20, 2013)

You will be fine using the gaggia standard basket:good:


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## EarwaxUK (Jan 19, 2014)

Thanks very much


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Doesn't matter at all


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Baskets are manufactured to accept a given dose +or- a gram or two. Idealy you require a small gap between the top of the puck and the shower screen.

Use wichever basket you prefer but dose to suit basket size. The space beyond the bottom of the basket in a naked PF does not matter.


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## EarwaxUK (Jan 19, 2014)

El carajillo said:


> Baskets are manufactured to accept a given dose +or- a gram or two. Idealy you require a small gap between the top of the puck and the shower screen.
> 
> Use wichever basket you prefer but dose to suit basket size. The space beyond the bottom of the basket in a naked PF does not matter.


This is turning out to be something of a problem. According to Gaggia the standard "double" basket is 14g which is nowhere near enough. I've been trying to dial in today with some Hasbean beans and started with 18g dose but I'm way off the line on the inside of the basket and it's just churning the top of the puck and choking the machine.

I've loosened the grind a bit on my MC2 and upped the dose to 20g and then 22g and I'm still way off the line on the basket and I'm still choking up.

So, do I loosen the grind further or increase the dose? Obviously if I keep increasing dose without loosening off the grind, the machine will just continue to choke but I'm not sure how far to loosen off.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Go for 16 g should fit in your standard basket ok . 20 -22 will be way too much .


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## EarwaxUK (Jan 19, 2014)

So should I be adjusting the grind to get a larger puck?

Currently, the top of the puck is probably only half way to the indicator line on the basket


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If your extraction is ok to start with , then as you dose more coffee then in generally you need to coarsen the grind to keep the extraction at the same ratio or time .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If you want to dose 20-22 you need a triple basket , one of the gaggia owners will be able to recommend which one to use .


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## EarwaxUK (Jan 19, 2014)

That's the problem, I'm not getting any extraction, I'm choking the machine.

I used a 16g dose, tamped into the double basket. It doesn't even half fill the basket and nothing came through it.

I'm assuming that this is because the grind is too fine - if I go coarser, will the puck get larger?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Go coarser to stop choking the machine , keep at 16 g , this amount shouldn't over fill you basket . Try and keep tamp pressure same


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## EarwaxUK (Jan 19, 2014)

I'll keep going coarser. Is it normal that you have to loosen off for fresher beans?

I am miles off where I was last weekend in terms of puck size and I know my tamp is constant thanks to the bathroom scales. Last weekend, 18g was giving me a puck up to the indicator line on the inside of the basket. Today, with newer beans but the same grind, I'm not even half way up it.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

General rule of thumb .

As beans age you will need to go finer yes.

if beans are stale then doubly so. .

are your new beans rested ?

If beans are a lighter roast then they need a finer grind , darker roasts need a coarser grind.


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## EarwaxUK (Jan 19, 2014)

OK, that makes sense. The beans I was using were probably just over 4 weeks from roasting, these are 8 days so they ought to be degassed by now. They're not inflating the bags either.

I'll wind the grinder out tomorrow and try again. As the particle size increases, the puck should get larger as well so fingers crossed that get's some liquid passing through the puck and a puck thicker than 7mm!


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Just to add that with lighter beans such as Hasbean can be innately acidic which is easy to mistake for sourness. A lot of the lighter beans need a finer grind to extract properly, however as long as you can tamp consistently for that particular bean whether its 30lbs or not is not important as a rule of thumb for finer grinds tamp lighter and for coarser tamp heavier. With a Classic , especially one that has had its OPV altered to deliver 9 BAR or is an older model with lower pressure anyway, you can quite easily choke the machine by tamping too hard whereas on a higher spec machine the weight of the tamp may make far less difference due to preinfusing. You can sort of mimic preinfusing on a Classic by opening the steam wand a bit and then flicking the pump on for a second then switching off and closing the wand, then leave it a few more seconds before starting to pull the shot. This will allow some water to soak the puck and let it swell a bit.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

EarwaxUK said:


> OK, that makes sense. The beans I was using were probably just over 4 weeks from roasting, these are 8 days so they ought to be degassed by now. They're not inflating the bags either.
> 
> I'll wind the grinder out tomorrow and try again. As the particle size increases, the puck should get larger as well so fingers crossed that get's some liquid passing through the puck and a puck thicker than 7mm!


Was it the same bean . If you don't mind me asking what were the two beans in question ?


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## EarwaxUK (Jan 19, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Was it the same bean . If you don't mind me asking what were the two beans in question ?


No, not the same beans. The first ones were Synergy blend from Winchester Coffee Roasters. The new ones are ][/font]Brazil Carmo Estate Yellow Bourbon Pulped Natural from Hasbean



Charliej said:


> Just to add that with lighter beans such as Hasbean can be innately acidic which is easy to mistake for sourness. A lot of the lighter beans need a finer grind to extract properly, however as long as you can tamp consistently for that particular bean whether its 30lbs or not is not important as a rule of thumb for finer grinds tamp lighter and for coarser tamp heavier. With a Classic , especially one that has had its OPV altered to deliver 9 BAR or is an older model with lower pressure anyway, you can quite easily choke the machine by tamping too hard whereas on a higher spec machine the weight of the tamp may make far less difference due to preinfusing. You can sort of mimic preinfusing on a Classic by opening the steam wand a bit and then flicking the pump on for a second then switching off and closing the wand, then leave it a few more seconds before starting to pull the shot. This will allow some water to soak the puck and let it swell a bit.


I'll keep an eye out for the acidity - at the moment I've got no coffee to drink at all









I'm going to loosen up the grind progressively and see what happens. I'm trying to brew by output weight for the first time as well so I've high hopes!


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## EarwaxUK (Jan 19, 2014)

Morning all (just)

Quick update: thanks everyone for all your help. Had another go dialling in this morning and I've finally got there. Danced around a brew ratio of 1.6 for a couple of extractions, the first being under extracted and the second being over but I've got there now. With the beans I'm using at the moment, it's quite a fine window but it's quite obvious by taste.

It's been quite a learning experience so far but I'm over the moon about getting it right. I'm looking forward to learning a lot more!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Excellent well done, as you will form different beans from light to dark will have require different grinds for extraction . Weighing is a good guide to help you , but be guided by taste too. It's a learning curve everyone goes through. Once you have it nailed you can start to look at pulling say a ristretto ( 16 g in 16-18 out ) and seeing if you like the taste of that .

Also some beans will taste better with a bigger ration too, all good fun. Glad you getting coffee you like.


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