# Looking to upgrade - R58 vs Cellini/Giotto



## RazorliteX

Hi all,

Having had a Rancilio (with PID) for a few years now I'm looking to bite the bullet and upgrade the coffee machine (and grinder). At first I was dead set on a R58 but having did a few "internet searches" it would seem that the R58 doesn't really offer any advantage over the Cellini/Giotto other than the fact it is more stable once temperature has set in properly.

I've noticed a few threads on here (mainly the "for sale" thread) where people are selling their Cellini units in favour of an "R58 upgrade", so my question is:

Those who have had (or have) both machines - would you kindly be able to describe the advantages of an R58 over your Cellini/Giotto?

As always any advice appreciated!

Oh I currently have a RR45 Rossi grinder and I'm looking for something more compact like the K30 touch.

Kind Regards,

Mark


----------



## Mrboots2u

one is a dual boiler

one is a hx

start there .....

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?27356-HX-or-DB&highlight=dual+boiler


----------



## glevum

If i had a Silvia with a pid, i would go R58. You would possibly miss the temp control with the HX machines IMO


----------



## PeterF

The Quick Mill Verona is a better machine than the one's you mention. Check it out.



RazorliteX said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Having had a Rancilio (with PID) for a few years now I'm looking to bite the bullet and upgrade the coffee machine (and grinder). At first I was dead set on a R58 but having did a few "internet searches" it would seem that the R58 doesn't really offer any advantage over the Cellini/Giotto other than the fact it is more stable once temperature has set in properly.
> 
> I've noticed a few threads on here (mainly the "for sale" thread) where people are selling their Cellini units in favour of an "R58 upgrade", so my question is:
> 
> Those who have had (or have) both machines - would you kindly be able to describe the advantages of an R58 over your Cellini/Giotto?
> 
> As always any advice appreciated!
> 
> Oh I currently have a RR45 Rossi grinder and I'm looking for something more compact like the K30 touch.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Mark


----------



## Rhys

The RR45 is a bit of a lump, with not much adjustment (although the 80 step ring improves things a little bit). Not tried a K30 touch. Can't remember burr size for these.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Do you mean Compak K3 touch?


----------



## Wobin19

RazorliteX said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Having had a Rancilio (with PID) for a few years now I'm looking to bite the bullet and upgrade the coffee machine (and grinder). At first I was dead set on a R58 but having did a few "internet searches" it would seem that the R58 doesn't really offer any advantage over the Cellini/Giotto other than the fact it is more stable once temperature has set in properly.
> 
> I've noticed a few threads on here (mainly the "for sale" thread) where people are selling their Cellini units in favour of an "R58 upgrade", so my question is:
> 
> Those who have had (or have) both machines - would you kindly be able to describe the advantages of an R58 over your Cellini/Giotto?
> 
> As always any advice appreciated!
> 
> Oh I currently have a RR45 Rossi grinder and I'm looking for something more compact like the K30 touch.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Mark


I have owned the HX and more recently the dual boiler Rocket. Both are fab machines in my opinion. In a nutshell the HX is a capable machine but just takes a bit more effort in getting to know the characteristics. PID and dual boiler make it a bit easier to get same result. Also I have noticed steaming is improved with independent service boiler. With the HX also there is a slight compromise between cooling flush length, steam power and temperature stability. As others have said running the HX on the hot side with longer cooling flush gives decent steam and fast recovery with good stability.


----------



## RazorliteX

Mrboots2u said:


> one is a dual boiler
> 
> one is a hx
> 
> start there .....
> 
> http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?27356-HX-or-DB&highlight=dual+boiler












Yeah I worked that one out for myself thanks.







Thanks for the link though will check it out.



Rhys said:


> The RR45 is a bit of a lump, with not much adjustment (although the 80 step ring improves things a little bit). Not tried a K30 touch. Can't remember burr size for these.


Yeah its something that has been bugging me a while, takes some getting used to but the results are ok once you persevere. Sorry I meant the K3 Compak



PeterF said:


> The Quick Mill Verona is a better machine than the one's you mention. Check it out.


Ooo thanks - will check that out!



pessutojr said:


> Do you mean Compak K3 touch?


That's the one, seems quite a capable grinder for the somewhat easy on the eye price.



Wobin19 said:


> I have owned the HX and more recently the dual boiler Rocket. Both are fab machines in my opinion. In a nutshell the HX is a capable machine but just takes a bit more effort in getting to know the characteristics. PID and dual boiler make it a bit easier to get same result. Also I have noticed steaming is improved with independent service boiler. With the HX also there is a slight compromise between cooling flush length, steam power and temperature stability. As others have said running the HX on the hot side with longer cooling flush gives decent steam and fast recovery with good stability.


Thanks, sort of info I'm looking for. General opinion seems to be that the R58 has a much easier and well defined steam control over the HX model.


----------



## Wobin19

RazorliteX said:


> Yeah I worked that one out for myself thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the link though will check it out.
> 
> Yeah its something that has been bugging me a while, takes some getting used to but the results are ok once you persevere. Sorry I meant the K3 Compak
> 
> Ooo thanks - will check that out!
> 
> That's the one, seems quite a capable grinder for the somewhat easy on the eye price.
> 
> Thanks, sort of info I'm looking for. General opinion seems to be that the R58 has a much easier and well defined steam control over the HX model.


More importantly the temperature control for brewing the actual coffee.....


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

There is another thread here comparing a DB Expobar Dual Leva and an HX Rocket Cellini Evo. As you can see the discussion goes towards comparing HX vs DB.

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=12082

Hope that helps.


----------



## RazorliteX

glevum said:


> If i had a Silvia with a pid, i would go R58. You would possibly miss the temp control with the HX machines IMO


Thanks, I missed this one earlier. With the PID it has made the Silvia much more convenient to use so definitely something in the favour of the R58.



PeterF said:


> The Quick Mill Verona is a better machine than the one's you mention. Check it out.


I've been checking about Peter but can't really see any real comparisons edging the Verona in front. Would you be able to advise from any experience or point me in the right direction please?


----------



## Snakehips

Mark,

If it helps.......

I upgraded from a Silvia to a Giotto some 5 years ago and they are worlds apart.

Six months back, just because I could, I happily upgraded my original Giotto to the new Giotto V3 with PID.

Then for no compelling reason, other than I'd been doing too much browsing on this damned forum







I fancied the idea of a dual boiler machine.

My first thought was the R58 and researching that lead me to a thread posted by Glen telling how, after several hours of comparative testing at BB, he decided to purchase an Alex Duetto rather than an R58. I then looked at DavecUK's review of the Alex , a machine which he rated well. Subsequently I found his review of the then upcoming, Verona which he rated even more. (Reviews via BB website)

So the upshot, based upon the opinion of guys with far better coffee making credentials than me, was that I purchased a Verona.

IMO the Verona is definitely runner-up in the style stakes and the quality of finish is not in the same league as the Rockets. However, style and finish don't make coffee.

Coffee-wise I am yet to discern a big difference but this may well be down to my preferred drink being milk based and my palate / barista skills being somewhat limited? It's perhaps early days? Up until now I had actually dithered about parting company with the Giotto but the Verona is nice to use, exceptionally quiet and has all the espresso making capability that I will ever need. No excuses now for me!

If your budget will allow you to go dual boiler and you feel that is where you will eventually end up then do it now. Otherwise I do not think you will be disappointed if you go for a Rocket HX with PID.


----------



## RazorliteX

Snakehips said:


> Mark,
> 
> If it helps.......
> 
> I upgraded from a Silvia to a Giotto some 5 years ago and they are worlds apart.
> 
> Six months back, just because I could, I happily upgraded my original Giotto to the new Giotto V3 with PID.
> 
> Then for no compelling reason, other than I'd been doing too much browsing on this damned forum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I fancied the idea of a dual boiler machine.
> 
> My first thought was the R58 and researching that lead me to a thread posted by Glen telling how, after several hours of comparative testing at BB, he decided to purchase an Alex Duetto rather than an R58. I then looked at DavecUK's review of the Alex , a machine which he rated well. Subsequently I found his review of the then upcoming, Verona which he rated even more. (Reviews via BB website)
> 
> So the upshot, based upon the opinion of guys with far better coffee making credentials than me, was that I purchased a Verona.
> 
> IMO the Verona is definitely runner-up in the style stakes and the quality of finish is not in the same league as the Rockets. However, style and finish don't make coffee.
> 
> Coffee-wise I am yet to discern a big difference but this may well be down to my preferred drink being milk based and my palate / barista skills being somewhat limited? It's perhaps early days? Up until now I had actually dithered about parting company with the Giotto but the Verona is nice to use, exceptionally quiet and has all the espresso making capability that I will ever need. No excuses now for me!
> 
> If your budget will allow you to go dual boiler and you feel that is where you will eventually end up then do it now. Otherwise I do not think you will be disappointed if you go for a Rocket HX with PID.


Hi,

many thanks for your reply, having read your message and the subsequent review by David I've made up my mind. Verona it is.

I now just need to arrange a trip upto Bella to have a final look and then make that purchase.

Thanks all!


----------



## froggystyle

Book your visit, ask if you can see a rocket and verona on the bench and pulling shots.

If you just turn up you run the risk of not having either available, the level of cash you are spending, you need to test first.


----------



## Snakehips

Nice one!!

When you've got it, post in the Quick Mill forum to let us know.


----------



## RazorliteX

RazorliteX said:


> Hi,
> 
> many thanks for your reply, having read your message and the subsequent review by David I've made up my mind. Verona it is.
> 
> I now just need to arrange a trip upto Bella to have a final look and then make that purchase.
> 
> Thanks all!





froggystyle said:


> Book your visit, ask if you can see a rocket and verona on the bench and pulling shots.
> 
> If you just turn up you run the risk of not having either available, the level of cash you are spending, you need to test first.


Thanks for the advice! I was hoping to do a comparison test as a final but never occurred to me they wouldn't have any in stock so will arrange a booking like you said.



Snakehips said:


> Nice one!!
> 
> When you've got it, post in the Quick Mill forum to let us know.


Will do, looking forward to it.


----------



## froggystyle

Oh they will have them in stock, but maybe not set up, i went earlier this year to buy an Alex, but they only had the R58 set up, i went for the rocket in the end, but only because i preferred the look of it over the Alex.


----------



## RazorliteX

Well.. Funny how things pan out. Wanted a rocket and a compak touch k3 but today walked out of Bella barista considerably heavier with a quick mill verona and a Eureka 75e with a considerablely lighter bank balance. Thanks all for the advice, always appreciated


----------



## Snakehips

From Silvia & a pepper grinder to Verona & 75e in one bound! Well done Mark.

Do you not think that, one day, you might look back and regret missing out on the intermediate experience of 2 x Giottos and a Mazzer mini e ?

OK, maybe not









Enjoy!


----------



## RazorliteX

Snakehips said:


> From Silvia & a pepper grinder to Verona & 75e in one bound! Well done Mark.
> 
> Do you not think that, one day, you might look back and regret missing out on the intermediate experience of 2 x Giottos and a Mazzer mini e ?
> 
> OK, maybe not
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy!


Haha well.. some like to take a grand journey from the beginning to the end. Me on the other hand just likes living in the fast lane.


----------



## hotmetal

Way to go. I dipped my toe in the water with the classic, realised it wasn't just a passing fad and went straight to the shiny stuff. R58 is a keeper. Just vague twinges of upgraditis on the grinder front whenever I have a good month. The 75e and E37s keep appearing in my caffeinated dreams.


----------

