# Technological advances that are not improvements



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

This has been something that has bothered me for a while now and a some siliva, gaggia and current sage dual boiler threads and some error code prompted me to post this (they were the prompt...not the issue). I have noticed in life that products seem to go through a life cycle from being new and sometimes not very good...to mature and pretty good. Then the cleverarses get their hands on it, reinvent it and bingo, we suddenly got something that is too clever for it's own good and actually less reliable. in fact said cleverarses often give no thought to reliability, just function and the fact that they have a sensor to detect every fault. Now before anyone starts shouting that I am a luddite, or that I don't understand, or I am living in the past....I am as keen as the next man to embrace new tech....but not blind to it's flaws.

I drive an BMW i3 Rex, I appreciate it for what it can do...but the cleverarses got their hands on it and made something excruciatingly expensive to work on, bespoke, coded, a million sensors and inherently problematic. If it breaks down, it's a flatbed, no one is going to be able to repair it, often it takes BMW 3 months to fix the simplest fault, if they can find it. They have turned what should be a technological marvel into a piece of shit really. How can that be, it's the great BMW, it's one of the top electric cars, it's got all this whizzy stuff on it....However if my life depending on being able to keep it working, I wouldn't ever have one even if it was free. Take something technologically simple though, I can fix that and it's almost certainly going to be more reliable.

We have this peculiar phenomenon now, where reinventions of mature tech, can often lead to less reliability and the scrapping of an item, all because a 20p part fails somewhere (which is actually criminal IMO). We accept embedded batteries, because they misled us about it making the phones thinner. We happily accept products being unrepairable, or ludicrous charges for parts when they have us over a barrel. Trouble is they never asked *us* what we wanted just the people that sell stuff to us, can you imagine if they did ask us.

*Reliability* - most companies and retailers don't care as long as it lasts the warranty period

*Maintainability* - no one cares, because they are happy for you to buy another one

*Complexity* - if it's cheaper, lets do it this way and use electronics to solve a problem (electronics can be much cheaper than mechanical solutions)

*Lifespan* - not even a consideration

*What does the consumer want* - manufacturers ask the retailers, the retailers simply want to sell machines, as far as they are concerned, they want the things that sell machines.

*How cheap can we build it - *They will often save a few Euro, without thought to the problems it causes the purchaser a few years down the line.

I actually think that when people spend upward of 1 or 2K on an espresso machine, they are making a lifetime purchase, or at least a 10-20 year lifespan purchase in their own mind. They expect that it will be reliable, although they are happy to understand that it's steam, hot water, pumps valves and moving parts and that reliability may translate into relatively cheap and easy to repair/replacement maintenance items.. There are always exceptions to the rule, but in general what do other people think, have you noticed this phenomenon which seems to pervade almost everything we buy nowadays...do you think I am just a grumpy old git who is out of touch, or do you not care, when you buy a new machine or grinder, is the latest functions and technology a real buzz?


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm willing to accept things being less reliable if it means the prices are kept rock bottom for more people to be given access. Take washing machines as an example. 40 years ago washing machines cost a fortune. So much so that literally millions of people couldn't afford one and actually sat in a laundrette for what seemed to me as a child to be about 3 hours waiting for the bloody thing to finish. Those lucky enough to be able to afford a washer of their own could reasonably expect it to last 10 years or more with few parts replaced along the way.

Fast forward 40 years and the last washer I bought cost a little over £200. It's efficient and has a 2 year warranty. When it dies I'll bin it and buy another.

The problem I have isn't usually with mechanical machinery, it's with tech. Phones and cars are really good examples, with one trying to milk you through dealer services and repairs and the other seemingly being made to break if you drop them or get them slightly wet.


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## Teaboy (Jul 24, 2018)

I think things ought be built to last, less waste.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I agree with you Dave. Tech isn't inherently a bad thing, but it does generally mean that the buyer has zero chance of doing their own servicing/ maintenance and repair. And that's most likely deliberate. Add a few cheaply implemented new 'features' to something (usually involving electrickery), sell loads to tech- hungry or easily led consumers, take away choice, and then make a killing on repairs, or more likely, don't offer repairs, just tell people it's only supposed to last until the warranty or contract runs out, and hey, the new one is sooooo much better, it's not a replacement it's an 'upgrade'. Not exactly responsible or sustainable.

Not only that, but people unleash all sorts of mayhem with overly clever tech that's not thought through. Take for example all these internet connected 'smart' IoT things like Hive, CCTV, fridges that do your shopping for you as you run out, televisions with cameras that watch you while you watch TV (hopefully not porn, cos they're watching you!) - half this stuff has hard- coded passwords so it is impossible to secure, so hackers can have access to your home network via a poorly secured smart fridge, can scoop up all your data, and even watch and record you and yours in what you believed was the privacy of your own home. And what about all these cars that are connected? So the dealer can phone you up and say "according to our remote diagnostics your car needs a service/ repair, you have 30 days to book an appointment or we invalidate your warranty". "Oh yeah it's so cool I can open my car door or start the engine warming up remotely using an app on my mobile!" - and so can any half decent criminal. They can also remotely control the brakes and accelerator. What could possibly go wrong?

___

Eat, drink and be merry


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## Jacko112 (Oct 29, 2015)

Totally agree @DavecUK

Goes to show what good value the simple lever machines are, especially when you see Jim refurbishing them. Can't see someone doing that to Sage in 50 years time.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

cold war kid said:


> Fast forward 40 years and the last washer I bought cost a little over £200. It's efficient and has a 2 year warranty. When it dies I'll bin it and buy another.


How would you feel though if that same washing machine could cost you only £50 more and instead of lasting 3 years would last 15 or more (because that is the truth of it), perhaps even be repairable.....that's what I am talking about. They load the washing machine with features most people never use (because warez are cheap)...you use it and throw it away....how much did it really cost, who else is paying for that washing machine....because it's not just you! The video has just 1 example and it was exactly what happened to our Beko after less than 2 years and our recent Miele death after 11 years!!!:






In the same way I think devices with embedded batteries should be illegal, unless proved absolutely necessary e.g. medical devices etc..


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## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

I think that part of the problem is that people want (not need) the new features. So, keeping the washing machine line of thought, many people will see that the latest one has an extra kg of load capacity, or something. That means that some people (lets call them keep-up-to-dates) will not be satisfied with the machine that's perfectly serviceable but isn't the latest, or isn't only a couple of years old, so they'd dispose of it whether faulty or not. Making it so that it would last 10-15 years would for those customers just make it an even bigger waste of material/energy etc producing it. At the other end of the market (lets call it cost-conscious), where long-term cost might well be a factor, the chances are those customers will not have a choice over spending an extra £50 up-front (or at least they think they don't) and so the well-engineered item wouldn't be attractive to them.

This same sort of thing happened to cars, nearly a century ago when a manufacturer realised that if they altered the model slightly each year or so, the could sell more (see GM 1920s planned obsolescence). So, it's nothing new, but perhaps we're seeing it accelerate, perhaps we're more aware of it due to environmental media coverage, or something else.

This forum probably isn't as keep-up-to-date as many people are and we're perhaps more into having a good quality thing that's built to last, else we'd not modify pre-2015 Gaggia Classics, restore 1960s/1970s machines.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

Well I can relate to the BMW chips with everything and stupid things like 'Run Flats', why I allowed myself, although it really niggled me, to buy a car with them on.

Saturday night docking at Newhaven, approaching Brighton, a blowout, limped to Brighton, breakdown services kicked in and piggy backed to a hotel for the night, Sunday no tyres available in Brighton but located one nearer London, piggy backed again to this garage and eventually on our way.

So piggy backed twice and an expensive overnight hotel stay all because of no spare wheel and no space to stow one as that is taken up with the battery that incidentally on replacement has to be programmed by BMW to the vehicle system.

Yes for a 530D Touring oil burner I would get easily a return of 42mpg, but it was not reliable, so now I've gone to the other extreme, a car that has a few grease nipples and only gives me 28mpg, however is reliable and I can do most maintenance myself.

Jon.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

AndyDClements said:


> This forum probably isn't as keep-up-to-date as many people are and we're perhaps more into having a good quality thing that's built to last, else we'd not modify pre-2015 Gaggia Classics, restore 1960s/1970s machines.


It's why I love reading the threads where people restore old prosumer machines, levers, Pavonis, Gaggias etc... One less thing to landfill, really good for the environment as something new doesn't have to be built to replace it. It's another reason I like prosumer machines so much...or most of them. They are a long term purchase, when one person has finished with it...it passes to another owner and another...often only going to that graveyard in the sky 4+ decades later. Even then, when it dies....it's mostly recyclable.

I had pods, nespressos and similar, because they are not good even the so called compostable/recyclable are not quite what we think. I remember one type was recently shown to degrade, but into little pieces of plastic so small, it looked like it had gone...but it hadn't. My ECO warrior credentials don't look as good as a waitrose mums, or a sandal wearing type...but for every veggie burger wrapped in a potato skin, or radish leaf packaging of cornflakes....I like to think is more than made up for by 1 repair!


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Once again you hit the nail smack in the middle of the head!

When I started working at the BBC the machinery was repaired at component level. A year or two later it was replace entire boards. (And sometimes send them back to the manufacturer for refurbishing), By the time I left, if it cost less than a thousand quid and was out of warranty it went in the bin and we bought another one. This is madness! Of course in domestic terms it's far worse. We replaced a Miele dishwasher recently and looked at the new ones. No longer a 10 year warranty, five if you're lucky... Bought a Bosch for two thirds of the price with five years warranty. If it dies just after that, so be it. It's cheaper than a new motor for the Miele...



DavecUK said:


> How would you feel though if that same washing machine could cost you only £50 more and instead of lasting 3 years would last 15 or more (because that is the truth of it), perhaps even be repairable.....that's what I am talking about. They load the washing machine with features most people never use (because warez are cheap)...you use it and throw it away....how much did it really cost, who else is paying for that washing machine....because it's not just you! The video has just 1 example and it was exactly what happened to our Beko after less than 2 years and our recent Miele death after 11 years!!!:


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

AndyDClements said:


> This forum probably isn't as keep-up-to-date as many people are and we're perhaps more into having a good quality thing that's built to last, else we'd not modify pre-2015 Gaggia Classics, restore 1960s/1970s machines.


I'm an odd mix of cutting edge and retro, so while I am lost without the internet and have a drawer full of not-yet-installed smart home devices, I'm also really enjoying getting a 12+ year old Fracino up and running.

I used to be an IT sysadmin, and as such we still have an HP LaserJet 4050 printer that was made decades ago. They're incredibly reliable, you can almost completely dismantle it with a screwdriver and HP has to keep making parts because so many government offices have loads of them in constant use!

A newer printer would be a bit quicker, have WiFi built in, do full colour... and stop working when the chip in it reaches 50,000 pages until you buy a replacement cassette. No thanks!


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> This has been something that has bothered me for a while now and a some siliva, gaggia and current sage dual boiler threads and some error code prompted me to post this (they were the prompt...not the issue). I have noticed in life that products seem to go through a life cycle from being new and sometimes not very good...to mature and pretty good. Then the cleverarses get their hands on it, reinvent it and bingo, we suddenly got something that is too clever for it's own good and actually less reliable. in fact said cleverarses often give no thought to reliability, just function and the fact that they have a sensor to detect every fault. Now before anyone starts shouting that I am a luddite, or that I don't understand, or I am living in the past....I am as keen as the next man to embrace new tech....but not blind to it's flaws.
> 
> I drive an BMW i3 Rex, I appreciate it for what it can do...but the cleverarses got their hands on it and made something excruciatingly expensive to work on, bespoke, coded, a million sensors and inherently problematic. If it breaks down, it's a flatbed, no one is going to be able to repair it, often it takes BMW 3 months to fix the simplest fault, if they can find it. They have turned what should be a technological marvel into a piece of shit really. How can that be, it's the great BMW, it's one of the top electric cars, it's got all this whizzy stuff on it....However if my life depending on being able to keep it working, I wouldn't ever have one even if it was free. Take something technologically simple though, I can fix that and it's almost certainly going to be more reliable.
> 
> ...


With cars that is mainly to do with regulations. Especially EU ones.

1993 Toyota/Lexus LS400 for example. Well built, there are ones which have done over 1 million miles without having anything replaced.

Yet the EU would not allow such a car to be made in 2018. They would say it has too many pollutants for example. Which is funny because DPF filters dump all their pollutants out in the countryside doing a steady 60mph. But hey as long as **insert capital cities here** isn't smoggy who cares about everywhere else?

Hence you get cars which are more like appliances designed to be cheap to build and cheap to buy and when it breaks just throw it away...

Regulation makes manufacturers have to innovate in order to get past the actual regulation however there are considerable downsides which lead to producing inferior products.

https://www.ceps.eu/system/files/No%2096%20EU%20Legislation%20and%20Innovation.pdf


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

DavecUK said:


> How would you feel though if that same washing machine could cost you only £50 more and instead of lasting 3 years would last 15 or more (because that is the truth of it), perhaps even be repairable.....that's what I am talking about. They load the washing machine with features most people never use (because warez are cheap)...you use it and throw it away....how much did it really cost, who else is paying for that washing machine....because it's not just you! The video has just 1 example and it was exactly what happened to our Beko after less than 2 years and our recent Miele death after 11 years!!!:


I agree that we should all try and buy things that are superior quality and repairable, but Beko and Miele are perfect examples of what I was talking about when I used washing machines as an example.

The cheapest Beko model is £200. Some people would struggle to find that sort of cash, but even people on benefits can usually afford the weekly payments through a catalogue.

Miele start at around £700 and go up to over £1500. If this sort of quality and price were the only option we'd be living in a society were millions would either still be using using a laundrette or washing board and mangle so I'm quite happy that Beko are a cheap option. I understand they wouldn't be your choice, but you have a choice and lots of people don't.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

cold war kid said:


> Miele start at around £700 and go up to over £1500. If this sort of quality and price were the only option we'd be living in a society were millions would either still be using using a laundrette or washing board and mangle so I'm quite happy that Beko are a cheap option. I understand they wouldn't be your choice, but you have a choice and lots of people don't.


Sure I do have a choice, but I am really referring to Coffee Equipment, using the washing machine as an example. It is true that some people struggle, although there is a case for spending a little more for it to cost you a lot less. There is definitely planned obsolescence in washing machines. Equally a Nespresso might seem cheap, but a BTC may be cheaper in the long term...even if you spend more up front. You usually get better coffee as well.

The other thing I suppose is that these cheap items, don't have to be made in the way they are (unrepairable and throwaway)....we as a society allow that to happen. They "spoil the ship for a hapeth o tar" puposely and we let them. It's like the scandalous nature of inkejet printer manufacture. I had an Canon MP500...I had mine for 14 years, finally got rid of it because i purchased a laser. The planned obsolescence there was an ink absorber pad, when full would render the printer inoperable. They were programmed in such a way that this would happen in around 2 years. Then it was new printer time as the cost of fixing it was more than the cost of a new printer. Pad was right at the bottom, required complete disassembly to replace (no hatch). Then it had to be reset, which only Canon engineers knew how to do...unless you had the service manual (which I obtained). As a result I kept it going for 13+ years and simply refilled the same cartridges it originally came with (for 13 years). My new printer was chosen on the basis of aftermarket toner availability and the ability to reset the consumables (drum), which are programmed to do 3 times less pages than they should in the home environment!

It's the same old thing as the light-bulb cartels of yesteryear.






With coffee machines/equipment we also need to resist changes to try and make throwaway items....I sense it is coming and in some cases already here with many machines. It's why forums like this are important, because they often help the consumer breathe life back into old kit, or fix simple problems on newer kit instead of chucking it out.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

This is such a big subject. I feel it all comes back to money and profit in the end. Keep making things 'better' with more bells and whistles, people will keep buying/upgrading. The masses will, anyway. They are not interested in buying something to last a lifetime.

Apart from people I have met here on the forum I can't think of anyone who would spend their cash on really decent coffee equipment and even if they had the cash going spare (and if they were passionate about coffee) I suspect it would go on a holiday, say. And those friends who do have ample cash are too busy working like crazy earning it to even think about buy-to-last. Maybe they view acquisition of 'stuff' as a way of showing off their wealth.

It is is such a huge subject though.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

I completely agree with you Dave.

I just repaired my Mum's old iphone 4s because I couldn't bear the thought of it going into the bin - I never throw anything out if it can be repaired. It's not really worth anything but a new screen and digitiser (£7.50) and a new internal charging port (£3.50) it's working as good as new. Shame that most people would just chuck them and claim on the insurance.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

In their quest to maximise profits manufacturers look for ways to reduce costs to gain advantage over competitors. In the world of coffee the Minima machine is a good example, using boilers with non replaceable heating elements. When they fail, the whole boiler will need to be replaced or the machine binned if, some years down the line, a replacement is no longer available.

DavecUK makes some good points in this thread. So why is he on here promoting the Minima?


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

...and awake...


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

Apple are even worse. They purposely come out with "updates" that purposely make older phones obselete by making them slower. Then when you go in to an Apple store wondering why your battery now only lasts 90 minutes, or you cannot run the same apps they tell you to buy a new phone.

Android communities were convinced of this "conspiracy theory" for years, told by Apple fanboys to wear tinfoil hats...*then Apple told everyone they actually do it*. The backlash? None. Just gets accepted as "OK". Maybe a fine from the EU (none of which goes back to the customers) or a class action lawsuit in the US (again none of which or very little of which actually finds its way to any customers)... the world goes on as usual and they continue to do it as usual because they make more profits than they lose in fines. They claim its for extending battery life, but people who hack the firmware to force updates to turn off have no battery life issues. https://www.esquire.com/lifestyle/a14485884/why-iphones-slower-bad-batteries/


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

thesmileyone said:


> Apple are even worse. They purposely come out with "updates" that purposely make older phones obselete by making them slower. Then when you go in to an Apple store wondering why your battery now only lasts 90 minutes, or you cannot run the same apps they tell you to buy a new phone.
> 
> Android communities were convinced of this "conspiracy theory" for years, told by Apple fanboys to wear tinfoil hats...*then Apple told everyone they actually do it*. The backlash? None. Just gets accepted as "OK". Maybe a fine from the EU (none of which goes back to the customers) or a class action lawsuit in the US (again none of which or very little of which actually finds its way to any customers)... the world goes on as usual and they continue to do it as usual because they make more profits than they lose in fines. They claim its for extending battery life, but people who hack the firmware to force updates to turn off have no battery life issues. https://www.esquire.com/lifestyle/a14485884/why-iphones-slower-bad-batteries/


Apple prioritising battery life over phone speed does make sense - and it is probably a genuine reason for doing so. I am not sure about people who have 'hacked the firmware' but still get the same battery - but it logically follows that when you run components at a lower clock they use less battery.

I am not saying that Apple weren't influenced to make such a decision because it was also good for their bottom line and upgrades, it may well have been very high up on the agenda.

Apple doing this without telling anyone, or giving people the ability to decide if they want battery life or speed from the get go is what I have the biggest issue with. But then limiting consumer choice has been apples thing from the inception of the iMac.

The same basic principles goes for integrated batteries. Of course they do in fact allow for slimmer phones, and more recently have allowed for waterproofing, it also does not limit how an engineer can design a phone if they don't have to work around a removable component. But again, they added benefit to companies of having a component that is known to have severely reduced functionality after a couple of years causing the desire to upgrade is obvious.

I also hate waste, I avoid buying new where possible these days although that still has a knock on effect. I'll repair something even when it costs me as much as a new product for the part (seriously, the cost of some replacement parts is unreal. I appreciate economics of scale which is a good reason to want more people to repair their stuff. It's self perpetuating when so few people want spare parts that they are enormously expensive to come by. Or perhaps it is more simply a way for manufacturers to put off those people who want to give repairing a crack) - the sense of satisfaction is usually well worth it.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Are spare parts expensive because few want them or are they expensive to discourage repair? I suspect the latter is the case.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Nikko said:


> Are spare parts expensive because few want them or are they expensive to discourage repair? I suspect the latter is the case.


I suspect its somewhat of a combination - most things are.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

johnealey said:


> ...and awake...


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Just for the absence of doubt, was referring not to @DavecUK comment but the person above my original comment coming out from a damp under road environment (those blocking may not have seen this hence no context)

John


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

johnealey said:


> Just for the absence of doubt, was referring not to @DavecUK comment but the person above my original comment coming out from a damp under road environment (those blocking may not have seen this hence no context)
> 
> John


 @johnealey Just for the further absence of doubt....I realised exactly why you were posting what you did and I don't need to read the persons posts to guess that this would be a totally appropriate response and I am sure others felt exactly the same way


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

(phew, was concerned was being too subtle as the gif of Bill Murray, if search for it, is under WTF gif's.)

John


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

johnealey said:


> (phew, was concerned was being too subtle as the gif of Bill Murray, if search for it, is under WTF gif's.)
> 
> John


It's also under "this guy is an idiot" gifs...in the clip, Bill was responding to his doctors stupid comments....I felt it was an appropriate and proportionate use of my time for someone who contributes nothing...









Nah, you were subtle as a heart attack m8







I got fed up with the cat taking the kitten to bed with..."that's enough internet for you"


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

johnealey said:


> Just for the absence of doubt, was referring not to @DavecUK comment but the person above my original comment coming out from a damp under road environment (those blocking may not have seen this hence no context)
> 
> John


Thanks for the clarification. Had assumed you were troll spotting.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> Yhanks for the clarification. Had assumed you were troll spotting.


A certain person...(not John)...simply needs to drink a big cup of STFU tonight and make a resolution to start posting without trolling.....


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> A certain person...(not John)...simply needs to drink a big cup of STFU tonight and make a resolution to start posting without trolling.....


Wouldn't matter to me if he did as he's the only occupant of my ignore list.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

LOL I've spent a long time working for the automotive industry. People can blame them for a lot of things that go on these days. The term is a mature industry. How to increase market size and profit if you happen to be in one. The principles are often applied rather badly in some areas. Change after change and offering more are some of the guiding lights. Actually I don't think that the automotive side make that bad a job of it. Often while it may not seem to be the case changes often reduce costs and can have other advantages. Taking adding rear view cameras. Added as a gimmick of sorts but combined with electric steering cars can park themselves. Other changes come about due to legislation. The bad aspect in some areas is higher end car facilities drifting down to cheaper cars. Once one does it others feel that they need to follow on. Hence ABS, ASR and air con being fairly normal these days. The fact that they are on cheaper cars sometimes results in lower quality - too low sometimes but eventually usually drifting up to something acceptable. Take ABS I can now go buy a car and know that when I test it I'll probably be happy. That hasn't always been the case. A bloke that goes around repairing air con systems mentioned that these days due to cheaper bits and pieces he has lot and lots of work to do. Sometimes commercial aspect come into it. Take the new coolants in car air con systems - it was picked because it was most suitable for existing components not 'cause it was the best. Prior to cats being introduced on petrol cars engineers here were saying hang on looks like we can do it with lean burn engines - gov said no use cats. Mitsubishi came up with an interesting one on diesels - cats no fit a tank of urea and inject that instead.

Sensors all over the place are less easy to explain but often relate to total cost and the ease of using software. A saying in the trade in that area is that it's only software. It doesn't cost much to do and it's easy to "fit". It can also help companies make a lot more money in some areas. The approaches used can simplify wiring compared with older ways. Engine management is software - it doesn't make any sense at all now to use a mechanical throttle linkage - they use flaky throttle pots instead - those evolve and get reliable. Drive by wire tends in the end to make things cheaper and maybe even better. If you run a hybrid or pure electric vehicle it may even have brake by wire. ABS may decide to apply full brakes for a driver - there is a good reason for that. Slight changes and anti skid / ASR is possible, bit more work and not much automatic hill hold when the brake pedal is released can be added. One thing that is unlikely to happen once something of that sort starts is adding the lot in one go - better to leave some for next year.

John

-


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

ajohn said:


> Sensors all over the place are less easy to explain but often relate to total cost and the ease of using software. A saying in the trade in that area is that it's only software. It doesn't cost much to do and it's easy to "fit". It can also help companies make a lot more money in some areas. John
> 
> -


When a fault occurs the sad thing is you need to either fork out and by your own diagnostics or pay up ward of £75.00 to have the codes read, either way they have you by the short and curlies.

Electronics are peanuts in price, put them in a module, on a circuit board and they suddenly increase tremendously.

Jon.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

xpresso said:


> When a fault occurs the sad thing is you need to either fork out and by your own diagnostics or pay up ward of £75.00 to have the codes read, either way they have you by the short and curlies.
> 
> Electronics are peanuts in price, put them in a module, on a circuit board and they suddenly increase tremendously.
> 
> Jon.


And then even with sophisticated test equipment they can not sort out the problem (s) Then resort to swapping components ££££££££


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

El carajillo said:


> And then even with sophisticated test equipment they can not sort out the problem (s) Then resort to swapping components ££££££££


So very true and they still charge for the supposed unnecessary parts leading up to final culprit.

There used to be a name for it ........... stair stepping.

Jon.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I'd suspect the outcome of using diagnostic gear on a car could relate to the kit that is used to do it. The main agents gear is likely to do a better job. The problem with using them is cost. Service and repair work accounts for a lot of their profit. Some would say a very high proportion of it - hence 3 year warrantee with main agent servicing. Personally I am very fond of warrantees but getting a decent straight forwards one is a nightmare. For instance I needed to find one that would fork out £100 an hour for work as the Jag one was up. A Jaguar agent would accept that at the time as it was their contract rate. Had to claim on it for some mechanical work and managed to get the agent to do the phone calls. He had some one on the phone for 3/4hr before any one answered and they were charging for the call all of the time they were on the phone. Maybe the warrantees that get sold with used cars from none main agent sources are a lot better. I did claim on one of those once and there wasn't any problem other than that they stipulated which garage it had to go to.

Regular updates of products can be interesting. I've been looking around at various makes of grinder and wondered why some can be tricky to find while there are loads of Mazzers about. Mazzers hardly ever change. Ceado look like they may update every year. Fiorenzato seem to change them pretty regularly as well. I'm told Cunhill do too. Eureka may be going the same way but plenty of those about - loads of colours now though. I don't see much signs of distributors if they exist selling off last years model at discounted prices as happens with many other things so wonder if this is why retailers usually restrict what they offer and stuff actually comes straight from the manufacturers. They are ok, they just switch to the new style when ever they feel like it. What will a retailer do - quietly continue selling last years model. It's not the sort of market that needs this sort of approach - it's too small. It only makes sense if the new model really does do something significantly better than the previous one. IMHO at the moment - unlikely. One day - probably.

John

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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Sage Oracle - great idea, badly done imo


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

GingerBen said:


> Sage Oracle - great idea, badly done imo


It reminds me of Music Centres vs Separates. I am also staggered that people take notice of reviews that don't cover technicals properly, don't open up the machine and go through it, basically reviews that are not thorough...just fulff? I personally wouldn't drop £1149 on one...I would also not expect the machine to be in use 10 years later. I have read many owners threads and they seem to think it's fine to be repairing them quite often (because certain bits always fail every few years) and usually at around 5 years, they decide to get rid and buy something else. I hate machines with integrated grinders (unavoidable with BTC), especially when they cost this much. When the grinder has a problem, it's like the old Music centre....throw the lot away.

It wouldn't be so bad if spares were available, cheap or the machines are easy to work on.....the problem is it's the exact opposite and they don't want to support you in repairing them.

So for me, bad idea, badly done and I don't think these sort of machines can ever be a good idea at those prices.


My Duetto MK1 11 years old, but used for 7 years before going into storage, not one problem, on 16 hours per day every day

My Vesuvius not one problem, on 16 hours per day every day for 4 years...I have just had to change group gaskets.

Alpha Minima not one problem on 24 hours per day both boilers 2 months, then on 16 hours per day 1 month (part of stress testing, because it won't go to an end customer).


I don't see a sage doing that...

Now Mazzer grinders, the one good thing they did was not add a whole load of useless crap and changed little over the years. The bad thing they did, was not change the weaker parts of their overall design, whilst keeping it simple. So the weaknesses in the original design are still there, but fortunately not complicated by extra unneeded functions. The Vario was a complete exercise in making something that might have looked good on paper but was not so good in reality, much like the later Sette. They didn't worry about fixing the reliability problems, just added even more whizzy features....and we yummed them up!


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Interesting discussion so far!

My first reaction: that's what makes the world go round. For the most part. Even if we don't approve.

Nowadays, there's much more mind tricks and allurement in product marketing than references to quality and longevity.

As an industrial designer I see and battle the things you guys have rightly criticised, on a daily basis. I succeed as well as I fail from time to time, but then it's all I could do.

As for the Sage Oracle integrated design: totally agree that combined machines are troublesome if something breaks. Still, I once got me a Quickmill 0835 that I use multiple times a day for years now.

Nothing wrong with it, so far. In the office it needs to be all-in-one so I can easily move it around and take it home preforming regular service... very accessible internals, love it!

Obviously depends on what you expect from such a combination.

As for added functions: good old 80/20 rule. Product psychology says a product feels richer and more capable if it has more functions. Even though 80% of users will only use 20% of its functions.

Many of us @CFUK are purists (and maybe even elitists) taking things seriously, at least when it comes to coffee. We represent part of the other 20%...  make of it what you want haha!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

As I get older, I suppose I appreciate more the sense of permanence and quality we are loosing. I pick up an old king Dick small adjustable spanner of my fathers....it was made in 1928 and is around 90 years old. It still occupies my tool kit today. in fact most of my tools (spanners, sockets, hammers, files hacksaws etc.. were my Fathers and date back from 1945 and earlier. This means many of the tools I use regularly are 75+ years old. Each time I hold one of these tools, I think about that. old calipers, old guages, old tools....but they could still make, service or repair a merlin engine and many of my fathers tools did exactly that!

I sometimes dislike modern many manufacturing ways...I understand the need for them, but it doesn't mean I have to like them. In products where they need to be a certain way, I am fully supportive, but planned...or *unplanned* obsolescence, I hate.

Here is one to chew over.....how much do you think it saves to use a mild steel painted frame in a machine, rather than a stainless one (if the frame i painted black, it's because it's mild steel). Even the little minima, built to a price, is not built at any price and has a stainless steel frame, not black painted mild steel. So the Minima won't rust!

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b&biw=2304&bih=1140&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=wg1fW9unKcWQkwWTyr74AQ&q=+rusty+espresso+machine&oq=+rusty+espresso+machine&gs_l=img.3...6568.11224.0.11635.3.3.0.0.0.0.86.213.3.3.0....0...1c.1j2.64.img..0.1.86...0j35i39k1j0i67k1.0.3ZEXEFjNhVc

Next time you look in your machine, does it have a stainless steel frame (and case of course, but the tin side of things is a given)....all the ones I own do!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Although you have one or two years on me yet Dave - I also feel that as I have gotten older I specifically look out for the quality in things, often looking at the most expensive item for a job then looking in to why it costs more and if the benefits are worth it. I'll often then look for a well cared for second hand one, as I dont like to waste money needlessly.

For me however this isn't actually all that much to do with age, but rather to do with a slightly fatter wallet that allows me to choose items that will last, but cost a bit more to begin with. Tools are a very good example of this - cheap ones will do for one or two jobs but nice tools can be put in your shed or attic (if you have one) and used time and again without issue.

As with many/most things in life there are both up and downsides to things being cheap - the advent of widespread capitalism in the US and the rapid decline in the cost of consumer goods contributed to the growth and happiness of the middle classes and in turn the wealth and power of America as a whole. There is also a huge benefit to social mobility when the less well off can afford the products that make life and/or work easier or more productive.

The problem with all this expansion, wealth creation and resource consumption is that its killing our planet, the balance of consumption vs regeneration is completely out of whack and we are seeing the effects of that.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Dylan said:


> As with many/most things in life there are both up and downsides to things being cheap - the advent of widespread capitalism in the US and the rapid decline in the cost of consumer goods contributed to the growth and happiness of the middle classes and in turn the wealth and power of America as a whole. There is also a huge benefit to social mobility when the less well off can afford the products that make life and/or work easier or more productive.
> 
> The problem with all this expansion, wealth creation and resource consumption is that its killing our planet, the balance of consumption vs regeneration is completely out of whack and we are seeing the effects of that.


Very well put.

And then there's conspicuous consumption (Veblen, 1899) everywhere. Luckily, the average coffee enthusiast ticks somewhat more sustainable. Even though most of us love talking about their equipment, we usually make long-term purchases, and/or actively take part in second-hand market.

Pride will have a fall, they say. Like the dinosaurs did, mankind needs to die off somehow to make room for the next step of evolution


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> Here is one to chew over.....how much do you think it saves to use a mild steel painted frame in a machine, rather than a stainless one (if the frame i painted black, it's because it's mild steel). Even the little minima, built to a price, is not built at any price and has a stainless steel frame, not black painted mild steel. So the Minima won't rust


The Minima frame may not rust but the boiler heaters are not replaceable so the shiny machine will be binned when replacement boilers are no longer available. Would have been much better to save money on the frame than on the boilers. After all, a decent mild steel frame will never rust through if the machine is looked after and not abused.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

did someone say something...


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> did someone say something...


Must've been the wind...


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> did someone say something...


Que, I from Barcelona I no nothing:confused:


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

LOL Sages use a lot of stainless in there espresso machines, also I think including the boilers. Going on their grinders they also do upgrade things - in that case some reckoned 18months of heavier home use wore something out. A plastic part that flings the grinds out. Now metal and plastic so it doesn't wear out.







might even be stainless.Upgrading that didn't change anything else. The adjustable burrs was a separate change.

There espresso machines getting upgrades - pass.

Has to be said that there are some very poor quality items about where ever some one looks. One that really annoyed me was can openers. We had a dog that was fed on canned food - lucky if many of them lasted more than a couple of months. All had the same problem - the rivet holding the bits together just wasn't up to the job. Cheap, expensive didn't make any difference at all. One type but different to the usual design lasted a lot longer. Well they did when they came from Wooly's

It often surprises me how long electronics can last but it depends on how the makers go about it and in some cases the type of parts they use.I reckon that on TV's for instance it could be wise to buy ones where the company makes everything in it especially the electronics.

John

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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

We are close to getting into, 'They don't make them like they used to' territory . . .


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

My can opener is on that was in my flat when I bought it....it was easy 20 years old then and I still have it 34 years later..I imagine it will still be going in another 34 years. Of course mine is an original and not the cheaper modern knock off....they don't make them like they used to!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> My can opener is on that was in my flat when I bought it....it was easy 20 years old then and I still have it 34 years later..I imagine it will still be going in another 34 years. Of course mine is an original and not the cheaper modern knock off....they don't make them like they used to!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You need to eat this for a while to test it









It looks like they still do one size of tin without a pull ring.

John

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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I prefer my old manual can opener too









Editing to add I have just been reminded I have an old Bukly one too. I am too ashamed to share it here because it really needs a derust !


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## Dumnorix (Dec 29, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> My can opener is on that was in my flat when I bought it....it was easy 20 years old then and I still have it 34 years later..I imagine it will still be going in another 34 years. Of course mine is an original and not the cheaper modern knock off....they don't make them like they used to!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had one exactly like this and it was brilliant- I was devastated (relatively speaking) when I managed to lose it moving house 6 years ago. I've never had one quite like it since. I just hate the ones that seem to cut the whole of the top of the can off and leave a really sharp edge.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

I would apply this train of thought beyond the electronic infested coffee machine to many other appliances from the fridge to the toaster it removes reparability promotes obsolescence and creates landfill and joy for the manufacturer as they get to charge for a new product again and again. The great manufactures build their name on reliability and respect for the support they provide. The majority however trade on the gullibility of the consumer into spending endless debt on the latest and greatest minute improvement or design. Car manufacturers are one of the worst, at the moment if your car doesn't look like a beefed up 4x4 joe public wont buy it, is it a better car no, but its part of an endless game of keeping up with the neighbours and looking to gain respect from our latest possessions rather than what we do with our life and how we treat the people around us, eventually you end up where the president of America is a gold plated racist misogynist without a moral or cultural fiber in his being and half his country vote him in.

dops mic,,, im of to live in a cave with a pavoni


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I agree with your sentiments, jimbojohn. I have often wondered when this 'keeping up with the Jonses' thing began. I am sure I can't recall it being quite so noticeable as it is these days. Maybe we can blame social media for it


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## Teejay (Dec 4, 2017)

Hmm reminds me of this...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MildredM said:


> I prefer my old manual can opener too
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No for butchers tripe best to use one of these. Truly useful thing for the kitchen. I will open all sorts of things









John

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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

jimbojohn55 said:


> I would apply this train of thought beyond the electronic infested coffee machine to many other appliances from the fridge to the toaster it removes reparability promotes obsolescence and creates landfill and joy for the manufacturer as they get to charge for a new product again and again. The great manufactures build their name on reliability and respect for the support they provide. The majority however trade on the gullibility of the consumer into spending endless debt on the latest and greatest minute improvement or design. Car manufacturers are one of the worst, at the moment if your car doesn't look like a beefed up 4x4 joe public wont buy it, is it a better car no, but its part of an endless game of keeping up with the neighbours and looking to gain respect from our latest possessions rather than what we do with our life and how we treat the people around us, eventually you end up where the president of America is a gold plated racist misogynist without a moral or cultural fiber in his being and half his country vote him in.
> 
> dops mic,,, im of to live in a cave with a pavoni


My thoughts exactly, as outlined above...



MildredM said:


> I agree with your sentiments, jimbojohn. I have often wondered when this 'keeping up with the Jonses' thing began. I am sure I can't recall it being quite so noticeable as it is these days. Maybe we can blame social media for it


It began in Victorian times, already.

Industrialisation brought prosperity as well as status symbols to a wider audience. Think automobiles, this evolution had a short peak during 1920s, "only" to be disrupted by wars and recession. But in the 50s, when mass motorisation became a thing, the riches needed something better to set themselves apart. So we've ended up in sort of a race, where new stuff turns into standard ever quicker.

The 1980s saw the rise of visible brand names and logos. Sport sponsoring and commercials grew in importance. It just went down the drain, ever since... you can't even watch sports nowadays because nobody knows whether they're in a commercial break or playing a game, promoting or racing or whatever... @MildredM you were right, now where's the Forum Rants thread when you need it most?!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Hasi sort of has it right but some people walked round in the bronze age wearing gold so it all started a long time ago. It used to be my dagger or what ever is better than yours but over time there is an ever increasing number of items people can buy. Earlier some one probably made much posher arrow heads than others so those that had more or better goods to barter with could have them. I actually walked past a stone age arrow head factory once.








Some people call it progress but the main drive that causes it is making money. The accent on the money aspect gets stronger and stronger as time goes by to the extent that people can go out and buy what is essentially not far of rubbish.

:secret:I think espresso machines need a lot more electronics. They are lagging behind. They also need more and better software. Problem it costs money to do it. The end product is cheap to make but as always that doesn't mean it will be cheap to buy until all machines offer it. This sort of thing is what makes the world go round. They can be repaired but it needs a different skill set. Certain parts are more likely to fail than others and a lot depends on how they are designed in the first place. Most people on here know about PID, here it includes what some call an SCR which should be called a Triac. Me being more industrial would use an 800v part. Others 600v. It probably cost exactly the same amount to make either of them but the numbers are bigger on one so guess what. The makers would also charge what they thought they could get away with according to who was buying it.

:act-up:The thing that annoys me is crap design or things that have just been badly made with no excuse even cost. Also things that get on the market that have serious flaws. Take TV's for instance with curved screens. Sit the right distance from them and any reflection will be focused some distance from the screen. Once some ones eyes lock on that good luck with trying to watch the TV. Another. If you intend to buy an american style fridge freezer research strange noises. They can make noises that sound like pistol shots due to the use of plastics and them expanding and contracting. Neither of these could have got on the market without the makers being fully aware of the problems they have. Also trading on a name. I bought a Sony TV once, I mean Sony, colour correction will be as good as it can be. Turned out to be the worst I have ever seen. JVC are reckoned to make the best panels for TV's etc - buy one now at your peril. They want to make O Led obviously a lot better.








I changed things for a living so I can't object to progress only to when it is done badly. Really there is no other reason to object to it. There is cause to object to progress in the marketing and pricing area. Just as in any other area there has been lots of "progress" there.

John

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