# Pro 500 PID or Pro 600



## cengland117 (Apr 11, 2020)

Hello all,

I am in the market for a new machine and after far, far too much time spent researching I have narrowed my options down to the pro 500 or pro 600. In terms of budget I am comfortable spending the extra the 600 retails for but wouldn't mind saving the £300 difference. The final query I would like satisfied in my mind before purchasing is in relation to the machines' abilities to alter temperatures.

I like to fiddle with brew recipes and therefore the ability to do this is important. The dual boiler of the 600 would seem the best choice on this particular feature. However, research on the 500 with PID would suggest that it may be quite capable in this department too. My understanding is the 500 has been designed through an effective use of the thermosyphon to maintain a factory present brew temp without the need for the usual HX flush. The PID can raise the steam boiler temp which in turn would effect the brew temp indirectly. My thought is that if the thermosyphon system has been set up to keep stable brew water temperature at a certain steam boiler temperature, then an increase in steam temp will increase brew temp without the need to do all the usual flushing that would be used on a typical HX machine. In effect, for the purpose of adjusting temps, the machines are comparable.

I would really appreciate thoughts on this. If anyone has a 500 and has experience of playing with the PID, does my thinking line up with reality or am I missing something?

Cheers


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I think you are wrong in your rationale, I'm sorry.

An HX machine has one service boiler and a heat exchanger for the brew path which goes through the service boiler. The water inside the brew path will always overheat. The PID controls the temperature of the service boiler, which will be constantly at approx 123-126C, depending on what you set it too. There's no way, in day to day usage, that this will control the brew temp to something you want. All you can do is to use the cooling flush to cool down the group to a brew friendly temperature. Unless you install a thermometer in the group. A PID on an HX is not effective or essential. It does s job which is no different to a pressure stat.

Giving your expectations, I'd strongly recommend you go for the Pro-600. You can set the temperature you want for your coffee, and, once up to stable temp, you can just walk to the machine and pull a shot. No flushes, no guess work.


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## jscott (Jun 25, 2019)

Hi, welcome to the forum!

I have experience with both machines - I have a Pro 600 and my father has the Pro 500 PID.

Both machines are excellent but there are some advantages to the Pro 600. Firstly, yes, the temperature with on the 500 is more controllable now that it has a PID, but due to differences in manufacturing tolerances (and possibly differences in ambient temperature?), you can't really rely on the table in the manual which tells you what boiler temperature equates to what brew temperature (there's some posts about this on the Home Barista forums). Really, due to the HX design, you would need to get a group head thermometer like the Coffee Sensor to know what brew temperature you are getting. My father used his machine for a couple of months before getting one and it turned out he had the temperature set too low.

Once you know what PID setting equates to what brew temperature, then yes, you can get away without the cooling flush that you would usually need on a HX. BUT, we noticed that after pulling a shot, the subsequent shots would be a couple of degrees cooler - you would have to wait a few minutes for the group temperature to recover (I think this is due to the restrictor in the thermosyphon). If you just want to brew one shot at a time, that is fine. But if you want to brew 2 or 3 in a row, we found that it is better to set the PID higher (124-125 deg C) and do a cooling flush like a regular HX - this seems to make brew temperature more consistent for subsequent shots.

On the other hand, the Pro 600 is simple - set the brew temperature to what you want on the PID and that's what you get, a short 1-2 second flush before each shot and its temp stable for multiple shots in a row (I tried the group head thermometer in my Pro 600 as well - it is very temperature stable). The brew boiler setup is the same as the Pro 700/ECM Synchronica as far as I know. The other advantage is that the steam boiler is separately controlled, so you can set the stream pressure to whatever you want without affecting the brew temp - I run mine at 125 deg but it will go to 132? (2 bar) - very very powerful steam!

I know this probably sounds quite negative for the Pro 500, but they both are great machines - at least if you have a group head thermometer for the Pro 500, in my opinion.

Hope that helps! Sorry - quite a long post!


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## cengland117 (Apr 11, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I think you are wrong in your rationale, I'm sorry.
> 
> An HX machine has one service boiler and a heat exchanger for the brew path which goes through the service boiler. The water inside the brew path will always overheat. The PID controls the temperature of the service boiler, which will be constantly at approx 123-126C, depending on what you set it too. There's no way, in day to day usage, that this will control the brew temp to something you want. All you can do is to use the cooling flush to cool down the group to a brew friendly temperature. Unless you install a thermometer in the group. A PID on an HX is not effective or essential. It does s job which is no different to a pressure stat.
> 
> Giving your expectations, I'd strongly recommend you go for the Pro-600. You can set the temperature you want for your coffee, and, once up to stable temp, you can just walk to the machine and pull a shot. No flushes, no guess work.


 This was my initial thoughts exactly. I understand that a PID is essentially a glorified pressure stat and in a HX design, does not in itself aid the overheating issue you mention. But it would appear that Profitec had configured the thermosyphon on the 500 (by use of a restrictor I believe) to cool the overheated water from the HX down to a point that when the pump engages from an idle position, at their standard temp (which I think was 93/94C) when fresh water was introduced, the brew temp was spot on. ie. no cooling flush required. Whole Latte Love seem to swear by this. I think it's just how this particular machine has been configured and wouldn't therefore apply to all HX machines, PID or not.



jscott said:


> Hi, welcome to the forum!
> 
> I have experience with both machines - I have a Pro 600 and my father has the Pro 500 PID.
> 
> ...


 Perfect - thanks for sharing. That all makes sense. I think the 600 is the way to go!
Many thanks for your help guys, you have been most helpful.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

For the sake of the comparison, take a look at the Lelit MaraX and the in depth reviews from DavecUK. That machine is a HX machine, but the control box has a fancy algorithm, with three settings, which keeps the temperature very stable.

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/lelit-marax-review-in-progress/

Fracino is another manufacturer which says that cooling flushes are a design flaw.

Before I had my Pro 700, I had a Rocket HX briefly. Big mistake. Didn't get on with the cooling flushes at all. The Profitec was so simple... get up, walk up to machine (pre heated, turned on 45 minutes before hand by a smart plug).

If the P600 is a P700 with a vibe pump.... you won't regret it. It's a great, solid, stable machine.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

The Mara X is an HX design with a set point reset function. Hardly the last word in control sophistication. The pressure in the steam boiler can increase by over 1 bar following a shot which will invariably have an effect on the water temperature of subsequent shots.


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## cengland117 (Apr 11, 2020)

The MaraX looks like a really interesting option, especially at that price point. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

So... you seem pretty set on the machines.... but which grinder are you planning to pair it with? Don't overlook or compromise on the grinder, that's the advice!


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## cengland117 (Apr 11, 2020)

I've got a Atom 75 on its way which I am hoping will do the trick!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

cengland117 said:


> I've got a Atom 75 on its way which I am hoping will do the trick!


Oh! Nice!


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## Waitforme (Dec 13, 2020)

@cengland117 , did you eventually buy the P600 ?


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## cengland117 (Apr 11, 2020)

Waitforme said:


> @cengland117 , did you eventually buy the P600 ?


 I didn't! I ended up getting the Mara X which started to get a lot of attention around that time. Still think the 600 is a nice unit and but at £700 more than the Mara X, it misses the value for money mark for me


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## Waitforme (Dec 13, 2020)

Yes, it's a fair bit more expensive.

Are you happy with the MaraX ?


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## P1Fanatic (Mar 6, 2021)

Waitforme said:


> Yes, it's a fair bit more expensive.
> 
> Are you happy with the MaraX ?


 @cengland117I'd be interested in your answer to this as well as I keep coming back to both the Mara X and Pro 600. As its a first dabble into prosumer espresso machines the extra £699 for the Profitec and larger footprint is making me come back to the Mara X. But I dont want to save £699 now and then end up wondering what if in 1-2 years and losing the money anyway trading up. I do love the aesthetics of the Pro 600 and the build quality inside and out.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

P1Fanatic said:


> @cengland117I'd be interested in your answer to this as well as I keep coming back to both the Mara X and Pro 600. As its a first dabble into prosumer espresso machines the extra £699 for the Profitec and larger footprint is making me come back to the Mara X. But I dont want to save £699 now and then end up wondering what if in 1-2 years and losing the money anyway trading up. I do love the aesthetics of the Pro 600 and the build quality inside and out.


 You need to ask yourself a very simple question: Do you want a Dual Boiler or HX machine (albeit an HX machine which behaves similarly to a dual boiler within certain constraints).

If you want an HX, the MaraX is the one to go (And hence why you are saving some money).

If you want a dual boiler, which allows you finer control over brew temperature, then you are looking at Lelit Elizabeth, Pro-600, Pro-700, Lelit Bianca from Bella Barista, or ACS Minima and Bezzera Duo from BlackCatCoffee.

I used to own a Pro-700 back in the day. Would I buy it again? Nah. There are better machines for the price out there.


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## Waitforme (Dec 13, 2020)

@P1Fanatic, MRS is bang on the button with his advice👍

Just wanted to add that there is a Bianca in the for sale section 🤔


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## Coffeenewboy (Sep 10, 2019)

I'm looking for the right machine for our use, and whilst the P300 might work, I'm really after buying something that will last forever.

I love the aesthetics and quality of the P600, but it's probably overkill for what we need.....

2 coffees weekdays with milk and then a few more on weekends.

The 600 is not cheap at all, and the

minima matches it for apec but not quite build quality imo.

its so difficult to get the right machine given the wode

chouces....


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/profitec-600-espresso-machine.html


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