# v60 Grind Comparison!



## fatboyslim

Howdy brewers!

I'm holy resigned to accepting that my Preciso produces a significant number of fines as to require a much much coarser grind than should actually be needed to achieve desired total brew times.

I'm just wondering if y'all would be interested in comparing grind sizes used for your v60s or Chemex by posting photos. I'd say a few grams spread out on a piece of white paper with an area compacted by your finger.

I will get a pic up this afternoon of my finest gravel. I'm using 17g in a 2 cup v60. Obviously 1 cup and different size chemex all use different grind sizes but I'm still interested to see the general shape of things. Also state your grinder.


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## garydyke1

I think its about time you posted a video


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## MWJB

What's a "desired brew time"?

Ok, I'm playing devil's advocate ;-)...I know what you mean, but why are you focussing on time specifically?

I've had stonking pourovers at any where from 2 to 7 minutes. Are your V60s overextracting? I find when I hit on an ideal dose, I get quite a leeway on useable grind, even "works" with a Krups!

Plus, I've never managed to get consistent results by eyeballing grinds from 2 different grinders...but that only means that I can't do it..., rather than it "can't" be done! ;-)


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## garydyke1

Pergers video was probably Ditting/Uber Grinder then sifted all fines below a certain size, so he could purposely over-extract but keep the taste acceptable. He did this in the worlds.


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## MWJB

Perger's Youtube demo and the brew in the WBC were a little different, differing brew ratios...60g/l in the Youtube, a little less than that in the WBC, presumably to keep TDS within acceptable range? Indeed, both may have been sifted but I don't recall any specific reference to in the Youtube?

Edit: 12g dose @ 20.8% (2.5g), yeild 1.41& TDS, on the St Ali Video. 11.8g dose @ 23% (2.7g) yeild in the brewer's cup (probably around 1.5%TDS?).


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## garydyke1

MWJB said:


> Perger's Youtube demo and the brew in the WBC were a little different, differing brew ratios...60g/l in the Youtube, a little less than that in the WBC, presumably to keep TDS within acceptable range? Indeed, both may have been sifted but I *don't recall any specific reference to in the Youtube*?


I only assumed this as presumably he sifted in the worlds because he gained a much better results in the cup, thus wouldnt he adopt this by default as his approach? Personally I wouldnt sift If I had an Uber grinder/ Ditting. Im happy with my Chemex and Maestro+ combo


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## fatboyslim

Stop discussing and take some photos of your grind!


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## MWJB

I'm not allowed to play with cameras at the minute, I broke mine & then my Dad's in the same week! :-(


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## garydyke1

garydyke1 said:


> I think its about time you posted a video


still stands ; )


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## fatboyslim

ha ha ha I made a video but my hand was so unbelievably shaky I think its barely watchable.

Also its some HB Cachoeira that is seriously past its best, over a month old so hardly any bloom. Still tastes like heavenly caramel though









I may try roping my girlfriend in to help me film but that really would be a sign of commitment ha ha ha.

I was correct in my assumption that shifting the grind size by 5 macro settings finer on the Preciso did not drastically alter the total brew time. Going to try even finer and see what happens.

I'll make a video on Thursday after my deadline









EDIT: Here is a huge picture of my grind https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2654032/Photo%2015-01-2013%2014%2036%2027.jpg


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## garydyke1

Keep going finer and finer until it tastes bad.

I took this approach on the Maestro and it didnt taste bad until I got REALLY fine, almost espresso looking


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## Earlepap

The camera on my phone is pretty bad, but here's a pic anyway. Not sure it's of any use!

Vario, steel burrs

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/9315/v60chem.jpg


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## fatboyslim

Your Chemex grind looks interesting. Pretty coarse and fairly uneven shaped fragments would you say?

My grind looks similar but with more fines


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## garydyke1

Earlepap said:


> The camera on my phone is pretty bad, but here's a pic anyway. Not sure it's of any use!
> 
> Vario, steel burrs
> 
> http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/9315/v60chem.jpg


My v60 grind looks in that ball park.

Wouldnt say my chemex setting was quite as coarse with such a broad spectrum of particles

Hard to see though really,


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## Earlepap

Yeah not a great photo. I'm happy with the grind consistency, particularly after being away for Christmas and having to use the Porlex. Think I was taking the Vario for granted!


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## garydyke1

poorlex ; )


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## fatboyslim

poolex? I can see myself getting into sieving my grind.....

Did anyone find a suitable food-grade sieve?


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## garydyke1

fatboyslim said:


> poolex? I can see myself getting into sieving my grind.....
> 
> Did anyone find a suitable food-grade sieve?


There was a bit of collaboration on here last year, I (and a few others) ended up with a micro-sieve and attached plastic tube - does a great job of removing fines. Do I still use it? No. The small benefit gained costs me a) time and b) grind freshness ...it takes a while.

Send me some of those awesome choc truffles and you can have it.

Another reason why it doesnt get used is the Maestro, the results are way better than the poorlex I had at the time.


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## Earlepap

garydyke1 said:


> There was a bit of collaboration on here last year, I (and a few others) ended up with a micro-sieve and attached plastic tube - does a great job of removing fines.


That plastic thing has a mesh with the same size holes in microns as a few entrants in last years brewers cup. Trouble is that's really small, and since the sieve is small too, it takes a long time. It does get rid of the fines and nothing else though. You can have mine 'n all.

Or, I've had good results using a tea strainer. Provided your using a coarse grind it works well. Twenty secs of shaking gets rid of a couple grams of finer particles - not just fines though.


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## garydyke1

Earlepap said:


> That plastic thing has a mesh with the same size holes in microns as a few entrants in last years brewers cup. Trouble is that's really small, and since the sieve is small too, it takes a long time. It does get rid of the fines and nothing else though. You can have mine 'n all.
> 
> Or, I've had good results using a tea strainer. Provided your using a coarse grind it works well. Twenty secs of shaking gets rid of a couple grams of finer particles - not just fines though.


I think there is place for this for v60-01 brews using low doses, however the impact on a 30g/500g chemex just isnt worth the effort. Im using the chemex everyday now, v60-01 reserved for a situation where I only have 7-15g of a coffee left and I dont want to bin it. >16g gets used as an espresso


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## MWJB

MWJB said:


> I've had stonking pourovers at any where from 2 to 7 minutes. Are your V60s overextracting? I find when I hit on an ideal dose, I get quite a leeway on useable grind, even "works" with a Kups!


I did a quick experiment today, selflessly putting myself in the firing line ;-), to highlight my perceived notion of dose vs grind...

Cup #1 - 12.6g dose 210g water added, 30s bloom, one aggressive filling pour not going right out to/washing down the edge of the cone, a little gentle dribble in the middle for the last few g of water (OK, lowest common denominator technique, pretend I've never made a pourover before, just followed manufacturer's promo vid) ground at 6 on the Rocky, about as fine as I have ever gone. Result, a well extracted cup...perhaps higher side of normal, caramely flavours, muted juicy fruit, no bitterness, certainly not overextracted. A pleasant, rich cup.

Cup #2 - Same proportions & method as above, only change - ground at 8 (one full turn out) on the Porlex. Result, a very nice cup, highlighted the fruit better, low side of "normal" by taste, I got the feeling TDS might have been a shade higher on this one. I'd be happy to pay money for either cup, but preferred #2.

I didn't time either. Both were quick, ~2min?

I noticed that the finer grounds (#1) didn't float up & line the walls of the filter as well, I guess this is down to the fact that they get waterlogged quicker, perhaps there was an element of bypassing around the top of the cone, perhaps bringing down the TDS a shade, maybe saving the cup from overextracting? Coarser grinds (#2) gave a much more even coating around the cone, but a lumpier bed.

Now I'm not saying grind/time doesn't matter (could have gone coarser and undoubtedly underextracted, I just used the grinders at the setting they were already on), I'm not saying this is the perfect technique, nor that I'm representing the coffee in a way that will particularly please Tom, Dick, or Harry...just that life can be a lot easier when you can ascertain at what kind of dosage your cone works well at. I guess I tend to look at them a little like espresso baskets, with a nominal g dose, in that respect. Once you're in the ball park, then fine tuning your method, to bring out what you specifically want, is up to you.


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## Earlepap

Interesting. Is that the V60-01 you were using? The only decent cup of coffee I've had in the last couple of days has been using the V60-01 and it was a rush job using no discernible technique. Usually I get less than favourable results using it.

The rest of the time I've been scratching my head over the CCD. Radically altering grind size, trying two pour/steep techniques, different waters. All results strangely homogenised, and almost an entire bag of Kebel Konga washed - which is supposed to be amazing - wasted. I'm beginning to go off the thing.


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## MWJB

Hi Earlepap,

Mine is the Tiamo version of the 01, but I find the same principle applies to any of my pourovers (Hario Cafeor, generic 2 & 3 hole cones).

Are you still using the permanent filter and paper filter combo in the CCD? I don't know whether it would be wise to try permanent filter only, for risk of getting grit in the CCD mechanism & associated extra maintainence...but I'd be tempted to give it a go? I think the CCD is great when dialled in, but there's always a degree of "lag" with the paper filter at drawdown. Alternatively, how about mounting the CCD above the cup/carafe at drawdown (brewstand, upside down Aeropress funnel, or Aeropress body might be less hazardous, just something to trip the valve...over the draining board - not actualy tried this!) & taste the output, in the cup, to see if you get any clues as to when to kill the process, rather than wait til you're all done & disappointed?


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## MWJB

Well, I was just going to make a moka pot brew, then I thought why not try the paperless CCD method, on the brewstand, to see where I could improve/learn anything.

Learning #1 - Have an idea, then think it through, think it through again, sleep on it...if it still looks like a good idea in the morning, maybe give it a go! ...After thinking it through one more time...

I tried the Nick Cho idea of killing the brew with a Swissgold filter lifted out at the desired moment (determined by tasting off the top), then I thought I'd drain over the brewstand and lesiurely taste at intervals...of course, with no filter paper (Cho, very wisely, uses a paper & a Swissgold), I put the CCD full of brackish liquid on the stand and "whoosh"! Six seconds later it's all in the carafe, coffee, sediment & all. Hmmm.

Poured the result into an Aeropress & filtered it into a cup. The coffee is actually delicious...and a CCD was used at one point!









I'll try again tomorrow with a filter paper.


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## fatboyslim

Bah I made a couple of pretty bad v60s this morning. Not really sure what happened.

Brews drained in ok time but were massively bitter. Going to try a coarser grind and perhaps a gram or more higher dose.

What temperature water are you guys using and have you found it makes a big difference? I'm thinking too hot water would produce bitter coffee?

Really uncertain where my grind should be


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## MWJB

Today I've had touble getting anything over 91C transferring from electric kettle to pouring kettle, but usually aim for 95C start.

I'd go more than a gram or two up on the dose, try nearer 24g? Break down the process, your coffee can't start out overextracted, it only gets that way by putting more water through it. Before it gets to the stage that it is massively bitter, it will have first been massively sour, about right, spot on, then a bit bitter...then massively bitter.

Grind fine, pretty much on the cusp of espresso. Are you doing a single pour, 2 stage...? Maybe try along the lines of the SQM method but break it down in to 3 or 4 pours, the first 2 with the bulk of the water, then the last 2 being a few tens of g each, very gently in the middle of the bed. Taste between the final pours.

There will be a point where your dose, grind, time, brew ratio, extraction yield all dovetail but in the mean time take the factors on individully, start with dose & flavour, then strength (don't fret about not having put the full litre per 60g through the grinds, nice but strong can be diluted until you perfect things) worry about time last. If your coffee is massively bitter the time can't have been OK, with the amount of brew water added....one of which needs adjusting & flow of water is the bigger driver of extraction, over time.


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## tribs

I've been getting good results in the V60-01 with the following

15g grinds - almost espresso (

Water 95C or just below (1/3 evian with 2/3 ultra soft tap or Tesco Clearview)

Bloom with 15-30g covering all grinds running down sides of filter to get edges and leave for 30-60 secs.

Start the clock. Pour with narrow spirals bringing the surface just above all grinds and pause (return kettle to heat) let bed fall a little then repeat.

Stop at 250-60g and allow to drain. I don't get too hung up about time but I aim for at least 3 mins. 2:30 isn't too bad but lacks sweetness and body (under-extracted)

Control of flow really helps consistency with the tiny v60. Brews with a flow restrictor have been far better than without. Maybe too much agitation with such a small bed.

With Chemex (larger dose, coarser grind) I prefer a faster flow, ideal would be just a little less than the Buono without restrictor.


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## fatboyslim

MWJB said:


> Today I've had touble getting anything over 91C transferring from electric kettle to pouring kettle, but usually aim for 95C start.
> 
> I'd go more than a gram or two up on the dose, try nearer 24g? Break down the process, your coffee can't start out overextracted, it only gets that way by putting more water through it. Before it gets to the stage that it is massively bitter, it will have first been massively sour, about right, spot on, then a bit bitter...then massively bitter.
> 
> Grind fine, pretty much on the cusp of espresso. Are you doing a single pour, 2 stage...? Maybe try along the lines of the SQM method but break it down in to 3 or 4 pours, the first 2 with the bulk of the water, then the last 2 being a few tens of g each, very gently in the middle of the bed. Taste between the final pours.
> 
> There will be a point where your dose, grind, time, brew ratio, extraction yield all dovetail but in the mean time take the factors on individully, start with dose & flavour, then strength (don't fret about not having put the full litre per 60g through the grinds, nice but strong can be diluted until you perfect things) worry about time last. If your coffee is massively bitter the time can't have been OK, with the amount of brew water added....one of which needs adjusting & flow of water is the bigger driver of extraction, over time.


Ok I'll try a greater starting temperature. At the moment I'm using 17g into 280g in a v60 2 cup, drained in about 3 minutes to 3 minutes 30 seconds. I really can't believe a near-espresso grind could be used? I tried going finer and think it resulted in my massively bitter cup. I usually hang out at the coarser side of things for this brewer, slightly different to Hario v60 2 cup.

I'll try hotter water, increased dose but a similar coarse grind and see what happens. No way an 17-18g of near-espresso grind is going to drain in 2-3 minutes? Suppose I could experiment.


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## Earlepap

Arf. I've a lot of thoughts going through my head about these posts but I'm too drunk to write anything cohesive. Tomorrow.


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## MWJB

OK, I have a theory on the CCD...it even makes sense after a night's sleep too...;-)

What is different about the CCD, compared to most brewers, is that the coffee steeps & is then again forced through the bed of grounds by gravity (rather than poured off the top as with a French press). This is also common to the Aeropress, which also has something of a reputation for reliable but perhaps slightly bland brews, not "bad", but perhaps lacking complexity, compared to pourover. So what runs down through the grounds bed is coffee, not water (OK, I accept there is a degree of infusion in a pourover), so unless the whole lot is under extracted, are we still getting those "undery" components that are part of the make up of an alternative brew method?

A good extraction is typically a balance of under, middle & over extracted (not talking % Ext Yield, but rather the components that make up that yeild), are we perhaps surpressing the initial issue (fruitier, livelier, more acidic components) with the CCD, by forcing them through the bed again, picking up later components on the way through?

This morning's brew: 20g grinds (8 on Porlex), 333g water (91.5C...damn this weather). Bloom 30s, add remainder of water to the CCD, light stir to ensure all grinds are saturated & straight onto the cup, let half (or so) drain immediately.

Remove CCD from cup, now taste the remainder off the top, until undery flavours subside (about 2:30 after removal from cup in my case), put the CCD back on the cup & let draw down as normal.

I have a balanced but very dynamic cup, loads of juicyness, but also an underpinning of bitternerness (as in good, balanced bitterness, but no astringency as in "over" bitterness).

Unfortunately only have 1 CCD, so I can't A/B against regular technique. But the CCD hadn't been getting a lot of love lately, I was getting good, sweet-ish, extractions but they often seemed to have muted acidity, I sort of fell out with it after brewing some Rwanda Cyiya (from James Gourmet which was bright, sweet, juicy, grapey acidity in other methods) and it just came out sort of generic, flat.


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## fatboyslim

Interesting stuff! Do you prefer CCD over a v60 style brewer MWJB?

I was a big fan of the CCD before I had a pouring kettle but now the only brewer I use is the v60.

I used much hotter water this morning and got significantly better results. No bitterness at all, just sweet peaches and brown sugar (Oporapa). Nice coarse grind also.

Going to start playing around with the micro adjust slider on the Preciso to fine tune the grind.

Can't see myself going back to the CCD any time soon so maybe you could borrow it MWJB for your comparison


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## MWJB

fatboyslim said:


> Interesting stuff! Do you prefer CCD over a v60 style brewer MWJB?
> 
> I was a big fan of the CCD before I had a pouring kettle but now the only brewer I use is the v60.
> 
> I used much hotter water this morning and got significantly better results. No bitterness at all, just sweet peaches and brown sugar (Oporapa). Nice coarse grind also.
> 
> Going to start playing around with the micro adjust slider on the Preciso to fine tune the grind.
> 
> Can't see myself going back to the CCD any time soon so maybe you could borrow it MWJB for your comparison


I like the CCD (regular techniqe) for convenience, when dialled in, fill, steep, drain (worked well in the office, until more people started drinking coffee and it couldn't produce enough beverage)...not so much "real time" involvement as a pourover, but flavour-wise prefer a good pourover (particularly the V60 Cafeor permanent filter), even if they can be more variable. I mostly use the 01 with a simple technique (12.5g dose, one pour, into a lined 1/3 pint glass), when I'm not necessarily looking for the pinnacle, more a quick hit...more likely to use the Aeropress, but like to take my time with the Hario Cafeor (just seems more "transparent"). Sowden Slowbrew replaced the CCD at work. French presses always get the first look in on a new coffee.

But I'm quite excited about this 2 stage draw down technique with the CCD - give it a go, you may decide to keep it? I probably have enough brewers...well nearly ;-) - I can see me sticking with it...until I get bored & want to try snatching defeat from the jaws of victory with a different brewer ;-)


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## garydyke1

After playing with the chemex day in day out I have come to realise that I'd never had a CCD brew which fully expressed what a coffee had to offer. Chemex is king. But why? It baffels me to say the least.

I need to pull the v60-01 off the shelf and give it a bash, I think i'll be let down however by a one-dimentional cup. Theres a lot to be said for sticking to one brewer, tweeking and tweeking for months to land on the best method which gets good results with all different types of coffees.


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## Earlepap

garydyke1 said:


> Theres a lot to be said for sticking to one brewer, tweeking and tweeking for months to land on the best method which gets good results with all different types of coffees.


Agreed. I've a number of brewers and the only one I'm pretty much guaranteed to make a great cup of coffee with is the french press!

Gary, do I remember correctly that you use Waitrose Essential mineral water for brews?


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## MWJB

Earlepap said:


> Agreed. I've a number of brewers and the only one I'm pretty much guaranteed to make a great cup of coffee with is the french press!
> 
> Gary, do I remember correctly that you use Waitrose Essential mineral water for brews?


For one, maybe 2 cup brewing, I'd agree the French press has a great strike rate, but I have found that large quantities can have a considereable variation from 1st cup to last. I wonder whether dimensions of the press affect this too...I favour lower & wider presses over tall thin...but that could be my imagination/power of suggestion ;-)

I'm finding for larger brews (

Gary, have you tried the Chemex with a Hario filter paper? Or vice versa? If the paper is a difference between Chemex & other pourovers("a difference", not all the difference), and we are using similar lighter papers in things like the CCD/V60, can they be improved on that front?

I'm going to try the CCD with Swissgold, paperless, again tomorrow...with the staggered draw down, see what that yeilds.

I don't need a Chemex, I don't need a Chemex, I don't need a Chemex, I don't need a Chemex....y'know what? I reckon I need a Chemex!


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## tribs

MWJB said:


> I don't need a Chemex, I don't need a Chemex, I don't need a Chemex, I don't need a Chemex....y'know what? I reckon I need a Chemex!


You don't own a Chemex! Well, I've lost all my respect for you.


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## Earlepap

MWJB said:


> For one, maybe 2 cup brewing, I'd agree the French press has a great strike rate, but I have found that large quantities can have a considereable variation from 1st cup to last.


My FP is an 8 cup I think. I think it's so consistent because of the minimal agitation and fines sinking. What brew method I use usually comes down to how much I'm making and what I can be arsed to do.

Several people = FP or maybe Chemex though once I go above 500ml the strike rate falls.

Myself = Chemex if I'm feeling thirsty. CCD for two cups. AP or V60 for one cup.

That said, I do believe there's usually a brew method a coffee will shine more in over others. Also, I think faffing around with so many different methods for each new bag of coffee means I'm wasting a load on half-good cups. Resolution: choose one method for every new bag of coffee and stick to it exclusively. That'll get the most out of each coffee and hone each brew method more. Jack of all etc. etc.

P.s.

I can't believe you don't own a Chemex.


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## fatboyslim

I also want a chemex but if I buy one won't I have wasted all the money I spent on other brewing methods if they are far superior?

Going to ignore chemex for now while I'm enjoying my v60.

Just getting back onto the topic of grind comparison. I took my Preciso to pieces yesterday and found the screw which holds a section of the adjustment ring in place wasn't screwed in far enough (my fault).

I screwed in it really tightly and made a slight calibration change. Grind now seems so much more consistent and I'm grinding finer but with good drain times. Brews tasting yummy.

If anyone uses a 2 cup v60 or has experience of one, how much coffee do you use? I'm using 17g even though I know 21g is probably the ideal dosage.

That would make too much coffee for me to drink.

I agree that its probably a waste of coffee trying to get good brews in several different brewers with one bag of coffee. Stick to one and get it spot on. Sometimes that can take the whole bag....Doh!


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## MWJB

Earlepap said:


> That said, I do believe there's usually a brew method a coffee will shine more in over others. Also, I think faffing around with so many different methods for each new bag of coffee means I'm wasting a load on half-good cups. Resolution: choose one method for every new bag of coffee and stick to it exclusively. That'll get the most out of each coffee and hone each brew method more. Jack of all etc. etc.
> 
> P.s.
> 
> I can't believe you don't own a Chemex.


I hear you loud & clear on the "faffing with diffrent brew methods front"! Couldn't agree more.

P.s...If you saw my brew bar, it would take a good half an hour to do an inventory on the brewers, before you came to that same conclusion! ;-) It's already got a bit out of hand...but I guess there's room for a little one! I had avoided the Chemex as I like to taste as I go, but you can't fight the inevitable...it's, like, as if it's always going to happen...


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## garydyke1

Earlepap said:


> Gary, do I remember correctly that you use Waitrose Essential mineral water for brews?


Blended 50:50 with Brecon Careg...


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## Earlepap

fatboyslim said:


> I also want a chemex but if I buy one won't I have wasted all the money I spent on other brewing methods if they are far superior?
> 
> Going to ignore chemex for now while I'm enjoying my v60.


Nah I think they all offer different qualities to the cup. I'm only messing around anyway











garydyke1 said:


> Blended 50:50 with Brecon Careg...


I ask because I recently started using the Waitrose Essential mineral water (a funny string of words - how essential can mineral water be?), and have been getting some weird tastes - vaguely spicey notes with a sticky mouth feel.


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## MWJB

fatboyslim said:


> If anyone uses a 2 cup v60 or has experience of one, how much coffee do you use? I'm using 17g even though I know 21g is probably the ideal dosage.
> 
> That would make too much coffee for me to drink.
> 
> I agree that its probably a waste of coffee trying to get good brews in several different brewers with one bag of coffee. Stick to one and get it spot on. Sometimes that can take the whole bag....Doh!


Here's a thought, if your V60s are overextracting you may be getting >22% of that 17g in your beverage (3.74g TDS). If you go up to 22g and you are on the edge of 'under', say 17%, that's the same amount of dissolved solids in your drink. 19.7g (you could round that off to 20g) dose will also give the same extraction yield in "g" at 19% extraction.


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## garydyke1

Earlepap said:


> I ask because I recently started using the Waitrose Essential mineral water (a funny string of words - how essential can mineral water be?), and have been getting some weird tastes - vaguely spicey notes with a sticky mouth feel.


Pass! I havent tried it 100% by itself - the ph and mineral balance would be way off the ideal standard

As espresso 100% it seems to work OK if I have run out of Brecon , i'm currently running 75:25 in Brewtus. 50:50 would be too high a TDS for myself as a descale-aphobic


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## fatboyslim

I'm using Waitrose Essential Mineral Water for my brews but mostly due to it being the cheapest at Waitrose.

Gary how far off is it to ideal pH?


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## Earlepap

Here's the SCAA water standards guide - http://www.scaa.org/?page=resources&d=water-standards

The Waitrose Essential falls in the acceptable range of each category if not target. With the exception of having too low calcium hardness by the looks. Highland Spring has a more desirable TDS but is about 3 times more expensive?


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## garydyke1

This is where water blending can help you achieve near the ideal at a reduced cost


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## jimbow

fatboyslim said:


> I also want a chemex but if I buy one won't I have wasted all the money I spent on other brewing methods if they are far superior?
> 
> Going to ignore chemex for now while I'm enjoying my v60.
> 
> ...
> 
> If anyone uses a 2 cup v60 or has experience of one, how much coffee do you use? I'm using 17g even though I know 21g is probably the ideal dosage.
> 
> That would make too much coffee for me to drink.
> 
> I agree that its probably a waste of coffee trying to get good brews in several different brewers with one bag of coffee. Stick to one and get it spot on. Sometimes that can take the whole bag....Doh!


Go on, you know you need one! I must admit, my wife always laughs at my brewing kit: aeropress, french press, v60-01, v60-02, v60 Fretta, Kalita Wave 155 and Chemex 1-3 cup (oh and some Kalita Kantans) I never use the french press and only really use the aeropress when on the go. I find that the v60 is highly affected by pouring technique and allows more control during the brew and the Chemex, Wave and Kantan are pretty forgiving. Taste profiles for all the brewers are also different and emphasise different flavours/notes.

In the v60-02 I tend to use 30g ground coffee with 500g of brew water. This will yield approximately 440g of coffee (two small mugs). You could actually brew the same quantity in a V60-01 - the only real differences between the two sizes of brewer are the size of the hole at the bottom (which I find makes no difference in the v60 because the hole is so big anyway) and the capacity of the filter cone. Generally speaking I would suggest using the smallest size you can get away with as this allows you to get the kettle closer to the coffee bed.

Larger brews are generally more forgiving as any inaccuracies in dose, brew ratio, etc. will be smaller in relation to size of the resulting brew.


----------



## MWJB

jimbow said:


> Taste profiles for all the brewers are also different and emphasise different flavours/notes.QUOTE]
> 
> I'm certainly not disagreeing, but I sometimes wonder how much of these profile differences are driven by the way we use the brewers, rather than specifically the brewers themselves? I mean, if I ran out of V60 papers and used a Chemex paper in it...would the brew be identifiably one or the other? If I extracted the coffee in a French press and filtered it through a V60...? If I used a CCD, or an Aeropress as a straightforward pourover...?
> 
> EDIT: For example, I just made a CCD brew with a permanent filter and a 2 stage draw down (drain half immediately, the other half after a couple of minutes steep), it is just like a French press brew...full of suspended solids & everything!;-) No, seriously, I should have been more patient & ground coarser, but the body & mouthfeel, acidity says French press...I don't recommend this method (I'll be sticking with a filter paper from now on), but curiosity got the better of me...again...
> 
> But I guess my previous question is more about, does the coffee from a certain brew style taste the way it does because of what the brewer does, because of grind (surface area of the grinds & effect on extraction) or because of what the filtering takes out...or a combination...?
> 
> Aah, so many brewers, so little time, so MUCH caffiene to A/B all the variables!
> 
> Jimbow, have you ever done 30g in an 01?


----------



## garydyke1

MWJB said:


> Jimbow, have you ever done 30g in an 01?


lol 8g is about as big a dose as I go in the 01

I recall a Nick Cho post where he believed (at the time) that each brewer (Anecdotally) had an optimum dose


----------



## garydyke1

MWJB said:


> Gary, have you tried the Chemex with a Hario filter paper? Or vice versa? If the paper is a difference between Chemex & other pourovers("a difference", not all the difference), and we are using similar lighter papers in things like the CCD/V60, can they be improved on that front?


Ive not tried a Hario paper in a Chemex as yet, I only have 01's in stock.

I think part of the magic of the Chemex is the paper. 1 side with 3 layers , the opposite only 1. On paper (lol) it should be a disaster in the cup!


----------



## fatboyslim

After getting more consistent with my technique and trying a few different coffees I can generally say that my Tiamo v60 2 cup tends to emphasise certain flavours.

At first I'd say more caramel but this is too much of a generalisation. Think I'm lacking some flora aroma from my nice tasty Monmouth Kenyan but that could just be my technique.

Grinding finer now and doing a larger first pour (~130ml) to achieve a total brew time around 3.30

Literally so much scope for unwanted variables and inconsistency with this technique. It does produce excellent cups however.

Anyone been where I am and have any tips for improving consistency and don't say buy a chemex.


----------



## jimbow

Buy a Kalita Wave!







Just kidding.

This to me is the blessing and curse of the v60 - the level of control you have over the brew but also the scope for inconsistency. The best way is to find a technique that is consistent and easy to reproduce. Try to keep the kettle as close to the coffee bed as possible. I find the technique demoed on the Terroir coffee site fairly easy to reproduce. Also, scaling up quantities can help reduce the impact of inconsistencies.


----------



## jimbow

MWJB said:


> ...
> 
> Jimbow, have you ever done 30g in an 01?


I have never gone to 30g, I think the highest I have gone in the 01 is 24g which definitely worked better in the 01 than the 02 with my technique. Generally, with all other things being equal, I find using the smallest v60 brewer possible tends to work better as you can get the kettle closer to the coffee bed.


----------



## jimbow

garydyke1 said:


> lol 8g is about as big a dose as I go in the 01
> 
> I recall a Nick Cho post where he believed (at the time) that each brewer (Anecdotally) had an optimum dose


Interesting. I think with brewers like the Chemex and Wave this is definitely true where different sizes of the brewer have different geometries. For example the single cup Chemex uses a relatively tall, narrow coffee cone where as a larger Chemex has a wider, more open cone.

The v60 is quite different however in that the larger 02 brewer simply extends further than the 01 but both have identical geometries in the lower section of the cone. The 02 does have a larger hole at the bottom than the 01 but since the 01 hole is so big anyway I don't think this actually makes any difference in practice.

I think that the resulting cup from each brewer is a product of the brewer, filter and required technique plus grind, dose, etc. Different characteristics of different brewers require different techniques e.g. ridges on the walls to hold the paper away and the sizes of the holes on the bottom (and hence the inherent resistence of the brewer).


----------



## garydyke1

All said and done , I still have not had a single chemex brew that needed to be thrown down the sink - every one has been 'quite nice' as a minimum ranging up to 'better than from a top-end London coffee shop'....the same cannot be said for my v60 brews.

Infact I might be nice and give my v60-02 to my brother who is just getting into coffee


----------



## Earlepap

fatboyslim said:


> Think I'm lacking some flora aroma from my nice tasty Monmouth Kenyan but that could just be my technique.


Which Kenyan did you go for? I picked up some of the Karatina today - it's pretty tasty. Lots of peach or apricot in it, though a little hint of roast that I usually find with Monmouth coffees.


----------



## fatboyslim

Earlepap said:


> Which Kenyan did you go for? I picked up some of the Karatina today - it's pretty tasty. Lots of peach or apricot in it, though a little hint of roast that I usually find with Monmouth coffees.


Bah I asked for the Karatina but I really got served by the stupidest person ever. I expected to be offered some advice on my bean selection but I actually ended up giving myself advice and educating her about coffee growing regions *sigh*

I ended up with the Kanguna which is nice but I wanted the more fruity Karatina. I would agree it looks a little dark but was surprised how un-roasty it tasted.


----------



## lookseehear

I had a v60 from Notes today of SqM Ethiopian deri kocha - absolutely top notch! Maybe it was down to the uber boiler/grinder combo but it looked like it was a carefully crafted cup. Floral and tea like - reminds me of Wote - but had a kind of fruity aniseed note. Well recommended. I need to get back into brewing as I've been drinking exclusively espresso/Capp for a good couple of months.

My parents dropped of my behmor and hasbean greens today (left it at home after xmas!) so I'm going to be roasting primarily for brewed.


----------



## garydyke1

Just made a stonker of a V60-01. Exactly the same technique as my Chemex brew but on a tiny scale and much quicker , it requires full usage of my kettle mod for super slow flow of water

8.5g coffee, fine drip grind

140g input water

30 seconds bloom with 15g water

deliberate pour stirring the coffee, bringing the tide level up to 100g water added on the 1 min mark

Then a super slow trickle in the middle with remaining 40g, maintaining the tide mark

Alow to drain , finishes at 1min 55 seconds ...left with perfect cone

I though this particular coffee was dead 3 weeks post roast but this brew showed otherwise


----------



## fatboyslim

I just had to post this video.

The first 'quick' technique is simply superb


----------



## lookseehear

I've been wasting so much time with drawn out pours - v60 will never be the same again!


----------



## fatboyslim

Whilst that super speedy technique is genius, some of us may have longer than 10 seconds.

I notice he mainly pours in the centre and hardly touches the edges of the 'crust' until right at the end.

Have people tried this technique? I usually try to pour centrally then spiral outwards to the edge.


----------



## MWJB

I tried a bunch of techniques yesterday, exploring how coarse I could go in the 01 (the answer being not quite as coarse as I have it right now!).

I think he keeps the pour central (little circles) because the water level is kept low...spiralling out has more scope when filling the cone more, even then you'd avoid the edge of the cone & bypassing. Nick Cho's technique gave a fairly good result even with my very coarse grind, better than one filling pour (overextracted some grinds, but a fair bit of bypassing so the cup was weak), but a half fill with a constant gentle pour in the middle worked very well too (little sign of bypassing)...but i wasn't really trying to get a perfect cup, just exploring the outer limits.

Really, we look at a lot of these pouring techniques as defining the brew...as long as you don't get obvious signs of bypassing around the cone, your water is hot enough & all grounds are reasonably extracted...we should be looking more at overall level of extraction, maybe as the brew progresses, rather than adding finite amounts of water & tutting and sighing after the event.

I have no sympathy for anyone who severely overextracts a pourover (given a reasonably even extraction), because they had ample opportunity to stop before that happened.

One thing I did notice with a coarse grind however was a marked layering effect in the coffee glass, I could actually see the darker, richer, sweeter components in the bottom 2 inches of the glass.


----------



## tribs

I pour central with both chemex and v60.

Straying towards the edges leads to bovril type over extracted flavours for me.


----------



## garydyke1

I only stray towards the edges for the deliberate stirring of the grinds immediately post bloom. after that, bang in the middle, even for the raising of the coffee 'tide'


----------



## MWJB

Just tried a couple of V-60s with Chemex papers...complete game changer! Worth a try if you're getting frustrated with V60, grind coarser as the Chemex paper really holds back the brew. A turn out on the Porlex is about as coarse as I can get a good brew from with the V60 papers (though I'd normally be skirting around espresso grind), 3 or 4 more clicks out with the Chemex paper.


----------



## fatboyslim

MWJB said:


> Just tried a couple of V-60s with Chemex papers...complete game changer! Worth a try if you're getting frustrated with V60, grind coarser as the Chemex paper really holds back the brew. A turn out on the Porlex is about as coarse as I can get a good brew from with the V60 papers (though I'd normally be skirting around espresso grind), 3 or 4 more clicks out with the Chemex paper.


This is surely interesting. Which size chemex papers? 1-3 cup chemex papers fit in my v60 2 cup? I'd be interested to give this a try despite just buying 80 new Tiamo v60 papers lol.


----------



## MWJB

FC100 papers for the larger Chemex (6/8/10cup). Mind you, next experiment might be a comparison with "double bagged" V60 papers...? I'm going to have to work on a "knock-out tournament" between the various papers & filters, too many permutations & caffiene for a day's work!


----------



## fatboyslim

Produced a pretty watery tasting cup this morning. Clearly some bypassing going on but not sure why as I poured mainly in the centre.

Also tried to keep the water level low and had a bit of a constant pour going on. Clearly one of these things is bad.


----------



## forzajuve

MWJB said:


> FC100 papers for the larger Chemex (6/8/10cup). Mind you, next experiment might be a comparison with "double bagged" V60 papers...? I'm going to have to work on a "knock-out tournament" between the various papers & filters, too many permutations & caffiene for a day's work!


Thought I would give this a go this morning having been struggling a bit with my V60-01. 13g in 200g at what I would call a medium sand grind (coarser than normal) with two V60 filter papers. WINNER! This was the best I've done yet, time wise it was bang on 2mins for reference but this was such a sweet brew it was perfectly balanced. Buttery fudge all the way, even more as it cooled. Beans were the smokeybarn geisha. Not sure how this would compare to the Chemex papers (I only have the large ones) but would recommend giving this a go for sure.


----------



## Earlepap

Short video here on Hario and their new auto-v60 machine: http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/english/tv/greatgear/archive_greatgear_20130118.html

Quiet interesting if you can bear the voice over.


----------



## fatboyslim

I wonder how much it costs


----------



## MWJB

fatboyslim said:


> Produced a pretty watery tasting cup this morning. Clearly some bypassing going on but not sure why as I poured mainly in the centre.
> 
> Also tried to keep the water level low and had a bit of a constant pour going on. Clearly one of these things is bad.


Could you see any patches where the grinds were washed off the wall of the filter? Was there much "sploshing" going on? If the bed is too churned up by the pour, they may not be getting washed through enough? After I get to my fill level, I really try and drip the water in from the kettle, pouring the brew water on to the water in the cone already, rather than trying to pour it on the grounds?

@Forzajuve - 6/8/10 cup Chemex papers will sit in a 01 cone, looks a bit daft, but functions.


----------



## tribs

I'm wondering, did you still used the 3 fold to 1 with the FC100 filter in the v60?


----------



## MWJB

tribs said:


> I'm wondering, did you still used the 3 fold to 1 with the FC100 filter in the v60?


Indeed, I did. Yes....is that 10 characters minimum for post length? It is now!


----------



## fatboyslim

Arrrgh what is going on! Another generic type brew from what was the fantastic wote yirg.

I wonder if these beans just fall off the flavour cliff 2 weeks after roast?

Going to try grinding finer and see what happens.


----------



## garydyke1

Come on Mark , video yourself producing these below par brews. We would all be happy to rip you apart ; )

Alternatively get a chemex - jump right in the water is lovely and warm.


----------



## fatboyslim

Me and Nick are going to have a live-brew off on skype using the same beans roasted on the same day!

Its going to be intense. If I can find a way to film from my laptop that would make things easier.


----------



## MWJB

fatboyslim said:


> Arrrgh what is going on! Another generic type brew from what was the fantastic wote yirg.
> 
> I wonder if these beans just fall off the flavour cliff 2 weeks after roast?
> 
> Going to try grinding finer and see what happens.


Did you try "double bagging" with a coarse-ish grind?


----------



## tribs

fatboyslim said:


> Arrrgh what is going on! Another generic type brew from what was the fantastic wote yirg.
> 
> I wonder if these beans just fall off the flavour cliff 2 weeks after roast?
> 
> Going to try grinding finer and see what happens.


Definitely not. 4 weeks+









I tried double v60 papers with David Vilca this am. Was able to go way coarser, although not quite coarse enough. Gonna have another go even coarser and see what happens, but it looks promising.

On another note, I finally got round to picking up another wire type (fast reacting) Ktype TC for my TM-902C (the original is used on my PID) and measured the brew temp. I was surprised to find that my starting temp of 95C got me nowhere near ideal brew temp (below 80C after bloom). It got progressively warmer but only topping out at a max of about 90C


----------



## fatboyslim

MWJB said:


> Did you try "double bagging" with a coarse-ish grind?


I will try but are you sure you aren't in league with the filter paper manufacturers? You've surely just increased their sales 100%....

I'm on to you!


----------



## tribs

fatboyslim said:


> I will try but are you sure you aren't in league with the filter paper manufacturers? You've surely just increased their sales 100%....
> 
> I'm on to you!


After having my first go at this, I reckon you can re-use the outer one


----------



## fatboyslim

2 papers yielded an interesting cup! Different profile to previous one but flavours tasted slightly muted (as with previous).

May clean my burrs and have one last attempt later. I can see why 2 papers may be beneficial, like the notches on the inside of the v60, it allows optimum extraction, minimises bypassing(???) and provides doubly filtered goodness.

Will re-use the outer paper and attempt again later.


----------



## garydyke1

Is the double bagging for a cleaner cup which allows a coarser grind due to more resistance?


----------



## tribs

Well, I tried again and still too fine a grind, but nice enough, if leaning toward over. The bottom of the cup was delicious though.

This brew temp thing is bugging me though. I upped starting temp to 97C and this time couldn't get above 87C. After bloom start of pour was still under 80C.

I am starting to wonder whether you need a closed system (Brazen or Technivorm) to get proper brew temp for brewed coffee. Maybe I just need to position the probe better.


----------



## fatboyslim

Or you need an uber cosy for your pouring kettle!


----------



## tribs

garydyke1 said:


> Is the double bagging for a cleaner cup which allows a coarser grind due to more resistance?


A thicker paper, a la chemex. Slower draw down and coarser grind.


----------



## tribs

fatboyslim said:


> Or you need an uber cosy for your pouring kettle!


Do you know if Mike is still able to supply them?


----------



## tribs

Double Post

It keeps doing this when I 'post quick reply'

Do you want to leave this page?

It's a bit confusing


----------



## MWJB

garydyke1 said:


> Is the double bagging for a cleaner cup which allows a coarser grind due to more resistance?


Yeah, basically, the idea being more resistance so that a coarser grind can be used, a more Chemex-like profile?

I was reading a bit by Nick Cho the other day where he said that a coarse grind can be preferable, as this can allow more of the surface area of the grinds to be washed out, before you get to the overextracted core, resulting in a sweeter brew. Struck me that this is one of the differences between Chemex & the typically finer V60 grind with one V60 filter paper (which can often give a rich, but sometimes generic brew?). Mind you, I haven't tried it yet, I've just been sticking Chemex papers in the V60... Aaargh, the herecy!


----------



## tribs

Last time I made a chemex. While rinsing the filter, I thought I detected some fragrance. Was I imagining it? Maybe part of the magic.


----------



## fatboyslim

***Sigh*** I guess the logical conclusion is to get a Chemex...

Might offer my v60 as a cheap/donation to some forum member....


----------



## MWJB

fatboyslim said:


> ***Sigh*** I guess the logical conclusion is to get a Chemex...
> 
> Might offer my v60 as a cheap/donation to some forum member....


Noooo! Well, yes, if you want. But I'd persevere...whatever is going wrong with the V60 may still go wrong with a Chemex unless you identify it & correct it. Start with the Chemex papers...

Give us a breakdown of what you are doing (apologies if you already have...it's a long thread now)...

Do a 3 stage pour (say 80g/l, 70g/l 60g/l), taste after each stage, see if this gives you any clues?


----------



## MWJB

I just did a back to back with my 01s...

#1 Espresso grind, 1 filter paper.

#2 medium/coarse drip, 2 papers.

Both had a similar sweetness at the bottom of the glass. #2 needed more water put through to hit the same sweetness at the bottom ~58g/l, #2 more like 70g/l (I figured a similar extraction by flavour more important than trying hit same brew ratio with wildly different grinds). #1 more even from top to bottom, but darker flavours, muted acidity, perhaps more generic to start with? #2 less distinct to start with, lighter, juicier, clear banding with darker elements at the bottom, more sudden transition to sweetness. I could probably improve the #2 cup going finer...neither was a fail. I preferred #1, but I think it possible others may have preferred #2. Neither was anything like the Chemex paper in the 01 (which I preferred over either, more even brew & clarity with the same coarse grind as #2). I think the 2 paper trick could give you a little wiggle room if your 01 grind is 'a little' on the coarse side, it definitely holds back the brew water noticably better than 1 V60 paper. But it's not a silver bullet.


----------



## forzajuve

Just to add to the confusion, today I did a double bagged V60 with the folds on opposite sides. This created an oval shape during the brew and was about 30secs longer than with the filters lined up with other parameters the same. Wasn't as good as with the previous method but may be able to go coarser to compensate. Still need to try the chemex to compare.


----------



## MWJB

Aha!...more variables! I did mine at 90deg to each other ;-)


----------



## forzajuve

Findings so far on the filter options:

+ Double bagged Hario V60 filters (folds aligned) - 2mins really sweet tasty brew with buttery toffee notes.

+ Double bagged Hario V60 filters (folds opposite) - 2mins 30secs not as sweet still some toffee notes.

+ Chemex large filters - 2mins 15secs sweetness greatly reduced flavour notes lost in the cup.

General points:

Could go coarser on the grind for both the opposite v60 filters and the chemex. Suspect the issue with the chemex was the additional disturbance due to height of paper above grinds, although I did tear down one side it wasn't ideal. Greatest resistance was with the double bagged where folds were on opposite sides (180deg to each other). I will see if more can be gained out of this method with a coarser grind.

Same grind setting, dose, brew ratio and temperature for all brews with aimed for same pour technique, slightly affected on chemex due to height.

The double bagged brews were both superior to those I have achieved with the same beans using the single V60 filters. Chemex paper needs chopping down and/or replacing with the smaller version.


----------



## MWJB

I just tried again with 1 paper vs 2, common grind (fine drip?), same output from both cones, definitely noticeably more sweetness with the 2 filter papers (aligned folds), as Forzajuve found. Not so much to suggest a different brewer, but certainly a method for tweaking the brew.

I just bent down the filter edge with the kettle spout when using the Chemex paper. Think this might be better in it's own dedicated thread?


----------



## Earlepap

forzajuve said:


> Aimed for same pour technique, slightly affected on chemex due to height.


What was your technique?


----------



## tribs

MWJB said:


> I just tried again with 1 paper vs 2, common grind (fine drip?), same output from both cones, definitely noticeably more sweetness with the 2 filter papers (aligned folds), as Forzajuve found. Not so much to suggest a different brewer, but certainly a method for tweaking the brew.
> 
> I just bent down the filter edge with the kettle spout when using the Chemex paper. Think this might be better in it's own dedicated thread?


It'd be easier for others to find I suppose, but there has been quite a few posts so far on this topic.

I had used opposite ends for the folds in both my brews and it seems results were similar to yours and forza's. I thought that I should have pushed more water through than the standard 60g/L in both brews too. I am not sure whether to go coarser or try the 'folds aligned' that produced the best cup for Forza.


----------



## forzajuve

Earlepap said:


> What was your technique?


Technique was a slow steady pour after initial bloom. I aim for same amount of water to coffee for initial bloom, min 30secs, more if required from outgasing. Then slow poor in the centre only to push out the bloom until it reaches a natural even level. From there slow and low with central spiral out to just away from the edge. I try to keep the level as constant as possible.

As I say I think the chemex paper results were more down to my technique as I didn't have as much control from greater height.


----------



## Earlepap

I tried using two filters with the fold opposite sides. I couldn't notice any difference in the cup. It was quite rancid to be honest; tasted of green olives. Under-extracted I suppose. My technique sounds similar to Forza's - bloom with water double the weight of coffee then slow and low pulses verging on continuous pour.

Then I had a beautifully sweet and juicy Aeropress. Good old Aeropress.


----------



## tribs

I've been playing with Nick Cho's pulse pour technique. The one shown on his vid for if you have more than 10 seconds







. I've had some pretty tasty V60's with it. My conclusions are that I can actually go way coarser than I could ever have dreamed of with the V60. Single filters seem best as double slows things down too much.


----------



## fatboyslim

Hmm not sure if I'd call my technique a proper pulse pour but I try to keep the level within a small range so end up pouring quite often.

I made a 30g into 560g water 2 cup brew the other day and whilst tasting slightly muted I did end up with a fantastic bouquet of flora flavours totally unlike any brews I've had using 17g.

Think the bulk of grinds lead to a more even extraction overall. Not sure what total brew time should have been though.

Only moved the grind a tiny bit finer from where it was for 2 cups and made a brew with 17g today and the result was excellent. Pretty happy now









Coarse and slow pour. 30 second bloom. 3:15 brew time.


----------



## jimbow

How much water do you use for the 17g brews?


----------



## fatboyslim

17g coffee into 280-285g water in less than 2.40 and its all drained by about 3:00 - 3:30 with 30 second bloom.

Interestingly this Cyiya from Workshop actually tasted horrible and roasty and over extracted then a minute later after it had cooled 5-10 degrees or so it tasted heavily.

Pretty insane how that happened. Makes me thing temperature is more important than pour technique to a small extent.


----------



## MWJB

fatboyslim said:


> 17g coffee into 280-285g water in less than 2.40 and its all drained by about 3:00 - 3:30 with 30 second bloom.
> 
> Interestingly this Cyiya from Workshop actually tasted horrible and roasty and over extracted then a minute later after it had cooled 5-10 degrees or so it tasted heavily.
> 
> Pretty insane how that happened. Makes me thing temperature is more important than pour technique to a small extent.


I have also wondered whether we sometimes get undesirable flavours that stem from lighter components of the brew, which float to the top & evaporate after a few minutes too? One reason why I like to do the odd test with a steel straw to evaluate the brew at different depths, at the same temperature (reasonably same temp at least).


----------



## jimbow

I often find bitter tasting flavours are more prominent at higher temperatures and acidity comes to the fore as coffee cools. I recall reading once this was related to the way we perceive flavours and how different tasting compounds bond more readily with different taste receptors at different temperatures. I could have completely got that wrong however.


----------



## tribs

fatboyslim said:


> Hmm not sure if I'd call my technique a proper pulse pour but I try to keep the level within a small range so end up pouring quite often.


I try to not let the level rise at all. As Cho suggests, maintain the bloom throughout. This ends up as lots of tiny pours. Almost impossible without my flow restrictor (AP filter).



fatboyslim said:


> Only moved the grind a tiny bit finer from where it was for 2 cups and made a brew with 17g today and the result was excellent. Pretty happy now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coarse and slow pour. 30 second bloom. 3:15 brew time.


Sounds very close to my current method, but I feel I need to go coarser and with a shorter brew time. I am about 4 mins right now.


----------



## forzajuve

tribs said:


> Sounds very close to my current method, but I feel I need to go coarser and with a shorter brew time. I am about 4 mins right now.


That was the issue I found with the Cho method, I am now between a pulse and Cho so I can constantly add small amounts but at a slightly fuller level. Works well with a fairly coarse grind for total time 2-2.5 mins.


----------



## fatboyslim

forzajuve said:


> That was the issue I found with the Cho method, I am now between a pulse and Cho so I can constantly add small amounts but at a slightly fuller level. Works well with a fairly coarse grind for total time 2-2.5 mins.


Does that total time include bloom? I'm slightly confused about total time.


----------



## fatboyslim

So thought I'd try a definite 'technique' today using some month old HB wote yirg.

Pouring only in the centre and keeping the crust intact until right at the end...a la Nick Cho.

Pretty frequent and small pulse pours, brew finished around 3:15.

This is a cup of Bassetts Liquorice Allsorts. Its absolutely fantastic! I think this coffee actually improves 3 weeks or so after roast!

Will try this technique with other beans, trying to remove variables from my technique. Grind was a bit finer than I used for the more fresh Cyiya.


----------



## forzajuve

Yes I include bloom within the total.


----------



## tribs

fatboyslim said:


> This is a cup of Bassetts Liquorice Allsorts. Its absolutely fantastic! I think this coffee actually improves 3 weeks or so after roast!


I'm glad someone else thinks this. I finished a bag of wote at around 4-5 weeks and started another freshly roasted straight after and the older one was way better, IMO. I find the same with lots of beans actually, SM Jirmi, HB Loayza, HB Kebel Konga to name but a few. I know I keep banging on about it









That's the technique I have been using, but I need to get my brew time down (grind coarser). I will give it another try tomorrow.


----------



## jimbow

Completely agree although I notice we seem to be enjoying lots of the same coffees! Could it be related to the coffee?

Mark, was it the washed or natural Wote Yirg you were brewing?


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## fatboyslim

That would be the natural. Very tasty coffee from 1 week right upto a month past roast but totally different flavours!


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## tribs

In a chemex it's so so fruity


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## MWJB

Maybe my pulse pour technique needs a lot of refining (certainly possible), but is anyone brewing into a glass, rather than an opaque vessel? What do you visually see with regards to concentration in the glass & does this have any bearing on taste? How does this compare to a "filling pour" (with gentle top up if necessary)?


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## fatboyslim

Wow! Double filter paper v60 with a coarse grind and started pulse pouring to preserve crust but then got bored and filled continuously till end.

Still Workshop Cyiya but this time I'm getting buckets of sweet rhubarb (as per the cupping notes) and candied lemon. Double filter method clearly has merit!

EDIT: Just a note as I continue to drink this fantastic cup, there is not even hint of overextraction or any unpleasant flavours that occasionally linger in the mid-cup. This is just a cup of sweet tasty rhubarb!

EDIT2: Finished what was probably the best v60 I've made to date (thanks 2 paper method, 2PM for short). I'm now just interested in anyone that has tried chemex papers in a v60 (2 cup), does it fit well and could it potentially be snipped down to a better size to allow better pouring? Might give it a try.


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## garydyke1

fatboyslim said:


> Wow! Double filter paper v60 with a coarse grind and started pulse pouring to preserve crust but then got bored and filled continuously till end.
> 
> Still Workshop Cyiya but this time I'm getting buckets of sweet rhubarb (as per the cupping notes) and candied lemon. Double filter method clearly has merit!
> 
> EDIT: Just a note as I continue to drink this fantastic cup, there is not even hint of overextraction or any unpleasant flavours that occasionally linger in the mid-cup. This is just a cup of sweet tasty rhubarb!
> 
> EDIT2: Finished what was probably the best v60 I've made to date (thanks 2 paper method, 2PM for short). I'm now just interested in anyone that has tried chemex papers in a v60 (2 cup), does it fit well and could it potentially be snipped down to a better size to allow better pouring? Might give it a try.


You are describing with similar enthusiasm which I experienced with my switch to chemex ; )


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## MWJB

Interesting occurence today, which may have some relevance to V60 type papers & subsequently the brew..

I made a Sowden brew of Columbia El Paraiso this morning, extracted to taste, grounds removed, drank some freshly made & have been going back to it since about 11:30 this am. It was pretty much stone cold for the last 2 hours, still delicious: chocolatey, sweet & citrussy. The Sowden does leave some silt, so as not to waste the last glassful I secondary filtered through a V60. Different coffee entirely to that I tasted just minutes before (also cold) straight from the Sowden. Sweetness & acidity very much more muted, darker flavours (choc, caramel & "coffee") now. I have been making pourovers with this coffee too and this glass tastes to all intents & puposes as if the extraction was done in the v60.

So, extraction apart (grind, time, pour technique) it strikes me that part of what we percieve as "V60 profile" (assuming a ball-park extraction yield) might be as closely linked to the paper in what it keeps out of the cup? Oren Bloostein has a theory that the Chemex paper lets more into the cup because although the paper is thicker, the weave is looser, allowing more through.

Tomorrow's experiment will be a Sowden brew & comparison from the pot vs secondary filtering via V60 with regular paper vs secondary filtering via V60 with Chemex paper.

Shame I've run out of the Paraiso now though ;-(

Anyone done a back to back "filling pour" vs "pulse pour" into a glass yet? I have & know what I am seeing & tasting, just curious as to what others are finding...(in case my technique is somehow flawed)?


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## Earlepap

That would fit with my findings of the V60. Accepted that I've never settled on a technique, even the best brews have highlighted darker flavours and muted acidity and fruit.

I just made a 500ml/35g french press and then split the brew between a V60 and Aeropress to compare what's filtered out. The V60 is visibly much clearer, with the AP being cloudy. Aromatically they're pretty similar, though the V60 seems to have a little more going on. Taste wise they're not very different either surprisingly. I was expecting to find way more acidity in the AP but it's marginal at best. Probably didn't help that the original FP was under extracted. I had a cup of each and for shits and giggles mixed the remainder together to make a F/APV60 brew which quelle surprise tasted of a muddy mix of everything.

I'll try again later with a properly made FP but for now I've drunk about a litre of coffee. I'm thinking that there wasn't much difference in the cups since the poorly extracted original FP brew didn't have the requisite mid-late ext. components for the V60 to remove. One things for certain: neither the V60 or AP remove woody/grassy/pithy flavours.


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## MWJB

MWJB said:


> Tomorrow's experiment will be a Sowden brew & comparison from the pot vs secondary filtering via V60 with regular paper vs secondary filtering via V60 with Chemex paper.
> 
> Shame I've run out of the Paraiso now though ;-(
> 
> Anyone done a back to back "filling pour" vs "pulse pour" into a glass yet? I have & know what I am seeing & tasting, just curious as to what others are finding...(in case my technique is somehow flawed)?


Brazil Fazenda Passeo, #1 extracted in the Sowden, #2 Sowden extraction filtered in a V60 with V60 paper, #3 Sowden extraction filtered in a V60 with Chemex paper. Each glass was poured a bit at a time & rotated between glasses, to eliminate any bias in case the coffee had different character at different layers. All pretty much gave a good representation of the coffee, based on tasting notes.

#1 - Sowden - Most acidity, softest mouthfeel, hazy, palest in colour.

#2 - Sowden extraction, then V60 secondary filtered with V60 paper - Least acidity & sweetness, dark, reddish brown coloured, driest flavour more towards darker choc. More "austere"? Hardest mouthfeel.

#3 - Sowden extraction then V60 secondary filtered with Chemex paper - More reddish in colour, lighter than V60 filtered, darker than the straight Sowden...(I'd guess the more the oils that get through the lighter the coffee in colour, all other factors being equal). Flavour-wise closer to the Sowden but less acidity, rounder & smoother, slightly less creamy mouthfeel.

Rinsing the filters the Chemex paper drained far faster than the V60 paper, similarly the Chemex filtered the Sowden brew quicker, until both filter cones stalled with 5-10g in the bottom.


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## fatboyslim

I've been experimenting with really controlling the level of the bed whilst pouring in v60. Low bed = better coffee is my conclusion. Using 17-18g in a 2 cup v60, may not be designed for this low dose but the best tasting cups have been from having a low bed for much of the brew.

I'm pouring centrally but I can't help but wonder whether the top layer of the outer crust which isn't getting water poured on it isn't really getting extracted?

Also brew time sub 3:20 is tending towards more balanced cups.

Thoughts, comments, carrots, horse burgers?


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## MWJB

What is your definition of a "balanced cup"? Just interested as to whether you feel it is a cup that balances 2 or more definite components well, or a cup that is fairly even from top to bottom?

As to the crust edge...I see the point on evenly extracting each of the grounds in the cone (I'm certainly not going to contradict it, or the low water method in general) but I also think an even result in the cup is just as important (to me at least). In short, if your first sip is tasty & so is the last, why beat yourself up worrying about a few grounds in the cone? ;-)

I have gone the opposite way, I tried low water levels but was getting big variations from top to bottom of the cup...probably not pouring consistently enough? A big filling pour (and gentle, continuous topping up to desired volume) seems to give me a more even cup.

I guess it depends on what you're aiming for.


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## Earlepap

MWJB said:


> I have gone the opposite way, I tried low water levels but was getting big variations from top to bottom of the cup


Isn't that inevitable with a pour over? Without a stir I mean.


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## MWJB

Earlepap said:


> Isn't that inevitable with a pour over? Without a stir I mean.


Apparently not. I mean there may be minor change from top to bottom, but the last few I have made have been very even, barely perceptible difference from first sip to last. No stirring. I am typically making 180-190g cups (glasses) from 11-12g dose, so maybe I'd expect a bigger variation on larger brews?

I'm not saying I haven't made enjoyable cups with a low water approach, just that they have started off light & bright, with a sudden & distinct slug of sweetness & juicyness in the last 3rd. Trying the Cho style approach, I even noticed something like a sneeze where after blooming & starting the pour there was a "dollop" of coffee expressed from the cone ...I accept that there is room for improvement in my technique, but even going more to a halfway house with a more consistent but slightly higher level in the cone gave a similar result. You can even see the clearly defined strata in the glass. At first I thought it was related to the coarser grinds I was using with Chemex papers, rather than fine grinds with V60, but it definitely seems more linked to pour technique, as I was getting it with either grind?

Again, I'm not saying that this large variation in the cup (if you get it at all) is a "fail", just that I feel a bit cheated having to wait for the "good stuff" ;-)


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## fatboyslim

My old thread so I have no shame in digging it up.

I recently saw the video posted below and since following this technique and using a slightly finer grind each one of my brews has been fantastic, second judged by my gf.

Simple but really emphasizes the importance of pouring straight down centrally.


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