# Isomac Millennium, a bit of a project



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Saw the above on ebay and decided to take a punt. Was sold as not working but the guy said it powered on. Decided to take a risk so here I am!

Seems that isomacs aren't particularly popular through no other reason than a bit average. An e61 HX that seems a reasonable step up from my Classic.

I picked her up this evening and managed to take the panels off (not the best designed, tricky). Seems it's had a little leak from the water tap where the pipe connects to the tap at the rear. I'm not sure of damage. Seems to have missed most the electrics.

Does anyone know where I might be able to get spare parts from?

Copper pipes from taps to boiler, are they likely to have any washers/seals that will need replacement or are they likely compression fit?

The lever on the group head is a little squeaky/stiff. Will this just need greasing or is it worth servicing with one of those service kits? (Seen a generic on on bellabarista's site)

Any pointers and advice would be appreciated.

My first steps will be strip down and descale.



















Said leak.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

LFSpare Parts do Isomac: http://b2b.lfspareparts724.com/public/minicataloghi/Espresso-coffee-machines-ISOMAC_201708181213_lf.pdf

But they are B2B only so you would need to know someone with a VAT number.

Edit: The LF Isomac catalogue actually seems a little limited, so maybe not the best place for parts in any case.


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

The leak is from a compression joint, probably a brass cone or could be an olive. Undo ,clean up and retighten, possibly use a touch of water approved jointing paste or a turn of PTFE (plumbers tape).

Strip and clean the E61 brew head and check components for wear, check seals and for wear on the cam and the valve stems. If any suspect get a kit

BUT keep all old components and carefully check valve stems for differing lengths against new ones. Do not forget Molycote 111 or other suitable lubricant.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Dylan said:


> LFSpare Parts do Isomac: http://b2b.lfspareparts724.com/public/minicataloghi/Espresso-coffee-machines-ISOMAC_201708181213_lf.pdf
> 
> But they are B2B only so you would need to know someone with a VAT number.
> 
> Edit: The LF Isomac catalogue actually seems a little limited, so maybe not the best place for parts in any case.


Thanks for the link. Not sure what you mean about limited? Seems pretty comprehensive catalog of parts.

You are right though, might not be able to order from them. I guess I could call and ask if they can point me towards a retailer. The only one I've found is Ferrari Espresso, though they only have limited parts.

I noticed that you can get the newer cool touch steam taps in that catalog. The ones on this one seem go left and right but with no forward and backward movement. I wonder if I could retrofit those newer versions?


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

El carajillo said:


> The leak is from a compression joint, probably a brass cone or could be an olive. Undo ,clean up and retighten, possibly use a touch of water approved jointing paste or a turn of PTFE (plumbers tape).
> 
> Strip and clean the E61 brew head and check components for wear, check seals and for wear on the cam and the valve stems. If any suspect get a kit
> 
> BUT keep all old components and carefully check valve stems for differing lengths against new ones. Do not forget Molycote 111 or other suitable lubricant.


Thanks for the tips. Will do that.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I used to quite like em, needed to use the right technique to get the case on and off, those front slide in bits







I am sure it will soon like like this inside. One I reviewed and took apart in 2005. Remember a lot of the spares don't have to be the same e.g. don't put the same pressurestat back, use a MAT-TER XP110 instead. I expect yours is the same year and presumably uses a Prolind autofill controller box inside. Hopefully that's not failed, because it might be difficult to source with the correct type and using a Gicar may require a few wiring changes. You also need to find a few neons, in fact replace them all because you are more likely to get a better match. good luck with the project, yours will soon be looking as good as new inside.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I just meant from looking at their other catalogues which seem to organize everything machine by machine. It may well just be that Isomac have a much more limited number of machines or they have just better organised their catalogue with fewer pages still covering all machines.

Long story short, if it looks like everything is there to you then it probably is.

It may be worth emailing espressounderground as he can often pick up parts that aren't on his website. I always found him quite pricey however but c my hurt to ask once you know what you want/need.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Dylan said:


> I just meant from looking at their other catalogues which seem to organize everything machine by machine. It may well just be that Isomac have a much more limited number of machines or they have just better organised their catalogue with fewer pages still covering all machines.
> 
> Long story short, if it looks like everything is there to you then it probably is.
> 
> It may be worth emailing espressounderground as he can often pick up parts that aren't on his website. I always found him quite pricey however but c my hurt to ask once you know what you want/need.


Thanks for the tip on espressounderground.

I emailed that supplier this morning and they gave me a company called Temperature Control Solutions. Doesn't sound much to do with coffee but I'm sure i'll find out.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> I used to quite like em, needed to use the right technique to get the case on and off, those front slide in bits
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Dave. I read your review on it a few weeks ago and noted the tricky sides. They are tricky but came off fine.

Regarding your point about the pressure stat, is that just the what they use on their current Millennium machine or just an equivalent but better model?

The autofil box, is that the big controller or one of the two (what look like) solenoid valves. Mine came with the plumbing to have it connected to mains water. Not entirely sure how to revert it back, whether I'm missing any parts to do that. Also no manual!

I think I remember from your review that BellaBarista used to sell them and had a better manual for use? Do you think they'd let me have a copy if I asked?


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> I used to quite like em, needed to use the right technique to get the case on and off, those front slide in bits
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Once thing I have just realized is that I don't think I had the fill switch on the bottom of that S shaped panel, that the water tank sat on. I wonder whether that had been omitted because the plumbed in option was installed. I was hoping to run it off the tank for a bit.

Do you think the braided hose could be submerged in the water tank to work the same way?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I would use the pressurestat I mentioned, because i think it's a better stat, have no idea what they use now....you may need a thread reduction adaptor, but I think the stats sold by BB for QM have that. Yuours may have been changed, or it may still have the rather horrible CEME stat in it like in the one in my photo.

I can't remember about the plumb in options, it my be a custom job. If you had photos of what you have not and the pipework Imight be able to tell you, but at the moment I have no idea what your internal hydraulics look like now? Of course you would need to reinstate the low water level switching and you should check for any other wiring "changes", especially around limit stats etc...


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> I used to quite like em, needed to use the right technique to get the case on and off, those front slide in bits
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Once thing I have just realized is that I don't think I had the fill switch on the bottom of that S shaped panel, that the water tank sat on. I wonder whether that had been omitted because the plumbed in option was installed. I was hoping to run it off the tank for a bit.

Do you think the braided hose could be submerged in the water tank to work the same way?


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Nice machine, I have restored one similar to this recently. Full stainless steel (304) 2mm thick body that is something you won't see on lots of expensive machine. Plenty of parts for VBM/Isomac online.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

L&R said:


> Nice machine, I have restored one similar to this recently. Full stainless steel (304) 2mm thick body that is something you won't see on lots of expensive machine. Plenty of parts for VBM/Isomac online.


That would be a Tea then, the Mill body isn't that thick. Tea was almost armour plated though.


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Actually yes, Tea. I though all Isomacs are similar sorry.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> I would use the pressurestat I mentioned, because i think it's a better stat, have no idea what they use now....you may need a thread reduction adaptor, but I think the stats sold by BB for QM have that. Yuours may have been changed, or it may still have the rather horrible CEME stat in it like in the one in my photo.
> 
> I can't remember about the plumb in options, it my be a custom job. If you had photos of what you have not and the pipework Imight be able to tell you, but at the moment I have no idea what your internal hydraulics look like now? Of course you would need to reinstate the low water level switching and you should check for any other wiring "changes", especially around limit stats etc...


Struggling to get concrete info but I believe the plumbing option was offered by Isomac, going from a few forum posts on other forums. I'm going to have more of a look this evening. Will take some pictures of the plumbing, kinda difficult to see but simple enough. Seems its just a solenoid and a braided hose.

From a cursory look last night the only electrical concerns I had was, what seemed like a loose earth (yellow/green stripe). It looked like it was supposed to be attached to the boiler on a captive stud. No nut there, I guess it was vibrated loose. Will get that replaced. Worried me a little as the chap turned it on to show it was "working", i guess there are other earthing points. It has leaked a little but seemingly missed electrical points.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

L&R said:


> Actually yes, Tea. I though all Isomacs are similar sorry.


the Tea (left) was an early design with (If I remember correctly a big thick wraparound case) and yes it was about 2mm thick, really heavy. I think the Isomac Relax Automatica on the right (which I actually really liked, made great shots, crema you could almost walk on) also had a thick case.


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

To walk on Crema nice







, and yes that is almost the same frame as mine.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

[duplicate]


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

So I've got Home to have a tinker. I'm just moving the little black control box out the way to get a better view of the plumbing.

Before I did that I thought it be worth firing it up to see what's what. I filled a jug and put the water feed and what I assume an overflow or over pressure pipe into the jug.

Turned it on and it started pumping. It did seem to be just pumping back through the clear tube. What does this indicate?

I took a video but not sure how to attach on the app! But here is a yt link http://


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

First of all detach the power from the heating element, it will burn w/o water, and second check the solenoid for filling the boiler.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It could indicate many things.


Boiler is trying to fill, but pathway is blocked, so most coming out the expansion valve

Expansion valve is maladjusted

expansion valve is faulty

Solenoid valve is activated to fill group (bad wiring)

Switch behind group lever is bad/activated, but without lever raised nothing can go anywhere except thru expansion valve


On the bright side the pump seems to work and it has not tripped the RCD (you are using an RCD arn't you).


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

[another duplicate]


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> It could indicate many things.
> 
> 
> Boiler is trying to fill, but pathway is blocked, so most coming out the expansion valve
> ...


Awesome. So what would you say would be the best course of action?

It seems very scaled as there is a lot of scale deposits around the joints of pipework so I'm hoping it's just a scaled something blocking water flow.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

If it's really scaled I would think about a full strip down so you can get all the various plumbing in a descaling bath and be able to see when it is completely clean.

It will also teach you most of what you need to know and how to follow the water path to diagnose the fault.

It is mostly just pipework and a little wiring. With lots of photos (or even better a video with a well mounted camera) to refer to getting it back together isn't too hard.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Struggling with the tapatalk app, uploading images don't seem working atm. Much frustration.

Anyway back to it...

I've been trying to figure out what the flow of water path is and what is along its way that could be blocking this. I don't have any kind of manual so it's a case of flicking between ferrari esspresso and their parts catalog to figure what these bits are!

So starting at the bottom:









You've got the pump at the bottom, a braided hose which connects to a t-piece, This tees off to a small solenoid, which then follows up to the "top" end of the boiler. I'm not sure if it fills from both ends or this has some other purpose (a return?)

Looking at the "top" end:









You can see where that feed, that comes from the tee'd off solenoid enters the boiler. The other bottom pipe goes off to the hot water tap and the large one goes to the group head so I guess is the feed of brew water. From what I understand of the E61 water is fed in the top, it cools and this action circulates the water out the bottom one and back to the boiler. So in that path there is only the solenoid, which could be blocked or as dave said, incorrectly wired. I don't have a wiring diagram so can't comment. I guess I could confirm its working order by powering it up to see if it doing what it's supposed to?

Back at the tee if you carry ahead on the water path it comes to that, t-shape outlet. Apparently a bypass valve. What would cause it to bypass, how does it work, on overpressure? Could be a culprit?

Either way this follows round to the bottom end to what I believe is the "fill probe". This is very scaly looking, you'll see on the photo:









The fill probe seems to go through the middle of another joint which looks like the return from the group head. Unless its absolutely furred up, i can't imagine the issue is there.

So far, I'm thinking possibly the by-pass valve, tho speculation until disassembled.

On the top of the machine there is an assembly that i'm also not sure of it purpose:









On the LH top side there is, what I think is an anti-vacuum valve (comparing in parts catalog) and then an tee off to a pressure switch. Looking closer to this pressure switch it has 2 out of its three terminals connected. Again, no idea if this is supposed to be like that:









The eagle eyed may notice also in the top LH corner is the green lamp. This only has one cable going to it. I can't find a loose one and not sure where it would connect up to in the loom. The mega eagle eyed may also notice, where the pressure valve screws onto that L-joint there is silicone and a little bit of PTFE. Looks like a bodged repair.

It would seem this has been repaired at some point and i'm not sure if it was done correctly or not. Is the lamp and the pressure valve connected in some way. Maybe, maybe not. A wiring diagram or comparison photos would be needed.

Dave, do you have any photos with clear shots of the wiring for that pressure valve?

Does anyone have any comments as to their thoughts on the above? (be gentle







)

All though I have no answers, been kinda fun to go through the flow of this machine to try and figure out possibilities for issues. At least its a bit clearer in my head, a course of action.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

I've just noticed on the first image the tank looks scored, as if put in a vice. Seeming to suggest prior repair attempts. The plot thickens.


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

If you google isomac millenium service manual, on of the top results is a bella barrista PDF.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

ashcroc said:


> If you google isomac millenium service manual, on of the top results is a bella barrista PDF.


Thank you!


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Recent development. Missing the thermal fuse!

I think someone's had a goood rummage.


----------



## Mattius2 (Aug 28, 2016)

Frank at Ferrari was super helpful ordering additional parts for me - just email him


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

I think I've found an electrical diagram.

I think I was right in that the green light is connected to the pressure stat.

Thermal fuse definitely missing. So odd.

Will have a proper look at it tomorrow.

If I have wiring missing, what replacement wire/cabling should I use that is suitable for high temp environments?

Nowhere seems to to replacement parts of the loom and the wires inside are all braided and I'm assuming some kind of high temp version.

Any pointers would be great


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Said diagram for Isomac Millennium


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Mattius2 said:


> Frank at Ferrari was super helpful ordering additional parts for me - just email him


Thanks for that. Will need to have a chat with them. Seem to have a good stock of their parts.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Don't think it is, check if you have a prolind box


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Don't think it is, check if you have a prolind box


When you say prolind box, do you mean the black controller box?

If yes, then it is the Giemme controller I have.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Pity, I don't think I can help with wiring then, mine had prolind box


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Pity, I don't think I can help with wiring then, mine had prolind box


Thanks anyway. I'll give the diagram i found a go, compare and see whether it matches up to what I have. Hopefully it will and I can fill in the missing parts.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Had a chat with Frank at Ferrari Espresso this morning. Very helpful chap (welsh too!), they've dealt with Isomac for 15 years (I think he worked with/for them for a while) so had some good pointers with regard to possible solutions to problems. Pretty much all the parts still available for it which is good to know.

He suggested a possibility the for the blockage scale or the overpressure valve which is that Brass T-shaped part. I was calling the By-pass valve (what they call it on their site). The barbed end of it can be twisted to change the overpressure level.









Seen here, with the silicon pipe attached.

Progress!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Just work through that list I gave you and you should find it.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Just work through that list I gave you and you should find it.


That's the plan.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Just work through that list I gave you and you should find it.


On the list is check expansion Valve. Do you mean the OPV or something else?

From what I can tell the vacuum valve is on the top of the boiler with the pressure stat. I guess the other one with the cup around it is some other kind of expansion valve?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

_shakeyjake_ said:


> On the list is check expansion Valve. Do you mean the OPV or something else?
> 
> From what I can tell the vacuum valve is on the top of the boiler with the pressure stat. I guess the other one with the cup around it is some other kind of expansion valve?
> 
> View attachment 35945


The expansion valve is what you are terming the OPV. On the top of the boiler from left to right is


The MA-TER Pressurestat (black), probably been replaced at some point as they used to copme with a CEME, so hopefully that will be working fine.

The vacuum breaker, doesn't look like it's stick open and if it closes OK and doesn't hiss constantly, that will be OK

The valve in the black phenolic cup is the safety valve, if the pressure in the boiler goes over 1.7 bar (probably that is the rating for that particular valve), it blows it's guts inside the machine and the cup is an attempt to keep it all in there. Would have been better to have the cup around the vac breaker tbh.


you mentioned the thermal fuse is missing...probably because it had a pressurestat problem, popped the fuse and they bypassed it. If they did, the safety probably blew it's guts...eventually they realised it was the pressurstat all along and replaced it. Of course not bothering to replace the thermal fuse.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> The expansion valve is what you are terming the OPV. On the top of the boiler from left to right is
> 
> 
> The MA-TER Pressurestat (black), probably been replaced at some point as they used to copme with a CEME, so hopefully that will be working fine.
> ...


Ah OK, Thanks.

It's annoying about the thermal fuse thought because I don't have the nut or the little metal piece that holds it against the boiler! Not available as a spare either.

Though, I had some old speaker terminals that have the same stud size so the little brass tab and nut it comes with, will work. It turns out keeping loads of crap comes in handy sometimes!


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Can I use the built in pressure gauge to set the OPV or should I be using a gauge on a portafilter?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

_shakeyjake_ said:


> Can I use the built in pressure gauge to set the OPV or should I be using a gauge on a portafilter?


It's a tricky one, the built in gauges can vary in accuracy, especially as they age (e.g. the bourdon tube inside em can crack etc..). Use it as a guide (if it steams up inside, it really may be worth double checking), but I always double check with a second portafilter gauge when I am reviewing and testing. I realise that people don't always have all that stuff..so just do what you can.

Just remember to account for water expansion during heating...ideally disconnect the heating terminals and check it cold.


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

On my old old Iso Tea pressure gauge and portafilter one show the same so blind basket will do the job.

BR


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

L&R said:


> On my old old Iso Tea pressure gauge and portafilter one show the same so blind basket will do the job.
> 
> BR


Just because a gauge on one machine is reading correctly doesn't mean a different gauge on another machine will be. It's worth checkong if you have access to a portafilter gauge just so you know where you stand.


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

As a starting point will be fine, of course having 3/8 gauge is a must for a coffee enthusiast.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Thanks guys. I do have a gauge that I used on my classic but the thread adapter was never great. I think I got the wrong size. So will need to sort that out.

I was just looking at the gauge on my machine. It sits at .2 bar when no pressure. So I'm not sure that'll be that accurate. Never noticed before!










Managed to strip down the boiler. Not taken out the element but seems to look OK in there. Pretty minimal scale. A little bit around the thread joint of the element inside but not much around the sides of the boiler tank.

Would it be worth removing the element, if not just to clean the thread of the scale on the inside and replace the seal?

Second question. Is there a better option than the stock OPV? I think it was fused stuck but I managed to crush the barb trying to turn it to see if it would! Could get the same again, I guess once it's set, not much need to fiddle with it.


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Grip the thicker shoulder not the reduced barb section. This also applies to any other fittings, grip the strongest part of the component.

It would also be better to soak scaled / corroded components if possible. Take care when undoing pipe unions / nuts that the pipe does not twist with the union/ nut. Small mistakes can cause major problems and incur substantial costs in new parts.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Is that boiler stainless or brass?

If its brass be careful when removing nuts - if they are scaled and hard to remove its possible to warp/bend the boiler walls reducing the integrity of the boiler as a pressure vessel.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Boiler was Nickel Plated copper on the ones I reviewed.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Yup, nickel plated copper this one.

I was careful, got all the pipes and elbows off. Where quite stiff but no problems luckily!

Soaked them all in some descaler. The elbows were more scaled than the pipes though I guess to be expected on 90° bends.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

El carajillo said:


> Grip the thicker shoulder not the reduced barb section. This also applies to any other fittings, grip the strongest part of the component.
> 
> It would also be better to soak scaled / corroded components if possible. Take care when undoing pipe unions / nuts that the pipe does not twist with the union/ nut. Small mistakes can cause major problems and incur substantial costs in new parts.


I tried the shoulder but just not enough to hold on to. Coupled with scaled solid it didn't last long.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Working on the Millennium today. Currently replacing the various seals on the group head.

Any ideas what these are for? Was part of the e61 service kit.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

She's back together. Plugged her in for the first time and watched for leaks. About three. One from the pressure gauge, which stoped with a tighten up. One from an elbow on the RH side, this might need removing and reapplication of ptfe. Came was a little loose on rebuild so was tempting fate tbh.

Anyone have any tips for first run things to look out for? Apart from leaks obviously.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Well, it's not a leak from a joint but rather from a the welded joint between the body of the tank and one of the threaded inserts.

Bit deflated. Seemed to be OK apart from that.

Need to figure out how I can repair this. Any suggestions?


----------



## nige2000 (Aug 5, 2017)

Look into brazing it maybe it could be done

Or solder


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Ah, that sucks - last thing you want when you have put it all back together.

As nige says, you will have to get it brazed, I expect that means you will have to take it all back apart again and take the boiler to someone who knows how to do so.


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

nige2000 said:


> Look into brazing it maybe it could be done
> 
> Or solder


Not solder. It'll need brazing to hold the pressure. On the good side it's how it was originaly constructed so should be an easy fix.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Cheers guys. Thought as much. I've got a friend that's a pretty decent welder. So will see if he can't sort it. Fingers crossed it can just be reflowed to seal it up.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Dylan said:


> Ah, that sucks - last thing you want when you have put it all back together.
> 
> As nige says, you will have to get it brazed, I expect that means you will have to take it all back apart again and take the boiler to someone who knows how to do so.


Yeah! I took most of yesterday afternoon carefully wrapping the threads in ptfe, so no leaks. Never mind eh!


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

This can be welded in minutes, don't give up. People that repair Fridges, AC, CNG installations do such things quite often.


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

It looks like a threaded fitting which may be hard silver solder or bronze welded to the boiler. This is NOT a DIY job or a friend who has a welder job.

It is not a soft solder job either or filler job.

I think the fitting may need removing, cleaning then re-welding

Remember it is a pressure vessel and needs to go to a professional welder. DON'T BODGE IT.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

El carajillo said:


> It looks like a threaded fitting which may be hard silver solder or bronze welded to the boiler. This is NOT a DIY job or a friend who has a welder job.
> 
> It is not a soft solder job either or filler job.
> 
> ...


Fully understand. He said he might be able to do it for those reasons. Got to strip back the nickel to find out what it's welded with. Then go from there.

In the situation he can't do it, who would I need to be looking for? Would a general welding place be able to do it or somewhere more specialised needed?


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Any where that specialises in welding will probably be able / suitable to weld it . Ask if they work on pressure vessels.

If the fitting needs to be removed, the boiler may/ will need to be immersed in water, being a copper boiler the heat required to release the fitting will rapidly spread throughout the boiler possibly disturbing other fittings.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

El carajillo said:


> Any where that specialises in welding will probably be able / suitable to weld it . Ask if they work on pressure vessels.
> 
> If the fitting needs to be removed, the boiler may/ will need to be immersed in water, being a copper boiler the heat required to release the fitting will rapidly spread throughout the boiler possibly disturbing other fittings.


Thanks. I did wonder how they would do it being copper. Tricky to do without the proper knowledge.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

I have the boiler side and fitting a sand back to better see what the damage is. You can see in the picture there's a crack running along its edge, on far RH side.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Check how much a boiler will cost if they still make the part.


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Boiler(SS one) is equal to the price of the machine >200GBP.

This crack can be fixed.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

L&R said:


> Boiler(SS one) is equal to the price of the machine >200GBP.
> 
> This crack can be fixed.


The SS one may not even fit as I doubt the pipes will be the same....pity. I hoped he might be able to get a boiler cheaply.



L&R said:


> This can be welded in minutes, don't give up. People that repair Fridges, AC, CNG installations do such things quite often.


*If you know anyone that can do the brazing for these repairs (espresso machine boilers) in minutes at a reasonable cost* I would be really grateful if you can post their details. I often get asked and I don't know of anywhere that does them in the UK. It would be a handy reference to have. Over 13 years ago I had to do a brass to copper repair. I was able to use a flux and silver solder for it and was able to sweat the silver solder into the gap and it fortunately dragged though. The amount of heat required was surprising as the copper sinks it away so fast...


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Ferrari espresso has in stock and copper/nickel one yet on the same price 2xx. I am not UK based Dave







.

What about so called liquid metal compounds?

https://www.jbweld.com/products/j-b-extremeheat


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Perhaps Ferrari will cut a deal....I can't imagine they have a lot of customers for those


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

I agree with Dave, if you can pick up a boiler at a very reduced cost that would be the way to go. Failing that.

Use a fine burr to clean off the nickel around the joint and along the crack and beyond (DO NOT THIN THE BASE / PARENT METAL ) show the full extent of the crack / damage. This will also show what welding material was used.

If all appears sound it should be possible to build a fillet weld along and around the crack using nickel or silicon bronze welding rod with flux.

With the boiler immersed in a bucket of water as low as possible.

I was speaking from long experience of gas welding aluminium manifolds, gearboxes, cast iron tools (planes) petrol tanks and numerous other items including fabricating car repair sections.

Anyone interested in welding/cutting equipment ? Eyesight not up to it now:bad:


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

I did come across those boilers on their website, hence going the cheaper for now route. I think spending £200 on a new boiler would make this not a very cost effective project, assuming second hand value around the £300-400 mark.

I think the submerged in water trick will be handy. Hopefully getting it done next week.

@DavecUK Not sure my friend takes commissions, tho he's never one to be idle so I will ask!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It will be brazed either with a flux, or special fluxless rod...the rods are bronze and quite a bit of heat is needed. I had a large propane torch and eventually that could just about do it...I no longer have it now. A DIY plumbers torch using a screw in bottle won't get hot enough....it's the brass fitting that has to get really hot for the brazing to stick. that one may have cracked away because it was either not hot enough, or weak and someone broke it undoing/doing up a fitting.

You "could" try cleaning it as @El carajillo suggested, personally I would use a small wire wheel on a dremmel and try and really get in the crack and around it....bring it right back to the copper and brass in the cracked area. get some silver solder (plumbers lead free) and some suitable flux. Heat it with one of those DIY blowtorches...don't submerge in water, that will drag too much heat away from a fairly weak torch......heat it really hot, I mean really hot and try and get some flux around it and into the gap. Then try and see if you can get some silver solder to sweat into there and a bit of build up to stick on the surface above the crack (which is why the area needs to be squeaky clean and well fluxed..)

The boiler only runs at 1.4 bar and the safety valve at about 1.7 bar.....so it doesn't have to hold a lot of pressure.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> It will be brazed either with a flux, or special fluxless rod...the rods are bronze and quite a bit of heat is needed. I had a large propane torch and eventually that could just about do it...I no longer have it now. A DIY plumbers torch using a screw in bottle won't get hot enough....it's the brass fitting that has to get really hot for the brazing to stick. that one may have cracked away because it was either not hot enough, or weak and someone broke it undoing/doing up a fitting.
> 
> You "could" try cleaning it as @El carajillo suggested, personally I would use a small wire wheel on a dremmel and try and really get in the crack and around it....bring it right back to the copper and brass in the cracked area. get some silver solder (plumbers lead free) and some suitable flux. Heat it with one of those DIY blowtorches...don't submerge in water, that will drag too much heat away from a fairly weak torch......heat it really hot, I mean really hot and try and get some flux around it and into the gap. Then try and see if you can get some silver solder to sweat into there and a bit of build up to stick on the surface above the crack (which is why the area needs to be squeaky clean and well fluxed..)
> 
> The boiler only runs at 1.4 bar and the safety valve at about 1.7 bar.....so it doesn't have to hold a lot of pressure.


I didn't think there wasn't much pressure in it. I think at PSI its around 30?

Either way, he's got all the welding equipment for braising (and experience) so i'm sure we'll sort it.

Just reet keen to get it all working! Interested to try out the steaming more than anything.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

She's alive! And kinda working! Progress!

No leaks so far after a repair to the boiler. A few weeps here and there but nothing a nip up didn't sort out.

Now I tried testing the pressure with my gauge on the portafilter with mixed results. It leaked quite a bit, even with a new filter seal in group. I had to REALLY tighten it round and managed to get a reading of 10 bar which is right?

Though I didn't notice when testing the pressure that water was running out of the group, out the spout that usually vents the pressure after shot. See:






Bit of a short video but essentially water was venting the whole time. What could this indicate?

I had replacement seals for the group head innards and replaced all the ones on the various piston type things. So unsure what the issue is? Could it be wrong reassembly?


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Something is wrong with lower valves(preinfusion and drain). They should be closed during extraction.

Can we see a picture of repaired boiler? Did you fix it easy?


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

L&R said:


> Something is wrong with lower valves(preinfusion and drain). They should be closed during extraction.
> 
> Can we see a picture of repaired boiler? Did you fix it easy?
> 
> View attachment 36358


Hey, thanks for that diagram, i'll disassemble the bottom section and compare to that. I have to admit I wasn't quite as careful as I should have been with keeping everything in order. I had a feeling it wasn't quite right but couldn't tell at the time.

The tricky thing I found was removing those threaded pins that hold the rubber seals to the brass pistons. 2 out of three were OK and unscrewed the last one sheared half way off. There was a little sub left so I hoped this would hold in place on what was left and also by the spring and that brass guide. Though I'm not sure whether I have that bottom spring and guide the right way round! Investigation is needed.

The boiler repair was OK. Not the tidiest but it won't leak any more! Will get some pictures up over the weekend.

[Not sure what happened with last nights comment, TapaTalk app seemed to go a bit haywire!]


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Might help

http://coffeetimex.wikidot.com/e61-group-servicing


----------



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> The SS one may not even fit as I doubt the pipes will be the same....pity. I hoped he might be able to get a boiler cheaply.
> 
> *If you know anyone that can do the brazing for these repairs (espresso machine boilers) in minutes at a reasonable cost* I would be really grateful if you can post their details. I often get asked and I don't know of anywhere that does them in the UK. It would be a handy reference to have. Over 13 years ago I had to do a brass to copper repair. I was able to use a flux and silver solder for it and was able to sweat the silver solder into the gap and it fortunately dragged though. The amount of heat required was surprising as the copper sinks it away so fast...


You could explore the model engineering steam engine / loco world.







Their boilers tend to run at higher pressures than espresso machines. There are clubs all over the place that may have some one about who is allowed to work on boilers also companies that produce them. They are a pretty safety conscious though so may take a dim view of repairs. In fact these days they have inspectors and boilers are checked. One exploded a while ago.

Actually the gear to do work like this could be bought for less than the cost of a new boiler but some knowledge would be needed. This is a decent video on silver / hard soldering. Brazing is something else. You wont find brass used in some places on these boilers only bronze. Soldering starts some way in.






One of the main aspects is not burning the flux off. Info on suitable grades of silver solder can be found on the web - model loco boilers. Sometimes 2 grades are used to avoid melting one when the other is done.

John

-


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

OK. Who can tell where the issue is...










Points for who can spot it.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

And are they a standard size so could anywhere that supplies E61 bits?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It's quite likely the broken bottom valve pin is jamming up and holding it open and/or the seal is knackered. Just buy the part, or an entire kit.


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

you have three bottom valves instead of two


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Aye that is the issue. One has been ordered.

I was hoping to be drinking coffee this weekend from it, no such luck.


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Always look on the bright side, how much you have learnt of HX E61 machines. This wouldn't have happened if you had bought a brand new machine. Cheers!


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Very much an ugly weld, but he said it flowed well around the insert so should be good. The boiler was pretty grim after the first water/flux had covered it so bathed it in a critic acid solution, which is why it looks so dark around the solder. Was nice silver before.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

L&R said:


> Always look on the bright side, how much you have learnt of HX E61 machines. This wouldn't have happened if you had bought a brand new machine. Cheers!


Exactly! I wanted a project and I got one.


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Speaking of experience coffee produced from a revived machine always tastes better


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

AYYooooo, Bella Barista coming through with the next day postal delivery!










Let's get this in and fingers crossed, I have a fully functional group!


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

This mornings repair sorted. I found upon re-assembly, it easier to put the lever cam in first, then the bottom assembly second. The first one round I had the top and bottom bits assembled first but was a bit of a pig to get the cam to go in. Lots of wiggling. This was was easier.










I'm just letting it get up to temp before trying a first shot. So far no leaks. You can hear the boiler quietly switching off and on. Boiler pressure currently is sitting at 1.2 bar. That said the gauge when not under pressure sits at .2 bar so I'm assuming pressure is actually at 1 bar.

What pressure should the boiler sit at on an HX machine, what is ideal?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

You shouldn't be using PTFE here


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> You shouldn't be using PTFE here
> 
> View attachment 36382


I was going for belt and braces approach. Beginners mistake!

What is the reason for not using it?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

_shakeyjake_ said:


> I was going for belt and braces approach. Beginners mistake!
> 
> What is the reason for not using it?


Because they are a compression fitting, it's fine where they enter the boiler, but not where the nuts screw on.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Because they are a compression fitting, it's fine where they enter the boiler, but not where the nuts screw on.


Ahh I see what you mean.


----------



## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

@DavecUK Can I ask you why you feel that the ptfe tape should not be used on the compression fitting ..

I have done loads of plumbing and it is normal practice to use a thread sealer on compression fitting on water and gas.. a thicker one on gas .. I have even seen plumbers put it over the olive on a problem fitting .. ever needed my self

i know a compression fitting should not need it as the olive should seal it.

just wondering what your concerns would be

Cheers


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Nicknak said:


> @DavecUK Can I ask you why you feel that the ptfe tape should not be used on the compression fitting ..
> 
> I have done loads of plumbing and it is normal practice to use a thread sealer on compression fitting on water and gas.. a thicker one on gas .. I have even seen plumbers put it over the olive on a problem fitting .. ever needed my self
> 
> ...


These are not plumbing type compression fittings and PTFE tape should not be used on them it actually doesn't help. Of course people should use whatever they feel is best on their own machines, I just thought I should mention it, a free pro tip if you like.


----------



## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

@DavecUK .. Thanks for the answer .. I take it there is a pre formed flange/flare like on hydraulic brake pipe ? which I agree I have never used ptfe on when making them up on brake pipes or gas fitting .. I don't supposed it would do any any harm just on the threads though.. pro tips always appreciated here .


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

So it's done.










I'm really pleased how it's turned out. All seems to be working OK and most importantly, the coffee tastes great! A noticeable difference between this and the Gaggia Classic.

The espresso's coming out of it are of a much more smother and less acidic taste that I found on the classic. Though could have been technique.

Steaming isn't blow your head off fast or powerful but it seems (on two attempts) much easier to get properly textured milk and produce something closer to latte art, which is nice. Just need to perfect the angle of the steam wand. It only has one direction of movement as it's not a ball joint type. That said I can move the angle at which the steam hits the milk surface, which is an improvement on the classics swivel.

Really enjoyed this project. Thanks very much for all the forum members that helped and commented.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

No real update for the ISOMAC at the moment but I've been passed a wiring diagram for the ISOMAC Millenium which seems much better than the one I found. I thought it would be handy to share.

A user on here called @Fredrik had to replace his control box in his ISOMAC Millennium and was supplied a Gicar model that is equivalent to what it originally came with and within came this wiring diagram.

My Millenium came fitted with a Giemme control box but they seem to be interchangeable. Of note, DavecUK's review machine had a Gicar control box from what I remember. So either they switched them around depending on manufacturing run or some other reason.

If you have a stock ISOMAC Millennium, without the mains water connection kit fitted, or have one fitted and want to revert back to a tank fed operation, it will be handy to have this diagram to revert the wiring. As well, if you re having issues with your machine and need to troubleshoot the wiring, this will be helpful!

Here's said drawing:









Edit: The image is quite small on here. My copy is much larger so just ping me a PM and I can message it directly.

Edit Edit: Heres a PDF. It's too large to attach but you can view/download it from my Dropbox. https://www.dropbox.com/s/whivsaxn0ggh9y6/Isomac%20Control%20box%20ProElInd%20to%20Gicar.pdf?dl=0


----------



## Marocchino (May 1, 2019)

Found reading your posts a good lesson in determination in seeing the job through to a final working machine, a good achievement.

I too have an Isomac Millenium and have owned it from new without too many issues. One expensive problem I did encounter though was having to replace the steam valve - a complete unit is available from Ferrari. The issue is that the valve is a non serviceable item and if they are overtightened, they eventually start to drip from when the machine is switched on. All users of the machine have since had the don't overtighten the valve talk after it's replacement - about 4 years ago and so far it's holding.

Hope you have as much enjoyment with it as I have had with mine.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Marocchino said:


> Found reading your posts a good lesson in determination in seeing the job through to a final working machine, a good achievement.
> 
> I too have an Isomac Millenium and have owned it from new without too many issues. One expensive problem I did encounter though was having to replace the steam valve - a complete unit is available from Ferrari. The issue is that the valve is a non serviceable item and if they are overtightened, they eventually start to drip from when the machine is switched on. All users of the machine have since had the don't overtighten the valve talk after it's replacement - about 4 years ago and so far it's holding.
> 
> Hope you have as much enjoyment with it as I have had with mine.


Thanks for the complement, nice to hear (read)!

I've heard of that issue before on the Gaggia Classics. I think because of the way the valve head or seat is designed it "cuts" into the brass seat and eventually wears it to the point the steam valve leaks. So always tighten minimal amount on steam and water valves. I think on the next machine, i'd love something with those joystick type steam and water valves. Look so much more user-friendly and quick to operate.


----------



## Nick1881 (Dec 18, 2018)

Great job with the repair, machine looks as good as new now.

Maybe you could mod it to joysticks, I've seen people do it on other machines though it's not cheap.


----------



## Marocchino (May 1, 2019)

When I got the replacement steam valve from Frankie at Ferrari Coffee, he mentioned that there was the option to go down the joystick valve route. The only problem with this mod is the steam wand would be incorporated into the joystick valve. The Millenium steam wand is separate from the steam control valve, so a bit of plumbing to do and blanking off of the original wand holes. In addition he mentioned the joystick valve would protrude quite a bit, so the overall look of the machine would change. As I was happy with how it looked originally I kept it stock.


----------



## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Nick1881 said:


> Great job with the repair, machine looks as good as new now.
> 
> Maybe you could mod it to joysticks, I've seen people do it on other machines though it's not cheap.


I did look into that. Wouldn't be complicated but wow they are expensive! Even the normal valves aren't low cost item but I guess can't be expected. For the money I've spent on it, probably not worth it. If I had got it for less might have been not so bad of an investment.


----------

