# Would you buy Used or Refurbished ?



## Spy (May 12, 2016)

Hi all,

I won't go into it again but my 4 year old De Longi ESAM 4200 has given up the ghost and I am looking to replace it with a new machine, as posted here: http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?31695-Bean-to-Cup

In reading reviews on Amazon, and through my own experience, it appears that irrespective of make (although some are better than others), these machines are not the most reliable and can suffer from a variety of issues that result in sub-standard coffee or failing altogether.

Given this, is it wise to look at used machines or maybe refurbished machines where I might get a better quality for machine in my budget ?

Thoughts and advice greatly appreciated


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

I would go for used especially from a member on here as most know how to look after their machines, other sites I think you are taking a chance but sometimes worth it...I bought expobar brewtus IV from e-bay and its in good condition and as described. Even a brand new machine can cause issues though you have a warranty.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Are you still looking at B2C machines, or have you decided on a more sensible option now? Personally I wouldn't buy a new or used or refurbed B2C machine...

What budget do you have?

What sort of coffee based drinks to you drink?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MrShades said:


> Are you still looking at B2C machines, or have you decided on a more sensible option now? Personally I wouldn't buy a new or used or refurbed B2C machine...
> 
> What budget do you have?
> 
> What sort of coffee based drinks to you drink?


Same, but it goes treble for a refurbished bean to cup. In all honesty, your probably better of going for a good used and/or refurbish yourself...rather than let someone of unknown skills "refurbish" it (what does refurbished even mean).


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## mike57 (May 3, 2016)

I've just this week bought a used Gaggia Classic and after minor cleaning am very happy. My son thought the espresso was so much better than anything he'd had before decided that he needed a 'proper' machine too.

He has just bought a refurbished bean to cup. It won't be statistically valid but I bet mine lasts longer than his.

The younger generation, can't tell them anything..............


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## Spy (May 12, 2016)

GCGlasgow said:


> I would go for used especially from a member on here as most know how to look after their machines, other sites I think you are taking a chance but sometimes worth it...I bought expobar brewtus IV from e-bay and its in good condition and as described. Even a brand new machine can cause issues though you have a warranty.


I am open to a used/refurb machine but worried about the inherent unreliability of a lot of machines, even when they are new, as you say.

My own machine was extremely well looked after - religiously descaled every month, cleaned out thoroughly every couple of weeks yet it still broke down after 4 years.


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## Spy (May 12, 2016)

MrShades said:


> Are you still looking at B2C machines, or have you decided on a more sensible option now? Personally I wouldn't buy a new or used or refurbed B2C machine...
> 
> What budget do you have?


I don't want to spend more than £250-£300 but happy to wait a little for a price drop on a slightly more expensive machine to get it into my budget. For example, Amazon prices fluctuate massively, a £350 machine one week could be £275 the next



MrShades said:


> What sort of coffee based drinks to you drink?


As per my other post referenced in the first post above, the majority (95%) of coffee I used the old machine for were long coffees like an americano. I would set the b2c machine to output a full cup.

It would grind the beans and pump the water through until the cup filled up, leaving a nice (but not necessarily thick) crema on top. The cups are not massive, equivalent of a tall cup in starbucks


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## Spy (May 12, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Same, but it goes treble for a refurbished bean to cup. In all honesty, your probably better of going for a good used and/or refurbish yourself...rather than let someone of unknown skills "refurbish" it (what does refurbished even mean).


Good point on refurb. I guess a refurb should come with some sort of warranty compared to a used one with no warranty.



mike57 said:


> I've just this week bought a used Gaggia Classic and after minor cleaning am very happy. My son thought the espresso was so much better than anything he'd had before decided that he needed a 'proper' machine too.
> 
> He has just bought a refurbished bean to cup. It won't be statistically valid but I bet mine lasts longer than his.
> 
> The younger generation, can't tell them anything..............


Reading reviews on Amazon of B2C machines, reliability is definitely not their strong suit, even expensive, highly rated ones seem to have parts failures at some point.

Is the general consensus then that espresso only machines are way more reliable ? What about loss of pressure or pump failures ? Any particularlmake/model that is more reliable with proven longevity ?

I see the Gaggia Classic mentioned a lot


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

If you was to go down the route of separate grinder and espresso machine, both used, then lets say you bought a second hand eureka mignon and gaggia classic, a well respected combo, if you did find it too much faff and decided to sell you would get most, if not all your money back.

Both machines i mention should be available within you budget, just,, but then you would need few extras like scales, tamper etc.

Being in London I would imagine it would be easier to pick either of these up without having postal charges on top


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## Spy (May 12, 2016)

Thanks. I am not totally averse to a separate combo Vs a B2C machine but have a few questions:

1) How would I make a long coffee (like an Americano) with a separate espresso machine. On a B2C it is just a tirn of a dial or push of a button?

2) You mention a few additional parts. I understand the tamper is to compact the grounds. What is the purpose of the scales and what else would I need ?

Thx


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Spy said:


> Thanks. I am not totally averse to a separate combo Vs a B2C machine but have a few questions:
> 
> 1) How would I make a long coffee (like an Americano) with a separate espresso machine. On a B2C it is just a tirn of a dial or push of a button?
> 
> ...


1. you would make an espresso and add hot water from the kettle or from the steam wand. I use the kettle.

2. blank basket and powder for backflushing for cleanliness appox £15 for both,,,,, scales are for weighing the beans, to make sure you have the right dose for the basket £4.50 off ebay

heres a classic for sale with lots of extras,,, good seeing as how you have none. Noticed it no postage in scotland.

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?31533-Gaggia-classic-lots-of-extras-upgrades

heres a Mignon for sale, seems better value than the other ones for sale as its the chrome version, albeit a MK1(makes no real difference)

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?31693-For-Sale-Eureka-Mignon-Grinder-%A3180

There are other classics for sale, but seeing as how you are staring up it appears good value, (PID, bottomless portafilter could be sold on if you dont require them).


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## Spy (May 12, 2016)

I guess I will need to read up on the uses for a blank basket and how you backflush.

I already have digital weighing scales that can weigh up to 500g in 0.1g increments but I don't understand how that would work - don't the grinders just have a hopper for the beans and grind a set amount, albeit at different coarseness settings ?

Appreciate the info you posted but it feels like I have a lot learn


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## Spy (May 12, 2016)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> heres a classic for sale with lots of extras,,, good seeing as how you have none. Noticed it no postage in scotland.
> 
> http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?31533-Gaggia-classic-lots-of-extras-upgrades
> 
> There are other classics for sale, but seeing as how you are staring up it appears good value, (PID, bottomless portafilter could be sold on if you dont require them).


Wow - just looked at that ad you pointed me to and it looks like a lot of parts to just make a coffee









I wouldn't even know what to do with half the stuff like a naked portafilter, coffee catchers, panarello wand etc !


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Spy said:


> I guess I will need to read up on the uses for a blank basket and how you backflush.
> 
> I already have digital weighing scales that can weigh up to 500g in 0.1g increments but I don't understand how that would work - don't the grinders just have a hopper for the beans and grind a set amount, albeit at different coarseness settings ?
> 
> Appreciate the info you posted but it feels like I have a lot learn


Theres not really that much to it

different basket sizes take different ammounts of grinds, , some baskets are 15gram some 18 gram. Using scales makes it easier to put an exact weight into the basket and repeat a recipe that tasted nice.

you may see things like this, which would be hard to replicate without weighing the beans in and the espresso out.


 Our espresso recipe using 20g vst basket 
20g in
42g out
in 25 to 30 seconds 

https://ravecoffee.co.uk/collections/single-origin-coffee/products/colombian-suarez

You can just grind straight into the protailfter if you want without weighing. Im sure plenty of people do, just not that many on this forum


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Spy said:


> Wow - just looked at that ad you pointed me to and it looks like a lot of parts to just make a coffee
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you done need those thing, especially the panarello

This is my set up,, all you cant see thats not in the photo and is necessary for me is the blind basket, cafiza powder and small ramekin I dose into.

I also dont need both jugs, and in your case you wouldnt need one


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Spy said:


> I am open to a used/refurb machine but worried about the inherent unreliability of a lot of machines, even when they are new, as you say.
> 
> My own machine was extremely well looked after - religiously descaled every month, cleaned out thoroughly every couple of weeks yet it still broke down after 4 years.


Because it was made to a price, mainly out of cheap plastic, and probably had a finite lifespan designed into it (and if you needed to descale it, then you probably weren't feeding it the right water in the first place - and that's the biggest killer of any coffee machine).

To be honest I'm quite surprised that you got 4 years out of it.

I've owned my Izzo Duetto (OK, in a different league to your B2C machine) that is made "properly" since 2009 - it's on a timer and comes on for 4hrs in the morning, and 4hrs in the evening - except when I;m working from home (frequently) or weekends when it's on all day.

It still works today EXACTLY as well as it did when I brought it home 7 years ago. Possibly better, as I've upgraded a few bits. Nothing has ever gone wrong with it, it's never stopped working, it's always produced a few shots of espressos for me every day. I can't remember the last time I descaled it...


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## Spy (May 12, 2016)

Thanks for your post Mr Shades.

Yes, I descaled it every month because the descale light came on. I used filtered water so I don't think it needed the descaling but I would do it anyway for peace of mind and to get the light to go out !

When it broke, it wasn't the water system, pump etc that stopped working. It was the mechanical gears that moved the infuser up and down.

I opened it up to try and fix it and although I couldn't, everything else in it like the pipes etc looked perfect.

As you say, the mechanical bits were probably designed with a finite life in them.

I would love a cool looking, more reliable and effective machine but unfortunately cannot afford one.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

How about an aeropress(£20) or a v60 (£5) plus your kettle and buy a decent grinder. For those less than monthly milk drinks, just stick a mug in the microwave. The grinder and decent beans will totally change your coffee experience.


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## PaulL (May 5, 2014)

The question going through my mind is how much do you enjoy your coffee? Ie.the amount of experience.

Personally I find B2C shocking however expensive, if I want a coffee during the times my machine is off I use a moka pot, I would rather use an Aerobie or Pavoni or something which will take good coffee. Hell I'd rather use instant than a B2C, i kid you not in smart office suites, at people's houses etc. I find it undrinkable. If you haven't done so travel to one or two people and try their coffee. If you're happy with the results from B2C then fair enough.


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## Spy (May 12, 2016)

PaulL said:


> The question going through my mind is how much do you enjoy your coffee? Ie.the amount of experience.
> 
> Personally I find B2C shocking however expensive, if I want a coffee during the times my machine is off I use a moka pot, I would rather use an Aerobie or Pavoni or something which will take good coffee. Hell I'd rather use instant than a B2C, i kid you not in smart office suites, at people's houses etc. I find it undrinkable. If you haven't done so travel to one or two people and try their coffee. If you're happy with the results from B2C then fair enough.


Maybe I don't know any better but my b2c seemed OK, given its cost, compared to coffee I have had in coffee shops (and I don't mean Costa or Starbucks). Not great but OK. This site is opening my eyes a bit though.


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Hi Spy

Would echo what others have said above (grinder, aeropress or V60) and save for something more should your tastebuds tell you to. You will in the meantime have a bit of cash left over for beans allowing you to try lots of different roasters offerings, some advertise on here.

From what you have described of your routine, my youngest brother does exactly the same with his B2C and nearly always comes out over extracted. Pulled short on decent beans, topped up with water from kettle much better.

French press with a grinder could also offer up a fuller mouth feel not costing the earth or if you want to stick with a filter / drip then can't praise the Behmor Brazen enough (lots of forum post info in the brewed section). Grind beans, pop in filter, put some decent water in the top, settle on a temp to brew at, hit start and 5 minutes later up to a litre of quality consistent coffee no faff / no real fuss. Not cheap but still a significant saving on any B2C even with a seperate grinder factored in (Plus Missy's comment about microwaving milk for us heathens







)

Hope of help

John


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## friedcoffee (Feb 29, 2016)

I won't buy a used one atleast from someone I don't know. For refurbished, the condition and the deal depends


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