# Plumb L1 for Line PI



## holdtheonions (May 5, 2016)

Hi, so ended up getting L1 and was going to plumb like so









Anyone ever done it or know if done with good results? I plumbed baby lever with line pi prior to this machine and big improvement. L1 not as bad obviously, but still needs it IMO.

Primarily wondering if cold water going straight into HX would mess with TS. Thinking it wouldn't, but never know. I can address with preheater, which I've done before, but would need to buy a few more things, so rather not if I don't have to.

Parts on the way, so try regardless, but curious what to expect.

Thanks for any feedback.


----------



## mazi (Jan 21, 2015)

Hello holdtheonions,

The TS will work without problems, the temperature on the group depends on the number of coffees and cooling flushes.

You can control the temperature partially by different settings of pressure switch.

The disadvantage is that heating up time is 45min (15min with original setup).


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Why not buy the correct kit from Londinium? You need to remove the vibe pump from memory as well


----------



## mazi (Jan 21, 2015)

With the kit from Londinium you just change the tank/line pressure.

The original setup will be the same. So the group head is still feed from the boiler and not with cold water with line pressure as L1P.


----------



## holdtheonions (May 5, 2016)

mazi said:


> Hello holdtheonions,
> 
> I did this:
> 
> ...


Stregified, that's awesome. Considered that on my previous machine, but found I was satisfied enough with line pressure, and was maybe also not 100% confident my homemade hx setup could handle pump pressure







I actually have extra OPV, but think I'll start with line pi and pid though. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## holdtheonions (May 5, 2016)

Ok, I did it. It's great! Will make some youtubes in a week or so after had a chance to use it a bit.









First, no pump noise is simply brilliant.





 Just hisses for a few seconds and then done. Didn't time it, but initially filled the whole boiler in something less than 15 seconds. Wow! It took mine 3 pumps runs to fill when I first got the machine, so quite a difference.

Second, I used a 1/8" 6mm nipple to connect to the heat exchanger to the 1/8" t-fitting, and by accident the effect is to reduce the flow rate while still increasing the pressure. So complete saturation takes 3 to 5 seconds on a grind that boiler pressure wouldn't even saturate after 20 to 30 seconds previously, but the water doesn't spray out of the grouphead during flushing like it did before, just a really nice ample flow. This was unexpected benefit. If you can't solder, then will need to use a 1/4" hose and 1/4" to 1/8" connector. Regardless, may also need to regulate the pressure coming into your machine depending on how high it is. I didn't have to on mine.

After this decided I also want to make a similar modification to the water tap, because the water sprays out too fast as well for my liking. Thinking simply going 1/4" to 1/8" to 1/4" would restrict the flow in that tube and give better result.

Third, as far as I can figure, mine is heating and the TS is functioning the same as before. I measured grouphead, both before and after the modification and it maxes out at the same temp in same amount of time (30-35 minutes).

Fourth, my machine has the new seals and was previously catching around 45 degrees, and I am guessing it is now somewhere between 50-55 degrees. I don't know how to measure it, but it is noticeably greater and the overall pressure of the system is clearly greater. I will show it in the youtube. Whether it's better or not is too early to tell.

Fifth, very minor benefits being the boiler doesn't have to fill anymore after pulling a shot and I can flush the grouphead even when the machine is cold.

I purchased fittings at espressocare.com and below are the ones I used for reference. The last two fittings are to convert from 3/8" bsp to 3/8" npt compression, you may not need or may need something different. Also, will need some sort of high-temperature/high-pressure thread sealer or gasket for any of the non-compression connections, e.g. the 1/4" plug. I use Permatex Red and give it 24-hours to cure.









PID and water tube mod will be next.


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

You tube link is broke


----------



## holdtheonions (May 5, 2016)

Thecatlinux said:


> You tube link is broke


Hmmm, sorry, it works for me, maybe it's one of those country things. It's just link to Handel.


----------



## Tewdric (Apr 20, 2014)

I'm struggling to see the point of this given that Reiss's plumbed design works perfectly, is silent in operation and retainers the 5 minute warm up advantage. If ever there was a machine that didn't need fiddling with..


----------



## mazi (Jan 21, 2015)

@holdtheonions Did you measure the temperature of the cold water line? Without non return valve and OPV the hot water from HX is flowing back.


----------



## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Tewdric said:


> I'm struggling to see the point of this given that Reiss's plumbed design works perfectly, is silent in operation and retainers the 5 minute warm up advantage. If ever there was a machine that didn't need fiddling with..


I think the point is that pre-infusion is at higher than boiler pressure. With the L1 kit, you still only pre-infuse at ~1.3 bar. It makes it more like the L1P in that respect, which is why the lever catches a bit lower.

Would be interested to hear what @lespresso makes of it.


----------



## arellim (May 9, 2016)

Interesting thread this as I am looking to plumb in soon (I have the kit from Londinium, but am always looking for better alternatives!)

Have you plumbed for waste, or is that for the future?


----------



## holdtheonions (May 5, 2016)

Tewdric said:


> I'm struggling to see the point of this given that Reiss's plumbed design works perfectly, is silent in operation and retainers the 5 minute warm up advantage. If ever there was a machine that didn't need fiddling with..


Because it provides line pressure preinfusion, which IMO is superior. I have used it for a little over a year on my baby lever and was one of the biggest difference I noted going to the Londinium, so getting back to it just feels right to me. If you are use to boiler pressure pi, it may feel wrong.


----------



## holdtheonions (May 5, 2016)

mazi said:


> @holdtheonions Did you measure the temperature of the cold water line? Without non return valve and OPV the hot water from HX is flowing back.


That is a very good point. I use it on a timer and in an hour it does not get hot enough down the line to be an issue. I used this same configuration for about a year with my previous lever and have validated this before. Note that in my setup the water hose is about 1.7 meters long and comes out next to the floor. So if you have different configuration, or if you leave your machine on all day, or don't have a timer and forget to turn it off, then you may need to account for it, I don't know the answer. Also, Reis warns that you are crazy if you do not have automatic water shutoff in case of leak. I don't have that either.


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

holdtheonions said:


> That is a very good point. I use it on a timer and in an hour it does not get hot enough down the line to be an issue. I used this same configuration for about a year with my previous lever and have validated this before. Note that in my setup the water hose is about 1.7 meters long and comes out next to the floor. So if you have different configuration, or if you leave your machine on all day, or don't have a timer and forget to turn it off, then you may need to account for it, I don't know the answer. Also, Reis warns that you are crazy if you do not have automatic water shutoff in case of leak. I don't have that either.


Considering the nominal price of a non return valve I'd fit one as standard if plumbing anything into mains water.


----------



## Tewdric (Apr 20, 2014)

fluffles said:


> I think the point is that pre-infusion is at higher than boiler pressure. With the L1 kit, you still only pre-infuse at ~1.3 bar. It makes it more like the L1P in that respect, which is why the lever catches a bit lower.
> 
> Would be interested to hear what @lespresso makes of it.


Indeed. I think there's an argument to say that longer lower pressure infusion is mor likely to stabilise the puck than 2-3 bar of line pressure, but my only experience of line level preinfusion was on my HX E61, which hardly bears comparison with an L1.

The other issue I'd be looking carefully at is how well the smaller boiler of the L1 (compared to the P) handles the HX in terms of consistency.

i just love the simplicity of the L1 design though. It seems a shame to modify it!


----------



## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

Nice.

So, apart from a presumably longer recovery time, what's the difference between an L1 modded in this way and the L1-P with it's larger boiler?


----------



## Split Shot (Sep 24, 2016)

I was under the impression that one of the reasons for the larger boiler on the L1-P was down to the correct sizing of the vertical HX arrangement - the L1 by design not actually having an HX as such, rather a thermosyphon loop through the boiler. They might therefore be entirely different volume/surface areas?


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

I still can't see what the advantages are but I admire your spirit of adventure ,

me personally I like to have tank fed water as I belive good water quality to be paramount.

I am also very happy with how the standard setup works and I am of the mindset of if it ain't broke don't fix it .

I am however interested in your adventures and looking forward to the videos


----------



## holdtheonions (May 5, 2016)

ashcroc said:


> Considering the nominal price of a non return valve I'd fit one as standard if plumbing anything into mains water.


It's will be around $50 for me, currently and have considered it previously, but prolly won't as not had any issues with it previously and using superior tubing on this machine.

One final comment on this topic is that it is building code in some (most?) places, so should also consider that and the effect on your insurance, i.e. you may not be covered if you have problems???


----------



## holdtheonions (May 5, 2016)

Tewdric said:


> Indeed. I think there's an argument to say that longer lower pressure infusion is mor likely to stabilise the puck than 2-3 bar of line pressure, but my only experience of line level preinfusion was on my HX E61, which hardly bears comparison with an L1.
> 
> The other issue I'd be looking carefully at is how well the smaller boiler of the L1 (compared to the P) handles the HX in terms of consistency.
> 
> i just love the simplicity of the L1 design though. It seems a shame to modify it!


On your first and last points, it will simply be a matter of preference. This is relatively cheap mod and easy to reverse, so figure no harm in playing with it. I have only been using it a couple days, so final verdict is still out. I can say that it is making a bigger difference on the 18g vst basket over the stock basket. I was using the stock basket almost exclusively as I found the vst to be too unforgiving, largely due to partial infusions. For me this is absolutely making it practical to pull 18-19g shots again with the vst.

On the second point, it won't handle it as well due to the lower thermal mass, but I am pulling a couple of 30g shots, not 200 shots in a day. The grouphead is massive and ridiculously oversized for that application. This configuration brings the machine to the same temp and my workflow is such that the machine has plenty of time to recover between shots. This could only be an issue IMO if you were trying to save money by employing an L1 in a commercial setting, which I can already say don't do that.


----------



## holdtheonions (May 5, 2016)

GlennV said:


> Nice.
> 
> So, apart from a presumably longer recovery time, what's the difference between an L1 modded in this way and the L1-P with it's larger boiler?


Maybe someone who used both can better speak to it, but I don't believe anything other than stronger steaming power and recovery time. Either could be reason enough for some.


----------



## holdtheonions (May 5, 2016)

arellim said:


> Interesting thread this as I am looking to plumb in soon (I have the kit from Londinium, but am always looking for better alternatives!)
> 
> Have you plumbed for waste, or is that for the future?


I didn't plumb for waste, and don't have a means for it. I can say it would be well worth it if you can, as the pull up and out drip tray is really crap IMO, and I have continued to use a bowl as I believe it to be easier. The drip tray is one of my biggest disappointments with this machine.


----------



## Split Shot (Sep 24, 2016)

@holdtheonions

On a related note: have you noticed any need to change your prep routine and/or grind?

The oft quoted mantra from L1 owners is "grind fine, tamp light" with some seeming to use little more than the weight of the tamper.

I've experimented with this on my L1-P @ 3 bar PI, but really couldn't get on with it - getting far better consistency with a more normal tamp of circa 5-6kg.

Sort of "grind fine, tamp moderately"?

Have you noticed this?


----------



## holdtheonions (May 5, 2016)

Split Shot said:


> @holdtheonions
> 
> On a related note: have you noticed any need to change your prep routine and/or grind?
> 
> ...


I haven't played with my tamp yet, just using "normal" pressure, but I am grinding finer. I have been dosing 19.3-19.7g on the VST with ample overhead. Was planning to switch back to the stock basket this afternoon and use that for a while. I will give it a try and see how it goes.


----------



## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

I think the main point would be, greater shot volume and better mouthfeel as per an L1P, because of the great pre infusion pressure. However, I am surprised the group temp is correct, because thats a huge difference in input water temp


----------



## holdtheonions (May 5, 2016)

NickR said:


> However, I am surprised the group temp is correct, because thats a huge difference in input water temp


 It works same as any e61 hx machine, except the grouphead is more massive with the implications of such. If you flush a lot of water then it will cool the grouphead. If you don't want to cool the grouphead, then simply don't flush before you pull your shot. With shot volumes, the pressure drops and recovers the same regardless of where the cold water enters the system. Let me know if I misunderstood your meaning and try to answer best I can. Was thinking I'd show the effect of some things in my youtube so you can see. Didn't feel like doing it today though, sorry.


----------



## holdtheonions (May 5, 2016)

Ok, didn't do a youtube, but did stick a thermocouple on the grouphead and cold water fitting.

First grouphead.









Machine was on for a little over 2 hours before I got this going.

1 - Waited 10 minutes and flushed 16oz (.47 liters) through the hot water wand. As you seen, nothing happened for about 90 seconds and then grouphead dropped a bit. The boiler pressure drops to zero when I do this and is recovered at about the same time the grouphead starts dropping.

2 - Waited for it to stabilize and then pulled a shot, which the entire pull lasted from 16:00-17:49. As expected grouphead temp went up a little bit from the hot water entering the chamber, but not much at all.

3 - Waited a few minutes and then flushed 16oz through the grouphead. As you can see, this greatly affected the temp and took almost 15 minutes for temps to stabilize. Also note that temps stabilized around 4-5c less than where they were previously.

4 - I touched the thermocouple to make sure it was secure thinking something might be wrong. It wasn't, it was just that the grouphead will heat quickly to a certain temperature and then heat far more slowly to a higher temperature. I saw the same thing when testing the fitting, see graph below. So if you are operating your machine 24 hours a day, the grouphead temps will be greater at a specific pressure than someone who turns on and is pulling shots 30-45 minutes later.

5 - Flushed for 3 seconds through the grouphead, which turned out to be around 7.5oz. of water As you can see, this amount of water increased grouphead temps as well. Most important point of all this being there is a big difference between 7.5oz and 16oz of water with this setup. Three seconds is plenty to flush debris from the grouphead, so best to leave it at that. Any more and will start changing things significantly.

6 - Hit it again with another 16 oz flush through grouphead. As you can see, it dropped to the same temp as the first flush even though started at a lower temp. Not sure I understand that, but sure there is a reason. Pulled the plug a few minutes later.

Second Fitting temp. Attached thermocouple to the coldwater fitting and closed it back up.









With my setup (yours may be different, so should do your own testing), after about 30 minutes (which is when I pull my shot), the temp is less than the hot water tap. After 60 minutes it is increasing very slowly. At this point it is a little higher than hot water tap. I can't see this will be an issue for me, but maybe someone else knows better. I did lose signal for a little bit and came back and had to restart the chip, but didn't affect the test. Also, flushed 16oz at the end and it dropped to the point shown. I pulled the plug after it stopped dropping. Assumed it would take the same amount of time to recover.


----------



## Split Shot (Sep 24, 2016)

I'm sure there's potential for lots of differences in the measurement setup that could skew the results, but those temps at the group head are more than 10C lower than that measured by others on an unmodded L1.

See:

http://www.home-barista.com/levers/londinium-i-recommended-protocol-for-best-brew-temperature-stability-t26733.html


----------



## holdtheonions (May 5, 2016)

Split Shot said:


> I'm sure there's potential for lots of differences in the measurement setup that could skew the results, but those temps at the group head are more than 10C lower than that measured by others on an unmodded L1.
> 
> See:
> 
> http://www.home-barista.com/levers/londinium-i-recommended-protocol-for-best-brew-temperature-stability-t26733.html


Differences in equipment, placement, ambient, etc. will greatly affect the readings. I could be wrong, but I don't believe you can take anything from that. For example, 1c occurs at 380f on my air roaster and 450f on my drum roaster. Temp device in same beans with same bean mass and 20% difference in readings.

I have no doubt the thermosyphon is functioning the same as previous while the machine is idle. It is easy to validate by simply reading the temp before and after the mod and accounting for differences in ambient. What I can't fully tell you is how it compares during use because I didn't do the same test before. That said, observing how it performs after and based upon the results in my drinks, I am fully satisfied with its function.

There are three reasons I can think why the mod may not be desirable. 1) You like performing long leisurely flushes of the grouphead. 2) You regularly drink very light roasts. I had to do significant RDT with a very light roast I did with my grinder (e37s). I don't normally drink roasts this light, but thinking this could be an issue for some people. 3) You are perfectly happy with your current results.

I would recommend trying this if you aren't happy with your results, e.g. I was use to line pi and I wanted it back, straight up. Or you like playing and tinkering with things. To understand where I am coming from, I modify almost everything at this point, with improvements in function being secondary to the fun of it. I often do things and then undo them later if I don't like the results. My family regularly laughs at me when the see something completely taken apart on the counter and they ask what is wrong with it and I tell nothing is wrong with it. ;-)


----------



## holdtheonions (May 5, 2016)

Here's the youtube


----------



## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

It is incredible to see an L1 pre-infusing as quickly and catching as low as an L1-P. Very clever mod!

Matt


----------

