# Distribution and extraction issues



## ahirsty (Jan 9, 2014)

I have had a couple of weeks playing with the Brewtus but I seem to be having issues with uneven extraction.

I'm getting consistent extraction times and weights however 9/10 times the extraction is uneven with channeling. I don't think I have ever got a single stream in the center, and usually with nasty spritzes.

I'm using a 18g VST with 17g in the basket, ground direct into the portafilter, tapped level and tamped.

Any ideas where I might be going wrong. I had similar issues with the Mignon and Silvano so the issue must lay with the barista!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Clip of prep and extraction please


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

What tamper are you using? Have you tried tamping straight onto the mound without the tapping? I always find less faff has better results


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## ahirsty (Jan 9, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Clip of prep and extraction please


I should have been more prepared, I'll try and get one uploaded tomorrow.


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## ahirsty (Jan 9, 2014)

Daren said:


> What tamper are you using? Have you tried tamping straight onto the mound without the tapping? I always find less faff has better results


Once but it ended up really wonky, the mound is never really central or even unfortunately.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Is it the Mignon you're still using?


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

ahirsty said:


> Once but it ended up really wonky, the mound is never really central or even unfortunately.


You could be diagnosing the problem yourself.... Try and focus on the initial distribution into the basket as a starting point

What grinder are you using?


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## ahirsty (Jan 9, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Is it the Mignon you're still using?


No, Mazzer Royal


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Have you modded it?


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## ahirsty (Jan 9, 2014)

Daren said:


> Have you modded it?


I believe it has the clean sweep mod and some of the top mechanism removed, it was performed before I got it tho.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Schnozz or elvinator fitted?


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Schnozz could be your friend!


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## ahirsty (Jan 9, 2014)

Ok, I managed to get a video sorted. I could not figure out a way to grind with one hand so I took a photo.

After grind:









After level:









Extraction:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tk7lawiy4d06lix/20150304_202000023_iOS.mov

Cheers


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ahirsty said:


> Once but it ended up really wonky, the mound is never really central or even unfortunately.


Slight light nutate and then firm tamp down ?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Few dead spots there as well as the tripods. Try grinding a tad coarser and nutate when tamping if flow goes too quick.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Perhaps some post-grind distribution would help. Worth testing at least.

Try grinding into a completely dry milk pitcher, then really shaking the grounds about to make sure they are thoroughly broken up and mixed. Put this into the PF, one in the pf don't 'shake' too much as it will cause migration of fines, just level and tamp then try an extraction. This is admittedly a lot of faff, but its a good starting point to see how distribution is affecting your pull.

Also try WDT after grinding to see if this helps the extraction.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

It's interesting that home users get so hung up about distribution and tamping, then develop complex systems that would never work in commercial settings (paper clips and yoghurt pots spring to mind).

It's really not that complicated, though. You dose, you weigh, you tap, you tamp, then extract. Consistency is more important than being able to exert x lbs of pressure. Ditto complicated distribution techniques - you really shouldn't need to do this, if you do then something else is usually wrong.

JP


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Quite right about the difference in setting - home v commercial setting impacting on way shots are prepared. Having more time/care at home to prepare a shot is no bad thing.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

What coffee is it ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Now many shops use nakeds?

Agree adding steps in can be counter intuitive ( when you are using an ex commercial grinder )


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

jjprestidge said:


> It's interesting that home users get so hung up about distribution and tamping, then develop complex systems that would never work in commercial settings (paper clips and yoghurt pots spring to mind).
> 
> It's really not that complicated, though. You dose, you weigh, you tap, you tamp, then extract. Consistency is more important than being able to exert x lbs of pressure. Ditto complicated distribution techniques - you really shouldn't need to do this, if you do then something else is usually wrong.
> 
> JP


Perhaps, I think a lot of the distribution techniques stem from home grinders which clump a lot or are otherwise not as capable as commercials. The Mazzer Major is obviously not in this camp.

Sometimes I get a shot that looks like it is channeling, with dead spots, but tastes just fine in the cup. There is often a piece of advice given that if you pour from a VST looks bad, but tastes good, then ignore it. On the other hand the pursuit of perfection at home is often what drives people.

Channeling of some kind through the puck is almost inevitable, after all the particles can never truly be perfectly distributed, and the water will always find the easiest way out.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Quite right about the difference in setting - home v commercial setting impacting on way shots are prepared. Having more time/care at home to prepare a shot is no bad thing.


That might be true, but you might be wasting your time on unnecessary complications. I get a handful of shots in the shop each week that are thrown away and I look at EVERY shot very carefully. Ditto somewhere like Colonna and Smalls.

JP


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

jjprestidge said:


> That might be true, but you might be wasting your time on unnecessary complications


Think there's a bit of 'easy for gwilym to say when he's got a Mythos One' thing going on here


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## ahirsty (Jan 9, 2014)

I'm not looking to complicate my prep but if there is a obvious problem I would like to fix it. The shots don't taste bad but the 'good' shots definitely taste better. I will try the above suggestions and see if the changes make any difference.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

18g VST (imo) behave better with a 18-19g dose.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

ahirsty said:


> I'm not looking to complicate my prep but if there is a obvious problem I would like to fix it. The shots don't taste bad but the 'good' shots definitely taste better. I will try the above suggestions and see if the changes make any difference.


Another technique to consider is the WDT but don't change more than one variable at a time.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jjprestidge said:


> That might be true, but you might be wasting your time on unnecessary complications. I get a handful of shots in the shop each week that are thrown away and I look at EVERY shot very carefully. Ditto somewhere like Colonna and Smalls.
> 
> JP


not everyone has anfim supercaimanos that distribute beautifully!


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## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

Following with interest. I had similar issues with brewtus and SJ. In the end I gave up on the VST. I didn't want to but I just couldn't make it work. I found It is way harder to get an even shot from a VST and they were tasting bitter and over extracted. I switched to the stock basket and all was fine, shots extracting evenly visually and the bitterness gone.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

VSTs are notoriously unforgiving and will expose any flaw(s) in technique but worth the pain IMO.


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## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> VSTs are notoriously unforgiving and will expose any flaw(s) in technique but worth the pain IMO.


The wife is less forgiving though. She just tastes and gives me a look which says what have you done


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Id be tempted to dose 18g and grind a touch finer, total brew time 35-38 sec


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## AussieEx (Jul 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> VSTs are notoriously unforgiving and will expose any flaw(s) in technique but worth the pain IMO.


Funny, substitute "Silvia" for "VST" and you'll get thousands of hits on coffee forums and blogs over the last 10 years. Now many have moved on. I wonder what's coming over the horizon in baskets...


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## paul_w (Feb 23, 2015)

Just a quick thought but how are you tamping? NSEW? or using something like a Pergman 58.5 Tamp?

I just recently started using a Pergman tamp with my VST baskets and also using a dosing funnel ( http://www.orphanespresso.com/OE-Stainless-Steel-58mm-Dosing-Funnel_p_5707.html ) which allows for good and easy distribution and the improvement I am seeing in my extractions really is fantastic.


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