# Descaling do's and apparent dont's



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

A lot of the time, there seems to be many people that weigh in with the opinion "ohhh no, I wouldn't use that to descale an espresso machine".

And, basically, I wondered why...?

Whilst I was descaling a machine after a full strip down I used very strong citric (Dezcal) solutions, 4x the recommended dosage at one point. My reasoning was that the regular recipe was for day to day descaling, and I was getting rid of heavy scale. The parts that I descaled in this solution suffered zero adverse effects. I also immersed a group head completely in a similar solution, which did not damage the chrome (although it was to have the chrome removed anyway).

At various times I have heard that phos descaled is too aggressive (although recommended by people on here who restore machines for a living) that you shouldn't use vinegar (I can understand the taste implications there), that you should be extra careful with an aluminium boiler....

Does any of it have any reasoning behind it or is it just peoples guess work?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Search Vinegar, a fair few people say do not use it, even BB say don't use it.

Use it if you want i guess, its your machine after all.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

froggystyle said:


> Search Vinegar, a fair few people say do not use it, even BB say don't use it.
> 
> Use it if you want i guess, its your machine after all.


If its purely a flavour thing then I can kind of understand vinegar, its a strong flavour. But I could see no harm in using it on a detached pipe if it was well rinsed afterward. I used to descale my kettle with cheapo asda vinegar and it was fine after a quick rinse.

TBH flavour is an obvious thing, and something to be obviously worried about, but solution strength and various other chemicals get recommended and shot down in equal measure both here and elsewhere on the web. 'pocket science' as it was dubbed not so long ago can really get carried away with itself... it would be good to know if anyone has any real knowledge on the matter... e.g. 'Citric over a certain concentrate can cause break down of copper due to X chemical reaction'


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

If pipes are being stripped out, then maybe, but if you flushing a system with o rings and seals in, would you want to do this with vinegar...

Its like anything in life, everyone has an opinion, at the end of the day you go with what you think is right based on these opinions and risk factor.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

froggystyle said:


> If pipes are being stripped out, then maybe, but if you flushing a system with o rings and seals in, would you want to do this with vinegar...
> 
> Its like anything in life, everyone has an opinion, at the end of the day you go with what you think is right based on these opinions and risk factor.


There are better solutions than vinegar, and I would't exactly say it was a first course of action. I don't think it would wreck anything, but it is a bit pointless to put such a flavour through your machine and at the very least have to flush it a LOT when you can pick up a big pack of Dezcal for under £15.

And I agree but it starts to get a bit different when people are actively warning others off doing something based on guesswork, if thats what it is.

I haven't made this topic specifically in response to your vinegar warning, the subject, and warning have just cropped up a few times over the past month in my reading on and off these forums so it just triggered the question.


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

I know there is a lot of debate on if you should use Citric Acid as a descaler in a Gaggia Classic. I believe this comes for the fact that the classic has an aluminium boiler and citric acid is strong enough to attack aluminium. I think some people suggest using Tartaric Acid instead as its less aggressive on aluminium. Personally I did always use Citric Acid as its readily available in crystal form and very cheap (~ £5-6 for 1Kg). I always made sure to only ever make a weak solution (1 tablespoon in 1 litre of hot water) and never left it in the boiler longer than 20mins.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

marcuswar said:


> I know there is a lot of debate on if you should use Citric Acid as a descaler in a Gaggia Classic. I believe this comes for the fact that the classic has an aluminium boiler and citric acid is strong enough to attack aluminium. I think some people suggest using Tartaric Acid instead as its less aggressive on aluminium. Personally I did always use Citric Acid as its readily available in crystal form and very cheap (~ £5-6 for 1Kg). I always made sure to only ever make a weak solution (1 tablespoon in 1 litre of hot water) and never left it in the boiler longer than 20mins.


That, at least, it easily google-able, and results do show that citric will attack aluminium, especially at higher tempertures.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I've always interpreted the strong citric acid solution and aluminium boilers as a bad think to do too.


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## degsey (Jan 1, 2015)

I did once use vinegar in my classic but have now changed over to Puly cleaner. Hopefully no damage done.


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

From everything I've ever read there is no real danger of damaging anything by using vinegar (or lemon juice), the problem is purely down to the residue taste it leaves.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

marcuswar said:


> From everything I've ever read there is no real danger of damaging anything by using vinegar (or lemon juice), the problem is purely down to the residue taste it leaves.


Lemon juice essentially is citric acid though isn't it? In which case it may very well stand a chance of damaging aluminium.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The problem with Aluminium is that any acidic descaler really needs to use Buffer salts to *reduce* (not eliminate) acid attack of the metal. Remember though these buffer salts only control acidity allowing the use of a descaler that is weaker, but maintains the acidity level for a long time...rather than a descaler that is initially very aggressive and then looses it's acidity as it descales.

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/descaling-brass-and-copper

For most espresso machine citric acid is fine....if you're really worried it's better to descale gently and for longer with as wweaker solution....the downside is incomplete descaling can leave larger particles that block stuff up and cause problems. for Al boilers, if you must descale, you can use cittric acid, but very mild solutions and don't leave it in too long.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Thanks for the link and info Dave.

Out of interest and for possible future projects, do you have any thoughts on phos descaler beyond the suggestion in that link that any acid based descaler will behave in a similar way?


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