# Need help figuring out Gaggia Classic



## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

Hi All,

A few months ago I bought a Gaggia Classic (2008 Italian made model) on Ebay. The goal is just to keep keep it at work and kick the expensive daily latte habit off one of those mobile vans. I don't want to bring it to work until I can reliably make a decent latte. I'm not likely to start drinking espresso shots plain (I'd never say never but not likely) so just a decent shot for a mixed drink is fine.

I cannot use this machine. I have made and dumped down the sink a hundred shots. I bought a new shower screen. The portafilter basket it came with had clearly had a hard life (it was black and I couldn't clean it so I replaced it). The machine came with the plastic Gaggia tamper. I thought that might be my issue so I bought a metal one. I am getting blonding in about 5-6 seconds. A 25 second pour would be a sour and watery mess (I tasted it just to see but it was vile.)

I'm letting it heat up for 20ish minutes before first use. I did clean the group head with calputty and back flush. I haven't descaled it yet but I have the Gaggia descaler to do when I get time but I'm not sure that's really going to be my issue.

I can't see any channelling in my pucks. They come out solid and don't seem to have any channels around the edge of the basket. Sometimes there is water on the surface of the puck when I remove the portafilter from the group-head but always. I have tried to move around from 14G to 18G in a double basket and this is not pressurised version.

I don't yet have my own grinder but I did get a bag of beans from a local well regarded "artisan" coffee roaster and have them grind them for me the day before I got the machine so at least at first the beans were fresh.

I have a Starbucks Barista grinder bought, just waiting for it to ship so I can do the mod and grind my own beans but I'm finding it hard to believe that the grounds are the sole issue in a shot so bad and fast it's literally not fit to water plants with.

So anyone got any ideas what's going wrong or where I should go next? My bathroom scale is a fancy glass one so the only thing I haven't done is figure out how many psi I'm tamping with as I think it would break my scale/my scale wouldn't work for that anyway due to how it works.

Again I'll get my own grinder set up with a new bag of those same beans when it gets here and I clean and adjust it, but I just want a head start of what else to do while I wait. For reference it won't work with Lavazza espresso either which some people from what I've read on forums are quite ok with for a bog standard shot for lattes etc. Is there anything about the machine that could be malfunctioning that could contribute to this and is a descale likely to help? Do I need to dial the pressure back on the OVI (right acroynmy?) because the machine didn't come with the pressurised black plug thing it would have been designed for originally (It's lost so I don't know if it works better with that or not and really I don't want to do pressurised shots so would rather get it working the way I want if possible.)

Thanks for any help!


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

You're best bet is to get hold of a pressurised basket and use that with either pre-ground or your new Starbucks grinder.

If you continue to use the non pressurised basket with pre ground or sub-standard grinders you will continue to be disappointed.

Believe me on this.....either get a decent grinder or use pressurised baskets.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Hello 

Can you post a short video of your prep process and subsequent shot? It would save us asking loads of questions.


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## Gavin (Mar 30, 2014)

I'd say the problem is your grind. You've got no idea how coarse or how finely your beans are ground because someone else is doing it. Your roaster can't see the effect on your extraction and can't adjust

With any new bean there's a dialing in process for your machine where you adjust the grind setting to try to get the optimum extraction. This isn't happening with your beans because they're all preground.

Also, what's your basket size? Is the dose correct for it? and what weight are you aiming for in the cup?

I don't know anything about the Starbucks Barista grinder but I'd argue that the grinder is more important than the machine in a lot of respects and this is where your cash should be going.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

The barista is a Solis 166/ Baratza Maestro under another name from my research. It's a conical burr grinder that needs a bit of a tweak inside to go to really fine espresso ground but I'm happy to take it apart and do that mod. I'm unfortunately not and never likely to be in the next few years in the position to pay several hundred pound for a coffee grinder. It will be used for one and sometimes rarely two espressos Monday to Friday and to make hot milk for a hot chocolate for my other half. I'm not likely to become into pure espresso shots so just adequate for a latte is fine. I'm not that fussy but what I'm getting at the moment is really sour and thin.

It's a 14G basket double basket, have gone from 14g to 18g to try and see if it made any difference on the back of reading so many forum posts saying to go slightly over dose, my head is spinning but it makes no difference.

I can totally understand people saying the whole grinder thing if they're looking to make really excellent shots for enjoying as espresso. But this machine is used by loads of people to make a decent shot with store bought pre-ground coffee so the fact it can't even make a decent IE along the lines of my Nespresso pod machine seems impossible to me. I know if I get really into things and want to start drinking espresso as is I will need to get more kit but at the moment I'd be happy with lattes that live up to my Nespresso machine with Aero frother attachment! The guy I bought the machine off made me a latte using it and he ground the coffee in his sage bean to cup machine so he certainly wasn't using a £400 grinder with it himself. It's either me or the machine to a degree (whilst I don't doubt that a good grinder would take it to the next level and I wish I was in the position to spend that money but I'm not at this time.)

A video is certainly possible but not til the weekend as I have set this project aside somewhat due to other things going on and would have to obtain more coffee. I threw the remnants out as they'd have all been very stale by now. Thanks for the help so far, it is appreciated.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I have modified one of these grinders. The actual Swiss made version differs but not by much. It can be made to grind to the coarser end of the espresso range. How well that works out may well relate to the beans you use in it.

Cheap grinders needn't be that bad really. 2 that are more affordable especially used is the Sage and the Rocky. I've not used the Rocky and reviews in relationship to fact can be a little misleading. I have used a Sage grinder though and a lot of people do. Can other grinders do better - probably but at their price point I think they are rather hard to beat.

John

-


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

There is one rocky for sale on Ebay possibly within what I could stretch to but it's in London and I'm in the North and the listing says it will not be shipped so that's out. I did look at the Sage dose pro at one point but it was selling for £150 and it's slated fairly often so I didn't see the point in spending £150 to be told I still needed a better one. Pickings on Ebay are pretty slim at the moment and I could just about be talked into spending £75 or maybe £100 but that would hurt me greatly. I'm just annoyed that I put the money into buying the machine to stop spending a few pound daily on lattes and it's currently sat on my (very small) kitchen counter wasting space and not being used. I guess I might as well sell it on and start again when I have more money in a year or two's time.


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## Gavin (Mar 30, 2014)

Tempest said:


> There is one rocky for sale on Ebay possibly within what I could stretch to but it's in London and I'm in the North and the listing says it will not be shipped so that's out. I did look at the Sage dose pro at one point but it was selling for £150 and it's slated fairly often so I didn't see the point in spending £150 to be told I still needed a better one. Pickings on Ebay are pretty slim at the moment and I could just about be talked into spending £75 or maybe £100 but that would hurt me greatly. I'm just annoyed that I put the money into buying the machine to stop spending a few pound daily on lattes and it's currently sat on my (very small) kitchen counter wasting space and not being used. I guess I might as well sell it on and start again when I have more money in a year or two's time.


 I empathise with you. When I bought my Classic i wanted to throw it in the river and came close a couple of times. Even with my old rocky the results were sporadic with long periods when i just couldn't get a decent shot. I use to use a 15g basket with a Rocky and it was really hit or miss. This happened for years, off and on, until I got around (got the money and motivation) to doing a lot of the mods

Here's a couple of things you could do cheaply or for free that might improve things on your classic:

OPV mod. There's a pressure guage you can borrow on the 'Pay it forward' forum (top priority this one!)

Learn about temperature surfing until you can get a PID

Bottomless portafilter so you can see the extraction and try to identify the problems (channeling is hard to identified by looking at the puck post-shot)

VST basket 18g - (although this might be counter productive in the short term as the VST is unforgiving with poor prep or a bad grind)

Don't dose more into the 14g basket I don't really know why but I've been advised (by forum members) not to do this.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

I'm annoyed that the older gent I bought it off had a Sage bean to cup thing and he made me a small latte with that as well and it was a decent cup of coffee. I could have found one of those used and avoided all this hassle haha. I know it'll be satisfying when I crack it but the other issue is that you can only do one shot before you have to wait for the machine to stabilise again so it's like try, nope, wait 15 mins, try nope. You could literally spend the day and not crack it and not have more than a handful of goes either.

I'm a bit unsure if there's something wrong with the machine. The steam wand from all accounts should be ok for the odd latte but this one doesn't really run for more than 30 seconds before the light goes out to say it's off temp. It also doesn't really have a start or stop finite point on the knob, it'll turn backwards to turn it off forever and the steam kind of puts out a little after for a bit. I know I need to also bite the bullet and take it apart but I'm not sure I want to. If it was a car I'd be happier to get stuck into stripping it to parts lol.


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## Andori (Sep 10, 2019)

Admittedly I've not taken mine apart yet, but if you look around for the wiring and parts diagrams and the wealth of videos around you'll see that there is nothing to these machines. They are considerably simpler than a car.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

Here's hoping!

Anyone have an opinion on Graef CM800? Might be able to find one of those that I could just about bite on.


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## Gavin (Mar 30, 2014)

Tempest said:


> I'm annoyed that the older gent I bought it off had a Sage bean to cup thing and he made me a small latte with that as well and it was a decent cup of coffee. I could have found one of those used and avoided all this hassle haha. I know it'll be satisfying when I crack it but the other issue is that you can only do one shot before you have to wait for the machine to stabilise again so it's like try, nope, wait 15 mins, try nope. You could literally spend the day and not crack it and not have more than a handful of goes either.
> 
> I'm a bit unsure if there's something wrong with the machine. The steam wand from all accounts should be ok for the odd latte but this one doesn't really run for more than 30 seconds before the light goes out to say it's off temp. It also doesn't really have a start or stop finite point on the knob, it'll turn backwards to turn it off forever and the steam kind of puts out a little after for a bit. I know I need to also bite the bullet and take it apart but I'm not sure I want to. If it was a car I'd be happier to get stuck into stripping it to parts lol.


 I think the the Sage bean to cup things are expensive. Also, I read that the grinders on them are no too bad. So that might explain the decent latte.

The temperature stabilisation issue is true of all machines in this price bracket. It is a pain when you're practicing but when you've cracked it then its not an issue.

Steam output sounds ok. When the light is on the element is off and cooling. When the light is off the element is on and heating. Mine is always flicking on and off with the temp varying wildly between 129 degrees and 147. Not sure about your *ahem* everturning knob problem though. Not sure if it's just the knob rotating on the arm or if it's all going around (or if this is making any difference).

I've not really used any other espresso machine but I think the learning curve is very steep when you're coming straight into a Classic. Don't give up, you can make it to the promised land. I'll try to record my machine doing a shot later so you can see some of the good stuff that is possible (after you've done your hard time at the steep end of the curve)


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

It's just your grind. Don't get drawn in to doing a load of mods or buying bottomless PF's at this stage. Making decent coffee on the Classic isn't the wizardry that some people would have you believe, but it requires a grinder which you can dial-in shot by shot. You may then barely adjust it ever again, if you keep using the same beans at work.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

If I buy a new little black pin and use the pressurised basket, is that going to make it work with a mediocre grinder/preground coffee as a short term solution? I know I hate things I can't do and want to get to the bottom of why I can't do this without so much 'wizardry' lol but is that the sort of easy way out for now? I don't have one at the minute but they're like a fiver on Amazon so I guess I could easily prime one and accept a half way defeat.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Tempest said:


> If I buy a new little black pin and use the pressurised basket, is that going to make it work with a mediocre grinder/preground coffee as a short term solution? I know I hate things I can't do and want to get to the bottom of why I can't do this without so much 'wizardry' lol but is that the sort of easy way out for now? I don't have one at the minute but they're like a fiver on Amazon so I guess I could easily prime one and accept a half way defeat.


 Yes it will help until you sort out a grinder.


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

Tempest said:


> If I buy a new little black pin and use the pressurised basket, is that going to make it work with a mediocre grinder/preground coffee as a short term solution? I know I hate things I can't do and want to get to the bottom of why I can't do this without so much 'wizardry' lol but is that the sort of easy way out for now? I don't have one at the minute but they're like a fiver on Amazon so I guess I could easily prime one and accept a half way defeat.


 It will help, not ideal but plenty of people out there using pressurised baskets in various machines to make coffee they're happy with.

If you want to hold off a few hours until I'm home, I'm certain I've a plastic pin for the Classic somewhere. Would be happy to pop it in the post for you, it'll be slower than prime but I may more taxes honest ?


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

A few years ago we had a Classic at work and used it with a Delonghi KG79 (modded). It was rubbish with the non pressurised, but we could make a half decent cup with the pressurised basket. Lost count the number of times we lost the bleedin' pin when knocking out the puck though ?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Tempest said:


> I'm annoyed that the older gent I bought it off had a Sage bean to cup thing and he made me a small latte with that as well and it was a decent cup of coffee. I could have found one of those used and avoided all this hassle haha. I know it'll be satisfying when I crack it but the other issue is that you can only do one shot before you have to wait for the machine to stabilise again so it's like try, nope, wait 15 mins, try nope. You could literally spend the day and not crack it and not have more than a handful of goes either.
> I'm a bit unsure if there's something wrong with the machine. The steam wand from all accounts should be ok for the odd latte but this one doesn't really run for more than 30 seconds before the light goes out to say it's off temp. It also doesn't really have a start or stop finite point on the knob, it'll turn backwards to turn it off forever and the steam kind of puts out a little after for a bit. I know I need to also bite the bullet and take it apart but I'm not sure I want to. If it was a car I'd be happier to get stuck into stripping it to parts lol.


Don't worry about the ready light turning off while steaming. All it'll do is turn the element on helping to produce more steam.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

catpuccino said:


> It will help, not ideal but plenty of people out there using pressurised baskets in various machines to make coffee they're happy with.
> 
> If you want to hold off a few hours until I'm home, I'm certain I've a plastic pin for the Classic somewhere. Would be happy to pop it in the post for you, it'll be slower than prime but I may more taxes honest ?


 Oh if you have one that you're happy to part with I'd be very grateful. It will give me time to watch for the right second hand grinder to come along. I think I've been given all the baskets just not the little pin.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> Tempest said:
> 
> 
> > I'm annoyed that the older gent I bought it off had a Sage bean to cup thing and he made me a small latte with that as well and it was a decent cup of coffee. I could have found one of those used and avoided all this hassle haha. I know it'll be satisfying when I crack it but the other issue is that you can only do one shot before you have to wait for the machine to stabilise again so it's like try, nope, wait 15 mins, try nope. You could literally spend the day and not crack it and not have more than a handful of goes either.
> ...


 Lovely to know I was scared I'd burn something out. I read to go back to coffee and run the water to fill it back up after and always do, so I hope that's right.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Tempest said:


> Lovely to know I was scared I'd burn something out. I read to go back to coffee and run the water to fill it back up after and always do, so I hope that's right.


Yeah, it's good practice to refill the boiler after steaming so it doesn't overheat. The flush while doing it can also help brig the temp down for your next shot. Most of the time if I'm making a couple of drinks, I'll prepare both shots first then the milk in 1 go (done enough milk for 3 before with no I'll effects)


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

I did a thing.

I bought a Mignon.

Still not perfect. I either choke the machine or its still a bit quick, there is no happy medium yet.

Any other beginners reading this feeling like I was, that beans and grind can't make that much difference. I was you, I felt the same. But let me tell you, even the difference between the shots I made with the failed qa coffee Bella Barista gives you to season the burrs and the Milk Buster fresh coffee they sent required vastly different grind settings and thus timer settings to get to the 17g my GC seems to like into the portafilter.

I got about 30 grams espresso in about 30 seconds on my last attempt that turned into the perfectly drinkable latte pictured.

Making shots I knew would go down the sink with the qa failed was still valueble just as it started to give me a feel for how grind and tamp effect the shot extracted.

I watched every grinder video about the Mignon I could get my hands on and in the end I'm OK I blew my budget because the MK3 version just seems better all around plus full control of the options I chose and colour. I can also believe the grinder really does make the difference having seen how easy a hair too fine chokes the machine.

I think in a few more weeks of practice plus the installation of my Silvia wand (the panerelo wand is horrible) I'll have started to really crack it. Might still toss a video up for critique if the offer is still on the table☺.


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## FairRecycler (Sep 26, 2019)

Tempest said:


> I did a thing.
> 
> I bought a Mignon.
> 
> ...


 I think most of us gone through all this...

Good job you sorted the main issue quickly. I was struggling with a rubbish grinder for months.

If I were you, I would jump on the Over Pressure Valve straight away. Borrow a gauge and experience the next level in your cup.


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## jimmgc51 (Feb 6, 2016)

Was just about to say get a mignon. I had this paired with my gaggia for years and was more than happy with the results.

Not sure if your grinding straight into the PF, but I would go into a cup first then swirl the grind then into the PF. If your not doing this already, this will give you an improvement.

The Rancillio wand, best mod ever, makes good milk but beware your technique will need to change so be prepared for some bad milk till you nail it.

Also a bottomless, doesn't really make the drink better but can see how it's coming out better so helps with seeing how your grinder is off, squirting etc.

Also personally I found better results with loading the pf, I never weighed so can't help there but the puck would always have an indent from the screen. So pretty much filled it then a finger wipe.

Hopefully some of this helps ?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

jimmgc51 said:


> Was just about to say get a mignon. I had this paired with my gaggia for years and was more than happy with the results.
> Not sure if your grinding straight into the PF, but I would go into a cup first then swirl the grind then into the PF. If your not doing this already, this will give you an improvement.
> The Rancillio wand, best mod ever, makes good milk but beware your technique will need to change so be prepared for some bad milk till you nail it.
> Also a bottomless, doesn't really make the drink better but can see how it's coming out better so helps with seeing how your grinder is off, squirting etc.
> ...


You were overfilling so the coffee didn't have space to expand.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

I'm not sure if you have done the OPV mod suggested above, if you haven't that will make a calming difference on the non pressurized baskets (no plastic pin).

Don't worry too much about time, i've had lovely shots at 45-50s with a 20g basket for 45g, it's how it tastes is the measure. The bottomless PFs also are easier to clean and you get scales and cup under easier as well.

I found on my first three cheap grinders, some beans were just didn't work, i tended to stay with "what worked". The grinder also adds a bit of drama and aroma to the process.

Also the GC has a *very* basic thermostats, so the temperature swings a lot when brewing and steaming and that makes for inconsistency - especially when you make two cups. You can guess the temperature by counting seconds from when the light goes on and off. After 5-10 minutes warm-up I used to draw some water wait until the brew light went off (boiler is cool and heating) then when the brew light came on counted to 10 - then started the shot. (then you buy a PID and think - did i really do that...) :good:


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## jimmgc51 (Feb 6, 2016)

No don't think so, it levelled off ok with the tamper. The basket wasn't to the brim but about near the line around the top that clips the PF in.

Expansion yes for the indent however I found (for me personally) it pulled better shots when at this level.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

Well, I used all the milk buster, bought some beans at Sainbury's as I didn't have time to get into Leeds and we were about to go abroad so no point really having good beans going stale while I wasn't even home. They're ok but not great. My pressies from North Star land tomorrow so will get going with some real real beans haha.

Still having a learning curve of course but the Mignon was the best decision i could have made. It's actually pretty great at getting 17g in the filter on the timer but I guess the MK3 timer is a lot more precise. 17G is where I get close to 30 in 30 without an imprint of the screw on the puck so it's about right for my basket.

I have a service kit coming for the machine as doing a descale has been on my list of things to do for a long time and I really might as well just renew the t-stats and seals and make sure it's all tip top while I'm at it, and a pressure gauge to do the pressure mod while I'm in there might have accidentally fallen into the basket with the service kit haha.

Next stop, I'm starting to realise, is PID. I get a result in the cup that's a bit sour or bitter depending so whist I'm still figuring out the fine tuning of the grind of course, the next logically thing to look at if new stats don't help some is a PID. I'm sure I'll be contacting Mr Shades soon. Will take a view how critical it is once I see what proper and fresh beans do with the 9 pressure mod done.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

A PID is the single most important mod you can do to a Classic. Once you've fitted one, you'll wonder how you ever managed without.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

Because my life is hard, my steam valve leaks all of a sudden. So one of those is going to have to fall in the basket as I understand they aren't serviceable. Never ending!

But in other news, I ground the coffee, I make the shot, it came out right the first time, I steamed the milk and had a latte this morning within about 2 mins, bearing in mind I let the machine warm up while I dealt with getting ready for work and then had a really decent latte in my travel mug in minutes. Really feel like I'm getting somewhere now and it'll be even better when I get some beans that weren't roasted 4 weeks ago but that was the best Sainsbury's could offer that even had a roast date on the package. Wondering if I should just jump into a PID and do the lot while the machine is in bits anyway!


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Tempest said:


> Because my life is hard, my steam valve leaks all of a sudden. So one of those is going to have to fall in the basket as I understand they aren't serviceable. Never ending!
> 
> But in other news, I ground the coffee, I make the shot, it came out right the first time, I steamed the milk and had a latte this morning within about 2 mins, bearing in mind I let the machine warm up while I dealt with getting ready for work and then had a really decent latte in my travel mug in minutes. Really feel like I'm getting somewhere now and it'll be even better when I get some beans that weren't roasted 4 weeks ago but that was the best Sainsbury's could offer that even had a roast date on the package. Wondering if I should just jump into a PID and do the lot while the machine is in bits anyway!


While it's possible to do in site, it's much easier to fit the PT100 sensor while the boiler is out of the machine.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

I was going to do the service and descale this weekend and the ebay listing for the PID kit says late October at the earliest. So I either sort of order the kit and keep trucking on with the machine as is until the PID gets here (if I order it but the if might be arbitrary) or I rebuild the machine with the service kit this weekend and see how I get on for now. What I'm making today is fine for a latte. I'd just like to crack a really decent espresso shot and see if I actually like it when it's done right without milk. I could drink more coffee then, as it's the fact I don't want to have more than 2 small glasses of milk a day and I can't get my hands on barista style coconut or almond milk anywhere I've looked. The coffee van that comes to my new workplace is one of these roving delis and she just puts the milk jug under the steam wand and leaves it sit there while she does other things. I'm looking to get to grips with the set up and then bring it to work to make my own good lattes and ultimately at £3 a coffee and £3 for the other half's hot chocolate, plus half the time you go down you buy some food item you don't need but it's there. Ultimately I know I'll save us money and have the side benefit of drinking better lattes but I resent the learning curve a little haha. I really feel like I don't want water inside the case where there should not be water though so I figure the steam valve needs to be a sooner rather than later repair. I want to try some really good beans but it feels like a waste to get them before I know I can do a decent shot with a house blend.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

Ok, so I've been steadily working on getting better at this stuff and I'm doing ok. Few things have come to mind I wonder about though.

The double basket provided with my machine was really stained so I bought a new one. I read on various forums that the £7 baskets were fine so I went with one of those. I was getting poor shots yesterday and I ended up wondering if I was putting too much coffee in at 17G as I think my replacement was a standard double at 14G. So today I went a hair finer and down to 16G. This was better. But now I get a bit of coffee grind sediment in the bottom of my glass. Is that normal? I have bodum clear latte mug/glasses so you can really see it there at the bottom. If it's something everyone gets to some degree than I'll stop wondering about it and go with it.

Also, I seem to struggle with enough steam to get the milk to 60C. I switch to steam from coffee and the ready light goes on really fast, then it goes off while the milk is still only about 30C, I keep steaming while it's off, but the machine runs out of steam entirely while the milk is still not in the froth section of my thermometer. Even giving it some time after removing the steam arm to equalise the temp of the milk across the thermometer doesn't bring it up higher. I mean 60C is plenty warm in a warmed cup for a good taste but I was assured this machine had adequate steam for the odd milk drink. I only have one average size latte worth of milk in the jug - small milk steaming jug filled to just the bottom of the pour spout as per all the tutorials I've read.

So, I have a rebuild kit for the machine, a new steam valve (it drips some water onto the drip tray from just under the steam knob area of the machine so I assume it's leaking as this seems to be a known common issue, and a new knob as mine is in poor condition. The rebuild kit didn't show up until Monday so my plans to rebuild over the weekend weren't possible. I will do it this weekend instead. Is the mediocre/poor steam performance likely to be repaired through new t-stats and a new steam valve or is there something here I'm possibly missing?

Also, finally, does anyone know if the PID kits on ebay claiming to be the Mr Shades kits are legit and slightly more expensive to account for his costs in using the Ebay platform? Or is that someone doing something iffy and trading on his name? I think I'm about to bite the bullet and buy a PID and a bottomless portafilter as these additions will likely put me in a position high enough for years and years of happy latte making but I want to make sure that if I buy on ebay I'm supporting the actual person who designed the items and it's legit.

Thanks for all your help, I wouldn't be so far ahead without this forum and it is appreciated!


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

Tempest said:


> Also, finally, does anyone know if the PID kits on ebay claiming to be the Mr Shades kits are legit and slightly more expensive to account for his costs in using the Ebay platform?


 They are, that's how I got mine a while back. cc @MrShades.


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

For me the steam surfing is essential. Turn steam switch on, wait for light to come back on, then open steam valve until steam light goes off. It then takes about 10-20s to heat up again. Start steaming just before it goes back on and you'll get a tidal wave of power. For my machine, I waited about 10 seconds.

I found this was still needed after moving to a 155 steam thermostat, although now it takes longer to heat back up at the target temp is now higher. So I wait about 15s for my machine. It's crazy powerful.

Of course I'm told a PID fixes this too. But it's so easy it's not really an issue for me anymore (unlike brew surfing which is much more tedious)


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

Michael87 said:


> Of course I'm told a PID fixes this too. But it's so easy it's not really an issue for me anymore (unlike brew surfing which is much more tedious)


 Definitely the brew temp I'm more worried about getting right. Because I'll be doing this at work I want it to be as efficent as poss so we're not always hanging around the coffee machine for 30 mins! If I can turn it on to warm, get set up for the day, go make a coffee/hot chocolate for other half, back to desk, that will be a better set up for us than wondering if it's right, waiting for lights to go on and off etc.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Tempest said:


> ...
> 
> Also, finally, does anyone know if the PID kits on ebay claiming to be the Mr Shades kits are legit and slightly more expensive to account for his costs in using the Ebay platform? Or is that someone doing something iffy and trading on his name? I think I'm about to bite the bullet and buy a PID and a bottomless portafilter as these additions will likely put me in a position high enough for years and years of happy latte making but I want to make sure that if I buy on ebay I'm supporting the actual person who designed the items and it's legit.
> 
> ...


 Yes, if it's the £99 listings then that's me - I'm "shadenville" on eBay... though it's better for both of us if you buy direct rather than via eBay ?

Just PM me...


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

MrShades said:


> Just PM me...


 Sent


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Tempest said:


> Sent


Replied!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

MrShades said:


> Replied!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Shipped.... that was a bit quicker than "end of October"  (I'd still got the listing set to "10 days shipping" from when I last went on holiday - have changed it now).


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

MrShades said:


> Shipped.... that was a bit quicker than "end of October"  (I'd still got the listing set to "10 days shipping" from when I last went on holiday - have changed it now).


 Yes, thank you so much for getting it in the post so quickly. I will be doing a full tear down and rebuild with the new parts, opv mod and PID this weekend! I anticipate the machine being adequate for me for a very long time so it was the right thing to invest in and the right time to do it when I wanted to clean the boiler/solenoid and change all the seals anyway. Might as well do it all in one go!


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Tempest said:


> Yes, thank you so much for getting it in the post so quickly. I will be doing a full tear down and rebuild with the new parts, opv mod and PID this weekend! I anticipate the machine being adequate for me for a very long time so it was the right thing to invest in and the right time to do it when I wanted to clean the boiler/solenoid and change all the seals anyway. Might as well do it all in one go!


Sounds like a plan!

Although one thing I would recommend is doing everything in stages... so strip it all down and clean it all, and change the seals - and then put it back together again (as standard) and ensure everything works again as it should.... and only once you're sure it's all still working properly then embark on the PID install.

If you do it this way then it'll be much easier to fault find if you have issues.

If you strip it, clean it and change seals, and fit the PID at the same time - and something then doesn't work properly afterwards, it'll be a nightmare to try and fault find as you'll have changed so many things in one go.

Try and reduce the variables and do it in stages.

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

MrShades said:


> Sounds like a plan!
> 
> Although one thing I would recommend is doing everything in stages... so strip it all down and clean it all, and change the seals - and then put it back together again (as standard) and ensure everything works again as it should.... and only once you're sure it's all still working properly then embark on the PID install.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the flashbacks of that possessed machine!


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

I actually read about that today. I think mine should be pretty standard inside. It was owned by the same person for it's whole life before me and that person upgraded to a Sage all in one job a few years ago and left the GC in a cupboard until he decided it was time to move it onto somewhere it would be used. So hopefully nothing needs to be exorcized from mine ?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Tempest said:


> I actually read about that today. I think mine should be pretty standard inside. It was owned by the same person for it's whole life before me and that person upgraded to a Sage all in one job a few years ago and left the GC in a cupboard until he decided it was time to move it onto somewhere it would be used. So hopefully nothing needs to be exorcized from mine


It turned out to be a couple of wires switched so a jumper from one was going to the wrong terminal of the switch. 
So long as you number the connections on the switch bank & take loads of pics you'll be fine.


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## Andori (Sep 10, 2019)

I'm hoping to try and do my Classic at the weekend as well. I've had most of the stuff for doing it for a while now, just not got round to it. Just need to order the PID kit from @MrShades (I was looking at getting the individual parts, but have decided to go the easy route).


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Andori said:


> I'm hoping to try and do my Classic at the weekend as well. I've had most of the stuff for doing it for a while now, just not got round to it. Just need to order the PID kit from @MrShades (I was looking at getting the individual parts, but have decided to go the easy route).


Good choice. The copious instructions & after sales support are well worth the extra you'll pay over scrawling the interwebs for all the bits separately.


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## Andori (Sep 10, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> Andori said:
> 
> 
> > I'm hoping to try and do my Classic at the weekend as well. I've had most of the stuff for doing it for a while now, just not got round to it. Just need to order the PID kit from @MrShades (I was looking at getting the individual parts, but have decided to go the easy route).
> ...


 That's what I figured. I'd want the PT100 anyway (rather than the K-type thermocouple) that is bundled with most PID controllers on the bay or Amazon and looking at the cheaper Rex C100s, it is a bit of a lottery on whether they have the right terminals fitted. Then you are into a lottery with SSRs, you could go with RS for what should be a known quantity but then looking at significantly more cost. Then you need to source a suitable enclosure. Finally you need to wait a bit longer for stuff to come from the far east (or pay a bit more for some UK based stock).

As you say, the support, detailed instructions and a one-stop-shop are worth the few pounds you'd save.

Going back to doing a full teardown like the OP is currently planning, I think the bit I'm most nervous about is getting the heating elements wet and having to dry them out.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Andori said:


> Going back to doing a full teardown like the OP is currently planning, I think the bit I'm most nervous about is getting the heating elements wet and having to dry them out.


It's quite easy to keep them dry if you're careful. Wrapping the outside with cling film to protect from splashes etc could help some.


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

Good luck with the PIDs guys, IMO it's an essential upgrade for a classic, do lots of labelling and take lots of pics and you'll be fine!


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

PID showed up this morning, thank you @MrShades for the excellent service and quick shipping.

I believe I will go on day one and strip machine, split boiler (I really want to know if it's OK or has a lot of scale) clean it and everything else (I have a bottle of Gaggia descaler for this purpose), renew steam valve/tstats/gaskets and rebuild. Test. If all OK the next day I will do the PID fitment.

The instructions are likely worth half the cost of the kit alone, just looking at them. I believe I will print them off and after reading them a few times, get started, ticking off each step as I am sure I have completed it correctly. Knowing I can get help if I struggle is also a big value add of the cost of the kit if you're not an appliance repair/Gaggia expert! I intend to label everything with a fine sharpie and take pics each step as well for reference. I have nothing on this weekend from lunchtime Saturday so I can take my time.

Just realised my post had a lot of questions and the one about 'grinds' in the cup got lost amongst the fact I had too many lol. I have grinds in quotes as they're more like powder than something you'd feel in your mouth. Is that normal, is that grinding too fine, is it a poor basket, is it the fact my Mignon is still 'brand new' and has only had approximately a kg of beans through it yet so not fully seasoned?


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

ok so my switch pack was knackered apparently and it has fallen apart. It was also full of old coffee grounds which Im sure hasn't helped! I will continue to strip down but does anyone also have a recommendation where to get one for reasonable money? I'm off to do a wanted post as well but would like it repaired asap as well!


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

Well, this is going well. I'm going to put it all back together as much as I can and then go throw it in the river.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Tempest said:


> Well, this is going well. I'm going to put it all back together as much as I can and then go throw it in the river.


LOL - it cant be THAT bad, nothing with a Classic is that bad!

Did the switchbank actually break or just come apart? If you remove the central steel rod that runs through it then it tends to explode under the pressure of the many springs that are inside it. They're complex little beasts but usually unless the plastic has broken then you can put them back together again (if it's just the rod that has come out).

Anything else gone horribly wrong?

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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

The plastic broke and to be honest it looks like the last owner got a lot of water and grounds in there so it might as well be replaced. I could likely put it back together enough to make the machine work until the new one comes.

My OPV is (was) seized together (I'm a stubborn bitch). The 3 way valve is seized together and because it doesn't have a place to get two proper spanners on it I had had to concede defeat but I think it's got scale in it as the group and steam wand will not give water at the same time on any setting on this machine. I'll try the agitation cleaning technique once it's back together.

The steam valve looks like it was almost on fire at some point in it's life, luckily I have a new one. The dispersion plate is a literal disgrace so while I'm into the machine for this much money a brass one fell into the cart with the switch. The forum seems to be lagging on notifications so someone did respond to my wanted ad to offer me a used one but I'd ordered the new by then so c'est la vie.

My dining room table looks like a Gaggia bloodbath took place, parts everywhere! My boiler doesn't look like it's ever seen descaler in life before today. But by midnight it should be clean and back in one piece waiting for the new switches and dispersion plate haha.

I work in IT now. I thought the days of cuts all over my hands and this many tools on a bench was behind me.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

At least I've had moral support!


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

For taking the solenoid valve apart you want mole grips to hold the bottom part and a spanner on the nut at the bottom of the 'pillar' - it's normally quite hard to turn!

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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Oh, and the steam wand and group won't necessarily give water at the same time.

Without the steam button pressed you should find that when you hit the brew button water comes out of the group. If you then also open the steam valve you may also find that water comes out of the steam wand.

With the steam button pressed, if you open the steam valve immediately and press the brew button then you'll get water from the steam valve. If you turn the brew button off and close the steam valve then it'll heat up to steam temp and you'll then have steam available out of the steam wand (without hitting the brew switch).

If you have the steam button on and just hit the brew switch then you won't get water from anywhere (it'll flow from the OPV back into the tank) unless you open the steam valve and get water out of it.

HTH

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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

MrShades said:


> For taking the solenoid valve apart you want mole grips to hold the bottom part and a spanner on the nut at the bottom of the 'pillar' - it's normally quite hard to turn!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 yeah, I have a cheap adjustable spanner and proper spanners. I can't get it off. Maybe it's fine and I've misunderstood the video. I want to lower the pressure so I'm glad I got the OPV apart at least, so it won't be a total nightmare to get that apart when I'm back up and running. Reassembly such as it is for now is commencing.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Tempest said:


> yeah, I have a cheap adjustable spanner and proper spanners. I can't get it off. Maybe it's fine and I've misunderstood the video. I want to lower the pressure so I'm glad I got the OPV apart at least, so it won't be a total nightmare to get that apart when I'm back up and running. Reassembly such as it is for now is commencing.


Keep going ... it's all a good learning process!

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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

Good grief.

So the OPV wasn't opening, presumably giving you crazy pressures, and the 3 way was stuck as well? What on earth happened to the steam valve.

Was the previous owner a Balrog?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Michael87 said:


> Good grief.
> So the OPV wasn't opening, presumably giving you crazy pressures, and the 3 way was stuck as well? What on earth happened to the steam valve.
> Was the previous owner a Balrog?


I'm still wondering how coffee grounds managed to get into the switch bank!
This machine has certainly led a strange life before the OP got their hands on it.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

I don't think there is anything functionally wrong with the opv, I just couldn't get the nut off the top of it. I have managed, through stubborness lol.

I don't think the steam has been right as long as I've owned it. It leaks water it leaks steam, it recently started dripping water out of the case onto the drip tray. I knew it was knackered I had a new one in stock ready to go, along with a new knob which is also knackered. The valve did not want to come out of the boiler. If it was in situ I don't think it would have come out. The appature for the steam valve onto the top of the boiler took some cleaning too. It was a disgrace. It's all put back together now with new steam valve, new silvia wand, new knob, and a bit of my blood ?. I look like I've been back on the spanners. Guess I kind of have but cuts all over my hands.

Now when the new switch pack comes I'll swap it over, do the priming the boiler with water proceedure and test for leaks. Then, next weekend it seems, I'll do my pid. But Mr Shades was right, way better to take it apart, learn how it all comes out, and then start messing with altering the wiring. Now just hope it doesn't start blowing fuses when I turn it back on.?


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

Michael87 said:


> Good grief.
> 
> So the OPV wasn't opening, presumably giving you crazy pressures, and the 3 way was stuck as well? What on earth happened to the steam valve.
> 
> Was the previous owner a Balrog?





ashcroc said:


> I'm still wondering how coffee grounds managed to get into the switch bank!
> This machine has certainly led a strange life before the OP got their hands on it.


 I'm not sure about the three way I'll do the experiments Mr Shades mentions above when I can actually turn the machine on.

The switch bank is messy. I could glue the plastic frame back together now that I found the piece of plastic but to be honest I'd struggle to trust it again because I would always be thinking about the fact it was a bit corroded inside and I glued it back together.?


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

So my new switch has arrived. I assume that I fit the new switch, turn the machine on, and then promptly run water until it comes out the grouphead and the steam wand to make sure the boiler is filled back up before it gets hot? Then let it heat/check for leaks?


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Tempest said:


> So my new switch has arrived. I assume that I fit the new switch, turn the machine on, and then promptly run water until it comes out the grouphead and the steam wand to make sure the boiler is filled back up before it gets hot? Then let it heat/check for leaks?


 or, initially, just remove one of the connections from the steam thermostat (on top of the boiler) - this will stop the machine heating up, but everything else will (probably) work.....


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

MrShades said:


> or, initially, just remove one of the connections from the steam thermostat (on top of the boiler) - this will stop the machine heating up, but everything else will (probably) work.....


 Worked a treat. It's had two containers of water through to flush anything left over out. No leaks, made two shots that went right down the sink to clear anything out of the group and use up the old beans sitting in the grinder all week and she's ready to get practicing again in the AM. The shots looked good though really good for stale beans. Gotta say the temp cycled on and off a lot less on the new stats, already seems more stable. Then one stat says buh bye at the weekend. It lives!


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

And with that, my tools can again be retired and the Classic can go back to being a coffee machine, just a better one. It's now got a functioning PID, a functioning Silvia steam wand and has been modified to OPV 9 bar. Was actually going to stop when PID was done and convinced myself it was stupid to have to take it all to bits again next weekend just for 15 mins messing with the OPV, especially given I'd made sure it would come apart last weekend when the machine was in bits so I knew getting the 'lid' off would be fairly straight forward. My knuckles and I are very glad it's all done and the tools are back in the box where they belong.

Thanks to everyone who helped, commiserated, encouraged and resisted the urge I'm sure occasionally cropped up to tell me to stop whining!?

I will certainly keep practising with my naked portafilter. I'm quite proud of the fact even my first use of it failed to coat the kitchen in coffee haha. While I had the tools out and was being handy I also made a fancy new WDT tool ? Picture attached for your lols.

My next pack of beans is some sort of Ethiopian with tasting notes that likely put it still beyond my palate but I'm sure they're grateful for the PID and the pressure change as well. Didn't want to use them when I couldn't get the best out of them. Now I hope I can!


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Good news, hopefully the tools will stay put for a while.

One of the nice things on the PID is you can push up the steam temperature (i think i'm running at 150C) and get a little more power, but remember to switch off the the steam after use and back to brewing otherwise it gets rather hot and dry! :good:


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

Agentb said:


> Good news, hopefully the tools will stay put for a while.
> 
> One of the nice things on the PID is you can push up the steam temperature (i think i'm running at 150C) and get a little more power, but remember to switch off the the steam after use and back to brewing otherwise it gets rather hot and dry! :good:


 The steam is the one thing that still needs tweaking. It seems almost like it runs out of steam before I get to the froth temp. Having had the boiler open I know there isn't much scale in it so I don't think there is any sort of reduced water capacity. Will try sending the temp upward a bit and see if it improves this.

I am totally paranoid about turning the steam off as soon as I've purged after frothing and then refilling the boiler/wand with water. Given the state of my steam valve before I renewed it last week I think I can safely say the previous owner was not so careful. As per the above comment I think he may have been a balrog lol.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Agentb said:


> Good news, hopefully the tools will stay put for a while.
> 
> One of the nice things on the PID is you can push up the steam temperature (i think i'm running at 150C) and get a little more power, but remember to switch off the the steam after use and back to brewing otherwise it gets rather hot and dry!


I tend to run my steam at 147°C (+8° offset) to mimic the uprated 155° stat that can be fitted. Much higher than that & you're running the risk of the thermal fuse blowing.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Tempest said:


> The steam is the one thing that still needs tweaking. It seems almost like it runs out of steam before I get to the froth temp.


 I don't know how much milk you are trying to steam, i usually find it's ok for 190-200 ml. Which quite enough for a decent sized latte.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

Agentb said:


> I don't know how much milk you are trying to steam, i usually find it's ok for 190-200 ml. Which quite enough for a decent sized latte.


 I have a 300ml Bodum glass for lattes and am currently pulling triple shots at about 63g so I'd say about 200ml is what I'm doing. Maybe a smidge more. Small frothing pitcher filled to just a bit under the spout as per most vids I've watched anyway.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> I tend to run my steam at 147°C (+8° offset) to mimic the uprated 155° stat that can be fitted. Much higher than that & you're running the risk of the thermal fuse blowing.


 The thermal fuse is allegedly 184C so a bit of overshoot room. The original stats are probably plus or minus 5 at least i would think.



Tempest said:


> I have a 300ml Bodum glass for lattes and am currently pulling triple shots at about 63g so I'd say about 200ml is what I'm doing. Maybe a smidge more. Small frothing pitcher filled to just a bit under the spout as per most vids I've watched anyway.


 The Gaggia classic boiler is about 110 ml (?) so the longer the shot you draw the more cold water enters the boiler and then the PID is trying to catch up.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Agentb said:


> The thermal fuse is allegedly 184C so a bit of overshoot room. The original stats are probably plus or minus 5 at least i would think.


Yeah it's the overshoot I'm worried about & since I get good enough steam, I've no need to go higher. If I ever do manage to blow the thermal fuse, I'll probably replace it with a resettable one if I can find one rated at a high enough temp that'll fit where the (now superfluous) steam stat goes.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

Well, I was going to take it to work tomorrow but I think I can safely say at 9 bar I'm grinding way too fine and still have some figuring/dialing in to do so I'll play at home for another week.

It was about 11 seconds for coffee to show on the bottom of the basket and the shot was a tad bitter. I've never had bitter before only sour so that was almost nice? lol. At least I can loosen the grind up a bit and hope to hit balanced now that I'm not fighting against about 17!!! bar static. No wonder the grind was so fine there was sediment in the cup. It's way too fine at the adjusted pressure that's for sure. That's at a 22g in a 21g triple basket dose.

It's easy enough to set the PID higher to mimic the uprated t-stat as had I not gone the PID route I likely would have fit the 155C anyway. I do get the milk frothed, it just sounds/seems to be pretty much out of steam by the time it hits 65C.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

One adjustment coarser is better but still too fine. Shot came out of the bottomless beautifully though, just a bit slow. My homemade WDT tool makes a huge difference, as funny as it looks! Have to acknowledge my cheap tamper is horrible though. Time for a new one, likely needs to be 58.4mm as I'm sick of trying to whisk the little walls of coffee grounds down off the edges of the basket. That said, I don't get any signs of channelling so my prep is clearly pretty good, not that there isn't always room for improvement as I think I might have seen a dead spot as well but I'll keep using the naked as I quite enjoy the watching the shot spread across the bottom and turn into lovely tiger stripes.

Even at 46 seconds for 63g the Ethiopian is pretty tasty. I can finally taste acidity not sourness. Quite excited to get the grinder dialed in for the new pressure and see just how good I can get my shots now that everything else can be properly controlled and held static around grind.


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## Andori (Sep 10, 2019)

Tempest said:


> At least I can loosen the grind up a bit and hope to hit balanced now that I'm not fighting against about 17!!! bar static.


 ???

How much did you have to back off the OPV? I measured mine at about 12 bar before adjustment and took 1/2 turn off to get to 10 bar.


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## Tempest (Sep 19, 2019)

Andori said:


> ???
> 
> How much did you have to back off the OPV? I measured mine at about 12 bar before adjustment and took 1/2 turn off to get to 10 bar.


 likely about 2.5 full turns? I can't really remember. I just kept tweaking and testing again until it sat at 10 static. It took about four adjustments. The difference is immense though! Anyone who buys a Classic should get it done straight away. I bought the gauge outright and I'll likely never use it again but I consider it money well spent. I was wondering why when I bought the right grinder for my level and was using good, fresh coffee I still couldn't get a decent shot and it was the pressure all day. Once I get the grind dialled in for the pressure I'm finally confident I can make good shots. The things I could taste in the shot this morning was eye opening. I taste all the espresso shots straight before I make my lattes just so I can see if things are improving taste wise before I hide some of the taste with milk and I thought I'd never taste anything but 'coffee' but I was so wrong!


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Tempest said:


> It's easy enough to set the PID higher to mimic the uprated t-stat as had I not gone the PID route I likely would have fit the 155C anyway. I do get the milk frothed, it just sounds/seems to be pretty much out of steam by the time it hits 65C.


 Well you will be in for a pleasant surprise when you set it set it to 155C... :good:


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