# When is an espresso not…….



## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

I've been around the espresso coffee scene probably more years than most (on here).

There have been changes over the years. Espresso in the UK came on in the late '50s/'60s mostly with lever machines & a lot of canned high roasted beans imported from Italy & Holland. There were one or two Italian style roasters here producing the norm, for the time, dark glossy beans with all the flavours roasted out. Good fresh roasted beans but not really suited for espresso have always been available in the High Street.

Coffee tastes for something better than 'freeze dried' & percolator then changed to a filter beverage, US style. You drank gallons of the stuff served in bottomless cups. Oh boy! how tasteless was that.

Espresso as we now or did know it, crept back into the UK via Seattle, packaged tours & opening up of world wide travel. Then more or less leading to the current unmentionable chains & our favoured artisan roasters.

I believe we are now entering another era.

The EK43 is creating different thinking & producing yet another style of espresso. Without doubt its very different. Its not a love it or hate it relationship just different.

Is this still an espresso or have we now got a new style drink?

I quote an example with a Versalab the norm for espresso was a formula around 18 grams in = 18/28 grams out in 28 seconds including 3 seconds pre infusion requiring a change of grind for each different bean. With the EK the best espressos I now produce are still with 18 grams in but equalling around 30-40 grams out in around 30-35 seconds including 3 seconds pre infusion. It appears to me that you could get away with very little alteration to grind. In fact subtle differences can make subtle differences to taste for the coffee enthusiasts. How much easier can these grinders make a coffee shop operation. Possibly almost eliminating the tedious/skilled dialling- in, helping to lead into the production of a better more consistent cup.

A passing phase or here to stay.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Interesting thoughts Ron, going from what Colin Harmon said about when 3FE moved to using the EK only it has good and bad points for use in a busy coffee shop, I think that given what it produces the EK is a step forward but not the finished product, for home use unless you need to make 18 coffees or so consecutively I can see the point in weighing out into little pots in advance being a good idea, for typical home use I see very little point in doing this as people were happy enough to weigh out their beans just before grinding when single dosing so why move to pre weighing into containers with an EK it seems an unnecessary extra step to me.

I think that in the not too distant future there will be new grinders using a similar concept to an EK but in a much more user friendly form, and also some exploration of the other machines of its type such as the Mahlkonig grinder that looks like R2D2 and has even bigger burrs than an EK. For me right now I'm more than happy to keep on making coffee with my Mythos and the Sage, and sitting back to await further developments.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

For me there are 2 usable espresso grind settings, dependent on pre-infusion on or off. 10 seconds preinfusion seems the sweet spot for full saturation of the puck.

pre-infusion off = setting 1.4-1.7 (coffee dependent)

10 seconds pre-infusion = setting 1.0-1.1

The non-preinfusion shots seem more conventional but one-dimentional. The pre-infusion shots are thinner in body but far sweeter and less prone to sudden gushing at the end of the pour.

Im finding a standard 20 -> 32g is quite amazing with a splash of hot water to open it up, otherwise 20 -> 40-60g coffee dependent.

Still loads of experiments to action yet!


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Charliej said:


> the Mahlkonig grinder that looks like R2D2 and has even bigger burrs than an EK.


Is that a Guatemala variant? If so Kofra in Norwich has one, only using it for filter though. Amazing clarity on the clever dripper.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

The EK43 produces an espresso with a very different body/mouthfeel compared to a 'conventional' grinder which inevitably invites comparison. If espresso were judged predominantly on body/ mouthfeel characteristics - the EK would fail.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Great post Ron. From what I have experienced the EK certainly produces a drink that although made on the same machines as espresso, is certainly a different type of beverage. This to me is in both taste, mouthfeel and quantity of drink produced.

Taste - The flavours seem sweeter and fruitier than traditional espresso an and there is extra clarity in the cup

Mouthfeel - You can get close but generally shots are slightly thinner than classic espresso

Quantity - Shots are bigger on the whole which I like as a traditional espresso always seems to disappear to quickly









The other noticeable thing for me is that you can take beans that should never be used to make an espresso style drink, something very light and get really interesting new shots that taste nothing like traditional espresso.

Is it the be all and end all of espresso? No way! And if it was it would be a sad day indeed. Is it a new approach to espresso that puts convention to one side and says maybe we can do things differently, it sure is. Neither way is right or wrong, just different and as I see it the more available options the better.

I could see how the EK could be a pain in a bar situation, at home it's really easy to work with and the fact that you can switch from one bean to the next with no messing, no retention, no waste, is just awesome.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Grinder technology hasn't really made any strides in respect of increased extraction yields that benefit the end product meaning, as Spence points out, fruit forward roasts present a real challenge for conventional grinders. The EK opens up some interesting development in this area which may, in time, cause espresso to be redefined?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

The shots I tried over at Spencers were definitely different to any that I've had before.

The espresso logic has always tended to be shorter shot in the Ristretto range= sweeter tasting shots. Longer shots = bitter.

Where as the shots that Spence was pulling was 50g out from 20g and still had an incredible sweetness to them. Much thinner and with a brewed quality cleanness to them.

Not sure what you'd define them as (Uber Lungo) but definitely different.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Despite the differences, the EK obviously still scores highly in all the main necessities as demonstrated by their continued use by UKBC/WBC winners....


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

aaronb said:


> Is that a Guatemala variant? If so Kofra in Norwich has one, only using it for filter though. Amazing clarity on the clever dripper.


Nope Aaron its this one: http://www.mahlkoenig.com/us_products/VTA-6SW-single-phase.html/?setLanguage=en_US

The big brute with 120mm burrs and 3 burr sets available for it Turkish, Espresso and Coffee, a standard Guatemala only has 71mm burrs.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

aaronb said:


> Despite the differences, the EK obviously still scores highly in all the main necessities as demonstrated by their continued use by UKBC/WBC winners....


Yeah but UKBC/WBC has very little resemblance to standard coffee shop service in the same way that formula one cars may have 4 wheels and an engine the same as standard car but thats about all they have in common. Competitions amongst professionals in almost any field is very different to everyday life and usage of those professional skills, even though there is inevitably a trickle down of some techniques and technologies used.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Charliej said:


> Nope Aaron its this one: http://www.mahlkoenig.com/us_products/VTA-6SW-single-phase.html/?setLanguage=en_US
> 
> The big brute with 120mm burrs and 3 burr sets available for it Turkish, Espresso and Coffee, a standard Guatemala only has 71mm burrs.


that is a seriously cool grinder!



Charliej said:


> Yeah but UKBC/WBC has very little resemblance to standard coffee shop service in the same way that formula one cars may have 4 wheels and an engine the same as standard car but thats about all they have in common. Competitions amongst professionals in almost any field is very different to everyday life and usage of those professional skills, even though there is inevitably a trickle down of some techniques and technologies used.


I meant more in the taste / mouthfeel / technical aspects of the espresso itself rather than every day service, agree with your point there.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Charliej said:


> Nope Aaron its this one: http://www.mahlkoenig.com/us_products/VTA-6SW-single-phase.html/?setLanguage=en_US
> 
> The big brute with 120mm burrs and 3 burr sets available for it Turkish, Espresso and Coffee, a standard Guatemala only has 71mm burrs.


You can probably even get hold of these ones.....

Would be interesting if they did a version of the ek with these burrs. I wonder if there would be much of a difference in grind quality or if it would just be speed.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> You can probably even get hold of these ones.....
> 
> Would be interesting if they did a version of the ek with these burrs. I wonder if there would be much of a difference in grind quality or if it would just be speed.


No idea Spence but would sure be interesting to try one out they even offer a 3 phase version of it lol but either version 2.75 kg per minute is an insane grind speed makes an EK look a little slow even. One thing I do wonder is that is the grind quality from an EK the way it is because it has no actual time to heat up because it's ground so fast.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Charliej said:


> No idea Spence but would sure be interesting to try one out they even offer a 3 phase version of it lol but either version 2.75 kg per minute is an insane grind speed makes an EK look a little slow even. One thing I do wonder is that is the grind quality from an EK the way it is because it has no actual time to heat up because it's ground so fast.


Maybe but I've never felt any heat in the royal from normal usage though.

It could be a combination of number of factors like the bigger burrs would take more energy to heat them up to a temp that would cause expansion. The burrs would have a bigger surface area to dissipate any heat faster. It may just be better burr design/shape/quality. There are so many things that it could be.

I look forward to seeing how they decide to improve it to be honest.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

If anyone tell you the EK43 doesn't produce fines









And that's a 25 second shot at 1.7 ....not exactly fine by the EKs standards


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> If anyone tell you the EK43 doesn't produce fines
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mr Perger's analysis show it produces more fines than most, no?

This is why I still can't understand the thinner/gushier shots....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I wanna know what's that In Gary's hand ....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> I wanna know what's that In Gary's hand ....


The underneath of a Piccolo


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Xpenno said:


> Mr Perger's analysis show it produces more fines than most, no?
> 
> This is why I still can't understand the thinner/gushier shots....


Most people haven't read or understood that analysis and are still banging on about lack of fines / uniformity.

I think the 'gushing' could be that we haven't addressed the shot prep/distribution in the same way we would with a conventional grinder


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Just had another look at MP's article. In the test the EK grind was 90% finer than the Robur whether you look at mean, median or mode yet only produced 3% more fines which is incredible. So you can go finer and finer in the grind to get that elusive high extraction yield. Why EK shots taste a tad thinner is a poser and I look forward to someone providing an explanation.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Most people haven't read or understood that analysis and are still banging on about lack of fines / uniformity.
> 
> I think the 'gushing' could be that we haven't addressed the shot prep/distribution in the same way we would with a conventional grinder


Could well be, much less gushier when using the sieve and when we used the anfim doser as well.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I like this definition

" Anything lovely that comes out of that machine over there..... "


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> I wanna know what's that In Gary's hand ....


Is does look like an ornate door knob to somewhere magical.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Could the thinner shots be down to the fact that although they produce a greater percentage of fines, the size variance from fines to large is much smaller so that the fines don't migrate as much and fill in the gaps in the puck as much so under pressure from the water the puck is less densely packed?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Charliej said:


> Could the thinner shots be down to the fact that although they produce a greater percentage of fines, the size variance from fines to large is much smaller so that the fines don't migrate as much and fill in the gaps in the puck as much so under pressure from the water the puck is less densely packed?


It's likely down to a few aspects, that could well be a factor. Also consider that the shots tend to be more diluted, otherwise the higher ext. yields & high concentrations together could make shots too pungent? Another factor is that dissolved solids (%TDS) are, well, "dissolved", e.g. liquid & much as what is perceived to be body/mouthfeel is largely down to the undissolved solids... this could also be relevant to the point you make Charlie.

My feelings on the OP are that, whilst the EK certainly seems to have unique properties & subsequent effect on shots, that "espresso" is a term that carries a lot of plasticity if we think in terms of brew ratios (5:1 & shorter), TDS (from ~4% upwards) & extraction yield (lacked real attempts at definition until quite recently). Any grinder may have tangible effects on a shot (the EK also seems to have a similar effect on manual brewed percolation too), but the machine the shot is brewed in really defines whether it is "espresso" (since 1938 - pressure brewed with crema), or not...whether the brew ratio is 5% or 200%.


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

I think we should call these drinks EKspressos


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