# Barista Touch



## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Hi all.

Reposting here as it's probably a better place to ask then the "new member" section. 😀

I've been using a De'Longhi Magnifica bean to cup machine for some years now but it gave up the ghost just recently so a replacement has been purchased; Cabin fever, man maths and the sun & stars aligned and I got a deal on a Sage Barista Touch.

Have been watching a load of You Tube videos and learned quite a bit but I am struggling. Most of the info I'm finding suggest that coffee shouldn't start running from the portafilter for at least seven seconds or so, (the instruction manual suggests an eight to twelve second window). I've played around with grind size, (seemed too course as coffee was pouring to fast), and dose, (which was a lot less in weight than it should be using a preset), but I am still getting coffee pouring after around four to five seconds and the crema is very thin. Dose is now taking 28 seconds to grind to get the right weight in the portafilter and grind size is set to 9. Puck is solid enough when knocked out and stays in shape but the coffee is a little bitter and "thin". Beans are Barista Reserve from Coffee Direct and they were roasted on 20/10. Maybe get hold of another, (fresher), bag of beans?

My guess is that the problem is me and/or the beans rather than the machine, but looking to correct whatever the problem is. Of course I may just be over thinking it and there is no problem at all!! 😁

All feedback welcome.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Do you know what weights you're getting in the portafilter then out in coffee?


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## N0rmanski (Oct 15, 2020)

If you have coffee pouring early, you need a finer grind and/or harder tamping. 
Change one of those variables at a time to see what effect it has. 
also use fresh beans! Beans roasted within a month or so.


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## damo6925 (Jul 26, 2020)

Got one of these machines and I usually see coffee out of the portafilter at around 6/7 seconds.

28 seconds of grinding seems like an awful lot. For example my current beans take 20 seconds to reach the required 18g of coffee...

As someone has already pointed out, maybe get some scales and see if you can get to 18g.

How is the coffee coming out when it starts? Is it quite watery or is it choking? When I get new beans I usually get my grind right first, time wise (usually 18-22 seconds) then get it to choke up very slightly... I then go courser by one setting and it usually does the trick...

Last but not least, you can adjust the burrs on the top manually. There's loads of info about how to do it online, I changed mine from the standard setting of 5 or 6 I think it was, down to 4. This allowed me to grind finer without going all the way down to 1/2/3/4 on the grinder adjustment on the side if that makes sense?

By no means a seasoned pro, far from it in fact, I'm sure many others could give you a pointer but they are just a few things I have learnt in the first 4 months of ownership... Hope they help you too!

By the way, ive never got anywhere near 12 seconds before the coffee starts to flow!










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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Thanks for the replies. I'll try to answer in order. 

I was trying to get 18g of ground coffee into the portafilter which is why the grind length was so long. I have not weighed the extracted liquid coffee.

Tried a finer grind and the coffee was just dribbling from the portafilter. Tamp is quite hard, I ain't the strongest geezer in the world but I am no seven stone weakling either!  However if you were to ask me the tamp weight, I honestly couldn't tell you. The puck stay intact when knocked out if that is any indication?

Regarding beans, where do I buy to ensure fresh? Looking for on line vendors as there, (to my knowledge), is nowhere close to me. I'm also having to "shield" due to my wife's health so going out to shop at the moment is pretty much a non starter. 

When the coffee first starts to run it is very dark, almost black. After a second, maybe slightly less, it turns to a lightish brown/fawny colour.

Had a quick google about changing the grind setting at the burr but couldn't see anything except for the only way I know, which is the dial on the side. Got a link?

All help is a help my friend and I appreciate it. To be honest at the moment I've sort of got the feeling that I shouldn't have bought the machine and gone for something different. I'm hoping to lose that feeling soon. I also which I'd found this forum before I made the purchase, but I've made my bed now!! 😁

Edited to add that with the grind length and setting I have, after tamping I use the supplied razor and am "just" trimming of a little surplus.


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## damo6925 (Jul 26, 2020)

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/index.html

That link should work. Not the same machine exactly as yours, but the process is identical so you can watch that and see how to adjust.

I would definitely weigh your grounds into your basket, get exactly 18g. Makes a big difference. If you are trimming some off the top with the razor you are more than likely putting more than 18g in, thereby wasting coffee and also meaning you can't grind finer because you've too much.

So, I would, weigh exactly 18g, see how that runs. I would guess with less coffee, it would go faster than before. You can then start to adjust your grind finer. Note...if you adjust your grind and grind for the same time as before, the amount you get will change, so make sure you weigh again!

What beans are you using? Apologies if you have already said and I've missed it! Could be the beans!

There are loads of online retailers to get your coffee from and most are great. There is a sticky on here somewhere with all the different online companies, I'll see if I can find it.
@BlackCatCoffee would be a decent place to start or@Crownandcanvas. Both sponsors on here and very helpful. If you message either, they will likely give you an ideal recipe for their beans to help you.

Stick at it, it's hard work to begin with, but worth it in the end. It probably doesn't help that you are trying to get somewhere in the 8-12 seconds ratio before coffee drops, which I've never got close to. Maybe someone else has? Who knows!

But if your coffee flows well and you're getting 18g of coffee into 36-38g of liquid you shouldn't be far off and that time at the beginning for me at least is largely irrelevant...average for me is 6-7 seconds...

I'm sure there are some more seasoned veterans who will be able to advise you better than I can!

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## damo6925 (Jul 26, 2020)

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/1305-uk-based-roasters/

Here's your link of UK based roasters!

Forgot to add, if you search the forum for any that you like, often there is a discount code for forum members...

Also just seen the beans you are using. I'm not familiar with that company personally but roasted on 20/10 whilst not really fresh isn't the end of the world. Maybe worth trying another bean however to see if that makes a difference?










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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Cheers Damo, appreciate your time and replies. I'll weigh out today with the grind setting I have and report back with findings.


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## damo6925 (Jul 26, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Cheers Damo, appreciate your time and replies. I'll weigh out today with the grind setting I have and report back with findings.


Sounds good, let us know how you get on!

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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

@damo6925 has covered most of it, I'd just add read the sticky in the Sage forum, make sure you're doing all those things. Get some fresh beans, rest them for a bit and try again. You'll definitely have to adjust that top burr.


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

OK. Found time earlier than I though I would!!

Settings as they stand:-

29s grind time

06 grind size

With those settings I get 17g of ground coffee and 77g of liquid coffee after a 26s brew. Pour started after 5s.

Edited to add this is with double cup setting and using the double shot single wall basket


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## damo6925 (Jul 26, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> OK. Found time earlier than I though I would!!
> Settings as they stand:-
> 29s grind time
> 06 grind size
> With those settings I get 17g of ground coffee and 77g of liquid coffee after a 26s brew. Pour started after 5s.


Ok so you definitely need to go finer. You are getting way too much liquid out for the amount of coffee going in.

So, grind finer, but weigh your 18g again. If you do the same time as before (29s) it likely won't be the same weight.

I'd go as low as somewhere around 3...

If you adjust the top burr as per the video down to 4, it will give you more range to play with... So your 6 now would probably be more like a 9/10/11...

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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Meant to add some pictures in the last post, don't know if they will tell a story or not but I'll post anyway. This puck is from the pour above. I'll adjust the burr as you suggest and see where we go.

Should I shorten the brew time?


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## damo6925 (Jul 26, 2020)

Don't worry about the brew time for now. Adjust one thing at a time. So adjust the grind finer and get your 18g then go again and see what happens...aim for 36g of liquid...

Your time can be changed once you have the prep right to get the right amount of liquid. As long as it's between 25 and 30 seconds you are there or there abouts... Most of my shots run to between 28 and 32 seconds usually

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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Turning into a coffee morning!!

OK, adjusted the burr down to 4; grind @ 25s and grind size increased to 10, (due to turning the burr down).

Coffee ground = 15g and coffee into the cup = 85g

So from this I think I should decrease grind to 7?


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

I've now got a grind size of 02, grind length of 29s which gives me 14g ground coffee. brew length is the same and the pour started after 7s and I end up with 50g of coffee in the cup.

Looks like it's going in the right direction.

Am I right to think, (assuming the same grind time), that if I decrease the grind size I get less coffee weight?


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## damo6925 (Jul 26, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> I've now got a grind size of 02, grind length of 29s which gives me 14g ground coffee. brew length is the same and the pour started after 7s and I end up with 50g of coffee in the cup.
> Looks like it's going in the right direction.
> Am I right to think, (assuming the same grind time), that if I decrease the grind size I get less coffee weight?


Great you are going in the right direction. I have a feeling it's those beans that aren't helping you... 29 second grind time seems an awful lot to only get 14g of coffee out.

As an example for me at the moment, I'm grind size 9, for 20 seconds which gives me 18g of coffee. Brew time of 30 seconds gives me 36-38g of coffee in the cup.

I would definitely try some other beans and see how you go.

If you grind finer, I believe you get less or at least lighter amount of coffee. That's why every time you change your grind you need to re-weigh.

The magic number you are aiming for is 18g...every single time for now. So if you're getting 14/15/16 etc just grind some more. You always want 18g in the basket. That way when you change the grind, your comparisons of liquid out are fair...

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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

'Grind time' isn't a metric to measure or worry about, forget it. Put 18.2g/18.3g fresh beans in the hopper, make sure grinder is on 'double' and away you go. If you need to press button again, do so (or just adjust 'grind time' on the screen? With the BE there's a knob). What you want is 18g of ground coffee. If you don't get that grind more beans/longer.

From there see what happens. If it's too fast and you get too much output as you have been, grind finer.

PS: Not sure what you're using but if you don't have fresh beans that have been rested there's no point worrying, I'd wait until you get some fresh beans and start from there.


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Cool beans fellas. Thanks for the input.

I'll get some more beans ordered up and see if I can move forward a bit. Really appreciating your help.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Cool beans fellas. Thanks for the input.
> 
> I'll get some more beans ordered up and see if I can move forward a bit. Really appreciating your help.


 No worries, let us know how it goes. Have a read of the sticky if you haven't, things like getting water right temp make a huge difference.


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Sent an email to Black Cat Coffee asking for bean advice on bean choice. Sticky at the top of which forum fella?

Edited to add I'm guessing you mean this forum, so I'll go have a read over a coffee!!


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Sent an email to Black Cat Coffee asking for bean advice on bean choice. Sticky at the top of which forum fella?
> 
> Edited to add I'm guessing you mean this forum, so I'll go have a read over a coffee!!


 Sounds like you found it - top of Sage forum. TomHughes is one of the guys that helped me when I started, his advice is in there, I put some thoughts down after 3 months use, that should help, there's other discussion there too.


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Aye, that I did thanks. Really do wish I'd found this forum before pulling the trigger. Still, I'm not one to give up easily so weapons are primed and loaded ready for the fight!!


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Latest update. Weighed out 18g of ground coffee and got 14g of liquid coffee in the cup after a 30s brew time. Definitely need to increase the grind size as the streams were not consistent. Really struggling to find decent ground with this bean/machine combo.

On the plus side, the coffee wasn't too bad, (although I am no aficionado. Obvs!!!). Slight bitter after taste but a really subtle bitterness. Should add that there is steamed milk added which may be another fopar!! 😁


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## damo6925 (Jul 26, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Latest update. Weighed out 18g of ground coffee and got 14g of liquid coffee in the cup after a 30s brew time. Definitely need to increase the grind size as the streams were not consistent. Really struggling to find decent ground with this bean/machine combo.
> 
> On the plus side, the coffee wasn't too bad, (although I am no aficionado. Obvs!!!). Slight bitter after taste but a really subtle bitterness. Should add that there is steamed milk added which may be another fopar!!


Yeh great so you're getting somewhere. So dial it back up one or 2, get your 18g again and try again. Eventually you will get your 36g out! Making progress...

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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Does feel a bit that way which gives a warm fuzzy feeling, (or maybe that's the caffeine? 😁). Have gone and bought a leveller too. All the gear, no idea. Well maybe not but you get the idea!


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

There are four baskets with this machine, two double wall and two single wall. I read that the single wall are for beans ground on site and the double wall for pre-ground coffee.

So my question is why is this required? And what differences do the single and double wall bring?


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Right then peeps, I am really struggling with this.

Bought some beans from a local roaster yesterday, ( www.moonroast.co.uk), fresh as you like and roasted on the 25/11. Marvelous! Had a taste of a flat white while there and it was really delicious, hence the purchase of half a kilo.

I asked a few questions while there and was told, (as I have here), that I'm looking for a 2:1 ratio; 18g of ground coffee should yield 36g of liquid in the cup after a 30s brew time. Cup should be 8oz and the rest of the volume is made up with steamed milk. I also had a look at the beans after he had ground them to get an idea of grind size.

Got home and had a play. Weighed out 18g of ground beans, levelled and tamped. Hit the brew and after 30s ended up with 76g of liquid in the cup. However the run of coffee from the bottom of the PF was not a steady stream so that indicates to fine a grind? I increased the grind by one point and reduced the brew time by two seconds, (I know, should have done one thing at a time!). Same amount of coffee, (18g) produced over 90g of liquid with a 28s brew time. Coffee pour from PF was more of a steady stream this time.

Both cups had a slightly bitter after taste and neither were that close to what I tasted at the Roastery.

So should I reduce the brew time by a couple more seconds? Confused from Hampshire. 🤔


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Right then peeps, I am really struggling with this.
> 
> Bought some beans from a local roaster yesterday, ( www.moonroast.co.uk), fresh as you like and roasted on the 25/11. Marvelous! Had a taste of a flat white while there and it was really delicious, hence the purchase of half a kilo.
> 
> ...


 First of all beans are too fresh. They need to be rested for at least 5 days. I use 10 days as a rule of thumb but roasters vary. Check with your local roaster for what they recommend.

Too much liquid there means you need to grind finer, slow down what is coming out.

Change one thing at a time but bear in mind 18g isn't some golden number, it's a start point. Some beans like 19g, some 18.5g etc. As you get to know your kit you'll be able to dial in a bag within a shot or two, but I get at the start it's like you're wasting beans.

I'm assuming you've run your dummy shots/the temp is high enough.


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Moon Roast recommended 18g and the drink I had when there was prepped with 18g so figured that was a reasonable place to start.  Nothing was mentioned about resting beans so that's a new one on me.

With a finer grind I wasn't getting a "clean" pour, more of a very fine stream that was interrupted with large drips, hence going one point more course.

Temp setting is high 1 although I have to admit not taking a reading of the actual temp.


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## damo6925 (Jul 26, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Moon Roast recommended 18g and the drink I had when there was prepped with 18g so figured that was a reasonable place to start.  Nothing was mentioned about resting beans so that's a new one on me.
> With a finer grind I wasn't getting a "clean" pour, more of a very fine stream that was interrupted with large drips, hence going one point more course.
> Temp setting is high 1 although I have to admit not taking a reading of the actual temp.


So, you've got a bit of a conundrum here, you're getting too much liquid out but can't grind any finer because the flow is getting choked...

Beans usually need resting to allow them to degas and it does make a difference. So what had been said is correct I would rest them a little.

If you still have the same issue after 7 days of resting, there are some things you can do to adjust the flow to get your perfect amount out in the time...

You can look at how hard you are tamping. A heavier tamp compresses the coffee more and slows the flow down...

Secondly the more coffee you have on the basket, the more it will reduce the flow....

So rest your beans then try again. If not, as had been mentioned try changing the amount of coffee in the basket say 16g or 17g...but remember, 2:1 ratio so 17g would be 34, 16g 32... Etc

Reducing the amount in the basket should speed up the flow as there is less resistance.

Also 30 seconds is a guide also.... So if you can get 18g of liquid into 36g out in 26 seconds that's not necessarily a bad thing.... It's all trial and error!

The main thing is you are trying new things and I guess learning new things all the time so it will come and I'm sure others on here could help even more than I can!

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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Cheers fella. Appreciate your time!


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Moon Roast recommended 18g and the drink I had when there was prepped with 18g so figured that was a reasonable place to start.


 It definitely is, I mean don't take it as a hard and fast rule. Many roasters will print the 'instructions' on side of bag - 18g/28-32 seconds/36g like it's some mantra to be chanted but you need to play around, see what tastes good to you. Atm the Extract beans I'm using now are 19g at a 3:1 ratio over 36seconds for instance. My last roaster was 40g over 32 seconds using 18g.



Mouldy said:


> Nothing was mentioned about resting beans so that's a new one on me.


 Aah, well that's an absolute must, the beans just won't respond as they are supposed to most of the time. Some will, some need 3 weeks, even 4 weeks before they're optimum. Because I go to a new roaster every 2 weeks I usually ask them but apart from Square Mile 10 days has been fine really.



Mouldy said:


> With a finer grind I wasn't getting a "clean" pour, more of a very fine stream that was interrupted with large drips


 I'm no expert so maybe someone else will weigh in but that sounds like puck prep to me. Could be an inconsistent grind but I've never had a problem with the BE grinder, is the Touch the same one?



Mouldy said:


> Temp setting is high 1


 Not sure what that equates to or how it differs from a BE, maybe someone else can guide there. With the BE, if you run a few shots through, because of the way it heats the water, it gets hotter.


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

90g is a lot of coffee to extract in that amount of time and yet the flow being low. Does the flow rate change during the shot at all? It sounds like the puck could be breaking apart during the shot. If you take a look at the puck after the shot is done and you see holes or cracks this is probably what's happening.

Though as said above the beans need to rest longer. Some lighter roasted beans are only at their best over a month later.


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Right then fella's, lets leave the rest period for the minute. Taken on board for future reference but I am still struggling with the dosing.

The theory, (if I'm correct?) is that if I reduce grind size then there is more resistance for the water to pass through, so for a given time there will be less coffee in the cup?

T






his morning I made two coffees. I weighed out 18g of beans and dropped them in the hopper. Ground them at 12 and weighed the outcome. 18g. Brew set to 30s, pressed the button. Coffee started to pour at about 5s and I ended up with 90g of liquid in the cup.

So thought I, grind size needs to be reduced. I dropped it by two points to 10. Using exactly the same process as above, coffee started to pour at between 5-6 seconds and I ended up with 96g of liquid in the cup.

Puck from second try shown here for general observation!


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## damo6925 (Jul 26, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Right then fella's, lets leave the rest period for the minute. Taken on board for future reference but I am still struggling with the dosing.
> The theory, (if I'm correct?) is that if I reduce grind size then there is more resistance for the water to pass through, so for a given time there will be less coffee in the cup?
> T<img alt="20201128_112928.thumb.jpg.70189c01961c8a063feae254cfe5d751.jpg" data-fileid="48840" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2020_11/20201128_112928.thumb.jpg.70189c01961c8a063feae254cfe5d751.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">his morning I made two coffees. I weighed out 18g of beans and dropped them in the hopper. Ground them at 12 and weighed the outcome. 18g. Brew set to 30s, pressed the button. Coffee started to pour at about 5s and I ended up with 90g of liquid in the cup.
> So thought I, grind size needs to be reduced. I dropped it by two points to 10. Using exactly the same process as above, coffee started to pour at between 5-6 seconds and I ended up with 96g of liquid in the cup.
> ...


This is just bizarre... It shouldn't be possible. So the only variable that could have changed that could have given this result is your tamp pressure.

You were correct with the change down a grind size. So it should be going down not up! Is there any way you can video your process? Just so we can see how you do what you do and try to diagnose issues.

Why don't you go stupid and set it to grind size 5 which is really low and should choke it up. See what happens. Keep everything else exactly the same as much as you possibly can. The less things that change the better we can compare.

I feel like I'm missing something really obvious here but I just don't know what!

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## damo6925 (Jul 26, 2020)

The pucks you have posted pics of by the way, have they been sat in the portafilter a while before you knocked them out or were they fresh? The only observation I can make compared to mine is that they look slightly on the dry side... Not sure what that means though!

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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

So you seem to be thinking a lot about how long the beans take to grind? I'd ignore this for now and aim to grind 18g of beans however long that takes

With 18g of ground coffee aim for an extraction of 35-40g in around 25-35 seconds (I'm being vague because at the minute you seem to be running very fast at the moment! 70g out in that time is way too much)

Are you using a pressurized basket as that will affect how it looks, and I think your grind is too coarse but that's harder to spot in a pressurized basket.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Also rest period matters as very fresh coffee will create a lot of gas which can cause extraction issues, and creates more variability in what's going on in your puck. (I'm more interested in pictures of and descriptions of your drink than pics of the puck by the way)


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

Is it a possibility that you are way too coarse on the grind? It's hard to tell from the pics but your grind size looks to be a lot coarser than I used to have from my Smart Grinder Pro which is essentially the same grinder as the BT. The grind always had to be super fine on the SGP. I would try what is mentioned above and grind far finer.


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

By the way (maybe you know this) don't worry about the time it takes for the coffee to appear into the cup. There is a period of preinfusion where water is slowly fed into the puck before the full pressure kicks in.

If grinding finer doesn't sort your problem out you might want to post a video of your prep and pulling the shot.


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

OK, will try to answer questions as best I can.

Re. tamp pressure. Am I right to think that the harder I tamp the more "compaction" I have and therefore more resistance to the flow of water through the grind? I understand that there should be an ideal pressure but is the statement true?

Process at the moment is to put 18g of coffee into the PF, use the leveller and then tamp. I use as much pressure as required to get the top edge of the silver band on the supplied tamping tool to be level with the top edge of the PF, (which is reasonable but I'm not putting huge power into the process to achieve this). Leveller is set to the same depth as the razor tool.

That puck had probably been sat for a few minutes before I took a pic of it, not sure how long but now more than five.

Will reduce grind size tomorrow as you suggest.

Regarding grind time, I have tried to ignore this and get to the 18g, however I am having to grind for around 32s to get 18g. I understand that 70+g is way to much and am told I should be aiming for around 34g, (ish), in the cup. And here is the problem, I CAN NOT get that weight of liquid in the cup with a 30s brew! Regardless of how I tamp, grind, push or pull. I have reduced grind until the coffee drips from the PF, (albeit large drips), and I still get more than 34g in the cup and the coffee tastes sour/bitter.

At the moment I am trying to ignore the taste and just aim for 18g in 34g out kinda thing. And failing!

I'll take a picture of the liquid tomorrow and post here.


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## damo6925 (Jul 26, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> OK, will try to answer questions as best I can.
> Re. tamp pressure. Am I right to think that the harder I tamp the more "compaction" I have and therefore more resistance to the flow of water through the grind? I understand that there should be an ideal pressure but is the statement true?
> Process at the moment is to put 18g of coffee into the PF, use the leveller and then tamp. I use as much pressure as required to get the top edge of the silver band on the supplied tamping tool to be level with the top edge of the PF, (which is reasonable but I'm not putting huge power into the process to achieve this). Leveller is set to the same depth as the razor tool.
> That puck had probably been sat for a few minutes before I took a pic of it, not sure how long but now more than five.
> ...


Your statement is correct.

Just an observation, if you are putting 18g in the basket then using the razor tool (I don't bother) then removing some coffee because the tool is skimming some off, you will end up with less than 18g... That will have an impact on the water flowing through the puck and may be the reason things are going to quickly?

Also if you don't tamp very much to get the silver thing to line up with the portafilter, forget that. Again I don't bother following this mantra. On the next shot, do everything exactly the same but tamp as hard as you can. See what happens, just for the process of comparison. If your shot coming out pours significantly slower and you get closer to what you are after, perhaps here lies the problem.

This may explain why when you grind finer, you get more liquid, as you're not tamping as much or compacting the grounds as much as the courser grind so you're almost getting a false result. Again just a theory whilst we are troubleshooting, of course, this may not be the case but worth ruling out.

Remember only change one thing at a time. That way we get to gradually rule things out or rule things in as being the problem...

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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Base line I think you're grinding far too coarsely. (You're also very good at photographing pucks- I've never tried before it's hard work!) Grind finer until you're in the ball park of 18:36 ish (advice above is excellent) and report back! Change nothing else!


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

As Missy said, you're grinding far too coarsely. Go down to 3 or 4 and see what happens. If it's still too coarse, change the inner burr setting. I had to move my inner burr down to 3 (I think it was 3, maybe 4). The inner burr is inside the machine, not the dial on the side. You take the hopper off to access it. There's a video in the Sage sticky in the forum.

The trouble is by not resting the beans all this is academic, the beans won't behave normally or predictably. It's not optional unless the roaster says 'these are good to go after 2/3 days', which very few do.

Good point by Damo6925, are you knocking coffee out of the pf with the tool? So actually have less than 18g? Changing weight to 19g will slow the flow down but I'd grind much finer first.

Re: Tamping. Grind into a cup, give it a couple of swirls, decant into pf, give it a knock or two to settle grinds and tamp. Don't worry about leveller for now. When tamping push the head of the tamper with your first two fingers and thumb if possible, don't push down with the handle. On DavecUK's Youtube channel he demonstrates this technique. It's more likely to give an even tamp. An even tamp is key and easy to get wrong.

However, first order of the day is rest the beans, then grind much finer.


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

I must start by saying I really appreciate the help, thank you all for your time and input everyone. Also thanks for the photographic praise, it's all in the lighting!, (I have way to many hobbies!!)

I have noted the comments about resting the beans but they are the only beans I have at present.

OK, this morning I weighed 18g of beans and dropped them into the hopper. Grind size reduced to 4 from 10. (upper grind size is also at 4 but unchanged from the last few attempts). To empty the hopper took 34s and I had 18g of ground coffee in a container. This was placed into the PF and then the leveller used to level and compact the coffee to the same depth as the razor. I then tamped as hard as I could.

Coffee started to pour at about 6s and I ended up with 54g of liquid. OK thinks I, heading in the right direction!

I repeated the above process to get a second cup for my good lady wife, (I'm a good egg eh?  ). However the grind took longer to empty the hopper, (36s), and the pour stalled; I ended up with less than 10g of liquid. On removing the PF I could clearly see that the coffee had been in contact with the shower screen and again I am baffled!

I am starting to think that the scales I am using are not accurate, however I don't understand why the level of coffee was higher in the PF second time around given the leveller was used on both occasions and is a set depth. Also the tamp weight was pretty consistent I would suggest, although I have no way of actually measuring this. I will caveat by saying that I don't remove any coffee from the PF after weighing.

I also don't understand why the second pour stalled. Grind was not changed from previous and the brew time was also the same. I guess it could be that there seemed to be more ground coffee in the second pour? I will have to monitor this more closely tomorrow and I'll also use a different set of scales.

Not sure if I'm going forward or backward at present. One thing I do know is I am getting very frustrated!!


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## damo6925 (Jul 26, 2020)

Frustration is all part of the fun 

It will be joy when you finally get it right!

From what you have said there you are absolutely going in the right direction. Really you are.

Something however must have changed. For you to out the same in and get different out, somewhere in the process something must have changed.

I would absolutely question your scales, if it took an extra 2 seconds to grind, this could have been because you had more beans (even though your scales may have said it was the same as your previous attempt) and that would absolutely impact on your flow rate and ultimately the amount you get in the cup at the end. I certainly would be looking at them...

In the meantime, when you get chance try exactly the same again and see what happens. Same amount in, same scales, same process of tamp etc and same brewing time. See what you get...

Keep at it you are definitely making progress!

Sent from my PCT-L29 using Tapatalk


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

So cup one, arriving in the ballpark good news! Shot two on the same parameters but choking. This seems to be a theme.

1) which scales are you using?

2) are you steaming the scales? (I know I know I'm sure it's just me who gets the scales wet constantly and finds them inaccurate)

3) did it look like a similar amount of coffee?

It may be a temperature thing going on. I don't know enough about your machine to know in detail how it holds temperature.

It may be a grind issue, in that the first grind was nearly there as a mix of the grind before and that grind, but that the second was too fine as the full amount of coffee was at the smaller size (if your grinder holds onto 3g of coffee each time say then 3g is from the last grind on every shot) that said 54g to choking is a big difference.

What does choking mean in your context? We often use the same words to describe stuff but because it's words not visual we are shorthand describing different things. What do you see and hear and what happens in detail?


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> OK, this morning I weighed 18g of beans and dropped them into the hopper. Grind size reduced to 4 from 10. (upper grind size is also at 4 but unchanged from the last few attempts). To empty the hopper took 34s and I had 18g of ground coffee in a container.
> 
> I will caveat by saying that I don't remove any coffee from the PF after weighing.


 Are you weighing what you get out of the grinder? Just because you put 18g in doesn't mean you get 18g out.

When you you say 'upper grind size', do you mean the inner burr? If so drop this to 3. Still sounds like you're grinding too coarsely.



Mouldy said:


> This was placed into the PF and then the leveller used to level and compact the coffee to the same depth as the razor.


 Are you knocking grounds out of pf in using the leveller?



Mouldy said:


> However the grind took longer to empty the hopper, (36s), and the pour stalled; I ended up with less than 10g of liquid. On removing the PF I could clearly see that the coffee had been in contact with the shower screen and again I am baffled!
> 
> I am starting to think that the scales I am using are not accurate, however I don't understand why the level of coffee was higher in the PF second time around
> 
> I also don't understand why the second pour stalled. Grind was not changed from previous and the brew time was also the same.


 As discussed, the beans will behave variably and unpredictably if they are not rested. That's why it's hard to plot progress and draw conclusions at this stage. Using unrested beans, results will vary wildly and so it's hard to say 'what is a result of what' if if you get what I mean.

One thing to note is when making a second cup straight after he first, make sure the basket is bone dry before you add grounds to it.

EDIT: just read Missy's post, are you making sure the machine is up to temp first? Running dummy shots? If not the first and second shots will be different temps, that will make a huge difference. Getting the water to the right temp was the breakthrough for me.


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Yes siree. Weighing beans, then weighing ground coffee. Both look to be the same although I am doubting the scales I'm using and will use a different set tomorrow.

No, I'm not removing or losing any coffee after using the leveller.

I do understand your meaning about rest. (Does that include me? I think I need a nap!)

I do dry the PF by wiping it out with kitchen towel and a tea towel.

Scales are Glass Top Digital Scales | James Martin Kitchenware | Wahl UK

No water or steam near them.

Yes, it did look a similar amount of coffee.

I run the grinder until I hear a speed difference, (ie it is no longer under load), and there is no more coffee dropping into the dish.

I use the word choking to describe very little coffee coming from the PF. The small drops were very dark and they were very small drops that were not there all the time. So basically not a continuous stream of coffee and not even a continuous stream of droplets. I guess there was not enough pressure to force the water through the puck?

Temp. No, I didn't run any dummy shots.

Think I might revert to tea..............😁


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Scales are Glass Top Digital Scales | James Martin Kitchenware | Wahl UK


 Get something that weighs in 0.1g graduations like these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Electric-Back-Lit-Features-Stainless-Ingredients/dp/B01DGLFVS0/ref=sr_1_4?crid=SPF6DSD8O2CW&dchild=1&keywords=0.1g+scales&qid=1606672468&sprefix=0.1g+s%2Caps%2C829&sr=8-4


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## ImthatGuy (Dec 4, 2015)

MarkHB said:


> Get something that weighs in 0.1g graduations like these:
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Electric-Back-Lit-Features-Stainless-Ingredients/dp/B01DGLFVS0/ref=sr_1_4?crid=SPF6DSD8O2CW&dchild=1&keywords=0.1g+scales&qid=1606672468&sprefix=0.1g+s%2Caps%2C829&sr=8-4


 Concur - I started using very good kitchen scales and struggled, so got these (asme product, different name) and they've been very helpful


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Scales that read 0.1g arriving today. However as we do a lot of baking in this house I have more than one set of 1g scales. Cross referenced what I have been using with a set I use for bread making and both gave the same reading. So I am not so sure now that the scales are the issue.

Roaster has confirmed five to seven days rest for the beans; five days from roasting will be tomorrow.

Increased grind size to 6 from 4. Pour was, (in my opinion!), better and started after 6s. 53g of coffee in the cup. So I figured if the grind appeared to be about right, maybe I'll reduce the brew time, so I did by 2s.

Same process, (except for the brew time), produced 61g of coffee. So an increase of liquid after decreasing the brew time! Non of this makes sense to me to be honest.

As I say, 0.1g scales arriving some time today and five days rest will be as of tomorrow so I'll have another attempt then.

Christ, all I wanted was a nice "toy" and a decent coffee!! At the moment it looks like I've ended up with a good looking kitchen decoration which is a complete pita to use. 🙄


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## damo6925 (Jul 26, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Scales that read 0.1g arriving today. However as we do a lot of baking in this house I have more than one set of 1g scales. Cross referenced what I have been using with a set I use for bread making and both gave the same reading. So I am not so sure now that the scales are the issue.
> Roaster has confirmed five to seven days rest for the beans; five days from roasting will be tomorrow.
> Increased grind size to 6 from 4. Pour was, (in my opinion!), better and started after 6s. 53g of coffee in the cup. So I figured if the grind appeared to be about right, maybe I'll reduce the brew time, so I did by 2s.
> Same process, (except for the brew time), produced 61g of coffee. So an increase of liquid after decreasing the brew time! Non of this makes sense to me to be honest.
> ...


If you're reducing the brew time but getting more it screams basket prep is different. So you've either got less coffee in the basket or you are tamping less firmly without realising. Or you're getting channelling which again is all down to prep.

Wait a day or 2 get your new scales and then give it another go. By then the beans will have been rested better too...

The positive news is you've gone from 90 odd g of coffee out to 50's so you are definitely getting somewhere...just fine tuning now and you'll nail it

Sent from my PCT-L29 using Tapatalk


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Increased grind size to 6 from 4.


 Why increase? You're getting too much liquid through. Where will the machine choke, ie: no water comes through? Find that point and work back.

Hard to say about rest of it, most likely prep if temp is right and the same.



Mouldy said:


> Christ, all I wanted was a nice "toy" and a decent coffee!! At the moment it looks like I've ended up with a good looking kitchen decoration which is a complete pita to use


 Understandable but it's never fast. It took me over 2 months before I was getting a consistent, nice drink. Part of it is Sage's fault, it's not 'day one, off you go' like their advertising suggests. There's a learning curve like any other machine.


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> So I am not so sure now that the scales are the issue.


 They are likely to be part of the problem. You want to be accurate within 0.2g. With your current scales you could be out by 1g or possibly more depending how sensitive and accurate the scales are.

Also I read that you were tamping as hard as you could. That isn't really advisable. I would tamp pretty lightly actually. But just make sure you're being very consistent. You may also want to upgrade your tamper from the stock one. I've found Sage tampers to be too small for the basket which could lead to the water finding its way down around the edges.

You want to make sure you're distributing the grinds around the basket before you tamp. A lot of people do this by tapping on the sides of the portafilter or tapping it on the counter. I personally put my hand over the top of the basket and shake pretty hard and then pretty gently, making sure the grinds are being evenly distributed around all the edges of the basket. Whatever you choose to do it's very important to make sure the grinds are evenly distributed before you tamp or you will end up with channelling and inconsistent results.

It can't be said enough that consistency is king when it comes to making espresso. You need to find a good consistent routine that works for your machine and grinder. There's no doubt it can be very difficult to make espresso you are happy with when first starting out, but I think most here would say that the rewards are worth it in the end!


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

MarkHB said:


> Also I read that you were tamping as hard as you could. That isn't really advisable. I would tamp pretty lightly actually. But just make sure you're being very consistent. You may also want to upgrade your tamper from the stock one.


 Good point. There was a big difference when I upgraded to the Motta tamper/ An essential £20 purchase for me.

@Mouldy You're tamping that hard to slow the flow. I did this too but it's not the way. Grind much finer. As I said before, find the choke point and work back.



MarkHB said:


> You want to make sure you're distributing the grinds around the basket before you tamp. A lot of people do this by tapping on the sides of the portafilter or tapping it on the counter.


 Another good point. Tap twice, tamp, go. Tapping settles grounds, tamp with the same firm pressure each time. Swirl grounds in whatever cup you ground into to break up clumps.


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

All points taken on board and appreciated.

Increased the grind to 6 from 4 because it had choked. 

Honestly I thought I was being consistent in the prep. I do have a fairly analytical mind from flying and cars and understand that if you are trying to reach a certain setup you change one thing at a time.

I had noticed that the supplied tamp was very slightly smaller than the PF, so Motta. 53mm or 54mm? The leveller I have is 53mm and this seems to have a little play within the PF.

So are we saying that I set the grinder to 1, use 18g of coffee and only use the leveller? (which I have set to the same depth as the supplied razor.) And do not tamp? I guess if we take my Schwarzenegger like physic out of the equation then that would make the prep a little more consistent!

I will also attempt to bring a little tap dance into the prep routine.

I have noticed that Moon Roast do a little in house training for a smallish fee. May look into that.......


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> and only use the leveller? (which I have set to the same depth as the supplied razor.) And do not tamp?


 No, definitely tamp. I'm saying the leveller at this stage might not be essential. Do it if you're not wasting any beans doing it (this depends on how full the pf is).

Motta 53mm is what you want. The 54m doesn't fit.

What is your inner burr set to?


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Thanks for the info.

Inner burr set to 4

Edited to add I see some of these after market tamps are calibrated. Worth a punt?

Edited again:-






Now I am really confused! The level aspect I get and always have, but the pressure? Doesn't seem to matter according to this?


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Further to the above.

As an experiment I've just pulled five "empty" shots, i.e. no coffee in the PF. Brew time =30s. Interesting results all in g:-

218.7

236

214.8

233.4

230.6

Is it normal to see this kind of variation?


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## damo6925 (Jul 26, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Further to the above.
> As an experiment I've just pulled five "empty" shots, i.e. no coffee in the PF. Brew time =30s. Interesting results all in g:-
> 218.7
> 236
> ...


I would suggest that shouldn't be the case. I'll try it out on my barista touch for you later and see what I come out with. Out of interest, are you still using your old scales for this experiment? Not saying they are wrong but I'd take the results with a pinch of salt until you can rule that out...

Sent from my PCT-L29 using Tapatalk


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Original scales only read to nearest g, so no, these weights were taken with the new scales.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Is it normal to see this kind of variation?


 I'd say so. Measure out 3g in a cup, it's a few drops, 15g/17g water in a cup barely covers the bottom, it's so small I had to add it in with a teaspoon to see how much water is actually was. Did you dry out the cup between each test? If not that's some of the variance there.

Also, bear in mind you are looking at weight in the cup. You're stopping the water coming through at 36g coffee. How much comes out of the machine isn't really a factor if you see what I mean.

Calibrated tools - I haven't used them but no-one seems to be into them from what I've read. The Mottas are the 'go-to' tools, especially to start with. You might want to look at palm tampers but they are much more expensive (unless you get one from China on AliExpress or the like).


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

But we're talking a max variation of nearly 15g in the above experiment and I'm being told that 0.1g of ground coffee can make a difference to the finished product.

So if 0.1g of coffee can make a difference, surely 15g, (ml) of water can too?

Might be clutching at straws a little but I know from baking that liquid content is important. I'm also guessing that if I want to get a consistent amount of water from a machine then I need to spend a lot more money, (shouldn't have to but seems to be the world we live in now!).

Thanks for the info on tools. I'm trying to avoid China but finding it very difficult! I was disappointed to see the Sage was made in China.

Be interesting to see the results that damo comes up with later.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

You set the amount of water going through, not the machine. You don't press the button and leave it, you're doing it by weight in the cup. Pressing the button and say 500 g water comes through won't matter if you're stopping it at 36g in cup, 45g in cup, whatever you decide is good for you. Check in the manual that comes with the machine about pulling shots manually. If you get to 15 seconds and you get to your target weight - let's say that's 36g, then that's your pour time. Now you look at slowing that down, how do you get to 36g in say 28 seconds. You might find 34 seconds is better for you. So it's about the grind/prep rather than pushing the button and letting it run it's course.

Re: tools - I have a leveller, bottomless pf and a dosing funnel all from China and they're good quality, particularly the leveller and funnel if that's your concern. Check the forum for the links if you want same.


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Not disagreeing fella. However in this instance I was checking the accuracy of the machine and wanted to see if, for a given time, I would get the same dose of water through and as it happens, I don't! Does this matter? Well perhaps not but it doesn't seem right is all. 

Not saying that everything that comes out of China is carp, I know for a fact that it isn't. What I'm trying to do is bring my hard earned a little closer to home. And without diving deep into a political debate or conspiracy theories, I don't like the fact that China has caused a world of pain around the globe and are probably going to be the only country to come out the other side smelling of roses! I know, it's a crusade I'm never going to win and to be honest I'm not trying too hard, just trying where I can. 😀

Anyway.....coffee. 😁

What makes a good/bad tamp tool? Why would buying an aftermarket tool make "that" much of a difference? I guess what I'm asking is what am I looking for in a tool?


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Does this matter? Well perhaps not but it doesn't seem right is all.


 Mine varies a bit, may be due to water in the pipes on the second one, more heat, speed of thermojet (or is it coil?, I can't remember what it uses), not quite sure. But as I'm stopping it by weight in the cup it's not a factor.

China...er yeah OK, I'll leave that one! You do you 



Mouldy said:


> What makes a good/bad tamp tool? Why would buying an aftermarket tool make "that" much of a difference?


 The one that comes with the machine is serviceable but doesn't compare to something like the Motta. The weight and metal head is the main thing, it just sits better and is more forgiving. The heft means that technique inaccuracies (uneven distribution being the most common) are less likely to effect the puck. For a beginner it makes a big difference I think. It did for me and that particular brand/tamper has a very good reputation on the forum, it's seen as a 'no brainer' upgrade.

It's not a magic bullet of course, but if you use it you'll see how much better it is than a light plastic one. If for some reason you didn't like it, you'd be able to sell it on the forum, they go regularly.


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Cool beans. Appreciate it! 😁


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## damo6925 (Jul 26, 2020)

So my weights for an empty pf look like this (I've rounded them up or down to the nearest g as it isn't necessary to be exact for the purposes of this)

1.193
2. 209
3. 217
4. 205
5. 207

The first was the lowest I would suggest as a result of there being little to no water in the pipes. After that they are all relatively consistent but different. Not sure how that helps you but there you go...

I didn't take the pf out each time and dry it so that could explain the slight difference each time and when I did remove it at the end, there was a fair bit of water just sat in it that I had to pour out...with that in mind I reckon if I dismissed the first shot and then cleaned it each and every time, it would be pretty much bang on.

In terms of a tamping tool, I don't use the stock one. I bought myself a distributor and leveller in one that is heavy and can be set to the right depth. Some like them some don't. I like it because I can press as hard as I like, I get exactly the same depth/pressure every time (the only thing that changes is the amount of coffee in the basket) but I weigh this so that's fine. It's always level too...

Pics attached.

Each to their own but works for me.

P.s it's probably from China.































Sent from my PCT-L29 using Tapatalk


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Grabbed one of these:-

Motta 8140/B Stainless Steel Coffee Tamper with Black Wooden Handle, 53 mm: Amazon.co.uk: Kitchen & Home

Says Italian but as you say, probably out of China!

In other news, I've just tried another brew.

18g of coffee at grind size 3, (top burr still at four). To get this amount of coffee takes 32s of grind time.

Brew time 28s. Pour started after 7s and I ended up with the magic number in the cup........34g. Whoop Whoop!

Used the leveller but didn't tamp as hard as I have been, (You Tube vid aside!).

Coffee tasted close to what I had when at the roasters but still not exactly the same. Am I chasing a shadow? Difference in taste was at the roasters the coffee had a sort of caramel finish whereas mine still has a bitter note.

Regarding the amount of water. I too put it through an empty PF, maybe I should have taken the PF off completely. Might do that out of interest.


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## damo6925 (Jul 26, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Grabbed one of these:-
> Motta 8140/B Stainless Steel Coffee Tamper with Black Wooden Handle, 53 mm: Amazon.co.uk: Kitchen & Home
> Says Italian but as you say, probably out of China!
> In other news, I've just tried another brew.
> ...


Progess made. You are definitely getting there... Now just fine tune.

If yours is bitter it's over extracted. So the water is in contact with the grounds for too long and is over extracting the flavours from them.

This is kind of where you start fine tuning, but it's out of my league so I'll leave it for one of the others to assist...

If it were me I'd probably grind a little more course which will speed your shot up, but put more coffee in the pf to counter that and slow it down again. By being more course, my theory if I'm not mistaken is that the water won't extract as much flavour as it passes through, won't have as much contact time with the individual grounds and as a result you'll get a less extracted shot? I could be wrong though, so here's where I start to learn on the back of your thread... Every day is a school day!

Nice one, you've made it to your original aim which was to get your ratio right...

Sent from my PCT-L29 using Tapatalk


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Would increasing grind back to 4 and decreasing brew time to 26s achieve the same thing? General question to the coffee universe!


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Coffee tasted close to what I had when at the roasters but still not exactly the same. Am I chasing a shadow? Difference in taste was at the roasters the coffee had a sort of caramel finish whereas mine still has a bitter note.


 It's good to see you're making progress!

As to the above it could be a number of things. It could be your memory of what it tasted like. It could be the ratio of milk to espresso you are using. But I would say most likely it's that you just need to fine tune your shot.

There are a number of things that you could adjust to try to get rid of the bitterness. As stated above you could change your grind setting. I personally wouldn't do this on your grinder if there is only a small hint of bitterness in your coffee. The reason being that you'll have to purge through and waste some beans every time you change your grind setting. I would do everything else the same and change the ratio slightly. I would aim for 30g of coffee out (don't worry about the time it takes to extract as long as you're in the same ballpark). This is also what James Hoffmann recommends to do (he knows a little about coffee). If that doesn't work you could change the ratio again or you could turn the temperature down a degree or 2 if your machine is able to do that.

You do want to make sure though that you know the difference between sour and bitter. If what you're getting is sour espresso the above will only make it worse. You would actually go for a higher ratio and higher temperature in that case.

With all that said, I wouldn't be too worried about getting rid of the bitterness at this point if you are still able to enjoy the coffee. I would work on repeatable and consistent results.

Here's a helpful video series from the man himself, James Hoffmann:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxz0FjZMVOl3MuAzK5l3gjakoOGrmK8fP


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

To be able repeat what I did earlier would, as you say, be my main aim at present.

Thanks for the links, I'll take a look.


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

......And I cant! I'm not sure at this point if it's me, the machine or perhaps a bit of both but I am quite close to launching the machine into a low orbit!

Made two brews this morning and both were un-drinkable. Well by humans anyway, the drain had a drink!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mouldy said:


> ......And I cant! I'm not sure at this point if it's me, the machine or perhaps a bit of both but I am quite close to launching the machine into a low orbit!
> 
> Made two brews this morning and both were un-drinkable. Well by humans anyway, the drain had a drink!


 If you want some more help, then go back to basics and give us some info

dose in, dose out , time

why were they undrinakble , top strong , or weak , bitter or sour .


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Purged grinder from last use for around 5s.

Dose in, same as before:18g on the nose for both drinks.

Grind, as before, all unchanged: top bur at 4 and grind size 3. To get 18g of grind I have to grind for around 32-33s.

PF tapped as I have been instructed to do and used leveller and then new tamp.

Brew time as before 28s.

Pour starts at between 6-7s.

Coffee in the cup 38g in one and 43g in the other so this IS different as I got 34g before

Milk steamed until 65C with froth setting at 4, same as before

Coffee in cup was bitter, and also sour, I mean really bitter. Neither were drinkable as they were that bad.

Roastery local to me runs a two hour course whereby I can take the machine with me. I'm hoping to do that ASAP but due to Covid they are not running one until the New Year. If I am tamping wrongly then I guess they should be able to tell me but all the other process' I am doing are the same, I am being extremely careful to replicate everything.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What is the coffee , how far past roast .

what do you mean by tamping wrongly . Concentrate on it being flat and level , this should be pretty easy to diagnose pressure doesn't really impact at all. Beyond pushing enough to get the puck to stay in to doesn't very Little.

use your fingers on the base to check its level before


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Coffee in the cup 38g in one and 43g in the other so this IS different as I got 34g before


 Sorry to hear you're still struggling! Don't go launching it off to the moon just yet!

The time it takes to extract coffee can vary quite radically from day to day, especially the closer you are to the roast date. See the following video to get an idea of just how radical that change can be: 




Don't stop your shot based on the time, stop it based on the yield. So if you liked the coffee flavour at a 34g yield then stop it there regardless of the time. For example if I liked the coffee flavour with a 34g yield at 28secs, then I would rather stop the machine at 34g in 25secs than 42g in 28secs.

Also how long do you wait for the machine to heat up? Do you run hot water through the portafilter before you pull your shot? The water temperature can affect the flavour of the coffee in a big way. I'm not sure if the Touch works in the same way as the Duo Temp Pro, but when I had a DTP, I had to be particularly strict with letting it warm up or I would end up with horrible coffee.


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Cheers Mark! 

Honestly? I really didn't think, (or want to be!), "sucked" into the world of coffee. I just wanted a smart machine to make a decent espresso. I watched a lot of videos on You Tube, (Not from Sage!), and the Touch seemed to keep coming up trumps. Even watched videos that compared Sage machines with others of similar price.

So having watched them I sort of knew that the machine would need to be dialled in to suit a particular bean. In my naivety I expected to set a grind size and using the timer on the machine I would end up with a given weight. For the brew, I would again use the timer to get a given weight of coffee. Neither of these are proving to be true as using the timers generally produce different weights so now I am having to continually weigh ground coffee and liquid.

I am being told here that I need to turn the machine on thirty minutes or more before I want coffee, and yet if I turn the machine on early, when I come back to it it has turned off automatically.

I don't frequent coffee shops like Costa or the like but when I have been in to these kind of places I have never seen weighing, it is all done on times.

Water temp is at the "ideal" setting, it could go warmer or cooler but I have no idea what the temps are without sticking a Thermopen into the water stream, (which I may do as an experiment to see if the machine shows consistent results from shot to shot as it definitely isn't consistent with the amount of water it doses over a set brew time with an empty PF)

The YT video I posted above states that temp weight is not that important, however I am trying to be consistent with that weight. I'm told that the coffee being level is important, ( and I understand the reasons why), so to make sure it is I get a leveller to be then told that the supplied tamp is ok, but an aftermarket one will be more consistent. So another purchase!

All that being said I am trying to keep the process the same but am getting wildly inconsistent results, from coffee that is drinkable, (but not right), to coffee that has ended up hitting the drain. To date I've shoved half a kilo of beans into the machine and only once have I got close to what was sampled at the roastary, (which was delicious!).

Pulled another two shots today with nothing changed from yesterday. Again using a set time I got different end results with different weights in the cup and a coffee that was better than yesterday but still not pleasant to drink.

Sorry for the ramble peeps but I really haven't bought what I "thought" I was buying and I am sorely disappointed that I didn't find this forum sooner to ask a lot of questions before parting with my hard earned!

Hey ho! Onward.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

When I worked in a Costa we weighed every 2 hours and checked volume out and adjusted the grind size accordingly, you wouldn't see if it you were ordering as we didn't do it when we were busy. The dosers were adjusted regularly too (and everything noted down in a book!) Speciality shops will weigh on every drink. There's more margin for error with a commodity coffee soaked doused in milk.


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

I drank a lot of bad coffee when I got my first machine! If you stick with it you'll eventually start to understand what's going wrong. Bring your machine along to the course and they should be able to help you out!


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Sorry peeps, life got in the way a bit!

I have persevered but am getting nowhere. I can make a brew worse, but can not replicate what I had at the roastary. More to the point, I can not replicate one coffee to the next! The instructions say that for an ideal pour, coffee should start to come from the portafilter between seven and twelve seconds. Regardless of how fine I make the grind, the longest time I've seen before the start of the pour is six seconds.

Regarding Missy's comment, I take on board what you say. However how many coffees would be made over a period of two hours? Quite a few I'd wager! Point being, once set, you would not expect to see a change within the next time period of two hours. I'm seeing change from one coffee to the next.

Time is a constant. Therefore for a given time I would expect the machine to replicate provided water from one pour to the next. It doesn't. Even the grind varies within a given time by up to 0.8g.

Maybe I'm expecting to much, however the machine retails for £1k. I use tools for a living, and if I spend this amount on a tool I expect it to deliver the promise. For me, this machine really doesn't!

To be honest I need someone who really knows what they are doing to use it, (i.e. the roastary peeps), but at present that is impossible and maybe so for some time to come.

I have raised a ticket with Sage so I'll see what reply I get.

Again, apologies for my absence and thanks to all for your input. 😀


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## Indylou (Aug 20, 2021)

@Mouldy did you ever get to the bottom of this? 
I have had my BT for a few weeks now and feel like I am having many of your issues. I don't want to give up as hubby didn't want me spending this much on a coffee machine and I need to prove I was right! 🤦‍♀️


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Indylou said:


> @Mouldy did you ever get to the bottom of this?
> I have had my BT for a few weeks now and feel like I am having many of your issues. I don't want to give up as hubby didn't want me spending this much on a coffee machine and I need to prove I was right! 🤦‍♀️


 Hiya. Short answer is yes and no!

Long answer is I've got a point where the coffee I make is drinkable, but I am damn sure it isn't what it should be and I am still getting inconsistencies when making two coffees back to back. The machine has been sent out to be looked at by Coffee Classics and they reported that the burr was blunt so changed it. I then had them visit and at that point they flashed the software because I had reported that the machine would sometimes not turn on. Apparently this is a known problem!

I am going on a short course at Moon Roast coffee at Alsford on Friday morning and they are happy for me to take the machine with me. Be interesting to hear their thoughts on how the machine works.

All in all I don't feel that the machine is worth £1k of anyone's money and the marketing from Sage is rather disingenuous.


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## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

I've got a friend with the Barista Touch and he really struggles with getting consistency from it especially with back to back shots


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

I'm not as thick as I thought I was then!

It will be interesting to see what the Roasters think tomorrow.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mouldy said:


> All in all I don't feel that the machine is worth £1k of anyone's money and the marketing from Sage is rather disingenuous.


 Their marketing is excellent, but it sets a very high user expectation for certain machines.


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Agreed.

However to be fair I looked at a lot of "private" YT videos before purchase. Although these peeps had no axe to grind, I know think that it was a case of "look at me and my expensive coffee machine". I may have been a bit gullible in that respect. 😧


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## soymilk (Aug 22, 2021)

I am enjoying mine.

Today's coffee: 19g of beans. 35ml of extraction. Started coming out at 10 sec. with plenty of crema. I use the scale to stop brewing when it hits desired weight. (35g)

The minimum milk volume for the provided pitcher was too much for me so I bought a smaller pitcher from Amazon. The diameter is smaller so with the milk at the min height the volume of milk used is smaller. It doesn't sit on the temp sensor properly due to smaller bottom so I have to gauge the temp by hand but I still let the machine do the foaming.

Here is my latte/cappuccino from this morning.


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## nicosmit (Sep 28, 2021)

@Mouldy Did the course help you solve most of your issues?


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

Sorry for the delay in reply.

Not really. All it did was confirm my suspicions that the machine is inconsistent! Had to go back to using a scale which in my honest opinion defeats the object of the timers built in.

Hey ho, lesson learned. Don't buy a Sage.......


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## deZoo (Sep 21, 2021)

Mouldy said:


> Sorry for the delay in reply.
> 
> Not really. All it did was confirm my suspicions that the machine is inconsistent! Had to go back to using a scale which in my honest opinion defeats the object of the timers built in.
> 
> Hey ho, lesson learned. Don't buy a Sage.......


 I have reached the same conclusion re. my Oracle Touch. Wildly inconsistent results from a machine that claims to automate everything (and the price reflects this). I'm looking for a refund because if I wanted a straightforward espresso machine I'd have bought something very different. Sage sent me a replacement OT but only after trying to talk me into accepting the Dynamic Duo plus cash in place of my OT because they were fairly confident if they sent me another OT it would be the same. It is. Before they sent it I was clear that if it performed the same I wanted a full refund. Radio silence from them at the minute.


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## Mouldy (Nov 17, 2020)

I should have done the same to be honest. I also feel, (as I have said before), that the Sage marketing is not accurate, you can not make coffee with this machine as they suggest you can.

Be interesting to hear if you do get a full refund. Where did you purchase from?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Mouldy The current crop of youtube adverts for the little Barista pro are fantastic, almost made me want to buy one, even though I know all about them. Anyone getting into their first real machine, wouldn't have a chance and would totally believe the adverts.


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## deZoo (Sep 21, 2021)

Mouldy said:


> I should have done the same to be honest. I also feel, (as I have said before), that the Sage marketing is not accurate, you can not make coffee with this machine as they suggest you can.
> 
> Be interesting to hear if you do get a full refund. Where did you purchase from?


 I purchased from Redber roasters, they were one of the only places that had a black one at the time. Support is direct with Sage Support.


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