# Why are sage so expensive compared to the breville?



## coffeechap

Been looking around for the smart grinder and other related products and noticed a massive difference in the price of these products in other countries, it kinda brings into question just how good these might be when clearly they are not the £1200 or £200 as they are over here.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Breville-BCG800XL-Coffee-Bean-Espresso-Conical-Burr-Smart-Grinder-BRAND-NEW-/271300682483?pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item3f2ac7e2f3

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Breville-BES900XL-Dual-Boiler-Espresso-Machine-BRAND-NEW/330971561120?_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D18775%26meid%3D2627480745079320307%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D8532%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D111207671458%26

Under half the price of here!!!!!!!!!!


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## kikapu

Have to be careful when comparing UK to US prices as sometimes have a sales tax added afterwards (not sure this applies to these cases though)

It does make you question the components used and longevity of the product compared to similar priced machines here in the UK But then again the UK version may have higher spec components just in the same shell!!??

But the main reason I guess for the price difference is Heston needs to get paid!!!


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## coffeechap

Actually I don't agree about Heston as he is all over the Australian website, which to me would say that the product is the same, yet the price there is a whole heap less than here as well, me thinks the sage boys are making a healthy profit on this product, I accept the " white glove" treatment is a bit extra but not £500 - £600, are we getting sucked into the hype here folks???????


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## kikapu

Well it is an Australian designed product and Sage™ is a trademark of Breville Group Limited Australia so maybe part of the reason for their lower prices there but in general as am sure everyone is aware on these forums that we usually pay extra in the UK for the same products


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## Mrboots2u

I don't think it's all down to Heston,as coffee chap says , but I bet there will be a different royalty rate for machines sold here with his name on (where he is more well known ) , thank Aussie land , where less well know . They may just be paying him to use the name on the site there ,with copied crap advert txt ,rather than getting him not to do promos etc over here .


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## kikapu

Also I didnt realise that the Breville that sells the product is a different Breville to the one that already sells kettles etc here already! Maybe I am just slow but thats why its sold under the Sage brand in the UK!


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## coffeechap

Yes sage have to sell under a different name here, but I have checked the specs on both the Aussie and the uk machine they are identical!! So nearly double the price for us! The same boes for the American version, identical apart from the voltage, I am missing something here!

Incidently products don't cost more here, take for example the expobar dual boiler that is made in Spain and costs more in Spain. All of these are made in China and thus will all cost exactly the same to the distributor, so are we just mugs or are sage just very clever!!!


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## MWJB

It's quite "normal" to end up paying the same in £ as the US do in $ once VAT, shipping & duty are factored in. It's not just Sage/Breville...it's the same for drip cones, Chemexes. I buy electronics parts either from the US or from here...it costs the same at the end of the day, only nominal savings unless you want to break the law.

Note the e-bay ad for the Smart grinder is £112 + £53 postage...plus VAT & duty, hey presto, you're up to £200 in the blink of an eye.

List price for the Breville dual boiler is US$1500...though most are selling it cheaper.


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## kikapu

I was referring to 'stuff' in general, usually anything electrical though!

New PS4 is £349 which works out $558 (US) but its list price is $399 (US)


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## coffeechap

I accept the list price, but retailers are selling for $1000 yet over here they are going at the suggested retail price, Which would suggest that there are big margins in these machines...

The delivery costs should be compared to mainland uk that is taking a machine for the American market having it delivered there from china and then delivering it to here, the machines are identical yet we are paying a ridiculous price comparatively.

I still can't believe that this machine is as good as an expo or similar, but no-one is doing a side by side comparison, I have offered but no response, and probably won't get one now!


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## Fevmeister

Have seen these ebay prices before in my searches. it is really putting me off buying one, i would feel ripped off if i did!

its the same with nike and abercrombie clothes, in america they retail at 30-40% of the cost over here


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## 4085

No one has really grasped this though. Whether you be in America, France, Japan or the UK, you import a machine from a Manufacturer who has them made in China. Presumably, other than transportation, the base cost to each country ought to be the same. Any internal taxes are only paid on sales. So, the position ought to be that a machine in America has the same approximate base cost as a machine in the UK. So, why are they not?

Well, some have suggested taxes and transport costs, but they are red herrings.

More likely, a target audience has been selected and the retailers chosen. The price has been set at what they think the market will pay. They have then gone down the Apple route of trying to influence the sales price WITHIN the UK as they cannot have any influence outside of the UK. Factor in White Gloves, and by the way, two points here: firstly, if you do not want White Gloves do you get a reduction in price, as Sage have already said it is factored into the cost, and secondly, referring back to a previous thread I started, I suggested that only 'idiots' would buy this machine. Idiots based on the fact that anyone who has ever come on here and asked for advice for a first machine has always been told to grab a Classic costing less than £200, not spend £1200 on a machine that should be considered an upgrade once you have learned some basic skill craft. If you need to be told how to work it, then perhaps it should not be your first machine, hence my idiot label......be it cruel or kind.

So, if the base cost to each country is about the same (the sole importer for the US might negotiate a larger volume discount than the UK based on projected sales), then why is the end cost so much higher? No one has answered this. Does anyone really believe that the base cost in America plus say an estimated Gross Profit of 35%, is £500 cheaper than the UK....I cannot see it somehow.


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## Dylan

It is not one individual thing, but a combination of just about everything mentioned, and that goes for just about any product.

Its a new product from Sage, so they do have associated costs. Any new market means a new supply stream, new repair centres, new marketing drive. The price of the end product has to offset this investment. This is true of any market, but the bigger the market the greater amount of sales, allowing product cost to be set lower.

Then you obviously have to add VAT, our at-sale tax is higher than most other countries. Things like new games consoles more of less reflect our higher taxes as they have a large market in every country, and as such a similar base price.

And then of course as dfk mentions the market is assessed for what they can afford and what competition there is and the ultimate profit margin is decided.

It is very likely that the final profit margin is a lot higher here in the UK as the branding is aimed at the wealthy home owner, where in america (I assume) it is aimed at a less wealthy/bigger market. Sage/Breville will place a fairly safe bet that due to the different brand name the average consumer will be none the wiser.

I do remember dave mentioning that this was a 'different' model with small updates (like at-home de-scale) and that was another reason for price difference?


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## Mrboots2u

I know people are interested in the grinder ( as new £200 decent grinders are short on the ground ) , but is anyone gonna stick their head above the wall and say if they are interested in the DB machine ?


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## Dylan

Just checking out models here and you are indeed looking at the wrong model coffeechap.

The one in the ebay link you provide is the BES900, the Sage machine is the BES920

Here is a link to the BES920 aus prices

Which works out to about £873, still £300 difference but not quite as significant as £5-600.

I cant find the BES920 for sale in the US

Edit: So to use my earlier comparison with games consoles;

Aus Xbox One: 549aus dollars, or about £320

UK Xbox One: £429

Thats a percentage difference of about 25%.

The same sums with the Sage DB give a 27% difference in price.

We live in the UK, we pay more for everything.


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## coffeechap

Ok why does the expo cost less here than in Spain where it is made?


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## Dylan

coffeechap said:


> Ok why does the expo cost less here than in Spain where it is made?


Because sausages


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## The Systemic Kid

coffeechap said:


> Ok why does the expo cost less here than in Spain where it is made?


The result of EU medicine and the end of cheap money.


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## coffeechap

It is fact that we pay more because the sellers can get away with it, retailers capitalise on that, we are the mugs for accepting that " we just pay more for things here"


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## bignorry

Im sure if breville thought they could get £1600 they would try and justify it at that price. I personally think that it should sit in the medium to high bean to cup price band and not higher where they are aiming.


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## Dylan

coffeechap said:


> It is fact that we pay more because the sellers can get away with it, sage are capitalising on that as a lot of retailers do, we are the mugs for accepting that " we just pay more for things here"


It's really not as bluntly simple as that. Saying "we live in the UK, we pay more for everything" is given the understanding that our taxes are higher, our society richer, our minimum wage higher, or a hundred other things that might influence price.


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## Spazbarista

You are both right.

There are fixed costs in UK that are higher than in US. Sales tax in US varies state by state, its a massive 20% here. But, all other things accounted for, the UK is a market where companies think they can charge more. Consumer electronics are a prime example of this.


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## cold war kid

*************************


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## cold war kid

It's going to leave a bad taste in the mouth for everybody in the UK but if this £200 grinder turns out to be every bit as good as a mignon for less money then there's clearly something to be appreciated.


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## 4085

cold war, I think what people are saying is that Sage have fixed the price in the UK so that no matter where you buy it, you pay the same price. That is not illegal


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## Dylan

dfk41 said:


> cold war, I think what people are saying is that Sage have fixed the price in the UK so that no matter where you buy it, you pay the same price. That is not illegal


Are you sure about that?

I'm pretty sure you are allowed to incentivise sellers to sell at a certain price, but you cannot control their retail price.

I know how price fixing applies to companies colluding, but not how it applies to a single company and their own product.

Basically if you are stating "That is not illegal" as fact I'm just wondering if you are completely sure of that, and if so how?


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## cold war kid

It was a few years ago.

Suppliers got away with it by saying they where out of stock and playing hardball with companies that refused to play the game but couldn't outright refuse to supply for this reason.

Things may have changed with EU law getting involved. As I said, I no longer take an interest, I just wouldn't want one of the most giving of forum members to come a cropper with a throwaway line that Sage are reading.


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## 4085

My understanding is, that a group of companies cannot get together and set a price which is unfair, but, if an importer offers you a contract to sell their goods and they tell you they want you to sell at their RRP, if you disagree then you will not get the contract or if you discount the goods the same applies. Apple demonstrate this well


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## coffeechap

But our taxes are not the highest, we are not the richest, are standard of living is not the best nor are a hundred other things in this country, that influence price!


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## Dylan

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/ca98_guidelines/oft401.pdf



> Directly or indirectly fixing prices
> 
> 3.4 An agreement whose object is directly or indirectly to fix prices, or
> 
> the resale prices of any product or service, almost invariably infringes
> 
> Article 81 and/or the Chapter I prohibition. The OFT considers that
> 
> such price-fixing agreements, by their very nature, restrict
> 
> competition to an appreciable extent.


Just been reading a few articles and it does appear to be against the rules to ask retailers to fix a price.

It is not against the rules however to have a sole distributer who will use your suggested price.


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## cold war kid

I don't think John Lewis are a sole retailer, are they?


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## Dylan

coffeechap said:


> But our taxes are not the highest, we are not the richest, are standard of living is not the best nor are a hundred other things in this country, that influence price!


Individually maybe, but in the examples given (US/AU) we do have higher taxes/wages/standard of living.


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## Dylan

cold war kid said:


> I don't think John Lewis are a sole retailer, are they?


They certainly tend to sell things at or close to RRP, which I'm sure is favourable with manufacturers.


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## MrShades

dfk41 said:


> My understanding is, that a group of companies cannot get together and set a price which is unfair, but, if an importer offers you a contract to sell their goods and they tell you they want you to sell at their RRP, if you disagree then you will not get the contract or if you discount the goods the same applies. Apple demonstrate this well


^^^ what he said









Whilst price fixing across brands / companies is illegal (if all retailers/manufacturers of grinders got together and agreed that grinders would only be sold at £1000 irrespective of brand / quality then that would be illegal) - normal business contracts that stipulate terms and conditions (such as selling at a certain price) are NOT illegal - and are common business practice.

This isn't illegal at all - as the retailer isn't being forced to sign the contract and you're not being forced to buy the products - you're just being forced to buy THAT product from retailers that have signed the contract at THAT fixed price.... which is far from illegal.

Think Apple, etc. - they've been doing it for years.


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## Dylan

But you are perfectly capable of buying an apple product from a not authorised reseller, and they sell it for what they like. Price is controlled with small profit margins for retailers, not by a contract binding them to a certain price.

"authorised" and "preferred" retailers may well get preferential treatment for sticking to a fixed price, but I think if this was proven to be happening it would be an issue


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## MWJB

coffeechap said:


> Ok why does the expo cost less here than in Spain where it is made?


Relatively speaking the US pays more for Expobar/Euro machines.

Texans often pay more than other states...I just checked a couple of prices: Gaggia Classic US$399, Rancilio Silva US$670...anyone feel any happier?

I'm not sure why Sage/Breville are being singled out, nor why it's even an issue. No one's being mugged in an alleyway, relieved of £1200, sent home with an espresso machine & a white glove job they didn't ask for.

If Sage have ballsed up on the pricing, people will vote with their feet.

Comparing to other markets is just too complex...why not start from scratch...review the features on the Sage machine & find the nearest competitor?

We can all sit here and stamp our feet, bemoaning the fact that we'd like to pay less for everything (or that we wouldn't buy it in the first place and we think it's stupid, but even if we were going to buy one it costs too much, so there







), but last time I checked businesses weren't obliged to bankrupt themselves fitting in with non-customer's "back of a *** packet" maths excercises & perceptions of profit projections. Buy one, dislike it, shout the house down...We'll assume Sage are grown ups & prepared to succeed/fail by their own choices.

I thought folks would be happy after Glenn's efforts giving the machine a fair, unbiased review...to help people decide if it was worth the outlay.


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## coffeechap

D_Evans said:


> Just checking out models here and you are indeed looking at the wrong model coffeechap.
> 
> The one in the ebay link you provide is the BES900, the Sage machine is the BES920
> 
> Here is a link to the BES920 aus prices
> 
> Which works out to about £873, still £300 difference but not quite as significant as £5-600.
> 
> I cant find the BES920 for sale in the US
> 
> Edit: So to use my earlier comparison with games consoles;
> 
> Aus Xbox One: 549aus dollars, or about £320
> 
> UK Xbox One: £429
> 
> Thats a percentage difference of about 25%.
> 
> The same sums with the Sage DB give a 27% difference in price.
> 
> We live in the UK, we pay more for everything.


I stand corrected, I would also like to say that although the grinder is more expensive than elsewhere it does seem an accomplished little grinder that will put the cat among the pigeons at its price point.


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## 4085

I have the grinder. I bought it. It is a snip at £200. Will it last long term?.....no idea/do not really care. Lots of nice features, consistent grind although I cannot get my mind around why the same bean, same dose through the Mignon and the Sage produces such vastly different looking and tasting shots! It is good value. but, I cannot think the same of the Dual Boiler. it is another machine in a congested market. Only time will tell but I suspect the John Lewis/Amazon market it is aimed at will all think it produces a fantastic cuppa, to the same standards at least as they get in the big chains, so, they are bound to be happy.


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## MrShades

D_Evans said:


> But you are perfectly capable of buying an apple product from a not authorised reseller, and they sell it for what they like. Price is controlled with small profit margins for retailers, not by a contract binding them to a certain price.
> 
> "authorised" and "preferred" retailers may well get preferential treatment for sticking to a fixed price, but I think if this was proven to be happening it would be an issue


That's where the whole "grey import" issue comes from... non authorised dealers importing products via other than the regular channels, etc. If you can source a Sage Smart Grinder from anyone other than the sole UK importer/distributor and dont have to sign a contract saying that you will not sell it in the UK and will only sell at a certain price, then you can charge what you want for it. Something tells me that you'd find that very difficult to do.

Anyway - what Sage are doing is allowed and perfectly legal. Period.


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## Charliej

I'm going to make a point now that some people seem to be overlooking so far.

I'll use Australia as an example as thats the country outside the Uk I have lived and spent most time in, but in some ways it applies to anywhere. When goods are priced at a certain amount of $AU the only time you can turn round and say " but thats half the price we pay" is if you are buying the item with the £. In Australia the minimum wage is a higher amount of $AU than it is in £ here but the people earning the money in Australia are buying their goods with the $AU and a lot of stuff costs way more in $ than we pay in £ for example last time I was there the average chocolate bar say a dairy milk or a mars was around $2.50 a 600ml plastic bottle of coke will cost you more bought cold from the fridge than warm off the shelf and is around $3 generally speaking the prices of both new and 2nd hand cars is more over there as is insurance and the cost of fuel. My parents pay more in property taxes than they would do for an equivalent home here.

Having had a look around the older model of the Breville DB is $1500 at David Jones which is the nearest equivalent of John Lewis over there so more than the £1200 here

The big thing is when looking at the costs of things in another country is too look at how much time it takes to earn the money to pay for something so if you take the cost of something available pretty much all over the world a McDonalds Big Mac meal which we all know isn't a great item of food but briefly fills a spot in your stomach you will tend to find that the amount of time you have to work to afford one at the average wage in any given country is roughly the same e.g in Australia the meal is closer to $10 and here around £5 but the time taken to earn that amount of money is the same.

Every country wherever it is will pay more for some items than others again in Australia Italian made espresso making equipment prices are off the charts compared to here and the Breville DB sits very nicely in that gap there, ironically that gap in the market is the same one as here but the price break here is lower and thats why I think the machine misses the gap in the UK market.


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## MrShades

^^^ Dont get it... sorry.

Your Breviile DB example : $1500 AUS isn't more than £1200 here... it's about £880 - which would be a reasonable price for it here.

Your Big Mac Meal - $10AUS is about £5.80 - so again, not very different at all. However - average salaries in Australia are MUCH higher than in the UK (you only have to watch one episode of "Relocate Down Under" or whatever it's called to realise that!)

Italian coffee machines (certainly the ones that I've seen online) are about the same price as here, or less, in Aus. (La Marzocco GS/3 - about $6545 in Aus (£3840) or £4K+ here... similar on Izzo Alex, grinders, etc.).

I think we both agree that we're being somewhat ripped off by Sage when it comes to the Dual Boiler. ;-)


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## MWJB

MrShades said:


> I think we both agree that we're being somewhat ripped off by Sage when it comes to the Dual Boiler. ;-)


How are you being ripped off? You're being forced to buy one? You could always just not.


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## MrShades

MWJB said:


> How are you being ripped off? You're being forced to buy one? You could always just not.


LOL - I didn't mean that, as I know we all have the option to buy (or not to buy) and it doesnt interest me in the slightest.

What would have been more accurate is "...that we're being charged more for the DB in the UK than we would be in other countries - however you measure it!"


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## Charliej

MrShades said:


> ^^^ Dont get it... sorry.
> 
> Your Breviile DB example : $1500 AUS isn't more than £1200 here... it's about £880 - which would be a reasonable price for it here.
> 
> Your Big Mac Meal - $10AUS is about £5.80 - so again, not very different at all. However - average salaries in Australia are MUCH higher than in the UK (you only have to watch one episode of "Relocate Down Under" or whatever it's called to realise that!)
> 
> Italian coffee machines (certainly the ones that I've seen online) are about the same price as here, or less, in Aus. (La Marzocco GS/3 - about $6545 in Aus (£3840) or £4K+ here... similar on Izzo Alex, grinders, etc.).
> 
> I think we both agree that we're being somewhat ripped off by Sage when it comes to the Dual Boiler. ;-)


The point you are entirely missing is that you can't compare prices in that way i.e. the $AU directly to the £ as Aussies don;t get paid or pay in £ they use $AU. *THE ONLY TIME YOU CAN MAKE A DIRECT PRICE COMPARISON i.e. THAT$AU 1500 IS £880.18 IS IF YOU PURCHASED ONE WHILST OVER THERE ON HOLIDAY TO BRING BACK HERE.* otherwise it is a totally invalid and false figure. At the price in Australia it occupies a gap in the market between the cheaper hx machines such as the Fracino ones here and the more expensive Italian made machines it's all down to what $1 AU will purchase in Australia vs what £1 will purchase here so in other words that $1500 AU price on the older model is the same as if it were priced at £1500 here.If you reread my post you will discover that I took higher average salaries into account and along with that comes way higher prices on branded stuff like trainers and jeans, I'll give you an example from a good few years ago now 1990 in fact which was my 1st trip to Australia I took a pair of LA Gear basketball boots I had recently bought for £30 or so with me only to discover that shoes like that were around $350 there for the identical pair.

Pricing is why the Aussie coffee mafia got so upset about the L1 as it came in under their prices for the Strega et al as the business model there for imported goods includes a huge margin on price as the import taxes have been heavily reduced these days down from a 70% tax on imported luxury items at one point but the price hasn't fallen by the same margin so selling say an R58 there, the distributor makes a large margin and then the reseller has to make there bit too so hence the higher prices and the high cost of living in most of Australia.


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## MWJB

The lower spec BES 900 has an RRP of $1500 in the US, currency converter puts this at £944, add VAT = £1133...so extra features, shipping, Heston's exorbitant fee, duty & white gloves = £67. I think the Americans should be complaining....


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## Mrboots2u

I'm still not buying one , even if the white gloves In question were Michael Jackson's . Shamone.....


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## coffeechap

What if he delivered it


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## coffeechap

MWJB said:


> The lower spec BES 900 has an RRP of $1500 in the US, currency converter puts this at £944, add VAT = £1133...so extra features, shipping, Heston's exorbitant fee, duty & white gloves = £67. I think the Americans should be complaining....


If you go back to my post you will see it is pretty much on sale for $1000 so not a lot for them to be upset about really.


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## MWJB

coffeechap said:


> If you go back to my post you will see it is pretty much on sale for $1000 so not a lot for them to be upset about really.


Didn't include shipping, local taxes & is a slightly different machine. I have seen the BES900 offered for sale, new at £1000...but I suspect that excludes shipping & VAT.

I'm not saying I agree with Sage's pricing, I personally have absolutely no interest in the product, but what we do have is choices. I have looked at other products that were "overpriced" in my opinion...but if they are unique & have features otherwise not available (either within the same price range, or at all), then you have the choice to buy something similar without those features...or stump up the cash. It depends on how much the seller values the product's unique qualities.

Expobar Dual Levas go for $1800-$2200 new in the US, so £1200-1500...*plus shipping & VAT* to the UK, for a little perspective.


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## coffeechap

Then it represents exceptional value in the US then


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## MrShades

Charliej said:


> The point you are entirely missing is that you can't compare prices in that way i.e. the $AU directly to the £ as Aussies don;t get paid or pay in £ they use $AU. *THE ONLY TIME YOU CAN MAKE A DIRECT PRICE COMPARISON i.e. THAT$AU 1500 IS £880.18 IS IF YOU PURCHASED ONE WHILST OVER THERE ON HOLIDAY TO BRING BACK HERE.* otherwise it is a totally invalid and false figure.


I don't agree at all, and it's not invalid or false.

Look here: http://www.theexpathub.com/comparing-the-cost-of-living-in-australia-and-the-uk/3885/

Take the average salary for the UK and Aus, and deduct the one bed flat cost and utility costs (jnc broadband). An average Brit is left with a disposable income of £823 a month. An average Aussie is left with £1352.

So - for a Brit now paying £1199 for a Sage Dual Boiler, it's going to take quite a bit more than his month's disposable income. For an Aussie, paying £880 for a Breville Dual Boiler, he's got cash to spare from his month's income (£472) for a fair few beers, food, a good night at the more expensive cinema, etc...

I'll leave it at that - but I'm still REALLY interested to see how you think a $1500AUS Breville DB costs more than a £1200 Sage one here...


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## SimonB

I think it's at the top end of its price (it's basically RRP isn't it?) but doesn't that include installation and instruction and there's a cost associated with that no?


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## big dan

I think that the pricing is all wrong for this machine. I understand they have had to rebrand and set up service centres and the such but as a previous poster pointed out it will be idiots that by this!

I was in John Lewis looking at coffee machines and right next to the Delonghi Icona's at about £180 was the Sage DB at £1200, it just stood out like a sore thumb, there was no scale building up to that uber expensive machine.

The way i see it thereare 3 classes of machines:

- SBDU at the under £300 bracket which includes all the Delonghi's etc right up to the Gaggia Classic,

-Then there are the more premium machines still aimed at kitchens but using better components, such as the Silvia or the Oscar,

-Finally we have the prosumer machines that are essentially miniature versions of commercial machines with commercial components but in a smaller shell.

IMHO the Sage is trying to best the prosumer machines with all the bells and whistles but is still a machine that fits into that second category. It looks like a kicthecn appliance, it is metal but just a skin around a plastic shell as far as i can tell and uses a lot of plastic components inside rather than copper. If they had priced this sub £1000 it would have been a killer but as it stands for £100 less you can get an Expobar Brewtus which is a dual boiler with PID control and has a good history and is easily serviceable!

As for pricing i looked at Apple. I found a Macbook that is listed for £1249 in England and $1499 in the USA (plus tax it came to $1636) The price converted to sterling including the tax was about £1100 so in general products are cheaper in the states but only by a £100 or so (based on a £1000 purchase). Now the issue is that the retail price of the Breville DB is $1499 but most places sell it at $1199 now so even including tax this equates to around £900 which is £300 cheaper.

I hope Sage take note and review there prices as someone who loves coffee and spends some time researching will probably want to buy one of the prosumer E61 machines so the only market i can see buying this is the guy with too much money who asks the assistant whats the best coffee machine they do and they point to the Sage as the most expensive!

Glen i would also love to see your final comments in the review thread as price quibble aside it does look like quite an interesting machine.


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## Dylan

Dan, the Breville DB from america is the previous model, it doesnt look like new model (BES920) is for sale there yet.


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## big dan

Very true but it seems that the UK version only has a few changes and I don't believe it warrants the hefty price tag.

As a side note I noticed that the machine weighs around 15kg (similar to the silvia) whereas the expobar dual level weighs around 26kg. 2 double boiler machines with an 11kg weight difference, that says a lot to me about the components used!


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## coffeechap

The components in the prosumer units will be much more durable


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## Charliej

Well yes but a lot of the weight for the prosumer machines will also be in the stainless steel body itself, but lets ask a car question would anyone turn down a TVR or a Noble or even a Lotus Elise just because it doesn't have an all metal body?

I think we are in general being more than a little hostile and unfair to a machine that none of us apart from Glenn have had any real hands on time with (anyone recall how we all felt about the Aussie bashing of the L1 ? it would be a shame if we went down that same route). The earlier machines in Australia after a few teething difficulties seems to have been well received and have a decent reputation, however, over there it does actually occupy the market segment we all think it should i.e. somewhere between the Cherub/Heavenly and the Brewtus just that the prices over there are higher in the espresso machine market.

big dan I'm interested to know what you think they have used plastic to replace copper parts on in the machine.

I have no axe to grind either way I just think that we should give the machine a fair go after all the people from sage have come to us and been pretty upfront about stuff. I too think that the price that has been set is a little unrealistic and would like to see an option to buy one without the "white gloves" service just to see how much that reduced the cost by.


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## Mrboots2u

Charlie , to be fair I think some of the disappointment arrives from the price people expected it to come over at ( based on USA ) and what it did come over at . It's reliability, in the USA, has been from anecdotal reports inconsistent , just look at home barista and coffee geek. I hope they have addressed this . For example Looking at SCG reviews of the smart grinder tho nearly 12 months ago , they said it needed shimming to do espresso and that they thought Breville would do this going forward as standard . Yes I know it will now come pre shimmed here as a result of Glenn review but it kind of disturbs me that the advice from the USA either wasn't taken or listened too or it was corner cutting that prevented it . The example there makes me wonder how much they have learnt from other territories and whether the perceived reliability issues have been addressed.

The guys at sage, have dolled out some review machines, good on them, on the surface they seem like upfront guys, time will tell. White gloves , Heston B , it's not aimed at me , I suspect it's not aimed at your charlie

When all said and done , we all thought it would be cheaper.,...


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## coffeechap

Charliej said:


> big dan I'm interested to know what you think they have used plastic to replace copper parts on in the machine.
> 
> .


Copper pipes are replaced with plastic pipes


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## coffeechap

I agree Charlie I don't want this to get into a kill it before it is tested but the similarity of the l1 in Australia is completely different, then the people slagging it off were concerned that it hit the price point of one of that forums big sponsors bezzera, here the sage is not in competition with the £1200 machines as I think quite rightly as you pointed out it sits somewhere in the middle but tis price point doesn't!


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## Dylan

coffeechap said:


> I agree Charlie I don't want this to get into a kill it before it is tested but the similarity of the l1 in Australia is completely different, then the people slagging it off were concerned that it hit the price point of one of that forums big sponsors bezzera, here the sage is not in competition with the £1200 machines as I think quite rightly as you pointed out it sits somewhere in the middle but tis price point doesn't!


If it produces coffee comparable to the other £1200 machines, why shouldn't it be competition for them?


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## coffeechap

Big if though


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## coffeechap

Well the answer is simple lets get a straight side by side comparison of that and a rotary expo perfect


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## ronsil

Thats a great idea CC but how can we get that set up?

Would settle this discussion once & for all


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## Charliej

Mrboots2u said:


> Heston B , it's not aimed at me , I suspect it's not aimed at your charlie


Don't you go pointing any loaded Heston B's at me, by the way would that be Heston Boots? I hear you can do some quite extraordinary things to the most mundane of ingredients in the kitchen.

To me if I didn't know that machine was a rebadged breville DB having Hestons name on it would put me off, I don't need 3 Michelin stars to tell me snail porridge is just a vile idea and shouldn't exist, when a cook decides to call his development kitchen a lab thats a warning sign to me. I do have one thought about why he puts his name to this, based on his crazy "Sounds of The Sea" dish maybe he calls his coffee "Sounds of The Espresso Bar" and uses the DB to provide a soundtrack for his capsule based coffee lol.

Regarding the US versions of it as the colonials use their current hungry 110v power the boiler elements etc will have to be different, plus I have seen more appallingly unsafe electrical wiring in the USA than anywhere else in the Western world, whereas we will get the Aussie specced versions as they use 240v and as they were developed there not in the US I guess more r&d was done on 240v systems.

Dave I guess in referring to the L1 incident I meant that people other than the vested interests just seemed to join in the witch hunt and wound it up even further.

At the end of the day it's all down to how well it makes a cup of coffee because in theory if something is made to the appropriate ISO quality and quality control standards there is no reason that the product should fail prematurely where ever it's made, if we generalise about poor standards we would never ever buy anything that uses electricity and is made in Italy, just look at the appalling wiring and electrical equipment that Italian cars and motorcycles were "renowned" for until relatively recently.

Dave I may have the one they are sending me, here by Sunday so you could take a look at it then. In fact if anyone wants to come and take a look at it while I have it here you're more than welcome.


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## forzajuve

At the end of the day this machine is aimed at the Cheshire set. People with more money than sense that will fork out over the odds if its the most expensive machine in John Lewis and a celebrity endorses it. This is backed up with the white glove approach.

No one who is serious or even does some basic research into espresso will touch them with a barge pole. Unless it was priced in the £800 region, which will never happen.


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## coffeechap

ronsil said:


> Thats a great idea CC but how can we get that set up?
> 
> Would settle this discussion once & for all


I totally agree and believe me if it is as good as an expo I will absolutely be singing its praises and it will be worth every penny of the asking price, Gary might be a good independent in all of this. Sage could send him the dual boiler (if Gary is willing of course) and as I said before I have the expo on my bench but probably am tainted at the moment


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## garydyke1

You cant really compare the Expo versus Sage though. They are two completely differing approaches. The Expo uses tried and trusted industry standard parts which are easy to source, other than the PID , there isnt anything fancy about it. The sage on the other hand has a lot more electronic wizardary up its sleeve & clearly designed to be more of a kitchen showpiece.

The sage might be able to match the Expo shot for shot in a side by side test , but, you know the Expo can do this all day long , day after day for year after year. If the Sage is as bombproof as the Expo then fair dos, its a good option.


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## garydyke1

coffeechap said:


> I totally agree and believe me if it is as good as an expo I will absolutely be singing its praises and it will be worth every penny of the asking price, Gary might be a good independent in all of this. Sage could send him the dual boiler (if Gary is willing of course) and as I said before I have the expo on my bench but probably am tainted at the moment


Would be more than happy to, however this wont happen.

I have nothing to gain by suggesting either is a better machine but am fully aware of the Expo's capabilities!


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## coffeechap

garydyke1 said:


> Would be more than happy to, however this wont happen.
> 
> I have nothing to gain by suggesting either is a better machine but am fully aware of the Expo's capabilities!


Does that mean if you got sent one for appraisal you would do it or you won't?


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## Charliej

garydyke1 said:


> Would be more than happy to, however this wont happen.
> 
> I have nothing to gain by suggesting either is a better machine but am fully aware of the Expo's capabilities!


No reason it can't happen Gary just do what I did and drop Dave Gubbin a pm or I can let you have the woman handling the review machines email


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## ronsil

garydyke1 said:


> You cant really compare the Expo versus Sage though. They are two completely differing approaches..


That's true but at £1200 you are in La Spaziale Mini territory. I wonder how that face to face comparison would pan out.


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## Charliej

ronsil said:


> That's true but at £1200 you are in La Spaziale Mini territory. I wonder how that face to face comparison would pan out.


Well Ron depending on how long I have the machine for I'm not that far away from you and could maybe bring the machine over to yours.


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## coffeechap

garydyke1 said:


> You cant really compare the Expo versus Sage though. They are two completely differing approaches. The Expo uses tried and trusted industry standard parts which are easy to source, other than the PID , there isnt anything fancy about it. The sage on the other hand has a lot more electronic wizardary up its sleeve & clearly designed to be more of a kitchen showpiece.
> 
> The sage might be able to match the Expo shot for shot in a side by side test , but, you know the Expo can do this all day long , day after day for year after year. If the Sage is as bombproof as the Expo then fair dos, its a good option.


But that's like saying you can't compare the L1 to the Gs3 or Alex duetto! Comparisons that have been made heavily! The comparison here sits at the price point, hence why the machine I suggest to do the side by side is the expo, I have no loyalty either way and as I said before if it matches the expo on shot and build quality then I will literally print this thread and eat it.


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## garydyke1

coffeechap said:


> Does that mean if you got sent one for appraisal you would do it or you won't?


Of course I would do , id be honest

Would need a heads up on when it actually needs to take place , time is precious right now (as you know Dave)


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## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> No reason it can't happen Gary just do what I did and drop Dave Gubbin a pm or I can let you have the woman handling the review machines email


I dont really have the time to go begging for a loan machine having to justify why etc. Doesnt mean I wouldnt do the side by side however.

Its not like I'm unhappy with my Expo and am looking for a replacement


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## ronsil

Now that would be a great idea. However its not quite a fair comparison as mine is the Vivaldi S1 ver II. Fully plumbed in with all the bells & whistles including electronic pre-infusion & group head temp control etc. You're talking circa £1600/£1700 at full retail. If the Sage is boasting these at £1200 then that would make for a great comparison with the price advantage on the Sage side

Would be happy to do this any suitable weekend & any other Northern folk who would like to come would be very welcome.


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## 4085

Charlie, have you got a date for the machine turning up? TBH, I will be very surprised if they actually send you one as I do not see from their perspective, what you can add to Glenn's review. I hope I am wrong but what they wanted was publicity on the forum, and they achieved that.


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## 4085

This has been chewed over and discussed, but here is a thought. Would anyone who has come up the Classic/Sylvia route who really wanted to upgrade and had £1200 consider one of these? I do not think so. As stated, they are not aimed at the serious coffee enthusiast but at the person who thinks coffee is easy and has the $ to buy one. Be interesting to see in 6 months time, how many second hand ones are up on Ebay and how much they fetch.


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## Spazbarista

garydyke1 said:


> You cant really compare the Expo versus Sage though. They are two completely differing approaches. The Expo uses tried and trusted industry standard parts which are easy to source, other than the PID , there isnt anything fancy about it. The sage on the other hand has a lot more electronic wizardary up its sleeve & clearly designed to be more of a kitchen showpiece.
> 
> The sage might be able to match the Expo shot for shot in a side by side test , but, you know the Expo can do this all day long , day after day for year after year. If the Sage is as bombproof as the Expo then fair dos, its a good option.


The machines can be compared, but Gary is quite correct in that you can't compare the aspects of reliability and longevity because the Sage looks to be both relatively new and relatively untested.

That would be a massive minus for me, given the price. If it breaks irreparably after 2 years and a month you are left with a pile of junk. The same could rarely be said of the Expo.

However, given the crazy discussion about the grinder, and how one poster considers 2 years of use to be worth £200 there are clearly some for whom this isn't an issue. Personally, assuming one cup per day for two years, I would be livid if the grinder added 28p per cup on top of the beans and the machine cost.

Imagine if you had Sage grinder AND machine and they both karked after 2 years. £2 per cup just for machinery.....ridiculous when compared to other machinery.


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## coffeechap

garydyke1 said:


> I dont really have the time to go begging for a loan machine having to justify why etc. Doesnt mean I wouldnt do the side by side however.
> 
> Its not like I'm unhappy with my Expo and am looking for a replacement


Hence why I suggested you gary you can be completely neutral because you are content


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## big dan

Charliej - I was watching a video of someone replacing the opv valve from a plastic one to a metal one and when looking inside there was a lot of plastic on show which would account for the weight difference.

I would love to see a side by side comparison with an expo!

On the whole car analogy I think that is a little different as the material the car is made from can be lighter and stronger as this serves a function of the car (lighter means faster etc) and as long as it still looks good that's fine. With a coffee machine the steel not only looks good but is very durable. IMHO the sage doesn't look as good as a machine made of steel.

For me coffee is like art and I want my "dream" machine to look like a work of art. Some of the e61 prosumers do look beautiful whereas the same priced sage just looks like a soul-less kitchen appliance to me.

However as others have if this was priced in the middle of the pack it would be a serious contender! Look at the oscar, it's not as common in the uk but it's a hulking plastic (on the outside) monster that for around £500 will make excellent espresso and is highly regarded as a good next step from a cheaper SBDU.


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## Charliej

dfk41 said:


> Charlie, have you got a date for the machine turning up? TBH, I will be very surprised if they actually send you one as I do not see from their perspective, what you can add to Glenn's review. I hope I am wrong but what they wanted was publicity on the forum, and they achieved that.


 No date for the machines arrival as yet but I have had email confirmation that they will be sending me one to play with. What I can add as well as Glenn's review is the perspective of someone looking to upgrade from a Classic or Sylvia, but without the experience Glenn has of coffee and machines. i.e. How easy is it to get sorted and making good coffee with straight out of the box to a relative newbie in comparison to Glenn. After all that must be some of their target market considering John Lewis also sell Silvias and Classics.

I just think we should all bide our time and see what happens with these machines rather than automatically writing them off as a clueless rich persons toy because of the price and where they are sold, I don't see anyone condemning Classics and Silvias just because John Lewis sell them. If these machines help to get more people into decent coffee then more power to them, at the moment they are new, but every other machine was at some point as well.


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## coffeechap

Charlie how can you be so ferocious over bean roasts yet so benign and compromising on this issue? The sage guys came on here, a coffee enthusiasts site, with a lot of experienced people, pumping their products on the first post, so let's compare it to something people on here are more akin to using rather than their target audience.


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## 4085

Charlie, you are sitting on the fence mate! I do not believe for two seconds, that even after having played with one and reviewed one, you would shell out your hard earned when you see what you can buy for exactly the same buck!

What I meant, but perhaps should not say, was from their perspective, the review Glen did ticked all the boxes, so why risk that? That is with no disrepect aimed at Glenn, but if you know anything of the concept of risk management in the commercial sense, you will follow me.


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## big dan

I didn't realise they sold classics and Silvia's at john Lewis as I didn't see any when I was at their blue water store. That's why the Sage looked so out of place!

Looking forward to your comments charliej on the machine. To be fair to sage although American users have reported some durability issues the customer service has been rated as excellent and I see no reason that this shouldn't continue over here. Also a number of users of the breville db have preferred it over the e61 machines due it's ease of use! We shall have to wait and see!


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## Charliej

coffeechap said:


> Charlie how can you be so ferocious over bean roasts yet so benign and compromising on this issue? The sage guys came on here, a coffee enthusiasts site, with a lot of experienced people, pumping their products on the first post, so let's compare it to something people on here are more akin to using rather than their target audience.


I can be so "ferocious" over bean roasts when there seems to be an unsaid implication that if it isn't light it isn't right and that there is something wrong with you if you don't like coffee that way, it kind of smacks of wine snobbery which I also have a problem with. If something tastes good to me then to me it is good, the same applies to Gary I wouldn't use the term defective or say underdone to describe his tastes in coffee I just simply say that I don't particularly like my coffee that way.

I don't see myself as benign and compromising on the issue of the Sge DB I just think I'm being fair minded and open to new things.

DFK at the moment having not had a play with a Sage yet I can't honestly answer the question of where I would spend £1200 if someone gave it to me and said you can only use this to buy an espresso machine if this had arisen a few weeks ago then I would have gone for a Brewtus straight off, but I always like to research my purchases thoroughly and so could no rule out a Sage if it ticked all the boxes for me. Yes I do believe they have got the price point totally wrong for the UK market, because as I have previously said In Australia in price terms it does sit where we all think it should be due the higher cost of machines over there, I think that if it came in around the £800 mark it would be a very serious contender and a bit of a no brainer. I would also guess that as there would seem to be no haggling over price and discounts available on it that is also off putting to some people, I know I enjoy that part of buying anything new.

Yes I am unfortunately very aware of risk management concepts in both a practical and commercial sense.


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## coffeechap

garydyke1 said:


> Of course I would do , id be honest
> 
> Would need a heads up on when it actually needs to take place , time is precious right now (as you know Dave)


Yes yes received over and out. Apologies dude


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## SimonB

dfk41 said:


> This has been chewed over and discussed, but here is a thought. Would anyone who has come up the Classic/Sylvia route who really wanted to upgrade and had £1200 consider one of these? I do not think so. As stated, they are not aimed at the serious coffee enthusiast but at the person who thinks coffee is easy and has the $ to buy one. Be interesting to see in 6 months time, how many second hand ones are up on Ebay and how much they fetch.


Have to disagree because I did consider it no matter how briefly (at the time I was buying it wasn't available in the UK and the price considerably lower AFAIK), at the time I thought it looked like it had some nice features.

I'm not so certain it's as grim as you make it out to be, it's not a toy and it should at least perform like a machine approaching the £1k range no? If I remember correctly they're also providing installation and instruction (I think?) and in a way that's more useful than just dumping a great machine on someone who doesn't know what they're doing.


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## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> I can be so "ferocious" over bean roasts when there seems to be an unsaid implication that* if it isn't light it isn't right and that there is something wrong with you if you don't like coffee that way*, it kind of smacks of wine snobbery which I also have a problem with. If something tastes good to me then to me it is good, the same applies to Gary I wouldn't use the term defective or say underdone to describe his tastes in coffee I just simply say that I don't particularly like my coffee that way.


I dont have your mouth, you dont have mine. We obviously percieve quality in different ways. Im done on the matter


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## jeebsy

I did consider it briefly after seeing it in the flesh and being impressed with the bells and whistles but after considering I'm back in the Bretus camp. If I'm spending that amount of money I want the reassurance the machine will last few a long, long time and be easy to fix if anything does go wrong.

The three minutes to heat up is a big plus though - my sister was round at the weekend and asked for a coffee. She laughed when I said the machine would need 30 mins to warm up. I dread to think the shots she knocks out on her Classic!


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## origmarm

For comparison purposes I'm in the US at the moment and Williams Sonoma have a Sage DB (Breville branded) for $1100 or about £700.


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## Charliej

origmarm said:


> For comparison purposes I'm in the US at the moment and Williams Sonoma have a Sage DB (Breville branded) for $1100 or about £700.


Which version though the 900 or 920?


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## origmarm

Good question. I'll have a look tomorrow when I'm next in that office.


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## Dylan

From searching the internet, it does not look like the 920 is out in America as of yet.


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## origmarm

It's the 900. No one seemed to know there were two options so either it's not available here per post above or simply the staff don't know (not a speciality coffee shop!).


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