# Grind Retention in Compak K3



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

I've sort of alluded to this issue in another thread tonight about espresso best practice but I have a question about grind retention!

For a while now I've been thinking about the quantity of grinds that get retained inside the grinder after each use and wondering what I can do to ensure all coffee is as fresh as possible without blazing through several grams before each use - purging.

I also wanted to move to a pre weigh single does model so I could grind direct from a little pot of beams directly into my basket. But again I think retention scuppers this.

So I suppose I have these questions please:


How much of an issue is this with the K3?

If its an issue is there some magic I can perform on the grinder to lessen or stop this entirely?

If not what grinder would be best for zero retention?

If that's ludicrously expensive what other options can you see?


Many thanks for any thoughts.


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## mokapoka (Jun 20, 2011)

The K3 has a rubber guard in the chute. I'm guessing it's there as a safety precaution or to prevent clumping. After I removed that rubber guard, I no longer have problem with retention. Should you try this be aware it's potentially dangerous if you like me clean the chute with index finger.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

OK Thanks will investigate that. Would there still be grinds retained elsewhere in the machine though?

Also have you any guidance on how to remove it please?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Weigh the beans in , weigh the coffee out . The difference will be whats retained. I think there is a grinder with nearly zero retention , can't remember what it's called....... Starts with an E (seems quite common as everyone seems to have one)


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Really all grinders have retention, but some better than others.

Minimal retention would be an EK43 or a HG-ONE. Probably a Hausgrind too.

I say minimal but they are probably close to zero as it should be fairly easy to clean the grind path.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Thecatlinux said:


> Weigh the beans in , weigh the coffee out . The difference will be whats retained. I think there is a grinder with nearly zero retention , can't remember what it's called....... Starts with an E (seems quite common as everyone seems to have one)


I think this would only work if I took it apart and ensured there was no old grinds in there otherwise I figure that 19g in will pump out 19g - just the first Xg will be old and stale - my new ground coffee replacing its home in the grinder.

Does that logic stack up?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

aaronb said:


> Really all grinders have retention, but some better than others.
> 
> Minimal retention would be an EK43 or a HG-ONE. Probably a Hausgrind too.
> 
> I say minimal but they are probably close to zero as it should be fairly easy to clean the grind path.


Given I can't afford/justify a £1k grinder right now what are the alternatives? I guess I could run some beans through before each shot but this seems wasteful. Is there anything else I can do please?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

jonc said:


> Given I can't afford/justify a £1k grinder right now what are the alternatives? I guess I could run some beans through before each shot but this seems wasteful. Is there anything else I can do please?


Pretty much accept it, I'm afraid.

Pulsing the motor on and off before putting in the beans can help, if you single dose. My old grinder had bad retention but if you leaned it forward a bit some stale coffee would fall out.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Eureka mythos used is a good very low retention grinder and can be found for around £650 sometimes

But the hg1 is a great zero retention grinder that can also be got for around £650


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Thecatlinux said:


> Weigh the beans in , weigh the coffee out . The difference will be whats retained. I think there is a grinder with nearly zero retention , can't remember what it's called....... Starts with an E (seems quite common as everyone seems to have one)


The EK43 has loads of grind retention , but only for the very first shot after its been fully strip-cleaned. From there on its a single dosing dream


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> The EK43 has loads of grind retention , but only for the very first shot after its been fully strip-cleaned. From there on its a single dosing dream


That sounds like an oxymoron to me? A single dosing dream to me would be something that has zero retention, not a fixed amount of (saturated) retention.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

coffeechap said:


> Eureka mythos used is a good very low retention grinder and can be found for around £650 sometimes
> 
> But the hg1 is a great zero retention grinder that can also be got for around £650


The HG1 is that hand driven one I think? Not sure I'm man enough for all that manual work (plus, I'm the biggest inconsistency in this whole thing so having something reliant on me so much strikes me as foolhardy...)

The Mythos I will look out for. Although realistically £650 is more than I can justify right now!

Is there anything that's much better than the K3 for a hundred or two on top of my K3s value do you reckon?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Mazzer SJ with the lens hood mod seems to do pretty well. Maybe you could fashion something similar for your K3?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Even though I am uninvited, there are one or two points not covered here. if you know the retention is 5 gms, then all it means is at the start of each day, purging that amount through so that the grind that enters your basket is new and fresh. therefore the higher the retention, the bigger the problem, in theory. the big conicals, like the K10 fresh that I have had, retain 20 to 25 gms. that is a problem. 5 gms is not in myview. You will often hear people on here saying, oh, I would not have that machine because it does this or that. Yeah, right, the reason they would not buy the same machine is they do not have the money! if you make a shopping list up of grinders, having set your budget, then the foibles relative to each machine can be compared.

The K3 is a heap, but probably not much less of a heap than anything else in and around it. my advice is to wait until you have enough of a fund to buy something that will make a difference, as you have to remember, coffee is a journey with an unknown final destination point.

I would suggest to you, grind retention is a red herring unless you go conical. The amount of coffee you are saving in terms of £ notes over a year by buying for example, an HG One, would probably buy you a bag of Raves Fudge!


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

I seem to remember a thread about a grinder hopper mod where you single dosed then released the retained grinds by pushing down on the modified hopper. The air is then forced through the grind path causing the grinds to come out. I'm sure someone will remember this??

Ian


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Tje hopper is a camera lens hood. You need to work out if one will fit over the throat of the k3


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> I would suggest to you, grind retention is a red herring unless you go conical. The amount of coffee you are saving in terms of £ notes over a year by buying for example, an HG One, would probably buy you a bag of Raves Fudge!


Hello!







Thanks for your thoughts - so I think you're saying don't worry about the K3 being cr*p (until you can afford something better) just keep purging because you're not going to waste an expensive grinders worth of beans in your whole lifetime - let alone the meantime... Is that right?



dfk41 said:


> all it means is at the start of each day, purging that amount through so that the grind that enters your basket is new and fresh


But isn't it more like every time I use it, unless running consecutive shots - even one-hour-old coffee is going to nasty up the taste isn't it?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

OK lens hood folk, thanks! Will take a look on here for this.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

That is only true if your taste buds can discern the difference. Mine never can,

And 5 gms out of 18 it so

and dont don't


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

jonc said:


> The HG1 is that hand driven one I think? Not sure I'm man enough for all that manual work (plus, I'm the biggest inconsistency in this whole thing so having something reliant on me so much strikes me as foolhardy...)
> 
> The Mythos I will look out for. Although realistically £650 is more than I can justify right now!
> 
> Is there anything that's much better than the K3 for a hundred or two on top of my K3s value do you reckon?


Brasilia RR55 OD perhaps, as they have a much more straightforward grind path (i.e. no silly blind shelf) than the Mazzers there is less retained grinds and if you use a collapsible rubber lens hood as a hopper and single dose simply compressing the hood with a lid on it sharply will blow the grinds out and into the funnel. Something to note here which makes this easier is that the portafilter forks have a clip which you can set and will hold your portafilter hands free.

As has been previously said the K3 you have is sub Mignon territory really, and the better your grinder, the better your coffee. Depending on how much money you have maybe even a modified doser version of the Mazzer Royal might be within your price, I would personally avoid the Mahlkonig Home Vario like the plague given the number of regular new posts we seem to find cropping up from people suffering with wandering grind levels etc. It would also seem that the Eureka Zenith 65E that Bella Barista are doing as a forum members deal for £499 has fairly low retention (not as low as the Mythos with ~1g or less retention), but weigh up your options carefully and adopt the buy once cry one policy and buy the grinder you want rather than the grinder you can afford right now that will make do until you can afford the one you wanted in the 1st place.

The Compak K3 isn't owned by many forum members at all, generally speaking there is a reason for this sort of thing- draw your own conclusions, but I can assure you it's not because it's an unknown gem of a grinder.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> That is only true if your taste buds can discern the difference. Mine never can


Yes, that's a very good point.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Charliej said:


> The Compak K3 isn't owned by many forum members at all, generally speaking there is a reason for this sort of thing- draw your own conclusions, but I can assure you it's not because it's an unknown gem of a grinder.


Disappointing - in 2011 it was highly recommended by some. Oh well; one lives and learns, guess I just need to keep reading - then strike. The Mythos sounds like a good choice once finances allow. I suppose the question for me is do I leapfrog it via a Zenith or go direct!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jonc said:


> Disappointing - in 2011 it was highly recommended by some. Oh well; one lives and learns, guess I just need to keep reading - then strike. The Mythos sounds like a good choice once finances allow. I suppose the question for me is do I leapfrog it via a Zenith or go direct!


In 2011 very few members on here would even think about let alone consider a Titan grinder, however they are common place now, I guess people have finally seen the light in regards to grind quality


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

So would the Zenith 65e for £500 or a £650 Mythos offer better value?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mythos is a much better grinder but it is a bit of a beast, if you find a decent one at £650 grab it quickly


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Brand new with 2 year warranty v second hand. The Mythos is far superior but it will have been around the block. That said as long as the motor works correctly and the burrs are sharp........


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

OK thanks!

Certainly the comparison thing on BB site is, erm, in need of help...

coffeechap would a 'decent one' be assessed by looking at general state of it + smooth running, or would I need a higher level of tech knowledge, do you think please?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Geordie Boy said:


> That sounds like an oxymoron to me? A single dosing dream to me would be something that has zero retention, not a fixed amount of (saturated) retention.


Not at all - there are a lot of internal 'crevices' which get filled upon the first dose - that 'filler' coffee doesnt budge, then its 20 in 20 out +/- 0.2g. If peeps are that bothered can do a full hoover routine once in a while, being aware the first shot will refill the gaps in the grind chamber.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> In 2011 very few members on here would even think about let alone consider a Titan grinder, however they are common place now, I guess people have finally seen the light in regards to grind quality


I think you successfully twisted the collective forums arm CC









In all seriousness tho, we wouldn't make any progression in general terms if it wasn't for the few super-knowledgeable here that lead us the right way.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I've just nodded a k10 Doser for single dosing and it does a great job. As Gary said, the first dose in will come up short then it's nice and consistent. The issue with the non Doser versions is getting to grind path to clear that. Without clearing that then you could end up with stale grinds even though you get the correct weight out.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jonc said:


> OK thanks!
> 
> Certainly the comparison thing on BB site is, erm, in need of help...
> 
> coffeechap would a 'decent one' be assessed by looking at general state of it + smooth running, or would I need a higher level of tech knowledge, do you think please?


If you are thinking about the ones on eBay, they are fairly high mileage ones, you should check the shot count, listen to the grinder running without beans, they should be very quiet, then an overall check of the casing fir signs of abuse. £650 for a fair one, £800-£900 fir an excellent one.


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

Well, you probably all know that I have a K10 Fresh which has the reputation of suffering from monster retention.

I very rarely change the coffee that I use so do not have to waste tons of coffee each time I dial in a new coffee.

I chuck away the first 17-20g each day. I pay £20 for two kilos of coffee so it only costs me 20p per day (forgetting about electricity etc.)

I can live with that for the consistency that I get from the K10.

I think that as with everything to do with coffee, it's all a compromise and I'm not even sure how much difference I could taste between the second shot of the day and the last one!

I think that dfk really has a point!!


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

coffeechap said:


> If you are thinking about the ones on eBay, they are fairly high mileage ones, you should check the shot count, listen to the grinder running without beans, they should be very quiet, then an overall check of the casing fir signs of abuse. £650 for a fair one, £800-£900 fir an excellent one.


Thanks. Will keep looking!


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

jonc said:


> Thanks. Will keep looking!


Jon you really won't get one any cheaper than Coffeechap has suggested he knows the market for these things back to front, that said a Mythos is certainly worth splashing out on.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Charliej said:


> Jon you really won't get one any cheaper than Coffeechap has suggested he knows the market for these things back to front, that said a Mythos is certainly worth splashing out on.


I don't dispute it; he seems very knowledgeable - but I'd need to find one first!

Although I'm still not clear whether I should chance a used Mythos (when it comes along) jump on this Zenith deal while it's hot, or do nothing!

I think bank balance says do nothing right now - but I'm watching here and ebay etc. for these nonetheless!

One more question though please: would the Mignon be a step up, down - or sideways from the K3?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Sideways step to the mignon, not worth swapping really


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Okey dokes, thank you! Good to check!


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Back with more questions! Still got coffee chaps rr55 as my preferred option I think. (Once he is back and has time to look into my long list of questions about it!). But I wondered. How does a mazzer SJ compare to both the K3 and the rr55. Are there any comparison guides for grinders on here or on the wider Web that anyone recommends please? I've been very happy with the K3 and although I know you're suggesting the rr55 will be better still - what I don't want to do is take an almost sideways step and want to then upgrade again! Any help very gratefully received. My grinder knowledge is minimal! What I'm after is super consistency, ease of use for dosing etc and reliability.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The K3 is inferior to the Sj which is totally inferior to the RR55


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Okay thanks. If you've time I'd love to know how they are inferior or superior please? In terms of actual benefits the better ones bring.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

jonc said:


> Okay thanks. If you've time I'd love to know how they are inferior or superior please? In terms of actual benefits the better ones bring.


There is no specific measure of one grinders superiority over another. You can look at things like size of burrs and speed of grind, and even more technically you can look at particle size distribution. But the quality of a grinder is really decided upon by testing it and seeing what the quality in the cup is like.

Basically one is better than the other because those who have had the ability to test these grinders against each other can tell you which one makes better espresso.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

OK great thanks - so can anyone who has experience of these 3 (and any more) talk specifics. Seems to be a lot of talk of "better" with no real objective statements.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> There is no specific measure of one grinders superiority over another. You can look at things like size of burrs and speed of grind, and even more technically you can look at particle size distribution. But the quality of a grinder is really decided upon by testing it and seeing what the quality in the cup is like.
> 
> Basically one is better than the other because those who have had the ability to test these grinders against each other can tell you which one makes better espresso.


Sorry, I totally disagree. There is a reason why a commercial coffee shop does not use a K3 and it has nothing to do with taste. The reason high end grinders are used is for there ability to reproduce, time after time grinds with consistent particle size. This can come down to a number of factors including quality of burrs, power of motor, honestly, the list is endless.

The K3 is re-badged. Fracino are volume sellers of machines of a certain standard and they have an association with Compak and bang them out. that does not make them good though! I have a K8 and just sold a K10, which I would say are amongst the best flat and conical burr grinders available. At the end of the day, coffee is subjective and if your taste buds are happy drinking grinds from a K3, then there is your answer. There is a lot on inverted snobbery in coffee. A lot of people have kit which costs a fortune, but they have no idea how to use it. Others have kit no costing as much but really know how to get the best out of it.

russell, you need to go and see this grinder, make some shots with it and base your opinion on your own findings, not the ramblings of people like me.

To make it quite clear, in my view a SJ is a more consistent performer than a K3, but, you have to have a doser. A SJ is a better grinder than a Mignon, unless you want something that is small and pretty and a good performer, but does clump a little. An RR55 produces the most perfect mound of coffee, around 4 seconds for 18 gms you will ever see in a grinder of that price bracket. I just sold one to a chap with an SJ (Jason), perhaps he can expand on his thoughts if the RR beats the SJ.

If you buy a grinder from CC, it will have been stripped down and cleaned and you know it will work. If you buy a grinder from someone else, do you have the same faith?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Jason sold his SJ after using an rr55. He seemed to fall in love with it instantly


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dfk has had experience of ALOT OF GRINDERS







( I mean this a a compliment mr Kidd )

and it's good advice to anyone if they can to try before they buy .

given that isn't always possible then the ramblings of a few of us who have had a few different things comes in handy from time to time ....you don't have to take it as gospel but it's more balanced than amazon and newspaper reviews etc .


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Sorry, I totally disagree. There is a reason why a commercial coffee shop does not use a K3 and it has nothing to do with taste. The reason high end grinders are used is for there ability to reproduce, time after time grinds with consistent particle size. This can come down to a number of factors including quality of burrs, power of motor, honestly, the list is endless.
> 
> The K3 is re-badged. Fracino are volume sellers of machines of a certain standard and they have an association with Compak and bang them out. that does not make them good though! I have a K8 and just sold a K10, which I would say are amongst the best flat and conical burr grinders available. At the end of the day, coffee is subjective and if your taste buds are happy drinking grinds from a K3, then there is your answer. There is a lot on inverted snobbery in coffee. A lot of people have kit which costs a fortune, but they have no idea how to use it. Others have kit no costing as much but really know how to get the best out of it.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I totally understand dfk... would you say there are a specific set of things to look out for on a grinder that make it better than its competition? I was taking 'superiority' here to mean the result in the cup, rather than what you may have in mind for a commercial environment. I can see that a MSJ would be better than a HG One for a coffee shop, but for quality in the cup surely the HG One would be the superior choice? Just a question for clarification really, you have a lot more knowledge than me on these things, as mine is purely second hand.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Weighing up grinders is always about balancing the cup quality versus the functionality and the price you pay for them, at home or in the coffee shop .


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> I'm not sure I totally understand dfk... would you say there are a specific set of things to look out for on a grinder that make it better than its competition? I was taking 'superiority' here to mean the result in the cup, rather than what you may have in mind for a commercial environment. I can see that a MSJ would be better than a HG One for a coffee shop, but for quality in the cup surely the HG One would be the superior choice? Just a question for clarification really, you have a lot more knowledge than me on these things, as mine is purely second hand.


The point of a coffee shop, is to sell coffee (in volume). hence, an HG One (I have had 2 by the way) would be totally useless in that setting. You have to remember, that the vast majority of customers of coffee shops, probably do not make coffee at home, in the way that we do. they therefore accept and drink any old rubbish.

Some coffee shop owners also have little knowledge whilst others are the opposite. Any commercial style grinder ought to be better than a domestic market grinder, but at a price of size (hopper), doser and cost.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> The point of a coffee shop, is to sell coffee (in volume). hence, an HG One (I have had 2 by the way) would be totally useless in that setting. You have to remember, that the vast majority of customers of coffee shops, probably do not make coffee at home, in the way that we do. they therefore accept and drink any old rubbish.
> 
> Some coffee shop owners also have little knowledge whilst others are the opposite. Any commercial style grinder ought to be better than a domestic market grinder, but at a price of size (hopper), doser and cost.


Of course, I used the HG One as an example for that reason, no one want to be grinding by hand in a coffee shop.

I was imagining the home environment in my original post.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Well, no doubt I am going to get slated now, but in my humble opinion, the HG One was disappointing in many many ways, not worth all the hype or the effort and ridiculous routines you had to perform in order to get a reasonable shot.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Well, no doubt I am going to get slated now, but in my humble opinion, the HG One was disappointing in many many ways, not worth all the hype or the effort and ridiculous routines you had to perform in order to get a reasonable shot.


Again .....kinda proves my point ...

Weighing up grinders is always about balancing the cup quality versus the functionality and the price you pay for them, at home or in the coffee shop .

Some won't mind the ritual or time the hg1 takes , some will


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Well, no doubt I am going to get slated now, but in my humble opinion, the HG One was disappointing in many many ways, not worth all the hype or the effort and ridiculous routines you had to perform in order to get a reasonable shot.


I have never used one, but my inclination is to agree, I couldn't imagine myself ever spending that much money on a grinder that required such 'faff'. As boots says however, each to their own. Some people prefer the routine of a B2C


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Spot on bootsie........if you make only a few cups a day, then the HG One might be for you. Even if you only make a few cups a day, you still have to have the desire to use one though! IMHO you can get just as good a result from other grinders at a similar cost, second hand


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I have tried all three grinders

K3 stepped grinder

Smallish footprint, but in the realm if the mignon and vario in terms of cup quality, it appeals due to its size, fairly slow can clump at finer grind settings, which becomes more important when you go up in the equipment stakes

Sj stepless grinder

Industry standard, but really because most people don't know any better, best as a dosered version apt hat has been modded, consistent grind quality and good in the cup results, not the quickes at grind in but by no means the slowest, great partner to mid range equipment, but you will be wanting to upgrade at some point.

Rr55 micro metric stepped grinder

Super fluffy centre of the portafilter mound of coffee, sometimes prone to static, but using the copper flap removes this, super fast and fairly quiet. More complexity in the cup.

The key is the price when new, which usually gives an indication ( but not always) of the quality

K3. £320

Sj £500

Rr55 £800


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I really liked my RR55 and the recent upgrade was to one of the few grinders that I could both afford and would offer a significant upgrade in terms of quality in the cup, had this opportunity to upgrade at the price I paid not come up I would most likely still have had the RR55 until I had my £2k lottery win and would have then ended up blowing a large chunk of it on a grinder.

In terms of use I found the RR55 so easy to use from day one and as has been said it delivers a lovely fluffy mound of coffee into the centre of the portafilter, with no fuss and very little mess, and the quality in the cup is great, I did try mine in a local coffee shop against his pair of modded SJs and both myself and the owner preferred the cup ground from the RR55 in several blind tests once dialled in, the subsequent espressos were made and brought to us by his well trained staff. There was nothing particularly wrong with the results from the Mazzers just that to us the RR55 delivered a much better tasting cup of coffee both as espresso and in milk.

The RR55 is probably the best " affordable" ( i.e around £300 or so) on demand grinder you can find, are easy to pull apart to clean yourself , they retain less coffee than the equivalent Mazzer SJ-E as the grind path has a far better shaped exit. When I decided to upgrade from my RR55 I had a chat to Coffeechap and he even said that going to a Mahlkonig K30 wouldn't be a huge step up from the RR55 which then left me looking at Titan class grinders such as the Mythos, the on demand version of the Mazzer Kony conical, a Compak K8 or K10 Fresh etc and the Mythos came along at a price I had to get Dave to repeat twice so I snapped it up. The other thing with an RR55 is that if you ever decide to sell it to upgrade it will be snapped up even faster than a used Mignon in the For Sale forum.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Lots of wonderful comments here - each one I have gained something from - so thank you. So RR55 remains my preferred option. Over to you Mr Coffeechap Sir - soon as you're ready I'd love to finalise! Easier to speak on the phone?

P.s. I hear you've a lot on. So whenever suits you is cool - no pressure!


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