# Wet Puck



## kennyjackel

Hi All

I have a questions concerning water on top of the puck following extraction.

I find regardless of dose and with any reasonable grind, that after extraction there is always a small puddle of water on the puck.

There isn't a noticeable effect on the shot but I don't think that water should be there. My initial thought was

that perhaps it was due to the R58 being new and maybe the pressure valve needs to ware in a bit.

Does anyone else have any experience with this?

Thanks

Kenny


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## bronc

This is how the Rocket's solenoid should work:





 Is it the same in your case? Watch for the water spurting out just behind the cup.


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## kennyjackel

bronc said:


> This is how the Rocket's solenoid should work:


Thanks, I'll check that tomorrow morning but I think its the same.


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## MarkyP

Are you leaving enough space from the top of the coffee to the shower screen?

How hard are you tamping?


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## baconrolls

Hi Kenny

I've been suffering 'Wet Puck Syndrome" on my R58 for the last few months. Was dosing 16g in 15gVST basket. Recently tried dosing at 20g in standard 18g basket, 30 sec extraction giving me 30g espresso with mainly dry pucks. Have tried several blends with same results.


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## kennyjackel

baconrolls said:


> Hi Kenny
> 
> I've been suffering 'Wet Puck Syndrome" on my R58 for the last few months. Was dosing 16g in 15gVST basket. Recently tried dosing at 20g in standard 18g basket, 30 sec extraction giving me 30g espresso with mainly dry pucks. Have tried several blends with same results.


Ok, I have had a chance try try a variety of doeses and while it is true that a larger dose has less water on top of the puck, its still not what I expect or have seen on other machines. Additionally the top of the puck is not smooth. I also tried a variety of broiler tempertures and shot times.

My feeling is that there is an inherent issue with bleed or waste water valve on the E61.

This R58 is still fairly new and perhaps the issue will vanish over time but I don't expect so.

Thanks

Kenny


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## kennyjackel

One more observation:

After pulling a shot, with timing and grind fully worked out, when I remove the portafilter a small amount of water is flushed out E61 release valve. This leads me to believe that the water pressure is not completely relived after the shot.

Any thought?

Thanks


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## Glenn

When closing the lever/tap, push half way, then after a brief pause press the whole way to the bottom.

You may find a slightly drier puck as a result.


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## jeebsy

I read previously that unless there were problems with the shot a wet puck wasnt necessarily anything to worry about?

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 4


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## gmason

It's never bothered me before, but I must admit that every single shot I have pulled on the Rocket has been wet on top. I have over-dosed and under-dosed. Gone coarser on the grind, used a flat and a convex tamp and it makes no difference - there is always a quarter to half a teaspoon of water on the surface. The pucks are never sloppy nor do they fall apart. I then broke each puck apart and found that the water had evenly penetrated the coffee with no evidence of channeling. The espresso tastes great, so I'm not unduly worried.


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## kennyjackel

For some reason it does bother me, but I admit the espresso from the Rocket is really good.

I have noticed another behavior that I can't explain. After pulling a shot, as the lever is returned to off position the waste gate expels water. Then I go about my business of making an espresso drink. A moment or two later when I return to clean up the machine as the portafilter is decoupled from the E61 another small flush of water is released through the waste gate. I don't think thats normal for other machines. Does anyone have any experience with this behaviour?

This further backs my theory that Rockets waste gate valve is not functioning properly. While not a serious issue, I would prefer a proper dry puck if for no other reason then the wet puck often makes a mess.


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## reneb

perhaps you should post a picture of your puck (that just sounds wrong!)

hard to gauge from your description how wet it is.


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## frustin

gmason said:


> It's never bothered me before, but I must admit that every single shot I have pulled on the Rocket has been wet on top. I have over-dosed and under-dosed. Gone coarser on the grind, used a flat and a convex tamp and it makes no difference - there is always a quarter to half a teaspoon of water on the surface. The pucks are never sloppy nor do they fall apart. I then broke each puck apart and found that the water had evenly penetrated the coffee with no evidence of channeling. The espresso tastes great, so I'm not unduly worried.


I think my Giotto Evo v2 does that. I'm in this thread because I get wet pucks. I'm using a 21g basket with 18g of grind. I experience what you describe. I dont think that it's a problem though.


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## coffeechap

18g in a 21g basket is a big underdose!


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## frustin

think that's causing the wet puck? too much gap between the coffee and the shower screen?


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## hotmetal

Probably not in isolation, but it is still too much headroom really. VST like +/-1g from nominal, so with mine (18g ) I can go 17-19 although I usually only deviate by +/- 0.5g. Either way I find the same: slight puddle on top and a further dribble from the exhaust on unlock. Pucks are still well-formed rather than sloppy, but just a bit damp on the top. Doesn't seem to affect the shot, and it's reduced by dropping the lever a bit more slowly, or pausing slightly at halfway. But I wouldn't recommend over dosing the basket just to get a drier puck, the puck is largely irrelevant but not having any headroom affects brew and may cause channeling. I'm inclined to say 'drink more worry less'.


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## frustin

I will try my 18g basket again tomorrow and see what happens.


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## Mrboots2u

http://baristahustle.com/for-a-good-puck/


frustin said:


> I will try my 18g basket again tomorrow and see what happens.


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## frustin

I tried the 18g basket today in my bottomless. Mistake. It's totally not dialed in for it after using the 21g basket. I have no time to dial in before going to work.

The gap between the shower screen and grind obviously makes a difference.

With the 21g I get a pour after 8secs. When I tried the 18g (twice, thinking that I'd tamped to hard), I got no pour except for a tiny amount of dibble.


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## 7493

My Giotto Evo2 behaves in exactly the same way described above. Pucks are usually wet on top. None of this seems to affect the coffee so I've ignored it.


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## Beanosaurus

I had a similar problem on my Heston Dual Boiler - basically, dose accurately and tamp with consistent pressure, updose even it is beyond the recommended range of your basket and maintain the brew ratio you prefer.

The issues I observed with wet pucks and pucks sticking to the shower screen were both eliminated by increasing the dose until it stops happening,

as the puck expands over the duration of a shot as it becomes saturated with water but with too low a dose it will become soggy and often have a puddle on the top - it can even cause channelling as water can exploit the gap caused by a puck rising from the bottom of the basket, most often though the pressure of the water will keep the puck pinned to the bottom of the basket and your extractions will be even looking and be spot on technically (save for the puddle).

Try updosing 0.5g at a time and be wary of any scarring or potholes on the puck-surface after a shot as that can be caused by updosing too much.


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## frustin

something else i noticed when i use my 21g with 18g of grind, is the puck is slightly concave. I'm assuming this is the pressure driving the grind up the sides.


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## goodq

Didn't think that the wet puck issue is much of a problem. Extractions are first and foremost tasting very good and in line with tasting notes and secondly (less important) the solubility is very high and quite respectable in numbers. So didn't mind the wetness of the puck after extraction. Of course updosing reduces this issue however at some point the yield does decrease.


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## Beanosaurus

frustin said:


> something else i noticed when i use my 21g with 18g of grind, is the puck is slightly concave. I'm assuming this is the pressure driving the grind up the sides.


Potentially so, I did in my last post suggest updosing beyond the recommend dose range of your basket and -3g in your case seems very low.

The sweet spot on my machine with VST baskets is +1.5g-2g.

Wetness of the puck isn't really an issue until it becomes a sloppy mess when trying to knock it out or of it gets stuck to the shower screen when the solenoid engages.

If that happens just run a little bit of water through the group with the PF in place and it should unstick.


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## frustin

I definitely need to sort this out, this weekend. Its totally inconsistent, with spatter everywhere and i even get a tiny jet coming out at an odd angle. mess.


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## Mrboots2u

frustin said:


> I definitely need to sort this out, this weekend. Its totally inconsistent, with spatter everywhere and i even get a tiny jet coming out at an odd angle. mess.


Following would help

Clip of prep.

Clip of extraction .....


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## frustin

yeah, i think i know what i need to do. Go down to a 18g pf (non vst), redial the grinder and take it from there. I used to use a paper clip to break up the grind to get it even, but no one else seems to do that.

I should have said, if its still poor after that i'll start posting some vids.


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## Mrboots2u

if your intention is to never use the vst basket again then this might work for you

Personally i think they are better than stock basket but more demanding of prep.

If you are planning to go back to vst baskets , then stick with them now , and keep trying .

Its easier to get espresso porn with stock baskets for sure... this might not always lead to a tastier cup though


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## frustin

i dont actually have vst baskets. I have a 21g (which came with my bottomless pf) and the 18g which the people at BB gave me when i bought the rocket.

Should i get myself a 18g VST? Should it be ridgeless? Not sure what i'm supposed to get.


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## Mrboots2u

frustin said:


> i dont actually have vst baskets. I have a 21g (which came with my bottomless pf) and the 18g which the people at BB gave me when i bought the rocket.
> 
> Should i get myself a 18g VST?


Sorry when i read non vst etc.......

Up to you entirely ...i prefer them but they require a finer grind and are more demanding of prep.

The holes are more uniform and wider. Leads to higher extraction yields..

You may not taste what i do and vice versa though ....

Caveat - other non stock baskets are availible ...


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## froggystyle

A thought, if you replace the stock baskets on your machine, should you also replace the screen to VST/IMS, does this matter?

I ask i have an IMS for the rocket, but the standard screen, have spotted some IMS screens and was wondering what affect it will have in any on the issues the OP is having.

To note, i have issues a lot of the time with the IMS over the stock, something i am working on.


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## Beanosaurus

froggystyle said:


> A thought, if you replace the stock baskets on your machine, should you also replace the screen to VST/IMS, does this matter?
> 
> I ask i have an IMS for the rocket, but the standard screen, have spotted some IMS screens and was wondering what affect it will have in any on the issues the OP is having.
> 
> To note, i have issues a lot of the time with the IMS over the stock, something i am working on.


VST don't make shower screens but it doesn't make all that much of a difference, depending on the stock ones supplied with your machine the IMS screens seem to retain less gunk and flush cleaner.

They also look prettier...


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## froggystyle

Screw it, im getting an IMS one...


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## hotmetal

Yeah I was wondering if this actually makes any difference. The standard shower screen seems pretty good to me but then I only have a Classic to compare against. If the IMS one actually helps I might try one.

I don't worry about the little bit of water as stated previously, and certainly would not updose to 'cure' it, but if the shower screen helps get more even extractions I'm interested. Mine are generally ok unless I have a bad prep moment, but any improvements are welcome.


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## frustin

do i need ridgeless baskets or with?


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## frustin

froggystyle said:


> Screw it, im getting an IMS one...


why? and where are you buying it from?


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## froggystyle

Bella barista sell the double ims basket and shower plate, about £30 for both.

I have the ridgless, it can pop out when your whacking your puck out, but it means your tamper can fit down the basket, ridged can block the tamper if you dose low, which you shouldn't do anyway with the ims, think its 18-22g.


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## frustin

i dont understand why you think you need a new shower screen or is it just because you'd like to try it?


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## froggystyle

Dont really need a grinder that costs £1400, or one for brewed at £300, or a machine that costs £1600....

Just wanted to see if there is a difference.


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## frustin

just coz then.


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## froggystyle

Eggggsactly.


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## goodq

Beanosaurus said:


> VST don't make shower screens but it doesn't make all that much of a difference, depending on the stock ones supplied with your machine the IMS screens seem to retain less gunk and flush cleaner.
> 
> They also look prettier...


Ditto on the IMS shower screens. Didn't see much difference doing (back to back) comparisons with a normal screen on taste/TDS but for sure much much easer to keep clean.


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## froggystyle

Bit of a google shows that it doesn't really do much for the actual distribution of water, as already mentioned its about blocking grinds going back up to the group head, and apparently less resistance in terms of coffee sticking...


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## goodq

froggystyle said:


> Bit of a google shows that it doesn't really do much for the actual distribution of water, as already mentioned its about blocking grinds going back up to the group head, and apparently less resistance in terms of coffee sticking...


I think what makes it special is that it has a thin steel mesh that the water goes through unlike other shower screens which are thicker which allows coffee to get stuck inside the holes. The holes on this screen are two small for the coffee to get stuck in.


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## frustin

tried my 18g basket (non vst) which BB gave to me when i bought the evo. after much fuss and frustration dialing in, there is still a puddle on top of the puck. The puck is drier underneath not as sloppy, but definite puddle.


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## frustin

i dont get it!!!







Yesterday after a lot of labour and coffee, i got it all dialed in, today same settings it wont even begin the pour ~(3 pucks and less and less tamping)!







now i've got virtually no coffee left and i'm still not dialed in.


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## goodq

frustin said:


> i dont get it!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yesterday after a lot of labour and coffee, i got it all dialed in, today same settings it wont even begin the pour ~(3 pucks and less and less tamping)!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> now i've got virtually no coffee left and i'm still not dialed in.


Coffee gets affected by a lot of factors. Its a constant chase to keep things dialled in. Most likely what happened is that your grinder at the end of the session was sufficiently warm and then you start the next day when the grinder cooled down. The hotter grinder is the more you fine your grind, so today when it all went back to room temperature, your grinder is on a too fine setting.

Look at this presentation in tamper tantrum a while back (fast forward to 15:10) and it will explain what happens to hot grinders.

In my experience if your after perfection then you will always have to dial in (even if you have coffee from a dialled in setup 2-3 hours later).


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## frustin

Thank you!!!! Totally appreciate the chase (part of the enjoyment). I didnt think about the fact that burrs would have heated up. I thought i was going mad or my equipment was duff in some way.

The link to that tamper tantrum is missing.

Thank you again, blessed relief.


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## frustin

frustin said:


> tried my 18g basket (non vst) which BB gave to me when i bought the evo. after much fuss and frustration dialing in, there is still a puddle on top of the puck. The puck is drier underneath not as sloppy, but definite puddle.


Got my VST 18g yesterday, used 18g for 5 coffees and every one of them had a puddle on top. The puck itself was dry though.


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## Pret194

bronc said:


> This is how the Rocket's solenoid should work:


I'll check that tomorrow morning but I think its the same.


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## frustin

i can not stop the "spritzers" ejecting all over the shop when i'm using my bottomless. Sometimes they're there, sometimes not.

Got an 18g VST which is quite deep so using the methods to get a smooth grind top doesnt really work. i try and get the grind to be smooth but it doesnt seem to work. Once i used to use a paper click to break up any clumping and to ensure its nicely spaced.


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## Mrboots2u

Age of coffee and or burs

Dose in the basket

And clip of prep and extraction will give us some info to go and help solve this ..

Stirring may not be helping for example ( unsure on your grinder )


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## frustin

I dont stir it anymore, i give it a shake as it's coming out of the grinder.

Coffee is only 3 weeks old (from roast) and it's been in the hopper about 5 days. I've had the grinder since last summer. It's had quite a number of kilos through it now.

I'll get my trusty assistant to help me make a vid.


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## Mrboots2u

frustin said:


> I dont stir it anymore, i give it a shake as it's coming out of the grinder.
> 
> Coffee is only 3 weeks old (from roast) and it's been in the hopper about 5 days. I've had the grinder since last summer. It's had quite a number of kilos through it now.
> 
> I'll get my trusty assistant to help me make a vid.


Cool we have hopefully ruled out , poor coffee, unseasoned burrs and over agitation of the grinds..

Lets see what we can see after a clip


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## frustin

where do people host clips?


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## Obnic

Since your coffee is reasonably fresh then spritzers are most likely the result of distribution issues.

You are using an 18g VST which is meant to work with doses between 17 and 19g. Are you operating in this range?

It's worth also making sure that you have adequate headroom above the puck, even when you are within this range. If your shower screen is in-touch with the puck it can cause channeling. Put a 5p coin on your next puck before you pull your shot. If it leaves an impression in the puck when you tighten the filter, your shower screen may be deep and you'll need to operate in the lower end of the dose range.

Top end grinders make distribution easier. The rest usually require some work to make a puck that extracts evenly. So yes, current advice is simply tap the portafilter against your palm to even the distribution but I sincerely doubt this works with mid and low end grinders.

In the past I have ground into a mug and whisked the grounds using a small balloon whisk to destroy any clumps or static. I have then poured evenly into the PF and used a paperclip on a chopstick to further even the distribution. This + a good tamper resulted in good distribution and even extraction from a humble Mignon and a Mazzer Mini.

Some folk put a couple of drops of water on the beans before grinding to reduce static.

Lastly, is your machine level ie is water distributing evenly when you pull. IMS screens can help even further in ensuring water comes into contact with all of your puck at the same time.

Let us know how you get on.


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## frustin

I go for about 18g dose. Check sig for my "stuff". The 65e is meant to be a good grinder and its a lot better than the MC1 i used to have. However it does retain quite a bit of the grind, albeit i do measure occasionally to ensure i'm getting 18g in the basket. I appreciate that this grind left in the grinder is going to be older (but only by a day) than the fresh stuff.

There's plenty of room at the top of my VST so I'm pretty sure it's not touching the shower screen.


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## Mrboots2u

Ok so purging before dosing would help with retained coffee

Are you single dosing ?

If you aren't weighing dose each time then i would


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## frustin

no, single dosing doesnt work with the 65e, probably due to the retention as much as anything.


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## Mrboots2u

frustin said:


> no, single dosing doesnt work with the 65e, probably due to the retention as much as anything.


Ok thats good ... purge before dosing , weigh dose for consistency...


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## frustin

purge meaning: run a gram through before filling the basket? I do weigh quite frequently to ensure that i am getting consistent dosing. The retention of the 65e makes me paranoid i'm not getting the right dose hence why i weigh frequently.


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## froggystyle

Do you still have the original basket for the machine, maybe worth popping it back in to see if that's the cause of your issues.

I have an IMS basket and took me some time to get a decent pour from it, had to adjust my distribution and tamping slightly.


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## froggystyle

frustin said:


> purge meaning: run a gram through before filling the basket? I do weigh quite frequently to ensure that i am getting consistent dosing. The retention of the 65e makes me paranoid i'm not getting the right dose hence why i weigh frequently.


What size hopper, are you keeping it topped up and not grinding with it below half way?

maybe also do a 20g purge to clear out any old grinds completely and try.


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## Mrboots2u

frustin said:


> purge meaning: run a gram through before filling the basket? I do weigh quite frequently to ensure that i am getting consistent dosing. The retention of the 65e makes me paranoid i'm not getting the right dose hence why i weigh frequently.


IF you feel there is some/alot of retained coffee in there , then so if left overnight for example perhaps a purge would help.

Its hard to tell without knowing how much and how long the coffee is up there for....

Is there a consistent amount / weight of beans in the hopper also


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## frustin

Given the depth of the vst it just doesnt allow for using your finger to move the distribution around. It is an 18g and not a 21g.

Hopper is a small one so it fits under kitchen cabinets. I keep it topped up for consistency. I purged it quite a few times in the past because I was trying to understand how much retention there is. I generally buy 4x 250g bags of coffee from hasbean, which lasts a month (one a week). I ALWAYS clean it out properly after my last bag is finished (unscrewing grinder, hoover it out, wipe, old stuck grind is all removed).


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## hotmetal

Out of interest, how much coffee do you find is left in when you take the top off? I haven't weighed it but it didn't seem like enough to worry about? I have my 'single' button set to 1 second for purge.

I think the hopper is supposed to take up to 350g. I just put the whole bag in (250/350 depending on roaster). Boots it's maybe worth noting the 65e has a 'hat' or bean baffle to reduce the effect of a reducing weight of bean, and an auger to draw the beans into the throat. This is presumably to aid consistency of dose, which for me is about +/- 0.2g (17.8-18.2) most of the time.


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## frustin

not sure what you mean when you say, when you take the top off. Do you mean beans when i remove the hopper? Or do you mean retention grind? If so, this morning for instance, I actually banged it when i was filling the topper and there had to be about 2g that fell out onto the counter. If i remember, when i make the clip i'll add it in.


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## hotmetal

Cheers yeah I meant when you remove the top burr and look inside to clean it. I suppose most of the retention will be in the exit chute though. I don't generally tap, bang or knock mine so I've not really had a dump of grinds from the chute but it looked fairly clear in the burr chamber. A 1" purge should get rid of your 2g (?) up the spout.


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## frustin

yeah it's definitely in the chute, gentle tap or as i did, slide it out to refill this morning.


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## Obnic

Would you indulge me and see if whisking and WDT plus a perfectly level tamp improves things? If it does then we know we are working on distribution rather than grind aberrations, if not then vice versa.


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## frustin

Obnic said:


> Would you indulge me and see if whisking and WDT plus a perfectly level tamp improves things? If it does then we know we are working on distribution rather than grind aberrations, if not then vice versa.


sure, what is wdt?


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## garydyke1

Video the shot prep + shot. It will say a 1000 words


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## Obnic

frustin said:


> sure, what is wdt?


Oh it was a Home Barista acronym for using a needle/paperclip to stir grounds so they were level and evenly distributed prior to tamping. 'Weiss Distribution Technique' I think. Named after the guy that first proposed it since it seemed to work for many folk.

Or as the boys say: video will reveal much.


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## frustin

No time for WDT i'm afraid. Had my 6 year old taking the video.

I did run though 18g and dump it to make sure it was fresh grind. First link is the first shot as you can see it goes all over the shop, though the weights in both videos are exactly the same, 18.2g.


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## froggystyle

Them spritzers are shocking, its hard to see why they are happening, for me all looks ok and nothing different from what i do, maybe remove the tapping of the PF on the tamp stand, try nutating a little also?


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## frustin

i generally get more spritzers when i've made it too coarse but i dont think this is too course. The timing of the pour seems ok.


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## froggystyle

What was the total time/weight at the end? couldn't really see it on the vid.


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## frustin

it was too long, 43sec for 35g


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## froggystyle

Where did you get the grinder from?


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## frustin

bella barista


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## froggystyle

Ok, so not likely to be shitty burrs.

All pointing at distribution then i reckon.....

When you were grinding into the basket i noted you were moving it around a lot, guess to get an even pile in the center?

If you can get this nice even pile in the center whilst not knocking it to much, then if its slightly uneven use the side of your thumb and tap gently the PF on the side you want the grind to shift to, very gently though... then maybe a very light tap downwards on the tamp stand to get it to level slightly, then a nice straight firm tamp and polish.

Is your tamper flat, convexed, do you have much gap when in the basket?


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## frustin

i'm moving it around to get an even spread in the basket, not to create a mountain. Tamper is flat. The gap between the puck and the top of the basket, after polish, is more than enough i.e. big gap between puck and shower screen.


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## froggystyle

Sorry i meant between the edge of your tamper and basket, have a look at the puck when tamped, is there a crack round the edge of the puck?


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## frustin

no, there isnt. The tamper is a 58.35 which is a perfect fit for the vst.


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## froggystyle

Difficult what else to suggest then apart from distribution in the basket, but your video doesn't really show anything massively wrong i don't think..

What's your pressure set at on the rocket?


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## frustin

0.9 pre, 1.1 during pull.

I think i'll try using a paper clip to move the grind around to ensure it's all dispersed.


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## aphelion

frustin said:


> I think i'll try using a paper clip to move the grind around to ensure it's all dispersed.


Looks like distribution to me..

Try WDT, or grinding into a paper cup, stirring, depositing in PF etc.

Are the spritzers always coming from the same place? e.g. round the edges?

Regards


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## frustin

Well, difficult to figure out if they're always from around the edges. how far out is the edge really. certainly not the middle.


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## MWJB

You could be too fine. How hard is your tamp? You seem to be manipulating/wiggling it in the basket somewhat, try a straight in & down.

What was the difference in taste between the 2 shots you video'd, I didn't quite catch what was different in the prep, other than you didn't seem to weight the loaded basket in the 2nd clip.


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## frustin

I'm not exactly sure how hard i tamp, not really hard, but also i do try and get consistency with it. It might be too fine as well, it's pouring about 42sec for that 18.2g, however I have found that if it's too coarse it sprays all over the place.


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## MWJB

frustin said:


> I'm not exactly sure how hard i tamp, not really hard, but also i do try and get consistency with it. It might be too fine as well, it's pouring about 42sec for that 18.2g, however I have found that if it's too coarse it sprays all over the place.


Think about the shot time relating to the brew ratio rather than the dose, the dose (well 80% of it) doesn't go anywhere & whatever it loses is roughly replaced by water.

42sec. for a 1.9:1 brew sounds like there might be obstruction of the flow through the puck. See if you can get down to 30-35sec. without having to tamp very hard. I'm more thinking about the wiggle when you insert the tamper too, this may be effecting a less even tamp. Do you have a spouted PF if you are concerned about spray?


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## frustin

yeah 42secs is too long for sure and i have managed to get that down to 25-30 seconds. However because of my inconsistencies, i've found it frustratingly difficult to sustain that 1.8:1/2:1 ratio, that i was looking for.

Wiggling it sometimes because its a perfect fit into the basket with the tamper. If grind (from the first shot) is stuck to the side of tamper, it can make it difficult to remove without pulling the whole basket out (it's ridgeless).

i'll make it a touch more coarse tomorrow.


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## Obnic

OK. I'm not going to hedge. I'd be more certain if I were right next to you but I think your puck building is the problem. I and many others have been there. And even when you think you've nailed it, changing grinders often puts you right back to square one again too.

So here's my penne'th. it's really emphasising Froggy and MWJB points.

It looks like your grinder delivers nice fluffy grinds (shouldn't need WDT) but your shaking of the PF whilst it fills is creating gaps at the edges and horizontally compacted zones. (Honestly, unlike some of the other chaps above, I thought this was quite a violent manoeuvre.)

Also it looks to me like despite shaking the grounds they are still not evenly spread across the bed - as can be seen from your tamping which sinks on one side then you straighten it up applying pressure to the high side.

I know what you said about timing but I think your grind is also too fine which is why you get a long pour despite wicked channeling.

If you filmed under the basket, I'd expect to see either a doughnut of coffee appearing around the edge first or coffee streaming out of one half of the basket and not the other. Or even both.

Remedy:

Loosen the grind a bit otherwise I think it'll choke when you fix the distribution.

Move the PF slowly in a ring as it fills so you fill around the edges and then the middle of the basket. One circuit is all you'll have time for during the grind.

No more shaking of the PF in any way that might push grounds together. As Froggy says, very gentle taps with thumb or on palm of hand until the coffee bed is evenly distributed. Your looking to agitate grounds enough to move them but not to push out air between them.

One gentle tap down to shake out any air pockets.

By now the bed should look level.

Apply level tamper. Firm finger pressure should be enough. (The days of 30lbs of pressure are gone.) the tamper should sink level. If it sinks unevenly it's because there's less coffee under one side.

Finally, you may get on better with a convex tamper base. They can seal the edges better. I know that's heresy but I get better EY when I use my convex reg barber and I get doughnuts when I use my flat base.

Hope that helps.


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## frustin

Thanks very much everyone. I've got a few things to try out.


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## froggystyle

Its a good point on the shaking of the PF when filling up.

My E10 tends to fill towards the side of the basket, i don't shake it but just gently rotate to get as mush as possible to try and get the grinds towards the center, not always easy with a big grinder that takes just over 3 seconds to get your dose out though.

Another tip is to be a little careful when locking the PF in the grouphead, sometimes i have clipped it resulting in a crack round the edge of the grinds...


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## frustin

froggystyle said:


> just gently rotate to get as mush as possible to try and get the grinds towards the center...


i'm not sure what you mean by rotate, do you mean move the pf handle in a horizontal motion left and right but still have the grind land dead centre? OR pf left and right, but the grind lands around the sides of the basket? OR left and right, but grind lands in a spiral motion (out, toward in)?


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## DoubleShot

Our friend Gwilym explains one of froggystyle's tips here:


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## frustin

nice one on those vids, i've had a look at the distribution one and the putting pf onto the group. I'm probably being heavy handed. Probably putting too much pressure on the tamp as well but it's always difficult to gauge in videos.


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## hotmetal

Fwiw I thought pretty much the same as Obnic. (I know, easy to say afterwards! )

Bearing in mind I have a 65E and a Rocket (albeit the R58 but pretty similar) and the same tamper, my impression was that the grind was a bit too fine and the tamp not really straight and 'heavy handed' as you put it. The way the pour dripped out slowly from different points is what I see if I need to back off the grind a tad. Your shot time tends to confirm that. The tamp looked not really straight and I also thought it looked a bit like you were forcing it to be level. (Basically what Obnic said). I'd say just back off by a quarter of a number (65E adjuster is great but the gradation scale is rubbish!) and maybe be a bit gentler with the grinds, just a little shake to make the heap in the middle slightly less tall, then a gentle flat tamp straight down. I don't find nutating helps though - it usually slows the shot down and gives me a hole in the middle, causing more problems than it solves (for me at least). Anyways your shot doesn't need to be any slower.

I was quite shocked at the spritzes you got (haven't had anything like that) but I went smugly back to my machine and pulled a shot this morning that squirted me straight in the eye and tasted sour (very rare these days) so I feel your pain and don't feel quite so smug now hahaha! I'll follow this thread and see if I might learn something too.


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## frustin

I dialed down a tiny bit and got it too fast, then tried again a couple more goes and got a 25sec extraction but it's still NOT a nice fluid flow. it sort of lobbs it out by the time i need to turn off the pump.

I checked the show screen and there is quite a bit of grind on it after extraction. Shower screen is NOT touching puck when i fix it to the head. Puck is not sloppy, nice and dry in fact, there is a pool of water on top but that seems normal.

I'll do another video when i get back from the school run.


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## frustin

I didnt need to do another video. I've since run out of the old bean (Costa Rica Finca de Licho Yellow Honey Vila Sarchi) and got a new one (Nicaragua Finca Limoncillo Natural Red Pacamara 'Elegant'), both from Hasbean. Dialing in took 3 shots, I'm on the money with a 1:2 ratio at 18g grind, 36g pour. Grinder is giving me 18g on the nose every time.

Had this bean for a week now and it's been fine with only a minor adjustment to the tightness of the grind, to 28-29secs.

I'm not sure what this means. Just a difficult bean?


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