# advice on pour please



## rajb (Sep 18, 2014)

hello all,

i have become slightly (!) obsessive. i love pour over coffee for the skill/attention it takes to all the variables involved in the coffee making process.

i have also been watching these youtube videos (i know i should get out more, but there we are!):






try as i might with my hario buono and fresh beans/ground with a porlex at around 7-8 clicks from closed - there is no way i can get the coffee to bloom without dripping the way these videos would suggest. and in pouring, however slow i go, i am unable to ride the bloom the way these fellas do either.

i have refrained from drowning the beans as this seems to result in too quick an extraction with the hario, and i dont have a bonmac or kalita. does anyone know if you can get a bonmac in england? i met a chap from UCC in a bike shop here and he said that you could contact the company directly, but i havent done so yet.

so i scratched my head - was it my pour? the hario does not allow as careful a pour as a finer kettle (so i threw money at it and ordered a takahiro). but i am quite careful, but trying to produce a string of pearls type pour with the hario produces some turbulence.

then i thought is it my beans - the older the bean, the longer you need to bloom for as more CO2 has escaped - but even with just 2 day old beans, i cant quite get a bloom like these vids.

then i thought, is it my grind? so i am now thinking about buying a grinder just for pourover/aeorpress - any tips? i like the simplicity of my set up tho.

if i really slow pour - 12-13g coffee, v60-01, 25 g bloom for 30 seconds then up to 190-200mls in 2mins 30ish, i get a bright clean cup, lots of top notes/florals (Water at about 92C) - which gets sweeter and sweeter as it cools, but not a lot of body. perhaps thats just what you get with pour over.

if i make the grind finer, theres less definition in the top, but bigger body, but the brightness/acidity is taken over by slight muddiness.

i am enjoying all the cups, but feel the search for nirvana/moksha/the holy grail/absolution/ecstasy etc is still out of reach - or have i set myself up to attain the unattainable?

any thoughts? anyone experienced similar "pour envy" or is it just me on my own?

cheers

raj


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Bloom with a little less than 2g/g if you want less drip through.

12g to 200ml is a high enough ratio to net you a sturdy enough cup, if you extract it thoroughly enough.

Don't worry about "riding the bloom". After blooming & a little pouring you want the grinds to sink so that the brew water passes through the bed.

92C is a bit on the cool side, try more like 96-98C, you lose heat in the brewer.

Break up your pours to slow the flow, try 20g bloom, add 60g at 30s (in 10secs, spiralling out, scales now read 80g), then another 60g at 1:00 (140g), last 60g at 1:30 (200g). When the last of the water is in (~1:40) give the surface a light stir to ensure the sides of the filter are washed down...try a Perger tap if your feeling daring. 

If it's a shade over (I was just over at 4 pours, so you might be OK with 3), after blooming go to 2 pours of 90g @ 40sec intervals (30s & 1:10).

Note taste & draw down time & report back.


----------



## rajb (Sep 18, 2014)

thank you very much for your response - i will definitely try this, particularly the hotter water - i thought the lower temp was better for not over-extracting, which is why i was going for a slower more continuous pour than the pulse pours at the lower temp of 92C.

if i may ask: if you are pouring 60g in 10secs, is the water level not going quite high up the filter and "flooding" the beans? from all the videos i have seen on japanese pouring techniques, noone seems to flood the beans in a V60 (or bel drip or chemex for that matter) because that results in a faster drain out of the bigger hole at the bottom of the V60 (compared to a Bonmac or Kalita).

the video of the chap using just the V60 paper with only some wire holding it in place were particularly impressive from this point of view.

and lastly, i don't know where i got the idea from, so apologies if this is bunkum, but i thought stirring on a pour over was "cheating"?

thanks again! will let you know tomorrow how it goes.

raj


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

A little after a minute into the brew the grounds will degass & lose buoyancy, dropping back to the bed...they may be stirred up by further pouring, but really you want the water above the grounds, not them mixed up in it. The agitation of the pour early on is good for extraction.

Japanese drip brews (especially the wire cone) tend to assume extraction along the length of the filter, centre of the slurry outwards. Another, currently popular, school of thought is that you want a nice flat, or mildly domed bed with the water sitting on top, draining through... some brewers like the Hario Cafeor & Able Kone push you towards the Japanese style, but the V60 works both ways.

Fast & slow are a balance of pour style and grind size, to change the drain time, pour smaller pulses (with coarse grinds) to stretch out the time, or faster/bigger pulses (with fine grinds) to reduce the time. It can be nice to have a bit of leeway with a single hole brewer, but for good extraction you really want the coffee bed presenting the bulk of the resistance, not the holes...means a little more care must be taken though.

Though I say "you want"...I'm assuming Western tastes in brewed coffee, the Japanese seem to prefer a darker roast, coarser grind (hence big blooms) and even according to some commentators, deliberately underextracted coffee. It's a big world, room for differing preferences, but here & the US the focus is on the "Gold Cup" model, based on consumer research, measurement & analysis.

Stirring is a good idea, but easy to overdo, or do inconsistently - a light, quick stir at fill will get the water gently spinning, washing the grinds off the filter walls & incorporating into the bed, so they can be more equally extracted (this can be done by the spiral pouring too). Stirring the bloom to ensure evenly wet grinds is a good technique too, this often pushes on extraction compared to a more static bloom, but bear it in mind for future reference. Nothing is cheating if it gets you a sweet, tasty coffee.


----------



## rajb (Sep 18, 2014)

Well - first cup this morning - Esperenza Geisha from Climpson, beans roasted 22 days ago (!). Med roast. Ground at 8 clicks on porlex (i.e. variation between shards and coarse sand). Kettle more or less off the boil decanted into Buono. Did a combo of your suggestions and Perger:

20g bloom for 30 secs, stir during bloom, then 60g 10 sec pours as you suggest (haven't quite achieved a Rao spin) but including the sides so no dry grounds. Perger tap. All drained by 2mins10 really.

The cup - well its hotter! It is more rounded - better balance between the florals/fruit and a slightly meatier body, almost no lip-smacking dryness.

I think I will fine up the grind by 1-2 clicks and see what difference that makes.

I am obviously a geek/nut but I do find it fascinating how little changes make such a difference. Have likely spent for no reason on the Takahiro but at least it will be a lovely thing in a fairly minimalist kitchen.

Thanks MWJB.

Raj


----------



## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Some further questions ...

1. Some of those videos show them only pouring into the centre of the grounds, leaving the rim untouched. What's the point to this?

2. I usually discard any coffee that drips through during the bloom, as I figure that any water passing through the coffee in the space of a few seconds will be under-extracted. Anyone else do this?

3. When timing pour over, do you time from the beginning of the bloom or when the pour over starts afterwards?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

1. It assumes that the grounds will extract centre out, along the full length of the filter medium. You can do this with the floating cones & with the Able Kones, as a weight of water above the bed can bypass the bed via the filter straight into the carafe, or just run through the upper layers overextracting earlier than desired. Closed cones (Chemex, Melitta) can hold the water above the bed & extract top to bottom, the V60 & Kalita Wave seem to be able to do this too.

2. Your extraction is the total output of the brewer at the end of the brew...if you end up with a nominal extraction, EVERYTHING that has come prior to that point is "underextracted". It's only nominally extracted when it includes early, middle & later components. But, yes, discarding the early drips is a known technique. You can get a bitter oily film on the surface of drip brews which might be where the early extracted lipids have stratified, discarding them can limit this...but be careful, they help the perception of "body", cutting too much might lead to a watery brew?

3. Do either, but do it consistently & be specific about what you are doing when relating to others. E.g. a 2minute brew with no 30second bloom, flow starting almost immediately, will have a same brewing/flow time as a 2:30 brew that includes a 30second bloom (assuming virtually no flow during bloom).


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

1. To avoid water going through sides and not contacting the grind leading to extraction problems - more of an issue with brew systems like V60 which has splines to keep the filter paper away from side wall of brewer. Less of an issue with Chemex where paper is in contact with the side wall. It's important, even with V60, to ensure the grinds don't get left high and dry - see Scot Rao's video. Only way to avoid this is to pour up to the side wall carefully to wash down any grinds that are beached.

2. Why are you discarding drips during the bloom? This will wreck your extraction.

3. Time starts moment your first drops hit the grinds.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

rajb said:


> does anyone know if you can get a bonmac in england? i met a chap from UCC in a bike shop here and he said that you could contact the company directly, but i havent done so yet.


Coffeehit do the Bonavita cones with a single hole.


----------

