# Sour espresso



## Kamakazie! (Nov 22, 2012)

I've had my Gaggia classic since just before Christmas, but am having issues with getting the espresso not to be dominated by the sourness of the early extract.

I've been grinding 15-16g or 18-19g of HasBean / Union beans in a porlex (into a 14g & 17g LM strada basket respectively), getting the grind setting / tamping consistent has been a bit of a challenge, but even when i get the 1.6ish ratio in 25 seconds sorted, I am finding that the espresso is dominated by the taste of the early extracted espresso.

Any tips as to how I can bring out the sweetness more? Is dosing less & increasing the ratio my only option?

It doesn't seem to be running sweeter until close to the 20 second mark.

Thanks in advance.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Stop using HasBean?

(cue outrage







)


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Expobarista said:


> Stop using HasBean?
> 
> (cue outrage
> 
> ...


Haha









Their beans can be bright tasting..maybe try something with a darker roast for comparison

Or are you already comparing Hasbean and Union?


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

Possibly try a bit less surfing to get the water warmer at the brewhead.

Sourness can be an indicator of water too cool being used. Usually bitterness can be a sign of water too hot at brewhead.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Expobarista said:


> Stop using HasBean?
> 
> (cue outrage
> 
> ...


Didn't they say union too?









In which case... Londinium?







Seriously though, I'd start with a coffee which doesn't have much acidity, like malabar.

That or try a longer, shorter pull? I prefer bitter to sour tbh.


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## Kamakazie! (Nov 22, 2012)

Already tried Union Revelation but still getting that bitterness.

I'll try not surfing the temp and seeing what that does. That would be excellent if it fixes it as it would make pulling the shots that bit more straight forward!

Longer, shorter pull? As in grind finer & tamp harder to get less espresso in a longer time?

I'll give a low acidity coffee a go next time round. I've got some Union Rogue to get through first.


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## Kamakazie! (Nov 22, 2012)

I have to note that the first HasBean did make for an lovely tasting Americano (with a little sugar). I think I could get on board with brewed coffee if it brings out those same flavours more without making me react like I've sucked on a lemon!


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Kamakazie! said:


> Already tried Union Revelation but still getting that bitterness.


 Sourness or bitterness? They are very different issues.

There could be a problem with your thermostat and the brew water not being hot enough (I've had this problem with a Classic).

Try switching into steam mode for a few seconds then back to brew to see if this results in something more palatable?


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Kamakazie! said:


> Already tried Union Revelation but still getting that bitterness.
> 
> I'll try not surfing the temp and seeing what that does. That would be excellent if it fixes it as it would make pulling the shots that bit more straight forward!
> 
> ...


Exactly. But is it bitterness or sourness? As rolo mentioned, very different things.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I have a carezza which is basically a classic in a plastic case and minus a pressure release valve (biggest pain in the ass ever), and I'm also a bit of a hasbean devotee because when the moons are in alignment, and the external temperature is 18.5 degrees, and the gaggia has been on for exactly 32.7 minutes, and I grind precisely 15.775 grams into the basket, I get an amazing shot!

No but in all seriousness the biggest issue I've found here is how fine the grind is and the temperature of the gaggia. I poured a shot today that ran far too quick, it came out quite under extracted and was rightly pretty sour and weak. I tuned up my grind, put 15g into the machine and pulled a lovely 24 second extraction. It was much better.

I've also learned to play about with the temp of the gaggia to get the right kind of shot, but its not easy. Sometimes you need to tap the steam switch to bring the boiler up a few degrees and sometimes you need to purge the boiler a little to stop it flashing to steam.

All in all I ended up giving up and getting a better machine which is on its way. If you're fussy about espresso then you either need to PID the gaggia or trade up to something more stable. I think these machines are aimed very much at those looking to make very simple drinks, most likely with over roasted Italian beans or pre ground coffee, where the results are never gonna be amazing IMHO


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Rogue is going to be similar to the HasBean style.

I'm not saying its bad coffee, I don't like it, but many here do like that sharp style.

Revelation is a polar opposite and it might be that it is too dark for your buds.

My gut feeling is that your water isn't hot enough.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

It sounds like your palette doesn't like acidity

As mentioned. Try some of the Londinium Espresso Brazil Rainha Estate beans or the Coffee Bean Shop Columbia Bucaramanga

Both have low acidity and should be more in line with what you're after


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## Kamakazie! (Nov 22, 2012)

RoloD said:


> Sourness or bitterness? They are very different issues.
> 
> There could be a problem with your thermostat and the brew water not being hot enough (I've had this problem with a Classic).
> 
> Try switching into steam mode for a few seconds then back to brew to see if this results in something more palatable?





RisingPower said:


> Exactly. But is it bitterness or sourness? As rolo mentioned, very different things.


Whilst I don't have the most acquired taste buds, I am pretty certain it is sourness.

Mainly because I've run a few extractions where I've used a tea spoon to taste the coffee at various stages in the process. The overwhelming taste is definitely that which comes at the start of the extraction.

Thanks for the coffee suggestions. I'll give them a go.

Otherwise maybe I'm just not ready for espresso and will stick with the americano / latte etc that I have been enjoying.


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## billyg23 (Aug 4, 2012)

As a Silvia user and almost in the same ball park as you at one point I can second the following points:

Fitting a PID. I fitted a very basic one to my machine for under £30 and it's made a huge difference. I still have to fiddle about and it isn't a cure all but wow!

Londinium Rainha estate....I loved those beans when I had them. Try Rave Coffee's Brazil Daterra too, I'm loving these at the mo.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

Kamakazie! said:


> I've been grinding 15-16g or 18-19g of HasBean / Union beans in a porlex (into a 14g & 17g LM strada basket respectively), getting the grind setting / tamping consistent has been a bit of a challenge, but even when i get the 1.6ish ratio in 25 seconds sorted, I am finding that the espresso is dominated by the taste of the early extracted espresso.
> 
> Any tips as to how I can bring out the sweetness more? Is dosing less & increasing the ratio my only option?


Light roasted beans are harder to extract. Since sour flavors come out easiest, you are unfortunately getting stuck with a sour flavor balance (assuming you are correctly identifying the flavor defect as "sour."

The solution is to increase your extraction yield, which will get you into a more balanced flavor region. The suggestion to pull at a higher temperature will increase solubility and may help. In addition you can try (in order):

(1) Grinding a little finer with a 14g dose. Finer grinding increases extraction.

(2) Increasing your 1.6 ratio to 1.8 or 2.0. This will, of course, dilute your final espresso, but it will most likely be better balanced.

(3) Follow the suggestion to use beans that are easier to extract (usually darker roasted).

There are other strategies for people who have machines offering more flexibility, like an even finer grind and a long preinfusion at 3 bar. But you probably can't do that with your current setup.


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## radish (Nov 20, 2011)

I wasn't so fond of Rogue @ 18g, preferred it around 15/16g in a 15g VST basket (so a finer grind).


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I would suggest running the shots slightly longer or trying some ristretto style shots


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

Keep trying with the Union beans. Even Union Rogue isn't as acidic as Has Bean in my opinion. I tend to find Has Bean can be a little too sour for some of their beans.

As a general rule, for sour pours, increase your extraction, so reduce the dose and make the grind finer, until it goes from being too sour, to too bitter.

I find some beans need a good 35s to avoid sourness.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

RisingPower said:


> Didn't they say union too?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I Lol'd after reading this . Really brightened up my day


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