# Commercial machines



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

There's a question I'd like to be able to answer but at the moment I'm somewhat ignorant. Here goes.

I can get excellent espresso with a gaggia classic.

I can get excellent espresso more rapidly and consistently from a bog standard commercial espresso machine.

I can get the same but with fewer breakdowns from a £7000 San Remo or such like, along with some nice features.

What does a £14000-£18000 do that justifies the price? Pressure profiling, ok. Cool points, ok. What else?

Are there any articles on this topic that someone could provide a link to?

I'm not being down on expensive kit. I just want to know the benefits. I suspect they are intangible, like those of the uberboiler IMO


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## radish (Nov 20, 2011)

Given the limited production runs, I guess your paying for R&D, bespoke tooling and, in the case of Kees van der Westen, beautiful craftsmanship (which doesn't make sense on a ROI sense but will make you smile each day).


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Great topic Mike!

There are no like for like comparisons due to the nature of the machines.

Even lower spec models vary quite considerably in price.

Perceived value equates to a fair share of some products where there is no discernible difference in quality

However, many parts are hidden, and each manufacturer uses different components, some handmade, others from stock parts.

They are very much like cars, in the fact they have different value for different people as well.

The detailing and finish also adds to the cost.

You have a huge variance of technical features within the machines, and even within some lines of models (eg Strada MP and Strada EP can both produce coffee that tastes the same, but they have different methods of achieving it, with the latter offering a perceived level of consistency that the other should not be able to match)

The real question to ask, is "what machine can I get within my budget that meets 'most' of the criteria I set out?"


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## James Hoffmann (Jul 24, 2008)

What machines out there are priced £14-18K? The only thing I know about up there is a Slayer.

Essentially as you spend up you get increased consistency and control of temperature and pressure. Once you hit the top end those things are as covered as they need to be and it is about ergonomics, serviceability and personal enjoyment when using the machine. There are several manufacturers who built great machines that offer sufficient control and consistency (in my opinion anyway).

Then, rather boringly, it comes down to service and support. Spending £10k on a great machine doesn't matter much without parts availability and engineering support so that if something fails it is quickly repaired to prevent loss of earnings. Not enough people worry about this.


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

I know a little about this. I work for AFEHC - a group which basically promates Spanish hardware for catering / restaurant / industrial situation. I know less than that could implicate as I do the marketing but I do get involved in tecnical specs etc.

The price is just 'pijería' as we say here - it's all looks baby (and trade marks)! The truth is that the most reliabloe machines are the entry level Futurmat machines. Gaggia Española also has some nice machines for the trade too as do Ascaso and Iberital. But these machines are basically metal boxes with groups on them. Little design. All of the machines are reliable and as good as the people operating them. Keep them clean, make sure you get good pressure and use decent raw materials and you should be okay. I will ask some of the tecnicos tomorrow what they think but they usually tell me to recommend the Futurmats and Gaggia Española.

All the machines could go wrong and need upkeep. Can you not hire machines in the UK?


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

xiuxiuejar said:


> Can you not hire machines in the UK?


Yes, machines can be hired in the UK


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

Glenn said:


> Yes, machines can be hired in the UK


 Here, most businesses hire machines, if they're not good they change them, if they go wrong, they get fixed quickly (quickly for Spain!) and if you don't like it, choose another one.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Verifying list prices isn't easy, but this post about Prufrock's Kees purportedly at £17000 is what got me thinking. Maybe that price is wrong.

http://greatcafes.blogspot.com/2012/02/ultimate-spirit.html?m=1

Thanks. Glenn, your car simile works very well for me. The quality of a porsche or merc is undeniable, but I don't feel I'm any the worse off for having a VW. It fits my needs. (A 911 wouldn't get up the hill to our front door!)

So if these are the main benefits of top end machines then they will have to remain aspirational for me, for the moment. Thanks for the help, chaps. Look forward to any more info if available.


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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

To give my personal experience:

I've got a gagging classic at home

I first worked with an entry level commercial machine (rebadged, don't know what it was)

I used to work with a La Marzocco GB5

I have since used at work a Nuovo Simmonelli Aurelia, a Slayer and a Synesso

My personal opinion is that, of these, the highest end ones (Slayer and GB5), I basically couldn't pull a really bad shot on. They have preinfusion, which I think forgives a lot in terms of tamping and distribution. Apart from that, I now feel I could not pull a shot on the gaggia which would compete with a good shot on the named commercial machines above. The rebadged one I can't comment, since it was very badly battered!

In general, I suspect the answer, as with most technology, is that more money gets you a better machine, but that how much better decreases as you spend more.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

RolandG said:


> Apart from that, I now feel I could not pull a shot on the gaggia which would compete with a good shot on the named commercial machines above.
> 
> .


This is really the crux of the matter. If the extra money gets a superior tasting shot then there's a tangible benefit. Any chance you could expand on this please Roland? In what way is the shot from one of those machines superior?


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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

Well to some extent, this is personal. I try to keep a fairly consistent methodology to running the gaggia, but I don't put in huge amounts of effort trying different temperature surfing routines, etc. Setting aside the preinfusion:

I think that good commercial machines have very good temperature stability. This means that you can pull shots quite ristretto, get the sweetness, but not be overwhelmed by the acidity. I'm guessing that the extraction temperature on my gaggia is sometimes low, creating sourness.

Quality and quantity of crema is greater. Again, this may be down to temperature stability, or my lack of technique with the gaggia - and I'm not sure if it matters that much anyway









Beyond that, I find it hard to quantify. I just tend to find mouthfeel, sweetness and clarity are all more pronounced on a good commercial machine. I think the only real advice I have is to talk to people who have them, or ideally play with one yourself









I think it's fair to say all the espressos which have made an impression on me have been from shops (the reverse of brewed coffee, incidentally!).

Also bear in mind that I've used good commercial grinders with the commercial machines and an MC2 with the gaggia, so that is also a factor for me.

Btw, don't take this as a recommendation for spending loads of money off the bat - there's a lot to be said for upgrading as you go! You'll also need to factor in size and workflow - for example, I used the GB5 on a train station platform during commuter hours - being able to simultaneously pull a shot, steam milk and do the next thing on the till, whilst chatting, was important


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

So I hope you don't mind if I paraphrase a summary









1. pre-infusion (available on mid level machines too)

2. temperature stability (again, a £5k machine with an 11 litre boiler has this)

3. A better taste/mouthfeel but it's difficult to say why or what is causing it.

I did enjoy an espresso I had from a Synesso once. It tasted unlike any other. But it still seems to me that the high price is perhaps more about state of mind than anything else. Nothing wrong with that... I'd just like to be clear if that's the case


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## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

I think a blind taste-off is required at this point!

Same beans, different machine! Obviously the grind will be different but it's all relative.

Not sure how that would be achievable though without asking a supplier but then you have the old thing of the sales people trying to meet their margins!


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

I think looking at the machines on paper one might expect the higher end machines, specifically those with PID controlled double boilers, to be more thermally stable than the lower end HX machines. That is not to say that consistent brew temperatures cannot be achieved with HX machines, just that it requires a bit more skill and effort. These double boiler machines often have a brew boiler per group that is PID controlled and fed through a heat exchanger within the steam boiler.


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## Fran (Dec 27, 2010)

Very interesting topic, Mike. I have very little personal experience on this, but the comments in this thread that I found significant were on the ease of pulling shots. Sure, when you spend 5 mins at home distributing, tamping, temp surfing and weighing a shot at home, you might get a great shot out of a classic. But as Roland says, he couldn't get a bad shot out of a high-end machine. If you're busy, then that counts for a lot, but more importantly, if you don't have high-end baristas, you can put anyone behind the machine and still get good coffee (obv. not quite as simple as this...).


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## Fran (Dec 27, 2010)

If you're looking to get a bit more hands-on experience, you could go to Prufrock whilst in London. They have a Barista Resource centre, which you can rent by the hour.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

jimbow said:


> I think looking at the machines on paper one might expect the higher end machines, specifically those with PID controlled double boilers, to be more thermally stable than the lower end HX machines. That is not to say that consistent brew temperatures cannot be achieved with HX machines, just that it requires a bit more skill and effort. These double boiler machines often have a brew boiler per group that is PID controlled and fed through a heat exchanger within the steam boiler.


Yes, I do think that better boiler design, PID and build quality are perhaps part of it. But then again the San Remo Verona they are using in the UKBC goes for approx £7k (list) and has a large boiler that feeds individual 300ml group head boilers, and is completely temperature controllable from the button pad (I sound like a salesman now!!).

I guess you really can't discount factors like how pleasurable it is for the barista to work with, or how much kudos the barista gets for working with it. If a coffeeshop can attract more skilled and passionate staff by having a top end machine then this should perhaps reduce expenditure in other areas... recruitment, training, etc... as well as ensuring that the customer gets a better coffee purely by virtue of the barista being of a higher calibre. You know, I hadn't ever thought of it this way before. I'm now thinking wouldn't a Synesso be a good thing?!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

BTW wish I didn't keep having afterthoughts and having to edit my posts!!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I dont have experience of working on Commercial machines.....For me the step up from Gaggia £200 to Expobar £1100 was night and day in terms of shot consistency. Going from having no idea on temperature, or brew pressure, to having all the tools at my disposal to tweek and and dial a coffee in & temp-stability & e61 pre-infusion without needing to think about it- priceless.

Where do I go from there as a home user? Well id guess to get an equal step up again you would have to spend Synesso money which isnt going to happen! Yes a GS3 or Duetta would be a better machine but I doubt the shot quality improvement would be noticeable. What would offer me better espresso quality would be a grinder upgrade...from a Mini-E (£475) to something like a Kony or Robur (£1-2k) thats beside the point.

Best 2 shots Ive ever had were both Synesso's.

...incidentally Ive tried 2 coffees through Synesso's which I then extracted at home ....My results were not far off.....Id score St Ali's shot as 95/100 and Prufrock's shot as 96/100 and my own 91/100 & 90/100 ... Of course those guys are better Barista's than me & they know the coffees better than me. I know I can do better on my machine with more tweeking, i change coffees too often for that though.

Laura doesnt drink much espresso. I have to prompt her to taste shots I think are good, she reluctantly sips and will bluntly proclaim ''sour'' or ''bitter''. She does keep telling now-days me that my extractions taste almost as good as the ones she has tried in the better coffee houses..on their synesso's etc..she isnt one to blow smoke up my a$$.

If I had my own coffee shop I think my head would explode with options ....would probably visit many coffee shops & ask the barista's views on machines...& then change my mind multiple times. Id shoot for reliability and something tried and tested over something over-hyped with the 'bling' factor.....


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

> Id shoot for reliability and something tried and tested over something over-hyped with the 'bling' factor.....


An respected engineer told me the other day that he often says to one of his customers who runs a KVDW Spirit that they should consider a more traditional machine, because the Kees needs a lot more maintenance than other machines, which just pushes the costs up even more. But the Kees is part of their brand identity I suppose... cool coffee.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> An respected engineer told me the other day that he often says to one of his customers who runs a KVDW Spirit that they should consider a more traditional machine, because the Kees needs a lot more maintenance than other machines, which just pushes the costs up even more. But the Kees is part of their brand identity I suppose... cool coffee.


As Mr Hoffman said - as boring as it is , think reliability and maintenance support. 'Boring' machine can produce awesome espresso


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I've been thinking lately that I'd love a go on a commercial machine and grinder just to gauge where I am in comparison to my home setup.

Also ease of use and obviously hunting for the elusive god shot.

At the Attic in York (Harlequins) I couldn't even see what machine they were using because it was surrounded by 4 different grinders.

It was served on a wooden board with a glass of iced water though which was all the service I needed.

Them having a bling machine wouldn't have made my espresso taste any nicer in my opinion.


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

fatboyslim, the attic at Harlequin has a Dalla Corte







Gordon puts these beyond La Spaz


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## wastedhours (Jan 2, 2012)

I like the look of the Roma TCS and the Strada. Then I think that one is probably twice the price of the other and makes me wonder how much better a shot can it pull?

Everyone makes good points - a blind taste-off would take brand-snobbery out of play, but brand-snobbery could be important for fostering the culture.

Interesting thread.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

For me, when salmon fishing, if i am totally happy with my set-up, my fly, the weather and water conditions, I fish methodically, i am more relaxed and just fish better in general, I get 'that knowing feeling' and as a result am more likely to catch salmon. In reality, the choice of fly pattern, rod, brand of line etc have no real bearing on whether a fish is going to take the fly, but the discomfort, self doubt and negativity from not being totally happy with what you're are using, will actually lower your chances. When I leave the water, even if I caught nothing, I know I gave it my best, a tip of my cap to the river and it's wildlife to say thankyou for what it shared with me, I leave feeling refreshed and that i really enjoyed my time spent taking in the natural beauty around me, the sights, sounds and smells of the river and surrounding countryside, I didn't spend my time getting frustrated and disenchanted.

I feel the same can be said about what machine you are using, given that the theory behind successfull espresso can be 100% fulfilled on a lower end machine, would mean that fundementally you wouldn't need a more 'bling' machine to achieve the same level of quality, however an enormous amount can be said for being totally comfortable with and trusting your equipment, whether you find that comfort on a La Spaziale S5 or a La Marzocco Strada is where the question really lies, I don't think price or status really comes into it as you may feel totally at home on an FB80 but totally out of sorts on a similarly cool Strada.

Just


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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

MikeHag said:


> So I hope you don't mind if I paraphrase a summary
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ha! Fair summary







So...

To point 2) - temperature stability has a lot to do with more than just the boiler - it's about having stability under a heavy work load, and maintaining temperature at the group head, regardless of whether it's been pulling shots constantly for an hour or not at all for 6 hours. Better machines are more stable.

To point 3) - I'm not an espresso guy or machine expert







Talk to some experts and I'm sure they'll tell you more about it!



MikeHag said:


> What does a £14000-£18000 do that justifies the price?


I've not kept track of machine prices closely, but I suspect £14000 is a bit high. I'd say the vast majority of shops only need a two group machine, so that keeps the cost lower - but I'm the wrong person to talk about that.

I suppose my final position is - more money gets you a better machine, which will be more consistent and have greater potential in terms of shot quality. Whether that is worth the money is very difficult to say, and entirely personal dependent upon your business. I'd say my only final suggestion is to seek lots of expert advice, and try to get a go on some different machines before making any commitment.


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