# Sage Oracle - single filter basket - results ?



## Oracle3000 (Dec 5, 2018)

Hi folks, I'm new to the forum. The first coffee forum I have ever registered. Really love good coffee. (Fav: 1. flat white 2. latte)

I bought my Oracle in April 2016. Still excited about it. I use it every day. (still, I would still consider myself the worst Barista ever, but that's for another day...)

Question: I had to buy a single filter basket from Sage for my Oracle. Back when I bought the Oracle, the single filter basket didn't exist.

So, I bought one and I couldn't be any more disappointed with it. Same settings, but results are so much worse. I get more than double the amount of espresso within the same extraction time.

For example:

double filter basket: 30 seconds - 60 ml of espresso

single filter basket: 30 seconds - again 60 ml of espresso (sometimes even more!)

Hope you Baristas can give me some advice.

I know of course I could try different brand of coffee, etc. .... I tried - same weird result.

Thanks a lot.


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## Iris (Oct 29, 2018)

You actually need to grind much finer with the single basket, well that's my experience anyway. I am sure some of the more experienced members would be able to advice you better.

I have given up using the single baskets as they are very difficult to master, if I want a single I just use the double basket and waste the other espresso.

And welcome to the forum, you will get some great information on here


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## Oracle3000 (Dec 5, 2018)

Thank you Iris, that's exactly what my experience looks like. I also waste double the amount of espresso for a single. And apparently I wasted money on the single basket.

Still, I'd like to think there is a way to even results out. Maybe someone else knows how?

Thank you guys


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Maybe use the single basket if anyone wants a longer/weaker/less caffeinated drink?

It presents less resistance to the machine than the double, so at the same grind you brew at a longer ratio, or as @Iris says, you could grind finer when using the single for a normal strength drink.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

@Oracle3000 Iris is right you have to grind finer for the single basket .. I think Sage had a problem with the single basket and the auto tamper spinning the puck , which is why it has a sanded effect internally .. On one forum I read Sage were suggesting wetting the inside of the basket before filling it .. Also if the tamping mechanism is slightly out of adjustment ie set too low, it may have problems with the tamp due to the shape of the basket .. You definitely have to dial in the grinder to suit the single basket with the same bean differently to the double . Best of luck


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## Oracle3000 (Dec 5, 2018)

Thank you, grinding finer is absolutely not an option. That's how you ruin the taste of the coffee.

A single basket should do what the name says. Producing a single espresso shot.

Quite frankly, I feel betrayed by Sage.

Thanks for confirming my worst fear. I will give up on it and keep have to waste a LOT of beans.


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## Oracle3000 (Dec 5, 2018)

@Nicknak Thank you for your suggestions. I will try to wet the basket and try again. Maybe it will have an effect.

Adjusting the grinder is so problematic. The oracle will always need a few shots before adjusting to the new grind settings, right? Doesn't seem very efficient.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Oracle3000 said:


> Thank you, grinding finer is absolutely not an option. That's how you ruin the taste of the coffee.


What do you mean by this, please?



> A single basket should do what the name says. Producing a single espresso shot.
> 
> Quite frankly, I feel betrayed by Sage.
> 
> Thanks for confirming my worst fear. I will give up on it and keep have to waste a LOT of beans.


Some good advice has been given. Why will you waste a lot of beans?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

If it's the same single basket as used on the DB I think it has another problem. I believe it is the same basket but may be coated. Unless you overfill ie probably not enough room for the grinds to expand an ideal amount, you will very probably be tamping against the shoulder in the basket rather than the grounds. This has cropped up a some time ago on the Oracle as well.

Overfilling is ok within limits. I used the single a lot on my BE struggling for strength on many beans. Limiting grinds expansion was ok up to a point but past it the drink went weaker. The ideal left a puck top with very very slight signs of the hole in the screw that holds the shower screen on so in practice was probably allowing the grinds to expand fully. Might be a solution on their 58mm baskets but I have just stopped using it. I use a Fracino 7g single instead - circa 10g on Sage but only for "weaker" drinks which can suite some beans such as Mandheling. My usual bean MM was ok on the BE in the single but brewed at 15 bar which the DB can't do.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Oracle3000 said:


> A single basket should do what the name says. Producing a single espresso shot.
> 
> Quite frankly, I feel betrayed by Sage..


The single basket does exactly what it is supposed to do. Make coffee with a smaller dose. It's not magic & can't change the grind size of the dose you put in it, nor take control of your shot parameters if you don't care to.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

@Oracle3000 .. I am not an expert by any means but from what I have read on here and limited use of different baskets from singles to doubles from different manufacturers you have to dial in each one on the grinder to get similar results in the extraction etc ... I used the Oracle for about 3/4 months and once you get to know the beans you used I knew the ball park to start with .. I might be wrong but a single basket from any manufacturer does need to be dialled in differently unless you want the drink to be like that your experiencing with your single at this time


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## Oracle3000 (Dec 5, 2018)

Thanks everyone, really useful this forum. I think it's just hard to get a good result anyway. And using a single basket makes an already complex process unnecessarily more complex.

Nobody can argue against that I'm afraid. I am so disappointed. But I will use my energy to get get the best out of the double basket, the single basket is utter rubbish. Thanks for confirming.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> The single basket does exactly what it is supposed to do. Make coffee with a smaller dose. It's not magic & can't change the grind size of the dose you put in it, nor take control of your shot parameters if you don't care to.


Fair point - perhaps I should mention that I only make 315ml total water based drinks. Shot ratio's what ever the basket size are always in the same range.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Fair point - perhaps I should mention that I only make 315ml total water based drinks. Shot ratio's what ever the basket size are always in the same range.
> 
> John
> 
> -


In your case shot ratios are not particularly relevant, your final drink is always 315g/dose weight. All that changes is efficiency of extraction.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> In your case shot ratios are not particularly relevant, your final drink is always 315g/dose weight. All that changes is efficiency of extraction.


Of course they are as they have a distinct effect on taste.

John

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## Mic_b (Nov 21, 2018)

I have the Oracle and have had some success with the signal basket. It does need to be dialled in with a much finer grind than the double. For example the bean I'm using currently is grind 20 for a double and 16 for a single. You also need to check the auto dosing is set to give between 12 and 14 grams. I found the best way to use the single basket was with a long 7-10 second pre infusion and aiming to get 24-28 grams out in 35-40 seconds. HTH.


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## Mic_b (Nov 21, 2018)

I think the Oracle is quite good at what it does but if you'd like to up your game and switch between dose amounts / beans etc. you need a separate grinder. I'm hoping I get the niche zero in January and start using it like the DB. I can see the built in grinder being fully redundant which is a shame but I'm now in to espresso way more than I was when first buying the machine.


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## Oracle3000 (Dec 5, 2018)

Mic_b said:


> You also need to check the auto dosing is set to give between 12 and 14 grams.


Thank you so much @Mic_b, how exactly would I check that? I am very curious.


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## Mic_b (Nov 21, 2018)

You can check the dose by weighing the portafilter empty and then the full weight and do the maths. It is possible to adjust the dose by a few grams by adjusting a bolt above the tamper fan that is secured by a small allen key. If you find the dose is out of range I would be happy to explain in more detail how to do this if you are struggling


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## Oracle3000 (Dec 5, 2018)

Thank you @Mic_b, very insightful. I will try this out today and let you know of the results!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Of course they are as they have a distinct effect on taste.
> 
> John
> 
> -


You can make the drinks you make at almost any ratio by changing your grind.

By using "what ever" basket, you're not keeping anything constant - different basket & grind = variable result.

So, as I said, all your drinks are 315/x. The taste changes because of the difference in extraction efficiency (& different bean/roast). Different basket size makes final drink more/less concentrated, within that range of extraction (which is wide).


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> You can make the drinks you make at almost any ratio by changing your grind.
> 
> By using "what ever" basket, you're not keeping anything constant - different basket & grind = variable result.
> 
> So, as I said, all your drinks are 315/x. The taste changes because of the difference in extraction efficiency (& different bean/roast). Different basket size makes final drink more/less concentrated, within that range of extraction (which is wide).


*.*

John

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## Oracle3000 (Dec 5, 2018)

@Mic_b I have now checked the amounts.

Double: 21 grams exactly.

Single: varies between 11 and 12 grams.

Should I change something?

Btw: Today something very common happened. I used the machine 3 times. 2 Singles and a double in between. Adjusted the grinder each time. But the last one was terrible. 70-80 ml in 30 seconds DESPITE adjusting the grinder for a single.


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## Mic_b (Nov 21, 2018)

Those dose amounts are good for the Oracle. I do find it hard to get consistently good results though and that's why I'm investing in a good quality grinder that I can single dose as I only make 1-2 drinks a day. I think the oracle is designed for having a full hopper of fresh beans and using the double basket. This when dialled in it does make good espresso however I just can't use it like this as I'm not getting through enough coffee. The beans in the hopper go stale quickly as the machine heats them up with it being integrated. The most consistent results for me are to single dose with it. My workflow is something like this. Run grinder until totally out of beans and leave it running for an extra minute or so > add 25g, dose and then extract. I use scales and alsways aim for an extraction 1:2 (44g) in 28-38 seconds and adjust the grind to taste. This does work for me and I do get nice espresso now using either basket but they have to be dialled in differently. It is worth noting for some reason for me I need a long pre infusion for the single basket 7 seconds ish and either none or a very short pre infusion for the double or it tastes bad. I have no reason why this is and it's taken me ages to figure this out. This also may be just me, my machine, grinder, taste etc and not work for you.

If if you stick with it I'm sure you'll get there. Looking at peoples post on here there are a lot of sage dB users with a great deal of knowledge and top quality grinders that must be making really really good coffee and it's basically the same machine


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## Oracle3000 (Dec 5, 2018)

thank you @Mic_b for your suggestions! I also keep the hopper empty. Always fill in about 30/60 grams just before grinding. I will also try out your suggestion with the pre infusion. That's what I experimented the least up to now. Always aimed to be in the 7-12 second range.

I guess I will have to think about whether or not it's worth investing in a grinder. But before that I will work on getting the most out of the double filter basket. I may need your advice on that as well very soon









thank you!


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## oracleuser (Sep 26, 2018)

@Oracle3000

Did you miss my thread?









https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?46364-Oracle-Touch-problems-with-single-cup

The single basket from Sage is bullshit. Over and out!

You may try the 10g from decentespresso:

https://decentespresso.com/basket


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## Oracle3000 (Dec 5, 2018)

@oracleuser oh cool, thanks for sharing. Sounds exciting!!

I will read through the thread. So you're happy with the basket from decent espresso??


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Oracle3000 said:


> @Mic_b I have now checked the amounts.
> 
> Double: 21 grams exactly.
> 
> ...


Your 2nd single may have been altered by changing the grinder setting. Each time you change setting some of the previous settings grinds will still be in the grinder. It's essentially the same grinder as they use in the Barista Express so I do know that the grind retention is pretty low. If you can arrange to waste a couple of grams of grinds each time you change settings it should get rid of the ones from the previous setting.

If your keeping the beans in the hopper it can also be a good idea to waste a couple of grams of grind 1st thing in the morning if say that last time you used it was the previous evening.

John

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## Oracle3000 (Dec 5, 2018)

Thank you John, I will try that out! Sounds like a good trade-off. Fingers crossed.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

1. getting constancy with the oracle is hard , even if you just use the double basket.

2. single dosing it, it going tome this harder.

3. as mentioned grief retention will be a factor between the two.

try using the machine as the manufacturer intended to get the best results. Double basket with some beans in it .


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## Oracle3000 (Dec 5, 2018)

@Mrboots2u

grief retention?









And what do you mean by "some beans" ? You keep your beans in the hopper on purpose??


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Oracle3000 said:


> @Mrboots2u
> 
> grief retention?
> 
> ...


Yes i keep beans in my hopper , i have about 200-250 g in there. that is 10-12 double shots. If you have two a day thats 5 days worth . It's unlikely your beans will stale in the hopper with a lid on it .

It is compromise, the oracle system really is not designed to be single dosed (IMHO) . It struggles to deliver shot to shot consistency at the best of times. Yes it has a single basket, yes most machines come with a single basket. They are not optimal or easier to use.


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## Oracle3000 (Dec 5, 2018)

Thanks for clarifying. I actually don't mind keeping it almost empty. I try to keep the beans at surrounding temperature in a "coffee vault".

What I rather do is to *flush the machine 3-4 times *right after the Oracle reaches operating temperature. I got that from Phil McKnight. He says do it after using the machine, but I always do it before I use it. That way I also *warm up my portafilter and the basket *- is that what you guys do too? But I always make sure all components are dry as well.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Oracle3000 said:


> Thanks for clarifying. I actually don't mind keeping it almost empty. I try to keep the beans at surrounding temperature in a "coffee vault".
> 
> What I rather do is to *flush the machine 3-4 times *right after the Oracle reaches operating temperature. I got that from Phil McKnight. He says do it after using the machine, but I always do it before I use it. That way I also *warm up my portafilter and the basket *- is that what you guys do too? But I always make sure all components are dry as well.


Re portafiter temp , if so do the same thing each time then thats the key. Ie If you dial in with the pf warm and make a shot with the pf cold , this may , may have some impact.

Personally I don't I just buy the water temp a little from 93 ... it's all very subjective tho.

Reason to flush after, is to clean the screen presumably .


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## oracleuser (Sep 26, 2018)

Meanwhile i have a "theory" for the inconsistencys that happen sometimes with the Oracle. When i put the portafilter to the machine i can feel what's going on: As fuller the portafilter is, as harder it is to get it connected to the machine. More resistance.

The tamping mechanism of the oracle works with pressure. When the beans age or are grind was uneven or whatever, then it seems to happen that the machine put somehow more or less into the portafilter or the height is different because of the different pressure-feedback is given from the different grind.

I notice that when clicking in the portafilter. When it gets hard i know before: This will be a shot with less volume.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

oracleuser said:


> Meanwhile i have a "theory" for the inconsistencys that happen sometimes with the Oracle. When i put the portafilter to the machine i can feel what's going on: As fuller the portafilter is, as harder it is to get it connected to the machine. More resistance.
> 
> The tamping mechanism of the oracle works with pressure. When the beans age or are grind was uneven or whatever, then it seems to happen that the machine put somehow more or less into the portafilter or the height is different because of the different pressure-feedback is given from the different grind.
> 
> I notice that when clicking in the portafilter. When it gets hard i know before: This will be a shot with less volume.


I tested the dosing on mine ages ago , it was pretty accurate over a number of days. plus 0,4g which isnt bad


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## oracleuser (Sep 26, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> I tested the dosing on mine ages ago , it was pretty accurate over a number of days. plus 0,4g which isnt bad


Yes i know, the dosage is accurate. But then it's maybe the fill height or pressure?

Just a few moments ago the oracle grinded and tamped a shot and after screwing the portafilter in which had much resistence i knew:

This shot will have ~ 10ml less than the before. And i was exactly right!!

I can tell you meanwhile very accurate by the resistence of scrwing the portafilter in which ml output the machine will produce







So, what do you think?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

oracleuser said:


> Yes i know, the dosage is accurate. But then it's maybe the fill height or pressure?
> 
> Just a few moments ago the oracle grinded and tamped a shot and after screwing the portafilter in which had much resistence i knew:
> 
> ...


If you have problems putting the portafilter in you are most certainly putting too much coffee in the basket.

John

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