# Sage Dual Boiler: too thin espresso



## katastrofa (Apr 7, 2016)

Hi,

I am a new owner of Sage Dual Boiler and wanted to ask a few questions on how to use it properly.

I am using it with stock settings except for the water hardness (bumped up to 4). As I'm waiting for the free Sage Smart Grinder to arrive, I am using pre-ground coffee from Waitrose (I know!) with the dual-wall filter. The coffee I get from 2 Cup button on my Sage is good, but it's too thin - I would prefer to have less water and thicker espresso. Before I get my grinder, what can I do to have better coffee?

1. change the extraction time from 30s to something shorter?

2. change the extraction volume?

3. use manual button?

4. use more coffee and tamp it harder?

Thanks for all advice in advance.


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

The problem is in the coffee and lack of grinder. Wait until you get the Smart Grinder and buy freshly roasted beans. Until then you can use the manual button to make a shorter drink which will have a thicker mouthfeel.

P.S. Are you Bulgarian by the way?


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

You will struggle to get anything other than a thin gusher using supermarket pre-ground I'm afraid.

Don't worry about time, get yourself some small scales and go by weight (1:2 a good place to start - that's coffee in to espresso out)

Volumetric function is just a clever way of achieving the same as pressing the manual button twice. Suggest using Manual until you have learnt the machine.

See if you can find a local roaster who will sell you some pre-ground for espresso. Not ideal by any stretch of the imagination, but an improvement on the supermarket stuff.

You will really notice a difference when you get a grinder. Just make sure you have some nicely rested beans ready to go!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Use the right amount of coffee for the basket, extract less volume (weigh the PF, tare the scales & re-weigh when filled to confirm dose, then weigh the espresso as it lands in the cup on tared scales on the drip tray).

For a given amount of coffee in the PF, the less liquid you extract, the stronger/less watery it will be.


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## katastrofa (Apr 7, 2016)

Thanks, I'll try out the manual method.

I'm Polish actually, so somewhere near ;-)


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

Ahh, I see. Your username means car crash in Bulgarian so yeah..


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## katastrofa (Apr 7, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Use the right amount of coffee for the basket, extract less volume (weight the PF, tare the scales & re-weigh to confirm dose, then weigh the espresso as it lands in the cup on tared scales on the drip tray).


Thanks. What is the right amount of cofee for the basket?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

katastrofa said:


> Thanks. What is the right amount of cofee for the basket?


Doesn't your machine come with a Razor? Dose the basket & tamp, then use the Razor to confirm the height of the puck. Then compare the weight of the PF to that of it empty & the difference is the weight of coffee dose (will change a little from preground to freshly ground & from bean to bean, but work out an average as a starting point).


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## katastrofa (Apr 7, 2016)

Should I tamp "as hard as possible"?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

A few kg to 20kg. Using preground and your dual walled basket will create some pressure, so just squeeze the air out of the puck, when you feel the give in the puck stop, stop pressing.


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## katastrofa (Apr 7, 2016)

Thanks!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

katastrofa said:


> Should I tamp "as hard as possible"?


If you can yeah....try putting a foot on the top of the tamper and pressing down hard....pro tip: a little cornflour sprinkled/stirred into the espresso/or ground coffee, will thicken it up nicely until you can get a fresh beans to grind up.

P.S. Or use a hammer on the tamper, if it's easier.


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## Currymonster (Apr 3, 2016)

Not sure about yours but I am only getting 4 bar pressure i think i need to tamp even harder i have my grinder set to finest

i know the pump is ok as i get max pressure with no coffee in PF

i bought my Sage DB last weekend


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Is this the pre-infusion pressure or the main shot?

If you need to grind finer with the Sage Pro then reposition the top burr according to the instructions. I had one decaf that just wouldn't produce anything but a gusher using the Sage grinder, but was fine on a MXD at larger grind size. Go figure! Something to do with distribution methinks.


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## Currymonster (Apr 3, 2016)

NickdeBug said:


> Is this the pre-infusion pressure or the main shot?
> 
> If you need to grind finer with the Sage Pro then reposition the top burr according to the instructions. I had one decaf that just wouldn't produce anything but a gusher using the Sage grinder, but was fine on a MXD at larger grind size. Go figure! Something to do with distribution methinks.


this was main shot not much higher than preinfusion

i'm using a dualit grinder until my Sage grinder arrives tomorrow


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## katastrofa (Apr 7, 2016)

I tamped very hard and used a bit more coffee, using the Razor to scrap the surplus back into the bag. On manual, using 25s total extraction time I got a much better, thicker shot. The other difference is that now the pucks in the portafilter are dry, while before there was a bit of water on top - is that a good sign?

Also, should I take the basket out of PF each time I am done making espressos, or can I leave it there? It is a bit of effort to take it out, and I don't want to damage it.


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## AMCD300 (Feb 11, 2016)

OK. My advice. Watch every YouTube video you can related to the Sage and Brevile range of machines. Dual Boiler and Oracle mainly, firstly from the manufacturer then sites like Seattle Coffee Gear and Whole Latte Love. Watch, no CONSUME videos to learn how to get the best from your DB then learn about the basic skills of grind dose, tamping and extraction. This is a good place to start:











Then you just have to practice... Get scales and weigh everything. And lastly, unless you programme the buttons, stick to manual mode and the timer. Just remember to take pre-infusion time into account as this will need to be subtracted from your overall extraction time. For instance with a 10 second pre-infusion and 28 second extraction the clock will read 38 seconds. Sounds obvious until you obsess with trying to hit 36g of espresso in a 25-30 second time and fail, after forgetting the pre-infusion bit!!!! Speaking from experience.....


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Have you booked the White Glove Service?

They will give you a couple of hours on how to get the best from your Dual Boiler.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

AMCD300 said:


> Sounds obvious until you obsess with trying to hit 36g of espresso in a 25-30 second time and fail, after forgetting the pre-infusion bit!!!! Speaking from experience.....


Nobody should be obsessing about trying to hit a target time. They should be obsessing about trying to hit the best possible taste, regardless of the time.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

AMCD300 said:


> Just remember to take pre-infusion time into account as this will need to be subtracted from your overall extraction time. For instance with a 10 second pre-infusion and 28 second extraction the clock will read 38 seconds. Sounds obvious until you obsess with trying to hit 36g of espresso in a 25-30 second time and fail, after forgetting the pre-infusion bit!!!! Speaking from experience.....


I include pre-infusion in my count of shot. So 30 second shot for me generally includes a 7 second pre-infusion (7+23). I'd be interested to check that's what others do?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jlarkin said:


> I include pre-infusion in my count of shot. So 30 second shot for me generally includes a 7 second pre-infusion (7+23). I'd be interested to check that's what others do?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Count from hitting the button, because this is the thing that you can reference. Even if you say you have 10sec preinfusion your flow may not start bang on 10seconds, so your shot time excluding preinfusion may not relate solely to the extraction/flow time. Time is just a reference as @risky says, focus on the weight & taste, steering taste with grind. Worry about times that are way out of the norm.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

jlarkin said:


> I include pre-infusion in my count of shot. So 30 second shot for me generally includes a 7 second pre-infusion (7+23). I'd be interested to check that's what others do?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


As Mark says, the way you're doing it is the accepted convention.

Some people will give their recipe specifically breaking it down I.e. 18 in/48 out/ 7 sec pre infuse / 23 sec shot / total shot time but that would probably only be if you were discussing different pre infuse times and their impact on the taste. For the majority of discussion, total shot time is all people are interested in.

Not sure why @AMCD300 thinks you should be subtracting it.


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## Kati G (Apr 8, 2016)

Hi there, I am new to this forum. I would like to ask you guys if it worth to buy Eureka Mignon older model ?

My friend has found one in her basement, and it was her fathers who used it maybe for about year. We have cleaned it a little bit put some beans in it and seems like working good. I want to buy it from my friend but I need your advice >

What should I look for on a grider, what is the most important thing that maybe has to be replace, etc.

I would apreciate your advice. Have a great day ! Kati


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## katastrofa (Apr 7, 2016)

NickdeBug said:


> Have you booked the White Glove Service?
> 
> They will give you a couple of hours on how to get the best from your Dual Boiler.


I will, after I get the free grinder (you need to send in a voucher to get it), so that they show me how to use it too.


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## AMCD300 (Feb 11, 2016)

risky said:


> As Mark says, the way you're doing it is the accepted convention.
> 
> Some people will give their recipe specifically breaking it down I.e. 18 in/48 out/ 7 sec pre infuse / 23 sec shot / total shot time but that would probably only be if you were discussing different pre infuse times and their impact on the taste. For the majority of discussion, total shot time is all people are interested in.
> 
> Not sure why @AMCD300 thinks you should be subtracting it.


So this is an interesting discussion. I see folks pulling shots at 25-30 seconds with no pre-infusion and stating that this is how it is done. I therefore assumed that if you add a pre-infusion time of 7 seconds then this will take the overall shot time to 32-37 sec.

@risky suggests however that pre-infusion is all part of the total shot time of 25-30 seconds although I thought this would have resulted in an under extracted shot, i.e. one that is actually only pulling 18-23 seconds at 9 bar of pressure, but has been pre-wetted for a more even extraction.

I get 36 g from 18g in my VST basket but only after around 35-38 seconds 'Total Time' which does include a 7 second Pre-Infusion. I take 10 seconds off the total time because this is how long it actually takes for the coffee to start exiting my naked PF. Barista guides I have watched say to start the clock when coffee pours and not when you start the extraction. That was why I suggested deducting the 10-or-so seconds of pre-infusion time.

I do not see how two shots that have the same total shot time can be the same if only one has a pre-infusion? If one of the shots does not start pouring until 10 seconds after the other how can they deliver exactly the same result either in weight or taste, unless pre-infusion reduces overall extraction time by the same amount?

I am almost jumping up from my desk to draw on my whiteboard......


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Your over thinking it . Brew to brew ratio - adjust based on taste - . Note time but don't base your extraction solely on it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

AMCD300 said:


> I do not see how two shots that have the same total shot time can be the same if only one has a pre-infusion? If one of the shots does not start pouring until 10 seconds after the other how can they deliver exactly the same result either in weight or taste, unless pre-infusion reduces overall extraction time by the same amount?
> 
> I am almost jumping up from my desk to draw on my whiteboard......


If you're brewing by ratio you are killing the shot by weight, not time. Achieve the desired weight, adjust grind to taste, record time. Yes shot time will vary from machine to machine, but also with ratio.

What is "extraction time"?


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Right there is some confusion here. Most people are only interested in total shot time (is anyone actually interested in time?). If you pre infuse then you can tell people the details as mentioned before, I.e 4 sec pre infuse at line pressure / 30 sec 6 bar / total time 34 seconds

You should always measure from when you flick the switch, drop the lever, etc etc. To when you stop the shot. Taking 10 seconds off because that's how long it takes before you see coffee is a no no. Always measure from when you flick the switch. That is a 'datum' that doesn't change.

If you pull a shot with no preinfusion, and the shot takes 30 seconds your total shot time is 30 seconds.

If you pull a shot with preinfusion and your shot takes 30 seconds, your total shot time is 30 seconds. Yes, 4 seconds of that might have been pre infusion but the total shot time was still 30 seconds.

Time alone does not dictate if a shot is under/over. Every coffee, grinder and machine is different. I've had very quick shots that tasted amazing, equally I've had shots that took a long time taste good.

Two shots, with and without preinfusion will taste totally different. I wouldn't expect them to taste the same.

Don't get too hung up on time. Taste is the key. Espresso recipes in general are not very interchangeable as everyone has different gear, water etc. As long as you are consistent in your approach. Don't worry about other people being able to follow your recipe.

As Mark has said, kill shot by weight, not time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

The use of pre-infusion will impact the speed of the rest of the shot*, so it is really not sensible to say 35s - 5s pre-infusion = 30s shot

Record total time to desired weight as described above.

*this is my understanding - happy to be corrected


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## AMCD300 (Feb 11, 2016)

Thanks all - I had been happily using ratios and taste to good effect until I thought too much about the timings. Having been explained by you all it now all makes sense again...


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