# Please help me understand the different results...



## Bigpikle (Oct 14, 2014)

OK - still rather new but let me see if I can explain what I'm looking for.

I bought some Grumpy Mule Artisan blend beans the other day. Used my Porlex and ground them a little too fine combined with tampig too hard. It was 20 secs before I saw and liquid through my Gaggia Classic and took 60 secs to deliver about 1.5oz (scales hadnt arrived then). Good news was that when added to steamed milk the taste was HEAVEN! - chocolate fudgey rich amazing goodness proclaimed by my wife as the best coffee she'd ever had.

So now I've been dialling in my Mignon and tonight saw success according to the standard recipes. 18g dose in, 30-35 secs to deliver 36-37g of coffee. Better grind and less pressure on the tamp and I was able to produce a fairly consistent result. Added to milk as before and lovely milky coffee with great coffee taste - no sour or bitter and lovely creme etc. But lacking the chocolate fudge notes I had before. Straight shot was also great with a lovely creme and no sour or bitterness.

Obviously a few variables to consider but how could the results taste like 2 completely different drinks? One was almost a hot chocoalte while the other clearly a lovely coffee. Is it as simple as the much longer extraction time on the first pull created such a different flavour result?

Tips and ideas for experimentation welcomed please. Having achieved some consistency I'm interested in where to go next to create diferent flavours.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Welcome to the world of coffee making variables! The shot you describe as 'heaven' was way outside what is generally accepted time parameters but worked well for you in milk. Did you try it as a straight espresso? My guess is the natural sweetness of the steamed milk toned down the over extracted bitter elements. To hit different tasting notes, try things like upping the dose or pulling as ristretto (1:1.5) - 25grms from 18grm dose but, whatever you try, always keep extraction time in the 25-30ish sec ball park. Not a bad idea to keep notes for future reference.


----------



## Bigpikle (Oct 14, 2014)

Thanks for the tip on the timing - thats good to know. I did taste the 'heaven' shot and it was a little bitter so you are probably right about the over-extracted shot.

I have kept notes on every shot so far but the scales only arrived yesterday and with the new Mignon as well I am now in different territory. I'll play around with the brew ratio a little. Trouble is the beans are about and I'm onto some Rave stuff next so I guess its time to try again!


----------



## Bigpikle (Oct 14, 2014)

OK - same thing happened again today with Rave Sig blend. Decided to make a flat white but didnt quite get the grind right after a change of beans. Had the Mignon set a little too fine I guess from the result.

18g in and it took 43 secs to get 33g out. Tasted the espresso and tasted fine from a tiny sip, but added milk and ended up with a great drink with far more of the caramel & nut flavours that the label suggests are typical of the beans. Best milk drink I've had since the over extracted drink a while back using my Porlex.

There must be some flavours coming through in the over extracted pulls that really cuts through the milk and adds much more richness and flavour than a 'correct' 1:2 30 sec shot.

In hindsight I should have just tried a 30 sec shot that was closer to 1:1.5 and then tried it with milk. Maybe after lunch I'll try that with the same grind and dose and just stick to 30 secs.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Yep , the milk is sweet and creamy.

I prefer signature in milk BTW. Have you trier adding just a smidge of sugar to the espresso and tasting.

How does that taste


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

43 secs isn't outrageous. Quite a few on here pull for slightly longer than the gospel 30 secs


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Oh there is no correct ratio

And certainly not one for every coffee and every person and every type of drink.

Use a brew ratio as a base , taste , adjust .

Use use a ratio to be able.to replicate what YOU liked last drink, not what people tell you , you should like.

Does a 1:2 ratio espresso taste better as espresso than the ristretto BTW ?/


----------



## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Just be aware the Signature blend is changing its taste profile up to 10 days after roasting.

Ian


----------



## Bigpikle (Oct 14, 2014)

I really appreciate the comments and suggestions everyone - this is EXACTLY the sort of thing I need to investigate to work out my technique and tastes.

Just to be clear, I really like the 1:2 espressos I'm getting, but so far the milk drinks have varied from amazing to a little underwhelming.

1. So it seems like I should try tasting the pulls as a ristretto - presumably a finer grind to achieve 1:1 to 1:1.5?

2. Perhaps try adding a ristretto to milk and see how that tastes?

3. Try a little sugar - although I find espresso sweet enough already and cant stomach sugar in tea or coffee...

I'll start to tinker and see what comes from it. I've been looking forward to this stage of the learning process as now I can start to find what works for ME and learn how changing different elements of the process will change the results. Its one thing being able to follow the 'rules' but for me the fun with stuff like this is when you learn how to break the 'rules' to get what you want


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Don't think of it as rules . think of it as being able to measure, so if you decide you want to, you can repeat.

If you don't want to you know how and what to change.

It wouldn't be uncommon to like one recipe for espresso one different one to be added to milk.

Have fun......

This might be interesting for you to try .

Taste the Extraction:


----------



## Bigpikle (Oct 14, 2014)

thanks Boots - seen that before (along with all the ChefSteps vids) but watching them again always gives me something new to try.

Quite fancy the 3 brews idea 1:1, 1:2, 1:3 for comparison, and handily the machine is on so now could be a good time to try it!

Edit Post Experiment:

Tried 2 pulls of 18g in 18g out/36g out in 30 secs - (amazed how I got the grind pretty much spot on for these but still....)

1:1 - so much thicker texture, deep crema, syrup mouthfeel, gooey sweetness, slightly nutty taste

1:2 - thinner, sickly sweeter, more fruity taste coming through at the end of the sip

Slightly preferred the 1:1 especially with the thicker texture and more rounded sweetness (rather than sugary if that makes any sense?) than the other, so am going to try 1:1.5 later and see if that strikes a happy medium. Then on to milk I guess and that will be the end of the beans and off to try Italian Blend and start all over again. Happy (buzzing) days


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

All those you mention are in the ristretto range ..

Why not try a couple ristretto, normale and lungo


----------



## Bigpikle (Oct 14, 2014)

yep - that would seem like a good next step. I guess 16g/48g would be an obvious next step and time for a bigger mug!

Do people tend to land on a brew ratio that suits their tastes and then stay fairly close to that with different beans, or do people vary their ratios widely with different beans typically?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I use a brew ratio as a set off point , then adjust based on what I taste and my personal preferences .

If an extraction isn't sweet or balanced enough at x ratio then change it.

As said before not all coffee will benefit from the same ratio and or brew temperature..we all taste things differently and have different preferences.

Some prefer the mouthfeel of a ristretto style shot , that you may loose with a shot at the normale/lingo end.

Roast level of a bean may also change your brew ratio and ultimately how much or little coffee you are extracting into your brew .


----------



## Ferdy (Jun 9, 2014)

What kind of pour time should I be looking at from a 18g ristretto? I read that often you need to tighten the grind a little to get around 25 - 30 secs?

My last pour was done in 21 secs, I know its all down to taste but is that a little too quick?


----------



## Bigpikle (Oct 14, 2014)

Ferdy - my guess is that 21g is a little too short. IME those last 5-8 secs will see a faster pour and if you'd run that to 30 secs you'd have a 40-50% more coffee coming through. When I pulled a 18g ristretto yesterday I saw only about 8-9g after 20 secs and thought I'd really over done it with the grind, but it doubled in those last few seconds.

Mr Boots - pulled a cracking 1:3 lungo this morning and was surprised how much I enjoyed the different drink. Slightly coarser grind and I got to 52g in 31 secs, so could even go a little further. Its been interesting to experiment with different grinds with these beans and see what happens. They're just about finished now so I guess it means I have to start experimenting again. Then off to Coffee Compass....

Thanks for the ideas about what to try. Next will be time to add milk into the equation. I'm interested to find out what difference adding a 1:1 or 1:3 to milk makes?


----------



## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

An interesting aside - we rarely pull anything higher than 50% in our shop. I've had the odd coffee from Nude that we've dialled in at 19/28, but it's definitely sacrificed some complexity for syrupy sweetness.

Max, down the road at Colonna and Smalls, hasn't pulled much above 50% for a couple of years now.

JP


----------



## Bigpikle (Oct 14, 2014)

I dont think I have had anything over 50% for a long time, and only did it as part of the experiment, but it was quite a nice drink for when I wanted more than a quick sip and gone!

Tonight I tried a 1:3 lungo with steamed milk and really enjoyed that as well, perhaps more than a normale and milk. Definitely going to keep experimenting, although I dont think a lungo is going to become my regular tipple.

Sorry for the regular updates on every step, but I thought it might be useful for others getting into all this as well in future.


----------



## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

> .....but I thought it might be useful for others getting into all this as well in future.


It already is and I don't have my setup yet


----------



## Ferdy (Jun 9, 2014)

Thanks for the advice Bigpikle!

I adjusted the grind and pulled a 33sec shot at 1:1. Thought I had choked the machine at first but really started to pull away at the 20 sec mark - just like yours.

The result was the best shot I've ever tasted! Full bodied, sweet and a hint of nuttiness.

Waiting for the machine to settle and I'll try another now.


----------



## Bigpikle (Oct 14, 2014)

Ferdy - its been an interesting learning process trying all the suggestions made here and learning about how the machine works and the different flavours.

Why not try what I did the other day and adjust the grind to try back to back 1:3, 1:2, 1:1 shots and experience the difference. I loved the 1:1 and then had the 1:3 which was amazing for a completely different reason.

Its a fun old journey once you get started!


----------

