# EK43 Doughnuts



## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

The EK seems to have highlighted a small issue with my technique, using a bottomless PF I'm getting slight doughnut extractions on my pulls where you can see the outside 2-3mm starts to extract 0.5-1s before the rest of the puck.

I use 3-4 different beans a day, mainly medium roast but with the odd darker roast - grinding between 1.7 and 3.0 on the 3FE dial.

I've tried changing quite a few different things to correct it but can't seem to nail down the cause, I'm going to buy a new tamper as I suspect that might be the problem or at least contributing to things - I've currently got a 58.4mm flat motta tamper and looking to get either a Torr or Pergtamp.

Have also got a wine measure and flour sifter on order to give those a try.

other things I've tried

1. Light and heavy pressure on tamping - I generally tamp what I'd consider to be medium as too light seems to give me significantly more channeling

2. dosing into the HG-1 tumbler

3. dosing directly into the PF using a funnel

4. using a whisk

5. tapping the side of the PF

6. tapping the PF flat on the counter

7. using a chinese distribution tool

And all combinations with/without the above.

Strangely I think the HG-1 tumbler + distribution tool seems to give the least doughnuts, even though the tumbler clearly leaves a mound of grinds in the centre of the PF (and I think the disto tool overly compacts in the center as a result), however performance is intermittent.

The resulting shot is still perfectly drinkable, however I notice more clarity in the cup when I've got it right.

any other thoughts, tips or advice please?

Cheers

Pho


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Could be that a bigger tamper will fix this but just to rule out a couple if other things his much are you dosing and into what baskets. Could be a headspace issue on the puck. Could be that you are removing the tamper too quickly which is breaking the edge seal on the puck. Maybe post a closeup pic of your prepped puck? What machine and shower screen are you using?

It may not actually be an issue if its only 1s but there maybe some things that could cause this not

For me ims shower screens on e61 caused extraction to start on the outside and sometimes result in a tripod pour.

For distribution then it could be that the centre is loaded up more than the rest of the basket try a motion similar to the perger holdswirl to get the grounds moved to the outside of the basket. I presume you have a dosing funnel? That said a couple of small hand taps should do the same job really.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Thanks Xpenno.

I'm dosing 20g into a 20g VST basket, not noticing and seal effects when withdrawing the tamper, I tend to do so fairly slowly and carefully.

using QM Verona with IMS comp 200 µm screen - these do have central areas with no holes in them but didn't have an issue before when using my HG-1 using 18g dose in 18g basket.

have tried a dosing funnel, using a printed one from whiteyj so that shouldn't leave a ring inside the PF, will give holdswirl a go but I'm getting a good even level distribution so suspect that's not an issue.

will take a few photo's a post back.

thanks

Pho


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Rave decaf blend - 3FE dial 2.3 - dosing funnel, no whisk, holdswirl, pastry brush to sweep grinds & level off, tamp on worktop, medium pressure tamp

Before tamping









After tamping









Shot starts on the edge, grows to 3mm, then the center seems to come in at once - this is the very 1st ms of the coffee appearing


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Foundry Santa Maria de Lourdes Nicaragua Beans - 3FE dial 2.2, ground into HG1 tumbler, whisked in tumbler, tapped on worktop, Chinese distribution tool to level off.

Before tamping, after using the distribution tool, the HG1 tumbler leaves a large central mound of grinds about 25mm wide









After tamping









Just before the central area comes in, this is the largest the doughnut gets on any pull, usually it's smaller though.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Do the penny on the dry puck test to see what your head room is like. When I was getting donuts it was because there wasn't enough room for the water to gather above the puck so it got pushed straight into the puck from the shower screen.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

It might not be of any help but I've noticed that as I have been grinding coarser the last few days with 20g in a 20g VST, the puck has an impression of the shower screen on it so it's clearly expanding quite a lot whereas generally when grinding finer (similar to your range I think) the puch was usually nice and smooth.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

On the Rave decaf picture I can see a slight gap around your post tamp puck. Water follows path of least resistance .

Try grinding into a flour sifter , then sideways taps to level off and then tamp with a tamper designed specifically for VST basket


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

some good advice thanks all. I've ordered a Pergtamp and sifter, will give the other tips a try tomorrow


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Try dosing 19.5g, I'm not a fan of those ims showers. They are deeper than stock e61 showers which decreases headspace and they have a big deadspot in the middle where no water can flow to the puck. If you add those 2 things together then the edge of the puck will be saturated sooner and pressure applied unevenly over the surface. Get a KVDW shower for e61.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

thanks will give 19.5g a try, agree on the shower screen, was thinking that + the tamper was contributing to things, might look at a new shower screen as well


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

just had a try with 20g dose in a 22g VST, same issue, also swapped back to the stock shower screen which has a much smaller blind spot in the center and no difference.

the puck in the 22g VST now looks like it's swelling more and no SS imprints like with the 20g VST.

35mu IMS SS on order anyway but it's looking like it's more tamper related as I 1st suspected, hopefully it won't take long for the Pergtamp to arrive!


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## "coffee 4/1" (Sep 1, 2014)

Doughnut of death extraction cold portafilter, cold basket,try grind finer, lower dose, or my be try a convex.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Regarding the convex, Matt Perger advises against it. I have a convex Mahlgut which came from Ron but have ordered a flat 58.5mm base for it so will see how that affects things once it arrives. I might try reducing the dose to 18g or 19g in the 20g VST.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Changing the shower screen solved this issue for me ( to a Kees from a IMS )


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Where did you get the Kees screen from? I might try one.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dan1502 said:


> Where did you get the Kees screen from? I might try one.


Origin were doing them a while ago , but i think you had to ask they were not listed on their website

I got mine from here , again an email or call to ask for availability as they were not on the website

http://www.qualitasse.co.uk


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## Split Shot (Sep 24, 2016)

Phobic said:


> 35mu IMS SS on order!


You'll find the design of the 35 has a much smaller 'dead spot' in the centre compared with the 200.

I'd be interested to hear how you get on with it.

Also, are you pre-infusing (at least E61 style wetting) the puck?


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Phobic, have you checked the flow through the screen without a PF in place ? also have you checked the flow from the dispersion nut (umbrella).

On my Verona I find that in both cases the water pulls to a central column , off the nut and from a 200 mu IMS screen.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

don't want to go convex if I can avoid it, will try the Pergtamp & new 35mu SS 1st, then give the Kees a go.

pre-wetting the puck is a good idea, will give that a try.

the flow through the SS does look to be heavier in the central rings, but I do get some on the outside as well, from the nut it seems pretty central.

is the nut adjustable?

I'm still thinking this is the tamper....


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

just tried pre-wetting, even getting the doughnut there! quite a coarse grind for this bean but I think tamper is even more likely now...


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Phobic said:


> don't want to go convex if I can avoid it, will try the Pergtamp & new 35mu SS 1st, then give the Kees a go.
> 
> pre-wetting the puck is a good idea, will give that a try.
> 
> ...


There isn't any adjustment on the nut, short thread on reverse with additional central hole down through the centre,

I did try using a triangular file to improve dispersion (slots around rim ) without any noticeable change / improvement.

I have the flat titanium trapez ? with fine flat edge. I find this perfect with the V S T basket and no suction when removing.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Phobic said:


> just tried pre-wetting, even getting the doughnut there! quite a coarse grind for this bean but I think tamper is even more likely now...


Humour me -

Try grinding so fine you 'almost' choke the machine (even if it takes 50 seconds to hit yield) , does the pour eventually meet in the middle?


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

if you're getting doughnuts, then surely a convex tamper will only make matters worse ??

In my mind the outer edge of the tamped puck is not as dense as the center (if doughnuts are appearing),allowing the water to pass through it easier.

A convex tamper will tamp the center of the puck more, making the problem worse.

You would need a concave tamper to combat the doughnut.

A concave tamper would tamp the outer edge of the puck more than the center, creating an even resistance throughout the puck


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

garydyke1 said:


> Humour me -
> 
> Try grinding so fine you 'almost' choke the machine (even if it takes 50 seconds to hit yield) , does the pour eventually meet in the middle?


I'll give it a go and report back!

You've made me think back to what I'd been doing differently since I got the EK, at the start I was dosing 18g which meant I needed to do it much finer, I don't think I had doughnuts then...

however the reason for going 20g was because I was close to, if not at, the finest grind setting dosing at 18g.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> if you're getting doughnuts, then surely a convex tamper will only make matters worse ??
> 
> In my mind the outer edge of the tamped puck is not as dense as the center (if doughnuts are appearing),allowing the water to pass through it easier.
> 
> ...


Convex tampers certainly do visually 'fix' doughnutting , I've done side by sides very recently , remember the convex will push grinds outwards / \ not just downwards || . They do , however, reduce extraction yield considerably and I'm not sure visual improves equal flavour improvements.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Phobic said:


> I'll give it a go and report back!
> 
> You've made me think back to what I'd been doing differently since I got the EK, at the start I was dosing 18g which meant I needed to do it much finer, I don't think I had doughnuts then...
> 
> however the reason for going 20g was because I was close to, if not at, the finest grind setting dosing at 18g.


If you can't almost choke your machine with 18g in an 18g VST basket there is something wrong


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

just tried with a couple of beans, able to choke the machine 18g > 2g in 70s with a dark roast, before giving up.

other beans give 18g >56g in 50s at max grind setting, some medium roasts are more like 30-40s at max - it's the medium roasts that drove me to go to 20s as that's what I'm drinking more of atm. I must have either miss-remembered the earlier 18g pulls or done something different that I've missed/forgotten.

Still seeing doughnuts with all of these even when the machine is so choked it won't put anything out.....


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

well pergtamp has arrived and no difference, guess it must be the SS, still waiting for for the new 35mu IMS to arrive, hopefully that will fix it.

I might give the HG-1 a try later just to check that still works ok.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Phobic said:


> well pergtamp has arrived and no difference, guess it must be the SS, still waiting for for the new 35mu IMS to arrive, hopefully that will fix it.
> 
> I might give the HG-1 a try later just to check that still works ok.


You should do a shot prep vid as it must be a distribution issue. Maybe that'll show something.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

How is any of this coffee actually tasting btw ?

You can drive yourself mad aiming for espresso porn with the EK43 ( I know I have ) but ultimately how does it taste .

Go to spouts pull some shots , taste them objectively without the visual form the naked pf putting you off.

As before I would change the shower screen too. It helped me out .


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I'll do a shot prep vid though I've just tried the HG-1 @ 18g in an 18g VST using the tumbler and whisk method which I know works and I'm still getting doughnuts.

Shots are tasting ok, but I can't get the clarity I was able to get with the 1st few EK shots I pulled so think somethings not right.

SS is on order but now not sure that's going to fix things


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Following helped me:

- superclean basket (through the dishwasher) - I suspect any coffee oils prevent adhesion at the edges

- no more than 18.7g in a 20g VST - I suspect more headroom above puck => more even pre-infusion. I know the Vesuvius shower screen protrudes lower than most

- firmer tamp again - not leaning on the tamper, just a firm press and polish. I had been tamping at little more than finger pressure.

I have never been able to get completely nut free with a flat tamper but the donut only appeared at the very outside for a fraction of a second with the above regime. With my slightly smaller Reg Barber convex I am completely nut free.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I've just tried this monstrosity, ground direct into the PF with a funnel, then whisked in the PF pushing grounds right to the edge of the PF making a large deep dent in the center, then tamped.









still getting doughnuts, somethings not right?

will upload a vid of the SS & dispersion plate, maybe somethings blocked?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Obnic said:


> Following helped me:
> 
> - superclean basket (through the dishwasher) - I suspect any coffee oils prevent adhesion at the edges
> 
> ...


I've tried 20g in a brand new sparkly clean 22g basket but that didn't help, also tried tamp pressure from extremely hard through to very light with no joy, all with and without pre-wetting (rather than infusion).


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Video would be helpful. EKs are notorious for unsymmetrical pours - eg. tripods. That said, noticeable donut pours shouldn't happen. Does your machine permit pre-infusion? I go anything from 6-12secs until a ring begins to form at the outer edge of the basket (always use a naked). Once that appears, I kick in full pressure via releasing the lever. Without good pre-infusion, I get very uneven pours. With it, they are consistent.

I give the dose a good shake in the HG blind tumbler to ensure even distribution of fines. After removing the plug, then use a light brush to move the grinds around before removing the tumbler and tapping the portafilter to settle the grinds before tamping. Doing this can increase extraction yield by up to one percent alone.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

I generally get good pours with an IMS, 20g in 20g VST, no pre-infusion as such (stepped ramp up to 6 bar in 1s intervals from 2 bar). I dose into a metal jug, give it a quick shake then use a sifter then either tamp after a sideways shake of the PF or use the distribution tool then tamp. My tamper is convex though (flat part awaited but taking forever). Even when I get the puck pressing agaist the screen the pour seems to be ok. I am going to try an 8.5mm gasket though as the handle's a bit far around anyway.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Thanks guys, I don't have pre-infusion so will pre-wet.

I'll get a video sorted out, I'll go back to using the blind tumber and whisk method but will add in a brush to level it out in the PF.

I've just taken out and cleaned the dispersion screen with a needle, it looked fine, I could see through 1 side to the other and blow through easily so not blocked.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Phobic said:


> Thanks guys, I don't have pre-infusion so will pre-wet.
> 
> I'll get a video sorted out, I'll go back to using the blind tumber and whisk method but will add in a brush to level it out in the PF.
> 
> I've just taken out and cleaned the dispersion screen with a needle, it looked fine, I could see through 1 side to the other and blow through easily so not blocked.


Id give the pre wetting a miss , what pressure are you extracting at


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Agree with Boots - pre-wetting won't replace pre-infusion.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

What does the water fall pattern look like from the group


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

9 bar pressure


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

That shower screen has a dead spot in itself


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Quite a quick flow, have you measured the ml/min?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

garydyke1 said:


> That shower screen has a dead spot in itself


yeah it does, not ideal, another IMS due any day that has a smaller dead spot, not sure whey they don't have central holes TBH....

however not had the doughnuts until recently - I put it down to the EK as I seem to notice them when I got it, however I've tried a couple of shots with the HG-1 and still getting them, might need to try a few other beans with it as well.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Dylan said:


> Quite a quick flow, have you measured the ml/min?


no but I will in the morning, just had a quick search and not sure what ideal is, I guess pressure and gicleur size will impact, does the design of the machine also make a difference?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

about 200-220 ml over 20 seconds with a gicleaur that doesn't really restrict the flow too much. This is what I got on my VBM with a 1.5mm gic.

I just fitted a .5mm gic to my VBM coming from a 1.5mm and the flow rate is much reduced (haven't measured it), there is nearly 4 bar of back pressure from the gic, whole thing is much easier to manage now and my consistency is way up. Flushing takes an age tho, cant win em all.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Stock jet on the Verona with the EK is not a match made in heaven. Either turn your pump down or fit a 0.5mm jet. Also get the kvdw shower screen, it rules.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Check the size of the thread, but this is the cheapest place I found a .5 gic: http://www.giveitthebeans.co.uk/nozzle-m6x1-hole-o-0-5-mm-for-brew-group


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Out of interest where does one buy a KVDW shower screen? do you have to contact a dealer directly?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dylan said:


> Out of interest where does one buy a KVDW shower screen? do you have to contact a dealer directly?


http://www.qualitasse.co.uk

Email em , it's not listed on their site . I think origin were selling em too ; also not listed on site .


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## "coffee 4/1" (Sep 1, 2014)

Was hoping to see a "EKspesso" extraction, apparently not yet.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

\ said:


> Was hoping to see a "EKspesso" extraction, apparently not yet.


Done ever use that word again ...


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Thanks everyone, I had been planning on going to 6bar at some point, haven't looked into this in detail yet or the size of jet needed but will a .5 drop me down to 6 bar?

from memory I seem to think there are 2 jets in the Verona, can't find a parts diagram for the verona but is part number 51 on the Vetrano the gicleur to swap out?

https://espressodolce.ca/user_manuals/QuickMILL/QuickMILL-Vetrano-Model-0995.pdf

not sure if you can just turn the pump down or not, don't remember reading anything about that anywhere, does anyone know if it's possible?

will check out the KVDW if the new IMS doesn't work out.

many thanks!


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## "coffee 4/1" (Sep 1, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Done ever use that word again ...


Reason, tell me more.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Phobic said:


> Thanks everyone, I had been planning on going to 6bar at some point, haven't looked into this in detail yet or the size of jet needed but will a .5 drop me down to 6 bar?
> 
> from memory I seem to think there are 2 jets in the Verona, can't find a parts diagram for the verona but is part number 51 on the Vetrano the gicleur to swap out?
> 
> ...


Reducing the size of the gic does not reduce overall pressure as it still builds at the puck. The smaller gic increases the time it takes to get up to 9 bar however.

Pressure is controlled by the OPV, not the pump.

The part you are looking at on that diagram is probably a restrictor to limit the flow of the HX system and stop the group head overheating. The Gic you want should be inside the e61 mushroom.

edit: I cant find a proper parts diagram for the verona but if you look at this parts diagram:










Then is it part 524467 (top left)


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain @Dylan that makes a lot more sense, I couldn't get my head around how this was going to give 6bar









much clearer now.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

here's some shot prep videos, be gentle, strange how having a camera on your effects things but hopefully you'll get the general idea









*Sieve Method - *I've only just starting doing this and need a bit of practice, I also don't like the sieve I'm using, it's too messy and slow, I have another on order. Needs some work but I think this gives the best results in the cup so far. I don't usually flick the grinds everywhere!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Sieve Method - Why don't you clip the sieve onto the EK with the bag holder and pump the sieve handle as its grinding, the action will dislodge any retention in the EK. Aim for a central mound from a height , then a couple of side ways shakes and taps will level the bed ready for the OCD tool and tamping .

Ill take some pics of how I do it later


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Whisk Method - this has never done anything for me , other than scratch the inside of the VST basket. Never improved flavour or extraction yield all things even .


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

garydyke1 said:


> Sieve Method - Why don't you clip the sieve onto the EK with the bag holder and pump the sieve handle as its grinding, the action will dislodge any retention in the EK. Aim for a central mound from a height , then a couple of side ways shakes and taps will level the bed ready for the OCD tool and tamping .
> 
> Ill take some pics of how I do it later


Thanks Gary, good tip on pumping the sieve while on the EK.

I thought using the OCD tool wasn't ideal, have been trying to do it without, is it better to use it from a consistency perspective? I do like it myself as it's a fast way to get a flat bed which makes tamping easier/quicker.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

garydyke1 said:


> Whisk Method - this has never done anything for me , other than scratch the inside of the VST basket. Never improved flavour or extraction yield all things even .


I don't like it and don't use it, have just included it to show that with all methods I'm getting doughnuts - I think this method is almost certain to make sure that the grounds are right to the edge of the PF which is the main reason for including it.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Dylan said:


> about 200-220 ml over 20 seconds with a gicleaur that doesn't really restrict the flow too much. This is what I got on my VBM with a 1.5mm gic.


Getting about 195g in 20s so seems about right - sample size of 1


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Yup, thats about right for a larger gic. I Just tested mine now it has a .5mm gic and I only get 100ml or so over 20s.

Ironically I went through an entire process of replacing a pump a while back that was only delivering about 60-100ml over this time as I thought it was a problem, now I have gone back to it by changing the gic.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

I don't like clipping the sifter to the EK though I know Gary does it differently. I find the 3d printed portfilter holder very useful and although it doesn't have a rest for the handle to keep it level I find two rubber tamping mats are the perfect height. The portafilter is then held level with the funnel fitted on top and the mini sifter rests perfectly on top. So I grind into a small metal jug, sometimes give it a quick shake then chuck the grinds into the sifter which is resting on top of the funnel before sifting away. Given that I have to brush the retained grinds from the sifter (tapping doesn't work for me) I don't have enough hands to do this by the grinder. Of course it's all personal preference.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Straight from the sieve . Mound to make a Mythos blush


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

A little shimmy shake and gravity fills in the gaps . Nice and level


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Pre tamp


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Pergtamped


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

A few seconds before cutting the shot . Dead spots so what it tasted badass


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Spot on except for the thumb print


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Spot on except for the thumb print


Thumb print?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Honestly , go back to spouts for some shots . Drink and evaluate on the cup in front of you , not the cup that might be if it was espresso porn . If not tasty use the naked to diagnose but don't aim for picture perfect with an ek, it's not worth it .

Constructive advice - change jet , drop pressure. , change shower screen . All will allow a coarser grind , easier more even extractions . Even then tho evaluate what's in the cup for what it is , not for how it looks coming out .

I give you this advice from pulling a ton of shots on the ek, and probably being where you are now .

Coming to this conclusion saved my sanity in the long run and made for better coffee.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

This ^


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

garydyke1 said:


> Straight from the sieve . Mound to make a Mythos blush


Thanks Gary, it looks like I'm maybe over thinking it a bit.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Honestly , go back to spouts for some shots . Drink and evaluate on the cup in front of you , not the cup that might be if it was espresso porn . If not tasty use the naked to diagnose but don't aim for picture perfect with an ek, it's not worth it .
> 
> Constructive advice - change jet , drop pressure. , change shower screen . All will allow a coarser grind , easier more even extractions . Even then tho evaluate what's in the cup for what it is , not for how it looks coming out .
> 
> ...


Thanks, solid advice. I do find I'm in danger of second guessing myself at times and imagining things, I think that comes from doing something in isolation with a limited frame of reference.

new jet and SS already on order, plus I've started looking into moving to 6bar, unless I'm crazy this looks like it might be stupidly simple to do on the Verona.

appreciate the advice, I'll take it on board and act on it


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I say just go for it and whack an Eric's on there as well, more to worry about the better, why else are you on this forum eh!


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I thought Eric's was more used in HX machines? the Verona is a DB with separate PIDs for each boiler, thought the thermal stability was meant to be pretty good.

any benefit from measuring actual group head temp? I never need much of an excuse to buy things but not sure how I'd use it


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Phobic said:


> I thought Eric's was more used in HX machines? the Verona is a DB with separate PIDs for each boiler, thought the thermal stability was meant to be pretty good.
> 
> any benefit from measuring actual group head temp? I never need much of an excuse to buy things but not sure how I'd use it


Nope, none at all, unless you dont trust your boiler PID....


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Does shower screen really make all that much difference? Like, an ims one over the Vesuvius stock one?

I was considering it, but found a lot of people seemed to think it was snake oil.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Dylan said:


> Nope, none at all, unless you dont trust your boiler PID....


fair enough, I'll add it to the "to buy gadgets list" then


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Phobic said:


> fair enough, I'll add it to the "to buy gadgets list" then


A refractometer tho, now surely you need one of those? I mean you can't own an EK and not own a refractometer can you?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

UbiquitousPhoton said:


> Does shower screen really make all that much difference? Like, an ims one over the Vesuvius stock one?
> 
> I was considering it, but found a lot of people seemed to think it was snake oil.


I'm not familiar with the Vesuvius SS but there's a lot of variation in SS's out there. The way they distribute the water matters, and the fineness of the mesh which will stop more particles going back up into the group head.

interesting read here about IMS versus KVDW on Spencer's page where you can see the difference in the SS holes between the 2

http://grindscience.com/2016/03/kees-van-der-westen-e61-group-screen-upgrade/


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Dylan said:


> A refractometer tho, now surely you need one of those? I mean you can't own an EK and not own a refractometer can you?


"need" is a subjective word









http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?33820&p=447946#post447946


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dylan said:


> A refractometer tho, now surely you need one of those? I mean you can't own an EK and not own a refractometer can you?


Why would you need a refractometer any more, or less, with an EK compared to any other grinder?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Why would you need a refractometer any more, or less, with an EK compared to any other grinder?


I think he's trying to excite me with shiny objects


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Phobic said:


> I'm not familiar with the Vesuvius SS but there's a lot of variation in SS's out there. The way they distribute the water matters, and the fineness of the mesh which will stop more particles going back up into the group head.
> 
> interesting read here about IMS versus KVDW on Spencer's page where you can see to difference in the SS holes between the 2
> 
> http://grindscience.com/2016/03/kees-van-der-westen-e61-group-screen-upgrade/


But does it matter?

Has anyone done any VST refractometering all else remaining the same?

If the water leaving the SS isn't coming out too fast it should build up in the headspace above the puck and then ultimately make very little difference to the extraction.

I would be happy to see any evidence that proves they make more of a difference than this, but my guess is that they do not.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

MWJB said:


> Why would you need a refractometer any more, or less, with an EK compared to any other grinder?


Yea as phobic clocked, I'm just playing around, there was no logic to my post.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dylan said:
 

> But does it matter?
> 
> Has anyone done any VST refractometering all else remaining the same?
> 
> ...


There £15 quid .. with a Kees logo on em . In the grand scheme of things that are shiny and snake oil they are pretty cheap . And shiny ....


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> There £15 quid .. with a Kees logo on em . In the grand scheme of things that are shiny and snake oil they are pretty cheap . And shiny ....


Ohhh £15.

I might buy one.

But it might be clever marketing by Kees to get one on my machine so every time I look at the underside of the group (regularly, obvs) I get tempted to blow 8k (10k?) on a Speedster... clever


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

mmm shiny


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I've been doing a bit more investigating and I think these doughnuts look to be a feature of quick mill machines....lots of different models all seem to do the same thing.

so after all that fiddling & 2nd guessing it's most likely not a problem as people have already concluded!






I won't bother to play around and tweak things to get a more even distribution (honest)


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Lol, despite the above I have high hopes your .5mm gic will help, especially if a 1.5 comes as standard.

edit: also just realised if the Verona is a DB why does it have a secondary gic-style thing in the pipe exiting the boiler as per post #54 ... do you need to restrict the flow of a DB pipe system for some reason? Maybe a Q for @DaveC


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Watched the first few vids... Is that what you're calling a doughnut? If that's a doughnut then pretty much all of my shots are doughnuts too!


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

fluffles said:


> Watched the first few vids... Is that what you're calling a doughnut? If that's a doughnut then pretty much all of my shots are doughnuts too!


I'm with you on this, if you are not getting dead spots in the centre and everything forms over the entire basket at the same time then you are good.

The Verona with stock jet has a reasonably fast pressure ramp and this will exaggerate anything like this. If your ek pours are anything like those clips then you are killing it. Just focus on the brew recipe and taste and know you are doing a good job.

The Verona with ek was quite a challenge, that's how I ended up coming up with the sifter idea. It helped loads with controlling the flow at high pressure. It's less important at lower pressure and flow. As the Verona is rotary you should be able to adjust pressure at the pump by lowering the pump speed. This should improve your ek shots and help achieve higher extractions.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

ok, so I'm over thinking things, my EK pulls on the Verona are just like this....

reassuring feedback thanks, it seems I've actually learnt stuff by reading posts on here!

I can turn the pressure down easily on the Verona, plan doing it in the morning, Dave's already suggested the best way to do it.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> http://www.qualitasse.co.uk
> 
> Email em , it's not listed on their site . I think origin were selling em too ; also not listed on site .


Just ordered a KVDW SS from Qualitasse, I had a chat with Richard, he said that he's just had a sudden rush of orders for them, "someone must have been talking about them on a forum"









£12.49 + VAT inc delivery.

he's got some left and will drop me a message to let me know how many.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Just talked to Richard again at Qualitasse, he's got 3 left.

FYI I'd also given Origin a ring as they're down as UK distributors, however still waiting for their technical person to call back as others didn't know if they had them or not.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Yes, between my first email and his reply he said bizarrely he'd just had another enquiry so I explained. I have one coming too.


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## Split Shot (Sep 24, 2016)

@Phobic did you ever get the chance to trial the IMS 35 um SS?

It'd be interesting to see some comparison of this against the KVDW if you end having both in your possession?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

@Split Shot it's not arrived yet, I ordered it from Jens on ebay so it's coming from Portugal.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222229945098?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Nice chaps down at Qualitasse, highly recommend 'em for all your KVDW needs.

Bit confused by their sudden popularity, but...


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Apparently mine has arrived so I'll get to try it later or tomorrow morning.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

mine landed, mmm shiny.

it's changed the shot pull, it fills from outside to middle, I'll get around to posting a video at some point.

I did wonder if it was the design of the quickmill dispersion plate which was partly causing it as the central hole into the SS is feed from 2 holes which are at 90 degrees to the main feed from the group head. so I took the dispersion plate out to see if that made any difference, and it doesn't.

given how good the coffee is tasting right now I suspect this isn't a problem


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