# Acidity problems



## Oliver (Jan 1, 2016)

I have found a preground supermarket coffee I really like; it's rich, smooth and fragrant - but in the interests of expanding my pallette, from time to time I experiment with other coffees. I cannot however seem to find a coffee that isn't an acidic mess with very little aroma.

i have historically used a pour over method with 90'c water, but recently inherited a fairly low-end espresso machine (Gaggia Cubika). I had hoped I'd find myself suddenly able to choose all manner of great coffees and drink them with gusto - far from it. All but my trusty supermarket blend (M&S espresso) hits first with massive acidity and has so far not followed up with much I like by way of flavour.

ive tried a variety of beans from my local roasters, as well as some pricier ground coffees from small producers - few have been drinkable. I rarely get an espresso from the high street that tastes so acidic, so what am I doing wrong? Am I just destined to only enjoy this M&S blend and little else? I do like Nero espresso, and will happily drink americanos from Costa. I drink my coffee black and with no sweetener. I will also add that I am quite discerning in my taste for other consumables too!

thanks in advance.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Supermarket coffee probably only tasts OK because it's so bland and has all the life sucked out of it by age. As for local roasters depends on how good they are.

if you want non acidic drink go for a darker roasted bean, avoid the very light roasts, ensure the espresso machine is hot enough as well (many low end machines are not), I have little interest in low end stuff, but I am sure someone will come along with advice for the cube.

Sumatrans are very low acidity and Brazilians on the darker side are not too bad...try those 2 for now and you can blend them together 50/50....use one of the online roasters on here, but one that roasts darker, many roast very very light.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

It's tricky to chop & change coffees without making regular grind adjustments. It maybe that your preferred preground coffee is well degassed, maybe on the darker side, both these things make it easy to extract. Coffee that is fresher out of the roaster, or lighter in roast will need a finer grind to get to a pleasing flavour balance.

If you are having all your coffee preground, try pulling the acidic coffees as longer drinks, they will be weaker, but hopefully less acidic.

In short, it's not the coffee itself, it's the difficulties in normalising the cups from the different beans via grind & shot length where the problem lies.

If you weigh the coffee you put into the portafilter basket (to 0.1g) and weigh the shot as it pours, describe the taste & maybe we can offer advice?

Getting a grinder, if you don't have one already, will be a big plus...even if it seems a big outlay compared to a gifted machine.


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## PreCoffeeCantankerousness (Dec 14, 2014)

Hi,

I'm not at all a fan of the bright/acidic espressos.

Grinding finer will take off some of the edge. Small adjustments can make a big difference.

If your water temperature coming out is too low it can be terrible - get a thermometer and stick it in the coffee that comes out. I don't know your machine but leaving mine on and flushing water through helps bring everything up to temp.

Preheat your cups.

I'm currently drinking Has Bean

El Salvador

Finca Santa Petrona

Washed

Red Bourbon

Its milk chocolate, caramel, and very smooth. I'm drinking it as I type.


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## Oliver (Jan 1, 2016)

Thanks for your feedback. I will add that the acidity I describe is immediate, it's acrid and not sharp like citrus or berries - it takes over the whole palette, rather than being a part of a deep taste. I have experienced the same sensation/taste with a number of coffees, prepared in a number of different ways. It's for both these reasons that I was hoping people might chip in with a simple explanation that explained it. Certainly my local roaster/shop grinds coffee for espresso a heck of a lot more coarse than Lavazza or my M&S - this may explain the fact it's more guilty of the above.

im not quite in the market for a nice grinder yet (the community seems keen to share its disappointment with almost all grinders below about £350!), especially as I am still able to knock up a coffee I am genuinely excited to drink. I will however experiment with grind sizes as best I can, and get a nice set of scales - something I've realised is a must for good pour-over.

I will also try the coffees suggested - I hope I'm not alone in enjoying the M&S espresso blend too!


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Hi Oliver, usually if somebody is getting the sensation that the coffee is very acidic then it's because it's under extracted.

That's hard to diagnose if we don't know what you're doing in terms of a routine and "recipe" for each shot and add in that different equipment behaves differently.

To help conversation and getting assistance if we encounter a problem I measure coffee grounds in, weight of liquid coffee out and have an interest in how long it takes to get that weight out after you press the button to start extraction with your machine.

Under extraction could also be related to the temperature of your machine or water (too cold and your coffee would suffer - do you turn your machine on and let it warm up with the portafilter and basket in the machine for 20 - 30 minutes before your first shot?

You can get a used grinder like a Mazzer Super Jolly for around £200 and that would be very capable and last well into whatever machines you decided to buy next (if the coffee bug really bites you) and it would make it much easier than buying stuff that's already ground.

Sometimes if I'm grinding espresso at home I'll change the setting (grinding coarser or finer) multiple times in a day, as it'll vary depending on temperature in the room, humidity, position of the stars and other things I haven't worked out.

With coffee that's already ground you have no option but the way it's already done. Each machine could favour a slightly different grind and each person have a preference with the same coffee and machine. Add that to the fact that as soon as you grind coffee it starts to release all the gases and exciting flavours and you might start to get an idea why very few regular members here would even consider having coffee that's already ground and sat on a shelf for who knows how long.

Anyway, I'm not trying to give you a sales pitch just some of my thinking and partially reiterating what others said. I'm mainly trying to give you a picture of some of the complexity of making good coffee


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## paul whu (Sep 25, 2014)

I'll wager the temperature is way too low and the speciality beans aren't degassed.


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## Oliver (Jan 1, 2016)

Certainly, underextraction seems to be a definite issue; the crema is pale and my shot is rarely complete in any more than 15 seconds from switching to end. I have taken on board the comments about heat - I now have put a smart socket on my machine, so I can get the ball rolling from my phone!

The degassing point also resonates. I have been looking through the forum, and saw some shared experiences of timeframes from green-bean to cup, and on more than one occasion I have been proudly informed the coffee I am buying was 'roasted only yesterday' - it can take a week or so for me to finish a bag, but I am sure I more often rush home, make a drink, taste that horrible acid and then stick the bag at the back of the cupboard, occasionally mixing a bit of it in with whatever I am enjoying at the time (often the aforementioned pre-ground) - or I wait for someone to demand a white coffee, then serve it to them.

What scared me most was that I was reasonably often served similarly sour drinks in a variety of cafés; some professing to be something special - whilst I know I will not necessarily like every coffee in the universe, my days were darkened by the possibility I was unable to love coffee. I am now realising that not every server / establishment is going to take as much care or joy in ensuring what's in my cup is the best it can be.

again, thanks each of you for your input. I'm going to save for a Mazzer.


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## Oliver (Jan 1, 2016)

It's been a while so forgive me; but I finally got around to ordering some of that Finca Santa Petrona that you mentioned... and it's sour and unpleasant just like the aforementioned. I'm using the pour-over method with 92° water and plenty degassing time. As soon as its in my mouth, before I've even had the chance to open my nose up, I'm bombarded with acid - at that stage I could have lemon water in my mouth. That is followed by bitterness - a characteristic of the coffee, and only after that do I get any fragrance.

I've found yet another chain that does a coffee I enjoy (coffee #1), and another fresh 'gourmet' coffee I find pretty unpleasant. I'm going to buy a bag of the house coffee they serve at coffee #1 (it's exactly what they pull in store) and see if it's my prep that's the problem.

i can make a tasty coffee with Lavazza Rosso, M&S espresso and Taylor's Hot Lava Java without any of the above complaint, so I am resigning myself further towards accepting that I may never be a coffee gourmand


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

@Oliver can you please describe your pourover method - brewer, brew time (total & any separate bloom time), coffee weight to 0.1, grind setting, brew water weight to 1g.

It sounds like you aren't grinding fine enough, or your brew is running too fast.

92C water in the kettle at pour is on the cool side, you might only be early 80's in the brewer itself. Brew with water either boiling or just off the boil.

Coffee is a bunch of acids in hot water...counter-intuitively if you get enough of these acids (& other components) out during brewing, the coffee will be balanced, but if you don't get enough it will be more acidic. The coffees you are getting on with are likely to extract more easily & if a darker roast, will mask some of that acidic taste at low extractions.

You don't have to be a gourmand, or connoisseur...you just have to be able to identify & repeatably make, coffee that tastes nice. It shouldn't have to be an acquired taste, or something you have to 'get' after listening to a bunch of spiel about altitude, soil etc. Is it nice, neutral or nasty?


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Have you read Scott Rao's blog entry on pour-over technique? He is very particular about depth of bed and not disturbing the bed during extraction so that it rises up the edge of the filter cone. He's aiming to get water to flow evenly through the whole bed.

Don't give up. Coffee can be very frustrating. It does get better though if you hammer out every part of your technique.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Do you have scales? I'd recommend weighing out 11g of the coffee into a cup. Boil kettle and immediately pour 180ml over the coffee. Wait 4/5 mins then very gently stir the surface to sink any floating grinds. Wait another 15mins then taste with a teaspoon. See what you think of the flavour, acidity and sweetness.

The problem with pourover is if you don't do it well it can taste as you describe. The above method should allow you to judge whether you like the coffee without method getting in the way.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Step21 said:


> Do you have scales? I'd recommend weighing out 11g of the coffee into a cup. Boil kettle and immediately pour 180ml over the coffee. Wait 4/5 mins then very gently stir the surface to sink any floating grinds. Wait another 15mins then taste with a teaspoon. See what you think of the flavour, acidity and sweetness.
> 
> The problem with pourover is if you don't do it well it can taste as you describe. The above method should allow you to judge whether you like the coffee without method getting in the way.


I'd not bother with the cupping. Pourover will let you hit a wider range of extractions and also do it more consistently. We just need to know how Oliver is approaching this, a few details and within a handful of careful brews, with details, we should be in the ball park.


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## gcogger (May 18, 2013)

I'd say it's worth trying a darker roast before giving up - maybe one of the Coffee Compass Mahogany roasts. When I started down this path, I certainly found that the flavour of 'proper' coffee was nothing like the coffee I was used to drinking before, and I still find most medium (or lower) roasts to be dull or unpleasant (they're not bad, they just don't suit my taste).


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

gcogger said:


> ...and I still find most medium (or lower) roasts to be dull or unpleasant (they're not bad, they just don't suit my taste).


Dull or unpleasant sounds pretty "bad" to me, hard to imagine who's taste they would suit . Dull is certainly not my experience of medium/light roasts for drip, they're usually sweet & juicy. Unless the coffee is significantly defective (possible, but unlikely) it should taste at least "nice" in a ball park drip brew, it's just a question of altering Oliver's target for lighter roasts, compared to his current preference (which he seems to have no need to change,, therefore can revisit at will).


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## gcogger (May 18, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Dull or unpleasant sounds pretty "bad" to me, hard to imagine who's taste they would suit .


Someone to whom they taste neither dull nor unpleasant, perhaps







People respond differently to the same flavours...



MWJB said:


> Dull is certainly not my experience of medium/light roasts for drip, they're usually sweet & juicy. Unless the coffee is significantly defective (possible, but unlikely) it should taste at least "nice" in a ball park drip brew, it's just a question of altering Oliver's target for lighter roasts, compared to his current preference (which he seems to have no need to change,, therefore can revisit at will).


It's possible that he simply doesn't like the (relatively) lighter roasts typical of most high quality suppliers. After all, everyone has their own preferences, and I believe a darker roast would be closer to what he's accustomed to. It may not help, but I'd say it's at least worth a try.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

If the roasts don't taste nice, what makes them high quality, what makes people buy them & spend more per bag on them.

I brew all kinds of coffee for my family & work colleagues, they can't always tell high quality from reasonable quality, but they all like "nice" and I've never heard anyone comment on liking/disliking a certain roast level...only people who make coffee, have an interest in it & look at the whole roasted beans do that, or have that bias.

It sounds far more like the coffee is being under-extracted, which is easily fixed. Don't forget we actually make the drink, the beans are just potential until we do that, if we make the drink in a way that doesn't present it well, that's down to us, we can adapt what we do.

Brew the beans you have, don't be a slave to them...or just stick to what is less hassle, but it seems a shame to miss out on variety if you're going to go to the trouble of brewing your own coffee to start with.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

I think that there is confusion over what "acidity" in coffee means. It seems to vary.

Coffee however brewed at whatever roast level is as far as i can tell just a combination of a lot of acids - caffeic acid plus a whole host of other acids. When extracted well they taste sweet and balanced.

From the way the OP puts it, it sounds like he is getting sour or under extracted coffee from his machine.

I tend to view acidity (probably wrongly) as the "fruitiness" exhibited by the coffee - not associated with sourness or bitterness. Pleasant acidity to me has pleasing sweetness and fruit flavour, which is more often present in lighter roasts. I find "dull" in this sense a very odd and wrong descriptor. I would associate "dull" coffee as the kind of bland coffee served by coffee chains in that it has no significant flavours other than some bland caramels.

I get that some people just don't like their coffee to taste fruity and prefer chocolates/caramels and perhaps even some roasty type flavours. Fair enough. We like what we like. But "dull"?

Someone earlier referred to Sumatran coffee having low acidity. Depends on what we mean. I've got one right now which displays significant sweet red apple fruit. I'd say it had sweet juicy acidity. It's all very confusing....


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## gcogger (May 18, 2013)

Step21 said:


> I think that there is confusion over what "acidity" in coffee means. It seems to vary.
> 
> Coffee however brewed at whatever roast level is as far as i can tell just a combination of a lot of acids - caffeic acid plus a whole host of other acids. When extracted well they taste sweet and balanced.
> 
> ...


I think you've hit the nail on the head, that flavour descriptions can mean different things to different people. In fact, the same flavours can present differently to different people (as I've seen many times when comparing taste notes with my wife!).

I can see how my description of 'dull' coffee could have been misleading - in this context I was talking about coffee which has all of the flavours that I don't care for and none of the ones that I do







That makes the coffee 'dull' to me, as in 'uninteresting' - sorry, it was a poorly chosen word! I was trying to get across that this is an enormously subjective area. People like different things and just because something is unpleasant to me doesn't make it bad, especially if others enjoy it. It's just not to my taste.


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## Oliver (Jan 1, 2016)

MWJB said:


> @Oliver can you please describe your pourover method - brewer, brew time (total & any separate bloom time), coffee weight to 0.1, grind setting, brew water weight to 1g.
> 
> It sounds like you aren't grinding fine enough, or your brew is running too fast.
> 
> ...


i have an unbranded earthenware brewer, with melitta papers. I've tried a number of different temperature waters from 85° to boiling (including boiling again halfway through the prep). I pour as little water onto the grind as I can before it is wet (currently a 'filter' grind from Has Bean - which is not unlike a coarse espresso grind; a smidge more coarse than Lavazza rosso, but finer than illy red) (I've tried all sorts of grinds, right up to a cafetière grind). Once the coffee is all saturated, I leave it for 30-40 secs, and then tease the water in, watching the bubbles swell, and get more and more pale.

If I am honest, this morning I really dragged out the pouring, using boiling water, and the acid was just as present, but seemed to sit back a bit. Rather than being an encompassing experience, it seemed to let the coffee tastes through a little more - so I do think I am on to something. The flavours were far more prevelant, and wider-ranging. I guess from the second pour it took 6-7 mins to get a mug-full of still piping hot drink.

When I prepare the aforementioned preground supermarket stuff, I do the initial saturation, then 20secs later pretty much top it up until it drains, repeat and I'm done - it still comes out smooth and acid-free, despite taking a third of the time to drip through.

ill check that blog post now and make myself a rare post-lunchtime coffee!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

OK, as you can't grind if it's pre-ground, you need to slow the flow of brew water (as you are discovering). I'd use the higher temp water with Has Bean.

The supermarket stuff can brew faster.

Try and be consistent with the pours & timing, also with the weights of coffee & water...you should then be able to come up with different, but repeatable recipes for either style of coffee.

Does the brewer have many drain holes? Do you have a goose neck pouring kettle?


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