# First DTP brew



## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Now the holiday period is over I managed to find some quality time to try out the new DTP for the first time.

Having previously had a Gaggia Classic I knew roughly where to start the SJ grinder setting so I ground up 18 gms of freshly roasted Columbian and then filled the PF with the double single wall basket. Used my paperclip distributor and then a knock and tamped with a reasonable force and then trimmed off with the blade. Quite a bit of grounds were taken off so not brewing at 18 gms which surprised me so have I not tamped hard enough?

Had pre-heated the PF before filling with the grounds, switched on brew and a dribble appeared after about 11 secs. I had two shot glasses on scales under the PF and switched pump off when I got to about 35 gms but it ran on to about 40 gms. Time at switch off was 26 secs.

The shot had a good crema but it was a tad too bitter for my taste.

Consulted the various brew charts on the web and it said to loosen the grind for bitterness, so I did another brew and this time produced a true 36 gms in 27 secs but the bitterness had increased!!

Any advice on what I should do next?

Richard


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Try tightening the grind? The dtp has preinfusion so a longer pour than you're used to on the classic may help.

Might be handy tareing the empty portafilter so you know what weight coffee you have after the razor.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Hmm I would maybe not use the razor. Unless like mentioned you weigh after using it so you can get your ratios right.

It probably works well for pre-ground in a pressurised basket, but using fresh beans and single walled you'll be hit and miss.

Try 18g again but tighten on SJ by one mark, just tamp process as normal, don't use razor then run shot until about 32g and stop the shot. It should stop up to about 36g. See how you get on from there.

Let us know what you find


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Personal view but I think some one new to the machines is better off using the razor. I wasted a lot of time initially by not using it. Sage give sizes for the baskets but from what I have found the top end they mention is on the high side. I use the single which obviously is going to be a bit critical and only suitable for powerful beans. I drink long blacks though which makes that easier. Fill level seems to be rather critical. Low weakens and at some point leaves a wet puck and less still a muddy one. High at some point reduces strength. Both can change taste. On the single the razor tool leaves some scope either way but it's not much. Weight isn't such a good idea as it might sound. I found 9.3g to be a good starting point but beans vary that. The one I am currently sorting out is going to be much nearer 10 and the single can definitely hold more with this bean than it has with others.








Gets worse. While waiting for a new felt washer for the grinder on the BE I'm weighing beans in to another Sage grinder. So I pick some weight grind and try it. Grind wrong so do the same again and maybe again and again and again. It would be much quicker to weight too many beans in say 10.5 for the single and razor it off. That way I wouldn't need to worry about grind changes altering the weight. When happy then's the time to worry about weight 'cause it can be changed a bit. So for me as I am currently not completely happy with the bean I'm using the next shot will be pulled this way. I've currently got it to taste as it should but it's a bit weak and the puck was a bit low. The puck should have been a bit high. As the grinds will be disturbed by the razor tool I tamp again. I can't see how that can change the compression 'cause if I couldn't keep tamping consistent things would be all over the place anyway.

11 sec for anything to appear sounds a bit long to me but I've never timed how long it takes. It infuses for 10 secs. I think flow starts some way into that. It takes a few secs for the pipes to fill up but I do have a 3 way which will have emptied those. The run on might be down to no 3 way valve - pass. We all probably use different beans anyway and also have different taste requirements.

John

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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Not a DTP owner, but 10secs for anything to appear was fairly normal with my classic, and as the DTP has preinfusion 10 seconds seems reasonable. Is it bitter or sour or burnt? I often find beans have "humps" and once I'm in the ball park of 1:2 in ~25-30secs I tend to play with ratios, stretching the shot by a few G each time... Which of course you can only do if you know the weight in and out (I've always thought the razor tool a little pointless)

To check the basket isn't overfull stick a coin on top of the tamped grounds and then fasten it in and remove. There shouldn't be a mark left by the coin in the (dry) puck.

Out of interest. Have you let it cool, and stirred in/scraped off the crema? It's a bit grotty if you get a mouthful and could account for the "bitter"


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## Beth71 (Jan 4, 2017)

I agree with Missy about the timing. I have a DTP and it takes about 11 seconds or so for any coffee to appear through the portafilter - totally normal.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Missy said:


> Not a DTP owner, but 10secs for anything to appear was fairly normal with my classic, and as the DTP has preinfusion 10 seconds seems reasonable. Is it bitter or sour or burnt? I often find beans have "humps" and once I'm in the ball park of 1:2 in ~25-30secs I tend to play with ratios, stretching the shot by a few G each time... Which of course you can only do if you know the weight in and out (I've always thought the razor tool a little pointless)
> 
> To check the basket isn't overfull stick a coin on top of the tamped grounds and then fasten it in and remove. There shouldn't be a mark left by the coin in the (dry) puck.
> 
> Out of interest. Have you let it cool, and stirred in/scraped off the crema? It's a bit grotty if you get a mouthful and could account for the "bitter"


As I'm forced into the world of the 53mm Sage single I have to get as much coffee in as I can. That means leaving just enough room for the grinds to expand. Leave too little and taste drops off. A coin isn't an option, I'd rather let the grinds do that. I do if working with a full basket.

Useless - well I've just outlined a useful way of using it. It's also good for some one who is new to machines in general and produces repeatable results. As suggested the grind can be found without bothering about weight. When that's done weight can then be varied - not by much in the single basket. Probably more in the double. The OP from memory is using a full load in the double. That is going to be close to what ever the razor tool gives at any grind. I find grind is the main thing that changes taste but fill level does too especially if too much..

I have a Piccino as well. Different animal. For one it seems to be better at drying the puck so there appears to be more scope for under filling. Same beans,weight and grinds as the BE and it produces a weaker drink - the differences in the colour of the initial flows are interesting though - Piccino's darker but I do have a way of making sure that the brew boiler is near to it's max. I suspect that the drier puck relates to where Fracino put the 3 way. The DTP I believe doesn't have one - not sure what effect that has. The BE does but I don't think it's as efficient as the one on the Piccono. Too much tube to it - just a suspicion and that could just be part of it.

I did say I had never timed to where coffee starts to flow. Just that 11sec seems a bit long.







Next time I pull one I will. A bit doesn't mean a lot.

John

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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Thanks for all the advice, I will give it a go later today.

Will weigh the PF after using the razor to see what weight I'm brewing at.

BTW, I see a couple of you have SJ's. Out of interest do any of you have the laser cut gauge fitted? If so where on the scale are you currently grinding and how much do you move to vary the grind?

I took the burrs out recently to do a deep clean and when I put it all back together the burrs were just chirping when the gauge was almost on zero. With the SJ off and fully tightened it does read zero. I am grinding at around 1.5 on the scale.

Richard


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

You say you tamped then trimmed off with the blade.

I thought you were meant to trim off with the blade before tamping.

Can someone clarify which is the correct method


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## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> You say you tamped then trimmed off with the blade.
> 
> I thought you were meant to trim off with the blade before tamping.
> 
> Can someone clarify which is the correct method


Sage videos show the blade being used after tamping.

I'd suggest not using it either way though.


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

Get rid of the razor, your flying blind with it otherwise, and who would want to disturb and ruin a bed of tamped coffee like that?! For the few times I attempted to use mine i'd tamp then trim like the sage videos recommend, ruining my even bed of coffee, then re-tamp and get a terrible shot!


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

@ajohn the way you check you have left just enough room for the coffee to expand is by using a coin. For goodness sake don't try and make coffee with a coin in situ... That would take you to the top of the Muppetry thread awards table. 

When you have put the coin on, put the portafilter into place then you need to remove it, take the coin off. There shouldnt be a dent where the coin was. (If there is then you are not leaving enough space for the coffee to expand)

Why are you faffing about with single baskets anyway?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Missy said:


> @ajohn the way you check you have left just enough room for the coffee to expand is by using a coin. For goodness sake don't try and make coffee with a coin in situ... That would take you to the top of the Muppetry thread awards table.
> 
> When you have put the coin on, put the portafilter into place then you need to remove it, take the coin off. There shouldnt be a dent where the coin was. (If there is then you are not leaving enough space for the coffee to expand)
> 
> Why are you faffing about with single baskets anyway?


I'm clearly and idiot.

John

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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

ajohn said:


> I'm clearly and idiot.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Lol. Take a look at the Muppetry thread... You'll find yourself in good company


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Missy said:


> Lol. Take a look at the Muppetry thread... You'll find yourself in good company


Yep - I know I meant add that in some cases I am in excellent company but not so in others.


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

I have now weighed the PF after trimming and it came out at 17.2gms.

I always tidy up the basket after trimming with a further tamp. I've also had the used puck stick to the shower screen when removing the PF. Probably left the PF in place too long after pulling the shot.

Will try the coin trick tomorrow using 17.2gms in the basket.

Richard


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> You say you tamped then trimmed off with the blade.
> 
> I thought you were meant to trim off with the blade before tamping.
> 
> Can someone clarify which is the correct method


No after tamping. When I first bought the BE I didn't use it, bet I'm not the only one. Later I found that there is only really a rather narrow range of fill levels that can be used.







I noticed too much via the portafilter being harder to get on. Later still that if the level is too low pucks get wetter and wetter. Then too high with clearance and taste can drop off because the grounds don't have sufficient space to expand. The razor tool takes care of all of that - pretty well really considering beans vary. A coin and a suck it and see approach doesn't. As if I'd run a shot with a coin in. Mind you I have wondered if I could add some ballast to reduce the weight of coffee. Not a coin though.

So given that it does what it should which I checked I'm now going to always use it on a new bean. I just have. I know that basket is unlikely to hold 10g. Guess a grinder setting, grind 10g of bean, tamp, razor, run a shot and taste. Change grinder setting repeat etc. Decent drink weigh the basket after tamping and razoring. On the this bean 9.4g and puck a bit on the wet side and no signs in it of what I usually finish up looking for. Drank the shot as it was fine. A decent extraction making full use of the bean that was in it. Then used 9.6g. Puck nice and dry but a tendency to stick to the shower screen as it did. This morning 9.8g and perfect. I usually find 9.3g gives a good fill so this bean must be heavier than usual.

Looking at the puck it lacks what I tend to use these days to keep making small adjustments to the grinder timer rather than checking the weight. There is only a marginal impression of the screw that holds the shower screen in place. I like to see slight signs of the hex socket in it. If that gets bigger or smaller I make tiny adjustments to grind time. I did weigh the output from time to time but with the bean I use most and some others it was always 9.3g / what ever it should be so just started using that as an indication. When I have another shot later today I'll try 9.9g of beans but suspect this bean wont work the same way so may have to use the impression it leaves at the moment or go back to checking weight probably daily but the other way I found that the grinder eventually settled down and might need a slight tweak once or twice a week.








Egg on my face. I checked the shot times I'm using last night. I had played around setting them and then reset to how the machine comes as I had found that the double shot button gave best results. Looking at the shot time the single was giving I'm not surprised. I also tried one of the BE's features. Keep finger on button and the infusion period remains until it's released, then the shot time is run. Press the button again and that stops. It makes a mockery of over and under extraction as most see it. I'll stick to taste.

Doh - Just realised that I didn't give the shower screen a good brush over after the puck stuck where say 30 seconds later just dropped off so guess I'll clean it and try 9.8 again. Sage's brush is pretty poor for that. There's one about with an angled end. I can be wet via a flush without scalding peoples fingers and then easily used to clean the shower screen. If used now and again the shower screen produces what it should for longer too. I haven't removed mine for ages now.

EDIT LOL The socket in the screw was full of grounds. After brushing it all over and poking the grinds out of socket the shower was still heavy on one side. Some jets that would usually be there missing and one heavier than the others. I had noticed this in the pucks from lower level fills. So time to clean the shower screen. Don't expect the screen to produce a shower from all the holes. It might do with a loaded portafilter fitted. It should produce a number that are evenly spread. My Piccino uses a much more complicated way of doing that but the BE looks to be just as good using less parts. The machine has a seen a lot of abuse recently. Lots of 40g packs of beans, 3 drinks to make so no chance to tune. Pucks all a bit wet but not too bad. Wet due to the ranges of basket sizes that are available and some too strong really.

John

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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

I use a Sage DTP and a Mazzer SJ. I find the greatest weight I can get in the double basket is between 15g and 16g, depending on the bean. I simply cannot get in 18g of ground coffee. I do find it varies from bean to bean, the extent of the variation surprising me, at around 1g. I'd be interested to know if anyone finds they can get in 18g into the Sage double baskets.

P.S. I've largely given up on using the razor, with a similar thought process to that set out by Rakesh above.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Banjoman said:


> I use a Sage DTP and a Mazzer SJ. I find the greatest weight I can get in the double basket is between 15g and 16g, depending on the bean. I simply cannot get in 18g of ground coffee. I do find it varies from bean to bean, the extent of the variation surprising me, at around 1g. I'd be interested to know if anyone finds they can get in 18g into the Sage double baskets.
> 
> P.S. I've largely given up on using the razor, with a similar thought process to that set out by Rakesh above.


I've stuffed 20g of coarse (filter grind) coffee into the double basket. Normally dose 18g.


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## Beth71 (Jan 4, 2017)

Banjoman said:


> I use a Sage DTP and a Mazzer SJ. I find the greatest weight I can get in the double basket is between 15g and 16g, depending on the bean. I simply cannot get in 18g of ground coffee. I do find it varies from bean to bean, the extent of the variation surprising me, at around 1g. I'd be interested to know if anyone finds they can get in 18g into the Sage double baskets.
> 
> P.S. I've largely given up on using the razor, with a similar thought process to that set out by Rakesh above.


That seems odd. I can definitely fit up to 18g into the double basket.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Beth71 said:


> That seems odd. I can definitely fit up to 18g into the double basket.


It depends on the grind and the beans. Mostly the grind but I'm currently using a bean which is noticeably heavier than others I have used. The difference is enough to get a wet puck when the load is close to what I usually use. Visually looking at the puck there is far more chance of channelling when things are like that.

I don't use the double but find things the same as Banjoman. This heavy bean is the only one that can get to 10g in the single. The grind in this case is the same as the one I use for my "normal" bean so it's a direct comparison. 9.3g of my normal bean fills the single and that's been adjusted to just leave sufficient space for the grinds to expand. Max strength in other words. I'm still playing with 10g of the new bean. It takes time to sort out. At 9.8g the puck borders on wet and falls out of the portafilter leaving next to nothing behind with a very gentle tap. Over 10.3g and the strength drops off. Next shot will be 10g.

John

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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

Beth71 said:


> That seems odd. I can definitely fit up to 18g into the double basket.


Yes I was surprised too. Maybe it's the beans I've been using recently (Rave Colombian Suarez and Rave Italian Job). I'm grinding for espresso, so fairly fine. And I do the North, S, E and West thing to avoid getting a heap of coffee in the middle of the filter. I think my scales are sound (Amir)!


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## Beth71 (Jan 4, 2017)

Banjoman said:


> Yes I was surprised too. Maybe it's the beans I've been using recently (Rave Colombian Suarez and Rave Italian Job). I'm grinding for espresso, so fairly fine. And I do the North, S, E and West thing to avoid getting a heap of coffee in the middle of the filter. I think my scales are sound (Amir)!


Yep, beans definitely make a difference for sure.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Banjoman said:


> Yes I was surprised too. Maybe it's the beans I've been using recently (Rave Colombian Suarez and Rave Italian Job). I'm grinding for espresso, so fairly fine. And I do the North, S, E and West thing to avoid getting a heap of coffee in the middle of the filter. I think my scales are sound (Amir)!


Don't grind into the PF, grind (exactly 18.0g) into a cup give it a shake, then transfer to the PF, ideally using a funnel, a few taps & tamp. 18g fits with everything I have tried from light filter roasts to tinned Illy beans (these were the 20g dose).


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Don't grind into the PF, grind (exactly 18.0g) into a cup give it a shake, then transfer to the PF, ideally using a funnel, a few taps & tamp. 18g fits with everything I have tried from light filter roasts to tinned Illy beans (these were the 20g dose).


Thanks but I actually do that already. Perhaps I need to tap with a bit more force







.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Banjoman said:


> Thanks but I actually do that already. Perhaps I need to tap with a bit more force
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't see how you are getting a heap then?

No, you shouldn't need more force, I tamp at 5Kg or just over (about as light as you can do it).

Do you have another set of scales you can use to sanity check the Amir?


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