# Will the new ‘Right to repair’ law improve sage parts availability?



## Amvantage (Jun 20, 2018)

As per the title, will the new right to repair law improve sage parts availability?

Do you think we'll finally be able to purchase the parts needed for home repairs?

https://apple.news/AQ0jkDJRdQKqyCswC5mhgEQ


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## Adam_e91 (Nov 17, 2020)

I was thinking the same watching the story on the BBC this morning! Although at the end they named what seemed like quite a specific list of appliances it related to which did not include coffee machines! They may have just been naming generic appliances mind you and I might be wrong, we can but hope!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Does the law also state a "fair price" one should pay?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Might turn out to be repair by suitably qualified people.

Some one posted a link to Sage's BE solenoid group available in the UK. Some commented on the price but didn't compare the cost of individual parts for other machines. Some solenoids have been listed on ebay from some one in Germany who was prepared to get up of his backside and sort them out. Sage doesn't make them. Same for a number of other bits and pieces in them.

Where do they go wrong - leaks. What's new. All machines can have that problem and do. Level probes may act up and etc. Electronics of any kind don't like water.  Some Sage machines are better protected than others in that respect.

Their biggest problem really is being bought be uninformed people. Any of their engineers will tell you they often fix things which are down to scale and lack of maintenance. Thermothingies have their advantages cost wise for what they offer but all should know that they scale more easily than boilers. My DB refurb had so much scale in the boilers that a normal descale couldn't remove it. Thanks to that I had the solenoid rattle. Simple take it out dismantle and clean it. There is a web page on doing that and not for Sage specifically. There is some Sage repair and mod info about.

Then comes brew water temperatures. It can not be measured the way most seem to do it. A better way would be to measure it when it comes out of the spouts and also lower down. Don't expect 93C. Hot water could do with being hotter on a BE. It's a hot as it can be with the flow rates it provides and needs mugs that take up less heat or preheating them or accepting cooler coffee. Most experienced people drink most of their drinks when they have cooled anyway. The thermojet is aimed at more agile temperature control. Preheating that if some one wants to do it or on the thermocoil machines is pretty easy but think about pre infusion. Also what that does to ratios. Via machine settings my DB currently produces hardly and shot at all for 15 sec. Guess what - taste and needed ratio changes. Total shot time is still 30sec. Any variation on this sort of thing always has the same effect.

The entire market at this end tends to be aimed at milk based drinks as it's what many drink. On the other hand it's been generally accepted in the past that a DTP can make great coffee. What's different. Nothing as far as control is concerned. Milk based - more likely to find a machine with no hot water than no steam wand. Hot water out of many is from a steam boiler - too hot for coffee really and some would say don't drink it.

DB's are generally thought to suffer more from leaks than others. Well mine has done 2,350 shot's over half of them by me. Not much per shot. There isn't really any reason why others shouldn't manage that. Sage get people into coffee as well. Not a bad thing really but I wonder how many people get as much as they can out of them before upgrading.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

I doubt they will enforce a price structure but it may force them to make the parts available and that may be enough as there is already a mechanism for parts just blocked from public sale

if it actually any difference who knows.... the details will be interesting https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56340077

i can think of a few manufacturers who make life difficult for consumers but generally parts are available to authorised dealers bang & olfusen and Apple springs to mind


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I can see consumer part prices being sky high and Authorised repairers getting them cheaper.

For me the real issue is planned obsolescence.

Take washing machines, the spider at the back of the drum lasts about 7 to 10 years. They corrode away galvanically because the are alloy on steel. This is purposely done. Miele also changed to this system a decade or so ago and their machines no longer last 20+ years. Our last Miele failed in under 10, spider fell off back of drum.

The could make em all steel but then washing machines would kat 20 years.

In Saudi Phillips make LED bulbs with twice the number of LEDs in them, they are all underdriven, lat longer and are far more efficient. A 5 watt led bulb will put out same amount of light as a 10 watt one here. That contract ends next year, and Phillips won't sell those bulbs anywhere else.

Lots of examples of products not being made as they should be. It's not just about right to repair but planned obsolescence, or purposely poor design.


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## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

What I think we'll see is a spectrum of compliance. The same thing already exists for cars, where the manufacturer has to have parts available for at least a set period of time, I think that's also 10 years. For the old cars I have (1980s), most parts are available new from the manufacturer, occasionally parts go unavailable at which point they make a decision whether to have another batch made by the supplier (so it partly depends whether the supplier is still around), We've had one or two occasions where they've decided they don't want to do it but have said fine, go and approach the supplier direct, we don't mind. Some mainstream car manufacturers just hit the 10 years and stop, once gone that's it, yet others, well only a few years ago (2015ish) I've been and bought brand new Toyota door handles (for my classic which used them) from the Toyota dealer, and the car ceased production in 1980.

We already see this, with some manufacturers seeing supply of parts as a good revenue source as well as good for their sale of new machines as it reinforces the reputation for reliability. The challenge becomes where supply parts for machines over 10 years starts to reduce sale of new machines, that's what will make them stop supplying.


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## Nightrider_1uk (Apr 26, 2020)

I think @DavecUKis correct re the cost of the replacement parts. I have a six year old HP officejet printer. a set of large ink cartridges cost circa £125. The print head has failed just as I put a new set of cartridges in this week. The print heads are easy to change and are available but cost circa £140. A new high spec HP officejet is circa £250, with a two year warranty, so guess where the the old printer is going.

It requires the government to cap the amount the manufactures can charge for the costs of these spare parts if they are serious about reducing waste.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I don't think there is any legal obligation for car makers to produce replacement parts for X years. Maybe there is in some country or the other, They just do but when a part isn't current quality may slip. Spark plugs as fitted by the makers and what can be bought from a motor factors has been an interesting area in the past. Same is likely to apply to diesel glow plugs and a number of other items on cars that wear regularly. Toyota used to claim that replacements were always exactly the same as was initially fitted and charged more accordingly.  Bright idea that. Some times when parts fail it is a good idea to buy via the maker rather than the after market suppliers.

Sage have decided to put themselves ahead of the people who actually do the work. It used to be possible to go directly to them. The solenoid assembly I mentions is an entire group not a part of it. In this case spares are supplied already just not the particular part that may be needed. Sage use a little wire clip on their pipe seals. I found a source once in the UK - the price was crazy for just one, £'s. Spares often works like this - we've got you so can charge what ever we like. The automotive industry is very much into that. In some cases such as batteries an OEM will sell to the maker with hardly any margin at all and make their profit in spares. The mark up on any spares is usually astronomic. My last job was an ABS unit. Cost to make well under £100. Need to buy a replacement well over £1000. Cost for a maker to fit - a sensible figure over £100 according to how many they are likely to use. Hidden costs in producing them - D&D in the first place to design them. In this case ~20 people and 2 years. You might think people who do that sort of work earn a fortune - they don't in the UK.

So gov might come up with some wonderful laws but what it will mean in practice is rather difficult to determine.

Sage problems - they get blown up out of proportion.


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