# Expobar Leva Dual Boiler PID / Brewtus mk4



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Has anyone used one of these?

Seems like a pretty good value machine considering its an extra 500 or so for an Izzo Alex Duetto.


----------



## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

I read a lot into the mk3 when I was considering a dual boiler a year or so ago, seems a great machine for the price. Perhaps not as pretty as some of the other e61 machines. I believe that the Izzo machines are a bit more tidy on the inside, as well as having a rotary pump if you compare to the duetto.

Still, I bet it would be wonderful to use  Thinking of an upgrade?


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Tempting.

Philips/Gaggia customer care has been so poor im tempted to get rid on principle! Im going to shoot for a refund and take it to senior manager level if my next several phone calls are not satisfactory

Buy cheap , buy twice...so I have discovered!


----------



## Lynne (Jan 15, 2011)

Hi! I bought this 3 months ago and am delighted, fabulous machine, very easy to use and no problems at all!


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Im wondering what level of grinder is required to do it justice, Iberital MC2 perhaps not quite?

Eureka Mignon

Macap MC4

Mazzer Mini E

??


----------



## AndyL (Apr 10, 2011)

This is dangerous thinking at work Gary. I recognise this train of thought, and it's expensive.

A clear case of separation anxiety plus the need for justice coupled with the need for a heathy dose of self gratification to make it all better again.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

You may well be right Andy. No harm doing the research : )


----------



## AndyL (Apr 10, 2011)

No, no harm, no harm at all.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

I can happily endorse the Compak K3 touch and feel it would be a worthy addition to your short list


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The reality is this set-up im thinking of would be circa 1300-1400. It would be used everyday, twice a day & I know would be the ultimate end-of-the-line in terms of upgrading..... much less frustrating to use & better end result in the cup, no guess work required on temps, or, pressure ; with the grinder distributing lovely ground coffee neatly without me having to hit it.

My bike cost 1100 and gets used 5-6 times a week.

My snow-boarding gear cost 1000+ and has been used 3 times in 2 years and probably never will again since the accident.

choices choices


----------



## crispy (Jun 6, 2011)

If you are thinking of upgrading and have the money, I think it is worth doing for the frequency of use your machine will subject to... think of the money it will save you and the substandard coffee you will avoid...

To say you will never look again may be a little far fetched... I don't think it's that you become unhappy with your setup but kind of curious as to what other machines are like to use, kind of human nature too...

Love my MC4 doserless / stepless by the way... had it for 5 years and it is still going strong... chrome is a bugger to clean though =)


----------



## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

I'm thinking along the same lines. The next upgrade will be my last for a good long while (think 10-12 years minimum).

That's why I'm thinking either Alex Duetto or La Spaziale Vivaldi II and Anfim Super Caimano grinder. If I have to wait another 6 months to get it over a cheaper setup then to me it's worth it.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I think doserless + minimal clumping is my priority with the grinder. Something which will last many many years. Im hoping 400-450 will obtain such a device : )

I like the idea of a doser, and, its anti-clump/ distribution benefits (in this respect Id be looking Super Jolly with smaller hopper) however something else to clean daily is a big negative...

Everything points to the Mazzer Mini electronic, I think it looks awesome too!


----------



## GrumpyOldWesty (Dec 10, 2010)

Having just purchased a Mazzer Mii E to replace my MC4 I have to say that I'm well impressed, not only have I seemed to dial it in so quickly, but it is more aesthetically pleasing in the kitchen environment. However the MC4 will be around for another week or so until I am more than happy with the grind quality of the Mazzer.

Hope the upgrade bug doesn't move to the espresso machine...................

Peter



garydyke1 said:


> I think doserless + minimal clumping is my priority with the grinder. Something which will last many many years. Im hoping 400-450 will obtain such a device : )
> 
> I like the idea of a doser, and, its anti-clump/ distribution benefits (in this respect Id be looking Super Jolly with smaller hopper) however something else to clean daily is a big negative...
> 
> Everything points to the Mazzer Mini electronic, I think it looks awesome too!


----------



## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

lookseehear said:


> La Spaziale Vivaldi II and Anfim Super Caimano grinder. I


I'm enjoying both my Rocket and Mini-e at the moment, but this is exactly what I have in mind for my next upgrade! Having had the opportunity to use the Anfim grinder I can confirm that it ROCKS! And I love the push-button, commercial nature of the La Spaz.

But my next planned upgrade is to the roaster, so the La Sapz and Anfim are on the back-burner for a while.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Anfim Super Caimano grinder = doserless one?

how much are these?


----------



## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

I've started the ball rolling on my machine upgrade and the expobar has jumped to the top of shopping list.

Now that you've had yours for a while......if given the same money now would you still go with the Expobar or would your money go elsewhere?


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Wouldnt hesitate in buying the Expobar again. Its given me faultless service for almost a year, easy to operate, looks good, e61 is awesome, easy to service and get parts, pulls GREAT shots . So long as quality water (130TDS ish water ) goes in it then de-scaling can be an annual event. I have zero upgraditis right now

I love Brewtus : )

Giotto slayer http://www.home-barista.com/expobar-brewtus-review-conclusion.html


----------



## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

Thanks Gary.

Water will be filtered....but not sure about the TDS. Do you still bother with the in tank filter as well?

Also i seem to recall you had some issues with VST baskets fitting the portafilter handle the 18g is that correct?

And finally does it come with a single and a double portafilter handle or just the double?

I've sent some emails to the two suppliers i know of to see what kind of deals to be done......but seeing as i'm close to Bella Barista and they offer a 2 year guarantee of sorts then i'm more likely to go with them. Will try and get over there for a hands on this week.


----------



## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Are you sure you don't want to upgrade to an Izzo or Dalla Corte and sell on your Brewtus for, oh let's say, £200?


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

pendragoncs said:


> Thanks Gary.
> 
> Water will be filtered....but not sure about the TDS. Do you still bother with the in tank filter as well?
> 
> ...


Do you still bother with the in tank filter as well? *If using our tap water - yes...If using Volvic/waitrose spring water - no*

Also i seem to recall you had some issues with VST baskets fitting the portafilter handle the 18g is that correct? *The 18g was fine in the Expobar p-filter...but not in an after market naked p-filter from a dodgy cheap source.....I was unlucky...no-one else I know has an issue!*

And finally does it come with a single and a double portafilter handle or just the double? * Comes with 2 baskets + 1 spouted p-filter*


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Monkey_Devil said:


> Are you sure you don't want to upgrade to an Izzo or Dalla Corte and sell on your Brewtus for, oh let's say, £200?


lol - let me think about that one


----------



## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

oh.....


----------



## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

Sat outside Bella Barista waiting to go and have a hands on with the expobar.

I hope Claudette makes me a coffee as the one I just had in the cafe nearby was truly disgusting. I should have known it would be when the woman serving asked me what a macchiato was when I ordered off menu.


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I don't think there is anything out there to come close to the Expo Dual for the money. The only possible thing I would change is getting the plumbed and tanked model. It isn't a biggie, but the E61 group flushes out loads more water every shot via the OPV than non e61 machines. The lack of a low water alarm means that you have to keep an eye on water levels to avoid that sinking feeling when the machine switches itself off mid-shot when water is too low.

It is a minor pain in the arse.

With regards to water, for my levels of consumption it is not cost effective to use Volvic. You must test your water for hardness or you risk shagging up your machine quicker than you might think. As a point of reference my tap water is 240ppm (hard). A Brita jug with new filter gets it down to about 40ppm, but this performance decreases over the weeks. I find replacing the jug filter twice a month is pretty cost effective provided you hunt around for a good price on the cartridges.

I tried a plumbed in Fluux filter and it reduced hardness from 240ppm to 220ppm. I've done a bit of investigation into the plumbed in Brita C range and it should reduce hardness to about 80ppm. Cost wise though, the jug is the better option.


----------



## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

Well I'm on my way home. The car is slightly weighed down...damn you Claudette with you twinkly eyes and shiny machines!


----------



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

And... I wanna know what happened


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Check his signature...bit of a giveaway.


----------



## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

Yep.....They twisted my arm and forced me to hand over my wallet. So a nice shiney Expobar Office Leva Dual-Boiler PID came home with me.

Anyone remember that episode of futurama where fry attempts to drink 100 cups of coffee and has a little counter.....mines up to 5.


----------



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Sometimes the story is more fun than the ending


----------



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Where are the pics?


----------



## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

Here you go...


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Your MC2 must feel threatened and some what insignificant next to brewtus!


----------



## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Lovely machine, congrats!


----------



## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

fatboyslim said:


> Your MC2 must feel threatened and some what insignificant next to brewtus!


The search for a the new grinder is in hand......so sadly the mc2's days are numbered.

It'll take me some time to get to grips with this machine. The main issue at the moment is i keep burning myself on the e61 and pipework.









@fatboyslim - Are you still not letting on what you've ordered then. The last clues you gave was it was shiny and blue. Funilly enought the expobar is shiny and now comes with a blue PID?


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Nice work! Any thought on grinder choice yet?


----------



## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Nice work! Any thought on grinder choice yet?


I'm waiting for Martin to get back to we with some info on a Royal he has coming in.


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

pendragoncs said:


> The search for a the new grinder is in hand......so sadly the mc2's days are numbered.
> 
> It'll take me some time to get to grips with this machine. The main issue at the moment is i keep burning myself on the e61 and pipework.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately delivery has been delayed due to delays at Fracino, so if you hadn't guessed already I'm getting a Cherub with custom blue panels!

Second hand Mazzer should be your priority to go with brewtus.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

pendragoncs said:


> I'm waiting for Martin to get back to we with some info on a Royal he has coming in.


Good work!

Have you played with your PID-offset or pressure settings yet?


----------



## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Good work!
> 
> Have you played with your PID-offset or pressure settings yet?


Not yet......currently set as per the Bella Barista manual. I'm open to suggestions though.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

pendragoncs said:


> Not yet......currently set as per the Bella Barista manual. I'm open to suggestions though.


My machine came set at 96c(!)...10.5BAR at gauge & offset of 10.0c. Now im guessing each machine will have variance so you will probably need to experiment but I adjusted the pressure to 9.75BAR and the taste improved noticeably with less visible channelling. I had to work quite hard on the offset...finding the 'flashing to steam' point..in the end settled on an offset of 7.0c (my mate also has a Brewtus and found his offset was 7.5c)...finally after the Extract coffee training day I reduced my PID to 92c from 94......everything started to taste better, very occasionally a coffee might need 93 or 94c - taste dictates

oh and the steam boiler might need a tweek. Mine came set 1.1 BAR I upped this to 1.25BAR and that is plenty for my


----------



## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

Will have a play with the settings over the next few days.....i think i've had enought coffffffeee for today.

Thanks


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

My advice would be not to touch the offset at all. It is actually irrelevant once you get used to the way the coffee tastes with different PID temp readings. Try the same weight/grind/tamp of bean at 92,94, and 96 and see which you prefer. Go up for light roast acidic beans and down for dark bitter ones.

Brew pressure is easy to alter but I'm betting BB have already tweaked that and the steam. To be honest as long as the steam is above 1 bar (and below 1.4) there isn't much in it unless you are steaming pint after pint of milk.

Get some handles for the cup tray (I have a spare set of handles you can buy if you wish) it certainly makes it much easier to lift off and on without having to remove the cups. Oh, and get a dark wood handle set, the plastic looks so shit in comparison (see my thread for pics)

I burnt myself loads over the first days too but you'll soon learn not too.

Have fun, you've chosen well!


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Expobarista said:


> *My advice would be not to touch the offset at all. It is actually irrelevant once you get used to the way the coffee tastes *


Maybe its my geeky-OCD but im not sure I fully agree with this, makes it tricky to talk/follow brew recipes unless you have some confidence in the temperature - I was right to doubt this...mine was 3c out afterall.


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Did you manage to measure the temp of the brew water as it emerges?

If you are a recipe follower then yes, it makes perfect sense to do what you have done. Personally I don't find recipes at all helpful, and I just prefer to engage the experience I have to try and get the best out of the coffee. I've used a few machines, as I know you have, and find that they all vary a little in how they output, rendering recipes a bit redundant. Some of the recipes I've seen are at total odds with what works for the given bean on my machine, the most glaring example is the roaster suggesting an enormous dose (well, they would, wouldn't they) when what works for me is a normal dose.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

followed this in the end






Since correcting the offset and setting the PID at 92 my shots are definitely 'exceptional' more often than they were before.

Getting the Royal took it to the next level


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

You could have just set the temp on your PID to 90 and it would have had the same effect ;-)


----------



## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

Expobarista said:


> You could have just set the temp on your PID to 90 and it would have had the same effect ;-)


But if you know you need to drop the temp by 2 degrees wouldn't it just be easier to adjust your offset then you don't have to worry?

I'm a couple of days in and god has punished me for getting the expobar by striking me down with a bad case of Man Flu, can't taste much at the moment.

However i have noticed a couple of things...

I've had to grind a lot finer to slow the extraction down.....using 18g in VST but was coming through way to quickly. I've checked the pressure in case it was channelling and thats at about 9.5. I've slowed it down, but for the next round of drinks i'll try and choke the machine and then bring it back from there. Can't really comment on the taste yet.

I've also noticed, but i'm not sure if this is just me not being very observant in the past. But the coffee is way hotter that i used to get out of the classic. Is this just a case of better heated cups from the warmer and a more stable brew temp? I suppose my temp surfing on the classic could have been way off but i never noticed the coffee ever being this toasty.

Any finally BB gave me a 1KG bag of these http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffeebeans/proddetail.asp?prod=59&cat=32 . I think they may be the beans they used for the web site background as they are so dark and oily. Great for latte are as the contrast is nice and the crema was amazing.....well in quantity anyway....that'll be the 40% Robust i guess. Anyway they'll be going to the back of the cupboard for grinder cleaning and for the father in law who likes italian type espresso.


----------



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I tend to keep a bag of supermarket beans at the back of the cupboard for the seasoning shot after a backflush with Puly Caff. Don't want to waste good stuff for a guaranteed sink shot.

I had a particularly hot shot this morning on my classic. Nearly burnt the roof of my mouth off. Maybe it's the coffee? Something to do with TDS maybe?


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I'd suggest getting used to the machine with the offset as it is and varying the temp on the PID. Maybe get an easy coffee (ie Union Revelation), dial in the grind til you get a good shot, then run a series of identical shots but changing the temp 2 degrees each time to find the sweet spot, too cool and the coffee will have a sour edge, too hot and it will be bitter. That'll be your baseline, and you can vary around there. It will probably be what relates to about '92' in recipes, regardless of what your PID says. Get really used to the machine (ie, 4 months) before fiddling with the offset. Remember that individual Levas may vary in the temp they show...I suspect my machine needs an offset of about 12 to show a what the brew water temp is in reality, but it matters not one jot what the PID displays as long as I know what temp=tasty coffee.

Stick with the same beans for a while until you get stable results and understand what the effects are when you change any of the parameters.

Just my opinion, ymmv.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

pendragoncs said:


> But if you know you need to drop the temp by 2 degrees wouldn't it just be easier to adjust your offset then you don't have to worry?
> 
> I'm a couple of days in and god has punished me for getting the expobar by striking me down with a bad case of Man Flu, can't taste much at the moment.
> 
> ...


Your temperature may be too hot if your offset isnt true..Ie you think youre pulling a shot at 94c...it might be 96/97.

The free beans from Bella were . erm. charcoal!


----------



## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Your temperature may be too hot if your offset isnt true..Ie you think youre pulling a shot at 94c...it might be 96/97.
> 
> The free beans from Bella were . erm. charcoal!


I've followed that vid you posted to work out my offset but will play with with the temp up and down to see the difference in taste.


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

What matters is what it tastes like. Pull a range of 4 shots at 2 degree increments and you'll soon find out where the sweet spot is. The offset is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the PID reads 97 if the coffee tastes best at that. With regards to following 'recipes' you are placing faith in the roaster having a correctly calibrated PID.

I'm pretty sure that leaving the factory offset and PID reading of 94-96 will be bang on. What matters is consistency.

Trust your taste buds, not the Internet







)


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

How you getting on Jason?


----------



## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

Not to bad....Man flus just about gone so i can taste again.

I will need to order some more coffee though as i've only got odd bags so the moment i get one dialled in i'll have to switch and re-dial in again.

Also trying to be more methodical and record my shots.......can't find any decent apps to record extraction settings so a bit of paper is all i've got for now.

Milk is bubbly.....need to get some pratice.

No regrets and definatley the right choice.


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

For the milk, have the tip in at the side so the milk spins. Have it at a shallow depth where there isn't a lot of noise being made, just a very gentle hiss. At the very end, sink the tip as you are turning off the steam.

For beans, avoid HasBean like the plague until you know where you are. It is much fussier and you'll have to fanny about endlessly to get a half decent shot. (same goes for Square Mile and to a lesser extent Extract) Union Revelation is a much more forgiving coffee, or if you want to blow a lot of coffee getting acquainted with it try Happy Donkey Brazilian espresso, it's a good everyday coffee at a reasonable price.


----------



## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Expobarista said:


> For the milk, have the tip in at the side so the milk spins. Have it at a shallow depth where there isn't a lot of noise being made, just a very gentle hiss. At the very end, sink the tip as you are turning off the steam.
> 
> For beans, avoid HasBean like the plague until you know where you are. It is much fussier and you'll have to fanny about endlessly to get a half decent shot. (same goes for Square Mile and to a lesser extent Extract) Union Revelation is a much more forgiving coffee, or if you want to blow a lot of coffee getting acquainted with it try Happy Donkey Brazilian espresso, it's a good everyday coffee at a reasonable price.


Second what ExpoBarsista says but I would also try Union Organic Natural Spirit and Bright Note espresso blends - still dark roast (very dark by HasBean standards) but a lot more flavours and easy to brew.

Ocado deliver fresh Union Hand-Roasted beans - at certain times of the day delivery can be free.


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

(or try Signature blend from Rave coffee £12.50 a kilo, and lovely)


----------

