# £1500 max budget for a machine dont want used, which one should i get



## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

Iv got £1500 max budget for an espresso machine, i tend to drink flat white, id rather not buy second hand as im scared of problems. Any suggestions???


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## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

Have you already got a grinder ?


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

Yes i took advise of the site and decided on a niche, so the budget is just for a machine.


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## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

Lelit Elizabeth (dual boiler) or Lelit MaraX (HX) come in well under budget.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Mikey finn said:


> Iv got £1500 max budget for an espresso machine, i tend to drink flat white, id rather not buy second hand as im scared of problems. Any suggestions???


Dual boiler or HX, any preference? What are the requirements?

Pressure profiling? Temp. Stability? Fine Temperature control? Fast heat up time? Size?

What's your usage pattern? Who's going to use it? How many coffees per day? How many coffees at a time? Do you want simplicity (machine wise) or fancy stuff, full of bells and whistles?

Tells us more about you and hopefully we can understand your needs.


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

Ill probably make 4 double shot to 8 double flat whites per day so good steam necessary to get a nice micro foam, i would be pairing it with a niche grinder, other than that i would probably go dual boiler. I have been looking at the la speciale s1 mini v2 which i thought would fit the bill but i thought it would be foolish to just buy one without comparrison. I was shown how to make good coffee by a great guy at limini coffee and worked in a shop for 4 years as a barista, but dont know alot about set ups as i just worked with what i was given.


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## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

What water would you be planning on using with it ? As you may want to budget for something like the Osmio Zero too.


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

Iv got a mains fitted brita filter under the sink already fitted.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Mikey finn said:


> Ill probably make 4 double shot to 8 double flat whites per day so good steam necessary to get a nice micro foam, i would be pairing it with a niche grinder, other than that i would probably go dual boiler. I have been looking at the la speciale s1 mini v2 which i thought would fit the bill but i thought it would be foolish to just buy one without comparrison. I was shown how to make good coffee by a great guy at limini coffee and worked in a shop for 4 years as a barista, but dont know alot about set ups as i just worked with what i was given.


How many shots in sequence? I.e: are you making 8 coffees through the day, one at a time for yourself or is that for you and someone else? How many in a row? And, as a Jason say, whats your water like? Whets the water in your kettle like? You should avoid descaling a coffee machine. How hard is your tap water, and the water coming out of the brita filter? Do you know he difference between a double boiler and a heat exchanger?


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

Ill probably only ever make 2 to 4 doubles in a row. Iv heard good things about HX in terms of reliability and was advised to look at a lever machine with a HX but they are abit more than I want to spend. I just want great coffee minimum hassle.


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

Water is great no issues its soft water and i have a ps1000 mains filter fitted, which i change regularly.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Have a look at the MaraX, the Lelit Elizabeth and the ACS Minima.

I take you are familiar with an E61 grouphead, it's advantages and disadvantages?

All very different machines.

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

Iv used a couple of different machines but i spent most of my time on an la spaz s5. I dont know the benefits of a bigger group head. Iv looked at the lelit elizibeth it looks abit like the rancillio silvia at first glance. What machine do you use?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Mikey finn said:


> Iv used a couple of different machines but i spent most of my time on an la spaz s5. I dont know the benefits of a bigger group head. Iv looked at the lelit elizibeth it looks abit like the rancillio silvia at first glance. What machine do you use?


You do realise the Rancilio is a SBDU (single boiler dual use) machine and the Elizabeth is a DB (dual boiler) right?

I have a La Pavoni.

Ps: you didn't answer half of my questions.


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

Like i say im not claiming to be an expert with the differences in the various machines, im relatively new to the forum so havnt really explored the various possibilities. So with the info i have provided i just wanted a good machine that will serve me well for many years. Is there any real special features i should be looking for??


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Mikey finn said:


> Like i say im not claiming to be an expert with the differences in the various machines, im relatively new to the forum so havnt really explored the various possibilities. So with the info i have provided i just wanted a good machine that will serve me well for many years. Is there any real special features i should be looking for??


 I think the best advice I can give you is to take a look at the link I sent you and see which machine you like the most.

also, do some reading on:

E61 group head

dual boiler vs Heat exchanger (the MaraX is a clever HX, no need for cooling flushes)

E61 maintenance (the Minima does not need it)

Ring Group (fast heat up time)

any of the machines mentioned here will serve you for many years, providing you look after them. They will keep giving you coffee one after the other, they are temp stable. You can control temperature (more finely on the Minima and the Elizabeth) then the MaraX. The Elizabeth has small boilers.

I asked you a question, if you care about heat up time. You didn't answer.


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

Thank you for all the help iv looked at the link but until your message i was just getting confused with all the jargon, yes the heat up time is a factor i wouldn't want to wait more than 15 minutes but its not a deal breaker. I will look into the 3 you mentioned, its interesting that you didnt reccomend the machine you have, is there a reason?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Get a smart plug and worrying about heat up times thing of the past, i turned my machine on from work today as i was leaving for home 😂

Also dont just let looks rule your head, while the Elizabeth looks a bit cheaper than the others imo, from watching daves vids its a very very capable machine


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Pavs a faf😂

Need to be a proppee coffee nerd to use one of those.....😜


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Mikey finn said:


> its interesting that you didnt reccomend the machine you have, is there a reason?


 It costs like £450 new

Pulling more than two shots consecutively is challenging. The machine overheats, and the there's no tank. The water goes in the boiler directly. I would not recommend given your usage pattern.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Cuprajake said:


> Get a smart plug and worrying about heat up times thing of the past, i turned my machine on from work today as i was leaving for home 😂
> 
> Also dont just let looks rule your head, while the Elizabeth looks a bit cheaper than the others imo, from watching daves vids its a very very capable machine


 And heats up quickly! 😂


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

I take it you wouldn't recommend the s1 then??


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I've done some extensive reviewing of many of the machines mentioned. In recent years I have done more Video to "prove it". Little clever, editing, no production values, no glib fast talking whilst showing and saying little. What you see is what you can get. If you want minimum hassle, clever features and easy cleaning, Lelit Elizabeth would probably be a good choice for your usage. I'm certainly enjoying her. I'm even relatively happy to leave the steam boiler on for extended periods and actually used the hot water for an Americano...


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

If i had new machine money the Elizabeth would be my choice.


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

Thanks for the help guys. Really appreciated, i knew it would be worth a comparrison, im seriously swayed now. 🤯


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

Mikey finn said:


> Ill probably make 4 double shot to 8 double flat whites per day so good steam necessary to get a nice micro foam, i would be pairing it with a niche grinder, other than that i would probably go dual boiler. I have been looking at the la speciale s1 mini v2 which i thought would fit the bill but i thought it would be foolish to just buy one without comparrison. I was shown how to make good coffee by a great guy at limini coffee and worked in a shop for 4 years as a barista, but dont know alot about set ups as i just worked with what i was given.


My first machine was a mini Vivaldi II (exactly the same as you, from a recommendation from limini). it was great initially but became very frustrating when wanting to upgrade things like tampers, grooming tools, competition baskets/screens. Looking back the looks don't feel great either. Best of luck in your machine choice!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

Ahh right i didnt think of that, what machine are you using now??


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## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

If you're planning on leaving the machine on all day to make your 4-8 doubles rather than switching it on each time I don't think the warm up would be an issue.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I think the best advice I can give you is to take a look at the link I sent you and see which machine you like the most.
> 
> also, do some reading on:
> 
> ...


 Just a small correction, for a typo, see bold text above.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

John Yossarian said:


> Just a small correction, for a typo, see bold text above.


Thanks John, good spot, managed to edit and correct the initial post. Me typing replies in haste, on a mobile device, tired and late in the evening is not a great idea.


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## PJCT (Jun 17, 2020)

It is above your budget (by 10%) but may I suggest that you consider a Profitec 600.

It has many of the benefits of it's "big brothers" from ECM and Profitec with not too many drawbacks. The savings appear to have been made (to my mind) in sensible areas:

- Vibration (rather than Rotary) pump; and

- PID on brew boiler only.

It is GBP1,699 from bellabarista (but out of stock like many machines). Heat up time will be longer than non E61 DB machines.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

PJCT said:


> It is above your budget (by 10%) but may I suggest that you consider a Profitec 600.
> 
> It has many of the benefits of it's "big brothers" from ECM and Profitec with not too many drawbacks. The savings appear to have been made (to my mind) in sensible areas:
> 
> ...


Service Boiler on the Profitec 700 is also twice as big. (2L vs 1L)

Not sure where you got the PID info, as this is NOT the case.

From Profitec itself:

"Both boiler temperatures can be individually adjusted using the PID".

https://www.profitec-espresso.com/en/products/pro600

The only machine in the Profitec dual boiler range which has a pressure stat on the service boiler and a PID on the brew boiler is the Profitec 300 (God knows why, makes no sense to me).


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

So what do you gain for the extra money apart from the bigger boiler? Im a beginner in terms of settings etc so im wondering if id benefit from something really customisable as id probably stick to the factory settings if they produced good results.


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## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

mmmatron said:


> My first machine was a mini Vivaldi II (exactly the same as you, from a recommendation from limini). it was great initially but became very frustrating when wanting to upgrade things like tampers, grooming tools, competition baskets/screens. Looking back the looks don't feel great either. Best of luck in your machine choice!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Agree with this ^

Also i find the machine i have now ECM E61 group i can cut my shot closer too what i want i found the push buttons a bit limiting and i see you used a la Spaziale before not sure if you got blocking alarms but i found it temperamental good luck


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

It would only generally block if it was overdosed. I feel totally confused now on what machine to get. Apart from taking the screen off and brass and washing with a brush what other maintenance do these e61 take??


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mikey finn said:


> It would only generally block if it was overdosed. I feel totally confused now on what machine to get. Apart from taking the screen off and brass and washing with a brush what other maintenance do these e61 take??


 I'd recommend you get onto my review site and check out my videos on YouTube. I think you would find it educational and it would answer a lot of your questions and some questions you don't know you have yet. Make the time to get informed, there is not such a rush that you can't take a few days.


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

Thanks dave i have checked out some of your vids a few things go over my head like blooming pre infusion all the teq they seemed to be aimed at people that know their onions 😉


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

Can you recommend any good books also, that may break a few good principles techniques and set ups etc down??


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mikey finn said:


> Thanks dave i have checked out some of your vids a few things go over my head like blooming pre infusion all the teq they seemed to be aimed at people that know their onions 😉


 You are watching the advanced stuff, read some reviews, watch some of the older stuff, watch the morning coffee series, watch changing/lubricating the cam on an manual E61 (which you have to do after backflushing with cleaner). Without understanding things you won't be able to decide if certain comments made are beneficial to you or not.

e.g. No problem with the comment below in as much that this is that posters experience and it must be right for them



> Also i find the machine i have now ECM E61 group i can cut my shot closer too what i want i found the push buttons a bit limiting and i see you used a la Spaziale before not sure if you got blocking alarms but i found it temperamental good luck


 The thing you don't have the knowledge to know is; a manual lever E61 group removes some possibilities from the machine and introduces some things to consider.



If you backflush with cleaner, you MUST dismantle the group lever cam area dry and lubricate


The cam followers WILL wear, the valve rubbers WILL harden, the springs WILL lose their tension, to continue operating well the group WILL need to be rebuilt, parts of it possibly at 4,7 or 10 years depending on usage and on time. The rebuild is easy, getting parts that fit *really *well isn't, unless you get the group manufacturers parts. Sure you can mod parts a tad, if you have the skill


Functionally it limits (or makes more difficult) what you can do because the group is not electronically controlled


There are solenoid E61s which overcome these problems but they are not widely used (yet) because the manufacturers are frightened about poor marketing and lack of acceptance. The public and retailers are getting what they want in lever operated E61s...not really what they need. Don't get me wrong, I like the manual lever E61,* but there are other options that give better long term outcomes for users who are not so confident/diligent with maintenance.* My Minima solenoid for example is as easy to replace as a lightbulb, the only tools I need are an Allen key to get the 2 bolds holding the shroud covering the solenoid off, I don't even need to remove the machines case.

Solenoid groups are generally still working fine decades later if the machine is used with good water. My EM pinball machines are over 50 years old the solenoids are still fine. If you do need to change one it's easy, cheap and many makes will fit.

Or take my advice that based on your stated requirements, the clever programming and easy to live with nature of the Lelit Elizabeth looks like it will make a nice fit for you and not break the bank. It's a relatively modern machine that got a significant input from me in terms of some things it needed. People will make recommendations of machines they have owned and used for a significant period, for me that's over 50 machines of all types. I'm not a retailer, I don't have affiliate links, I'm not in business. Testing, designing and reviewing machines I'm interested in is a bit of a hobby for me.

Either do lots and lots of work to get informed then make the best decision you can. Or (if you like the look of the Elizabeth), trust me and go for that as your home machine. If in 3-5 years you want to upgrade you can do so...but you won't *need* to!


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

Yes i think ill just take your advise im sure that the Elizabeth will meet my requirements as you say. Thank you for your time everyone who contributed really very much appreciated. 🙏


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## PJCT (Jun 17, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Service Boiler on the Profitec 700 is also twice as big. (2L vs 1L)
> 
> Not sure where you got the PID info, as this is NOT the case.
> 
> ...


 Yes you're right! My mistake. It's the 300 which has one PID.


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

Mikey finn said:


> Ahh right i didnt think of that, what machine are you using now??


Bought a second hand Vesuvius after the la spaz, had it for 4 years, it was a joy. Just sold the V for a DE1+...even more joy!


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Mikey finn said:


> Yes i think ill just take your advise im sure that the Elizabeth will meet my requirements as you say. Thank you for your time everyone who contributed really very much appreciated.


I should stop reading these threads. I want one now!

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## lhavelund (Dec 28, 2018)

mmmatron said:


> Bought a second hand Vesuvius after the la spaz, had it for 4 years, it was a joy. Just sold the V for a DE1+...even more joy!


 Hmm. I'm still not sure I generally like the Decent aesthetic very much, but I have to admit that that is a nice-looking setup.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Looks like an ipod


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Cuprajake said:


> Looks like an ipod


 It's an Android tablet.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Ah yeah i can see the alexa dot there too 😂😜


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

There is a 3 month wait on orders for niche zero, it has been suggested that i buy a second hand super jolly to put me on till the n.zero arrives then sell it again, there are a few on ebay. Any ideas of what i should be looking to pay for a good example?? £350???


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## Ozzyjohn (May 31, 2020)

Mikey finn said:


> There is a 3 month wait on orders for niche zero, it has been suggested that i buy a second hand super jolly to put me on till the n.zero arrives then sell it again, there are a few on ebay. Any ideas of what i should be looking to pay for a good example?? £350???


 I can't help you with a price guide for a second hand Super Jolly, but would suggest a possible alternative route for you to consider - a hand grinder. I bought a 1Zpresso JX Pro to use while I'm waiting for my Niche to arrive - it's been a joy to use, and shouldn't be too difficult to shift on if I decide not to keep it as a back up.

Regards,
John


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I'd there a royal still in the sale section for £350?


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@Mikey finn - If you like new stuff and don't want to do a lot of tinkering I would be hesitant about recommending an ex-commercial Mazzer from eBay as they are great but normally need some work to clean them up and to be good for single dosing.

Prices range from £60 mislabelled "well loved" bargains to North of £250 for mint condition timer models. The electronic dosing ones are higher again.

I would second getting a nice little hand grinder, lets you sell on without much loss, works out the box and you can use it for holidays/work travel/camping etc. if you get a Niche so not redundant in the long run.


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

Iv got a hario ss1 hand grinder it was only about £35, but has ceramic conical burrs i use it with my aeropress. Do you just get a better control of grind with the more expensive hand grinders??


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Mikey finn said:


> Iv got a hario ss1 hand grinder it was only about £35, but has ceramic conical burrs i use it with my aeropress. Do you just get a better control of grind with the more expensive hand grinders??


Yes and it will chomp through beans much faster. I also have a JX pro and I'm constantly singing its praises.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

JX Pro is good and you will want to hang on to it as a backup, or for Zen moments.


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

It seems impossible to get hold of one of these 1Zpresso JX Pro online no one has them in stock unless you buy direct from the USA and get lumbered with import charges. any other suggestions??


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

1Zpresso shipped from Asia when I ordered a spare part from them.

All the hand grinders seem to have taken a hammering with people getting one for home use, also assuming the supply chain from Asia has had some challenges as well recently.

Three alternative suggestions:

- MBK - Aergrind or Feld47 - website restocks occasionally so need to be patient

- Comandante C40 with red clixs mod kit - good but a bit slower, kit is not essential but gives finer adjustments

- Kinu M47 - would be from Europe, nice but pricey!


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

If this is going to be a one time purchase and will be used for other brewing methods the KinuM47 is on my list. Feld 2 are good they almost never come up for sale.


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Mikey finn said:


> It seems impossible to get hold of one of these 1Zpresso JX Pro online no one has them in stock unless you buy direct from the USA and get lumbered with import charges. any other suggestions??


Bella Barista have them listed as restocking on their website. Might be worth contacting them.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## Mikey finn (Jul 9, 2020)

👍


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## ZiggyMarley (Jan 9, 2019)

mmmatron said:


> Bought a second hand Vesuvius after the la spaz, had it for 4 years, it was a joy. Just sold the V for a DE1+...even more joy!


 now that Decent looks very interesting - is it faff free WRT maintenance? I assume no lubing group heads etc....?


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

ZiggyMarley said:


> now that Decent looks very interesting - is it faff free WRT maintenance? I assume no lubing group heads etc....?


Yeah pretty much. There's very little to do apart from drop the shower screen for a weekly clean, and clean the drip tray and tank. Thrip tray and tank are ceramic so really easy to clean.

There's an interesting video on the Decent thread about the DE's longevity.


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