# In the market, overwhelmed by choice!



## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Good Evening,

Historically I have owned bean to cup machines only and I am now in the market for a new espresso machine (max budget £1000).

My research has led me down a few avenues, and any advice would be greatly received.

So here they are:

Fracino Paccino

Lelit PL62.

Truthfully I am leaning towards the Lelit, if I do what are the benefits of going for the PID model?

I say this as the cost difference between PID and non PID seem to be £1000 and £750.

This is a long-term investment and don't want to regret it, nor get a machine that I want to upgrade in a couple of years.

Grinder i'm thinking Lelit Fred PL044 (this will be upgraded in a couple of years)

Thanking you muchly


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

When you get your post count over 5 (easily done), you will see a lovely Sage Dual Boiler in the sales section for £700. @dfk41 can tell you more.

Better than a HX machine as you don't need to flush them. I doubt you'd need to upgrade from that, as plenty of members have these.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Rhys,

Thank you for your prompt reply, I do like the look of the dual boiler, unfortunately its footprint is too large to fit the space I have planned (width needs to be sub 30cm) hence the appeal of the Lelit.

Ian


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## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

Hi Ian,

Looks like I'm in a similar boat as you with regards to the espresso machines... was going to start a new thread but thought we might as well keep it all in the same place.

I am tossing up between the Fracino Piccino and the Lelit PL60PLUST... both are dual boiler, which, if I understood correctly, would take less time to warm up compared to the HX machines.

Have you progressed any further with your decision?

Also, does anyone have any opinion of the two they care to share?


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Flattie,

I was also looking at the Piccino, I made some enquiries and I was pointed in the direction on the Lelita, I spent some considerable time mulling them over and doing the research. I am rather new to this so I may be corrected but my understanding is this:

DB will heat up quicker, this was not a concern of mine so never really looked into the difference between the two with this regard.

DB is easier to use and easier to replicate drinks.

If DB suits you I would go with the Lelit as that has PID and this will help with temperature maintenance no end.

I have indeed made my choice, the PL62 (non PID), the reason I have made this choice:

I am a bit of a perfectionist and this allows more adjustment and more skill to learn.

Dimensions of the machine fit my available space better.

Grinder has taken quite a bit of research but I have also decided on the Quamar M80E, mainly as the burr size is 63mm and they seem to receive positive reviews.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Just to add to the above Flattie,

When I made the Piccino enquiries this is what I was advised by the sales rep, how much is true and how much was to get me to upgrade to the next model up im not sure...

The main differences is the Piccino is a domestic machine where the PL62 is a semi professional, that is it's a small version of a traditional espresso machine.

It uses the E61 group head which is really the industry standard. Most machines use either the modern E61 or a variation of.

This group head is a little retro, this is where the back flush is operated via a little lever on the side, this is how they all used to be, today's trend is to go back in time, makes it more interesting and looks great.

The Piccino uses its own group head designed at a cost for the domestic market and the coffee boiler is all part of the group head.

The PL62T has a PID temperature control which controls the water temperature a lot more accurately than the normal pressure stat system.

The Piccino uses a pressure stat, the band between on and off is much wider so less consistency in temperature.

The Pl62T is a single larger boiler and heat exchanger where the Piccino has 2 small boilers.

Of course in my mind the PL62 Looks like a proper coffee machine but that's a matter of choice and basically the PL62T is a proper coffee machine.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Be interested to know how many forum members have Lelit machines, and as regards the Quamar......I think that owners will tell you how great they are because they always do......whereas people who do not own them will tell you not to buy them. They were popular on here a couple of years ago and I think a couple of people bought them. The buttons on the top seem to get some stick and I would certainly think you could get alternates but if your mind is made up, then good luck


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

I'm yet to purchase the Quamar so its not set, what alternatives for the price bracket (£250 - 400) would you recommend then?

With regards to the Lelit I agree that getting info is difficult, seems to have positive reviews when I do find them.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Are you buying the Quamar used? £400 would get you a Eureka 65 I would think and they come up for sale on her from time to time


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

No Quamar would be brand new


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

igm45 said:


> No Quamar would be brand new


So how much have you seen it for and where please?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Sorry, I was presuming you were going for the E version which is on demand, hence the price query......at £395 for a dosered model if you want a doser, seems fine but buying second hand will give you a far broader choice


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

http://doppiocoffee.co.uk/grinder-quamar-m80.html

If that is what you have seen, they add VAT on at the checkout


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

How about this?

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?36891-Compak-K3-Touch-Advanced-Polished-Chrome-x2


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## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

igm45 said:


> The PL62T has a PID temperature control which controls the water temperature a lot more accurately than the normal pressure stat system.
> 
> The Piccino uses a pressure stat, the band between on and off is much wider so less consistency in temperature.


I was under the impression that a PID isn't quite so useful on a HX machine?

Also reading up a little pressurestat is a fairly proven tech in an espresso machine, no? Are pressurestat a big problem in a dual boiler machine?



> Of course in my mind the PL62 Looks like a proper coffee machine but that's a matter of choice and basically the PL62T is a proper coffee machine.


I originally also considered the PL62 but realised my need for quicker coffee supersedes the warmup time :-/ hence looking at the PL60PLUST instead which is a DB with a PID.


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## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

@igm45 - Forgot to thank you also for the info.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

flattie said:


> I was under the impression that a PID isn't quite so useful on a HX machine?


The quote I gave was from a salesman so they will naturally try sell you the 'better' models. My research led me to the same conclusion, hence my decision to opt for the non PID PL62.



flattie said:


> Also reading up a little pressurestat is a fairly proven tech in an espresso machine, no? Are pressurestat a big problem in a dual boiler machine?


I kind of settled on HX quite early on so didn't overly research this area, so Cannot help you there. Sorry.



flattie said:


> I originally also considered the PL62 but realised my need for quicker coffee supersedes the warmup time :-/ hence looking at the PL60PLUST instead which is a DB with a PID.


Speaking for myself personally I think both these machines will make great coffee's!

Are you set on the PL60Plus now? Let me know how you get on with it if you have, would be great to share Lelit expriences, and maybe share some experience of the brand on the Forums.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> So how much have you seen it for and where please?


It is a little more than the budget I advised before (I don't really want to spend even £400 on a grinder tbh) but it was the M80E from here:

https://www.espressounderground.co.uk/Quamar_M80EB_On_demand_Black_p/m80eb.htm

About £435 inc VAT.

Someone else posted the link to the Compak K3, what is the general consensus of these? (It would be nice to come under budget for once, as opposed to the constant "I wonder what the next price bracket offers..."


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@igm45

You do realise that the grinder is more important than the coffee machine. The machine only makes coffee with what you stick in it, so, stick poorly ground coffee and it will not turn it into anything else than shite. You state you don't really want to spend even £400 on a grinder. I think you are seriously missing the point, if all you want is a flash shiney thing in your kitchen


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

@dfk41,

I am aware of the importance of the grinder, hence the fact that I have chosen the machine yet still requesting advice on the grinder.

What I am trying to keep in mind:

1) I am relatively new

2) I am limited by finances

3) This is my first grinder, it may be that in a few years I do look to spend more money on a grinder. I am hopeful that the coffee machine will serve my needs and not require upgrading.

I am aware that the old phrase:

'You only get out what you put in'

Is particularly relevant to coffee.

So please do offer your advice of grinders to get me started.

Ian


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Ian did you go for the compak?


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## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

igm45 said:


> Are you set on the PL60Plus now?.


I was until I found the Sage Dual Boiler for £849...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

igm45 said:


> Grinder has taken quite a bit of research but I have also decided on the Quamar M80E, mainly as the burr size is 63mm and they seem to receive positive reviews.


I did an engineering review on the Quamar M80E, I wouldn't recommend it. Owners are usually super positive about their kit ands often have no other frame of reference having owned perhaps one other sub par grinder before their Quamar.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> Ian did you go for the compak?


 @coffeechap

I managed to pick up a 2 year old Compak K6, recently replaced burrs.

Will have to see how I get on with that...


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

flattie said:


> I was until I found the Sage Dual Boiler for £849...


Nice find! Where did you find that?


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> I did an engineering review on the Quamar M80E, I wouldn't recommend it. Owners are usually super positive about their kit ands often have no other frame of reference having owned perhaps one other sub par grinder before their Quamar.


I bought the manual version of the M80 but without the doser - so like the E model but without the E (if that makes sense). Just using the on off button to control the dose through the funnel (no problem, I can count to 9). I'm no expert, but compared with my old Rocky, it's night and day in terms of in cup improvement. For £360 new, it's not a bad 'next step up' until the inevitable upgrade to something better. I'd be interested in the issues you found in your engineering review. If I suspect any inferiority/reliability with the grinder it's tenure will be short lived. But for now, it ticks all the boxes for me.


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## Craigy_bear (Mar 9, 2017)

Whilst your budget is massively higher than my own, I sympathise with the huge variety!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

lake_m said:


> I bought the manual version of the M80 but without the doser - so like the E model but without the E (if that makes sense). Just using the on off button to control the dose through the funnel (no problem, I can count to 9). I'm no expert, but compared with my old Rocky, it's night and day in terms of in cup improvement. For £360 new, it's not a bad 'next step up' until the inevitable upgrade to something better. I'd be interested in the issues you found in your engineering review. If I suspect any inferiority/reliability with the grinder it's tenure will be short lived. But for now, it ticks all the boxes for me.


When Dave does a review it is impartial and sometimes brutal, but I doubt he will share it with you!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

lake_m said:


> I bought the manual version of the M80 but without the doser - so like the E model but without the E (if that makes sense). Just using the on off button to control the dose through the funnel (no problem, I can count to 9). I'm no expert, but compared with my old Rocky, it's night and day in terms of in cup improvement. For £360 new, it's not a bad 'next step up' until the inevitable upgrade to something better. I'd be interested in the issues you found in your engineering review. If I suspect any inferiority/reliability with the grinder it's tenure will be short lived. But for now, it ticks all the boxes for me.


Can't share it as it wasn't published, it was done to see if a retailer wanted to stock it....after my review, they decided they didn't. I personally wouldn't buy one or advise anyone to buy one. However the M80E had some obvious problems that I am surprised you have not noticed...


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## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

igm45 said:


> Nice find! Where did you find that?


http://www.ecookshop.co.uk/ecookshop/product.asp?pid=BES920BSUK


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

flattie said:


> http://www.ecookshop.co.uk/ecookshop/product.asp?pid=BES920BSUK


That is nice. As per my earlier thread had I the space I would seriously consider that machine


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Craigy_bear said:


> Whilst your budget is massively higher than my own, I sympathise with the huge variety!


 @Craigy_bear

Bargains to be had. I picked up the K6 for £135 delivered in the end.

Whilst I could of bought something more expensive this seems to get good reviews and whilst I get sorted I can't lose at that price.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> Can't share it as it wasn't published, it was done to see if a retailer wanted to stock it....after my review, they decided they didn't. I personally wouldn't buy one or advise anyone to buy one. However the M80E had some obvious problems that I am surprised you have not noticed...


Thanks, that's interesting. I guess the only thing I've found that's a bit odd is when you go to change grind setting when the machine is running (as you're supposed to do apparently), as soon as you release the catch, the adjuster wants to throw itself towards the course setting. If you don't have a firm grip on the adjustment ring, it turns quickly and you lose your setting which is annoying. Other than that, it grinds perfectly well, very little clumping (the Rocky was a clump monster), quite fast, and consistent. I don't need to worry about the electronics, because it doesn't have any.


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