# Mouse squeak 43



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Can someone explain to me what all the fuss is about this grinder? Early reports said that it would go from one extreme to the other in na blink of an eye, but now it seems there are two burr sets. Unless you have the Turkish you cannot do espresso, but will that set let you go coarse enough for brewed variations.

\Will it let you grind into a pf? I understand the argument about it grinding evenly and better for lack of a better word, and its production of fines......but, what else makes it so damn good?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

You haven't got one! (Yet)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Can someone explain to me what all the fuss is about this grinder? Early reports said that it would go from one extreme to the other in na blink of an eye, but now it seems there are two burr sets. Unless you have the Turkish you cannot do espresso, but will that set let you go coarse enough for brewed variations.
> 
> \Will it let you grind into a pf? I understand the argument about it grinding evenly and better for lack of a better word, and its production of fines......but, what else makes it so damn good?


I'd take a step back & ask you, what do you expect from your espresso? Shot length, kind of roast level you prefer, etc?

It seems that most folk are pulling longer shots that you are typically used to & lighter roasted beans, with this grinder?

The EK43 is a coffee & spice grinder, Matt Perger refers to the use of "coffee" burrs.

Simply put, the idea is that it extracts most of the puck to the same level (or, more so than other grinders), rather than extracting little particles a lot & big particles less (a spread of extraction levels that just average out at a certain %). In turn you have to push the extraction further to get the sweetness, & with it greater clarity, which will normally mean more water pushed through the PF (40%-50% brew ratios?).

So, I'd just be wary as to whether "better" suits your specific expectations of espresso?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Ta mark, I honestly have no intention of getting one! It seemed to me that it is really suited to grinding vast amounts of coffee for retailers, at 20 gms per second, and then that the espresso capability was an afterthought, hence the Turkish burrs. It seems o have an on/off switch only with no timer or weight mechanism built in. Is this a classic example of something being outstanding in the environment in which is it built for, but perhaps being a fish out of water as an espresso grinder in the home?



MWJB said:


> I'd take a step back & ask you, what do you expect from your espresso? Shot length, kind of roast level you prefer, etc?
> 
> It seems that most folk are pulling longer shots that you are typically used to & lighter roasted beans, with this grinder?
> 
> ...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Question ....If you are pulling short ristretto type shots of darker roasted beans , then there doesn't seem to be as much benefit to it? Apart from I could grind me cardamom pods in it ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Ta mark, I honestly have no intention of getting one! It seemed to me that it is really suited to grinding vast amounts of coffee for retailers, at 20 gms per second, and then that the espresso capability was an afterthought, hence the Turkish burrs. It seems o have an on/off switch only with no timer or weight mechanism built in. Is this a classic example of something being outstanding in the environment in which is it built for, but perhaps being a fish out of water as an espresso grinder in the home?


Im im going to screen shot this post for posterity just in case....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

hahahaha......screenshot away matey! The K10/Hg One pairing are the absolute perfect compliment to each other and will not be going anywhere. I am going to put my brand new Mythos up for sale soon to rubber stamp that decision. I think the EK sounds like a fantastic machine, but just not in the home.....of course, I may be talking utter bollocks again!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Other than its size - I would argue that the EK43 is ideally suited to home use - single dosing being the only real option, zero grind retention & the best grind quality available.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> hahahaha......screenshot away matey! The K10/Hg One pairing are the absolute perfect compliment to each other and will not be going anywhere. I am going to put my brand new Mythos up for sale soon to rubber stamp that decision. I think the EK sounds like a fantastic machine, but just not in the home.....of course, I may be talking utter bollocks again!


presses screen print button again .........


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Gary, does it just have an on/off switch....and why is it suited to single dosing in particular please?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Question ....If you are pulling short ristretto type shots of darker roasted beans , then there doesn't seem to be as much benefit to it? Apart from I could grind me cardamom pods in it ?


James Hoffmann has commented on how "unpleasant" a


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

It does have an on of switch I believe!

Of the top 3 finalists in the UKBC superheats, 2 used an EK.

Matt Perger said after his performance last year that he used the normal coffee burrs as theyw ere the best after trying them all, so they are capable of espresso. When every other shop started buying an EK some of them went for the turkish burrs for whatever reason.

I really want to try and espresso from an EK, looks like I may be going to Manchester again this summer so will pop into NTP and see what all the fuss is about.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Yes just on and off from what Ive read. . Ideal for single dosing - the burrs are mounted a certain way and the grind path is straight down


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Gary, does it just have an on/off switch....and why is it suited to single dosing in particular please?


One reason might be that if you stick a half pound bag of beans in the hopper, it will be all be ground in a little over 10seconds! ;-)


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Its seems like clumping isnt an issue ; )


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Place your bet for the date when DFK reveals he has one : )


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Other than its size - I would argue that the EK43 is ideally suited to home use - single dosing being the only real option, zero grind retention & the best grind quality available.


Oh yes! Amen to that.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I think the EK sounds like a fantastic machine, but just not in the home.....of course, I may be talking utter bollocks again!


Marginally taller than a Robur but has a marginally smaller footprint. Can be modded onto a Santos base bringing down the hight considerably - there are some pics out there showing this.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Marginally taller than a Robur but has a marginally smaller footprint. Can be modded onto a Santos base bringing down the hight considerably - there are some pics out there showing this.


Bigger footprint than a robur......? Yipes


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

By single dossing, I was really referring to single shot dosing, ie 16 gms or so, rather than the ability in the home to munch half a pound in 10 seconds!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

single dosing = weigh out 16g , throw in 16g , out comes 16g. zero waste


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

aren't they incredibly heavy too?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Specifications:

Measurements: 30.3" H x 9.1" W 16.3" D (77cm H x 23cm W x 41cm D).

Weight: 53 pounds (24 kilograms).

Power: 115 Volts, 60 Hertz, 12 amp.

Motor: 1.75 hp.

Bean Hopper Capacity: 2.2 pounds (1000 grams).

Grinder Speed: 2.8-3.4 lbs/min (1200-1500 g/min).

Grinding disc diameter: 3.86 inches (98 millimeters).

Made in Germany.

compared to a Royal :

Power Supply: 900W

Boiler Capacity: 83mm burrs

Dimensions: 72cmH x 24cmW x 31cmD

Weight: 27kg


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

aaronb said:


> aren't they incredibly heavy too?


...'only' 24kg


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Specifications:
> 
> Measurements: 30.3" H x 9.1" W 16.3" D (77cm H x 23cm W x 41cm D).
> 
> ...


EK43 has nearly 50% more power than the Robur - outrageous


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Specifications:
> 
> compared to a Royal:
> 
> ...


Boiler capacity!!??.....that's a well kept secret


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Yeh 1.75 hp woooohoooo


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Yeh 1.75 hp woooohoooo


 I could power a hg1 with that ......

oh wait ...


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

aaronb said:


> It does have an on of switch I believe!
> 
> Of the top 3 finalists in the UKBC superheats, 2 used an EK.
> 
> ...


Talked to a couple of places with EKs. One started with standard burrs and went over to Turkish as they couldn't go fine enough for espresso. The other is sticking with standards burrs as it's mainly used for pour over. They also said they struggled using it for espresso.


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Talked to a couple of places with EKs. One started with standard burrs and went over to Turkish as they couldn't go fine enough for espresso. The other is sticking with standards burrs as it's mainly used for pour over. They also said they struggled using it for espresso.


Is this where the Matt Perger nutating tamp comes in to make it work for espresso?? or did he have the Turkish burrs also?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

kikapu said:


> Is this where the Matt Perger nutating tamp comes in to make it work for espresso?? or did he have the Turkish burrs also?


I'm positive he said he used normal burrs not Turkish, so it must be. He also dod 'filter shots' as his sig drink, so could be he just used a very different extraction ratio than we are used to.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

He repeatedly mentions "coffee" burrs on the blog, he used the nutating tamp on the espresso course.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Are 'coffee' burrs synonymous with 'Turkish'??


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Are 'coffee' burrs synonymous with 'Turkish'??


That's the £400 question! ;-)


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I don't think so, IIRC after one of his performances Steve L asks him about the grinder and if he uses turkish burrs and he says he doesn't, just general coffee burrs. You could probably find the interview assuming the wbc performances are still up on the streaming site they used!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Ouch! No, make that double ouch!!







. Guys in NTP, Madchester wouldn't serve espresso using the standard burrs. Question is, will the Turkish burrs grind coarse enough for pour over? That would be a big bonus.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I think the Turkish burrs at their coarsest setting would be in filter coffee range. Hard to know for sure without playing with one


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

He apparently used "Turkish" burrs in the 2012 Brewer's cup V60 routine.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> He apparently used "Turkish" burrs in the 2012 Brewer's cup V60 routine.


That's reassuring.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Be interesting though, if one of the places anyone has visited, can explain why they have plumped for the burr set they have, and if which ever set they have is capable ofgoing from one extreme to the other. Sounds like a Venn diagram to me!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Be interesting though, if one of the places anyone has visited, can explain why they have plumped for the burr set they have, and if which ever set they have is capable ofgoing from one extreme to the other. Sounds like a Venn diagram to me!


Rang NTP last week to confirm what set they are using. Was told in no uncertain terms that the Turkish set were the ones to go for if main use was espresso. Think there will be an area of overlap where the standard and Turkish burrs' grind is similar/same but, obviously, the Turkish are designed to go way finer. Price you pay is less range at the other, coarser, end. I would like to see a set of both side by side to see what the difference is in the way the burrs are configured. Anyone able to oblige with pics??


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mahlkonig+ek43+burr+set&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=80oCU5edFoeShQeG34HICw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1173&bih=550#q=+ek43+burr+jpg&tbm=isch&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=PUHVdv7cBToS0M%253A%3BLGIfbNLEddKVGM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ffarm7.staticflickr.com%252F6062%252F6127174740_2cb6055b50_b.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.flickr.com%252Fphotos%252Fbrowncoffeeco%252F6127174740%252F%3B1024%3B768

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mahlkonig+ek43+burr+set&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=80oCU5edFoeShQeG34HICw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1173&bih=550#q=+ek43+burr+jpg&tbm=isch&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=1q7yUntoQFQewM%253A%3BeHIj6Zt323EanM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ffarm7.staticflickr.com%252F6087%252F6139238250_2431f3d8d8_o.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.flickr.com%252Fphotos%252Fbrowncoffeeco%252F6139238250%252F%3B768%3B1024


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Thanks David - I've seen those pics - frustratingly can't find a set of pics showing the Turkish alongside the EK's standard burrs.


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

There is of course an easy solution to the Turkish vs Standard burrs debate.... have both


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

So, really I suppose you could sum up by saying, 'looks good on paper. The big knobs are making the right noises (surprise surprise) but until you get one, you will not know if it really can do what you want it to!'


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

patrick " has noticed your avatar and is claiming copyright "

I ( boots ) am concerned that you are casting aspersions on the members , members.....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

You can make fantastic brewed coffee with a grind not far off espresso, I suspect with a more uniform grind (which the EK does better than anything) you could use espresso grind.

Infact at Workshop coffee the guy making the aeropress said the grind was finer than they use for espresso, although the steep time was seconds not minutes (ideal for a faster workflow)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> patrick " has noticed your avatar and is claiming copyright "
> 
> I ( boots ) am concerned that you are casting aspersions on the members , members.....


Will this suit the members members better then?


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Isn't it all down to burr sets? It would help if Mahl could manufacture a smaller burr set with a similar cut / profile, which can be mounted in standard grinders. Heck I would buy one to play with on the ZR71.

Regards,

T.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

dsc said:


> Isn't it all down to burr sets? It would help if Mahl could manufacture a smaller burr set with a similar cut / profile, which can be mounted in standard grinders. Heck I would buy one to play with on the ZR71.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


I'd be all over a 64mm set cut like that, I'm tempted to find myself some Azkoyen Capriccio burrs to try in the RR55 as they look a lot more like the OEM ones for the OD and MAC 64 models.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dsc said:


> Isn't it all down to burr sets? It would help if Mahl could manufacture a smaller burr set with a similar cut / profile, which can be mounted in standard grinders. Heck I would buy one to play with on the ZR71.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


Isn't it to do with the burrs size , rather than the cut ?


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Dunno, I don't know a lot about burr cuts / size vs. particle distribution, so it can really be anything. I always assumed it's the shape / cut which dictates the particle size.

Regards,

T.


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## CallumT (Aug 23, 2013)

It's all about the cut, bigger diameter means you can cut less 'viciously' increasing the grind consistency. I've personally used the EK43T for both espresso on a pump driven commercial machine and on my Londinium at home. And note the taste benefits....

I'm happy to state that I will be buying one, because I believe they are a step forward in both espresso quality, extraction consistency, versatility and then reduction in wastage (single dose and rentention benefits).

All grinding will create fines, the act of breaking anything will always give you a particle size distribution - the key with the EK is modal.

The EK isn't perfect though, the dosing routine isn't the same push button on demand and the even-ness of extraction can be a pain at times (grind into a cup, shake into jam funnel resting on pf)

The big question for me is Turkish or Coffee burrs, which I'm still undecided although I have been ensured that a properly zero'd set of coffee burrs will produce an espresso grind with a better distribution than that of the Turkish along with less fines at brew grind sizes.

All this who-har about size is relative - it is bigger than a robur with the full sized K30 hopper but who on earth is ever going to use that! I just use a v60 cone

Food for thought.....

















Callum


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## drude (Apr 22, 2013)

So Callum, can you weigh in on the suitability of the EK for short drinks with the L1? Say 17>24 or less. What kind of ratios were you working with?


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## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

Callum have you done a video of the EK yet?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Will this suit the members members better then?


Are you the one in the middle, David??


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Nope, I am behind her and responsible for her smile


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Its coffee versus turkish burrs then. This is the ultimate question


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Does anyone have a photo of turkish vs. standard? curious what the cut differences are.

Regards,

T.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

dsc said:


> Dunno, I don't know a lot about burr cuts / size vs. particle distribution, so it can really be anything. I always assumed it's the shape / cut which dictates the particle size.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.


Regarding burr cut rather than size when I 1st got the RR55 I bought a set of Rossi/Brasilia burrs not knowing at the time that the burr cut was different for the OD models and MAC 64, so I installed the burrs when they arrived had them in for a couple of days and thought the grinder was FUBAR, it was taking far longer to grind 17g than the old burrs were and it seemed to not be throwing the coffee out of the burr chamber fast enough to get through the small flap covering it. As I found out I had the burrs intended for the dosered Brasilia/Rossi grinders, Dave generously sent me a set of used genuine Rossi burrs, which have since been passed on to Marcuswar, and I was having the same issues so I went back to the OEM burrs that came with the grinder and all was well with the world they worked better than the others even though a bit worn.

This brings me to the issue that made the Group Buy on burrs for them take so long, as the OEM burrs were no longer available other than the ones for the doser version LF had to correct their worldwide catalogue, sort through their inventory of the part they had received as burrs for the RR55 and MAC 64 and then find some that offered the same performance as the unobtainium OEM ones.

The major difference between the 2 burr sets is the number of bean breaking surfaces 12 for the doser version 16 for the OD and the teeth for the OD are also finer but deeper cut.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

CallumT said:


> The big question for me is Turkish or Coffee burrs, which I'm still undecided although I have been ensured that a properly zero'd set of coffee burrs will produce an espresso grind with a better distribution than that of the Turkish along with less fines at brew grind sizes.
> 
> Callum


Really helpful Callum - thanks.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Anyway ...... The ek43









As the member with the most any actual real life experience on one , Callum I'd like to know about the EK43 grinder , how it tastes , if you were pulling side by side shots v the mythos and pulling longer shots .


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## CallumT (Aug 23, 2013)

Here is the only photo of the two burrsets I have found side by side....









This doesn't show much and my general assumption is in the fact that the Turkish will be a flatter burr with harsher initial breakers to then mill pieces down to a fine particle size whereas the coffee burr will have a larger ramp and just generally mill the beans over a larger effective distance. It is strange though as the 'pattern' looks very similar I guess the difference is in geometric dimensions in the 'through the page plane' of this photo - in laymans terms rendering the image a relatively weak talking point.

I've tried a variiety of shot parameter on the EK43T with varying coffees and agIn with both pump and spring lever espresso machines - cult of done current version seemed to shine at work (pump) @ 19.5g D > 40g Y > 30 sec T - it was a trade off in body but the clarity in the flavours are comparable to that of trying a filter coffee. Just because perger was running these large doses and yields doesn't mean it's only useful in this manner , you only have to look at barista competition regulations to see he has to make something along the lines of a 45 to 55g yield ("1oz into each cup beneath a spouted portafilter" - rings a bell)

I had the EK with me at home for 24 hours so unfortunately photos and a heavy caffeine dose is all I have to show for it (sorry!), but I can confirm that you can run shorter shots, but in reality the ek allows the bigger yields due to the even-ness of extraction. What will likely happen is you'll pull shots 2 to 3 grams longer than with previous grinder to attain a similar albeit hella clearer cup profile.

I was running three espresso and three filter profile roasts they were;

SQM Sweetshop - 18.8g D - 34g Y - 45s T (10 infusion inclusive) in a 20g VST

SQM Kochere (didn't pull much wanted a little more rest) 18.8g D - 30g Y - 38s T (10 infusion inclusive) in a 20g VST

HasBean IMM Natural Pacamara (Nicaragua) 15.4g D - 32g Y - 40s T (10 infusion inclusive) in a 18g VST

In terms of filter I had just a few bit and bobs lying around from SQM and Workshop - not going into the recipes but the main test was back to back filter to espresso grinding aswell as differing coffees espresso pulling. And all I was using was 3 to 4 beans to clean off the burrs.

This is abit of an achievement I think for home users









Fingers crossed this is coherent, haha


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Thanks again Callum. Think your review will create more interest/curiosity about the EK43.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Callum can you drop a photo of the throat of the EK43? I'm curious how the beans are fed, is it like on the rest of the Mahls ie. via an auger screw?

I need to start experimenting with flat burrs on the ZR71, just need to get some parts made to convert from conical to flat.

Regards,

T.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dsc said:


> Callum can you drop a photo of the throat of the EK43? I'm curious how the beans are fed, is it like on the rest of the Mahls ie. via an auger screw?
> 
> I need to start experimenting with flat burrs on the ZR71, just need to get some parts made to convert from conical to flat.
> 
> ...


Is it ready for a photo yet ????? Or a clip ?


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Not yet I'm afraid









Regards,

T.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

CallumT said:


> Here is the only photo of the two burrsets I have found side by side....
> 
> View attachment 5566
> 
> ...


Thanks for this .

1. So you have established the 'Turkish burrs' CAN be used for Filter coffees.

2. Its unclear at this stage if the 'Coffee burrs' are BETTER for espresso , however they also (obviously) are suited to filter coffee.


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## CallumT (Aug 23, 2013)

That's right, I know perger specifically mentions coffee burrs and I may see If I can contact NTP to see if they still have their set of coffee burrs, if so ill either buy and try or I'll see if they'll let me just have a play.

I will get the requested throat shot of the burrset but I is fairly simple to explain the rotating burr mounted on the drive shaft has an auger to feed beans closer to the dial where the other stationary burr is mounted. so all you see is a wire wound auger around a drive shaft. IMHO there a faff internally I've cleaned it down twice and it's taken ages because it's abit of a faff in general and if you do it wrong the dial won't move the burrset to adjust the grind size properly.

Brews off the Turkish burrset aren't too shabby and as mentioned earlier two grinders at that capability for £1500 .... Bargain. Might see if I can borrow the grinder again on Sunday , I spent a lot of my shift today profiling filter profile roasts for 19g to 70g 'lungo's' - really interesting stuff taste suprising ally good, amazing clarity with still a strange thick creamy mouthfeel.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Cheers Callum, I was asking about the throat / auger feed as that's what I have on a Guatemala Mahl and it's not exactly great for single dosing, you always get a few beans stuck, not being moved by the auger. Depending on the size of the beans it can be even around 0.5g difference between what you put in and what comes out. Also the bottom of the exit chute isn't exactly great and fine ground coffee tends to accumulate on that end, with heaps coming out after a month of so of daily use. Just something to keep in mind, unless Mahl made those to elements better somehow.

Regards,

T.


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