# Replacing bean to cup machine.



## bscott (Mar 8, 2015)

We have been using a Gaggia Syncrony Digital bean to cup machine for the past 10+ years and about a week ago it brewed its last cup.

Neither of us are coffee geeks but we are aware that the coffee produced by the Gaggia fell far short of what is achievable at home and we weren't too sad when it expired.

We have been getting through 250g of beans in 5-7 days with me drinking espresso and black americanos and my wife preferring lattes and cappuccinos.

We live in a very hard water area and have been using Brita jug filtered water in the Gaggia.

Going forward we plan to purchase a semi-automatic espresso machine and separate grinder to take the place of the Gaggia and to buy decent beans instead of the Waitrose beans we have been using.

I have drawn up a list of the things we would be looking for (in no particular order):-


Good quality components and built to last

Optimal results obtainable without modification

Ability to produce consistently good results without learning black arts*

Easy to use

Reliable

Easy maintenance and cleaning

Flexible enough to allow experimentation

Option to plumb in would be nice


*We realise that we are going to have to learn some barista skills but we don't want to be hampered by the equipment we use.

As far as budget is concerned I don't want to spend more than would be sensible given that we are both new to this but would be willing to spend around £2.5k if necessary and would prefer to spend the money now rather than get upgraditis in the not too distant future.

I realise grinding is a very important part of the process and expect to spend up to £600 on a grinder.

I have pretty well ruled out single boiler machines without temperature control since I don't think they would meet the 2nd, 3rd and 4th requirements.

Things I am uncertain about are:-


Doser or doserless grinder

Double boiler or heat exchanger espresso machine

Which grinder

Which espresso machine


I am just over 1 hour away from Wellingborough and hope to visit Bella Barista in the next week.

Any advice and guidance would be very welcome.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

£2500 is a enough to get you most things , good dual boiler and a good on demand grinder...presuambly the £2500 includes the £600 for the grinder?

On demand may be easier for you to load up , set a dose via time and get some easy consistency ( are you willing to get second hand fro a grinder ?

If you are looking to spend that much cash , id invest in some one to one training to learn the simple dark arts of dose , tamp and grind ......

There are a ton of dual boiler machines at BB within your reach , you will get a few recommendations , mostly based on what people currently own ( not saying this is a bad thing , but rocket owners will shout rocket , brewtus owners , the the lever boys will pipe up )

At least BB gives you an option to try each machine out and see how being a home barista is gonna be a little bit of a learning curve ..


----------



## bscott (Mar 8, 2015)

Thanks for the reply Mrboots2u.

The £2500 would include the grinder which I would prefer to be new.

I would prefer to spend a lot less than the £2.5k which is about the maximum I would feel comfortable with but whatever I buy I wouldn't want to feel the need to upgrade within a few years.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If your heart is set on new for both then

Brewtus + zenith = £1700

£600 for your grinder limits you a little , especially as BB dont stock a huge amount in that range ( zenith , mini mazzer )

£600 reconditioned form a reliable source ( off here say ) gets you a but more

A good dual boiler should see you though your coffee life , tend to find people upgrade the grinder more often that not ...

Have you read this

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?17071-Grinders-what-do-you-get-for-your-money


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

BB will sort you out! They have a decent selection of machines and grinders and really know their stuff.

I have a Rocket Giotto HX machine and a Eureka e65 grinder that I bought second hand from somebody on here although it was originally sourced from BB. Not only did they transfer the warranty but have been extremely helpful with advice.

If I hadn't bought the Rocket I was looking very hard at the Profitec 700 and the Rocket R58. Was also looking at the Ceado and Compak grinders. There are other options! If you go for either of the machines I mentioned you could up your grinder budget quite a bit and still stay within the 2.5k limit. A visit to BB is exactly what you need.

One point I would pick up on though is the water. I use a Brita jug to feed the kettle and, to be honest, it scales up almost as much as using non-filtered water. For this reason, I strongly recommend you either consider plumbing in with a heavy duty calcium reducing filter or use Tesco's Ashbeck bottled. I reckon it's cheaper and easier to do the latter. (12 litres for just over two quid.)


----------



## bscott (Mar 8, 2015)

I have read http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread...for-your-money which led me to believe that £600 would be a reasonable budget for a new grinder.

I'd better go and read it again!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

bscott said:


> I have read http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread...for-your-money which led me to believe that £600 would be a reasonable budget for a new grinder.
> 
> I'd better go and read it again!


Yeah it is ...

Sorry just making sure you've read it ....

Ill leave it to others to recommend stuff that have now


----------



## bscott (Mar 8, 2015)

Rob666 said:


> One point I would pick up on though is the water. I use a Brita jug to feed the kettle and, to be honest, it scales up almost as much as using non-filtered water. For this reason, I strongly recommend you either consider plumbing in with a heavy duty calcium reducing filter or use Tesco's Ashbeck bottled. I reckon it's cheaper and easier to do the latter. (12 litres for just over two quid.)


We also use the Brita jug water in our kettle and that scales up as well. A heavy duty calcium reducing filter sounds rather expensive so perhaps I should forget about plumbing in and use bottled water as you suggested.


----------



## bscott (Mar 8, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Yeah it is ...
> 
> Sorry just making sure you've read it ....
> 
> Ill leave it to others to recommend stuff that have now


That's a relief!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

bscott said:


> That's a relief!


the important thing is , if your going from bean to cup , to manuall gear , then get some training , doesn't matter if you spend £1000 or £2000 on machines , you still need someone to show you how to use it . it wont't be a simple as Pushing a button or a lever and great coffee coming out .

There are still plenty of ways for the barista to mess it up









A £1000 dual boiler still needs the same basic , dose , tamp , skills that a £2000 one does as does a £200 single boiler machine


----------



## eyesblue (Jan 1, 2015)

i was in the same boat when my gaggia titanium passed away but im in the process of ordering an expobar double boiler (which can be plumbed in) and a eureka mignon mk 2 grinder, this forum and its members have been fab in helping my choice, god knows what will happen when i try using it all lol


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

eyesblue said:


> i was in the same boat when my gaggia titanium passed away but im in the process of ordering an expobar double boiler (which can be plumbed in) and a eureka mignon mk 2 grinder, this forum and its members have been fab in helping my choice, god knows what will happen when i try using it all lol


Would you consider a second hand grinder?


----------



## bscott (Mar 8, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> the important thing is , if your going from bean to cup , to manuall gear , then get some training , doesn't matter if you spend £1000 or £2000 on machines , you still need someone to show you how to use it . it wont't be a simple as Pushing a button or a lever and great coffee coming out


I'm OK with that and look forward to learning. Part of the reason that I want ease of use is that I want something that my wife can use without too much difficulty and without too much training.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sage oracle


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

bscott said:


> I'm OK with that and look forward to learning. Part of the reason that I want ease of use is that I want something that my wife can use without too much difficulty and without too much training.


Is she going to bb with you?


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

to be honest without the need to upgrade get a rotary plumbed in expobar dual boiler at around £1200, then for your £600 you could get a top notch used grinder or if you want brand new you could opt for a zenith, I have a couple of macap mxds available that are boxed and brand new, they are stepless and 75mm burr grinders, which I would let go for less than a zenith. Alternatively if you are happy with used and a doser, your budget will get a fantastic grinder


----------



## bscott (Mar 8, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Is she going to bb with you?


She was going to leave it up to me but I've persuaded her that she needs to come along as well.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

bscott said:


> She was going to leave it up to me but I've persuaded her that she needs to come along as well.


That is a very good idea. Get her to try a machine and a grinder, she might not want as much effort into making coffee as you do....


----------



## bscott (Mar 8, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> ...she might not want as much effort into making coffee as you do....


She definitely won't and that is going to be the problem: choosing something that she will be able to use without too much effort to produce something better than we've been used to and at the same time satisfy me as an aspiring barista.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

bscott said:


> She definitely won't and that is going to be the problem: choosing something that she will be able to use without too much effort to produce something better than we've been used to and at the same time satisfy me as an aspiring barista.


Sage oracle

Your two aspirations are likely to be incompatible

Who will compromise?

Or will you end with something she just won't use.... Or sends back


----------



## bscott (Mar 8, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Sage oracle
> 
> Your two aspirations are likely to be incompatible
> 
> ...


This worries me a lot.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

bscott said:


> This worries me a lot.


If she won't grind and tamp then she won't be able to use the machine you buy...

Google sage oracle


----------



## bscott (Mar 8, 2015)

coffeechap said:


> to be honest without the need to upgrade get a rotary plumbed in expobar dual boiler at around £1200, then for your £600 you could get a top notch used grinder or if you want brand new you could opt for a zenith, I have a couple of macap mxds available that are boxed and brand new, they are stepless and 75mm burr grinders, which I would let go for less than a zenith. Alternatively if you are happy with used and a doser, your budget will get a fantastic grinder


I need to see what is available new first.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

factor in some training as well as this would ensure that you both can use the equipment properly.


----------



## bscott (Mar 8, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> If she won't grind and tamp then she won't be able to use the machine you buy...
> 
> Google sage oracle


We have watched some videos of making coffee with a home machine (I think it was a Rocket R58) so she realises what the mechanics are and she's happy with that. It's just that she won't want to invest as much time as I will in perfecting the skills involved and will want to rely on the basics.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

bscott said:


> We have watched some videos of making coffee with a home machine (I think it was a Rocket R58) so she realises what the mechanics are and she's happy with that. It's just that she won't want to invest as much time as I will in perfecting the skills involved and will want to rely on the basics.


Ok well thats a start. I'd still get her to try a machine and make a drink at bb.....

Training will help ( one 2 one on your machine )

Get an on demand grinder

Perhaps an espro calibrated tamper

Perhaps something volumetric like a sage dB..


----------



## bscott (Mar 8, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ok well thats a start. I'd still get her to try a machine and make a drink at bb.....
> 
> Training will help ( one 2 one on your machine )
> 
> ...


From my previous reading I had thought an on demand grinder would be best providing it doesn't make too much mess.

I haven't thought much about the tamper itself other than we will need one.

I've just had a look at the espro tamper and it looks like a good thing for novices like us. Price a bit eye-watering though (for a tamper).


----------



## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

Fracino Ariete and Luxomatic on demand grinder £1400 

Andy


----------



## Kevin29 (Mar 1, 2015)

My wife and I visited Bella Barista 3 weeks ago (travelling from South Wales a 3.5 hour journey but well worth it). We bought our original Quickmill Silvana from them but wanted to change to a dual boiler. Claudette is extremely knowledgeable and helpful. I would explain your needs to her and see what she recommends.

I can recommend the Profitec 700 which is what we bought.


----------



## Chockymonster (Jan 21, 2013)

I had a similar budget and went for an Alex Duetto and a Zenith 65e. I wanted a rotary pumped machine for those early morning coffees, the vibe pump tended to wake my son (but he'd sleep through the grinder!)

the 65e is on demand and makes very little mess.

Claudette will look after you, she was really helpful.


----------



## bscott (Mar 8, 2015)

Kevin29 said:


> My wife and I visited Bella Barista 3 weeks ago (travelling from South Wales a 3.5 hour journey but well worth it). We bought our original Quickmill Silvana from them but wanted to change to a dual boiler. Claudette is extremely knowledgeable and helpful. I would explain your needs to her and see what she recommends.
> 
> I can recommend the Profitec 700 which is what we bought.


We are hoping to go later this week.


----------



## bscott (Mar 8, 2015)

Chockymonster said:


> I had a similar budget and went for an Alex Duetto and a Zenith 65e. I wanted a rotary pumped machine for those early morning coffees, the vibe pump tended to wake my son (but he'd sleep through the grinder!)
> 
> the 65e is on demand and makes very little mess.
> 
> Claudette will look after you, she was really helpful.


What did you have previously?


----------



## bscott (Mar 8, 2015)

Kevin29 said:


> ......We bought our original Quickmill Silvana from them but wanted to change to a dual boiler. .......


How long did you have your Quickmill Silvana?


----------



## Kevin29 (Mar 1, 2015)

We got it December 13. Super machine. Really moved me on from the previous machines.


----------



## Chockymonster (Jan 21, 2013)

bscott said:


> What did you have previously?


A Gaggia Classic and an Iberital MC-2 grinder. A big step up!


----------



## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

coffeechap said:


> to be honest without the need to upgrade get a rotary plumbed in expobar dual boiler at around £1200, then for your £600 you could get a top notch used grinder or if you want brand new you could opt for a zenith, I have a couple of macap mxds available that are boxed and brand new, they are stepless and 75mm burr grinders, which I would let go for less than a zenith. Alternatively if you are happy with used and a doser, your budget will get a fantastic grinder


Which model Expobar would this be coffeechap?

Is it tank and plumbed or just plumbed?


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Plumb only rotary pump


----------



## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> Plumb only rotary pump


Same as yours?

so does a rotary always have to be plumbed?


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Yeah, same as mine. It doesn't have a tank but you can run the hose into a bottle and it'll work ok.


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

No, a rotary pump doesn't always have to be plumbed. In the Expo there just isn't room for the larger rotary pump and a reservoir.


----------



## Chockymonster (Jan 21, 2013)

Mr O said:


> Same as yours?
> 
> so does a rotary always have to be plumbed?


No, it doesn't. both the Rocket and the Duetto can run on tank supply, I've just bought the last bits needed to plumb mine in, I've been running it on bottled water since I received it.


----------



## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

The road to great coffee can be a rocky one ! I didn't realise the effort involved in producing good espresso , good machine , good grinder and a good choice of beans ..... Then the fun starts !

My wife just wouldn't do with all the faffing about dialling in grinders weighing coffee weighing shots she would rather use instant.

It's a hobby I enjoy but dissapointing at times.


----------



## twotone (Jan 13, 2015)

I went from a Gaggia Classic and a MC2 ( both for seven years) to an Expobar DB rotary plumbed and Fiorenzato F4e Nano, different world, huge huge improvement in every which way.

The Expobar is as easy as pie to use and is fantastic at making coffee and steaming milk and also, making tea. The grinder is a dream to use, I hardly move the grinder wheel for different beans, it's literally 5mm each way depending on the beans and then you just make very very slight adjustments.

The Expobar DB rotary is all the espresso machine that you'll ever need.

I love mine and I agonised for months about making the step up from the Classic to 'something else' then just bit the bullet and bought both the grinder and the DB at the same time new.

BTW, my wife will not even look at the DB/Grinder so like the previous poster's wife she drinks instant, can't even get her to make tea from the DB.


----------

