# HX or DB?



## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

I was under the impression you could only steam milk whilst the machine does the espresso if you have a dual boiler right?

So how does this guy manage it on a HX?






Even the Lux is a HX let alone the non-lux edition.

Stumped.

Does this mean I don't need a Rocket 58 and an appartmento would do ?


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?27356&p=361321#post361321


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?35557&p=466431#post466431


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

thesmileyone said:


> I was under the impression you could only steam milk whilst the machine does the espresso if you have a dual boiler right?
> 
> So how does this guy manage it on a HX?


Just google Heat Exchange espresso machine and checkout the design. In summary, the boiler is kept under pressure at all times, so steam is always readily available. Water is drawn directly from the source (tank or plumbed in), via a pipe that goes through the boiler hence Heat Exchanger.

Hope that helps.


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## RDC8 (Dec 6, 2016)

The beauty of a quality HX machine is the ability to steam AND extract at the same time.

The steam is produced inside the boiler and is stored there under pressure until the steam tap is opened; while the water for the coffee is heated as it passes through the copper pipe inside the boiler; thus you can have steam and hot water at the same time from the HX.

The ability to effectively steam while pulling the shot will depend on;

1. the capacity of the boiler

2. the pressure the steam is kept at

3. the efficiency of the boiler to produce more steam to replace that which you are using

4. the number of back-to-back drinks requiring steamed milk

Can't comment on the two models you mentioned, but my Rocket Cellini (HX model) has no problem keeping up with a line of back-to-back milk-based drinks. From what I can see, the DB machines allow for you to tweak the temperatures of the steam boiler and the coffee boiler independently.

Hope this helps


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rocket, Rocket, Rocket......why do these have such a status.......if you open your eyes a little there are many many other contenders


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Great video of how not to make coffee


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

I'm actually looking at a Profitec 700 if I can justify spending £800 more than a 300.... but reading this thread I wonder if I even require a DB.


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## RDC8 (Dec 6, 2016)

Agree. Perhaps owners of other HX machines could comment on how well their brands cope with concurrent steaming and extracting.

Might also be nice to hear from DB users to see so what extent they actually exercise control over the two boilers.



dfk41 said:


> Rocket, Rocket, Rocket......why do these have such a status.......if you open your eyes a little there are many many other contenders


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

I don't have any experience with the Apartmento but I'd be surprised if it couldn't comfortably produce enough steam for 3 or 4 drinks back to back. It's not common for HX machine in general to be lacking in steam when used in a domestic capacity. My Fracino Classico steams like a train, although admittedly this isn't strictly a prosumer machine like the Apartmento.

I think the reason Rocket is always one of the top brands mentioned is because they are so aesthetically pleasing. Most people drool over them although there are alternatives as has been said.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I may be incorrect here though I believe in general HX machines are even more accomplished steamers than DBs due to boiler size.

My ecm mechanika steams all day long, whether I'm brewing at the same time or not.

Big boiler, high quality components, a well tuned heat exchanger, e61 group head - these are rock solid in temp stability, very hard to beat.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> Rocket, Rocket, Rocket......why do these have such a status.......if you open your eyes a little there are many many other contenders


because they look nice


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Both DB an HX can produce good coffee , they are both capable of making steam . The biggest disadvantage of the hx is it will use more water .


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

Interesting. I had written HX off completely due to people saying you need to do something with flushing it to control temp?

I know currently there are 3 requirements for me

E61

Rotary pump / low noise.

Water tank preferably with option to plumb in the future.

I have all the time in the world to decide what to buy.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thecatlinux said:


> Both DB an HX can produce good coffee , they are both capable of making steam . The biggest disadvantage of the hx is it will use more water .


How so?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

kennyboy993 said:


> How so?


Cooling flushes.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Cooling flushes.


Mine are 50ml at the most, DB warming flushes much smaller?


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> I may be incorrect here though I believe in general HX machines are even more accomplished steamers than DBs due to boiler size.
> 
> My ecm mechanika steams all day long, whether I'm brewing at the same time or not.
> 
> Big boiler, high quality components, a well tuned heat exchanger, e61 group head - these are rock solid in temp stability, very hard to beat.


Same Kenny, can steam all day with the Elektronika, same machine basically though eh lol.


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

You do have to flush but unless you are using bottled water I honestly wouldn't include this in your decision as its no problem, heats your cup.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

kennyboy993 said:


> Mine are 50ml at the most, DB warming flushes much smaller?


Mine is 20ml or so. Works for me. 50ml is good too. I had a Cellini (Rocket) and it was 150ml!

Looks like you tuned it well!


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Mine is 20ml or so. Works for me. 50ml is good too. I had a Cellini (Rocket) and it was 150ml!
> 
> Looks like you tuned it well!


Fair play - 20ml is significantly less isn't it, especially if you're tank fed.

Yeah seems these ECM HXs have continued to evolve.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

kennyboy993 said:


> Fair play - 20ml is significantly less isn't it, especially if you're tank fed.
> 
> Yeah seems these ECM HXs have continued to evolve.


Just measured my flush: 15ml.


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## stevenh (May 15, 2014)

The Musica doesn't really need much of a flush at all (with the gigleurs installed) temperature is quite stable and if left for a long time just needs a very short flush if the stat is set high.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Nice ;-)

To potential HX purchasers - I should add 50ml is the maximum for me, that was after 2 hour idle.

It can easily be 20-25ml sometimes.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

stevenh said:


> The Musica doesn't really need much of a flush at all (with the gigleurs installed) temperature is quite stable and if left for a long time just needs a very short flush if the stat is set high.


Nice. What do the gigleurs do?


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## stevenh (May 15, 2014)

Keeps the temperature nice and stable


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## PaulL (May 5, 2014)

Another argument is that the internals of an HX are running hotter than DB as you only heat the steam boiler when you need it (assuming it has this facility), HX grouphead gaskets need replacing more frequently too. When I moved from Alex MKII HX to Alex Duetto I could a taste in the difference in the shots.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

My vote goes for DB + PID for temp control and stability. Brewtus or Sage DB look better value than Rockets to me but not such good lookers.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Obnic said:


> My vote goes for DB + PID for temp control and stability. Brewtus or Sage DB look better value than Rockets to me but not such good lookers.


Sage DB with rotary pump and plumbing in option - now that would be something.


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

A DB has almost double the amount of electronics and parts as an HX and is therefore aproximately half as reliable. A simple machine such as an L1 will last almost forever. A complex DB has a much shorter working life - parts may become hard to get. - you could be lucky - or not. Unless you are a "super taster" an HX is good enough for most people particularly if you are only drinking milk bases drinks.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

NickR said:


> A DB has almost double the amount of electronics and parts as an HX and is therefore aproximately half as reliable. A simple machine such as an L1 will last almost forever. A complex DB has a much shorter working life - parts may become hard to get. - you could be lucky - or not. Unless you are a "super taster" an HX is good enough for most people particularly if you are only drinking milk bases drinks.


In that case we should all be buying La Pavonis. Will last a lifetime and components are easy to source. Why would anyone buy a Vesuvius or any other pressure profile machine? Don't get me wrong, I get your point, but I don't think that's the idea here. You could argue also that in a dual boiler the parts are almost duplicated: two probes, two heaters, 1 (or 2) controllers, two boilers. What if they stop making the heating element for an specific machine, whether or not it has 1 or two boilers?


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