# Coffee tastes terrible with Sage Oracle Touch



## Sim7 (Aug 16, 2021)

Hello,

I'm newbie here but have read a few posts in order to solve my problem.

I have a Sage Oracle Touch but no matter what I do (or don't do)! the espresso it produces is terrible, absolutely terrible. I've lowered the dose to 19g, played with grind settings, brew time but just can't get a decent cup of coffee. Maybe I overestimated my barista skills and this isn't the machine for me and should just stick with De'Longhi.

Anyway, before I give up on the machine, I would like to know whether I can overcome these issues and if so, how? Can anyone kindly offer any advice/pointers? I've been using fresh coffee beans from Rave and have been for years with my previous De'Longhi machine.

Thanks


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## SO8 (May 24, 2020)

Sim7 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm newbie here but have read a few posts in order to solve my problem.
> 
> ...


 Try a few different beans ? I stopped using what i used with my old machine as it didn't seem to taste as good. I found a new bean I liked &#8230; so for interest tried it in the old machine i still had and it was horrid in comparison! I'm not sure why but it was &#8230; so stick with it and try a few alternatives?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

You need to provide more information if you're going to get any help.

You've mentioned your dose, but what is your yield (weight of shot out), you've mentioned different times but not what those times are....

Are you filling the hopper or single dosing? Are you weighing the dose in the basket or are you going off time to grind? Are you purging the grinder of old grinds between grind setting changes and after not being used for a while? Are you using pressurised 'dual wall' baskets or normal baskets? Have you let the machine heat up properly?


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## Sim7 (Aug 16, 2021)

Thanks for your reply.

I've tried a few different beans from Rave but same results with each one no matter how much tweaking I do so I'm not convinced the issue is with the beans.

Rob1, weight of shot out I've measured in ml, is 65ml double shot. Beans are all in the bean hopper and the dose in is 18-19g and I have the purged the machine of leftover beans when changing them but not in between grind settings. The baskets I'm using are the ones supplied with the machine, the single wall baskets.

I'm convinced it's something I'm doing wrong but I can't think what so hopefully someone can help.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Sim7 said:


> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> I've tried a few different beans from Rave but same results with each one no matter how much tweaking I do so I'm not convinced the issue is with the beans.
> 
> ...


 Ok....well you're brewing a longish ratio then (is that 65ml including crema?) weighing your shot would help you get consistency. You do need to purge between grind setting changes for the changes to actually take effect and get a consistent grind in the basket and also at least at the start of the a new day if not every time you make a shot assuming they're a few hours apart. Not purging the grinder properly especially between grind setting changes will cause nothing but trouble and you need to be running the grinder when adjusting finer (presumably there's a gate in the hopper that can be closed to prevent the beans from being wasted when you do this).

So in what way is the espresso terrible? Sour, bitter, tasteless, watery?


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## Sim7 (Aug 16, 2021)

Okay, so stupid question but how do I purge the grinder? I'm assuming I run it and grind into the portafilter for a certain length of time, is that correct? I don't think there's a gate in the hopper to stop any wastage of beans.

It's 65ml including cream. Is that too long? As for the taste, it's usually very sour but I've also had bitter shots. It's not watery but often smells ashy.


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## Sim7 (Aug 16, 2021)

Sorry to clarify, when I have purged the beans, I grind into the portafilter for a few seconds. Is that the right way to do it? Also thank you for taking the time to respond.


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## Sim7 (Aug 16, 2021)

I've read a few more posts on here and on google. I purged the beans, selected a finer grind setting, extracted using scales and stopped when I got 40g got a 1:2 ratio but still tasted sour.

Think I'll return it and get a De'Longhi Prima Donna for ease of use which is what I initially set out to buy but got swayed by Sage!


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## japester79 (Feb 25, 2018)

Sour sounds under extracted to my limited knowledge.

How long did the shot take to pull? 30-35 seconds should be a good starting point&#8230;


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## Sim7 (Aug 16, 2021)

It took 25 seconds to pull the shot but just tried 30 seconds and got a yield of 98g. Clearly this isn't the machine for me!


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## Evergreen88 (Jun 7, 2021)

Sim7 said:


> It took 25 seconds to pull the shot but just tried 30 seconds and got a yield of 98g. Clearly this isn't the machine for me!


 Keep grinding finer until you get 1:2 ratio in 25-30 seconds. If you got 98 grams in just 30 seconds you are grinding waaay too coarse!


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## Sim7 (Aug 16, 2021)

Evergreen88 said:


> Keep grinding finer until you get 1:2 ratio in 25-30 seconds. If you got 98 grams in just 30 seconds you are grinding waaay too coarse!


 Just tried that and went all the way down to a grind of 6 but still getting around 90g out. Really not sure what's going here.


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## Evergreen88 (Jun 7, 2021)

Sim7 said:


> Just tried that and went all the way down to a grind of 6 but still getting around 90g out. Really not sure what's going here.


 I am not sure how that integrated grinder works, I had a sage smart grinder pro and I had to adjust the burrs to grind finer because even on the lowest setting it was not grinding fine enough for certain beans. I would check if that's something that can be done on your machine as well.


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Try dosing a double shot but pouring a single?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Sim7 said:


> Just tried that and went all the way down to a grind of 6 but still getting around 90g out. Really not sure what's going here.


 You need to grind finer.

A lower ratio won't help you avoid sourness. A 1:2 is probably going to be difficult to extract well. If you like the strength of the 65ml shots you were pulling before (however much they weigh) then aim for that. If the shot is sour and running for 25 seconds you need to grind finer....don't limit yourself to 25 or 30 second extractions, let it take as long as it needs to get past sourness. If you're getting a 90g yield I'm surprised it's still sour, unless it's really gushing through.

Make sure you're purging properly....you do that by running the grinder and throwing away the old stale grinds that were retained around the burrs and in the chute. The variation in yield you're getting between 25 and 30 seconds seems to suggest you aren't purging the grinder properly between grind setting changes. It does need to be running when you make the adjustment, maybe just removing the hopper will automatically close a gate (I can't imagine there isn't one there) check the manual and see what it says about removing the hopper with coffee in it.

Other than that there's not much advice to give. You need to make sure you (or the machine) is tamping an evenly distributed bed of coffee and you'e not getting channeling. I personally wouldn't try to persuade you not to return the machine if you can get a full refund, they are wildly expensive for what they are. If you want a BTC then get one but there are probably far better out there than the one you mention for the price.


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## Sim7 (Aug 16, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> You need to grind finer.
> 
> A lower ratio won't help you avoid sourness. A 1:2 is probably going to be difficult to extract well. If you like the strength of the 65ml shots you were pulling before (however much they weigh) then aim for that. If the shot is sour and running for 25 seconds you need to grind finer....don't limit yourself to 25 or 30 second extractions, let it take as long as it needs to get past sourness. If you're getting a 90g yield I'm surprised it's still sour, unless it's really gushing through.
> 
> ...


 I was grinding at 20 when I got the 65ml out. Grinding finer seems to give me a longer yield. The tamp seems to be fine each time.

Yes, I can get a full refund. Spoke to John Lewis who said they'd take it back. Just wanted to try again in the hope it'd produce a decent cup of coffee which others seem to get, judging by the reviews. It's probably better I get a BTC machine which can do that without any input from me. Are you able to suggest any BTC machines? I was looking at De'Longhi as I've used one in the past but have no experience with any other brand

Although, I will give your suggestions a go and see what happens. I have one last bag of coffee to waste after all!

Thank you for all the replies. I will give those suggestions a try but I'm not hopeful.


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## japester79 (Feb 25, 2018)

If it's the same as the grinder that's integrated into the barista express then I had to change the burr gap under the hopper. 
see page 16&#8230;

https://www.sageappliances.com/content/dam/sage/uk/en/assets/miscellaneous/instruction-manual/espresso/BES990-instruction-manual.pdf

once I'd adjusted the internal grind setting finer it was loads better.

definitely sounds way too coarse.

I had a delonghi b2c prior to the sage and it was ok. Much better results from the sage though but there's definitely a learning curve.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Sim7 said:


> I was grinding at 20 when I got the 65ml out. Grinding finer seems to give me a longer yield. The tamp seems to be fine each time.
> 
> Yes, I can get a full refund. Spoke to John Lewis who said they'd take it back. Just wanted to try again in the hope it'd produce a decent cup of coffee which others seem to get, judging by the reviews. It's probably better I get a BTC machine which can do that without any input from me. Are you able to suggest any BTC machines? I was looking at De'Longhi as I've used one in the past but have no experience with any other brand
> 
> ...


 Then you can't be adjusting finer. A finer grind will slow the shot down....do you mean it dispenses a set amount automatically? You can probably override any automatic shot timing or volumetric functions it has and just go until you get the yield you want however long that takes.

I'm not familiar with any BTC machines but DaveC has reviewed the Melitta varianza csp. From what I remember the important things are separate milk and water paths and a fully accessible and easy to clean brew path. If the machine you're looking won't allow you to remove the brew chamber and clean it then don't get it, you'll get mould very quickly. See if you can try shots of espresso from any you're looking it before buying one. I say the De'Longhi probably isn't the best for the money because you're paying for the brand, and the quality tends not to be great (think appliance that will break in a few years) and they tend not to be designed with servicing in mind. Maybe their BTC range are built differently to their other stuff.


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## Sim7 (Aug 16, 2021)

Went to try out the suggestions this morning but the grinder wouldn't work! Removed the burrs and cleared it all out, no blockages and makes the right noises but still won't work. No coffee at all in the portafilter. Will be arranging a collection for it's return but in the meantime I really reaaallly need a coffee..ugh!!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

You have been running the grinder while adjusting finer right? As in the burrs were spinning while you were altering the setting...

Could also be so fine you've locked the burrs but I think it protects against that by its stepped design.

Probably best to just send it back since you clearly aren't happy with it anyway.


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## japester79 (Feb 25, 2018)

Perhaps it's just foo'd 🙄

Might explain all the issues.


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## Sim7 (Aug 16, 2021)

Thank you to everyone for their helpful advice/suggestions.

Yesterday, I lowered the inner burr to grind size of 3 and thought the grinder had and packed in and stopped working but after reading Rob1's post, I went back to the machine and I had indeed locked the burrs by grinding too fine. Adjusted the grinder setting again went from under extracted to over extracted and then got to a yield of 44g. Got the first decent cup out of it today so that's something. Can't decide whether it's slightly sour or bitter but it's certainly not bad. Pour was slightly slow when I got 44g out so I'll have a play until I get to 40g and hopefully that will give me the amazing cup.

Happy to hold off sending it back just yet as I now think I'm getting somewhere.


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## Sim7 (Aug 16, 2021)

japester79 said:


> Perhaps it's just foo'd 🙄
> 
> Might explain all the issues.


 It certainly was as the same evening it completely cut out and wouldn't switch on again.

John Lewis helpfully collected it and I'm now looking for another machine. I think I've settled on the Melitta Barista TS. I've read DavecUK's review on a Melitta but that seems to have been discontinued. The milk on the Barista TS dispenses from the coffee dispenser, does anyone know if this causes any problems with mould?


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