# REVIEW - Coffee Sensor - E61 digital group thermometer



## MrShades

I've recently received one of the Coffee Sensor digital E61 group head thermometers, and wanted to pass on my thoughts and experience to everyone - hopefully to assist with any buying decisions...

You can see the full details of this digital E61 group thermometer, and buy them, from here: https://coffee-sensor.com/

The device arrives in a nicely constructed, branded and protective cardboard box. Inside is a bubble-wrap bag with the following contents:

- Digital group thermometer itself

- Small spanner for tightening the device in the group head

- Small allen-key for removing the existing allen-bolt from the group head

- Three copper washers










On initial impressions, the thermometer looks to be well made out of plastic and stainless steel and well designed (without numerous o-rings or nuts / bolts) - and has simple push button controls on the top, for on/off, temp hold and C/F switching. You simply turn it on by hitting the middle "on/off" button and it'll turn off either after a few minutes or when you press "on/off" again. Testing it quickly when just out of the box, the unit shows ambient temperatre and the buttons all seem to work fine, with the LCD display looking good.

Now, for some background and history :

These sort of E61 thermometer devices have been around for a while...

The first person to make them commercially was "Eric" - and you can still purchase "Eric's E61 group thermometer" from the US. The "Eric's" device seem to be (in my opinion) a strangely complex design - using what seems to be a fairly standard thermometer combined with a complex adaptor, various nuts and o-rings that allow it to be sealed water-tight within the group. I'm assuming that largely because of the complex design and various parts, it's expensive - certainly when shipped into the UK from the US (which is the only available source). If you're lucky, you may get one into your hands for around £100 - though probably more if you're hit by customs for duty, VAT etc. Crazy expensive for what it is!

Then, a couple of years ago a company in South Korea started to produce a similar - but less costly device - the Vidastech E61 group thermometer. Design and construction of this seems much better, it's much simpler (read, better designed IMHO), and it's also available (either from South Korea, or via Amazon) at a slightly lower price that an "Erics" - but you'd still be looking at probably £70-80 to get one in the UK. Still expensive for what it is in my view.

Now, it's not 100% clear to me whether this "Coffee Sensor" E61 thermometer is simply a resold Vidastech device, or whether it's a device that has been manufactured in a VERY similar way by 'TTP Coffee Sensor SRL' - but it certainly looks VERY similar, and it's available to buy in Europe (from them in Romania, via the website) - and at a more reasonable price point (€50 a piece if you buy two and get free shipping - though watch for [an early] Black Friday deal from 16th Nov to 18th Nov). The manufacturer states that "3D designs are drawn in Romania and the final product is manufactured in Romanian / Asian industrial and logistical parks" - so it may or may not be Romanian / Korean / Chinese / who knows!

*** Black Friday update: The price has dropped from 16th Nov to 18th Nov to €35 - though the €20 shipping and minimum of €100 for free shipping still applies. Makes a single unit €55 shipped, or €35 each if you can find two friends !!!! ***

As you can see from the website or my photos, the device is black plastic with a stainless steel sensor shaft. It looks neat and tidy, and generally seems to be well made and well constructed. Opening the device up using a small screwdriver allows you to replace the button-cell battery as and when required.

The important part of the device is what's screwed into the E61 group head - the stainless steel sensor shaft. Fitting this is pretty easy, it took me about 2 minutes and all tools required are provided.

With the E61 group cold, simply take the provided allen-key and remove the bolt in the front of the group head. This is present purely for maufacturing reasons, though allows the enterprising or resourceful individual a simple way to access the brew-water and measure the temperature of it! Anyway, remove the hex-bolt and save it for possible reinstallation at a later date - as typically these thermometers are fitted and left in place.



















Some advocate the use of PTFE tape on the threaded shaft of the digital thermometer, but I didn't find it necessary - so didn't use any in my installation... I simply used one of the copper washers, along with the existing teflon washer that's installed with the hex-bolt and gently screwed the thermometer into place by hand. You have to be careful doing this, as you're screwing stainless steel (quite hard!) into brass (relatively softer) and I guess it would be possible to damage the thread in the group if you weren't careful - and thereafter getting a watertight seal could be a real problem!!!! However, I was pretty careful and with the aid of the supplied spanner was able to finally tighten it a few turns and sufficiently for a water-tight seal on the first try.










Once installed, the thermometer display is almost certainly not 'straight' - but by holding the shaft with the spanner and gently twisting the plastic thermometer head it can be realigned so that it looks straight and can be easily used and read.



















Testing the fitment, with a blank basket and running a backflush or two quickly shows whether any water is leaking out under pressure. If any does then simply tightening the bolt / shaft further will probably solve it - though be aware that on some machines more than one copper sealing washer may be required. It's worth running this test initially, with the machine just powered up and relatively cool, but also again once the machine is up to temp. Stand well back and be careful when running this test, as any leaks could involve 9bar (about 120PSI) water at 90+C being fired at you... though having said that, any leaks will probably just show as a slow build up of a drip!

Using the thermometer is simple - hit the middle 'on/off' button and the E61 group temperature will be shown (probably just over 90c if the thermosyphon has it up to temperature). If you want to change between C and F display, then just hit the button on the right. Then pour a shot or run some water through and you'll quickly see the temperature change to reflect the (typically hotter) temperature of the brew water. This will differ from the water that exits the shower screen by a degree or so - but it certainly gives you a very good impression of the relative temperature of the water that's hitting your coffee (and by that I mean that whilst it might not show the EXACT temp of the water hitting your puck, it will show you the temperature of the water about an inch or so before it does so.... so you can easily see any temp changes (up or down) and record any 'ideal' temperatures when you have had an ideal extraction of any given bean. For machines with PID brew temp control it should be easy to tweak the brew water temperature up or down, and the thermometer will show this increase or decrease accordingly (not necessarily that a PID increase of 1C will show as a thermometer increase of exactly 1C, but it'll show a rise of approximately that amount).










You can leave the thermometer on if you wish (or forget to turn it off) safe in the knowledge that after a minute or so it'll turn off automatically, saving the battery.

So - in summary:

In general, and certainly if you collaborate with a friend and buy two, this E61 thermometer seems to be well made, effective and the least costly (by quite a margin) of any similar device available today. Supply from within Europe means that there's no risk of duty / customs charges being applied also.

If you only want one, and can't find a 'friend' then the shipping costs of €20 to the UK seem high - and make the unit a €70 purchase, which is obviously quite a jump - but still probably cheaper than you can find one anywhere else.

The device seems to show pretty accurate temperature readings, it responds quickly (within around half a second I would estimate) and is a helpful addition for any owner of an E61 based espresso machine.

I'll close by saying that, although this is the cheapest E61 thermometer device available - it still seems to be quite expensive for what it is. Is it worth it, for the insight it gives? Well, some of us have a PID showing what the temp SHOULD be, some of us have an HX where the temp could be anything.... and for me, always wanting to make sure that the numerous variables of making good espresso are as reduced as possible, it certainly proves very helpful. I'd thought of buying an "Erics" but never could find a way to convince or justify to myself that £100 was a good investment.... the price point of this device makes that buying decision significantly easier!


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## Daren

Great review @MrShades

Anyone fancy pairing up with me whilst they are on the black Friday deal?


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## Gatty

Daren said:


> Great review @MrShades
> 
> Anyone fancy pairing up with me whilst they are on the black Friday deal?


 @Daren I'm keen - am far up North though, would you be happy to post up to me?

Happy to pay for P&P from you to me. Looks like 3 needed to buy to get free P&P from CoffeeSensor, or a discounted €10 when buying 2 on the BF deal?


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## Daren

@Glenn - this is turning into a micro group buy by the look of it, I hope you have no objection?

@MrShades - sorry for the incursion onto your thread - I'll ask the mods to clear it up once we've sorted it.

@Gatty, - I'm more then happy to post it up to you.

Lets give it till later today to see if we have a third person before I order (I'll PM you first)

Amy more takers??! You'll need to be quick!!!


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## Paul K

Guys,

This is available in the UK from here

https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/Mobile/en/Coffee-Sensor-E61-HX-and-Dual-Boiler-Digital-Grouphead-Thermometer/m-m-4258.aspx

A wee bit more expensive but by the time you add P&P works out roughly the same.

I got mine from here a month or so ago, I'm sure if you asked for David and tell him your looking to do a group buy he would offer you some discount, or if you want me to do it for you I am more than happy as I have been using them for a good 3-4yrs and have struck up an excellent relationship with them.

Or if you want to go ahead and order direct from Coffee Sensor no worries, just thought I would offer.


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## Dylan

Great review, these are very simple things and I think it's something everyone who has a HX will find useful. I managed to justify the £100+ on an Eric's to myself and although I definitely feels like a rip off the feedback is easily worth the investment.

It may be worth adding to the review that after fitting you should run the pump on a blanking basket whilst the machine is cold. This way you put it through the max pressure it will experience and if a jet of water does somehow sneak out it will be cold.


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## MrShades

Dylan said:


> Great review, these are very simple things and I think it's something everyone who has a HX will find useful. I managed to justify the £100+ on an Eric's to myself and although I definitely feels like a rip off the feedback is easily worth the investment.
> 
> It may be worth adding to the review that after fitting you should run the pump on a blanking basket whilst the machine is cold. This way you put it through the max pressure it will experience and if a jet of water does somehow sneak out it will be cold.


Thanks @Dylan - the review already mentions running a blank shot with it cold, and then again hot - as it's definitely a good idea. As I also say, the chances of actually getting a jet/spray from a leak is very small, and it'll probably be a drip or growing drip that shows - Still, better to be safe than sorry - and 20c water is much better than 95c water!


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## Dylan

MrShades said:


> Thanks @Dylan - the review already mentions running a blank shot with it cold, and then again hot - as it's definitely a good idea. As I also say, the chances of actually getting a jet/spray from a leak is very small, and it'll probably be a drip or growing drip that shows - Still, better to be safe than sorry - and 20c water is much better than 95c water!


Ah, yes, I missed that!


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## DavecUK

Also run a blank shot with the group fully warmed up use a tea towel just in case.


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## Glenn

Happy for Group Buy managed by Daren


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## L&R

Waiting for mine to add some additional experiments to this wonderful review.


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## WEJ

Just ordered three, so will have a couple spare if someone needs one (or two...) Not sure what the exchange rate worked out at, hasn't shown up in my online account yet, but happy to send on at cost + delivery.


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## Inglorious Alf

Got mine and installed it without issue today. Tightened it up with reasonable pressure and no leaks when running the pump.

Now I just need to work out what I should be doing with the temperature readings!


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## MrShades

Just to add to my original review - I've had a chance to remove the sensor and do a proper temperature test (using a crushed ice / water mix). Whilst the digital thermometer that I have read -0.1c (so slightly low) within my test ice/water bath, the Coffee Sensor was reading +0.8c (so slightly high). This correlates with the fact that my PID is set to 94.0C and I'm seeing temperatures at the sensor, during brew of around 95.5-95.8c, which then drops to around 94.2 over time. I'd expect the real temp to be slightly lower, so an over-read of about 0.5c to 0.8c seems about right.

I'll try a "boiling water" test (for circa 100c) at some point and see if it's off a similar amount at the 100c end of the readings as well, but from what I'm seeing I'd expect so. It''s not quite so easy to get water at exactly 100c (it's easier getting ice/water at 0c) but it'll be close.

Anyone else seen anything similar, or different, during tests?


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## Inglorious Alf

MrShades said:


> Just to add to my original review - I've had a chance to remove the sensor and do a proper temperature test (using a crushed ice / water mix). Whilst the digital thermometer that I have read -0.1c (so slightly low) within my test ice/water bath, the Coffee Sensor was reading +0.8c (so slightly high). This correlates with the fact that my PID is set to 94.0C and I'm seeing temperatures at the sensor, during brew of around 95.5-95.8c, which then drops to around 94.2 over time. I'd expect the real temp to be slightly lower, so an over-read of about 0.5c to 0.8c seems about right.
> 
> I'll try a "boiling water" test (for circa 100c) at some point and see if it's off a similar amount at the 100c end of the readings as well, but from what I'm seeing I'd expect so. It''s not quite so easy to get water at exactly 100c (it's easier getting ice/water at 0c) but it'll be close.
> 
> Anyone else seen anything similar, or different, during tests?


I tested mine under boiling water and it was exactly 100C so no issues there.

I haven't really worked out what to aim for with the flush and what it should read before I start the shot but I will start experimenting! I have my PID set to 95.1 and my earlier shot ran at around 93 so I definitely think I ran too much through for my cooling flush. Thanks for the helpful review.


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## Rob1

MrShades said:


> Just to add to my original review - I've had a chance to remove the sensor and do a proper temperature test (using a crushed ice / water mix). Whilst the digital thermometer that I have read -0.1c (so slightly low) within my test ice/water bath, the Coffee Sensor was reading +0.8c (so slightly high). This correlates with the fact that my PID is set to 94.0C and I'm seeing temperatures at the sensor, during brew of around 95.5-95.8c, which then drops to around 94.2 over time. I'd expect the real temp to be slightly lower, so an over-read of about 0.5c to 0.8c seems about right.
> 
> I'll try a "boiling water" test (for circa 100c) at some point and see if it's off a similar amount at the 100c end of the readings as well, but from what I'm seeing I'd expect so. It''s not quite so easy to get water at exactly 100c (it's easier getting ice/water at 0c) but it'll be close.
> 
> Anyone else seen anything similar, or different, during tests?


Accuracy at lower temperatures won't be the same as higher. Presumably it's calibrated to read accurately around 80-100c.


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## Dylan

If I remember correctly, according to Eric's guide for his product the temp on the sensor will be roughly 1deg higher than at the puck.


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## MrShades

I've just tested mine again in boiling water...

Wanting to do it vaguely properly, I got water on a rolling boil. At my altitude (about 150m above sea-level) the true boiling point of water should be around 99.5c.

My digital thermometer - with a k-type thermocouple sensor within a thermowell - that I positioned carefully in the centre of the water, read 98.4c - so about 1c low.

The Coffee Sensor thermometer at the same time and almost the same place, was reading 100.5c - so about 1c high. Again, reflects my previous measurements at 0c.

Anyway - it gives a good indication, even if it's not strictly accurate!


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## WEJ

My order for three arrived yesterday, so I've a couple spare if anyone needs one. £31.50 + £4.50 signed for RM. Let me know if interested.

Fitting was easy, works well.


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## L&R

And here is my contribution to this review. First of all thanks to the admin for the opportunity to have it.

Although these are made in Romania, I would say they are just finished and packed there. The quality of the product is acceptable and the set has everything you need to mount it on your E61 machine.

What is in the package once again:


Coffee Sensor

Allen key for the original nut of the group.

A small custom wrench for tightening the sensor

3 cooper washers










You have to use only one washer on the most of the machines, producer advises to leave the teflon-made washer on place as well.

Before mounting the device I have made some experiments regarding its accuracy and response in temperature changes.


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## L&R

As I wrote before mounting I played a little bit with it, attached are some pictures of these experiments.









I would say the accuracy is in the range of +/- 1C and the tool has really fast response to temperature changes.

On theory all seamed nice







. It was time to finally mount it in place.


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## L&R

I mounted the sensor on WEGA Classic HX E61 group machine. About mounting there weren't any problems except I needed to tighten the sensor 3 times because of the small leakage from the thread.

At this point I felt a little bit disappointed of the result. The device is nowhere near good looking on my classical machine with wooden elements. They should have produced the sensor with chrome plated plastic IMHO. It will be more compatible this way.









Yet the functionality of the sensor is really good and it helped me to know my machine better. I realized that I have to flush longer and although massive the E61 has some temp variations.

Here is the short video of flushing and pulling the shot with sensor attached.






This sensor made me thinking of double boiler machines









BR


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## ashcroc

L&R said:


> I mounted the sensor on WEGA Classic HX E61 group machine. About mounting there weren't any problems except I needed to tighten the sensor 3 times because of the small leakage from the thread.
> 
> At this point I felt a little bit disappointed of the result. The device is nowhere near good looking on my classical machine with wooden elements. They should have produced the sensor with chrome plated plastic IMHO. It will be more compatible this way.
> 
> View attachment 37722
> View attachment 37723
> 
> 
> Yet the functionality of the sensor is really good and it helped me to know my machine better. I realized that I have to flush longer and although massive the E61 has some temp variations.
> 
> Here is the short video of flushing and pulling the shot with sensor attached.


Nice review. Has it improved the taste in the cup now you know the temp of the group?


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## L&R

Yep now I have better taste in the cup.


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## CoffeeSensor

To MrShades, L&R and all others, thank you so much for the great words and review.

Glad to have such a large and experienced crowd testing and giveing such words regarding our sensor.

You know that a lot of clients, before buying, don't really trust the reviews on manufacturer website. But this...this is something else









Regarding the manufacturing process, the sensor is made in Romania.

We do not work with Vidastech. Or Eric







Just me and my wife and that's it. It's as simple as any other family owned businesses in the world.

We take great pride into testing each and every sensor, because this is our product and our own design.

I guess that's why in our house we have the original design on a paper made by my father in law and about two V2 (second version) adapters with a new and a little bit improved design.

Regarding stainless steel style thermometer (L&R), we have such an order from Germany also.

Please write to me if there are any other wanting clients for something like this, so we could make a bigger purchase and modify a little bit the adapter, so we could send something like this also.

Anything for our client.

Cheers, Tudor and Tabita.


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## jaho

Definitely a stainless steel (chrome) thermometer will be very much desired. Preserve nice design E61...

A lot of successes Tudor and Tabita


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## yuvalmesika

CoffeeSensor said:


> To MrShades, L&R and all others, thank you so much for the great words and review.
> 
> Regarding stainless steel style thermometer (L&R), we have such an order from Germany also.
> 
> Please write to me if there are any other wanting clients for something like this, so we could make a bigger purchase and modify a little bit the adapter, so we could send something like this also.
> 
> Anything for our client.
> 
> Cheers, Tudor and Tabita.


Hi CoffeeSensor, do you have the thermometer in stainless steel?

If so I would like to order one


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## CoffeeSensor

Happy new year guys!

If you kindly will wait a few weeks more, maybe we could offer the stainless steel adapter with a new adjustable thermocouple fitting from Coffee Sensor?

We are working a more professional system for our sensor.

Cheers and we will keep you updated about the manufacturing process.


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## L&R

Looking forward for it


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## Acanthodian

I would be interested if you still have one available. JUST PURCHASED ONE -SORTED. THANKS

QUOTE=WEJ;641096]My order for three arrived yesterday, so I've a couple spare if anyone needs one. £31.50 + £4.50 signed for RM. Let me know if interested.

Fitting was easy, works well.


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## CoffeeSensor

Hi guys.

On every forum where we have posted, i presented what we are up to this year.

We will update the design of the universal adapter (will create a 2019 model) and are in tests with what we call the Pro Version of the Coffee Sensor...

Hope you will enjoy the new sensor just as you did the first model.

Cheers !


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## crlbt

Hi. When new sensor be available? Thanks.


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## CoffeeSensor

Hi guys.

We just launched the pro version and another part that's pretty looked for, the Gaggia Shower Screen Holder made entirely from stainless steel 316 Grade.

Thanks.


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## ashcroc

CoffeeSensor said:


> Hi guys.
> 
> We just launched the pro version and another part that's pretty looked for, the Gaggia Shower Screen Holder made entirely from stainless steel 316 Grade.
> 
> Thanks.


Looks nice, am mighty tempted even though I already have a brass one.

Are the 4 jets the same diameter all the way through or are they tapered like the OEM one?


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## L&R

CoffeeSensor said:


> Hi guys.
> 
> We just launched the pro version and another part that's pretty looked for, the Gaggia Shower Screen Holder made entirely from stainless steel 316 Grade.
> 
> Thanks.


Specs, price?


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## ashcroc

L&R said:


> Specs, price?


€35 with free postage.


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## Stevebee

Just a word of warning if you get the new Taylor sensor. Mine arrived and I assembled as per instructions on the site, the key being assemble FINGER TIGHT the nut that contains the plastic ferrule.

Fired up the Vesuvius and when up to temp, loaded the portafilter and started the shot.

14 secs of 2 bar preinfusion - fine, was watching the thermometer, then as soon as my profile went to 10 bar it blew the thermometer out along with 93 degree water straight into my face! Lucky I have a beard which I think helped.

Re-assembled after the shock but this time tightened with the spanner NOT finger tight.

Worked fine but still wary. This nut with the plastic ferrule appears to be the only thing keeping the thermometer in place as far as I can see, whereas the original was a one piece screw in thermometer which couldn't blow out.


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## CoffeeSensor

Hi Steve.

First, we are very sorry to hear that something like that happened. We are also thankful to God that you are OK.

I would have preferred you talked to me first because there are some safety rules that need to be followed 100%, before the first use. I did not read a very important step, you did not mention anything about it.

Please bare in mind that i am not blaming anyone here, but we are talking about a machine that produces high pressure and hot water, so our client needs to be 100% sure that he understands the rules and knows what he is doing.

Or can ask for help to a service center, if it's best and suits him.

Very important, is the no 8 step: *Make the leak test, using a blind basket in the PF. For your safety, don't stay in front of the coffee machine when making this test*.

Regarding the finger tight process, is for preserving the ferrule's factory form and proprieties, since it can and does ensure 100% anti water leak with only the fingers and NOT any screw driver or fix key usage.

Of course, there is a problem with this thing. For me, finger tight can be one thing, for the clients totally another one.

I have been testing the product for months and nothing like this happened. I tested about two or three Pro Version on my own machine and at work.

And already sold it and no problems also.

I remember another product of this kind from US, this situation happened to one of Eric customers. The problem was i think the installation and not the product or design.

The ferrule I use is Made in US and tested for much bigger working pressure than 9 or 10 bar, but of course with certain installation procedures.

This is also a single ferrule mechanism, not double as somebody else uses.

I even used some samples ferules from China that were way cheaper and did not seem so good as quality and still nothing bad happened during a month or two of tests.

I can assure, you CAN use the sensor easily and just tighten the first screw a little bit better.

BTW, the universal adapter and sensor is very different to this one, with different design and different reading process.

The mechanisms behind the two products, even the production, are very different.

For safety, i will recommend everyone to use a fix key to close the screw with the ferrule and not the fingers and that's it.

I think it's better for everyone.

For your situation, please accept our deepest apologies.

You can send back the sensor and we will reimburse the money.

For me and my family, it's not about money, it's about respect, safety and good coffee.

For everyone else, i will post the installation rules.

*Installation steps:*


Remove the M6 hex head screw located on the grouphead with the provided Allen key;

Remove original copper or Teflon washer that was already inside the machine;

Separate the thermometer + fitting from the M6 adapter that goes inside the machine's grouphead;

Screw the adapter into the grouphead using a new copper washer, on the thread that faces the grouphead. Insert using provided 12 mm fix key;

Insert the thermometer with the stainless steel pin with one ferrule on it inside the M12 nut and all inside the adapter. Before the insertion process, if you hold the thermometer with your left hand, the order that you should see is from left to right: thermometer's body (in your left hand), 12 mm nut, one Teflon ferrule and of course the body of the pin. The thinnest part of the ferrule should face towards the coffee machine group head. Please check product pictures 5 and 6 for your reference;

When you are already inside the adapter with the pin, stop the probe at the desired insertion depth;

Holding the thermometer's body at the desired pin insertion depth and in the correct horizontal orientation, finger tighten the nut located on front of the fitting, applying just very little pressure. DON'T USE THE FIX KEY !

Make the leak test, using a blind basket in the PF. For your safety, don't stay in front of the coffee machine when making this test.

If there are no water leaks present, enjoy !

If there are any water leaks, see exactly from where. You could tighten more the 12 mm nut that has the ferrule inside with your finger or the adapter inside the grouphead with the fix 12 mm key, but only a little bit and retest the sensor using the blind basket again.


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## Stevebee

As I had the original one with no problems, I didn't anticipate an issue with the new one so maybe I didn't read the instructions as far as No.8 ! I think the fact that "don't use a spanner" and "finger tight " were the only phrases in capitals in all the instructions. meant I thought this part was important and might damage the ferrule if overtightened. I think number 8 should be the one in capitals 

With hindsight. It was maybe not the brightest thing to look directly at it on the first run through. Got lucky with where most of the water hit (beard) so just a bit sore underneath all the hair.

Not returning it as now it is tightened enough it works perfectly. The temperatures it shows are the same as the previous version so it must be inserted at the correct depth again. Obviously can't compare side by side as I only have the one E61 group but it does seem to be a bit more responsive than the original. Use the original all the time at the weekends to monitor the group idle temp and adjust the temp setting accordingly.


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## CoffeeSensor

And we just modified the installation instructions, for best safety for our clients. To be honest, yes, the CAPS we used could make the customer's attention way over there and not at the No 8 rule







for example.

*So guys, please always use a fix key to tighten the adapter inside the grouphead and also the hex screw with the ferrule inside.*

*
*

We provide two ferrules, when you feel that the first one does not ensure good tighten, just change it.

Again Steve, sorry about the situation and read my e-mail, you have there some offers, so everything is OK between us









Thank you.


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## Stevebee

Just an update of my usage to date.

Having tightened the sensor it now won't budge, even if I try to pull it out so much more confident now.

Really should rtfm, well as far as no.8 anyway.

In use, the idle temps on this new one are the same as the old. Difference is when the shot starts. It seems to respond quicker once the water flows. For me it shows 1c above the temp I set the PID. This is consistent every time.

I believe this difference in perceived response time is due to the fact that this new sensor has less contact with the group head than the previous one due to how it attaches via the adapter. This means it is responding more to water temp which is good news.

I personally like the look of this one but I know some do think anything attached to an E61 spoil the look. I think of it as a tool giving great information ad actually like the look. Once attached correctly the sensor will not budge (I've tried) and for my use it is invaluable as I use the Vesuvius at a Farmers Market at weekends and ambient temps could play havoc with shot temps without it.

If you feel the need to know more about the temps of your E61, particularly if it's a HX machine, I think this is an excellent choice. Customer service is also excellent. With Reiss, Paolo and now Tudor for my Coffee Sensor I have been spoilt for excellent service, which is important to me.


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## CoffeeSensor

ashcroc said:


> Looks nice, am mighty tempted even though I already have a brass one.
> 
> Are the 4 jets the same diameter all the way through or are they tapered like the OEM one?


Personally, after installing this Coffee Sensor Screen Holder on my Classic, the product really worth the higher manufacturing price, since it looks just like the OEM Stainless Steel case and is the most durable material out there.

The four holes are the same diameter all the way through.

Thanks and when you have time, respond to my Pm please


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## CoffeeSensor

I hope you'll enjoy our first tutorial video :






If you have any comments about the image / text, just send them using PM and i'll solve ASAP.

Also I hope today to post the installation tutorial for the Universal Adapter 2019 Model.

Thanks !


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## MrShades

With the standard dispersion plate being aluminium and other after market ones being brass, as well as the actual group head being brass : Is a stainless steel dispersion plate going to be better or worse than the original aluminium one when it comes to galvanic corrosion?

The brass ones won't have an issue, the aluminium ones seem to suffer a bit, and I'd expect stainless to suffer also, but to what extent?

More to the point, the whole idea of swapping to a brass dispersion plate is to increase the specific heat capacity of the group, which aids temp stability.

Aluminium is worse than brass in this respect - which is why brass is a good upgrade. However, stainless steel is significantly worse than both brass and aluminium (316 stainless has half the specific heat capacity of brass).

Struggling to see any real benefit to a stainless steel plate, with brass seeming to be the best option - unless I'm missing something????


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## ashcroc

MrShades said:


> With the standard dispersion plate being aluminium and other after market ones being brass, as well as the actual group head being brass : Is a stainless steel dispersion plate going to be better or worse than the original aluminium one when it comes to galvanic corrosion?
> 
> The brass ones won't have an issue, the aluminium ones seem to suffer a bit, and I'd expect stainless to suffer also, but to what extent?
> 
> More to the point, the whole idea of swapping to a brass dispersion plate is to increase the specific heat capacity of the group, which aids temp stability.
> 
> Aluminium is worse than brass in this respect - which is why brass is a good upgrade. However, stainless steel is significantly worse than both brass and aluminium (316 stainless has half the specific heat capacity of brass).
> 
> Struggling to see any real benefit to a stainless steel plate, with brass seeming to be the best option - unless I'm missing something????


Good point. I hadn't even considered galvanic corrosion. Haven't looked into metalurgy in a while but from memory, the steel would act as the anode just like the OE alu one does.


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## MrShades

Brass just seems like the best all round option


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## CoffeeSensor

Hi guys.

When speaking of a SS316 part, if it's a shower screen or anything else, trust me when i say, and that's the reason why we made it from this material, we cannot speak about corrosion. That's the point when we decided to offer lifetime warranty for this product.

Also, we like the ideea of doint things different, not like everybody on the market.

If anybody makes the shower screen from brass, some people cannot even answer why. Just because the other one is making it like this i guess 

We know why we used SS316. About corrosion, we just mentioned that it's out of discussion.

About thermal stability and ,, increase the specific heat capacity of the group", the internals of the Gaggia Classic are used here in Romania by a very close friend, to build DIY awesome coffee machines, just because they are already great in generatig heat, and a lot of. That's something very specific to this type of coffee machine.

The SS316 shower screen plate is an upgrade considering the stainless steel looks and not brass on a entirely made SS machine, gives great thermal stability on the down side of the extraction and does not overheat.

About the heat up time, me and another friend from this forum will conduct some tests using thermal guns.

The results will be posted here of course or on his special thread.

IMO, things are great with this products and DO NOT EFFECT AT ALL stability and does not overheat when leaving the machine on, like Alu or Brass.

Thanks.


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## MrShades

Thanks for the reply, though my point is that the group of the Classic is made of solid brass.... so a dispersion plate (firmly afixed to it) made of any other metal will cause galvanic corrosion in either the brass group or the dispersion plate.

If the dispersion plate is made of brass, this corrosion will not happen. If it's made of aluminium or stainless steel then it will, to some degree.

HOWEVER - when the dispersion plate is made of aluminium, the galvanic corrosion will affect the dispersion plate - erroding / pitting it. We can change dispersion plates if this happens.

When the dispersion plate is made of stainless steel, the opposite happens and we'll see mild galvanic corrosion of the brass group - again erroding / pitting it. Changing the brass group is slightly more complex and expensive than changing a dispersion screen. Whether this is a big deal or not I have no idea, and it'll probably need a long term test over a few years before anything became obvious.

Just to be extra geeky, I've also now done some calculations concerning the specific heat capacity and specific gravity of aluminium, brass and stainless 316



Aluminium - would take 572kcal to increase 1m3 by 1c


Brass - would take 770kcal to increase 1m3 by 1c


316 Stainless - would take 936kcal to increase 1m3 by 1c


So - in terms of which material would "hold" more heat energy, stainless 316 wins - but both brass and stainless are good improvements over aluminium. Similarly (everything else being equal), a machine fitted with a stainless dispersion plate (or a brass one) would take longer to "heat up" than one fitted with an aluminium one. Probably longer by a few seconds, or a few minutes - but longer (it has to, if the extra heat capacity of the different dispersion plate is to be beneficial). It's impossible to have a material that increases thermal stability but allows the machine to heat up faster.

I'm curious what you mean by " does not overheat when leaving the machine on, like Alu or Brass" - because I've never seen the dispersion plate have any effect on overheating at all.... in fact it's immaterial as long as the thermostats or PID are working correctly. Can you explain please @CoffeeSensor?


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## ashcroc

I've had a ss316 shower screen screw in my brass dispersion plate for over 2 years & it's still as good as new. The brass plate has lost it's shine but that's nothing uncommon with the material & there's no obvious pitting either.
I get where you're comming from & while I share your concerns, I'm not convinced yet it'll be too much of a problem.


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## MrShades

What I'm saying is that brass and stainless (in theory) will cause the brass to corrode.... whereas brass and brass will do nothing, and brass and aluminium will cause the aluminium to corrode. Obviously, to what degree is a different question - and the answer is probably "Who cares?"


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## Nicknak

Two bits from the web

Passivation, (i.e.: surface cleaning and sealing) lowers the metals electrical potential and improves its *corrosion* behavior. As the series suggests, *steel* and aluminum are relatively compatible, but if *brass* and *steel* contact, the *steel* will *corrode* because it is more anodic than the *brass*.

and

The further apart the metals are, in terms of relative potentials, the greater the driving force in a cell. So, for example, stainless steel in contact with copper is less likely to be a risk than when it is in contact with aluminium or galvanised (zinc coated) steel.

To complete the cell, a conductive liquid must bridge the contact metals.
The more electrically conductive the liquid is, the greater the danger of corrosion. Seawater or salt laden moist air is more of a risk than contact with rain water or towns water.


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## MrShades

^^^ that's a challenging read when using "Dark roast" ?

Anyway - something is possibly going to corrode somewhere, but probably not very much!

That'll do!


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## MrShades

Nicknak said:


> Two bits from the web
> 
> Passivation, (i.e.: surface cleaning and sealing) lowers the metals electrical potential and improves its *corrosion* behavior. As the series suggests, *steel* and aluminum are relatively compatible, ﻿but if *brass* and *steel* contact, the *steel* will *corrode* because it is more anodic than the *brass*.
> 
> and
> 
> The further apart the metals are, in terms of relative potentials, the greater the driving force in a cell. So, for example, stainless steel in contact with copper is less likely to be a risk than when it is in contact with aluminium or galvanised (zinc coated) steel.
> 
> To complete the cell, a conductive liquid must bridge the contact metals.
> The more electrically conductive the liquid is, the greater the danger of corrosion. Seawater or salt laden moist air is more of a risk than contact with rain water or towns water.


 Just to be pedantic, if you take a look back at your reference doc, I'm sure you'll see that "steel" is quite different to "316 stainless steel"..... and brass/stainless will cause the brass to corrode.


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## ashcroc

MrShades said:


> What I'm saying is that brass and stainless (in theory) will cause the brass to corrode.... whereas brass and brass will do nothing, and brass and aluminium will cause the aluminium to corrode. Obviously, to what degree is a different question - and the answer is probably "Who cares?"


Yeah fully understand that. Just haven't personally seen anything from the same dissimilar metals being in contact (admittedly a screw has a much smaller contact area than a dispersion plate). The original mild steel screw however was rusted into the OE alu block.
I dare say the group being chrome plated would have an effect too.
I've had one of these ss shower plates fitted for just over 3 weeks (including 1 week I was away so switched off) to test out. Can't say I've noticed any difference yet (either in taste or heat up time) from my brass one but have yet to drop it out for a deep clean.


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## Nicknak

MrShades said:


> Just to be pedantic, if you take a look back at your reference doc, I'm sure you'll see that "steel" is quite different to "316 stainless steel"..... and brass/stainless will cause the brass to corrode.


 Whoops,I'm off to re read it ..??.. I have a sailing boat with an inboard engine and brass through the hull fittings and have suffered a de zincing of brass .. quite alarming if your in the North Sea with water gushing in ?


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## MrShades

To be fair, I think in real world usage - brass or stainless will be equally as good.... they're both better than aluminium!


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## ashcroc

MrShades said:


> To be fair, I think in real world usage - brass or stainless will be equally as good.... they're both better than aluminium!


If only someone could make a brass or steel boiler to replace the alu one....


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## Alan Kilroy

Just a quick one.......

......fitted a Pro Thermometer there just now to my Appartamento, temp reading nicely.

Q. Does it auto switch off after a few minutes?


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## richwade80

Alan Kilroy said:


> Just a quick one.......
> ......fitted a Pro Thermometer there just now to my Appartamento, temp reading nicely.
> Q. Does it auto switch off after a few minutes?


Mine does. It goes off after 5 or 10 mins. I can't remember which.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Alan Kilroy

What??? Your thermometer???? ?????

Sorry.....couldn't resist ?


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## richwade80

Alan Kilroy said:


> What??? Your thermometer????
> Sorry.....couldn't resist


...are we talking about thermometers? Same applies.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Alan Kilroy

Such a revealing instrument........fiddling with it ?this morning and the variances in temperatures "can be" astonishing.

??...........more experimenting to take place.

Also had a slight leak, quick spanner work and all alright. After all, it's not even on a full day.


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## richwade80

Alan Kilroy said:


> Such a revealing instrument........fiddling with it this morning and the variances in temperatures "can be" astonishing.
> ...........more experimenting to take place.
> Also had a slight leak, quick spanner work and all alright. After all, it's not even on a full day.


Hopefully this link works.

Plenty of info on the forum regarding how these things work.

ECM Mechanika Boiler Temp
https://coffeeforums.co.uk/index.php?/topic/43095-ECM-Mechanika-Boiler-Temp/page__view__findpost__p__650497

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## Alan Kilroy

Cheers @richwade80, just read that stuff.

Maybe I'll start taking notes as to what temps are after what times etc. Idling etc. But I'm struggling to get to between 92 and 94 atm.

I'll get there though...........not giving up ....trial and error.


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## kennyboy993

Alan Kilroy said:


> Cheers @richwade80, just read that stuff.
> Maybe I'll start taking notes as to what temps are after what times etc. Idling etc. But I'm struggling to get to between 92 and 94 atm.
> I'll get there though...........not giving up ....trial and error.


Probe measures brew temp only when brewing (or near to), measures group head temp when idle.

I ran one for over a year on a hx e61 Alan - and became obsessed, though did learn a lot.

Rocket hx will be a flush and go - though u probably know that already.

What's your flush routine and what sort of temp readings are u getting during brew?

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## Alan Kilroy

I flush. Temp drops to low 90's say. Basket ready. Temp starts to creep up again. Lock n load then when I flip the lever it starts shooting to late 90's.

This would be after idling for over say 40 minutes.....everything well settled shall we say.

That's me just guessing really, not scientific.

No worries. I'll start to keep notes till it comes second nature.

Even when I flush from hot water tap, I can hear the reservoir filling up the tank again (for a long black). It's all see saw at the moment but I'm not overly concerned.

It'll be made this way by Rocket I assume.....for a good reason.

Actually....must turn it on now and play.

Right....on 5:23pm  Pen n paper ready.


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## Alan Kilroy

OK......Happy enough now.

60 minutes in.

START FROM COLD MACHINE;

20 mins. 85c

30 mins. 94c

35 mins. 96c., flushed 5 sec. 100c down to 97c

40 mins. 96.2c., flushed 5 sec. 100c down to 97c., flushed 10 sec 98c down to 96c

45 mins. 94.8c., flushed 5 secs. 99c down to 94.8c

50 mins. brewed 18grs. 94.3c -100-98-97-96-93 over 25 secs. That'll be OK???

Rinsed shower filter to 93.7c

55 mins. Brewed again @92c -99-97-96-94c. Same rise and drop.

Acceptable readings? I'm happy enough. Should I be?


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## kennyboy993

Yep - looks spot on and classic prosumer HX declining temp profile.

Of course you can drop the average brew temp if you think it's a touch high by flushing for another couple of seconds, again more experimenting.

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## qwerty69

So going to start by saying I hope you're all well ?

its been years since I was on last and although I've still been making coffee work / family had taken over.

Anyhow, I've added a Coffee Sensor - Thermometer to my Izzo Vivi today and all's looking good. No leaks from the nut but a few drops from around the leaver when I tested it (cold). I'm sure it's nothing that a quick replacement gasket won't fix and I haven't seen the issue when heated up (I'll keep an eye on it).

Wanted to check if anyone had any advice as to what temp to aim for when flushing, to get a good temp for the final espresso (accepting that the temp rebound on my machine'll be different than yours)?

I've never really considered temp before and as such any advice would be appreciated.


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## richwade80

Been doing some more work on this in the lockdown which might help.

This is a Sample Group Temperature Cycle for my machine
(Temperature at Puck assumed 1c Lower than group reading)

Pre Flush = 97c or what you start at
Flush Peak = 99c (+2c)
Post Flush = 96c (-1c) end of flash boiling, the flush and go method. 
Shot Peak = 99c (+2c) 98c at Puck
Shot Min = 98c (+1c) 97 at Puck
Post Shot = 95c (-2c)

For different roasts you might target the following, and as the temp at the puck is 1c lower, it's the same temp as the pre flush group reading. Ie 97 degrees pre flush would result in 97 at the puck with this method.

Shot Target Temp
92c Dark (92c Pre Flush)
94c Medium (94c Pre Flush)
96c Light (96c Pre Flush)

This is all relative of course. 97 is as hot as my machine gets, and I normally aim to start at a lower temp or flush longer to get there.

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## qwerty69

Many thanks.


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## GazRef

Had this therm a few months. Recently noticed temperature readings were bouncing all over the place when its on. Thought it was a double/duff contact somewhere causing the off readings or the battery was on its way out. Thought the bolt had worked its way loose but it handn't. Gave it a once over and noticed the read out end had some wiggle, moved in and out on the fitting. On the click out the digital read out comes out of the fitting. Read out with long wire and the end has what looks like grey thermal paste on it. Reseating results in the same all over the place readings as before. I know the group should be somewhere between 92-102 depending. Fiddling can get what looks like a good reading but just turning it on off again sends it back to all over the place ville.

Any tips tricks to restore it correctly or is it kaput?


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## MrShades

GazRef said:


> Had this therm a few months. Recently noticed temperature readings were bouncing all over the place when its on. Thought it was a double/duff contact somewhere causing the off readings or the battery was on its way out. Thought the bolt had worked its way loose but it handn't. Gave it a once over and noticed the read out end had some wiggle, moved in and out on the fitting. On the click out the digital read out comes out of the fitting. Read out with long wire and the end has what looks like grey thermal paste on it. Reseating results in the same all over the place readings as before. I know the group should be somewhere between 92-102 depending. Fiddling can get what looks like a good reading but just turning it on off again sends it back to all over the place ville.
> 
> Any tips tricks to restore it correctly or is it kaput?


 Sounds kaput - I'd contact the retailer and get a replacement... should last longer than a few months!


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## MrShades

...and if you are looking for a CHEAP digital thermometer for E61 groups, similar to this one - then check out Shades of Coffee (www.shadesofcoffee.co.uk) and use the discount code CFUK-E61THERM to get one for only £30.


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## kico

Thanks, this discount code still works!


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## Bigbrownbear

kico said:


> Thanks, this discount code still works!


 Still working.


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## Allthingscoffee

MrShades said:


> ...and if you are looking for a CHEAP digital thermometer for E61 groups, similar to this one - then check out Shades of Coffee (www.shadesofcoffee.co.uk) and use the discount code CFUK-E61THERM to get one for only £30.


 Thank you very much. I can confirm this code still works in May 2021.


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## Gropa011

Still working October 2021


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## JP60606

Can confirm the code still works in March 22, handy little bit of kit!


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