# Help with my shortlist of machines



## sarobin (Feb 5, 2013)

Hi everyone,

I'm just about to upgrade from my Jura Z5 b2c machine after 7 years. When I worked at uni yonks ago, I used to work in a cafe on a Gaggia commercial 2 group machine, so I'm familiar but rusty! Have read lots of very helpful threads on here to lead me to my shortlist:

GRINDER:

1) Vario

2) Eureka Mignon

MACHINE:

1) Rocket Giotta (Plus or Evolutione)

2) Rocket Cellini (Plus or Evolutione)

3) Izzo Vivi PID

4) Expobar Leva Dual Boiler

5) Fracino Heavenly

Obviously there is a great price difference between the Heavenly and all the others and I just wondered if anyone had experience of that machine AND any of the others. I'm going to go to Bella Barista to look at all of them except the Heavenly as they don't stock Fracinos. I'm assuming though that there must be some very good reasons that the others are in a different price bracket?

I currently mostly make Americanos - 3 to 6 a day on average.

Looking forward to hearing people's thoughts


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

The main difference in price will be the use of vibratory/rotary pump. Having rotary enables you to plumb in to water mains and is a better quality of pump.

Other than that there are HX or Dual Boiler. Either are suitable for home use with pros/cons for each, mainly around how easily you want to adjust the brew temperature. As you aren't looking for much steaming power a HX may be a better option.

Finally it will come down to build quality and design. Izzo and Rocket have (reputably) the best build quality and personally I don't think you can beat Rocket for design. If it was me and had the money for any of the above I would go for a Rocket Evo as with the rotary pump you have the option to plumb in for the future and you will never be jealous of other machines looks! At this level of investment you want to be as future proof as possible so stretch that little extra.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Hi sarobin,

All the equipment above will do an excellent job.

I personally use a Heavenly/Vario combo, and am very happy with both.

Fracino design/build quality is probably the difference in price, but the end result will be very close between all of them.

Choice of HX or dual boiler is also debatable (both are good for different reasons).

I think it probably comes down to personal choice, but its a good list

Personally - if I was upgrading my Heavenly, I would probably get a Rocket.

I wouldn't upgrade my Vario as imho its the perfect home grinder (but the eureka is also good).


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Just a quick question, why an e61, why not a commercial 1/2 group?

If I were to change machines it would either be to a lever or a commercial 1 group tbh. I'd also sway against the vivi for an alex.


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## sarobin (Feb 5, 2013)

It just happens that the ones I like the look of are E61 type - purely co-incidence I think.

I love the look of levers, but they look a bit slow (waiting for all lever to return, etc.)


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

The Fracino machines like the Cherub (which is basically the same as a Heavenly but with a less fancy box) are getting a very good reputation - they like the style of the Italian machines but there is nothing wrong with their build quality. Again, Expobars don't look quite as good as the Italian machines but there are many satisified users on this forum.

If you are looking in this price range, don't forget the Londinium I...

Don't personally agree with RisingPower's suggestion of a commercial machine - they are big with big boilers and consume a lot of power. They take time to warm up and are designed to be left on all day to deliver constant coffee - this does not coincide with the needs of most home users.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

sarobin said:


> It just happens that the ones I like the look of are E61 type - purely co-incidence I think.
> 
> I love the look of levers, but they look a bit slow (waiting for all lever to return, etc.)


The time it takes for the lever to return (on a commercial sprung lever group) is the same time as your extraction (maybe another second or two before the coffee flows) + time for preinfusion. Which is just the same as a pump machine really.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Get a Brewtus and put the extra money towards a better grinder than on your list.

Im biased


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## sarobin (Feb 5, 2013)

Ah - I see. On the videos of the Londinium I've seen, I wasn't keen on the way you can't stop the brew early (other than removing your cup early and letting the rest dribble away into the drip tray.).


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## sarobin (Feb 5, 2013)

Gary - isn't the Brewtus the same as the Expobar Leva that is on my list?


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## sarobin (Feb 5, 2013)

I don't want a grinder that is any larger than the 2 on my shortlist, and the Mazzers all look a bit big for me.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Brewtus is a mark 1 or 2 whereAs the Leva is the same machine but either version 3 or 4.


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## Callum_T (Dec 23, 2012)

sarobin said:


> I don't want a grinder that is any larger than the 2 on my shortlist, and the Mazzers all look a bit big for me.


You think there big but those big burrs... And the casing is quite possibly bulletproof, A SJ hopperless isn't that big really. There dirty cheap second hand from Cafes aswell.

Just a pun what about an R58 ? Expensive yeah but plenty of tech to go at that should keep you happy for quite some time.


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## sarobin (Feb 5, 2013)

Yeh - I saw the R58 - out of my budget though...


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

sarobin said:


> I don't want a grinder that is any larger than the 2 on my shortlist, and the Mazzers all look a bit big for me.


I think you won't go far wrong with either of the 2 listed grinders.

I'd throw the SJ in there too, but its a different beast.

You will get people slating Varios for the build quality (because it isn't a mazzer).

You will get people slating SJs because they have dosers (not really a problem).

You will get people slating Eurekas because they clump (supposedly)

Basically, there is no such thing as a perfect grinder..its personal choice

imho all the above will give you similar grind quality, all the above have their share of problems


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

sarobin said:


> Gary - isn't the Brewtus the same as the Expobar Leva that is on my list?


Sorry, Brewtus I what I refer to them as , rolls off the tongue better than office leva


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## SGX (Jan 9, 2011)

sarobin said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm just about to upgrade from my Jura Z5 b2c machine after 7 years. When I worked at uni yonks ago, I used to work in a cafe on a Gaggia commercial 2 group machine, so I'm familiar but rusty! Have read lots of very helpful threads on here to lead me to my shortlist:
> 
> ...


Good list of options...

Grinder:

Go with the Vario if size is an issue. *Great reports on performance.

The Eureka is a great grinder. *One of the best budget burrs on the market.

Machine:

Rocket Giotta is a fantastic machine - design and performance. I agree with the previous poster - get the Evol and give yourself the option of tank / plumb.

Maybe check out the ECM Mech or Tech IV, as they both offer the same quality for around the same price.

If the R58 or Alex are too much £££, then the above are your best options.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

RoloD said:


> The Fracino machines like the Cherub (which is basically the same as a Heavenly but with a less fancy box) are getting a very good reputation - they like the style of the Italian machines but there is nothing wrong with their build quality. Again, Expobars don't look quite as good as the Italian machines but there are many satisified users on this forum.
> 
> If you are looking in this price range, don't forget the Londinium I...
> 
> Don't personally agree with RisingPower's suggestion of a commercial machine - they are big with big boilers and consume a lot of power. They take time to warm up and are designed to be left on all day to deliver constant coffee - this does not coincide with the needs of most home users.


Iberitals l'anna is very much less so, I mean consider, the smaller la spaziales are technically commercial machines.

Heck, it takes a l'anna less time to warm up than my alex.

The e61 group is not the be all and end all.


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## sarobin (Feb 5, 2013)

L'Anna is not very pretty looking for a domestic setting in my opinion...


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

sarobin said:


> L'Anna is not very pretty looking for a domestic setting in my opinion...


Are you making coffee, or modern art?









Just because it's shiny, doesn't make it good. Look at the isomacs for example.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Have you seen my Brewtus? It looks like the love child of an austin maestro and the t1000 terminator - but the coffee is up there with the best of 'em


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## sarobin (Feb 5, 2013)

A bit of both









But seriously - I realise that shiny doesn't equal good (hence Isomac isn't on my list), but at the same time I'd like something that is a statement piece at this price.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I looked at rocket stuff, but in the end the purse just wasn't big enough. I ended up getting a fracino cherub. Which for all intents and purposes does pretty much everything a rocket cellini can do, but for almost half the price. It was a no brainer for me. And the looks are close enough to still make a serious statement, lots of shiny chrome.


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## sarobin (Feb 5, 2013)

That's why Heavenly is on the list (prefer it's look over the Cherub, but near enough the same machine otherwise). So it's just a shame that Bella Barista don't stock them as it would have been perfect to see them side by side and have a play.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

sarobin said:


> That's why Heavenly is on the list (prefer it's look over the Cherub, but near enough the same machine otherwise). So it's just a shame that Bella Barista don't stock them as it would have been perfect to see them side by side and have a play.


I absolutely love my Heavenly..

I think some of the Fracino design decisions are a bit suspect (small drip tray, plastic filler cap).

But these are really little niggles that do not really contribute to much...

For the money, there is nothing that comes close in my opinion.

(+ the UK support is invaluable).


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

shrink said:


> I looked at rocket stuff, but in the end the purse just wasn't big enough. I ended up getting a fracino cherub. Which for all intents and purposes does pretty much everything a rocket cellini can do, but for almost half the price.


While the general features are the same on these two its actually what's inside that adds to the Rocket's value. The quality of the components is superior which is why is costs more, you are not just paying for the looks! Whilst the Cherub is a good machine it would be wrong to suggest that it is basically the same as a Rocket.


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## sarobin (Feb 5, 2013)

Well, all being well I'm going up to Bella Barista tomorrow to talk things through with Claudette


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Just to add that, despite the lower price of the Cherub/Heavenly, actually the machine has been designed extremely well. It has a water-debt slap bang in the middle of the optimum range (I think this is the amount of water required to fill the group chamber before starting the shot as a built-in preinfusion but jimbow will have to correct me on this) and doesn't require cooling flushes (unlike Rockets) due to the precision of the HX circuit delivery to the group, the fact it is a mixer and the e61 style group. Excellent thermal stability, all copper boiler and solid construction.

To support this argument, the excellent Londinium-I lever machine uses most of the components from the Fracino Cherub but has a flippin' huge level group attached instead of the fracino e-61. Don't discount it just because it seems too cheap...


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

It's worth saying though, that IMHO the cherub is the better machine than the heavenly.

- heavenly doesn't have water tap as standard

- heavenly drip tray is smaller

- heavenly does not have a removable tank with in line filter, so harder to clear out descale solution

- heavenly has less storage space on top (not helped by the water tank lid)

I think a cherub in the flesh, in a colour of your choosing, would be a superb machine.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

sarobin said:


> A bit of both
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It *is* a statement. They're not exactly small.


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## sarobin (Feb 5, 2013)

Yeh - but an aesthetically pleasing statement (subjective of course) is what I'm after


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

sarobin said:


> Yeh - but an aesthetically pleasing statement (subjective of course) is what I'm after


Pah







Tbh kees van der westen and synessos are the only machines I find visually appealing, for me, the rest are just machines to serve a purpose, just some of the commercial machines fulfil it better.


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## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

Ive used an Izzo Vivi Pid for the last 3 years, great machine, not to big.


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## CoffeeDoc (Dec 26, 2012)

Let us know how you get on at Bella Barista and what you decide!

Paul


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## sarobin (Feb 5, 2013)

I wil indeed - almost more confused now


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

Have fun talking to claudette,lovely lady,it's gonna be hard to walk outta Bella without a machine,lol


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

shrink said:


> It's worth saying though, that IMHO the cherub is the better machine than the heavenly.
> 
> - heavenly doesn't have water tap as standard
> 
> ...


Also the Heavenly looks like it was designed by a 1950s hat maker on her day off.

Just my personal opinion, of course. To my mind, Fracino's aesthetics are the only area in which they fail.

Rockets certainly do look like superior machines, but apart from obvious features like rotary pumps or dual boiler/PID on some models, I haven't heard of an argument as to why they might make better coffee or last longer.

But if you are spending around a thousand pounds on a machine for your kitchen, it is quite reasonable to want want that looks great.

(I did ask Reiss once whether he would consider getting Fracino to make an E61 version of the Londinium, but he scoffed at the idea. 'I hate E61s' he said.)


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## sarobin (Feb 5, 2013)

Well - thanks to everyone on here and the fabulous Claudette at Bella Barista - I now have a Giotto Plus V2 and Eureka Mignon


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## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

congratulations









i'm dead jealous - i love the look of the rockets

what swayed you towards the giotto plus v2?

i think the mignon looks great as well (but then i do own one so i would say that







)


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## Shady (Jan 1, 2013)

Congratulations Sarobin


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## CoffeeDoc (Dec 26, 2012)

Congratulations, what made you choose that combination? Hope you have many happy hours of espresso!

Paul


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## sarobin (Feb 5, 2013)

Well, I'd narrowed it down to these:

1) Izzo vivi (which they didn't have in stock as they don't get much call for them now - Claudette was saying that they've really been superseded by newer machines).

2) Expobar Leva Dual (I had to agree with an earlier poster that in the flesh they just didn't look as nice, and also I preferred the idea of an HX over a dual boiler in the end)

3) Rocket Giotto - everything I needed and great finish. I went with the Plus v2 as opposed to the Evolutione as I have no intention of plumbing in, and couldn't justify the extra £200 for a rotary pump when a vibration pump is ample for my requirements).

Claudette spent well over 2 hours discussing pros and cons of various machines and technology, and then set up my chosen machine before taking me through all the various processes including different extraction times, and how to microfoam the milk properly (still need to practise this!). They also made minor adjustments to the boiler pressure and other little fine-tuning things. I went in and was quite prepared to buy all the bits and bobs such as different sized jugs, knock-out box, tamping mat, etc. but Claudette advised I go home and play with the machine first before deciding what I REALLY need to buy - I very much appreciated this refreshing honesty from a salesperson.

So tomorrow I will play with it properly if I have time!


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

If I had been you (and not gone down the lever path) I think I would have done the same (but maybe gone for the Cellini rather than the Giotto).

Rockets do just have the style that the other machines lack.


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## sarobin (Feb 5, 2013)

And I did have a serious think about the Londinium but it's just far too big for the space in my kitchen!


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## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

Congrats, have fun with your new machine.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

sarobin said:


> And I did have a serious think about the Londinium but it's just far too big for the space in my kitchen!


She's deep, certainly.

But if you had got to taste the coffee from an LI...


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## sarobin (Feb 5, 2013)

I'd be in the divorce courts...


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

RoloD said:


> She's deep, certainly.
> 
> But if you had got to taste the coffee from an LI...


When I discussed with my wife the prospect of getting a new machine and showed her the L1, she put her foot down and said there wasn't enough room in the kitchen to accommodate it - so we went to arbitration! The mutually agreed solution was to get a cupboard for the LI to sit on and locate it the dining area of the kitchen. This way, there are no wall cupboards to get in the way of the lever. Finding a cupboard deep enough - 50+cm was a real pain but I finally found one. The upside is the cupboard gives plenty of space to store all the coffee bits and bobs. The downside means plumbing it in is not possible.

Hope your new machine is putting a smile on your face - bet it is.


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## sarobin (Feb 5, 2013)

It is indeed! Can't yet get the milk to microfoam perfectly, but getting there. Also have just ordered a naked PF as I mainly make Americanos, and at the moment have to tip the shot into the mug of hot water resulting in loss of all crema







Claudette had initially told me to get used to the machine first as her advice was that naked PFs are very unforgiving!

Also, I don't know whether it's just a fluke, but I haven't had to do much dialling in with the Eureka Mignon - making near perfect shots (certainly timing and looks-wise) after about 3 adjustments!

What I also have to get used to is the amount of mess and cleaning compared to my old Jura B2C machine I now have to do


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