# Using a 15g VST



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Well I've been on the 15g basket for over a week now ,you will need perfect technique to get these to work .

I am loving this as this is ironing out any bad habits that I've had .

Results in the cup are good and I am really having to push the E8 and grind really fine , a lot finer than for my 18gram VST basket . This consequently has shown me how much of a good grinder I have and it hasn't missed a beat .

I am planning on travelling more down this road , just need to get an order of beans in so I can play more.

If you want to push yourself i thoughrully recommend doing this , but beware there be dragons !! And if there is a ***** in your armour you may end up with the dreaded upgradeitis.

will post up videos if anyone is remotely interested.(alternativly post yours if you can !)


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Thecatlinux said:


> Well I've been on the 15g basket for over a week now ,you will need perfect technique to get these to work .
> 
> I am loving this as this is ironing out ant bad habits I've had .
> 
> ...


Yeah definitely. I'm always interested in what info is out there. All hints and tips welcome. I'm on the cusp of ordering new baskets for my classic so this will no doubt be valuable information


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

@Thecatlinux

No intention to hijack the threat, but a quick question (since I'm exploring baskets at the mo)

I read somewhere that the 15g baskets (vs 18g) have smaller holes. It's that true?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

joey24dirt said:


> Yeah definitely. I'm always interested in what info is out there. All hints and tips welcome. I'm on the cusp of ordering new baskets for my classic so this will no doubt be valuable information


All The VST baskets are going to be less forgiving than the stock baskets , most people will opt for the 18g to get started .


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

The 15g VST is my nemesis!


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

u2jewel said:


> @Thecatlinux
> 
> No intention to hijack the threat, but a quick question (since I'm exploring baskets at the mo)
> 
> I read somewhere that the 15g baskets (vs 18g) have smaller holes. It's that true?


As far as I know they are the same , there is no mention of this on the VST site , I will try and scan the qr code on my baskets and see if the specs are different .


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I went from a VST 15g which I used for 2 years or so, but at the end settled on a VST 18g which I have been using for the past 2 years.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I went from a VST 15g which I used for 2 years or so, but at the end settled on a VST 18g which I have been using for the past 2 years.


oh I've been tempted to reach for safety of the 18g , believe me .but where's the fun in that


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

Thecatlinux said:


> As far as I know they are the same , there is no mention of this on the VST site , I will try and scan the qr code on my baskets and see if the specs are different .


Thanks!

I'm looking for a basket that will improve the mouthfeel of the cup, which in my case could be achieved (maybe) with a basket with smaller diameter outlets. Want to reduce fines in my cup, because sometimes my drink can be a touch powdery.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

are they so hard to use because you are trying to create the same resistance of an 18g dose but in a 15g dose? Does that make sense?


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I went from a VST 15g which I used for 2 years or so, but at the end settled on a VST 18g which I have been using for the past 2 years.


Is that because the shot with 18g is easier, better (preferred) or both?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The 18g is more forgiving, I belive this is due to the thickness of the bed of coffee as when you go up in size they seem to be easier to get decent pours from, as an example if I get the 20 gram basket out a great pour is much easier to acheive, however if mybptep is off or the grind consistency is not as good the 15g will expose this.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

joey24dirt said:


> are they so hard to use because you are trying to create the same resistance of an 18g dose but in a 15g dose? Does that make sense?


Yes there is less coffee in my dry puck , I still need to be able to resist the same pressure of water for the Same amount of time , I have to correct this by grinding finer . As there is less coffee cracks or defects of distribution or tamping are more likely to show up,


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Are we talking about using the 15g VST in conjuntion with a naked pf here?

Ive got a 15g VST and use it all the time with my classic but with the spouted pf and enjoy using it and enjoy the result.

I almost always aim for at least 15.5 g in the basket but depending on bean have gone up to 16.5 g and it has the same headspace.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Thecatlinux said:


> Yes there is less coffee in my dry puck , I still need to be able to resist the same pressure of water for the Same amount of time , I have to correct this by grinding finer . As there is less coffee cracks or defects of distribution or tamping are more likely to show up,


Does headspace become a factor or does that not matter? How does it affect the shot taste/strength? Sorry for the early morning interrogation


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

15g VST here, naked, 32g, for our flat whites (150ml cups)

It must be the L-R because it doesn't cause any bother and the taste is spot on time after time!


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

MildredM said:


> 15g VST here, naked, 32g, for our flat whites (150ml cups)
> 
> It must be the L-R because it doesn't cause any bother and the taste is spot on time after time!


I may need one for my flat white cups. I always feel it's too full with using a double basket


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

joey24dirt said:


> I may need one for my flat white cups. I always feel it's too full with using a double basket


A 15g is a double


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## doolallysquiff (Jul 26, 2014)

I've switched between the two. The size and frequency of the exit holes differ, and in theory you should be able to use a similar grind. I use the 18g VST purely because it wastes less coffee and I get a stronger cup.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

MildredM said:


> 15g VST here, naked, 32g, for our flat whites (150ml cups)
> 
> It must be the L-R because it doesn't cause any bother and the taste is spot on time after time!


Plus that fab grinder


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> A 15g is a double


I thought a 15g was a single? Or does it differ with the VST in particular? Different baskets different ranges?


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> I thought a 15g was a single? Or does it differ with the VST in particular? Different baskets different ranges?


It's a double on my set up


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

joey24dirt said:


> I thought a 15g was a single? Or does it differ with the VST in particular? Different baskets different ranges?


7g = single

Multiples thereof


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

u2jewel said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I'm looking for a basket that will improve the mouthfeel of the cup, which in my case could be achieved (maybe) with a basket with smaller diameter outlets. Want to reduce fines in my cup, because sometimes my drink can be a touch powdery.


If your primary concern is to reduce fines then look at this basket below , it is not a patch on the vst baskets and EY will reduce using these leading to less tasty cups . Personally i would not recommend them ( renenka )

http://www.reneka.com/technology.html

Improving mouthfeel and reducing fines in the cup could be counter productive ....

How about grinding coarser , upping your dose and , changing your brew ratio.

Re 15g vst , it was Satan's basket , especially with the Ek, props to you Cat....


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> If your primary concern is to reduce fines then look at this basket below , it is not a patch on the vst baskets and EY will reduce using these leading to less tasty cups . Personally i would not recommend them ( renenka )
> 
> http://www.reneka.com/technology.html
> 
> ...


Thanks for advice mrboots

I will look into this basket.

For now, I've reverted back to the hopper use (as opposed to single dosing) and the fines problem has gone away.

Still struggling to clearly see the correlation in my set up between baskets, grinder properties/setting and beans characteristics. There's gotta be a sweetspot combo I've yet to try before adding more variables..

On the fence at the moment between ims and vst..


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

have got 15's / 18's / 20's and 22's and switching between does require a change of grind for the same output over roughly the same time.

Concur with the above that depth in the basket affects the flow rate with the bigger ones being easier than the smaller by a huge margin.

Satan's basket doesn't even come close if you forget to change grind between 20's and 15's- splattergeddon with a naked. If you get it right and consistently use the 15 then should be no different to the others just a little bit more effort required which is why tend to stick to 18's most of the time as ease of use Vs faff is lowest









John


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

u2jewel said:


> Is that because the shot with 18g is easier, better (preferred) or both?


I prefer a higher volume drink, so the 18g gives me the extra 6g in the cup.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

LM Strada (same as VST) 7g and VST 18g with corresponding tampers.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

On a somewhat related question, what would be the equivalent IMS basket of a VST 18g and a VST 15g? I find their measurement system somewhat confusing.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> On a somewhat related question, what would be the equivalent IMS basket of a VST 18g and a VST 15g? I find their measurement system somewhat confusing.


Ah , now there you go .. they arent the same , the IMS have alot wider dose variances, which i found to be one of the downfalls to them.


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## PaulL (May 5, 2014)

I haven't used a VST and they sound a complete ballache but I'm guessing it's all in the final results. So what have users found in blind tasting or side by side comparisons with other baskets?

And why does everyone use a double, is a single VST a nightmare?


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

PaulL said:


> And why does everyone use a double, is a single VST a nightmare?


Only speaking for myself but i wouldnt bother getting a cup wet for the 14-21g output youd get from a single.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

PaulL said:


> I haven't used a VST and they sound a complete ballache but I'm guessing it's all in the final results. So what have users found in blind tasting or side by side comparisons with other baskets?
> 
> And why does everyone use a double, is a single VST a nightmare?


The single requires a second tamper which puts a lot of folk off


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If you have a capable grinder and you buy good quality coffee then vst are worth the effort.

Commodity coffee and drowning it in milk your losing the marginal gains.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

I've just got an IMS basket for my DTP with a range of 12/18g. Usually dose between 17-18g


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## PaulL (May 5, 2014)

Hasn't really answered the question guys, why is a VST worth the effort? What do you find in the cup blind-tasting or comparing with other baskets? An answer of do a search on previous threads is fine, I confess I haven't done that.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Grind finer, extract more, again good grinder and great Coffee required.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Buy one and do some tasting yourself, the extract more from the coffee due to uniformity of holes and allowing you to grind finer and extract more as boots said. However the are only as good as your grinder and the coffee that you consume


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

PaulL said:


> Hasn't really answered the question guys, why is a VST worth the effort? What do you find in the cup blind-tasting or comparing with other baskets? An answer of do a search on previous threads is fine, I confess I haven't done that.


mr boots has answered this perfectly , grind fine ,extract more.

Trying to grind this fine in a 18g basket would just stall or in my case on the L1, overextract.

judging from my caffiene head rush 'shot last night and this morning I must be doing something right .

To answer previous posts, yes this is using a naked Portafilter. You will need too other wise you won't know your extraction is good .

primerly and foremost this is a technique that will pay dividends if you're going for amazing espresso . It's not going to happen without a bit of effort .

Going back to the original post be aware this will point out any weaknesses or failings in you or your setup .


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

PaulL said:


> Hasn't really answered the question guys, why is a VST worth the effort? What do you find in the cup blind-tasting or comparing with other baskets?


Yes it's worth the effort as long as your shot prep, grinder and beans are good. If you get all of the above right it will taste better compared to stock basket. Get it wrong and it will taste like the urine of Satan.

As others have said the 15g VST is the volatile rogue cousin of the 18g. I've had a couple of forum members borrow my 15g VST and they haven't always got on with it.

Hope this helps


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## PaulL (May 5, 2014)

Ok thanks, sounds like an 18g VST produces a fabulous triple shot is the answer in practise. I typically use single basket but I've made a mental note for future ref.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

PaulL said:


> Ok thanks, sounds like an 18g VST produces a fabulous triple shot is the answer in practise. I typically use single basket but I've made a mental note for future ref.


I'd say that's a double shot if you want to go by old school conventions. A triple shot would be VST 20g or 22g.

I've been using a VSTs for a while now, starting back in the day with my humble Gaggia Classic. It has just became the standard for me. 2 years ago I've compared it with a stock basket. I found that the VST basket gives you more clarity on the flavours in the cup.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

You guys seen that you can get a 25g VST now? Might get one to make 2 drinks at a time (following on from the thread the other day)


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## doolallysquiff (Jul 26, 2014)

More on the 15g VST:https://colonnacoffee.com/blogs/maxwell/15g-baskets


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

doolallysquiff said:


> More on the 15g VST:https://colonnacoffee.com/blogs/maxwell/15g-baskets


Ah reading this article would seem to suggest there is a difference with the holes and spaces of the different size baskets.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

igm45 said:


> You guys seen that you can get a 25g VST now? Might get one to make 2 drinks at a time (following on from the thread the other day)


Yes I saw this , unless I master the Fellini moves or chop in for LR I am not going to be able to use this .

(Now repeating "I dont need an LR" 100 times)


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Thecatlinux said:


> Yes I saw this , unless I master the Fellini moves or chop in for LR I am not going to be able to use this .
> 
> (Now repeating "I dont need an LR" 100 times)


Everyone needs an LR.......


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> Everyone needs an LR.......


Hear! Hear!


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> Everyone needs an LR.......


i am not listening


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Thecatlinux said:


> i am not listening


Sort of makes me think about that Oscar Wilde quote:

We are all in the *gutter, but some of us are looking at the **stars. *


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Thecatlinux said:


> i am not listening


Is it time for the enabler


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

I knew you'd pop up . LOL

I dont need an LR just so I can use a 25g basket .


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

MildredM said:


> Sort of makes me think about that Oscar Wilde quote:
> 
> We are all in the *gutter, but some of us are looking at the **stars. *


 I am trying not to look at the stars because The scary thing is every time I go to a rave day I always seem to leave with more than I arrived .


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Thecatlinux said:


> I am trying not to look at the stars because The scary thing is every time I go to a rave day I always seem to leave with more than I arrived .


Rave day? Is there one coming soon?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Rave day? Is there one coming soon?


Yes just sorting out the finer stuff


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Well a week on with the 15g and the outputs have been interesting , This isn't as forgiving as the larger 18 and after changing my beans I have really noticed how much I have to tweak grinder settings to get to at least pre hump .

If you take your time with the distribution and tamp the results are fantastic .

Using the plastic perg has been intresting and the fit in the basket is just off too tight , because the basket is shallower there is no lateral movement , and I have altered my technique to press which a slight twist.(whilst flat)

I did have an interesting event midweek where I removed the tamper and a perfect puck was still attached to the tamper base , I carefully put this back in the basket , My first thought was just bin it. Curiosity got the better of me and I expected this to channel, no question . A gentle pull on the lever a gentle release at 8sec pre infusion and what do you know poured perfectly .

Now I am guessing with my fine grind I am getting quite big swell during my pre infusion , I know the puck is coming loose a few times as I've had a few vanishing pucks , only to find them stuck to the shower screen .

Really loving this , being honest all the shots are drinkable not all are perfect but some of them are absolutely stellar .

This is like going back to the start of my coffee journey and guess what ,I have even gone back to warming my espresso cups pre shot .

PS Not being controversial but I am with Coffeechap, and would have loved to see how well the new niche coped with this .


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

For those of you who can single dose.

What I'm about to say is not vst specific, but since there's a general relevance, I thought I'd mention it.

You'd expect many variables to affect the cup quality. Age and quality of beans, preparation by the operator, grinder and type of burr used etc.. You'd expect all of these factors and their combinations to play a significant role in the end result.

Been doing some reading recently, and as an extension on what Matt Perger was talking about with regard to grind distribution, he mentioned bean temperature (not grinder temp) as a factor.

Since I can single dose, I gave it a try. 2 shots back to back, all variables controlled to the same except bean temp. One batch chilled overnight, the other left out room temp. Too early to reach any personal or definitive conclusion, but already I am seeing a massive difference in end result.

So big are the differences! Maybe it's old news to some, but it's a new discovery for me. As an operator always trying to achieve the best result in the cup, it is something that can easily be experimented and evaluated. Give it a try. It is such an underrated factor. For sure it is more influential than tamping pressure people used to bang on about (I guess people don't now, but just as an example..)


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