# Flair 58



## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Hey guys, let's start a new topic as the old one got taken over and locked (sorry!).

I had an email from Doppio today saying they *hope* they will have stock in August.

Anyone got theirs yet? Interested with results.


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## Chriss29 (Oct 21, 2020)

I think the moments passed for me. The more I look at it the more I think it's worth waiting for the second version if not at all.

Seems there's a few QC issues and I can't get over the cable arrangement, just seems a bit DIY somehow.

@newdent Are you still keen?


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Chriss29 said:


> I think the moments passed for me. The more I look at it the more I think it's worth waiting for the second version if not at all.
> 
> Seems there's a few QC issues and I can't get over the cable arrangement, just seems a bit DIY somehow.
> 
> @newdent Are you still keen?


 Would be quite some time for a second version though wouldn't it?

I just don't think I could go back to an espresso machine that doesn't have pressure control. Obviously end goal is the decent but I don't think I'd be able to justify that cost for a long time.

I remember pondering on the things I liked and disliked about the robot and the flair *almost* coves all bases. I don't like the materials the 58 looks to be made from, it looks like that cheap metal that home gym equipment is made from. I've read the thing flexes a fair bit during use.

I can live with the power pack because part of the 58's appeal is being able to pre-heat. The power pack seems like it could be better. Apparently it's possible to misalign one of the connectors in a way that allows damage to the controller.

So yes, a few issues. I have no allegiance to the flair, if there was another option I'd go for it but there's no other options I know of! Please let me know if you know any!


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

Hi

I am going to get the Flair 58 when it arrives into the UK. I too have been told by Doppio that it should be in August and that there will also be a non-heated version i.e. without the electrical connection.........interesting!

However I don't think it looks all that bad, after all if you buy an item with a heated element of some kind it has to draw power somehow. Yes the electrical connector could look better as I think overall the Flair is a great looking lever machine. The wood accents etc on Flair 58 look neat, I like machines like the Bianca with wood handles/paddles etc.

You asked a question re alternatives and the only real competitors to Flair appear to be Cafelat (Robot) and Rok. Apart from that if you want a more mechanical lever machine then there are the La Pavoni's but then you get into the realms of greater maintenance such as descaling etc.

I'm all for the Flair 58 at the present time and cannot wait for it to arrive on our shores.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

Hey guys

Here is a further thought/question.........do you think the purchase of a Niche Zero would further enhance the use of the Flair 58 or would you believe a decent hand grinder, such as the 1zpresso JE Plus, would marry nicely with the manual lever. I will probably settle down making circa 4 coffees per day, albeit double espressos may be pulled as single shots i.e. just 2 lever pulls per day, once the novelty dies down (clearly to begin with I will be keen to try it out and like most of us go overboard with its initial use.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Having used a few manual grinders before... For me at least, irrespective of whether you want to be "involved" with the process... A motorised grinder for me works best.

There were times I just couldn't be bothered to grind manually first thing in the morning. Even if it only took 30 seconds (plus cleaning up/mess/faff).

Dialling in a new bean could be an interesting experience. 🙂


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## Luca06 (Feb 13, 2021)

For what it's wort, I thought I give a little update. My Flair 58 came about 3 weeks ago and I only now had the time to play around with it.

I use it at a location when I am not at home as I have a lelit Biance there. It's the office and other place I regularly work from for longer period of time. Especially for this purpose it's absolutely brilliant. The footprint is relatively small, the Espresso is great and the process of preparation is a joy - if you take it as '7 minute' break from the day. You don't need to massively 30-45 minutes pre-heat and for 2-3 Coffees a day it absolutely serves it purpose and you don't have the energy consumption.

It feels high-quality, although the portafilter-holder feels more like a chinese-one. Compared to the heavier Lelit. However that can be changed over time. And most of all it's fun to use. As written everywhere the chargerblock, cable-work for the heating element is very bulky and kills the design a bit. However therefore it works brilliant. So that's a small pain I am willing to deal with.

In hindsight is it worth for me after this short period of time ? Yes - for my purposes: a decent espresso when I am not at my home location. Would I buy it again as a 2nd device as I originally intended ? No. Will I take it back home now ? No. Is it worth the price ? Difficult to judge. For the portability and footprint, its justified over buying a couple of bigger chunky machines for me.

I think its great for people wo work longer on different locations, have 2nd homes, gardensheds, campervans etc. and want to enjoy good espresso there. Basically everywhere where you normally would put a slim-pod-machine, this thing can go. If you do have your 7 minutes of prep time.

Hope this helps others.


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## nufc1 (May 11, 2015)

Been following the 58 for a while and see there's a brewing guide for the 58x, without the electronic pre-heat, up on YouTube.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Interesting&#8230;

One thing I noticed: first shot, the PF is cold. On the second shot, he says not to rinse the PF to maintain heat. 🤷‍♂️. Personally, I'd rinse the PF in boiling water on my first shot.


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## Chriss29 (Oct 21, 2020)

I've just noticed the 58x is only $80 less than the heated version. I'm not sure what you'd go for the X to only save $80?

Has anyone had an update from Doppio as to when they'll get the 58 in stock?


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

Chriss29 said:


> I've just noticed the 58x is only $80 less than the heated version. I'm not sure what you'd go for the X to only save $80?
> 
> Has anyone had an update from Doppio as to when they'll get the 58 in stock?


 No I haven't heard anything, Doppio have been very quiet and the prices are about to go up as well, Flair have held them down for as long as they could.

Someone is selling one on Ebay at the moment but it's not a bargain!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114924858240?hash=item1ac20e2b80:g:XicAAOSw1fBhDc6W


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## Chriss29 (Oct 21, 2020)

Irisco said:


> No I haven't heard anything, Doppio have been very quiet and the prices are about to go up as well, Flair have held them down for as long as they could.
> 
> Someone is selling one on Ebay at the moment but it's not a bargain!
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114924858240?hash=item1ac20e2b80:g:XicAAOSw1fBhDc6W


 Thanks! I received the email from Flair this morning about the price increase but I don't think it said by how much it will increase. Will be interesting to see, clearly it's been popular, which is a good sign.

I've give the ebay one a miss I think


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## Chriss29 (Oct 21, 2020)

So looks like the Flair 58 has been updated already! Seems a good upgrade although it has gone up by $50. That does now include the puck screen though which is good.

Available October.

Doppio still hoping for the end of this month for stock though I presume this will be the old version now.

Anyone still interested?


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Just saw the email regarding the update. Seems like a better solution than breaking the PF seal to let the air pocket out.

Not as bad a price increase as I anticipated, especially as the puck screen is included. Funny that flair didn't mention there was going to be an update when they encouraged people to snap up the existing flair 58 before the price increase in emails!

I wish the flair had a more traditional water dispersion setup so that is was more comparable to existing pumped machines. With the screen there, there isn't any scope for 'blooming' whilst the headspace is filled. This may not be an important factor but it's certainly something that happens.

I currently use a robot and do think the capability to control temp would be a great feature for light roast drinkers, I certainly wouldn't say no to having the option. It would be too much of a PITA to pre-heat my robot. I'm keeping my eye on the Odyssey Argos, which isn't massively more expensive than the Flair 58 ($850) but it certainly has its issues. Don't think I've seen a good shot poured on it yet on social media and it looked very flimsy when locking the PF in on video.

Either way, I'm in no rush and don't think I'll rush into buying either, especially as both are likely to get updated!


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Chriss29 said:


> So looks like the Flair 58 has been updated already!


 Seems to be their business model - they've done it since the original Flair at fairly regular intervals. Could be frustrating if you've just bought the 'latest' model to find out it's already been upgraded. Normally backwards compatible though so not too much of an issue nevertheless.


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

Stevebee said:


> Seems to be their business model - they've done it since the original Flair at fairly regular intervals. Could be frustrating if you've just bought the 'latest' model to find out it's already been upgraded. Normally backwards compatible though so not too much of an issue nevertheless.





newdent said:


> Just saw the email regarding the update. Seems like a better solution than breaking the PF seal to let the air pocket out.
> 
> Not as bad a price increase as I anticipated, especially as the puck screen is included. Funny that flair didn't mention there was going to be an update when they encouraged people to snap up the existing flair 58 before the price increase in emails!
> 
> ...





Chriss29 said:


> So looks like the Flair 58 has been updated already! Seems a good upgrade although it has gone up by $50. That does now include the puck screen though which is good.
> 
> Available October.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the info. Doppio really seem to be dragging their heels with this (probably through no fault of their own) but 6 weeks has turned into what feels like 6 months with no communication or updates, seems a strange way to keep customers interested and now if they do have the older model they will be playing catch up. I do wonder if I wait a bit longer that Flair may make other changes like programmable temperature settings rather than just low, medium , high. Perhaps I'm hoping for too much from a manual machine that has to fit into a certain price bracket but I do wonder if the Flair 58 is still work in progress.


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## Chriss29 (Oct 21, 2020)

Latest model now available at Doppio for £525. Not as expensive as I thought it would be. Anyone tempted?


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## Luca06 (Feb 13, 2021)

Yes, I am a fan and just bought one from Doppio. I left my original one in one location and will use this one at work. As my post above stated, I believe it suits my purpose of 2-3 dubble espresso a day perfectly. It's super easy to hold clean and at work I don't want to have my weekly 30 minutes of machine cleaning ritual.


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## Chriss29 (Oct 21, 2020)

Luca06 said:


> Yes, I am a fan and just bought one from Doppio. I left my original one in one location and will use this one at work. As my post above stated, I believe it suits my purpose of 2-3 dubble espresso a day perfectly. It's super easy to hold clean and at work I don't want to have my weekly 30 minutes of machine cleaning ritual.


 Agree the cleanup seems really good and you don't need to worry about scale too I guess ☺. Can you tell much difference in the espresso compared to your Bianca?


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## Luca06 (Feb 13, 2021)

The Bianca seems to be more constant. Once put the workflow right, nearly always hit the identical sweet spot for me. With the flair it 'feels' always in a range of +/- 15% upwards/downwards of that. Due to the lever, your own interference with pressure etc. But that's exactly what I like about it. Because where is the ideal sweet spot of a coffee? Would you drink 10 cups next to a Bianca you'd notice a difference maybe. Positive or negative to be left open. But that's not what I do. I come at work and pull a fantastic shot from the flair to start the day. And as I am not James H. it's perfect enough for me.

There are lots of great reviews out there, but for the ones speaking German the "Kaffeemacher" made a great review about it. Strengthening my decision to buy another one.

For me it simply beats any other Espresso setup that I can think of that for 525£ makes a great cup. Little cleaning, little use of electricity and super simple. Great for 2nd locations or 'something different'. If this is your go-to machine at home, ultimately you might want something more universal. But luckily I have the possibility to enjoy both.


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## Chriss29 (Oct 21, 2020)

Thanks @Luca06 for the in-depth reply, very useful. I wish I could speak German as the Kaffemacher reviews seem really good. YouTube auto subtitles are pretty useless unfortunately 🤣


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Chriss29 said:


> Latest model now available at Doppio for £525. Not as expensive as I thought it would be. Anyone tempted?


 Picked up the email from Doppio today too and was also surprised by the price. The potential for brewing light roast vs the robot is appealing but then again, with the robot you can decide you want a coffee and have one made in less than 5 mins and that's great and I definitely do that some days. Dunno.

Probably the biggest drawback for me is that it looks like someone's taken apart an old weight lifting bench and used the parts to build the 58 - it really looks cheap to my eye. The pro 2 is quite pleasing to the eye but the proportions look off on the 58, it's chunky and oversized.


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## Chriss29 (Oct 21, 2020)

newdent said:


> Picked up the email from Doppio today too and was also surprised by the price. The potential for brewing light roast vs the robot is appealing but then again, with the robot you can decide you want a coffee and have one made in less than 5 mins and that's great and I definitely do that some days. Dunno.
> 
> Probably the biggest drawback for me is that it looks like someone's taken apart an old weight lifting bench and used the parts to build the 58 - it really looks cheap to my eye. The pro 2 is quite pleasing to the eye but the proportions look off on the 58, it's chunky and oversized.


 I think it looks quite refined however I think it will evolve and get better which is why I've decided to opt out of this version for now. Also, a small thing, but that pressure gauge is just awful 🤣 .


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## Fadingfrontier (Aug 17, 2021)

Chriss29 said:


> I think it looks quite refined however I think it will evolve and get better which is why I've decided to opt out of this version for now. Also, a small thing, but that pressure gauge is just awful 🤣 .


 Yeah and you know with Flair that a new version will be out in no time.

For me workflow still seems like a pain compared to the Robot, which sets a high standard. There's also almost certainly less room for things to go wrong when you have a solid build, no electronics inside, and only need to wait for the kettle to heat.

I know manuals get a bad reputation for light roasts but I've not had any problems getting good shots out of the lighter beans I've tried with the Robot either.


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

Fadingfrontier said:


> Yeah and you know with Flair that a new version will be out in no time.
> 
> For me workflow still seems like a pain compared to the Robot, which sets a high standard. There's also almost certainly less room for things to go wrong when you have a solid build, no electronics inside, and only need to wait for the kettle to heat.
> 
> I know manuals get a bad reputation for light roasts but I've not had any problems getting good shots out of the lighter beans I've tried with the Robot either.


 I have used both a traditional lever style machine and the Robot and whilst the Robot is exceptionally well made and can make really good coffee, I would chose a traditional lever any day of the week. Having to use both hands to pull a shot on the Robot whilst looking at a very small pressure gauge is not easy, especially if you are only 5" nothing with small hands and have to stand on a stool which is quite ridiculous 🤣. With the Flair you have one hand free to pull the cup away and get a much more accurate end to the shot. You can use other 58mm accessories, something you can't do with the Robot and the heated capability helps to "relax" the workflow. I find with the Robot I'm rushing to get everything together to avoid heat being lost and it can become quite irritating when not everything goes in a streamline manner and heat is lost. If the electrics on the Flair did fail you can still use it as a fully manually heated machine just with the use of the cap that is provided. The Flair can also easily have the Smart pressure profiler added if your looking to improve consistency/repeatability and track your shots (this can also be achieved on the Robot but to me looks far more in keeping with the Flair 58).

The frame of the Flair may not be comparable to something like the "Strietman" but then it costs about 75% less (at a guess 🤔) Flair must stress test it's design and materials during development and most of the original basic Flairs are still fully functioning years after first being released. Flair is an excellent company with incredible customer service in my opinion and they seem to bend over backwards to help the customer.

I'm sure they will upgrade at some point but, I suspect, they will introduce different colour options first. The problem with always trying to ensure you get the latest, best, most recently improved model is that your not enjoying the "today" because your waiting for a better "tomorrow" 😊


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Irisco said:


> I have used both a traditional lever style machine and the Robot and whilst the Robot is exceptionally well made and can make really good coffee, I would chose a traditional lever any day of the week. Having to use both hands to pull a shot on the Robot whilst looking at a very small pressure gauge is not easy, especially if you are only 5" nothing with small hands and have to stand on a stool which is quite ridiculous 🤣. With the Flair you have one hand free to pull the cup away and get a much more accurate end to the shot. You can use other 58mm accessories, something you can't do with the Robot and the heated capability helps to "relax" the workflow. I find with the Robot I'm rushing to get everything together to avoid heat being lost and it can become quite irritating when not everything goes in a streamline manner and heat is lost. If the electrics on the Flair did fail you can still use it as a fully manually heated machine just with the use of the cap that is provided. The Flair can also easily have the Smart pressure profiler added if your looking to improve consistency/repeatability and track your shots (this can also be achieved on the Robot but to me looks far more in keeping with the Flair 58).
> 
> The frame of the Flair may not be comparable to something like the "Strietman" but then it costs about 75% less (at a guess 🤔) Flair must stress test it's design and materials during development and most of the original basic Flairs are still fully functioning years after first being released. Flair is an excellent company with incredible customer service in my opinion and they seem to bend over backwards to help the customer.
> 
> I'm sure they will upgrade at some point but, I suspect, they will introduce different colour options first. The problem with always trying to ensure you get the latest, best, most recently improved model is that your not enjoying the "today" because your waiting for a better "tomorrow" 😊


 I think adding a bracket so that the gauge is in this positions makes a huge difference; https://www.naked-portafilter.com/product/smart-espresso-profiler-for-machines-with-an-e61-group-head-new-stock-expected-end-of-november-copy/ just use a small piece of metal with a nylon washer. The flair will be easier but that lever is absolutely massive. I think I'd also prefer a single lever but not the size of the 58.

Interesting your issues with heatloss, does it effect your coffee? I fill the basket and have it locked in within a few seconds. It did feel slightly frantic initially but I started slowing down and a few seconds doesn't make any difference to the taste of the coffee to me, so I just chill out now, don't rush at all.

You pull the cup away to end the shot? I just lift the robot levers and the shot stops instantly.


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

newdent said:


> I think adding a bracket so that the gauge is in this positions makes a huge difference; https://www.naked-portafilter.com/product/smart-espresso-profiler-for-machines-with-an-e61-group-head-new-stock-expected-end-of-november-copy/ just use a small piece of metal with a nylon washer. The flair will be easier but that lever is absolutely massive. I think I'd also prefer a single lever but not the size of the 58.
> 
> Interesting your issues with heatloss, does it effect your coffee? I fill the basket and have it locked in within a few seconds. It did feel slightly frantic initially but I started slowing down and a few seconds doesn't make any difference to the taste of the coffee to me, so I just chill out now, don't rush at all.
> 
> You pull the cup away to end the shot? I just lift the robot levers and the shot stops instantly.


 Thanks, that does look interesting but it doesn't get rid of my height problem to actually view it, unless I put it on a kiddies table 🤣. Do you use the pressurised basket to preheat the piston ? I've been putting the portafilter and basket into a jug of boiling water and lowering the piston into a sepatate small cup of boiling water to preheat it. Trouble is, it's such a massive chunk of metal I find it loses heat really quickly and I do prefer lighter roasts. I think Paul says preheating isn't necessary but he uses darker roasts.

With ending the shot I do lift the levers but I just find it all a bit hit and miss, it can easily go over what you want and doesn't seem very exact. Maybe it's just me, they are lovely machines and the build quality is terrific.


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Irisco said:


> Thanks, that does look interesting but it doesn't get rid of my height problem to actually view it, unless I put it on a kiddies table 🤣. Do you use the pressurised basket to preheat the piston ? I've been putting the portafilter and basket into a jug of boiling water and lowering the piston into a sepatate small cup of boiling water to preheat it. Trouble is, it's such a massive chunk of metal I find it loses heat really quickly and I do prefer lighter roasts. I think Paul says preheating isn't necessary but he uses darker roasts.
> 
> With ending the shot I do lift the levers but I just find it all a bit hit and miss, it can easily go over what you want and doesn't seem very exact. Maybe it's just me, they are lovely machines and the build quality is terrific.


 Ah, well if you're a light roast drinker then I'd agree that it's a fair amount of faff to keep everything at temperature and the 58 resolves that issue rather well. That alone would make me jump ship I'd imagine.

As it stands a prefer a medium roast espresso and a light roast filter so the robot is fine with me for now but if a version of the 58 comes out that I like the look of, I'd certainly consider swapping. I don't find the robot particularly comfortable to brew with, even with the addition of the mittens but it was £200 cheaper than the 58 and that's made the decision for me for now. I wish I could see a 58 in person as maybe it's not as bad as it looks in photos.


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## LouisC (Oct 6, 2021)

newdent said:


> Just saw the email regarding the update. Seems like a better solution than breaking the PF seal to let the air pocket out.
> 
> Not as bad a price increase as I anticipated, especially as the puck screen is included. Funny that flair didn't mention there was going to be an update when they encouraged people to snap up the existing flair 58 before the price increase in emails!
> 
> ...


 @newdentim considering either the flair 58 or robot, and am in analysis paralysis. Can you elaborate why pre-heating would be a pain? Thanks!


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

LouisC said:


> @newdentim considering either the flair 58 or robot, and am in analysis paralysis. Can you elaborate why pre-heating would be a pain? Thanks!


 You would need a system for heating the basket, PF and piston. It is doable but an inconvenience. I don't drink light roast espresso, so don't know to what degree this must be done.

I'd be much more concerned about the temperature of the water dropping during long pre infusions and extractions on light roasts and that's where the flair 58 would beat the robot. Cafelat have videos showing the temperature drop on the robot during a normal shot and it's not significant.

I don't pre heat on the robot with medium roast but I might start leaving the piston in hot water briefly so the first and second shot are more consistent. I find the second shot overextracts slightly compared with the first where nothing has been preheated.


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

LouisC said:


> @newdentim considering either the flair 58 or robot, and am in analysis paralysis. Can you elaborate why pre-heating would be a pain? Thanks!


 If I can be of any help, I had the Flair 58 delivered about 3 weeks ago with an email to say they had delivered the older version and not the newer updated version that I had ordered ( every order was the same not just mine, it was a mix up). They gave me the choice of sending it back or having the upgraded parts sent when they become available but they did sent the puck screen which they had in stock. Shots were a nightmare, just flooded out, I naively never gave any thought to the difference the bigger group would make and you really do need a very good grinder. I'm at half the setting I'm normally on with the Niche and also with my EK which doesn't leave me much room at all on the latter. With the robot both grinders were more than capable and the EK was at 1.5 - 2 now I'm on 0.3 which is a concern as the reason I bought it was for lighter roasts and the heating element to use with the EK. This I don't completely understand as the Robot is ,although not a true 58mm ,is almost there and I have no issues at all with the grind size and have loads of wiggle room. The grinder issue must be quite a big problem as the older models came with a non pressurised fast flow straight sided basket but the newer model has now been replaced with a low flow more tapered basket because so many people seem to be having problems. Build quality is okay, not half as good as the Robot. The heating chamber twists about when you unlock the portafilter which isn't very satisfactory despite tightening the grub screw multiple times and the lever needs a huge amount of clearance as you need it almost vertical to take out the pressure gauge plunger. For the money it's okay but nothing like a steam powered lever machine, the piston can be quite jumpy when you pull down (like when you drive over small bumps in the road). I can see why more traditional lever machines have smaller groups , the Flair needs big doses with a super fine grind especially if using IMS/VST baskets.


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## LouisC (Oct 6, 2021)

@Irisco thank you! Great to know about the build quality differences also - I personally feel like I get a lot of satisfaction over perceiving a high build quality. How does Robot handle light roasts for you?


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

LouisC said:


> @Irisco thank you! Great to know about the build quality differences also - I personally feel like I get a lot of satisfaction over perceiving a high build quality. How does Robot handle light roasts for you?


 I've always managed with lighter roasts but preheating everything is key. It's always a trade off between good puck prep and heat loss, you have to work fast. I'm not sure how it compares to automatic machines with light roasts but I've always been happy with them. The build quality on the Robot is very good and you can see Paul has put his heart and soul into it. Everything has been well thought out and nothing scrimped on. I suppose this is why there only needs to be one model and not an updated version year on year out.


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## iBear87 (Sep 12, 2021)

Luca06 said:


> The Bianca seems to be more constant. Once put the workflow right, nearly always hit the identical sweet spot for me. With the flair it 'feels' always in a range of +/- 15% upwards/downwards of that. Due to the lever, your own interference with pressure etc. But that's exactly what I like about it. Because where is the ideal sweet spot of a coffee? Would you drink 10 cups next to a Bianca you'd notice a difference maybe. Positive or negative to be left open. But that's not what I do. I come at work and pull a fantastic shot from the flair to start the day. And as I am not James H. it's perfect enough for me.
> 
> There are lots of great reviews out there, but for the ones speaking German the "Kaffeemacher" made a great review about it. Strengthening my decision to buy another one.
> 
> For me it simply beats any other Espresso setup that I can think of that for 525£ makes a great cup. Little cleaning, little use of electricity and super simple. Great for 2nd locations or 'something different'. If this is your go-to machine at home, ultimately you might want something more universal. But luckily I have the possibility to enjoy both.


 Hi! Quick question, I am still fighting to figure out which one to buy, F58 or Bianca.
How is your experience with both up to now?
If you were to choose, which one would you buy?

Any significant trade off if we disregard the milk steaming part?

The price difference is substantial and I am wondering is it worth it. 

For a grinder, I preordered the Eureka Oro Single dose and can't wait to get it delivered ☺

Thnx in advance for the input! 
Ivan


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

iBear87 said:


> Hi! Quick question, I am still fighting to figure out which one to buy, F58 or Bianca.
> How is your experience with both up to now?
> If you were to choose, which one would you buy?
> 
> ...


 That's a comparison most people would not make😊The Bianca is in a completely different league to the Flair and has milk steaming capabilities. I wonder if the fact your even comparing the two makes me think the Bianca would be more suited to you and you would find a purely manual machine slow and tiresome after a while. I know the Bianca is a really highly regarded machine that people love.


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

Irisco said:


> That's a comparison most people would not make😊The Bianca is in a completely different league to the Flair and has milk steaming capabilities. I wonder if the fact your even comparing the two makes me think the Bianca would be more suited to you and you would find a purely manual machine slow and tiresome after a while. I know the Bianca is a really highly regarded machine that people love.





iBear87 said:


> Hi! Quick question, I am still fighting to figure out which one to buy, F58 or Bianca.
> How is your experience with both up to now?
> If you were to choose, which one would you buy?
> 
> ...


 I suppose you really need to break down what you want from a machine as well . I think you first need to decide whether it's a lever machine your interested in or an automatic, albeit it with certain "paddle" controls. What is your work flow? Do you want the ability to steam milk? For the budget you are considering, there are far better lever machines than the Flair 58. If I was looking for an automatic I would chose the Bianca though as it seems with all of the options for control that you have with it then you almost have the best of both worlds. Please don't quote me on this! My knowledge of machines is pretty miniscule.🤔


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## Chriss29 (Oct 21, 2020)

@irisco Did you purchase a Flair 58 in the end?


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## iBear87 (Sep 12, 2021)

Thank you



Irisco said:


> I suppose you really need to break down what you want from a machine as well . I think you first need to decide whether it's a lever machine your interested in or an automatic, albeit it with certain "paddle" controls. What is your work flow? Do you want the ability to steam milk? For the budget you are considering, there are far better lever machines than the Flair 58. If I was looking for an automatic I would chose the Bianca though as it seems with all of the options for control that you have with it then you almost have the best of both worlds. Please don't quote me on this! My knowledge of machines is pretty miniscule.🤔


 Thank you for the input!

I was sure I want Bianca because it has it all inside and the only real problem I am having is the water. In Croatia, water is super hard and the deposit builds up very fast! So not sure how to figure that part out. If I can solve that, I would have no problem with getting it. Flair 58 is super easy to maintain and hard water should be no issue at all.

What I am wondering, and I think it is already mentioned here, is how similar is the output of the two? If they make very similar espresso then it voids the need for Bianca. But if Bianca gives better output in the long run, then Flair is not worth it. I sometimes make milk drinks but it is not a must al the time.

I am also not a full beginner so no problems with more work and similar around coffee. And the grinder (Eureka Single Dose) should be good for both of them to work with.

Ivan


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

Chriss29 said:


> @irisco Did you purchase a Flair 58 in the end?



View attachment cdf729a5-2d26-41a2-bb22-aef3417649ef.mp4


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

iBear87 said:


> Thank you
> 
> Thank you for the input!
> 
> ...


 I think you'll be hard pressed trying to find someone who has experience of both machines side by side, they are very different beasts 😊 but I suppose you just never know!


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## Chriss29 (Oct 21, 2020)

Irisco said:


> View attachment 60833


 @IriscoOh no! Not a good experience I take it?


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

Chriss29 said:


> @IriscoOh no! Not a good experience I take it?


 It all just got off to a bad start with the wrong model being sent to me and many others . Communication was terrible ,it seemed everyone was and still is working from home. This just soured it a bit , nothing compared to world problems I know but not a good experience unfortunately.

The unit is okay, the quality is alright but nothing compared to how well the Robot is made and naively I didn't understand how fine I would have to grind with the 58mm group head. This isn't a problem but I'm not a fan of large doses (18 - 20g) and really this is what to you need as anything less can become more problematic .

It's not bad but I wasn't blown away with how good it was either. It juddered quite a bit when you pulled a shot and there just didn't feel like there was much weight to it. Had I had a more positive experience from the start then I may still have my rose tinted glasses on ! 🤩


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Hoffmann has chimed in:


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## Chriss29 (Oct 21, 2020)

Seems to like it, though his frustrations seem fairly minor to me. I'll be interested to see if Flair update the power pack setup though I think that may increase the price too much. I think £600 is the limit they could ever charge given a La Pavoni which does more is the same price.


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

In true Hoffman style, he's fretting over minor issues as he did with his DF64 review. He's obviously absolutely right in what he says but I doubt it's an issue for most people as you'd imagine they'll set it up and never touch it again. No doubt flair will resolve the polarity issue once they've used up their current stock.

They can charge whatever people will pay though. Like he mentioned, try to think of another brand new machine that gives you that level of control and you'll struggle. The Bianca comes with flow and temperature control as standard but is approaching £2K. Sure you could get a different PID E61 machine and add flow control but you're going to be looking at what, £1500+ so £550 for the features the 58 has isn't bad, even adding on £100ish for a bellman steamer if you drink milky drinks. How does the la pavoni do with lighter roasts? Is the thicker puck an issue?

Personally, I've got cheap used gaggia classic (£50) and have bought all the bits for a PID, pressure gauge and dimmer mod. Am hoping to have a machine with full control for about £100. Would consider something like the Bianca in future. I've had my Cafelat Robot for about 4 months now and I do tire of the workflow of these fully manual machines. I long to be able to use all my 58mm accessories, including single shot baskets. It's been fun and informative but time to get back to a proper machine. ☺


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Interesting. To me the biggest appeal for that machine is is that I can use whichever water I want, without the need to worry about limescale build up inside boilers.

Something like the Flair, paired with a steaming device, seems to be a very appealing proposition.

I agree with the Hoff with regards to the wiring. Something less bulky and more simplistic in terms of wiring would be beneficial and fit with the overall design of the machine. If I had one, I would just keep it parked at the same spot and switch on/off on the wall sort of thing. Or would I need to connectors in that sequence?


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Interesting. To me the biggest appeal for that machine is is that I can use whichever water I want, without the need to worry about limescale build up inside boilers.
> 
> Something like the Flair, paired with a steaming device, seems to be a very appealing proposition.
> 
> I agree with the Hoff with regards to the wiring. Something less bulky and more simplistic in terms of wiring would be beneficial and fit with the overall design of the machine. If I had one, I would just keep it parked at the same spot and switch on/off on the wall sort of thing. Or would I need to connectors in that sequence?


 The connectors are just when setting up/taking apart as far as I'm aware. I'm not sure if the machine powers on from the wall though, so standard smart plugs might not work. I seemed to remember flair recommending a type of smart 'bot', might have the name wrong, that can press the buttons on the three button controller. Someone maybe @Irisco can confirm how it's switched on.


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

newdent said:


> The connectors are just when setting up/taking apart as far as I'm aware. I'm not sure if the machine powers on from the wall though, so standard smart plugs might not work. I seemed to remember flair recommending a type of smart 'bot', might have the name wrong, that can press the buttons on the three button controller. Someone maybe @Irisco can confirm how it's switched on.


 Thanks for posting the JH review, this was the first time I've watched it. I agree with the "reviewers syndrome" where you micro analyse and focus on things that normally you would just live with and not give too much thought. A very honest review I thought but I personally don't agree with him when he says he would like the temperature control buttons integrated into the frame of the Flair. At least the way it is set up at the moment , if something were to go wrong , you could just remove the heating element part of machine and replace this very easily. If the heating were to be incorporated into the frame then the whole thing would have to be mended/replaced and in my mind would turn it into another throw away commodity like the Sage machines? 🤔.

The machine powers on really simply through the socket in the wall but you have to click press the buttons for the heating up of the machine. When you turn it off there is no memory of these settings and you have to physically press the button on the controller each time to set the heat requirement. There is no heat from just turning it on at the wall so a smart plug wouldn't work unless you did something really clever with the controller. To be honest it only takes a few minutes to heat up and people saying about locking in the portafilter to heat it up to me is nonsense because I've left it in for 20-30 minutes and it takes on very little heat. I personally can't see any advantage to letting it heat up for 20 minutes over the minimum 5-10 minutes, as soon as it beeps to say it has reached the heat no more is to be gained by waiting IMO ( heating up the portafilter in boiling water would work much better).

I can get what JH says about the confusion surrounding disconnecting and connecting the machine but Andrew Pernicano simplifies it by just saying when setting up you "start at the machine and work your way to the plug" before you turn it on and when disconnecting you "start at the plug and disconnect up to the machine" . Making sure everything is turned off at the plug before disconnecting is just common sense with anything electrical isn't it? You can stress the heating element if you take it apart with it "live" and it's not connected to anything but hopefully you would have the common sense not to do this anyway?

I have to say I am enjoying the machine more and with hindsight you can just give a "knee jerk" reaction when you first start to use it as you haven't had the time to get to know it fully 😊


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

This is the post I saw regarding automating powering on the 58 https://m.facebook.com/groups/brewwithflair/permalink/853254238873956/


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

newdent said:


> This is the post I saw regarding automating powering on the 58 https://m.facebook.com/groups/brewwithflair/permalink/853254238873956/


 Seriously?🤣 All you need to do is engage your brain, use your first digit to turn machine on and it's ready within 5 minutes (Sorry I'm just old fashioned!). Can it to boil a kettle, grind coffee, prep basket and pull the lever as well? 🙄


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I never said anything about smart plug 😊👍. All I was curious is whether one can simply turn the machine on/off on the wall, @Irisco explained, thank you - or does one also have to remove the specific sockets in that order every time. If it can be switched off on the wall first, or unplug from the wall first, I don't understand why order is important when taking it apart, that's all.


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I never said anything about smart plug 😊👍. All I was curious is whether one can simply turn the machine on/off on the wall, @Irisco explained, thank you - or does one also have to remove the specific sockets in that order every time. If it can be switched off on the wall first, or unplug from the wall first, I don't understand why order is important when taking it apart, that's all.





MediumRoastSteam said:


> I never said anything about smart plug 😊👍. All I was curious is whether one can simply turn the machine on/off on the wall, @Irisco explained, thank you - or does one also have to remove the specific sockets in that order every time. If it can be switched off on the wall first, or unplug from the wall first, I don't understand why order is important when taking it apart, that's all.


 I'm with you on that one. If you switch it off at the wall then like you say it shouldn't matter about disassembling in a certain order.

I would think the advice is for people taking it apart whilst it's still plugged in and turned on but why you would choose to mess around with something when there are "live" electrics I have no idea 🤷‍♀️( once put together initially I can't think of many / if any reasons you would want to disassemble it anyway).


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

The Flair is my kind of machine, but I realised when watching it that I couldn't swap the Robot for the Flair because I wouldn't be able to fill the Flair direct from the Osmio, so it all becomes more fiddly. Anyway, I love my Robot, so the moment of GAS has passed!


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