# Orchestrale nota HX or Double boiler Profitic 700



## goteeam (Dec 20, 2016)

Dears,

I hope this post finds you great.

I'm having a discussion with a friend who want to buy Orchestrale nota which is HX i was trying to convince him that Double boiler is better because the stability and double boiler with two PIDs, So I'm comparing nota with Profitic 700 and AND Synchronika.

His argument is that Nota is the best end of HX machine and Profitic 700 and Synchronika is the start of Double boiler machines. So what do you think ?

Regards.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

You are both right. The Nota uses a thermosyphon so does not need a cooling flush. Having owned one it is a top end machine. I have had a Pro 700 as well and in my view I know which is better!


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

@goteeam the synchronika and the pro700 are not at the start of db machines, they top end.... certainly for e61 anyway.

@dfk41 - of course it was the pro700?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

kennyboy993 said:


> @goteeam the synchronika and the pro700 are not at the start of db machines, they top end.... certainly for e61 anyway.
> 
> @dfk41 - of course it was the pro700?


Yep, it was.....functional but boring. absolutely no character, boring. when you spend 2k oma machine, unless you have experience of other high end kit, then you have little or no choice but to think it is the bees knees. I have had all sorts and whilst it is only my view, I do not think highly of the 700, and I do of the Nota


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> You are both right. The Nota uses a thermosyphon so does not need a cooling flush. Having owned one it is a top end machine. I have had a Pro 700 as well and in my view I know which is better!


A thermosiphon in and of itself does not eliminate the cooling flush, although the particular design on the Nota may well do, as you have observed.

I think it's a worthwhile distinction, as most HX machines have a TS loop, but most still need a flush.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dylan said:


> A thermosiphon in and of itself does not eliminate the cooling flush, although the particular design on the Nota may well do, as you have observed.
> 
> I think it's a worthwhile distinction, as most HX machines have a TS loop, but most still need a flush.


Dylan, am quite prepared to be proved wrong, but my understanding is that the nature of a normal HX is that it does not have a loop system. The water sits in the pipes between the boiler and the group and in effect, heats up requiring a cooling flush to be performed. Compare this to a TS, then the water goes via pipes, from the boiler to the group then back to the boiler in a continuous cycle. Sometimes as happens on the L1, the TS stalls requiring a short flush to kick start it again, but in essence, the water in the group should normally be at the right temp. I always pull a short amount of water through before a shot whether using a TS or a DB. I agree that some HX machines have a TS loop but I would say they are not in the majority


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Afaik All e61 hx have thermosyphon loop though not all have thermosyphon restrictors.

Some are designed not to have them eg ECM as these are temp regulated by specially designed hx lengths.

I can't see how any hx wouldn't need a cooling flush - it's essentially designed to heat water on demand, not water that's been sat in the hx for a while.

If the water in the boiler has to be hot enough to heat the water in the hx as it passes through - how can it not be too hot when surrounded by that super hot water for a period of time.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

After this came up in a previous thread I think it was all talked through, and the HX design right from inception has a thermosyphon loop - this is how the group head heats up by passing hot water through it via the cooling/heating process. This effect is less pronounced once the whole loop is 90c+. Management of the group temp is achieved via a 'restrictor' or 'gicleur' which is just a pin hole washer in the TS loop. The actual design of the loop itself can also contribute to the managed temperature; a larger loop or one that spends more time away from the HX pipe will cool the water more but be less effective for continuous cafe use.

Unless I have seriously misunderstood how a HX works (and I have taken a few apart, so I hope I haven't!) I dont think the regular operation of a HX can be described as much else apart from a 'thermosyphon loop'.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

HA! Proved wrong again!


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> HA! Proved wrong again!


Don't worry at least you don't support Sunderland


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Jony said:


> Don't worry at least you don't support Sunderland


Very true! But, it does not explain why I never had to pull cooling flushes when I had mine!


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Very true! But, it does not explain why I never had to pull cooling flushes when I had mine!


There are a few manufacturers (Like Fracino) who claim this, and user experience to back it up.

Some machines (in fact, most machines - especially when looking into the past) are designed for the small cafe environment in which coffees are pulled all day with not much break in between each one, this needs and open 'fast flowing' (comparatively) TS loop to keep the group up to temp.

When in a home environment you want to prevent the overheated water from passing through the group too regularly, the flow restrictor helps in this regard (but doesn't solve the problem, as I found out with my VBM - and they too claim with this restrictor 'no flush is needed' *not true for my VBM*) what can also help is the design of the pipes themselves, if they are thinner or longer or something like this it will all aid in cooling the overheated water. In addition to all this other things like the thermal mass of the group head and other parts will contribute to heat loss/gain.

TL/DR - the Nota likely just has a well designed thermosyphon and group - which is better at managing temperature than other machines, although it should be said without measuring the temperatures in the group properly after a long rest and after a few uses it would be hard to say if your observations mean it sits at a 'perfect' temp all day or if when rested the extraction happens at 99degrees (still no obvious spitting water) and then when used a few times settles at a more reasonable 94-95.


----------



## goteeam (Dec 20, 2016)

Hello









Great information but think we diverted form the original need behind this subject as of now still I didn't get the desiccation to clarify which is best


----------



## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

goteeam said:


> Hello
> 
> 
> 
> ...


DB is not necessarily better, it just depends on how it's used, and how frequently used.

The discussion with your friend sounded like from a pricing standpoint. Just as a 2-group machine is usually inevitably more expensive than a single group machine, the same can be said about number of boilers too. Which is better? Totally depends on the person.

Your friend saying that the pro 700 and synchronica not being at the high end can be arguable. Yes, there are some super high end machines out there that are no-expenses-spared ultimate pinnacles of espresso machines. They tend to be dual boiler machines, because they can afford to be so. It's it justifiable? Again, that depends on what you require from your machine.

This is a relatively recent trend (in terms of espresso machine history) for makers to go DB. Hence less saturation of DB machines in line ups and the market compared to the traditional hx machines.

Unless you are a seriously seasoned operator of HX machines, DB can be more user friendly when it comes to temperature control of the brew water. Less guesswork. Rather than surf to bring down to your desired temp (not all beans require same brew temp) in DB you just set the pid and let it do its thing (although it's not instantaneous)

Here's why I chose DB..

I chose a DB machine because that temp control was a feature I desired. I drink both super light and super dark roasts. Wanted that accurate temp variability. Also another reason was so that I could switch off the steam boiler when not needed (for me, 90% of the time). I rarely use the steamer, so it Saves energy, and subsequently less need to empty the boiler periodically. Also I'm not a seasoned operator accustomed with hx flushing. If you're not plumbed in, I'd hate to think how often you'd need to refill the water tank or empty the drip tray because of the flushing required..(most DB machines come ready to be plumbed in)

So if your friend is anything like me, he should go DB. If he shares hardly any traits or above requirements like me, then hx or db should be fine.

Is a 4-door car better than a 2-door car? That kinda thing..


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

goteeam said:


> Hello
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All things considered it's going to be hard to choose a prosumer hx over a db.

As is mentioned on here - both are great machines. But the profitec and synchronika will give you more control over brew temp and remove the potential paranoia of flushing a hx down to correct temp.

I'd choose the synchronika over the pro700 as I love ecm


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

all of this conjecture, depends on the owners skills and capabilities and ultimately palate. You can drop them temp one degree.....some will taste the difference, some will not......remember, you might own a Porsche, but it does not make you a racing driver......


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Personally I would take dual boiler, especially a PID controlled one. When you are dialling in or trying to fault find if things aren't going right knowing that the temp is or isn't the problem is a good thing to have. In addition you are able to easily control the extraction temp to your preference.

I might however not have the above preference if I had tried a machine like the Nota, if I found it as reliable and stable as dfk did (and he isn't the only one saying good things about it) then maybe I would have found that zen of simply not worrying about what the machine is doing and just making the damn espresso.

So basically I'm not sure where my bias is coming from, but at the moment it favours knowing whats going on in the process in terms of temperature, and that favours the DB PID.


----------

