# Please Explain Triples to a Thicko



## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

I had assumed that triples would take long to extract. More coffee with same diameter of puck, therefore a longer column of coffee to push more water through seemed to be self evident that this would take longer to extract a triple than a double for instance.

However when I asked about triples when we down for the forum day at Rave I was told by someone quite experienced (forgotten who though)that the triple should be extracting in the same 25-30 sec target range.

I just oust can't wrap my head around that as it doesn't seem to make sense given my understanding of the physics involved. Could someone explain this to me?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

My first guess - it would take longer if you didn't adjust the grind. Maybe with more coffee you'd adjust the grind a bit coarser to let it run a little quicker otherwise you might arrive in an undesirable territory. My personal advice would be, don't worry about the time as such try it many ways and see what you prefer.

p.s. I use an 18g VST so no real direct experience of it.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The deeper the puck, the faster the flow needs to be through it to achieve a consistent extraction, at a given brew ratio.

Aim for a consistent brew ratio, rather than a specific time, as time might vary by over +/-2.5sec and still produce a good shot.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> The deeper the puck, the faster the flow needs to be through it to achieve a consistent extraction, at a given brew ratio.
> 
> Aim for a consistent brew ratio, rather than a specific time, as time might vary by over +/-2.5sec and still produce a good shot.


This ^


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Also the sides slant inwards towards the bottom of a single basket quite dramatically and there are less holes for the coffee to escape from.

With a double basket the sides are still slanted but not as much so in comparison allowing for more holes in the bottom than that of a single basket.

With a triple basket the sides are sheer and there are more holes again in the bottom because of the bigger surface area.

Or am i imagining this ^

More holes = quicker pour times surely


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Whilst some of us are being educated on the subject of triple baskets (22g), in which situations are folk using them? Bucket size lattes/cappuccinos?


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> Also the sides slant inwards towards the bottom of a single basket quite dramatically and there are less holes for the coffee to escape from.
> 
> With a double basket the sides are still slanted but not as much so in comparison allowing for more holes in the bottom than that of a single basket.
> 
> ...


Photo to back up my claim


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Used to use the triple on the classic for a while, mrs froggy didn't like it and said it was to strong, i found it just right.

Dont think i have one now for the rocket, but dont really miss it now i have got my head round what i am doing.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> More holes = quicker pour times surely


Yes, but the increased dose also presents more resistance to the water, as well as the basket, so the idea is that one cancels out the other and pour times remain relatively consistent.


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

MWJB said:


> Yes, but the increased dose also presents more resistance to the water, as well as the basket, so the idea is that one cancels out the other and pour times remain relatively consistent.


Yes, thats the point i was trying to make, which is why a triple should pour the same time as a single or a double, , the extra holes cancel out the extra grinds.


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> Photo to back up my claim
> 
> View attachment 16149
> 
> ...


Those baskets are just plain weird. Get some VSTs!

All VSTs (15g 18g, 22g) have straight sides...


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

MWJB said:


> Yes, but the increased dose also presents more resistance to the water, as well as the basket, so the idea is that one cancels out the other and pour times remain relatively consistent.


Baffling at first but also makes sense.

Thanks @MWJB, where would a lot of us be without your help?! ?


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Bottom two look like stock pressurised ones, no?


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

DoubleShot said:


> Bottom two look like stock pressurised ones, no?


Not to me they dont. I did have an un pressurised single and it looked just like that, I now only have an un pressurised double, looks just like the double in the photo as well.

The photos come from this search and were for illustrating my point. I do not own those baskets

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=single+double+and+triple+baskets&biw=1525&bih=720&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0CKkBEPwFKAFqFQoTCMixvp3et8cCFYm4GgodkkcDRA&dpr=0.9#imgrc=tn5dGs5Osd-V9M%3A

this link shows it exactly the point I was trying to make

http://www.home-barista.com/tips/is-there-secret-behind-basket-t11289.html


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> Photo to back up my claim
> 
> View attachment 16149
> 
> ...


They are not for making coffee with ..

they are from a waffle iron arent they


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

DoubleShot said:


> Baffling at first but also makes sense.
> 
> Thanks @MWJB, where would a lot of us be without your help?!


Perhaps it's easier to grasp when you look at the dose v output too...

If we have a 7g dose & 14g output in 30s = 0.47g/sec.

14g dose & 28g output, 30s = 0.93g/sec.

21g dose & 42g output, 30s = 1.4g/sec.

So if we tried to pull a 21:42g shot at 0.47g/sec flow rate we end up with a shot time of 1.5mins...probably so fine as to cause problems. Conversely a 7:14g shot at 1.4g/sec would mean a 10sec shot & that's going to be underextracted. (Not suggesting these parameters as specific targets, I don't hold much store by flow rate by itself, examples are just by way of illustration).


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## Taff (May 5, 2015)

Does a triple really exist?! Really it's just a large dose in the 20-22g range, a basket specifically for this size (VST) will have the holes sized to extract that weight of coffee optimally.

As with any other size dose, (at the brew ratio suited to the bean or drink you're making) time is the final variable affecting how it tastes and great shots could be anywhere between 20 and 90 seconds I'd say?! My new bible on this sorta subject, courtesy of (groan) Mr. Perger:

http://www.baristahustle.com/espresso-recipes-putting-it-all-together/


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> They are not for making coffee with ..
> 
> they are from a waffle iron arent they


That was my first thought! How does the ground coffee not just fall out through the holes?


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## Rompie (Apr 18, 2015)

DoubleShot said:


> Whilst some of us are being educated on the subject of triple baskets (22g), in which situations are folk using them? Bucket size lattes/cappuccinos?


Worked for a while at a train station coffee kiosk and they insisted on using triples for large (bucket) sized drinks. I found it was really difficult to get the extraction to come out evenly - it would start very very slow and then sort of trickle for the last 10 secs. I ended up just using double/ single in the end. The segafredo extra strong beans they were using were awful anyway.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

Well that has certainly cleared that up


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Taff said:


> Does a triple really exist?! Really it's just a large dose in the 20-22g range,


I always thought 7 grams was the accepted stock amount for a single basket which leads to multiples of that weight, 14 grams for a double therefor logic suggests that 21 grams would be a triple.

I say a triple does exist


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> I always thought 7 grams was the accepted stock amount for a single basket which leads to multiples of that weight, 14 grams for a double therefor logic suggests that 21 grams would be a triple.
> 
> I say a triple does exist


I've got a single, a double and a triple with the Gaggia. Also the double I have with the La Pavoni I use at 16g, sometimes at 15g but no more as 16g is all it holds.


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## paul whu (Sep 25, 2014)

I bought a LM 21g basket to use in the double spouted portafilter a while ago. My thinking was that I could make 2 smaller drinks (10.5g instead of approx 17g) at a time. This way I could have more coffee moments per day without raising my caffeine levels. Pointless waste of money for me though as the basket is too deep for my E61 portafilters and can only be used with the naked.

My understanding was to adjust the grind to the appropriate size to maintain the 30 second (ish) shot for a 2:1 (ish) ratio. The theory being that the important factor in under/over extracting was dictated by the time the grounds are in contact with the water effecting the flavours you extract.

On saying that I've never actually used mine!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I Use dose to make more or less drink .. Don't stress over exact time . Work to a brew ratio as you suggest . If there is taste imbalance decide what you want to adjust .

Again this explains it better than I can

http://www.baristahustle.com/espresso-recipes-analyzing-dose/


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