# My Gaggia Classic Attempts at Espresso



## kikapu

Well I managed to set up my Gaggia Classic and Iberatial mc2 last night (both second hand).

Used the sticky on these forums as so choc with info.

Primed unit, then did a back flush to make sure it was clean (it was). Tested out steam and then forgot to close valve and wondered for a good few minutes why steam was still coming out when I was trying to get water out the brew head!!

As the grinder was secondhand it was in the right sort of area for espresso grind so didn't have to waste a load of beans to get it close.

Unfortunately I only had beans from hasbean at home for brewed coffee (ordered Rave coffees Jampit yesterday) and it was a 'washed bourbon' which I seemed to recall reading somewhere was not at all good for espresso!!?? But was all I had so gave it a try anyway.

I pulled my first shot and used the YouTube video in the sticky as a basis for my routine.





 which includes the temp surfing bit ie put water through brewhead temp light goes out then attach PF then brew as soon as light comes back on.

The shot took about 20 seconds for the 60ml so a bit fast. However to my expert eye







it had a good crema and colour however it tasted so bitter!! I couldn't drink it!









Tried again this morning after having adjusted the grind slightly (finer) the pour took just over 20 seconds this time but the taste again was too bitter.

Do you think this is just likely to be cause of the type of beans used? Or am I likely missing something.

Hopefully jampit arrives today and means I can have a bit more of a play at the weekend


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## Daren

How long had your machine been switched on?


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## c_squared

60ml output is quite a lot and this could be one reason why it was bitter. Most people will aim for a much lower output and try and get 1.6 times the input. The easiest way to achieve this is to weigh the coffee going in and weigh what comes out. This is just guidance but I've found it really helpful. So, if you are putting 18g of coffee in, you want to get about 28g of coffee out in about 27 seconds. This might seem like a very small amount if coffee but just give it a go and see if it's to your taste.

Are you taking your espresso as espresso or adding steamed milk?


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## coffeechap

Dial the mc2 much finer, the adjustments are very small so it will feel like you are going a long way but you are not, that shirt should take 27 seconds and be 2/3 that volume, remember weighed output will never be the same as volume output, so around 27 g will probably only be 45 ml max


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## kikapu

The machine had been on both times for at least 20mins as read the issues that even if it says its read after 5mins its not.

60ml I thought this was the standard double espresso amount? I am currently using a 15g VST although think I had more like 17g in the PF.

Taking it as espresso


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## xiuxiuejar

OK - with the Classic, some things are really important. You MUST let the machine warm up properly (at least 15 minutes) and then you SHOULD flush the machine (draw a cup of water) before the shot. This way you will get close to the correct temperature for espresso. Grind finer, it doesn't matter if you choke your machine at first because it's always easier working up than working back. Work on your tamp and routine/technique and it'll soon become easy.

People will talk about grams and time and this is correct but get to the ballpark first before weighing etc. Just weigh 28g of water to see more or less how much liquid it is. Once you get to the ball park you can start getting obsessive but get your tamp and technique right first. I have to admit, I do all the weights and measures by eye as I'm too lazy to weigh but when day when I was bored, I got my scales out and I did find that what I do by eye was exceptionally close to what people recommend (16-18 grams coffee in - 27 seconds - 28 grams coffee out). But this is not bible, everyone has their tastes and preferences.

PS- Hasbean will usually produce lighter, acidic espresso because of the way they roast. I'm not saying it's good or bad. What you will get from their roasts usually is a lot of fruit.


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## xiuxiuejar

60 ml is a lot of coffee. Tastes are very different but I'd say as a max, look at 40ml and if you like a fuller flavour, even less. I think this 30 for a single and 60 for a double is a Starbucks invention! The shot glasses I have hold about 38ml up to the line (just weighed one to give you an idea). I never fill them up though but as I say, each to their own!


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## c_squared

I knew people would answer better than me and just incase I forgot before. The taste of the coffee really is the most important bit rather than the weights etc. it's only guidance and you will find the routine etc that works for you. I have a gaggia classic as well, the advice on flushing is a good one. It's really easy to temperature surf with the classic.


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## kikapu

This is all really great info and yes the most important thing is the taste!

If we are talking volume of 40ml does that include the crema too?

Will adjust finer tonight maybe tamp harder!! Although heard people say that the tamp isnt that important as long as its consistent I guess


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## xiuxiuejar

The tamp is really important but not as important as the grind. Your tamp should be firm but not too hard. So use your arm to push down but don't put all your body weight on it. Someone will offer the tamp in lbs but as I said before, I am not so obsessive. The tamp has to leave the coffee in the puck straight and even. If your tamp is consistant, then your most important parameter in the pour will always be the fineness of the grind and you can adjust accordingly.

As for the 40ml - I said that due to the measured shot glasses but yes I suppose that should include crema. But as I say, just concentrate in getting an acceptable extraction first before weighing and measuring and once you're in the right area, small adjustments (in tamp / fineness) will make a huge difference in the end product. The most important thing in this whole process is you and whether you like the shot or not. I can tell you I pour circa 30ml usually but if you don't like it like that, then you have to pull more.

Also I can also tell you that according to experts, 27 seconds is optimum but I have often ground finer and pulled longer (until I get coat tails in the crema - ie; it gets lighter) and the extractions have been great especially with the bolder coffees! I think once you start to get your technique and understand what you are doing, you can actually have a bit of fun with it and see the difference in shots and extractions.


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## kikapu

having bit more of a read and I wonder if I might actually be too fine a grind as looking at pictures my grind seems to best resemble a powder/flour!!? Although this wouldn't explain the amount of coffee I am getting out but would explain the bitterness? Maybe I am just being too limp wristed with my tamping?

So many questions!! really need a good few hours messing about with it I think although thats not too likely at the moment!!


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## urbanbumpkin

All of the above is great advice.

My 2p is If you have scales weight the dose going in and the weight of the shot. Output should be approx 1.6 times the weight in.

This should get you in the right ball park.


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## chimpsinties

You'd be better having a finer grind and tamping less anyway so unless you're literally resting the tamper on the coffee and nothing else I wouldn't worry about your tamp pressure being too light.

Maybe a photo of your grind or a video of your technique would help everyone see if you're doing something obviously wrong.


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## Milanski

It is poss that your machine's thermostat is a bit off. Mine is on my Classic. After I do my flush, light off, then on and brew, the temp is at 166f NOT around the 200 mark (I can only measure in fahrenheit), so I have to heat the water up before pulling my shot.

I would recommend the polystyrene cup and food thermometer technique to know for sure that your brew temp is in the right ball park.


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## chimpsinties

That would be this one?










There is a story that goes with this to explain what each picture was referring to but I'll have to dig it out

Thread: http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?6049-Get-your-thermometers-out-we-re-doing-some-tests-on-the-Classic


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## Milanski

I like analogue gear!









Mine is digital so slightly more compact, but yes, that's the kiddie.

So what's the story here? Is this your setup?

I never thought to put the cup inside the bottomless PF. Nice touch.


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## kikapu

A little update;

Managed to make two cups this morning after adjusting my grinder to finer and using my Rave coffee beans.

I paid more attention to how I filled the PF, but to be honest I know both times it wasnt that great.

Tamped it down trying to get it level. With some success.

The first shot did about 12 grams of coffee from 15g in 30 seconds!

Adjusted the grind coarser a fraction then got about 29g coffee from the 15g in 30 seconds (no idea why i didnt stop at 27 seconds) This shot tasted ok certainly better than most I have had on the high street but if I had stopped it that few seconds earlier would have probably stopped in the right range and tasted that bit better. I did dilute it down with some hot water to make an americano and it tasted lovely if a bit too diluted.

Hopefully try it again this afternoon and just stop it that few seconds earlier and be able to taste the difference.

Couple of questions my tamper is 58mm is this the right size for a 15g VST basket? Or shall I get bigger?

To make the americano I tried to use the steam wand without heating up to steam as thought I had read this was the way to best get hot water? In the end just used hot water in kettle! Any advice on how best to get the hot water out? I guess just fill cuo from brew head before pulling shot? How much hot water do you mix?

Feel much happier today as know I am in right ballpark now but know I need a lot more work!!


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## GS11

You may get better flavour from your rave beans once they have rested for 10 days or so from roasting date....this allows them to time to de-gass.

Tamper = 58.4mm for vst

Personally I would boil the kettle rather than try using the classic for hot water

Keep up the good work you will learn lots about espresso making from the classic


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## chimpsinties

Milanski said:


> So what's the story here? Is this your setup?
> 
> I never thought to put the cup inside the bottomless PF. Nice touch.


If you read the thread I linked to it's all in there. I was experimenting with temp surfing on the Classic trying to get the best technique for proper brew temp.


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## kikapu

Right!! The last few have been bad!

I adjusted grind finer and the last twice attempts almost totally stalled so have adjusted back course to almost where it was yesterday but yet to try!

I have sussed the main problem! Its me!

Or more importantly the way I fill the pf and tamp it!

I have been using a paper clip to get rid of clumps in the grind in a cup then tipping into pf leveling with tamper. The last two attemps though I poured into the pf then when full swirled the paperclip in the pf to ensure no clumps then tamped with relatively low force however I guess the puck was better consistency than my usual and thus stopped the water!!

Anyway any tips on how to fill the pf consistantly and ensure no clumps would be appreciated.


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## Glenn

Dosing and distribution are 2 important elements

If not done correctly then the puck will have flaws when tamped

Are you able to grind directly into the Portafilter?


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## kikapu

Yeah I could do that but until now hadn't got the grinder to dose the right as mount. Its in the right ballpark now so I could do that if that's better?


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## Glenn

One thing you could do, is remove the basket and grind into that, weighing the amount going in, then putting the basket into the portafilter and tamping

You need to ensure that you are not tapping the basket or compacting the grounds before tamping though (as you are handling more than normal)

This will help ensure consistency of 1 variable - dose weight


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## kikapu

Glenn said:


> Are you able to grind directly into the Portafilter?


Have tried this and apart from making a mess!! This looks like the best way I may be able to keep the puck consistent!

Still yet to dial in the grinder or make sure my tamping pressure is consistent but seems like I am getting closer!? (think it was approx 15g coffee in, 29 coffee out) and was at least able to turn my last shot into an Americano that I would have been very happy to get in any cafe!


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## Mrboots2u

Hurrah good news in the Americano. When getting used to the grinder, try and stick to one bean, same dose and get a repeatable tamp technique to get to an espresso you like.


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## kikapu

Thanks

Yeah I realise now should have bought a bigger bag!! I am going to have to put in another order to Rave I think!

Have reduce the pressure I was doing during tamping as I think a lighter pressure seems more repeatable it just getting the time to practice


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## MiG

To chip in my 2 cents, here is how I got my best shots:



Use a set of scales - I used a set of scales to measure the coffee for every single shot I did. That was until I got used to the grinder and dispensing the coffee in the basket (At which point I used the scales for calibration.). To measure the coffee, I would grind directly in the basket and would then weigh that (I already knew how much the basket weighed).


Pay attention to distribution - After weighing out the coffee, I used a piece of thin plastic wire to stir the grounds so that they would be evenly distributed and any clumps would be broken up. You might want to fit the upper part of a plastic cup into the filter before grinding (cut the cup in 2 parts, a bit above the middle. Throw out the bottom bit). That way, you are not going to make a mess when stirring the coffee.







Basically, here is what I am talking about: http://www.home-barista.com/weiss-distribution-technique-steps.html I couldn't make any of the other distribution techniques produce as good of a result as this method (but then again, some of the other methods take quite a bit of practice to master).


Tamp - I tried to apply even pressure on all parts of the tamper, pushing straight down. There are a number of videos and articles on tamping technique on the net. First tamp was the one where I applied the most force, then gently knock the basket on the side a few times to knock out any grounds stuck to the sides (some people say not to do that and others say that it's OK, I did it). Then very light tamp and polish.


Extraction - Look at the flow - Used a timer and aimed for about 26 sec (again, opinions on this vary). As I got used to the extraction process etc. I started looking at the actual flow of the shot as well (was it flowing in a nice straight line or was it all over the place, was it going blonde, was there nice dark striping, delay between machine was switched on and first drops appeared, etc., etc.). I would use both the timer and how the shot looked to either cut it off at a certain point or leave it running a bit longer. I also tried experimenting with shot timing vs. weight vs. volume, but could never get good results doing it that way.


To dial in the correct grind and to get used to the adjustments that you need to make, takes a bit of time (and lots of beans!







) Initially, I experimented with large changes in the grinder setting, in order to get a feel for things (This method is suggested in a number of articles). Then, I progressively made the changes finer and finer. Something to keep in mind is that you'll probably have to adjust the grind coarseness as the coffee ages. Same with tamping and extraction, it took quite a bit of experimenting. Some times I'd cut shots short or leave them running long on purpose, just to see what they'd taste like. Then I'd do the same shot but in a more normal way and would compare it to the first one (while trying to keep variables such as grinidng, distribution, tamping, etc. the same).

As you'll find, making an excellent espresso is an art form! Espresso has many complex, but fragile, flavours (which I don't claim to be able to discern, although I try hard







), and there are a lot of variables at play. In the search of your perfect espresso, the goal is to try to only change one variable at a time, while keeping all of the other ones constant. Although, I ended up making some great shots, I could never achieve would I would consider real consistency (I'd make 5 awesome shots, followed by an average one, or even a bad one).

Anyway, I hope some of this is useful. Good luck!


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## coffeechap

Nice that you took the time for this, very valuable for new people..


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## kikapu

MiG said:


> To chip in my 2 cents, here is how I got my best shots:
> 
> 
> 
> Use a set of scales - I used a set of scales to measure the coffee for every single shot I did. That was until I got used to the grinder and dispensing the coffee in the basket (At which point I used the scales for calibration.). To measure the coffee, I would grind directly in the basket and would then weigh that (I already knew how much the basket weighed).
> 
> 
> Pay attention to distribution - After weighing out the coffee, I used a piece of thin plastic wire to stir the grounds so that they would be evenly distributed and any clumps would be broken up. You might want to fit the upper part of a plastic cup into the filter before grinding (cut the cup in 2 parts, a bit above the middle. Throw out the bottom bit). That way, you are not going to make a mess when stirring the coffee.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Basically, here is what I am talking about: http://www.home-barista.com/weiss-distribution-technique-steps.html I couldn't make any of the other distribution techniques produce as good of a result as this method (but then again, some of the other methods take quite a bit of practice to master).
> 
> 
> Tamp - I tried to apply even pressure on all parts of the tamper, pushing straight down. There are a number of videos and articles on tamping technique on the net. First tamp was the one where I applied the most force, then gently knock the basket on the side a few times to knock out any grounds stuck to the sides (some people say not to do that and others say that it's OK, I did it). Then very light tamp and polish.
> 
> 
> Extraction - Look at the flow - Used a timer and aimed for about 26 sec (again, opinions on this vary). As I got used to the extraction process etc. I started looking at the actual flow of the shot as well (was it flowing in a nice straight line or was it all over the place, was it going blonde, was there nice dark striping, delay between machine was switched on and first drops appeared, etc., etc.). I would use both the timer and how the shot looked to either cut it off at a certain point or leave it running a bit longer. I also tried experimenting with shot timing vs. weight vs. volume, but could never get good results doing it that way.
> 
> 
> To dial in the correct grind and to get used to the adjustments that you need to make, takes a bit of time (and lots of beans!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) Initially, I experimented with large changes in the grinder setting, in order to get a feel for things (This method is suggested in a number of articles). Then, I progressively made the changes finer and finer. Something to keep in mind is that you'll probably have to adjust the grind coarseness as the coffee ages. Same with tamping and extraction, it took quite a bit of experimenting. Some times I'd cut shots short or leave them running long on purpose, just to see what they'd taste like. Then I'd do the same shot but in a more normal way and would compare it to the first one (while trying to keep variables such as grinidng, distribution, tamping, etc. the same).
> 
> As you'll find, making an excellent espresso is an art form! Espresso has many complex, but fragile, flavours (which I don't claim to be able to discern, although I try hard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), and there are a lot of variables at play. In the search of your perfect espresso, the goal is to try to only change one variable at a time, while keeping all of the other ones constant. Although, I ended up making some great shots, I could never achieve would I would consider real consistency (I'd make 5 awesome shots, followed by an average one, or even a bad one).
> 
> Anyway, I hope some of this is useful. Good luck!


Thanks for the tips really helpfully. I had done the stirring of the grinds in the portafilter with a paperclip but when I read about not tapping the the filter assumed this wasnt a good idea!! I think for me this will in the long run be better and make it more repeatable for me.

The main issue I have apart from not tamping very well/consistently and Not having dialed in my grinder! Is not having having the time to practice! Pulling one or two shots in a row is the most I have managed and makes the progress slow! At this point dont know if I will even pull another before the weekend!

As I have found for many things its good to read up and be informed (which I think I am getting there on) but the only way you really understand it and find what works for you is by practicing/doing!!

The first few shots I pulled everything was so slow, grinding, filling the filter, prepping the machine etc etc But already through the little practice I have had my shots arent great but the thinking process isnt so labored and I am just starting to know whats next in the process without having to think about it too much!! Hopefully some good tasting shots will follow!!


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## Milanski

I spent a couple of hours with my cup and thermometer about three weeks ago doing various sized hot water pulls coupled with various lengths of steam switch heating up (realise now i should have documented it with pics). What I found to be most consistent with my machine was to pull 10-15secs of hot water through (stopping short if the light goes off), waiting for the light to go off (usually only 2-5secs after that much water was pulled), inserting the PF and then when the light comes back on pressing the steam switch for 25 seconds - taking it past the ideal temp and switch steam switch off. I then open the steam valve on the side for 5 seconds, engage the brew switch and turn off the steam valve and pull my shot til onset of blonding.

For my machine, this seems to be really pretty consistent. I consistently get lovely pulls with a mottled crema whereas before just doing the 'standard classic flush' gave me sour shots and a one-coloured beige crema.


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## Milanski

...sorry meant to add that I was a bit slow to reply to Chimpsinties reply from 3 days ago. The above is my finding with my Classic.


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## chimpsinties

I hope you were standing on one leg while doing this and throwing salt over your left shoulder at the same time. Haha









Sounds a bit complicated to me but whatever gets the best shots for you.

About tamping. The thing you've got to try and avoid is fracturing the puck. Anything you do after the initial tamp is going to risk it such as tapping basket, 2nd "light" tamp and polish etc. There's just no point. Get it right first time and the most you might have to do is tip a couple of loose grinds off the top of the puck or blow them off before putting the PF in the machine.


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## Milanski

Haha, well figuratively speaking, perhaps I was...

The conclusion I came to was that if you force the machine into purging it's water then heating it up by the same amount every time you effectively take control of what it's doing thereby guaranteeing a predictible result every time. If you only purge a little you have no idea at what point in the cycle the heating is at so your results will vary.

....I may have a point but I've just thought of a counter argument! In order for the above to hold true I would have to purge ALL the water from the tank so I'm starting with a totally fresh tank of cold water, then heating it up to the desired temp (measured by the cup/thermometer technique) and then pulling a shot...oh dear.

Well whatever, all I can say is that my technique does produce pretty consistent shots as proven by myself just now over three shots over three hours (at different time intervals and with the machine from cold (+20mins warmup) and while it has been on for over an hour...


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## MiG

I've found temp surfing to be a guessing game, at best (which is implied in the term itself...'surfing'). After letting the machine warm up, I've done the styrofoam cup temp test a bunch of times (no temp surfing) and came up with very consistent temperatures within the expected ranges. So in my mind, this showed that there is little need for temp surfing. The only reliable way to improve temp control, in my view, is through a PID (but I couldn't justify the investment vs. the returns, and the added endless experimentation







).

With the risk of provoking a barrage of "you are so wrong" type of comments, I'd even contend that letting the machine warm up for at least 20 min., in order to achieve temp stability, is not all that necessary either. The Classic has a pretty powerful boiler which will get the water up to temp pretty quickly. The only thing needed after that is for the other parts to warm up (e.g. tubing, group head, etc.), but you can do that by running some water through the machine. You can then let the water get up to temp again (which should happen pretty quickly, not enough time for the other parts to cool back down) and pull a shot. Again, this is just my view.


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## chimpsinties

Got to be honest I tend to let it warm up (on a timer from 7am) for about 20 mins but have been known to wait a lot less time. I literally flush enough to warm my tiny espresso cup (about 1 second if that) then I'm ready to go. I haven't seen the benefits from endless messing around and like you have been satisfied after brief experimentation that I'm happy with the results


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## Charliej

I'm also in the less sodding around whilst making my coffee too. My Classic is also on a timer, switches on around 7am and switches off around 9pm , the shots seem to stay pretty consistent throughout the day for me, although I guess my grinder does help with this.


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## Milanski

Maybe the thermostat on my machine is out then. I don't doubt that you guys pull great shots without too much muckin' around but I simply can't pull a good shot without. It's always sour and the crema light blonde in colour with no mottling. With my messin' about routine my shots taste well balanced and the crema is nicely flecked.

Whatever works right?

We can't really say that one way or another is the right way if our machines operate in different ways. I think this can often be the basis of disagreement.


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## chimpsinties

Well today (purely for science) I tried your method and it tasted about the same as my normal shot. Like you say, maybe its just the way you need to ride your machine to get it right. It was funny. Like being a beginner all over again trying to follow an unfamiliar routine. Haha

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk


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## urbanbumpkin

Charliej said:


> I'm also in the less sodding around whilst making my coffee too. My Classic is also on a timer, switches on around 7am and switches off around 9pm , the shots seem to stay pretty consistent throughout the day for me, although I guess my grinder does help with this.


I'm in the same approach as you Charlie in the less buggering around the better.

I do a simple pre flush from the brew head which in general is about 1oz -1.5oz (about a second after the steam goes), wait till light goes off then pull shot when the light goes on. This seems to work for me.

That said. I do find however hard I try to remove the faffing stages I seem to replace them with new ones.









With my next shot I'm tempted to try not stirring the grind (Mignon owner) and not doing the pre flush and seeing what happens.


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## Kyle548

Having a PID makes it so simple.

I just preheat a cup, fill my basket and then I'm ready to pull a shot.

Machine waiting for me at temp.


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## xiuxiuejar

I did say at the start of this thread, the classsic has its quirks. The best thing is just to develop a routine that works for you. i'm not one for measuring out anything myself but I know other people are. Each to his own.


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## urbanbumpkin

xiuxiuejar said:


> I did say at the start of this thread, the classsic has its quirks. The best thing is just to develop a routine that works for you. i'm not one for measuring out anything myself but I know other people are. Each to his own.


Very true. I think that's the great thing about coffee. It can be incredibly simple or complicated but ultimately it's whatever works for you.


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## Milanski

True dat.....


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## Charliej

urbanbumpkin said:


> With my next shot I'm tempted to try not stirring the grind (Mignon owner) and not doing the pre flush and seeing what happens.


I thought you had to dissolve oxo cubes not just stir them


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## hallph

All good info here, will make sure to send to a friend who has just bought one


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## Milanski

Happy to advise. Where does your friend live?


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## Milesy

Personally I don't find the temperature thing to be a massive issue with the classic in comparison to the other variables.

I haven't used mine in months as I have been going through a brewed period but started again recently and after dialling in my grind a bit everything is just as I left it.

1. In the MC2 I grind 25g which gives me roughly 22g as the grinder retains some and I drink my shots infrequently.

2. Put 22g in the warmed and dried portafilter with a 22g VST basket.

3. Depending on my mood I either distribute with a pin or sometimes by hitting PF off the worktop.

4. 1 single tamp with my VST matched tamper (knock). No twisting, no further tamps, no knocking at any point.

5. Pull shot.

As long as its heated up I dont flush or anything.

I don't tend to put much focus on the time of overall the shot either. I have had shots which choked for 15 seconds taste the same as ones which started straight away. I aim personally for about 30g out from my 22g before the pour blondes. And taste.

My 30 from 22 generally looks like.


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## kikapu

Milesy said:


> Personally I don't find the temperature thing to be a massive issue with the classic in comparison to the other variables.
> 
> I haven't used mine in months as I have been going through a brewed period but started again recently and after dialling in my grind a bit everything is just as I left it.
> 
> 1. In the MC2 I grind 25g which gives me roughly 22g as the grinder retains some and I drink my shots infrequently.
> 
> 2. Put 22g in the warmed and dried portafilter with a 22g VST basket.
> 
> 3. Depending on my mood I either distribute with a pin or sometimes by hitting PF off the worktop.
> 
> 4. 1 single tamp with my VST matched tamper (knock). No twisting, no further tamps, no knocking at any point.
> 
> 5. Pull shot.
> 
> As long as its heated up I dont flush or anything.
> 
> I don't tend to put much focus on the time of overall the shot either. I have had shots which choked for 15 seconds taste the same as ones which started straight away. I aim personally for about 30g out from my 22g before the pour blondes. And taste.
> 
> My 30 from 22 generally looks like.
> 
> View attachment 4038


That shot looks good to me!

Good point about temp. I think first I need to get my output somewhere near what I am aiming for first.

Struggling to get practice in as have to pre grind in the evening if I am gonna try a shot as the MC2 will wake the kids!

Hopefully this weekend will be more successful especially now I have my Torr tamper.


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## Milesy

Yeah the pre grind will not be much good. I have tried it and failed. I have ground some coffee in the morning and then been caught up with family stuff and tried to pull a shot with it in the afternoon and get a bad shot.

I personally find the boiler temp to be pretty stable (for me anyway). I only drink a few shots a day at home and only at the weekend so I don't waste coffee by doing a dump shot first either as it would be too much faff doing all the prep twice every time I want a drink.

My basket and tamper made a big difference to me I found as was stopping all the multiple tamps, knocking and twisting theatrics.

Look forward to hearing how you get on.


----------



## kikapu

Had a couple of attempts this morning. Had to adjust my grind after the first one poured way too quick, over adjusted the second so was way under made slightly courser and got the below shot









It was about about 22g in 27 seconds so a bit under. My wife thought it tasted a bit bitter, I thought sour!!









Does the shot & crema look right-ish! Looks much lighter than Milesys shot above!

The is best looking shot I have done so far, the crema when I started pulling my first shots looked very beige!!

The shot tasted the best so far but I think it was a bit bitter, might be due to temperature as didnt bother flushing before the shot,

Think I am making progress and have modified my shot routine and seems to make things more repeatable!

It now goes like this;

Grind in to portafilter, stir up grinds to break up clumps, tap pf on tamping mat to make sure no air pockets, level off with index finger (which makes it a bit convex like my new tamper!) tamp down holding it like a door knob so index and thumb touch side of PF and twist using thumb and index finger to feel if level.

Oh lastly I forgot to mention I used the beans that had been in the hopper for about two days (i know I know!!)) Dont know how much difference that would have made to the shot!


----------



## Mrboots2u

Ok , picture a little blurry so can't comment on the crema, I tend to go more by taste than get too uptight about cream depth etc

At 22 g dose perhaps it's going a little slow but I would go by taste as well as pure numbers and ration,as I don't know what taste profile you prefer.

Re taste if your input ,output is ok ,then the taste experience is more than likely to be due to temperature at extraction.

Re bitter and sour experiences, it can be a hard one for people to distinguish . There used to be at train of though that said bitter would taste more on the back of the tongue ,but research has shown this isn't really the case.

One way of training your tongue is to try something you know for sure will be bitter ,and sour in extremes. This could either be where you have deliberately pulled a shot under and over extracted or using something else ( lemon etc ). See how you experience the extreme and then try and take this experience back into tasting your normal espresso. Sometimes letting it cool a little can be more helpful in revealing where it lies on the taste scale ,as you are not thrown by the hotness .

Re beans ,there will be debate of how fresh beans in a hopper will stay , two days is more the I would keep them in, I will fill a hooper up once a day with 200 g and keep adding ,the more I drink (this is more to keep the grinder I use consistent tho ) . At two days I would suggest they have lost a little more of the freshness you would want,but again this will be dependant on how far they are from roast date to start with also .

Any help at all ?


----------



## kikapu

It was about 15g dose. I think crema was maybe two light a colour.

Thanks for the help if I manage to get a consistent output over the weekend will do more temp surfing.

Yeah I really do need to work on my taste buds might have to get some lemons!

Very helpful


----------



## kikapu

another blurry picture


----------



## Mrboots2u

My honest advice is to temp surf each time ( this will defo effect the taste re bitterness and sour ). So if your not doing it, it could mask how you feel the grind and dose are performing .

Build a routine ,as. It sound like you are doing,and include your temp surfing In this. Use the input output as a guide to altering the variables ( change one only at a time tho ,don't coarsen grind and lessen dose as an example ) . Yeah look at the crema , but I'd still say use your taste buds as the ultimate guide.


----------



## kikapu

Mrboots2u said:


> My honest advice is to temp surf each time ( this will defo effect the taste re bitterness and sour ). So if your not doing it, it could mask how you feel the grind and dose are performing .
> 
> Build a routine ,as. It sound like you are doing,and include your temp surfing In this. Use the input output as a guide to altering the variables ( change one only at a time tho ,don't coarsen grind and lessen dose as an example ) . Yeah look at the crema , but I'd still say use your taste buds as the ultimate guide.


I think that will be my main task with the weekends coffee! play with the temp and hopefully output will stay the same!! and just get the taste to change due to temp!


----------



## Milanski

I had a similar problem when I was learning to get the best out of my Classic. I found that pale, single-coloured crema meant that my temp was too cool. I confirmed that with the poly cup and food thermometer experiment. As a result I found that once I'd done my cooling flush (to get rid of steam) I then had to engage the steam switch to raise the temp of the water (for 25secs in my individual case). I then turned off the brew switch, let out excess pressure through the steam wand for a few secs pulled the shot and sfter 2-3secs closed the steam wand in effect giving me a few secs of 'poor- man's preinfusion'.

Sounds convoluted but for my machine it works and I get that mottled crema and a lovely balanced taste every time. No sourness, no bitterness. Just lahvely









I guess it's just a case of trying different things to see what gives the best results.


----------



## kikapu

Milanski said:


> I had a similar problem when I was learning to get the best out of my Classic. I found that pale, single-coloured crema meant that my temp was too cool. I confirmed that with the poly cup and food thermometer experiment. As a result I found that once I'd done my cooling flush (to get rid of steam) I then had to engage the steam switch to raise the temp of the water (for 25secs in my individual case). I then turned off the brew switch, let out excess pressure through the steam wand for a few secs pulled the shot and sfter 2-3secs closed the steam wand in effect giving me a few secs of 'poor- man's preinfusion'.
> 
> Sounds convoluted but for my machine it works and I get that mottled crema and a lovely balanced taste every time. No sourness, no bitterness. Just lahvely
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess it's just a case of trying different things to see what gives the best results.


Might give this a try thanks, hopefully make some progress this weekend.....if not I can feel upgraditus coming on! PID control!! Whats that you say PID control doesnt work that well on a Classic, Rancillo Silvia it is then!!


----------



## Mrboots2u

kikapu said:


> Might give this a try thanks, hopefully make some progress this weekend.....if not I can feel upgraditus coming on! PID control!! Whats that you say PID control doesnt work that well on a Classic, Rancillo Silvia it is then!!


Once you get into a good surfing routine , then you can make good espresso on a classic or a silvia without a pid .

Once you put a pid onto a silvia your I touching distance of secondhand HX machines, where the temp is more stable to start with.

Get a routine , you'll be fine ......


----------



## Milanski

I second that.

I love my Classic and can make great espressos on it now I know how to get the best results out of it. Silvia is also a great machine but bit of a step sideways if going from the Classic and as Mrboots said, for that price you can pretty much get a 2nd hand heat exchanger (HX) machine which is more temp stable anyway.


----------



## kikapu

Thanks guys.

Realise just need some more practice and seems to me that I have improved my results with very limited practice so hopeful this weekend will get me where I want to be! Or at least that little bit closer.

One question I have been meaning to ask is it ok to leave the portafilter in the machine when its not in use? I read somewhere that may damage the seals? I do put it in while warming the machine up but what about other times? Thanks for all the advice to date guys really has helped


----------



## Mrboots2u

kikapu said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> Realise just need some more practice and seems to me that I have improved my results with very limited practice so hopeful this weekend will get me where I want to be! Or at least that little bit closer.
> 
> One question I have been meaning to ask is it ok to leave the portafilter in the machine when its not in use? I read somewhere that may damage the seals? I do put it in while warming the machine up but what about other times? Thanks for all the advice to date guys really has helped


Personally I leave mine in all the time, loosely locked , ( my machine is on a timer ) , So when I come downstairs everything is warmed up and ready to go . Some people will argue that leaving it in all the time will erode the gasket seals, so mine might not be the right way to do it .

I do know that the portafilter should be up to temp to make coffee , how you achieve this is up to you







.


----------



## drude

I leave mine out during weekdays and then put it in at night so it's in when the timer warms it up first thing. At weekends it's in as the machine is usually on.


----------



## bazschmaz

Look what I pulled from my Gaggia... any feedback?

Apart from rotating the picture


----------



## Kyle548

bazschmaz said:


> View attachment 4366
> 
> 
> Look what I pulled from my Gaggia... any feedback?
> 
> Apart from rotating the picture


Looks good, what did you use?


----------



## Mrboots2u

Congratulations , more importantly how did it taste ?

Can't tell a lot from a pic with some coffee crema in it, especially from the side . Again what bean was it , as something with robusta will give you crema , what dose and how long did it take to pull?

Probably better to let us know how you felt it tasted . Great - sour- bitter - sweet- balanced...


----------



## bazschmaz

It was pure arabica, I ground 7g for a single basket serving and it pulled for 30 seconds.

It was slightly acidic, had a really heavy mouthfeel and the crema was sweet with a fudge like sweetness afterwards.


----------



## Kyle548

bazschmaz said:


> It was pure arabica, I ground 7g for a single basket serving and it pulled for 30 seconds.
> 
> It was slightly acidic, had a really heavy mouthfeel and the crema was sweet with a fudge like sweetness afterwards.


No idea about which origin it was, or the name of the blend or roaster?

Arabica means very little here, really.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

bazschmaz said:


> View attachment 4366
> 
> 
> Look what I pulled from my Gaggia... any feedback?
> 
> Apart from rotating the picture


Well done, looks good. As Boots said how it tastes is the main guide.

If you're not doing it already weighing dose in and weighing the shot afterwards is a really good way of getting in the right ballpark. I thought it was really anal but since doing it I was completely converted. Even if it's just to get the bean dialled in.

If it's too quite grind finer, too slow coarser.

Try and keep everything else the same.

Hope this helps.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Sorry should gave said the shot should weigh approx 1.6 times the dose.

e.g. 16g dose should weigh 25g as a shot (minus the glass). Time wise it should take approx 25-30 secs


----------



## kikapu

A little update to the thread.

I had training just over a week ago by 5Mcoffee which has helped no end.

My shot prep and espresso are consistently better and with less faff! Have started attempting steaming milk and have made some flat whites and lattes for the wife and guests (ok me too sometimes).

Still need to see if temp surfing really makes a difference to the taste.

This weekend I should hopefully be getting a MSJ







and will be interesting to see how this effects the coffee output/taste! Will keep you updated


----------



## chimpsinties

It'll probably go downhill again for a bit while you get used to the new grinder


----------



## kikapu

I dont doubt that! Just means will have to drink more coffee to get to the sweet spot!!


----------



## clickhappy

I've enjoyed reading this thread, I too have been struggling to produce drinkable espresso. I was closing in on producing an enjoyable shot with some Union beans bit now that bag is over and I'm back onto my Has Bean subscription and my coffee is as bad as ever.

I have invested in a Torr tamper and 15g VST basket in an attempt to reduce channeling, I was previously using a stepped basket and ill fitting tamper but I don't think it's really helped.

There is a Gaggia Classic on it's way to me this week with Silvia Wand (I couldn't help myself) to replace my Gaggia Baby Class which will allow me to adjust / reduce my brew pressure, currently measured at 12 bar.

After this, if I'm still unable to make drinkable espresso the fault must lie with me.

I weigh in and out, time shots, temperature surf calibrated to thermometer in cup, carefully distribute, tamp once firm and level, don't leave pf full of coffee whilst waiting for the machine to heat, backflush and clean plate and screen.....

Frustrated, moi?

It's good to hear the op has found improvement and it gives me faith.


----------



## chimpsinties

One thing you don't talk about is your grinder.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk


----------



## Jason1wood

I never could get a decent espresso from my Gaggia, totally different since I've installed a Fracino. Thought it was my tastebuds.


----------



## kikapu

chimpsinties said:


> It'll probably go downhill again for a bit while you get used to the new grinder


Downhill you say!! More like it fell off a cliff!

The issue is the mc2 whilst it does the job is totally different, for the same amount of coffee in the basket it takes up half the space!! (Obviously not true) guess due to less clumping but it meant my current distribution technique didn't work.

Daren mentioned using `nutating` to distribute. Well with much faffing I think I might have a technique that might be repeatable and work.

1. Fill portafilter as well distributed as possible from doser

2. Lower tamper slowly onto coffee

3. Then hold the top of the tamper and wiggle in a nutating motion with no downward pressure (amazingly this compacts the coffee really well)

4. Tamper should be sat level, lightly tamp

5. Polish

With the above managed to get two out of three shots in the right ballpark where as till i settled on the above had been getting 2oz shots in 22 seconds then the odd shot where hardly anything came out I was all over the place! Hopefully next time I try the above it will still work for me.

Any comment s? How do you use nutating in your routine?

Lastly I can't believe the taste difference from the mc2 to the super jolly!! Almost like a different drink!


----------



## Charliej

clickhappy said:


> I've enjoyed reading this thread, I too have been struggling to produce drinkable espresso. I was closing in on producing an enjoyable shot with some Union beans bit now that bag is over and I'm back onto my Has Bean subscription and my coffee is as bad as ever.
> 
> I have invested in a Torr tamper and 15g VST basket in an attempt to reduce channeling, I was previously using a stepped basket and ill fitting tamper but I don't think it's really helped.
> 
> There is a Gaggia Classic on it's way to me this week with Silvia Wand (I couldn't help myself) to replace my Gaggia Baby Class which will allow me to adjust / reduce my brew pressure, currently measured at 12 bar.
> 
> After this, if I'm still unable to make drinkable espresso the fault must lie with me.
> 
> I weigh in and out, time shots, temperature surf calibrated to thermometer in cup, carefully distribute, tamp once firm and level, don't leave pf full of coffee whilst waiting for the machine to heat, backflush and clean plate and screen.....
> 
> Frustrated, moi?
> 
> It's good to hear the op has found improvement and it gives me faith.


If you enjoyed what you were tasting from the Union beans I would take a guess that Hasbean aren't exactly to your taste as they tend to roast beans way way lighter than Union do it's probably worth checking out someone like Rave to see what you think of their beans.


----------



## clickhappy

Thanks for the replies, sorry about the thread hijack.



chimpsinties said:


> One thing you don't talk about is your grinder.


The grinder is an MC2, I remove my basket from the handle so I can rotate it beneath the grounds shoot to get an evenly distributed mound in the centre. I brush out the shoot after each grind.



Charliej said:


> If you enjoyed what you were tasting from the Union beans I would take a guess that Hasbean aren't exactly to your taste as they tend to roast beans way way lighter than Union do it's probably worth checking out someone like Rave to see what you think of their beans.


Good idea I'll get some Rave beans for the weekend. The issue is not just the beans though, since moving back to the Has Bean's I am contending with spritzers shooting out from the naked pf, pale crema, fast flow, dead spots etc. Hmmm, sounds like I need to tighten my grind significantly. Will have to have another try this evening.


----------



## Mrboots2u

clickhappy said:


> Thanks for the replies, sorry about the thread hijack.
> 
> The grinder is an MC2, I remove my basket from the handle so I can rotate it beneath the grounds shoot to get an evenly distributed mound in the centre. I brush out the shoot after each grind.
> 
> Good idea I'll get some Rave beans for the weekend. The issue is not just the beans though, since moving back to the Has Bean's I am contending with spritzers shooting out from the naked pf, pale crema, fast flow, dead spots etc. Hmmm, sounds like I need to tighten my grind significantly. Will have to have another try this evening.


Hi you have moved from a bean on the darker side , to one that might be lighter ( not all hasbean are as light can be , but it's probably lighter guessing ) . A you have indentifed lighter beans need a finer grind. Added tot his your vst basket will expose any flaws in distribution more clearly than a stock one ( this applies on any machine not just the gaggia ) .

Fast flow can be an indication of grounding finer , but it depends how much your shots are channeling ,as this will make them fast also .

If you are not already , stick to a consistent dose , a clip of prep and of the naked filter pour would help us see where any improvements can be made .

Do you nutate when you tamp ( this can help reduce channeling and distribution errors )

This may help 

__
https://flic.kr/p/4175453850

Credit to Gary for originally providing the link above .

If you can't do this a few questions for you . Are the dead spots/ channeling happening in the same part of the PF each time . If so would indicate a something in prep that is happening the same way each time . ( again credit Gary d , I stole this piece of advice form him )

Pull one , note where dead spots are , then if you can prep basket again and move it say 180 degrees ( perhaps take the spring outfox PF to do this ) . Do the dead spits and changeling move with the basket . If so then these are down to prep .

Pale cream is a result of fast pours ( grind and or channeling )

Cheers

Lastly am presuming the beans are fresh ?


----------



## clickhappy

I will try and post a video this evening. Beans are a couple of weeks since roasting. They are fairly light roast, a big jump from the dark union roast beans.

I don't think the channeling is happening in the same place each time but I take the basket out of the pf each time to weigh and distribute.

I've just bought a new tamper which fits too well to allow nutation :-(


----------



## Mrboots2u

clickhappy said:


> I will try and post a video this evening. Beans are a couple of weeks since roasting. They are fairly light roast, a big jump from the dark union roast beans.
> 
> I don't think the channeling is happening in the same place each time but I take the basket out of the pf each time to weigh and distribute.
> 
> I've just bought a new tamper which fits too well to allow nutation :-(


Ok look forward to a clip . Presuming that you have adjusted the grind finer as the bean is lighter ? Couple of weeks old beans are fresh so no worries there .


----------



## garydyke1

clickhappy said:


> I will try and post a video this evening. Beans are a couple of weeks since roasting. They are fairly light roast, a big jump from the dark union roast beans.
> 
> I don't think the channeling is happening in the same place each time but I take the basket out of the pf each time to weigh and distribute.
> 
> I've just bought a new tamper which fits too well to allow nutation :-(


You need another session!


----------



## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> If you enjoyed what you were tasting from the Union beans I would take a guess that Hasbean aren't exactly to your taste as they tend to roast beans way way lighter than Union do it's probably worth checking out someone like Rave to see what you think of their beans.


I dont think this is the case as he has enjoyed lighter roasted beans in Brum's cafes, 6/8 use Has Bean pretty much exclusively.

Technique and equipement issues shouldnt drive coffee choice, they should drive a desire to fix issues


----------



## clickhappy

garydyke1 said:


> You need another session!


Certainly do, I've got some new equipment now but still the same issues. I have a bag of Rave decaf on order so I can work on my technique with fewer shakes.


----------



## Charliej

garydyke1 said:


> I dont think this is the case as he has enjoyed lighter roasted beans in Brum's cafes, 6/8 use Has Bean pretty much exclusively.
> 
> Technique and equipement issues shouldnt drive coffee choice, they should drive a desire to fix issues


Hence my use of the word guess Gary, it may be that having tried Union he has found something he likes more? How would I know exactly what he has or hasn't sampled, just made a suggestion based on information provided, I know we will more than likely agree on what we think coffee should be like so better not go there again really , you think I'm a lost cause and vice versa


----------



## garydyke1

I think coffee whatever the roaster should be extracted properly . I have no interest in what beans he uses , when he came round mine we used Union . The focus should be on the technique and equipment not likes or dislikes


----------



## Charliej

garydyke1 said:


> I think coffee whatever the roaster should be extracted properly . I have no interest in what beans he uses , when he came round mine we used Union . The focus should be on the technique and equipment not likes or dislikes


Which is a great sentiment Gary, but what happens when several people prefer the same beans extracted differently to one another, who is to say which correct? To me saying there is only one way is as bad as chefs that refuse to serve beef anything other than rare or won't have salt and pepper at the tables, we are individuals with our own tastes, the saying one man's meat is another man's poison springs to mind. Provided you're happy with the taste of the coffee you make it's no-ones business to tell you it's right or wrong ( well anthorn excepted we all know he was just wrong). I guess what I'm saying is the focus should be on the taste in the cup and if your technique and equipment don't give you those results but are "correct" it's time to try a different coffee.


----------



## clickhappy

Here is a video of this evening's first shot.

26.5g from 15g of coffee in 26 seconds.

Taste is very bitter, not quite undrinkable but pretty bad.

I will upload my prep video next.


----------



## garydyke1

Yeah but get someone in ball-park first, then, they can decide correctly extracted for their palate.


----------



## Mrboots2u

your doing temp surfing presumably?


----------



## clickhappy

Mrboots2u said:


> your doing temp surfing presumably?


I am, usually draw off 40ml, element comes on then goes off again 15-20 seconds later. Then I operate the steam mode for 10-20 seconds before pulling the shot. This gives me 90-95 degree water when doing the polystyrene cup test.


----------



## koi1957

thanks for that get help


----------



## kikapu

clickhappy said:


> I am, usually draw off 40ml, element comes on then goes off again 15-20 seconds later. Then I operate the steam mode for 10-20 seconds before pulling the shot. This gives me 90-95 degree water when doing the polystyrene cup test.


If 95 in the cup would be lot hotter in the group head!!?! I think your temp is making it bitter! Just try pulling shot in the right ball park in terms of output without temp surfing and see about taste then. I don't temp surf and only drain off minimal water maybe 1oz or till steam from group head stops and that is only if I haven't poured off any water for 10mins or so. I would concentrate on getting a consistent output then play with temp surfing


----------



## kikapu

I have posted this on a separate thread but for completeness posting here (as I started this thread







) this is my current shot routine seems to have worked , well for tonight anyway!!


----------



## Charliej

TBH I don't bother with any faffing around on my Classic, it goes on at 7am with a timer and off around 10.30pm Whenever I've not made a coffee for a few hours (not often) I pull a little water through the group whilst grinding for my shot, then it's tamp, insert portafilter and pull shot. This routine seems to work for me and some others, some people seem to find they get better results if they pull a shot whilst standing on no legs licking their elbows, well you get the idea. The more complex a ritual you add into your shot prep the more there is to go wrong, I've never found the need to operate the steam switch until I want to do some milk, or steam clean my group head brush etc.

Try keeping it simple, grind, distribute and tamp then pull your shot and taste the results, in my early days with my Classic I found that I had more problems with grind, distribution and tamping consistency than with machine temperatures.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Take it it tasted ok then !


----------



## kikapu

Charliej said:


> TBH I don't bother with any faffing around on my Classic, it goes on at 7am with a timer and off around 10.30pm Whenever I've not made a coffee for a few hours (not often) I pull a little water through the group whilst grinding for my shot, then it's tamp, insert portafilter and pull shot. This routine seems to work for me and some others, some people seem to find they get better results if they pull shot whilst standing on no legs licking their elbows, well you get the idea. The more complex a ritual you add into your shot prep the more there is to go wrong, I've never found the need to operate the steam switch until I want to do some milk, or steam clean my group head brush etc.
> 
> Try keeping it simple, grind, distribute and tamp then pull your shot and taste the results, in my early days with my Classic I found that I had more problems with grind, distribution and tamping consistency than with machine temperatures.


This!! Once you have your technique sussed then faff with the temp surfing if you want but you probably won't need to!


----------



## kikapu

Mrboots2u said:


> Take it it tasted ok then !


Mine!?! Yes very nice, much better than anything I had done with the MC2 hopefully with working on my technique dialing in the grinder better and once burrs are fully seasoned|bedded in will hopefully be even better


----------



## garydyke1

kikapu said:


> If 95 in the cup would be lot hotter in the group head!!?! I think your temp is making it bitter! Just try pulling shot in the right ball park in terms of output without temp surfing and see about taste then. I don't temp surf and only drain off minimal water maybe 1oz or till steam from group head stops and that is only if I haven't poured off any water for 10mins or so. I would concentrate on getting a consistent output then play with temp surfing


The polystyrene cup test is meant to recreate measurable temperature in the basket/puck. So long as the routine is fixed and repeated then thats another variable removed.

The bitterness could be due to the uneven extraction, possibly cause by irregular distribution or other defects in shot prep.


----------



## Mrboots2u

kikapu said:


> Mine!?! Yes very nice, much better than anything I had done with the MC2 hopefully with working on my technique dialing in the grinder better and once burrs are fully seasoned|bedded in will hopefully be even better


Cool , it's little hard to tell re distributin and channeling without a naked PF, but ultimately if your happy with the taste that's all that counts.


----------



## kikapu

garydyke1 said:


> The polystyrene cup test is meant to recreate measurable temperature in the basket/puck. So long as the routine is fixed and repeated then thats another variable removed.
> 
> The bitterness could be due to the uneven extraction, possibly cause by irregular distribution or other defects in shot prep.


I think i was saying this in a round about way that temp surfing could be the reason its bitter but until the other issues he is having are sorted better to put to one side and get the dose distribution and tamp issues sorted first. Then once he has done that can see if he's temp surfing routine actually improves the shot or makes matters worse


----------



## kikapu

Mrboots2u said:


> Cool , it's little hard to tell re distributin and channeling without a naked PF, but ultimately if your happy with the taste that's all that counts.


Yeah taste is everything! Point taken about naked of but up till today if I had been using one I would have still been cleaning the walls!

I forgot here is a shot of the puck after, has some marks but think these are off the group head screen as seem to be in a pattern.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Ok what you dosing weight wise ?


----------



## kikapu

Made shot into a flat white after a little taste, ballsed up the milk though as was trying to hold jug in different way and forgot to look at temptag!!


----------



## kikapu

About 15 to 15.5


----------



## garydyke1

clickhappy said:


>


We need to try my grinder and prep + your machine; your grinder and prep my machine to rule out a couple of things.


----------



## clickhappy

That would be great. Are you free at all this weekend?

I have invested in a used Gaggia Classic so I can adjust the brew pressure and there is also a PID on its way to be fitted over Christmas.


----------



## garydyke1

Could probably spare a few hours at some point. Things are a little hectic right now, ill drop you a line


----------



## reneb

one observation from the last video you posted is that you have the portafilter locked in for about 15 seconds before hitting the brew switch while you wait for the light to come on. i'd have thought there's a small danger that this might burn the coffee, or is this only a risk with e61 groupheads? would it be better to lock the portafilter in as soon as the light comes on and then hit the brew switch? or are you better locking it in straight away as you are doing to keep the pf warm? any classic experts have any views?


----------



## bazschmaz

Also, pre infusion on a classic, any thoughts on how long to flick the switch on and off for to wet it up and then how long to leave it before actually pulling the shot?


----------



## Mrboots2u

bazschmaz said:


> Also, pre infusion on a classic, any thoughts on how long to flick the switch on and off for to wet it up and then how long to leave it before actually pulling the shot?


Not sure if this would work or not , but would opening the steam arm briefly at the start of the shot, and therefore diverting some water away from the brewhead, act as a crude pre infusion . Say 3 seconds ?


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## garydyke1

reneb said:


> one observation from the last video you posted is that you have the portafilter locked in for about 15 seconds before hitting the brew switch while you wait for the light to come on. i'd have thought there's a small danger that this might burn the coffee, or is this only a risk with e61 groupheads? would it be better to lock the portafilter in as soon as the light comes on and then hit the brew switch? or are you better locking it in straight away as you are doing to keep the pf warm? any classic experts have any views?


Ive already slapped his wrist for that. This can be mitigated by using a cold portafilter


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## reneb

sorry gary, hadn't read the thread all the way through. did wonder if this might be contributing to bitterness, but likely to be other things as well.


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## clickhappy

reneb said:


> one observation from the last video you posted is that you have the portafilter locked in for about 15 seconds before hitting the brew switch while you wait for the light to come on. i'd have thought there's a small danger that this might burn the coffee, or is this only a risk with e61 groupheads? would it be better to lock the portafilter in as soon as the light comes on and then hit the brew switch? or are you better locking it in straight away as you are doing to keep the pf warm? any classic experts have any views?


I usually have the machine ready before locking the pf and immediately pulling the shot, in filming the shot I got flustered and locked it in too early.


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## bazschmaz

I lock in the empty PF and let it head up with the machine. Machine is hot when the spout on the PF is too hot to touch. This ensures the whole brew head is up to temp before pulling the first shot. Makes a huge difference.


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## clickhappy

Here is a video of my shot prep.











Ignoring the temp surfing has made the shot slightly more palatable, I think I'll stay away from the steam switch from now on.

The distribution was far from my best but didn't seem to lead to a particularly poor extraction.

This shot did end up a bit short, 21.5g of espresso from 15g coffee (was hoping for 24-25g)


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## Charliej

OK I just watched the most recent vids and just a couple of observations: Firstly fuck me I really don't miss the MC2's dulcet tones whilst grinding. What may be worth a try is what I used to do, instead of grinding into the basket I used to grind into a thin glass that was just the right size to hold enough for up to a 22g dose if I was playing with the big basket, and from there poured it into the basket in the portafilter, I found some small plastic pots in the supermarket and cut one down to make my own dosing funnel, also from the look of your grip on the tamper and your arm you appear to be tamping pretty hard, consistency of tamping pressure is far more important than the mythical 30lbs/15kg of pressure and obviously the finer you grind the lighter you should need to tamp. I also place whatever I'm pulling the shot into on the scales whilst pulling the shot, that way it's far easier to stop the shot where you want it rather than stop it and then weigh, I usually pull the shot into whatever cup I'm going to be drinking it out of anyway, with the sole exception of lattes for one friend who refuses to be convinced the coffee doesn't need drowning with milk. It might also be worth trying one of the larger VST baskets as a larger dose may lead to an espresso more to your tastes, I suggest you try this at Gary's as I think he has a range of sizes of baskets.


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## clickhappy

Thanks for the reply. The grinder is very noisy, I'm keeping my eye out for a used Mazzer at a price I can't resist. I will have a go at grinding into a glass and have already made a dosing funnel I can use for this.

I bought the 15g VST basket as I wanted to use less coffee and limit my caffeine intake, didn't really think about the impact on flavour.


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## bazschmaz

so all this talk of VST...I had to google them, are they worth the twenty notes?


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## Jason1wood

That's my next upgrade, many people say they are worth the cash.


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## clickhappy

I got one as I was struggling with channelling. My happy donkey tamper was a poor fit in the the standard basket so I upgraded to a VST basket and tamper to suit.

It has made my extractions more repeatable but not sure how much of this is attributed to just having a better fitting tamper.


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## garydyke1

clickhappy said:


> Here is a video of my shot prep.


Why did you stop the shot at 21.5g? Did you fix time as a variable?


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## Charliej

garydyke1 said:


> Why did you stop the shot at 21.5g? Did you fix time as a variable?


He doesn't have the scales underneath the shotglass so must be weighing after he stops the shot which, to me, kind of defeats the object of weighing.


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## bazschmaz

I've just pulled 15g in 25 seconds to give 30ml of fluid. It tastes really good. Not as good a taste in the double basket as in the single I have to admit.


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## clickhappy

garydyke1 said:


> Why did you stop the shot at 21.5g? Did you fix time as a variable?


I did, it'd only just started to blonde. Will put scales under the next shot.


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## forzajuve

In every method of coffee making I have ditched the timer. Time is by far the least important variable, so much it counts for nothing in my book. Brew ratios are very important though so keep weighing and let that be your initial guide, adjusted by taste not by time. It's actually quite liberating and more enjoyable too!


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## kikapu

forzajuve said:


> In every method of coffee making I have ditched the timer. Time is by far the least important variable, so much it counts for nothing in my book. Brew ratios are very important though so keep weighing and let that be your initial guide, adjusted by taste not by time. It's actually quite liberating and more enjoyable too!


So would you stop it short of desired weight if it blondes?


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## forzajuve

kikapu said:


> So would you stop it short of desired weight if it blondes?


But what does that mean. All shots go lighter in colour as they progress, is it a bad thing? How blonde does it need to get before you stop? Again, using parameters that are so uncertain and cannot be quantified add nothing in my book. Go to your target output weight and then taste. Biiter? Sour? Adjust accordingly and hit that target weight again. If it tastes fantastic but took 35 secs rather than 25 secs would you think it was bad because of some preconceived idea of how long a shot should take?


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## Mrboots2u

forzajuve said:


> But what does that mean. All shots go lighter in colour as they progress, is it a bad thing? How blonde does it need to get before you stop? Again, using parameters that are so uncertain and cannot be quantified add nothing in my book. Go to your target output weight and then taste. Biiter? Sour? Adjust accordingly and hit that target weight again. If it tastes fantastic but took 35 secs rather than 25 secs would you think it was bad because of some preconceived idea of how long a shot should take?


Very sensible advice indeed ! When i was looking at the londinium forum before the range of extractions and weights people were getting from roughly same doses was really variable. The key was that to the extractors , they all tasted great ! It helps when you have a rock sold temperature stable machine , as it does take that variable out the equation when your thinking what's making it sour or bitter ....


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## garydyke1

kikapu said:


> So would you stop it short of desired weight if it blondes?


Blonding early might be defect in the shot prep anyway, as oppose to a good extraction ending naturally


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## forzajuve

garydyke1 said:


> Blonding early might be defect in the shot prep anyway, as oppose to a good extraction ending naturally


Thats true, I should caveat that the previous statement was based on using a naked pf so you can clearly see if shot prep defects were present or not.


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## kikapu

Ok makes more sense and especially if you have a stable temperature machine

15.5 g in 24.8g out - taste

15.5g in 27.9g out - taste

15.5g in 21.7g out - taste

Which tastes best then thats your ratio for that bean

The issue would be if you are getting your 27.9g output in 15 seconds then its a technique problem/defect issue.

As you say the simplest was would be to use a naked pf to determine if its a shot prep issue. I dont have one and given I may be upgrading soon I am probably going to wait till I purchase my next machine before I get one

So without a naked pf its worth keeping an eye on the time and as long as hitting the desired volume in say 23-35 seconds you are probably not having defects? Or it this total nonsense?


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## kikapu

Also seperate to this is if the shot starts to blonde when you have only got half your output its a shot defect issue too??


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## garydyke1

I would say if any of these questions need to be posed then Problem exists between machine and grinder









The 15g VST is the least forgiving out of the 15/18/20/22 baskets. Puck depth is so shallow that any defects in distribution/tamping are cruelly exposed


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## forzajuve

My point was more that for each three shots you stop at exactly (or as near as possible) the same output weight (your target - more on that to follow). For this you need to have you shot receptor on scales whilst extracting.

Taste the first shot, sour but no evidence of channelling etc. then tighten the grind.

Second shot, bit roasty and bitter, visually quite slow on the pour, ooops gone to fine, back off the grind a touch.

Third shot, yummy that was bang tidy, nice job you are dialled in for you chosen output.

In all three it is assumed that shot prep was correct and the same dose was applied to all. This means all you are adjusting is the grind according to one thing, taste. It also assumes you know what your target output is. This is just a case of trial and error as you dial in your own preferable taste, which can vary by bean but 1.6 x input weight is a good place to start.


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## forzajuve

kikapu said:


> So without a naked pf its worth keeping an eye on the time and as long as hitting the desired volume in say 23-35 seconds you are probably not having defects? Or it this total nonsense?


My friend you need a naked pf by the sounds. Some defects are subtle which may not affect overall time, others are so big (e.g. dead spot in centre of puck, rapid channelling around the edge) that again the overall time vs volume/weight is in that range. Early blonding may indicate the latter but you really need to see what is going on to know where to improve.


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## kikapu

forzajuve said:


> My point was more that for each three shots you stop at exactly (or as near as possible) the same output weight (your target - more on that to follow). For this you need to have you shot receptor on scales whilst extracting.
> 
> Taste the first shot, sour but no evidence of channelling etc. then tighten the grind.
> 
> Second shot, bit roasty and bitter, visually quite slow on the pour, ooops gone to fine, back off the grind a touch.
> 
> Third shot, yummy that was bang tidy, nice job you are dialled in for you chosen output.
> 
> In all three it is assumed that shot prep was correct and the same dose was applied to all. This means all you are adjusting is the grind according to one thing, taste. It also assumes you know what your target output is. This is just a case of trial and error as you dial in your own preferable taste, which can vary by bean but 1.6 x input weight is a good place to start.


That makes even more sense!!


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## Charliej

garydyke1 said:


> I would say if any of these questions need to be posed then Problem exists between machine and grinder


I never realised that a kitchen worktop and a bit of air could have such a detrimental effect on a shot


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## kikapu

garydyke1 said:


> I would say if any of these questions need to be posed then Problem exists between machine and grinder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 15g VST is the least forgiving out of the 15/18/20/22 baskets. Puck depth is so shallow that any defects in distribution/tamping are cruelly exposed


So you say you think I need to upgrade my machine hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm interesting!!

Why did nobody tell me!!







Well that sounds like me making life difficult for myseld as usual! So when I get my 18g VAT next week everything will be rosey and I wont need to upgrade my machine! Thats a relief


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## kikapu

forzajuve said:


> My friend you need a naked pf by the sounds. Some defects are subtle which may not affect overall time, others are so big (e.g. dead spot in centre of puck, rapid channelling around the edge) that again the overall time vs volume/weight is in that range. Early blonding may indicate the latter but you really need to see what is going on to know where to improve.


Oh I will get one just once I have purchased my next machine


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## garydyke1

No no no. The point between machine and grinder is the barista! lol

Its the old IT , have you switched it off and back on again. PEBKAM - Problem exists between keyboard and mouse


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## kikapu

garydyke1 said:


> No no no. The point between machine and grinder is the barista! lol
> 
> Its the old IT , have you switched it off and back on again. PEBKAM - Problem exists between keyboard and mouse


Oh so you were insulting me!! Many thanks for clearing that up!


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## garydyke1

Coffee has no time for yes men. If you were fully in control of your espresso brewing you wouldnt be posting in this thread asking questions










In a years time you'll look back at this thread (polishing your brewtus) with a wry smile. Espresso is hard work and it takes experience and practice to get it right consistantly


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## Charliej

garydyke1 said:


> No no no. The point between machine and grinder is the barista! lol
> 
> Its the old IT , have you switched it off and back on again. PEBKAM - Problem exists between keyboard and mouse


I know that Gary also often referred to as ID ten T error.


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## bazschmaz

https://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x17trv3

First try with a naked PF.


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## Mrboots2u

bazschmaz said:


> https://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x17trv3


I'm struggling to get this clip to play on a tablet ....


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## The Systemic Kid

Wow, a Gaggia that professes love when you pull a shot - impressive.

Distribution looks fine - even pour - think you need to tighten up the grind though - flowing too fast.


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## garydyke1

yes way too coarse a grind. thats some serious crema!


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## GS11

Agreed tighten up the grind

Nice PF btw looks familiar


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