# Profile influences



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

After a very brief discussion with someone yesterday about grinders, and the implications of pairing with regards to profiles , in my curious mind I got to thinking again about the L1 and its profile which is essentially created by its spring.

Can the profile be influenced by manipulation or resistance added to the lever during extraction ?

If it can how will the profile change and is it beneficial or does it bring anything to the extraction ?

Not trying to create a massive debate , but just wanting to understand a little more about the benefits of lever profiles and what the much famed and well respected L1 is capable of.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Thecatlinux said:


> Can the profile be influenced by manipulation or resistance added to the lever during extraction ?


Probably, but how would you be able to determine that you were resisting the lever in a safe (I have a mental image of someone being clocked in the face by a fishing scale slipping off the end of the lever), consistent & repeatable manner?



Thecatlinux said:


> If it can how will the profile change and is it beneficial or does it bring anything to the extraction ?


My guess would be that if you were able to repeatably reduce the initial pressure, or even the pressure throughout the profile, you'd increase extraction yield & shot time for a given dose, brew ratio & grind. I suspect most folks would probably adjust grind to bring the ideal extraction back on track, within more typical parameters, with the original profile?

It would maybe end up a case of "swings & roundabouts"?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Lever machines can always be manipulated, but as has been stated above there is very little chance that you can make this repeatable, the beauty of a lever extraction is the implicitly and repeatability of the extraction when just allowing the machine to do what it is supposed to do. When you get more skilled in the use of levers you can play a Lot more with extractions, however for as long as I have been using lever machines, there is always a discrepancy however minute in the shots that I manipulate.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

What happens if you hold the lever before it's finished ? Will the machine stall ?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I'm also curious about this as I like the idea of a lever but am slightly put off by the (possibly erroneous) idea that it takes years of skill, practice, feel, dark arts etc to get it right. Or is that a complete misconception and it's really "pull'n'go" with the machine managing the profile by simplicity of design?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

From what I saw on the recent get together at Rave all you have to watch out for is getting hit on the chin.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> From what I saw on the recent get together at Rave all you have to watch out for is getting hit on the chin.


By the lever returning you mean? Or by the machines owner after suggesting that his grinder isn't a good pairing?!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Lever machines like the l1 with a sprung lever are simple to use, it is different to a pump machine and will require some basic techniques, but nothing complicated. The spring is quite fierce so you have to release the pressure to the point where the puck resistance takes over, very carefully. But it really is simple to get repeatable fantastic shots from these machines. Even die hard pump maniacs like Ron would be able to


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> From what I saw on the recent get together at Rave all you have to watch out for is getting hit on the chin.


Is that when I took the lever off and threatened you with it


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

hotmetal said:


> I'm also curious about this as I like the idea of a lever but am slightly put off by the (possibly erroneous) idea that it takes years of skill, practice, feel, dark arts etc to get it right. Or is that a complete misconception and it's really "pull'n'go" with the machine managing the profile by simplicity of design?


A - It's different to pushing a button , you need a stronger arm for one

B- You still need good basic dose grind prep skills and a good grinder , these are what hold most people back , but this is the same for a pump or lever ...

There are lots of different levers and CC skill sand knowledge is being able to walk up to a sprung lever , or a vintage one and pull consistent great shots and manipulate the out of the ordinary .

If you have B and can adapt them to the lever you would be fine and pulling great shots in no time at all.

Then you get the badge and to know the special handshake


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Thanks CC and Boots. So I guess a vintage lever is the one I'm thinking of where you really have to become one with the machine, and a sprung one is the more modern version which manages its own profile?

A - Lol!

B - gives me plenty of time to save up for one then


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Not quite, sprung levers have been around for over 50 years, and they all do effectively the same thing which is manage the extraction for you. Cremina, caravel, la pavoni, are different, with these you will be applying the pressure, not a spring and thus require a much more consistent hand.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Not quite, sprung levers have been around for over 50 years, and they all do effectively the same thing which is manage the extraction for you. Cremina, caravel, la pavoni, are different, with these you will be applying the pressure, not a spring and thus require a much more consistent hand.


Yah sorry wasn't clear on the spring lever or the non sprung , bit more skill and practice needed to deliver consistency than on a sprung


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

And if you add resistance to the lever on a spring machine , as the spring is expanding , will this reduce the pressure during the extraction ?


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Thecatlinux said:


> And if you add resistance to the lever on a spring machine , as the spring is expanding , will this reduce the pressure during the extraction ?


You really wouldn't want to do that on an LI - once the spring takes over, it's a hell of a force.

I believe it's not just the spring that determines the profile, but the cams and he design of the piston as well. The spring lever has evolved over decades and works beautifully. If you want to endlessly tweak and adjust, you are probably better off with an electronically controlled twin boiler machine.

Manual lever machines like the Cremina are a little different. There is a particular pleasure in applying the pressure to the handle yourself, but when I had a Cremina my concern was more to achieve consistency rather than variation.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Wasn't thinking so much of tweaking , I was just trying to get to get a better understanding of what manipulations you could do with a spring lever , as read before by many many L1 users , the profile created by the spring achieves a real unique and much loved profile, after seeing CC video do the Fellini and how you could influence essentially the profile and ultimately the length of the extraction I was curious to what other influences you could create by manipulating the lever .

I was thinking if you added a little resistance to the lever it would slow the release/expansion of the spring .(not sure what the result or necessarily trying to achieve anything but just curious )


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Levers (one pull of the lever) work on a fixed (relatively) volume of the group. So, from the water held in the group, some will be eaten up by the wet puck, some group volume may be taken up by air (which may be compressed), this all affects how much output you get. The Fellini move is more to increase/maximise the water introduced to the group & subsequently shot weight.

Slowing the release of the spring would probably increase extraction yield...but then so would a finer grind, but with a more consistent profile from the spring.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Thats a real good answer , use the spring profile for consistency use the grind to adjust the yield .

i only ask the question to stave off my curiosity , and just to get more of an understanding how a spring lever works . Had an idea of an adjustable damper for the spring , although this would I think alter the length of time for the profile and not adjust the profile itself.


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