# My first proper espresso machine.



## TrickyDicky (Dec 11, 2016)

Hi all,

After a couple of months with my Eureka Mignon I am getting regular acceptable coffee but I think my old Saeco Gran Crema is struggling. After initial research I think I would prefer to step over a single boiler and go straight to HX machines. I don't have an issue with learning to flush and like the temp stability and ability to brew and steam at the same time. Budget would be up to £1,000 and I am happy to look at machines at any budget up to this. I would like to try and get to Bella Barista if possible but it may not be easy. The three I had identified are below but always looking for advice! I tend to drink flat whites.

Nuova Simonelli Oscar II OPV - most budget orientated of the three, worried (maybe needlessly) that there is no hot water tap but with the OPV reports seem to show good results once the pressure is dialed down.

Fracino Cherub - liked the idea of buying British, customer service and ease of servicing and obtaining parts.

Rocket Apartamento - top of the budget but look at it! Has consistently excellent reviews but maybe too much?

I don't want to be looking at upgrading any time soon. Any I have missed at any price point up to the Rocket?

All advice appreciated.

Rich


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

It looks like a good shortlist







And I am sure you will soon get more recommendations!

I would really recommend a trip to BB if at all possible. Seeing the machines 'in person' really does help the decision process. Although they have an impressive display they are not all available to test (so you may want to give them a call before you go so you know what's what).

I can't wait to see what you finish up with!


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Looks great Rich, enjoy the process of getting a great machine.

I recommend you consider adding ECM barista to your list. Is at BB and is essentially a technika/mechanika without some bells and whistles.... so that means superbly engineered machine and looks great. Outstanding value for money IMO


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

I'd look at the Sage Dual Boiler, for that kind of money. It depends on you, of course, but it has a lot going for it (IMO - as an owner of one).


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## pedg (Apr 11, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> I recommend you consider adding ECM barista to your list. Is at BB and is essentially a technika/mechanika without some bells and whistles.... so that means superbly engineered machine and looks great. Outstanding value for money IMO


+1

Don't bother with the Nuova Simonelli, it's cheap and nasty plasticy rubbish.

Rocket machines are not my cup of tea and I feel you can get better for the same money.

I would highly recommend going for the ECM Barista or the Profitec 500 at this price range. It will DEFINITELY be worth the extra couple of hundred pounds to have one of these machines.

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/profitec-500-coffee-machine-rb.html

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/ecm-barista.html



jlarkin said:


> I'd look at the Sage Dual Boiler, for that kind of money. It depends on you, of course, but it has a lot going for it (IMO - as an owner of one).


I wouldn't bother with the Sage either. I had one, and whilst it was 'ok' it was nothing special at all, and I was fairly quickly bored of it. Again they fall firmly on the 'Consumer' side of espresso making, are plasticy and feel a bit cheap and are not really what most would consider a 'proper' espresso machine. The Dual Boiler is the best of the bunch, but the two HX Machines (ECM and Profitec) I have linked on here will be far better for the same kind of money, and the ECM and Profitec are classed as Prosumer machines, just.

I've just spent the last month researching every aspect of espresso machines to find a suitable replacement for my Sage.

Just out of interest, what grinder do you plan to use/purchase to go with this machine?

Cheers.

GP


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

@pedg how many of those machines have you owned ?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

As boots says have you actually owned the safe dual boiler? I think you had the cheaper sage


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## Brewster (Jun 9, 2015)

The old Oscar was plasticy, but I thought the newer one was a bit more sturdy?

The Nuova Simonelli Musica is available for £1050, mine has run perfectly since since I've had it. I find the volumetrics a big plus, when properly calibrated with a consistent on demand grinder, it takes a lot of the steps out of the process!


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## pedg (Apr 11, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> As boots says have you actually owned the safe dual boiler? I think you had the cheaper sage


I had the Duo Temp Pro, but the build quality, plastic materials, and proprietary components are the same throughout the sage range. Its not bad, just not great. I'm fairly familiar with the sage line-up, and whilst you are getting into the Dual-boiler territory, if you have problems outside the warranty period they are likely to be more expensive to fix, and you don't get the E61 group on any of them.

When you see the Sage machines (any of them) next to the likes of the Profitecs and ECMS, the difference in build quality/components is fairly obvious, even from a distance.

The Sage Dual Boiler retails at £1199, which is exactly the same price as BB are selling the ECM Barista for. There's absolutely no way I'd go for the Sage over the ECM for the same money!


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

pedg said:


> Rocket machines are not my cup of tea and I feel you can get better for the same money.


What was it you didn't like about your Rocket machine . . .


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## pedg (Apr 11, 2017)

MildredM said:


> What was it you didn't like about your Rocket machine . . .


I've never had a Rocket machine, but they just aren't my cup of tea, I don't know why. In a similar sense that I tend to go for VWs and Alfa Romeos are not really my kind of car. I've never owned an Alfa either.

They seem to be more 'show' than 'go'.

The R58 is in the same price bracket as the Profi 700, and personally, from my research over the past few weeks, the profi with the built in PID and timer was more my thing, and as a result feel its better value for money (for me, I can't speak for anyone else).

I don't suppose they're bad, just not for me! If it was a choice of a Rocket or nothing I'd have one for sure!


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

I have some points to pick up on. I'm not trying to change your mind pedg - this is more for others who might be interested and doesn't really cover anything that people on here aren't generally aware of.



pedg said:


> I had the Duo Temp Pro, but the build quality, plastic materials, and proprietary components are the same throughout the sage range.


However their are some important differences between the two machines. For instance, the Sage DB takes a 58mm portafilter, so you can use all the normally expected baskets, tampers etc. which is not the case with the DTP.

You also get volumetric control,

A group head with inbuilt magic so it warms up the portafilter much more quickly than a traditional E61 or other group (that doesn't have something similar in it)

A built in timer to turn the machine on in the mornings for you

A built in option for cleaning, so you can put your cleaning product (puly or sage tablets etc.) into the portafilter and it'll turn the pump on and off and vent at specific times to clean.

Pre-infusion with customisable time and pressure or finally some amount of pressure control on the shot which is handy if you want to try some lower pressure shots and then just change it back again or keep it, it's literally a couple of button presses either way.



pedg said:


> The Sage Dual Boiler retails at £1199, which is exactly the same price as BB are selling the ECM Barista for. There's absolutely no way I'd go for the Sage over the ECM for the same money!


Most people aren't buying them at that price. They may have risen again recently but they were going closer to £900 at one point and I think if somebody interested in purchasing them wasn't in a hurry they might find it at that price again. Their is no way I would go for an ECM Barista or another machine over the Sage DB! Funny old world innit.



pedg said:


> and you don't get the E61 group on any of them.


You imply this is a disadvantage, for why?



pedg said:


> if you have problems outside the warranty period they are likely to be more expensive to fix


This could be true, although I imagine you're just guessing. The possible advantage you gain with the dual boiler is that you have support via Sage and the company they work with (I think it's coffee classics or similar name). Huge amounts of this machine have been sold, especially compared to most machines on the market in the UK. So again a guess, you never know they may actually offer a fairly competitive service. I think somebody bought a 3 yr warranty from one company for the machine at a pretty reasonable price, I don't know if you can do that with all machines or not - just a thought.



pedg said:


> Its not bad, just not great.


I'll assume this is the DTP, as you wouldn't make this assertion about a machine that you've never tried?


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

If looking for long term value go with metal with the rocket or pro700 - they will be repairable for ever and keep a better value.........when you upgrade again.


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## pedg (Apr 11, 2017)

@TrickyDicky My best advice would be to make sure you see and play with all the machines you may be looking to buy, plus some at a lower price point (Rancilio Silvia perhaps) and some at a higher price point (Profitec 700/Rocket R58) and see which one YOU prefer, which is what its all about innit!

I tested a HX against a DB side by side and couldn't tell the difference in the cup (but this is just me, speaking from my experience with Bellabarista), so if I was going to go for a pump fed machine it would be the ECM Mechanika, as I believe it is a superb machine at a superb price. The ECM Barista I recommended is very similar just with spinny knobs and a vibe pump.

@jlarkin Makes some valid points, and you can probably have a play with a Sage DB at your local Lakeland or John Lewis, as they may have one on demo. If that's what you prefer, go for it. At the end of the day you are going to be the one using it, not me or anyone else on here, so you really need to buy what makes you happy.

There's a lot of opinion on forums, and you need to be careful about what people (including me) say. If you don't believe me or anyone else, the best way is to go out and try for yourself. The most important thing though is that you get what works for you, and not something because someone with owners goggles has recommended it.

I re-read the OP as well, and picked out that you use a Eureka Mignon grinder...I missed it the first time as i'm not really into grinders. I have a Mazzer Mini and have no intention of changing it in the very near future so didn't bother do any in depth research into grinders.

Any Q's I'd be more than happy to help.

Check out my reviews, might help might not, but maybe worth a look if your suffering from insomnia.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?37447-The-Facts-from-the-Fiction-(Types-of-Espresso-Machine)

Don't rush into anything.

Cheers.

GP


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## TrickyDicky (Dec 11, 2016)

So I had a meeting at Silverstone today and decided it was worth the extra few miles to travel to Bella Barista. They were a lovely bunch of people happy to help a newbie like me.

I had gone in having thought the Rocket was the machine for me but in the end following discussion and a great coffee I think I will be going with *drum roll*

The ECM Barista. More than I wanted to spend but the build quality and quietness won me over. So hopefully I can order at the end of the month!


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

TrickyDicky said:


> So I had a meeting at Silverstone today and decided it was worth the extra few miles to travel to Bella Barista. They were a lovely bunch of people happy to help a newbie like me.
> 
> I had gone in having thought the Rocket was the machine for me but in the end following discussion and a great coffee I think I will be going with *drum roll*
> 
> The ECM Barista. More than I wanted to spend but the build quality and quietness won me over. So hopefully I can order at the end of the month!


Congratulations tricky - pretty much the same happened to me when I arrived there. ECM build quality is hard to resist isn't it, I'm sure you'll be delighted when u get going at home.

A meeting at Silverstone?! That's far too glamorous to not tell us more?


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## TrickyDicky (Dec 11, 2016)

kennyboy993 said:


> Congratulations tricky - pretty much the same happened to me when I arrived there. ECM build quality is hard to resist isn't it, I'm sure you'll be delighted when u get going at home.
> 
> A meeting at Silverstone?! That's far too glamorous to not tell us more?


The build edged it for me. I love cars and Ferraris look amazing but I know I would opt for Porsche!

They are building a new heritage museum and I am on the design team. Will be an fantastic project when finished. It's in the media so should be ok me mentioning it!

And The Roastery it turns out also has F1 connections.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Lucky man, enjoy the project - and you're air cooled 911 of an espresso machine ;-)


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