# DIY PID Steam and Brew



## majnu

Wanting to learn more about the intricacies of coffee I installed a PID yesterday. It still needs setting up (Steam Alarm and Brew temperature control values) but hopefully this will bring more consistent tasty shots; temperature stability with the addition of having steam control, if it does then the PID was a success(!)

Compared to the Auber (which from research has a detailed fitting guide, pre-set algorithms, fittings and a nice case) the DIY route imo isn't a difficult task and you can get near enough equal results for a fraction of the price.

Price can vary between £20-40 depending on whether you want to include a RTD PT100 sensor and a project box. Or if you don't have the crimps, wire cutters, spanners, thermal paste terminals and wires, dremmel etc already at home.

*Wiring Guide*

I wrote below is for a REX-C100 which is readily available on ebay. Hopefully this will help if others want to do the same.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YKahCYmW8_O8aR2HE877M7nzGrYzTuF3Lse6WfiQsog/edit?usp=sharing

I went for a MyPin TA4 just because of the colourful buttons, but functionality wise they are the same.

*Pics*

*
*




































*Project Box*

*
*One thing I didn't account for when selecting the enclosure was the retaining clasp size, which unfortunately if I mounted the PID in the horizontal position there was no room for it to fit and hold the PID in place. So bear that in mind, you'll probably need a bigger one as I preferred the layout horizontally. Maplins do sell bigger sizes which do match the Classic's housing.










*Clip fits in Vertical Position*










*Drill & Cut enclosure*



















*PID horizontally mounted*

*
*









*PID vertically mounted*










*Parts*

*
*PID Controller + 40A SSR +K Thermocouple Probe - *£10.90*

*
*SSR-40AA *£2.85*



*
**These project boxes will only fit the MyPIN TA4, NOT REX-C100*

Aluminium Box 11 - *£5.00*

*
*Aluminium Box 28 seems to be a better PID box but these are limited quantity and available for click and collect only* -** £1.00*

*
*

*Optional Upgrade*

RTD PT100 - *£23.32*

Forum member MrShades can supply this at a cheaper rate and UK stock - *£15*

*Additional Parts Required but I already had (But all available from Ebay/Maplins) :*

24 and 14 AWG Wires (Turnigy or WYH)

Connectors (Piggyback, Fork and Spade)

Sleeving

Thermal Paste

100ma Fuse & Holder


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## Dylan

Very nice Majnu. Is the PID box custom made?


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## Mike mc

Looks good


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## majnu

Dylan said:


> Very nice Majnu. Is the PID box custom made?


No mate, it's an aluminium box I bought from maplins and cut. Will update the first post later to include what parts I bought, where from and cost.


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## marcuswar

Thanks for posting Majnu, I hope it inspires others to do the mod as it really helps nail down one of the more variable parameters when using the Gaggia.

This is pretty much what I did to mine when I used to use the Classic as my main machine, although I never bothered with the steam side of things just the brew temperature. I seem to remember the PID, probe and SSR cost me £20 all in. I just stuck the probe to the boiler with a big lump of BluTack, although longer term I always intened to use SUGRU instead. I also have to open up the PID to remove the two small relays and solder a jumper across the connections so that it could drive the SSR without the need of an additional DC transformer. Easy enough to do but be careful not to break any of the wires in the ribbon cable connecting the two boards like I did... re-soldering that took much longer !

One thing you haven't mentioned in the document is the "training" of the PID. I seem to remember I had to put it into training mode, set a desired temperature and then let it run through a series of heatup/cooldown cycles while it determined the thermal profile of the boiler. When it does this, it will intentionally overshoot the set temperature and so I would suggest you set the temperature a little lower than the one you will eventually end up using for coffee to avoid any chance of it blowing the internal fuse. I seem to remember I set mine at 70 degree for training but it was a long time ago so I can't be sure... just keep an eye on it and be ready to pull the plug if the temperature starts to climb much over 120 C


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## Dylan

Great, it matches the classic really well.


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## marcuswar

That's a nice little metal box you've used to house the PID. Looks a very neat job.

I used a length of square section (60mm) extruded aluminium tube for my PID Box.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160326517682?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

The seller will cut the tube in half if you ask him to so you end up with 2 sections each 125mm long which is just about right.

I then used a couple of black plastic blanking caps at each end

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271001061749?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

A little time spent with a sharp knife and/or Dremel and the PID slips in nicely.


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## marcuswar

Out of interest Majnu, how did you attach the PID box to the side of the Gaggia ?

I had intended to use some small stick on magnets but in the end they weren't strong enough to hold it in place so it ended up just sitting on top of the machine


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## majnu

marcuswar said:


> Out of interest Majnu, how did you attach the PID box to the side of the Gaggia ?
> 
> I had intended to use some small stick on magnets but in the end they weren't strong enough to hold it in place so it ended up just sitting on top of the machine


Just some strong double sided tape.


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## marcuswar

LoL, sometimes the most obvious is the most obscure









Thanks Majnu


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## Southpaw

Good effort









Picture hanging Velcro would do a good job for attaching to the side.


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## Dylan

Velcro tends to sag a bit with anything that protrudes out at all like this. If you wanted a removable solution then Dual Lock would give it a firmer hold.


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## majnu

Peeps

I found a place that sells the PT100 sensor with the M4 nut for 12 Euros shipped, much cheaper than the £25 from Auber.

http://www.kaffee-netz.de/threads/verkaufe-schraubfuehler-pt100-fuer-pid-fuer-gaggia-classic-rancilio-silvia.75329/

Just contact the guy on the forum (Which is in German). Even though it seems he has sold out hopefully if there is enough demand he will make some more. By including a brass washer he has eliminated the chance of threading the nut that enters the boiler.

It also fits the Rancilio Silvia (Bj. 2000 to 07/2006). Since PID's are getting cheaper by the day and people are tackling it themselves shall I enquire for a bulk buy just so we have stock available for forum members?

Edit - I came across the thread as I was searching what the devil a quickmill pulse damper was and how to fit a pressure guage in the front of a classic and saw his thread:

http://www.kaffee-netz.de/threads/mein-pid-projekt-an-der-gaggia-classic.75158/

http://www.kaffee-netz.de/threads/schalldaemmung-vibrationspumpe.32786/page-3


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## froggystyle

Is that a steam only PID or temp also?


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## marcuswar

Nice find majnu, I'm sure that will be very helpful to people who are not confident enough (or don't have the equipment) to drill a bolt themselves



majnu said:


> ...By including a brass washer he has eliminated the chance of threading the nut that enters the boiler.


I'm confused by this statement ... what do you mean by "..chance of threading the nut" ?

If we are talking about using this on a Gaggia Classic then the "hole" in the boiler that this would screw into is not straight through into the boiler itself, it's only partially into the wall of the boiler i.e. there is no chance of any water leak or anything like that.


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## majnu

marcuswar said:


> Nice find majnu, I'm sure that will be very helpful to people who are not confident enough (or don't have the equipment) to drill a bolt themselves
> 
> I'm confused by this statement ... what do you mean by "..chance of threading the nut" ?
> 
> If we are talking about using this on a Gaggia Classic then the "hole" in the boiler that this would screw into is not straight through into the boiler itself, it's only partially into the wall of the boiler i.e. there is no chance of any water leak or anything like that.


Sorry I should have said minimized the chance of threading the nut. But yes the sensor replaces the existing thermostat in the boiler wall. Since the M4 nut is made from soft brass it is very easy to thread the nut off if too much force is applied - a simple washer can help prevent that. There is no drilling required as it simply goes into the existing location.

Anyway I'm relying on Google Translate atm and it appears he had a company make them but then there was a minimum order quantity.

@Froggystyle - It's Brew and Steam temperature control. The Steam side uses the Alarm output.


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## froggystyle

Does he programe them then like Auber?


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## marcuswar

Ahhh thanks, that makes more sense









...although the nut really doesn't need screwing in tight enough that there is any danger so stripping the thread. Basically a firm finger tight is pretty much all it needs. But for the sake of a washer it's better to be safe than sorry


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## froggystyle

Doh! Just realised you are only talking about the probe not the PID.

Ill get me coat.


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## marcuswar

LoL... I didn't like to say anything









Re the question about "programming like the Auber". I'm not sure exactly what Auber do , but all PIDs require training so that they learn the thermal profile of the thing they are controlling. It's usually just a case of going into the menu and setting it "train" or "Learn" mode and then letting it run through various heat up and cool down cycles. Once it's completed this it then knows exactly when and for how long to apply heat for the desired temperature to be maintained without overshooting.


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## Jim bean

Hi majnu nice find I might contact the seller see if he is making anymore

cheers James


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## MrShades

Hold fire Jim... I'm working on sourcing the parts for the Pt100 sensors / brass M4 fittings etc. I've bought an Auber one, and it's pretty basic...

I think I'll be able to do them at a reasonable price, but sourcing/assembling everything isn't cheap! Give me a week or two and I'll let you know more.


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## majnu

Mrshades there is an ebay one in that link but I think it requires cutting at the thread to fit. If you saw my reply in your thread the DIY ones need welding.


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## MrShades

majnu said:


> Mrshades there is an ebay one in that link but I think it requires cutting at the thread to fit. If you saw my reply in your thread the DIY ones need welding.


I have a cunning plan... I'll let you know once further work is complete!


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## frustin

i'm also interested.


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## domjon1

fascinating thread thanks for your efforts, gonna have a go a this at some point I think


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## Norvin

I mounted a standard chinese thermocouple by soldering it to the body of a standard thermostat.

First you have to remove the plastic from the body, it helps to have a lathe to do this but you can probably use a dremel or perhaps burn it off.

Once you have the bare brass housing, tin it with solder - I had to use plenty of flux and a large soldering iron to get it to take.

Then simply hold the solder bulb on the end of the thermocouple into the molten solder, hold a while then allow to cool. I didn't bother to remove the threaded sleeve first.

It then simply screws into the boiler.


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## frustin

i suppose it's too late for you to show a pic of it in place?


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## Norvin

frustin said:


> i suppose it's too late for you to show a pic of it in place?


No problem.


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## majnu

Does anyone who has a mypin know how to set the alarm function for steam? The rex is well documented and feature rich when it comes to this, but the pamphelet for the mypin isn't as comprehensive.


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## Jim bean

Here you go majnu


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## majnu

Jim bean said:


> Here you go majnu


Saw that video before unfortunately he doesn't go into detail. Thanks anyway.


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## Jim bean

Hi majnu looking at the video I think you would need to set

AL1 to 1.0 (I think this should be AH1 alarm high)

and then the An1 (which sounds like AL1 alarm 1)to your set temp eg 146

cheers James


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## majnu

Al1 which is the alarm value I can set to anything but the An1 only accepts 1-7 iirc as that is for the alarm modes. There is no hidden menu on the mypin as iirc you set that to something to allow your steam ready light to kick in at 146 degrees c and then turn off at your set hysteresis value to allow 2 degree variation.

I don't think the mypin is as good as the rex tbh. Damn those colourful buttons lol

Still I get plenty steam power but the variation for me is as much as 10 degrees.

With the brew side of things are you having to turn on steam for a few seconds to compensate for the intra shop drop? I find that even with a pt100 it doesn't react fast enough to stabilize the brew temperature as we're done brewing within 30 seconds max.

The intrashot stability video on the web must have some kind of preinfusion mod that prevents this.


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## Jim bean

Hi majnu have you got the Alarm working?

the steam alarm won't hold the temp like the SV does it just stops it from going past a set point so when the alarm comes on it will go over a 1/2c then cycle down around 4/5c then starts to rise again

the intrashot stability only drops 1c for a few seconds then goes back to the SV I'm not using the steam blip just using the brew switch as normal

cheers James


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## majnu

Jim bean said:


> Hi majnu have you got the Alarm working?
> 
> the steam alarm won't hold the temp like the SV does it just stops it from going past a set point so when the alarm comes on it will go over a 1/2c then cycle down around 4/5c then starts to rise again
> 
> the intrashot stability only drops 1c for a few seconds then goes back to the SV I'm not using the steam blip just using the brew switch as normal
> 
> cheers James


Ah right. I thought it would hold the Steam temp like with the brew side (which is very accurate within 0.5 a degree). Currently it does what you explained but I was trying to replicate the brew side by having a high and low alarm value instead. Maybe that is an Auber feature? I just need to get or make something that will measure water temp at the brew head so I can either adjust or leave my SV as is.

So your PID doesn't measure too much of a drop when pulling a shot, interesting. Will test mine again tonight without blipping the Steam.


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## Jim bean

Hi majnu the auber PID steam function works in the same way

My offset was around 10c so my alarm comes on @156c on the PID when I had it set to 146c the steam was poor when it would cycle down past 140c I think the best thing about the steam alarm is being able to do bigger jugs of milk although steam power has improved aswell now I've bumped the steam temp up to 156c

Cheers james


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## majnu

I was in a rush today so the boiler didn't have a chance to stabilize properly. Probably only was turned on for 5 mins but the PID did show a temp drop of 4 degrees when pulling a shot without using the steam blip.

I need to look into getting a thermofilter made as the water coming out from the group head is what is important. Have you made yours James?

Additionally my brass group block arrived from espresso services. It weighs 3 times as much as the aluminium one it replaced.


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## Jim bean

Hi majnu Ive used this method for now till I pick up a adjustable flow regulator

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?19777-Homemade-Temperature-Gauge-(Scase-Style)&highlight=Temperature


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## Jim bean

I've tested the intrashot stability again over 25 seconds it says on 104c for around 10 seconds then 103 for a few seconds 102 for a second then back to 104 for the last 4/5 seconds that's not to bad but will try the steam blip

be careful if using the DIY method above second time I've gone to use it the pressure just fired it out with a load of coffee everywhere probably stick a bit of JB weld round where the thermocouple enters the basket

or thinking on use quite a course grind


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## Norvin

Here is an update to my previous post.

The soldered thermocouple connection worked fine with the standard steam thermostat.

However, the steam SSR arrived yesterday so I fitted that, thats when the problems started.

I had set the alarm on the PID to 42, the temperature shot up rapidly, the PID shut off but the temperature kept rising, The solder holding the thermocouple to the thermostat housing had softened or melted and the thermocouple detached. I saw the temperature on the PID going down, but the light on the steam ssr was lit indicating the heating elements were on. This was because the thermocouple was no longer reading the boiler temp. I shut off, but by that time the thermal fuse had blown.

So, a few lessons were learned;

The soldered thermocouple idea is Ok but really a second method of holding the thermocouple is needed. It may well be ok when using a standard steam thermostat but not if playing with higher temps on a PID. My first thought was to use epoxy putty to hold it but as it smells awful when heated its probably not such a good idea, jb weld is probably better here.

The PID alarm control is not sophisticated, there is a large overshoot on initial heating. The initial 42 alarm setting (42+103sv=145c+ overshoot) may be too high for solder. The old steam thermostat tripped off at an indicated 131c then overshot to 135c, so I have set the alarm at 30 (103sv+30=133c), it overshoots to 145c on inital warmup, which is a good starting point for me. Steaming seems Ok but I may raise the temp in future to see if it improves.

Not being happy with the idea that the thermocouple may fall off if the solder softens or melts, I turned up an alloy adapter to mount the thermocouple to the thermostat housing. It is a light press fit in the housing, secured with a bit of JB weld. It is drilled and tapped 1/4" x 20 whitworth, the threaded sleeve is actually 6mm x 1.0 but I didn't have any of these taps and 1/4" whitworth works. The themocouple now screws in with a bit of thermal paste on the end. I'll attach a few pictures to show.

I'm feeling guilty now that I recommended a mod that wasn't tested with a steam PID and have visions of loads of people stuck after hacking their thermostats to pieces, if this was you, let me know and I may turn up an adaptor for you for a small charge.

I've just secured a deal on a Fracino Piccini, so the Classic and a Grinder may be for sale here in a couple of weeks, that is assuming that my post count is sufficient.


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## majnu

Mrshades any update on your rtd?

Norvin there will be a huge overshot on the steam. The Auber from what I've read on gug is the only pid that has a high/low process for steam setting so has more control. But then you're paying £45 for that compared to the £10 mypin, sestos or rex's.


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## Norvin

Thanks manju, it makes a bit more sense now.

Its strange that there seems to be a bigger overshoot than with the standard thermostat, they are both on/off switches.

With the difference in temps between mounting areas of the boiler, huge overshoot and variations in temperature reporting accuracy, there may be a danger of hitting the fuse blow temp of 183c in some setups?


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## majnu

Norvin said:


> Thanks manju, it makes a bit more sense now.
> 
> Its strange that there seems to be a bigger overshoot than with the standard thermostat, they are both on/off switches.
> 
> With the difference in temps between mounting areas of the boiler, huge overshoot and variations in temperature reporting accuracy, there may be a danger of hitting the fuse blow temp of 183c in some setups?


The standard thermostat works when the steam in the boiler is up to temperature (145degC) the steam thermostat opens, and the neon ready light comes on. After this point I have no idea how much the temp drops as the steam does get much weaker after several seconds.

The overshoot imo is not caused by the thermostat but how the Alarm function handles steam.

With James's REX



> My alarm comes on @156c on the PID when I had it set to 146c the steam was poor when it would cycle down past 140c


With DY4's



> When I looked at PID controllers and instructions the only simple instruction set that I found was Auber, especially on alarms. Several of the Auber 1/16 DIN 2 alarm PIDs would not function the way that I needed, to control the temperature between the low (set high) and the high (set 1F lower). This one does and has great instructions. See what you think of the alarm instruction set.
> 
> http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=106


I think this video belongs to a member here:






You can see how much of a temp diff there is from the AL Value 127-130 degrees. It drops to around 121.

When you turn on the steam knob the temperature difference and steam pressure drops much more. I have mine set at 155 and when the steam is fully on it drops to 145 and settles there, until I turn off the steam knob and it climbs back up to 155.

I would like to find some videos of the Auber on how it handles Steam, but haven't come across anything yet. Maybe I will ask Dy4 to post one so I can see the High/Low alarm process in action and the steam it produces.


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## MrShades

majnu said:


> Mrshades any update on your rtd?
> 
> Norvin there will be a huge overshot on the steam. The Auber from what I've read on gug is the only pid that has a high/low process for steam setting so has more control. But then you're paying £45 for that compared to the £10 mypin, sestos or rex's.


Still waiting for a few key parts... Almost there, but in the hands of China Post ;-)


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## Jim bean

Not sure if this is any use it's a TET PID which is a auber clone


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## majnu

Jim bean said:


> Not sure if this is any use it's a TET PID which is a auber clone


I don't think that's the clone. It's the tet 612, basically this one that is:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/-/1997422885.html

This comes to around £23 delivered compared to the Auber

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=106

Which is around £40 delivered.

I'll fire of a message to dF4 tomorrow asking for a video as the way he explains it (or I interpreted it)is that his alarm keeps steam fluctuating at 145-146 degrees. I find that hard to believe personally but if it's true then I'll get him to confirm if that Auber clone has the same functionality. I'll most likely buy one if it is.

edit - tcqbn2006p (ebay search looks like the Auber Clone also)


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## majnu

Jim bean said:


> Hi majnu Ive used this method for now till I pick up a adjustable flow regulator
> 
> http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?19777-Homemade-Temperature-Gauge-(Scase-Style)&highlight=Temperature


Sorry using tapatalk so this post may appear messy.

James i've been reading that the flow regulator filter on the scace is 40 microns.

http://www.home-barista.com/reviews/scace-thermofilter-temperature-device-t453-30.html

It appears the needle valve or whatever the correct term is is big enough to poke 30awg wire through. That's 0.0100"



> I took some 30 AWG (0.010 inches) silver-plated copperweld (copper-clad steel) wire and cleaned the orifice. This size is smaller than the orifice diameter and after that all went back to normal: from 1.25 oz. before the cleaning to the original 2.25 oz immediately afterwards.


http://www.home-barista.com/reviews/scace-thermofilter-temperature-device-t453-20.html

http://www.home-barista.com/reviews/scace-thermofilter-temperature-device-t453-100.html

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

D4F mentioned:



> The hole size is about 0.011" for about 50 ml and 0.009" for about 30 ml/25 seconds


http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/index.php/topic,187.30.html

Therefore do you know if there is a valve that has the correct size for the correct flow rate?

The pics of the scace 2 make me think its bigger than D4Fs method of using guitar string but then it may be an illusion. See the pics in the slideshow.

http://www.espressoparts.com/scace-2-espresso-machine-thermofilter-temperature-pressure-device

However I am reading articles on it's development which started in 2005 so things may have changed since then for the Scace 2 but it's flow rate and volumetric output is more than what was suggested on GUG.



> 4.3 Adjustment of Brew Water Flow Rate:
> 
> Specification:*The flowrate of water through the measurement portafilter shall be measured by a graduated beaker and shall be adjusted so that 75 ml of water is collected in an elapsed time of 25 seconds ±5 seconds. The allowable volumetric tolerance of the beaker graduations shall be ±5% or less.


http://www.home-barista.com/reviews/wbc-procedure-for-measurement-of-brewing-water-temperature-t516.html

Edit - Had a reply from D4F



> I was trying to adjust for flow in a Gaggia specifically because the volume of the boiler is so small. Scace was making a calibration tool and method for setting up machines. Different aim/goal.


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## MooMaa

majnu said:


> *Additional Parts Required but I already had (But all available from Ebay/Maplins) :*
> 
> 24 and 14 AWG Wires (Turnigy or WYH)
> 
> Connectors (Piggyback, Fork and Spade)
> 
> Sleeving
> 
> Thermal Paste
> 
> 100ma Fuse & Holder


Hi

I am looking at sourcing all the parts to do this upgrade but wondered how many of the different connectors I would need and what size and roughly how much wire?


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## Jim bean

Hi MooMaa 24 AWG I used 5amp 14 AWG I used 13amp wire 1m of each gauge should be more than enough for terminal connections this will have most things you need

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Electrical/d190/Crimp+Terminals/sd2712/Electrical+Crimp+Pack/p59926

Just need some blue piggyback connectors for the price you may as well get 20 to allow for mistakes I made plenty lol

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200976021182?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&var=500193912587&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

cheers James


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## MooMaa

Jim bean said:


> Hi MooMaa 24 AWG I used 5amp 14 AWG I used 13amp wire 1m of each gauge should be more than enough for terminal connections this will have most things you need
> 
> http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Electrical/d190/Crimp+Terminals/sd2712/Electrical+Crimp+Pack/p59926
> 
> Just need some blue piggyback connectors for the price you may as well get 20 to allow for mistakes I made plenty lol
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200976021182?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&var=500193912587&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> cheers James


Thank you James for the info and the links

Moo


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## majnu

MooMaa said:


> Hi
> 
> I am looking at sourcing all the parts to do this upgrade but wondered how many of the different connectors I would need and what size and roughly how much wire?


I've added wire length and connector columns to the document. Please note that these are just liberal estimates as I forgot to take precise measurements during installation.

-You don't need to have a 100ma fuse as it's optional but from a safety point of view it's good to have and will blow it's fuse instead of the Gaggia thermal fuse should you accidentally crank the PID to a value exceeding 184 degrees c.

-The red fork connectors on the PID end are also optional. You can connect it using bare wires if you want, but they prevent stray wires and are convenient should you ever need to disconnect the wires from the PID.

-The SSR-DA has jumper wires. One end is bare and that's because I found no other way to join it to the SSR as it was a tight fit.

As James has pointed out it's best getting a few extra connectors incase of mistakes.

HTH


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## MooMaa

majnu said:


> I've added wire length and connector columns to the document. Please note that these are just liberal estimates as I forgot to take precise measurements during installation.
> 
> -You don't need to have a 100ma fuse as it's optional but from a safety point of view it's good to have and will blow it's fuse instead of the Gaggia thermal fuse should you accidentally crank the PID to a value exceeding 184 degrees c.
> 
> -The red fork connectors on the PID end are also optional. You can connect it using bare wires if you want, but they prevent stray wires and are convenient should you ever need to disconnect the wires from the PID.
> 
> -The SSR-DA has jumper wires. One end is bare and that's because I found no other way to join it to the SSR as it was a tight fit.
> 
> As James has pointed out it's best getting a few extra connectors incase of mistakes.
> 
> HTH


Brilliant, thank you for the extra info, it is really useful.


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## majnu

James did you have to use a jumper to get the RTD to work, if so which PID terminals needed to be jumped please?

I'll add the information to the document.

Additionally I've updated the OP to include that RTD's can be purchased from MrShades.

If people want to create a PID box using marcuswar's method in Post 7 and want the front facia to match the Gaggia's brushed aluminium style then you can buy matching vinyl sheets of ebay for a couple of quid and stick it onto the front plastic blanking cap to give an oem look. I'm not sure how the PID is secured to the box though using the plastic retaining clips as there is no lid for easy access. Marcus can you confirm if you used long nosed pliers to secure the clips or did you use another method?

Cheers


----------



## Jim bean

Hi majnu Mrshades RTD comes with 3 wires red wire goes to pin 8 the 2 white wires to pins 9 & 10 so no jumper needed

having used both the k type and RTD I would recommend the RTD if you can but not essential

cheers James


----------



## marcuswar

majnu said:


> James did you have to use a jumper to get the RTD to work, if so which PID terminals needed to be jumped please?
> 
> I'll add the information to the document.
> 
> Additionally I've updated the OP to include that RTD's can be purchased from MrShades.
> 
> If people want to create a PID box using marcuswar's method in Post 7 and want the front facia to match the Gaggia's brushed aluminium style then you can buy matching vinyl sheets of ebay for a couple of quid and stick it onto the front plastic blanking cap to give an oem look. I'm not sure how the PID is secured to the box though using the plastic retaining clips as there is no lid for easy access. Marcus can you confirm if you used long nosed pliers to secure the clips or did you use another method?
> 
> Cheers


I didn't use the clips as there wasn't enough space but the PID was such a tight fit in the fascia that it didn't need securing. I just glued a small pad onto the body of the PID to keep it parallel as it slid inside the aluminium body. I did contemplate maybe using some hot melt glue to secure it to the fascia but decided it didn't need it.


----------



## joe

majnu said:


> Additionally my brass group block arrived from espresso services. It weighs 3 times as much as the aluminium one it replaced.


Could you do a link to this please..I can't seem to find it.


----------



## majnu

joe said:


> Could you do a link to this please..I can't seem to find it.


Pictures of the item is in the thread

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?20040-Gaggia-Classic-Brass-Shower-Plate-Holder-Group-Buy


----------



## joe

majnu said:


> Pictures of the item is in the thread
> 
> http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?20040-Gaggia-Classic-Brass-Shower-Plate-Holder-Group-Buy


Ah!...the group buy...I don't have enough posts to view that thread.

As the poster said that it arrived from Espresso Services I'd assumed it was a commercial purchase.


----------



## majnu

joe said:


> Ah!...the group buy...I don't have enough posts to view that thread.
> 
> As the poster said that it arrived from Espresso Services I'd assumed it was a commercial purchase.


You can buy it from them also if you're after one or just try and get your post count up by participating in discussions (iirc 25 min)

Don't forget to post some pictures up when you've put a PID on your Classic


----------



## joe

majnu said:


> You can buy it from them also if you're after one or just try and get your post count up by participating in discussions (iirc 25 min)
> 
> Don't forget to post some pictures up when you've put a PID on your Classic


Without being able to view the thread I had assumed the the GB block was a specially manufactured part for the GB. Now I know it's the Espresso Services item I can relax.


----------



## joe

majnu said:


> I went for a MyPin TA4 just because of the colourful buttons, but functionality wise they are the same.


Quick question... are the wiring points on the Mypin the same as the Rex C100? do the instructions work for both of them?


----------



## majnu

joe said:


> Quick question... are the wiring points on the Mypin the same as the Rex C100? do the instructions work for both of them?


No the mypin ta4 pin outs are slightly different. The steam alarm settings are handled differently also. I'd go for the REX as it's better value for money.


----------



## MooMaa

Is there any reason all PIDs seem to be mounted on the left side of the classic and is there any reason one could not be mounted on the other side behind the steam knob? (apart from the possibility of pouring water all over it when filling the machine)


----------



## marcuswar

I would guess its simply because the steam knob would obscure your vision and make it harder to press the buttons. There is no mechanical or internal reason why it can't be mounted there though.


----------



## majnu

marcuswar said:


> I would guess its simply because the steam knob would obscure your vision and make it harder to press the buttons. There is no mechanical or internal reason why it can't be mounted there though.


Pretty much this is the reason, look at the one in the for sale section mounted on the right hand side.

Moomaa I didn't think about too but your point about potentially pouring water over the PID but this is a solid case for why it should be located on the left. Has anyone managed to get those £1 project boxes from Maplin?


----------



## MooMaa

majnu said:


> Pretty much this is the reason, look at the one in the for sale section mounted on the right hand side.
> 
> Moomaa I didn't think about too but your point about potentially pouring water over the PID but this is a solid case for why it should be located on the left. Has anyone managed to get those £1 project boxes from Maplin?


Thanx, didn't notice the one in the for sale section. It doesn't look to bad, for my set up it would be best on the left as the right side is against the wall, but I will experiment when all the bits come through the post, my Christmas project


----------



## gingerneil

Awesome thread!! Thanks to everyone. I'm going to buy up the bits and have a go.

Just one question... There are no pictures of the sensor screwing into the block. Is this an easy step??

And the sleeve - does this go on every connection, and do you use heat shrink and a hair dryer?

And can I just use 24 awg throughout? Saves buying two types....


----------



## majnu

gingerneil said:


> And can I just use 24 awg throughout? Saves buying two types....


I highly advise that you don't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

iirc 14awg is rated at 15amps and 24awg at 2amps. If you use a wire that cannot carry the current for load it will most likely melt and cause a fire.


----------



## marcuswar

Yes , manu is correct. The smaller the AWG rating the higher the current rating, so if you're going to use only one wire size it needs to be the smaller AWG rated one i.e. 14AWG. According to this site (http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Wire-Gauge_Ampacity) the max current capacity of 14AWG is 17amps in an enclosed space.


----------



## gingerneil

Ah... I guess that's what I was asking - which to chose if I just use one type to save cost. Thanks for the help - I'll go with the smaller awg.


----------



## MrShades

I wouldn't do that either- you really need both.

Trying to wire up the whole thing with 14awg cable will be v tricky as its thick!

Trying to wire it all with 24 would be too dangerous.

You really need both.


----------



## gingerneil

Lol! OK - I'll stop being so tight!









Do you recommend using heat shrink sleeve for every connector?


----------



## majnu

The connectors don't need heat shrink as they are pre insulated and then crimped down. The wires themselves are teflon or silicone insulated so again there isn't a need to wrap them in heat shrink.

The sleeving was used for the wires exiting the PID box for cosmetic reasons. You can do without it or use whatever is to hand or that you can think of (insulation tape, cloth tape, gooseneck tube, metal braid etc etc )

MrShades's sensor replaces the existing brew theremostat, as I mentioned in the thread it's a fiddle to fit as space is tight but it's doable. Just don't overtighten it. Finger tight and a 1/4 turn on the spanner is more than enough.

HTH


----------



## gingerneil

Excellent - thanks. Bits ordered!


----------



## gingerneil

The only thing I've not ordered is the fuse and holder. I'm not sure what I'm looking for. Ideally something with space connectors. Can anyone point me in the right direction?


----------



## majnu

gingerneil said:


> The only thing I've not ordered is the fuse and holder. I'm not sure what I'm looking for. Ideally something with space connectors. Can anyone point me in the right direction?


Fitting one is optional but here you are:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10PCS-or-1x-0-1A-20mm-5mm-Fast-Blow-F0-1A-Glass-Fuses-Tubes-100mA-5x20mm-A191-/291209642586?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&var=&hash=item43cd72825a

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/In-Line-5x20mm-Wired-Glass-Fuse-Holder-Socket-11A-12V-DC-5A-250V-AC/260941297355?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3D200d5fbe52e44653903cdd9c6b490bb9%26pid%3D100033%26prg%3D20131017132637%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D260941297355


----------



## gingerneil

Cheers. For the sake of a few ££, seems a sensible precaution.


----------



## majnu

gingerneil said:


> Cheers. For the sake of a few ££, seems a sensible precaution.


Don't forget to get a red butt connector if using a fuse. Depending on your project box the fuse should be able to rest in there.


----------



## MrShades

But with the power cable exiting through the case, you probably want to keep the fuse inside the Gaggia and not in the project box.

Another point to note is that if you use a metal project box then you MUST make sure that it's earthed - otherwise you're going to risk frying yourself if there's an issue with any of your 240V cables wandering! This is one reason why I think a plastic project box is a better idea for the PID.


----------



## MooMaa

MrShades said:


> But with the power cable exiting through the case, you probably want to keep the fuse inside the Gaggia and not in the project box.
> 
> Another point to note is that if you use a metal project box then you MUST make sure that it's earthed - otherwise you're going to risk frying yourself if there's an issue with any of your 240V cables wandering! This is one reason why I think a plastic project box is a better idea for the PID.


How would you do this?

Could you screw a wire (awg14?) to the inside of the project box and then piggyback it to the earth wire coming into the back of the classic from the mains?


----------



## gingerneil

The box is the only thing I've not ordered. I'm going to wait until the pid lands and then take it to maplin.

Could you not drill a hole in the side of the Gaggia to screw the box to the case, thus earthing it? But that's maybe a little too irreversible! Or run an earth cable and use a small nut/bolt to screw it to the box, having drilled an appropriate extra hole in that?


----------



## MrShades

Maplins do a black plastic case (KC90X) that is a good fit (but needs a bit of work with a dremel obviously) - and removes any issue of electrocution!

Alternatively, they do the "Aluminium box 11" (LF12N) - which ideally needs earthing, and yes, run a cable from a screw in the side of the box to an earth point inside the Classic. You COULD drill a hole in the side of the case, but everything I do when modding my Classic is completely reversible, and leaves no trace of the mod behind.... unlike a 4mm hold in a nice stainless steel case!


----------



## colm1989

Great thread am hoping to do this to my classic soon, though first step is an OPV adjustment in my quest for a good espresso...


----------



## gingerneil

Thanks for the part numbers. I don't have a dremel so would rather drill and cut plastic than create razor edges in aluminium! Should be easy enough to cut using holes on the corners and a thin hacksaw blade. I think the black looks good too.

I'll be aiming to take lots of pics as I go...!


----------



## majnu

MrShades said:


> But with the power cable exiting through the case, you probably want to keep the fuse inside the Gaggia and not in the project box.
> 
> Another point to note is that if you use a metal project box then you MUST make sure that it's earthed - otherwise you're going to risk frying yourself if there's an issue with any of your 240V cables wandering! This is one reason why I think a plastic project box is a better idea for the PID.


I'll make a ground for the metal box this week and add the info to the document. It totally crossed my mind that one was needed as I've not seen it mentioned whilst reading other PID guides. I'll just piggyback mine to the earth point where the removable lid connects inside the Gaggia.


----------



## gingerneil

Do you have any good guides for setting up the Rex once installed? I've been googling, and there's loads out there - but nothing that i can find that's concise and specific to the classic.


----------



## gingerneil

I bought the aluminium box listed in the original post, and hacked a hole in the front. Unfortunately it's not long enough for the rex - there isn't enough space for the connections on the back, and to get the wires out. I'm going with the square aluminium tubing and end caps instead.


----------



## majnu

gingerneil said:


> I bought the aluminium box listed in the original post, and hacked a hole in the front. Unfortunately it's not long enough for the rex - there isn't enough space for the connections on the back, and to get the wires out. I'm going with the square aluminium tubing and end caps instead.


Crap, sorry. I got mixed up between the MyPin TA4 (which I installed) and the REXC100. I've only just noticed that the REX's length is longer than mine (86mm vs 110mm).


----------



## gingerneil

Even as bought it in maplin, then hacked a hole in the front, I was convincing myself it was big enough. No chance! Rather than the aluminium, I've gone for a 150*80*50 from Amazon, made of plastic. Seems to fit well following some hacksaw work and I won't have to earth it.


----------



## gingerneil

Majnu - sorry for yet another question! But in the doc you say: "*Note: Nothing should connect to either thermostat." *Do I have to actively disconnect anything, or will this just be the case if I wire up as per your instructions ?


----------



## MrShades

If you are using the PID for both brew and steam then you shouldn't have a brew thermostat at all (you'll replace it with a thermocouple or RTD) and the steam (boiler temp when steaming) will be controlled by the same device. Hence the steam stat is redundant.

It depends on how you've wired it up as to whether there should be anything connected to the steam stat - but typically you should be bypassing the steam stat, so the two wires that previously went to it should be connected together at best... You don't need anything connected to the steam stat, and if there are wires on it then you MAY have both the PID and steam stat in the steam circuit (so if you're surprised that boiler temp is still dropping when the steam SSR light is on, then this is the case).

To be completely tidy, you could just remove the steam stat and the (normally white cable) that goes from the brew stat, to the steam stat and then to the switchboard (that you've probably disconnected already).

However - if you are using the normal steam control (and don't use the PID for steam control) then just leave the steam stat and the wires to it as they currently are, and the steam control will be via the steam stat as per usual.

Clearer now? ;-)


----------



## majnu

The pt100 rtd will replace the brew thermostat all you need to do is disconnect the wires before removing it, nothing has to connect to those wires.

Edit ninjad by mrshades


----------



## gingerneil

Great - thanks.

I'll make sure there's nothing going to the steam stat - item 12 on here: http://www.gaggiamanualservice.com/uploads/2/7/3/4/2734199/classic.pdf


----------



## gingerneil

Well.... It's in and working as expected. Huge thanks for the instructions and support throughout the thread. I've not pulled a shot yet as I didn't finish until late. But the temp stabilises well, and the steam power seems improved and acts like it would run until dry!

I've gone through auto tune with a set temp of 80. I lowered it to this in case anything was setup incorrectly. As it all seems fine, should I re-train at the 102 I will be running it at? What about the 140 steam level (alarm set at 102+38)? Or will the training at 80 be enough to cover all temps?

(high temp in the pic as it's cooling after a steam/alarm test!)


----------



## MrShades

Still got skin on your knuckles then???? ;-)

Well done that man... Looking good!


----------



## gingerneil

Lol! Just about... I've got a chunk out of my finger from when I slipped fitting the v3 wand!


----------



## gingerneil

A few days in I thought I'd post a little feedback on the pid.

1. It was incredibly easy to fit. I needed to fiddle a little to get the pt100 in, but everything else was a doddle.

2. I used more crimp connectors than I though I would - but this was mainly down to me fiddling about.

3. I used more ring than fork connectors. I found these fitted to the pid and relays well, and I know they can't work free for any reason.

4. Two crimp connectors fit fine into the SSR terminals, so no need for bare wires.

5. I bought a plastic box from ebay; it was far easier to cut than the aluminum one I bought first (that ended up being the wrong size!)

6. Setting up the temperature and alarm setting were easy

7. Auto tuning completed in about 15 mins

8. The Classic cools very slowly from steam back normal if you don't run any water through the Brew head!

9. 102C seems to work well.

10. I have the steam alarm set to +38 but I'm still experimenting. From what I've found, the steam is more powerful and runs far longer.

11. The pid makes a huge difference to consistency, and a huge difference to the espresso. I'm getting many more layers of flavour from the Rave decaff I'm currently working through, and can't wait to explore others.

12. Did I say it was easy??!? Don't have any reservations having a go. It's cheap, and makes a massive difference.


----------



## NJD1977

Many thanks to Manju and all others in this thread as well as D4F, GatesofDawn and JimBean in other threads/forums and MrShades for selling me one of his RTDs. I was inspired by this project so took it on over the Xmas break. Here is a pic of the finished article. Rather than re-iterating others, I have just posted my key findings and advice below, and am more than happy to try to answer anyone elses questions to help them also attempt this awesome modification.









































*Summary:*

The temperature now stabilises very accurately after about 5-10mins of warm up, and the difference to the taste of the shots is EXTREMELY noticeable. I hadn't expected anything like the level of improvement I got, which I can only presume is due to the original brew thermostat perhaps not bringing the temperature quite high enough. The shots taste slightly hotter and the flavours far more balanced and rich. I am so pleased I attempted this modification as it's already taken my love for my machine to another level and the coffee is so much better.

The modification was tricky at times, and frankly quite a bit more expensive that I was expecting at the outset. It cost me around £50 in total. It could be done cheaper but I was ordering things for quick delivery so paying quite a bit in postage. I also needed to buy quite a few of the parts / connectors / thermal paste / thermal adhesive etc. etc. which others may already have. It's still significantly cheaper than the Auber mod though so I'm still very happy. I thoroughly enjoyed doing it as well..........it was exciting! I am a Chartered Civil Engineer so I do have a strong background in Engineering in general, but not so much in electronic / electrical engineering - I had to revisit my knowledge from School / Uni days to figure out some of the bits. I wanted to really understand what the circuits were doing rather than blindly following a step-by-step guide.

*Key Points I discovered:*

*
*


I used the link in the original post to the REX C-100 on ebay, but unfortunately the seller sent a PID with a relay ouput rather than SSR output. From reading on many forums this seems to be a common error by ebay sellers, with many claiming it very difficult to find an actual SSR output REX C-100 for sale on ebay. Rather than dispute and return the unit, I found the youtube video for removing the internal relay and adding jumper wires, so I went down that route.......all worked ok and photos are below showing the original relay removed and the jumper wires installed and soldered up.

I originally ordered the wrong SSR for the steam function - there didn't appear to be any UK stock AA SSR's on ebay, and I ordered a DA SSR in error due to my own lack of patience! I ordered an AA SSR via Amazon for around £8.50 but if you can wait for the slowboat from China they are around £3 on ebay.

The neutral connection to my IEC power supply point at the rear of my gaggia was actually the top pin not the bottom pin as described in the original post. I'm not sure if this was just my Gaggia or whether it's a mistake in the original instructions but it had ben flummoxed for a while until I figured that out.

I bought a PT100 RTD from MrShades which seemed very well put together and he sent it very quickly for £15. The only problem was that it's close to impossible to screw this into the boiler wall with large hands. I tried for an hour and eventually got it to start turning in, and as I thought I had finally cracked it, the RTD sensor worked free from the brass stand-off and disconnected. For plan B I bought some thermally conductive adhesive from ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251768056249?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT and screwed the stand off in seperate to the sensor then filled the brass stand off with adhesive and plunged the sensor into the stand off. I then held it in place with tape for a while whilst it cured (4-5hrs). Before I did this, I fired up the REX and calibrated the sensor against boiling water and found it to be reading about 2.2deg lower than it should have been. I therefore corrected this in the SC setting of the REX. Thankfully it all works fine.

The case is from Maplin - I took the REX down to a store and this was the smallest case I could comfortably fit the unit in - it's larger that I would have liked but it just wouldn't fit in anything smaller. The gloss black looks ok against the gloss black of the drip tray and steam knob.

I would thoroughly recommend just livening up the REX with the RTD attached first before attempting the full mod. Play around with a pan of boiling water and the sensor and make the necessary adjustments to the parameters and set points BEFORE you wire it all into the Gaggia.

I have set the brew set point to 102degC to account for the temperature offset between boiler casing and water of approx 9degC. The AL1 setting for the steam alarm is set to +43degC.

The settings in the REX are critical to the unit operating correctly. In particular SL07 must be set to 0001 for the alarm relay output to operate as normally closed rather than normally open. Most other settings can be found from searching this and other forums. I'm happy to help answer any questions about the REX set up if anyone needs advice.


Once again - thanks to everyone in this thread, and I'd recommend anyone to have a go!

By the way - if you're wondering about the Bodum Bistro grinder in the photo - that's also modded to bring the burrs closer together to enable it to grind down to powder. 2 Mod's done, what's next!?........

Edit: one other point is pins 4 and 5 from the Rex needed to be reversed from the original instructions for me to get the DA SSR to work.


----------



## MrShades

A good review of the PID mod experience - thanks for that!

It did surprise me how quickly the cost of a project that revolves around an "only about a tenner" PID increases... as I reckon it cost me at least £50 if not more, once I'd purchased the odd fool etc as well.

Interesting to see that you struggled with the pt00 install... It's not easy with anything other than small hands and it helps to keep the wire wrapped up (or to wrap it up) in a tight bundle.

I've always advocated removing the boiler from the chassis to fit it - as it makes the job around 1 million times quicker, easier and less painful!

The silicone thermal adhesive that you used is exactly what is used in the manufacture of the sensor - though the end (the actual sensor) has thermal paste on it rather than adhesive - as the paste is a much better thermal conductor than the adhesive.

You may find that the temp reading of the boiling water was correct - it depends on your altitude.


----------



## MooMaa

Hi,

in the instructions on page 1 it says :- *If using the 3 wire RTD PT100 from MrShades: **Red wire connects to PID terminal 8. White wires to PID terminals 9 & 10. M*y RTD PT100 from MrShades has two red wires and one white wire, do I therefore connect the white wire to terminal 8 and the two red wires to terminals 9 and 10?


----------



## NJD1977

Yep, that's what I did and it works fine.


----------



## MooMaa

Cheers, i will try finishing install tomorrow.


----------



## MooMaa

Hi, HELP.

Well I installed everything as per instructions but I must have done something wrong.

When I turn it on the water just keeps heating up and up and up, I have a k type probe and thermometer taped to the outside of the boiler so I can see the temp going to 140+ and I then turn the machine off.

When I turn the machine on the PID says I have a K type input,, How do I change this as ?

Also the PV reading on the PID isnt going up.

I did set the SV to 80C.

Any idea what I have done wrong? I will recheck the wiring when I get home tonight, but I am pretty sure I did it right.


----------



## NJD1977

I'm assuming because you asked about Mr Shades PT RTD above that you actually have that rather than K type probe as you say in your latest post?

If that's the case, that's why the REX (assuming you do have a REX) isn't reading the temperature of the probe. The Rex is set for K type as standard. To alter it to a PT100 input hold down SET for 5 seconds until SL1 appears, now navigate to the relevant numbers and change the code to the correct one to represent a PT100 - you will need to refer to your instruction manual that came with your REX to find the correct code as I think all are different. Mine was 1000 for PT-100 and the standard K type uses 0000. If yours is the same then change SL1 from 0000 to 1000 and then hold down SET again. Power off and on again and see if that starts to read the Pv value changing.


----------



## MooMaa

Cheers,

I managed to decipher a bit of the Chinese instructions so I could change the LCY setting so I could then enter the setup mode allowing me to find SL1 an indeed my Pt100 is 1000. just now need to figure out the rest of the settings and how to do the auto tune.


----------



## MooMaa

what settings do I need to set on the PID and what values?

say it on a thread but cant find it anymore.


----------



## NJD1977

MooMaa said:


> what settings do I need to set on the PID and what values?
> 
> say it on a thread but cant find it anymore.


If I remember correctly the settings I had to adjust were:

SC - I set this to +2.2degC because my sensor was reading 2.2degC low in boiling water.

SL7 must be set to 0001 for the steam alarm relay to function correctly.

r (proportional cycle time) set to to 1 second.

Then I set AL1 to +43degC for the steam cut off temperature and my setpoint Sv to 102degC

Once all that's done, set ARu to 0001 and hold down SET to make it start running auto-tune which only took around 3-4 mins.


----------



## MooMaa

NJD1977 said:


> If I remember correctly the settings I had to adjust were:
> 
> SC - I set this to +2.2degC because my sensor was reading 2.2degC low in boiling water.
> 
> SL7 must be set to 0001 for the steam alarm relay to function correctly.
> 
> r (proportional cycle time) set to to 1 second.
> 
> Then I set AL1 to +43degC for the steam cut off temperature and my setpoint Sv to 102degC
> 
> Once all that's done, set ARu to 0001 and hold down SET to make it start running auto-tune which only took around 3-4 mins.


Thanks for help, it appears to be working ok. Will try a coffee in the morning


----------



## Krax

NJD1977 said:


> Many thanks to Manju and all others in this thread as well as D4F, GatesofDawn and JimBean in other threads/forums and MrShades for selling me one of his RTDs. I was inspired by this project so took it on over the Xmas break. Here is a pic of the finished article. Rather than re-iterating others, I have just posted my key findings and advice below, and am more than happy to try to answer anyone elses questions to help them also attempt this awesome modification.
> 
> 
> I have set the brew set point to 102degC to account for the temperature offset between boiler casing and water of approx 9degC. The AL1 setting for the steam alarm is set to +43degC
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> How did you establish a 9ºC offset was required? I have temperature mapped the brew head on my classic after fitting a PID with one of MrShades marvellous PT100s and the temperature difference between the raw PID display and initial discharge water is nearer 4ºC on my setup. Now controlling at a setting of 93ºC with a 3.5ºC offset, the shots are not sour and do not get the same bitterness which is evident when I turn the control temperature up, which has the same effect as increasing the offset.
> 
> Uncalibrated thermocouples are quite inaccurate and subject to drift unless the cold junction compensation is especially good, so may have contributed to the 8ºC offset which seems to have become the norm. PT100s sensors are far more accurate and stable so I wonder whether anyone else has directly compared these temperatures since upgrading and found the same as me?
> 
> Attached is the graph I originally posted showing the above as well as the significant recovery time required.Shot temperature recovery.pdf


----------



## NJD1977

I just went off a few other peoples advice that 102/103deg C set point seemed to be about right. It could be a case of the blind leading the blind though and I have noticed that the longer I leave the machine to stabilize the hotter and more bitter the shots are, so I suspect that eventually the boiler casing and water stabilize to the same real temperature. I am going to try lowering the set point a bit and checking the effect on the shots.


----------



## Krax

NJD1977 said:


> I have noticed that the longer I leave the machine to stabilize the hotter and more bitter the shots are, so I suspect that eventually the boiler casing and water stabilize to the same real temperature. I am going to try lowering the set point a bit and checking the effect on the shots.


This is the same as I found. With light roasts I found I lost the bitterness with an RTD temperature below 98ºC (=


----------



## NJD1977

Last week I was using some medium dark roasted monsoon malabar set at 102deg and the shots were sublimely good. This week though I've tried some new yellow bourbon beans that I've not had before which seem a little lighter in the roast and so far every shot has been on the bitter side. Not terribly unpleasant but certainly not great. I will give your temperature of 98deg a go and report back.


----------



## matthew2456

I;ve ordered the REX on the front page of here from ebay, has anyone else had one with the incorrect relays?


----------



## qpop

Will this mod work with a Gaggia Coffee Deluxe? I guess the wiring is similar?


----------



## NJD1977

matthew2456 said:


> I;ve ordered the REX on the front page of here from ebay, has anyone else had one with the incorrect relays?


I did write to the seller to warn him not to make this mistake in the future but whether or not he understood me is doubtful. His English seemed poor and I guess he doesn't even understand really what the unit does let alone what the correct output should be. The mod is easy to though if you have a soldering iron, solder and some wick.


----------



## NJD1977

qpop said:


> Will this mod work with a Gaggia Coffee Deluxe? I guess the wiring is similar?


Its highly likely it will work but the wiring and colors etc may be slightly different.


----------



## NJD1977

Well I tried a slightly lower temperature on my PID the last couple of days. I tried 98degC first and although this removed all traces of bitterness there were some *very* slight sour tones now. I tried 99degC today and it was very much improved, almost no sourness and definitely no bitterness. I find it a little bizarre that such small changes in brew temperature can affect the taste so much, but there's definitely a noticeable difference. I suspect the temperature may need "dialling in" to different beans in a similar way to a grinder is, but for now at least I know that 99degC suits my current beans and slightly higher at 101-102 seems to suit a darker roasted Monsoon Malabar.

One thing that is definitely apparent though is the required warm up time for the gaggia. I've experimented a bit and I now think anything short of 15minutes warm up is going to result in unpredictability for the shot.


----------



## marcuswar

qpop said:


> Will this mod work with a Gaggia Coffee Deluxe? I guess the wiring is similar?


Yes, you can use a PID on a Gaggia Coffee Deluxe, I've done it myself. The wiring on the deluxe is pretty much the same as a Classic, although the manual front switch is slightly different.


----------



## marcuswar

NJD1977 said:


> I did write to the seller to warn him not to make this mistake in the future but whether or not he understood me is doubtful. His English seemed poor and I guess he doesn't even understand really what the unit does let alone what the correct output should be. The mod is easy to though if you have a soldering iron, solder and some wick.


I had the same issue when I bought my PID off eBay about a year ago so doesn't sound like things have changed very much.

When I PID'd mine, I originally didn't remove the relays but just jumpered their output from the PID'd power rail and used this to drive the SSR,. In the end the relay clicking started to annoy me so I did end up opening it up again and removing the relays. One thing to be careful of is the small ribbon cable joining the internal circuit boards together. Make sure you support these adequately while manipulating the board, I'd recommend taping them to something solid. I didn't and managed to snap a few of the wires due to flexing them. In the end I did manage to resolder it all but it was real pain and took me over an hour to get it all unsoldered and resoldered.


----------



## NJD1977

I managed to unsolder the relay and solder in the jumper wires without taking the 2 boards out of their clips. I was wary of unclipping them because the ribbon did look quite fragile, and it really wasn't difficult just working on the boards clipped into the display unit in the front.

I can imagine the relay clicking would be very annoying. The SSR literally flicks on and off a couple of times a second at times and hearing a click every time would be fairly irritating. Definitely seems best to just remove it, it only takes 5 minutes with the right kit.


----------



## gingerneil

Sounds like you've resolved it ok. I was quite surprised when mine came without the relay!


----------



## marcuswar

NJD1977 said:


> I managed to unsolder the relay and solder in the jumper wires without taking the 2 boards out of their clips. I was wary of unclipping them because the ribbon did look quite fragile, and it really wasn't difficult just working on the boards clipped into the display unit in the front.
> 
> I can imagine the relay clicking would be very annoying. The SSR literally flicks on and off a couple of times a second at times and hearing a click every time would be fairly irritating. Definitely seems best to just remove it, it only takes 5 minutes with the right kit.


Good tip about leaving them clipped to the display front as those ribbon cables are relatively easy to snap when you're man handling them. I guess keeping them connected also helps with positioning the board for unsoldering.. sometimes you feel like you need 3 hands doing this stuff!

The relay clicking was Ok at first as it was an audible signal that things where happening but once you start to trust the device it just gets mildly irksome.


----------



## Chockymonster

I'm trying to work through this with a Sestos PID at the moment but can't work out some of the pin translations at the PID end. Is anyone able to translate the Rex pins to the Sestos ones??


----------



## MrShades

Post a pic of the Sestos pin diagram and I'll see what I can do


----------



## Chockymonster

Here's the pin out on the side of the sestos.

My thoughts are:

From the PID

terminal 10 to on-off switch

Terminal 9 to neutral

Terminal 11 loop to terminal 9

Terminal 12 to Terminal 4 on 40a AA SSR

Terminal 8 to Terminal 3 on 40a DA SSR

Terminal 6 to Terminal 4 on 40a DA SSR

Terminal 5 4 & 3 for the RTD

From SSR AA

Terminal 3 to middle pin steam switch

Terminal 2 to Piggyback to top steam switch pin

Terminal 1 to Piggyback to brew switch bottom pin

From SSR DA

Terminal 1 to Terminal 1 on SSR AA

Terminal 2 to Terminal 2 on SSR AA

The SSR wiring is confusing me!


----------



## NJD1977

Chockymonster said:


> View attachment 11330
> Here's the pin out on the side of the sestos.
> 
> My thoughts are:
> 
> From the PID
> 
> terminal 10 to on-off switch
> 
> Terminal 9 to neutral
> 
> Terminal *1* *to Bottom pin of on/off switch (i.e. Neutral)*
> 
> Terminal *12* to Terminal 4 on 40a AA SSR
> 
> Terminal 8 to Terminal 3 on 40a DA SSR *(Terminal 6 and 8 may need reversing if your SSR DA doesn't fire up due to polarity - mine didn't and I had to reverse the connections)*
> 
> Terminal 6 to Terminal 4 on 40a DA SSR
> 
> Terminal 5 4 & 3 for the RTD *(agreed and I think the 2 similar coloured wires would go to 3 & 4, and the disimilar wire would go to 5)*
> 
> From SSR AA
> 
> Terminal 3 to middle pin steam switch
> 
> Terminal 2 to Piggyback to top steam switch pin
> 
> Terminal 1 to Piggyback to brew switch bottom pin
> 
> From SSR DA
> 
> Terminal 1 to Terminal 1 on SSR AA
> 
> Terminal 2 to Terminal 2 on SSR AA
> 
> The SSR wiring is confusing me!


My thoughts on corrections are in bold above, but it would be worthwhile MrShades checking and verifying as well.

*Edited - to correct.*


----------



## Chockymonster

Terminals 9 and 10 shouldn't matter for polarity as it's AC, but 6 and 8 need to be the correct way round.

The brew stuff I get, it's the steam that's confusing me. If I'm connecting pin 1 to pin 4 of the AA SSR doesn't that mean it's always running the steam stat until the alarm goes off?


----------



## NJD1977

Chockymonster said:


> Terminals 9 and 10 shouldn't matter for polarity as it's AC, but 6 and 8 need to be the correct way round.
> 
> The brew stuff I get, it's the steam that's confusing me. If I'm connecting pin 1 to pin 4 of the AA SSR doesn't that mean it's always running the steam stat until the alarm goes off?


This confused me for a while as well, but Pin 3 on the AA SSR only gets a link to neutral when you switch the steam switch down, so in normal brew mode, the AA SSR is only receiving the AL1 input but the circuit isn't being closed because Pin 3 isn't closed to neutral via the steam switch. In short, the SSR AA will only ever work when both AL1 output AND the steam switch is flicked down.

Edit - I may have my live's and neutrals mixed up there, but hopefully you get the picture - a circuit is not completed via pins 3 and 4 on the AA SSR until the steam switch is flicked down.


----------



## NJD1977

I have just corrected my above post - I believe that Pin 1 needs to connect to neutral (the bottom pin of the on/off switch on the Gaggia) and Pin 12 needs to connect to Terminal 4 of the SSR AA.

Now when the Steam switch is flicked down a circuit is created through terminals 3 and 4 of the SSR AA through AL1 and down to neutral UNTIL AL1 is activated at which point the circuit through terminals 3 and 4 of the SSR AA is broken and the supply to the boiler is cut off.


----------



## Chockymonster

That was in english







Thanks!


----------



## Chockymonster

So I'm using the AL circuit to turn the boiler off, not turn it on when the temp drops?


----------



## NJD1977

Chockymonster said:


> So I'm using the AL circuit to turn the boiler off, not turn it on when the temp drops?


Correct. When you flick the steam switch the heating elements will be energised and the boiler will heat up to around 145degC (or whatever you set the AL1 temperature to be) - as soon as that Alarm condition is reached the circuit will be broken preventing the elements heating the boiler any further. Once the temperature drops a bit, the Alarm condition will reset and power will be restored to the elements - this cycle repeats indefinitely until you switch steam mode off.


----------



## Chockymonster

NJD1977 said:


> Correct. When you flick the steam switch the heating elements will be energised and the boiler will heat up to around 145degC (or whatever you set the AL1 temperature to be) - as soon as that Alarm condition is reached the circuit will be broken preventing the elements heating the boiler any further. Once the temperature drops a bit, the Alarm condition will reset and power will be restored to the elements - this cycle repeats indefinitely until you switch steam mode off.


Great, thanks. What's the worst that can happen


----------



## NJD1977

Keep an eye on the temperature as it rises and if you don't hear the AL1 relay click at your AL1 temperature get ready to pull the plug before you blow the thermal fuse. I think the thermal fuse blows at around 175degC.


----------



## JVDAS

Hello all many thanks to all for the invaluable and generous information for a pid Virgin. Am also following with interest and considering a rex or sestos for steam and brew together with mr shades rtc. Have just joined the forum and am about to embark on a nice coffee journey having given up the cigs. Interested to learn about ease of programmability of the sestos which I hear is notoriously lacking in documentation. Am passably competent with a soldering iron but would prefer not to have to desolder a mistakenly shipped rex.

anyway glad to be here and have already had a warm friendly welcome from gingerneil who pointed me to this thread. UK sourcing of bits most helpful in this undertaking so many thanks to manju the op and Jim bean whose posts I have read with much interest both on here and GUG.

Also am I correct in assuming that the second ssr gingerneil said I should have would be a aa / da one if not using skene method?


----------



## NJD1977

Not sure about the Sestos, the Rex isn't exactly full of information on programming either though. Don't be intimidated by the Rex modification (if you have to do it) to remove the relay. It's very quick and easy. In fact it's probably one of the easiest bits of the whole project.


----------



## JVDAS

Thank you njd.. Will go hunting imminently on the bay or amazon. Just to be clear my above post re non skene 2nd ssr was in reference to the sestos d1s-vr-220. I take it the implementation would be the same for the rex which the OP has recommended over the mypin and which you and a few others have reported success. I plan to use an inline fuse as well.

I suppose it it won't kill me to desolder if it was required as I've seen a helpful vid on YouTube a few days ago when I started exploring this mod for my classic.


----------



## NJD1977

JVDAS said:


> Thank you njd.. Will go hunting imminently on the bay or amazon. Just to be clear my above post re non skene 2nd ssr was in reference to the sestos d1s-vr-220. I take it the implementation would be the same for the rex which the OP has recommended over the mypin and which you and a few others have reported success. I plan to use an inline fuse as well.
> 
> I suppose it it won't kill me to desolder if it was required as I've seen a helpful vid on YouTube a few days ago when I started exploring this mod for my classic.


I'm not familiar with the "skene" method, so I can't say, but for the main OP and the way I did it, the SSR for the steam function needs to be an AA SSR rather than DA as it's taking an AC input to it rather than a DC input. Just be aware that it's hard to get hold of AA SSR's on ebay quickly (you can get DA ones quickly but not AA for some reason). If you want an AA quickly, I'd suggest Amazon (they're around £10 though).


----------



## JVDAS

Many thanks again NJ! With any luck Gingerneil would have that AA ssr 40a so I await his response with baited breath. I think it is quite clear that 2 ssrs do fit in the classic giving regard to careful positioning around filling funnel / spout so I will not go the skene route and try to replicate what you guys have done here. Ie 1 pid, pt100 rtd, da ssr and aa ssr. Cheers again


----------



## NJD1977

Yeah the 2 SSR's definitely fit - I pushed the one near the filler spout over as far to the side as it would go, and the filler spout fits in fine. This photo was work in progress - when I refitted the filler spout the right hand SSR clashed with it, so I moved it as far over to the right as it would go.


----------



## amaferanga

Does anyone have a link to a suitable rex c100? I bought the one linked to in the OP (ebay seller keuntl), but it has no alarm function (screws at output 6 and 7 aren't there). The seller says that all theirs are the same and all the other eBay sellers seem to have the same stock pictures. I can't find a mypin ta4 SRR either (only the ta4 SNR which presumably is no good).

Sorry for the grumbly first post on the forum, but I've got everything ready to do the pid modification on my gaggia, but I can't find the right temp controller and it's beginning to bug me!


----------



## NJD1977

I'm afraid my seller on ebay no longer sells them. I got a relay output one delivered (unintentionally) and converted it to remove the relay. Perhaps this might be your best option.

It seems clear to me that the last slowboat from China to the UK stockists must have removed all of the Alarm outputs on the SSR PIDs.


----------



## NJD1977

Have you thought about a SESTOS?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sestos-Digital-Temperature-Controller-Sensor/dp/B00HVA23CK/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1429101433&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=myPin+PID

I can't vouch for this meeting your needs, but there's a fair chance it will.


----------



## gingerneil

Bummer. I bought this one, from that seller, and it contained the correct output to drive the external SSR for both steam and brew.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/REX-C100-Smart-Temperature-Controller-Instrument-40A-SSR-K-Thermocouple-Probe-/271615893521?hash=item3f3d91a011

They are quite easy to mod to remove the relay....


----------



## amaferanga

Thanks for the suggestions. It'd be easy if the eBay sellers just put pictures of the actual devices they're selling instead of stock pictures. I suspect all the UK sellers have the same ones now, with no alarm output.

I'm using the guide in this thread so hoping to stick with a Rex.


----------



## Rhys

amaferanga said:


> Thanks for the suggestions. It'd be easy if the eBay sellers just put pictures of the actual devices they're selling instead of stock pictures. I suspect all the UK sellers have the same ones now, with no alarm output.
> 
> I'm using the guide in this thread so hoping to stick with a Rex.


You'll maybe find they are drop-shipping and don't actually see the items themselves in which case they just use a stock photo.


----------



## amaferanga

Since what I've got will work for brew only PID I think I'll just do that for now and hope that someone starts selling the Rex with alarm output sometime soon.


----------



## amaferanga

I must be missing something here still! Are the probes that come with the Rex c100 all too big? The one I've got is 4.5mm so considerably bigger than the hole. Do I need to now buy the rtd sensor as well? I thought this was optional. Anyway, I'd buy one from MrShades on here, but I'm still a post short to use pm....


----------



## NJD1977

Yeah the sensors that come with those kits are the wrong thread type to screw into the boiler casing on the Classic. Mr Shades ones are drilled out machine screws of the correct size to fit the gaggia classic, with the sensor embedded in the screw using thermal adhesive.


----------



## amaferanga

Ah ok, thanks. I see now from reading thee thread from the start again that that's brought up so I should have known.

Well I've got my 5 posts now to pm so I'll get in touch with Mrshades.


----------



## amaferanga

Can someone please point me towards a guide for setting up the mypin ta4? Google hasn't returned a nice guide for Gaggia pid mods so I'm a bit stumped.

Thanks for any help (again).


----------



## SmnByt

Once you get your RTD from Mr shades, Watch this,






Then run Autotune and see how stable it is, if not you can adjust the variables shown in the Utube video


----------



## amaferanga

Thanks for that, very useful.

But I'm having issues with the steam function still. Brew works fine, but nothing happens when I flick the steam switch. The red light on the SSR 40 AA never comes on. I'm still stumped (steam works fine if I reconnect the original steam thermostat - shoots up to 150 degrees then back down to 120 before the boiler kicks in again though).


----------



## NJD1977

amaferanga said:


> Thanks for that, very useful.
> 
> But I'm having issues with the steam function still. Brew works fine, but nothing happens when I flick the steam switch. The red light on the SSR 40 AA never comes on. I'm still stumped (steam works fine if I reconnect the original steam thermostat - shoots up to 150 degrees then back down to 120 before the boiler kicks in again though).


Are the alarm outputs on the mypin 12v or 240v? On the Rex they are 240v hence using an AA SSR. If they are only 12v on the mypin you would need a DA SSR.

I'm only guessing. I don't know the mypin unit at all.


----------



## amaferanga

I'm not sure on that. The instructions I have (Ta4 SNR) under alarm output specifications lists both AC and DC values: AC 250V DC 30V.


----------



## NJD1977

In that case are you connected to the 250v AC alarm outputs? If you're not, the AA SSR wont trigger on.

Or is there a setting from within the mypin to select 250v output at the alarm points?


----------



## amaferanga

Outputs 5 and 6 are the alarm outputs for the Ta4 SNR. One of these is going to AA terminal 4, the other to the bottom pin at the on/off switch.


----------



## amaferanga

Ignore all that. It's the alarm setting that was wrong. It works with alm1 set to PV low. I misunderstood what the alarms meant obviously. The documentation suggests there's only an alm2 output on the pid, but it's clearly alm1 that functions.

All seems to be working now as expected. Phew.


----------



## SmnByt

amaferanga said:


> Ignore all that. It's the alarm setting that was wrong. It works with alm1 set to PV low. I misunderstood what the alarms meant obviously. The documentation suggests there's only an alm2 output on the pid, but it's clearly alm1 that functions.
> 
> All seems to be working now as expected. Phew.


What temp have you got your steam set to on ALM1?


----------



## amaferanga

150 degrees.


----------



## andy_mg2000

Hi

I'm planning to fit a pid to my classic following these instructions. Given that most SSR rex-c100's now seem to be missing the alarm output am I correct in understanding that if I buy the relay version with the output present, this will still function as long as I remove the relay and bridge the connections (I've seen the video for this)?

Was going to order this which seems to have all pins present:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291406517502

Is this OK? Obviously I need to get the relay and temp probe separately.

Thank you


----------



## NJD1977

It seems to be correct, but the description also refers to a 12v voltage pulse output suitable for SSR as well as a relay output at 250v.

I suspect a lot of these sellers don't really have a clue what they're selling, and the Chinese middle-men probably confuse things a lot as well.

For the cost of it, I'd just buy it and hope for the best.


----------



## andy_mg2000

Thank you. The picture shows the relay version and all pins are present. I know this isn't conclusive since it seems a lot are using stock photos.It also seems that most SSR versions are bundled with a separate relay in the sale. This one isn't and it seems reasonably consistent that those on ebay which are not bundled mostly have the image of the relay version. Again, maybe I am making big assumptions here.

I have emailed the seller to ask them to confirm but whether they will understand is another matter. I hope they do as I don't want to wait ~1 month to find it is the wrong one.


----------



## andy_mg2000

Had a reply back from the ebay seller. Apparently "It's the same as described". Not really the conclusive answer I was looking for considering I asked if it is the relay or SSR version. I've ordered anyway. The image shows all pins present and the description says it has the alarm output. If it doesn't then I will contact them, hopefully for a refund since it is not as described. Whether it is the SSR or relay version doesn't matter as I can always modify it.

Thanks for your help.


----------



## maths15

Hi

One question, what size do the connectors need to be?

Thanks


----------



## NJD1977

You'll need a mix of red and blue connectors. Mostly red but you will need a few blues for the heavier gauge wires.


----------



## maths15

NJD1977 said:


> You'll need a mix of red and blue connectors. Mostly red but you will need a few blues for the heavier gauge wires.


Thanks, but looking on eBay they come in various sizes. Or I'm I being thick?


----------



## NJD1977

Red are the smallest blue mid size and yellow the largest. Just search for crimp connectors on eBay or maplin and you'll see their standard sizes are all coloured according to this logic.


----------



## timmyjj21

Thanks for this write up. It's the nicest one I've found and has made me feel a lot more confident about installing a PID myself.

Ive ripped apart and fixed a number of Gaggia Classics and this is the next natural step!

This one seems to come with the PID and SSR for a similar price to buying separately, plus it's UK stock.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271615893521?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## andy_mg2000

timmyjj21 said:


> Thanks for this write up. It's the nicest one I've found and has made me feel a lot more confident about installing a PID myself.
> 
> Ive ripped apart and fixed a number of Gaggia Classics and this is the next natural step!
> 
> This one seems to come with the PID and SSR for a similar price to buying separately, plus it's UK stock.
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271615893521?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


When I queried this seller about the missing alarm outputs he cancelled my order. I think you well find they won't be present. I ordered a relay version that I posted the link for earlier. Hopefully this has all pins and I can modify it to the SSR version. Not arrived yet thought and don't expect it for a few more weeks.


----------



## andy_mg2000

My relay version of the REX-C100 just arrived. Wasn't expecting this quick as only ordered on 5th May. It has all the outputs present so looking good. Will have to remove the relay and bridge the points but that's fine.

I won't be fitting it for a while to confirm it's all working but if anyone else is interested the one I ordered was from here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291406517502


----------



## timmyjj21

Thanks for the feedback! I just ordered this one yesterday simply so I could get one that was different and have more known options available:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171435333719?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I agree that most of the ones on ebay are described incorrectly and I have had several emails with a few sellers trying to get information. These usually resulted in a 'pictures are correct' answer.

I have mine being sent to Australia and then sent via 'alternate means' thinking it would be quicker (it usually is!), but damn you had speedy delivery!


----------



## Kai

I am confusing myself with what parts I will need if I want to control both the brew and steam if I plan on using the Mr Shades Pt100

I " think" I need a Rex C100 and two relays , am I right that I do not require the thermocouple ?

And just to confirm , the relays would be 2x SSR 40 A's as shown previously

Or am I missing something??


----------



## gingerneil

It's all in the Google doc on the very first post. You need the thermocouple, and two relays - an AA and a DA


----------



## NJD1977

You don't need the thermocouple if you are using one of Mr Shades PT-100s.


----------



## Kai

Cheers guys , it was just confirmation I needed as the caffeine hasn't kicked in yet


----------



## gingerneil

When I said you need the thermocouple, I meant the temp probe from MrShades. I just ditched the probe that came with the pid


----------



## thirteeneast

Hi don't know if its any good but these seem to state whether they are ssr or relay

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Digital-PID-Temperature-controller-max-40A-SSR-K-thermocouple-probe/678120228.html

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Quality-2m-High-Temperature-0-500-Degree-PT2-Thread-RTD-50mm-Probe-Temp-Sensor-NG4S/2047106010.html

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1pcs-Soild-State-Relay-SSR-40-AA-AC-AC-40A-250V-80-250VAC-24-380VAC/695201725.html

Are they any good if the spec is as it states?

It does seem Ebay descriptions even contradict themselves between the photos and text.

thanks in advance.


----------



## NJD1977

The PID and relays look fine but the probe is no good for mounting into the boiler wall of the classic, that's why you're better getting a sensor from MrShades so that it screws straight in with the correct thread.


----------



## thirteeneast

Many thanks for the prompt answer.


----------



## thirteeneast01

Looks like I'll be ordering some bits in the morning and then watching Chinese tracking for weeks lol.


----------



## thirteeneast01

Am I right thinking in preference the PID should be SSR?


----------



## NJD1977

Yes SSR output rather than relay output.


----------



## thirteeneast01

Many thanks again ;-)


----------



## andy_mg2000

Fitted this today and appears to be working correctly. Not had too much time to experiment and it's a bit late in the day to drink too many more coffees! Thank you for the guide and the support, great stuff.

One thing I wanted to check from the guide is that terminal 1 of the REX C100 it says to use 14 awg and terminal 2 says 24 awg. These are the positive and negative supplies to the controller. Should the not be both the same awg? Struck me as a little odd but then I am no electrician.


----------



## Kai

andy_mg2000 said:


> Fitted this today and appears to be working correctly. Not had too much time to experiment and it's a bit late in the day to drink too many more coffees! Thank you for the guide and the support, great stuff.
> 
> One thing I wanted to check from the guide is that terminal 1 of the REX C100 it says to use 14 awg and terminal 2 says 24 awg. These are the positive and negative supplies to the controller. Should the not be both the same awg? Struck me as a little odd but then I am no electrician.


Can you confirm the one you ordered was all ok apart from having to remove the relays and bridge the connections , I'm just about to order the same PID so want to ensure no hidden surprises


----------



## andy_mg2000

Kai said:


> Can you confirm the one you ordered was all ok apart from having to remove the relays and bridge the connections , I'm just about to order the same PID so want to ensure no hidden surprises


Yeah no problems with it. Pretty easy to remove the relay and bridge it. Auto tuned without any issues and keeping a stable temp. Steam is working fine on the alarm after changing a few settings.


----------



## Kai

Cheers bud , fingers crossed it will be as easy once my sausage fingers get involved


----------



## timmyjj21

My PID arrived! yay! BUT DO NOT BUY THIS KIT!!!!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171435333719?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Although it is the same model code as pictured and has SSR output, it has no alarm pins. From the comments here it appears that we should be buying a Relay output version and modifying it, as the SSR output versions just don't seem to come with alarm pins. Has anyone found an SSR output version that is actually usable?


----------



## andy_mg2000

timmyjj21 said:


> My PID arrived! yay! BUT DO NOT BUY THIS KIT!!!!
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171435333719?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> Although it is the same model code as pictured and has SSR output, it has no alarm pins. From the comments here it appears that we should be buying a Relay output version and modifying it, as the SSR output versions just don't seem to come with alarm pins. Has anyone found an SSR output version that is actually usable?


Assuming you have a soldiering iron, just buy the relay version I linked to earlier and modify it. It's a 15 minute job and worked fine. Get some soldiering braid to take of the excess soldier as it makes the task easier. Ordering another SSR version is risky as most now seem to be missing the alarm.


----------



## thirteeneast

My kit arrived today and as the seller confirmed it is SSR output and what's more it only took 4 DAYS FROM CHINA TO LONDON!.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Dual-Digital-RKC-PID-C100FK02-V-AN-110-240V-Solid-State-Relay-SSR40DA-Temperature-Controller-with/1996043013.html

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1pcs-Soild-State-Relay-SSR-40-AA-AC-AC-40A-250V-80-250VAC-24-380VAC/695201725.html

Fastest post from China that I've ever experienced.


----------



## thirteeneast




----------



## thirteeneast




----------



## timmyjj21

thirteeneast said:


> My kit arrived today and as the seller confirmed it is SSR output and what's more it only took 4 DAYS FROM CHINA TO LONDON!.
> 
> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Dual-Digital-RKC-PID-C100FK02-V-AN-110-240V-Solid-State-Relay-SSR40DA-Temperature-Controller-with/1996043013.html
> 
> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1pcs-Soild-State-Relay-SSR-40-AA-AC-AC-40A-250V-80-250VAC-24-380VAC/695201725.html
> 
> Fastest post from China that I've ever experienced.


Nice. That's what my kit should have been







No reply from seller for the past 2 days regarding a return.


----------



## thirteeneast

Sorry to hear that


----------



## timmyjj21

Just checking about the relay PID... Do you just remove the one relay to pins 3,4,5 or do you also remove the relay for alarm pins 6 and 7 too?


----------



## NJD1977

No leave the alarm relay alone. That's needed for the steam control.


----------



## timmyjj21

Sweet, I'll stop burning my fingers on the soldering iron now!


----------



## thirteeneast

I'm done, I think?...

Can anyone give me a break down of what I need to do on first power up of the Rex?

Settings eg:


----------



## NJD1977

I think I posted my Rex settings way back in this thread somewhere. Let me know if you can't find it.


----------



## thirteeneast

Yeah thanks page ten I think.

Since I change my SL1 setting from K to pt100 (code 1000)

My SSR's don't light up?

Is there a way to factory default the Rex


----------



## thirteeneast

Ignore that, I was being daft.

All done, plus shot timer.

Many thanks to all and OP.

Regards.


----------



## timmyjj21

Done as well!

Thanks everyone for the help, and for the OP's write up

To consolidate information and also cover the bits I found annoying:

The pt100 sensor I received has 2 red and 1 white wire. White to pin 8 and red to 9 and 10.

I used 6.5mmID and 10mmOD conduit. It wasn't really big enough for all the wires going into the slits at the back of the machine so I split the wires into two conduits.

Settings:

AL1 = 0047 (47 degrees above my set point of 103 = 150 degrees for steam)

LCK: set to 1000 to allow full access for settings

Pressing and holding 'set' and the second button '

GOD 0000:

SL1: 1000 - MrShades pt100 sensor

SL4: 0001 - Upper limit deviation alarm

SL7: 0001 - Non-incentive alarm. I found this in another thread and it fixed my steam issues. I still don't really know what it means.

GOD 0001:

SLH - 200, just in case anything went majorly wrong. I was thinking I could change it to 165 to act as a secondary thermal protection? maybe?

Go back to the basic settings menu:

ATU: 0001 - Auto tune. Orange light 'AT' will blink and the temp reading will go up and down. The temp will stabilise and the orange light will stop blinking = done!

It all functions nicely with the shot timer.

And of course, pics as proof, otherwise it never happened


----------



## Kai

Now would there be any obvious reason that the PID powers up when the machine switch is off and when you turn the switch on the PID turns off ??

It is a very early classic but I have triple checked the connections and I cannot see any errors


----------



## NJD1977

Kai said:


> Now would there be any obvious reason that the PID powers up when the machine switch is off and when you turn the switch on the PID turns off ??
> 
> It is a very early classic but I have triple checked the connections and I cannot see any errors


Mine is an early classic, and I found the same problem. From memory, I think I solved it by altering the connection at the incoming power at the rear of the classic to the other pin.


----------



## Kai

You mean you swapped the live and neutral around from the mains ?

Or the T1 and T2 connections on the PID ?

Sorry for being dense


----------



## timmyjj21

I had a similar problem. Pin position is irrelevant since we are using AC (alternating current). Instead make sure that the wire supposed to piggyback onto the neutral is on the brown wire, not the blue. I don't think it matters if this is the top or the bottom pin. The issue comes from what eventually happens to the wires inside the machine as opposed to the position on the plug on the back.


----------



## NJD1977

Kai said:


> You mean you swapped the live and neutral around from the mains ?
> 
> Or the T1 and T2 connections on the PID ?
> 
> Sorry for being dense


The wire that went to the 3 pin incoming power at the rear of the case, I found it needed to be on a different one. I didn't touch the PID end of things.


----------



## Kai

Ok cheers , mines that old that I do not have a 3 pin connector , the wires come into the classic and are joined to the internal wiring by mounted screwblocks


----------



## Kai

And by using the above logic that has cured the problem. 

Many thanks !!


----------



## Kai

And now the next "issue".....

What would cause the classic to just keep on heating ?

I've set the SV temp to 70 and the Alarm to +43 , then run the Autotune and I can see the temperature increasing , the light on the Rex illuminates to show the alarm limit has been reached but the temperature keeps on increasing until I turn the machine off at circa 160 degrees.

Help me Obi wan .....


----------



## NJD1977

It will be to do with how the alarm settings are set up. There are definitely some settings which need changing from the default. Read back through my posts in this thread where I think I posted which setting to alter.

Try setting SL7 to 0001.

This alters the alarm from normally open to normally closed.


----------



## Kai

NJD1977 said:


> It will be to do with how the alarm settings are set up. There are definitely some settings which need changing from the default. Read back through my posts in this thread where I think I posted which setting to alter.
> 
> Try setting SL7 to 0001.
> 
> This alters the alarm from normally open to normally closed.


I've been over your posts too many times to mention lol....

R is set to 1

SL2-SL11 are all set to 0000 with the exception on SL7 which is 0001

The SSR AA lights up if I hit the steam switch but the DA does not light up at all , at what point should it illuminate ?


----------



## NJD1977

The DA wont illuminate during steaming, the AA does all the work.


----------



## timmyjj21

SL4 and SL7= 0001


----------



## Kai

SL4 now set to 0001 and it's still not cutting the power to the heating elements.

I'm 99% sure the issue is more hardware related unless the actual PID is faulty somehow but it all seems to be functioning correctly


----------



## timmyjj21

Kai said:


> And now the next "issue".....
> 
> What would cause the classic to just keep on heating ?
> 
> I've set the SV temp to 70 and the Alarm to +43 , then run the Autotune and I can see the temperature increasing , the light on the Rex illuminates to show the alarm limit has been reached but the temperature keeps on increasing until I turn the machine off at circa 160 degrees.
> 
> Help me Obi wan .....


if you have everything set as per my previous post back one page, double check them, and just in case here is some others to check.

T=1 (working period, seconds, found in the very first basic menu)

SL6 to 0001 (inverse operation- heating)

possibly if you have SL6 set to 0000 (as you say it is) it is actively trying to cool, so turning on, making it heat, so it stays turned on, trying to cool, but actually gets hotter, so it stays turned on trying to cool, so it gets even hotter, so...


----------



## timmyjj21

Kai said:


> SL2-SL11 are all set to 0000 with the exception on SL7 which is 0001


Just re-read this. SL6 is probably the issue.


----------



## Kai

timmyjj21 said:


> Just re-read this. SL6 is probably the issue.


Sadly not 

The PID looks like it's working correctly as it should , does one of the SSR's cut the power to the elements ?

If so how would I test it ?


----------



## NJD1977

The AA SSR turns the elements on when the steam switch is flicked down. Then the AA remains on(energised) until such a point that the AL1 level is reached and the AL1 output triggers to switch off the AA SSR.

If the elements are continuing to heat, it won't be the AA SSR at fault it will be something failing with the AL1 settings/output to cut the power to the AA SSR.

It's worth noting that all these Rexs seem to have different user manuals, so the settings may be slightly different. If you can scan and post your user manual it may help.


----------



## Kai

Thanks for taking the time , if your ever in Devon I will get the first round in 

Here's the relevant sections , see what you make of them...

Going by the model it's a upper limit deviation alarm


----------



## NJD1977

Ok, I've checked my settings for you. Try these first:

SL1 = 1000

SL2 = 0000

SL3 = 0000

SL4 = 0001

SL5 = 0000

SL6 = 0001

SL7 = 0001

SL8 = 0000

SL9 = 0000

SL10 = 1001

SL11 = 0000

These work perfectly on my Rex.


----------



## timmyjj21

Looks to be the same as my manual, so the settings for SL4,6 and 7 should be correct. I'm stumped but believe it should be a setting somewhere. Brew temp works OK and its just a steam issue?


----------



## timmyjj21

NJD1977 said:


> SL10 = 1001
> 
> These work perfectly on my Rex.


Interesting. I have it as 0000.


----------



## Kai

NJD1977 said:


> Ok, I've checked my settings for you. Try these first:
> 
> SL1 = 1000
> 
> SL2 = 0000
> 
> SL3 = 0000
> 
> SL4 = 0001
> 
> SL5 = 0000
> 
> SL6 = 0001
> 
> SL7 = 0001
> 
> SL8 = 0000
> 
> SL9 = 0000
> 
> SL10 = 1001
> 
> SL11 = 0000
> 
> These work perfectly on my Rex.


Tried these ( mine were the same except SL10) , no joy , as I've said everything looks like it's working as far as the PID functions.


----------



## NJD1977

Can you hear the relay in the Rex click pretty loudly when the AL1 value is reached?


----------



## Kai

Yes , the Al led illuminates and relay switches as expected but the temperature keeps rising.

I know I keep banging on about the SSR's but at which point should the DA led illuminate as it's always " off "


----------



## MrShades

When the Al illuminates on the PID and the relay clicks, the LED on both SSRs should be off.

When you initially flick the steam switch the Al light should be off but the LED on the AA SSR should come on.

At no point when steaming should the DA SSR LED come on.


----------



## Kai

I haven't got as far as using the steam switch yet apart from when I tested my connections ( it does illuminate when the steam switch is flicked )

I just wanted to rule a faulty SSR out of the equation as I can't see any other reason as to why the Elements keep on heating


----------



## NJD1977

Ah. Now I see. I had assumed you were in steam mode. The DA light should come on pretty solid from cold, then start flickering rapidly on/off as the Sv is reached. If the DA isnt switching your elements on/off during normal operations then that sounds like a circuitry problem.


----------



## Kai

So if all the wiring connections are as per the guide in this thread and the DA light does not illuminate at any point from switching the brew switch on then possibly the relay is faulty and permanently live thus causing the elements to heat up.

Is there anyway of testing the DA independently to confirm or deny my theory ?


----------



## NJD1977

If you're wiring is correct and the DA light doesn't come on at all then the elements wouldnt heat up at all.

So something doesn't add up.

Sounds like some kind of circuity problem.

You have disconnected your old thermostats haven't you?

The way to test the DA SSR would be to fire 12v into the inputs to see if the led came on. Less than 12v would usually trigger it as well if you have a few batterys laying around.


----------



## Kai

Ok with 12v connected the led lights up so that's ok.

So presumably it isn't receiving power from the PID ( terminals 4/5) ... Correct ?

And yes all the wiring to the brew and steam stats is disconnected


----------



## NJD1977

Kai said:


> Ok with 12v connected the led lights up so that's ok.
> 
> So presumably it isn't receiving power from the PID ( terminals 4/5) ... Correct ?
> 
> And yes all the wiring to the brew and steam stats is disconnected


Correct. Is it an SSR output or have you removed the relay and bridged it?


----------



## Kai

It's the relay version , I've not bridged it yet .

I thought that even with the relay connected it would work but constantly switch , please tell me it isn't that simple.....


----------



## NJD1977

Yes. I think it is that simple. The relay outputs 240v not 12v so it will not trigger the low voltage DA SSR.

You can leave the relay in but you must bridge from the 12v side of the relay to output to the DA.


----------



## Kai

Well if nothing else it's adding to the shared knowledge 

I will give it a go this evening and fingers crossed 30 mins later will be enjoying my first decent coffee in 10 days !!


----------



## NJD1977

What I still don't understand is why your elements are even heating up at all if your DA isnt activating.


----------



## Kai

The only thing maybe it's to do with it being an very early model and having to connect the wire from T2 to the blue wire from the mains so the unit would turn on with the Classic ( see my first problem similar to yours )

But I will try to cross one hurdle first


----------



## Kai

Success !!!! Of a sort ....

Removed the relay from the Pid , bridged the connections , turned the power on and the DA light illuminated !!

The temperature increased up the the SV set and at that point the light went out !

So the Pid is working as it should 

However the heating elements have a mind of their own but at least I'm moving forward


----------



## NJD1977

Feels like you're somehow powering the elements straight from the mains rather than via the PID/ DA SSR.


----------



## Kai

I've come to the same conclusion , I'm thinking that I've got to look at the on off switch as its the only constant .


----------



## MrShades

I'd check the DA SSR and make sure that it goes open circuit when the light is off (continuity tester should do it).

If the SSR is working fine and it's not just permanently latched on then I'd double double check your wiring - as that's much more likely the cause.

Try disconnecting one of the output wires from the SSR and then power up the machine and see what happens. If it heats at all then it's your wiring at fault... If it doesn't then it could well be a dodgy (permanently closed) SSR.


----------



## Kai

MrShades said:


> I'd check the DA SSR and make sure that it goes open circuit when the light is off (continuity tester should do it).
> 
> If the SSR is working fine and it's not just permanently latched on then I'd double double check your wiring - as that's much more likely the cause.
> 
> Try disconnecting one of the output wires from the SSR and then power up the machine and see what happens. If it heats at all then it's your wiring at fault... If it doesn't then it could well be a dodgy (permanently closed) SSR.


And it's looking like this has been the problem all along 

If I disconnect T1/T2 wiring on the DA and check the continuity I have a live circuit no matter if the led is on or off . With the t1/t2 wiring disconnected the elements do not warm up , indicating that my wiring is ok ( should be as I've checked it too many times to mention )

If I leave the wiring disconnected but hit the steam switch the AA light comes on and cycles around the alarm temperature setting switching the power on and off as needed.

So I'm waiting on a new DA ssr and will update when it arrives and is tested


----------



## NJD1977

To be fair, running 240v AC into a SSR designed to take 12v DC probably isn't too healthy for the little fella!


----------



## Kai

Well the new ssr arrived this morning , connected up the wires , flicked the switch.....

And it only blooming worked as it should !!!!!

@MrShades and @NJD1977 soooo much thanks you are both stars 

Now what to tinker with next....


----------



## Kai

Just to finish and to add a bit of knowledge to this thread.

I have a early classic , the mains wire is a direct connection into the back of the machine via " chocolate block" connectors , I could not mount the SSR relays to the back of the machine so they are both mounted to the sidewall. This means that I was able to route all of the Pid wires via the mains cable rather than through the slots at the back , I am happier with this as it reduces the chances of the wires chafing over time , I'm just waiting on some cable wrap to tidy the wires up.


----------



## Sean63

Struggling to take the plunge and upgrade from my classic to a DB or HX.

This looks like a good project so will give it a go.

Thanks for the post.


----------



## truecksuk

Guys, sorry for reviving a dead horse! I have been intending to do this for two years now and finally managed to have a crack.

I wired everything up, double checked all the wiring, but the Rex doesn't appear to light up







I've had it lying around since December 2014!

Any ideas how I could check it for life, before I go ahead and order another one?

Thanks, Q


----------



## MrShades

If it does nothing when power is supplied to terminals 1 and 2 (on a C100 anyway) then you're either applying the wrong sort of power (AC rather than DC for example), or it's knackered.

Try it with power applied just to terminals 1 and 2 and nothing else connected.

It is an AC PID isn't it


----------



## truecksuk

No idea! I am clueless when it comes to this subject (and many others). I real Majnu's instructions and only attached Terminal 1 - with the middle pin of the Gaggia power button. Nothing, not even a blink.

Then, when I connect Terminal 2 to the Neutral of the machine, it trips hole house's power. (I haven't fitted a fuse inline, which I will do now methinks)


----------



## truecksuk

guess i'll order a new one


----------



## truecksuk

Goodness. I still cannot get the PID to start up. I've connected from Terminal 1 - going to Middle pin on the power button.









This is a new PID.


----------



## Kai

From the badge on the front is your machine a early one , what type of mains connector do you have entering the machine ?

Secondly you have connected T1 to the switch , what connection have you attached to T2 ?


----------



## truecksuk

Hi Kai, Sorry forgot to mention, basically when I attach T2 to the neutral it shorts the house wiring!









Right now its connected to nothing.

I have a kettle plug that connects to the machine.


----------



## Kai

Ok the reason it's not lighting up is because you haven't got a return wire back into the classic .

I had all sorts of initial problems connecting wires , I just had to apply a bit of logic to get it right ( read through my efforts on the previous page of this thread )

From what I can remember the instructions you can download are correct , it's just the Gaggia with its Italian quality control that throws the spanner in the works


----------



## MrShades

With T1 connected to the middle pin of the switch-bank, as you've shown - and T2 connected to the neutral at the rear of the machine, the PID should power up (when you power the machine up) and do something. Your mains shouldn't just trip - there's something else or something odd going on to cause that.


----------



## truecksuk

Kai said:


> Ok the reason it's not lighting up is because you haven't got a return wire back into the classic .
> 
> I had all sorts of initial problems connecting wires , I just had to apply a bit of logic to get it right ( read through my efforts on the previous page of this thread )
> 
> From what I can remember the instructions you can download are correct , it's just the Gaggia with its Italian quality control that throws the spanner in the works


Hi Kai, any initial thoughts on why it would be causing this to fail over? Why would this trip the wiring in the house


----------



## MrShades

If I had this problem, then the first thing that I'd try would be to take two wires (one from T1 and one from T2) and connect them DIRECTLY to the L and N terminals on the power input socket on the back of the machine (just remove the existing blue and brown ones).

Doing this, the PID should power up when you stick the power lead in and turn the mains on.


----------



## smorgo

I don't mean to sound condescending, but can we make absolutely sure that you're connecting to T1 and T2, not T6 and T7. The red wire that's showing in your picture, is that the one that you're connecting to the Neutral terminal?

Next question - are you definitely connecting to Neutral and not the Earth terminal? That would be a sure-fire way to trip out your main power.

Sorry if these are dumb questions - it would be a lot easier if it was in front of me!


----------



## truecksuk

I take no offense whatsoever, I admit to my cluelessness with electrics.

I've checked it twice/thrice over. it's definately the T1/T2 terminals (they've got additional markers indicating so on them)

Erm, I may be doing something dopey here, I'm connecting it to the green/yellow wires that are connected to the case. Is this incorrect


----------



## Kai

Green / Yellow is the earth , this would seem to be your problem


----------



## smorgo

truecksuk said:


> Erm, I may be doing something dopey here, I'm connecting it to the green/yellow wires that are connected to the case. Is this incorrect


Thank you, I'm fist-pumping now!

Yes, green/yellow is Earth. Quick electrics lesson for you - the Residual Current Device in your mains consumer unit is looking for a difference between the current flowing through the Live and Neutral connections. If everything is alright, the current flowing through the Live should more-or-less match the current flowing through the Neutral. If it isn't, then it means that current is escaping somewhere it shouldn't, so it cuts off the power for safety. By connecting T2 to Earth, the current is flowing from Live, but is not flowing back through the Neutral; it's flowing to Earth. The breaker detects this as a dangerous fault and trips. For a fraction of a second, the PID would have been powered up. But then, so would the metal case of your Classic!

Find the Neutral connection on the socket and connect to that. Your chances will be much improved.

Good luck!


----------



## truecksuk

OH GOLLY GOSH! Thank you so much guys! I'll tend to this once i've finished my Ruby rails tutorial session (something else im not good at!)


----------



## MrShades

Sorry, but with your lack of basic electrical knowledge are you really sure you should be doing this?


----------



## Missy

MrShades said:


> Sorry, but with your lack of basic electrical knowledge are you really sure you should be doing this?


Darwin would say yes....


----------



## truecksuk

As with any endeavour, you live and you learn. I have always enjoyed getting involved with things completely outside my realm of comfort.


----------



## Kai

Or to put it another way..... " what doesn't kill you makes you stronger "

Problem with that is that it might just kill you !

Seriously take care .


----------



## truecksuk

Hehe! Will do! We're good to go!


----------



## MrShades

Has that c100 got all 10 terminals on the back? Most of the Berme branded ones I've seen have terminals 6 and 7 missing.


----------



## truecksuk

Yes funny enough the 6+7 are indeed missing. On my other PID they're present... What gives?


----------



## MrShades

You won't be able to use the alarm for steaming with that one then.


----------



## truecksuk

Guys, we're all wired up, however my dearest Gaggia is not heating up. I have checked the thermal fuse for continuity, and there is none. Therefore I am guessing this is what needs replacing. However, I cannot understand why the rest of the machine lights up? (i.e. i can pump water, and the PID/Power lights are on)


----------



## truecksuk

I'm at a loss here, chaps. I managed to solder the relays on the PID, replace the thermal fuse (for safe measure). However, the machine is still not heating up.

I also took out the RTD thermocouple and placed it in hot water - the PID just reads 29-30

HELP!


----------



## truecksuk




----------



## truecksuk

I could try to connect the thermostat wires?


----------



## timmyjj21

It has between a while since I did my install, but have you changed the internal PID settings for using the PT100 temperature probe? Earlier in this thread there is a checklist of settings needed. Also check you have the 3 temp sensor wires around the right way.


----------



## truecksuk

The two Red ones are on 9+10 and white on no.8


----------



## MrShades

Sounds ok -does it say "Pt" (looks like Pr) when you first turn it on?


----------



## truecksuk

As soon as I turn it on, it says 1NP and *C (celcius symbol) and a Y that is the wrong way round (its almost as though its trying to show me a Super Mario score







)


----------



## truecksuk




----------



## timmyjj21

Well that's probably your issue! You need to change the settings to use the PT sensor.

EDIT: page 21 of this thread has a list of the PID setting codes you need.


----------



## truecksuk

Thank for that!! looks like I'm getting somewhere. When I turn the machine on, it says Pt. However nothing happens until I hit the steam button. That's when the boiler kicks in to action and the SSR AA flicks on!!









It hits its predefined 145, perfectly, and cycles accordingly.

However, the brew doesn't work. I though it may be the SSR DA but replacing it hasn't worked









The "out" light keeping flashing? Not sure what that is

I've changed all the SL settings

I'm going to triple check these connections


----------



## MrShades

When the OUT light flashes, the SSR DA led should flash at the same time.

If it doesn't then there's something wrong either with :

1. Wiring from PID to SSR DA

- check you have - to - and + to +

2. Output from PID (it is SSR output and not Relay isn't it?)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MrShades

On a side note : if ever there was a good advertisement for my PID kit, I think I've found it... ;-)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## truecksuk

hehe, well i would have paid for the kit, if i hadn't already bought the stuff (2014)

the relay has been removed, yup. Going to Triiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiple check the connections.


----------



## MrShades

truecksuk said:


> hehe, well i would have paid for the kit, if i hadn't already bought the stuff (2014)
> 
> the relay has been removed, yup. Going to Triiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiple check the connections.


As I've said countless times, buying all the stuff is just the start of your problems if you really don't know what you're doing with it!

Anyway, I'm enjoying this - so let us know how the wiring check goes!

(And can I also confirm what I think you said : your PID was originally a relay output (not SSR) and didn't have the alarm terminals present.... So you've removed the relay from the output (and I assume modded the PID so that the relay signal now provides a DC SSR output) and (I assume) used that relay and transplanted it to add the relay alarm circuit for steam?)


----------



## truecksuk

I don't doubt this is way beyond my capacity.

Yes, the relay has been replaced with soldered connecting wires

Something tells me it's a faulty DA. But that would mean two have broken, highly unlikely methinks?!?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## truecksuk

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## truecksuk

All settings are default + SL### settings have been changed.

you can do it Adrian!!!!









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MrShades

Do you get a voltage across the SSR terminals of the PID (that should be switching the SSR) whenever the 'out' lighth comes on?

(ie disconnect the SSR and just put your voltmeter across the two terminals on the PID and see if it ever gets a DC voltage applied).

If it does then just try swapping the input wires around on the SSR (they are +/- sensitive and won't work if connected the wrong way round).

So :

Firstly, is the PID sending the signal to the SSR?

Secondly, does the SSR react to it? (led should come on)

Also looks odd that your 'ready' light is permanently on, on the front switch panel - so def something not right here.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## truecksuk

It is sending around 1v from port 4 and 50v from port 5.

The SSR does not react.

I wonder why the panel light is on ready









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## truecksuk

The +\+ and -\- are definitely correct

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## MrShades

truecksuk said:


> It is sending around 1v from port 4 and 50v from port 5.
> 
> The SSR does not react.
> 
> I wonder why the panel light is on ready
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not sure what you mean by that...

Put your multimeter on DC volts and put one lead on term 4 and the other on term 5

Does that voltage change (it should be 0 or close to it when the OUT light is off, and 12 or more volts when the OUT light is on). What does yours do?


----------



## MrShades

... And then, just to check, you have term 4 of the PID going to term 4 of the SSR40DA and term 5 of the PID going to term 3 of SSR40DA?

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## truecksuk

No, I have 4 going to 3. As suggested in manjus instructions. On my SSR 3 is + and PID port 4 is +. Should these still be switched?

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## truecksuk

Also, the PID is giving off 20v from ports 4+5. The out light is on, but for now I've removed the wires connecting those ports to SSR40DA

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## truecksuk

How odd, with the SV on 2 and out light off, it is still giving off: 17v from 4+5 :s

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## truecksuk

My SSR40DA terminal 4 is + and the PID Terminal 4 is -


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## MrShades

Yes, my mistake - was trusting a photo on the Internet.

Your wiring is correct.

But if 4 and 5 are at 17v permanently then the SSR should be on permanently also

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## MrShades

Test the SSR with a 9V battery if you have one, and check that the LED on it lights when you connect it simply to the +/- terminals of a 9v battery

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## truecksuk

My GGGGGGGiddy Aunt, it lights up! Now I'm completely at a loss.


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## truecksuk

I even tried connecting the thermostat wires together, which was suggested in a previous post. The Brew light turns off, the temprature rises, but DOESN'T stop! So I was lucky I didn't fry the thing.

Just thought that might help.


----------



## MrShades

So am I - have you tried swapping the wires around from 4 and 5 on the PID (so try 4 to 4 on the SSR and 5 to 3 on the SSR)

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## MrShades

All we can see now is that the SSR works. The output from the PID is apparently 17v (which should light the SSR up, but for some reason it doesn't)

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## truecksuk

just switched those ones around, still nothing. Bewildered.

There's something telling the machine that it's ready, hence the brew light

Something's stopping the SSR40DA from turning on, even though there is current going to it. I wonder what'll happen if I disconnect terminals 1-2 on SSR40DA?


----------



## truecksuk

It now appears that Terminals 4+5 are only giving 3.8v. I wonder if this has been the case all along (cheap multimeter!)


----------



## MrShades

Brew light is just a reverse of the OUT or SSR LED light - so when the SSR is on, heating the water,the brew light goes off - and vice versa.

So brew light on permanently just means that the machine isn't warming up

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## MrShades

4 and 5 should be almost zero normally, and go to 12v or more when the OUT light comes on

So to test properly make sure the SV is high enough to cause OUT to be on

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## truecksuk

My only guess now is that this bridge is incorrect. I wonder if my PID differs from the YouTube video

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## truecksuk

Sorry about the mess, changed the wires but wanted to make sure before making any permanent










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## truecksuk

To reiterate:


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## truecksuk

eek, looks like this bit is a little 'burnt'. think this happened when i initially soldered. Does this affect connectivity?


----------



## marcuswar

I assume those pictures where taken before you soldered the links in place because those right-hand links don't look to have been soldered at all ?

Have you tried doing a continuity test with a multi-meter. Touch one probe to the side of the right-hand link at the top and the other to the 2nd square board connector and make sure you have continuity.


----------



## marcuswar

truecksuk said:


> eek, looks like this bit is a little 'burnt'. think this happened when i initially soldered. Does this affect connectivity?
> 
> View attachment 20423


Eek, that looks like you've burnt/lifted the pad/track off the board.

If you have you'll need to trace the track back from that hole and find another point where you can solder the link to.


----------



## Fatheed

Well I took the plunge and followed you guys into the land of PID. I have an old Gaggia Tebe so I decided to pimp it up. This thread has been a great help with lots of information. The Tebe does not have the luxury of space inside as it is pretty cramped. I managed to fit one SSR inside and used Marcus idea of the aluminium box section to house the other. The results have been great. Many thanks guys.

View attachment 20717


(Sorry I don't know how to rotate picture)


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## jimbojohn55

Hi Fatheed - and welcome to the forum - Just curious - are the components in the TEBE the same as the Classic?

but its a good first pimp - you can always transfer it later on


----------



## Fatheed

jimbojohn55 said:


> Hi Fatheed - and welcome to the forum - Just curious - are the components in the TEBE the same as the Classic?
> 
> but its a good first pimp - you can always transfer it later on


Jimbojohn55

As far as I am aware the insides are the same see image


----------



## gmichie

Hi all, can anyone confirm if they have successfully purchased a pid with the alarm functions recently? if you have a link that would be much appreciated. G


----------



## gmichie

thirteeneast said:


> My kit arrived today and as the seller confirmed it is SSR output and what's more it only took 4 DAYS FROM CHINA TO LONDON!.
> 
> http://www,aliexpress.com/item/Dual-Digital-RKC-PID-C100FK02-V-AN-110-240V-Solid-State-Relay-SSR40DA-Temperature-Controller-with/1996043013.html
> 
> Fastest post from China that I've ever experienced.


I bought the rex-c100 from this link above last week, it arrived in good time with the alarm screws present. hope this helps


----------



## gmichie

Thanks to everyone on the board for the how to and set up tips, my classic seems to be working again


----------



## silk_91

Hello everyone

Which thread diameter does the thermocouple k sensor need to have to fit into the boiler?

I read that the one that comes with the set linked on page one does not fit?

Thanks!

Manuel


----------



## MrShades

M4 - I sell custom made pt100 sensors for exactly this purpose.


----------



## silk_91

Ah, nice. How much is it incl. shipping to Germany?


----------



## MrShades

silk_91 said:


> Ah, nice. How much is it incl. shipping to Germany?


£15 plus £3 extra for standard shipping to Germany. Drop me a PM if you're interested in buying one.


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## silk_91

Will do. I read somewhere that you also offer this on ebay, is the info incorrect or am I just not able to find it?


----------



## MrShades

silk_91 said:


> Will do. I read somewhere that you also offer this on ebay, is the info incorrect or am I just not able to find it?


It's on eBay also - but cheaper for you and me on here...


----------



## nonyymi24

Has anyone done this using XMT7100 pid? Any wiring diagrams?


----------



## nonyymi24

I have done now. I will post modified diagram once have time to edit one in post 1.

I pic diagram from http://www.gaggiausersgroup,com/index.php/topic,724.msg6942.html#msg6942 and modded it only a little. I switch rexc100 pin numbering to xmt7100 numbering. Not a big thing but it may help someone.

--DISCLAIMER-- If you use attached pic as a reference you do it on your own risk!


----------



## slavo

Chockymonster said:


> Here's the pin out on the side of the sestos.
> 
> My thoughts are:
> 
> From the PID
> 
> terminal 10 to on-off switch
> 
> Terminal 9 to neutral
> 
> Terminal 11 loop to terminal 9
> 
> Terminal 12 to Terminal 4 on 40a AA SSR
> 
> Terminal 8 to Terminal 3 on 40a DA SSR
> 
> Terminal 6 to Terminal 4 on 40a DA SSR
> 
> Terminal 5 4 & 3 for the RTD
> 
> From SSR AA
> 
> Terminal 3 to middle pin steam switch
> 
> Terminal 2 to Piggyback to top steam switch pin
> 
> Terminal 1 to Piggyback to brew switch bottom pin
> 
> From SSR DA
> 
> Terminal 1 to Terminal 1 on SSR AA
> 
> Terminal 2 to Terminal 2 on SSR AA
> 
> The SSR wiring is confusing me!


Hi,

what was your final connection for SESTOS and I needed to set the exact procedure for AL1 alarm output. I have this PID but I still can not accurately set the temperature control for steam and possible poorly connected SSR AA relays. Thanks for help.

Slavo


----------



## slavo

Hi,

can you please modify to PID SESTOS D1S-VR-220?

Slavo


----------



## EastBayCoffee

Greetings all - I have been meaning to get on these forums and now I have a real reason. The thermostat blew in my older model Gaggia Classic and I can only get steam. I figure that now is the time to install a PID in my device. Since many of these posts in the thread are several years old, I am curious if there have been any significant changes in the meantime? Are there new recommendations for PID devices? I'm in the States, so likely will buy it from eBay or Amz. I have read through the previous posts and am hopefully aware of some of the issues others have experienced.

Thanks in advance for any and all help.


----------



## EastBayCoffee

To follow up - after researching PID devices and perusing eBay, I am curious if there is a reason not to purchase a used industrial level device? It would seem that they will have better internal parts and be designed for rough conditions, so should last longer than the inexpensive ones at the bottom end. All I notice is that they tend to be a little (or much) larger than the PIDs used in the normal coffee kits. Just musing, I guess...


----------



## mh825

Hi, I had problem with brewing... I had 2 REX c100 ssr and relay output. I will be modify relay version like on video 



 What do you think ?


----------



## mh825

I solder the wire like on the video, but not helps..... Steam works, brewing not... Brewing switch is still on


----------



## GiovaD

MrShades said:


> Your wiring is correct.


 Hi all! I'm planning to do the PID mod on my Gaggia Classic. I have made a wiring Diagram showing how to install it, can someone please check it to see if there's something wrong? That would help me a lot.
View attachment Gaggia PID_scheme_pdf.pdf


----------



## tob

Hey guys, I used the modified scheme for the xmt7100 as shown by *nonyymi24,* but now when pushing the steam button, the boiler heats continuously until I shut it off. I tried it with the XMT7100 unmodified, but then the steam-button wouldn't do anything, so I desoldered the alarm-relay.

Any ideas? I'd really appreciate it!


----------



## PACMAN

Hi tob, sorry but I can't offer any advice as I'm not yet a GC owner but when I get one, I intend to PID it - did you buy your bits separately and any leads as to where you bought them from please? I've 'spied' some bits on Aliexpress but I'm always looking for other shopping suggestions.


----------



## tob

PACMAN said:


> Hi tob, sorry but I can't offer any advice as I'm not yet a GC owner but when I get one, I intend to PID it - did you buy your bits separately and any leads as to where you bought them from please? I've 'spied' some bits on Aliexpress but I'm always looking for other shopping suggestions.


 Hey pacman, i bought everything off aliexpress, but since it's not yet working as it should I'm reluctant to recommend anything specific. (Though probably it's not a parts problem)


----------



## PACMAN

Have you got the right 'output' setting on the PID? Note 2 in the manual is what I'm talking about - see this page for the manual https://www,auberins.com/index,php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=14


----------



## tob

yep, and I also tried all the other output settings, as well as different AL1 AH1 settings. I also checked my soldering, but it should be fine I guess..


----------



## PACMAN

How are you getting on tob? Any joy?


----------



## GiovaD

tob said:


> Hey guys, I used the modified scheme for the xmt7100


 Could it possibly be because you're using 2 SSRs from the same type? For example 2 times SSR-25 DA.. instead of using one SSR-25 DA and one SSR-25 AA. I myself do not understand the difference or how they work but searching in various forums I understood that the SSR for the Alarm output should be SSR-25 AA (and not DA).

Please update this forum if you find a solution to your problem.

P.S.: should the xmt7100 be with built in 5A SSR? And then it needs to be modified as in the video you linked? And after you solder the wire in the PCB where the SSR used to be, do you need to connect these pins to the actual Fotek SSR-25 DA?


----------



## tob

Well, I checked if it was the 40A AA SSR and switched it with a second one, but no luck.

indeed I'm using a 40A DA that controls brew and a 40A AA that should control steam. But as soon as I press the steam-button, the red light on my AA SSR is constantly on and steam is constantly heating.



GiovaD said:


> P.S.: should the xmt7100 be with built in 5A SSR? And then it needs to be modified as in the video you linked? And after you solder the wire in the PCB where the SSR used to be, do you need to connect these pins to the actual Fotek SSR-25 DA?


 If I understand it correctly, yes. The built-in relay is a mechanical relay.


----------



## GiovaD

tob said:


> If I understand it correctly, yes. The built-in relay is a mechanical relay.


 Thank you for your answer! I hope you can find a solution, unfortunately I have not yet done the PID mod on mine and cannot help you as of now..

What I may suggest you is though: to control steam temperature you could either wire the thermostat back as it was originally or you can buy a new thermostat, maybe 150°C like that you'll have better steaming power, on AliExpress it's fairly cheap.

Otherwise you could always set the pid temperature to 140°C whenever you want to steam and just use it like that.. the solenoid is either way closed without you having to press the steam switch. I know it's quite annoying having to manually change the temperature from the PID, but at least you have this option.

Hope this helps.


----------



## tob

Thanks for the suggestions! They feel somewhat unsatisfying still, sorry 🙃

Here's what I found out:

I've tried using another PID (same model) and everything works fine!

So I thought first of all one doesn't need to modify it. And secondly maybe it's a faulty built-in relay. But I checked it with a 9V battery and it's working. So I soldered it back, but still the PID doesn't seem to be able to control it.

Conclusion: The plans for the wiring are correct and everything works, there's just something weird about my PID, that I don't understand. I contacted the seller on aliexpress and they claim I'm the first customer claiming to have a faulty PID🤪


----------



## GiovaD

tob said:


> I've tried using another PID (same model) and everything works fine!


 That's great to hear!

may I ask you how would you wire both SSRs with the XMT7100? One is connected with 4 and 5 and the other one should be connected to the alarm function.

I was thinking about using the REX-C100 but it's too bulky, and the xmt7100 does its job just fine.


----------



## tob

I recommend checking out nonyymi24*'s *post above, they posted the correct schematics for the xmt7100!


----------



## thinkertinkering

tob said:


> Thanks for the suggestions! They feel somewhat unsatisfying still, sorry 🙃
> 
> Here's what I found out:
> 
> I've tried using another PID (same model) and everything works fine!
> 
> So I thought first of all one doesn't need to modify it. And secondly maybe it's a faulty built-in relay. But I checked it with a 9V battery and it's working. So I soldered it back, but still the PID doesn't seem to be able to control it.
> 
> Conclusion: The plans for the wiring are correct and everything works, there's just something weird about my PID, that I don't understand. I contacted the seller on aliexpress and they claim I'm the first customer claiming to have a faulty PID🤪


 @tob one clarification about your conclusion though : In summary for it to work with the schematics given by nonyymi24, did you require to mod the XMT7100 to support 2 SSRs like in the video, or did it work with just the PID stock unmodified ?


----------



## tob

thinkertinkering said:


> @tob one clarification about your conclusion though : In summary for it to work with the schematics given by nonyymi24, did you require to mod the XMT7100 to support 2 SSRs like in the video, or did it work with just the PID stock unmodified ?


 No everything worked unmodified!


----------



## thinkertinkering

tob said:


> No everything worked unmodified!


 Good man, that's great to know! Appreciate it!


----------



## AllezAllezAllez

PACMAN said:


> Have you got the right 'output' setting on the PID? Note 2 in the manual is what I'm talking about


 What output setting should it be on? Are there any other settings I would need to change after installing this PID?


----------



## thinkertinkering

Referencing from *nonyymi24*'s dual SSR diagram earlier, i've tried it out but eventually came to a road block as i couldn't really understand fully due to my lack of knowledge on Gaggia's original wirings (surrounding the question on where the SSR outputs should really go). However, fortunately, i just happened have tried my luck around and got it entirely working :



On Power button on, the PID does its thing relaying instructions via the SSR25DA to achieve your desired boiler water temp.



On Steam button on, the temperature just climbs ignoring PID's desired range, goes on and on to hit the steam temperature of your desire. You could view what's the temperature it's at as displayed on the PID display, just start steaming milk as soon as it hits your desired steam temperature. In other words, Steam button working !

For those who are geekery illiterate as i am, here's a slightly user friendly/idiot proof diagram that i've drawn up based on my success of setting it up.










You may reference the youtube video below by Robert Kujawa ( thanks Robert ! ) in regards to some pins connection. However, take note that this video is on single SSR only. You could still get Steam button to work on a single SSR, but on Robert Kujawa's video there's a link to where you had to mod (desoldering) the XMT7100.

If you're like me, who wants the XMT7100 to work on brew and steam without the desoldering mod, i've opted to go down the route of using two SSRs, just follow my wiring diagram in this post.

Enjoy !


----------



## AllezAllezAllez

thinkertinkering said:


> If you're like me, who wants the XMT7100 to work on brew and steam without the desoldering mod, i've opted to go down the route of using two SSRs, just follow my wiring diagram in this post.
> 
> Enjoy !


 Thanks for the info. Looking to do this over the next few months. With your two SSR's the second thermostat is bypassed and can be removed from the boiler?

How do you set your steam temp? As an alarm on the PID?


----------



## thinkertinkering

AllezAllezAllez said:


> Thanks for the info. Looking to do this over the next few months. With your two SSR's the second thermostat is bypassed and can be removed from the boiler?
> 
> How do you set your steam temp? As an alarm on the PID?


 *" With your two SSR's the second thermostat is bypassed and can be removed from the boiler?"*

There are two thermostats. The steam thermostat is mounted at the highest position on top of the boiler , the other one as the brew thermostat is mounted at the side and lower position on the boiler. So yea, i've removed the brew thermostat, replaced that with a new PT100 temperature sensor that goes into the XMT7100 PID's terminals 6,7,8. You may also refer to that Robert Kujawa's youtube link which demonstrates exactly this.

*"How do you set your steam temp? As an alarm on the PID?"*

I don't use the PID's alarm functionality. As you can see in my diagram the Steam switch's middle pin is connected to terminal 3 on the SSR25AA. What this means is when Steam switch is on off position, there's no current going towards terminal 3 on the SSR25AA. When i manually flick on the Steam switch, the middle pin sends current towards terminal 3 on the SSR25AA constantly, which relays the current towards Gaggia's original recipient pins (bottom right of my diagram) which then powers up the boiler constantly. So i'll just keep my eye on the displayed temperature reading till it reaches about 140c degrees. When it does then i'll turn open the steam knob and steam the milk. While the steam wand is releasing steam, the boiler temperature will not spike drastically anymore and will stay more or less within a safe range ( around 150++ celcius maximum, sometimes 140++ c) . By the way, just FYI you could see Gaggia has a fuse on top of the boiler, which senses if the temperature accidentally reaches 184 celcius, will break the circuit to avoid a disasterous overheating problem just in case, but of course it's unlikely to reach that stage if you are careful and watching it.

When you're done with the milk, quickly switch off the steam switch and continue doing steam purge to let boiler cool down to 100++ celcius, press brew button to refill boiler water and let the PID stabilises boiler water temp to get ready for next shot.


----------



## 29243

@thinkertinkering, for your steaming approach why did you bother with the expense and hassle of a second ssr? Unless I'm misunderstanding something the functionality you've described could be achieved by just unplugging the leads from the steam thermostat and connecting them together, bypassing the steam thermostat. Then when you press the steam switch (which bypasses the brew thermostat) the boiler would be on.

I wouldn't recommend this though, as the only thing protecting your boiler is the thermal fuse. It would be very easy for someone to forget and leave it on by mistake.

Is it not better to leave the steam thermostat wired in as normal? If you want more power you can start steaming before it hits the cutout temperature (145°C), which will keep the element on as taking off steam will control the temperature so it doesn't hit 145°C. If you turn it on and forget while it's warming up then it will cut out at 145°C like normal, no harm done.

Given steaming doesn't need precise temperature control I can't see why you would ever bother trying to use a pid to control it.


----------



## bbstrikesagain

BenH said:


> Is it not better to leave the steam thermostat wired in as normal?


 I'm sure it is. As normal, or in series with any second SSR.

You can also consider swapping to a slightly higher temperature M4 thermostat so it won't cut power in any normal steaming, but it will still save the thermal fuse from blowing if something goes wrong. 155°C would probably be okay and some have done this. I've ordered a 150°C stat for a little extra steaming headroom (>145°C) and a little extra protection (<155°C and << 184°C thermal fuse).



BenH said:


> Given steaming doesn't need precise temperature control I can't see why you would ever bother trying to use a pid to control it.


 I plan to use a second (AA) SSR in for XMT7100 alarm, programming AH < AL so alarm relay and steam SSR come on if below AL and go off if above AH. I'll try 144/145°C. Not really PID control, but basic closed loop with as little as 1°C target hysteresis.

Why bother? I think Mr Shades et al have it right, two SSRs seem well worth it to me. Minimal wiring disruption, normal functioning of brew and steam temp neons, and it won't overheat and then cut out until seriously cooled if I don't start steaming in time. I hope it's going to be one less thing to worry about, no more temperature surfing to brew, and no temperature surfing to steam either. For sure, it'll be easier to steam surf with a live PV display, but I'd prefer not to have to.


----------



## JamesRC

Anyone has done the PID for the Gaggia Classic v2 ( RI 9403) EU version?


----------



## AllezAllezAllez

BenH said:


> @thinkertinkering, for your steaming approach why did you bother with the expense and hassle of a second ssr?


 I was wondering about this as well. What is the point if you're not controlling it with the PID?



bbstrikesagain said:


> I plan to use a second (AA) SSR in for XMT7100 alarm, programming AH < AL so alarm relay and steam SSR come on if below AL and go off if above AH. I'll try 144/145°C. Not really PID control, but basic closed loop with as little as 1°C target hysteresis.


 What does your wiring look like? Would it be the same as *nonyymi24's diagram?*


----------



## AllezAllezAllez

Looks like everyone in this thread is using knock off SSR's. Anyone have any issues with theirs? They usually just have lower rated chips. I just had some delivered from aliexpress and they appear to be the fake ones.

Fake vs Real

Real FOTEK - FOTEK logo, Rated text and corner edge of bottom right near sticker is angled.


----------



## AllezAllezAllez

I have a question regarding the relays.

In majnu's diagram they have stated in the guide that Terminal 1 on the SSR-AA is to be Piggybacked to Brew Switch - Bottom pin and Terminal 2 on the SSR-AA is to be Piggybacked to the steam switch - Top pin.

In the photo of the relays the 1 and 2 terminals are flipped the other way around compared to what diagram in the guide is.

Are the written instructions above correct or should they be reversed?


----------



## bbstrikesagain

AllezAllezAllez said:


> I was wondering about this as well. What is the point if you're not controlling it with the PID?
> 
> What does your wiring look like? Would it be the same as *nonyymi24's diagram?*


 The point? Circa 1°C hysteretic boiler temperature control will give pretty consistent stream pressure, no more timing when to open the valve.

Same wiring? No.

For redundancy, and minimal power re-wiring, my SSRs will just replace the regular stats, so they're effectively in series, not parallel. I'll be keeping a 150°C stream stat in series too, as protection for the thermal fuse. The one you linked has the SSRs in parallel, which has its attractions, slightly more efficient, but more disruptive.

I'll be taking earths from metal casing to metal casing.

I'll be powering the XMT (etc) from a fused L and an N. Definitely not pin 1 to GND as that could put up to 8mA return current into the earth, a no-no, creating an imbalance in L and N, maybe even enough to trip the RCD in some cases.

I'm not going to share my wiring until I have all the parts and together and get it commissioned. I might share then, but it will be specific to my model, RI9480/19, 230 V completer with auto off.


----------



## bbstrikesagain

AllezAllezAllez said:


> Looks like everyone in this thread is using knock off SSR's. Anyone have any issues with theirs? They usually just have lower rated chips. I just had some delivered from aliexpress and they appear to be the fake ones.
> 
> Fake vs Real
> 
> Real FOTEK - FOTEK logo, Rated text and corner edge of bottom right near sticker is angled.


 Damn. I've ordered what will probably turn out to be fakes too, from aliexpress. Ouch.

Not just FOTEK being faked either, seems MGR (formerly Mager):
https://www.huimultd.com/INFORMATION/purchase_real_MGR_SSR/

Can't find any sellers for genuine FOTEK or MGR - can anyone?

Professional distributors' SSRs start around £25 incl. the VAT:
25DA https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/solid-state-relays/1640576
25AA https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/solid-state-relays/9032974

Around £40 to buy a 40A pair of (DA and AA) SSRs (that may be MGR) from Auber on a slow boat from the US.

I suppose I might try whatever they do send, but once the fakers start faking they tend to progressively down rate the expensive components with reckless abandon, so I wouldn't be surprised if the "40A" SSRs fail even in our (240V) 5A application... Grr!


----------



## AllezAllezAllez

Hmm so I tried my XMT7100 with the dual SSR'S but the boiler never heat up so I just went with the single SSR. Temps while steaming seems to drop quite a bit - down to 130c but if I start steaming just as it starts going up I get pretty good steam.

Ideally I would like a second SSR to help with the steaming but it's fine for now.


----------



## newdent

I'm doing a bit of research in preparation for my PID upgrade and am I correct that the reason for two SSRs for steam and brew is because of the controller you guys are using? Presumably there's no need to have two?

I'm using an ESP32 so no restrictions imposed by the controller.


----------



## AndyDClements

@newdentWould that PID be able to have two target temperatures selectable by two inputs (switches)?


----------



## newdent

AndyDClements said:


> @newdentWould that PID be able to have two target temperatures selectable by two inputs (switches)?


 Yes, current plan is to do so based on steam switch position but might make it selectable via web app initially. Would need extra hardware to detect switch position (I assume), though unlikely to be expensive.


----------



## MartinB

When I did mine, I only did the brew (one SSR). By having the boiler temperature 'on screen' you can easily learn how the stock steam thermostat works. In the end I realised that if I waited until the boiler was at 150 degrees and the steam light had come on, the boiler temp would drop do about 118 degrees before the thermostat kicked back in which meant an absolutely rubbish steaming experience.

By starting to steam around 140 degrees the boiler will climb/maintain it's temperature up to around 150ish and ensure great steaming.

Hope that helps.


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## r4mmr0d

Hey All,

I'm trying to add a REX-C100 and single SSR (40DA) to my Gaggia Classic Pro 2019 (USA). I've been struggling with this for about five days because my boiler heats up to 160C, then drops to 115C, and hits 160C again whenever the power switch is toggled on.

My PID and my SSR are only showing 'output' when i'm below my set temperature of 60C (testing temp) and i've tried two different SSRs and REX-C100s from different manufacturers to eliminate hardware as a variable.

I'm pretty frustrated because all i have done is tapped (piggyback) the neutral from behind the plug, tapped (piggyback) the live (middle post, in my USA machine its brown) wire on the power switch (note: I've also tried connecting to the hot wire on the brewing switch, which still receives power when toggled off. That is reflected in the diagram below), swapped the brew thermometer out for a K-type Thermocouple, and taken the two wires that had terminated on my brew thermometer and spaded them to the AC side of my 40DA SSR.

I've not altered anything else, and my PID and SSR are behaving as anticipated, yet the boiler is hitting steaming temps whenever the gaggia is turned on. I've validated that my switches are actually working and the steam switch hasn't failed 'closed' or anything, and my wiring is exactly reflected, (down to the color) as this 2018 USA GCP wiring diagram.

I'd be deeply appreciative of any help you could offer at this time!


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## r4mmr0d

UPDATE: I swapped the two wires that terminated on the steam therm over to the SSR, and plugged the two (originally brew therm wires) into the steam therm terminals. IT WORKS. However, this change means that my steam button no longer does anything. I can manually crank up the boiler temp to steaming levels with the PID, but that is a pain in the ass. Any thoughts as to why this didnt work with the brew wires?


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## bbstrikesagain

AllezAllezAllez said:


> Looks like everyone in this thread is using knock off SSR's. Anyone have any issues with theirs? They usually just have lower rated chips. I just had some delivered from aliexpress and they appear to be the fake ones.
> 
> Fake vs Real
> 
> Real FOTEK - FOTEK logo, Rated text and corner edge of bottom right near sticker is angled.
> 
> View attachment 61643
> 
> 
> View attachment 61645


 So, I ordered carelessly and of course I have fakes. I'm daring to use them, when I'm around only, as it's only around 5A load (230V). They are working, and running cool, but like most, mine are 100% genuine fakes!









And








What the FQFER!!!

I was feeling more hopeful about another source, more SSRs on the way, planned to use genuine and tear down the fakes to check how bad they really are, but now I'm not so sure about the ones that are coming:









I know, I know, I could just drop £60 on some good SSRs, or gamble on the dodgy fakes, but I'm on a bizarre and challenging mission to land some genuine FOTEKs....


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