# Grinder upgrade ?



## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

Looking to upgrade my grinder when I've saved a few more pennies, I would like a top grade grinder so I don't have to

upgrade again.

I'm thinking along the lines of,

Mythos

Anfim super caimano

Compak H10/K8

Mahlkonig K30 vario

HG one

Most of the time I single dose so would it be a waste of time to own one of these grinders,

or would the shot be much better than my Macap.

I know the HG one is probably the best bet for single dosing, but not sure I want the hassle of turning that handle.

Thanks.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Don't know the explanation - but I believe levers favour conical burr sets - is the HG the only one in your line up? If you're not outputting loads of shots, the HG isn't a hassle. Took mine into Atkinson's Priory Halls yesterday - they use a Robur. We banged out approx 15 shots without it being a hassle and the guys were well impressed with its quality and consistency of grind.


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## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

The Compak K10 has conical burrs, I would only do back to back shots occasionally, so maybe not to much of a problem.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Having an L1 and a Mythos, I am about to get a K10 Fresh. As Patrick mentioned, the experts say that conicals seem to produce a wider spectrum for taste than flat burrs. If you accept that, and I do, then it does not make much sense in buying a flat burr grinder, no matter how good its reputation. If cost does not come into it, then go for the best one you can.

Coffeechap has an L1 now paired with a K10........I doubt you will get a much better recommendation that that!


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## ziobeege_72 (May 6, 2013)

Yes a K10 will be a substantial leap over the Macap, based on my ownership of an M4. No doubt there. However if you are really only doing occasional back to back shots, and mostly single dose, then I would question the wisdom of having a Fresh, unless you don't mind sacrificing a shot for every shot you do.

Our US friends on HB seem to enamoured by the K10 Pro which has clean dosing and is eminently single-dosable, apparently. The advice of getting a HG1 is hard to argue either.


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## ziobeege_72 (May 6, 2013)

....although if you have any aversion to hand cranking like I do then avoid any manual grinder. And definitely including the Pharos!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The k10 fresh is a super consistent grinder, I love mine and would not give it up, just another depth of flavour over the flat burr grinders you are considering, having also had the HG1 it is a fab grinder, but a bit of a faff and in my experience not as consistent as the k10 fresh.


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## drude (Apr 22, 2013)

When I tried out the L1 at Londinium I also used an HG One. I have to say I was hugely impressed with it - not too much effort, and like the L1, it seems like something you could buy that would last a lifetime if cared for. Reiss did say he'd just bought a K10 Fresh for home use, though.


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## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

Thanks for the replies, so it looks like conical burrs would be the way to go, does the K10 fresh not handle single dosing very well.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

iroko said:


> Thanks for the replies, so it looks like conical burrs would be the way to go, does the K10 fresh not handle single dosing very well.


To be fair unless your going to go the hg1 router ,then none of these large commercial grinders are designed to single dose.they all need the weight of some beans to get to grind consistency , perhaps 100-200 depending on the grinder. It is worth it tho . They are made for coffee shops with full ish hopers . Certainly

Applies to the k10, k 30 and most of the others


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Agreed the k10 needs beans in the hopper, I run with about 100-150 gig prams in mine, but beans are good for a few days in a hopper so no freshness issues, you just then have o set the timer up and away you go, the first shot of the day is always one for the mates to purge out the stale coffee retained in the grinder, but shot number two is amazing!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Agreed the k10 needs beans in the hopper, I run with about 100-150 gig prams in mine, but beans are good for a few days in a hopper so no freshness issues, you just then have o set the timer up and away you go, the first shot of the day is always one for the mates to purge out the stale coffee retained in the grinder, but shot number two is amazing!


Same with a k30 , mythos probably the same ? If you want a big commercial grinder then don't try and hold on to single dosing . If it s that much of a deal breaker for you then go hg1, but then you have to the time and energy to use it .


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## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

Cheers guys, looks like the HG1 would be the way to go, still not sure if it's to much faff though.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

iroko said:


> Cheers guys, looks like the HG1 would be the way to go, still not sure if it's to much faff though.


And there is the rub, choices and decisions , is single dosing that big a deal, if so hg1 ? The hg1 produces lovely fluffy grind with its 83mm burrs . The coffee I have tasted from it and an l1 is lovely and wonderful. Would I want to do it at 7 in the morning ? No . To me having to purge a bit thro a commercial grinder to get the consistency I want is worth it , for the speed and quality it produces .


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I tried single dosing the Mythos. When eventually started pouring 150!gm or so into the hopper even I could notice the difference!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I tried single dosing the Mythos. When eventually started pouring 150!gm or so into the hopper even I could notice the difference!


Tough as much , perhaps the OP should get a Versalab .........


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## ziobeege_72 (May 6, 2013)

With some conical dosered models you supposedly can single dose, but that requires a few pulses, a brush shoved up the exit chute and a number of thwacks with the doser. There is indeed a bean weight issue but that is compensated by a finer grind setting. I don't think there is much difference to a flattie dosered grinder in that regard in terms of single dose management (I used to single dose with a Macap). So it is achievable if you truly want bean in bean out. However this is as much of a faff as manual grinding in my opinion so you are doomed to some sort of hassle if you insist on single dosing.

Doserless models, unless modified, generally don't offer the same access so generally single dosing is out.

I do like the others here. I have about a few days worth in the hopper and purge the first shot of the day. Infact it goes to the wife who hasn't notice any difference up til now. Thankfully she is not on this forum.

Or it goes to anyone who insists on a girly flat white.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

Most of the dosered big conicals are good for single dosing (K10, Robur, Brasilia/Rossi MC and probably others). As ziobeege_72 says, you just need to set the grind finer when you don't have a loaded hopper. Having set the grind to get the same shot weight in the same time, then the shots look the same and I can't taste the difference. I've only tested this on the Brasilia, but plenty of people have reported the same on the others. It's different with the large flat burred grinders though, in my experience; the shots from my 75mm Eureka MDL (dosered version of the Mythos essentially) tasted, and looked, worse when single dosing.

You don't really need to go to all the faff of pulsing the grinder and brushing the chute though. I don't. If you put a dose of beans in the throat of the grinder, and run it until they've all gone through, then the space between the burrs, and the grind chamber beneath them, will be virtually empty of ground coffee, leaving just a small amount in the chute (less than 2g for the Brasilia MC). I just put a few beans though before the first shot of the day or after adjusting the grind (rare) or after a change of coffee (frequent). There's far less ground coffee retained in the grinder when used like this than when used with beans in the hopper - as if you do that there'll be ground coffee in the grind chamber and partially ground coffee left between burrs. So, in normal use I put 18g of coffee beans into the grinder and get 18g, plus or minus 0.1g, out - without pulsing the grinder or brushing the chute (or even removing the doser lid). That 18g will contain a small amount of previously ground coffee, but not enough to affect the taste. This should work just as well with doserless large conicals, but you're not making the most of the electronics then I suppose.


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

GlennV said:


> Most of the dosered big conicals are good for single dosing (K10, Robur, Brasilia/Rossi MC and probably others). As ziobeege_72 says, you just need to set the grind finer when you don't have a loaded hopper. Having set the grind to get the same shot weight in the same time, then the shots look the same and I can't taste the difference. I've only tested this on the Brasilia, but plenty of people have reported the same on the others. It's different with the large flat burred grinders though, in my experience; the shots from my 75mm Eureka MDL (dosered version of the Mythos essentially) tasted, and looked, worse when single dosing.
> 
> You don't really need to go to all the faff of pulsing the grinder and brushing the chute though. I don't. If you put a dose of beans in the throat of the grinder, and run it until they've all gone through, then the space between the burrs, and the grind chamber beneath them, will be virtually empty of ground coffee, leaving just a small amount in the chute (less than 2g for the Brasilia MC). I just put a few beans though before the first shot of the day or after adjusting the grind (rare) or after a change of coffee (frequent). There's far less ground coffee retained in the grinder when used like this than when used with beans in the hopper - as if you do that there'll be ground coffee in the grind chamber and partially ground coffee left between burrs. So, in normal use I put 18g of coffee beans into the grinder and get 18g, plus or minus 0.1g, out - without pulsing the grinder or brushing the chute (or even removing the doser lid). That 18g will contain a small amount of previously ground coffee, but not enough to affect the taste. This should work just as well with doserless large conicals, but you're not making the most of the electronics then I suppose.


The retention on the robur is supposedly between 20-30g (a decimal place is not missing). Makes it rather difficult or wasteful for home use/single dosing IMO.

K10 users: what's the retention like?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

You may be able to put 18g in a k30 (or other big grinder ) and get 18 g out by using mods, hoods, brushes etc, but I would argue you are not getting the grind consistency by single dosing like this , or getting the grind you should get not the setting it is on. I would still maintain they need a weight of beans to get the grind consistent across the dose , and to get the correct fineness for the setting you have it on. I don't get the hang up of single dosing personally. We spend £100 if not £1000 on machines and grinders and then quibble over putting 100-200g in a grinder because of " waste " . Yes I know it all adds up , but surely it's the quality on the cup that counts ?


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

I will agree with Mrboots2u, especially after my experiences yesterday with DFK41 and my K30. Single dosing on these commercial machines doesn't really work...


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## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

The only reason I single dose is only have 1 or 2 cups on sat/sun, and my gf doesn't drink coffee, I don't really have time to drink it in the morning.

Perhaps I need to get up a bit earlier to give me more time, sadly I cant drink it in the evening as I'd never get to sleep.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

Gangstarrrrr said:


> The retention on the robur is supposedly between 20-30g (a decimal place is not missing). Makes it rather difficult or wasteful for home use/single dosing IMO.
> 
> K10 users: what's the retention like?


I can believe that number if it's being used with a loaded hopper, but that wasn't what I was talking about. As I described, if you stop the grinder when it's grinding, then you'll have ground coffee between the burrs, in the grind chamber and in the chute. If, on the other hand, you put a single dose in and run the grinder until it's finished grinding then you'll only have grinds in the chute - and there simply isn't room for 20-30g there.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

MarkyP said:


> I will agree with Mrboots2u, especially after my experiences yesterday with DFK41 and my K30. Single dosing on these commercial machines doesn't really work...


The K30 is a flat burred grinder, I was talking about large conicals. I agree that single dosing doesn't really work on large flats. The large conicals, on the other hand, really are surprisingly home friendly.


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## ziobeege_72 (May 6, 2013)

I am not sure i can get my head around the criticalness of bean weight to ensure consistency. If that was the case then hand grinders like Pharos and HG wouldn't work? It's even very fashionable these days to single dose on bulk grinders it would seem?

On the subject of the retention there are loads of heated pages on HB arguing the toss on retention amounts, including the basic methodology of arriving at a retention amount. I distinctly remember the K10 Pro getting around 8-10g retention which seems reasonable to me. If the Brasilia is only 2g that's pretty impressive....


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> You may be able to put 18g in a k30 (or other big grinder ) and get 18 g out by using mods, hoods, brushes etc, but I would argue you are not getting the grind consistency by single dosing like this , or getting the grind you should get not the setting it is on. I would still maintain they need a weight of beans to get the grind consistent across the dose , and to get the correct fineness for the setting you have it on. I don't get the hang up of single dosing personally. We spend £100 if not £1000 on machines and grinders and then quibble over putting 100-200g in a grinder because of " waste " . Yes I know it all adds up , but surely it's the quality on the cup that counts ?


I wasn't advocating using "mods, hoods, brushes etc". For me, the simplest way of getting 18g of most excellently ground coffee into the basket is to put 18g of beans in and leave the chute full of it's


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Apologies wasn't specifically referring to what you use with your conical grinder , but a number of people ( myself in the past included ) , have used camera hood mods etc to blow out and keep grind retention to a minimum In an effort to single dose effectively. I don't have a great deal of experience in using large conical s so will bow to your experience with yours. Interestingly I was talking to the barista at my local cafe , who feels that he can tell a difference in grind consistency when the hopper in their robur isn't completely full. I doubt he has ever had the need to experiment with single dosing though







.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

What's all this about grind retention nonsense?

It is usually an argument put forward by people who are never going to own a big conical as the reason why!

Just drink it and be happy that your first shot of the day still tastes better than the vast majority get on their fifth!

If you are going to own any sort of commercial grinder, why the heck would you want to single dose anyway?


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I have a k30 I pour a Capp first up then my wifes latte and a single espresso left over for me







I am fussy but my cappuccino is delicious. I used to have a super caimano and I would drink a double espresso from that first up dialling in for the day and didn't complain. Enjoy your coffee people like the previous post said the first is better than most people's 5th.


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## ziobeege_72 (May 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> What's all this about grind retention nonsense?
> 
> It is usually an argument put forward by people who are never going to own a big conical as the reason why!
> 
> ...


Not that I would defend such practices but if a) you are the type that likes to switch coffees a lot and b) you feel that conicals give you the best grind possible. It's not an issue that bothers me but I can understand for some its not entirely irrelevant.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I take your point but if you want to single dose, then perhaps an expensive commercially competent grinder is not for you. Why re-invent the wheel? No one yet has come up with a grinder that lets you switch easily between espresso and brew so why not just accept and work within the limitations


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> If you are going to own any sort of commercial grinder, why the heck would you want to single dose anyway?


Why not?

I typically have a fruity, but not stupidly so, espresso at breakfast, whereas my wife prefers a more chocolately blend. When I get home from work, a (stupidly acidic) Kenyan bean is more likely to hit the spot for me. Emptying and refilling hoppers all the time really would be silly. Choose 18g of beans, bung 'em in the grinder, make excellent espresso - what could be simpler?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The question I put to you, us do you think you are getting the best out of your set up this way?


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## ziobeege_72 (May 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I take your point but if you want to single dose, then perhaps an expensive commercially competent grinder is not for you. Why re-invent the wheel? No one yet has come up with a grinder that lets you switch easily between espresso and brew so why not just accept and work within the limitations


Not disagreeing with you personally. I guess for some people they want that ability to switch coffee, use a conical and cut waste. The price they pay for that is faffing around with single dosing routines that take time in a way that neither you or I could be arsed with. Or they use a manual grinder which is a faff in itself. So I dont do it myself (anymore) but I don't begrudge others who want to do it this way. If the Brasilia is really only a couple of g's as GlennV suggests then that is a win win

We are mad as it is spending thousands on our kit and yet we are suggesting people are daft for spending a couple minutes on a dose. Which is crazier? We are all mad in a way but it is all the pursuit of the best possible shot at all times. It's all fair enough I reckon.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think if you are happy drinking what you produce, then that is fine! I had a play on a K30 yesterday with another forum member and neither of us could quite believe the difference in taste between single dosed shots and shots pulled with beans in the hopper


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> The question I put to you, us do you think you are getting the best out of your set up this way?


Yes.

I was never happy with the espresso from the MDL (ie same as Mythos) when single dosing. Tried it with a full hopper and the espresso was consistently fantastic. With the large conical the espresso is fantastic whether single dosed or used with a full hopper, as long as you dial it in properly (which is easy), so it just comes down to whatever is most convenient.


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## ziobeege_72 (May 6, 2013)

Try it in a conical and see what you reckon. If you feel hopper shots are essential then it goes to my previous point on hopperless hand grinders like the HG1 and Pharos (and versalab I guess). I had the Pharos before I shifted to Coffeechap. Enormous PITA it was but once dialled it was superb. Point is that if you believe in the quality of these hand grinders then it goes by logic that you can also single dose successfully on the electronic conicals. Infact the burr sizes on the Pharos and K10 for eg are the same.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I think if you are happy drinking what you produce, then that is fine! I had a play on a K30 yesterday with another forum member and neither of us could quite believe the difference in taste between single dosed shots and shots pulled with beans in the hopper


As I said above, the K30 is a flat burred grinder. I do not understand why, but flat burrs do not seem to work without a load of beans above them and clogged chute in front of them. Large conicals do.


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## ziobeege_72 (May 6, 2013)

GlennV said:


> As I said above, the K30 is a flat burred grinder. I do not understand why, but flat burrs do not seem to work without a load of beans above them and clogged chute in front of them. Large conicals do.


I suspect it is to do with slower rotation of the conicals. Less fines are produced on conicals due to the grind action generally which means there is less fine variability. Just a stab.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

OK, I know the conversation has moved on, but here are a few photos from earlier this evening. First is the grinder as I found it, after a shot of Squaremile's sedie Yirgacheffe at teatime. Surprisingly drinkable at 6 weeks post roast. The chute is full as you can see.









I took the upper burr carrier off, you can see some grinds have fallen back in from the chute









Here I've brushed out the chute and grind chamber into the doser.









a total of 1.8g.









rumours of these grinders retention are greatly exaggerated!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

GlennV said:


> Yes.
> 
> I was never happy with the espresso from the MDL (ie same as Mythos) when single dosing. Tried it with a full hopper and the espresso was consistently fantastic. With the large conical the espresso is fantastic whether single dosed or used with a full hopper, as long as you dial it in properly (which is easy), so it just comes down to whatever is most convenient.


I am sorry but the mdl is nothing like the mythos except they both have 75mm burrs. The mythos is a pretty much zero retention grinder that is capable of single dosing due to the mechanism in it however, the point of the electronic grinders especially the mythos and the k10 fresh is their ability to accurately dispense the same amount of ground coffee, time after time and not have to faff with single dosing techniques, incidently the beans can be swapped over fairly easy in both of those machines as you just shut the hopper, grind for your last shot then change over. You will have to purge the k10 bu the mythos will be ready for the next bean.


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

Doesn't grinding the exact amount with no weight cause inconsistencies in the grind with the beans jumping around before being fully ground?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Must admit the basilia mc is a hidden gem of grinders, especially for what you paid for it!!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

geordie-barista said:


> Doesn't grinding the exact amount with no weight cause inconsistencies in the grind with the beans jumping around before being fully ground?


Yes I does n most grinders


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

GlennV said:


> As I said above, the K30 is a flat burred grinder. I do not understand why, but flat burrs do not seem to work without a load of beans above them and clogged chute in front of them. Large conicals do.


Again the mythos is he exception here as it will absolutely work with no weight of beans.


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## ziobeege_72 (May 6, 2013)

Originally Posted by geordie-barista

Doesn't grinding the exact amount with no weight cause inconsistencies in the grind with the beans jumping around before being fully ground?

Yes but much less so in conicals


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I want a mythos next. K30 anyone?


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> I am sorry but the mdl is nothing like the mythos except they both have 75mm burrs. The mythos is a pretty much zero retention grinder that is capable of single dosing due to the mechanism in it however, the point of the electronic grinders especially the mythos and the k10 fresh is their ability to accurately dispense the same amount of ground coffee, time after time and not have to faff with single dosing techniques, incidently the beans can be swapped over fairly easy in both of those machines as you just shut the hopper, grind for your last shot then change over. You will have to purge the k10 bu the mythos will be ready for the next bean.


The MDL and Mythos have the same motor, burr carriers, grind chamber and adjustment mechanism. The part numbers are all the same. The only real difference, which is clearly significant, is the angle they're all mounted at. I have long term project to take a Rossi MC out of it's case and mount it at 30 degrees to vertical ...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I guess the key difference here between the conical grinders that are being mentioned is on demand and dosered, the mc is a dosered grinder and therefore just single dosing and waiting till it has finished before thwacking into a portafilter is no probs, if however a little tedious. I prefer the on demand feature of my k10 fresh and to consistently get the same dose it does need weight of beans, and with this comes retention as quite rightly pointed out earlier, the grind path is always full when you have beans constantly In the hopper, the k10 fresh can single dose as well, but then paying the extra for on demand and accurate dose after dose consistency means I have to have beans in the hopper.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

GlennV said:


> The MDL and Mythos have the same motor, burr carriers, grind chamber and adjustment mechanism. The part numbers are all the same. The only real difference, which is clearly significant, is the angle they're all mounted at. I have long term project to take a Rossi MC out of it's case and mount it at 30 degrees to vertical ...


And boy that angle makes every bit of difference to the grinder and its ability to single dose.... Oh the mdl is not electronic on demand, does no come with a slow spin motor option and has all of the failings of a flat grind path. And n my experience of both grinders the mdl just doesn't grind as well as the mythos, strange..


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Must admit the basilia mc is a hidden gem of grinders, especially for what you paid for it!!


How do you know what I paid for it?


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

edit*

wrong thread


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