# Best espresso machine for 600€/550£?



## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

From reading through different posts I figured this would be the right place to ask my question 

I'm in the market for my first espresso machine and my budget is around 600€~550£. What is the best machine I can get?

I have looked at Sage Barista Express (500€), Rancilio Silvia (530€), and Simonelli Oscar II (650€).

Just from a design perspective, I prefer the Sage. This also has a grinder which is convenient, even though I can grind my coffee with "pro" grinders at local roasteries and even supermarkets.

Are there any other machines I should have in mind? Space is slightly limited in my kitchen and I'm not a fan of the industrial design of many classic Italian machines.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

dopefish said:


> From reading through different posts I figured this would be the right place to ask my question
> 
> I'm in the market for my first espresso machine and my budget is around 600€~550£. What is the best machine I can get?
> 
> ...


 Do you like lever machines?


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

Freshly ground coffee is going to be far far better than getting your coffee ground in advance.

You definitely need to buy a grinder.


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

Being an espresso noob, I don't know if I would like a lever machine. I can image I would like the hands-on approach. From a design point I like how they look, but the height might be a problem. How are they compared to the automatic ones?


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

dopefish said:


> Being an espresso noob, I don't know if I would like a lever machine. I can image I would like the hands-on approach. From a design point I like how they look, but the height might be a problem. How are they compared to the automatic ones?


 a lever Pavoni will fit under a cupboard no problem, will last for ever, keep its value and is easily fixable. If you buy second hand and your budget will then have enough for a good second hand grinder Pav £250 and Grinder £250

Using a lever is more of an art form, its more rewarding, harder to master but a lot more satisfying, some people switch back to pressing buttons as they find it a challenge. having said there are lots of people on here who have switched from the machines you mention and don't go back because they enjoy the taste and challenge more.


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

jimbojohn55 said:


> a lever Pavoni will fit under a cupboard no problem, will last for ever, keep its value and is easily fixable. If you buy second hand and your budget will then have enough for a good second hand grinder Pav £250 and Grinder £250
> 
> Using a lever is more of an art form, its more rewarding, harder to master but a lot more satisfying, some people switch back to pressing buttons as they find it a challenge. having said there are lots of people on here who have switched from the machines you mention and don't go back because they enjoy the taste and challenge more.


 I should mention that buying used is not really an option where I live. Lever machines are very rare, and I would like the dealer warranty for semi-automatic machines (plus they don't really go any cheaper than new ones).


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## Tonino (Mar 26, 2018)

Just get the Sage Barista and you will be fine, for home espresso it's great.


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## Bacms (Jul 25, 2019)

I would get a gaggia classic and use the rest of the money to buy a grinder


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Forget about pre-ground coffee, you'll never be happy with it and it stales very very quickly.

Aim to spend at least half your budget on a good grinder and buy freshly roasted beans from a reputable source. Plenty can be found advertised on this forum.

The BE would be the better option in this case, or a Gaggia Classic and s/h grinder combo. £500 should get you something pretty decent.


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

Tonino said:


> Just get the Sage Barista and you will be fine, for home espresso it's great.


 Yea, I guess in the end it doesn't matter much as a "starter" machine 



Bacms said:


> I would get a gaggia classic and use the rest of the money to buy a grinder


 I'm not a fan of the design on that one.

As an alternative I can maybe get the Sage Duo Temp Pro + a decent grinder for around 500€. How does the DTP compare to the BE? And will this option get me a better result than having the integrated grinder of the BE?


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## Bacms (Jul 25, 2019)

dopefish said:


> Yea, I guess in the end it doesn't matter much as a "starter" machine
> 
> I'm not a fan of the design on that one.
> 
> As an alternative I can maybe get the Sage Duo Temp Pro + a decent grinder for around 500€. How does the DTP compare to the BE? And will this option get me a better result than having the integrated grinder of the BE?


 I am not familiar with the Sage machines but my guess is that the integrated grinder won't give you the adjustability and particle size consistency you will probably require to dial espresso. So a Sage Duo Temp Pro plus something like a baratza sette will be a better setup.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Bacms said:


> I am not familiar with the Sage machines but my guess is that the integrated grinder won't give you the adjustability and particle size consistency you will probably require to dial espresso. So a Sage Duo Temp Pro plus something like a baratza sette will be a better setup.


 I have a Sage DTP and a Sette, it's fine, but also very unlikely that the "particle size consistency" (I assume you mean size distribution) of a Sage grinder will be any worse.


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

Bacms said:


> I am not familiar with the Sage machines but my guess is that the integrated grinder won't give you the adjustability and particle size consistency you will probably require to dial espresso. So a Sage Duo Temp Pro plus something like a baratza sette will be a better setup.





MWJB said:


> I have a Sage DTP and a Sette, it's fine, but also very unlikely that the "particle size consistency﻿" (I assume you m﻿ean size distribution﻿﻿﻿) of a Sage grinder will be any worse.


 I take it the built in grinder doesn't have the same range as a standalone would? Since I'm doing french press when having multiple guests over, I would like one that works for both purposes.

What grinders can you recommend in the 250€/200£ price range?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dopefish said:


> I take it the built in grinder doesn't have the same range as a standalone would? Since I'm doing french press when having multiple guests over, I would like one that works for both purposes. What grinders can you recommend in the 250€/200£ price range?


 Probably no worse in range than a Sette. I brew most of my French press just coarser than espresso/finest end of drip, so either grinder mentioned could likely do both, For coarser French press (insulated press & longer steeps) you will need coarser grinds than that). But...you probably would be better off getting another cheap grinder for French press, so that you are not upsetting your espresso setting all the time. Switching grind settings can be a real faff on a lot of grinders.

Maybe a Zassenhaus Quito (holds about 40g), Bodum Bistro, Wilfa Svart, maybe even a Graef for French press?


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## Bacms (Jul 25, 2019)

MWJB said:


> I have a Sage DTP and a Sette, it's fine, but also very unlikely that the "particle size consistency" (I assume you mean size distribution) of a Sage grinder will be any worse.


 As I mentioned I don't have experience with that machine and have a inherent bias against integrated grinders which are normally terrible. But reading about it around the internet the integrated one seems to actually be the same as the smart grinder pro which actually seem to be well rated for the price so it is probably not a bad starting point. Sorry I hadn't realise this before. 
Both the Sage and Baratza mentioned so far will do both fine espresso and coarse for press although in my experience they always do better in one setting than the other. You will also have the hassle of dealing with retention of grounds and so on so as @MWJB mentioned it may not be a bad idea to get a second grinder just for press.


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## Tonino (Mar 26, 2018)

Well the Barista integrated grinder is absolutely fine for espresso, however if you want to grind for french press or drip better buy Sage Duo Temp Pro and SGP or Mignion or Baratza, whatever suits you and within the price range. Sage machines are good, only trouble is finding parts but this should not be a reason to stay away from them when buying new with 2 years guarantee or more depending where you buying from. When I was looking for a espresso machine I was in doubt between both and decided to buy separately, no regret so far. The beans are everything not the machine.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

A great grinder paired with a DTP is a brilliant combo. Really simple to use and I personally really like how they look. I'm often tempted to buy another but the other half would kill me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

Alright, good advice from everyone, so I've narrowed it down to either a Sage BE or DTP+grinder.

I actually have a small manual ceramic burr grinder for coarse grinds, so probably got that covered.

Guess I will see what I can get the best deal on


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

I've just picked up a used DTP for cheap so I'm back in the game. I'll likely just grab a used sage grinder for what i want it for.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

I just clicked buy on a Sage Barista Express. My decision came down to design, size/space (grinder + machine would clutter a lot on my small kitchen table), and personal needs. Hope I will be satisfied and not feel the need for a more versatile grinder!


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Stick to medium / dark roasts and you'll be fine with that grinder. I used to own a Sage smart grinder and it couldn't cope with light roasts or very fine grinding - it was channel city!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dopefish said:


> I just clicked buy on a Sage Barista Express. My decision came down to design, size/space (grinder + machine would clutter a lot on my small kitchen table), and personal needs. Hope I will be satisfied and not feel the need for a more versatile grinder!


 Just saw this thread and tried to get in before you purchased.....I see I am too late, when you look to moving it on in the near future perhaps I will get another chance to give some helpful advice.


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

lake_m said:


> Stick to medium / dark roasts and you'll be fine with that grinder. I used to own a Sage smart grinder and it couldn't cope with light roasts or very fine grinding - it was channel city!


 I prefer (medium) dark roasts, so hopefully I will be okay!



DavecUK said:


> Just saw this thread and tried to get in before you purchased.....I see I am too late, when you look to moving it on in the near future perhaps I will get another chance to give some helpful advice.


 Any reason I should want to move on from it in the "near future"? Haha. I can still cancel my order if you have some wisdom to share


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dopefish said:


> I'm in the market for my first espresso machine and my budget is around 600€~550£. What is the best machine I can get?
> 
> I have looked at Sage Barista Express (500€), Rancilio Silvia (530€), and Simonelli Oscar II (650€).
> 
> ...





dopefish said:


> I prefer (medium) dark roasts, so hopefully I will be okay!
> 
> Any reason I should want to move on from it in the "near future"? Haha. I can still cancel my order if you have some wisdom to share


 I quoted your first post in the thread and reading this it's clear you are aspiring to get the best you can and are willing to spend £600, which when you know almost nothing (no offence meant) is a very large sum of money. The fact that for 2 of the machines a separate grinder was not priced for is also telling. As if you go for an integrated grinder you will be getting a lesser machine than your aspirations desired.

The pro grinder pre ground comment you by now realise was incorrect and you absolutely can't do that., when you mention a design perspective you are quoting your preferred external look. It would be great if you could actually research and give consideration to the areas of capabilities, performance, construction, longevity and maintenance.. You did make a good move to reject a small Pavoni lever machine because they actually need a good grinder and more knowledge than you have to use successfully. I actually think they make a poor starter machine.

From experience I am fairly sure you won't be satisfied long term with the purchase based on the clear aspirations and willingness to spend £600 on a machine in your first post, normally when people know nothing they think £149 on a Dedica or something is a significant purchase and Gaggias are purchased by the cogniscenti. This is not saying they are not good, just that they are clearly not what you had in your minds eye.

You might be too young to remember, but 35+ years ago Rolex had two brands the "Air King" and the "Oyster Perpetual", the first was not a chronometer and was much cheaper, almost half the price (which even at half the price wasn't cheap). I knew many people who purchased an "Air King" when they really wanted an "Oyster Perpetual Chronometer". Eventually many of them did get the OP and took a huge hit on PXing the Air King (because they were hard to sell privately and dealers were doing you a favour to PX them and gave no discount on the new watch). Quite a few expressed the view that had they waited....the 600+ they paid for the Air King could have gone towards the Rolex and a £600 discount on a new Rolex was a fantastic deal.

 My advice...you're hot to trot and all excited at the moment...cancel the order, wait and learn a lot more. Knowledge will change what you think you want. You will end up with something you really like and enjoy using with little need to rapidly upgrade. The other route means:

"You have a good soul, and I hate giving good people bad news. Oh, don't worry about it. As soon as you step outside that door, you'll start feeling better. You'll remember you don't believe in any of this fate crap. You're in control of your own life, remember? Here, take a cookie. I promise, by the time you're done eating it, you'll feel right as rain."
_(The Oracle to Neo - The Matrix, 1999)_


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> I quoted your first post in the thread and reading this it's clear you are aspiring to get the best you can and are willing to spend £600, which when you know almost nothing (no offence meant) is a very large sum of money. The fact that for 2 of the machines a separate grinder was not priced for is also telling. As if you go for an integrated grinder you will be getting a lesser machine than your aspirations desired.
> 
> The pro grinder pre ground comment you by now realise was incorrect and you absolutely can't do that., when you mention a design perspective you are quoting your preferred external look. It would be great if you could actually research and give consideration to the areas of capabilities, performance, construction, longevity and maintenance.. You did make a good move to reject a small Pavoni lever machine because they actually need a good grinder and more knowledge than you have to use successfully. I actually think they make a poor starter machine.
> 
> ...


 Haha, excellent bit of wisdom! I will consider the cancellation. But I am interested in hearing what you would recommend me to look at (both for machine and grinder)? Yes, I could potentially increase my budget a little if that money goes a long way (the 600€ was set to match a recent compensation for a very delayed flight that I decided to spend to treat myself). And I do have a personality that allows for diving deep into things like this, which can be dangerous when your free time is limited, so I'm really trying to hold back here!


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## Tonino (Mar 26, 2018)

Hi,

I think you did just fine. It's not necessary to move forward unless something goes wrong with the set up. For a personal(family) use Sage machines are good enough to serve you many years, as most of other cheap like delonghi or gaggia, saeco, krups etc entry levels , however Sage is the Best in that class. Some other names like suggested here might get you a more professional and more deeper details about espresso world but it depends if you really need that. Any Sage product bought on discounted price is a real deal. Either way you cancel or keep you order, maybe you need to get separate machine and grinder , that's all. Machine itself is capable to produce really good espresso, let's said you decide to keep it and after a some times you want to deep dive into the caffeine world then all you need is an advance grinder. So you keep your barista express and buy a separate grinder but you can still use the build in grinder for a decaf beans or family member prefer lighter roasts for example, or perhaps you may never need to upgrade.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dopefish said:


> Haha, excellent bit of wisdom! I will consider the cancellation. But I am interested in hearing what you would recommend me to look at (both for machine and grinder)? Yes, I could potentially increase my budget a little if that money goes a long way (the 600€ was set to match a recent compensation for a very delayed flight that I decided to spend to treat myself). And I do have a personality that allows for diving deep into things like this, which can be dangerous when your free time is limited, so I'm really trying to hold back here!


 The best advice for now is to cancel, wait and *learn*.....then make a considered decision. Think about what you really want and need the machine to do. There is a review site link in my signature,* in no way am I suggesting any of those machines *and I have reviewed over 50 or 60 machines in the last 20 years. The review site is new, it's simply a wordpress blog where I can dump the reviews and it's easy to update, can be read on a smartphone and linked to videos I used to do them on .pdf files which was never satisfactory. Look at my vids on youtube and in the reviews, the internal tours of machines and learn. On my you tube there are many videos, all can teach you something.

Enjoy....


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

Tonino said:


> Hi,
> 
> I think you did just fine. It's not necessary to move forward unless something goes wrong with the set up. For a personal(family) use Sage machines are good enough to serve you many years, as most of other cheap like delonghi or gaggia, saeco, krups etc entry levels , however Sage is the Best in that class. Some other names like suggested here might get you a more professional and more deeper details about espresso world but it depends if you really need that. Any Sage product bought on discounted price is a real deal. Either way you cancel or keep you order, maybe you need to get separate machine and grinder , that's all. Machine itself is capable to produce really good espresso, let's said you decide to keep it and after a some times you want to deep dive into the caffeine world then all you need is an advance grinder. So you keep your barista express and buy a separate grinder but you can still use the build in grinder for a decaf beans or family member prefer lighter roasts for example, or perhaps you may never need to upgrade.


 I could get the Simonelli Oscar II + Grinta grinder for 800€ new vs the 500€ I payed for the Sage BE. Would that give me an equally better result or should more be invested in the grinder to feel a difference?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dopefish said:


> I could get the Simonelli Oscar II + Grinta grinder for 800€ new vs the 500€ I payed for the Sage BE. Would that give me an equally better result or should more be invested in the grinder to feel a difference?


 I tried I really did


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> I tried I really did


 Hehe, you did well, but I really don't want to go swimming in the deep end (for now)!


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## Bacms (Jul 25, 2019)

I think what @DavecUK is trying to say is that you are looking at equipment hoping it will give you great coffee and solve all your problems. In reality you should probably invest a bit more of time trying to understand what you are looking in your coffee and then decide what you need to get better. 
In my opinion you haven't made a bad purchase, there is nothing wrong with the equipment you choose and with a bit of time investment and good beans will still give you better results that what you can probably get anywhere on any of the chains on the high street. So don't fret too much about choice of equipment the point is you will almost certainly be putting the machine for sale and get something that fits you. Could you have chosen that machine to start with and save money, possibly, but you may also find out this espresso business isn't really your thing and drop it completely. There is still an argument to be made that if you purchase a good machine you will get a better resale value for it anyway but you need to start somewhere


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Don't look too far down the rabbit hole. If your learning coffee, stick with the sage for the next year and see how you feel after that  nothing wrong with them imo

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

I advised two people to buy sage barista express's when they were £360 a good few months ago and both are completely in love with their machines still and producing great coffee. Neither would justify an upgrade and are totally happy with what they bought, they are aware of it's limitations which I tried to point out at the time, anything lighter than medium roast is a no go and steaming can be a little laboured. 18 month warranty left means they have peace of mind and it also looks great.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

Bacms said:


> I think what @DavecUK is trying to say is that you are looking at equipment hoping it will give you great coffee and solve all your problems. In reality you should probably invest a bit more of time trying to understand what you are looking in your coffee and then decide what you need to get better.
> In my opinion you haven't made a bad purchase, there is nothing wrong with the equipment you choose and with a bit of time investment and good beans will still give you better results that what you can probably get anywhere on any of the chains on the high street. So don't fret too much about choice of equipment the point is you will almost certainly be putting the machine for sale and get something that fits you. Could you have chosen that machine to start with and save money, possibly, but you may also find out this espresso business isn't really your thing and drop it completely. There is still an argument to be made that if you purchase a good machine you will get a better resale value for it anyway but you need to start somewhere


 Your last sentence is key here--I have to start somewhere. And I can't possibly know where I want to take it in the future, which is why I was looking for buying advice 



joey24dirt said:


> Don't look too far down the rabbit hole. If your learning coffee, stick with the sage for the next year and see how you feel after that
> 
> 
> 
> ...





KTD said:


> I advised two people to buy sage barista express's when they were £360 a good few months ago and both are completely in love with their machines still and producing great coffee. Neither would justify an upgrade and are totally happy with what they bought, they are aware of it's limitations which I tried to point out at the time, anything lighter than medium roast is a no go and steaming can be a little laboured. 18 month warranty left means they have peace of mind and it also looks great.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I think the BE will be a good starting point. It's the only machine in the "lower" price range that I actually like the look of, which is important for inspiring me to use it as much as possible. And, as @Tonino said, I can always get a secondary grinder in the future if the need arises.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Wouldn't you know...the neuralizer works....what was that we were talking about?


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> Wouldn't you know...the neuralizer works....what was that we were talking about?


 ? I don't know, i'm still working on a way out the train station. ?


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

Sooooooooo...

I ended up cancelling my order. For multiple reasons (not that I don't think the Sage would have me happy).

Instead, I have decided to look for a good grinder to begin with, one that I can use for both my moka pot and french press, then move on to espresso if a good deal on a machine I like pops up.

So my question is now what grinder? It has to be future proof (espresso) but also able to do french press fairly well (not necessarily extremely coarse grinds).

I found some offers on Mazzer grinders that seem to be well-liked:

Mazzer Mini Manual Doser - 350£

Mazzer Super Jolly Manual Doser - 500£

I like the small size of the Mini, but how does it perform compared to the larger/improved blades of the Super Jolly? Is it worth the almost 50% premium?

Also, never having tried dosers, can they work without a portafilter/basket?

For 500£ there's also the Niche Zero, but I haven't been able to find any warranty information on that one, which holds me back.

And finally, can I have some other recommendations in this price range? 500£ is my absolute maximum budget.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

dopefish said:


> Sooooooooo...
> 
> I ended up cancelling my order. For multiple reasons (not that I don't think the Sage would have me happy).


 @DavecUK someone listened!!!


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

If you want to purchase new then there isn't much choice for back and forth ease of grinding. The Niche will do this easily and give you very good cup quality. It's also very small but has Mazzer Kony large conical burrs. I wouldn't worry about warranty either. I've had very good personal support from the Niche team. They're super keen to impress in that respect.


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## Bacms (Jul 25, 2019)

Glad you listened to be honest. Unfortunately grinders that do both brew and espresso well are scarce and often a compromise. On you price range you can also look at the Baratza vario, however the niche seems to be all the rave at the moment. The Mazzer are pretty much a one setting only as changing from espresso to coarse is way too painful


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Cooffe said:


> @DavecUK someone listened!!!


 Do you know what this means.....the neuralizer doesn't work...


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Bacms said:


> Glad you listened to be honest. Unfortunately grinders that do both brew and espresso well are scarce and often a compromise. On you price range you can also look at the Baratza vario, however the niche seems to be all the rave at the moment. The Mazzer are pretty much a one setting only as changing from espresso to coarse is way too painful


 I have a sneaky suspicion, however, that once an espresso machine is purchased, a hand grinder will likely be bought for pourover/drip. So a Mazzer until they get an espresso machine will be fine, and then the Mazzer can be used for the espresso machine, and a cheap hand grinder purchased (maybe an Aergrind/Feldgrind) for the pourover.

I found that as soon as I had my Espresso machine, my brew/drip coffee consumption reduced massively.


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

lake_m said:


> If you want to purchase new then there isn't much choice for back and forth ease of grinding. The Niche will do this easily and give you very good cup quality. It's also very small but has Mazzer Kony large conical burrs. I wouldn't worry about warranty either. I've had very good personal support from the Niche team. They're super keen to impress in that respect.


 I found a warranty statement of one year only. I'm a bit worried about buying a grinder from a relatively new brand if they can't guarantee that it still works after just one year.



Bacms said:


> Glad you listened to be honest. Unfortunately grinders that do both brew and espresso well are scarce and often a compromise. On you price range you can also look at the Baratza vario, however the niche seems to be all the rave at the moment. The Mazzer are pretty much a one setting only as changing from espresso to coarse is way too painful


 Hmm good to know. As mentioned, I do have a small manual grinder for very coarse grinds, however, it's a pain for anything other than french press.
How is the Vario better than e.g. the Mazzer Mini? Only in changing settings frequently? They cost the same where I live.


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

Cooffe said:


> I have a sneaky suspicion, however, that once an espresso machine is purchased, a hand grinder will likely be bought for pourover/drip. So a Mazzer until they get an espresso machine will be fine, and then the Mazzer can be used for the espresso machine, and a cheap hand grinder purchased (maybe an Aergrind/Feldgrind) for the pourover.
> 
> I found that as soon as I had my Espresso machine, my brew/drip coffee consumption reduced massively.


 I have a Hario Skerton manual grind, but it's not very ergonomical and takes forever to grind enough coffee for anything above 2 cups.


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## Bacms (Jul 25, 2019)

dopefish said:


> Hmm good to know. As mentioned, I do have a small manual grinder for very coarse grinds, however, it's a pain for anything other than french press.
> How is the Vario better than e.g. the Mazzer Mini﻿? Only in changing settings freq﻿uently? They cost the same where I live.


 The Mazzer has slightly larger burrs but I am not sure you would be able to tell the difference between the two. The main differences are more on that the Baratza is more targeted at home users while the Mazzer is more of a small cafe machine. This means slight better build quality on the mazzer but at the cost of footprint and usability. The baratza is a stepped grinder with micro/macro adjusters on the front making it easier to change grind setting which combined with low grounds retention (although definitely not zero or anything close to it) makes it close to ideal if you frequently need to change between espresso and brew methods. The mazzer on the other is stepless and a bit of a pain if you need to dial large grinding differences so I would say it is pretty good as an espresso only grinder. 
That being said I ended up buying a hand grinder to use at work with my aeropress even though I have a Vario but that only requires 14/16g of coffee so it is no big task. If I had to constantly grind 60g of coffee I may have a different idea.

As for warranty most of the products sold on the UK only have a single year warranty as that is what the law requires you to have so I wouldn't worry too much about it. In fact does any of the others actually come with more than a year of warranty from the manufacturer? It may be worth for you to pay a visit to bella barista and actually see this things in action as again I am not certain you are quite sure what you are looking for at the moment.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

If you can afford the Niche buy it.


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

Bacms said:


> The Mazzer has slightly larger burrs but I am not sure you would be able to tell the difference between the two. The main differences are more on that the Baratza is more targeted at home users while the Mazzer is more of a small cafe machine. This means slight better build quality on the mazzer but at the cost of footprint and usability. The baratza is a stepped grinder with micro/macro adjusters on the front making it easier to change grind setting which combined with low grounds retention (although definitely not zero or anything close to it) makes it close to ideal if you frequently need to change between espresso and brew methods. The mazzer on the other is stepless and a bit of a pain if you need to dial large grinding differences so I would say it is pretty good as an espresso only grinder. ﻿
> That being said I ended up buying a hand grinder to use at work with my aeropress even though I have a Vario but that only requires 14/16g of coffee so it is no big task. If I had to constantly grind 60g of coffee I may have a different idea.
> 
> As for warranty most of the products sold on the UK only have a single year warranty as that is what the law requires you to have so I wouldn't worry too much about it. In fact does any of the others actually come with more than a year of warranty from the manufacturer? It may be worth for you to pay a visit to bella barista and actually see this things in action as again I am not certain you are quite sure what you are looking for at the moment.


 Thanks for the info. I guess I can't get the best of both worlds!

I live in Denmark, here the standard warranty period is 2 years from the dealer by law and sometimes more from the manufacturer.


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

Jony said:


> If you can afford the Niche buy it.


 Maybe when they stop the crowdfunding business.

I'm currently looking at the Eureka Mignon series. They seem to fit my needs. Trying to decide between the Silenzio and the Specialita (Perfetto grind dial seems gimmicky, even though it could be useful). Does the 50mm vs 55mm burrs matter in any other way than grind speeds? How are these with price/quality compared to e.g. Mazzer and Macap? The silenzio is 300£ and the Specialita 365£.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

dopefish said:


> Maybe when they stop the crowdfunding business.
> I'm currently looking at the Eureka Mignon series. They seem to fit my needs. Trying to decide between the Silenzio and the Specialita (Perfetto grind dial seems gimmicky, even though it could be useful). Does the 50mm vs 55mm burrs matter in any other way than grind speeds? How are these with price/quality compared to e.g. Mazzer and Macap? The silenzio is 300£ and the Specialita 365£.


I currently have a Specialità, only had it a couple of days and bought as a stop gap until a grinder comes up on the forum that interests me, at the price I paid I probably won't lose any money(buying off forum members especially allows you to upgrade at very little if no loss at all. The Specialità is unbelievably quiet and solidly built, there is some minor clumping when taking it fine but at the price point it's very good. The niche is a better grinder without doubt but it does cost more and buying new would result in half of the warranty too. I don't think you'd regret the Specialità.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dopefish said:


> I found a warranty statement of one year only. I'm a bit worried about buying a grinder from a relatively new brand if they can't guarantee that it still works after just one year.
> 
> Hmm good to know. As mentioned, I do have a small manual grinder for very coarse grinds, however, it's a pain for anything other than french press.
> How is the Vario better than e.g. the Mazzer Mini? Only in changing settings frequently? They cost the same where I live.


 Do you apply the one year warranty principle to all your white goods too.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dopefish said:


> Maybe when they stop the crowdfunding business.
> 
> I'm currently looking at the Eureka Mignon series. They seem to fit my needs. Trying to decide between the Silenzio and the Specialita (Perfetto grind dial seems gimmicky, even though it could be useful). Does the 50mm vs 55mm burrs matter in any other way than grind speeds? How are these with price/quality compared to e.g. Mazzer and Macap? The silenzio is 300£ and the Specialita 365£.


 End of crowd funding won't mean you'll get a longer warranty...

Niche is Into 1000 plus grinders I think guessing world wide. Take from thst what you will.

Mignons and niche should last you a while but there are more electric gizmos in the mignon if you are concerned about longevity, no digital screen to go wrong etc.

Yes burrs size matters 50mm or 55mm are significantly different in quality to the niche larger conical burrs, IMHO. And the adjustment mech on the mignons is poor IMHO.


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> Yes burrs size matters 50mm or 55mm are significantly different in quality to the niche larger conical burrs, IMHO.﻿﻿﻿﻿﻿ And the adjustment mech on the mignons is poor IMHO.


 Yeah it took me moving from a Mignon to the Niche to realise this, the micrometric adjustment thing isn't all it's sold to be.


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

Thanks for the replies 

I guess the Niche is the grinder to get if you can cope with its looks. Not sure I'm there yet ?

Does it really allow you to go from french press to espresso and back eadily and with no issues?


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

dopefish said:


> Thanks for the replies
> 
> I guess the Niche is the grinder to get if you can cope with its looks. Not sure I'm there yet ?
> 
> Does it really allow you to go from french press to espresso and back eadily and with no issues?


 Yep.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@dopefish why not see if a member local to you has kit you can go and have a look at...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dopefish said:


> Thanks for the replies
> 
> I guess the Niche is the grinder to get if you can cope with its looks. Not sure I'm there yet ?
> 
> Does it really allow you to go from french press to espresso and back eadily and with no issues?


 Yes


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Double yes.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Jony said:


> Double yes.


 Actually that was triple ?


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

lake_m said:


> Yep.





Jony said:


> Double yes.





lake_m said:


> Actually that was triple ?


 Plenty to go around 

Seems like the Niche is the grinder to get. Still, not sure if I'm ready to throw 500£ at it. Too many uncertainties (new product, 1 year warranty, Brexit etc.).

Currently also having a Compak K3 Touch Advanced for 300£ in mind. Anyone have experience with changing between grind settings on this one?



DavecUK said:


> @dopefish why not see if a member local to you has kit you can go and have a look at...


 Only an option if you have a stray Dane about.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dopefish said:


> Plenty to go around
> 
> Seems like the Niche is the grinder to get. Still, not sure if I'm ready to throw 500£ at it. Too many uncertainties (new product, 1 year warranty, Brexit etc.).
> 
> ...


 You keep saying new product and warranty , if there were major problems with it then these would tend to surface in the first 3 months ( like Baratza grinders ) . As with alot of grinders , they are pretty bomb proof in the home environment. Just out of interest how ling does a product need to be in the market place before it it trustworthy and how much of a warranty does ones need?

Brexit - your a Dane , let us worry about that, we are the ones that have decided on self immolation 

There are other grinders for sure out there, it's just given what you are looking for ( brewed and espresso , mi animal retention ), you are going to keep people saying niche. Anyhow just decide , how much you want to spend and what you want it to do.

Run with hopper , single dose , just espresso or brewed as well. They will lead you to a grinder you want to get and the cash you want to spend.

Like any hopper fed espresso grinder a k3 will have retention each time you dial back and forth and it's adjustment mech isn't easily set up to go back and forth between coarse and fine as repeatable as the niche. And the burr size and quality will not be the same as the Niche . It's a decaf type commercial grinder versus a home single dosing one.

I get not wanting to spend £500 on a grinder that is fine, just say your budget ( £300? ) and accept that it will be a compromise on the things you want from it.

=


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Another option would be a dedicated grinder for espresso & another for pourover so you don't have to change back & forth when you fancy a different brew method. You could get a mignon & wilfa svart for less than a niche.


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> Another option would be a dedicated grinder for espresso & another for pourover so you don't have to change back & forth when you fancy a different brew method. You could get a mignon & wilfa svart for less than a niche.


 I thought about the option, but it would end up very close to the Niche, and in the end I would prefer to have one superior product over two inferior ones.



Mrboots2u said:


> You keep saying new product and warranty , if there were major problems with it then these would tend to surface in the first 3 months ( like Baratza grinders ) . As with alot of grinders , they are pretty bomb proof in the home environment. Just out of interest how ling does a product need to be in the market place before it it trustworthy and how much of a warranty does ones need?


 For a premium product I would expect at least 2 years warranty.



Mrboots2u said:


> Brexit - your a Dane , let us worry about that, we are the ones that have decided on self immolation


 Well, I'm the one who has to worry if something in my machine breaks and I need it serviced or to acquire spare parts 

Buuuut... in the end you are all right. I would not be satisfied with any of the more affordable grinders. So I've bit the bullet and placed an order on the Niche. After rigorously questioning James about my concerns, of course.

I'm confident I will be happy with it, even though the price was a bit above my comfort zone.

Now, will I have to remodel my kitchen to match it spaceship looks or just accept this little curiosity as it is?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@dopefish. You are certainly learning quickly, now just remember you will want a dual boiler, if you go entry level the Expobar Dual boiler is best avoided, it's an old design and well overdue a complete overhaul, as for a little more/same better machines are available.

Sounds like you might end up with a setup out of the gate that will actually deliver great spro and other drinks for a long time without the feeling you need to upgrade and without the sackcloth and ashes experience/self flagellation with lesser equipment for a year or two that some believe is a rite of passage.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Read up on here then shop around @dopefish your best getting hands on at Bella Barista, takes a while to really choose, and there is nothing quite like seeing something in the flesh and being able to compare it side by side with other machines. Although part of the fun is often upgrading down the line, many people buy in haste or on trend, best to take your time and listen to a range of opinions.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

jimbojohn55 said:


> Read up on here then shop around @dopefish your best getting hands on at Bella Barista, takes a while to really choose, and there is nothing quite like seeing something in the flesh and being able to compare it side by side with other machines. Although part of the fun is often upgrading down the line, many people buy in haste or on trend, best to take your time and listen to a range of opinions.


Do BB have a Danish branch?


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> @dopefish. You are certainly learning quickly, now just remember you will want a dual boiler, if you go entry level the Expobar Dual boiler is best avoided, it's an old design and well overdue a complete overhaul, as for a little more/same better machines are available.
> 
> Sounds like you might end up with a setup out of the gate that will actually deliver great spro and other drinks for a long time without the feeling you need to upgrade and without the sackcloth and ashes experience/self flagellation with lesser equipment for a year or two that some believe is a rite of passage.


 I'm an avid black drinker so not sure a dual boiler will be used, apart from when having guests over. And they are mostly the kind that wouldn't be able to tell the difference between instant coffee and a fresh roast, so it would be a waste ?



jimbojohn55 said:


> Read up on here then shop around @dopefish your best getting hands on at Bella Barista, takes a while to really choose, and there is nothing quite like seeing something in the flesh and being able to compare it side by side with other machines. Although part of the fun is often upgrading down the line, many people buy in haste or on trend, best to take your time and listen to a range of opinions.


 Yeah, no rush for now. Will take my time with the grinder and press coffee until the itch for espresso has to be scratched.



ashcroc said:


> Do BB have a Danish branch?


 Never heard of it


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dopefish said:


> I'm an avid black drinker so not sure a dual boiler will be used, apart from when having guests over. And they are mostly the kind that wouldn't be able to tell the difference between instant coffee and a fresh roast, so it would be a waste ?


 The reason for having a dual boiler is not whether you have black white or whatever coffee......but then you need to do some reading up on the various types of machines and their pros and cons.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

dopefish said:


> I'm an avid black drinker so not sure a dual boiler will be used, apart from when having guests over. And they are mostly the kind that wouldn't be able to tell the difference between instant coffee and a fresh roast, so it would be a waste ?
> 
> Yeah, no rush for now. Will take my time with the grinder and press coffee until the itch for espresso has to be scratched.


 i've been meaning to chip in, and say spend more than you want on the grinder, and less on the coffee machine - for your needs I think you've made a great investment.

My Niche is a few weeks from its first birthday, and it is worth three times what my coffee machine (second hand Gaggia Classic) is worth. I agonized over spending that much but it is such an eye opener and has made a huge improvement. I would love a dual boiler or a beautiful La Pavoni or Londinium, but as i also am only making one cup, twice a day economics do play into it ... :good:


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Agentb said:


> i've been meaning to chip in, and say spend more than you want on the grinder, and less on the coffee machine - for your needs I think you've made a great investment.
> 
> My Niche is a few weeks from its first birthday, and it is worth three times what my coffee machine (second hand Gaggia Classic) is worth. I agonized over spending that much but it is such an eye opener and has made a huge improvement. I would love a dual boiler or a beautiful La Pavoni or Londinium, but as i also am only making one cup, twice a day economics do play into it ... :good:


 No...No they don't


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## Junglebert (Jan 7, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> You might be too young to remember, but 35+ years ago Rolex had two brands the "Air King" and the "Oyster Perpetual", the first was not a chronometer and was much cheaper, almost half the price (which even at half the price wasn't cheap). I knew many people who purchased an "Air King" when they really wanted an "Oyster Perpetual Chronometer". Eventually many of them did get the OP and took a huge hit on PXing the Air King (because they were hard to sell privately and dealers were doing you a favour to PX them and gave no discount on the new watch). Quite a few expressed the view that had they waited....the 600+ they paid for the Air King could have gone towards the Rolex and a £600 discount on a new Rolex was a fantastic deal.


 Slightly odd, totally pointless and irrelevant comparison there. The air king was always a desirable watch, with a Rolex in house movement . Later it became a certified chronograph, maybe it always was. Either way, it was an amazing watch no matter what Dave's mates made of it, and probably sells better than an OP now. The moral? Buy what you like, buy what you'll enjoy owning.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Casio calculator watch=buy what you might need to work out if you can pay the mortgage after spending too much on a coffee machine

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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

KTD said:


> Casio calculator watch=buy what you might need to work out if you can pay the mortgage after spending too much on a coffee machine
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


epic in all dimensions


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> No...No they don't


for some they do, especially if they have to buy new for some reason!


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Hasi said:


> for some they do, especially if they have to buy new for some reason!


Surely the la pav will pay for itself eventually in electric savings from it's quick heat up & lack of pump.


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

I have stumbled upon several used Ascaso Dream machines (non PID versions) for 100£ or less used. One of them is 6 years old and seller writes it has only been used 3 times total.

Based on the specs, I know it's not a good machine by any means. But would it be a good *starter/learner* at 100£? They sell for 400-500£ new.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

This is just how I feel. If someone gave me one (which I hope they never do), I wouldn't use it and would probably give it away as relatively little worth. I certainly wouldn't spend money on one.

Apologies in advance for any AD owners....I suppose I will also incur the wrath of some for stating how "I feel about them"


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Oh no it won't Helloooo


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