# Correct Times/Ratios



## Thufir (Jan 27, 2013)

OK

I am dialled in at around 2oz from 14g in 22 - 25 seconds and getting OKish shots most of the time.

I've just received Callum Ts pressure gauge to check my OPV pressure which I have already done the 270 turn on.

However, when I started reading into brew ratios by weight I got very confused, so I am not sure how to go forwards, and I've got 3 questions;

1. What is the "standard" weight of a double?

2. What is the correct time range to pull a shot for and do I count from switching on or from when pour from the filter starts?

3. How many g of Coffee - I am aiming for 14 every time.

I know preferences come into this but to be "scientific" I'd like to get a proper baseline and work on getting the best shot using those standards and then when I feel I am proficient I'll decide what I think I need to change.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Well I would say forget about time. Work to a brew ratio, everyone will like a different brew ratio but start at 1.65 and work from there. Taste and adjust the grind until you get balanced shots at the target ratio. The you can try a new ratio and see how that works for your palette. 2oz will probably be over the volume at that ratio.

The basket will determine the amount you should be putting in. I tend to go 16g in a 15g VST which is the upper limit of the basket parameters.


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

ok,here are my thoughts or what i tend to do,

doses can vary from 14g to 20g for a double depending on which make of basket you use,i use a 18g VST and dose 18g,

shots tend to fall between 25 and 30 seconds but can be either side of these ranges depending on beans and when blonding occurs and personal taste,

rather than aiming vor volume,eg 2oz or 60ml its better to try and get a brew ratio sorted,i tend to aim for 1:6 so if i dose 18g in my basket i will tend to stop the pull to get 29g in the shot glass which can result in anything between 1-2oz but tend to be about 1.5oz and it tends to be about 29-31 second time wise,

obviously there are more things to factor in like personal tastebuds all being slightly different,different beans,different equipment but i suppose that it all adds to the quest for the "god shots"


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## Thufir (Jan 27, 2013)

Without a VST would I need to vary much? I currently have a standard Gaggia non pressurised double basket which I aim to put as close to 14g in, so should I look to get 23g from that and adjust grind and tamp to home in time and taste wise?


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

yep,sounds like a good place to start,you can also change the perimeters to get a good brew ratio by updosing aswell instead of going too fine with grind if your shot is running fast say under 25 seconds,so for example on my gaggia i ended up going to 16g for some beans,its all about getting to a decent brew ratio which suits your taste using grind,time and dose,if your tamp is consistent you should be able to just concentrate on the former 3 to get where you need to be,remember not to get too hung up on set formulas cos your taste will vary from mine and the next person,best just having fun tasting all the different extractions till you get where it suits you:act-up:


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## Thufir (Jan 27, 2013)

I've just had a brew ratio of 1.6 in 13 seconds









just did the OPV mod and my pressure had been low from when I guessed the mod. I had about 8 static now it's 10.2 so I'm going to up the grind and dose and see where I get.


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## CoffeeExmoor (Mar 10, 2011)

Is there any particular guidance on dosing the portafilter out there?

I am using the standard Gaggia double basket in my Classic and currently dose with 20g. The reason for this is that I then get the small imprint of the shower screen screw in the puck after the shot. I read somewhere in one of the threads that this is what you should be aiming for - and I also get a nice dry puck. Using an appropriate grind and consistent tamp (Espro) I also get a good weight ratio and finished shot. If I use a lower dose, say 16 or 18gm then I can still grind to get a good shot but finish up with a very wet puck. Yet I notice that many contributors seem to dose with 14 or 16gm - a considerable saving in beans! Am I doing something wrong here?

Incidentally - and hence the link to this thread - I am using chimsinties chart for brew ratio and weight, which appears in the thread entitled Volume vs Brew Ratio & weight.


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

This is an impossible question to answer as its all personal choice. If you use a VST basket they are designed to go 1g either way in terms of dose. I used to updose the 14g gaggia basket to 17g for my taste.

Ratio again is preference. I prefer around 1:1.5 so 18g dose and around 27g out give or take. You could go more ristretto and look for a 1:1 ratio or more towards the standard beyond 1:2 ratio and even further if you wish.

Timing is generally about 25 seconds. Play with times between 22 and 30 seconds, but I wouldn't drift too far either way.

My advice would be to try different dose, brew ratios and times. Change one variable at a time and see what results you favour. The most important thing is not to get sucked into a 'standard' as their isn't one.


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

Also in a response to wet/dry pucks. It doesn't really matter. If it tastes good then don't worry about the puck being wet.


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## Thufir (Jan 27, 2013)

I managed to get some success last night - I dosed 15.2g which with a target ratio of 1.65 means I was looking for 25.1g out. I hit the stop button at 25g but it spat out an extra 3g and I arrived at 28.2g in 32 seconds, so by my calculation (not allowing for the first few seconds being pressure overcoming the grind) I would have had 25.2g in 28.25 seconds which I would have been very happy with.

Never mind that it was bitter as hell! - perhaps hitting stop a little bit earlier and getting the right weight would solve that anyway!


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## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

Need to factor in that most scales will also have a small delay in displaying updated weight.

I use the £5 ebay ones and always stop the extraction about 3g short of where i want to end to allow for the small continuation in extraction plus this catch up.

In response to other poster, 20g is a bit much for classic i think. I always had concerns as to whether the screw indentation could impact the puck stability overall so would slightly downdose.


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## mym (Sep 15, 2009)

Thufir said:


> 1. What is the "standard" weight of a double?
> 
> 2. What is the correct time range to pull a shot for and do I count from switching on or from when pour from the filter starts?
> 
> 3. How many g of Coffee - I am aiming for 14 every time.


I always take as my baseline the Espresso Italiano technical specification.

"The following are some important conditions to obtain Espresso Italiano - though these alone would not be adequate to fulfil the quality requirements":

• Necessary portion of ground coffee 7 g ± 0,5

• Exit temperature of water from the unit 88°C ± 2°C

• Temperature of the drink in the cup 67°C ± 3°C

• Entry water pressure 9 bar ± 1

• Percolation time 25 seconds ± 2,5 seconds

• Viscosity at 45°C > 1,5 mPa s

• Total fat > 2 mg/ml

• Caffeine

• Millilitres in the cup (including foam) 25 ml ± 2,5


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## rmat (Aug 25, 2012)

My baseline is 14g but this is only a starting point. I find a slight change in dosage and grind are required as the roasted bean ages from 5 to 10 days (the only drinkable window really).

The measure of a good home barista is being able to make two sequential shots that are acceptable and taste the same. Many times I'm able tell if it will be a good shot just by looking at the flow.


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## Thufir (Jan 27, 2013)

OK, just had a fantastic Coffee, and I know I can do better too!

14.2g in meaning I wanted 23.43 with a 1.65 ratio. I got 24 out in 24 seconds. It was lovely. Maybe very slightly bitter but a very nice Capuccino.

I used new beans and had to adjust grind time but not grind and I'm very happy


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## JohnF88 (Feb 25, 2013)

Sorry to jump in on your thread here but I also have a bit of confusion with ratios. I have a Gaggia Classic and just recieved an MC2 today so I am trying to dial it in correctly.

I have been dosing out about 14g and adjusting the grind to try and pull a double shot in around 25-30 seconds. According to the ratio of 1.65 a 14g basket should be coming out at around 23g. Is the 23g the ideal weight of a single shot or a double shot? Because my double shots are coming out at closer to 60g. With it being 60ml of liquid I would've thought that it would be difficult to make a double shot weigh as little as 23g? I know the density is diferent from that of water but still its a big difference. These are taking between 25-30 seconds to come through and I'm tamping to 30lbs (using a bathroom scale which probably isn't massively accurate but better than guessing).

Also stirring with a paperclip before tamping. A question on that, once I've finished stirring it seems to leave a lot of channels in the gind where the paperclip has been dragged through so I will give the portafilter a tap in the countertop to flatten it out before tamping. Is that a good idea or not? I know tapping after tamping is bad but not sure on the effect if you do it beforehand. I would've thought it would help to distibute things but I don't know what I'm doing really.


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## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

apparently you shouldn't tap before tamping as the grinds will settle and form a barrier which may encourage channelling.

not really sure if you need to do the wdt thing, but if you do, try a safety pin rather than a paper clip as it's much narrower and shouldn't leave grooves in the coffee.


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## SweeneyTodd (Jan 4, 2013)

JohnF88 said:


> Also stirring with a paperclip before tamping. A question on that, once I've finished stirring it seems to leave a lot of channels in the gind where the paperclip has been dragged through so I will give the portafilter a tap in the countertop to flatten it out before tamping. Is that a good idea or not? I know tapping after tamping is bad but not sure on the effect if you do it beforehand. I would've thought it would help to distibute things but I don't know what I'm doing really.


I'm far from being an expert but I stir with a paper clip, tap the bottom of the PF once to settle the grinds then tamp. Seems to work OK for me


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

Volume isn't a great way to measure as it depends on how much crema you are developing. It's meant to be a weight/weight ratio.

I generally pour 18g doubles, and the brew duration and weight depends on the beans. Get yourself in the right ballpark, but experiment and adjust to taste later. I'll drop to 14g for very dark roasts.

I don't muck about too much with preparation; fill, level, tap a few times, tamp light and level.


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

I always tap before I tamp but never aftwerwards. Tapping the PF with grounds fresh out of the grinder prior to tamping helps to settle coffee into the gaps, not create them, as far as I can see.

Steve.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

JohnF88 said:


> I have been dosing out about 14g and adjusting the grind to try and pull a double shot in around 25-30 seconds. According to the ratio of 1.65 a 14g basket should be coming out at around 23g. Is the 23g the ideal weight of a single shot or a double shot? Because my double shots are coming out at closer to 60g. With it being 60ml of liquid I would've thought that it would be difficult to make a double shot weigh as little as 23g?.


The ratio does not matter or single/double as it is merely weight in vs weight out. 60g out of 14 is far too much, if you get it down to 23g you will notice a huge improvement in taste. Remember, more volume does not mean stronger taste.


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## JohnF88 (Feb 25, 2013)

So I take it in order to get the weight of the finished double shot down to about 23g I will need to make the grind significantly finer? Will this not then results in my shots taking a lot longer than the 25-30 seconds that they are currently taking? The procedure I am following at the moment is:

1. Grind 14g direct from MC2 into portafiler basket.

2. Use paperclip to break up grounds.

3. Tamp to 30lb pressure.

4. Pull shot to the 60ml line in my shot glass.

5. Weigh my shot.

I was allowing the dark portion of the shot to reach the 60ml line (so the crema would be sitting above that) but research leads me to believe this is incorrect and I should stop pulling the shot when the crema hits 60ml? I suppose this will go some way to explaining why my weights were so high.

Who knew cofffee could be so confusing!

Cheers for the advice thus far btw.


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

You should put scales under cup as it pours you can watch the weight, stop pour when weight reaches the 23g mark.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JohnF88 (Feb 25, 2013)

might need to invest in a smaller set of scales then. any particular recommendations for a small set of digital scales that will fit under a shot glass on a gaggia classic drip tray?


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

There's loads on eBay, just search for jewellery scales, best to get ones that do 0.1g

They're only about £5 and are great for measuring your pours.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

I suspect you will need to go a bit finer, but not massively as you will then extract less liquid so there will be less time during the extraction. Yes, ebay £5 ones will do the job fine. Do measure by weight it makes a huge difference!


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