# Water quality



## Holmes

Hello

New here. Just wondering how important is the water quality in determining the results of an espresso? Is London water particularly bad (or good?). Does everyone use water filters?

Thanks


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## MildredM

You will find a lot of people here use bottled water


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## urbanbumpkin

London water is not great. Try something like volvic.


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## Holmes

Thanks for the advice. Is this still recommended with the sage duo temp with its filter?


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## Daren

Have a look inside your kettle - you'll see just how bad the scale build up can be. The London water is very hard. I filter my kettle water through a Britta cartridge filter and still get significant scale build up. You certainly don't want that inside your coffee machine.

Even with a built in filter, I'd still use bottled water or a decent plumbed in filter for my Espresso machine water supply.


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## Holmes

Thanks Daren, good advice.


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## Craigy_bear

With bottled water, are there not suspended solids (mineral content) which will also damage the boiler?


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## hotmetal

That's why you have to choose your bottled water carefully. Some are really hard (eg Buxton at 280mg/l TDS) and worse for an espresso machine than tap water depending on where you live. Some are too soft. Pure reverse osmosis water needs remineralising before you can safely use it. Some have the wrong minerals in to get the best from your coffee. Being in a bottle means nothing - having the correct composition is the thing. For instance Tesco Ashbeck is low TDS which will not damage your machine, but Volvic (slightly higher TDS but still below the scale threshold) makes a sweeter, juicier coffee. PH value has an effect too. Volvic, Waitrose Essential Stretton Hills or even a mix of the 2 is good for espresso.


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## MWJB

Craigy_bear said:


> With bottled water, are there not suspended solids (mineral content) which will also damage the boiler?


There are minerals in pretty much all water, bottled or tap, unless demineralised. A little mineral content is deemed to be better for boilers & scaling than a lot of mineral content, or none (pH drops over time turning the water acidic).

Long story short: Volvic, Waitrose Essential Stretton Hills (not the 5L containers of Princes Gate), maybe mix the WE with a little Highland Spring (20-25%), or even a Volvic:WE mix.


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## Nopapercup

What number should I be looking at on the label of the bottle? I'm in France so use Cristaline because it tastes nice and it's cheap.


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## MWJB

Look mainly at Bicarbonate say 40-80mg/L (can go lower for brewed coffee, water heated in a kettle), I can't see figures for Cristaline, but the ads say "high in bicarbonates".


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## Nopapercup

MWJB said:


> Look mainly at Bicarbonate say 40-80mg/L (can go lower for brewed coffee, water heated in a kettle), I can't see figures for Cristaline, but the ads say "high in bicarbonates".


Yes 195 so is that too high?


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## MWJB

•Bicarbonates: 290 Mg/l

•Calcium Ion: 39 Mg/l

•Fluoride:

•Magnesium: 25 Mg/l

•Potassium: 1.5 Mg/l

•Sulfates: 5 Mg/l

•Sodium: 19 Mg/l

Says 290 here...drink it as it is, but there is undoubtedly better water to make coffee with.


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## DoubleShot

MWJB said:


> Waitrose Essential Stretton Hills (not the 5L containers of Princes Gate)


Has this changed recently as I've got a 5 litre bottle of Waitrose Essential that says it is Stretton Hills


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## MWJB

@DoubleShot you have the good stuff, maybe that's normal, but the website still says Princes Gate...http://www.waitrose.com/shop/DisplayProductFlyout?productId=499460


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## DoubleShot

Ah, okay cool. Panic over! Thought I may have picked up the wrong stuff. Didn't realise there were two different types of Waitrose Essential water.


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## Nopapercup

MWJB said:


> •Bicarbonates: 290 Mg/l
> 
> •Calcium Ion: 39 Mg/l
> 
> •Fluoride:
> 
> •Magnesium: 25 Mg/l
> 
> •Potassium: 1.5 Mg/l
> 
> •Sulfates: 5 Mg/l
> 
> •Sodium: 19 Mg/l
> 
> Says 290 here...drink it as it is, but there is undoubtedly better water to make coffee with.


so does a lower bicarbonate level result in better tasting coffee (espresso in my case)?


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## MWJB

Generally speaking too much bicarbonate will flatten off the flavour, mute acidity. Also, from a technical viewpoint, low bicarbonate, with a little higher proportion in hardness, will reduce scaling in your machine. Most sources suggest around 40-60mg/L bicarbonate (alkalinity) with ~1.3 to 2x that in hardness, say 70-100mg/L hardness to 40-60mg/L alkalinity. To put that in perspective, your water (whilst fairly normal for water generally) is more like 176:160.


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## MWJB

Nopapercup said:


> View attachment 26560
> 
> 
> so does a lower bicarbonate level result in better tasting coffee (espresso in my case)?


There seem to be at least 16 sources for Cristaline, so they may vary from one to another.


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## crmdgnly

I have been using bottled water because I was told it was better, but didn't know what to look for in the detail.

Is this any good?

I just thought calcium needed to be low.

Calcium	11mg

Magnesium	3mg

Potassium	2mg

Sodium	9mg

Bicarbonate	30mg

Chloride	12mg

Sulphate	9mg

Nitrate	10mg

Dry Residue at 180°C	80mg

pH (at source)	6.4


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## MWJB

crmdgnly said:


> I have been using bottled water because I was told it was better, but didn't know what to look for in the detail.
> 
> Is this any good?
> 
> I just thought calcium needed to be low.
> 
> Calcium	11mg
> 
> Magnesium	3mg
> 
> Potassium	2mg
> 
> Sodium	9mg
> 
> Bicarbonate	30mg
> 
> Chloride	12mg
> 
> Sulphate	9mg
> 
> Nitrate	10mg
> 
> Dry Residue at 180°C	80mg
> 
> pH (at source)	6.4


It's soft, a little lower than ideals, shouldn't scale, how does the coffee taste?


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## Nopapercup

Thanks for the info. Amazing how many elements there are to achieving good coffee


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## RDC8

The topic of water quality comes up here fairly frequently. Would this be a good "sticky"?


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## crmdgnly

MWJB said:


> It's soft, a little lower than ideals, shouldn't scale, how does the coffee taste?


Tastes fine with the minimal ability I have.

But I hadn't even considered different bottled water impacting on taste, although it's obvious I suppose. I was just working on the scale implications. That water is Asda Eden Falls 5 litre; although the specs are from the Asda web site rather than the label as I had decanted the last couple of litres into an empty bottle to reduce storage. I'll double check the reality of the labelling vs the web info when I buy some more.

I think I'll also try a taste test. I have some much higher in bicarbonate (268mg/litre) water where I work so that might be a good comparator


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## MWJB

crmdgnly said:


> Tastes fine with the minimal ability I have.
> 
> But I hadn't even considered different bottled water impacting on taste, although it's obvious I suppose. I was just working on the scale implications. That water is Asda Eden Falls 5 litre; although the specs are from the Asda web site rather than the label as I had decanted the last couple of litres into an empty bottle to reduce storage. I'll double check the reality of the labelling vs the web info when I buy some more.
> 
> I think I'll also try a taste test. I have some much higher in bicarbonate (268mg/litre) water where I work so that might be a good comparator


Asda Eden Falls is also available under the Tesco Ashbeck & Aqua Pura brands, it's Cumbrian water from Armathwaite.


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## hotmetal

I'm fairly sure, among other factors that Mark (MWJB) is better qualified to speak of than I, Dry Residue @ 180°C needs to be between 80-120mg/L to avoid scale. Unless someone know better?


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## MWJB

hotmetal said:


> I'm fairly sure, among other factors that Mark (MWJB) is better qualified to speak of than I, Dry Residue @ 180°C needs to be between 80-120mg/L to avoid scale. Unless someone know better?


You can go a bit higher (certainly ~150mg/L) on TDS/dry residue, absolute mg/L doesn't tell you as much as knowing how much is GH (general/total hardness made up of calcium & magnesium) and how much is KH (alkalinity from bicarbonate). I wouldn't say I was particularly qualified as such, but I have read up the findings/recommendations of those who are (who basically agree with each other).


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## hotmetal

Cheers Mark. It it's quite involved for non-chemists, I am glad someone has stated some brands that are recommended (Volvic, WE Stretton Hills etc) as well as given a full explanation for those who can follow it!


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## IggyK

I just brew filter coffee and use Sainsbury's Scottish Mountain water:

and when I'm lazy just end up going tap, luckily Midlands water is soft and comes somewhere from Wales.

I can't really tell the difference.

Although I did notice with a brew of Origin San Fermin Colombia through V60, produces a slightly salty/smokey coffee, nothing like the tasting notes of Orange Sherbet, Caramel, Berries and far from "incredibly sweet coffee" as they say on their websites.

Maybe I am doing something wrong?

Sainsbury's Scottish Mountain Water (Campsie Fells) mg/litres

Calcium

Magnesium

Potassium

Sodium

Bicarbonate

Sulphate

Nitrate

Chloride

Dry Residue at 180°C


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## MWJB

IggyK said:


> I just brew filter coffee and use Sainsbury's Scottish Mountain water:
> 
> and when I'm lazy just end up going tap, luckily Midlands water is soft and comes somewhere from Wales.
> 
> I can't really tell the difference.
> 
> Although I did notice with a brew of Origin San Fermin Colombia through V60, produces a slightly salty/smokey coffee, nothing like the tasting notes of Orange Sherbet, Caramel, Berries and far from "incredibly sweet coffee" as they say on their websites.
> 
> Maybe I am doing something wrong?
> 
> Sainsbury's Scottish Mountain Water (Campsie Fells) mg/litres
> 
> Calcium
> 
> Magnesium
> 
> Potassium
> 
> Sodium
> 
> Bicarbonate
> 
> Sulphate
> 
> Nitrate
> 
> Chloride
> 
> Dry Residue at 180°C
> 
> Depends to some degree on what water the roaster is using as a basis, but the water you are using is unlikely to reveal the cleaner, clearer flavours. More info on your v60 recipe would be good, but try a long steep (40min) French press, same grind as V60 and see what that turns up. Don't Sainsburys sell Volvic?


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## PaulL

These articles are many years old but might be useful

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/reverse-osmosis

http://coffeetimex.wikidot.com/ro-water-copper-corrosion

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/water-related-problems-and-why-i-installed-ro-paul-l


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## IggyK

Yes it does I might try Volvic.

The recipe is 14grams to 250ml of water. Rinse filter, bloom the grounds for 30 seconds and pour over to 250ml and let drip for 2:00min.

I have a standard kettle no gooseneck or no thermometer but plan on getting one, but I usually leave the kettle 5mins from boiling before pouring.


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## MWJB

IggyK said:


> Yes it does I might try Volvic.
> 
> The recipe is 14grams to 250ml of water. Rinse filter, bloom the grounds for 30 seconds and pour over to 250ml and let drip for 2:00min.
> 
> I have a standard kettle no gooseneck or no thermometer but plan on getting one, but I usually leave the kettle 5mins from boiling before pouring.


Try more like 15-16g of coffee.

Brew times seem a little short can you grind finer?

Try blooming longer (90sec) then adding the remaining brew water quickly (10sec) in a spiral, won't be as consistent & controllable as a gooseneck kettle, but you probably don't want to be doing longer pours with a regular kettle.

No need to wait for the kettle to cool after boiling, bloom straight away the kettle clicks off.


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## IggyK

I used the hario mini mill. 10 clicks away from tight. Looks something like the below.


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## MWJB

IggyK said:


> I used the hario mini mill. 10 clicks away from tight. Looks something like the below.


Grind finer until your brews hit more like 3:00


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## Elcee

How can one find out the quality of their tap water? I live in Edinburgh and people say its very soft here.


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## PaulL

An example of test kit (one came with my water softener)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hardness-Testing-Tablets-Accurate-Softner/dp/B00UB1LF48/ref=sr_1_2?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1496139323&sr=1-2&keywords=Water+Hardness+Test+Kit

An example of TDS meter (the site I referred to above has articles if you search)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/iSpring-3-Button-Hardness-Temperature-Calibration/dp/B00IDBZ1A2/ref=sr_1_3?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1496139323&sr=1-3&keywords=Water+Hardness+Test+Kit


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## MWJB

Elcee said:


> How can one find out the quality of their tap water? I live in Edinburgh and people say its very soft here.


e-mail your local water authority


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## IggyK

MWJB said:


> Try more like 15-16g of coffee.
> 
> Brew times seem a little short can you grind finer?
> 
> Try blooming longer (90sec) then adding the remaining brew water quickly (10sec) in a spiral, won't be as consistent & controllable as a gooseneck kettle, but you probably don't want to be doing longer pours with a regular kettle.
> 
> No need to wait for the kettle to cool after boiling, bloom straight away the kettle clicks off.


This actual works thanks!. Just made an awesome cup of Pact coffee, before I was leaving the kettle to sit longer and ended up getting unpleasant bitterness. Tried your suggestion just with tap water and can taste the notes on the sheet of refined sugar and chocolate. Will try it with filtered water next.

So with a standard kettle its best to brew quick?


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## MWJB

IggyK said:


> This actual works thanks!. Just made an awesome cup of Pact coffee, before I was leaving the kettle to sit longer and ended up getting unpleasant bitterness. Tried your suggestion just with tap water and can taste the notes on the sheet of refined sugar and chocolate. Will try it with filtered water next.
> 
> So with a standard kettle its best to brew quick?


Cool. Overall brew time will be about the same as with a gooseneck kettle (with which I would grind coarser and add water in small, controlled pulses), but the long bloom & finer grind gives the grounds more opportunity to be water logged & sink to the base of the brewer,remaining relatively undisturbed as the water drains through. Less controlled, big dollops of water can churn up the bed too aggressively, your brew might then be less even & end up with more non dissolved particles getting through the paper, increasing bitterness.


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## Johnboy63

I would suggest using a Britta water filter on a regular basis to prevent build up of mineral deposits inside your coffee machine. Southern water is naturally softer than the North ( I live in a hard water area), but you should still be protecting your machine.

As water is passed through the coffee puck fairly quickly in espresso brewing the minerals in un filtered water doesn't make much difference to the taste.

However different brewing methods such as Mokka pots or Cafeteria will extract more minerals in the water as the coffee is in contact with the water longer. Hope this helps.


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## PaulL

Britta did not work for me as described in the article I wrote and linked to on the previous page, maybe they have changed.


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## MWJB

Johnboy63 said:


> I would suggest using a Britta water filter on a regular basis to prevent build up of mineral deposits inside your coffee machine. Southern water is naturally softer than the North ( I live in a hard water area), but you should still be protecting your machine.
> 
> As water is passed through the coffee puck fairly quickly in espresso brewing the minerals in un filtered water doesn't make much difference to the taste.
> 
> However different brewing methods such as Mokka pots or Cafeteria will extract more minerals in the water as the coffee is in contact with the water longer. Hope this helps.


The hardness of your water depends on the source & its geology, not simply your latitude. The mineral content of the water will affect the taste of the coffee by any brew method. Filtration may/may not have an impact depending on what exactly is filtered out.


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