# Acidity in coffee



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

http://colonnaandsmalls.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/why-speciality-coffee-isnt-overly-acidic/


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

What a long, thoughtful, carefully argued but ultimately turgid piece. He is trying so hard to appear reasonable I nodded off halfway down the 30th page.

Coffee drinking should be fun, and this guy takes it so so seriously I really never want to go into his coffee shop any more than I want to go to church.

And despite all the reverence for the bean and the rhetoric I think he is in denial - he still doesn't want to accept the basic fact that a lot of 'speciality' coffee is lighter and sharper than traditional approaches and a lot of people like it and a lot of people don't. And a lot of people want something in between.


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

Yeah, that guy sounds like a bit of a bore. I think he should have clarified "acidity" firstly though. I like to differentiate general coffee acidities (which can be good and provide flavour) from what I call "sour acidity". The sour acidity is just plain old sour taste; like vinegar. I guess it's one dominant acid type, but I'm not a chemistry expert.

The light/dark argument is fairly boring, but I think it's interesting to know why people prefer one over the other, and why some roasters prefer to sell one type over the other. The most interesting point I've seen made is regarding the rise of the flat white and latte, which opens up the window for more acidic espresso.

But, other than that, drink what you like. I like both. I currently have a Kenyan that's so light that I can taste a pea-like freshness, and on the other hand, some Italian espresso beans which are so dark roasted that you might have mistaken someone for stubbing a *** end out in your coffee.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

rodabod said:


> Yeah, that guy sounds like a bit of a bore..


Just happens to be last years UKBC winner and placed 6th in the WBC, i'd like to think he knows a thing or two on the subject ; )


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

This strikes me a quite a complex and multi-stranded issue, rather than primarily a "traditionalists think SO, high grown light roasted espressos are too acidic" argument...which at times, has something of a straw man argument feel to it.

One thing is for sure, if a customer buys a coffee and it is "overly" anything, to the point of being un-enjoyable, then that is a fail. Perhaps their expectations are unrealistic, in which case they can then be either further educated, given what they want (if you have it), or go somewhere else.

A couple of points spring to mind:

SO, high grown, quality coffees and non-3rd wave coffee don't strike me as mutually exclusive?

The coffee that wins UKBC & WBC competitions (if financially viable to serve in a cafe) undoubtedly is not overly acidic, but is this what is being served (16-18g dose into 60ml +/- 10ml) to the public? If what a UKBC/WBC judge is looking for is different to what a passer by just popping in for a coffee whilst shopping/sightseeing, is looking for - do you just wait for the judges to pop in & charge £megabucks a shot, stick to your guns take pride in what you do & sleep easy at night, or pander to the lowest common denominator? These are questions that anyone with any quality/bespoke business, or artistic endeavor has to wrestle with at some time.

The use of SO, higher grown, lighter roast coffees does somewhat seem to lend itself to pulling shorter, perhaps less extracted shots than let's say E. Illy's description of "espresso" (whether you adhere to it or not). With shorter shots, lighter roast, lower yield surely there is more likelyhood of acidity coming to the fore? How much is "too much" is in the palate of the beholder.

Personally, I love the diversity in coffee itself and the many styles & methods used to present it. I see "3rd wave" and "traditionalist" (though I don't personally care for either term) as different philosophies, but there is often some common ground, which guys beating the drum for one side or the other (I'm not citing Maxwell as one who is beating a drum, but his outlook could be percieved as such by those with an agenda), tend to conveniently overlook.

You can't please all the people all the time. I have heard people say coffee was nice, but not bitter enough, "Y'know I like a kick of bitterness, let's me know I've had something dunnit?", or "these places always make the coffee too cold". You can attempt to widen their perspective, serve them a lungo, point them to the microwave, point them to Costa. ;-)


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Just happens to be last years UKBC winner and placed 6th in the WBC, i'd like to think he knows a thing or two on the subject ; )


I didn't say he doesn't know a thing or two about coffee, just that I found it boring. I'm sure I could equally bore people about subjects which I specialise in! It wasn't meant to be taken personally.


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

RoloD said:


> Coffee drinking should be fun, and this guy takes it so so seriously I really never want to go into his coffee shop any more than I want to go to church.


People tend to take it too seriously around here to and I fell out with a few forum members before I realised this was no laughing mater for many around here. It's a great place for learning new stuff, but I don't think people hang around much beyond that for these reasons. I would not say any other forum is much different to be fair, there are some proper nut jobs on Coffee Geeks for example. I'm not sure why people take it so seriously tbh. Coffee enthusiasts and audiophiles share a lot in common.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

rodabod said:


> I didn't say he doesn't know a thing or two about coffee, just that I found it boring. I'm sure I could equally bore people about subjects which I specialise in! It wasn't meant to be taken personally.


Your comment came across as if you didnt know who he was


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

autopilot said:


> People tend to take it too seriously around here to and I fell out with a few forum members before I realised this was no laughing mater for many around here. It's a great place for learning new stuff, but I don't think people hang around much beyond that for these reasons. I would not say any other forum is much different to be fair, there are some proper nut jobs on Coffee Geeks for example. I'm not sure why people take it so seriously tbh. Coffee enthusiasts and audiophiles share a lot in common.


Id be very serious about it , if it were my living


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

I think this is generally a very reasonable site. It's easy to get carried away in debate but I think most of us here remain on the non-psycopathic side of obsession. That acidity piece was a little po-faced for my taste and, in the end, it wasn't actually saying very much. I'd much rather hear someone's rabid enthusiasm for a particular type of coffee (and to hell with those who don't like it) rather than all that balanced discussion of definitions and customers' preconceptions.

Not all of us are drawn to the realm of the WBC. Barista Championships, by their nature, have to take coffee making very seriously (and I'm not knocking them at all) and tend to encourage new approaches coffee making and new tastes - it wouldn't be much fun if it was full of people making traditional espresso with traditional beans and methods, and it's those 'difficult' beans that push the barista's skills.

All of that is fine. But sometimes I get the feeling that favouring a traditional approach to espresso is considered in some sectors unimaginative or ill-informed or simply boring. It isn't, just as there is nothing wrong in preferring, say, draught Guinesss to beers from small breweries or Bordeaux to New World wines.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I had a long and interesting conversation with him a year ago, and i didn't find him at all boring, quite the opposite, very engaging and not patronising. Didn't like the coffee he served, but thats OK.

Deep down, I still don't believe that people actually do like that stuff.









As for taking it too seriously, living or not, its ridiculous to get all poncey when it comes to a drink. Its not an intellectual subject. I guess people here are very interested in it, bordering on obsession, and I'd include myself in that. Got to keep your sense of humour though.


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Your comment came across as if you didnt know who he was


I had no idea who he was. But what I should maybe apologise for was not even reading the author's name. I thought it was just your average blogger.

I've never really read much about the WBC. I assumed it might be analogous to the DMC Championships for DJs. I think I prefer just listening to the music.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Expobarista said:


> I had a long and interesting conversation with him a year ago, and i didn't find him at all boring, quite the opposite, very engaging and not patronising. Didn't like the coffee he served, but thats OK.
> 
> Deep down, I still don't believe that people actually do like that stuff.
> 
> ...


Out of hibernation, result!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I think for specialty coffee to progress it needs to differentiate from where it is now (or where the public percieve it to be now).

Im not going to knock Maxwell for his passion/obsession/focus, its his business afterall , he is differentiating himself in a cluttered market AND doing very well for himself without deviating from his goal.

Id love to visit and try what he has to offer.


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