# Lelit Mara / Mignon Crono - grind almost at zero point but still getting 1:2 ratio at ~20 seconds...



## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

Not sure if this is something to do with the grinder, my tamping strength (which I'm led to believe isn't so important) or anything else about my routine, but this is my situation:



Grind at ~0.2 on the Mignon - zero point, where burrs chirp when spinning without beans, is roughly -0.5 (so 0.7 of a turn away)


Was using 18g in but upped this to 19g in to try and provide extra resistance to water, makes little to no material difference - I'm still getting 1:2 after circa 20 seconds


The initial drip after initiating extraction is within 3-4 seconds and I'm not sure this is right?


Beans are exactly a month since roasted now, brew temp on machine is stable and routine is fine otherwise


Using naked PF and double basket


I'm reluctant to grind any finer because I'm so close to the zero and manually the burrs are difficult to move at this point so fear I'm closer than I might think I am to zero anyway.

Is there anything I'm missing here that could help get 1:2? Could it be the beans as these are the first and only beans I've tried since swapping my setup from a Sage DTP and SGP?


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

I assume the brewing pressure is around 9 bars (not that this is of highest importance) and the beans are fresh.

Things point out to the grinder as the primary suspect. The burs might not be well aligned (this is why you hear the chirping noise too early whilst the gap is still big-ish) or it is just not up to the task. Lelit Mara is calling for a decent quality grinder.

Someone with this grinder would eventually chip in with better advice.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

You need to tamp to 10kg or more. When I started I strained a little as it helps keep it constant.

Beans can cause grinder setting problems. The usual one is not fresh or supermarket types which can be rather hit and miss on an espresso machine.

I've not used a Mignon but generally adjustments on most grinders to set a ratio need to be rather small. You may need to just adjust finer.

One of the reasons I rate the SGP is that it's so easy to set. The burrs move very tiny amounts at each step.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

The beans are from Extract, their Organic blend, and as I said they are exactly 1 month since roasted today so I consider them to be fine in terms of age and quality, it's just if there was anything else I'm missing there that could point to an issue.

The Mignon is brand new and from Coff-Hey, I'm sure if something was wrong they would swap it as I had exceptional customer service when I first bought it. Through all my research and questioning I'm led to believe that the Crono is the exact same as all of their other 50mm flat burr grinders, just with a timer grind function instead of timer+manual, manual only etc. So with regards to a better grinder, if the Crono is on par with the Silenzio in terms of raw grinding ability then I'm not sure this is the problem?

I could be wrong but I was assuming that if I grind any finer not only am I more at risk of touching the burrs but I'm almost at the point of grinding Turkish which surely should not be a requisite for espresso from these beans?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

imo - tamp wont make huge differece, i dont tamp..

the crono isnt an espresso grinder, so id lean as that being the problem


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

if you have a naked pf you could video it, as this will show channeling,

theres a possibility your too fine, then the puck fractures and all hell breaks loose.

from what i read the adjustment on the crono is less accurate than say the manule


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

There will be some differences on the Chrono otherwise it wouldn't be cheaper. What is hard to guess. Grind rates and motor power can be a clue if they are given.

I suspect you are now aware of the difficulties adjusting many grinders to set a ratio. It often takes very small adjustments. While I haven't used one I haven't seen comments that Mignons are any easier than others.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

Cuprajake said:


> imo - tamp wont make huge differece, i dont tamp..
> 
> the crono isnt an espresso grinder, so id lean as that being the problem


 So the fact it has the same innards as the Silenzio (bar 50W of power) and is listed as espresso-capable on Eureka's product page it's going to be wildly different from it? Genuinely interested to know how that's the case if so, not a loaded question.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

*Crono*

50mm burrs
Power: 260 Watt
Productivity (g/s)1,1 - 1,5 Espresso
1,5 - 2,1 Brew

*Silenzio*

50mm burrs
Power: 310 Watt
1,0 - 1,6 Espresso
1,7 - 2,3 Brew

Would it really be such a massive real world difference between these two machines? The question I'm more interested in overall is that the Crono is actually suitable for espresso which is what I bought it for and assumed it was through all my reading. I don't mind having to tweak more or less with it, I just need to know it's fundamentally fine to use.

With regards to tamp, I definitely tamp with enough pressure - I've had scales out to try and gauge my tamp and I know I'm in the right zone with weight.

Interesting that a finer grind can crack the puck - would that lead to a quicker start of the extraction? I've not noticed any visible cracking in the puck when I tap it out into the knock box.

The video here is when I managed to get it right with the shot but since then it's been very variable (possibly bean age?).

https://streamable.com/l613rn

This video was taken with the grind at ~0.4, I moved it down to ~0.2 because of the variability I was seeing.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

pandabear said:


> I could be wrong but I was assuming that if I grind any finer not only am I more at risk of touching the burrs but I'm almost at the point of grinding Turkish which surely should not be a requisite for espresso from these beans?


 If you think 1/4 turn isn't much open it out by that and run a shot.

You should purge the grinder after making an adjustment as well and ideally run the grinder when adjusting finer other than for very small amounts. They are not designed to crush the grinds that are left in the burrs each time they grind.


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## Mark70 (Jan 12, 2020)

Alex

You are too coarse. My grinder touched the burrs at -0.5. I have not problem/worry at grinding at 0 or even slightly finer

Give that a try a small amount on the wheel makes a big difference

Beans are getting old at a month so you will need to grind finer than a few weeks ago I split my beans and only week 2 weeks supply in tins otherwise they area bagged and frozen but that's a whole other topic

Also a drip after 3 seconds does not sound right. The pre infusion on the Mara is about 6 to 7 seconds so you should not really see a drip until the pump ramps up the pressure. If you are seeing drips during pre infusion something is wrong with your puck prep

Happy to do a FaceTime call to go through it


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## Mark70 (Jan 12, 2020)

Did not look much wrong with that video other than it ran a bit fast. Pre infusion was right at about 6 seconds and a fairly even flow through the basket

Grind finer


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The video of the pour looks reasonable. I'd wonder if the grinds were evenly distributed before the tamp. If lopsided the tamping pressure wont be even across the puck. Usually done by tapping the side of the portafilter or very gentle sculpting.

Can't say more really without seeing prep from when the stuff comes out of the grinder.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

Yeah that video was probably the best shot I've pulled and was from a few days ago so maybe the age of the beans is the problem here - possibly that plus perhaps these beans are just a bit exceptional in how fine they require to be ground before usable.

Keen to try another batch to test that logic...


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

ajohn said:


> The video of the pour looks reasonable. I'd wonder if the grinds were evenly distributed before the tamp. If lopsided the tamping pressure wont be even across the puck. Usually done by tapping the side of the portafilter or very gentle sculpting.
> 
> Can't say more really without seeing prep from when the stuff comes out of the grinder.


 To be honest that is another area where I can possibly improve, it might not be far off as I would like to think I'm doing alright but you can always get better. I've been hovering over a levelling tool on Amazon and might just buy it to give it a whirl: https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Coffee-Distributor-Leveler-tool-Distribution/dp/B077BZ4CV6/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=58mm+leveler&qid=1613993383&sr=8-5


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

grinder wise it think the difference lies in the adjustment knob,

the silenzo/manule youd have to back off 3 full turns from chirping burrs then dial in, i feel the crono has a bigger sweep, like one full rotation will take you from pour over to espresso.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I'd suggest a 2 slope type levelling tool rather than the 3 wing from using both but they don't really get round needing evenly distributed grinds before they are used. It's also important to leave some scope for the tamper - say a mm or so more compression after they are used.

I bought a 58,4mm one  waste of money. They still need offsetting to the side of the basket and run round like that - just less.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Looking at the specs of the grinder the chrono uses different burrs. I half expected that. Not sure I would take much notice of the video comments TBH. The burrs need to be run in before they can be tested like that.

Maybe they do make a different adjuster just for the cheaper grinders but I seriously doubt it.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

ajohn said:


> I'd suggest a 2 slope type levelling tool rather than the 3 wing from using both but they don't really get round needing evenly distributed grinds before they are used. It's also important to leave some scope for the tamper - say a mm or so more compression after they are used.
> 
> I bought a 58,4mm one  waste of money. They still need offsetting to the side of the basket and run round like that - just less.


 Will do a bit more research before committing!



ajohn said:


> Looking at the specs of the grinder the chrono uses different burrs. I half expected that. Not sure I would take much notice of the video comments TBH. The burrs need to be run in before they can be tested like that.
> 
> Maybe they do make a different adjuster just for the cheaper grinders but I seriously doubt it.


 The gentleman who owns Coff-Hey wrote a blog post on why it's cheap and compared it to the other Mignon grinders here: https://coff-hey.com/blogs/no-one-listens-to-sarah/get-to-know-the-crono

Seems to me that they've basically cut out fancy colours, taken away all features bar a timer knob, removed the included PF holder and made the MoQ massive for retailers so they can achieve big EoS in the supply chain and that's how/why it's cheaper but fundamentally the same as other 50mm burr grinders. As alluded to here/on other forums, the 50mm burrs being different for filter or espresso grinders seems to just be talk as in the blog post he states that Eureka have 2 standard burr types, either 50mm or 55mm.

As with the burrs and the grind adjuster, I can't imagine they make different parts solely for the purposes of making cheaper machines - working in supply chain myself I know how costly it can be to source/produce, test, validate and quality control new parts so would assume they don't undertake all that when they have perfectly good components ready to go (that they know work). And if they are different they sure as heck look the same as the burrs and grind adjusters on the other machines!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

They may use different burrs. It would need a very close study to see that. I went from an SGP to a Mazzer Mini Electronic. 64mm burrs as per the Super Jolly but different. Some fit the Jolly burrs to them. I didn't as they are aimed at different things.

Other than that I agree with your sentiments.  Pretty common approach to selling all sorts of things.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/index.php?app=core&module=system&controller=embed&url=https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/kq1igk/eureka_mignon_filtro_and_crono_users_a_request/

One of the posts at the bottom there says that after researching and comparing the burrs are identical to all in the Mignon range apart from Specialita and Brew Pro (which are the 55mm burrs) so I can only assume my above theory is correct 😅


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Another retailer has stated that there is only 1 eureka part number for 50mm burrs in the parts catalogue I have the older mk2 which apart from cosmetics appears to be identical to the chrono

empty grinder chamber chirp and espresso grind are close together and the numbers are meaningless

I have been contemplating fitting a dial gauge to the adjustment mechanism to give an element of repeatability but don't want to dismantle my used several times a day grinder to try


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

im straying from this a bit,

if it were the case then surely there would just be three types of mignon?

my thinking is while they may all have the same 'dial' the thread its attached to could be different, so in effect on turn on a crono may equate to 3 turns on a specilita.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

to add, only reason i say this is because the mignons ive had ( specilita and manuale) going 0.5 in either direction from a dial point has ment the difference from a gusher to clogging the machine.


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## QueenOfCaffine (Dec 29, 2020)

I have no issues with my Crono and getting a well timed espresso, 31 seconds.

I did fudge the grinder to start with as was predominantly using it for pour overs.

When I switched to espresso, I took the top off and manually adjusted the knob until the burrs physically touched, spinning the spindle with my fingers.

Once the burrs touched, I backed off two notches on the knob so say it was 1 on touching, I backed off to 3 and dialled in from there.

Lots of YouTube clips on how to do this.

Never have an issue with grind or with putting the shot through the Gaggia.

I tap the portafilter to level and remove air, distribute with my hand lightly,distribute with a tool and then tamp firmly using 10kg of pressure (tested with a scale). Sounds a lot but it's super quick and I get great shots.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

QueenOfCaffine said:


> I have no issues with my Crono and getting a well timed espresso, 31 seconds.
> 
> I did fudge the grinder to start with as was predominantly using it for pour overs.
> 
> ...


 @QueenOfCaffine on the videos, there is one on YouTube (below) from Bella Barista that suggests you should find the zero point and then he backs off roughly one turn before dialling back in from there, so that's what I initially followed. Out of interest what number are you at once fully dialled in?

And yes, you're routine is going to be my full routine once my tool arrives, otherwise it's the same now without that part of the sequence.

With regards to more results, I've tried all sorts this morning, gone to 0 (so within 0.5 turn of burrs touching) and back to 1 and then back to ~0.4 - all three shots had early extraction (within ~3 seconds) and were at 38g within 20 seconds or less. Very frustrating.

Having just spoken to Bella Barista after ordering something from them, they've suggested that I clean the grinder as a bean or particles could be stuck and impacting the ability to grind finer (apparently relatively common in new grinders with super sharp blades). Going to give that a go in hope that it's the problem!


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## QueenOfCaffine (Dec 29, 2020)

> 2 hours ago, pandabear said:
> 
> @QueenOfCaffine on the videos, there is one on YouTube (below) from Bella Barista that suggests you should find the zero point and then he backs off roughly one turn before dialling back in from there, so that's what I initially followed. Out of interest what number are you at once fully dialled in?
> 
> ...


 That's exactly what I did, dismantled, cleaned, manually adjusted. I'm pretty much on one, and have adjusted much finer than I though I would and it's happy. I have rotated at least 1-2 full turns since the manual adjustment, in small stages. Dialing in.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

QueenOfCaffine said:


> That's exactly what I did, dismantled, cleaned, manually adjusted. I'm pretty much on one, and have adjusted much finer than I though I would and it's happy. I have rotated at least 1-2 full turns since the manual adjustment, in small stages. Dialing in.


 So you're pretty much at the touching point when grinding for espresso?


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

Update:

Properly stuck for what to do now. Could the grinder be faulty? Surely I'm not too fine given that these results are consistent across an entire turn of the grinder dial?

Took the grinder burrs apart, fully cleaned everything, nothing obvious in there. Put back together meticulously. Zero point checked and still at -0.5 (marked red on the photo attached) and dialled back in by grinding finer from 1 down to 0.5.

Pulled a shot there, terrible again. Dialled into just before 0, pulled another shot and the same result. Went brave and dialled into where the photo below is at and even worse, see video:

https://streamable.com/4bigd7

The channelling is worse here than any other grind setting before, that's about the only thing that's different. Everything else is the same - early extraction, 20 seconds until weight achieved. Made sure my tamping was level and even every time.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@pandabear - How long did it take to grind those beans? It feels like it's too coarse. How old is the grinder? I know @HVL87 was having some bad luck with his grinders too.


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

I'm running a Specialita, so a little different but no dramatic changes, my zero point is exactly where yours is, but the only bean I've had to grind where your machine is set was Raves Monsoon Malabar - which as a bean seems to break several norms, mines currently set at approx 1.3, (Blackcat Twilight) and runs a 27s shot, don't if that helps or is completely irrelevant to your issue.

I noticed someone asked about the brew pressure earlier in the thread, is that definitely 9-10bar using a blind basket?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

pandabear said:


> So you're pretty much at the touching point when grinding for espresso?


 Yes. Maybe 1, or even 0.5 mark from your zero point, depending on beans. IMMV.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @pandabear - How long did it take to grind those beans? It feels like it's too coarse. How old is the grinder? I know @HVL87 was having some bad luck with his grinders too.


 Grinder is 1 month old. Without timing I would guess it takes about 10-12 seconds to grind 18.5g.



MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yes. Maybe 1, or even 0.5 mark from your zero point, depending on beans. IMMV.


 I was at 1 away when I was able to get some half decent shots a couple of weeks back, but since then it's unbelievably fast. Obviously the last shot I pulled above was approx 0.4 away from zero which is why I'm concerned.



Deegee said:


> I'm running a Specialita, so a little different but no dramatic changes, my zero point is exactly where yours is, but the only bean I've had to grind where your machine is set was Raves Monsoon Malabar - which as a bean seems to break several norms, mines currently set at approx 1.3, (Blackcat Twilight) and runs a 27s shot, don't if that helps or is completely irrelevant to your issue.
> 
> I noticed someone asked about the brew pressure earlier in the thread, is that definitely 9-10bar using a blind basket?


 That's really interesting because my first gut feeling was that it might just be the bean - it's the first time I've ever used this bean and I've never had this type of seemingly unresolvable problem before when my grinder was a SGP! And yes, pressure is always between 9 and 10, usually closer to 10 when brewing with the naked PF. Or when you say blind basket did you mean when backflushing?


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

@pandabear Yes I meant back flushing, just to check if the OPV etc hadn't jammed or something odd that could happen on a new machine.

If you think there's a possibility it's a weird bean, I'd go back back to a "control" bean, something that you know and have used frequently in the past, we've all got our favourites that we know fairly well, choose something like that and try again, my own experience with espresso success is you need to change variables into known factors and you're dealing with 3 variables, new machine, new grinder and new bean, I'd try and make at least one of those a known as a start point. HTH.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @pandabear - How long did it take to grind those beans? It feels like it's too coarse. How old is the grinder? I know @HVL87 was having some bad luck with his grinders too.


 I actually just timed a grind and it took 16.5 seconds to get 19g. And that was with the grind backed off 1 number from my zero point (ie. I'm grinding at 0.5). Having looked at the thread you mention, that seems longer than should be?



Deegee said:


> @pandabear Yes I meant back flushing, just to check if the OPV etc hadn't jammed or something odd that could happen on a new machine.
> 
> If you think there's a possibility it's a weird bean, I'd go back back to a "control" bean, something that you know and have used frequently in the past, we've all got our favourites that we know fairly well, choose something like that and try again, my own experience with espresso success is you need to change variables into known factors and you're dealing with 3 variables, new machine, new grinder and new bean, I'd try and make at least one of those a known as a start point. HTH.


 Yeah I agree with this sentiment to be honest, should have stuck with what I knew bean wise to begin with. However the grind time above does seem too slow?

The machine is not new, bought it from here and it's only a year old.

I highly doubt it's anything to do with the machine, but if the OPV was jammed out of curiosity would I get 9-10 bar of pressure when pulling a shot or not? Just trying to eliminate the variables.


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

If the OPV had jammed, the pressure would be all over the place depending on if it had jammed open/close/partially open, if you get a nice progressive pressure rise when you begin the shot it's probably fine.

When i said new, I meant new to you, as in unfamiliar, I didn't know how long you'd had any of the kit but the tone of the thread gave me the impression you'd recently upgraded your kit, my bad if not. 🤭


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

cant rule out the beans

why not order some from someone like rave or black cat for asap del.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

Deegee said:


> If the OPV had jammed, the pressure would be all over the place depending on if it had jammed open/close/partially open, if you get a nice progressive pressure rise when you begin the shot it's probably fine.
> 
> When i said new, I meant new to you, as in unfamiliar, I didn't know how long you'd had any of the kit but the tone of the thread gave me the impression you'd recently upgraded your kit, my bad if not. 🤭


 Yeah it's a nice rise and there isn't anything telling me it's the machine. I am new to it and the grinder though so no offense taken!



Cuprajake said:


> cant rule out the beans
> 
> why not order some from someone like rave or black cat for asap del.


 I used to almost exclusively run James Gourmet beans (mostly Formula 6) on my DTP before I got the Mara, I did occasionally use my local coffee shop's house blend from Hasbean when I ran out though so maybe I could pop along there today and grab some!

Does 16 seconds for 18-19g of grinds seem slow though? Or could this again be an awkward bean?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)




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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

Sounds like getting a bag from the local coffee shop is a winner, they should (hopefully) be de-gassed and ready to go!

When I had the MM a month back my Specialita was set @ 14.5 for a 19g dose, so not a long way from where you are adjustment-wise, but it was very fine, any coarser and it was a gusher, tbh I was concerned about puck fracture, but it worked out ok and was one of the best I've had in milk.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

Deegee said:


> Sounds like getting a bag from the local coffee shop is a winner, they should (hopefully) be de-gassed and ready to go!
> 
> When I had the MM a month back my Specialita was set @ 14.5 for a 19g dose, so not a long way from where you are adjustment-wise, but it was very fine, any coarser and it was a gusher, tbh I was concerned about puck fracture, but it worked out ok and was one of the best I've had in milk.


 My thoughts exactly with the degassing. I know the guys there well so they'd definitely help with a week old bag if possible.

Glad to hear you got good results that way! Puck fracture was another problem I thought I might make for myself but the consistency of the bad results makes me think not.

Your grind time seems the same as mine relatively if you factor in the extra 10% burr size on the Specialita and your time is roughly 10% less than mine. Either way will keep an eye on time when grinding the next beans as could be indicative of any issue to do with the grinder.

@Cuprajake I assume in that video that you're probably not grinding as fine as what me and @Deegee are and therefore getting 19g out in the shorter time?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

A lot of posts on here and dont always have the time to read em all, so ill generalise as to why and some solutions .

Coffee is stale and or dose is too small to great resistance , or its too light . Too light should be pretty easy to tell from outer colour . CHANGE TO A KNOWN COFFEE

Puck is channeling ( to find a grind, too little , too much head room, poor puck prep , ill fitting tamper or all the ) GET A NAKED PF

Grinder is askew , needs shimming , burrs knackered , not aligned, zero point is wrong . CLEAN AND PUT BACK TOGETHER , RE ZERO

Degassing can make shots pull inconsistently and taste bad but Ive yet to find one that means puck resistance is this poor .

9/10 its coffee related with some poor puck prep


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Adding to @Mrboots2u. The idea of zeroing the burrs is to detect the point where they are touching to avoid running there for any length of time. It says nothing about how close to that point the adjustment may need to be to set a ratio. Nothing at all.

I can understand why some one might have culture shock when switching from an SGP because they wont be aware of how little the burrs actually move when an adjustment is made. They too can be calibrated at the point where the burrs just touch at min setting and just one setting away from that and they run clear. It's not easy to set them like that. They are usually correctly calibrated anyway and variations in that just change the numbers not the grind. Flat is much easier. One of the odd things I found with the SGP is that I could tune any supermarket bean I tried and I do mean any. A number of them.  Main problem was the taste.

Seeing mention of Monsooned the dark roast does need an unusually fine grind. The only one I am aware of but there may be others. At a medium level it ideally needs grade one bean selected and rated by a coffee taster. Ones i have tried have been hit and miss. The state dark roast arrives in usually varies with the roaster as well. Also the basic bean taste.

Channelling is often down to prep. Grinds level all over the place before tamping can be one cause, same if a leveller is used. Their main gain is helping keep the main tamp level. Low fill height and fine grinding - the puck may break down. Usually pretty obvious as little comes out followed by more of a gush. This can relate to prep again as well. Same problem - unequal tamping pressure across the puck. Too high a weight of grinds - grinds can't expand maybe to the point where flow starts and then drops off. Coin test is the best option other than on Sage - check with the razor.  Doesn't work to well on their DB. With the coin test look for a very slight impression of it on the grinds.

On some machines these levels can be increased by say 1/2g a time until the puck sticks to the shower screen. Another 1/2g may stop that happening. This does little to the grinder setting. Too much will need a much larger change and a reduction in extraction - read as less taste. Main problem working this way is what happens if the dose changes - drop and the puck will stick. Increase - may be too much


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## QueenOfCaffine (Dec 29, 2020)

Some much better responses than I could provide here, I experimented with grind on the crono, levelling, weigh, basket and tampigni and I et a great shot... Have even managed to choke the Gaggia.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

Before I reply just a quick thanks to everyone who's replied so far and continues to reply, finding this very informative so thank you!

@ajohn, super useful post and some questions that come out of that. My routine at the moment is I grind into an old Co-op bicarb pot (waiting on a dosing cup and distributor tool at the moment) and then place my PF on top, tip it up and bang the PF down a couple of times on the tamping mat to get grinds out. Then level very lightly with my finger across, then tap down again and finally tamp. I don't seem to have had issue with this method before but any suggestions to improve with current tools are welcome.

I've had the puck stick to my DTP before so I'm aware of the pros and cons to increasing the dose but you've put it very well - it's all a balancing act.

Will have a look at the coin test!


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

Update:

Bought beans I am familiar with and getting ultimately the exact same issue. Tried three different grinds with the beans, 18g in and every time 1:2 at 20 seconds. Signs of channelling along with the early extraction. I noticed in the second shot there was some obvious channelling in the puck so started nutating the tamper but third shot showed no difference. Spurting coffee.

Did a final grind with 17g in and nutating, even worse - didn't reach 9 bar of pressure and coffee everywhere.

Perhaps this is all in my puck prep and I've subconsciously changed something? Not sure I even know anymore!

Losing the will to live 😅


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

First pic is my second 18g shot, pre-nutating. Second is my 17g shot puck.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Not sure what I am meant to tell from these photos ,

post extraction picks tells us little IMHO

channeling and early extraction could be too fine a grind , with puck fracturing , what a the coffee look like pre tamp

If you have having to nutate something is awry , this shouldn't be a solution for a functioning grinder and coffee , have you always has to nutate .

if u haven't my advice is to stop now and keep your tamp simple and flat . 
a shot of the coffee ground and a clip of the extraction would tell us more . 
You haven't changed to a triple or 20 g basket recently ?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I feel straight into the portafilter is the best way really. One thing I would say about using a grind cup is don't tap the grinds down in it. I did that for a while with Niche and it has some odd effects. Might be ok if grinds are stirred afterwards or when they are in the portafilter. In some ways a cup is an added complication.

People use all sorts to level the grinds. Thumb, finger, spatula etc. The main thing to remember is not to introduce much pressure difference across the puck. I've been working at adding a bit evenly across all of it at the moment for a change. The traditional way is straight out of the grinder and tap the sides of the portafilter to level / even them out if needed. The problem is easy to explain. Say one side is 1/2" higher when they are tamped. That section will be tamped harder. The same problem exists with levellers. I stopped using a 3 wing one as had far to many cases when a shot produced 3 streams that took time to merge. Ideally I want one and often get it but 2 close together that merge pretty quickly is ok as far as I can tell. I find the 2 slope leveller better providing they leave some compression for the tamper. I did tamp with one once. I had fitted a smaller basket and forgot so loaded it for the next size up. It must have tamped to incredible levels with little effort otherwise the portafilter wouldn't have gone on. Zero shot came out and the grind was correct.

Bottomless portafilter. @DavecUK posted a video of a shot called will it hold some time ago. I should have kept a link. Never know he might find it and post it again.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Bottomless portafilter. @DavecUK posted a video of a shot called will it hold some time ago. I should have kept a link. Never know he might find it and post it again.


 I post so many videos with fantastic looking bottomless portafilter shots....I doubt I would be able to find it.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> I post so many videos with fantastic looking bottomless portafilter shots....I doubt I would be able to find it.


 LOL This one was more like unbelievable.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

This is my grind straight from the dosing cup into the PF. The shot was ground at 0.5, so one whole number backed off my zero point.

Embarrassed to post it but the shot pulled the worst yet (every shot seems to be getting worse to be honest): https://streamable.com/fv125i

Shot starts extracting at 4 bar and doesn't get much over 6 bar.

I rung Coff-Hey where I got the grinder from and talked through my entire routine, emailed him pictures of my grind and although nothing wildly obvious he said it's very possible that the geometry of the burrs is slightly out and it might need replacing.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

pandabear said:


> Did a final grind with 17g in and nutating, even worse - didn't reach 9 bar of pressure and coffee everywhere.


 Don't bother nutating. The MaraX tamper is wide enough to cover it all. make sure that you WDT the grinds in the basket prior to tamping, level, and tamp.

get some beans from Rave, Coffee Compass etc so we can rule them out. Grind finer, even going very close to zero, and report back.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Don't bother nutating. The MaraX tamper is wide enough to cover it all. make sure that you WDT the grinds in the basket prior to tamping, level, and tamp.
> 
> get some beans from Rave, Coffee Compass etc so we can rule them out. Grind finer, even going very close to zero, and report back.


 Aware I'm probably being super nooby here but does the fact I've got consistently bad shots with grinds ranging from 1.5 down to 0.3 away from zero point not make this a moot task?

The more shots I pull with bad extractions the more frustrated I'm getting. Could a change/swap of grinder be somethign worth waiting for as offered by Coff-Hey?

I've only nutated two shots out of the umpteen I've pulled, it's not part of my routine otherwise - I was just trying something different to see if it made any change and it did not.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

personally, id upgrade from the crono to one of the other mignons either the specilita, or facile.

my opinion obs but i just dont get the crono im still on that the adjustments not small enough


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

or this

https://coff-hey.com/products/mignon-manuale-coffee-grinder-matt-black?_pos=36&_sid=e78298b1b&_ss=r

i know for a fact that grinder works for espresso as i have owned one


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

If you can't get above 6 bar the coffee is just not creating enough resistance. That is because the grinder is not going fine enough. I could get the stalest beans and not even tamp and probably still choke my machine with a fine enough grind.

Could be burr misalignment or just minute alignment precision if the grinder was not designed with fine espresso grinding as a top priority. I got the same with my sage grinder pro. Once side might touch but the other side could still be letting boulders through.


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## RossD (Feb 6, 2021)

@pandabear Any luck with the crono? I got mines around 10 days ago and has easily been able to grind fine enough for espresso.

I use a full 250g bag of beans in the hopper then dial down until I've got around the correct time and output.

Or a second approach would be put it on the lowest time setting and then keep dialing down and checking the grind size/quality in a line. I did this on a white sheet of paper to get an idea of grind size!


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

RossD said:


> @pandabear Any luck with the crono? I got mines around 10 days ago and has easily been able to grind fine enough for espresso.
> 
> I use a full 250g bag of beans in the hopper then dial down until I've got around the correct time and output.
> 
> Or a second approach would be put it on the lowest time setting and then keep dialing down and checking the grind size/quality in a line. I did this on a white sheet of paper to get an idea of grind size!


 I'm getting it replaced by the very good folk at Coff-Hey as I explained at length what the issue was, variables and test shots I'd done. They are sure it's the geometry of the blades being slightly off.

They too are absolutely sure that the Crono is for espresso as well as filter, as per their blog post I linked esrlier. Expecting the replacement grinder on Tuesday and then I'll use the above method as a way to break it in and check - thanks. Will report back!

Out of interest how many numbers are you backed off of your zero point to get good espresso? Are you using darker roasts or lighter/medium ones?


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## RossD (Feb 6, 2021)

@pandabear

That's great I'm sure the one on Tuesday will be good to go straight out the box! I think it's quite good to just get an idea of what the dial represents without going through a lot of beans 

From absolute zero where it won't turn at all its about 1.5 full turns to espresso range for me. I broke it in with some very old and very dark cheap beans and had to go super fine but the ginger handled it fine!

Below is medium roast straight from dosing cup to basket!


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

@RossD

Looks great! Full turns you mean an entire 360 rotation and not just a full number, right?

I picked up a kilo of Lidl beans today (they have an Italian week back on) and will be breaking the new grinder in with them.

Really glad you're getting good results with the Crono, I'm intrigued to try some more medium blends!


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## RossD (Feb 6, 2021)

@pandabear

Yup 360 degree rotation! Good luck with the new grinder - let us know how you get on.

I've been really enjoying the more medium fruity blends as appose to dark chocolate ones recently


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

Coff-Hey replaced the Crono and that seems to have fixed the issue, so was likely burrs out of alignment. I choked my Mara at 1 number back from zero point with the same beans that I was getting gushing with on the old Crono when right near the zero point.

2 numbers back from zero and I'm getting what seems to be a nice, consistent grind - 18g in and 38g out in 29 seconds!

I also bought and received a neat little dosing cup and distributor tool (the 58.5mm one) from AliExpress. The dosing cup makes a nice change from the old spice pot I had repurposed (less static for a start) and the distributor has made a big difference in the grinds around the side of the basket (I now get none where as I got quite a few when just using Lelit's 58.55mm tamper) and obviously gives me a perfectly flat surface.

The kit arrived within 10 days of ordering which seemed amazingly quick. Links here for anyone interested:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001103786900.html?spm=a2g0s.12269583.0.0.2ae61ae6KdZEXY

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001122655068.html?spm=a2g0s.12269583.0.0.15df78682SaULq


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