# New single dose flat burr grinder



## M_H_S

https://www.option-o.com/shop/lagom-p64

What do people make of the new single dose flat burr grinder from Option O formerly Helor I think. Its called the Lagom and has 64mm burrs. Standard or SSP red speed. I like it given I have been struggling to get the taste profile I want from the Niche.

When I saw 600 dollars I was quite pleased only to realise its the reservation fee towards around 1500 dollars. I think Aussie dollars. It may also have variable speed though can't tell.

The ssp redspeed burrs look interesting as they have the same burr geometry as ek43 burrs and are meant to give a unimodal grind.

They also say no rdt or wdt needed! Any buyers in here already?

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## ashcroc

M_H_S said:


> https://www.option-o.com/shop/lagom-p64
> 
> What do people make of the new single dose flat burr grinder from Option O formerly Helor I think. Its called the Lagom and has 64mm burrs. Standard or SSP red speed. I like it given I have been struggling to get the taste profile I want from the Niche.
> 
> When I saw 600 dollars I was quite pleased only to realise its the reservation fee towards around 1500 dollars. I think Aussie dollars. It may also have variable speed though can't tell.
> 
> The ssp redspeed burrs look interesting as they have the same burr geometry as ek43 burrs and are meant to give a unimodal grind.
> 
> They also say no rdt or wdt needed! Any buyers in here already?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


It's US dollars.


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## M_H_S

Great over a grand then! I propose we all buy super jollies. Extract motor and mount diagonally. Bobs almost your uncle... In theory at least!

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## Hasi

M_H_S said:


> Great over a grand then! I propose we all buy super jollies. Extract motor and mount diagonally. Bobs almost your uncle... In theory at least!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


As far as your theory goes, have you tried getting out an SJ motor assembly?



But rumour has it that I know some people that know some people that are having certain... ideas... around subject matter!


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## M_H_S

I have a motor already just being lazy at the moment but I am dreaming big.

I would love to start a technical discussion about how it's far more important to get uniform grind from single dosing in these new grinders rather than zero retention which I think is far easier.

For example, does tilting deal with this? Is it a slower speed? A narrower grind chamber? Etc?

I know for a fact that single dosing a k30 and ceado e37s produces grind far inferior to what they are normally capable of. But the e37sd looks identical!

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## Planter

I have seen some info on this. But lack of betas or feedback from testing seems very limited for some reason. Although helor do have a good background.

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## M_H_S

Just confirmed that it has variable speed 200 to 1200 rpm

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## M_H_S

So what are Forumites' views about particle size distribution? Does the tilt resolve this or is it the speed?

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## M_H_S

Pic









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## cold war kid

M_H_S said:


> Great over a grand then!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


 £1300 with the redspeed burrs, then if it's coming from the US there will be 20% V.A.T. plus handling fee, plus shipping, plus the banks exchange rate and possible charges. It should be yours for around £1600, but that's only if you move quickly and secure one before the discount ends.

That's a lot of money.


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## Hasi

Every time I get to see it I'm thinking of a microscope... which is interesting and disturbing at the same time


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## Nicknak

M_H_S said:


> So what are Forumites' views about particle size distribution? Does the tilt resolve this or is it the speed?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


 I am no expert , but from what I have read all the top single dosers are concentrating on alignment of the burrs in all planes . As single dosing affects the particle size distribution and generally you have to adjust the grinder finer having perfectly aligned burrs would allow finer grinds . Very fine tolerances on the shafts and bearings .. They also seem to be looking at burr geometry. Higher speeds could make any misalignment worse . Delivery of the beans to the burrs will effect popcorning . I believe the tilt assists with the retention . Other than that I haven't a clue ???


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## Hasi

Tilt is there to make grounds exit the chamber efficiently. Which relates to particle size: build-up around the burrs will trap following grounds in between - so they have to do extra laps.


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## Nicknak

Hasi said:


> Tilt is there to make grounds exit the chamber efficiently. Which relates to particle size: build-up around the burrs will trap following grounds in between - so they have to do extra laps.


 Yep , it will grind finer generally .. also having efficient wipers and a short exit path help ?


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## ajohn

How many Kg have you put through your Niche? Tried changes from your usual dose and ratio.

There is a video of the grinder shown in the photo - wonder if that is from a design package rather than a photo of an actual grinder






John

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## Achrys

Hasi said:


> Every time I get to see it I'm thinking of a microscope... which is interesting and disturbing at the same time


 Exactly - I just have to put my eye up against it. And whoever visits, will be doing the same.

'More coffee and eyelashes anyone...?'


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## M_H_S

cold war kid said:


> £1300 with the redspeed burrs, then if it's coming from the US there will be 20% V.A.T. plus handling fee, plus shipping, plus the banks exchange rate and possible charges. It should be yours for around £1600, but that's only if you move quickly and secure one before the discount ends.
> That's a lot of money.


Omg I thought it was an Australian company! What? that's a discounted price?!

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## M_H_S

Nicknak said:


> I am no expert , but from what I have read all the top single dosers are concentrating on alignment of the burrs in all planes . As single dosing affects the particle size distribution and generally you have to adjust the grinder finer having perfectly aligned burrs would allow finer grinds . Very fine tolerances on the shafts and bearings .. They also seem to be looking at burr geometry. Higher speeds could make any misalignment worse . Delivery of the beans to the burrs will effect popcorning . I believe the tilt assists with the retention . Other than that I haven't a clue


I'm not sure about not having a clue. Your constructive thoughts are the kind I was looking for as at the end of the day we are all lay enthusiasts making educated guesses.

Yes like I was thinking alignment is irrelevant to wider distribution while single dosing. But interesting that I didn't consider that the tilt allows for better exit and thus similar amount of beans being ground at any one time. Its also interesting that the tilt means that it is mostly the lower part of the burr chamber is where most grinding is taking place.

Has anyone read what the tilt should be in angles or it is not that relevant? Just from looking they all seem to be around 30 degrees or so.

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## M_H_S

Hasi said:


> Tilt is there to make grounds exit the chamber efficiently. Which relates to particle size: build-up around the burrs will trap following grounds in between - so they have to do extra laps.


Great point! Tilt is the way to go then. Any thoughts on speed and width pathway feeding grind chamber?

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## ajohn

The main purpose of tilt is to shorten the path out of the grind chamber to a point where it can go into a portafilter.

John

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## Planter

cold war kid said:


> £1300 with the redspeed burrs, then if it's coming from the US there will be 20% V.A.T. plus handling fee, plus shipping, plus the banks exchange rate and possible charges. It should be yours for around £1600, but that's only if you move quickly and secure one before the discount ends.
> 
> That's a lot of money.


 It does say the following on their site....

For EU customers: We are able to collect Euro and pre-pay import duty/tax, so you won't need to worry about getting any unexpected bill when it arrives in your country.

But there will more than likely be a VAT charge, depending on how they ship it.


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## Nicknak

M_H_S said:


> I'm not sure about not having a clue. Your constructive thoughts are the kind I was looking for as at the end of the day we are all lay enthusiasts making educated guesses.
> 
> Yes like I was thinking alignment is irrelevant to wider distribution while single dosing. But interesting that I didn't consider that the tilt allows for better exit and thus similar amount of beans being ground at any one time. Its also interesting that the tilt means that it is mostly the lower part of the burr chamber is where most grinding is taking place.
> 
> Has anyone read what the tilt should be in angles or it is not that relevant? Just from looking they all seem to be around 30 degrees or so.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


 I think professor ?@Hasi is right .. If you don't clean the grinder out often enough there is a definite effect on the grinds .. So any restriction would have the same effect .

Looking at the pictures as I haven't got one ie the Monolith and Eg-1 I'd guess the angle some where 30-45 degrees .

Im no scientist , but centrifuge force will throw the beans around the whole circumference of the burrs which would continue throughout the grind . There must be an optimum speed with the flat grinders to keep that happening before gravity plays a part .

Im interested in this as Firstly I was considering how to make one of Eureka 64mm flat a single doser ( after getting an hg-1) to get a constant weight until the beans get to the burrs It has a tall auger in the way . I am also looking seriously at an EG-1 ?


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## Hasi

Re where grinding happens: when there's an impulse (200+ RPM), G-force and inertia combined will always win over gravity.


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## Nicknak

Hasi said:


> Re where grinding happens: when there's an impulse (200+ RPM), G-force and inertia combined will always win over gravity.


 Thank prof ???


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## dsc

You need the tilt to use flat burrs at low speed, I've heard / read somewhere that the lowest you need for flats is around 500RPM.

T.


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## M_H_S

dsc said:


> You need the tilt to use flat burrs at low speed, I've heard / read somewhere that the lowest you need for flats is around 500RPM.
> 
> T.


And the benefit of low speed besides heat transfer? I.e. On particle size?

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## Hasi

M_H_S said:


> And the benefit of low speed besides heat transfer? I.e. On particle size?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


they become particles slower


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## M_H_S

Hasi said:


> they become particles slower


Profound!

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## ajohn

The problem with some aspects of tilt relate to what Hasi pointed out also that G force sends the beans into the burs and they come out all round them and are then swept out, lifted against gravity on one side and pushed with it on the other. No G force pushing the beans into the burs to break them up and they wont grind.

John

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## dsc

I used to think low speed was good, now I think that there's a minimum speed for every burrset and it's probably never below 500RPM. As for tilted flat burrs imho it produces a different profile when running slow as the burrs will mostly grind with the surfaces nearer the bottom of the tilt. At higher speeds it probably doesn't matter as centrifugal force takes over everything.

T.


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## ajohn

dsc said:


> I used to think low speed was good, now I think that there's a minimum speed for every burrset and it's probably never below 500RPM. As for tilted flat burrs imho it produces a different profile when running slow as the burrs will mostly grind with the surfaces nearer the bottom of the tilt. At higher speeds it probably doesn't matter as centrifugal force takes over everything.
> 
> T.


 You might find this calculator useful to put some numbers on that

http://www.endmemo.com/bio/grpm.php

John

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## dsc

It's not very helpful as I've got no idea at what level of g-force beans self feed. It also depends heavily on burr geometry, cutting surface angles etc.

T.


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## cold war kid

Planter said:


> It does say the following on their site....
> 
> For EU customers: We are able to collect Euro and pre-pay import duty/tax, so you won't need to worry about getting any unexpected bill when it arrives in your country.
> 
> But there will more than likely be a VAT charge, depending on how they ship it.


 That's not very clear either then.

Going off what you say, they may be delivering it to some sort of forwarding address in the EU. If they are, they will pay local taxes and then be able to send it on without V.A.T. being incurred ... at the minute, but these grinders are pre order for January and we're supposed to be leaving the EU on Halloween.

Or maybe they just pay customs charges before sending? I've never known this to happen, but I'd imagine it's possible. What British companies normally d when sending stuff the other waay is knock off the V.A.T. ( none is officially payable if leaving the country ) and leave it to the customer to sort locally with their customs.

It all depends whether we're in the EU or not, although it matters little to me, I couldn't afford it if I was willing to pay it.


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## Nicknak

dsc said:


> I used to think low speed was good, now I think that there's a minimum speed for every burrset and it's probably never below 500RPM. As for tilted flat burrs imho it produces a different profile when running slow as the burrs will mostly grind with the surfaces nearer the bottom of the tilt. At higher speeds it probably doesn't matter as centrifugal force takes over everything.
> 
> T.


 I read a snippet that you designed and built your grinder .. Did you go for a tilt ?


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## Planter

cold war kid said:


> That's not very clear either then.
> Going off what you say, they may be delivering it to some sort of forwarding address in the EU. If they are, they will pay local taxes and then be able to send it on without V.A.T. being incurred ... at the minute, but these grinders are pre order for January and we're supposed to be leaving the EU on Halloween.
> Or maybe they just pay customs charges before sending? I've never known this to happen, but I'd imagine it's possible. What British companies normally d when sending stuff the other waay is knock off the V.A.T. ( none is officially payable if leaving the country ) and leave it to the customer to sort locally with their customs.
> It all depends whether we're in the EU or not, although it matters little to me, I couldn't afford it if I was willing to pay it.


Yep totally agree. There are definitely some bits which you would ideally want clarifying if purchasing.

Makes a big difference whether it is or isn't included.

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## dsc

I didn't have to as back then I was using a conical burrset. Now I'm planning to switch to a flat burrset and I need to tilt to be able to grind at lower speeds (the machine can only do 200rpm tops). Kind of a ballache as it's not really designed with a tilt, so I'll either have to balance it somehow at 45deg, run it sitting on it's back, or rebuild it:/

T.


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## Nicknak

dsc said:


> I didn't have to as back then I was using a conical burrset. Now I'm planning to switch to a flat burrset and I need to tilt to be able to grind at lower speeds (the machine can only do 200rpm tops). Kind of a ballache as it's not really designed with a tilt, so I'll either have to balance it somehow at 45deg, run it sitting on it's back, or rebuild it:/
> 
> T.


 A rebuild would be interesting for some of us but a faff for you . Have to find the thread again and read more .


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## dsc

More of a cost + time issue, original built was way over 3k, so I'm not that crazy about throw more cash at it









T.


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## M_H_S

What do you guys make of the red speed ssp burrs. They have a consistent fan geometry like the ek43 or Guatemala. The company says this produces a unimodal grind and requires greater torque to work. If true we are looking at mini ek43 taste profile. I have heard ek43 owners remark that it is sweeter and clearer.

An interesting experiment I think is to fit 65mm Guatemala burrs to a k30 and give it a spin. Any takers?

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## Hasi

https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/mahlkonig-guatemala-lab-kenia-burrs-aka-ek10-burrs-in-k30-t50468.html

Apparently you can't just swap them around... but see post #5


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## M_H_S

Zwanger said:


> Guatemala K22 has 71mm burrs, Guatemala SB has 73mm burrs, and I believe Guatemala Lab has 64mm burrs.
> Kenya has 64mm burrs, Favorite 2at has 64mm burrs, ProM has 64mm burrs.
> A grinder with horizontal burrs will never have the same result as a grinder with augur and vertical burrs (you comparison Lagom versus ek43). They need totally different rpm, system for charging the beans, and so on.


Can you explain why the results are different and what are the ideal rpms?

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## M_H_S

Hasi said:


> https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/mahlkonig-guatemala-lab-kenia-burrs-aka-ek10-burrs-in-k30-t50468.html
> Apparently you can't just swap them around... but see post #5


According to the post by Titus Grinding it looks as though they are interchangeable.

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## M_H_S

I have a serious gripe of the single doser regarding the price with the exception of the Niche to some extent.

If we are talking about flat burr single dosers being standard grinders mounted at a tilt then it should be possible to have a Eureka Mignon single doser variant coming in at £350 or so. Am I being over simplistic and naive?

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## M_H_S

Instead we have the ek43, eg1, monolith and Option O to chose from!! All well over £1000!

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## Nicknak

M_H_S said:


> Instead we have the ek43, eg1, monolith and Option O to chose from!! All well over £1000!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


 Yes until the big boys in the grinder world realise there is a good market in the at home market . I suppose as well when we buy secondhand Mazzers etc we help them sell new ones to cafes etc . So I guess for now it is down to the small manufactures like Lynn Webber etc


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## dsc

M_H_S said:


> I have a serious gripe of the single doser regarding the price with the exception of the Niche to some extent.
> 
> If we are talking about flat burr single dosers being standard grinders mounted at a tilt then it should be possible to have a Eureka Mignon single doser variant coming in at £350 or so. Am I being over simplistic and naive?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Single dosing isn't that great, it produces a gradually coarsening grind and it's not how burrs are really designed to be used. It works, but imho it's worse than doser fed grinding.

T.


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## M_H_S

dsc said:


> Single dosing isn't that great, it produces a gradually coarsening grind and it's not how burrs are really designed to be used. It works, but imho it's worse than doser fed grinding.
> 
> T.


Yes agreed. Hence a single dosing grinder cannot claim to be competitive in grind quality unless it can find a way around this problem. My assumption has always been that monoliths, eg1 and others have over come this problem to justify their price points

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## dsc

Versalab is the only grinder which works around it by having a double burrset, one for prec-crushing which feeds the second, proper burrset. Everything else on the market suffers from the coarsening grind effect.

T.


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## dsc

I should've been clearer, my bad, by everything else I meant all the tilted gravity fed flat burr grinders. Versalab's concept is good imho, execution was shit, Frank's versions are what it should've been.

Non gravity fed / auger fed, vertical burr arrangements of course work well as the burr chamber never gets full.

As for burrsets, that's a different ball game altogether, fit a shit burr set in a good grinder and everything suffers (and vice versa).

Btw what is the video supposed to show?

T.


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## dsc

If it's an original Versalab of course it will, the motor on that often stalls even if you slowly pour in lighter roasts. The way to test for the effect I was talking about is different and you can only really do it on grinders which can run with a dose dumped in (so not on the Versalab).

T.


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## M_H_S

dsc said:


> Versalab is the only grinder which works around it by having a double burrset, one for prec-crushing which feeds the second, proper burrset. Everything else on the market suffers from the coarsening grind effect.
> 
> T.


Interesting! So you'd say none of the tilted flat burrs produce a grind as good as high quality hopper fed flat burr grinder... Let's say like Anfims, Mahlkonig or Compaks? So their selling point is just that they can be single dosed with zero retention not grind as well as hoppered commercial grinders?

I guess this would be easy to resolve if Monolith or eg1 owners/users could share the experience of comparative grind quality. @mildred @coffeechap?

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## M_H_S

Zwanger said:


> Please, don't make me laugh. Versalab has a pre-breaker conical burr, so they can use a lower Wattage motor- multiplied with belts= *cheaper*, in this world everything is related to costs, cheaper is better to any business. The grinds are a bit better from the pre-breaker, but they are using a traditional italian flat burr set, that does holy moly fines, in the style of Mazzer SJ, or Ceado, or Compak.
> 
> Ek43, Mazzer ZM, Mahlkonig Guatemala SB, Guatemala Lab, Guatemala k22, Mahlkonig Kenya, Favorite 2A/2AT, Zwanger grinder and many more don't suffer from the effect you are describing (because they have a bean feeder=augur-burr carrier- and because they have vertical burrs). The high speed evacuates the coffee fast so it doesn't change grind size towards the end.
> 
> As for your "beloved" Versalab, you can see this video that shows your theory is false:


So in your view flat burr single dosers should always be horizontally mounted? If so I wonder why the prominent ones have gone for tilted versions.

Also what about the Mythos? It's mounted at a tilt but is it augur fed? How does it perform when single dosed?

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## PPapa

Why is everyone obsessed about the physics and ignore the taste? I don't care if it's stones that are turning in some black box or if it's some super engineered unobtainium self sharpening razor sharp laser cutter, I just want a damn good tasting cup in the morning.

This is what happened with Niche, people got carried away with numbers and that's where we got to... let's not do that mistake again, shall we?


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## M_H_S

PPapa said:


> Why is everyone obsessed about the physics and ignore the taste? I don't care if it's stones that are turning in some black box or if it's some super engineered unobtainium self sharpening razor sharp laser cutter, I just want a damn good tasting cup in the morning.
> 
> This is what happened with Niche, people got carried away with numbers and that's where we got to... let's not do that mistake again, shall we?


I completely agree with you. In fact its what I think when I see a number of discussions taking place. I am asking these technical questions because i can't buy whatever I like and just try it. I will either have to save up for something I am sure of or rely on others' experiences.

I'd like the taste of a flat burr grinder bit from a single doser. I just can't afford the ones on the market. So am thinking of putting my own together lol. Sounds ambitious I guess. But not much to lose. I am talking a lot about grind particle size distribution or consistency because from experience I feel this is what has a huge affect on taste.

The ek43 is a unimodal grinder and people rave about the taste. From my limited tasting I have mostly preferred the taste of flats over conics (big caveat I have tried the giant conics yet).

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## the_partisan

I still don't understand what's meant by unimodal / bimodal? All grinders are unimodal, except in espresso range where there seems to be a secondary peak of fines?


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## ajohn

the_partisan said:


> I still don't understand what's meant by unimodal / bimodal? All grinders are unimodal, except in espresso range where there seems to be a secondary peak of fines?


 That's about it as far as I am aware but it seems to be confused at times by people that just use the words and don't appreciate what they mean. There is also some talk about grind shape comparing conic with flat. However a grinder manufacturer who posted macro photo's failed to show that clearly in my view.

I intend to make my own grinder as well. It would have been based on Robur burs but I decided to buy a Niche so it will be flat using bits from another grinder at least initially. First thing will be to add a funnel to it to see what mileage there is in big being better than smaller. I should have tried it with the doser on really to see if lack of clumps in that mode happens with the beans I use but I can't see why they should be any different to a funnel in respect to how the grinds come out of the grind chamber.

John

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## dsc

M_H_S said:


> Interesting! So you'd say none of the tilted flat burrs produce a grind as good as high quality hopper fed flat burr grinder... Let's say like Anfims, Mahlkonig or Compaks? So their selling point is just that they can be single dosed with zero retention not grind as well as hoppered commercial grinders?
> I guess this would be easy to resolve if Monolith or eg1 owners/users could share the experience of comparative grind quality. @mildred @coffeechap?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


No idea about taste, but they all suffer from the coarsening effect if single dosed. They are typically fitted with fancy modern burrs, so maybe they work better? Ideally you'd want to blind test them, but as they're rather expensive I doubt anyone has ever done that properly.

As for taste trumping technical data, just bear in mind that's subjective as well. I do agree however that what's in the cup should always be the deciding factor. On the other hand most taste reports you get from users are often comparing their fancy new grinder with an entry grinder they had before and often the results are skewed by the "newness" of the kit ie. how expensive it was and how it has to be better.

T.


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## ajohn

Zwanger said:


> Please, don't make me laugh. Versalab has a pre-breaker conical burr, so they can use a lower Wattage motor- multiplied with belts= *cheaper*, in this world everything is related to costs, cheaper is better to any business. The grinds are a bit better from the pre-breaker, but they are using a traditional italian flat burr set, that does holy moly fines, in the style of Mazzer SJ, or Ceado, or Compak.


 The smaller motor plus belt drive / gearbox results in a smaller grinder. The motors they use may cost a lot more than you think. Depends on ratings, lifetime and quality. The main thing that sets certain aspects of commercial grinders including their size is the motor. These makers can also get what they want - motors that are rated for the job. The grinders would be enormous if they were continuously rated. They then in some cases find they need to fit a cooling fan otherwise the grinder would need to be even bigger.

Using a conic over a flat is interesting because conics tend to generate their own grind feed that is less dependant one the weight of beans above them. This also tends to make them run clear when the beans have all been ground. Flats need centrifugal force. No available burs I am aware of have evolved to be used for weighing in. Pass on what impact that has.

John

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## jimbojohn55

*And on the eighth day God got up with a banging headache (as he had been on the piss) and decided to make a coffee but had no grinder, with a puff of smoke suddenly the Devil appeared and said " yo dude create a grinder with a small cheap Chinese motor with phosphor bronze bearing, plastic gearbox and belts, make it from cheap parts bro", God sighed and said "whatever" and did so, and then made a coffee of reasonable quality.*

*Gods partner (of indeterminate gender)*

*then wandered into the kitchen to see what all the smoke was about, and was happy with this new grinder as the colour matched the toaster and kettle and took little space upon the sacred worktop. For a while all was well with the world, but over time God noticed that his grinder became inconsistent and started to crap out, this displeased god greatly, a darkness descended across land and God thought to himself "what the f********* was I doing" He thought about the taste and flavour he may be missing, the disposable and environmental impact of consumer goods that had little or no parts back up or longevity upon his Earth.*

*God cast out the grinder to landfill (where small animals mistook it as a urinal) and God determined to create a quality grinder, with quality engineering and big flat burrs, and low he he called it "The Grinder King" and placed its mighty frame on his kitchen worktop. God made a coffee and it tasted soooo much better "soooorted" he said under his breath , he knew that this grinder would not crap out and would live long upon his earth.*

*Later that day Gods partner (still of indeterminate gender) rocked up with the M&S food shop and said "WTF is that giant B***h"! God shrugged and went to watch the footy mumbling something about cutting the hedge later, and all in the world was good again*


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## yoshi005

the_partisan said:


> I still don't understand what's meant by unimodal / bimodal? All grinders are unimodal, except in espresso range where there seems to be a secondary peak of fines?


 To me every grinder tasted equal before I had shots from a EK43. Those shots are different. Light roasted coffees taste sweeter and more intense. As an EK43 is not well suited to my kitchen I did some research and found that the Mahlkönig ProM has a burr set with a comprable profile (some call it unimodal). I am very happy with the taste of my coffee since.

Yet the ProM is not well suited for single dosing. This is why I preordered the Lagom P64, which has a burr set comparable to my ProM with better alignement and is optimised for single dosing. Of it delivers what they promise, I will be very happy.


----------



## M_H_S

yoshi005 said:


> Too me every grinder tasted equal before I had shots from a EK43. Those shots taste diefferent. Light roasted coffees taste sweeter and more intense. As an EK43 is not well suited to my kitchen I did some research and found that the Mahlkönig ProM has a burr set with a comprable profile (some call it unimodal). I am very happy with the taste of my coffee since.
> 
> Yet the ProM is not well suited for single dosing. This is why I preordered the Lagom P64, which has a burr set comparable to my ProM with better alignement and is optimised for single dosing. Of it delivers what they promise, I will be very happy.


Great you have already ordered it! Would love to hear your feedback. BTW are you in the UK? If so it would be good to know total price for UK buyers.

So what did you have before the ProM and how did it taste different?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## yoshi005

Before the ProM I had a Demoka M203 (49mm flat), a Quamar M80 (64mm flat), a Casadio Istantaneo (47mm conical) and a Mahlgut MG-1 (68mm conical). All were ok, but taste was not as intensive and dense and without any bitterness as I knew it from the best coffee shops I had visited. The ProM has its flaws but the taste is sweet, never bitter and and excellent - exactly as it should be in my opinion. This is true for light roasted coffees. I would not use the ProM for dark roasts as those espresso taste too strong and astringent in my opinion.

As I live in Germany I cannot tell you the cost for the Lagom in GBP. To Germany it will be 1595 EUR with SSP burrs including custom and taxes but not including shipping.


----------



## M_H_S

Wow. That's quite a grinder CV! Very interesting as I like my espresso to be thick and syrupy with longer extraction maybe let's say upto to 60secs. So ek43 style extraction is what I should be trying out.

Could you also answer another v important question. How did you compare the taste of your conical grinders to the flat ones?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## yoshi005

I like my shots on the syrupy and on the short side, too. I am not into long coffee shots. My usual recipe is 20g in, 38g out for a double shot.

I like African coffees, and with my conical grinders the fruity notes were emphasized but were lacking sweetness and often tasted bland and sometimes bitter. My ProM Espressi are sweeter, more balanced and never bitter but muting some fruity and acidic notes.

I hope this all makes sense as my English is not that good...


----------



## M_H_S

yoshi005 said:


> I like my shots on the syrupy and on the short side, too. I am not into long coffee shots. My usual recipe is 20g in, 38g out for a double shot.
> I like African coffees, and with my conical grinders the fruity notes were emphasized but were lacking sweetness and often tasted bland and sometimes bitter. My ProM Espressi are sweeter, more balanced and never bitter but muting some fruity and acidic notes.
> I hope this all makes sense as my English is not that good...


Yes it does. Thanks!

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## EricC

dsc said:


> If it's an original Versalab of course it will, the motor on that often stalls even if you slowly pour in lighter roasts. The way to test for the effect I was talking about is different and you can only really do it on grinders which can run with a dose dumped in (so not on the Versalab).
> 
> T.


 Hi Tom,

Of course you are correct with the original Versalab, one that has not been updated with the latest small pulley and double belt drive.

With these latest upgrades it is possible to "run with a dose dumped in" , in fact that is my everyday usage since upgrading.


----------



## M_H_S

EricC said:


> Hi Tom,
> Of course you are correct with the original Versalab, one that has not been updated with the latest small pulley and double belt drive.
> With these latest upgrades it is possible to "run with a dose dumped in" , in fact that is my everyday usage since upgrading.
> 
> <img alt="1802315504_Versalabc.thumb.jpg.2f3b86f82f379bec70ad53be7420421a.jpg" data-fileid="32237" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_09/1802315504_Versalabc.thumb.jpg.2f3b86f82f379bec70ad53be7420421a.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


So how would you compare the taste to other top conical and flat burr grinders?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## EricC

I would say that it is right up there with them.

I have owned several in the past, Mazzer Mini, SuperJolly, Major & Kony, Compak K10 PB, Elektra Nino and LynWeber EG-1, the majority at the same time as the Versalab.

I still have the Versalab.


----------



## M_H_S

EricC said:


> I would say that it is right up there with them.
> I have owned several in the past, Mazzer Mini, SuperJolly, Major & Kony, Compak K10 PB, Elektra Nino and LynWeber EG-1, the majority at the same time as the Versalab.
> I still have the Versalab.


Wow. Can you say why it remains your favourite? I'm particularly interested in the different types of taste they produce depending on whether they are conical or flat or hybrid.

The Compak is huge conic and the major and eg1 big flats. How did they compare in taste to each other and the taste of the Versalab is like one them or completely different?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## EricC

The Versalab is still here because of its ease of use, size and design, and of course my wife likes the look of the Versalab. ?

I am not the best person to ask regarding differentiating taste profiles, i only know what i prefer.

The differences between the three burr configurations i have personally used / owned have been discussed much more eloquently and in finer detail by others.

I can say that in my personal opinion the Versalab is closer to a large flat than a conical.


----------



## Nicknak

EricC said:


> I would say that it is right up there with them.
> 
> I have owned several in the past, Mazzer Mini, SuperJolly, Major & Kony, Compak K10 PB, Elektra Nino and LynWeber EG-1, the majority at the same time as the Versalab.
> 
> I still have the Versalab.


 Could you say how the EG-1 was like to live with please


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## EricC

The EG-1 was very easy to live with, similar to the Verslab.

Of course it is a larger grinder than the Versalab, and the grind adjustment is stepped as opposed to continuous.

In the end i decided to keep the Versalab because of its smaller footprint, grind quality, ease of use and quirky looks.


----------



## Planter

Nicknak said:


> Could you say how the EG-1 was like to live with please


You know you want to.......



Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Nicknak

Planter said:


> You know you want to.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


 I also have the relevant permissions ??.. However there are other options which I am thinking about . This thread has opened a whole can of worms in my mind ?. I also have had my Nouveau Simonelli 64mm apart looking at ways to improve its options as a single doser for decaf ? .


----------



## Planter

That's the trouble. Start looking too much and you'll never make a decision.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Fez

Nicknak said:


> I also have the relevant permissions ??.. However there are other options which I am thinking about . This thread has opened a whole can of worms in my mind ?. I also have had my Nouveau Simonelli 64mm apart looking at ways to improve its options as a single doser for decaf ? .


 ZM zm ZM


----------



## Nicknak

Fez said:


> ZM zm ZM


 ??.. ZM something that is in my head . Are you single dosing yours ? If so how does it do ?


----------



## M_H_S

Is there any data or reviews on how the best flat burr single dosers compare to the best hopper fed flat burr grinders?

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## M_H_S

Nicknak said:


> I also have the relevant permissions .. However there are other options which I am thinking about . This thread has opened a whole can of worms in my mind . I also have had my Nouveau Simonelli 64mm apart looking at ways to improve its options as a single doser for decaf  .


What's your shortlist? What do you have now?

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## Fez

Yup single dosing. Mine is older manual version so with no timer single dosing is the only option.

It's been pretty great! Retention is near enough negligible .3g is the most I've had. If not adjusting the grind then it's usually what goes in, comes out.

Would only recommend grinding into a metal cup as straight into the portafilter is a faff.

I can't speak for the standard burrs as I haven't tried them, but with the SSP burrs shots have been great!

Maybe @Hasi can chime in with his thoughts on the electronic version


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## Nicknak

M_H_S said:


> What's your shortlist? What do you have now?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


 Before the HG-1 came along I had Eureka Zenith 64mm and a Nouva Simonelli 64 basically the same grinders . Both have I believe the same auger arrangement as the Mythos . I have been playing around with the decaf one as a partial low dose and tamper . With no tamper weight to get a decent shot it take two hole numbers finer. The auger is quite tall so I have been pondering about machining up a funnel and a weight (whole in the middle) to go over the auger to get closer the burrs and try a true single dose .

Short list was EG-1 and monolith flat (Max But very difficult to get hold off) Ideally something manufactured as a single doser with tight tolerances .


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## Nicknak

I have been reading a little into all of this . Something that intrigues me is that the Mythos 75mm burrs have a 38mm centre , many 83mm burrs have a lot bigger centre hole in the burrs . So if bigger burrs are better owing to the route the beans go through is longer could the Mythos burrs be equivalent to say the Mazzer 83mm burrs . I have seen this being quoted .I guess bigger burrs started being used as they generate a faster grind .


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## ajohn

Nicknak said:


> I have been reading a little into all of this . Something that intrigues me is that the Mythos 75mm burrs have a 38mm centre , many 83mm burrs have a lot bigger centre hole in the burrs . So if bigger burrs are better owing to the route the beans go through is longer could the Mythos burrs be equivalent to say the Mazzer 83mm burrs . I have seen this being quoted .I guess bigger burrs started being used as they generate a faster grind .


 The bigger hole means more g forcing the beans into the burrs - assuming both run at the same speed and that aspect can vary on some grinders. There after comes the variations on the teeth of the burrs. The majority are very similar. Titanium is said to remove the need for running in. I can believe that as the coating process dulls edges a little. They are also said to last longer but for home use that is a mixed advantage. A flat burr grinder probably needs around 5kg or more running through it and going on my experiences ideally a goodly proportion of that needs to be at espresso levels. A kg with occasional visits to espresso levels may improve clumping. Same with 2 but for me daily use has finished them off and some beans will clump anyway when used hopper on. Take the static device out and weigh in and there may be no clumping at all.

When a grinder is used hopper on etc the entire grinds path is full of coffee that means more force is needed to fully drive the grinds out especially when there is an antistatic screen of some sort on the way out. As they go out more slowly this usually means that the grind has to be opened up compared with weighing in. When weighing in beans are bounced about and break up - this is said to interfere with particle distribution changes in what comes out. Personally I feel that why this happens could just be down to the differing grinder settings and in any case bean bounce can be dramatically reduced via adding a weight - much as people do who use tube hoppers.

I didn't think that either of the grinders you mention had augers. Where I have seen them in coffee grinders they are similar to the "screw" arrangement used in hand operated and other meat grinders.

John

-


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## Hasi

Fez said:


> Yup single dosing. Mine is older manual version so with no timer single dosing is the only option.
> It's been pretty great! Retention is near enough negligible .3g is the most I've had. If not adjusting the grind then it's usually what goes in, comes out.
> Would only recommend grinding into a metal cup as straight into the portafilter is a faff.
> I can't speak for the standard burrs as I haven't tried them, but with the SSP burrs shots have been great!
> 
> Maybe @Hasi can chime in with his thoughts on the electronic version


single dosing and bag grinding here. Haven't used timer function as I am yet to build a PF holder for it  as is, you can't grind directly at all - too much spray from plastic chute.
Love digital adjustment (0.001mm 'steps') and automatic homing (which comes up upon every tenth or so time you switch it on, or on demand through menu). Great, great stuff that!


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## Nicknak

Hasi said:


> single dosing and bag grinding here. Haven't used timer function as I am yet to build a PF holder for it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as is, you can't grind directly at all - too much spray from plastic chute.
> Love digital adjustment (0.001mm 'steps') and automatic homing (which comes up upon every tenth or so time you switch it on, or on demand through menu). Great, great stuff that!


 Do you use any weight on top ? Or pour the beans and go ?


----------



## dsc

Hasi said:


> single dosing and bag grinding here. Haven't used timer function as I am yet to build a PF holder for it  as is, you can't grind directly at all - too much spray from plastic chute.
> Love digital adjustment (0.001mm 'steps') and automatic homing (which comes up upon every tenth or so time you switch it on, or on demand through menu). Great, great stuff that!


Is it really 0.001mm or 0.01mm? Latter is doable, former is bs imho.

As for re-homing I've heard reports that it's an absolute bitch to work with as it interrupts grinding and is slow.

T.


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## M_H_S

Sorry but what is homing exactly?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## Nicknak

M_H_S said:


> Sorry but what is homing exactly?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


 I'm guessing but sets up the alignment of the burrs ?


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## dsc

It zeroes the burrs, so gets them to touch (or the probe touches a reference point), registers that as 0.00mm and goes back to the previous setting. No idea why they have to do this so often.

T.


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## M_H_S

Gimmick or beneficial?

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## ashcroc

M_H_S said:


> Gimmick or beneficial?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Possibly either but if anything, would be more beneficial in a commercial environment. Can't say I've ever noticed the grind setting slip on my mignon but I do adjust as the beans age to keep it dialed in so it's possible.


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## dsc

I've got this on my diy grinder, it makes sense when you fit new burrs or take things apart, but that rarely happens. In a commercial setting I can't see the point of doing it often as to do it you have to empty the burr chamber. The only reason you'd want to do it is if smth inside the burr chamber changes like burrs get replaced, but then going back to the exact gap setting is pointless anyway. I can imagine there's fluctuations from temperature differences but again, it's pointless to re-zero anything, as you'd adjust to taste anyway.

T.


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## lake_m

Great thread! Thanks. @M_H_S?

It's been interesting to hear what folk think about single dosers and the inherent issues / solutions.

Need more like this.


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## M_H_S

Thanks. I still have quite a few unanswered questions which I thought a number of the seasoned members would have answers for but I guess they are unsettled matters still. E.g.

1. Detailed differences in conical and flat burr grinders. Not just taste but being able to pull longer and slower shots for example.

2. Do flat burr single dosers match the quality of commercial hoppered flat burr grinders?

3. If horizontally mounted auger fed grinders are best for single dosing, then why go for the tilted concept? There should just a be loads of miniature Ek43s about!

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## M_H_S

Oh I completely forgot no one has yet mentioned the Ceado single dosers or Titus Grinding.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## Hasi

dsc said:


> It zeroes the burrs, so gets them to touch (or the probe touches a reference point), registers that as 0.00mm and goes back to the previous setting. No idea why they have to do this so often.
> 
> T.


your answer is here, right where you've called bs:


dsc said:


> Is it really 0.001mm or 0.01mm? Latter is doable, former is bs imho.
> 
> As for re-homing I've heard reports that it's an absolute bitch to work with as it interrupts grinding and is slow.
> 
> T.


yes it really is 0.001mm, so in order to stay that accurate recalibration is a necessity.
but, please elaborate your judgement of the accuracy being bs. I'd love to hear your thoughts because I've seen the Minima choke for good with an offset of 'way' less than 0.01mm (think it was 0.004 in the end)

Speaking from other actual experience, homing will never interrupt a grind job. As I said earlier it comes up every now and then upon powering up the machine. There's absolutely nothing bitchy about it 
Homing is slow, yes, but in a commercial setting (which definitely is the intended use case for this monster) it won't really matter. You start a workday well before using any machinery with prepping, planning, administering... 
In fact the ZM is an absolute pleasure to work with. Until you need to move it around that is 


Nicknak said:


> Do you use any weight on top ? Or pour the beans and go ?


it's got a pretty solid auger so feeds itself without weight  When single dosing, I pour from bean cellars into hopper and grind them straight through. Hopper has a microswitch safety mechanism. So, unless you cut perspex off you cannot grind without it attached.
Same goes for exit chute. This is the only thing they should improve in future as it tends to dislocate slightly when clapping bag clip against chute to shake out remaining grinds. You'd then get a message saying there's no bag holder in place. Grinding one bag after the other, rhis can be annoying tbh. Luckily doesn't happen that often


----------



## Nicknak

Hasi said:


> your answer is here, right where you've called bs:
> yes it really is 0.001mm, so in order to stay that accurate recalibration is a necessity.
> but, please elaborate your judgement of the accuracy being bs. I'd love to hear your thoughts because I've seen the Minima choke for good with an offset of 'way' less than 0.01mm (think it was 0.004 in the end)
> 
> Speaking from other actual experience, homing will never interrupt a grind job. As I said earlier it comes up every now and then upon powering up the machine. There's absolutely nothing bitchy about it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Homing is slow, yes, but in a commercial setting (which definitely is the intended use case for this monster) it won't really matter. You start a workday well before using any machinery with prepping, planning, administering...
> In fact the ZM is an absolute pleasure to work with. Until you need to move it around that is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it's got a pretty solid auger so feeds itself without weight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When single dosing, I pour from bean cellars into hopper and grind them straight through. Hopper has a microswitch safety mechanism. So, unless you cut perspex off you cannot grind without it attached.
> Same goes for exit chute. This is the only thing they should improve in future as it tends to dislocate slightly when clapping bag clip against chute to shake out remaining grinds. You'd then get a message saying there's no bag holder in place. Grinding one bag after the other, rhis can be annoying tbh. Luckily doesn't happen that often


 Thanks @hasi can you get an EG-1 and do your professor bit ???


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## Hasi

Nicknak said:


> Thanks@hasi can you get an EG-1 and do your professor bit


 anything else I should order along?


----------



## Nicknak

Hasi said:


> anything else I should order along?


 How about a monolith flat or Max ,I'll leave that up to you .. Don't hang about I need to make my mind up ???


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## dsc

Hasi said:


> it's got a pretty solid auger so feeds itself without weight  When single dosing, I pour from bean cellars into hopper and grind them straight through. Hopper has a microswitch safety mechanism. So, unless you cut perspex off you cannot grind without it attached.
> 
> Same goes for exit chute. This is the only thing they should improve in future as it tends to dislocate slightly when clapping bag clip against chute to shake out remaining grinds. You'd then get a message saying there's no bag holder in place. Grinding one bag after the other, rhis can be annoying tbh. Luckily doesn't happen that often


0.001mm is uber hard to measure let alone maintain on a machine like a grinder. You touch a metal piece for a short while and it will expand more due to thermal expansion, which is why I'm calling it bs.

The bitchy comment was from someone using it in a commercial setting and coming from a mate who's mates with that bloke, so definitely not first hand. No idea if it was a faulty grinder or if they were doing smth wrong, the emphasis was on the fact that it was doing the homing way to often.

When it does the homing does it not have to be empty? Any partially ground bits stuck between the burrs would cause it to measure incorrectly regardless where the probe is.

Edit: how was the burr gap measured on the Minima? What was the indicated delta used to do? Go from normal flow to choke?

T.


----------



## Hasi

dsc said:


> 0.001mm is uber hard to measure let alone maintain on a machine like a grinder. You touch a metal piece for a short while and it will expand more due to thermal expansion, which is why I'm calling it bs.
> 
> The bitchy comment was from someone using it in a commercial setting and coming from a mate who's mates with that bloke, so definitely not first hand. No idea if it was a faulty grinder or if they were doing smth wrong, the emphasis was on the fact that it was doing the homing way to often.
> 
> When it does the homing does it not have to be empty? Any partially ground bits stuck between the burrs would cause it to measure incorrectly regardless where the probe is.
> 
> Edit: how was the burr gap measured on the Minima? What was the indicated delta used to do? Go from normal flow to choke?
> 
> T.


 alright, get your points!
All I can add is that thermal stability is really really great in there - grind chamber is surrounded by a big chunk of metal and you have sensor controlled active air cooling. When chewing through a bag, I cannot recall a single time where I thought grinds would become warmer than bean input (I've seen this with other grinders, though). But if I think of it next time I'll take some IR measurements before/after ?

If you keep switching the whole machine on/off several times a day I can imagine you'd run into that homing problem. The way I understand the ZM it should be fired up before and shut down after business hours.

I don't know what exactly happens during homing as you can't look inside unfortunately. There are grinds coming out at one point so my guess is it spins in reverse at a very fine setting to get stuff out before hitting zero (while not drawing more beans in from a full hopper).

The Minima experiment used an IMS double basket (14-18g spec me thinks) on our otherwise standard machine, set to 6bar. I was trying to find the finest setting for a light roast and got down to .185 in .01 increments. It was extracting just ok (15g in for a 1:2 ratio in under 45sec), but at .175 it completely choked. Going back to .185 and extracting well again, tried .180 for no output. It started to push at least something through at around .181/.182. Going back again to .185 yielded repeatable nice shots.


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## dsc

I'll try and get more info on the homing issue.

I've got no idea how the burr setting is achieved, how and where the measurements are taken, if there's any backlash etc. so can't comment on the settings you've noted, imho it seems too low to have such an impact, but then again you were fairly close to choking so maybe with that particular burrset it makes sense. Would be fairly easy to do a raft of test, say pulling 5-10 shots on the same setting, timing them, then going 0.005mm coarser, repeat, go back, repeat etc.

T.


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## Hasi

dsc said:


> I'll try and get more info on the homing issue.
> 
> I've got no idea how the burr setting is achieved, how and where the measurements are taken, if there's any backlash etc. so can't comment on the settings you've noted, imho it seems too low to have such an impact, but then again you were fairly close to choking so maybe with that particular burrset it makes sense. Would be fairly easy to do a raft of test, say pulling 5-10 shots on the same setting, timing them, then going 0.005mm coarser, repeat, go back, repeat etc.
> 
> T.


 no clue either  it just does something, you can hear it 

re testing, that's roughly what I did actually ? remember repeating it on at least two following days. Then settled for .185 as the setting for this bean and never had an issue with repeatability.


----------



## M_H_S

@nicknak you wouldn't consider the Lagom 64 given they are available from January?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## Nicknak

M_H_S said:


> @nicknak you wouldn't consider the Lagom 64 given they are available from January?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


 Not currently , I have a yearning for bigger burrs ??‍♂. Also it hasn't been truly tried and tested .. But it could be a possible . I remember reading something from the Titus chap about the importance of aligned burrs above most other things ( which I sort of get) . So it could be a cracking grinder if well sorted . There is also the Honne grinder (a Romanian Versalab copy) not sure if that has been mentioned ..


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## Jony

Is 64 really big burrs.


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## Nicknak

Jony said:


> Is 64 really big burrs.


 Perhaps you should re read what I said ?


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## Jony

I just might do.


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## Nicknak

Jony said:


> I just might do.


 Nothing to contribute then ???


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## Jony

Have not Re read it yet, but I will and contribute, I was am in the same boat now want bigger burrs not really much around the Ek I missed the white one or the Ceado, if anything look at a Monolith flat.


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## Nicknak

Jony said:


> Have not Re read it yet, but I will and contribute, I was am in the same boat now want bigger burrs not really much around the Ek I missed the white one or the Ceado, if anything look at a Monolith flat.


 I have looked at the Monolith Flat , it's on my list a few posts back . Only considering purpose made ,well engineered single dosers at the moment ...


----------



## Jony

For the little time I had the conical it was ok, sometimes I wish I had bought the Flat version. But take note ordering will soon be open. Once he has decided which one he is going to produce.


----------



## Nicknak

Jony said:


> For the little time I had the conical it was ok, sometimes I wish I had bought the Flat version. But take note ordering will soon be open. Once he has decided which one he is going to produce.


 I will keep my eye out thanks . I have an HG-1 which is the main reason I have the urge for a flat single doser .. I will likely motorise that later . The Max looks a beast ...?


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## lake_m

Wonder if anyone is watching a certain flat on Ebay just now....


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## Jony

The Max is over 3k I think haha


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## Nicknak

lake_m said:


> Wonder if anyone is watching a certain flat on Ebay just now....


 It's not April 1st is it .. I lose track of these things .. ? A monolith ? Hasn't come up on my searches


----------



## lake_m

Nicknak said:


> It's not April 1st is it .. I lose track of these things .. ? A monolith ? Hasn't come up on my searches


 Try Kafatek


----------



## Jony

Kafatek you need to write and its a 2017


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## MildredM

So, £1650 plus £35 delivery in the end then.


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## lake_m

Hmm I was posing the hypothetical question on my max bid and came up with £1700. Anyone on here??


----------



## Nicknak

lake_m said:


> Hmm I was posing the hypothetical question on my max bid and came up with £1700. Anyone on here??


 Not me , if the seller was known as on here and in the uk , I would have gone more .. I went 1850 Euro


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## lake_m

Nicknak said:


> Not me , if the seller was known as on here and in the uk , I would have gone more .. I went 1850 Euro


 Not far off then. Unlucky.


----------



## Nicknak

lake_m said:


> Not far off then. Unlucky.


 I originally thought £1500 -1600 for reason above . But I always bid late so I don't change my mind . You never know his top bid . But hey ho might have to be the EG-1 ? damn .??


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