# Everyone's pressure profiling nowadays



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The rocket r8v multi boiler

Small boilers for each group

Additional pumps for each group for 5 stages of pressure profiling ?

All programmed via tablet

Wonder if this will make it onto the one groups at some point ?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Another pretty machine from rocket, i also wonder if they are going to do a single group ?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Looks cool, I always wondered the thought process behind docking a boat, now I feel complete.

Seriously though I'm really looking forward to playing with pressure profiling and seeing what is possible outside of the conventional espresso boundaries. We all know I'll end up with an L1 profile in the end









Interesting that they stuck with e61 as well...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Cheaper than developing a bespoke group perhaps?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Cheaper than developing a bespoke group perhaps?


Maybe, spares are easy to find, known entity etc...

I just find it hard to believe that the big boys aside that the group seems to have stayed constant. Its the cheap and easiest option but coffee has changed in the last 30 years and it just seems hard to believe that it's still the future. Obviously I have no facts to back this up


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Maybe, spares are easy to find, known entity etc...
> 
> I just find it hard to believe that the big boys aside that the group seems to have stayed constant. Its the cheap and easiest option but coffee has changed in the last 30 years and it just seems hard to believe that it's still the future. Obviously I have no facts to back this up


Well la marzocco are-were playing with a different lever group . Not sure it's " new " though

Rumour had it that Kees ( or his intern ) was modifying a group/ system to deliver true pressure profiling , don't know which one or where that ended up....

theres the mad Korean machine that has like 7 pids and 12 pumps and 97 Thermoblocks , where the pressure seems to be controlled by a hand held thing that looks like an early binatone alarm clock. Dunno what group that is either ....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

It will be standard issue pretty soon i recon


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Maybe someone is applying the philosophy if it ain't broke why fix it !


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Is it LM who were playing with saturated groups?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Is it LM who were playing with saturated groups?


Yep think so. Only going of a presentation I watched on YouTube...

Morning jeebsy BTW...


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Is it LM who were playing with saturated groups?


LM Machines have had saturated groups for years so I think they're way beyond simply playing with them.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Thecatlinux said:


> Maybe someone is applying the philosophy if it ain't broke why fix it !


Yup, although that kind of attitude wouldn't have got us where we are today


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Charliej said:


> LM Machines have had saturated groups for years so I think they're way beyond simply playing with them.


Yeah, and I've not had too many bad coffees from a LM machine.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The manual paddle LM is like driving a Lada with a turbo borrowed from 1960's Russian developed tank borrowed from the Czech army. It responds seconds after, if at all......nowt happens for several seconds then you blink........

The only true pressure profiling is with a lever and that is a by product of the system.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

cue dave c as the vesuvius does a pretty good job me thinks.....


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> The only true pressure profiling is with a lever and that is a by product of the system.


Sorry, that's just not true. A lever has a pressure profile just as a pump machine has a pressure profile. The term Pressure profiling (to me anyway) is the ability to affect and alter the pressure at any point during the extraction whether it be by pre-program or manual intervention.


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

Absolutely plus 1 on that.

A lever is not the same


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Totally agree spence the L1 has a set declining pressure profile, you can manually increase or decrease this but it takes skill and is difficult to repeat time after time. Pressure profiling is the ability to change profiles consistently which unfortunately the levers do not do, what they do do is pretty good though..


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

yeah yeah yeah, but, say what you want, at the end of the day the profile always tries to match the reducing pressure of a lever. The Vesuvius allows you to customise your own profile which is fantastic if you want to tie yourself to a lab, recording every shot pulled, fine tuning as you go.......me, I just wanna cuppa coffee!


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Totally agree spence the L1 has a set declining pressure profile, you can manually increase or decrease this but it takes skill and is difficult to repeat time after time. Pressure profiling is the ability to change profiles consistently which unfortunately the levers do not do, what they do do is pretty good though..


Completely agree mate, the lever profile certainly produces a great tasting espresso and I would never want to argue with that


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

I think you need some more hands on time on the Strada etc dfk41 in order to really see what is possible with paddle operated pressure profile machine.

They are much more responsive than you make them out to be and do not always rely on the ever decreasing pressure profile as per the lever.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> yeah yeah yeah, but, say what you want, at the end of the day the profile always tries to match the reducing pressure of a lever. The Vesuvius allows you to customise your own profile which is fantastic if you want to tie yourself to a lab, recording every shot pulled, fine tuning as you go.......me, I just wanna cuppa coffee!


And that's what you presumably get with your setup and you are happy with that?

I can totally understand why someone wouldn't want to mess about with all of this but the way you phase your objections seems very negative and done in way that is designed to provoke argument. Nobody minds hearing other view points but your posts just make you sound deeply unhappy.... so bloody well cheer up


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> The manual paddle LM is like driving a Lada with a turbo borrowed from 1960's Russian developed tank borrowed from the Czech army. It responds seconds after, if at all......nowt happens for several seconds then you blink........
> 
> The only true pressure profiling is with a lever and that is a by product of the system.


You've not used a Strada then?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am the happiest person I know! I dislike things that are put on plinths, mainly by people who will never have the ability to own one. For some, a GS3 is the bees knees, for others, a nightmare. Personally, I want to make a good cup of coffee each time I use my machine. I am not remotely interested in playing with profiles and experimenting with this that and the other.

Each to his own I guess. Yes, I often put forward points of view that others do not agree with, but thats life. All discussion is good, whether I am on thin ice with my point of view or not. If it causes you to reply or comment then that is good and I might even learn something as a result.

I have never played with a GS3, but I know a couple of non believers who have. Maybe they are biased.

So, if the GS3 tops your list, fantastic. I would rather have my Quickmill Silvano, if I had to have a pump machine thingy at all!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

i think the progression in the field of accurately controlling the pressure you put through the puck is a really good thing, the more manufacturers that get on board, the more likely it is that we will get better and beter machines available, this will lead to healthier competition and ultimately lower prices for what are currently very expensive machines. Then we are the winners, the end consumer.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I am the happiest person I know!


And I'm glad to hear it!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

no david i am the happiest person i know!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> no david i am the happiest person i know!


This sounds like a Spartacus moment.......last thought.......how many people could really justify and understand how to get the most out of these fancy machines? Of course, on a forum there will always be a few who can, but I suspect a lot more who cannot. if that is the case, then why develop the market for a few? How many sage and Onion owners (Gary and Charlie excepted) understand and get the machine to do what it can?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> Yup, although that kind of attitude wouldn't have got us where we are today


Or it has got us where we are today! Who knows


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> This sounds like a Spartacus moment.......last thought.......how many people could really justify and understand how to get the most out of these fancy machines? Of course, on a forum there will always be a few who can, but I suspect a lot more who cannot. if that is the case, then why develop the market for a few? How many sage and Onion owners (Gary and Charlie excepted) understand and get the machine to do what it can?


I do think you are right, currently there is not a massive amount of published info on pressure profiling. It does add a serious number of variables into the mix and at this stage it certainly wont be for everyone. The good thing is that you can, as you stated earlier, use it simply to emulate a lever profile or that of a standard 9bar extraction. You may then say ok well what happens when the pressure ramps up slower or ramps down faster, or each of the ramps takes place over a longer period. In the cup you may have a pretty great shot of a certain type of bean using your fav lever profile, on a traditional machine you may be able to change the dose, temperature or the pre-infusion time but with pressure profiling you open up a new set of variables. It could be just what the doctor ordered or it could be the cause of some kind of coffee related meltdown.

As more machines hit the streets, the more will be understood and the easier these things will be to share, just as we do today with brew recipes, optimal pressure profiles could also be shared with the beans.

Me personally, I'll probably never fully understand the variables but I'll give it a bloody good go


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Thecatlinux said:


> Or it has got us where we are today! Who knows


It's a complicated old world.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Even with the limited ways you can play around with pressure profiling on the Sage has had me doing some really serious thinking about what I could do with a machine that had far more control, whether via a programmed profile or a manual paddle, although having both options i.e the simple push of a button and a manual paddle a la Slayer and LM would be the best mix as think there are things it would be easier to do manually to record or fine tune a profile.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I had a couple of stinking coffees from a strada. The shop had been open a month but they told us when we went in they were having problems with the pressure profiling.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

I am thinking pressure profiling is a bit of a double edged sword, at the moment altering the characteristics and achieving a sweet spot for an extraction of different roast profiles is done with the manipulation of grind,weight,temp and time. the possibility of pre infusion and by using a fixed pressure profile of your chosen machine of choice, these all put together make for quite an interesting variable but with practise and experience good tasting extractions should be achievable.

Put pressure profiling into the mix and the variable will then become infinite , I am betting once set most peoples profiles will remain the same to make that variable a little less infinite , and i wonder how many will have a profile of a sprung lever??


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Just for clarity, in case I did not make myself clear, I was not referring to a Strada.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> I had a couple of stinking coffees from a strada. The shop had been open a month but they told us when we went in they were having problems with the pressure profiling.


Is this what they run in Bulldog Edition? I had 2 bad EK shots here


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Thecatlinux said:


> I am thinking pressure profiling is a bit of a double edged sword, at the moment altering the characteristics and achieving a sweet spot for an extraction of different roast profiles is done with the manipulation of grind,weight,temp and time. the possibility of pre infusion and by using a fixed pressure profile of your chosen machine of choice, these all put together make for quite an interesting variable but with practise and experience good tasting extractions should be achievable.
> 
> Put pressure profiling into the mix and the variable will then become infinite , I am betting once set most peoples profiles will remain the same to make that variable a little less infinite , and i wonder how many will have a profile of a sprung lever??


The variables will be numerous for sure but I'm hoping that the benefits outweigh the negatives. I like the idea of taking a coffee and saying how would this taste at straight 9bar, on a lever, on a LM Linea, Long Pre-infusion (Slayer type). All these pressure profiles are documented possible to replicate so they will give a great base to start from. You also have the ability to go wild and create profiles that are not possible on a standard machine.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Is this what they run in Bulldog Edition? I had 2 bad EK shots here


Not sure - it was a place in Glasgow I got the bad shots. The kocherre coffee shot in bulldog was amazing, the other one I had not so much.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Dont C&S run a strada with no ill effects


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Dont C&S run a strada with no ill effects


Yup, they're pressure profiling. I think theor EK shots are 5bar :S


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

For those that don't know, there are 2 variants of the Strada - MP and EP

MP = Manual Profiling

EP = Electronic Profiling - which removes the variables and allows you to program the profile (be it a bell curve, pressure reducing or any combination)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

So, how does the Vesuvius compare to the Strada then. Ignore the MP, let's go straight for the big boy!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Different pump for one. Works on different mech . Dave I'm sure can explain


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Dont C&S run a strada with no ill effects


I reckon if you know what you're doing they're great, if not it's just another variable to go wrong


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jeebsy said:


> I reckon if you know what you're doing they're great, if not it's just another variable to go wrong


If you've bothered to invest in one I would hope you invest the time to learn how to use it properly.


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

You would surely do that with whatever machine you buy be it a Gaggia Classic or a KVDW Speedster.

Otherwise one would stay with a B2C.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Ive seen soooo many example of 'all the gear no idea' in shops, its shocking


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Ive seen soooo many example of 'all the gear no idea' in shops, its shocking


Mostly around my house


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Only a matter of time before some electronics boffin creates a profiling box much like he PIDs we all know and love which can hook up to the pump and change the motor speeds and can be hooked up to prosumer home machines like Expo, Rocket etc. Hmm that would be awesome!!


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