# Rocket Appartamento - temperature



## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

Hello everyone,

I have a Rocket Appartamento that turned 1 year old yesterday.
I make about 2 espressos a day.
Approximately 15kg/30lbs of coffee were ground the past year.
I weigh in 20g and yield between 30 and 40 grams of espresso.
Mostly yield 35 grams.
This usually takes 26 to 32 seconds -including 7 to 9 seconds from the time I lift the lever to the first droplet.
Mostly it takes 28 seconds.

I flush on a daily basis and clean the shower foil and shower screw and portafilter on a monthly basis.

A few weeks ago I noticed that not a lot of water was coming out when I raised the lever. It took about 35 seconds to fill a cup with 60ml of water.

I cleaned the jet/gicleur and that remedied it immediately.

It fills 60ml in about 20 seconds now.

I decided to check water temperature and noticed that its coming out at approximately 78 celcius.

This is after having the machine on for 2 or 3 hours.

Shouldn't it be 98 celcius then drop to 94 celcius after the flush?

Thanks.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Quick question. 
whats your water like and how often do you descale?


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

Temperature aside 60ml in 20 seconds does not sound correct. Remove the gicleur and repeat the test to see if the issue is up or downstream of the restrictor.

I'd expect more like 200ml in 20 seconds.

Forget the temperature 'issue' for now as measuring it is a whole other discussion. It does appear you have a flow issue however.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

And just to be clear, if the issue is the jet/gicleur water will come out at whatever flow the pump and output as there I'll be no real restriction in the internal plumbing.

Having seen your thread from the other day it looks like you may have a scale issue causing this restricted flow.


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> Quick question.
> whats your water like and how often do you descale?


 Thanks for helping Tom.

I used mineral water (composition below) for about a year & never descaled.

Currently and for the past month:

1.4g/10.1g of baking soda/epsom salt into 1 liter water. Then 50ml of baking soda and 17ml of epsom salt into 938ml of distilled water.

<img alt="N25261833A_3.jpg" data-ratio="136.61" width="549" data-fileid="38358" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2020_04/N25261833A_3.thumb.jpg.1171e27089f87881f90bed99a075e657.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">

The top chamber mesh and interior looked like this yesterday:

View attachment 38349




















HowardSmith said:


> Temperature aside 60ml in 20 seconds does not sound correct. Remove the gicleur and repeat the test to see if the issue is up or downstream of the restrictor.
> 
> I'd expect more like 200ml in 20 seconds.
> 
> ...


 Wow, really?

I'll go test 20 seconds of water one more time to confirm.

I got 140ml in 20 seconds.

Heres a video:


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

Without more info like warm up time and recovery period it is hard to really fathom much from that video as water will never be at brew temp once it exits the portafilter and drops into a cup.

Assuming your machine is at a standard pstat setting of between 1-1.2 bar allow the machine to warm up for 60 mins with a portafilter locked in. Remove the PF and record a video showing the water stream exiting the shower screen. Include a visual of the shower screen and try to do your best job to make the audio clear.

Post this video here. I'd expect to see some flash boiling. However 140ml still seems low but maybe I am wrong, I will check mine tonight for you.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

HowardSmith said:


> Without more info like warm up time and recovery period it is hard to really fathom much from that video as water will never be at brew temp once it exits the portafilter and drops into a cup.
> 
> Assuming your machine is at a standard pstat setting of between 1-1.2 bar allow the machine to warm up for 60 mins with a portafilter locked in. Remove the PF and record a video showing the water stream exiting the shower screen. Include a visual of the shower screen and try to do your best job to make the audio clear.
> 
> ...


 I thought the idea of flushing before making an espresso was to reduce the water temperature down to approximately 94 celcius.

Otherwise the water making contact with the beans will be hotter. So to test it, I let it sit for a few hours then measured water temperature as in the video.

I expected it to be at least 94 celcius, if not hotter at first pour.

Thanks, I'll try what you suggested.

At this point, you would help immensely if you measured how much water you got out in 20 seconds.

That'll help me determine if I have a flow issue. Either pump is weak or clogging/scaling issues.


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

hedonist222 said:


> I thought the idea of flushing before making an espresso was to reduce the water temperature down to approximately 94 celcius.
> Otherwise the water making contact with the beans will be hotter. So to test it, I let it sit for a few hours then measured water temperature as in the video.
> I expected it to be at least 94 celcius, if not hotter at first pour.
> Thanks, I'll try what you suggested.
> ...


The problem is that the testing you are performing is not an accurate way to really determine brew water temperature. It may be a relative measurement that could give you some idea but I personally don't have any guidance for you here. I do believe whole latte love did a video on this on YouTube that you may be able to find.

I am in work but will confirm the water output on my appartamento tonight if no1 else can b4 then.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

You're right, Howard.

I have 2 issues to look at.

Temperature and flow.

They are sort of related though.

A lot of scaling will restrict flow and inhibit the heating element from heating the water.

But if my flow is fine, then I need to confirm what temperature the water should be.

How old is your machine?

Do you or anyone here have a relatively accurate/calibrated thermometer


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

hedonist222 said:


> You're right, Howard.
> I have 2 issues to look at.
> 
> Temperature and flow.
> ...


My machine is a few years old.

As far as a thermometer I have a group head thermometer which I would highly advise for you anyway and also a diy scace device that I have built.

If you cannot hear flash boiling after an hour of warm up your machine is for sure running cool.

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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

HowardSmith said:


> My machine is a few years old.
> 
> As far as a thermometer I have a group head thermometer which I would highly advise for you anyway and also a diy scace device that I have built.
> 
> ...


 I didnt descale because Rocket advises against doing it at home.

I figured I would do it in 9 month or a year - as I don't make more than 2 espressos a day usually and I used mineral water with relatively low TDS/hardness.

A year later we're occupied with this corona nonsense. But I will get it in descaled professionally very soon.

Have you descaled your machine?

How do I hear the flash boiling?

Machine is loud and therefore I can rely on the water dance...


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

hedonist222 said:


> I didnt descale because Rocket advises against doing it at home.
> I figured I would do it in 9 month or a year - as I don't make more than 2 espressos a day usually and I used mineral water with relatively low TDS/hardness.
> A year later we're occupied with this corona nonsense. But I will get it in descaled professionally very soon.
> Have you descaled your machine?
> ...


I have not de scaled my machine.

If you rely on the 'water dance' when flushing then that is the flash boiling...

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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

hedonist222 said:


> I didnt descale because Rocket advises against doing it at home.
> 
> I figured I would do it in 9 month or a year - as I don't make more than 2 espressos a day usually and I used mineral water with relatively low TDS/hardness.
> 
> ...


 In my opinion (maybe @MWJB will disagree, hopefully not!) that water is hard enough to cause scale.

If you consider it has almost double the amount of calcium and magnesium that Ashbeck (a forum favourite on the low scaling water) has. 
I'd say you need to descale!

The reason companies often say not to descale at home is because if you haven't descaled for a while and then do it you could break off bits and cause blockages and more damage.

So in my opinion unless you are using RO water everyone needs to descale regularly. Maybe every 6 months if using softish water, maybe monthly in hard water (if you choose to use this on a machine)

I guess the only issue is do the acids damage seals etc. I don't know this, but reckon using a low dose of something like citric acid or lactic acid that is in the machine for less than 20 mins and then flushed through is unlikely to damage any parts. 
Save for some boilers being made of metals that could be damaged I guess.

Most manufacturers recommend a certain product so use that or find what's in it.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

The alkalinity is too low for it to scale at boiler temperatures.

Well that's assuming there's nothing else in the water contributing to alkalinity.


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> In my opinion (maybe @MWJB will disagree, hopefully not!) that water is hard enough to cause scale.
> 
> If you consider it has almost double the amount of calcium and magnesium that Ashbeck (a forum favourite on the low scaling water) has.
> I'd say you need to descale!
> ...


 Yeah after I get it scaled professionally, should I use Urnex dezcal to descale it myself at home monthly?

I suppose that way, no large particles can dislodge and clog the "arteries".

But Rocket does not recommend descaling because, apparently, some aftermarket descaling products are too aggressive?


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> The alkalinity is too low for it to scale at boiler temperatures.


 Sorry Rob, which alkalinity?

The water composition photo of the water I used for 1 year that I posted above?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Yes the alkalinity of the water posted above is about 15.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Hardness looks OK, but bicarb is a bit low.

You could add 60mg/L of sodium bicarbonate.


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Hardness looks OK, but bicarb is a bit low.
> 
> You could add 60mg/L of sodium bicarbonate.


 Hi Mark

Thanks for helping.

Hardness and bicarb of which?

Add 60 mg/L to which recipe?

I'm probably going to go with Rob's recipe he passed on to me in another thread (Thanks Rob!):

14 g of baking soda to 1 liter water & 12g of epsom salts to 1 liter of water.

Then take 5ml of each and add it to 990ml of water


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

hedonist222 said:


> Hi Mark
> 
> Thanks for helping.
> 
> ...


 Mai Dubai


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

I spoke with the service guy who services Rocket espresso machines. He said 250g to 300g of water should come out in 30 seconds.


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

You guys are so helpful.

I am grateful and will reciprocate as I do in other venues where I know a little more.


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

hedonist222 said:


> I spoke with the service guy who services Rocket espresso machines. He said 250g to 300g of water should come out in 30 seconds.


210g in 30s out of mine.

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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

I got 200g in from 30 seconds

Looks like both of us are 30% below what the tech says

Not alarming today but something to think about soon?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It's possible the service guy is wrong.....200g to 210g would be more in the ballpark to me.


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

He could very well be wrong.

Wish the manual would specify these things for reference...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rockets vibe pump won't be special, their gicleur will be a standard size, anything from 0.6 to 0.8mm so the amount of water is quite likely to be similar to all those machines I've tested over the years. I wish simply lifting the brew lever of a machine was a good overall maintenance indicator, sadly it's not. No real substitute for a good check over at least once per year. The amount of water coming out is one of many little clues to a machines performance.

One day when I get round to it I might do a quick maintenance check video of what's involved and many of the oh so simple checks people can do to identify problems you didn't even know you had. Techs who work on prosumer machines tend to only see the machines where a customer who doesn't know enough to fix their own machine has finally realised something is badly wrong. The subtle diagnostics of something going wrong is not something they often are asked to do. Its why people can get a machine back from repair, only to have something else go wrong a few months later.

Testing and reviewing/redesigning machines means when I use a machine I am always on alert for the slightest thing that's "not quite right". In the end it becomes second nature. Part of the reason I rarely get a serious problem is because I deal with many things in passing before they really became a noticeable problem. I also use good water, very important.


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

hedonist222 said:


> I got 200g in from 30 seconds
> 
> Looks like both of us are 30% below what the tech says
> 
> ...


 I currently have 2 threads running on my machine and experience. A little bit fragmented.

In order to contribute to this forum, I've decided to start a thread about my appartamento and mushroom experience.

But for sake of closure, today I removed my mushroom, descaled it and tested water flow.

2 of the 4 holes on the mushroom (upstream) were partially clogged.

I got 270 gram in 30 seconds.

If interested, click on my username to find my third thread titled : Rocket Appartamento : "Mushroom & flow" post 1 year


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