# Any unwanted 'perfect crema devices' going spare?



## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Longshot maybe, but does anyone have a gaggia classic pressurised basket and plastic widget thing they don't need? Let me know how much you want for them - thanks!


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

I have a pressurised basket and possibly a plastic widget too - I'll take a look and let you know.


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Thanks! Think most of them have been thrown away!


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## huw (Sep 13, 2012)

I'm curious as to why someone would want one of these? They might make espresso that looks ok (i.e has foam that looks a bit like crema on top) but it won't taste anything like what a Gaggia can make with a normal basket and a decent grinder...


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

It has to be better than the espresso I'm making at the moment! I'm struggling due to a cheap grinder, small plastic tamper and very little experience! I'll be getting a better grinder in the not too distant future hopefully, but I thought this might help to get me started. I had a dualit machine (with pressurised baskets) for about a week and made some really nice espresso with the same beans and grinder so I thought this would be worth a shot (no pun intended) if I can source one cheap enough.


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## huw (Sep 13, 2012)

It won't really help because it's not fixing the problem. What's wrong with the espresso you're making at the moment (I'm assuming you're using decent beans)? How much ground coffee do you put in the basket, how much coffee comes out and how long does that take?


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## huw (Sep 13, 2012)

Sorry if that sounds insultingly patronising but brew ratio (mass ground coffee in / mass coffee out) is a huge help in dialling in shots...


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Not insulted - I'm grateful for any advice!

I'm using 18g to get roughly 2oz (haven't weighed it). I've tried different grind settings and tamping pressure and have managed to get 2oz over a range of times, from about 12 seconds to almost a minute. I've also tried stopping at less than 2oz (and going to more). I usually get decent crema, but the flavour just isn't there. Hard to say if it's especially sour or bitter, but it's just not quite right. Certainly not as nice as the dualit made. I've backflushed with puly caff and descaled with puly (baby?) and have flushed plenty of water through since.

Could the grind be affecting it to this extent? I assume the problem with cheaper grinders is inconsistency? The grind I end up with looks and feels pretty consistent (if a little 'fluffy') but maybe I wouldn't be able to tell from looking. If it IS the consistency, my best guess is that finer particles are being overextracted while at the same time larger ones are under extracted causing a weird taste that's not clearly over or under extracted. Or am I way off?!


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## huw (Sep 13, 2012)

Usually the problem with cheaper grinders is they can't grind fine enough, but if you can get it fine enough that it takes almost a minute to get a double shot out that seems that's not the problem. When that happens does the pump start off noisy then go quiet (like when backflushing) and then after 10-20s some coffee drips out? If so that's definitely "a choker". 2 oz that comes out in 12s should definitely taste different to 2oz that comes out in 60s. The first will be under-extracted the latter over extracted. Most people would describe the former as sour and the latter as bitter (but from what I gather from reading the opinion of people that taste coffee for a living it's not quite that simple!).

The inconsistency with cheap grinders is (in my experience) more that every so often you'll change nothing but the coffee will either choke the machine or the coffee will gush out. With a decent grinder as long as I keep the dose within +/- 0.25g the same beans need a consistent change in grind requirements as they age but it's really a tiny change.


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## huw (Sep 13, 2012)

Also (perhaps controversially) I would suggest that if you can get 18g of coffee to give you 30-35g espresso (and a £5 set of scales you can fit under the coffee cup is a very worthwhile investment) in 25-30s with decent crema perhaps try a few different espresso blends from some of the popular UK roasters (Square Mile, Hasbean, Origin, Extract etc etc). If they all taste horrible then definitely get a new grinder ASAP, if one of them tastes ok then at least you've got something to drink whilst you save up for a new grinder ;-)

(edit)

I guess another issue could be temperature stability, but to be honest if you're letting the Classic warm up for about 30 mins before use (with the portafilter attached) then a quick flush of water through, watch the light go off, wait till it comes back on and then hit the button should give you fairly reproducible temperature at the start of each shot.


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Yeh, the noise is similar to backflushing and I think that was on the 2nd notch of the grinder so it seems to be able to go fine enough. There's also a mod to bring the burrs closer, but don't think I need to do that. I'll try again in the morning and weigh everything properly (to the nearest 1g though). I may have just skipped over the magic formula that will give me drinkable coffee! I opened a new bag today (from happy donkey - sumatran I think) but only tried a couple of shots before calling it a day.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

What about showing us a picture of the grind size with something to compare it to like a coin?


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## huw (Sep 13, 2012)

That's a great idea! For comparison here's some coffee from my Macap M2 - would put 18-19g of this in a VST 18g basket and aim for 30-31g of espresso in 30s.


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

I'll get some pics in a bit. Just weighed my coffee, but I've been aiming for around 60g of espresso from 18g. Double shot basket and 2 1oz shot glasses - is that not right then?! I've actually just pulled 25g in 25 seconds from 18g would normally have let it run but wanted to weigh it. It's obviously way too strong but the flavour is there! I might be on to a break through!...


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Wow. Only took a sip and I'm still tasting it now. Kind of salted caramel ish at the moment. This is just with the Starbucks/Kirkland/Costco beans I bought a few weeks ago too.


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

You're thinking of 60ml, not 60g. The change between units can sometimes be confusing.

Generally 1ml of water weighs 1g, but 1ml of coffee contains oils, coffee solids etc and won't weigh the same.

If you want to use a ratio to brew with then start somewhere around 1.6 x your dose, so if you have 18g in, look for around 28.8g out in espresso.

Michael

Fun in a Cup Coffee Training


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## Mazza (Aug 11, 2010)

huw said:


> I'm curious as to why someone would want one of these? They might make espresso that looks ok (i.e has foam that looks a bit like crema on top) but it won't taste anything like what a Gaggia can make with a normal basket and a decent grinder...


+1, I cut mine up into tiny pieces with an angle grinder and melted it down into the shape of a dog turd so it could no longer pretend to be anything else and then sent them on a slow boat to Tuvalu hopefully never to be seen again. Well I thought about it but really I just put them in the bin, have you seen the spitting Gaggia thread ? I still have the nightmares and my course of therapy is nearly finished, well it was until you reminded me of that pressurised basket...


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

My 2 shot glasses up to the line does weigh around






60g of espresso. Should I be aiming for one shot from 18g? Just when I was closing in on perfection we had visitors so I had to stop. Didn't want to risk giving them nasty espresso so I got the cafetiere out. Here's a pic of my current grind (if it works).... I think this is about right but it needs a light to medium tamp. No idea about pressure!

I'm starting to get the impression these crema devices are not universally popular! I might not need one soon anyway (I've probably jinxed myself now).


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

60g is a bit much. The last 20-25g of that shot are likely to be over extracted. Try it at 28-35ish and see how that is! It will be more intense!

Michael

Fun in a Cup Coffee Training


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Ahhhh, that would definitely take me closer to my tasty (but strong) shot from earlier. Have I just made up the 2oz double shot? I thought that was the standard?


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## huw (Sep 13, 2012)

7 +/- 0.5g for 25 +/- 2.5 ml (including foam) per shot according to this:

http://www.espressoitaliano.org/doc/EIC%20-%20Eng%20-%20LQ.pdf

With freshly roasted beans and a bottomless portafilter it's easy to get 30g of espresso to nearly fill a standard demitasse so I'd forget about the volume and just go by brew ratio.


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

As above, pouring solely by volume is a traditional (but outdated) method.

Pour by weight and see what results you get using that sort of brew ratio  report back with your results!

Michael

Fun in a Cup Coffee Training


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

The only reason I suggest the perfect crema device was because that way at least you can use the super market coffee or the grind of yours that probably isn't really good enough to use with the non-pressurised basket. I don't condone the use of them in the slightest and think they should all be sent to the bin


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Ah, so if 7g of ground coffee makes 25g of espresso, then for 18g I should be around 65g? Think I was going for that anyway, but I'll try reducing the amount of espresso anyway as I think that will give me better flavour. I still would like to try the cremation device at least once so I can compare with the dualit.


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

No, we're coming back to brew ratios. So 7g at a 1.6 ratio would be 11.2g of espresso. So choose your dose, I.e 7-11g in a single basket, or 14-20g in a double basket etc, then apply the brew ratio, I.e 1.6 to give you a target weight of espresso.

Sorry if that's confusing!

Michael

Fun in a Cup Coffee Training


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Am a bit confused, but I'll try the 1.6 brew ratio and aim for 29g of espresso, which is half of what I've been getting.


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## huw (Sep 13, 2012)

25 ml espresso doesn't weigh 25g as a large part of the volume is crema. That's why weighing the shot is much more useful.


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Bit of an update - I decided to give up on all the measurements for a bit and just go on sight and taste. Was a lot happier with the results and have since upgraded my grinder (iberital mc5) so went back to measuring to dial it in. I realised that 18g in my double basket was actually being compacted against the shower screen (and sometimes being scraped about if I didn't insert the portafilter level) so I reduced the amount to dial in. I've now also got a 21g vst basket with a frankly beauuuuuuuuutiful tamper from madebyknock and have currently dialled in to get about 60g of espresso from 21g in around 26 seconds. Tastes good but not sure if that's the correct ratio so I might need to do a bit more tweaking and maybe even look for a smaller vst basket. My biggest problem now is milk though! I've swapped to the Silvia steam wand but I just can't get anything close to microfoam. More practice needed I think.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

There are loads of articles on here about brew ratio. Worth reading a bit about it. I'd say 60g out is quite a lot to be honest. I'd be tempted to try more like 32-35g out. Well done for getting a new grinder though. It'll change your coffee making forever


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I did you a little demo of me steaming on my Classic. Might help you (or at least prove it's not impossible)


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Thanks. The main thing I struggle to get my head around with brew ratios is that the first thing I learned about espresso was that a double shot uses 14g of espresso and should take about 25 seconds to give 2 fluid ounces (or 60ml) which should be close to 60g (at least it is for me - maybe not enough crema?!), which is miles away from a 1.6 ratio. Have I got the first bit wrong?

Cheers for the video. Dying to try again now but I've just put the baby to bed!


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

The best technique I've figured out for stretching (kind of my eureka moment) was to be really gentle with the up/down. Try to keep the tip just on the surface so it's making that paper tearing sound but not gurgling and keep your hand really still. If you move it about then you get massive bubbles and they're no good. You can always give the jug a good few wacks on the counter after to get rid of any undesirable big bubbles at the end if they do slip in there.

That 2oz from 14g might be what the book says but from experience (and from what everyone else on here says) you simply get a much better taste from something like 1.6 ratio. Much more complex and sweet. At the end of the day it's all about the taste so forget the rules and chase the taste


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

60ml from 14g is the traditional italian-style way of making coffee. Quality focused shops are coming away from this method of extracting espresso more and more and focusing on taste even if it means their shots are only 30/40/50ml.

Michael

Fun in a Cup Coffee Training


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Thanks. Going to have to get up early and have a couple more attempts!


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

I've only gone and made perfect* microfoam on the first go after watching that video. Cheers chimpsinties!

Bit gutted I messed up my attempt at latte art though!

*close enough anyway


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Nice one. The pouring is a whole new skill in itself. I've not mastered that yet but I am getting better. I've been told my jug isn't idea as it's got a wide spout. The once which are narrower at the top are better (apparently)

Which bit helped? Was it about keeping it dead still?


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

I think it was the sounds more than anything. I'd been keeping the tiptoo low to avoid making big bubbles, but I wasn't building any up. Definitely need to practice the art though!


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