# EK43 Espresso Video



## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Hello

So, embaressingly and nerdy as it feels, here is the edited highlights of a recent

EK43 espresso prep video.

Nutating looks far more vigorous than it actually was.

The jam funnel has a rubber band around the throat, on the outside, to make

the funnel sit higher out of the basket.

Swirling idea I saw on a Pergery video.

Pour is the slowest I can acheive, pressure runs at 7.5 bar on the dial whilst

shot is running.

19.3g in 40 out - 23sec

Beans - Workshop Cult of Done [ cafe taste profile from recent visit, malty, dark fruit, nice ]

Taste [from this pour] - Overly bright and not so pleasant.






-jkk


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Why are you nutating?

1:2 ratio seems a bit short.


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

No need to do that thing with the finger. Just tap the portafilter in the palm of your hand to settle the grinds.


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

MWJB said:


> Why are you nutating?
> 
> 1:2 ratio seems a bit short.


Nutating, a last resort to slow the pour . . .

Should I aim for 2.5 - 3.0 ?



bronc said:


> No need to do that thing with the finger. Just tap the portafilter in the palm of your hand to settle the grinds.


Yes sir !

Thanks

-jkk


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Nutating to slow the pour may slow it through uneven density, leading to less even extraction.

To hit 21%EY+ most folk would need a ratio of 1:2.3 or 1:2.4, going longer (yes, maybe 2.5-3.0) puts you in a better position to raise extraction, if you can still enjoy the body/dilution.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

As

Mwjb says and most of the Ek threads and users have already detailed 1:2 is at the low end of ratio of an Ek shot ...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Change the way you tamp also . If your going to nutate do it as one action at the start not after a tamp that has compacted the puck

I think you may be fracturing the puck post first tamp with your joystick nutate second tamp ...

Also a ****** 3D printed dosing funnel would stop the need for stock fleth and get coffee to the edges of the basket - improve distribution and even extraction


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

My advice would be to stop everything after the removal of the funnel and to simply tamp straight down. It looks like you are tamping really hard so maybe back off a touch as well. Everything you are doing with the fingers etc is unlikely to be doing anything good at all so get rid of it.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

All I can say is "I am glad that's not my work top "


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## PuFFaH (Aug 21, 2015)

Just looks like your over complicating things to me.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

PuFFaH said:


> Just looks like your over complicating things to me.


Don't knock it til you try it

Plus this really is more a specific prep for ek43 grinders

For better or worse they aren't dose grind and tamp grinders


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

As others have said tamp straight down after the funnel bit IMO. If you are going to nutate do it before the tamp (try it without first).


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

No grinder is, if you want the best out of them.

All grinds need to be redistributed in one way or another, EK just need a longer routine then a classic espresso grinder.

Tamp and go is in all fairness a sloppy technique that tend to create unevenness, espresso grinders doesn't really change that.

That said I also believe he is overcomplicating things. fingers should be avoided at all coast, as these only create an uneven distribution/density and moving the top layer of the coffee.

Nutation should be used before tamp or your ending up with a fractured puck. Nutation might also create an uneven density .


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Hello

Thanks everyone for the comments.

Deginately makes sense now to nutate before tamp.

But how to get even distribution without fingers . . .

The swirling helps a bit, but always a bit lopsided.

Thanks again.

-JKK


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

Tap the portafilter on the side until the grounds become level. Even Perger recommends it







You can try a mini cocktail whisk and stir the grounds with it. See Frans' videos on YouTube. You can grind in a pitcher and shake it around before disributing with the funnel.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Perger says not to nutate at all.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

try spraying a wee drop of water on the beans before you grind them.


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

I'm all for that. 3 squirts of water from an atomiser does wonders

Remember to open the grind a little


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

JKK said:


> But how to get even distribution without fingers . . .
> 
> The swirling helps a bit, but always a bit lopsided.
> 
> ...


Mashing it around with your fingers isn't helping I would guess. What you are doing is compressing grinds and making it even worse before you tamp.

Try tipping out the grinds around the side of the funnel instead of dumping it in the middle. Don't swirl (I've had worse results using this) remove funnel. Tap the pf lightly on each side against your hand and then down a few times onto a softer surface such as rubber. This breaks down clumps and evens out the distribution for me at least.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Flour sifter, 3d printed funnel , get those fingers off the grinds , forget nutation . Get someone with a refractometer round to measure your TDS and work out a recipe which works with the machine you have


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Hello

Thanks for all the tips.

I have tried again today without fingers & nutation.

Shot time was about the same at 35g, but I ran it longer to 47g.

Tasted better.

Lesson learnt - 2.5 ratio is definitely better.

I will report back again after the morning coffee !

One question, regardless of taste, does the orig. shot time seem

ok for grinding at 1.0 ?

Cheers

-JKK


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Regarding the funnel, the gasket mod on the funnel throat

works well to keep it out of the basket:

With 3D print funnel, do you grind direct into the PF or decant via

a tumbler ?

-JKK


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Try a spray of water, seriously.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

We run 18 into a minimum of 54g at Tilt to achieve a good flavour balance with the EK on zero and a machine with standard pressure / flow rate / water . Shots times are 20-30 sec depending on coffee used.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Try a spray of water, seriously.


This will slow the shot down, defo give it a go


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Also how far do you back the burrs off when calibrating?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

You aren't getting a sort of false chirp because of bits of bean stuck in the grinder?


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Hello

I know about chirping, I usually adjust after cleaning, and line up

for a "mashing" sound !

I back them off hardly at all, maybe a hint of one subdivision on original dial.

I tried the water spritz today, and I noticed two things:

- There is much less static, I think this lets all the fine particles through to the

PF which are usually left clinging to the tumbler or grinder spout.

This could make a big difference to the pour, as with static these fines are left

stuck to the machine.

- The downside is, the moisture increases the physical volume of the grind in the PF,

higher than the sides, which is very awkward if no fingers are aloud to settle the grind.

I tried tapping the PF bit the grinds fall out of the PF. Dose is 19g in a 20gVST.

-JKK


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I get 20g in a 20g VST no problem. Give it a good shake with the funnel on to make the bed as even as possible then tamp.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

JKK said:


> higher than the sides, which is very awkward if no fingers are aloud to settle the grind.
> 
> I tried tapping the PF bit the grinds fall out of the PF. Dose is 19g in a 20gVST.
> 
> -JKK


Sorry not showing off  but I had 19g in an 18g vst no issue, grinding a couple of notches under 2 with the Classic dial. I give it a shake around a little with the funnel in place, as Jeebsy suggested


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> I get 20g in a 20g VST no problem. Give it a good shake with the funnel on to make the bed as even as possible then tamp.


Oops, sorry typing error.

19g on VST18.

With the water spritz it is too high, unless using a mashing tamper style, without

preparing the grinds in the PF somehow.

-JKK


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

You could be overloading the basket and it old be lack of headroom that's causing channelling. Dose 18g in 18g vst until your issues are resolved.


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

jlarkin said:


> Sorry not showing off  but I had 19g in an 18g vst no issue, grinding a couple of notches under 2 with the Classic dial. I give it a shake around a little with the funnel in place, as Jeebsy suggested


Which burrs ? New or old.

I tried 18g in 18VST grind at 1.7 Classic Dial, and the shot went straight through without the

machine getting a chance to ramp up to 8bar, topped out at 4bar.

-JKK


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

JKK said:


> Which burrs ? New or old.
> 
> I tried 18g in 18VST grind at 1.7 Classic Dial, and the shot went straight through without the
> 
> ...


It's very new burrs (only had it about a week) . Changed coffee to SilverOak Finca Santa something and having to go to a bit finer but still getting 19g into the 18 VST, maybe about 1.6ish on the dial? Got the shot through in about 22seconds, which I'd like to increase a little but still getting used to everything as well.


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

I had an enlightening/depressing call with the Mahlkonig distributor today.

After explaining my dilemma regarding grind fineness, he said

coffee burrs shouldn't be used for espresso, and that was the reason

for the problem I was seeing.

I explained plenty of people on this forum seem ok with coffee burrs

but he wasn't very positive regarding coffee burrs for espresso.

:-(

-jkk


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Lolzz..... He doesn't know want he is talking about....


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

JKK said:


> I had an enlightening/depressing call with the Mahlkonig distributor today.
> 
> After explaining my dilemma regarding grind fineness, he said
> 
> ...


Was that Mahlkonig UK/La Spaziale?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

It's doesn't make ristretto send it back


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

Don't expect the Mahlkonig distributors to know the latest trends in the specialty coffee scene. The coffee burrs can and are used for espresso by many people. It's just not the typical Italian style one..


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Mahlkonig UK seem to be a bit uninformed. When they changed the burrs we made a few enquiries and they denied it vigorously, I finally got the correct answer direct from Mahlkonig proper. Sounds like they fobbed you off with the easy answer. Many home users/shops/baristas/ukbc champs use coffee burrs for espresso I wonder who is correct....

Have you tired 18 in 18g vst?

Can you make a vid of the chirping your burrs make when they touch?


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Was that Mahlkonig UK/La Spaziale?


Yup.

He was fully aware about the new coffee burrs, but even with those he did'nt think they

were suitable for espresso.

Strange.



Xpenno said:


> Mahlkonig UK seem to be a bit uninformed. When they changed the burrs we made a few enquiries and they denied it vigorously, I finally got the correct answer direct from Mahlkonig proper. Sounds like they fobbed you off with the easy answer. Many home users/shops/baristas/ukbc champs use coffee burrs for espresso I wonder who is correct....
> 
> Have you tired 18 in 18g vst?
> 
> Can you make a vid of the chirping your burrs make when they touch?


18g in 18VST yes:

- OK-ish for Climpson Estate Espresso Blend

- But disaster for Workshop Finca Tamana & Workshop Loma Decaf - gushed straight thru

before pump got past 4bar !

Hmmm.

Chirp video coming !

-jKK


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

How about a darker roasted coffee?


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> How about a darker roasted coffee?


The Climpson Estate is about as dark as my preference goes.

The Loma Decaf is pretty dark.

I'm not really keen on classic Italian style roast.

I thought the EK was popular for using lighter roasts ?

-JKK


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

It is but you need to go quite fine with light roasts, I was curious if you could get a slower pour with a darker roast.

I got 52 out in 50 secs with a Small Batch this morning (unintentionally)


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

JKK said:


> Yup.
> 
> He was fully aware about the new coffee burrs, but even with those he did'nt think they
> 
> ...


My point not that they don't know about new burrs now, it was more that they didn't at the time and the fact that owners were palmed off with other excuses.

My other point was don't listen to the guy who's going to have issues/costs associated with you potentially having a faulty unit but listen to the 1000's of users who are using them for espresso.


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> It is but you need to go quite fine with light roasts, I was curious if you could get a slower pour with a darker roast.
> 
> I got 52 out in 50 secs with a Small Batch this morning (unintentionally)


Wow !

I think the slowest pour I can get on 1.1 with Climpson Estate is

18.5g > 47g in 24sec



Xpenno said:


> My point not that they don't know about new burrs now, it was more that they didn't at the time and the fact that owners were palmed off with other excuses.
> 
> My other point was don't listen to the guy who's going to have issues/costs associated with you potentially having a faulty unit but listen to the 1000's of users who are using them for espresso.


Thanks.

Indeed I am listening to you guys, which has been very helpful, and very kind.

But unfortunately if there is an issue, it doesnt feel like Mahlkonig are going to fix it.

I noticed on your blog, you have tried all three burrs, did you find the the new Coffee Burrs

worthwhile, over the old ones, or indeed the Turkish ?

One burr thought about the decent cafes locally, who use EK for espresso:

Origin [very good] - - - - - - - Turkish for Decaf

Craft Coffee [great] - - - - - - - Turkish [i think]

Lanark [great] -- - - - - - - - - - - Coffee

Bulldog [not great] - - - - - - - - - Turkish

Cheers

-JKK


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Have you got a 20g basket yet . At full pressure I was running 20g > 45-50g


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Some chirping sounds -

Zeroing in:











-JKK


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Have you got a 20g basket yet . At full pressure I was running 20g > 45-50g


Hello.

Sorry, no.

Kind of running out of money this month with coffee purchases:

Decent beans for testing, Torr Tamper, Printed Funnel Yey !

-JKK


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

JKK said:


> Some chirping sounds -
> 
> Zeroing in:


When you switch off the motor, you can hear the chirp turn to a click, it suggests that the burrs are only touching for a very small part of the rotation. I would try the alignment method, I used.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

JKK said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Indeed I am listening to you guys, which has been very helpful, and very kind.
> 
> ...


My opinion is that coffee burrs are able to achieve the highest extraction yields and that Turkish burrs act more like a traditional grinder and prefer slightly lower EY. New coffee burrs are just tweaked slightly to allow for a finer grind but produce the same grind size profile in theory.

You should be able to make decent espresso with the old coffee burrs, especially on the darker roasts. If there are problems outside of this i.e. alignment issues then new burrs are unlikely to resolve them as they are manufactured to high tolerances and variation is probably coming from the grinder itself i.e. the burr carrier, main grinder body, the rod on which the burr carrier sits, the front dial panel being out of whack.....


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## radish (Nov 20, 2011)

Isn't Oli Bradshaw (used to work at Square Mile) working for Mahlkonig now? I would assume he's update to date on the latest EK developments?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

radish said:


> Isn't Oli Bradshaw (used to work at Square Mile) working for Mahlkonig now? I would assume he's update to date on the latest EK developments?


He is indeed working for them


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> When you switch off the motor, you can hear the chirp turn to a click, it suggests that the burrs are only touching for a very small part of the rotation. I would try the alignment method, I used.


Good observation.

I have indeed aligned the burrs 3 times, using a method similar to yours, only I used red water colour paint.









I can only get the fixed burr to touch on two opposite sides, very strange.

I get about 75% touch on the rotating burr.

-JKK


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

radish said:


> Isn't Oli Bradshaw (used to work at Square Mile) working for Mahlkonig now? I would assume he's update to date on the latest EK developments?


He was the guy I spoke with . . .


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

JKK said:


> Good observation.
> 
> I have indeed aligned the burrs 3 times, using a method similar to yours, only I used red water colour paint.
> 
> ...


Are you aligning both radially and axially?


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> Are you aligning both radially and axially?


Oooh . . .

I'm not sure I know which is which.

Sorry could you explain the difference.

-jkk


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

JKK said:


> Oooh . . .
> 
> I'm not sure I know which is which.
> 
> ...


The one pictured in your photo is radial alignment.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I think technically it should be radial and angular (not axial) but I could be wrong.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

JKK said:


> He was the guy I spoke with . . .


Lols


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

JKK where have you positioned the shims? It's very hard to tell from your photo where the contact has occurred.


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

risky said:


> JKK where have you positioned the shims? It's very hard to tell from your photo where the contact has occurred.


Hello

The photo is just after painting [water colour], befor zeroing and burr contact.

After about five more repaints and zeroing tests I ended up with the following shims.

- 5folds of tin foil at around 2 o'clock and 4 o'clock on the rotating burr. [ 12 o'clock being an arbitarliy chosen position on the burr ]

- 2folds tin foil at 5 o'clock on the stationary burr. [ 12 o'clock being the top of the burr ]



Xpenno said:


> The one pictured in your photo is radial alignment.


Ok.

Any tips on how to attempt angular/axial alightment ?

-jkk


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

JKK said:


> Hello
> 
> The photo is just after painting [water colour], befor zeroing and burr contact.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you are doing this in the description above so I think you have it covered.

To touch on 2 sides would mean that the burrs are not flat? Or the carrier is not running true.

Have you tried taking the burrs out and placing them on a flat surface to see if if they are flat? If you place them on the surface (face down and then face up) and press around the sides they should never raise or allow you to push down.


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> It sounds like you are doing this in the description above so I think you have it covered.
> 
> To touch on 2 sides would mean that the burrs are not flat? Or the carrier is not running true.
> 
> Have you tried taking the burrs out and placing them on a flat surface to see if if they are flat? If you place them on the surface (face down and then face up) and press around the sides they should never raise or allow you to push down.


Ah I see, sorry yes the photo shows the plastic shims for radial[?] aligining the burr on the shaft centre, the shims for the axis

thing came later, after the paint.

One thought is how to align the static burr for radial centrality [is that a word], as there is'nt anything to shim

it against ?

Agree its strange about the satic burr, I will put it on some formica tomorrow . . .

-jkk


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

@JKK that is a strange photo with the shims. It almost looks like you've put them on the inner side of the burrs, between them and the auger. Aren't they supposed to go on the outer side? Hopefully others can chime in if I'm talking rubbish or not


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

alexferdi said:


> @JKK that is a strange photo with the shims. It almost looks like you've put them on the inner side of the burrs, between them and the auger. Aren't they supposed to go on the outer side? Hopefully others can chime in if I'm talking rubbish or not


Hello

These are just plastic spacers, to position the burr centrally on the shaft/auger.

Once the burrs is fixed in place and the screws are tightened, and the spacers are removed.

-jkk


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

alexferdi said:


> @JKK that is a strange photo with the shims. It almost looks like you've put them on the inner side of the burrs, between them and the auger. Aren't they supposed to go on the outer side? Hopefully others can chime in if I'm talking rubbish or not


Inside seems to be better as there have been variances recorded with the length of the sweaper arms on the burr carrier.


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Another day, another burr alignment session !

There is a small amount of play around the outside edge of the static burr, so mounting it

centered is not easily achieved.

As there is no obvious way of aligning the static burr, I tried a trial and error approach.

By mounting it pushed to each outer edge: NE,S,NW to see how that affected the

burr contact in the paint tests.

Interestingly the most contact amount, resulted in the burr being offset in the NE position.

This seemed to achieve a better result than using shims for the static burr.

Result in the cup:

Foundry Rocko Mountain

19.5g in 18VST > 48g out in 23sec on grind setting 1.4

Tasted good, although a bit thin on flavour depth.

-jkk


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