# Newb looking to make the switch from filter to espresso



## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

Hi,

I'm currently fairly new to the world of coffee and have started out with making filter coffee (French press, aeropress...etc). However am currently considering making the transition to espresso coffee. Although i'm a big fan of my aeropress after reading loads of the posts on here about all the different types of espresso machines its tempting me to make the switch. After a bit of research I think the Sage Barista Express may be the best machine to suit my needs... anyway I have a couple of questions about espresso:

1. Is the transition from filter to espresso a big difference in taste and general quality of coffee?

2. Is the Sage Barista Express a decent espresso machine? If not is there any machines better value for money at around £550 new.

3. Is a machine with built in grinder better value for money, or will I be better off getting them separately?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

1. Espresso is a more intense experience- not better - just different.

2. It does a job but can't compare to an espresso machine and decent grinder. Depends whether you want convenience over quality.

3.Definitely not. B2C machines are a compromise. If you want to get the best out of the bean espresso-wise, go for espresso machine and grinder.

Budget of £550 will get you a decent set up - more so if you are savvy and source kit from our for sale thread.

Decent grinder is crucial - spend half your budget on one.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Go and drink some espresso from some cafes to see if you like it . Try not to get sucked into " it's all about the gear " enjoy whatever drink you are making ( aeropress etc ) . Espresso is hard , so go and try some good stuff before you leap into a machine and grinder


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## Wes78 (Apr 18, 2017)

I've owned sages Oracle (b2cup) for a couple of months now.

looking back, for me it was definitely the right purchase at the time. I experiment if I want to, I don't if I don't. It affords me both. The resulting coffee I find is very good to my tastes.

Other comments are spot on, do you even like espresso? Do you want convenience? . I shall echo these.

I do now find myself interested in other brew methods (much cheaper) as boots , sorry, MR boots  eludes to. I am going to invest in a grinder for French press and aeropress for example. I like to have options.

so yes, go and try different types of coffee, see what you prefer then make an informed choice.

oh I will also add that I have found quirks with this b2cup machine like any machine. For example, how full the hopper needs to be for consistency, do you leave beans in hopper, flushing group for temp consistency, purging grinds left in grinder. All these make a difference for me.

ha! And I said I got the oracle for convenience


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

Hey guys, thanks for the replies. So if a machine with a built in grinder isn't the best option, what separate machines do you recommend. I think the Duo Temp is a sensible option, can anyone recommend me a decent grinder for roughly £100 second hand or refurb as I don't think i'm gonna have the budget I first thought


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Don't skimp on the grinder, if you do not have the budget for a decent grinder WAIT until you do. The quality of the grinder has a major effect on the quality of your coffee.


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## MatBat (Feb 15, 2017)

I will be posting a second hand duo temp pro for sale this evening.

Bought in July last year and used for 9 months when I upgraded to a Dual Boiler in April this year.

Totally agree on the grinder point. Going second hand for a beginners machine will allow a bigger budget for your grinder and will give you a better experience whilst you 'learn the ropes'


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

Do you think the Sage SG is the best grinder in its price range? I've seen them for about £130, second hand and refurb, or is there better grinders for the price?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Rakesh said:


> Do you think the Sage SG is the best grinder in its price range? I've seen them for about £130, second hand and refurb, or is there better grinders for the price?


there is a mignon in the sales thread for £180 second hand that would be a better option


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Also £155 Gaggia Classic, pair that with the minion and you've got a good little starting setup there


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

Ah thanks, I'll have to check it out. Turns out my budget is around £320ish . Is a refurbished DTP and SG the best set up for this price? I've seen the Gaggia Classic is a much loved starting machine, is this any better of worse than the DTP?


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## MatBat (Feb 15, 2017)

I had the sage grinder for my first grinder for about 8 months. It's good value for money and was great for me at the start of my espresso journey but I outgrew it relatively quickly. If you can I would try get something a bit better to start that is renowned for being a solid grinder for espresso.

i still have my sage grinder but keep it for filter - works quite well and for what I could sell it for there probably isn't much that would beat it (besides a good hand grinder)


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## MatBat (Feb 15, 2017)

I haven't used a gaggia classic before so will let others comment. The 54mm vs 58mm portafilter is one obvious difference. Plus classics are renowned for their durability/longevity

for the DTP (I'll list in more detail this evening) - very quick start up time (1-2 mins), pre infusion, PID, solid steam power (great for learning latte art imo), generally very user friendly design and convenient (as with all breville/sage procuts)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

pid v temp surfing is the biggest difference


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

Ah I see the DTP may be the better option, there's a few refurbs on ebay for around £215 which seems reasonable.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

or buy a pidded classic or get a classics and fit mr shades pid kit to it. There are downsides to the possible longevity of the sage machines v a classic but stable temp really is the key to getting espresso right at the start on these machines .

Ask yourself , are you ok to weigh in and out with your espresso , use half decent water, is the faff worth the differences between what you are enjoying now ?


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

Thanks for the suggestions, i'm definitely interested in making my own espresso no doubt and I understand there is a steep learning curve and a lot of faff that comes with it, but i'm willing to endure that to make great espresso at home.

As for a PID'd Classic will the PID need much work when using the machine or is it sort of a fit once and never really have to bother much about it type of thing?


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

@MrShades might be better placed to answer the above PID question.

John


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

Also, does temp surfing add much more to the difficulty of making espresso?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Rakesh said:


> Also, does temp surfing add much more to the difficulty of making espresso?


Yes t does ... stable temp allows you to focus on the rest of the process .


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Rakesh said:


> Thanks for the suggestions, i'm definitely interested in making my own espresso no doubt and I understand there is a steep learning curve and a lot of faff that comes with it, but i'm willing to endure that to make great espresso at home.
> 
> As for a PID'd Classic will the PID need much work when using the machine or is it sort of a fit once and never really have to bother much about it type of thing?


Thanks for pointing me towards this @johnealey

Every machine with a PID has it installed in such a way that it's largely "install and forget". You don't really need to touch them - and there's no real reason why a Classic couldn't have the PID mounted on the rear, and completely out of sight.

Obviously, like every other PID controlled machine - you MAY wish to change configuration parameters (usually only brew temp or steam temp, but the actual PID algorithm parameters can also be adjusted if you do wish). You might change the temp as you experiment with new beans for example.

I think the DTP allows you to change the temp (using various LEDs on the machine to help) in a +/- 2 or 3 degrees or so. The Classic doesn't have a PID as standard though adding one is almost a necessity - and if you do so then you have free reign to set brew or steam temp to any absolute value (91.4c for example). [Theres a good argument that says having this level of control on a machine with such a small boiler is pointless - but it gives you significant control of the target brew temp, even if it's not strictly the actual brew temp for the entire duration of a shot).

The DTP is a marvel of hi-tech and has a PID controller boiler and heating element in the group head - so I'd assume that it's probably more temp stable than a Classic - but whilst a 10yr old Classic is probably still going strong (if properly maintained) and is easily fixed if it does have issues.... I'm far from sure that the DTP would be in the same state after a few years use and would probably be in landfill rather than being repaired.

A tricky choice - if both machines are in fine working condition and the Classic had a PID then I'd guess that you could probably get more consistent shots from the DTP.... but for how long is anyone's guess


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

@MrShades Very informative reply, definitely widened my knowledge on the difference in PID between the 2 machines, thanks a ton for the info i'll be sure to take it into account when choosing between the machines. Think i'm leaning towards the DTP just due to pre installed PID.

Cheers

Rakesh


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Rakesh said:


> @MrShades Very informative reply, definitely widened my knowledge on the difference in PID between the 2 machines, thanks a ton for the info i'll be sure to take it into account when choosing between the machines. Think i'm leaning towards the DTP just due to pre installed PID.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rakesh


No problem - and as I said the DTP should produce some great coffee for a while, and if - perhaps after you've had your 2nd warranty replacement within 2 years and opted for your money back then you could always buy a more traditional a machine then ;-)


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Just to add that I've noticed your posts looking for used Sage equipment - though I would seriously recommend having the protection of a good (Lakeland / John Lewis) warranty if you're going down that route.

I know far too many people who have bought Sage gear and have had to use the retail warranty, and if it were me then I'd want similar protection and not risk spending £300-400 only to find that something important breaks after a few months and you have zero options.


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

@MrShades Good point, sounds like it is worth buying from retail with sage or avoiding buying second hand sage gear.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Well, its your money and your choice - all I'm saying is that if it were me then I'd buy new and from a retailer with a solid warranty (but I also adopt that policy with many other electronic / tech purchases).


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

Definitely settled on the DTP, now just whether to buy second hand or not. Any DTP owners who can give some info on its longevity.


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