# £1500 budget....



## DMS (Oct 18, 2018)

Hi all

New to the forum and need your help!

My current set up consists of a Gaggia Coffee Delux (I think it similar to the Gaggia Classic) with an upgraded steam wand and a sage grinder. I'm achieving good coffee most of the time but it's inconsistent. We are about to rip out the kitchen and as part of the budget have approx £1500 (max) to invest in coffee! I have already ruled out an integrated appliance due to the appalling taste, which is a shame as they look great...

My first thought was a Rocket Giotto - love the styling, gets good reviews etc but the more I have read the more confused I have become.

Should I consider an ECM or a Profitec instead of the Rocket, or actually spend less on the machine and upgrade the grinder - so maybe an Appartamento? Or buy the Giotto (or other alternative) now and persist with my current grinder until I have cash to upgrade it?

Or even something else!

Thanks ?


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## _HH_ (Oct 10, 2018)

I'd get a sage dual boiler and a Niche. Should come in nicely on budget and you'll have access to a whole load of features you don't get with the rocket. Variable pressure/length of preinfusion, saturated group, shot timer, very very temperature stable, ability to play with pressure profiling, no faffing around with cooling flushes, ability to set the temperature accurately and consistently, ability to change steam temperature...

I was in exactly the same position as you and that's what I went for. I started out with the sage Smart Grinder Pro but I would recommend spending a good chunk of money to upgrade from the sage to a decent grinder. The two best home grinders I have seen are the Sette 270 and the Niche.

I don't think the sage looks as nice as the rocket, but personally having considered both, I felt the sage is a machine that I could grow into, and had more features than a lot of the medium-range machines such as the LMLM.

Let me know what you end up getting!

Henry


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The Sage DB very probably does offer the best feature / price option by a long way. It also has a very short heat up time compared with just about any machine other than ones that use a thermoblock / thermocoil. It's also a dual boiler machine which is something many would prefer to own rather than an HX machine that uses a single boiler as there are less complications associated with use. They will also accept taller mugs than many other machines. The other factor is that they are easy to descale. Many need a spanner type approach.

The downside may be diy repairs. I say maybe because I haven't had the need to do any myself yet. It would be fair to say that indications in this respect aren't good. There are some parts on the machine that are likely to fail probably after around 3 years. These parts are dead cheap, having them fitted by Sage isn't. However engineer repairs on any machine are pricey. Best option here if buying new is to get it from Lakeland for the extended guarantee.

Foibles - pucks sticking to the shower screen. They can be sort of flushed off if needed and i have found that it doesn't happen with certain doses of grinds but some of that may well be down to the none standard shower screen I have fitted. It though needs a bit more attention to keep it reasonably clean.

Niche grinder - probably ideal but Niche so far have always been late with their delivery times. Currently I don't think people can just go buy one and expect it to arrive a couple of days later.

Spending more may not help with consistency. Much of that is down to how people use them. No mention of what grinder is being used with the Gaggia for instance.







Having more facilities to play with could even make that worse.

John

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## DMS (Oct 18, 2018)

Thanks both

@henry - I will look into the sage DB over the weekend!

@john - currently using the sage grinder. My biggest issue currently is the temperature - seems to vary wildly even with flushes. The machine is now at least 10 years old and showing signs of wear (corrosion on the body and a bit leaky).


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

DMS said:


> Thanks both
> 
> @henry - I will look into the sage DB over the weekend!
> 
> @john - currently using the sage grinder. My biggest issue currently is the temperature - seems to vary wildly even with flushes. The machine is now at least 10 years old and showing signs of wear (corrosion on the body and a bit leaky).


did anyone mention to you, that with the Sage, as soon as you are out of warranty you will be looking over your shoulder with it? I have had several and yes do rate them, but would have serious doubts that they are capable of lasting many years due to the non commercial complex electronic based build quality.....you see many coffee machines that are 10 and 20 years old. I suspect when the time is right, you will have to visit a museum to see a sage of that age


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## DMS (Oct 18, 2018)

To be honest, the sage machines were not in my thought process until today, as all of the advice seemed to be go with an E61 group head for longevity. My sage grinder has done a good job for me so far, but knew when I bought it a few years ago it was probably one to last a few years rather than a buy once and keep forever kind of solution if I was going to continue to progress the quality of coffee made at home . If I'm spending (to me) serious cash on a machine I really want it to last and continue to perform. I will do my usual due diligence before making a final decision on the sage DB. Looking at other forum posts, I think I can conclude that the grinder is as (if not more) important than the machine - I'm just not sure if the sage grinder I currently have would be adequate for a new machine, whether the new machine should max my current available funds and then upgrade the grinder in the future or if a new grinder and lower priced machine should be the way to go.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

a machine is a machine, and thats from someone who has had dozens! learn the foibles attached to the machine. If you make milk based do yu need a twin boiler? A lot of modern hx style machines no longer need the cooling flush associated with them. Unless you are using bottled water anyway, a cooling flush becomes irrelevant. A decent hx....lelit

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-machines/all-coffee-machines/heat-exchanger.html?manufacturer=242

matched with a Niche if you want to single dose, will keep you going for many a year. Remember, when you ask for advice on here, what you often get told is what the other person has bought, not the answer to your question, and no.......I do not own a Lelit!


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## DMS (Oct 18, 2018)

Thanks. I think a trip to BB is in order in the near future!


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

So your comparing Sage against La Marzocco Really.

I felt the sage is a machine that I could grow into, and had more features than a lot of the medium-range machines such as the LMLM. #idontbelieveyou


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

DMS if you're looking for a high end e61 machine that will last forever and look beautiful look in the for sale section ;-)


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## DMS (Oct 18, 2018)

kennyboy - just a few more posts and I will gain access to that section!


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## DMS (Oct 18, 2018)

No sure I follow you here. Surely it's comparing a sage DB to similar priced lelit machine?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> DMS if you're looking for a high end e61 machine that will last forever and look beautiful look in the for sale section ;-)


LOL from a man that I think said he was going to switch to Sage,







not sure I believe him. Probably a DTP

HX machine that doesn't need a flush after leaving standing ? Hard to believe other than a model that uses PID temperature control of a single boiler. It can be switched from steam to brew temperature. How? Wait some time for the temp to drop or let off steam until it gets to the right temperature. Going from brew to steam - wait while it heats to that temperature. How long depends on the size of the boiler in both cases.

Afraid I can't for the life of me see how bottled water can help with not flushing - less descaling yes.








HX - I am actually seriously thinking of buying one but am well aware of the problems. All of them.

The Sage grinders are often seriously criticised. I didn't have much of a problem achieving consistency with either of the ones I have used. Oddly since switching to flat I've generally found it needs more frequent adjustment.

John

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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ajohn said:


> LOL from a man that I think said he was going to switch to Sage,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have an HX that does not need flushing so I speak as an owner, not a wannabe

The reference to bottled water was cost, not flushing

apart from that, nearly spot on......


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

ajohn said:


> HX machine that doesn't need a flush after leaving standing ? Hard to believe other than a model that uses PID temperature control of a single boiler. It can be switched from steam to brew temperature. How? Wait some time for the temp to drop or let off steam until it gets to the right temperature. Going from brew to steam - wait while it heats to that temperature. How long depends on the size of the boiler in both cases.


Most HX's are designed so that the boiler temperature, that is hot enough to produce good steam, is offset by the HX design to ensure the water in the HX flowing to the group is at or around 93-94c. It's basic engineering and doesn't need a PID as it doesn't add anything.


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

If I was going to spend that kind of money right now iy would be a rocket appartamento and a niche grinder.


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## DMS (Oct 18, 2018)

Looks like everyone is backing the niche grinder!


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## DMS (Oct 18, 2018)

I'm sure the niche is great, but why no portafilter holder?


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

If the Lelit is so good then..why does no one buy them in comparison to Rocket, ECM/Profitec and Sage? I have seen them before but dismissed as I haven't come across anyone on here ever using them.

As for the Niche's lack of PF holder my *guess* is that so people don't use them in commercial setups. They either don't wish to disrupt commercial environment, or there is a commercial model planned down the road.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

thesmileyone said:


> If the Lelit is so good then..why does no one buy them in comparison to Rocket, ECM/Profitec and Sage? I have seen them before but dismissed as I haven't come across anyone on here ever using them.
> 
> As for the Niche's lack of PF holder my *guess* is that so people don't use them in commercial setups. They either don't wish to disrupt commercial environment, or there is a commercial model planned down the road.


Swallow some of your words!

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2017/11/20/lelit-mara-pl62s/

There are a few lelit owners on here. Why ro Rocket score so highly? Shiney, quite attractive, not particularly well made (the one I had anyway) yet people drool over them. Can you tell a shot made on a Rocket to another machine.....I doubt it!

Niche grind into the cup because that is the way the whole grinder was designed to function. A pf causes static and would need a redesign.....for the few cups a day mot people drink in the home, does it really matter


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## DMS (Oct 18, 2018)

i think it's easier to be honest to dispense straight into a portafiler rather than in a cup, then transferring it.


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## _HH_ (Oct 10, 2018)

Jony said:


> So your comparing Sage against La Marzocco Really.
> 
> I felt the sage is a machine that I could grow into, and had more features than a lot of the medium-range machines such as the LMLM. #idontbelieveyou


Ha! Absolutely - why not? It does have more features and is far cheaper. Would I like a Linea Mini? I would indeed, but if I had one I'd still miss things that the BDB offers that the LM doesn't, such as the integrated shot timer, digital rather than analogue PID and variable preinfusion...

If you don't believe that I felt the sage was a machine I could grow into, that's a bit weird, as that's up to me! If you 'don't believe' that the 920XL has the features that I've described above (that the La Marzocco lacks) then I'd invite you to read up about the machines in a bit more detail.


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