# E61 versus Lever Machines



## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

OK, here's the thing:

I fell into lever world almost by chance; I was just about to treat myself to a Rocket or an Expobar Dual when a second-hand Olympia Cremina came up for sale. I loved it. The Londinium I came along and I was so impressed by that I bought it and sold the Olympia.

Lever machines make great coffee, no doubt about that. But I've never owned an E61 machine so I can't make a direct comparison. What interests me is that the particular mechanical qualities of the lever group which has evolved over decades - pre-infusion, pressure and temperature profiles - are what the E61 group and electronic controls seek to emulate. Do they do it as well? Do they, in fact, do it better?

Obvious advantages of the dual boiler/PID/E61 machine is that it temperature and other variables can be adjusted very easily. Advantage of the lever group is the beauty and simplicity of design and its reliablity. There is also a belief that the column of water pushed down by the lever cylinder extracts better than the bursts of water that come from a pump - whatever it is, there does seem to be some sort of lever magic.

But I want to cut through the myths and prejudices and get to the truth. Has anybody here owned and or operated a lever machine (ideally with full-size commercial lever group) AND a fully equipped E61 machine and can make a direct an honest comparison? And if not, is it something we could set up for a shoot-out?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Good idea. Some weeks ago, I sought feedback from forum members when deciding whether to go for an E61 machine or a lever machine which was helpful. After a good deal of thought, I went for a lever machine which I can't comment about as it hasn't yet arrived.

For me, what swayed my decision was that I favoured simplicity of design and less dependence on electronics. But it would be an interesting experiment to put say, a Londinium, up against an E61 machine and compare the differences, if any.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

I owned a Gaggia Factory (rebadged la pavoni) for a year or so and really loved it for the simplicity and the quality of the shots compared to how cheap and small it is. This is obviously completely different to commercial spring levers that I'm guessing you're getting at.

I think that the quality of e61 groups is mainly down to the thermosyphon which keeps the temp stable as long as you let it get up to temp in the first place. I believe that there are other features like expansion chambers which allow the pressure to ramp up slowly (although there are experiments on HB which dispute whether this is a factor in the quality of the espresso).

Making comparisons on espresso quality is very difficult. You would need two identical grinders because there would inevitably be some dialling in between machines that would prohibit side by side tasting. Lets say you had two identical grinders, then what coffee do you use? If its a light ish roast the temp of the lever might not be right. Then after that everyone's palate is different (as I touched on in the 'did the Italians get it right' thread) so agreeing on anything might be difficult.

I would love to see the WBCs allow competitors the choice of a lever machine or a pump driven machine then see how the scores pan out over a few competitions. This would allow people used to judging espresso at a high level to give some insight.

Ultimately I think there are bigger considerations when buying a machine for the home such as the size, cost and whether you use different roast levels regularly.


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

Well I have a Londinium 1 and it is my first proper espresso machine. I was inspired to buy a machine by a friend who has a commercial Faema E98 machine. I started by looking for something that would fit in my kitchen but which had some bells and whistles... Perhaps a Vivaldi or something like that C£1200-£1500... but in the end I bought the above.

From research, it seemed that you get more bang for the buck in that price range with the commercial lever and within that range the Londinium has to be regarded as exceptional value. As RoloD says, it does all the clever stuff by default. On the other hand, the more you spend on a semi-auto the closer you get to the lever and perhaps more creative ideas.

The difference, I suspect will be less noticeable when say spending £6000 on a semi-auto like a La Marzocco vs a Lever up to £3000.

So in other words, it is worth attempting some sort of a "shoot out" (horrible phrase), but I think that one would have to disregard price when choosing equivalent machines.

Though having said that, I know of at least two forum users, that have a La Marzocco and a Londinium Lever, and they seem to prefer the latter...


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## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

I've got an Izzo vivi pid and an L I, but I havent run them side by side.

The Izzo takes about 40 mins to warm up, and I give it about a 25 sec flush before I do the shot.

The L I warms up much quicker and no cooling flush, but they both make fantastic coffee.

The L I requires a finer grind than the Izzo.

There is a different taste between the two machines, I think the L I has a smoother taste, I dont really know how else to descibe It.


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## CoffeeDoc (Dec 26, 2012)

I am about to take the plunge and get a proper espresso machine, I am due to do the barista day at Bella Barista in March and will look at a selection of machines then, I was initially thinking of a twin boiler machine, Alex or Rocket, with a Della Corte the outsider, but then I found more about levers and am extremely tempted by the Londinium 1. The other great conumdrum is which grinder? My thought is a Mazzer Mini E. I don't think that I can justify the cost and hassle of ordering an HG one, but perhaps someone can persuade me!

Paul


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I bought an HG One and can really say it is worth pushing the boat out for.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

What interests me is that I believe lever machines do bring out a wider range of flavour in coffee. I also think they are particularly forgiving. But I would like to put this assumption to the test - as I said at the start of this thread, I have never owned a E61 machine or, before levers, anything more sophisticated than a Gaggia Classic.

I am also interested in the two different philosophies behind lever and E61/dual boiler/PID machines. There are those who like mechanical simplicity and those who like the tweakability of digital electronics. There are some parallels in other analogue v digital discusssions, but this one seems to me rather different. In cinema, for instance, film is basically dead as there is little a 4K digital camera can't do better (OK, that is arguable but there are no longer any film-based movie cameras being made and Kodak have gone bust). Coffee making is different as it is always, to a large extent, going to be a mechanical process. And lever machines seem to be having a resurgence because (again arguably) do it better.


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I bought an HG One and can really say it is worth pushing the boat out for.


+1

........


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

CoffeeDoc said:


> I am about to take the plunge and get a proper espresso machine, I am due to do the barista day at Bella Barista in March and will look at a selection of machines then, I was initially thinking of a twin boiler machine, Alex or Rocket, with a Della Corte the outsider, but then I found more about levers and am extremely tempted by the Londinium 1. The other great conumdrum is which grinder? My thought is a Mazzer Mini E. I don't think that I can justify the cost and hassle of ordering an HG one, but perhaps someone can persuade me!
> 
> Paul


A Londinium lever machine that is plumbed in, is near enough silent, only the occasional short burst of boiler noise tells one that it is on. For me, that is a wonderful thing in itself.

When one adds the simplicity of this analogue machine...

The superb quality build and materials quality...

Just walk up to it, and use it... no "surfing", "flushing" (warming or cooling), no backflushing...

There is really not much more to be said...

Well I like it anyway!


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

I've owned a spring lever machine, and now an E61, the spring lever (Ponte Vecchio) was an awkward bugger to heat up. You'd have to bleed the boiler of false air (could have been rectified with a vacuum breaker I guess) and then once the boiler was up to correct pressure, the group needed a good flush through, then left to sit for 15 minutes for the thermosyphon to start up, otherwise the group would be stone cold! E61, switch on and come back in 20 minutes and it's all good to go.

In terms of shots, lever was certainly more forgiving, shots were short and syrupy. I feel though I've found more of a range of flavours in drinks with my E61, I struggled to learn a specific technique for the spring lever, just what tasted good went. With the E61 there's always a guide of what's going to work or be close as possible to the last coffee really. I did enjoy the hands on aspect of lever, but that's still sort of there with a traditional E61, I wouldn't like a push button on/off switch for the pump on my home machine!


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