# Following ratios makes tiny drinks?



## tuk (Nov 24, 2018)

From what I understand, 10g of ground coffee will produce 30ml or 1 shot of espresso.

And for eg, to make a latte it's a 1/2 ratio of espresso/milk which will give a final drink size of 90ml...which seems tiny to me?

I don't know what size cups are used by cafes, but they must be around 250-300ml.

So how are cafes maintaining ratios and recipes(latte, cappuccino etc) and still producing large drinks?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

tuk said:


> From what I understand, 10g of ground coffee will produce 30ml or 1 shot of espresso.
> 
> And for eg, to make a latte it's a 1/2 ratio of espresso/milk which will give a final drink size of 90ml...which seems tiny to me?
> 
> ...


The good ones will be using a double shot...the others you shouldn't buy drinks at.


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> The good ones will be using a double shot...the others you shouldn't buy drinks at.


We have a large Costa in the canteen and a smaller one on each floor at work. The large one has some decent machinery, operated by someone that clearly doesn't give two monkeys about what he's serving, and that splits every double shot into two drinks. So you end up paying for half a pint of over frothed milk with a single shot, luckily for the huge number of employees that buy multiple coffees a day, it's all heavily subsidised.

The smaller Costa's on the other 3 floors are all large bean to cup machine, operated by someone who REALLY doesn't give a monkeys.

I once felt obliged to have a flat white during a lunch meeting, never again...


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## Robbo (Feb 17, 2016)

Ive no idea where those ratios came from.

I dont think any cafe ive been to sticks to 1/2 ratio for a latte, even the good ones. What call a flat white is around a 1/3 ratio as it fills a 120ml cup. A latte would fill a 200ml cup. Both made with a double shot.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Ratios are a curious thing. 10g doesn't figure in commercial sizes of filter basket. Roughly speaking they go 6 or 7g singles and 12 or 14g doubles each for light and then for standard.

2 basic shot sizes crop up 25ml and 30ml for a single x2 for doubles. In 25sec tends to be associated with one and 30 secs the other. Going on the baskets I have used the standard commercial baskets wont hold that much more than their stated capacity but that can depend on the bean that is being used. That's based on a Fracino machine but I doubt if others vary much. For instance I couldn't get 9g of beans in the 7g basket, 8 was too much too but that was with a light bean that tends to take up more space than many others so needs less weight in.

Those numbers come up with ratios that can be a long way off 2, the one that is often mentioned.

When I drink out I usually have a large americano as milk based is too weak and I don't like them much anyway. In many cafe's a large one is smaller than the 320ml ones I make at home. I'd say costabucks standards are about the same size. They appear to use single shots and little coffee from watching them work. Americano can be pretty tasty providing very little milk is added, most people drinking there drown them. Seems this is what the buying public drink







the whole idea of milk based drinks was to suite people who don't like the taste of coffee especially flat whites. Capo's well sprinkle some chocolate etc on top - same end. Or even add a flavour.

I've no idea where a ratio for latte or any other milk based drink comes from. Sounds like web garbage. Just use a shot and quantity of coffee that suites the size of drink you want. Even the bean that is used will have an effect on how strong the taste is. The actual taste will vary according to the beans that are being used as well. I get the impression that people who are into various milk based drinks generally use basket sizes that are larger than the usual commercial ones. If they used commercial beans they might find they needed less coffee. Robusta may have something to do with that but arabica varies as well.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Ratios are a curious thing. 10g doesn't figure in commercial sizes of filter basket. Roughly speaking they go 6 or 7g singles and 12 or 14g doubles each for light and then for standard.
> 
> John
> 
> -


If the OP is making coffee in a commercial setting they have likely been trained to make coffee the way their employer requires it.

You own 3 machines, 2 of which don't come with anything like the basket sizes you mention. 16-20g is a more typical range for doubles. If you have a 10g single basket, then 10g figures (could anywhere be 7-11g).


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> If the OP is making coffee in a commercial setting they have likely been trained to make coffee the way their employer requires it.
> 
> You own 3 machines, 2 of which don't come with anything like the basket sizes you mention. 16-20g is a more typical range for doubles. If you have a 10g single basket, then 10g figures (could anywhere be 7-11g).


True. Personally I think Sage supply for milk based drinkers who like stronger coffee and forget people like me. I wonder how many actually produce 2 shots at the same time from these larger doubles other than maybe espresso ? Personally I made some use of a 14g basket on the BE and now make a lot of use of one on the DB along with some use of another that holds 10, it's not the Sage single as it wont.

At some point I might switch to some other make of 58mm filter basket but expect basket capacities to be similar to Fracino when used on their own make of machine. The sizes I mentioned are generally available. I suspect they are based on the capacity of the ancient E61 machine's baskets when fitted in one of those. Fracino tried to persuade me not to buy a full set of baskets especially the light single. It seems that in their terms they only ever sell 7's and 14's and maybe a few 12's. I bought the lot due to an interest in using less and grinding finer. I don't think it's possible to use the 6 at 6 but it hasn't been out of the cupboard much.

I recently bought some Lavazza commercial beans - intended for use in an espresso machine. Instructions on the bag usual ratios based on 7 and 14g. It gives a pleasant milder end drink, suites my wife even though it isn't that weak which is unusual. I'd probably prefer the Sage double for that and keep meaning to get it out. It's an arabica blend, one of the only 2 they make. Probably not suitable for anything other than rather small milk based drinks.

The drinks themselves are interesting

Capo - well most know what those are but again shot / quantity to suite the drinker and size of drink and that will vary from shop to shop and probably home to home.

Latte - milkier capo - what that can really mean is a weaker capo - could be done by adding more milk or changing the shot in some way.

Flat white - capo but no froth.

There was fortunately briefly a shop around the corner from me that sold on the basis of shot size. Listed 4 with increasing prices - from what I could see they always used the same quantity of grinds so it went super lungo very quickly. Maybe they had read something about ratios similar to what the OP has seen. I went for the dearest - very distinct water aftertaste. Even worse than costabucks kiosks.

John

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## tuk (Nov 24, 2018)

Just to clarify, I'm a complete newbie and my first coffee machine( Sage DT ) arrived only yesterday. So I'm just trying to establish a starting off reference point with the ratios. But, going on the info below the finished drink sizes seem much smaller than what I would expect in a cafe so was just wondering what I was missing...

The Sage manual states:

"8-10g (1 CUP)

15-18g (2 CUP)"

"Extraction time: 25-35 SEC"

"For optimal flavour when using a 1 CUP filter, you should extract approx. 30ml. When using a 2 CUP filter, you should extract approx. 60ml."

As for coffee/milk ratios:

https://www.popsci.com/sites/popsci.com/files/styles/655_1x_/public/import/2013/images/2013/01/espressoguide.jpg?itok=B8rxkG5N

https://gearpatrol.com/2013/03/01/espresso-the-complete-guide/


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

I suppose you haven't read the sage thread then about the DTP??


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

To keep it simple for you, weigh your pf empty, put some coffee in. Weigh it again. You have to understand that there has to be headroom between the top of the tamped coffee and the shower screen to allow the water to circulate. The standard Sage double ought to let you put 18 gm in. Weigh again to make sure. A 2:1 ratio would be 18 in 36 out. try it.....then you can put more coffee in, take some out, tamp harder, grind finer/coarser....you have to play around and there is no short cut. Eventually your taste buds will tell you where you are at


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tuk said:


> Just to clarify, I'm a complete newbie and my first coffee machine( Sage DT ) arrived only yesterday. So I'm just trying to establish a starting off reference point with the ratios. But, going on the info below the finish drink sizes seem much smaller than what I would expect in a cafe so was just wondering what I was missing...


Maybe work backwards, what drink do you want to make?

What size is the cup you want to put it in? (Weigh the cup on scales, tare the scales, fill the cup with cold tap water, how much does the water weigh?)

The Sage brew ratios are around 1:3 coffee dose to espresso out, that's fairly normal.


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## tuk (Nov 24, 2018)

I like a cafe con leche or a cappuccino and a 250ml cup is about the minimum before it seems too small.

When you say a "The Sage brew ratios are around 1:3" does that mean 10g of ground coffee to 30g of espresso liquid out?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tuk said:


> I like a cafe con leche or a cappuccino and a 250ml cup is about the minimum before it seems too small.
> 
> When you say a "The Sage brew ratios are around 1:3" does that mean 10g of ground coffee to 30g of espresso liquid out?


Then I'd use 18g in the double basket.

Yes, that's right regarding brew ratio.


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## tuk (Nov 24, 2018)

Thanks for all the replies, I will go and have a play now


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

Worth reading through a couple of times and bookmarking for future reference

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcoffeeforums%2Eco%2Euk%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D22879&share_tid=22879&share_fid=6813&share_type=t


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## OTT (Jan 29, 2019)

After years of experimenting with different espresso machines, grinders, grind size, coffee beans, etc, the single thing that vastly improved my coffees was making the small switch down in size from a flat white size to a cortado. I was always struggling to get a conistently strong coffee when I was making flat whites. Sometimes it would work, but it was always hit-and-miss. I suspect that most home machines just aren't powerful enough to match the intensity of flavour you can get in a really good cafe. By all means, if you like large milky drinks, just go to Starbucks, but for quality, I would suggest that smaller is better.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

I suspect that most home machines just aren't powerful enough to match the intensity of flavour you can get in a really good cafe.

What would class as most % wise.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

OTT said:


> After years of experimenting with different espresso machines, grinders, grind size, coffee beans, etc, the single thing that vastly improved my coffees was making the small switch down in size from a flat white size to a cortado. I was always struggling to get a conistently strong coffee when I was making flat whites. Sometimes it would work, but it was always hit-and-miss. I suspect that most home machines just aren't powerful enough to match the intensity of flavour you can get in a really good cafe. By all means, if you like large milky drinks, just go to Starbucks, but for quality, I would suggest that smaller is better.


I'm doing my best to understand . . . What's this 'powerful enough' stuff all about?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Jony said:


> I suspect that most home machines just aren't powerful enough to match the intensity of flavour you can get in a really good cafe.
> 
> What would class as most % wise.


Politely disagree, I would say it's more slanted more the the grinder then the water.

Machine is a big boiler, that needs to be temp stable. The Sage's are rock solid temp stable for example.

Sorry Johnny quoted incorrectly at you there


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

OTT said:


> After years of experimenting with different espresso machines, grinders, grind size, coffee beans, etc, the single thing that vastly improved my coffees was making the small switch down in size from a flat white size to a cortado. I was always struggling to get a conistently strong coffee when I was making flat whites. Sometimes it would work, but it was always hit-and-miss. I suspect that most home machines just aren't powerful enough to match the intensity of flavour you can get in a really good cafe. By all means, if you like large milky drinks, just go to Starbucks, but for quality, I would suggest that smaller is better.


You need 9 bars ( subjective had to pick a number ) and temp stability. Power , whatever that is , has nothin to do with it.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> You need 9 bars ( subjective had to pick a number ) and temp stability. Power , whatever that is , has nothin to do with it.


9 bars? Oh my!!!


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

OH dear, how the other half live haha


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MildredM said:


> 9 bars? Oh my!!!


Alright more than 6









Cafe's actively pressure profiling = very few


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## RazorliteX (Mar 2, 2014)

I always did wonder about that, did they sort of add the water at the end at the end of the extraction or just extract a shed load of water through the portafilter resulting in quite the bitter drink.

I soon realised that some of the bigger chains couldn't give two hoots and were quite happy to put 100ml through a 10g basket whereas some of the others just drown the coffee in 400ml of milk. In terms of the latter, not too bad if you don't mind too much milk.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

RazorliteX said:


> I always did wonder about that, did they sort of add the water at the end at the end of the extraction or just extract a shed load of water through the portafilter resulting in quite the bitter drink.
> 
> I soon realised that some of the bigger chains couldn't give two hoots and were quite happy to put 100ml through a 10g basket whereas some of the others just drown the coffee in 400ml of milk. In terms of the latter, not too bad if you don't mind too much milk.


Hi, what do you mean add water at end of extraction ? "after the shot has stopped". If so that's just dilution, will change strength but not the extraction


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## RazorliteX (Mar 2, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Hi, what do you mean add water at end of extraction ? "after the shot has stopped". If so that's just dilution, will change strength but not the extraction


Hello hello. That is exactly what I meant, did they add water (dilute) or just prolong extraction.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

RazorliteX said:


> Hello hello. That is exactly what I meant, did they add water (dilute) or just prolong extraction.


Cheers - ok diluting won't make it more bitter, just weaken it .

Apologies if I am teaching you to suck eggs


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Alright more than 6
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you raising the bar now!!


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## RazorliteX (Mar 2, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Cheers - ok diluting won't make it more bitter, just weaken it .
> 
> Apologies if I am teaching you to suck eggs


No worries, no I meant I often wondered what coffee shops did when I received a whopping 500ml drink from presumably a 20-30ml extraction. Turns out they just rinse the puck - I'd rather have dilution than over extraction. Other coffee shops will dilute with milk instead - not too bad. However, flat white for the win as that is a smaller cup of beverage anyway.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

RazorliteX said:


> No worries, no I meant I often wondered what coffee shops did when I received a whopping 500ml drink from presumably a 20-30ml extraction. Turns out they just rinse the puck - I'd rather have dilution than over extraction. Other coffee shops will dilute with milk instead - not too bad. However, flat white for the win as that is a smaller cup of beverage anyway.


Most cafe's should have volumetric machines, which would give decent ballpark , if set up right and grind right .

Who serves half a litre drinks?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

MildredM said:


> Are you raising the bar now!!


More like lowering the bar....by 3! 

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Most cafe's should have volumetric machines, which would give decent ballpark , if set up right and grind right .
> 
> Who serves half a litre drinks?


Starbucks. The litteral translation of venti (their largest size) is 20 because it's 20 fl oz.

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> Starbucks. The litteral translation of venti (their largest size) is 20 because it's 20 fl oz.
> 
> Laissez les bons temps rouler


That's all milk ..


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> That's all milk ..


Not if you order a black americano. I doubt the whole pint goes through the puck though.

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> Not if you order a black americano. I doubt the whole pint goes through the puck though.
> 
> Laissez les bons temps rouler


You get what you deserve if you order a half litre anything ........


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Who serves half a litre drinks?


Heh


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## RazorliteX (Mar 2, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Most cafe's should have volumetric machines, which would give decent ballpark , if set up right and grind right .
> 
> Who serves half a litre drinks?


I'm talking about the bigger coffee chains - never quite understood how they could serve big ass americanos unless they were adding water to the extraction. Hope that makes sense, wasn't talking about anywhere decent.









To give it context, I'm talking about when I first started drinking coffee other than instant around 10-15 years ago. I kid you not.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

RazorliteX said:


> I'm talking about the bigger coffee chains - never quite understood how they could serve big ass americanos unless they were adding water to the extraction. Hope that makes sense, wasn't talking about anywhere decent.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


An americano is just an espresso with hot water added to create a long drink.

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## spoxehub (Oct 24, 2014)

ashcroc said:


> An americano is just an espresso with hot water added to create a long drink.
> 
> Laissez les bons temps rouler


Chambourcey nouvelle, Rodney.


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## Diggy87 (Sep 20, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> An americano is just an espresso with hot water added to create a long drink.
> 
> Laissez les bons temps rouler


I suspect hat the OP means, instead of adding hot water to the espresso, but instead of stopping the shot for the espresso are they pulling a super long shot creating a very long and bitter espresso that they are calling an Americano


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

Thinking about it, my parents Miele cm6200 has an Espresso button and a 'Coffee' button which is amusing in itself. The espresso produces just that, and the coffee button (which is their go to option) keeps pushing more and more water through the puck until they reach around 300ml I think (it's customisable).

I thought this would end up with a bitter coffee due to massive over extraction, but instead it just diluted it after a certain point. Essentially creating a rather dull tasting americano, which isn't overly bitter.


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## jen1979 (Feb 20, 2012)

I am now consistently producing great shots so trying not to overthink ratios etc..... but in the back of my mind I am also a little confused.

So generally I am using 18grams in for a double which then yields 2 shots, each at 36ml. So therefore is this a 1:4 ratio as the simple maths suggests? The reason I am unsure is that the amount of espresso I produce (2x36g) tastes great and seems visually about the right amount (it looks about the same as a double shot I see in a decent coffee shop. Yet I'm under the impression most common is 1:2. In my recipe at 18grams in, it feels like 36ml would be a tiny double espresso and if I were to pull a single at 9gram in, 18 out is crazy small.


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## jen1979 (Feb 20, 2012)

I submitted the previous post twice and cannot for the life of me see how to delete. So editing instead.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jen1979 said:


> I am now consistently producing great shots so trying not to overthink ratios etc..... but in the back of my mind I am also a little confused.
> 
> So generally I am using 18grams in for a double which then yields 2 shots, each at 36ml. So therefore is this a 1:4 ratio as the simple maths suggests? The reason I am unsure is that the amount of espresso I produce (2x36g) tastes great and seems visually about the right amount (it looks about the same as a double shot I see in a decent coffee shop. Yet I'm under the impression most common is 1:2. In my recipe at 18grams in, it feels like 36ml would be a tiny double espresso and if I were to pull a single at 9gram in, 18 out is crazy small.


OK, the first thing to focus on is the size of the drink (liquid) is irrelevant to the amount of dissolved coffee in the drink, when it comes to achieving a balanced taste. Some people prefer a very concentrated shot, others can stand it less concentrated.

Let's say, just for illustration, you extract 18.5% of your dose (usually enough, as an average, to get a balanced espresso). 18x 0.185 = 3.33g of coffee dissolved.

This is the same for an 18.5% extraction whether your drink is 1:2, 1:4 or 1:14 (like a filter coffee of 250ml).

The difference is just in the strength/concentration of the drink produced, and the longer the brew ratio, the more water holds that 3.33g of coffee, the more diluted it is. Some people have problems getting a balanced (not sour) extraction at shorter ratios like 1:2, sometimes a little more water pushed through the puck can balance the shot. But, equally, if you are used to 18:36g and can keep it balanced, enjoy.

If you like an 18g dose into 72g of coffee & it is strong enough for you to enjoy & not drowned out by milk, carry on. It's not wrong.


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## jen1979 (Feb 20, 2012)

That makes sense MWJB, thanks. Just out of curiosity then, what sort of size double shot are most guys on here pulling? Or in commercial?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jen1979 said:


> That makes sense MWJB, thanks. Just out of curiosity then, what sort of size double shot are most guys on here pulling? Or in commercial?


Some like 1:1.6, some 1:2, some 1:3. Personally, my doubles might be 1:3 to 1:4.

I wouldn't emulate someone else's ratio without understanding why they use it. E.g. someone with a really good prep & soluble coffee might extract OK at 1:1.6, others might under-extract & have sour coffee, others still might like dark roasts & still get a drink they like despite it being low on extraction...but then change coffee & wheels may come off?

It might come down to how fine your grinder will go before the shots taste silty/powdery/bitter.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Some like 1:1.6, some 1:2, some 1:3. Personally, my doubles might be 1:3 to 1:4.
> 
> I wouldn't emulate someone else's ratio without understanding why they use it. E.g. someone with a really good prep & soluble coffee might extract OK at 1:1.6, others might under-extract & have sour coffee, others still might like dark roasts & still get a drink they like despite it being low on extraction...but then change coffee & wheels may come off?
> 
> It might come down to how fine your grinder will go before the shots taste silty/powdery/bitter.


Best piece of succinct advise ive seen in a long time.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

jen1979 said:


> I am now consistently producing great shots so trying not to overthink ratios etc..... but in the back of my mind I am also a little confused.
> 
> So generally I am using 18grams in for a double which then yields 2 shots, each at 36ml. So therefore is this a 1:4 ratio as the simple maths suggests? The reason I am unsure is that the amount of espresso I produce (2x36g) tastes great and seems visually about the right amount (it looks about the same as a double shot I see in a decent coffee shop. Yet I'm under the impression most common is 1:2. In my recipe at 18grams in, it feels like 36ml would be a tiny double espresso and if I were to pull a single at 9gram in, 18 out is crazy small.


You could if you wish use the single basket. It will generally hold 10g of grinds but some need a bit of a reduction, 9 should be ok and then tune for your 36ml out. This may well give a different taste as the grind will need to be finer than 18g in the larger basket. If you then wanted to change the taste you would either need to change time or grind for a different ratio. With a stepped grinder it might have to be time to achieve some specific ratio or even with the use of a grinder without steps due to adjustment difficulties. Some people always weigh out even on machines with buttons - if the same always came out they wouldn't need to weigh out.

You have hit on the right thing *TASTE *. Really ratios come in when a different bean is being used and the ideal is an unkown. It may need changing. An enjoyable drink may only be produced at some ratio that is wildly different to what the other bean needed. From my own experience that could be a truncated shot cut off at 20sec for my wife from my usual brew which is high 30's out from 13.5 in 30sec or in just ratio terms anything from 1 to 2 up to in excess of 1 to 4. Some beans may need significantly more or less grinds to achieve an acceptable level of taste.

Time can be changed as well. Personally I stick to 30sec. Some use 40. I try it now and again but hasn't suited me so far.







20 sec suites my wife. I did try other numbers and similar on other beans as well.








One thing I haven't really tried is ratios of under 1 to 2. For the sake of a some beans I should especially if it's a new bean that I am not keen on. Maybe ones I like as well.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jen1979 said:


> That makes sense MWJB, thanks. Just out of curiosity then, what sort of size double shot are most guys on here pulling? Or in commercial?


Mwjb s advice above is sound.

Example I'm pulling a braziilian coffee at 18 to 32 at mo.

A Kenyan at 18 to 45 .

A Rwandan last week at closer to 50g out

Ratios are fine but I sense alot of people use them as hitting some numbers normally 1:2 in 30 seconds as confirmation of a good shot , when the best you can do is taste , adjust , again again . Build up a pallette .

Use the ratio as a measure not a qualification .


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## enrm6 (Jun 7, 2018)

MWJB said:


> OK, the first thing to focus on is the size of the drink (liquid) is irrelevant to the amount of dissolved coffee in the drink, when it comes to achieving a balanced taste. Some people prefer a very concentrated shot, others can stand it less concentrated.
> 
> Let's say, just for illustration, you extract 18.5% of your dose (usually enough, as an average, to get a balanced espresso). 18x 0.185 = 3.33g of coffee dissolved.
> 
> ...


MWJB can you unpack this a bit more for me please. I get the ultimate point that ratio is dependent and personal and there's no target value, it'll be what it'll be.

The bit that hurts my brain is the extraction percentage. It feels like you are saying that variable isn't related to ratio, and I'm struggling with that.


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

This will be a good test of my understanding.

So the ratio of coffee to extracted espresso is a starting point - and what you remember to make the same drink next time. Typically 2g of drink for every 1g of coffee as a starting point (36g drink from 18g coffee for a double shot)

The extraction % is how much actual coffee is in that extracted drink, some beans/grinds will be more soluable than others, so all other things being even a 36g extraction of bean 1 will not have the same amount of coffee as 36g of bean 2

So you need to try an extraction, then you can vary the grind, the tamping pressure and the volumes (in and out) to change the extracted drink. Vary one at a time if you can so you know what effect it had. Once you find a drink you like, you can record the numbers (grind, coffee in, coffee out) so you can repeat it.

I think the last sentence is what matters - use the numbers not as the rules but as a way to remember how you made the really good drink.

Since my grinder is not easily adjusted, and my machine has no fancy options, I vary the amount of coffee in/out and accept that some beans just don't work as well as others. But I also drink lattes so I get away with more....


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The ratio sets the strength not the flavour balance. 1g of coffee to 2g of drink makes a shot that is 9-10% coffee, 90% water, *if* it is extracted well. If a lot of your shots at 1:2 are sour, depite grind changes, try 1:2.5 or 1:3.

If your shots are realistic & your roasts are reasonably similar (e.g. not swinging from light filter roasted El Salvador to dried out, very dark supermarket beans) the solubility of beans isn't a big issue. You might still want to pull brighter coffees a bit longer in ratio to tame acidity. If you, your prep & your roasts are consistent, the solubility won't vary by any more than it will for any other brew method.

You need to try a ratio, if you are measuring extraction then great, but you need to build a bigger picture of a realistic range of extractions at that ratio. But essentially, yes, logging dose, brew ratio & how much you liked the drink will help you with repeatability (grind setting may still vary some).

Rules are preset by the universe & the intrinsic properties of matter, we can't make them, we can't bend them. We set parameters & grind setting, then by the time you press brew button, aiming for a given ratio, what is destined to happen based on those parameters happens. It's odd that suggestions given to help people make tasty coffee are sometimes described as "rules". If there is such a thing as coffee making rule it is make drinks you like & can repeat & screw everyone else 

I'd be more constant with dose & mainly vary the weight out, but, sure, that's one way to do it.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It's not really a good idea to use tamping as a variable. Much better to keep in constant. I found the easiest way to do that was to strain a little. In theory lighter tamping means that the grind can be finer but if a light tamp is set at what seems to be a sensible level, 10kg there isn't really going to be much in it. I recollect some one who switched from a DTP to another more conventional machine mentioning that it seemed to prefer lighter tamping than they used on the DTP. That was down to the machine change and any time anything major is changed ratios etc are also likely to need changing.

Some one mentioned X% extraction. Yet another way of brewing coffee. A refactometer is used and ratio and maybe time is used to achieve some specific physical extraction level. From comments usually ratio. Ok but this will result in a certain taste and that's it no scope for varying it without possibly changing the extraction level. Coffee seems to have it's own scale for refractive index just like some other things such as sugar solutions which use brix. Pity really as refractive index is refractive index how ever it's measured so conversion between "units" is possible but information is scarce as far as coffee is concerned = a rather expensive piece of equipment to measure it. They could have used brix or direct refractive indexes.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Some one mentioned X% extraction. Yet another way of brewing coffee. A refactometer is used and ratio and maybe time is used to achieve some specific physical extraction level. From comments usually ratio. Ok but this will result in a certain taste and that's it no scope for varying it without possibly changing the extraction level. Coffee seems to have it's own scale for refractive index just like some other things such as sugar solutions which use brix. Pity really as refractive index is refractive index how ever it's measured so conversion between "units" is possible but information is scarce as far as coffee is concerned = a rather expensive piece of equipment to measure it. They could have used brix or direct refractive indexes.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Jibber jabber.

I mentioned it, my name is Mark, not "someone".

It's not a different way of brewing, the reading is taken after brewing, the brewing is over & done before you get it. You do need to know dose weight & beverage weight to get a meaningful result.

The useful unit for coffee concentration is %TDS. This allows you to back calculate extraction yield, refractive index does not. Sure, %TDS is correlated to refractive index by comparisons to dehydration (the de facto standard for coffee extraction yield measurement for over 60years now). Refractometers don't just read in refractive index, there are scales for many liquids, including different ones for cat wee & dog wee.

Extraction yield is a guide to brew efficiency, not taste. Brew efficiency has a correlation to flavour balance (sour under-extraction, drying over-extraction), but it is objective, not subjective. The same coffee at different extractions will taste different, there is obviously scope for varying taste (like changing your beans or water), you could even have a different taste at the same extraction due to a fault/parameter beyond what the refractometer measures. 5 different coffees will all taste different at the same extraction, they might even taste best, or only be able to achieve different extractions to each other.

Look at a coffee refractometer as a scale that weighs the coffee dissolved in your cup. It tells you what it tells you. It can't tell you what your coffee tastes like, in the same way weighing your dose, or your drink doesn't tell you what it tastes like.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

[quote=enrm6;671607

The bit that hurts my brain is the extraction percentage. It feels like you are saying that variable isn't related to ratio, and I'm struggling with that.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

enrm6 said:


> MWJB can you unpack this a bit more for me please. I get the ultimate point that ratio is dependent and personal and there's no target value, it'll be what it'll be.
> 
> The bit that hurts my brain is the extraction percentage. It feels like you are saying that variable isn't related to ratio, and I'm struggling with that.


Extraction yield (%EY) isn't directly related to ratio, assuming a nominal extraction is possible. It can be a function of the ratio for espresso, if the ratio is very short & your grinder & prep do not extract enough from the grinds at 1:1.5 or 1:2 for example. The longer the ratio, the more likely it is you will have the ability to reach a normal range of extraction (not just under-extracted shots).

Grind size along with brew method facilitates extraction. E.g. for the filter coffee, pouring 290g of water over 18g of grounds at an average of 0.8mm size could hit that 18.5% 3.33g of coffee in the cup. But the grind size might need to be half that average size (0.4mm) to make an espresso shot of 54g with 18g of the same beans (0.8mm average grinds in an espresso machine won't make what most folk think of as espresso).

You select the ratio to make drinks of a strength you enjoy. If every drink you make is a different ratio with the same beans, you're going to get a wide range of extractions, some will be on the sour side.


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## enrm6 (Jun 7, 2018)

MWJB said:


> Extraction yield (%EY) isn't directly related to ratio, assuming a nominal extraction is possible. It can be a function of the ratio for espresso, if the ratio is very short & your grinder & prep do not extract enough from the grinds at 1:1.5 or 1:2 for example. The longer the ratio, the more likely it is you will have the ability to reach a normal range of extraction (not just under-extracted shots).
> 
> Grind size along with brew method facilitates extraction. E.g. for the filter coffee, pouring 290g of water over 18g of grounds at an average of 0.8mm size could hit that 18.5% 3.33g of coffee in the cup. But the grind size might need to be half that average size (0.4mm) to make an espresso shot of 54g with 18g of the same beans (0.8mm average grinds in an espresso machine won't make what most folk think of as espresso).
> 
> You select the ratio to make drinks of a strength you enjoy. If every drink you make is a different ratio with the same beans, you're going to get a wide range of extractions, some will be on the sour side.


Thanks for the further explanation but even though you start with 'extraction is not directly related to ratio', you effectively then go on to say it is. I perhaps made the incorrect assumption were were talking espresso not other methods. I can understand that extraction is a function of ratio for espresso, that makes sense, it's just it seemed the point was being made that it isn't.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

enrm6 said:


> Thanks for the further explanation but even though you start with 'extraction is not directly related to ratio', you effectively then go on to say it is. I perhaps made the incorrect assumption were were talking espresso not other methods. I can understand that extraction is a function of ratio for espresso, that makes sense, it's just it seemed the point was being made that it isn't.


Extraction is only an issue with brew ratio if you are trying to make very short strong drinks, which are borderline possible with your grinder & prep. In other words you hit physical wall that stops you being able to brew normally.

At the other extreme, if you want to brew at 1:25 you're going to get a lot of weak coffee & it's more likely you'll over-extract cups.

So, yes, at extremes, certain extraction malfunctions are reliant on brew ratio. But why make life hard for yourself? Why not brew at more feasible parameters and have the luxury of being able to tweak strength/extraction & pull it off? If you do that, you should be able to get decent extractions across a wide range of coffees & roasts.

I don't see the attraction in setting out to brew borderline/peculiar cups. If you can brew short and are happy with the taste, then you don't have an issue.


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