# Will I notice much difference? MaraX / BZ10



## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

Hey all,

I currently have the Sage Barista Express and get good coffee from it, especially since I got the Niche grinder. Now I just keep wondering if a machine upgrade to a MaraX (also just seen the Bezzer BZ10 on Black Cat Coffee) will improve it even further.

Will I notice much of a difference with a MaraX than my BE, or would there not be much point now I have upgraded the BE's weak spot (grinder)?

I have got the MaraX in my basket on BB (along with the Lelit distribution tool) ready to checkout 😂

Anyone else gone from a BE to any of these machines? Are the MaraX and BZ10 similar?

Cheers!


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Your journey sounds like the one I'll be taking soon so I"ll watch this discussion . I too have a BE, looking at Marax, bz10 and dual boilers minima and Lelit but still can't make my mind up. Profitec 600 looks a nicely put together machine also. My niche hasn't arrived yet so I'm holding out until it does. But I doubt the BE will satisfy my needs by the time it does and an upgrade is on the cards this side of Xmas 

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

skylark said:


> Your journey sounds like the one I'll be taking soon so I"ll watch this discussion
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I have a 3D printed connector for the BE portafilter to fit the niche cup. I told myself I'd at least wait for that first to see if it improves the user experience.

Thats coming from the US and according to Etsy is still in the states even after 2-3 weeks, so not sure I'll last ????


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

You will notice a difference in the quality of the machine that is for sure! Looked after, both the Mara and the B1Z10 will last indefinitely.

Having not extensively used a Sage machine it is tough for me to draw comparisons but I cannot imagine the steam performance is anywhere near a true boiler machine and I have my doubts about the temperature stability with thermoblocks, I cannot quite get my head around how they work accurately with changing flow rates with such small water volumes. This could be a gap in my knowledge of course.

Don't forget we offer forum members a discount on machines.

PM me if you would like a code and have any specific questions.

Enjoy the search!


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> You will notice a difference in the quality of the machine that is for sure! Looked after, both the Mara and the B1Z10 will last indefinitely.
> 
> Having not extensively used a Sage machine it is tough for me to draw comparisons but I cannot imagine the steam performance is anywhere near a true boiler machine and I have *my doubts about the temperature stability with thermoblocks, I cannot quite get my head around how they work accurately with changing flow rates with such small water volumes. This could be a gap in my knowledge of course.*
> 
> ...


 I agree with this. I found the temp stability seemed to vary based on the Puck resistance and resulting flow rate.

Basically if you got the grind wrong and flow was too high the temp would drop and that would compound the terrible shot.

to the OP you will get a massive boost in steam power and generally your shots will taste better, more clarity and stronger fruity flavours. Imho based on my experiences


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## mcwill (Aug 9, 2020)

I'm in a similar position, Niche arrived last week and now sitting alongside the BE.

Looked at a lot of machines to upgrade to, but what is currently holding me back is the warm up time compared to the Sage. The Sage can be ready within 10 seconds of turning on, and that is the workflow that my better half is used to. If I explain I would like to spend a four figure sum to get a better machine, BUT it would need to be switched on 20-30 minutes before making the coffee then I'm going to get one of those looks.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

mcwill said:


> I'm in a similar position, Niche arrived last week and now sitting alongside the BE.
> 
> Looked at a lot of machines to upgrade to, but what is currently holding me back is the warm up time compared to the Sage. The Sage can be ready within 10 seconds of turning on, and that is the workflow that my better half is used to. If I explain I would like to spend a four figure sum to get a better machine, BUT it would need to be switched on 20-30 minutes before making the coffee then I'm going to get one of those looks.


 Not quite 10 seconds but the Bezzera BZ10 we offer has an electronically heated brew group and is one of the fastest traditional boiler machines on the market. It is ready in 10-15 minutes.


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## General-S-1 (Jul 27, 2015)

@Griffo so the niche is a big upgrade over be grinder? How much of a difference?

Im thinking of making same upgrade and would appreciate any feedback.


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Griffo said:


> I have a 3D printed connector for the BE portafilter to fit the niche cup. I told myself I'd at least wait for that first to see if it improves the user experience.
> 
> Thats coming from the US and according to Etsy is still in the states even after 2-3 weeks, so not sure I'll last 😂


 You sure you're not my alter ego 😆. I too have the exact same part, an Etsy order, on the way. It's a strange coincidence but this must be a familiar journey for all BE owners. Good to know the niche us doing its job 😏


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## Aamz23 (Aug 20, 2018)

Griffo said:


> I have a 3D printed connector for the BE portafilter to fit the niche cup. I told myself I'd at least wait for that first to see if it improves the user experience.
> 
> Thats coming from the US and according to Etsy is still in the states even after 2-3 weeks, so not sure I'll last 😂


 Mine took 6 weeks to arrive. Same as you guys have the BE and Niche and had to deal with the mess for 6 weeks


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

General-S-1 said:


> @Griffo so the niche is a big upgrade over be grinder? How much of a difference?
> 
> Im thinking of making same upgrade and would appreciate any feedback.


 It's awesome - even the shots I screw up by my own error actually taste good and are drinkable. No longer do I have to pull 3 shots to get a good one, even when using the same settings that I used a few hours before to get a good shot!

I went back on Bella Barista as I got called away for something work related and when I came back the MaraX had all gone. One then came up as ex-display and even that went super quick!

I guess I'll wait until I'm back from Cornwall now and do more research in the meantime.


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

Is there anything else I should be considering up to about £1500? There's just so many, and they all look similar!

ECM Mechanika V Slim, Profitec Pro range etc etc

Pretty much discounted the Rocket Appartamento as even though I love the look, I remember reading a post from @DavecUK about how it's all old tech compared to things like the MaraX.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

What would you say your needs are and what do you drink most often?

For example do you -



favour light roasts or darker roast,


only drink espresso,


always milk based drinks,


a combination,


would you like the ability to control temperature,


how important to you is build quality,


how important is cosmetic appearance,


The Rocket machines are more traditional in design compared to the Mara X however some people favour a tried and tested design and are happy to accept that there might be some trade off in terms of temperature stability for example. It all boils down to what you feel suits your personal needs best. The Mara X is the current forum darling but I do not think there is such things as one fits all when it comes to this sort of decision.


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> What would you say your needs are and what do you drink most often?
> 
> For example do you -
> 
> ...


 The Magica on your site looks amazing too!



I'd say regarding roasts - medium to dark


Drinks - pretty much always milk based, but a combination of both


Controlling temperature would be cool I guess - I've never played around with that


Build quality and cosmetic appearance is important. It needs to be built well and look good.


As I've never used a machine that isn't a Barista Express, I keep reading about having to do "flushes" on some machines and not others. Is this something difficult to get your head around?


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Griffo said:


> The Magica on your site looks amazing too!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I may be telling you things you already know here -

A Hx machine is a large boiler with a smaller boiler inside it. The large boiler produces hot water and steam. The water is at high pressure and is super heated beyond normal boiling point. The smaller boiler within it services the group head for coffee brewing. When you turn the pump on water passes through this small boiler and as it travels through it is heated to the correct temperature for your coffee.

If you leave a heat exchange machine sat without using it the water within the smaller boiler is heated to a higher temperature than is good for coffee brewing. This is where cooling flushes are needed in order to draw that water out bring the temperature down. It will depend on the machine as to how long you need to run a cooling flush and some machines are designed to help minimize this time but we are talking in terms of seconds. You then leave the machine for 30-40 seconds to recover back to temperature. This is the perfect time to grind and tamp your coffee.

If you are making multiple shots in succession you do not need to repeat the cooling flush cycle.

The Mara X does not require you to perform cooling flushes* as it holds the temperature in the larger steam and water boiler lower than a traditional machine. When you then start to brew coffee the main boiler will increase in temperature to allow for adequate steam to be produced to prepare milk. I believe there are multiple settings you can use to make the machine behave differently depending on what you would like to do with it.

*In certain usage patterns you may still need to perform cooling flushes.

Many members have the Mara X and like it.

The Magica PID is a lovely machine, it works much like a traditional Hx machine and will require cooling flushes when left however it also has PID functionality which enables you to adjust the temperature at which it produces brew water. This can be very handy when dialling in certain coffees. I personally am a big fan of how Bezzera handles the PID temperature control. With most PID machines you adjust the boiler temperature and then consult a chart in the manual as to how this effects the brew temperature. The way Bezzera have the PID set up is that you simply enter your desired brew temperature and it does all the thinking and worying about the offset for you. It makes a lot more sense that way to me! Bezzera machines are fabulously well put together and engineered and I think the classic Italian looks are superb. They are a great choice if you make milk drinks as the steam power is excellent from the large 2 litre boiler.

Cograts if you made it this far!


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

I can't remember if I sent this to you but well worth a watch. My own testing on the Magica PID reflects this video. I will be writing a blog post shortly about it with the results I recorded.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Good thread @Griffo. Lower Sages to ~£1k machine market after upgrading grinder is a natural path, but the answers aren't always immediately obvious. As I someone (Mildred M?) pointed out recently there's so much discussion about the toys, the taste in cup is almost an afterthought.

I'm lobbying for a new machine for our new house next year. Mara X seemed the obvious choice but tbh I don't like the look of that 'cake tray' style drip tray and top rack (I know that's a bit minor but just an aesthetic choice, I like everything else about it) and that doubt has opened my mind to Bezerra and ECM machines which look gorgeous.

I have a Sage BE and will be upgrading the grinder, that's sorted. I don't use the steam at all so leaving aside aesthetics, build quality, heat up times, workflow etc, from what I can glean from my initial reading, now @TomHughes and @BlackCatCoffee seem to agree, temperature stability/consistency/profiling is the main 'taste in cup' reason to buy one of these new machines.

My main concern is whether I will see a difference 'in cup' over BE and new (good) grinder and say Magica and the same new grinder. It seems that temp stability is the main advantage over the BE here, am I wrong and is there other 'result in cup' factors that I need to consider is what I'm in the (slow) process of researching. Most of us know the grinder is more important than the machine but I guess I'm looking for a 'sweet spot' set up where the grinder is good (say a Niche) and the machine gives me enough of a taste bump that it's worth upgrading for that reason. I don't see anyone paring a much more expensive grinder (say £1k+) with a BE so it can't be all about the grinder.

@BlackCatCoffee Above you ask the OP whether he likes light/medium/dark roasts. I know grinders can prefer/perform better at one end or the other, are you suggesting machines follow the same pattern?


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

CocoLoco said:


> @BlackCatCoffee Above you ask the OP whether he likes light/medium/dark roasts. I know grinders can prefer/perform better at one end or the other, are you suggesting machines follow the same pattern?


 It can be very handy to have the ability to adjust brew temperature for different coffees and different roast levels.

The further I get in to my own research and journey with machines and coffee the more I am realising just how crucial temperature and temperature stability are to all brewing methods but particularly to espresso.

If you do not use steam I would look at investing in a very nice quality PID control single boiler. Off the top of my head - ECM Classika PID, Bezzera Unica PID, Quickmill Alexia Evo.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> It can be very handy to have the ability to adjust brew temperature for different coffees and different roast levels.
> 
> The further I get in to my own research and journey with machines and coffee the more I am realising just how crucial temperature and temperature stability are to all brewing methods but particularly to espresso.
> 
> If you do not use steam I would look at investing in a very nice quality PID control single boiler. Off the top of my head - ECM Classika PID, Bezzera Unica PID, Quickmill Alexia Evo.


 Aah I see what you mean. Thanks for clarifying.

Thank you for the machine suggestions, I'll check those out.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> It can be very handy to have the ability to adjust brew temperature for different coffees and different roast levels.
> 
> The further I get in to my own research and journey with machines and coffee the more I am realising just how crucial temperature and temperature stability are to all brewing methods but particularly to espresso.
> 
> If you do not use steam I would look at investing in a very nice quality PID control single boiler. Off the top of my head - ECM Classika PID, Bezzera Unica PID, Quickmill Alexia Evo.


 This ^^^^^^^^^^^ @CocoLoco. ECM Casa is another one. Stay away from HX or Dual boilers. If tweaking / playing is your thing, then consider an E61 group and adding a paddle (Classika, Unica).

I have the Elizabeth and it's a dual boiler with PID. However, it does offer pre-infusion via the steam boiler, which makes a world of difference, IMO. But for the sake of simplicity (maintenance, flushes, descaling even, if you ever need to) stick to a SBDU machine. Or.... If it ever materialises.... The ECM Puristika. 🙂


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> This ^^^^^^^^^^^ @CocoLoco. ECM Casa is another one. Stay away from HX or Dual boilers. If tweaking / playing is your thing, then consider an E61 group and adding a paddle (Classika, Unica).
> 
> I have the Elizabeth and it's a dual boiler with PID. However, it does offer pre-infusion via the steam boiler, which makes a world of difference, IMO. But for the sake of simplicity (maintenance, flushes, descaling even, if you ever need to) stick to a SBDU machine. Or.... If it ever materialises.... The ECM Puristika. 🙂


 Thank you for the advice. I love the idea of Puristika but I've only seen one Youtube video with a German coffee enthusiast at a show trying it out. Looked very cool. Maybe it's out by the time I'm in the new house fingers crossed and I can consider it.

Tweaking/playing....no not really unless it was super easy. I just want a brilliant coffee with little to no work  But I will look at the machines you mention. The law of diminishing returns seems to kick in quite quickly from what I can tell, so of course while I am at the bottom atm with a BE, BE + Niche takes me up a bit and maybe Niche + one of the machines you and BlackCat mention takes me as high as I need to go. That's some of what attracted me to the Mara X in first place, people were saying it was less hassle and easy to use. I do get however that like most things, more work (like tweaking) put in will equal a better result. It's just how much is worth it to me. A bit personal taste I know but it's a factor in a new machine.

I was under the impression you want an E61 group as it helps temp stability but this doesn't seem as set in stone as I thought. I get the accessories considerations but I'm atm I am just trying to determine 'in cup' advantages.

'it does offer pre-infusion via the steam boiler, which makes a world of difference'

Without wishing to take up too much of your time, this is is something to look for? Most machines don't do that?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

CocoLoco said:


> Thank you for the advice. I love the idea of Puristika but I've only seen one Youtube video with a German coffee enthusiast at a show trying it out. Looked very cool. Maybe it's out by the time I'm in the new house fingers crossed and I can consider it.
> 
> Tweaking/playing....no not really unless it was super easy. I just want a brilliant coffee with little to no work  But I will look at the machines you mention. The law of diminishing returns seems to kick in quite quickly from what I can tell, so of course while I am at the bottom atm with a BE, BE + Niche takes me up a bit and maybe Niche + one of the machines you and BlackCat mention takes me as high as I need to go. That's some of what attracted me to the Mara X in first place, people were saying it was less hassle and easy to use. I do get however that like most things, more work (like tweaking) put in will equal a better result. It's just how much is worth it to me. A bit personal taste I know but it's a factor in a new machine.
> 
> ...


 Correct. Most machines don't do that. It's feature of the Elizabeth. But, personally, don't make this be a sticky point, because you'd be firing up and will have an extra boiler for that alone (not worth it if you only want to drink black coffee). One boiler, keep it simple, less things to go wrong.

One thing to note about any SBDU machines: Their audience and resale value are not great, well, not here at least. Usually people are after the dual boiler or HX machines here. The machines mentioned above are like Rancilio Silvias / Gaggia Classic's on steroids and beefed up. 🙂

E61 is great for temp stability, maintenance and maintainability. You can't backflush with chemicals unless you dismantle the cam lever and lubricate it. It also requires a fair amount of time to heat up and stabilise (40 minutes) compared the ring group machines (15-20 mins). (like the ECM Casa: https://www.ecm.de/en/products/details/product/Product/Details/casa-v/)


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## Bycraft (Nov 3, 2015)

Griffo said:


> I have a 3D printed connector for the BE portafilter to fit the niche cup. I told myself I'd at least wait for that first to see if it improves the user experience.
> 
> Thats coming from the US and according to Etsy is still in the states even after 2-3 weeks, so not sure I'll last 😂


 If you do end up upgrading in that time I'll happily take that adapter off of your hands, I just got the Niche upgrade for my BE and looking at buying the same thing 😅


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Could just happen as I've just dropped for a Marax, coming tomorrow.


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

Bycraft said:


> If you do end up upgrading in that time I'll happily take that adapter off of your hands, I just got the Niche upgrade for my BE and looking at buying the same thing 😅


 hum, personally i don't rate it that highly. nothing wrong with it per se, but at the moment the niche produces grinds that take up too much 'volume' at 18g. meaning it overflows the basket quite a lot until you tamp it. i prefer to put 'most' of the dose in first (say 15-16g), give it a light distribute, then put the rest in. less mess that way.

for that, i find this superior: https://www.amazon.co.uk/53mm-Coffee-Grinder-Dosing-Funnel/dp/B07SLYCCRR/ i have the 53mm, they do a 54mm which would probably be better, if it fits. probably someone will be along to tell me this is totally wrong and i should give up now 😹


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Correct. Most machines don't do that. It's feature of the Elizabeth. But, personally, don't make this be a sticky point, because you'd be firing up and will have an extra boiler for that alone (not worth it if you only want to drink black coffee). One boiler, keep it simple, less things to go wrong.
> 
> One thing to note about any SBDU machines: Their audience and resale value are not great, well, not here at least. Usually people are after the dual boiler or HX machines here. The machines mentioned above are like Rancilio Silvias / Gaggia Classic's on steroids and beefed up. 🙂
> 
> E61 is great for temp stability, maintenance and maintainability. You can't backflush with chemicals unless you dismantle the cam lever and lubricate it. It also requires a fair amount of time to heat up and stabilise (40 minutes) compared the ring group machines (15-20 mins). (like the ECM Casa: https://www.ecm.de/en/products/details/product/Product/Details/casa-v/)


 That's great, thanks for your advice, lots for me to think about.


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

CocoLoco said:


> That's great, thanks for your advice, lots for me to think about.


 It's insane isn't it. There's just so many options and they all look similar and seem to perform similarly. So how do you choose? Do you just go with the brand you like more? The subtle style differences you like (lets face it, pretty much none of them are THAT different in looks)?

A machine wiki would be awesome if one doesn't already exist. If I get time I could try and start one, but would obviously be reliant on our experienced members to chip in with their knowledge!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> With most PID machines you adjust the boiler temperature and then consult a chart in the manual as to how this effects the brew temperature.


 Really? I was under the impression pretty much every PID machine had a programmable offset which usually comes either pre-set or the correct setting is written in the manual. Out of curiosity, which machines have you used/know of that don't have an offset function built into the PID?


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Rob1 said:


> Really? I was under the impression pretty much every PID machine had a programmable offset which usually comes either pre-set or the correct setting is written in the manual. Out of curiosity, which machines have you used/know of that don't have an offset function built into the PID?


 As far as I know the system for setting the desired brew temperature like this is unique to Bezzera in Hx machines. Usually the temperature you adjust is the temperature inside the main boiler such as in the case of Rocket, Profitec, ECM etc.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> As far as I know the system for setting the desired brew temperature like this is unique to Bezzera in Hx machines. Usually the temperature you adjust is the temperature inside the main boiler such as in the case of Rocket, Profitec, ECM etc.


 Sorry I have to disagree with this. Rocket R58, yes. Profitec 300, 600, 700, Lelit Bianca, Elizabeth, ECM Synchronika.... there's an offset parameter which is programmable. Theres nothing clever about it: just add the offset to the display temp and that's the temp in the boiler.

and let's face it: there's not real good way to regulate relatively precisely the brew temperature on a traditional HX machine based on the temperature inside the service boiler. Unless there's clever mechanisms such as in the MaraX.


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## davril (Sep 17, 2012)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Sorry I have to disagree with this. Rocket R58, yes. Profitec 300, 600, 700, Lelit Bianca, Elizabeth, ECM Synchronika.... there's an offset parameter which is programmable. Theres nothing clever about it: just add the offset to the display temp and that's the temp in the boiler.
> 
> and let's face it: there's not real good way to regulate relatively precisely the brew temperature on a traditional HX machine based on the temperature inside the service boiler. Unless there's clever mechanisms such as in the MaraX.


 All the machines you have stated here are dual boiler?

What does this have to do with setting the group temperature on a PID Hx machine??


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

davril said:


> All the machines you have stated here are dual boiler?
> 
> What does this have to do with setting the group temperature on a PID Hx machine??


 Yes. I realised afterwards. You are correct in that regard. But you can't set an expected temperature in the service boiler of an HX machine and expect it to reflect that in the group. Unless it has cleverness like the MaraX. (I.e.: a temp sensor in the siphon loop and some clever programming to manage the controller).


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

I am not suggesting that Bezzera do anything earth shattering but as far as I know they are the only manufacturer that you set the desired brew temp and not the boiler temp and then have to consult a manual to figure out the corresponding brew temperature. It is purely a more logical and convenient way of doing things to me.

@MediumRoastSteam If you haven't had chance take a look at the video on the previous page, PID Hx machines are now surprisingly accurate when it comes to brew temperature. I have had one on my workbench for a few months and it is brilliant. Is it as accurate as dual boiler with PID? Not quite, but they are a great option. I will be posting my own test results on my blog shortly

👍


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> I am not suggesting that Bezzera do anything earth shattering but as far as I know they are the only manufacturer that you set the desired brew temp and not the boiler temp and then have to consult a manual to figure out the corresponding brew temperature. It is purely a more logical and convenient way of doing things to me.
> @MediumRoastSteam If you haven't had chance take a look at the video on the previous page, PID Hx machines are now surprisingly accurate when it comes to brew temperature. I have had one on my workbench for a few months and it is brilliant. Is it as accurate as dual boiler with PID? Not quite, but they are a great option. I will be posting my own test results on my blog shortly


Thanks! I'll take a look. I do like the simplicity of HX machines. If they can manage temperature better, even better!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Griffo said:


> It's insane isn't it. There's just so many options and they all look similar and seem to perform similarly. So how do you choose? Do you just go with the brand you like more? The subtle style differences you like (lets face it, pretty much none of them are THAT different in looks)?
> 
> A machine wiki would be awesome if one doesn't already exist. If I get time I could try and start one, but would obviously be reliant on our experienced members to chip in with their knowledge!


 I agree, there's all these options and many of the machines seem similar, but just from reading this thread they could have a reasonable impact on how you work/what result you get. A wiki would be nice but in the absence of that I'm making notes on what the more experienced members say, machines to look at, things to look out for etc.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

The new MaraX adjusts its heating element according to the temperature inside the hx tube, you have stable temp of the water for brewing and not stable steam for steaming that is great for a home user. Yesterday I received my sample and experiments began. This is a pic to compare it to Gaggia, it is extremely compact machine and nice looking. I will write more on this model later trying to comment on different aspects of it.


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

CocoLoco said:


> I agree, there's all these options and many of the machines seem similar, but just from reading this thread they could have a reasonable impact on how you work/what result you get. A wiki would be nice but in the absence of that I'm making notes on what the more experienced members say, machines to look at, things to look out for etc.


 Great idea. The machines i'm looking at and comparing are:



Lelit MaraX


Bezzera BZ10


ECM Mechanika V Slim


Profitec 500


Profitec 600


Bezzera Magica


Probably others I've missed too?

I know there's quite a range price-wise there, but happy to pay a bit more if it means I won't need/want to upgrade/change for a long time.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Griffo said:


> Great idea. The machines i'm looking at and comparing are:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Yep, those are on my long list too. However, as MediumRoastSteam interestingly pointed out to me, I may not even want an HX/Dual boiler. I think he may be right, I was just kind of rolling steam into the package. But I don't care about steam. So ECM Casa V, ECM Puristika when it arrives have entered my thoughts. BlackCat's suggestions of PID control single boilers like ECM Classika II PID, Bezzera Unica PID, Quickmill Alexia Evo also make sense.

I was looking at these last night and my girlfriend reminded me I haven't even got a new grinder yet and how much we're going to have to put into new house. Kind of shut me down a bit and my 'but look how amazing this looks' argument didn't seem to carry much weight unfortunately.


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Put your foot down with a firm hand ☺. My Marax arrived this afternoon ... very petite. Not sure if I should have gone for a Bianca or Profi 600 now though. It looks so small even when compared to a BE. Let's hope it's a grower .....


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

I've been talking to Claudette at Bella Barista in regards to this all this afternoon.

She said the MaraX has been built to a price and ticks a lot of boxes for the money, but the ECM and Profitec machines are of a higher build quality (of course they are, look at the price difference).

She said overall, ECM are probably the most reliable brand they stock and I also didn't know that Profitec machines are build by ECM but just with slightly lower quality parts.

The ECM is looking very attractive at the moment! (As is the Profitec 😩 decisions decisions!)


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

If you don't pick the Magica pick the ECM!


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

skylark said:


> Put your foot down with a firm hand ☺. My Marax arrived this afternoon ... very petite. Not sure if I should have gone for a Bianca or Profi 600 now though. It looks so small even when compared to a BE. Let's hope it's a grower .....


 Haha, that would not go well for me 😁

Enjoy the MaraX, I'm sure you'll love it. You have a Niche coming too right? That's a great set up. Probably the best bang for buck set up too. From what I've read those items are packing a lot into their prices, it feels like the 'sweet spot'.


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Yes, I went for the rule of thirds in dropping £500 for the niche with the balance on the Marax but I"m still not sure I've done the right thing. Something inside me says I should've hopped over the heat exchanger ring of the ladder and gone a step higher. We'll see when it's up and running .... how long have I got to return to BB?


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

30 days from when they sent it out I think, but don't quote me on that. Imagine that's contingent on their inspection too.


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> If you don't pick the Magica pick the ECM!


 Does the Magica stack up well against the ECM? I know it has PID.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

skylark said:


> Yes, I went for the rule of thirds in dropping £500 for the niche with the balance on the Marax but I"m still not sure I've done the right thing. Something inside me says I should've hopped over the heat exchanger ring of the ladder and gone a step higher. We'll see when it's up and running .... how long have I got to return to BB?


 If your doubting now, its going to be a waste of money hang on and save up for a DB. 😎🤣


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Too late, it's already here but still boxed until I can sort a grinder ... I'm in my cooling off period I think.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

skylark said:


> Too late, it's already here but still boxed until I can sort a grinder ... I'm in my cooling off period I think.


 Having used Dual boilers, HXs and the MaraX you will find it makes great drinks, is very quiet and a delight to use. For the price it's unbeatable and very simple to use. I think you will love it.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I had a coffee from one yesterday, so for the first time I saw one working. I was amazed how smart, quiet, compact it is.

the gentleman also had a temperature thermometer fitted at the group. Amazing how temp stable they are for a heat exchanger! No cooling flushes of doom, and the temperature was there, two lattes (made in series, one after the other) and the temperature was bang on 93 - 93.5C. Steaming and milk quality was excellent too.

I have the Lelit Elizabeth, a dual boiler, for the same price range. But if you want an HX, E61, I have to say it's the business. Can't be beaten.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Only one man can really tell you about the machine so can't really comment about the Mara X and or a DB.


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

Are cooling flushes hard to get right? Reading more about them and it has me worried (probably unnecessarily!)

Do those group head thermometers help with this? Are the needed?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Griffo said:


> Are cooling flushes hard to get right? Reading more about them and it has me worried (probably unnecessarily!)
> Do those group head thermometers help with this? Are the needed?


Not necessary on the MaraX. They defo help with cooling flushes. As you learn your machine and learn how to manage temp, then becomes second nature. The main issue with cooling flushes is sometimes how much water is wasted, specially if you use bottled water.

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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Griffo said:


> Are cooling flushes hard to get right? Reading more about them and it has me worried (probably unnecessarily!)
> 
> Do those group head thermometers help with this? Are the needed?


 No. It is a matter of seconds and just another part of your routine. You will not even think about after a while.

Go for the machine that ticks the most boxes for you. I know I have interest here and some will disagree but the cooling flush thing just isn't even close to being a deal breaker for me personally.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

For cooling flushes you need a brew-head group thermometer otherwise you shot in the dark. Why bother?


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## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I had a coffee from one yesterday, so for the first time I saw one working. I was amazed how smart, quiet, compact it is.
> 
> the gentleman also had a temperature thermometer fitted at the group. Amazing how temp stable they are for a heat exchanger! No cooling flushes of doom, and the temperature was there, two lattes (made in series, one after the other) and the temperature was bang on 93 - 93.5C. Steaming and milk quality was excellent too.
> 
> I have the Lelit Elizabeth, a dual boiler, for the same price range. But if you want an HX, E61, I have to say it's the business. Can't be beaten.


'Gentleman'? Do you know someone else with a MaraX too


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I do... but the other gentleman doesn't have a thermometer mounted on the group! 😂😂😂😂


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

Would you guys choose PID over no PID? The Profitec 500 with PID is only £20 more on BB than the ECM. Or is the ECM still the better machine? Haven't settled on those, but just wondering!


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I had a coffee from one yesterday, so for the first time I saw one working. I was amazed how smart, quiet, compact it is.
> 
> the gentleman also had a temperature thermometer fitted at the group. Amazing how temp stable they are for a heat exchanger! No cooling flushes of doom, and the temperature was there, two lattes (made in series, one after the other) and the temperature was bang on 93 - 93.5C. Steaming and milk quality was excellent too.
> 
> I have the Lelit Elizabeth, a dual boiler, for the same price range. But if you want an HX, E61, I have to say it's the business. Can't be beaten.


Say I make a couple of lattes , will the machine handle the shit followed by steaming for each or is it better to pull both shots and then steam separately? I could try but I'm waiting in a grinder still, arriving tmro.

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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

skylark said:


> Say I make a couple of lattes , will the machine handle the shit followed by steaming for each or is it better to pull both shots and then steam separately? I could try but I'm waiting in a grinder still, arriving tmro.
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


Oops, apologies for any offence ..... 'shot'

My account has been 'locked for 14 mins' .... what a pain! Thought it better to post an explanation from Tapatalk before the comments come 

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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

skylark said:


> Say I make a couple of lattes , will the machine handle the shit followed by steaming for each or is it better to pull both shots and then steam separately? I could try but I'm waiting in a grinder still, arriving tmro.
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 See post 49 in this thread. 🙂


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> See post 49 in this thread.


Seen that but it doesn't quite say what I'm asking. Is it two shots followed by bulk steaming or two x shot/steaming which is ideally how I'd like it.

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## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

skylark said:


> Seen that but it doesn't quite say what I'm asking. Is it two shots followed by bulk steaming or two x shot/steaming which is ideally how I'd like it. Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


It was pull the shot followed by steaming milk and then repeat process for the second one. I'm sure you can do this 4-5 times in succession and possibly more but I haven't tried that yet. Shot temps were the same using this method and also I get around 1.5 bar of steaming pressure which is more than enough (just raise and lower the lever quickly to kick the boiler in before pulling your 1st shot)

I'm sure I've read that you get good temp stability as long as shots are poured within 5 minutes of each other, if not best to wait 15 minutes for things to settle down again.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> two lattes (made in series, one after the other) and the temperature was bang on 93 - 93.5C. Steaming and milk quality was excellent too.


 @skylark 🤷‍♂️


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Cheers guys!

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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Anyone got a pic of the stock screen on a Marax. I've seen a couple of videos but the shower screen on mine looks different? Just opened the box to take a look around ...

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## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

I'm at work at the moment but if you put a picture of yours up I'll be able to say if they're the same or not.


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Here you are ...









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## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

I'd say it looks the same as mine, can you drop it out and take a photo of the inside ?


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

I've not dropped the screen yet as I"m just looking the machine over. Still undecided on whether it's a go-er or not. I have found a couple of Google images of the screen and, yes, it looks like a stock screen. For some reason I thought it was a different fitment. Thanks for your help!

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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

Whole Latte Love report that the Profitec 500 PID doesn't need cooling flushes and is temp stable. Some users report this too and others think this is nonesense - which is it?! Inclined to side with WLL as they have done it with a scace device.

Think I've narrowed it down to:



Profitec 500 PID


ECM Mechanika V Slim


Bezzera Magica PID - PID shows temperature at group head, which makes way more sense than other PID machines to me?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Griffo said:


> Whole Latte Love report that the Profitec 500 PID doesn't need cooling flushes and is temp stable. Some users report this too and others think this is nonesense - which is it?! Inclined to side with WLL as they have done it with a scace device.
> 
> Think I've narrowed it down to:
> 
> ...


 IMO, re Pro-500... nonsense. Yes, they can restrict the flow of the thermosyphon to slow down the heat transfer, which has other implications (like, recovery time). I think Fracino machines also say that an HX requiring a cooling flush is a badly designed HX. 🤷‍♂️. If you are worried or concerned by cooling flushes on HX machines, in any way, I strongly advice you to visit a retailer first ad try one on. I had a Rocket Celini HX in my past life... 150ml cooling flushes at 1bar pressure.


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> IMO, re Pro-500... nonsense. Yes, they can restrict the flow of the thermosyphon to slow down the heat transfer, which has other implications (like, recovery time). I think Fracino machines also say that an HX requiring a cooling flush is a badly designed HX. 🤷‍♂️. If you are worried or concerned by cooling flushes on HX machines, in any way, I strongly advice you to visit a retailer first ad try one on. I had a Rocket Celini HX in my past life... 150ml cooling flushes at 1bar pressure.


 I waste an insane amount of water already with the Barista Express, following the tips thread on the forum RE: pulling blank shots to get it really hot. I've never actually measured how much, but I just did myself a drink and worked out I waste 350ml for each drink! I have 3 drinks a day, so thats over a litre of bottled water wasted every single day 😩

100ml or so per shot would be fantastic!


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

This is another reason for the Osmio.


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Jony said:


> This is another reason for the Osmio.


Good sales pitch 

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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Griffo said:


> I waste an insane amount of water already with the Barista Express, following the tips thread on the forum RE: pulling blank shots to get it really hot. I've never actually measured how much, but I just did myself a drink and worked out I waste 350ml for each drink! I have 3 drinks a day, so thats over a litre of bottled water wasted every single day 😩
> 
> 100ml or so per shot would be fantastic!


 I've always thought that, it's a pitfall of the machine as you need that right temperature. I drink Americano mainly so I use the water I pull through it in warming up, but it's a lot to waste for those that don't.

Once you choose your machine would love to know how you get on with it.


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

CocoLoco said:


> I've always thought that, it's a pitfall of the machine as you need that right temperature. I drink Americano mainly so I use the water I pull through it in warming up, but it's a lot to waste for those that don't.
> 
> Once you choose your machine would love to know how you get on with it.


 Will let you know. Keep looking at dual boiler machines too, though it's probably not worth it for me? 3 drinks per day?

Can see the budget going up and up 😂😩


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

Guys, is it worth looking at dual boiler machines for my use - like the Profitec Pro 600 (maybe even Bianca - they look stunning)? One of the things that annoys me with the BE is inconsistency!

Damn this journey is so stressful! I'm spending hours every day it seems reading up on stuff! 😂😩


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

You know by now what we have all said. If you don't know neither do we, we have given you all the information you need.


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

It's not the machine per se, it's the grinder that's the problem. It just can't grind fine enough for 'some' beans, not all. So, find a bean which works. Maybe slip the internal burr down a couple of notches to grind that little bit finer and .... wahey, it works! Think it's the same problem for lots of us BE owners but it just takes a better grinder. I've just purchased a mignon specialista and it grinds way fluffier than the integrated grinder. Better spending money a grinder first as you'll need one whatever you decide, upgrade or not.

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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

@Griffo

I have one Duo left and I can hear it calling your name......


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> @Griffo
> I have one Duo left and I can hear it calling your name......


Looks v.nice but a big leap from the BE .... and, like I said a grinder will be needed on top. Isn't the BZ10 the next step up?

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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I do... but the other gentleman doesn't have a thermometer mounted on the group!


 Then you wonder why people start calling you sir? 😉


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

skylark said:


> Anyone got a pic of the stock screen on a Marax. I've seen a couple of videos but the shower screen on mine looks different?


 If you mean that it doesn't have 'Lelit' written on it, then I think you are mixing it with the screen from Elizabeth. Mara doesn't get this posh shower screen (but it will have something written on it once you get the IMS 200 IM). 🙂


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Griffo said:


> Guys, is it worth looking at dual boiler machines for my use - like the Profitec Pro 600 (maybe even Bianca - they look stunning)? One of the things that annoys me with the BE is inconsistency!
> 
> Damn this journey is so stressful! I'm spending hours every day it seems reading up on stuff! 😂😩


 As Jony says, we told you all the tricks of the trade. Figure out what you want, in terms of temp stability, precise temp control, simplicity, heat up time, maintenance, etc... cooling flushes? Is this your thing? 3 coffees a day is perfectly fine for those machines.

come back with your requirements and we can help you again. 😉


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

skylark said:


> Looks v.nice but a big leap from the BE .... and, like I said a grinder will be needed on top. Isn't the BZ10 the next step up?
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 I was suggesting it to Griffo as he had thrown the Bianca in to the mix of his choices and the Duo is similar in price (cheaper with the forum discount!).

An Hx like the BZ10 is next the next rung on the ladder from a BE I would say yes.


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

Just ordered the Profitec Pro 600 from BB. I like the idea of having consistent temperatures and also being able to play around for lighter roasts (I'm starting to get into "funky" coffees lately). Went with the Profitec over other machines as I can find a lot more info and users out there than other machines (Bezzera, Lelit). Should be here tomorrow so I'll update you all 

Anyone want a Barista Express for super cheap? 😂


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

What grinder did you choose to pair it with?

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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

skylark said:


> What grinder did you choose to pair it with?
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 I have a Niche Zero (delivered in August)


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Griffo said:


> I have a Niche Zero (delivered in August)


Lucky man . So the niche didn't improve his shot pulling on the BE or was it just the right time to move on?

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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

skylark said:


> Lucky man
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Niche improved it massively and made it a lot more consistent (pretty much no wasted coffee). I just think this is the next level for consistency.

Just made my first drink on it (will post pics soon!) and it was perfect. Was meant to be a flat white, but ended up being a cappuccino - the steam on this thing is mental!


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Griffo said:


> Niche improved it massively and made it a lot more consistent (pretty much no wasted coffee). I just think this is the next level for consistency.
> Just made my first drink on it (will post pics soon!) and it was perfect. Was meant to be a flat white, but ended up being a cappuccino - the steam on this thing is mental!


Good to hear that you're liking it ... I've yet to like my Msrax, hoping it will grow on me soon.

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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

skylark said:


> Good to hear that you're liking it ... I've yet to like my Msrax, hoping it will grow on me soon.
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 What don't you like about it? Using it? The coffee?


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Neither of those, it's still unused. I'm trialling the mignon grinder with my sage be at the moment and it's all good so it's not helping my transition to a new machine. My mindset is that I should have gone one more hop to a Bianca or Profi 600 to pique my interest a but more than the Marax. Not that it's a bad machine, in the contrary it looks to be a good prosumer choice but having spent a couple of years on the BE and knowing a tiny but more than I knew when I started, maybe the Marax is more if a startup purchase.

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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

skylark said:


> Neither of those, it's still unused. I'm trialling the mignon grinder with my sage be at the moment and it's all good so it's not helping my transition to a new machine. My mindset is that I should have gone one more hop to a Bianca or Profi 600 to pique my interest a but more than the Marax. Not that it's a bad machine, in the contrary it looks to be a good prosumer choice but having spent a couple of years on the BE and knowing a tiny but more than I knew when I started, maybe the Marax is more if a startup purchase.
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 Upgraditus kicks in fast.... 🙂 - I kind of know what you are saying... And that's the advice given to people here, time and again: Buy the best equipment you can afford in order to minimise upgrades.

The good news: If you bought from Bella Barista, there's a transferable warranty. You can sell it in here and make your next move - consider the time and any loss you made as "rental cost". Or, alternatively, you could have a chat to Bella Barista and see if you could trade-in your machine on something that suits you better? Seems to me you are kind of regretting the shortcomings of an HX machine (as the machines you mentioned are DB?)?


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Upgraditus kicks in fast....  - I kind of know what you are saying... And that's the advice given to people here, time and again: Buy the best equipment you can afford in order to minimise upgrades.
> The good news: If you bought from Bella Barista, there's a transferable warranty. You can sell it in here and make your next move - consider the time and any loss you made as "rental cost". Or, alternatively, you could have a chat to Bella Barista and see if you could trade-in your machine on something that suits you better? Seems to me you are kind of regretting the shortcomings of an HX machine (as the machines you mentioned are DB?)?


Yup!

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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

skylark said:


> Neither of those, it's still unused. I'm trialling the mignon grinder with my sage be at the moment and it's all good so it's not helping my transition to a new machine. My mindset is that I should have gone one more hop to a Bianca or Profi 600 to pique my interest a but more than the Marax. Not that it's a bad machine, in the contrary it looks to be a good prosumer choice but having spent a couple of years on the BE and knowing a tiny but more than I knew when I started, maybe the Marax is more if a startup purchase.
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 Pretty telling that you're still using the BE. I'd definitely speak to Bells Barista if you want to swap. They may charge a restocking fee or something but if it's unused maybe not.

Heres a pic - I still need to take the plastic off the drip tray and I'll take some pics in the day. Beautiful machine - really happy with it so far!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Griffo said:


> Pretty telling that you're still using the BE. I'd definitely speak to Bells Barista if you want to swap. They may charge a restocking fee or something but if it's unused maybe not.
> 
> Heres a pic - I still need to take the plastic off the drip tray and I'll take some pics in the day. Beautiful machine - really happy with it so far!
> 
> View attachment 45211


 Do they have the upgraded safety valve / pipe work to handle 2 bar Operational pressure in the service boiler?


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Do they have the upgraded safety valve / pipe work to handle 2 bar Operational pressure in the service boiler?


 I have absolutely no idea. Is there any way I can check without having to take it apart?

I know it makes damn good espresso...


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Griffo said:


> I have absolutely no idea. Is there any way I can check without having to take it apart?
> 
> I know it makes damn good espresso...
> 
> View attachment 45218


 I think it does... I can see your steam pressure over 1.6 bar 😉 - it's a great machine. I owned a Pro-700 in my previous life and rate it very highly.


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I think it does... I can see your steam pressure over 1.6 bar 😉 - it's a great machine. I owned a Pro-700 in my previous life and rate it very highly.


 Awesome! Now I just need to learn about maintaining it as I've never used an E61 before. Hopefully also using only Volvic and Tesco Ashbeck will mean I won't have to descale it?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Griffo said:


> Awesome! Now I just need to learn about maintaining it as I've never used an E61 before. Hopefully also using only Volvic and Tesco Ashbeck will mean I won't have to descale it?


 You do indeed. I do realise we are digressing from the thread OP. There are plenty of posts and threads here about maintenance and suitable water. In short: it will take longer, but at some point (maybe in a few years) you'll need to descale.


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## Aamz23 (Aug 20, 2018)

Griffo said:


> Pretty telling that you're still using the BE. I'd definitely speak to Bells Barista if you want to swap. They may charge a restocking fee or something but if it's unused maybe not.
> 
> Heres a pic - I still need to take the plastic off the drip tray and I'll take some pics in the day. Beautiful machine - really happy with it so far!
> 
> View attachment 45211


 Looks stunning, how are you getting on with it?


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

Aamz23 said:


> Looks stunning, how are you getting on with it?


 Love it! Bit too easy to make good coffee now 

Wasting much less water and coffee. My consumption has definitely gone up as well (also working from home has contributed to this). I've gone from having 2 a day, to 3 and now 4! (2 decaf)

I'll hopefully be able to put a bit of a review together (maybe even a video one). I definitely don't regret going another step up and spending extra to get the convenience of the stable brew temp.

I thought it was nonsense what people say when comparing these prosumer machines with the Sage ones, but they're absolutely right...the Sage is like a toy in comparison.


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## Aamz23 (Aug 20, 2018)

Griffo said:


> Love it! Bit too easy to make good coffee now
> 
> Wasting much less water and coffee. My consumption has definitely gone up as well (also working from home has contributed to this). I've gone from having 2 a day, to 3 and now 4! (2 decaf)
> 
> ...


 Do you think you would have benefitted from getting something like the Bianca with flow control? A review of it would be great. Im glad theres a marked difference between this and the sage. You really do want to see where your money is going


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## Rickster1978 (Jan 12, 2019)

Reading all of these threads with interest as my journey is very similar. Niche arrived last week and currently used with the Sage BE. Looking forward to deciding on my next purchase to replace the Sage


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## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

Aamz23 said:


> Do you think you would have benefitted from getting something like the Bianca with flow control? A review of it would be great. Im glad theres a marked difference between this and the sage. You really do want to see where your money is going


 Maybe, but you can add flow control to the Profitec so I can always do that down the line


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Griffo said:


> Maybe, but you can add flow control to the Profitec so I can always do that down the line


 You can add flow control to the MaraX too.


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