# Feeeeeeeedbaaaaack



## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Following on from my setup thread http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?24940-My-little-corner-of-the-kitchen - I was asked how I found the EK and its pours and such - grabbing one of my newer coffees I decided to do a one-shot run through of my technique and kitchen espresso creation.

Any feedback on my technique gratefully received - I am an amateur (although it looks like I'll hopefully get a guest shift in Edinburgh before too long) so consistency probably matters - I've been making espresso for a few weeks now only, all the knowledge I've gained before then is entirely theoretical and it's harder to get peer feedback on practical elements when you're alone in a kitchen hah.






Probably can't take 5 min per shot in a shop of course...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What dial is that ( how many numbers does it go up to ? )

Small thing - Personally I wouldn't exert pressure and twist at the same time ( i cant tell if you are doing this or not )

Sounds like it tastes great , so cant add much really


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Have you tried reducing pressure , allowing you to go a little bit coarser btw

How much coffee has the EK had through it


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> What dial is that ( how many numbers does it go up to ? )


Stock dial, I'll get the 3FE one at some point but then I'll need to convert my spreadsheet over!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

robashton said:


> Stock dial, I'll get the 3FE one at some point but then I'll need to convert my spreadsheet over!


 @Xpenno made a dial convertor


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Small thing - Personally I wouldn't exert pressure and twist at the same time ( i cant tell if you are doing this or not )


It's not something I've deliberately given thought to, I suspect I probably am doing a bit of this - I'll deliberately *not* do this next time. You got the rationale behind this? (I could think of a few things it might affect!)


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

More likely to damage the puck doing that, the twist is just to polish the surface slightly so need minimal/no pressure. Twisting with pressure could blow things up. The twist is going out of fashion a bit now but i think it gives a slightly tidier result


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Have you tried reducing pressure , allowing you to go a little bit coarser btw


Yeah, I dropped down to 6 bars, then upped to 8 bars and then came back to 9.5 bars again - while it allowed for slower pours, with this basket size it also meant it was harder to get a good extraction without pouring big gulp espresso. (At least so my taste buds said).

I suspect for the pacamana I might end up going back down to 8 again, I've got to wait a couple of days before using that though.



> How much coffee has the EK had through it


About 8kg so far I reckon - it's starting to feel a lot easier now, that's for sure.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

What's wrong with 50g shots btw? That's one of the reasons i got an EK, you get more drink out it


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> What's wrong with 50g shots btw? That's one of the reasons i got an EK, you get more drink out it


Nothing! It's one of the reasons I got one too, but by big gulp I mean I was going way beyond that 50g when at lower pressure and I do like a *bit* of mouthfeel in my cup!

I like a slightly slower and tighter pour simply because it's easier to control, my general yield with fresher coffee seems to be around the 48/50 mark, dropping down to 42 as the coffee ages (so my spreadsheet says anyway)


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Before you tamp is your coffee bed even across the top?

It was difficult to tell from your video, but I find having an even bed can make a significant difference, as when you tamp you are leaving minimal chance for one part to be more dense than another. I find it easiest to achieve this with a slightly more vigorous side to side wiggle (probably best with coffee catch in place). Others would decry disturbing the bed so much before tamping, but this works for me.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Couldn't see the bed but i thought that's what the purpose of the shake and tap was.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Dylan said:


> Before you tamp is your coffee bed even across the top?


Yup - that's about the only basket prep I do, a few taps with the catcha on and sometimes one after I've removed any excess coffee just to make sure it's flat


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Just after your second tap with your hand, you tilt the basket toward the camera and it doesn't look particularly even, this may just be the angle. For me having a virtually flat top of puck before tamping was a big change for eliminating channeling.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)




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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Question - you mention dropping the pressure with the Sage DB. Is that just by running the whole shot at one of the pre-infusion pressures or have I missed some additional level of functionality with my machine?


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Dylan said:


>










:good:

I'm usually pretty close to this - it makes tamping that much easier! I get annoyed sometimes when I do a vertical tap and it then all goes wonky. That's part of what I was talking about fiddling messing up consistency - I like to Keep It Simple


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

NickdeBug said:


> Question - you mention dropping the pressure with the Sage DB. Is that just by running the whole shot at one of the pre-infusion pressures or have I missed some additional level of functionality with my machine?


You have to open it up and adjust the OPV - there are a couple of blog entries out there and half a youtube video describing this.

http://nic.steve-tek.com/?page_id=180

Does a half decent job - it's good to have a second pair of eyes nearby as you'll find it fiddly the first time. It's much easier if the machine is hot as the over-pressure run-off is more pliable and easy to pull off the valve. (edit: Yes, some bits will burn you at this rate - either man up or just be careful hah)


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## Zephyr (Apr 19, 2015)

Great video, I'll come over for a cup


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Zephyr said:


> Great video, I'll come over for a cup


Everybody is always welcome at my apartment - I have too much coffee (is that even a thing?) and folk are welcome to play with my set-up.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

robashton said:


> Nothing! It's one of the reasons I got one too, but by big gulp I mean I was going way beyond that 50g when at lower pressure and I do like a *bit* of mouthfeel in my cup!
> 
> I like a slightly slower and tighter pour simply because it's easier to control, my general yield with fresher coffee seems to be around the 48/50 mark, dropping down to 42 as the coffee ages (so my spreadsheet says anyway)


Why would lower pressure = more spro?

Same dose > same bev weight

Less pressure > coarser grind


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

robashton said:


> You have to open it up and adjust the OPV - there are a couple of blog entries out there and half a youtube video describing this.
> 
> http://nic.steve-tek.com/?page_id=180
> 
> Does a half decent job - it's good to have a second pair of eyes nearby as you'll find it fiddly the first time. It's much easier if the machine is hot as the over-pressure run-off is more pliable and easy to pull off the valve. (edit: Yes, some bits will burn you at this rate - either man up or just be careful hah)


righto - happy with what I get now so will probably leave well enough alone rather than stuff my Lakeland lifetime warranty by leaving scratches on the screwheads for the forensic team to find

thanks for the info and link though


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Why would lower pressure = more spro?
> 
> Same dose > same bev weight
> 
> Less pressure > coarser grind


Only reporting what ended up in my spreadsheet - I found it was hard to extract the flavour I wanted out of the coffee at a lower pressure so I ended up running it longer (or tightening up the grind to compensate). I don't have a refractometer so only have my taste buds to report on that.

I'll experiment with pressure again when I've had a bit more practise and can make more experienced judgements on this.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Perhaps even try the virtual opposite of my earlier point and try to disturb the bed less. Shake in your coffee grounds, wiggle to level them and tamp straight out. Other have said tapping causes migration of fines and can cause channeling itself.

Basically worth experimenting with distribution until you find your 'sweet spot' to avoid channeling.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

The cleanliness of my shots seem to be inversely proportional to the time spent grooming my basket - a couple of taps and swiftly into the tamp seems to yield the best results!

[edit] Although I'm happy to accept that this potentially because I have no idea what I'm doing so "best to leave well enough alone"


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

I just tightened up my grind further and pulled a 45g shot in 41s (that includes a 10s pre-infusion). I just hit 'sweetness' holy crap this is what everybody has been talking about.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

robashton said:


> I just tightened up my grind further and pulled a 45g shot in 41s (that includes a 10s pre-infusion). I just hit 'sweetness' holy crap this is what everybody has been talking about.


We should swap spreadsheets .....


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I never find EK shots that take >30 secs that nice. Flavours seems to get muddled. Might have to play about tonight.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Give me a few months and I'll publish the highlight reel.

There are tons of really bad shots in here where I've been experimenting with less than adequate coffee (and some really bad shots with good coffee too, exploring where the boundaries are).

I'll get a VST refractometer in a month (although I'll try to borrow @jeebsy 's before then) so I can start backing up my taste buds with some hard data.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> I never find EK shots that take >30 secs that nice. Flavours seems to get muddled. Might have to play about tonight.


It's those blasted new burrs


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

27-28 is my own preference, and would generally err lower if i had to choose. Could always get the two EKs side by side for a test


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Do you pre-infuse at all? If I look at my spreadsheet I'd probably be stopping at about 31s if I wasn't doing my big 10s pre-infuse.



> Could always get the two EKs side by side for a test


It could well be machine differences too, and the coffee we're using, and our own personal preferences for what we want on our taste buds.

I'd be interested to do this.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Yeah 10 secs preinfusion. Will get a side by side arranged at some point then.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Wow - so you're doing a 10s pre-infuse and still stopping before 30? I imagine that keeps most of the fruit in there


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Currently running 14 seconds pre at 2 bar.

Rest at 6 bar


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Currently running 14 seconds pre at 2 bar.
> 
> Rest at 6 bar


What size baskets? That sounds very colonna and smalls!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

robashton said:


> Wow - so you're doing a 10s pre-infuse and still stopping before 30? I imagine that keeps most of the fruit in there


With preinfusion the rest of the shot runs faster so it sort of balances out. I can't preinfuse on the Rancilio though



Mrboots2u said:


> Currently running 14 seconds pre at 2 bar.
> 
> Rest at 6 bar


What's your shot times?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Baskets 20g vst dose normally 19.8 g

Output 45-47 g

Tds Target 9-9.3

EY target 22 % plus

Time - good stuff is at around 27-30 seconds shot time ( including pre )

Taste Target Nom

Not all coffee can handle it though


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The new burrs allow for shots to be run in a more conventional fashion than old burrs.

That said the new burrs ability to run tasty long shots isn't negatively impacted.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

robashton said:


> You got the rationale behind this? (I could think of a few things it might affect!)


Downward pressure + twisting = torque. We advise against this when training mainly because its very difficult to maintain a straight down tamp whilst twisting. I suspect it could create fractures within the coffee bed too


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> The new burrs allow for shots to be run in a more conventional fashion than old burrs.
> 
> That said the new burrs ability to run tasty long shots isn't negatively impacted.


New burr envy surfaces again...


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> The new burrs allow for shots to be run in a more conventional fashion than old burrs.


EKristretto?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> EKristretto?


EKristretto feels a bit forced? RistrEKto perhaps...







?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

RistrEKo maybe. Ectos are something else in Glasgow


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> RistrEKo maybe. Ectos are something else in Glasgow


Might be able to charge more for some customers then...


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

garydyke1 said:


> Downward pressure + twisting = torque. We advise against this when training mainly because its very difficult to maintain a straight down tamp whilst twisting. I suspect it could create fractures within the coffee bed too


Neat - I deliberately focused on doing just down pressure in an even way, and then gave it a little twist to polish off and it was

a) Much easier

b) Much gentler on my wrists

c) Functional and fast

I'm sold.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> RistrEKo maybe. Ectos are something else in Glasgow


19g in, 34 out over 28s was seriously the only way I could get some of that [redacted - darker local stuff] stuff to be remotely palatable. I can't imagine it would be possible on the old burrs.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Nice video and thanks for posting with commentary. Process flow looks good and reminds me of the joy of single dosing...easy now you don't need an Ek, you don't!

As others have mentioned the only thing I noticed was the amount of tamper twisting, most do a simple polish to finish but I have now ditched that altogether as I have not noticed any difference in shot quality or screen residues since stopping. I think there is an inbuilt impulse to faff more than is necessary but worth giving a go and seeing if it works for you.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

forzajuve said:


> I think there is an inbuilt impulse to faff more than is necessary but worth giving a go and seeing if it works for you.


I think you're right - and this is something I am actively avoiding! I've ditched any pressure whilst twisting and the only reason I do a light twist at the end is to make sure I've got a clean exit from the puck (and also it helps avoid the vacuum as I lift and therefore avoids pulling the puck from the bottom of the basket!!)


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

I think that the contrast is a bit off on my monitor. When I watched the video I could not see the hopper and it just looked like you very skilfully poured the beans into the grinder from a height, and with somewhat of a theatrical flourish.

I was a bit disappointed when I noticed the hopper was there.


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Flip me that EK grinds fast!


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Sk8-bizarre said:


> Flip me that EK grinds fast!


I want to pour beans into it just to watch them disappear, you can run it up to 45 minutes in theory before it cuts off, I imagine this experience to be very cathartic (and expensive)


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

NickdeBug said:


> looked like you very skilfully poured the beans into the grinder from a height, and with somewhat of a theatrical flourish.


Video has bad contrast for sure - now I've watched that bit I can't un-see it, it looks amazing - something to practise for real perhaps.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Great vid, easy watching and good commentary. Can't help wonder why have you got a jar of instant next to the EK?









You tamp similar to me, except I don't give an extra push - I just use two fingers and a thumb to push and level it (was advised to grind fine and tamp light).


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Rhys said:


> I just use two fingers and a thumb to push and level it (was advised to grind fine and tamp light).


This is roughly my new technique after comments on this video.

I don't think pressure makes much of a difference to extraction (and therefore grind size) - once you have 9 bars of pressure hitting that puck it's going to get compacted more than you could anyway. I've been told "get the air out and move on"


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Rhys said:


> Can't help wonder why have you got a jar of instant next to the EK?


I thought I was the only one who had noticed!

How is the consistency of the grind on the EK when single dosing? I'm guessing it somehow isn't affected in the same way as other grinders in that the consistency suffers if there is no weight on top of the beans?


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

risky said:


> I thought I was the only one who had noticed!
> 
> How is the consistency of the grind on the EK when single dosing? I'm guessing it somehow isn't affected in the same way as other grinders in that the consistency suffers if there is no weight on top of the beans?


It's a sheer vertical drop right into the burrs so this isn't a factor.

consistency wise the only issue ends up being heat when busy (anecdotally from friends who run coffee shops), not much room to move down on even the new coffee burrs.

makes an ideal home grinder though because you pretty much know where you need to be on the dial and you know every shot will be "identical".

only issue I have is at 4pm it ends up in direct sunlight and that absolutely throws my game.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

And yes I have Nescafé - I cater for all my guests regardless of taste!


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

robashton said:


> It's a sheer vertical drop right into the burrs so this isn't a factor.


Isn't this the case for every grinder? Or do you mean because the burrs are not mounted horizontally? I would have thought the lack of weight on the beans would still cause issues though.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

The burrs are mounted vertically iirc

The beans rarely rattle around in there, they just pop right through like in the video.

i have one or twice switched the power off and then realised a single bean hadn't quite made it in - it usually still grinds because those burrs are still moving at a silly pace. But this is one shot in a hundred.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

The burrs are mounted vertically and it's got an augur pulling the beans in. Be interesting to see if running it with a hopper made a difference, but you'd need a lot of beans


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

risky said:


> Isn't this the case for every grinder? Or do you mean because the burrs are not mounted horizontally? I would have thought the lack of weight on the beans would still cause issues though.


There is a pre breaker before the burrs, no popcorning


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> The burrs are mounted vertically and it's got an augur pulling the beans in. Be interesting to see if running it with a hopper made a difference, but you'd need a lot of beans


Ah yes I'd forgotten about the augur. As you say, you would need some amount of beans to be able to really test it. I'm guessing the difference would be negligible though.


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