# What Weighs 38 lbs And Fits In Your Hand Luggage?



## 4085

Have started this thread off for Versalab owners in suggestion with CC. That way, we can keep all questions and discussion relevant to the M3 under one roof, making it easier to track down and find, etc etc.

Having received mine yesterday, alongside Mr B, I can say setting it up was a doodle. I have not applied the reference point dots yet, but may when I understand the instructions properly!

Only pulled around 10 shots, and so far am amazed at the results. I have to say though, the journey to buy one for me, was quite long and IO am glad that I have owned the other grinders before this one, as it makes it far easier to appreciate.!


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## DavidBondy

Great idea to have a thread for the Versalab, Davids. Once we add a few more owners then we can start our own forum here as well!

Now, it may fit in your hand luggage - in fact it WILL fit in your hand luggage - but at 38lbs, I don't think that you'd find it that easy to sneak onto the plane!

I've had to tighten my grind up a tad this morning. I am now about ⅓ off (just) touching burrs. At ½ it was running a little too fast. Still amazed at the pile of fluffy grounds! I'm using 17g in a VST 18g basket.

I did notice that if I use the LM Stainless Steel double spout PF, then that is a little high and withdrawing it from the PF holder results in some of the top of the volcano being brushed off. I think I would dose into my HG-One blind tumbler and then decant if I need to use a double spout.

What an amazing grinder in such a small form factor! In spite of the machinations of FedEx and HMRC, I am so glad that I went in this direction!


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## ronsil

Please may I join in from time to time?.

As an ex Versalab Owner I may be able to contribute something & in any case I still love the Machine.


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## DavidBondy

I believe that the only restriction Ron is that discussions are confined to the Versalab.

Oh, and you've got to change your name to David!!


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## ronsil

Never see myself as a 'David' but there will be no mention of another grinder other than the V...


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## 4085

Good stuff Ron, because I am sure you and Eric, having been long term owners will have a mountain of useful bits and pieces, then there is short term owner and general afficiendo CC. I watched a documnetary on The Red Devils last night and they do not refer toe ach other by name, but squadron position, so, I propose

Eric 1

Ron 2

CC 3

DB 4

DFK 5


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## 4085

How does the donut form so perfectly?


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## ronsil

The rotating moving wiper seems to create a downdraft like those VTOL (Harriers) aircraft.

There's probably a more scientific explanation.


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## DavidBondy

I'm not sure how number five is finding it, but I am now able to make a much longer pour before it starts to blonde. I think that this is due to a more even grind leading to a more even extraction. I've just switched from my own OBJ roast to Coffee Compass' French Breakfast Blend. Minimal tweaking required.

You do need to be careful when removing the PF from the M3. If you don't lower it, almost to the base plate, then you run the risk of knocking the top of the volcano off - I've done it more than once! As long as you're mindful of this, I think that this is the best grinder that I have ever used, bar none!

Number Four


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## ronsil

After a time you get used to lowering down before pulling away.

Until that time arrives you need to keep a table brush handy.

Number two (I think)


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## 4085

Perhaps 4 could post a pic and weight details/ I am getting a donut as opposed to a volcano....quite happy hough, just wondering why, unless 4 is dosing more than I. I seem to be happiest at the moment around 16 gms into an 18 gm vat. things might change when I get my lever though.


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## ronsil

Both numbers 4 & 5 are correct.

Volcano as looking into the depths from a mound.

Doughnut (American) as with a hole in the middle

Number Two


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## ronsil

I think there is at least 1 other Versalab owner on here somewhere.

I seem to remember about a year or so ago someone,out of the blue, contacted me asking about replacement burrs.

Number Two


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## 4085

Great. Can the new number 6 reveal himself?


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## Drewster

dfk41 said:


> Great. Can the new *number 6* reveal himself?


I am not a number I am a free man!!

True, I don't own a Versalab either.


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## Gangstarrrrr

DavidBondy said:


> Great idea to have a thread for the Versalab, Davids. Once we add a few more owners then we can start our own forum here as well!
> 
> Now, it may fit in your hand luggage - in fact it WILL fit in your hand luggage - but at 38lbs, I don't think that you'd find it that easy to sneak onto the plane!
> 
> I've had to tighten my grind up a tad this morning. I am now about ⅓ off (just) touching burrs. At ½ it was running a little too fast. Still amazed at the pile of fluffy grounds! I'm using 17g in a VST 18g basket.
> 
> I did notice that if I use the LM Stainless Steel double spout PF, then that is a little high and withdrawing it from the PF holder results in some of the top of the volcano being brushed off. I think I would dose into my HG-One blind tumbler and then decant if I need to use a double spout.
> 
> What an amazing grinder in such a small form factor! In spite of the machinations of FedEx and HMRC, I am so glad that I went in this direction!


Would the box fit in hand luggage or only the grinder itself? The weight isn't too bad seeing as it's a 1 way trip. Would need something strong though!


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## 4085

Great. Can the new number 6 reveal himself?


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## Drewster

dfk41 said:


> Great. Can the new *number 6* reveal himself?


I am not a number I am a free man!

Hang on! Haven't we been here before?


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## DavidBondy

Gangstarrrrr said:


> Would the box fit in hand luggage or only the grinder itself? The weight isn't too bad seeing as it's a 1 way trip. Would need something strong though!


I've just done a quick measurement and the box is 45x32x32cm so, I think too large.

The grinder is 35x15x21cm so would fit into a holdall.

Most airlines do have a weight limit on carry-on bags and, in my recent experience, they are less forgiving than they used to be.

Also, and this is important, if the TSA decide that you cannot take something on board they WILL confiscate it. Even if you opt not to fly you will NOT get it back. This has happened to me returning from the USA.

I would check the sealed box and then pay the duty on arrival!


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## DavidBondy

ronsil said:


> Both numbers 4 & 5 are correct.
> 
> Volcano as looking into the depths from a mound.
> 
> Doughnut (American) as with a hole in the middle
> 
> Number Two


Agree with Ron. We are talking about the same thing. I think Eric referred to it as a volcano! I'm dosing 17g into an 18g VST basket.

I'll try to take some pictures during the week.

Number Four


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## 4085

I have seen Youtube videos where they are obviously over dosing as when they remove the pf it has a volcano, as in a mount stretching upwards that they immediately start to try and flatten! And I prefer the name volcano to donut for obvious health reasons! I will gring 16 gms into a 15 and 18 gm vst and photo the end result.

Number 5, over and out


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## 4085

Right, pics are self explanatory


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## Gangstarrrrr

DavidBondy said:


> I've just done a quick measurement and the box is 45x32x32cm so, I think too large.
> 
> The grinder is 35x15x21cm so would fit into a holdall.
> 
> Most airlines do have a weight limit on carry-on bags and, in my recent experience, they are less forgiving than they used to be.
> 
> Also, and this is important, if the TSA decide that you cannot take something on board they WILL confiscate it. Even if you opt not to fly you will NOT get it back. This has happened to me returning from the USA.
> 
> I would check the sealed box and then pay the duty on arrival!


Think I got lucky at Las Vegas. TSA agent pulled me up on the HG one. She was rather bemused when I explained what it was but sent me on my way. Have to say most TSA agents wouldn't have been as easy going.

Would check it an hope it's not treated too badly. What was the packaging like?


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## 4085

Well, mine sur vived its Transatlantic voyage ok! The packaging is quite basic but functional. With it beong quite small, it just sits in a foam insert and cannot really go anywhere. If you had a friend over there, you could have it delivered to them, ask them to run a couple of shots of coffee through it, open all the bags and instructions to make it look a little used, and make the declarations out as a gift......


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## coffeechap

Viernes has a versalab

Number 3


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## Gangstarrrrr

dfk41 said:


> Well, mine sur vived its Transatlantic voyage ok! The packaging is quite basic but functional. With it beong quite small, it just sits in a foam insert and cannot really go anywhere. If you had a friend over there, you could have it delivered to them, ask them to run a couple of shots of coffee through it, open all the bags and instructions to make it look a little used, and make the declarations out as a gift......


Then you run into problems with insurance on the transatlantic leg.


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## 4085

Why, just have it shipped like any other cargo


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## Terranova

Gangstarrrrr said:


> Then you run into problems with insurance on the transatlantic leg.


The insurance won't pay anyway, no matter how you pack it or ship it, it is kind of impossible to get a penny of them.

Despite the fact that it would take ages just to get an answer of them, at least this is my experience I have had with them. (DHL, USPS)

The heaviest part of the whole grinder is the base which weights 7kg or so, you can take it of without any worries about alignment.

Just need to unscrew the controller and the 4 screws holding the lower side plates.

The base is made of the cheapest steel available worldwide (ST 37) so losing it is not a big deal, any machinist with 2 left hands is able to drill these 4 + 1 holes (controller) into a new one.

A powder coating of the new base might be another 20€ or so, otherwise it will oxidize during some hours.


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## 4085

Frank, would you like to be a member of this thread? Your experience and thoghts would be invaluable. We can officially make you number 6. I am going to contact Viernes as well, as I believe he does post here and he can be number 7. the family is getting bigger!


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## EricC

Hi all,

I have found the best way to "settle" the volcano is to remove the portafilter as Ron says and to give it a sharp tap on the portafilter stand i have, then simply tamp.

It is formed by the lower wiper creating a vortex inside the lower funnel which spins the grounds as they drop.

Number One


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## Gangstarrrrr

dfk41 said:


> Why, just have it shipped like any other cargo


If you pop over to the US and want to save international shipping and other costs.


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## DavidBondy

EricC said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have found the best way to "settle" the volcano is to remove the portafilter as Ron says and to give it a sharp tap on the portafilter stand i have, then simply tamp.
> 
> It is formed by the lower wiper creating a vortex inside the lower funnel which spins the grounds as they drop.
> 
> Number One


I totally agree. The best bit of coffee kit you can get for a quid is an ice hockey puck. It is perfect for settling the grounds exactly as the XO says!


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## coffeechap

i just nutate the grinds into the centre and tamp works a treat....

number 3


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## Terranova

dfk41 said:


> Frank, would you like to be a member of this thread?


Oh thanks, but I don't own a VL anymore and it would look pretty much like advertising when I am here.

But I can always help you if your grinder has a break down or so.

BTW. the 2nd picture looks pretty much like an "egg dropping" or "bollock dropping"







issue.

That happens when you stop the motor and compromised fines which have been caught up at the angle of the wiper are falling down, it often destroys the shot by an uneven extraction.

The distribution technique also worked best for me when swiping east west, north south with the finger and tamp.

A knock on the counter with the PF did not work for me.

Also before I take the PF out of the holder I switch off the motor, turn the big transmission wheel back by hand a quarter turn , switch the motor on and off again and take out the PF.

That is because the moving wiper often pushes the grind along inside the funnel instead of letting it out.

When overdosing then I am using a little dosing funnel between the PF and lower funnel.


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## 4085

Frank, please feel free to dip in and out as you wish. Number 2 is not an owner now either, as he sold his machine to Number 3! If you change your mind, you will always be most welcome.


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## charris

Frank we want you here, please post more!


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## Terranova

Here is another










And here 2 egg dropping beasts






Slayer Hong Kong


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## EricC

I think that the "egg drop" problems we are seeing may be partially due to the over dosing of the particular basket being used.

I have not had this problem when the ground dose is within the confines of the portafilter / basket as in David's first picture.

My M3 has never suffered from this problem, maybe it is because i also pulse the grinder a couple of times before removing the portafilter from the holder.


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## 4085

I agree with Number One! I have obviously very limited use and experience so far, but I think you have to work within the confines of your baskets. This is where arguments for VST, IMS, ridged, ridge less may need some additonal thoughts


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## Orangertange

So probably not allowed to post hear because not a member, but just wondering what it costs to join the club?


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## 4085

Oranger, or should we call your possible number 7? I ordered mine and paid in full. they normally ask for 50% at ordering. She quoted me about 10 days and stuck to her words. With the dollar exchange rate being good (I got $1.70) I ordered the grinder, pf assembly and spare belt plus carriage. My credit card charged me £1365 plus £35 foreign transaction fee. The import duty was a total of £296


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## DavidBondy

You may need to add another £35 to that number five. I have received invoices in the past from FedEx for that sort of amount which is their handling fee. I do not think it was included in the import tax fees. It usually dropped onto my doormat a few days after the delivery. Hopefully, I am wrong about this!

I didn't order a spare belt but we both paid the same duty so I assume the declared value was the same! Odd!

Number Four


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## 4085

Number Four, that would also explain the discrepancy when we crunched the numbers! Now I actually have it, I am so enamoured that another £35 is not going to spoil the party too much!


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## Orangertange

Mmm tempting, so works out a bit cheaper than a ek or even a robur, wonder if I ask a septi....I mean American friend to send it could avoid some of the costs


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## 4085

The thing is, if you delay making that decision, then the exchange rate will either work for you, or against you. It was that that made me dive in now. @ 1.70, I could not see it going up much more, plus, they have shut down now for vacation, so will not be open for business again till at least the middle of the month.


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## Orangertange

Cheers for that, got a few weeks to think about joining then


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## coffeechap

Approx £1650


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## 4085

It is probably a daft observation, but I have been suffering popcorning. Number Four suggested pouring them in more slowly. I should say I was pouring them in bit by bit as opposed to putting them all in at the start, but going a little more slowly does seem to do the trick


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## Orangertange

I see people have made nice wood turned lids for them when I've been window shopping surly something your guy could do


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## ronsil

A simple hand/palm around the spindle did the job for me for many years. Became automatic to do it every time.

There are various slotted covers in all sorts materials available if you prefer something more pretty

Number Two


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## 4085

My guy can only turn things on a lathe. I am sure eventually someone will volunteer these anyway. But, if you go a little slower, which is easy to do, there is no problem!


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## Viernes

Hello.







:good:


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## 4085

Gentlemen, can I officially extend a warm hand to Viernes, who will officially fill the Number 6 slot. 5 more and we have a football team!


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## DavidBondy

Hi Viernes and welcome as number six!


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## Viernes

666










Thank you.


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## Terranova

This is a dosing funnel which I use to avoid clumping or a messed up base on a lets say grinder with the "similar" principle.

It sits between PF and lower funnel.


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## coffeechap

How much are those frank and do they sit on the portafilter?


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## 4085

Frank, everything you make is nice and shiny! Number 6, can we tempt you to post some photos and information about the things Frank has done to your M3.


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## Terranova

coffeechap said:


> How much are those frank and do they sit on the portafilter?


There is an onlineshop in Germany which got them made in Aluminium, 25€ many different sizes.

This one on the picture is Titanium Grade 5 and costs ~ 4 x more and not available there:act-up:.

http://www.tidaka.net

I think on Nr.6 VL there is not much left which is original.


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## DavidBondy

coffeechap said:


> How much are those frank and do they sit on the portafilter?


I think you may need Frank's extension to lift the grinder off the base to allow clearance for this funnel.


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## ronsil

I've dealt with Tidaka quite a bit. Had baskets & collars from them.

Very well made & very helpful lady on the Site.

BTW - That website is available in English


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## DavidBondy

ronsil said:


> That website is available in English


Got a link for that Ron? TiA


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## DavidBondy

I am using one of these between my double-spouted stainless steel LM PF (which is taller than the standard one) and the grinder. I find it is just enough to clear the bottom funnel when dosing 17g into an 18g VST basket:


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## ronsil

Although its not the original page, can't find the link, this should get you there.

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.tidaka.net/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dtidaka%2Btamper%2Benglish%26biw%3D1469%26bih%3D1313


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## Orangertange

These are what I saw when window shopping


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## DavidBondy

Orangertange said:


> These are what I saw when window shopping


Where? Thanks!!


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## Orangertange

One was on home barista and the other was kaffee-nets but think they are home made, look pretty simple


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## rcwtom

Hi guys

Sorry to jump into your thread un-invited. Just wanted to show off my M3.

I've had it for about 5 years. Earlier this year I contacted Frank and he made a few modifications for me.



















Cheers

Richard


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## 4085

Hey Richard, the more the merrier! Would you like officially to be known as Number Seven. If so, please tell us a little more about you and your coffee. Your M3 looks stunning by the way!

regards

Number Five


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## rcwtom

Number Seven sounds good thanks.

I'm from NZ. As you may know we are very into our coffee. Started with Nespresso, then moved onto a PID modified Silvia. Then made the jump to a paddle GS3 and M3 about 5 years ago. Been learning and trying to perfect my techniques since. At the moment I'm using Workshop Cult of Done beans.

Got in touch with Frank earlier this year after seeing his posts on Home Barista. Had some alignment issues after cleaning the m3. He looked into it and after a bit of discussion we decided on a lot of mods. Frank can provide details.

Cheers

Number Seven


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## DavidBondy

Richard, a warm welcome from me also. I think that the GS/3 and M3 go together so well - although my M3 is on the other side!

Nice to see more examples of Frank's work!

David (Number Four)


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## rcwtom

Thanks David

I'm very happy with Franks work. It's pretty much future proofed my M3. I don't even need to open it to clean the burrs anymore. Also no retention of grinds within the system. Only thing I'm playing with is distribution into the basket. I've started doing WDT with a tooth pick. Seems to help even out my extraction.

Richard (Seven)


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## DavidBondy

rcwtom said:


> Thanks David
> 
> I'm very happy with Franks work. It's pretty much future proofed my M3. I don't even need to open it to clean the burrs anymore. Also no retention of grinds within the system. Only thing I'm playing with is distribution into the basket. I've started doing WDT with a tooth pick. Seems to help even out my extraction.


Would you mind summarising what work you got Frank to do. I assume the "basic" service of new bearings and etching the middle plate etc. Did you also go for the extension piece - I think it looks like you did. Anything else?

Number Four


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## Terranova

DavidBondy said:


> Would you mind summarising what work you got Frank to do. I assume the "basic" service of new bearings and etching the middle plate etc. Did you also go for the extension piece - I think it looks like you did. Anything else?


There is no spacer (extension) fitted, Richard is only using naked PF's so there is no need to protect the base, he got a Titanium Grade 5 shaft + Ti burr mount. SKF premium bearings, his controller got some new electric parts, the burrs were lowered by 3mm.

The funnels are made of stainless steel (lower funnel) and the upper funnel is made of a 42crmo4 steel, polished and PVD / TiN coated (titannitrid) the upper diameter is a bit bigger to get this trumpet shape.

Lower funnel got a bigger lower diameter.

The roman numbers are CNC milled inside the middle plate.

Richards M3 was a nightmare and you cannot compare it with a good running M3 like most of you guys own.

The run out of the shaft was a massive 0,3mm.






The lower funnel was totally scratched inside because there was no way to adjust the wiper, (because of the run out) so the issue had to get fixed where it was and not just by changing the wiper which is not a real solution.


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## DavidBondy

Thank you Frank ... it looks amazing! Each one that you work on is so different. It must have been a nightmare shipping too and from New Zealand. At least I am only a few hours away!


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## Terranova

DavidBondy said:


> It must have been a nightmare shipping too and from New Zealand. At least I am only a few hours away!


Nr. 7 works in London, so shipping was no problem


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## rcwtom

Thanks for the reply Frank. You are so much better qualified at describing the mods than myself. I just agreed with your suggestions.

There are a few guys that no longer have M3's curious to know what they have moved onto and why?


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## DavidBondy

rcwtom said:


> There are a few guys that no longer have M3's curious to know what they have moved onto and why?


I don't think there are that many. I only know of one here (Ron (Number Two)) who sold his to CoffeeChap (Number Three). They seem to be keepers here - although we do have a very small sample! Myself and Number Five only received ours last week so we are still in the novelty phase! I have not had my GS3 for long either. I bought that from Eric (Number One) who still has his M3. I have had to consciously stop myself drinking too much coffee because the combination is such a joy to use!

Number Four


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## ronsil

Moved from my well loved M3 to an EK43.

From time to time I need to produce 15-20 espresso based milk drinks.

Managed with the M3 for 6/7 years or so but the EK I found so much faster. Would never have changed but the EK took a third off my production time for this task.

Number Two


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## Gangstarrrrr

The spindle run out issue still puts me off a little. Frank, has the issue largely been solved by VL? Or do you still see plenty of examples of run out.


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## Terranova

Gangstarrrrr said:


> The spindle run out issue still puts me off a little. Frank, has the issue largely been solved by VL? Or do you still see plenty of examples of run out.


If you can get one from the US without paying tax and shipping, I will buy it of you for the price you have paid.

So there is no risk for you, if you don't like the grinder, I have it.

The shaft is much tighter in the new ones, I don't know if the run out is less, I only get the ones which are not so good, otherwise it stays with happy users.


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## Gangstarrrrr

Terranova said:


> If you can get one from the US without paying tax and shipping, I will buy it of you for the price you have paid.
> 
> So there is no risk for you, if you don't like the grinder, I have it.
> 
> The shaft is much tighter in the new ones, I don't know if the run out is less, I only get the ones which are not so good, otherwise it stays with happy users.


Thank you, something to bear in mind when I next go over.


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## Viernes

dfk41 said:


> Number 6, can we tempt you to post some photos and information about the things Frank has done to your M3.


Sure.


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## garydyke1

Sick!


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## 4085

Cheers number six......there is no point in saying anything as you will have heard it before! Someone pass me a tissue as I am dribbling


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## Gangstarrrrr

Why are there so many wires in the background? Are you having Ethernet retrofitted?


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## charris

If Frank does not mind I can post more pics of his work on some crazy M3. When I get mine it will go to him.


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## ronsil

A work of art.....Beautiful:angel:

Number Two


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## Wobin19

Mine is on order so I might be number 8 or is it 9??


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## 4085

Wobin, number eight is the next slot......great to have another forum member on board (nearly!)


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## DavidBondy

Wobin19 said:


> Mine is on order so I might be number 8 or is it 9??


Glad you finally took the plunge, Number 8!


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## rcwtom

Frank and No 6, what do the extra knob and button near the bottom of the grinder do?

Number 7


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## Wobin19

I have been umming and arring for ages over grinders I blew my budget by a factor of 2 in the end because I could not make compromises on Faff or size or retention blah blah.For me it was between the M3 or the HG1 in the end. Also my middle name is David!


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## Terranova

rcwtom said:


> Frank and No 6, what do the extra knob and button near the bottom of the grinder do?


On the right side there is the on / off switch from a yacht, brass and nickel plated and on the front there is a precision potentiometer to change the grind speed.

A new motor was fitted (3 times the torque) with SKF bearings to make this possible.

This is how it sounds like: 




and this is how it looks like from the inside










and this is how the grinder looked like before we changed the transmission and before the 2nd modification of the upper funnel to get a flange on top inside a press fitting to reduce popcorning.










The upper funnel has a long history, it got 24k gold plated for someone else, at the end I found out that it wasn't polished good enough, so I brought the funnel to a surface company to get it polished again.

Unfortunately they polished it way to aggressive, or lets say the plating wasn't thick enough, so it came of and we just left the thread gold plated, it fitted in his middle plate by coincidence so we used this one for Nr.6 .

Optional you can use the EK 10 burrs in this grinder (Guatemala Lab, Kenia) but the burr mount needs to get changed, an adapter is needed + the inner conical and wipers are different (EK 10 burrs need to turn anti clockwise) and some wires for the motor have to get changed to make it run anti clockwise.

It's cool to have the possibility but you need some mechanical skills , each burr set incl. adapter requires a calibrating of the whole grinder which is a PITA.

On the rear panel there is a fuse automat from Swiss (10amp) so if a screw or a very hard stone falls inside the burrs, the motor will turn off immediately, you don't need to open the tower to change the fuse, just a push on the fuse automat and it will run again.

If you want to grind other stuff than beans, you can bridge the automat and have another fuse which jumps out at reaching 20 amps.


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## Mrboots2u

I don't mean that to sound sarky , I am genuinely interested . What is actually left of the original grinder ?


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## Terranova

Mrboots2u said:


> I don't mean that to sound sarky , I am genuinely interested . What is actually left of the original grinder ?


I think the base is untouched.


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## Dylan

Terranova said:


> I think the base is untouched.


Your mods make the grinder look, and I'm sure perform, amazingly. But the idea is like buying a brand new car and then replacing the engine and the entire interior, seems like madness.

Still, I have to say I dont think there is another grinder on the planet that looks as good as the ones you modify.


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## 4085

You need to remember, Frank does two types of mods

A) to get the moving parts back to as close to zero tolerance as possible

B) to make it look pretty and achieve the above as well


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## Dylan

Indeed, I recognise they don't quite all go so 'whole hog'.

I am most certainly jealous of the owners of his work however, and of you folks 1-8 with even the 'basic'







model

Edit: Terranova, a future where you join the Versalab team and produce a "Versalab 2" is a nice one to envisage


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## Terranova

D_Evans said:


> But the idea is like buying a brand new car and then replacing the engine and the entire interior, seems like madness.


You are right of course, I don't know how many hours we spent on this one, but with all the parts and also depending on some CNC machining it took ages, CNC companies kind of hate to change all the tools and clamping jaws for machining a single part.

I know that it is hard to believe for most of you, but the main target in these refittings was to get a maximum experience out of it, instead of profit which faded away because of our own mistakes and an unrealistic optimism (isn't optimism mostly unrealistic ?)

So we started to build grinders from scratch without compromise, thinking it would be cheaper, just to find out it will triple the cost of an original VL.

The costs of a proper surface can break the camels back and these pieces are made for some handful of crazy people like us who appreciate to have a grinder for "eternity".

Although I have to say, that a VL will also last forever even in it's original state if you don't mess with it too much.


----------



## Dylan

Terranova said:


> You are right of course, I don't know how many hours we spent on this one, but with all the parts and also depending on some CNC machining it took ages, CNC companies kind of hate to change all the tools and clamping jaws for machining a single part.
> 
> I know that it is hard to believe for most of you, but the main target in these refittings was to get a maximum experience out of it, instead of profit which faded away because of our own mistakes and an unrealistic optimism (isn't optimism mostly unrealistic ?)
> 
> So we started to build grinders from scratch without compromise, thinking it would be cheaper, just to find out it will triple the cost of an original VL.
> 
> The costs of a proper surface can break the camels back and these pieces are made for some handful of crazy people like us who appreciate to have a grinder for "eternity".
> 
> Although I have to say, that a VL will also last forever even in it's original state if you don't mess with it too much.


Unless that original VL happens to be owned by one very unlucky CoffeeChap, in which case it might need a repair or two


----------



## Terranova

D_Evans said:


> Unless that original VL happens to be owned by one very unlucky CoffeeChap, in which case it might need a repair or two


Yes, but he did it for you guys don't forget this.

He was in a hurry to get the parts and get it fixed for the "grinder show down".

Otherwise it would have cost him 20€ or so to get the controller ready.


----------



## Viernes

D_Evans said:


> Your mods make the grinder look, and I'm sure perform, amazingly. But the idea is like buying a brand new car and then replacing the engine and the entire interior, seems like madness.












I realized the original VL motor it's so underpowered than slows down to the half of RPM when grind very light roasted coffee at a fine setting. This may change the granulometry along the grind process. Also with the toothed belt potential slipping problems are totally avoided. The grinder right now is rock-steady and bulletproof.


----------



## Mrboots2u

I like granulometry as a word .....


----------



## charris

David (Bondy),

what mods are you doing to your M3 (in Germany)?


----------



## DavidBondy

charris said:


> what mods are you doing to your M3 (in Germany)?


All will be revealed in good time! Watch this space!


----------



## charris

Trying to decide, do I order a hopper or not?


----------



## 4085

The hopper is not needed, IMHO. The beauty of the Versalab, is that whatever you single dose into it, comes out again. I have not seen the hopper working hands on, but I am not exactly sure how you does what goes into the grinder. Perhaps someone else can explain.


----------



## DavidBondy

dfk41 said:


> The hopper is not needed, IMHO. The beauty of the Versalab, is that whatever you single dose into it, comes out again. I have not seen the hopper working hands on, but I am not exactly sure how you does what goes into the grinder. Perhaps someone else can explain.


There is a sliding "doser" which sits under the hopper. You buy (from VL) the appropriate sized dosing ring (or bushing as VL call it) which sits inside that doser. You push the lever ("delivery bar") back and beans fall from the hopper to fill the dosing ring, when you pull the lever forward the beans fall through a hole in the bottom of the lever into the chute and then into the grinder. It is quite elegant but I think you'd need a few rings for different doses etc. and I, for one, didn't think it was worth all the hassle and expense. To me the best thing about the VL is its tiny footprint so to have one (or even two!) hoppers sitting on top and to the side seemed to negate a lot of that advantage.


----------



## DavecUK

> What Weighs 38 lbs And Fits In Your Hand Luggage?


I knew the answer was on the tip of my tongue...................A 1980s mobile phone!


----------



## Terranova

The dosing is pretty cool, but if you are not sure to buy one, you can always order it later.

Just make sure that they drill the holes and thread in the top plate (each for $50).

Bushings are an extra $180 (6 different sizes)

At the end it is an extra $650 + tax... worth thinking about it.


----------



## DavidBondy

I am bereft! My M3 has been collected by DHL and is now winging (!) its way to Frank. I am now using my (temporary) Pharos although I may just move over to the Rosco instead because the Pharos is such a bugger to get the ground coffee out of. Lots of shaking and fiddling about with coffee going everywhere!


----------



## 4085

Pop to your deli and get them to grind you a weeks worth........just kidding!. You are a man after my own heart mr DB.....if I had a pharos it would just attract dust!


----------



## charris

Ok, I have ordered and paid for mine. Should have it in 2-3 weeks, I hope...


----------



## 4085

Excellent news! I will check back and allocate you a number. In case you have not noticed, we refer to each other by owner number and not name.....just seems like a little fun!

number 5


----------



## 4085

Squadron Members, here is the current list. Up to 9 now!

1 EricC

2 Ronsil

3 CC

4 DavidBondy

5 dfk

6 Viernes

7 rcwtom

8 Wobin

9 charris


----------



## DavidBondy

Surprising actually Mr K. More than I thought .... We will soon qualify to have our own firm section! Perhaps we will have to start a sub-sub-thread for those who have had their M3s modified by Frank!! Just messing ....


----------



## 4085

Has anyone seen these?

http://coffeecatcha.com

I have a friend with one and they are beautifully crafted


----------



## The Systemic Kid

They are pretty expensive when I looked them up.


----------



## DavidBondy

dfk41 said:


> Has anyone seen these?
> 
> http://coffeecatcha.com
> 
> I have a friend with one and they are beautifully crafted


I think that Callum might be able to get you one at a discounted price. I agree with Patrick that they are VERY expensive for what they are (£48 at Coffee Hit)! I bought an Orphan Espresso one in the States and it is very similar (http://www.orphanespresso.com/OE-Aluminum-Portafilter-Dosing-Funnel_p_2415.html) and a huge amount cheaper (about a tenner!). It fits nicely between the PF and the M3!

Number Four


----------



## 4085

I had a play with one on sunday with a chap who uss it at the UKBC. It is absolute quality and really tactile. I have emailed them, but until I get a bottomless, it would not fir in as the gap is very very tight with the VEloce handles!


----------



## jeebsy

A couple of shops I used to go to in London used them, nice bits of kit but very pricey


----------



## charris

dfk41 said:


> Has anyone seen these?
> 
> http://coffeecatcha.com
> 
> I have a friend with one and they are beautifully crafted


I have it and use it for all shots. It makes the process super clean even with the messy mignon and helps a lot with the distribution. I bought it from coffee hit. The only other similar "pro" ones I have seen are the ones from Orphan Espresso. I will try to post a video next weekend.


----------



## charris

I have just checked again the oe ones and they do not have a handle like coffee catch. At least with the mignon and hopper on demand (non timer) grinding you need the handle to keep the device on top of the pf as you press the button otherwise the cc device will just fall.


----------



## DavidBondy

I've used the OE one (without a handle) for about two years now and it has never fallen off the PF (it has a rim which sits inside the PF lip). I used it with a Mazzer Mini and Compak K10 (both on demand) with no issues.

Would number five like to borrow it? I am not using it now my M3 has gone away.


----------



## 4085

Thanks for the kind offer, number 4.

Until the bottomless pf turns up, I would not have enough room as there is very little gap indeed between the bottom of the spout and the floor of the grinder. In any case, the pf holder works quite well as it is but once I get the bottomless, I will rethink it through

Thanks again


----------



## DavidBondy

dfk41 said:


> Thanks for the kind offer, number 4.
> 
> Until the bottomless pf turns up, I would not have enough room as there is very little gap indeed between the bottom of the spout and the floor of the grinder. In any case, the pf holder works quite well as it is but once I get the bottomless, I will rethink it through
> 
> Thanks again


The OE ring takes up almost no space once in situ and I found that, using a double spouted PF with the VL, it allowed me to withdraw the PF without knocking the top of the mound off on the lower funnel as I withdraw it. The ring makes sure that any strawy grounds end up in the PF not on the base of the grinder. Hard to explain and I can't take a photo as the VL is now on its way to Germany!


----------



## Wobin19

David, Was that with or without the PF holder dodah in the M3?


----------



## charris

One more question: Is the pf holder for the L1 the same as the e61?


----------



## 4085

Right, I did not know I could specify an L1 over and E61. I have the same group as the L1 and find thta as the lugs are quite offset, I have to put the handle in at an angle in order to get the clamp to hold the lugs. It works just fine but if there was an L1 option, I would go for it.


----------



## DavidBondy

Wobin19 said:


> David, Was that with or without the PF holder dodah in the M3?


With the portafilter holder for E61.


----------



## DavidBondy

charris said:


> One more question: Is the pf holder for the L1 the same as the e61?


I don't know. I think they're the same. You'll need to drop Laura an email and ask.


----------



## charris

DavidBondy said:


> I don't know. I think they're the same. You'll need to drop Laura an email and ask.


Laura suggested this but i really need to check with somebody that uses both. Coffechap? Anybody else with a VL and L1?


----------



## Terranova

charris said:


> Anybody else with a VL and L1?


My Athena got the same PF like the L1 and it does not work for me.

It is not about the angle, but the vertical distance of the PF holder (forks) which are a bit too wide in distance.

Works perfect with my Slayer or LM but not with the L1 PF. Maybe VL can customize the PF holder.

I had to built a custom PF holder made of carbon adjustable in height and torque all from the inside of the tower.


----------



## charris

Frank, thank you very much for the explanation and pics. I will try to discuss this with Laura and see what they can offer.

Regarding your Slayer is that a 2 group or 1 group machine? Any pics, maybe a new thread?


----------



## 4085

Here's mine


----------



## Terranova

charris said:


> Regarding your Slayer is that a 2 group or 1 group machine? Any pics, maybe a new thread?


It is a 2 group v2.0 with mechanical paddles, I pulled the trigger before they started with reed contacts on the v3.0 making the paddle kind of useless.

Running it in my workshop as my kitchen won't be happy with the wiring of it. (220V 32amp)


----------



## EricC

charris said:


> One more question: Is the pf holder for the L1 the same as the e61?


I found the same as David, with the L1 portafilter ears being offset when fitted into the holder on the M3 it had to be at quite an angle to hold.

When i had my LaSpaziale S1 Vivaldi II with its 53mm portafilter I made up a couple of thin metal strips that i fixed to the holders arms using double sided tape.

It not only held the portafilter securely but also lasted for a year or so before requiring re-fixing.

Number One


----------



## ronsil

Interesting that the 53mm PF Holder on mine only had 1 spring.

I see from Number Five's photo that there are now 2 springs fitted as standard.

Maybe they only put 1 spring with the smaller 53mm. Never a problem with only one anyway.

Number Two


----------



## DavidBondy

I think they added a second spring to all PF holders number two. Not sure when the change happened but number one mentioned it to me.


----------



## EricC

DavidBondy said:


> I think they added a second spring to all PF holders number two. Not sure when the change happened but number one mentioned it to me.


Ron, my PF holder is the standard size one with 75mm between the two arms, hence the requirement for the metal strips to reduce the gap.

David, yes the second spring was only added a couple of years ago, I did enquire at the time however the whole holder would have had to be changed out and since there was nothing wrong with the one i have i didn't bother.


----------



## Orangertange

Just to let you know they have the coffee catchers here at not a bad price at the moment (still expensive for what it is though, but guess I used to think that about coffee grinders









http://www.espressounderground.co.uk/offers.html


----------



## jeebsy

Orangertange said:


> Just to let you know they have the coffee catchers here at not a bad price at the moment (still expensive for what it is though, but guess I used to think that about coffee grinders
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.espressounderground.co.uk/offers.html


That website looks like it's straight out of 1996.


----------



## Orangertange

He think he's in the process of updating, can see his idea, and very helpful guy


----------



## 4085

The one they are selling is a copy and not the genuine article. I had one in my hands a few days ago. If you are going to buy one then you may as well roll the boat out and buy the proper one?


----------



## Orangertange

Really are you sure? says the price is reduced from about the same as coffee hits


----------



## charris

Since we almost have 10 Versalabs here, I think it can be very useful if Frank posts what options he can offer us. No need for prices just pics and various options and an estimate of the time needed for these.


----------



## ronsil

If prices are stated it should be put in the 'For Sale' section.

Careful it does not become advertising as a fee could be payable if that happened.


----------



## charris

As mentioned no prices to be discussed.


----------



## charris

Update on the L1 pf holder: Laura informed me that they have emailed Londinium. I hope something good with not much delay comes out of this


----------



## Orangertange

Just one more quick question, if I now someone who live's in the states (actually Colorado) and the were to buy it and send it as a gift, would I still get taxed on it,?


----------



## jeebsy

Just get them to put the value as £5 or something. Gifts do still get taxed IIRC


----------



## DavidBondy

jeebsy said:


> Just get them to put the value as £5 or something. Gifts do still get taxed IIRC


That is of course true BUT the liability of the carrier for lost, stolen or damaged goods is the amount declared on the customs form. So you carry all the liability. This is why reputable people like Versalab and Portaspresso amongst others will only declare the full value.

Also, I don't recall the rules for CO but most states have sales tax for intra-state sales and some also for inter-state sales.

Personally, I'd rather be pukka and pay the £300 tax. It also means that if my grinder gets stopped on the way back from Germany, I can prove the legitimacy of it's being in the United Kingdom.

Number Four


----------



## jeebsy

I thought we were still talking about funnels for some reason.

Wouldn't be so sure about sending such an expensive grinder with a low value.


----------



## 4085

Back onto other matters! I have been looking into those wood rings to stop popcorning. I had one of those cheap tamper stands costing £6 or so, but cannot remember where from now. My neighbour drilled a hole in the middle then took it out to the edge. The result is it fits over the bowl and fits quite well. This is a prototype but it certainly gives food for thought.


----------



## DavidBondy

You should get him to cut it into three or four slices and sell them!!


----------



## DavidBondy

jeebsy said:


> I thought we were still talking about funnels for some reason.
> 
> Wouldn't be so sure about sending such an expensive grinder with a low value.


Sorry. I thought we'd got back onto grinders - especially with the Colorado connection. Please ignore my post.

Number Four


----------



## Orangertange

I was asking about grinder , sorry to knock the thread off thread


----------



## charris

Just an update: Laura is working with Reiss in order to design a pf holder for the L1.


----------



## 4085

I find on mine, (the Veloce uses the same group as the L1), that you can get the pf to sit nicely, albeit at an angle as opposed to being straight on. Once you get used to it, it is not a problem at all and does not make the grinding any more difficult to attach or release.


----------



## DavidBondy

I am not at all sure what Laura / Versalab can do about the PF holder. It is, after all, just a sprung flap and I fail to understand what they can do with respect to the location of the lugs on the L1 PF! Just my 2p!


----------



## 4085

Agree Number 4.....it matters not a jot. As stated, and I will photo mine later on, it just means you have to twist the pf around so that both lugs catch


----------



## ronsil

Sent to the 'For Sale' area David. Goodbye Number Five

I wonder why I knew that was going to happen.

So back to the K10 for a bit then:time-out:

BTW - good luck with the sale


----------



## Wobin19

Number 8 just checking in to say my M3 is on route. So who's the new number 5.1 going to be...?


----------



## DavidBondy

In accordance with current practice, Number Five retains his number.

Number two sold his M3 to number three but both have numbers so the new owner of number five's M3 will just take the next one - which I expect to be number nine!


----------



## DavidBondy

Great news Rob!

If you have FedEx asking you for EIRO details then PM me. I had a bit of an issue with it whereas number five didn't!!

David


----------



## charris

DavidBondy said:


> In accordance with current practice, Number Five retains his number.
> 
> Number two sold his M3 to number three but both have numbers so the new owner of number five's M3 will just take the next one - which I expect to be number nine!


David,

This does no make much sense though because it would be better for the numbering to show how many vls are in the forum and not how many owners and ex-owners. Not that i care or it matters much but since the numbering exists i thought it might be worth mentioning this.


----------



## DavidBondy

charris said:


> David,
> 
> This does no make much sense though because it would be better for the numbering to show how many vls are in the forum and not how many owners and ex-owners. Not that i care or it matters much but since the numbering exists i thought it might be worth mentioning this.


I agree that it doesn't make sense but it is what seems to have become current practice. I believe that the numbers allocated are as follows:

1 - Eric (has M3)

2 - Ron (sold to CC)

3 - CC (has M3)

4 - DB (has M3 being updated at present)

5 - DFK (for sale)

6 - Viernes (has much-updated M3)

7 - Rcwtom (has much-updated M3)

8 - Wobin (M3 on the way)

So, apart from those who have them but have not asked to be placed on the list, there are currently six (if you include Wobin19).


----------



## charris

DavidBondy said:


> I agree that it doesn't make sense but it is what seems to have become current practice. I believe that the numbers allocated are as follows:
> 
> 1 - Eric (has M3)
> 
> 2 - Ron (sold to CC)
> 
> 3 - CC (has M3)
> 
> 4 - DB (has M3 being updated at present)
> 
> 5 - DFK (for sale)
> 
> 6 - Viernes (has much-updated M3)
> 
> 7 - Rcwtom (has much-updated M3)
> 
> 8 - Wobin (M3 on the way)
> 
> So, apart from those who have them but have not asked to be placed on the list, there are currently six (if you include Wobin19).


Agreed! By the way I also have one on the way.


----------



## DavidBondy

charris said:


> Agreed! By the way I also have one on the way.


Ahh, OK, direct from VL or are you buying DFK's? Actually I was thinking that perhaps we ought to start a new sub-forum for VL owners / past-owners / prospective owners! Thoughts?


----------



## charris

Mine is direct from VL.

I fully agree about a VL sub-forum, there are 7 that we know of, so soon should be ten or so.


----------



## jeebsy

Start a group. Yes, there's issues with tapatalk but we need fewer sub-forums not more.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Group function really doesnt work...if you want sub forum then ask Glenn.


----------



## ronsil

Group functions are really not user friendly -

We already have groups for DSOL & EK43s but no one uses them


----------



## DavidBondy

I think that once we get to ten confirmed owners who think it is worthwhile to have a sub-forum then I shall ask Glenn - he may well be number ten!


----------



## charris

Or it becomes a joined EK43/VL forum. There is not a lot going on the EK except the very long thread anyway.


----------



## Mrboots2u

ronsil said:


> Group functions are really not user friendly -
> 
> We already have groups for DSOL & EK43s but no one uses them


Yep they don't work with Tapatalk......


----------



## Orangertange

ok couldn't find the vl thread so this one will have to do,

how easy are these to switch between settings and back? would have to sell 2 grinders in order to buy this one soo may be a clincher


----------



## ronsil

Just turn the top funnel


----------



## Orangertange

Get that, what I mean is how easy is it to switch between brew settings, and find espresso again?


----------



## ronsil

There is a numbered flange also a dot on the upper funnel. Keep a note of the numbers for your various types of grind, loosen off the securing knob & turn the top funnel to line the dot up with the number you require. Very 'simples'


----------



## Mrboots2u

Anyone any experience of using it for brewed then. Old addage of grinder for espresso - grinder for brewed .....


----------



## Terranova

Mrboots2u said:


> Anyone any experience of using it for brewed then. Old addage of grinder for espresso - grinder for brewed .....


I think the old "addage" comes from the wastefulnes when changing the grind setting. The Versalab is not worse or better than any other espresso grinder for "brewed". The advantage of "first in first out" is just unbeatable. A grinder / burrs for "brewed", producing a more homogeneous / uniform grind size will be better though.


----------



## Dylan

Terranova said:


> I think the old "addage" comes from the wastefulnes when changing the grind setting. The Versalab is not worse or better than any other espresso grinder for "brewed". The advantage of "first in first out" is just unbeatable. A grinder / burrs for "brewed", producing a more homogeneous / uniform grind size will be better though.


It was my understanding that it was down to uniform particle size as you say, but some grinders do this better at the fine end, and others better at the coarse end.

So for a coarser grind does the VL produce a good uniform particle size or is it not as good as its espresso grind?


----------



## coffeechap

Never used mine for brewed but will give it a go in a few days and report back


----------



## Terranova

D_Evans said:


> It was my understanding that it was down to uniform particle size as you say, but some grinders do this better at the fine end, and others better at the coarse end.


This is already something I doubt. A good aligned espresso grinder will produce the particle size in the bimodule particle size range like the burr set producer made his burrs for. It does not matter if it is in a fine grind range or a coarser range as long as there are no mechanical interventions, in translation tolerances.


D_Evans said:


> So for a coarser grind does the VL produce a good uniform particle size or is it not as good as its espresso grind?


Depends to the alignment / parallel burrs. No I am not saying that only a refitted VL will do so.


----------



## Dylan

Terranova said:


> This is already something I doubt. A good aligned espresso grinder will produce the particle size in the bimodule particle size range like the burr set producer made his burrs for. It does not matter if it is in a fine grind range or a coarser range as long as there are no mechanical interventions, in translation tolerances.Depends to the alignment / parallel burrs. No I am not saying that only a refitted VL will do so.


So if I'm following correctly, a grinder or infact burrs that produce very good uniformity in the espresso range should do so right the way up to brewed grind?

Is it the case generally that espresso grinders produce a somewhat poor uniformity, but this can be improved on the coarse end with specific burr sets?

Like these


----------



## Orangertange

So have any off the 10 had any belt slipping yet, or poorly aligned burr set, or have vl sorted out these problems yet, think I've read pretty much every thread on internet about this thing today


----------



## charris

Orangertange said:


> So have any off the 10 had any belt slipping yet, or poorly aligned burr set, or have vl sorted out these problems yet, think I've read pretty much every thread on internet about this thing today


I think the design has not changed much but Frank surely can expand on this.

There are only 5 VLs here and 2 additional to be delivered soon so a total of 7.


----------



## coffeechap

I get slippage from the belt on mine which is a stock grinder, but i only get it when i feed to many lighter roasted beans in at any given time, franks mods rectify this issue. As far as burr alignment goes, I believe that mine is one ofthe good ones, perhaps frank can comment on any of the ones that he has modified recently


----------



## Orangertange

So if the 60% rule still stands, I make it 2 off the 5 will have slightly slightly skewiff spindles, unless your total meltdown has helped the law off averages,









mm how much does the piece of mind mod cost?


----------



## 4085

I think the issue is more around the fact, that Versalab buy in the components to assemble, and they set an agreed level of tolerance in the machining of these parts. It seems that the tolerances if the part were produced in Germany where Frank is, would be far more tightly controlled. Whether or not in the long term they make any difference o the operation I do not know.

I think some of the very early one had issues, but adjustments have been made by VL. You have to remember there are less than 500 of these in existence so it is a little like comparing a small boutique company with the product of Mahlkonig. Some like the quirkiness and are happy to put up with the odd issue. The belt slipping can be a number of things from what CC mentioned to simply needing to take it off to clean with acetone. As the motor is not very powerful, if you overload the bowl with light beans then it will happen, but if a CC says, you pour the beans in slower, it will not happen. The main thing is always to run the motor before you put the beans in


----------



## 4085

Oranger, unless you are an engineer, or have access to the specialist tools needed to measure shaft alignment, how will you ever know?


----------



## Terranova

A centered running shaft needs less power than a less centered running shaft. The motor is still a bit underpowered and the belt wears. A tooth belt costs 4€ (Viernes Nr. 7 or so got one) I use to mount a bigger transmission wheel with a 1mm+ diameter for having more tension. The shafts are much better since Nr. 380 or so, the inner conical still has a run out on most M3´s I have seen and also the burr mount still sucks big time. This one has been built this year. 



 The run out is 0,8mm. @ cc if you open the screw on top of the shaft / transmission wheel and open the wiper screw, the shaft will fall out. The newer M3´s got a shaft inside a snug fit / press fitting which needs a hammer to get them out.


----------



## Terranova

This may explain the importance of the inner conical and why it is so important that this single part needs to be 100% accurate. Both surfaces need to be 100% flat, otherwise it makes no sense having a shaft without run out.


----------



## Orangertange

dfk41 said:


> Oranger, unless you are an engineer, or have access to the specialist tools needed to measure shaft alignment, how will you ever know?


I know, that's why I called it the piece of mind mod

Guess the thing is if I'm spending 1.5k + on a grinder I'm not looking for quirkiness, I expect precision engineering,

Yours is at a really good price dfk and wouldn't try an barter you down any lower, ....(well much)









nice pics terranova not quite sure what I'm looking for but . 8mm sounds quite large in coffee terms, especially if it affects particle size


----------



## Orangertange

Anyway on the erdinger now, (proof in a that Germans do things better than the yanks ) so expect me on the for sale thread later,


----------



## 4085

Just for the record, I have no suspicions over mine, for what it's worth! It looks sad and lonely, sitting on the kitchen bench waiting to be cleaned before boxed up!


----------



## Nod

hi all....

today was an exciting day... i received my versalab m3 in the post!! i am delighted. I have bought DFK's machine (no 5) ... I'd love to join this group and any tips gratefully accepted. it is paired with my La Spaz Vivaldi 2 so am following in Ron's footsteps (although with a lot less knowledge!)...


----------



## DavidBondy

Many congrats Nod and welcome to the club number ... errrm ... next!

I'm waiting for mine to come back from Terranova so I know how you been feeling!!


----------



## Nod

Thanks.. Not sure if DFK wants to keep his number or not or whether I inherit it with the grinder...!


----------



## DavidBondy

No. I don't think that the number transfers. Ron sold his to CC and they both have numbers - you need to ask DFK why!!!

So, you'll get a new one!


----------



## 4085

I officially hand the running of this thread over to number 4 (if he should take the responsibility) and would be honoured if Nod replace me at the Versalab high table.......


----------



## Nod

This is exciting...thanks DFK... I feel I am in a v select group! I am now going to embarrass myself though with a v naive question... When I make a grind adjustment to I have the grinder on or off.. Thanks


----------



## ronsil

I always used to make the adjustment with the grinder off.

With it running I always think of the possibility, if you don't hold the top funnel really tight, of the top funnel running back to zero & locking up.

It happened to me once & I had to loosen off with a 'strap wrench'.

Welcome to the new Number Five

Number Two


----------



## Nod

Thanks number 2 ... That makes perfect sense... After having a vario I couldn't believe how easy it was to change the grind to dial in my new bean... Delighted..


----------



## DavidBondy

Number four? Oh bugger! It's me! Thank you dfk! We had an interesting journey together!!


----------



## charris

Nod said:


> Thanks number 2 ... That makes perfect sense... After having a vario I couldn't believe how easy it was to change the grind to dial in my new bean... Delighted..


Nod,

Can you expand more on this? I thought it was very easy to adjust the Vario.


----------



## Nod

charris said:


> Nod,
> 
> Can you expand more on this? I thought it was very easy to adjust the Vario.


Yes... i realise this is a bit misleading. I have actually been very pro the vario which i think, for its level, is a good grinder. It made great coffee with the La Spaz but it was fiddly. You cant really compare the vario and the versalab as they are opposite ends of the grinder market. The vario needs a bit of hands on work to get it going well. A bit of trial and error to get it dialled in for a new bean and it can need adjusting if you make a few coffees (i always thought because of the burrs heating slightly) so compared to the versalab where i loosened the red wheel, moved the grinder slightly to grind finer and instantly noted 3 gr less in my cup after 28seconds - it seemed consistent and easy. Hope this helps... if you want some more vario chat i think you should start a new thread so we dont muddle with versalab content cheers


----------



## Nod

i wanted to check... if you change the grind on the versalab do you grind some waste beans before actually going on to make a shot?


----------



## ronsil

I never did - just made the adjustment.


----------



## Terranova

Nod said:


> i wanted to check... if you change the grind on the versalab do you grind some waste beans before actually going on to make a shot?


That makes no sense on a "first in first out" grinder and this is actually the biggest advantage and the main reason why people chose this grinder.

If you use RDT there will be less retention, the wiper is mostly catching up some grind in the angle.

Another advise: Switch of the motor after grinding without taking out the PF, turn the transmission wheel back by a quarter turn (by hand) switch on the motor again for some sec and then finally take out the PF.

Often the wiper is pushing some grind alongside the lower funnel, this is how you get it out completely.

Otherwise the grinder may "drop an egg" on the base.

Clean the lower funnel with soap and water once a week or so, if you don't it will also retain some grind and in my experience it is the "fines" which often get lost inside the funnel if you don't clean it / not using RTD.

Just watch out that you don't bent the wiper when taking of the lower funnel.

I have many spare wipers, so if you or anyone else needs one, just give a shout and I can send a load to the UK (you just pay for the shipping)


----------



## charris

Nod,

thanks for your post, you have inspired me again on this and I sent an email to Laura to see how my grinder is doing - it should ship next week, hopefully...

Wobin19, have you received yours?


----------



## Wobin19

Not yet - Mine won't be with me until late October now. Nothing to do with VL though.


----------



## Nod

Terranova said:


> That makes no sense on a "first in first out" grinder and this is actually the biggest advantage and the main reason why people chose this grinder.
> 
> If you use RDT there will be less retention, the wiper is mostly catching up some grind in the angle.
> 
> Another advise: Switch of the motor after grinding without taking out the PF, turn the transmission wheel back by a quarter turn (by hand) switch on the motor again for some sec and then finally take out the PF.
> 
> Often the wiper is pushing some grind alongside the lower funnel, this is how you get it out completely.
> 
> Otherwise the grinder may "drop an egg" on the base.
> 
> Clean the lower funnel with soap and water once a week or so, if you don't it will also retain some grind and in my experience it is the "fines" which often get lost inside the funnel if you don't clean it / not using RTD.
> 
> Just watch out that you don't bent the wiper when taking of the lower funnel.
> 
> I have many spare wipers, so if you or anyone else needs one, just give a shout and I can send a load to the UK (you just pay for the shipping)


Thanks for the great information Terranova... Out all day yesterday so no chance to reply... big day for coffee today though. Excuse my ignorance but what does RTD mean... i have googled and the only find was 'ready to drink' which i assume is not right. i will follow your suggestions and thanks for the offer on the wipers. my other issue this morning is pop corning.. DFK gave me a wooden ring to go over the holder but then it makes it hard to add the beans. Are there any suggestions for how to avoid popcorning when single dosing? I assume starting the grinder with the beans in place is a no go (seems pretty clear from the previous posts on this thread)... Made some very nice shots yesterday... i don't think i could really believe there would be such a jump up from a vario, after all they are both grinding beans....


----------



## 4085

turn it on, add the beans in one go, then add the ring!!


----------



## Terranova

RDT / Ross droplet technique means adding 1 or 2 droplets of water to the beans to reduce static and therefore retention.

Versalab is a bit resistent to the bean jumping issue, so you can hold your hand above the funnel like this guy is doing which is the cheapest solution.


----------



## EricC

Terranova said:


> you can hold your hand above the funnel like this guy is doing which is the cheapest solution.


Yes, that's similar to the way i have always done it.


----------



## ronsil

+ 1...I always did it that way...


----------



## DavidBondy

ronsil said:


> + 1...I always did it that way...


+1 from me. I start the motor and slowly pour the beans in through my cupped hand!


----------



## DavidBondy

Here is the latest list of who (I think!) are the Versalab owners (and past owners) on the list:

01 - Eric (M3 owner)

02 - Ron (sold to Coffeechap)

03 - Coffeechap (M3 owner)

04 - DavidBondy (M3 owner but away being updated at present)

05 - DFK (sold to nod)

06 - Viernes (has much-updated M3)

07 - Rcwtom (has much-updated M3)

08 - Wobin (M3 on the way)

09 - charris (M3 on the way)

10 - nod (M3 owner)

Please feel free to argue over this but I thought it was time to record it before I lost track!


----------



## Terranova

DavidBondy said:


> I start the motor and slowly pour the beans in through my cupped hand!


In the future you will have much less popcorning because of the flange on top of your funnel + adjustable popcorn cone on the shaft.

You can also fill in the beans before the motor is running as long as the belt isn't too old.

The shaft can cope with it because of the bigger distance between the 2 bearings.


----------



## Nod

Thanks all - great day of coffee..." the versalab is amazing. Such beautiful fluffy grinds... V easy to change the grind when I changed bean and a big improvement in taste. I have learnt how to put the beans in with DFK's anti popcorning device in place which worked v effectively... Overall I'm delighted..


----------



## Nod

\ said:


> RDT / Ross droplet technique means adding 1 or 2 droplets of water to the beans to reduce static and therefore retention. Versalab is a bit resistent to the bean jumping issue' date=' so you can hold your hand above the funnel like this guy is doing which is the cheapest solution.


Thanks Terranova... A simple solution.. I can't believe versalab query whether there is popcorning... It's pretty evident...!


----------



## AndyS

DavidBondy said:


> Here is the latest list of who (I think!) are the Versalab owners (and past owners) on the list:
> 
> 01 - Eric (M3 owner)
> 
> 02 - Ron (sold to Coffeechap)
> 
> 03 - Coffeechap (M3 owner)
> 
> 04 - DavidBondy (M3 owner but away being updated at present)
> 
> 05 - DFK (sold to nod)
> 
> 06 - Viernes (has much-updated M3)
> 
> 07 - Rcwtom (has much-updated M3)
> 
> 08 - Wobin (M3 on the way)
> 
> 09 - charris (M3 on the way)
> 
> 10 - nod (M3 owner)
> 
> Please feel free to argue over this but I thought it was time to record it before I lost track!


You can put me down as owner of M3 serial number 001.


----------



## DavidBondy

Thank you Andy. Although you have number 001, for the purposes of this forum you will be number 11!


----------



## DavidBondy

Revised list:

01 - Eric (M3 owner)

02 - Ron (sold to Coffeechap)

03 - Coffeechap (M3 owner)

04 - DavidBondy (M3 owner but away being updated at present)

05 - DFK (sold to nod)

06 - Viernes (has much-updated M3)

07 - Rcwtom (has much-updated M3)

08 - Wobin (M3 on the way)

09 - charris (M3 on the way)

10 - nod (M3 owner)

11 - AndyS (M3 owner of M3 001)


----------



## 4085

Andy, the list is not by serial number but by order of purchase of forum members. Number 4 is in charge of allocating numbers, so I am sure he will give you a number. Perhaps he may suggest something like 13(001) to recognise your rank!


----------



## AndyS

dfk41 said:


> Andy, the list is not by serial number but by order of purchase of forum members. Number 4 is in charge of allocating numbers, so I am sure he will give you a number. Perhaps he may suggest something like 13(001) to recognise your rank!


It's fine, my "rank" doesn't matter. If however, you chose to honor me for owning serial #001, I wouldn't be opposed to it....I suggest a lifetime supply of top UK speciality coffees, shipped via weekly air mail. ;-)


----------



## charris

AndyS said:


> It's fine, my "rank" doesn't matter. If however, you chose to honor me for owning serial #001, I wouldn't be opposed to it....I suggest a lifetime supply of top UK speciality coffees, shipped via weekly air mail. ;-)


Andy,

are you still using it? Modified or not? What other grinders are you using, Robur, EK43? Thoughts?


----------



## charris

Just had an email from Laura. Grinder is ready and they will ship soon, hope to have it before the end of next week! I just send an order to Rave so that I am ready - a bit jealous of you guys, I need easily 10 days to get quality beans from the UK....


----------



## EricC

charris said:


> What other grinders are you using, Robur, EK43? Thoughts?


NOT Andy, but i believe Andy uses a Three Phase Robur.


----------



## Nod

hi all

just wondered - has anyone tried brew coffee with the M3 yet... i think CoffeeChap was going to give it a try?

also, if you have... what grind setting did you end up with....

i am using aeropress and kalita wave. The espresso is going amazingly well... the grinds are amazing.... it is like tamping air.... i am now starting to get some of the flavours out that it says on the IMM packaging!


----------



## AndyS

EricC said:


> NOT Andy, but i believe Andy uses a Three Phase Robur.


Sorry charris, I lost track of this thread. Thanks Eric for reminding me.

Yes, I use a three phase Robur and an EK43. The EK gives very clean flavors but one has to run the shot real long, so the mouthfeel suffers. The Robur gives a lower-yielding but heavy-bodied shot, and of course it's not easy to manage its grind retention for home use.

My very early model Versalab doesn't seem to keep the burrs in proper alignment, so grind quality suffers. I guess I'm due to send it in to Frank for refurbishing.


----------



## charris

Mine arrived yesterday. I will scan later all docs that came with it for reference and I will also post them here also.


----------



## DavidBondy

charris said:


> Mine arrived yesterday. I will scan later all docs that came with it for reference and I will also post them here also.
> 
> View attachment 9176


I have already scanned the latest user guide. I do not think that posting them here is worthwhile. If anyone wants a soft copy of the user guide they can pm me.


----------



## charris

Estimated kgs to season the burrs? 0/5/10/15 Kgs?


----------



## Wobin19

Just looking at the coffee Catcha thingies, out of interest is it necessary? When the PF is removed from the holder, do you typically lose some coffee without it? Or is it more about distribution without losing anything? Is it a nice to have or more of a necessity?


----------



## charris

Wobin19 said:


> Just looking at the coffee Catcha thingies, out of interest is it necessary? When the PF is removed from the holder, do you typically lose some coffee without it? Or is it more about distribution without losing anything? Is it a nice to have or more of a necessity?


The coffee catcha cannot be used with the Versalab but it is great with the Mignon (and probably other grinders) because it allows a very clean process and also better distribution. As mentioned though there are cheaper alternatives from Orphan Espresso. With the Mignon I consider it a necessity now.

In my very limited experience so far (15 shots) as you remove the PF on the VL you might loose a tiny amounts of grounds which would fall on the base of the grimder. That said this might be because I ordered an L1 pf holder and I am using a Gaggia at the moment.


----------



## Wobin19

Great you just saved me some cash charris. Thanks!


----------



## charris

Estimated kgs to season the burrs? 0/5/10/15 Kgs?


----------



## DavidBondy

charris said:


> The coffee catcha cannot be used with the Versalab


I disagree, the Coffee Catcha CAN be used with the VL as can the OE Dosing funnel and the (much nicer) ones sold by Tidaka. I found one essential because with a double spoof PF you did not have enough clearance to lower it clear of the bottom funnel and therefore knock the top of the volcano / doughnut onto the base of the grinder. Frank is fitting an extension to mine to life the grinder up higher off the base so that should no longer be a problem!


----------



## DavidBondy

charris said:


> as you remove the PF on the VL you might loose a tiny amounts of grounds which would fall on the base of the grinder.


The fix for this (and this came from Frank!) is to turn the top pulley backwards about a quarter turn after you switch the grinder off and then to pulse the start switch two or three times. The egg (or as Frank calls it "the bollock") will drop neatly onto the pile of grounds and not make a mess!


----------



## Wobin19

DavidBondy said:


> I disagree, the Coffee Catcha CAN be used with the VL as can the OE Dosing funnel and the (much nicer) ones sold by Tidaka. I found one essential because with a double spoof PF you did not have enough clearance to lower it clear of the bottom funnel and therefore knock the top of the volcano / doughnut onto the base of the grinder. Frank is fitting an extension to mine to life the grinder up higher off the base so that should no longer be a problem!


Thanks David - I just checked out the Tidaka site. I see they do different height options. I am guessing the 6 or 10mm would make sense from what you have said about getting a double spout in there. Looks to be 35 Euro delivered so cheaper than the Coffee Catcha.


----------



## Terranova

Yes David, that works good.

Last not least use RDT (Ross droplet technique) 1 or 2 droplets of water will make life much easier.

You never have to clean the grinder again (just some air spray into the lower funnel or burrs from top) as with the help of water the ions will get neutalized perfect.

@ Charris run 1-2 Kg through your grinder and all is fine.

The 68 burrs never needed so much seasoning.

I do it with 200-300g of rice but it can blow up the controller and not only a fuse.

So I better don´t recommend it.

The dosing funnel of Tidaka worksks good with the VL but you might experience that the fines will get stuck at the inside of the dosing funnel.

It might require some redistribution (WDT) for a perfect shot.

Once you get a proper visual extraction, the burrs are seasoned in, if the stream is turning around, it needs some more seasoning (don't know how to say it in proper english)

When seasoning in, do it with a grind setting very close to the zero point.

When you clean the lower funnel inside, do it with soap and water, somehow it is less prone to retention like many other things I have tried.

A mirror polished surface from the inside is also good, but brass won't stay like this for long.


----------



## DavidBondy

Wobin19 said:


> Thanks David - I just checked out the Tidaka site. I see they do different height options. I am guessing the 6 or 10mm would make sense from what you have said about getting a double spout in there. Looks to be 35 Euro delivered so cheaper than the Coffee Catcha.


I wold say to go for the 10mm one. If you're ordering from them, you might also want to look at the AirScape Vacuum Canisters. They are a little cheaper from Tidaka than in the UK - if you're paying postage anyway! Tidaka are extremely fast and deliver in just a couple of days. I am happy to support EU companies rather than buy from the US where I can!


----------



## rcwtom

Hi guys

I'm using the coffee catcha after I've removed the portifilter from the M3. It helps to keep in the grinds when I do WDT. Which I'm using a tooth pick stuck to an old champagne cork. Getting good even extractions with this method.

Richard


----------



## charris

I have been trying today to load a few Kgs of beans through the VL. Not the fastest or easiest job, probably the exact opposite of doing this on a Robur, EK43, e.t.c

























View attachment 9239


----------



## charris

A video that shows very well how the VL grinds and how the "Volcano" forms.


----------



## DavidBondy

Probably weighing a little more than 38lbs due to the additional spacer, but here is my much updated M3 just received this morning from Frank .....









This has exceeded my expectations and I am the happiest person on the forum!

(I am happy to share what Frank has done for me but please do not ask me to go into the financial side - that is and will remain between Frank and myself!)


----------



## jeebsy

Go on then...what did he do?


----------



## DavidBondy

I was more thinking about this being shared by PM but you did ask .....

- The upper funnel was revised by lathe on the inside, to make the flange on top of the funnel fit in the press fitting.

- From the other side of the funnel, two more holes and threads were drilled by CNC, to have another two static wipers neutralising the ions (anti static) reaching a wider range of the grind (on the original machine there was only one static wiper)

- Both funnels were polished and plated to have them food safe and not smelling of brass.

- The flange inside the funnel is made of stainless and polished.

- A new burr mount was made out of Titanium Grade 5 due to run-out in the original burr mount.

- The moving wiper has been made of 1mm thick stainless steel and adjusted, it is a double moving wiper compared to the original and finer.

- A new shaft was made out of 400 series stainless steel, the popcorn cone stainless has been polished and DLC coated it is fitted on the shaft by an O ring and adjustable in height.

- The shaft and the bearings are now inside press fittings and not glued like the original.

- The upper plate was CNC revised and the hole enlarged for the premium SKF bearing, also holes were drilled for the "bearing extension" where the second bearing is inside (inside the "nose")

- The bearing extension was polished and mounted on the upper plate.

- A new transmission wheel was made, the diameter being 1mm larger to have a little bit more tension on the belt (due to the bigger distance of the two SKF bearings the shaft can cope with much more radial force). Transmission wheel was polished and plated to avoid oxydizing of the aluminium due to it being touched more often than most other parts.

- The triangle between the transmission wheels was been brushed.

- The little transmission wheel has been made a bit rougher to avoid a slipping belt in combination with the bigger transmission wheel.

- The inner conical has been revised because of a run out and titancarbonitrid coated.

- The middle plate had Roman numerals CNC milled inside

- A new lock knob has been made of 400 series stainless steel, polished and brushed.

- A spacer to extend the height was milled, polished, hole drilled and threaded for the controller.

- The tower was encapsulated to avoid grind coming inside.

- The whole construction was was assembled and calibrated.

- Frank also included a Titanium Grade 5 dosing funnel highly polished.

Oh, and by the way ... the coffee tastes amazing!


----------



## charris

A lot of mods to say the least.

Mine will fly to Germany soon, I hope!


----------



## Milanski

DavidBondy said:


> I was more thinking about this being shared by PM but you did ask .....
> 
> - The upper funnel was revised by lathe on the inside, to make the flange on top of the funnel fit in the press fitting.
> 
> - From the other side of the funnel, two more holes and threads were drilled by CNC, to have another two static wipers neutralising the ions (anti static) reaching a wider range of the grind (on the original machine there was only one static wiper)
> 
> - Both funnels were polished and plated to have them food safe and not smelling of brass.
> 
> - The flange inside the funnel is made of stainless and polished.
> 
> - A new burr mount was made out of Titanium Grade 5 due to run-out in the original burr mount.
> 
> - The moving wiper has been made of 1mm thick stainless steel and adjusted, it is a double moving wiper compared to the original and finer.
> 
> - A new shaft was made out of 400 series stainless steel, the popcorn cone stainless has been polished and DLC coated it is fitted on the shaft by an O ring and adjustable in height.
> 
> - The shaft and the bearings are now inside press fittings and not glued like the original.
> 
> - The upper plate was CNC revised and the hole enlarged for the premium SKF bearing, also holes were drilled for the "bearing extension" where the second bearing is inside (inside the "nose")
> 
> - The bearing extension was polished and mounted on the upper plate.
> 
> - A new transmission wheel was made, the diameter being 1mm larger to have a little bit more tension on the belt (due to the bigger distance of the two SKF bearings the shaft can cope with much more radial force). Transmission wheel was polished and plated to avoid oxydizing of the aluminium due to it being touched more often than most other parts.
> 
> - The triangle between the transmission wheels was been brushed.
> 
> - The little transmission wheel has been made a bit rougher to avoid a slipping belt in combination with the bigger transmission wheel.
> 
> - The inner conical has been revised because of a run out and titancarbonitrid coated.
> 
> - The middle plate had Roman numerals CNC milled inside
> 
> - A new lock knob has been made of 400 series stainless steel, polished and brushed.
> 
> - A spacer to extend the height was milled, polished, hole drilled and threaded for the controller.
> 
> - The tower was encapsulated to avoid grind coming inside.
> 
> - The whole construction was was assembled and calibrated.
> 
> - Frank also included a Titanium Grade 5 dosing funnel highly polished.
> 
> Oh, and by the way ... the coffee tastes amazing!


*Wow!*...Is this the most customised grinder on the forum now???


----------



## jeebsy

Milanski said:


> *Wow!*...Is this the most customised grinder on the forum now???


I've got a sticker on mine


----------



## DavidBondy

Milanski said:


> *Wow!*...Is this the most customised grinder on the forum now???


I don't think so! I think that there are at least a couple of others with more extensive customisations. Viernes and Rcwtom both have (I believe) more customisations than mine!


----------



## DavidBondy

Time for an update on M3 owners:

01 - Eric (M3 owner)

02 - Ron (sold to Coffeechap)

03 - Coffeechap (M3 owner)

04 - DavidBondy (M3 re-engineered by Terranova)

05 - DFK (sold to nod)

06 - Viernes (M3 re-engineered by Terranova)

07 - Rcwtom (M3 re-engineered by Terranova)

08 - Wobin (M3 owner)

09 - charris (M3 owner)

10 - nod (M3 owner)


----------



## DavidBondy

Time for an update on M3 owners:

01 - Eric (M3 owner)

02 - Ron (sold to Coffeechap)

03 - Coffeechap (M3 owner)

04 - DavidBondy (M3 re-engineered by Terranova)

05 - DFK (sold to nod)

06 - Viernes (M3 re-engineered by Terranova)

07 - Rcwtom (M3 re-engineered by Terranova)

08 - Wobin (M3 owner)

09 - charris (M3 owner)

10 - nod (M3 owner)


----------



## charris

coffeechap said:


> The VL is a great grinder, however the new ones seem to have really crap tolerances on the run out, .7 mm is a joke and should be returned, mine is .07 which is quite good for a VL.


I am almost sure mine is crap, I can not make a decent coffee using it while with the small Mignon it is just fine with the same beans. Will they really accept it back though? How do you prove the run out tolerance so they accept it back?


----------



## Mrboots2u

charris said:


> I am almost sure mine is crap, I can not make a decent coffee using it while with the small Mignon it is just fine with the same beans. Will they really accept it back though? How do you prove the run out tolerance so they accept it back?


How much coffee have you put through it so far?

Define crap? Inconsistent shots , channeling , gushers, chokers


----------



## charris

Mrboots2u said:


> How much coffee have you put through it so far?
> 
> Define crap? Inconsistent shots , channeling , gushers, chokers


2-3kg. All sour or bitter, mostly sour. Not even one good shot. The opposite with the mignon next to it. I have tried many different dosages and 15/18/22g VST baskets. My classic has a pid, new seal, new shower screen and gets flushed with puly weekly so it is not the machine. This leaves tamping but I am still using a 58.3 espro for consistency. Distribution is fine can be seen from the naked pf. Anyway since the shots from the mignon are good then it should be the grinder.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Ok I'm sure your doing this anyway

Stick to one dose

Aim for your preferred brew ratio for the coffee your using

Is it coming out in a time you would expect (25-30)

Is anything weird happening like blonding after 5 seconds ?


----------



## 4085

charris, you need to run the burrs in properly, which to be safe is 10 kilos. The more you use it the better it will get. That said, I sold mine because I did not like the flavour profile it gave with the darker beans I was using. I would not get too hung up on tolerances. Leave that to the engineers to squabble over!


----------



## Dylan

dfk41 said:


> charris, you need to run the burrs in properly, which to be safe is 10 kilos. The more you use it the better it will get. That said, I sold mine because I did not like the flavour profile it gave with the darker beans I was using. I would not get too hung up on tolerances. Leave that to the engineers to squabble over!


Frank would suggest they are the key variable, over burr size, but I expect thats what you were referring to with the engineer comment! But as CC alluded to earlier some of the reported 'tolerances' are just unacceptable as it surely has some affect on the cup.

That said it should obviously be the last thing to worry about after fully seasoning the burrs. amongst other things.

p.s. is there anything wrong with seasoning the VL burrs with rice?


----------



## Nikko

dfk41 said:


> I would not get too hung up on tolerances. Leave that to the engineers to squabble over!


Surely a grinder is all about engineering and tolerances are an important, if not the most important, factor for consistency - more so than the size, shape or speed of rotation of the burrs.


----------



## charris

Mrboots2u said:


> Ok I'm sure your doing this anyway
> 
> Stick to one dose
> 
> Aim for your preferred brew ratio for the coffee your using
> 
> Is it coming out in a time you would expect (25-30)
> 
> Is anything weird happening like blonding after 5 seconds ?


Martin, yes always 25-30s. Brew ratio from 1.6-2. The most weird thing is that the tiger stripping on the VL shots is much much better defined than the shots from the mignon. Also the distribution without doing much extra techniques other than maybe NSEW is miles apart when from the VL. So that leaves grind particle consistency which should be affected by the extreme tolerance.


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## charris

dfk41 said:


> charris, you need to run the burrs in properly, which to be safe is 10 kilos. The more you use it the better it will get. That said, I sold mine because I did not like the flavour profile it gave with the darker beans I was using. I would not get too hung up on tolerances. Leave that to the engineers to squabble over!


I have asked a lot about this and everybody said that 2kg is fine since the burrs are flat. I will grind 2-3kg later today to get it to 5kg to see if something changes.


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## charris

Dylan said:


> p.s. is there anything wrong with seasoning the VL burrs with rice?


Dylan, it is a very weak motor so I am only doing it using coffee. Also I am doing it is small steps so that the motor does not get hot.


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## charris

Nikko said:


> Surely a grinder is all about engineering and tolerances are an important, if not the most important, factor for consistency - more so than the size, shape or speed of rotation of the burrs.


Yes I agree. Good design and engineering is what will give the results. That said I am an engineer so I am a bit biased







.

Something else we have not mentioned is that mine and David's (Bondy) were two of the last ones to leave the factory. I am very interested for him to chime in and inform us about his shots before he sent it to Frank.


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## charris

coffeechap said:


> The VL is a great grinder, however the new ones seem to have really crap tolerances on the run out, .7 mm is a joke and should be returned, mine is .07 which is quite good for a VL.


Dave any tutorial on how to measure the tolerance on mine?


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## Mrboots2u

charris said:


> Yes I agree. Good design and engineering is what will give the results. That said I am an engineer so I am a bit biased
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Something else we have not mentioned is that mine and David's (Bondy) were two of the last ones to leave the factory. I am very interested for him to chime in and inform us about his shots before he sent it to Frank.


Perhaps post it on the versalb thread

You might need to pm Mr Bondy

He's isn't as visible on here as he once was

He is too busy drinking the coffee he makes rather than talk about it


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## Mrboots2u

Bump all posts moved across from conical thread


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## coffeechap

Frank has stated that prior to sorting out his last m3 which I am sure was David's the run off was .7 mm. I believe david is now very satisfied with the shots post frank, but what I don't understand is for a very expensive grinder, the VL should not need any modifying


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## Terranova

I am not sure if this was Davids grinder or of another bloke, (it was a newer version although).

The newer shafts are inside press fittings, but somehow there are other variables and a press fitting is not an all round solution that everything is fine.

I mentioned in a post long ago that a purchase is a gamble, some are ok and others suck.

It often gets misinterpreted and I never said "only a modified grinder runs good".

A technical refitting costs 580€ and everything else is just bling for the kitchen.

If Versalab would be a bit more open minded and less resistant, they could do these steps at production for a $150 more and all is good.


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## coffeechap

It does seem such a shame that they don't care


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## DavidBondy

charris said:


> <snip></snip>
> 
> Something else we have not mentioned is that mine and David's (Bondy) were two of the last ones to leave the factory. I am very interested for him to chime in and inform us about his shots before he sent it to Frank.


I was happy with mine even before I asked Frank to work on it.

Perhaps the difference is that I use (very) dark beans and really, really liked the flavour profile which dfk was less keen on.

The dark beans meant, I believe, that the under-powered motor made little difference.

I was a little unhappy with the blob which always dropped out after you'd stopped it - unless you wound it backwards a ¼ turn then pulsed it a couple of times!

It is a whole lot better now and I am able to pull much longer shots (if I want to).

As Boots said, I consider myself in coffee heaven right now and do not have any plans to change anything!

David (overseas again and with sporadic access at best!)


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## 4085

Nikko said:


> Surely a grinder is all about engineering and tolerances are an important, if not the most important, factor for consistency - more so than the size, shape or speed of rotation of the burrs.


Agree, but the American tolerances which are acceptable in America, are monstrous compared to the German tolerances.


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## Dylan

dfk41 said:


> Agree, but the American tolerances which are acceptable in America, are monstrous compared to the German tolerances.


I knew you would come round, when are you buying it?


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## 4085

I had a VL......kept it a week


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## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> I had a VL......kept it a week


That's quite a long time in dfk world


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## 4085

About average actually......lol


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## DavidBondy

dfk41 said:


> About average actually......lol


And now the GS/3 has (just like the birds) migrated South!!


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## Wobin19

Well I hope I don't have to spend 500 euro to make mine work to an acceptable standard.


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## Terranova

Just got some parts ready for a copper burnished tower in antique stile, it might look sexy like my new Avatar does (and my new tatoo)


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## Nod

Hi all

I have had my M3 for a few months now and it is going very well. I am not sure about my tolerances but for my needs/knowledge it seems great.

i was thinking i ought to have a go at cleaning it. I have taken off the belt and acetoned it but was wondering what people thought about the need to actually take it apart and clean the burrs etc. I know this is explained on the instructions that come with the machine but don't want to risk causing problems if people think it is not necessary. I was thinking of taking off the bottom funnel and cleaning it and i think i have read somewhere you should use a fruit oil to stop retention? i have a bit more coffee dropping out after grinding (retention) than i did initially so suspect i need to do something. I assume grindz is a no no?

cheers


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## Terranova

Just take out the bottom funnel and clean it and the wiper. It is not fruit oil but fruit wax what VL recommends, I have never tried it and I use soap water to clean it. Don´t open anything else and I wouldn´t take out the burrs if not needed. You can use Grindz to clean the burrs if you want. (I never did so) Watch out when you take off the bottom funnel and don´t bent the wiper.


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## Nod

\ said:


> Just take out the bottom funnel and clean it and the wiper. It is not fruit oil but fruit wax what VL recommends' date=' I have never tried it and I use soap water to clean it. Don´t open anything else and I wouldn´t take out the burrs if not needed. You can use Grindz to clean the burrs if you want. (I never did so) Watch out when you take off the bottom funnel and don´t bent the wiper.[/quote']
> 
> Thanks a lot Frank - really appreciate the guidance and it is a relief to know that I don't need to do anything significant and potentially break the grinder! Cheers


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## Nod

Anyone else had a go at brew coffee with the m3. It seems to work well. I am grinding at about 7-8 on the scale for Aeropress or Kalita wave


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## Terranova

M3 with anti mess drawer, Carbon PF holder and Olympia adapter.


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## Glenn

Nice looking grinder Frank


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## Nod

That looks the bomb Frank - great work!


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## Nod

Nod said:


> Anyone else had a go at brew coffee with the m3. It seems to work well. I am grinding at about 7-8 on the scale for Aeropress or Kalita wave


Bump.... just bumping this... i have tried the m3 for brew coffee but it often seems to taste a bit sludgy. I am not sure if i am imagining it... has anyone else tried/succeeded/failed at using the m3 for brew and is their any reason why it should not work great?


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## Terranova

Sure it works, a rule of thumb: the coarser the grind, the less fines. You should benefit from your alround grinder so go for it.


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## Nod

Hi

i just wondered how everyone tamps with an m3. At the end of grinding you end up with the pronounced 'volcano' as we all know. Do you then just tamp without re-distributing and hope the hole fills or do you do some 'filling' before some kind of North South, East, West types of technique? I use a naked portafilter and seem to be a lot of chanelling... i.e. tiny sprays of coffee fire out of the group onto the machine or me. thanks for any advice.


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## Nod

Terranova said:


> Sure it works, a rule of thumb: the coarser the grind, the less fines. You should benefit from your alround grinder so go for it.


Thanks Frank - realise i forgot to reply. I now have brew equipment for home so will give it more of a try.


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## Wobin19

Well my new VL grinder will at last be with me tomorrow, yippee! Can't wait to get cracking with this. I have a load of beans ready to season the burrs and have a nicely rested delivery of beans from Rave ready and waiting. After a 4 month wait (not related to Versalab) I am seriously EXCITED!


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## Nod

\ said:


> Well my new VL grinder will at last be with me tomorrow' date=' yippee! Can't wait to get cracking with this. I have a load of beans ready to season the burrs and have a nicely rested delivery of beans from Rave ready and waiting. After a 4 month wait (not related to Versalab) I am seriously EXCITED![/quote']
> 
> You have been super patient so will get your just rewards!! Very exciting... What volume of beans are you going to use to season the burrs?


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## Wobin19

Well I have 1.5 Kg to wizz up to start. Not sure if that will be enough to do the job completely but hopefully will help. I will obviously give it a go without seasoning as i have no more patience left.


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## Wobin19

Doh! Only got one box of two and the second box contains the power lead, the PF Holder and all the spares. Grinder looks good, but don't have a spare lead. Silly question probably, but I saw there was a note in with the grinder paperwork which said the unit had been changed for local voltage, but plug will need re-wiring. Sounds simple enough... It looks like a fairly standard kettle connector to me, so if the second box does not turn up soon, I guess I can just get one locally. I will get there soon!


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## charris

The kettle connector is usually know as IEC and it is very easy to buy one.


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## Wobin19

Just got the second box and now have the spares and the power lead. I also ordered a PF holder but it's not been sent. I paid for it for sure. I have of course been in touch with VL who I hope will send quickly. Anyone using an M3 without this bit?


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## Terranova

You have ordered a Versalab and it came without plug and spares, then the 2nd box came 4 days later but there is no PF holder which you have paid for is that right ? The chances are good that the new PF holder doesn´t fit inside the screws, so they have to send you the complete front plate. If the estimated waiting time will be long then I can lend you one of mine. (you pay for the shipping) grinding without PF holder is a pain.


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## Wobin19

Terranova that's really good of you thanks. VL have responded really well and are shipping immediately so should be sorted soon.


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## Wobin19

Here it is at last! Today I ran 1.5Kg of beans through to season the burrs. Just looking at what came out from the start, i was impressed. Fluffy and no sign of clumps. It munched through them in no time. I gave it a rest every few minutes, but probably didn't need to. I made a quick brew but did not really give a lot of effort to dial in. It was too tight but when eventually the brew started, it was a lovely looking pour. Totally over extracted though. It was too late for me for coffee so can't wait to get back on it tomorrow! First signs are brilliant. Here is a pic or two:









As Terranova mentioned its a bit awkward without the Portafilter holder, but that should be with me in a week or to. I am sure I will manage


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## Wobin19

I have one thing to say after this mornings experience with the M3.

*"Surely this is cheating!" *









I am not exaggerating when I say this, but once dialled in which was easy, I have had nothing but consistently beautiful central pours from the bottomless PF. Grind into the PF, even out the grinds in the PF to fill the crater, straight light tamp and boom. Rather faster than the Super Jolly single dose faff, which is exactly what I hoped I had paid for.

Most importantly, the Coffee is tasting awesome. Really smooth with a big body, no bitterness lovely round chocolate sweet smooth brew from the indian Monsooned Malabar from Rave. My wife asked what coffee it was in her flat white and she was surprised when i said the same as we have been drinking for a week.

Thanks to all for brilliant advise provided on here. Yet more proof that the grinder really is king.


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## ronsil

....and thus, barring you dropping the M3, it will remain for many years to come.

Enjoy it


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## Glenn

Great to hear you're loving the grinder

And you managed to get one before the price rise at the end of this month too


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## paul_w

I ordered an M3 today to beat the price rise at the end of the month. Laura told me approx 1 month for delivery here to the UK. Can't wait to pair this with my new Izzo Alex Duetto IV


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## Wobin19

Took delivery of the missing PF holder today. It has not come with any mounting bolts







. Anyone know what I need? The hole spacing matches the front plate so thats good! Hopefully something standard that I can source locally?


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## Terranova

Man this was really unlucky and so typically Versalab, but they are giving their best they can and at least they are friendly. The screws are 5/32 (imperial) if you don´t get them, I can send you 2 of them on Monday. If the screw size is different to your threads then I can give you a front plate , you just have to check if the distance between the screws for the PF holder is the same. (you just pay for the shipping)


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## Wobin19

Thank you again Terranova. I will see if I can get some bolts locally. Are they standard black Allen key type dome head or cap head bolts ? Do you know the length ? Very short I guess.


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## Nod

Hey wobin. I have been slow to reply but I loved your first excited post after getting the m3. It made me love mine even more. It makes making coffee so easy and is just an amazing price of kit and is an all round joy


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## Terranova

They are standard Allen key, check the thickness of the PF holder and add 5mm. If they are longer that´s also fine, there is enough space inside the tower.


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## Wobin19

VL have advised they are 1/4-20 x 7/8 black socket cap screws. I was unable to find these locally but VL will send me some.

To be clear, the initial delivery issue / delay was not related to VL and neither was the separate receipt of two boxes. Only slip ups have been the missing PF and then then the missing bolts when they sent it. They are very quick to resolve things, so that's great, and as Terranova said, they are very friendly. No complaints here.

I am well pleased still and and can use the grinder as is for now. It will be better with the PF holder, buts its really not much of a burden!

Cheers all.


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## paul_w

UPS tells me that my new Versalab M3 is due for delivery before end of day tomorrow, so I'm like a kid in a sweet shop right now!

However can somebody please tell me what the purpose of 'seasoning the burrs' is on a new grinder such as this, is this done to 'run in' the burrs in a mechanical sense and therefore give a more consistent grind, or is it done to remove any metallic flavours caused by the use of such a new machine? I see lots of references to 'seasoning the burrs' on these forums, but I don't really understand what the reasoning is behind it.

Is it going to be a good idea for me to pick up a few bags of supermarket beans just to run through the grinder before I introduce any quality beans and actually brew some coffee?


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## 4085

paul_w said:


> UPS tells me that my new Versalab M3 is due for delivery before end of day tomorrow, so I'm like a kid in a sweet shop right now!
> 
> However can somebody please tell me what the purpose of 'seasoning the burrs' is on a new grinder such as this, is this done to 'run in' the burrs in a mechanical sense and therefore give a more consistent grind, or is it done to remove any metallic flavours caused by the use of such a new machine? I see lots of references to 'seasoning the burrs' on these forums, but I don't really understand what the reasoning is behind it.
> 
> Is it going to be a good idea for me to pick up a few bags of supermarket beans just to run through the grinder before I introduce any quality beans and actually brew some coffee?


Seasoning the burrs is all the above. In a nutshell, until the burrs are seasoned you will not get the best flavour, taste and repeatable results, a bit like a Yorkshire pudding tin! The burrs will benefit from 3 or 4 kilos of beans through but it all depends on your taste buds! Do not let it spoil your machine but if you can get some beans through her, you will taste the benefit


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## Nod

I agree.. By far the best thing to do is find a local roaster - if one around - and buy/get given stale or a faulty roast batch. I heard more like 10kg is what u need to season the burrs. Or contact one of the roasters on this forum and find out how much to send u a load of duff beans... Frank (terra nova) will probably advise on correct amount for seasoning


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## Wobin19

I put an initial 1.5 kg of stale beans from a roaster through my M3 and have had very consistent results since.


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## Wobin19

I have an issue with my PF Holder. The PF turns whilst grinding. Its like there is not enough tension in the springs. Any one else experienced this? I am wondering if the holes in the back plate are drilled slightly too low so the clamp is not as effective as is could be... VL say they have never seen this before and suggested putting some tape on the forks. Not an ideal solution on my lovely new grinder... Any thoughts folks?


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## Terranova

If the PF turns clockwise during grinding it has nothing to with do with the screws of the PF holder, nor with the strength of the PF holder springs.

One reason can be that the lower funnel is not tight enough inside the transition fit and the wiper is touching the inside walls of the lower funnel. (you could hear it)

Check if you can easy turn the lower funnel in any direction to find out if it is in place when both screws holding the washers of the lower funnel. (it should not move)

Another reason can be, the wiper is touching a part of the PF.

Have a look if the lower funnel is also moving when the PF is moving during grinding.


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## Wobin19

Thanks Terranova, I will check tonight and report back.


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## Wobin19

Sorry for late reply, I have been really busy following a house move. The lower funnel seems firmly in place and does not move when grinding. I can not hear anything to indicate the wiper is making contact either. Maybe the wiper is not correctly positioned and as you say is making contact. I have a spare wiper I can try. Any tips on fitting it?


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## Terranova

Never change a running team.

Don't risk anything and try some speaker pucks under the base, maybe the moving PF is because of vibrations from grinding.

It also reduces the noise.


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## Wobin19

Good point, it seems to be grinding great, so reluctant to use the spare if not necessary. Just found some sorbothane adhesive pucks 20 x 6.35 mm which look ideal eBay. Thanks I will let you know if it works.


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## DavidBondy

Not sure if this helps but I always use my M3 with a dosing ring (supplied by Frank!) and I have not experienced any appreciable twisting of the PF. Perhaps that is having the effect of increasing the spring pressure. If I don't use the ring then I always get a pile of grounds on the grinder base - this is because I usually use a LM stainless steel dual spouted PF and do not have the clearance.

David


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## @3aan

My Versalab M3, with several upgrades by Terranova









Probably the Versalab goes from next time stay at home because the Versalab is fairly slow (Perfect Grind) 27 seconds for 19 to 20 grams,

There is yet again a Mahlkönig K30 Vario in Coffee trailer with new grinders, only 5 seconds for the same grinds.


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## Wobin19

Terranova said:


> Never change a running team.
> 
> Don't risk anything and try some speaker pucks under the base, maybe the moving PF is because of vibrations from grinding.
> 
> It also reduces the noise.


So the pucks have definitely made it quieter but has not resolved the issue unfortunately. I have put some masking tape on the holder which seems and looks sacrilege but it has worked. Not the long term solution though. The dosing ring sound good. Someone on here Bondy?? recommended a German one ages ago but I struggled with the website so have up. They seem very expensive for such a simple device but seems like I need to dust off the wallet again! To be honest though I would not really expect to have to do this stuff with such an expensive bit of kit...coffee still blooming good though it must be said!


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## DavidBondy

I gave the German ring to CoffeeChap. The site's not that hard to use! I use the one that Terranova sent me.

I'm not sure where you're located Wobin - perhaps you could borrow mine!

The problem is that it may not solve your problem!

David


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## Wobin19

I should just buy one. Have you got name of company again is I can't find it. I am in Ferndown Dorset so not close I don't think.


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## jeebsy

Tidaka


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## DavidBondy

As Jeebsy says, it is Tidaka. Here is the link to the dosing rings: http://www.tidaka.net/de/Trichter.html

David


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## Wobin19

sorted for a dosing ring - thank you Terranova.


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## Wobin19

Got the dosing ring yesterday and it works a a treat and of no longer turns with the extra tension with springs in more stretched position. Also the ring prevents the mound getting knocked off with clumsy removal of the PF from the grinder. Excellent! Thanks again all for top tips and especially Terranova for sending the Ringy thingy.


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## DavidBondy

Told ya!


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