# bean to cup v espresso machine



## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

Hi, so im new to the forum and after living in brasil for a few years im back in the uk.

when i previously lived in the uk i had a gaggia titanium and loved it. now im trying to decide between another bean to cup or should espresso machine. i have search the web and this forum to try and decide but there doesnt appear to be a good comparison.

while i drink espresso`s, i also like americano with milk, lattes etc and the wife will drink mochas. therefore, would a bean to cup be a better idea and can all these be made easily with an espresso machine also?


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

Welcome to the Forum.

A bean to cup machine is a compromise. Whilst it will produce a drinkable coffee, because there is so very little control, you will never experience a real espresso. You trade a full flavour espresso based coffee against convenience.

If you wish to experience real espresso taste you do need an espresso machine. Most have a steam arm & will produce all the drinks you mention. That does entail taking the time to learn the process but the end product will be worth the effort. Should you decide to take this route there is much information & help available here.


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

What sort of budget are you considering? this could help us give some suggestions on equipment

If you are prepared to get onto the espresso learning curve, the route Ron advises is the way to go. The budget would have to cover an espresso machine, grinder and decent tamper as well as a milk steaming jug. The end result will be more satisfying in terms of the quality of espresso and the skills you would develop.

Don


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

cheers guys.

i think around the 800 mark would get me a fairly good bean to cup and from what i can tell, i would at least get an average espresso machine and grinder for that. didnt realise i needed a tamper too. i assumed this would be included. but this will not be expensive right and neither will be the milk jug.

im currently leaning towards an espresso machine but im a little concerned about the learning curve given how easy a bean to cup machine is


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I was originally going to go for a B2C machine as second hand you could get them for a good price and I had also used semi-decent B2C machines in a commercial environment.

If you end up going for a grinder and espresso machine expect to start yourself off down the road of attaining really great tasting coffee. When I started I just wanted to be able to make a better latte than starbucks, but now (even on my very poor cubika espresso machine) I am getting espresso good enough that I am starting to like the taste more and more.

A lot of people on these forums started off dabbling and end up obsessing more than a bit about the next best way to make their coffee better, right down to how big/well spaced the holes are in the filter baskets.

£800 will buy you a really good espresso machine (like a fracino cerub or piccino £600-£700) and a good grinder (like the iberital mc2 £100-£150) with just enough for a decent starting tamper (£25ish) and a milk jug (£15) left over.

It will not be nearly as convenient as a B2C but it will make much better coffee, its always nice to have friends come over who only ever go to starbucks and tell you your coffee is the best they ever tasted, even when its only mediocre by many standards









Edit:

Oh, just wanted to add a bit about your concern for the learning curve. Yea, you want to set aside the best part of a whole afternoon+evening, and probably a good 500g of beans learning the ins and outs of how fine the grind should be, the weight that should go into the basket, how hard to tamp, what the espresso should look like and how long it should take to pour and if your a milk guy then how to steam the milk so it is lovely and light.

Honestly if you have never used an espresso machine before there is a lot of learning to do, and if you dont think you will enjoy getting there maybe you should stick with convenience but the coffee will never be as good. If you decide to go the espresso machine route the good news is this forum is simply fantastic to at first hold your hand and then help you find your feet and walk the metaphorical walk yourself. One of the graces of this forum is that they always help out, and never fob you off to the search engine to find your answer, even if the same thing has been asked many times before.

Very lastly, whichever route you go buy FRESH beans, avoid the supermarket and go to a website like coffeebeanshop.co.uk who roast the day before they post. It is the cheapest and most significant difference you can make to your coffee


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

At one time I would have come down heavily against the B2C, but, in reality, it's horses for courses. Getting really good results from any combo of espresso machine and grinder takes effort and experimentation. I'm am beginning to think that unless someone wants to take a real interest in making very good coffee, then a B2C wouldn't be such a bad idea. Interestingly this was recently voiced in a blog on Londinium Espresso, who sell some high end espresso machines and grinders (but in fairness also sell B2C machines also):

http://londiniumespresso.com/blogs/londinium-espresso-blog/6444034-the-week-finishes-with-a-milestone-being-reached


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## woosh (Aug 21, 2012)

I have a B2C machine and am really happy with my choice.

I often use a stove top espresso maker, my wife and I do not drink that much espresso though, investing in an expensive machine wouldn't have been a good idea for us I think.

I drank two last night though because I spent all night looking for a good online printing service for my daughter's wedding invitations...


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## dobber (Jun 22, 2012)

hey and welcome, we have a bean to cup at work, there alright quick easy and i think better than some vending machines. but when i come home i can have the real mccoy and indulge in true espresso coffee taste, if you will









I think its not too challenging to make all them drinks on a espresso machine as long as you and the machine are up to it, also i have just got some monin dark chocolate sauce which makes the best tasting mocha's I've had to date.


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

if the learning curve will be a number of hours as opposed to a number of weeks than i think it will be worth it.

i guess the only downside will be having to make coffee fro friends instead of them just button pressing themselves.

so i believe i have been convinced to get an espresso machine instead of b2c but how much of a difference would i notice between a fracino cerub at around 650 compared to a Gaggia Classic at around 200. is it really worth the difference? would a great grinder compensate?


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

Blackstone said:


> if the learning curve will be a number of hours as opposed to a number of weeks than i think it will be worth it.


More months than hours. Not wanting to scare you off or anything but I don't think it should be downplayed how difficult it is to make great espresso based drinks. Learning is fun though; think of it as a hobby. I've nothing against b2c machines either. Sure they're never going to make as good a drink as a well operated espresso machine, but they're a butt load easier to use.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Indeed, you should be able to learn how to pull a shot in the space of a couple of days, but perfecting that shot may take much longer.

The more expensive machines are better for making multiple drinks, as they have larger reservoir, they are also better for steaming more than a cup or two of milk as they have more steam reserve. They also have a more stable temperature which means a better tasting shot.

As you just approaching this, you may be best set up with a Classic(a great beginners machine) and a good grinder. Save the extra money and if you really get into your espresso you can upgrade later.

Do heed the advice that you may find it frustrating and slow to begin with learning how to get good coffee from your machine. There are many variables which you have to experiment with.

Consider how important convenience is to you, if you would prefer to be able to hit a button and have your friends do the same B2C may still be the best option.

If convenience and ease of use is your main priority, go B2C

If quality of the drink you are making is your priority, go Espresso machine


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

> so i believe i have been convinced to get an espresso machine instead of b2c but how much of a difference would i notice between a fracino cerub at around 650 compared to a Gaggia Classic at around 200. is it really worth the difference? would a great grinder compensate?


Firstly, a Fracino will be a lot more convenient because you don't have to wait for the boiler to heat up after brewing coffee to steam milk - the Fracino machines can deliver coffee and steam milk at the same time, either because they have twin boilers (like the Piccino) or a heat exchanger (the Cherub). The design also leads to greater temperature stability, which is the great bugbear of domestic espresso machines. Commercial machines are designed to be left on all day and have a huge amount of metal in them which means the temperature stays very constant. On a machine like a Classic the small boiler will fluctuate greatly in temperature (getting very hot after you have steamed milk) so the quality of your shots will vary greatly. You can (partly) overcome this by skill and practice ('temperature surfing') or by installing a PID temperature control. Basically, the more expensive machines make it much easier to get consistent results.

Will you notice the difference? Yes. And the more sophisticated the beans, the more you will notice (traditional very dark Italian style beans are much easier to use because there aren't the range of flavours to extract as there are from more modern lighter roasts which can taste fantastic or really bad depending how they are brewed).

As for a good grinder, the key thing is this will allow you to adjust the grind so you get the right brew time (around 25 seconds). This will depend on the beans and the machines you are using, and brew time and temperature are they most important factors in getting espresso right. Cheap grinders either just don't grind fine enough, or aren't adjustable enough or just grind the beans unevenly meaning you don't extract the best out of them.

I think it is fair to say a lot of people on this site (myself included) are obsessed with coffee and are prepared to spend a huge amount of time and money trying to make the perfect espresso. This is not necessarily a sensible way to live, and I can totally understand people who just want the best coffee than can get in their house with the minimum of fuss.

Bean-to-cup machines can produce a cup of coffee much better than you'll get in most of your local cafés without having to do much more than fill it up with beans and water and empty the grinds. I had a disappointing experience with a DeLonghi B to C machine a couple of years ago but I now realise I didn't know how to set it up - basically the grinder needing adjusting to grind finer (and slow down the brew time), but I was too ignorant to know this. I eventually ended up at the other end of the scale altogether with a very expensive manual lever machine, but I did this because I became fascinated with the whole world of the home barista - if you like, I joined the cult (and it helped destroy a 15 year relationship, but that's another story).

Becoming a coffee geek or a home barista can be a great pleasure but not everyone wants to go down that road. Whatever machine you go for, the end result is just a cup of coffee - right? And there are more important things in life.


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

well guys, these are great comments, suggests, advise. i must admit i was a little concerned asking about b2c on here.

i did spend a lot of time setting my b2c machine up right and to be fair (grind, brew time, temperature), it did make a good cup of coffee. i also used good beans and i dont think it would too be fair fetched to say that it was one of the best cup i could get at the time. one issue was, not being able to use the steamer and make coffee at the same time. while this wasnt a big issue, it was slightly annoying so i think a twin boiler or a heat exchanger is the way forward.

i was almost playing devils advocate with mentioning the gaggia classic as this was quite an extreme difference. but my point/question remains valid and i believe this has been answered and therefore, i need to look into this is more detail.

i guess what i really want is a semi-commercial type espresso machine where the temperature will remain constant, where the machine has a twin boilers or a heat exchanger as the overall goal is a great, consistent coffee with the ability of making drinks such as latte, mocha, amerciano as always as great espressos.


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

After all the advise from you guys, i have complied the following list of machines.

Gaggia Baby Twin

Rancilio Silvia

Fracino Piccino

Fracino My Espresso

Fracino Churb

Fracino Heavenly

All have a twin boiler or a heat exchanger but how could I investigate the temperature stability? Would this just be a matter the more expensive machine would be better with this?

Hopefully I can choose a machine fairly soon and then its onto the grinder


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Blackstone said:


> ...All have a twin boiler or a heat exchanger but how could I investigate the temperature stability? Would this just be a matter the more expensive machine would be better with this?


 No, the Rancilio Silvia, like the Gaggia Classic is a single boiler/dual use machine. It has always been regarded as a rather better machine than the Classic (more solid, better tempertature stability) but the price differential between the two now makes the Silvia seem not such good value for money. I'm not sure what you mean by "Fracino My Espresso" - are you referring to the dealer My Espresso (who seem to have a slightly dubious reputation)? The Cherub and Heavenly are very similar machines in different cases.

I will leave further comments on that list of machines to people here who actually own them.


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

Well I guess I was miss informed on the rancilio and the fracino my espresso is in deed from the name sake online shop. skins like I should be avoiding that place then?

I will check the forum for any reviews.

And what about the baby? Worth looking at?


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

I believe the gaggia baby twin isn't really a true double boiler, it just has a thermoblock for steaming which isn't great. I would be inclined to go for a classic over a baby twin.

A cherub (if you can stretch to it) should be all the machine you ever need.


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

You guys must either be getting a kick back from fracino or their machines are really that good. I guess I'm going to be popping into a john Lewis when I get a chance to check it out


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

You can usually pick up a decent condition second hand gaggia classic for cheap.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

The Fracino machines are not perfect, but in my opinion (I own a Fracino Cherub) offer excellent value for money.

The Cherub and Heavenly are identical machines (almost all the internal parts are the same) except they have different exteriors and the water tank is smaller on the Cherub (3 litres) and the hot water tap is an optional extra on the Heavenly. Both machines use a HX (Heat eXchanger) design which has a single large boiler (2.3 litres) heating water for steaming milk. There is a sealed copper tube running through the boiler that carries the brew water to the group head. The brew water is heated indirectly as it passes through the copper tube inside the steam boiler by the super heated water and steam surrounding the tube. One draw back of HX machines is that if left idle, the water inside the copper tube will be overheated. This is remedied by a short cooling flush to clear the over heated water from the system.

The Piccino is a Dual Boiler machine and has two smaller boilers - one for heating brew water (approx 92 degrees) and one for producing steam for milk (approx 125 degrees). Each boiler is about the size of a coke can so there could be less steam available than the Cherub/Heavenly (depending on how quickly the machine can replenish the steam whilst it is being used) and larger boilers tend to be more thermally stable. The benefit of a double boiler is that no cooling flush is required because there is a second boiler maintaining a volume of water at brew temperature.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Blackstone said:


> You guys must either be getting a kick back from fracino or their machines are really that good. I guess I'm going to be popping into a john Lewis when I get a chance to check it out


 I don't think it is an issue of corruption, just that there is nothing much else at that price point. And they are made in Birmingham by a well established company which makes servicing and getting parts much easier.

Next up would be something like an Expobar or a Rocket but you are now getting into a different price bracket.

I think John Lewis only stock the Fracino online at the moment (and they don't offer the best price either).


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

I know price wise, john Lewis is not great but I was hipping to see a machine before purchasing. is there a shop up in Brum?

With regards to the more expensive machines mentioned, I don't want to go above 800 in total ask they are out of the question.

And I don't want a second hand machine either. I would rather pay a little more for a new one


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Blackstone said:


> I know price wise, john Lewis is not great but I was hipping to see a machine before purchasing. is there a shop up in Brum?


 John Lewis don't have them in the shops, online only - certainly none in the Oxford Street store. I think the Coffee Machine in the Kings Road has them.


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

I saw your earlier post about john Lewis, cheers. I will contract the shop that you have listed though. Thanks again


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

So I have finally decided and purchased a piccino and mc2 grinder. Now I need figure out what extras are needed(to buy now) and what are just useful(to buy later) eg tamper, knock box etc

Any help guys?


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

The essentials (in my opinion) would be a properly fitting tamper, some steaming jugs (just 1 to start with maybe), a blind basket for backflushing, a brush for cleaning the group head (I have a Pallo tool), some cleaning powder (puly caff or similar) and some descaler. A knock box is very convenient but not essential. Some digital scales sensitive to 0.1g are bordering on essential too (they are essential for me!).

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

Ok great. Sounds like I'm going to have quite a long shopping list then.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

If you want to save money - a rubber blanking disc works as wel as a blank basket, brushes are brushes, citric acid is cheap and works fine as a descaler. Digital scales are very cheap new on eBay (you want 300g x .01g). It's hard to get by without a knock box.

You might want to get some coffee cups too...


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Fantastic! Congratulations! We will of course all want to see pictures when you get them!

I will list some of the accessories I think you need below (many will be optional extras or purchases you may want to consider further down the line but I have listed them here for completeness) and some places to purchase them. I am sure others will chip in too:

Small Scales (0.1g precision) - needed for dialling in grinder and measuring dose of ground coffee (perhaps also quantity of espresso produced)

Tamper - the plastic one that is supplied with the machine is as much use as a chocolate hot water bottle. Go for a relatively inexpensive 58mm tamper to start because you may want to get another later if you buy different filter baskets (see below)

Timer - You need to be able to count seconds whilst the shot is pulling to dial in the grinder. If you have a stopwatch on your watch or phone then this will probably be sufficient.

Milk jug(s) - For steaming milk in. You may want to get different sizes for steaming different quantities. Jugs are usually available in 350, 500, 750 and 1000ml sizes. A single 500ml jug should be fine for starters though.

Milk thermometer - for checking the temperature of the milk during steaming. It is possible to do without this and judge the temperature by feel (of how warm the jug is) but you may find the thermometer useful whilst learning.

Tamping mat - a rubber mat to protect your worktop during tamping. Depending upon your worktop you could probably do without this.

Knock Box - by no means essential but useful for expelling spent coffee from the portafilter. Grindenstein are pretty good and relatively inexpensive.

Shot glass - marked at 1 and 2 fl. Oz. Some people use volume as a means of measuring the espresso whilst dialing in the grinder but in my opinion weighing the espresso (using the small scales above) is better and means you do not need this shot glass.

Blank/Blind filter basket - for backflushing (cleaning) the machine. You may have one of these supplied with your machine already so do not need to buy one.

Backflushing detergent - Urnex Cafiza or Puly Caf are both good cleaning solutions. You put a small amount in the blank basket listed above and then switch the brew button on and off several times. You will probably want to do this once a week.

Group Brush - for cleaning old coffee grounds off the shower screen and group gasket. The Pallo Coffee Tool is pretty good and includes a measuring scoop for backflushing detergent.

Filter Baskets - The filter baskets supplied with most machines are rather inconsistent and sometimes poorly made. Some machines even have pressurised filter baskets intended to work with pre-ground coffee. There are lots of aftermarket filter baskets available to fit 58mm portafilters. Many people like the VST/LM Strada baskets which are pricey but precision engineered and are available to suit a variety of different coffee doses from 7g right up to 21g. A number of tamper manufacturers now make specific tampers to perfectly fit these baskets such as Made by Knock, Reg Barber and Pullman. Whilst these baskets are nice and work better than the standard baskets supplied with the machine, you are probably better off buying these later if and when the urge takes you.

Naked/bottomless portafilter - these are portafilters with the spouts and bottom removed exposing the bottom of the filter basket. Really a teaching aid to assist diagnosis of problems during extraction, many people like using them because of they like watching the extraction and/or the extra crema that ends up in the cup. This is something you may want to consider later, if and when the urge takes you.

Grinder cleaner - Urnex Grindz or similar. Putting some throughnyour grinder will clean off any residual coffee oils from the burrs. Many people make do without this and simply open up their grinder and give it a good clean periodically with a brush.

Descaling solution - Citric acid based. You will probably want to descale the machine every 2-6 months depending upon local water and whether any filtration (e.g. Brita) is in use. Check the machine's manual for the manufacturer's recommended frequency and procedure.

Some good places to buy these items are as follows:

Coffeehit

HasBean

Cream Supplies

Happy Donkey

Espresso Underground


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

Well that is one thorough and complete list. I need a bit more time to read in detail and I think I will have many questions. The machine is going to take a few weeks so no rush to get the accessories yet.

And of course pics will follow


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

Finall took delivery at 9.30 tonight. Pics to follow.

Made a few espressos so far but went easy due to the time. 1st cup was very average, came out in about 10 seconds. 2nd cup was about 20 seconds and was much better. Loving the piccino but already realised that the tamper is bad. Waiting for the new one.

More updates after I have had some more use


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Excellent keep us updated, always good to read the experiences of a relative newb with this machine as I may well be investing in the future and love to see how people get on with it


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

Glad your Piccino getting plenty of use already Luke! Looking forward to seeing your pics!!


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

opening of the machine


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

All set and ready to go


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

very 1st effort and cup


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

2nd cup and much better


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

i have been getting regular use out of the piccino for the last 4 days.

its still pulling too quick so i need to look at the grind. im still getting good consistency from it and a much better espresso and americano from it than the local coffee shops.

the machine is so easy to and for now, really easy to maintain. the one issue i have is that i cant swap out the double espresso head for a single or for the blank disk for that matter. the double one appears to be stuck in there


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Great pictures!

The portafilter has a spring that holds the basket in place. Try prising it out with a screw driver/knife - I use a Pallo caffeine wrench.


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

Cheers. I will give it another go. I did try with a knife but didn't want to force it


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Best thing is to put the tip of the blade into the gap and then twist it - the basket should just pop out.


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

done. many thanks.

i guess i just needed the reassurance that i could apply force


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

You are most welcome - I had the same thing myself.


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