# Sage by Heston Blumenthal - the Dual Boiler™ - Q&A



## Glenn

Assuming you have read the official review thread (*here*), this thread is to ask any questions that you have about my experience with the Sage by Heston Blumenthal - the Dual Boiler™ espresso machine which has been supplied to me for review by Sage Appliances

I will do my best to answer any questions that you may have

Ask away









Please Note: A separate thread will be setup for the Sage - the Smart Grinder™ once I have had more time to review it


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## Mrboots2u

Hi here are a few , apologies if you answered these elsewhere or if they are not think of questions you were looking for

Have you played with the slayer function that Dave talked about ? If so worth using or a tech feature to turn heads ?

Yes. This feature is easy to set, and allows you to choose the length and power of the pre-infusion

It is set as default to 7 seconds. Easy to set to 3 or 5 or even 15 seconds

The power adjusts the bar pressure during pre-infusion stage

With a fine grind there was not much of a noticeable difference. Coarsen up and this is more noticeable

Have you tried a Brewtus ? If so how dose it compare price versus performance

Yes, on many occasions

These machines are in the same price bracket

There are more features than on an Expobar Dual Leva

Overall it compares well

Do you think it stacks up for its price as it has come across from the USA at $ to £

I have no comments on this

How does it stack up banging for milk drinks out versus the duetto time wise

The Sage Dual Boiler takes longer to steam the milk to 65c

You can adjust the steam pressure

The finish of the steamed milk is superb. I do rate the steaming ability, even if it does take a little longer

For a new home user this will be a brilliant attribute. Even as you perfect the art of steaming you will still appreciate how good this steam wand is

It is not designed for use in a commercial environment

Glenn's answers in Red


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## garydyke1

How easy is the machine to move around the counter?

The machine is very easy to move around the counter. It sits locked in place, but remove the drip tray and turn a dial and it pops up and can be wheeled about the worktop with ease

Spin the dial the other way and it plonks back down again

This is a nice feature to have

The 13 - 15kg Sage Dual Boiler has this, yet it is a real mission to move an Alex Duetto (at approx. 40kgs)

Does the build feel solid / durable ?

Similar to a toaster

Toughened plastic, with a metal skin

Glenn's answers in Red


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## kikapu

Well from what you have written it all seems to be looking pretty good? The only thing I saw was that you mentioned the fluctuation in pressure during pulling a shot compared to the Alex Duetto, but is this really an issue?

For most people, no

The coarser you go the less of an issue this becomes

A longer pre-infusion also assists in settling the needle movement

Glenn's answers in Red


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## Glenn

Thanks for the questions - please keep them coming - I will answer most of them this evening


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## garydyke1

Whens the raffle for one (just the machine tho) ? ; )

It will depend if an offer to provide one at a discounted rate is forthcoming

Glenn's answers in Red


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## jeebsy

Given this machine's price point means it's competing with some fairly high end machines like the Brewtus, do you think it merits consideration alongside the more traditional E61 based machines for domestic use?

Absolutely. This machine slots nicely in at this price point

There are some good features and a quality finish on this product

Whether you are a first time espresso machine owner or upgrading from a single boiler / HX machine, this machine should be a consideration

Glenn's answers in Red


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## 4085

It would be interesting to know if the suppliers can also quote a price without the white gloves bit. This would have the effect of reducing the price.

I cannot comment on this observation

I do not think this is an entry level machine, (although it might be marketed towards that end) so anyone with a bit of prior knowledge would probably appreciate it turning up in a box, unpacking and getting to know it themselves.

This could easily be both an entry level machine or the next step up for a Gaggia Classic, Rancilio Silvia or Fracino Heavenly owner

The instructions are total quality. Easy to read and understand. The diagrams and workflows are clear and concise

I honestly feel that a price point below £1000 would make this far more attractive package, so it will be interesting to hear the thoughts of the powers to be.

I cannot comment on this observation

Glenn's answers in Red


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## dwalsh1

I'd rather have 6 of his spiced minced pies from waitrose









I cannot comment on this observation as I don't eat those type of mince pies

Answer in red from Glenn


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## Glenn

Q&A Updated. More questions welcomed


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## Mrboots2u

Cheers Glenn , thanks for the timely observations and answers .


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## jeebsy

What's your favourite type of mince pies?

Mince and cheese pies from New Zealand (or from http://www.gourmetpie.co.uk/)


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## Mrboots2u

Mince and cheese that's madness it's like a Heston creation .......,


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## Glenn

Back on topic.

I have just shimmed the grinder and have been playing with pre-infusion

Noticeably better on both fronts

I have so much more range in grinding espresso now

There are quite a number of time+pressure variables to play with


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## shaun1

Glenn. How would you describe the build quality of the smart grinder or will that be part of your ongoing review?

As a Francino Heavenly owner who will be looking to upgrade soon I think the build quality of the the Sage (toaster!) would be enough to make me look elsewhere!

Cheers Shaun.


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## Glenn

I will be adding the reviews of the grinder to the main thread.


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## jeebsy

What advantages do you think a something like a Brewtus would have over this machine in a domestic environment? I can see why you'd take an E61 if you were pumping out a high volume of shots but from my experience with the Sage and your reviews it seems this is more suited to a home environment.


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## coffeechap

Glen based on your experience of both machines, which is better, the brewtus or the sage, ( based on the price that they can be got for so £1050 for the expo) as in my experience you have to go a long way ( r58, Verona, duetto) to beat the brewtus and even then with the rotary variant of the expo the afore mentioned are not much better if at all.


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## Glenn

The Brewtus and the Sage are 2 totally different machines so I won't turn this into a direct comparison

I would advocate getting hands-on time on both if possible

However, I know the Expobar machines are very reliable and easy to service yourself

There is less to go wrong (electronics) in an Expobar

There are more handy features straight out of the box on the Sage Dual Boiler

The size of the bench that the machine will be sat on is likely to be a deciding factor. The Sage Dual Boiler is a wider machine than most I have come across - but not as deep (there is always a trade-off)

For new coffee enthusiasts the Sage Dual Boiler offers great value for what it contains and is as easy to use as a bean to cup once the grind is dialled in

The Expobar (and other traditional lever operated pump coffee machines in this price bracket) offers more of an interactive experience, which you lose with the Sage Dual Boiler

However, if you want to dose by volume, and adjust pressure on the fly then I would challenge you to do that with the Expobar

As I stated at the start - these machines cannot be directly compared

They are for 2 different types of barista


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## Glenn

jeebsy said:


> What advantages do you think a something like a Brewtus would have over this machine in a domestic environment? I can see why you'd take an E61 if you were pumping out a high volume of shots but from my experience with the Sage and your reviews it seems this is more suited to a home environment.


The Sage Dual Boiler is more suited to the home. I cannot see it being used in a commercial setting, unless it was in a hair dressers or serviced offices where singles or pairs of drinks were being made with rest intervals between


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## GS11

Are you able to adjust brew temperature with the sage?

Yes - easily (within seconds)

You can adjust both brew temperature and steam pressure independently

You can also adjust pre-infusion time just as easily


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## coffeechap

The reason that I ask is that this is an interesting machine and choices will be made based upon the review that is done on here.


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## Mrboots2u

coffeechap said:


> The reason that I ask is that this is an interesting machine and choices will be made based upon the review that is done on here.


What was the question ?


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## jeebsy

I'm certainly giving this some serious thought.


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## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


> What was the question ?


CC asked how if it was better than the Brewtus


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## Mrboots2u

Thanks I think I asked how does it compare also .


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## Glenn

Sage Dual Boiler vs Expobar Dual Leva (aka Brewtus)

This post sums up how hard it is to choose between the two machines

The Sage Dual Boiler has some really good features (lets call them pros) that the Expobar does not have;


Fast heat up (you could be enjoying a coffee within 10 minutes of startup)

Power-save mode

Built-in shot timer

Auto Start (turns itself on in the morning)

Adjustable (repeatable) time + power pre-infusion

Descale + Auto-clean cycles

Swivel foot for easy manoeuvring

Cleaning reminders

Simple descaling of boilers

Drip tray float advising when to empty

Storage for tools and cleaning product under the drip tray

Backlit buttons

Volumetric dosing (manual also available)

Brilliant instructions / hint & tips

Real (similar to VST) baskets - and pressurised if you want to use them

It could match your toaster or other appliances

You can get a matching grinder


The Sage Dual Boiler also has some less desirable traits (lets call them cons);


Portafilter retains quite a bit of liquid after flushing / rinsing, which takes a bit of shaking out before dosing again

Large footprint - at 41cm it's quite wide

Shallower drip tray

It doesn't feel as solid - more plastic than steel - unlike the Expobar which looks and feels solid

Buttons vs lever engagement

Slightly noisier (burbles after running water)

Wetter pucks

Doesn't like a super-fine grind (needle indicating pressure jumps about)


Disclaimer:

Without understanding exactly what you are looking for in your coffee making experience I am unable to recommend one machine over the other


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## jeebsy

The Brewtus seems a more straightforward machine with less to go wrong and the E61 is a tried and tested design. The bells and whistles are pretty nice though...


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## jeebsy

How does it heat up so quickly?

Not sure, as I was asked not to open the lid on this machine. It will available as a cutaway at the event in London next week

Is the design of the group a big departure from what you typically see in a coffee machine?

No, it still fits 58mm baskets (including VSTs)

Answers in red by Glenn


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## garydyke1

http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/breville-double-boiler-portafilter-leak-t27859.html


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## Dave Gubbin

Glenn you mentioned the quality of our filters v's vst. The attached is a photo of ours and a vst under a 200x microscope


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## coffeechap

I take it yours is the one at the top


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## Glenn

Thanks Dave. The VST's didn't behave discernibly differently than the supplied baskets, which were by far the best baskets I have seen supplied with a machine.


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## Dave Gubbin

Yep. Ours is the first image.



coffeechap said:


> I take it yours is the one at the top


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## Lattedrinker

Can we have a update Glenn in the main thread?


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## garydyke1

My VST basket is nowhere near as irregular as the one pictured


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## big dan

I'm interested in the boiler access button as the US versions don't seem to have these and there is a lot of talk about not being able to descale the machines as the water tap comes directly from the brew boiler. Have they made a design change to the UK version?


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## jeebsy

Yep the UK version has several new features over the US DB


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## CoffeeDiva

If Heston is now putting his name to what sounds like a decent machine, does this mean that coffee is now being taken seriously and made properly in his restaurants?


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## coffeechap

If would interesting to find out, would be ironic if not the case


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## coffeechap

garydyke1 said:


> My VST basket is nowhere near as irregular as the one pictured


Nor is mine gary


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## CoffeeDiva

coffeechap said:


> If would interesting to find out, would be ironic if not the case


I was in the London one last week, but didn't have coffee because, as a general rule, the coffee is rubbish in high end restaurants (I've seen a certain brand of pod machine which shall not be named in some). it always astounds me that they pay such attention to every other part of the process but not this.


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## coffeechap

Totally agree, I am amazed at the quality and detail that you can get in the food yet the complete lack of interest in what is clearly perceived by restaurants as an afterthought, the coffee.


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## Charliej

Has anyone else noticed that Bella Barista have started to sell the Sage range including the DB and the Smart Grinder.


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## Flibster

CoffeeDiva said:


> I was in the London one last week, but didn't have coffee because, as a general rule, the coffee is rubbish in high end restaurants (I've seen a certain brand of pod machine which shall not be named in some). it always astounds me that they pay such attention to every other part of the process but not this.


It's been about a year since I last ate at one of Heston's places. The coffee was not good, neither was the milk - and yes, it was pod based. Other half had tea which was ok, but nothing overly impressive either.

When you consider that it's generally the flavour that you end the meal with, the complete lack of attention given to both tea and coffee in high end restaurants is astonishing, and then the price they charge for it is also astonishing.

At least we have a restaurant just around the corner from us, which is now using their own Hasbean blend and doing a decent job of it. Still need to be careful about who makes it though, some of the chaps are better than others.


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## jeebsy

Charliej said:


> Has anyone else noticed that Bella Barista have started to sell the Sage range including the DB and the Smart Grinder.


They were/are also at the Good Food Show promoting their range of flavoured pods. Maybe they've realised there's more money to be made in this market rather than just selling a handful of prosumer machines to people like us.


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## Charliej

Well TBH BB's main money earner is their catering trailers anyway. That said they usually only sell gear thats decent quality, only have to look at the rest of what they sell.

I should be receiving my review DB machine tomorrow so give me a day or so to get used to it and then if anyone wants to come and have a look at it just drop me a pm.


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## Dylan

Is the review from Glenn still in process?

It seemed to fizzle out as he was waiting for the Sage Grinder.

I'm sure you may just be busy Glenn, but I was just intrigued as to how it was all going


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## 4085

I think Glenn only had the machine for a week, but I agree it seemed to be left as an unfinished review. Perhaps Charlie will share with us as I think his machine is due to land tomorrow


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## Charliej

dfk41 said:


> I think Glenn only had the machine for a week, but I agree it seemed to be left as an unfinished review. Perhaps Charlie will share with us as I think his machine is due to land tomorrow


Yeah its due tomorrow so I figure a day or so to get used to it and pull some back to back shots with the classic, will probably use my LM Strada 17g baskets for this just to keep things the same and dose around 18g, got my DSOL 2nd lot of Barnraiser I'll start with it and some Jagong Village and some Jampit so tried and tested beans as well. May be over the weekend by the time I get some thoughts written up.

AS I said in another thread if anyone wants to come and have a look and a play with it whilst I have it just drop me a pm.


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## DANGUNDERSEN

Hi Glenn,

i have the sage dual boiler and also experience the fluctuating pressure needle,

after preinfusion, pressure raises to 9.5 bar and will then progressively drop and fluctuate to around 8 -7.5 bar by the end of the shot....even though the cleaning disk is able to maintain a steady 9.5-10bar when cleaning.

i know you said that the fluctuation was less of an issue with a coarser grind and increased pre infusion.

three questions for you, when you coarsened the grind, what sort of doses (grams) were you putting in the double basket and with what pre infusion time? did this improve taste by eliminating the variation in pressure?

Kind regards

dan


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## garydyke1

DANGUNDERSEN said:


> Hi Glenn,
> 
> i have the sage dual boiler and also experience the fluctuating pressure needle,
> 
> after preinfusion, pressure raises to 9.5 bar and will then progressively drop and fluctuate to around 8 -7.5 bar by the end of the shot....even though the cleaning disk is able to maintain a steady 9.5-10bar when cleaning.
> 
> i know you said that the fluctuation was less of an issue with a coarser grind and increased pre infusion.
> 
> three questions for you, when you coarsened the grind, what sort of doses (grams) were you putting in the double basket and with what pre infusion time? did this improve taste by eliminating the variation in pressure?
> 
> Kind regards
> 
> dan


The machine has a vibe pump. As flow increases pressure (displayed on the gauge ) decreases .

Your experience is completely normal i.e. pressure decrease , rather than saying 'fluctuate' which means pressure swings up and down, up and down, up and down during the shot


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