# If lever machines produce a cleaner taste profile........



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Then why do the WBC tit around with E61 machines?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

They only have 15 mins to make the 3 drinks ; )


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Hardly an answer Gary, as if a lever needs longer then surely they have enough brain power amongst themselves to work out they will need longer


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Agree with Gary. When levers become commonplace in coffee outlets, perhaps then the WBC will think about it. Also, how many entrants to the WBC use a lever in their workplace - commercial multi E61s rule that environment. A single barista can make multiple shots easily on, say, a multiple head machine - nowhere as easy on a lever - so you'd likely need more staff to keep up with demand at busy times which equals higher running costs.


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

i dont know,this guy seem to be able to fire off shots on his bosco,





 7cbaHEMm7gNHA


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I can think of a raft of reasons...however the most pertinent ones are possibly:

#1 is a manufacturer of 2 group levers (we really mean spring lever here don't we?) willing to sponser the WBC heats to the same level as the current machine supplier? Glenn's post suggests Sanremo do rather more than post a box to the venue with a post-it stating "you break it, you buy it!";-)

#2 Does the ability to manipulate the pressure profile eliminate lever machines, given the ruling that machines are set at 9bar (+/- 0.5 bar)? Adjustment to machine set up is prohibited. It's a barista competition, not a machine competition, so as long as the machines are consistent that's what counts. I'd imagine they're supposed to provide a level playing field...we know people run faster down hill, but the 100m final is always on the flat.

#3 Would the requirement to pull 4x 30ml (+/- 5ml) espressos cause an issue, if 2 pulls of the lever are required wouldn't this negate the benefit of the decreasing pressure profile (assuming this to be the root of your assertion) of the spring lever (as pointed out by RoloD & Coffeechap in your other thread).


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Patrick, the birth place of the Espresso machine, Italy, you will be hard pushed in many places to find an E61,


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

bubbajvegas said:


> i dont know,this guy seem to be able to fire off shots on his bosco,


In fairness, we do not know the volume of the shots being sold here, they may be 30ml +/-5ml, they may not...whatever the case, the customers (rather than judges) are happy and no one seems to measuring them or complaining.


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

bubbajvegas said:


> i dont know,this guy seem to be able to fire off shots on his bosco,


Great watching that barista at work, he's clearly been doing it for some years.


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

Yeah,it's cool ain't it,bet his day flies by


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Patrick, the birth place of the Espresso machine, Italy, you will be hard pushed in many places to find an E61,


Glad you mentioned that David. But there is no denying that in both the commercials and domestic setting, E61s are the norm. I can't see the world of coffee reverting to the lever as the extraction method of preference due to the electronic wizzardry present in commercial and higher end domestic pump driven machines helping eliminate perceived inconsistencies in the process of extraction.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Off topic but what's the purpose of the very quick lever pull you see the barista do? I've heard never to do this on the L1 as it will overheat the group.

I'd love to work the lever that smoothly some day, I'm still very cautious when releasing the lever upwards and go a lot slower than him until I fell the bite.


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

The londinium is the same group as the bosco in the vid,so not sure why you can't do same


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

But, no one has answered the question which is, it would seem that original espresso machines were levers, levers are generally considered to have a cleaner taste profile, but they are not used in competition where the whole point is to produce an amazing cuppa. Southern Italy, and I am sure coffeechap who lives there will agree, is the home of the lever and all the coffee retailers use them, not E61. Nothing to do with volume of shot, you drink what you get given. If taste rules, and if you enjoy what you drink, then why use a machine that does not produce as good a shot, until you go high end where I believe Lm machines now have flavour paddles........what exactly are they trying to emanate?


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

Reiss actually mentions about doing a quicker pull on this vid


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Only been to one cafe in Sicily, Italy that had a lever machine and that was a Bosco out of 20 odd cafes i visit when there. Perhaps Sicilians dont like levers that much. Im going there this summer and take some snapshots if i am allowed. Dont want to find a nags head in me bed


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> But, no one has answered the question which is, it would seem that original espresso machines were levers, levers are generally considered to have a cleaner taste profile, but they are not used in competition where the whole point is to produce an amazing cuppa. Southern Italy, and I am sure coffeechap who lives there will agree, is the home of the lever and all the coffee retailers use them, not E61. Nothing to do with volume of shot, you drink what you get given. If taste rules, and if you enjoy what you drink, then why use a machine that does not produce as good a shot, until you go high end where I believe Lm machines now have flavour paddles........what exactly are they trying to emanate?


Read the competition rules.

LM don't supply the machines for the competition, if they did, I don't know if they would be allowed to supply Stradas.

Of course, it could all be an evil conspiracy...or, worse still, all the lever pulled shots would all taste so "clean" (not sure what that means? Are you suggesting it is impssible to overextract with a lever machine?) that the judges wouldn't be able to pick a winner...everyone would have a group hug at the end & all get a medal!


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

I must admit that in the Italian cafe series on YouTube that vintagecigarman linked to there weren't many levers shown,mostly faema and la cimbali E61's


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

No I am merely asking why E61 machines have monopoly? You can write any rules you wish for a competition. If you use a lever then you will appreciate the fact that a shot pulled wigh a reducing pressure tastes different to. Flicking a switch and forcing water through a puck


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I dont think the Nuova Simonelli Aurelia II machines are even ''e61''

http://www.nuovasimonelli.it/en/products/traditional-machines/aurelia-ii/aurelia-ii-competizione


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> No I am merely asking why E61 machines have monopoly?


Because of the the power of clout. Remember Betamax versus VHS - Betamax was considered superior but lost out to VHS because the power players opted to go with VHS.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

dfk41 said:


> Patrick, the birth place of the Espresso machine, Italy, you will be hard pushed in many places to find an E61,


You obviously go to a different part of Italy to me! Hard work to find any levers at work around Milan, Venice, Florence, the Trentino, or Rome for that matter. I think it's probably quite a Neapolitan thing.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Agree with Gary. When levers become commonplace in coffee outlets, perhaps then the WBC will think about it. Also, how many entrants to the WBC use a lever in their workplace - commercial multi E61s rule that environment. A single barista can make multiple shots easily on, say, a multiple head machine - nowhere as easy on a lever - so you'd likely need more staff to keep up with demand at busy times which equals higher running costs.]
> 
> actually it doesn't take much longer to pull a shot on a lever than is does on an e61, especially if that e61 has been properly set up with pre infusion. And levers cost less to run as no pump!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

bubbajvegas said:


> The londinium is the same group as the bosco in the vid,so not sure why you can't do same


Londinium has a thermosyphon


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

vintagecigarman said:


> You obviously go to a different part of Italy to me! Hard work to find any levers at work around Milan, Venice, Florence, the Trentino, or Rome for that matter. I think it's probably quite a Neapolitan thing.


Totally, levers are really only found in any volume in the south of Italy, in the north the preference is certainly for pump driven machines.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Patrick, the birth place of the Espresso machine, Italy, you will be hard pushed in many places to find an E61,


E61 group was also invented in Italy, a mere 16 years after after the lever machine appeared. So in the last 129yrs of espresso machines, the lever machines were only the default for 12.5% of that time.

The original espresso machines were steam powered (for the first 60yrs)...so this has nothing to do with keeping things "original", "traditional" nor more/less "Italian".

Not saying they are any better/worse, or don't have certain enviable qualities (personally, I'd love one), but this thread seems based upon a lot of assumptions, not least that coffee extracted from a pump machine has innate defects.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB, no assumptions on my part. A lever machine starts to pull a shot and from that point, the bar pressure drops away. This compares to a pump machine, that puts the same pressure through the puck from start to finish. The resulting tatse profiles are very different, if you do not believe me, try them.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I don't think either processes have innate defects, both extract coffee in differing ways, however top end machines are now utilising pressure profiling on the go, that basically emulates the extraction of a lever machine. Both types of machine a certainly capable of producing great shots of coffee so I don't think that is in question, however back to the question that was original posted.

I find it strange that the baristas all have to use the same machine to extract coffee, yet they are allowed to use their own grinder, surely all machinery should be the same? Otherwise why can't they have a lever machine in the mix or differing machines in general. Different grinders do different things to coffee and the taste profile of an extract will be different using different grinders, so it is not really a level playing field, as some might be running down hill if they have the best grinder!

I am not up to speed with all the rules and regulations of the WBC but it does seem ludicrous to specify a machine but not a grinder, (or is it all about sponsorship!).


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

It's not practical to have anything other than fixed , plumbed in machines. Scheduling the back to back performances is hard enough I should imagine. Grinders are obviously portable - they let each chef bring their own knife and ingredients, yet they must all share the same stove .


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Still not sold, a grinder is not really like a knife, it is the other key variable to espresso alongside the machine, surely the mark of the best barista is how they can use both bits of kit grinder and machine and for both to be standardised. Would be interesting to see them at work across both lever and pump driven.

Anyway I don't write the rules, they have been thought out by far more qualified people than me..


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> top end machines are now utilising pressure profiling on the go, that basically emulates the extraction of a lever machine.


Not sure if that's true. I've experimented quite a bit with pressure profiling on a Silvia and on a Speedster, but neither seemed to emulate the extraction of the Londinium. Pressure profiling is one factor in the extraction, but there are others. The typical lever declining temperature profile is not available on most pump machines. Also, some levers seem to preinfuse the puck more quickly and more evenly than the typical pump machine.



coffeechap said:


> I am not up to speed with all the rules and regulations of the WBC but it does seem ludicrous to specify a machine but not a grinder, (or is it all about sponsorship!).


As Gary said, allowing people to bring their own espresso machines would be a logistical nightmare. And although the grinder sponsors would love it if everyone used the official grinders, I think it would be tough on the competitors. I know baristas who have brought their own personal grinder to a competition, even though it was technically inferior to the sponsor's grinder. They knew their own grinder so well that having to learn a new one at the comp would have been a disadvantage.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Gaggia introduced the lever pump machine aroud 1948 and it was a significant innovation as, up till then, steam pressure was used to force the water through the grinds so the coffee was scorched (steam water being too hot). Faema's E61 group was, in some ways, an attempt to emulate the pressure and temperature profile of the lever. Pump machines soon took over as, obviously, they were seen as more convenient. Except in Naples. (A curious aside - in southern Italy they like their beans roasted very dark, but this is actually the sort of coffee that is least likely to reveal the benefits of a lever).

Modern top of the range machines, where you can shape both temperature and pressure profile can get very close to reproducing the results of lever machine (this was demostrated on the La Cimbali stand at the London Coffee Festival). Traditionalists might posit that this still does not quite match the way a lever presses a piston of water through the grinds, but I have no view on this.

I think the recent resurgence of interest in lever machines is a bit like a analogue/digital debate, where some people are drawn to the simplicity of the lever machine, where basic mechanics produce an output that other machines reproduce through complex electronics. Others may prefer the 'tweakability' of a digital-controlled machine, but there isn't really anything at a domestic level that comes close to this.

So lever machines remain a niche area, pump machines are the norm. I also believe the contempory barista culture values the ability to adjust every parameter which you can't really do on a lever. For us lever people - well, we just love the machines and the coffee that comes out of them.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

But, if you give every one the same toys to play with, you will find out who is the best. No inbuilt advantage to anyone then.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> But, if you give every one the same toys to play with, you will find out who is the best. No inbuilt advantage to anyone then.


And that is what happens & surely makes the pump vs lever point somewhat moot?

The declining pressure profile certainly seems desirable, but only if the lever is pulled once...don't quote the video posted, as a good example of superior shots, from one pull...unless you obviously missed the barista ladling sugar into every cup! ;-)

People make coffee, the machines are the tools used by those people.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Name me one independant shop which has lever machine(s)?

Birmingham have none, is it worth the trip into London? How many in London?

It sounds like im missing the real deal


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Is it not as simple as the fact that levers are somewhat niche in the coffee industry and as such the manufacturers don't have the financial clout to sponsor the event? I guess there is no reason to not use levers other than the majority of entrants will be using pump driven machines every day in their cafes.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Gary, that is exactly the point I am making. The automatic choice seems to be NOT a lever. In the same way that the automatic choice given to people of this forum is a Classic and an MC2, and when yo upgrade, straight to a Vario. That little myth seems to be ending now as the Vario owners are saying to some degree, that some of them have had problems and this is exactly one of the key points of the Grind Off event, there is more to life than a Vario in the home environment.

Just because no independents in Birmingham have levers does not act as justification for all others who have made that choice. Barristas are trained on E61 as a rule so why would they buck the trend? The fact that there may be one independent in the country using levers also stalls your argument. I suspect the majority of Barristas do not really understand lever machines. I know BB have tried to organise a lever day to be turned down by the chap they use. Which brings me full circle back to my original point. The answer as to why WBC use pump machines seems to be one of convenience, commercial reality and blanket acceptance in the coffee world of the E61. remember, if you enjoy what you make then it is a winner. the lever boys firmly believe that they stuff they turn out is (what word will I use here?), better, cleaner, call it what you will.And this makes me wonder, that if that is actually true, then why are they not used for competition?

Oh, and if you want to extend your invitation of naming lever coffee independents to Italy, Austrailia and the US, I could certainly name more than a few. Just because we are an Island, it is a long time since we ruled the world!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Gary, that is exactly the point I am making. The automatic choice seems to be NOT a lever. In the same way that the automatic choice given to people of this forum is a Classic and an MC2, ...QUOTE]
> 
> It's not an "automatic choice" it is the popular suggestion for those looking for a competent, entry level pump machine & electric grinder. Classics & MC2s may (or may not, I don't know how we'd check) outnumber more expensive machines, but that's driven by cost, not quality per se...I'm sure given the choice, unlimited kitchen space/SO tolerance/money, we'd all have a selection of pump & lever machines...perhaps even a lever with a pump! ;-)
> 
> ...


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

forzajuve said:


> Is it not as simple as the fact that levers are somewhat niche in the coffee industry and as such the manufacturers don't have the financial clout to sponsor the event? I guess there is no reason to not use levers other than *the majority of entrants will be using pump driven machines every day in their cafes*.


I think thats the point here.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Gary, that is exactly the point I am making. The automatic choice seems to be NOT a lever. In the same way that the automatic choice given to people of this forum is a Classic and an MC2, and when yo upgrade, straight to a Vario. That little myth seems to be ending now as the Vario owners are saying to some degree, that some of them have had problems and this is exactly one of the key points of the Grind Off event, there is more to life than a Vario in the home environment.
> 
> Just because no independents in Birmingham have levers does not act as justification for all others who have made that choice. Barristas are trained on E61 as a rule so why would they buck the trend? The fact that there may be one independent in the country using levers also stalls your argument. I suspect the majority of Barristas do not really understand lever machines. I know BB have tried to organise a lever day to be turned down by the chap they use. Which brings me full circle back to my original point. The answer as to why WBC use pump machines seems to be one of convenience, commercial reality and blanket acceptance in the coffee world of the E61. remember, if you enjoy what you make then it is a winner. the lever boys firmly believe that they stuff they turn out is (what word will I use here?), better, cleaner, call it what you will.And this makes me wonder, that if that is actually true, then why are they not used for competition?
> 
> *Oh, and if you want to extend your invitation of naming lever coffee independents to Italy, Austrailia and the US, I could certainly name more than a few.* Just because we are an Island, it is a long time since we ruled the world!


Sure, fire over a list. Ill pop out next weekend









I genuinely want someone to present me 2 espresso shots - one pump and one lever . Same coffee , same brew ratio. I need to know what im missing


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Gary, when you go to the Grind Off, ask dave to, and you will.

I am not going to contribute further to this thread. My opening line, started with the word 'If' and as guessed, all that has haoppened is the E61 boys have come out in force as if I were somehow attacking them. One last point, unless I am wrong, the WBC started off in the States, the same country that gives is the World Series (for baseball).

GAry, if you contact Claudette as BB and ask her for a list of recent clients they have who run mobile catering outfits with lever machines, you will be unpleasantly surprised.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I dont consider myself an 'e61 boy'. I just love coffee. 70% of the coffee I drink isnt even produced from an espresso machine ; )


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> My opening line, started with the word 'If' and as guessed, all that has haoppened is the E61 boys have come out in force as if I were somehow attacking them. .


That's not true at all. Most of the responses have been perfectly logical, diplomatic & addressing the question of why specifically pump machines (E61 or not) are the competition machines. Any perception of "factions" seems to be coming largely from you. Hope the weather's nice over there in Lilliput today, is your baseball team in the running for the World Series this year? ;-)


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Next we will have flat versus conical , battle to the death. haha


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## lukeap69 (Apr 23, 2013)

Nah. Dual Boiler vs HX is more exciting :sly:

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I dont consider myself an 'e61 boy'. I just love coffee. 70% of the coffee I drink isnt even produced from an espresso machine ; )


Turns out gary, your expobar dual boiler is the mid point machine being used for the grind off and it will be sat right next to the Bosco, so you can pull the shots yourself!!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

MWJB said:


> That's not true at all. Most of the responses have been perfectly logical, diplomatic & addressing the question of why specifically pump machines (E61 or not) are the competition machines. Any perception of "factions" seems to be coming largely from you. Hope the weather's nice over there in Lilliput today, is your baseball team in the running for the World Series this year? ;-)


I would much rather be in my little Lilliputian abode with the comfort of my lever to while away my blues.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> I would much rather be in my little Lilliputian abode with the comfort of my lever to while away my blues.


Why do you live in Lilliput?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Cool. Make sure the Bosco and Expo are at the same temps ; )


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Why do you live in Lilliput?


I thought that is where you were bracketing us lever users


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Cool. Make sure the Bosco and Expo are at the same temps ; )


Bosco will be at the same temp it always is at, but you are more than welcome to play with the temp on the expobar to try and match it.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> I thought that is where you were bracketing us lever users


Not at all. I have no wish to "bracket"/factionalise/divide/subgroup espresso lovers whatsoever. Dfk41 was suggesting there were "E61 boys" and "lever boys" ...as if there is some caffienated "Westside Story" scenario being acted out around the country ("Danny was the leader of the E61 boys, they cruised the mean streets looking for adventure & thrills, one eye over their shoulder in case of attack by their sworn foes - the lever boys...then Danny fell for Gertrude, who hung with the lever boys!" cue singing, choreographed dancing in unison, finger snapping, quiff combing, needless tragic end...sniff!), before having an unecessary swipe at the Americans? It was dfk41's needlessly adversarial attitude that I was likening to the Lilliputians.

If that's the world you want to live in...knock yourself out? Me, I have an unrealistic dream of the internet & forums being a medium for sharing ideas, knowledge, in a positive way.

Dfk41 asked a question, got sensible & reasonable responses, avoided doing the bare minimum of research & took umbrage when we didn't all take up placards & picket the UKBC heats...;-)


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

This is getting like the Twix advert, left & right Twix falling out making the same end product


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MjWB, thanks for your input to this thread. If you think you have answered the original question, then fantastic and good on you. I do not think I have aimed any personal abuse in your direction, or tried to rib the mickey out of you in this thread, so quite why you feel the need to try and belittle me I am not sure. I did not ask for a lecture on WBC rules, nor do I have any wish to read them. I asked why E61 machines are used solely, which would suggest to me, that Lever trained Baristas are somehow being excluded, whilst still able to make perfectly acceptable cups of coffee.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41, when I first saw your original post, I rather felt it was simply a result of your enjoyment & subsequent zeal relating to your own lever experience. You're enjoying great coffee, that's great, I'm happy for you & wish everyone was enjoying coffee that gave them the obvious emotional uplift that you get.

However, it seems that no rational suggestion is going to satisfy you. You dismiss everything simply because you don't like the sound of it, irrespective of logistical, or practical merit. You have no wish to examine the regulations for a competition that you strongly feel should use lever machines. This suggests you have little interest in the competition itself (I don't have much myself but it only took me a few minutes to see if there were possible tangible grounds for lever exclusion), yet you seem to expect the whole thing to be re-jigged just to suit your personal whim. Does this honestly sound realistic?

You have so far questioned the brainpower of the competition officials, coined the notion of a malevolent faction of "E61 boys" controlling the world's espresso machine preference by force of will, suggested that the competition should be extended if necessary (at whose cost, are competitors judges & spectators demanding longer sets?), reinvented the history of the espresso machine itself to suit your propaganda needs & frankly shown little appreciation for the organisers & event sponsors' contributions. I have no experience with this competition myself (other than watching highlights streamed on the PC), but I have been involved in various other events & competitions in an official capacity & these things don't "just happen", people sacrifice their free time, usually for little more than their love of the event.

I also rather think you do lever boys somewhat of a disservice...are we to expect that a "lever trained barista" will grind, dose, tamp, lock in the portafilter, then simply stand around, shotless, shrugging like a vacant fool because he can't find a lever & is unable to grasp the concept of pressing a button with a little coffee cup sign on it? I hope the hotel he stays in has levers instead of buttons for the lift controls, otherwise he may well have to sleep in the foyer/remain stranded on the floor he slept on! :-o

We all love coffee, that's why we're here - we have more in common then we do legitimate reasons to fall out...I merely aim to illustrate the absurdity of some of your perceptions against a real-world scenario. A little mickey taking? Well, we all have to live with that from time to time? Anyhow, I heard lever boys were hard enough to take it. ;-)


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Us lever boys are soft as shite, and get our feelings hurt sooooooo easily, you pump heads are such bullies


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

After all this i dont want a lever or an E61, gonna look on Ebay for an Atomic me thinks


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

WBC are not using Atomics are they?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Perhaps they should, how cheap would that be??


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Do you think they could still waffle on for however long they waffle on for if they had to use a stove top?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Us lever boys are soft as shite, and get our feelings hurt sooooooo easily, you pump heads are such bullies


What, even with all that physical lever pulling? More of a workout than I ever do...if it comes to a fight, I'll be feigning a fainting fit at the bell & playing dead til I'm sure I'm safe! He who turns & runs away, lives to run away another day!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

On a more serious note i think the signature drink should be dropped in favour of a brewed coffee


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Yes but I keep forgetting to change hands, so just have an incredibly strong right arm....


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> On a more serious note i think the signature drink should be dropped in favour of a brewed coffee


Oh gary why does it have to get serious again, I agree that it would be interesting to test a barista across a range of drinks other than espresso based


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## Savo (Apr 9, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Yes but I keep forgetting to change hands, so just have an incredibly strong right arm....


 Is that just from making coffee?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

And writing of course


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Great thread, from levers & E61 to J. Arthurs


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

glevum said:


> Great thread, from levers & E61 to J. Arthurs


Has to lighten it up a little some how


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

2 answers to the original question raised and a questions about grinders

1. Commercials

The machine sponsors put a heck of a lot of money into the competition. If a lever manufacturer put up a lot of money AND a better support package than the current sponsors then I'm sure it would be considered.

There are currently WBC machine sponsor Nuova Simonelli espresso machines in over 50 countries for training use of the national champions

They also take a load of machines around the word for calibration of judges and support of the competition in general.

The 3 machines you see out front on the competition floor is just the tip of the iceberg

All of these people (except the 6 competitors) were at last years event making things happen behind the scenes

2. Clause 4.4 of the 2013 WBC Rules states



Competitors have the option of using the official WBC grinder provided, bringing their own grinder(s) or using both the providedgrinder and their own grinder. Competitors may not use more than two grinders for espresso preparation during theirperformance, otherwise the competitor will receive zero (0) points in Station Management on all Technical Score Sheets. A
​
grinder is defined for this competition as a paired motor and grinding surface.

In the US Barista Championships use of the sponsors grinder has been mandated. The UK may follow suit.

After all, I revert to 1. Commercials.

The grinder sponsor for both the UK, US and WBC - Mahlkonig - not only puts up a sizeable sum of money but also provides superb support in technical assistance throughout the events, also making available grinders prior to each heat for training purposes. This is a sizeable sum of money tied up in stock which gets used and abused throughout the season.

Hope this clarifies things a little?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Glenn, it does clarify things as it confirms that the real purpose of the competition is to raise commercial awareness of manufacturers and products and individuals, rather than promote the coffee scene in general! There was an article on Watchdog tonight, on the pricing of Hayfever tablets, when they all contain exactly the same 5% ingredient. The common denominator was advertising.

Now, I am not saying that the WBC is not worthwhile, far from it but I am suggesting that it is wrong to exclude an important aspect of the coffee scene purely on grounds of commercialism!


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

I'm sure if you passed a lead of a willing lever machine manufacturer to the WBC organising team they would make contact.

The point I was hoping to get across is that it's not about WBC making money (as they are a collaboration between SCAA and SCAE - both member-based organisations)

It's about being able to fund such an investment in making the event happen.

In the 2 years that I was involved with UKBC I have seen interest grow by several hundred %. There is an 'expectation' to stream the events worldwide, realtime, and media organisations from all across the globe want information and results instantly. None of these are free services that can be offered without the support of sponsors.

To make it happen 2 things are required. 1. Volunteers and 2. Sponsors.

The common denominator in anything these days is £, $, € etc


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Glenn, I was not really arguing with you. The point I was making was that as ever, money makes the world go round. I also mentioned in an earlier comment, that the good old US of A has the World Series event for a sport which is only played by them! So, the WBC is not representing the Worlds Baristas, only some of them!


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Probably of more concern (in order to win the game) is the cost baristas are incurring in replicating the setup.

A number are self funded but some have tend of thousands of dollars of time and resources thrown at them to help them bring home the title.

A number of 2013 WBC Baristas have gone to the trouble of building their own practise areas, kitting them out with competition spec machines and have spend thousands on their setups so far.

This is just one example (there are lots of others...)

On the other hand, there will be the baristas from producing countries who have only just managed to make it to the event (if they are able to pay the visa costs) and will have to beg and borrow just to put together and perform a basic routine...

It's not hard to see who might have a chance of making the final.

I don't think this would be any different if lever machines were being used.

However, I must stress that you needn't incur loads of costs, just watch Colin Harmon's WBC routines. Plain and simple and very effective. It's all about playing the game and scoring points in the right places - a far cry from the day to day world of life behind a machine - that said, many of the good competition practices make their way back into the coffeeshop improving the overall customer experience.


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## Nimble Motionists (Oct 22, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Glenn, it does clarify things as it confirms that the real purpose of the competition is to raise commercial awareness of manufacturers and products and individuals, rather than promote the coffee scene in general! There was an article on Watchdog tonight, on the pricing of Hayfever tablets, when they all contain exactly the same 5% ingredient. The common denominator was advertising.
> 
> Now, I am not saying that the WBC is not worthwhile, far from it but I am suggesting that it is wrong to exclude an important aspect of the coffee scene purely on grounds of commercialism!


Is that you volunteering to foot the bill of the WBC so they can include lever machines?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Crikey Nimble, is the point I am making that hard to grasp! A WBC event does not represent all entrants who could qualify on grounds of making a good cuppa. They have to find the backing to turn up etc, as Glenn mentioned. That cannot be right! What they really mean, is a criteria is set so only the big boys can afford the sponsorship and the only reason they do this is to further their own interests.

Do you think Roger Bannister followed the training routines that todays athletes maintain? Of course not and that is why his mile time although a record breaker at the time, is now pedestrian. Is football actually any better for all the money Sky have pumped in? Not from where I am sitting as unless you have a man with serious clout backing you, then you cannot finish higher than 4th in the Premiership. Is that helping the game? I think not!

So the big boys sponsor the event, and now entrants are receiving sponsorship to the tune of big bucks.......I wonder why? Is it the prestige of winning or the $ to be achieved from winning? Rant over!

Just because a firm has enough money to sponsor an event, does not make it any better than anyone elses product.......just more visible


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

And check out what all the roasters end up buying in their digs, bet they move on from San remo.....


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

dfk41 said:


> ...Is it the prestige of winning or the $ to be achieved from winning?...


Both. In the end the $ will be a welcome injection to help the barista go out on their own or give something back to their community (whichever option he/she chooses)



dfk41 said:


> ...Just because a firm has enough money to sponsor an event, does not make it any better than anyone elses product.......just more visible...


Tour de France and Brompton World Championships springs to mind


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Glenn, I might have missed the word automatically out! Anyway, there is an old saying, 'Just because you have a Porsche, does not mean you are a racing driver'.

Do not get me wrong, I think the whole competition scene is good and helping develop into new countries, and I know there will never be a level playing field, but thats life


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## Sam__G (Sep 4, 2011)

I tend to ignore your posts as much as possible dfk, but this once, just grow up...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

So why is that then Sam? Do you not like open discussions which is what forums are for or can I only talk about things with which you approve?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> So why is that then Sam? Do you not like open discussions which is what forums are for or can I only talk about things with which you approve?


This isn't a "discussion" it's a propaganda broadcast. There is no dissemination of the responses you receive.

I fail to see how the adoption of lever machines will suddenly make everything fair & balanced. It is not as if a 2 group, sprung lever, commercial machine is a "budget" option, is it?

This really is all about you. You have a pair of lever machines and are rightly proud of them & enjoy them. However, you seem to feel personally slighted because the machines you have are not featured as the default machine in the WBC (as if everyone has Sanremos & Aurelias at home?). Grow a pair...sit & enjoy your coffee, smug in the knowledge you have the "cleanest cups" (beyond a decreasing pressure profile - which many will agree can be desirable -, I still don't understand what you mean) known to man and laugh at the deluded souls who flutter around pump machines.

If you're expecting to be hailed as the second coming, the chosen one, who leads lever to their rightful, unquestioned dominance...then you are madder than a box of frogs.

I always fancied a lever machine...still do...but just the sight/mention of them now triggers an unfavourable emotional response, thanks to your tortuous thread.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MJWB, you really have got no idea. I am on no crusade mate. If you want to imagine that somehow us lever bods think ourselves superior to your E61 boys then you are sadly deluded. I have no wish to force my lever views on anyone. You pays your money, you takes your choice.

I started a thread off, to ask, quite simply, that IF it is true that lever machines produce a 'better' cup than an E61 machine, why are they not included in the WBC. The answer has come out quite quickly and I accept that. But it also throws up the fact that the WBC by its own standards, is not definitive and is exiling a section of the coffee society because the lever manufacturers cannot/do not throw vast sums of money into their circus arena.

The fact that I have two lever machines or possibly more, and possibly some E61 and others is neither here nor there. If you think I am going to lose any sleep over your quite pathetic attempts to rile me then you are wrong. I have leveled no accusations on a personal basis at you. My balls are quite big enough to bypas your thinly veiled venom, whilst still remaining smug as you put it. If Londinium or Bezerra want to sponsor the WBC, that is for them and not me.

Being hailed as something.....no, not me. I do not even put a signature on my name, unless I feel like acting up a little. What I have is for me to enjoy without the need to impress others. If you are put off from buying a lever machine because of my thread, then I guess that tells the world more about you and your inadequacies than me and mine.

As Dave Allen said, 'May your God go with you.'


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

MWJB said:


> This isn't a "discussion" it's a propaganda broadcast. There is no dissemination of the responses you receive.
> 
> I fail to see how the adoption of lever machines will suddenly make everything fair & balanced. It is not as if a 2 group, sprung lever, commercial machine is a "budget" option, is it?
> 
> ...


Although I am not necessarily in agreement with all the points that have been raised, I do feel that this has had both sides of a coin aired and thus has been a discussion, which might not be to everyones taste, but it has drawn out some good responses from varying perspectives on this forum, which is what I thought discussion and debate was about, surely tortuous is what a lot of threads are as by nature they will twist and turn in all kinds of directions?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Although I am not necessarily in agreement with all the points that have been raised, I do feel that this has had both sides of a coin aired and thus has been a discussion, which might not be to everyones taste, but it has drawn out some good responses from varying perspectives on this forum, which is what I thought discussion and debate was about, surely tortuous is what a lot of threads are as by nature they will twist and turn in all kinds of directions?


Yes, threads twist & turn, go off track, but usually there is something to be learned...I struggle to see what there is to take from this thread.

dfk41 "But it also throws up the fact that the WBC by its own standards, is not definitive and is exiling a section of the coffee society because the lever manufacturers cannot/do not throw vast sums of money into their circus arena." Utter nonsense. Lever, or pump, the action happens in the group head...hot water is forced though grinds at 9#C at ~9bar, the grinds don't know what's pushing that water through...result in the cup is primarily dependent on raw ingredient, grind & dose - that's the barista's job, it's the same for any espresso machine. To suggest anyone needs years of training to tell the difference between button & lever operation, or is excluded by not having the option is bananas.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Although I am not necessarily in agreement with all the points that have been raised, I do feel that this has had both sides of a coin aired and thus has been a discussion, which might not be to everyones taste, but it has drawn out some good responses from varying perspectives on this forum, which is what I thought discussion and debate was about, surely tortuous is what a lot of threads are as by nature they will twist and turn in all kinds of directions?


Yes, threads twist & turn, go off track, but usually there is something to be learned...I struggle to see what there is to take from this thread.

dfk41 "But it also throws up the fact that the WBC by its own standards, is not definitive and is exiling a section of the coffee society because the lever manufacturers cannot/do not throw vast sums of money into their circus arena." Utter nonsense. Lever, or pump, the action happens in the group head...hot water is forced though grinds at 9#C at ~9bar, the grinds don't know what's pushing that water through...result in the cup is primarily dependent on raw ingredient, grind & dose - that's the barista's job, it's the same for any espresso machine. To suggest anyone needs years of training to tell the difference between button & lever operation, or is excluded by not having the option is bananas.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Actually some people that maybe did not have a lot of knwledge about the WBC will have gained a little from this thread, perhaps MWJB your knowledge is a lot deeper in this area, i have taken a few things from it so not a complete loss, plus I like seeing the tooing and froing of some of the more challenging threads....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB

]I think I understand where I have gone wrong now. You are saying,that when you press the button on an E61, water is forced into the group head at a constant pressure, until you kill the shot. If that is right, then what happens with a lever shot. that must be the bit I do not quite get.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> MWJB
> 
> ]I think I understand where I have gone wrong now. You are saying,that when you press the button on an E61, water is forced into the group head at a constant pressure, until you kill the shot. If that is right, then what happens with a lever shot. that must be the bit I do not quite get.


The water starts at ~9bar pressure (excluding pre-infusion, which is common to both E61 & levers) then declines from that point with a sprung lever. My understanding (there are plenty that know far more than me on this subject) is that the rate of extraction tails off with the decrease in pressure. Once you have extracted to the sweet spot (assuming you got there in the first place), you ideally get less of the overextracted portion ...unless you go for a second pull, in which case you hit the puck with high pressure again and more aggressive extraction (possibly picking up more post sweet-spot, undesirable elements).

A pump with no pressure profiling will extract more uniformly, making the point where you kill the shot more critical.

Pourovers & espresso usually consist of varying degrees of underextraction, middle cut & possibly some overextraction (beyond the sweetspot, if not technically overextracted, beyond 22% yield) and a balance of desirable flavours & undesirable flavours (you can't easily take undesirable early flavours out, you can only limit undesirable late flavours from getting in). The lever/decreasing pressure profile should stack the odds in favour of the juicier/sweeter part of the shot...if you have a suitable grind & brew ratio. With a pump machine you might "top & tail" the shot, let the first few drips go in the tray, catch the middle cut, then whip the cup out from under the group/kill the shot before overextracting.

Note the "shoulds" & "ifs" - Using a sprung lever does not necessarily mean that all shots will take one pull of the lever, historically (if not so much these days) a Ristretto was a short shot, being the max that could be delivered from one pull of the lever. Italian style espresso is supposed to have a bitter-sweet taste and in the video posted in this thread is augmented with sugar. Not a question of better/worse more a question of context/market/expectation.

Neither machine makes it impossible to over/underextract, that's where the barista's skill & judgement come in. Hitting the balance at a desired output. If everyone has the same tool to use, it's that skill that becomes the focus, rather than brand/type of machine, which may change year in/out depending on sponsorship proposals.

David Walsh described an interesting experiment in the Youtube video of his NBC talk last year, where he used a Strada to brew a cup of "filter coffee" with a coarse grind (this probably isn't the best place to bring up ESE pods, but fast brew ESE pods aimed at producing ~170g from a single shot have been around a good while - similar concept, if not as well executed). So over/under are relative to grind & desired output (subsequent body/mouthfeel requirements). All shots pretty much start out "under" and, assuming no chanelling, will get to sweet spot and "over" at some point.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am still slightly confused. Is pulling a shot at constant pressure and just losing the first bit and the last bit (ok, I am being simplistic) going to produce the same flavour profile as starting a shot at say 9 bar, and the pressure is falling away from that point on due to the lever effect. I accept totally that a barista will have far more skill than us ordinary mortals, but you would expect any professional to have more knowledge than an amateur, no matter how enthusiastic. If the flavour of a lever extraction is more or less the same as a pump extraction, then when I am playing with my Strega, playing at imitating the range of different shots it lets you pull, or thats according to Jim Schulman on his video blog of it, then my tatse buds must be very confused.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

That Italian bitter / sweet taste......there are so many cafes in Sicily that take it for granted that you want it sweet. Most of the time it just gets served up the way the barista likes it. Take it or leave it! Just the way it is there i suppose. Or he's hiding his over extraction.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

No, I shouldn't imagine they will produce the same flavour profile (all other factors being equal) & pressure profiling is one way to manipulate the flavour. Different is different, better is better, worse is worse...different can be different with out being better or worse, or it can include varying degrees of either. I have no reason to suggest that your taste buds aren't spot on, I wouldn't anyway, this is an internet forum - it's not like we can actually taste each other's shots/brews, a degree of trust/benefit of the doubt should be a given.

Look at it this way...you can pull great shots, you can choose, roast, grind whatever beans you choose ...I don't doubt for a minute that there are some sublime shots. A competition like WBC (or any other World championship) is about consistently doing it, being assessed not just by your friends & peers but by a panel of experts & technical judges. It's part show, part being broken down to diagnostic state...whilst it dovetails with real life, it's not "real life". It's a display of excellence, baristas may use micro lots that they couldn't afford to serve day-to-day in the commercial environment...it's supposed to be a canvas for the very best. In the same way that your car might be the exact colour you like & have great fuel economy, go quite fast...but it won't get you on the F1 starting grid.

If there wasn't a supplied sponsor machine, then things could just as easily go totally out of hand...baristas practicing in mock up WBC stages seems extravagant...but what if everyone used their own machines & someone took away a title after using a KvW Idrocompresso (just an example, not saying that being a lever machine is relevant) & that became the "must have" competitors machine (as frequently happens in other sports & events)? Wouldn't that make things much less inclusive.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I think the key points that have been raised throughout this thread are as follows

1. The WBC has to have sponsorship in order to run the event and this primarilly comes from manufacturers as they have a vested interest in the coffee industry

2. Lever machine manufacturers just dont have the financial clout of the big pump driven manufacturers and thus would struggle to support such an event in the same way

3. Levers (rightly or wrongly) are just not as popular and therefore the competition reflects the pragmatic realism of the industry. ( interestingly I had a conversation with KVDW yesterday and they intimated that levers only account for less than 10 percent of their business and thats coming from one of the leaders in lever tech.)

4. Both extraction methods have their positives and draw backs and pro either side will probably always side with their opinion, at the grindoff participants will be able to do a direct comparison with a San Remo WBC set up machine and a Bosco one group lever side by side, shot by shot.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

This is the most bizarre discussion, and I really don't see what the problem is.

The WBC run on and are sponsored by industry standard machines. Lever machines are not industry standard. End of story.

Lever machines produce very good coffee but they are very much a niche product. The most sophisticated commercial pump machines can probably match the profiling of a lever machine very well. No domestic machines can do that so, arguably, no domestic pump machine is going to quite match a domestic lever machine.

Some people just love the mechanical simplicity of levers, others are more drawn to digital controls that can make fine adjustments. Both positions are perfectly reasonable.

Have I missed something here?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rolo, no, nothing missed. I think that the conversation veered into personality likes and dislikes which happens from time to time I guess. I thought it was a fairly harmless question to ask, initially anyway!

I would like to carry the talk on though, but to veer away from the WBC element, and just ask if those going to the grind off who will have the chance to try the same coffee, same grinder, same tamp on a San Remo and a Bosco can detect any differences. I have to hold my hands up and say my taste buds are not the best, and I do not necessarily hold with the view that a lever makes a better espresso than a pump, especially when using 2 commercial machines. So, I wish I could attend but I cannot, so will have to rely on those who can to help in this matter.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

consider it done


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

I've just come back from trying out 1 HX and 2 Dual Boiler machines with the same beans, same grinder, same basket, same tamper and had 3 varying (perceptibly different) tastes (more on this later)

Looking forward to the side-by-side of grinders with commercial and lever machine at the grind off.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> Rolo, no, nothing missed. I think that the conversation veered into personality likes and dislikes which happens from time to time I guess. I thought it was a fairly harmless question to ask, initially anyway!
> 
> I would like to carry the talk on though, but to veer away from the WBC element, and just ask if those going to the grind off who will have the chance to try the same coffee, same grinder, same tamp on a San Remo and a Bosco can detect any differences. I have to hold my hands up and say my taste buds are not the best, and I do not necessarily hold with the view that a lever makes a better espresso than a pump, especially when using 2 commercial machines. So, I wish I could attend but I cannot, so will have to rely on those who can to help in this matter.


I think although this is possible it might not be the perfect test we're hoping for. I'm not certain but I would imagine the grind required for a pump vs a lever machine is unlikely to have the same sweet spot so using the same grinder would probably require a bit of dialling in between shots making it difficult to taste them side by side.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I would suspect that Dave will be able to set the grinders up for each machine, to allow them to produce their best shot! All I said was same coffee, same grinder, same tamp, I did not mention same grind! Sorry for the confusion.


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