# Any love for "traditional" Italian beans?



## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

Hi,

I'm just reaching out to see whether anybody has any love for old school, made in Italy, traditional espresso beans. I'm not talking about Rave Italian Job, or Union Revelation, but the likes of Kimbo, Mokarabia, Hausbrandt, even - dare I say - Illy/Segafredo/Lavazza?!? ?

Yes, my usual beans will be Rocko Mountain, or Honduran, or some 'modern' espresso blend, but I do like the occasional guilty pleasure of some dark, industrial, crema-heavy beans. A cafe near me (Ginevra) actually sells a 100% Robusta from Sicily, which I like to partake in occasionally.

I imagine people might say "no roast date" and "robusta is evil", but is this coffee fundamentally beneath us, as coffee nerds, is it genuinely unpleasant, or can we dabble? I'd love to hear a recommendation for a particular Italian bean, from someone who also drinks 'modern' coffee.

Cheers


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## Nick1881 (Dec 18, 2018)

I'm still new in the world of espresso really so I'm still trying things. I have had Lavazza from the supermarket, the Oro ones, they are drinkable but I don't enjoy them like I do other fresh beans.

I think from my experience so far I prefer lighter roasts, I had some LSOL beans that were amazing, really need to get on another LSOL list actually.

I would be tempted to try some Illy beans, but they are more expensive than Lavazza, priced closer to fresh beans that are also likely to be much better.

You mentioned Union Revelation, I've had these a couple of times, last time I found them too dark.

Is it just me or do lighter roasts seem to be more popular now?


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

I am light roast person as well. I shy away from anything dark.

Saying that, I was in Italy earlier this year and didn't take any coffee gear. I had an espresso or two there and they were surprisingly enjoyable. Would I drink it everyday? Hell no.

I also do enjoy an occasional natural Brazilian bean that's still light(ish) as it's quite nice in milk.

It's like whisky - I might be into peaty stuff, but give me a nice Speyside dram and I won't turn away from it.


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## DDoe (May 25, 2019)

I'm not too sure what a traditional Italian bean is but I'm pretty certain it would suit me. I'm a coffee heathen, dark roasts all the way. My tastebuds aren't what they used to be and notes of this, that and the other are lost on me. I do however drink milk based coffees, never an espresso.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

PPapa said:


> It's like whisky - I might be into peaty stuff, but give me a nice Speyside dram and I won't turn away from it.


 This is a good point - I normally drink decent beer (Trappists, strong American IPA's etc.), but now and again only an ice cold cooking lager will do!

I think it can be the same with coffee, it's good to be able to enjoy simple, robust beans as well as complex, distinctive ones. I like the concept of The Comfort Espresso, something reliable which requires little thought.

Perhaps I am talking-down Italian style espresso though...


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

Anybody tried the Italian beans from CoffeeHit, TheEspressoShop, or EspressoDrinker sites?


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

CoolingFlush said:


> This is a good point - I normally drink decent beer (Trappists, strong American IPA's etc.), but now and again only an ice cold cooking lager will do!
> I think it can be the same with coffee, it's good to be able to enjoy simple, robust beans as well as complex, distinctive ones. I like the concept of The Comfort Espresso, something reliable which requires little thought.
> Perhaps I am talking-down Italian style espresso though...


It's more of a "well made drink can still be good, just not to ones tastes".

I don't subscribe to comfort espresso at home, that's not why I have an espresso machine at home. I could get mediocre espresso at half a dozen shops nearby.

Sounds snobbish, but I guess that's where we are at.


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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

I suspect "comfort espresso" means very different things to each person, perhaps? "Comfort" doesn't have to mean poor quality, mediocre, over-roasted, or a low-end coffee grade, does it? ? I have not tasted Lavazza or Illy beans, nor the Kimbo beans, so I cannot speak to those & whether they offer comfort or dismay. However, my local roaster makes a lovely espresso blend -medium roast, and far from "dark"- that I would describe as very "comforting" (deep down, right into my boots, comforting!), but never mediocre, dull or uninteresting.

I won't judge any espresso until I taste the cup.?


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

Just found this HB thread about people trying and reviewing classic Italian beans:

https://www.home-barista.com/coffees/italian-coffees-lets-talk-about-kimbo-danesi-lavazza-caffe-motta-t40668.html


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

My next purchase is going to be a kilo of Square Mile Red Brick, but after that I think I'll take a punt on Kimbo Superior, and report back on whether or not they're awful!


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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

CoolingFlush said:


> My next purchase is going to be a kilo of Square Mile Red Brick, but after that I think I'll take a punt on Kimbo Superior, and report back on whether or not they're awful!


 Taking a hit for the team! Good on ya! Be sure to let us know how it tasted.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Whether you like it or not is the important thing.

Having said that, I don't buy into this "Robusta can be good" argument at all. Yes, I know that there are ok Robustas out there, but 99.99% is rubbish. It seriously has to be one of the finest examples anywhere in the world to be any good. Even then, it has all the disadvantages of the cheaper stuff, like massively too high a caffeine content and isn't any cheaper than an average Arabica which would probably taste better. The ordinary Robustas are only used as a cheap filler in what is usually an over roasted blend. In Italy, it's often in there to try and coax a crema from stale beans. Don't forget, in Italy people are used to paying less than a euro for espresso so it needs to be cheap and ( hopefully ) cheerful. The average Italian would scoff at the very concept of third wave roasting and the prices charged, just like your average Brit is so used to drinking crap builders tea, they never actually buy the real stuff, just dust in a bag.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

In reality, significantly higher prices here compared to Italy do not produce a better coffee - on the contrary.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Nikko said:


> In reality, significantly higher prices here compared to Italy do not produce a better coffee - on the contrary.


 In reality, it does.

In Italy you can get a passable espresso almost anywhere, but you'll really struggle to get a good one as the quality of the beans are so poor. Most places are loaned their machines and then tied in to using the beans of the company that supplies it. This is always cheep commodity coffee. Do you think that stale, cheap, commodity beans with plenty of low grade Robusta will make an interesting v60 or even espresso? There's a reason why just about every other developed nation is willing to buy a better grade of beans.

That's talking about the home enthusiasts market, if you were referring to there being no consistency in the skills of baristas in the UK, I'd agree. It's so ingrained in Italian culture, you'd struggle to get a piss poor espresso.


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## Junglebert (Jan 7, 2019)

CoolingFlush said:


> My next purchase is going to be a kilo of Square Mile Red Brick, but after that I think I'll take a punt on Kimbo Superior, and report back on whether or not they're awful!


 They'll be shite, but if you like 'em, you like 'em!


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Kopi luvak is sh*t which ever way you look at it.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

This is going to be a high-stakes tasting, whenever I get around to it. I so want it to be good, and I don't even know why! (Probably because of my memories of coffee in Italy, and with getting into coffee around the millennium, "Italian" was still held in the highest regard). I do fear that it'll be bad!

Interesting debate, "Is Italian coffee actually horrible?"?


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

CoolingFlush said:


> This is going to be a high-stakes tasting, whenever I get around to it. I so want it to be good, and I don't even know why! (Probably because of my memories of coffee in Italy, and with getting into coffee around the millennium, "Italian" was still held in the highest regard). I do fear that it'll be bad!
> 
> Interesting debate, "Is Italian coffee actually horrible?"?


 You may like it, but people on this forum aren't going to be interested in it because there isn't anything to be of interest. The world owes a lot to Italy and it's coffee culture but they've hit on a recipe and kept it that way for over half a century. The rest of the world has now caught up and largely passed them by. There are roughly the same number of people in Italy as Britain and they are much more likely to drink espresso, yet there's literally hundreds of speciality roasters in the UK, but very few in Italy. The cheap commodity roasters like Lavazza rule the roost there and the amazing speciality roasters like Gardelli do a lot of their business outside of Italy.

Why not order some Kimbo off Amazon and at the same time buy some beans direct from Gardelli and see which you prefer?


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

cold war kid said:


> Why not order some Kimbo off Amazon and at the same time buy some beans direct from Gardelli and see which you prefer?


 Goes to Gardelli website. Sees Gesha Village Microlot for €100. Cancels Italian roaster challenge.?



cold war kid said:


> The world owes a lot to Italy and it's coffee culture but they've hit on a recipe and kept it that way for over half a century. The rest of the world has now caught up and largely passed them by.


 You make a great point, I think you are probably right?. To borrow a concept from beer, though, the Germans and Czechs have contributed enormously to the culture of quality beer over the centuries, and still have some of the highest "per head" beer consumptions in Europe, with beer ingrained in society's as a commodity and a national duty, much like the Italian espresso in Italy. Beer too has moved on, and you may not get the latest habanero and peanut butter Imperial stout from breweries like Hacker-Pschorr or Ùnêtické, but few beer boffins would deny the brilliance of the simple, bold traditional drinks the old breweries still produce (and they continue to score highly on the ratings platforms). They are seen as classics, but in contrast it seems that "old" coffee does not receive this sort of reverence, in the world of espresso.?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

CoolingFlush said:


> You make a great point, I think you are probably right. To borrow a concept from beer, though, the Germans and Czechs have contributed enormously to the culture of quality beer over the centuries, and still have some of the highest "per head" beer consumptions in Europe, with beer ingrained in society's as a commodity and a national duty, much like the Italian espresso in Italy. Beer too has moved on, and you may not get the latest habanero and peanut butter Imperial stout from breweries like Hacker-Pschorr or Ùnêtické, but few beer boffins would deny the brilliance of the simple, bold traditional drinks the old breweries still produce (and they continue to score highly on the ratings platforms). They are seen as classics, but in contrast it seems that "old" coffee does not receive this sort of reverence, in the world of espresso.


There are a hell of alot more German & Czech breweries (some villages even have 2!) than Italian roasters (where a few giants have swallowed the market) so it's not the best comparison.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

https://en.bamberg.info/bier/ - 11 breweries in town, 60 in greater area, 400 beers

If done right, there's nothing wrong with Italian espresso served in Italy. Usually, and that's the main difference imho, Italian baristas are passionate about and proud of their work compared to their average counterparts throughout the world. For most people Italian espresso is strongly linked to holiday trips and therefore remembered as something special. You cannot simply recreate that at home by buying Italian beans, I guess.

We have experimented with an Italian-style blend and found that it would suit best for customers coming from supermarket beans. Once they've tried our other blend or a single origin, though, they wouldn't revert to Italian-style. ?


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

Thanks for letting me down gently guys!


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

ashcroc said:


> CoolingFlush said:
> 
> 
> > You make a great point, I think you are probably right
> ...


 The characterisation of the beer situation in the Czech rep and comparison to coffee in Italy is not accurate. There has been a massive closure of breweries following the acquisition and consolidation by the major international brewery groups in the 1990s with accompanying reduction in quality to up profits. The consequence has been the start up of a large number of micro and small breweries making mainly traditional type beer of good quality and forcing the big boys to up their game. While more types of locally brewed beer are now available , the traditional pilsner type remains by far the most popular. And very importantly, beer from the small breweries is also often cheaper than from the big boys.

in Italy, the masses continue to be satisfied with the available traditional coffee and as far as I know there is little clamour for something costing twice or thrice more, like it does here. If somebody was to make better coffee available at a lower price than now, things may be different.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Nikko said:


> The characterisation of the beer situation in the Czech rep and comparison to coffee in Italy is not accurate. There has been a massive closure of breweries following the acquisition and consolidation by the major international brewery groups in the 1990s with accompanying reduction in quality to up profits. The consequence has been the start up of a large number of micro and small breweries making mainly traditional type beer of good quality and forcing the big boys to up their game. While more types of locally brewed beer are now available , the traditional pilsner type remains by far the most popular. And very importantly, beer from the small breweries is also often cheaper than from the big boys.
> 
> in Italy, the masses continue to be satisfied with the available traditional coffee and as far as I know there is little clamour for something costing twice or thrice more, like it does here. If somebody was to make better coffee available at a lower price than now, things may be different.


 You can't make good respectable tasty specialty coffee for the same price as a robusta and commodity blend.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

cold war kid said:


> The average Italian would scoff at the very concept of third wave roasting and the prices charged, just like your average Brit is so used to drinking crap builders tea, they never actually buy the real stuff, just dust in a bag.


 A few months back I was in Bergamo and came across a newly opened speciality coffee shop. The only customers seemed to be tourists. The barista was very passionate about his coffee. However, he was selling a very scant V60 ( about 175ml) for 7 EUR. A standard shot is 1 EUR everywhere else.

The V60 was not great (nor terrible). They were importing greens from the UK from the likes of Falcon Speciality as they found it hard to source quality greens from Italy.

It will be interesting to see if it catches on.


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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

Hasi said:


> For most people Italian espresso is strongly linked to holiday trips and therefore remembered as something special. You cannot simply recreate that at home by buying Italian beans, I guess.


 Oh yes, you've hit a nail directly on the head there, Hasi! It is hard to compete with a wonderfully romantic holiday memory.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Ha, Yes! Best cappa I ever had was at Lake Garda in the 90's with a fresh hot pastry. Remember thinking OMG why can't we get this in the UK? ? They sprinkled ground coffee on top instead of chocolate I recall.

That HB thread is quite entertaining and I almost want to buy a bag of Kimbo ?


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

CoolingFlush said:


> Goes to Gardelli website. Sees Gesha Village Microlot for €100. Cancels Italian roaster challenge.


 Yes, the site is set up by default to show the most expensive coffee first, but if you scroll down, there's usually a few options between 10 and 15 euro


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

CoolingFlush said:


> To borrow a concept from beer, though, the Germans and Czechs have contributed enormously to the culture of quality beer over the centuries, and still have some of the highest "per head" beer consumptions in Europe, with beer ingrained in society's as a commodity and a national duty, much like the Italian espresso in Italy. Beer too has moved on, and you may not get the latest habanero and peanut butter Imperial stout from breweries like Hacker-Pschorr or Ùnêtické, but few beer boffins would deny the brilliance of the simple, bold traditional drinks the old breweries still produce (and they continue to score highly on the ratings platforms). They are seen as classics, but in contrast it seems that "old" coffee does not receive this sort of reverence, in the world of espresso.?


 The point you're omitting there, is that those beers are largely made with quality ingredients and with the focus on taste rather than using the cheapest ingredients they can get away with.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

lake_m said:


> ? They sprinkled ground coffee on top instead of chocolate


 Wouldn't that be more likely to cinnamon or Cocoa? Ground coffee would be an aquired taste to say the least.


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## Bacms (Jul 25, 2019)

Nikko said:


> in Italy, the masses continue to be satisfied with the available traditional coffee and as far as I know there is little clamour for something costing twice or thrice more, like it does here. If somebody was to make better coffee available at a lower price than now, things may be different.


I have to agree with this. I am not Italian but Portuguese where the situation is similar. An espresso can be had anywhere from as little as €0.40, quality is certainly better than most UK high street stores but not as good as speciality coffee. With a minimum wage of €550 convincing anyone that they should pay €2 or more for a coffee is madness and most people that brew at home have some kind of capsule system for convenience and use the cheapest capsule they can find since they all taste similar anyway when you add 6/8g of sugar. Just last month I brewed some rocko mountain from foundry for my parents as I wanted to test a grinder we inherited from a cafe and they found the coffee way too strong and preferred the cheap stuff from the supermarket

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

cold war kid said:


> Wouldn't that be more likely to cinnamon or Cocoa? Ground coffee would be an aquired taste to say the least.


It's not dissimilar to the ground coffee in instants like Kenji millicano or Nescafé azera.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> It's not dissimilar to the ground coffee in instants like Kenji millicano or Nescafé azera.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> You can't make good respectable tasty specialty coffee for the same price as a robusta and commodity blend.


 Good, respectable and tasty are subjective terms so quite meaningless. And almost by definition speciality would not be speciality if it did not come at an inflated price.

Anyway, the cost of beans, whether commodity or speciality, is insignificant to the final cost of the product in this country


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Nikko said:


> Anyway, the cost of beans, whether commodity or speciality, is insignificant to the final cost of the product in this country


 Or any other country.

Buying the actual beans at source isn't the end of the journey, both literally and figuratively, there are several companies that need to turn a profit otherwise they wouldn't be providing a service. Brokers, auctioneers, exporters, logistical companies ect. It can be a very long list before it reaches a roaster, who often is roasting in tiny batches compared to the industrial giants.

I understand where you are coming from with some pricing, but making a sweeping generalisation that it's inflated feels a bit harsh on the roasters, as if they are in some way taking advantage. The price is always whatever the market will bear with these sort of things. It's an extreme example, but it was mentioned in this thread that Gardelli is selling a Gesha microlot for 100 euros per 250g bag. That price isn't just the Italians ripping off unsuspecting rich Europeans. It's a minuscule amount of coffee and the demand in Japan and now the USA for the daddy of the infamous Panama Giesha is off the scale, with loads of people with very deep pockets, bidding to get a piece of the pie and that will indeed inflate the price, but most speciality coffees aren't like this. They're Arabica, which needs more care to protect from mould and disease with more people working to offer this protection. Also, a fair price is usually paid which far outstrips Fairtrade and Rainforest Alliance who don't use a model that encourages quality anyway. The cherries are picked by hand at their ripest, which often involves harvesting several times.

None speciality grade coffee is often Robusta which can be grown at low altitudes with built in disease resistance, on relatively level ground where machines are used once to rip every cherry from the tree, whether it's under ripe, over ripe or perfect. The ground is often needlessly polluted with pesticides to get a bumper crop in the short term with no thought of soil management as they simply move on when they've exhausted the land.Also, the companies buying it want the cheapest possible price regardless, meaning somebody somewhere will be taken advantage of, and that someone is probably going to be the poorest person in the chain.

I know which I'd rather buy before I even taste the coffee, but when I do I know that there will be no comparison at all unless I'm using the beans to over roast in the hope they'll cut through a mountain of milk or cream and in the process taste nothing like coffee by the time it reaches my lips.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Sorry, I was not talking about the cost of beans per se but about the cost of roasted beans in relation to the cost of the final product, ie cup of coffee.

Are you suggesting that beans bought by the likes of Illy are no different to those bought by instant coffee producers?


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Nikko said:


> Sorry, I was not talking about the cost of beans per se but about the cost of roasted beans in relation to the cost of the final product, ie cup of coffee.
> 
> Are you suggesting that beans bought by the likes of Illy are no different to those bought by instant coffee producers?


 Most people on here make their own coffee to there liking, so the cost of the final product will be almost the same as cost of beans. If you mean cost in UK cafes compared to Italian, you're right there's a big difference, but the economies of scale aren't at the same level in the UK, as well as there being higher rents, insurance, pensions and wages.

Illy is just about the only big brand Italian roaster who's coffee I'll drink and actually don't mind. They use 100% Arabica beans that aren't the best but are definitely getting there, but the last time I bought it, their cheapest one was £6.50 so they aren't really in the same market as Segafredo and Kimbo and their ilk. I wouldn't be surprised if Kimbo used beans no better than L'or Classique or any other upper market instant.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Bacms said:


> With a minimum wage of €550 convincing anyone that they should pay €2 or more for a coffee is madness
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


 Just out of interest, is that supposed to say 5.50 or is that 550 per 40 hours, 180 hours?


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## Bacms (Jul 25, 2019)

cold war kid said:


> Just out of interest, is that supposed to say 5.50 or is that 550 per 40 hours, 180 hours?


€550 per month. Although that is technically 14 months so €7700 per year

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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Bacms said:


> €550 per month. Although that is technically 14 months so €7700 per year
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


 I'm on a piss poor salary for the work I do and the hours I put , but I'm on almost three times that. I know a lot of things are cheaper over there, but that is quite shocking isn't it. Is that for 40 hours per week?


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## Bacms (Jul 25, 2019)

cold war kid said:


> I'm on a piss poor salary for the work I do and the hours I put , but I'm on almost three times that. I know a lot of things are cheaper over there, but that is quite shocking isn't it. Is that for 40 hours per week?


 Yes that is for 40 hours per week although I am apparently slightly out of date as that was the value for 2017. It is now on €600 per month (€8820 per year). Other countries in Europe have even lower salaries. But the main problem is that about 60% of the working population is on that salary which means taxation on anyone above that needs to rise pretty quickly which explains the large number of young people that have moved abroad for work.

People do more with less money as there is more "free" help between communities and housing and raw food tend to be way cheaper than the UK. Outside Porto and Lisbon you can for example get a full cooked meal (soup, main course, bread, dessert) for as low as €3 euros and you can rent a 2 bedroom house for less than €200 month (way less in some cases due to rent freezing for several years, my parents have some tenants on €25 per month).

So yeah you don't see a lot of Londinium and monoliths around let's put it that way...


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Sooooooo....sod it...had to try it....

A cheap 14g (completely non precision) basket and a rattling 58mm tamper I bought ages ago for the Gaggia Classic, 1kg bag of Kimbo Superiore (roast date 2nd Feb ?), not too careful on the prep. 14g dose, straight nine bar extraction, double spout, 1:2 ratio,- 23 seconds and there you have it. Tons of crema, classic smooth but totally nondescript flavour, but actually quite drinkable. Just needed the cigarette smoke and accordion player. ?


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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

lake_m said:


> Sooooooo....sod it...had to try it....
> 
> A cheap 14g (completely non precision) basket and a rattling 58mm tamper I bought ages ago for the Gaggia Classic, 1kg bag of Kimbo Superiore (roast date 2nd Feb ?), not too careful on the prep. 14g dose, straight nine bar extraction, double spout, 1:2 ratio,- 23 seconds and there you have it. Tons of crema, classic smooth but totally nondescript flavour, but actually quite drinkable. Just needed the cigarette smoke and accordion player. ?





lake_m said:


> Just needed the cigarette smoke and accordion player. ?


 You've just set the scene, and now we are all thinking of Napoli!??


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

lake_m said:


> 1kg bag of Kimbo Superiore





lake_m said:


> Tons of crema, classic smooth but totally nondescript flavour, but actually quite drinkable.


 This is superb! Next week I'm planning to get either some Kimbo Superior or some Segafredo Intermezzo (as an extreme counterpoint to my light & lemony Ethiopian Hambela). Have had some horrendous memories of Segafredo ground coffee though - can anybody advise or recommend?


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

I'd go for Kimbo really. It's the least evil of the 2


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

Picked up some Caffe Mauro De Luxe beans, 250g tin (not too big of a commitment!). Roasted 3 months ago, June 2019, packaged in a CO2 or Nitrogen can. 70% Arabia, 30% Robusta.

They are good. Quite a straightforward, singular taste - smooth Bouneville type cocoa powder, and a little spicy 'hot' note that I tend get with Brazil. Not an enormous amount of plush Crema from the Robusta, but more of a buttery mouth feel. No burnt rubber. Probably not as good as the commercial Brazilian blend I had fresh from a local roaster recently, but better than some UK espresso blends, and a very simple enjoyable shot. Might try something more rustic and less de luxe next!


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)




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## shimceltic (Oct 28, 2017)

Got this from the airport in palermo. Ended up ordering 2 bags online. Really good Italian espresso they do different more expensive beans that I haven't tried









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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

A family member who works in Sicily brought me a couple of 500g bags back this weekend. (Incidentally they cost €2.69 and €2.49!!!).

The first is Caffe Ionia Gran Bar Oro. Completely classic Italian espresso - deep reddish gold colour, very heavy body, boozy aroma with lots of cereal / melaniodin / baked flavours. The flavour is "coffee", but the main part of the experience is that it completely coats your mouth with dense, velvety crema. I think of it as an entirely different product from the quality, fresh, single origins I normally buy, they just both happen to be coffee! I will definitely enjoy getting through 500g of this.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

Next up is Gimoka Miscela Bar Caffe Si - absolutely awful. Jet black, tastes of varnish and coal. Undrinkable.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

I have another fairly good one here - Torrisi Bar Oro from Sicily.

Still need to dial it in a bit further, but it's another smooth, dark, simple one. Slightly less woody and deep than the Ionia, with a bit more sweetness which makes me think it has a slightly higher Arabica content. A little dark roasted for my preference, but really quite good in milk.

I'm glad I've got[IMG alt="" data-src=""]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png[/IMG][IMG alt="" data-src=""]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png[/IMG] some Rocko Mountain to alternate with it, but the Torrisi his the spot when you fancy a simple, robust shot.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)




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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

Next up: Manaresi Marrone blend, from Florence - 70% Arabica / 30% Robusta.

This is their "full bodied, intensive" blend, which most brands seem to offer, sitting beneath the Oro blend (I am trying in vain to make sense of the Italian way of naming beans!).

This one's another winner, definitely worth a try if you like an occasional "punch you in the face" Italian espresso. With the risk of sounding like a broken record: leather, brandy-like booze, a dry bitterness, and a hint of tobacco. This one really stays on your tongue for ages after drinking it!


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

CoolingFlush said:


> Next up: Manaresi Marrone blend, from Florence - 70% Arabica / 30% Robusta.
> 
> This is their "full bodied, intensive" blend, which most brands seem to offer, sitting beneath the Oro blend (I am trying in vain to make sense of the Italian way of naming beans!).
> 
> This one's another winner, definitely worth a try if you like an occasional "punch you in the face" Italian espresso. With the risk of sounding like a broken record: leather, brandy-like booze, a dry bitterness, and a hint of tobacco. This one really stays on your tongue for ages after drinking it!


 Where did you purchase this from?


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

lake_m said:


> Where did you purchase this from?


 I took a punt on it in TK Maxx - risky I know, but with a best before date of November 2021 I figured it was only a month old, and worth a go at £3.99


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

This has been a fun read!

LadyMorningFuel likes a medium Italian-ish blend, like the black Robin House blend or the Italian Job from rave. I might try a bargain bin one and see how it goes!


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

Morningfuel said:


> I might try a bargain bin one and see how it goes!


 Give it a bash and let us know! There is plenty of awful coffee available there for sure, but if you google carefully and happen upon a fresh(ish) pack, there is occasionally some good stuff.


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## andrewparkeruk (Feb 14, 2016)

An interesting topic, thank you, and highly relevant to me.

I am not particularly knowledgeable about coffee. Spouse and I drink cafetiere/French press coffee in the morning, which I grind using a Baratza Virtuoso (clockwork timer model) on the most coarse setting.

I have been buying beans from the same roaster for many years ... first knew them in the 1980s when I was a partner in a cafe. Their business has changed lots in the intervening years, it is the same in 'name only'. Over the past few years the product I order, their Continental Roast, has become increasingly light, to the point where I am (apparently) their only customer who does prefer something darker, and so I will be looking for a new supplier.

When I grind beans, I really dislike chaff; I think a measure of a roast suitable for me is one where there is little or no chaff residue.

Andrew


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## joe07768 (Jan 27, 2020)

The Kimbo deluxe bean is very good, everybody should try it once (like Blue Nun)


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## NikonGuy (Jul 31, 2014)

Just picked these up to try:-










I am going to be trying more Italian coffee's, as long as I can find a supplier that has a high turnover and thus the freshest beans!


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

NikonGuy said:


> Just picked these up to try:


 How did the Lavazza Super Crema go down? I actually have no experience of making espresso with Lavazza, but absolutely hate Lavazza Rossa pre-ground, so I'm disinclined to try their other stuff!


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## NikonGuy (Jul 31, 2014)

Not great if I'm honest, a little to much Robusta for me @ 40%, 20% is my ideal balance...

Have some of this to try also:-

https://www.lavazza.com/en/business/bar/coffee/classic-collection/specials/gran-riserva.html


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## NikonGuy (Jul 31, 2014)

I will add, I would take the Super Crema over any beans available in a supermarket! So a good backup bean.

The roasting date on my bag was beginning of Jan 2020 and was used 4 weeks from the roasting date.

I will let you know how I get on with Gran Riserva, roasting date is a little earlier being Dec 2019...


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

In answer to the OP, yes. I do like Italian espresso beans.

I'd much rather drink an espresso at home from my choice of Italian bean than pretty much anything I've ever had from any UK coffeeshop, whether it be a murdered attempt from Costa or Nero, to the overpriced vile wrongness being pumped out by hipsters in 3rd wave speciality coffee shops.

I've been caning TKMaxx for whatever I can get, whilst avoiding the 'Super Crema' types that tend to be robusta heavy. I dont mind a bit of quality robusta, it adds a dimension and I like it in espresso.

For milk drinks I'll go speciality everytime.


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## NikonGuy (Jul 31, 2014)

Spazbarista said:


> In answer to the OP, yes. I do like Italian espresso beans.
> 
> I'd much rather drink an espresso at home from my choice of Italian bean than pretty much anything I've ever had from any UK coffeeshop, whether it be a murdered attempt from Costa or Nero, to the overpriced vile wrongness being pumped out by hipsters in 3rd wave speciality coffee shops.
> 
> ...


 What are your Italian favourites?

Have to agree on that third wave hipster crap!


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## GaryM (Aug 1, 2016)

I recently posted my experience here...

https://coffeesnobs.com.au/general-coffee-related/30610-whats-wrong-lavazza-coffee.html

There is also a longish thread on these beans on Home Barista forums.

Sent from my MI 8 using Tapatalk


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

NikonGuy said:


> What are your Italian favourites?
> 
> Have to agree on that third wave hipster crap!


 I like the 3rd wave hipster crap in milk! Just not as a ristretto.

Favourite brands? Christ, I've tried loads. Saquella Gran Gusto is what's in the grinder and I like it. I really cant remember all the others. I'm really just after producing a faultless sweet syrupy ristretto from them, not really looking for complex flavours, nor is it demanding in any way. Just grind super fine and give the lightest of temps and off you go.


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## adamk (Jan 8, 2020)

Personally, for me, the whole coffee experience started straight with Italian espressos without sugar (thanks to my father's habits) and perhaps it is my taste buds which are way too accommodated after all this time but the notes of dark chocolate and toasted nuts enhanced by the darker roast along with the rich crema is what I am after. And I do love a good blend which includes some Robusta. Well selected beans and a good ratio can create a united flavour of wonderful harmony, which, Arabica only may not be able to provide. I also enjoy the the 100% Arabica Bold Roast from Illy as it is prepared in a fancy bar and pasticceria in my girlfriend's hometown close to Ravenna.

I seem to be really attached to Italian flavour profile - I tried many times third-wave style espressos in recommended places but I simply cannot take the fruitiness of the light roast, although I acknowledge that the coffee was fresh the baristas really know what they are doing. I also tried darker roasts at some speciality places and those I did enjoy . Nevertheless, for me, they did lack something that my Italian visits did not. I guess it all comes down to personal taste and what we are used to - but really neither side should say that the other is utter garbage. In most Italian bars I have been to, the baristas were really passionate. They may not use scales or fancy distribution techniques for each extraction but they do have highly forgiving state-of-the-art machines programmed to the optimal settings by an engineer of the represented coffee brand so they don't really have to. But still - they must know what they are doing as I could not find many places outside Italy where I could get back the same taste - no matter if the given place even had the same brand or machine. The continuous disappointment was exactly the reason why I got into this hobby: I wanted to recreate the authentic Italian espresso at home.

I agree that the main problem for home users is finding fresh beans. But it is wrong to paint a picture about Italian roasts based on the supermarket stale beans. Illy, for example, takes the innovation and research so seriously that they have their own university in Trieste. Moreover, Italy has many mini-roasteries and if you happen to live close to one of them you get very high quality and very fresh coffee every day. The only problem is that most of them only deliver to bars and in big quantities. This is just how the demand is in Italy. People in general do not buy coffee machines, they are people of tradition and they just go to the closest bar for their daily espresso. At home, they have the moka or a nespresso machine, just in case, and they are very happy with that.

For those who are looking for an authentic brand to try, let me offer one of my favourites: Mokador. It is a small roastery, located in Faenza, Emiglia-Romagna. They are the perfect example that quality Italian brands are still continuously improving their skills and their blends to advance on the never-ending journey towards a perfect. I always visit them for a fresh roast whenever I am in Italy and I am planning to try to jump the bar-only delivery barrier and make a deal with them to ship some fresh roast every two weeks at my cost. If there are other people interested that's even better as I may be able to convince them more easily. I can bring you some sample next time I visit (mid-April).
Also, if you are ever in Rome, try SciaScia caffe - again, really traditional but very high quality and they also have freshly roasted beans for you to take home!


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

adamkovacs1126 said:


> Well selected beans and a good ratio can create a united flavour of wonderful harmony


 That may be taken as blasphemy on here, but I have to agree, some Robusta can be a good addition.



adamkovacs1126 said:


> "In most Italian bars I have been to, the baristas were really passionate" They may not use scales or fancy distribution techniques for each extraction...But still - they must know what they are doing


 ???

"Mokador..."

Thanks for the recommendation, I've never tried that. Yes I'd be interested in getting some, whether it was a small group buy or just a personal import. I couldn't really commit to a repeat purchase though (I'm too busy drinking sour hipster third wave stuff most of the time!).


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## Rickv (Nov 18, 2019)

I'd be in for buying some as a one off initially.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NikonGuy (Jul 31, 2014)

Rickv said:


> I'd be in for buying some as a one off initially.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Put me down for a bag.

I love Italian coffee and that is what got me into this world in the first place, hence wanting to revisit it!

Do you follow this recipe?:-

http://comitcaf.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Disciplinare-Caffè-Espresso-Italiano-Tradizionale-2018.pdf


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## NikonGuy (Jul 31, 2014)

GaryM said:


> I recently posted my experience here...
> 
> https://coffeesnobs.com.au/general-coffee-related/30610-whats-wrong-lavazza-coffee.html
> 
> ...


 Interesting read, did you really have to pull 14g/20g/40 sec? I have some left over Super Crema in the freezer, I will give it a go!


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## adamk (Jan 8, 2020)

CoolingFlush said:


> Yes I'd be interested in getting some, whether it was a small group buy or just a personal import





Rickv said:


> I'd be in for buying some as a one off initially.





NikonGuy said:


> Put me down for a bag.


 Drop me a pm guys later on and I will do my best to bring you back some sample bags?



NikonGuy said:


> Do you follow this recipe?


 I use the recipe of my contact at Mokador (who happens to be the 2019 Espresso Italiano Champion) which is indeed in the range for the espresso Italiano tradizionale recipe:

- 15g in and 50ml out (I do it traditionally and split it into two singles) - I know it is dangerous to talk in volumes because of the crema and I am going to ask him to weigh the extracted liquid to make sure I get the same, so far I have been measuring the volume with a cup but weight will be obviously more consistent

- 4-5s of pre-infusion and 25s of extraction time

- 90 degrees Celsius brewing temperature

- 9 bar brewing pressure

It has lovely 'tiger stripes' in the cup:


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## adamk (Jan 8, 2020)

Forgot to mention - this is the recipe for their signature blend, the Gran Miscela but I think it generally applies to blends with 90/10 or 80/20 Arabica/Robusta ratio with a medium-dark roast. If you move to darker blends, the recipe changes. For instance, Illy advises the following recipes for a single espresso:
Classico (medium roast):
- 7g in, 23-25ml out

- 92C brewing temperature

-5s of pre-infusion and 25s of extraction

- 9 bar

Intenso (dark roast)

-7g in, 18-20ml out

- 94C brewing temperature

-5s of pre-infusion and 25s of extraction

- 9 bar

Forte (very dark roast):

-7g in, 13-15ml out

- 96C brewing temperature

-5s of pre-infusion and 25s of extraction

- 9 bar

You can see the pattern of smaller yield (more ristretto-like extraction) and temperature increase with darker roast. Indeed, the espresso you get in Neapolitan bars (the region of the darkest roast and strongest blends), is more like a small amount of intense, creamy and syrupy liqueur.


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## NikonGuy (Jul 31, 2014)

Thanks Adam.

My recipe is similar to Mokador's, I always use volume for my Italian shots.

Surprised that Illy ramp up the temps for darker roast's I tend to ramp down...

Maybe they are trying to compensate for the shorter extraction time.


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## adamk (Jan 8, 2020)

Indeed, my guess is that it has to do something with the fact that they also decrease the yield. I would love to experiment with the darker roasts but the problem is that their 250g packaging does not keep the beans fresh enough as it works differently than the big metal tins they sell to bars - the latter even has a special key to open it and it is a regulation from Illy that they have to let it stay open for 8 hours before they are allowed to use it. I am considering to buy one (they are available online: https://www.maxicoffee.com/en-gb/illy-intenso-coffee-beans-15kg-drum-p-87752.html) and get a key from eBay or ask for it in an Illy bar next time I am in Italy...


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## NikonGuy (Jul 31, 2014)

I weighed a couple of shots of Super Crema stopped @ 50ml inc Crema...

Total Volume: 50ml

Brew Weight: 34-36 grams

It will be interesting what weights your contact at Mokador advises.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

Having enjoyed the Manaresi Marrone blend, I came across a 250g bag of their Oro blend and couldn't resist trying it. It has P45 11 21 stamped on, so I'm guessing it's best before Nov 2021, potentially roasted Nov 2019, so not particularly fresh...


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

On inspecting the beans, I'm impressed by the uniformity of their appearance and size. They have the beginnings of a slight sheen, but are not 'oily'.








The coffee behaves like slightly old coffee - I still haven't finished tightening the grind, finer and finer! Nevertheless it has given me a couple of ok espressos. Thick, heavy body, a very monotone flavour of strong dark chocolate. Slightly too carbonic - not ashy but a bit of an overdone toast taste. In a cappuccino however, it tasted immense! So rich and powerful.








I might need a couple more shots to have it fully dialed in, but in summary I'd say that it's a bit plain and dark as espresso, but incredible as a traditional cappuccino. ☕???


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## NikonGuy (Jul 31, 2014)

What dose / yield are you finding works best with that bag?


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I'm in Bologna for a few days next week. Might try and buy a few bags of bar coffee


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

Out of interest have any of you who like an 'Italian coffee' tried the Italian blend that they sell at Aldi?

Not sure I had the Italian one but I did try one of the others when I was completely out of beans, they were roasted within the month and were not too terrible IMO in milk.


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## adamk (Jan 8, 2020)

Spazbarista said:


> I'm in Bologna for a few days next week. Might try and buy a few bags of bar coffee


 Bologna is a lovely city! Some local roasters I tried in bars are Attibassi and Filicori Zecchini and I have also heard that Caffe Terzi is good although I have not tried it myself... anyway you'll have no problem finding some good fresh beans there!


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Yeah...but not sure where I can buy 1kg bags.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

adamkovacs1126 said:


> Some local roasters I tried in bars are Attibassi and Filicori Zecchini


 I have a bag of Attibassi Crema d'Oro lined-up, I'll stick a review on here when I get around to trying it.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

NikonGuy said:


> What dose / yield are you finding works best with that bag?


 My Pontevecchio machine has a weird size portafilter, so YMMV. Doses range from 12 to 17g and my 'standard' is 16g. I used 15g of this, didn't weigh the output but keep it 'short', at less than 2 full lever pulls. Grinding finely is a must.


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## adamk (Jan 8, 2020)

Spazbarista said:


> Yeah...but not sure where I can buy 1kg bags.


 If you cannot find a place selling them in-store you can tell the bar manager you loved their coffee and you would like to take a bag home as souvenir... I am sure they will gladly provide one.
I don't know where the roasteries of Attibassi or Filicori Zecchini are located exactly but if you look them up I am 100% sure you can buy some freshly roasted beans from there.


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## adamk (Jan 8, 2020)

CoolingFlush said:


> I have a bag of Attibassi Crema d'Oro lined-up, I'll stick a review on here when I get around to trying it.


 Where did you find them? They do not seem to be a brand big enough to appear in UK supermarkets ?


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

HowardSmith said:


> Out of interest have any of you who like an 'Italian coffee' tried the Italian blend that they sell at Aldi?
> 
> Not sure I had the Italian one but I did try one of the others when I was completely out of beans, they were roasted within the month and were not too terrible IMO in milk.


 I've tried it. The roast was too developed and the beans were very poor.


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## GaryM (Aug 1, 2016)

NikonGuy said:


> Interesting read, did you really have to pull 14g/20g/40 sec? I have some left over Super Crema in the freezer, I will give it a go!


Yep. That's what we've been drinking and enjoying.

Sent from my MI 8 using Tapatalk


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

I am trying a bag of black Robin blend, which is a lot like an Italian style espresso.

https://blackrobincoffee.co.uk/shop?olsPage=products%2Fblack-robin-blend

They don't roast in house, they source from York I believe...

Anyway, dark roast. Slight sheen on the beans which I'm very not used to - I usually go for a medium-dark with no oil at all. Backed off the grind a bit as darker roasts are more forgiving and it does a good, chocolate and hazelnut espresso. It's dark and fairly bitter - definitely made for milk drinks, not enjoying subtle fruity notes.

But I am discovering I love coffee like this. I really love light roasts in immersion and pourover brews, but for espresso there is something really wonderful about the smooth, syrupy texture of a good latte.









Amateur at latte art, mind...


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

Here is Attibassi Crema d'Oro:








(Can you imagine a modern roaster coming out with the matte/gloss combo packaging, featuring a baroque coat of arms?!?)

It is their blend with "a small amount" of Robusta. They also appear to do a more Robusta-heavy blend (Miscela 1918), and an Arabica blend (Sublime 100%).

Unfortunately the roast date on this is 11/10/19, so they are old?!

I was initially going to write a fairly scathing review of these, mainly because they are just SO DARK. They're almost black, and whilst dialling in, they tasted of 'black'!









Here they are next to some medium roasted beans.

However, i have since got the grind fine enough to produce a short, syrupy ristretto, and during the week have also tried Waitrose Sumatra Mandheling, which I found to be even darker and absolutely horrible, with lots of acrid off flavours!









(Waitrose Mandheling with oil slick).

So the Attibassi has come out ok, it's a very dark, very (very) simple espresso. There's not much else to say about the taste. Maybe it illustrates haw it's difficult to get a bad espresso in Italy - I'd say the Waitrose Mandheling is an overtly bad espresso. If you like dark shots with no complexity but no "off" flavours (and if you can get a fresher bag), you might like this.


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## struttura.originaria (Nov 20, 2019)

I'm Italian and I can say that the typical and traditional Italian espresso is one of the worst coffees someone can ever drink. I don't appreciate it at all. The less tragic is Puro Milani in my experience.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

Can anybody who has tried them warn me off these Lidl beans? I am due to buy some quality coffee tomorrow from a local roster, but being in lockdown I have struggled to access Italian made beans, and I see these are imported from somewhere in Lucca.


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

CoolingFlush said:


> View attachment 36697
> 
> 
> (Waitrose Mandheling with oil slick).


 Good LORD.


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## Lterzo (Jun 9, 2020)

struttura.originaria said:


> I'm Italian and I can say that the typical and traditional Italian espresso is one of the worst coffees someone can ever drink. I don't appreciate it at all. The less tragic is Puro Milani in my experience.


 I like illy taste so far.Nice arabica blend.Any idea what sort of beans are inside?


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## struttura.originaria (Nov 20, 2019)

Lterzo said:


> I like illy taste so far.Nice arabica blend.Any idea what sort of beans are inside?


 A blend made with all the single origins they have.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

struttura.originaria said:


> I'm Italian and I can say that the typical and traditional Italian espresso is one of the worst coffees someone can ever drink. I don't appreciate it at all. The less tragic is Puro Milani in my experience.


When I was in Italy and had an espresso, it was surprisingly drinkable. I actually quite enjoyed it, as a one off drink.

But yeah, it's so vastly different from a well extracted light roast it becomes a different drink.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

New coffee time:

Miscela Selezionata from Caffe Ginevra. It's kind of their 'premium' blend, but being a Sicilian roaster is far from a light roasted 100% Arabica: "A higher Arabica bean content gives this blend a more Northern Italian coffee style while the little Robusta keeps it Sicilian", they proclaim.

Nice packaging:







...although I decanted into a sealable, valved bag. (Unless you buy 1kg, this blend comes decanted from sealed valved bags into smaller paper bags).

The beans are dark and a little oily:









"They smell like cigars" said my wife, disapprovingly. If you like cigars, then great! If not, you could call it "earthy" or "toasty"!


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

I can't say that the appearance of the beans screamed 'quality', although you could say that they've just been taken beyond second crack, and have, well, cracked:


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

However, on pulling a couple of shots it was clear that they are fresh and of good quality:









20 minutes later, and I can still taste this! I pulled two shots on the Pontevecchio, and settled on 14.5g in / 22g out. So, so strong, but so smooth. Tobacco, figs, treacle. I'm looking forward to a week of drinking this, but it certainly wouldn't convert any modern single origin fans to darker, Italian espresso. Might try their Silver blend next.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

There's a great Italian Coffee thread currently going on at Home Barista, about chasing a particular taste: https://www.home-barista.com/coffees/hunt-for-best-italian-roasted-coffee-beans-t64387.html

As well as encouraging me to bring the brew ratio even closer to 1:1, it has brought to my attention that most of my recent Italian beans have been from the South of Italy. I'm now really keen to seek out some examples of the Northern Italian style, which the thread seems to broadly describe as more lightly roasted. In particular, some of the Hausbrandt blends are praised.

Apart from patchy availability on eBay and Amazon, it can be difficult to source this type of coffee - does anybody know of a particular shop where I can get this sort of coffee?

I have looked at Espresso International and they have a wide selection, but the minimum order is £50, and I don't think I could keep 3kg of beans sitting around going stale (or taking up precious real estate in the freezer)!


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

It's time I got around to trying some illy. Having watched the famous Illy documentary...

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/34312-very-interesting-documentary/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=472652&embedComment=472652&embedDo=findComment#comment-472652

...I had always meant to get some. I've tried some Lavazza Espresso Italiano recently, and was really not impressed by it - dark, dull and flat. Illy seems to view itself as the superior coffee giant, so I was curious. The best roast date I could find was 20/11/19, purchased a mere 7 months later, although I was confident that they'd "behave fresh" for at least the first couple of days.








Checking out the beans I was optimistic - matte, mid brown and entirely uniform. No Robusta, and apparently a blend of 9 (NINE!) Arabicas - the good ol' forgotten art of Miscela!

After a slightly fast first shot, I soon had a good espresso:








Using a recipe somewhere around 16g in 22g out, this stuff is incredibly sweet-tasting. It is a completely different product from the dark roasted Robusta blends I have had previously, and whilst it lacks their voluminous, velvety punch it tastes a lot closer to the fresh, light coffee we know and love. It's a little one dimensional, but this really allows the sweet, balanced, chocolatey taste to shine.








I would not hesitate to buy this again, and with people coming over for a socially distanced gathering today, I expect to it to be a crowd pleaser that will be gone before the end of the weekend. At £5/250g on offer, it's just not cheap enough to really tempt any fresh/local devotees away from their regular beans. For anybody interested in 'Traditional Italian' however, it's definitely a cut above the average Bar blend, and I can see why Illy speak so highly of themselves!


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## campachoochoo (Jun 13, 2020)

CoolingFlush said:


> <img alt="Screenshot_20200607-130755.thumb.png.fc536b36e46f8c2dac5a26deee18455a.png" data-fileid="40823" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2020_06/Screenshot_20200607-130755.thumb.png.fc536b36e46f8c2dac5a26deee18455a.png" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">Can anybody who has tried them warn me off these Lidl beans? I am due to buy some quality coffee tomorrow from a local roster, but being in lockdown I have struggled to access Italian made beans, and I see these are imported from somewhere in Lucca.


This probably says more about my lack of taste than anything else but I really enjoy these! Compared to others you've tasted through this thread, I think you'll find them similar to some of the lighter, more matte beans you've tried.

I don't have a great espresso set-up but find I can make consistent, quaffable drinks with this. Solid as espresso with plenty of crema (I assume crema size is proportional to roast level as well as freshness?) and nice with milk.

If you decide to give them a go next time they're available I recommend spending the extra £1 on the Tradizionale over the Magnifico robusta blend. The latter was too smoky and harsh for me.


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## TRatcliffe (Jun 15, 2020)

After reading this I'm getting an old school Italian espresso blend next. I do believe that unless there are 'off' notes as you might categorise them in wine/whisky tasting then it's just personal preference surely?

I get that some of these blends will be a bit of a gamble because they might be low cost/low quality and burnt to cover the flaws, but there's got to be some cheap reliable workmanlike ones out there.

To carry on the whisky analogy from earlier, I think there's a time and a place for everything. I'd much rather have a simplistic cheap bourbon on a Thursday after a hard day at work and for guests than waste some obscure, unique and challenging single malt I spent a small fortune on.

I also get that people can be very defensive of their hobbies and what they consider to be essential! But at the end of the day we're all down our own rabbit holes and the lines between objective and subjective are blurred somewhat.

... Not to mention I have an inherent distrust of anything that's trendy.


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## TRatcliffe (Jun 15, 2020)

CoolingFlush said:


> However, on pulling a couple of shots it was clear that they are fresh and of good quality:
> 
> View attachment 41109
> 
> ...


 I think I'm going to take a punt on the Ginevra beans after this. Don't worry I won't hold you personally responsible if I don't like it. I really like the look of their espresso cups too.

Does anyone have any experience with Lucaffe? Seen them in a few places online.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

TRatcliffe said:


> I'd much rather have a simplistic cheap bourbon on a Thursday...


 This stuck a chord with me - I do really value the simplicity and reliability of the best Italian beans, both in terms of getting a tasty shot with minimal effort on a Monday at 6AM, and in terms of freeing me from responsibility towards a precious product, like your unique and challenging single malt. I do love to try fresh, high scoring single origins a lot of the time, and I realise that not all of them are necessarily challenging, demanding products, but I appreciate having (the good) Italian beans as a comfortable, familiar destination, to reset my palette and renew my curiosity for something more distinctive.

Again, this is all totally subjective personal taste and I'm just diving into this little niche for as long as it feeds my love of coffee.



TRatcliffe said:


> I think I'm going to take a punt on the Ginevra beans after this


 Go for it! I think I have pretty explicitly described what they are, so full disclosure, you will not be detecting any lingering hints of green apple or sea buckthorn! I only got to try them because they have an outlet down the road from me, but I will definitely buy their Black blend again.

- No experience of Lucaffe, sorry.


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## islandlad (Feb 8, 2019)

Has anyone had any luck with freshly roasted italian style (dark arabica+robusta) beans suitable for ristrettos? Not looking for anything complex, perfectly happy with simple rich, heavy, and sweet ristrettos with the very faintest hint of acidity.

I've tried kimbo extreme and saquella gran gusto which despite being a year away from their best before date, tasted VERY stale. Swore to myself that I wouldn't throw any more money at beans without a roast date.

Have since tried Waitrose Italian beans (I know, contrary to the above, but I ran out of beans and had to resort to a supermarket dash). Weirdly, got the best result from them vs kimbo and saquella. They did however seem to go stale very quickly (picked them up on a Sunday, not tasting very good by Thursday despite sealing in a ziplock bag).

Following that, picked up a bag of Black Cat's Chocolate Point. Am a bit disappointed as I find it too bright and acidic and probably lighter roasted than what I'm after.

Hence my question.

Has anyone say got experience with Coffee Compass Mediterranean Mocha or Hill and Valley blends as a comparison?


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

islandlad said:


> Has anyone say got experience with Coffee Compass Mediterranean Mocha or Hill and Valley blends as a comparison?


 I think a lot of people here will have experience of these beans. If nobody is forthcoming, have a search on the forum. CC tend to roast on the darker side.



islandlad said:


> Following that, picked up a bag of Black Cat's Chocolate Point.


 I too have a kg of Chocolate Point at the moment - I think it makes a great espresso, but I agree, it is very lightly roasted and gives a relatively bright shot (within the scale of "traditional Italian" espresso). Her it is next to some Ginevra, for colour comparison:








Managed to get these sort of shots from Chocolate Point:








The other coffee I have going on at the moment is Kimbo Prestige, with a roast date of 18/10/19, use by 7/4/21!! (I watched the Whole Latte Love Kimbo video before deciding to try this particular one)￼. This makes a good shot, but it's pretty dark and plain, not to much else to say about it.

Very light beans, very dark beans - you might see where this is going...

Yes, against all my instincts, this week I have been drinking a 60/40 blend of Chocolate Point and Kimbo Prestige, and it's pretty good! I will drink the remainder of the Chocolate Point straight, but it has been a nice little experiment.

To get back to your original question, freshness in Italian roasted coffees is the biggest obstacle to getting a good shot, although generally you can get a few days of good shots from old beans if they're packaged in a protective gas. I split them into 4 x 250g's and freeze 3 of them, on opening. In terms of taste, it will be personal to you, which blends you prefer. I find that most of the overly dark Italian roasts improve greatly as a ristretto - slightly under extracted to mute the bitterness and accentuate any acidity they may have hiding away!


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@islandlad - Do like CC, you can't really go wrong with their medium roast espresso range if you like chocolate flavours.

Mediterranean Mocha was nice, but the Brighton Lanes blend was the winner with me and my wife last year for espresso/milk drinks when we had it.

They offer a discount for forum members as well 👍


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

CoolingFlush said:


> It's time I got around to trying some illy. Having watched the famous Illy documentary...
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/34312-very-interesting-documentary/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=472652&embedComment=472652&embedDo=findComment#comment-472652
> 
> ...


 It was tin of Illy that got me going on the coffee espress..

I liked it, really liked it tbh and would be happy to have some again.

I did notice they aged quickly though.


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

Probably well aged before you opened it


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

I thought I would post a quick update, with this thread having been quiet for a few months.

In one sense, I feel like I have now explored Italian espresso pretty completely, and don't want to keep repeating myself ad infinitum. With that said though, I still like to have some simple, reliable Italian beans in my house AT ALL TIMES! It's just that they have now become more of as commodity than a novelty.

During full lockdown, one of my usual sources, TK Maxx was shut down, and for a month or so after it returned, they weren't doing fresh/food products. A few weeks ago however, they seemed to have a sudden influx of fresh Italian and Spanish espresso.

The first one I had was Saquella Gran Gusto, which had been roasted the previous month.








This was the archetypal "fit and forget" Italian espresso; it just banged out 1kg worth of rich, creamy ristrettos, with zero input from me! The taste was basic, linear, smooth cocoa "coffee" taste. In spite of that, I think that this would be the blend I'd recommend if trying to sell the Italian espresso at home experience - so easy and dependable.

The other one I've tried recently is Attibassi Sublime 100% Arabica.







This one was also just a month past roast. I was apprehensive about having no robusta whatsoever (!), but this gives a really bright, balanced espresso. This is one I'd recommend for an Italo-skeptic espresso drinker; it has some nice acidity, and is closer to speciality coffee than you might think.








On the topic of Arabia/Robusta, I joined in with James Hoffman's World's Largest Coffee Tasting, and had the extreme displeasure of cupping the Ugandan Robusta featured in that! Before the reveal, I assumed that they had put in some lowest quality commercial Kenco or something, but to find that this was supposedly some of the best Robusta available was quite enlightening. I've always been ready to defend Robusta, and genuinely do appreciate it's judicious use (<20%) in Italian coffee, but I've had to adjust my opinion slightly, to say that Robusta on its own is truly disgusting!

One final thing I'd noticed last week, was this piece about why Espresso still costs €1 in Italy https://perfectdailygrind.com/2020/10/why-does-espresso-still-cost-1-euro-in-italy-price/

Ciao!


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Good posts.

I am Half way though a bag of Levazza super-crema and it's been better for me than some of the freshly roasted stuff I've bought.

Its ok. And that's ok.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I like coffee in Italy. As an analogy I view it like I view Yorkshire Gold tea. Just really hits the spot, with no challenging flavours. I still like quality leaf teas, but I strongly dislike Earl Grey and Lapsang Souchong....the hipster 3rd wave teas. Might be interesting, might be different but it tastes like shit to me. Other people like it, and I'm not going to tell them they dont like it, or that they are wrong. That would be bigotry.

Every now and again I long for that warm, spicy Italian ristretto taste, but ironically to get it you either have to luck out at TKMaxx, or pay more for it from a European supplier like Maxicoffee than you would for quality UK roasted beans.

For my tastebuds I find the espresso method to be highly unsuited to highly flavoured beans. Its bearable if you dilute it with milk, but on it's own it's a cup of gash.


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