# Is the LR a pressure profile machine?



## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

I've been watching the development of the Decent espresso machine with interest. Looking at the graphs of flow and pressure it occured to me that on an LR if you require a shot of about 34g the lever will only be about half way through its travel, meaning that the pressure at the end of the shot is still about 9 bar, instead of trailing off as can be arranged on the Decent or the Vesuvius or indeed and old L1.


----------



## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

NickR said:


> I've been watching the development of the Decent espresso machine with interest. Looking at the graphs of flow and pressure it occured to me that on an LR if you require a shot of about 34g the lever will only be about half way through its travel, meaning that the pressure at the end of the shot is still about 9 bar, instead of trailing off as can be arranged on the Decent or the Vesuvius or indeed and old L1.


All levers have a declining pressure profile as a result of the spring action.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ATZ said:


> All levers have a declining pressure profile as a result of the spring action.


I don't think that's the area Nick was questioning was it?


----------



## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

I wouldn't consider a spring lever a pressure profile machine. That usually assumes you can control the pressure throughout the extraction. It does have a built in pressure profile though! It's just not easily changeable, which is what I'd expect from a pressure profiling machine.

You could replace a spring, assist the lever, control preinfusion time/pressure... that gives me enough to play with my own LR.


----------



## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> I don't think that's the area Nick was questioning was it?


The question is stated in the thread title? That would infer he's confused as to how levers work.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Answer- no

It can only produce pressure profiles withing the variables the machine has.

Example - can't do flat profiles etc etc.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

NickR said:


> I've been watching the development of the Decent espresso machine with interest. Looking at the graphs of flow and pressure it occured to me that on an LR if you require a shot of about 34g the lever will only be about half way through its travel, meaning that the pressure at the end of the shot is still about 9 bar, instead of trailing off as can be arranged on the Decent or the Vesuvius or indeed and old L1.


It really would help if you did your research nick instead of random shite about a machine you have not got, here are some facts for you to chew over.

1 The bar pressure on a single spring, just like in your l1 and in the Lr does not start at 9bar (measure it you will see)

2. The pressure transducer on the the new LR effectively means you have a lot of control over temperature and pre infusion pressure.

3. If you know what you are doing you can do all sorts of things on a lever with regards to controlling pressure during an extraction.


----------



## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> It really would help if you did your research nick instead of random shite about a machine you have not got, here are some facts for you to chew over.
> 
> 1 The bar pressure on a single spring, just like in your l1 and in the Lr does not start at 9bar (measure it you will see)
> 
> ...


I was thinking mainly of the tail end of a shot, if your pulling the shot glass away from the machine when there is still quite a high flow rate, an important part of the profile has been lost.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Again do some research and see what the start and finish pressure is on a lever. Also the extra shot volume allows you to do bigger doses, so a 20 g shot is a doddle in the LR. The fact is you will still have a declining pressure profile on the LR


----------



## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

Would be really interesting to see what the pressure is when we choose to pull the cup away, ie for me usually 33-36grams out. Excuse the newbie question but how would one measure it?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Here's a clip - not of a Londinium - but gives an idea of the pressure profile associated with lever espresso machines.


----------



## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)




----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Here's a clip - not of a Londinium - but gives an idea of the pressure profile associated with lever espresso machines.


It is a londinium

I made that clip

And the machine says "londinium " on it


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Should have gone to Specsavers then.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Should have gone to Specsavers then.


So many errors recently Patrick, I am starting worry about you


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

My excuse is spending too much time watching news feeds - more important things going on at the moment.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Needn't worry Dave - I haven't gone over to Mellow Birds just yet.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Needn't worry Dave - I haven't gone over to Mellow Birds just yet.


Even the yet in that sentence is alarming


----------



## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Here's a clip - not of a Londinium - but gives an idea of the pressure profile associated with lever espresso machines.


Really interesting to see the decline. So this throws OPs comments out of the window


----------



## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Here's a clip - not of a Londinium - but gives an idea of the pressure profile associated with lever espresso machines.


This is an interesting clip, but would be even more interesting if it were an LR pulling a 34g shot in an appropriate time. It looks like an L1 pulling a shot in approx 15 sec and no idea of shot volume, so in no way invalidates my question.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

NickR said:


> This is an interesting clip, but would be even more interesting if it were an LR pulling a 34g shot in an appropriate time. It looks like an L1 pulling a shot in approx 15 sec and no idea of shot volume, so in no way invalidates my question.


To measure the pressure you use a scace, you cant pull a shot with a coffee in it....it measures pressure at the group delivered by pump etc.

http://clean-machine.com.au/Coffee-Machine-Group-Temp-and-Pressure-Measurement-Device.html


----------



## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

NickR said:


> This is an interesting clip, but would be even more interesting if it were an LR pulling a 34g shot in an appropriate time. It looks like an L1 pulling a shot in approx 15 sec and no idea of shot volume, so in no way invalidates my question.


It's a scace, there is no coffee being "pulled" as such.

If I pull a 34g shot on my lever, I would reach 34grams towards the end of the lever travel and the pressure decline. What are you basing the assertion on that a 34g shot would be half way through the lever travel?

With levers you toss out the standard x amount of coffee in 25-30 seconds as this came from the use of pump driven machines.

Again I think you're confused as to how levers work.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The pressure will decline as the lever moves and the puck extracts, how much I don't know, I doubt it will stay stable in your example Nik as you would I think have to hold on to the lever to keep it at constant pressure.

So you have two questions .

Is it a pressure profiling machine > kinda it deliver pressure profile with variables that you can manipulate to some degree by longer pre infusion , holding the lover etc.

Is it a machine that can deliver any pressure profile - No

Does it stay at 9 bar in your example - my money would be no, the pressure is declining at a slower rate perhaps. Does it mean it the LR is not measuring a pressure profile , course not.

I think people who use the LR , want a simple machine that delivers in the cup, without fussing over what it is doing at what point in the lever progression.

What a scace would tell you is where the pressure is declining as the lever progresses- forget the 1:2 ratio over x time, that's not what a scace is measuring .

Some of the decent users have a LR profile set up, be interesting to actually see what that is and where they got that from @Xpenno


----------



## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Here's a blog post that that's probably worth a read @NickR

https://comingsooncoffee.wordpress.com/2014/03/02/our-thoughts-on-spring-lever-machine-2014-feburary/

On the image attached you can see the pressure profile of the traditional Bosco lever group. The spring action raises the pressure to around 7 bar initially, which then declines to around 3 bar by the end. Boiler pressure would pre infuse the coffee on cocking the lever at around 1.1bar.

The difference with an LR is it pumps the water to the lever chamber, rather than pre infuse at boiler pressue, so you can vary the PI up or down. Many people raise the PI to around 3.5 bar to take advantage of modern light roasted beans. However the "pressure profile" of the lever would be the same as the image below as this is due to the physical action of the spring.

So no, the LR is not a profiling machine but you can change parameters such as PI pressure and how long you stay at peak pressure by holding the lever etc.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I think nickr is just tugging at a few people on here, this thread was started after a response to him inferring that the LR is ridiculously expensive for a simple machine, however the LR is no longer as simple as the L1 that preceded it. It is now like a mini L1 (one group commercial) whereby the transducer acts like a pressure reducing valve similar to the line pressure on the commercial. I think Nick must think that the components cost nothing nor does the r&d involved. Alas this all costs and as such drives the cost up of the machine.

The LR is currently the most advanced of commercially available lever machines for the home, it is capable of 6 bar flat coffee shots (just set pre infusion to 6 bar pressure and let it run on the rotary pump) It is capable of temperature adjustment, it is capable of variable pre infusion pressure. But most of all it is still capable of the basics of the original design, a simple lever shot.

Is it specifically a pressure profiling machine, no, can you mess about and do lots of interesting things on it, yes. Is it for you Nick? Maybe, but just buy the decent espresso and have complete controllability, you never know it might last as long as the Londinium, but I doubt it!


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> I think nickr is just tugging at a few people on here, this thread was started after a response to him inferring that the LR is ridiculously expensive for a simple machine, however the LR is no longer as simple as the L1 that preceded it. It is now like a mini L1 (one group commercial) whereby the transducer acts like a pressure reducing valve similar to the line pressure on the commercial. I think Nick must think that the components cost nothing nor does the r&d involved. Alas this all costs and as such drives the cost up of the machine.
> 
> The LR is currently the most advanced of commercially available lever machines for the home, it is capable of 6 bar flat coffee shots (just set pre infusion to 6 bar pressure and let it run on the rotary pump) It is capable of temperature adjustment, it is capable of variable pre infusion pressure. But most of all it is still capable of the basics of the original design, a simple lever shot.
> 
> Is it specifically a pressure profiling machine, no, can you mess about and do lots of interesting things on it, yes. Is it for you Nick? Maybe, but just buy the decent espresso and have complete controllability, you never know it might last as long as the Londinium, but I doubt it!


/\ This.. /\

As far as I see it.. Are lever machines pressure profiling? Yes.. Are the profiles repeatable? No.. Simple answer is you control the pressure by using the lever., by holding it back or helping it on a spring machine or 100% on a non spring machine (La Pavoni etc). Unless you are a cyborg, you will rarely repeat a shot 100%. If you want a pressure profiling machine, buy one (Decent, Vesuvius etc). You'll end up getting bored paying with them and stick to a few profiles in the end anyway - one being a profile that replicates a lever anyway


----------



## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> I think nickr is just tugging at a few people on here, this thread was started after a response to him inferring that the LR is ridiculously expensive for a simple machine, however the LR is no longer as simple as the L1 that preceded it. It is now like a mini L1 (one group commercial) whereby the transducer acts like a pressure reducing valve similar to the line pressure on the commercial. I think Nick must think that the components cost nothing nor does the r&d involved. Alas this all costs and as such drives the cost up of the machine.
> 
> The LR is currently the most advanced of commercially available lever machines for the home, it is capable of 6 bar flat coffee shots (just set pre infusion to 6 bar pressure and let it run on the rotary pump) It is capable of temperature adjustment, it is capable of variable pre infusion pressure. But most of all it is still capable of the basics of the original design, a simple lever shot.
> 
> Is it specifically a pressure profiling machine, no, can you mess about and do lots of interesting things on it, yes. Is it for you Nick? Maybe, but just buy the decent espresso and have complete controllability, you never know it might last as long as the Londinium, but I doubt it!


Actually I started this thread, whist idly drinking a cup of coffee whilst contemplating a new machine. My thoughts concerning the pressure profile of the LR occured whilst watching Mildred's video











The shot is terminated even before the lever reaches vertical, I just wondered where on the pressure profile had the shot been terminated. These were just idle thoughts not intended to "tug" or antagonise anyone. Have to say I have been disappointed by the aggression and rudeness of some of the responses.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

tried to send you a massage..your mailbox is full Nick


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

NickR said:


> Actually I started this thread, whist idly drinking a cup of coffee whilst contemplating a new machine. My thoughts concerning the pressure profile of the LR occured whilst watching Mildred's video


Guessing somewhere between 2-4


----------



## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

NickR said:


> Actually I started this thread, whist idly drinking a cup of coffee whilst contemplating a new machine. My thoughts concerning the pressure profile of the LR occured whilst watching Mildred's video


I believe Mildred uses 15g baskets. Pull a 1:3 shot with a 20g basket and you'll basically get drips leftover after pulling 60g out.

I have LR and I still think it's well priced. You get variable PI without plumbing in (unlike most E61s) and good stability (from others testing it). It produces excellent shots when paired with a good grinder. I have no doubts it will last a long time.

If you want a pressure profiling machine, go for it. So far, I found that playing with ratios, PI time and time is overwhelming enough.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

All this reminds me of


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Guessing somewhere between 2-4


is that numberwang ?


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Thecatlinux said:


> is that numberwang ?


I read it as 24. My age


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> is that numberwang ?


Nope

Old school forum, love it


----------



## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

NickR said:


> I've been watching the development of the Decent espresso machine with interest. Looking at the graphs of flow and pressure it occured to me that on an LR if you require a shot of about 34g the lever will only be about half way through its travel, meaning that the pressure at the end of the shot is still about 9 bar, instead of trailing off as can be arranged on the Decent or the Vesuvius or indeed and old L1.


OK, OK I admit it, I was wrong. 9 bar would be a ridiculous pressure after half of the levers travel. I should have put something in the region of 7-8, because I was wrongly assuming that the pressure would fall logarithmically. The truth is that the pressure profile of a spring lever machine is linear, meaning half way through the levers travel the pressure will be about 4-5 bar. Pure Hooke's law, nothing complicated, but news to me.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

NickR said:


> OK, OK I admit it, I was wrong. 9 bar would be a ridiculous pressure after half of the levers travel. I should have put something in the region of 7-8, because I was wrongly assuming that the pressure would fall logarithmically. The truth is that the pressure profile of a spring lever machine is linear, meaning half way through the levers travel the pressure will be about 4-5 bar. Pure Hooke's law, nothing complicated, but news to me.


Still assuming that the start pressure is 9 bar though!


----------



## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

NickR said:


> OK, OK I admit it, I was wrong. 9 bar would be a ridiculous pressure after half of the levers travel. I should have put something in the region of 7-8, because I was wrongly assuming that the pressure would fall logarithmically. The truth is that the pressure profile of a spring lever machine is linear, meaning half way through the levers travel the pressure will be about 4-5 bar. Pure Hooke's law, nothing complicated, but news to me.


I provided you with more accurate info than this in my post #24.


----------



## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

ATZ said:


> I provided you with more accurate info than this in my post #24.


Gosh


----------



## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

NickR said:


> Gosh


Indeed.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

@NickR come along to the lever day you will be able to see for yourself then


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

coffeechap said:


> @NickR come along to the lever day you will be able to see for yourself then


& possibly walk away with a LR too!


----------



## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

Could anyone seriously walk away with an LR? far too heavy for me, I wouldn't get very far.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

NickR said:


> Could anyone seriously walk away with an LR? far too heavy for me, I wouldn't get very far.


We can help lift it into the car


----------

