# Beta Testers wanted for Minima



## DavecUK

The ACS Minima is in Alpha and I will be getting one to test and review in a about a week. It is a very small footprint dual boiler machine (but large boilers), brew boiler 800ml, the service boiler which does steam and hot water is a huge 2.3 litres which for this class of machine is VERY large. Boilers are as usual stainless like the Vesuvius, Vibration pump, internal tank, stainless steel, full E61 groupsolenoid (less maintenance), steam and water wands, PID with countdown timer etc..

*I've suggested to them that prior to launching to dealerships a softer launch to real people as beta testers might be a good idea, because retailers are not great at this unless they send it to me. The process will use the following stages:*


I will get an Alpha machine - effectively pre production, so mine won't have as good a finish as the production machines

I identify any issues, potential improvements (desirable)

Check operation, temperature, PID tuning

Soak test it and pull lots of shots, take photos

Write report

Production quality machines are made (with any alpha test changes) and offered to beta testers who expressed an interest

Beta testing ensures that in a wide range of users situations

Beta testers would be expected to fit minor modifications if it proves necessary (it would be in your own interest anyway)


*The machines will not be free, but they will be significantly cheaper than retail, because they will be factory gate pricing. It is envisaged there will be approximately 8 machines available for beta testing, so please put your name down on the thread if you are interested. Timescales will depend upon the performance of the minima in the Alpha test.*



*
*

Note, it's not envisaged that new people looking for their 1st ever machine would be suitable, but ACS may want one "greenhorn"







to see how it performs in the hands of the very inexperienced.

Below is a photo of the part finished Alpha Machine. please bear in mind it is an Alpha machine and is not looking it's best at the moment. Things like labels, covered in bits of laser film, chrome caps etc.. etc.. none of it is done...but it gives you a general idea of the shape.










*So let's hope it gets here intact and undamaged!*


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## Batian

Batian. (greenhorn)


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## Missy

I can't decide if I really like the shape or really hate it- it's certainly very different. I would love to be interested, is there any vague estimation on price, as I guess it will be beyond my reach.


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## Stanic

Looks like something I'm in the market for ATM, wonder about the suggested price. Is there a geographical limit for beta-testers?


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## joey24dirt

I'd love to but it would depend on the cost


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## jimbojohn55

I like the shape and look but probably couldn't afford the factory gate price for an ACS - intriguing though and lots of fun tweaking during the tuning and modifying stage.


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## 4085

Count me in but need a bit more info before I commit,


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## PPapa

Likewise - happy to commit if the price and TOC are known.


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## DavecUK

I don't expect anyone to commit at this stage. It first has to get past me in terms of the Alpha being fit for purpose. There may be some functional changes required, there may be some tweaks to the design. It's a very unusual design giving an awful lot of drip tray space and has changed a few times in an effort to fit everything inside. It should have good quality components, has that very large steam boiler and Duetto sized brew boiler, but is a Vibe pump machine (a vibe pump specifically chosen for its low noise). The Beta pricing has not been decided yet, because the final build costs is unknown as the Alpha machine is a one off machine and took longer to build as things were being worked out.

For the Beta testers the idea is to deliver a Dual Boiler Beta machine to them at less than £1000 (it definitely won't be more). How much less, I have no idea and if the machine will be a viable product due to it's build cost and eventual retail price, again I have no idea. Ideally I would think an objective would be to build a much better machine than the Expobar dual boiler, able to be sold in a similar price range. Until I actually see it though, it's going to be really hard to judge where it sits and whether it's going to cost ACS too much to build. It might be that beta testers end up owning the only 8 in existence if they prove two expensive to make...but I hope that's not the case as then the whole Beta Exercise would have been pointless. The whole beta thing was my suggestion to ACS, so is it a good Idea, I hope so, will feedback help them improve it further, again I hope so.


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## Stanic

I'm definitely interested at that price


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## Norvin

I'd like to express an interest too.


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## Rob1

I'm interested.


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## 7493

I'm interested.


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## Jon

I'm interested theoretically.


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## olivier

Out of curiosity, what are the dimensions of this machine? Currently considering the purchase of a Profitec 300 but I'm in no hurry. Looks like this one could be interesting as well.


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## Rhys

I could be interested as I'm not in the market for a machine, but could compare it t what I have etc.


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## ClaretPeter

Count me in at the moment, I'm interested


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## coffeechap

ClaretPeter said:


> Count me in at the moment, I'm interested


Two posts and straight in to an offer, wow


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## ClaretPeter

Been watching for a lot longer than 2 posts though.


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## Stanic

I like the sort-of 60s design with that steam wand


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## Rhys

@DavecUK what's the dimensions of this machine?

It's probably a 'marmite' shape and suitable for a left hand corner I think.

Is the group operated by a switch (presume the one on the left is the on/off?) as I can't see a lever?

Heat up time? Pid for brew boiler, or both? Is there a plug-in filter cartridge so tap water can be used or is bottled the preferred water? I think I'd have a small grip on the water wand as well since I often use mine. Is the water wand direct to boiler or is it mixed? (daft question I know, but some are mixed)


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## DavecUK

Rhys said:


> @DavecUK what's the dimensions of this machine?
> 
> It's probably a 'marmite' shape and suitable for a left hand corner I think.
> 
> Is the group operated by a switch (presume the one on the left is the on/off?) as I can't see a lever?
> 
> Heat up time? Pid for brew boiler, or both? Is there a plug-in filter cartridge so tap water can be used or is bottled the preferred water? I think I'd have a small grip on the water wand as well since I often use mine. Is the water wand direct to boiler or is it mixed? (daft question I know, but some are mixed)


Wow, I'm gonna wait till I get the Alpha unit....


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## Rob1

Rhys said:


> Is the group operated by a switch (presume the one on the left is the on/off?) as I can't see a lever?


I like to think you have to whisper to it lovingly.


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## Nikko

Strange. An e61 machine of "standard" design using proven, off-the-shelf components. What can beta testing reveal that a half-competent designer cannot spot in the workshop?


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## kennyboy993

Nikko said:


> Strange. An e61 machine of "standard" design using proven, off-the-shelf components. What can beta testing reveal that a half-competent designer cannot spot in the workshop?


A user experience that may or may not be satisfactory.....

The same set of components used on 2 different machines could be quite different.


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## Jollybean

I'd be interested in doing a review but not in purchasing


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## MSM

Interested - also happy to fit/make minor modifications as stated in the first post.


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## DavecUK

Jollybean said:


> I'd be interested in doing a review but not in purchasing


Thank you, I will make sure you are first in line if they give out free dual boiler machines for people to test.


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## robashton

My sage is slowly on the way out and I'm contemplating a GS3 - beta testing something like this would enable me to hold out on that for a year or so, so I'm in if the price is indeed right.


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## joey24dirt

Do you think they would swap for some skateboard handles ??


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## steveholt

I'd potentially be interested in beta testing.

Current situation is coming from a very consistent (1 espresso and 2 caps in the weekday/Sat morning from timer based start up, and 2-4 drinks in the evening after work, machine on all day Sunday) life routine usage of a gaggia TS for the past year and a half for my wife and I, and 2 years on a classic before that. I've replaced parts on both machines in that time. Grinder is ceado e37 (niche incoming), beans are ever changing but a bag at a time, light to medium roast.

If it's useful to have a mid career hx user upgrading to their first dual boiler as one of your beta testers, and being based in Ireland isn't an issue, then I'm interested in filling out that beta niche.

Regardless, best of luck with the product. I'm curious as to how it in the cup compares to the small lelit hx you recently reviewed.


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## DavecUK

joey24dirt said:


> Do you think they would swap for some skateboard handles 爛爛


Thank you for this post, I am sure they would be thrilled to have those, I hear they all are keen skateboarders and would probably appreciate handles for their skateboards. I suspect your free machine will be with you shortly.









I always wondered why manufacturers never beta test with consumers at a reduced price and seem to prefer making consumers into "unknowing beta testers" full final production price......

Lets see how this Beta test goes...


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## joey24dirt

DavecUK said:


> Thank you for this post, I am sure they would be thrilled to have those, I hear they all are keen skateboarders and would probably appreciate handles for their skateboards. I suspect your free machine will be with you shortly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I always wondered why manufacturers never beta test with consumers at a reduced price and seem to prefer making consumers into "unknowing beta testers" full final production price......
> 
> Lets see how this Beta test goes...


Apologies I was just being silly. I'd be on for weeks making enough to cover the cost of one


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## ncrc51

I'd be interested if shipping to the U.S. is of interest to ACS. The shape is interesting/odd but actually fits my dedicated coffee space. I've been considering upgrading my Mini Vivaldi II and this would most certainly be an upgrade.







I'm willing to pay the projected cost and reasonable shipping. I'm willing, able and interested in performing upgrades to the machine. I've done a bit of maintenance, etc. to the Vivaldi, including boiler and relay replacement, passive pre-infusion and on/off timer. Thanks.


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## Planter

@DavecUK

I would be happy to add my name to this and take one of these as I like the design (so far). Its different, and always want to try new things.


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## DavecUK

ncrc51 said:


> I'd be interested if shipping to the U.S. is of interest to ACS. The shape is interesting/odd but actually fits my dedicated coffee space. I've been considering upgrading my Mini Vivaldi II and this would most certainly be an upgrade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm willing to pay the projected cost and reasonable shipping. I'm willing, able and interested in performing upgrades to the machine. I've done a bit of maintenance, etc. to the Vivaldi, including boiler and relay replacement, passive pre-infusion and on/off timer. Thanks.


I'll double check. I know the power was specifically chosen to keep below a certain amount (and because of a very large service boiler, doesn't need massive power to maintain steaming), but I can't remember so have asked the question. Trouble is they are qualified to self certify for CE, but I don't know about UL or whatever it is?

I also suspect shipping will be too expensive as he has to airship machines to UK!


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## ncrc51

Thanks and understood. I have 115v 20 amp power at my machine. Generally all that's needed in the higher end home market. Their Vesuvius dual boiler machines are sold in the states by Chris Coffee and 1st Line Equipment and possibly others. My understanding is UL is desirable but not required in the U.S. market. Thanks again for checking. I remain very interested.


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## xpresso

Considering some of the offers on this thread, I'm not bothered about being a beta tester, come to think of it I'm not bothered about the machine, just send me the money.....







.


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## DavecUK

xpresso said:


> Considering some of the offers on this thread, I'm not bothered about being a beta tester, come to think of it I'm not bothered about the machine, just send me the money.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Thanks for that irrelevant, but helpful post.


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## Stanic

it might do with a slightly shorter drip tray


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## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> it might do with a slightly shorter drip tray


Really? I thought the E61 was pretty close to the edge as it was? It will be interesting to see when it arrives.


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## Stanic

just judging by the pic you posted and gut feeling









there might be some perspective deformation, I'll rather wait for your hands-on experience as a starting/reference point


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## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> just judging by the pic you posted and gut feeling
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> there might be some perspective deformation, I'll rather wait for your hands-on experience as a starting/reference point


I felt the same, which is why I am reticent to mention measurements, I think some Video and shots at different angles will give a far better idea. Then I can overlay a photo with all the different dimensions. I am quite interested to see it in the flesh, well can't wait actually. It's sort of like waiting for a new baby...before I get pilloried I did say "almost".


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## Stanic

DavecUK said:


> I am quite interested to see it in the flesh, well can't wait actually.


heh that's what you did to me as well


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## Stanic

I wonder what is the function of the switch hiding behind the hot water tap, on/off perhaps?

I am curious about stuff like pre-infusion and possible PID tuning

the PID interface looks like older Izzo style

and I have to say, the colours of the pressure gauge are rather disco


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## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> I wonder what is the function of the switch hiding behind the hot water tap, on/off perhaps?
> 
> I am curious about stuff like pre-infusion and possible PID tuning
> 
> the PID interface looks like older Izzo style
> 
> and I have to say, the colours of the pressure gauge are rather disco


Or steam boiler on/off

I love the pressure gauge, looks scientific and retro all at the same time, adding a much needed splash of colour in an otherwise grey winter day. The shape of the machine is reminiscent of Neo Plastisism, but with a more modern take on the juxtaposition of cuboid shapes intersecting with angled lines.









Or you could just say it looks different to all the other boxes on sale!


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## Stanic

DavecUK said:


> The shape of the machine is reminiscent of Neo Plastisism, but with a more modern take on the juxtaposition of cuboid shapes intersecting with angled lines.


Daf..k









Andy Warhol would love that gauge


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## DavecUK

In all it's glory.....oh just to add the chrome ring isn't on it because this was part way through the build.


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## DavecUK

A peep inside during the build...what a huge service boiler. 2.3 litres shoehorned into there, together with a 800ml brew boiler....


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## ncrc51

OK. This machine definitely requires a U.S. tester! In addition to being highly motivated I'm located less than an hour from the Asheville Counter Culture Training Center and I'd be willing to transport it up there for their review.







By the time it gets here I might have even taken delivery on that Monolith Conical so at least the grinder should be up to the task even if the barista is marginal.


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## Rob1

Is that little teflon tube the syphon take off from the top of the brew boiler?


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## Nikko

The machine has a 2.3 litre water/steam boiler. Is it intended as a water dispenser with espresso maker attached or the other way round? At a given element rating the extra volume has bugger all effect on the steaming rate.


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## 4085

Nikko said:


> The machine has a 2.3 litre water/steam boiler. Is it intended as a water dispenser with espresso maker attached or the other way round? At a given element rating the extra volume has bugger all effect on the steaming rate.


So what size steam boiler would meet with your approval then Niko? perhaps you should email ACS and tell them this as they might have overlooked it


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## Nikko

dfk41 said:


> So what size steam boiler would meet with your approval then Niko? perhaps you should email ACS and tell them this as they might have overlooked it


they can stick in whatever size boiler they want but in a domestic machine a large one is not an advantage unless you specifically want to be able to dispense a lot of water. On the other hand there are plenty of disadvantages: bigger footprint or more crammed innards, adverse effect on electronics through greater heat generation, higher cost, etc.


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## DavecUK

dfk41 said:


> So what size steam boiler would meet with your approval then Niko? perhaps you should email ACS and tell them this as they might have overlooked it


I added him to my ignore list a while ago Dave, I would suggest you do the same, because he has nothing of any interest to say. He knows and understands little, but thinks he knows it's all, so you are wasting your breath trying to educate or guide him..when he makes completely incorrect assumptions.

P.S. I doubt he has ever steamed with an S1 Vivalid with it's 2.5l service boiler, or a Londinium and compared the performance with it's 1 and 1.5 litre steam boiler cousins....the uninformed rarely have any significant real life experience.


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## 4085

DavecUK said:


> I added him to my ignore list a while ago Dave, I would suggest you do the same, because he has nothing of any interest to say. He knows and understands little, but thinks he knows it's all, so you are wasting your breath trying to educate or guide him..when he makes completely incorrect assumptions.
> 
> P.S. I doubt he has ever steamed with an S1 Vivalid with it's 2.5l service boiler, or a Londinium and compared the performance with it's 1 and 1.5 litre steam boiler cousins....the uninformed rarely have any significant real life experience.


I find ignore too easy an option! I find that the more they contribute, the bigger their idiocy is exposed....but you never know, I might learn something from it....whether or not it is about coffee though remains to be seen!


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## DavecUK

ncrc51 said:


> OK. This machine definitely requires a U.S. tester! In addition to being highly motivated I'm located less than an hour from the Asheville Counter Culture Training Center and I'd be willing to transport it up there for their review.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the time it gets here I might have even taken delivery on that Monolith Conical so at least the grinder should be up to the task even if the barista is marginal.


I did ask them, the problem is the shipping cost. 110V machines will be manufactured, but shipping a single machine would be so expensive. This means they will have to use a trusted reseller, presumably Chris (if he is interested) and ship in bulk..


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## Nikko

DavecUK said:


> I added him to my ignore list a while ago Dave, I would suggest you do the same, because he has nothing of any interest to say. He knows and understands little, but thinks he knows it's all, so you are wasting your breath trying to educate or guide him..when he makes completely incorrect assumptions.
> 
> P.S. I doubt he has ever steamed with an S1 Vivalid with it's 2.5l service boiler, or a Londinium and compared the performance with it's 1 and 1.5 litre steam boiler cousins....the uninformed rarely have any significant real life experience.


What a friendly chap you are! Insults seem to be the way you answer technical issues.

You accuse me of making incorrect assumptions but you make incorrect statements.

I have not steamed with a S1 Vivaldi but I am sure that its steady-state steaming performance is not due to the size of the boiler but due to the rating of the heating element. Did you not know that?


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## Nikko

duplicate post deleted


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## Stanic

once you steam on a commercial machine you'll know the difference


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## ashcroc

Nikko said:


> What a friendly chap you are! Insults seem to be the way you answer technical issues.
> 
> You accuse me of making incorrect assumptions but you make incorrect statements.
> 
> I have not steamed with a S1 Vivaldi but I am sure that its steady-state steaming performance I not due to the size of the boiler but due to the rating of the heating element. Did you not know that?


Bigger boiler = more space for steam. The rating of the element only affects the speed in which the steam is produced in the first place.


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## ncrc51

DavecUK said:


> I did ask them, the problem is the shipping cost. 110V machines will be manufactured, but shipping a single machine would be so expensive. This means they will have to use a trusted reseller, presumably Chris (if he is interested) and ship in bulk..


Thanks for checking. I'd be happy to work through Chris if they are interested. I've made several parts and supply purchases through them and regard them highly. Again thanks for following up for me.


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## Nikko

Stanic said:


> once you steam on a commercial machine you'll know the difference


I fully accept that a more powerful machine will steam more. My point was that all other things being equal, boiler volume has negligible effect on the steaming rate


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## 4085

Nikko said:


> What a friendly chap you are! Insults seem to be the way you answer technical issues.
> 
> You accuse me of making incorrect assumptions but you make incorrect statements.
> 
> I have not steamed with a S1 Vivaldi but I am sure that its steady-state steaming performance is not due to the size of the boiler but due to the rating of the heating element. Did you not know that?


Niko, who is giving you your information? Commercial machines have enormous boilers, unto 16 litres each on a 3 group. That allows them to steam in a manner we can only dream of and is nothing to do with recovery time via the element.....recovery time becomes more critical in a domestic or prosumer machine where you're limited to the size of the boilers which can impact if you have to make 3 or 4 cups on the trot


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## 4085

Nikko said:


> I fully accept that a more powerful machine will steam more. My point was that all other things being equal, boiler volume has negligible effect on the steaming rate


wrong again! The size of the boiler has a direct impact on the power of the steam, up to a certain point......otherwise all steam boilers would perform at the same rate subject to element size


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## Nikko

dfk41 said:


> Niko, who is giving you your information? Commercial machines have enormous boilers, unto 16 litres each on a 3 group. That allows them to steam in a manner we can only dream of and is nothing to do with recovery time via the element.....recovery time becomes more critical in a domestic or prosumer machine where you're limited to the size of the boilers which can impact if you have to make 3 or 4 cups on the trot


Discussion was not about commercial machines but about the difference between the S1 and Londinium and "lesser" machines.


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## Nikko

dfk41 said:


> wrong again! The size of the boiler has a direct impact on the power of the steam, up to a certain point......otherwise all steam boilers would perform at the same rate subject to element size


You are wrong. The size of the boiler has an impact on steam performance (not power) beyond (not up to) a certain point. Yes, you can exchange a smaller element for a bigger volume and slower recovery but then you are talking about a big increase in volume. 0.5 liter extra is not going to do it.


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## Daren

@DavecUK - I love the look of this.... I'd love to throw my hat in the ring as a beta tester please if it gets off the ground.


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## GingerBen

I haven't read all of this so apologies if it's been mentioned before but please, please can somebody start to continue the trend of Sage machines and make a visible water level and front filling tanks!?! Maybe this is a good project to get that out on a different brand.


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## khampal

GingerBen said:


> I haven't read all of this so apologies if it's been mentioned before but please, please can somebody start to continue the trend of Sage machines and make a visible water level and front filling tanks!?! Maybe this is a good project to get that out on a different brand.


Looks like the water reservoir is at the bottom behind both boilers, so I don't think that would be possible to have a visible water level (could be wrong of course).

With regards to the machine, looks like a very clever space design that doesn't compromise on boiler size etc. I guess the shape might not appeal to everybody, but it's certainly a breath of fresh air - especially that steam wand.


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## DavecUK

GingerBen said:


> I haven't read all of this so apologies if it's been mentioned before but please, please can somebody start to continue the trend of Sage machines and make a visible water level and front filling tanks!?! Maybe this is a good project to get that out on a different brand.


Funnily enough Paolo and I have already had that conversation, along with another about water alarms. The conclusion we came to was. Visible water level is not easy because of rear tanks as mentioned below, using any other method to make a visible water level makes things more complicated. So we came on to the topic of low water alarms. Usually they flash a light and annoyingly switch the boiler/s off....and they certainly stop the pump running (not the Vesuvius because of Last shot protection (LSP)). This is sort of pointless really because we really don't want the pump cut or the boilers switched off. Putting in LSP is complicated and requires board logic and it's all so pointless. All we really want is an alert (flashing light) that we're going to need to fill the tank soon, set that alert around 150ml and we've around 2 double shots left before we suck air. That's it, that simple, it's a vibe pump machine if it sucks air, who cares. When we see a flashing light, we simply make a not to refill it, before or after the shot we're making.



khampal said:


> Looks like the water reservoir is at the bottom behind both boilers, so I don't think that would be possible to have a visible water level (could be wrong of course).
> 
> With regards to the machine, looks like a very clever space design that doesn't compromise on boiler size etc. I guess the shape might not appeal to everybody, but it's certainly a breath of fresh air - especially that steam wand.


It's meant to give drip tray space, without being large and as you say, the steam wand is a bit excellent and it's nice not to have the usual square box.


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## jj-x-ray

Is this meant to compete with a machine like the lelit mara?


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## GingerBen

The alert before you actually run out is a great and simple idea. Not having to pull a 30kg machine out from under a cupboard to fill it was about the best thing my previous Oracle had going for it, especially with the bearings under it to allow free movement. It's a small but tedious job refilling the rocket


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## DavecUK

jj-x-ray said:


> Is this meant to compete with a machine like the lelit mara?


No the Lelit Mara is a simple small footprint HX machine, which competes with the Rocket Appartmento. The minima is a PID dual boiler small footprint machine with larger than usual service boiler for good steaming.

It's in a class above them.


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## Stanic

Did you already receive the test machine @DavecUK?


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## Nikko

DavecUK said:


> No the Lelit Mara is a simple small footprint HX machine, which competes with the Rocket Appartmento. The minima is a PID dual boiler small footprint machine with larger than usual service boiler for good steaming.
> 
> It's in a class above them.


Both the Lelit Mara and Rocket Appartamento have full e61 groups. The Minima has only the upper half of an e61 group, with the lower expansion/pre-infusion part missing and replaced by a simple solenoid. How is this superior?


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## PaulL

Nikko, every post of yours I read seems to be critical. Nothing wrong with it as one half of the coin but I don't think I have read a helpful or constructive post on threads with guidance or suggestions (I did try and search out of curiosity). What's your background with coffee?


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## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> Did you already receive the test machine @DavecUK?


I did get it yesterday.


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## Daren

DavecUK said:


> I did get it yesterday.


Not sure if I've missed it, but can it be plumbed in?


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## DavecUK

Daren said:


> Not sure if I've missed it, but can it be plumbed in?


The current design no, but that's why I have an Alpha machine, as then I can assess whether it's feasible, how it might best be done and whether the drip tray can be fitted with a waste pipe or not. In many respects the *Alpha is not a finished machine in the production sense, but more a test of concept*. The assessment has to cover.


Performance

Cost

Quality

Function

Little facepalms

Reliability

Maintainability

Ideal settings


All these are a balance/compromise of practicality, possibility, cost.

I did a similar thing for the Lelit Bianca and they will be making all the changes I suggested prior to going into production. It's a process I hope will become more common in the future. It certainly helps get a machine performing well from the start of production.


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## Stanic

can't wait for your comments on the alpha version, if you are allowed to

could you perhaps post few more pics when you have time?

Lelit Bianca, how could I miss that - looks great with that paddle on top


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## steveholt

I was all excited that there might be news.

And, even though the posts read oddly, nikkos's question about the lack of the bottom half of the e61 group is an interesting question that id love to hear addressed.


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## 4085

@DavecUK

would not see Niko's post as he has him on ignore, so....this is his comment:

Both the Lelit Mara and Rocket Appartamento have full e61 groups. The Minima has only the upper half of an e61 group, with the lower expansion/pre-infusion part missing and replaced by a simple solenoid. How is this superior?


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## 4085

full E61 groupsolenoid (less maintenance)

this is in post 1.....am I near?


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## MediumRoastSteam

My take on this it's because one does not need to lubricate the cam lever every time you backflush or deal with wear and tear of the parts, thus reducing considerable maintenance?


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## kennyboy993

Also enables electronic shot ending for e.g. volumetrics a la ecm electronika


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## steveholt

Versus a loss of preinfusion??


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## kennyboy993

steveholt said:


> Versus a loss of preinfusion??


Yes, good point - though I'd challenge that e61 for plumbed in machine is more 'shock protection' than true pre infusion anyway ;-)


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## steveholt

kennyboy993 said:


> Yes, good point - though I'd challenge that e61 for plumbed in machine is more 'shock protection' than true pre infusion anyway ;-)


But is this not a vibe pump tank machine.

The relative soft ramp of a vibe pump, into an e61 might result a a pretty soft preinfusion compares to line fed rotary pump e61.

All guesswork of course.


----------



## kennyboy993

Agreed. Would be interesting to understand what ACS have done in this area on the minima

It's not like a Vesuvius where standard e61 pre infusion would get in the way of the pressure profiling


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> My take on this it's because one does not need to lubricate the cam lever every time you backflush or deal with wear and tear of the parts, thus reducing considerable maintenance?


*100% correct* and it's a vibe pump machine (not a rotary) so the infusion is progressive anyway. Solenoid operated E61 groups are far more sensible on Vibe pump machines. It's just trying to be a nice dual boiler with decent quality beyond something like an Expobar dual boiler. I suppose we could say a DB for almost HX money. ACS always use good quality core components inside (e,g, boilers, solenoids etc..).


----------



## Stanic

I've worked with volumetric E61 heads and would actually prefer the solenoid operated to the traditional one, given the reduced faff around the cam lever


----------



## Nikko

So in terms of coffee making ability it is broadly similar to a Classic or Silvia with a PID temperature controller.


----------



## 4085

Nikko said:


> So in terms of coffee making ability it is broadly similar to a Classic or Silvia with a PID temperature controller.


Do you live in a parallel universe which consists of talking crap all day long......by any chance?


----------



## ashcroc

Nikko said:


> So in terms of coffee making ability it is broadly similar to a Classic or Silvia with a PID temperature controller.


Not at all as that would suggest it's only a single boiler machine. To use your terminology, this would be broadly similar to any other dual boiler machine with a PID.


----------



## Nikko

dfk41 said:


> Do you live in a parallel universe which consists of talking crap all day long......by any chance?


Slightly better temperature stability on account of the extra mass of the e61 but identical pressure build up. Where is the big improvement?


----------



## Rhys

Wondered why it didn't have a cam lever, that explains it then.


----------



## kennyboy993

Nikko said:


> Slightly better temperature stability on account of the extra mass of the e61 but identical pressure build up. Where is the big improvement?


There isn't is there - not sure anyone was claiming a big improvement? And over what.

As you say pid'd e61 - pretty good though not pushing the boundaries when compared to much more expensive machines.

There's more to a machine than the group though eh - this thing has huge service boiler for a prosumer db, some innovative design features etc..... not to be sniffed at?


----------



## Nikko

kennyboy993 said:


> There isn't is there - not sure anyone was claiming a big improvement? And over what.
> 
> As you say pid'd e61 - pretty good though not pushing the boundaries when compared to much more expensive machines.
> 
> There's more to a machine than the group though eh - this thing has huge service boiler for a prosumer db, some innovative design features etc..... not to be sniffed at?


It is claimed to be an improvement on the Lelit Mara and Rocket Appartamento. Do not forget that we do not know anything about its steaming capabilities yet.


----------



## ashcroc

Nikko said:


> It is claimed to be an improvement on the Lelit Mara and Rocket Appartamento. Do not forget that we do not know anything about its steaming capabilities yet.


I'm quite willing to believe you know nothing. I however have read the thread & am aware it has a 2.3 liter service boiler shoehorned into it's carcass which should be quite capable of producing steam.


----------



## Rob1

Nikko said:


> It is claimed to be an improvement on the Lelit Mara and Rocket Appartamento. Do not forget that we do not know anything about its steaming capabilities yet.


The Mara and Appartamento are HX machines. The Minima is dual boiler with massive service boiler so it will have excellent steaming ability (regardless of what you might think). Regarding the lack of cam lever and associated parts: without a rotary pump they are useless.


----------



## 4085

I wonder if Niko is a reincarnation......he seems very angry about everything.....perhaps he was bullied at school and now is a keyboard warrior?


----------



## Stanic

I sort of understand now why DaveC has him on ignore list


----------



## Nikko

The Minima may well have excellent steaming capabilities but no information has been made available to support this. All we know so far is that it has no PI (a big negative in my book, even with a vibratory pump) and a 2.3 liter steam boiler. All other things being equal, an additional 0.5 liter steam boiler capacity will increase the initial steaming rate marginally and certainly not continuously. Similar increase in steaming power can be achieved on a continuous basis by upping the heater rating by 100 odd Watts.

This machine seems to be an odd ball that prioritises steaming over coffee making ability.

What is the rating of the steam heater?


----------



## 4085

Do you not understand the process? The machine is in Alpha testing. that means there is only one in the world. it goes to the tester, he does his bit, it goes back for adjustments.changes, then back to the tester. This until such a point is reached that the tester is happy. ACS then have to decide if they can make the end machine within their budget. if they can, then a number of Beta machines are made and sent out on test to a group of users, and following their feedback, the project might or might not go ahead.

There is little or no data going to be coming out until that stage is reached


----------



## Nikko

dfk41 said:


> ...There is little or no data going to be coming out until that stage is reached


Funnily enough I am the one asking questions. You and others claim to know the answers. At the end of the day people can spend their money how they want.


----------



## 4085

Nikko said:


> Funnily enough I am the one asking questions. You and others claim to know the answers. At the end of the day people can spend their money how they want.


I have not answered anything technical on this thread. I have simply disagreed with the ferocious way you seem to communicate regardless of the topic. Anyway, now you understand why their are no answers or comments to your questions at the moment. Why do you not settle down a bit, share with us your passion and perhaps we can try to get on......over to you


----------



## Daren

There's only one way to sort this out.......


----------



## Jony

Queens bury style.


----------



## Daren

Nope - no rules style!


----------



## Batian

This thread has the potential to be re written as thriller with an industrial espionage theme.

I wonder...........?


----------



## Nikko

dfk41 said:


> I have not answered anything technical on this thread. I have simply disagreed with the ferocious way you seem to communicate regardless of the topic. Anyway, now you understand why their are no answers or comments to your questions at the moment. Why do you not settle down a bit, share with us your passion and perhaps we can try to get on......over to you


Me ferocious? Me thinks you are getting confused. Still, passion is one thing, unsubstantiated hype something else.


----------



## Rob1

Unsubstantiated hype? What on earth are you on about? It's an E61 DB machine with a small footprint without compromising boiler size. Nobody has claimed anything else other than being a step above HX machines it being a dual boiler. You're the only one spouting nonsense comparing a dual boiler e61 to a gaggia classic and Silvia.


----------



## 4085

Nikko said:


> Me ferocious? Me thinks you are getting confused. Still, passion is one thing, unsubstantiated hype something else.


are you using a translator! your attitude stinks and you have the word passion confused with arrogant, rude and aggressive....still, bring it on. never taken a step backwards in 60 years and am not going to start now pal


----------



## Nikko

Rob1 said:


> Unsubstantiated hype? What on earth are you on about? It's an E61 DB machine with a small footprint without compromising boiler size. Nobody has claimed anything else other than being a step above HX machines it being a dual boiler. You're the only one spouting nonsense comparing a dual boiler e61 to a gaggia classic and Silvia.


you are misquoting me. I only compared it to the Classic and Silvia as far as lack of pre infusion goes. A claim that it is a step above HX is meaningless without saying why. Is db without PI better than HX with PI?


----------



## Nikko

dfk41 said:


> are you using a translator! your attitude stinks and you have the word passion confused with arrogant, rude and aggressive....still, bring it on. never taken a step backwards in 60 years and am not going to start now pal


my goodness you do have a problem. Have you forgotten that this is a discussion about a coffee machine?


----------



## ashcroc

Nikko said:


> my goodness you do have a problem. Have you forgotten that this is a discussion about a coffee machine?


Actually, this is a thread asking for potential beta testers (the clue is in the title). If you want to discus the merits of hx machines with pi vs db machines without pi I suggest you start your own thread.


----------



## Rob1

Nikko said:


> you are misquoting me. I only compared it to the Classic and Silvia as far as lack of pre infusion goes. A claim that it is a step above HX is meaningless without saying why. Is db without PI better than HX with PI?


I didn't quote you.

Define pre infusion length and pressure and why you think a full E61 HX with vibe pump would behave differently to a vibe pump E61 controlled by a solenoid without a pre infusion chamber.


----------



## Stanic

guys, guys, you've fed him enough already


----------



## Stanic

Any updates you could share, @DavecUK?


----------



## Hasi

Just found out about this - love the approach!

@DavecUK, please count me in for a Beta test if the list hasn't gotten too long by now!

I'll be looking into getting a second E61 for my future roastery to taste or simply pull my occasional at-work espresso... and with limited space it'd better be a small (and not too expensive) one.

Pros: Industrial designer. Love to try out and getting to grips with stuff... oh and I can handle a screwdriver and a camera.

Cons: located in mainland Europe (shipping?), Experience: intermediate*

* ...I'd say. Owning a Rocket Evo 2 (home) since when it came out as well as a Quickmill 0835 (office), I went from horrible to everybody-wants-to-drink-my-brew in a classic way without fancy techniques.


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> Any updates you could share, @DavecUK?


Not much at this stage, I was unhappy about some issues in group thermal performance and brew temperatures and for me machines have to pass these tests properly. So testing was suspended a few days after I received it pending some internal redesigns required for me to be able to continue. The revised Alpha (1.1) machine arrives today and I will resume testing. For people who don't know me, I am very thorough and do test temperatures of all machines I review very carefully. There have been a few machines (actually on the market) which have failed thermal testing in recent years, fortunately not sold by any companies I have worked with. People might well think all the manufacturers test temperatures very carefully, but many don't, or lack the skills equipment to do so.

*I can say that one of the key objectives for the Minima, is to produce a Dual boiler machine at a similar cost to a prosumer Heat Exchanger machine. This of course means at all times great care in what features are added/revised as all this has a cost implication....quite a lot to think about for this review.*


----------



## DavecUK

The replacement Alpha 1.1 machine arrived yesterday and unfortunately it had been severely abused by the couriers. Being an Alpha machine the specialist packaging had not yet been developed and after what must have been an inversion of the Box (and/or roling around), to dislodge the machine nicely. The couriers must have then decided to drop it from about 8 feet up. This final insult bent 2mm thick angled good quality stainless like it was plasticine. I was not a happy bunny. I was also concerned about the heavy internals which can move and take damage. I spent a lot of the first day inspecting the machine, checking the insides and then repairing it best I could. The internals were relatively unscathed, thanks to the very strong mountings used by ACS, a leak on a pipe (this often happens after a flex with a shock drop) cured by re-tightening seemed to be all that was needed. The frame was a very different matter and surgery was required.

  

    










As you can see the 2 bulges each side as the metal creased when it folded won't allow the sides of the outer case to fit correctly! So surgery was required. I donned my surgical gown, anaesthetised the patient and got to work.

  









Then some judicious use of panel beating equipment and special plannishing hammers got rid of the side bulges. A good internal check over and we were good to go.

  

  










I have spent the rest of the time until this evening performing temperature testing PID tuning, steam testing, boiler flushing etc...finally this evening I pulled the first shot. It was excellent and reflected well the work done over the past day and a half of temperature tuning. The Vibe pump is quiet (for a vibe pump machine), but so far so good in terms of the core functions of temperature, steaming and stability.. More to come as things progress.

P.S. It's a credit to the strength of the design/construction that it survived and I was able to get it fairly straight and working again, but I am so upset by those couriers!


----------



## kennyboy993

Nice work.

That's a great shot of it next to the Vesuvius- shows how amazingly compact it is.


----------



## jj-x-ray

I hope ACS are suitably unimpressed with the couriers too!!

nice comparison shot though, gives a great sense of scale. I think it looks quite apt as an edge of counter machine too


----------



## Stanic

Thanks for the update! Looks great, the courier company is a shame!

I'm amazed too how compact it is, and the possibility of right/left options would be a winner


----------



## Rob1

It looks less than half the size of the Vesuvius!


----------



## khampal

the design looks even nicer than i originally thought

which couriers did this?


----------



## DavecUK

khampal said:


> the design looks even nicer than i originally thought
> 
> which couriers did this?


I'll bet it was at the airport, because it had to have been dropped from more than the height of the back of a lorry or standard warehouse conveyor belt!



Stanic said:


> Thanks for the update! Looks great, the courier company is a shame!
> 
> I'm amazed too how compact it is, and the possibility of right/left options would be a winner


It's a wonderful idea, the problem is cost...effectively apart from internal components (even the base plate couldn't be drilled the same), it would be two completely different machines...even some of the boilers may have to be drilled differently. The cost hit would be too great. This is meant to be a prosumer type quality dual boiler at HX prices.

Oh the steaming is great steamed some of my wifes Oat milk in there and she said the texture was really good....even better than the V







(personally I think it's a wand issue)


----------



## Stanic

could you post the dimensions? is it lens distortion/perspective or is the V's group bigger?







edit: of course the V sits closer to the camera


----------



## ncrc51

Impressive all the way around except for the couriers. Thanks for posting updates and keeping us engaged.


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> could you post the dimensions? is it lens distortion/perspective or is the V's group bigger?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edit: of course the V sits closer to the camera


The Vs group is not larger, it's an optical illusion.









*
Dimensions in mm are: 370 H x 445 D x 270 W.*

*To give some perspective if we compare some well known small footprint HX machines:*

Rocket Appartmento: 360 H x 425 D x 274 W

Lelit Mara PL62: 35.5 H x 400 D x 220 W

Of course the Minima is dual boiler with 0.8l brew boiler and 2.3l service boiler!


----------



## Stanic

Pretty compact!

I compare it in my head with the Profitec 300 (255w x 415d/475d with PF x 385h), of course the P300 has much smaller boilers.

I like the steam wand design, seems like it makes it possible to flip it forward over the hot water tap and have the machine put in a corner with wall on right hand side, also the water tap will be easily accessible


----------



## Stanic

How about the steam tip, how many holes has it got?


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> How about the steam tip, how many holes has it got?


3 holes, very good steaming.



Stanic said:


> Pretty compact!
> 
> I compare it in my head with the Profitec 300 (255w x 415d/475d with PF x 385h), of course the P300 has much smaller boilers.
> 
> I like the steam wand design, seems like it makes it possible to flip it forward over the hot water tap and have the machine put in a corner with wall on right hand side, also the water tap will be easily accessible


Again 100% correct, the steam wand is super versatile.

*Now some idle musings during testing/evaluation*

I have been using it exclusively for the last few days. It has a nice steady ramp to pressure, temperatures are good and reflective of the PID settings and I will do some Video of the shopts tomorrow, because it's really good and the shots look (and taste) really nice. It is of course being used in conjunction with the Niche grinder. I am fast becoming impressed with the little Minima. There are some things I keep thinking I want to see done....BUT something Paolo said:



> I want to build a good dual boiler machine for HX money


This is the primary objective and each time I think this would be good and that could be improved....I always come back to the primary objective! So sure the knobs could be better, but it increases cost, won't ever be to everyone's taste, so leave em alone and if people want different knobs they can buy exactly what they want. Or perhaps the plasti-chrome Gicar PID with blue numbers would look nicer, but it's 50% more expensive, do to *exactly* the same thing....yeah perhaps not.

The recent Vesuvius sales told me something I might not have guessed. People were willing to pay more for steel piping....even though they might see it once per year when they do their annual check. So I'm thinking people who want a dual boiler for HX money want one that works really well and with good performance, that's what people care about at this sort of price point. The boilers are specially sized, not just what was available. The brew 0.8l is an optimum size (I have found this the best size over the years), the service boiler at 2.3litres is really well sized and gives it exceptional steam performance. Both boilers are AISI 316L (low corrosion surgical steel as in the Vesuvius), but to keep things simple and more space efficient, have embedded Incolloy 800 long life heating elements. Less chance of leaks, easier construction, better quality for less money than other solutions.....the compromise, no removing the heating elements to help descaling, so best use decent water. It can be descaled, but it's more difficult.....when you can't remove a heating element to completely drain the boiler. Of course you can remove a fitting and suck it out I guess...

The other consideration is maintainability......but most small components are available pretty much off the shelf and the rest is factory pricing (well for forumites)....so it should be easy enough to keep working. The boilers should be a "last the life of the machine" sort of thing, but even they will be economical enough to replace in the rare event of one of the long life heating elements failing. My job now is to pull together the MOSCOW list for the machine to help decide going forward what it will finally be. Then if people still want to Beta test, this will give a customer view of the machine other than mine....but one based around the core objective. e,g, Has it been met, but at too high a functional cost, or just right?


----------



## kennyboy993

Alpha, beta, MOSCOW list..... background in software delivery @DavecUK ?


----------



## Stanic

DavecUK said:


> 3 holes, very good steaming.


Excellent

Did you keep it switched on for extended periods of time?


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> Excellent
> 
> Did you keep it switched on for extended periods of time?


Both boilers 17 hrs per day. The only times it was less was during PID tuning , where things had to be OK whether steam boiler is on or off.

Of course I always recommend any dual boiler only has steam boiler on when required.


----------



## DavecUK

kennyboy993 said:


> Alpha, beta, MOSCOW list..... background in software delivery @DavecUK ?


something I did as part of a job many many years ago....I try and keep up to date on some of the skills.


----------



## DavecUK

A little video. I thought I would dash downstairs today with my Gimbal and Redmi Note 4 to grab some quick Video. All was silent, no one was around.........







Oh and I just remembered I had not pressed publish









The coffee is a Peruvian (elimbari?) can't remember which one, I have 2 types... roasted on 22/4/18, so just on 14 days old. 18g double shot in Minimas own basket and portafilter. Vibe pump sounds louder than it is because of front facing mic and agc....it's also why I seem very quiet behind phone. Vibe pump machines of course make more noise, but this is one of the quieter ones and no rattles.


----------



## Stanic

Shot timer









The coffee looks nice


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> Shot timer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The coffee looks nice


Yes, it's very good, I'm on to a ,hopefully nice, Ethiopian Harrar Longberry next, If I roasted it right I am hoping for blueberry pie....if not all I will get is disappointment


----------



## Stanic

DavecUK said:


> Yes, it's very good, I'm on to a ,hopefully nice, Ethiopian Harrar Longberry next, If I roasted it right I am hoping for blueberry pie....if not all I will get is disappointment


Guess there is a thin line between getting the acids and sugars to a point where you want them vs. screwing it up ( unintentionally)


----------



## Stanic

how was the longberry? hopefully loads of blueberry goodness

I would love to see some wand action if you find time


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> how was the longberry? hopefully loads of blueberry goodness
> 
> I would love to see some wand action if you find time


Some blueberry, but not as much as I had hoped for....the problem is it's the last of my supply (I have been eking it out) and one of the first things to go as the Harrar ages is the strength of the blueberry. It's good, but not super fantastic. I roasted it correctly, I just think it's had it's best times already. I think I either have 1kg left or none.

As for you "seeing some wand action"......I almost choked on my coffee, but I'm OK now. It's really difficult to hold a camera and steam and I can't at the moment be arsed to set up the tripod and try and twist my body around to give a clear view. I will think hard about "giving you some wand action" and perhaps in the future. With steaming I am fortunate enough to have a set of different tips. The standard tip is a really quick 3 hole and with that large service boiler it seems to be able to maintain 0.9 bar. I have also tried a 2 hole tip, not an especially slow one and that seems to maintain around 1.1 bar. This is all with the steam boiler at 124C or 1.25 bar. It's a really good steamer and produces great milk texture. The want itself makes it super easy to use. Steaming is a one of the strengths of the Minima.

Of course anyone local to me is welcome to come and have a look/play with the Minima, Niche or both...


----------



## Stanic

Lovely, thanks for additional info, glad you had a laugh


----------



## Stanic

Perhaps a daft question, but could they maybe offer a version with pressure paddle like the one the Lelit Bianca has got, for extra money? Or a sort of upgrade kit? Is it even doable with a vibe pump?


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> Perhaps a daft question, but could they maybe offer a version with pressure paddle like the one the Lelit Bianca has got, for extra money? Or a sort of upgrade kit? Is it even doable with a vibe pump?


Anything is possible, although I suspect Lelit have copywritten their approach. Is it worth it on a vibe pump a very big question. The little Minima does have a nice smooth progressive ramp to full pressure, it's uncomplicated, it makes a really good coffee (really good)...it sort of works. Perhaps if the Minima takes off there may be future +models. At the moment though the focus is on a well working dual boiler with no compromises on boiler size/quality or PID for HX money. It will lack some functions you might find on other machines....but it will also lack the price tag. At the end of the day people will have to decide whether some of these things are deal breakers for them. I'll give you an example.

The knobs are not phenolic, just the sort of rough plastic as used on the Duetto MKII etc..nothing wrong with them. Paolo put a water sticker on one knob...by the time the machine reached me it had fallen off. I thought ah, what about nicer knobs, better sticker on the knob or etching whatever....but I realise, do I really car, can I easily tell which knob is which. If I want better knobs I can always buy them. Whatever special knobs he chooses, won't be to everyones taste...so keep it cheaper and let people buy them later if they want.

Now far be it from me to say.....but if/when BB stock the Lelit with the paddle.....what's to stop you buying a spare paddle assembly that fits in an E61 group and putting it on the Minima itself, because lets face it, a spare is going to have to be available...If you feel it needs it, there is no copyright broken and ONE gets exactly what ONE wants.


----------



## ncrc51

There should be a good market for a well priced quality machine, with a small footprint, that makes consistently good coffee with minimum fuss.


----------



## Stanic

DavecUK said:


> Now far be it from me to say.....but if/when BB stock the Lelit with the paddle.....what's to stop you buying a spare paddle assembly that fits in an E61 group and putting it on the Minima itself, because lets face it, a spare is going to have to be available...If you feel it needs it, there is no copyright broken and ONE gets exactly what ONE wants.










yeah good thinking

as for knobs or PID, I couldn't care less how it looks if it works..anyone can upgrade to say wooden ones with a bit of effort


----------



## Tsangpa

Do you think they might do a reverse orientation version as well?

One thought that struck me was the small cafe setting where you could have one of these at a low entry point, add another with a reverse orientation to scale up to a two group setup. It would look quite neat side by side and offer the modular approach that Decent are promoting with their new machine. If one fails or needs a repair it can be swapped out, or just run one machine until the other is fixed.

Also it would cater for different kitchen setups for the prosumer market.


----------



## DavecUK

Tsangpa said:


> Do you think they might do a reverse orientation version as well?
> 
> One thought that struck me was the small cafe setting where you could have one of these at a low entry point, add another with a reverse orientation to scale up to a two group setup. It would look quite neat side by side and offer the modular approach that Decent are promoting with their new machine. If one fails or needs a repair it can be swapped out, or just run one machine until the other is fixed.
> 
> Also it would cater for different kitchen setups for the prosumer market.


I don't believe they would do a reverse orientation. This is because it would be two completely different machines. Making a mirror image machine in a cad package is simple, but all parts on the case would be different. Boiler mounts (posts under the boiler help orient the boilers and the fittings are handed on the boilers themselves. This means left and right handed boilers, different copper tube bends, when building different parts bins...I think it would be a nightmare. This would increase overall costs, because buying power is reduced by 50% and subsequent discounts for quantity further reduced, the alternative being parts stock sitting on the shelves.

It's a great idea and one of the first things I thought would be good, until you really sit down and think about what it means in terms of construction and costs.


----------



## Hasi

sometimes, reality sucks


----------



## Stanic

Is the OPV setting screw easily reachable?


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> Is the OPV setting screw easily reachable?


Yes


----------



## KopiO

Is the machine made in UK? Just as the Londinium? Thank you


----------



## DavecUK

KopiO said:


> Is the machine made in UK? Just as the Londinium? Thank you


No it's made in Italy just like the La Marzocco.


----------



## KopiO

Thank you. But the design was ugly. Would like to see this machine in traditional E61 design like this picture show here


----------



## Stanic

ok


----------



## Rob1

Is the thermosyphon take off from the top of the boiler? Does the water level drop when the steam boiler is refilled and are the two boilers independent as in there's no HX?

All seems to be looking good so far!


----------



## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> Is the thermosyphon take off from the top of the boiler? Does the water level drop when the steam boiler is refilled and are the two boilers independent as in there's no HX?
> 
> All seems to be looking good so far!


Fitting is at top of boiler, but tube goes into boiler. The water level rises in the service (steam) boiler when it is refilled and drops in the machines plastic water tank.. The two boilers are independent, there is no HX or preheat and it's not needed.



KopiO said:


> Thank you. But the design was ugly. Would like to see this machine in traditional E61 design like this picture show here


Thank you for the completely irrelevant comment and the photo of the Profitech machine. Before you ask, the Profitech is made in Germany is a dual boiler like the Minima and is around 2K. Although the Minima has a larger service boiler, better steaming and is a dual boiler for the same money as a normal HX machine, looks are very important to you and I would highly recommend you go for the Profitech as it's a very nice machine.


----------



## KopiO

The Profitec picture only an example to show that I like the traditional square boxes design machine rather than ugly design like this minima . I also noticed the Minima E61 group head does not come with the lever handle as it would like the original E61 lever. Will the final products come with lever handle? ( I just see the on/off switch only ) Thank you:act-up:


----------



## DavecUK

KopiO said:


> The Profitec picture only an example to show that I like the traditional square boxes design machine rather than ugly design like this minima . I also noticed the Minima E61 group head does not come with the lever handle as it would like the original E61 lever. Will the final products come with lever handle? ( I just see the on/off switch only ) Thank you:act-up:


Thank you again for yet another pointless post as it's not likely they will do a complete redesign of the machine just for you unless you think they will? For sure if you like the traditional square box and the additional maintenance of the lever E61 group, you should definitely not even look at this machine or thread any more. To continue reading this thread would just make you unhappy with the ugliness and lack of a lever handle. You are not at Oxford or similar university and find yourself being "triggered" by the Minima are you?


----------



## Hasi

Dave at his best, hilarious!









Other than that, I'm looking very much forward to all progress on this little bundle of wow.

If it turns out to be feasible I'd love to see a plumbed version or mod kit (replacing the reservoir if space becomes an issue: just a tank inlet to fill the boilers with a descaling agent...?).

Have fun alpha-testing!


----------



## Stanic

Well we all saw that coming, didn't we


----------



## Jony

Stanic said:


> Well we all saw that coming, didn't we


 We sure did.


----------



## KopiO

Thank you Dave for clarify these.


----------



## Batian

KopiO said:


> The Profitec picture only an example to show that I like the traditional square boxes design machine rather than ugly design like this minima . I also noticed the Minima E61 group head does not come with the lever handle as it would like the original E61 lever. Will the final products come with lever handle? ( I just see the on/off switch only ) Thank you:act-up:


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## Jony

Yes agree my wife looks like a orgre and 28 stone.


----------



## Rob1

DavecUK said:


> Fitting is at top of boiler, but tube goes into boiler. The water level rises in the service (steam) boiler when it is refilled and drops in the machines plastic water tank.. The two boilers are independent, there is no HX or preheat and it's not needed.


Good to hear. Just asking as the main reason I'd want to upgrade is the current annoying problem with the expobar in which the thermosyphon becomes inactive when the service boiler refill is triggered and a brew path without an HX is much preferred


----------



## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> Good to hear. Just asking as the main reason I'd want to upgrade is the current annoying problem with the expobar in which the thermosyphon becomes inactive when the service boiler refill is triggered and a brew path without an HX is much preferred


It's actually a different problem with the Dual boiler expobar. The design of the machine itself causes it and almost by definition as they age, this cooling of the group (due to stalling thermosyphon) becomes much more likely. Sometimes it cools a little as enough can just bubble round. It really isn't down to the HX refill. The HX simply feeds water to the brew boiler preheated by the steam boiler HX. The problem is the thermosyphon loop exit is at the very top of the brew boiler (or always used to be). Any leaks in the sealed brew path and the level can drop. This then slows or stalls the thermosyphon. This leak can happen with a leaky one way valve, leak in top group valve etc.. Rocket probably came across the problem with the R58 after they designed it and solved it by inclining the brew boiler from vertical.

The best place to take water from a boiler if possible is about 10-20% down from the top and back in as close to the bottom as you can.

It's one of the reasons the old Izzo Alex and similar HX machines with rotary pump machines could stall out...they had an anti backflow valve that would sometimes leak and drain out the HX sufficiently to stall the thermosyphon.


----------



## Daren

Hasi said:


> If it turns out to be feasible I'd love to see a plumbed version or mod kit (replacing the reservoir if space becomes an issue: just a tank inlet to fill the boilers with a descaling agent...?)


I'll second that.


----------



## DavecUK

I thought it time for a little update on the Minima:

Some photos and then some steamy porn. New photos at album link https://flic.kr/s/aHsmjXgJPi

The Minima and Steaming











Enjoy!


----------



## Jony

Some power in that.


----------



## Stanic

thanks, just the kind of distraction I needed tonight









nice wand action







I like the " modern-retro overhead" design a lot, the three hole tip gives a lot of power indeed, very nice!

the stainless boilers look great too, the water tank is conveniently large


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> thanks, just the kind of distraction I needed tonight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nice wand action
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like the " modern-retro overhead" design a lot, the three hole tip gives a lot of power indeed, very nice!
> 
> the stainless boilers look great too, the water tank is conveniently large


I did measure what it held, I think it's 2.5 litres....it certainly holds plenty. Infact, unbeknownst to a lot of people....I do these sorts of tests to any machineI review, it's just that I never really bother mentioning it. I just say it's a strong or weak steamer etc..


----------



## Stanic

it would be nice to have OPV adjustment accessible on top (like ECM Casa f.ex.)


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> it would be nice to have OPV adjustment accessible on top (like ECM Casa f.ex.)


It's being looked at was an the Alpha feedback list....I think it's mentioned in passing in the Vid. It shouldn't need adjusting, but it's a nice to have feature. The only concern is if it compromises the integrity of the Expansion valve. The adjustable ones can sometimes start leaking from the adjuster. A common problem with some of the cheaper Expobar adjusters, it took about 1 year of feedback for them to finally stop using the horrible ones. I think they hjad a customer liason at the time that passed NOTHING back to the company. This was a long time ago now, perhaps 6 or 7 years.


----------



## Stanic

DavecUK said:


> It's being looked at was an the Alpha feedback list....I think it's mentioned in passing in the Vid. It shouldn't need adjusting, but it's a nice to have feature. The only concern is if it compromises the integrity of the Expansion valve. The adjustable ones can sometimes start leaking from the adjuster!


yup, that's why I mentioned it too









given the need to perhaps adjust it once and forget about it, it wouldn't have to go through the casing anyway

hmm..I didn't know there are also non-adjustable ones







but given the lack of reports about that part failing, I guess it is not much of a worry..would a scale build-up be the most common reason for a leak?


----------



## Stanic

lol I've just noticed...the n in the minima lettering in front of the driptray refers to the shape of the steam wand


----------



## Hasi

looking very promising so far!!


----------



## Stanic

Dave, did you try the same beans on Vesuvius and Minima? could you comment on the taste?


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> Dave, did you try the same beans on Vesuvius and Minima? could you comment on the taste?


Funnily enough I have tried the same beans on the V as the Minima, mainly because having the Niche Zero makes it very easy to accurately change grind back and forth for the two machines. The Grind difference is 4 points finer for the Vesuvius than the Minima because of the long preinfusion slow ramp profile I use on the Vesuvius.. Have tried as both long drinks and espresso as well, yesterday I was on spros all day...The difference is there between the two machines. With the Vesuvius being a finer grind and longer extraction profile, as usual you get everything, so the roast has to be good (which mine is). The drinks are both good, the Minimas standard profile perhaps more forgiving of lesser roasts than the Vs profile (but of course the V can be adjusted to be the same as the Minima).

Imagine it a bit like listening to an old 78rpm recording, completely unfiltered, you get everything, but that's not what you really want to make it pleasant to listen to, Minima vs Vesuvius high extraction profile = Minima wins. Then take a much better quality modern recording, you don't really want filtering, you want everything, because the starting material was good. If filtering is applied to a modern recording, it doesn't make it bad......just "less"...Vesuvius high extraction profile vs Minima = Vesuvius wins.

But like I said, the Vesuvius can be adjusted so it's versatile, this means at worst it's always going to be a draw.


----------



## Stanic

good analogy









yeah I value that opinion as you claim to be a supertaster and I think my palate is well developed too

any idea when the beta machines might materialize?


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> good analogy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah I value that opinion as you claim to be a supertaster and I think my palate is well developed too
> 
> any idea when the beta machines might materialize?


Well just to clear up one thing, have a good palate is a lot more valuable than being a super-taster. As a super-taster, tastes can overwhelm me e.g, strong cheese, strong fish, curry's etc.. Cucumber and Celery taste quite strongly to me. So assemble a plate of what might seem to most bland food, I'm in taste Heaven, give the same plate of strong tasting foods, game, chillies, onions etc.. and I'm in taste hell. Sometimes getting it all for me can be a bit of a curates egg!

We are a while own the road for the Betas. Firstly suppliers have to be resolved, you may not have noticed but the laser cutting of the word Minima on the Alpha machine drip tray was WAY under par, whereas the first supplier that cut one on a very early it was fantastic (see photos). So getting all the ducks in a row with suppliers is very important. Technically the Minima works really well, steaming, water, brew temperature and pulling a shot, but there are some issues to resolve a little bit of redesign here and there. All depends on how much time ACS can put to it, but it could be a month or more.

Good, bad and alternative:


----------



## Stanic

I prefer the italics style much more, looks dynamic


----------



## ashcroc

Looks to me like the middle one was written/cut at too low a resolution.


----------



## Stanic

one more thing







could you show us the driptray with the top removed?


----------



## Hasi

Stanic said:


> one more thing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> could you show us the driptray with the top removed?










you can't await it do you? ...same here... luckily there's still some time to collect funds!


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> one more thing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> could you show us the driptray with the top removed?


It's a simple slide out plastic driptray underneath the metal one.

  IMG_20180516_092740_tn by davecorbey, on Flickr


----------



## Stanic

interesting design, no rattle


----------



## Hasi

Stanic said:


> interesting design, no rattle


Yea I totally see a no-rattle-potential as well. Depends on final execution, though







is this planned to be an injection moulded part?

Speaking of drip tray, would there be enough room to fit a set of scales underneath a cup?

Just saying: I'm totally caught up in the thought of a plumbed replacement tray


----------



## Stanic

Hasi said:


> Speaking of drip tray, would there be enough room to fit a set of scales underneath a cup?


as per available info, for sure

drain-able drip tray might be user-available







such as do-it-yourself lol


----------



## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> Yea I totally see a no-rattle-potential as well. Depends on final execution, though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is this planned to be an injection moulded part?
> 
> Speaking of drip tray, would there be enough room to fit a set of scales underneath a cup?
> 
> Just saying: I'm totally caught up in the thought of a plumbed replacement tray


Yes, there is room for scales underneath a cup and even a tall mug if it's not too tall. The water collector under the drip tray is planned to be an injection moulded part. in a way this makes it quite easy to drill out for a drain hole if some catcher (with a drain tube is planned to be placed beneath this tube....although that is not really factored into the design..The idea is to keep the cost down as much as possible and the quality of essential functions high. Things that are important like the espresso shot quality, the steaming, the boilers, no rattles, quiet pump...these are all priorities.


----------



## _shakeyjake_

Do you think a plumbed in version is likely to happen?


----------



## DavecUK

_shakeyjake_ said:


> Do you think a plumbed in version is likely to happen?


Doubtful.


----------



## ashcroc

DavecUK said:


> Doubtful.


Not too surprising considering the aim to produce at HX budget. Would be nice if rhey could offer optional extras like nicer handles etc.


----------



## Stanic

You can always get third party wooden PF handles


----------



## jimbojohn55

Stanic said:


> You can always get third party wooden PF handles


or get a lathe and make them yourself for the shiggles - although in retrospect it makes the handles quite expensive ...


----------



## ashcroc

Stanic said:


> You can always get third party wooden PF handles


True but it'd be so much easier to add the option when purchasing. Car manufacturers do it all the time so it's not entirely leftfield & the base model would still be there for the budget concious.


----------



## ashcroc

jimbojohn55 said:


> or get a lathe and make them yourself for the shiggles - although in retrospect it makes the handles quite expensive ...


Would need to build a workshop to house the lathe first so doubly so.


----------



## Stanic

ashcroc said:


> True but it'd be so much easier to add the option when purchasing. Car manufacturers do it all the time so it's not entirely leftfield & the base model would still bebthere for the budget concious.


Surely they could offer the PFs for Vesuvius as an extra option


----------



## DavecUK

All this stuff adds cost and you will never please everyone, so far better the standard portafilters at a cost effective price. The handle (you only get 1) is not glued on with threadlocker, which means you can easily unscrew it from the double and screw it on the single...IK mean you only ever use one handle at a time. This way you can buy what ever handles (or handle) you want and screw them onto the existing portafilters. So 2 portafilter basket holders, 2 baskets and 1 handle...makes sense. The whole idea is to leave customisation down to the user....and the manufacturer just makes one machine....with one lot of standard accessories. I'm also suggesting no crappy plastic tamper, no crappy brush etc.. again to keep costs down....

It's about spending the money on the important stuff.

now I am not saying they couldn't let you buy Vesuvius portafilters and V naked portafilters as extra accessories....of course you can...but then that's a choice people can make. I suspect most will want to choose a custom handle....me I like some of the old style bakelite (art deco) ones.

Or even colours:


----------



## Stanic

Guess the PF handle uses the typical M12 screw Dave? What about the steam tip thread size? M10?


----------



## DavecUK

I have a question for people reading this thread. Currently the Minima has a dual pressure gauge on the front to measure service boiler pressure and brew pressure. By definition these have pipes to the service boiler and brew boiler or high pressure line to the brew boiler. This means that they measure Vibe pump head in bar and steam pressure in bar. These gauges are OK, but not super accurate. I have discussed with Paolo the concept of actually not doing the gauges the traditional way, but changing this up a little to reflect more modern thinking and ways of doing things.

I want to actually lose the current multicoloured dual gauge completely...no hole in panel. Use the existing Gicar display to alternate between brew boiler temp and steam boiler temperature....steam boiler temperature is far more accurate (we don't need bar). Then on the front of the group, where that little Allen bolt goes, mount a small pressure gauge in a similar way to the erics thermometer thing.

*
The problems with a standard dual gauge are:*


2 points inside the machine that have the potential to leak

less chance of build errors and crooked gauges

More clutter inside the machine when working with 2 capilliary pipes and the back of the gauge in the way

The gauge itself has 2 bourdon tubes which even if 1 leaks eventually means gauge replacement

Just another thing to clean low down where it can get splashed with stuff

Brew pressure is always tending towards pump head due to gicleur/coffee puck restrictions


The advantage of a gauge on the group is that it eliminates all these potential problems and measures pressure seen by the coffee in the portafilter as it's AFTER the gicleur in the top of the group. This actually gives a great view of dynamic pressure seen by the coffee puck. If then you wanted to know the absolute pump head, you can simply lock the blind filter in the group and then you will see that pressure...ideal for setting up the pump. The old style pressure gauges are simply a "Spanish custom" due to the far less complex electronics in the machines a few decades ago. Also if the gauge goes wrong or leaks you can spot it immediately and it's simple and easy to change!

I'd like to know what people think and when I can get a photo of the Minima with this on I will post?


----------



## ncrc51

Great idea.


----------



## Stanic

Yes please


----------



## Hasi

Yes please! That'd be quite useful









Been thinking about adding one to my Rocket Evo II for quite some time - never looked nor cared about what the other gauges said (apart from calibrating pump pressure every once in a while)...


----------



## _shakeyjake_

Sounds like a good idea from the points your laid out.


----------



## Batian

As an espresso novice, I would be inclined to follow the lead of experience as I did with the Gene and Amazon.....from the same same stable of mods.

Would your suggestion make significant price changes, up or down?


----------



## 7493

Excellent idea! Would also be a marketing plus.


----------



## Hasi

Batian said:


> As an espresso novice, I would be inclined to follow the lead of experience as I did with the Gene and Amazon.....from the same same stable of mods.
> 
> Would your suggestion make significant price changes, up or down?


Rather downwards, if any, as there's less internal plumbing and fiddling.

Temp readings will always tell you if the boilers are ready - and you need thermostats, anyways.

It might be a bit of a nerdy feature, some may argue... BUT... it'll help you improve your shots because you'll get an idea of what is happening to the puck as you're extracting


----------



## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> Rather downwards, if any, as there's less internal plumbing and fiddling.
> 
> Temp readings will always tell you if the boilers are ready - and you need thermostats, anyways.
> 
> It might be a bit of a nerdy feature, some may argue... BUT... it'll help you improve your shots because you'll get an idea of what is happening to the puck as you're extracting


In terms of price, it certainly won't increase the price and allows other improvements on the machine that could not otherwise be done and keep within the target price. I suppose it's Nerdy, but the right place to really see brew pressure is after the Gicleur and not before. I was worried it might look ugly tacked on the front of the group, but the Lelit Bianca has one and it looks OK. Lelit use theirs with a Valve to you can see the pressure changing and manage it.....and they also have one in the brew circuit showing pump head. For me I realised that the group one is all that is needed, as the Minima is not going to have a variable pressure system in the group.

Lelit thought of that first and it's not cricket to copy is it....

I have however been looking at small (ish)variable frequency drives as a way of properly controlling the pressure of Vibe pumps...but that's all experimental at the moment....and part of other projects of mine.


----------



## Rhys

A pressure gauge on the group-head is where it should be IMHO, as that's where you want to know the pressure at the puck.

Also, since this machine looks to have an on/off switch to stop/start it instead of a lever, what about a built in timer? I doubt it would cost much to add and would give an instant read-out and is one less thing to have to do. One that resets itself when you next switch it on. It could go in place of the analogue pressure gauges mentioned above.


----------



## Stanic

the PID works as a timer when pulling a shot


----------



## Stanic

could the OPV return hose be connected to the front of the pump, like with the Dalla Corte Mini?


----------



## Rob1

Sounds like a great idea!


----------



## Nikko

Stanic said:


> could the OPV return hose be connected to the front of the pump, like with the Dalla Corte Mini?


No doubt it could but for what benefit?


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> could the OPV return hose be connected to the front of the pump, like with the Dalla Corte Mini?


I don't know what your reasons are for wanting this, however there is a little bit of discussion around the expansion valve plumbing and type at the moment anyway....so the area is still a bit fluid as to final configuration.


----------



## Stanic

DavecUK said:


> I don't know what your reasons are for wanting this, however there is a little bit of discussion around the expansion valve plumbing and type at the moment anyway....so the area is still a bit fluid as to final configuration.


One less hose in the tank, dripping around when pulled out...

Seems like you liked that solution in your review of Dalla corte mini


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> One less hose in the tank, dripping around when pulled out...
> 
> Seems like you liked that solution in your review of Dalla corte mini


Ah sorry now I realise what you mean....it's interesting I had forgotten about the plumbing of the dalla corte and yes, I did like the solution.Thanks for reminding me.


----------



## tohenk2

DavecUK said:


> I have a question for people reading this thread.
> 
> ...
> 
> the machines a few decades ago. Also if the gauge goes wrong or leaks you can spot it immediately and it's simple and easy to change!
> 
> I'd like to know what people think and when I can get a photo of the Minima with this on I will post?


I think I would like that.

It is done on more machines (for instance the La Pavoni Giotto models).

Actually there were some videos and posts about it some 2 years ago which lead me to order the part. It will be delivered tuesday ?


----------



## Stanic

Are they turning on and off the machine to get to 9 bar?

Edit..ah I see in the description he's got it modified


----------



## Stanic

I wouldn't mind the group gauge to be digital

















perhaps there are even some with pressure and temperature reading?


----------



## malling

Interesting read, not everyday you see someone trying to launch a machine with two steel boilers and such a massive steamboiler within that price range... the spec is certainly attractive if your into that sort of machine.

It should put some pressure on the other E61 DB machines if not the hx to. That can only be a good thing!

I hope it dos well, but I guess the design paradigm is form follows function.


----------



## DavecUK

malling said:


> I hope it dos well, but I guess the design paradigm is form follows function.


For this it's function, price and form. It has to work superbly well for steaming (and here it's fantastic) and espresso, have NO rattles and all essential functions. Price needs to be super competitive and the form needs to be practical. I was a little worried about the angled front, but after using it for quite a while now, I really like the practicality of that shape. Stuff just doesn't get in the way and plenty of working space, somehow the shape works really well from a use standpoint.

There have been a number of things to fix as far as the Alpha design goes. I think around 17 or 18 "must do" changes, some a little challenging, before I am happy with it. Most are technical and affect short and long terms function, a few practical and aesthetic. Hopefully overall these will end up only increasing the base cost a tiny bit, I'm not sure they can be completely cost neutral. It will of course deliver a better machine and draws on 13 years of experience in seeing how other companies have done things and avoiding the mistakes of the past.

In a way it's refreshing to help design a machine that is not trying to be leading edge or terribly clever but is simply trying to be very good at what is does at a great price.


----------



## Stanic

DavecUK said:


> The handle (you only get 1) is not glued on with threadlocker, which means you can easily unscrew it from the double and screw it on the single...


Could they also not glue the spout on, let it be easily removed? I've just ordered a triple spout


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> Could they also not glue the spout on, let it be easily removed? I've just ordered a triple spout


I'd like it, but the things come from the manufacturer like that, I already loosened and twisted mine round 180 deg to a more sensible position. The reason, without thread-locker they spin around and won't sit at exactly the right orientation and no one has time to muck around with PTFE tape.


----------



## Stanic

Fair enough, I must've had luck with the ones I've unscrewed









The double spout that came with miss silvia was bloody hard to remove but stayed in a correct position when screwed back on tight and the thread has let me screw the single spout on in a convenient position too

I've also forcibly unscrewed the double spout at work, for better cleaning, and it also screws back on in a correct position


----------



## El carajillo

I have overcome the problem of locating the removable spout by using a 12.7 X 2 mm "O" ring on the thread against the shoulder.

This enables me to change / remove spouts but also locate them in a fixed position:good:


----------



## DavecUK

The custom group gauge arrived for the Minima here it is on one of the early test machines at ACS. I am pleased because really it's the perfect place to measure pressure and simplifies the internals. I think the Gauge looks good, but because of how the holes are drilled to meet correctly within the solenoid operated E61, there is a slight angle to the left. As you can see the gauge points this way very slightly. I personally don't think it matters at all, but a gauge is on it's way for me to fit and have a look. For me the advantage of a gauge on the group itself far outweighs any slight angle.









The advantages are

1. Less complexity inside and less chance of leaks

2. More space inside for other changes

3. Super easy to change gauge if it ever goes wrong

4. The ability to do some other cool stuff better, future proofing (I can't talk about it at the moment)

5. No more panel mount gauge

*So curious as to what others think, if it's not exactly straight left/right?*


----------



## Stanic

The tilt is barely visible,I wouldn't know if you didn't say it's there


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> The tilt is barely visible,I wouldn't know if you didn't say it's there


As an engineer I can see it, but I want to see it in the flesh to get a feel for whether people will be bothered by the slight off centre or not (I think it will be OK). Technically it's the best way, but aesthetically is my concern. The group manufacturer is being contacted to see if the hole can be straightened a little more, but we don't know if that's possible and the group still function OK?


----------



## ZappyAd

I wonder if / when the machine gets beyond beta if this sort of thing would affect its sales potential in the marketplace. The angled front and the slightly tilted pressure gauge might be 'marmite moments' for some potential buyers. Sure there will be lots of users who love the 'uniqueness' but it might put some people off. From reading coffee machine related forums posts across the net it seems like a lot of users of high end gear are very careful / specific / perfectionist / slightly nuts about how things look. Only an issue if you want to sell lots of them I guess.


----------



## Batian

I have a tendency to agree with ZappyAd above.

I have had two La Pavs through my hands of late and the gauge on both was 'not true'. Only mildly irritating, but still caught the eye. A bit like a very small dent in your brand new car that you are responsible for! Your eye catches it all the time when others probably do not notice.

Would it be a deal breaker?

I suspect that would depend on the price of the machine compared to the market, and just how much the sellers can swing the considerable benefits of the gauge. If the gauge is 'off set', it starts to ring "afterthought"!

Could it have a secondary bracket/shims so it shows square?


----------



## Hasi

ZappyAd said:


> I wonder if / when the machine gets beyond beta if this sort of thing would affect its sales potential in the marketplace. The angled front and the slightly tilted pressure gauge might be 'marmite moments' for some potential buyers. Sure there will be lots of users who love the 'uniqueness' but it might put some people off. From reading coffee machine related forums posts across the net it seems like a lot of users of high end gear are very careful / specific / perfectionist / slightly nuts about how things look. Only an issue if you want to sell lots of them I guess.


I copy that.

As a designer, I follow the rule of ‚slight tilts should always be avoided' (even if intentional), because it simply won't look right in the eye of a buyer/user.

If it's not possible to achieve alignment, technically, then rather go for an obvious angle (it could even be argued to improve readability when angled more upright...?)


----------



## DavecUK

ZappyAd said:


> I wonder if / when the machine gets beyond beta if this sort of thing would affect its sales potential in the marketplace. The angled front and the slightly tilted pressure gauge might be 'marmite moments' for some potential buyers. Sure there will be lots of users who love the 'uniqueness' but it might put some people off. From reading coffee machine related forums posts across the net it seems like a lot of users of high end gear are very careful / specific / perfectionist / slightly nuts about how things look. Only an issue if you want to sell lots of them I guess.


The angled front, at first you think ah that looks a bit strange, but after using it for over a month, I'll be absolutely honest, functionally it's great, makes absolute sense and gives the space needed without making a large machine. So I actually really like it now, even though Initially I was not sure.

You are right, those who buy* very *high end gear are perfectionists and some even buy brand...Fortunately this isn't slipping into that category at all, in fact it's 100% not aimed at those people....This is a machine built in such a way as to deliver high end performance at low end price. I have documented over 26 changes required to the machine from it's current Alpha state (very few of them actually visible). My years of experience of 50-60+ machines and the mistakes made have been used to try and avoid the silly gotchas. I'll give you a flavour of some:


The expansion valve is on the hot side of the machine, I've asked for it to be moved to the cool side (e.g. working on the pipe leading too and not from the boiler.). Why, because I have seen it on the hot side of a few machines e.g. QM etc.. and it always causes problems. Does it work where it is on the Alpha...yes, is it in the right place for me? No. Is it going to be moved...yes. Would anyone have ever known...no.

The gauge on the group...I've already explained.

Using a better quality expansion valve, that's also easy to adjust - would anyone have ever known...NO, but I would have known.


There are loads of little things like this, a lot of them no one would ever realise and it would have been easy just to let them build it a certain way...but it wouldn't have been right.

So it's going to be a value priced machine that functionally should perform as well as a premium priced machine and possibly better in some areas. Steaming is one of it's great strengths...it steams really well. Not just because someone runs the boiler really hot to give a good "initial" puff of steam, but because the boiler is well sized and doesn't need to run super hot. A solenoid E61 gives super low maintenance and with a Vibe pump doesn't need a preinfusion chamber (which it doesn't have). You can flush the group with cleaner and no need to dismantle for lubrication afterwards. In addition there is more usable space on the drip tray for cups. It doesn't Vibrate, partly because of the way it's constructed. So yes...it's functional, not aspirational if that makes sense.

Do I enjoy using it...yes, is it a better steamer than my Vesuvius...absolutely yes....It's one of the best steamers I've used in a prosumer machine and I am confident in saying *NOTHING* remotely similar to it's resale value will steam anywhere near as well, not even in the same league. For a budget price it should functionally perform well to give coffee after coffee for many years with minimal maintenance.

As for selling lots....I am not sure the aspirational machines will sell in the numbers that a functionally correct, high performing "budget" priced machine will. Remember it's a proper PID twin boiler with 800ml and a 2.3litre AISI 316L boilers(not 2 tiny little 500ml boilers, or a small boiler and a thermoblock). It's not trying to be terrifically clever, or difficult to maintain/expensive to fix. So I hope for ACSs sake it sells lots...

P.S. I've sort of got used to it and it does grow on you.....


----------



## DavecUK

Batian said:


> I have a tendency to agree with ZappyAd above.
> 
> I have had two La Pavs through my hands of late and the gauge on both was 'not true'. Only mildly irritating, but still caught the eye. A bit like a very small dent in your brand new car that you are responsible for! Your eye catches it all the time when others probably do not notice.
> 
> Would it be a deal breaker?
> 
> I suspect that would depend on the price of the machine compared to the market, and just how much the sellers can swing the considerable benefits of the gauge. If the gauge is 'off set', it starts to ring "afterthought"!
> 
> Could it have a secondary bracket/shims so it shows square?


Sadly no it can't be shimmed, it's the group hole and thread that is not "square". It will be sad if it rings "afterthought"...because then sadly the gauge will remain on the front panel and the pressure taken from the usual places. Not ideal, but the way it's always been done and that most manufacturers do it. Worse still, other functional opportunities go off the table.....

The whole things as I am sure you realise isn't an afterthought at all, but it may be another example of where consumer opinion will dictate a worse solution and outcome for them functionally. Mind you, it happens all the time with espresso machine design.


----------



## Batian

Thanks for the detail in your replies above.

I understand where you are coming from, and I assume you punted the question out to the forum to gauge (pun intended!) what market opinion would be?

Is there no way it could be 'squared up' without a major rethink on the design so that all the pluses (and future pluses) can be retained?

If it were just me and (a few others on the forum), I am sure we would be swayed by your argument. Many of us have had the benefit of your input with other coffee related machinery.

I bought the Gene and the Amazon largely due to your work.

I am not so sure about people who do not have the same info that are 'in the market' for a machine.


----------



## Hasi

Same here!

Even though the Minima will likely attract nerds like us (







), it will be sold in stores - sitting next to its competitors.

Obviously, first thing is to focus on a working solution. Final execution comes second, however needs some preparation.

My opinion - just saying Dave! I'm sure we'll see a prefect finished product in the end of the day. The fact that you mentioned this tiny detail of a misaligned part shows that you care and wouldn't simply let slip


----------



## tohenk2

I can see the tilt, but don't mind it one bit. The advantage of seeing what the pressure is on the puck, not on the pump is huge.

! sorry for he side-step: I now have got the exact same group gauge on my V. Guess what? the slow ramp-up in pump pressure shows as 0 on the puck while the pump says something like 4bar, until the profile switches to 9 bar and water starts getting through the puck. If nothing else this info gives you a better insight and a feeling of more control over the proces. I now can extend the pre-infusion phase until the gauge reading is the same as the one from the pump-sensor.


----------



## slamm

I think if this wasn't explained beforehand a lot of people if they noticed this might think it had just received a bit of a knock. Lets face it, most things like this are built straight, so if it is noticeably wonky the potentially dangerous thought might occur that it could perhaps be yanked back into shape, which might work or it could spell disaster.


----------



## Rhys

Jeez, that's a hard one to think about tbh. Being a plasterer (which is a finishing trade) I'm drawn immediately to anything that is even slightly out (usually window reveals). I think it's given me O.C.D. to the point where my Sat Nav annoys me in my van if it isn't straight.. Sad I know, but in my job the usual phrase is 'plasterers will get over it' and then we get the blame if anything isn't right.

I'd be looking at it and thinking 'maybe a little bit of tweaking and it'll straighten up..'









As a prototype it's fine though.. Certainly the best place for it.


----------



## Headgoboomboom

Everyone's face is asymmetrical anyway!


----------



## DavecUK

A pressure gauge arrived to day and I fitted it to the Minima E61 group. Unfortunately the amount it is over to the left is not acceptable....such a shame. I also tried it on the Vesuvius and on that it's dead straight and fine! The difference is the V has a lever E61 group and the Minima a solenoid group and for some reason they angle the hole on the solenoid group. I assume it's a technical reason, but I cannot see why an extra machining step in the CNC couldn't make the threaded portion straight. The group manufacturer is being asked if that can be done....so I am keeping my fingers crossed.

Here it is nice and straight on the Vesuvius


----------



## DavecUK

I thought I would post a little Vid of the gauge working on the Vesuvius.


----------



## Stanic

Pretty interesting, nice pressure profile


----------



## rob177palmer

DavecUK said:


> I thought I would post a little Vid of the gauge working on the Vesuvius.


That's brilliant addition. I hadn't realised the V had such an unusual pump noise - presumably due to the gearing?


----------



## tohenk2

rob177palmer said:


> That's brilliant addition. I hadn't realised the V had such an unusual pump noise - presumably due to the gearing?


The RPM changes to change the pressure - and you can hear the differences in the strain, vibrations and resonances in the system.


----------



## DavecUK

Sadly because the hole in the group is angled to the right and the gauge of course is then angled to the left..............it does not quite look right. Knowing how people are about things like this, It's very unlikely a suitable group mounting will be found for the Minima. So it will be back to the good old panel mount gauge. Unfortunately this takes more space inside, so it rather removes the possibility of using that space for something more creative.

It looks great on the Vesuvius though, because on lever groups the holes are straight!


----------



## ashcroc

DavecUK said:


> Sadly because the hole in the group is angled to the right and the gauge of course is then angled to the left..............it does not quite look right. Knowing how people are about things like this, It's very unlikely a suitable group mounting will be found for the Minima. So it will be back to the good old panel mount gauge. Unfortunately this takes more space inside, so it rather removes the possibility of using that space for something more creative.
> 
> It looks great on the Vesuvius though, because on lever groups the holes are straight!


Could the gauge possibly be mou Ted on a flexible stalk? That way you could angle it any way you wish.


----------



## DavecUK

ashcroc said:


> Could the gauge possibly be mou Ted on a flexible stalk? That way you could angle it any way you wish.


I did think about that, but it would be vulnerable and not really look right. I just know how OCD people can be about such stuff.


----------



## iulianato

Hi @DavecUK,

Could this pressure gauge be made available at a reasonable price If of any interest from other e61 users of course?


----------



## Hasi

iulianato said:


> Hi @DavecUK,
> 
> Could this pressure gauge be made available at a reasonable price If of any interest from other e61 users of course?


How about that one?










Item code no. 5530011 on https://www.lamacchinadelcaffe.com/en/manometri-la-pavoni.html


----------



## DavecUK

Well a little update on the Minima, with much more to come.

The alpha machine has performed really well. It produces a good shot, I have had it on for 15-16 hours per day (both boilers) since beginning of May, thats almost 2.5 months. About 3 times I have left it on for 48 hours at a stretch....just to really heat it up. I used it almost exclusively for a few months, interspersing it with Bianca prototype use for a few weeks.The alpha is super basic in some of the functions it actually lacks (e.g. the Alpha doesn't even have low water detection, unlike the betas to come) and I am sure people remember it was heavily damaged in transit. Even so it's worked faithfully.

So on to the Beta machines....with many of the little gotchas being worked through and eliminated from the beta machines....yes I suffered some pain, but not too much. The Beta machines are to be built shortly. The specifications have been agreed, the fights have been had. Will they be different from the final production machines...perhaps in a few little areas (if they can be ironed out). Will they actually perform as well as a production machine...yes of course. In fact it's fair enough to say that the performance of the Alpha is excellent and sets a performance standard that doesn't (and won't) need to be improved. We're talking about non espresso production related functionality here.

*Remember the overarching objective was to try and make a dual boiler machine with excellent, if not exceptional performance in some areas, but build down to a price in certain non critical areas. *The areas where I am always unwilling to see too much compromise is in internal mechanics, thermal design, performace and maintainability....so that's where much of the cost lies. The biggest barrier to people adopting dual boilers is price...and often the low priced machines have tiny brew and steam boilers e.g. 500ml each, or a brew boiler and thermocock! Often these machines don't even have a proper PID. The Minima is simple, no flowmeters, fancy displays or new fangled doodads. just fairly solid engineering that's simple and proven.

*
Accessories that come with the machine are envisioned as:*


3 portafilter bodies, single double and naked (bottomless)

2 portafilter handles (up from only the one







)

double basket, single basket and blind filter

2 steam tips 3 hole and 2 hole (for those that can't handle the power)

Perhaps something else if your really lucky


However there won't be any cost added with some crappy plastic tamper, coffee scoops, cloths or group brushes.....

The plastics on the machine e.g. handles or knobs work but are basic quality....if you want better, you can simply buy the custom stuff you want...again this all keeps costs down. I will put some specifications up but it's basic, you will get all the stuff you need and expect as a minimum from a dual boiler machine and no extra fluff, no whipped cream and sprinkly bits. Again it keeps the price reasonable and gives you everything you need, if not everything you might want.

*ACS have a VERY ambitious RRP target of £1150 - 1250 (GBP)for the final production Minima, I don't know if it can be achieved (in fact I am slightly sceptical)*, but as you can imagine, there is not a lot of fat in it......and *they really don't know how close they can come to £1150, it's a target, the production machine I think may well come closer to £1250!*



*
*I've set them a challenge on price for the beta machines and they are going to have a think about it and crunch some numbers on the back of a coffee bag. This is because it's all a bit complex when you are this early on in things not sure exactly what they cost and need to recoup development costs as well over a machines production lifetime. *Now IF my challenge was: "can you do Beta Dual Boiler Minima machines for £999", I think that would perhaps been an easier ask and still cheap for a Dual boiler but I wanted it to be less, quite a bit less!*

They have gone away to to think hard about whether they can do it or not. We might well be talking about beta Dual boiler Minimas, for less money than a mid range HX machine and a little more than a budget HX. Remember this is a machine with AISI 316L steel boilers, 2.3 litre service boiler, 800ml brew boiler, Gicar PID and electronics!

I will keep you guys posted and put up an Alpha review with additional information on the beta machines specs as soon as I can.


----------



## ncrc51

Still interested in being a U.S. beta tester.







Politics aside it's still an important market. Also, please don't retire!


----------



## Hasi

I'm in please - based in Austria


----------



## ZappyAd

Why do they need to include so many portafilters, baskets and handles? Are they so cheap that including them doesn't really affect the price? Surely just having one of each would cut costs and allow them to get nearer to a target price. You could always sell additional baskets etc as add on items with possibly a higher markup. It just seems a bit odd to sell it as a 'value' machine and then include bits of metal and plastic that are going to go straight into a drawer (you can after all only use one portafilter at a time).


----------



## Nikko

The Minima comes across as a dog's dinner. An e61 DB at a low cost is ok, but doing away with the preinfusion capabilities of the e61 is a big negative. It is also a small foot print machine so why cram in a larger than necessary steam boiler when the extra volume has a marginal effect on steaming performance and same can be achieved at a lower cost by upping the pressure 0.2 b or so or a touch more powerful heater. May be 2.3 litre boilers happened to be available.

Not at all impressed with a company that is not able to do its own commissioning, snagging and testing, particularly that the design is based on standard components.


----------



## DavecUK

ZappyAd said:


> Why do they need to include so many portafilters, baskets and handles? Are they so cheap that including them doesn't really affect the price? Surely just having one of each would cut costs and allow them to get nearer to a target price. You could always sell additional baskets etc as add on items with possibly a higher markup. It just seems a bit odd to sell it as a 'value' machine and then include bits of metal and plastic that are going to go straight into a drawer (you can after all only use one portafilter at a time).


I suggested a Single handle, but ACS thought it was a bit too mean...so they added one to make it 2. As for portafilter baskets if you got the naked a single and a double, then at least when you splash out on different handles e.g. wood, you already have the baskets and can just buy a handle kit...a lot cheaper for you, or have made, just the handles.. Of course I can suggest to them that they cut out the accessories and offer 1 handle, one portafilter body and a single and double spout, with a single and double basket....but I think it might piss people off. Their business is really selling machines, not accessories. The problem with accessories is you have to try and please everyone and it's a lot of stock. A portafilter body is a portafilter body, it fits the machine and if you got 3 of them then all you need to buy are the handle/handles you like....this way everyone is happy...or so I thought.

It would certainly shave a bit more off the price...probably cost people 3 times what it cost the factory to buy them though.....*One thing to be aware of, this machine is aimed at the people who want to be able to make great espresso, want something that works just as good as the more expensive aspirational machines, but are not cash rich. They can afford a decent HX, but can't make the stretch to a good dual boiler and decent grinder.* This gives them the ability to move to a dual boiler without a performance compromise, get a decent grinder and at least have everything they need accessory wise to tide them over for a long time. later when they are a bit flush Birthdays and Christmas can bring those luxury presents like wood fittings and other toys that are expensive frivolities they may not be able to initially afford.

P.S. I see Nikko is posting, thank god he is on my ignore list . I'm not bothering to unblock and read what he says. I just assume he has learnt nothing and still knows nothing, so there's really nothing to see







Please don't quote him guys, because then I will have the pain of seeing whatever garbage he has written.


----------



## ashcroc

DavecUK said:


> I suggested a Single handle, but ACS thought it was a bit too mean...so they added one to make it 2. As for portafilter baskets if you got the naked a single and a double, then at least when you splash out on different handles e.g. wood, you already have the baskets and can just buy a handle kit...a lot cheaper for you, or have made, just the handles.. Of course I can suggest to them that they cut out the accessories and offer 1 handle, one portafilter body and a single and double spout, with a single and double basket....but I think it might piss people off. Their business is really selling machines, not accessories. The problem with accessories is you have to try and please everyone and it's a lot of stock. A portafilter body is a portafilter body, it fits the machine and if you got 3 of them then all you need to buy are the handle/handles you like....this way everyone is happy...or so I thought.
> 
> It would certainly shave a bit more off the price...probably cost people 3 times what it cost the factory to buy them though.....*One thing to be aware of, this machine is aimed at the people who want to be able to make great espresso, want something that works just as good as the more expensive aspirational machines, but are not cash rich. They can afford a decent HX, but can't make the stretch to a good dual boiler and decent grinder.* This gives them the ability to move to a dual boiler without a performance compromise, get a decent grinder and at least have everything they need accessory wise to tide them over for a long time. later when they are a bit flush Birthdays and Christmas can bring those luxury presents like wood fittings and other toys that are expensive frivolities they may not be able to initially afford.
> 
> P.S. I see Nikko is posting, thank god he is on my ignore list . I'm not bothering to unblock and read what he says. I just assume he has learnt nothing and still knows nothing, so there's really nothing to see
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't quote him guys, because then I will have the pain of seeing whatever garbage he has written.


Personally I wouldn't have a problem having just a naked & standard portafilter bodies with single & double spouts. A lot of machines will only come with a standard portafilter with double spout so it's still ahead of the competiton & on a budget friendly machine to boot!


----------



## Stanic

Great offer at a great price! My head is spinning regarding machines atm and I've decided, when the time comes, to get something with pressure profiling..might even end up with the Decent Espresso


----------



## Jony

Or even a Vesuvius, you never know


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> Great offer at a great price! My head is spinning regarding machines atm and I've decided, when the time comes, to get something with pressure profiling..might even end up with the Decent Espresso


so you would pay (2500 usd), currently about £1882 + 20% VAT = £2258 + shipping. It sounded like it has a Vibration pump...and I think weighs aound 12Kg...it seems a lot more expensive than when they were first talked about all that time ago. I would have thought 28Kg of Vesuvius with a quality gear pump and commercial control board for less money might prove a better long term investment?

There is a certain something about the Vesuvius that does make it a bit special in the way it works, but you only see that when you stick a blind filter on it and see what it does. It was also evidenced by the separate brew pressure gauge I fitted to measure pressure at the top of the coffee puck. The two guys from the forum say the difference between what a Vesuvius does and what other machines don't necessarily do....Unless it's a LM Strada EP of course....but hey we're talking about the Minima here. Only competing for the people who want to spend small for big performance.


----------



## ncrc51

I want to spend small for big performance.


----------



## Stanic

Vesuvius would be sweet


----------



## DavecUK

ncrc51 said:


> I want to spend small for big performance.


As you should...but sadly there won't be any US beta versions...I am sorry about that.


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> Vesuvius would be sweet


Well I like mine.....even when I am not using it and testing something else....it's always on. Comes on at 8:50 am and goes off at Midnight every day since I got it.....of course me saying that is probably the kiss of death for it. The Minima seems particularly robust considering the treatment this poor old Alpha machine got from the couriers. Still it will never be shipped again, I don't think it would survive, it will just get tender loving care here. I sort of feel sorry for it.


----------



## Stanic

the Minima would fit in our kitchen nicely


----------



## Nikko

Most people do not make coffee with a blind filter so what the pump does is not of great interest. The Vesuvius would benefit from the pressure transducer being downstream of the restrictor jet - at least the manually adjusted Bianca gets true pressure indication.

There are already at least two DB machines with full pid on the market for under £1200 so the Minima is not ground breaking.


----------



## ashcroc

Nikko said:


> Most people do not make coffee with a blind filter so what the pump does is not of great interest. The Vesuvius would benefit from the pressure transducer being downstream of the restrictor jet - at least the manually adjusted Bianca gets true pressure indication.
> 
> There are already at least two DB machines with full pid on the market for under £1200 so the Minima is not ground breaking.


Why do you keep trolling this thread when it's blatantly obvious you're not interested?


----------



## ncrc51

DavecUK said:


> As you should...but sadly there won't be any US beta versions...I am sorry about that.


Understood. I remain very interested int the machine. I'm sure it will hit the retail market here soon after production begins.


----------



## DavecUK

ashcroc said:


> Why do you keep trolling this thread when it's blatantly obvious you're not interested?


The problem for him is he is really showing himself up a bit to be honest. His comments are so worthless and ill informed, his views so entrenched, it is pointless me trying to inform him, or even discuss with him. He twists words, make statements about what someone has said that are untrue, but might be his interpretation. The 2 people from the forum who were in my kitchen that day understood when I showed them, but Nikko would need a LOT of explaining before he understood and even then his entrenched views and intense desire to prove me wrong in everything I say would probably get in the way.

What he ought to ponder is; no one is asking him to test prototypes, help with design, of grinders, espresso machines and roasters are they?


----------



## Paolo_Cortese

ncrc51 said:


> Understood. I remain very interested int the machine. I'm sure it will hit the retail market here soon after production begins.


I'll consider you as tester due of the fact that i have also a 110 volts version as well.


----------



## Nikko

DavecUK said:


> The problem for him is he is really showing himself up a bit to be honest. His comments are so worthless and ill informed, his views so entrenched, it is pointless me trying to inform him, or even discuss with him. He twists words, make statements about what someone has said that are untrue, but might be his interpretation. The 2 people from the forum who were in my kitchen that day understood when I showed them, but Nikko would need a LOT of explaining before he understood and even then his entrenched views and intense desire to prove me wrong in everything I say would probably get in the way.
> 
> What he ought to ponder is; no one is asking him to test prototypes, help with design, of grinders, espresso machines and roasters are they?


my goodness, what a lot of vitriol for pointing out a few factual things about the Minima.


----------



## DavecUK

Nikko said:


> my goodness, what a lot of vitriol for pointing out a few factual things about the Minima.


----------



## DavecUK

Tonight or Tomorrow if I get time, I will try and produce an update on the Beta Status of the Minima, how many machines will be available and how much they will cost. Specifications may be subject to change, the production machines may have differences to the Beta Machines depending on feedback and the beta machines may not be upgradeable to full production specification. It's not anticipated that there will be very much change to the production specification, but you never know. The Alpha machine has been extensively temperature tested and works well, I am not aware to any changes to any part of that specification e.g. thermosyphon water flows etc..that would affect temperature stability. I am still waiting to hear on a couple of things before I can do the post and of course factory testing of all the changes from the Alpha is still needed.

I will be getting a Beta machine at the same time as the rest of you (perhaps a day ro two sooner, I don't know)...the reason for this is to complete a full review, internal walkthrough, user guide etc..which will eventually be used for the production machines, and ensure no unforseen problems. It's why I said there will likely be little change from Beta to production.

Also be warned, if there is an unforseen problem resulting in a design change to the production machines, you may be sent parts to fit to correct it. Any warranty as usual would be parts only! It's also fair to mention that all the drip trays have a spline pattern used for the lettering, resulting in an angled effect (aliased) rather than smooth curves. This will uniquely identify beta machines as production machines will have smoothed curves to the laser cut lettering. The reason for this is purely practical....they already have a stock of drip trays and it would cost a lot to throw those away, aesthetically they look fine and it keeps the price down, also no wait to have new ones done..

I am really quite busy with 3 projects at the moment and on a bit of a deadline with one of them....so I will do my best to keep on top of the Minima stuff and the reviewing.


----------



## DavecUK

Oh if only you guys knew of the arguments and crushing disappointment...well of the designer, not me.

*designer* "How about this"....

*me* "no not good enough"......

*designer* "sigh...OK I'll review it tomorrow"

Ah it's all fun and games....but ultimately it delivers the best it can for the money. Nothings perfect, but at least it can be right.


----------



## Rob1

Eagerly awaiting further news...but until then who's this Nikko guy people keep talking about?


----------



## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> Eagerly awaiting further news...but until then who's this Nikko guy people keep talking about?


Don't start







....you will trigger him for god sake....he is easily "triggered"

P.S. Stop with all the likes...those will also trigger a certain person....


----------



## M4xime

The more I read about this machine the more I think it would fit my needs as I'm upgrading from a Classic with PID and have a budget of £1-1.2k and looking to pair it with a Niche.


----------



## Nikko

DavecUK said:


> Oh if only you guys knew of the arguments and crushing disappointment...well of the designer, not me.
> 
> *designer* "How about this"....
> 
> *me* "no not good enough"......
> 
> *designer* "sigh...OK I'll review it tomorrow"
> 
> Ah it's all fun and games....but ultimately it delivers the best it can for the money. Nothings perfect, but at least it can be right.


A lot of words which say nothing. Pure marketing bollocks. You might as well be talking about placement of the badge.


----------



## DavecUK

Nikko said:


> A lot of words which say nothing. Pure marketing bollocks. You might as well be talking about placement of the badge.


You are right, my reviews are so full of marketing bollox. I really should be more like WLL, or the two old ladies, just unbiased solid information from sales people. Of course in my conversation I was talking about the placement of the badge....oh, no, the Minima doesn't have a badge, perhaps it was the colour of the knob on the water tank....nope it's still black. Perhaps it was nothing important...I like to comment on unimportant stuff. Look I am commenting on your post so it must be true. Nikko don't you ever read one of my reviews, or watch one of my videos...so much crap in them, there is also the risk that you might learn something by accident.









I assume Nikko is triggered again


----------



## DavecUK

Just a small update....some arguments and some progress on ensuring everything is acceptable (at least to me). I won't say perfection, because perfection costs much more money. I have been able to agree a price with Paolo for the beta machines. It's a cheap price, to reflect the fact that these are budget machines, but not in performance. I hope I am setting expectations OK. They don't have the beautiful finish of a Bianca for example, but I think look pretty damm good. certainly the Alpha is going to look fine for years to come, because they are all stainless, boilers very good quality and they don't rattle (well the Alpha doesn't). I will when I get time (just so busy)....give a more detailed write up, but some things to be aware of.


Lettering on drip tray is spline not smoothform (error made during laser cutting parameter input), so they are "aliased" slightly rather than smooth curves (so being used on Betas, because too expensive to throw away), my Alpha has same tray so go look at photos

Multicoloured gauge will be used, because it's unknown whether the groups can be drilled differently at this time (the brew pressure only) on some gauges might flicker some might not, some might flicker sometimes...we don't know why

The expansion valve is being replaced for one that costs a lot more (same as on duettos izzo alexes etc..)

water tank is cheap as chips...but then if you need another one it's cheap as chips to replace (but it holds loads and fits into a very small space). It can be a tad tricky to wiggle in and out, but does come out for cleaning

There is no plumbed option

The venting can be a tad splashier than I would like (which will most likely be fixed in production drip trays). It's not terrible, but you will want to wipe the droplets with a sponge near the vent after a shot I am making it sound worse than it is I think.

The catcher underneath the drip tray is a hard plastic and thick. I actually like it, but just so you know

The top (cup warmer) is relatively unsohpistcated, just a single ventilated plate above the internals and the water tank cover is equally unsophisticated, it just lifts off.

Boilers are AISI 316L Surgical low corrosion steel. 8mm thick end plates and 2mm thick walls (which is pretty thick), heating elements are long life Incolloy 1400W. They are sealed boilers, which is great for no leaks and the long life heating elements mean they should be good for a very long time....so I'm not worried. Descaling is facilitated by removable fitting thing (which has an O ring on service boiler) and similar blind fitting on brew boiler that has an O ring. However, better to not let it scale up!


I can't think of any other gotchas or possible areas of concern. the Alpha works really well has pulled loads of shots and seems reliable. Sure there are quite a few changes, some quite big, but the impact on performance has been assessed (mainly by me) and I believe the Betas should perform as well as the alpha functionally to make espresso and steaming. Remember it's a Vibe pump machine, with insulated 800ml brew boiler and 2.3 litre service boiler, plus a small footprint.

*I should also be getting a beta to test before any of you get yours.*

So down to the price....the RRP they are looking at is £1150 to £1200. The build cost is pushed up by certain internals and the cost of custom firmware for Gicar stuff also has to be amortised in. However to reflect the fact that the Beta uses up parts that are already done, like the drip trays and will be used to assess any *absolutely necessary* changes to the final production machines. Also the fact that you may be sent a part and asked to fit it....a keen price will be available. I don't envisage the production machines will be hugely different to be honest, mainly the drip tray and getting the letters smooth.

*I pushed it down as hard as I could and the proposal is the betas should be available for £849 plus I think a £20 contribution for airshipping (the airshipping contribution is yet to be confirmed). This is a cost recovery price, not a trying to profit heavily from Beta testers price! The prices of course include VAT and 2 year parts warranty, fully transferable*



*
**There will be only 10 beta machines made available...so that's the proposal, I think in principle ACS are cool with it BUT I still await 100% confirmation! *Remember it's a dual boiler for less money than an equivalent class HX, it's also proper quality gicar stuff you will find in prosumer dual boiler machines. Not some cut down cheapie PID like system. It's a proper dual loop PID, it has last shot protection as well


----------



## 4085

So, when does the order book open then Dave, or are you electing likely candidates?


----------



## DavecUK

dfk41 said:


> So, when does the order book open then Dave, or are you electing likely candidates?


Waiting for more definite facts, the completed beta build to have completed testing in Italy, both software and hardware (ongoing at the moment)....then a final price, to see if they can stick to what I'd like to see. Then I will see who is still interested. hopefully a few more working days.


----------



## Nikko

DavecUK said:


> You are right, my reviews are so full of marketing bollox. I really should be more like WLL, or the two old ladies, just unbiased solid information from sales people. Of course in my conversation I was talking about the placement of the badge....oh, no, the Minima doesn't have a badge, perhaps it was the colour of the knob on the water tank....nope it's still black. Perhaps it was nothing important...I like to comment on unimportant stuff. Look I am commenting on your post so it must be true. Nikko don't you ever read one of my reviews, or watch one of my videos...so much crap in them, there is also the risk that you might learn something by accident.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I assume Nikko is triggered again


I do agree with you when you say that your reviews are full of marketing bollocks, or just bollocks. . Take for example the one where you compared a Mazzer mini with a Eureka. You measured the no load W and VA and on that basis pontificated on the Eureka's motor superior power and how important that was. This is deception - only you know whether wilful or through ignorance. When pointed out to you your response was that you could not be ars*d to change it. Strange attitude for an impartial reviewer?

I have no problem with the Minima and wish it well. Bigger choice of machines can only be good. There are already machines available at the target price range that can do the same as the Minima or more. Ultimately, any db machine based around an e61 and the same industry standard components will perform very similarly so the choice is on styling or quality of build. If you had commented on anything important then I have missed it. The whole beta testing charade of a machine that is based on standard tested components is pure marketing.


----------



## DavecUK

Nikko said:


> I do agree with you when you say that your reviews are full of marketing bollocks, or just bollocks. . Take for example the one where you compared a Mazzer mini with a Eureka. You measured the no load W and VA and on that basis pontificated on the Eureka's motor superior power and how important that was. This is deception - only you know whether wilful or through ignorance. When pointed out to you your response was that you could not be ars*d to change it. Strange attitude for an impartial reviewer?
> 
> I have no problem with the Minima and wish it well. Bigger choice of machines can only be good. There are already machines available at the target price range that can do the same as the Minima or more. Ultimately, any db machine based around an e61 and the same industry standard components will perform very similarly so the choice is on styling or quality of build. If you had commented on anything important then I have missed it. The whole beta testing charade of a machine that is based on standard tested components is pure marketing.


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## Hasi

Nikko, this forum is meant to be helpful and informative. Obviously, we don't agree at all times. But what the heck is it between you and Dave?!

Even if you might have good arguments we don't get them since you keep diluting everything in cheap shots and other rubbish.

This here thread is about beta testing a machine and addresses folk interested in taking part or following development process. OT statements make it very hard to find actual information within a conversation.

So, maybe calm down, think trice and proof read your inputs in a quiet minute before posting them?


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## Jony

@DavecUK I am glad I don't have to choose the testers,haha


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## moots

Im interested in a beta machine (greenhorn) @DavecUK

Thanks for organising!


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## DavecUK

Well my injured Alpha minima is sitting in storage and a beta Minima arrived yesterday. I needed to perform a little job on it yesterday...beta stuff and It's sitting on the counter having happily made coffee last night and this morning. It's looks similar and different to the alpha, because there have been a few little improvements and the first thing I have done is temperature testing to ensure any technical changes I asked for have not adversely affected things. After 1 hour and 2 hours I can certainly see no problems with temperature control in the brew boiler....in fact it's probably a little better. I have to repeat the tests in 4 hours time, and then I can finalise any settings tweaks. These may come as standardised firmware (so that's what you get on a PID reset) in other betas, or you may have to manually put them in....it depends on Gicar not ACS. It's really just a convenience, because most machines reset to standard gicar settings when you reset the PID...it's no biggie.

As for rattles...because of it's construction and design, there are none, so no change from the Alpha there. I have plugged it into a little Meross 13A Wifi plug, set it to come on every day at 9:00am and off at 11:59. It's my first ever WiFi plug and I'm loving it. Fully integrates with Alexa, super fast and easy to set up. The Meross app sits on the phone, monitors power consumption, allows on off schedules etc..needs no special hub. I don't know if it uses a server somewhere, will turn the Internet off later and find out... Meross Smart Plug WI-FI MSS310. I got it on a lightning deal, 2 for £19, wish I had purchased 4 now









https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07FL3L77V/ref=asc_df_B07FL3L77V54491774/?tag=cfukweb-21&creative=22146&creativeASIN=B07FL3L77V&linkCode=df0&hvadid=256110712503&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16433252517252305851&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006592&hvtargid=pla-474908223806

Other than that just going to run for a day, enjoy the coffee and complete thermal testing. Tomorrow I remove Minimas clothes and start a video review of the inside and outside and the production of a proper review. So far it's looking good....especially as packaging improvements (will probably be the finalised packaging) prevented damage in transit.


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## Jollybean

As a matter of interest Dave, what is the power consumption when the Minima is left on all day?


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## DavecUK

Usuall.y E61s are about 70W ish, but there is some variance, partly to do with gasket thickness behind the group, mass of metal within the group and radiation area, plus the radiation of the metal the group is bolted to and it's temperature. The monitor was on the Minima today and the steam boiler is not currently on. So far Minima has averaged the same power as a 60W bulb. So left on from 9 am to midnight the machine will use approx 950W in total including warm up power. so less than15p, depending on what you pay for electricity.

If the steam boiler is on that increases it, and it's difficult to say, because no one should really be leaving the steam boiler on all day, that's just not necessary. You can flip the steam boiler on and in 6 minutes or so you are good to steam (it's a big boiler).


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## Jollybean

Thanks Dave. Useful info and pretty cheap to run. Might have to get one of those widgets you mentioned.


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## DavecUK

Jollybean said:


> Thanks Dave. Useful info and pretty cheap to run. Might have to get one of those widgets you mentioned.


That plug thing, yeah it's the first one I ever bought so I don't have experience of anything else, but really easy to set up. Plug in wall, download app, name the plug in app, put in wifi password and job done. took it downstairs plugged it in and it was working. 1 minute later had added the Alexa skill. another minute later had programmed a weeks worth of on/off times. The only drawback I can see is you need to have a working internet connection for it to function, but I imagine they are all like that. I suppose the more expensive stuff that needs a home hub might continue working, but i doubt it.

I do think it's excellent though and I can see Minima has used 1kw since 11:00 am today, although have have had the steam boiler on for quite a few hours now. The fact they can each be given a name and monitor energy usage is great.


----------



## Hasi

Thanks you the update Dave









Is there a timeframe for the other beta units and to whom they ship?

Still highly interested!


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## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> Thanks you the update Dave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a timeframe for the other beta units and to whom they ship?
> 
> Still highly interested!


Factory now closed for2 weeks and Paolo on holiday...so nothing will happen for a couple of weeks. I have found 1 little Gicar programming error on steam boiler displayed temperature, which may take some time to have reprogrammed. There is a workaround on the settings so that the full range of performance is available and the steam boilers maximum allowed temperature (limited by all gicar PIDs) is available. The workaround is a 1 time change you make in the PID settings. The impact is 0, it's just an irritation. The decision will be whether to allow Beta testers to have the machine with this programming error, or delay by weeks to have Gicar correct it. The error was introduced when Gicar programmed some extra and required functions into the PID.

I will explain the error:

The machine switches between showing steam and brew boiler temperatures. The brew boiler temperatures and settings are all fine. However the steam boiler only ever reaches a temperature about 3C less than you set on the PID, it never reaches the temperature you set.

PID set to 127 = only 124C achieved as verified by gauge and shown on PID

PID set to 130 (it's max) = only 127C achieved as verified by gauge and shown on PID

So the PID shows the right temp, the gauge verifies it as does a thermocouple (long story). It's just that when you set the steam temp, a 2 quick presses of the left hand PID button to get into stam temp setting, it always shows as about 3C higher than what you get. As the maximum you can set (hard limit by Gicar) is 130C, unless you change the offset in the advanced menu, it only reaches 127C I am assuming they made a simple calculation error.

*This is can easily overcome by going into the advanced Gicar setting menu, where you control PID setting etc.. (left and right button pressed and power on) and simply give the steam boiler a 3C offset. This fixes the problem mostly. I say mostly because now*

PID set to 124 = only 121C shown on PID but heating stops at an actual 124C achieved as verified by gauge

PID set to 127 = only 124C shown on PID but heating stops at an actual 127C achieved as verified by gauge

PID set to 130 (it's max) = only 127C shown on PID but heating stops at an actual 130C (the max hard limit imposed by Gicar) achieved as verified by gauge e.g. almost 1.7 bar

In simplistic terms, the temperature reaches any temperature you request, but when the PID is swapping between brew and service boiler temps, it tells you it's 3C lower than it actually is on the service boiler only. The impact is zero in terms of having the full service (steam) boiler temp range available, it does reach the temperature you set (because of the offset fudge), it just lies to you about it later. If people don't care about that, it won't impact beta timescales, if they do, it could add 3 or 4 weeks to timescales. Me I don't really care, because the gauge is correct (and all the Betas will have a pressure gauge), it reaches the temperature I set correctly, it's just that every few seconds when it flashes to steam temperature, it shows me a temp 3C lower than the actual. As I never look at that anyway....I sort of don't care.

The important thing is you can set it from 100 to 130 and get steam pressures from 0 - almost 1.7 bar. That's all I care about, because once it's set, you are not ever going to bother to change it. It's a set and forget function, if you like steaming at 127, why would you ever bother changing it?

In production machines and especially if they eventually have only a group pressure gauge, then of course it has to be changed...but in betas that already have a pressure gauge, it's whether beta testers consider that important enough for them to not participate, or delay the beta into mid late september. *I personally think it would not be worth delaying the beta for this as it's real impact is purely cosmetic and it would be good so see more machines in the field before the end of the month.. *

*
*

* This is a Video made after I did the 3C offset setting (to correct the bug) in the advanced menu and shows the PID and the zero impact it has in actual performance.*

*
*











Other than the bug introduced by Gicar in the reprograming, everything else is as expected and the machine is performing well. In fact in some areas due to a few technical changes, even better than before.


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## Rob1

Sounds like a completely inconsequential fault really. I really like the steam wand symbol.


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## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> Sounds like a completely inconsequential fault really. I really like the steam wand symbol.










Well it's great till it falls off...but a dab of super glue soon fixes it









The machine is working really well and testing is totally successful at the moment. Espresso shots are very good even with old coffee. Steaming is excellent as it was on the prototype. Low water detection and last shot protections is working as it should. Sound of vibe pump but absolutely no rattles....a welcome change. I have thought of a few more accessories that I think are needed, I'll ask if they can be added at no extra cost.

I though people might appreciate some photos. So at this link you can find a small Minima photo gallery.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!Asx_Hxo4gvfkkx6BD15aJrUjY-Xp


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## Rob1

I didn't think about the angled side actually giving the machine more room for things like milk jugs to sit. On the expobar the jug ends up perched on the edge if you want to steam while pulling a shot.


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## Hasi

Thanks Dave for the images!

One thing especially caught my eye: would them handles come separated from PF holders?

Would be a bit of extra work to get going as is. However, as you've stated they're gonna be rather basic folk might wanna switch immediately to something more @joey24dirt -ish  And we all know how hard it can be to get handles off when they were glued on in the first place.

Just some food for thoughts


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## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> Thanks Dave for the images!
> 
> One thing especially caught my eye: would them handles come separated from PF holders?
> 
> Would be a bit of extra work to get going as is. However, as you've stated they're gonna be rather basic folk might wanna switch immediately to something more @joey24dirt -ish  And we all know how hard it can be to get handles off when they were glued on in the first place.
> 
> Just some food for thoughts


The handles do come separate....I suppose screwing a handle on does take a few seconds, and if you screw on both handles, I guess it could take 10 or 15 seconds but infinitely preferable to having them threadlocked in.



Rob1 said:


> I didn't think about the angled side actually giving the machine more room for things like milk jugs to sit. On the expobar the jug ends up perched on the edge if you want to steam while pulling a shot.


It's surprising how much difference it makes to have that extra space away from the business end of things...


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## DavecUK

In the current fashion of very long threads and the iterative process seemingly favoured by all. I'm sharing a bit more of what I do in review. Often I grab video, just so I can go back to it as part of the review process (evidence based reviewing). I may need to prove something to myself, or examine something in greater detail. I wish I had had the pressure gauge in this shot, I only realised after looking at it that I didn't. Of course as part of my review process, I know what happens so am not to bothered, but if it was a Vid for more public consumption I would have it. Also just a simple statement of weight in and out. I did a voice over so it hopefully puts it in a better context. It shows you the sort of long shot I find the minima capable of (e.g. 55-60 seconds), as well as the more conventional shorter shots....although due to the slower ramp rate and flow, it seems to prefer to do shots around the 40 second mark and beyond.. Many machines would end up simply fracturing the puck trying the longer shots unless they were more specialised like the Bianca and similar pressure/flow profilers.

The upshot is you can grind quite fine and get a good shot, or coarser and get the more conventional shot. Interestingly this was more serendipity than design, it is as a consequence of design decisions for other purposes...but when using the Alpha machine I quickly discovered it's ability to do this type of long shot really well. Enjoy..............I just hope I don't awake the sleeping dragon.


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## Jony

That is a nice shot, really thin line as well, I am sure mine are not,haha


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## Nikko

What is it about the Minima that gives it the ability for a gentle pressure rise. Presumably the Minima is better than lesser machines like the Silvia or Classic, yet has the same pump and lack of mechanical preinfusion of e61.


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## Stanic

DavecUK said:


> Enjoy..............I just hope I don't awake the sleeping dragon.












a really nice, thick shot


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## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> a really nice, thick shot


I suspect very similar to the comments I have not read


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## DavecUK

Some more Minima porn.











I see someone on my Ignore list has posted something or other that's presumably unimportant again.............and i feel certain should in the rare event of them posting something of merit, someone will tell me.


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## Nikko

Nikko said:


> What is it about the Minima that gives it the ability for a gentle pressure rise. Presumably the Minima is better than lesser machines like the Silvia or Classic, yet has the same pump and lack of mechanical preinfusion of e61.


the non answer to the question can only be taken as confirmation that the Minima does not have any special properties regarding pressure ramp rates, compared to other machines with Ulka pumps. And why should it be better as it has done away with the e61 preinfusion.

Being a dual boiler the Minima will have better temperature than the likes of a Silvia and Classic but on the negative side the heater elements are not replacable, risking that the whole machine will become scrap when complete replacement boilers are no longer available.


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## Rob1

The answer is in the video. Preinfusion occurs due to the low flow rate.


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## jj-x-ray

Apologies for my ignorance, but what's the significance of the long shot. I've done what I thought are long shots on my classic either by accident or deliberately. Some of them were very good, to my taste at least. Are we saying that it wouldn't have been a true long shot as the puck would likely have been ruined? Also wouldn't other e61 machines be able to do this too?


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## DavecUK

jj-x-ray said:


> Apologies for my ignorance, but what's the significance of the long shot. I've done what I thought are long shots on my classic either by accident or deliberately. Some of them were very good, to my taste at least. Are we saying that it wouldn't have been a true long shot as the puck would likely have been ruined? Also wouldn't other e61 machines be able to do this too?


It was done with a naked portafilter and usually the dual boiler machines with rotary pumps don't do the very long shots that well 50 or 60 seconds (rotary pumps commonly used have high water debit and quick ramp). you can of course use tiny Gicleurs, but this gives you other problems. I was surprised how well shots held together and for similar reasons the old Expobar Brewtus II produced good shots, but it had other problems that left something to be desired. For sure any E61 with the same Gicleur, Pump (specification) and group would be able to do shots like this. The pump is not an ULKA, you could replace it with an ULKA and as long as you got one with the right characteristics (not the usual one) I suppose it would work the same way. Would it be a dual boiler and cost £1149 though...probably not.

The significance of a long shot is you can grind very fine and still produce a shot without the puck compressing and choking. This gives you flavour...even a Normal shot takes around 40 seconds and seems to give optimum results compared to the 30s and under shot. My Vesuvius has pressure profiling, so it gives me a good feel for the slower ramp, reduced flow and lack of puck compression and how things react differently. If your classic with a Naked portafilter clearly pulls a shot that maintains it's temperature, doesn't break up or barbers pole or whatever...the extraction starts evenly across the whole puck...followed by no dead spots...then yeah, your classic is pulling a blinder. Carefully study the Video at 17-19 seconds, see how it all comes out nice and even across the bottom, that's what we want to see happening.

Any machine can do it if the combination of flow, gicleur size and pressure ramp happens to come together in the right way. As i said and will happily repeat, this wan't by design, it was pure luck and a consequence of designing for other things. It could have been good, it's turned out to be very good.


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## jj-x-ray

Thanks for the detailed explanation


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## Rob1

Nikko did briefly raise a point that might be of concern to some people so:

Dave, assuming some future doomsday scenario in which ACS go bust, and boilers are no longer being made for espresso machines and/or none of them will fit into the minima's casing, would it be possible to have the permanent heating elements cut out from the bottom plate, and have the hole threaded to allow a new heating element to be fitted?


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## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> Nikko did briefly raise a point that might be of concern to some people so:
> 
> Dave, assuming some future doomsday scenario in which ACS go bust, and boilers are no longer being made for espresso machines and/or none of them will fit into the minima's casing, would it be possible to have the permanent heating elements cut out from the bottom plate, and have the hole threaded to allow a new heating element to be fitted?


In answer to your specific question...The end plates are 8mm thick so yes a solution like that would be possible, probably not easy, probably not cheap, but possible.. The boilers are standard with slight modification, it's why there are blanking plugs, so it may be easier to simply buy another from the boiler manufacturer, if they will sell them directly. The problem with such thinking is it can apply to all manufacturers, all suppliers to manufacturers, all machines will have items that might be problematic if they or one of their suppliers goes out of business:


The design changes (safety regs, rule changes etc..) or suppliers change/no longer manufacture component (happens more often than you think)

The Machine becomes obsolete


Having heating elements them welded in removes manufacturing errors, or assembly errors of screw in elements resulting in leaks. Over time a very common problem is leaking heating elements, it removes that problem and the associated damage that can sometimes happen when trying to replace them. It saves space and a few other issues and makes assembly of the machine easier (thus cheaper). The use of a high grade boiler e.g. 2mm thick (usually they are only 1.5mm in 2kish prosumer stuff) with 8mm end plates and long life (Incoloy 800) elements that resist corrosion and when performing the service they are intended to perform, have a very long life expectancy. These things should keep the price down, improve reliability and I would hope last the service life of the machine.

Should replacement ever be necessary and ACS are still in business, they will be a relatively inexpensive part considering their lifespan. They have been around more than 55 years, so hopefully will continue to be around for a long time yet and they don't just make espresso machines as they are part of a larger operation of beverage machines, and slushie, frozen yoghurt etc.. makers..I thbink they invented the first Granita machine.


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## Stanic

DavecUK said:


> The significance of a long shot is you can grind very fine and still produce a shot without the puck compressing and choking.


Also, a long pre-infusion gives you time to tidy-up the workplace around your coffee maker while pulling a shot


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## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> Also, a long pre-infusion gives you time to tidy-up the workplace around your coffee maker while pulling a shot


Just enough time to do this on a long shot...

[video=youtube;NVTF-CtYVBo]


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## KopiO

Nikko said:


> .
> 
> Being a dual boiler the Minima will have better temperature than the likes of a Silvia and Classic but on the negative side the heater elements are not replacable, risking that the whole machine will become scrap when complete replacement boilers are no longer available.


This is horrible.


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## Nikko

DavecUK said:


> In answer to your specific question...The end plates are 8mm thick so yes a solution like that would be possible, probably not easy, probably not cheap, but possible.. The boilers are standard with slight modification, it's why there are blanking plugs, so it may be easier to simply buy another from the boiler manufacturer, if they will sell them directly. The problem with such thinking is it can apply to all manufacturers, all suppliers to manufacturers, all machines will have items that might be problematic if they or one of their suppliers goes out of business:
> 
> 
> The design changes (safety regs, rule changes etc..) or suppliers change/no longer manufacture component (happens more often than you think)
> 
> The Machine becomes obsolete
> 
> 
> Having heating elements them welded in removes manufacturing errors, or assembly errors of screw in elements resulting in leaks. Over time a very common problem is leaking heating elements, it removes that problem and the associated damage that can sometimes happen when trying to replace them. It saves space and a few other issues and makes assembly of the machine easier (thus cheaper). The use of a high grade boiler e.g. 2mm thick (usually they are only 1.5mm in 2kish prosumer stuff) with 8mm end plates and long life (Incoloy 800) elements that resist corrosion and when performing the service they are intended to perform, have a very long life expectancy. These things should keep the price down, improve reliability and I would hope last the service life of the machine.
> 
> Should replacement ever be necessary and ACS are still in business, they will be a relatively inexpensive part considering their lifespan. They have been around more than 55 years, so hopefully will continue to be around for a long time yet and they don't just make espresso machines as they are part of a larger operation of beverage machines, and slushie, frozen yoghurt etc.. makers..I thbink they invented the first Granita machine.


The boilers are made by a third party company over which ACS has probably little control. This is a lame defence of a manufacturer trying to save a few quid which may cause the owner problems down the line; the same practice the same poster rails against eloquently here.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?45609-Technological-advances-that-are-not-improvements

Clearly different standards apply when it involves a machine one is promoting and marketing.


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## Hasi

I believe you both have a point here.

Sticking to standard components most likely makes repairs easier or cheaper.

But therefore it adds costs as well as we might see failure at an earlier stage.

One thing Dave has been trying to outline was that with a machine as economical as the Minima, one has to balance certain aspects. Which is a tightrope walk in its own right...

In this case: longevity vs. replaceability vs. assembly vs. price.

Isn't it a lot to ask for everything at once?


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## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> I believe you both have a point here.


I am afraid they are both simply being disruptive. One is an idiot and the other doesn't like the machine anyway never did and wants a Decent Espresso machine.



KopiO said:


> Thank you. But the design was ugly. Would like to see this machine in traditional E61 design like this picture show here





KopiO said:


> I want one for sure!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :co ol: ( Go Decent Espresso )


Making comments on components should a company go out of business would apply to any machine from any company, some parts might become difficult to get. They make a massive set of assumptions though and their concerns about going out of business only seems to apply to ACS. Perhaps they ought to go and start making the same "contributions" on other threads. Neither is genuinely interested in the machine, it's performance and certainly has no desire to help. Trying to bring a traditional dual boiler to market at the price point of the Minima, is something that should be encouraged....especially if it helps bring down the price of machines generally, as I think they are all getting really expensive. For the more traditional Italian machine...there's nothing much within that price band.

I think they would love to discourage forum members from being beta testers, I think it would make them really happy should the machine never launch.... Nikko made similar stupid posts on the Bianca thread, and the Niche thread and would have done so on the Dalian Amazon thread had he been around. I have yet to see anything useful (to the coffee world) from him, hence his presence on my ignore list and it may have to grow a little further.











> The Minima comes across as a dog's dinner. An e61 DB at a low cost is ok, but doing away with the preinfusion capabilities of the e61 is a big negative.


Above is something he said way back in July before I blocked him...*all based on supposition with no actual experience or knowledge behind it*..One of my test videos is below. It shows a pressure ramp rate about 60% that of a typical Vibe pump E61 machine, and the time difference totally accounts for the fact that the shots were great at the 40s mark (and the longer shot capability). it should also be obvious that no more "E61 built in preinfusion" with a non solenoid group is required. A rotary pump has a much faster ramp rate with any built in preinfusion barely noticeable. Compare it with a typical vibe pump pressure ramp here






Unlike Nikko, my comments are not pulled out of my backside, or guesswork...but are the result of testing and significant experience. The problem with his mostly inane comments is that they are pulled in such quantity from his nether regions, that there simply isn't enough time or motivation to answer them all. Even when I do bother show one up for the piece of crap it is....he just makes more and his capacity for doing so seems endless.

P.S. I specifically chose a comparison video that was not made by me, but used the exact same system as me.


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## Hasi

I know how you feel Dave. As a designer, I'm under constant attack by the average know-nothings aka. product managers.

Thing is, you do best in educating everybody else in the room (as well as you can pull them on your side) by seriously and thoroughly proving the muppets wrong.


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## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> I know how you feel Dave. As a designer, I'm under constant attack by the average know-nothings aka. product managers.
> 
> Thing is, you do best in educating everybody else in the room (as well as you can pull them on your side) by seriously and thoroughly proving the muppets wrong.


I agree with you, but in this situation it's slightly different. Crap costs nothing, is produced daily or more often and will keep coming whatever we do. Answering a constant stream of crap from muppets takes time and effort, whereas producing more crap is effortless for the muppet. They just sit down and produce more...no thought or effort required. I would hope proving them wrong a few times would be enough.


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## DavecUK

On a lighter hearted tone....I did this just for fun....although I am sure a couple of people might get "triggered".











I can't wait for the Kids to go back to school....


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## _shakeyjake_

DavecUK said:


> On a lighter hearted tone....I did this just for fun....although I am sure a couple of people might get "triggered".


Video unavailable?


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## DavecUK

_shakeyjake_ said:


> Video unavailable?


How odd it was marked as public, but I remarked it and saved it again, because on my other browser it showed as private...should all work now. Explains why it didn't "trigger" an avalanche of crap...









Thanks

P.S. On a more serious note, although it was a bit of fun, it does actually show how evenly the shot sweats out of the portafilter...usually a good sign.


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## DavecUK

I thought I'd better spam another before someone said, we didn't see the whole shot...well I just went and made another coffee, lobbed the phone down and used the front camera again, brave of me relying on it not producing a squirter! Did the whole 42 second shot...I think it held together pretty well. it certainly tastes great!


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## DavecUK

I have finished the review of the Beta machine, for anyone interested it's at the link below:

https://wp.me/p7LpqI-6Z

For people who take up the offer of a beta machine at £849 + £20 airfreight contribution, this is almost certainly the configuration you will get and they should be available from when the factory opens. Unless they decide not to ship any without fixing the tiny bugget on steam temp display first. If they do that, then it could delay things quite a while and involve further functional testing.

Remember



> *I pushed it down as hard as I could and the proposal is the betas should be available for £849 plus I think a £20 contribution for airshipping (the airshipping contribution is yet to be confirmed). This is a cost recovery price, not a trying to profit heavily from Beta testers price! The prices of course include VAT and 2 year parts warranty, fully transferable*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> **There will be only 10 beta machines made available...so that's the proposal, I think in principle ACS are cool with it BUT I still await 100% confirmation! *Remember it's a dual boiler for less money than an equivalent class HX, it's also proper quality gicar stuff you will find in prosumer dual boiler machines. Not some cut down cheapie PID like system. It's a proper dual loop PID, it has last shot protection as well


When I have confirmed orders can be accepted, I will probably list the betas in the for sale thread and prioritise based on this thread and expressions of interest. I know the for sale thread is not the best place, but it allows me to ask the moderators to remove disruptive/trolling posts that make it more difficult to understand who want's one and who doesn't.

The plan is for future machines to be available from a UK reseller and be at full retail price....so you won't be seeing any factory specials after this.


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## Hasi

I'm in!


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## Rob1

Expressing my interest too...


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## dev

Any ballpark figure, price wise, for the retail units? Apologies if this has been asked and answered before.


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## joey24dirt

dev said:


> Any ballpark figure, price wise, for the retail units? Apologies if this has been asked and answered before.


Post 329 is the most recent update on price I think


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## Rakesh

I'm interested.


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## DavecUK

dev said:


> Any ballpark figure, price wise, for the retail units? Apologies if this has been asked and answered before.


 I assume you're not talking about the beta units are you as 2 posts ago on the previous page (33) the price was given and you would have seen it? If you are asking about the Beta units, then you may also not have seen the link to the review which has other important information.

https://wp.me/p7LpqI-6Z

For final retail units the manufacturer has a target MSRP, but it's quite ambitious and I am not sure if it can be met. The reason they have it is because I suggested it as the only way to prevent the final price ballooning and to build backward from a market cost and performance objective. This avoids unnecessary fluff and makes something more people find affordable. It's certainly going to be in the region of 40% more than the special price for these Beta units....it may or may not have some small changes, but it's very unlikely anything big will change.

Of course any final price will be down to any UK/EU retailer that takes on the unit.


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## DavecUK

For those following this thread, please see https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?45898-ACS-Minima-Beta-Machines-creating-list-of-people-who-want-one&p=618422#post618422 as the list for Beta testers is now officially open.


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## robti

Dave is there any possibility of a group buy after the beta's are gone or is it then just full price ?

Thanks


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## DavecUK

robti said:


> Dave is there any possibility of a group buy after the beta's are gone or is it then just full price ?
> 
> Thanks


I have honestly not had that discussion with them....the intention was to sell them through an authorised UK retailer.

There is a problem with group buys that just increase a companies expenses, so I am pretty sure that's not going to happen...group buys don't tend to be 10 or 15 machines to an airport warehouse place on a couple of big heavy pallets, in fact retailers normally arrange their own transport from an Italian port or airport.. People want their machines delivered individually (remember the £20 contribution is only *towards* the cost of airfreighting, it costs more). When the company sells to retailers, the retailers take on the warranty commitments...for the factory it's sell and forget. If they sell direct they would have to offer a 2 year parts only warranty....which has to be costed in. One lot of money is taken..

I also don't know what the full retail price will end up being for sure...I suspect (pretty certain actually) it will be higher than their target. So these betas at £849 (which is incredibly cheap) are likely to end up being £400+ more at retail.


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