# Tamping



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

This could be a good question or another obvious answer.

Is there anything to discover in different tamping pressures ?


----------



## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

I experimented with, nutate, polish, only with the weight of the tamper.

IMHO it made little or no difference which lead me to believe it's more to do with the grind than the weight of your tamping pressure.

Ian


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

EK or normal????

DOn't think normally it makes that much difference, but Gary pointed out a very light tamp on the EK seems to lead to a more even puck saturation - my anecdotal research over the last few days would seem to confirm this


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> EK or normal????
> 
> DOn't think normally it makes that much difference, but Gary pointed out a very light tamp on the EK seems to lead to a more even puck saturation - my anecdotal research over the last few days would seem to confirm this


if I had an EK I would have let everyone know:act-up:LOL , they seem to have their own set of rules.

i was working on the premiss that if you tamp to hard you can choke a machine and this maybe can be compensated in the grind or vice versa similar to what people are experiencing with grinding really fine and discovering that can get away with a token showing of the tamper.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Try tamping really hard, medium and light with the same grind - unless you put your full bodyweight on it the difference probably won't be that significant


----------



## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

The VST baskets don't really work unless you tamp with a very small amount of pressure, maybe about 5-10lb.

I think compressing a puck doesn't really do anything to aid in extraction, it just draws out the extraction, even if it's a bad extraction.

Grinding properly and fine enough, I don't think you should need to tamp hard.

I mean, we all have grinders which could choke pretty much anything - with high quality espresso grind.

EK and its unimodal bulk grinder burrs, not withstanding. (Although I'm still yet to try and I can't say I'm convinced of the EK.)


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Kyle ....Should get out the house to the cafe in Manchester that has an ek and try it ...you then might have some experience to base an opinion on









re tamp , as always least effective variable over dose , grind and distribution , freshness of coffee often one of those is at play over a series of extractions rather than an extra or less 5 lbs of pressure.

Oh as longs a as it's lever ....


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Many, many people use vsts with traditional tamp pressures and get on well.

What reservations do you have about the ek?


----------



## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Many, many people use vsts with traditional tamp pressures and get on well.
> 
> What reservations do you have about the ek?


True as it may be, my experience is grind finer tamp lighter with VST compared to stock baskets.

As with anything, depends what you want and what your used to I guess.

Ask for the EK, just seems a bit faddish and gimicky.

Maybe I'll change my mind if I ever get around to tasting it; but it just annoys me a little that everyone rushed out to buy one after that one guy touted about them....


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I bought an EK after trying many many tasty shots from it and weighing up whether it suited the type of coffee I usually drink. Don't think anyone was daft enough to buy one just because Perger said they were good.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> True as it may be, my experience is grind finer tamp lighter with VST compared to stock baskets.
> 
> As with anything, depends what you want and what your used to I guess.
> 
> ...


Lol..... More important things in the world to get annoyed about Kyle.

And yes I tried one for half a day and a lot of coffee at mine before I bought one ...

Plus if there weren't naive people as early adopters then no one would have one of the forum ...( I think coffeechap and Patrick were the first to have them on here ....I would imagine they gave it a bit of thought before plumping for one )


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> it just annoys me a little that everyone rushed out to buy one after that one guy touted about them....


And don't be so disparaging about the systemic kid....


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Anyway back to tamping .

What was it that was prompting the questions cat ?

Variations in extractions you can't explain or just plain curiosity ?


----------



## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

I guess I just hate the term 'coffee shot'.

I try to get angry about cancer and world hunger, but they can't listen to me rant on the internet.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> I guess I just hate the term 'coffee shot'.
> 
> I try to get angry about cancer and world hunger, but they can't listen to me rant on the internet.


Here is tip for you matt perger doesn't read this either .....


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Kyle548 said:


> Ask for the EK, just seems a bit faddish and gimicky.
> 
> Maybe I'll change my mind if I ever get around to tasting it; but it just annoys me a little that everyone rushed out to buy one after that one guy touted about them....


You referring To Matt Perger? Bit of a lightweight really - doesn't know diddly squat


----------



## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I picked up a new tamper last week, had been using the crappy plastic one for a while.

Before i got it i would say no real difference in pressure applied to the grinds, just get the grind right.

However the last week has seen lots of shots pouring at different times, same grind just different pressure applied, the pressure has been different as i am still trying to find the right amount.

I almost went back to the plastic tamper, then i slapped myself!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> And don't be so disparaging about the systemic kid....


I wish.......


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> I picked up a new tamper last week, had been using the crappy plastic one for a while.
> 
> Before i got it i would say no real difference in pressure applied to the grinds, just get the grind right.
> 
> ...


But what grinder are you using? , as it also gonna be how consistent the grind it produced is.......


----------



## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Yes there is that Boots, the grinder is not a great one, but its does half a job, at least it doesn't have blades.

I did point out the Mignon to the wife on Saturday at BB, she said it was nice, then spotted the price...

I will get one, just have a stag do in Tenerife to pay for first..


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Anyway back to tamping .
> 
> What was it that was prompting the questions cat ?
> 
> Variations in extractions you can't explain or just plain curiosity ?


It was plain curiosity , I have a lot of consistency with my tamp at the moment , but I had noticed lastnight whilst round a friends lastnight and helping him dial in his tamping method was different to mine and the difference could be noticed in the end cup.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Was his distribution in the PF as good as yours ?


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Yes but he was a bit more slapdash with a real heavy tamp. Both drinks were good but just really noticeable . My extraction was a lot more free flowing where as his was more restricted. Which just got me to thinking. I slacked the grind one notch to allow for his tamp,and wallah his extraction became a similar flow/extraction to mine.

this resulted in a massively caffeine induced restless night pondering on the thoughts of tamp/grind variables and the ever recurring quest of getting the best from the coffee.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

More likely than his distribution meant there were some dead spots in the puck somewhere ......but who knows


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> More likely than his distribution meant there were some dead spots in the puck somewhere ......but who knows


Was all good shots, and ended the evening with a happy consistency . I have left myself wondering why after achieving consistency I find myself going down the road of trying to add more variables, sometimes I miss the classic . LOL


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> Was all good shots, and ended the evening with a happy consistency . I have left myself wondering why after achieving consistency I find myself going down the road of trying to add more variables, sometimes I miss the classic . LOL


Pursuit of excellence and what might be ...

The rabbit hole of making espresso ..


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

test post - please ignore - moderator


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Well I'm reading this with interest as I am still struggling to get things right (or even consistent).

What I can say for a fact is that I can go from gusher to choker on the same grind with tamping pressure alone.

I was wondering if that meant I should grind coarser and tamp as hard as I can, or grind finer and tamp to a bare minimum.

I'm usually aiming at about 30lbs tamp pressure, but only practiced briefly with the scales, so although I have a rough idea of what 30lb feels like (as opposed to 3lb), I doubt I'm consistent to within better than 5-10lb.

I can't help thinking that there might be a grind level 'sweet spot' that is somehow forgiving of tamping pressure, because it seems wrong to me that a slight variation in pressure can make it all go so wrong in either direction. But bear in mind I'm a total noob and could do with some 1-2-1 with someone who gets it right consistently! I'm just adding my data to this thread rather than wishing to steer it or offer opinions.

Beans are Union (was Revelation, just started on the Foundation Espresso today). Roast date was early May.

Grinder is MC2, machine is Classic with Auber PID, OPV mod, and I'm using a VST 18g basket with a naked PF.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hi hot metal

Tamp consistent and level doesn't really matter what pressure as long as consistent and level .....

Are u using a bottomless PF to see if your extractions have channeling or dead spots ? Edit yes u are ...

These caused by distribution of ground in the pf are more likely causes of extraction woes

That or a grinder that delivers massively inconsistent grinds...

Clips of prep and extraction can help us

Where are u based ?


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Cheers Mrboots.

I'm in Windsor. It's questionable whether my tech skills are up to making a video of me making coffee but if I get the time I'll try.

I'm using a bottomless PF as you have seen. Extraction is usually fairly even, often resulting in 3 small tails rather than a nice central one though. I've been distributing fairly carefully and am getting nice level pucks which usually pop out cleanly enough. My grinder (MC2) is not the best obviously, but consensus seems to be that they do a good job at the price. Only when I tried a nutate and light tamp did I get a little jet (right in the eye, see Muppetry thread!)

CharlieJ suggested I try the other (standard?) unpressurised basket that I got with by machine, as he thought the VST might be making things even harder for me at this early stage. Sorry, didn't intend to hijack this thread - just to say how much difference tamp pressure is making for me.


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Hello hot metal

Your scales are going to be your best friend for consistency, IMO a methodical and repetitive tamp is more important than what pressure you apply , you say you are from choke to gusher on the same grind, with the information you have given i would say make sure the Dose is the same each time.(hence the scales) Try and keep as many things as constant and eliminate as many variables as you can.


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Yep. Just opened a new bag of beans today, and the scales were on the mat when I got in last night. Robbed some AAAs out of a torch and 1st use was this morning. Now I have everything in place I will be trying to nail everything down and cut down the variables.


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Actually dosing and weighing into basket seems like a bit of faffing about , but will reward you and help setting up your grinder really quickly.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

hotmetal said:


> Cheers Mrboots.
> 
> I'm in Windsor. It's questionable whether my tech skills are up to making a video of me making coffee but if I get the time I'll try.
> 
> ...


VST baskets are notoriously unforgiving - might be a good idea to try the stock basket and see how it goes.


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I think I'd like to state here that whilst generally speaking tamping at 30lbs for every bean at any grind level has definitively been proven to be far less important than tamping consistently, pretty much all of the tests that have been done regarding the effects of tamping pressure have been conducted using high end machines and grinders.

I believe, from 7 years of owning a Classic, that at this level of equipment, as it is generally far less consistent in the espresso it produces and also the grinders commonly used aren't great at providing an very even grind or distribution that tamp pressure i.e. tamping harder or lighter depending on grind level has a disproportionately larger effect than it will do when using higher end gear.


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

That makes sense - paying more for better equipment gives better consistency/repeatability; and it is certainly borne out in my limited experience, that my tamping does indeed have what I would have thought of as a disproportionate effect. For me, with my equipment, I think I'll stick to the 30lb area just as something to stick to (i.e. consistency).

There is an irony there, that the people that need the most help with consistency (i.e me and fellow noobs) are the ones least likely to be dropping £2k+ on the relevant gear. Already I'm wondering if things would be better if I swapped my hardly used MC2 for a Mignon, yet so far my success rate would make spending more money on what is rapidly becoming an obsession seem foolish!

For now (now I have my scales) I'm going to swap to the other basket, dose into a little pot, keep the weight in at 18g, and aim for 30g out in about 30s just by practicing tamping consistency.

I feel as if I may be responsible for taking this thread off track a bit - which was originally about the relative merits of tight grind/light tamp vs coarse grind/strong tamp, and what differences would result.


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

You had validity in your post , it was about tamping LOL hopping you are getting back on track


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I think that some people do forget what it was like to have the entry level equipment and the frustration and joy it brings, keep everything simple, aim fir decent distribution and basket prep, then aim for consistent tamping and you will be able to tweek from there


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Cheers Richard and CC.


----------



## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

You'd do infinitely better to spend more time ensuring no clumps and even distribution than worry about tamp pressure in a VST. Anything around 20-30lbs is fine, as Charlie said, just keep it consistent.


----------

