# Drinking espresso straight



## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

I for one, do not enjoy drinking espresso on it's own. My shots are fine, tastes beautiful black as an americano but as a espresso? Nope.

I feel as if I am alone on this entirely. Most people here seem to love drinking espresso, but it just tastes unpleasant to me. Am I doing something wrong?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

What don't you like about it?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Last poll we did I think over half the people drank espresso based mild drinks over half the time....so you may not be as much on your own as you think.....

Do you ever cup or brew the beans you make as espresso?

Do you like them as brewed without milk or other additions. Do you find tastes at cupping you like?

If you don't brew or cup perhaps give it a go.

If you do and like the tastes they give you as brewed perhaps you can try different brew ratios and temps to find that taste when brewed as espresso.


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## frandavi99 (Jun 8, 2014)

I drink all my coffee black, either an americano or brewed. I don't mind espresso but they are over too quickly. That and I just prefer the taste of an espresso watered down a touch (I usually add about 4oz water to a 1oz espresso).

So you're not alone!


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

You're not on your own at all

I'd say you're in the majority of coffee drinkers - even on the forums

The proportion of espressos sold in coffeeshops is small compared to milky drinks


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

It's amazing how bad a shot can taste as straight up espresso but when you put it in water for a americano it can actually taste great.

What beans are you brewing? What sort of brew recipe are you running? For straight up espresso 18/20g into 35/40g is a good starting point for me in about 28/35 seconds. If you are in this region and you're still not happy then it could be that you don't like the beans, could be the temperature is incorrect.

Let us know where you are and maybe someone can point you in the right direction.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Of course, as others have said, you may not like espresso and that's cool


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> It's amazing how bad a shot can taste as straight up espresso but when you put it in water for a americano it can actually taste great.
> 
> What beans are you brewing? What sort of brew recipe are you running? For straight up espresso 18/20g into 35/40g is a good starting point for me in about 28/35 seconds. If you are in this region and you're still not happy then it could be that you don't like the beans, could be the temperature is incorrect.
> 
> Let us know where you are and maybe someone can point you in the right direction.


Raves IJ, 17g in 28 out. I absolutely adore it as an Americano, I've drunk four today. As an espresso? Just tastes awful.


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

Glenn said:


> You're not on your own at all
> 
> I'd say you're in the majority of coffee drinkers - even on the forums
> 
> The proportion of espressos sold in coffeeshops is small compared to milky drinks


Weird, I don't really enjoy lattes. They taste flavourless to me. Black americanos are great, espressos taste unpleasant.


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Last poll we did I think over half the people drank espresso based mild drinks over half the time....so you may not be as much on your own as you think.....
> 
> Do you ever cup or brew the beans you make as espresso?
> 
> ...


I did try IJ as a brewed coffee about 2 years ago... I can't remember what it tasted like at all. It was pretty nice I think.

I've never tried cupping. Doesn't appeal to me to be honest.

I think I'll dig out the Aeropress at some time and try a brewed cup. I don't have a kettle which might make it hard... only a one cup. I do have a infra-red thermometer though.

Edit: I did try IJ in a drip machine. Was okay... just sucked because it was from a drip machine. I will try brewed at some point and report back.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Try something other than IJ perhaps. World of blends and single origin out there


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

RagingMammoth said:


> Raves IJ, 17g in 28 out. I absolutely adore it as an Americano, I've drunk four today. As an espresso? Just tastes awful.


Maybe try running it to 35/40g, might just sweeten it up a little. Worth a shot. Does your machine have a PID? If so what temp are you brewing at?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

RagingMammoth said:


> Raves IJ, 17g in 28 out. I absolutely adore it as an Americano, I've drunk four today. As an espresso? Just tastes awful.


Define 'awful'?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Try some other beans italian job is a cafe type blend more suited to milk, lots of great roasters out there that you can get a great single origin from


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## spune (Oct 3, 2011)

I'd have to recommend the single origin route too; there are so many coffees out there each with unique tastes and qualities. Half the joy is trying them all and finding the ones you like! Consider the roast profile too, that's not to be overlooked.


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Maybe try running it to 35/40g, might just sweeten it up a little. Worth a shot. Does your machine have a PID? If so what temp are you brewing at?


I run it at 94. I'm using a Duetto 4.

It does overrun to about 33g sometimes, I don't notice much difference to be honest. My tastebuds are a bit dodgy at the moment... but that's another story.


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Define 'awful'?


I really had to think about this, but can't give you an answer. I'm knowledgable about espresso etc and it's not sour or bitter which as you know are signs of issue in the shot. It's just unpleasant.

When I fail a shot and add water to it anyway because I'm running short on time,I can tell. It will taste either sour or bitter.


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Try some other beans italian job is a cafe type blend more suited to milk, lots of great roasters out there that you can get a great single origin from


 I will have to stick to 1kg bags and unfortunately, Rave are the only consistent company I have found in this price range. I would love to try out Hasbean etc, but I make a lot of coffee so would be a very expensive thing to do. Maybe at Christmas...


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

RagingMammoth said:


> I for one, do not enjoy drinking espresso on it's own. My shots are fine, tastes beautiful black as an americano but as a espresso? Nope.
> 
> I feel as if I am alone on this entirely. Most people here seem to love drinking espresso, but it just tastes unpleasant to me. Am I doing something wrong?


im with you, i just dont enjoy espresso on its own!!! I can drink it if i sugar it heavily... But on the whole prefer diluted espresso


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Sorry if this sounds like I'm questioning your coffee making abilities. But Have you tried an espresso from a good independent cafe?

You sound like you know your stuff but I just thought it might rule it out. There's lots of thing I still can't do with coffee (perfecting microfoam being one of them).

I love straight espressos although I can understand it might not be for everyone as it can be quite intense.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

RagingMammoth said:


> I will have to stick to 1kg bags and unfortunately, Rave are the only consistent company I have found in this price range. I would love to try out Hasbean etc, but I make a lot of coffee so would be a very expensive thing to do. Maybe at Christmas...


Perhaps make less of coffee and try other stuff

Perhaps it's worth it

Not all coffee can be or should be £4 ....

Even rave cant do single origins at that price

There is the compromise to be had if you wanna try other roasters and beans


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

RagingMammoth said:


> I really had to think about this, but can't give you an answer. I'm knowledgable about espresso etc and it's not sour or bitter which as you know are signs of issue in the shot. It's just unpleasant.
> 
> When I fail a shot and add water to it anyway because I'm running short on time,I can tell. It will taste either sour or bitter.


Is it the intensity then that you don't find agreeable? Have you tried grinding coarser and aiming for a shot closer to the concentration you like?


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Sorry if this sounds like I'm questioning your coffee making abilities. But Have you tried an espresso from a good independent cafe?
> 
> You sound like you know your stuff but I just thought it might rule it out. There's lots of thing I still can't do with coffee (perfecting microfoam being one of them).
> 
> I love straight espressos although I can understand it might not be for everyone as it can be quite intense.


Unfortunately there is only one shop that does good coffee near me, and there stuff is seriously dark. I can't imagine it'll be much different to my shot. I'll try it next time I go though.


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## Taylor The Latte Boy (Dec 9, 2013)

I'm working in a new coffee shop and their espresso tastes awesome. It tastes fruity and syrupy . Not bitter at all. Having said that, we also weigh and time every single shot we make to keep all the variables tightly bound as not to upset the flavour. We also use a medium roast bean.


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## spune (Oct 3, 2011)

^Where abouts?


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## Taylor The Latte Boy (Dec 9, 2013)

Fig + Sparrow, Northern Quarter, Manchester.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I hate straight vodka. It's OK if you water it down or have it with coke though.

I've only tried Glenn's Vodka.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> I hate straight vodka. It's OK if you water it down or have it with coke though.
> 
> I've only tried Glenn's Vodka.


Is that with or without the Buckie chaser?


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

I think this has to be looked at another angle also: As trying to become a good "home barista" how can you make nice espresso based drinks, when you do not know the "espresso taste" very well and what is good/wrong about it and you have not experiment with it some time (6m-1y) to really get to know all the details? I think it is essential to do this before you start doing espresso based drinks and I also think during this practice you will get some very good espresso shots and you might change your attitude towards espresso - even if you don't change attitude because you need water or milk in your espresso, you will still know what very good espresso tastes like and also the different between various espresso beans and what they can bring to the cup.

P.S. This post is not specific towards any of the posters in this thread just a general opinion regarding straight espresso


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> It's amazing how bad a shot can taste as straight up espresso but when you put it in water for a americano it can actually taste great.


I agree fully but also if the espresso is not a bad shot then the Americano will definitely taste much better.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

When I'm dialling in I will drink espresso as its most obvious when you hit the 'sweet spot', I have recently pulled a couple of shots where I'm actually taken aback by how nice the espresso is... but its still too much for my tastebuds in anything more than a sip. At the very least it gets made into a macchiato.

Hopefully when I get older and my tastebuds have taken a turn for the worse I'll be able to appreciate all the fine flavours of espresso without wincing at the intensity.


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

charris said:


> I think this has to be looked at another angle also: As trying to become a good "home barista" how can you make nice espresso based drinks, when you do not know the "espresso taste" very well and what is good/wrong about it and you have not experiment with it some time (6m-1y) to really get to know all the details? I think it is essential to do this before you start doing espresso based drinks and I also think during this practice you will get some very good espresso shots and you might change your attitude towards espresso - even if you don't change attitude because you need water or milk in your espresso, you will still know what very good espresso tastes like and also the different between various espresso beans and what they can bring to the cup.
> 
> P.S. This post is not specific towards any of the posters in this thread just a general opinion regarding straight espresso


Makes a lot of sense to me. I just retried my Raves IJ and it tasted well... like an ash tray. Probably the darkness of the bean instead of poor extraction etc.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Have you been to a good coffee house and tried an espresso?

I thought i didn't like it on its own, but had one at a coffee house and found it ok, wouldn't drink it every day but was a lot better than my efforts at home.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

RagingMammoth said:


> Makes a lot of sense to me. I just retried my Raves IJ and it tasted well... like an ash tray. Probably the darkness of the bean instead of poor extraction etc.


That may well be something in the roast level or the extraction or the brew ratio or the part robusta you don't enjoy , or all of them .

Milk sweetens it as you know . Water dilutes it

Again get something else. Frere are some amazing SO there for £5 a bag , just try


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> That may well be something in the roast level or the extraction or the brew ratio or the part robusta you don't enjoy , or all of them .
> 
> Milk sweetens it as you know . Water dilutes it
> 
> Again get something else. Frere are some amazing SO there for £5 a bag , just try


Someone on here suggested I should try a 35g extraction to sweeten it up. Tasted a lot worse.

I really love 28g in 24-28 seconds as an Americano, it's wonderful. I love that dark, strong taste. Just unpleasant as an espresso.

Also, Frere?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

RagingMammoth said:


> Someone on here suggested I should try a 35g extraction to sweeten it up. Tasted a lot worse.
> 
> I really love 28g in 24-28 seconds as an Americano, it's wonderful. I love that dark, strong taste. Just unpleasant as an espresso.
> 
> Also, Frere?


You've lost me there....you love a 28g shot, but it's unpleasant? As Gary said earlier, "define awful/worse"?

If you are going to pull longer shots to get less concentrated flavour, you also need to loosen off the grind to retain a similar extraction yield & flavour balance. 35g is not the limit in how long you can go...I don't know what it would be for your set up, but try aiming for the concentration you like & dial in the grind to suit.

You start with a 17g dose, into 28g...now how much water (in grams) do you typically add to that?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sorry should have been " there "

Perhaps Don't drink espresso then ?

I wouldn't stress over it , buy what you like at a price you are comfortable with and enjoy the drinks you are currently making.

People on here that do drink espresso and enjoy it on the whole drink SO , up to you if you feel they are worth the extra money to buy ...


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Sorry should have been " there "
> 
> Perhaps Don't drink espresso then ?
> 
> ...


I don't intend to anymore, I was just wondering if I was alone in liking black coffee just not espresso. I will definitely give one of Rave's single origins a shot on my next order, to see if I change my mind.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hope you enjoy . There are some tasty looking SO on the rave site ,sure you'll find one you like.

Perhaps go for something fruity or a medium ish roast , as a change to the IJ


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

MWJB said:


> You've lost me there....you love a 28g shot, but it's unpleasant? As Gary said earlier, "define awful/worse"?
> 
> If you are going to pull longer shots to get less concentrated flavour, you also need to loosen off the grind to retain a similar extraction yield & flavour balance. 35g is not the limit in how long you can go...I don't know what it would be for your set up, but try aiming for the concentration you like & dial in the grind to suit.
> 
> You start with a 17g dose, into 28g...now how much water (in grams) do you typically add to that?


I dose 17g, 28g out in 24 or so seconds.

It's unpleasant as an espresso, but amazing as a black Americano. I don't weigh how much water I add, but it isn't that much. At a guess, 6oz.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

It does just sound like you aren't a fan of the intensity, a lot of people like lemonade, but wouldn't drink lemon juice straight... even with a bit of sugar.

If you are finding you really enjoy the flavour with a small amount of water, that would suggest to me that your shot is pretty good to start with.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Maybe it's a little like comparing cask strength single malts with the typical abv bottled ones, I love a neat cask strength whisky to sit and sip with nothing in it bar one of those whisky rocks to chill it a little, whereas for some people whisky at that strength is simply too intense for some people and they can only drink it adulterated in some way. I'm not a fan of a lot of blends as espresso but like SO beans as espresso.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Perhaps robusta doesn't taste nice


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

D_Evans said:


> It does just sound like you aren't a fan of the intensity, a lot of people like lemonade, but wouldn't drink lemon juice straight... even with a bit of sugar.
> 
> If you are finding you really enjoy the flavour with a small amount of water, that would suggest to me that your shot is pretty good to start with.


I think this is probably the cause.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Perhaps robusta doesn't taste nice


Even the best robustas taste rank and IJ contains robusta?

Why doesnt the OP purchase some 100% arabica


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Even the best robustas taste rank and IJ contains robusta?
> 
> Why doesnt the OP purchase some 100% arabica


I'm going to give this a shot next order.


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

I thought I'd bump this thread with a question, instead of opening a new one.

What single origin from Rave do you lot recommend?


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## frandavi99 (Jun 8, 2014)

I've only tried one Rave coffee, it was the Ethiopia Yirgacheffe natural Adado from their cafe and it was blueberry heaven. Lovely.

Not a balanced review but a good place to start.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I liked the Rwandan red bourbon. Chocolate orange!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

In fairness I like loads of their stuff but I think the Rwandan is probably the most straight forward.


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> In fairness I like loads of their stuff but I think the Rwandan is probably the most straight forward.


Rwandan it shall be!


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

I ordered some columbian suarez in the end. Still a bit fresh, and the sourness echoes that but it is fairly pleasant. Took me far too long to dial it in though.


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## majnu (Jan 31, 2014)

i'd drink espresso if mine didn't taste sour, even though I have latte I feel that I am missing out extracting the best possible flavour just because my espresso leaves me with a terrible squint. Once my PID's SSR arrives hopefully it will sort out any issue as I am dosing and tamping right. (18g to 30g output within 25-30 seconds)


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