# Pro 800 and Niche



## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Upgraded the DTP after a trip to pick this up today. Folkstone, via Worcester and now safely set up in North Wales. Thanks to @PPapa for the heads up when it came up for sale.

Safe to say it's huge! About three times the size of the DTP. It also needed a thorough clean. I've spent all afternoon trying (and failing) to get to grips with the beast but it's been fun learning along the way.

Looking forward to mastering it.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Look at that set-up!! Amazing .. and worlds apart from the DTP


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Woah, congratulations! I remember two of us looking for a lever machine at the same time - welcome to the club! Looking forward to see how you are getting on with it.

P.S. You need to update your signature.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> Look at that set-up!! Amazing .. and worlds apart from the DTP


It is indeed. The steaming power is insane!


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

PPapa said:


> Woah, congratulations! I remember two of us looking for a lever machine at the same time - welcome to the club! Looking forward to see how you are getting on with it.
> 
> P.S. You need to update your signature.


Thanks Paul.

Any tips? Lol.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Tell us what you want to know! A few general pointers for a lever

takes a finer grind

pre infusion......lever down for 10 seconds (as a reference/starting point), when you raise the lever do not start counting the time for your shot until the flow actually starts as opposed to when the first drops appear

do not collect all of the shot.....once you have your desired output, pull the glass away


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Tell us what you want to know! A few general pointers for a lever
> 
> takes a finer grind
> 
> ...


Really struggled to get that Eithiopian Ato dialled earlier. Tasted under extracted and poor crema. Went finer than I've ever been before on the niche but not much better - maybe up the the dose?

The pressure from the lever seems to come on quick so do you think it would be sensible to look at the seals? The previous owner had only made around 100 shots on it.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Might be the bean. At the present grind how long are you keeping the lever down, how long then till the shot starts and

How long does it take? A video would be good


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Might be the bean. At the present grind how long are you keeping the lever down, how long then till the shot starts and
> 
> How long does it take? A video would be good


I was preinfusing for about 15sec, shot takes about 30sec but looks watery and "thin" I'll get a video now.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Congratulations









15s seems quite a long pi . . . And as dfk says, beans vary. Early days yet though


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

@dfk41 @MildredM and any other lever heads.

This is 17g in, about 36g out in 30s. 6s pre infusion.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

ATZ said:


> @dfk41 @MildredM and any other lever heads.
> 
> This is 17g in, about 36g out in 30s. 6s pre infusion.


Don't knock the side of the PF. You dislodge the puck and you'll dent the tamper and/or the lugs of the PF.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Don't knock the side of the PF. You dislodge the puck and you'll dent the tamper and/or the lugs of the PF.


Just a little habit I'd got into. Will stop doing it hence forth!


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

ATZ said:


> @dfk41 @MildredM and any other lever heads.
> 
> This is 17g in, about 36g out in 30s. 6s pre infusion.


 @joey24dirt your tamper features too!


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Don't knock the side of the PF. You dislodge the puck and you'll dent the tamper and/or the lugs of the PF.


I was just about to say this


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

ATZ said:


> @joey24dirt your tamper features too!


Yes it does haha. Thank you, really pleased you like it


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> Yes it does haha. Thank you, really pleased you like it


It's fantastic mate. Nice snug fit in the Profitec baskets too.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

It's hard to say. I'd go for a bit longer shot personally, teeny bit finer grind. But you're going to have to keep making little adjustments until you get a tasty cup. One adjustment at a time









It could just be a bean that doesn't suit you/is difficult to get something nice from too.

And no more tapping!! How hard would you say you are tamping?


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

MildredM said:


> It's hard to say. I'd go for a bit longer shot personally, teeny bit finer grind. But you're going to have to keep making little adjustments until you get a tasty cup. One adjustment at a time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It just tastes a bit bitter, which is weird as I'd say it looks under extracted.

Tamp wise it's until I can't feel any more compression. It's not hard or light, so middling, lol.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ATZ said:


> @dfk41 @MildredM and any other lever heads.
> 
> This is 17g in, about 36g out in 30s. 6s pre infusion.


It is a bit since I used a lever but, for me......light beans are little bastards in general......I thought you held the lever for 6 seconds, I would go 10 but the is with a darker bean......I would not expect the pour to start almost immediately as yours did, which suggests a slightly finer grind to me.....but I think a lot of it is the bean.....


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> It is a bit since I used a lever but, for me......light beans are little bastards in general......I thought you held the lever for 6 seconds, I would go 10 but the is with a darker bean......I would not expect the pour to start almost immediately as yours did, which suggests a slightly finer grind to me.....but I think a lot of it is the bean.....


Hmm, I did think that. It's quite a light roast but I was expecting good things being a natural. Not getting any of that booze or funk, just tabbaco/bitterness.

I'll go finer and longer PI.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

yep little tighter grinder and a slightly harder tamp. And you should be good. NO TAMPER KNOCKING!


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Jony said:


> yep little tighter grinder and a slightly harder tamp. And you should be good. NO TAMPER KNOCKING!


Thanks. I picked up the knocking tip from some youtube vids, just goes to show be careful where you get your information from!


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

ATZ said:


> Thanks Paul.
> 
> Any tips? Lol.


Look at the lever and smile







.

Forget what timings you had with Niche/DTP. I would go few notches finer and it could result in few seconds slower pour whereas with DTP it was about 5s per notch.



ATZ said:


> @dfk41 @MildredM and any other lever heads.
> 
> This is 17g in, about 36g out in 30s. 6s pre infusion.


What size is your basket? This might screw up the timings.

What I did with Niche\LR was:


18g in 18g VST

8s pre-infusion

Aim for 36g in 34~36s *including pre-infusion*


I would also distribute once the grounds are in the basket rather than in the cup. I used to shake the Niche cup instead. Sometimes I would cover the top with the palm if I am half awake and don't trust myself with not spilling the grounds.


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

I've got lever envy.


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## Andyz (Oct 28, 2018)

Very nice indeed, all good advise here. Thank you


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

So as an update, I've been getting best results with a long PI of about 30-45s on all roasts.

@dfk41 was right about the Ato, it just seems like it's a difficult bean full stop as I've managed to dial my decaff and a dark roast in with good success too.

One thing that this process has show up is that my puck prep wasn't great and needed a little work.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Just out of curiosity, what's the maximum volume you can get out of the shot?

With 1:3 ratio on L-R and EK43s using 18g basket, I am almost squeezing all the water out!


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

PPapa said:


> Just out of curiosity, what's the maximum volume you can get out of the shot?
> 
> With 1:3 ratio on L-R and EK43s using 18g basket, I am almost squeezing all the water out!


With holding the lever at half cock to pre wet you can get a 40g+ shot. That said most of mine are 1:2 So 18g in for 36g out. Get a bit of waste but not loads.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Timing is in the ball park of where I would pull a shot. Agree with the comments around tapping the pf.

And how do you get away with preparing the puck directly onto the work top ? If I did that here it would be immediate castration with a rusty axe.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

working dog said:


> ... how do you get away with preparing the puck directly onto the work top ? If I did that here it would be immediate castration with a rusty axe.


Haha! Yes same here!

Your colourful phrase made me start to wonder about the "half cock" in the post above yours! 

___

Eat, drink and be merry


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## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

Just one extra comment, clean the lugs and rim of basket very well before locking portafilter in to remove all loose grounds. Make sure the group seal is equally clean. An espazzola style group cleaner does an excellent job. That's most likely the reason you got that water sneeze when lever was at full pressure. Also lock portafilter in a bit more gently to prevent puck fracturing.

Your setup looks fantastic! Enjoy it and keep sharing your progress!


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

hotmetal said:


> Haha! Yes same here!
> 
> Your colourful phrase made me start to wonder about the "half cock" in the post above yours!
> 
> ...


Only if she has bad aim. Any worse aim and it would be eat, drink and be Mary


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Little Update:

I fault diagnosed some shots by accident. Seems I've been dosing too high (18g) for the stock double basket and it's touching the shower screen breaking to puck pre shot.

Looks like I need to either use the triple or maybe invest in the cafelat kit that'll give me some more headspace and better seals.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Would it be worthwhile obtaining a VST 18g?


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Would it be worthwhile obtaining a VST 18g?


 @MediumRoastSteam what does a VST give you that a stock basket doesn't?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Apart from difference in flavour, it will also give you repeatability.

If a basket is for 18g, then they are supposed to take 18g (+\- 1g).

It may be that they have greater headspace too, as they have straight walls.

I don't remember what the standard Profitec basket looks like as mine remained in the box and were never used.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Reiss suggests using 20g IMS basket and overfill it slightly if you don't have a high yield grinder.

I am on 18g VST and it wasn't too bad with Niche (easy good looking pours), but it's a bit more tricky with an ek.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

I think I'll get an 18g VST - the double Profitec basket is tapered at the bottom of the basket and has a little indent at the top on the sidewall as well.

@PPapa and @MediumRoastSteam any recommendations of where to pick one up?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Bella Barista sells them, and so does HasBean and coffee hit (I think).


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

ATZ said:


> I think I'll get an 18g VST - the double Profitec basket is tapered at the bottom of the basket and has a little indent at the top on the sidewall as well.
> 
> @PPapa and @MediumRoastSteam any recommendations of where to pick one up?


I bought mine off BellaBarista, but Foundry, Square Mile and others stock them as well. It's not a difficult basket to get hold of.

I am curious how you're going to get on with the Cafelat seals. I am using the same IMS 200um screen, just with a Londinium logo rather than Cafelat.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

PPapa said:


> I bought mine off BellaBarista, but Foundry, Square Mile and others stock them as well. It's not a difficult basket to get hold of.
> 
> I am curious how you're going to get on with the Cafelat seals. I am using the same IMS 200um screen, just with a Londinium logo rather than Cafelat.


What have you noticed with the IMS screen Paul? If anything?


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

ATZ said:


> What have you noticed with the IMS screen Paul? If anything?


I had the IMS 35um fitted straight away, so sorry, can't compare!

I have been using 20g IMS instead of 18g VST for last couple of days, but I will be moving back to the VST. The pours are easier to manage for EK (wasn't an issue with Niche at all), but I found the taste is totally different as well. Which is weird since I couldn't tell the difference between baskets with Niche.

Edit: talking rubbish, I have the 35um, not 200um.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Sorry, I got confused the 35um and 200um screens. I am using 35um one.

https://londiniumespresso.com/store/ims-35um-shower-screen


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

PPapa said:


> Sorry, I got confused the 35um and 200um screens. I am using 35um one.
> 
> https://londiniumespresso.com/store/ims-35um-shower-screen


I wouldn't want to spend twice, so given Reiss' comments on this screen might go for this and get the seals separate.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

So I've contradicted myself here and I have a Cafelat seals and screen on order. I'll update any findings.

18g ridgeless VST basket also incoming with my Hasbean order too. They were most economical at £22, which is £8-12 pound cheaper than some other suppliers and made sense to bundle it in with a coffee order.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Ok, so got the 18g VST tonight with my coffee order. Now, I'm not sure if it's the change of coffee too but it's totally screwed my results!

Coffee is now "rushing" through the puck at a 16g dose and I've gone finer than I ever have before. Does this suggest I need a bigger dose? Any thoughts @PPapa ?

@MildredM this was with the Hasbean Funky Pacamara you recommended, how did you find it behaved? Weirdly even with the water rushing through the coffee tasted ok.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Have you tried putting 18g in?


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

PPapa said:


> Have you tried putting 18g in?


Not yet as that was too much for the stock basket.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ATZ said:


> Not yet as that was too much for the stock basket.


VST baskets are rated +/- 1g from their stated dose so 16g in an 18g basket will be too low. They also from experience, tend to require a finer grind than other baskets I've used (except for my LM Strada single which is made by VST so behaves broadly the same).


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Grind finer - I am pretty sure I had to









Get 18g in, finer, and weigh/time/taste from there would be my advice.


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## mission701 (Oct 15, 2018)

ATZ said:


> Ok, so got the 18g VST tonight with my coffee order. Now, I'm not sure if it's the change of coffee too but it's totally screwed my results! Coffee is now "rushing" through the puck


I've had an absolutely identical thing happen when I upgraded from stock to IMS today. As others have said, dose to the basket spec and grind finer.


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

Your pour looks great so your technique is fine, but the beans look truly dreadful. They look like they needed another 2-3 minutes in the roaster, no wonder the result was bitter.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

NickR said:


> Your pour looks great so your technique is fine, but the beans look truly dreadful. They look like they needed another 2-3 minutes in the roaster, no wonder the result was bitter.


They were Eithiopian and omniroasted, not cheap either!


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

Just catching up with a few posts and notice I'm amongst the big boy's here and 'M'of course and many members with experience of lever machines, its very hard to judge but looking at the prep video, your tamp seemed to be quite light ?.

Jon.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

xpresso said:


> Just catching up with a few posts and notice I'm amongst the big boy's here and 'M'of course and many members with experience of lever machines, its very hard to judge but looking at the prep video, your tamp seemed to be quite light ?.
> 
> Jon.


Well there's the contradiction, most people with levers recommend a fine grind and a light tamp...


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

ATZ said:


> Well there's the contradiction, most people with levers recommend a fine grind and a light tamp...


Hence my disclaimer, be good to rule it out, use a scale under the PF ?.

Jon.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

xpresso said:


> Hence my disclaimer, be good to rule it out, use a scale under the PF ?.
> 
> Jon.


You don't need to. Either the grounds are compressed or not, doesn't matter how much pressure you put on you can feel when they are or not.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)




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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

ATZ said:


> You don't need to. Either the grounds are compressed or not, doesn't matter how much pressure you put on you can feel when they are or not.


And yet I in the short time on my learning curve, have picked up that to light a tamp allows the water to pass through the grounds to quickly lessening extraction, watery (Diluted) result and less crema. Aside from an uneven tamp.

Jon.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

xpresso said:


> And yet I in the short time on my learning curve, have picked up that to light a tamp allows the water to pass through the grounds to quickly lessening extraction, watery (Diluted) result and less crema. Aside from an uneven tamp.
> 
> Jon.


If you grind too fine and tamp too hard you end up with a puck where water cannot saturate the grounds. The water just hits it and aims for path of least resistance - air around the grounds.

So aiming for an arbitrary tamp pressure kind of misses the point.

Because once the grounds are compressed no matter how hard you push they won't compress further. Try it yourself, you can feel when they become compressed. @Rakesh posted a good link on this a while ago.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Hmmm just looking at the vid again in post 11 and it does look like a very light tamp . . . I'm a light tamper - 10kg pressure. Vids can be deceiving mind


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Reiss said:


> if you grind fine enough and tamp hard enough you will create what i like to call a 'coffee brick' which will be impermeable at boiler pressure
> 
> this means that when you release the lever the 9 bar pressure of the spring on the piston causes the water to disappear into the still dry puck, and you observe a high grab of the lever


This has definitely happened during my first few weeks with the machine. You can tell when it does as the lever grabs higher.

What's throwing me here is the VST. I'd actually got to grips with the stock basket but the VST is causing me no end of troubles even having upped to 18g


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

ATZ said:


> If you grind too fine and tamp too hard you end up with a puck where water cannot saturate the grounds. The water just hits it and aims for path of least resistance - air around the grounds.
> 
> So aiming for an arbitrary tamp pressure kind of misses the point.
> 
> Because once the grounds are compressed no matter how hard you push they won't compress further. Try it yourself, you can feel when they become compressed. @Rakesh posted a good link on this a while ago.


Yes, read quite a lot and like they say, you never stop learning, ne'er mind only trying to help.

Jon.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Sorry to be pedantic but are you suggesting that all tamps (ie the process of tamping, compressing the grinds) are the same?


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

MildredM said:


> Sorry to be pedantic but are you suggesting that all tamps (ie the process of tamping, compressing the grinds) are the same?


No. I'm saying that once the grounds are compressed no matter how hard you press they won't compress more.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

xpresso said:


> Yes, read quite a lot and like they say, you never stop learning, ne'er mind only trying to help.
> 
> Jon.


Jon I appreciate all advice and input. I just don't think tamping is the issue here.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

ATZ said:


> No. I'm saying that once the grounds are compressed no matter how hard you press they won't compress more.


What kind of pressure would you say you're using?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The double you were using is probably a standard 14g one. With dose you were using there is a fair chance that further "tamping" is going on when the grinds are expanding. Over dosing a bit is an easy habit to get into as likely to give nicer pours etc. Going on commercial baskets I have used VST's tolerance of +/-1g isn't unreasonable but as a for instance one bean I use would be likely to always need the + 1g.

I suspect you need to forget light tamping for a while and strain a little when you tamp - that's more likely to be consistent than trying to maintains some set pressure. An 18g 58mm basket should be easy to handle so problems are likely to be purely down to the user.

John

-


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

MildredM said:


> What kind of pressure would you say you're using?


It's not light or just to level the bed but it's not tamping the living daylights out the bean either. I tamp until I feel they are compressed, so a medium tamp?


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## Chap-a-chino (Mar 31, 2017)

ATZ said:


> No. I'm saying that once the grounds are compressed no matter how hard you press they won't compress more.


Sorry to disagree, but yes they will. Unless you are using an industrial ram and compressing until fusion is achieved, increasing the pressure increases the compression. If you tamp 15g and 18g baskets with the same pressure the compression will differ.

Your video suggests you are 'firming' the grounds rather than exerting any real pressure. To better understand what pressure you're exerting, try tamping on a set of bathroom scales. Tamping is an underrated and oft misunderstood process.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

You probably know this but a good way to check is to prepare everything then place the p/f on some bathroom scales on the worktop you tamp on (replicating the conditions of everything) then tamp and see what kind of pressure is being applied.

If your prep isn't perfect then a light tamp may not exactly compress everything in a perfectly level way.

It's hard to type the words for exactly what I mean but I think you get the gist.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Chap-a-chino said:


> Sorry to disagree, but yes they will. Unless you are using an industrial ram and compressing until fusion is achieved, increasing the pressure increases the compression. If you tamp 15g and 18g baskets with the same pressure the compression will differ.
> 
> Your video suggests you are 'firming' the grounds rather than exerting any real pressure. To better understand what pressure you're exerting, try tamping on a set of bathroom scales. Tamping is an underrated and oft misunderstood process.


I don't agree and my experience reflects this article:



> Tamping for espresso is riddled with an incredible amount of folk-knowledge. When I was taught espresso in 2008, I was told to practice tamping on bathroom scales (I admit I don't remember what the prescribed weight was). Today I'd like to shed some light on tamping pressure and how easy it is to get it right.
> 
> tl:dr - Tamping pressure matters. If you press until the tamper stops moving down, and keep it level, you're golden


https://baristahustle.com/blog/how-hard-should-you-tamp/


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Just whatever you do, be consistent.

What issues are you getting with the VST 18g? How do the shots taste?


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

PPapa said:


> Just whatever you do, be consistent.
> 
> What issues are you getting with the VST 18g? How do the shots taste?


Just water "rushing through" even though I've upped the dose and tightened to finer than I've ever been previously.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

ATZ said:


> Just water "rushing through" even though I've upped the dose and tightened to finer than I've ever been previously.


A VST basket will need a finer grind. It's fine to go finer than ever before!


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

When you knock your puck out, is it overly wet, dry'ish and breaks clean ?.

Have you the benefit of borrowing a pre loaded tamper, if only to gain consistency in one of the many actions and prep in getting to achieve an acceptable brew. (I'm not suggesting you always use it, just until you get close).

Jon.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

PPapa said:


> A VST basket will need a finer grind. It's fine to go finer than ever before!


Ok so taking the dose up to 19g is giving acceptable-ish pours now. If I go too fine I get under extraction as the the Pro 800 infuses at boiler pressure (1.1bar) rather than the 3.5bar of the L-R.

Like you said I've had to go finer but there is a point where too much is just as much an issue.


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