# Frustrated - only me?



## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

Hi all, I'm wondering how long it took you to get a good espresso technique working? I am a novice, and have been adhering to the measure, weight and attempting tamp pressure consistency. I'm generally not very impressed however with taste of espresso and grinder fiddling.

This morning I switched beans (recommended Rave coffee blend). Made an espresso - sour!

Tightened the grind a little - . Less tamp pressure -sour

backed off the grind - more tamp pressure .. still not that nice

17g in PF. First extraction started between 7 and 10 secs in all cases. All getting 35g of espresso between 25 and 30 secs. So I assume I am in the magic triangle of weight and timing..

Am I being naive to assume the delicious chocolate tones of lovely espresso need to be this much work? I have been trying to be consistent and yet not lab spec consistent. I admit I just changed the beans and wonder if this new coffee could be the issue.. in all scenarios I get crema (less with the more open grind example above). None of them have tall crema however..

when I watch the baristas in a chain even costa (and I like their coffee more than most chains). The attention to detail is almost zero. Certainly the tamp.

I plan to book a Barista course and try and have someone teach me.. because right now, I am frustrated that I just want a cup of good coffee!! Rant over..

cheers..

Ps - on my Profitec Pro600 the PF puck never dries and always holds a vacuum as once I break the seal on the PF some water comes from the group head drain. Is this normal?


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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

Sorry to hear that, but it does take a lot of effort upfront to get to a point where you can replicate the results with relative ease.

Sour usually means low temperature and/or under extracted. What is your PID set at?

Have you tried increasing the yield? 1:2 is not a magic bullet, go all the way to 1:3

Finally, what water is in your machine?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

2 rules to follow especially for sour espresso and new users:

1. Warm up machine properly, it must be on *for at least* 30 minutes before a shot, ideally longer. I personally have my machines on a timer and they go on 1 hour before I make any coffee. The brew boiler only uses 70W so cost is negligble.

2. Make sure the brew temperature is hot enough, increase it by 1C, try again after 15 minutes (yes it can take that long for the group to stabilise). If still sour try another increase in temp.


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## KingoftheHeath (Nov 22, 2019)

Temperature is definitely what you need to check.

Do you have a naked portafilter? These are great tools to see if you are producing even flow. Things like channeling will affect flavour, but may not be noticeable on a standard pf. If you get one and notice inconsistenct flow then you can start incorporating things like WDT during the puck prep.

There is a lot to puck prep. No idea how they take so little care in chains, maybe because darker roasts are generally much more forgiving to weakness in technique.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

Hi all thank you .. my brew temp is 95 and steam temp is 131. With all the experiments and cleaning my PF that is more room temp than hot..


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

M5Sime said:


> Hi all, I'm wondering how long it took you to get a good espresso technique working? I am a novice, and have been adhering to the measure, weight and attempting tamp pressure consistency. I'm generally not very impressed however with taste of espresso and grinder fiddling.
> 
> This morning I switched beans (recommended Rave coffee blend). Made an espresso - sour!
> 
> ...


 1. Don't change tamp pressure. I go with about 10kg, maybe a little more, but I keep it consistent. Others like a light tamp. Change one variable at a time. What grinder are you using?

2. Make sure you aren't dosing too much, the coffee needs to expand. Check to make sure there isn't a shower screen imprint after locking PF in (before running the shot). You could be getting channelling, if you are using a naked PF you'll be able to see this. There is no magic triangle. Does the flow start slowly and very steadily increase, or does it start gushing after about 15-20g in the cup?

3. Assuming there are supposed to be chocolate notes...ignore crema.

4. And you can taste it...

5. Probably normal. If the puck is soaking wet you might be able to dose more.

Of course temperature could be an issue. Portafilter should be locked into the group while it is heating up too.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

M5Sime said:


> Hi all thank you .. my brew temp is 95 and steam temp is 131. With all the experiments and cleaning my PF that is more room temp than hot..


 No, the machine is telling you your brew temp is 95, I don't know what it really is. When I test and review machines I often have to change the PID settings (especially offset) to get the right temperature shown on the machine. It's rare that the manufacturers have the offset correct. I usually do 3 or 4 days of extensive temperature testing in the home environment not a lab one.

I have never reviewed or tested that particular machine, so it might be showing the right temp, it might not. ...

The comment about the PF is concerning...because I'm not sure what you are exactly doing as is the total lack of feedback on your warm up routine?

You should also do a video of your shot production right from grinding thru to finished shot....you never know people might notice something you have not.


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## Bagpu55 (Dec 23, 2019)

We at least it sounds your well on the way. I have literally just poured my first non chuckable espresso (having spent a months frustration rebuilding my machine). Only got my grinder yesterday so bought a bag of Aldi mellow mood beans as couldnt wait for a delivery, and tamped with the rubber lid off my aeropress (as am waiting for a tamper) into a glass jar on a non working set of scales (new ones in amazon basket). I did time to 30 seconds (as if that was going to make much difference with my setup) BUT just drank my best coffee in ages (including shops!!), even used my finger to get the last bits out, couldnt believe it. Cant say much about chocolate flavours either (its there apparently) but I enjoyed my drink immensely. Hopefully will only get better with practice too, might be a bit hard to replicate what I just did. Might just buy that kg blend bag from RAVE. Onwards and upwards!!!!


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> No, the machine is telling you your brew temp is 95, I don't know what it really is. When I test and review machines I often have to change the PID settings (especially offset) to get the right temperature shown on the machine. It's rare that the manufacturers have the offset correct. I usually do 3 or 4 days of extensive temperature testing in the home environment not a lab one.
> 
> I have never reviewed or tested that particular machine, so it might be showing the right temp, it might not. ...
> 
> ...


 Hi - very true of course.. I was going from the PID setting (which as nobody has shouted yet I assume is in the right ballpark). I would need to measure the true brew temp.

my warm up routine is turn it on with the PF attached for at least 30 mins. But, once have have made my first cup and need to make the second (and then around 4 more test shots) my PF is not hot because I'm rinsing it in the sink with warm water after banging the puck out. It never comes out clean or dry so I have to wash it for the second espresso. I could pull some water and heat it up some more.

agree re the video. I'll look at that. I had been grinding into a container as direct to PF was messy with some of my earlier tests..


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

Bagpu55 said:


> We at least it sounds your well on the way. I have literally just poured my first non chuckable espresso (having spent a months frustration rebuilding my machine). Only got my grinder yesterday so bought a bag of Aldi mellow mood beans as couldnt wait for a delivery, and tamped with the rubber lid off my aeropress (as am waiting for a tamper) into a glass jar on a non working set of scales (new ones in amazon basket). I did time to 30 seconds (as if that was going to make much difference with my setup) BUT just drank my best coffee in ages (including shops!!), even used my finger to get the last bits out, couldnt believe it. Cant say much about chocolate flavours either (its there apparently) but I enjoyed my drink immensely. Hopefully will only get better with practice too, might be a bit hard to replicate what I just did. Might just buy that kg blend bag from RAVE. Onwards and upwards!!!!


 Thank you! At least it sounds like it isn't just me. I am perhaps not the most patient person in the world. While I am very happy to work with scientific guidance I have no interest in variance in the future. I want to find a routine of one bean, one grind, on drink..


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

M5Sime said:


> my warm up routine is turn it on with the PF attached for at least 30 mins. But, once have have made my first cup and need to make the second (and then around 4 more test shots) my PF is not hot because I'm rinsing it in the sink with warm water after banging the puck out. It never comes out clean or dry so I have to wash it for the second espresso. I could pull some water and heat it up some more.


 With more information comes more advice.

1. try warming up for 45

2. Get a 1 inch paintbrush and brush the portafilter out between shots (after knocking the puck out of course). Only wash after the last in a series of shots.


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

ArisP said:


> Sorry to hear that, but it does take a lot of effort upfront to get to a point where you can replicate the results with relative ease.
> 
> Sour usually means low temperature and/or under extracted. What is your PID set at?
> 
> ...


 Hi thank you. I can try that for a future extraction. I'm using Tesco Mineral water


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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

M5Sime said:


> Hi thank you. I can try that for a future extraction. I'm using Tesco Mineral water


 No worries. Not to throw another variable in the mix, but consider trying a Volvic or something a bit more boiler friendly.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

If your grinder is new, it takes some time to break in the burrs. There can be sharp edges or other irregularities from manufacture process, that produce uneven grind, causing inconsistency in brewing espresso. At least I know I had these issues when I started with new Eureka Mignon and Rancilio Silvia 5 years ago. I didn't know about this then and it was driving me mad. It takes grinding of around 5 kilos to get over this. You can use some cheap crap supermarket beans to speed up the process.

Of course this is not going to help in case of inconsistency in other parts of the process, as mentioned above, such as beans weight, tamping pressure while keeping it level or proper heating up of the machine.

It took me perhaps half a year to produce good shots, and another half to produce them consistently. I took part in a barista training in that time and later, after I've got rid of that setup and got the Portaspresso device, I worked in a third vawe café and some other places as a barista. That helped a lot, especially with practising the milk frothing.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

M5Sime said:


> Hi thank you. I can try that for a future extraction. I'm using Tesco Mineral water


 Tesco don't really sell any own brand mineral water suitable for espresso. What exactly are you buying?

Are you drinking your espresso neat?


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

MWJB said:


> Tesco don't really sell any own brand mineral water suitable for espresso. What exactly are you buying?
> 
> Are you drinking your espresso neat?


 I thought there was a pretty good consensus that Ashbeck is a decent option?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

catpuccino said:


> I thought there was a pretty good consensus that Ashbeck is a decent option?


 Low bicarbonate, this can increase perceived acidity. (Though the sour brews are most likely down to too short brew ratio).

Tesco Everyday water is just typical hard UK water.


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Low bicarbonate, this can increase perceived acidity. (Though the sour brews are most likely down to too short brew ratio).
> 
> Tesco Everyday water is just typical hard UK water.


 It is Ashbeck. I bought it because of the same consensus on this site.. it tastes good cold and also from my machine for tea.


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

Link to an extraction this evening.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Looked generally OK, how was it?

P.S. Get a naked portafilter...


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)




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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> Looked generally OK, how was it?


 In milk seems OK. Even with these smaller cups I get a less strong tasting coffee that I like.. espresso was still a little sour. I need to focus on tamping I think as tried a firmer tamp this time and still didn't choke.


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

Stanic said:


> If your grinder is new, it takes some time to break in the burrs. There can be sharp edges or other irregularities from manufacture process, that produce uneven grind, causing inconsistency in brewing espresso. At least I know I had these issues when I started with new Eureka Mignon and Rancilio Silvia 5 years ago. I didn't know about this then and it was driving me mad. It takes grinding of around 5 kilos to get over this. You can use some cheap crap supermarket beans to speed up the process.
> 
> Of course this is not going to help in case of inconsistency in other parts of the process, as mentioned above, such as beans weight, tamping pressure while keeping it level or proper heating up of the machine.
> 
> It took me perhaps half a year to produce good shots, and another half to produce them consistently. I took part in a barista training in that time and later, after I've got rid of that setup and got the Portaspresso device, I worked in a third vawe café and some other places as a barista. That helped a lot, especially with practising the milk frothing.


 Thank you. My grinder is brand new and has had around 1.5 kg of beans through it.. good to know that it is going to take longer to perfect this.. this is perhaps my 20th extraction so still very early days..


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

Is this normal??

Unlocking the PF and getting some water from the group head..


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

M5Sime said:


> In milk seems OK. Even with these smaller cups I get a less strong tasting coffee that I like.. espresso was still a little sour. I need to focus on tamping I think as tried a firmer tamp this time and still didn't choke.


 Tamping force generally has very little impact on how the shot runs. A level even tamp is important, but the actual force you use is not considered an important variable.

As @DavecUK says, get a naked portafilter. They're dead cheap and an invaluable debugging tool.


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

catpuccino said:


> Tamping force generally has very little impact on how the shot runs. A level even tamp is important, but the actual force you use is not considered an important variable.
> 
> As @DavecUK says, get a naked portafilter. They're dead cheap and an invaluable debugging tool.


 I plan to.. what I do not know is which naked PF will fit my Profitec.. I also want to get a better basket and possibly a larger one


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

M5Sime said:


> Is this normal??
> 
> Unlocking the PF and getting some water from the group head..


 Yes


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

M5Sime said:


> Is this normal??
> 
> Unlocking the PF and getting some water from the group head..


 Yes...

I would not use Ashbeck, aside from anything bicarbonate is low, you don't get much calcium and magnesium, and it contains chlorides and sulphates. Should be around 50 for 40 alkalinity. You might like alkalinity a bit higher for espresso. This alone could be the reason for perceived sourness but it looks like you might have a bit of channelling too.

Volvic would be a better option. Very slightly scale forming and still has chloride and sulphates but with more magnesium and bicarbonates.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

M5Sime said:


> It is Ashbeck. I bought it because of the same consensus on this site.. it tastes good cold and also from my machine for tea.


 But it makes your coffee more acidic.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

M5Sime said:


> View attachment 35925


 The lower height area around the edge of the puck is suspicious.

Looks like you might be getting edge channelling from too fine a grind, Try going a little coarser.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

What coffee are you using


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

MWJB said:


> The lower height area around the edge of the puck is suspicious.
> 
> Looks like you might be getting edge channelling from too fine a grind, Try going a little coarser.


 I believe this is the imprint of the shower screen as it is often touching the puck when wet (not when dry). I'm going for a deeper basket in the future to get 18+ g in


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> What coffee are you using


 Rave coffee signature blend today.. I Bought two kg so need to make it work ?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I'm not familiar with that blend, what's it comprised of.. Please don't say coffee or Arabica etc.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Maybe drop to 16 or 16.5g.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I'm not familiar with that blend, what's it comprised of.. Please don't say coffee or Arabica etc.


 Says, "Caramel, almond, chocolate" on their site, doesn't sound like a particularly bright coffee.


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> I'm not familiar with that blend, what's it comprised of.. Please don't say coffee or Arabica etc.


 I wasn't sure either .. it was recommend on this site as a great beginners espresso.

https://ravecoffee.co.uk/collections/coffee-bean-blends/products/signature-blend?variant=3149907329050


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Says, "Caramel, almond, chocolate" on their site, doesn't sound like a particularly bright coffee.


 Happily take suggestions. I like bold strong espresso as I almost always drink milk based drinks

I bought it to learn the craft. I am looking to learn with a coffee that means I can produce consistent results and good flavour.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Try some coffee from other roasters, get some single origins, Brazilian, Costa Rica, Rawandan or Java etc..

If u have a Brazilian u can always blend it yourself with any of the others 50/50.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

M5Sime said:


> Happily take suggestions. I like bold strong espresso as I almost always drink milk based drinks
> 
> I bought it to learn the craft. I am looking to learn with a coffee that means I can produce consistent results and good flavour.


 Espresso strength is something you decide with ratio & grind, boldness/intensity is more down to origin/roast/process.

It would be good if you could tell us what espresso you have enjoyed in the past? "Bold" could mean an intense, bitter, burnt rubber Robusta, or a very blueberry tasting Ethiopian...it doesn't have a specific meaning.

Your results will be consistent with any coffee, if your inputs are consistent. This only means they could consistently not be to your liking, or that they are. Again, the flavours you enjoy from coffee are more relevant.

Don't worry so much about showing us videos & photos, focus more on the grind setting, weight in PF, shot time & output...do this shot by shot so we can see a methodical process.


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## KingoftheHeath (Nov 22, 2019)

Try Coffee Compass. Brighton Lanes, Malabar Hit, Sweet Bourbon, Java Jampit and Gusto Gold should hit your taste preference. Well, they certainly shouldn't be sour or even acidic.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

M5Sime said:


> Link to an extraction this evening.


 Could just be the video, not very clear, but it looks like there's a lot of channeling happening. Notice when you zoom in to the left side of the portafilter that the color goes blonde very fast, and also you can see the flow pulsing heavily.

As others have suggested, get a naked portafilter, only way to tell if your prep is correct.


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## Johey (Oct 12, 2019)

Hi @M5Sime,

don't worry too much. I am also quite new to all this Espresso stuff (bought my Lelit Bianca end of last year). I read a lot in this forum, watched plenty of YouTube videos and was in theory the best barista.

But it took weeks until I got some ok tasting espresso. And still I am lacking the consistency.

My biggest lessons learned: I tried many different beans from various - in this forum well known roasters - but I accept that I simply don't like all beans. My first real break through came with the „Development House Espresso Blend" from craft house coffee. I get consistent great tasting shots. Whereas I never got a tasting shot from e.g. the Columbia El Muro.

If you read through this forum you might get the impression that you always get a great shot from any „great beans" - if not, then it's either the machine or more likely your skills.

I compare it with craft beer: just because it's a „craft beer" from a hipster micro brewery (2.50 a bottle) it's not necessarily your taste.

I wish there were more statements from members here in the forum that sometimes someone simply doesn't like the espresso out of a certain bean...

So don't worry, you will find some beans with which you make great tasting espresso...


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

Johey said:


> Hi @M5Sime,
> 
> don't worry too much. I am also quite new to all this Espresso stuff (bought my Lelit Bianca end of last year). I read a lot in this forum, watched plenty of YouTube videos and was in theory the best barista.
> 
> ...


 Thank you! This really helps. The latest beans might be a good deal of the issue. I shall persevere ?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Johey said:


> I compare it with craft beer: just because it's a „craft beer" from a hipster micro brewery (2.50 a bottle) it's not necessarily your taste.
> 
> I wish there were more statements from members here in the forum that sometimes someone simply doesn't like the espresso out of a certain bean...
> 
> So don't worry, you will find some beans with which you make great tasting espresso...


 Well sure. The thing is people usual complain of sour or bitter shots, or both and top it off by saying they can't pick out any of the flavour notes. Some beans are harder to get good shots out of than others, and I'd never recommend a blend for a beginner just because I personally find them much harder to use than single origins. The development espresso blend was pretty easy to work with in the sense it was well developed, so very forgiving, and to get the best out of it you probably had to stop it short, so if you were following 25-30 seconds for 1:2 then you'd probably get a good shot or close to it. Not all blends are so easy and I personally don't like Rave's offerings. I had a problem with acidity long ago (not sourness) mainly because my shots were lacking sweetness, and though I'm fortunately past that now I still steer towards natural processed coffees, so will always recommend people try naturals if they're having problems with overly acidic shots despite seemingly perfect puck prep, pours etc.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> The lower height area around the edge of the puck is suspicious.
> 
> Looks like you might be getting edge channelling from too fine a grind, Try going a little coarser.


 Might be a feature of the shower screen, could be too much but the shower screen I use has a raised edge and some marking on the puck from it are normal with an ideal higher doses. Ie Enough space for the grinds to expand to a reasonable amount when the water goes in. That generally doesn't leave a totally flat used puck, just flattening around the edges from the shower screen feature.

Some how I suspect problems are down to the supposed ideal triangle. It differs according to the bean. And maybe dose. I feel some of the comments relate to finessing something that is essentially correct in the "triangle" area. Triangle isn't a term I would normally use - dose - time and ratio is clearer. Try several variations. Then worry about finessing it.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Might be a feature of the shower screen, could be too much but the shower screen I use has a raised edge and some marking on the puck from it are normal with an ideal higher doses. Ie Enough space for the grinds to expand to a reasonable amount when the water goes in. That generally doesn't leave a totally flat used puck, just flattening around the edges from the shower screen feature.
> 
> Some how I suspect problems are down to the supposed ideal triangle. It differs according to the bean. And maybe dose. I feel some of the comments relate to finessing something that is essentially correct in the "triangle" area. Triangle isn't a term I would normally use - dose - time and ratio is clearer. Try several variations. Then worry about finessing it.
> 
> ...


 The triangle is a square  - Grind setting, dose, output & taste evaluation.

Most expansion occurs when the 3 way solenoid drops pressure above the puck.

To me, anything that suggests the puck is expanding tight against the screen, or is impermeable enough to be sucked up against the screen to suffer a deep indentation (rather than a just a ghosting of the screen holes imprint), also suggests it's too dense & water might not be contacting all of the dose...then extraction drops & caramel, choc, almond coffee can start tasting generic, sour. (If the coffee was more rhubarb/cranberry/hibiscus/yellow plum/grapefruit, I'd expect some brightness, but not sharp, pucker inducing tartness).


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

M5Sime said:


> Hi all thank you .. my brew temp is 95 and steam temp is 131. With all the experiments and cleaning my PF that is more room temp than hot..


 Rather than washing the portafilter wipe it clean with a cloth. That way it will stay hot. It needs at least 15min in most machines to gain heat when the boilers and grouphead are up to temperature.

A decent flush is often needed to get the items around the shower screen hot. It's good practice to flush after a shot as well.

You might like to compare tastes with a hot portafilter and a cold one. If you are an espresso drinker you wont be pleased. May be machine dependent but where various hot things are added to a shot you may be surprised - other than they may be a touch cooler. Far too cool for an espresso drinker. It's worth doing this sort of thing anyway even with a hot one especially if making drinks for yourself and others on the trot. Yours may be the only one that tastes as it should. My wife and son didn't mind me tasting there's but it was a while before I tried them.

I got fed up with tamping concerns so bought 2 things. A 2 slope so called distribution tool - they don't but can be used to apply a rather light tamp that is level. Then a calibrated tamper. I've used 2 as decided to get a 58.5mm one. Prior to that I tamped and then offset the tamper and ran it around with a firm polish. No different to the 58.5mm one. The distribution tool needs to be used the same way - even a 58.5mm one. I did try a 3 wing tool. I found that they are more inclined to mess up flows out of a bottomless pf. Both ideally need evenly distributed grinds before they are used. I chose to use a 15kg tamper. They can usually be adjusted but the one I am currently using can only be set higher by putting washers on top of the spring.  I don't like spending money so none of these were expensive. As they do what they should I can't see any point in changing them. I'm currently guessing 20kg for reason I wont go into. May add washers later but have found with scales that it's easy to guess pretty accurately. 10kg - no thanks I've tried it but different grinders might change that. . The switch from 15 to 20 needed about 4 sec more shot time for the same ratio. Currently in my case anyway.

I also use different basket sizes. You may read about espresso drinker opening the flavours out. Some beans have such a strong flavour that it can masks others - this can mean a weaker drink is needed. I drink americano so could add more water. I don't so dose sizes have to be changed. I always drink near 10oz / 300ml.

 Hope this helps. I reckon espresso at home is a hobby really but eventually it can all be done pretty quickly with any bean that proves suitable for the drinker.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> The triangle is a square ? - Grind setting, dose, output & taste evaluation.
> 
> Most expansion occurs when the 3 way solenoid drops pressure above the puck.
> 
> To me, anything that suggests the puck is expanding tight against the screen, or is impermeable enough to be sucked up against the screen to suffer a deep indentation (rather than a just a ghosting of the screen holes imprint), also suggests it's too dense & water might not be contacting all of the dose...then extraction drops & caramel, choc, almond coffee can start tasting generic, sour. (If the coffee was more rhubarb/cranberry/hibiscus/yellow plum/grapefruit, I'd expect some brightness, but not sharp, pucker inducing tartness).


  I usually agree with you on most things but on fill height afraid not.

? God help us all if people start talking about ideal squares.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> ? God help us all if people start talking about ideal squares.
> 
> John
> 
> -


 No one is even talking about triangles yet, and a triangle based on shot time is more like a line of unknown length.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I sometimes do use time when tuning. Light medium roast so much finer grind than I would normally use. Didn't know that at the time and wondered if the dose needed to be higher and also set much finer at the same time - 0 on Niche. 15g came out in 30sec 14.2 in. I ran it on for far more than I usually would for 30 odd out and forced myself to drink it. I should get green apple and did, cocoa not a trace just a taste I get of some medium roast that I'm not keen on. Looked at the puck and thought overfilled. So just cut back the dose to 13.7 and left grind as it is. The shot was 4sec short this time. Much better no bad taste maybe a touch of black current. Cocoa pass. Can't be sure until the drink has cooled. The initial mouth taste now is apple ish. It was the other one before. So now coarsen the grind a touch for the next shot probably later today.  And so it goes on, longer or shorter times may came next all at that grind or maybe not. If I get it "correct" and don't like it I will attempt to get rid of what I don't like. I'll probably also try a larger basket. The thread that seems to be related to this style of bean also mentions brew temperature - try doing that at the same time. You must be kidding.

Now it's cooled cocoa could be an after taste. Blackcurrent an after sensation on the tongue.  I'm worried I might like it.

I wasted 2x14g due to grind being way off the range it is usually in.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> I sometimes do use time when tuning. Light medium roast so much finer grind than I would normally use. Didn't know that at the time and wondered if the dose needed to be higher and also set much finer at the same time - 0 on Niche. 15g came out in 30sec 14.2 in. I ran it on for far more than I usually would for 30 odd out and forced myself to drink it. I should get green apple and did, cocoa not a trace just a taste I get of some medium roast that I'm not keen on. Looked at the puck and thought overfilled. So just cut back the dose to 13.7 and left grind as it is. The shot was 4sec short this time. Much better no bad taste maybe a touch of black current. Cocoa pass. Can't be sure until the drink has cooled. The initial mouth taste now is apple ish. It was the other one before. So now coarsen the grind a touch for the next shot probably later today.  And so it goes on, longer or shorter times may came next all at that grind or maybe not. If I get it "correct" and don't like it I will attempt to get rid of what I don't like. I'll probably also try a larger basket. The thread that seems to be related to this style of bean also mentions brew temperature - try doing that at the same time. You must be kidding.
> 
> Now it's cooled cocoa could be an after taste. Blackcurrent an after sensation on the tongue.  I'm worried I might like it.
> 
> ...


 You're not 'using time', you're using different doses (could use changes in grind in addition, or instead of) to change extraction, the knock-on effect is changes in time.

Surely the shot was pretty much "correct" when it was, "much better with no bad taste"? If it is correct and you don't like it, how correct can that be?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> You're not 'using time', you're using different doses (could use changes in grind in addition, or instead of) to change extraction, the knock-on effect is changes in time.
> 
> Surely the shot was pretty much "correct" when it was, "much better with no bad taste"? If it is correct and you don't like it, how correct can that be?


 No I'm using time to achieve a ratio. The grind adjustment will be aimed at correcting the extra 4sec the ratio needed. I usually use fixed timed shots and aim to get the same out every time. Lot of trouble as I think you mentioned once especially when I check weigh and stick the mug back on to top up by some amount. Once that is sorted out I use fixed time shots and just check weigh to see how "well" I'm doing. Not everybody's cup of coffee I know but I work that way.

True I shouldn't change 2 things at once but did as things were miles out and unsure why. My first ~14g gave 80 odd ml in 30 sec. 2nd one bought it down to 50. Anyway I did change 2 things at once but this time didn't waste 14g and gained useful information. The drink was "ok" after a fashion and showed some of the characteristics it should do.

The correct taste for me is a balanced one. At the moment I would say the final tongue taste lasts too long.

John

-


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## sjm85 (Sep 9, 2016)

I was frustrated for ages with my super jolly and gaggia classic (with PID).

What made a massive difference was my basket preparation (and some new burrs in the SJ, but that won't relate to your issues).

I grind into a small paper espresso cup, and whisk the grinds with desert fork for a bit. I then decant into the basket as evenly as I can, I got a distribution tool for Christmas so I then spin it a couple times to get an even puck, and then tamp quite lightly (compared to what I used to do). I use a naked PF and I get far less channeling than I used to.

Basket prep, and getting the PID installed made the biggest improvements.

I've also found blends to actually be easier for me than single origin. I'd recommend Heart and Graft Barnraiser which you can buy online. It's a light blend and I've had some really good shots with it.


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

I got my naked PF (ECM one which is lovely). Plus an 18g VST basket.

I wasn't being that careful in distribution as I just wanted a flat white. Filmed my first extraction with this setup. It was much too quick (18 sec for around 40g of espresso). It wasn't until I watched the video I noticed a little breakthrough spurt from a channel.

tasted OK. I'm going finer on the grind tomorrow and will pay more attention to the distribution.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0WX8AFX5UaA_0IGkJn1AS0wHA#Burnham


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

M5Sime said:


> I got my naked PF (ECM one which is lovely). Plus an 18g VST basket.
> 
> I wasn't being that careful in distribution as I just wanted a flat white. Filmed my first extraction with this setup. It was much too quick (18 sec for around 40g of espresso). It wasn't until I watched the video I noticed a little breakthrough spurt from a channel.
> 
> ...


 Don't necessarily grind finer as that plus poor distribution can cause more problems. Or even more channeling.

Get your distribution right first, are you using a funnel? 
then start changing grind etc.


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## KingoftheHeath (Nov 22, 2019)

TomHughes said:


> Don't necessarily grind finer as that plus poor distribution can cause more problems. Or even more channeling.
> Get your distribution right first, are you using a funnel?
> then start changing grind etc.


Good point. Definitely get distribution and prep spot on first. On the other hand, flow looked alright, bit of work to do, but I'd bet that grinding finer is part of the answer.

For what it's worth here is my workflow:
Grind into Niche dosing cup. Swirl with Londinium tool (Christmas present - would have made DIY version otherwise due to cost, but it does a mighty fine job). Flip dosing cup into portafilter, shake, tap cup, tap pf lightly on tamping mat. Even mound out with finger. Tap sides of pf to get everything even - tapping of where bed is lowest e.g if the mound is built up at 2 o'clock I tap at 7 o'clock to even it out. Tap pf lightly on mat. Quick spin with distribution tool; set just firm enough so that it flattens the bed. Tamp till I can't tamp no more. Nutate tamper slightly - I do this because I was getting edge wormholes on my 18 vst basket. Polish whilst lifting tamper up - I don't know why, but I've read that polishing with force is bad for the puck.

Photo below of post-shot bed. Mmm, sexy.


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

Thanks for the replies! My puck at 18g still seems to touch my screen once extracted.. this morning I tweaked the grind and prob went a little heavy on the tamp. 40 plus sec for 1:2 extraction of 18g of ground coffee. Espresso was not nice. Binned.

relaxed grind a little and less crazy on tamp. Quite a bit of faffing trying to distribute. Same dose extractions in 30sec .. Seems better to taste but made flat white anyway and they are ok in Milk.

I am beginning to suspect these beans re the sourness.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

M5Sime said:


> Thanks for the replies! My puck at 18g still seems to touch my screen once extracted.. this morning I tweaked the grind and prob went a little heavy on the tamp. 40 plus sec for 1:2 extraction of 18g of ground coffee. Espresso was not nice. Binned.
> 
> relaxed grind a little and less crazy on tamp. Quite a bit of faffing trying to distribute. Same dose extractions in 30sec .. Seems better to taste but made flat white anyway and they are ok in Milk.
> 
> I am beginning to suspect these beans re the sourness.


 The earlier video you posted was kind of pointless to be honest. You can't check your distribution with a gusher. You need to get your grind right to see if you're getting channelling...when it matters anyway.

Why wasn't the espresso nice at 40 seconds 1:2? Bitter, sour? If it's sour increase to 2.5 or 3, if bitter drop to less than two maybe 1.5. Sourness could be down to low alkalinity of your water. Maybe drop dose to 17.5g too just to give that little bit more room. Don't worry about going heavy on the tamp so long as you tamp once and don't mess about with the puck after that -- i.e smashing it into the group, dropping it on the counter. Again change one variable at a time i.e don't change your tamp and your grind.

Distribution doesn't need to be faffing. Learn to tap the side of the portafilter to get a level bed. Quick firm taps, not so hard as to make the coffee flip up over to one side of the basket, then once down on the counter to see if it's level....a little channelling is probably not the cause of significant problems, you can still have perfectly drinkable tasty shots.


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> The earlier video you posted was kind of pointless to be honest. You can't check your distribution with a gusher. You need to get your grind right to see if you're getting channelling...when it matters anyway.
> 
> Why wasn't the espresso nice at 40 seconds 1:2? Bitter, sour? If it's sour increase to 2.5 or 3, if bitter drop to less than two maybe 1.5. Sourness could be down to low alkalinity of your water. Maybe drop dose to 17.5g too just to give that little bit more room. Don't worry about going heavy on the tamp so long as you tamp once and don't mess about with the puck after that -- i.e smashing it into the group, dropping it on the counter. Again change one variable at a time i.e don't change your tamp and your grind.
> 
> Distribution doesn't need to be faffing. Learn to tap the side of the portafilter to get a level bed. Quick firm taps, not so hard as to make the coffee flip up over to one side of the basket, then once down on the counter to see if it's level....a little channelling is probably not the cause of significant problems, you can still have perfectly drinkable tasty shots.


 Glad you liked the video Rob! Appreciate the feedback in general. I'm getting convinced that the beans are part of the issue as my technique seems good enough to get what appears to be a good espresso texture - just sour to taste. More experimentation to come, and with different beans.


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## Bagpu55 (Dec 23, 2019)

Just had a delivery of the same beans. I hope they are ok ??. Will let you know


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## GazRef (Dec 30, 2019)

Rob1 said:


> The earlier video you posted was kind of pointless to be honest. You can't check your distribution with a gusher. You need to get your grind right to see if you're getting channelling...when it matters anyway.
> 
> Why wasn't the espresso nice at 40 seconds 1:2? Bitter, sour?* If it's sour increase to 2.5 or 3, if bitter drop to less than two maybe 1.5.* Sourness could be down to low alkalinity of your water. Maybe drop dose to 17.5g too just to give that little bit more room. Don't worry about going heavy on the tamp so long as you tamp once and don't mess about with the puck after that -- i.e smashing it into the group, dropping it on the counter. Again change one variable at a time i.e don't change your tamp and your grind.
> 
> Distribution doesn't need to be faffing. Learn to tap the side of the portafilter to get a level bed. Quick firm taps, not so hard as to make the coffee flip up over to one side of the basket, then once down on the counter to see if it's level....a little channelling is probably not the cause of significant problems, you can still have perfectly drinkable tasty shots.


 Oddly enough I once thought about adjusting be brew ratio to troubleshoot taste issues but all the literature tells you to lock in the dose and adjust elsewhere first adjusting ratio as final option. Are there any generalities with brew ratios for lighter/darker roasts?

Love the Hoffman series on dialing in recipes but without a good palate I find it difficult. Sour and bitter should be obvious on paper but when its hot espresso is that unpleasant lingering after taste sourness or bitterness?? Is that not bad but something missing thin shot sour or bitter? It gets hard guessing how you should adjust if you can't accurately quantify the output. Wondering if doing a local barista course would help with the palate or if its more the mechanical skills they offer. Sorry for digressing its been an interesting thread.


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## Uriel4953 (Dec 1, 2019)

After a recommendation from here i'm currently using rave signature blend and have been really enjoying it. Seemed to dial in really easily and i don't think i have had a bad coffee out of it so far. Might just be my peasants palette, but my brother was here last week for the week and he really enjoyed it too.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

You lock your dose in assuming it fits properly in the filter. Changing brew ratios means changing output.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

GazRef said:


> Oddly enough I once thought about adjusting be brew ratio to troubleshoot taste issues but all the literature tells you to lock in the dose and adjust elsewhere first adjusting ratio as final option. Are there any generalities with brew ratios for lighter/darker roasts?
> 
> Love the Hoffman series on dialing in recipes but without a good palate I find it difficult. Sour and bitter should be obvious on paper but when its hot espresso is that unpleasant lingering after taste sourness or bitterness?? Is that not bad but something missing thin shot sour or bitter? It gets hard guessing how you should adjust if you can't accurately quantify the output. Wondering if doing a local barista course would help with the palate or if its more the mechanical skills they offer. Sorry for digressing its been an interesting thread.


 See above and generally less output for darker roasts more for lighter. Though you'd adjust based on taste. A bad aftertaste could be bad beans, tainted grinder or machine with old oils, or over or under extraction but 'bad' would need to be defined. Drying and weird back of the throat kind of bitterness I would say indicates over extraction, just bitterness might not be and could just be roasty flavours. A shot that lacks something is probably not bitter, might not be sour, just means you can grind finer and push extraction up. Again could be water with very low or very high alkalinity. Should also say you can push through a bland slightly bitter espresso, push extraction up even further and end up with something that is near as good as it will get.

@M5Sime I hope you're stirring the espresso and the crema. Some people skim it off. Taking a sip of crema will always taste awful. Very unlikely to be anything wrong with the beans. Rave are very popular, have a tonne of experience, and this is their signature blend. It's possible of course, but very unlikely. Could always drop them an email with the batch number and see what they say.


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

FWIW I have drunk a lot of Raves signature blend. It has always been an easy go to choice if I wanted somthing cheap and pretty easy.

I do fine I like it most after it has rested for around 2 weeks and I also pull it a little longer than they reccomend.

I like it around 20in 45out in around 35secs

However I'm kind of done with it.... I have a bag of their seasonal decaf for at night and walks all over the signature blend IMO...

I'm going to give Red Brick a go, have had it out and about in coffee shops but never at home. If for no reason other than to throw a bit back towards James Hoffman who's YouTube content I really appreciate.


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

GazRef said:


> Oddly enough I once thought about adjusting be brew ratio to troubleshoot taste issues but all the literature tells you to lock in the dose and adjust elsewhere first adjusting ratio as final option. Are there any generalities with brew ratios for lighter/darker roasts?
> 
> Love the Hoffman series on dialing in recipes but without a good palate I find it difficult. Sour and bitter should be obvious on paper but when its hot espresso is that unpleasant lingering after taste sourness or bitterness?? Is that not bad but something missing thin shot sour or bitter? It gets hard guessing how you should adjust if you can't accurately quantify the output. Wondering if doing a local barista course would help with the palate or if its more the mechanical skills they offer. Sorry for digressing its been an interesting thread.


 Hi - I'm glad the thread has been interesting! I am grateful for the replies and I don't seem to be unique that the path well trodden is a not necessarily quick one


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

M5Sime said:


> Hi - I'm glad the thread has been interesting! I am grateful for the replies and I don't seem to be unique that the path well trodden is a not necessarily quick one


 No not quick and also constantly changes. The problem with coffee and more so espresso is the number of variables is just ridiculous.

If you 'assume' the beans are well roasted you then have

Resting time, 
storage (access to O2 etc.)
grinder type
grind setting 
hopper/SD
grind amount...

haven't even got near the machine yet!

Then at the end of the day it's taste that matters. I have a coffee that I love and literally everyone I know dislikes it.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

TomHughes said:


> No not quick and also constantly changes. The problem with coffee and more so espresso is the number of variables is just ridiculous.
> 
> If you 'assume' the beans are well roasted you then have
> 
> ...


 Espresso isn't any harder than other brew methods.

Half the things you list as variables aren't.

Machine & grinder aren't variables, just keep using the same ones 

Hopper/SD - stick to one or the other.

Get your dose sorted. Grind is the variable you use most often to effect changes. Use brew ratio, if that isn't working. This will take care of bean ageing, storage, Saggittarius rising, or notable events in the Mayan calendar.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

MWJB said:


> Espresso isn't any harder than other brew methods.
> 
> Half the things you list as variables aren't.
> 
> ...


 I hope you aren't in a position that requires the giving of feedback. 
Ever heard of the Sh1T sandwich? Clearly not. Here goes.

You make some valid points, particularly around the variables you can fix/control.

However just because variables can be temporarily fixed, doesn't mean they aren't variables.

You finish on a nice helpful summary of how someone might move forward


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've seen evidence that when a hopper is used there is a need to stick with it and the bean for a longer time than many would before it gives fairly constant doses. Do that and adding the grinds may be as simple as it looks in most cafe's especially if there is a nice evenly placed load in the portafilter. There will be dose variations and also drift due to other factors. That means weight still needs to be checked. The dose varies so shot time will for some required ratio. A cafe is probably using a volumetric machine which will alter the shot time itself. At home people often weigh out - same thing. There has been talk of gravimetric machines - rather than volume they weigh out. Suspect they are wishful thinking and don't exist.

I had my period of channelling. I put it down to a marginal situation. fixed an no more. Grinds expand as water goes in, insufficient space and water has part way found it's way through. Where it does that it also exerts pressure on the grinds - net effect a channel forms and lots of water goes through it, often at or near the edge. I have use a funnel that fits into the portafilter also a 58mm tamper. Neither of those caused it. I changed to a funnel that didn't fit into the portafilter because I wanted a taller one with the lowest possible diameter and that is what was available. I changed to a 58.5mm tamper to stop needing to offset the 58mm one against the basket and run it around like that to firmly polish the edge - that left less traces of grinds behind when the puck was knocked out. I still offset a 58.5mm "distribution" tool so may as well have stuck with the 58. Baskets widen towards the top. I might have found a low fill needs the 58mm tamper.

Personally I see time as another variable. I use it for my wife's drinks - risteretto. She gets 20sec, I use 30. I could use any numbers I like. Main problem is that adding other variables that can be used to that leaves too many to look at when I'm trying a new bean. On the other hand if some one is using stepless that isn't easy to finely adjust or a stepped grinder the only way to find out what a change in time does is to try it and find out. The same applies to ratio and significant time changes do push the taste in the direction they should go. Maybe ideal may not be.

Of late people always stir grinds. That can with some beans leave a worse distribution than leaving them as is.

John

-


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

TomHughes said:


> I hope you aren't in a position that requires the giving of feedback.
> Ever heard of the Sh1T sandwich? Clearly not. Here goes.
> 
> You make some valid points, particularly around the variables you can fix/control.
> ...


 There is no bad, or unpalatable news in my post.

However, you seem to be suggesting that the factors that lead to making a decent cup of coffee are so numerous & untrackable, that it sounds like a lottery. This strikes me as an unavoidable negative that we're expected to just live with. You forgot the sandwich, you're just giving us the filling 

Sure, there will be off cups, but they shouldn't be the norm.

If you like a coffee that other folks don't, that's totally fine (as far as taste is concerned, the coffee itself is the biggest variable, but that's why explore). You know how to make what you enjoy, they're free to pass up the offer of a cup. You have invested the time & money in your pursuit, you need to enjoy it. Do these other folk make you a cup of coffee that you perceive as great? Do they worry about that? Other people make coffee for me on a daily basis, they don't use coffee that I would buy, they make it the way they make it & mostly I am thankful for their kindness (I'll make a polite request/suggestion if I think I can fix a serious, repeated problem).


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Tom, I think it's easy to overthink the whole process. After a while it becomes almost automatic, those "multitude of variables", become no more difficult that the ones involved in making a cup of tea, opening a front door, or the hugely complex process of driving the car to the local supermarket.

Just like the things above, I don't really need to think too much about making an espresso. For me the only variables I actually notice are, the output weight, grind setting and perhaps temperature. Oh and of course, which machine I happen to be using that week a problem not usually experienced by others. Apart from that everything else remains constant enough, not to have a huge effect.

Even If you are using profiling, then there is another variable set but by then your experience will be such that "driving the machine" isn't what you need to think about, tweaking the profile is. Much the same as learning to drive a car, initially you have to learn how to control the car and drive it smoothly, once you are competent you only think about how to get to your destination.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> Tom, I think it's easy to overthink the whole process. After a while it becomes almost automatic, those "multitude of variables", become no more difficult that the ones involved in making a cup of tea, opening a front door, or the hugely complex process of driving the car to the local supermarket.
> 
> Just like the things above, I don't really need to think too much about making an espresso. For me the only variables I actually notice are, the output weight, grind setting and perhaps temperature. Oh and of course, which machine I happen to be using that week a problem not usually experienced by others. Apart from that everything else remains constant enough, not to have a huge effect.
> 
> Even If you are using profiling, then there is another variable set but by then your experience will be such that "driving the machine" isn't what you need to think about, tweaking the profile is. Much the same as learning to drive a car, initially you have to learn how to control the car and drive it smoothly, once you are competent you only think about how to get to your destination.


 Hi Dave, thank you for the post but I don't think you really got entirely what I was meaning.

I was never stating those things were negative, in fact I think they are what makes coffee so fascinating. 
I am scientist by trade, with a past life in medicine and more recently triathlon coaching.

Many people think of those variables as 'problems' (negative) they HAVE to solve, I think of them as 'problems' (positive) I GET to solve.

Personally (and this is only my opinion) if you go into coffee thinking that finding the right bean/setup/method etc. is going to be easy then you might as well get a fully bean to cup machine or a pot of instant.

The fascination is in the experimenting. Its in the tweaking, it's in the buying new fun things that you pretend you 'need' to make a great coffee.

I do this because unfortunately life circumstances mean I can no longer pursue fiddling with bikes. Instead I'll fiddle with coffee bits.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

TomHughes said:


> Personally (and this is only my opinion) if you go into coffee thinking that finding the right bean/setup/method etc. is going to be easy then you might as well get a fully bean to cup machine or a pot of instant.


 Well, what you want to get out of coffee is up to you, enjoy it how you please. But in a thread specifically discussing frustration, permanent experimenting might not be the goal?

We're not pushing envelopes, discovering new horizons, we're making cups of a well known & regularly consumed hot beverage. This happens millions of times a day. People on this forum have done it many thousands of times, so perhaps some of us can choose when we want to experiment & when we want to take a carefully grown, processed & roasted coffee, reasonably realising its potential in the cup (we're making tiny, tiny batches so some variability is to be expected). The real hard work has been done before the coffee arrives with you/me.

Most bean to cups are designed around convenience at a price, rather than consistency/quality. You don't even need that to enjoy coffee, you don't need any machines beyond a grinder & way to heat the water. As to method, they're all essentially the same, we grind the roasted coffee & introduce it to hot water to extract the solubles...some methods make coffee stronger than others, some are faster/slower.

If instant was available at a reasonable price & tasted good, like perhaps a well extracted cup of the Kenyan SL28 & SL32 I'm drinking right now, I'd be happy to give it a shot, or use it to introduce friends & relatives to an alternative coffee experience. But it's not, it's cheaper & more convenient for me to make it at present.

I love to experiment, but there's a time for that. When people are asking for help, giving solid advice that will cut down time & coffee wasted is probably more apt.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

MWJB said:


> Well, what you want to get out of coffee is up to you, enjoy it how you please. But in a thread specifically discussing frustration, permanent experimenting might not be the goal?
> 
> We're not pushing envelopes, discovering new horizons, we're making cups of a well known & regularly consumed hot beverage. This happens millions of times a day. People on this forum have done it many thousands of times, so perhaps some of us can choose when we want to experiment & when we want to take a carefully grown, processed & roasted coffee, reasonably realising its potential in the cup (we're making tiny, tiny batches so some variability is to be expected). The real hard work has been done before the coffee arrives with you/me.
> 
> ...


 We will agree to disagree. 
But could I ask you very nicely not to respond to my posts anymore. I get enough condescension at home thanks.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

People are allowed to post it's down to you put them on the ignore list then.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

TomHughes said:


> We will agree to disagree.
> But could I ask you very nicely not to respond to my posts anymore. I get enough condescension at home thanks.


 There's no condescension intended, nor implied. These are public threads, read by more than just the contributors, so full discussion benefits everyone. I won't, however, be told what I can & can''t respond to.

If you want to broadcast, without comment, start a blog.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Jony said:


> People are allowed to post it's down to you put them on the ignore list then.


 Ah excellent thanks, I didn't know you could do that.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Well you now know, even so he is actually quite knowledgeable in water and filter coffee it's a shame you feel like this.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Jony said:


> Well you now know, even so he is actually quite knowledgeable in water and filter coffee it's a shame you feel like this.


 I agree, and some of his points have definitely given me food for thought. But being confronted on an almost daily basis with a post telling me how wrong I am for something that is merely an opinion, such as daring to suggest something as a variable is getting too much. I come on here for pleasure not to be spoken to like a moron.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

TomHughes said:


> I agree, and some of his points have definitely given me food for thought. But being confronted on an almost daily basis with a post telling me how wrong I am for something that is merely an opinion, such as daring to suggest something as a variable is getting too much. I come on here for pleasure not to be spoken to like a moron.


 No slight intended. But on a public forum you can't expect unconditional agreement.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

MWJB said:


> No slight intended. But on a public forum you can't expect unconditional agreement.


 I agree, but there is a right way and a wrong way to disagree with someone.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

TomHughes said:


> Ah excellent thanks, I didn't know you could do that.


 He's actually one of the good guys Tom. I saw the post that you may not have liked as very similar to DaveC's - it's very easy to over complicate and overthink coffee. He also mentioned an aspect that often isn't - dose.

Personally I suspect most of the frustration people get via espresso machines is down to the usual instructions that are around. Also I am afraid from august posters of youtube videos as well. I'm not saying don't watch them. Just bear in mind that the methods used may not suite some one else's beans, equipment but most importantly of all* taste*. These people will invariably introduce further "complications" as well.

Taste is all it's all about really. That varies according to he person even if some use the same bean. The rules used in tuning are not some series of static numbers but ok that is a place to start. Later some one may find they can start some where else and still get to where they find they need to be quickly.Far more quickly than they were initially.

Peoples previous or current employment may influence how they go about doing things as well. LOL Sure does in my case.

John

-


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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

Yes, there are a few condescending ppl here, and yes from time to time they can't control it; I should know, I trained all of them ?

Also...


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## GazRef (Dec 30, 2019)

Rob1 said:


> See above and generally less output for darker roasts more for lighter. Though you'd adjust based on taste. A bad aftertaste could be bad beans, tainted grinder or machine with old oils, or over or under extraction but 'bad' would need to be defined. Drying and weird back of the throat kind of bitterness I would say indicates over extraction, just bitterness might not be and could just be roasty flavours. A shot that lacks something is probably not bitter, might not be sour, just means you can grind finer and push extraction up. Again could be water with very low or very high alkalinity. Should also say you can push through a bland slightly bitter espresso, push extraction up even further and end up with something that is near as good as it will get.


 Increasing the output of a 30 second 1:2 that tastes *under *extracted makes sense but am I wrong to assume people would grind coarser to hit the 1:2.5-3 ratio is the same 30 seconds? Pushing more liquid through makes sense but grinding coarser doesn't. That combo seems at odds. I'm sure once all this clicks it's super obvious but I seem to spend more time tinkering and playing than enjoying great espresso.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GazRef said:


> Increasing the output of a 30 second 1:2 that tastes *under *extracted makes sense but am I wrong to assume people would grind coarser to hit the 1:2.5-3 ratio is the same 30 seconds? Pushing more liquid through makes sense but grinding coarser doesn't. That combo seems at odds. I'm sure once all this clicks it's super obvious but I seem to spend more time tinkering and playing than enjoying great espresso.


 Focus on how the grind setting, at that ratio, affects the taste. 30s is a bit meaningless, shot time only has a very loose relationship to extraction. As long as you are over 20s & things taste good there's no need to hit, or exceed 30s unless this tastes better (which would be only because you ground finer). Likewise, if your 30s+ shots at 1:3 lack clarity, or are a bit silty, see if going coarser cleans/brightens them up (or if you like them on the chewier side, less bright - leave as is).

Time is a byproduct of bean, grind & ratio.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

GazRef said:


> Am I wrong to assume people would grind coarser to hit the 1:2.5-3 ratio is the same 30 seconds?


 Yes.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

GazRef said:


> Increasing the output of a 30 second 1:2 that tastes *under *extracted makes sense but am I wrong to assume people would grind coarser to hit the 1:2.5-3 ratio is the same 30 seconds? Pushing more liquid through makes sense but grinding coarser doesn't. That combo seems at odds. I'm sure once all this clicks it's super obvious but I seem to spend more time tinkering and playing than enjoying great espresso.


 I sometimes think the terms over and under extracted should be banned. The basic idea is a balanced flavour according to what the bean should have but say it was a fruity bean and some one didn't like the amount of fruit and wanted to reduce that aspect - that's where things get tricky. An answer may be to set the grind a bit finer or run more water through via a coarser grind. An extended or even shorter time might do the same thing on another bean.

Answering your question yes keep the 30sec and change the grinder setting at least initially. Everyone needs to start somewhere. Personally with a new bean I like to try a ratio of around 2, around 3 and one in the middle. It gives me an idea of how the taste behaves. I don't mind time varying by a few seconds to achieve this especially if longer. That gives me an idea of what ratio to aim for. In that range I generally drink all of them as they need to cool by rather a lot to fully appreciate taste. I drink americano. Milk based people may not have that problem.  I'd be inclined to say if the bean tastes disgusting over that range it may be unsuitable. I find rather short shots where I can't use time to increase as it would need too much do go down the sink.

I've not found a fresh roasted bean that needs significantly higher ratio than 3. If things looked more interesting there I would try higher. Same with working lower than 2 but not had that experience.

The practical aspect is setting the grinder to give an exact ratio. Some may find they need to vary time a bit. Or the dose for small changes. When people weigh out they are allowing time to vary probably down to variations in grinds prep, phase of the moon or if there is an r in the month and slight variations in what comes out of the grinder.

There are other things that can be tried as well. Risteretto and lungo. Shorter or longer time based on a tuned dose of some sort at 30sec.Time to be tried and tasted. I base those terms on what a cafe would do. They have a standard shot and dose. They wont want to reset the grinder to achieve them. This sort of thing is probably best left until some one regularly uses the same bean or for situations where a change is needed for a particular person who drinks it - in my case my wife. It allows me to use the same bean for both of us.  Lucky me that it works out on this bean.

John

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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

ajohn said:


> When people weigh out they are allowing time to vary probably down to variations in grinds prep, phase of the moon or if there is an r in the month and slight variations in what comes out of the grinder.


 They really aren't. It's just another measure. Time might vary insignificantly. Bean age and humidity might alter it more than anything.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Rob1 said:


> They really aren't. It's just another measure. Time might vary insignificantly. Bean age and humidity might alter it more than anything.


 I wont recommend it for anyone but try working with a fixed shot time as I do and have done for a long time. It has has a good points - finding out what variation in ratio is acceptable and eventually why they occur. Tuning as I tend to also gives and idea what a couple of extra seconds of shot time does to ratio.

Also while at it keep an eye on "tiger striping" variations on the bottom of the basket.

John

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## Bagpu55 (Dec 23, 2019)

M5Sime said:


> Hi all, I'm wondering how long it took you to get a good espresso technique working? I am a novice, and have been adhering to the measure, weight and attempting tamp pressure consistency. I'm generally not very impressed however with taste of espresso and grinder fiddling.
> 
> This morning I switched beans (recommended Rave coffee blend). Made an espresso - sour!
> 
> ...


 How you getting on with the Beans? I have been hammering through my kilo bag this week now they are 7 days post roast. Very variable results but slowly improving for me. Was initially getting bitter and sourness, then more bitter and watery, finally over the last few days sweetness and a bit of balance. My machine is new to new to me plus im using a brand new hand grinder. Biggest changes for me was regulating my temperature more and trying to do the same thing each time (shots were quite cool in the beginning). I was probably overdosing so cut back. Im new to this business also and have been trying really hard do the same thing each time. My problem is that I prefer milky drinks so have been drinking a ton of espresso to find what tastes right first. It has all tasted good with milk to be fair but maybe not the smash of flavour that I was expecting but then again these are cheap good beans and might have to try something different once I have my procedure more systematic. I feel your frustration, dialling in on a handgrinder is a bit more hit and miss but by far the best drinks I have made (not coming from much tho).


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

M5Sime said:


> Ps - on my Profitec Pro600 the PF puck never dries and always holds a vacuum as once I break the seal on the PF some water comes from the group head drain. Is this normal?


 Not use an E61 grouphead but doesn't that have something to do with how the lever is manipulated at the end of a shot ?

Using tamp to control things isn't a good idea really. You've set finer so accept the change in shot weight or alter the time to achieve the ratio what ever it is. I find it best to try ratios of close to 2, 2.5 and 3. Odd exceptions higher than that.

Tamp - read about light tamping - forget it until you have achieved reproducible results. I'd suggest aiming for 15kg or more. Straining a little can help keep it consistent. Maybe even sort of leaning on it at the same time.

A video of your prep and shot pull can sometimes help sort peoples problems out. The grinder you are using might have a bearing on this as well.


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## Bagpu55 (Dec 23, 2019)

LOL still just randomly making shots. Just put my last attempt into a chocolate brownie mixture. Holy cow it tastes amazing, espresso really lifts the flavours, can taste the chocolate note now ??


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## NikonGuy (Jul 31, 2014)

Bagpu55 said:


> LOL still just randomly making shots. Just put my last attempt into a chocolate brownie mixture. Holy cow it tastes amazing, espresso really lifts the flavours, can taste the chocolate note now ??


 Try putting a shot in a Chili, really lifts it!


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## NikonGuy (Jul 31, 2014)

Bagpu55 said:


> How you getting on with the Beans? I have been hammering through my kilo bag this week now they are 7 days post roast. Very variable results but slowly improving for me. Was initially getting bitter and sourness, then more bitter and watery, finally over the last few days sweetness and a bit of balance. My machine is new to new to me plus im using a brand new hand grinder. Biggest changes for me was regulating my temperature more and trying to do the same thing each time (shots were quite cool in the beginning). I was probably overdosing so cut back. Im new to this business also and have been trying really hard do the same thing each time. My problem is that I prefer milky drinks so have been drinking a ton of espresso to find what tastes right first. It has all tasted good with milk to be fair but maybe not the smash of flavour that I was expecting but then again these are cheap good beans and might have to try something different once I have my procedure more systematic. I feel your frustration, dialling in on a handgrinder is a bit more hit and miss but by far the best drinks I have made (not coming from much tho).


 In my learning days going from a hand grinder to a burr grinder made a night and day difference to my Espresso's, both in terms of taste and consistency. What machine do you have?


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## Bagpu55 (Dec 23, 2019)

NikonGuy said:


> In my learning days going from a hand grinder to a burr grinder made a night and day difference to my Espresso's, both in terms of taste and consistency. What machine do you have?


 Feld 47. About a minute 20 grind time depending how thirsty I am.


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