# VST baskets - good or not good.



## Ian_G (Nov 10, 2011)

I switched from my regular Faema basket over to a VST. I noticed I could get a much finer grind for any dose weight in the VST. This made me think it would be better, since I would be able to extract more of the coffee and so get bigger and better flavours coming through. Sadly this has not been the case most of the time.

The thought occurs to me that unless the roaster is using a VST basket to develop his roasts then using one a VST to taste the products is a waste of time. If, however, the roaster is using a VST then it's essential that the consumer does this too.

The problem is: How do you know if the roaster used a VST in the development of the coffee or not? Other than trial and error you're not going to know.

This is one of those "Is it me?" moments or do others notice that using a VST is not necessarily an advantage? I find that the VST digs the flavour out of some coffees extremely well, but for others especially traditional Italian blends, what it digs out of the coffee ruins the taste compared to a bog standard basket.

Is it the case that too fine a grind (VST) can unbalance a coffee that was really developed using a coarser grind (generic basket)?


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

I kind of agree with you. I find the lighter roast (3rd wave style) beans seem to taste better with VST but the darker more traditional roasts taste muddier than usual. I've found a way around this though. Well it works for me. I extract my darker roasts quicker than normal 21-23 seconds and lighter roasts more in the 25-30 second mark. I have no science to back this up I just found out by trial and error.... (prepares to be shot down as a buffoon)


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

I really rate the VST baskets and use an 18g regularly.

But... I roast my own and tend to roast on the light side, so that may account for my success with the VST. I find that it does need a slightly finer grind and that the puck finishes up sloppier than with a standard basket. I also usually stop my pulls slightly shorter - around 25 seconds.

I would now be very reluctant to return to the standard basket.

Sent via Tapatalk


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I think it's a great question, and in an ideal world I think it would be good if roasters were able to identify extremely specific extraction parameters pertaining to their roast, but I think it's fairly unlikely that it works that way at the moment (if there are any roasters out there who do then please correct me). I suspect it's more a case of building a blend based upon the components (i.e. cupping each component), seeing how they cup when blended, then trying them in their espresso machine with a variety of parameters. Yes, there might be variations in the espresso caused by the basket, but it's just one of the many variables... including personaly taste... and if a roaster's blend only worked when extracted to the parameters the roaster specified then it would be very limiting. I think that's why roasters who give parameters (eg Square Mile, who also recommend a VST basket, possibly because they tested the roast with one) tend to say that the given parameters are just a starting point.

My 2p, as always.


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## Ian_G (Nov 10, 2011)

I have to admit that it's just a guess on my part about how roasters go about their work and whether they factor in basket type to their calculations. It would be interesting to know if they try their products out on different machines as well, or whether what they describe in the cup is only what you can achieve from a reference machine.

I agree with MonkeyHarris that the VST muddies the flavour of Italian roasts - it's a good description.

I think where I am coming from is that I have noticed a big difference both positive and negative depending on the bean and depending on the basket used. The fact that Square Mile recommends VST use with their roasts is interesting.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

This reminds me of a post I read on Home Barista (I will see if I can track down the thread). If I remember correctly the thread was originally about resting/degassing periods for different roasts but it was suggested that different basket geometries suit different flavour profiles in beans.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Here we are:

http://www.home-barista.com/coffees/why-coffee-needs-to-rest-before-making-espresso-t1289.html


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

To be honest I love my 15g VST, Extractions are visually better & so is the taste for my palate. Shots are more balanced, more complex....possibly a better representation of the beans true characteristics......kind of like ''there you go thats what it really tastes like''. Sloppy puck, yes a downside, but that ends up in the bin anyways and cleaning still needs to occur regardless.

I dont use italian roasts to be honest, Hasbean's Retro Premium Blend is about as dark as I have tried in it & that wasnt muddy.

I think I should give my old basket a crack and see what results I get, its been so long since I used it


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Having just dialed my 15g VST basket in using my favourite dark roasted (Italian style) beans, I would say flavour is comparable to standard basket except I let the extraction run a little bit faster due to the greater surface area generated by the finer grind.

I can't think what would be causing this muddiness except over extraction. May aim for a quicker extraction?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I find that I get earthy notes when I grind too coarse and have a short extraction time. If you're also finding the mouthfeel a little 'tacky' or 'claggy' maybe that's it.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Today I had to start dump to get a decent shot, without having changed anything. The grind can't need adjusting already?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

fatboyslim said:


> Today I had to start dump to get a decent shot, without having changed anything. The grind can't need adjusting already?


Expect to adust the grind several times throughout the day, and certainly on a morning. Sometimes you can get away without doing so, but always expect the first shot to be just an indicator of the adjustment you need to make before getting it right on your second or third shot. Whether you dump the calibration shot depends how fussy you want to be or how bd it was. I often keep it... my wife isn't fussy about her coffee


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## jimrobo (Aug 5, 2011)

Thats why the guest gets the first coffee at my place


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

The shorter extractions definitely seem to be working for me with darker roasted beans. 21 second shot this morning (usually would have gone down the sink) but tasted fantastic. Very crisp and easy to pick out flavours. I suppose if the grind is finer and there's more surface area it makes sense that you can extract faster.


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## Ian_G (Nov 10, 2011)

Sounds like I need to try again with faster pours. I wonder what the effect of using less coffee would be? I think I need to experiment a bit more before reaching a definitive conclusion.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

I find darker roasts tend to be more tolerant to lower extraction levels - most lighter roasts tend to taste really sour and astringent when under extracted. Dosing less coffee should lead to increased caramels and sugars in the cup depending upon your flow rate. I find the VST baskets very particular about the dose of coffee in the basket.


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