# Moka Pot in 3-4 minutes - how?



## aka_pseudonym (Aug 1, 2016)

Perceived wisdom - as I've been told and read - is:

1) The total brewing time for a Moka pot should be 3 to 4 minutes - that's from onto the heat until off the heat

2) The Italians never pre-heat the water

3) The smallest Moka pots make the best coffee

I have a 6 cup pot. I take a lot of care in adding the coffee precisely so the pressure is right. There are no leaks from the washer or the valve. And I simply can't do 3-4 minutes whatever I try. Small or medium burner (conventional gas cooker fed by LPG), trivets or no trivets or pre-heated trivets. I can't manage anything under about five and a half minutes.

So is it possible? Or does it only apply to the little 3-cup pots and that's why they are meant to make the best coffee? Or does it require an electric cooker or an Aga? Any advice?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Time the flow from the centre pipe until the first puffs of steam, then kill the brew by removing from heat/quenching the base in water. The rest of the time is just the water getting up to temperature/pressure & no brewing is taking place. Weigh the coffee, water & beverage produced, grind finer to slow the flow, coarser to speed it up & change grind based on taste.

The speed at which the pot gets up to temperature will be based on heat applied, material, water mass.

I'd only worry about what Italians do if they are coming round to drink it, otherwise do what works for you.


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## JacobJames93 (Jan 7, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Time the flow from the centre pipe until the first puffs of steam, then kill the brew by removing from heat/quenching the base in water. The rest of the time is just the water getting up to temperature/pressure & no brewing is taking place. Weigh the coffee, water & beverage produced, grind finer to slow the flow, coarser to speed it up & change grind based on taste.
> 
> The speed at which the pot gets up to temperature will be based on heat applied, material, water mass.
> 
> I'd only worry about what Italians do if they are coming round to drink it, otherwise do what works for you.


I've been using a mokka pot for 2-3 years now and never thought to time it like that, makes so much sense now you mention it!


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## aka_pseudonym (Aug 1, 2016)

Oh! No! I believed 3-4 minutes was the total time - ie heating from cold until a full pot of coffee.

3-4 minutes from the coffee starting to flow until a full pot would be almost impossible surely? You'd have to regulate the temperature to keep the pressure just enough to force the water through the grind and up the pipe while allowing for the reduction of water/increase in steam in the base etc etc for 3-4 minutes!!!!!!

I was led to believe (by knowledgeable people in a coffee emporium) the 3-4 minutes was the whole of the cooking process. Because although the brew might not flow for three and a half minutes the coffee is heated and wetted prior to that by the vapour which precedes the actual flow.


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## caramel (Jun 22, 2016)

3-4 minutes sounds about right for my 4 cup brikka from start to finish using cold water.

Are you putting in the right amount of water? The top part should have a marker, you fill to that line and pour it in the bottom part.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

aka_pseudonym said:


> Oh! No! I believed 3-4 minutes was the total time - ie heating from cold until a full pot of coffee.
> 
> 3-4 minutes from the coffee starting to flow until a full pot would be almost impossible surely? You'd have to regulate the temperature to keep the pressure just enough to force the water through the grind and up the pipe while allowing for the reduction of water/increase in steam in the base etc etc for 3-4 minutes!!!!!!
> 
> I was led to believe (by knowledgeable people in a coffee emporium) the 3-4 minutes was the whole of the cooking process. Because although the brew might not flow for three and a half minutes the coffee is heated and wetted prior to that by the vapour which precedes the actual flow.


E.g. My 2 cup Bialetti flows for ~70seconds to produce ~80g of finished coffee at a nominal extraction. I have no interest in how long it takes from being placed on the hob, as that can vary. Your time may be different, but when you get good cups, you will know what it is. How is your coffee tasting? We're aiming to make a tasty drink, not entering a time trial


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## aka_pseudonym (Aug 1, 2016)

caramel said:


> 3-4 minutes sounds about right for my 4 cup brikka from start to finish using cold water.
> 
> Are you putting in the right amount of water? The top part should have a marker, you fill to that line and pour it in the bottom part.


My Bialetti has a marker line inside the base just below the valve - that's where I fill to. Sort of makes sense if your 4 cup is 3-4 mins that a 6 cup would take longer. Half as much again would be 4.5-6 mins which is about what mine takes. Interesting.


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## Bogwoppit (Sep 26, 2013)

My 3cup takes about 4mins start to finish (starting cold), and my 6cup takes about 7.5mins. This is on the little setting on my front right gas ring, with the dial at about 5O'Clock where to gas hisses just that little bit more. Not very technical I know, but works for me and gives me repeatable and enjoyable results.


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## aka_pseudonym (Aug 1, 2016)

MWJB said:


> E.g. My 2 cup Bialetti flows for ~70seconds to produce ~80g of finished coffee at a nominal extraction. I have no interest in how long it takes from being placed on the hob, as that can vary. Your time may be different, but when you get good cups, you will know what it is. How is your coffee tasting? We're aiming to make a tasty drink, not entering a time trial





MWJB said:


> It's the coffee olympics don't you know! I'm testing coffees - currently Segafredo's Allora Moka and Espresso Moka because both have a bit of Robusta in them and my source of beans is all varieties 100% Arabica. So I'm trying to keep the brewing process constant so it doesn't influence the swingometer. I've only been Moka-ing for about a month and so far haven't matched my results from a Hario Syphon - but that took a six months to master! Chemex will be next. (Retired with time [trial?] on my hands.)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

'Tasty' is the only constant that matters  Everything else is irrelevant if it ends up any other way.


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## aka_pseudonym (Aug 1, 2016)

Bogwoppit said:


> My 3cup takes about 4mins start to finish (starting cold), and my 6cup takes about 7.5mins. This is on the little setting on my front right gas ring, with the dial at about 5O'Clock where to gas hisses just that little bit more. Not very technical I know, but works for me and gives me repeatable and enjoyable results.


3 cup 4 mins, 6 cup 7.5 mins. Sounds sensible if it's slightly less than double the time for double the water. Should be made into an equation: energy in (BTUs) = water into steam (2H2O > 2H2+O2) = coffee!!! So all the "experts" who pontificate about how it absolutely mustn't ever take more than four minutes can be classified alongside bovine projectile defecation?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Yes, along with your dried cereal stalk mannequin example that such "experts" exist


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## aka_pseudonym (Aug 1, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Yes, along with your dried cereal stalk mannequin example that such "experts" exist


That's way too cryptic for me - I thought the Wicker Man only drunk a dram. Times crossword?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent. (Wikipedia)

Steam is still H2O, just in vapour phase - you won't break the molecular bonds and get hydrogen and oxygen in a Moka pot. If you do, you'd better hope there are no naked flames underneath ... you want a Rocket, not an actual rocket! But yeah a given mass of liquid water will require a specific amount of heat energy to boil and become vapour. Or to increase its temperature by a set amount. So the more liquid, for a given heat input, the time will be longer.

I think Mark's point is it's easier to just make it, drink it and decide how long gives the best results, than look for exact formulae or 'expert' answers on the web. Time to raise temp will depend on the calorific value of the gas, efficiency of heat transfer, required rise in temp and volume of liquid. Taste will depend on the beans themselves (quality, quantity etc) and the composition of the water and the extraction. Extraction will depend on both the composition and temperature of the water, and also the level of grind. Any 'expert' who says it will always taste best after 4 min is more of an 'ex spurt' ("an 'ex' is a has been and a 'spurt' is a drip under pressure" as the saying goes).

I can't speak for the Italians but the Spanish half of the family don't preheat the water. Then again the coffee I've had has not been that great either so maybe they don't know how to do it either! Pretty sure it takes more than 4 minutes for the 6 cup one though.


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## aka_pseudonym (Aug 1, 2016)

Thank you hotmetal - I live and learn. Shame about the molecular bonds though, I could have had a fuel cell in the kitchen.

I've never been to Spain but I have been to Italy a lot over many decades and they don't seem to have the same fascination for home espresso machines despite having invented them. In the southern half anyway - real Italy. A coffee shop seems to be a coffee bar, possibly with a nominal table and two chairs, where they enter, pay their euro, drink 30/60ml of espresso standing, and have departed in under two minutes. A place for a quick fix, not socialising. Coffee at home is much more of a long drink affair made on a stove. Just my limited observations anyway. Obviously different from Spain though as they do know how to do it and it is great!


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