# Newbie Qs



## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Hi all,

I recently bought my first espresso machine (dualit) because it was on special offer (and matched my toaster!). It only lasted a week though before it stopped producing steam and I had to take it back. In that week I've become completely hooked! I decided not to get the same model again in case of reliability issues, and after reading hundreds of reviews it looks like the Gaggia classic would be the best option in my price range. I just have a few questions that I haven't been able to find definitive answers for, so I'm hoping somebody here can help me...

The general consensus seems to be that to pull the perfect shot, the classic needs to heat up for 20-30 mins. This is fine for me at weekends etc. but definitely not before work. The Dualit seemed to work fine (to my novice palate!) after just 30-40 seconds warm up. Is it possible to make an 'acceptable' espresso in a shorter time with the Gaggia classic or is the 20 min warm up essential?

Amazon are currently selling the Classic for £212 which is twice as much as the Dualit, so I'm trying to decide whether to go for this, or save a bit of money by going second hand - I wondered if there are any pros and cons in terms of different versions? The new Amazon one is model RI8161 whereas a lot of the ones on ebay seem to be 14101. I believe the solenoids aren't as reliable on newer (post 2010) models, but I don't know if this is enough of a reason to go for a 3 year old machine, or if the model numbers are even any use here?! Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Sorry for the long and rambling first post!


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Welcome to Coffee Forums UK.

Try a timer plug. Warm up essential.


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Thanks. I do have a couple of timer plugs spare actually. So I'm guessing it's the thermoblock that enables the quick espresso? Is there a downside to the thermoblock machines? Please tell me there is because I'd practically settled on the gaggia!


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

You could theoretically make an espresso on the Classic after a couple of minutes warm up but you wouldn't be getting the best out of it. All the pipes and group head would be cold so that hot water in your boiler would cool on the way to the coffee and wouldn't extract as well. Whether you notice it depends on you.

I run mine on a timer in the week. It comes on about 20-40 mins before I get to it.

There's no reason not to get a 2nd hand classic that's been looked after. Even if it's not they don't take much to get them up to scratch. A good descale and back flush etc. They last for years and years (unlike you cheapy plastic Dualit's etc)

Don't forget about grinders. If you choose to move away from the pressurised basket (which everyone does) then you'll need a good grinder £130+ to be able to achieve a good shot. Grinder is almost more important than the machine itself.


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Thanks. So at least I can potentially make an emergency espresso without the long warm up time if needs be! I doubt I'd notice the difference at the moment to be honest. I'll keep an eye out for a second hand one because £212 seems a bit steep. I'm sure it's worth it really, but I've read so many reviews now from people who managed to get it cheaper, that I'd feel a bit ripped off!

The grinder is something I'm really struggling to get my head around and I think I'm going to have to learn from my mistake on! When I got the dualit, I read up on grinders and heard that I should really be spending more on the grinder and couldn't really justify it to myself so I ended up buying a cheap delonghi burr grinder. Seems really good to me (I can sense you all shaking your heads right now!). I do like the look of the mc2 though so once I've got my classic and had a bit more practice with it I might feel the need to upgrade to that.


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## xtrashot7 (Oct 4, 2012)

skenno said:


> Thanks. So at least I can potentially make an emergency espresso without the long warm up time if needs be! I doubt I'd notice the difference at the moment to be honest. I'll keep an eye out for a second hand one because £212 seems a bit steep. I'm sure it's worth it really, but I've read so many reviews now from people who managed to get it cheaper, that I'd feel a bit ripped off!
> 
> The grinder is something I'm really struggling to get my head around and I think I'm going to have to learn from my mistake on! When I got the dualit, I read up on grinders and heard that I should really be spending more on the grinder and couldn't really justify it to myself so I ended up buying a cheap delonghi burr grinder. Seems really good to me (I can sense you all shaking your heads right now!). I do like the look of the mc2 though so once I've got my classic and had a bit more practice with it I might feel the need to upgrade to that.


Try out a porlex hand grinder. £30 from coffeehit. Quick reliable turnaround. Awaiting beans for mine now but everyone raves about these grinders. Other than that its an MC2 for around £130 ish.

Happy brewing.

Craig.


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

I did nearly buy a porlex or hario (?) Hand grinder instead of the delonghi but I was put off by the time.needed to get an espresso grind! Especially if I have guests! Might be a good stepping stone before the mc2 though if/when I find the delonghi isn't. Doing the job. (Apologies for any spelling/grammatical errors - I'm typing this on my phone and can't see what I'm typing!).


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I can almost guarantee the Delonghi won't be good enough. It simply won't grind fine enough. This is why Philips started including a pressurised basket & "perfect crema device" with their Classics. Too many people were buying the Classic and then discovering they couldn't actually make espresso with it. Or good espresso at any rate. The Classic really is a great machine but it does take some learning how to use. Don't be thinking you'll be making killer espresso from day one. Although saying that, you will probably think it's great but it will keep getting better and better as you improve your technique and you'll surprise yourself.

Just read through a few of the "I need a new coffee machine" threads on here. Everyone starts off saying they don't think they need a good grinder then eventually they end up spending hundreds of pounds of a decent one. They're just so important.


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

I'll get saving for the grinder then! Well, I will after I've found a Haggis classic.anyway!


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Hmmm, autocorrect there! Gaggia not Haggis!


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## xtrashot7 (Oct 4, 2012)

Made me hungry as well as thirsty


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I guess it's one of those things. Until you taste for yourself the difference it makes you just can't accept it can be worth it. You think it's just geeks becoming obsessed with more expensive toys. But it really really does. Everyone goes through it. Then you catch a nasty bout of upgraditis and the sky's the limit


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Yeh, I'm a sucker for gadgets, so I'm being unusually restrained here. Now, where's my Haggis frother?!


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I just had Haggis for me tea tonight


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## Coffeebeing (Oct 17, 2012)

skenno said:


> Hmmm, autocorrect there! Gaggia not Haggis!


Gaggia Haggis - priceless! What price Scottish independence?


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Ok, so it looks like I'll soon be a gaggia classic owner so I've ordered a few bits and pieces for it..

Silvia steam wand

Milk jug

Shot glasses

Haggis (got hungry)

Group head brush

Water filter

Puly baby descaler

Next up will probably be..

Tamper (it comes with the plastic one)

Tamper mat

Knock box

And then eventually a better grinder.

Anything else I need?!


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

You need to send all that stuff back and get a grinder instead. Then over time you can buy all the little accessories that are nice to haves but not vital like a good grinder.

Oh well, too late now. Just don't get too frustrated with your new machine if you're not getting excellent shots from it right away. Remember it takes practice and good accessories.

You might want a blanking plate for your portafiler and come PulyCaff back flushing cleaner too so you can black flush it every couple of weeks. It's surprising what a difference it makes and how much gunk it cleans out.


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Going to give it a few weeks with the delonghi grinder hopefully. Is happydonkey the cheapest place to get an mc2 (£136.80)?


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

It seems to be where everyone on here gets theirs so I guess so.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

skenno said:


> Is happydonkey the cheapest place to get an mc2 (£136.80)?


I haven't found a cheaper supplier yet. Normally comes with some beans to help dial in with as well.


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

I've just put everything I need into the cart on happydonkey. Tempted to just buy it now, but I'm going to resist! Maybe santa will buy it all for me?!


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

The Gaggia has landed!

So far I'm about 6 cups in, and eventually made something close to drinkable on the last one by switching from my Delonghi grinder to a pack of Taylors preground espresso that's been open in the fridge for 3 weeks! Why did nobody tell me to get a decent grinder?!


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## xtrashot7 (Oct 4, 2012)

Fab. Once you get some freshly roasted beans it will be another level again. I'm grinding my own beans from a recent 'has beans' order.

Out of this world.

I'm currently in the m6. Just bought my old faithful which is a costa coffee Americano. It's crap! I'm now enlightened.

Glad your up there on cloud nine. Ill prob have brew with you cos I'm there too.


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

I do have a few freshly roasted beans left from a friend who's about to start a local roasting company. I've been having them in a cafetiere though. Don't want to waste them on my amateur espresso attempts so I'm quickly grinding my way through a bag of Starbucks espresso blend from Costco!


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

skenno said:


> Why did nobody tell me to get a decent grinder?!


Hahaha!


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

I'm not giving up on the delonghi yet though. I WILL* make some decent coffee with it before I upgrade!

*probably won't.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

There's no reason why it shouldn't work with the pressurised basket with "perfect crama" widget in. It won't be great but it'll be ok probably.


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Ah, I don't have the widget. Where does it fit in? I'll see if I can buy a spare.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

That was funny, I just did a google image search for a diagram I remember seeing showing the widget and what did it bring up?! Another post of mine on here showing the diagram I was thinking of. Haha!










http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?7034-Grinder-amp-Basket


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Thanks, would I also need a new filter basket? Mine has lots of holes spread across the bottom. My dualit one (which I think mist have been pressurised) had the holes on the inside, but then only one small hole on the bottom - do I need something like this to work with the widget?


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

The pressurised basket has just one hole in the middle and works in conjunction with the "perfect crema" device which fits in the portafilter handle as you can see in the diagram. It certainly won't be the answer to all you problems. What it does is allow the pressure to build up in the basket before the water comes through thus kind of extracting an espresso from the coffee. This will be nothing like a properly extracted espresso where the coffee puck has formed the pressurising seal itself. It is however a way you can get started with the machine out of the box. Some people might be happy with this but the machine has so much more to offer.

You'll probably find some combos of basket and crema device on ebay as most people just bin them as soon as they get the classic (that should tell you something right there. Haha!)


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Cheapest I can find the basket for (without the widget) is £22 - I could buy a tamper for that. I think I'll just keep practicing!


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

You might be right there. Maybe they're rare because folks just chuck them in the bin. Haha! Honestly, you don't really want one. Just get the credit card out and get an MC2. You'll not regret it


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Might put a wanted ad up for them! Have to admit the MC2 is looking better and better, but before I take the plunge, I'd like to make sure I am actually physically capable of pulling a halfway decent shot! If I remove the inconsistency of my beans and grinder, and just use preground for now. Should I be able to make something reasonably nice by getting my dosing/tamping technique right or might the preground stuff be affecting it too? Just trying to work out a baseline to see how I'm affecting the end result (which is currently horrible, horrible coffee!).


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

The pre-grond is absolutely affecting it. Just go into your local coffee shop and ask them if you can feel what comes out of their grinder. Rub it between your fingers. You'll feel instantly that it feels nothing like you average pre-ground coffee which feels more like tea leaves between your fingers. Probably the most important part about getting a good espresso out of any machine is the coffee itself forming the exact right resistance to the water. This causes all those lovely oils to be extracted correctly. Anything other than a correct grind and good distribution/tamp will not be able to replicate this. Also, you just not getting fresh coffee when it's pre-ground. There are arguments for using it within minutes of grinding or it's already losing it's flavour. Imagine how long ago it was that your pre-ground bag was done???


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## huw (Sep 13, 2012)

A good grinder makes more difference to the quality of the espresso (assuming good quality, freshly roasted beans) than anything else. Better temperature control with a PID, fancy filter baskets etc are all things to play with after you've got a grinder that produces consistent ground coffee. I think the MC-2 is rated so highly on here as it's the only sub £150 grinder that will make acceptable espresso. I managed ok for years with a modified Gaggia MM but I'd never recommend buying one as it's noisy, inconsistent (without changing the grind every so often you'd get a choker or a gusher) and produces loads of static. When I bought a Macap M2 the same coffee ground with the new grinder produced shots that were as good as I've ever tasted. That's a grinder that cost more than my espresso machine though! Unfortunately until you taste the difference a proper grinder makes it's hard to see why spending so much on one is justified.


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

I've got some taylors preground for espresso machines but it's been open for a few weeks now. I've tried matching the grind of it and then taking it from there. Seems like I need to be somewhere in between 2 and 3 clicks on my grinder though! I'll persevere with it tomorrow and see if I can improve it with tamping. Might switch from the Costco beans to the fresher ones too -was planning to wait til I'd mastered the machine, but that could be some time!

A new grinder is definitely next on the shopping list - probably the mc2, but I'm trying hard not to buy it right now so my wife doesn't kill me! She doesn't drink coffee so there's nothing in it for her anyway!


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## xtrashot7 (Oct 4, 2012)

If its a porlex grinder that you have then its defo 3 clicks from fully tight. It's the perfect grind in my humble opinion. Works out great. Coffee drips thru the filter v slowly. Big crema- gorgeous end result but its only since I got my freshly roasted beans.

My Taylor's and Asda xtra special beans and also Lavazza ground were all useless. All in the bin never to be looked at again.


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

I've got a delonghi kg79. I'll have a look at the porlex grinders though. Should have just got one to begin with!


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

skenno said:


> I've got some taylors preground for espresso machines but it's been open for a few weeks now. I've tried matching the grind of it and then taking it from there.


No no no!. I didn't say buy some "espresso" ground super market coffee. I said go to a coffee shop and ask f you can feel their grind. The last thing a big commercial roaster like Taylors wants to do is choke peoples machines. The correct grind is basically just on the cusp of chocking the machine. It's almost impossible to judge for someone else as so many factors affect it. Machine, beans, age, humidity etc etc. They'll always be erring on the side of caution and assuming most people will have pressurised baskets.


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Ah, I thought you were talking about standard pre ground coffee rather than espresso grind. I bought the taylors before I got my grinder. It did seem to be about the right grind level to produce a double shot in 25 seconds but doesn't taste great. I've been using about 18g for a double but I might try reducing to 14g with a finer grind.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I'd keep it up there around 18g for a double (about 32g of coffee out) if I were you but that's just personal taste.

You might find the Taylors tastes bad because it was probably roasted 3 months ago, then ground, then bagged, then sat on a shelf for 2 months, then you bought it, then you opened it and left it for 3 weeks then tried to make espresso out of it. Imagine taking any other type of fresh product on a journey like that. Replace coffee with an apple for example and I don't think you'd try and eat it after all that. Coffee is fresh and needs to be consumed within a time frame more like, roast, wait a week, grind minutes before drink being made, enjoy.


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## MartinB (May 8, 2011)

^^Amen to that!


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

I'll crack open the fresher beans tonightthen and see how I get on. I've descaled, backflushed and cleaned the machine this morning so it's just down to me and the grinder!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Just check out ebay for your second hand gaggia, £100 will secure a really good 3 year old one. perhaps consider the gaggia mdf grinder second hand as well!


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## skenno (Oct 14, 2012)

Thanks. I bought a refurbished classic from Mark (gaggiamanualservice) on here in the end.


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