# Issues with channelling, Mazzer Royal/Verona/VST



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I'm looking for some help/advice with some issues that I'm having with my setup which is currently a Quick Mill Verona and a Mazzer Royal. I really noticed the problem when I got my VST 18g basket which is pretty unforgiving!

I've been having a lot of issues with channelling and worm holes in the puck since I got it and had previously put it down to poor technique and although I've not ruled this out completely I've been researching other possibilities as well.

So as every poor workman does I started looking at my tools to try and find something to blame, I stripped the royal down and gave it a good clean and removed loads of gunk from under the burrs just in case that could be affecting the grind. I put it all back together and it certainly seems to be grinding the same weight of beans in a shorter time however the problem still seemed to persist.

I then turned to distribution, I tried WDT various chutes on the royal and pretty much everything I could think of to try and even up the distribution of grinds in the basket. I can't believe that not once did I get it right, however a nice even shot on the bottomless just wasn't happening for me.

I then turned my attention to the Verona. Looking at the puck after brewing I noticed that the top surface looked like a storm had taken place on it, it was disturbed and it looked almost like it had been swirled around.

I started looking at the shower head, diffuser and water flow rate. I noticed that when I was running water through without the PF attached that the flow seemed pretty fast when I compared to videos of other e61 machines on Youtube, I measured the rate and it seems to push about 100ml in 10 seconds. I've been searching and can't find an official figure but from the posts that do exist it seems pretty fast. I then started looking at the pattern/dispersion from the shower screen and noticed that it varied quite a bit. When everything was dry the shower screen produced a pretty even stead flow of water. When wet the water seemed to pull into the centre of the screen and formed a single stream.

To try and encourage a more even flow I decided to tighten up the portafilter handle in the group (5pm instead of 6pm) and this looked like it solved the issue, the pour was clean and even with no drama that I could see. I checked the puck and to top looked uniform as I'd expect to see. I've been using this method for most of the day and getting much better results.

I decided to see if I could work out if this was fixable without "over" tightening the portafilter so I removed the shower screen to check out the diffuser. I noticed that water doesn't really seem to evenly flow from it (I'll upload a video of this shortly) however I don't have anything to compare it against. The flow also seems to pull into the centre instead of the shower type dispersion that I'd expect. I backflush regularly both with and without chemicals and tried this again, things didn't seem to improve matters at all. I wanted to remove the diffuser just to check that it was not blocked but didn't have a suitable tool to get it out and didn't want to damage it.

So I guess the good news is that I have a workaround in place that at least allows me to brew good espresso but if anyone has any advice on how I might start to tackle these issues then I would love to hear them.

So far on my list I have

1. Pick up an IMS shower screen and see if that helps with dispersion

2. Pick up a thinner gasket for the grouphead

3. Clean and re-seat the diffuser

4. Look at replacing the gicleur with a smaller one to restrict water flow

5. Borrow a grinder to test that nothings wrong there

6. Take my grinder to test with someone elses machine

7. Take me to someone else gear to see if it's human error









Thanks for listening.

Spence


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Here is the video with the shower screen removed, yes it needs a good clean


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Use a single spout on the pf...guaranteed to remove all channeling problems!

To further qualify.......what the eye does not see, the heart does not miss


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Use a single spout on the pf...guaranteed to remove all channeling problems!
> 
> To further qualify.......what the eye does not see, the heart does not miss


Is this to say, if your shot tastes ok, stop fretting?

Only surely the bottomless portafilter is there to show you your shot could be better if the distribution was perfect?


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Bring the royal to mine dial both in on my expo . If no issues then look at your machine again , I'll bring my manometer over


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

What I am saying, is if your eye could not see the channeling by using a bottomless PF, would you palate be able to detect it or is this just more coffee bollocks? Oh, look at the channeling...it must taste awful as well!

How many top cafes and the likes use bottomless, other than perhaps for checking. Who in their right mind uses one every time. No one can be 100% consistent!


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Use a single spout on the pf...guaranteed to remove all channeling problems!
> 
> To further qualify.......what the eye does not see, the heart does not miss


Thanks for the advice! I agree and disagree at the same time. I agree that I might be letting my eyes overrule the taste of my coffee but I think that because I'm a relative newcomer to home espresso that I want to make sure that I'm getting the full potential out of my equipment and technique. I might take your advice and see where I end up.

I think that the bottomless came from visiting my local bar and watching the staff make espresso there, they brew bottomless and pretty much every poor is perfect no matter which one of them makes it. It just got me thinking that maybe I could do that









Cheers

Spence


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Bring the royal to mine dial both in on my expo . If no issues then look at your machine again , I'll bring my manometer over


Cheers Gary, if not only to completely rule them out of the equation.

Spence


----------



## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

Are you using medium or light roasted beans?


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

rodabod said:


> Are you using medium or light roasted beans?


I'm currently using dark roasted beans but see the issue on lighter roasts too.

Coffeechap recommended trying to nutate as part of my prep, I've been playing this morning and it is certainly looking better.

Cheers

Spence


----------



## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

The VST baskets are fussy too; it may not spray with a normal basket. The other thing to try is grinding a notch finer and tamping more lightly.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Xpenno said:


> Cheers Gary, if not only to completely rule them out of the equation.
> 
> Spence


Let me know when .....


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/412876223283355649
Nowt wrong with the grinder. Both had similar a grind at the same distance from 'zero'


----------



## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

Out of interest, where does your grinder typically operate with respect to "zero"? Mine is often one stop finer, or thereabouts.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

1.5 - 1.75 inches away from true zero (for 18g or 20g VST)


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/412876223283355649
> Nowt wrong with the grinder. Both had similar a grind at the same distance from 'zero'


Thanks for your help Gary, always appreciated!

So Gary pointed out some ways that I could improve my pre-tamp prep. I managed to pull some decent shots on Brewtus using my grinder and Gary's really helpful tips.

Since I would quite like to sleep tonight I had to limit my testing, however I managed to pull some pretty decent shots using the Verona tonight and I'm hoping that my troubles are behind me and it's just a matter of improving my technique. Only time will tell









Thanks for all of your help so far.

Spence


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Good to hear spence


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Good to hear spence


I tried nutation as well, this certainly helped but it turns out that I was missing some of the fundamentals before that. It's so nice to have the luxury of someone looking at what you doing.

I'm still going to take a Convex/Trap Torr when you get some in stock though


----------



## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

@Xpenno what solved it for you back then? I recently switched to a VST basket and my pours are all over the place.. literally.


----------



## smorgo (Nov 22, 2015)

bronc said:


> @Xpenno what solved it for you back then? I recently switched to a VST basket and my pours are all over the place.. literally.


I think it must be down to @garydyke1! I switched to a VST basket and bottomless portafilter a couple of days ago and have had no troubles at all, so far. But coincidentally, Gary sorted out my distribution and tamping technique on Monday.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

bronc said:


> @Xpenno what solved it for you back then? I recently switched to a VST basket and my pours are all over the place.. literally.


Spence is away at the moment ( rocking in the USA ) so you might have to wait for a reply.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Spence is away at the moment ( rocking in the USA ) so you might have to wait for a reply.


I think his answer will be along the lines of - perfect your distribution and do a flat level tamp ( we know use flat base tampers )

VST need a finer grind , which in turn , means great prep ...


----------



## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

Thanks. I'll see if switching back to my Espresso Parts HQ basket solves my issues. I got a new tamper the same time I got the VST so maybe it's not the basket..


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

bronc said:


> @Xpenno what solved it for you back then? I recently switched to a VST basket and my pours are all over the place.. literally.


Distribution. Have you tried this?

http://www.baristahustle.com/how-to-distribute-by-tapping/

I imagine that my distribution was shocking back then based on what I've learned using the EK43 :S

Schnozola or similar will help. Pre-infusion will also help if that's an option to you. Ensure you have enough headroom in the basket.


----------



## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

That's pretty much what I'm doing (mostly hand taps). The grinds look to be even in the basket but I think my tamping with my new flat Torr might not be very great.. The visual cues I'm getting is that the pours from the basket don't join into one stream (I think it's a dead spot in the middle of the basket) and that I have at least one spritzer that makes a mess. In terms of taste there is some bitterness that ruins even otherwise tasty shots..


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I got donut pours on the Royal with the Brewtus, think it was a headroom issue


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

How are you distributing? When I dosed straight into the pf from the Royal the pours looked horrific.

I started dosing into a child's cup which was the same size at the lip as the VST. Stirred the grinds, put the pf on top, flipped it. Perfect pours.

Now I have a Lyn Weber blind shaker which is basically an expensive version of the same thing, but the idea is the same.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> I got donut pours on the Royal with the Brewtus, think it was a headroom issue


Yup. I used to get this with the sj. Under dosing the basket 1g to increase headroom fixed it.


----------



## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

I'm underdosing my VST by 1g so the headroom shouldn't be an issue. I'll try grinding in a cup, stirring and then transfering to the basket. I try to keep my workflow as simple as possible but if that helps.. I have a SJ by the way.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

One other thing, not sure how hard you tamp buy try going harder.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

What's the water debit of your machine? I.e. how much water does it deliver in 30s without a portafilter?


----------



## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> What's the water debit of your machine? I.e. how much water does it deliver in 30s without a portafilter?


220ml but no water came out the first 2-3 seconds (machine was cold).


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

bronc said:


> 220ml but no water came out the first 2-3 seconds (machine was cold).


Need to measure when full temp and also after your usual flushing routine.


----------



## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

What output should I be getting if everything is okay?


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

bronc said:


> What output should I be getting if everything is okay?


It's not a matter of ok or not, it might be a factor. The lower-end of 180ml to 225ml in 30s seems to be the current sweet spot for speciality.


----------



## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

First shot this morning looked and tasted pretty bad. A lot of channeling with 3-4 pours and some spritzers; taste-wise: bitterness and a lack of any complex flavor. Decided to try my EP HQ basket with the bottomless filter and voila, good looking extraction and better tasting shot (more flavor, still some bitterness). I'm using Foundry's Bokasso by the way.

My VST basket says 17g which AFAIK was a mistake at the factory but can someone please weigh their 18g VST basket for me? Want to be sure that I have the correct size.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

bronc said:


> First shot this morning looked and tasted pretty bad. A lot of channeling with 3-4 pours and some spritzers; taste-wise: bitterness and a lack of any complex flavor. Decided to try my EP HQ basket with the bottomless filter and voila, good looking extraction and better tasting shot (more flavor, still some bitterness). I'm using Foundry's Bokasso by the way.
> 
> My VST basket says 17g which AFAIK was a mistake at the factory but can someone please weigh their 18g VST basket for me? Want to be sure that I have the correct size.












33.8g

I have a Profitec t64 grinder, which also has a very similar design to a Juper Jolly in the sense of an anti-static grid and a funnel instead of a chute. I don't single dose - The retention is about 5g, so I just purge and then dose.

If I dose directly into the PF, a tap to collapse the grinds and tamp, I usually get two streams and some blacks pots. The streams combine at around 20s into the shot.

If I stir the grinds before collapsing the grinds, then I have a good looking pour.

Regardless of the methodology used, I don't get any spritzers or channeling.

Most importantly, I cannot taste the difference if I stir the grinds or not.

If, however, I removed the anti-static grid from the grinder, then I have some considerable static and get early blonding, channeling and spritzers.


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Have you checked your extraction pressure? Could be you're grinding too fine to try and slow a shot down and getting over extraction and channeling. Could be you're grinding too fine and the channeling makes the shot run quicker.


----------



## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

The weight of my basket is almost the same so it's not that. I might try spritzing some water on the beans to prevent static as I don't have the screen.

Downdosing to 16g didn't help. Next thing to try is grinding in a cup and stirring before dosing in the portafilter. I don't expect it to make a huge difference because the SJ has a doser which should get rid of any clumping. Then again, it might be a fines/boulders kind of thing as I'm single dosing the SJ. Oh well, if that doesn't help I'll go back to my EP basket for good..

@Rob1 pressure is at 10 bars. Not ideal but the Bezzera's OPV makes a horrible sound when the OPV is adjusted to 9 bars. I've found a replacement part but will receive it in a few weeks time. I get an uneven extraction both when the shot time is 25 sec and when it's 35-40 sec so I don't think it's a matter of too fine/too coarse.


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

What weights are you getting in those times?


----------



## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

1:2 ratio (in : out) in terms of weight.

Here is a video of the first shot this morning. I believe it was 17g in, 36g out (hard to measure when you're filming). I ground finer for the next one but it didn't look much better except it was slower


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Looks like distribution and tamping is off.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Rob1 said:


> Looks like distribution and tamping is off.


Agreed. @bronc: That pull looks terrible. :-( My suggestion is that you start with WDT and go from there. Try eliminating the variables one by one. I would even go as far as putting the anti-static screen back and not single dose.

Good luck.

Regarding the correct pump pressure, check this video out from Mr. Luca Bezzera himself. Start from 1 min into the video:


----------



## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

Yes, definitely a distribution issue. I tried grinding in my keepcup, stirring and then dosing in the basket and the pour looks great. Almost all of the bitterness is gone and I can better taste the flavors which were masked by it. It also seems that there is some static as the grounds stick to the walls of the cup. Next thing to try is spraying some water on the beans before throwing them in the SJ.

As for the pressure, there is some debate on his statement and what he actually meant. 10-11 bars pressure at the OPV often results to 9bar at the coffee puck so maybe that's what he is referring to.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

@bronc are you single dosing the sj? Could it be that? Could it be old burrs?


----------



## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

@Xpenno maybe it's the single dosing but I have no way of knowing as I don't have a hopper. What is more interesting is that it happens only with the VST basket. The EP one is also advertised as being precise but the VST one requires a finer grind - 15g in 30g out in the EP one takes about the same time to extract as 17g in 34g out in the VST without changing the grind setting. The burrs have only 20-30 kilos on them so they should be in perfect condition.

I tried adding a few drops of water but that doesn't help.. Not sure if ditching the VST basket won't be the best thing to do right now.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

bronc said:


> @Xpenno maybe it's the single dosing but I have no way of knowing as I don't have a hopper. What is more interesting is that it happens only with the VST basket. The EP one is also advertised as being precise but the VST one requires a finer grind - 15g in 30g out in the EP one takes about the same time to extract as 17g in 34g out in the VST without changing the grind setting. The burrs have only 20-30 kilos on them so they should be in perfect condition.
> 
> I tried adding a few drops of water but that doesn't help.. Not sure if ditching the VST basket won't be the best thing to do right now.


The word precision doesn't say anything about what the basket does, it would indicate that each basket was made to tight tolerances. The vst baskets are specifically designed to extract as fully and evenly as possible across the puck. Many other baskets have smaller/fewer holes which helps make extractions look nicer but they may not be as even. If your pour post shaking was good then it sounds like wdt or similar could be the answer.

If not then use your other basket and enjoy the coffee you make with it


----------



## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

I think I've opened a can of worms with the VST basket







I'll look into WDT and the like. It's such moments that I wish I had a refractometer.


----------



## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm receiving my first VST in the week so will be interesting to see how it performs with my Verona and Mythos. Hope I don't get the same results as yourself. Been wanting to try VST for a while.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Jason1wood said:


> I'm receiving my first VST in the week so will be interesting to see how it performs with my Verona and Mythos. Hope I don't get the same results as yourself. Been wanting to try VST for a while.


Advice - Rate the taste in the cup > not the " is it espresso porn "


----------



## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

I meant the spritzing he's been getting.

I will ignore the porn side of it, and concentrate on the taste, just don't want squirts of coffee all over my machine and bench.


----------



## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

I'm quite sure there is a substantial difference in the cup between shots similar to the one I posted a few comments above and ones that extract normally. The reason I started using the naked portafilter is that shots didn't taste good at all.

@Jason1wood you should be fine with that Mythos of yours. I believe the issues I'm having have to do with single dosing my SJ. Please report back when you have a chance to try the VST.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

@bronc comment was about your extraction per se . That needs sorting for sure

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

To report back, I've had great success with grinding in a milk jug, shaking/stirring and then using an improvised funnel (cut off a small yogurt pot) to dose. No channeling, no undesirable bitterness and much wow taste







Maybe a side effect of single dosing, maybe bad distribution from the doser.. who knows.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

bronc said:


> To report back, I've had great success with grinding in a milk jug, shaking/stirring and then using an improvised funnel (cut off a small yogurt pot) to dose. No channeling, no undesirable bitterness and much wow taste
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent! If you could, would it be possible to send us a video to see the improvement?


----------



## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

pessutojr said:


> Excellent! If you could, would it be possible to send us a video to see the improvement?







Not sure what happened towards the end to be honest.. Any clue?

17g in, 35g out. Taste-wise good and balanced, still getting the grapefruit but not as strong as yesterday's shots. The beans are about 3 weeks old now, though.


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

bronc said:


> Next thing to try is grinding in a cup and stirring before dosing in the portafilter. I don't expect it to make a huge difference because the SJ has a doser which should get rid of any clumping.


It should make all the difference. This is totally necessary in my opinion and is what I do on the Royal. If I dose straight into the basket from the doser the shot channels and spritzes everywhere.

Dose into cup, vigorous stir, into PF, perfect central pour.


----------



## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

risky said:


> It should make all the difference. This is totally necessary in my opinion and is what I do on the Royal. If I dose straight into the basket from the doser the shot channels and spritzes everywhere.
> 
> Dose into cup, vigorous stir, into PF, perfect central pour.


Agree. I had the same experience when I switched to the cup method.

Strange it's the same with the Royal as I've seen @jeebsy and @garydyke1 dosing straight into the portafilter and getting good looking extractions.


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

bronc said:


> Agree. I had the same experience when I switched to the cup method.
> 
> Strange it's the same with the Royal as I've seen @jeebsy and @garydyke1 dosing straight into the portafilter and getting good looking extractions.


Guessing age of the burrs may have something to do with it. But shots straight from my doser are disastrous.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

risky said:


> Guessing age of the burrs may have something to do with it. But shots straight from my doser are disastrous.


Rapid thwacking is needed


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Rapid thwacking is needed


I remember those days, you had it nailed down!!!


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Xpenno said:


> I remember those days, you had it nailed down!!!


Replaced by a flour sifter


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

I have been using a small whisk to stir the grounds up in the basket , which results in good central pours , although pretty pours through the naked don't always mean the greatest result in the cup .


----------

