# Dubious practices?



## ObsidianSage (Jan 30, 2012)

This could be my ignorance, but I spotted something a bit odd going on when I popped into Nero's for a quick fix this morning.

The barista was filling his grinder (to the brim) from a sack of beans. The doser was already 3/4 full, but he ground some more then (the odd bit) he took the top off the doser compartment, held it underneath and dispensed about 3 or 4 doses on to it. He then took these grinds and tipped them back in the top of the doser. He repeated the process 2 more times, effectively moving the recently ground coffee to the bottom of the doser.

Maybe he was part way through testing and adjusting the grind, but I would have thought he should have dumped all the old coffee out of the doser and started again? All I know, is he looked very sheepish when he saw that I had been watching him.

Can you knowledgable bunch tell me what you think was going on here?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Prioritising. Reduction of waste over provision of taste.

Neros are terrible.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Note to self, avoid Neros even more than I already did.


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## ObsidianSage (Jan 30, 2012)

I'm not sure why they have to have they're doser so full. The coffee was average anyway. I'm already getting better tasting stuff from my Picinno. Once I've found the right keep cup, the days of visiting the big chains are likely to be numbered.

Dan

Sent from my Galaxy S smartphone.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

The doser is full because of more flawed prioritisation. Quick service. More haste, less taste.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I bet the portafilters are not even locked in to keep hot, probably lying on the drip tray and left cold & wet prior to adding (stale) coffee. yuk


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Frankly, how many people in Nero will be drinking espresso? My guess is that the majority of drinks purchased are going to be hot milk with a bit of coffee in it, in which case people really aren't going to notice. The throughput of coffee is likely to be such that the doser in question will be empty within minutes rather than hours.

If its good espresso you want, you'll not find it in any of the chains. Otherwise it's a bit of a non-issue, bit like going to McDonalds and complaining that your food is deep-fried muck.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I don't disagree, but there is a difference. McDonalds doesn't claim to be anything other than fast food, and customers aren't deluded in aby way. Whereas coffee chains make huge claims of selling the best coffee on the market, and customers believe it. They try it, it tastes bitter and nasty (even with a 10:1 milk ratio) and they either add tons of sugar or say "hmm, guess I don't like coffee much". Hence we aren't a nation of coffee drinkers. We can say nothing and accept it, as you imply, or reject it and point fingers at the culprits, raising public awareness of their false claims.

I'm not very good at letting crap suppliers claim to be brilliant.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

People willingly drink coffee out of machines in petrol stations Mike. If they didn't those machines wouldn't be there, in exactly the same way that Nero etc wouldn't be there if they didn't have loads of repeat business.

As for pointing fingers, be my guest, but just bear in mind that if you do it on a coffee forum you are preaching to the converted. Everybody else doesn't really mind what is in their cup, and they love it all the more if it bears the exact characteristics and calorific content of a dessert but is called a 'coffee'.

Now if you were to make some placards and stage a protest, that would be a different matter....


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I think many people outside this forum DO care. So often I've heard people say "I can't get a good coffee anywhere" or "Shmarsmucks coffee is terrible" ... but they still buy it. Not because they don't care but because it isn't as easy as it should be to get good coffee, so they have to take what they can get. You won't see those vending machine customers going "mmmmmm!".

And I disagree that saying something on here is preaching to the converted. Not everyone reading this has the same take on coffee as you, or I, or longer term readers. There are people reading this thread, today, next week, next year, who just like coffee. Not baristas. Many are surprised to hear that the marketing hype expounded by big coffee companies isn't supported by coffee 'connoisseurs' (hate that word







), and that, for example, Nespresso isn't the best on the planet.

By your logic, this whole forum is redundant. But that's it from me as I'm in danger of being goaded... one of your favourite hobbies


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

> By your logic, this whole forum is redundant.


Not at all. There's a great deal of useful information on this forum.



> But that's it from me as I'm in danger of being goaded... one of your favourite hobbies


Gotcha! You couldnt resist sneaking back for a look, could you.

There's no shame in being receptive to the pointy stick, Mike


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The public would probably care , if they knew what they were missing.......


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

All the more for you and I then, Gary.

Always remember the law of supply and demand...


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Indeed & Adam Smith's invisible hand.

We need more people to demand better standards of coffee...so let us supply them the knowledge if we can....


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## ObsidianSage (Jan 30, 2012)

I think its a case of what you don't know, you don't worry about. For example, two months ago was quite happily drinking coffee from Nero's, but since joining this forum I have learned a whole lot in a short space of time (still only scratching the surface) and now I'm more particular.

Now, when I do stray into a high street coffee store, I find myself wandering how fresh the beans are, mentally timing the extraction rate, looking for 'rats tails' etc, and I would have been oblivious to this before.

Gardyke - you say 'We need more people to demand better standards of coffee...so let us supply them the knowledge if we can....

'. What do you propose? Some flyers etc advertising the existence of the forum? It's the kind of place you'd only find if you were looking for it.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

ObsidianSage said:


> I think its a case of what you don't know, you don't worry about. For example, two months ago was quite happily drinking coffee from Nero's, but since joining this forum I have learned a whole lot in a short space of time (still only scratching the surface) and now I'm more particular.


May I just highlight that the Obsidian Sage was happily drinking Nero coffee


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

ObsidianSage said:


> I think its a case of what you don't know, you don't worry about. For example, two months ago was quite happily drinking coffee from Nero's, but since joining this forum I have learned a whole lot in a short space of time (still only scratching the surface) and now I'm more particular.
> 
> Now, when I do stray into a high street coffee store, I find myself wandering how fresh the beans are, mentally timing the extraction rate, looking for 'rats tails' etc, and I would have been oblivious to this before.
> 
> ...


Think of your friends, colleagues and family for starters...like a spiders' web. If you tell 10 people & they each tell 5 people, who in turn tell 2 people and so on....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Expobarista said:


> May I just highlight that the Obsidian Sage was happily drinking Nero coffee


Ignorance is bliss haha


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## ObsidianSage (Jan 30, 2012)

Indeed I was, and I have found my Friday visit a hard habit to break. However, this morning's epiphany might just have done it for me


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Think of your friends, colleagues and family for starters...like a spiders' web. If you tell 10 people & they each tell 5 people, who in turn tell 2 people and so on....


Don't encourage this Gary!

The end result will be tens if not hundreds of dissatisfied people. People who, previously, were 'happily' drinking Nero coffee. You are just a catalyst of misery!!


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Ignorance is bliss haha


If you want a movie analogy, this thread is The Matrix, and I am Agent Smith


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## ObsidianSage (Jan 30, 2012)

It's like when people used to think the sun revolved around the earth, or the world was flat, or there were only 4 tv channels, or....... oh better do some work.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I decided some time ago its better for everyone if just the people clever or lucky enough to discover real coffee, are able to enjoy it.

Otherwise the demand for top class beans increases and we all end up paying over the odds.

Enough independent places are popping up (especially in York) to keep me happy. Going back to the original topic, all these independent cafes that make great espresso use dosing chutes and dose directly into the portafilter, no dosers involved at all.

As it should be....*drools over the Mahlkonig k30 at the perky peacock*

I used to think the coffee I made from my Dualit was good....those thoughts actually make me shudder.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Yeah, there's a whole bunch of people that will be saying that about their Classics given time


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Oh I know where I'm at with my Classic. Think of it this way, my Dualit was like me at sea level, the Classic is me at Everest Base camp and the next level is the summit of the world.

I'm mostly the way there but still have a large mountain to climb and how far I've come from the seaside.

Off to attempt my first pour (for free pour friday) of the day


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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

For what it's worth, it's not an uncommon practice and makes sense from their point of view. Firstly, disregard freshness - they're keeping a doser full of ground already, so mixing bottom back into the top makes little difference. What has probably happened is that the doser has run close to empty. At this point, the doser will start to throw inconsistent amounts out for each click. The barista therefore grinds more and clicks a few doses through to clean any partial throws in the mechanism. Obviously I'm not encouraging this, but it isn't detrimental to the quality - which is already lost by grinding in advance.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Apparently you should discard any grounds not used after 15 seconds according to some American Internet expert somewhere


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Having just caught up on this thread it's been great to see the cross section of answers and thoughts developing.

Going back to the original post. Was the barista challenged? And if so, what was their reply? Asking the source of the issue for their side of the story is a great start.

They may have simply been following instructions blindly, or, as may be the case if they looked sheepish, have been doing something they know they shouldn't.

If you don't get a satisfactory reply, ask to speak to the manager, or maybe drop a line to Head Office to ask them what the barista was doing as you're unfamiliar with this practice in the wider coffee world.

There are many happy customers of cafes who appreciate their style of coffee. Trying to convert them is a futile effort. Voting with your feet is effective, and the monies can be spent with other retailers whose products you like.


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## ObsidianSage (Jan 30, 2012)

Glenn said:


> Was the barista challenged? And if so, what was their reply? Asking the source of the issue for their side of the story is a great start.
> 
> They may have simply been following instructions blindly, or, as may be the case if they looked sheepish, have been doing something they know they shouldn't.


No, but I will if I go there again, although I believe I earlier said I wouldn't. Hang on, whats this full loyalty card in my pocket? Oh well, nothing to lose then.

Overall, I think Roland's answer sounds the most likely explanation of what's going on.

Seriously, guys I've really enjoyed this thread throughout the day.


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## snegger (Dec 15, 2010)

yep going into Cafe Nero is defo a Dubious practice!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I did meet a few 'challenged' baristas at Neros, come to think of it.


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