# Grinder vs. Machine (Mignon+Bianca or Niche+Minima/MaraX)



## bcoffee (Jul 16, 2021)

Hi, apologies for yet another apples and oranges comparison question.

I currently have a Mignon II (50mm burr version) & Silvia V4 and am looking to upgrade to HX or DB. I've got to the point I can get reasonable espresso out of them, and with a bit of luck a passable pourover. I tend to flip-flop between espresso or brewed (V60/Wave) depending on what works best with the beans, and will usually stick with that for the whole bag, tending towards lighter roasts.

I average 3 espresso a day, but would also like the option of easily making a couple of cortados/caps without 15mins of SBDU boiler dancing.

Having spent hours looking at forums, reviews, etc. I like the idea of flow control/levers as something to play with, which leads towards the Bianca.

My question is, given that budget am I wasting the Bianca with the Mignon II? Would I be better off getting a Niche and something like the Minima or MaraX and then either upgrading later or installing an aftermarket E61 flow controller?

Thanks in advance


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@bcoffee - Whats your budget? You don't say it, but presumably it's around £2k (£499 Niche, £1250 Minima, £160 flow control).

Personally... I'd buy the best equipment you can afford. Which, in your list above, is Bianca + Niche. However, why don't you get the Bianca and keep the Mignon, at least for a while, and then consider upgrading the grinder? That's what I'd do.

Bella Barista is doing a really good deal with the Bianca + Solo for £2k.

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-bianca-dual-and-solo-grinder-perfectionists-bundle.html

If the Solo is not your thing, then you can buy the Bianca for £1850 brand new.

It will also give you the opportunity to get to know your machine, see what the Mignon can do and you can then think about upgrading - if at all - later.

There are advantages to the Minima though: The solenoid operated E61 is virtually maintenance free. You can then buy the flow control from Lelit or Profitec or whatever other manufacturer. The good thing... You can just do that when you feel like it - You don't need to do it straight away.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Having had the minima (with flow control) and the owning the bianca, i can say both will make the exact same nice coffee, the bianca is however a whole lot quieter. the minima is bang for bucks and easier to clean

if i had the budget though id go bianca


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## bcoffee (Jul 16, 2021)

Thanks both for the speedy responses, very much appreciate the feedback.



MediumRoastSteam said:


> @bcoffee - Whats your budget? You don't say it, but presumably it's around £2k (£499 Niche, £1250 Minima, £160 flow control).
> 
> Personally... I'd buy the best equipment you can afford. Which, in your list above, is Bianca + Niche. However, why don't you get the Bianca and keep the Mignon, at least for a while, and then consider upgrading the grinder? That's what I'd do.
> 
> ...


 Well, the budget was originally going to be around £1300 as that got me into the range of MaraX, Elizabeth, Minima. Then I got a bit of feature creep and wondered if I could/should extend up to the Bianca, at which point I worried that it would be wasted money with the Gen2 Mignon. At that point we're suddenly starting to get above £2K which is well above what I had in mind.

It was interesting (surprising?) to me to hear that there wasn't immediate outrage that a £250 grinder was being paired with an £1850 machine - although that might be more of a reflection on the quality of the forums when compared to the rest of the internet!

I hadn't seen the Solo pop up on BB, and particularly that bundle seems like a great deal albeit above what I'd set out to spend. However, I'm not sure I can quite get to grips with the look and idea of the Solo. I'd love to be able to say hand on heart that all that matters is the quality of the coffee that comes out, but it's going to sit in the kitchen and I can't help but see a part of a suspension subframe every time I look at it...whereas the Niche (in my eyes) looks much better.

I'm edging towards wondering whether the better upgrade route finances-wise might be Niche + Mara/Minima > Flow Control >>> Bianca (or similar). Some pondering to be done, but feeling better informed, thanks.



Cuprajake said:


> Having had the minima (with flow control) and the owning the bianca, i can say both will make the exact same nice coffee, the bianca is however a whole lot quieter. the minima is bang for bucks and easier to clean
> 
> if i had the budget though id go bianca


 That's good to know, there remains the issue that I will likely remain the weak link in the chain no matter what machine/grinder🙂


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

bcoffee said:


> I'm edging towards wondering whether the better upgrade route finances-wise


 The best thing you can do is to minimise upgrades. Every time you upgrade, you will lose a lot of money. It's counter-intuitive to have "upgrade" and "finance-wise" on the same sentence 🙂

If your end game is the Niche, buy the Niche. Keep the Silvia, and see how they work together. You might be pleasantly surprised.

If your end game is the Bianca, buy the Bianca. Keep your Mignon and see how it goes. Again, you might like it! It's not uncommon to have that setup. Granted, yes, it's not the best, but then you can say the Niche is not the best and a Kafetek Monolith Max is better suited for the machine. The Niche is not the best grinder in the world. Far from it. However, it's the best grinder for that market segment, in my opinion. (Electric single dose grinders sub £600).

If I were you... I'd buy the Bianca (Or Minima with Lelit flow profile?) and keep your Mignon. Next year, think about upgrading the grinder. 🙂


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## bcoffee (Jul 16, 2021)

Very true on the upgrades and long-term cost. I was coming at it more from a cash-flow point of view, but false economies and all that...

It's the single-dosing aspect and ability to flick between styles (espresso/brewed) that appeals more than the Niche itself, it just seems to tick more boxes for me than others. I think I need to decide whether to go more all-in on espresso or just upgrade my basic level of coffee so that I can make better brewed and easier steaming of milk. (or just accept that it's a hobby that I will end up spending lots of money on over multiple years 😉)

Thanks for the thoughts & tips.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I love the Minima with the paddle. I see no real reason to upgrade except for maybe a certain lever machine or the Decent. I like how it looks, I love how easy it is to clean and access what I need to access. Only downside is a small reservoir for me really and the noise. That said I got mine for a snip and for a little more on RRP you could get a Bianca. The only downside to that I think would be the need to perform maintenance on the E61 but otherwise would probably be a nicer experience (quieter) to use daily along with having a bigger reservoir and being a slightly bigger machine so access might be easier for maintenance to the internals down the line. Basically if I were looking at Minima with paddle or Bianca at rrp I'd probably go with the latter for a few extra £.

There are other options to upgrade the grinder, e.g. second hand commercials like Majors and Royals.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

I also own a Minima which is powder coated in black. This makes it a lot easier to clean - I would probably obsess over the Bianca.

As mentioned already the solenoid E61 on the Minima reduces maintenance which is great.

The Minima is noisy and the pump can rattle (the machine) before ramping up to 9 bar at the group.

The Bianca is quieter and has a better overall finish.

It I had to make the decision again it would be difficult to choose between the Minima (with flow control) and Bianca.

@Rob1 out of curiosity which flow control kit did you install?


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## spasypaddy (Apr 11, 2016)

i have a bianca and a specialita. i love it.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rob1 said:


> I love the Minima with the paddle. I see no real reason to upgrade except for maybe a certain lever machine or the Decent. I like how it looks, I love how easy it is to clean and access what I need to access. Only downside is a small reservoir for me really and the noise. .


 I actually got a few QuietX pumps from Lelit and when I get time, may try one on the Minima...it's one of those horrible jobs because the pumps not the easiest thing in the world to access...but I am "pumpcurious". 😁


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

HVL87 said:


> @Rob1 out of curiosity which flow control kit did you install?


 The bianca one.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Bella barista are selling the solo and Bianca for 1999


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> I actually got a few QuietX pumps from Lelit and when I get time, may try one on the Minima...it's one of those horrible jobs because the pumps not the easiest thing in the world to access...but I am "pumpcurious". 😁


 Just a few lying around eh...


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Rob1 said:


> Just a few lying around eh...


 😂😂

As many QuietX pumps lying around as espresso machines...

@DavecUK 10-15?


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

NICHE or Turin both are excellent grinder options. Don't discount the SAGE Dual Boiler either. According to DECENT its the next best thing (to a Decent!).


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@GrahamSPhillips If Sage could sort out longevity then they have a different machine. The sad truth is spares are incredibly difficult to source compared to 'standard' espresso machines and they only have one authorised repairer


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

HVL87 said:


> 😂😂
> 
> As many QuietX pumps lying around as espresso machines...
> 
> @DavecUK 10-15?


 I've lost track


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> @GrahamSPhillips If Sage could sort out longevity then they have a different machine. The sad truth is spares are incredibly difficult to source compared to 'standard' espresso machines and they only have one authorised repairer


 You read mixed experiences.. remember they sell huge volumes so problems get amplified. If you read the Dual Boiler thread on Home Barista there are quite a few older machines around and few problems so long as the maintenance is done. I bought mine 2nd hand via eBay for £500. It had just had a major service from Coffee Classics which had cost the owner less than £200 inc post, parts and labour. Its been a fun thing to play with and I'll likely get my money back when I sell it..


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@GrahamSPhillips Good luck! I have had 4 Sage DB's for various reasons so also have experience of them. Each time I sold them on with a good portion of the warranty remaining. But, your answer does not deal with the points I raised. Sage do sell many thousands of units so even with a small % fail rate you have many machines. They fail for a number of reasons, quite often around scale. Sourcing parts is difficult and as I said, the best way of seeing older Sage variants is to go to a museum. You reckon you will sell yours and recover the bulk of your outlay.....good luck with that one! I have bought brand new DB's from various outlets with 3 year warranty for £695 and Sage discount heavily at different times of the year which is going to work against you. A Sage DB out of warranty, in my humble opinion, does not have a value as you are living on borrowed time......that said, I hope yours gives you many happy hours of use, and it's next owner, if there is one!


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## bcoffee (Jul 16, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I actually got a few QuietX pumps from Lelit and when I get time, may try one on the Minima...it's one of those horrible jobs because the pumps not the easiest thing in the world to access...but I am "pumpcurious". 😁


 Strangely enough this was something I was pondering last night whilst flicking through your review of the Mara!

As well as the noise, you seemed to be singing the praises of the reduced flow rate of the QuietX pumps. Is that something that would have an effect on other machines (e.g. times/dosed) which weren't designed around it, or does it fall by the wayside for a simple on/off system like the Minima?

Also, does that lower flow rate compromise the benefits you can then get out of a flow control paddle or are you never really wanting to be at the high flow rates anyway?


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Yeh well Lance Hedrick seems happy with his.. And James Hoffman gave Hoffman gave it the thumbs up. That said there's no contest with my ACS Vesuvius (but of course they are x3 or x4 the price!)


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@bcoffee I think flow rate of the pump will be fine.


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## bcoffee (Jul 16, 2021)

Just wanted to say thanks to all for the info (both in this thread and across the whole forum!)

In case anyone was interested or it helps out others in the same dilemma, I went the MaraX route and have a Niche on backorder. Whilst the Minima was tempting, the potential limitation on where it can go was what swung it for the Mara in the end.

There has been an immediate improvement in consistency of the espresso over the old (non-PID) Silvia, so much so I'm now regretting not making the jump to a more temperature stable bit of kit much earlier. It turns out only some of the issues were me rather than all of them!

It goes without saying that the ability to steam milk on demand is a game-changer over the old SBDU.

I'm plenty happy with the output from the Mignon for espresso at the moment, but went for the Niche because I want to move back and forwards between espresso and filter regularly so single dosing is a big draw - will be interesting to see if it makes any difference to the espresso when it arrives.


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