# Artisan/Roastlogger and Amazon Dalian



## filthynines

So, a couple of questions:



Do you all prefer Artisan vs Roastlogger. If so, is there a particular reason? Are there any pros to use RL instead?


What hardware is preferred? Hasi said the below...


Has anybody written a guide for setting it all up?


Thanks in advance!



Hasi said:


> A year later, yes!
> 
> In three steps:
> 
> - first, I tried with supplied K-Type with no interpretable results.
> 
> - then, I re-routed RT probe to MyPCLab USB module for testing purposes - worked ok. With 6mm sheaths (or is it 1/4in?) I couldn't really tweak Artisan to show constant rise, curves were a bit zig-zag'ish
> 
> - just this week, I installed two Dual PT-100 sensors and connected both controllers as well as MyPCLab. Readings are a bit off, still, but over the weekend I should be able to fix it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking forward to my next roast where I'll have to redo my last working profile (Finca Medina - Antigua, Guatemala)
> 
> Will post my experience!
> 
> PS: I still use an old version of Artisan (believe it's around V0.8 or so) for my roast computer is vintage by now...


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## frederic

filthynines said:


> So, a couple of questions:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you all prefer Artisan vs Roastlogger. If so, is there a particular reason? Are there any pros to use RL instead?
> 
> 
> What hardware is preferred? Hasi said the below...
> 
> 
> Has anybody written a guide for setting it all up?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!


 Hi,

I currently use the Dalian (I have it since 10/2017) with Artisan, latest version. I run Artisan on a Raspberry Pi 3+ with 7" Touchscreen - in combination with an Arduino UNO with TC4+ board to get the "data" from Thermocouples plus adding some additional "functions" like "heater control" which can be controlled and logged in this setup via Artisan. I changed all Thermocouples to K-Type and added one near the "bean-window", by drilling a matching hole into one of the screws holding the glass-frame (see picture). (Btw. this implied also quite some "changes" on the electric side, e.g. having replaced the 'relais' with SSR, other displays, ... )

----

Now back to your question:

(1) To be honest - I never tried Roastlogger - but I am very happy with Artisan, as I can do all the things I want to do (and even more).

(2) I started my journey with the Dalian by implementing 2 additional (K-type) probes for logging: One at the "top" right point of the front plate (as ET), where the Dalian already had a place for (there I use one of the cheap 6mm China versions) and one additional - much thinner one (1.5mm), also of much better quality - near the bean-glass (as BT) - see picture. Both connected to a Voltcraft K204 with serial/USB adapter, while connected to an older Win8 Laptop running Artisan 1.x. For me this was a perfect start, as there was no bigger change on the "hardware" required and I could still use the existing probes and displays as additional reference.

(3) I consulted the great manual (written by @DavecUK) which came with my Dalian. This was for me a great starting point to get familiar with this machine.

---

I hope this helps for a first idea - happy to share more details if needed / asked.


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## filthynines

@frederic That is incredibly helpful, thank you very much. I will read what you've written carefully, and I think I will have a few more questions for you! Thanks again


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## filthynines

Hi @frederic I wonder if you'll get this message, but I'll try anyway.

Thank you for your very helpful explanation. Can I please ask a few follow-up questions?



Looking at your picture, is the K-type drilled into the lowest screw on the sight glass?


Is that K-type in the sight glass now your BT reading?


It's interesting that your ET probe is in the front right hole manufactured by Dalian. I thought the ET probe should be the one at the very rear, which is hooked up to the "Air Temperature" reading. Am I wrong?


Am I right in saying that your initial set-up had the BT and ET probes both going into the same hole, but the BT was pushed further in towards the sight glass?


Do you now have three probes in place, as that picture suggests that you do? If so, why is that?


Why did you choose K-type over RTD? Do you have a recommended supplier?


Thank you very much for your help so far, and I hope that you see this message!


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## frederic

filthynines said:


> Looking at your picture, is the K-type drilled into the lowest screw on the sight glass?
> 
> 
> Is that K-type in the sight glass now your BT reading?
> 
> 
> It's interesting that your ET probe is in the front right hole manufactured by Dalian. I thought the ET probe should be the one at the very rear, which is hooked up to the "Air Temperature" reading. Am I wrong?
> 
> 
> Am I right in saying that your initial set-up had the BT and ET probes both going into the same hole, but the BT was pushed further in towards the sight glass?
> 
> 
> Do you now have three probes in place, as that picture suggests that you do? If so, why is that?
> 
> 
> Why did you choose K-type over RTD? Do you have a recommended supplier?


 Hi @filthynines

I saw the message 😀 ... and regards your questions:

(1/2) - yes, this is the k-Type and used for BT reading on Artisan (via Arduino and TC4-Board)

(3) I use this - as it seems for me the sensor there rarely touches any bean (*I tried to use it as BT in the very beginning but got only weird results) and measures (my assumption) just the air in the free room above the beans. Maybe it is not the right/best position for ET, but the hole was available and I was a bit lazy to drill and wire an additional hole near the original position in the rear.

(4) I always used the upper right hole for ET* (with a "cheap" 5mm K-Type that came with my Dalian) - but initially tried to use the "original" left hole (occupied by the RTD) as BT with a K-Type for Artisan. But finally thought a position a little bit lower left would suite better (to be more in the bean mass). But as I am not a fan of drilling holes into the 10+mm front plate ... I drilled a screw instead

(5) I have now 4 probes in place - two are used with the displays mounted in the Dalian (with this I have always a "somehow" neutral reference e.g. if my Arduino or RasPi goes wild) - they are in the "original positions" as built by Dalian. The other two (in the free hole for ET + in drilled screw for BT) I use with Artisan via the Arduino/TC4 and USB.

(6.1) K-Type I use, as I already had a Voltcraft K204 with serial/USB adapter - usable with K-Types only - directly supported by Artisan. When used in parallel I saw the 5mm RTD were very slow and returned different temperatures (which is "normal" as far as I know from other colleagues). In the beginning I kept the existing RTD probes for the existing Temp controller of the Dalian. But later changed those to K-Type as well (together with the controller in the Dalian) to have in itself consistent reference temperatures - all based on K-Types. As far as I heard the RTD are more precise in terms of "real temperature" - so roast curves measured with K-Type vs. those with RTD might not match, and reference temperatures like for FC are different.

(6.2) Supplier ... I bought my K-Type at "sensorshop24" e.g. this one with 1.5mm diameter => ***ps://www.sensorshop24.de/mantelthermoelement-typ-k-bis-1150c-mit-silikonkabel

I hope this helps - happy to share more.


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## filthynines

That is incredibly helpful, @frederic, thank you very much.

There is a lot to digest there, but one more question springs to mind: what size drill bit did you use to drill the screw? And did you drill the screw whilst still affixed to the machine? (Two questions, I suppose... ha!)


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## filthynines

Oh, and one more thing, @frederic - would you kind posting a screenshot of one of your Artisan roasts, please? Just for reference.


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## frederic

filthynines said:


> That is incredibly helpful, @frederic, thank you very much.
> 
> There is a lot to digest there, but one more question springs to mind: what size drill bit did you use to drill the screw? And did you drill the screw whilst still affixed to the machine? (Two questions, I suppose... ha!)


 As my thermocouple has a diameter of 1.5mm => used a 1.5mm drill // used a matching hex screw and "mounted" 3 nuts to get a "grip" for the vice - and then slowly (with a lot of cutting oil) drilled the hole ... (I killed one screw and a drill with the first try - as I was too impatient)

Attached is a photo of one of the last roasts - just taken from the RasPi-Screen. The other shows the current setup, if you are interested






.
Please note: Dalian is OFF - I just switched on RasPi & Arduino - so you do not see any Temp or lights on the Dalian


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## Beeroclock

Hi Frederic

What smoothing settings do you have set? I'm interested as I'd expect a 1.5mm K-type with a turnaround time of 40secs to be a lot noisier than that - I been going through a bit of a journey with probes lately - I've settled on a 2mm K-type and a 3mm RTD which is mineral insulated - it's definitely slower than the K - type, but more accurate, I believe.

Thanks Philip


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## frederic

Beeroclock said:


> Hi Frederic
> 
> What smoothing settings do you have set? I'm interested as I'd expect a 1.5mm K-type with a turnaround time of 40secs to be a lot noisier than that - I been going through a bit of a journey with probes lately - I've settled on a 2mm K-type and a 3mm RTD which is mineral insulated - it's definitely slower than the K - type, but more accurate, I believe.
> 
> Thanks Philip


 Hi Philip

here you are.


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## CJV8

I've taken the plunge and headed down the Artisan route, but I've yet to carry out a roast with Artisan running as I just (mostly) finished the hardware last night.

To connect the roaster to the computer I'm using Phidgets. I considered something like a Voltcraft K202 but discounted it as the potential to expand into additional readings is an option with Phidgets. The default route seems to be the 1048 4 x TC unit, however I've opted for a 1101 4 x TC module and a 0000 Vint Hub, which then has a USB output to the computer. My reasons behind there were it was about £30 cheaper, the use of a Vint Hub allows up to 5 additional modules to be connected to the computer, but mainly with my track record of clever tech something's going to fail at some point so it's more economical to replace a single unit rather than the whole thing in the case of the 1048.

The Phidget units have been mounted in a project box behind the roaster, the environment temperature is being provided by the existing K-type TC mounted beside the trier and the bean temperature is to be provided by a newly installed K-type through the left hand door hinge. To achieve this I'd planned to drill through one of the bolts, and then through the front plate, however as luck would have it the holes for the top of the hinge are through holes already so no need to take a drill to the actual roaster. Drilling the bolt took a while without access to a small lathe (there's one at work but it's MASSIVE), as @frederic states above, lots of oil and plenty of patience. Of course since then I found suitable M5 bolts available through Ebay... (2.5mm hole, so for my 3mm probe I'd still have had to run the drill through, but shaving 0.5mm out would have been a few seconds work). The probe is quite long so it will have to be bent to make the cable routing a bit neater and I need to secure the TC cables out the way, but otherwise it's good to go.

I've bench tested the set up prior to installation to make sure I could get everything to talk to everything and after having to reinstall the Phidget drivers (couldn't access the Phidget control panel required to set up the modules) it was working just fine. There'll still be plenty of refinement to do, I'm certain my first few roast profiles will look horrendous as I haven't looked at sampling rates or smoothing yet, I just wanted to focus on getting the tech to work which amazingly it does pretty much right out the box. Given that I'm capable of destroying technology simply by being in close proximity to it, the more tech savy of you should have this working like a dream in no time!

Hopefully tomorrow should see the first few roasts with Artisan running, I'll pop the results up on here no matter how terrible they look.

I've attached some photos to show the set up. Which brings up another point, the view showing the probe inside the drum highlights how mucky the internals are. Does anyone have any advice for cleaning? Without risking getting my hand stuck the only thing I can think of is running the drum with some gravel in it!


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## Beeroclock

Nice work! You absolutely made the right choice to go with the VINT hub and TMP1101 - it's a newer design and allows for many optional add ons later should you desire - also easy to buy a module to try out RTD's at a later stage..

Here's to more a informed roasting experience


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## Rob1

@frederic

I love the look of the displays mounted in the project box. Would you mind sharing some links to the parts you used? Did you have to do any programming for them?


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## frederic

Rob1 said:


> @frederic
> 
> I love the look of the displays mounted in the project box. Would you mind sharing some links to the parts you used? Did you have to do any programming for them?


 @Rob1 This is a combination of a Raspberry Pi 3 with a 7" Touch Display (xxx://www.amazon.de/dp/B01HPV7M4I) to run Artisan, connected via USB to a Arduino Uno + TC4 Shield for the readout / control of heater. As I came from the Arduino - in combination with a laptop ... the Raspi made the Laptop obsolete and was for me an improvement and an evolution.

If you start from scratch and depending on the ideas, maybe a Raspi with Touch screen in combination with a Artisan supported phidget for reading the thermocouples might be sufficient and you would avoid additional programing on the arduino/TC4.

Regards RasPi => Though it might look complicated, the setup of a Raspi is quite straight forward (I have really no knowledge on the Raspi, just followed the instructions on the Artisan Page: https://artisan-roasterscope.blogspot.com/2019/02/running-artisan-on-raspberry-pi.html and it worked). As the RasPi natively supports HDMI - I started the setup just with an HDMI Monitor and a USB Mouse/Keyboard connected. The touch screen then came later, when I knew the communication Raspi/Arduino worked.

Regards Arduino => I use the arduino and the TC4 Shield for reading the thermocouples but also to control the power ot the heater. I equipped my roaster with an SSR and do a "switch on/off" via Arduino to control power (eg Heater 50% - translates into 0.5 sec off / 0.5 sec on). This "control" can be triggered by buttons in Artisan, and also can be used with "Alarms" for automation. I based this on aArtisan for the TC4 shield => https://github.com/greencardigan/TC4-shield. But this needs a deeper dive into Arduino/TC4 programming ...

Regards "mounting" => I used some (left over) pieces of Alu-Dibond I had on stock. Easy to drill and cut out with a fretsaw and the surface looks nice.

==

I hope this helps. Happy to answer more detailed questions - if needed.


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## CJV8

Well I've completed 3 roasts this morning, but can't view the saved profiles. Bear with me while I attempt to sort it...

Sorted, though I don't know how or why. Restart the laptop and it worked no problem.

So here are the first 3 roasts with Artisan. I was just using dregs of beans I have and did 3 different roast profiles based on different adjustments. Quite crude, but it was to try and show clearly the differences made by varying airflow or the element wattage. The RoR curve is not so much a steady decline as a rollercoaster. Some work on the smoothing required, but also there was a flattening, rise and crash on all 3 roasts. But on the plus side everything worked just fine technology wise.

Please feel free to tear me a new one regarding the roast profiles!


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## CJV8

Just to clarify, the 3 profiles above are:

1. Incremental SD adjustments throughout the roast up to FC. Profile is OKish, but the RoR flattens out and then crashes badly.

2. Exaggerated SD adjustments throughout the roast up to FC. Far too long a roast, extra airflow meant temperature rise was slow.

3. Same SD adjustments as 1. but with added adjustment to the element wattage, reducing it from 10mins until 12mins.

And a pretty picture showing the new probe bent to shape and the leads sorted out and secured.


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## Rob1

frederic said:


> @Rob1
> 
> Regards Arduino => I use the arduino and the TC4 Shield for reading the thermocouples but also to control the power ot the heater. I equipped my roaster with an SSR and do a "switch on/off" via Arduino to control power (eg Heater 50% - translates into 0.5 sec off / 0.5 sec on). This "control" can be triggered by buttons in Artisan, and also can be used with "Alarms" for automation. I based this on aArtisan for the TC4 shield => https://github.com/greencardigan/TC4-shield. But this needs a deeper dive into Arduino/TC4 programming ...


 Is an SSR safe to use with heating elements? e.g constant triggering on and off. Is there are reason you didn't go down the SCR control with arduino instead like this https://simple-circuit.com/arduino-scr-half-wave-controlled-rectifier/#:~:text=The gate terminal is used,to control the load voltage.?

I like the idea of having some computer control over the heating element after so much time roasting with the gene and the dimmer mod.


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## frederic

Rob1 said:


> Is an SSR safe to use with heating elements? e.g constant triggering on and off. Is there are reason you didn't go down the SCR control with arduino instead like this https://simple-circuit.com/arduino-scr-half-wave-controlled-rectifier/#:~:text=The gate terminal is used,to control the load voltage.?
> 
> I like the idea of having some computer control over the heating element after so much time roasting with the gene and the dimmer mod.


 @Rob1 As far as I understood the function of these normal* SSR - they switch on/off only when voltage is "zero-crossing" (= built in function). With that "behaviour" they are recommended for use with PID and heater. As the heating element has a quite inert reaction, this "switch on/off" - of full sinus waves - based on fractions of a second somehow compares (in the result) to the function of an SCR, which "switches off" just a parts of the sinus wave. And this "on/off" it is less complex for me to implement.

*) I know there are other models available which switch "immediately"


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## Dartmoor Coffee

CJV8 said:


> Well I've completed 3 roasts this morning, but can't view the saved profiles. Bear with me while I attempt to sort it...
> 
> Sorted, though I don't know how or why. Restart the laptop and it worked no problem.
> 
> So here are the first 3 roasts with Artisan. I was just using dregs of beans I have and did 3 different roast profiles based on different adjustments. Quite crude, but it was to try and show clearly the differences made by varying airflow or the element wattage. The RoR curve is not so much a steady decline as a rollercoaster. Some work on the smoothing required, but also there was a flattening, rise and crash on all 3 roasts. But on the plus side everything worked just fine technology wise.
> 
> Please feel free to tear me a new one regarding the roast profiles!


 Hi Chris,

Interesting and very useful pictures. With Artisan running you can see the data and make improvements. Looks good.

Phil.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi All,

Was wondering if someone could advise on this. Today I attached a 3mm thermocouple probe to connect to Artisan for Bean Temperature. In future will also connect the preinstalled thermocouple for Air Temp.

I connected to Artisan and ran a basic test. It picks up the temperature fine, but when I turned the heat on the new probe heated up far more quickly than the Dalian displayed temp. When I turned it off Artisan was at 62c, but the Dalian was only showing 42c. Is this correct and normal or could I have a wrong setting somewhere?

For this test I had no beans in.

Thanks

Phil.


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## CJV8

@Dartmoor Coffee, that's perfectly normal, the Dalian probes are 5mm so take longer to react. The temps will balance out once the roaster is warmed up and stable, but each time the temp changes you'll get different readings from the probes. For example at charge the Dalian will read a bottoming temp of about 134°C and Artisan shows somewhere in the mid 80s.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

@CJV8, thanks. Had forgotten about the 5mm probes, but surprised by the latency of the 5mm probes. Maybe the position doesn't help as well?

Makes me wonder though what the actual temperature is though while roasting. Would expect the charge temp is similar due to idle, but when charged the BT must be hotter during the main roast that what is being displayed. Interesting to see the differences when I get to test.

Thanks

Phil.


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## Beeroclock

CJV8 said:


> Well I've completed 3 roasts this morning, but can't view the saved profiles. Bear with me while I attempt to sort it...
> 
> Sorted, though I don't know how or why. Restart the laptop and it worked no problem.
> 
> So here are the first 3 roasts with Artisan. I was just using dregs of beans I have and did 3 different roast profiles based on different adjustments. Quite crude, but it was to try and show clearly the differences made by varying airflow or the element wattage. The RoR curve is not so much a steady decline as a rollercoaster. Some work on the smoothing required, but also there was a flattening, rise and crash on all 3 roasts. But on the plus side everything worked just fine technology wise.
> 
> Please feel free to tear me a new one regarding the roast profiles!
> 
> View attachment 44261
> 
> 
> View attachment 44262
> 
> 
> View attachment 44263


 I can't see where you're marking dry end - but I suspect that you may be stretching your Maillard phase a tad..

Is this your standard roast time/length?

How do they taste?

cheers Phil


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## CJV8

They were just the first roasts using Artisan. They tasted very good actually, but that's not my standard roast profile. FC is starting nearer 10mins now, and the lack of a dry end was down to me forgetting to click the button to mark it!


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## Beeroclock

There's been an interesting thread over on the HB forum re alternative roast profiles - trying to stretch out Maillard - not quite as much as the above roasts, but it's worth a look.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Got my probes working and did my first couple roasts on them. Seeing the ROR live makes it far more easier to see what's happening. One thing is sure there is plenty of areas needing improvement during the roast 😄.

Definitely a worthwhile investment.

Phil.


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## Rob1

@frederic @CJV8

Sorry to bring this back up.

Before I purchase parts I thought I'd ask a couple of questions.

It seems I should be able to hook up a Raspberry Pi with LCD display and Artisan with a 1101 4 x TC module and a 0000 Vint Hub. To control the heating element I would have to add an SSR and use the PWM pinout on the Raspberry Pi or Vint hub. Mainly to Frederic, is there any reason I wouldn't be able to use the PWM function of either and avoid a TC4 shield altogether?

To CJV8, could you link to the pre-drilled bolts you found on ebay please, and do you have any input on the above? The vint hub apparently also has a PWM function that presumably could be used to control the heating element with an SSR.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @Rob1,

I bought the screws in question, The link is: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M4-M5-M6-M8-M10-Stainless-Steel-Hex-Socket-Countersunk-Head-Hollow-Screws-Bolt/383304904305?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=651793003663&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648

You need the M5. Actually I bought 2, and it came very quickly. Should have 1 left over if you're interested. It is drilled to 2.5mm so would need to screw out another 0.5mmm but it's not that bad.

If you don't mind me asking to control the heating unit is that lowering wattage or turning it on/off?

Phil.


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## Rob1

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Hi @Rob1,
> 
> I bought the screws in question, The link is: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M4-M5-M6-M8-M10-Stainless-Steel-Hex-Socket-Countersunk-Head-Hollow-Screws-Bolt/383304904305?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=651793003663&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648
> 
> You need the M5. Actually I bought 2, and it came very quickly. Should have 1 left over if you're interested. It is drilled to 2.5mm so would need to screw out another 0.5mmm but it's not that bad.
> 
> If you don't mind me asking to control the heating unit is that lowering wattage or turning it on/off?
> 
> Phil.


 Turning it on off rapidly with a zero crossing ssr which in effect controls how hot it can get. It's similar in effect to using a dimmer but instead of manual control with a potentiometer you use a DC signal from an arduino or raspberrypi to switch an AC load via the SSR.


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## CJV8

Thanks for popping that link up @Dartmoor Coffee.

@Rob1, I can't help with anything past the Phidgets sadly. Once the complexities of something like Raspberry Pi are mentioned a small wisp of smoke comes out my ears as my brain reaches capacity and blows a fuse!


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## Batian

CJV8 said:


> Thanks for popping that link up @Dartmoor Coffee.
> 
> @Rob1, I can't help with anything past the Phidgets sadly. Once the complexities of something like Raspberry Pi are mentioned a small wisp of smoke comes out my ears as my brain reaches capacity and blows a fuse!


 Me to!


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Rob1 said:


> Turning it on off rapidly with a zero crossing ssr which in effect controls how hot it can get. It's similar in effect to using a dimmer but instead of manual control with a potentiometer you use a DC signal from an arduino or raspberrypi to switch an AC load via the SSR.


 Definitely feel like @CJV8and @Batian and my brain cannot cope with that this early in the morning 😆. I was going to look at the power mod this weekend. Just one thing I'm thinking about is the SSR placed before the Dalian and so you're effectively reducing the watts to the entire roaster or like the power mod and your insert it between the heat switch and heating elements.


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## CJV8

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Just one thing I'm thinking about is the SSR placed before the Dalian and so you're effectively reducing the watts to the entire roaster or like the power mod and your insert it between the heat switch and heating elements.


 If you reduce the watts to the entire roaster it'll reduce the fan speed and the drum speeds so best to install on the element only.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

CJV8 said:


> If you reduce the watts to the entire roaster it'll reduce the fan speed and the drum speeds so best to install on the element only


 Yes that was why I was wondering how the SSR worked and how it is connected to the Dalian.


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## Rob1

I think you'd wire it the same way as with the gene if you wanted yo retain functionality of the switch in the amazon. So basically with a switch to bring it in and out of circuit. Would have to check. I think Dave produced a guide for adding pwm control to the Dalian so you could probably just follow that but with the ssr in place of the pwm module used.

Actually you would need a switch to bypass it or make the SSR 'normally closed'.


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## Batian

Here ya go.....

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/amazon-dalian-roaster-power-control-mod


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## Rob1

Yeah you'd need to be able to switch it in and out of circuit if you ever wanted to use the roaster without computer control though. The SCR controller is different because it's always in the circuit and you just turn it to max to effectively bypass it.

A toggle between live and the heating element to switch to the SSR then on to the heating element to use computer control and switch it out to just send live straight on to the heater is the most logical solution. It is basically the same as the gene dimmer mod in that way. Could potentially be done wirelessly with a DC psu and arduino inside the electrical box thing of the roaster if there's room. Not a route I'm interested in going down but definitely possible so you can avoid adding a physical switch to the roaster, and it would be fully reversible.

EDIT: I see there's plenty of room for junk in the trunk of the roaster and absolutely no room in the power bit.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

@Rob1Keep us informed. Hoped it goes well.

@BatianYes that's pdf I've got. Hoping to do tomorrow.

Phil.


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## Claudia

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Got my probes working and did my first couple roasts on them. Seeing the ROR live makes it far more easier to see what's happening. One thing is sure there is plenty of areas needing improvement during the roast 😄.
> 
> Definitely a worthwhile investment.
> 
> Phil.
> 
> View attachment 45131


 Hope you're not selling this roast😀. Quick and ROR curve over the place. You don't need the control mod to get a better roast profile, just use the dampers. Anticipate don't react.


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## frederic

Rob1 said:


> @frederic @CJV8
> 
> Sorry to bring this back up.
> 
> Before I purchase parts I thought I'd ask a couple of questions.
> 
> It seems I should be able to hook up a Raspberry Pi with LCD display and Artisan with a 1101 4 x TC module and a 0000 Vint Hub. To control the heating element I would have to add an SSR and use the PWM pinout on the Raspberry Pi or Vint hub. Mainly to Frederic, is there any reason I wouldn't be able to use the PWM function of either and avoid a TC4 shield altogether?
> 
> To CJV8, could you link to the pre-drilled bolts you found on ebay please, and do you have any input on the above? The vint hub apparently also has a PWM function that presumably could be used to control the heating element with an SSR.


 @Rob1 Regards use of PWM pinout of a Raspberry Pi - I am sure you cannot connect this directly to a standard SSR (TRIAC). As far as I understood PWM - when not in sync with the "frequency" of main power (50/60Hz) - this would end up in unpredictable results with an SSR. I think you would need to use a special component to use PWM for controlling the heater power.

Beside the other functions - I use the Arduino to run a small program there to create a "slow" clock pulse on one of the digital pins, which I connect to the SSR.
E.g. with a time basis of 1 second:
10% heating = 0.1 sec ON / 0.9 sec OFF
20% heating = 0.2 sec ON / 0.8 sec OFF

Maybe you can run such a small program also on the Raspberry Pi with then creates such a "clock pulse" on one of the pins, depending on the heating value you would like to achieve? Or is the phidget you mention capable of creating such a "slow clock pulse"?


----------



## Rob1

frederic said:


> @Rob1 Regards use of PWM pinout of a Raspberry Pi - I am sure you cannot connect this directly to a standard SSR (TRIAC). As far as I understood PWM - when not in sync with the "frequency" of main power (50/60Hz) - this would end up in unpredictable results with an SSR. I think you would need to use a special component to use PWM for controlling the heater power.
> 
> Beside the other functions - I use the Arduino to run a small program there to create a "slow" clock pulse on one of the digital pins, which I connect to the SSR.
> E.g. with a time basis of 1 second:
> 10% heating = 0.1 sec ON / 0.9 sec OFF
> 20% heating = 0.2 sec ON / 0.8 sec OFF
> 
> Maybe you can run such a small program also on the Raspberry Pi with then creates such a "clock pulse" on one of the pins, depending on the heating value you would like to achieve? Or is the phidget you mention capable of creating such a "slow clock pulse"?


 I've been doing some reading on it and the only potential issue seems to be that the signal might not be strong enough to throw an SSR but you can hook it up to something that will drive it and just use a digital out to trigger that. I've got a pro trinket and mini arduino something or other lying around along with a thermocouple breakout and a couple of SSRs so I might give it a go with the gene cafe to see if it can turn the heater on and off, it it does then it has the power to throw an SSR and I might abandon the whole idea of phidgets in favour of making something myself. With programming pretty much anything should be able to work with artisan in theory. Having said that phidgets are guaranteed not to be a waste of time. The digital out on the vint hub is the same story as a clk pin on a Rpi, might not be powerful enough to switch the SSR but can be hooked up to something that is.


----------



## frederic

Rob1 said:


> I've been doing some reading on it and the only potential issue seems to be that the signal might not be strong enough to throw an SSR but you can hook it up to something that will drive it and just use a digital out to trigger that. I've got a pro trinket and mini arduino something or other lying around along with a thermocouple breakout and a couple of SSRs so I might give it a go with the gene cafe to see if it can turn the heater on and off, it it does then it has the power to throw an SSR and I might abandon the whole idea of phidgets in favour of making something myself. With programming pretty much anything should be able to work with artisan in theory. Having said that phidgets are guaranteed not to be a waste of time. The digital out on the vint hub is the same story as a clk pin on a Rpi, might not be powerful enough to switch the SSR but can be hooked up to something that is.


 Hi @Rob1 .... I found this info on PWM & SSR ... https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/233741/activating-ssr-for-an-ac-motor-via-pwm-input


----------



## Rob1

Yeah, I've moved on from the PWM idea to digital pins or something to drive SSRs. https://robojax.com/learn/arduino/?vid=robojax_4ch_ssr


----------



## frederic

Rob1 said:


> Yeah, I've moved on from the PWM idea to digital pins or something to drive SSRs. https://robojax.com/learn/arduino/?vid=robojax_4ch_ssr


 ... please make sure SSR for the heater can manage to switch 250V with enough Amp (10-20A) depending on heater wattage. In most of the cases such boards - like the one you mentioned - are too weak and limited to 2A / 250V. And higher wattage may require cooling of the SSR ...


----------



## Rob1

frederic said:


> ... please make sure SSR for the heater can manage to switch 250V with enough Amp (10-20A) depending on heater wattage. In most of the cases such boards - like the one you mentioned - are too weak and limited to 2A / 250V. And higher wattage may require cooling of the SSR ...


 Yes I know thank you for the concern....I'll get them over-rated. I believe those suitable for three phase will work with single but will check out data sheets to make sure whatever I'm doing will both work properly and be safe.


----------



## RDC8

So, after putting through circa 500 roasts I have been inspired to connect my Dalian to Artisan; this eventually arrived during the week so going to have a play around over the weekend. Spent a few days getting my head around the Artisan interface so let's hope there's not too much faffing around.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @RDC8, Found artisan and the phidgets very easy to connect. Are you connecting additional thermocouples as well? Phil.


----------



## RDC8

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Hi @RDC8, Found artisan and the phidgets very easy to connect. Are you connecting additional thermocouples as well? Phil.


 Leaving the existing thermocouples in place and connected to the ewelly controllers. Using the 5mm thermocouple in the upper right of the front plate as the ET probe and have another 3mm K-type to got in the lower left for the BT. Just waiting on the arrival of the hollow bolts and then will be good to go. Hopefully.


----------



## RDC8

So the playing around has thrown up some interesting results. Connecting everything up was a breeze, with Artisan reading from the thermocouple from the get-go. I monitored a roast just to get a handle on how everything looked. Roast profile image below; this was a test of the hardware/software settings and not an attempt to roast good coffee! The BT reading is taken from the spare K-type probe which came with the roaster.

What struck me was how much lower the Artisan reading from the k-type probe was compared with the PT100 BT probe connected to the ewelly display.

Later, to check the accuracy of the K-type, I popped it into some boiling water while connected to Artisan and it correctly read 100 C. (although this was quite a bit lower when the probe was only just submerged below the waterline. To be expected I think)

So I decided to run some simple comparisons in an empty roaster - again using the supplied K-type and comparing the artisan reading with the Ewelly. Given that the two probes are in reasonable proximity to each other I would have expected the readings to be almost identical.

Artisan via k-type Ewelly via PT-100 Analogue dial Notes

Cold roaster 24  18

15 Minutes after heating on 74 110 100% cooling air, 0 air through the drum

35 Minutes after heating on 158 193 195 still 0 air through the drum

45 Minutes after heating on 164 190 185 Still 0 air through the drum

55 Minutes after heating on 163 188 185 at this time opened the SD to 4.5

48 Minutes after heating on 151 179 175 at this time opened SD fully and shut CA to give 100% air through drum

70 Minutes after heating on 135 163 160 Switched heating off

So, overall the Artisan is showing around 25-30 degrees C lower that both the ewelly and the analogue probe. While I appreciate that the probes will react at different rates to changes in temp, I would have expected the absolute readings to be much closer. Is this difference in readings normal? Are there any other tests I should run? I would like to make sure I have all the settings rights before installing and connecting the 3mm K-type (just waiting for the new probe and hollow bolts to arrive). Any thoughts/observations/suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks


----------



## Coffee by the Casuals

Hey @RDC8 - well done! In short: yes, the discrepancy is very normal. I even get a discrepancy between the Ewelly and the Phidget *reading from the same sensor* on a duplex PT100.


----------



## CJV8

I find that a bit odd. K types are quicker reacting than the PT100s so if anything I'd expect to see the Artisan readings ahead of the Ewelly readings during warm up, and then everything evening out once stable.


----------



## Rob1

Thermocouples need to be calibrated. It might be accurate at 100c but not at 20c or 200c without calibration. It is useful as a reference as it will read consistently. Unless there's noise but that would show up as weird spikes rather than use-to-use variation.


----------



## Rob1

Coffee by the Casuals said:


> Hey @RDC8 - well done! In short: yes, the discrepancy is very normal. I even get a discrepancy between the Ewelly and the Phidget *reading from the same sensor* on a duplex PT100.


 I was wondering how I was going to connect the roaster to artisan. The guide mentions swapping the k type and PT100 around but I'd rather have the roaster operation unchanged. You got a new PT100 sensor with dual connection then?


----------



## RDC8

Rob1 said:


> Thermocouples need to be calibrated. It might be accurate at 100c but not at 20c or 200c without calibration. It is useful as a reference as it will read consistently. Unless there's noise but that would show up as weird spikes rather than use-to-use variation.


 Thanks for the insight @Rob1

Any guidance on how to go about calibrating? Is this something I can do myself?


----------



## Rob1

If using an arduino you can do it, not sure about how phidgets work. You download libraries to get it working with artisan, right? There might be some code to edit there (the libraries might also be bundled with the latest version of artisan). https://learn.adafruit.com/calibrating-sensors/maxim-31855-linearization

You can put it in an ice bath to get 0.0c and boiling water to get 100c assuming you're somewhere near sea level. You might also try and get boiling sugar to see if the thermocouple reads about 160c but I wouldn't bother personally and juts calibrate based on the PT100 reading. As said it's just a reference...

There might even be settings in artisan itself that you can use.


----------



## filthynines

RDC8 said:


> Thanks for the insight @Rob1
> 
> Any guidance on how to go about calibrating? Is this something I can do myself?


 I paid for it, but I'm technically deficient.



Rob1 said:


> I was wondering how I was going to connect the roaster to artisan. The guide mentions swapping the k type and PT100 around but I'd rather have the roaster operation unchanged. You got a new PT100 sensor with dual connection then?


 I did, based upon a spec that Hasi gave some months ago. I can give it to you if you like. However, I abandoned its use when I found I couldn't get aN adequate bolt/fitting for it. @CJV8 May well have solved that recently with an eBay find of some drilled-out bolts


----------



## Rob1

Instead of drilling bolts and shoving a 3mm thermocouple in there I thought there must be a fitting to use. I don't know if these are suitable, it would depend on how much thread is needed on the m5 bolt. How do you stop the thermocouple from moving if it's just put through a 3mm hole, relying on friction?

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/pneumatic-straight-threaded-adaptors/8656027/

or

https://www.rowse-pneumatics.co.uk/ec-camozzi-2521-m5-1-8.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwq_D7BRADEiwAVMDdHuH-9x3rIfXSnTL8IagxOAEx3h8DREulGe7EnIecydcjRFUHE_GqURoCZj0QAvD_BwE

and a thermocouple compression fitting like this: https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/temperature-sensor-accessories/0158610/


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## Stevebee

Get the 2.5mm drilled through bolt. Drill it out to 3mm, a easy quick 5 second job. Get a 3mm probe - it will fit snug and not move about. Certainly tight enough to not move in or out to foul the drum. Bolt really cheap and 3mm is one of the standard sizes for thermocouples.


----------



## CJV8

Rob1 said:


> How do you stop the thermocouple from moving if it's just put through a 3mm hole, relying on friction?


 I've found the probe to be a friction fit in the hole, and 20 or so roasts since installing the probe it hasn't budged at all.

A gland fitting would be preferable but there's precious little free space on the front panel if you want the bean probe immersed in the bean mass. Also drilling and tapping through 14mm isn't something you'd want to do by hand. An alternative I considered was to remove the door and drill through that in the pillar drill, but it'd place the probe quite close to the drum.


----------



## RDC8

Rob1 said:


> How do you stop the thermocouple from moving if it's just put through a 3mm hole, relying on friction?


 I was actually wondering if heat-grade silicone might be used to provide a flexible seal; something like this.

Seems like this product (and similar) are designed as automotive sealant and no mention of to being food safe! Any thoughts as to its suitability?

Update: FS product from Dow Corning -

Might even negate the need for a bolt altogether.


----------



## Rob1

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Food-adhesive-large-smoker-silicon/dp/B01F9HCCFE

But no I wouldn't use that....No particular reason I just don't like the idea. It wouldn't be in contact with the beans, it would just seal on the front plate, so it wouldn't need to be food grade.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

All sounds good although the one slight concerning me is the need to calibrate the thermocouple, which I didn't do. @CJV8 did you calibrate your thermocouple before inserting? Makes me wonder if I need to remove and calibrate?

I didn't receive any documentation about calibrating.

@RDC8 - I do have a spare hollow screw bought from China drilled out to 2.5mm. It is easy to drill out to 3mm if you need.


----------



## CJV8

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> @CJV8 did you calibrate your thermocouple before inserting?


 Nope. But then I haven't removed the sensors for the controllers to calibrate them either. I'm looking at rates of change, not absolute temperatures so a slight error on a reading doesn't worry me as it'll be consistent across roasts.

It always makes sense to check a probe through Artisan before installing it in the roaster, so I suppose moving forward it's not much trouble to do a 0°C / 100°C test with ice water and boiling water. Is there a facility in Artisan to calibrate sensors, or at least compensate for readings with a slight shift?


----------



## RDC8

CJV8 said:


> Is there a facility in Artisan to calibrate sensors, or at least compensate for readings with a slight shift?


 @CJV8 there is some info here on the set-up pages which explains how to do this https://artisan-scope.org/docs/setup/


----------



## RDC8

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> @RDC8 - I do have a spare hollow screw bought from China drilled out to 2.5mm. It is easy to drill out to 3mm if you need.


 Thanks for the offer; I have some on order from China and they should be here soon.


----------



## RDC8

So my new thermocouple arrived today; 3mm k-type probe.

Removed the lower bolt from the sight-glass and inserted the probe so that it would be properly in the bean mass; it's a snug fit. The M5 bolts with the hole haven't yet arrived from China!

Have just completed two roasts with coffees that I know well and all i can say is wow! what an insight!

Don't know if it's the placement or the new probe itself, but the results are pretty much as I would expect - turning point at around 85c (compared with 130c shown on the Ewelly), and 1st crack as anticipated. Nice declining ROR graph (which has always been difficult to infer from the Ewelly) and a drop temp around 15c higher than the Ewelly.

For me, the most encouraging insight was that I seemed to have been "doing it right" in the absence of the roast logging software. However, these are two coffees which I know well and could probably roast blind-folded. I also have three relatively new coffees waiting to be roasted up so I can already see the potential for the software to shorten the learning curve significantly.

Just a final question for those who have placed a probe through the front, how far into the bean mass have you set the probe? I didn't take an exact measurement but I reckon it was sitting 2 to 2.5cm into the beans. Too much? Too little? About right?


----------



## Rob1

@RDC8 where did you get the probe? I'm looking at a couple of different ones, thinking of just getting one I think is supposed to be used with Phidgets (judging by its weird connector) and is 3.2mm diameter 10cm long. The one from BB is way over priced.


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## RDC8

@Rob1 here's a link to the one that I purchased. Price is competitive, but it is sent from Germany so the shipping is quite high given the value (and size!) of the probe. I see they are out of stock currently.

However I would say that their customer service is A1.

https://www.robotshop.com/uk/phidgets-k-type-11cm-probe-thermocouple.html


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## Rob1

RDC8 said:


> @Rob1 here's a link to the one that I purchased. Price is competitive, but it is sent from Germany so the shipping is quite high given the value (and size!) of the probe. I see they are out of stock currently.
> 
> However I would say that their customer service is A1.
> 
> https://www.robotshop.com/uk/phidgets-k-type-11cm-probe-thermocouple.html


 That's the exact one I'm looking at! https://www.active-robots.com/k-type-probe-thermocouple-11cm.html


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## SamB

second the HB thread. its worth a read


----------



## Rob1

Link?


----------



## RDC8

Can anyone tell me what size thermocouple compression fittings are on the front (or side depending on POV)? I was wanting to swap out the spare which was supplied with the roaster with a new 3mm k-type to take the ET reading. That way I will have two probes the same size diameter.

Thanks in advance


----------



## Aquila

RDC8 said:


> Can anyone tell me what size thermocouple compression fittings are on the front (or side depending on POV)? I was wanting to swap out the spare which was supplied with the roaster with a new 3mm k-type to take the ET reading. That way I will have two probes the same size diameter.
> 
> Thanks in advance


 On our machine there are no compression fittings. Only big hollow bolts M12(?) with an inner size of 6mm and the only compression is 1 alien bolt of 2mm 90 degrees/radial to fasten any probe you put into that hole. A compression fitting is much more sophisticated and mostly has a flexible liner of PFTE or something like that. Our machine is made in April 2018.


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## RDC8

This is the sort of thing that I have been looking at: https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/sensor-accessories/0158610/

These are described as 1/8 1/4 1/2 (inches) or M16.

@Aquila - have you put a 3mm probe through that hollow bolt and secured it with the allen bolt? If so, how did you close the gap which is the difference in the two diameters?


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## Aquila

@RDC8; I tried with another PT100 sensor of 3mm diameter and wrap some Aluminium tape (metal, no plastic folies) around it until it fits. Not so fancy but it works. This sensor had a length of 100mm/4" and because I don't want to bent, it stuck out quite a bit. So I now re-used the old Dalian OEM probe with RVS sheath. This one was sand filled, and remount a new PT100 tip inside this sheath. (Without the sand)

The response time is the same.


----------



## RDC8

Thanks for the tip about the aluminium tape @Aquila I have some left over from an earlier project so will give that a try and see what happens.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi All,

Had a message from a fellow roaster showing his artisan profile with his Dalian. What he did was roast at approx 2500w and roasts with his SD fully open. All control of the roast is done via the CD. In the example he gradually reduces the CD, which produces a declining ROR. Slight FC crash, but thank might be resolved by opening CD to keep hit in. The batch was only 800g. Was told the roast tasted good via drip over. Wondering anybody tried this way since it seems a simplistic yet great way of roasting.


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## DavecUK

I do it the other way round...CA full open and then gradually open the smoke damper. If I need to pull more air (which I rarely do), I simply close the CA a tad. Even in Winter, I'm often down at 2200-2300W.


----------



## Rob1

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Had a message from a fellow roaster showing his artisan profile with his Dalian. What he did was roast at approx 2500w and roasts with his SD fully open. All control of the roast is done via the CD. In the example he gradually reduces the CD, which produces a declining ROR. Slight FC crash, but thank might be resolved by opening CD to keep hit in. The batch was only 800g. Was told the roast tasted good via drip over. Wondering anybody tried this way since it seems a simplistic yet great way of roasting.
> 
> View attachment 49850


 You'd get the same results doing it the other way around. SD and CD fully open and slow closing CD is equivalent to CD fully closed and slowly opening SD. They are two sides of the same coin. Logically you're increasing airflow through the drum equally with both methods.

Probably slight crash and flick. Altering air around that point might control it but I'd try other things.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Thanks forgot to say and not sure if I explained it properly both his SD and CD are fully open to begin with and SD stays open all roast.

I would have thought having SD open at the beginning of the roast would hinder the initially heating off the beans since the damper would reduce temp. Would it not be better as @DavecUK said by having SD closed allows the drum to heat up more efficiently?

Does anybody use the dimmer mod to help control the roast or just to set to make sure you have a constant wattage? By reducing the watts during the roast especially do you think that helps control FC and prevent the crash? I attached one of my best roasts where I use all 3 elements (SD, CD and Watts) to control the ROR. Although I haven't added the events during FC where I am continually making small changes to the CD to help achieve a steady declining ROR.


----------



## Ted_Kent

RDC8 said:


> Can anyone tell me what size thermocouple compression fittings are on the front (or side depending on POV)? I was wanting to swap out the spare which was supplied with the roaster with a new 3mm k-type to take the ET reading. That way I will have two probes the same size diameter.
> 
> Thanks in advance


If you haven't found a solution yet, I did this.

I got a round insert, drilled it for a 3mm TC and then drilled and tapped it so the retaining screw would hold the insert and the TC in place.









Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## RDC8

@Ted_Kent Thanks for this - nice solution. I have just gotten around to trying Aquila's suggestion of winding aluminium tape around the probe to create a seal. It seems to have worked - have only put through one roast with it though. The tape is a bit soft - so its not keeping the probe perfectly horizontal. I'll play around with it a bit and see if I can make some improvements. If not, i'll look into drilling out an insert.

Out of interest - do you know how far into the drum your probes reach? I was wondering if there might be an optimal insertion distance.


----------



## Ted_Kent

@RCD8 with the temp reading being done at the tip of the probe, I wanted that as far away from the mounting point with the roaster as possible. Does it make any difference, I don't know but in my mind it does haha. I've left a large enough gap between the end of the probe and the drum so nothing can get wedged between.

I've then got the phidgets setup to connect it all up to my Panasonic toughpad (FZ-G1) with the USB isolator to remove the ground loop issue (picture taken before adding the env probe, also added the barometer and humidity phidgets)









Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Evening All,

Great looking setup there @Ted_Kent. I'm looking to replace my current ET 5mm thermocouple I use for Artisan (front panel to the right) with a 3mm version. Has anyone found the correct compression tool to fit the 3mm probe or is the aluminium tape the way to go?

Did see this in the listings https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/sensor-accessories/0158610/. Would this work and is it the correct size?

Thanks

Phil.


----------



## Ted_Kent

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Evening All,
> Great looking setup there @Ted_Kent. I'm looking to replace my current ET 5mm thermocouple I use for Artisan (front panel to the right) with a 3mm version. Has anyone found the correct compression tool to fit the 3mm probe or is the aluminium tape the way to go?
> Did see this in the listings https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/sensor-accessories/0158610/. Would this work and is it the correct size?
> Thanks
> Phil.


I can't remember what the thread is on the roaster to say that would work or not.

If you look carefully at my picture you can see its just a small metal insert that takes the size from 5mm to 3mm, cost pennies to make.


----------



## Johnny Ess

Ted_Kent said:


> I can't remember what the thread is on the roaster to say that would work or not.
> 
> If you look carefully at my picture you can see its just a small metal insert that takes the size from 5mm to 3mm, cost pennies to


----------



## Johnny Ess

I tried this but the threaded section wasn't long enough to catch the threaded insert for tightening.

RS Cable gland

So I'll either wrap some aluminium tape around the gland/thermocouple to help catch & seal it or will look to replace it all with something else.

As reported in the other Dalian thread, the stock bolt is M14 x 1.5

RS also has thermocouple compression fittings lie this -

RS Thermocouple Compression fitting

But need to reduce from M14 x 1.5 to M8

So far, Ive only been able to find the following which reduces to M10

M14 to M10


----------



## Ted_Kent

Johnny Ess said:


> I tried this but the threaded section wasn't long enough to catch the threaded insert for tightening.
> RS Cable gland
> So I'll either wrap some aluminium tape around the gland/thermocouple to help catch & seal it or will look to replace it all with something else.
> As reported in the other Dalian thread, the stock bolt is M14 x 1.5
> RS also has thermocouple compression fittings lie this -
> RS Thermocouple Compression fitting
> But need to reduce from M14 x 1.5 to M8
> So far, Ive only been able to find the following which reduces to M10
> M14 to M10


Ah right ok. I just drilled my insert and then tapped it out so it also had a thread and then used a longer hex head bolt to secure through. The insert doesn't really need to be tapped out, only have a hole in it for the hex bolt to pass through and make contact with the k type.

I had everything I needed here so opted to make it rather than buy something that may not work.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Thanks @Johnny Ess and @Ted_Kent.

Ted - I cannot picture exactly what you are saying. Perhaps I've done roasting for the week I can take it apart and take a look.

Johnny is this what you are looking for? Does specify the 1.5 though.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324203451597?var=513263527395&chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=513263527395_324203451597&targetid=1139674279347&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9045304&poi=&campaignid=12128858326&mkgroupid=122515169451&rlsatarget=aud-629407027145la-1139674279347&abcId=9300480&merchantid=232722083&gclid=CjwKCAiAyc2BBhAaEiwA44-wW5lxEW1X13uYkxxnARkx5h0AZeP2GRTbb3-N_0IZe9S97LL77MbTjxoCyX4QAvD_BwE

Would something like this work and you just drill out 3mm hollow screw?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Audi-A1-A2-A3-Alloy-Wheel-Bolts-Studs-M14-X-1-5-28MM-Taper-17mm-Hex-X4/164155353339?hash=item26386be8fb:g:dPwAAOSw709ejy1n

Thanks

Phil.


----------



## Ted_Kent

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Thanks @Johnny Ess and @Ted_Kent.
> Ted - I cannot picture exactly what you are saying. Perhaps I've done roasting for the week I can take it apart and take a look.
> 
> Johnny is this what you are looking for? Does specify the 1.5 though.
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324203451597?var=513263527395&chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=513263527395_324203451597&targetid=1139674279347&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9045304&poi=&campaignid=12128858326&mkgroupid=122515169451&rlsatarget=aud-629407027145la-1139674279347&abcId=9300480&merchantid=232722083&gclid=CjwKCAiAyc2BBhAaEiwA44-wW5lxEW1X13uYkxxnARkx5h0AZeP2GRTbb3-N_0IZe9S97LL77MbTjxoCyX4QAvD_BwE
> 
> Would something like this work and you just drill out 3mm hollow screw?
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Audi-A1-A2-A3-Alloy-Wheel-Bolts-Studs-M14-X-1-5-28MM-Taper-17mm-Hex-X4/164155353339?hash=item26386be8fb:g:dPwAAOSw709ejy1n
> 
> Thanks
> Phil.


Phil,

Sorry, I will take some pictures when I finish for the day. The picture I already posted shows the original k type gland with my insert in and the new 3mm k type passing through it and the securing bolt at the 8 o clock ish position.

Its a very simple design though. I use the original k type bolt into the roaster (gland if you like)

I got a piece of round metal (what I call the insert) that fitted the hole of the original part. Drilled that out to 3mm (a touch more from memory maybe 3.2mm) this hole serves the new 3mm k type sensor.

To retail the sensor in place I drilled a hole in the side of the insert and made a thread in that hole.

I then replaced the original grub screw that held the original sensor in place with a longer hex head bolt so it passes through the original gland, into the insert and makes contact with the k type to hold it in place.

I hope that makes sense.


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## Ted_Kent

In addition to the above post as promised that i would add pictures. I cannot seem to edit and add them to the post so they are here as a further reply.

Large bit is the original dalian k type gland, small bit is the insert that reduced the size to accept a 3mm phidgets k type.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @Ted_Kent,

Thanks for the detailed instructions - I understand. Not sure I have all the pieces need especially the metal dowel, but can take a look.

Thanks

Phil.


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## Rob1

@frederic

Ok just modding my roaster now. Got the raspberry pi up and running with phidgets and an SSR. Problem is in my testing I can't trigger the SSR to 'dim' the heating element. I've got it attached to a light to test and have also tested it in the gene cafe. Outside of Artisan software I've written a short python script to control the duty cycle which works to turn the light on and off but the finer points within the duty cycle are lost. The SSR seems not to be suitable for the task being a zero-crossing type. I think I need to replace it with a random fire SSR but I wanted to ask you what you're using first and also if you have a snubber circuit on the AC side to protect against surges from rapid switching?


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## Ted_Kent

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Hi @Ted_Kent,
> Thanks for the detailed instructions - I understand. Not sure I have all the pieces need especially the metal dowel, but can take a look.
> Thanks
> Phil.


@Dartmoor Coffee annoyingly it was the last bit of 8mm rod I had, otherwise I'd have sent you a bit.........sorry.

There is a ebay seller search 8mm metal rod. A 100mm lengh is £2.90 delivered.


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## Johnny Ess

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Johnny is this what you are looking for? Does specify the 1.5 though.
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324203451597?var=513263527395&chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=513263527395_324203451597&targetid=1139674279347&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9045304&poi=&campaignid=12128858326&mkgroupid=122515169451&rlsatarget=aud-629407027145la-1139674279347&abcId=9300480&merchantid=232722083&gclid=CjwKCAiAyc2BBhAaEiwA44-wW5lxEW1X13uYkxxnARkx5h0AZeP2GRTbb3-N_0IZe9S97LL77MbTjxoCyX4QAvD_BwE
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Phil.


 Cheers @Dartmoor Coffee and @Ted_Kent

I ordered the Adaptor so going to try this with the thermocouple gland from RS 👍


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Johnny Ess said:


> ordered the Adaptor so going to try this with the thermocouple gland from RS 👍


 Please let us know how it goes.

Phil.


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## frederic

Rob1 said:


> @frederic
> 
> Ok just modding my roaster now. Got the raspberry pi up and running with phidgets and an SSR. Problem is in my testing I can't trigger the SSR to 'dim' the heating element. I've got it attached to a light to test and have also tested it in the gene cafe. Outside of Artisan software I've written a short python script to control the duty cycle which works to turn the light on and off but the finer points within the duty cycle are lost. The SSR seems not to be suitable for the task being a zero-crossing type. I think I need to replace it with a random fire SSR but I wanted to ask you what you're using first and also if you have a snubber circuit on the AC side to protect against surges from rapid switching?


 @Rob1 I use the SSR (mine is - as most of the ones you find on ebay etc. - a zero-cross type) not to "cut" the sine-curve. I just use it as on-off switch, with a time base of 1 second. For 100% heater power = ON // 10% heater power = 0.1 second on - then 0.9 seconds off. As the heater is just a big resistor, it reacts very "slow" and for me this setup works fine since the beginning - without any additional "snubber" circuits.


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## Rob1

Interesting. I tried it just like that and the SSR won't respond fast enough. It can only respond every half cycle as it's zero crossing. I could stretch the timespan out and say 10 seconds on = full power, 9 seconds = 90% and because it's a heating element it isn't going to be rapidly responding so it should work fine. Now I'm looking at burst fire and porportional control SSRs which are zero crossing still but work differently and are designed for light dimming and heating applications. Unfortunately they're about 4x the price of a normal ssr.


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## frederic

Rob1 said:


> Interesting. I tried it just like that and the SSR won't respond fast enough. It can only respond every half cycle as it's zero crossing. I could stretch the timespan out and say 10 seconds on = full power, 9 seconds = 90% and because it's a heating element it isn't going to be rapidly responding so it should work fine. Now I'm looking at burst fire and porportional control SSRs which are zero crossing still but work differently and are designed for light dimming and heating applications. Unfortunately they're about 4x the price of a normal ssr.


 Not sure if I understand you right regards the mentioned "... won't respond fast enough".
There are 2 half cycles per sine-wave - and 50-60 sine-waves per second (50-60Hz). So for me 0.1 seconds result in 5 to 6 sine-waves or 10 to 12 half-cycles which should be enough for the SSR to do its job - even if it misses the one or other half-cycle. Am I mistaken here?

Nevertheless I think you can easily extend to a time base of 2..10 seconds, as I think the heater is "slow" enough.

And just as a note: I use just a plain digital I/O port (no PWM) for switching the SSR ON/OFF.


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## PhilDawes

frederic said:


> So for me 0.1 seconds result in 5 to 6 sine-waves or 10 to 12 half-cycles which should be enough for the SSR to do its job - even if it misses the one or other half-cycle. Am I mistaken here?


 That sounds right to me. My understanding is that at 50 hz the SSR has 100 chances a second to turn on or off. So e.g. to run your heater at 81% power you leave it on for the first 810milliseconds of the second and then turn it off for the remaining 190milliseconds.


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## PhilDawes

(fwiw on my homemade roaster I turn the heater ssr on and off twice a second, so for 81% heat I turn on for 400ms, off for 100ms, on for 410ms, off for 90ms. I think this might be overkill though)


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## Rob1

I think the Phidgets out 1100 (5v digital IO) has a duty cycle between 1 and 0, 1 being fully on and 0 being off. Problems is 1 is not 1 second it is 20ms i.e 1 cycle at 50hz, so with a zero crossing SSR the resolution is either half cycle or full cycle. I'm looking in to how accurate that is and if I can change that now. An alternative is to refine the code so duty cycle is set to 1 for x time and test that.

EDIT:

So the PWM frequency of the 15625 hz. I've changed it to its minimum of 100hz. Output is PWM enabled. Probably the best thing to do is as I said above, set the duty cycle to 1 and run a simple script to have it switch on and off at appropriate intervals rather than try to use the duty cycle setting.

EDIT:

So testing this on a light to see if it dims is not viable. The SSR has to be on for 20ms to avoid supplying DC. It can of course skip half cycles and full cycles. So it's limited to 20ms on 10-20 ms off. That's enough for me to see a light flicker i.e it doesn't give the appearance of dimming. Ideally I'd have a way of detecting zero crossing and triggering the code a set time from the detection.

I'll attach my crappy code in case anybody else wants to set up artisan to run programs like this in the future but I'll be switching to a proportional SSR either burst first or phase angle and controlling it by supplying 0-5v or 0-10v from a 12 bit volt out Phidget that connects to a Vint hub.



> from Phidget22.Phidget import *
> from Phidget22.Devices.DigitalOutput import *
> from Phidget22.ErrorCode import *
> import time
> import asyncio
> 
> ch = DigitalOutput ()
> ch.openWaitForAttachment (400)
> 
> #ch.setDutyCycle(0) #setState overrides unhash for using PWM.
> 
> ch.setFrequency(100) #PWM Frequency
> 
> frequency = ch.getFrequency() #Display PWM Frequency
> print("Frequency: " + str(frequency))
> 
> async def main():
> while True: #Creates perpetual loop of main code below.
> count=0
> start_time = time.time()
> ch.setState(True) # Sets output on.
> dutyCycle = ch.getDutyCycle()
> print ("DutyCycle: " + str(dutyCycle))
> await asyncio.sleep(0.8) # Delays next off command by 800ms.
> print("--- %s seconds ---" % (time.time() - start_time))
> ch.setState(False) # Sets output off.
> dutyCycle = ch.getDutyCycle()
> print ("DutyCycle: " + str(dutyCycle))
> await asyncio.sleep(0.2) # Delays loop for 200ms seconds.
> print("--- %s seconds ---" % (time.time() - start_time))
> asyncio.run(main())


 The code prints a timer so you can see how long it is taking to send each command. I've tried 18ms on 2ms off and it still flickers, probably because it's actually waiting 12ms to switch it back on if the 2ms delay falls just past the zero crossing.


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## Rob1

Can't edit anymore. Can make a new post though.

So while my code works with the phidget it will not work from Artisan because Artisan takes control of the Phidgets attached so my python scripts can't take control of the phidget.

What should be possible is for code to be written as above that outputs via the 5v pin on the rPI (or another board). It should be possible to run the script from within artisan as a program via the call program function. For some reason the scripts don't all run even though they're essentially the same and the artisan command is the same, I can only assume this is because of the "wait for attachment line" which I've edited to 5000ms in the one that runs, and it's less in the others.

To call and external python script in artisan you just need to use the call program function and write in the documentation field "python*3* /path/to/directory/script.py" The 3 is in bold because it might not be 3, it could just be 'python' without any number. I haven't tested without the python line, could still work with just the directory.


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## frederic

@Rob1 As it looks like the "digital-out" VINT Phidgets are limited and PWM does not help here. How about making your own phidget?

Just as a first thought: Using an arduino (nano or micro) which you can connect with the RasPi in addition to the VINT hub via USB and create a small arduino program that could take on this time based ON/OFF task.

If you use the existing aArtisan code as basis (mainly you need to adopt the "command" structure that is implemented there for use via USB from Artisan) you could implement an own "heater" routine - similar to what I use - that can set the 0-100% just via a comand in Artisan as you would when using the TC4+ (Though with a significantly limited command set 😀).

Regards wiring: One of the I/O pins of the Arduino would be connected to the SSR (with 2 small resistors - one for 'pull down' and one for limiting the current). Power supply from USB should be sufficient to run the arduino and for switching the SSR.

Money invest would be low - just the arduino nano (10EUR?) - a micro USB cable + 2 resistors which you might have already on stock.

What do you think?


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## frederic

frederic said:


> If you use the existing aArtisan code as basis (mainly you need to adopt the "command" structure that is implemented there for use via USB from Artisan) you could implement an own "heater" routine - similar to what I use - that can set the 0-100% just via a comand in Artisan as you would when using the TC4+ (Though with a significantly limited command set 😀).


 Update: Got the info from Marko Luther (who is the current maintainer of Artisan-Scope) that the TC4 interface with the command structure can be used only if the TC4 is set as main device. So using this methode would not work with other Temp phidgets (at least not so easily).

As Modbus Protocol seems to be supported in Artisan with the buttons - I thought about connecting the Arduino Nano via Modbus Protocol. But still not sure if that is an expedient idea. Any thoughts?

Has anybody some experience with that setup?
Is someone using Artisan with a phidget in combination with a modbus device?


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## Rob1

frederic said:


> Update: Got the info from Marko Luther (who is the current maintainer of Artisan-Scope) that the TC4 interface with the command structure can be used only if the TC4 is set as main device. So using this methode would not work with other Temp phidgets (at least not so easily).
> 
> As Modbus Protocol seems to be supported in Artisan with the buttons - I thought about connecting the Arduino Nano via Modbus Protocol. But still not sure if that is an expedient idea. Any thoughts?
> 
> Has anybody some experience with that setup?
> Is someone using Artisan with a phidget in combination with a modbus device?


 If the only thing I need is to pull 5v from a GPIO pin I can do it straight from the raspberrypi artisan is running from using python scripts called by buttons.

I'd basically do as I tried to do with the Digital IO Phidget but avoid the conflict as Artisan wouldn't be hogging the GPIO pins. The only issue with my initial idea was Artisan automatically grabs all Phidgets attached even if they aren't set up to be used, I assume this is because they're connected to the VINT hub and with other phidgets that attach via usb it wouldn't be an issue. I could perhaps avoid buying a 12 bit 10v out Phidget for use with a proportional SSR if I just use the 5v pin on the raspberry pi together with a capacitor and resistor so I can use 0-5v output.

I'm just checking the electricity meter to make sure there won't be any issues with phase angle control or rapid switching with an ordinary zero crossing SSR. The easiest implementation will be 5v GPIO with a basic zero crossing SSR, which won't require any additional parts. I'm just thinking long term phase angle control might be better in terms of electricity savings and heating element life. PWM for a proportional SSR with a raspberrypi can be done following this: https://www.instructables.com/RaspberryPi-Pulse-Width-Modulation-Demonstration/

I may also be able to use PWM with the Digital IO Phidget I have with a proportional SSR but it seems like Artisan won't allow that even though the Phidget itself is PWM enabled....I'll have to check it before buying anything else.


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## Johnny Ess

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Please let us know how it goes.
> 
> Phil.


 So I ordered the bits mentioned previously which I will use because they are threaded and will be very secure. BUT I also managed to get a nice snug fit only using the thermocouple compression adapter from RS, which fits very snug into the stock nut in front plate anyway (pictured).

RS Thermocouple fitting


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## Dartmoor Coffee

HI @Johnny Ess, Glad it worked out. Looks good. In the end I followed someone's advice who used aluminium tape. I used the original nut and then wrapped the tape around it to bring it up for a tight fit. Using the original tightening screw it fits in neatly and secure. I also managed from the original probe take out the metal insert and spring coil so you cannot see I have changed it.


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## Rob1

My first attempt at roasting with the newly installed phase control SSR allowing computer control over the heating element.

Typically I didn't press charge. Well I thought I did but found out around the TP that I didn't when it didn't pop up and there was no ROR line I thought "crap". Anyway the profile is delayed by about 2 minutes. Not ideal really at all, just a test run to see how much control I could have with 1kg. I tried 250g but the temps were far too hot even though I dropped the ET pid to 200c. For the 1kg I charged at 180c/220c and even that was a little too hot.

I think my roaster is a little overpowered. Used the ca and sd previously at the same charge setting I'd have to have the ca fully closed to manage temp and it was erratic due to the high air flow. Much better now I can turn the heat down. I'm guessing 75% at 250v is going to be more appropriate, maybe less.

Pretty easy to see where I went wrong on this profile mainly. 30% to the heater came about 1 min late.

The designer was cool and I was able to almost follow it but I was hoping I could get the PID function working to automatically make adjustments but either that isn't possible with Phidgets or I'm missing something. I believe the playback function should still work once a roast profile is saved which will be nicer than having to time CA and SD adjustments as well as dimmer adjustments while reading a power meter....on that note, how have people got around the massive RCD on the artisan blocking out the power meter screen? I have two and can't see the displays on either.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @Rob1, I bought one of these from screwfix and puf the roaster plug on the side socket so freeing the power metre display. It is also surge protected so thought another layer of protection. I don't have any other devices attached to the other sockets. Guess you could buy a cheap one, but I went for the additional protection.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/masterplug-13a-fused-3-way-surge-protected-multi-way-plug-adaptor/79089

What is your wattage at 100% power?

Phil.


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## Rob1

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Hi @Rob1, I bought one of these from screwfix and puf the roaster plug on the side socket so freeing the power metre display. It is also surge protected so thought another layer of protection. I don't have any other devices attached to the other sockets. Guess you could buy a cheap one, but I went for the additional protection.
> 
> https://www.screwfix.com/p/masterplug-13a-fused-3-way-surge-protected-multi-way-plug-adaptor/79089
> 
> What is your wattage at 100% power?
> 
> Phil.


 Thanks. No idea as I can't see the meter!


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