# Why is the v3 Silvia considered a better made machine than the pre-2015 Classic?



## Mother Goose (Aug 31, 2020)

Yes, I know this is a commonly debated question, but even after searching, I haven't been able to find the answers. According to some people, the Silvia is "much better built" than a comparable (pre-2015) Classic:



Jumbo Ratty said:


> Id go for the silvia.
> 
> Use the search function on here as it's been discussed plenty before and nothings changed.
> 
> ...


 and



forzajuve said:


> There is not a massive difference between a Classic and Silvia although the Silvia is the better machine, the price difference is so much it is a no brainer new for new. However a second hand Silvia for £200 may be worth the comparison to a new Classic. If you are considering a purchase at £730 then you really need to know your budget. There is a second hand Expobar dual boiler on here for that which blows these out of the water and could keep you satisfied for life.


 But after reading about people's experiences, I've noticed that the pre-v5 Silvias have issues of build quality that come up. Some issues I've noted.



*Rust in the drip tray. *I mean, this is pretty obvious. There are numerous threads about the work required to fix this.


*Plastic flaking off the grouphead cover.* Again, this is another well-documented issue.


*Boiler element burnout.* Another common issue. There are a number of threads about the inability of pre-v5 machines to replace the elements. You typically need to buy a new boiler + element (£150) to upgrade to the SS element version and swappable element.


Parts for the Silvia (drip tray, grouphead cover, boiler) are much more expensive than those for the Classic. The Classic (pre-2015) doesn't have such obvious issues. The worst that can happen on the Classic seems to be boiler corrosion, and then a new boiler is really only £50 or so. I've seen finally that the modding and servicing community for the Gaggia Classic seems more active---perhaps because their machines are more affordable and the parts more widely obtainable (28k posts in the Gaggia forum vs. 4k posts in the Rancilio forum).

I'm wondering if you had any thoughts about the above points.

I've never handled a Silvia in real life, so maybe there are things about the build quality that I didn't anticipate. Is the pre v5 Silvia build quality really superior to a pre-2015 Classic?


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## espressoSquirrel (Jul 24, 2020)

I have never had a classic, but I have a v2 2007/8 silvia, Rust... yes, it has some, but we are talking tiny spots, for me at least, nothing that would cause structural issues. The grouphead cover is just the chrome paint getting knocked off the cover, I guess i must be careful when i put the portafilter in as I have never had that. Again its not a structural thing. Boiler wise, its a brass boiler compared to an aluminum boiler so I expect thats where the extra cost comes from, but it makes it more robust and you can put citric acid through it without issues for example.

So, when people talk about build quality, of a silvia... I have never really understood it, i mean its a few ugly panels of metal that barely fit together screwed around a big chunk of brass with some wires. I don't think it was put together by some old italian artisan in a workshop in some tuscan mountains. You can only really talk about a few key components and as you said, the boiler is a bigger chunk of more expensive metal, and myabe a little easier to maintain, I think that's the main thing.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Interesting post. Having had both Classic and a Silvia, prompted me to check where the models stand currently, spec-wise and price. There are several variants of both the Gaggia Classic and Rancilio Silvia. Historically, the Silvia was considerably more expensive than the Classic. Older Classic variants had smaller aluminium boilers compared to the bigger brass one on the Silvia making the Silvia much more capable for steaming. The Gaggia Classic 2015 variant had neither a solenoid or an OPV to allow you to adjust bar pressure - very much a step backwards but favoured a stainless steel boiler over the older model's aluminium. Latest Gaggia Classic boasts an OPV, solenoid but has gone back to an aluminium boiler. The latest Gaggia Classic is around £90.00 cheaper than the latest Rancilio Silvia. For that, you get a boiler 300ml which is more than twice the size of the Classic's and brass as opposed to aluminium.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

espressoSquirrel said:


> So, when people talk about build quality, of a silvia... I have never really understood it


 Silvia is the only domestic product Rancilio produce - rest is commercial. Argument goes, because of this, internals in a Silvia are more heavy duty. Whether this is true or not, don't know.


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

I have had three Silvias and about seven Classics. The Silvia is a more robust machine but still suffers from the restrictions imposed by the single boiler dual use design. Given a straight choice, I would go for the Silvia but I wouldn't pay a large premium for one. A HX machine for only a little more money is so much better. The early versions (v1 andv2?) of the Silvia had the fused in, non replaceable elements but most have the replaceable type.


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## espressoSquirrel (Jul 24, 2020)

Norvin said:


> I have had three Silvias and about seven Classics. The Silvia is a more robust machine but still suffers from the restrictions imposed by the single boiler dual use design. Given a straight choice, I would go for the Silvia but I wouldn't pay a large premium for one. A HX machine for only a little more money is so much better. The early versions (v1 andv2?) of the Silvia had the fused in, non replaceable elements but most have the replaceable type.


 I didn't know that... I always wondered when the end of life would be for my silvia, i expect that would be when the element goes for me.


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

espressoSquirrel said:


> I didn't know that... I always wondered when the end of life would be for my silvia, i expect that would be when the element goes for me.


 I'm pretty sure that the later boiler fits straight on the earlier machines. I have even machined early boilers to take a replaceable element.


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## espressoSquirrel (Jul 24, 2020)

Norvin said:


> I'm pretty sure that the later boiler fits straight on the earlier machines. I have even machined early boilers to take a replaceable element.


 So your saying I can never justify buying myself a new machine... 😞


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

espressoSquirrel said:


> So your saying I can never justify buying myself a new machine... 😞


 I think you can *always *justify buying yourself a new machine.

NB: Justify is used here in a very loose way.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

Norvin said:


> I'm pretty sure that the later boiler fits straight on the earlier machines.


 It does. My V1 from 1998 had a later boiler fitted after about 5 years of use (element burnt and it was non-replaceable, so needed a new boiler). Later on I replaced a solenoid valve coil. No issues apart from that. I sold it in full working order after 21 years of ownership. Can't compare to the Gaggia as I never had one, but this tells you something about the build quality of the Silvia.

Having said that, nothing was done to address the deadband and the machine still needs temp-surfing or a PID mode (as does the Gaggia). I can't understand how manufacturers still do that, as clearly people would prefer to pay a little more and get this feature from the factory. Maybe it is similar to cars being sold without a spare wheel?


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

espressoSquirrel said:


> So your saying I can never justify buying myself a new machine... 😞


 Here is how to justify it: You are tired of temp-surfing, you consider fitting a PID, but the price for an Auber is almost the cost of the machine, and you prefer to put that money towards a new machine that keeps the correct temperature. This worked for me anyway. (if you already have a PID - you are doomed, and I can't help you. ).


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## Mother Goose (Aug 31, 2020)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Interesting post. Having had both Classic and a Silvia, prompted me to check where the models stand currently, spec-wise and price. There are several variants of both the Gaggia Classic and Rancilio Silvia. Historically, the Silvia was considerably more expensive than the Classic. Older Classic variants had smaller aluminium boilers compared to the bigger brass one on the Silvia making the Silvia much more capable for steaming. The Gaggia Classic 2015 variant had neither a solenoid or an OPV to allow you to adjust bar pressure - very much a step backwards but favoured a stainless steel boiler over the older model's aluminium. Latest Gaggia Classic boasts an OPV, solenoid but has gone back to an aluminium boiler. The latest Gaggia Classic is around £90.00 cheaper than the latest Rancilio Silvia. For that, you get a boiler 300ml which is more than twice the size of the Classic's and brass as opposed to aluminium.


 Just to be clear (since it'll be confusing otherwise), I'm referring mostly to used prices and for older models. A used pre-2015 classic runs for around £130-170 in Summer 2020, while an older Silvia seems to go for £200-280 (data on the Silvia is sparse). In any case, that's pretty close to your estimate of a £90 difference for the new prices.

One point on build quality that I do notice is that the Silvia has a more modularised design, where the chassis splits into 3-4 parts. In theory, this makes some servicing elements easier (because you can access the insides fully disassembled). Maybe this is related to why people feel it feels more "quality".



Doram said:


> It does. My V1 from 1998 had a later boiler fitted after about 5 years of use (element burnt and it was non-replaceable, so needed a new boiler). Later on I replaced a solenoid valve coil. No issues apart from that. I sold it in full working order after 21 years of ownership. Can't compare to the Gaggia as I never had one, but this tells you something about the build quality of the Silvia.
> 
> Having said that, nothing was done to address the deadband and the machine still needs temp-surfing or a PID mode (as does the Gaggia). I can't understand how manufacturers still do that, as clearly people would prefer to pay a little more and get this feature from the factory. Maybe it is similar to cars being sold without a spare wheel?





Norvin said:


> I have had three Silvias and about seven Classics. The Silvia is a more robust machine but still suffers from the restrictions imposed by the single boiler dual use design. Given a straight choice, I would go for the Silvia but I wouldn't pay a large premium for one. A HX machine for only a little more money is so much better. The early versions (v1 andv2?) of the Silvia had the fused in, non replaceable elements but most have the replaceable type.


 Is this helpful?

I'm still slightly confused about which units have a swappable element and which do not, so please do advise.


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## espressoSquirrel (Jul 24, 2020)

Mother Goose said:


> Is this helpful?
> 
> I'm still slightly confused about which units have a swappable element and which do not, so please do advise.


 well from that site i can tell you i have the 2006 - 2013 boiler, with the integrated element, so is that the v4 or v5 that has the swappable element... I would class myself as not very handy. But I have disassembled the silvia and replaced the steam valve, which just to note.. on a v2 means having to remove the front cover and all the wires by the way. But its a roomy chassis easy to get to everything. and there's lots of info out there. This is certainly why so many live forever.


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## coffeeWhippet (Aug 1, 2020)

espressoSquirrel said:


> I have never had a classic, but I have a v2 2007/8 silvia, Rust... yes, it has some, but we are talking tiny spots, for me at least, nothing that would cause structural issues.


 Have you found you have to do a particular workflow so as to minimise rust? We've just got a second hand Silvia and I'm contemplating whether it will involve hours of cleaning afterwards making sure to dry absolutely everything which may potentially rust and it does seem to spit water out all over - we're trying to mod the solenoid flush outlet so it doesn't spray back over the frame so much.

However, have just taken off the back panel and can see that the water tank has a u shaped groove in the top where the pipes feed in and the condensation manages to condense a bit around this u shape, drips down the outside of the water tank and then down onto the frame below and this is where you can see the worst of the rust starting to bubble up. Would imagine after years of use, this would be really bad? Do you have this issue at all?


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## espressoSquirrel (Jul 24, 2020)

Never did anything to mitigate it, I think some people are rough with the drip tray as that seems a common problem place, The rust spots I see are probably areas that were sprayed from the steam and a leaky pump hose.

i put some pictures here

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/53487-little-leaks-and-bits-of-rust-on-silvia/?do=embed


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