# Recommend a starter Lever Machine



## davetucker

I'm looking to get myself a lever machine.

This will be my first espresso machine and I've currently got £250 in the kitty.

What would you recommend as the best starter machine in this price bracket?

Currently looking at a used La Pavoni Europiccola but wondering if there are others that I should be considering?


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## coffeechap

how about a caravelle if you you dont need a steam wand, you might get a gaggia achille for that money too.


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## Kyle548

There's a caravel on eBay now for £200.


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## davetucker

A steam wand will help justify the expenditure to the wife. I can bribe her with Lattes.


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## coffeechap

where abouts are you as I have a few that you could try before you commit to something, inc the la pavoni, a caravel, gaggia achille elektra microcasa and a faemina!!!


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## davetucker

Kyle548 said:


> There's a caravel on eBay now for £200.


Tempted but I think it's in Italy.

Would prefer to avoid customs charges and it's a long way to send it back if it's not as advertised.


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## davetucker

coffeechap said:


> where abouts are you as I have a few that you could try before you commit to something, inc the la pavoni, a caravel, gaggia achille elektra microcasa and a faemina!!!


I'm in Somerset


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## Kyle548

If it's not as advertised, you can claim to PayPal and I believe you get to keep it, but there is no wand on a caravel anyway.


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## DavidBondy

davetucker said:


> Tempted but I think it's in Italy.
> 
> Would prefer to avoid customs charges and it's a long way to send it back if it's not as advertised.


I don't think that you will need to pay customs charges or duty for intra-EU purchases. That said, it is always caveat emptor!!


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## Iaiain

You would have to send it back, you could not get both a refund and keep the machine. No customs duty from Italy. But best avoided I think.

"the machine is turned on and heats up is stopped for quite some time might need a bit of revision"


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## Soll

If you decide on Pavoni Europiccola I may be selling my soon!


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## davetucker

Good to know about customs and the EU - I've been ordering from the US too much and have been unlucky with customs many times.



Iaiain said:


> "the machine is turned on and heats up is stopped for quite some time might need a bit of revision"


I saw that too and it put me off. Think I'll give that one a miss.



Soll said:


> If you decide on Pavoni Europiccola I may be selling my soon!


PM me if you decide to sell! La Pavoni looks like my favourite for now, but may take coffeechap up on his offer and have a play with some other machines before I make a commitment.


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## Soll

Davetucker. I don't really want sell it but I've been instructed by the war department you see, I recently bought a coffee roaster but only on condition that I sell the Europiccola, so being a man of my word I reluctantly agreed, but you should take coffeechap up on his offer and play around before you decide.


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## coffeechap

A well cared for forum member la pavoni like solls would be a good buy.


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## davetucker

coffeechap said:


> A well cared for forum member la pavoni like solls would be a good buy.


Agreed. I think it's the best machine in my price range. PM'd Soll to see if he will (reluctantly) part with it.


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## DavidBondy

Soll said:


> Davetucker. I don't really want sell it but I've been instructed by the war department you see, I recently bought a coffee roaster but only on condition that I sell the Europiccola, so being a man of my word I reluctantly agreed, but you should take coffeechap up on his offer and play around before you decide.


Soll, if you decide to play around then you might get to keep both yet!!! David


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## coffeechap

good choice.....


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## Orangertange

If Soll doesn't want to get rid off his, you can have my one for 250, with 51mn torr

i'm a bit reluctant but it's not getting any use, will put in for sale thread when I get round to it


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## davetucker

Thanks Orangertange! If things don't work out with Soll I'll let you know!


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## Orangertange

Cool,

Oh and it also comes with a bottomless, have a look at the my set up thread


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## welshrarebit

Would you actively deter people from purchasing a la pavoni or similar over a Gaggia Classic for absolute beginners? From what I've read there is greater difficulty with the lever, but a lot more room for better shots etc.


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## coffeechap

i would not deter anyone from getting started on a lever, you still have to learn about how to make a shot of coffee on either machine, but once mastered the la pavoni will knock the spots off a gaggia classic in the cup!!


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## Orangertange

I was a absolute beginner when I got my pavoni and got some amazing shots out off it after a couple of days, it's just not a very forgiving machine ie there's no short cuts, you'll also need a decent stepless grinder to go with it, tried my one with a porlex when I was without and couldn't get it to go quite fine enough


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## xiuxiuejar

Both a cheap lever and a Gaggia Classic are excellent starter machines. In truth, if you just want to grind and make a decent coffee with as little fuss as possible, then possibly the Classic is your machine - ALTHOUGH be warned, there is a lot of technique and practice needed to start making decent espresso with the Classic. But bang for bucks, it's in a class of it's own.

Now, I love lever machines too and I have a La Pav Gran Romantica - basically a Europiccola with a few extras. There are limitations to these machines - they usually need to be cooled every second shot and the second shot is usually the best. You also have to have a very capable grinder and a lot - and I mean A LOT of patience to develop a technique that works. However, IF you get it right, for the price, the coffee is unbeatable - for the price!

The good thing about the lever is you will learn what it is that makes a good coffee - the importance of grind, constant even pull, the pushing of water through the puck and you will 'feel' it when it's good. It's also cool for parties!!! People love seeing it!


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## NickR

I got my Europiccola from John Lewis for £350, had it for 4 years, got quite good with it. The seals needed replaceing every six months and the steam pipe constantly dripped. Then I purchased a Gaggia Baby from a second hand market for £10 - It was way superior to the Pavoni. Beware the lure of the pretty Pavoni - its just an expensive kettle.


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## coffeechap

I have to completly dissagree Nick, the La pavoni is not an expensive kettle, it requires a knowledge of temperature control and shot prep, it also needs a good grinder paired with it, but it kicks a baby out of the park in terms of the best that can be had out of both machines, plus I have a 50 year old one still going strong, not sure how many babies will be around in 50 years time!


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## 4085

NickR, quite simply, you could not have become "quite good" with it if you think the shot a Baby could ever produce could come anywhere near a decent lever shot!


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## xiuxiuejar

NickR said:


> I got my Europiccola from John Lewis for £350, had it for 4 years, got quite good with it. The seals needed replaceing every six months and the steam pipe constantly dripped. Then I purchased a Gaggia Baby from a second hand market for £10 - It was way superior to the Pavoni. Beware the lure of the pretty Pavoni - its just an expensive kettle.


I don't think a Baby is better but it's what I said, if you need speed and ease, then you need to spend a grand plus on a lever. If you are prepared to work and you have a decent grinder, you get an understanding for temperature and pressure, then your shot will be superior to that of any machine for that budget. I still haven't changed the seals on mine (I have bought some though) and I know that they do often drip although at present mine doesn't. It's not the best machine to make a quick morning coffee before work but if you get up five minutes earlier - turn the machine on - do your morning things in the bathroom while it warms up and then invest those minutes in preparing your shot, you won't be disappointed. Also, you find these dirt cheap on ebay etc as people have no patience for them.


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## welshrarebit

I'm not too worried about the headache of learning to master something, I find that improves the enjoyment overall. I always preferred the idea of a lever machine over a standard machine, there's a certain romance to it.

Would the la pavoni europiccola work well with a Mignon grinder, or would I need to invest in something better?


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## NickR

dfk41 said:


> NickR, quite simply, you could not have become "quite good" with it if you think the shot a Baby could ever produce could come anywhere near a decent lever shot!


When I say"quite good" I mean that I could make nice milk based drinks, but trying to get a nice balanced espresso was very difficult indeed and very rarely achieved. The little Gaggia was a revelation.


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## xiuxiuejar

welshrarebit said:


> I'm not too worried about the headache of learning to master something, I find that improves the enjoyment overall. I always preferred the idea of a lever machine over a standard machine, there's a certain romance to it.
> 
> Would the la pavoni europiccola work well with a Mignon grinder, or would I need to invest in something better?


Then go for it! As I say, once you get it right, the coffee is unbelievable - much better than a classic or silvia. It is also great fun.

I don't know much about the Mignon but people here seem to like it. As long as it goes fine enough and is consistent then it should be OK but others will know better.


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## coffeechap

The mignon will be fine with the la pavoni, it grinds consistently and fine enough to do the job


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## davetucker

coffeechap said:


> The mignon will be fine with the la pavoni, it grinds consistently and fine enough to do the job


Would you recommend a Mazzer Mini over the Mignon?


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## welshrarebit

Thanks for all the constructive input guys, might invest in a more expensive grinder if I can pick up the La Pavoni at a decent price.


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## aFiercePancake

My first lever was a La Pavoni. Then again, I was after the James Bond aura from the beginning of Live and Let Die. The La Pavoni is a very good machine. It takes a while to learn like any lever machine. That's the fun. And aggravation.

The Mignon is a decent grinder from what I can tell. The Mazzer Mini is, depending on which one you get, upgradable to a better burrset. My guess is the Mazzer would be the next step up from a Mignon. Maybe a step and-a-half.


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## davetucker

Thanks for all the replies. I've gone for a La Pavoni Europiccola and a Eureka Mignon.

Hoping both will arrive before the weekend


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## welshrarebit

Let me know how you get on with them dave, keeping my eyes peeled for that setup myself.


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## taxiboy

I have a La Pavoni and Virtuoso grinder it make good coffee on a bad day, but great coffee on a good day. Does take some learning but well worth it.


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## mcharrogate

Having started with a classic, now feeling the unmistakable itch of upgraditis - why is it that levers are just so damn sexy?!


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## mcharrogate

Mmm londinium...


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## coffeechap

It is just the connection that you have with the process, it really feels like you are part of the process and not just the initiator of it as with those dirty pump machines


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