# Buying advice for first machine and grinder



## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

Hi everyone,

I'm a newcomer to the site and am looking for some advice.

Apologies, I know this type of post must be very common but I couldn't find an exact similar situation.

I currently use coffee capsules - Nespresso to be exact - and have done so for many years now (wait..bear with me)....

But I'm strongly considering taking the plunge into buying my first proper espresso machine and a grinder.

I love espresso - that's all I drink really. My wife likes lungos/americanos and the occasional cappucino if we're out.

I've been researching a lot and based on my budget I've narrowed my list down to three machines:

1. Rancilio Silvia and Rocky doserless grinder (my first choice and within budget)

2. Simonelli Oscar II and ???? grinder (my next choice but when I add a grinder will be a little above budget)

3. Bezzera BZ09 and BB0005 grinder (might possibly be choice#2 except for being a bit above budget but moreso for the fact that I can't find much info on Bezzera online)

For the Silvia I'm not interested in a PID so I know I'll need to temp surf.

My main concern with the Silvia is - as I'm going to be new to this will I be able to manage with the Silvia or will the learning curve be too steep and I'll end up not being able to pull a decent shot.

Also, I've read mixed reviews about the Rocky grinder in that it's not all that good for fine grinding?

If I went with the Oscar II what grinder would ye recommend (a Vario?).

On that note, is there such thing as an espresso only grinder (I've a feeling the Bezzera BB0005 is one of these) - i.e. that it doesn't do the coarser settings for filter coffee etc.

I don't think myself or the missus will ever be interested in filter/pourover so having a fancy-shmancy grinder that has 1000 programmable settings it probably over the top as I'll only ever be using it to grind for espresso.

Finally, on water hardness - we live in an area here in Ireland that has particularly hard water.

Now I have a salt softener in place in the kitchen which softens the mains supply in and also a carbon filter on a separate small tap by the kitchen sink for drinking water.

Which should I draw water from for filling the machine - the salt softened?

Sorry for all the questions but just looking to have as much info as possible before I make a decision.

Many thanks,

Joe


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Welcome Joe,

Sounds like you've done a fair amount if research already. The silvia is generally well regarded.

If I were you I would consider 2nd hand as your money can go a lot further.

A common newbie error is underestimating the importance of the grinder.

The bulk of the money in buying a grinder and the 1000s settings you refer to generally centre around espresso grind, the rocky is generally not highly regarded I would recommend a mignon as the starting point. A good grinder has more impact in the cup than a good machine.

Can't help water front I'm afraid


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

Thanks igm45,

Yeah I had thought about 2nd hand but in general I tend to steer clear in case of faults/ex warranty repair etc.

I probably won't be making my purchase for some time yet anyway as in process of moving house - so want to have a look at where the machine and grinder will fit in first









I take your point on the grinder - I probably am underbudgeting it - I'll have a look at the Mignon.

Cheers,

Joe


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

I'd steer away from the Silvia. If you are happy temp surfing, buy a gaggia classic. If it were my money Id go for one of your other options.

If youre in no rush, have a look at the machines for sale here once your post count it up. You'll get more for your money and a well maintained machine from a forum member. OK, you will have to forgo the warranty in most cases but will get a good deal.

Don't underestimate the part that the grinder plays in espresso - consider used commercial grinders. They tend to be bullet proof


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

One Joe to another. Welcome!

Have you considered a Sage Duo Temp? They have a fixed temp PID so should give some sort of consistency. A few other users have this paired up with a mignon and are producing great coffee.


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

hey joef you have some good advice there already youtube is a suprisingly good place to see equipment in action so that might help you as well.


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

Thanks all for your comments - it's been really great in helping me to find my way around this minefield of coffee kit.

OK, I've looked at the Mignon grinder now on a number of sites and I think that's the one for me - seems to give a better quality grind for espresso compared to the Rocky.

I've tweaked my top 3 list now after more consideration:

Silvia is still on the list but with the Mignon grinder instead of the Rocky - I found a good bundle deal on a website for the pair (£650).

There's something about the solid commercial quality of the Silvia that keeps bringing me back to it even though it's probably less sophisticated than others.

The Oscar II is off the list - I know this might be shallow but it's the ugliest machine I've seen and I'd rather have it on the counter in my kitchen.

The Bezzera is cut too - I just don't feel that there's much of an online communnity around it and very little reviews.

I've looked at some reviews of the Sage Duo Temp - It looks good although I think it has a smaller PF diameter and no 3-way solenoid?

One other that I might consider is the LeLit PL41TEM - has anyone any experience with it?

It has a built in PID which is appealing.

I know in my first post I mentioned that I'm not interedted in a PID....what I really meant was that I'm not interested in retrofitting a PID to say a Silvia (at least not while its still under warranty anyway which I think would be for 2 years).

Thanks again,

Joe


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Joe,

Pleased to hear that your research is coming along nicely. The Lelit machines seem to be met with skeptism, however this did not stop me from buying the Lelit PL62 Mara. It is a thing of beauty and build quality is excellent. I think the skeptism is a fear of the unknown.

Having looked at the model you are considering the only thing that may put me off is the 57mm portafilter. This could cause issues sourcing baskets, naked pf, tampers etc.

I (think) the Silvia is the industry standard of 58mm and this would be enough to tip me towards that. The PID does make the Lelit tempting but as this could be restrospectively added to the Silvia its not a deal breaker.

Hope this helps.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Yeah you're right the DTP doesn't have a 3-way valve but to be honest by the time you've poured your coffee it's ok to remove anyway and if you've got the grind and dose right the puck is dry and knocks out clean. The portafilter is 54mm so yeah smaller than most but it does me fine


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

If you could stretch to the Profitec 300, you'll be getting a dual boiler which might save you some money in the long run, avoiding upgrading machines


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

Morning Joe and welcome. I did a lot of research like yourself but unlike you I drink a lot if milky drinks so I found my single boiler baby gaggia a real headache. If I didn't I think I would have upgraded to the Silvia, the Sage are capable machines no doubt but the Silvia is solid and better made, will certainly last longer and with your tricky water I'd go with that. The temp surfing is easy enough to master, I'd only suggest steering clear from VST baskets for a while till your producing consistent coffees. The Migons seem well regarded on here. For water I'd buy a TDS meter and see what filtration is making your water softest and go with that.


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## Dougy Giro (Aug 8, 2017)

I have had the Bezzera for about 7 years. Never missed a beat, pulls a good shot, steamer is powerful too. I was going to go for a Silvia originally, but bought mine at less than half price, and had only been used for 2 weeks at a trade show; it was gleaming when I picked it up and knock tray hadn't been used at all


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