# Lelit Mara "issues" - advice needed on potential fixes



## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

Morning all,

I bought a Lelit Mara from here a couple of months back:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/56873-lelit-mara-under-12-months-old-%C2%A3600/?do=embed

First things up, I'm not a novice with brewing, I've been using espresso machines (Sage until now) for years. I'm fine with cleaning routines on this E61 (backflushing, lubrication etc).

Now since I moved from my last Sage machine to this, I've struggled to get a decent cup of espresso. I've got all my variables in place and I can end up pulling a shot with a Pullman/IMS basket with good flow, 1:2 ratio as per recipe and in about 35 seconds. Still doesn't taste right (and yes, I've varied time/yield either side of this and I get bitter or sourness, I cannot find the middle ground). I've burnt through about 3kg of coffee so far and feel like I'm no closer to a good cup from when I started.

I'm still feeling very frustrated with the process and almost at the point where I wish I had my Sage machine back.

Adamant that this wasn't all down to my technique, and having understood that the machine had never been descaled, I decided to take the top mushroom off to check - attached is what I found.

Understanding that the mushroom was almost entirely stripped of it's chrome, and the green areas were only prevalent on the remaining spots of chrome, I assumed that this was chromium oxide as it did not react in citric acid. The rest of the exposed brass cleaned up within seconds to a salmon pink colour, I cleaned it as best I could but some chrome still remains.

Further to this, I have noticed the following on the machine (might be issues, might not) - please can you help advise:



When making a shot recently, on pulling up the group lever the pressure gauge jumps (not gradual) straight to 4 bar, hovers and then gradually ramps to 9.5/10 bar after 6 seconds or so - every video I have seen of a Mara making a shot, the pre-infusion gradually ramps to 2 bar, then up to 4 bar, then up to 10 bar. I'm concerned that this is stopped me getting a good pre-infusion. Is this coffee-bound, aftermarket basket-bound or possibly machine-bound?


After brewing through the group, steam pressure is at around 1 - 1.5 bar. When steaming the milk, pressure on the gauge falls to as low as 0.5 bar. This doesn't seem normal to me. (I do having issues with the milk steaming where I can't get whatever milk foam I generate to incorporate well, but whether this is connected or not I do not know).


Any existing lubrication was brown/black when I dismantled the parts, after totally removing all gunk and re applying lubrication to cams/pins/joints, it turns black within a day or so.


Both steam and hot water wands are quite "graunchy" and creak heavily at certain points of movement of the ball joint, I've taken them apart and cleaned the parts individually and relubed but this hasn't fixed the issue.


The group lever still seems clunky even after decent lubrication.


I contacted BB (where originally from) but they are inundated with machine services so cannot help me extensively. They have suggested a descale to start, followed by possibly changing the seals and I'm fine with doing that, I'm just wondering a few things that you might be able to help with so that I don't bother them any further.



If I take part the E61 group, can I soak the entire pieces in citric acid or will it strip the finish from the outside of the group pieces?


Can I soak the cams and pins in citric acid too or will the descale through the machine be sufficient for this purpose?


Should I aim to strip the rest of the chrome off the mushroom (to prevent further flaking) and if so, how?


Following @DavecUK's guide to descaling, I can't see any reference to pushing descaling solution through the steam wand - is this correct or should I bring some descaler through that part too?


Is there anything else obvious that I should be doing to make this machine perform optimally?


Happy to post videos if necessary. Many thanks in advance.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

pandabear said:


> Any existing lubrication was brown/black when I dismantled the parts, after totally removing all gunk and re applying lubrication to cams/pins/joints, it turns black within a day or so.


 This is normal with food grade silicone grease, e.g.: Molykote 111.

Sorry to hear about the rest. 😞


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

> First things up, I'm not a novice with brewing, I've been using espresso machines (Sage until now) for years. I'm fine with cleaning routines on this E61 (backflushing, lubrication etc).
> 
> Now since I moved from my last Sage machine to this, I've struggled to get a decent cup of espresso. I've got all my variables in place and I can end up pulling a shot with a Pullman/IMS basket with good flow, 1:2 ratio as per recipe and in about 35 seconds. Still doesn't taste right (and yes, I've varied time/yield either side of this and I get bitter or sourness, I cannot find the middle ground). I've burnt through about 3kg of coffee so far and feel like I'm no closer to a good cup from when I started.
> 
> ...


 Huge post. To start with until a machine is working normally, as it should be, then of course you can chase your tail a little. The Mushrooms often end up looking like that. With my RO water I tend to find mine remain clean, so I think something generally in water tends to make them like that. If used with pure tap water they go very fast. is it a problem no...if you want to just gently sand off with fine wet and dry anything loose, soak the bottom part in a bit of citric (NOT the outer chrome), it will go salmon pink, that's normal don't worry about it....Then grease the green O ring with Moly and pop it back in and forget about it. It won't hurt you at all. I always say with water...RO and then add back some TDS with sodium bicarb....to about 70.

We will take the issues in turn..first group 1 to 5

1. Difficult to know without doing a descale.... It could be lots of things. Interestingly approx 4 bar is when the preinfusion chamber opens. So if there was a very low flow rate, then you might see the gauge rise SLOWLY, then pause for an extended time before continuing to max pressure. However you are not seeing this which would lead me to believe flow rate is fine. Check flow rate it by weighing how much water you get out in 15 seconds from an open group.

2. How much milk are you steaming, are you steaming when the machine is just warmed up, does it happen the second time you steam, is this when it's the very first steaming you do after warming up, does it happen all the time. Have you checked your vacuum breaker doesn't sometimes stick. Did you remove the steam tip and check inside that it's not crudded up.

3. If you are pulling shots that will be from the coffee. Does it turn black after a day or so if you just pull the lever and "pretend" to do the same number of shots as you normally would with *no coffee* in for 1 day?

4. Which parts of the ball joint are you lubing, indicate on your photo...you need to check the o rings in the nuts as moving the wands with insufficient lubrication can tear them or damage them (as can overtightening the nut). Use a torche and shine it in the nut

5. Where in the movement does it feel worst. Photograph the chamber that contains the cam....clear close up of the two pins (cam followers inside). Does the bottom pin move cleanly when pressed with the flat part of a flat bladed screw driver..

*Second group of questions*

1. The bits inside if you want but definitely not the chrome parts of the group it WILL etch the outside and you will need to buy a new group.

2. The descale through the machine should be done first, and then the checks in 5 above. If lever movement is still bad, then desassemble the group and at all the touch points of moving parts apply Molykote...theres more than you think. Parts must be *completely* dry before applying moly.

3. advised above....but just get the loose stuff off...don't go mad and don't sand the O ring.

4. Shouldn't be any scale in the wand...don't go disconnecting the autofill etc.. as you may see advised in places, unless you really know what your doing....because you absolutely DON'T wand descaler pissing out of the safety valve and vacuum breaker.

5. Take plenty of photos and video the brew pressure problem, open the machine, photo inside, do good quality photos (don't play guess what this is, by photoing up to close). *Observe the machine (case off) and what it's doing when warming up from cold.*

You could also try to get an E61 brew group thermometer, I believe @MrShades had some at a good price....might even give a forum discount on them?

https://www.shadesofcoffee.co.uk/mod-products-for-e61-based-espresso-machines


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

Many thanks for the detailed reply, I shall start with a scale as soon as I get the time and will work from there. In the meantime, I have some answers to the questions you asked above:



DavecUK said:


> 1. Difficult to know without doing a descale.... It could be lots of things. Interestingly approx 4 bar is when the preinfusion chamber opens. So if there was a very low flow rate, then you might see the gauge rise SLOWLY, then pause for an extended time before continuing to max pressure. However you are not seeing this which would lead me to believe flow rate is fine. Check flow rate it by weighing how much water you get out in 15 seconds from an open group.
> 
> 2. How much milk are you steaming, are you steaming when the machine is just warmed up, does it happen the second time you steam, is this when it's the very first steaming you do after warming up, does it happen all the time. Have you checked your vacuum breaker doesn't sometimes stick. Did you remove the steam tip and check inside that it's not crudded up.
> 
> ...


 1. Will find out water rate tomorrow and report back

2. I'm steaming approx 175ml of milk in a 350ml Motta pitcher, no I'm steaming after I've pulled a shot and after machine has been on for 30+ mins, not sure if it occurs second time I steam (only make more than 1 occasionally), yes it's repeatable day-to-day. When I last had the top off the machine less than a week ago the vacuum breaker appeared to me working and releasing pressure fine. Steam tip has been removed and cleaned in Pulycaff last week. There is brown (mineral?) residue in the plastic inner tube that I assume I can clean out with Rinza?

3. Will test and report back, will need to regrease after a descale anyway

4. I lubed the top of the ball (where brown is in the image above) and the bottom of compression spring. Are the O rings inside the tap after I take off the wand, or do you mean the white washer ring that I can remove between the tap and the nut?

To your comment in bold, I observed the machine when I last had it open a week or so back and there is no abnormalities that my untrained eye can see. The machine sucked up water into the boiler when necessary, heated up and the vacuum breaker exhausted excess pressure during this process normally. When pulling a shot nothing unusual was happening inside, no noises or leaks, same with steaming and hot water.

Finally I had a PID, it came with the machine from the listing, I find it very useful along with @HowardSmith's guide on HX temps.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

4. I mean the O ring inside the nut, where the wand exits. You should lube the bottom of the ball regularly (in addition to what you're doing). This can be done without removing the wand, just move it through it's range of motion and dab moly on it with a cocktail stick, it works it's way in.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

@DavecUK Water rate is approx 75-80ml in 15 seconds through the group, so circa 5ml per second. Is that about right?

Have descaled the machine tonight and will open up the E61 and inspect, relube and check the steam/hot water joints too in the morning. Will report back with images and results in the cup.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@pandabear flow rate seems ok


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

Forgot to mention that I had a lot of chrome flakes in the water yesterday, kept flushing through the boiler until none left. The boiler isn't chromed inside, is it?

Further updates from this morning:

Took apart the E61 mushroom and lever assembly, fully inspected and cleaned in more citric acid. Put back together and the machine didn't want to warm up until I opened the group for a couple of seconds, is this normal? After that I waited for full warm up and backflushed a couple more times, then pulled this shot:

https://streamable.com/mnz4gg (I also pulled this second shot after, shows a better view of flow in the basket: https://streamable.com/zykub1)

Points to note - unfortunately I ran out of my old beans literally yesterday and I have a different blend from @BlackCatCoffee now (Twilight). The shot seemed to pull as one of the best in my Pullman basket I've ever had, okay flow and 1:2 in 32 seconds at circa 90c brew temp (dark roast). Taste was definitely not sour, possibly ever so slightly bitter finish but maybe that's the dark roast profile. Definitely wasn't unpleasant.

You'll notice that the pressure jumps straight to 4 bar though, whereas previously (albeit a bad shot, when I had a duff grinder) I was getting the 2-4-10 ramp I described above, that I see in most Mara shot videos including yours Dave:

https://streamable.com/fv125i

The only other difference on that shot was that I was using the stock Lelit basket. Could that really make all the difference? If not, what else could it be? And does it actually indicate an issue?

Regarding milk steaming, @DavecUK the answer is that the steam pressure is repeatable - after I pulled the second shot, I cleared the steam wand and waited for pressure to rise to 1.3-1.5 bar, then steamed and the pressure fell whilst steaming to ~0.5 bar and then started climbing back to ~1.3 steadily after I shut off the steam tap. The image I attached of the pressure gauge is about 5 seconds after steaming ended and with the gauge climbing back after being down at circa ~0.5.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I had a look at the shot pressure...out of the 3 videos I could only see the gauge in the gusher. in the others you either started videoing at 4 bar, or the cup obscured the gauge. I don't think that pressure jump is happening as you think it is. I watched and it seemed to go to 2 bar quite rapidly and then gradually to 4 bar. Your pump flow rate seems fine, so I don't believe you have a problem. Do a shot that's not a gusher.... and video the gauge. Make sure it's a normal shot, not part of a trial series. You walk up after 30 minutes or so, grind and prep, then pull the shot...so the machine is reacting normally. I really don't think you have a problem or anything to worry about, could even be the gauge has slackened a tad in the very early part of its travel. If the coffee is high in the basket when tamped, then the pressure will rise to 4 bar rapidly, check out my tech tour power on video, and you will see it rise fast with a partially filled blind filter.

No there's no chrome in the boiler...the manufacturers don't do that. It's either copper, with Nickel coated *outside*, or stainless in the MaraX.

As long as the basket is clean, the stock basket is perfectly good

Top of the group looks nice and clean and the pins, you did a good job there



> Regarding milk steaming, @DavecUK the answer is that the steam pressure is repeatable - after I pulled the second shot, I cleared the steam wand and waited for pressure to rise to 1.3-1.5 bar, then steamed and the pressure fell whilst steaming to ~0.5 bar and then started climbing back to ~1.3 steadily after I shut off the steam tap. The image I attached of the pressure gauge is about 5 seconds after steaming ended and with the gauge climbing back after being down at circa ~0.5.


 The temperature of Mara X is electronically set, you can't change it. When the pressure does rise, if you wait for it to peak, the heating elements have turned off. I think (it was a long time ago) there is a built-in delay before they fire up again. Otherwise, it would be forever hitting them, and with no PID, it would be undesirable. Try steaming with it on the rise while the heating elements are still on and just before they peak. If that doesn't work, it would seem to be impossible for your steaming not to be right. The problem is you have only one way of fixing it if you believe it's wrong. Replace temp probe...if that doesn't work, replace Gicar box, if that doesn't work...then who knows. Could even be your voltage is low sometimes....?


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

Sorry, I didn't check the video and it's cut off the very start, however that first video link - take my word for it, it goes from 0 straight up to 4 at that rate, it's pure coincidence it starts at 2 bar there! It's markedly different from the gusher video, where it goes 2-4-10. This goes 4-10. Those two first links are normal shots too, as you said, walk up > grind > prep and pull, they were not trials. I drank both drinks.

Attached a photo of my coffee puck depth once tamped, I almost always dose 18g so it's a constant really, I've had 2-4-10 ramps with it prior to it now doing 4-10. I also have done coin tests with my pucks and I get a very light imprint with a 10p piece, so all is good with depth and headspace IMO. Will check out the video though too!

Fundamentally though the shot is probably the best I've pulled in a while - previous to this I was getting really patchy extractions, multiple streams and horrible taste like I said in my original post. I'm far happier with the extractions I pulled this morning, *my wonder is if there is more I can do to make it better within my system now *hence questioning the pressure ramp.

Will try the milk steaming on the pressure rise after water purge and let you know how that goes, will be tomorrow morning when I next pull a shot. Don't forget that this is a Mara and not a Mara X!

Side note - I was eyeing up potentially moving up from this to an X, the upgrade would cost me circa £250. Do you think it's worth the money? From what I can tell the key differences are the heat loop, less-noisy pump and temperature 3-way setting. Is it worth the upgrade or is there more to it than that?


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)




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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I think for £250...yes it's worth the upgrade, having used both machines.....It will be interesting to see what others think.


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