# Heating Beans Before Grinding?!



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Warning this post is probably not suitable for the purists out there....

Errrr, so I might have finally lost the plot (stop your sniggering!!!). After reading Maxwell Colonna's very interesting blog posts on grinding I decided to try heating my beans before grinding. My kitchen is very cold and summarising the info in the articles, cold beans mean less even particle size distribution and more importantly lots more fines. Armed with this information and making good with what I have at home I weighed out some beans into a metal container and then heated them over my gas hob until warm (but not hot, more experimenting to be done here) swirling them round constantly before grinding.

So what happened?

I can grind at least a whole notch finer on the EK and maintain the same flow rate for brewed, espresso pours seem to produce a more stable flow. In the cup there is much less bitterness an more body and smoothness.

It's early days and it adds a bit of faff to the routine but if you fancy trying to extract a little more love out of your beans then why not give it a go!?

Here are the two posts by Maxwell with the info.

https://colonnaandsmalls.wordpress.com/2015/02/01/grinding-the-dark-matter-of-coffee-a-think-piece/

https://colonnaandsmalls.wordpress.com/2015/02/03/the-heat-is-on-more-grinding-puzzles/


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

You should watch the Tamper Tantrum talk on the NS Mythos One

They did quite a bit of research into temperature whilst grinding, and how it affects the grind. The grinder heats up and maintains a stable temp!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Grind straight out the roaster...

Oh dear, opening the floodgates on resting again.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

froggystyle said:


> Grind straight out the roaster...
> 
> Oh dear, opening the floodgates on resting again.


We do sometimes , my lord you need to grind mega mega fine!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Gonna try it this weekend when i roast i reckon.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

aaronb said:


> You should watch the Tamper Tantrum talk on the NS Mythos One
> 
> They did quite a bit of research into temperature whilst grinding, and how it affects the grind. The grinder heats up and maintains a stable temp!


Yeah saw that but it didn't go into much detail about why or what was happening, unless I missed something, which is highly possible....


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

Makes perfect sense, the colder things are the more brittle they are.

Might be an idea if you put your beans on top of your cup rack (if you have one, not sure of your machine - L1?).


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Beanosaurus said:


> Makes perfect sense, the colder things are the more brittle they are.
> 
> Might be an idea if you put your beans on top of your cup rack (if you have one, not sure of your machine - L1?).


Yeah, my only concern with that is what the ongoing effect on the beans is if you keep them heated. I would expect this to increase the rate of degradation but I have no evidence to back this up


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Maybe get a heating belt for the EK hopper!


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Maybe get a heating belt for the EK hopper!


Wrap it in an electric blanket


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

If you leave the EK running for 15 mins prior to grinding, the grounds are quite warm, just like the mythos .


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> Yeah, my only concern with that is what the ongoing effect on the beans is if you keep them heated. I would expect this to increase the rate of degradation but I have no evidence to back this up


I speculate that an increased rate in CO2 loss would occur over a prolonged period, possibly portion out your doses before bed time and put em in a container on top of the tray ready to be used when you get up in the morning.

Alternatively I dare you to put them in the MICROWAVE.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Beanosaurus said:


> I speculate that an increased rate in CO2 loss would occur over a prolonged period, possibly portion out your doses before bed time and put em in a container on top of the tray ready to be used when you get up in the morning.
> 
> Alternatively I dare you to put them in the MICROWAVE.


I was thinking about it...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hmmm few questions and a couple of statements...

Yes you have lost it ......i don't have a problem with this though , i dont think i ever " had it " to begin with ....

Id like to see some shots at the same grind and brew ratio refracted , one heated beans , one not ......

When you say notch are are we talking that small micro number on your dial?

Have you tried beans in a design tin , on top of the cup warmer on the V???


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Hmmm few questions and a couple of statements...
> 
> Yes you have lost it ......i don't have a problem with this though , i dont think i ever " had it " to begin with ....
> 
> ...


I might refract some stuff this weekend but taste wins over refect for me.

Whole number (is as far as I've gone so far) tighter on the 3FE dial on my EK.

I don't have a design tin and I have cups on my cup warmer. In all seriousness, I don't really like the idea of them being warm all the time due to thermal degradation, heatOD is where it's at. I might microwave some stuff over the weekend and refract that, what's the TDS of lasagne?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Taste and refraction aren't in competition are they or mutually exclusive of each other ? I don't want you to Change what you doing based on what the refraction tells you.

 I'd just be interested in where any potential effect or differences are occurring ...

Thought it might give us an idea of what is changing using that extraction with this method . that is making the drink more tasty ...higher extraction yield? Higher TDs?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Will warming the beans bring oils closer to the surface?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Taste and refraction aren't in competition are they or mutually exclusive of each other ? I don't want you to Change what you doing based on what the refraction tells you.
> 
> I'd just be interested in where any potential effect or differences are occurring ...
> 
> Thought it might give us an idea of what is changing using that extraction with this method . that is making the drink more tasty ...higher extraction yield? Higher TDs?


If I have time over the weekend then I'll see what I can knock together. It might not change the EY at all, could just decrease the amount of over-extraction of fines and under extraction of boulders.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Spence I will try this tonight/over the weekend and will report back


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> If I have time over the weekend then I'll see what I can knock together. It might not change the EY at all, could just decrease the amount of over-extraction of fines and under extraction of boulders.


Cheers


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> If I have time over the weekend then I'll see what I can knock together. It might not change the EY at all, could just decrease the amount of over-extraction of fines and under extraction of boulders.


Doesn't seem logical that it would make smaller particles less soluble & larger particles more soluble at the same time?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Doesn't seem logical that it would make smaller particles less soluble & larger particles more soluble at the same time?


I'm saying (probably badly) that there are less fines and less boulders in the ground coffee hence they contribute less in the over extracted and under extracted parts of the brew.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Well I tried this tonight. Several shots pulled grinding finer and finer on the k10, tamping harder and harder. Best I magabed was 36g out from 18g in over 27 seconds (I'd normally be looking for no more than 28g out so yes, a bit fast) and the results were..............

No better or different than not heating the beans in fact slightly worse.

I might be suffering poor technique but my I total view is that as highly as I think of you Spence old fruit, and for as much as I'd happily hand you my very last rolo, the early indications for me are that this idea is total bollocks


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm might try and weigh some beans, put them in an airtight shot tin and leave them ontop of my machine as it warms up.

Goes against all my bean beliefs though.....air, heat, moisture bad. Can't comment till I've tried it. Bring forth the bean warmers


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

CamV6 said:



> Well I tried this tonight. Several shots pulled grinding finer and finer on the k10, tamping harder and harder. Best I magabed was 36g out from 18g in over 27 seconds (I'd normally be looking for no more than 28g out so yes, a bit fast) and the results were..............
> 
> No better or different than not heating the beans in fact slightly worse.
> 
> I might be suffering poor technique but my I total view is that as highly as I think of you Spence old fruit, and for as much as I'd happily hand you my very last rolo, the early indications for me are that this idea is total bollocks


Lol, it's that shoddy grinder you've got mate!









In all seriousness thought I've mostly been doing brewed which would benefit greatly from less fines.

The point is that you need to grind finer with the warm beans, you are still aiming to get 28 in 28 or whatever you usually aim for. This is not about speeding up flow rates, it's about grinding finer overall but achieving less fine over extraction. Might be an EK only thing, the effect might not work as well on conical burrs, who knows, might not even be making my coffee better.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I'm might try and weigh some beans, put them in an airtight shot tin and leave them ontop of my machine as it warms up.
> 
> Goes against all my bean beliefs though.....air, heat, moisture bad. Can't comment till I've tried it. Bring forth the bean warmers


To be fair, you're heating them for a bout 20-30 seconds, just a few days previous they are rocking along at 200c


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I've also noticed loads less visible chaff and static when using heated beans which is confusing me greatly....


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

I suspect it may be an EK thing tbh. It just made the beans behave and taste like they were old and stale. Even though I was still running a bit fast when I gave up I just wasn't getting any difference at all where I would have expected to start to discern something new

Shitty bloody grinder


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> To be fair, you're heating them for a bout 20-30 seconds, just a few days previous they are rocking along at 200c


Valid point Spence, I guess they do see a fair bit of heat. Will give it a go and will report back.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

tamping should always remain constant, harder tamps normally equally lower extraction yield


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Do you reckon leaving them on top of the machine in a tin gives you them enough heat? Tried it this morning seemed to be a bit quicker shot. Possibly just my poor technique


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Do you reckon leaving them on top of the machine in a tin gives you them enough heat? Tried it this morning seemed to be a bit quicker shot. Possibly just my poor technique


Yes, should be enough heat. I left a bag on my machine yesterday and they were warm to the touch which is what I was aiming for.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Clima pro heats to what, 35 degrees?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Clima pro heats to what, 35 degrees?


Thought it was 60c, maybe I misread!


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Stand corrected, says between 35-45c.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Top of the machine should be plenty hot enough for that


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