# Replacement single basket for BE?



## Dodds25 (Dec 19, 2019)

I like to have a lot of short drinks so tend to pull singles, otherwise I'd be fibrillating by midday. I keep finding myself between grinder settings and having to overpack the basket on one setting or underpack it on the next. The double basket will cope with quite a range of fill levels - the single not so much. I was going to try another basket in the hope that it might be a bit more forgiving. I know Decent do a 10g one that will take 8 - 12g, so that seems like a good option. I just wondered if there were any other recommendations before I order.

Cheers


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The only way of getting different basket sizes on the small basket sized Sage machines is to modify one intended for La Spaziale. The rim size needs to be reduced. Another problem as well they will hold more than their stated capacity so can make good buckets if needed. One is popular with milk based drinkers. I modified one that is intended for pods and sold on ebay. On a BE it holds circa 14g. Very useful as it fills the hole between the single and the double.

I used the single a lot. To go any further on that I need a link to the beans you are using and full details of how you are brewing in terms of what you expect, dose and the pressure gauge reading when you brew plus time. Also the ratio you are aiming at.

Whoops another question are you weighing beans in or using it with beans in the hopper.

John

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## Dodds25 (Dec 19, 2019)

Ah yes it says on the Decent website that it's known to be compatible with Sage, but the Oracle and other machines use a bigger pf than the BE. Well at least I found out before ordering. I'm not sure I'm up for metalwork. Is it the diameter of the rim that needs to be reduced, or the height? If it's the diameter I might give it a whirl, as I suspect there's more tolerance there.

New beans this morning - slightly sour but drinkable at 3:1, 7.2g in the pf. I'll go to 8g tomorrow and stick with 3:1. It's a bit longer than I really want but experience suggests if I go down a notch it will be on the point of choking and will be bitter even at 2:1, so I'll stick with the current setting and see how much more coffee I can get in before I run out of headroom.

One thing I haven't explored is whether changing the setting on the internal ring just moves the external ring over one (so 3/3 is the same as 4/2, where the first number is the internal setting and the second one is the external setting) or whether e.g. 3/3 might be between 4/2 and 4/1.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Why are you putting so little in the PF? Don't change the dose all the time, stick to 10g or 11g.

Is 24g of shot really too much?

Bitterness at 1:2 is likely to have a cause other than over-extraction & if you're within a hair of choking, you're more likely to be under-extracting. Either way, if the smallest difference you can apply results in a choked shot, it sounds like you need to be a little coarser.

The 54mm Sage single basket allows you to make coffee just as consistently as any other brew method. It's not particularly finicky.


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## Dodds25 (Dec 19, 2019)

I don't think I'd get 10-11g in there. At around this grind level the range seems to be more like 7-9g (a least it has been up to now - maybe it depends more on the bean than I had realised). There was no special reason for starting these beans at 7.2g other than that was what came out and it was within the range I had in mind. Next chance I'll get to have a play will be tomorrow morning but I'll see how much more I can put in.

1 x 24g shot is fine but one every hour or so is too much.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Dodds25 said:


> Ah yes it says on the Decent website that it's known to be compatible with Sage, but the Oracle and other machines use a bigger pf than the BE. Well at least I found out before ordering. I'm not sure I'm up for metalwork. Is it the diameter of the rim that needs to be reduced, or the height? If it's the diameter I might give it a whirl, as I suspect there's more tolerance there.
> 
> New beans this morning - slightly sour but drinkable at 3:1, 7.2g in the pf. I'll go to 8g tomorrow and stick with 3:1. It's a bit longer than I really want but experience suggests if I go down a notch it will be on the point of choking and will be bitter even at 2:1, so I'll stick with the current setting and see how much more coffee I can get in before I run out of headroom.
> 
> One thing I haven't explored is whether changing the setting on the internal ring just moves the external ring over one (so 3/3 is the same as 4/2, where the first number is the internal setting and the second one is the external setting) or whether e.g. 3/3 might be between 4/2 and 4/1.


 You should check the grinder as per that link I posted - I've updated it a bit so that it can be checked 1st rather than finding out by grinding. I don't know how step changes on the outer burr relate to the usual ones. It might gain but a pain to have to do and I don't think it should be needed unless the grinder hasn't been calibrated when it was made.

Going on my most used bean that take up more space for weight than any others I have used up to 9.4g should be fine. Probably 10 in most cases. If the puck sticks to the shower screen add a couple of 1/10 more which most people find stops that even on the double. Go higher and the taste is likely to drop off but it can be used like that. Knocking the puck out gets more like using a sledge hammer. You can probably go down to 7g but too low if the puck is rather wet. That can result in a sour taste. Coffee is a strange mix of extraction from various grain sizes so in some situations it can extract far too much from fines - that's way too simple an explanation.

Going higher can result in the portafilter being harder to get on. When it's fitted it has a mechanical advantage so need to be a bit careful about this. The grouphead seals tend to be rather hard initially. I never broke my machine doing silly things but bear this in mind.  I did have a brief period when I was tamping further when the portafilter was fitted,

You may have read about light tamping - forget it. It's best to start some where safe and play about later. I feel the same about stirring grinds. Heavier tamping is more capable of handling clumps and variations than light anyway.

On these grinders and others it's important to set coarser by going too coarse and then finer and also when beans are in the hopper waste some each time the setting is changed - that really will matter on the single. Also when weighing in run them longer than you think is needed to ensure all comes out. Sage grinders are pretty good at that but a ring is left around the grind chamber. It gets pretty solid at some point and best left there. There is also some left at the bottom of the grind chamber - same again. Contamination is rather marginal when beans are changed so I just drank what came out. Couple of shots and that should go.

So weight wise you have a lot of scope on either of the baskets. Single to double is a big jump though.

Then comes pressure. You can work anywhere in the blue sector or past it but as I mentioned the volumetrics wont work out well past some point. I'd guess a lot of dtp users are using it like that. It gets stronger coffee and often that's favourite. If it's the only option use it like that. You'll need to set the volume control to some level that covers how much water is going through it.

Then comes time. It isn't that easy to set exact ratios what ever is used. People are fond of weighing shots out. There shot times will vary. I make life difficult by using a fixed time and do all sorts to obtain a limited range of ratios that suite me and the bean. There is scope on that but it's a try it and see. I reckon often in excess of 10%. Found because with fixed shot times I have to wait for an error that I can correct on a stepless grinder.

I'll post on modding baskets in a while. And what I think is a bug in these Sage machines.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

When I finally tried tasting 3 drinks made on the trot for the family I had a bit of a surprise. Totally different taste especially between the first and the second. I put it down to a cold portafilter and preheated by a shot through an empty pressurised basket. That gives the machine the flush they all need anyway and it's an easy habit to get into if a portafilter extraction tool is bought. Less than £5 from memory including postage which is also quick.

When I bought the DB I did the same and didn't one day and found that it didn't make any difference. What I suspect is happening on their thermocoil machines is a limitation of PID. If an accurate temperature there is no way it can get there that quickly. The more accurate that is the longer it will take. So I'm pretty certain I was really getting the thermocoil to the right temperature. Some one else mentioned an alternative - run some steam off. Needn't be much. All machines can need a flush to get rid of air before a shot is pulled so I'd do that before the steam. Theory but it makes sense, it's not unusual to hear water boiling off on these machines as they are used because PID etc can shed heat and heaters can't suddenly be made to go cooler. That is why when near set point they have to heat slowly even on boiler machines.

The thermojet machines may be the same.

The other fault is hot water temperature. Mixed feeling now but I expected hot coffee. I get it now on the DB for one drink but apart from a couple of sips I let it cool as taste is far more apparent. I fixed the hot aspect by switching to borosilicate mugs but many many people make americano from the kettle as many machines have some sort of issue running off significant amounts of hot water.  At least with a BE as much as anyone wants can be run off. Curiously my amount coincided with when the machine decided to turn it off. It's ok really on the DB that way but I now use bigger shots than I did.  about 10ml more but with the mugs and their handles I can see that variation so for no good reason at all I turn it off at the same point if the portafilter gets cleaned quickly enough. Perhaps Sage have some reason for sticking to the Kw they use as the only other way of heating more would be to slow the flow down.

The problem with brewing and all of the variations I mentioned is that there is no real way of knowing what the effect is unless they are tried. I also wish a link to the beans had been posted as it can be a case of picking an unsuitable bean. I like cupping notes. Not accurate on an espresso machine but give a good idea of what is there. Many other types in real terms are mostly advertising and any brewing instructions shown leave me wondering what machine they were brewed on.

I filed the rim down on a lathe to reduce the rim of the basket I mentioned. They are stainless so need a decent file. A guide of a sort could be obtained by fitting to the portafilter and marking around it. If too big they wont fit into the machine. It took a while on a lathe as not easy to set up and get at. If I did one again I'd try an off hand grinder resting the rim on it's rest but people need to be comfortable about using them. They don't cost much at the cheap end and should be adequate and can be useful for other things. There is bound to be instructions on using them safely on youtube - it's mostly common sense and not pressing things on too hard and going slowly. It doesn't need to be terribly accurate. The main thing is some rim left and that it fits. A portafilter extraction tool will be handy for getting it out. Mine is put away at the moment but recollect that it could be ridged.

John

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