# Oracle - single cup button vs two cup



## mac (Jul 13, 2019)

New oracle owner and love the machine, but I find a double shot is way too strong. I tried the single basket but have been told to avoid it as the results arent great. So, I've been experimenting with the single cup button option.

I've read that I should be aiming for 50-60ml total output when using the double cup button, so would it make sense that I should be aiming for ~30ml when I use the single cup button? It's currently set to factory defaults - a 20 sec pour (double is 30), and I have to set the grid way too fine to hit anywhere below 35ml.

Can anyone give me some pointers please?


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

mac said:


> New oracle owner and love the machine, but I find a double shot is way too strong. I tried the single basket but have been told to avoid it as the results arent great. So, I've been experimenting with the single cup button option.
> 
> I've read that I should be aiming for 50-60ml total output when using the double cup button, so would it make sense that I should be aiming for ~30ml when I use the single cup button? It's currently set to factory defaults - a 20 sec pour (double is 30), and I have to set the grid way too fine to hit anywhere below 35ml.
> 
> Can anyone give me some pointers please?


 What pointers do you need? General guidance is that you should get double the output (weight) - known as the yield, as you put in - known as the dose. Using this logic, the common go-to measurements for starting out are:

18g in (dose), 36g out (yield).

You can vary strength on this by time. The recommended is anywhere between 25-35s. The Sage Oracle has about 7s worth of preinfusion, it's arguable as to whether include this in the shot time, as it is the time when the puck is first exposed to water, therefore solids start dissolving. This is all down to preference really, and what is to your taste. I used to pull about a 25s shot with the 7s preinfusion. Putting my total shot time at 32s. You can mess about with this later though

Your new parameters would be therefore:

18g dose, 36g yield in 32s.

From here, it's recommended to keep the dose and yield the same, while you figure out your ideal grind size and get it in the time range. The best tell of whether a coffee is properly extracted is by its bitterness/sourness. There's a lot of guides out there about how to determine whether a shot is over/underextracted based on these flavours.

The machine you have is volumetric. Meaning that it will put out an amount of water through the coffee puck. Note that all this water doesn't find its way into your cup as some of the coffee grinds absorb it. There is a manual mode on these machines as well, and that is what is commonly recommended as you can completely control your yield (and also how much preinfusion you can get, and you can experiment with that too).

It is *EXTREMELY IMPORTANT *that you measure by *WEIGHT,* not volume. If you don't already, buy yourself a cheap set of scales with 0.1g increments. I can't stress how useful and helpful they are for learning about this. You also need to ensure you're using a basket that isn't labelled as "Dual Wall", and it is the double (larger of the two) baskets.

I haven't spoke much about single shots as they're difficult to get right unless you know what you're doing. If you want a single shot, pull a double shot and use a shot splitter on the bottom of the portafilter and split it into two individual shots.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mac said:


> New oracle owner and love the machine, but I find a double shot is way too strong. I tried the single basket but have been told to avoid it as the results arent great. So, I've been experimenting with the single cup button option.
> 
> I've read that I should be aiming for 50-60ml total output when using the double cup button, so would it make sense that I should be aiming for ~30ml when I use the single cup button? It's currently set to factory defaults - a 20 sec pour (double is 30), and I have to set the grid way too fine to hit anywhere below 35ml.
> 
> Can anyone give me some pointers please?


 Oracle from memory is a 22g dose, and it isnt set up to alter easily. If the coffee is too strong for this dose put more water through it

If you are using the single basket , i m not sure what it doses , lets say 11 ish .

Perhaps grind into the pf with a single basket and tip it out and weigh it to check ( before you pull a shot with it )

Use one of the buttons to manually stop the shot. Try 35g out , if you dint have scales aim for 35ml ish , if too strong then aim for 40ml ish .

Time wise , total time from button on dont stress too much , 25-35 seconds ball park but stop the shot by Volume or weight as opposed to time


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## mac (Jul 13, 2019)

Hey @Cooffe and @Mrboots2u, thanks for your replies! I don't think I was clear in my initial post. I'm using the standard double basket which I think is as @Mrboots2u said, approx 22g. I've got the double cup scenario covered and can create two decent espressos with a weight of ~30g each. What I'm asking is, should I be aiming for the single cup button to output ~30g? Sounds like a silly question, but I can't find the answer anywhere.

If the single cup button does create a single shot, why do most people seem use the 2 cup button to pour 2 separate shots and pour one away?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mac said:


> Hey @Cooffe and @Mrboots2u, thanks for your replies! I don't think I was clear in my initial post. I'm using the standard double basket which I think is as @Mrboots2u said, approx 22g. I've got the double cup scenario covered and can create two decent espressos with a weight of ~30g each. What I'm asking is, should I be aiming for the single cup button to output ~30g? Sounds like a silly question, but I can't find the answer anywhere.
> 
> If the single cup button does create a single shot, why do most people seem use the 2 cup button to pour 2 separate shots and pour one away?


 Ingore the buttons, run the shot until you have a desired, volume or weight.


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## mac (Jul 13, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ingore the buttons, run the shot until you have a desired, volume or weight.


 True, I'd still like to know what its purpose is though?!


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

mac said:


> Hey @Cooffe and @Mrboots2u, thanks for your replies! I don't think I was clear in my initial post. I'm using the standard double basket which I think is as @Mrboots2u said, approx 22g. I've got the double cup scenario covered and can create two decent espressos with a weight of ~30g each. What I'm asking is, should I be aiming for the single cup button to output ~30g? Sounds like a silly question, but I can't find the answer anywhere.
> If the single cup button does create a single shot, why do most people seem use the 2 cup button to pour 2 separate shots and pour one away?


Using the single shot button with a double basket (so a double dose) will give you a shorter, stronger double shot. All it'll be doing is changing the ratio.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

mac said:


> True, I'd still like to know what its purpose is though?!


If it's set up right it's purpose is to get a single shot with the single basket, just like the double shot button is to get a double through the double basket.


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## mac (Jul 13, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> If it's set up right it's purpose is to get a single shot with the single basket, just like the double shot button is to get a double through the double basket.


 Ahhh, interesting, thank you! Can I ask, where did you find this info? I couldn't find it anywhere, and the white glove service rep had no idea either.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

mac said:


> Ahhh, interesting, thank you! Can I ask, where did you find this info? I couldn't find it anywhere, and the white glove service rep had no idea either.


Wow, that doesn't bode well for the caliber of the bloke they sent out to do the white glove service. It's pretty standard on any machine that has volumetrics/gravimetrics though you can set them up any way you like.
You could for example, set the double hutton to give a set dose for whatever ratio you settle on & the single for a small flush or a different ratio for a different bean. It probably won't be quite as accurate as manually pulling a shot & weighing the output every time but can be more convenient.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> Wow, that doesn't bode well for the caliber of the bloke they sent out to do the white glove service. It's pretty standard on any machine that has volumetrics/gravimetrics though you can set them up any way you like.
> You could for example, set the double hutton to give a set dose for whatever ratio you settle on & the single for a small flush or a different ratio for a different bean. It probably won't be quite as accurate as manually pulling a shot & weighing the output every time but can be more convenient.


 Honestly the consistency of the one and two cup buttons is pretty variable , the flow mech on these isnt comparable to volumetric machine.

To the OP when you change coffee's and or grind it will mean possible reprogramming the button ( IMHO )


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Honestly the consistency of the one and two cup buttons is pretty variable , the flow mech on these isnt comparable to volumetric machine.
> 
> To the OP when you change coffee's and or grind it will mean possible reprogramming the button ( IMHO )


 This is 100% correct. With every grind change, the buttons need to be re-programmed otherwise you end up with different yields each time - PITA if consistency is you're thing. Better off using scales and the manual function. The volumetric function is great if you're banging out a few drinks for friends and wanting to steam whilst the extraction is going on. Then scales are a PITA! You have the option to do both which is a good thing.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

lake_m said:


> This is 100% correct. With every grind change, the buttons need to be re-programmed otherwise you end up with different yields each time - PITA if consistency is you're thing. Better off using scales and the manual function. The volumetric function is great if you're banging out a few drinks for friends and wanting to steam whilst the extraction is going on. Then scales are a PITA! You have the option to do both which is a good thing.


 Oracle is auto steamer anyway so you dint have to focus on that, just stopping the shot


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