# The urge to upgrade



## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

Hi all , have been using a gaggia classic for some time now and have been quite pleased with the machine delivering decent espresso shots - most of the time







I think inconsistency is down to me rather than the gaggia as I have only weighed coffee in and coffee out on a couple of occasions preferring to go by eye







and to be honest I don't see ' Barista's ' at the coffee shops we visit weighing stuff and their coffee tastes fine !









Anyway , I have been thinking a lot lately about upgrading to a HX type machine semi commercial job but at £600 + to well over 1K do I really need it ?

When I look at the gaggia it's a nice little compact machine taking up very little counter space delivers 10 bar (adjusted OPV) at around correct temperature , produces a decent espresso shot plus makes a pretty good job of steaming milk for cappuccino's so other than buying a new machine because it looks fab how would it better the gaggia ?

As far as coffee consumption goes me and the mrs have a Americano after our evening meal mon-fri plus a few more on a weekend with me having a couple of espresso shots in between









So perhaps you can convince me to start looking at these lovely shiny machines (especially the Rocket







) or should I stop dreaming and keep to the gaggia !


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

More expensive machines in that bracket , more temperature at stable , easier to produce great espresso with less faff. Less wait time , better steam power . More shiny . Barista don't weigh as a lot of them don't have time , grinders they use are set to plus or minus 0.5 g dose tolerances . Good ones can spot by eye and taste adjustment that need to be made.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If your happy with machine and skillz then perhaps more taste can be had from changing the grinder ( what do you use now ? )


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## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> If your happy with machine and skillz then perhaps more taste can be had from changing the grinder ( what do you use now ? )


Hi Mrboots2u , my grinder is a nuova simonelli eureka , a bit of a beast


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## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> More expensive machines in that bracket , more temperature at stable , easier to produce great espresso with less faff. Less wait time , better steam power . More shiny . Barista don't weigh as a lot of them don't have time , grinders they use are set to plus or minus 0.5 g dose tolerances . *Good ones can spot by eye and taste adjustment that need to be made.*
> 
> I must fall into that category then


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

emin-j said:


> Hi Mrboots2u , my grinder is a nuova simonelli eureka , a bit of a beast


Eureka is Beastish grinder wise.......









Ill stick by my first post then , gaggia and good grinder can make great shots

Hx and DB makes making great shots, easier and more consistent and quicker.

Plus if you are of a mind with DB you can alter brew temp etc to the roast profile of the coffee you are using

And steam quicker and more milk

And more shiny.

Ifs any coffee machine worth £1000-£2000 that some of us spend . Probably not , its a first world problem .

I bought my machine to make my coffee life simpler , easier and more enjoyable . Is it nearly 10 times better than a gaggia ? Proabably not . For me its a lot less frustrating and time consuming to use .

And it provides me with a lot of pleasure doing so .

Oh and it makes amazing coffee, when i med up it still makes drinkable coffee. But thats my fault in general

Simple answer - buy a new machine , you know you want to..... listen to the inner man voice

New shiny toy...new shiny toy.....


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## badger28 (Jan 5, 2013)

I have recently upgraded from a classic to a fracino cherub and consider it a worthwhile upgrade.

I noticed an instant improvement in the texture of my espressos. They were creamier with far better mouth feel.

The shots taste similar at the moment however the frequency of me producing a bad shot is far lower.

Steam power is out of this world.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The only regret you will have is not doing it sooner


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## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

Thanks' Guys you just want me to spend my money









I have noticed that if I order an Americano at one of our fav coffee shops (not Costa







) the texture of their drink seems a thicker consistency than when I make the same drink with the gaggia , I did put it down to the beans they use but after trying countless variety's of beans (now using Organic Sumatra and very nice too) I suppose it could be the machine ? I just struggle with the thoughts that the gaggia puts a consistent 10 bar pressure out at a 'within range' temperature so providing I do my bit why should it not produce an espresso shot close to say the more expensive machines ?

Obviously the build quality between the gaggia and the high end machines is miles apart but it still comes down to 10 bar + right temp +good grind/beans = good espresso ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

IS there a PID on the Gaggia? HX`s will have a pstat DB's a PID

If not how do you know where the temperature is?

Mouth feel could be down to using different baskets ( do you use VST? ) and grinder, bigger burrs or different burrs ( conical ) produce different mouth fell and tastes.


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## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> IS there a PID on the Gaggia? HX`s will have a pstat DB's a PID
> 
> If not how do you know where the temperature is?
> 
> Mouth feel could be down to using different baskets ( do you use VST? ) and grinder, bigger burrs or different burrs ( conical ) produce different mouth fell and tastes.


No PID or VST just standard pf dose approx 14gms.

I don't know what the temperature is when pulling a shot just rely on the standard thermostat to do its stuff although I try to hit the brew switch just as the brew light comes on so at the top of the heat range - I hope.

Thanks' for the answers guys , really interesting


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

emin-j said:


> No PID or VST just standard pf dose approx 14gms.
> 
> I don't know what the temperature is when pulling a shot just rely on the standard thermostat to do its stuff although I try to hit the brew switch just as the brew light comes on so at the top of the heat range - I hope.
> 
> Thanks' for the answers guys , really interesting


I think in there you have identified the difference a lot of the good coffee shops use a much higher dose than 14g anywhere up to 22g in some cases, this can give the shot the extra mouthfeel you seem to be missing, a Classic is more than capable of pulling thick rich espresso, but you would need to get into weighing input and output and maybe buy a VST basket or an IMS one. It's worth the £5 on a set of scales from ebay and your standard Gaggia unpressurised basket should be ok dosing up to 18g or so, give that a go and report back.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hi temp surfing on a gaggia is still somewhat inconsistent , in terms of the temperate up your hitting .

Bigger boiler HX machines or DB and commercial machines will have less of a temperature variance when pulling a shot , meaning more consistent expresso (if all other variables are equal ) .


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## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

Charliej said:


> I think in there you have identified the difference a lot of the good coffee shops use a much higher dose than 14g anywhere up to 22g in some cases, this can give the shot the extra mouthfeel you seem to be missing, a Classic is more than capable of pulling thick rich espresso, but you would need to get into weighing input and output and maybe buy a VST basket or an IMS one. It's worth the £5 on a set of scales from ebay and your standard Gaggia unpressurised basket should be ok dosing up to 18g or so, give that a go and report back.


Thanks' Charliej , I have in the past considered a VST basket prob 18g version so will give this a go , I have scales but I will be honest and say I only used them on a few occasions until I could visually estimate the approximate dose in the pf plus looking at the finished level of shot weighed and trying to replicate this without weighing , not ideal I know but I cant truthfully see me weighing every shot


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

emin-j said:


> Thanks' Charliej , I have in the past considered a VST basket prob 18g version so will give this a go , I have scales but I will be honest and say I only used them on a few occasions until I could visually estimate the approximate dose in the pf plus looking at the finished level of shot weighed and trying to replicate this without weighing , not ideal I know but I cant truthfully see me weighing every shot


Weighing may seem a bit of a faff to start with but is a cornerstone of getting consistent shots. The level of a shot in the cup or shoot glass will vary from day to day as the beans age and degas, from bean to bean and different lots of the same bean will vary too, which is why volume of the shot or level isn't the best way of measuring output. Also weighing will let you consistently vary your brew ratios to find your ideal shot for each bean.

The Classic can teach you a lot about espresso because of its little foibles and from what you are saying so far, if you upgrade now you will still have these issues but just using a bigger shinier toy.


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## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

All good points CharlieJ

Your no doubt right that weighing the coffee shot when pulling the shot = espresso perfection but if I can produce an acceptable espresso without the faff of weighing the shot I am ok with that , I do appreciate you stressing the importance of weighing the shot though









Our local pub/restaurant have a auto commercial 2 group machine and I wouldn't really call the bar staff ' Baristas ' and their beans seem to 'live' in the hopper for some time but they produce a very nice shot







there is no weighing of anything in or out and I believe the shots are timed on commercial machines their 5lb weight tamp seems to not make a big difference so I can only guess it's the quality of the machine , if it means I have to stretch the cost to a single group commercial machine then that's perhaps the way I should go .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

You don't need a commercial machine to get good espresso and good temp stability, there are plenty of pro sumer machines , that are smaller and make exceptional espresso . Plus you need to be able to plumb the big commercials

they will be very temp stable though making them a lot more forgiving than a gaggia


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

If you don't want to go as far as the usual suspects at around the 1k and would consider a Fracino Cherub HX, keep your eye on the for sale section as I plan to put mine up shortly, which may or may not be of interest to you. It's a significant step up from what you have now for sure&#8230;I went from a Gaggia Deluxe for quite a few years to the Cherub. Night and day.

Cheers.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

emin-j said:


> All good points CharlieJ
> 
> Your no doubt right that weighing the coffee shot when pulling the shot = espresso perfection but if I can produce an acceptable espresso without the faff of weighing the shot I am ok with that , I do appreciate you stressing the importance of weighing the shot though
> 
> ...


The thing is as the saying goes "the Devil is in the details" a WBC competitor would be able to make a far better shot on your setup than you would on a standard WBC setup. Unless you get your shot prep and methodology right no machine will compensate for that. Weighing a shot in and out only adds a few seconds onto the process and the benefits are well worth it. I own a machine (the Sage DB) that has volumetrics like those found on commercial machines, but, I still weight the output at very least on every shot as my grinder gives a very consistent dose. It helps me to diagnose where any issues are and also to vary the "recipe" for every shot and to speed up the dialling in process to minimise waste.

Many of the better coffee shops weigh doses in and out and it is considered that important, that Nuova Simonelli have, under their Victoria Arduino premium brand, introduced a machine that has integral scales in the driptray.


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## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> You don't need a commercial machine to get good espresso and good temp stability, there are plenty of pro sumer machines , that are smaller and make exceptional espresso . Plus you need to be able to plumb the big commercials
> 
> they will be very temp stable though making them a lot more forgiving than a gaggia


Ok Mrboots2u , plumbing in wouldn't be a problem but tank fed would be fine , should I be looking for DB or HX machines ? not over keen on Fracino machines (sorry Wobin







) but do like the Italian machines .


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## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

Charliej said:


> The thing is as the saying goes "the Devil is in the details" a WBC competitor would be able to make a far better shot on your setup than you would on a standard WBC setup. Unless you get your shot prep and methodology right no machine will compensate for that. Weighing a shot in and out only adds a few seconds onto the process and the benefits are well worth it. I own a machine (the Sage DB) that has volumetrics like those found on commercial machines, but, I still weight the output at very least on every shot as my grinder gives a very consistent dose. It helps me to diagnose where any issues are and also to vary the "recipe" for every shot and to speed up the dialling in process to minimise waste.
> 
> Many of the better coffee shops weigh doses in and out and it is considered that important, that Nuova Simonelli have, under their Victoria Arduino premium brand, introduced a machine that has integral scales in the driptray.


I hear what your saying Charliej ............but nope







if our local pub AND our local coffee shop can turn out delicious coffee without weighing in or out

I don't believe it's critical IMO







Have ordered a 18g VST


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

emin-j said:


> I hear what your saying Charliej ............but nope
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They have better machinery that is more forgiving in extraction , and no you don't have to weigh in and out , it's a good guide to start . And help correct taste defects if you get stuck .

Some of the best coffee shops will weigh in an out though also .


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

emin-j said:


> I hear what your saying Charliej ............but nope
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't weigh out every shot, but I do to get the bean dialled in to begin with. I'll still weigh the dose in every time though just because my grinder doesn't do it accurately.

I originally thought the whole weighing shots in and out was really anal till I started doing it and the improvement to my shots was massive.


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## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> They have better machinery that is more forgiving in extraction , and no you don't have to weigh in and out , it's a good guide to start . And help correct taste defects if you get stuck .
> 
> Some of the best coffee shops will weigh in an out though also .


Yes , I can understand the weighing process is necessary if your quest is for espresso perfection but I am happy to settle for just excellent


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

emin-j said:


> Yes , I can understand the weighing process is necessary if your quest is for espresso perfection but I am happy to settle for just excellent


That's not a problem at all . My point was that the temperature stable nature of their machines means that it is more forgiving of a dose being +\- 1 gram , or the grind being slightly off . Where as with a single boiler , and judging temp by boiler light any of these being awry will be amplified by any temperature instability .


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## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I don't weigh out every shot, but I do to get the bean dialled in to begin with. I'll still weigh the dose in every time though just because my grinder doesn't do it accurately.
> 
> I originally thought the whole weighing shots in and out was really anal till I started doing it and the improvement to my shots was massive.


Did start weighing shots in and out but using the ridge on the standard gaggia basket as a guide I have found I can get pretty close to 14.2 g just by eye , and pulling the shot to between the single and double shot line on the shot glass which is where my 30 seconds shot (weighed) ended up I can pull an ok shot .


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

emin-j said:


> Did start weighing shots in and out but using the ridge on the standard gaggia basket as a guide I have found I can get pretty close to 14.2 g just by eye , and pulling the shot to between the single and double shot line on the shot glass which is where my 30 seconds shot (weighed) ended up I can pull an ok shot .


The whole point here, though is that 14.2g dose isn't giving you the mouthfeel you seem to desire, but, if you tried weighing in and out and dosing higher you should be able to get the type of shot you want. The Italian standard of 14g into 60ml for a double espresso is now pretty much dated and the tendency is to use a larger dose. To discover exactly how much coffee you need to use to find your ideal dose to get the result you want and be able to do that consistently means that you need to go through the whole process of weighing so that you then have a "recipe" that you can repeat. Even a variance in dose of +/- 0.5g can make a shot taste and pull completely differently, what you wont have seen, providing the baristas where you drink coffee are any good is that they will be tweaking the grind throughout the day so that they keep on making each coffee as close to identical as they can. Every morning they will have spent time dialling in the grinder for the start of the day as well. As Mr Boots said their machines will also be more temperature stable and from the sound of it have volumetrics to make sure each shot gets the same amount of water and the tweaking of the grind is to make sure the shot runs for the same amount of time. Another point is that if they are not single dosing and keep a weight of beans in the hopper then their grind consistency will be better, even if they are using a doser to grind on demand as some places do.


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## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

Charliej said:


> > The whole point here, though is that 14.2g dose isn't giving you the mouthfeel you seem to desire
> 
> 
> , but, if you tried weighing in and out and dosing higher you should be able to get the type of shot you want. The Italian standard of 14g into 60ml for a double espresso is now pretty much dated and the tendency is to use a larger dose. To discover exactly how much coffee you need to use to find your ideal dose to get the result you want and be able to do that consistently means that you need to go through the whole process of weighing so that you then have a "recipe" that you can repeat. Even a variance in dose of +/- 0.5g can make a shot taste and pull completely differently, what you wont have seen, providing the baristas where you drink coffee are any good is that they will be tweaking the grind throughout the day so that they keep on making each coffee as close to identical as they can. Every morning they will have spent time dialling in the grinder for the start of the day as well. As Mr Boots said their machines will also be more temperature stable and from the sound of it have volumetrics to make sure each shot gets the same amount of water and the tweaking of the grind is to make sure the shot runs for the same amount of time. Another point is that if they are not single dosing and keep a weight of beans in the hopper then their grind consistency will be better, even if they are using a doser to grind on demand as some places do.


Hi Charliej , have ordered a 18g VST basket and will give it a go and will weigh in and out ...to start with


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## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> That's not a problem at all . My point was that the temperature stable nature of their machines means that it is more forgiving of a dose being +\- 1 gram , or the grind being slightly off .
> 
> 
> > Where as with a single boiler
> ...


In your opinion would you say a DB is the way to go ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If you can , saves further upgrades something like a brewtus etc


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## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> If you can , saves further upgrades something like a brewtus etc


As we don't have many cappuccino's or the need to steam quantities of milk what happens to the water in the second boiler ? wont it just sit there festering


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

emin-j said:


> As we don't have many cappuccino's or the need to steam quantities of milk what happens to the water in the second boiler ? wont it just sit there festering


Something like the brewtus can be plumbed and the steam boiler switched off if not used .


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Or if you're not into milk go for a la Parvonii or Caravel. Beautiful looking machines. Quite grinder specific thought. Awesome!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Or if you're not into milk go for a la Parvonii or Caravel. Beautiful looking machines. Quite grinder specific thought. Awesome!


If espresso only ( or actually ristretto ) then caravel is a good call. Super simple to measure the temp on it but no steam .


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