# How Hipsters ruined your coffee



## Spazbarista

http://gu.com/p/3pnzm

Guardian article some of you might enjoy


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## The Systemic Kid

Interesting but nothing new - other than confirming Rayner knows a lot about very little.


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## spune

Ahh I like Rayner. Always an interesting read/listen in my opinion!


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## aaronb

spune said:


> Ahh I like Rayner. Always an interesting read/listen in my opinion!


Yeah with you on that, I like his restaurant reviews but he's a bit off the money on this one. James Hoffman has tweeted that his quotes were changed slightly in the article



> James Hoffmann @jimseven
> 
> What got lost: I don't think SQM should be "as different as possible". I want London's coffee as diverse as possible.


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## NickR

I think Jay Rayner was spot on. I went to the London Coffee Festival and was shocked by the bitterness of the espresso. I really can't understand this trend. Hopefully it is just a short lived blip.


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## Mrboots2u

We can all taste the same thing differently....

The review complains of sour espresso while you Nick complain of bitter tasting . These are two entirely different things

You could both be tasting the same expresso and calling it different tastes , whilst I could taste it and think it's yummy,









There is room In the world for both styles and tastes and plenty of places to get either in London especially . In a lot of the provinces your more likely to get burnt over roasted and over extracted espresso than a lighter tasting , lighter roasted one and where is no choice other than a chain. This is a shame as people then don't even get to experience which one they may like ....


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## The Systemic Kid

Creases me on Master chef when so called food critics, Rayner included, criticise a dish for being over/undercooked and over/under seasoned then the camera cuts to Michel Roux and Monica who judge it perfectly cooked and seasoned. Problem with critics is people take their comments as gospel as opposed to a pinch of salt.


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## drude

It's always entertaining to read the commentards on the Guardian. What kind of person has the time and inclination to read a coffee article then post 'I don't like coffee'?


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## IanP

Ah, the great Jay Rayner, what a pompous self-serving self publicist. Nice of him to be paid to espouse his condescending sneering views in the national press! If hipster espresso isn't to his taste, maybe they could have paid him to extol the virtues of dark roast espresso in CostaNeroBucks? It's so great that an 'R2D2' B2C can make it and nobody drinks it as espresso, cos that impossible, instead having to drown it it a pint of scalding milk and adding 3 sugars! Hmmmm! I thought I was grumpy. ?..........what a twat! Still, he won't visiting the Graun's new wave café haunt. ?....is it even still there?


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## Mrboots2u

Ian , you are grumpy today ....you need a nice fruity umbongo espresso to perk you up.....


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## spune

Personally I think his views, like a lot of similar journalists, are a caricature of his own. They are sweeping, exaggerated and to the point, but they're to be taken with a pinch of salt. Articles like this one spark debate and are just his views on the current state of things. Keep it up I say! That's not to say I agree with the comments, either...


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## Mrboots2u

Pinch Salt in coffee now there's a new trend .....


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## DavecUK

Mrboots2u said:


> Pinch Salt in coffee now there's a new trend .....


No, not new, has been done, probably still being done.


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## CrazyH

I was just about to post this.

He makes a point about sour espresso. I'm not entirely sure what he's been drinking but in the last year or two I have had a number of espressos which are genuinely sour, presumably because the roast is so light. There is a bit of an obsession of not having the roast 'hurt' the bean in any way. In addition some coffee seems to be roasted purely for milk drinks, the result is over-acidic and sometimes astringent espresso. I'm happy to have some fruity flavours but not a Haribo sour mix.

This bit on sweetmarias elaborates on this http://www.sweetmarias.com/library/content/perfect-roast


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## IanP

Mrboots2u said:


> Ian , you are grumpy today ....you need a nice fruity umbongo espresso to perk you up.....


I've got some tasty, fruity natural cold-press steeping in the fridge ready to go when it gets really hot this afternoon







meanwhile the espresso machine is warming up ready for the mid morning espresso or flat white. He is the Jeremy Clarkson of food. Have preconceived notions that the flat four Alfa boxer engines in an Italian rust bucket body with a superb chassis are the quintessential Italian driving experience, then blast off publicly about at length about how truly awful the new Ferrari is









The most undrinkable, sour and rancid espressos I have ever drunk have been chain dark roast stuff, until I wised up! Right, back to Grumpville.....


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## Mrboots2u

Coffee doesn't have to be roasted the way I like it or the way you ( not aimed at one person on the thread just a general "you" ) like it . Same as you get asked how you like your steak cooked ...

Some folks like a bite of sour if balanced with other flavours . Some don't


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## Spazbarista

Its just a drink.


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## Mrboots2u

Spazbarista said:


> Its just a drink.


I prefer tea ......and xbox is better than a playstation.


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## Pompeyexile

Now I like many have little time for critics, simply because at the end of the day who is anyone to tell me something should taste this way or that and if I don't taste it as they say, then I'm either wrong a heathen an oik or whatever. But...... sour is sour and bitter is bitter and we all have the ability to taste those (maybe to differing degrees) as that's how our tongues are made. We don't mistake sour for the taste of raspberry or passion fruit or bitter for the taste of caramel or hazelnut. Even if we taste bitter chocolate we still should taste chocolate surely?

So, as I say whilst we may all taste to differing degrees, which I believe to a certain extent depends on the amount of taste buds we have on our tongues making some of us more able to distinguish tastes than others, that if something is bitter it is bitter and so with sour, whether we are a maligned critic or not.

It was a shame the 13k plus machine purportedly to have being able to produce an excellent espresso couldn't (whether it be down to the barista or the failing mechanics) just to see what he would have tasted. More disappointingly it is a shame not one (in his eyes admittedly) drink at the meeting met with his so called critically honed taste buds approval even slightly.

Perhaps he should be invited (as a response to his article) with a group from this forum as a challenge to him, to prove that modern day espresso is not all Kak. Making the espresso on machines and grinders of varying price and complexity ending perhaps with something like the Vesuvius.

Just a thought; but even the harshest critics can still be educated.........surely?


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## garydyke1

culture, convention, stereotypes .....nothing about coffee as a precious valuable ingredient


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## Obnic

Mrboots2u said:


> ......and xbox is better than a playstation.


That's fighting talk


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## Mrboots2u

Sour is not always sour and bitter isn't always bitter to different people anyway

People taste and experience the same " thing " in different ways .

One tasting strip 15 people - some voted bitter , some salty , some taste nothing ,some sweet ....


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## Thecatlinux

Mrboots2u said:


> xbox is better than a playstation.


Only Xbox owners think that.....PS4 is running away with it at the moment


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## DannyMontez

Thecatlinux said:


> Only Xbox owners think that.....PS4 is running away with it at the moment


I'll get one later this year I think.


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## Pompeyexile

In that case my search for tasting coffee and all its intricacies' may be as fruitful as searching for Eldorado; because I'm me and I will taste differently to other people. Whilst since starting only journey last November I still only taste bitter or sour; changing the grind, the temp the tamp pressure the bean the timing etc as advised by many on here, may all be a waste of time.

So, has his taste buds that as he claims could once distinguish chocolate or caramel in an espresso but now can only taste bitter or sour been changed, or is it as he says just badly made coffee? If it's the coffee roast and or the way it is made, then surely offering to show him the light is worth while.

As for me.....there's no hope; but I'll carry on grinding and tamping if only because like eating, I prefer to cook a roast dinner from scratch using fresh ingredients rather than just heating up a ready meal.


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## Mrboots2u

Pompey You may taste different to other people , doesn't mean you can't teach your palate to appreciate things and tastes and develop it .

So keep trying









As said before perhaps go to somewhere that makes great coffee ( forum member , different cafe, different brew methods ) and see what you find and or taste.

Espresso can be the hardest way to get the taste notes compared to pour over methods for example.


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## Neill

Pompeyexile said:


> sour is sour and bitter is bitter and we all have the ability to taste those (maybe to differing degrees) as that's how our tongues are made. We don't mistake sour for the taste of raspberry or passion fruit or bitter for the taste of caramel or hazelnut. Even if we taste bitter chocolate we still should taste chocolate surely?
> 
> So, as I say whilst we may all taste to differing degrees, which I believe to a certain extent depends on the amount of taste buds we have on our tongues making some of us more able to distinguish tastes than others, that if something is bitter it is bitter and so with sour, whether we are a maligned critic or not.


I think it's more a matter of balance. I don't agree with the statement that you don't mistake sour for the taste of raspberry. Raspberry, passion fruit etc all have a sour element but that is balanced out by other flavours making it taste of raspberry or whatever. When's the last time you tasted sour on its own? To my tastes I don't mind a little bit of sour flavour as long as it's balanced with other flavours.


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## Pompeyexile

Being inexperienced and not so good at putting into words what I mean to say, when I say raspberry, passion fruit etc I meant that even if there is an element of sour in those or go to make up those flavours, you must surely still be able to taste a bit of raspberry or passion fruit flavour and not just the sour. If others more experienced than me are agreeing and saying there is a hint of raspberry flavour and I'm not getting it; either my prep is out or my taste buds.

When was the last time I tasted sour on its own? Well maybe never, but all I do know is that whatever I'm getting with it, it is certainly not even a hint of what others are describing be it floral, fruity, chocolaty, hazelnut, caramel or whatever, because I do know what those things taste like. It is either the sour or bitter element overriding and masking any other flavour so that is all I can describe.

As has been said, I need to go somewhere where it is renowned for serving good properly prepared coffee and look at the tasting notes for that particular blend and see if I can taste any of those nuances. Now even with my underdeveloped inexperienced taste buds surely I'll get a hint of those nuances and not just sour or bitter.

I love a glass of wine and when smelling and tasting I can distinguish different fruits and flavours to a certain extent (I'm no Oz Clark or Gilly Goulden) so I'm guessing and hoping I just haven't got my preparation quite right.......yet.

As for our distinguished critic, he's had years of tasting and developing his brain to distinguish the tastes and smells going to it, as they say practice makes perfect. So whilst we all perceive things at different levels because we are not all pre-programmed robots, I'm guessing he's just had a lot of badly prepared coffee. Now because of his job he then enlightens thousands of the fact that because he can't taste it, modern day espresso must therefore be rubbish. Well shouldn't he be shown that simply isn't the case?


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## Kyle548

Pompeyexile said:


> As for our distinguished critic, he's had years of tasting and developing his brain to distinguish the tastes and smells going to it, as they say practice makes perfect. So whilst we all perceive things at different levels because we are not all pre-programmed robots, I'm guessing he's just had a lot of badly prepared coffee. Now because of his job he then enlightens thousands of the fact that because he can't taste it, modern day espresso must therefore be rubbish. Well shouldn't he be shown that simply isn't the case?


Isn't that the problem?

He has trained his pallet in such a way that it can't adapt.

Espresso tastes like THIS.

If this espresso doesn't taste like THAT then my pallet can't handle it and I can't taste a thing.

It's like drinking wisky.

I'm great at eating, I do it everyday, but when I drink wisky, it can be very over-powering and burn.

Is that the fault of the wisky?

Not really.


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## Neill

Pompeyexile said:


> Being inexperienced and not so good at putting into words what I mean to say, when I say raspberry, passion fruit etc I meant that even if there is an element of sour in those or go to make up those flavours, you must surely still be able to taste a bit of raspberry or passion fruit flavour and not just the sour. If others more experienced than me are agreeing and saying there is a hint of raspberry flavour and I'm not getting it; either my prep is out or my taste buds.
> 
> When was the last time I tasted sour on its own? Well maybe never, but all I do know is that whatever I'm getting with it, it is certainly not even a hint of what others are describing be it floral, fruity, chocolaty, hazelnut, caramel or whatever, because I do know what those things taste like. It is either the sour or bitter element overriding and masking any other flavour so that is all I can describe.
> 
> As has been said, I need to go somewhere where it is renowned for serving good properly prepared coffee and look at the tasting notes for that particular blend and see if I can taste any of those nuances. Now even with my underdeveloped inexperienced taste buds surely I'll get a hint of those nuances and not just sour or bitter.
> 
> I love a glass of wine and when smelling and tasting I can distinguish different fruits and flavours to a certain extent (I'm no Oz Clark or Gilly Goulden) so I'm guessing and hoping I just haven't got my preparation quite right.......yet.
> 
> As for our distinguished critic, he's had years of tasting and developing his brain to distinguish the tastes and smells going to it, as they say practice makes perfect. So whilst we all perceive things at different levels because we are not all pre-programmed robots, I'm guessing he's just had a lot of badly prepared coffee. Now because of his job he then enlightens thousands of the fact that because he can't taste it, modern day espresso must therefore be rubbish. Well shouldn't he be shown that simply isn't the case?


Yeah, stick with the practice and you'll get there. In terms of the delicate flavours do you use any brew techniques. I always get these flavours pointed out in tasting notes in brewed coffee (in all honesty I've a pretty beginner palate myself). I think the thing that makes learning difficult is the number of variables that can affect the end flavour when it comes of espresso (or any brewing in fact) from machine, grinder, settings, temp, coffee used and water type. How do we compare when we all use different things. Probably is best if you visit someone who knows what they are doing and discuss the tastes in the coffee as you say.

As for Jay, as others have said, I think he's completely missed the point. There's coffee out there for every coffee drinkers taste. If he doesn't like the lighter roasts fine, there's plenty of places serving darker. Maybe he should just stop drinking the lighter roasts that he clearly knows he doesn't like! Have you DSOL guys got any room for him on your next order


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## MWJB

Rayner says he was served something, "sharp & unpleasant". This isn't any style of coffee, this is a malfunction. If you buy something you think is defective ask for your money back...don't repeat the mistake for 2 years then look for a list of scapegoats to blame. When I was a kid I saw an ad on TV for cream of celery soup, the ad said it was "delicious". I nagged & nagged my mum to buy some, despite her suspicions that it wouldn't be "delicious", in the end a bowl was presented to me, I took one spoonful & sure enough conceded, "Bleurgghhh! That's horrible!"...some month later, after another very convincing ad break, we repeated the excercise...I eventually learned my lesson.

Fast forward 40yrs and I'm now a grown up (supposedly), I buy what I like, don't buy what I don't like. I excercise personal choice & take responsibility for my choices. If something appears defective I complain, or veto it. If someone recommends something & I don't share their opinion, as long as I can't find a tangible fault, I put it down to a difference in expectation & move on, live & let live. I don't whinge in a newspaper column.

Talk of "fourth wave" & laying the blame at the feet of "technology" is obviously nonsense. Espresso (as we know it today) only exists through technology, unless someone can point me to the espresso tree/well? What, did some goatherd in the long ago accidentally pick, process, roast, fine grind and apply 9bar of pressure to 94C water to extract coffee from a finely perforated metal basket? The article implies that is impossible to avoid fruity/sour/sharp espresso...piffle.


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## Mrboots2u

The mental image of your childhood I have now ...I hope you never pointed at the chum advert and asked for that too...


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## The Systemic Kid

spune said:


> Personally I think his views, like a lot of similar journalists, are a caricature of his own. They are sweeping, exaggerated and to the point, but they're to be taken with a pinch of salt. Articles like this one spark debate and are just his views on the current state of things. Keep it up I say! That's not to say I agree with the comments, either...


Bang on - a journalist who thinks his opinions are fact.


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## Wando64

I've tried lighter roasts from HB and SQM and I, too, find them too fruity and acidic.

I prefer a darker roast, and please no bulls about me or anyone else needing to educate their palate.

I know what I like. Palate educated plenty already. Ta.

As far as I can tell, this guy is not, at any point, positioning himself as an expert or even as a connoisseur.

He's just expressing an opinion as a coffee drinker (no diploma required last time I checked).

Now, did you actually read the bit suggesting to:

"welcome and invite people in. We mustn't make people feel belittled, patronised and embarrassed." Too often ... the modern cult of coffee does precisely that.

Hear, hear.


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## Neill

Wando64 said:


> I've tried lighter roasts from HB and SQM and I, too, find them too fruity and acidic.
> 
> I prefer a darker roast, and please no bulls about me or anyone else needing to educate their palate.
> 
> I know what I like. Palate educated plenty already. Ta.
> 
> As far as I can tell, this guy is not, at any point, positioning himself as an expert or even as a connoisseur.
> 
> He's just expressing an opinion as a coffee drinker (no diploma required last time I checked).
> 
> Now, did you actually read the bit suggesting to:
> 
> "welcome and invite people in. We mustn't make people feel belittled, patronised and embarrassed." Too often ... the modern cult of coffee does precisely that.
> 
> Hear, hear.


I don't think anyone is criticising him for likening darker roasts. As you know plenty of people do. I think people are suggesting he is overly critical of lighter roasts by people who are showing passionate about their coffee. If you look at James Hoffmanns twitter feed you will notice the bit he felt was left out was that he wants London's coffee scene I be diverse as possible.


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## The Systemic Kid

No, what people are criticising him for is his arrogance and lack of knowledge. He wants his espresso dark - fine, probably happy with the offerings of the big chains. What comes across repeatedly in his piece is the chippy, smug, dismissive, condescending put downs of anything outside his narrow definition of what an espresso should be.


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## Mrboots2u

Side by side near my grinder ...


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## Thecatlinux

There does seem to be some negative and opinionated undertones in his article , normal reaction from a percentage of the readers will be 'hang on whats he talking about' 'let's go check these places out and see for ourselves' so not all negative .


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## Mrboots2u

It's london centric again as well, if your living in preston say you probably haven't got a scooby what all the fuss is about ,there are only chain shops that make coffee on way there .


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## c_squared

Mrboots2u said:


> It's london centric again as well, if your living in preston say you probably haven't got a scooby what all the fuss is about ,there are only chain shops that make coffee on way there .


Wow, you mean there is actually a world outside of Preston? This is bursting my bubble.


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## The Systemic Kid

Thecatlinux said:


> There does seem to be some negative and opinionated undertones in his article , normal reaction from a percentage of the readers will be 'hang on whats he talking about' 'let's go check these places out and see for ourselves' so not all negative .


Sadly Cat, think the opposite is likely to happen.


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## The Systemic Kid

Biggest joke is the London Coffee Festival invited the bore to take part in their sponsored coffee crawl.


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## Thecatlinux

The Systemic Kid said:


> Sadly Cat, think the opposite is likely to happen.


Any publicity is good publicity .


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## The Systemic Kid

c_squared said:


> Wow, you mean there is actually a world outside of Preston? This is bursting my bubble.


Preston was once described in the Sunday Times as 'a cross between Hiroshima and the Bronx' - made me smile but upset the great and the good on the council.


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## Thecatlinux

With a mother like his he probably had a troubled childhood


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## Spazbarista

Look , he's just trying to make a coin like the rest of us. Its not his fault he works in the media and to keep his job he has to be an attention grabbing bullsh1tter.

Give the guy a break.


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## The Systemic Kid

So we should feel sorry for him working in the media and having to turn out patronising lazily researched copy? Don't think so.


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## Thecatlinux

Burn him !!!....


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## urbanbumpkin

Neill said:


> Maybe he should just stop drinking the lighter roasts that he clearly knows he doesn't like! Have you DSOL guys got any room for him on your next order


He could request membership to the DSOL, he might get "black balled" though!

It's not a voting method, it's just a variation of "tunnel of death" initiation that we do.


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## Edwin

I don't like Jay Rayner but I think he's spot on here.

Trendy / modern / fashionable espresso, as served in trendy / modern / fashionable coffee shops is, for a lot of us who just don't warm to the taste, sour and unpleasant. That's all he seems to be saying. It isn't easy to find somewhere that does more "traditional" espresso really well. You need to go to Southern Europe for that.


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## Mrboots2u

Where are all these trendy fashionable coffee shops that keep getting referred to btw , id like try some of them out please


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## welshrarebit

You aren't hip enough to be in the know how


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## Spazbarista

The Systemic Kid said:


> So we should feel sorry for him working in the media and having to turn out patronising lazily researched copy? Don't think so.


The irony was lost on you


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## MWJB

Edwin said:


> I don't like Jay Rayner but I think he's spot on here.
> 
> Trendy / modern / fashionable espresso, as served in trendy / modern / fashionable coffee shops is, for a lot of us who just don't warm to the taste, sour and unpleasant. That's all he seems to be saying. It isn't easy to find somewhere that does more "traditional" espresso really well. You need to go to Southern Europe for that.


This is kind of what I'm uncomfortable with. "Sour & unpleasant" isn't, or should be anyone's goal. You can make any kind of espresso badly. If it genuinely is sour & unpleasant take it up with the barista/staff, if you don't get any joy, don't buy there any more. If there aren't enough cafes doing "traditional" espresso well, take it up with the ones that are doing "traditional" badly. Going into a trendy espresso bar serving light roasts that you don't like, buying a drink you knew you weren't going to like (which both Hoffmann & Malatesta concede, in the article, is a possibility), then confirming that you don't like it isn't anyone else' s fault. Who are these people putting guns to folks heads & making them repeatedly buy things they don't want? It's never happened to me.

There is also an inference in the article that there is a movement deliberately sabotaging espresso, and that sour, acidic drinks are the goal, which is a little absurd...I'd be mad to suggest that they don't happen, but so do bad traditional espressos...they are all ruined in the last 30seconds of the bean's existence, by one person, take it up with them...rather than pay, smile & come back for more of the same.

Remember, there was also a time when traditional espresso was trendy/modern/fashionable. ;-)


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## welshrarebit

Spazbarista said:


> The irony was lost on you


I did read your original message as sarcasm then started to doubt myself when I read that comment lol.


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## Geordie Boy

I think the main problem with independent coffee shops is that you don't know what you're going to get taste wise unless you go in and either talk to the barista or try a drink.

Coffee is as complex and as varied as wine can be, but what would happen if you went into a shop that sold one type of wine? Well some you'd like, and some you won't. Coffee is no different, and really it's where I think most shops are missing a trick at the moment. If one customer prefers a dark, deep chocolate roasted coffee, why give them the choice of only a light acidic type, and vice-versa? Hopefully we'll get to a point where you can walk into any shop and ask specifically for your drink by bean type


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## The Systemic Kid

Spazbarista said:


> The irony was lost on you


No it wasn't - I just ignored it


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## Spazbarista

welshrarebit said:


> I did read your original message as sarcasm then started to doubt myself when I read that comment lol.


Don't worry. You haven't gone mad.

It was sarcasm


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## 4085

What all this clearly shows, is that if you take the worlds most expensive coffee machine then grind shit, it still tastes like shit and not coffee......odd that hey!


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## Wando64

I just don't think the venom poured on this guy by some of you is even marginally justified.

It makes me wary of expressing an opinion on this forum, because after all that's all he did.

In any case, who cares, whatever..., good night.


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## coffeechap

Wando64 said:


> I just don't think the venom poured on this guy by some of you is even marginally justified.
> 
> It makes me wary of expressing an opinion on this forum, because after all that's all he did.
> 
> In any case, who cares, whatever..., good night.


You seem to care!!


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## welshrarebit

dfk41 said:


> What all this clearly shows, is that if you take the worlds most expensive coffee machine then grind shit, it still tastes like shit and not coffee......odd that hey!


As the old adage goes 'you can't polish a turd'


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## coffeechap

Geordie Boy said:


> Hopefully we'll get to a point where you can walk into any shop and ask specifically for your drink by bean type


Go into rave you pretty much can do this there, but that comes of having the beast grinder on the bench


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## welshrarebit

Wando64 said:


> I just don't think the venom poured on this guy by some of you is even marginally justified.
> 
> It makes me wary of expressing an opinion on this forum, because after all that's all he did.
> 
> In any case, who cares, whatever..., good night.


Wouldn't call it venom, people are passionate about coffee and opinions will fly.


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## coffeechap

Each to their own with this, there will always be some who like it dark some who like it light and some who like to try the varied types of roast profile and bean type, isn't that what makes coffee great? Diversity


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## Wando64

coffeechap said:


> Each to their own with this, there will always be some who like it dark some who like it light and some who like to try the varied types of roast profile and bean type, isn't that what makes coffee great? Diversity


Precisely so.


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## Geordie Boy

coffeechap said:


> Go into rave you pretty much can do this there, but that comes of having the beast grinder on the bench


There's a few other places I can think of and they're roasters as well. The drive is probably through letting people try the bean before they buy a bag, and as you pointed out, you need the equipment and skill behind the counter to pull it off without having significant wastage and making it taste good


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## mym

MWJB said:


> Rayner says he was served something, "sharp & unpleasant". This isn't any style of coffee, this is a malfunction.


A deliberate one in some cases then, it was my overriding impression of third wave places in London (and of the LCF).


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## CrazyH

mym said:


> A deliberate one in some cases then, it was my overriding impression of third wave places in London (and of the LCF).


I think it varies in scale, to be honest, even within roasters. Take hasbean espresso blends, the jailbreak has a fair amount of acidity but is not, to my tongue, sour. The jaberwocky blend is definitely very sharp and some would call that sour, but it works very well with milk. I had a picollo at Notes today and even with the milk it was bright, but it worked well with it. IIRC from the board it was some sort of Ethiopian. Without the milk I suspect it would have been too bright for my personal taste buds. I had another one at Fernandez and Wells and that was much less acidic, and probably would have been better straight.


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## MWJB

Wando64 said:


> I just don't think the venom poured on this guy by some of you is even marginally justified.
> 
> It makes me wary of expressing an opinion on this forum, because after all that's all he did.
> 
> In any case, who cares, whatever..., good night.


Well all reasonable opinions should be aired and treated with validity. But Rayner seems keen to point the finger(s) at light roasts, temperatures, beards, specific machine manufacturers...it's not cohesive, nor clear what the actual issue is (does he not like badly presented espresso - like most people don't - & why does he drink light, fruity espresso if he doesn't like & knows he doesn't like it). I don't think there is anything wrong with having a preference one way or the other, as long as we are clearly talking about espresso as it is intended to be represented. If there's a magic bean/roast that never underextracts, I'd like it hear about it.

He doesn't like the way some espresso clashes with his expectations...and that's fine, but what we as individuals mean by espresso is typically driven by our expectations, whatever they are...blanket exclusions based on perceived "movements" or ethos don't seem reasonable, whatever side of the fence you're on (not that I see why there's a fence at all).

What do we learn from his piece in terms of value? We certainly don't learn where to go to get his idea of good espresso. We just get a scattergun, target list of what he thinks we should avoid, for somewhat arbitrary reasons (if he wanted something that tastes like Earl Grey he'd drink Earl Grey, but he won't have bitter chocolate & caramel instead of coffee that tastes like that?). We can all write a list of things we don't like, the longer we have the longer the list...why not put the energy into positive testimonials & recommendations of the folk that are doing things right & earning his respect?

If you're enjoying a bean/roast/cafe Wando, tell us about it. Similarly if you aren't enjoying something tell us, but at least give us/the barista something tangible as to why you're not enjoying it.

Sure, enjoyment is subjective & personal...but if we can't organise our criticisms constructively, then our negative opinions/reviews seem no more, or less, subjective & personal...then how do we move forward? How does anyone holding to the notion that there is just one right way to roast & pull espresso become anything else but belittling, patronising & embarrassing? (Not that I think you were doing this, just ironic that Rayner picks up on this phrase in his belittling & patronising piece).

But anyway, express your opinions, this is the place to do it...just be aware that none of us gets blanket agreement, nor should we realistically expect it. ;-)


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## Charliej

Mark, this is not meant as taking a shot at you, but you always seem to dive in whenever someone says that they find coffee served to them somewhere, made in whatever method as tasting sour and unpleasant.

Coffee doesn't need to be badly made to taste sour and unpleasant to an individual, it may quite likely be that whatever numbers you wish to use stack up and the coffee was perfectly made and extracted and tasted just as the roasters intend, but that person tasting it doesn't find it to their taste and it seems sour and unpleasant to them. Sour and unpleasant or indeed bitter and unpleasant don't imply a badly made coffee just one that is not to a persons taste. What disturbs me is that there is a certain element of people at large in the world who do try and come across all wine snob about coffee ( I'm not meaning anyone on here) and do look down on and belittle people who " don't get" a particular type of bean or style of coffee.

To me this is all a little like the whole thing with chefs/ restaurants refusing to have salt and pepper on the tables, as they believe that they make and season their food perfectly and that no-one has the right to alter that in any way. For me there is no way one chef can season a plate of food in a manner that everyone will like and agree on.

As for food critics and their ilk I don't want anyone telling me that I must cook my food a particular way and recipe that they find acceptable, if they think I'm a nothing provincial hick for not liking my beef bleeding on my plate I really couldn't care less, and the same goes for coffee I'll try anything once and if I don't like I'm not scared of saying so, and if I don't like it, it is highly likely I won't try it again.

AS for the Jay rayners of this world, we've only got the internet to blame for the fact that his views aren't already yesterdays fish and chip wrapping.


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## AndyS

I'm surprised at the number of negative comments about an article that, viewed in the context of many similar ones, isn't really that bad (IMHO).

In the past couple years many, many people have been complaining that the pendulum has swung too far in the direction of sour, underroasted, underextracted espresso. This article wasn't particularly original or insightful, but it sure seemed to me that it expressed a strong taste preference without getting overly negative about folks who offer a more acidic style.

For what it's worth, I believe the pendulum has already begun to swing back towards better-developed roasting. In a recent trip to New York, the espressos I had at various cafes seemed to me far less sour and far more drinkable than they were just a year ago.

Experience has shown that some baristas and pro coffee cuppers can get thoroughly accustomed to their own acidic, underextracted espresso; after a while it tastes "right" to them. Criticism from the public and from food writers like Rayner can break into the sometimes insular professional coffee world and offer a reality check.

One other thing: some people here may underestimate the challenges associated with producing balanced, well-researched coffee journalism. For more perspective,





 is very enlightening.


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## coffeechap

I agree with Andy here, I do think that quite a few of our roasters are tending to lean on the lighter side of espresso, now there are plenty of enthusiasts and new wave coffe followers that enjoy the lighter flavour profiles, however on the whole most peole enjoy a balanced rich espresso that goes beyond medium. I know I for one tend to prefer my espresso beyond medium and enjoy an espresso to be entirely un tea like, howver that is my preference and as such I will only frequent the shops that will cater to my taste preference, as i would imagine anyone else would do.


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## Spazbarista

Roasters roast what will sell, but some of them do have a hand in shaping what customers want, or think they want.

Personally, in my kitchen, there is a place for bright and fruity coffees and that place is in milk. As unadulterated espresso I don't like it at all, but its opened up a multidimensional world for my flat whites.


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## The Systemic Kid

The further you take the roast the greater the likelihood the resulting espresso will lean towards coffee/caramel notes no matter what bean variety is roasted. Lighter roasts generate more individuality which doesn't seem to attract as much ire in pour over as when that same bean is used to produce espresso.

Using lighter roasts for espresso is, IMO, more challenging to get right as opposed to using medium plus roasts. When they are bad, they are really bad but don't think that's a reason for binning them altogether. If you get it right, a light roast espresso will have balanced acidity plus a great deal of floral and/or fruit notes. This may not be for everyone. As for the pendulum swinging the other way, the consumer will have the final say - if they don't want it, they won't buy it. But that doesn't seem to be the case at the moment.


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## Spazbarista

Lighter roasts for filter don't attract the ire because the brew ratio is so different. Same amount of coffee going into maybe up to 10 times more water.

Interestingly, light fruitier coffees for filter often come out better with a lighter ratio than heavier darker roasts in my view, otherwise you lose the delicacy and get Bovril.


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## motd2k

Normally a slippery slope!


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## MWJB

Charliej said:


> Mark, this is not meant as taking a shot at you, but you always seem to dive in whenever someone says that they find coffee served to them somewhere, made in whatever method as tasting sour and unpleasant.
> 
> Coffee doesn't need to be badly made to taste sour and unpleasant to an individual, it may quite likely be that whatever numbers you wish to use stack up and the coffee was perfectly made and extracted and tasted just as the roasters intend, but that person tasting it doesn't find it to their taste and it seems sour and unpleasant to them. Sour and unpleasant or indeed bitter and unpleasant don't imply a badly made coffee just one that is not to a persons taste. What disturbs me is that there is a certain element of people at large in the world who do try and come across all wine snob about coffee ( I'm not meaning anyone on here) and do look down on and belittle people who " don't get" a particular type of bean or style of coffee.


Hi Charlie,

Fair point, but the main question in my mind is actually whether it is always a question of taste (entirely possible & valid), or whether it is also a symptom of poor extraction. The two may be related, but it often seems a given that it's purely subjective taste/preference in these types of discussions. Rayner seems to cover both angles without distinction (from my perception at least). You have to wait until the beverage is made before you can evaluate it and there's a bunch of ways to screw it up before it lands in the cup. Attributing poor result in the cup entirely to roast (if others are achieving nominal extractions) seems to absolve the barista of any responsibility? Just seems like jumping the gun to me.


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## jeebsy

If you want hipster clothes go to a hipster shop, if you want 'old fashioned' clothes go to an old fashioned shop


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## MWJB

Spazbarista said:


> Lighter roasts for filter don't attract the ire because the brew ratio is so different. Same amount of coffee going into maybe up to 10 times more water.
> 
> Interestingly, light fruitier coffees for filter often come out better with a lighter ratio than heavier darker roasts in my view, otherwise you lose the delicacy and get Bovril.


If that were true, diluting your light roast espresso would take away the sourness & acidity. It doesn't, it just makes the drink 'weaker' without changing the extraction yield.

Brew ratio isn't really relevant (assuming a similar extraction yield) unless the ratio is so short it clamps extraction by limiting the amount of water you need to hit a nominal yield.


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## garydyke1

As counter-intuitive as it sounds London coffee festival was not a good event to drink good coffee. We found a lot of ok/good coffee being very poorly extracted, murdered infact, no one was focusing on dialling-in, they were too busy chatting and networking. Im not convinced we had even a semi-decent espresso all day. Some of the filter was better, infact the very best cup coming from the guys at Marco , who admitted to being little more than home-users, certainly not pro baristas - the difference, they cared about what they were doing and had time for us.

I knew this thread would turn into a dark v light piece. Raynor has a clear definition of what 'espresso' means to him and that certainly isn't origin, terroir, varietal, or processing.... that's absolutely fine....sorry farmers of the world who actually care, your efforts aren't to be rewarded here, back to high volume commodity for you. Next time he does a restaurant review I hope he gets a wine list which only has Red, White and fizz as the three options.


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## Spazbarista

If you want an alternative analogy, Rayner is like somebody who's nutrition has been provided for the entirety of his life by McDonalds. Not only that but he has never veered away on the menu from anything other than a Big Mac ™. In fact nobody ever told him that there are places other than McDonalds where food is served. Same in Italy.

He's been branching out a little and visiting some Michelin starred restaurants, some of which have better chefs than others.

Somebody has served him Steak Tartare and it isn't like food has ever tasted to him before. He's wondering why it isn't fatty, sugary and salty.


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## mym

Troll! Elegant troll, but nonetheless...


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## Scotford

I'd like not to ever read that again. He seems to be stuck in his ways of 'this is what espresso should taste like'. What a ponce.


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## origmarm

Interestingly enough I was up in Edinburgh last week and stopped in at three places - Artisan, Wellington and Razzo. At Razzo I saw 3-4 coffees in the short time I was there being returned. One was for not being hot enough (older couple, cappucinos), two were from Italian tourists saying it 'tasted like lemon coffee' and a fourth from a businessman saying it tasted strange. Similarly at Wellington I saw one espresso returned for 'tasting like there's something wrong with your machine'. Artisan I didn't see this although I have to say I wasn't overly impressed with the shot either.

Anyhow the reason I bring this up is that the comments from the older couple at Razzo outside was something like 'this used to be a nice coffee place until this lot turned up...' and 'they used to make real coffee'. Made me think of this thread but also wonder how much business some places are losing as a result.

Overall horses for courses, if you want light roast, go to a place that does that etc... that said I do wonder if some places aren't missing a trick commercially by simply offering two house blends one darker, one lighter. I had a union revelation shot the other day and it reminded me of what you could do well with a darker roast without going too dark. Same with Volcano recently where I had a shot of Mount Blend.


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## jeebsy

Lab in Glasgow had some Koppi on as a guest espresso recently and it didn't go down well at all, but the darker roasts they have in from Volcano fly out the door. Can't please all the people all the time


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## DavecUK

origmarm said:


> Overall horses for courses, if you want light roast, go to a place that does that etc... that said I do wonder if some places aren't missing a trick commercially by simply offering two house blends one darker, one lighter. I had a union revelation shot the other day and it reminded me of what you could do well with a darker roast without going too dark. Same with Volcano recently where I had a shot of Mount Blend.


I liked the post and feel you are near to hitting the nail on the head. Opinions seem polarised about how coffee should be, god knows after 36 years of drinking real coffee mine are as well. I know what I want, how I like it and why I feel coffee should be roasted a certain way. The critical thing is though, there seems to be no give and take. You have these massively polarised views from each side. If I was in business, I would do exactly what you say and offer different levels of roast. At the moment you either get.


Coffeeshops who will serve it the way they decide your going to have it...they are going to stick to their principle....be it artisan or costabucks.

Roasters who take the fu approach this is how I do the coffee and I'm not going to state or offer you a roast level (in many cases)

critics who say exactly how it should be...light or dark.


my view, "%^&* em", I agree with you they are all missing a trick. if I was roasting to make money, I would do the full range of roasts (within the range for that type of coffee), as long as I wasn't going to make anyone ill. If I was in a shop, I would offer a range of roasting (light, medium, dark). If I was a critic, I would drink what I like, state what I don't like....what's right for others though....I dunno. I've seen 1000s of people swilling down shite at Starbucks and liking it....so I don't think I can judge what the majority are going to like.

What I would like is to see people have a bit more choice, because I actually think it's more important to have 2-3 roast levels of a couple of coffees, than 6 different single origins and whatever else on offer, all roasted the same way. it would also be super nice if they asked you whether you wanted a ristretto shot or not.....to make whatever drink your going to have using it.


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## The Systemic Kid

Dropped into Origin's Brew Lab in Porthleven this afternoon. Had a superb flat white using their Nicaraguan Mierisch Pacama Natural. Got chatting to Will, the barista about the debate on this thread. For contrast, he produced an espresso, some pour over and a coffee shot using the same beans - through an EK43. The pour over oozed raspberry and unsweetened Ribena. The espresso was balanced, acidity-wise, with a lovely hit of raspberry. At that point, the guy behind Origin, Tim, dropped in. Struck by his love and passion for what he does. He talked about the importance of developing close links with the growers and how the beans are processes post harvest. For him, clearly, it's important to preserve the bean's individual character in the roasting process which inevitably leans towards fruit notes rather than caramels. As Will demonstrated, it is possible to produce an espresso in which you can access fruit notes and doesn't have to be overly sour or acidic.


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## radish

The places serving lighter roasts are still very much in the minority. Assuming they are preparing the shots properly (and making money), then I don't see why they shouldn't continue doing what they do. I do think there is a valid criticism to be made though regarding engaging with customers and this can be made all the more difficult where specialist cafes adopt the Starbucks service model.


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## IanP

As an aside from the main thread here [email protected] Kid

The Nicaraguan Mierisch Pacama Natural was our introduction to cold brew at Porthleven a couple of week back, so fragrant, rich in fruit and almost wine-like.

Took some beans home and now have the very brew in our fridge!

Mr Rayner could do with seeing what lies beneath the dizzy heights of high chair from which diktats are loudly issued.......purely IMHO ...of course!

Cheers....


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## Charliej

When I still had my old setup of Classic and MC2 and to a degree even when I changed to Classic and an RR55 I found that the limits of the machine meant that I simply couldn't get on with lighter roasts in general. I must remark here that I seem very sensitive to acidic tastes and flavours and still don't really like citrus overtones in my coffee. Having moved to the Sage and RR55 and then the Mythos and Sage DB I'm finding that I can get along with SOME carefully chosen lighter roast coffees, as my setup has enough flexibility to get the best I can from them.

A while back I bought a couple of bags of Coffee roasted by The Barn in Berlin who roast in a very very light Nordic style, I liked the tasting notes, neither of which tended to "crisp", "prominent" , "forward" or "bright" acidity and I used them both for espresso and for brewed and really enjoyed the results, and as a result have been trying some lighter roasted coffees, but if I want the espresso equivalent of "comfort food" I'll always go back to a darker roast with more caramel and chocolate notes.

I don't think anyone should be looked down on in anyway for enjoying the sort of coffee they enjoy, after all we are all here because we don't like what the High St. in general offers and if along the way people discover they can get a liking for something different then more power to them. At the same time no-one should be castigated in any way for saying they did not enjoy a perfectly extracted coffee of whatever degree of roast due to the inherent nature of that particular bean and it's roast level, from any well known coffee shop. A case in point I can't stand North Tea Power in Manchester's custom Has Bean roast as espresso when ground via their Robur, it's fine in milk though, but when ground with their EK43 it becomes much more enjoyable for me.


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## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> A case in point I can't stand North Tea Power in Manchester's custom Has Bean roast as espresso when ground via their Robur, it's fine in milk though, but when ground with their EK43 it becomes much more enjoyable for me.


Thats going to be down to (most probably) a higher extraction. Not surprising as I find acidity and sweetness to be more in balance.


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## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> I'll always go back to a darker roast with more caramel and chocolate notes.


There are plenty of coffees with caramel and chocolate which roasts which are nowhere near dark (and extracted properly).....but not every coffee.


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## Charliej

garydyke1 said:


> There are plenty of coffees with caramel and chocolate which roasts which are nowhere near dark (and extracted properly).....but not every coffee.


That's why the comfort food analogy.


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## Xpenno

I think the problem with "speciality coffee" on mass is that it's harder to make a great tasting shots every time as the flavours can easily get overwhelming or bad, it really is a fine balance. I walked a couple of miles to get to bulldog the other week and didn't like either the guest espresso or the house. The guest espresso is one I've had at home and know it pretty well so I wasn't going in blind and it just tasted a bit grim. If i'd have come in on a different day it could have been amazing.

I personally love espresso in many different forms from chocolate to cherryade. I have had both dark and light roasts that weren't to my taste, however, I'm constantly amazed by how much the taste can vary from bean to bean and also with the same bean using a different set of parameters.

I just love coffee.


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## 4085

I was in the best coffee shop (usually) in Newcastle yesterday. My son and I each had a standard cappa. It was made really well, but the bean was simply lost in the milk. My son then had an espresso which was very unspectacular. I then thought I would have something different so asked what pour overs he had, and he suggested a Kalita (is that right?). I could not see him making it as I was sitting down but minutes later, he appeared with two small jugs with 2 glasses per jug. With both of them, to be honest I could easily have thought I was drinking tea! One was very floral and the other has tinges of a leathery taste.

The point of this is they are now roasting for their own needs and again, have fallen into the trap of going to light in my view. Each to his own, but I know if I was running my own shop, I would stick to my slightly darker guns!


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## Xpenno

dfk41 said:


> I was in the best coffee shop (usually) in Newcastle yesterday. My son and I each had a standard cappa. It was made really well, but the bean was simply lost in the milk. My son then had an espresso which was very unspectacular. I then thought I would have something different so asked what pour overs he had, and he suggested a Kalita (is that right?). I could not see him making it as I was sitting down but minutes later, he appeared with two small jugs with 2 glasses per jug. With both of them, to be honest I could easily have thought I was drinking tea! One was very floral and the other has tinges of a leathery taste.
> 
> The point of this is they are now roasting for their own needs and again, have fallen into the trap of going to light in my view. Each to his own, but I know if I was running my own shop, I would stick to my slightly darker guns!


And we'd expect nothing less. I think its more a case of you don't have to be a Barista to run a coffee shop...


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## AndyS

The Systemic Kid said:


> Using lighter roasts for espresso is, IMO, more challenging to get right as opposed to using medium plus roasts. When they are bad, they are really bad but don't think that's a reason for binning them altogether. If you get it right, a light roast espresso will have balanced acidity plus a great deal of floral and/or fruit notes.





MWJB said:


> the main question in my mind is actually whether it is always a question of taste (entirely possible & valid), or whether it is also a symptom of poor extraction....Attributing poor result in the cup entirely to roast (if others are achieving nominal extractions) seems to absolve the barista of any responsibility?


Very good point, Mark. In a light roast the bean's cellular structure remains relatively intact compared to a dark roast. This makes adequate extraction (and consequently, reasonable balance of sweet and sour) much more challenging to achieve.



origmarm said:


> I do wonder if some places aren't missing a trick commercially by simply offering two house blends one darker, one lighter. I had a union revelation shot the other day and it reminded me of what you could do well with a darker roast without going too dark. Same with Volcano recently where I had a shot of Mount Blend.





DavecUK said:


> If I was in business, I would do exactly what you say and offer different levels of roast.....
> 
> What I would like is to see people have a bit more choice, because I actually think it's more important to have 2-3 roast levels of a couple of coffees, than 6 different single origins and whatever else on offer, all roasted the same way. it would also be super nice if they asked you whether you wanted a ristretto shot or not.....to make whatever drink your going to have using it.


Dave, IMHO you grossly underestimate the difficulty, in a cafe environment. of doing ONE roast level really well and doing it hour after hour, day after day. Throw in 2-3 roast levels, plus people asking for ristrettos or not, and you have a perfect recipe for frustrated baristas and deeply disappointed customers.


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## DavecUK

AndyS said:


> Dave, IMHO you grossly underestimate the difficulty, in a cafe environment. of doing ONE roast level really well and doing it hour after hour, day after day. Throw in 2-3 roast levels, plus people asking for ristrettos or not, and you have a perfect recipe for frustrated baristas and deeply disappointed customers.


I don't underestimate the difficulty (but nice of you to assume that I do). It can be done and has been done, it requires more than 1 grinder is all. It's just not done in most of the places here, because I think the customer is often too easily pleased. I'll give you an example, if I went to Starbucks and actually got something I could drink....I would be so pleased. It would probably still be relatively poor on the coffee scale though. It's why so many coffee shops can make coffee "their" way and still do well.

I find it amazing that you can argue against offering the customers light and dark roasts, normale and ristretto shots, from which to make their drinks? In my opinion these are major major flavour differences. Some beans take well to a darker roast, others to a lighter roast, some to both. You should be arguing for a change like this, you should be arguing for more choice about how you have your drink.

In general the average coffee consumer in this country is not very knowledgeable about coffee and has low expectations. if this were not the case costabucks wouldn't make such good profits.


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## 4085

Agree 100% Dave. The Costa etc experience, is deep leather sofas where seeming intelligent people can be seen reading their newspaper whilst drinking 'coffee'. Coffee should be about coffee. That is why i dislike the circus that has sprung up around coffee competitions and the need to tell a story (in English regardless of your coffee). You could have a chap who produces the most extraordinary cup, but cannot win because he cannot speak English (or American).

Of course, there would be no circus or show or profitability if it was just about the coffee. It clearly is not about coffee though, otherwise the big chains would not exist. Only they can afford the high street locations so often found.....in the end, it is we the consumer who are being ripped off big style, and always will be as long as we are happy to suffer buying second rate crap from them


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## garydyke1

dfk41 said:


> Coffee should be about coffee.


Amen to that.....


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## Spazbarista

The very obvious thing with the Batista competitions is that it isn't all about the coffee. Your face has to fit or forget it.


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## DavecUK

Spazbarista said:


> The very obvious thing with the Batista competitions is that it isn't all about the coffee. Your face has to fit or forget it.


Finally something we agree on.

your taste in decor, machines, cars and colours, perhaps not.....


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## Scotford

Spazbarista said:


> The very obvious thing with the Batista competitions is that it isn't all about the coffee. Your face has to fit or forget it.


Absolutely. It seems to be more about how creative and engaging the competitor are with judges these days.


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## garydyke1

Scotford said:


> Absolutely. It seems to be more about how creative and engaging the competitor are with judges these days.


Technically being able to make the drink & sourcing good coffee is a prerequisite. I would argue a good barista is creative and engaging - given the driver for this thread its the 'engaging' part which specialty coffee isnt quite delivering yet.


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## Spazbarista

DavecUK said:


> Finally something we agree on.
> 
> your taste in decor, machines, cars and colours, perhaps not.....


I don't know why you are so desperate to find something on which to agree with me.

With kitchen tiles like yours, I should be the least of your worries.


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## Spazbarista

garydyke1 said:


> Technically being able to make the drink & sourcing good coffee is a prerequisite. I would argue a good barista is creative and engaging - given the driver for this thread its the 'engaging' part which specialty coffee isnt quite delivering yet.


The competition is run by a self-appointed industry marketing organisation.

Want to win their competition? Then turn up with a face and image that is marketable or forget it.


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## MWJB

Spazbarista said:


> The competition is run by a self-appointed industry marketing organisation.
> 
> Want to win their competition? Then turn up with a face and image that is marketable or forget it.


What exactly is it they are "marketing"?


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## Spazbarista

Themselves.....


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## MWJB

Enigmatic...I like it, but I'm still none the wiser.


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## origmarm

AndyS said:


> Dave, IMHO you grossly underestimate the difficulty, in a cafe environment. of doing ONE roast level really well and doing it hour after hour, day after day. Throw in 2-3 roast levels, plus people asking for ristrettos or not, and you have a perfect recipe for frustrated baristas and deeply disappointed customers.


I tend to agree with Dave on this in that I don't necessarily see the complexity. Having had limited shop experience it's not something I'm overly familiar with but given the amount of shops that have guest espressos on a separate grinder I wouldn't have thought it too much of a stretch. Ultimately I'm on the fence as to the commercial value here. My perception is that people like choice etc... hence the rise recently of the 'single origins' stuff at Starbucks etc... and certainly it's something I would appreciate. That said my perception may be distorted by the fact that I primarily work at the moment in the Bishopsgate/Old St area of London and the George St area of Edinburgh, both of which are hotspots for the 'light brigade' which may affect my perception of how much of a problem this is. Certainly I can't get a non-'acidic' espresso around either of those two areas easily. My feeling is that if you live in a different part of town you may have the opposite problem.

I guess overall one of the things about having a coffee shop for me is having that ability to show customers different tastes/blends/etc... so I like the idea of having some newer/more interesting stuff. That said I still recognise my preference for lower acidity coffee and as a result I'm often trapped between a Starbucks and a Sour face







. While I enjoy both I feel there's a commercial opportunity there for the sake of an extra grinder and a bit of time.


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## jeebsy

Allpress on Redchurch St do a darker roast and Nude's espresso blend isn't particularly light either


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## garydyke1

origmarm said:


> I tend to agree with Dave on this in that I don't necessarily see the complexity. Having had limited shop experience it's not something I'm overly familiar with but given the amount of shops that have guest espressos on a separate grinder I wouldn't have thought it too much of a stretch.


Depends, does the shops' machine allow for different temperatures on different groups? Thats an added cost if not.


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## DavecUK

origmarm said:


> I tend to agree with Dave on this in that I don't necessarily see the complexity.
> 
> I guess overall one of the things about having a coffee shop for me is having that ability to show customers different tastes/blends/etc... so I like the idea of having some newer/more interesting stuff. That said I still recognise my preference for lower acidity coffee and as a result I'm often trapped between a Starbucks and a Sour face
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . While I enjoy both I feel there's a commercial opportunity there for the sake of an extra grinder and a bit of time.


Exactly, grinders don't take up huge amounts of space and to offer dark and light roasts for the sake of an extra grinder or two isn't hard. For some reason though people want to sit on the side of what's easy for the retailers....as a consumer, I don't care, I want choice. Not the choice to go to a different shop, but if in a coffee shop with friends, to have a choice of darker or lighter roast.


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## origmarm

jeebsy said:


> Allpress on Redchurch St do a darker roast and Nude's espresso blend isn't particularly light either


I have Redchurch a fair bit actually. My neighbour owns a series of shops and the one local to our house does Redchurch. They have a facility at London Bridge I was at recently that was good. Bit of a trek though to both from Liv St. The best local for darker stuff is 'The Liberty of Norton Foldgate'. Like that place for Espresso


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## origmarm

garydyke1 said:


> Depends, does the shops' machine allow for different temperatures on different groups? Thats an added cost if not.


I hadn't thought of this it's true. That said when I've talked to a few folk I've been amazed how little people change this from initial setup. Even given this though I would think you calibrate for your house and the secondary blend takes a slight quality hit on the shot.


----------



## garydyke1

origmarm said:


> I hadn't thought of this it's true. That said when I've talked to a few folk I've been amazed how little people change this from initial setup. Even given this though I would think you calibrate for your house and the secondary blend takes a slight quality hit on the shot.


So you serve your premium offering at a lower standard ?


----------



## origmarm

garydyke1 said:


> So you serve your premium offering at a lower standard ?


You serve your house preference roast at the preferred temp and then the second roast takes a quality hit by being served at the same temp. You're still offering more choice than you were. To be frank I'd bet 95% of customers would never know.


----------



## AndyS

DavecUK said:


> I don't underestimate the difficulty (but nice of you to assume that I do). It can be done and has been done, it requires more than 1 grinder is all....
> 
> I find it amazing that you can argue against offering the customers light and dark roasts, normale and ristretto shots, from which to make their drinks....You should be arguing for a change like this, you should be arguing for more choice about how you have your drink.


My preference is different than yours (and it's OK that we disagree). My preference is for every third wave shop to offer their own really well done, unique style of coffee making. When I go from shop to shop I'd be thrilled to taste something that is special to that shop and extremely delicious. When I go to another shop I'd hope they have something different but also really delicious.

In my experience the odds of getting a delicious coffee are improved if the cafe keeps things simple and the barista doesn't have too many coffees to dial in and too many grinders to manage. Also in my experience, shops that offer five or six different coffees prepared several different ways rarely do a top notch job preparing any of them.


----------



## Mrboots2u

AndyS said:


> My preference is different than yours (and it's OK that we disagree). My preference is for every third wave shop to offer their own really well done, unique style of coffee making. When I go from shop to shop I'd be thrilled to taste something that is special to that shop and extremely delicious. When I go to another shop I'd hope they have something different but also really delicious.
> 
> In my experience the odds of getting a delicious coffee are improved if the cafe keeps things simple and the barista doesn't have too many coffees to dial in and too many grinders to manage. Also in my experience, shops that offer five or six different coffees prepared several different ways rarely do a top notch job preparing any of them.


Is it ok if we agree also ......

Plus one on above


----------



## DavecUK

AndyS said:


> In my experience the odds of getting a delicious coffee are improved if the cafe keeps things simple and the barista doesn't have too many coffees to dial in and too many grinders to manage. Also in my experience, shops that offer five or six different coffees prepared several different ways rarely do a top notch job preparing any of them.


I don't think I said this? What I said was:



> What I would like is to see people have a bit more choice, because I actually think it's more important to have 2-3 roast levels of a couple of coffees, than 6 different single origins and whatever else on offer, all roasted the same way. it would also be super nice if they asked you whether you wanted a ristretto shot or not.....to make whatever drink your going to have using it.


It's also not beyond human ken to have these 2 coffees change on a regular basis. Perhaps some shops can even manage 1 house blend, served at 1 roast level then 2 guest coffees at darker and lighter roast levels. I actually think this will eventually happen as the market becomes saturated and they try and find more ways to differentiate themselves. Also what shop would not want to experiment this way to find what their customers truly prefer. Over the years companies we would consider "retail experts" have managed to get things completely wrong, so it's "possible" these coffee shops might be surprised at what they find.

Even if a shop started at 2 coffees with one of them served at a lighter and darker roast, it would only be 3 grinders.....I really don't think it's that hard....and it would certainly tell them a hell of a lot. As for dialling in grinders, of a trained Barista can't dial in a grinder within a few shots....then perhaps they are in the wrong job?


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## Mrboots2u

Depends a lot of cafe's suffer from high staff turnover and poor retention of staff . Adding in 3-4 espresso blends or origins to make ... I can see why that might make it harder to train .

Not that it's rocker science but you then have to establish a buying pattern for your 3 espresso blends as opposed to one , to make sure that you don't run out of the lesser popular roasts or they go stale . Controlling wastage in a cafe is key to making any profit ...

I like variety , i tend to seek it from a cafe simple menu with what they offer for espresso and brew method.

But that's just me ...


----------



## CallumT

Martin, Hit the nail right on the head.

Dave it isn't about it being 'hard' to run more coffees, the distinctly 'hard' part is staff; and fair point 'trained' staff helps but the all important key is staff that actually care about quality control and know enough about the coffees that are in service to know what should be going in what drink or if it needs to be sinked. This is a skilled barista to me; everyone knows espresso service is hard, but intricate knowledge of whats being served allows these judgements to be made.

And working behind the bar myself, I'd love to add to the fact that three espresso grinders on the bar is only going to result in a ridiculed amount of wastage, unless you have a particularly quality focused and interested customer base, and if you had this why would you even think about a darker roast. Coffee service should be about education, I'm pretty negative about customers but it only takes one customer per shift that actually wants to talk about coffee and I'll have had a much better day at work.

Added on top of this is why would most people make this amount of investment, for business' quite often the sheer importance of the quality of in service grinders is overlooked (hence the ridiculous amount of inconsistencies that can arise in coffee) ; and then to wrap all this up independents offer all this knowledge and sacrifice their own profit margins by serving high quality coffee and yet still we cant charge more than ~£3 a cup. And even then people turn up their noses at the idea a guest coffee might incur an additional surcharge









On an end note, try putting up an advert for a skilled barista and see how many kids drop in thinking coffee's so hip and cool, and hence why they like the idea of being a barista.


----------



## Jon

This quote sums up a lot of my thinking:

"In 1978 if you wanted to buy beans you went to Harrods, somewhere like that. It was all very exclusive and male, which I hated; but I fear that exclusivity has come back. That's one of the things we fight against. We have to welcome and invite people in. We mustn't make people feel belittled, patronised and embarrassed." Too often, she says, the modern cult of coffee does precisely that.

I agree!


----------



## CallumT

Thing is, Coffee and men is like Cycling and men ; its not exclusivity at all its just coincidence that there's a general lack of interest of doing on their behalf....


----------



## garydyke1

CallumT said:


> Martin, Hit the nail right on the head.
> 
> Dave it isn't about it being 'hard' to run more coffees, the distinctly 'hard' part is staff; and fair point 'trained' staff helps but the all important key is staff that actually care about quality control and know enough about the coffees that are in service to know what should be going in what drink or if it needs to be sinked. This is a skilled barista to me; everyone knows espresso service is hard, but intricate knowledge of whats being served allows these judgements to be made.
> 
> And working behind the bar myself, I'd love to add to the fact that three espresso grinders on the bar is only going to result in a ridiculed amount of wastage, *unless you have a particularly quality focused and interested customer base, and if you had this why would you even think about a darker roast*. Coffee service should be about education, I'm pretty negative about customers but it only takes one customer per shift that actually wants to talk about coffee and I'll have had a much better day at work.
> 
> Added on top of this is why would most people make this amount of investment, for business' quite often the sheer importance of the quality of in service grinders is overlooked (hence the ridiculous amount of inconsistencies that can arise in coffee) ; and then to wrap all this up independents offer all this knowledge and sacrifice their own profit margins by serving high quality coffee and yet still we cant charge more than ~£3 a cup. And even then people turn up their noses at the idea a guest coffee might incur an additional surcharge
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On an end note, try putting up an advert for a skilled barista and see how many kids drop in thinking coffee's so hip and cool, and hence why they like the idea of being a barista.


Are you ready for the Anderson shelter? I agree mate 100%

I would personally prefer to walk into a cafe who's owner(s) and staff care passionately about the drinks they are serving. Clear, focused dedication to excellence . not a massive multi jack-of-all trades offering. If they are compromising on quality to offer more choice thats a lose lose situation - people who care about coffee right now are not getting what they want (''this isnt specialty'') and people who might one day care about coffee have nothing to aspire to.


----------



## CallumT

Totally agree, if you don't believe in a produce you shouldn't sell it. End of.

Gary your point about group temps and inherent costs of a machine with that capability is pretty sweet. Forgot to mention this









Public perception is a difficult thing to change, and only excellent service should be able to open peoples eyes to 'real' coffee


----------



## DavecUK

So what you guys are saying is, educate the customer, show them what coffee should be, stick to your principles.....wow, consumer certainly isn't king , looks like they are there to pander to the needs of the "speciality" coffee shops. I hope things change....soon. There appears to be so much need to be "different", I wonder if the coffee suffers?


----------



## Charliej

> unless you have a particularly quality focused and interested customer base, and if you had this why would you even think about a darker roast
Click to expand...

Callum,

I'm interested in your thought process behind this statement, as it would certainly seem that we all agree that a charcoal roast in completely undesirable whatever side of the fence one occupies. How would you quantify "darker"? darker than what? where is the basepoint from which to decide whether something is lighter or darker? I would venture to say that a lot of the Nordic coffee shops would say that Workshop or Square Mile are "darker" roasts from their default position. Also why does having a "quality focused and interested customer base" preclude a darker roast being on offer ? , there are plenty of passionate, enthusiastic, quality focused and knowledgeable people around these parts that prefer a darker roast of bean. I'm not arguing from one point of view or the other as I enjoy different stuff myself these days but I think excluding lovers of darker roasts this way is kind of more than a little "up itself"

Has Bean, one of the roasters that seems to polarise the community the most offer light roasts and some they describe as medium dark, yet to some people even the Has Bean definition of this would seem too light.


----------



## Geordie Boy

CallumT said:


> if you don't believe in a produce you shouldn't sell it. End of.


That's a very romantic ideal but you will always get people who will sell something because they can make money off it, that will never change. Annoying for people who care about their product but that's competition for you


----------



## Mrboots2u

Misconceptions part 1

Habean last 4 IMM from a wonderful fruity yirg to a knock out chocolate bomb espresso ( yes medium roast ) .

All suitable for brewe to espresso IMHO

Painting ANY roaster which such a broad brush as too light or too sour based on trying a limited amount of their coffee ,really frustrates me ....


----------



## Geordie Boy

Agree there Boots! Roast level doesn't guarantee specific flavours


----------



## garydyke1

If every shop pandered to what they think customers are likely to want we would just have carbon-copy starbucks, costas....oh wait a minute. Sometimes in an industry you have to push boundaries , try something new - be brave - to quote someone I know ''you have to fail harder''. The public might initially be scared of what your'e doing, they may reject it, shoot it down because they don't understand it . Specialty is still in this place, its getting better though...slowly.

Specialty is about improving the standard of coffee - driving quality of the ingredient and the best technical execution of extracting that ingredient and charging more! We need to charge more but justify why AND prove why - prove it silently in the cup...or prove it in dialogue - educating not dictating.

Specialty is also about engaging customers, bringing them along, not forcing concepts down their throat. However we have to accept not every customer will be receptive, or understand, they just want their textbook big-chain coffee and get on with their lives - and thats fine, we cant make everyone happy. I would argue though, to be specialty you have to stick to your guns and believe in the product and service.

Liking something and sometime being 'good' are two different things. Not everyone will like something, even if it is good. Just make sure what you're doing is as good as it can be!


----------



## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> Has Bean, one of the roasters that seems to polarise the community the most offer light roasts and some they describe as medium dark, yet to some people even the Has Bean definition of this would seem too light.


This is quite off the mark and makes me a little bit sad.

Taking a random selection of beans :

Roasting Information

*Take this into second crack*, but slow the roast down and drag out if you can to increase already big body.

"Quick Look" Guide

Nutty, bold, big tobacco, cigars

--------

Roasting Information

Medium to medium dark, from *before second to just into it, nowhere else*. This one needs to be treated very carefully.

"Quick Look" Guide

Raspberry, honey, melted chocolate, smooth, very clean.

--------

Roasting Information

Nice and light, a good solid medium roast but *nowhere near second crack*.

"Quick Look" Guide

Citrus, super clean, lemon icing, aftertaste, mouthfeel, texture.

The 1st and 2nd crack elements are not subjective, they are quantifiable defined parts of the roasting sequence.

This snapshot of three different roasts proves variety and no light roasting ethos! But perception is sadly reality in many cases.


----------



## MWJB

CallumT said:


> Coffee service should be about education, I'm pretty negative about customers but it only takes one customer per shift that actually wants to talk about coffee and I'll have had a much better day at work.


Callum, I fear you're potentially playing right into Rayner's hands here? Coffee service should be about a well executed beverage (irrespective of preferred roast level - which I think Charlie makes a good point, that this is somewhat elective), education should be available, but on request. I think sometimes this is what exacerbates the gap between 'the promise' & the product and is perhaps what's really at the core of the discussion? We will be told about what is great about a given coffee, our expectations lifted & then cruelly dashed if the beverage falls short (for whatever reason - clash of expectation, poor execution etc.). Once your expectations are lifted, then it's all the easier to have them dashed..."OK/simply good" doesn't cut it any more, when youre expecting "Wow!"?

Honestly, as a customer, I'd rather be presented with a coffee & left to make up my own mind, take it on it's own merits & have the option to investigate it further if I so choose. I assume that somebody has done the background work & come to a reasonable conclusion as to why they are selling what they are & presenting it in that manner.


----------



## VJC

Geordie Boy said:


> That's a very romantic ideal but you will always get people who will sell something because they can make money off it, that will never change. Annoying for people who care about their product but that's competition for you


This. Whilst I've only recently come to speciality coffee, I've already found out that it's a far bigger topic than I ever realised - 99% of the general public will never be bothered to put the time and effort in to learn each and every facet of it as most people just want a good coffee. Give a choice of "better than costabucks" coffees and people will buy them.



garydyke1 said:


> If every shop pandered to what they think customers are likely to want we would just have carbon-copy starbucks, costas....oh wait a minute.


No you won't look at the millions of independent non-speciality cafes out there; my favorite is an art gallery as well as a coffee shop - it has 3 roasts, a local speciality roaster, an italian coffee and a third that changes. They don't even do espressos* they serve their coffee in a metal french press with a small mug for you to decant and drink from after you've pressed the filter down as well as a small mug of milk. The coffee is better than anything served by the big chains, the food is quite good (vegan & veggie options only, including soya milk for your coffee if you want instead of dairy) but the unique atmosphere is why most people go there more than anything else. It's almost totally volunteer run too, so the people care.

The fact is their USP isn't their coffee, it's the surroundings & there's no reason why speciality coffee shops can't make better that costabucks coffee, but still cater for all tastes - most customers will never notice the difference if the coffee isn't perfect but the surroundings and the staff are great. They just want a pleasant place to hang out with their friends and grab a coffee.

In short, there's no reason to make good the enemy of the perfect specially at the expense of customer experiences.

*I know they've recently got a espresso machine, so this may change soon.


----------



## Charliej

garydyke1 said:


> This is quite off the mark and makes me a little bit sad.
> 
> Taking a random selection of beans :
> 
> Roasting Information
> 
> *Take this into second crack*, but slow the roast down and drag out if you can to increase already big body.
> 
> "Quick Look" Guide
> 
> Nutty, bold, big tobacco, cigars
> 
> --------
> 
> Roasting Information
> 
> Medium to medium dark, from *before second to just into it, nowhere else*. This one needs to be treated very carefully.
> 
> "Quick Look" Guide
> 
> Raspberry, honey, melted chocolate, smooth, very clean.
> 
> --------
> 
> Roasting Information
> 
> Nice and light, a good solid medium roast but *nowhere near second crack*.
> 
> "Quick Look" Guide
> 
> Citrus, super clean, lemon icing, aftertaste, mouthfeel, texture.
> 
> The 1st and 2nd crack elements are not subjective, they are quantifiable defined parts of the roasting sequence.
> 
> This snapshot of three different roasts proves variety and no light roasting ethos! But perception is sadly reality in many cases.


Gary how can it be off the mark? this is a commonly held position and whatever style of coffee you prefer Has Bean do seem to polarise this community more than any other roaster. None of this was having a pop at Has Bean it was simply talking about differing peoples perceptions using Has Bean as an example of that, as the general perception held these days, after a long period of Has Bean previously being the forums poster boys in terms of recommended roaster for newbies, is that the Has Bean "house style" (rightly or wrongly) is a lighter roast than say Rave or Coffee Compass.

As I stated earlier in the thread my personal choice, regardless of roast level, is to avoid the coffees that are higher in terms of acidity as I seem particularly sensitive to acidity in foods and drinks, whether this is in terms of very forward citrus notes and acidity in coffee or the levels of acidity of some types of tomato. Just to pose a question, is what we know and recognise as the characteristic mouth puckering taste and acidity of a freshly squeezed lemon purchased in this country and artificially ripened with gas in oxygen free storage, the un interfered with taste ? or is that of naturally ripened on the tree and freshly picked lemon, sweet and juicy, whilst at the same time having a level of acidity which identifies it as a lemon? Or is neither version correct but simply down to a personal or national perception of taste? I can eat a sun ripened lemon straight off the tree, but there is no way I could do that with a supermarket one, yet to that majority of people the supermarket one is how a lemon should taste.


----------



## Spazbarista

Hasbean used to roast dark and put robusta in their espresso blends


----------



## MWJB

Charliej said:


> As I stated earlier in the thread my personal choice, regardless of roast level, is to avoid the coffees that are higher in terms of acidity as I seem particularly sensitive to acidity in foods and drinks, whether this is in terms of very forward citrus notes and acidity in coffee or the levels of acidity of some types of tomato. Just to pose a question, is what we know and recognise as the characteristic mouth puckering taste and acidity of a freshly squeezed lemon purchased in this country and artificially ripened with gas in oxygen free storage, the un interfered with taste ? or is that of naturally ripened on the tree and freshly picked lemon, sweet and juicy, whilst at the same time having a level of acidity which identifies it as a lemon? Or is neither version correct but simply down to a personal or national perception of taste? I can eat a sun ripened lemon straight off the tree, but there is no way I could do that with a supermarket one, yet to that majority of people the supermarket one is how a lemon should taste.


Whilst there isn't a single, quantifiable roast level that signifies "quality/specialty" there are some things relating to acidity/acids that we should bear in mind. Just like your sun ripened lemon still contains citric acid, sweeter extracted coffee typically contains more acids (CGA's - according to a CBI funded study carried out by Merritt & Procter at MIT), than very acidic, less extracted coffee. I know we keep hitting this same point. You might say, "what if the numbers add up and it's still too acidic?", perfectly possible, but until we have some numbers there, we can only speculate as to how these factors actually relate to a specific cup. You have remarked on how much you have been enjoying longer shots from The Barn's lighter style espresso...what do you think happens when you push more water through a given puck (assuming extraction isn't clamped by grind/prep)?

Darker roasts are more soluble & easier to extract (often less objectionable when underextracted too), lighter are harder (so potentially more scope to drop into objectionable acidity, but if you can get in the zone, roast may not be considered too light?), the issue here strikes me as not being so much about what roast levels that people are/should be using/preferring, but more about whether the result in the cup is actually representative of the intent/promise? From what Gary & Mym say from their experiences at LCF, it seems this wasn't typically happening there.


----------



## Charliej

MWJB said:


> Whilst there isn't a single, quantifiable roast level that signifies "quality/specialty" there are some things relating to acidity/acids that we should bear in mind. Just like your sun ripened lemon still contains citric acid, sweeter extracted coffee typically contains more acids (CGA's - according to a CBI funded study carried out by Merritt & Procter at MIT), than very acidic, less extracted coffee. I know we keep hitting this same point. You might say, "what if the numbers add up and it's still too acidic?", perfectly possible, but until we have some numbers there, we can only speculate as to how these factors actually relate to a specific cup. You have remarked on how much you have been enjoying longer shots from The Barn's lighter style espresso...what do you think happens when you push more water through a given puck (assuming extraction isn't clamped by grind/prep)?
> 
> Darker roasts are more soluble & easier to extract (often less objectionable when underextracted too), lighter are harder (so potentially more scope to drop into objectionable acidity, but if you can get in the zone, roast may not be considered too light?), the issue here strikes me as not being so much about what roast levels that people are/should be using/preferring, but more about whether the result in the cup is actually representative of the intent/promise? From what Gary & Mym say from their experiences at LCF, it seems this wasn't typically happening there.


From talking to the barista at Takk where I bought the beans from, they were marked as a filter roast but as they only had 3 bags of each for sale I took a punt based on the tasting notes, and subsequent emails with The Barn I was well within parameters for it, the longer shots I've been enjoying recently , have been Coffee Compass roasts, medium-ish I'd call them plus a home blend made up of some MM from Roberts, a Nicaraguan from Coffee Compass and the Origin F30 blend we has as a DSOL offering have all been on the medium or medium plus side, the beans from the barn were all around 32-34g output from 20g input at 94 degrees C. That said the reason I bought those beans from The Barn were because the tasting notes didn't mention acidity whether it be white grape, green apple, citrus or otherwise but things like honey, Caramel, syrupy for the Costa Rican and the Brazilian had similar tasting notes to the Has Bean Brazilian beans I've had previously. For example if something mentions "forward" ,"bright", "bold" or "crisp" acidity I would most likely not buy them, just as I have never really enjoyed, however well made they have been, a lot of Kenyan coffee. In terms of cold drinks I can tolerate and enjoy levels of acidity that I simply don't like in coffee, for example a good Premier Cru Chablis is/was one of my favourite white wines ever, I really like a decent apple juice etc, and Key Lime Pie is one of my favourite ever desserts.

I think it's horses for courses, assuming nominal extraction ( yes I know a big assumption) there are some coffees I have tried that other people I have been with have loved and I haven't. After all the world would be boring if we all liked the same thing, here's another example however well made and seasoned and whatever the provenance you aren't going to find me ordering steak tartare or sashimi from anywhere I've tried it, from places with excellent reputations and don't like the way it tastes or how it feels in my mouth, yet I know some people wouldn't eat their fish or steak any other way.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Hasbean Re a commonly held opinion ..

Person A comes on forum.

Wants a " sweet tasting chocolate coffee " . person B recomends this roaster and that roaster and then say Hasbean roast light they are difficult to extract and taste sour. So person A never tries them. In fact person B never tried them they got this common held belief from person C who had one coffee and perhaps didnt extract it at the right ratio for the roast or palate....Whenever person A asks what roasters are like ohhh they are light sour acidic.....

Was also a common held view they earth was flat at one point.. No one had seem the edge of the world







they just hadn't seen over the horizon....


----------



## Xpenno

The only good thing that I can see coming from this thread is, that no matter what your personal preferences, that we are all passionate about coffee.


----------



## Charliej

Mrboots2u said:


> Hasbean Re a commonly held opinion ..
> 
> Person A comes on forum.
> 
> Wants a " sweet tasting chocolate coffee " . person B recomends this roaster and that roaster and then say Hasbean roast light they are difficult to extract and taste sour. So person A never tries them. In fact person B never tried them they got this common held belief from person C who had one coffee and perhaps didnt extract it at the right ratio for the roast or palate....Whenever person A asks what roasters are like ohhh they are light sour acidic.....
> 
> Was also a common held view they earth was flat at one point.. No one had seem the edge of the world
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they just hadn't seen over the horizon....


Some people still believe the earth is flat: http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

I don't recollect saying anywhere that this view of Has Bean was correct, simply that it is a view, and not one to which I subscribe, it was being used as an example of how differing people see light and dark roast, which is always a difficult one as there is no single reference point that from which to measure comparative roast level. To some people the darkest roast Has Bean sell, will still be too light for their tastes, you could probably say the same of Rave as well, someone who's personal idea of coffee heaven is the Coffee Compass Extra Dark Ethiopian would most likely find Rave's darkest roast a little too light for their tastes.

But back to the main point, it's not our place to disparage anyone for liking the beans they like whether dark or light roast, we can certainly endeavour to get people to try something different from their default mode- you can lead a horse to water and all that !!

Anyone who is passionate and interested in coffee and improving what they make at home should be encouraged and applauded, and no-one should go all wine snob on anyone else regarding their tastes, apart from when it involves the L-word beans a jam jar and a microwave.

Personally I would really really hate specialty coffee to end up the same way as wine snobbery- it's something that really annoys me here are some examples:



> Tim Adams Clare Valley Riesling; Ahh!! Riesling, crunchy apple, bit of pear, there's limes, sweat and touches of diesel, reminiscent of the handle of a rural petrol pump!


 I mean wtf?!!!?



> Dark as David Fincher, this beauty unwinds waves of hovercraft oil, BDSM dungeon sweat and Fair-trade biodynamic hand-cultivated chocolate from a mountaintop parcel of land in a coastal rainforest. A brooding mistress of devilish wonder - uncork it for a seance tonight or pair it with freshly killed goat from a voodoo ritual. This one will make you wonder what you're doing with your life.
Click to expand...


----------



## DavecUK

Charliej said:


> Personally I would really really hate specialty coffee to end up the same way as wine snobbery- it's something that really annoys me here are some examples:I mean wtf?!!!?





> This is a very sweet coffee with plenty of toffee notes and prominent blackberry and raspberry flavours. It has a silky body which is balanced well with a wine gum like acidity and hints of lime in the finish.


I agree with wine snobbery, good job we only have descriptions like this for coffee then


----------



## Spazbarista

I just think its sad that few here can spell speciality.


----------



## Spazbarista

In fact its gotten me so mad I'm going to sit down on my fanny and eat a cookie.


----------



## Charliej

Spazbarista said:


> I just think its sad that few here can spell speciality.


According to the Oxford Dictionary online either spelling is valid.


----------



## CallumT

DavecUK said:


> So what you guys are saying is, educate the customer, show them what coffee should be, stick to your principles.....wow, consumer certainly isn't king , looks like they are there to pander to the needs of the "speciality" coffee shops. I hope things change....soon. There appears to be so much need to be "different", I wonder if the coffee suffers?


If the customer was king surely you'd have sold them a machine; if someone comes into where I work I'll try and advise them on what I think they will like or what I think people should try. Same as if I want an opinion on craft beer or whiskey I'll say what I like then I'll ask what I should try based upon this.

In reality the goal of roasting coffee is to achieve something that you can brew to taste the coffee itself not any roasty by-products.

The customers I find myself engaged with most come into speciality coffee shops because they may not have yet mastered the intricate nature of brewing, so they'll ask about beans or what I'm doing. Of corse people come in for coffee but everyone clearly respects what the shop is about. And that matters.

If people want roasty flavours, then I wouldn't ever have the coffee on the bar.


----------



## CallumT

Charlie.

A dark roast is a dark roast. What I'm talking about is over roasting.

I'm not a fanboy of any roast colour at all, so long as it brews a coffee that is actually tasting as that coffee should and not of roast. Which I can understand the mis understanding.

I don't see my comment about not selling what I believe in as a romanticism at all, it's just your opinion on the matter if the customer goes ahead regardless then so be it. World still spins.

Anyway I'm off to go and pick up some coal to put in my new pestle and mortar.


----------



## Spazbarista

Charliej said:


> According to the Oxford Dictionary online either spelling is valid.


Look closer. Specialty is only used in English with regards to medicine. Coffee isn't medicine.









It would be correct if we were American, but most of us aren't.


----------



## Charliej

CallumT said:


> Charlie.
> 
> A dark roast is a dark roast. What I'm talking about is over roasting.
> 
> I'm not a fanboy of any roast colour at all, so long as it brews a coffee that is actually tasting as that coffee should and not of roast. Which I can understand the mis understanding.
> 
> I don't see my comment about not selling what I believe in as a romanticism at all, it's just your opinion on the matter if the customer goes ahead regardless then so be it. World still spins.
> 
> Anyway I'm off to go and pick up some coal to put in my new pestle and mortar.


The thing is not everyone agrees on what counts as dark though as there isn't a single reference spectrum as an example the Origin F30 blend we got as a DSOL lot wasn't dark by anyones standards it was a medium roast, a perfectly pleasant cafe blend for joe average with not distinguishing or redeeming features, yet to Origin they considered that to be a dark roast or to be precise as dark as they are prepared to go.

To be a pedant coffee that has been roasted tastes of the roast, as having tried a drink brewed in a cupping style from high quality greens at the Skybury Plantation next to the same bean the way they (the growers) believe it should be roasted and the brew from the greens was beyond revolting, it was sour, acidic, and astringent in a very medicinal sort of way and totally stripped the palate, but thats coffee as it tastes when not interfered with.

Now I haven't tried it but I would suspect that any greens brewed in that way wherever their origin would taste equally as vile, so any roasting is already "interfering" with the nature of the bean and it's taste and aroma. so "over roasting" is simply a function of perspective as witnessed by the different roasters treat the same bean, we all know that if we chose a bag of green beans and sent the same beans to every roaster on the list in the beans forum we would end up with the same number of different roasts as the number of roasters. I would suggest that pretty much all of us agree that charcoal like sludgy looking beans shiny with oil are over roasted other than that it horses for courses and to suggest that there is only one right way to roast starts us off down a very very slippery slope towards coffee being like wine snobbery, rather than being an inclusive thing where all views have a place.

For me I don't want my coffee, whatever ay it's brewed to taste like, for example (an extreme example maybe) of lemon tea, if I want to taste lemon tea I'll make exactly that and not a coffee. I'm saying this as someone who enjoys coffees, admittedly carefully chosen ones, from all through the roast spectrum.


----------



## jeebsy

I wouldn't go to a restaurant and order off the menu. If you don't like what's on offer to somewhere else.


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## Mrboots2u

" Now drink your weak lemon drink "

Who is the king of all hobbies?


----------



## CallumT

When did I ever say everyone should. I respect people like different coffees. As was said by Hoffman after the guardian article "it should all be done passionately"

But in reality, most people instantly put off lighter roasts because they can't properly extract them, combining this and trying to brew espresso just means the whole thing is easy to get wrong.

I shrugged the "lemon tea" comment off because I'd like to think I was more open minded. I guess some just like their coffee 'strong'.


----------



## Spazbarista

Mrboots2u said:


> " Now drink your weak lemon drink "
> 
> Who is the king of all hobbies?


The last thing Charlie needs is a Fist of Fun


----------



## Charliej

CallumT said:


> When did I ever say everyone should. I respect people like different coffees. As was said by Hoffman after the guardian article "it should all be done passionately"
> 
> But in reality, most people instantly put off lighter roasts because they can't properly extract them, combining this and trying to brew espresso just means the whole thing is easy to get wrong.
> 
> I shrugged the "lemon tea" comment off because I'd like to think I was more open minded. I guess some just like their coffee 'strong'.


I did say it was an extreme example in order to make a point, it wasn't based on anyone or anything other than my personal dislike of strong citrus notes in espresso. As I said earlier everyone has a different definition of over roasting, just for me the oft heard mantra of not interfering with the way the bean should be when roasting is quite frankly ridiculous as simply by roasting it to any degree you are altering the taste.

To dismiss peoples dislike of lighter roast as " they can't properly extract them" is a sweeping generalisation, it is more likely that they simply don't like that particular bean at that particular roast level i.e it is not to their tastes, nothing wrong with that at all it doesn't imply any ignorance or inability. It is simply the case that to some people lighter fruitier espresso with a bright forward acidity, however well extracted it is, is not a taste they like and for a proportion of these people no amount of "education" regarding that style of espresso is going to make them change their mind. For me personally if a barista decided to "educate me" about the coffee on offer despite having already made a choice of what to order and without me asking questions in order to make the decision I would be put off going back there however good the coffee is, in the same way I don't really like shops where the instant you walk through the door you get a sales assistant making suggestions without even knowing exactly what it is I have come in there for, I may just be browsing and if so I prefer to do just that on my own.

little in the same vein are statements made by anyone about "educating" the customer, this to me, implies a low opinion of the generic customers tastes, not everyone who likes good coffee is as passionate about it as most of us, some will go to speciality coffee shops because they like the coffee there, they don't want to be told exactly where it comes from down to the gps co-ordinates of the farm and plot where it was grown, or how it was processed or who by, they just want to enjoy a cup of coffee whilst out of their homes not to be "educated", if they wish to have this depth of knowledge they'll more than likely ask about the coffee.

As a business surely one should exist to serve the customer and sell them a coffee that they like, not to serve what you as a barista or owner like and think that the customer needs "educating" to come round to your point of view.

To come back to DaveC's point about serving different roasts of the same bean, most good steak restaurants will serve you your steak cooked to the way you like it not just say we only serve our steaks cooked to medium rare, so why is it a bad idea to give the customers more choice as this is surely more likely to engage them as they try to decide which version to have.

This needn't be a nightmare in service as many of you have said in other threads quite a few coffee shops have moved to using an EK43 for grinding for espresso and brewed so where's the difference in dialling things in to get "correct" extractions of 4 or 5 totally different beans as opposed to say 3 variations of the same bean?


----------



## garydyke1

Spazbarista said:


> In fact its gotten me so mad I'm going to sit down on my fanny and eat a cookie.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialty

lol


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## Mrboots2u

Can i drink my weak lemon drink now please?


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## Spazbarista

garydyke1 said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialty
> 
> Want to edit that Wiki page and correct it?


----------



## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> To dismiss peoples dislike of lighter roast as " they can't properly extract them" is a sweeping generalisation,


Not the first time we have seen a sweeping generalisation today


----------



## Mrboots2u

mrboots2u said:


> can i drink my weak lemon drink now please?


answer me !


----------



## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> As a business surely one should exist to serve the customer and sell them a coffee that they like, not to serve what you as a barista or owner like and think that the customer needs "educating" to come round to your point of view.


I agree with this , customers needs ahead of the business needs HOWEVER a business needs a target customer. Should every fine dining establishment offer burger, fries, diet coke and an action figure?


----------



## Spazbarista

Mrboots2u said:


> answer me !


Acidic coffee is the nemsis of hobby. And I shall not rest until it is destroy-ed!


----------



## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> quite a few coffee shops have moved to using an EK43 for grinding for espresso and brewed so where's the difference in dialling things in to get "correct" extractions of 4 or 5 totally different beans as opposed to say 3 variations of the same bean?


Ever tried a >21% dark roast extraction through an EK? eeeeewwwww


----------



## garydyke1

Spazbarista said:


> Acidic coffee is the nemsis of hobby. And I shall not rest until it is destroy-ed!


All coffee is acidic, sorry about that Quinlank


----------



## MWJB

Charliej said:


> To dismiss peoples dislike of lighter roast as " they can't properly extract them" is a sweeping generalisation, it is more likely that they simply don't like that particular bean at that particular roast level i.e it is not to their tastes, nothing wrong with that at all it doesn't imply any ignorance or inability. It is simply the case that to some people lighter fruitier espresso with a bright forward acidity, however well extracted it is, is not a taste they like and for a proportion of these people no amount of "education" regarding that style of espresso is going to make them change their mind.


It's perhaps not a dismissal, perhaps there is a more tangible relationship than you realise? There are plenty of medium roast espressos with chocolate, toffee, caramel notes, rounded acidity (rather than bright, citrus-fruit tasting notes)...if these are still objectionably acidic, then a low level of extraction really is the most likely scenario.

I'm not mad keen on bergamot, jasmine, black tea flavours...even in Earl Grey, erm...jasmine & black tea. But I normally like well extracted coffee, at least I don't dislike it. Underextraction may be more common than you realise & AndyS earlier made a good point that some industry folk may actually develop a taste for it, or at least not reject it, especially if they feel it adds to 'distinctiveness'.

Whilst, at the end of the day, lighter roast vs low extraction level may be a distinction without a difference to the person that is served such a shot, but talking about them as if they are synonymous clouds the issue. It may be overly common, it certainly isn't right, but correctly identifying possible flaws can be a path to fixing them.

I totally agree on the education issue however. I can't think of anything more annoying than being sold a poorly executed shot (we'll assume anything that lands in the cup & is horrible as "poorly executed", whether the flaw was introduced at roast, or PF, anywhere in between - it is still someone's responsibility to ensure the beverage is palatable), then be told it wasn't actually bad & that I just wasn't "getting it".


----------



## DavecUK

garydyke1 said:


> I agree with this , customers needs ahead of the business needs HOWEVER a business needs a target customer. Should every fine dining establishment offer burger, fries, diet coke and an action figure?


The best establishments will give you whatever you want if they can do it. Wifey and I used to cruise a lot (before the kids). On the QE2 we used to occasionally travel what they termed "Queens Grill", top grade of passage top restaurant on the ship. They had a menu, but said "whatever you want (whether its on the menu or not), if we have it and can do it we will and we prefer to get 12 hours notice, but even if you don't, we will try". I tested out the assertion one day and asked for a bacon cheese burger on a sesame seed bun with fries and a Milkshake....when I got to the table by god they had made it. It was a big bun but it had the sesame seeds, the thin fries and strawberry milkshake..it was exactly what I had asked for. The fact that they had to mince up and Aberdeen Angus fillet steak to do it was neither here nor there.

In fact most of the people dining in the Queens Grill, rarely ordered off the menu....that was the point of the top level of service. you could have exactly what you want cooked the way you wanted it. you want that steak well done, that's how you got it. if you wanted baked beans...by god you got them. Even lobster every day if they had stocks...nothing was too much trouble!

Specialty or Speciality, Coffee shops should be no different, if your going to offer a premium service, it needs to be what your customers want, or sufficient choice to try and achieve that. At the moment, it's just a like it or lump it attitude and one that implies you might need educating if you don't like it that way!

P.S. After I had my burger and fries, a lot of people actually ordered them over the next week or so, because when the food is so rich, sometimes comfort food is a blessing!


----------



## jeebsy

I completely disagree. The whole customer is always right thing annoys me. No they're not. Customers can be idiots.

If you want a burger go to a burger place. If you want fine dining so somewhere with a star. Don't go to le gavroche and ask Michel roux to cook you a fried egg and chips


----------



## Mrboots2u

I am unsure who that qe2 analogy on food actually applies to different roasts being served in a coffee shot

Steak/burger can cook to order, still the same essential item

Coffee can't be roasted to order on the spot and made into an espresso at the request of the customer.

Mark up on food at qe2 i imagine is enormous

Mark up on coffee isn't

Peoples expectations of level of choice and service paid for a £3 coffee i would suspect are slightly different to those that have shelled our for a luxury cruise.....Perhaps coffee shop could deliver that choice if people were prepared to pay a bit more for the product ....


----------



## jeebsy

DavecUK said:


> At the moment, it's just a like it or lump it attitude and one that implies you might need educating if you don't like it that way!


Or you should go somewhere else.


----------



## garydyke1

I prefer a place to have a sense of knowing what it is, and, doing it really well.

Would you suggest Colonna & Smalls were poor because they dont offer multi-roasting options?

I love this ''The resulting cups of coffee will be pretty different to the other 95 percent of the coffee landscape.''


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Was chatting to Pete, 108 Truro. His take on a lot of 3rd Wave places is they are travelling too far too fast - trying to offer too many options. He cited a place in Falmouth I'm going to check out this week. Pete said they have far too many beans on offer and wondered how they would turn over sufficient to deliver the beans at optimum freshness. Pete's view is keep it simple - couple of staple bean offering plus guest.


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## Spazbarista

Never mind all this coffee bollocks, I'm still reeling from DaveC's revelation that he used to go on cruises before he had kids...


----------



## jeebsy

Has the attitude of a cruise goer


----------



## DavecUK

Spazbarista said:


> Never mind all this coffee bollocks, I'm still reeling from DaveC's revelation that he used to go on cruises before he had kids...


Well I retired at 44 (nearly 10 years ago), when the kids were 2 years old and they are a little expensive.....so had to cut back a little. We used to go cruising twice per year and to Asia once or twice per year.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

DavecUK said:


> Well I retired at 44 (nearly 10 years ago), when the kids were 2 years old and they are a little expensive.....so had to cut back a little. We used to go cruising twice per year and to Asia once or twice per year.


That's obscene


----------



## MWJB

garydyke1 said:


> I prefer a place to have a sense of knowing what it is, and, doing it really well.


Plus one on that.


----------



## Xpenno

Thought this thread had dropped off the radar







#thereisnorightanswer


----------



## Spazbarista

DavecUK said:


> Well I retired at 44 (nearly 10 years ago), when the kids were 2 years old and they are a little expensive.....so had to cut back a little. We used to go cruising twice per year and to Asia once or twice per year.







So, no more cruising. What could replace something like that?

....Bowls


----------



## DavecUK

Spazbarista said:


>


Wow, sounds like you're still working....but no doubt with your quick wit, you will retire before 45 as well.







But you're right no more cruising for a while, done so much of it and there are other things to do.....and all of it much better than working. I expect you love your job though, can't remember what it was you said you did, but I am sure it's fulfilling?


----------



## Spazbarista

Yes, I do enjoy my work, actually. But I am aware that some people don't.

Anyway, I notice you haven't denied the bowls.


----------



## VJC

DavecUK said:


> The best establishments will give you whatever you want if they can do it. Wifey and I used to cruise a lot (before the kids). On the QE2 we used to occasionally travel what they termed "Queens Grill", top grade of passage top restaurant on the ship. They had a menu, but said "whatever you want (whether its on the menu or not), if we have it and can do it we will and we prefer to get 12 hours notice, but even if you don't, we will try".


Heh, I'm ethnically Indian - my mum often always orders things off menu at your average Indian restaurant (on the basis that they have both the ingredients & equipment, so any half-decent chef should be able to make her order) and always gets what she wants. It's not just the best of the best that cater for off-menu. Anywhere that cares about customer service should be willing to go the extra mile.

It's not "the customer is always right", but "give the customer what they ask for and they'll give you money and tell everyone how brilliant you are"


----------



## garydyke1

I do hope Maxwell would forgive me for using C&S as an example.

Not offering multi-roast style options, pandering to the customer, sticking to what they believe in - has this hurt his business?

If you take a look at http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g186370-d2366379-Reviews-Colonna_and_Small_s_Speciality_Coffee-Bath_Somerset_England.html

144 = excellent

1 = terrible

2 = poor

I think this summarises it :

''As a quick summary - we are indeed focusing and narrowing our approach in order to offer a unique and valuable (we think so, as do people who seek out the shop) product, environment and experience. In specialising we are sacrificing breadth for depth. Rather than offer a wide range of beverages, we instead offer a wide range and in-depth experience of speciality coffee - something which is not readily available.

If anything, specialist shops actually broaden the market place, resulting in more variety and choice for the customer overall. There are indeed many shops in Bath alone that offer a nice space with a broad range of café type drinks such as teas, smoothies and juices. The choice in this case may actually be choosing the right business to match your needs on that day. ''


----------



## jeebsy

http://www.onyxtonics.com/musings/2014/5/30/coffees-sos-single-origin-scare


----------



## jeebsy

VJC said:


> Heh, I'm ethnically Indian - my mum often always orders things off menu at your average Indian restaurant (on the basis that they have both the ingredients & equipment, so any half-decent chef should be able to make her order) and always gets what she wants. It's not just the best of the best that cater for off-menu. Anywhere that cares about customer service should be willing to go the extra mile.
> 
> It's not "the customer is always right", but "give the customer what they ask for and they'll give you money and tell everyone brilliant good you are"


Maybe if you want to be the coffee equivalent of Avicii.


----------



## coffeechap

jeebsy said:


> http://www.onyxtonics.com/musings/2014/5/30/coffees-sos-single-origin-scare


That's a nice retort good find jeebsy


----------



## jeebsy

coffeechap said:


> That's a nice retort good find jeebsy


JR retweeted it saying it was a thoughtful response


----------



## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> Maybe if you want to be the coffee equivalent of Avicii.


I'm not sure how many people are going to get that reference


----------



## Mrboots2u

VJC said:


> Heh, I'm ethnically Indian - my mum often always orders things off menu at your average Indian restaurant (on the basis that they have both the ingredients & equipment, so any half-decent chef should be able to make her order) and always gets what she wants. It's not just the best of the best that cater for off-menu. Anywhere that cares about customer service should be willing to go the extra mile.
> 
> It's not "the customer is always right", but "give the customer what they ask for and they'll give you money and tell everyone brilliant good you are"


Get how that works in a restaurant and can be simply achieved

Coffee shops don't roast on demand to a customers preference

A lot of them buy wholesale from a roaster like SQM say who provide a certain range of roast .

This allows them to attempt to make some money by leveraging bulk buys and keeping that all too crippling wastage to a minimum

There are some old school roasters in the north who have coffee menus in shops , there make uniformly awful coffee of all types

There isn't a lot of money in retailing £2-50-3.00 coffee from one shop .


----------



## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


> I'm not sure how many people are going to get that reference


I'm almost too old to get it. Maybe you could provide a more relevant one


----------



## VJC

jeebsy said:


> Maybe if you want to be the coffee equivalent of Avicii.


Sorry, I don't get the reference.



Mrboots2u said:


> Get how that works in a restaurant and can be simply achieved
> 
> Coffee shops don't roast on demand to a customers preference
> 
> A lot of them buy wholesale from a roaster like SQM say who provide a certain range of roast .
> 
> This allows them to attempt to make some money by leveraging bulk buys and keeping that all too crippling wastage to a minimum
> 
> There are some old school roasters in the north who have coffee menus in shops , there make uniformly awful coffee of all types
> 
> There isn't a lot of money in retailing £2-50-3.00 coffee from one shop .


Sure, and for top quality, premium shops they shoud do one thing & do it really well. But at the same time, we shouldn't make the good the enemy of the perfect & I'd love for local coffee shops to just be "better than costabucks" and offer a range of coffees. Back to the food example, Costa\Starbucks are like McDonalds; speciality coffeeshops are often like Michilin star restaraunts.

Don't tell me there's no niche in between the two extremes for mid-range indie shops to introduce different coffees to people, even if they're not as good as top speciality shops.


----------



## jeebsy

Strive for middle of the road. Great ambition.


----------



## coffeechap

Middle of the road is where the money is though. If you can knock the socks off the high st with good solid coffee offering a decent choice then you are on to a winner, [email protected] have built up a reputation as being exceptional, but that took a long time, plus barista accolades and diversification, not all shops are going to achieve this. So that middle ground is where the money is at


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## Mrboots2u

Chirpy chirpy cheap cheap ... Yeah


----------



## jeebsy

I'm an unashamed snob/purist/wank, am with most things from music to food and coffee.

Depends if your focus is money or product though, st some point there's a trade off. Harris +hoole are probably going for a more middle ground approach so it'll be interesting to see how they do.


----------



## VJC

jeebsy said:


> I'm an unashamed snob/purist/wank, am with most things from music to food and coffee.
> 
> Depends if your focus is money or product though, st some point there's a trade off. Harris +hoole are probably going for a more middle ground approach so it'll be interesting to see how they do.


It's not just the money, when I'm out and about & want a coffee I currently have a choice of Costa or Starbucks, I want more than those two choices and I want a better coffee.

My city has no specialty coffee shops; even if it had loads, I don't want to have to seek out the one shop that brews it the way I like it just to grab a quick drink with friends - and then what happens if one of us likes it dark, others like it floral, fruity etc. One place that caters for us all would surely be the best option; after all coffee is far better with others than when drunk alone (and that's what Starbucks, costa and the other chains have caught on to - it's about the whole experience, not just the drink).


----------



## DavecUK

VJC said:


> Heh, I'm ethnically Indian - my mum often always orders things off menu at your average Indian restaurant (on the basis that they have both the ingredients & equipment, so any half-decent chef should be able to make her order) and always gets what she wants. It's not just the best of the best that cater for off-menu. Anywhere that cares about customer service should be willing to go the extra mile.
> 
> It's not "the customer is always right", but "give the customer what they ask for and they'll give you money and tell everyone how brilliant you are"


Best doesn't have a price...it has an "attitude" to customer service. I think some of these "speciality" coffee shops would do better to offer less beans, but perhaps with varying roast levels. I think people (I'm not talking about forum members) would genuinely be surprised at the differences in the same coffee at different roast levels. It would open up new markets and flavours for customers. This is especially true given the myriad of prep methods and drink types that exist.

I just remember when H&H opened in Tesco and their Baristas were giving tasting sessions. I asked for an espresso and he said oh this bean is not good for espresso, I said well use the other bean then...oh that's not good for espresso either. It was a very light roasted bean (Guatamalan I think) and he was right, it wasn't good as espresso. So what happened to my choice and I simply don't understand some people on here who seem to think this attitude is OK. We should have it their way or the highway, we need educating? You have to remember this forum is a VERY small number of the coffee drinking population, really really small. To make matters more complex, we are a very small number of the speciality coffee drinking population. A few of you saw all the roasters BB has and that was just half of one delivery and those come every 6-8 weeks, who do you think is buying all those roasters....not people on this forum.

There are a lot of people out there who regularly drink coffee and a lot who would if they could get a drink that they really liked. Instead they have the odd sugary coffee cocktail at Costabucks, with syrup and whipped cream and figure they really don't like coffee except for that. Many times I have met someone who says "I don't like coffee", only to see the astonishment on their face at a properly prepared latte, with coffee perhaps roasted more to their taste. Or someone having an Americano saying, I would drink coffee more if I could get coffee tasting like this.

It's not speciality shops educating people, it's about discovery, people finding out for themselves, this only comes with choice....something people don't have much of in coffee today. I still maintain, have a house blend if they need to, then 1 or 2 different guest coffees each week/month. The guest coffee (s) given 2 levels of roast (if it can take it). This is the only way people learn. Gradually expose people to the many many different coffees out there.

Of course the real money to be made is not in coffee per se, but in the food service these establishments offer. I know someone said there is not much profit in coffee....where is the profit margin is aboujt the highest of any product their is. The problem is people tend to only have one cup, so the total spend is not that high...much more money can be made, albiet at a lower margin, on food.


----------



## Charliej

That is in some ways an interesting article Jeebsy, so I read a few more posts of this guys blog and the more I read the more I became certain he has his head stuck firmly in his own fundament. Most of his posts seem to be about him knowing best and one thing I find utterly ridiculous is his assertion that Speciality/Specialty coffee is only about lighter roasts and that as an extension of this lighter roast = good, darker roast = bad, and people who like a darker roast are both lacking in knowledge and taste.


----------



## ShortShots

Charliej said:


> That is in some ways an interesting article Jeebsy, so I read a few more posts of this guys blog and the more I read the more I became certain he has his head stuck firmly in his own fundament. Most of his posts seem to be about him knowing best and one thing I find utterly ridiculous is his assertion that Speciality/Specialty coffee is only about lighter roasts and that as an extension of this lighter roast = good, darker roast = bad, and people who like a darker roast are both lacking in knowledge and taste.


I'm not quite sure that's a fair judgement. Now from his viewpoint as an employee of colonna and smalls, and cup tasting competitor/champion, lighter roasts will always showcase the unique factors of the terroir more so than darker roasts, so I see where he's coming from. But I don't think he makes a point of saying that it is ever wrong to dark roast. (correct me if I've missed a glaring declaration- I may have). But I can kind of see where he was coming from. If I spent a lot of money on a coffee that was meticulously grown, picked and processed, scored very high (or high enough to be declared 'Specialty') I would expect it to have some pretty damn amazing flavours that could only really be shown at lighter/medium roasts. Don't get me wrong I love a dark roast too, but I'm not sure I would pay for a 90+ scoring coffee and roast it up to 2nd crack and further (there may be the odd exception dependant on roast style)!

As usual it's a case of each to their own, but if I were trying to showcase specialty grade coffee and its nuances to the public (who may or may not be educated) I would want it to stand alone as a product


----------



## Mrboots2u

I thought that article was a balanced and eloquent response .

Jay Rayner tweeted it out himself for people to look at earlier.

Unsure where the fight is here


----------



## Mrboots2u

Charliej said:


> That is in some ways an interesting article Jeebsy, so I read a few more posts of this guys blog and the more I read the more I became certain he has his head stuck firmly in his own fundament. Most of his posts seem to be about him knowing best and one thing I find utterly ridiculous is his assertion that Speciality/Specialty coffee is only about lighter roasts and that as an extension of this lighter roast = good, darker roast = bad, and people who like a darker roast are both lacking in knowledge and taste.


Surely dark roast good

Anything lemon bad


----------



## VJC

DavecUK said:


> Best doesn't have a price...it has an "attitude" to customer service.


Quoted for truth - I know that my favorite cafe is probably not the one with the "best" coffee (though they do sell a locally roasted speciality coffee), but the one with the best atmosphere; including great customer service, brilliant staff (mostly volunteers) and it's also an art gallery and community space (it's a not-for-profit CIC).

Whilst they probably don't know as much about coffee as many on this thread, the coffee is a whole lot better than CostaBucks and non-"coffee people" enjoy it too (their chocolate cake is divine).

If anyone's in Southampton ever, try them out: http://thearthousesouthampton.org/


----------



## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> Most of his posts seem to be about him knowing best and one thing I find utterly ridiculous is his assertion that Speciality/Specialty coffee is only about lighter roasts and that as an extension of this lighter roast = good, darker roast = bad, and people who like a darker roast are both lacking in knowledge and taste.


I would say most of YOUR posts of late are around this and introducing a whole dark v light element to threads (IMM thread for example, you are not a subscriber are you?) everyone else just seems to be voicing the enjoyment of their coffee the way they like it?


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## garydyke1

ShortShots said:


> cup tasting competitor/champion, lighter roasts will always showcase the unique factors of the terroir more so than darker roasts, so I see where he's coming from.


SCAA guidelines:

Roasting

The sample should be roasted within 24 hours of cupping and allowed to rest for at least 8 hours.

Roast profile should be a light to light-medium roast, measured via the M- Basic (Gourmet) Agtron scale of approximately 58 on whole bean and 63 on ground, +/- 1 point (55-60 on the standard scale or Agtron/SCAA Roast tile #55).

The roast should be completed in no less than 8 minutes and no more than 12 minutes. Scorching or tipping should not be apparent.


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## Charliej

garydyke1 said:


> I would say most of YOUR posts of late are around this and introducing a whole dark v light element to threads (IMM thread for example, you are not a subscriber are you?) everyone else just seems to be voicing the enjoyment of their coffee the way they like it?


As I said in the 1st line of my post about this I found the post Jeebsy linked to interesting and so I read a few more of his blog posts in which he firmly equates Speciality Coffee as only being lighter roasts and that people who would prefer a darker roast need education or persuading otherwise.

As regards the IMM post as I recall it was you who took a swipe at DSOL subscribers initially. I am also not the only one disagreeing with lighter roasting not being the only way, in fact I have made it clear on more than one occasion that what I PERSONALLY DO NOT LIKE is overly bright citrusy coffee, or coffees that get described has being bright or having a very forward acidity or a crisp acidity or a a citric acidity, I don't mean sour under extracted or badly extracted coffee, but coffee that is supposed to have notes I described. Working around my own personal tastes I have tried more than one, carefully chosen, lighter roast and enjoyed it.

What I will never buy into is the idea that someone who likes or prefers darker roast coffee has an uneducated and/or unrefined palate. A question here for you Gary, as malted barley is a major ingredient for pretty much most beer brewing, the barley can also be subjected to lighter and darker roasts, with darker roast malts traditionally being used to make milds or porters or stouts do you subscribe to the same view of this as you do coffee? i.e. that only lighter roasted malt should be used and that darker beers are less complex and refined?

Here are a few choice quotes from the blog jeebsy linked to taken from other blog posts as well as the one linked to in this thread but all by the same guy.



> When we get someone that is new to speciality coffee, they don't necessarily know how to drink it. That's okay. They are not the expert, you are.





> The worst part about Speciality coffee is that most people still haven't had it yet. They don't get to drink it because the things that are generally sold as "speciality coffee" are crap. Over-roasted beans, poorly pulled shots, inconsistently brewed coffees&#8230;





> Our goals are different than commodity coffee. We are exploring the wide spectrum of coffee's potential. For us that means roasting lighter to highlight the differences between different coffees. If you want the dark roasted blend that you've come to know and love&#8230; we don't have that


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## Mrboots2u

Charlie -swipe is harsh , tongue in cheek joke was more apt .

It would seem your argument is with the blogger more than anyone here to be honest .


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## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> As regards the IMM post as I recall it was you who took a swipe at DSOL subscribers initially.


Not at all. That particular coffee exhibits all the attributes that people who enjoy DSOL beans are seeking. I suggested you would enjoy it, I think you would.


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## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> . A question here for you Gary, as malted barley is a major ingredient for pretty much most beer brewing, the barley can also be subjected to lighter and darker roasts, with darker roast malts traditionally being used to make milds or porters or stouts do you subscribe to the same view of this as you do coffee? i.e. that only lighter roasted malt should be used and that darker beers are less complex and refined?


The analogy is flawed. Malts are used as per the beers style ...and style comes from what works with the local source water of the origin.... Base malts are always pale tho, the grain bill is never 100% roasted , there isnt the fermentable sugars or diastatic power required. It would taste rank.

You can taste the difference between british maris otter and american 2-row if you use them exclusively in a 'smash' beer of singular malt and singular hop.


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## Spazbarista

Light vs dark

Lager vs stout

It amounts to the same thing. It took a visit to a roastery, pulling a shot of their coffee, hearing it pronounced by them as balanced, but tasting it and finding it was disgusting ....before I knew for sure it wasn't a lack of skill on my part, merely different tastes to the roasters.


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## Mrboots2u

Spazbarista said:


> Light vs dark
> 
> Lager vs stout
> 
> It amounts to the same thing. It took a visit to a roastery, pulling a shot of their coffee, hearing it pronounced by them as balanced, but tasting it and finding it was disgusting ....before I knew for sure it wasn't a lack of skill on my part, merely different tastes to the roasters.


hulk versus the thing?


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## MWJB

If you want to find people who do not like coffee & find it disgusting, just pop by your local coffee forum...it's bizarre.










I don't like aubergines, perhaps I'll find an aubergine forum on which to express myself?

Lager can be dark, in fact it was dark for most of its history, until 1852 when a brewery in Plzen started making a golden coloured lager...and almost everyone followed suit. There are lagered stouts too. Beer malt vs coffee roast isn't really comparable.


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## Spazbarista

I like coffee. But curiously enough, I only like the coffee I like and I don't like the coffee I don't like.


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## MWJB

Don't we all.


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## coffeechap

MWJB said:


> Don't we all.


Apparently, but let's debate that for a few pages !!!


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## Mrboots2u

Rather discuss hulk v thing


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## Spazbarista

Which was kind of my point.

Its pointless.


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## The Systemic Kid

Weather's unseasonally warm at the moment.


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## coffeechap

The Systemic Kid said:


> Weather's unseasonally warm at the moment.


Not in Italy....


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## Mrboots2u

Hmm Lancaster beens warm today

......


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## Neill

Warm in Coleraine but heavy fog mins out the road to the coast.


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## The Systemic Kid

'mins out the road'? Is that local vernacular?


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## Mrboots2u

The Systemic Kid said:


> 'mins out the road'? Is that local vernacular?


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## Neill

The Systemic Kid said:


> 'mins out the road'? Is that local vernacular?


Ha, how about- we drove for a number of minutes along the road towards the coast and we found ourselves to be surrounded by the most dreadful dense fog.


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## Neill

Mrboots2u said:


>


Ha ha, it's funny cos it's true.


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## DavecUK

> Originally Posted by *ShortShots*
> 
> cup tasting competitor/champion, lighter roasts will always showcase the unique factors of the terroir more so than darker roasts, so I see where he's coming from.





garydyke1 said:


> SCAA guidelines:
> 
> Roasting
> 
> The sample should be roasted within 24 hours of cupping and allowed to rest for at least 8 hours.
> 
> Roast profile should be a light to light-medium roast, measured via the M- Basic (Gourmet) Agtron scale of approximately 58 on whole bean and 63 on ground, +/- 1 point (55-60 on the standard scale or Agtron/SCAA Roast tile #55).
> 
> The roast should be completed in no less than 8 minutes and no more than 12 minutes. Scorching or tipping should not be apparent.


Ah the SCAA on roasting....well enuff said.


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## jeebsy

I came back from 5-2 down at tennis tonight to win 7-5.


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## welshrarebit

Sweating like mrboots in a latte contest =/


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## hotmetal

I also hate aubergines. If someone wants to set up a forum so we can bitch about them (and courgettes, they're rubbish and all,) I'll join!

I like dark roast in an Espresso, a bit lighter in a Cappuccino. To be quite honest, no troll, I really was beginning to think it was a sign of my lack of knowledge and/or ability to use my Classic! I think I should probably stop worrying and drink more!


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## jeebsy

Aubergines are in the top 3 vegetables ever


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## garydyke1

Do you really need a VST basket for an aubergine, its not like they are hard to extract is it?


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## jeebsy

Can be slightly bitter sometimes, best use an ims. Suit a dark roast but also nice with a hint of lemon


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## Spazbarista

jeebsy said:


> Aubergines are in the top 3 vegetables ever


Yeah but it depends on the chef.

Only a good chef can get the best out of them


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## garydyke1

Spazbarista said:


> Yeah but it depends on the chef.
> 
> Only a good chef can get the best out of them


Char-grill the aubergines , Slather them in high grade olive oil, lemon juice, chopped mint and parsley..crumble of feta..onto toasted fresh sourdough.


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## Milanski

I'm enjoying this thread


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## jeebsy

garydyke1 said:


> Char-grill the aubergines , Slather them in high grade olive oil, lemon juice, chopped mint and parsley..crumble of feta..onto toasted fresh sourdough.


Parmagiane for me


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## ShortShots

garydyke1 said:


> Char-grill the aubergines , Slather them in high grade olive oil, lemon juice, chopped mint and parsley..crumble of feta..onto toasted fresh sourdough.


drooooooooool


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## garydyke1

jeebsy said:


> Parmagiane for me


Ah another excellent choice, perhaps some fresh marjoram or oregano in that instance?

Hungry now


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## coffeechap

garydyke1 said:


> Char-grill the aubergines , Slather them in high grade olive oil, lemon juice, chopped mint and parsley..crumble of feta..onto toasted fresh sourdough.


Knew there was something I need to bring back from italy ! Wonderful olive oil!


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## garydyke1

coffeechap said:


> Knew there was something I needs to bring back from italy ! Wonderful olive oil!


Jealous . We try and bring some back everytime we have a holiday there & wine!


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## jeebsy

90+ olive oil?


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## garydyke1

We visited some farms in Tuscany, the oil olive was off the chart. One place we visited we side-by-side tasted 3 different oils .....they only made enough of their best pressing for familiy and friends, gave it away to them for free - man that stuff was so so sweet and flavourful. The next pressing/grade was for sale for visitors/tourists at 15 euros for 125ml & that was better than 99.9% of whats on UK shelves, bright green , fresh , aromatic and savoury.

The stuff we get here is mainly pants : (


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## Xpenno

coffeechap said:


> Knew there was something I need to bring back from italy ! Wonderful olive oil!


+1 And the balsamic is to die for!


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## jeebsy

I've only splurged on one bottle of proper olive oil, was after reading giorgio locatelli' s book and he spends about ten pages going on about finding good oils and how to taste them properly. Think it was about 15 quid for a tiny bottle but it was so good. Tasted like grass, but in a positive way


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## coffeechap

Ooooo I can get the good stuff here


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## garydyke1

coffeechap said:


> Ooooo I can get the good stuff here


Perhaps a sideline for ya!


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## Devin Samson

Surprised they didn't offer a wheat grass coffee haha


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