# How to explain "Starbucks" to a novice



## bagpuss (Feb 6, 2015)

So, I got asked this by a friend this weekend, assuming I'd know the answer, being "into coffee" and all that. And I realised that I couldn't really give a straight answer. She simply asked "why is Starbucks so rubbish?".

She doesn't like their output, and is a fan of good coffee. I know what makes a good coffee, and could explain to her why good coffee is good, but not having been to Starbucks for so long, I don't really know why she wasn't liking it!

Is it just their beans? Or the making? What is it? I know that instinctively I don't like the whole corporate side of the operation, but in terms of what one gets in the cup, what's going on?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Their coffee is roasted to a cinder , this is so it will cut though bucket sized milk drinks ( which give the public perception of value )

Any real taste is lost on the plethora of syrups one can have ( which attempt to fool people into thinking its a personalised drink )

And they dont pay tax


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

Their model is all about extracting maximum revenue from a simple, cheap and repeatable process.

Not much good can come from that with coffee.

Oddly, the best coffee they do (yes I know that means little) is the filter, the cheapest one


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Their coffee tastes like sh*te, and ashy sh*te at that


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Passionless and socially agnostic.

A congruent business selling lots of whatever people will buy without questioning value. It has no intent to do anything other than make profit. There's no quality in their product, no intent to hire, develop and retain talented people, no sincere partnership with the people that grow coffee, no participation in local communities or payment of domestic tax.

It's a cynical conspiracy or marketeers and accountants.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

In the 90s, Starbucks moved things forward coffee-wise but things have moved on with the arrival of third wave coffee shops whose key is they are independently owned and offer freshly roasted beans. Suggest your mate takes a visit to one - better still go with them.


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## frandavi99 (Jun 8, 2014)

I enjoyed Starbucks filter coffee for a long time before I got into "good" coffee. I think they introduced a lot of the world to cafes and coffee, but they are too big and focus on quantity not quality. They were a step up from a time most people just drank instant coffee, but as people say, third wave coffee has left them a long way behind.

I'm sure many use preground coffee to speed up the process and I've never seen a barista pay any attention to the quality of what pours out. But who cares when people are drinking it in a litre of milk with sugar and flavoured syrup?!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

In its day, Starbucks moved the bar higher for which it deserves credit - but things have moved on and Starbucks hasn't.


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

I echo the last two comments (TSK and frandavi99)

The best thing that Starbucks managed to do was to raise the bar in terms of expectation.

How many people on this forum were drinking a fair percentage of instant coffee 20 years ago. Starbucks and the other chains provided a first taste of what else was out there. It was similar to companies like Wine Rack in the wine industry. Yes they were pushing 1000s of cases of Jacobs Creek, but it was a step up from liebfraumilch and the rest of that back-blended euro-winelake muck.

For many, they are happy to continue to buy their coffee from the chains, and probably grab their sandwich from Pret a Manger. For others, it opened their eyes to the potential quality that could be accessible, even within the home environment.

Yes they don't pay the tax that they morally should, yes their coffee is not particularly good, and yes they don't look after their staff that well.

Doesn't mean that they weren't important in the evolution of consumer coffee


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## juwelkeeper (Feb 17, 2015)

What about Costa would you put them in the same boat as Starbucks, ive never had a drink in Starbucks so cant compare, but i have been into a Costa and they dont seem to bad .


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Think I'm correct in saying Costa don't avoid paying taxes like $tarbucks?


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Starbucks et all are an unfortunate necessary evil in the specialty coffee world. Without them, we'd not have such a thriving scene right now.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Scotford said:


> Starbucks et all are an unfortunate necessary evil in the specialty coffee world. Without them, we'd not have such a thriving scene right now.


I like their Chai Tea latté (for some reason I keep calling it a Tai Chi Latté)


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Rhys said:


> I like their Chai Tea latté (for some reason I keep calling it a Tai Chi Latté)


Martial art latte then!


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## StuartS (Jan 2, 2015)

All i notice now is the poor standards of cleanliness in these high street chains. Grinding straight into dirty portafilters, machines are manky, steam wands and pitchers are covered in dried milk.

They use good equipment but in no way can the staff be called baristas - its all about speed and nothing else matters.

They never take care with the dose, they tamp all wonky onto a mound/peak in the portafilter so the extraction must be poor. Milks drinks are weak, even if the beans are meant to cut through milk, they don't.

Everything about the coffee is poor. God knows what an espresso tastes like. These places are just convenient social meeting places (and this what people pay for) but if you want a nice drink go elsewhere.


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

StuartS said:


> All i notice now is the poor standards of cleanliness in these high street chains. Grinding straight into dirty portafilters, machines are manky, steam wands and pitchers are covered in dried milk.
> 
> They use good equipment but in no way can the staff be called baristas - its all about speed and nothing else matters.
> 
> ...


Spot on!

I will give Starbucks one thing, they are so process driven and automated that they are pretty consistent. Granted that is consistently poor.

Costa on the other hand is all manual, which can sometimes result in a splendid drink, but more often this results in nastiness!


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

DoubleShot said:


> Martial art latte then!


Aye, lol. that and I started doing Chen Tai Chi a while ago. Haven't done it in a while as the chap who was teaching me turned out to be a druggie.


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## samjfranklin (Jan 1, 2015)

I would go as far to say that I think costa is the best of the high-street chains. They, however, are still not a scratch on the surface of some of the third wave coffee shops around. Starbucks automate a lot of drink production with, I believe, some machines having auto shutoffs at a given temperature. Besides this machine automation, they just don't put any care into production as some of the others say it's just an automated process for them. And their coffee is roasted to ash.


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## big dan (Apr 11, 2012)

I always tell people the same thing when they ask why Starbucks is so bad:

"Order an espresso, then we can talk"

Most people associate espresso as being bitter but Starbucks espresso tastes like tar and is in a whole new level of rankness!

Also there is a great little bit in Scott Rao's The Professional Barista's Handbook that is a fictional story about italian vs amercian styles of coffee but is a thinly veiled commentary on Starbucks. Check it out!


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## Flibster (Aug 15, 2010)

I used this analogy to a car geek recently.

A proper espresso is like an Aston Martin, hand crafted and exquisite.

Starbucks espresso is like a Hyundai. Punched out quickly and cheaply just to make money.

He actually drives an vintage Aston at the moment so I appealed to his sense of taste.


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## BeanThereDoneThat (Apr 20, 2015)

I think its the faint taste of oppression and tax avoidance that sours it a-little....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

BeanThereDoneThat said:


> I think its the faint taste of oppression and tax avoidance that sours it a-little....


along with a very faint taste of coffee


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## bagpuss (Feb 6, 2015)

I should have known that my question would open a can of worms ;-)

So, most of what I assumed would be the case: mass production, cost over quality, profit over performance, etc.

I didn't know about the whole roasted to an ash thing. Maybe I should go check it out again. Maybe order and espresso!

I get the difference between the business models/products of $tarbucks and a good third wave, and it's interesting to read about specifics that influence the outcome. After all, I'm left thinking (often!) when I get coffee out and about, that I could produce a better coffee with their many thousands of pounds worth of equipment, because I can see easily identifiable "faults" in what their doing. Because I've read around enough on forums like this!

This is partly why it's baffled me. All that investment in kit, shop fit outs, rent, etc., and yet the person making the coffee could change a couple of actions, for no extra cost, and produce a better product. Why on earth wouldn't they??!!

But not everyone's like us. ;-)


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Like or loathe Starbucks, the company has, due to its almost obsessive business model, led to significant developments. One area, often overlooked, has been on the technical side, i.e. espresso machine design and innovation. The company's drive here has been to demand espresso machines (the espresso Holy Grail?) that largely rule out human error - or is that barista expertise/skill?? This has had a knock on effect in the industry and required espresso machine manufacturers to raise their game and produce ever more complex machines that can get the very best out of the bean - consistently - and automatically too.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Last poll we did of members ( while ago ) 40 percent drank espresso milk based drinks , so not sure people would order an espresso in or out not Starbucks to test...


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

I've seen good, organised and clean baristas in coffee chains like Starbucks, as well as dreadful ones.

They are all somewhat hamstrung by the quality of the raw ingredient.

What's the saying...?

You can't polish a turd


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

The chains are essentially property companies that own cafes. They do the things they do to the consistently bad standards so that even the most monumental ****up won't make their product any worse.

The equipment they use is top notch so they can churn out whatever they need to at any standard they choose IE: a bad one. Consistently.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Following is worth a read.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-company-behind-starbucks-espresso-2014-8?IR=T


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