# What exactly makes a good 'spresso?



## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

I have been 'into' coffee for barely five months now, during which time a lot of water has flowed under my particular bridge, as it were. I started out with a cheapo Cookworks from Argos, very soon upgraded to a S/H Gaggia New Baby with Silvio wand, then leapt up to my 'dream machine', a QM Verona. Grinder-wise, it's DeLonghi to Iberital to SJ to Royal, all in the same timescale. Nick-nacks have gone from nothing to milk thermometers (essential for me as my delicate little fingers can't take the jug temperature), open PF, VST baskets, scales (various), timers (various), Click-mat, tamp stand, Pergtamp, 0.5mm gliceur, several milk jugs, etc. etc. etc. And a Brita 1200 filter soon to be plumbed in. Bottled water is used for the time being.

Well and truly hooked, I'd say.

The 'spresso I drink is invariably latte (flat-white?) as I'm not really keen on straight shots - even the high-end Godlike stuff made at May's Rave Rave.

As I seem to have taken to running before I even learned to walk, I'm not sure how to determine what's a good shot and what isn't. That's where I'm looking for a bit of guidance. In order to make a 'spresso, I merely dial in the grind such that a 27sec 'pull' gives 1:2 in the cup. So 15g in 15g VST gives 30g, 18 in 18 VST = 36g and so on, all in 27secs. Tamp is consistent at 30lb (clickmat sees to that). I've never really deviated from that rule of thumb. I then go on to add stretched milk of course, to make my much enjoyed lattes.

I'm not quite sure what I'm asking here, but I'm certain there's much more to it than that. Oh, and when taste notes talk about wild strawberries, goosegogs, lemons, limes, chocolate malt or whatever, I frown and nod sagely, but in actual fact, I can't really detect any of it. Don't get me wrong, I love the whole coffee thing to bits, but coffee tastes to me like, well, coffee! Some nicer than others but descriptive words elude me, so I'm never quite sure just what I've done to get a particularly nice tasting cup. Maybe my palate was just right for the moment... I don't know. But I doggedly follow my 1:2 in 27secs target.

I guess what I am asking is for some kind of guidance on what I could do to broaden my experience... but I wouldn't have a clue on how or where to start. By the way, I've no wish to branch out into brew methods other than 'spresso. I enjoyed Patrick's most capable and fascinating presentations at Rave, but they're not for me. I'll stick with the Verona and hopefully, broaden the kicks I get from that.

Does this make sense, anyone, or even sound familiar with some of your own deep-down feelings?

Tony.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

1:2 is one recipe only , not everyone likes spro at this recipe, ( or with your water ) not all beans will taste good at this recipe.

Plus is just numbers to guide taste and adjust . It's just a guide, as is 27 seconds.. .if you don't like the spro , change the recipe and or the beans...

Being dogmatic about a recipe and time and getting results you don't like...well change em, you might find something you do....

Perhaps you just don't like black coffee ( not liking brewed may be an indicator of this )


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

When you talk about the tasting notes, are these the notes for the beans when made in a milk based drink? If you add milk these tastes will change. Some flavours may power through the milk but many will change or be lost entirely.

Off topic... 'spresso? This is really confusing me. It's not even making it shorter?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Spro....spro man...

Yeah milk will kill alot of the subtler flavour's..

What beans are you using teejay


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

teejay41 said:


> Oh, and when taste notes talk about wild strawberries, goosegogs, lemons, limes, chocolate malt or whatever, I frown and nod sagely, but in actual fact, I can't really detect any of it.


You wont in milk. Unless you have a crazy funky natural which punches through.

You need to be drinking lots of well brew coffee to start to pick up the flavour differences. Highly recommend a cupping with 5-6 coffees from different origins. I suggest cupping because you cant screw the extraction up.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

garydyke1 said:


> You wont in milk. Unless you have a crazy funky natural which punches through.
> 
> You need to be drinking lots of well brew coffee to start to pick up the flavour differences. Highly recommend a cupping with 5-6 coffees from different origins. I suggest cupping because you cant screw the extraction up.


Sorry to be naive, but what's a 'cupping'? And how come it can't screw the extraction?

Tony.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

teejay41 said:


> Sorry to be naive, but what's a 'cupping'? And how come it can't screw the extraction?
> 
> Tony.


Its as simple as putting 12g of each coffee, coarsely ground, into 200ml bowl/cups, pouring just off the boil water on top, leaving it 4 mins, breaking the 'crust', cleaning any floating grounds off, then tasting the brew off a spoon, slurping it across the palate.

You get an even extraction , so each coffee has a chance to taste just as clear and sweet as the next. Theres nothing to screw up.

Doing the same via espresso would be a huge ball-ache, you'd be there all day


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

have a look at  *this*


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Spro....spro man...
> 
> Yeah milk will kill alot of the subtler flavour's..
> 
> What beans are you using teejay


Beans started with Rave Sig, then (not in order) Italian Job, Finca El Bosque, another Rave SO - can't remember exactly which -, BB Milk Buster, Indonesia Sumatra, Brasil Santa Lucia Natural, York Coffee Emporium Heavy French Roast (on the go at the mo) and a couple of SOs from Foundry that I haven't tried yet. I like Rave's IJ as well as any. The French Roast is a bit bitter, but fine with milk.

It's 'spro from now on then, although 'spresso does save a syllable when pronouncing, and as it doesn't start with a vowel, saves an 'n' from a preceding indefinite article!

Welsh Countdown: "I'll have a consonant please, and another consonant... a consonant, oh and I think I'll have a consonant, and um, er... a consonant. And I'll finish, I think... with er, a consonant."

Tony.


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

I'd recommend trying each new bean as an espresso and adjusting the extraction to the point where you like it most. Then start throwing it in milk. A bad shot can be masked by the milk so you might be thinking that if you're doing everything right you're getting the maximum out of that particular bean but in reality you are not. As mrboots said, the 1:2 is just a guideline. So let's say you buy a bag of new beans that you haven't tried before. Adjust your grinder to extract at 1:2. If you find the resulting espresso unpleasant try grind finer/coarser or pulling shorter/longer, depending on what you don't like.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Its as simple as putting 12g of each coffee, coarsely ground, into 200ml bowl/cups, pouring just off the boil water on top, leaving it 4 mins, breaking the 'crust', cleaning any floating grounds off, then tasting the brew off a spoon, slurping it across the palate.
> 
> You get an even extraction , so each coffee has a chance to taste just as clear and sweet as the next. Theres nothing to screw up.


I've tried cupping maybe half a dozen times and never get a crust, is it key?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> I've tried cupping maybe half a dozen times and never get a crust, is it key?


No.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

MWJB said:


> No.


Good, was beginning to think that I was managing to screw up the un-screw-uppable extraction method


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I've only tried cupping a couple of times, I've poured the water on the grounds grinds. doh!

So....water in first,

grinds on top,

Leave for 4 mins (without pushing grinds down?)

Break through crust with spoon and taste.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Coffee in first.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Break through crust and sniff. Stir to get grinds to sink. Use a couple of spoons to clear scum off surface. Cup,is then ready for tasting.


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## Jedi oh (Mar 17, 2015)

Think I need to give this a go.

i bet even I can screw this up.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I've only tried cupping a couple of times, I've poured the water on the grounds grinds. doh!
> 
> So....water in first,
> 
> ...


Thats right, coffee first, then water.

If there isn't a crust the coffee is likely stale, too big a bowl for the amount of coffee, or, the grind not right size


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

Preference on grind size for cupping? Last time I cupped it seemed under, that was at coarsest setting on ek as had never used it for cupping before.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

funinacup said:


> Preference on grind size for cupping? Last time I cupped it seemed under, that was at coarsest setting on ek as had never used it for cupping before.


I would aim for half-way round the dial with the EK


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

garydyke1 said:


> I would aim for half-way round the dial with the EK


Where would you suggest with a Mazzer (SJ or Royal) relative to 'zero' (empty burrs bite-point)?

Tony.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

teejay41 said:


> Where would you suggest with a Mazzer (SJ or Royal) relative to 'zero' (empty burrs bite-point)?
> 
> Tony.


Not an ideal grinder but perhaps 75 degree turn coarser. Whatever would be suitable for French press press


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Thats right, coffee first, then water.
> 
> If there isn't a crust the coffee is likely stale, too big a bowl for the amount of coffee, or, the grind not right size


As in 11 out of 22 on the EK or dial in the six o'clock position?


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

I've so far always done it as in 11/22 (or whatever that is on the classic dial)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Thats right, coffee first, then water.
> 
> If there isn't a crust the coffee is likely stale, too big a bowl for the amount of coffee, or, the grind not right size


Or, you're using a finer grind & leaving the cup for more than 4 minutes (less aggressive water might need finer/longer, even covering the cup). Finer grinds get waterlogged & sink quicker. Crust is usually (assuming freshly roasted coffee) down to grind size (coarser = more) and, as Gary says, dose vs surface area of the cup.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jeebsy said:


> As in 11 out of 22 on the EK or dial in the six o'clock position?


11 good place to start


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I've got a cupping cup, 12g/200ml, tried 11 last time with that week's IMM and didn't get a crust.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> I've got a cupping cup, 12g/200ml, tried 11 last time with that week's IMM and didn't get a crust.


Just to check you're not thinking pie crust...are you?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> I've got a cupping cup, 12g/200ml, tried 11 last time with that week's IMM and didn't get a crust.


Crust is formed by CO2 released mixing with the grinds and causing some to float on surface. As beans age, there's less CO2 so less foaming.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

jlarkin said:


> Just to check you're not thinking pie crust...are you?


More pizza


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Crust is formed by CO2 released mixing with the grinds and causing some to float on surface. As beans age, there's less CO2 so less foaming.


I'll try tonight with Saturday's IMM


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Crust is formed by CO2 released mixing with the grinds and causing some to float on surface. As beans age, there's less CO2 so less foaming.


Also less as you grind finer, even when reasonably freshly roasted.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jeebsy said:


> I'll try tonight with Saturday's IMM


Best to try 2 or 3 coffees next to each other


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I'm just chasing dat crust bro


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