# Filtering water? Jug filter - Alternatives??



## RobDGio

Hi there,

fairly new member to the forums but have been doing lots of reading up on multiple topics. Really appreciative of all the information everyone had provided

definitely wanting to get into espresso and pretty much sold on the lelit Elizabeth. (Planning on getting the bundle deal through Bella barista and pairing with a eureka mignon facile). My main query is whether or not using a jug filter will be adequate for removing enough magnesium/calcium to minimise risk of scaling. I already use a jug filter for pour over etc

I've seen people talk about osmio zero but probably can't stretch to buy one too, at least not now and counter space is limited so probably not an option any time soon.

I know lelit do there own in tank filters but wondered what people's thoughts were on best options for filtering water and whether these and/or jug filters are adequate

also seen people talk about ashbeck bottled water and would be happy to go down this route.

not sure about anything plumbed in, as seems like there could be high running costs (not looked into this so please correct me if wrong)

I live in Gateshead, Tyne and Wear and believe it is relatively soft water (not measured this but local water mains reports suggest so) but want to make sure I'm doing what I can to keep an espresso machine healthy

thank you in advance for any advice and help


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## Rob1

With the information you have provided it is impossible to provide you with an answer. You will need to get a detailed water report and also test the water coming from the jug....or just test the water coming from the jug with a KH/GH drop kit.


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## RobDGio

Thanks for the reply.
Sorry, should have realised this would have been the most appropriate information to provide. I actually have access to pool water testing equipment (hydrotherapy pool) so will take a sample of my filtered water to test. What particular readings are needed, assuming calcium hardness and TDS? Any others? Thanks


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## Rob1

GH/KH

General Hardness and Alkalinity.

Also the operating temperature of your machine.


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## Ilias

In my area (London) the water hardness is 250ppm. Brita filter brings it down to ~170ppm.

That is why I ordered an Osmio.


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## ETX1

Watching this post with interest as also after an Elizabeth and have the same concerns regarding the water.

I live not far from yourself in North Tyneside and a few weeks ago descaled my electric kettle which came up like new, two weeks later and it is full of scale again.


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## RobDGio

Oh really. Maybe the water is not as soft as I had thought. As I say I will test the water on Wednesday when back at works hydro pool. Think I can test for alkalinity and calcium hardness, not sure about general hardness with the work equipment but bought some gh/kh strips which I'll use for that. I'll post my results here ASAP


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## DavecUK

In that area the water company describes the water as slightly hard...then unhelpfully, doesn't tell you what that means. Severn water describes their water against the following scale.









Personally, I think it will scale a coffee machine reasonable rapidly...and that's only the calcium Carbonate, the magnesium sulphate is unhelpfully not even mentioned!


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## CoffeePhilE

By that chart, my water is "slightly hard" on CaCO3 at 122 mg/l, but the Clarke degrees (21.35) and the total hardness is (305 mg/l), which is "very hard".

Oh, joy.


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## RobDGio

So I did a gh/kh test on water post jug filter

gh looks like between 30 and 60 on the colour chart

kh seems to be between 0 and 40

Assuming I put filtered water into the Machine with lelit in line filter does seem like reasonable precautions to minimise scaling or am I likely to need to do something additional?

many thanks

ps I will still do a proper test with a photometer(?) tomorrow using pool water testing tablets etc


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## 28267

@CoffeePhilE - is 122 your hardness in mg/l as Calcium? Different water companies use different units to measure hardness, Yorkshire Water use mg/l as Calcium, whereas the example @DavecUK gave from Severn Trent was in CaCO3 mg/l instead. The conversation to CaCO3 mg/l is x2.5, so the numbers match.

Some water companies also give a more detailed report which covers other minerals as well, below is mine from Yorkshire Water:









They normally have these under water hardness or water quality reports.


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## CoffeePhilE

Hmmm. Good spot, AdG. I missed that, just assuming when they said Calcium, they mean carbonate. But yeah, they say, in words not periodic table symbols, "Calcium". They also (as was pointed out above) mention that magnesium is another important factor in hardness, then ignore the hell out of it, not mentioning any level.

They say



> The hardness occurs naturally and is characterised by the presence of calcium and magnesium, which are good for healthy teeth and bones.
> 
> CALCIUM 122 mg/l
> 
> Calcium is the principle constiuent of hardness
> 
> TOTAL HARDNESS 305 MG/L
> 
> Total hardness is usually expressed in terms of calcium carbonateand is measured in terms of milligrammes per litre (mg/l) which is the same as parts per million (ppm).The recognised classification scheme we are using is 0-75 soft, 76-150 moderately hard, 151-300 hard, 300+ very hard. Your water is very hard.


 I think it's easy to see how I (or most people) could misinterpret that, as they talk about one thing then measure something different, without pointing it out. This was Affinity Water, by the way. Thanks for the confusion, Affinity.

Thanks for pointing out the goof, AdG. Now, those apparently conflicting measurements make sense.


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## 28267

@CoffeePhilE - yep they seem to like mixing measurements in Clarks (probably English), Calcium Carbonate and calcium levels to keep everyone confused.

I remembered the confusion from setting up water softeners where I used to live, think we were around 450 there, so avoided using for coffee machine.

And as you mentioned water companies only ever seem to consider calcium for hardness, never the magnesium levels. It looks like Yorkshire & Anglian water who's reports I've used are unusual that they quote it.

I didn't mention my numbers don't make sense as above that table it tells me my hardness is 31 mg/l as Calcium which doesn't line up with the table! Guess it might be different measurement dates?


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## CoffeePhilE

Yeah, they give "Degrees - English (Clarkes) of 21.35, but also Degrees German (17.08) and Degrees French (30.5). Then, Millimols, and finish off with Fluorine of 0.15 mg/l.

I would have thought different measurement dates out to show pretty nominal differences, though. Otherwise .... what's the point?


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## RobDGio

Hello again

thanks for the input so far on this thread. 
so I tested my water post filtration with a Palintest kit and these were my readings

tds 138 (presume ppm)

total alkalinity 71

calcium hardness 33

I'm a bit confused as in the Palintest manual it says both of those readings are measured as CaCO3 in mg/l

either way, how do those readings look for water quality while using an espresso machine? 
I appreciate I'll likely need to descale routinely over a certain time frame but how frequently would it likely be needed with these readings or am I better off doing more to reduce my levels?

thank you for all the help so far

ps - you can probably tell I'm very much new to all of this so apologies if this is really obvious stuff


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## MWJB

RobDGio said:


> tds 138 (presume ppm)
> 
> total alkalinity 71
> 
> calcium hardness 33


 Mg/L and ppm are the same thing.

Looks like Oslo water, which as a great reputation & Tim Wendelboe claims to have never descaled the machines in his cafe.


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## Rob1

RobDGio said:


> Hello again
> 
> thanks for the input so far on this thread.
> so I tested my water post filtration with a Palintest kit and these were my readings
> 
> tds 138 (presume ppm)
> 
> total alkalinity 71
> 
> calcium hardness 33
> 
> I'm a bit confused as in the Palintest manual it says both of those readings are measured as CaCO3 in mg/l
> 
> either way, how do those readings look for water quality while using an espresso machine?
> I appreciate I'll likely need to descale routinely over a certain time frame but how frequently would it likely be needed with these readings or am I better off doing more to reduce my levels?
> 
> thank you for all the help so far
> 
> ps - you can probably tell I'm very much new to all of this so apologies if this is really obvious stuff


 Open the link in my signature, stick the numbers in the appropriate places and find out. I can't access it to do it for you right now...


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## Rob1

RobDGio said:


> Hi there,
> 
> fairly new member to the forums but have been doing lots of reading up on multiple topics. Really appreciative of all the information everyone had provided
> 
> definitely wanting to get into espresso and pretty much sold on the lelit Elizabeth. (Planning on getting the bundle deal through Bella barista and pairing with a eureka mignon facile). My main query is whether or not using a jug filter will be adequate for removing enough magnesium/calcium to minimise risk of scaling. I already use a jug filter for pour over etc
> 
> I've seen people talk about osmio zero but probably can't stretch to buy one too, at least not now and counter space is limited so probably not an option any time soon.
> 
> I know lelit do there own in tank filters but wondered what people's thoughts were on best options for filtering water and whether these and/or jug filters are adequate
> 
> also seen people talk about ashbeck bottled water and would be happy to go down this route.
> 
> not sure about anything plumbed in, as seems like there could be high running costs (not looked into this so please correct me if wrong)
> 
> I live in Gateshead, Tyne and Wear and believe it is relatively soft water (not measured this but local water mains reports suggest so) but want to make sure I'm doing what I can to keep an espresso machine healthy
> 
> thank you in advance for any advice and help


 I probably could have just saved you some time...

If you're getting the Elizabeth invest in good water treatment like the Osmio and remineralise only with sodium or potassium bicarbonates, or both, and avoid descaling altogether. The Elizabeth has a small service boiler that operates at high temperatures and you're better off with no hardness at all.


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## RobDGio

Rob1 said:


> I probably could have just saved you some time...
> 
> If you're getting the Elizabeth invest in good water treatment like the Osmio and remineralise only with sodium or potassium bicarbonates, or both, and avoid descaling altogether. The Elizabeth has a small service boiler that operates at high temperatures and you're better off with no hardness at all.


 I just don't think I can justify the osmio. Also wife had said that's it for counter space being used by coffee equipment


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## Nleng

I'm in the same boat as you, I got my Elizabeth delivered on Wednesday.

I'm currently using Ashbeck with the Lelit 35l filter (just to be safe). I also plan to follow the advise of emptying the steam boiler once a month as that seems the high risk area.

I can't really justify the cost of a distillation/RO system right now. But I think my current setup should pretty much eliminate any limescale buildup. 🤞


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## RobDGio

Nleng said:


> I'm in the same boat as you, I got my Elizabeth delivered on Wednesday.
> 
> I'm currently using Ashbeck with the Lelit 35l filter (just to be safe). I also plan to follow the advise of emptying the steam boiler once a month as that seems the high risk area.
> 
> I can't really justify the cost of a distillation/RO system right now. But I think my current setup should pretty much eliminate any limescale buildup. 🤞


 Yeah I'm filtering the water with an aqua optima jug as well as using the lelit in tank filter too.

 think I need to have another look at all the maintenance tips as wasn't aware of emptying the steam boiler regularly , so thank you for mentioning that


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## Rob1

Nleng said:


> I'm in the same boat as you, I got my Elizabeth delivered on Wednesday.
> 
> I'm currently using Ashbeck with the Lelit 35l filter (just to be safe). I also plan to follow the advise of emptying the steam boiler once a month as that seems the high risk area.
> 
> I can't really justify the cost of a distillation/RO system right now. But I think my current setup should pretty much eliminate any limescale buildup. 🤞


 I don't know why people go for Ashbeck so much. Ok it won't scale but other than that it's not ideal, alkalinity is low and it is quite high in chlorides. Even if you only make one drink a day with Ashbeck you'll probably need to be flushing the service boiler once every two weeks at least with only light use (if you run it at about 145c). I'd be concerned with the chlorides building up more than anything. Stress corrosion cracking has been seen in stainless and surgical steel even as low as 10ppm and without any buildup Ashbeck has 15ppm; the hotter you go and the more steam you use the worse it gets. *I might be being over the top *and it might take a very long time for you to see any problems if you ever see any at all from SCC but still...


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## Nleng

Rob1 said:


> I don't know why people go for Ashbeck so much. Ok it won't scale but other than that it's not ideal, alkalinity is low and it is quite high in chlorides. Even if you only make one drink a day with Ashbeck you'll probably need to be flushing the service boiler once every two weeks at least with only light use (if you run it at about 145c). I'd be concerned with the chlorides building up more than anything. Stress corrosion cracking has been seen in stainless and surgical steel even as low as 10ppm and without any buildup Ashbeck has 15ppm; the hotter you go and the more steam you use the worse it gets. *I might be being over the top *and it might take a very long time for you to see any problems if you ever see any at all from SCC but still...


 Thanks for the heads-up, I wasn't aware of SCC. I'm not sure if I'm learning more about water than coffee with this hobby! 😅

I understand it's not ideal, but bottled water is cheap, convenient and relatively low risk. Which is the best I can do without spending a few hundred pounds on a water treatment system (although I'll probably save up for one).

I'll get a test to check the ppm and PH after the water has run through the filter. Do you know how/if I can test specifically for Chlorides?


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## Rob1

Chlorides aren't removed by filters.


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## MWJB

Nleng said:


> Thanks for the heads-up, I wasn't aware of SCC. I'm not sure if I'm learning more about water than coffee with this hobby! 😅
> 
> I understand it's not ideal, but bottled water is cheap, convenient and relatively low risk. Which is the best I can do without spending a few hundred pounds on a water treatment system (although I'll probably save up for one).
> 
> I'll get a test to check the ppm and PH after the water has run through the filter. Do you know how/if I can test specifically for Chlorides?


 Zerowater jug & filters don't cost hundreds of pounds, you can re-mineralise by cutting it with tap water, using regular kitchen scales (no need for 1/100th,or milligram scales & concentrates.

You need to check the KH of your water as the very first step.


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## Nleng

MWJB said:


> Zerowater jug & filters don't cost hundreds of pounds, you can re-mineralise by cutting it with tap water, using regular kitchen scales (no need for 1/100th,or milligram scales & concentrates.
> 
> You need to check the KH of your water as the very first step.


 Thanks for the suggestion. I was considering Zero Water for treating my (hard) tap water. Although, I wasn't confident how long the filters would last.


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## jaffro

Nleng said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. I was considering Zero Water for treating my (hard) tap water. Although, I wasn't confident how long the filters would last.


 If it helps, I have brutally hard tap water and the filters last around 2 months a pop... Although the water sometimes starts to smell a bit funky towards the end, even if it hasn't reached the tds level they suggest you change the filter at. Think this is a common issue with these style filters, but not the end of the world!

That's for probably 2 espresso based drinks and 4 filter coffees a day (ish).


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## RobDGio

Just wanted to thank everyone for their input again. I have ended up ordering the osmio zero as just didn't feel confident that water filter jugs would suffice. After a kitchen reorganisation I have the space for it (and the all important approval of the wife). 
with the obvious need to replace filters, is there any other things I need to keep on top with the osmio?


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## Espressonic

RobDGio said:


> Hi there,
> 
> fairly new member to the forums but have been doing lots of reading up on multiple topics. Really appreciative of all the information everyone had provided
> 
> definitely wanting to get into espresso and pretty much sold on the lelit Elizabeth. (Planning on getting the bundle deal through Bella barista and pairing with a eureka mignon facile). My main query is whether or not using a jug filter will be adequate for removing enough magnesium/calcium to minimise risk of scaling. I already use a jug filter for pour over etc
> 
> I've seen people talk about osmio zero but probably can't stretch to buy one too, at least not now and counter space is limited so probably not an option any time soon.
> 
> I know lelit do there own in tank filters but wondered what people's thoughts were on best options for filtering water and whether these and/or jug filters are adequate
> 
> also seen people talk about ashbeck bottled water and would be happy to go down this route.
> 
> not sure about anything plumbed in, as seems like there could be high running costs (not looked into this so please correct me if wrong)
> 
> I live in Gateshead, Tyne and Wear and believe it is relatively soft water (not measured this but local water mains reports suggest so) but want to make sure I'm doing what I can to keep an espresso machine healthy
> 
> thank you in advance for any advice and help


 I'm getting a 5 stage reverse osmosis unit at the end of the month. £139.95 and it sits under the sink.


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