# First go with a bottomless



## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

To the untrained eye this shot doesn't look to bad?? didn't get any side streams etc

18g in 37g out with a 30-35 sec extraction time

smart grinder pro used on setting 6

Any feedback gratefully received!


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

The pour looks good but there is water running down the outside of the P/F. Either the group seal is hard or you have some coffee grounds stuck on it.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Looks good there, although a video would be a better way to asses it. As above, you've got a small leak there too.


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

that was my fault! lol didn't have the PF tightened up enough and then ran out of hands to wipe it before taking a few snaps


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

What was the taste like?


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## StuartS (Jan 2, 2015)

Bottomless PF has a few advantages not least of which is checking distribution technique so you can avoid channeling etc.

When I got my new machine, I couldn't get a naked PF for a while so used the double spout - after a few weeks I was sick of it dripping espresso and/or water all over the place. These are a real pain to clean and dry. Naked is much cleaner and easier to rinse out. Much better than a double spout, assuming you don't split your shots.

Anyway, it's all about taste but a naked forces you to improve distribution, ruling out (or reducing) uneven extraction as a factor.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jj-x-ray said:


> What was the taste like?


This is all that is important ....


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> This is all that is important ....


You want to have a word - he stole your catchphrase!!


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

jj-x-ray said:


> What was the taste like?


It was really good I thought but no doubt room for improvement, the Italian Job bean from Rave smells lush!


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

As for the pour itself, looks good with coffee flowing evenly from the basket's holes, if it tastes good then you're getting there without issues


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

I don't use my naked P/F as much as I should. My grinder is a Eureka Mignon which has a tendency to clump, so I stir the ground coffee in the P/F with a cocktail stick to ensure it is evenly distributed before tampering. Once I learned this technique I don't have problems with channeling and it is a nice even pour.


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

Since my group head clean I'm getting alot more channeling and have been covered in coffee a few times!  but as a flat whites go it tastes amazing! have ordered a 57.5 tamper to match the IMS basket to see if that improves things. Have been using a cocktail stick as mentioned above as well


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

cloughy said:


> Since my group head clean I'm getting alot more channeling and have been covered in coffee a few times!  but as a flat whites go it tastes amazing! have ordered a 57.5 tamper to match the IMS basket to see if that improves things. Have been using a cocktail stick as mentioned above as well


Hope the 5*7*.5 is a typo. Should be 58.etc


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## Chrissypee (Apr 17, 2018)

Looks good. Any tips on where to get a 58mm bottomless PF? Looking at amazon they are £30, seems steep.


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

Got mine for £25 on eBay, it's from edesa express, very good quality.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F282008175654


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

ashcroc said:


> Hope the 5*7*.5 is a typo. Should be 58.etc


Haha yeah 58.5


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## Sheena_Lance (Jan 24, 2018)

the pour looks good and if it tastes good then that's even better...


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## Benreade (Apr 28, 2018)

I tried a bottomless once ..... was like using blender without a lid 

I didn't persevere back then, blamed the filter and went back to spout.

I was using fresh whole beans (pact) with a burr grinder from Krupps, tamped with a solid metal tamper.

So in hindsight, am I right in assuming that the grinder was most probably not fine/even enough? Possibly distribution too, but I'm pretty sure I always aimed for an even pile pre grind.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I would say the bottomless portafilter is an essential tool in the journey to perfecting your technique. It's as important as scales, tampers etc..Moving to spouted portafilters, simply hides things. There are a few reasons why naked portafilters don't work well.

1. Bad technique, distribution, tamping, not weighing the grounds in, grind not set correctly

2. Old coffee

3. Damaged or inadequate grinder

4. Espresso machine Pressure not set correctly e.g. usually too high (vibe or rotary), or fault in preinfusion system (rotary E61 only), or even rotary machines with no preinfusion system.

So it's a really good tool to verify everything is OK and something all people new to these machines should be using.

P.S. It's also something all experienced users should go back to from time to time....just to check everything is still OK!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Also, one of the reasons I went back to it (when I had my machine that was) is because it's so easy to keep it clean, and, as said above, keep your technique in check!


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

I hardly ever use spouted. I don't even have a handle for the spouted head!  I reluctantly rig it up when guests ask for a coffee.


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

@DavecUK how would you feel about doing one of your excellent videos regarding the usage of a naked (no need to include your wand ). I remember you mentioning adjusting the grinder during one of the Niche reviews, in relation to extraction although obviously not in any great detail.

I expect many would be grateful if you could explain it in some depth. I appreciate your a busy chap, but it would make a great resource either on here or your youtube channel. I have searched the web, youtube, Vimeo etc for something along these lines but can't find anything other than shots of good looking pours (arnt they all!) but absolutely nothing that explains how to get there or what to adjust if you're not getting the desired results your after. So perhaps a run-through of those finer details that seem to be missing, such as those you alluded in your post #19 and anything else you deem to be relevant.

So how's about it? Are your poor old knees up to it and is it something that would interest you?


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Since I got naked I've never touched my spout again.......

Joking aside using the naked has led to massive improvements in my prep, which has in turn led to consistency in my shots (effectively taking a variable off the table to a greater extent). Although i could probably go back to spouts now, I think I would miss the ability to diagnose a bad shot and I certainly can't imagine dialing in a new bean without one.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

********** said:


> @DavecUK how would you feel about doing one of your excellent videos regarding the usage of a naked (no need to include your wand ). I remember you mentioning adjusting the grinder during one of the Niche reviews, in relation to extraction although obviously not in any great detail.
> 
> I expect many would be grateful if you could explain it in some depth. I appreciate your a busy chap, but it would make a great resource either on here or your youtube channel. I have searched the web, youtube, Vimeo etc for something along these lines but can't find anything other than shots of good looking pours (arnt they all!) but absolutely nothing that explains how to get there or what to adjust if you're not getting the desired results your after. So perhaps a run-through of those finer details that seem to be missing, such as those you alluded in your post #19 and anything else you deem to be relevant.
> 
> ...


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> ********** said:
> 
> 
> > @DavecUK how would you feel about doing one of your excellent videos regarding the usage of a naked (no need to include your wand ). I remember you mentioning adjusting the grinder during one of the Niche reviews, in relation to extraction although obviously not in any great detail.
> ...


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## Deeez Nuuutz (Apr 15, 2018)

Well i've had my DTP for a few weeks now and i've a had a naked PF for nearly 2 weeks and it's all I use now. Mainly due to it being easier to clean and I like to watch the flow as I find it very satisfiying for some strange reason...

I'm not too sure how to examine for technique though? What am I looking for exactly when using a naked PF?


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

Just turned my stock DTP pf into a naked one, and this is my first shot on it.. http://






Apart from being a bit course and so pouring a bit fast, it seemed to be ok, but that is clearly from an untrained eye!

It was 17g->49g in 35 secs, tasted a bit sour, so will tighten the grind a bit!

What do people think?


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## Apupapu (Jun 15, 2018)

+1 for Edesia Espress ltd.


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## laferret (Aug 22, 2010)

Sorry to hijack the post. I bought this for my Classic recently and while I'm agog with the spectacle and I think my coffee tastes better it doesn't half make a mess. Perhaps some pointers on why I get spitting from the underside even though for the most part it does look like the photo in this post - central - mouse tail good colour crema. I don't have a fancy press dedicated to the PF but try hard to get it even and clean in their. I also don't have a doser and use pre ground - carefully stored coffee.


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

laferret said:


> Sorry to hijack the post. I bought this for my Classic recently and while I'm agog with the spectacle and I think my coffee tastes better it doesn't half make a mess. Perhaps some pointers on why I get spitting from the underside even though for the most part it does look like the photo in this post - central - mouse tail good colour crema. I don't have a fancy press dedicated to the PF but try hard to get it even and clean in their. I also don't have a doser and use pre ground - carefully stored coffee.


You're going to struggle with consistency using ground. That aside good distribution in the pf and a consistent tamping technique will improve things. I use a cocktail stick for example to break up lumps in the pf before then using a distribution tool and then tamp.


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

What cloughy said.

you need consistent yet adjustable grind and a decent prep routine (distribution, leveling, tamping etc) to rid yourself of spurters


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## laferret (Aug 22, 2010)

Perhaps I should have been more specific - I use a local shop to grind beans for an espresso machine rather than buying off the shelf caffetiere (sp) ground coffee which is what my original statement suggested. Their machine does a grand job of making it fine enough, I know it will suffer in terms of freshness but I'm climbing the ladder one rung at a time.

Would I be wise to buy a correct size tamper? I also finally know what the flat plastic blade on the other end of my coffee spoon is for. Thanks for that!


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

laferret said:


> Perhaps I should have been more specific - I use a local shop to grind beans for an espresso machine rather than buying off the shelf caffetiere (sp) ground coffee which is what my original statement suggested. Their machine does a grand job of making it fine enough, I know it will suffer in terms of freshness but I'm climbing the ladder one rung at a time.
> 
> Would I be wise to buy a correct size tamper? I also finally know what the flat plastic blade on the other end of my coffee spoon is for. Thanks for that!


Yes that will help, correct size tamper for the basket will reduce channeling


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

I just made my first shot with a bottomless PF. All went well - nice pour with no spritzing. Not a huge difference in taste because I clean my equipment frequently, but it really makes cleaning the top and the bottom of the basket simple for every shot. Well worth doing. I used a 44mm hole saw to make the hole, and the twin pourer on the bottom to centre the bit, held in a vice. An ordinary hand drill does the job at low revs with enough lube. Doesn't take long to drill brass.

So..... happy with this! It was very easy and I should have done it sooner.


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## andyt2 (Jul 16, 2018)

Why is a bottomless basket better? Is it because you have to tamp more evenly?


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

andyt2 said:


> Why is a bottomless basket better? Is it because you have to tamp more evenly?


Makes it possible see if you've distributed/tamped properly plus it's good to watch!


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

andyt2 said:


> Why is a bottomless basket better? Is it because you have to tamp more evenly?


With a bottomless you can spot channeling instead of just guessing with a spouted portafilter.


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> With a bottomless you can spot channeling instead of just guessing with a spouted portafilter.


Yes - it helps to assess you technique. So watch some YT videos, read about prep and all that. In my case I tamp in 2 stages - half way (softer) and then all the way. And as everyone says - it's also about the grind, which should be nice and fluffy without clumps. What I found is the bigger the burrs the more even the grind, so I'm up to 83mm now - that's just my own observation. Anyway, there are plenty of trained baristas on YT and elsewhere who share their expertise. I just work by trial and error.

But the other good reason for bottomless is it keeps everything completely clean. No hidden build-up of stale matter in the PF bottom or spout. You can see the basket top and bottom and wipe it clean each time. That's worth it by itself.


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