# Best roast for an authentic italian espresso?



## lor (Feb 19, 2015)

Has anybody any suggestion for what type of roast to use to get an espresso similar to the one found in the italian bars? Is it better a dark or a medium roast? I know Arabica tents to be the one used, sometimes mixed with Robusta, but the choice is so wide that I'm feeling a bit lost. What beans would you recommend me to try?


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## Kman10 (Sep 3, 2014)

Silver oak black bag


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Roasters live Rave do a relatively dark roast for their Italian Job, but its light by Italian standards. As far as I understand Italian roast is very dark... Starbucks style


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## lor (Feb 19, 2015)

Thank you for your recommendation, I might have to try them both







I like the description of the Rave coffee, anybody knows what are the shipping charges for just a 250g packet or two, it won't tell me unless I sign up.


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## lor (Feb 19, 2015)

Also, how long would a bag last? I guess the coffee will go stale after some time.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

lor said:


> Also, how long would a bag last? I guess the coffee will go stale after some time.


I got a kilo of the Italianroast from Rave, for me from 7=8 days degassing I was about another 7 days until I really enjoyed it, might have been a little too dark for me and postage was only about £2.90, BTW 250g won't last long, get at least 500g


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## lor (Feb 19, 2015)

I think I probably go through at least half a kilo in a month. Do you reckon that, if I buy 1kg bag, it will still be fine after a month or even two?


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## cawfee (Oct 27, 2014)

just buy the kilo bag, works out better in the long run. order up some spare bags and decant 250g into each for ease of use and storage.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

I'm not expert I'm afraid, my bag was about a month and half old from roasting till finished, it was still good for me until then, I suppose it would depend on storage. I don't know if splitting the beans into an airtight container so they cannot de-gas would lengthen there usable date.


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## lor (Feb 19, 2015)

Thanks for the advice! I didn't think about splitting the kg into smaller airtight bags, sounds like a plan. I might get from Rave the Espresso Lover Taster Pack to start with, so I can get an idea of what I like best, and then move to the kilo bag.


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## cawfee (Oct 27, 2014)

i got given a bag of coffee from doppio coffee in kentish town at christmas, their verona blend, which was exceptional. roasted in italy and the bag i had was only 2 weeks past roasting so fairly fresh. was so dark it was amazing and each shot came with such a stupendous amount of crema it was insane. lovely coffee, picking some more up at the weekend when i'm in london in fact

link http://www.doppiocoffee.co.uk/shop/iac-verona-250g/


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## lor (Feb 19, 2015)

Awesome! I'll definitely keep an eye for it next time I'm around north London. Do you think the hard water in London might be a problem with this kind of beans? Better to use bottled water?


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## cawfee (Oct 27, 2014)

i only use bottled water - highland spring for the record - so can't comment on water hardness


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

lor said:


> Has anybody any suggestion for what type of roast to use to get an espresso similar to the one found in the italian bars? Is it better a dark or a medium roast? I know Arabica tents to be the one used, sometimes mixed with Robusta, but the choice is so wide that I'm feeling a bit lost. What beans would you recommend me to try?


Get some rubbish quality beans from 18 different countries, roast them so dark none of the flavour of the beans remains, then grossly over extract by running tiny doses.

Sorry to be facetious.

JP


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jjprestidge said:


> Get some rubbish quality beans from 18 different countries, roast them so dark none of the flavour of the beans remains, then grossly over extract by running tiny doses.
> 
> Sorry to be facetious.
> 
> JP


What you talking about JJ?

[video=youtube;Qw9oX-kZ_9k]






What did my grand mother used to say

If you dont have anything nice to say then ......

Horses for courses , different tastes for different people , different strokes







not a massive fan of italian style espresso but doest mean it shouldn't have a place for others to enjoy


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> What you talking about JJ?
> 
> [video=youtube;Qw9oX-kZ_9k]


That's the old subjectivism versus objectivism argument. The flaw in subjectivism is that there are obviously good and bad things in the world - an analogy is discussing the merits of Liebfraumilch on a wine forum

As I said, I apologise for being facetious, and people can like what they like, but there is some objective measure of good and bad in coffee; I'm just trying to highlight it, albeit in a slightly arsey way.

JP


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The arsey way isnt always the way to get people to listen objectively....


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> The arsey way isnt always the way to get people to listen objectively....


Maybe. The fact is, though, that everything I wrote is true; with a few exceptions the beans are generally fairly low grade, the roasts are way too dark to allow the taste of the beans to come through, and over extraction is common. Italy presents its espresso as a quality product, but it is far more influenced by economic and conservative cultural factors than it is by a desire to produce truly great coffee. I guess I'd just like people to be aware of this.

JP


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

jjprestidge said:


> Get some rubbish quality beans from 18 different countries, roast them so dark none of the flavour of the beans remains, then grossly over extract by running tiny doses.
> 
> Sorry to be facetious.
> 
> JP


I enjoyed this facetious post.


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## lor (Feb 19, 2015)

jjprestidge said:


> Get some rubbish quality beans from 18 different countries, roast them so dark none of the flavour of the beans remains, then grossly over extract by running tiny doses.
> 
> Sorry to be facetious.
> 
> JP


Hmmmm, seems like a lot of effort, I doubt any Italian would go through so much hassle. That said, I'm off! I've got 18 countries to visit... see you all in April


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

lor said:


> Thank you for your recommendation, I might have to try them both
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you add it to your shopping trolley it should show you the postage charge once youve entered your details. No need to *check out* to do this



lor said:


> Also, how long would a bag last? I guess the coffee will go stale after some time.


Ive read on here that someone put half of their consignment in the freezer for storage and it actually tasted better than the first unfrozen lot they used.



lor said:


> Thanks for the advice! I didn't think about splitting the kg into smaller airtight bags, sounds like a plan.


This is what I intend to do. I have ordered 2.25 kilos so as to take advantage of the free posting and keep the overall cost down. I will be freezing some.


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## simonp (Nov 18, 2014)

Dylan said:


> Roasters live Rave do a relatively dark roast for their Italian Job, but its light by Italian standards. As far as I understand Italian roast is very dark... Starbucks style


That depends on where you go. In the North they tend to be medium dark with no oil, similar to Raave's Italian Job. Certainly most of what I have had there has fallen into that category.


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## lor (Feb 19, 2015)

simonp said:


> That depends on where you go. In the North they tend to be medium dark with no oil, similar to Raave's Italian Job. Certainly most of what I have had there has fallen into that category.


I've tried a medium/dark roast and I think that's what I'd like to go for. Like you said, that tends to be what I usually get in Italy, I don't like the beans to be almost charred, Starbucks style.


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## Vieux Clou (Oct 22, 2014)

jjprestidge said:


> Get some rubbish quality beans from 18 different countries, roast them so dark none of the flavour of the beans remains, then grossly over extract by running tiny doses.
> 
> Sorry to be facetious.
> 
> JP


Tain't necessarily wrong though. I'd imagine the economics are much like those here in France, where the stuff served in bars is the lowest of the low, often pure Robusta. I like the taste better in Italy, though.


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## mexier (Aug 21, 2014)

jjprestidge said:


> Maybe. The fact is, though, that everything I wrote is true; with a few exceptions the beans are generally fairly low grade, the roasts are way too dark to allow the taste of the beans to come through, and over extraction is common. Italy presents its espresso as a quality product, but it is far more influenced by economic and conservative cultural factors than it is by a desire to produce truly great coffee. I guess I'd just like people to be aware of this.
> 
> JP


Wow I laughed a lot, thanks. This is a cross between the fun and the frankly ridiculous









How many years did you live here ? Just to know who poisoned you for so long, and you could still make another attempt!



jjprestidge said:


> I guess I'd just like people to be aware of this.
> 
> JP


That's just what people haven't to be aware of instead. There are bars where you can have bad coffee for sure like in every part of the world, but most bars and quality roasters here produce a coffee incomparable, especially if u call coffee to the 30 ml (or more!) water mixed with coffee powder that you can drink in the rest of Europe.

Nothing personal with you or nationalism on my part, but please be serious, let's try to speak knowledgeably...


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

mexier said:


> Wow I laughed a lot, thanks. This is a cross between the fun and the frankly ridiculous
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Show me the last time an Italian won the World Barista Championship and I'll believe you (clue - it hasn't happened).

I'm not being nationalistic - I'm sure the current Italian Barista Champion will tell you the same.

JP


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Italian coffee culture is different. Not necessarily worse (although it is) but different. Euro on the counter, get your espresso, out the door again. If you like dark, roasty coffee then it's probably a dreamland but not my thing - http://sprudge.com/milan-italian-espresso-37223.html - http://sprudge.com/timeless-espresso-traditions-at-santeustachio-and-tazza-doro-in-rome-70170.html


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Italian coffee culture is different. Not necessarily worse (although it is) but different. Euro on the counter, get your espresso, out the door again. If you like dark, roasty coffee then it's probably a dreamland but not my thing - http://sprudge.com/milan-italian-espresso-37223.html - http://sprudge.com/timeless-espresso-traditions-at-santeustachio-and-tazza-doro-in-rome-70170.html


The thing to understand about Italian coffee is that it was never about quality - it was about producing a reasonable tasting coffee quickly. When coffee everywhere was terrible, Italian coffee was miles better than anything else; these days, however, it clings to the dogma of dark roasts, blends, oxidisation of coffee in the doser, etc when things have moved on elsewhere.

JP


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## mexier (Aug 21, 2014)

jjprestidge said:


> Show me the last time an Italian won the World Barista Championship and I'll believe you (clue - it hasn't happened).
> 
> I'm not being nationalistic - I'm sure the current Italian Barista Champion will tell you the same.
> 
> JP


So if the Jamaicans will be champions at bob this means that there will be ski resort everywhere in Jamaica and all jamaicans will be very good at this sport??? This is just useless academy...

The World Barista Championship can also come from Alaska, but you won't drink good coffee there implicitly or it won't be indicative of ancient traditions or attitude.

Here traditionally the coffee is ristretto, full-bodied, with an intense aftertaste and rarely macchiato (to don't cover the taste). You can like or not.

This is very different from burned or mixtures of poor quality origins you're referring.

Besides, if for coffee it's meant something very spicy or fruity, watery and that is between a juice and a real espresso, well perhaps a dunkin donut is the best choice. You can't find it here. It 's all a matter of taste and expectations (and culture I add), and ours are far different from yours imho.

You can prepare a coffee following all the rules recommended, with the most care and with super equipment but if in the end your espresso sucks ... where is the quality?


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

I remember many moons ago on this site I started a thread about how the coffee world was polarised into those who basically think the Italians got it right and those who didn't. Glad to see the argument is still running...

1) The Italians invented espresso. The Italians also devised and perfected the technology and their machines still dominate the coffee business. Give 'em their due. The Italian espresso is a legally defined and traditional product - like pizza in Naples - and they don't like people messing with it. This goes against the grain of the progessive, boundary-shifting 'third wave' approach. This can be seen as reactionary and nationalistic or a noble attempt to maintain traditional standards, just as third wave coffee can be seen as innovative and challenging or a desperate pandering to novelty-seeking hipsters.

2) I happen to like Italian espresso. You seldom get a bad espresso in Italy (you could argue that you seldom get a great one) - unlike the UK where, outside of the specialist shops, generally espresso is shit. There's just a lot more of it than there used to be.

3) There is an argument that Italian high roast exists to disguise poor coffee. This may have some historical legitimacy but it is about as relevant as to say curry was invented to disguise poor meat. I don't care - I love curry, I love espresso.

4) There is a rampant snobbery around 'third wave' roasters and the barista cult that promotes light roasts as being exciting/innovative/essential and dismisses traditional Italian roasts as being obsolete and only for those whose palates are undeveloped and tastes are unsophisticated. This is bollocks. It is worth noting that a whole industry has developed around lighter roasts which demands much more coffee per cup and much higher skill to get something decent out of it. This obviously benefits roasters if 20g rather than 7g a cup is being dispensed and coffee shops who they have cracked some 'difficult' bean that others fail to get a decent cup out of.

5) Of course the 'third wave' revolution has been great in many ways and it's good to see the surge of interest in coffee. However a lot of the Australian/New Zealand influnced coffee is based around the (to my mind) unedifying and unnecessary 'flat white'. Many love this drink but it bears very little relation to the Italian tradition except for the fact it usually comes (ironically and possibly recluctantly) out of an Italian made machine. I have had the worst espressos in my life from some well-respected third-wave coffee shops.

6) Yes there are a lot of cheap, crappy Italian style beans around that are roasted to soot and are quite disgusting. Despite what I've said above, I don't go for the very high roast (Union 'dark' is far too dark for me). There's a whole world between the very dark stuff and, say, HasBean beans many of which are not, in fact, roasted at all, merely dipped into a bath of beige dye.

7) OK, the last part of the last sentence was actually a lie, but sometimes HasBean's upbeat PR mechanisms have to be countered. Bless 'em.

8) To answer the OP question and to concur with others - Rave's Italian job is pretty damned good and great value for money if you like that sort of thing. A little rough around the edges (the funky robusta element), but that's all part of its charm.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

mexier said:


> So if the Jamaicans will be champions at bob this means that there will be ski resort everywhere in Jamaica and all jamaicans will be very good at this sport??? This is just useless academy...
> 
> The World Barista Championship can also come from Alaska, but you won't drink good coffee there implicitly or it won't be indicative of ancient traditions or attitude.
> 
> ...


I don't really understand your post; the World Barista Championship has its flaws, but it is an objective competition and is highly regarded in the industry (there is a very popular Italian barista championship that feeds into it, so your compatriots obviously don,t feel as you do).

Let's look at the typical Italian espresso - roasted to a level where little of the taste of the beans shine through, a blend of umpteen beans, often including Robusta varietals, not weighed out or in, ground beforehand and left to oxidise in tye doser, then pulled so short that it has little complexity.

Now, let's compare that with the best speciality coffee: single origin, often with beans from a single estate (like a decent wine), roasted so that there is sufficient development, but not so dark the roast overpowers the bean, ground to order, weighed in and out, and pulled longer for more complexity. Please tell me how this is like "Dunkin Donuts"; the Italian model is far nearer to this.

Of course, there is speciality coffee in Italy, but deeply conservative attitudes have slowed its growth compared to elsewhere (witness this conversation).

JP


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

RoloD said:


> I remember many moons ago on this site I started a thread about how the coffee world was polarised into those who basically think the Italians got it right and those who didn't. Glad to see the argument is still running...
> 
> 1) The Italians invented espresso. The Italians also devised and perfected the technology and their machines still dominate the coffee business. Give 'em their due. The Italian espresso is a legally defined and traditional product - like pizza in Naples - and they don't like people messing with it. This goes against the grain of the progessive, boundary-shifting 'third wave' approach. This can be seen as reactionary and nationalistic or a noble attempt to maintain traditional standards, just as third wave coffee can be seen as innovative and challenging or a desperate pandering to novelty-seeking hipsters.
> 
> ...


1) The UK invented many things. Football being one. Does that mean anything? (or are we not shit at football, just because we invented it?) Yours is a fallacious argument.

2) I'll give you that one.

3) Dark roasts do hide poor coffee. Most of the beans served in non speciality places in Italy wouldn't be good enough to season my burrs. The set price for an espresso served at the bar is partly responsible for this.

4) Nonsense. Lighter roasts highlight the flavour of the bean. What happens if you toast two pieces of bread, one a nice traditional hand baked white, the other a Tesco Value sliced, to the point that they are burnt? The answer is that the toastiness overpowers the flavour of the bread to the extent that they both taste identical. The same is true with coffee - roast it dark and all you get is the roasty flavour; the beans could be anything.

5) You're entitled to your opinion, but the flat white us just part of the menu. I'm more interested in non milk coffees, but the flat white is our most popular drink, and IMO is the optimum milk based coffee.

JP


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Some interesting and quite entertaining posts! 

Only 2 or 3 suggestions on beans though. Is it really that hard to find an authentic Italian espresso bean outside of Italy and available in the UK?


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

DoubleShot said:


> Some interesting and quite entertaining posts!
> 
> Only 2 or 3 suggestions on beans though. Is it really that hard to find an authentic Italian espresso bean outside of Italy and available in the UK?


Curator Cafe in Totnes use (and sell) beans wood roasted in Italy, if you want something genuinely Italian.

JP


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

There's Fazenda beside Liverpool St station too


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## mexier (Aug 21, 2014)

jjprestidge said:


> I don't really understand your post; the World Barista Championship has its flaws, but it is an objective competition and is highly regarded in the industry (there is a very popular Italian barista championship that feeds into it, so your compatriots obviously don,t feel as you do).
> 
> Let's look at the typical Italian espresso - roasted to a level where little of the taste of the beans shine through, a blend of umpteen beans, often including Robusta varietals, not weighed out or in, ground beforehand and left to oxidise in tye doser, then pulled so short that it has little complexity.
> 
> ...


As I told in a previous post...how long did u stay here to make a so comprehensive case study? One day maybe two? I doubt you ever stay or had a coffee here..

Who tell that beans roasted darker are worse tha lighter one? It's the taste profile we most like . It's not a lack of progress as you say but a choice. You can also find super light beans but very uncommon here.

It looks you belong to this category: "a rampant snobbery around 'third wave' roasters and the barista cult that promotes light roasts as being exciting/innovative/essential and dismisses traditional Italian roasts as being obsolete and only for those whose palates are undeveloped and tastes are unsophisticated" .

Well coffee is culture, is an art not an equation. It is not about doing homework at home and get the result. And that's the hardest part to understand for you 'cause it's not your culture. Italy is plenty of specialized coffee roasters, singol origins etc etc ...or do u think it's an UK prerogative? You can brag to develop what you want, but you just step from a tasty product - you can drink here - to something that is at best decent in the cup. Not a great step forward imho

It's useless to have so many beautiful mazzer for each coffee, a big robur well in sight and a thousand labels, use pulycaff every 30 min (I agree with All These) if your coffee cup then is disgusting or undrinkable. Oh, dunkin donuts? Not here really, as well as starbucks. No customers!

BTW this is an useless controversy. Go on with the snobbery and keep in mind the taste...just occasionally.

edit: as i told before, nothing against you...just too absurd concepts expressed together. Cheers


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

mexier said:


> As I told in a previous post...how long did u stay here to make a so comprehensive case study? One day maybe two? I doubt you ever stay or had a coffee here..
> 
> Who tell that beans roasted darker are worse tha lighter one? It's the taste profile we most like . It's not a lack of progress as you say but a choice. You can also find super light beans but very uncommon here.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure why you're taking this personally. I'm not saying that all Italian coffee is bad, just that traditional Italian espresso has never had flavour as its primary driver. This is well documented and pretty much unarguable. What else is unarguable is that if you roast beyond a certain darkness you will lose any of the original flavour of the beans and replace it with a generic roastiness. Speak to any decent roaster and they will tell you the same.

Tradition is all fine and dandy, but it's interesting to note that almost all of the advances in technology relating to espresso production have been driven by the speciality industry.

JP


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

jjprestidge said:


> 1) The UK invented many things. Football being one. Does that mean anything? (or are we not shit at football, just because we invented it?) Yours is a fallacious argument.
> 
> 2) I'll give you that one.
> 
> ...


1) I'm not saying Italian espresso is best because they invented it, I'm saying they defined it in a certain way and have maintained that tradition and the technology that goes with it. Read my post again - I'm not claiming this is necessarily a good thing. I'm sure the strictly regulated pizza trade in Naples winds up a lot of new young chefs.

2) Great, we agree on something.

3) Dark roasts can and often do hide bad coffee, but that does not mean dark roasting in itself is bad (my curry analogy holds).

4) I agree very dark roasts destroy everything of interest in the bean and I abhor them, but there is a whole world between the black and oily and the very light roasts currently in fashion. I think your comment supports my point about snobbery.

5) Nothing wrong with flat whites if that is what you like, it's just a very different drink to traditional espresso. Many roasts that work great in flat whites just don't work in espresso. IMHO, of course.

You should also realise I am being deliberately provocative and partly playing the devil's advocate to compensate for some appallingly thin and astringent espressos I've had at celebrated speciality coffee shops and I've stopped pretending I like them. The speciality coffee industry is, of course, an industry and it has to keep trying new techniques to keep the industry going, and I'm very glad it's happening. I just get angry when the Italian tradition is dismissed as being obsolete and irrelevant.

RD


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## Vieux Clou (Oct 22, 2014)

When I first got into espresso I tried various ESE pods without finding one that resembled the espresso I'd had in Italy - until I gave up on the arabicas and tried a pure Italian-roasted robusta.

Bingo.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Vieux Clou said:


> When I first got into espresso I tried various ESE pods without finding one that resembled the espresso I'd had in Italy - until I gave up on the arabicas and tried a pure Italian-roasted robusta.
> 
> Bingo.


You dont drink robusta on its own now though do you ........


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## Vieux Clou (Oct 22, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> You dont drink robusta on its own now though do you ........


Nossir! Nor yet do I use ESE pods.

ETA: or shoot foxes.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Fifth wave: the robusta revival!

An idea who's time has clearly come.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Obnic said:


> Fifth wave: the robusta revival!
> 
> An idea who's time has clearly come.


Its already here.....

"Robusta is low quality coffee and should not be used.Robusta is of a lower quality than it's brother Arabica, however when used in certain ways it can work alongside Arabica to bring out a different side to your coffee. Here at 200 Degrees we believe that by adding robusta to our espresso blend, it not only adds a caffeine kick but also adds a lot of body to the shot and shows off a beautiful amount of crema. There is also a robusta revival slowly starting with other companies showcasing great robusta coffee to rival those neigh sayers."

http://200degs.com/coffee-myths-explained/


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

RoloD said:


> HasBean beans many of which are not, in fact, roasted at all, merely dipped into a bath of beige dye.


Utter tripe


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

RoloD said:


> 7) OK, the last part of the last sentence was actually a lie, but sometimes HasBean's upbeat PR mechanisms have to be countered. Bless 'em.


sometimes folk cant be bothered to brew coffee properly. Bless 'em


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Obnic said:


> Fifth wave: the robusta.


I'm already surfing the 6th Chicory wave....

Oh dear sounds like a euphemism!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Ironically the current italian champ (and last years too) is using coffee which ''isn't roasted at all, merely dipped into a bath of beige dye.''


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

garydyke1 said:


> Ironically the current italian champ (and last years too) is using coffee which ''isn't roasted at all, merely dipped into a bath of beige dye.''


Does that change the taste in the cup as well as the colour/appearance? Just wondering the reason they would use the dye method over roasting?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Obnic said:


> Fifth wave: the robusta revival!
> 
> An idea who's time has clearly come.


Coffee Real sell a 100% Robusta from India, and Black Sheep Coffee have gone one step further and actually have a cafe serving their own roast 100% Robusta. Both have been going for quite a while now.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> You dont drink robusta on its own now though do you ........


Seem to recall Reiss at Londinium offering a SO Robusta - anyone else recall this?


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