# E61 Group and Boiler insulation: Dumb?



## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

Hey folks. In a bid to make my single boiler Isomac Zaffiro slightly more energy efficient and hopefully warm up quicker, I'm considering adding a 6mm silicone foam jacket to the boiler and a combination of 6mm silicone foam and a 3D printed E61 removable group cover. I'll be adding a PID to the machine before I do this. I know that HX machines can be prone to overheating but am I right in thinking that insulating a single boiler with a PID should have no issues?


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

From an engineering perspective, it's no difference I think. You have heat and everything should be rated at that so insulation isn't an issue.

However, you will be changing the thermal footprint.

The internal space will be cooler. This means your cup warmer won't be as warm.

Your boiler won't cool down as quick post-steaming and may need more flushing than normal.

Insulation can be a problem for corrosion. Both by its make up (chloride's) or by harbouring water vapour.

Boiler thermostats can get a bit wierd so you might find that leaving it uninsulated is of benefit.

Your offset may change. That 105c brew stat which has a 10c delta on it may need to be adjusted.

Other than that, the boiler hysteresis gets bigger as heat loss is dramatically reduced. This may or may not be a good thing in practice.

Insulation is cheap. I imagine that it is not used in big standard machines for good reason. (Perhaps it's a space/servicing thing though.

I understand that espresso machines are about heat balance so I would be slow to change the thermal footprint without due thought and experimentation.

Espresso wise, I've no idea if it's good or bad.

I'd be interested in your results if you do this.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

The boiler insulation sounds fine. Most HXs are insulated.

Not so sure about insulating the group. The whole thermosyphon loop happens by the group losing heat. If it doesn't lose heat I'd guess the thermosyphon stops or stalls and this may create some weird differences in whether the group actually stays hot or stalls. Not really sure but worth thinking about. When my thermosyphon stops the group becomes locked and drops a lot in temperature. Its like it needs that release of heat to draw new hot water in to keep it hot.


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## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

Thanks folks. Lots to think about! Some real clever folks in here!

@*Blue_Cafe *I'm adding a PID before I insulate anything so hopefully the new pt100 sensor and software will compensate better than the terrible brew stat that comes as standard.

@*NJD1977* I'd heard about the thermosyphon being reliant on the difference in boiler and group temperatures. Being that they'll both be insulated hopefully this might compensate. I guess I'll try loosely adding insulation to the group and see what happens before spending ages making a fitting 3D printed part. I've read that some folks chuck a towel over the E61 to speed up warming time but how scientific that is I don't know!

The insulation is £14 so not a massive investment. I can't imagine the thing blowing up from being insulated and I'll keep a close eye on temps during testing. More as it happens!


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## soundklinik (May 31, 2013)

@DRAXXMENVONE, did you install the PID on your machine?

I found this thread as I was thinking about insulation of the boiler...(done it a couple of years back but had to take it off because of poor quality insulation that simply baked itself)

my reasoning was to reduce the cycling of Pstat but an SSR would be better


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## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

soundklinik said:


> @DRAXXMENVONE, did you install the PID on your machine?
> I found this thread as I was thinking about insulation of the boiler...(done it a couple of years back but had to take it off because of poor quality insulation that simply baked itself)
> my reasoning was to reduce the cycling of Pstat but an SSR would be better


Hi. Yes. I used some 6mm silicone foam sheet from eBay. Definitely reduces my daily electricity consumption. I also installed a Mr Shades PID. Mr Shades very kindly made a custom probe to replace the pressurestat. Dead band is now less than 1°C as opposed to 10°C! Really enjoying the machine now after a fairly steep learning curve.


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## soundklinik (May 31, 2013)

Thanks, I'm looking for some material to insulate the boiler on my Isomac Tea 2.


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## Marocchino (May 1, 2019)

soundklinik said:


> Thanks, I'm looking for some material to insulate the boiler on my Isomac Tea 2.


 Check out this thread the OP, sourced some from EBay ... about 2/3 the way through he posts a link.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/57074-1971-olympia-club/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=810828&embedComment=810828&embedDo=findComment#comment-810828


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

ahhhh yes...i'd forgotten about that stuff, sat in my watch-list...thanks for the reminder :classic_blush:


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