# Brew times, using Vesuvius.



## rogher (Nov 22, 2020)

I've found that my brew-times have extended, using a reducing pressure profile on the Vesuvius.

I suppose that should be little surprise, as the water will take longer to work its way through.

Another observation is that I can pull more than my normal weight of brew and not detect additional bitterness.

I may try experimenting to see how far I can go but wondered if anyone can comment on their experiences?


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

rogher said:


> I've found that my brew-times have extended, using a reducing pressure profile on the Vesuvius.
> 
> I suppose that should be little surprise, as the water will take longer to work its way through.
> 
> ...


 You should not be surprised by that. I went through the same experience. My shots often are 45-50 seconds and no trace of bitterness. I would say this is one of the beauty of the V as a coffee profiling machine (in fact the first in the market offering this function). It produces excellent shots, shot after shot.


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

My shots are 40-60sec incl preinfusion and they are great for me.


----------



## rogher (Nov 22, 2020)

Perhaps the key is not to maintain the peak pressure for too long. There may be a pressure below which bitterness cannot be obtained. There are so many variables, it could take some time before deducing their impacts.


----------



## rogher (Nov 22, 2020)

L&R said:


> My shots are 40-60sec incl preinfusion and they are great for me.


 I'm doing the pre-infusion separately at the moment. I have put them into the same profile but feel that I have slightly better control that way. Just need to be careful to manage the profile numbers correctly...

P1=pre-infusion

P2=light roast

P3=dark roast

P4=experimentation

P5=back flush


----------



## Karka (Dec 20, 2020)

John Yossarian said:


> You should not be surprised by that. I went through the same experience. My shots often are 45-50 seconds and no trace of bitterness. I would say this is one of the beauty of the V as a coffee profiling machine (in fact the first in the market offering this function). It produces excellent shots, shot after shot.





L&R said:


> My shots are 40-60sec incl preinfusion and they are great for me.


 @John Yossarian @L&R So at what point do you stop your shot? Once the desired weight of espresso is extracted or you let it run until the end of the profile?



rogher said:


> I'm doing the pre-infusion separately at the moment. I have put them into the same profile but feel that I have slightly better control that way. Just need to be careful to manage the profile numbers correctly...
> 
> P1=pre-infusion
> 
> ...


 @rogher what is your profile for the backflush? Actually Would you mind sharing all of your profiles?


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

never drink more than 35ml espresso


----------



## Karka (Dec 20, 2020)

L&R said:


> never drink more than 35ml espresso


 My point being that your shot times are 40-60 seconds. Is this dependent on the bean you are using or are you manually stopping your shot early sometimes once your shot reaches 35ml. The reason I ask is because sometimes using the Vesuvius I will pull a shot that just seems to run a bit faster than it did say the day before. Instead of the 52 second brew cycle, I'll reach the 1:2 ratio in say 45 seconds. So would you just stop the shot early and be happy with it?


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Karka said:


> My point being that your shot times are 40-60 seconds. Is this dependent on the bean you are using or are you manually stopping your shot early sometimes once your shot reaches 35ml. The reason I ask is because sometimes using the Vesuvius I will pull a shot that just seems to run a bit faster than it did say the day before. Instead of the 52 second brew cycle, I'll reach the 1:2 ratio in say 45 seconds. So would you just stop the shot early and be happy with it?


 I have graduated glasses and this is my criterion when to stop. I never go beyond a double ristretto, i.e. 40 ml and I stop the shot manually. In fact I have never waited for the profile to finish on its own.

I very rarely see gushing through the puck but as DaveC has mentioned on many occasions V is asking for a very good grinder.


----------



## Karka (Dec 20, 2020)

John Yossarian said:


> I have graduated glasses and this is my criterion when to stop. I never go beyond a double ristretto, i.e. 40 ml and I stop the shot manually. In fact I have never waited for the profile to finish on its own.
> 
> I very rarely see gushing through the puck but as DaveC has mentioned on many occasions V is asking for a very good grinder.


 Yep that's great to know. I've not had the Vesuvius long and using profiles set up by the previous owner. I never really knew if it was a problem if I stopped the shot slightly early or if I needed to adjust my dose or grind to get the correct ratio in the set time. I'm using a mazzer major currently but have a lagom p-64 on order so pretty sure the grind is good.


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Karka said:


> Yep that's great to know. I've not had the Vesuvius long and using profiles set up by the previous owner. I never really knew if it was a problem if I stopped the shot slightly early or if I needed to adjust my dose or grind to get the correct ratio in the set time. I'm using a mazzer major currently but have a lagom p-64 on order so pretty sure the grind is good.


 You have got all it takes to have brilliant shots indeed.🙂


----------



## rogher (Nov 22, 2020)

Karka said:


> @John Yossarian @L&R So at what point do you stop your shot? Once the desired weight of espresso is extracted or you let it run until the end of the profile?
> 
> @rogher what is your profile for the backflush? Actually Would you mind sharing all of your profiles?


 You may have them by all means.

I may sound more diligent than I actually am. I intended to keep things on a spreadsheet but found that I don't always keep that up to date. I'll attach the sheet for you. If you can use Excel you will see the profiles in the first sheet, with a plot on the second one.

I have used the first stage as a pre-infusion step, so it sometimes has a zero duration and the final (7th) stage as a safety margin (over-run). The core profile sits in stages 2-6. I don't usually weigh the output as it arrives but choose to stop by the appearance of the pour and amount in the cup (for a forgiving Latte) and sometimes exceed the recommended amount.

You can, of course enter your own data and compare results. I've left all the data in it but cannot now remember what all the values represent (memory fades fast with age).

I've set it up to list 30 different profiles but it could easily be adapted.

The 'PLOT' tab/sheet is protected (without a password) to save me from over-writing some of the calculated fields that produce the graph.

The Vesuvius doesn't follow the programmed pressure rigorously, as I'm sure you'll know, but I didn't try to add in factors for acceleration, to smooth the graph. Someone else might like to try that!

I think the key point is the initial peak pressure and the amount of time it's maintained for. After that, we can play with the rate of decline (which seems to avoid going 'hard' enough to extract bitterness). There's so much to learn! As I've been using the machine for less than a month (@ two shots or less/day) I am in the very early stages of discovery.

Ahhh - just found that I cannot upload a spreadsheet...

(is there a back-door?)

I've loaded it as a PDF instead.

View attachment Profiles.pdf


----------



## Karka (Dec 20, 2020)

rogher said:


> You may have them by all means.
> 
> I may sound more diligent than I actually am. I intended to keep things on a spreadsheet but found that I don't always keep that up to date. I'll attach the sheet for you. If you can use Excel you will see the profiles in the first sheet, with a plot on the second one.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for that. So much information to get my head around! I really like the idea of allowing for the over-run.


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

FYI there isn't a a pressure below which bitterness cannot be obtained. There's nothing particularly odd about 40-60 second shot times, especially with extended pre-infusion and especially at low ratios that are very difficult to over extract with a light-medium roast.


----------



## rogher (Nov 22, 2020)

Karka said:


> Thanks for that. So much information to get my head around! I really like the idea of allowing for the over-run.


 No probs.

I note that, in my haste to please, the data I sent was not very tidy and no valid profile had been selected, so that the plot was blank.

I first started with two profiles: One for pre-infusion. this was a 'flat' 2.0bar but I found was not always enough to 'break through'. That's why I added the rising pressures after an initial 2.0 but never needed to get to the far end. The second profile was a standard 'flat' 9.0bar which I used to judge the initial set-up with (it seemed like a good idea at the time), to get 38g from an 18g grind in around 25sec after first drip.

Now that I have that set up, I'm trying to keep everything the same and intend to 'play' with the pressure. Concentrating on initial peak, then duration, then rate of decline...

Don't rely on what I'm doing, though. It could be a case of the blind leading the blind...

If you'd like a copy of my Excel sheet, PM me and I think I can let you have it that way.


----------



## sms4Huo (Feb 14, 2021)

Considering Vesuvius - seemingly great machine

Looks like several of you have extended experience with this machine.. they are at significant discount currently, and I am concerned about quality issues.. what has been your experience? Also, are ALL machines coming with SS tubing and upgraded sensors, or just those imported to the US by US distributors/dealer?


----------



## Karka (Dec 20, 2020)

rogher said:


> No probs.
> 
> I note that, in my haste to please, the data I sent was not very tidy and no valid profile had been selected, so that the plot was blank.
> 
> ...


 Yeah that all makes a lot of sense. Great idea to start with a flat 9bar just to set the standard to compare all variations. It's good to know and be able to easily see and taste the benefits of pressure profile.

I'll drop you a dm with my email so you can forward your spreadsheet. Saves me a lot of legwork 😆


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

sms4Huo said:


> Considering Vesuvius - seemingly great machine
> 
> Looks like several of you have extended experience with this machine.. they are at significant discount currently, and I am concerned about quality issues.. what has been your experience? Also, are ALL machines coming with SS tubing and upgraded sensors, or just those imported to the US by US distributors/dealer?


 Why are you concerned about quality issues?

Are you in the US or EU/UK?

I don't believe all of them come with SS tubing as standard.


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

SS is a upgrade.


----------



## sjm85 (Sep 9, 2016)

rogher said:


> You may have them by all means.
> 
> I may sound more diligent than I actually am. I intended to keep things on a spreadsheet but found that I don't always keep that up to date. I'll attach the sheet for you. If you can use Excel you will see the profiles in the first sheet, with a plot on the second one.
> 
> ...


 I still have very limited experience, but using a similar approach.

I was faffing around at the start with "lever" profiles, but ended up just using a simple 20s 2bar pre-infusion, then 9 bar until I reach 2:1 extraction, usually after about 45-60 seconds. Got some decent results even with a flat profile.

Now I am starting to tweak that profile a tad with a taper. I find that bitter coffee is somewhat drinkable, for me but sour under extracted coffee I have to pour down the sink. So I tend to always run for close to 60 second including pre-infusion, just to make sure I don't under extract. But I am also having problems with the pump accelerometer settings, so trying to sort that out at the same time!

I am hoping to do some sort of review at some point with my experience. I think unless you really know what your doing (grind settings, PID settings, pump acc settings, and pressure settings), it's better to use a flat profile and so you don't get frustrated too at the beginning!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

sjm85 said:


> I still have very limited experience, but using a similar approach.
> 
> I was faffing around at the start with "lever" profiles, but ended up just using a simple 20s 2bar pre-infusion, then 9 bar until I reach 2:1 extraction, usually after about 45-60 seconds. Got some decent results even with a flat profile.


 If you want to see exactly what a commercial spring lever lever profile does, pressures etc.....check out my latest vid on YouTube. Then try and program it in.


----------



## sjm85 (Sep 9, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> If you want to see exactly what a commercial spring lever lever profile does, pressures etc.....check out my latest vid on YouTube. Then try and program it in.


 Thanks Dave. Will take a look!

I work at the hospital, but my wife works at home and uses the machine daily. So a lever was always out of the question, but it'd be good to emulate it as much as possible with the V to experience the results!

I could use some help with the pump acc settings. I will start a separate thread. We are also getting a Helios 80 delivered tomorrow, I was waiting for a Niche but am using the extra money from selling my Gaggia/SJ for an on-demand grinder, which again, is better option for us. Never been a fan of single dosing. Will get the grinder set up, and then ask for help!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

If its a V sold in the last year or 2, then the Cruzet, who make the induction part of the pump for Fluid-o-tech changed the impulses per second parameters. This means the pump acceleration numbers may have to be far lower than the ones in my documentation..giving a smoother transition from one pressure stage, to another.


----------



## rogher (Nov 22, 2020)

The PWM Max Accel. Setting on my new machine is 400 (no idea what units). I haven't changed any of the factory settings on the basis that I don't know any better. I have noticed that it takes a few seconds to ramp up to 9 bar (and then overshoots) but haven't been tempted to adjust anything yet.

I'm still swapping between a familiar flat 9bar profile (as my baseline for comparison) and a higher initial pressure, reducing. At one shot a day and only one change at a time, occasionally, means it could be a long voyage of discovery&#8230;

I have made notes about settings and using the machine and am still adding to them as it helps me to understand what is going on (ECO mode sounded simple enough, at first, until I started to use the interface).


----------



## rogher (Nov 22, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> If you want to see exactly what a commercial spring lever lever profile does, pressures etc.....check out my latest vid on YouTube. Then try and program it in.


 Where does one find these?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@rogher https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAfG0tPhSaANfnM3YHL9zYA


----------



## rogher (Nov 22, 2020)

Many thanks, Dave!


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> @rogher https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAfG0tPhSaANfnM3YHL9zYA


 Excellent video. It is about Vostok 1 gr right? Link here:






I believe the Vesuvius is being sold with a profile that mimics Lever machine profile, short infusion and a jump to almost 10.5 bars before it slowly drops as time goes. This profile produces incredible sweet shots. My wife was very surprised first time I made her a coffee using it.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

John Yossarian said:


> 1. Excellent video. It is about Vostok 1 gr right? Link here:
> 
> 2. I believe the Vesuvius is being sold with a profile that mimics Lever machine profile, short infusion and a jump to almost 10.5 bars before it slowly drops as time goes. This profile produces incredible sweet shots. My wife was very surprised first time I made her a coffee using it.


 1. Watching the manometer in the last portion of the video is what will give a good idea of the type of profile and how to mimic it. It's one of the reasons I set my pump acceleration slower, to try and come closer to that smooth gradual transition in pressure that a lever produces.

2. It is, the basic supplied profile on the Vesuvius tries to Mimic the profile of a professionally configured commercial spring Lever group. The view in ACS was that was one of the best spring lever groups out there...it's certainly more expensive to buy. ACS use both the Fiorenzato and La San Marco groups, but in a dual spring configuration and have considerable experience with levers. yes, the shots can be very sweet.

My general findings over the years has been overly long shots or high pressure preinfusion (much above 3 bar)that goes on for too long results in some bitterness. I suspect this is partly due to having to grind very fine. I've found that about 10 seconds, or a little less, plus shot times that don't go on too long seem to give the best results.


----------



## rogher (Nov 22, 2020)

My machine came with [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], then [email protected] on P1.

I assume that is the lever profile you refer to?

All the other pressure profiles were a somewhat less inspiring [email protected], [email protected], then [email protected]


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@rogher I think so yes...I have always made the point that the 9 bar on pumped machines was trying to average out the pressures.

Here is something that's not well known because people tend to make up their own minds....and it doesn't matter what you say some people won't be convinced. Back in the day, some almost 17 years ago, I fell in love with the Izzo Pompeii spring lever and specifically the La San Marco group it used. I tried to persuade them to make a 1 group that was suitable for the home, but they wouldn't do it. They did make a 1 group, but it was just too massive. They had little interest in the home market, especially for lever machines. There were a few concerns about the proper setup for the group, typical mounting height in a domestic setting, tipping etc.. and of course sales volumes.

Later I saw ACS had the Ventus, but it used the Fiorenzato group and was really designed for a small cafe, was large and had to be plumbed again not for me. Then the Vostok appeared, so 5 years ago now and Immediately I was in love again. It had the right group, the right sort of technology but was mains water fed and again far too large. I started pestering ACS then to make a 1 group version with an internal tank, dual boilers, etc.. that was small enough to fit on the counter.....The shape of the Vostok case didn't scale down correctly....3 years on, I got fed up waiting, realised that all the work on 2 machines..Minima and Vesuvius, made the dream possible and roughed out something.

So yes, that profile on the V attempts to mimic as far as possible a La San Marco spring lever group, which is I personally consider to be the best lever group around.

P.S. yes, I've always loved levers, used quite a few and even reviewed some....however none of the prosumer spring levers were doing it for me over the years.


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

rogher said:


> My machine came with [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], then [email protected] on P1.
> 
> I assume that is the lever profile you refer to?
> 
> All the other pressure profiles were a somewhat less inspiring [email protected], [email protected], then [email protected]


 This is the exact profile I have got too.


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> @rogher I think so yes...I have always made the point that the 9 bar on pumped machines was trying to average out the pressures.
> 
> Here is something that's not well known because people tend to make up their own minds....and it doesn't matter what you say some people won't be convinced. Back in the day, some almost 17 years ago, I fell in love with the Izzo Pompeii spring lever and specifically the La San Marco group it used. I tried to persuade them to make a 1 group that was suitable for the home, but they wouldn't do it. They did make a 1 group, but it was just too massive. They had little interest in the home market, especially for lever machines. There were a few concerns about the proper setup for the group, typical mounting height in a domestic setting, tipping etc.. and of course sales volumes.
> 
> ...


 @DavecUK As the saying goes "old love never dies" and this is an excellent example from which the CFUK members will benefit. The Vostok story and your perseverance would be the example for any business to follow.

For sellers of ACS equipment, especially Vesuvius, I am surprised that they have not used the P1 (profile) as USP (unique selling point), to be able to mimic at home the best La San Marco spring lever group is a massive advert.


----------

