# Need recommendation for a new machine



## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

Hi folks!

First of all let me apologize, I am actually from the US not UK. But I found this forum very helpful and was hoping someone could give me some advice. I'm looking to "upgrade" from a Nespresso machine and need some recommendations. Here are my rough requirements:



Espresso must taste noticeably better than Nespresso 


Mainly espresso, with the occasional (several times a week) latte.


Quick start up time. I want to wake up and make my coffee without setting an alarm for 15 minutes earlier.


Ease of use. I'm willing to spend some time learning, but generally I need something that's user friendly. Not looking for "pro mode".


Looks. This one is important because many of the Italian made machines (like the Gaccia Classic) look quite dated. I want something modern and slick looking.


Compact. Somewhat related to the previous bullet. I have limited counterspace. Can't afford a monstrosity sitting on it, and it needs to pass the wife test 


Budget: roughly 2000 USD


Does what I'm looking for exist? Needless to say, I've been looking at the Breville machines (or as you guys call them, Sage?). They look nice and sleek, but seems like a lot of people dislike them, especially their grinders. Anyhow, would love to get your thoughts!

Thanks in advance!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Dannydan Sage seem to work well, especially the dual boiler models, my only gripe is with repairability and right of repair...in the UK we don't have that.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sage-BES920UK-Boiler-Espresso-Machine/dp/B00G6FVTTE

You would need a separate grinder and something better than a sage one would be recommended, such as a Eureka Mignon or similar.

There is always the option of the Lelit Elzabeth, which is a similar price and modern looking as well....The Lelit machines are super quiet, the Elizabeth having the same quiet pump as the mara X, but for some reason is even quieter.

Finally the MaraX, but that's more traditional a look.






Welcome to the forum


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

$2000 all in or just for machine?

Lots of people happy with their Sage Dual Boilers, those are worth a look. Most brands have traditional coffee machine styling, what about an updated looking version of the classic look? Check out the Crem One machines maybe.

All machines require a bit of heat up I think. You can set a wifi plug though, have them turn on before you get up.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

Dannydan said:


> Does what I'm looking for exist?


 Good question. 🙂 Are you looking for a new hobby? If you are, for your budget you can get good kit and jump straight in.

To get coffee 'noticeably better than Nespresso', unless you can find a similar system that you like better (Iperespresso?), you will have to significantly give up the 'ease of use' you are used to, as well as the compact size.

To get the best results you will need a good grinder for any machine you get (more counter space, less 'ease of use'). With any kit you will need to source good fresh coffee, and you will need to dial-in new beans (much more hassle than stocking and using sealed capsules).

For any gear you get you will need maintenance to keep it clean (otherwise it will not taste noticeably better than...). A good machine will need soft water so you don't block it with scale...

If you are up for it - welcome to the hobby (some nice machines were already recommended above)! 🙂 If not - there is still time to run away. 😉


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

Thanks everyone for your input! I don't know if I'm up for the hobby yet, but you never know! I never thought I'd spend hours folding dough and making sourdough, but the pandemic and working from home certainly enabled it, and I love the results  
That said, I'm not always up for so much work. I only bake every 2 weeks, while I drink coffee 3 times a day...

I really like the appeal of an all-in-one. Even more so the Breville, which looks modern and slick. And I really hate how dated some of those grinders look. The Sette 270 for example looks like something straight from the 90s...

Perhaps let me ask this differently. Is there an all-in-one that doesn't require a lot of fiddling and gets decent ("better than Nespresso") results? Also, why is the dual broiler important if the Breville can heat up very quickly?

My budget is $2k total, grinder included.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The Sage DB offers the turn on and use option when ever you like. That is a big appeal for me. It's 3min and ready. If some one wants a hot portafilter add a couple of mins. I've found it makes no difference and in any case is still rather a lot quicker than others. It's not unusual for a machine to need 45min. Under 1/2hr completely - I don't think any offer that.

Performance wise, temperature stability for instance seems to be very hard to knock. I think Sage should offer more filter basket sizes rather than just the 2 that come with them but as 58mm other makes can be used however they tend to hold more than their stated capacity on the DB.

As some mention repair is something of a problem in the UK and Sage do not always have the parts they should offer in stock. People are finding ways of fixing them though. The situation in Australia and I think in the USA is rather different.

Sage machines now come with a proper water softening filter. Water hardness and scale are a significant problem in some areas of the UK. The filters are not that cheap. I live in a soft water area. Another appeal for me - descaling isn't quick but very easy to do. It isn't on some machines.

Looks though. They are neat but as the tooling needed to make them is rather costly they don't change that area - at all on some models for rather a long time. Just small mods now and again. The Bambino is an exception, totally new model along with it's tooling but sound like the internals are very similar to others. There are other styles of machine that look totally different to run of the mill but costly.

Push button shots. That's my hobby. Even miniscule changes to how the grinds are prepared after grinding changes the output so most people weigh shots out. Push a button to start and again to stop. At least it shows shot time as it comes.

Grinders are much the same. I have found that an electronic grinder can produce reliable dose weights but only if the same bean is always used. Even then the weight out needs checking and grind time adjustments will be needed now and again. So many people finish up weighing a dose of beans into a grinder. There are all sorts of reasons why some one might wonder about other models when they have one, type and size of burrs, ease of weighing in. Picking one is likely to finish up being the buyers choice from several. Various amounts can be spent. My view on the cheap end is the Sage one. It's easy to use and can work well weighing *most *beans in as it comes. It will get unhappy with an extremely oily bean I drink a lot used like this but it can cause other grinders problems. Niche has upset the home grinder market. It weighs in well and pretty flawlessly but if some one wants one they need to wait. They sell out very quickly. A new model has appeared but IMHO it doesn't really match Niche for this type of use.

 That's one view of the DB anyway. I see it as hard to beat. Even more so at it's price point.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Dannydan said:


> Perhaps let me ask this differently. Which combination of machine / grinder requires the *least* amount of fiddling to get decent ("better than Nespresso") results? Also, why is the dual broiler important if the Breville can heat up very quickly?


 The dual boiler gives the best brewing temperature stability and higher steam power compared with Sage's other machines. Those are more bean to cup like in terms of brewing pressure as well. Scale problems on them can rear their head a lot more quickly. Having used both types I don't see the brewing pressure difference as a problem. Very similar drinks can be produced but grinds in to shot out ratio and shot time may in some cases need to differ significantly. There are comments about suitability for light roasts but I am not convinced about the reasoning. The brew pressure may figure. In my experience it tends to get more out of the grinds.

I wondered if you were wondering about the Oracle actually. A DB with built in grinder that also prepares the grinds. Some have set these up so that members of the family can make drinks and keep the messing about for themselves. Some have seen it as the best bean to cup machine on the planet. Weighing shots out may still be the best option. Complaints

1st machine didn't work properly. Seems to get sorted out.

Some aspect isn't working any more - grinding area may need cleaning etc.

Uses too much coffee. Some adjust them. I'd suggest finding a well made 12g basket for another machine first. One with a depth that should reduce the dose of grinds.

Bitter coffee etc - can be a user problem on all machines.

Touch or none touch. For family use the touch is probably a better option.  One was recently found to touch itself at random. I assume this was sorted out.

Sage machines do arrive with faults at times but they sell a lot. Others have been known to have problems as well. Reported fault rates seem to relate to sales on all machines.

Repair etc - no different really to other sage's but selling used may be more of a problem.

I'm unlikely to buy one so over all pass. Comments on them have often been positive


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## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

If you don't like the 'steampunk' look of most prosumer coffee machines (lots of chrome, with an E61 group head), the choice is very limited. The Sage/Breville Dual Boiler and the Lelit Elizabeth, each with a separate grinder (the Niche is highly recommended) are pretty much the best solutions in your price range. You would have to spend significantly more for a better 'appliance looking machine' (e.g. Decent machine).

Some of the cheaper Lelit or Sage might be worth considering (Sage Bambino Plus, Lelit Victoria) below your budget if you're willing to trade upgrade options and the ability to make milk drinks without any wait, but these machines are significantly more limited than the SDB or Elizabeth should this interest become a hobby.


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

Sorry for the silly question, why not just forego the grinder and buy ground coffee?


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## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

Ground coffee loses some if its qualities very very quickly (some demanding baristas will through ground coffee within less than a minute), and most commercially available ground coffee is not ground finely enough for the prosumer espresso machines (it does works with low end machines which use special pressurised baskets, but that's far from optimal).

You would also be foregoing one important adjustment variable, as playing with grind coarseness is usually how one ensures that a given amount of beans (dose) generates the desired amount of liquid in the cup (usually around 2x the weight of the ground beans) in the desired amount of time (25-30 seconds or thereabouts) to make an espresso.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Dannydan said:


> Sorry for the silly question, why not just forego the grinder and buy ground coffee?


 You could. That is what the dual wall filter baskets are for. Espresso shots and beans need a grinder. Most on here use fresh roasted beans. Some say super market type beans wont grind well enough for use with a single wall filter basket. They should work with a dual wall. Fresh roasted bean suppliers will also grind them for espresso but they are likely to be only usable with a certain dose of them and will also go stale more quickly than beans.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

Dannydan said:


> Sorry for the silly question, why not just forego the grinder and buy ground coffee?


 I think you are unlikely to better Nespresso capsules with pre ground coffee, no mater how good your machine is. (because you will probably not have the grind right and the coffee won't be fresh. Nespresso is of course also pre-ground, but the coffee will be ground correctly for the machine and sealed till it's used).


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

Thanks guys. The Niche grinder mentioned earlier, is it this one?:

https://www.nichecoffee.co.uk/

Looks very nice. I could definitely have that on my counter 

Too bad it's sold out.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Dannydan They release batches for sale every month. Subscribe to them and you will receive a notification of when the next batch are up


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

Looks like you have to feed it the beans for each cup though?


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

Ok so now I'm kinda thinking maybe this Niche grinder with the Breville Bambino Plus could be a combo that's pleasant to the eye, and under my budget?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Dannydan It is called single dosing as opposed to having a hopper that holds an amount of beans. Advantages and disadvantages to both. The Niche also has virtually zero retention, meaning the vast majority of the beans you put in come out as found coffee, which is not the same for all grinders


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Dannydan said:


> Ok so now I'm kinda thinking maybe this Niche grinder with the Breville Bambino Plus could be a combo that's pleasant to the eye, and under my budget?


 That will be nice. Bambino Plus is well rated entry machine and the Niche is the best choice at that price point. That grinder will give you a lot more out of a Bambino which is relatively easy to get to grips with. Still, be prepared for a month or two learning, like any machine it takes time to learn about machine and grinder. No set up mentioned is a quick button press and you are done. Don't forget £100 or so for accessories.


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## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Can't go wrong getting a niche grinder. Be aware they are a bit like the ps5 these days (not easy to get) so plan accordingly. I use mine every day several years on, and obviously no regrets - it's outlasted several espresso machines as well as v60 etc. I'd opt for a sage/breville dual boiler as mentioned above.


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

What accessories?


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## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

The Bambino comes with a tamper and milk jug. You will possibly want to buy a knock box, tamping mat or stand. I also have a 3d printed funnel a distribution tool and a WDT tool and a calibrated tamper.


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

dutchy101 said:


> The Bambino comes with a tamper and milk jug. You will possibly want to buy a knock box, tamping mat or stand. I also have a 3d printed funnel a distribution tool and a WDT tool and a calibrated tamper.


 And in English?


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

Ok so just to wrap up: Bambino Plus + Niche grinder = noticeably better than Nespresso, yes?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Dannydan Yes.

BUT, it might be worth considering a slightly more expensive machine...you are not into the area of diminishing returns yet


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Dannydan Yes.
> 
> BUT, it might be worth considering a slightly more expensive machine...you are not into the area of diminishing returns yet


 So the issue I have is not so much with budget. I showed my wife the Lelit Elzabeth and she did not approve  
Second issue is the start up time on "traditional" boilers. I don't really want to plan ahead when I want to drink coffee. So the 3 second heat up on the Breville sounds enticing, assuming of course it works as advertised...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dannydan said:


> So the issue I have is not so much with budget. I showed my wife the Lelit Elzabeth and she did not approve
> Second issue is the start up time on "traditional" boilers. I don't really want to plan ahead when I want to drink coffee. So the 3 second heat up on the Breville sounds enticing, assuming of course it works as advertised...


 What about the Breville dual boiler?


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> What about the Breville dual boiler?


 I was considering that one...but I have very limited counterspace. So that machine + grinder is stretching it...
It also doesn't have that automatic milk frothing feature.
Do you feel it's worth the extra $1k over the Bambino Plus? Is the advantage primarily being able to froth milk and pull a shot simultaneously?


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

Hmm, i just realized, perhaps I can make some room for the DB if it can also be used for tea? How much hot water can it put out?


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## Nightrider_1uk (Apr 26, 2020)

Having come from a background of using Nespresso machines for several years ,I got fed up with the coffee both genuine and compatible capsules. I'd been introduced to the world of aeropress whilst working away from home. This kindled my yearning for better coffee at home.

I brought a secondhand Gaggia classic and used my aeropress hand grinder. I've not looked back since. I've just ordered the Niche Zero (looks lovely in white).

I understand your dislike of heat up times so I use mine on a wifi plug. If I want a quick coffee outside the times I usually drink, I will get out the aeropress.

Would I buy a sage in a single word NO, for may of the reasons stated in previous posts. My classic is 15 years old and still going strong. Would a sage be?

There are plenty of good looking machines out there that make great coffee (and that what we are all looking for). If you need something to look pretty in the kitchen, buy a piece of art, otherwise your'll end up with something that looks nice but makes ok coffee.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Dannydan said:


> Hmm, i just realized, perhaps I can make some room for the DB if it can also be used for tea? How much hot water can it put out?


 No the hot water is correct for coffee too cool for tea. Sage's other machines that produce hot water are the same. The DB uses brew water for hot water so starts at 93C and in my case when in a mug gives ~300ml at ~85C. Many other dual boiler machines take water off the steam boiler. That is a lot hotter in fact one view is that it's only suitable for tea. Same with HX machines which are trickier to use.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Nightrider_1uk said:


> Would I buy a sage in a single word NO, for may of the reasons stated in previous posts. My classic is 15 years old and still going strong. Would a sage be?


 Given that it had been looked after and a few bits replaced it may well be. The new Gagia has a solenoid. Sage machines always have them. Scale problems rear their head more quickly on thermo type machines and scale at some point will cause grief on all machines. Some aspects of repair on Sage machines are not as bad as they were. O ring seal replacement has never been a problem. Repair in the UK is more of a problem than in Australia. Not sure about the USA. A German decided to sell the solenoids. No one in the UK has. My DB has done near 2,500 shots many of which have been 10oz americano. The pump is showing signs of needing replacement. Providing some one is happy to dive in and replace it that isn't a problem. Probably down to maintenance the solenoid has rattled. I opened it up and cleaned it and decided to back flush more often. The machine doesn't ask for it often enough.

Scale on Sage thermo machines is rather TBD at the moment due to the change of water filter and also probably the use of the thermojet rather than coil. Even so people probably wont want to replace the filter when they should or descale for that matter.

Gaggia. People buy one and from what I see find a gauge to adjust brew pressure. They fit PID which on the boiler size it uses is unlikely give perfect brew temperature. Single boiler dual use - bit of a pain if some one makes milk based drinks. I wouldn't buy one even though I don't drink milk based or make them very often. I dismissed it completely when I bought my first machine.  An alternate view. I'd rather buy a better machine in the first place even though it uses an awkward filter basket size but few want to use different sizes of filter basket. I did.


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

Ok final question, I hope 

Bambino or Bambino Plus?


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## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

There is only the Bambino Plus as far as I am aware. People might refer to the Bambino but it is called the Bambino Plus


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## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

In some markets, like the OP's there is a 'regular' Bambino and a 'Bambino Plus'... https://www.breville.com/us/en/products/espresso.html#featuredRanking desc.

It seems the regular Bambino lacks all the milk settings which make the Plus model somewhat interesting, but that it can produce hot water and (basic steam)


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## Uriel4953 (Dec 1, 2019)

Personally I went with a Niche and a Sage Dual Temp Pro which is very similar to the bambino. I was also coming from Nespresso and found that once I had mastered the machine the results where definitely superior. I went with the Sage as I was personally looking for a good morning coffee not really a hobby, and I got it from Lakeland with a 3 YR warranty so I figured if it served me till then and the broke I was happy enough at the price I payed.


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

Bummer that it only comes with a dual wall basket. I'm going to guess that you guys recommend I pick up at 2 cup, single wall basket correct?


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

I just realized, wouldn't the 54mm portafilter be a pain in the butt to use with the niche grinder?


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