# Over Extraction / Adding hot water....??



## Alan Kilroy (Dec 22, 2017)

Can someone explain to me, whether I'm over analysing this, am I doing something wrong or, as I think, jog on, nothing to see here.









16 to 18grs. approx 25-30secs. not really measuring weight of shot or cc's. New Compak K3 last week, finally happy with grind size etc. (New scales in the post actually)

So, I take half a spoon of sugar, dash of milk and after the shot is pulled, add a dash of kettle off the boil water to add volume basically.

If I was to let the shot continue till I got approx a full cup, is this what over extraction is? Is adding hot water to the shot not basically the same thing?

Even if I did measure output volume/weight, I'd still add off the boil water to get a longer drink.

If I was to go to 35/40 seconds is that Over Extraction?

Not an Espresso drinker.

Cheers.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Adding water to a shot changes the strength but not the extraction yield ( be it under or over )

Putting more water through a puck of coffee will at some point lead to over extraction .


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## lestat132 (Dec 27, 2017)

Hey Alan, from what I understand, yes letting the machine run on beyond a full extraction of the coffee will lead to overextraction (aka "blonding") which will then begin to draw our the sour, acrid notes of the beans and impair the rest of your shot.

Extracting the coffee to the correct degree then adding water on top will make it a bigger, longer drink and dilute the flavour profile somewhat but thats preferable to overextracting the beans and negatively impacting the shot with acridity and sourness. 40 seconds definitely sounds like overextractrion territory.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

....because running the shot longer has put more water in contact with the coffee grinds.

Whereas the water you add with the kettle has not touched any coffee grinds ;-)


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The best thing to do is to try it. There are all sorts of rules concerning coffee and espresso machines but the object is to obtain a drink that the drinker likes. That might involve over or under extraction or even discarding some portion of a shot.

There are all sorts of variations. I drink long black style drinks with a bit of milk as well. I start by using the rules. My single basket holds around 9.5g of coffee so grind and fill to get something in the range of 20 to 30g out in the usual 30 secs. That's using ratio's - another way of looking at it circa 1 in to 2 out up to 1 to 3. Dilute for the size of drink I want and taste. What I found is that running a double through it (60 sec) produced a drink which as far as I am concerned had exactly the same taste but was somewhat stronger so that's what I do with the bean I use most.

I've found that the machine I use struggles to get down to a ratio of 1 to 2 so what ever bean I use it's generally higher than that. Where things can get confusing is the other way of looking at a shot. A single is 30ml / g, a double 60. Some people may be able to use say 16g + of coffee to achieve a 30ml shot. Some people might weigh shots to get exactly 30ml, others might use a timed shot so the 30ml will vary a bit.

John

-


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## Alan Kilroy (Dec 22, 2017)

Good advice guys, cheers.

When my new scales arrives next week I'll go down the ratios route, not that the drinks I'm making aren't good, beans are subscription and always in date.

Actually, got 500grs of a darker roast arriving this week, so I like a stronger taste, I'll cut them with my regular lighter roast and experiment.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Where things can get confusing is the other way of looking at a shot. A single is 30ml / g, a double 60. Some people may be able to use say 16g + of coffee to achieve a 30ml shot. Some people might weigh shots to get exactly 30ml, others might use a timed shot so the 30ml will vary a bit.
> 
> John
> 
> -


A single is a shot made with a single dose (a wide range, let's say for argument's sake 7-11g of ground coffee), it could be 10g in the cup, it could be 100g. A double could easily overlap in terms of output, but is made with a double dose in a double filter basket (14 to 22g).

Nobody uses scales to hit 30ml, in the same way no one uses an inch ruler to measure 3cm. Use the scales to measure in g & keep your brew ratio consistent. Coffee extraction is a mass, not volume, exercise. You can make drinks at a wide range of weights, not just sticking to 30ml or 60ml. I don't know where these specific numbers come from, any espresso definition (from Illy, INEI, SCAA) I have seen has a range, not an immovable target.

The longer you pull your shot, to make a longer espresso, the less shot time you might need. Maybe 20-25sec? Go with more weight in the cup on the drip tray scales, rather than longer time to pull a short shot.

A filter coffee made with 17g dose would be around 245g of black coffee. You might try a little stronger (less black coffee weight) before adding milk. You could conceivably be pulling shots that weigh 51g to 68g on the drip tray, before topping up with water.

Over-extaction is pretty rare with lighter/medium roasts, more feasible with dark roasts. It is the amount of ground coffee dose that is dissolved into the cup, relative to dose weight, not time, not g/ml of beverage size. You pick a realistic brew ratio, stick to it & control the grind size to effect a good extraction. This can be measured with a refractometer (expensive) or, when you find your coffee is naturally sweet/balanced, with no sharp tartness, nor drying, smoky bitterness, you'll be in the ball-park. A lot of people find that when coffee is normally extracted, the natural sweetness comes through and adding sugar is less necessary.

Bear in mind, your espresso machine is effectively a kettle that forces the hot water under pressure through the coffee puck...that is all. It doesn't *make* your coffee, you do that with dose weight, beverage weight & grind size...just like with a cafetiere or a drip filter. If you do it right & keep doing the same thing, your coffee will mostly be good, on the other hand if you repeatedly make the same mistakes, or attribute your results to irrelevant factors (30ml in 30s, phases of the moon, how many magpies on the lawn at time of shot), you will struggle.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Just for the fun of it:

Apart from personal preference (which always goes before rules and standards), pushing a cup worth of water through a single dose would be

- a "Verlängerter", nowadays widely served in Vienna (as opposed to the traditional pre-espresso Mocca from a Karlsbad coffee maker with water added in the cup)

- the coffee part of a typical "Café Crème" you'd get in Switzerland edit: and other parts of Austria as well

- an "Abatanado" you'd see in Portugal

- a doubtful method of producing a "Caffè Americano"

These come to my mind right now - everybody feel free to add/discuss, of course!

I prefer adding water afterwards since you can better control the outcome dash by dash.

Then it's like watering whisky, where you discover the more graceful and refined flavours that have been hidden underneath the bold and basic ones.

If you add milk to the mix, the difference in preparation might even go unnoticed because milk normalises sour peaks to a certain extent...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The 30 and 60ml come from 1 and 2 usa fl ozs.so in some ways are as old as the hills. Some people use shot glasses that have 30 and 60ml graduations on them for tuning. Not an easy thing to find so people tend to use 1ml weighs 1g as they are likely to have scales anyway.

Traditionally filter baskets are 7g for a single and 14g for a double. A 7 is likely to struggle holding 9. There is also a light single, 6g and a light double 12g. A manufacturer tells me that all they really sell is 7's and 14's plus a few 12's. That is going to mostly be sales to commercial users. As La Spaz baskets sort of fit my BE I finally found what they offer. The same series of baskets.

Machines vary too. My Piccino will only produce the same level of taste as my BE if I use more coffee in it. The 7g basket can't do it. On the BE I am running close to where the OPV opens. If I happened to have a Sage dual boiler it looks like I could run at higher pressure and as a consequence use a finer grind. Is that over or under extraction?

A local church has a cafe. They use a machine to produce a couple of litres of coffee. I pump drips it through a paper filter that contains the coffee. The coffee comes in packets aimed to suite the machine, the lot goes in. They found a blend that people like. Some put lots of milk in it, some very little, other use those little creamer pots in it







2 in some cases.

There is another variable as well. When water has been added for my long blacks it comes out as 310ml. I might add up to 30ml of semi skimmed milk to that. If I use full fat it would taste like I was drinking a cup of lard. I don't use sugar. Some people do.

It all boils down to a matter of taste not doing this or that does this or this should be done and anything else is unacceptable. Any opinion people have in this area I assume produces a taste that they like - also related to the beans that they happen to be using.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> The 30 and 60ml come from 1 and 2 usa fl ozs.so in some ways are as old as the hills. Some people use shot glasses that have 30 and 60ml graduations on them for tuning. Not an easy thing to find so people tend to use 1ml weighs 1g as they are likely to have scales anyway.
> 
> Traditionally filter baskets are 7g for a single and 14g for a double.
> 
> It all boils down to a matter of taste not doing this or that does this or this should be done and anything else is unacceptable.


I have shot glasses, with lines, when filled to the line with cold water they hold different weights & volumes. They are not consistent from one to another, then add meniscus issues due to crema & parallax error and you may as well be measuring in factors of 'a dog's knee height'.

Even the SCAA (American) states a range of shot volume & dose. Espresso was not invented in the US, so I'm not sure why the Italians would adopt a non-metric unit.

What is the name of the popular, UK market, espresso machine manufacturer that only provide 7g & 14g baskets?

It boils down to relaying information that is universal, that remains constant when read by somebody who is not in your presence & not able to watch what you are doing, but trying to follow/compare to your method. Whatever the target, which can be so broad as to make discussion meaningless & non specific advice useless. Anyone can do whatever they want, but to communicate we need to have a datum & we need feedback from the OP on how what he is doing relates to his preference (because that is what we are trying to hit), before we start suggesting things that are 'what I call a nice cup of coffee, that you can only get in my kitchen'.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

As others have said try weighing in and out which will give you more consistency. At least you'll then be able to reproduce whatever extraction you prefer.


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## Alan Kilroy (Dec 22, 2017)

On reflection........my adding hot water to my shot is more about, getting a hotter drink really. My Gaggia Classic, the newer model, never gets my shot piping hot, or do they ever?

For instance this morning, had it on for about half an hour, on off on off, auto off but switch it on again immediately, before I pulled the trigger. PF heated, cup hot, a couple of flushes through Group head.

On my second cup now, it's never hot enough, so kettle at the ready to top up.

Is this the way it is then......period. Shot comes out hot enough but not...........Oh, have to add almost boiling water.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Alan Kilroy said:


> On reflection........my adding hot water to my shot is more about, getting a hotter drink really. My Gaggia Classic, the newer model, never gets my shot piping hot, or do they ever?
> 
> For instance this morning, had it on for about half an hour, on off on off, auto off but switch it on again immediately, before I pulled the trigger. PF heated, cup hot, a couple of flushes through Group head.
> 
> ...


A shot might be 60-70c in the cup normally, bear in mind that a lot of folk like coffee on the cooler side (maybe just over 50c at the hotter end) as it's easier to pick out the flavours & natural sweetness. I never preheat cups for espresso, only for longer steeped brews where the coffee is around my preferred temp at time of pouring.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Let the coffee cool a little, taste it , what does it taste of?

Hot drinks disguise a plethora of taste defects ( bitterness for example )


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## Alan Kilroy (Dec 22, 2017)

OK, it seems that's I've sorted it. Happy man this morning.

After reading alot of threads on this forum re. Gaggia Classic and bitter shots, I, just 5 minutes ago







, swung my Compak K3 dial into the wind, coarser, significantly coarser. Weighed 13+grs of December roasted beans into my double PF, gave it 20secs on the scales timer (not alot I know) and presto.........completely different drink. It was really nice. Zero bitterness thank God. I'm in!!!

Wife, not really a coffee drinker, even gave it the thumbs up.

I had given up on the machine, ready to store it in the garage. Bought a new AP for the house even, the shots were so bad. Swore that my bout of upgradeitis was over, now it's possibly back on. Rocket here I come, hopefully.


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## steelartsa (Feb 22, 2018)

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See, I'm at a bit of a loss here everyone seems to be trying for the "god shot" (which is fine if that's your thing) and all the directions are for attaining the perfect espresso after which you can add water, milk, cocoa or whatever you like. But today I came across the term "lungi" which I'd sort of heard of in the distant past but not taken much notice of as my drink of choice is either long black or americano. And until recently I used to do this by putting water through the grounds. I was amazed to find that long black isn't made this way so changed my method. But, I was even more amazed to find that a lungi is made by doing this and that the added bitterness is part of it.

So, all in all I'm getting more and more confused by something that should be simple. And I'm gradually starting to come to the conclusion that if you already like what you're drinking then what is the fuss all about? Fair enough if you're making crap coffee then, yes, change your setup. But if one's little pressurised espresso machine already makes something fab, then is it a case of striving for diminishing returns? And how does one know when one has found the god-shot? Surely all you have found is something *you like* to drink? Case in point, many years ago driving to Spain via France I stopped for an early morning coffee. What I got at the time I hated as it was so strong and only 1/2 dozen sugars made it bearable. Now 30 years on I'd give my right arm for a coffee like that, my point being that it's a movable feast surely? We are not all the same and one person's god-shot might be another's poison? And tastes can, and do, change.

Any thoughts or am I totally wide of the mark?


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Lao Tzu said some wise stuff a while ago...



> The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.





> If you do not change direction, you might end up where you are heading.


Nuff said.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

steelartsa said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> See, I'm at a bit of a loss here everyone seems to be trying for the "god shot" (which is fine if that's your thing) and all the directions are for attaining the perfect espresso after which you can add water, milk, cocoa or whatever you like. But today I came across the term "lungi" which I'd sort of heard of in the distant past but not taken much notice of as my drink of choice is either long black or americano. And until recently I used to do this by putting water through the grounds. I was amazed to find that long black isn't made this way so changed my method. But, I was even more amazed to find that a lungi is made by doing this and that the added bitterness is part of it.
> ...


If you like a bitter lungo, then fine, but really there is no reason as to why it should be so. You could pull a normale just long enough to make it bitter than top that up with water to get to the same place.

Simplicity is precisely why people make Americanos & long blacks. Make the base espresso & make it consistently, then add milk, water, etc to get the size & style of drink to your taste, rather than be constantly changing grind to make longer & shorter shots.

We're all aiming to make drinks that suit our taste, knowing what you have done is the key to repeating it. If you know what you have done, then you can convey that to someone else for them to try too.

"God shot" is a term for accidentally stumbling upon a coffee that you made well. Make it well deliberately, then do it again & again (though there will often be subtle differences in taste between coffees made consistently).


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

I guess we are all here because we want to achieve something. Whether that's recreating a drink we remember from our honeymoon, or refining our chemical understanding of TDS/EY (which I have no idea about!) Or because of an intrinsic human yearning for "something better" which we are hoping to fill with coffee stuff.

There is absolutely no need to change if you are happy where you are (and indeed the forum is full of folk who have stopped, gone back down the equipment ladder or found nirvana with two flat rocks for grinding and a cupping bowl)

But chances are, if you think your set up or process could be improved, chances are it can.

Take me, I upped to a classic from a string of pressurised machines. The difference was immense. I then switched to a HX machine. The shots are not significantly better, but they are sufficiently better, easier to produce and more consistent, so a worthwhile upgrade. I've then made a sideways move to another HX... Because Shiny (and my machine was needing some work doing and I didn't know how... But that's another story!!)


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## steelartsa (Feb 22, 2018)

I didn't particularly like the bitterness but didn't think of my coffee as particularly bitter, just a bit of bite which I like. I was using pre ground Lavazza Rossa and was never happy after day 3 of opening the pack but, of course, was reluctant to chuck away a £3.50 pack of coffee and this happened over and over until I decided to grind my own beens - change number 1. Then finding that adding a double shot to hot water made a better (in my opinion) cup of coffee than running it through the grounds was change number 2 to make long black.

My point was that some people obviously like the slightly over extracted bitterness (hmm, perhaps that's too strong a term because it's not bitter, bitter as such) because the Italians even have a word for that style of coffee. I think you have hit the nail on the head when you say it's about repeatability when you find something you like. But when a noob hears "16gr in 32gr out," aren't they likely to think this is the ultimate formula and what they should be aiming for, rather than experimenting and maybe finding something they'd like better if they varied the formula bay a gram or two either way? Or am I over thinking things?

One of my hobbies is playing guitar and even though my ultimate guitar (which i'd have to win the lottery to be able to buy) sounds absolutely fabulous in the hands of a maestro, my playing would not do it justice and the actual guitar would not make what I play any better to an audience. Would owning it make me feel better? Hell yeah!!! But would spending 3x as much on a Froggy Bottom give me 3x the sound of my Taylor or Gibson? Definitely not! So I'm wondering if the same applies to espresso machines. I'm willing to bet that a coffee made in a £500 machine is as good as one made in a £2.5k machine. But a lot of the pleasure is the ritual of making the coffee in the expensive machine. There is nothing at all wrong with that if that's your thing; it's what makes the world go around. That being said, I am looking at upgrading my Dedica but I'm not in any hurry to do so because I like what it's producing so I don't feel an urgency. My better cup of coffee has been down to grinding my own beans and how I make it rather than the actual machine.

And please, don't think I'm trolling; I'm not. I just want to get into the psyche behind this hobby. I love my coffee so I want to be able to make consistent, good shots too. That's why I'm here, to learn. I just at times get the feeling that some folks are so hung up over the technical aspects and equipment that they miss the joy of the actual drink. After all, we've been drinking coffee for centuries and you can't kid me that we've only just started making consistently good coffee since the invention of the PID; if that were the case, every machine would have one and we would have all been drinking rubbish in the past. To me my Dedica makes great coffee, but I am interested to know if I can improve on it


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

steelartsa said:


> Then finding that adding a double shot to hot water made a better (in my opinion) cup of coffee than running it through the grounds was change number 2 to make long black.
> 
> My point was that some people obviously like the slightly over extracted bitterness (hmm, perhaps that's too strong a term because it's not bitter, bitter as such) because the Italians even have a word for that style of coffee. I think you have hit the nail on the head when you say it's about repeatability when you find something you like. But when a noob hears "16gr in 32gr out," aren't they likely to think this is the ultimate and what they should be aiming for, rather than experimenting and maybe finding something they'd like better if they varied the formula bay a gram or two either way? Or am I over thinking things?.


Re. long black/lungo. You'd pretty much have to confirm the coffee was over-extracted, even a lot of lungos probably aren't. Bitterness isn't solely due to over-extraction...it can be, but there are other causes. Making the long black gets you what you want, great, stick with it. But bare in mind that you are extracting the coffee, which stops when the shot does, then diluting it to make it weaker. With the lungo, you are both extracting & the bigger drink makes it weaker, both at the same time...it might be possible to make both methods taste pretty much the same if you ground coarse for the lungo...but, enjoy your coffee - you're not obliged to struggle with experiments 

16 in 32gr out - this is a brew ratio, it's 1:2. The brew ratio shouldn't really be affecting the flavour balance of your drink. It primarily affects the strength, because we adjust grind to get a balanced shot at the brew ratio we want, whether that is 1:02 or 1:14. It can change the flavour balance of the shot if you are trying to pull shots shorter than your grinder/prep will work properly at, then you might find yourself under-extracting & hitting sourness.

There is no specific ratio at which coffee tastes 'right', but your preference towards a certain strength might be easiest to hit at a given ratio.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

steelartsa said:


> But when a noob hears "16gr in 32gr out," aren't they likely to think this is the ultimate formula and what they should be aiming for, rather than experimenting and maybe finding something they'd like better if they varied the formula bay a gram or two either way? Or am I over thinking things?
> 
> ...
> 
> One of my hobbies is playing guitar


I suppose an analogy between coffee and guitar would be. Is it helpful to say to somebody who is learning to playing guitar, don't worry loads of people make sounds they like with it. I won't give you any specific recommendations for how to start. Just hit the strings and see if you like it.

I don't see anybody on here that "gets it", which is a bit nebulous but how I think of it, that says 'YOU MUST DO A 1:2 espresso or you will be drinking rubbish' but it's a starting point. It's easily communicable. I often see people saying adjust to taste, the issue is if you don't know what you've got right now and why it might not taste that good, then you won't be able to know what you adjust next time and what impact it has.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Re. 500 v. 2.5k setup: I do own both (Quickmill Retro 0835 at the office and Rocket Cellini/Mazzer Mini at home). No kidding, there is a biiig difference both in handling and consistency.

I'm not a very mathematical guy in my free time (got enough of that a work), so I hardly ever weigh my espressos. But when it comes to taste defects, you need a starting point or you simply get lost trying to find the cause. With all those variables, where do you start?

beans, degree of roast, degree of grind, weight/amount of grounds, distribution in basket, tamping technique, tamping pressure, type of water and hardness, water temp, water pressure, brew head temp, portafilter temp, basket type, cup temp, air pressure, air temp, relative humidity - those being the ones that I know have been named to be (more or less) likely to have an impact on the result...


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## steelartsa (Feb 22, 2018)

The analogy between coffee and learning guitar isn't quite right here but I think I get what you're trying to say. Someone learning guitar needs something that is playable firstly (that could equate to a pressurised machine I guess). Then there is a formula - the 3 chord trick - to learn, but once you have you can play hundreds of songs (that would equate to grinding the beans and the water/coffee ratio, perhaps). What won't make someone a better player, particularly a beginner, is spending £$€thousands on a guitar. The actual instrument is a very small part of it until you get good enough at playing. And even then there comes a point of diminishing returns. The more you pay (past a certain point) doesn't buy you a much better tone or easier playability; slightly better or more exotic wood perhaps, and more hand work that's all. In itself a £3000 guitar won't sound worse than a £7000 and the more expensive one will not sound more than 2x better, in actual fact it becomes very much subjective as we all perceive tone differently.

What I am trying to ascertain is will a correctly made coffee made in a £400 machine be worse than one made with a £2000 machine? Personally, I doubt it. From what I read it may give more flexibility and therefore produce a better white coffee but past a certain level does it become a matter of just enjoying the ritual and paraphernalia as well as the resulting brew. I'm not knocking that by the way, each to their own and to an extent I am the same. I enjoy grinding my beans, filling the basket and watching the resulting brew flow from the portafilter. I was considering a B2C machine but I actually enjoy my morning ritual of making coffee - hence I ended up here. But I don't want to continuously 'upgrade' my equipment so I'd like to find a machine that I'll be happy with for years rather than months if possible but I do realise it's not an exact science.


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## steelartsa (Feb 22, 2018)

Hasi said:


> Re. 500 v. 2.5k setup: I do own both (Quickmill Retro 0835 at the office and Rocket Cellini/Mazzer Mini at home). No kidding, there is a biiig difference both in handling and consistency.
> 
> I'm not a very mathematical guy in my free time (got enough of that a work), so I hardly ever weigh my espressos. But when it comes to taste defects, you need a starting point or you simply get lost trying to find the cause. With all those variables, where do you start?
> 
> beans, degree of roast, degree of grind, weight/amount of grounds, distribution in basket, tamping technique, tamping pressure, type of water and hardness, water temp, water pressure, brew head temp, portafilter temp, basket type, cup temp, air pressure, air temp, relative humidity - those being the ones that I know have been named to be (more or less) likely to have an impact on the result...


Wow, that is a lot of variables but I do agree on having some sort of starting point. So what exactly are the differences between your 2 setups? And is a drink made in one a lot worse/better than the other? Or do you get 2 nice but different coffees?


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

It's easier to consistently make good coffee on a more expensive machine... The tuning pegs don't keep slipping.

But yes it is diminishing returns. Probably £2000 would get you all you ever need. Unless you want to try and find the subtleties of tone. For example @MildredM gets noticeably different results from two different styles of high end grinder. Levers pull different tasting shots to pump machines. Pressure profiling machines add further complexity to a cup.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

steelartsa said:


> Wow, that is a lot of variables but I do agree on having some sort of starting point. So what exactly are the differences between your 2 setups? And is a drink made in one a lot worse/better than the other? Or do you get 2 nice but different coffees?


As Missy also pointed out, the biggest challenge with my office machine is to pull consistently nice coffees. Depending on the machine's internal heat cycle, water temp can vary widely (maybe my Quickmill is a special example because its group head as well as the portafilter are super lightweight and made of stainless steel, not brass - thus gaining and losing temp very quickly). The built-in grinder has a somewhat non-reliable timer, so if I wanted to improve cup quality I'd have to weigh every dose. It also empties excess water (from in between pump and group head) back into the tank which can lead to water that has been in contact with grounds at the shower screen being reused. When I figured it out I started to collect this in a separate vessel inside the tank... before it would give me a weird aftertaste every now and then.

With my home setup it is very mich the same every time I pull a shot. Therefore I can focus on more important, controllable variables!

But: just my two cents... each to their own


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