# Upgrade options



## Mike mc (Apr 10, 2012)

I'm thinking of upgrading my classic at some point this year to pair with my super jolly.i do like the look of the expobar brewtus and also considering the fracino cherub.but as someone who only drinks Milk based drinks and only use the machine at the weekend unless ive got a bit of time off would I benefit from the expobar.im guessing the pid control and pre infusion etc on the expobar would only really benefit someone who drinks straight espresso?

Any advice greatly appreciated


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

It's gotta be a no brainer surely? Brewtus.

And It'll give you an excuse to drink more coffee


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Mike the Sage DB is also well worth looking at, plus it has to be the easiest machine going to get perfect milk on, I've found that it's hard to mess that up unless you really try. Sorry to disagree about Brewtus being a no brainer Daren look what happened when Gary had both !!! It doesn't matter that you only drink milk based drinks Mike, the better the shot of espresso the better you drink will taste. One thing to remember is that of the machines you mention Brewtus is the smaller of the two I could have easily got one on my bench but wouldn't have been able to fit a Cherub or Heavenly due to the depth.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

That must have been some kind of a record of thread for the sage not being mentioned on a thread until then ....

At least a week ?


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## Mike mc (Apr 10, 2012)

Daren said:


> It's gotta be a no brainer surely? Brewtus.
> 
> And It'll give you an excuse to drink more coffee


I was under the impression that milk masks a lot of the espresso so wasnt sure of if I would benefit from the brewtus


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## Mike mc (Apr 10, 2012)

Charliej said:


> Mike the Sage DB is also well worth looking at, plus it has to be the easiest machine going to get perfect milk on, I've found that it's hard to mess that up unless you really try. Sorry to disagree about Brewtus being a no brainer Daren look what happened when Gary had both !!! It doesn't matter that you only drink milk based drinks Mike, the better the shot of espresso the better you drink will taste. One thing to remember is that of the machines you mention Brewtus is the smaller of the two I could have easily got one on my bench but wouldn't have been able to fit a Cherub or Heavenly due to the depth.


Thanks Charlie.i do like the look of the sage but to be honest if I'm spending that kind of money I would prefer something that's proven with a good track record.the sage is still new on the market at the mo and no ones had one running daily for a few years.i will give it some serious thought as its ease of use appeals


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mike mc said:


> I was under the impression that milk masks a lot of the espresso so wasnt sure of if I would benefit from the brewtus


Good espresso = good mill drinks

Just coz you drink milk drinks doesn't mean you shouldn't try and make the best espresso you can to go in them !


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## Mike mc (Apr 10, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Good espresso = good mill drinks
> 
> Just coz you drink milk drinks doesn't mean you shouldn't try and make the best espresso you can to go in them !


You are all bad influences lol now ive got to spend 1200 instead of 600


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Mike mc said:


> Thanks Charlie.i do like the look of the sage but to be honest if I'm spending that kind of money I would prefer something that's proven with a good track record.the sage is still new on the market at the mo and no ones had one running daily for a few years.i will give it some serious thought as its ease of use appeals


Many Australians have had it's predecessor running daily for several years in far harsher environmental conditions than us, as I have kept saying Breville have quite a long track record in espresso machines in Australia, way longer than Rocket have been a company even, if you bought one from JL for £28 extra you end up with a 5 year warranty, that's peace of mind, even the fact that as standard they have a 2 year warranty says they're happy with the quality and stand by it.


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Charliej said:


> Sorry to disagree about Brewtus being a no brainer Daren


? The OP asked which machine - Cherub or Brewtus. The answer to that question is Brewtus (no brainer!)

I can't see him asking for any opinion on Sage but I could trust you to give that advice


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Mike mc said:


> I was under the impression that milk masks a lot of the espresso so wasnt sure of if I would benefit from the brewtus


Milk can hide a certain amount, but I advocate you should make the best espresso you can as it will make for the best coffee (with or without milk). Why would you want to settle for less especially when spending this amount of money?


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## Jon V (Feb 24, 2014)

Daren said:


> ? The OP asked which machine - Cherub or Brewtus. The answer to that question is Brewtus (no brainer!)


Daren,

As someone looking to buy a cherub but wondering if the upgrade to brewtus is worthwhile, I'm interested why you say that?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mike mc said:


> You are all bad influences lol now ive got to spend 1200 instead of 600


Spend 600 now then sell your machine for 400 and buy a 1200 machine in six months....just cut to the chase


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Spend 600 now then sell your machine for 400 and buy a 1200 machine in six months....just cut to the chase


Here speaks a voice of experience, ignore it at your peril !!!!!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

six months ago the starter setup was a classic and a mignon.....now it's an L1 and an EK43


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Absolutely out my trumpet.


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Jon V said:


> Daren,
> 
> As someone looking to buy a cherub but wondering if the upgrade to brewtus is worthwhile, I'm interested why you say that?


Have a nose at this thread > http:// http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=13067

I don't own either machine however I have played on both (if you haven't it's worth doing - if you can get yourself to Bella Barista they have loads of machines you can try). The Brewtus will stop the upgrade itch that the Cherub might leave you with.


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## Mike mc (Apr 10, 2012)

Daren said:


> Milk can hide a certain amount, but I advocate you should make the best espresso you can as it will make for the best coffee (with or without milk). Why would you want to settle for less especially when spending this amount of money?


I was initially under the impression that milk masks a lot of the flavours etc hence me asking if I would see a considerable difference in the 2 machines as I only drink milk based.if I can get away with saving 600 quid then of course I would but the general consensus from you guys is that there will be a noticeable difference.i may aswell save the extra up and buy the better machine

Plus the bonus of the expobar is it will stop the mrs whinging as the cherub is a lot bigger


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Milk can mask some flavours but not all. Do you like instant coffee with loads of milk? I suspect not and the reason will be coffee is crap. Scale this up as your pallet develops and you can notice subtle differences between decent home machines.

Your right is saying £600 is a lot of money to think about though - I suppose it comes down to how obsessive you are in that search for the perfect cup of coffee (be it milk based or otherwise)


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## Mike mc (Apr 10, 2012)

Daren said:


> Milk can mask some flavours but not all. Do you like instant coffee with loads of milk? I suspect not and the reason will be coffee is crap. Scale this up as your pallet develops and you can notice subtle differences between decent home machines.
> 
> Your right is saying £600 is a lot of money to think about though - I suppose it comes down to how obsessive you are in that search for the perfect cup of coffee (be it milk based or otherwise)


I wouldn't say I'm obsessive yet lol.but how ive progressed from a cafetiere and buying pre ground to where I'm at now.its probly only a matter of time.i told myself when buying the classic and rocky they will do me.the rocky has been demoted to brewed and now using a super jolly with the classic


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Ha ha - sounds very familiar! (and borderline obsessive







)I suspect you will always wonder what your missing if you go for the Cherub. It will be nagging away at the back of your mind.

Where are you located? I wonder if there is somewhere you can go to judge for yourself? It's a substantial investment.


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Also I'm not quite sure Gary's choice would have been the same if he had not been comparing a brand new Sage at an awesome price due to testing it vs his older Brewtus which was a few years old. The choice would only not qualify for bias if he was purchasing a machine a full retail and both being brand new. Yes the sage was comparable on performance but it was old vs new. A no brainer surely ;-)


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

To be honest Mike, unless you're going double boiler and PID; the Cherub will produce incredible results for the money saved vs the more expensive single boiler shiny Rockets etc. It's all whether you think you'll go Rocket (only using as example) later on or not. If you think you will, then no point having a stop-gap in my opinion.


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

As a final pitch in this thread, I would also add if you only drink milky drinks, then yeah you're right... pre infusion and PID excellence not needed as much as milk hides all sorts of error variance. If you ask me (and I've had both Cherub and Brewtus) I would say if you only drink milky drinks, you can produce equal quality flat whites, cappus, latte's on the cherub than with the brewtus. It's just a matter of timing the pre-flush. The cherub is an awesome machine for the saving. Espresso and ristrettos etc are night and day however. The brewtus is a class act with these.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

poona said:


> Also I'm not quite sure Gary's choice would have been the same if he had not been comparing a brand new Sage at an awesome price due to testing it vs his older Brewtus which was a few years old. The choice would only not qualify for bias if he was purchasing a machine a full retail and both being brand new. Yes the sage was comparable on performance but it was old vs new. A no brainer surely ;-)


It's was you guys that campaigned for Gary to test one in direct comparison to a Brewtus, he could have easily turned round and sold the Sage, after all if properly looked after there isn't any real difference between a brand new one and Gary's slighter older one. The telling thing is neither of us have kept the grinder.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Recall Gary saying at the Brum crawl, you two got five years warranty from Sage for agreeing to be field testers when you took up the option to buy? If that's correct, a machine with a five year guarantee is a no brainer - is that available to all Sage purchasers?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Probably a bit more demand for a pre owned brewtus than a sage


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

Sorry to come late to this, if you are drinking only milk drinks and wish to make excellent over very good milk drinks. PID would be useful in order to be extracting the coffee at a given variable then steaming milk and combining to make an exceptional flat white for example.

This is obviously where the milk is not being used to 'hide' anything rather accentuate a fantastic espresso. Over time should your taste change and then develop a taste for espresso then you won't need to upgrade again should you feel the urge too.

I made the mistake of buying the machine that would 'do what I wanted it to' over the machine I wanted, which does things better as a result I made a loss on the Oscar and upgraded within weeks of getting the machine in the first place.

The cherub is a capable machine but if it was me I'd go with the one that would leave me the least chance of wanting to upgrade in the near future


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## Flibster (Aug 15, 2010)

I do wish the Sage was around the same price point as it is on the continent. Even at RRP it's just under £1k. Amazon.de has them for around £850 which is an astonishing difference.

Can't say I'm over surprised at the price in the UK though.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Agree on price , but this debate on sage / Breville prices differences has been done to death previously on other threads.

It's a valid point but I doubt will change in the uk ever. It's the price it is ,as is the brewtus .

If either machine was £400 cheaper it would be the better value option

But back on track..... Try the machines out mike.

Where abouts are you . As the may be some owners near you happy to oblige .


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

If the sage is really just under £1k it makes the cherub, at around £600-650 really compelling value. Very very solid construction, components and excellent thermal stability. I imagine the cherub would batter the sage in a steam off. Obviously PID and pre-infusion on sage but I'd take thermosyphon over those things.


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## Mike mc (Apr 10, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Agree on price , but this debate on sage / Breville prices differences has been done to death previously on other threads.
> 
> It's a valid point but I doubt will change in the uk ever. It's the price it is ,as is the brewtus .
> 
> ...


I'm in manchester.charlie offered a while ago to show me the sage


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

The offer is still there Mike, just drop me a PM to arrange it.

@Fatboyslim electrically heated groups aren't that uncommon and with PID control for that as well as the boiler and pre heating the brew boiler water to 80C and PID brew boiler control should be a lot more stable than a thermosyphon, and a few seconds difference in steaming for the controlled steaming and ease of producing micro foamed milk on the Sage over the Cherub would win for me anytime, besides it's about the results of the espresso in the cup that really matters.

I honestly don't get this mania for saying that just because something isn't in a stainless steel box it's not solidly built, after all how often do most of us pick up and move our machines around, and even if we do , we do it very carefully anyway.

As regards the price difference, even if the Sage were just under 1k, the difference in what it can do vs the Cherub would win for me anytime, plus the front fill water tank is far more convenient.

@ Patrick, yes myself and Gary got a 5 year warranty, the Sage comes with a 2 year warranty as standard, this to me demonstrates confidence in a product from the makers, if you buy from John Lewis you can get an extra 3 years warranty for £28, I don't know what the situation is from any other vendor. How many other machines comes with even a 2 year warranty as standard?

@ Flibster I believe that the version on sale via Amazon.DE is the older 900XL not the 920XL, one major difference here is the easily accessed drain valves for descaling, plus the automated descaling program.


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## Yes Row (Jan 23, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> six months ago the starter setup was a classic and a mignon.....now it's an L1 and an EK43


Ha, it seems to be heading that way!


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Charliej said:


> The offer is still there Mike, just drop me a PM to arrange it.
> 
> @Fatboyslim electrically heated groups aren't that uncommon and with PID control for that as well as the boiler and pre heating the brew boiler water to 80C and PID brew boiler control should be a lot more stable than a thermosyphon, and a few seconds difference in steaming for the controlled steaming and ease of producing micro foamed milk on the Sage over the Cherub would win for me anytime, besides it's about the results of the espresso in the cup that really matters.
> 
> ...


OK if you have £400 just lying around doing nothing then the sage wins but the price difference is huge and the technological differences don't merit the extra cost. More to go wrong? We won't all be getting 5 year warranties. I compare my shots of espresso from the cherub to shots from cynessos and LM and there isn't enough of a difference to warrant any price difference. But just my opinion.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

fatboyslim said:


> OK if you have £400 just lying around doing nothing then the sage wins but the price difference is huge and the technological differences don't merit the extra cost. More to go wrong? We won't all be getting 5 year warranties. I compare my shots of espresso from the cherub to shots from cynessos and LM and there isn't enough of a difference to warrant any price difference. But just my opinion.


Edit: also we're both obviously bias so are comments are worthless.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I don't get this bit about the technology in it will go wrong, nothing in it technology wise is new, just new at this price point, flow control, PID control, timer control etc etc are all very mature technologies and surely it will come as no surprise that whatever you pay for the tech it WILL have Chinese sourced components inside it as they are one of the few countries that still allow some of the more potentially hazardous to the environment methods used to produce some electronic components.

If any company whatever they make and whoever they are are prepared to put a 2 year standard warranty on their products it says that they don't expect a high failure rate, and for an extra £28 , which is peanuts, John Lewis will sell you an extra 3 years warranty which is a no brainer. People seem eager to see this Vesuvius machine from a little known company and I am yet to see any criticism of it's reliability before people have even seen one, or is this because it comes in a stainless steel box? We read on here often enough about peoples woes with all types of machine, mainly because they come here seeking help, most of this is user error of one sort or another Fracino users aren't immune to this, what we hardly ever hear from are satisfied users, what we do see, however, is people moving on from their Fracino machine quite a lot, and by the time they have bought their upgrade have overall spent more than it would have cost to just buy the machine you really wanted 1st time round, most times we see a Cherub sold they go for ~£350 so a £300 loss plus the cost of the new machine, lets say this is £1200 so an extra ~£850 needs to be found on top of your sale price to upgrade, plus the £300 loss from the Cherub, buy once cry once.


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## Yes Row (Jan 23, 2013)

Cherub user here and perfectly happy. It is human nature to moan/ complain when not satisfied and the reverse when happy


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## Mike mc (Apr 10, 2012)

All the cherub owners can I ask how long you have all had the machines and as a few have stated yous seem happy with the machine(which is making me consider the cherub to be honest)the other poster who said he can't tell the difference between shots on the cherub and better machine makes me consider the cherub again.lol decisions decisions decisions

I think one of he main reasons of not wanting to shell out 1200 is I don't think my pallete is well developed.maybe that will improve with time thou


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## Yes Row (Jan 23, 2013)

Had mine approx 1 year and it has not missed a beat ( touchwood!)

Looks good and produced good coffee IMHO


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

Can do you a cracking deal on a Cherub - just give me a shout if you are interested!

Andy


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## Jon V (Feb 24, 2014)

I'm weighing up the Cherub and the Brewtus for an imminent purchase and these are the main differences I know about that are relevant to me:


Brewtus' DB & PID means temperature can be set externally and after a small flush will be hit consistently. Cherub temp is adjusted by setting pressurestat internally, may need a longer cooling flush, has a less predictable starting brew temperature and may be less stable through the shot?

Brewtus espresso tastes better according to some who have owned both. Not sure whether this is because of the above point alone or if there are other reasons contributing.

Brewtus has a smaller footprint (26 vs 36 cm wide and a bit less deep). It's taller though.

Cherub is easier to descale. Not sure of details here but both Brewtus boilers both boilers need to be flushed and this is harder / slower on the brew boiler?

Arguments exist about whether water goes stale in the large dedicated brew boiler.

Brewtus allows control of preinfusion - Though I think this only works properly on the plumbed rotary pump version?

Brewtus quicker to warm up? Can anyone give a timescale for this? Apparently cherub benefits from a full hour.

Brewtus' steam boiler can be turned off and boilers are insulated so should be less power hungry if you don't need to steam.

Cherub steaming is stronger by default (4 vs 1 hole steam tip, though this can be changed on either). Cherub steaming maybe stronger overall because of its larger boiler?

Cherub has a smaller / fiddlier drip tray.

Brewtus maybe has more to go wrong with PID & two boilers.

Brewtus is ~£400 more expensive


What am I missing?


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## Mike mc (Apr 10, 2012)

Thought I would update and let everyone know I have decided to go for the expobar dual boiler later in the year.as I had visions of me selling the cherub 6 months down the line.

Andy I will be in contact when ready to buy.sorry for not proceeding with the cherub order after asking loads of questions.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Thinking ahead to avoid upgradeitis - nice one.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

At the Price of the current cherubs , good idea.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> At the Price of the current cherubs , good idea.


Completely agree, doesn't make good economic sense now.


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## Mike mc (Apr 10, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> At the Price of the current cherubs , good idea.


I can't see the increase doing them any favours to be honest as a dual boiler with a smaller footprint and pid isn't a great deal more


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## Mike mc (Apr 10, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Thinking ahead to avoid upgradeitis - nice one.


Hopefully trying to save money in the long run.heres hoping I won't want an L1 further down the line.

Already thinking of upgrading the super jolly to a major after the brewtus purchase


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

No worries Mike - it's a lot of money for anyone to spend so you have to be sure you are getting the right machine for you! I'll always give the best price I can for Forum members!



Mike mc said:


> Thought I would update and let everyone know I have decided to go for the expobar dual boiler later in the year.as I had visions of me selling the cherub 6 months down the line.
> 
> Andy I will be in contact when ready to buy.sorry for not proceeding with the cherub order after asking loads of questions.


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## Mike mc (Apr 10, 2012)

coffeebean said:


> No worries Mike - it's a lot of money for anyone to spend so you have to be sure you are getting the right machine for you! I'll always give the best price I can for Forum members!


Cheers mate.you will be my first port of call


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I don't know why people are upgrading from a Cherub so quickly. They probably don't know how to get the best out of it.

Its an absolute beast and I wouldn't upgrade to another machine. I'd just spend any upgrade money purely on a grinder....such as EK43 or Compak K10.

It's completely faultless (except that it takes ~30 minutes to get to temperature and the sage dual boiler takes 3 minutes!) in my opinion and I've owned one for 2 years.

Its your money though. I felt happy supporting English manufacturing as well but perhaps that's not your thing.


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## Mike mc (Apr 10, 2012)

fatboyslim said:


> I don't know why people are upgrading from a Cherub so quickly. They probably don't know how to get the best out of it.
> 
> Its an absolute beast and I wouldn't upgrade to another machine. I'd just spend any upgrade money purely on a grinder....such as EK43 or Compak K10.
> 
> ...


I would happily support English manufacturing if they were providing the same features as the machine I want.

Can't help but think if the cherubs are so good why do people sell them on quicker.

I didn't want to be one of those people hence me not going ahead with an order.and now the price has gone up 150 quid theres no chance is buy it


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Price has gone up £150?!?!? Does that mean they retail at £750 or £800? Fracino may have just priced themselves out of the market (a bit like Sage...)

I felt £600-650 was a sweet spot for the Cherub, offering top-end components for a good price.

You might be right, maybe I wouldn't have been so keen on the Cherub at that price.


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## Mike mc (Apr 10, 2012)

Can't remember the exact figure but around the 800 mark.possibly get it cheaper out of a forum sponsor.cheapest I can see is 793 delivered


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