# Which Machine



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Well....I'm still undecided on my next machine choice.

To begin with theres the question of lever or pump?

Plus for the pump is that it removes a variable for the espresso making process (of which they are loads already).

However I do like the levers, I tend to drink more non milk based drinks and drink on average 2 coffees a day. La Pavoni machines look really good IMO too and fit the bill.

I do like the 58mm basket which I don't think la Pavoni do.

If I am going down the pump route, my next logical step would be a HX, but I know so many people who upgrade very quickly from a HX to a dual boiler or bigger machines.

Any suggestions on my options I could go down for someone who drinks 2-3 coffees a day mainly without milk (but could get into milk if I get better steaming)









All suggestions welcome.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

You know my thoughts on this subject .....


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

Mrboots2u said:


> You know my thoughts on this subject .....


Which I agree with!!!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Let me see, lever, 58mm portafilter, plenty of steam, stick in the gaggia family and get yourself an Achilles.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Let me see, lever, 58mm portafilter, plenty of steam, stick in the gaggia family and get yourself an Achilles.


Bingo ..............


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Do they still make the Achilles?

It's a beautiful looking machine.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Unfortunately not but some lucky people have a spare one!!


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Unfortunately not but some lucky people have a spare one!!


Here he goes.... Is it a bird?, Is it a plane? NO - IT'S SUPER ENABLER


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Daren said:


> Here he goes.... Is it a bird?, Is it a plane? NO - IT'S SUPER ENABLER


Ha ha ha very funny.....but also very true.







excellent.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Ha ha ha very funny.....but also very true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Buy it ,,you know it makes sense......


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Buy it ,,you know it makes sense......


That makes you his sidekick Robin


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

What's your budget anyway Urbs? I take it your not worried about new?

Also - one for Dave... does the Achille need a cooling flush? I'm sure I read that on another forum (shoot me down now)


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

It is an hx so yes dear daren


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> It is an hx so yes dear daren


It's a HX dear Daren, dear Daren, dear Daren....

If your mainly an espresso drinker I'd struggle to see another HX that would pull as sweet a shot as this , in this price bracket that available....

There aren't as many cherubs , or heavenlys coming up recently and this would give you a different sweeter shot to say a oscar ....

And it looks cool ...


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Daren said:


> What's your budget anyway Urbs? I take it your not worried about new?
> 
> Also - one for Dave... does the Achille need a cooling flush? I'm sure I read that on another forum (shoot me down now)


I've suppose I've got about £500 plus whatever I get for the Classic. Although the new burr carrier and burrs has dented this slightly.

The Achilles would come in under budget on this.

The debate is whether I save up a bit more and get something better. Or go down the pump route.

Happy with the used route from a good source.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok and how long would you be happy to wait and what would be your upper limit .....

Trying to get a picture of whether something like the new BB lever , strega or rockets would interest you or not....

Well bought Achille would hold its value and give you a lever to try , if you sold it on i doubt it would depreciate much...


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm currently considering the purchase of someones spare Achille if it will fit in the space I have left, as I struggled to think of another "affordable" more user friendly lever machine short of a Lusso or Elektra.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

You might need to consider it a bit more quickly then .....with the cut and thrust of the forum these things don't hang around for long...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Charlie, buy a Caravel. They are far superior to the Achille in my humble, plus, if you want milk, turn the Paxo on and a few seconds later, voila!


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Charlie, buy a Caravel. They are far superior to the Achille in my humble, plus, if you want milk, turn the Paxo on and a few seconds later, voila!


Already got 58mm baskets and tampers so wouldn't need to buy any more with an Achille, plus I want a machine I can just leave on and use when I want.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I've suppose I've got about £500 plus whatever I get for the Classic. Although the new burr carrier and burrs has dented this slightly.
> 
> The Achilles would come in under budget on this.
> 
> *The debate is whether I save up a bit more and get something better. Or go down the pump route. *


Well I just highlighted something, because it's quite telling. You definitely need to get exactly what you want and not worry too much about the cost (i'm not saying go for a 5k machine obviously). If you don't, from your comment, I feel fairly certain you would be on the upgrade route again within 2 years.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> Well I just highlighted something, because it's quite telling. You definitely need to get exactly what you want and not worry too much about the cost (i'm not saying go for a 5k machine obviously). If you don't, from your comment, I feel fairly certain you would be on the upgrade route again within 2 years.


Agree , but well bought second hand can be like renting if When you sell it on it don't loose any money six months later..

Depends if you wanna get the end game machine ( does such a thing exist... ) or take smaller steps up .

Plus i think you should spend £5k.... go nuts , it would be funny


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Plus i think you should spend £5k.... go nuts , it would be funny


LOL.....Boots.......you're a bad bad influence.... and there's about 10% of my brain that whole heartedly agrees with you.

Unfortunately the other 90% is owned by the bank....it would be funny though.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Clive get yourself entered in CoffeeJohnny's raffle for his Musica.


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## Titch (Mar 26, 2014)

been reading this post with interest thank you for all the suggestions you gave the OP

and the raffle is so tempting, just need to remember my bank logins


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Thanks all for the advice. I over took a Fracino van on the motorway this evening.....was it a sign?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Thanks all for the advice. I over took a Fracino van on the motorway this evening.....was it a sign?


 Yes it probably had the L3 in the back of it.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

B*gger....I should have forced it onto the hard shoulder!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> Well I just highlighted something, because it's quite telling. You definitely need to get exactly what you want and not worry too much about the cost (i'm not saying go for a 5k machine obviously). If you don't, from your comment, I feel fairly certain you would be on the upgrade route again within 2 years.


Thanks for the advice Davecuk, on the save up option are there any particular machines that you'd recommend I look at for a non milk base drinker in the main?.... Could be converted


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Thanks for the advice Davecuk, on the save up option are there any particular machines that you'd recommend I look at for a non milk base drinker in the main?.... Could be converted


I rarely have milk drinks, my wife is the one who tends to go for them, but not that many. however, don't let whether your a milk drinker or not lead your decision. Things change in your life and ideas change with machines. many manufacturers years ago didn't bother making Dual boiler machines, now almost all do. The high end single boiler prosumer offering has pretty much gone, a few machines like the isomac Zaffiro are left.

Now here it might be Heresy, but I also see the HX machines going the same way...they simply don't make design sense in our modern world. Sure they're a little cheaper to build, but you have this awfully hot 126C steam/hot water boiler running all the time, using a Heat exchanger to heat the water for the brew group. it's all a bit "make do and mend". The Dual Boiler design is the logical step in producing energy efficient, thermally stable machines able to produce steam and hot water when required. importantly though that very high temperature side and the much higher temperatures the group runs at are eliminated, the steam boiler can be switched off when not required and many components last much, much longer.

Quality spring lever machines have fared a little better in terms of their inherently simple technology which doesn't really date, because there is no other way to do it well, and those that have tried with pumped systems to the group have usually fallen or will fall by the wayside. All machines are a compromise, The HX pumped system is one compromise, the lever system is another, it runs hot as does an HX, but it's a lot simpler inside. The pressure curve is largely serendipity, but does seem to work better than a steady 9 bar, the pumped 9 bar is a good average. both systems lack the ability to dictate with some reliability and repeatability the temperature of a shot (1 of the many factors in producing good espresso and espresso based drinks). One of the disadvantages of a lever is of course the fact there is a lever, which can make it difficult to put the machine in some kitchens, or difficult for some people to use.

Dual boiler machines give you this stability and repeatibility at different temperatures, allow the steam boiler to be independent of the brew boiler, but still suffer the 9 bar pressure average they need to run at. So what you gain in temperature you might lose in pressure. However they are no harder to site than any other HX or single boiler machines.

Lastly you have the dual boiler pressure profiling systems, like the Vesuvius...I suppose the next logical evolution in espresso machines. No reason why they can't simulate and move beyond lever profiles, to do things a lever cannot do, on a repeatable basis, that may, or may not benefit the shot. They have temperature stability and repeatability.

So milk/no milk...relatively unimportant.

If you want a lever...go get one. If you want a Dual boiler....go get one, this will all be a matter of personal preference and the kitchen you have. It's also swings and roundabouts for shot quality, what you lose with one can be gained with the other and vice versa.

If you want the next generation of machines like the Vesuvius....dig deep and wait until end June or early July.


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## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

Great reply Davecuk


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Given im a guessing the OP budget is in new la pav or used HX territory ( £3-500?)

And is looking for something more stable or easier to use than a Gaggia classic

Then what machine would you then recommend Dave ?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

£700 seems to be about the bottom end for a dual boiler from recent sales on here?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

£750'would have got you the non plummable brewt ....not seen anything else got that low for a while ( on sales thread that is ) .


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Thanks DavecUK for the advice. I think a Vesuvius might be outside my budget.

I was looking at spending £500 on a used machine, but looking at saving up a bit more and aiming for 700-£800 mark.


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