# The long black.. is it a thing or is it not?



## PeterL (Aug 5, 2015)

As an ex-pat antipodean that has only known southern hemisphere coffee I grew up with the long black being a thing always.

Then came the flat white and onwards however black and long was pre-history.

And then moving to the UK came the Americano, a drink that seems to my poor pallet prone to making a bitter coffee and yet for reasons I don't understand I am widely treated with derision when I order what was recently summed up as 'an over-drawn espresso'. I was horrified when people started pouring water into my espresso and I am curious to know if people see this happening often.

- Can some one please set me right, water in first then overdraw?

- Why do I perceive adding hot fresh water being prone to bittering the drink?

- Is this a common coffee crime in the UK or that the Amreicano expects such poor handling?

Cheers,

Peter


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

A lot of places would indeed just keep on pulling, making bitter horrid drink, no adding water before or after makes little difference, a long black is an americano from a shop that probably is going to add hot water to a shot either way and it's seen as a good way to distance from that old school thing.

coffee collective call it an americano and they skim the crema off before adding water, it makes quite a large difference.

same as a flat white really, no real definition - take it as it comes and make it how you like it yourself..


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

My understanding is that an Americano is hot water added to an Espresso and a long black is an Espresso added to hot water. A long continuous pull is a Lungo. But what do I know?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Rob666 said:


> My understanding is that an Americano is hot water added to an Espresso and a long black is an Espresso added to hot water. A long continuous pull is a Lungo. But what do I know?


This ^


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## PeterL (Aug 5, 2015)

Rob666 said:


> My understanding is that an Americano is hot water added to an Espresso and a long black is an Espresso added to hot water. A long continuous pull is a Lungo. But what do I know?


Thanks for the confirmations!

So why is a lungo treated with scorn when an Americano is guaranteed to make the worst of any brew?


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

The Long Black as far as I'm aware espresso and hot water I make it by drawing the espresso on top of the water thus leaving a Crema on top of the drink.

A continous flush of water through the puck is horrendous. try splitting the shot as you pull it in to 4 and you will see with the fourth part it is purely bitter horrid nastiness.

Anyhow that's my opinon for what it's worth


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

I think anybody who thinks they have a solid definition hasn't been to enough coffee shops...


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

robashton said:


> I think anybody who thinks they have a solid definition hasn't been to enough coffee shops...


The definition seems to be generally accepted on the interwebs at least, whether shops stick to it is another thing entirely.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

PeterL said:


> Thanks for the confirmations!
> 
> So why is a lungo treated with scorn when an Americano is guaranteed to make the worst of any brew?


Adding water can allow you to dilute and taste a coffee. Often a shots strength may preclude brain processing that flavours ....


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

Rob666 said:


> My understanding is that an Americano is hot water added to an Espresso and a long black is an Espresso added to hot water. A long continuous pull is a Lungo. But what do I know?


+1 I don't understand why but when you add the hot water to the espresso it tastes bitter but float the espresso on top of the hot water and it is a whole new and much tastier thing. I've tried it on a blind test and scored 3 out of 3 for being able to pick out which was which. Maybe the boffins can explain the chemistry.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

ridland said:


> +1 I don't understand why but when you add the hot water to the espresso it tastes bitter but float the espresso on top of the hot water and it is a whole new and much tastier thing. I've tried it on a blind test and scored 3 out of 3 for being able to pick out which was which. Maybe the boffins can explain the chemistry.


Their was another thread recently where Glenn explained. It was something like pouring the water onto the espresso breaks up the structure where as pouring espresso on top doesn't do that to the same extent.

Related, I don't know how people boil there water but Gwilym Davies recently said (but could be a long held view) that he always uses a separate kettle/hot water source and not the water from the espresso machine, as that always tastes worse...


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jlarkin said:


> Their was another thread recently where Glenn explained. It was something like pouring the water onto the espresso breaks up the structure where as pouring espresso on top doesn't do that to the same extent.


I would also guess that temperature would come into play. If you pour an espresso into a big cup it will cool very quickly even if pre-heated due to the surface area exposed. If you reverse it then the water will help the espresso maintain temperature.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

robashton said:


> I think anybody who thinks they have a solid definition hasn't been to enough coffee shops...


Yeah, I'd take Starbucks word for it over Wikipedia any day


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

PeterL said:


> Thanks for the confirmations!
> 
> So why is a lungo treated with scorn when an Americano is guaranteed to make the worst of any brew?


A long black/Americano is a drink where the espresso has been (in theory) pulled to a tasty brew ratio and you are simply diluting the overall flavour which can create a really tasty drink. I once had an Americano from Costa (back in the day, honest...) that was about 500ml and the entire drink came through the double shot in the portafilter!!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If I asked for either, and got hot water + a decent espresso added to the cup in any order, I wouldn't grumble


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> If I asked for either, and got hot water + a decent espresso added to the cup in any order, I wouldn't grumble


Have you tried it both ways though (genuine question) + (ooooh matron)? I haven't yet but keep meaning to.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I mainly drink shot then water and enjoy it very much but will try it the other way round shortly


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jlarkin said:


> Have you tried it both ways though (genuine question) + (ooooh matron)? I haven't yet but keep meaning to.


I have, there is a definite difference. Espresso into hot water is creamier. Water into espresso isn't as tasty imho.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

I prefer coffee into water once the crema has been removed, but that's realistically more like your water into coffee method.

americblack? Long American? Just saying...


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

risky said:


> The definition seems to be generally accepted on the interwebs at least, whether shops stick to it is another thing entirely.


They dont.


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> I have, there is a definite difference. Espresso into hot water is creamier. Water into espresso isn't as tasty imho.


Having tried it both ways I agree.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

robashton said:


> I prefer coffee into water once the crema has been removed, but that's realistically more like your water into coffee method.
> 
> americblack? Long American? Just saying...


Maybe a "Fussy American" is born? (I like that name a lot, even if I do say so myself)


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## PeterL (Aug 5, 2015)

jlarkin said:


> Maybe a "Fussy American" is born? (I like that name a lot, even if I do say so myself)


My mood would go more to 'Educated American', although for the life of me I don't know how everything they consume can be so sweet yet they make such awful bitter coffee


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

So, espresso onto water... But how much water is considered the right amount, at least for a starting point?


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## Wuyang (Mar 21, 2014)

I was watching this the other day..........


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## PeterL (Aug 5, 2015)

Wuyang said:


> I was watching this the other day..........


And the comments added below that video entirely prove my point, no damn clue to be had...


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

Mr O said:


> So, espresso onto water... But how much water is considered the right amount, at least for a starting point?


I use 70 grams for a lungo. 90 grams for Americano


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Mr O said:


> So, espresso onto water... But how much water is considered the right amount, at least for a starting point?


Isn't an Americano meant to be 50:50 water espresso?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Espresso then 120 or 150ml water in my hood.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

I love how you're all trying to define something that isn't definable









I mean - we can barely agree what an espresso is, or what water to use - and those are the only two ingredients...


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

I did say as a starting point, not a definate amount that will work with every bean, machine, grind, tamp etc etc.....


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

robashton said:


> I love how you're all trying to define something that isn't definable


Not defining it but our interpretation of it. Same as some flat whites are single shot 5oz, other double shot 6oz...most places do their riff on it, rather than saying 'this is it'.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Well here's my take.. with classic spro I like to do about a 30/70 split (so most shops), at home I'll do it about 50/50 because I've got longer shots..


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

So it's espresso and water. Long black/Americano/flat white/cappa just seems to give an agreement on the ingredients rather than how they're put together


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

robashton said:


> I mean - we can barely agree what an espresso is, or what water to use - and those are the only two ingredients...


hahahaha

I call my drinks what I think they are close to in some of the cafes I go to. However when I hit a new or some of the less frequent ones I immediately question if what I am calling my drink is the correct title at all. I do drink coffee though and better tan I used to though I am generally even more easily confused than Jeebsy.

Beans + water = coffee/confusion + milk = conundrum


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Dont google long black thing


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Dont google long black thing


You might get Lenny Kravitz..... ( this is a gif going round , don't look for it , its defo NSFW)


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> You might get Lenny Kravitz..... ( this is a gif going round , don't look for it , its defo NSFW)


And you might just aswell shout "DON"T HIT THE BIG RED BUTTON!"


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