# Reliability



## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

I'm going to start this by stating very clearly that I have no wish to start another argument on this front. I have searched the forums many times on this subject and have seen that most threads on this front end up flame-ridden.

I am considering a dual boiler, which looks to be a very capable machine for the money, certainly with a lot of bells and whistles and (most importantly right now) interest free credit...

So, the lack of E61 bothers me a little bit, but more pressing is the reliability issue.

However, as I was reading the threads it did occur to me that the machines have now been around for some time (even longer if you consider the aus market), and therefore without the avalanche of failure reports I would expect here if it was an issue, is this not now a solved problem?

I know there have been issues with the bean to cup varieties of this machine but I know from bitter experience how much more finickity bean to cup machines can be given the one at my work place.

Ok, no-one has got up to 10 years yet, which is kinda what I would expect the lifetime trouble free to be for a coffee machine, but given I only got to 5 with my Sylvia I am now wondering if that is somewhat hopeful, especially given I now know that certain other high end machines also suffer from issues, which given the price is far from ideal.

So yeah, going a little insane right now. Not entirely sure what to expect from this thread, but please don't flame too hard...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am not a Sage fan. By that, I mean would I buy one (I have and sent it back) and would I recommend one.....no. That said, they are very capable machines that offer a lot within the package. Their does seem to be a failure rate amongst them but when you consider how many they sell then that is not surprising.]

years ago, when a car was serviced, they left the old spark plugs and filters in the boot for you to inspect........

Now, you take your car to the garage and they plug a laptop in because of the reliance of electronic circuitry.

]We still have a choice with coffee machines, to buy a traditionally made machine which certainly has some electronics in it but not a total reliance, or we can go down the Sage route.

the only winner, is MR. Hindsight

Type must do whatever you feel is right then back your decision 100% and to hell with anyone else!


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

they are generally reliable ... yes you get reports of ones with leaking wands etc, but then in the numbers they sell, is it really that much ?

The issue you will have is how long with the machine be serviceable .. as you said it doesn't have an E61, which I would bet money on still being able to service in 20 years time.

But on the Sage, will you still be able to get the LCD display, the PCB, pump, grouphead parts, solenoids ? .. I expect in "n" years time that a sage coffee machine will look different to todays beasts and use different parts ..... but thats hindsight, I may be wrong

If you really really want a machine to stand the test of time, get the simplest one you can with the most common parts


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

UbiquitousPhoton said:


> Ok, no-one has got up to 10 years yet, which is kinda what I would expect the lifetime trouble free to be for a coffee machine, *but given I only got to 5 with my Sylvia* I am now wondering if that is somewhat hopeful


With your silvia failing was that not due to you PIDing it yourself and you are now having electrical issues with it ?


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> With your silvia failing was that not due to you PIDing it yourself and you are now having electrical issues with it ?


It is looking that way now, yes. With any luck I should be able to fix this, although still fingers crossed - when I wrote this post originally I wasn't so sure. This is one reason for looking for a machine *with* the bells and whistles, though - I don't really want to be modding again. I know there are issues with that particular model of Silvia, though (the heating element) so I'm not entirely sure what kind of lifespan I will *actually* get, hence considering upgrade if the repair costs go too high.


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## uberrich (Feb 10, 2016)

UbiquitousPhoton said:


> and (most importantly right now) interest free credit...


What's that about interest free credit?







Where are you seeing a Sage DB being offered with that nice little feature?


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

uberrich said:


> What's that about interest free credit?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Amazon offer it now:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/cobrandcard/marketing.html?ie=UTF8&ad=PAYMONHQP&inc=giluk14&plattr=PAYMONHQP&pr=giluk&ref_=PAYMONHQP

0% APR for 24 months on items over £999.99


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## Yes Row (Jan 23, 2013)

So do PayPal, via their credit card on £250 and above I think


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

@risky has it right - it was amazon I was looking at.

Remember, though that Amazon pretty much exempt themselves out of the the warranty process after about 40 days, pointing you are the manufacturer, but this shouldn't be too much problem.

I'm really conflicted - remembering this is Breville Aus / NZ who have quite a reputation making machines over there, I would actually be pretty surprised if they were not to support a machine they made for a reasonable amount of time, but then you add in the partner of Sage over here, and things get more complicated. I do wonder if it would be worth making some phone calls / sending some emails on this front.

Its definitely the marmite of coffee machines, put it that way!

Or perhaps I should just follow the path more trodden and get a Brewtus - this would take a great deal more saving however. Hopefully I can resurrect my silvia reasonably soon and quell the upgrade-itis for a little bit, but its definitely itching now


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

So ... I actually *rang* Sage support (shock horror) and talked to them about this.

They did confirm that they do retain parts for what they consider to be a reasonable lifespan and that they would hope the situation whereby a machine needs parts which are no longer manufactured would never happen, however if it did they would obviously deal with each issue on a case by case basis.

Oh, and they (sage) are a wholly owned subsidiary of Breville NZ, so the situation above is not really the case.

And now I'm swinging back the other way...


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

what is a reasonable lifespan ? .. reasonable to who ? 10 years ??


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

They seemed relatively happy talking in terms of 10 years, yes.

It did take a while to explain what I was actually talking about, I got an explanation about the servicing company (contract) which we already knew about, and an explanation that if a machine failed outside of warranty then that may not necessarily be a full price service, before I managed to communicate what I was actually talking about.

There was a lot of stress placed on 'the machine is made from quality components - it should not break down under normal circumstances' but they did basically say that even should they stop making the machine, this would not mean the end of parts.

This is an issue with a lot of machines to be quite honest - not all parts are stock parts that are going to be easily available until 3d printing becomes a glorious reality. We / I am potentially being way harsher on Sage / Breville NZ than I would be on someone like, say Rocket, but similar issues do occur with both manufacturers. This also *isn't* (despite what some people seem to think) Breville NZs first coffee machine - they have been competing for decades in a market that is way harsher and more discerning than the UK one when it comes to coffee.

That said, still nervous - but this is a lot of money whichever way you look at things and these sort of issues have to be taken into consideration.

Certainly, what we have heard of Sage /Breville Nz customer service in this country so far has been pretty good.


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## AMCD300 (Feb 11, 2016)

I have a DB and bought one after lots of research both on Sage and non-Sage (Breville, Gastroback and Solsis) brands. I went for the 920 variant as the drain ports for the boilers allowed it to be far more maintainable. As for reliability, and as an engineer, I accept that this issue can be down to manufacturing quality but also with relatively low-priced consumer goods we are subject to a whole lot of luck. Go on Amazon and read the horror stories for any machine, whatever the brand. Like you I wanted something better than 'basic' having knocked around with low-end gear and extremely manual items for years. I like the look, the operation and the results from my DB, although good beans, and repeatable technique is seeing more progress and better results. Granted, a 1000 Pound-plus DB is not as 'disposable' as a 200 pound item, but then a lot of people maintain their 200 pound machines at home. I am not sure if we will get to the point where we can service our Sage DBs or not.

Interest free is a good deal, although remember that Lakeland does a lifetime guarantee and other Sage users have found it to be very useful. Many Barista Express owners have had bad reliability but I think they have learnt from this now, and the DB 920 and Oracle are better built (arguably).

That's my 2-cents worth... Good luck on the choice.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

When I was looking at an upgrade from a HX I was looking at a Brewtus but a used Sage came up as a really good deal.

It's not a classic espresso machine looks wise. However shot consistency is excellent. It warms up in 5 mins and is really easy to clean / descale.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Plus aren't Sage machines supposed to be the dogs danglies for steaming milk?


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

About the milk, that was the general impression I got as well, yes (which would really help me, always been a bit crap with milk on my PID-ed sylvia). In fact a return to milk drinks being on the menu in general would be quite nice - its just not worth the faff with a single boiler, and the results were not all that great anyway







(I'm sure a lot of this comes down to my skillz, but...)

As far as I can tell, Lakeland no longer offer a lifetime warranty. There was another thread on here some way back on this subject, and certainly I can find no mention of it when deep scouring the lakeland website. When I'm next down there I could ask I guess. With both them and John Lewis though, the level of post purchase support you get should be good, but as mentioned previously, Sage/Breville are no slouch in the support department either (check some of the nz forums on this as well).


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## colb16 (Feb 22, 2016)

Didn't know that the Lakeland life-time warranty that they had is no longer available. Thats good to know as I was considering purchasing from them as well. As you say there is no mention on the website.


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

There is the small matter of reasonable lifetime under the sale of goods act '79 : full details here - http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/consumer-rights-refunds-exchange

Basically you have up to 6 years to complain. If you shop with someone like (say) John Lewis or Lakeland then you should be seen right. This contract is between you and the shop however, which is why I would rather avoid Amazon if at all possible, as they seem to think this does not apply to them.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

Lakeland warranty changed to "We're only happy when you're happy"

If you're not delighted with your purchase or our service, or find the same product elsewhere for less, please tell us so that we can put it right.

I would go for that along with the Sage 2 year warranty and you should be golden.

A good point to note is that service is done at your home. It is not back to base. If that is offered by any other brand I am unaware of that. Also, at least for the SDB, Sage is going by the spirit as opposed to the letter of the law. I had an o-ring failure a month out of warranty. They still came out to my home for no cost and replaced every o-ring in the unit. Unfortunately my flowmeter has become a bit of a worry. If set to dispense by time, it works fine. It set to dispense by volume, it cuts out once pre-infusion is done. They will be out tomorrow or Monday with a new flowmeter. Even if that was not fixed, it still works in manual mode without issue.

So while I am sure someone will pipe up to say I told you so, I have a unit that does everything a standard dual boiler does, plus adjustable pre-infusion which the standard E61 based units don't.

So let the naysayers have a go. Based upon my experience of the exemplary customer support from Sage (via Coffee Classics) I don't think I made a mistake; even with the niggles I have had lately.


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Thats actually pretty damn amazing tbh...

Let us know how you go with the flow meter, wontcha? (And best of luck with that)


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## AMCD300 (Feb 11, 2016)

@ridland - completely agree.


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

@Dallah - any news? How did it go?


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

I think Steve will be coming by on Friday to have a go at it.


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## RossT (Sep 13, 2014)

Hey

Ive had my dual boiler now for nearly a year and have had zero issues.

HOWEVER

I have experienced sage customer service and it was fantastic. To cut a long story short the handle on my portafilter got a small crack when I banged it on the knock box while half asleep. Brief e mail to sage, reply within a few hours, picture of damage and reciept, 48hours later a.new portafilter arrived. No arguments no charge for portage and the crack was clearly only cosmetic.

Pick a car and Google said car faults and there will be a load of people with problems regardless of the car, I think coffee machines are same....


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## RossT (Sep 13, 2014)

Also if you live on mainland UK you get the benefit of the white glove service and easier access to servicing, not so for Northern Ireland but I've no regrets.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

@UbiquitousPhoton Coffee Classics were fantastic once again. Problem solving went right up to the top with both the service engineer and the engineer's manager. They were trying to have a complete RCA and not just a part replacement, just to make sure it didn't happen again.

They replaced the flowmeter and everything is happy again. Steve (the engineer) told me that the flowmeter was a commercial grade part, so the fact it broke isn't down to the machine being crap or skimping with cheap parts. Sometimes parts just fail.

And once again, a complete service in my kitchen, out of warranty cost me how much? NOTHING. All free. Wonder if any of the shiny shiny Italian units would get that same level of service, let alone for free.

Also as far as availability of parts. There are some Sage specific parts, but for those I haven't had one failure. The only problems I have had was with industry standard parts like the flowmeter and o-rings. So I'm not too worked up about parts being unavailable. I have more faith in Sage being around in ten years than some of the smaller Italian manufacturers who only need one bad year of trading or one model with a huge design flaw to go out of business. Did anyone see Rossi/Brasilia going out of business? They had a substantial commercial install base world wide and that didn't save them


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