# Distribution technique for Mignon



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Could mignon owners post workflow description or videos on here?

I'm having channelling issues and I'd love to learn what works for others for this great little entry grinder.

I'm grinding in to pf with norvins funnel - works well.

Lots of clumps for me so I'm then stirring the grinds quite vigorously with a wooden skewer.

I'm then tapping pf quite hard on tamping mat mainly on bottom of basket as I have bottomless pf.

And then I tamp - reasonably firmly. So I'm not using any techniques to distribute as after pf tapping the grinds seemed to settled well. I tamp with basket sitting on the mat to ensure everything is level.

I'm pretty sure I'm getting channelling as even with super fine grind I'm getting really quick pours that go watery quickly. And in he cup it's going from sour to choking with no in between.

What yours mignon workflow, perhaps you've been through this?


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

I do the same work flow for the Sage grinder when using decaf - it's also a bit of a clumper. The only addition I've found works well is to nutate whilst tamping (simulate spinning coin) as this reaches the edges of the basket. Norvins funnel tends to leave a trench around the edge of the basket where the ridge sits in and this is where I've found channelling. Nutating gets rid of this. Give it a go - what's there to lose?


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Post a photo of both top and bottom of puck after you've knocked it out. That should help you and others understand what is going wrong.

Which baskets are you using and how much are you dosing in them?


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

I think the skewer with its single tip is not enough to stirr the grinds properly, perhaps try sourcing a small whisker. Also try tapping more gently, just to settle the coffee a bit.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

lake_m said:


> I do the same work flow for the Sage grinder when using decaf - it's also a bit of a clumper. The only addition I've found works well is to nutate whilst tamping (simulate spinning coin) as this reaches the edges of the basket. Norvins funnel tends to leave a trench around the edge of the basket where the ridge sits in and this is where I've found channelling. Nutating gets rid of this. Give it a go - what's there to lose?


Nice one lake_m I'll try it


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

DoubleShot said:


> Post a photo of both top and bottom of puck after you've knocked it out. That should help you and others understand what is going wrong.
> 
> Which baskets are you using and how much are you dosing in them?


Good idea, will do in the morning. Wife taking the kids out so I'll have the house to myself - some serious coffee nerding may ensue

I'm using vst 18g and dosing 18g


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Stanic said:


> I think the skewer with its single tip is not enough to stirr the grinds properly, perhaps try sourcing a small whisker. Also try tapping more gently, just to settle the coffee a bit.


Great tips, thanks Stanic. I liked that nifty little whisker u had on that vid - I'll check out amazon now.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

If you're getting soggy pucks, try updosing to 19g. Ideally you want the puck to pop out all in one piece and to be an even colour all over, not darker in certain areas.

Obviously the prep needs to be spot on for this to happen each and every time.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I'm usually getting soggy pucks as I take them out straight after the shot. If I leave them in there for a while they are drier. They rarely come out in one piece - mostly leave some bits in the bottom edges of the basket.

Reckon I should try some 19g based on this?


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

What tamper are you using with that vst . . . I'm sure you've said somewhere but I can't remember.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Motta 58.4 with flat base. Seems a good snug fit though perhaps I should check if there's any play in it.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I think you will be sorted once you get rid of those clumps. A whisk will do the trick.

Can you take some photos of each stage tomorrow?

When I watched one of the videos for the HG1 liked the little shaker pot (and even thought I would try a similar, home-made idea, if I'd had to live with the MM any longer)! You could try something similar until your whisk arrived


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I'll take some pics tomor.

Yeah I saw Stanic use one of those on his recent vid - hopefully won't have to add more stages to my workflow if the whisk improves things as u say.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Have you ever tried nutating (imagine a spinning coin on a flat surface just before it stops moving and lays flat) with your tamper before tamping the grounds flat?

Perhaps worth a try and should prevent any channelling around the inside rim of the basket. I suggest this as you're using a 58.4mm.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Yeah lake_m has suggested this also. Will give it a try and report back.

Are you saying that there's another size tamper where I wouldn't need to nutate?


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Torr TI 58.55mm flat trapez which is what I'm presently using. Had four tampers at one point but since purchasing the 58.55mm, never used any of the others hence sold them all.

Other brands make tampers this size also including Matt Perger's Pergtamp and Pullman The Big Step but be warned they are pricey!


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Wow those torr tampers are nice aren't they. Expensive you're not kidding.

Thanks - I may treat myself if I can't get nutating working well


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

kennyboy993 said:


> Great tips, thanks Stanic. I liked that nifty little whisker u had on that vid - I'll check out amazon now.


I've got this one


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Cheers Stanic - ordered the same


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

The alternative to nutating or a 58.55mm tamper would be one with a convex base. The idea being the centre of the tamper which has a slight bulge pushes down in the middle of your basket and pushes the grounds tight to the inner rim. Again, this should prevent/reduce channelling.

But as gets repeated time and time again the quality and consistency of your grinder is probably the most important step in shot prep.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

So here's picture of puck top then bottom. The circle indentation on the top is from the saucer I placed it on so nothing to do with shot. The bits missing from the bottom is what was left in the basket even though I was careful.

This shot was a good example of my problem - crazy fine grind yet after decent start to the shot with good distribution of coffee appearing around the basket it quickly started to pour too fast and had 36g in 24 seconds and tasted so sour was undrinkable. A very slightly finer grind next shot nearly choked the machine and I stopped it and sinked it. This is with (as is all my comments on this thread) BB Guatemalan decaf about 10 days after roasting.

Funny thing is I made a caf coffee this morning same workflow and it was lovely. Different grind setting though otherwise same workflow.

Could it be that my grinder just can't to get to grips with this decaf bean which seems a very dark roast?


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

There are visible holes and some dark patches which could indicate both grind quality and prep not quite there which in turn is preventing an even extraction but it's by no means the worst looking puck I've seen.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Any comments re the success I had with the other bean DoubleShot?


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

So the caffeinated coffee was a lighter roast than the decaf dark roast? Meaning you tightened the grind going from decaf to regular?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Actually I backed the grind off for the caf - even though it's a lighter roast I find I have to grind significantly finer for all decaf beans as myself and @dfk41 observed recently.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Most of my limited experience is with decaf beans as I don't like more than 1 or 2 caf drinks a week.

And I do find them so difficult and intolerant compared to the caf drinks I make. They seem to go off quicker and require such a fine grind their window of deliciousness is narrow.

Maybe I should really be looking at a bigger burr grinder for decaf e.g. e37s which is planned as my next purchase?


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Hmmm . . . One thing you keep mentioning is you are grinding super fine, what's the voume like in the pf? And a 'slight adjustment' shouldn't suddenly make it choke up (but then here I am saying this, I haven't had a Mignon)!

But the puck isn't that bad . . .

We drink a fair bit of decaf too. The easiest beans I've found recently are the Brown Bottle Peru Tunki. Maybe you've just had a few bags of 'difficult' beans.

You would surely see a difference with an E37, I couldn't believe how inch better the E8 was from the Mini M! But I'm sure you should be able to get consistently pretty good cups from what you have now.

It is frustrating for you, it comes across in your thread!


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

It is Mildred - especially as I know this passion has to be based mostly on decaf beans.

Good to know puck looks ok - I'll post some more as YouTube today and tips on here has given me things to try.

I know it's super tight grind as it's so much more than caf setting and also on mignon you can hear the burrs getting close.

I'll another caf bean to the one I had success with this morning and if that's ok too perhaps I should give up on the BB Guatemalan for now or until I do a Mildred style guess my next investment thread


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Just thinking @kennyboy993 - are you using pre-infusion? You have a plumbed in machine so should be able to do it on an E61. Surely that should help?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

lake_m said:


> Just thinking @kennyboy993 - are you using pre-infusion? You have a plumbed in machine so should be able to do it on an E61. Surely that should help?


I tried it and whilst things were different it didn't remove my problem.

I've been trying things you guys have suggested - I've got in to a rut I think. I now can't pull a decent shot full stop. I need to have a break and come back.

Gonna wait for new beans too - everything is saying to me it's a bean problem.

By any chance can heat have a big effect on stored beans? Our kitchen can get very warm with afternoon sun coming through bifold door glass which is thermal


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I only see one mention of a ratio on here .

Have you tried changing from 18-36g at all ?

Ignore how soggy your pucks are , this isn't key to taste .

I saw somewhere else your benchmark was a neros Americano on a thread . This is gonna be a petty dark roasted drink and tons of stuff will be perceived as sour in relation to the stuff Nero produce . In my experience they are really darker roasts .


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Great, thanks boots - I think we're getting somewhere.

No I haven't changed ratios - in my inexperience that's never occurred to me. Could u suggest what I might try next? I've got a medium roast Burundi roasted 5th march as my only bean at the moment


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Oh not true - I also have Rwanda from Horsham, roasted 28th Feb


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

kennyboy993 said:


> Oh not true - I also have Rwanda from Horsham, roasted 28th Feb


These are gonna taste radically different to a neros Americano . Re ratios try one and evaluate . You can go longer or shorter . Try both . The shorter ratio 18> 28 will be stronger .

The longer one will be weaker but possibly sweeter (18> 50 )

I think you may have coffees which are a way of your personal preference but this doesn't mean you can't hit tasty .


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Great, cheers. I've got espresso decaf blend on order so will try on those also


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

There's some good short snippet videos from the very knowledgable Scott Rao regarding uneven extraction and channelling etc.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks, I'll have a good look later.

Lots of things for me to try - though ultimately I'm still too inexperienced to tell a good shot from another. I know what I like though - unfortunately not how to get there.

I'm pretty sure I'm not getting channelling now thanks to help on here - though will watch these vids


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Only way I can taste if I like a shot is after adding water anyway - hoping this isn't masking things too much.

All espresso shots l, 1:2 ones, taste too sour/bitter for me anyway and to be honest I think I've lost my way between distinguishing sourness or bitterness. Just when I thought I was making progress


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

You've probably heard this before but try to change one variable, rather than a few, at a time. This should help you eliminate anything you're possibly doing wrong in your prep work and also allow you to be able to replicate when you get things right.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

So far I've been in the relative comfort of weighing and ensuring the output weight is within a certain time window. I also can see how a shot pours from watching under the naked pf.

Thinking about it, perhaps it is progress in that I'm now looking for more - I'm looking to enjoy the drink which in a weird sort of way is progress for me. Up to now I thought it's more important to get the weights right within time window than to even enjoy the drink!


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

This little experiment/test might be worth a try to understand more about one of your favourite phrases..."taste in the cup".


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Lovely, will have a look tonight


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Weighing is there to help you measure / adjust and repeat. Don't stop doing it ( weighing.) just keep working towards something that is tasty. I have never advocated one ratio being good for everyone and every coffee. You need to experiment .

Have you had an African coffee

That you liked before ? Have you had an espresso that you liked before ? If so what was it ?

Taste is personal preference , I find Rwandan coffees have a big juicyness and acidity I love but to someone else they may perceive this as sourness ( especially if extraction is not optimal ) .


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I haven't had an African coffee.

My only reference point is chain coffee shops as americano really.

And as I mentioned, I do like Nero.

I did enjoy that Costa speciality coffee they did recently as someone on here mentioned it. I had it as a long black and that's the nearest I've been to drinking a straight espresso.

Is there a general standard espresso ratio in cafes?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

kennyboy993 said:


> I haven't had an African coffee.
> 
> My only reference point is chain coffee shops as americano really.
> 
> ...


Nero and and Rwandan or Burundi will be different experiences taste wise . A ratio suits a coffee for a person , not all coffee all people . It may be what i enjoy and perceive as juiciness and acidity you perceive as bitter and sour .

Rwandan and Burundi are African coffees . The roast level will be significantly different also.

What is it about the Costa and Nero drinks you like - stay simple here . Sweet etc .

Again neros will use a longer ratio. 1:3 but it will be reflective of the coffee they use ( dark dark roast - Proabably Central American to go on milk ) .


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I don't like Costa generally though I enjoyed their speciality in a long black as it was sweet enough, the acidity I liked and the after taste just enough bitterness. I can't describe better than that at the moment.

Nero americano I enjoy due to sweetness and seems to have good body and aftertaste - again I think I mean right bitterness


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

There's that smell and taste of coffee I can't describe better than that - it's just rich and thick coffee-ness with some sweetness


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

kennyboy993 said:


> There's that smell and taste of coffee I can't describe better than that - it's just rich and thick coffee-ness with some sweetness


Get someone to recommend you a coffee from coffee compass that you will enjoy . A darker roast perhaps .

Central American or a blend .

With those coffees you have try running some longer 1:3 over 25-35 seconds . Will be weaker but you may get past sour and bitter . The notes on them probably talk about acidity and juiciness ?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Just had delivered decadent decaf espresso blend - is a dark roast and i think is perfect for what you're saying.

Machine warming up now. Notes are sweet nuttiness and roundness


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

It's Colombian


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Ok this is much more like it. Firstly this bean poured lovely at 1:2 and 1:3 - gloopy mouse tail and tiger stripes throughout on the 1:2. Black and white compared with the beans I had in - astonishes me how quickly beans stop pouring like this.... with my workflow and kit anyway.

Both 33 seconds. 18 in and 36 then 54 out.

I need to experiment more when I'm on my own at home but after I'd allowed them to cool then the taste I'm looking for is coming through. I do taste before adding water but almost everything still tastes sour/bitter to me. Anyway after water and some cooling I enjoyed the 1:3.

Thanks boots and everyone - looks like at least I'm moving forward again.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

This sounds more positive!

How are you tasting it . . . Sounds daft, I know, just bare with me


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I'm sipping the espresso straight away and just swallowing immediately. Too intense.

Then adding hot water and leaving to cool a little and then drinking normally as if I'm consuming the drink


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)




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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

DoubleShot said:


> There's some good short snippet videos from the very knowledgable Scott Rao regarding uneven extraction and channelling etc.


Loving these Scott rao vids - some tips you don't get to hear elsewhere eh, very useful


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

He's also written some good books which you might wish to check out...


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

DoubleShot said:


> This little experiment/test might be worth a try to understand more about one of your favourite phrases..."taste in the cup".


Fantastic - can't wait to try this. Will try this coming week


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

DoubleShot said:


>


Like this - proper espresso etiquette. Will be doing myself, start to mature my palette


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

kennyboy993 said:


> I'm sipping the espresso straight away and just swallowing immediately. Too intense.
> 
> Then adding hot water and leaving to cool a little and then drinking normally as if I'm consuming the drink


Then make it as an americans and enjoy that, no shame in espresso being too strong or intense for you. Don't force yourself to drink a drink that isn't your preference.

Not a huge amount of people neat espresso anyway, it's not for everyone.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

If you haven't already tried coffee cupping...






Tim Wendleboe is another very knowledgable guy about all things coffee related.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

https://www.thecoffeecompass.com/how-to-drink-espresso/


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Very good, thanks - never though about stirring.

Oh man I've learnt so much today!


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

kennyboy993 said:


> I've learnt so much today!


Sometimes it feel like every days a school day on here!


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Stumbled upon this interesting article that amongst other things discusses workflow

Admittedly it's on commercial equipment in a coffee shop environment but an interesting read all the same.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Some great insights on there, thanks.

In terms of an update I'm back on track.

I opened a new bag of beans and they just played ball - and were lovely.

But I've learned so much on here from the difficulties I had and my workflow has improved because of it.

Thanks again everyone

Oh and will be getting one of those over sized tampers when I can!


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## caffeinatedtrombonist (Oct 1, 2016)

Just wanted to say thank you for this thread. I've been racking my brains recently over distribution problems and was about to start a thread but this has certainly given me some more to think about.

Kenny, as for tasting espresso if find it useful to stir very well and allow to cool slightly (I use that time to clear up) Sometimes it's nice to top an espresso cup up with some water to 'open up?' the flavour but there's certainly no shame in drinking diluted espresso be it milk or water! One of the top espresso drinks I've ever had was in fact an americano at Truth coffee in Cape Town.

Edit: just read the article in post #61 from MildredM, and it covers my point far better!


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Glad it helped in some way Ashley.

Thanks for the tip, I'm gonna try that ;-)


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

First and only coffee I've made since last week so by no means perfect. Also this was prepared and made inside one minute, start to finish once machine had warmed up, meaning no faffing around. Coffee dispensed directly into portafilter, couple of vertical taps to collapse grounds and get any air out then tamp.

Bottom:



















Top (had some visible water sat on top after portafilter removed and so doesn't look great!):










19.2g dose in 18g VST ridgeless basket, 38.4g extraction in 30 secs.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks for posting DoubleShot - wow looks a bit different to mine.

So what can we observe here - uniformity of colour? Smooth surface

Can u tell us what grinder was used here?


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Eureka Mythos with 75mm TI coated burrs

Backs up what is said over and over again...quality of the grinder plays as big a part, if not bigger, than the espresso machine itself in producing great coffee.

There are better grinders on the market than mine and I have no doubt whatsoever that other people are far more knowledgable and capable of preparing a better shot than myself.

But, often some of us over think the whole preparation process aiming for perfection which most of us will never achieve with the equipment we have at home. A tasty coffee shouldn't be a huge faff though unless of course you have the free time and desire to experiment for that 1% improvement in the cup!


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Ah, little bit different to a mignon then.

How much can the grinder affect puck view - or perhaps it's all about meticulous distribution.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Like I said, I dosed directly into portafilter basket, couple of vertical taps to settle grounds releasing any air then one tamp and no spinning to polish!


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