# Choosing New Machine Advice Needed ...



## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

Well obviously it's coming up to Christmas soon, and I'm thinking of getting a new machine, one that's better than the De'Longhi Treviso Bar 14 ugly piece of junk that's sat on my worktop! It brews the espresso for a cappuccino etc to an acceptable standard, and milk frothing can be amazing (I got a froth of almost 2 inches on a cappuccino earlier, yum!) but it's plasticy, and horrible.

Sorry, enough rambling! I'm looking at new machines at John Lewis/Argos (The shame!) I don't really want to spend much, as although I love trying coffee and all the different flavours and stuff, it's not something I can afford or feel the need to spend too much on.

I'm looking at a maximum of around £130, might stretch to £150, I know I'm not going to get the best of machines, but it'll be better than what I'm using now.

The two I've seen which seem like they'll do the job are

http://www.johnlewis.com/230843332/Product.aspx

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/0503002/c_1/1%7Ccategory_root%7CKitchen+and+laundry%7C14418476/c_2/3%7C15701302%7CCoffee+machines%7C16527134/c_3/4%7Ccat_16527134%7CEspresso+coffee+machines%7C16528262.htm

Both have that stupid plastic milk frother attachment, (Panerallo or something?) but I removed the one on my current one and I can get by, I'll look into replacing the steam arm on my new machine though.

So excuse my noobness to coffee machines, but any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks


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## liquidmonkey2000 (Oct 4, 2010)

Get yourself a second-hand Gaggia Classic from ebay they typically go for between £80 - £150. You will end up with a much better machine. There are quite a few on the market because I think people buy them before they realise it is much more of a chore than they thought it was going to be. So they are quite often in good nick.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

It's quite hard to advise you really. I would strongly suspect that as a newcomer to espresso machines you'll be a little reluctant to buy a second-hand machine, regardless of how good it may be, and if this is the case, then either of the two machines that you have mentioned may suit your purpose. It's easy for those of us with a coffee obsession and who have some experience of higher-end machines to forget that although we view a £150 machine as entry-level, that price it represents a major investment in the process to most people! It's also easy for us to forget that making really good coffee isn't easy.

Am I right in thinking:

1. You are using either pre-ground coffee or pods?

2. You are reasonably happy with the coffee your existing machine makes?

3. Your choice of new machine will be heavily influenced by cosmetic appearance?

Let me start by explaining, as I am sure some others will, that you don't stand a chance of making really good espresso (that will satisfy an enthusiast) unless you have a high quality grinder and grind freshly roasted beans just before you use them. A cheap espresso machine plus good beans and grinder equals a chance of making really good espresso. A really good espresso machine and pre-ground beans equals no chance of making really good espresso!

That said, a new machine and a grinder will blow your £150 budget. If you want to go this route you could buy a superb grinder - the Iberital MC2 - and a cracking supply of beans, keep your current machine and still be within your budget. The improvement in your coffee would be immense. In fact, if you bought an MC2 and an Aeropress you would be able to access all the different coffee varieties at a very high standard. But I suspect that won't meet your needs, although it's an option that's well worth thinking twice about.

I think that both of your suggested machines have crema-enhancing portafilters. What these do is give the illusion that the espresso that you are making has a good crema - when in fact it doesn't, it just has some froth on top! They are designed to use pre-ground or pods and give a professional looking appearance.

My suggestion would be that you sample coffee from a really good independent coffee shop, and then decide if what you are currently making at home is acceptable to your palate. If it is, then either of the machines you are contemplating will do. If it isn't - then welcome to the world of coffee-geekdom!. Get prepared to spend more £150! Be prepared open your wallet and repeat after me: "Help yourselves".

I've just re-read what I've written and realise that it may sound a bit condescending. It isn't meant to be. I'm just concerned that you get the most bang for your buck. All of us on this forum welcome any newbie with open arms. Whether you want to get deeply involved in coffee making as a hobby, or just produce the best that you can with minimum effort makes no difference to us.

Just one further caveat - at entry-level Panarello arms are pretty standard. If a conventional steam arm is important to you, do a bit of investigation, and don't just take for granted that replacement of the panarello arm will be straightforward.

Oh, and welcome to the forum!


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

You are on the cusp of the slippery slope of espresso making. My take on the issue is thus.

I have a DeLonghi ESE pod machine at work for easy coffee making £50 (was £120) in the Argos sale, well made and it produces an acceptable coffee and is a simple, non messy way to make coffee at work, the guys at work thought the result was great until I took my home equipment in to give them a taste of "proper" espresso. They were stunned at the difference in the result and all agreed that the result was excellent. But none of them would be prepared to spend the money on the equipment or to get into the ritual required, they would, well some of them, be quite happy to go down the inexpensive machine route using pods ESE or otherwise to make coffee. Their cost/benefit analysis favoured that route whereas mine favours the full on approach at home due to the superior results.

So its kind of either stick with your straightforward pod route or take a deep breath and dive into more expensive, yet ultimately rewarding (learning curve notwithstanding) traditional espresso route.

Do ber in mind that a compromise would be the likes of a Gaggia Classic with a pod basket, you could then add a proper steam wand in future and ultimately if the espresso fever gripped you fully, buy a grinder and use a ground coffee basket with the Gaggia giving you an upgrade route without the major expense of a machine change.

Don


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

I think vintagecigarman has pretty much said it all already, but as stated already, you need to decide what you're after.

If it's a shiny toy that makes lousy coffee you're after, there's many of them around. If however, it's decent coffee you're after, something like a used gaggia classic with a suitable grinder is an excellent start.

You hopefully should be able to get a used gaggia classic ~£100, which unfortunately doesn't leave you much in terms of finding a decent grinder, which is by far the most important component after beans to making decent coffee.

Again, at this price you won't be able to get a suitable grinder new.

This will, probably go for a song, but it's a fantastic grinder:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WEGA-MAX-Coffee-bean-grinder-/110599784911?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item19c042c9cf

I'd say tbh, £100 is the least you'd want to spend on a grinder, unless you get very lucky and find something along the likes of mazzer/compak(also distributed as wega)/rancilio/macap for less.


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

Thanks, vintagecigarman, but yes, I am a bit reluctant on the idea of a second hand machine. I was looking at those two machines, as considering the thing I am using now probably cost about £60, I've been enjoying the coffee from it quite a lot.

1. Pre-ground coffee, there is an independent coffee shop not far away from me, where I can get fresh beans ground for me on the spot, so although it isn't the same as grinding at the machine as per use, it's better than going into Morrisons and buying a pack of pre-ground whatever.

2. I am, I only use it for drinks like cappuccino, latte, maybe the odd mocha or two, and my dad drinks Americano's from it if I make them, and he seems happy with it.

3. Not exactly. I'm more concerned about it being better made, I understand anything around £120 is going to be a bit plasticy, but it seriously can't be any worse than what I have now. Cosmetic appearance is just a bonus, our kitchen is from the 1970's or something, appliances are there to function!

I was thinking of a grinder, but went off the idea due to cost and lack of money to get a decent one.

The crema-enhancing portafilter I don't like the idea of, as I like to see how I'm doing with my espresso, if there's little or no crema, obviously I chuck it! If this is an optional thing on the machine, I won't use it.

Well, this coffee shop down the road from me was very nice, so I think I'll go with one of those two machines or something else around that range if I see one.

Thanks again, it is a case of I want to produce the best I can, but not go so deep into it I spend hundreds!

It's sort of important in a way, as I'm used to using a steam wand without the Panarello, it was also how I was shown how to steam milk at my local Costa! However, if it's easy clean or I can remove it and still get the milk container under, I'm happy.


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

I'm certainly not looking into using espresso pods for making espresso, I much prefer the grinds and tamping I'm using at the moment. I was at a Premier Inn hotel, they served Costa Coffee there, they were using espresso pods! Compared to the "proper" grind, tamping etc, it wasn't particularly nice.

But it's more of something that makes an acceptable cappuccino, lattes etc I'm after, I've always put functionality before asthetics! Although shiny new toys are nice to look at...

There's a Gaggia Cubika Plus on Argos, but it's a bit out of my price range. I might see if I can push it that far, doubt it, but if I could, I take it you'd reccomend that other the other two machines?


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

James, I have so much sympathy for you. Throughout my life the house, car, whatever, that I have really wanted has been just outside my financial reach.

But, compared to a DeLonghi at £150, the Gaggia at £170 is a no brainer. Go for the Gaggia if you can. It presents a lot more possibilities. If it comes with a crema-enhaning filter, then the cost of a real basket is peanuts. When you are ready to upgrade it will be saleable - I don't think a DeLonghi will be.

It gladdens me to hear that ESE pods are not the route that you want. Great that you can get fresh coffee ground locally. But that also means that you have access to freshly roasted beans. If I were you, I'd find some way to get the extra £20 for the Gaggia, and ask Santa for a hand grinder, so that you can use it to its max.

OK, you originally started out saying £130 - could stretch to £150 - and now we're saying spend £170. I think the difference will be worth it. But, if it's a step too far financially, don't beat yourself up. Either of the machines that you originally suggested will fill (perhaps temporarily) your needs. Enthusiasm and the desire to experiment are much more important that having the cash to buy expensive gear. If you go down that route I would suggest that you buy the cheaper of the two machines that you have identified, and with what is left over invest (and I use that word meaningfully) in an Aeropress.That gives you the best of both worlds - an espresso machine to play with (and we all like one of them, regardless of our age and budgets), and a means of exploring the full universe of coffee nuances and flavours.

It's a pleasure to work with someone who asks advice and then positively listens, instead of someone who just wants a decision that they've already made validated. Good luck>


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Sensible advice from vintagecigarman.

I'd recommend the Cubika over the machines linked in an earlier post.

There's not an awful lot that can go wrong with a working second hand Gaggia, and often a descale and good clean will bring them back to full working capacity.

There's nothing stopping you from using pre-ground beans until you can get a grinder. It's better to have good espresso than no espresso at all.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

SlowRoast said:


> Thanks, vintagecigarman, but yes, I am a bit reluctant on the idea of a second hand machine. I was looking at those two machines, as considering the thing I am using now probably cost about £60, I've been enjoying the coffee from it quite a lot.
> 
> 1. Pre-ground coffee, there is an independent coffee shop not far away from me, where I can get fresh beans ground for me on the spot, so although it isn't the same as grinding at the machine as per use, it's better than going into Morrisons and buying a pack of pre-ground whatever.
> 
> ...


To be fair I had a krups originally, but after it finally kicked it, I was glad, as the espresso it produced was mediocre at best. I then moved onto a gaggia classic which was a massive step upwards from that crappy plasticcy piece of junk and tbh, there isn't such a large leap from it to my current izzo. However, without a doubt, the grinder has by far made the most difference. Even with a mazzer mini, the flavours didn't really come alive in the cup, only when moving onto the big compak k10 conical did I notice a massive difference.

Everything btw since the krups btw has been second hand off ebay.

Honestly, if you do get a gaggia classic and just use preground espresso you'll be sorely disappointed. Especially illy preground rubbish. Best I got with it was dishwater. You could get something like a zassenhaus hand grinder which would be miles better with fresh beans and they're quite cheap too.

I would however advise against the cubika, it's nothing like the classic in terms of functionality or build quality, in fact it has a rather bad reputation for breaking down/the plasticcy switches failing.

Shame that you're a bit reluctant on the idea of a second hand machine, the classics are built to last imo, and tbh they aren't that plasticcy at all (unlike the cubika).


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

RisingPower said:


> Shame that you're a bit reluctant on the idea of a second hand machine, the classics are built to last imo, and tbh they aren't that plasticcy at all (unlike the cubika).


I can understand any newcomers reluctance to buying second-hand.

Making good espresso is a very steep learning curve, and the thought (even if it's unwarranted) that there may be a fundamental flaw in the equipment - rather than technique - may be a real barrier to making progress. There are also enough queries and horror stories about second-hand equipment on this and other forums to put anyone off!

I have a similar reluctance towards buying second hand coffee gear, though I can't justify it, having bought second-hand houses, cars, etc all my life!. But there are some things that I wouldn't dream of buying second hand, including computers, dishwashers, washing machines etc - principally because I don't know enough about their internal workings if they go wrong, and couldn't stand the chew of putting them right if they do (go wrong) . Personally, even with some experience behind me, I wouldn't buy a second-hand coffee machine unless I was certain of its provenance. I wouldn't risk my money sight unseen on something from e-bay.

Just a personal foible, I suppose!


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

vintagecigarman said:


> I can understand any newcomers reluctance to buying second-hand.
> 
> Making good espresso is a very steep learning curve, and the thought (even if it's unwarranted) that there may be a fundamental flaw in the equipment - rather than technique - may be a real barrier to making progress. There are also enough queries and horror stories about second-hand equipment on this and other forums to put anyone off!
> 
> ...


Fair enough.

I just enjoy tinkering inside the izzo/compak k10 though. I'd rather get something preowned and have a bit of a look over it as I enjoy that as well as making coffee.

I generally wouldn't buy most electronics off ebay though, apart from stuff which is simple enough to fix myself with relatively little pain involved.

Besides, a good workman never blames his tools


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

Slowroast ---> I rather made an assumption regarding pod use in my post, I guess because I use them in my office DeLonghi having found it a bit of a mare with ground coffee due to the lack of a three way solenoid resulting in it being a bit of a faff in the office kitchen. Of course freshly ground beans are the way to go, in truth that would again make the suggestion of the Gaggia Classic route a good way to go, a new one can be had for less than £250 from major UK retailers at the moment. Not a tremendous amount more than your current budget.

Given the popularity of it on this forum amongst users who range from keen amateurs to pro baristas it says a lot for the ability of the Classic. I used a very similar Gaggia for a few years and it is still going strong in the hands of a good friend and has only ever required the routine replacement of the group head seal as with any Espresso machine.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

RisingPower said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I just enjoy tinkering inside the izzo/compak k10 though. I'd rather get something preowned and have a bit of a look over it as I enjoy that as well as making coffee.


Total admiration for you. Tampering with the inside of a coffee machine is still like dabbling in the Black Arts to me - though I'm learning!


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## liquidmonkey2000 (Oct 4, 2010)

RisingPower said:


> I would however advise against the cubika, it's nothing like the classic in terms of functionality or build quality, in fact it has a rather bad reputation for breaking down/the plasticcy switches failing.


RisingPower I think you are referring to the old style Cubika. SlowRoast, however, was looking at the new Cubika Plus which is a slightly different beast. Although I cannot say how good or bad it is having never used it - Gaggia do seem to have attempted to address some of the old style Cubika's problems. The switches now seem more substantial and less likely to stick. The boiler is slightly more powerful than the old one and the water tank is now filled from the top rather than the side. I briefly owned one, albeit only to sell it on, and it did look reasonably well made. That said I would exchange the 'Perfect Crema' portafilter for a regular basket at the first opportunity.

By the way Comet are currently selling this for £127.00 which is well within the stated £150 budget http://www.comet.co.uk/shopcomet/product/652989/GAGGIA-CUBIKA-PLUS-RI815160?cm_mmc=Google+Shopping-_-Feed-_-Coffee_Makers-_-652989_GAGGIA_CUBIKA_PLUS_RI8151%2F60&_$ja=tsid:8360%7Ccc:%7Cprd:CUBIKA+PLUS+RI8151%2F60%7Ccat:Coffee_Makers.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

The power of the forum! Someone finds a great price - well done!

Sadly, the Comet site talks about the 'perfect crema' system on this machine. Anyone know if the portafilter will take a standard basket?


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Yep, should do. If not, the new portafilter can be picked up for decent price on ebay or from various coffee machine suppliers


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

Oh I'm very happy now with that price on that Gaggia! Thanks very much Liquidmonkey!







Much better than a De'longhi, I never thought to look at Comet...

DonRJ ~ Although £250 isn't a whole lot more, it's more than I (well, parents ... they gave me the budget) could afford, thanks though. I'll probably consider it for my next machine after the Cubika once I manage to get off the training wheels.

The Cubika at that price now means I get a better machine, and have more money for that much wanted milk frothing jug and thermometer, some of my own proper coffee cups, I only have two small latte glasses and a large mug.









Once more, thanks everyone for all your help, it's much appreciated!

Edit: Speaking of the portafilter basket, if the two from my De'longhi are the right size, I could use that in the Gaggia instead of the perfect crema device?


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Well, that seems to be a success story, James. Very happy for you. Please keep us posted on your progression - I'm sure that everyone who has contributed to this thread will have been pleased to see you lined up with a suitable machine, and are happy to have been able to help.

PS: once you're settled with the espresso machine, don't forget about the Aeropress (NO - I don't have shares in the company) - they are a great way to experiment with coffee!

Oh - and looking back at you first post on this thread - Merry Christmas - I guess it comes early where you live!


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

Ah, it certainly is! I shall definitely be posting more about it when I get it.

I'll have to try and remember the Aeropress or write it down somewhere. They do sound interesting though.

Haha, thanks but I have to wait 'til 25 December like everyone else, it's my birthday very soon, and the budget was split between birthday and Christmas, so I had to choose the machine now so I know roughly how much is left!

Now, if only I could "Borrow" a cup from my local Costa Coffee, shame they don't actually sell them...


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

Sadly I just looked at Comet again from that link, the Cubika Plus is no longer sold on there







I guess the offers on coffee machines will come back closer to Christmas.


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## liquidmonkey2000 (Oct 4, 2010)

I think £149 is the best shop price at the moment which can be found here: http://www.brennands.co.uk/home-garden/kitchen/coffee-machines/espresso-machines/gaggia-cubika-plus-black-espresso-coffee-maker-r18151/60/prod_1217.html.

There is also a "new" one on eBay for £110 +£18 P&P "buy-it-now" from what looks like a reasonably reputable seller here: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gaggia-Cubika-Plus-Coffee-Machine-Cappuccino-/200535623985?pt=Coffee_Machines_Makers&hash=item2eb0dac931#ht_512wt_1141. Although the water tank is noticeably chipped. It won't affect the use but annoying on a new item.


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## liquidmonkey2000 (Oct 4, 2010)

UPDATE

£127 on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gaggia-RI8151-60-Espresso-Machine/dp/B001HZE7VU/ref=sr_1_77?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1288286177&sr=1-77


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## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

James - I'm just about to put my Gaggia Coffee onto ebay. I've had it for a year but only used it for about 9 months and has been well looked after. PM me if you are interested in further details, but it should be well within your budget.

See a picture here (only espresso machine for sale).


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

Sorry I haven't been here to reply to things, I've had a friend over for a week! (I managed to get them into cappuccinos after I made one for them







)

Thanks Liquidmonkey for the Amazon link! Seems like Cubika's are on offer at that price a lot, so I'll probably end up with one of them.









Banish - Thanks but although I understand it's been well looked after and everything, I'm more keen on getting a new machine, mainly due to the fact I have no idea what to do if they go wrong, the guarantee is usually only a year on these things, I'm not sure what it is on a Gaggia though.


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## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

No problem - I fully understand.

If you live near one of the old Gaggia UK shops, now called CaffeShop, then you can see the machines working and even drink from one or two. Their price for the Cubika Plus is not as competitive as Amazon's, but at least you get chance to see one in action.


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

I do happen to be about 20 minutes or so down the road from the Northampton one! Thanks, I'll have to go down to it and see a Cubika Plus in action.


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## marbeaux (Oct 2, 2010)

As a temporary measure, couldn't the OP use a Hario Slim grinder which are very cheap?

That leaves him with the one decision for a suitable machine.within his remaining budget.


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

I was just looking at hand grinders, and that seems like it'd be suitable, as I would like to grind fresh, but don't have the space and (obviously) money for an electric grinder. The Cubika Plus has returned to Comet again at the same £127, so I'm pleased with that. Thanks for all your help everyone, it looks like it'll be the Cubika Plus, Hario Slim grinder, and the Dualit milk jug, thermometer and chocolate shaker set from John Lewis.


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