# Milk frustration



## Slee

Ive been dipping in and out making coffee, i just don't get the time as i used to









I seem to of lost the ability to make nice milk and getting any form of art is a real struggle I'm not sure where i am going wrong.

One thing it could be is when to start the art part.

Here is what i do currently, I pour the milk into the middle from around an inch from the cup so it break the surface.

I allow the cup to fill to around hlf way then i pour quicker to get the art foam but that isn't working i seem to be overfilling.

Ive tried to start earlier but i can't get it right.

Any tips?


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## Daren

Can you post a video?


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## DoubleShot

Pouring quicker won't necessarily help but getting the spout as close as possible to the surface of the coffee is what you need to do in order to start any art forming.

Pouring slow will also give you more time to complete your latte art before you've filled the cup to the brim.


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## Slee

umm i can try it wont be tonight but ill see what i can do.

Ah ok ill try going slower may be I'm rushing it.

Annoying i was at stage before where i was getting art everytime but i need to do it more to get better but now I've lost it


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## Dallah

Two words - Motta Europa


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## hotmetal

Does the jug make that much difference to a neophyte? I have heard that the Motta is good but I assumed it was good only for people who could already boss it. I've got a bog standard one and one of those Milk to Perfection ones that has the pillar in the middle. From a pouring perspective they're almost identical, so I probably needn't have bothered.


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## garydyke1

VCR Street smarts. That is all


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## robashton

Ditto the VCR Streetsmarts - it's how I learned.

I don't think upping milk jugs and playing with gear is the answer in this case, technique is techniue is technique.

HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend getting a thermometer and learning what the temperature feels like and getting a feel for how hot the milk gets over time, this was the biggest single step I took to getting my latte art game on.

Beyond the video + thermometer, practise is the key, if you have the moolah and the time, buy 16 pints of milk and just get through some cheap coffee on split shots, it's a bit of a waste but iteration is really handy when you're trying to get on top of something.


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## DoubleShot

Here it is, everyone's favourite milk steaming video:


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## h1udd

dang .... that machine whops out a nice amount of steam to easily create a massive vortex .... it takes me a while to fine the sweet spot to get the milk going around like that on the Vivi .... perhaps I should up the pressure ... hmmmmm


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## inkydog

Can anyone recommend a cheap jug that is good for latte art- around 350ml?


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## DoubleShot

@inkydog

The latte art 'Master' himself ( @Scotford ) uses an Olympia, I believe. Which just goes to show it's probably more down to technique than the milk jug/pitcher itself.

Try creamsupplies for some good prices on Motta Europa which is what a lot around here use and prefer.


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## Scotford

Hardly a master...

Just use any old jug, spouted vase or even a shoe if that's what you're comfortable with. Get to know what is happening as you pour and what you can do to change the way milk comes out of the vessel and what effect that has on your art.


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## El carajillo

Inkydog, as Scotford says I think it is more down to technique and lots of practice (possibly with a little tuition).

With regard to a jug (pitcher) the Motta Europa's are well thought of and are very well made also feel good in hand. If you require it just for L /art as well as the 350 ml they also make a

250 ml size but it does restrict the volume of milk for larger drinks.


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## Jon

El carajillo said:


> Inkydog, as Scotford says I think it is more down to technique and lots of practice (possibly with a little tuition).
> 
> With regard to a jug (pitcher) the Motta Europa's are well thought of and are very well made also feel good in hand. If you require it just for L /art as well as the 350 ml they also make a
> 
> 250 ml size but it does restrict the volume of milk for larger drinks.


I have a 250 and 350 - both great quality. Use them for single drinks shorter/longer respectively


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## Jon

h1udd said:


> dang .... that machine whops out a nice amount of steam to easily create a massive vortex .... it takes me a while to fine the sweet spot to get the milk going around like that on the Vivi .... perhaps I should up the pressure ... hmmmmm


What about changing your steam tip thingy?


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## forzajuve

Outside of the steaming process the pour is important and the following video is actually quite useful in some of the mechanics of the pouring itself which is often overlooked.


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## Slee

i watched the video and just tried it and i thought all was good until poured out what looked almost like what i started with oops! ill give it another go

FYI I've got the motta europa


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## Mrboots2u

Scotford said:


> Hardly a master...
> 
> Just use any old jug, spouted vase or even a shoe if that's what you're comfortable with. Get to know what is happening as you pour and what you can do to change the way milk comes out of the vessel and what effect that has on your art.


Next challenge > rosetta from a Converse please


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## Slee

Ok have had another go and I managed to get a bit of art but not there yet


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## Deejaysuave

Yep great vid this.


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## hotmetal

DoubleShot said:


> Here it is, everyone's favourite milk steaming video:


That's Baca getting all the way to the end without saying 'spro' once!

I so want to see Scotford pour art from a shoe! I think a stiletto rather than a Converse though, from a volume and 'spout' perspective it has to be preferable. If you used a Converse you'd be sure to end up with a "Venti"/ "Massimo" (insert favourite ridiculous pseudo-Italian name for comedy-size lar-tay).


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## Scotford

Mrboots2u said:


> Next challenge > rosetta from a Converse please


Challenge accepted.


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## Scotford

I'm not too far from binning a set of kicks actually, I'll save one for an extra special video extravaganza!


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## DoubleShot

Similar crazy antics have been done before:






Just shows, technique is far more important than the milk jug (for us amateurs!)


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## robashton

It's not impressive unless you've steamed it in the odd container too!


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## DoubleShot

robashton said:


> It's not impressive unless you've steamed it in the odd container too!


another challenge for Scotford!


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## Scotford

Ever seen milk steamed in a (very well) used shoe before?

GAME ON


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## Scotford

Not even sure this is possible at the min. I'll try when I get back to I after my hols


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## DoubleShot

We'll be waiting...


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## NickR

Has anyone mentioned milk? Some milk just won't work. I would recommend Cravendale full fat. Other brands do work and some taste better, but Cravendale is widely available and always works.

The other thing is temperature, getting the milk too hot will ruin the texture. Try a flat white in a good coffee shop and you'll find, it's not that hot. I would guess a maximum of 55 deg C. However. I no longer use a thermometer. I generally stretch the milk until its luke warm and then plunge the steam tip creating a vortex until I cant hold the jug any more. Then follow the instructions for pouring given on the video.


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## Rhys

I've never got decent textured milk yet, even with full fat. Dunno if I'm getting it too hot - but it doesn't take long with a single holed steam wand on the Pavoni to get too hot to touch.


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## DoubleShot

@Rhys

Get a Sage DB...problem solved!


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## robashton

It's true, best magic espesso plastic box around


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## DoubleShot

Almost struggle to find the words to describe just how good the microfoam from a Sage DB is. Yes that GOOD!

Simply yummy too! 

Sorry, back on topic, lol...


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## Rhys

DoubleShot said:


> @Rhys
> 
> Get a Sage DB...problem solved!


No thanks, it's not often I steam milk and I prefer the control you get from a lever (plus it's a lot better looking





















)


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## urbanbumpkin

DoubleShot said:


> Almost struggle to find the words to describe just how good the microfoam from a Sage DB is. Yes that GOOD!
> 
> Simply yummy too!
> 
> Sorry, back on topic, lol...


Did you get one in the end?


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## Slee

Ok I'm getting there... Noticed one of the issues I was having was I wasn't stretching the milk enough ie I wasn't cranking the steam on enough


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## NickR

Definitely getting there.


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## garydyke1

Rhys said:


> I prefer the control you get from a lever


Can you explain for the uninitiated ?


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## Slee

This mornings effort, seems I need to go bigger


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## NickR

Looking good, the texture looks spot on.


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## Rhys

garydyke1 said:


> Can you explain for the uninitiated ?


It's not just pumping out at a continuous 9bar (or 10, 12 etc). It has a gradual decrease in pressure, from needing to put a bit of effort in to get it started, to only having to push with a fingertip at the end. I've not used one, but spring levers do this consistently afaik? A manual one, you get a feel for the pour and the rate it comes out.

I certainly noticed a difference going from a pump (Classic) to a lever. @garydyke1 is that what you meant?


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## Rhys

I've been trying to lower the steam pressure to gain a bit more time, and hasn't worked. Sounds like it needs to be on full, with my technique being the only failing. Oh well.

I'm only using a cheap jug, but that shouldn't be a discerning factor? I've got an Espro toroid but it's the bigger one and no good for a single cup.

Back to full fat I think (we always have semi in the house), and carry on trying..


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## urbanbumpkin

I still get inconsistent milk. The single tip on that La Pav is quite tricky. There's a very fine margin of error. I got the best results by listening to to noise it makes. (The Tsk tsk tsk sound)


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## Rhys

urbanbumpkin said:


> I still get inconsistent milk. The single tip on that La Pav is quite tricky. There's a very fine margin of error. I got the best results by listening to to noise it makes. (The Tsk tsk tsk sound)


Indeed. It's how long do I do the 'tsk tsk' bit for? Maybe I should fasten a Gaggia panerello to it


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## Slee

On this is there any way to know when to stop stretching the milk? I seem to be under or over stretching. Usually i am over so i pour some out.


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## DoubleShot

I count how many seconds I've introduced air for at the beginning. Adjust up/down depending on how the milk turned out. Seem to need more air for semi-skimmed milk compared to whole milk from my experience.


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## davrot

Great video. Thanks!


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## Slee

When I go to pour the art I'm getting beige first then the white. Have I over stretched the milk?


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## DoubleShot

@Slee

You should not be getting beige out of a milk jug! Or do you mean you're getting a beige colour at the surface of the espresso?

If you start off pouring from a slight height (2 or 3") then the milk should dip under the crema. Only when you bring the spout right down as close as possible to the surface should the stretched milk start showing and that's when you start attempting to create your masterpiece.


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## Slee

Ha ye what I mean is the colour when I start to pour close on the surface. It seems to take a second before I get the white.

Here is tonight's effort.









I started high but Slowish and let the milk mix a bit keeping the spout in the middle. Then tipped the jug more and went in close when I was ready and shook a little. Think I was being too careful this time loss like I have a row of hearts.


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## DoubleShot

What gets suggested is to pour a small splash of milk into the espresso and give it a swirl to give you a consistent starting colour to the top surface. Then start your pour.


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## PeterF

Position tip 1 third in from side wall, square on (not at an angle), half submerge tip, don't move the jug around. This usually works. Also a cold milk jug works best. I keep my jug in the fridge.


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## Mrboots2u

Once your confident with technique then you can ditch the fridge , it's really not worthy the hassle or doing " much " .

You can stretch small amounts of milk on a small warm jug in 10-15 seclnds .

So the time the fridge is giving you is academic . Once the milk is right getting a the speed at which you pour - to fast and slow will result in to much or too little mix of texture and the wrong time


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## DoubleShot

I need to practise pouring techniques, mentioned here. I know I pour too fast!


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## Slee

PeterF said:


> Position tip 1 third in from side wall, square on (not at an angle), half submerge tip, don't move the jug around. This usually works. Also a cold milk jug works best. I keep my jug in the fridge.


Do you think the texture is not right?

Here is today's attempt










Better art I think but there is that halo around it


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## Mrboots2u

Look like the milk might be a bit thick ? How long after pouring did you take the pic though


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## Slee

Mrboots2u said:


> Look like the milk might be a bit thick ? How long after pouring did you take the pic though


Just after I cleaned the steam wand 

Ok so still less time stretching then?


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## Mrboots2u

Its really hard to tell from that photo - if its a little thick or its due to the rate of flow where pouring

Try just a little less air bit stretching - apologies what machine is it your using , what volume jug


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## Slee

Mrboots2u said:


> Its really hard to tell from that photo - if its a little thick or its due to the rate of flow where pouring
> 
> Try just a little less air bit stretching - apologies what machine is it your using , what volume jug


I have a rancilio silvia and im using a motta Europa 500ml jug.


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## Slee

would one of you mind steaming some milk then record moving the milk around the jug so i can see how thick it should be?

An odd request i know but i can see what im aiming for then and work from there.

Thanks!


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## Mrboots2u

Slee said:


> would one of you mind steaming some milk then record moving the milk around the jug so i can see how thick it should be?
> 
> An odd request i know but i can see what im aiming for then and work from there.
> 
> Thanks!


yeah im off tomorrow ill give it a go


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## Mrboots2u

Slee said:


> would one of you mind steaming some milk then record moving the milk around the jug so i can see how thick it should be?
> 
> An odd request i know but i can see what im aiming for then and work from there.
> 
> Thanks!


Right I'll try one of steaming too in a bit

I do my milk very flat ...


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## DoubleShot

Mrboots2u said:


> Right I'll try one of steaming too in a bit


Looking forward to this as it might give me some much needed pointers.


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## Jumbo Ratty

should have been under the category informational, not comedy


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## DoubleShot

Nah, that's just boots swirling milk in the jug. I want to see him actually steaming the milk.


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## Mrboots2u

waiting for the camera battery to charge ( about 20 mins ) cant do it holding the iphone

Its just the way i do it , not the " right way :


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## Mrboots2u

Done you some clips - other seeing some below average latte art I'm not sure what you will learn tho


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## DoubleShot

You're too modest boots! You've really stepped up your game during the past few months, you are no longer in the 'amateur' camp as far as I'm concerned!


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## Slee

Thanks Boots! So looking at the video with the milk in the jug is the milk all pretty liquidy? I think when I'm doing it it is much thicker so I need to stretch less. I did give it a go but when I poured the top of the milk looked too watery so I guess I need to keep doing it a bit longer each time and see where I am. Thanks again for doing those


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## Mrboots2u

Slee said:


> Thanks Boots! So looking at the video with the milk in the jug is the milk all pretty liquidy? I think when I'm doing it it is much thicker so I need to stretch less. I did give it a go but when I poured the top of the milk looked too watery so I guess I need to keep doing it a bit longer each time and see where I am. Thanks again for doing those


Ive done some more clips but imovie is being a pig at the moment ...perhaps ill get them up tomorrow milk isnt liquid , just had a good mixed texture to it


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## DoubleShot

Are the built-in video editing tools (simple as they are compared to iMovie) on your iPhone 6 no good boots? Doesn't have to be a masterpiece with onscreen text and accompanying music!


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## Mrboots2u

DoubleShot said:


> Are the built-in video editing tools (simple as they are compared to iMovie) on your iPhone 6 no good boots? Doesn't have to be a masterpiece with onscreen text and accompanying music!


its on the camera....not the iphone

plus im uploading a film i made for my little boy ...


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## DoubleShot

No worries, something to look forward to tomorrow then...


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## hotmetal

Those last 2 clips are surprisingly useful actually. I didn't think you'd be able to tell much from a clip of some already steamed milk but the jiggling jugs (oo-er) and spoon in the cup show a lot about the texture.

Good point about the time the photos get taken. I've had the occasional half-decent pour (relatively speaking) but by the time I get the camera out a load of small bubbles appear, ruining the look of the texture.


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## Mrboots2u

@hotmetal again my milk is quite flat , but I'm used to working with it . It could certainly take a little more texture and be art worthy ...

I think as scotford suggested the temp has a lot to do with how the milk Mixes and pours ...


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## hotmetal

Cheers Boots. I agree though that less is often more when it comes to steaming milk. My temperature is about right as I have a temp tag (which agrees with my fingertips - hard to see the tag when steaming but I use my fingers on the base and the temp tag confirms 65°).

I tend to add a little too much air a lot of the time. This makes for a nice cappuccino but the 'art' can be a bit blobby or feathery as a result.


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## Slee

I'm going to give it a go this evening see if I can get the right texture. We should have a beginners latte art day


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## Mrboots2u

ok clips here

these are not tutorials or best practice , just what i do ...

first one i added to much milk to set the crema in the cup


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## Slee

Mrboots2u said:


> ok clips here
> 
> these are not tutorials or best practice , just what i do ...
> 
> first one i added to much milk to set the crema in the cup


Thanks again for doing the videos they are very helpful!


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## Slee

Ok here are my two attempts tonight...



















Both similar so I'm consistently bad but think better?

Milk seemed right this time too?


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## Mrboots2u

Slee said:


> Ok here are my two attempts tonight...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both similar so I'm consistently bad but think better?
> 
> Milk seemed right this time too?


Did the milk taste good ? Creamy ? Any easier to pour ?


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## Mrboots2u

Looks better Keep it simple - try monks head - then add a wiggle then add a tulip . Easier than Rosetta .


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## Slee

Mrboots2u said:


> Did the milk taste good ? Creamy ? Any easier to pour ?


Yes seemed good, was creamy, milk seemed airy. I used my palm on the bottom of the pitcher and that seemed to get the right timings. The milk was easier to pour as it was less thick. When I first poured I got less on the top of the milk which seemed better. It felt good to get two that were similar hopefully can keep getting that and then improve the art


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## Mrboots2u

Slee said:


> Yes seemed good, was creamy, milk seemed airy. I used my palm on the bottom of the pitcher and that seemed to get the right timings. The milk was easier to pour as it was less thick. When I first poured I got less on the top of the milk which seemed better. It felt good to get two that were similar hopefully can keep getting that and then improve the art


I'll try and do a couple more clips of pouring from closer ... Need @Scotford to contribute as an no where near his level . And it's the blind leading , the blond a bit by me


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## Slee

Mrboots2u said:


> I'll try and do a couple more clips of pouring from closer ... Need @Scotford to contribute as an no where near his level . And it's the blind leading , the blond a bit by me


It definitely helped seeing the milk consistency 

I've never attempted a tulip it seems harder to me but maybe I'll give it a go


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## Mrboots2u

Slee said:


> It definitely helped seeing the milk consistency
> 
> I've never attempted a tulip it seems harder to me but maybe I'll give it a go


Start mastering the monks head


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## Scotford

Ello! From what I can glean here is that you're not getting consistent enough milk. Remember that there's a routine you follow for every step of making your caffeinated bevvie, from grinding exact amounts of beans, getting all ocd on distribution, exact temperatures and times during extraction to yields that are measured in fractions of grams. Steaming of milk should be an extension of that. Instead of trying some radical new way to hold a jug for you to texture milk, go with what's comfortable to you and learn how you can get the best out of what you are using. No two of my baristas hold the jug the same way and are all getting to a point where I really have to try that bit harder on shift with them!

If you're struggling to find a correct texture and viscosity for your milk: Swirl an espresso in a glass untill the crema is all mixed in and the entire shot looks like an unsettled Guinness. That's the texture I go for when I want the best art pouring milk.

Failing that, if you're constantly over stretching milk, get another jug and pour from your steaming one into that from a bit of a height. Doing so knocks a bit of the air out of the milk. Still over stretched? Repeat.

Have you under stretched you milk and its too thin? I find that the 'ducking' motion of tulips is what gets what thicker milk you have into the drink. That and round-the-side pours (but admittedly I stopped doing those as I prefer to have complete control over my pour and with those kind of pours I didn't feel I had that).


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## Slee

Thanks Scotford i think my last two attempts seem ok with the milk texture and i was happy i got two the same so hopefully i can carry that on and as you say i follow the same routine. Not sure what you got the jug holding bit from I've never changed that but i think I'm making progress now and Boots vids helped a lot.

Ill keep going and try the heart etc first and get that right. The good thing is they taste good


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## Scotford

Yeah go for taste first and foremost. Looks come second and making coffee look pretty does take practice.


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## Mrboots2u

Ok clip three... @Scotford what happens in this one. Is the milk to thin to control ,do i not tilt the cup back quick enough?


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## Scotford

From what I can see, it looks like sexy silky milk. Maybe its a tiny bit too thin for great control but see what I said about tulips and the rocking/ducking motion?


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## Mrboots2u

Scotford said:


> From what I can see, it looks like sexy silky milk. Maybe its a tiny bit too thin for great control but see what I said about tulips and the rocking/ducking motion?


Yeah - I think it was just a little thin and I was/wasn't rocking

Gotta day the aurelia steam wand and tip are a dream to use


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## DoubleShot

Mrboots2u said:


> Gotta say the aurelia steam wand and tip are a dream to use


I have a 4-hole Aurelia steam tip, sadly it's not the exact match for the thread on my stock Brewtus steam wand!


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## DoubleShot

Up the Hill and Down the Slope - The Loft


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## Slee

So tonight's effort I think the texture is good? I panicked and wiggled instead of doing a heart doh!


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## Mrboots2u

DoubleShot said:


> Up the Hill and Down the Slope - The Loft


You googled that


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## DoubleShot

Nope. Shazam'd it!


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## DoubleShot

Found this useful.


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## DoubleShot

Watching a pro do it, makes it look relatively straight forward. That is until you have a go. That's when it becomes abundantly clear that's it's not so easy, lol!


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## DoubleShot

Rosetta...anyone?


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## Slee

Think this is my best attempt so far. What do you think?


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## DoubleShot

That's decent Slee. Bet it tastes good too?!


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## Slee

Thanks DoubleShot yes it tasted good







This time i remembered to lift before cutting through but got a bit wiggly but least I'm getting there just very slowly


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