# DB has arrived . . .



## Teresap (Jun 11, 2017)

It came yesterday afternoon which was actually next day delivery which I was quite impressed with as I didn't have to pay extra.

I thought I had a problem at first as the loud humming noise when it was first turned on wouldn't stop even after the machine had reached temperature and when I turned on the steam wand all I got was 3 beeps and no steam.







I gave it a good while and in the end phoned Sage and the assistant said to email them with details and they would pass it on to the white glove centre and someone would be out.

I then did an internet search and other people had had the same thing so I tried again . . .and again and eventually the noise stopped and I had steam . . .yay. I'm presuming it was the steam boiler taking a long time on initial start up. I had looked at one of the youtube videos for the first start up and that machine stopped humming and produced steam much quicker than mine.

So I did a trial shot this morning and then had my first flat white. Lovely, the steaming is a joy, much quicker than the DTP( but I'm not knocking that machine it's brilliant). I have had to reduce the grind size, I was on a 12 for the DTP which gave me 16gms grounds for 30 g coffee in 26 secs. I've brought it down to 11 bt it's still a little quick so will try 10 next time and I will updose slightly. I tried 17 gms buut think the optimum will be 18gms

So I'll keep you informed of my progress.

Teresa x


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Congratulations Teresa - sounds a great setup.

The more I read the more it feels like the Sage DB and alike are the way forward for home machines - looking forward to hearing more


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Enjoy your new journey, I bet even the spend is less painful already Savour all that lovely coffee:good:


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Sage DB is set up for a 20 gm plus shot as standard. I do not know what grinder you have but the white gloves service will assume a sage grinder. This grinder cannot grind fine enough so they compensate by over dosing. The WG man will not even use scales, just eye. If you try to dose at 16 to 18 gms using a sage grinder your shot will be too fast.

I could pull a shot using a decent grinder to any weight/output ratio.......get WG booked, they will help you


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## Teresap (Jun 11, 2017)

Hi DFK41.

Yes, it's the Sage grinder but I haven't had any problems grinding fine enough. I could dose 14gms on the DTP for a 24 gm shot in 25 seconds so I'm hoping I can do a similar thing with the DB.

Teresa x


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## Teresap (Jun 11, 2017)

Thanks looking forward to playing . . .


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## Teresap (Jun 11, 2017)

How right you are


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Congratulations on an excellent purchase. Great machine and lots of control. Adjustable pre infusion, PID, adjustable volumetrics. You'll learn a lot by experimenting with different beans and settings.

But start saving for a new grinder. To get the best out of the DB, you'll need one.


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## Teresap (Jun 11, 2017)

Hi Lake_m . . .Please don't tell my husband that . . . .

Teresa x


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## DaveP (Jul 14, 2017)

Waiting for 1st 2nd 3rd 4th and even 5th impressions ... as well as daily reports for a week


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Happy New DB Day

















Yes! Lots of updates and impressions, please!


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

looking forward to see some latte art of yours


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## Teresap (Jun 11, 2017)

You're in for quite a wait . . .unless you like abstract latte art









Teresa x


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

Congratulations teresap I think you might be wired for a few days lol


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Enjoy your new DB

You'll be caffeinated for years to come!


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## Lilybell2 (May 1, 2017)

Teresap said:


> Hi Lake_m . . .Please don't tell my husband that . . . .
> 
> Teresa x


There is some information from which spouses should definitely be sheltered.


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## DaveP (Jul 14, 2017)

O'h ..Teresa. have you got your popcorn maker yet, you know it makes sense.... green beans are cheaper than roasted

So you will be saving so much money you will have the cc paid off in no time


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## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

Depends how much you value your time


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## Teresap (Jun 11, 2017)

:act-up:


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## DaveP (Jul 14, 2017)

Normally .... no news is good news, but

it's oh so quiet

Shh shh

It's oh so still

Shh shh

You're all alone

Shh shh

And so peaceful until


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## Teresap (Jun 11, 2017)

Well, I'm really enjoying this machine. I've been playing around with the preinfusion time which is simple to do and does seem to make a difference. I've increased it to 10 seconds and changed the grind so that I'm getting 32 gms coffee in 26 secs from 18 gms of grounds. I've programed this into the 2 cup setting so I'm going to try and pull the shot and steam at the same time this afternoon









Because the steam is operated by a lever it's simple to reduce the amount of steam mid operaton if I want to.

What I've found is it's not the type of machine that tries to take you over, it's no prima donna, it does what it says on the tin yet gives you a lot of adjustments if that is what you want.

Imressed.

Teresa x


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Teresap said:


> Well, I'm really enjoying this machine. I've been playing around with the preinfusion time which is simple to do and does seem to make a difference. I've increased it to 10 seconds and changed the grind so that I'm getting 32 gms coffee in 26 secs from 18 gms of grounds. I've programed this into the 2 cup setting so I'm going to try and pull the shot and steam at the same time this afternoon
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Teresa have a read of this thread, or jump to page 3 of it. Gary **** explains how to play around to get low pressure shots, pulled at around 6 bar. It generally seemed to be agreed by members who have done this that it is a BRILLIANT tweek, though not talked about so much these days!

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?34666-Sage-DB-is-this-acceptable&highlight=sage


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## DaveP (Jul 14, 2017)

> I'm going to try and pull the shot and steam at the same time this afternoon


Video... or it didn't happen


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## Teresap (Jun 11, 2017)

Duolicate post.


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## Teresap (Jun 11, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Teresa have a read of this thread, or jump to page 3 of it. Gary **** explains how to play around to get low pressure shots, pulled at around 6 bar. It generally seemed to be agreed by members who have done this that it is a BRILLIANT tweek, though not talked about so much these days!
> 
> https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?34666-Sage-DB-is-this-acceptable&highlight=sage


Thanks so much for this, it's really interesting and I'll try it tomorrow.

Teresa x


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## wanderdown (Jan 16, 2018)

lake_m said:


> Congratulations on an excellent purchase. Great machine and lots of control. Adjustable pre infusion, PID, adjustable volumetrics. You'll learn a lot by experimenting with different beans and settings.
> 
> But start saving for a new grinder. To get the best out of the DB, you'll need one.


I've had my Sage DB for about a month. I'm a complete newbie here and have been reading up a bit on grinders. So how much do I need to save to replace my old Krups grinder (which was fine for F/P or filter but ...)?


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

wanderdown said:


> I've had my Sage DB for about a month. I'm a complete newbie here and have been reading up a bit on grinders. So how much do I need to save to replace my old Krups grinder (which was fine for F/P or filter but ...)?


You happy with 2nd hand or prefer new?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

wanderdown said:


> I've had my Sage DB for about a month. I'm a complete newbie here and have been reading up a bit on grinders. So how much do I need to save to replace my old Krups grinder (which was fine for F/P or filter but ...)?


The Sage is quite capable and will utilise any grinder you buy. Since the machine only makes coffee from whatever you put in, then the grinder is perhaps more important than the machine itself. Best have a think and set a budget as it makes our life easier! Plus any requirements such as size/space issues, on demand etc


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

£600


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> £600


Love the precision of this answer Kenny...


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

igm45 said:


> Love the precision of this answer Kenny...


Ha ha thanks mate - I hope OP doesn't ask me to explain.

Seriously though.... I wanted to answer directly and this amount will get top end 2nd hand.


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## IZ2018 (Jan 16, 2018)

dfk41 said:


> Teresa have a read of this thread, or jump to page 3 of it. Gary **** explains how to play around to get low pressure shots, pulled at around 6 bar. It generally seemed to be agreed by members who have done this that it is a BRILLIANT tweek, though not talked about so much these days!
> 
> https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?34666-Sage-DB-is-this-acceptable&highlight=sage


Many thanks for this link.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

surely a better grinder is a lot less faff. I get 15 > 40 in 33 secs at 9 bar without having to manually press stop etc. That being said, I do have the palette of a cat thats just cleaned its rear.

I dont understand low pressure, is it better? ist the pressure determined by the grind size and density of the puck?


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

so i looked into this a bit more, and then found this:

http://nic.steve-tek.com/?page_id=180

seems less faff to just make the tweek on the OPV, i'd imagine its bye bye warranty though


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I did the tweeks in my link and showed the White Gloves man and he was bowled over at the taste differences and said that it would not have a problem with warranty, but obviously Mr nick would have


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> I did the tweeks in my link and showed the White Gloves man and he was bowled over at the taste differences and said that it would not have a problem with warranty, but obviously Mr nick would have


I may well give it a go to see, i put in the back flush disc and it tops out at 10 bar, but extractions come out at 9, I wonder if they done some quality tweeks as I have seen other peoples machines top out much higher.

So lower pressure longer extraction gives a much better cup?


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## wanderdown (Jan 16, 2018)

igm45 said:


> You happy with 2nd hand or prefer new?


People on here seem to consider second-hand a good route so maybe that's a good idea.

By the way, are there well-known outlets where you can view / compare decent brands?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> The Sage DB is set up for a 20 gm plus shot as standard. I do not know what grinder you have but the white gloves service will assume a sage grinder. This grinder cannot grind fine enough so they compensate by over dosing. The WG man will not even use scales, just eye. If you try to dose at 16 to 18 gms using a sage grinder your shot will be too fast.
> 
> I could pull a shot using a decent grinder to any weight/output ratio.......get WG booked, they will help you


Personally I don't think that is entirely correct. In my case it will grind fine enough to choke the machine and make the brew pressure really shoot up. Far too high really even to the point where most water goes out of the OPV. That's 2 sage grinders. The SGP and the one in the BE. They did update them at some point as one of their video's mentions.

What could be an issue is the grinds they produce. Fines and just how much difference there is between extractions from flat burrs against conical. Also burr size and speed. I'll quote something from some one who posted in a thread you started.



> Yes Dave, I have a smart grinder pro next to my ek. I was intrigued by the grind distribution as it's got a pretty tight peak, tighter than the ek according to the graphs I've seen and a similar looking fines count. It does do something very different in the cup to the ek and it does over extract but its loads less fuss and can still produce great tasting spro. It will also grind up to traditional French press size which the ek won't do.


The thread is of interest to me as I have started wondering about brew pressure.







Glad it cropped up. Back on topic I'd love to know where these graphs referred to are. Personally I tune to achieve what taste notes suggest. So far the grinder hasn't been a limitation on that. Ratio's. I'm prepared to work on that basis that the usual basket weights and shot size can be used if needed. Light single and doubles, 6 and 12g. Standard 7 and 14g. Shots single 30ml, double 60ml. If a Sage grinder happened to need a ratio of 1:5 based on these it wouldn't discount the grinder for me. More often it seems to be around 1:3. Why - pass but I will be trying a larger flat burr model eventually. One thing that many reckon is that as they are flat it will increase the taste yield for the same quantity of grounds. On the other hand others reckon conical is better for flavour and aroma, cooler grinding may be why that's mentioned at times.

You've mentioned problems and the white gloves service. One thing for sure is that some one who is used to grinders could have problems with a Sage one if they try and use time settings too soon.

John

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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I was using decaf T the time which needs. Finer grind and the WG man actually dozed at 23 grams so read into that what you will


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The whole area confuses me Dave and I wonder if some aspects are down to the type of burrs. One thing that surprised me is how well Sage hold the burrs in position. Some others don't. On the other hand it might produce chunks and a certain amount of fines. The chunks would explain the fast flow rates.







I do have some sieves but they run from 10um to 270 which I suspect only just reaches the espresso range.

Personally I'll be glad when I get the Doge up and running but it will be some time yet. Like many I am not sure I could put up with one that large. That leaves the question where to go for something "better". A question that often crops up. With me "better" will always have a bit of a seeing is believing aspect.

John

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## wanderdown (Jan 16, 2018)

kennyboy993 said:


> Ha ha thanks mate - I hope OP doesn't ask me to explain.
> 
> Seriously though.... I wanted to answer directly and this amount will get top end 2nd hand.


OP here (







) - so you would't recommend your Mignon?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

If your budget was £200 ish then yes definitely.

But if I didn't have one I'd push up to the next level 65mm burrs and above.

Mignon is great though no matter how well built it is - and how Kitchen friendly - it's still small burrs and after a year with mine I can tell


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## wanderdown (Jan 16, 2018)

dfk41 said:


> The Sage is quite capable and will utilise any grinder you buy. Since the machine only makes coffee from whatever you put in, then the grinder is perhaps more important than the machine itself. Best have a think and set a budget as it makes our life easier! Plus any requirements such as size/space issues, on demand etc


Well, height is an issue. The DB fits neatly on the kitchen work surface under the wall cupboards. Max height for a grinder is 470mm but that leaves no access for re-filling and means having to move it in and out. If it is not too wide, say up to 400 mm then I might be able to avoid all the toing and froing. I generally do 1 or 2 espressos at a time, so don't need to grind whole packets in one go. I mentioned the cost of the Sage grinder as a starting point but am prepared to pay more. I've just come across the Niche thread - maybe that would be a good candidate (if I can put up with the Krups till June!!).


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

wanderdown said:


> Well, height is an issue. The DB fits neatly on the kitchen work surface under the wall cupboards. Max height for a grinder is 470mm but that leaves no access for re-filling and means having to move it in and out. If it is not too wide, say up to 400 mm then I might be able to avoid all the toing and froing. I generally do 1 or 2 espressos at a time, so don't need to grind whole packets in one go. I mentioned the cost of the Sage grinder as a starting point but am prepared to pay more. I've just come across the Niche thread - maybe that would be a good candidate (if I can put up with the Krups till June!!).


Your requirements and constraints are pretty much the same as mine.

Niche if it fills its promise looks unbeatable.... though also look at ceado es7s and eureka atom.

Perhaps consider making hole in cupboard bottom that sits above grinder for loading beans..... I'm serious ;-)


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:


> I may well give it a go to see, i put in the back flush disc and it tops out at 10 bar, but extractions come out at 9, I wonder if they done some quality tweeks as I have seen other peoples machines top out much higher.
> 
> So lower pressure longer extraction gives a much better cup?


The 1 bar difference is due to you measuring the static pressure (with the blanking plate) and dynamic (I think that's the word) pressure (ie when water is flowing) is usually 1 bar less. That was the rule of thumb when adjusting the OPV on a Classic.


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## wanderdown (Jan 16, 2018)

kennyboy993 said:


> Your requirements and constraints are pretty much the same as mine.
> 
> Niche if it fills its promise looks unbeatable.... though also look at ceado es7s and eureka atom.
> 
> Perhaps consider making hole in cupboard bottom that sits above grinder for loading beans..... I'm serious ;-)


The Ceado is a bit out of my price range. The Atom could be worth a bit more research - any idea where you can actually see a physical specimen (in London, say)? The Niche seems the best candidate but can I wait until June? Will it be on general sale in June or just available for people who have already backed the project?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Ceado for £800 for sale on the forum now 

It's where my money would go if the timing was right for me


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Could I just ask if you would mind measuring the steam wand diameter please? I'm thinking of sourcing a tip for my DTP if it will fit


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

The dB steam wand diameter is 10mm


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:
 

> The dB steam wand diameter is 10mm


Thank you. Looks like it might fit my DTP. Cheers


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

rob177palmer said:


> The 1 bar difference is due to you measuring the static pressure (with the blanking plate) and dynamic (I think that's the word) pressure (ie when water is flowing) is usually 1 bar less. That was the rule of thumb when adjusting the OPV on a Classic.


This talk about brew pressure is interesting. I've no idea what a DB does when the brew pressure is set by the OPV but on a BE it results in more water going into the drip tray. Considerably more in some cases. The amount is set by grind so the pressure set by the OPV remains constant and less and less water goes through the coffee as the grind gets finer. More and more into the drip tray. That can easily get to 200ml plus for the usual sizes of a single shot and also produce a "better" shot. Setting the OPV to 6bar is effectively more or less keeping the pressure within the infusion range going on a BE gauge. Joey has done that in a different way on his DTP. I understand some infusion aspects can be changed on a DB. Might be best to explore those before altering OPV settings.








This is why I've developed more of an interest in brew pressure also down finding that I tend to like drinks brewed at more like 15 bar than 10. I haven't altered the OPV setting but that is where it cuts in.

John

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## wanderdown (Jan 16, 2018)

kennyboy993 said:


> Ceado for £800 for sale on the forum now
> 
> It's where my money would go if the timing was right for me


Thanks for the heads-up. Unfortunately life got in the way of the virtual world and the Ceado had already gone.


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