# quality equipment in the hands of incompetents!



## bignorry (Mar 19, 2013)

Over the last couple of days Ive had the misfortune of trying coffee from a few different local coffee shops

and come to the conclusion that the reason a high number of shops fold is the simple fact they dont know

what they are doing and deserve what comes to them.

One shop, newly opened, looks lovely but when it comes to the main part of the business it was wrong in

so many ways.A beautiful big Magister, with dirty portafilter then he proceeds to scrape dried grounds from

the basket with a spoon, rinse under brewhead then fill ,without drying! Then the best bit a plastic tamper to ensure a 15

second pour.All "constructive criticism" was shrugged off with his IM THE BARISTA smile.

My first try of Puro coffee and most certainly my last.If these companies wanted to increase market

share then they should be dropping into the shops using their products and ensuring a modicum of quality.

Its not even as if he had any excuse ,he was owner and experienced Barista, or so he claimed.

No sympathy when TO LET sign goes up,I know a bit, but would take training if opening a shop!

At least Starbucks staff admit everything is preset and they have no control .

What if baristas were paid a rate which reflected the level of skill required? surely it wouldnt hurt profit,

more likely increase it.

Rant over and feeling much better now


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## CallumT (Aug 23, 2013)

Baristas and pay is a very strange ground to be in - I honestly agree in the fact a skilled barista earns every darn penny there paid. The trade should be respected just like a chef in any decent restaurant.

Alot of things change when serving commercially that a home user would never experience - I personally find paying customers intimidating mainly because I aim to strive for quality in a market where quality is seen as the big chains like sbs and costa ring out where coffees appear at the press of a button ect.

Anyway, quality and quantity are very hard to combine especially with a substance like coffee - because it does genuinely just go wrong sometimes I believe the skill of the barista is in reduction of waste while maximising consistent output. And as many have said to me it's better to make 95% of your output to 95% of your potential than 50% of your output to 100% of your potential.

Another analogy about coffee I've come to is like cyclists and bike shops - you won't ever see the best cyclists in local bike shops mainly because they do all their maintenance / shopping online and don't need the shop , meaning most of the custom the shop deals with on the day to day are the odds and ends that may well want to get into cycling but don't know an awful lot / how to go about doing fairly average tasks. It's like me as a coffee enthusiast saying I serve drinks to a customer base that 100% respect what I do behind the bar - and I know for a fact that most people just see a cup of coffee as 'a cup of coffee' ..... But that's just how it is, for now anyway.

Coffee industry eh. All very very interesting stuff! Especially when you start throwing in is striving for perfection viable for business...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Must be quite frustrating for a coffee perfection to serve coffee all day and accept that the perfection and ability to just discard an average shot can be accepted in the commercial world. The irony is that as you have said, most of the customers that come into your shot would probably not notice the difference between a knockout shot and a good shot, therefore I agree the focus should be on consistently good shots of coffee producing a consistent quality coffee that people would like to drink again.

The challenge for independents is to get the purely espresso shots right and steam the milk to the right temperature and consistency, tis coupled to a great roasted bean or blend will get them coming back and get the recommendations.


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

My local hospital is running a sanremo Verona but they are churning crap out, I don't believe they are implementing any training they've had. The coffee is shiny over roasted too, so it's a none starter as it is but it's just a massive contractor and no one cares







I'd love to get the gig of going round training them all.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Here's a question:

Is it ok to complain to a barista who you feel didn't put out the shot which you paid for?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Kyle548 said:


> Here's a question: Is it ok to complain to a barista who you feel didn't put out the shot which you paid for?


Short answer - yes! It's only through providing constructive feedback that the outlet will get the message. If the coffee is poor - send it back and explain why. A good outlet will welcome constructive feedback and, hopefully, learn and improve. Those who aren't interested should be avoided and left to customers who aren't interested in quality.

Was in Atkinson's, Lancaster, last week which has recently installed a beautifully restored 1960's Faema double lever. The coffee there is, generally, excellent - usually go for the syphon but, last week, went for an espresso which was poor. The barista who pulled it, is new and learning. She left the lever down pre-infusing the puck for well over 60 secs which made me wince, whilst she took another order. When it was served, it wasn't acceptable so I sent it back. The replacement, although perfectly made, was a tad too acidic and fruity for my taste so I got talking to the guy who made it and said I preferred a slightly darker roast level and ended up agreeing to go in this morning to demonstrate some Londinium beans on the Faema.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I would (and have) complained about the quality of coffee. Urban coffee in Brum got an ear-full from myself on the bitter muck presented to us recently, they consider themselves to be the higher-end and higher-priced scale of the market & yet what we tasted I would have expected in Costa. In that particular instance the barista did engage in a conversation and pull a few more shots to dial-in however no apology ever came. Whats the point of the blackboard reading ''toffee , chocolate and gentle peach acidity'' when in the cup it was unflushed group , ash and charcoal - it does damage to the specialty coffee industry. The more quality-focused places should graciously recieve feedback and thankyou for it, the same way a top restaurant would.

Fair enough some customers might not find something to their taste even if it is technically executed to perfection & complain it is wrong/bad. Shops need to take both types of feedback and deal with in the correct manner.


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I've had complaints and I've essentially just replaced the drink with another, often the problem can be dealt with and any negativity quashed with immediate resolution of a customers problem.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

If the coffee joint pride themselves on quality then by all means complain, but if its a hospital, restaurant, cafe, bar etc, it doesn't mater how good their equipment, if you complain about the coffee you are going to be met with a total lack of caring.

The last restaurant I worked in I spent a day cleaning gunk out of the grinder and machine, got the coffee so it was just about acceptable (the machinery was too far gone for anything else) and all the staff complained because it took longer for the coffee to pour, they weren't interested in it tasting better for their customers.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Kyle548 said:


> Here's a question:
> 
> Is it ok to complain to a barista who you feel didn't put out the shot which you paid for?


If I'm in a coffee shop with a proper barista and they don't take enough care then I tell them.

Usually if I'm in the gym or somewhere that isn't based around coffee I don't even bother because they generally have no training and are totally oblivious as to what makes a good coffee.


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## bignorry (Mar 19, 2013)

when its sit in, served in a porcelain cup then its easier to comment on quality,

but in a paper cup ,by the time it cools for drinking its too far to walk back and complain.I dont just complain ,I will also tell them if its nice .

Credit where credits due.


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## CoffeeDoc (Dec 26, 2012)

My concern is that this could easily describe my situation at home, good toys incompetent user!


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

bignorry said:


> when its sit in, served in a porcelain cup then its easier to comment on quality,
> 
> but in a paper cup ,by the time it cools for drinking its too far to walk back and complain.I dont just complain ,I will also tell them if its nice .
> 
> Credit where credits due.


I was with a work colleague last week and we both needed a caffeine hit. Only place handy was Nero. I ordered a latte and he ordered a cap, both to take out. I watched with amazement as the so called basista made two absolutely identical drinks, using some milk that had been sitting around in a jug for a while and re-steamed. And when he made it, he pressed a button on the espresso machine which had a picture of two full cups on it. Not sure exactly what that symbol means, but the shot was automatic and huge - almost filled the large paper cups 2/3 full.

Needles to say, it was not drinkable. To top it all off, while he was doing it he was instructing and training a 'trainee barista'.

That sad, even if they are underpaid, I can't agree with the comment that a barista should be paid the same as a chef. The two are not comparable IMO.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Volumetric shot controls are common on high-end consumer and commercial machines....

Not just Nero super autos.

It's so you can pull a shot and steam without worrying about the shot, among other things.

That said, getting back to poor service, I wouldn't say that I'm afraid of confronting a barista about a poorly prepared drink, but for some reason thought of it makes me feel really uncomfortable.

I kind of expect to have a bad drink if I order out, so I kind of feel like it's my fault for ordering anyway.....

I know I should get a good drink, but I have been disappointed too many times....

One that sticks in memory is when a customer had a late or something prepared and the barista only pulled half the shot into get cup.

Then, when I ordered an espresso, I received the other half, crema already faded and luke warm.

I was like "your serving me this?"; "I only pulled it like 5 mins ago".

It tasted really bitter.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

autopilot said:


> I was with a work colleague last week and we both needed a caffeine hit. Only place handy was Nero. I ordered a latte and he ordered a cap, both to take out. I watched with amazement as the so called basista made two absolutely identical drinks, using some milk that had been sitting around in a jug for a while and re-steamed. And when he made it, he pressed a button on the espresso machine which had a picture of two full cups on it. Not sure exactly what that symbol means, but the shot was automatic and huge - almost filled the large paper cups 2/3 full.
> 
> Needles to say, it was not drinkable. To top it all off, while he was doing it he was instructing and training a 'trainee barista'.
> 
> That sad, even if they are underpaid,* I can't agree with the comment that a barista should be paid the same as a chef. The two are not comparable IMO*.


A barista at Colonna and Smalls versus a chef at Little Chef - discuss!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Volumetrics has its place. the skill is dialling-in , in the first place....and then keeping it dialled in


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> A barista at Colonna and Smalls versus a chef at Little Chef - discuss!


In my experience places like littlechef employ 'cooks', lead by a 'kitchen manager'


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Chefs probably only get paid more as they were such long hours compared to baristas. Unless you're working in a fairly good restaurant the hourly rate for chefs is pretty poor.


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## bignorry (Mar 19, 2013)

I think the problem arises from us as a society not appreciating quality any more.People are more interested in what they have bought or where they bought it ,than the quality of the actual product. In coffee terms just going to Starbucks and getting a "halfdecaffafrappacappasludgecup" is more important than what they are drinking.So Starbucks know this and dont care who pulls it as long as it gets pulled.Being a plumber I see it with "HANDYMEN" doing all sorts of jobs and customers quite happily paying for poor quality workmanship.I dont know who Colonna and smalls are but if I go into little chef then I dont have high expectations for quality and I think the bosses know this.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Completely agree with Big n weather it is coffee /food in pubs /handymen-tradesmen and many other walks of life, discerning people are few and far between.

With many people quantity is more important than quality.


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## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

bignorry said:


> I think the problem arises from us as a society not appreciating quality any more.People are more interested in what they have bought or where they bought it ,than the quality of the actual product. In coffee terms just going to Starbucks and getting a "halfdecaffafrappacappasludgecup" is more important than what they are drinking.So Starbucks know this and dont care who pulls it as long as it gets pulled.Being a plumber I see it with "HANDYMEN" doing all sorts of jobs and customers quite happily paying for poor quality workmanship.I dont know who Colonna and smalls are but if I go into little chef then I dont have high expectations for quality and I think the bosses know this.


I see similarities with the state of beer, pubs and real ale in the 70s. Folk drank Double Diamond cos the Ad men told them it 'worked wonders' then 'followed the bear' to know lager!! Carling Black Label is still at it. All icy tasteless gassy weak pee heavily marketed and pushed in bars by the 'Big Six' Brewers. Come the embryonic CAMRA mid 70s, which I joined, and in time the big brewers started to offer their own real ales, served by bar staff who only knew how to roll pressurused kegs around the cellar, connect the chiller and serve. The number of times we were served cloudy, rancid pints in some of these National brewer's pubs to be told "its meant to be like this Sir, it's the new Real Ale!!!!" Now how things have changed, real ale in almost every pub, micro breweries everywhere, guest real ales even in tied houses, tho sadly too often only from their own "portfolio", but customers do send back 'cornering' pints mostly without argument by the bar staff.

Dare we hope the same thing might start to happen in the coffee world?? Are the third wave shops and artisan roasters the embryonic Real Coffee movement, who will open up the eyes of the Chain Coffee Sheep who go to the same places with their loyalty cards and sit in the best located pavement cafés ('cos the chains can afford them!) and habitually drinking pints of "Laaartay" topped with Matey Bubble Bath style foam??

How long before we all have better educated consumers, as in the beer movement, who push for change and we see quality offerings served by folks who care about the end product? Will we see chain places ditching pint mugs, flavoured cordials, marshmallows etc, and listing their local roasters Blends and SOs, serving drinkable espresso (!) and chatting knowledgeably with us about their latest brewed coffee ??

Ah well, pint of Watneys Red Barrel anyone............;-)

Ian


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> Volumetric shot controls are common on high-end consumer and commercial machines....
> 
> Not just Nero super autos.
> 
> It's so you can pull a shot and steam without worrying about the shot, among other things.


fair enough, but why was the shot so big (I'm guessing it was about 5foz). Just because the grinder was not dialled in correctly?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

autopilot said:


> fair enough, but why was the shot so big (I'm guessing it was about 5foz). Just because the grinder was not dialled in correctly?


Each of those buttons is programmable, so the button he used would have been set up to simply push out too much water.


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

El carajillo said:


> Completely agree with Big n weather it is coffee /food in pubs /handymen-tradesmen and many other walks of life, discerning people are few and far between.
> 
> With many people quantity is more important than quality.


I agree with him in as much as very few people really recognise and appreciate true quality, but I don't agree that it's a new or increasing trend in society. I think we tent to look at the past with rose tinted glasses. It's the same argument audiophiles make when defending the superior quality of vinyl compared to MP3 - they completely fail to remember that we once all used crappy tapes. We are just in a transitional period, that's all.

Its not that long ago we were almost entirely a nation of instant coffee drinkers. Look at all the cafe's selling quality food and drink in general and compare it the the state of play 20 years ago (greasy spoons and rubbish sarnies). I personally think things are on the up, even in this economic climate.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

autopilot said:


> fair enough, but why was the shot so big (I'm guessing it was about 5foz). Just because the grinder was not dialled in correctly?


Basically massive volume, incorrect shot dialling, improper technique Andorra knowledge, take your pick.


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

I think in a lot of cases, it's terrible beans that dictates how bad the final drink ends up. Even fast pours with good beans taste a lot better than most cafe drinks, so I'd think bad beans is perhaps the bigger problem than bad baristi. Case in point a cafe at Heathrow serving the local office crowd recently. Mazzer SJ grinders, La Spaz machine. As far as could be seen, good technique by the persons behind the bar. Really terrible coffee.

Of course, the people kept on buying it though. The only other person in the office who had also recognised it was dreck was a young Kiwi woman. Why do the Kiwis and Ozzies appreciate good coffee (and good baristi) when Brits generally don't? The barista pay in those countries strikes me as a bit OTT to be honest, but it does demonstrate how highly the craft is regarded. Meanwhile, what motivation is there for cafes here to improve their offering while people keep on drinking it regardless? I'm going to do my bit and contact that cafe owner anyway.


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