# EK43 choking Sage DTP...



## jonbutler88 (Dec 31, 2015)

Hi All,

Total espresso newbie, the shots described below are literally my first, so be nice









I set my DTP up according to instructions (without the water filter though as I am using volvic), and tried to pull my first shot. I had 14g Rave Fudge blend beans in the double shot single walled basket (probably the only one I'll ever use), with the first shot ground at 1.8 on the original EK43 dial (people using the 3fe dial sound like they're operating around here). Most of it made it into the basket (I don't have a jam funnel or anything like that yet), and I tamped pretty firmly. Puck looked ok, so I popped it into the machine, cup under, scales on and started timing. No liquid coming out the bottom at all after 30s or so, so I stopped the machine and scratched my head. Though perhaps the machine was being a pain, so tried again with the same parameters but a coarser grind (3.5). Saw the first drops after 25s or so, but again this was way too slow. I then stopped to read the manual







Sadly this doesn't really say what dose I should be using, other than 15-18g for that basket, so I upped it to 16g, coarsened up the grind even more to 4, and tamped much lighter. Going for about 1:2 (although I'm aware this isn't necessarily true for the EK), I got 30.5g out in 52s, which is still way too slow. Tasted massively unextracted, and also had epic channelling, probably due to terrible distribution but also likely not tamping hard enough. Down the sink it went...

Does anyone with an EK and a normal dial want to share their usual grind settings? Or can someone see what's going very wrong here? Don't make me strap my phone to my head and film an embarrassingly bad coffee routine


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

Any chance the basket's pressurized? Not sure if by single walled you mean a normal basket or something else


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

Wow very impressive routine knowledge and grinder for a newbie!!! I'm by no means an authority but what basket are you using? I would recommend getting a VST basket as that way you can compare better with what others are doing and they are particularly good with the EK. 18g baskets are popular.

What burrs have you got? Coffee or new coffee or Turkish? Also for grind sizes to be comparable your burrs must be zeroed appropriately. I believe john Gordon sticks to between 3 and 4 on the 3fe and he uses Turkish burrs. The 3fe dial goes up to 22 I think with a gap of one between 22 and 1 (there for 23 equals 360 degrees). You can convert that to an equivalent angle and dial width on yours I guess. Hope that's helpful


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

bronc said:


> Any chance the basket's pressurized? Not sure if by single walled you mean a normal basket or something else


He said it's a single walled, so unpressurised.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Forget what other people do, go as coarse as you need to. Try about 2.5 and work from there.

Most others use much lighter roasts than fudge which need a finer grind.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

Firstly, congrats on the EK!

hadn't heard anything you're end in a while so was wondering what was happening...any pics?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Forget what other people do, go as coarse as you need to. Try about 2.5 and work from there.
> 
> Most others use much lighter roasts than fudge which need a finer grind.


^^^^ this

Fudge is medium plus

My settings will best no relation with the coffee I use .


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

alexferdi said:


> Wow very impressive routine knowledge and grinder for a newbie!!! I'm by no means an authority but what basket are you using? I would recommend getting a VST basket as that way you can compare better with what others are doing and they are particularly good with the EK. 18g baskets are popular.
> 
> What burrs have you got? Coffee or new coffee or Turkish? Also for grind sizes to be comparable your burrs must be zeroed appropriately. I believe john Gordon sticks to between 3 and 4 on the 3fe and he uses Turkish burrs. The 3fe dial goes up to 22 I think with a gap of one between 22 and 1 (there for 23 equals 360 degrees). You can convert that to an equivalent angle and dial width on yours I guess. Hope that's helpful


Do not get VST baskets. Your portafilter is 54mm while VST are for 58mm portafilters


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## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

ridland said:


> Do not get VST baskets. Your portafilter is 54mm while VST are for 58mm portafilters


Ha! Shows how much I know! Forget my drivel


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Don't assume your grinder is calibrated the same as someone elses.

Just go coarser until you achieve a better extraction.

I'd up the dose to 18g or so too, but that's more personal preference.


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## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

Either you're grinding too fine or tamping too hard.


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## jonbutler88 (Dec 31, 2015)

Hi All,

Thanks for the quick responses. I'm happy to keep going coarser with this bean, but I'm a little surprised as I grind for brewed at around 7-8, I was expecting espresso to be much finer - unless I'm massively overextracting my v60s and not noticing somehow... I didn't want to grind so coarse I'd be doomed to underextract even if I got the timing right if that makes sense...

@bongo, yep still alive. I will post some pics when the parts of my kitchen that are "in shot" of my coffee equipment are as clean as the areas for coffee equipment









Reading about tamping pressure, it seems that after a point it does very little to tamp any harder, but my impression was that tamping firmly each time gives you consistency rather than tamping lighter and trying to replicate that tamp. Does that sound right? Or do we have some light tampers here?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Why fudge?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Don't worry so much about getting the "timing right". You say the shots take too long but are under-extracted, by definition they are not too long to be over-extracted.

Pull at a longer ratio too.

There is no correct tamping pressure, I don't see how doing it hard is any more consistent than doing it normally. Just squeeze out the air.

The EK-43 is reckoned to make less boulders, bringing down the average grind size (a trend observed by independent parties), if you over compact the puck you may make it harder for water to evenly penetrate, causing low extractions & overly long shot times, even at an otherwise useful grind setting.

You are unlikely to be over-extracting your V60's without noticing...but like with espresso, you can grind too fine & drop back into under-extraction, rather than infinitely over-extracting with ever finer grinds.

Normal tamp pressure is a few kg upwards, a few kg isn't actually very much, even when tamping light I can exceed 5kg without thinking about it.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

If you can tip the portafilter upside down without the coffee falling out of the basket you have tamped hard enough.

Forget the hard tamp requirement.


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## jonbutler88 (Dec 31, 2015)

The rationale behind tamping hard came from here: http://www.baristahustle.com/how-hard-should-you-tamp/. It makes sense we're tamping to try and get the air out, but I don't understand how it's possible to "over-compact" a puck that has no air left in it though...

@jeebsy, I'm using the fudge blend beans to make my mistakes on before I crack into some beans I'd be less happy binning. It sounds like this strategy might be flawed if the fudge blend grinds significantly differently to the lighter beans I usually drink though. I'll be interested to see the difference for myself when I try something lighter.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jonbutler88 said:


> The rationale behind tamping hard came from here: http://www.baristahustle.com/how-hard-should-you-tamp/. It makes sense we're tamping to try and get the air out, but I don't understand how it's possible to "over-compact" a puck that has no air left in it though...


It still has some air in it, some voids between & around the grinds (the finer you grind, the smaller they are), if it didn't, it would be a solid block & no liquid would pass. Tamping with unnecessary force, or hitting the puck with full pressure before it has been fully wetted/consolidated could see you effectively closing off areas of the puck to the brew water.


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Glenn said:


> If you can tip the portafilter upside down without the coffee falling out of the basket you have tamped hard enough.
> 
> Forget the hard tamp requirement.


Be prepared to swear a lot when you do this at 6.30am when you need to be out of the door 5 minutes ago and realise that the answer to the question is "needed to be a little bit harder"


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

Weirdest grinder to machine combo ever!

Got some photos of little and large?


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

TomBurtonArt said:


> Weirdest grinder to machine combo ever!
> 
> Got some photos of little and large?


Someone who took the oft offered but rarely followed advice to put the money into the best grinder you can afford and upgrade machine second.


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

ridland said:


> Someone who took the oft offered but rarely followed advice to put the money into the best grinder you can afford and upgrade machine second.


It's such a dramatic difference that it's amazing me, really want to see what they look like next to each other.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

IMAG2418 by wjheenan, on Flickr

  IMAG2419 by wjheenan, on Flickr


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## jonbutler88 (Dec 31, 2015)

Next to each other?! I'd be so lucky to have a kitchen that would accommodate that







As I have a full size EK43 (@bongo got the last LE), I have to have it sideways on the counter, and can barely open the cupboard behind it. The DTP is about half the height, I'm sure you can imagine the contrast!









I've swapped out the original hopper for an aeropress funnel as I single dose and the original hopper fitting (like @jeebsy has on his) tends to retain bits of beans (or even whole beans sometimes) on the rubber gasket. Currently the funnel is taped to the top, but I plan to find a bit of plastic to fit the two parts together. I had also planned to mod the base for a smaller one, but my options for that look to have closed off, so I'm basically stuck with "the beast" in my kitchen now.

Honestly I've never been happier!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Ek43 paired with a DTP!

If there was ever a demonstration of 'grinder is king' it's right here.


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

jonbutler88 said:


> I had also planned to mod the base for a smaller one


 Hi there! How far did you get with that project ? was thinking to do the same it doesn't seem to be a difficult piece to make as the motor just sits on the top of the stand...


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