# Sticky  DB solenoid noises, brew & descale



## urbanbumpkin

I've just run a descale cycle on my sage DB and when it finished as stage of the cycle it kept making a buzzing solenoid sound until you pressed one cup button to move onto the next stage.

I've just tried pulling a shot as it tastes awful. I'm guessing its descale solution. I did do 2 clean water cycle when descaling

Any suggestions?


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## urbanbumpkin

Please see below clip during the descale cycle.








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## ajohn

I've had this on my previous DB also when brewing. I'd suspect scale and that was the case when brewing. It collects on the seal in the solenoid. That prevent it from sealing completely after a fashion but the problem is that unless the magnetic circuit in it is fully closed it rattles. With magnetic circuits the contact between the parts involved have to be fully closed. You can replace the whole thing or subject to the ones they list just the coil, The whole thing
OLAB Solenoid Valve for Sage SES980 SES990 Oracle Espresso Machine 240V Set15 | eBay

During descale I didn't delve far and just carried on. Didn't happen every time, One thought was that the solenoid was on for much longer than usual which means it gets hotter. That increases the resistance of the wire in the coil. That will reduce the closing force. Changing the coil only - pass I don't know if it would help. It might.

The solenoid can also be cleaned. *Do unplug the machine.* I removed the whole thing. Probably possible to remove the coil - nut on top, unscrew it and lift the coil off,  Take the discharge pipe off 1st, Then unscrew the fixing screws and lift the body off. There are a couple of short thin stainless tube bits of pipe that go through the aluminum part it's mounted on. They are loose. With the coil off you will see the next thing to unscrew. The coil is the black thing. Make sure you put the metal part of the solenoid back in the same orientation, If removed with the coil on that is more automatic. Only nip up the nut that holds the coil in place.

If you disconnect the connections to the coil and take the lot out the spade connectors don't come off easily. I suspect they latch. Probably a bit of bulge in the insulation that has to be depressed.  I used pliers so not sure and didn't check for that. These things can be pretty tight anyway.

The solenoid is pricey as it has a stainless base. Rare in even commercial machines and rather expensive but Sage sell consumer stuff so worry more about materials. Brass can leach zinc.

 There is a bit of a design fault on the solenoid. Ideally it would be mounted upside down as easier for the discharge to get out but that would make it more difficult to fit and replace.

A good backflush followed by 2 clean water ones might help. I just wiped the sludge off with a finger,


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## urbanbumpkin

ajohn said:


> I've had this on my previous DB also when brewing. I'd suspect scale and that was the case when brewing. It collects on the seal in the solenoid. That prevent it from sealing completely after a fashion but the problem is that unless the magnetic circuit in it is fully closed it rattles. With magnetic circuits the contact between the parts involved have to be fully closed. You can replace the whole thing or subject to the ones they list just the coil, The whole thing
> OLAB Solenoid Valve for Sage SES980 SES990 Oracle Espresso Machine 240V Set15 | eBay
> 
> During descale I didn't delve far and just carried on. Didn't happen every time, One thought was that the solenoid was on for much longer than usual which means it gets hotter. That increases the resistance of the wire in the coil. That will reduce the closing force. Changing the coil only - pass I don't know if it would help. It might.
> 
> The solenoid can also be cleaned. *Do unplug the machine.* I removed the whole thing. Probably possible to remove the coil - nut on top, unscrew it and lift the coil off,  Take the discharge pipe off 1st, Then unscrew the fixing screws and lift the body off. There are a couple of short thin stainless tube bits of pipe that go through the aluminum part it's mounted on. They are loose. With the coil off you will see the next thing to unscrew. The coil is the black thing. Make sure you put the metal part of the solenoid back in the same orientation, If removed with the coil on that is more automatic. Only nip up the nut that holds the coil in place.
> 
> If you disconnect the connections to the coil and take the lot out the spade connectors don't come off easily. I suspect they latch. Probably a bit of bulge in the insulation that has to be depressed.  I used pliers so not sure and didn't check for that. These things can be pretty tight anyway.
> 
> The solenoid is pricey as it has a stainless base. Rare in even commercial machines and rather expensive but Sage sell consumer stuff so worry more about materials. Brass can leach zinc.
> 
> There is a bit of a design fault on the solenoid. Ideally it would be mounted upside down as easier for the discharge to get out but that would make it more difficult to fit and replace.
> 
> A good backflush followed by 2 clean water ones might help. I just wiped the sludge off with a finger,


Thanks Ajohn
I did replace the Solenoid approx. 18 months ago as it was making a buzzing sound when I was pulling shots. *The replacement solenoid doesn't make this noise when pulling shots and has been fine since.* I'm in South Birmingham and get soft water, so scale has never been an issue on any of my coffee machines (so far), but I still do descale ever 6 months or so.

I had put it through a cleaning cycle and then flushed it through with clean water. I might try a descale cycle with clean water to see if it improves.

I think it worth opening it up an checking what's happening inside for leaks etc too at the weekend


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## ajohn

Solenoid too hot could cause the problem. It's only briefly when pulling a shot. Maybe try going in to descale straight from a cold machine. The solenoid is easy to clean. There is a youtube video on doing the same thing with a BE and it's derivatives, some are similar to the DB, The DTP lacks solenoids.

My previous DB was a refurb with some months guarantee and came "pre scaled up". I descaled twice on the trot, and maybe 3 times in very short period of time and that evened up brew and steam boiler heat up time. I joined here in 2017 with a BE but lust etc caused me to buy the DB not long after. Obviously used when I bought it going on scale and the need to clean up the metalwork so could be ~5years old or more before a triac blew. Think it's that but haven't checked yet. Nothing else replaced. Just one solenoid clean. Sage's refurb outlet do not seem to be active anymore and may have got machines from some retailer. Refurb - mixed comments on them so thought find out for myself. It has a lot of appeals so have bought a brand new one.

I'm in S B'ham as well but descale more often than you. I set the machine for harder water than we get. Not altered this one yet. I'll be using Amazon filters and probably 3 monthly changes. I hardly use steam. Mostly a puff now and again as a test. The machine is only on when it is being used and if me drinking just 2 or 3 shots a day plus hot water. Heat up time is about the same as it takes me to load the portafilter - a review saying 1/2 hr to allow it to heat up caused me a lot of amusement.

@Rincewind might like to change the title of this thread to DB solenoid noises, brew & descale. Sticky maybe?


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## Rincewind

ajohn said:


> ...@Rincewind might like to change the title of this thread to DB solenoid noises, brew & descale. Sticky maybe?


Good suggestion John...done


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## urbanbumpkin

Thanks both

Just to confirm the Solenoid *doesn't *make the buzzing noise when brewing. This only happens during the descale cycle


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## urbanbumpkin

So I managed to take the top off the Sage DB this afternoon.
The removal of the solenoid showed discolouring on the plates of the Solenoid. Plus it looks like one of the gaskets is starting to perish. If I can source the gaskets for this do you think this will resolve the descale issue?

When I fired up the machine I could also see that one there's at least 3 o ring leaking on the steamboiler and the descale warning is still on.





































I'm guessing this will be the time to replace all of the o rings


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## ajohn

Maybe try polishing up the surface the solenoid is mounted on with metal polish - silvo maybe. CIF?? Use something flat - bit of wood etc. Looks like your little bits of tube may still be in that part, I wonder if you fully tightened down when you changed the solenoid?

O rings  sounds like it is time. I think I sorted correctly in another thread you were in. I did fit a couple in my BE when I did some self inflicted damage to it. Taking out a virtually new one leaked when it went back in.
_I ordered these off RS. Large size 527-9778 and small size 527-9756. The small size should be the same as used in the BE etc. _








Sage Dual Boiler replacement parts


Where's a good place to source a new group gasket for a sage dual boiler? I've had a quick look online, the one on amazon doesn't look that great. I'm also after some o rings and i may as well do the pump too.




www.coffeeforums.co.uk





People can be tempted to fit larger sizes as they swell in size from use. They look bigger than they did originally when taken out, That's normal but fitting larger can be really bad news. The OZ site mentioned above goes into this.

I spent a lot of time looking for O rings good against steam and hot water. They don't exist especially with rapid pressure changes. Silicone looks to be better than many and questionable if there really is anything better that could be used.

Scale on stainless parts, A brass pencil brush used on the gentle side of things should be ok, Or silvo / CIF where it can be used or try first on a rag.

 I used a descaler I thought would be ok on the BE. Fortunately they did sell the rather large inner aluminum shower screen as a spare then, Wrong photo shown, an aluminum casting,


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## urbanbumpkin

This was the thread when I'd received the replaced the solenoid June 2020!!!









Sage DB It’s a solenoid but not as we know it


I had a replacement solenoid arrive a couple of days ago but it has a green ring gasket rather than the white disc gasket. The seller just said use the ring ones instead of the white disc gasket. My only concern is are the pin just going to sit the same? Would the pins sitting slightly lower...




www.coffeeforums.co.uk





I might see if I can gave a play with the old solenoid if I can dig this out. I think I would have kept the old white gaskets. Is it worth soaking the metal part of the old solenoid in descaling solutions?


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## ajohn

I have obtained 2 solenoids of different makes but not Sage, The same style solenoid action wise is used on many machines, They are sometimes called 1 2 valves. The ports on them are marked 1 and 2.

Siral solenoid - green O rings
Parker solenoid (DaveUK's favorite) dull black, not shiny so not neoprene or viton - viton isn't too good for this sort use,

In both cases the rings just about clip in the depression they fit in. Can you measure the depressions for them in the Sage solenoid?


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## ajohn

urbanbumpkin said:


> Is it worth soaking the metal part of the old solenoid in descaling solutions?


You'll need to dismantle them but  don't soak the coil. Sage or Puly descaler would be fine,


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## ajohn

The web give info one O ring color codes white is interesting. Sage may do that because it's a different size rather than material


WhiteNBR | *Viton® | Silicone | EPDM | PTFE (Teflon)*


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## urbanbumpkin

Did you try out the or rings from RS-online?

I think you we recommending these (see below), but some other sites were recommending a larger o ring?

*O-Ring Seal, 6.07mm Bore, 3/8in Outer Diameter*


as against the ones from Oz which measurements suggest should be these, part number I posted.


*O-Ring Seal, 5.28mm Bore, 11/32in Outer Diameter*


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## ajohn

I quoted from the earlier post. Sizes to match the O rings I bought from Oz and mentioned in this post and copy pasted it in this thread above.
They are specified by bore and section.

Your green O ring problem on the solenoid may be down to some one thinking fit a bigger one. It generally isn't a good idea as pressure builds up rapidly when they are compressed. The sealing pressure is set when the parts are designed. It accounts for a number of things even how long they will last. Not just the sealing pressure. That often comes out higher than needed.


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## urbanbumpkin

Thanks @ajohn. The Green O rings for the solenoid came with the supplier and was recommended to be used by them and also DaveCUK on a thread when I queried this.

I've dug out the old solenoid, I might clean it up and try using the old white gaskets or just just use the white Gaskets on the new solenoid.


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## urbanbumpkin

ajohn said:


> In both cases the rings just about clip in the depression they fit in. Can you measure the depressions for them in the Sage solenoid?


The internal Measurements of the depression on the solenoid are 9.20mm-9.22mm (measured them with digital callipers)

The teflon disk measured 9.57mm


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## ajohn

They should clip into the solenoid, If not best measure the depth of the depression and may be able to work out an O ring size. The shots you posted suggest to me that section used was too big.

I think the tubes should be pushed into the teflon part before fitting. You may be able to lever them out of the mounting point with a pin or something like that.

 I can hardly see what I am typing. Optician just enlarged my pupils to examine my eyes. Best give them a rest for some hours.


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## urbanbumpkin

ajohn said:


> They should clip into the solenoid, If not best measure the depth of the depression and may be able to work out an O ring size. The shots you posted suggest to me that section used was too big.


Thanks AJohn. The photo of the white Teflon disc was the original disc and the measurements were from the original Solenoid


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## urbanbumpkin

Hope the eyes are getting better


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