# Dial-in help: Gaggia Classic + Niche Zero.



## Giaxou (Aug 30, 2020)

Hi all,

I have just purchased a Niche Zero from another member and am finally setting off to learning how to pull decent shots with a Gaggia Classic. My current set up:

- Gaggia Classic (2004, 1250W, OPV set to 9 bar; Rancilio Silva wand; no PID)

- Niche Zero grinder (63mm conical steel burr single doser)

- Naked PF; 58mm double shot basket (not VST); 58mm flat metal tamper (not motta)

- Tesco ashbeck water

- Lavazza Qualita Rossa beans

I have no idea how to dial in. Would someone with a similar set up (GC+NZ) offer a holding hand along the process? Where do I start?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Grind 16.0g of beans (measured on the way out of the grinder, NOT beans added to the grinder). Shake to break up clumps, transfer carefully to PF. Tap downwards on the counter a couple of times, then a couple of side taps to level the coffee.

Place the PF into the warmed up (at least 20min) & flushed machine. Place your cup on scales under the PF & pull 48g out. Record how long it takes (time the pump runs for) & report back on what you think of it. If it is absurdly sour, grind a tad finer.

Where to start on grind setting? Start on the coarser end, maybe 20-22?

Report back before getting into a frenzy of shot making. Drink the whole shot (if you can) note how anything changes from top to bottom.

Personally, I would use Volvic, or Waitrose Lockhills over Ashbeck.


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## olivier (Jan 4, 2016)

Hey Giaxou, hope the Niche is working fine!

As for dialing in, I was using this one around the 20-25 mark if I remember correctly. You might have trouble with the Lavazza beans as they might not be fresh enough. Using beans from a reputable roaster that are 10 to 30 days post roast will yield much much better results.

I also think the Gaggia Classic likes slightly higher dose, but I haven't used one in 3 years, so don't be afraid of trying different doses. 16g would be on the lower side of the range, and you probably won't want to go over 20g. In any case there needs to be some room between the coffee puck and the shower screen of the machine.
I'd personally start at 18g, but YMMV.

Choose a ratio (as a starting point, 1:2 for darker roast should be fine, 1:3 for lighter roasted beans).
Pull a shot, and check two things:
- how long did it take to reach your target output? Aim for 25-35 sec.
- how does it taste? This is where things become complicated as taste needs to be trained, and preferences vary across people.

As a rule of thumb, if it's flowed fast and tastes sour, you want to either grind finer / increase the dose of coffe grounds / pull a longer ratio (say 1:3 instead of 1:2). Only change one variable at a time.

If that wasn't complicated enougn, I'd add that this all assumes good puck preparation. You could have your grinder perfectly dialed in and have a shot that tastes bad because of channeling etc.

*TL;DR: *I'd use fresh beans, grind 18g, aim for 36g output in around 25-35 sec, adjust grind to get in that range, and adjust to taste from there.

PS: if you haven't done so, I'd modify the OPV pressure on the Gaggia to around 9 bar. It's not mandatory, but it'll help.


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## moppy (Oct 12, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Grind 16.0g of beans (measured on the way out of the grinder, NOT beans added to the grinder). Shake to break up clumps, transfer carefully to PF. Tap downwards on the counter a couple of times, then a couple of side taps to level the coffee.
> 
> Place the PF into the warmed up (at least 20min) & flushed machine. Place your cup on scales under the PF & pull 48g out. Record how long it takes (time the pump runs for) & report back on what you think of it. If it is absurdly sour, grind a tad finer.


 Can I ask why you suggest 1:3 as a starting ratio? Most everywhere I see seems to suggest 1:2.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

moppy said:


> Can I ask why you suggest 1:3 as a starting ratio? Most everywhere I see seems to suggest 1:2.


 It's just a ratio, it doesn't determine anything regarding flavour balance, only concentration. There is no correct/incorrect brew ratio, if you are sure you want & can achieve good shots at 1:2, go ahead.

At 1:3 you stand a little better chance of achieving a balanced extraction. If you do this, then you can work towards making shorter shots whilst retaining the balance, so that things don't turn sour.


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## moppy (Oct 12, 2020)

Well I've got a 1kg bag of Chocolate Point to learn my Gaggia Classic with and a day off tomorrow so I guess I'll give it a go!

Thanks


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

moppy said:


> Well I've got a 1kg bag of Chocolate Point to learn my Gaggia Classic with and a day off tomorrow so I guess I'll give it a go!
> 
> Thanks


 Good luck, try not to get into a shot making frenzy, make changes in grind only to start with, ideally in one direction until the wheels come off then backtrack to last best result.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

moppy said:


> Well I've got a 1kg bag of Chocolate Point to learn my Gaggia Classic with and a day off tomorrow so I guess I'll give it a go!
> 
> Thanks


 How did you get on?

I currently am struggling myself.

I have a good 1-2 extraction at 20s but now moving to 25 and now 30 and still doesn't taste great.

Hope your journey is going better 🤣


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tinkstar said:


> How did you get on?
> 
> I currently am struggling myself.
> 
> ...


 What's "good" about a 1:2 extraction that doesn't taste great?

Are you absolutely sure you need a 1:2 shot?

Don't evaluate the shot by seconds, try and see the difference that grind setting makes.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Don't evaluate the shot by seconds, try and see the difference that grind setting makes.


 What do you mean by this?

Always taste sharp and bitter.

Gone through 500g of beans trying to dial in, and pretty much always bitter.

Working on 1-2 as that's the normal suggestion. Might try the 1-3 as suggested above.

I have started from really quick pulls and slowing down but its pretty much always been a not very nice taste (could be the beans as using the same as op from tesco i have bought some fresh stuff from blackcat and hoping to notice a big difference.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tinkstar said:


> What do you mean by this?
> 
> Always taste sharp and bitter.
> 
> ...


 If you pull 1:2, or 1:3 (stick to the same ratio when dialing in grind) you should be grinding finer until the shot's flavour balances out. This has no requirement to happen in a specific number of seconds. The grind size drives the extraction, record grind size & make a note of time. Score your shots too, then you can correlate grind setting against best flavour.

"Always sharp" suggests under-extracted. So you need a finer grind, if you go so fine shots choke & get worse, try a longer brew ratio. The more water you push through the puck, the better your chance of balancing extraction.


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## moppy (Oct 12, 2020)

I'm in a similar place, I go for 18g in and 40g out which I get in about 25-30s.

I've tried heeding your advice MWJB and freeing myself from this way of thinking but I feel like I need to have some kind of guideline to experiment out from.

My shots sometimes taste "good", but there's always a level of sourness that I don't always like.

I really want to pull multiple shots back to back to compare immediately the difference that grind, ratio etc make but that's not so easy with the Classic when you have to wait atleast 5-10 minutes between each shot.

I've got 500g of Chocolate Point left in the freezer and a bag of Sweet Shop from Square Mile. Unsure whether to persevere with CP or switch to Sweet Shop and see if I just don't like the taste of CP


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## Gav86 (Dec 10, 2020)

moppy said:


> I'm in a similar place, I go for 18g in and 40g out which I get in about 25-30s.
> 
> I've tried heeding your advice MWJB and freeing myself from this way of thinking but I feel like I need to have some kind of guideline to experiment out from.
> 
> ...


 We've just started on chocolate Point and through a little experimentation on our classic I've found it tastes great with a hotter extraction temp, so my process for CP is....flush the group head, waited for the brew light to come on, then flicked the steam button for 10s before pulling my shot.

I run a ratio of 1:2.1 with 20g in an 18-22 IMS basket with around 42g out in around 35-40s.

The first shot I pulled tasted amazing, same process as described above (temp surfing) but that was with 22g in the basket, 46g out but it took about 60s to pull! I was expecting terrible but it was amazing!

I have a classic with similar mods to the OP, with an MDF (I'm on as fine as the MDF will go). I'm managing until our niche comes in March....


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

moppy said:


> I'm in a similar place, I go for 18g in and 40g out which I get in about 25-30s.
> 
> I've tried heeding your advice MWJB and freeing myself from this way of thinking but I feel like I need to have some kind of guideline to experiment out from.
> 
> My shots sometimes taste "good", but there's always a level of sourness that I don't always like.


 You're using 2 conflicting targets. If you are pulling 18:40g, then stick to that and steer taste with grind size. It may happen in 25-30s (too narrow a target anyway), it may not, but the time isn't doing anything by itself, it's a side effect of grind, which is doing the work.

If everything at 18:40g tastes sour, I'm struggling to see what is good about that (unless it's a bright coffee with notes of sour fruit, this doesn't strike me as being Chocolate point), pull 18:54g see if that improves things.


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## moppy (Oct 12, 2020)

Thanks for both your input.

My workflow is:

- ~20 minutes after machine turned on, flush group until light turns off.

- Bring 18g, transfer to PF, leveller and tamp.

- When brew light comes back on (and stays on consistently) flick the steam switch, wait 20s, turn steam off and hit brew button.

- Aim for 40g out and see how long it takes.

I'll try a longer ratio at the same grind setting today and see what happens. Essentially, I don't trust my palate to guide me to the best coffee in the most direct way but I do realise how stupid that sounds. Also I'm doubtful that my prep/temp surfing is super consistent so struggle to assign any changes in taste directly to a specific variable.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

moppy said:


> Also I'm doubtful that my prep/temp surfing is super consistent so struggle to assign any changes in taste directly to a specific variable.


 Well focus on the things you can control & be consistent with your prep. The variable you are most looking to guide you is grind, at a feasible ratio.

You're not always expecting to get the best coffee, unless you are always buying the best coffee, so 'nice', or 'very nice' will do


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## Giaxou (Aug 30, 2020)

Thank you MWJB and Olivier.

I am getting a 20g/60g shot of "Grumpy Mule Sumatra" in about 30secs which tastes just alright for my palate, grinding at point *16* on NZ.

Anything above that point and the shot is under-extracted.

Do people go as low as point 16 to get a decent taste? So far I was dialing in at around 23-/+ for various beans.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Giaxou said:


> Do people go as low as point 16 to get a decent taste? So far I was dialing in at around 23-/+ for various beans.


 You can't compare grind settings really, could be out by 4 notches or even more from one grinder to the next + they break in, you're using different equipment, water etc etc

Sometimes I grind at 8, sometimes I grind at 10, sometimes 15. When I first got I'm sure I was grinding around 18-22. No point in thinking about it, just use the notches as references for how much finer/coarser you're going and the difference it makes.

@moppy that ever present level of sourness could be because the coffee isn't rested enough, could also be low alkalinity water, the strength of the coffee (ratio) not to your taste, or even a dirty group/shower screen. Could be channelling too.


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## Gav86 (Dec 10, 2020)

Gav86 said:


> We've just started on chocolate Point and through a little experimentation on our classic I've found it tastes great with a hotter extraction temp, so my process for CP is....flush the group head, waited for the brew light to come on, then flicked the steam button for 10s before pulling my shot.
> 
> I run a ratio of 1:2.1 with 20g in an 18-22 IMS basket with around 42g out in around 35-40s.
> 
> ...


 Slight edit to this... this morning, I purposely tried a lower temp by pulling a shot without temp surfing! The result is a lot more chocolate.

I think we prefer the slightly higher temp with more of the other flavours coming through, but with out a PID it is not very exact! Something for the future I think...


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Gav86 said:


> Slight edit to this... this morning, I purposely tried a lower temp by pulling a shot without temp surfing! The result is a lot more chocolate.
> 
> I think we prefer the slightly higher temp with more of the other flavours coming through, but with out a PID it is not very exact! Something for the future I think...


 What temp are you running at? Struggling to find this in forums.

I'm struggling to get any flavours.

Bitter, sour, sharp are my only points on flavour so far.

With a cheap bean from tesco I did get some caramel taste so I know its possible 🤣


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## Aaronsheehan (Jan 25, 2021)

Where can you buy the niche zero, UK?


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## Gav86 (Dec 10, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> What temp are you running at? Struggling to find this in forums.
> 
> I'm struggling to get any flavours.
> 
> ...


 Unfortunately no idea on temp as I haven't PIDed yet. I can say it worked best flicking the steam switch on for 6s as soon as brew boiler switched off. We liked a long pull, so about 50s to get a brew ratio of 1:2.1. So 21g in and 44g out.

Id recommend only changing one variable at a time.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Dialling in is mostly about consistency in my opinion.

If you can repeat - even if it's bad - then you can make a change and know "it tastes better i'll go forward - it's worse I'll head back".

One other point you need to be mindful of, and the PID solves the problem *to a degree* (pun intended 😹) is temperature stability.

I say to a degree, because the Gaggia Classic boiler is small - about 120ml so when you turn the pump on and take say 60ml water out the water temp will plummet. A PID will help here as well by starting heating early. I think that is another reason why longer shot times seem to be better for me than shorter ones.

Without a PID it's like frying an egg on pan, which starts off too hot, then cools until it is too cold, then it heats up until it gets too hot etc. This is the temp surfing problem, and the range is probably 10C at least.

A PID gives you a visual feedback about the temperature, so you know when it's ready to go

So without a PID, you have to pay close attention to when the lights go off->on (heating stops -now approaching top of the cycle) and on->off (reheating begins - now at the bottom of the cycle). I used to count to 10 after the light went on. This sometimes means you have to wait.

The light being on or off does not tell you much about the temperature - only tells you if the heating element is fully inactive / fully active.

hth.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tinkstar said:


> What temp are you running at? Struggling to find this in forums.
> 
> I'm struggling to get any flavours.
> 
> ...


 Sounds like you are under-extracting. What was your grind setting, dose & ratio for your last few shots (one by one)?


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Sounds like you are under-extracting. What was your grind setting, dose & ratio for your last few shots (one by one)?


 I have started to purge longer and getting better results, think I got something nutty today.

18gs 30s = 32-42g consistently inconsistent nothing change from grind setting

I am going to work a bit coarser to see what 25s gets or 35 seconds get.

The purging made a difference to keep the temp. But I think this is speeding up the extraction so might go 1 letter finer at 30s

Running gaggia classic with boiler pid 96degrees


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tinkstar said:


> 18gs 30s = 32-42g consistently inconsistent nothing change from grind setting
> 
> I am going to work a bit coarser to see what 25s gets or 35 seconds get.


 This is where the bulk of your inconsistency lies, you are prioritising time, over output in the cup. Grind setting and out put in the cup extract the coffee, the time is just a by product of the other two, except time deviation is large compared to extraction, so time cannot be relied upon as guide to cup quality.

Try and get the next few shots to weigh 42g (plus 2 or 3g if you can't nail 42g, but not less than 42g). Change nothing else (apart from time, which you are recording only) & report back.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

MWJB said:


> This is where the bulk of your inconsistency lies, you are prioritising time, over output in the cup. Grind setting and out put in the cup extract the coffee, the time is just a by product of the other two, except time deviation is large compared to extraction, so time cannot be relied upon as guide to cup quality.
> 
> Try and get the next few shots to weigh 42g (plus 2 or 3g if you can't nail 42g, but not less than 42g). Change nothing else (apart from time, which you are recording only) & report back.


 I thought the point of time was to use it as the bench mark.

If I get 50g in out put at 30s I need to go finer.

If I get 18g in out put at 30s I need to go coarse.

I can get 18g = 42g but I use 30s as a bench mark because my scales don't fit under my cup, so I measure at 30s to go finer or coarser.

Is this the problem.

Should I really get some scales / smaller cup to go on weight ONLY , and not time.

TIME is my measure / control of consistency.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I know you have heard people suggest that you need to hit your ratio in a specific number of seconds, it is widely quoted, but it is just a commonly held misconception. So, I'm not trying to make you look daft, you are seeing advice and assuming it is solid. But time alone is not your, or anyone else's measure of consistency. It simply doesn't work. I'm not saying it just doesn't work in my experience, I am saying it does not work at all, for anyone. The sooner you give up on expecting beans & grinds to stick to a timetable, the sooner your coffee will be more consistent. When it is consistent, we can start to shift the grind setting, or the ratio, to steer the flavour balance.

Let me give you a bit of perspective: 18:42g should result in a cup about 8% concentration. If you grind just as you have for espresso & mix 18g of coffee with 100g of hot water in a cup/French press/cupping bowl (in this scenario 3x the weight of the dose will be absorbed by the coffee leaving about 45g of liquid you can actually drink), it will never hit 8%. The Sun will die before this happens. That is the effect time alone has on coffee brewing.

Espresso is percolation, percolation relies on you passing a known quantity of water, at a roughly ideal temp, through a bed of coffee of a certain size. Time will have the largest variation in consistent extractions, compared to dose, output, extraction & flavour balance..


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Use a bigger, wider cup so the spouts of the PF fit inside it, whilst the cup is on the scales.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Use a bigger, wider cup so the spouts of the PF fit inside it, whilst the cup is on the scales.


 A bottomless PF also helps (in many ways).


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

MWJB said:


> I know you have heard people suggest that you need to hit your ratio in a specific number of seconds, it is widely quoted, but it is just a commonly held misconception. So, I'm not trying to make you look daft, you are seeing advice and assuming it is solid. But time alone is not your, or anyone else's measure of consistency. It simply doesn't work. I'm not saying it just doesn't work in my experience, I am saying it does not work at all, for anyone. The sooner you give up on expecting beans & grinds to stick to a timetable, the sooner your coffee will be more consistent. When it is consistent, we can start to shift the grind setting, or the ratio, to steer the flavour balance.
> 
> Let me give you a bit of perspective: 18:42g should result in a cup about 8% concentration. If you grind just as you have for espresso & mix 18g of coffee with 100g of hot water in a cup/French press/cupping bowl (in this scenario 3x the weight of the dose will be absorbed by the coffee leaving about 45g of liquid you can actually drink), it will never hit 8%. The Sun will die before this happens. That is the effect time alone has on coffee brewing.
> 
> Espresso is percolation, percolation relies on you passing a known quantity of water, at a roughly ideal temp, through a bed of coffee of a certain size. Time will have the largest variation in consistent extractions, compared to dose, output, extraction & flavour balance..


 I missed this reply sorry, I only feel daft when I have coffee up my wall 🤣 other wise I feel normal, unknowledgable and in the dark haha.

What is your process. You get a new bag of beans. What do you do how are you taking on the process as its bitter.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tinkstar said:


> I missed this reply sorry, I only feel daft when I have coffee up my wall 🤣 other wise I feel normal, unknowledgable and in the dark haha.
> 
> What is your process. You get a new bag of beans. What do you do how are you taking on the process as its bitter.


 I set the grinder to the setting that works for me most often.

I then pull a shot with my usual dose & ratio.

If the shot is flat/silty I grind a little coarser & if that results in sourness/an overly acidic cup (or one that has this plus bitterness) pull the the shot to a slightly longer ratio.

I'd really need more info/pull a few shots re. getting away from bitterness, as this has many causes.

If a shot was smoky/drying/sickly & very obviously over-extracted (very rare), I'd pull the shot to a shorter ratio.

I find sourness the most common fault.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

MWJB said:


> I set the grinder to the setting that works for me most often.
> 
> I then pull a shot with my usual dose & ratio.
> 
> ...


 So really working on 18g in 36g and and adjust purely on taste. Makes sense 🤷‍♂️🤣 so simple lol


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## zoglet (Jun 1, 2010)

Definitely no expert but i really like mwjb's advice. When I started off, and for many years, and because I'm a bit ocd, I tried to chase ticking off all boxes in all the rules and spent a good bit of time getting frustrated. With all the best kit in the world, your taste preference hasn't even been taken into account. Measurements and tweaks are useful to help you get more consistent and bring you reliably closer to your preference, but in the end it's all about what you like. Recognise also that just like wine or beer or music, you may simply not like a specific type of coffee and nothing you do dialling in will change that. Best of luck anyway and keep at it.

Edit: I should also add that as other have alluded to before, and I'm not dissing the little guy, accept that the Gaggia Classic is not conducive to consistency. I had one myself for twenty years (pimped to hell, now looking to sell) and even with every upgrade under the sun, it was still capable of having 'difficult mornings'. A couple of years ago, I made a significant upgrade to an ECM Mechanika V Slim and it changed everything. My shot to shot consistency was no longer a consideration. It was no effort to pull a decent shot first time. With all the love i have for my gaggia and all the years of service it gave me, it was never able to do what the ECM does. But then again that's the difference between an entry level machine and a good mid range one.

Anyway the moral of this story is be easy on yourself and don't be disheartened if you aren't always on point because although you can absolutely get good results with your classic, it simply wasn't designed to do what we are perhaps expecting of it and even if it does, I certainly never found it possible (or at least straightforward) to do that shot after shot with reliable consistency.

The issue with significantly upgrading one part of your setup (niche zero) is that it might highlight the shortfall elsewhere. The biggest lesson I had from stepping up from Gaggia to ECM was that my grinder was no longer up to snuff. The cycle never ends lol.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

zoglet said:


> Definitely no expert but i really like mwjb's advice. When I started off, and for many years, and because I'm a bit ocd, I tried to chase ticking off all boxes in all the rules and spent a good bit of time getting frustrated. With all the best kit in the world, your taste preference hasn't even been taken into account. Measurements and tweaks are useful to help you get more consistent and bring you reliably closer to your preference, but in the end it's all about what you like. Recognise also that just like wine or beer or music, you may simply not like a specific type of coffee and nothing you do dialling in will change that. Best of luck anyway and keep at it.
> 
> Edit: I should also add that as other have alluded to before, and I'm not dissing the little guy, accept that the Gaggia Classic is not conducive to consistency. I had one myself for twenty years (pimped to hell, now looking to sell) and even with every upgrade under the sun, it was still capable of having 'difficult mornings'. A couple of years ago, I made a significant upgrade to an ECM Mechanika V Slim and it changed everything. My shot to shot consistency was no longer a consideration. It was no effort to pull a decent shot first time. With all the love i have for my gaggia and all the years of service it gave me, it was never able to do what the ECM does. But then again that's the difference between an entry level machine and a good mid range one.
> 
> ...


 Machine A works machine B works.

Machine B needs upgrading but now A cant match that level, so A needs upgradin, but A is now showing B could be improved and so the cycle continues 🤣🤣🤣


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Shot time - People who weigh out allow that to vary to maintain a certain ratio. Ratio within reason is the ruling factor. Time changes need to be larger to have an effect. Say using 20 or 40 instead of 30. I use 30 as my machine gives that when I press a button. It has pre infusion so maybe the other number that gets mentioned would be better. 25 secs. So pick some time if you want to work that way. And pull a shot. Taste it etc. Finer grind reduces the ratio. Small changes. Same with coarser increasing it. The changes can be so small that they aren't easy to do. Depends on the grinder to some extent but generally will be exceedingly small.

So someone wants to try risteretto or lungo. Simple try 20 and 40 sec shots at what ever settings you are using. Also maybe try various ratios at these times. Some always tune for 40sec shots. That wouldn't be a lungo. Or some way towards 20 or 40 secs.

2 things can go wrong.

Not wasting grinds from the previous grinder setting after the new one has been set. Wasting even a double could be a good idea. That doesn't have to apply when beans are weighed into a grinder providing they do get the majority of the grinds out each time.

The other one is less obvious. Too much coffee in the basket. Grinds can't expand sufficiently so grind finishes up being coarser than it could be. It is possible to tune like this but .......... So coin test to make sure there is some room. That can be done when the grind is somewhere in the ballpark say ratios from 2 to 3. It may be possible to add a bit more but too much reduces extraction and output. Reducing from that say to weaken what comes out is easier as pucks get too wet at some point but the ratio will change as well so grind finer for the same. It might even be worth working through the ratios again. Dose weight changes can have rather noticeable effects on taste at the same ratio. For instance I decided to try 16g rather than 13.5 via a different basket last night for a change. A ratio of 2 came out due to a guess on grinder setting. Taste at that ratio was nothing remotely like it was with 13.5. The shot tool 33sec. I know that if I adjust that to 30 via the grinder taste wont change much. I know from when the tamper went in that the basket isn't over filled. In fact if anything it's a bit low.  I do know 16g went in.

Get into the habit of checking things with scales. It takes seconds so easy to do. I button push for shots but still weigh the output and strive to keep it the same all of the time.  Bit of a mad hobby really. I am weighing beans into a grinder. I have checked that this is consistent enough but still check now and again. I have used a timed doserless grinder. I know that the output will vary over time and that the time setting will need changing to keep it as constant as it can be. I also know that when the grind setting on these is changed the output will as well. If people at least check weights and taste changes they may have a clue why. Prep is a common reason.

Drink coffee out. All of this usually goes on while the people who are drinking aren't watching.  Mind you I believe some coffee shops appear to do this while people are watching and charge more but that doesn't mean the rest make crap coffee.


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## lalo.luna (10 mo ago)

olivier said:


> As for dialing in, I was using this one around the 20-25 mark if I remember correctly.


This is when calibrating the finest point to 0? I've seen people calibrating it to various levels and got confused at this point.


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