# R58 v Sage is it worth the xtra



## Gobbosp

Is the r58 worth s much more than the sage db

or do they both do the same coffee and milk


----------



## NickdeBug

I had both on my bench for a few days and kept the Sage DB.

Half the price, loads more features and much, much easier to live with.

R58 won on looks, assuming you like polishing fingerprints.

I did a review on here that you can probably find with a search.

Both good machines though.


----------



## Tewdric

Audi vs Skoda...


----------



## Jon

Tewdric said:


> Audi vs Skoda...


Is that a fair comparison? Audi and Skoda dip into the same parts bin - do Rocket and Sage?


----------



## 7493

How about VW v Volvo?


----------



## Jon

Rob666 said:


> How about VW v Volvo?


I'm thinking Audi vs Ford?


----------



## 7493

Which is which? I have no time for Audis and not much for Fords.

Perhaps a better comparison would be Ssanyong vs Alfa Romeo...


----------



## Jon

Or Mazda vs Kia?


----------



## Jon

Yugo vs Lada


----------



## Jon

Datsun vs Austin?


----------



## profondoblu

But Audi's are painfully vanilla! Love how this thread has just became about people's car preferences  love it! To me it would be Ferrari v Porsche. Both pretty top end home machines!


----------



## Gobbosp

Hi - i have read your review and very intersting thanks


----------



## Chipstix

I used to own a Sage Barista Express. It was a very good little coffee machine, easy to use, got good results and very fast to warm up. I would say that it certainly felt more domestic than prosumer, and even though the Sage Dual Boiler is a higher end machine, its concept and design is similar. I always got the feeling it would last for a few years and then have issues. Also, like all things it is repairable, but I wasn't overwhelmed by the repair and spare parts resources when I had an issue with a noisey 3-way solenoid after descaling the machine (common problem at least on the Barista Express). I can't complain too much as my brother gave me the SBE as a gift when he gave up espresso!

I now own a Rocket Giotto Premium Plus v3 PID. This is down the range from the R58 as it is a heat exchanger design not dual boiler. Although lower down the range, it is fairly similar looking and essentially has the same functionality. I think it is a stunning machine. Cleaning is easy, I just use a stainless steel e-cloth slightly damp. That said, the machine is VERY shiny which is not to everyone's tastes! I use bottled water (Essential Waitrose) to improve taste and reduce frequency of need for descale.

I would ask yourself the question as to whether you need a dual boiler versus a heat exchanger. In either design you can run the shot and get steam simultaneously (although I don't as too much multitasking for me!). The Rocket is lovely to use, though it is big (particularly depth) and takes 30mins to warm up...so need to plan ahead, be patient or buy a Wemo Insight Switch. Results are excellent with the E61 group head but needs to be paired with a reasonable grinder or better. I have the 'minimum' recommended grinder from Bella Barista which is a Eureka Mignon Mk2, but I am happy with it and get perfect results as far as my taste and judgement go. It's also good looking and compact as grinders go, if a bit noisey.

I bought the Rocket from this forum from 2 well respected 'enthusiasts'! Having paid £775 for a mint looking and well cared for machine I felt a little smug versus my brothers £1700 investment in his brand new R58. The R58 though can be plumbed in which he plans, I can't do with my Premium Plus as it has a vibration not rotary pump.

You could also look at the Rocket Appartamento.I was looking at these when this forum landed the Rocket in my "must have it and buy it" box. It all depends on how you want to use it, how much space you have etc.

Hope this helps


----------



## Gobbosp

Chipstix said:


> I used to own a Sage Barista Express. It was a very good little coffee machine, easy to use, got good results and very fast to warm up. I would say that it certainly felt more domestic than prosumer, and even though the Sage Dual Boiler is a higher end machine, its concept and design is similar. I always got the feeling it would last for a few years and then have issues. Also, like all things it is repairable, but I wasn't overwhelmed by the repair and spare parts resources when I had an issue with a noisey 3-way solenoid after descaling the machine (common problem at least on the Barista Express). I can't complain too much as my brother gave me the SBE as a gift when he gave up espresso!
> 
> I now own a Rocket Giotto Premium Plus v3 PID. This is down the range from the R58 as it is a heat exchanger design not dual boiler. Although lower down the range, it is fairly similar looking and essentially has the same functionality. I think it is a stunning machine. Cleaning is easy, I just use a stainless steel e-cloth slightly damp. That said, the machine is VERY shiny which is not to everyone's tastes! I use bottled water (Essential Waitrose) to improve taste and reduce frequency of need for descale.
> 
> I would ask yourself the question as to whether you need a dual boiler versus a heat exchanger. In either design you can run the shot and get steam simultaneously (although I don't as too much multitasking for me!). The Rocket is lovely to use, though it is big (particularly depth) and takes 30mins to warm up...so need to plan ahead, be patient or buy a Wemo Insight Switch. Results are excellent with the E61 group head but needs to be paired with a reasonable grinder or better. I have the 'minimum' recommended grinder from Bella Barista which is a Eureka Mignon Mk2, but I am happy with it and get perfect results as far as my taste and judgement go. It's also good looking and compact as grinders go, if a bit noisey.
> 
> I bought the Rocket from this forum from 2 well respected 'enthusiasts'! Having paid £775 for a mint looking and well cared for machine I felt a little smug versus my brothers £1700 investment in his brand new R58. The R58 though can be plumbed in which he plans, I can't do with my Premium Plus as it has a vibration not rotary pump.
> 
> You could also look at the Rocket Appartamento.I was looking at these when this forum landed the Rocket in my "must have it and buy it" box. It all depends on how you want to use it, how much space you have etc.
> 
> Hope this helps


thanks for that chipstix - why did you return the sage pro grinder, do you think the mignon is a lot better ??


----------



## Chipstix

No probs @Gobbosp

As for the Sage Smart Pro grinder, well the short version is that it could not grind fine enough for the Rocket. Shame as had some great design features and a very good price.

Long version: I wanted a 2nd grinder for decaf, and had got on well with the built-in Sage grinder in the SBE. It wasn't stepless, but worked well with the SBE and gave very good extractions. Again the SSGP, nice features like digital backlit easy to read display, accurate timers, coffee spill tray, lock on/off hopper etc all looked excellent, and I only paid £125 for it, which is less than half what I paid for the Mignon. I also liked the idea of being able to quickly set to Aeropress grind and then back again using the grind numbering system. To do this on the Mignon involves 'counting turns'. It even looked OK, though the missus wasn't that impressed (I bought a black one and hid it in the shadow of the Rocket!)

I was warned about it not being able to go fine enough, but I didn't believe it as it had many grinder settings and a burr adjustment feature. I also knew that decaf maybe finer and harder to dial in than caf coffee, but anyway I couldn't get it fine enough even with normal caff coffee. I adjusted everything to finest and started getting in the range of the brew ratios that I wanted but still 3.5 or 4:1, and it sounded really strained. I don't think the motor would have lasted long.

Such a shame, but it had to go back. I had a NIGHTMARE returning it with iwantoneofthose.com, I will NEVER use that website again. NEVER. EVER. 20 messages and several weeks and they have NO PHONE NUMBER and refused to call me. Anyway, I digress.

The Mignon is a very good little grinder. It felt expensive when I bought it, but is really solid and heavy and feels genuinely built to last. Things like the timer aren't very accurate (so I weigh each dose in beans and keep the hopper empty) and it doesn't have many of the well thought out design features of the SSGP but the grind is consistent and easy to dial in with stepless adjustment. Also looks great in polished chrome and compliments the Rocket. It does produce very clumpy grinds though so I have to use the Weiss Distribution technique (i.e. stirring it with a paperclip!) to get an even extraction from my bottomless PF.

I've since worked out I can run decaf through the Mignon with a slight grind setting tweak and then back to caff, so I'm back to just the mignon and happy. I found myself looking at the Atom, but honestly I couldn't even convince myself with man-maths that i needed it.


----------



## garydyke1

Weird . The Sage Pro grinder has choked every machine Ive ever used it with standard 18g in basket... even a Slayer and Black Eagle running 6 BAR









You might need to adjust the burr shim thing to finest setting if using super light roasts


----------



## 4085

garydyke1 said:


> Weird . The Sage Pro grinder has choked every machine Ive ever used it with standard 18g in basket... even a Slayer and Black Eagle running 6 BAR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might need to adjust the burr shim thing to finest setting if using super light roasts


It fails to choke the Sage DB Gary....and as you know, Sages answer is to loosen the grind off and overfill the basket. When the White Gloves came I offered him scales to weigh in etc. He spurned them, set the grinder to 7 and the timer to 19.7 seconds or so.......filled the basket to overflowing, carefully swished it around with his finger and used the double button shot without weighing output.

If you put 19 gms in the basket on setting 1, it just gushes. They say under no circumstances do you use the burr adjustment unless your burrs are worn down and even have a video on the subject


----------



## garydyke1

dfk41 said:


> It fails to choke the Sage DB Gary....and as you know, Sages answer is to loosen the grind off and overfill the basket. When the White Gloves came I offered him scales to weigh in etc. He spurned them, set the grinder to 7 and the timer to 19.7 seconds or so.......filled the basket to overflowing, carefully swished it around with his finger and used the double button shot without weighing output.
> 
> If you put 19 gms in the basket on setting 1, it just gushes. They say under no circumstances do you use the burr adjustment unless your burrs are worn down and even have a video on the subject


It didn't fail to choke mine or @Xpenno DBs


----------



## coffeechap

must be unlucky


----------



## garydyke1

dfk41 said:


> They say under no circumstances do you use the burr adjustment unless your burrs are worn down and even have a video on the subject


Thats nonsense . I know 4 or 5 peeps who've adjusted theirs off the bat as they are using pretty darn light roasts .

Its like saying don't zero your EK for espresso.


----------



## coffeechap

The sage grinder is still pretty shite though, really is a shame they haven't developed a better one


----------



## garydyke1

A much more powerful motor and a dedicated burr set for espresso would be a great thing indeed


----------



## Gobbosp

After the research it seems the mignon grinder and the roxket appartmento is going to be the aet up. Thanks for all the discussions


----------



## hotmetal

A nice-looking and compact espresso setup that will be. Enjoy it.


----------



## Xpenno

The sage grinder is perfectly capable, its not the best but for the cash I don't see how you can complain. It can choke the dual boiler easily using fresh beans and a correctly dosed vst (or any other basket I imagine).

After owning a couple of high end e61 machines and a sage db I don't think is ever go back to an e61. Warmup time of 40mins vs 5mins on the sage, temperature stability during the shot is much better on the sage. Sage can do low pressure if you're that way inclined. Its very simple to maintain. Finally, the coffee is consistently better than the other machines I've owned.


----------



## 4085

I would agree with everything Spence has said (apart from the grinder). I have had a lot of different machines, all at the top end of the market. I hated Sage and have vocally said that. It is not a traditional coffee machine but it makes coffee just as good as if not better. My complaint was always about how long they would last. A traditional machine is mendable with easily replaced parts and will go on and on for years, but, the DB is so flexible and allows you to do all sorts of things.

The modern way seems to be if you buy a TV with a 5 year warranty and it breaks down outside of that, you bin it and buy ew, so why would coffee be different?

I suggest that anyone who chokes an E61 with a Sage grinder has advanced the burr set that Sage specifically say you are not to do until your burrs are so worn down

That said, the r58 is shiney which appeals to a lot. Machines that let you profile can be fun but you will reach a stage where you are sick of tinkering and use the same profile for everything


----------



## hotmetal

dfk41 said:


> That said, the r58 is shiney which appeals to a lot. Machines that let you profile can be fun but you will reach a stage where you are sick of tinkering and use the same profile for everything


Hahaha yeah you're right there David - I have the R58 and can't normally be bothered even playing around with temperature (especially as E61 takes ages to change true temp anyway). I like solid, shiny traditional metal but this is purely emotional and I wouldn't try to talk someone out of a Sage if that's was the way they were leaning. I'm not really a tweaker - in a fast-moving world it's nice to have something traditional and consistent with minimal distraction. I probably should have got a lever ;-)


----------



## urbanbumpkin

I'm with Spence on this. I've owned E61 machines and the Sage Dual Boiler. Sage is my preference.

I agree that you can change parts your self of classic espresso machines, however I did find that I changed the OPV and Pressure Stat twice amongst other things within 14 months.

My Sage had a 3 year guarantee which is more than most machine comes with and I've got a contact for the company that repair the Sage machine.

Outside of the warranty I guess it's a bit like most new cars in that you have to take it to a garage to get it fixed.


----------



## Chipstix

Maybe I was just unlucky with the Smart Control Pro grinder that I had, but I just could not get it fine enough. Having the Mignon there to do a direct comparison I knew that all other factors were the same including weighed dose, tamp pressure, etc etc. It could have been a dodgy one, but that wouldn't be a great thing for manufacturing quality!

I think the Sage products are very good. I have a Sage Kinetix Control blender/smoothie maker too and it is very good. However, longevity and repairability was a concern for me, its good that urbanbumpkin has found a repairer so perhaps not so much of an issue. When it came to toasters, the Sage was too gimmicky (e.g."sneak peak" motorised platform vs a lever that lifts and then lowers the toast) and fiddly, so I went for a Dualit NewGen, and that thing will last forever I suspect (or can be repaired with individual parts).

Regarding the comment "The modern way seems to be if you buy a TV with a 5 year warranty and it breaks down outside of that, you bin it and buy ew, so why would coffee be different?", Its a different discussion but I am not on board with this thinking. I want things to last, and want to get away from the disposable throwaway society. That's just my opinion.

I think the Appartamento paired with a Mignon will be a nice set-up. Enjoy!


----------

