# Is my Duetto now scrap?



## Mabenson (Sep 30, 2020)

Had my Duetto ii for 10 years with no major problems apart from changing the opv a few years ago. Recently it started struggling to pull a shot (not reaching pressure). Took it to a local tech who replaced the pump, safety valve and anti vac valve. He also serviced the hot water valve and level probe. Got it home and it had an issue straight away. Really low pressure at the start of the shot before kicking in properly. The next day it was worse. I have it on an automatic timer to be warmed up when I use it in the morning. Tried to use it and no water came out at all. Switched it off and left it to cool then tried again. This time it was like when I first brought it home. Obviously contacted the tech again. He's now taken it to bits and says there is major scale everywhere but worse is that the steam boiler is unsafe as it has leaks and wants to replace it but can't find the part. Is it time to think about a new machine?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Mabenson said:


> Had my Duetto ii for 10 years with no major problems apart from changing the opv a few years ago. Recently it started struggling to pull a shot (not reaching pressure). Took it to a local tech who replaced the pump, safety valve and anti vac valve. He also serviced the hot water valve and level probe. Got it home and it had an issue straight away. Really low pressure at the start of the shot before kicking in properly. The next day it was worse. I have it on an automatic timer to be warmed up when I use it in the morning. Tried to use it and no water came out at all. Switched it off and left it to cool then tried again. This time it was like when I first brought it home. Obviously contacted the tech again. He's now taken it to bits and says there is major scale everywhere but worse is that the steam boiler is unsafe as it has leaks and wants to replace it but can't find the part. Is it time to think about a new machine?


 Potentially. Looks like your machine has reached end of life... not because the machine is not good, but it seems that, sadly, you haven't given it the maintenance / treatment it deserved over those 10 years. You may try and contact Gruppo Izzo or take it to Bella Barista who carried stock and parts, and were the authorised UK dealer for them for a while. I'm not sure it's still the case, but they can at least put you in the right direction.

Limescale is the biggest espresso machine killer. So, whenever you fix it or buy a new machine, try to avoid it in the first place by putting "boiler friendly" water inside your machine.

on a positive note, coffee machines, and grinders, have come a long way since. There are great options out there to choose from.

welcome to the forum, and good luck!


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## Mabenson (Sep 30, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Potentially. Looks like your machine has reached end of life... not because the machine is not good, but it seems that, sadly, you haven't given it the maintenance / treatment it deserved over those 10 years. You may try and contact Gruppo Izzo or take it to Bella Barista who carried stock and parts, and were the authorised UK dealer for them for a while. I'm not sure it's still the case, but they can at least put you in the right direction.
> 
> Limescale is the biggest espresso machine killer. So, whenever you fix it or buy a new machine, try to avoid it in the first place by putting "boiler friendly" water inside your machine.
> 
> ...


 Thanks, that's sort of the conclusion I've unhappily drawn to as well. I only used filtered water (a scale reducing filter allegedly not brita) and descaled regularly with citric acid but our water is incredibly hard here. Lesson learnt the expensive way 😕 Looking at BB it seems they aren't doing Izzo any more. What would be a good replacement machine? Sage dual boiler, Lelit, Profitec (who I believe were LCM) or a Crem one (Expobar?). I'm a bit out of the loop! Btw what is profiling and all this needle valve stuff. I've got 10 years of catching up to do 😁


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Mabenson said:


> Thanks, that's sort of the conclusion I've unhappily drawn to as well. I only used filtered water (a scale reducing filter allegedly not brita) and descaled regularly with citric acid but our water is incredibly hard here. Lesson learnt the expensive way 😕 Looking at BB it seems they aren't doing Izzo any more. What would be a good replacement machine? Sage dual boiler, Lelit, Profitec (who I believe were LCM) or a Crem one (Expobar?). I'm a bit out of the loop! Btw what is profiling and all this needle valve stuff. I've got 10 years of catching up to do 😁


 Haha!

A great starting point... Here:

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com

It depends what you want and your budget.

I had a Profitec P-700 in the past (PS: ECM is still going, Profitec is a sister company on the "less-expensive" side. Think VW and Audi. I know have a Lelit Elizabeth.

See what takes your fancy and go from there!

Question: How can you resit upgraditus for all those years???? In less than 10 years I had 6 coffee machines!


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## Mabenson (Sep 30, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Haha!
> 
> A great starting point... Here:
> 
> ...


 Hahaha, the coffee setup is about the only thing I never succumbed to upgraditus to in the house 😁. It just worked perfectly for what I wanted so I never thought about a new one. Thanks for the link I'll have a look. Grinder wise I think I'm ok as I have a macap mx which is probably overkill for my needs but I got a bargain on ebay


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Mabenson said:


> Hahaha, the coffee setup is about the only thing I never succumbed to upgraditus to in the house 😁. It just worked perfectly for what I wanted so I never thought about a new one. Thanks for the link I'll have a look. Grinder wise I think I'm ok as I have a macap mx which is probably overkill for my needs but I got a bargain on ebay


 You may want to revisit that 🙂 - Have you heard of the Niche Zero?


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## Mabenson (Sep 30, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You may want to revisit that 🙂 - Have you heard of the Niche Zero?


 🤣🤣 Just googled it. This could be an expensive couple of months!


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## davril (Sep 17, 2012)

Hope you get sorted. Lots of great machines on the market to choose from now.

It is a bit odd that the tech didn't spot such major scale problems and an unsafe boiler the first time around?


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Mabenson said:


> Had my Duetto ii for 10 years with no major problems apart from changing the opv a few years ago. Recently it started struggling to pull a shot (not reaching pressure). Took it to a local tech who replaced the pump, safety valve and anti vac valve. He also serviced the hot water valve and level probe. Got it home and it had an issue straight away. Really low pressure at the start of the shot before kicking in properly. The next day it was worse. I have it on an automatic timer to be warmed up when I use it in the morning. Tried to use it and no water came out at all. Switched it off and left it to cool then tried again. This time it was like when I first brought it home. Obviously contacted the tech again. He's now taken it to bits and says there is major scale everywhere but worse is that the steam boiler is unsafe as it has leaks and wants to replace it but can't find the part. Is it time to think about a new machine?


 Time to find a new tech or repair it yourself.

A decent engineer would have found the faults first before changing parts willy-nilly.

You could replace it, but i would guarantee somebody on here would buy your old machine as is and have it working without much effort and at much less expense than a new one.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

If you get a new machine you will want to factor in the cost of supplying treated water to it to avoid this happening to the new machine. As a quick aside, the Sage Dual boiler and those type of more complex modern machines will suffer from scale more than the classic style of machine. I had a Sage DB and it was a good machine but descaling it was a bit of a PITA when it went wrong. I don't know if they have fixed it but a common issue with with the descale port clogging. The actual process of descaling it is super easy but it was definitely hit and miss.


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## Mabenson (Sep 30, 2020)

I did think the same thing myself. Especially as it was a brew issue not a steam issue but then thought he may not have seen it because of the insulation or am I being a bit naive here? 🤔


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Definitely don't scap it!

Depending on price and location I would be interested.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Mabenson - forget "your" technician. @Norvin to the rescue! 👍😂


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## Mabenson (Sep 30, 2020)

Norvin said:


> Definitely don't scap it!
> 
> Depending on price and location I would be interested.


 Am still waiting to hear what he has to say. Definitely thinking he he might be taking me for a ride now though 🤔


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @Mabenson - forget "your" technician. @Norvin to the rescue! 👍😂


 Already have a decent lever (L1), E61 HX (ECM), SBDU (OWC), just looking for a decent dual boiler (not counting the Kitchenaid) to complete the set 🙂


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## Mabenson (Sep 30, 2020)

Norvin said:


> Already have a decent lever (L1), E61 HX (ECM), SBDU (OWC), just looking for a decent dual boiler (not counting the Kitchenaid) to complete the set 🙂


 I'll keep you posted 👍


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Would be interested in this myself if its going to market....

I suspect the tech has fu**ed up something in his fiddlings. Perhaps opening and closing the boilers without cleaning and sealing?


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## Mabenson (Sep 30, 2020)

I'll give the tech a ring this afternoon to find out what's happening and get him to send me some pictures of the issue.


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## Mabenson (Sep 30, 2020)

So here's some pics of the steam boiler he wants to replace. Not sure how this would repair the brew pressure issue but if the inside of the pipes looks like the outside of the tank then probably explains a lot. An osmio zero reverse osmosis kit and a Lelit Bianca are looking very good right now 😁


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## Mabenson (Sep 30, 2020)

Mabenson said:


> So here's some pics of the steam boiler he wants to replace. Not sure how this would repair the brew pressure issue but if the inside of the pipes looks like the outside of the tank then probably explains a lot. An osmio zero reverse osmosis kit and a Lelit Bianca are looking very good right now 😁
> 
> View attachment 46122
> 
> ...


 So he's now saying that he doesn't know if a new boiler will fix the problem but as both boilers are linked one could affect the other? Oh, and he's also said the size of corrosion patches are why he thinks the boiler is leaking and not a joint or pipe.


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

I suppose that the only way to find the source of the leak is to reconnect everything and apply a little pressure inside the tank, probably too expensive to pay someone to do it for you.

Still, looks to be a good project...


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

I would not scrap it. Get a second opinion on the condition of the steam boiler. The problem you describe as low brew pressure at the start of shot sounds like the pump pressure regulation sticking.

Unless you believe the marketing, there has been very little substantive progress in the performance of coffee machines since your Duetto, with one or two notable exceptions like the Decent, which can control both pressure and temperature. . For e61 double boiler machines the real progress includes either a variable flow pump or a variable orifice to achieve flow/ pressure control. You can fit a variable orifice needle to your Duetto to bring it up to date.


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## Mabenson (Sep 30, 2020)

Thanks for the advice. I'm going to get him to put it back together as is and then get it back off him. I don't see the point in paying for a new steam boiler as it didn't have a steaming problem when it went to him and I can't see how it will fix a pump pressure problem. Might have a little tinker myself when I get it back 🤔


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## Chainlinephil (Apr 5, 2020)

That kind of external discolouration I had on my old Alex single boiler just from the spitting of the anti vac valve. It wasn't reflective of the internal condition. (though it does look rather more substantial than mine was around the fittings.

BB still do Izzo parts and will get them for you unless thats changed in the last 2-3 months. I wanted some parts for my Alex at the time and also a spare Alex MkII.

Actually I still do for the spares/repair (or the chap that bought the Alex does); a top panel and the cup tray, I may look for another spares or repair machine on here and ask BB about the parts.


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## Mabenson (Sep 30, 2020)

Well that's all a bit odd. Picked up the machine today after he put it back together and it seems to be working fine at the moment. Brew pressure is a little low (8 bar) but it hits that straight away. I'll see if the problem reappears when it's been on a while but it seems the tech has inadvertently fixed it!😁


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

It has a rotary pump, so it should be straight forward to adjust it back to 9. In fact, you should not get any variations in readings, it should be the same number all the time whether you have the PF locked in or not. My understanding is that the manometer measures the pressure at the head of the pump, and not at the group or brew circuit.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

May I suggest you are at a fork in the road with this?

I don't think you should continue to use it as is. From the look of it, it needs a deep clean and reconditioning. This may not actually cost much to do but it will drastically extend the life.

So, either strip it down yourself and rebuild it

Or sell it as a working project and buy new.

I would do the former but can't help think the latter may be better for you.


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## Mabenson (Sep 30, 2020)

Blue_Cafe said:


> May I suggest you are at a fork in the road with this?
> 
> I don't think you should continue to use it as is. From the look of it, it needs a deep clean and reconditioning. This may not actually cost much to do but it will drastically extend the life.
> 
> ...


 You're not wrong! It's had a spruce up when he put it back together and he said it was surprisingly scale free for this area. That being said there's probably still an issue somewhere. I'm going to have a little nose around tomorrow but I'm under no illusions regarding my skill levels 😁 I'm definitely leaning towards option 2 at the moment.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mabenson said:


> So he's now saying that he doesn't know if a new boiler will fix the problem but as both boilers are linked one could affect the other? Oh, and he's also said the size of corrosion patches are why he thinks the boiler is leaking and not a joint or pipe.


 In the Duetto the boilers are linked, but only for the brew water Pre-Heat function. However, even if the service boiler is shot... you can quite easily add a stainless boiler with heating elements, use PTFE flexible pipe fittings and feed the brew boiler from the pipe that previously went into the HX unit at the bottom of the service boiler. The Duetto doesn't really need a preheat system in the domestic situation and works fine without it. The brew boiler is a perfect size for domestic use without pre-heat.

The corrosion patches are large and no doubt some are from leaking fittings. Ideally all the corrosion should be cleaned off with citric acid so the boiler is nice and clean, then without insulation and leaks should be evident. Leaks around fittings are not good and pinholes in the boiler might show thinning, although the Duetto copper boiler is quite thick.



Mabenson said:


> Well that's all a bit odd. Picked up the machine today after he put it back together and it seems to be working fine at the moment. Brew pressure is a little low (8 bar) but it hits that straight away. I'll see if the problem reappears when it's been on a while but it seems the tech has inadvertently fixed it!😁


 One of the things to check is that the pump never leaks....if it does and you have not taken precautions, it will trash the motor bearings. This is because the pump is above the motor and although I asked them to cage the assembly and invert it in my initial design for the Duetto, they never bothered...I think in the latest models they did finally cage the pump and Invert it, but 10 years too late IMO.

Everything you will need to know to check your pump, make a leak detector and protect it is in this search, plus lots of other stuff about the Duetto.

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/search:site/q/duetto

It's still a great machine and I think could be fixed up for very little money. It's temperature accurate when set up right and makes a good shot. The PIDs can even be repaired, well on the MK1s, I think they off boarded the old Hahn transformers in the MK2 (they used to give trouble as were not heat rated correctly) and also gave PID control of the service boiler temperature.

If you get need another boiler, absolutely don't be afraid of adding a MA-TER XP110 pressurestat and SSR to switch the heating elements....then use the PID only for brew temperature. It will work much better that way because the PID isn't a proper dual loop unit and shares brew PID parameters with the steam boiler...which isn't what you want. Making the change to a pressurestat simplifies things if you add a completely different steam boiler and will actually give 20% better steam power.

Well worth an attempt to fix it up IMO....Mines the first one ever made serial number 0001 and I'd still never sell it...still looks like it came out of the factory. Nice grade thick steel, good machines for their time.


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## Mabenson (Sep 30, 2020)

Fantastic 😃 Thanks for the in depth response. Definitely a few things to look into there, I'll be trying to sort out the boiler insulation over the weekend (the tech left the boilers bare) and will be checking for any leaks whilst I'm in there. Everything continues to work well at the moment but I haven't looked inside for a week or so.


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## helen (Feb 16, 2010)

FYI - Bella Barista did a complete service on my Duetto recently, so although they aren't selling them, they can still service/fix them.


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