# Do you leave your machine on 24/7?



## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Thought I'd ask the question as my missus made a hint yesterday that our higher electricity bills are due to me leaving the L1 on most of the time.

Curious has anyone checked how much power a ticking over prosumer espresso machine uses?

T.


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## ajh101 (Dec 21, 2013)

Electronic timer means my Classic is warm in the morning and when I get home. It is on during the day at weekends.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I prefer to leave it on as I hate the vibe pump kicking in on startup to refill the boiler, especially in the morning. I always assumed power consumption wouldn't be high, but perhaps it's not as low as I would want it...

T.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Wemo timer for me too - though I often override if I know I'm not having one in the morning.

If I think I'll not be using machine for 3 hours then I'll switch off also and let heat back up later.


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## Jacko112 (Oct 29, 2015)

Nope it only takes 5 mins to heat up


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Sage goes all control freak after 20 mins and drops into standby mode if unused. Shuts down completely after 30 mins. In line with EU regulation on use of domestic appliances. Can't use a Wemo as it has no on/off switch than can be left on. Who cares as it is good to go in 5 mins.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

L1 is old school in that respect might get a Wemo then, or at least turn it off when I'm at work or a sleep.

Found a few threads on HB basically saying that 12hrs operation is close to turning the machine on / off assuming you do it at least a few times, biggest drain was overnight I think.

T.


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## billt (Jul 10, 2013)

Mines on a timer, comes on about 7:00 and off at 22:00.

The Iberital L'adri that I used to use consumed about 3 kWh per day on the same timer settings. Use a Strega now, which I hoped would be more economical, but it's pretty much the same consumption - no insulation at all.

I'd guess your L1 consumption would be of the same order.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

No insulation is a fairly big issue I think, will have to look at it a bit more as everytime I leave the machine on for a few days half the coffee corner gets warm









T.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Get a large "tea cosy" made for those longer stints between use maybe.

Exact use will depend on room ambient and things like drafts so such a cover should make a big difference.

You could try a proof of concept using some sort of thermal picnic bag or that reflective foam/foil used behind radiators, space blanket, Hot water tank jacket.

You may have to do a flush or leave the group to cool after using such a thing


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

I measured mine with one of those energy consumption plugs. 7p a day. Not a big deal, I don't leave mine on all day but for a good few hours at the weekend


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

The timer on the Vesuvius has 2 settings so Ive set it to come on really early on a morning, and late afternoon when I come in from work. Stays on all day on a weekend


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

mremanxx said:


> I measured mine with one of those energy consumption plugs. 7p a day. Not a big deal, I don't leave mine on all day but for a good few hours at the weekend


Not trying to be a know it all but 7pence a day sounds way to low of an estimation if you are talking about a machine being idle for a day .


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Just put a Kill-a-Watt on my L1 but it is already warmed up so I'll get a few numbers today, switch it off then get the start up numbers tomorrow.

Anyone want any specific numbers?


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Thecatlinux said:


> Not trying to be a know it all but 7pence a day sounds way to low of an estimation if you are talking about a machine being idle for a day .


Fairpoint, by all day I mean about 12 hours. I tested over a weekend, I have to presume those gadgets are accurate enough, you only need to input your kw/h,

I am pretty sure my machine is no more efficient than others, after all once a machine is heated up it does not use much power, mine only switches on the heating element every couple of minutes or so for a few seconds.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

grumpydaddy said:


> Anyone want any specific numbers?


Show. Me. The. Data.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

mmmatron said:


> The timer on the Vesuvius has 2 settings so Ive set it to come on really early on a morning, and late afternoon when I come in from work. Stays on all day on a weekend


Ya. What he said ^.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)




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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Obnic said:


> Ya. What he said ^.


Mmmatron is a lady


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

hotmetal said:


> Mmmatron is a lady


Ha not always


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

hotmetal said:


> Mmmatron is a lady





mmmatron said:


> Ha not always


Bah ha ha! OK, I'm blaming two negronis. No other excuse offered.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

That would do it! Nice choice of poison, but be careful if you go out on the town tonight LOL!


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Drunkest I have ever been is drinking Negronis in Rome a couple of year ago ;( Hangover was dreadful.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

I would say that the results so far suggest that keeping on but not making coffees uses about 0.21 kWh per hour whilst the start up sequence uses about 0.52 kWh without any flushing to speed matters up.

Full chart follows tomorrow at 7pm (ish)


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Excellent, thanks grumpy! Looking forward to the chart









T.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

The original Londinium L1 has a boiler of some 2.4 litres and a heating element rated at 2750 watts (or so it seems).

There is no insulation present so the heat from the boiler escapes to the inside of the machine and thence to atmosphere. It also heats the internal reservoir indirectly.

These start up and leave the machine on numbers are a guide only. The thermometer showing ambient is located just 150mm to the side of the machine. The I.R. thermometer used to take group temperatures has not been calibrated for 3 years

I had to put tape on the group in order for the I.R. thermometer to read. Voltage today at midday is 236v

All coffees made during this test are 6oz with milk steamed in a 350cc Jug. Otherwise there was no operator intervention to speed up the heating of the group as can be seen by the apparent stall of the syphon at around 10:30 after making the first drink

L1 power use


TimekWh Ambient °CGroup °CCoffees9:0002121 9:15	 0.28  21.2  48	  9:30	 0.34  21.4  65	  9:45	 0.40  21.5  70	  10:00	 0.45  21.6  77	  10:15	 0.52  21.7  76	 one 10:30	 0.57  21.8  62	  11:00	 0.70  21.9  78	  12:00	 0.91  22.0  84	  13:00	 1.12  22.2  84	  15:00	 1.60  23.4  80	 one

 17:00	 2.02  23.9  82	  19:00	 2.43  24.0  83	  7:00	 4.88 22.1  83	 two 19:00	 7.53  23.2  84	 two
[td] [/td]


Hope this is of some use to someone.

I believe I had previously said that a ball park figure derived from the number of times the stat kicks in in an hour and how many seconds the my element stays on was 0.2kWh. Pretty happy with that.

Quick Edit: At 20:20 this evening the "cold" water reservoir was *48°*


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## Lefteye (Dec 30, 2014)

Has anyone ever lagged the L1 boiler? Is there room to do it?


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Added edit


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

3kw and 6 ltr boiler 24/7. Can't see the point.


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## wilse (Nov 14, 2013)

Thanks for this, but you've got me curious now.

From your figures, 9am to 7am the next day 4.88 is this 4.88 Kw... if each Kwh is 17p, then am I correct in saying your machine is 82p per day to run?

Also I'm impressed your house is 21 degrees!



grumpydaddy said:


> The original Londinium L1 has a boiler of some 2.4 litres and a heating element rated at 2750 watts (or so it seems).
> 
> There is no insulation present so the heat from the boiler escapes to the inside of the machine and thence to atmosphere. It also heats the internal reservoir indirectly.
> 
> ...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Once come to temp, the L1 uses juice when the element kicks in which can be seen when the pressure drops on the gauge. It heats it up till it reaches whatever it is set to, then goes idle until it starts again. If anyone has a Smart meter it ought to be simple enough to put 2 and 3 together and come up with a usage estimate


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Here's my non-scientific approach to eleci usage. Our monthly bill is £90. Our electric range uses virtually £60. So for £1 a day we are getting lights, running boiler pumps, two fridges, a freezer, a washing machine daily wash, indoor and outside lights, a heater/air cond for the guinea pig house, hair drier, radios, chargers, oh and a coffee machine! When I worked it out for the Evo a couple of years ago I estimated 10p a day so maybe now it's 15p which doesn't worry me (and from a climate point of view I feel (fairly) conscious free).

edit to add: mine isn't on 24/7 more like 12/7


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

wilse said:


> Thanks for this, but you've got me curious now.
> 
> From your figures, 9am to 7am the next day 4.88 is this 4.88 Kw... if each Kwh is 17p, then am I correct in saying your machine is 82p per day to run?
> 
> Also I'm impressed your house is 21 degrees!


80pence a day if left on overnight sounds about right to me .

i always worked on a gut feeling of 50p for 12hrs


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Yeah. I guess the Idea was to present the numbers for anyone to use as they choose but in summary:

Leaving it on 24 hours a day once it has warmed up used, in this test, 5.1 kWh which includes making coffees

leaving it on overnight used 2.45 kWh in 12 hours

Starting it up from cold uses about 0.5 kWh


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Huge thanks for the numbers grumpy, I sort of dislike the fact that the machine is on overnight as this is purely waste and convenience at the same time. I wouldn't mind a Wemo like device, but after checking Wemo plugs on Amazon I can see it's got some reliability issues. Anyone here using a TP-Link as an alternative?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/TP-Link-Required-Anywhere-HS100-UK/dp/B01I3ZCBFK/ref=pd_lpo_147_tr_t_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=7PVEJN6PJCKHNFHRZSZ8

they have a model with built in power metering as well.

As for boiler insulation I will probably give it a go, just need to check:

a) what material to use (stuff I've found on the Londinium forum is mostly available in the US only or if available in the UK it's some silly money for silly amounts).

b) whether it affects how the machine runs (ie. thermal stability etc.)

T.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

I would probably go with something like this although not necessarily with adhesive one side:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Neoprene-Foam-Sheet-Self-Adhesive-Sound-Proofing-Insulation-1m-x-1m-x-8mm-/262879344515?hash=item3d34d47783:g:t4EAAOxy7odRzYrJ

You could insulate the panels rather than the boiler


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Wemo is pretty faultless for me and have had one for a few years. The issue seems to be around wifi and the instructions are sometimes not logical, but it does work well


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

dsc said:


> Huge thanks for the numbers grumpy, I sort of dislike the fact that the machine is on overnight as this is purely waste and convenience at the same time. I wouldn't mind a Wemo like device, but after checking Wemo plugs on Amazon I can see it's got some reliability issues. Anyone here using a TP-Link as an alternative?
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/TP-Link-Required-Anywhere-HS100-UK/dp/B01I3ZCBFK/ref=pd_lpo_147_tr_t_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=7PVEJN6PJCKHNFHRZSZ8
> 
> ...


ive been using the wemo(iPhone)for over two years now and I haven't had any reliability issues at all , the only problem I had was when I upgraded to 5g network which the wemo doesn't support so I am having to run both a 2g and 5g network


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Me too wemo for a while and has been faultless


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## kevin (Sep 21, 2014)

I posted a power graph a while ago from my Quickmill Vetrano 2B warming up, staying idle, pulling shots etc (https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?33247-Wemo-switch-for-warming-up-E61-in-morning&p=441555#post441555).

I used to hear a rule-of-thumb which was for things left on all the time, it cost "£1 per watt per year" so a 60W light bulb left on for a year would cost £60. I'm not sure how accurate that is these days, though.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

kevin said:


> I posted a power graph a while ago from my Quickmill Vetrano 2B warming up, staying idle, pulling shots etc (https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?33247-Wemo-switch-for-warming-up-E61-in-morning&p=441555#post441555).
> 
> I used to hear a rule-of-thumb which was for things left on all the time, it cost "£1 per watt per year" so a 60W light bulb left on for a year would cost £60. I'm not sure how accurate that is these days, though.


It really depends on your unit cost,

at 15p a unit it works out at £78.62 for your 60w light bulb


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## Josevonspain (Feb 27, 2017)

My machine is usually on 24/7


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think a lot of cares turn their machines off at night. The simple equation is does it take more juice on stand for 12 hours or starting up


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## Lefteye (Dec 30, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> I think a lot of cares turn their machines off at night. The simple equation is does it take more juice on stand for 12 hours or starting up


This is what I was thinking. I reckon I'd have the machine on for 2 hours in the morning and 3 in the evening during the week and longer at weekends. Would it be cheaper to leave it on ? That was part of the thinking behind lagging the boiler to reduce heat loss when off so energy and time are reduced in heat up times.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

As an economic discussion - isn't there potentially more cost implications in early wearing of machine internals?

Prosumer machines are not designed to be left on 24/7 are they?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I tried a Wemo but unfortunately I had a lot of trouble getting it to stay connected. I was using it with the android app, and also with Geo rules on IFTTT so it would come on as I neared home, or turn off of I went out without remembering to turn it off. Admittedly the problem may have been my network/router, but after going without coffee for 3 workdays out of 5 I'm afraid I lost patience with it. I'm also not sure how secure they are - many of these Internet of Things devices are vulnerable to being hacked and co-opted into a botnet such as happened with the huge DNS takedown by 'Mirai'.

The only issue I can see with insulating the boiler is that it might upset the PID values and makes it harder for the machine to remain at the correct temperature. Would it not be more likely to overshoot? And if you insulated the whole cabinet would that not subject the control board to higher temps? It would save electricity but at what cost?

Sorry, I realised that all sounds a bit negative, but those are the issues that may need to be considered in addition. Equally, they might not be that real if I'm wrong. Just thinking out loud...


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Wemo - security is something I thought of as well, then again if someone can hack it it only really gives them access to the coffee machine right?

Insulation - you can retune the PID (most units have autotuning functionality) so it's not a big issue. I personally wouldn't insulate the box as it would then increase the internal temp of the casing and might cause premature failure of electronic components.

T.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

dsc said:


> Wemo - security is something I thought of as well, then again if someone can hack it it only really gives them access to the coffee machine right?
> 
> T.


https://www.wired.com/2016/12/botnet-broke-internet-isnt-going-away/amp/

Wrong. They have effectively penetrated your network and can potentially access all devices on it. Moreover, they are not interested in turning your coffee machine on and off - unfortunately what they do then is make your Wemo part of a botnet that can be used in DDoS attacks. Some network enabled devices allow you to choose a password to make these sort of things more difficult. Unfortunately many manufacturers don't consider security and ship these things with hard coded passwords like 0000 or some other weak password that is the same for all their products. Those might be Internet switches like the Wemo, also security cameras that can be viewed on your phone are another classic, as are 'smart' fridges. Sorry, I'm taking this off topic now, I'll get back in me box!


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I assumed manufacturers would put something in place to stop people getting access past the device, but I guess I was too optimistic. Hmm, not sure I'm so keen on this switch now, can you disable Internet access to the Wemo? to be honest I wouldn't mind just programming it to turn on at certain times and leave it be.

T.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> I think a lot of cares turn their machines off at night. The simple equation is does it take more juice on stand for 12 hours or starting up


Turning your machine on twice a day with a few hours idle is going to cost less than leaving it on 24/7


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## Crema&Confusion (Feb 10, 2017)

I'm slightly energy conscious so I tend to keep mine off I until it's needed.


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## Bertybobby (Apr 29, 2021)

Gaggia Classic Pro - On at 7.30am, off at 5pm with 5 brews uses about 0.5 kwh. So about 8 pence per day.

Draws 1300w when element is on, and 1.5w when element is off (which is vast majority of the time).


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Bertybobby said:


> Gaggia Classic Pro - On at 7.30am, off at 5pm with 5 brews uses about 0.5 kwh. So about 8 pence per day.
> 
> Draws 1300w when element is on, and 1.5w when element is off (which is vast majority of the time).


 @Bertybobby Welcome to the forum. This is a little chestnut that regularly does the round of forums all over the world. Usually with energy usage being the focus. There is an awful lot of confusion around the issue and how much electricity espresso machines use. At idle, once warmed up, on average the different type of machines use the following (averaged), a little less if insulated.



SBDU HX about 70-80W


HX about 90W


Dual Boiler about 80W, if steam boiler on as well 140W


Dual Boiler spring Lever Machine Vesuvius EVO Leva about 100W, if steam boiler on 150W


Traditional HX spring Lever about 160W+


I've obviously not included things like Pavonis.

I have seen people say, from time to time that leaving a machine on is better because it can use less energy, under certain circumstances. This is not correct and breaks the laws of thermodynamics, probably the 1st law. With any machine, leaving it on for long periods of time is a matter of *convenience*.* Turning a machine off when not using it always saves energy. *It is good for the machine as well to not leave it on for very extended periods e.g. overnight, or when you go out for half a day.

P.S. Something to think about. If you have a machine on in an electrically heated house ()at normal unit rate), non heat pump, then whilst the heating is on, the machine helps heat the house. So the true extra cost of having the machine on is almost 0. If you use gas heating, it's about 5 times cheaper than electric....so the true cost is reduced by 20%, and for different systems like heat pump, cheap rate night storage etc.. you can do the math.

In summer, the heat is unwanted and effectively not of value.

P.P.S. too much on and off can get to a point where deep thermal cycling can cause longer term issues....e.g. every hour or two. Except for the steam boiler where it's always better to run with it off unless needed.


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## Bertybobby (Apr 29, 2021)

@DavecUK Totally agree that an off machine uses less electricity than one that is on!

The only point I am making is what the Gaggia uses over that time period and what the cost is. So unless someone is really, really worried about money or the environment, then leaving it on during the day is no biggie and costs a few pence over turning on and off throughout the day - maybe even the same with repeat warm ups (but I am not going to waste my time trying to calculate if I might save myself 4p!).

Leaving on overnight whilst asleep would still be a waste compared to one heat up in the morning.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Bertybobby I don't disagree, which is why I said it's a matter of convenience....I leave my machines on all day, because it's convenient to do so. On at 8:00 am and off at 11:00 pm


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## P1Fanatic (Mar 6, 2021)

I wouldn't leave one on overnight purely from a safety standpoint. Anything that generates heat has the potential to cause a fire. I scoffed at my wife when we first moved in together and she didn't want the dishwasher on overnight as a friend had one catch fire. Since then I know 2 people personally and a friend of my mums who have had house fires started by dishwashers - one of which was whilst they were asleep upstairs with 2 young kids. My previous Bosch dishwasher also had a part recall due to it starting a fire in one case. Not saying Coffee machines are as dangerous but why take the risk?


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

I hate to think of an L1 left on for long periods. No insulation, just think what all that heat is doing to all the plastic inside the machine. The insulation of the wires, the plastic around the connectors, the Gicar box etc etc. I preheat mine for 45 mins, pull the my shot. Clean the machine, switch it off and drink my coffee. Its coming up for 8 years old and still looks immaculate inside.


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