# Re-dial beans as time goes by: yet another cannot dial post



## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

Recently, I had to challenge my limited knowledge about roasted beans lifecycle and their properties as far as espresso shots are concerned. Grind size on both had to change non-trivially to achieve the same results, all else being equal. This was true for 2 different setups of equipment.

First the *problem/experiment:*

- Two beans: 1) Washed Swiss Water Decaf, Huila Colombia, Caturra/Castillo, >1100MASL; 2) Natural, Tre Pontas Brazil, Acaia, ~1000MASL

- less than a week fresh, smell amazing, taste divine

- after dialling them in I got perfect times (~30sec) and ground to coffee ratios (1:2) on 2 setups (grind settings presented for relative comparison, numbers themselves mean nothing):

1a) Decaf: Sage BE, grind setting *5*, 20g in portafilter

1b) Decaf: Gaggia Classic + Niche grinder, grind setting *11*, 18g in portafilter

2a) Natural: Sage BE, grind setting *2*, 20g in portafilter

2b) Natural: Gaggia Classic + Niche grinder, grind setting *5*, 18g in portafilter

- I had to redial the beans with time, week or two later, the "perfect" shots (ratio and time) were achieved with all else being the same but different grind settings:

1a) Decaf: Sage BE, grind setting *1*, 20g in portafilter

1b) Decaf: Gaggia Classic + Niche grinder, grind setting *3*, 18g in portafilter

2a) Natural: Sage BE, grind setting *5*, 20g in portafilter

2b) Natural: Gaggia Classic + Niche grinder, grind setting *12*, 18g in portafilter

- I always purged grinders before different beans

- Beans were kept in their bags with one way valve.

*Summary of results*:

So *for Decaf* beans I had to grind them *finer (5->1, 11->3)* and finer with time (sort of what I expected from beans that go staler with time).

But *for Natural *beans I had to grind them *coarser (2->5, 3->12)* with time to achieve the same timings and ratios.

The tastes in both cases did not change much with time, once I dialled them in (according to my limited palate)

I must say that along the way the grind size fluctuated back and forth a bit. I expected to just keep grinding the beans finer and finer with time.

*Question:*

Why would different beans behave differently with time? So that's kind of interesting, is it decaf vs non decaf? Did some of them degas sooner? Thing to note, that even when beans were not dialled perfectly, shots were pretty good, crema nice and thick, taste amazing. Often I'd get 30g out (instead of 40g) from 20g in and it tastes great. Or timing drops to 23sec, or goes up to 45 sec - still good taste.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Yes one is decaf..

There are different ratios thst produce different form of tasty.

As you are discovering nothing magic happens at 30 seconds or at 1:2.


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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Yes one is decaf..
> 
> There are different ratios thst produce different form of tasty.
> 
> As you are discovering nothing magic happens at 30 seconds or at 1:2.


The question that bother me most is why I have to grind finer in one case, and coarser in another, as time goes by. Was you comment about decaf just that? decaf behaves differently? yeah, magic ratios are not that magic.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Beanedict said:


> The question that bother me most is why I have to grind finer in one case, and coarser in another, as time goes by. Was you comment about decaf just that? decaf behaves differently? yeah, magic ratios are not that magic.


Sorry in general decaf needs a finer grind v a nornal bean.

Why you are grinding one coarser and one finer as tone goes on I can not account for.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Do you even need to purge the Niche?

I don't get what you're doing with the Sage and Gaggia with different grind sizes...I take it the baskets are different sizes?

I don't get why you're having trouble dialling in if you say the shots taste amazing or good....but you shouldn't be seeing time fluctuations like that from one day to the next.

When coffee is very fresh (not rested) you need to grind coarser then when it's rested finer and eventually as it stales finer again. I typically dial in 1kg after a week of rest and don't adjust the grind again for at least two weeks. I might see a few seconds of fluctuation in shot times over the course of 3-4 weeks but I wouldn't expect 25 seconds one day 35 the next or even 30 really. I don't store coffee in bags with one way valves, I put them in ziplock backs and squeeze the air out and the beans don't become stale this way for a long time. I don't drink decaf but I've heard it needs to be ground finer generally.

When you say "perfect" ratio and time you're referring to what you've dialled in right? Not some magical figure that's going to deliver good coffee. A 1:2 won't always be perfect and 30 seconds won't always be perfect.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

One machine could have a significantly lower temp than the other. Lower temp perhaps might lead to a differnt tone frame as it extracts the coffee slower, worse.

Am guessing now though.


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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

Rob1 said:


> Do you even need to purge the Niche?
> 
> I don't get what you're doing with the Sage and Gaggia with different grind sizes...I take it the baskets are different sizes?
> 
> ...


Thanks for your thoughts Rob1,

The most perplexing observation that I wanted to share and gather thoughts is that some beans (case in point Decaf) need grinding coarser as time goes by. If I don't do that, I hardly get any coffee out below 60 sec. All other information was provided to eliminate the obvious and waste our time







like machine calcification, clean the grinder, etc. experiment was conducted pretty much at the same time for the same two types beans, on different gear, so it's not the equipment that causes the variation. Timings and ratios specified, again, for reference, so we know that are the initial parameters, regardless of the taste. In other words, all else being the same (as much as I could describe and control), 1-2 weeks later, one needs to be ground finer (or it just pulls through in 15 sec) and another needs to be ground coarser (or it gives only 3 drops in 60 sec). That was curious to me, as if natural bean gets a second breath of gas







later on and decaf one goes "stale" much faster... or something









so all other info just to inform, sage and gaggia have same volume ish (18-20g) but diameter vary (58 vs 54), no need to purge Niche (of course) but just saying that both were pretty clean. Taste is not an issue (except extreme cases), but more an observation on technicals and trying to figure out why. Interesting that you store your beans like that, something for me to think about. fluctuations in grind size required (to achieve the same ratio and time) between the first (week 0) and last (week 3) shot are not as great but seem to go in any direction on any given day, but the trend was as described, decaf needs finer grind, natural needs coarser grind ... so far. Both were 1kg bags, nearly finished, so not sure how long I can run the experiment.


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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> One machine could have a significantly lower temp than the other. Lower temp perhaps might lead to a differnt tone frame as it extracts the coffee slower, worse.
> 
> Am guessing now though.


I see, so the temp can tip the balance between multiple processes at play? say increased gas release, breaking/extracting different oils and goodness, etc. but for the same machine it should not matter, right? I normally make 3 shots or so in a row (letting the machine to warm up), with the same results per machine per day, so temp fluctuations are kind of out of the question.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Beanedict said:


> so all other info just to inform, sage and gaggia have same volume ish (18-20g) but diameter vary (58 vs 54), no need to purge Niche (of course) but just saying that both were pretty clean. Taste is not an issue (except extreme cases), but more an observation on technicals and trying to figure out why.
> 
> ...Both were 1kg bags, nearly finished, so not sure how long I can run the experiment.


I'm a bit lost. You say taste is not an issue, so presumably they tasted at least acceptable. So, what is 'the experiment'. If it's just to determine what you have to do to maintain 30s shots, what is the point? Variation in shot time is normal.

If it was an experiment to see what your preference was, wouldn't you at least have some subjective taste scoring? (Not necessarily double blinded etc., as you're just making shots in your own environment and only you have to like them).

It's also difficult to draw conclusions when making so few shots over different conditions. For 2x 1kg bags you had enough beans & time to make 10 shots each on both machines.

At a glance, your variation in settings seems bizarrely large for a dialled in procedure.


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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

@MWJB,

the experiment/observation is about the beans changing their properties in opposite directions as time passes by. The property being oiliness/viscosity/staleness/stickyness whatever it is that makes water jut pass through or get stuck in that juicy puck. I said that I make 3-4 shots in one go, not that 3 shots was the only thing that I made, over the first days I must have made 10-20 shots, all consistent for the same grind settings. So the sampling size was ok, I think. Fast-forward to week 3 and the same settings are way off, which is fine, if it was not for the fact that tuning the grind size had to be done in the opposite direction for 2 types of beans. I found it interesting. Hope it cleared things a bit.


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## HBLP (Sep 23, 2018)

How are you storing your beans? I don't think such a massive change should be required over a few weeks. I keep my beans in the 2/3 layer sealed bags with 1-way valve and usually don't notice any change whatsoever from 2 weeks post roast to 4-6 weeks post roast, and then I require very small adjustments finer (with any bean, though I haven't ever pulled decaf).

Actually, that's a point; how fresh were the beans when you first dialled them in? If it was


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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

@HBLP, that was usually my experience with other beans - no significant change once dialled in, some of them were


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## HBLP (Sep 23, 2018)

Beanedict said:


> @HBLP, that was usually my experience with other beans - no significant change once dialled in, some of them were
> 
> Are you storing them somewhere warm, not sealed or exposed to the sun?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Beanedict said:


> @HBLP, that was usually my experience with other beans - no significant change once dialled in, some of them were
> 
> Creation of crema is not variable I tend to place any significance on.
> 
> Again your gaggia may be operating at a significantly different temp? This may impact crema creation for what it's worth?


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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

@Mrboots2u temperature on gaggia is something I cannot objectively measure, so this might be it, but Sage BE has PID. I don't know if a few degrees can cause significant changes, perhaps they can. @HBLP beans are stored at room temperature in a cupboard in original bags, however, some beans remaining in the hopper of Sage BE for 24 hours in a warm machine. Then I put some more beans from the bag, which may account for some fluctuations, I guess.

What confused me was that 2 setups, I tried the beans on, do not have the same problems, but the beans behaved in the same way, i.e. no hopper in Niche, but gaggia temp may vary, hopper in Sage BE but no wild temp variations. Also, other fresh beans did not do that before. It's possible that 2 setups created the same results from different causes, some of which are unknown to me. That's why I thought I'd ask if this is the thing that happens with beans normally.


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