# Advice for upgrade, best grind quality ~£600



## chinery (Apr 14, 2014)

Looking for an upgrade from a MK Vario for espresso, ideally around £600 and happy with used.

I get a bit lost reading grinder reviews because there's lots of text about ease of use, retention, speed, etc, but very little about grind quality - which I understand because it's harder to quantify objectively.

The best espresso I ever had was from an EK43 and the shop aimed for high extraction. I know it's not that simple in practice, but say that's my metric. Given that I can't afford an EK43, what's my best option for getting high extraction out of the common 65mm+ grinders? How do the Eureka E65, Rocket Fausto, ECM S-Automatik, etc compare in terms of quality, is there a clear winner or is it all about the same and the other features are the ones to look for? Should I just rearrange my kitchen to make room for a used K30? (It might fit... just...)


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

chinery said:


> Looking for an upgrade from a MK Vario for espresso, ideally around £600 and happy with used.
> 
> I get a bit lost reading grinder reviews because there's lots of text about ease of use, retention, speed, etc, but very little about grind quality - which I understand because it's harder to quantify objectively.
> 
> The best espresso I ever had was from an EK43 and the shop aimed for high extraction. I know it's not that simple in practice, but say that's my metric. Given that I can't afford an EK43, what's my best option for getting high extraction out of the common 65mm+ grinders? How do the Eureka E65, Rocket Fausto, ECM S-Automatik, etc compare in terms of quality, is there a clear winner or is it all about the same and the other features are the ones to look for? Should I just rearrange my kitchen to make room for a used K30? (It might fit... just...)


Sounds like space is a problem....why not consider the Niche Zero.


----------



## chinery (Apr 14, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> Sounds like space is a problem....why not consider the Niche Zero.


Vertical space is not an issue at all, but it's just a bit tight horizontally (K30 would be breaking point but doable if it's worth it). Haven't come across the Niche Zero so will add it to the list, but think I'd prefer flat burrs - admittedly with nothing to go on except what I've tried, happy to be proven wrong!

Edit: Having just watched the IndieGoGo video, I don't think the Niche matches my brief at all sadly. I'm all for zero retention, but it's not a priority, I'll work around it if I need to. I just want proven high quality grind.


----------



## chinery (Apr 14, 2014)

You know, perhaps the K30 is not as wide as I remembered, and/or the others aren't as slim as I imagine (I find it hard to believe the 65E is only 2cm narrower). So I think a used K30 would work, they pop up on eBay more often than the others, and I know I like the coffee it makes. But, still interested to see if there's newer machines that people think compete for the quality, surely in all these years the technology has come along?


----------



## Inspector (Feb 23, 2017)

Have you checked for sale section on here?


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

chinery said:


> You know, perhaps the K30 is not as wide as I remembered, and/or the others aren't as slim as I imagine (I find it hard to believe the 65E is only 2cm narrower). So I think a used K30 would work, they pop up on eBay more often than the others, and I know I like the coffee it makes. But, still interested to see if there's newer machines that people think compete for the quality, surely in all these years the technology has come along?


Yep the Niche, ohh it's not your cup of tea! plus the other 50 people who have bought it.


----------



## chinery (Apr 14, 2014)

Inspector said:


> Have you checked for sale section on here?


Yes of course, I check it regularly. But I'm not looking for a sale, just the info (obviously both would be even better).


----------



## chinery (Apr 14, 2014)

Jony said:


> Yep the Niche, ohh it's not your cup of tea! plus the other 50 people who have bought it.


You've lost me. The other people who bought it what?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Without sounding harsh, you are speaking to some people on here who have extensive knowledge of grinders and what they do. it probably went over your head but post 2 gave you a possible solution. The Niche is about to dispatch the grinders it launched on Indiegogo. It was not a launch really as the prototypes were 3 years in testing, but a way of raising the funds required for tooling. It has been tested, taken apart and abused by @DavecUK and given a good bill of health, and all for around £500. It matters not if it is flat or conical, except to say a small rule of thumb was that conics did not work so well with lighter beans.

You talk about K30's without owning one? Why do you want one? I admit the Malkhonig burr set is very good but they retain and offer the home user nowt in my humble (yes, I have had one). The newer versions are not without trouble and ~£600 is going to get you a battered and bruised K30 on eBay, the place to source all bargains.......the grinders you mention in the 65ish mm are all crap.....I suggest you find the Niche thread and read it from start to finish, then tell us why it is not best suited to your needs........

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?39577-Niche-Grinder&highlight=niche


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> ....I suggest you find the Niche thread and read it from start to finish, then tell us why it is not best suited to your needs........


I "think" he has only seen the Indeigogo video and not the review I did. Even in the review, I wasn't asked not to make reference to the Mazzer Kony 63mm burr set at the time. I'm willing to be corrected, but I do see the 63mm Koney Conical burr as an exceptionally good burrset. Trouble is once you set your heart on a grinder, it's hard to change course. When I first saw a K30 well over a decade ago...I though wow, really like it. Of course we all move on and I don't really hold it in the same reverence I did then.

Perhaps he will not have purchased a grinder before the Niches get into the hands of owners in a few weeks time....then he can read what other also have to say about it. Certainly one of my friends who has ordered one was very surprised when I bought mine round and he put it up against his 83mm Ceado E37S costing more than double the price.... @chinery, you're only in Bletchley, if ever passing my, you are welcome to drop in and see a Niche Zero, or two..


----------



## chinery (Apr 14, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> Without sounding harsh, you are speaking to some people on here who have extensive knowledge of grinders and what they do. it probably went over your head but post 2 gave you a possible solution. The Niche is about to dispatch the grinders it launched on Indiegogo. It was not a launch really as the prototypes were 3 years in testing, but a way of raising the funds required for tooling. It has been tested, taken apart and abused by @DavecUK and given a good bill of health, and all for around £500. It matters not if it is flat or conical, except to say a small rule of thumb was that conics did not work so well with lighter beans.
> 
> You talk about K30's without owning one? Why do you want one? I admit the Malkhonig burr set is very good but they retain and offer the home user nowt in my humble (yes, I have had one). The newer versions are not without trouble and ~£600 is going to get you a battered and bruised K30 on eBay, the place to source all bargains.......the grinders you mention in the 65ish mm are all crap.....I suggest you find the Niche thread and read it from start to finish, then tell us why it is not best suited to your needs........


You don't sound harsh at all, this is a really useful reply. The reason I'm asking is because there are people on here with extensive knowledge of grinders, so I apologise if I sounded dismissive. Let me be honest, I had never heard of the Niche Zero, so I googled it, and watched a very unimpressive IndieGoGo video which was full of the exact same claims I was talking about before, all about features and nothing about quality. So, I started reading threads on here, but the one I found was 130 pages long. I read most of the first two and last two but all I saw were people excited for their pre-order. I also assumed it was being recommend as a space-saver since Dave mentioned that, and I wanted to correct that impression since I mostly don't mind how big it is if it's worthwhile. But I'll admit perhaps I was too quick to be dismissive, any chance you can link me to the hands-on reviews? Honestly, I am still unlikely to want to order something like that until it's been in the wild for a bit and I can read real user opinions.

The reason I am talking about the K30 is because I have been a regular at a shop that used one, and I liked their espresso. I know tastes differ and I'm not here to be judgemental about that, so I wanted to start with what I know.



dfk41 said:


> the grinders you mention in the 65ish mm are all crap


Is exactly the kind of advice I was looking for really, assuming you are talking about their grind quality, because functionality-wise something like the 65E looks very tempting.


----------



## chinery (Apr 14, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> I "think" he has only seen the Indeigogo video and not the review I did. Even in the review, I wasn't asked not to make reference to the Mazzer Kony 63mm burr set at the time. I'm willing to be corrected, but I do see the 63mm Koney Conical burr as an exceptionally good burrset. Trouble is once you set your heart on a grinder, it's hard to change course. When I first saw a K30 well over a decade ago...I though wow, really like it. Of course we all move on and I don't really hold it in the same reverence I did then.
> 
> Perhaps he will not have purchased a grinder before the Niches get into the hands of owners in a few weeks time....then he can read what other also have to say about it. Certainly one of my friends who has ordered one was very surprised when I bought mine round and he put it up against his 83mm Ceado E37S costing more than double the price.... @chinery, you're only in Bletchley, if ever passing my, you are welcome to drop in and see a Niche Zero, or two..


Thanks Dave! That's a fine offer. My family is from Woking so I certainly come that way from time to time, and I'm in no rush to upgrade either, really. I occasionally go through phases where I spend all day researching it and then give up. But I've been thinking about planning to upgrade for over a year. I had my heart set on a Mazzer Mini for ages until I started to see the negative posts about that. I will dig out your review of the Niche and perhaps also wait to see what people think when they get their hands on them.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

chinery said:


> Thanks Dave! That's a fine offer. My family is from Woking so I certainly come that way from time to time, and I'm in no rush to upgrade either, really. I occasionally go through phases where I spend all day researching it and then give up. But I've been thinking about planning to upgrade for over a year. I had my heart set on a Mazzer Mini for ages until I started to see the negative posts about that. I will dig out your review of the Niche and perhaps also wait to see what people think when they get their hands on them.


You are welcome to drop in any time (I don't work) and play with the Niche, you can even bring your own favourite coffees to try...in case there is some trickery with my coffees. Just give me a little warning.

https://www.nichecoffee.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Niche-zero-review.pdf

This is the link to the review I did, download it and then all the click links to the videos I did should work. It's a very thorough review and Mark @MWJB Helped me out a lot on the brewed side of things last year.

The main thing to think about is that if you have to waste or purge even 10g per day the grinder is effectively free in less than 10 years because of the savings made!


----------



## chinery (Apr 14, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> You are welcome to drop in any time (I don't work) and play with the Niche, you can even bring your own favourite coffees to try...in case there is some trickery with my coffees. Just give me a little warning.
> 
> https://www.nichecoffee.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Niche-zero-review.pdf
> 
> ...


Just read the review and obviously my interest is piqued. I can see now that my reaction was foolish! One question for you, if you don't mind, did Mark @MWJB happen to use the refractometer on the espresso shots at all?

I certainly don't suspect you of any trickery Dave, even though I appreciate all the steps you take in your videos. I am trusting person and you seem like a very honest guy, add to that your vast experience means I take your recommendation very seriously. I would love to have a grinder that was high quality and designed for the home, I just didn't think it'd ever happen! I will take you up on the offer and let you know, and I would only bring my own beans just so I have a known reference point!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

chinery said:


> Just read the review and obviously my interest is piqued. I can see now that my reaction was foolish! One question for you, if you don't mind, did Mark @MWJB happen to use the refractometer on the espresso shots at all?.


No, I was just there to try out the grinder for brewed.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Fwiw my k30 will be going up for sale very soon - £600 ish.


----------



## ohms (Jan 22, 2018)

I'll possibly be selling my Macap MXD grinder soon - 75mm flat burrs. Fantastic grinder, I really can't fault it. Barely used too!


----------

