# E61 Group Head... worth the extra?



## Wolvesnev (Nov 11, 2018)

Ok, so here's the thing...

I've got a Delonghi ES330 that I've had for 10 years that i'm now looking to upgrade to a 'proper' machine. I'd been planning on getting a Silvia until I popped into Bella Barista last week and got chatting. I'm now wondering whether it's worth pushing to boat out to get a Lelit Mara, clearly it's twice the price plus a bit more, so I need to weigh up whether it's worth it.

Having spent so long with the Delonghi, i'm used to not being able to steam and brew at the same time. The Silvia will clearly be a huge upgrade to what I've got, but I can't stop wondering if it's worth skipping the Silvia step and moving up further.

My question is, other that concurrent steaming/brewing, what benefits will the Mara give? Is the E61 that much better than what's in the Silvia, and if so, why?

i have mainly drunk espressos over the last few years, but in the last couple of weeks have been doing more milk based drinks as I have been researching new machines, to see whether HX or DB would be worth it.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

A lot of people feel that the Silvia offers little more than a Classic but at a higher price point. An E61 will arguably give you greater thermal stability due to the sheer weight of the group (the flip side of which is the time it takes to heat up, about 40 min from cold). You will also likely benefit from faster recovery between shots, greater steaming power, and not have to cool the machine down after steaming before pulling the next shot (assuming you might have friends round and be making more than one drink).

You could get similar results to a Silvia with a Classic, but the money you'd save could go to a grinder or more/better beans possibly. But I think the benefit of better consistency offered by an E61 machine would simply mean a greater number of shots turning out how you wanted them to, with less waste and more enjoyment. That was my experience when I went from Classic to E61 DB. But it is a sizeable investment for sure.

___

Eat, drink and be merry


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Once you've looked into fitting a PID to the silvia to remove the need for temperature surfing, the price difference will be smaller (especially if you decide to get an auber).

The Silvia also isn't the machine it was a few years ago due to them putting an auto shutoff in to comply with EU regs which gets in the way of preheating it.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Just the fact that you're asking the question means don't get the Silvia, get the E61 machine and get a dual boiler. That's what you really want so short circuit the expensive upgrade path and get something nice.....If you can afford it.


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## Wolvesnev (Nov 11, 2018)

Thanks for the replies. I've already got a Rocky with tube stepless mod and spend more on beans than my current machine can do justice to, so that's not an issue at the moment. Whichever I decide to get i'm hoping the grinder should be up to the task to at least give decent results until it needs replacing (Rocky is now 5 yrs old).

My Dad's has Classics for the last 20 years or so, his current model is a Romanian made, pre-Phillips overall control model. It's in for a service atm (not sure where he sent it) and the guy told him that if it had been a current model then there would have been no point as they're no longer at the standard they used to be. This is what's steered me towards the Silvia instead of the classic, although I get your point about the new auto shutoff on it.

I can afford an E61 machine, the issue is more justifying the extra expense.

A HX machine doesn't use a PID for brew temp, so surely that still needs a certain degree of temp surfing? Again, i've had to do something similar to heat the PF on my Delonghi for the past 10 yrs, so temp surfing isn't that much of a hassle for me as it's pretty much habit now, and having watched a couple of SCG videos on it, it looks pretty straightforward.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

If you can afford it buy one, if you have to justify to buy one don't.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Whilst a HX doesn't have a PID the thermosyphon loop that feed the group will be tuned to deliver the right temperature to the puck. Many HX machines benefit from a cooling flush before brew.

What separates a prosumer HX from a Silvia is the big heavy group and the size of the boiler. These two things create temp stability that can be maintained over multiple shots.

With temp surfing on the Silvia you can get to the point where you are have a repeatable process, but if you want to pull multiple shots it becomes a pain in the arse. It's also just a bit of a kick in the teeth to have to baby such an expensive machine.

That said, if you install a mecoffee PID or Auber they can be very temp stable over a single shot.

As Dave reccomends a DB machine will give you the most control. They often now come with a built in PID which gives you the info on the temp of the shot.

You can always consider a second hand DB machine to save yourself some money. If you buy from the forum you can be pretty sure it will have been very well looked after.

There is also the Sage DB which is a very capable machine, it doesn't have shiny polished steel looks but it brings a lot of features to the table for its price point. It may also be discounted come Black Friday.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I did almost exactly as you have done. Needed to replace my trusty Classic after many years of faithful happy service. Kind of decided on Silvia as an "upgrade/sidestep" then found a great condition 2nd hand E61 Rocket Appartamento. Couldn't be happier with it to be honest and so glad I skipped the Silvia. I'm sure they're good but you'll never be sad when you come down in the morning and see all the lovely chrome of an E61 looking back at you


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## Wolvesnev (Nov 11, 2018)

chimpsinties said:


> I'm sure they're good but you'll never be sad when you come down in the morning and see all the lovely chrome of an E61 looking back at you


This is true!

Thanks for all the replies. I still can't make my mind up, and i'm a bit nervous about spending several hundred pounds on a second hand machine that you have no recourse on if it's duff.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Wolvesnev said:


> This is true!
> 
> Thanks for all the replies. I still can't make my mind up, and i'm a bit nervous about spending several hundred pounds on a second hand machine that you have no recourse on if it's duff.


Buy from the forum. I don't think I have seen a single 'duff' machine sold here (or at least when there has been a problem the seller has gone out of their way to rectify. Most 'problems' arise from couriers). Machines do break down (both new and old) but most of them are really very simple plumbing and fairly easy to diagnose and fix - something you can seek help for here.

Most of the classic e61 style machines are over-engineered for the home environment, being based off of commercial designs and parts. As such they can last a very long time and are relatively easy to maintain.

Having a warrantee is nice for peace of mind, but if you are limited in your budget then the best way to get the most for your money is to buy S/H from a reliable source.


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## Wolvesnev (Nov 11, 2018)

So i've decided against the Silvia due to many of the reasons outlined in the replies above. I'm now weighing up the PL62 Mara against the Sage DB. The Lelit machine seems much more sturdily built, looks better and is cheaper. The Sage clearly has the 'fiddleability' and an extra year's warranty from Lakeland (for a price).


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## willvo84 (Dec 1, 2018)

I've had a Silvia for 4 years, and now looking at an upgrade. If you can afford & justify the spend upfront, surely it would be a false economy not to.


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