# Orphan Pharos Faulty? Or just dumb user error



## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Hey a Orphan Pharos that I pickup up off of eBay just arrived and in the process of getting to grips (quite literally) with it, but I'm a bit concerned about a few things. First of I'm grinding course but the beans are not feeding through and appear to be getting stuck on the side (see picture 1). Also I am having to do at least 100 revolutions of the handle to grind through even 15g of beans. On finer espresso grinds it seems to be better but the amount of work needed to grind through espresso grind is really making me think something is wrong. I've attached all the photos of the setup in case it's just user error. Picture 1 is where the grinds are sometimes jamming and picture 2 and 3 is of the grind adjustment. Picture 3 is from what I understand is the maximum courseness as it cannot move any furgher but from what I am getting on picture 4 seems still pretty fine.


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)




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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)




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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I don't have a Pharos, but that burr gap looks huge (3-4mm?), why so coarse?


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

[IMG alt="" data-src=""]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png[/IMG]


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

That's what I thought but the grind I am getting out of it is from what I can tell medium grind


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

veganwithabeef said:


> That's what I thought but the grind I am getting out of it is from what I can tell medium grind


 I can't tell much from that photo.

What method are you using to brew & why do you think it is medium?

I have noticed with very coarse grind settings with other grinders, bean fragments can get stuck when exiting the burrs.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Has it been cleaned out and re-calibrated ? grounds and oily residue in the burrs ?

Reading on other forums apparently your problem is not uncommon. It is believed to be caused by the slow turning of the burrs (from electric grinders) it supposedly allows the larger pieces of bean to ' wiggle through' the burrs and exit. It is also suggested that the Pharos is not ideal for brewed coffee.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

If it grinds for espresso it will grind for brewed. But I've never seriously ground, even for brewed, with that kind of burr gap.


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Yh I'm a bit confused myself as I just tried to dial in for espresso and it takes routinely 50+ rotations for 19g of beans when I was under the impression this was suppose to chew through beans fairly easily. Hasn't been cleaned out so that is now one of the things on my list aswell as burr alignment :/. Neither am I confident in doing with this machine but the orphan espresso founder has a ton of videos online on doing it so at least that's a plus. I'm just hoping it's not due to overuse of the burrs as this machine has apparently had around 10kg of beans through it according to the seller


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

The burrs should be OK for 100 kg let alone 10kg! It may need aligning. That is fiddly but the Orphan videos walk you through it. From the pics this is either a modded one or a later one. Around 30 turns should get you 18g of espresso grade grounds. 
It may well need cleaning. Other than that, I can see no reason why it would take 100 turns.


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Thanks everyone for the replies, I have to be up early today so I'll probably start tinkering with it later today or tomorrow, most likely disassembling it and cleaning it our ?. It wasn't cleaned out when I received and it has been modded so I'm wondering if the modder messed up the alignment.

Will update when all's done and done


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

You should be able to go so coarse that the bottom burr sits on the lower bearing (at least with mine) the threading on your axel might be different for the adjustment ring on yours so there might be a limit there but you shouldn't need to grind coarser than that for anything. The burrs should spin freely when there is nothing in them until they start touching obviously so if it's difficult to turn the handle at a coarse setting you might have an alignment issue with the upper and lower bearings if the grinder wasn't assembled properly. The number of turns to grind increases with coarseness so while you say "espresso setting" I assume you've pulled a shot with this setting and seen it's really an espresso setting and not too fine? I never bothered counting the turns on mine but it would take about 30 seconds to grind and I'd get more than one turn in per second.


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Rob1 said:


> You should be able to go so coarse that the bottom burr sits on the lower bearing


 Pic 3 is what I think you're getting at which is when Is its coarsest setting for me but grind size wise it was barley a v60 grind and the grinds kept getting stuck.



Rob1 said:


> The number of turns to grind increases with coarseness so while you say "espresso setting" I assume you've pulled a shot with this setting and seen it's really an espresso setting and not too fine? I never bothered counting the turns on mine but it would take about 30 seconds to grind and I'd get more than one turn in per second.


 Do you mean here would be more turns for a Chemex vs a espresso as I thought it would be the other way round?


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Disassembly has begun. Took longer to find the tools for the job than actually dismantling the grinder, it was very easy. Parts as far as I can tell look dirty but good, no blockages either which I didn't suspect was the problem as there weren't any retention issues when the grinds did come through.

Quick question in terms of cleaning the burrs, is it recommended to just clean it with a dry cloth or toothbrush or should water or soap be used? Pics of the burrs down below


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)




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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)




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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)




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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)




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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)




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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

I personally would soak them in VERY (boiling) hot soapy water and use a hard tooth brush to clean in the grooves.

Rinse in boiling water and dry immediately , the residual heat should drive off any moisture OR you can place them somewhere warm to be sure.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I cleaned mine with isopropyl, it breaks through oil and evaporates quickly. Rinsing them off with boiling and soapy water won't hurt and isopropyl to rinse them afterwards will help dry them off...

Looks to be a lot of old oil and coffee there for "it's only had 10kg through it".



veganwithabeef said:


> Do you mean here would be more turns for a Chemex vs a espresso as I thought it would be the other way round?


 As I said more turns for a coarser grind, less force required, less aggressive grinding. You are only using the top part of the burrs.

The grinds are probably getting stuck just because they fall through the burrs until they fall free of the inner burr and get stuck between the middle plate (where there is no grinding surface) and the inner burr. Just rattling the handle up and down a couple of times should see them fall through.


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Thanks bit hesitant to put any water near these burrs but I'll give it a good cleaning with the brush to see if I can get rid of the old oils before resorting to water boarding it.

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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Looks to be a lot of old oil and coffee there for "it's only had 10kg through it". 
Haha the seller might be generously rounding down with that estimate. Do the burrs look alright as I was chatting with the owners of a coffee shop that I go to and I was under the impression burrs last - at least for home use - pretty much forever but I was told burrs will degrade over time and take longer to grind the worse they get. Will these need to replaced in the long run?

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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Rob1 said:


> Looks to be a lot of old oil and coffee there for "it's only had 10kg through it".


 Haha the seller might be generously rounding down with that estimate. Do the burrs look alright as I was chatting with the owners of a coffee shop that I go to and I was under the impression burrs last - at least for home use - pretty much forever but I was told burrs will degrade over time and take longer to grind the worse they get. Will these need to replaced in the long run?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Don't know. Run a thumb across the edges around the fine end and see if they still feel like there's an edge. You need to clean them up first and foremost. I'm not 100% sure but I think the Pharos uses the Rossi burr set which will set you back about £75 https://espresso-solutions.co.uk/rossi-conical-grinder-burr-set-68mm-rh/ so hopefully they'll still be good. They should be changed around every 750kg of coffee ground according to espressoparts.com "manufacturer recommendation" for 63mm conicals. They say you might want to change them at half that to maintain peak performance.

It looks to have been built at the end of 2013 so assume 6 years of use. If you have a hand grinder you probably aren't having more than one or two cups a day. It's an espresso grinder really so say 36g a day for 6 years = 36 * 365 * 6 = 78840. So round up to 80kg. If you aim to replace the burrs at about the 400kg mark you've still got plenty of life left in them.

I suppose burrs will degrade over time in the sense that everything falls apart eventually but really their lifespan is determined by use not time.


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Finished the assembly and aligned the burrs, the actual Pharos is quite smooth and in terms of grinding espresso it is chewing through them. The problem is what used to be a 3/4 turn from Zero is about half a turn and seems to be very inconsistent. Coarser settings is also just as inconsistent and if i were to persevere with this grinder i would only be able to dial for maybe a V60 or Press.

Any ideas for the less fine grind problem i.e have I not tightened the 4 middle screws enough?

Thanks

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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Also the amount of fines this thing is producing is concerning, for coarse I've heard of fine problems but since its primarily for espresso I thought I'll give it a pass, but this thing is clogging my espresso machine as well as being very sour in some shots. ;/

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

veganwithabeef said:


> Also the amount of fines this thing is producing is concerning, for coarse I've heard of fine problems but since its primarily for espresso I thought I'll give it a pass, but this thing is clogging my espresso machine as well as being very sour in some shots. ;/
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


 What are your shot parameters (dose, grind set, output & time)?

Coarse grind setting make fewer particles under a given, small size (under 250um for example)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

BTW... sounds like you need to go coarser.


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Right now I'm going 19g to 42g out. Grind was 3/4 from zero but now is 1/2 from zero. Time out is around 30 seconds but the shot is pretty sour and I'd like to go finer but it's clogging the machine.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

If it's clogging the machine you need to go coarser, or drop the dose a tad. What basket is it?

If you're even close to clogging the machine, you will be under-extracting (sour).

Zero being the point where your burrs audibly gnash?


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Are you sure you have the burrs aligned as well as possible? It's a lot of trial and error to find the optimum. When you have the burrs touching, do they touch all or most of the way around evenly? If they only touch over a small part of a revolution you will need to improve the alignment.


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Burrs are definitely aligned, no rubbing until gets down just past 1/8 to zero and the rubbing is at all sides past that point. Espresso grind is ok but dialing in is still a pain with the amount of turns its taking. Pretty much confirms that seller was fibbing about the amount of use this has had. The shots also seem be pretty inconsistent as i pulled the same dial twice and one brewed faster than the other one.

I was a bit sceptical when the seller was ok with dropping the price from £250 to 200 so i guess this is why.

Still glad I bought this as I was always curious about hand grinders and whether they were worth the effort vs just quality of the grind so this was a great learning experience about why I should definitely get a electric grinder at least for espresso.

Thanks for all the help, I'm sure ill need some more with whatever grinder I get to replace this so until then.

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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Rob666 said:


> Are you sure you have the burrs aligned as well as possible? It's a lot of trial and error to find the optimum. When you have the burrs touching, do they touch all or most of the way around evenly? If they only touch over a small part of a revolution you will need to improve the alignment.


Burrs are aligned but even if they were slightly off i don't think they would have this much effect on the coarser settings, finer its ok but the amount of turns is still indicative of the burrs going maybe?

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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

I very much doubt the burrs are worn or "going". It's more likely to be an issue that for some reason the moving burr is going out of alignment when on coarser settings. I'm not sure how this could happen but it seems possible to me. Is it tight to the shaft or can it wobble?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

veganwithabeef said:


> Burrs are definitely aligned, no rubbing until gets down just past 1/8 to zero and the rubbing is at all sides past that point. Espresso grind is ok but dialing in is still a pain with the amount of turns its taking. Pretty much confirms that seller was fibbing about the amount of use this has had. The shots also seem be pretty inconsistent as i pulled the same dial twice and one brewed faster than the other one.
> 
> I was a bit sceptical when the seller was ok with dropping the price from £250 to 200 so i guess this is why.
> 
> ...


 Did you grind at around the same speed or were you focused on counting the turns rather than just grinding at a consistent rate? I assume you're using the same coffee from the same bag? What espresso machine are you using it with?

Unless the grinder has been very heavily used over its entire lifetime the burrs will still be fine. Take my example of two doubles a day and triple it to six a day and you'll still have only put about 240kg through them.



> Right now I'm going 19g to 42g out. Grind was 3/4 from zero but now is 1/2 from zero. Time out is around 30 seconds but the shot is pretty sour and I'd like to go finer but it's clogging the machine.


 What coffee are you using, how fresh is it, what machine are you using, are the baskets pressurised or unpressurised? 1/2 from zero I think is the starting point for espresso recommended by OE.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

veganwithabeef said:


> Burrs are definitely aligned, no rubbing until gets down just past 1/8 to zero and the rubbing is at all sides past that point. Espresso grind is ok but dialing in is still a pain with the amount of turns its taking. Pretty much confirms that seller was fibbing about the amount of use this has had. The shots also seem be pretty inconsistent as i pulled the same dial twice and one brewed faster than the other one.
> 
> I was a bit sceptical when the seller was ok with dropping the price from £250 to 200 so i guess this is why.
> 
> ...


 £250 for a use Pharos would be too much.

Shot times vary. If they didn't, that would be suspicious.

We don't, as yet, have any evidence of a fault. It may well be that there is one, but what is the indicator that this is so?

You seem to have a bad feeling/mistrust of the seller. I think your emotional reaction to this purchase is on the negative side & that you're maybe never going to be happy with it. Which is the way things go sometimes, for all of us. But I can't say that you've exhausted giving it a fair crack yet.

If the burrs are aligned, then they are aligned coarse & fine. Coarser grinds always look less even than fine, but this is an illusion, because at all settings grinders make dust - dust compared to fine sand looks more even than dust compared to sea salt.


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

MWJB said:


> You seem to have a bad feeling/mistrust of the seller. I think your emotional reaction to this purchase is on the negative side & that you're maybe never going to be happy with it. Which is the way things go sometimes, for all of us. But I can't say that you've exhausted giving it a fair crack yet.


 On the contrary I like the seller, he's been very helpful and has been great with communication in regards to his personal dials for espresso.



MWJB said:


> £250 for a use Pharos would be too much.
> 
> Shot times vary. If they didn't, that would be suspicious.
> 
> We don't, as yet, have any evidence of a fault. It may well be that there is one, but what is the indicator that this is so?


 Im just a bit frustrated as a brand new one not including import tax would be £270, unless these issues are standard for all pharos' which Rob1 says they aren't. Rob1 says (even though I'm not under the illusion anymore or getting a grinder that can do both chemex and espresso) that the grinder should be able to do a v60 grind but when I pulled one with pictures the amount of fines and bolders in anything past a 1 from zero is in my opinion just not good. This is coming from someone who's switching from my virtuoso, so while not cheap this grinder should be blowing that one out of the water - at least that's what I thought.

I'd take pictures of the v60 grind but I've just been through nearly half a bag of darkwoods coffee and I don't want to waste any more. But there are more fines in this than on the virtuoso. Edit: here's a pic of one of the coarser grinds - there's just not way that can be normal for coarse with the amount of variations in grinds [IMG alt="" data-src=""]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png[/IMG]








Please coffect me if I've overblown my expectations but for the grind this thing is putting out right now id rather just go back to the virtuoso and save for a niche.


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Rob1 said:


> Did you grind at around the same speed or were you focused on counting the turns rather than just grinding at a consistent rate? I assume you're using the same coffee from the same bag? What espresso machine are you using it with?


 Didn't realise the consistency of speed was a factor (duh I guess). Speed is as consistent I can be but grip is an issue aswell. Espresso machine is a sage dual boiler.



Rob1 said:


> What coffee are you using, how fresh is it, what machine are you using, are the baskets pressurised or unpressurised? 1/2 from zero I think is the starting point for espresso recommended by OE.


 Darkwoods barrel aged coffee - bought it this week. From the videos I've seen they recommend 3/4 from zero which was fine for the first shot I did with the machine, but now it seems to clog every now and again.


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Rob666 said:


> I very much doubt the burrs are worn or "going". It's more likely to be an issue that for some reason the moving burr is going out of alignment when on coarser settings. I'm not sure how this could happen but it seems possible to me. Is it tight to the shaft or can it wobble?


 Tiny wobble, like a tenth of a mm


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

K trying another shot from 1/2 ?


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Yep clogged ?, calling it a night and will sleep on it.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Does the sage come with pressurised and unpressurised baskets? Just make sure you're using the proper basket.

Did you follow the videos on alignment and reassembly properly? There shouldn't be any jiggling movement from the handle aside from being able to lift it.

And just to eliminate one other possibility: when you adjust the grinder you keep the handle and grinder completely stationary and only move the adjustment nut?

In terms of best grip to use I found thumb around one bolt cover, little finger around the other, push down with the palm hard to keep it steady. Sometimes I'd just have the pinky wrapped around the cover and the thumb would come in closer to the outer burr. YMMV.


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Using the proper basket (just double checked - i am, thank f***)

Followed the videos, there seemed to be contradictions in some of the videos as some of the first ones ask the user to keep the 3 outer screws loose and focus on the inner 4 to maintain alignment while one video says screw the outer 3 tightly and that should maintain a good alignment just by themselves ?, the most recent one says is the one I'm following which is to make sure everything is secure in terms of the 3 outer screws and loosen the inner 4 screws and feel out for any rubbing.

I've gotten better at the grip but I've just added a pic of some of the coarser grinds to a reply to another user. If you could look at that that is where most of my concern/just confusion is stemming from.

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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

veganwithabeef said:


> On the contrary I like the seller, he's been very helpful and has been great with communication in regards to his personal dials for espresso.
> 
> Im just a bit frustrated as a brand new one not including import tax would be £270, unless these issues are standard for all pharos' which Rob1 says they aren't. Rob1 says (even though I'm not under the illusion anymore or getting a grinder that can do both chemex and espresso) that the grinder should be able to do a v60 grind but when I pulled one with pictures the amount of fines and bolders in anything past a 1 from zero is in my opinion just not good. This is coming from someone who's switching from my virtuoso, so while not cheap this grinder should be blowing that one out of the water - at least that's what I thought.
> 
> ...


 I'm not sure what you'e referring to here to be honest. I haven't mentioned v60 I don't think but yes I'd say it should be fine for any brew method, though not ideal for brewed due to the number of fines. The Virtuoso uses a different burr set and might well produce fewer fines at a coarse setting than a Pharos. With regards to your issues I'm not sure what I've said isn't common with all Pharos grinders? I would say at the same grind setting day to day you shouldn't be getting wildly different shot times i.e. a choker (nothing comes out) and a shot in 30 seconds. That is assuming you keep your dose the same every time and you aren't trying to adjust the grinder while letting the crank turn (assume not since you ignored the question).

I can't tell much by the picture but the grinds do look inconsistent this could be caused by them getting stuck though as you've mentioned so maybe this isn't something that'll effect an espresso grind but if your axle is jiggling laterally that should not be happening.



veganwithabeef said:


> Followed the videos, there seemed to be contradictions in some of the videos as some of the first ones ask the user to keep the 3 outer screws loose and focus on the inner 4 to maintain alignment while one video says screw the outer 3 tightly and that should maintain a good alignment just by themselves ?, the most recent one says is the one I'm following which is to make sure everything is secure in terms of the 3 outer screws and loosen the inner 4 screws and feel out for any rubbing.


 Yes they changed their procedures and users have their own tweaks. Follow their procedures for the new Pharos 2.0 for assembling everything. I think with that one they say to tighten the inner bolts in an x pattern while feeling for rubbing and very gently tapping with a hammer until you've got it adjusted as fine as possible and you don't get any rub when you take it a fraction out from zero. I think then they say to take the burrs to zero and torque down the inner bolts but could be wrong about that. By that point they'll be pretty tight anyway.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I wouldn't want to be switching from espresso & V60 back & forth with any grinder. V60 doesn't need any kind of amazing grinder to make good cups, whatever espresso grinder you end up with it would be best to keep that dialled in for espresso & use something else for V60.

That photo does not look like any grind I would use for any coffee method, it looks way too coarse. You're not listening to what I am saying about coarse grinds & perceived evenness. All grinders make dust at all settings. If your average grind is 400um, you will have dust plus some pieces around 1.5mm, if your average grind size is 800um (broadly drip range & finer than your photo) then you'll have dust & some pieces around 2.5mm, maybe larger. The difference between smallest & largest is greater with coarse grinds, but to know whether the grind is normal or not, you need to do more than look at it.

You say you made a V60 with the Pharos - what were the parameters (I know I keep asking for parameters, but photos of & opinions on grind don't tell us anything, actual use does).


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

MWJB said:


> I wouldn't want to be switching from espresso & V60 back & forth with any grinder. V60 doesn't need any kind of amazing grinder to make good cups, whatever espresso grinder you end up with it would be best to keep that dialled in for espresso & use something else for V60.
> 
> You say you made a V60 with the Pharos - what were the parameters (I know I keep asking for parameters, but photos of & opinions on grind don't tell us anything, actual use does).


 250ml to 15g in 2:30, it tastes good but nothing amazing, but it is very muddy as well as having large grinds. I was under the illusion that I would be able to get a grinder that could do both or at least switch between espresso and a medium grind which after doing more research it's clear that isn't a good idea. But under the description of the listing it said I would be easy to "dial from Turkish to a caffetierre blend with ease" and this before I did some more research. Even taking this into account this "dust" that you are saying will occur regardless is more than I'm getting out of my old Sette and this was suppose to be a stepup (not much but a step up). And dialing with this thing for espresso has been a nightmare as the Allen key tightening screw is pretty stripped out and something's causes slippage when adjusting the grind for espresso, making it hard to maintain where my last grind was.



Rob1 said:


> I'm not sure what you'e referring to here to be honest. I haven't mentioned v60 I don't think but yes I'd say it should be fine for any brew method, though not ideal for brewed due to the number of fines.


 Im not sure if it was you or the other Rob that had one of these that said you were able to grind coarser when I mentioned that I was maxing out the coarseness setting but was only able to achieve a medium grind maybe enough for a v60. This was when I was trying to grind for chemex which I now know I shouldn't with this grinder.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

veganwithabeef said:


> 250ml to 15g in 2:30, it tastes good but nothing amazing, but it is very muddy as well as having large grinds. I was under the illusion that I would be able to get a grinder that could do both or at least switch between espresso and a medium grind which after doing more research it's clear that isn't a good idea. But under the description of the listing it said I would be easy to "dial from Turkish to a caffetierre blend with ease" and this before I did some more research. Even taking this into account this "dust" that you are saying will occur regardless is more than I'm getting out of my old Sette and this was suppose to be a stepup (not much but a step up). And dialing with this thing for espresso has been a nightmare as the Allen key tightening screw is pretty stripped out and something's causes slippage when adjusting the grind for espresso, making it hard to maintain where my last grind was.
> 
> Im not sure if it was you or the other Rob that had one of these that said you were able to grind coarser when I mentioned that I was maxing out the coarseness setting but was only able to achieve a medium grind maybe enough for a v60. This was when I was trying to grind for chemex which I now know I shouldn't with this grinder.


 OK, your V60 method is just a ratio & end time. No one can tell anything from that. If you make a V60 at 60g/L then you'll use 250g of water, same as everyone else. It'll end from 2:30 to 4:00 and could be great, OK, or foul at any point in between. If you had a bloom phase then your brew was on the fast side.

You have identified a fault with the adjustment locking mechanism. Get some money knocked off (to cover parts for a fix), or suggest a return. This slipping of setting is not something you have mentioned before. You have mostly mentioned choking espresso shots, if the grind was slipping it would normally slip coarser.

I don't see how a Sette would be any better for making Chemex/V60. My Sette at coarsest setting is finer than I'd like to use for drip.

The grind pictures you have shown are not "medium"

I'm not saying the dust will occur, it does occur, it's an inescapable fact. How much does the Sette make when that and the Pharos are making 95% of their grind under the same size?

Dialling this grinder in & switching from brew method to brew method looks like more hassle than you want to take on, so return the grinder & get your money back (which would be easier if you hadn't disassembled the thing already).


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

MWJB said:


> OK, your V60 method is just a ratio & end time. No one can tell anything from that. If you make a V60 at 60g/L then you'll use 250g of water, same as everyone else. It'll end from 2:30 to 4:00 and could be great, OK, or foul at any point in between. If you had a bloom phase then your brew was on the fast side.


 What parameters are you looking for? The only thing I think I left out it brew temperature and taste?



MWJB said:


> I don't see how a Sette would be any better for making Chemex/V60. My Sette at coarsest setting is finer than I'd like to use for drip.


 The Sette is for espresso, I use the virtuoso for anything pourover

What I am saying is this thing clogs more than my Sette and I guess now isn't designed to do drip so ?



MWJB said:


> You have identified a fault with the adjustment locking mechanism. Get some money knocked off (to cover parts for a fix), or suggest a return. This slipping of setting is not something you have mentioned before. You have mostly mentioned choking espresso shots, if the grind was slipping it would normally slip coarser.


 I assumed this was common knowledge, this is less to do with the damaged adjustment pin and more to do with the design, even on the OE videos the owner has keep the adjustment nut very steady while he tightens it and even when he does slip his adjustments seem to be more forgiving with his grinder hence my pessimism with this grinders espresso capability.



MWJB said:


> Dialling this grinder in & switching from brew method to brew method looks like more hassle than you want to take on, so return the grinder & get your money back (which would be easier if you hadn't disassembled the thing already).


 I'll be keeping it on espresso from now on but the seller is the one that suggested the cleaning and it has a 30 day eBay return so should be fine


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

veganwithabeef said:


> I assumed this was common knowledge, this is less to do with the damaged adjustment pin and more to do with the design, even on the OE videos the owner has keep the adjustment nut very steady while he tightens it and even when he does slip his adjustments seem to be more forgiving with his grinder hence my pessimism with this grinders espresso capability.
> 
> I'll be keeping it on espresso from now on but the seller is the one that suggested the cleaning and it has a 30 day eBay return so should be fine


 The grind setting shouldn't slip. What you're describing is difficulty to adjust not slipping.When it is adjusted and the nut is tightened up it shouldn't slip when in use. You need to keep the crank from turning and you need to stop the body of the grinder from moving while you move the adjustment nut. I have the old adjustment rod with mine and I stick that in it's drilled holes and push the handle up against it then turn the nut to the right position and tighten up, you could probably do the same thing with a chopstick. I think without this method you're supposed to lie the grinder down when adjusting it. I also stuck a little pointer on mine using a tiny neodymium magnet so that if I did mess up and move the handle I'd be able to move it back into position and get the pointer in the same place again. *The position of the adjustment nut is only meaningful when the handle is always in the exact same position when adjusting.*

There's no issue with the espresso capability of the Pharos, it's what it's good at and what it's designed for. If you bought it from the seller I think you did the listing does state returns are not accepted which is standard for ebay. You can return it if it is not as described but that doesn't seem to apply here and there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with it though the seller may well choose to accept a return anyway.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

veganwithabeef said:


> What parameters are you looking for? The only thing I think I left out it brew temperature and taste?
> 
> What I am saying is this thing clogs more than my Sette and I guess now isn't designed to do drip so ?
> 
> ...


 V60 How much/long did you bloom. How much brew water did you add at what time/when did you get the last water in by?

Is the grind setting slipping (the burrs moving farther apart during grinding), or is the setting difficult to set, because the adjustment nut slips whilst tightening?

Good news on the returns situation.

If the Pharos wasn't capable someone would have noticed by now, if you don't think it is capable, why keep it?


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

Rob1 said:


> The grind setting shouldn't slip. What you're describing is difficulty to adjust not slipping.When it is adjusted and the nut is tightened up it shouldn't slip when in use. You need to keep the crank from turning and you need to stop the body of the grinder from moving while you move the adjustment nut. I have the old adjustment rod with mine and I stick that in it's drilled holes and push the handle up against it then turn the nut to the right position and tighten up, you could probably do the same thing with a chopstick. I think without this method you're supposed to lie the grinder down when adjusting it. I also stuck a little pointer on mine using a tiny neodymium magnet so that if I did mess up and move the handle I'd be able to move it back into position and get the pointer in the same place again. *The position of the adjustment nut is only meaningful when the handle is always in the exact same position when adjusting.*


 Yep misspoke, by slippage I meant you can't always leave the Allen key in when adjusting if the adjustment I want is under the handle, so when I'm putting the Allen key back in it slips and I lose my setting.


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

MWJB said:


> V60 How much/long did you bloom. How much brew water did you add at what time/when did you get the last water in by?
> 
> Is the grind setting slipping (the burrs moving farther apart during grinding), or is the setting difficult to set, because the adjustment nut slips whilst tightening?
> 
> ...


 40 second bloom with a 60% pour followed by a second pour, that takes to to around 2:30-245 which is the usual for me but it did taste overextracted but I can't go coarser so I would probably have to mess with the brew time etc.

Yup the sellers agreed to a return which is very nice, I think the Pharos is capable but it doesn't seem to be the jump up from my old espresso grinder as I thought it would be so lesson learned I guess ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

veganwithabeef said:


> 40 second bloom with a 60% pour followed by a second pour, that takes to to around 2:30-245 which is the usual for me but it did taste overextracted but I can't go coarser so I would probably have to mess with the brew time etc.
> 
> Yup the sellers agreed to a return which is very nice, I think the Pharos is capable but it doesn't seem to be the jump up from my old espresso grinder as I thought it would be so lesson learned I guess ?


 I can't make particularly good tasting V60's like that. Unlikely it was over-extracted, I don't doubt it might have been bitter/powdery, but if you wanted to get less extraction, you would add the water faster (but like I said, I don't think you need to do this, certainly not at the coarsest grind you have.)


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

What's your brewing method may I ask as I've tried the 4:6 and this method which both seemed fine but I'm trying to find a method that would enable a finer grind so there's less wasted coffee


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sorry, I don't understand a finer grind equalling less wasted coffee? You can make V60s at a wide range of grinds, at the same ratio.

At work, where I make 3 mugs at once, I use the April method with V60 02: 14g dose , 110g water in within 15sec, at 1:00 add up to 220g again within 15sec. All pours are fast spirals. Grind is finer end of V60, but not anywhere near espresso fine. 2+2 on a Feld v1, 49 on a Niche. Dry bed at 2:30 -3:30. Usually a bright, clean cup.

At home if I was going to brew with 15g I'd be a touch coarser (~13% passing through a Kruve 400, around 2 1/2 turns on the Feld, calibration mark on Niche ), use a V60 01 and pour 33g every 20s, stir the first 33g, pour up to 166g in spirals, each pour lasting about 10sec, then the last 2 pours up to 233g straight down the middle pretty much taking 20s each. Dry bed averaging around 2:50 (+/-15sec depending on the coffee). Water should drop straight down from kettle spout & not make an arc on the way into the brewer. If using a V60 02, pour all straight down the middle after the first pour & stir.

I don't brew with 250g/mug because once you have bloomed with 30g or so, you're left with an odd amount to divide up for the rest of the pours. With 233g you can bloom with 33 and divide 200g by 6/5/3/2. Or, bloom with 23g and divide 210g by 7/6/3/2.

For a very coarse grind I'd use V60 01, 14g coffee and pour 220g total, 20g/20sec in spirals, each pour taking 10sec. This is probably easiest to troubleshoot as if your brew time ends before 3:40 it's likely to are a little too coarse, and if it's much over 4:00 then you're likely a little too fine.

Basically, the finer the grind, the fewer pours, coarser the grind & more pours. I wouldn't mix methods at the same grind. I very rarely change the grind setting for a given method.

I've never had success with a fast, single pour for 1 mug V60.


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## veganwithabeef (Oct 11, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Sorry, I don't understand a finer grind equalling less wasted coffee? You can make V60s at a wide range of grinds, at the same ratio.


 This is just a notion I got from watching a coffee lecture by Matt Perger YouTube. I'm not sure what they did but he suggested that water can only penetrate the coffee grinds by a few tenths of a mm since they're made of cellulose so there is wasted unextracted coffee in the middle if grinding coarser. Might be all bs pseudoscience but it kind of made sense since most of my pours from the first pour if a skip the bloom tastes great but pours after tend to extract lesser good flavours since I'm just rewashing the already extracted outer parts.



MWJB said:


> Water should drop straight down from kettle spout & not make an arc on the way into the brewer.


 This is the kind of stuff that makes me question whether or not we're overthinking things. Must try this out as it sounds ridiculous

Thanks for the detailed explanation I'm subscribed to April but their YouTube channel but their videos titles are labeled well so I wouldn't have come across this method unless I watched every video ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

veganwithabeef said:


> This is the kind of stuff that makes me question whether or not we're overthinking things. Must try this out as it sounds ridiculous
> 
> ?


 Perger's Youtube sifting experiment is mathematically flawed & does not apply to drip brewing anyway.

There's no overthinking, it is my experience of making, measuring & recording several hundred 1 mug drip brews. If you are pouring too aggressively then you will over-agitate the bed, or force too much water into a localised spot. These will lead too excessive bitterness whether you over-extract, or not (over-extraction is not the easiest thing to do with drip, but it is more feasible than with probably any other method, the biggest problem with drip is getting a good extraction without flushing too much silt - which is not counted to extraction but is bittering - through the paper).

Worrying about rewashing the outer parts, or which part of the pour makes for good flavours* is* overthinking things. Concentrate on getting the grind setting to gel with the number of pours and you won't need to worry about these things. Extraction is everything you extract in total, avoid too little (grind finer, or use more pours with a coarse grind), avoid too much (grind coarser, or use less pours with a finer grind), get what you get without introducing non extraction related malfunctions (gentle enough, but not so violent to muddy things up).

Even this makes drip brewing sound more complicated than it really is. It's mostly about sticking to weights & pour timings consistently at the right grind.


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