# So confused....



## AndyJH (Apr 25, 2017)

So I am very new to all this home espresso fun and games! Done a lot of reading over the last few weeks and every time I think I now what I'm doing, I can't seem to make much sense of the results....

Got myself a 1Kg bag of fresh coffee yesterday from Horsham Roasters so now I have a baseline to work with rather than buying from my local super market. Machine is a Sage Duo Temp and grinder is a Sage Smart Pro just for reference and I'm using bottled water.

Working on the recipe of 18g of coffee to achieve an approx. 36g shot for dialling in. This is where my trouble starts, I can't really describe the bitter/sour ratio when making notes for the different grind setting







Perhaps I don't have a very good pallet for this! I can taste the difference but without a baseline example I'm feel like I'm shooting in the dark a little! Anyone else feel like this when starting out?

I have been using time just as a ref point so I can note the difference, results so far;

Grind setting: 8, 56 sec

Grind setting: 10, 46 sec

Grind setting: 12, 33 sec

Grind setting: 14, 27 sec

Setting 8 seems too fine as the initial flow took ages, very thin and black. I'm thinking flow should start around the 10 second mark as the Sage machines have a pre-infuse mode and you can hear the pressure increase after that point. As I increase the grind coarseness obviously the flow increases and the time reduces. So just on time alone somewhere between 10-12 seems about the right ballpark. However this does causes me a little confusion as my initial research into this grinder people said that it didn't go fine enough yet I can't seem to go below 8 before the machine chokes??

Am I on the right track here?

Now this is where my confusion starts to set in. The recipe of 18g in, 36g out or 1:2, isn't that a single shot of espresso using a double shot measure of coffee beans? If so, is this just to dial in the grind? If I want a double shot of 60g do I just run the same grind setting for longer to get 1:3? The Duo Temp has a cut off at 1 min so this will limit the grind setting. Are people using the 1:2 recipe as their final drink? Or is this then being used as a base for milk/water/longer based shots/mixes or all the above? Still finding it all very confusing









I like a longer drink to be honest so I'm looking for either a double espresso, which I think is 60g or an Americano. Should the Americano be based on the 1:2 or 1:3 ratio?

Actually, ideally at this stage I want to produce a good quality Americano that is equivalent to the high street brands as this has been my drink of choice for years. Some are better than others obviously but dare I say it, Costa is my benchmark so to reproduce a drink that I'm happy with would be a great step in the right direction. So I think i'm looking at a ratio of 60g espresso to 180-240g water? Does that sound right?

Bought myself some Oatly Barista yesterday so will have a play with that later and see what a mess I can make, lol


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

18g dose extracted to 36g is a double shot of espresso. Trust me you do not want 60g of espresso in one cup of coffee!

For brewed coffee (no milk) 55 to 60g (ground coffee) per litre of water.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

There's little point in restricting yourself to a short ratio if you're ultimately going to dilute the shot. So, sure try 1:3.

60g of espresso added to 240g of water (300g total) is a pretty weak ratio, even for brewed coffee (1:18.7). Think in terms of the weight of the dose to the final weight of espresso & dilution water combined. So maybe more like 18:180g to 18:240g, concentrate on getting the taste of the shot balanced, before adding the water, at whatever ratio achieves this.

Concentrate on grind setting, the correct weight in the cup & how grind setting affects taste. Shot time can wander for the same shot, so time is a poor parameter.

To be honest, there are much cheaper less faff ways to make 250g of coffee from 18g of beans.


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

A typical Americano would be a 300ml cup filled say 3/4 with hot water and a double espresso, 18g

Works for me anyway


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Which bottled water are you using? "Bottled" doesn't mean anything in terms of characteristics, it just identifies the container the water comes in 

Volvic is a common 'one bottle' choice, or try a mix of 1 part Highland Spring to 4 parts Waitrose Essential Stretton Hills (not Princes Gate).


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Sounds like between 10-12 on your grinder for this bean is the right setting. The setting will change with different beans depending on roast level.

When where your current beans roasted? They may be too fresh. For me I think beans need at least 10 days post roast before they are ready.


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## Beth71 (Jan 4, 2017)

AndyJH said:


> As I increase the grind coarseness obviously the flow increases and the time reduces. So just on time alone somewhere between 10-12 seems about the right ballpark. However this does causes me a little confusion as my initial research into this grinder people said that it didn't go fine enough yet I can't seem to go below 8 before the machine chokes??


I have a Sage grinder, too, and the grind settings I use for espresso tend to be in a similar region to yours, so you're not alone


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## AndyJH (Apr 25, 2017)

Nopapercup said:


> Sounds like between 10-12 on your grinder for this bean is the right setting. The setting will change with different beans depending on roast level.
> 
> When where your current beans roasted? They may be too fresh. For me I think beans need at least 10 days post roast before they are ready.


Beans were roasted on 3rd May so you could be right about the freshness.


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## AndyJH (Apr 25, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Which bottled water are you using? "Bottled" doesn't mean anything in terms of characteristics, it just identifies the container the water comes in
> 
> Volvic is a common 'one bottle' choice, or try a mix of 1 part Highland Spring to 4 parts Waitrose Essential Stretton Hills (not Princes Gate).


Ok, I was merely using bottled water in n effort to protect the machine and hadn't really considered the effect on taste. So far I have been using Waitrose Essential Spring (Princes Gate) but sounds like I need to reconsider.


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## AndyJH (Apr 25, 2017)

MWJB said:


> There's little point in restricting yourself to a short ratio if you're ultimately going to dilute the shot. So, sure try 1:3.
> 
> 60g of espresso added to 240g of water (300g total) is a pretty weak ratio, even for brewed coffee (1:18.7). Think in terms of the weight of the dose to the final weight of espresso & dilution water combined. So maybe more like 18:180g to 18:240g, concentrate on getting the taste of the shot balanced, before adding the water, at whatever ratio achieves this.
> 
> ...


Thanks and makes sense to concentrate on the shot balance, I need to persist with this. I'm happy with drinking an espresso straight but I also like to site down a enjoy a longer drink at times to which most people I assume use milk to achieve. Due to not getting on with milk my only option is water and I have experienced some nice americanos where the strength and flavour of the espresso remains so this is one outcome I would like.

Need to get better at understanding and diagnosing the effects of the grind ratio flavour wise, will order more espresso's when I'm out and about to see if that provides a benchmark.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

AndyJH said:


> Ok, I was merely using bottled water in n effort to protect the machine and hadn't really considered the effect on taste. So far I have been using Waitrose Essential Spring (Princes Gate) but sounds like I need to reconsider.


The Princes Gate WE is of typical UK hardness & bicarbonate, it doesn't offer any more protection than a lot of UK tap water. The smaller WE bottles are softer, but low on bicarbonate (hence adding a little Highland Spring lifts this a little, more for taste though than machine protection).


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## AndyJH (Apr 25, 2017)

Really hadn't appreciated this at all so thanks for this. Will look at buying differently on my next shop.


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