# Cherub warm up time



## jamster

I've been getting decidedly varied shots out of my cherub. Sometimes it makes exceptional coffee (a "hit"; sometimes it is very sour (a "miss").

I've tried all the usual variables, but I think it is possibly temperature / temperature stability that is causing the inconsistency.

I usually give the machine about 15 minutes to warm up. I've noticed that if I leave it on all day, I get better "hit" rates / fewer "misses".

How long do people recommend allowing the machine to warm up? Any little tricks I could use to increase my "hit" rate?


----------



## bronc

30-45 minutes is the norm for E61 style machines. If you're in a hurry you can flush water through the grouphead to warm it up faster. Sounds like low temperature is the issue.


----------



## jamster

Thanks bronc. Now I wonder how to give it time to warm up without having to get out of bed


----------



## hotmetal

jamster said:


> Thanks bronc. Now I wonder how to give it time to warm up without having to get out of bed


Easy - get a timer plug! I have my machine on one - set to 15 mins before my alarm goes off. By the time I get round to making coffee it's been on 40 mins. 15 mins is not long enough as Bronc says. You might get away with 30 if you wrap a towel round the group and flush a bit through the group to warm up the cups, but 40 is better. Also have the portafilter locked in so that warms up too.

You can get really creative with a Wemo Internet enabled switch and IFTTT rules, including geofencing so it turns on when you're 15 mins from home etc, but I found that a bit unreliable so I went back to a cheap mechanical timer from Robert Dyas. Simples!

One of the forum members Marcuswar has developed some sort of tasker app that lets you control Wemo etc for this purpose too.


----------



## bronc

I'm using an Orvibo S20. It's a cheaper alternative to the WeMo and there is no access to the API (so no IFTTT and other nice little things) but it has a programmable timer and you can switch it on/off with your smartphone wherever you are. It does the job and I'm happy with it.


----------



## ChilledMatt

bronc said:


> I'm using an Orvibo S20. It's a cheaper alternative to the WeMo and there is no access to the API (so no IFTTT and other nice little things) but it has a programmable timer and you can switch it on/off with your smartphone wherever you are. It does the job and I'm happy with it.


Beware of the power rating of your machine as I believe these are only 10amp.


----------



## bronc

Good point. I didn't know the Cherub has a 13amp/2.85kW element.


----------



## Jon

My cherub/heavenly was always on 30 mins plus before I attempted coffee - and from looking at the erics on my Rocket it seems that 15/20 mins isn't enough.


----------



## JayMac

Hi Jamster, for what it's worth I struggled with that same problem on my Ariete, basically the same machine, for the first two months of owning it. Now it's been several months of not a single sour shot. The solution for me wasn't all one thing, but a combination of 30m min warmup, three short flushes before the first shot, VST basket, general technique improvement and never overfilling the basket. (Ideal for me is about 14.5g in a 15g VST whereas before that I sometime had a lack of headroom leading to channeling). Good luck!


----------



## ChilledMatt

I also have an Ariete and if I warm up for less than 30 minutes I am guaranteed a sour shot.


----------



## Mister_Tad

I can confirm a Wemo Insight works with an Ariete/Cherub without melting, exploding or burning down your house. I always give it around 40 minutes to warm up before the first shot and leave it on all day.

I've read a couple of reports with regards to the non-insight Wemo switch ending up dead under max load (I've seen mine at 3150w, so when I say max, I mean it!), so worth a consideration. The insight model also gives you the peace of mind to know that even leaving it on all day most days of the week, it's still only costing you £2-3/month


----------



## Xpenno

Yeah, e61 are 30-40 mins depending on room temp. You can speed it up by laying a cloth over the group and also flushing a few times once the brew boiler is up to temp.


----------



## jamster

A rather belated thanks to everyone on this thread. I managed to strike it lucky with the recent Sage DB discount and so that has solved my warm up time problem. The Cherub has found a wonderful new home thanks to these very forums. I had it up and running yesterday to demo it before it went to its new home, and it was running all day and made some lovely shots. Warm up time is key, it seems.


----------



## UncleJake

"it does look nice there" as the missus arrives downstairs this morning.

Thanks @jamster - it's a lovely machine, you've looked after it incredibly well, and thank you for all the effort you went to to make sure I was happy, never mind the all the included accessory bonuses.

I allowed 45 minutes warm up before my first shot this morning - and it matched the best I was getting from my old machine.

Happy the man.

I've got a wemo - so will get it set for the morning - one quick question: I'm used to using fresh water daily - but does the boiler autofill every time it turns on? So I shouldn't leave it low on water as I turn off at the end of the day?


----------



## jamster

Thanks @UncleJake - I'm pleased it has found such a great new home. It was a pleasure meeting you.

Yes it autofills when it comes on so best to keep it topped up. It does beep (quite quietly) if it has run out of water. I'd hope that this means it wouldn't switch the boiler on empty but might be worth checking with Fracino!

Cheers!


----------



## ChilledMatt

My Ariete (effectively the same machine) will not switch on the element until the boiler is full.


----------



## UncleJake

Yes indeed @ChilledMatt - this is Francino's reply:

You will need water in your tank if you're going to run on a timer otherwise it will time out when trying to fill and won't heat. The boiler is sterile so the water being a day old is not going to have any detrimental effect on the machine or the taste of your coffee.


----------



## gwapenut

Mister_Tad said:


> I can confirm a Wemo Insight works with an Ariete/Cherub without melting, exploding or burning down your house. I always give it around 40 minutes to warm up before the first shot and leave it on all day.
> 
> I've read a couple of reports with regards to the non-insight Wemo switch ending up dead under max load (I've seen mine at 3150w, so when I say max, I mean it!), so worth a consideration. The insight model also gives you the peace of mind to know that even leaving it on all day most days of the week, it's still only costing you £2-3/month


I have been running a non-insight wemo for a couple of years with no problem at all.

Do you have average kwh figures for yours, this interests me as I tend to turn mine off occasinally during the day, but may not bother for a tiny saving.

eg what hours do you have yours on for, do you know the average kwh for the warmed-up hours, and the higher average for the first hour when warming up?


----------



## Wombat

My tank safety seems to have died, so I can't trust a timer switch. Had to bleed it a few months ago and was not a fun procedure!

Aren't you supposed to start these with the stream valve open?


----------



## Axl/75

hotmetal said:


> Easy - get a timer plug! I have my machine on one - set to 15 mins before my alarm goes off. By the time I get round to making coffee it's been on 40 mins. 15 mins is not long enough as Bronc says. You might get away with 30 if you wrap a towel round the group and flush a bit through the group to warm up the cups, but 40 is better. Also have the portafilter locked in so that warms up too.
> 
> You can get really creative with a Wemo Internet enabled switch and IFTTT rules, including geofencing so it turns on when you're 15 mins from home etc, but I found that a bit unreliable so I went back to a cheap mechanical timer from Robert Dyas. Simples!
> 
> One of the forum members Marcuswar has developed some sort of tasker app that lets you control Wemo etc for this purpose too.


 Your meant to start machine up with steam arm on till steam comes out the wand to prevent air locks so timer plug is a no no


----------



## hotmetal

Axl/75 said:


> Your meant to start machine up with steam arm on till steam comes out the wand to prevent air locks so timer plug is a no no


I'm not saying you're wrong but I've never heard this and I've been on here since about 2013. The advice has always been to use a timer plug. If you turn the machine on with the steam tap open, surely you're going to get water everywhere and the service boiler will never pressurise? You may be referring to a specific machine, I only have experience of a Classic and my R58. I realise this is the Fracino forum and I've never used one, so maybe it says that in the handbook? I have never had an airlock and I never leave the steam tap open. Well, I may have once by accident but it wasn't something I'd do again. I'd be interested to know why you suggest leaving it open, or where you read that. Seems highly unlikely if you don't mind me saying. Of course, if you have experience in coffee machine engineering, or it says it in Fracino instructions then I will defer to your greater knowledge...

___

Eat, drink and be merry


----------



## Norvin

hotmetal said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong but I've never heard this and I've been on here since about 2013. The advice has always been to use a timer plug. If you turn the machine on with the steam tap open, surely you're going to get water everywhere and the service boiler will never pressurise? You may be referring to a specific machine, I only have experience of a Classic and my R58. I have never had an airlock and I never leave the steam tap open. Well, I may have once by accident but it wasn't something I'd do again. I'd be interested to know why you suggest leaving it open, or where you read that. Seems highly unlikely if you don't mind me saying. Of course, if you have a degree in coffee machine engineering then I will defer to your greater knowledge...
> 
> ___
> Eat, drink and be merry


 I was going to reply along the same lines. Surely the air vents out of the anti-vac valve until the water boils and steam pressure shuts the valve. Where would the air lock occur?


----------



## Axl/75

Its in the manual for the classico !! And i was advised by the company i bought it from to do this . You only leave it open till a little steam comes out which is about 5 minutes of turning the machine on


----------



## NewboyUK

I second this. Pretty sure it states in all Fracino manuals to do so.


----------



## Rob1

Maybe the fracinos lack and anti-vacuum valve.


----------



## NewboyUK

Nope. Its ontop of the sight glass on most. Some direct on boiler.

Perhaps they might see it as good practice?


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

They do have anti vac valves. I think opening the steam valve was considered best practice in case of a sticky anti vac. You can use it on a timer. If the anti vac were sticky the worst case is just some false pressure. Not the end of the world.


----------



## Drellis

I've ad my Cherub for a few years now and never have left the steam wand open. I just open up the steam wand for a few seconds before brewing any coffee/steaming any milk and never had issues. I feel like this is an over cautious recommendation from Fracino, perhaps because they have so many returns/repairs for milk getting sucked into the boiler from negative pressure build up.

On machine heat up time, at least 30 mins. Quicker if you run the group after 15 mins or so. Temperature is impressively stable after this with reasonable recovery time between shots.


----------

