# E61 Flow paddle control on Vesuvius?



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

What do you think of this combination in this way you will have electronic(pressure) and manual(flow) control during the shot, and pressure lower than 2 bar for preinfusion?


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

It is funny as a few days ago I was thinking the same thing, but put myself off the idea for several reasons.

I would be voiding my two year warranty with ACS, which for machines older than that is not an issue.

Meddling with an already excellent machine might not deliver any improvement in the cup. If the law of diminishing returns could be applied for coffee taste, I can see this as a potential example.

I know that ACS slightly modified the E61 to make sure they can deliver everything via the pump, i.e. a simple paddle kit might not be everything you would need to run it.

I personally cannot justify the exercise just driven by curiosity at this stage, most likely not in a distant future either.

Good luck if you decided to go for it!

EDIT: I would assume some owners of Rocket R91 can comment as their machine sports both options.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

I have 2 E61 Machines and if the results on my Vesuvius is not as I expect it, could possibly mount it on ECM. I am thinking of Lelit Bianca flow control kit.

Warranty of all machines bought directly from Paolo is limited to parts only that is good in this case.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Not sure how the warranty would be voided. Changing the group gaskets, using another sower screen and baskets, or putting a new mushroom or cap on the group shouldn't be affecting the warranty, nor should changing the gicleur really. If those things do void the warranty I wonder what else would. Descaling probably wouldn't be allowed?


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

I agree that the usual "do not touch to prevent voiding the warranty" might not be applicable to coffee machines to the same extent. I do not have experience and I hope for problem free use.

Back to the OP point, I find interesting the observation that the Vesuvius is not delivering as expected.

Would you mind elaborating a bit, what exactly is not up to scratch?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

John Yossarian said:


> I agree that the usual "do not touch to prevent voiding the warranty" might not be applicable to coffee machines to the same extent. I do not have experience and I hope for problem free use.
> 
> Back to the OP point, I find interesting the observation that the Vesuvius is not delivering as expected.
> 
> Would you mind elaborating a bit, what exactly is not up to scratch?


 He means if after fitting the valve it didn't make any different/better results, he could fit the valve onto his other machine.

I'm on the fence as to the value of fitting the valve to the V...well more on the side of the fence that says it's not worth the expense.


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## tohenk2 (Oct 11, 2017)

There are a few options, ECM, La Pavoni and Lelit make kits. I was wondering as well, started with someone asking what the flow was with the lowest possible pressure setting.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> He means if after fitting the valve it didn't make any different/better results, he could fit the valve onto his other machine.
> 
> I'm on the fence as to the value of fitting the valve to the V...well more on the side of the fence that says it's not worth the expense.


 I have missed "if" in his post. Now it is clear.


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## tohenk2 (Oct 11, 2017)

I now have fitted one on my Vesuvius. Sitting at home ... 🤐

It does seem to be able to decrease the volume of water per second.

Based on the "Whole Latte Love"videos I expected it to be able to cut down the flow completely. The one I fitted can not do that, not even at boilerpressure only.

Don't know if it would make a difference at all, but ... I would like to know if it should be able to shut off. I contacted ECM via their website/e-mail, but got no response yet. I'll try again next week.


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## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

tohenk2 said:


> I now have fitted one on my Vesuvius. Sitting at home ... 🤐
> 
> It does seem to be able to decrease the volume of water per second.
> 
> ...


 Take a look at this it shows issue if sleeve is too low


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## tohenk2 (Oct 11, 2017)

> 11 hours ago, Border_all said:
> 
> Take a look at this it shows issue if sleeve is too low


 Thanks! I Didn't see that video before - and it helped. I can now shut the flow completely!


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## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Would love to hear how this mod. works with the Vesuvius.

Did you fit the one designed for Profitec?


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## tohenk2 (Oct 11, 2017)

I fitted the one from ECM.

The kit contains a stainless steel mushroom and valve system that I used.

I did not use the spring and pressuregauge. The lower spring on the V seemed to do just fine as is. I could be mistaken off course. @DavecUK - Am I?

And I already had a pressure gauge in place (from Orman, the one in the kit is branded ECM but I think it also is made by Orman.)

I think the V measures flow and uses a table to display a corresponding pressure. So if you fiddle around with flow during brewing it might be that the V just has a hard time to stay at the pressure/flow preset in the profile?

So far it's fun to experiment a bit. Now I can set the flow as low as I want for the preinfusion stage. Basically I use it as an adjustable gicleur/group jet/espresso nozzle. I can see the results on the pressure gauge and it seems to me that the ramp-up can be influenced by it. (I thought you als can do that in the software, so apart from the preinfusion flow reduction this might be completely superfluous)


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

tohenk2 said:


> I fitted the one from ECM.
> 
> 1. The kit contains a stainless steel mushroom and valve system that I used.
> 
> ...


 1. Good

2. Good because you would feck things up if you used their spring. The cam is cut for no spring...you would also slightly negatively affect temperature stability and puck venting. It's why I specifically didn't disable the preinfusion chamber in the way other manufacturers have done (copied) since I first did it 5 years ago!.

3. Orman are the largest manufacturer of these gauges in Italy and make them (brand them as well) for most espresso machine companies

4. V measures pressure and doesn't use a look up table. It uses a 3rd independent PID loop to control pump pressure in a stable way. It's why it uses a commercial 3 group board.

5. Software doesn't control flow, so the valve should be used in 3 ways. As a low, medium high flow pressure profiled shot system e.g, you can run the same profiles but with different gicleur sizes in effect. The second way is the manual enablement of either a Bloom phase, pausing flow completely for a period of time, or a "slayer style" slow trickle. The last 2 are both something the V can't currently do.

P.S. I wish you had chosen the Lelit valve though....


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> 1. Good
> 
> 2. Good because you would feck things up if you used their spring. The cam is cut for no spring...you would also slightly negatively affect temperature stability and puck venting. It's why I specifically didn't disable the preinfusion chamber in the way other manufacturers have done (copied) since I first did it 5 years ago!.
> 
> ...


 Thanks Dave,

This is very educational, although I do not see myself fitting the paddle anytime soon.

What happened with the Heisenberg's Avatar? I like it very much 🙂


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

John Yossarian said:


> This is very educational, although I do not see myself fitting the paddle anytime soon.
> 
> What happened with the Heisenberg's Avatar? I like it very much 🙂


 It was the uncertainty principle at work (not Heisenbergs), and I was so uncertain about it, I changed it.


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## tohenk2 (Oct 11, 2017)

Thanks Dave!

The reasons I went with this one are simple: I liked the stainles steel mushroom and it was available.

I still might get a Lelit one - and I'm curious why you wish I had chosen differently?


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

tohenk2 said:


> Thanks Dave!
> 
> The reasons I went with this one are simple: I liked the stainles steel mushroom and it was available.
> 
> I still might get a Lelit one - and I'm curious why you wish I had chosen differently?


 Hello Henk,

if you do not mind my asking how much did the paddle pack from ECM set you back? And how much is the Lelit one, if you know?

If you do not wish to share it here, please PM.


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## tohenk2 (Oct 11, 2017)

John Yossarian said:


> Hello Henk,
> 
> if you do not mind my asking how much did the paddle pack from ECM set you back? And how much is the Lelit one, if you know?
> 
> If you do not wish to share it here, please PM.


 The ECM set cost me €216,- (shop)

I wanted the Lelit unit when it was introduced in Amsterdam (World Of Coffee). I could not order it. I was told it would NEVER be available for something other than repairs. (And that serialnr's would be checked to find any problems with QC etc. It was not only that they just started production and wanted to sell machines and not parts. They realy really did not want it on other machines.)

Since then Profitec and ECM have introduced a kit (Profitec with a black faceplate on the pressuregauge and the text Pompa, ECM with a white faceplate and the text Pompa/ECM). The first version had a problem with the handle - it was to long for some machines to fully rotate. The second version has a much smaller round knob. If I could find a fitting bushing I think I would make something with wood (oak).

So after a while I stopped looking for the Lelit version. Until Dave said it today I didn't think it was sold seperatly. Seems Lelit has changed its mind. I found it online now...

And La Pavoni also has a "BPPC" kit - but I can't find anyone that sells it (BPlusCafe had it on Instagram). I think that one is more like the Lelit kit.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

tohenk2 said:


> Thanks Dave!
> 
> The reasons I went with this one are simple: I liked the stainles steel mushroom and it was available.
> 
> I still might get a Lelit one - and I'm curious why you wish I had chosen differently?


 When you want to lubricate/replace the 2 little o rings on the spindle that controls the valve and prevents leaking under pressure (or at other times), pm me and let me know how you get on.


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

tohenk2 said:


> Thanks Dave!
> 
> The reasons I went with this one are simple: I liked the stainles steel mushroom and it was available.
> 
> I still might get a Lelit one - and I'm curious why you wish I had chosen differently?


 Just wondered how the story ends?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> Just wondered how the story ends?


 I was nearing the end of my tether back then....so didn't bother explaining again fully....how it ends is below:

Usually with the flow control device so tightly together than it cannot easily be undone. The O rings never lubricated and the thing removed because it's either leaking or has some other problem like jamming because the O rings have disintegrated and got in the valve. The Lelit version, which I really like, allows you to simply unscrew the valve pin assembly after removing it from the group (it doesn't weld together) and is easy to lube.

When putting the other type back together, a wrap of PTFE tape between the mushroom threaded stem and the top of the valve should be used to aid removal. As I said in another thread...the o rings in these need to be lubed every 3 to 6 months.

In my review of the Lelit system in July 2019 https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2019/07/29/lelit-needle-valve-kit/

I mention maintenance within the first 45s of the Video, because I was aware that everyone just seemed to assumed it was all maintenance free.

P.S. Never move the lever when it's cold...bit like don't eat yellow snow.


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Thanks @davecuk @tohenk2 Did you try flow on the Vesuvius? Any verdict?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> Thanks @davecuk @tohenk2 Did you try flow on the Vesuvius? Any verdict?


 I never got around to it....other projects got in the way and I have not used my Vesuvius since August 2019!!


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

You should dig it out again! Side by side with the Evo same as @paulo


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> You should dig it out again! Side by side with the Evo same as @paulo


 My wrist is so bad at the moment, I can't do very much with my right hand.


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Sorry to hear that.. take it easy!


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## tohenk2 (Oct 11, 2017)

I did try it. Dave is right (Duh) but I went to the seller and had him disasemble the thing. That was unsurprisingly difficult. Once loose it was fine, and stayed serviceable. I guess they overtighten everything in the factory or I just got lucky.

In use it can be fun (as I have the analog pressuremeter on the E61 grouphead) but mostly I just use it to limit the initial flow a bit (and lengthen the pre-brew/pre-infusion) and don't touch it any further so the programmed profile does its job.


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## tohenk2 (Oct 11, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> My wrist is so bad at the moment, I can't do very much with my right hand.


 Sorry to hear that. I hope everything is a little bit better now.

 The well ment rant: I know from expierence that in the case of a mouse-arm (RSI) if you acted just in time (or rather - not so late that the wrist is beyond all help) that given enough rest and once you can get it moving a little bit a powerball can get it a lot better. (I thought it bs, but it worked for me.) There are also workouts for the fingers (piano, guitar) and massage techniques for the hand and wrist that you can do yourself. Off course in any other case (arthritis etc.) it might not work at all.


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