# HELP! Our first machine and learning to service it



## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

Hi all, we're new here and new to commercial machines. I picked up a machine yesterday. I was assured by the seller that it was in good order but had developed a minor fault. He put it in storage for a few months and I cam along to buy it. He couldn't specify what kind of fault but just that the machine would start its warm up/power up cycle then halt with all buttons lighting up and flashing to signal a fault. He assumed there was a blockage in a pipe somewhere. I went ahead and took a look at it myself. It seemed legitimate but the guy refused to let me hook it up to water as he told me it would be very disruptive to his day. I tested it with the filling valve tured off and it acted as he described. So I saw no reason to treatit as anything other than genuine.

It's a Rancillio Classe 6 double group, Model E.

I got home and connected the machine, following all the procedures in the manual. I even went through a diagnostic cycle before I connected water which seemed to be fine. I'm no stranger to electronics and have dabbled in mechanics too so I felt comfortable with everything. Water supply from my pipework was secure and no dripping so I was ready to power up the machine and fill the boiler.

Switched on, pump noises, lights cycling and then the thing nearly exploded. There was water everywhere. Every part of the boiler started dripping. Every valve, every pipe, every connection. I shut off the water quickly, got to the power and switched that off and as i turned around there was a loud hissing noise and the valve on the top started spraying water everywhere. The large nut in the center was spraying too. I was up until nearly 1am cleaning up the mess and drying off what I could of the internal components with towels and a hair dryer. I've left it overnight with a storage heater under the counter to aid in drying.

I can handle the basics of unscrewing all the couplings, cleaning and resealing with PTFE (unless there's something else I should be using here?) but I need help identifying what the parts are and what they do so I can understand them and replace them. I'm a stranger to coffee machines so I'm going to declare novice status here. Treat me as a newbie.

I feel this is faulty, the valve part in pic 1 that was spraying everywhere with great prejudice. I think I'll also need to take a look at what I think is the water level sensor (pic 2) as if the boiler was allowing the valve from pic1 to spray water, it was in my mind, over filling.

Can someone help me get this machine going, I'd really hate for my first commercial machine to be a waste of my savings and as good as scrap, which is how it feels right now

Thank you in advance


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

.....


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

I've tried to insert images from my album on ImgBB but this forum doesn't seem to allow it!!

How do I add the images here?

For now here are the links;

Pic 1 - Valve that sprayed water everywhere. Safety valve?

https://ibb.co/vYdLqcZ

Pic 2 - what I believe is the Water level sensor

https://ibb.co/fHdCXnT

Pic 3 - Some kind of control for the group heads? The one that's connected to GH1 didn't sound the same as the one connected to GH2, also 1's Led didn't light up on this whereas 2's did

https://ibb.co/JcsQcVC

Pic 4 - overview of the boiler, you can see how wet everything is.

https://ibb.co/vPyfMVz

Pic 5 - again, you can see how wet everything is

https://ibb.co/G7Grpcc


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

> Switched on, pump noises, lights cycling and then the thing nearly exploded. There was water everywhere. Every part of the boiler started dripping. Every valve, every pipe, every connection. I shut off the water quickly, got to the power and switched that off and as i turned around there was a loud hissing noise and the valve on the top started spraying water everywhere. The large nut in the center was spraying too. I was up until nearly 1am cleaning up the mess and drying off what I could of the internal components with towels and a hair dryer. I've left it overnight with a storage heater under the counter to aid in drying.


 Precision required, lots of text, important information missing e.g. Did this happen instantly or within a few seconds of putting the pump on, or after a few minutes...difference being whether the boiler was empty or full when you looked at it. Implication, was the flashing panel lights because of low water or an additional fault.



How much did you pay for this machine


How old is it., photo of the rating plate would help (it could be much older than you think


where did you buy it, can you get your money back e.g. ebay as not as described....or did you do a quickie cash deal off of ebay


These questions really give some context. Without answers to them I can only guess at what happened and looking at the few photos you have, I would say:

The seller knew exactly what he was doing, didn't let you connect it up because he knew what would happen. May not have even been the owner of the machine but picked it up cheap to sell on...possibly tried it and though wow, lets get rid of this cheap.

based on what you said happened (leaking from everywhere) The machine looks as if it's been used and abused and rarely serviced...basically had the life sucked out of it in the commercial environment. To bring this one back to life and use again in the commercial environment...requires disassembly (pretty much down to part level), cleaning, descaling, testing, a number of probably expensive components, a huge fingers crossed that the electronics are OK. It also requires the skill set to do this (e.g. PTFE is not the right thing to use on a compression joint). You either need deep pockets or the ability to test things properly to see if the part (gicar thing) is likely broke, or it's not getting voltage. Even once you have done all this....you may find pinhole leaks in the boiler.

Are you intending to use this machine in a commercial venture?


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

Hi Dave! Thank you so much for your response, ill try my best to get all this info on screen for you. To answer a few, yes I'm starting up a commercial venture with my Dad. Recently we found out he's not so well and this is something we want to do together whilst we have time. 0 funding as of yet. We don't intend to start trading until nearer the end of the pandemic situation, so I have time. However, I don't have deep pockets. I have Barista experience and have worked for multiple high street coffee chains. I've run and managed my own company before in another field but coffee and food are my passions/

Right now, i have no real finances available. Ill be paying out of my own pocket for everything as it stands, so i really hope this machine isn't a Dud. I was assured it would be fine after a good clean and descale as it came from a working commercial café just a few months before.....but maybe that's all lies 



DavecUK said:


> Precision required, lots of text, important information missing e.g. Did this happen instantly or within a few seconds of putting the pump on, or after a few minutes...difference being whether the boiler was empty or full when you looked at it. Implication, was the flashing panel lights because of low water or an additional fault.


 Within maybe 10 seconds of starting to fill, it started to drip from most of the fittings, i turned off the water supply. I unplugged the power and within a couple of seconds all hell broke loose 😑



> How much did you pay for this machine


 Not a great deal compared to a new one but enough to empty my savings account



> How old is it., photo of the rating plate would help (it could be much older than you think


 Ive no idea on the age to be fair, its not modern. Pic is linked here. Sorry for the bad quality. The lighting is terrible in my workshop and my flash just did not help

https://ibb.co/Bc3Vtwb



> where did you buy it, can you get your money back e.g. ebay as not as described....or did you do a quickie cash deal off of ebay


 eBay but I went to take a look first. I was convinced by the seller it was working fine when it was uninstalled from the café and that since trying to sell it he realised it wasn't starting up and he didn't have time to strip and clean it himself.

I payed via PayPal and have already filed a claim with my bank and PayPal for the payment. I know they've held the money as I've had a lot of unhappy messages from him. I will respond to him when i know more about the predicament. If i can see a fix that will get this running, then ill cancel the case.



> These questions really give some context. Without answers to them I can only guess at what happened and looking at the few photos you have, I would say:
> 
> The seller knew exactly what he was doing, didn't let you connect it up because he knew what would happen. May not have even been the owner of the machine but picked it up cheap to sell on...possibly tried it and though wow, lets get rid of this cheap.


 Maybe...... i hope not



> based on what you said happened (leaking from everywhere) The machine looks as if it's been used and abused and rarely serviced...basically had the life sucked out of it in the commercial environment. To bring this one back to life and use again in the commercial environment...requires disassembly (pretty much down to part level), cleaning, descaling, testing, a number of probably expensive components,


 Oh lord 

I have no issue doing a strip down and cleaning all the components. More time than id like to lend to it but needs must. I'm confident in my ability to disassemble and reassemble it. Ill first need to learn what the parts do individually and how they interact as part of the whole though



> a huge fingers crossed that the electronics are OK.


 Taking a look this morning, the unit is now dry. Ill happily fire it up if i can confirm that doing so without a water feed wont damage it further. The seller said it was fine to do so but id rather confirm that with you guys.

From my looking last night. The diagnostics card on the left hand side cycled through fine then when the lights on the front control panel started to flash, showed a number 6: Link below

https://ibb.co/QCBpYwX



> It also requires the skill set to do this (e.g. PTFE is not the right thing to use on a compression joint).


 It looks as though everything in there has PTFE around it. every fitting seems to have it. I removed the valves from the top, they had PTFE on the threads. There are some compression fittings and the threads also have PTFE on them. It doesn't look all that old either



> You either need deep pockets or the ability to test things properly to see if the part (gicar thing) is likely broke, or it's not getting voltage. Even once you have done all this....you may find pinhole leaks in the boiler.


 I can certainly try to test things properly. I have enough know how and the kit to do some electrical diagnostics and all of the kit necessary to fully strip down the unit.

The Gicar is the thing attached to the group head right? If so i can look into the voltage readings once i know the machine is safe to turn on/



> Are you intending to use this machine in a commercial venture?


 As Abvove


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

Ive noticed something else, might just be me but one of the pipes attached to the top of the boiler is of a different diameter to the others. It looks almost to be a brake line from a car (they seem to use the same flare fittings. This also leaked, so im wondering if someone has replaced this with a non standard part??

Its the second from the right in this image https://ibb.co/vPyfMVz


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

You have not told us what you paid?

I'm just going to say get your money back this machine is trouble, old and not what you want.


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> You have not told us what you paid?
> 
> I'm just going to say get your money back this machine is trouble, old and not what you want.


 Thanks for the honesty. I feel like I've been ripped off but I want to try and do something with it whilst I still have it. Im going to continue down the route of refunds ect

Could you give me some more insight into where to start resealing all the bits on the boiler? and what that valve is?

Thanks


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Once I had an issue with my old machine, the RCD kept tripping. Dave told me that it must had been the heating element. I did not listen and in the process I killed the rotary pump. The element was the culprit, I bought one but had to replace the pump as well.

I have read everything you shared and I totally agree with Dave's verdict. I could imagine that the challenge to solve it is tempting but there are plenty of newer machines in far better conditions.

In the end it will e your decision. Good luck whatever you decide to do.


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

John Yossarian said:


> Once I had an issue with my old machine, the RCD kept tripping. Dave told me that it must had been the heating element. I did not listen and in the process I killed the rotary pump. The element was the culprit, I bought one but had to replace the pump as well.
> 
> I have read everything you shared and I totally agree with Dave's verdict. I could imagine that the challenge to solve it is tempting but there are plenty of newer machines in far better conditions.
> 
> In the end it will e your decision. Good luck whatever you decide to do.


 Thanks John, I appreciate the honest reply. I'm certainly taking everything on board and listening to everything being said by Dave. I understand his position and your own, please understand mine.

Id rather attempt to repair what I can initially see is wrong, so far its a lot of leaks, then find out if anything else is necessary with this machine than scrap it now. I've only just paid and brought it back and I don't want to write it off at the start of the journey. However, if I can strip it down, give it a clean, replace the valve if it is faulty and seal all the screw threads and i still run into trouble elsewhere and it looks to be too much then I will consider retiring it to the nearest tip.

I'm here seeking a way to not kill my dads dream before it gets started and I feel bad that I've picked this machine and its useless in its current state. I want to make it right if I can.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Just to concur fully with what Dave has said. That machine has been completely neglected for many years and has only been " BODGED" when needing repairs. If the boiler is heavily scaled+ the element, de-scaling could find pin holes in both necessitating new boiler and element NOT CHEAP.

As a commercial project you would need to have the boiler pressure tested BEFORE use= more expense.

The seller either new about the problems or was aware of them.

Do you have the facilities/ tools abilities to remove broken / seized bolts. You can easily cook / fry electronic components using a test meter.

I can appreciate your wish to go into this venture with your father but it could turn out badly if you continue with this machine

Do as Dave said , Get a refund.


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## Mark70 (Jan 12, 2020)

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE listen to @DavecUK Get a refund and look elsewhere.

Im no expert but some companies will rent you a new commercial machine or look at Start Up Loans


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

El carajillo said:


> Just to concur fully with what Dave has said. That machine has been completely neglected for many years and has only been " BODGED" when needing repairs. If the boiler is heavily scaled+ the element, de-scaling could find pin holes in both necessitating new boiler and element NOT CHEAP.


 I see, that would obviously be very problematic



> As a commercial project you would need to have the boiler pressure tested BEFORE use= more expense.


 I have been recommended a guy that services machines for commercial use. his fee is £250 and we are obviously needing this before we opened. No point in doing so now if I cant operate the machine but it was already in the pipeline for later.



> The seller either new about the problems or was aware of them.


 I'm pretty sure your right here



> Do you have the facilities/ tools abilities to remove broken / seized bolts. You can easily cook / fry electronic components using a test meter.


 Yes i do. I have a full workshop. I was a Mechanics apprentice for a number of years and still work on the odd car here and there. Ive spent most of my adult life around engineering in one form or another



> I can appreciate your wish to go into this venture with your father but it could turn out badly if you continue with this machine
> 
> Do as Dave said , Get a refund.


 indeed I am trying however I don't think ill get anywhere and its very unlikely the seller will want to come and collect the machine. We travelled a fair distance to collect it and I'm certainly not going to do the drive to take it back unless he compensates for the return fuel, which is also doubtful so i may end up being stuck with it


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

Mark70 said:


> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE listen to @DavecUK Get a refund and look elsewhere.
> 
> Im no expert but some companies will rent you a new commercial machine or look at Start Up Loans


 Hi Mark, thanks for the input. Again, id like to at least try the basics and see where i can go from there, even if it is to the local tip. Id rather say i tried my best than give up. Even if the machine is only useful for practicing on and we end up getting a rental

I've looked at the rentals on the machines already! some lovely units out there but we have no start up capital at the moment so we cant pin anything down. We saw this machine and a few others pop up and i decided to spend my savings on it. My dad will need to do a lot of practicing, he hasn't been a barista for over 35 years. I could do with a refresher myself as its been a couple for me too which is why we decided to buy one so we can spend lockdown perfecting our technique ready for when we have what we need to get going. We hoped this machine would be our livelihood but its looking to be a failure

We have applied for a few loans already but the climate isn't great for Catering/Cafes/hospitality sectors at the moment 😅


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## Mark70 (Jan 12, 2020)

TheWinterLotus said:


> Hi Mark, thanks for the input. Again, id like to at least try the basics and see where i can go from there, even if it is to the local tip. Id rather say i tried my best than give up. Even if the machine is only useful for practicing on and we end up getting a rental
> 
> I've looked at the rentals on the machines already! some lovely units out there but we have no start up capital at the moment so we cant pin anything down. We saw this machine and a few others pop up and i decided to spend my savings on it. My dad will need to do a lot of practicing, he hasn't been a barista for over 35 years. I could do with a refresher myself as its been a couple for me too which is why we decided to buy one so we can spend lockdown perfecting our technique ready for when we have what we need to get going. We hoped this machine would be our livelihood but its looking to be a failure
> 
> We have applied for a few loans already but the climate isn't great for Catering/Cafes/hospitality sectors at the moment 😅


 Look at Start up Loans. Search on google. Each partner can get up to £25k repayable over 5 years. These are provided by the Government for exactly what you are doing. I work for the British Business Bank who are responsible for providing the loans on behalf of the government. If you look in the SUL website you will see case studies where Cafes have been funded this way one in Sheffield comes to mind The demand is so high we have just received an extra £50m to fund new start ups

Our job is to provide funding on behalf of the Government when the high street banks don't

Where abouts are you?

Also contact your local Growth Hub for government funded support on business training and on occasions grants may be available

Good luck there is a lot of support available


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

It seems you are pretty determined and this is to be respected. 
You would need some good amount of citric acid looking at the size of the boiler and the descaling you would need to go through. 
Have you tried the Rancilio website for blown up diagrams that you must have to handle the task at hand?

Once I needed a diagram and I went not only to the local office but to their HQ in Italy (that was no Rancilio machine though) and I have managed. 
As Dave mentioned it will take a lot of fingers crossing not to have any electronics faulty but you Lih it be lucky (my point being your luck might change for better).

Being handy in the workshop will definitely pay off

Good luck with your project. I hope you would bring joy to your dad.


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## 28267 (Dec 8, 2020)

TheWinterLotus said:


> Hi Mark, thanks for the input. Again, id like to at least try the basics and see where i can go from there, even if it is to the local tip. Id rather say i tried my best than give up. Even if the machine is only useful for practicing on and we end up getting a rental


 @TheWinterLotus as others have said that machine is going to need a lot of work and probably some expensive components to get working. I'd echo others and push for a refund and look for a better machine.

I'd be wary of doing anything with in now whilst you try and sort a refund, any work you do may be used as an excuse not to refund you or claim that you broke it tinkering. I would not touch it until you have sorted out the way forward with the seller/ eBay dispute.

This old thread from a few years back might give you an idea what you are taking on, that machine looked to be in much better condition at the start compared to the one you have.

There are spare parts diagrams around on the web for the machine and some parts but it won't be cheap to get it up to a good standard even as a training machine.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/23267-rancilio-classe-6-a-new-beginning/?do=embed#comments

And as to age there should be a four digit number in the bottom right of the rating plate, with Rancilio that is normally the month and year of manufacture.


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

It is not possible for your own sake of mind that someone from Rancilio technical service take a look to your machine so that you get a final and professional verdict? If I were you I wouldn't miss a second and I would do as@DavecUK said, ask for a refund, it's not worth it to put money and time in this machine without the guarantee that it will work.


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## 28267 (Dec 8, 2020)

@TheWinterLotus - ok spotted your picture of the plate 0202. So February 2002 manufacture. Could be slightly later as my old Rancilio had factory test paperwork that was a good few months newer than the plate.


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

Mark70 said:


> Look at Start up Loans. Search on google. Each partner can get up to £25k repayable over 5 years. These are provided by the Government for exactly what you are doing. I work for the British Business Bank who are responsible for providing the loans on behalf of the government. If you look in the SUL website you will see case studies where Cafes have been funded this way one in Sheffield comes to mind The demand is so high we have just received an extra £50m to fund new start ups
> 
> Our job is to provide funding on behalf of the Government when the high street banks don't
> 
> ...


 Ill certainly take a look!! thanks for the info. We live in separate areas but are looking at Manchester as our store location, Possibly Burnley/Blackburn


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

AdG said:


> @TheWinterLotus - ok spotted your picture of the plate 0202. So February 2002 manufacture. Could be slightly later as my old Rancilio had factory test paperwork that was a good few months newer than the plate.


 Ah thanks for that, i didn't see a date but i wasn't really looking 😅


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

profesor_historia said:


> It is not possible for your own sake of mind that someone from Rancilio technical service take a look to your machine so that you get a final and professional verdict? If I were you I wouldn't miss a second and I would do as@DavecUK said, ask for a refund, it's not worth it to put money and time in this machine without the guarantee that it will work.


 It's a matter of cost at the moment rather than anything else. I certainly do not mind taking it on as a project but to have a Rancilio Tech take a look will cost money neither of us have


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

AdG said:


> @TheWinterLotus as others have said that machine is going to need a lot of work and probably some expensive components to get working. I'd echo others and push for a refund and look for a better machine.


 Already pushed for that refund haha. still waiting to hear back. So i will continue on this war path for now until i know for sure whats happening. I have previous bad luck in getting refunds so im not hopeful



> I'd be wary of doing anything with in now whilst you try and sort a refund, any work you do may be used as an excuse not to refund you or claim that you broke it tinkering. I would not touch it until you have sorted out the way forward with the seller/ eBay dispute.
> 
> This old thread from a few years back might give you an idea what you are taking on, that machine looked to be in much better condition at the start compared to the one you have.
> 
> ...


 Id been reading this thread already! There's a fair amount of useful info in there but i haven't got to the end yet


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

John Yossarian said:


> It seems you are pretty determined and this is to be respected.


 Why thank you 



> You would need some good amount of citric acid looking at the size of the boiler and the descaling you would need to go through.


 So is Citric acid the best for the job? I have a shoot ton of Citric acid crystals already from another project. I could make a solution with those. Is 30% about right?

Would it be better to flush all of the pipework of simply just add the solution to the boiler then drain after 24hours or so?



> Have you tried the Rancilio website for blown up diagrams that you must have to handle the task at hand?


 I already downloaded the maintenance manual before i went to view it so i knew what to look out for electronically. Unfortunately whereas it has the exploded diagrams it doesn't necessarily name the parts or state their intended functions for the most part

Ill take a look for more info on their site



> Once I needed a diagram and I went not only to the local office but to their HQ in Italy (that was no Rancilio machine though) and I have managed.
> As Dave mentioned it will take a lot of fingers crossing not to have any electronics faulty but you Lih it be lucky (my point being your luck might change for better).
> 
> Being handy in the workshop will definitely pay off
> ...


 Thank you! Its all i want to do right now


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

@TheWinterLotus I would recommend 10% citric acid. If the limescale is too bad, you might consider heating up the water to 50-60 deg C. If not too scaled 24 hours will be plenty of time (I would expect even after 5-10 hours to see significant improvement


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## Mark70 (Jan 12, 2020)

TheWinterLotus said:


> Ill certainly take a look!! thanks for the info. We live in separate areas but are looking at Manchester as our store location, Possibly Burnley/Blackburn


 If you need an introduction to the Growth Hub who can help with your plans send me a PM with your e mail. It's funded by the government and therefore free to access


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

El carajillo said:


> ...You can *easily* cook / fry electronic components using a *test meter*...


 it depends upon the Imedence of the meter...a very very old (e.g.Taylor/similar) style "analogue" meter then "possibly"....a modern/digital high impedence meter nah.

@TheWinterLotusas stated above, if you "touch/tinker/other" PayPal (via the sellers proof *you messed with it*) will not give you your money back. I understand you really want to fix it but the instant you "touch/visibly-alter" then it's yours. Hopefully by standing your ground i.e. "not as decribed" he may (no guarantee) just payback your money *and* tell you to keep the machine.

I wish you every success with whatever route you decide to take.


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

John Yossarian said:


> @TheWinterLotus I would recommend 10% citric acid. If the limescale is too bad, you might consider heating up the water to 50-60 deg C. If not too scaled 24 hours will be plenty of time (I would expect even after 5-10 hours to see significant improvement


 Thanks John, I'll write this down for future use. Would it be OK to add the solution directly to the boiler whilst it is still in place? Presumably via the anti vac valve? I'm wondering more for future deep clean/descaling on a working machine.

I've already ordered some Puly Caff as that's what was used do clean the machines at my old place. I've soaked all the shower screens, baskets and portafilters overnight and they're sparkling clean now. They looked just as bad as the ones on the other thread.

As soon as I know whether I'm getting refunded or not I'll crack on with everything else. I've been holding off for good reason although I've oreder some little bits ready for when/if. The seller has had all the pictures/videos sent over from when it erupted so he could see the extent of the mess inside the machine but he hasn't bothered to respond. I'll be calling my bank tomorrow for an update


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

Rumpelstiltskin said:


> it depends upon the Imedence of the meter...a very very old (e.g.Taylor/similar) style "analogue" meter then "possibly"....a modern/digital high impedence meter nah.
> 
> @TheWinterLotusas stated above, if you "touch/tinker/other" PayPal (via the sellers proof *you messed with it*) will not give you your money back. I understand you really want to fix it but the instant you "touch/visibly-alter" then it's yours. Hopefully by standing your ground i.e. "not as decribed" he may (no guarantee) just payback your money *and* tell you to keep the machine.
> 
> I wish you every success with whatever route you decide to take.


 All I've done so far is connect the water supply really and I have taken off the Anti vac nut to shine a torch in to see if the boiler needed descaling. I've been holding off doing any further work to it whilst I wait for the seller, bank and PayPal to get back to me. They had already had all the pics/videos so even if I decided to go ahead with anything it shouldn't affect the case. I'm not foolish enough to get too stripping it until its officially mine or if its getting returned to the seller there would be no point. I still don't think I'll have any luck getting a refund but only time will tell


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

@TheWinterLotus I know of people who have descaled directly with the boiler in the machine but I personally prefer to take it out and give it a good treatment. I assume you are going to use some softener before feeding the water to the machine in the future and this would significantly reduce the scaling. Then you can descale directly by filling the boiler. You seem to be in a region with relatively soft water so this should be something easier to handle. 
PayPal are usually very stringent with such shoddy deals on eBay so I am optimistic you would get the refund. If you end up with the machine due to the seller not collecting it this would be a bonus. 
Good luck with the project!


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

Some news. I spoke with PayPal earlier on the phone. They checked over the listing and he listed it as Used but in working order and as such i was fully covered by buyer protection. The money has been refunded! PayPal have said that its the sellers responsibility in this case to arrange the transport for its return and they have messaged him to inform him as such. I have messaged the seller too via phone but had no response yet.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I doubt the seller will bother to collect it.


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

John Yossarian said:


> @TheWinterLotus I know of people who have descaled directly with the boiler in the machine but I personally prefer to take it out and give it a good treatment.


 I'm going to add directly to the boiler this time as I plan to strip it fully and do a deep clean as soon as I hear back from the seller (or don't i guess) ill give him some time to reply but i would still like to go ahead and restore this one in the event he doesn't respond. Ive added a 10% solution to the boiler this evening, topped up the boiler with hot water. it was half full of cold when i added the solution so temp was resting at 63. Should be good and ill drain it tomorrow when I'm home from work. See what comes out.



> I assume you are going to use some softener before feeding the water to the machine in the future and this would significantly reduce the scaling. Then you can descale directly by filling the boiler. You seem to be in a region with relatively soft water so this should be something easier to handle.


 Yeah water is pretty soft here. Is it necessary to use softener? wouldn't it affect the taste of the coffee? if I'm flushing it each night with Puly caff wouldn't that keep on top of it all?



> PayPal are usually very stringent with such shoddy deals on eBay so I am optimistic you would get the refund. If you end up with the machine due to the seller not collecting it this would be a bonus.
> Good luck with the project!


 Indeed! and at least I have the money now to get hold of another machine!


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I doubt the seller will bother to collect it.


 I think i agree in this case Dave, he was quick to want it collected. Responded to every message immediately and gave me a lot of immediate grief when I opened the claim but has been awful quiet today. I'm a fair man and will give him some time to respond but this time next week ill be stripping it if I don't hear from him. in the mean time ill go machine hunting again


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

@TheWinterLotus Quite few forumers are currently using softeners and one may argue that taste-wise this should not be an issue. I personally, despite the fact that according to United Utilities data my area is super soft water, I have a softener. I have not noticed anything affecting the taste.

I am glad to hear that you have got your money back.


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

Hey guys! Quick update......

Yesterday I got my new piece of kit. And here he is, the Faema E98N/A-2H and Rimini Grinder. Old but reliable as right from storage everything seemingly works as it should. Drained and refilled the boiler with no issues. Cleaned up a little as best i could, Just waiting on the blind filters to arrive so i can descale but I'm super happy with it as it stands. Just need to find out how to program the dosage and boiler temps now 😅

(Ignore the messy environment, its in my basement workshop)


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

A quick question to further my understanding. In the home environment do you guys grind a fresh dose every time? or do you grind a little extra and store it airtight? How long would you guys say it would last like this?

I purged the grinder after cleaning yesterday and had a fair bit of ground so I've put it in an air tight canister ready for use. Gonna get practicing my milk steaming and latte art as soon as its descaled


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Never store ground coffee. It will be stale after 20 mins.


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

@TheWinterLotus i'm overjoyed to hear that PayPal fully refunded you; fees aside they do come good when the buyer has been shafted. I doubt that the seller is even gonna bother trying to pick it up; in which case i'd give him a deadline and if he still doesn't then it's yours to strip/examine/fix/modify/replace and to take your time/play with at your leisure; no rush as you now have something that you can use for your commercial venture with your dad.

I wish you both the very best and every success with your dream.


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

Rincewind said:


> @TheWinterLotus i'm overjoyed to hear that PayPal fully refunded you; fees aside they do come good when the buyer has been shafted. I doubt that the seller is even gonna bother trying to pick it up; in which case i'd give him a deadline and if he still doesn't then it's yours to strip/examine/fix/modify/replace and to take your time/play with at your leisure; no rush as you now have something that you can use for your commercial venture with your dad.
> 
> I wish you both the very best and every success with your dream.


 First of all.....My dad is the worlds most avid Terry Pratchett fan....so your username is fantastically on point 😅

Secondly, Thank you so much. I have already given him the deadline as next Tuesday. He messaged asking for me to repay the money, this is after ignoring everything I had said regarding the machines faults and me wanting a refund. He emailed pretty much immediately after the money was returned to me! the cheek!. Didn't matter that I had sent 7 messages asking for his input on the topic but had no reply. So he has until Tuesday to collect it or ill claim it and start to tinker. Feels a little unnerving and somewhat immoral to keep it but at the same time he has tried to con me and didn't make any effort to respond and so far has made no effort to collect it

Thanks for the well wishes, we are believers in good energies


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

lake_m said:


> Never store ground coffee. It will be stale after 20 mins.


 Thank you!


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Great ending indeed!

The Faema looks fantastic and I am sure once descaled will give shot after shot.

After tomorrow you, most likely, would have one more toy to play with. Your conscience should be OK, you did anything possible to get the guy engaged, he did get engaged at the end for the wrong reason.

Enjoy!


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

John Yossarian said:


> Great ending indeed!
> 
> The Faema looks fantastic and I am sure once descaled will give shot after shot.
> 
> ...


 Thanks John, i still feel like its not mine so its still stood there untouched but his only responses have been him wanting HIS money......nothing about the machine. So i guess he is a scammer that's unhappy with the outcome.

The Faema is brilliant! i love it. Could do with increasing the pressure a little and the heat of the coffee but ill work all that out in time. My only thing is the Anti Vac valve spits a fair amount of water out during the heat up cycle. If i leave one of the steam wands open a tad it stops it but if i forget i have a rather wet floor to contend with. Is this a faulty valve or something i can fix?

Its been fantastic since getting my Grinder set and producing coffee. I just need to work on my milk prep...the bane of all training baristas hahaha


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

TheWinterLotus said:


> Thanks John, i still feel like its not mine so its still stood there untouched but his only responses have been him wanting HIS money......nothing about the machine. So i guess he is a scammer that's unhappy with the outcome.
> 
> The Faema is brilliant! i love it. Could do with increasing the pressure a little and the heat of the coffee but ill work all that out in time. My only thing is the Anti Vac valve spits a fair amount of water out during the heat up cycle. If i leave one of the steam wands open a tad it stops it but if i forget i have a rather wet floor to contend with. Is this a faulty valve or something i can fix?
> 
> Its been fantastic since getting my Grinder set and producing coffee. I just need to work on my milk prep...the bane of all training baristas hahaha


 With regard to the anti vac valve, it spills some water out just before closing but by what you describe it is on the high side. If were you I would replace it with a new one, they are a few quid. Leaving the steam wand open is a bigger (and potentially more expensive in the long run) risk. I used to open and clean the antivac valve on my old Appia 1 gr (it had 5 l boiler so lots of steam power) and used food grade grease to make sure the o-ring was fitting well. As a first step you can look into it. It would not cost you a penny 😀 just yuour time and effort.


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## TheWinterLotus (Jan 30, 2021)

Thanks again John, Sorry for the late reply. Life's been crazy and some unfortunate events have taken place leaving me busier than usual. I've not had any need to use the machine in a while so ill get to looking at the Anti Vac next time its intended to be used. May just order a new one as a batter safe than sorry Approach.

I still need some practice and to get my artwork training started haha, i need some free time for that. Spending most of my days at the moment stuck underneath my new car, which was a waste of my time and money as it broke down 20mins from the sellers house, i literally have the worst luck 😒


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