# Help needed for newbie.



## rob1902 (Aug 7, 2012)

Hi people. This is my first post so take it easy on me. So far my coffee expertise only extends to nespresso, presso and aeropress. Can you advise me on a starter set (grinder, machine and a good dealer) with a total of budget of £600 to £700. I know this is small fry by your standards but think of it as a challenge. I would be interested in the propotion spent on the grinder vs machine. Looking forward to your advice.


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

For that sort of budget you could get yourself setup with a ver nice Rancillio Silva. A machine which has carved a great reputation both in the UK & USA as well as around the World.

In various forums there is so much written about it you will genrally find an answer to any probs that may come.

You will have to learn the machine but that is good for a first class insight into espresso.

For the money you could easily factor in the Silvias partner the Rancillio Rocky grinder. However you may like to think in terms of a Mazzer Grinder either new or secondhand because if you really get yourself into real coffee you would probably be looking to upgrade the Rocky after the initial period.

You should be prepared to spend as much money as you can afford on a Grinder. You will find that the grinder is the most important part of the total early espresso experience.

Welcome to the forum & good luck


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## rob1902 (Aug 7, 2012)

ronsil said:


> For that sort of budget you could get yourself setup with a ver nice Rancillio Silva. A machine which has carved a great reputation both in the UK & USA as well as around the World.
> 
> In various forums there is so much written about it you will genrally find an answer to any probs that may come.
> 
> ...












Thanks for the advice Ron. I notice you are fairly near to me. Do we have any good dealers in the north west I can go to? The Rancillio gear seems a good place to start. A stepped grinder could be good for grinds for the aeropress as well but I take your point that most of you guys move on from the Rocky. Is there such a thing as a good grinder that is easy to move back and forth between grinds?


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

Hello and welcome. One option would be to get a second hand Gaggia Classic. They're widely available, cheap, and considered the alternative to the Silvia as a decent first machine. Then you could spend more on a grinder which is arguably more important. You'll also want to factor in the extras: tamper, scales, milk jug etc. which could easily come to £100+


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Earlepap said:


> Hello and welcome. One option would be to get a second hand Gaggia Classic. They're widely available, cheap, and considered the alternative to the Silvia as a decent first machine. Then you could spend more on a grinder which is arguably more important. You'll also want to factor in the extras: tamper, scales, milk jug etc. which could easily come to £100+


 Indeed. And you can also upgrade the Classic with a PID temperature control for around £100. (I'm not saying the Silvia isn't a better machine than the Classic, but the general opinion seems to be now it's not twice as good as the Classic but it will cost you at least twice as much).

But tamper/scales/milk jug shouldn't really cost you more than £40 (you can spend a lot more, but then you are getting into the realm of costume jewellary. IMHO).


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

rob1902 said:


> total of budget of £600 to £700.


There you go. Of course on a Forum like this you will always get a spectrum of opinion.

See if you can try out any of the various options to help you decide which way to go.

There isn't a lot of places up here (NW) where you can do this so you may have to travel a bit. Likewise there are not many dealers where you can order , if you are going for new. I have always found my best deals 'on the net' eg Amazon currently have a well priced Silvia v3. You can find a good price for a Classic, if new, as the competition is very high.

Look out for these machines on this Forum or TMC where you will find well cared for secondhand


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Heres a suggestion from a different angle, controversial it may be..... I wish I had done this and saved myself a load of hastle. So I went for the Classic/MC2 starter combo & they did the job...but.....upgraditis kicked in and it wasnt long before I was searching for a better machine & grinder.

You've made the decision to commit to learning all about espresso? You've made the decision to commit some serious cash, right? OK - You may as well make a purchase up front which give you the kit right-first-time, which will last , be reliable, simple to use, reduce confusing variables like temperature stability, and, have decent resale value should you find in x months espresso isnt for you.

1. Spend 6-8 weeks researching machines, (enjoy your aeropress in the mean time the weeks will fly by) maybe visit Bella Barista to play around on some machines of all levels and budgets . I can highly recommend the Expobar Office Leva Dual Boiler PID, these can be found for

2. Read , read , read (this forum for starters!).

3. Watch Vimeo and Youtube.

4. During the research period save up as much cash as you can, if it means waiting another month it will be worth it....you might find your budget creeping up as you learn more..

5. Keep an eye on eBay (& this forum) for 2nd-hand Mazzers etc..there are bargains to be had. I would suggest at least £250 on a grinder

6. As mentioned above £100 for accessories.

I wish you the very best of luck. This is a complex area of coffee making, the more you learn the less you understand...however it is also the most rewarding feeling in the world to get to the stage where you can make better espresso than the majority of Cafes using equipment a fraction of the cost. Espresso when done correctly is gloriously delicious, as are espresso-milk-based drinks.

This forum will look after you ; )


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

I totally concur with what Gary says and just to add with a bit of time and patients you can a lot of good equipment second-hand, I have a set up that is totally second had, OK I only have an MC2 grinder and the single boiler Expobar Office Leva, but this only cost me £350 so if you are wait and keep and eye on here and ebay, you may get something that will last for years cheaply and avoid a dose of upgradeitis as well


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## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

On the flip side there was a guy on here a couple of months ago who dropped over a grand then decided that he preferred capsules/bean to cup.

Jumping in both feet does need to come with some caution!

(by the way, i don't disagree, only add some caution)


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## rob1902 (Aug 7, 2012)

Thanks for all the suggestions, you guys are extremely helpful. One of the best forums I've been on. My head is really spinning now! Taking my time to get this right seems to be the best option. The Expobar machine looks amazing but I can't find one for below £1000 unless you meant second hand. Anyway where's my aeropress?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Danm said:


> On the flip side there was a guy on here a couple of months ago who dropped over a grand then decided that he preferred capsules/bean to cup.
> 
> Jumping in both feet does need to come with some caution!
> 
> (by the way, i don't disagree, only add some caution)


I suspect this was an example of ''all the gear and no idea'' hence why obtaining the idea in advance is a wise move


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

rob1902 said:


> Thanks for all the suggestions, you guys are extremely helpful. One of the best forums I've been on. My head is really spinning now! Taking my time to get this right seems to be the best option. The Expobar machine looks amazing but I can't find one for below £1000 unless you meant second hand. Anyway where's my aeropress?


Ah my bad. A good offer here is 1099 inc full barista training (which has to be worth £100 of anyones money)

http://www.ravecoffee.co.uk/#/commercial-coffee-machines/4554175978


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## dobber (Jun 22, 2012)

hello Rob1902 and welcome,

I too agree with Gary and the more you learn the more your budget may have to increase, i was looking at the Silvia and that is what i wanted, then i learn about HX (heat exchange) and dual boilers and that also put my head in a spin. I would find out which machine would suit you more, or the coffee drinks you like, then you are narrowing down the selection.

Good luck, as i think we all know how hard a decisions can be on choosing the right machine.

Dobber


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## rob1902 (Aug 7, 2012)

Hi Dobber

Thanks for the help. I think I get Dual boilers but what is HX all about? PID is all about fine temp control?


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

There are essentially three main types of machine design. Single Boiler Dual Use (aka single boiler), HX (Heat eXchanger) and DB (Double Boiler).

The single boiler, commonly found in the Silvia and Gaggia Classic, has a single boiler with two thermostats. By switching thermostat, the same boiler can be used to steam or brew. The drawback of this design is that the machine takes a while to switch between temperatures which can introduce delays and extra faff.

HX machines, like the Fracino Cherub and Rocket machines, have a single, large boiler (usually over 1.7 litres) which is heated to approx 125 degrees to produce steam. The heating element is controlled by a pressurestat so that steam pressure is maintained. A sealed copper pipe runs through the boiler, which carries the brew water to the brew group, heating it indirectly as it passes through the pipe by the heat of the superheated water surrounding the pipe in the boiler. A HX machine can steam and brew at the same time.

Double Boiler machines, like the Fracino Piccino, Izzo Alex Duetto and the Expobar machine Gary mentioned use a separate dedicated boiler for each function - one maintaining water at brew temperature and one maintaining water at approx 125 degrees to produce steam for steaming milk. Like the HX, these machines can brew and steam at the same time.

A PID is essentially an electronically controllable thermostat. That is a massive simplification but works for explanation purposes. It can be used in place of the thermostat on single and double boiler machines (not HX because they do not have a brew boiler). Unlike a thermostat, which can cause large temperature swings because of their dead band, a PID will maintain the boiler temperature within a degree of the configured temperature.


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

Hi rob, HX means heat exchanger, and quite a few machines have it, some like it others dont? http://www.home-barista.com/hx-love.html

PID can be found on simple single boiler units but normally only as an add on, on many of the high end twin boiler units it come as as standard But most are £1k +

i have only been into espresso making properly for about 2 years and i still have lots to learn, and as other have already said this site and other like are really good for information.

have a read and take your time to digest. plus there are plenty of people on here that have some amazing kit but would still happily upgrade, so just look for a set up that suits you.

this is quite usefull http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-guide.html


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## dobber (Jun 22, 2012)

very well put Jimbow and that's the exactly why i went for a HX machine instead of single boiler dual use as I'm too impatient to wait for the turn around between brew and steam. As all my drinks would take 4-5 mins to make, due to resetting the boiler to suit the mode needed.

That's not to say you shouldn't look into them, but for me, i don't drink espressos at all, but i do drink cappuccino, mocha's and lattes.

It's all good fun


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## dobber (Jun 22, 2012)

Out of interested rob1902 what machines have you bee looking at?

Also what coffees do you drink or like to drink.

This might help us suggest machines to look for?


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## rob1902 (Aug 7, 2012)

Well after watching the Seattlegear stuff I was leaning towards the Rancillio Silvia or Crossland CC1. The CC1 it turns out is not available in the UK which is a shame as it seems a nice machine. I hadn't really thought about more expensive machines but then I didn't understand much did I? For a grinder I considered the Rocky because I imagine a stepless would do my head in trying to do different grinds (eg aeropress) then finding your way back to original settings. I drink mostly lattes and cappuccino with an occasional espresso.


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

have you watched any of the whole latte love stuff on youtube as Seattle don review all makes.

I was looking at the Silvia as a possible upgrade as its a very well made machine that has become the standard that other machines are judged by, but as technology evolves and companies redesign their products the Silvia has become very expensive for what it is, and if you drink a lot of milky drinks the delay between espresso & steam for milk warming will soon become tiresome, there is a vid on Seattle coffee gear on how long it takes to make 4 lattes and the fastest was a duel boiler at around 10 mins, where as the silvia took closer to 20 mins!!

as a person that drinks 50/50 latte/espresso from my machine i am more than happy with an HX. but don't take my work for it, go and have a look around a decent Espresso machine retailer, there are plenty out there and many a very helpful and very passionate about good coffee. many on here will be abel to point you in the direction of one local to you thats well regarded.


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## rob1902 (Aug 7, 2012)

Yes I'm beginning to think along the lines of a HX or dual boiler. What do you guys think of the Francino Piccino?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Lot of guys on here have Fracino machines and rate them highly. The Birmingham based firm have good customer service and after sales support.

Im sure someone will chime in with the low down on the Piccino specifically


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

a certain member on here that beat me to a second hand Expobar Brewtus III may well have a piccino for sale very soon. just depends on if he can sort out the OPV on the Brewtus


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

For the grinder, if you are likely to be switching grinds between espresso and brewed regularly then you might want to consider a Vario or Preciso grinder.


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## dobber (Jun 22, 2012)

[quote name=RobD

as a person that drinks 50/50 latte/espresso from my machine i am more than happy with an HX. [/quote]

I would agree with that, when i was looking and HX people suggested Fracino Piccino, Cherub and Nuova Simonelli Oscar. I have got an Expobar office pulsar.

I have no idea what to suggest on the grinder side i was fortunate enough to pick on up on here.

But this forum is oozing with knowledge on coffee and coffee related stuff.

Dob


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I've got a big thumbs up for the Vario here. I use it for my morning espresso and then my days grind for the AeroPress at work every day. So much control of the fineness and as you'll see. They use it most of the time in Kat & Gails videos so it can't be bad.

I can imagine the problem with spending megabucks immediately is that you've never seen the other side of the coin. You might get upgraditis even if you spend a grand right off the bat. Whereas if you spend a hundred on a Classic then get the obvious upgraditis as you're skill increases you've not burnt too big a hole in your pocket. Don't get my wrong, I think the Classic is a great machine and it would see someone right for many years, it's just as people get into coffee, their tendency to want shinier and shinier toys goes through the roof.


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

chimpsinties said:


> it's just as people get into coffee, their tendency to want shinier and shinier toys goes through the roof.


together with more control of the product to enable repeatable results.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

ronsil said:


> together with more control of the product to enable repeatable results.


Hey, you're preaching to the converted. Save that kind of talk for the missus


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## mike 100 (Jul 15, 2010)

If you are thinking of a Vario I was informed that the new W model should be available soon, this measures the weight of ground coffee as you grind, sure Gail & Kat have reviewed it.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I've got to admit. The W would be better. I just tend to chuck in the amount I want out and let it rip. If I do 19g for example and hit the 20s timer button then it takes about 14s to grind then I just let it run til the end to clear out any left overs. It's got very good retention (in other words it doesn't keep much in the grinder) as long as you let it run for a bit after. I wouldn't like to keep beans in the hopper anyway as it's not sealed so they'd go stale.

I think the W might be more expensive too and the normal Vario isn't exactly cheap


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