# Coffee Compexity



## Wingover (Jul 28, 2020)

I am wondering if anyone can help me fix my brew problem. I am getting coffee that is not too sour or bitter but also not complex, more like just one boring flavor. I am using quality beans from Gardelli, Coffee Collective etc. I like fruity light coffee.

I am using a Hario V60-02, Comandante grinder, TDS meter and Refractometer (cheap one). I am making my own water.

So far I was reading this forum and I used Mark's V60 method with 13.5g coffee and 225g water and 6 pours.

Here are 3 brews:

1. 1.2 TDS 17.2% extraction - I used 94c water and 27 clicks on the comandante. Finished at 3:10 (top of bed) Weak and a bit sours

2. 1.36 TDS 19.40% extraction - I used 97c water and 25 clicks. Finished at 3:15 A bit better but boring.

3. 1.36 TDS 19.14% extraction - I used 97c water and 23 clicks. Still boring. Finished at 3:25

Any advise on how to get complexity and different notes in the coffee?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Wingover said:


> I am wondering if anyone can help me fix my brew problem. I am getting coffee that is not too sour or bitter but also not complex, more like just one boring flavor. I am using quality beans from Gardelli, Coffee Collective etc. I like fruity light coffee.
> 
> I am using a Hario V60-02, Comandante grinder, TDS meter and Refractometer (cheap one). I am making my own water.
> 
> ...


 Why are you changing temp & grind? 94C water will be barely over 80c by brew end.

You can't use any of the cheap refractometers for brewed, they are too inconsistent (a jump of 2% EY from 27-25 clicks, would seem to bear this out).

Nevertheless, try going finer...if it's not getting smoky/hop bitterness, you have some way to go before over-extraction.

You mention EY but not bev mass?

A video might be useful?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Just noticed you are using an 02, do you not have an 01? If not, just pour straight down the middle with the 02 after bloom (the higher drop causes more agitation, so you don't need to pour in spirals).


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## Wingover (Jul 28, 2020)

Thanks for getting back to me. I was getting about 193g finished coffee. I am using the Bonavita kettle and I put it back on the base between pours to keep the temp up at 94 (or 97). I thought that by increasing the temp I will extract more since the first brew tasted a bit sour.

I don't have the Hario 01 but have an aeropress if you have a good recipe 🙂 I will try to go only in the middle next time. I am currently pouring from just above the V60 and try to time it at 10 sec per pour so the water goes straight down. I try not to go around the edge.

Should I go finer than 23 clicks? I am at 3:25 and based on your excel file I should see the top bed dry at 3:10.

I'll try to take a video tomorrow.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Wingover said:


> Thanks for getting back to me. I was getting about 193g finished coffee. I am using the Bonavita kettle and I put it back on the base between pours to keep the temp up at 94 (or 97). I thought that by increasing the temp I will extract more since the first brew tasted a bit sour.
> 
> I don't have the Hario 01 but have an aeropress if you have a good recipe 🙂 I will try to go only in the middle next time. I am currently pouring from just above the V60 and try to time it at 10 sec per pour so the water goes straight down. I try not to go around the edge.
> 
> ...


 Sorry, no, I don't have an Aeropress recipe that is a s quick/tasty/repeatable as V60. AP is also difficult to troubleshoot, as nothing happens until you make it.

Brew right off boil. You want the coffee in the brewer around 94c, not in the kettle.

Don't worry about going round the edge at bloom. Get the whole surface wet before the stir.

3:10 is an average, could be +/- 25s depending on coffee used at the extremes, easily within +/-15s. You can't brew by time that accurately. Focus on consistent pours, that's more important than end time.

If you're not getting smoky/hoppy bitterness, or a silty cup, try finer (sorry, I don't know what 23 clicks equates too in terms of grind size). The difference between under & over will likely be more than 8% change in grind (27 to 25). But get the temp up first, if temp & EY are low, grinding finer may make the cup silty before you hit an ideal extraction (this is a much more common fault than over-extraction). Also don't be afraid to brew with bit more coffee if you want to lift the intensity.


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## Wingover (Jul 28, 2020)

Okay, I made another cup, this time going off boil and I also closed two more clicks. I got 191.8g of finished coffee out of the 225.1g going in. It finished at 3:20. I know you said the refractometer is not accurate but as I close the grind the tds goes up along the 1:17 line on the extraction chart. This brew came in at 1.7 TDS so I calculated 24.15% EY. The coffee does taste harsh (I think bitter).

I don't know what Silty should taste like.

I was watching April Coffee video on their newest V60 recipe and they use the 02 size with about 12 or 13g coffee at a very low temp. They indicated 30 clicks on the Comandante grinder as a starting point.

I really appreciate the time you're taking to help!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Wingover said:


> Okay, I made another cup, this time going off boil and I also closed two more clicks. I got 191.8g of finished coffee out of the 225.1g going in. It finished at 3:20. I know you said the refractometer is not accurate but as I close the grind the tds goes up along the 1:17 line on the extraction chart. This brew came in at 1.7 TDS so I calculated 24.15% EY. The coffee does taste harsh (I think bitter).
> 
> I don't know what Silty should taste like.
> 
> ...


 If you want to do what April do, then do that. Talking "clicks" means nothing to me, or anyone else that doesn't use a Commandante.

You were supposed to just go hotter, without a grind adjustment.

So, anyway, you went 2 clicks finer to 21 and the EY jumped by 5%? Very, very unlikely, 5% is a massive jump. Even so, if you can adjust by one click, why not do this rather than 2 clicks each time? You have now changed grind from 27 to 21, nearly 25% change, seems a lot, if the first brew was a little off.

What was the 2nd decimal digit of TDS (one point seven, what?). I said the readings were too inconsistent with a cheap refractometer, e.g. the Amtast has twice the std deviation in readings compared to my VST (even if the average is the same...so with a single coffee I might see +/-0.4%EY with the VST, the Amtast will show +/-0.9%EY...so over a lot of brews, with different coffees the Amtast won't appear to keep within a 4% span, it'll be much larger, which is useless as this simply won't happen if you are consistent and you'll be fooled into thinking you need to keep changing grind). Don't read so much into individual readings, at constantly changing settings, it's more useful to look at trends& overall consistency. Even at the same grind setting/EY, you will still get slight shifts in flavour brew to brew, so do a couple at each setting, at least.

Silty would be powdery on the tongue, maybe a little charred tasting. Over is a very distinctive bitterness (drying smoke/bitter hop, whether you have the powderyness, or not), not all bitterness is over. However, try loosening off the grind, now that you are brewing hotter, see if that helps.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Zephyp said:


> I ground 14.4g on the Comandante Nitro at setting 26.
> 
> 14.36 came out of the grinder.
> 
> ...


 Maybe this will help? I'd be looking at 11-12% under 400 Kruve, so likely coarser than 26?


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## Wingover (Jul 28, 2020)

Thanks. I will use the equivalent clicks and try a brew with hot water to start again.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

How are you making your own water? 🙃


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## manzyuk (Feb 8, 2021)

MWJB said:


> Maybe this will help? I'd be looking at 11-12% under 400 Kruve, so likely coarser than 26?


 I've looked for particle size distribution data for Comandante and found this:


http://imgur.com/a

. The first chart, in particular, suggests that even at 22 clicks (the lower end of the recommended pour over range) the amount of particles under 400um is probably less than 6% 🤷‍♂️ I don't know if this discrepancy is due to differences in the sifting protocols, or because one set of burrs is duller than the other, or because different grinders are calibrated differently, but I think it renders the above suggestion pretty useless. It feels like you need a Kruve sifter and do the sifting to find the right setting for your grinder.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

manzyuk said:


> I've looked for particle size distribution data for Comandante and found this:
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/a
> ...


 I can't read, nor understand the linked image.

6% at 400Kruve would be too coarse for anything other than a huge V60/Chemex/drip brew with a conical hand grinder.

It would probably take you 20yrs to dull hand grinder burrs.

Forget recommended ranges from manufacturers unless they provide a pour regime (which they never do). The only figure that you can work with & trust, is the % at 400Kruve.

If you are using Kruve sifts to calibrate, then yes, you need a Kruve sifter. I sift with 10g per sample, 2 mins of shaking side to side, with occasional downwards & sideways taps. Results are very consistent (for a given grinder setting I see 11-13% @ 400 for instance). I doubt anyone has more Kruve results than I do.

Here, 27 on a Cammandantes MkIII gave 10% at 400Kruve, so it seems very unlikely that 22 (finer) would give 6%. However, I've never had access to a Commandante and apart from the result linked, not seen compelling sift results for one. Page 9, second post down.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/33769-kruve-techniques-amp-dialling-in/page/9/?do=embed#comments


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## manzyuk (Feb 8, 2021)

MWJB said:


> I can't read, nor understand the linked image.
> 
> 6% at 400Kruve would be too coarse for anything other than a huge V60/Chemex/drip brew with a conical hand grinder.
> 
> ...


 Mark, I should be clear: I don't have doubts in your recipe and I very much admire your scientific approach! I'm struggling to find the right grinder setting, which is why I'm obsessively searching for any clues.

I've already tried 27 clicks based on the data from that thread (as you can see, I've searched this forum quite extensively!), and (a) I was frustrated by not being able to get the brew time in the right ballpark, and (b) I remember I wasn't happy with the taste either.

This morning I tried to replicate your 1 mug V60 recipe as accurately as I could and filmed myself doing that, so that I could ask for feedback about my technique:






13.5g / 225ml, 27 clicks on Comandante, V60 01, Japanese tabbed bleached filters, Waitrose Essential Lockhill water off the boil. As you can see, the water drains really quickly, there is almost no standing water above the coffee bed, and the total brew finished in 2:36. What do you think?

I'm a bit ashamed to admit this, but the coffee tasted surprisingly good  I've been struggling to get good results out of this particular coffee (Rwandan "Liza Lot 16" from Horsham Coffee Roasters), but this cup might have been the sweetest out of 12 cups that I brewed. Maybe 27 clicks is the right ballpark after all...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

manzyuk said:


> Mark, I should be clear: I don't have doubts in your recipe and I very much admire your scientific approach! I'm struggling to find the right grinder setting, which is why I'm obsessively searching for any clues.
> 
> I've already tried 27 clicks based on the data from that thread (as you can see, I've searched this forum quite extensively!), and (a) I was frustrated by not being able to get the brew time in the right ballpark, and (b) I remember I wasn't happy with the taste either.
> 
> ...


 Technique looks good. Maybe go easier on the swirl at end.

It does seem a tad coarse/fast draining but I have had brews end around 2:40. The time between end of last pour & dry bed has the most variation.

I usually have enough standing liquid to pour the last 2 pulses straight down the middle & tend to brew more around 66g/l these days.

Maybe try a few more brews coffees at 27...if they err towards tangy/weak, tighten up a click?


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## manzyuk (Feb 8, 2021)

Thank you, Mark! Appreciate your feedback. I will try more brews at 27 and will report back.


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## manzyuk (Feb 8, 2021)

MWJB said:


> Maybe try a few more brews coffees at 27...if they err towards tangy/weak, tighten up a click?


 I brewed 6 cups at 27 clicks and didn't feel the need to tighten the grind. In fact, with Rwandan and Columbian beans there was a very slight harshness in the cups, just a hint of tickling in the throat, that made me want to try a coarser grind. I brewed 3 cups at 28 clicks, and with Rwandan and Columbian beans I might have a slight preference for the coarser grind, but I thought a Costa Rican tasted better at 27 clicks. This just reinforces for me what I've seen you say many times, Mark: some coffees are more soluble than others and at the same grind setting will extract higher. Those Rwandan and Columbian were still quite tasty at 27 clicks, so this is where I'm inclined to stay for the time being, even though the brews all ended around 2:45.


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## Zephyp (Mar 1, 2017)

I've used a Comandacte C40 and V60 01 a few years. Sharing my experience might help. Not necessarily the exact settings and techniques, but the general approach.

I've been using Mark's technique pretty consistently. The only thing I've changed a bit is ratio.

240 or 250g water to 15g beans (16:1 and 16.7:1). 30g bloom with a stir. Then 6 more pours every 20 seconds. 35g per pour with 240g, slightly more with 250g. Light swirl of dripper after the final pour. I only use light roast, mostly Africans, but lately also more South Americans. Tabbed Hario filters in loose plastic bag.

I started around 27-30 clicks with the Comandante C40 Nitro, which gave OK results, but too frequent poor brews. I ventured down to 24, which gave consistently better brews. Tried for a period going down to 20 clicks, but it gave worse results, so I went back up to 24. These days I'm using a Wilfa Uniform and the C40 when travelling. The setting for the C40 I've landed on is 24. Maybe one click up or down if need be.

What I found useful was to not judge brews by a one or two cups. When I changed from 27-range to 24-range, I may not have noticed as much on single brews (I got some good ones on 27 too), but after using the new setting a few weeks I realized that the general quality of the cup was improved. I can still get the occasional cup that's not great, but the average is very much enjoyable. I also stopped caring about brew time. They usually land around 3:15 +/- 25 seconds, but it's nothing I use to direct my technique. Taste is what matters. If anything, I make a mental note of what brew time spectrum I get the best results, and 3:15 seems like a good place.


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## manzyuk (Feb 8, 2021)

Thank you @Zephyp, appreciate your comment!

I believe you have a Kruve sifter. I'm curious if you have tried sifting with the 400 sieve at 24 clicks to see whether you still land in the 10-16% range.

I've tried a number of different settings over the last two weeks, and got myself pretty thoroughly confused. It seems that I can brew likeable cups both on the coarse and fine ends of the pour over range. For example, I brewed two cups yesterday, one at 20 and another at 28 clicks (same dose, water weight, and pouring regime), and somehow both came out delicious. The cups at a finer grind setting (and I've gone as far as 15 clicks) were still scored at least 6 / 9, and I often found them sweeter and generally more flavoursome but unfortunately at the same time on the bitter side (although sometimes within my tolerance to bitterness). The cups at a coarser grind setting seem to consistently have more clarity.

I used to brew using a different recipe: 18g / 300ml, 60ml bloom for 30s, then pour 40ml every 30s, typically finishing the last pour by 3:15 and the total brew time landing between 3:45 and 4:00. This is a recipe with the same number of pours but the pours are spread out more, so the flow rate is slower (?), which probably requires a coarser grind than for Mark's 1 mug recipe (the one you use). Yet I found a sweet spot for that recipe to be 23 clicks, and I also found that if I stray away from it even 1-2 clicks either way then on average the quality of cups goes down (some coffees might improve but some become very noticeably weaker or more bitter). This, in particular, encouraged me to explore the finer end of the range of settings.

What attracted me to Mark's recipe is all the research he has put into it. I previously heard many times that every coffee needs to be dialled in and the right grind needs to be found that suits the coffee, and frankly I found this frustrating. So, the idea that there is a single grind setting which allows one to consistently produce good, tasty cups across a variety of beans, is very appealing to me!

I have to say that in an attempt to zoom in on the right setting for Comandante I've been trying to map recommended settings for other grinders making lots of unjustified assumptions along the way. I don't think it works that way, and I'm now looking if I can buy a Kruve sifter to do proper calibration, but it can be amusing sometimes and can provide some "evidence" to support a particular setting. For example, Mark's spreadsheet mentions setting 19 for Lido E. The manual says 1-4 clicks for ibrik and 4-8 clicks for espresso. If we use the recommended ranges from the Comandante manual, 5-10 clicks for ibrik and 10-15 clicks for espresso, then 1.25 * clicks + 5 gives a mapping from Lido E settings to Comandante with a reasonable match. Extrapolating, 19 clicks for Lido E would map to 1.25 * 19 + 5 = 28.75, so 28-29 clicks for Comandante. I know it's ridiculous but I've done lots of similar calculations... The problem is not only that the whole approach is flawed but also that depending on the assumptions and the grinder settings you begin with, you can end up with very different hypothetical settings for Comandante, and that's been driving me nuts.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

manzyuk said:


> What attracted me to Mark's recipe is all the research he has put into it. I previously heard many times that every coffee needs to be dialled in and the right grind needs to be found that suits the coffee, and frankly I found this frustrating. So, the idea that there is a single grind setting which allows one to consistently produce good, tasty cups across a variety of beans, is very appealing to me!


 I've yet to find a manual brew method (when dialled in) that needs constant adjustment. You've made a little leap with, "good, tasty cups". The coffee you, I, or anyone else is buying is not equally tasty. Maybe down to different roast interpretations, certainly down to preferences for certain origins. A few cups are bad, most are good & better than "neither like/dislike", a few are most excellent. A mistake many people make is to assume that all coffees can be made equally tasty, just by changing grind, or another factor.

I generally do runs of 10 brews minimum, at a default setting (unless something is clearly wrong & fixed by grind), each with a different roast/origin, then look at the average score for those 10...if it is low, I then decide what to do about it for the next 10 & onwards. It takes a while, sure, but doesn't seem to need lots of iterations, one or two small changes in grind tops.

I've never found OE's suggested settings that useful, any grind setting suggestion needs to be matched with a pour rate & brew size, I've never seen this from any grinder manufacturer...I've rarely, if ever, seen "French press" described as finer than, or equal to pour over, but it certainly should be for single walled glass presses 

People who make grinders, make grinders & can do a terrific job of making a mechanical device, it doesn't mean I want them making my brews though


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## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

MWJB said:


> I've yet to find a manual brew method (when dialled in) that needs constant adjustment. You've made a little leap with, "good, tasty cups". The coffee you, I, or anyone else is buying is not equally tasty. Maybe down to different roast interpretations, certainly down to preferences for certain origins. A few cups are bad, most are good & better than "neither like/dislike", a few are most excellent. A mistake many people make is to assume that all coffees can be made equally tasty, just by changing grind, or another factor.
> 
> I generally do runs of 10 brews minimum, at a default setting (unless something is clearly wrong & fixed by grind), each with a different roast/origin, then look at the average score for those 10...if it is low, I then decide what to do about it for the next 10 & onwards. It takes a while, sure, but doesn't seem to need lots of iterations, one or two small changes in grind tops.
> 
> ...


 Thank you this is really solid advice. I was killing myself with grind adjustments to make a coffee taste good as a v60. I had the same coffee as a french press and it turns out I don't much like that bean!


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