# HELP: London hard water and how to prevent it from ruining machine



## Peacock (May 2, 2018)

Hi there! I'm relatively new to the espresso world. I've inherited a barista express (yes I've read its not the best but its perfect for me) and would love to keep it working as long as possible.

It's been around a year, and afraid that the London hard water was affecting it I ran it through a descaling procedure. After reading about how tough descaling is on machines I now regret that and flushed the whole machine thoroughly. Lesson learned and I'll never descale again.

Sage makes hard water filters, which I read are ion exchange resin based, so if I let the water sit in the tank with this filter over night (I'll stir it before brewing to get the water more airated) and change the filter every 4-6 weeks (instead of 8 weeks as recommended by manual) should all my bases be covered? Is there anything else I can do to improve the water so that it doesn't build up scale in the machine?

The manual specifically says to only use tap water, so I am curious a) why they say that, and B) why so many people recommend bottled water?

What are the risks?

Thank you!


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

i use bottled water


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

Hi and as this is your first post, welcome too...

Some bottled waters are no better in preventing scale than many tap waters, so perhaps Sage covers all the bases as well as selling their own kit.

If you use the Forum Search button many threads on the matter will be found. Contributors of note are MWJB and DavecUK, both who have done sterling work on the matter.

Have fun!


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Hello and welcome.

I broadly agree with what's been said already. The abovementioned members are acknowledged to be very knowledgeable. Xpenno has also done lots of research on water. It's actually a surprisingly complex subject. I believe Maxwell Collonna-Dashwood has a book on it.

TLR

Descaling isn't so bad for the machine that allowing it to scale up is preferable! Use a suitable/recommend descaler, according to instructions, only when needed.

The Barista Express is a fair enough machine, don't do yourself a disservice! A friend of mine has one and we get decent results from it.

I'm not far from London (west) and have a dual boiler machine. These are notably harder to descale due to three difficulty of getting the descaler out of the steam boiler. To avoid the need to descale, I use Volvic.

Not all bottled water is good. Some (e.g. Buxton) have way too much hardness for espresso machine use. You want a TDS of between 80-120 (roughly- experts please correct me here).

There's more to it than scale. Good mineral balance is needed for a tasty extraction. You need some minerals, some hardness, and a certain pH. There is an 'ideal coffee water' spec developed by the SCAA or SCAE (can't remember which). The consensus I this forum seems to be for 3 main bottled waters for use in machines.

-Volvic

-Waitrose Essential Stretton Hills

-Tesco Ashbeck

Some even go so far as to blend them. I found Ashbeck had lower TDS than Volvic but produced a 'drier' taste due to pH. Waitrose water was good value but a pain to source for me.

I don't have much faith in these ion exchange things as regards scale, especially with very hard tap water such as round London area. Same goes for Brita jugs.

Some people have reverse osmosis filters. They will then need to either add certain minerals back in, or allow a % bypass. This system is good for those running rotary pump machines that are plumbed in. With a BE, it's probably easier to keep a bottle of suitable water to hand.

If you're interested there are some very detailed posts on the forum. If you don't want to read too much, just use Volvic or WE or Ashbeck.

_______

Eat, drink and be merry


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Waitrose Essential Lockhills is the only bottled water that meets all SCAE, SCAA, Water for Coffee ideal parameters (they all overlap), without blending.

Ashbeck is low on pH, total hardness & alkalinity.


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

Picking up on the question of how damaging descaling is for machines, I have a Gaggia Classic which I've descaled before going over to bottled water. I'm not aware of problems descaling the Classic - it's usually recommended. Can someone fill us in on this?


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

MWJB said:


> Waitrose Essential Lockhills is the only bottled water that meets all SCAE, SCAA, Water for Coffee ideal parameters (they all overlap), without blending.
> 
> Ashbeck is low on pH, total hardness & alkalinity.


I was advised some time ago to mix Ashbeck (3 parts) with Highland Spring (1 part), both from Tesco which is just down the road, compared to the nearest Waitrose at some 15 miles away. So @MWJB my question is does this mix come anywhere near to being acceptable in the fight against scale? Or should I look into bulk ordering the Lockhills online? Or can you suggest anything else from the Tesco range that might be a more suitable/better mixer? Thanks in advance.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

********** said:


> I was advised some time ago to mix Ashbeck (3 parts) with Highland Spring (1 part), both from Tesco which is just down the road, compared to the nearest Waitrose at some 15 miles away. So @MWJB my question is does this mix come anywhere near to being acceptable in the fight against scale? Or should I look into bulk ordering the Lockhills online? Or can you suggest anything else from the Tesco range that might be a more suitable/better mixer? Thanks in advance.


Yes, this mix is also in the ideal zone (about 40mg/L alkalinity, 1.7:1 hardness to alkalinity). No need to change if you are happy.

You could also mix Ashbeck at the same ratio with Tesco Perthshire if HS was out of stock.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

@Batian suggested I make up a simple chart of bottled water mixes for espresso machines. WE Lockhills needs no mix. You can also use plain Volvic, but it doesn't quite have the hardness to meet the various ideal water zones, so is not an apparent option on the chart (only guaranteed to be useful at date in chart title, if anyone notices any changes in source/ label values, let me know).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/187vd8fjVQGCrvaoEz071BoSEOl-IY3rTl0-fZXLGx1w/edit?usp=sharing


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## russe11 (May 12, 2012)

les24preludes said:


> Picking up on the question of how damaging descaling is for machines, I have a Gaggia Classic which I've descaled before going over to bottled water. I'm not aware of problems descaling the Classic - it's usually recommended. Can someone fill us in on this?


If it's not doing any harm just carry on as you are?


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> @Batian suggested I make up a simple chart of bottled water mixes for espresso machines. WE Lockhills needs no mix. You can also use plain Volvic, but it doesn't quite have the hardness to meet the various ideal water zones, so is not an apparent option on the chart (only guaranteed to be useful at date in chart title, if anyone notices any changes in source/ label values, let me know).
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/187vd8fjVQGCrvaoEz071BoSEOl-IY3rTl0-fZXLGx1w/edit?usp=sharing


Great! Well done. Thank you.

Perhaps someone with the power could could pull MWJB's post and link and make it a sticky in a suitable place?

It could save a load of repeat posts to water related questions.


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## MogCoffee (May 12, 2018)

I don't know if anyone has read or heard Max Collona-Dashwood speak about this issue and whole cation issue? He suggested Tesco's basics as one of the best brands for making coffee.

Here is a link to an article he was a co author on https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?start=0&q=Maxwell+colonna-dashwood&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5#d=gs_qabs&p=&u=%23p%3DdGWWmtHZ-08J

Bit technical .. but also he launched a Kickstarter campaign called peak water - so you get a kettle which can basically give you the right sort of water using tap water. Not quite the sol for big espresso maker but could do the trick. Check it out here...there is a website for it but not sure where and also a couple of YouTube videos.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/522120647/peak-water-coffee-brewing-elevated


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MogCoffee said:


> I don't know if anyone has read or heard Max Collona-Dashwood speak about this issue and whole cation issue? He suggested Tesco's basics as one of the best brands for making coffee.


I don't know what Tesco basics water is? He mentioned Ashbeck as an option he tried when away from home to salvage a coffee, but Ashbeck does not fit his, or any other ideal zone for coffee water. Tesco Everday water is typically hard, normal, British water & also does not comply.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Back in my day it was Tesco's Value and Sainsbury's Basics. 

If you are talking about Teco's table water, I think that's just basically tap water in a bottle.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Back in my day it was Tesco's Value and Sainsbury's Basics.
> 
> If you are talking about Teco's table water, I think that's just basically tap water in a bottle.


Last time I looked Tesco Everyday was Chase Spring. In terms of calcium, magnesium & bicarbonte spring, mineral, tap water may be the same thing depending on your area, but certain treatments may exlude water from being natural mineral water & some areas my draw tap water from more than one source.


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## Jcon2406 (Aug 29, 2018)

Super useful thread - thanks


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