# Is there a limit to how fine to go with the grind?



## Marmottefarcie (May 13, 2018)

I have recently acquired a Fracino Piccino to try to progress my coffee production.

I have been using a Handground hand grinder up to now.

I have read some blog posts that suggest that going ultra fine on the grind settings may yield better results.

Since I'm already at the limit of what the hand grinder will produce, my wife asked the local coffee shop to grind a bag of their beans in their industrial grinder for me.

The results are not quite talcum powder-y in fine-ness but very fine nonetheless.

When I use the very fine powder in the Piccino it causes the portafilter to regurgitate watery fines all over the place. If I use the same amount of handground beans (appreciably coarser texture), the portafilter doesn't regurgitate at all.

Is the commercially ground coffee too fine for the machine to cope with or is it more likely a tamping issue?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You may be overfilling the portafilter, what weight of grounds are you using?


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

What weights/basket size/output/time taken?


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## Marmottefarcie (May 13, 2018)

MWJB said:


> You may be overfilling the portafilter, what weight of grounds are you using?


With the Piccino there are 2 baskets supplied. The instructions are to fill the basket to the marked line 5mm below the rim of the basket.

Taking the smaller of the two baskets, filling it to the specified line with hand ground gives 9g and doesn't provoke regurgitation. Filling the same basket to the line with commercially ground/very fine gives 10g and does provoke regurgitation.

So I then tried 9g of the commercially ground/very fine and still experienced regurgitation.

The timing of the process doesn't seem to be relevant since if regurgitation is going to occur, it happens within 5 secs of pressing the button.

The bigger basket takes about 16g - works ok with hand ground but regurgitates with very fine.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Marmottefarcie said:


> With the Piccino there are 2 baskets supplied. The instructions are to fill the basket to the marked line 5mm below the rim of the basket.
> 
> Taking the smaller of the two baskets, filling it to the specified line with hand ground gives 9g and doesn't provoke regurgitation. Filling the same basket to the line with commercially ground/very fine gives 10g and does provoke regurgitation.
> 
> ...


By "regurgitation" do you mean that with the portafilter locked in place, that water & grounds are escaping around the rim of the PF during the shot? E.g. that the basket/PF is not fully locked in place?


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## Marmottefarcie (May 13, 2018)

MWJB said:


> By "regurgitation" do you mean that with the portafilter locked in place, that water & grounds are escaping around the rim of the PF during the shot? E.g. that the basket/PF is not fully locked in place?


Yes exactly that - water & grounds escaping around the rim of the PF even though the PF is locked home as tight as I can get it.

I wondered if grounds on the rim of the PF might be causing a poor seal so I tried again having cleaned up the machine/portafilter interface very thoroughly - it still does it unless I switch over to the slightly coarser hand ground coffee powder.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Is any coffee actually ending up in the cup?

It could be that, as you say, there's a poor seal on the basket with the group gasket, as the coffee is too fine, the water under pressure will find the path of least resistance.

Is the gasket clean? Try removing the shower screen and gasket, fit it a good clean, but it back (flat side down, bevelled side up) and go from there.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Marmottefarcie said:


> Yes exactly that - water & grounds escaping around the rim of the PF even though the PF is locked home as tight as I can get it.
> 
> I wondered if grounds on the rim of the PF might be causing a poor seal so I tried again having cleaned up the machine/portafilter interface very thoroughly - it still does it unless I switch over to the slightly coarser hand ground coffee powder.


What happens with 9.0g of fine ground coffee?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Marmottefarcie said:


> Yes exactly that - water & grounds escaping around the rim of the PF even though the PF is locked home as tight as I can get it.
> 
> I wondered if grounds on the rim of the PF might be causing a poor seal so I tried again having cleaned up the machine/portafilter interface very thoroughly - it still does it unless I switch over to the slightly coarser hand ground coffee powder.


I had that problem with my Piccino. Bought used and not used for a long time and not really cleaned properly even though it had pulled very few shots with extremely gunky beans. The grouphead seal had hardened so I remove the shower screen, the brass part behind it and soaked them in puly cafe. The best option with the seal was to replace it. I chose to use a silicon rubber one - they are available off ebay, a bit dearer than rubber ones but should last longer. Seals hardening when machines haven't been used for a while seems to be normal to me. Even new ones soften up a bit making fitting the portafilter easier after a number of shots.

I'd say 9g may be a bit high for the single but that's based on a bean that is lighter than many others. It depends on grind and beans. Some suggest placing a coin over the tamped grounds and fitting the portafilter. Remove and look at the impression the coin leaves - it needs to be slight or none at all. A 1p coin is probably suitable or something a bit thicker. If the coin makes it hard to get the portafilter on then there is too much in the basket.

The handle on the portafilter should be at 90 degrees to the machine when it's fitted. Variations change the fill height a bit so are best avoided within reason.

I had very good results with the machine. Leave the portafilter empty with it's basket fitted. Heat up time including the portafilter is about 20min from cold. Flush the machine, 5 to 10 secs should do, remove the portafilter, dry it, grind and add them, tamp and then pull the shot. In my case the machine was then turned off. If left on I strongly suspect knocking out the puck, refitting the portafilter and the same flush before grinding and adding fresh ground will give consistent results on subsequent shots.

It might be worth adding that hand grinders that do a decent job tend to be rather expensive.

John

-


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## Marmottefarcie (May 13, 2018)

ajohn said:


> I had that problem with my Piccino. Bought used and not used for a long time and not really cleaned properly even though it had pulled very few shots with extremely gunky beans. The grouphead seal had hardened so I remove the shower screen, the brass part behind it and soaked them in puly cafe. The best option with the seal was to replace it. I chose to use a silicon rubber one - they are available off ebay, a bit dearer than rubber ones but should last longer. Seals hardening when machines haven't been used for a while seems to be normal to me. Even new ones soften up a bit making fitting the portafilter easier after a number of shots.
> 
> I'd say 9g may be a bit high for the single but that's based on a bean that is lighter than many others. It depends on grind and beans. Some suggest placing a coin over the tamped grounds and fitting the portafilter. Remove and look at the impression the coin leaves - it needs to be slight or none at all. A 1p coin is probably suitable or something a bit thicker. If the coin makes it hard to get the portafilter on then there is too much in the basket.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much John for the detailed reply - I will do as you suggest re grouphead seal and see if it helps. The coin idea sounds like a brilliantly simple way to check dosing. Lots to be trying out. Thanks again


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## Marmottefarcie (May 13, 2018)

Thanks to all those who made suggestions - especially ajohn.

I changed the grouphead seal for a silicone one and gave the shower screen area a thorough clean (it was grim beyond measure).

Now the portafilter no longer regurgitates and the coffee tastes markedly better. Big win. Many thanks for your help.


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