# Kafmasino One



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I hesitate to post this but I guess if people see it before the kickstarter is launched and they eagerly sign up to an early bird reward it could be a positive.

https://kafmasino.com/

Looks like an almost total rip-off of the DE1 with maybe a generic build of the machine itself that has been modified with the necessary sensors and controls.

Or it could all just be a lie like so many other kickstarter projects of the type.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rob1 said:


> I hesitate to post this but I guess if people see it before the kickstarter is launched and they eagerly sign up to an early bird reward it could be a positive.
> 
> https://kafmasino.com/
> 
> ...


 They are one of our new advertisers (along with Rave Coffee...I think it's a little different in that it has a 500ml brew boiler...

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/56711-cfuk-advertisers-list/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=838790&embedComment=838790&embedDo=findComment#comment-838790


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Hm I searched for the name but it didn't bring anything up, must be the use of a special character.

Well if it's a legitimate thing it'll be interesting. I can't look at stuff like this without thinking of the Arist. Hopefully we get to see the internals on the kickstarter page.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I think it's great that they thought we were a forum worth advertising on, didn't try and spam us, but did things the right way...to me that says a lot about a company. I too am very interested to see more about the technology when the Kickstarter goes live. The more choice people have the better IMO.


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

If it comes out looking anything like the pictures, that'll be one ugly machine.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

Fez said:


> If it comes out looking anything like the pictures, that'll be one ugly machine.


 It looks like it fell from the top of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

Rob1 said:


> I hesitate to post this but I guess if people see it before the kickstarter is launched and they eagerly sign up to an early bird reward it could be a positive.
> 
> https://kafmasino.com/
> 
> ...


 Look like the love child of Decent and miss Silvia...

I'm not sure they should ever have hooked up, because that is one ugly baby.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I'm getting the impression you guys don't like the way it looks.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rob1 said:


> I'm getting the impression you guys don't like the way it looks.


 Nah, I think that's the renders giving the surface a appearance different to the brushed finish I expect it will be. Looks OK to me, depends on functions and price.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> Nah, I think that's the renders giving the surface a appearance different to the brushed finish I expect it will be. Looks OK to me, depends on functions and price.


 If you look at the IRL pictures it's indeed brushed steel. Not a huge fan of that, but it at least look better them the rendering.

if they could just offer a black and white versions I think It would help a little on it's wannabe Silvia looks.


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## GlenW (Sep 7, 2013)

I couldn't help but notice some similarities between the app shown in the video on their site and my Decent machine

e.g. this screen (screengrab from their video when making a coffee)









and this:







(I was lazy and didn't take a photo whilst actually taking a shot - otherwise would have looked even more similar)

and also between the profile editing screen:









and this:









I get that it's an early look at a new product - but I would have thought they would have wanted to put their 'own stamp' on the customer experience and not have something that feels so similar to a competitor


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@GlenW Perhaps they will, it is sometimes difficult though. There is often a good way of doing something, that's unavoidable to have similarities to what others do.

Lightbulbs, Cutlery, Computer Mouse, TV remote control, smartphone interface, automobile controls etc


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Adding the buttons so that it can be used without a tablet is an interesting touch. Pity the gravimetric dosing is via scales on the drip tray but if an SBE can produce shots to better than 2ml  assuming people can persuade it to work as it can isn't that good enough? I'd assume the flow meter in this one can function more accurately than the SBE can.

As Dave mentions a touch screen is a touch screen - only so much can be done with them for this sort of use, or any other if mimicking a mouse is included. They mimic sliders, push buttons and knobs etc.

Style - Silvia and Gaggia like. Maybe they should put an E61 head on it rather than the wart on Decent's machine.

They may just turn out to be yet another premium price type company.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

If they can bring it to market at a good price point I am sure it will do very well.

With regards to the looks I see more Lelit that Silvia but hey lots of machines look alike so I won't hold that against them.

I am not a Kickstarter kinda guy but I will be following it with interest and I wish them every success.


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## InfamousTuba (Feb 5, 2020)

The flow meter is an interesting part, especially as decent removed their flow meter because they couldn't find one that was accurate enough without being far too expensive.

I do hope they can get the prototype into some other peoples hands maybe at some events when things are more relaxed, because kickstarter is always big risk especially when dealing with expensive products like this. As far as looks go it is a prototype so I don't mind the price, performance and reliability I would say are going to be key to how well it performs.

It is an interesting idea, still a bit rough around the edges in some regards but interesting to see where it goes


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Things seem to be changing with flow meters and commercial ones are not that expensive. Sage's problem is that they are before the OPV so can be plastic. Of late some higher pressure ones are appearing but still not 16bar. However measuring actual flow is likely to be different. What the usual type can do is be monitored and pulses indicate the flow of liquid and it's unlikely to be linear so if other aspects of brewing coffee are pretty constant they can work and cope with reasonable variations in prep.

Decent probably dropped it due to the flow rates the machine can brew at. This lot may find the same. The meters are full of liquid and sort of jet like arrangement where fluid goes in causes vanes to rotate. Those are counted. Our Morphy Richards hot water dispenser works they same way and delivers pretty accurate amounts. Flow rates into it's boiler are not slow.

There are other ways of measuring flow but coffee machines seem to stick with the vanes and other methods may have the same problem.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I'm looking with interest too.

- Price point: This will be the key, IMO.
- The machine has a boiler: Will be interesting if the software allows you to control the temperature at the group and how precise the temperature control is. Is the boiler just doing the bulk of the work and maybe there's a small heater or is it just a standard boiler/pid approach? (unlike the Decent, which has no boilers)
- Thermoblock steaming: I would be very interested in knowing how well this performs
- Software: Will the machine be able to be used if, for whichever reason, they go out of business? Is there any cloud nonsense involved for basic operation? Can the tablet be easily replaced, and can the app be downloaded to any standard vanilla/stock Android tablet?

Looks... Meh. If it is a great product, looks ok to me. It's a hybrid Gaggia Classic / Rancilio Silvia / Lelit Victoria kind of thing. 🙂


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The problem with thermo steam is well known - scale for obvious reasons. It works as many Sage owners know. Steam is steam.  Maybe a separate tank of triple distilled water would be the best answer but in real terms they can be descaled. On Sage it's done by running descaler through at brew settings as the same thermothingy is used.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

InfamousTuba said:


> I do hope they can get the prototype into some other peoples hands maybe at some events when things are more relaxed, because kickstarter is always big risk especially when dealing with expensive products like this. As far as looks go it is a prototype so I don't mind the price, performance and reliability I would say are going to be key to how well it performs.
> 
> It is an interesting idea, still a bit rough around the edges in some regards but interesting to see where it goes


 I'd love to get my hands on a prototype ... although I suspect that won't happen.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

ajohn said:


> Adding the buttons so that it can be used without a tablet is an interesting touch. Pity the gravimetric dosing is via scales on the drip tray but if an SBE can produce shots to better than 2ml  assuming people can persuade it to work as it can isn't that good enough? I'd assume the flow meter in this one can function more accurately than the SBE can.
> 
> As Dave mentions a touch screen is a touch screen - only so much can be done with them for this sort of use, or any other if mimicking a mouse is included. They mimic sliders, push buttons and knobs etc.
> 
> ...


 I actually don't think it will be nearly as expensive, unlike Decent who designed/made everything from scratch and uses allot of custom made parts, this more look like it uses of the shelf parts, tested and well known and used technology.

I think we might see this for approximately £2000-2500 . Although I hope for a chocker price under £2000 although That might be a little optimistic.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

malling said:


> I actually don't think it will be nearly as expensive, unlike Decent who designed/made everything from scratch and uses allot of custom made parts, this more look like it uses of the shelf parts, tested and well known and used technology.
> 
> I think we might see this for approximately £2000-2500 . Although I hope for a chocker price under £2000 although That might be a little optimistic.


 I think that would be a very tough sell at that price point personally. Not too long to find out!


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> I think that would be a very tough sell at that price point personally. Not too long to find out!


 Lets see, the cheapest Decent is at the moment listed at £2544 excl. shipping, Import duties and VAT. And then you have to wait months for it to arrive.

If they can sell it for approximately £2000 include import duties and VAT. I'm pretty certain they should have no problem selling it.

what other machines are there really that can do both pressure and flow profile in that price range. Most PP machine is in the excess of £2500 the only one that would be in the same ranger are either Levers or E61 with a manual valve on the brewhead.


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## InfamousTuba (Feb 5, 2020)

ajohn said:


> There are other ways of measuring flow but coffee machines seem to stick with the vanes and other methods may have the same problem.


 The issue decent had from this video (timestamped): 



 was that the accuracy wasn't good enough, +/- 15% so they use a physics model based on pump strokes that is +/- 3% accurate. I think getting accurate real time changes in flow rate so the pressure can be adjusted for flow profiles is important. I guess it also relies on how fast you can change the pressure that is being applied, if it will also be in the thousands of times per second that the decent manages

The machine would probably have to be less than 2k for sure, probably less for kickstarter backers. Most people would be happy with something like the bianca for £1850 instead with the bellabarista warranty and not having to wait one year or more for the production.

It has some good ideas and it could craft a niche in the market, as long as it doesn't meet any supply and demand issues like a lot of other products are struggling with


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## davril (Sep 17, 2012)

Gotta be sub 2k by quite a margin imo. Cool functionality but it does look like a budget espresso machine with an android tablet balanced on the top.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I'd suspect well sub 2k is possible especially if they sell direct. It's easy to overestimate the cost of the additional bits needed to do this sort of thing. Software seems to be a one man band.

Not all people are keen on what comes out with long flow time coffee brewing. Sure it can taste different. I've been messing with it. 15sec of drips. Limited to that because the machine can do it. Turns out that the taste and strength change actually occurs in the first 7. I haven't looked at what changes of that time and further pump power changes can do. In the same area I found that taste could scarcely change from a ratio of 1 to 2 to 3 on bean that would normally give a very very distinct one over that range. I could also do it E61 style but in a different way. TBH I don't think I will bother.

Supply and demand will always be a limitation in this area of coffee making. It is on existing machines - retailers sell out of them. All depends on how popular they are.


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

Dallah said:


> It looks like it fell from the top of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.


 Wow, poor guys, it's not their design, it's a AVX ( Hungarians) DB machine transformed with the software and the tablet I think. The guys are Spanish, I actually had spoke before with one of them a while ago asking if we could put a PID on my Silvia V6. The real machine it's like in the renders.


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

profesor_historia said:


> Wow, poor guys, it's not their design, it's a AVX ( Hungarians) DB machine transformed with the software and the tablet I think. The guys are Spanish, I actually had spoke before with one of them a while ago asking if we could put a PID on my Silvia V6. The real machine it's like in the renders.
> 
> View attachment 56779


 https://www.ecafe.es/tienda/cafeteras/901-cafetera-espresso-avx-em-db1.html


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Nothing wrong with taking something ad trying to make it better......happened in the car industry for years......


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

profesor_historia said:


> Wow, poor guys, it's not their design, it's a AVX ( Hungarians) DB machine transformed with the software and the tablet I think. The guys are Spanish, I actually had spoke before with one of them a while ago asking if we could put a PID on my Silvia V6. The real machine it's like in the renders.
> 
> View attachment 56779


 That changes things quite allot, can see it retail for £474 So it should be able to be had for under £900

Actually I thought they build it from scratch, but basically just took a cheap single boiler with a thermoblock for steaming.


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

The tablet design is virtually identical to the Insight skin as mentioned earlier. Just like Felicita / Acaia Lunar doesn't feel right.

The Decent inside was designed from the ground up , where the sensors go, how and what they measure. Not sure how bolting the software / sensors etc.. to an existing design will work as well but no doubt we'll see in a few weeks. Within the Decent app there re a number of skins that display the graphs and data differently. Seems lazy just to copy the app exactly.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The existing machine is just that, a case and some bits. They too will have to work out the same things that Decent did.

Actually to my mind making use of a current by the look of it well made chassis and case with a stainless boiler and thermoblock makes a lot of sense.


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## decent_espresso (Apr 5, 2016)

The machine appears to be this $255 Corrima, presumably modified so that it can talk to the tablet and other features they list.

Edit: the original alibaba link I posted seems to have died, but this manufacturer has many models they make and perhaps there's a new link for that model. Here is their catalog https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=638&SearchText=corrima

Ah found a new link for it https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/15-bar-Espresso-coffee-machine-CRM3007G_1600134136700.html


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

I think precisely zero machine manufacturers will be losing sleep over this.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The basic unit has a similar size and weight to the Gaggia Classic. It seems to have a 15bar boiler. Sales as a profiling machine I would say depends on the price it finishes up at  providing it works. There is no reason why it shouldn't really given the effort that may be needed. At say middling prosumer prices I would suspect it would gain some interest.

Where it may fail is why the PID Picino didn't work out. The espresso machine maker in this case thought that at the price they would need to sell it at no one would buy it. PID could only help so far on a machine like that anyway.


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## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

filthynines said:


> I think precisely zero machine manufacturers will be losing sleep over this.


 I agree, it's an interesting concept but it's neither new, nor pretty. I applaud the ingenuity but I wouldn't buy this.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

The base machine looks good, will be interesting to see what they've done internally and where/how they've added sensors.


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## Jomo04 (Mar 25, 2019)

decent_espresso said:


> The machine appears to be this $255 Corrima


 Is that Aussie dollars? That would be US$197 / £142 per unit.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Jomo04 said:


> Is that Aussie dollars? That would be US$197 / £142 per unit.


 It's £204.05 (2-49) and £185.83 (>50) at current exchange rate not including shipping etc. And no it's USD as you can see in the thumbnail but if you follow the link you can change the currency to whatever you want.


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## Giampiero (Mar 7, 2021)

decent_espresso said:


> The machine appears to be this $255 Corrima, presumably modified so that it can talk to the tablet and other features they list.
> 
> Edit: the original alibaba link I posted seems to have died, but this manufacturer has many models they make and perhaps there's a new link for that model. Here is their catalog https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=638&SearchText=corrima
> 
> ...


 As previously mentioned seems to be an AVX DB1......customized.


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## decent_espresso (Apr 5, 2016)

Giampiero said:


> As previously mentioned seems to be an AVX DB1......customized.


 You're free to make your own mind up, but to my eyes AVX is a reseller of many models https://www.avxcafe.hu/ from many companies, and they are not an espresso machine factory.

Whereas Corrima has a factory, and a video showing them making the espresso machines:

https://corrima.en.alibaba.com/?spm=a2700.shop_video.88.29

It can be quite hard to figure out who is a reseller and who is a factory, but my rule of thumb is that whoever is selling a given model by-far the cheapest, is the likely manufacturer.


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## Giampiero (Mar 7, 2021)

decent_espresso said:


> You're free to make your own mind up, but to my eyes AVX is a reseller of many models https://www.avxcafe.hu/ from many companies, and they are not an espresso machine factory.
> 
> Whereas Corrima has a factory, and a video showing them making the espresso machines:
> 
> ...


 You are right 100%.

My comment, in effect, was not clear at all, was not to contradict you.

Peace, love and coffee.☺


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Giampiero said:


> but to my eyes AVX is a reseller of many


 Actually better than some, lots of spares even for AVX.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

decent_espresso said:


> You're free to make your own mind up, but to my eyes AVX is a reseller of many models https://www.avxcafe.hu/ from many companies, and they are not an espresso machine factory.
> 
> Whereas Corrima has a factory, and a video showing them making the espresso machines:
> 
> ...


 So basically a machine in a price range we would not normally deem good enough. I have a hard time seeing this to remotely deliver what it says it can, the more I hear about the base machine the more it sounds like they just added bells and whistles and hoped people would jump for it.

Bit underwhelmed I must say, looks more and more like a classic kickstarter campaign. It would have been more interesting as a solution that could be added on already existing machines or as packaged deals that they would sell.


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## Endless River (Nov 12, 2014)

@malling your thoughts are based on what? I reckon I will wait for May 5th and see what's what before I pass public judgement


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

malling said:


> So basically a machine in a price range we would not normally deem good enough. I have a hard time seeing this to remotely deliver what it says it can, the more I hear about the base machine the more it sounds like they just added bells and whistles and hoped people would jump for it.
> 
> Bit underwhelmed I must say, looks more and more like a classic kickstarter campaign. It would have been more interesting as a solution that could be added on already existing machines or as packaged deals that they would sell.


 Not good enough for what and why?


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

Endless River said:


> @malling your thoughts are based on what? I reckon I will wait for May 5th and see what's what before I pass public judgement


 I never heard off or used a $2-300 pump machine that where actually capable at making drinkable espresso, more often then not it could hardly be described as espresso. I yet to see any indication something have changed, even though they can make it allot cheaper in China, even over there, there is a limit for how cheap they can make it and still make it work. I lived in asia, so I have seen my fair share of cheapies Chinese machines and counterfeit.

so unless they drastically changed the machine I have a hard time seeing it as functional machine.

but let's see where it lands.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

malling said:


> I never heard off or used a $2-300 pump machine that where actually capable at making drinkable espresso, more often then not it could hardly be described as espresso. I yet to see any indication something have changed, even though they can make it allot cheaper in China, even over there, there is a limit for how cheap they can make it and still make it work. I lived in asia, so I have seen my fair share of cheapies Chinese machines and counterfeit.
> 
> so unless they drastically changed the machine I have a hard time seeing it as functional machine.
> 
> but let's see where it lands.


 I think it's difficult to judge it entirely off price, especially if you're looking at wholesale prices from the factory. How much do you think a gaggia classic costs to make before the markups and middlemen?

It has a PID controlled 550ml SS boiler with ring group and programmable pre-infusion. That puts it above the Gaggia Classic in functionality and boiler size (and it has a thermocoil for steam instead of being SBDU). The Lelit Elizabeth would be comparable to the brewing side only without the service boiler and a slightly larger brew boiler. Judging it purely on specs there's no reason to think it wouldn't be a good machine assuming the group isn't made of plastic (it appears to be a normal brass 58mm ring group).


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## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> I think it's difficult to judge it entirely off price, especially if you're looking at wholesale prices from the factory. How much do you think a gaggia classic costs to make before the markups and middlemen?
> 
> It has a PID controlled 550ml SS boiler with ring group and programmable pre-infusion. That puts it above the Gaggia Classic in functionality and boiler size (and it has a thermocoil for steam instead of being SBDU). *The Lelit Elizabeth would be comparable to the brewing side only without the service boiler and a slightly larger brew boiler*. Judging it purely on specs there's no reason to think it wouldn't be a good machine assuming the group isn't made of plastic (it appears to be a normal brass 58mm ring group).


 I'd say that if you take the service boiler away that's not the Elizabeth anymore. To my eyes it's a Sage Bambino Plus on steroids - let's call it a Sage Teenager.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Speculation abounds.......what we do know, is the when people leap to diss one machine whist extolling the virtues of another, then presumably the arrow has hit home


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## Poyapo (Apr 25, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> Speculation abounds.......what we do know, is the when people leap to diss one machine whist extolling the virtues of another, then presumably the arrow has hit home


 Yeah I suppose if it's a forum sponsor especially.


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## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

I read on HB one user mentioning that the tablet is not included in the machine, rather just the app. Can anybody confirm?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Roko said:


> I'd say that if you take the service boiler away that's not the Elizabeth anymore. To my eyes it's a Sage Bambino Plus on steroids - let's call it a Sage Teenager.


 Crazy comparison. It's an alternative to Decent's machine full stop. Not a sensible view of Sage either. The Elizabeth can't be compared with it. The only machine that can be is the Decent one. Also the Vesuvius at £3,295 a go. I've no idea what a Decent machine costs by the time it gets to the UK.

Really all depends on the abilities of the people developing it and price when it's finally sold. It will either work as it should or wont. Basing it on an existing cheap but functional chassis should help a lot on price. As I see it another Decent wont sell any better than they do. Price always rules in the end. The other aspect is how busy they want to be and how and where the machines are built.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I always think it's difficult to judge anything without the detail. I've not been involved in the Kafmasino One, but I did get in near the ground floor with Niche testing. With any new product, there is always massive speculation, often a lot of it is incorrect. I actually had one for a long time before launch for testing and had to read all that speculation, without being to say a word.

Read that thread up to the Niche Indiegogo launch and you will see what I mean, probably one of the single most successful new coffee products in the last 3 years.....

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/36507-niche-grinder/?do=embed#comments

I'm playing the wait and see game with the Kafmasino One...because at the moment, there isn't enough detail to understand what is on offer...although at the right price, it looks interesting. There's no independent review, and when they launch I've no doubt there will be lots of questions.


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## Kafmasino (Mar 25, 2021)

Roko said:


> I read on HB one user mentioning that the tablet is not included in the machine, rather just the app. Can anybody confirm?


 All rewards include:

+ Kafmasino ONE
+ Kafmasino Scale BLE
+ Android Tablet 8 inches
+ 58mm bottomless filter holder
and
+ Blind rubber filter of 50mm
+ Cleaning brush
+ Tablet holder

*We want to give the customer something that is ready to go without further complications!*


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## Kafmasino (Mar 25, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I always think it's difficult to judge anything without the detail. I've not been involved in the Kafmasino One, but I did get in near the ground floor with Niche testing. With any new product, there is always massive speculation, often a lot of it is incorrect. I actually had one for a long time before launch for testing and had to read all that speculation, without being to say a word.
> 
> Read that thread up to the Niche Indiegogo launch and you will see what I mean, probably one of the single most successful new coffee products in the last 3 years.....
> 
> ...


 We are open to answer all your questions, we are uploading videos of the operation of the machine. We have a lot of things to show you!

Regarding independent reviews, unfortunately we do not have prototypes available to send. But we will be happy to show all unedited videos of the operation.

Once the Kickstarter is successfully funded and we have more budget, we will produce more test prototypes to provide to independent experts who are willing to give us feedback!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

ajohn said:


> let's call it a Sage Teenager.


 You mean, Sage Adolescente? 😉

The Banbino though is a very different design to the proposed machine here. I don't think it's a fair comparison. Quick Mill used to do a machine very similar to this, the Silvano. Brew boiler + steam thermoblock.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Kafmasino said:


> All rewards include:
> 
> + Kafmasino ONE
> + Kafmasino Scale BLE
> ...


 No tamper? This is one of the biggest oversights in my opinion. Ideally, customers would rather be able to turn the machine on and make coffee rather than by a separate tamper. A tamper which fits the basket nicely is always a great perk.

Will the machine come with a bottomless holder ONLY or is that in addition to a double spouted one?


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## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You mean, Sage Adolescente? 😉
> 
> The Banbino though is a very different design to the proposed machine here. I don't think it's a fair comparison. Quick Mill used to do a machine very similar to this, the Silvano. Brew boiler + steam thermoblock.


 Well not any less fair than the comparisons to the Elizabeth, which has two boilers. But I agree, the Silvano is the best match, thanks for letting me know of this model.

I think that it's not necessarily what somebody called "dissing", let's face the hard facts:

- it's a Kickstarter project, which means you're not really buying the product and you might end up losing your money, as with all Kickstarter projects

- the people responsible just posted that "unfortunately we do not have prototypes available to send." and "Once the Kickstarter is successfully funded and we have more budget, we will produce more test prototypes". I haven't seen the machine in the hands of anybody else.

So I'd say it's rather silly to call speculation as if it was bad, or even call it dissing. We're talking about pledging money on Kickstarter without the usual guarantees that one would get by buying from a retailer, to a machine that cannot have been tested as extensively as any other manufacturer would. From what I read on the forum, even ACS which has been in the coffee industry for such a long time, sends still machines for independent testing and I suppose they find flaws this way which then are corrected. And when you buy one of those machines, you're not pledging on Kickstarter.

So yeah, there's that. I don't think it's dissing, I wish them all the best, but people should be aware that they might either lose their money or end up beta testing a machine. Some might be super happy to do that since the Kafmasino will probably be very good value for money. Or maybe this will not happen and the machine will have ZERO faults from day one. It's inspiring to think that it might be the new Niche and be super successful, but for one Niche there's ninety-nine horror stories. Who knows.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You mean, Sage Adolescente? 😉
> 
> The Banbino though is a very different design to the proposed machine here. I don't think it's a fair comparison. Quick Mill used to do a machine very similar to this, the Silvano. Brew boiler + steam thermoblock.


 Don't know how I stated Sage Teenager because I didn't. This machine is nothing like a Sivano either. There are also some commercial machines about that use thermo steam rather than a boiler. I understand Decent do too.

Really thermo steam problems in some respects depend on water quality problems. Is this machine aimed at RO/Distilled water users or tap water. A commercial machine will be run via a filter. Sage machines are aimed at being used with tap water hence descale being easy on all of them. The new filter should make them even more suitable. Filters for espresso machines are never cheap if they can cope with a reasonable volume.

Maybe Kafmasino should think about controlled steam circuit descaling. Boiler may well need spanners but lots of machines do. Or fill with descaler and hope to flush it all out. Undoing something and syphoning it out is simpler.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

ajohn said:


> Don't know how I stated Sage Teenager because I didn't.


 Ha! Looks like we found a bug! I quoted Roko through the quote inside your post. I suppose the web UI is not that clever, which is understandable.

So, you are right: You didn't say anything about the Sage Teenager. It was @Roko. 👍


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Roko said:


> - the people responsible just posted that "unfortunately we do not have prototypes available to send." and "Once the Kickstarter is successfully funded and we have more budget, we will produce more test prototypes". I haven't seen the machine in the hands of anybody else


 This is what kickstarter is for and the vast majority of people are fully aware of what it means. Generally people who start one will have already spent time and money to get where they currently are.  We have to hope they have prototyped to an extent that say it will succeed. Niche was an interesting example, there has been others. People who get in early usually get a very hefty discount on the final price and yes they may loose it. Early models may get updated later as well as Niche did. Nothing serious really but some aspects changed. There were not many Niche prototypes around initially.

🤣 I suspect DaveC may be itching to get his hands on one of these or maybe not. It may not even be suitable for that yet. Part of the risk of backing it.

The interesting thing will be the kickstarter. Final price and backing price. Tricky one. Low backing price due to risk means more needed. Final price sets how many they are likely to sell. Niche managed an interesting final price. One that compared with the competition lots of people decide to afford. It more or less works flawlessly and people who bought cheaper are likely to aspire for one. The competition doesn't match up to it. It's way way cheaper than it's real competitors.

Maybe Kafmasino will be similar. Maybe they don't want to be.


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## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

I think I might be interested and I'm very curious, but I am not the biggest fan of Kickstarter, and will feel safer once things are up and running (even if it means paying a bit above the very attractive launch price). I don't know if the Kafmasino guys can share what the plans are for the future in this regard (ie will they keep selling on KS?)?


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