# Espresso deadspots / multiple stream issues (video)



## Jon V

I am still struggling quite with getting even extractions with my La Spaziale S1 Mini Vivaldi / Super Jolly setup. The even looking extractions almost always taste better so I want to improve this.

The video is with 16.7g in a double basket, 28g out:










 .

The photo shows the tamped basket. There is a fair amount of chaff resulting from the coarser grind needed. Not sure if this is a problem?

The bean I'm using at the moment requires a coarser grind than the previous couple I've had, and the finer grind seemed easier to get a good extraction from.

The most reliable method I've found is (single dosing) rapid thwacking of the doser trying to make an even cone in the basket. Then, lightly nutating and trying to tamp evenly. Any attempts to distribute in the basket with a finger or shaking only seems to make things worse.

Any help much appreciated!


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## stevenh

Seems to be a large deadspot in the middle and a few squirters... did you level the grounds before tamping?


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## ronsil

I found with the La Spaz your video result almost always was the fault of distribution.

After grinding into basket, I used a forefinger to spread the grinds & then with a chopping action made a Union Jack.

Only ever used a double basket & dependent on Beans dosed at either 18g or 20g.


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## jeebsy

What shape is the base of your tamper?


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## Obnic

I'm not sure nutating is helping. You appear to have higher volume/closer packed coffee in the centre of your PF or the nutation is disturbing the seal at the edge of the basket.

Nutation seems effective (for me) when done with no more that the weight of the tamper but even then I'm not a strong advocate.

Assuming its more coffee in the middle then, provided you are not dead-set against it, the WDT is an excellent way to fix distribution issues.

Forgive me for stating this if you know it already: Use a straightened paper clip taped to the end of a lolly stick or similar. Use circular overlapping stirrs (with a diameter of just less than the PF radius) (with the paper clip touching the bottom of the PF) around the inner circumference of the PF until you have the same depth of grounds everywhere. Tamp level or swipe to level then tamp (if you are overfilling the basket rather than weighing your dose).


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## garydyke1

video of the prep is often more useful than the end result


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## Mrboots2u

If the SJ is doserd then you shouldn't need to add paper clip WDT .

It's more likely more coffee in one bit of the PF than another


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## Mrboots2u

garydyke1 said:


> video of the prep is often more useful than the end result


Yep .............


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## Mrboots2u

If SJ is doserd more thwacking less paper clips


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## Jon V

ronsil said:


> I found with the La Spaz your video result almost always was the fault of distribution.
> 
> After grinding into basket, I used a forefinger to spread the grinds & then with a chopping action made a Union Jack.
> 
> Only ever used a double basket & dependent on Beans dosed at either 18g or 20g.


Thanks Ron, I think I get what you mean. Did you find the 53mm baskets presented their own issues compared to 58mm?


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## Jon V

jeebsy said:


> What shape is the base of your tamper?


Convex on this occasion. Have used flat also with similar results (ie sometimes very good, and sometimes not).


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## Jon V

Obnic said:


> I'm not sure nutating is helping. You appear to have higher volume/closer packed coffee in the centre of your PF or the nutation is disturbing the seal at the edge of the basket.
> 
> Nutation seems effective (for me) when done with no more that the weight of the tamper but even then I'm not a strong advocate.
> 
> Assuming its more coffee in the middle then, provided you are not dead-set against it, the WDT is an excellent way to fix distribution issues.
> 
> Forgive me for stating this if you know it already: Use a straightened paper clip taped to the end of a lolly stick or similar. Use circular overlapping stirrs (with a diameter of just less than the PF radius) (with the paper clip touching the bottom of the PF) around the inner circumference of the PF until you have the same depth of grounds everywhere. Tamp level or swipe to level then tamp (if you are overfilling the basket rather than weighing your dose).


Thanks for the suggestion. For some reason, WDT has always resulted in even worse pours for me (maybe doing it wrong).


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## ronsil

Jon V said:


> Did you find the 53mm baskets presented their own issues compared to 58mm?


No, in fact I found the 53mm baskets easier to distribute than the current 58mm I'm using with the Vesuvius.


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## Jon V

garydyke1 said:


> video of the prep is often more useful than the end result


Noted. I'll try to get one taken tomorrow.


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## Jon V

ronsil said:


> No, in fact I found the 53mm baskets easier to distribute than the current 58mm I'm using with the Vesuvius.


Where would you find the tamped dose came to (relative to the ridge) with the 18g / 20g fills?


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## Mrboots2u

Jon V said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. For some reason, WDT has always resulted in even worse pours for me (maybe doing it wrong).


Nope that can happen .

Doser plus WDT can't be self defeating sometimes


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## ronsil

The dose after finger chopping & lightly tamping used to come to the depth of the RB Tamper below the rim.


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## shrink

Mrboots2u said:


> If the SJ is doserd then you shouldn't need to add paper clip WDT .
> 
> It's more likely more coffee in one bit of the PF than another


Sorry I'm just not sure that the doser is the cure to all bad that you think it is.

My SJ is dosered with a schnozzola, cocktail shaker and clean sweep mod. I can thwack away like my life depends on it, but still end up with clumpy bits that result in some shocking extractions.

Maybe I need new burrs?


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## Mrboots2u

Depends what the shocking extractions look like to some degree.

Not all clumps are evil either

If the distribution isn't great , and by this I mean the same amount of coffee across the bed ( not where the fines are etc ) then that's not the doser at fault ,that's the barista ....

Stirring grinds with a paper clip won t help with the above

The above isn't in reference to John or shrinks extraction just general hypothesis....


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## Jon V

Mrboots2u said:


> Depends what the shocking extractions look like to some degree.
> 
> Not all clumps are evil either
> 
> If the distribution isn't great , and by this I mean the same amount of coffee across the bed ( not where the fines are etc ) then that's not the doser at fault ,that's the barista ....
> 
> The above isn't in reference to John or shrinks extraction just general hypothesis....


My grinds are pretty clump free (and any that there are break up easily).

The frustrating thing is that sometimes I appear to do nothing different and everything turns out great. This particular bean seems more difficult to work with somehow. Maybe related to it needing a coarser grind? Using the same setting as my previous bag choked the machine..


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## Thecatlinux

Try a lighter tamp, I had similar issues the other day and this improved things vastly, got to be worth a go.


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## Obnic

Mrboots2u said:


> Stirring grinds with a paper clip won t help with the above ....


Boots, I'm mindful of your credentials but I'm not sure I agree.

When I used a Mignon I used to deal with clumps by whisking in a mug. I'd use the paper clip stir expressly to move the grinds around the PF to get an even distribution prior to tamping. I used this technique (and special attention to fill around the PF edges) to cure doughnut pours. You need something fine though like a paper clip or dissection needle though to avoid any compression of the grounds. A cocktail stick simply creates holes.


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## jeebsy

I'm with Boots on this, less disruption the better


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## Mrboots2u

I have no credentials lol....







me just jibber jabber

I know no more than the next man and alot less than most

Mignion though is a clumpy beast

SJ through doser shouldn't be

I would agree with possibly WDT using a mignion but it shouldn't be needed with a a grinder with a doser ..

there's no harm in trying WDT at all the world won't stop spinning if the OP does , but adding extra sets to prep should be avoided it if can be ...


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## Thecatlinux

I have found Some roasts/beans are harder to work with than others, I am guessing the better the grinder the easier it may be, I have found through recent errors to go back to basics, keep things simple and don,t change to many variables all at once otherwise you will end up chasing your tail and going through lots of precious beans.


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## garydyke1

Going back to your original post ''There is a fair amount of chaff'' and you're struggling with this coffee more than others?

We do a fair amount of test roasts on a small roaster, the result is more chaff content than usual, often espresso is a little more tricky than roasts off the main bulk roasters. That said we dont use nakeds using these and have a very forgiving commercial machine - still tastes great tho.


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## shrink

I've found because my kit is near a window, that humidity seems to have a huge effect. If it's raining outside, shots are a nightmare


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## Jon V

garydyke1 said:


> Going back to your original post ''There is a fair amount of chaff'' and you're struggling with this coffee more than others?
> 
> We do a fair amount of test roasts on a small roaster, the result is more chaff content than usual, often espresso is a little more tricky than roasts off the main bulk roasters. That said we dont use nakeds using these and have a very forgiving commercial machine - still tastes great tho.


Interesting - This is in fact a test roast. I believe it used the same profile as the production roast but some difference may be caused by it being roasted in the smaller roaster? I had assumed it was just a side effect of it needing (for whatever reason) a coarser grind than previous beans.

Previous beans were Hasbean's Finca la Fany and pact's blend and the pours were generally much better with these.


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## Xpenno

I don't know the machine so please forgive me if I'm talking trash.

I used to get this on my Verona. Turned out not to be grinder, basket, shower screen, prep etc. It was the head space on the puck. From the picture it's hard to tell but it looks like the coffee is way down in the basket which may be OK for your machine (as I say I've never used one) but it might be worth checking. To check just drop a 2p coin on the puck after preparing it. Next lock it in the machine exactly like you would before a shot. Now take it back off. If the surface of the coffee puck is the correct height then the coin should have left the smallest of imprints in the surface. If it's pushed right in then there is to much coffee in the basket if there is no imprint then there is too little. To correct increase or decrease the dose until you get the bed to the correct level. You may find that you have to adjust the grind to compensate.

From my experiences if there is too little coffee then that puck over expands once the water hits it an easily fractures causing channels, wormholes and doughnuts. If there is too much in the basket then the puck had no room to expand and the water is forced through also causing the issues mentioned above. Another symptom for me was that the puck didn't knock out in one, it was a shocking mess every time.

As I say may not be related but it's easy to check and can make a big difference.


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## Xpenno

Its also worth noting that different beans compress differently depending on their density. For example in had some Kenyans earlier in the year that needed 18.5g where most beans required 19g.

It's also worth noting that my machine Wa s rotary pump with a quick ramp time, vibe pumps are more forgiving and also I am using vst baskets which are the business but can be a PITA!


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## garydyke1

Jon V said:


> Interesting - This is in fact a test roast. I believe it used the same profile as the production roast but some difference may be caused by it being roasted in the smaller roaster? I had assumed it was just a side effect of it needing (for whatever reason) a coarser grind than previous beans.
> 
> Previous beans were Hasbean's Finca la Fany and pact's blend and the pours were generally much better with these.


Do me a favour on this one - try going a touch finer, dont worry if the shot takes 30, 33, 35 seconds. Then report back


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## Jon V

garydyke1 said:


> Do me a favour on this one - try going a touch finer, dont worry if the shot takes 30, 33, 35 seconds. Then report back


I'm currently running at around 32-35 seconds. It was still tasting under-extracted at anything less (I put this down to the channeling). I will tighten the grind a bit and see how it is at ~40 secs as I suspect it'll taste ok still.

I'm about to pull a couple of shots now. Lots of good advice so far, but I'll start with the coin test and the finer grind and keep everything else the same for these.


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## Jon V

Xpenno said:


> I don't know the machine so please forgive me if I'm talking trash.
> 
> I used to get this on my Verona. Turned out not to be grinder, basket, shower screen, prep etc. It was the head space on the puck. From the picture it's hard to tell but it looks like the coffee is way down in the basket which may be OK for your machine (as I say I've never used one) but it might be worth checking. To check just drop a 2p coin on the puck after preparing it. Next lock it in the machine exactly like you would before a shot. Now take it back off. If the surface of the coffee puck is the correct height then the coin should have left the smallest of imprints in the surface. If it's pushed right in then there is to much coffee in the basket if there is no imprint then there is too little. To correct increase or decrease the dose until you get the bed to the correct level. You may find that you have to adjust the grind to compensate.


Just tried this. The coin did not leave an imprint. Rather than change the dose, I put on the thicker dispersion block which reduces the headspace by about 2mm. This caused the coin to imprint fully, so I'm guessing I was in the right area with the thinner block..


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## Jon V

Jon V said:


> I'm currently running at around 32-35 seconds. It was still tasting under-extracted at anything less (I put this down to the channeling). I will tighten the grind a bit and see how it is at ~40 secs as I suspect it'll taste ok still.


I tightened the grind, but for whatever reason the shot ran quicker than yesterday's so I'm none the wiser. I'll go tighter again later. I have about 3 shots left from this bag remaining so not much chance for experimentation left.


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## froggystyle

If its running faster on a tighter grind then it must be down to your prep/tamp.... or something radical is happening with the beans, are they stored in the hopper or in the bag they were supplied in?


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## Jon V

froggystyle said:


> If its running faster on a tighter grind then it must be down to your prep/tamp.... or something radical is happening with the beans, are they stored in the hopper or in the bag they were supplied in?


It's possible I tamped a bit lighter. Beans are in the one way valve bag. I find shots usually run in the same time from day to day assuming the same settings.


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## froggystyle

Work on your tamp then...

What you could try is taking it a little finer and tamp lightly, i find tamping lightly is easier when trying to remain consistent.


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## Jon V

garydyke1 said:


> Do me a favour on this one - try going a touch finer, dont worry if the shot takes 30, 33, 35 seconds. Then report back


As I was already at 34 seconds, I've just done 16.7g > 28g in 41 seconds. The pour was much better and the espresso tasted just a bit over extracted. Almost fine in milk but a slight burnt aftertaste.

Any theories why this bean would need to be extracted over such a long time?


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## froggystyle

What bean is it?


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