# Shot timing.



## Coffee_Chemistry (Jan 3, 2016)

Hey,

When do you guys start the timer for your shots? As soon as you lift the lever, or after the pre infusion is done and the gauge ramps up to 9bar?

I guess it doesn't matter as long as its kept consistent but it would be nice to relate it to other machines shot times that don't have a pre infusion built in.

Cheers!


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Hit the timer start button as soon as the lever is lifted.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

AFAIK on E61 or I suppose any pump machine it's timed from pump on to pump off (or lever up to lever down in the case of e61 lever operated pump machines). At least, that's what I've been doing!


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Me too, like you stated not an issue as long as you start the timer on the same function


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## holgr (Aug 17, 2017)

Hi,

with the Brewuts E61 group, you should start the timer when full pressure is reached. Everyhing before that is preinfusion.

You have to measure the pressure directly at the group, the built-in gauges are not very accurate. When I have a pressure of 9,5 bar at the group, the gauge shows 11 bars.

Best regards,

holgr



Coffee_Chemistry said:


> Hey,
> 
> When do you guys start the timer for your shots? As soon as you lift the lever, or after the pre infusion is done and the gauge ramps up to 9bar?
> 
> ...


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## mfsl (Jun 22, 2016)

When the coffee start dripping, sometimes few seconds after the pump is on.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

This confused me initially as my BE does have infusion - runs the pump at a low pressure initially. Depending on strength required, fill and grind etc little or nothing can come out of the portafilter. Time from when it starts to flow. Initially I thought it should be from when the pump starts which didn't show any pressure at all.

However nothing is cast in stone - the aim is a drink that will be enjoyed.








A single shot should be 30ml too and a double 60ml. As most people see that in and out weight are the important aspect it would make more sense to use that to control what comes out. The time taken could vary widely due to the strength of extraction that is needed. My machine has timed extractions but I use the volume produced to control minor variations in the grind settings that are needed from time to time. The grinder is the biggest variable in the chain, even so it surprises me just how consistent they can be. Drinking out of glass helps as the volume variations can be seen.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> This confused me initially as my BE does have infusion - runs the pump at a low pressure initially. Depending on strength required, fill and grind etc little or nothing can come out of the portafilter. Time from when it starts to flow. Initially I thought it should be from when the pump starts which didn't show any pressure at all.
> 
> However nothing is cast in stone - the aim is a drink that will be enjoyed.
> 
> ...


Timing when the pumps starts helps to set a common language , so people can adjust and help when needed , using that common language. Plus it's when the coffee starts extracting as that is when water hits it , irrespective of pre infusion or not .

Otherwise it's like going to a shop and trying to pay in a currency thats base 8 .. only you really know what your on about . If you are happy with your coffee and don;t need help then time how you want. If you are trying to help people adjust and get to tasty .. then using recipes that timed differently isn't helpful.

A single/double shot should be whats tasty not 30 ml not 60 ml, not 1:2 by weight, not 30 seconds.

All that happens when people give out absolutes is that people make disappointing coffee by numbers , add some milk and repeat.

Consistent measures to adjust is what's key especially early on in making coffee.

Weight/ volume and time are measures to help adjust to get to tasty not what tasty is ( either volume or weight ) .


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## tobyjrn6 (Dec 22, 2016)

Sorry to beat a dead horse on this one but i think an important question on the topic and one im struggling with a little: How do we think shot times compare between the brewtus with its 'pre-infusion chamber' (particularly with vibe pump that takes a while to ramp up anyway) vs say a commercial rotary machine which any given brew recipe is likely to be formulated on? Surely the ~ 5-8s of pre infusion time is going to give a slightly different total output time when compared with constant 9 bar pressure. If anyone has any experience in calibrating this one id be v grateful


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tobyjrn6 said:


> Sorry to beat a dead horse on this one but i think an important question on the topic and one im struggling with a little: How do we think shot times compare between the brewtus with its 'pre-infusion chamber' (particularly with vibe pump that takes a while to ramp up anyway) vs say a commercial rotary machine which any given brew recipe is likely to be formulated on? Surely the ~ 5-8s of pre infusion time is going to give a slightly different total output time when compared with constant 9 bar pressure. If anyone has any experience in calibrating this one id be v grateful


The grind will be different between the 2 scenarios. +/- 5s we might be taking the same level of extraction for the same brew ratio & grind.

Time from a tangible start, stop of the pump. Everything else requires a leap of faith/allowing for unknown variables.


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## tobyjrn6 (Dec 22, 2016)

MWJB said:


> The grind will be different between the 2 scenarios. +/- 5s we might be taking the same level of extraction for the same brew ratio & grind.
> 
> Time from a tangible start, stop of the pump. Everything else requires a leap of faith/allowing for unknown variables.


That's kind of what I was thinking, presumably if timing from start of water flow (say a second after lever up) then youd be looking at a few extra seconds on your total shot time given the slower pre-infusion period. Just wondering is anyone has had any luck getting a more quantitative time guideline they follow so that I can get some consistency to my timings.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tobyjrn6 said:


> That's kind of what I was thinking, presumably if timing from start of water flow (say a second after lever up) then youd be looking at a few extra seconds on your total shot time given the slower pre-infusion period. Just wondering is anyone has had any luck getting a more quantitative time guideline they follow so that I can get some consistency to my timings.


Consistency should be based on flavour balance, absolute consistency in timings will lead to bigger variations in extraction & flavour balance.

Preinfusion often leads to faster flow, over no prinfusion, so it's swings & roundabouts. If you were switch between scenarios, you'd still check consistency via grind setting & flavour balance & it could be perfectly OK for times to wander (either from one machine to another, or for shots of different coffee on the same machine).


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## tobyjrn6 (Dec 22, 2016)

No sure i'm with you on all of that. I more meant given the same bean, dose, brew ratio and temp, obviously varying grind - do you have any experience with what sort of time discrepancy (if any, some prior reading and 'swings and roundabouts' suggests maybe not) one might expect for optimal extraction between the two setups. I.e. how much your optimal extraction time might deviate from one quoted in an optimal brew recipe provided by your roaster.

I'm only putting such a fine point on it because when im a long way off its easy to taste an obvious sour or bitter as a result of under or overextraction but when i get really close it feels more like guess work as to whats actually off (probably on account of the palate not being up to scratch), so if i know which side of under or over im likely to be leaning as a result of the pre-infusion situation it should be easier to dial in to optimal without wasting loads of coffee.

Cheers for all the advice by the way.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tobyjrn6 said:


> I'm only putting such a fine point on it because when im a long way off its easy to taste an obvious sour or bitter as a result of under or overextraction but when i get really close it feels more like guess work as to whats actually off (probably on account of the palate not being up to scratch), so if i know which side of under or over im likely to be leaning as a result of the pre-infusion situation it should be easier to dial in to optimal without wasting loads of coffee.
> 
> Cheers for all the advice by the way.


At the same grind setting, bean, temp & brew ratio, consistent prep you are not likely to be sweeping from under-extracted to over-extracted...even with 5-6s difference in shot time. Shot time isn't a good enough indicator of extraction. It might well be that your bitterness could be caused by something other than over-extraction.

What's your start point for dialling in?


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## tobyjrn6 (Dec 22, 2016)

MWJB said:


> At the same grind setting, bean, temp & brew ratio, consistent prep you are not likely to be sweeping from under-extracted to over-extracted...even with 5-6s difference in shot time. Shot time isn't a good enough indicator of extraction. It might well be that your bitterness could be caused by something other than over-extraction.
> 
> What's your start point for dialling in?


Sorry I meant to say under/over extraction *when dialling in, and actually all of the above is with respect to properly dialling a bean in. And I go by weight in and out, with time as a guideline for extraction so its just a case of wanting a more realistic guideline to work from than the one provided by the roaster, given the variations in our kit if that makes sense.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tobyjrn6 said:


> Sorry I meant to say under/over extraction *when dialling in, and actually all of the above is with respect to properly dialling a bean in. And I go by weight in and out, with time as a guideline for extraction so its just a case of wanting a more realistic guideline to work from than the one provided by the roaster, given the variations in our kit if that makes sense.


Roasters usually give a ratio (strength) & time. The variations in kit are more likely to manifest themselves in limitations of brew ratio than time.

what are the guidelines for, say, the last few bags of beans you had?


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## tobyjrn6 (Dec 22, 2016)

Ive just polished off a bag of signature from rave which was just over 2:1 in 27-32s i believe and now onto their sumatra super gayo which wants about 1.75:1 in 25-27. So i'm dosing 18.5g into a vst 18g (using wdt) and adjusting my grind to hit that brew ratio within that time frame and while theyre good shots by all means I feel like theres more that I can get out of them having tasted a few 'god shots' in the past


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've tried all sorts. The machine does timed shots. I've found that the thing that needs to be most consistent is the weight of the grinds in the filter basket. The grinder has a timer as well so that needs some method of detecting changes in the weight it produces before there is a noticeable change in taste.

I generally don't worry about what the ratio actually ends up being more the taste of the drink that it produces. The drink I finish up with gets a pretty consistent quantity of water added but I do vary the milk a bit at times depending on the bean.

I have tried altering the shot timer but eventually set it back to the default the machine comes set to.

One area I haven't really looked at is what happens if I get a really short shot in that time due to grind settings. I can tell pretty closely because of the glass mugs I use. I have wondered what would happen if I extended the time but when this gets really noticeable most of the water coming out of the pump is going out of the OPV and into the drip tray. Taste wise drinks made like that have a tendency to all taste the same irrespective of the bean. Not too good either. On that score I often find myself balancing getting some pre infusion pressure and maybe some flow out of the OPV. If I then measure the ratio it's generally around 1 to 2.2 or so depending on the bean.

To be honest I feel that the whole thing has to be done on taste.

John

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## tobyjrn6 (Dec 22, 2016)

ajohn said:


> I've tried all sorts. The machine does timed shots. I've found that the thing that needs to be most consistent is the weight of the grinds in the filter basket. The grinder has a timer as well so that needs some method of detecting changes in the weight it produces before there is a noticeable change in taste.
> 
> I generally don't worry about what the ratio actually ends up being more the taste of the drink that it produces. The drink I finish up with gets a pretty consistent quantity of water added but I do vary the milk a bit at times depending on the bean.
> 
> ...


That sort of makes sense when using a machine with a pre determined extraction time but when youre operating the pump start and finish i find there are too many variables to approach it in the same way. also when drinking straight espresso brew ratios are pretty paramount


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tobyjrn6 said:


> Ive just polished off a bag of signature from rave which was just over 2:1 in 27-32s i believe and now onto their sumatra super gayo which wants about 1.75:1 in 25-27. So i'm dosing 18.5g into a vst 18g (using wdt) and adjusting my grind to hit that brew ratio within that time frame and while theyre good shots by all means I feel like theres more that I can get out of them having tasted a few 'god shots' in the past


Try pulling them a bit longer, 1:2.5 or 1:3.


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## tobyjrn6 (Dec 22, 2016)

im not sure that really helps at all with my query but thanks for the advice anyway.

Toby


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tobyjrn6 said:


> im not sure that really helps at all with my query but thanks for the advice anyway.
> 
> Toby


25 to 32 seconds (29s +/-3 or 4s) doesn't necessarily signify different extractions. Going longer on the ratio (in a similar time frame) will increase extraction at a useable grind setting.

Ask yourself what percentage of your shots at the shorter ratios were "god shots", how many times did you start at those ratios & timings & think, 'bang on, or just a little tweak'? If not very often, then it may be the short ratios that are the issue, rather than a second here or there.


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> 25 to 32 seconds (29s +/-3 or 4s) doesn't necessarily signify different extractions. Going longer on the ratio (in a similar time frame) will increase extraction at a useable grind setting.
> 
> Ask yourself what percentage of your shots at the shorter ratios were "god shots", how many times did you start at those ratios & timings & think, 'bang on, or just a little tweak'? If not very often, then it may be the short ratios that are the issue, rather than a second here or there.


I think this post on Barista Hustle nicely illustrates what you're saying @MWJB *https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista-hustle/diy-extraction-tasting* and the embedded article within it on how to taste the differences in extraction is really helpful *https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista-hustle/coffee-extraction-and-how-to-taste-it*


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

salty said:


> I think this post on Barista Hustle nicely illustrates what you're saying @MWJB *https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista-hustle/diy-extraction-tasting* and the embedded article within it on how to taste the differences in extraction is really helpful *https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista-hustle/coffee-extraction-and-how-to-taste-it*


And this *https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista-hustle/espresso-recipes-understanding-yield*


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Real world example of MWJBs earlier point:

Yesterday I made 2 drinks from the same bean - everything the same ie grind, dose etc. My machine is plumbed in e61

First one I just pulled as normal. Reached my target weight in about 36 seconds.

Second one I did 8 seconds of line pressure pre-infusion and then completed the rest of the pull with the pump on. This reached target weight in 33 seconds.

On both started timing soon as I touched the lever ie it included the infusion time on the second shot. So pre infusion speeded up the flow on the second shot so much it still reached target weight in less time than first shot!

I find this is common


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

kennyboy993 said:


> Real world example of MWJBs earlier point:
> 
> Yesterday I made 2 drinks from the same bean - everything the same ie grind, dose etc. My machine is plumbed in e61
> 
> ...


Which shot did you prefer?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I couldn't discern any difference ;-)


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> Second one I did 8 seconds of line pressure pre-infusion and then completed the rest of the pull with the pump on. This reached target weight in 33 seconds.


When you say line pressure do you mean the mid-point on the lever?

Do you do that often? Does it only work with a plumbed in machine?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Yeah that's right img - just before pump is on, mid point.

Only works on plumbed in machines - I have my line pressure set about 2 bar.

I do it very rarely as I can't detect a difference and it's a bit of a faff and it makes the rest of the pull a bit fast often.

However I do occasionally when I have a super-fine grind (decaf) and very careful prep but still get some channeling - it does help with this.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

tobyjrn6 said:


> That sort of makes sense when using a machine with a pre determined extraction time but when youre operating the pump start and finish i find there are too many variables to approach it in the same way. also when drinking straight espresso brew ratios are pretty paramount


One thing I have noticed about shot time is that extending it can smooth out the taste of the coffee without wrecking it. That might even include going as far as doubling the usual one.

If people are going to time I think things can get complicated. I mostly use a Sage Barista Express. Low pressure infusion stage for 10 secs. it takes a few secs for water to get to the grounds. Those are probably pretty consistent. The catch comes when I am looking at the pressure gauge. It doesn't show bar but I assume the ticks on the dial are bar. There might be no output until the gauge shows 2.5 bar, well into the 10 secs. Some one reported 11 secs to flow on the version without the pressure gauge or an OPV. Their pipes when flow starts might not be as empty as mine. Still has pre infusion though.

I also have a Piccino. Flow starts pretty quickly. The initial flow is much darker than the BE which indicates to me that the water temperature is will over 93C at the start of a shot. I make sure that the portafilter and the shower screen bits and pieces are up to temperature and flush the machine a bit before grinding and tamping to ensure the water is close to the upper limit of the thermostat.

The point I'm making really is that there is unlikely to be a shot time that suites both machines. One has preconditioned the grounds and the other has use hotter water to do the same sort of thing.. Actually the hot water method for the same load of coffee gives a weaker drink. I could probably grind finer on the Piccino. Then there is the bean itself. People need to sort out the lot for themselves, grind, fill and shot time that suites their bean, machine and taste. Also the filter baskets that they can use. Things are a bit sad in that area for people that don't drink milk based and like dark roasted stronger beans. I suspect what ever they like actually. The shot time just needs to be measured from something consistent. My machine timed 30 sec for singles and 60 for doubles has been dead consistent for me providing that the other aspects have been kept constant. On my favourite bean I use the double shot through 9.3g of grinds. I have tried all of the options and that's the one that suites me. The bean still retains it's taste but is a bit stronger than if I had used the single. If I had a basket that topped out at notional 12g rather than 10 I'd probably do something different. I've now found a modified 14g that can fit and is still just about usable in my sense with 12 in it. Too much for my favourite bean. I've discounted lighter roasts of the same bean in the past on strength but will be trying them again in the 14g. I've only had the 14g for a couple of weeks and haven't yet tried dropping off the period before flow starts. There's not that much range in grinder settings before it's more or less instantaneous though - bad news on every bean I have tried in the 10g basket. That area is the one that has the most control of taste. Probably true of all machines. There is a Jampit drinker who discards the first 6 secs of flow. I used the lot on that bean.








One comment in that might cause some one to say grind finer. I could but 2 or 3 times the water going through the portafilter would be going out of the OPV. For me that generally hasn't done anything positive for the bean.

John

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## tobyjrn6 (Dec 22, 2016)

kennyboy993 said:


> Real world example of MWJBs earlier point:
> 
> Yesterday I made 2 drinks from the same bean - everything the same ie grind, dose etc. My machine is plumbed in e61
> 
> ...


So this is basically all I was wondering when i asked before, thanks!

I agree with what MWJB has suggested, I have seen these articles and watched quite a good vid on brew recipes and troubleshooting with the same extraction-strength curve used and yield is something i've planned on messing with when i fully get to grips with the new machine.

Problem is i do tend to prefer my shots strong with can bottleneck me a bit; i dont think i'd ever go much over a 1:2.5, particularly for a slightly darker roast like this sumatran. As i understand it this means my other variables need to be more precise to get the highest extraction possible - hence the reason for my asking the original q haha

Cheers everyone for the help, i may go ahead and try that 7 shot test at some point soon


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## tobyjrn6 (Dec 22, 2016)

the vid im on about


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## holgr (Aug 17, 2017)

tobyjrn6 said:


> Sorry to beat a dead horse on this one but i think an important question on the topic and one im struggling with a little: How do we think shot times compare between the brewtus with its 'pre-infusion chamber' (particularly with vibe pump that takes a while to ramp up anyway) vs say a commercial rotary machine which any given brew recipe is likely to be formulated on? Surely the ~ 5-8s of pre infusion time is going to give a slightly different total output time when compared with constant 9 bar pressure. If anyone has any experience in calibrating this one id be v grateful


Hi tobyjrn6,

the Brewtus and all manual E61 groups have a built-in preinfusion chamber, which is filled before the hot water hits the coffee poweder. Espresso machines such as the Vesuvius and the R60 are supposed to have modified E61 groups, so that pre-infusion is nearly disabled. This is not the case with E61 groups, who are operated by a solenoid valve. So I really wonder why the creators of the Vesuvius and R60 did not choose to use the latter.

Preinfusion is not related to the type of pump built into a machine. The Vesuvius uses a gear pumpt while the R60 uses a rotary pumpt. However, pressure profiling can also be realised with a vibra pump and, for instance, a dimmer (some forum members have already experimented with that).

The only reason why a rotary pump may be more suited for regulating preinfusion is that you have the line pressure with a plumped-in machine to realise preinfusion.

holgr


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

E61 pre-infusion is very different to the features provided by, say, Vesuvius.

And with a rotary, plumbed in e61 the ramp up is very fast - and in my opinion arguably not quite pre-infusion in the way many people think of it. It's all over in about 1 second on my machine for example


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

More like 'anti shock' as Dave puts it - a better description I think.


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## tobyjrn6 (Dec 22, 2016)

holgr said:


> Hi tobyjrn6,
> 
> the Brewtus and all manual E61 groups have a built-in preinfusion chamber, which is filled before the hot water hits the coffee poweder. Espresso machines such as the Vesuvius and the R60 are supposed to have modified E61 groups, so that pre-infusion is nearly disabled. This is not the case with E61 groups, who are operated by a solenoid valve. So I really wonder why the creators of the Vesuvius and R60 did not choose to use the latter.
> 
> ...


I know, my point was more that you have an unavoidable period of time when there is water making contact with coffee, essentially preinfusing (but out of your control, unlike with the r60 and vesuvius which i assume prevent this on purpose to give you full control over pressure/flow rate from start to finish).

As a result i wasnt sure how this 'preinfusion' and pressure ramp up time would affect total shot time.

Also i was under the impression that water hits the coffee and the preinfusion chamber fills up as a result of the back pressure, is that not the case??


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## Halimsahlan (May 4, 2018)

When I pull the lever.. I'll get abt 27 to 30 secs for a 2oz shot at ard 9 to 9.5 bar pressure


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