# Frozen beans don't taste right



## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

I've noticed this (and so has my sister) with a few beans now. I ordered a few kilo bags of particular beans that we both liked, using the first 250g as soon as the resting period was over (and vacuum freezing the remaining amount - in 3 x 250g).

This has now been consistent with 4 different beans where the notes coming from a bag taken from the vacuum sealed frozen pack, don't seem to match the beans that were used fresh after the resting period was over. It's not that the beans are nasty, but each of the 4 different coffees have been a much muted version compared to the non frozen version of itself.

Anyone else noticed this?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What's your process.

Are you resting then freezing..

Freezing straight away?

Are you grinding straight out of freezer or letting defrost.

Are you adjusting recipe post frozen.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

Resting then freezing.

Grinding straight out of the freezer for the first coffee out of the bag, and then the rest of the bag is kept in an airtight container for the remainder of the 250g.

Not adjusting recipe post frozen. I didn't realise this had to be done? What's the script here?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Once the beans are out of the freezer & the vac pack, they will deteriorate quickly.

Can you not vac pack in individual doses or a small amount that you might use in a day?


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Dr Forinor said:


> Not adjusting recipe post frozen. I didn't realise this had to be done? What's the script here?


Unfortunately, the freezer doesn't freeze time (I wish time travelling was a thing, too), so things still happen to beans.

Try dialling in the defrosted beans as if they are new to you and see what happens.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

MWJB said:


> Once the beans are out of the freezer & the vac pack, they will deteriorate quickly.
> 
> Can you not vac pack in individual doses or a small amount that you might use in a day?


I would be using 30-35g per day - at the most. Any suggestions how to do this? (that's a genuine question)



PPapa said:


> Unfortunately, the freezer doesn't freeze time (I wish time travelling was a thing, too), so things still happen to beans.
> 
> Try dialling in the defrosted beans as if they are new to you and see what happens.


Oooohhhh, I thought because it was vacuum sealed and frozen, that effectively time was also frozen as far as the beans were concerned. Obviously I have misunderstood.

Dialling in, I am assuming you would go need to finer than usual, as a general rule?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dr Forinor said:


> I would be using 30-35g per day - at the most. Any suggestions how to do this? (that's a genuine question)
> 
> Oooohhhh, I thought because it was vacuum sealed and frozen, that effectively time was also frozen as far as the beans were concerned. Obviously I have misunderstood.
> 
> Dialling in, I am assuming you would go need to finer than usual, as a general rule?


Frozen beans from frozen shatter, grind differently. According to perger, produce more fines. Which according to perger is a good thing. All this of course is grinder dependent.

Short answer - adjust recipe, freeze smaller batches


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## caffn8me (Feb 19, 2019)

Dr Forinor said:


> I would be using 30-35g per day - at the most. Any suggestions how to do this? (that's a genuine question)


Take the amount of beans you need each day out of the freezer and transfer to an airtight container to allow them to defrost. When the container is empty at the end of the day, put some more beans in and they'll be defrosted by the time you need them.

Freezing does help to slow down both degassing and oxidation. There's a really interesting lecture on the effect of degassing and freezing on coffee beans which was given at a Coffee Roasters Guild conference; [Linky]


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## caffn8me (Feb 19, 2019)

PPapa said:


> Unfortunately, the freezer doesn't freeze time (I wish time travelling was a thing, too), so things still happen to beans.


As a general rule of thumb, chemical processes halve in reaction speed for each 10C the temperature reduces. If room temperature is 20C and the freezer is -20C, chemical processes adversely affecting bean freshness will take sixteen times as long in the freezer compared to room temperature. Degassing is considerably slowed at freezer temperatures too. See my previous link.


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

I stoped freezing beans ages ago.

Just the same as you, I found they didn't taste as good as the non frozen.

for the record, I'm talking about freezing half a kilo of a kilo bag and starting on the frozen beans as soon as the first non frozen 500g was used up.

i can only describe them as tasting "thin" in comparison, and were dialled in just as I would for any bean.

so I don't bother to freeze beans anymore. I just put them (still in their opened packet) into a Tupperware box and put them in my larder


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## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Frozen beans from frozen shatter, grind differently. According to perger, produce more fines. Which according to perger is a good thing. All this of course is grinder dependent.
> 
> Short answer - adjust recipe, freeze smaller batches


My practice is to dose frozen beans directly from the container in the freezer, and to grind them slightly coarser on the grounds that frozen beans shatter more and thus produce more fines (see Perger). Occasionally, I take a ~125g preserving jar directly from the freezer and let the beans warm up before I use them over a few days.


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

After resting, I weigh out individual doses and freeze those in individual containers...

and then grind direct from frozen...

I've never noticed any taste difference... all dialling in done from frozen beans!


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## martinierius (Sep 28, 2014)

With new beans I first let them rest a few days. Then I determine dose and freeze individual portions in mini jars.

I take one such portion out of freezer, grind frozen and change grinder settings when necessary.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

Thanks for all the replies everyone, I'll adjust and see how I get on.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

You might find this helpful

https://coffeeadastra.com/2019/03/26/some-strategies-to-keep-your-coffee-fresh/


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I know this might seem like a wild out there suggestion. Have you tried just using up the bag without freezing at all. Still split it into 4x 250g bags and put in an airtight tupperware but just use them up over about a month or so. Does this taste significantly worse than freezing?

I get through about 1kg in a month so maybe I'm using more than you but it seems like there a greater risk in freezing and getting it wrong than just using it up over time. I remember reading about how freezing is really bad for coffee because the cold temps mean that moisture forms on the beans as soon as you bring them out.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

chimpsinties said:


> I know this might seem like a wild out there suggestion. Have you tried just using up the bag without freezing at all. Still split it into 4x 250g bags and put in an airtight tupperware but just use them up over about a month or so. Does this taste significantly worse than freezing?
> 
> I get through about 1kg in a month so maybe I'm using more than you but it seems like there a greater risk in freezing and getting it wrong than just using it up over time. I remember reading about how freezing is really bad for coffee because the cold temps mean that moisture forms on the beans as soon as you bring them out.


Unfortunately I am down to 1-2 cups a day, of 14g doses, so that would take me forever to get through.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Dr Forinor said:


> Resting then freezing.
> 
> Grinding straight out of the freezer for the first coffee out of the bag, and then the rest of the bag is kept in an airtight container for the remainder of the 250g.
> 
> Not adjusting recipe post frozen. I didn't realise this had to be done? What's the script here?


Try defrosting fully before opening the bag. Opening while frozen may be introducing moisture whixh won't help.


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## paul whu (Sep 25, 2014)

I have my suspicions about freezing anything. I might try it purely as an experiment. I really have my doubts. Meat and veg lose their edge so I can't shine why coffe would be different. I'll vacuum pack and freeze 100 grams tomorrow and find out for myself. I have my reservations (or bias) but will open my mind


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

I didn't notice "frozen" beans (misleading term - they're not frozen, just colder) grinding differently based on tests with a Kruve. It's normal bean flavours change as it oxidises though.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

paul whu said:


> I have my suspicions about freezing anything. I might try it purely as an experiment. I really have my doubts. Meat and veg lose their edge so I can't shine why coffe would be different. I'll vacuum pack and freeze 100 grams tomorrow and find out for myself. I have my reservations (or bias) but will open my mind


What's the experiment gonna be , use the coffee two weeks later versus some that wasn't frozen ?


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## caffn8me (Feb 19, 2019)

paul whu said:


> I have my suspicions about freezing anything. I might try it purely as an experiment. I really have my doubts. Meat and veg lose their edge so I can't shine why coffe would be different.


Meat and veg change in the freezer because they have a high water content. Ice crystals form and expand and that action breaks down the cell structure of the meat/vegetables. That doesn't happen with roasted coffee beans because they have practically zero water content.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

caffn8me said:


> Meat and veg change in the freezer because they have a high water content. Ice crystals form and expand and that action breaks down the cell structure of the meat/vegetables. That doesn't happen with roasted coffee beans because they have practically zero water content.


This was my thoughts too, surely they cannot change as the cell structure is unlikely to be damaged, been freezing beans for ages, I partially de-gass then freeze, remove and let the de-gassing process finish then use. May be because I only drink milk based drinks that I do not taste any difference though.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

caffn8me said:


> Meat and veg change in the freezer because they have a high water content. Ice crystals form and expand and that action breaks down the cell structure of the meat/vegetables. That doesn't happen with roasted coffee beans because they have practically zero water content.


Allowing water vapour to condense on the beans during defrosting will have more effect. Hence people taping up the 1 way valve if freezing in the bag.


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## caffn8me (Feb 19, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> Allowing water vapour to condense on the beans during defrosting will have more effect. Hence people taping up the 1 way valve if freezing in the bag.


I transfer a single dose immediately from the freezer to a small airtight container to defrost so condensation is minimal. I only defrost a dose or two at a time.

My beans are kept in the freezer in an airtight container too. I don't think I have a huge problem with condensation on beans.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

UPDATE:

I took a vacuum sealed bag out of the freezer, didn't open it, let it defrost overnight and then had a coffee the next day. Much better results using this method. Still not as perfect as when fully rested and freshly made, but much much closer than what I was getting previously.Whilst I still can taste a difference, with this method in mind the freezing has become a viable option once again.Thanks for all your help people.


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