# V60. Is it just me?



## Rupert

Let's say I use the V60 brewing method.

Equipment:

V60 dripper (size 2) + filter papers

Rhinowares hand grinder

150ml cup

Electronic scales

Colombia - El Desvelado #1 beans

The recommended coffee ratio is 65g/1000ml so for a 150ml cup I calculate I should use 6.6g of coffee.

My problem is that the resulting coffee is far too strong (tar-like) for my taste.

Even reducing the coffee amount to 5g is still producing a muddy, thick brew.

Now I guess the problem is due to grind size but I've tried various grinder settings and can't quite get the right one.

So if there's anyone out there with a Rhinowares hand grinder using the V60 method can you please advise.


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## fatboyslim

Rupert said:


> Let's say I use the V60 brewing method.
> 
> Equipment:
> 
> V60 dripper (size 2) + filter papers
> 
> Rhinowares hand grinder
> 
> 150ml cup
> 
> Electronic scales
> 
> Colombia - El Desvelado #1 beans
> 
> The recommended coffee ratio is 65g/1000ml so for a 150ml cup I calculate I should use 6.6g of coffee.
> 
> My problem is that the resulting coffee is far too strong (tar-like) for my taste.
> 
> Even reducing the coffee amount to 5g is still producing a muddy, thick brew.
> 
> Now I guess the problem is due to grind size but I've tried various grinder settings and can't quite get the right one.
> 
> So if there's anyone out there with a Rhinowares hand grinder using the V60 method can you please advise.


Sieve out the finest powdery bits and you should be good. Kitchen sieve can be used for this. I have to do it when I'm forced to use my hateful porlex.

Other than that, buy a decent burr grinder like Baratza Encore.


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## Mrboots2u

@MWJB

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MWJB

Recommended coffee ratios are from 55-70g/l.

Your coffee weights are wrong. You are possibly over-extracting the coffee, which would make it ashy & bitter, which may be perceived as strong? You have a 150ml cup, you probably don't want to overflow it, so brew with 9g of coffee & 150g of hot brew water.

Bloom with 18g & stir the slurry quickly to ensure it is all wet.

After 30 seconds pour your brew water, in spirals & not lingering on any one spot too long, up to total of 150g (another 132g). I trust you are using a pouring kettle (preheat brewer & kettle with boiling water & discard preheat water, dose brewer & bloom)?

Aim for the brew to drain from the top of the bed at around 2:50, leave it a few moments for drips to cease.

Either adjust grind to achieve the brew time, or break up the pours, say 66g every 40sec, 44g every 30sec, or 33g every 25sec.

Try settings between 3 & 5 clicks?


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## Rupert

MWJB said:


> Recommended coffee ratios are from 55-70g/l.
> 
> Your coffee weights are wrong. You are possibly over-extracting the coffee, which would make it ashy & bitter, which may be perceived as strong? You have a 150ml cup, you probably don't want to overflow it, so brew with 9g of coffee & 150g of hot brew water.
> 
> Bloom with 18g & stir the slurry quickly to ensure it is all wet.
> 
> After 30 seconds pour your brew water, in spirals & not lingering on any one spot too long, up to total of 150g (another 132g). I trust you are using a pouring kettle (preheat brewer & kettle with boiling water & discard preheat water, dose brewer & bloom)?
> 
> Aim for the brew to drain from the top of the bed at around 2:50, leave it a few moments for drips to cease.
> 
> Either adjust grind to achieve the brew time, or break up the pours, say 66g every 40sec, 44g every 30sec, or 33g every 25sec.
> 
> Try settings between 3 & 5 clicks?


Having followed your instructions carefully I end up with coffee twice as strong and for me: almost undrinkable (and yes, I always use fresh water, a spout kettle, I pre-warm the cup, rinse the paper & have tried everything from 3 to 7 clicks on the grinder - 7 clicks is preferable for me).

I've now got a coffee headache. If this is the way coffee is supposed to taste then I've come to the conclusion that it is me - I no longer enjoy coffee.

BTW



fatboyslim said:


> ...buy a decent burr grinder like Baratza Encore.


 I can't justify the cost of one of those, especially since I now suspect that coffee is no longer for me.

Thanks for the advice.


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## MWJB

Rupert said:


> Having followed your instructions carefully I end up with coffee twice as strong and for me: almost undrinkable (and yes, I always use fresh water, a spout kettle, I pre-warm the cup, rinse the paper & have tried everything from 3 to 7 clicks on the grinder - 7 clicks is preferable for me).
> 
> I've now got a coffee headache. If this is the way coffee is supposed to taste then I've come to the conclusion that it is me - I no longer enjoy coffee.
> 
> BTW I can't justify the cost of one of those, especially since I now suspect that coffee is no longer for me.
> 
> Thanks for the advice.


Ok. The ratio I gave you is a typical preference for European drip. It still doesn't mean you have to like it.

So, keep to the same amount of water, keep reducing the coffee amount until you get a strength that you like, be aware you might have to adjust grind to steer the flavour?

I am interested though, what coffee (method) have you been drinking previously?


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## the_partisan

Your calculation is wrong. 6.6/.150 = 44g/L , which is way too little. Too little coffee and too much water will result in overextraction.

I also think 150ml is a bit too little for a size 2 v60. You might get better results with 200-250ml.

I dose 12g to 200ml with good results. Watch this video for technique:






If the coffee still taste bitter try grinding coarser and try again without changing the amount of coffee or water. It's a common mistake to reduce coffee amount when coffee tastes bitter, which results in even more overextraction. You can definitely make excellent coffee with your hand grinder, you don't need to buy another one.


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## Rupert

MWJB said:


> Ok. The ratio I gave you is a typical preference for Euoropean drip. It still doesn't mean you have to like it.
> 
> So, keep to the same amount of water, keep reducing the coffee amount until you get a strength that you like, be aware you might have to adjust grind to steer the flavour?
> 
> I am interested though, what coffee (method) have you been drinking previously?


Previous to V60 I was using a French press which was kind of OK. I also have an Aeropress which didn't impress at all.


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## Missy

When you say muddy and thick do you mean texture or taste? (Tar as in gloopy or as in tastes of?) Sounds very unlike anything I've ever managed to force through my v60, which I always find tastes "wet and thin" unless I use a huge amount of coffee.


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## Rupert

With the French press I more often than not got a real nice result but when I began to try to systemize the method and read a lot about various brewing methods it all started to go wrong. I just used to grab and grind a few beans but getting into weighing, pouring methods and all the other tedious refinements (even how to stir for god's sake) is when it all started to go wrong. Thinking about the crazy, meaningless flavour descriptions (tropical fruit!!!) and all the other guff that some coffee afficionados go on about is what, I think, has put me off. At the end of the day (or rather the beginning) all I wanted was a half decent cup of coffee, not to engage in scientific process or experiment. Hey Ho.


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## Rupert

Missy said:


> When you say muddy and thick do you mean texture or taste? (Tar as in gloopy or as in tastes of?) Sounds very unlike anything I've ever managed to force through my v60, which I always find tastes "wet and thin" unless I use a huge amount of coffee.


I mean both in texture (gloopy yes) and taste.


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## Missy

How strange. You've not been accidentally tearing the filter paper?


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## Mrboots2u

I do not mean this rudely but This might not be the forum for you Rupert , it's full of guff and lovers of guff ....just coz you cant or don't want to taste tropical doesn't make it a meaningless decription,.

If you want no fuss get a french press grind , leave for a period of time , drink ( you will need to understand the amount of coffee you use versus the amount of water )


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## Missy

Rupert said:


> With the French press I more often than not got a real nice result...
> 
> all I wanted was a half decent cup of coffee


If it ain't broke...

Sounds like that might be your solution.


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## PPapa

Rupert said:


> With the French press I more often than not got a real nice result but when I began to try to systemize the method and read a lot about various brewing methods it all started to go wrong. I just used to grab and grind a few beans but getting into weighing, pouring methods and all the other tedious refinements (even how to stir for god's sake) is when it all started to go wrong. Thinking about the crazy, meaningless flavour descriptions (tropical fruit!!!) and all the other guff that some coffee afficionados go on about is what, I think, has put me off. At the end of the day (or rather the beginning) all I wanted was a half decent cup of coffee, not to engage in scientific process or experiment. Hey Ho.


Most of us associate that with being consistent, i.e. the cup you made at 11AM yesterday will be the same at 9AM tomorrow. I suppose you still eyeball measurements (beans used, grind size, water used, etc.), we just measure it by using scales. Not something too scientific, is it?


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## Rupert

the_partisan said:


> Your calculation is wrong.


Yes you're right. So for a 150ml cup I should be using 8 to 9g of coffee.

I recently tried that - coffee seems far too strong to me: I've lost the taste of coffee.


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## Missy

Sorted.

If you are selling the stuff pop it on here, I'm looking out for a cheap aeropress.


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## MWJB

the_partisan said:


> Your calculation is wrong. 6.6/.150 = 44g/L , which is way too little. Too little coffee and too much water will result in overextraction.
> 
> I also think 150ml is a bit too little for a size 2 v60. You might get better results with 200-250ml.


150ml works fine in V60, the Japanese instructions aim for a higher brew ratio than we typically use, ~10-12g to 120-140g water per person.


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## the_partisan

Rupert said:


> Yes you're right. So for a 150ml cup I should be using 8 to 9g of coffee.
> 
> I recently tried that - coffee seems far too strong to me: I've lost the taste of coffee.


Try grinding coarser until the coffee doesn't taste so strong, but keep the amount of coffee constant.


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## Rupert

Mrboots2u said:


> I do not mean this rudely but This might not be the forum for you Rupert , it's full of guff and lovers of guff ....just coz you cant or don't want to taste tropical doesn't make it a meaningless decription,.
> 
> If you want no fuss get a french press grind , leave for a period of time , drink ( you will need to understand the amount of coffee you use versus the amount of water )


Yes you're probably right about this not being the forum for me.

But before I go please explain about this coffee flavour description: Tropical Fruit. It's mentioned on Rave Coffee's website for Ethiopian Yirgcheffe G1 and I've seen it elsewhere. As far I'm aware tropical fruit can be anything from banana to pineapple, see here.


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## MWJB

Rupert said:


> Yes you're probably right about this not being the forum for me.
> 
> But before I go please explain about this coffee flavour description: Tropical Fruit. It's mentioned on Rave Coffee's website for Ethiopian Yirgcheffe G1 and I've seen it elsewhere. As far I'm aware tropical fruit can be anything from banana to pineapple, see here.


Why would you buy coffee with a specific tasting note if you don't want that note, nor believe it is there?

Your preference is atypical (but not wrong in any way), this is probably having an effect on your brewing & the extractions at which flavour notes are met.

What should coffee taste of?


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## Missy

MWJB said:


> What should coffee taste of?


Pixiedust and unicorn hair.

"Tropical fruit" I would expect to put me in mind of the plethora of things described as being tropical fruit flavoured, lilt, tropical fruit squash (plastic cup of Kia ora anyone?) Some sweets.

As opposed to citrusy. Or chocolatey. Or cheesy. Or floral.


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## Mrboots2u




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## Rupert

MWJB said:


> Why would you buy coffee with a specific tasting note if you don't want that note, nor believe it is there?
> 
> Your preference is atypical (but not wrong in any way), this is probably having an effect on your brewing & the extractions at which flavour notes are met.
> 
> What should coffee taste of?


I'm simply trying to understand what these coffee descriptions mean and/or how they're derived. Here's a few more:

Big red cherry (size matters?)

Yellow stone fruit?

Stewed fruits?

Now I'm quite prepared to accept that I have a very unsophisticated palate so please tell me: Are there people who can actually detect these flavours in coffee?

I'm prepared to be amazed.


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## Mrboots2u

Rupert said:


> I'm simply trying to understand what these coffee descriptions mean and/or how they're derived. Here's a few more:
> 
> Big red cherry (size matters?)
> 
> Yellow stone fruit?
> 
> Stewed fruits?
> 
> Now I'm quite prepared to accept that I have a very unsophisticated palate so please tell me: Are there people who can actually detect these flavours in coffee?
> 
> I'm prepared to be amazed.


I have cupped ( blind ) and detected stone fruits , and stewed...unless it was the voices in my head ...

You are suggesting that everyone makes stuff up , and the man will come out from behind the big green curtain at some point ...









Does that make me the Scarecrow , the lion or the tin man ( cue friend of Dorothy puns .... )


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## Missy

Yep. Hi. I'm Missy. The recent beans ive drunk included car tyres, lemon sherbert, chocolate limes, bourbon biscuits and hobnobs. (Not all in one bag) they all also taste of coffee.

Do you/have you ever smoked? Do you drink alcohol heavily? Do you snore profusely? Worked in a heavy industrial environment? All these things could affect/signify issues with taste/smell that could be reducing your ability to detect flavours underneath the big headline taste.


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## Rupert

Missy said:


> ...Or cheesy...


What, gorganzola, feta...?


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## Missy

Can you taste the difference between cab sav and rioja?


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## Missy

Rupert said:


> What, gorganzola, feta...?


Not in a coffee. But let's go with it. Camembert and Brie, both soft rind cheeses. Taste different. Subtly.


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## Rupert

Missy said:


> Yep. Hi. I'm Missy. The recent beans ive drunk included car tyres, lemon sherbert, chocolate limes, bourbon biscuits and hobnobs. (Not all in one bag) they all also taste of coffee.
> 
> Do you/have you ever smoked? Do you drink alcohol heavily? Do you snore profusely? Worked in a heavy industrial environment? All these things could affect/signify issues with taste/smell that could be reducing your ability to detect flavours underneath the big headline taste.


None of those and I've yet to taste car tyres


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## Rupert

Missy said:


> Can you taste the difference between cab sav and rioja?


Certainly I can


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## Missy

Rupert said:


> None of those and I've yet to taste car tyres


Probably my "flowery" description of your tar.

I've just had a 3rd coffee today and over extracted it by 4grams. The first two tasted of biscuits, the third just tasted burnt because I was eating and wandered away from the machine, didn't get back quick enough.


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## Missy

Describe to me the difference between cab sav and rioja without using flowery simile.


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## Rupert

Missy said:


> Yep. Hi. I'm Missy. The recent beans ive drunk included car tyres, lemon sherbert, chocolate limes, bourbon biscuits and hobnobs. (Not all in one bag) they all also taste of coffee.
> 
> Do you/have you ever smoked? Do you drink alcohol heavily? Do you snore profusely? Worked in a heavy industrial environment? All these things could affect/signify issues with taste/smell that could be reducing your ability to detect flavours underneath the big headline taste.


I'm seriously considering now that my taste is buggered.


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## Missy

Where do you live? Are there any of these fancy coffee shops they have in posh places where they serve decent stuff with tasting notes? Then you could rule out technique vs taste buds.


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## Rupert

Missy said:


> Describe to me the difference between cab sav and rioja without using flowery simile.


I would have to have a sip of each now to tell you that.

But don't lets start on wine tasting, that's even crazier. I remember Jilly Goolden once describing a wine a having a hint of tomcat.


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## Missy

I'm asking you to not do that.

Since you "can" tell the difference. How do you describe it?

Sigh.


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## James811

I don't get all th we fancy notes either a lot of the time. I'm into cigars and find the same with that. I do however know if I enjoy something, I get bold flavours from espresso, fruity from chemex and totally different from Americano. I certainly wouldn't say that I get 'strawberry' or ' macadamia nuts' but as long as I enjoy the process and enjoy the result I'm having a good time and that's what matters. If you're not enjoying it either way I'd do what others have suggested. Go to a good coffee shop and try and see if you enjoy something from there. If so, ask their method, buy the same beans and try and re create it. That's where all the fun is! As with everything in life, enjoy what you enjoy for the reasons you like it. Don't force it


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## Rupert

Missy said:


> Where do you live? Are there any of these fancy coffee shops they have in posh places where they serve decent stuff with tasting notes? Then you could rule out technique vs taste buds.


The nearest place I know near here that probably has fancy coffee shops is Cambridge, about 20 miles away. I rarely go there (8 & a half quid to park!). Of course, there closer Starmucks and Costa which I avoid


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## Missy

Shall I answer my own wine question? Rioja I find smoky, and cab sav big bold and fruity. I'm not a "wine aficionado" but I "know what I like" I find merlot has a metallic tang I don't enjoy.

None of those words accurately describe the actual taste (it all tastes of wine)

I've just got into gin. I don't have words for the different flavours. It makes explaining why I prefer one over another difficult.

My almost two year old called all fruit apples for ages, but he knew it was a yes to strawberries and a no to an actual apple.

We have limited language, and so use metaphor and simile to be able to more accurately describe to others what we do or don't enjoy about certain things.

That's what tasting notes do.

Yellow stone fruits vs cherries vs stewed fruit, it's subtleties of comparison, but I reckon if one drank enough different coffees one would be able to say X coffee was more this way than Y coffee.

I'm keeping copious notes, and trying to specifically pick differently described coffees to try.

Maybe you need to try a tasting pack to compare slightly more "side by side"


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## PPapa

Missy said:


> Can you taste the difference between cab sav and rioja?


Would I score extra points if I didn't know what either of these things mean?









P.s. I did google them and that's what I was expecting. Meh.


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## Rupert

Missy said:


> Shall I answer my own wine question? Rioja I find smoky, and cab sav big bold and fruity. I'm not a "wine aficionado" but I "know what I like" I find merlot has a metallic tang I don't enjoy.
> 
> None of those words accurately describe the actual taste (it all tastes of wine)
> 
> I've just got into gin. I don't have words for the different flavours. It makes explaining why I prefer one over another difficult.
> 
> My almost two year old called all fruit apples for ages, but he knew it was a yes to strawberries and a no to an actual apple.
> 
> We have limited language, and so use metaphor and simile to be able to more accurately describe to others what we do or don't enjoy about certain things.
> 
> That's what tasting notes do.
> 
> Yellow stone fruits vs cherries vs stewed fruit, it's subtleties of comparison, but I reckon if one drank enough different coffees one would be able to say X coffee was more this way than Y coffee.
> 
> I'm keeping copious notes, and trying to specifically pick differently described coffees to try.
> 
> Maybe you need to try a tasting pack to compare slightly more "side by side"


Rioja is more vinegary than Cab Sav. Cab Sav has a fresher, lighter taste but that's very far from describing it since as you say it all tastes of wine.

I've just brewed another cup of 'car tyre and gorgonzola' using 10g coffee to 150ml. It tastes better.

Keeping notes is a great idea which I'll adopt. Also getting a taster pack might be worth it.

Thanks for all your patience and advice.


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## Missy

Rupert said:


> I've just brewed another cup of 'car tyre and gorgonzola' using 10g coffee to 150ml. It tastes better.


Better how?! When it gets to tractor tyre and Wensleydale you've gone too far.


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## Rupert

Missy said:


> Better how?! When it gets to tractor tyre and Wensleydale you've gone too far.


'Better how' is a really difficult question. If I'm gonna keep notes then I'll have to come up with something. The only thing I can say is that I like it more than the last one. It comes closer to what I expect a decent coffee to taste like.

I suppose we all have a personal idea of what coffee should taste like and I guess each of us has a different idea. To me it doesn't taste of any descriptions I've yet to read - there's nothing floral/fruity/chocolatey/etc about it at all as far as I can detect but it tastes OK.

Quite possibly mood, time of day, even the weather are factors to.

Maybe for me over-analyzation is something to avoid. After all, it's just a cup of coffee.


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## Missy

Smooth? Rich? Clean? Soft? Mellow? All more traditional coffee words? If it's tasting more like coffee that's a great start. It may be you've picked a bold coffee to get a traditional blended coffee taste from.


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## Step21

Why are you set on 150ml brews using a size 2 filter cone? Size 1 would be more optimal.

Not saying you can't get good results this way but results might improve if you increased the brew volume. I use approx 58g/l so that's 13.1g to 225ml brew water.

If you want to taste what's in the bean you need to make sure that you are using fresh coffee, good water, weighing coffee and water input accurately. Adopt a consistent dosing and bloom/pour technique and adjust grind until you hit sweetness in the brew. Don't worry about tasting notes for now. Worry about sweetness. A good V60 (or any brew for that matter) should primarily taste sweet and when it does you'll most probably notice those missing flavours as well.


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## jlarkin

Rupert said:


> The nearest place I know near here that probably has fancy coffee shops is Cambridge, about 20 miles away. I rarely go there (8 & a half quid to park!). Of course, there closer Starmucks and Costa which I avoid


Park and ride? 

I think you may have mentioned before but what coffee are you using?


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## Phil104

jlarkin said:


> Park and ride?
> 
> I think you may have mentioned before but what coffee are you using?


Good suggestion and good question. @Rupert said he is using Colombia - El Desvelado #1 beans. Are those from Rave and described as a medium roast? Personally, although I know there are big fans of Rave on here, their roasts don't quite do it for me. I would seriously consider getting hold of different beans from a different roaster that aren't described as a medium roast. The last medium roast I had (last Sunday) I gave away on the Forum because they were just too dark for my taste.


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## Phil104

And I could have added in a blind tasting I generally taste coffee (although I did surprise myself - and our daughter - when I ordered a filter and definitely got hit of strawberry, said to her that I was sure it was a Yirgacheffe, asked what the coffee was and it was a Yirg). There are lot of people who find it hard to distinguish tasting notes and stick with what I stick with as a starting point - do I like it? Over time I have gradually begun to distinguish some flavours and the tasting notes can help. More often than not I think of the music that the coffee reminds me of - and that brings me pleasure. (It was drinking Small Batch's 'Blue Note' that caused me to reflect on what worked best for me in thinking about the coffee I was tasting.) Stick with it Rupert and with the Forum. (PS Espresso Library in Cambridge.)


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## jonbutler88

I absolutely love those beans, I had them as a Rave subscription 2 months in a row and both bags were top notch. Don't get caught up in the tasting notes, they're just some opinions of tastes of the coffee, likely while cupping. It doesn't mean they'll all come through crystal clear in all brew methods.

IIRC, I remember the El Desvelado beans being a nice balance of fruit with a cocoa aftertaste - I haven't experienced any of the nasty tastes being described on this thread. I brewed them in the V60 02 size with the bleached Hario filters, so it sounds like we're using very similar kit. I know it's not possible for everyone, but I noticed a massive difference in the taste of my V60 brews with each upgrade to my grinder. With an EK43, you can easily get some very tasty flavours, often in line with what's on the notes. Once you've got your brew ratios right, I'd keep going coarser with your grind until you reach a level of strength which works for you.

Also, what water are you using? If you're using tap, I'd recommend giving your kettle a good descale and then switching to something like Waitrose Essential or Volvic, this should provide a big jump in the quality of the coffee you're brewing.

This probably sounds too scientific when you're diagnosing problems, but once you have these things sorted it's relatively minimal fuss, just weigh the beans going in and the coffee coming out so you know when to stop pouring. Worth it to know you can maintain the improvements to the brew you'll likely make!


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## Phil104

jonbutler88 said:


> I absolutely love those beans, I had them as a Rave subscription 2 months in a row and both bags were top notch. Don't get caught up in the tasting notes, they're just some opinions of tastes of the coffee, likely while cupping. It doesn't mean they'll all come through crystal clear in all brew methods.
> 
> IIRC, I remember the El Desvelado beans being a nice balance of fruit with a cocoa aftertaste - I haven't experienced any of the nasty tastes being described on this thread. I brewed them in the V60 02 size with the bleached Hario filters, so it sounds like we're using very similar kit. I know it's not possible for everyone, but I noticed a massive difference in the taste of my V60 brews with each upgrade to my grinder. With an EK43, you can easily get some very tasty flavours, often in line with what's on the notes. Once you've got your brew ratios right, I'd keep going coarser with your grind until you reach a level of strength which works for you.
> 
> Also, what water are you using? If you're using tap, I'd recommend giving your kettle a good descale and then switching to something like Waitrose Essential or Volvic, this should provide a big jump in the quality of the coffee you're brewing.
> 
> This probably sounds too scientific when you're diagnosing problems, but once you have these things sorted it's relatively minimal fuss, just weigh the beans going in and the coffee coming out so you know when to stop pouring. Worth it to know you can maintain the improvements to the brew you'll likely make!


A good post that is a balance to mine, and a good read.


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## Rupert

Step21 said:


> Why are you set on 150ml brews using a size 2 filter cone? Size 1 would be more optimal.
> 
> Not saying you can't get good results this way but results might improve if you increased the brew volume. I use approx 58g/l so that's 13.1g to 225ml brew water.
> 
> If you want to taste what's in the bean you need to make sure that you are using fresh coffee, good water, weighing coffee and water input accurately. Adopt a consistent dosing and bloom/pour technique and adjust grind until you hit sweetness in the brew. Don't worry about tasting notes for now. Worry about sweetness. A good V60 (or any brew for that matter) should primarily taste sweet and when it does you'll most probably notice those missing flavours as well.


A 150ml mug size is just right for me. I read of many people using 230ml or above but that's just too much for my tastes. I'm using a size 2 V60 because it came free with a pack I bought & there seems little point changing it.

I'm doing all the procedures you suggest but I've never, ever noticed any 'sweetness'. Perhaps you mean 'sweetness' in the same sense that people describe coffee taste as 'stewed rhubarb' or 'tropical fruit'. To me those kind of descriptives are outside of my experience. Sweetness as in sugar, honey, certain fruits I understand but in coffee! Must be a different definition.

Oh well, I've got another 400g of beans to get through, some is 'Columbia El Desvelado #1' and some is 'Small producers of Huila' so plenty enough for some experimentation.


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## Rupert

jlarkin said:


> Park and ride?
> 
> I think you may have mentioned before but what coffee are you using?


Presently it's Columbian El Desvelado #1


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## MWJB

Rupert said:


> A 150ml mug size is just right for me. I read of many people using 230ml or above but that's just too much for my tastes. I'm using a size 2 V60 because it came free with a pack I bought & there seems little point changing it.
> 
> I'm doing all the procedures you suggest but I've never, ever noticed any 'sweetness'. Perhaps you mean 'sweetness' in the same sense that people describe coffee taste as 'stewed rhubarb' or 'tropical fruit'. To me those kind of descriptives are outside of my experience. Sweetness as in sugar, honey, certain fruits I understand but in coffee! Must be a different definition.
> 
> Oh well, I've got another 400g of beans to get through, some is 'Columbia El Desvelado #1' and some is 'Small producers of Huila' so plenty enough for some experimentation.


You started off with a suggestion from me of 9:150g, you didn't like that as to strong. You then tried 10:150g which you thought was better, but this would be stronger.

Can you make a video of your brew, or perhaps note down exactly what you do, brew by brew?


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## Rupert

Phil104 said:


> Good suggestion and good question. @Rupert said he is using Colombia - El Desvelado #1 beans. Are those from Rave and described as a medium roast? Personally, although I know there are big fans of Rave on here, their roasts don't quite do it for me. I would seriously consider getting hold of different beans from a different roaster that aren't described as a medium roast. The last medium roast I had (last Sunday) I gave away on the Forum because they were just too dark for my taste.


Yes, that's from Rave but I have some 'Small producers of Huila' from Pact waiting in the wings.


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## Mrboots2u

Nope sweet = Sweet , i use that term with reference to sugar , choc caramel etc .....

I think you will just have to accept that people taste stuff differently , as some of your comments give the impression that coffee lovers are all under some kind of mass hallucination , We are not , we are just all individuals , brewing different ways, tasting different things...


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## doolallysquiff

Once brewed let a cool a little then taste. Next let it cool a little more and taste again. Keep tasting until the coffee is luke warm/cold. You should hopefully notice the difference in taste.


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## Rupert

jonbutler88 said:


> ...Also, what water are you using? If you're using tap, I'd recommend giving your kettle a good descale and then switching to something like Waitrose Essential or Volvic, this should provide a big jump in the quality of the coffee you're brewing.
> 
> This probably sounds too scientific when you're diagnosing problems, but once you have these things sorted it's relatively minimal fuss, just weigh the beans going in and the coffee coming out so you know when to stop pouring. Worth it to know you can maintain the improvements to the brew you'll likely make!


I'm using bottled water: Highland Spring as my water is very hard and as such my kettle is descale regularly.


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## Mrboots2u

Rupert said:


> I'm using bottled water: Highland Spring as my water is very hard and as such my kettle is descale regularly.


not great water for coffee ...


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## jonbutler88

Not sure how Highland spring fares, but not heard anyone rave about it... @Spence is the man in the know about bottled water, although there are also many threads on it.

If it makes you feel any better, I've never really gotten "sweetness" from any coffee I've drunk, but I have managed a lot of combinations of interesting acidity, fruity flavours and chocolate / nutty aftertastes, which are very pleasant to my palette at least...


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## Mrboots2u

rupert said:


> i'm using bottled water: Highland spring as my water is very hard and as such my kettle is descale regularly.


 @mwjb


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## MWJB

Mrboots2u said:


> not great water for coffee ...


Start with Volvic.


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## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


> ome of your comments give the impression that coffee lovers are all under some kind of mass hallucination


it's all emperor's new clothes, every coffee i'd had tastes of mud and earth, i just use a random tasting note generator to try and look cool "Meyer lemon, shinpads and florence's nightingale's nursing cap"


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## MWJB

jeebsy said:


> it's all emperor's new clothes, every coffee i'd had tastes of mud and earth.....


Well it would do wouldn't it, I mean it was ground a few minutes ago! 

...I'll get me coat...


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## jeebsy

MWJB said:


> Well it would do wouldn't it, I mean it was ground a few minutes ago!
> 
> ...I'll get me coat...


*groan*


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> it's all emperor's new clothes, every coffee i'd had tastes of mud and earth, i just use a random tasting note generator to try and look cool "Meyer lemon, shinpads and florence's nightingale's nursing cap"


I use this one.......

http://www.seventhsanctum.com/generate.php?Genname=potiondesc


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## Mrboots2u

"The thick potion that is topaz with rose flashes. It smells like milk and excrement, but tastes like pumpkin."


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## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


> The thick potion that is topaz with rose flashes. It smells like milk and excrement, but tastes like pumpkin."


Harry Potter makes the best coffee

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Rupert

Mrboots2u said:


> Nope sweet = Sweet , i use that term with reference to sugar , choc caramel etc .....
> 
> I think you will just have to accept that people taste stuff differently , as some of your comments give the impression that coffee lovers are all under some kind of mass hallucination , We are not , we are just all individuals , brewing different ways, tasting different things...


Well, that will be a big surprise for me when I get that sweetness and I look forward to it.

Mass hallucination? No, I'm not sufficiently familiar with the coffee world to say that. I do however think that that applies to the wine world and there's evidence to back it up: Frederic Brochettes and Robert Hodgson - look it up.


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## Rupert

doolallysquiff said:


> Once brewed let a cool a little then taste. Next let it cool a little more and taste again. Keep tasting until the coffee is luke warm/cold. You should hopefully notice the difference in taste.


Yes, I have noticed that, I think it improves with waiting.


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## Rupert

Mrboots2u said:


> not great water for coffee ...


Well, I'm experimenting so I'll try something different next.


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## MWJB

Rupert said:


> Well, I'm experimenting so I'll try something different next.


You're experimenting with too many variables, stick to known good water (Volvic), when things improve, you can tweak that too if you want.


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## Mrboots2u

HLS said:


> Too many experts here, let me just scrutinize


Yeah but my grinder is made from tritons unknown fogplatinum of the sands...


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## Rupert

Rupert said:


> Well, I'm experimenting so I'll try something different next.


Yes, I guess that's true, and I didn't notice a difference between tap & bottled anyway.

Tomorrow I start my research - tweak one variable at a time. And who said this wasn't science?


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## Jon

Rupert said:


> I'm simply trying to understand what these coffee descriptions mean and/or how they're derived. Here's a few more:
> 
> Big red cherry (size matters?)
> 
> Yellow stone fruit?
> 
> Stewed fruits?
> 
> Now I'm quite prepared to accept that I have a very unsophisticated palate so please tell me: Are there people who can actually detect these flavours in coffee?
> 
> I'm prepared to be amazed.


My taste buds are not great. But I've certainly tasted cherry in beans. Strawberry in others. I suspect 'big cherry' was referencing a "big flavour" of cherry rather than a flavour of "big cherries".

The tasting notes can sometimes seem to me to be more indicative than literal - but that could easily be a limitation of my palate or technique - or both!


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## Jon

Rupert said:


> None of those and I've yet to taste car tyres


Try nespresso.


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## MWJB

Rupert said:


> Yes, I guess that's true, and I didn't notice a difference between tap & bottled anyway.
> 
> Tomorrow I start my research - tweak one variable at a time. And who said this wasn't science?


It's more a procedure, or a recipe, than science. We're not testing a hypothesis (we know drip brewers are capable of making good coffee in terms of common preference...whether that aligns with your preference is another matter & it's fine if you like something different), we're trying to help you steer to a reasonably predictable result via universal & much used mechanisms.

You could pick up some Waitrose Essential and mix 5 parts to 1 part Highland Spring, to use up the rest of it. Highland Spring is high in bicarbonate, which can flatten off brews, or make them chalky.


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## jeebsy

Jon said:


> My taste buds are not great. But I've certainly tasted cherry in beans. Strawberry in others. I suspect 'big cherry' was referencing a "big flavour" of cherry rather than a flavour of "big cherries".
> 
> The tasting notes can sometimes seem to me to be more indicative than literal - but that could easily be a limitation of my palate or technique - or both!


Big cherries are a thing. Like wild strawberries. Those are strawberries that engage in ott behaviour

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Jon

jeebsy said:


> Big cherries are a thing. Like wild strawberries. Those are strawberries that engage in ott behaviour
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


My cherry knowledge is clearly lacking.


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## Mrboots2u

Jon said:


> My cherry knowledge is clearly lacking.


baked in a pie , they can make a grown man cry......


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## jeebsy

> baked in a pie , they can make a grown man cry......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Rupert

OK, here are the variables:

Water type

Water qty

Bean variety

Coffee qty

Grind setting

De-gas water qty

De-gas time

Notes


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## PPapa

To add few:

Roast profile/level

Time passed after roast

Pour motion (circular, zigzag, straight to middle, etc)

Pour speed

Pour timing

Pulse or continuous pour

Time when to kill the brew (don't use it personally, but seen some people advocating)

Sieving the boulders or fines

Water temperature (important!)

Stirring vs no stirring

Shaking the brewer vs no shaking (some people swirl, tap, etc)

Yeah... You could call it scientific, but it's just a recipe for brewing so you and I can describe what we are drinking.


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## MWJB

Rupert said:


> OK, here are the variables:
> 
> Water type
> 
> Water qty
> 
> Bean variety
> 
> Coffee qty
> 
> Grind setting
> 
> De-gas water qty
> 
> De-gas time
> 
> Notes


Reduce them.

Water type I covered, strike it off.

Water qty is covered, 150ml cup makes max brew water 150ml, less what is absorbed by the bed. Strike it off.

Bean variety - the mechanisms of ratio, time & grind work the same way for all beans. You have beans, they may vary a little from one type to another in brew time, work witth what you have. Strike it off.

Coffee qty - you said 6.6 & 5g & 9 g were too strong, but liked 10g. This is counter intuitive as higher dose for same amount of water makes for a stronger drink. Pick something in the middle, say 8.5g & stick to it for now. Fine tune if you want a stronger/weaker drink after you have hit a good flavour balance.

Grind setting - the one that allows the brew to finish at 2:45 +/-10sec or so, is the right grind setting, until you demonstrate otherwise (happy to be wrong here).

De gas water qty - make it the same each time. The reason I suggested 18g was because 132g remains and is easily divisible by 2, 3 or 4 if you need to adjust pour rate to fine tune brew time.

Degas time - 30sec, stir immediately to ensure no dry clumps.

Notes - Yes please, brew by brew. Grinder setting, dose weight to 0.1g, brew water weight, brew time to the second you see a clear bed of coffee (plus excess drip time).


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## Rupert

PPapa said:


> To add few:
> 
> Roast profile/level
> 
> Time passed after roast
> 
> Pour motion (circular, zigzag, straight to middle, etc)
> 
> Pour speed
> 
> Pour timing
> 
> Pulse or continuous pour
> 
> Time when to kill the brew (don't use it personally, but seen some people advocating)
> 
> Sieving the boulders or fines
> 
> Water temperature (important!)
> 
> Stirring vs no stirring
> 
> Shaking the brewer vs no shaking (some people swirl, tap, etc)
> 
> Yeah... You could call it scientific, but it's just a recipe for brewing so you and I can describe what we are drinking.


Very amusing.

I was also considering adding: ph of the water, local humidity, psychological profile of taster etc

Seriously, if you really think that pour motion, shaking the brewer vs no shaking and pulse or continuous pour is detectable at tasting then I award you the Gilly Goolden Hint of Tomcat Award.


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## Rupert

MWJB said:


> ...dose weight to 0.1g...


Seriously?


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## Step21

Rupert said:


> A 150ml mug size is just right for me. I read of many people using 230ml or above but that's just too much for my tastes. I'm using a size 2 V60 because it came free with a pack I bought & there seems little point changing it.
> 
> I'm doing all the procedures you suggest but I've never, ever noticed any 'sweetness'. Perhaps you mean 'sweetness' in the same sense that people describe coffee taste as 'stewed rhubarb' or 'tropical fruit'. To me those kind of descriptives are outside of my experience. Sweetness as in sugar, honey, certain fruits I understand but in coffee! Must be a different definition.
> 
> Oh well, I've got another 400g of beans to get through, some is 'Columbia El Desvelado #1' and some is 'Small producers of Huila' so plenty enough for some experimentation.


Fair enough. Enjoy your 132ml!

Not wishing to confuse you further but what type of V60 filter are you using? The pack will have code on it like VCF-02-100W-H. This means that it's 02 filter size, bleached white, 100 in the pack and made in Holland. If it is this one then it may result in a longer brew time.

Coffee is 98.75% ish water. The minerals in the water are acting as solvents and washing out chemical compounds from the coffee into your cup. If you act on no other advice that has been given - change your water. Highland Spring is crap for coffee, it doesn't have the correct mineral balance.

Sounds like your coffee is from Rave. I've never had any of their beans but they are a well respected roaster. If they advertise the coffee as "suitable for filter" then it will be. They will have roasted loads of these beans in different ways and selected the profile they regard to be the best. They will have brewed this coffee and obtained sweetness and the flavours described on the packet. They are not inventing fantasy tastes. Coffee roasting produces sugars and a whole host of various compounds. The coffee roasters art is to produce a coffee that balances all the various elements.

The problem we have as brewers is to get all the desirable compounds out of the roasted coffee and into the cup while leaving behind the less desirable compounds. It's not as easy as i'd like it to be. Thus there are various standard recipes for getting a good ballpark extraction.

A lot of people do not believe that coffee can be sweet and fruity, so you're not alone there. Fact is they are just plain wrong.


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## Rupert

Maybe I'm using the wrong colour mug!


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## Jon

Rupert said:


> Seriously?


You know MWJB is trying to help you with his posts?

He's very knowledgeable (and managed to get me making sweet and fruity coffee from a drip brewer!) - so personally, given his time/effort, I think saying or clicking 'Thanks' would be a better reply, ahead of any additional questions...


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## MWJB

Rupert said:


> Seriously?


scales that read to 0.1g may only be accurate to +/-0.3g. If using scales that read to 1g (this is fine for the brew water), they may not be accurate to that...this makes repeating brew ratios & results tricky with small brews.

8.1/150=54g/l

8.8/150=58.7g/l

...or the equivalent of using 8.5g of coffee with 145g to 157g of water. Might not seem like much but if you got the same strength brew at either extreme, it makes a noticeable difference in flavour balance.

It takes a few seconds to trim your dose & is one of the easiest aspects of brewing.

BTW acceptable PH of brew water is specified by brewing bodies, if you pour in one spot with a paper V60 you can end up with a faster or uneven extraction, pouring all your water in one go vs pulse pouring has a measurable impact on brew time & extraction (for the same grind). If you choose to ignore the realities of drip brewing then you're likely to struggle. If this doesn't sound like it is for you then maybe revert to French press.


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## Mrboots2u

I'll say it again - Rupert perhaps this isn't the forum for you ( in many many ways )

This may be more your style






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Please remember to use the right amount of instant coffee ( on level Tea spoon ) and water at 98.3 c tho


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## Missy

Dammit I've missed all the fun.

One last suggestion/query before we wave you on your way.

Please for the love of all things caffeinated please tell me you aren't boiling your kettle and dumping the water immediately onto your coffee?

You are looking at knocking 6-7degrees off the temperature. I boil the kettle, put the water in a jug then grind beans set up v60 etc.

I wouldn't dream of suggesting craziness like actually checking the temp, but leaving it to cool outside the kettle should help.


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## doolallysquiff

Missy said:


> Dammit I've missed all the fun.
> 
> One last suggestion/query before we wave you on your way.
> 
> Please for the love of all things caffeinated please tell me you aren't boiling your kettle and dumping the water immediately onto your coffee?
> 
> You are looking at knocking 6-7degrees off the temperature. I boil the kettle, put the water in a jug then grind beans set up v60 etc.
> 
> I wouldn't dream of suggesting craziness like actually checking the temp, but leaving it to cool outside the kettle should help.


Matt Perger = team boil. His reasoning is consistency and that fact the coffee was roasted to a whole lot higher temp than 100c.


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## Phil104

And many of us have a thermapen (some more than one, in different colours) for just such craziness as checking the temperature of the water. The next step from a thermapen is a temperature variable kettle.


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## Missy

Phil104 said:


> And many of us have a thermapen (some more than one, in different colours) for just such craziness as checking the temperature of the water. The next step from a thermapen is a temperature variable kettle.


Shocking. Personally I leave my water out in the sun and assume it's hot enough when I hear the rush hour traffic, I then sacrifice a sparrow to the coffee gods. None of these gadgets to make stuff taste better here thank you very much.


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## doolallysquiff

See water temp 7-8 mins in on video.


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## James811

Very interesting video. So he's saying that putting water straight off the boil onto the coffee won't harm it. Seems to have some good theory behind it too and it makes sense. I tend to let my water boil. Once it boils I grind my coffee and add it to whatever I'm brewing in. Weigh my water into my pourover jug and go it's always tasty and it's a consistent time from off the boil. I measure every so often to check and it's always 95 give or take 1 each way


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## MWJB

Being able to make coffee with boiling water was established decades ago, making it with steam is perhaps another matter (it's not so much that the water is cooler than roasting temp).

If your water is boiling, then added to a pouring kettle you lose heat, whilst you wait you lose heat, when it hits the coffee & brewer you lose heat. I have just measured a bunch of cuppings made with water poured at a rolling boil, it was difficult to get slurry temperatures much over 90C once all coffee & water were together. The CBI & Scott Rao have both written about allowing for temperature drop as the coffee dose absorbs heat from the brew water. The important thing is to get into a regime where you do everything the same.


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## Rupert

Jon said:


> You know MWJB is trying to help you with his posts?
> 
> He's very knowledgeable (and managed to get me making sweet and fruity coffee from a drip brewer!) - so personally, given his time/effort, I think saying or clicking 'Thanks' would be a better reply, ahead of any additional questions...


I have nothing but respect and thanks to MWJB for his advice and patience. Also Missy responses have been very helpful and I thank her.

the_partisan, James811, Step21, jlarkin, Phil104, jonbutler88 & doolallysquiff have also my thanks for their suggestions.

It was PPapa's post that I baulked at. For me that's just going way too far.

Note to Missy: I leave the boiled water about a couple of minutes before use.



MWJB said:


> If you choose to ignore the realities of drip brewing then you're likely to struggle. If this doesn't sound like it is for you then maybe revert to French press.


I checked my scales when I bought them and they're pretty spot on. A single bean weighs more than 0.1gm so to be that accurate means weighing after grinding. The 'realities of drip brewing' are indeed a step to far for me. I have to keep reminding myself that 'it's only a cup of coffee', not a scientific experiment but thanks anyway.

This morning I've made 3 coffees: 2 in the V60 (unpleasant and hardly drinkable) and 1 in the French press (delightful & the best coffee I've had in days).

So thank you all for your advice. Enjoy your coffee however you make it.


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## James811

'Enjoy your coffee however you make it' is exactly right @Rupert.

I also love a good French press coffee every so often









My other half used to work at Starbucks and when they re modelled in there she bought me a small A4 canvas with a painting of a French press on it and below it it says 'the birth of coffee' I love 'em


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