# New Coffee Van Business



## coffeehit78

Hello folks!

Sorry if this is a repeat of other threads previously but thought I should make a new one so everyone could see it.

So... unlike the previous thread about a new mobile coffee business, I have the experience of making coffee (3 years Pro Barista in Speciality Coffee) working in some great shops in Yorkshire with top coffee from roasters such as Square Mile, Workshop, Dark Woods etc. Although I have experience of making good coffee my technical experience with equipment and electrics is not so good.

Ideally I wanted to go down the route of opening my own shop but just finding it difficult with finance and I think a little lack of confidence, so thought it may be best to go down the mobile route for a bit to start with.

I'm here just to get some advice really as this forums seems full of people with lots of sound working knowledge.

What I have currently is a Toyota Hiace van (Reliable but not new) with a tailgate back door. My intention is to put a coffee machine, grinder, sink and jug wash in the back and serve coffee at events starting asap. I'm even thinking of going down the route of driving around business parks throughout the week to serve coffee to the corporate world. I'm based in the North East, approx 45 minute drive from Newcastle and so was thinking of Christmas Markets or finding a regular pitch on a weekend in a city.

My dilemma is that I already bought a machine back when I was thinking about opening a shop. It's a lovely machine Faema E61 Legend but it's not so suitable for mobile. It's a machine that I'm reluctant to sell as it fits with my business model when I eventually get round to doing it, so if I could use it it would be ideal. I've spoken to someone who has experience with this machine (technically, he's a lot more clued up than me) and he suggested not to downrate the machine but to just buy a generator that will power it. The max power of machine is like 4-4.5KW, I'd obviously need a grinder, and as the machine is single boiler it's not so great in recovery so would probably need either a separate hot water boiler for Americano or use a Fetco for batch filter as black coffee option. The generator I was looking at (although it's not silent diesel) its a more affordable and quieter petrol/LPG that I was going to run in the back of the van, piping out the exhaust.

Do you think I would be stupid to try an run this set up or should I just try and invest in something like a Fracino level machine, which I could run on LPG and leisure battery?

I would also be looking a weddings, which could be indoor and no way of lifting that beast. Does anyone know if the Fracino 2 groups are liftable by one person?

Would appreciate any advice. I'll keep this thread as my ongoing progress so can ask further questions.

Cheers,

Steve


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## MildredM

@coffeebean May be able to offer advice/equipment with this.

Apart from equipment have you looked into a street trading licence, waste licence, hygiene regs, insurance etc? These are a few things you could get on with while you simultaneously get your van equipped.


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## MildredM

To answer your last question - if you can comfortably lift between around 35-50kg depending on machine model and have long arms to get round a large machine then I think you'd struggle to lift it on your own.


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## coffeehit78

I've lifted worse but yeah was a pretty stupid question lol


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## coffeehit78

Will be looking into these. I have bit of experience with insurance and hygiene as I've done a mobile business in the past. Is the waste license you talk about for if you were street trading because it's commercial waste?


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## MildredM

coffeehit78 said:


> Will be looking into these. I have bit of experience with insurance and hygiene as I've done a mobile business in the past. Is the waste license you talk about for if you were street trading because it's commercial waste?


Yes. We run a very small business, a mobile Ice Cream trike, and even for that we had to have a trade waste licence (even though we don't actually generate any waste because the used plastic Ice Cream cartons go to a local school and the few cardboard boxes get reused for packing/posting boxes by a neighbour). Where we live we couldn't obtain the STL without having the TWL!


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## coffeehit78

Thanks for the info on that. Will look into it


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## 4515

MildredM said:


> Yes. We run a very small business, a mobile Ice Cream trike, and even for that we had to have a trade waste licence (even though we don't actually generate any waste because the used plastic Ice Cream cartons go to a local school and the few cardboard boxes get reused for packing/posting boxes by a neighbour). Where we live we couldn't obtain the STL without having the TWL!


Are you referring to a waste carriers license ?

I can see that you would need this as any packaging, waste cups etc would be classed as waste. A lot of companies fall foul of transporting waste without a carriers license.

Good news is that if the waste is generated by yourself then, generally speaking, a waste carriers license if free.


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## coffeebean

Pm your email address and I will send you some info and prices! Cheers, Andy


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## Instant no more !

Are you assuming you can just turn up at events and trade ? Car boot sales and markets have the usual traders who attend weekly normally paying a premium for the site annually

I tried on several occasions and found it a CLOSED shop , also check with the local council regarding street trading licences BEFORE spending any more money


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## MildredM

working dog said:


> Are you referring to a waste carriers license ?
> 
> I can see that you would need this as any packaging, waste cups etc would be classed as waste. A lot of companies fall foul of transporting waste without a carriers license.
> 
> Good news is that if the waste is generated by yourself then, generally speaking, a waste carriers license if free.


Not free here! We have to have a waste bin for the season, emptied every 2 weeks. When I say emptied, it's rare it gets put out because it's usually empty to start with!

Edit to add it isn't a waste carriers licence, it's a commercial waste licence


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## MildredM

Around here, North Lincolnshire, we pay about £80 per 3 months for our ur STL for named villages. It increased hugely if we wanted to trade in town (we didn't!). Being seasonal we didn't want a yearly licence and, annoyingly, they don't offer a 6 month licence. It's a palaver. North Lincs Council don't do this service online so everything has to be printed out, filled in, and the resulting dozen sheets of paper (including photos) sent to their office. Every time.


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## coffeehit78

Cheers Andy.


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## MildredM

@coffeehit78 you may be better sending your email by pm, and deleting off the forum, if you don't want a load of spam . . .


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## coffeehit78

Good idea. Can you tell I'm new to forums? I don't even know how to delete it haha!


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## Dumnorix

You should be able to edit your post to remove the address.


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## 4515

MildredM said:


> Not free here! We have to have a waste bin for the season, emptied every 2 weeks. When I say emptied, it's rare it gets put out because it's usually empty to start with!
> 
> Edit to add it isn't a waste carriers licence, it's a commercial waste licence


Ah yes. Commercial waste cant be disposed of in domestic waste. However, if you could demonstrate that all of your commercial waste is recycled by showing your waste transfer notes then I cant see how they could insist on you having a commercial waste bin.

If you are bringing waste back to the house from a venue then you would need a waste carriers license by the letter of the legislation. How many do this in similar situations will be very few. We have customers who thought that because their waste had a values (eg scrap metal, glass window panes) that they didn't need a waste carriers license - they now have one and waste transfer notes with all mobile teams.

What is this commercial waste license ? It isn't something that I have come across. Do you have a link to the application ?


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## coffeehit78

Cheers @Dumnorix Done that.


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## MildredM

working dog said:


> Ah yes. Commercial waste cant be disposed of in domestic waste. However, if you could demonstrate that all of your commercial waste is recycled by showing your waste transfer notes then I cant see how they could insist on you having a commercial waste bin.
> 
> If you are bringing waste back to the house from a venue then you would need a waste carriers license by the letter of the legislation. How many do this in similar situations will be very few. We have customers who thought that because their waste had a values (eg scrap metal, glass window panes) that they didn't need a waste carriers license - they now have one and waste transfer notes with all mobile teams.
> 
> What is this commercial waste license ? It isn't something that I have come across. Do you have a link to the application ?


We don't require a waste carriers licence.

A commercial waste licence: It's basically a large bin for commercial waste:

http://www.northlincs.gov.uk/bins-waste-recycling/commercial-waste-collection/commercial-waste-and-recycling-containers/


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## spoxehub

MildredM said:


> We don't require a waste carriers licence.
> 
> A commercial waste licence: It's basically a large bin for commercial waste:
> 
> http://www.northlincs.gov.uk/bins-waste-recycling/commercial-waste-collection/commercial-waste-and-recycling-containers/


Do you mind me asking why you don't require a waste carriers license?


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## MildredM

spoxehub said:


> Do you mind me asking why you don't require a waste carriers license?


Not at all. It's because we don't dispose of any 3rd party waste, we only dispose of our own.


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## coffeebean

Different councils seem to have very different rules.... I don't need any licences at all here, just need to be checked by environmental health and registered with council......


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## MildredM

coffeebean said:


> Different councils seem to have very different rules.... I don't need any licences at all here, just need to be checked by environmental health and registered with council......


Is that just for events or street trading though?


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## coffeebean

I trade outside Aberdare rfc every day


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## MildredM

coffeebean said:


> I trade outside Aberdare rfc every day


On their forecourt/private land presumably. We need one to be on the road, and for the way we trade, just like any other mobile Ice Cream van. Then there's a peddler licence, granted by the police .....


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## 4515

MildredM said:


> We don't require a waste carriers licence.
> 
> A commercial waste licence: It's basically a large bin for commercial waste:
> 
> http://www.northlincs.gov.uk/bins-waste-recycling/commercial-waste-collection/commercial-waste-and-recycling-containers/


Thanks for that. This isn't a license though, its a commercial bin. You are not duty bound to buy this service from the council. Any waste collection company can provide this. Some may be cheaper than the council. We manage a little commercial waste of this nature but it isn't our core business - that's more hazardous and difficult wastes.

The definition of waste is :

"any substance or object which the holder discards or intends or is required to discard"

This includes items that would be recycled

In your case I would say that empty boxes, containers, disposable gloves, melted ice cream would be wastes and, by the letter of the waste framework directive, would mean that you need a waste carriers license if you are moving it (pedal power or otherwise).

As I suggested earlier, not many in your situation would have a carriers license.

A bit of bedtime reading can be found on "waste framework directive" and "right waste right place"


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## 4515

MildredM said:


> Not at all. It's because we don't dispose of any 3rd party waste, we only dispose of our own.


I would suggest reading up on your legal obligations.


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## MildredM

working dog said:


> I would suggest reading up on your legal obligations.


After lengthy discussions with several departments at North Lincs Council I am more than happy that we comply both with the spirit and letter of the law.


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## 4515

MildredM said:


> After lengthy discussions with several departments at North Lincs Council I am more than happy that we comply both with the spirit and letter of the law.


Unfortunately the council do not understand waste legislation. Sometimes the EA don't understand it either (long story about us defending one of our customers against the EA and, after a six figure legal bill for the customer, we won). It would be worth speaking to your local environment agency and seeking their advice.

The EA are clamping down on waste and, whilst I don't see your business as a prime target or an offender, its always good to be squeaky clean. And as I mentioned earlier it doesn't cost you anything to register.



"any substance or object which the holder discards or intends or is required to discard"
​
If you do any of this ^^ , you need to register. There are exemptions, coffee grounds being one of them.


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## 4515

Apologies @MildredM - you wouldnt need a waste carriers license for the level of waste that you are moving but it should be moved on a waste transfer note


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## MildredM

working dog said:


> Apologies @MildredM - you wouldnt need a waste carriers license for the level of waste that you are moving but it should be moved on a waste transfer note


It is. Part of the waste management contract/agreement with North Lincs Council included completion of a waste transfer note which effectively appointed North Lincs Council Waste Management as the waste carrier. In reality we don't generate waste when out and about trading.

The only physical waste which we dispose of is the prime packaging which remains on our premises.

As with many many discussions on forums it is difficult to convey every point in a few desultory lines









To the op my advice remains, weak the advice of all the relevant departments and bodies in your area. And don't rely on hearsay however well intentioned.


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## awlred

How are you looking at heating you machine, Electric/generator or gas?


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## coffeehit78

The machine I currently have isn't dual fuel so would have to be looking at big petrol generator to in the back of the van with an exhaust running through the floor to get rid of fumes. Don't think I can justify buying another machine as just don't have the budget for that.


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## coffeebean

What sort of budget do you have? Generator that size is going to be noisy!!


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## awlred

An adequate petrol generator will fairly large and very loud, I would not want it in a van with me, I usually put it as far away as possible. On our events we try and get site electric, but if you're not looking at doing events and street trading or pop-out trading it's something to consider. May be worth looking at your local hardware hire shop for them to help you figure out your power draw and appropriate generator options, as they will have a lot more experience


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## coffeehit78

awlred said:


> An adequate petrol generator will fairly large and very loud, I would not want it in a van with me, I usually put it as far away as possible. On our events we try and get site electric, but if you're not looking at doing events and street trading or pop-out trading it's something to consider. May be worth looking at your local hardware hire shop for them to help you figure out your power draw and appropriate generator options, as they will have a lot more experience


Aye. I know what you're saying. If I had the money I'd rather have a gas machine in the van. Maybe best to look at a loan. I'd like to be flexible, which that set was hoping to be but maybe I could get a one group dual machine to start with then at least if I do indoor or weddings it's transportable. Obviously would have to look at numbers with a one group. Then if I do festivals or big events I could put the big machine in if I'm ready with a plug and play socket.


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## buzz

I've just finished building my van - and it was only ever going to be a gas machine for me.

Id recommend an older lever machine running on gas. I know its not cheap, but some on ebay £1200 - 2000. Plus you get a talking point for your customers and an easy (er) machine to fix.

I just don't see a noisy generator or relying on mains hookup being a viable option - in my humble opinion.

If you have any questions feel free to ask, as iv spent an unhealthy amount of time researching all aspects of a mobile setup.

Any pictures of yours?

Edit - i didnt see you mention what grinder you're going for. Id avoid an on demand. A motor can draw upto 7 times its wattage on startup - so if you're starting it 100 times a day you will need a lot of batteries.

I couldn't use my Mythos due to this, and the fact its 800w , but even a 350w on demand would be drawing over 2000w each start up.

So im using a Mazzer with a doser. Sadly.


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## Emz123456

Hi there,

we are looking at starting a new coffee /sandwich van business, my bro in law is the general manager of a big site employing 400 ppl , they are wanting a coffee delivery service at that site, after speaking to friends and family we have had another two requests for large scale sites/units that are desperate for a mobile service. We have always had a interest in catering and dipped in and out and are very passionate about coffee. As a total newbie to this game I would be so appreciate any advice , van type, franchise? Conversion specialists, hints tips , things to watch out for etc. I feel a bit overwhelmed with it all at the mo but have a feeling we could be on to something good.

Thank you I'm advance

p.s I could t find out how to do a new forum post so apologies if I've jumped in on someone's thread.

Xx


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## coffeebean

Emz123456 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> we are looking at starting a new coffee /sandwich van business, my bro in law is the general manager of a big site employing 400 ppl , they are wanting a coffee delivery service at that site, after speaking to friends and family we have had another two requests for large scale sites/units that are desperate for a mobile service. We have always had a interest in catering and dipped in and out and are very passionate about coffee. As a total newbie to this game I would be so appreciate any advice , van type, franchise? Conversion specialists, hints tips , things to watch out for etc. I feel a bit overwhelmed with it all at the mo but have a feeling we could be on to something good.
> 
> Thank you I'm advance
> 
> p.s I could t find out how to do a new forum post so apologies if I've jumped in on someone's thread.
> 
> Xx


Pm me your email address and I can quote you for everything! Andy


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