# Machine choice £1000-£1300



## resman

Hello all,

My 16 year old Silvia hiccuped yesterday when the internal mains wiring burnt out- now fixed but started me wondering about upgrading.

I've got a budget of around £1300, plumbing is possible and I tend to make more milk drinks than espresso. Grinder is a Mignon.

1st draft shortlist is:

La Spaz Mini Vivaldi S1

ECM Barista

Rocket V3 PID

Expobar Brewtus

What you go for and why? Happy to hear any other suggestions too.

Thanks

Simon


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## coffeechap

Used Londinium 1, there is one in the for sale section.


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## coffeebean

Rotary plumbed Brewtus £1150 to Forum members.....


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## PeterF

Expobar Brewtus DB PID. Excellent machine with build quality to match. Very easy to use.


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## jeebsy

I love how in these threads people just recommend whatever they have


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## froggystyle

Gaggia classic, then go pub with the rest!


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## Mrboots2u

Any of those listed machines will make the coffee making life a bit easier and quicker .. ( no temp surfing, pre infusion , large boilers for steaming and no waiting )

I had a Silvia for a short while , well done making it last also long , and well done not letting making milk drinks on it send you bonkers .....









Anyway Those listed factors above will allow you to make drinks quicker and more consistently and with less hassle than a Silvia.

Would you also consider changing grinder for some potential additional " in the cup " benefits or do you have limited space and WAF to contend with ?


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## 4085

jeebsy said:


> I love how in these threads people just recommend whatever they have


It is a forum jeebsy! Very little advice is given. You just end up being told what the individual has as each believes that there kit is the dogs .......!


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## jeebsy

dfk41 said:


> It is a forum jeebsy! Very little advice is given. You just end up being told what the individual has as each believes that there kit is the dogs .......!


Some objectivity would be nice, ie "I have this machine, i like this about it but not this". I really like my brewtus but it is a bit rattley. Vibe pump variant is supposed to be quite noisy too.


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## Mrboots2u

Trip To BB , they should have at least 2-3 or the machines your after..

La Spaz is a bit different as the only non e61 machine in your list, so works slightly differently , and has different basket size , so will need new tampers etc

This may or may not bother you ...


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## ronsil

dfk41 said:


> Very little advice is given. You just end up being told what the individual has


Not necessarily. It is very difficult for people to advise on machines they have not personally owned or handled.

You may wish to put some of your budget towards a grinder, new or secondhand.

You may barely 'get away' with a Rocky or similar with the Silvia but move up from her & a good grinder becomes essential.

So&#8230; I don't own a La Spaziale Vivaldi anymore BUT after 8 years with one I can recommended as an excellent value work horse which will not let you down & capable of producing excellent espresso.. It punches far above its weight pricewise. Vibe pump on the Mini, rotary pump on the S1.

Possible to plumb in the S1 which is a big asset


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## 4085

ronsil said:


> Not necessarily. It is very difficult for people to advise on machines they have not personally owned or handled.
> 
> You may wish to put some of your budget towards a grinder, new or secondhand.
> 
> You may barely 'get away' with a Rocky or similar with the Silvia but move up from her & a good grinder becomes essential.
> 
> So&#8230; I don't own a La Spaziale Vivaldi anymore BUT after 8 years with one I can recommended as an excellent value work horse which will not let you down & capable of producing excellent espresso.. It punches far above its weight pricewise. Vibe pump on the Mini, rotary pump on the S1.
> 
> Possible to plumb in the S1 which is a big asset


Ron, it is a fact. On here,. when people ask for advice, on the whole they do not get advice. They get a personal experience. Some advice of course is given out on here and it is often very good advice, but I still say on the whole, you get personal opinion which is not the same thing.


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## jeebsy

dfk41 said:


> Ron, it is a fact. On here,. when people ask for advice, on the whole they do not get advice. They get a personal experience. Some advice of course is given out on here and it is often very good advice, but I still say on the whole, you get personal opinion which is not the same thing.


Playing with semantics here. If people say they chose their machine for this reason, they like these features, but this is annoying, that's advice. You don't have to do a full comparative review of the market for it to be advice. If the OP gets a few of those for each machine it will help him to form an opinion on what machine might suit him best.

If someone comes on and says i'm thinking about a Classic, I make 15 lattes a day and someone tells them the Classic isn't up to it, that's advice. "I have a Brewtus, it's great, get one of them" is still advice, albeit unhelpful advice.

Even if you go to a financial advisor, they're giving you an opinion on what they consider to the most suitable products for you. Opinion and advice are almost the same.


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## 4085

Even if you go to a financial advisor, they're giving you an opinion on what they consider to the most suitable products for you. Opinion and advice are almost the same.

A financial advisor ought to listen to you, ask questions and then come up with a plan to see if he can tick the boxes required, then put it all in writing and in 20 years have his arse sued off when the Regulator does a U turn!. Hardly the same thing!


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## jeebsy

dfk41 said:


> A financial advisor ought to listen to you, ask questions and then come up with a plan to see if he can tick the boxes required


Some people (mrboots mainly as he seems to be more patience than most) ask questions to try to narrow things down in these scenarios


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## 4085

jeebsy said:


> Some people (mrboots mainly as he seems to be more patience than most) ask questions to try to narrow things down in these scenarios


I agree......but for every one Mr Boots, there are 10 others!


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## jeebsy

Agree with that.


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## coffeechap

jeebsy said:


> I love how in these threads people just recommend whatever they have


Oh sorry, used gs3 mp, a tub of grease and a couple of favours!

I don't have an L1 right now but am quite partial to them!


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## coffeechap

jeebsy said:


> I love how in these threads people just recommend whatever they have


my comment for the benefit of the OP was based on a thread that I did on what you get for your money, I have always been an advocate of buy a good used machine or grinder for that matter, as you are going to get a lot more for your money, even a machine that you would not have even considered before.

Expobar brewtus - bang for buck is a fab dual boiler that wil give you temperature stability, good steaming, doesn't look to bad, but as mentioned before the fit and feel is not as good as the top end dual boilers, these are however £500 out of your price range. ( possibility to have a rotary pump plumbed or run from a tank)

Rocket Giotto - super sexy looks,rotary pump. HX, so regardless of the PID you will need a small cooling flush each shot, not impressed with the build quality of the rocket and had to change over parts on the one I had on my bench for a while.

La spatziale - again dual boiler but has been said the s1 is the better variant, very capable in the cup, dual bioiller stability and pid control. Accessories are less readily available as the group is 53mm not 58mm

ECM Barista- nice build quality, HX machine, better in the cup than the rocket IMHO.


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## jeebsy

coffeechap said:


> my comment for the benefit of the OP was based on a thread that I did on what you get for your money


My comment wasn't aimed at you, you're one of the few people who could pass comment on pretty everything


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## twotone

Doubt you'll get a better coffee machine for circa £1000 than the EXpobar DB, it ain't exactly rocket science no pun intended.

I struggled with a Gaggia Classic for seven years cause I mistakenly thought that the next upgrade was to a Rancillo Silvia, when I went to ask the guys in ES about a dual boiler machine and told them my budget (£500) they just laughed, talk about being out of my depth

I am still utterly amazed at what the Expobar and a good grinder is capable of, I'm now drinking the best coffee in my life thanks to the guys at ES and you guys on here.

Beans, did I mention beans?


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## resman

Very much appreciate all your comments- based on them the shortlist apears to narrow to the Vivaldi Mini or the ECM Barista with a Brewtus in third place. The defining difference between the first two is the E61 group in the ECM, and the electronics in the Vivaldi.

Having never had an E61 machine, how much difference does the E61 make other than it is simple to maintain?

One a similar note, given that my Silvia has been through 2 pumps and 2 boilers in its life (and I had to re-wire it last night), the simplicity of the ECM feels attractive, and the complexity of the Vivaldi a slight worry- or am I barking up non-existant tree?

Simon


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## 7493

E61 based machines are relatively simple and cost effective to maintain. I am currently on my second one. To judge from other people's experiences on here the Vivaldi is a more commercial machine and appears to be very reliable. Appearance is an issue. The Vivaldi is less 'shiny shiny' than the other two. The dual boiler machines are arguably easier to use than the HX Barista. I have gone from a single boiler E61 machine to an HX and, while the HX is quicker because you don't have to wait for it to get to steam temp and back down again there is still the issue of cooling flushes. In the absence of a thermometer this seems a bit hit and miss to me. Ultimately I won't be happy until I have a dual boiler or maybe a lever but the HX was too good a deal to miss. In your position I would almost certainly go for the Brewtus as much because I prefer the look of it as for any other reason. I suspect the Vivaldi is probably a better machine in terms of build and longevity I just don't like the look of it as much.


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## coffeebean

Fracino make the Londinium - have you ever considered a Fracino Retro?


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## coffeechap

coffeebean said:


> Fracino make the Londinium - have you ever considered a Fracino Retro?


Have you ever tried them side by side? Not in the same league


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## Mrboots2u

as the name will tell you Spazbarista ( formely know as expobarista ) Went from a brewtus to a La Spaz machine ( Ronsils old one ) . Perhaps drop him a pm to get a feel for his experiences with the two machines..


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## coffeebean

coffeechap said:


> Have you ever tried them side by side? Not in the same league


not in the same price bracket either though.......


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## coffeechap

coffeebean said:


> not in the same price bracket either though.......


Agreed but would you want that size boiler on, with the extra costs and the extra size? Are you setiously recommended this as a home machine?


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## coffeebean

True enough Dave!


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## coffeebean

I would consider an Ariete though. Big step up from a Silvia, has lovely wooden flick valves and E61 group with lever and you would have a fair bit of change left over from your budget!


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## bongo

I was pondering this myself not too long ago. About a year to be exact. I had and still own a Gaggia classic and a europicola. I Wanted to step up and was looking at the fraccino piccino or similar, until I had some good info and advice from members on this forum.

I was then recommended to look at the expobar DB. Second hand, I picked one up for £750 in mint condition, posted, with a few extras, like vst baskets and bottomless pf.

as has been mentioned, it is rattley due to being the vibe pump version. So since you can plumb it in I would go for a rotary pump version. Otherwise I wouldn't change it for the world (I would change it for a vesuvius. In case anyone would like to swap).

steaming is a piece of piss. I literally tuck the nipple of the wand just into the milk and leave it unattended while I butter my toast, go back and I've great microfoam. The pid is easy to adjust, and it's also smaller than many other machines in its class and price range.

a rotary would likely cost more 2nd hand, and may be a long wait to find one, but a new one is within your budget.

i can not speak for other machines. But since it's my opinion which counts most*, get a Expobar DB rotary.

* others opinions are ignored. This opinion is important to me. It is my opinion. Are you still reading this. If you are I am now simply wasting your time. La la la la la. You could have ordered the bloody machine by now. Are you still here? Really? WTF.

I'm off. Bored now.


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## resman

Thanks all for suggestions/experiences.

One question about the Vivaldi that may be crucial- I've heard that the 53mm PF will not allow dosing of greater than 16gm- but I've also heard that there is no need to updose BECAUSE of the smaller PF. Given that a typical lighter roast would be dosed at 19gm for approx 34gm out, how much should this be worrying me?

Simon


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## Mrboots2u

resman said:


> Thanks all for suggestions/experiences.
> 
> One question about the Vivaldi that may be crucial- I've heard that the 53mm PF will not allow dosing of greater than 16gm- but I've also heard that there is no need to updose BECAUSE of the smaller PF. Given that a typical lighter roast would be dosed at 19gm for approx 34gm out, how much should this be worrying me?
> 
> Simon


I dont know what the max dose for a La Spaz is but ....

Light coffees dont need to be a certain dose , or updosed

You could replicate that 19 g into 34 g with a smaller dose 16g into 28-29g , tasty drink just less of it...

Plenty of cafes use spaz machines to great effect.

Roasters tend to recommend doses and outputs based on 58mm commercial machines with large baskets , doesn't hurt for cafe's to use more of their coffee, plus there was a trend for updosing lighter roaster coffee and making shorter drinks from them ...

The theory is now with lighter roasts to use a larger brew ratio to get sweeter more balanced cup . you need a capable grinder for this ( some would say flat burr....)

So 16g into 32 g for an example .....

No reason why a skilled operator , with decent coffee, and good grinder , can't make tasty light roasted coffee inot drinks from any machine and any dose ( within reason )...


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## ronsil

When I had the La Spaz I used a 21g, also known as the triple, IMS basket.

My average dose used to be circa 20g & it worked well. No problem with the standard basket dosing at 18g


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## Mrboots2u

Cheers Ron....was that with a naked it spouted pf.....


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## ronsil

Easy fit with a naked PF.

Imported a special twin spout 53mm PF from USA to fit the triple. The standard PF is just a little small in depth.


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## resman

Sorry for the delayed response on this, thanks to all, esp Coffechap, Boots and Ronsil, for all the helpful advice.

I finally pulled the trigger on a Mini Vivaldi- got a great deal from Rokib at Coffee Omega, and it arrived yesterday- excellent service. All looking good, just need to get a decent 53mm tamper now....

Simon


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## Daren

resman said:


> Sorry for the delayed response on this, thanks to all, esp Coffechap, Boots and Ronsil, for all the helpful advice.
> 
> I finally pulled the trigger on a Mini Vivaldi- got a great deal from Rokib at Coffee Omega, and it arrived yesterday- excellent service. All looking good, just need to get a decent 53mm tamper now....
> 
> Simon


Pictures - or it didn't happen!

We all love a bit of coffee porn...


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## resman

Here you go...

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Simon


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## jeebsy

Nice pf handle


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## Daren

Nice - let the fun begin


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