# ECM Barista v Rocket Appartemento



## JaiDee (Aug 3, 2017)

Hi folks,

New to the forum and looking for some advice. Basically spent months researching and frankly dreaming about a new machine set up for the home.

I'm interested in coffee and passionate about it - but dont have infinite budget (say roughly £1500). I am not massively interested in dialling in each shot each time to perfection - mainly just producing quality espresso consistently at home for double espresso, machiatto etc.

With this in mind I have originally been looking at the Rocket Appartemento which looks great but the guys at bella barista have put me onto the ECM Barista which apparently is better built and is a bit more consistent. I currently use a baratza encore for my v60 and aeropress but been told this is next to useless for espresso so I will need a new grinder. I have been told the Eureka Mignon Mk11 is a great entry level bit of kit so I have been looking at this but tempted by the jump up in quality by a mazzer mini or mazzer super jolly - also thinking perhaps I can source a quality mazzer second hand for the price of a new eureka?

So - anybody out there any thoughts on the overall setup? Has anybody tried both the appartemento and ECM barista side by side for comparison? How much better is a mazzer really going to be over a eureka in terms of grind?

I assume I will be able to create great espresso at home with basic barista skills with machines like this?

Any help is appreciated as I am now lost in the coffee world with the infinite amount of options and possibilities - profitec 500 also mentioned as great!!!


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

Can't help choose really but I do have a ECM machine myself and it's super. Is there much difference in specs?


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## pcvburgess (Sep 4, 2015)

Both of those machines will be able to deliver you great coffee. If counter space is an issue then the Rocket may be the better bet (the Mignon is as small as grinders go). Getting a used Super Jolly and single dosing is a cost effective grinder solution. There are plenty of second hand ones out there so you won't have to look for long. This is what I've been using (with a Rocket Cellini), though I'm thinking of changing the grinder for a Eureka Atom - for reasons of convenience rather than grind.


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## GengisKhan (May 8, 2017)

I had roughly the same budget and got the rocket and an second hand mazzer mini electronic A. To be honest both the ECM and rocket have E61 group heads so the quality of the coffee in your cup will be more determined by your grinder and tamping technique than the machine.

Can't comment on the ECM build quality but the rocket has been fine so far and don't think anyone on this forum has had any issues around that. Ideally see if you can try both out and see which one you prefer.


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## JaiDee (Aug 3, 2017)

Deansie26 said:


> Can't help choose really but I do have a ECM machine myself and it's super. Is there much difference in specs?


Not really - as said below they are both E61's but the ECM is £200 more expensive - not fully sure why - I think it may be finished slightly better?


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## JaiDee (Aug 3, 2017)

This is basically what I am debating doing.

Do you regret going for the Rocket? Obviously looks amazing! Not so keen on the plastic cup rack right enough! Did you go appartemento then or another model?

Did you source the mazzer mini from this forum and what should I be looking for in a used one - e.g. what kind of lifespan do burrs usually have? I guess the grind from this will be better than off a Eureka MK11?

Thanks all for your input.


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## GengisKhan (May 8, 2017)

JaiDee said:


> This is basically what I am debating doing.
> 
> Do you regret going for the Rocket? Obviously looks amazing! Not so keen on the plastic cup rack right enough! Did you go appartemento then or another model?
> 
> ...


No regrets the rockets been great! Its easy to use and with my basic technique I'm pulling some good shots. I took the plastic rack off but you can buy a metal one if it really bothers. I choose the rocket as it was the perfect size for my kitchen and I couldn't really justify the next step up in the range (I had my heart set on getting a rocket machine).

I got the mazzer from the forum and usually anyone selling things here provides a very accurate description on its condition so there is that piece of mind. Generally I think they are good for 300kg of coffee! but someone much more informed on the site could verify that. Pretty sure there are threads covering the whole topic as well.

I haven't used a Eureka, but just search the site for the info.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

JaiDee said:


> Not really - as said below they are both E61's but the ECM is £200 more expensive - not fully sure why - I think it may be finished slightly better?


If you think like that, you can buy a Expobar dual boiler roughly the same price. You can even get an HX version for cheaper.

At the end of the day it boils down to engineering, finishing, aesthetics, quality of components & workmanship.

If GBP 200 is not a concern, pick the one that appeals to you the most.

When I bought my machines (first a Rocket then Profitec), I had an Expobar HX in mind. Got to Bella Barista and simply didn't like the look of it nor the looks of the R58, both great machines no doubt. But that's just me.


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## JaiDee (Aug 3, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If you think like that, you can buy a Expobar dual boiler roughly the same price. You can even get an HX version for cheaper.
> 
> At the end of the day it boils down to engineering, finishing, aesthetics, quality of components & workmanship.
> 
> ...


What is the Profitec like? That is interesting that you bought Rocket first and then moved on to Profitec - did you find issues with the Rocket or didn't meet your expectations / requirements?

My heart says Rocket but my head is telling me the consistency may be found in a profitec / ECM's. I am bloody lost - this is why I am turning to you good folks to help me make a decision!


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

If the spec is pretty much the same go with what you will like looking at the most on your work top when you walk past in the morning as you will be eye balling it more than an attractive lady for a few months, your other half will be getting jealous lol. You won't taste the difference in the cup, I went Emc as I wanted a machine with volumetric features and joy sticks rather than wheels so had clear must haves.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

JaiDee said:


> What is the Profitec like? That is interesting that you bought Rocket first and then moved on to Profitec - did you find issues with the Rocket or didn't meet your expectations / requirements?
> 
> My heart says Rocket but my head is telling me the consistency may be found in a profitec / ECM's. I am bloody lost - this is why I am turning to you good folks to help me make a decision!


The above summarises well.

I initially got a Rocket Cellini Evo2, which is a great machine. It was my first "proper"machine and one of the valves in the e61 was making a noise, which I didn't like. Basically I think all it needed was lubrication. After one month with that machine, one thing that I didn't enjoy was cooling flushes when using bottled water. The particular machine I had (I can't comment about others) required a 120ml (4oz) cooling flush, which broke my heart seeing that amount of bottled water going down the drain. As BB offered me the option to choose another machine if I wanted to, I realised that a Dual Boiler for me was the best option. I didn't quite like the looks of the Rocket R58, so the choice was between the Pro-700 and the QM Verona. So I went for the Pro-700.

Some say that a well tuned HX machine does not need a long cooling flush at all. Obviously cooling flush is not much of an issue when the machine is plumbed in.

Think well between those two architectures before you purchase your machine. I've been happy with my DB for the past 2 years.


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

I agree with mediumroast in what he says about bottled water, if your in a hard water where bottled is needed save your your pennies for a DB for sure. Flushes are nothing for me but if I had to use bottled it would be a different story.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

re the argument as to whether Rocket or ECM.......let BB guide you........they sell both and are responsible for the warranty on both. I could elaborate but would just start an argument, so lets say in my view, they are suggesting ECM for a reason


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Wonder of @DavecUK has any opinions, as he might have tested them (and others) for reviews?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dave has a dislike of Rocket so I doubt he will have much to say. In the days of raffles, I actually won an Evolutzione. The steam tap fell off after a week. Well built indeed!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rhys said:


> Wonder of @DavecUK has any opinions, as he might have tested them (and others) for reviews?


If it's about the 2 machines mentioned in the title of the thread, I tested the ECM Barista, a nice machine....The Apatmento I have not tested, but here is something to think about.


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## JaiDee (Aug 3, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> If it's about the 2 machines mentioned in the title of the thread, I tested the ECM Barista, a nice machine....The Apatmento I have not tested, but here is something to think about.


Thanks all for the input! Helpful. I am swaying towards the ECM. Based in Glasgow so using bottled water I dont believe is necessary for me - so cooling flushes okay with me. I will go scope out DB machines to see if there is anything comparable at the price and also check out the dimensions of these machines as I think that's what DavecUK was referring to!

Anybody know of any BB discount codes or anything like this - do they tend to come down on price at all e.g. anybody had any experience in asking for 5-10% off to seal a deal or something like this? They can only say no - right?

I am also swaying towards a second hand mazzer mini - would folk generally agree the grind on this is much superior to that of the Eureka MK11?

Thanks again


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

We don't need bottled in Glasgow with the water being so soft. The two double boilers in your price bracket that spring to mind are the Sage and Expobar-depends then if you like their looks. I have came across a few threads with problems with the Sage machines now, this may be just because their being used in hard water areas or that as they are relatively new to the market the honeymoon period is coming to an end, although rarely to never do you hear of an Expobar having problems,

Nothing to lose by asking BB but I could only get a discount if I bought a grinder/espresso machine package.

Might depend on their stock etc


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

That softness of water might not be the best for tasty though. I mean it's really soft.

Nominal volvic might give a better balancre. If your gonna plumb then it isn't scale I'd be worried about but what it's actually extracting as espresso.


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

Awe for god's sake MrBoots, I'm going to have buy some volvic now to be sure I'm not missing something lol


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Deansie26 said:


> Awe for god's sake MrBoots, I'm going to have buy some volvic now to be sure I'm not missing something lol


Sorry.. all the guys i know in glasgow use some form of non tap water...Do you drinker brewed also ? if so may be a simpler way to start and compare.


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Sorry.. all the guys i know in glasgow use some form of non tap water...Do you drinker brewed also ? if so may be a simpler way to start and compare.


Only espresso, we have been drinking the same CC blend for a while now so should be able to taste a difference if noticeable, with my palette anyway. Will let you know,


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Deansie26 said:


> Only espresso, we have been drinking the same CC blend for a while now so should be able to taste a difference if noticeable, with my palette anyway. Will let you know,


Is it one of their super dark roasts


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Is it one of their super dark roasts


Mahogany roast Malabar hit, is a fav for us. Not so much into lighter coffees.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Deansie26 said:


> Mahogany roast Malabar hit, is a fav for us. Not so much into lighter coffees.


Might not make a huge difference thosr coffees are easy to extract... But give it a go.


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

What would be an example of a more difficult coffee out of curiosity?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Deansie26 said:


> What would be an example of a more difficult coffee out of curiosity?


Not about difficult per se, but probably anything that isnt Mahogany roast level. With MM it can require a fine grind so the very dark roast levels probably help get stuff out go it . It's horses for courses and everyone's taste buds are different but for me I have tried a few mahogany roasted coffee's and i can't tell the difference between any of them. Then again this may be the same as the person who has tried African coffee and feels they are all " acidic and sour " . its hard to tell as you never know what brew recipes people are using, when they make anecdotal comments like that...

Darker roasted coffee is easier to extract stuff from , coarser grind , possibly shorter brew ratios , than coffee that isnt that dark.

Soft water will struggle to get some of the good stuff out of the coffee though , whether it be dark or light roasted... Again try some volvic and see if it's any different , nothing to loose .


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I use nothing but Volvic in my La Pavoni as I could see scale starting to build up when I used Brita Filtered for a while out of a jug. Water tasted funny as well.. Back to Volvic and everything is right with the world


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## JaiDee (Aug 3, 2017)

Deansie26 said:


> Only espresso, we have been drinking the same CC blend for a while now so should be able to taste a difference if noticeable, with my palette anyway. Will let you know,


CC blend? Let me in on this - what is this?

Let me know if you notice any difference using bottle water. Complex business this for a guy who just wants some decent espresso!

So which way are folks leaning - putting it to a vote - ECM v Rocket? Eureka MK11 v Mazzer Mini?

Again just looking for some quality kit that will produce quality coffee consistently


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

JaiDee said:


> Thanks all for the input! Helpful. I am swaying towards the ECM. Based in Glasgow so using bottled water I dont believe is necessary for me - so cooling flushes okay with me. I will go scope out DB machines to see if there is anything comparable at the price and also check out the dimensions of these machines as I think that's what DavecUK was referring to!


I'm referring to internal space within the machine.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Ok in terms of votes.

Ecm for the machine - the quality will keep you smiling forever ;-)

Grinder - if it has to fit under cabinets then mignon otherwise mazzer.


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## TrickyDicky (Dec 11, 2016)

I bought a Mignon after BB advice and in the end my cheap espresso pump machine was sacked. I bought an Aeropress for my current coffee but went to BB for advice on a new machine. My head was Expobar HX and heart was Rocket Appartamento. I came out realising the ECM Barista was for me.

I know there are better grinders than the Mignon but i love mine and cannot wait to upgrade my daily coffee to the ECM machine.


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