# To PID or not to PID, that is the question...



## Norberto

I have decided that Silvia will be my first decent espresso machine at home, and will be paired with a Baratza Vario. Now the next question is, should I go PID or not for this single boiler. I am a 95% espresso drinker, with the occasional macchiato (italian short style!). I live in Mexico, but I can get a brand new Silvia with PID from the states without voiding the warranty, or course for an extra 250 bucks! what do you say?


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## MrShades

Do it!


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## Jumbo Ratty

would the PID be fitted inside the existing Silvias housing or in a box on the side ?

If its *not* in a box on the side id consider it, but the exchange rate (if ive worked it out correct) means this will cost about an extra £165.

integral = worth it









external = not worth it


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## Norberto

Jumbo Ratty said:


> would the PID be fitted inside the existing Silvias housing or in a box on the side ?
> 
> If its *not* in a box on the side id consider it, but the exchange rate (if ive worked it out correct) means this will cost about an extra £165.


the small Auber PID controller sits right next to the brewhead. The pre infusion aspect of the PID is alluring.


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## Jumbo Ratty

I totally agree with the PID being a worthy addition, especially with the pre infusion. Just if i was paying someone to fit it I would want it set internally considering it can be done.

Is that some trunking to the left side of the PID ? if so that looks clumsy to me


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## Norberto

Jumbo Ratty said:


> I totally agree with the PID being a worthy addition, especially with the pre infusion. Just if i was paying someone to fit it I would want it set internally considering it can be done.
> 
> Is that some trunking to the left side of the PID ? if so that looks clumsy to me


I am not sure what that is, it looks awfully sluggish to me. Maybe I should just get it stock, enjoy the honeymoon and then try to fit one in myself as many have done here... the pre infusion is the feature which is tempting me...


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## MrShades

The pre-infusion does nothing that your finger can't.

It simply turns the brew switch off and then on again - and anyone can do that with the switch on the front.

IMO the pre-infusion isn't what makes a PID interesting at all, it's the accurate temp control.

If you're concerned with the aesthetics then fit the PID externally, but on the back of the machine - out of sight. You set and forget most of the time anyway, and I don't think I've touched the PID on my Classic (or my Duetto) for months.


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## Olliehulla

MrShades said:


> The pre-infusion does nothing that your finger can't.
> 
> It simply turns the brew switch off and then on again - and anyone can do that with the switch on the front.
> 
> IMO the pre-infusion isn't what makes a PID interesting at all, it's the accurate temp control.
> 
> If you're concerned with the aesthetics then fit the PID externally, but on the back of the machine - out of sight. You set and forget most of the time anyway, and I don't think I've touched the PID on my Classic (or my Duetto) for months.


this, all day long.

I PID'd my Silvia and it was the best thing I did in the 2.5yrs of ownership. Removes so much of the faff and markedly improved my chances of getting a decent shot on a regular basis.


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## Norberto

MrShades said:


> The pre-infusion does nothing that your finger can't.
> 
> It simply turns the brew switch off and then on again - and anyone can do that with the switch on the front.
> 
> IMO the pre-infusion isn't what makes a PID interesting at all, it's the accurate temp control.
> 
> If you're concerned with the aesthetics then fit the PID externally, but on the back of the machine - out of sight. You set and forget most of the time anyway, and I don't think I've touched the PID on my Classic (or my Duetto) for months.


this PID actually takes over the controls (manual switches) since is has timers so I am not sure that having it in the back is the best option. How does the PID work when frothing milk? Must if be shut off or deactivated to raise temp in the boiler and then switch back on for the brewing?


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## Jumbo Ratty

Heres one that fits inside and you control it with your phone ! Looks really easy to fit.

Bargain at 119 euros https://mecoffee.nl/order/


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## Norberto

Jumbo Ratty said:


> Heres one that fits inside and you control it with your phone ! Looks really easy to fit.
> 
> Bargain at 119 euros https://mecoffee.nl/order/


this looks pretty neat! ;-)


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## frandavi99

I've fitted my PID like the one in @Norberto's pic (no idea what that rubber bit is though) and while I haven't touched it for ages I like being able to see the temp for when I'm getting back down after steaming milk for the wife.

Saved me a massive amount of time surfing every morning and improved my consistency (still rubbish but another variable removed at least). Never regretted not getting the pre-infusion model either.


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## MrShades

Norberto said:


> this PID actually takes over the controls (manual switches) since is has timers so I am not sure that having it in the back is the best option. How does the PID work when frothing milk? Must if be shut off or deactivated to raise temp in the boiler and then switch back on for the brewing?


For preinfusion, the PID will be controllable so that you can set timers - yes - but this simply means that it controls the brew switch for you rather than you pressing it with your finger, so the brew switch is automatically "on" for X seconds, and then automatically "off" for Y seconds, and then automatically on again for the main extraction until you turn the switch off. As I said, it's nothing that you can't do by pressing the brew switch on the front on/off manually.

When steaming you'll simply flick the steam switch on the machine, and the PID will control the steam temp to your pre-set steam temperature so that you can steam milk. When you've finished steaming, then you turn steam off on the machine and the PID will allow the boiler to cool to your set brew temperature.

As I said, once set up you don't really need to even touch the PID (certainly not daily) - though it's a useful temp display to look at now and again.


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## Norberto

No trunking, it is just a funny reflection of the grooved housing for the PID on the grouphead! I just finally figured it out!


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## oursus

Olliehulla said:


> this, all day long.
> 
> I PID'd my Silvia and it was the best thing I did in the 2.5yrs of ownership. Removes so much of the faff and markedly improved my chances of getting a decent shot on a regular basis.


This interests me, wavering at upgrading or Pid at the moment myself.

Can you expand on how it helped, in technique & the cup, what you have now, why and at what point you exceeded the pidded Silvia. (Hands microphone over).


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## Olliehulla

oursus said:


> This interests me, wavering at upgrading or Pid at the moment myself.
> 
> Can you expand on how it helped, in technique & the cup, what you have now, why and at what point you exceeded the pidded Silvia. (Hands microphone over).


1. You have a controllable and consistent temperature to work with and as we know, as we know one of the big plus points on more expensive machines is temp stability. A PID can only help.

2. You can easily experiment with up/down temps for different beans.

2. Less wasted water flushing, less time emptying the drip tray (or in my case a plastic tupperware container).

3. Easier and more consistent steam meaning better milk texturing.

Since PIDing the Silvia, after getting used to the slightly different but easier process, shots were routinely good or great because it removes some of the margin for error in one of the key variables.

Yes an Auber PID can seem expensive on the face of it but it makes the Silvia a much better machine and if you add the PID, OK you won't get all of what you paid back when / if you upgrade to a new machine but it does enhance the 2nd hand value of your Silvia.

I have now upgraded to a 2nd hand Rocket Giotto Evo 2, mainly because it was a good deal, it is shiny, I have always wanted an E61 group (temp stability







), it is shiny and I'm doing more coffee's these days so the HX capabilities of the Rocket helps. It is also very shiny !

Joking aside, after only a couple of days I have already noticed an improvement in the cup from the Silvia but you would expect that. It can only get better as I learn to get the best out of the Rocket. That said, shots from my Silvia with a PID, provided you get all the other variables right, were often good and sometimes great. I still think it's a good little machine.


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## oursus

Olliehulla said:


> 1. You have a controllable and consistent temperature to work with and as we know, as we know one of the big plus points on more expensive machines is temp stability. A PID can only help.
> 
> 2. You can easily experiment with up/down temps for different beans.
> 
> 2. Less wasted water flushing, less time emptying the drip tray (or in my case a plastic tupperware container).
> 
> 3. Easier and more consistent steam meaning better milk texturing.
> 
> Since PIDing the Silvia, after getting used to the slightly different but easier process, shots were routinely good or great because it removes some of the margin for error in one of the key variables.
> 
> Yes an Auber PID can seem expensive on the face of it but it makes the Silvia a much better machine and if you add the PID, OK you won't get all of what you paid back when / if you upgrade to a new machine but it does enhance the 2nd hand value of your Silvia.
> 
> I have now upgraded to a 2nd hand Rocket Giotto Evo 2, mainly because it was a good deal, it is shiny, I have always wanted an E61 group (temp stability
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), it is shiny and I'm doing more coffee's these days so the HX capabilities of the Rocket helps. It is also very shiny !
> 
> Joking aside, after only a couple of days I have already noticed an improvement in the cup from the Silvia but you would expect that. It can only get better as I learn to get the best out of the Rocket. That said, shots from my Silvia with a PID, provided you get all the other variables right, were often good and sometimes great. I still think it's a good little machine.


Nice one, the rocket is indeed shiny 

So looking back, would you dispense with the PID stage and just go straight to the rocket?


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## Olliehulla

Getting the Silvia, PIDing it and then upgrading to the Rocket was the right thing to do for me personally. We're all different though, some are more bothered about the pursuit of coffee nirvana. Budget, development of my "journey" through coffee, keeping the wife happy etc all played a part. Some want it sooner or have less limiting factors in their life. I don't regret the route I took, it's been and still is educational and fun. Who knows, this may not be the end for me..


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## aaroncornish

+1 for PID. If you decide your hobby warrants an upgrade then a PID'd machine will hold value well and sell easily.


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## frothycoffeeman

Have seen this one before and I must admit it's a interesting idea even though is there a issue with heat transfer from the boiler???. Its this or the Auber PID system. A PID on a Silvia does get glowing reviews from owners. Some shops(not UK) will in house PID their new Silvia which won't knacker the warranty.


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## Ronaldbiggs

frothycoffeeman said:


> Have seen this one before and I must admit it's a interesting idea even though is there a issue with heat transfer from the boiler???. Its this or the Auber PID system. A PID on a Silvia does get glowing reviews from owners. Some shops(not UK) will in house PID their new Silvia which won't knacker the warranty.


Looking at getting a Silvia and would be interested in the PID, any links to the shops that house the PID before shipping ?


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## Bigal

interested myself also, they really should be someone in the uk jumping on this to pid peoples machines


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## Adder

Just get the Auber pid. Disable pre infusion. It don't work on a Silvia anyway due to the water valve drain off. And set steam temps to 295/293 (Fahrenheit) and your done.


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## nicholasj

Bigal said:


> interested myself also, they really should be someone in the uk jumping on this to pid peoples machines


I agree entirely. I've posted this on here but you're the first to agree on this point with me.

To a certain extent it wouldn't bother me if the warranty was voided as long as the PID was professionally installed.....

Any offers?


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## Grimley

Having acquired a Miss Silvia (Manufacture date 12/15) I'm giving serious thought about installing a PID. Not certain about which one though (the Auber or MeCoffee one)

I'm leaning towards the Auber though due to it being around longer & the fact that the mecoffee one is the thought I'd be putting something similar to a Raspberry pi into a machine that gets rather hot - I'm of the school that heat, moisture & computers (of any size & type) can't be good.

Thoughts?


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## jimbojohn55

I would have thought the kits would have overcome the steam leak issues, having said that poss solution would be to put the electronics in a whisker box - https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Pumps_and_Aquatics_Index/Weatherproof_Accessories_Index/Junction_Boxes_1/index.html


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## greymda

just PIDed mine, using the PID i had on my Gaggia Classic.

i find easier job then on a Gaggia.


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## shiggy

with an Auber PID, can i set the shot length so that it stops the water flow after say 30 seconds?

i want a feature which can give me exact pulls on time duration


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## dannoceti

I did an auber PID and am happy I added it. Taste in cup is probably just more consistent.


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## Olek

Hello, sorry to join as I use a Reneka Duo

I am abusing of the "vapor" button , to manage the temperature , even during extraction (that mean a 'pre heating as 10 14 sec as some hysteresis exists)

2 cheap thermometers show me the upper and the bottom of the boiler temps.

I suppose not all Rossi machines are as simple as the Duo

I would consider a PID for comfort (if the temp is too low I raise it manually), but wish to keep that vapor switch active .

Is it possible ?

I guess a PID only reacts after some time during extraction so I do not count on it to keep stable temperature at that moment.

That said , it is fun and not so much money, to install that MOD


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## Olek

just to show how temperatures (way too high there I was a beginner with the "vapor" button) can stay together when using the vapor switch .

one temp is near the cold water input, the other (with a shiny tape) is at the bottom, near the group.


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## Olek

Because the heating element is attached at the top and probably not in water at its base,there is 2 to 4 degree more in temp reading at that point when heating. But as cold water flows there it goes down sooner if the heating element is not kept "on" during the shot.

I believe the extraction temp is more about the bottom thermometer.

That is why a Pid probe is generally located there

Those are fast type K thermometer, price about 5€.

Please let me know if you can heat manually on the simple boiler rossi type machines you use..

https://www.amazon.fr/NAttnJf-Thermomètre-Affichage-thermomètre-thermocouple/dp/B07JVLL5D9/ref=sr_1_4_sspa?keywords=type+k+thermocouple&qid=1566493678&s=gateway&sr=8-4-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFBVlJYVVhMOFdVRkQmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA0MzM4MTYxU0pTNEcxREpYMEk4JmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAwMDg3MjYxMVdXQUxLTjZZM0FIJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==


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## Olek

What is admitted (by some) is that we better not expect thermo stability with our small boilers machines, we only have possibility to smooth temperature variations at one place on the boiler.

So the Pid is not mandatory, unless your machine is too sophisticated and do not allow manual heating ( if the vapor button send impulses to the pump for instance).

With a few thermo probes and a good understanding of the machine/process we can obtain good coffees on the Rossi group types machines . By feel ...


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## Olek

Hello

I may say that I changed my mind

I think that once a dimmer is used, a PID seem to be mandatory.

WHy ? because if you only have the original temperature process the vapor pressure raise more and more in the boiler, between 2 shots, hence a variable water residue flowing when you play "on" on the extraction button and the pump is not yet active.


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## Bica60s

Grimley said:


> Having acquired a Miss Silvia (Manufacture date 12/15) I'm giving serious thought about installing a PID. Not certain about which one though (the Auber or MeCoffee one)
> 
> I'm leaning towards the Auber though due to it being around longer & the fact that the mecoffee one is the thought I'd be putting something similar to a Raspberry pi into a machine that gets rather hot - *I'm of the school that heat, moisture & computers (of any size & type) can't be good.*
> 
> Thoughts?


 Snap. I deal with electronics in what I do for a living. Heat is the killer for most electronics, and combined with high humidity is never a good mixture. Small electrolytic capacitors especially suffer but basically unless all the components are properly rated for high ambient temperature conditions, the life of the components can be shortened considerably and performance compromised too by component thermal drift. Try just a few years lifespan at best for some electrolytics if exposed to that heat for example. Keep it simple (within reason) seems like a good adage here. I'm currently on the hunt for my first "proper" machine and ideally, on a budget, will be looking for a 58mm grouphead/PF made in brass, a largish (300ml upwards) brass boiler and decent insulation. It all helps maintain temperature stability. I think avoiding electronics as far is is reasonably possible is a good thing here.


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## AJD123

Any new recommendations on PIDs to go for with the Rancilio Silvia ?


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## AJD123

I also see these posts are pretty old now - so if anybody is looking to sell their Silvia, i'm currently looking for one!


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