# Just can't get a decent espresso with my new Pavoni



## Marcelo

I'm a new member to coffee forum and this is my first post. I am also very new to the espresso scene so no expert.

I bought a new Pavoni Europiccola a few weeks back but still can't get a decent espresso. I have tried different grind settings using a recalibrated Baratza Encore (I know many say it's not an espresso grinder but I've managed to choke the Pavoni on one setting), tried different tamping pressure, and different beans (all are freshly roasted from an independent roaster). I can get great crema (albeit a little dark)'but the coffee always comes out far too bitter/sour. Basically undrinkable. I am thinking of buying a Rancilio Rocky but don't want to take the plunge if there is something else going wrong that a better grinder won't solve.

I would be grateful for any suggestions fellow members might have. Thanks.


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## h1udd

What weight of coffee are you putting in the basket ?


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## Dylan

First up being able to choke you machine is not a measure of a grinders capability, I have never used the Encore so can't comment on its suitability but I have read its not great.

Secondly you need scales, you need to weigh the coffee going into the basket and weigh the liquid you get out. If you aren't doing this you will find it very difficult indeed to get your espresso right.


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## DavecUK

1. Pavoni needs a very good grinder, it's actually more important on the Pavoni than a Pumped machine

2. The Grinder you have is not good enough for a Pavoni or a pumped machine

3. You only need about 28 lbs of pull force on the handle...this is surprisingly little, most people pull down with double that force...this means a fine grind and channeled puck.

The Pavoni can pull a great shot if used properly and with a good grinder.

Lots of used grinders for sale on here.


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## Buzza

Hi My friend , Persevere( : you will be rewarded with amazing shots..It's not easy to get to grips with at first .. but when you are dialled in it can't be beaten ...

I'm happy to send you some pre ground coffee for you to try .. I will know it's the correct grind and then it will be down to the way you make it ... We will need to coordinated so it's not sitting around too long ..

What grinder are you using ( sorry if you have already mentioned this ) ..

Cheers

Buzza ..


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## Marcelo

Thanks to all for the very useful advice. I guess the consensus is that I need a new grinder. I did have my doubts about the Encore but got it ridiculously cheap and was told that if I recalibrate it it would be suitable for espresso, but seems not. I just hope the spend on the grinder will be worth it. I was thinking of the Rancilio Rocky, which I can get new for 235. Anything above that is really out of my budget. Will the Rocky do it? I did try to get into the sales section here but I get a message saying I need five posts before I can access it.


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## Marcelo

Regarding the question from a few of you - I used the double shot basket and played around with different amounts ranging from 14 to 16 grammes.


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## Marcelo

And one more thing - the double shots I seem to get seem pretty small to me compared to ones I get from coffee shops. I can't imaging the size of the shot were I to use the single basket.


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## Marcelo

Thanks for the offer Buzza. I might take you up on it. But I did get a local roasting company to grind me some coffee suitable for the pavoni, and it didn't seem to make much difference. The coffee was still too bitter (or sour, not sure which).


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## Rhys

#1 please don't use pre-ground coffee, even if it's a kind offer from another forum member. Ground coffee goes stale in 18 minutes so always grind fresh. Plus you will be stuck with that grind and won't be able to change it.

#2. for that budget you can get a Mazzer Super Jolly so hang fire on buying a Rocky as you would soon want to upgrade. (Even a Mignon is in that price range and offers a kitchen/partner friendly option.

A double on the La Pavoni is 14g to 15g (proper Italian double size) rather than the more popular 17g to 18g double on say a Classic. I wouldn't bother with a single imho. Above all weigh in, and weigh output. You should roughly get 1:2 ratio. The La Pavoni isn't really a beginners machine as there are more variables to consider so isn't as forgiving as a Gaggia for instance. Although being thrown in at the deep end will give you a steep learning curve.

I use 14g of coffee in mine, grind finer and tamp lighter (also forget the plastic tamper that comes with them and get a proper one like a Reg barber etc.)


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## Rhys

Oh, also forgot to mention, water can play a big part so always use bottled like Volvic or Tesco Ashbeck, for the cost you don't use that much. tap water can taste vile at the best of times.


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## Marcelo

Thanks for the advice. I already abandoned the plastic tamper for a proper metal

one (real heavy thing). I looked at the MazzerSuper Jolly but I don't think it would fit in my Kitchen. Am considering a Mazzer mini though.


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## Marcelo

And, yes, I have been using Volvic water as well.


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## Rhys

Marcelo said:


> Thanks for the advice. I already abandoned the plastic tamper for a proper metal
> 
> one (real heavy thing). I looked at the MazzerSuper Jolly but I don't think it would fit in my Kitchen. Am considering a Mazzer mini though.


You don't need a hopper btw. I have a Mazzer major and it sits quite nicely next to the La Pavoni.










Even next to a slightly larger Gaggia Classic, it's hardly imposing - and that's the Major.










Super Jolly's are smaller still...










Don't forget, you won't need the hopper on.


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## Marcelo

Might be doable! Thanks.


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## MWJB

Marcelo said:


> And one more thing - the double shots I seem to get seem pretty small to me compared to ones I get from coffee shops. I can't imaging the size of the shot were I to use the single basket.


Shots from the single basket can actually be bigger (but weaker), as the puck will hold less water. You might get a tad more of a shot with a smaller double dose too.

You only have a limited reservoir of brew water for a single pull on the lever, a pump machine in a coffee shop isn't so limited.


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## Marcelo

I'll try that, thanks


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## Marcelo

Hi again. I've been offered a good deal on a new Mahlkonig Vario (marketed as a Baratza Vario in the US). This grinder seems more compact for my kitchen but not sure if it would be a good fit for the Pavoni (especially given that my Baratza Encore has been a disaster). Does anyone have a view on this? Thanks.


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## Marcelo

In short, I am now toying with either a Mazzer mini or the Vario. The Vario seems more practical to me (especially since I also drink stovetop coffee) but need to be confident it would work with the Pavoni. If not, I would opt for the Mazzer mini (the SJ I think is just too big for me).


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## Rhys

What space do you have available for a grinder? Is it the footprint or cabinet height that is an issue?

I've mostly used a Major with my Pavoni, but have tried an SJ which worked pretty well (just slower to grind more than anything) so a Mini shouldn't be too bad (electronic on demand might be better than a doser).

When I bought my Pavoni it came with an Isomac Professionale Granmacinino (titchy little conical) so am guessing at a push that'd be the smallest that would work - though it's just being used for brewed now.

Eureka Mignon might be a nice little grinder for space issues? I'm sure others will be able to comment further.


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## Marcelo

Both footprint and cabinet size. Also the fact that the Mazzer will make it difficult to grind for different types of brew. And I agree a doserless Mazzer would be a better option but I believe they are more expensive and harder to find second hand.


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## Marcelo

Just as a final update - went for a new Mazzer Super Jolly in the end. Way over my price range but hoping that it will last me a while. Hope it doesn't disappoint. Thanks again for everyone who offered advice on this. It's appreciated. Will probably keep the Baratza Encore for stovetop.


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## Dylan

Did you buy a new one?


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## Marcelo

Yes I did. Didn't want to risk buying a second hand one in case something went wrong. And I thought the price for second hand ones was just too high for a what are used machines sometimes of unknown age.


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## Dylan

Good stuff, it will last you years.

If you can find a local roaster or coffee shop that may have stale beans it will be worth running 2-3kg through it to season the burrs and get the best out of it.


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## Marcelo

Thanks for the tip. I have a few stale beans hanging around so will use those.


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## Rhys

SJ's are pretty bombproof and being step-less will give you a far better grind selection than stepped grinders. You'll probably see an improvement in your shots, more so when it's seasoned in with some stale beans. Did you get a doser or an on demand? Auto, timer or standard? Pics?


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## Marcelo

Got the doser version, standard (no timer)- it was the least expensive one and I wasn't keen on the electronics of the on demand one since more to go wrong I suppose. Was a bit daunted about the huge hopper so got a 320g one that hopefully will somewhat make its size more palatable. But don't have it yet. Being delivered tomorrow, hopefully.


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## Dylan

Marcelo said:


> Got the doser version, standard (no timer)- it was the least expensive one and I wasn't keen on the electronics of the on demand one since more to go wrong I suppose. Was a bit daunted about the huge hopper so got a 320g one that hopefully will somewhat make its size more palatable. But don't have it yet. Being delivered tomorrow, hopefully.


You will almost certainly want to ditch the hopper alltogether and just use beans int he throat or buy a glass or perspex tube and put them in there. This way you dont leave your beans sitting in the hopper exposed to more air than necessary, and it is easy to add a 250-500g weight to stop pop corning and get better consistency. You can also add a rubber lens hood to the throat or tube and use this to puff the last few grounds out of the throat.


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## Marcelo

I'd read about them. I don't actually leave the beans in the hopper. I usually weigh a double shot's worth of beans and pop them into the empty hopper to grind just before making an espresso. Let's hope I can do the same with the Mazzer, given its size and the fact its a doser.


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## Rhys

Marcelo said:


> I'd read about them. I don't actually leave the beans in the hopper. I usually weigh a double shot's worth of beans and pop them into the empty hopper to grind just before making an espresso. Let's hope I can do the same with the Mazzer, given its size and the fact its a doser.


You can indeed. Get a rubber lens hood (from a camera shop) that fits the adjustment collar, that way you can give it a whack to blow any grounds out (retention). The doser will break up any clumps. You will probably mod it in time as well by removing most of the vanes, fitting a clean sweep mod and adding the top off a cocktail shaker.










Like this. On top of the shaker lid is a spare vane I made for the clean sweep mod..










A yoghurt pot helps when dosing as well (or coffee catcher). There is also a 'shnoz' that can be made for the doser chute.


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## Marcelo

Very ingenious! I especially like the coffee catcher idea (was slightly concerned about the mess when dosing). So what's the advantage of removing the hopper (even the small one)?


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## Rhys

Marcelo said:


> Very ingenious! I especially like the coffee catcher idea (was slightly concerned about the mess when dosing). So what's the advantage of removing the hopper (even the small one)?


Space restrictions under cabinets? Though some people prefer a weight of beans in a hopper for grind consistency. Guessing youi could always remove the hopper and put somewhere cool and dark when not in use..


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## Marcelo

Makes sense. Thanks.


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## Marcelo

Update - my SJ arrived today. I couldn't wait to season it so just tried to make an espresso using a slightly finer setting than the default one (where the marker is or whatever that notch is just under the finer/coarser sticker) and I can't believe that it's already made a massive difference to the quality of the coffee - absolutely no bitterness. Had a few misshots though - first I turned the dial the wrong way and didn't realise I was getting coarser grinds. Then I turned it too much the other way and just choked the pavoni. So thought the best way forward would be just to start at the default position. I am very pleased.


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## Dylan

Good to hear, seasoning certainly wont give you the same leap in quality but it help a bit


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## Marcelo

Frustration is now setting in. Aside from what now appears to have been a fluke non-bitter shot i

am still finding it impossible to get a drinkable espresso. I have tried various coffees (all roasted 7-10 days before using then), tamping soft and hard, and dozens of grind settings, all to no avail. All the drinks I make are unbearably bitter and/or sour. Have gone through a fortune in rather expensive coffee and not sure where to go from here. Have read lots of advice on the web but nothing seems to work. This is more of an observation than a question really.


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## Marcelo

Just to add - the espressos have great consistency, colour and crema, it's just the taste that's horrible.


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## Glenn

Where are you based?

Maybe a member with a similar machine could pop around to take a look at the setup.


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## Marcelo

Oxford. That could be helpful.


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## h1udd

Is by any chance your 1st shot sour ... Then becoming bitter ?


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## coffeechap

You are not that far from me I am in shrivenham


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## Marcelo




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## Marcelo

That's what my shots look like. They seem to look ok and I do

understand that a good looking shot (if this is indeed one) is no indication of taste. But that's what's frustrating - that they seem to look ok but taste so bad


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## Marcelo

Thanks Didi. And are you ever in Oxford? If so maybe you could give

me a hand with my espresso issues.


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## Marcelo

h1udd said:


> Is by any chance your 1st shot sour ... Then becoming bitter ?


To tell you the truth I can't tell the difference between bitter and sharp. All I know is that the shots are just so sharp they make me wince.


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## Rhys

How many shots are you pulling in a row?


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## Marcelo

Rhys said:


> How many shots are you pulling in a row?


Between 1 and 3 shots, but usually 2. The first with a hard tamp and the second with a light tamp - and they I move to a finer or coarser grind to see if that works. Then I give up and come back to try again a few hours later. But it's getting beyond a joke now. I think I've worked through the whole grind range, tamping both soft and hard on each setting.


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## Rhys

You can easily get overheating issues with the La Pavoni. I could be wrong but it sounds like it's getting too hot. Try putting the portafilter in cold water to cool it down before putting coffee in it and pulling a shot. Another method is to wrap a damp cloth round the grouphead (I take it you do switch it off when not using it?). On start-up after filling it do you purge the false pressure then let it get up to pressure? Try purging some water out of the grouphead before pulling a shot as well, so it's drawing up fresh water from the bottom of the boiler.

Dave 'Didi' @coffeechap will be able to give you better advice, he's the resident lever maestro on here.


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## Marcelo

Rhys said:


> You can easily get overheating issues with the La Pavoni. I could be wrong but it sounds like it's getting too hot. Try putting the portafilter in cold water to cool it down before putting coffee in it and pulling a shot. Another method is to wrap a damp cloth round the grouphead (I take it you do switch it off when not using it?). On start-up after filling it do you purge the false pressure then let it get up to pressure? Try purging some water out of the grouphead before pulling a shot as well, so it's drawing up fresh water from the bottom of the boiler.
> 
> Dave 'Didi' @coffeechap will be able to give you better advice, he's the resident lever maestro on here.


I do switch it off when not using it and I do purge the false pressure before the first shot, and I also purge water out of the grouphead before pulling a shot. But I'll try your suggestions, although the shots don't seem that hot to me when I taste them (in fact the first one if often rather cool). Thanks


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## Marcelo

coffeechap said:


> You are not that far from me I am in shrivenham


Any advice coffee chap might have would be greatly appreciated


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## GCGlasgow

I struggle getting a good shot with mine too. I only really use it at the weekend so I don't really get a chance to be consistent. I have previously got lovely shots though I don't get a good crema.


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## MWJB

@Marcelo, I can't see anywhere, where you have described your brew ratio, dose & shot weights, grind setting?

Sharpness suggests under-extraction, which can be cured by grinding finer/pulling longer.


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## Marcelo

MWJB said:


> @Marcelo, I can't see anywhere, where you have described your brew ratio, dose & shot weights, grind setting?
> 
> Sharpness suggests under-extraction, which can be cured by grinding finer/pulling longer.


I have been using 14-16g of coffee using the double basket. As regards grind setting I have tried virtually all of them, from one that chocked the Pavoni and then worked my way through coarser grinds, which were too quick, but just as horrible tasting. As regards shot weight - not sure what do with that since the Pavoni doesn't seem to give me much room to change the size of the shot - I get between 20 and 25ml (which does seem a bit small to me).


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## MWJB

14-16g is quite a range, pick a weight and stick to it (maybe 14g). Weigh it to one decimal place.

How about a wide cup so the forks sit in the cup on scales? 20-25ml still is quite a range, narrow it down. Weigh the shot in g.

Is 20-25ml all you are getting out, or are you deliberately cutting it there?

E.g. 16g dose into 20g shot is a 1:1.25 shot. 14g into 25g is a 1:1.8 shot. You might have a grind that works for one, unlikely it will work for both.

We don't actually know which you have tried, so please, next shot, give us all the data you can & how it tastes.


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## Marcelo

Thanks for the advice. I am not deliberately cutting it, that's all I get. I'll try and do a more systematic shot but it won't be for a few days yet. My scales don't do decimals so I'll have to get one that does. When using 14g on a very fine grind, once I used the tamper the basket would only be half full (or even less) and I read somewhere that you shouldn't leave such a big gap.


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## MWJB

OK, but bear in mind the water held in the group as you pull down, is limited, so the more coffee you have in the basket, the less shot you get in the cup.

You also need to determine the height of the puck vs the height of the shower screen, rather than the edge of the basket.

So a short shot from one pull may not be enough for you to get a ball-park extraction, if this the case you might be better off aiming very short & a deliberately low extraction. But knowing which way to go, might be easier with more detail.


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## Rhys

I generally get around 28g out of 14g. The only time I use 15g is when I'm using light roasted beans. Usually it's grind fine, tamp light (the shoulders of my tamper run flush with the rim of the basket) - slowly raise the lever to the point of water input then tighten the portafilter. Lift all the way and leave for 6 to 10 seconds. You can pull down slightly until you feel resistance then gently pull up to get a bit more water in. Or you can do the 'felini' where you pull so far down, then lift up and repeat before pulling all the way, The problem with this technique is that you in-veritably crack the puck and get channelling.


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## Marcelo

Thanks. Have ordered some scales. When they arrive will try a 14g shot, with a grind based on the factory-set mid-point on my Mazzer, tamp the puck hard, and then weight the resulting shot, and take it from there. I'll report back after I've done this.


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## Marcelo

Rhys said:


> I generally get around 28g out of 14g. The only time I use 15g is when I'm using light roasted beans. Usually it's grind fine, tamp light (the shoulders of my tamper run flush with the rim of the basket) - slowly raise the lever to the point of water input then tighten the portafilter. Lift all the way and leave for 6 to 10 seconds. You can pull down slightly until you feel resistance then gently pull up to get a bit more water in. Or you can do the 'felini' where you pull so far down, then lift up and repeat before pulling all the way, The problem with this technique is that you in-veritably crack the puck and get channelling.


Thanks for the advice Rhys. Will go with your method (i'll do 2 shots - one with a light tamp and another with a firm one, with a grind on the factory-set mid-point on my grinder as I said earlier and see where that takes me.


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## Rhys

Marcelo said:


> Thanks. Have ordered some scales. When they arrive will try a 14g shot, with a grind based on the factory-set mid-point on my Mazzer, tamp the puck hard, and then weight the resulting shot, and take it from there. I'll report back after I've done this.


What beans are you using? Just for reference in case others have use the same and got dire results (I have on some, sink shots the lot of them..) Scales are the way to go though..Keep your input and tamp consistent (I use finger pressure only, enough so the coffee doesn't come out when inverted), and only adjust your grind. There's no need to push down so hard you're on tip-toes like you see in some vids.


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## Marcelo

Rhys said:


> What beans are you using? Just for reference in case others have use the same and got dire results (I have on some, sink shots the lot of them..) Scales are the way to go though..Keep your input and tamp consistent (I use finger pressure only, enough so the coffee doesn't come out when inverted), and only adjust your grind. There's no need to push down so hard you're on tip-toes like you see in some vids.


I've been using various beans from my local roaster (all roasted the week before), including their own blends (one that includes Guatemalan, Indian and Brazilian beans) and single origin beans, including from Colombia and Peru. At the moment I'm using a single origin from India (from the Bettadakhan Estate, Monkey selection variety, whatever that means). They are all pure Arabica, except the blend which had a small bit of Robusta. Will keep the tamp light then - just to level out and polish the puck.


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## TomBurtonArt

Sounds like you are changing too many variables on each attempt.

You need to aim for espresso that weighs x2 the weight of the dose. 14g=28g or 15g=30g or 16g=32g. Pick a dose and stick to it.

Use scales to measure the pressure of your tamp and keep this the same (make sure you're tamping level too).

Buy 1kg of one type of medium roast bean (tends to be easier to master) and stick to it.

Then your only variable is the grind. Try your "factory setting". If you get too much coffee for the dose then go finer.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Marcelo said:


> Oxford. That could be helpful.


Hi @Marcelo, I work in Oxford. Feel free to PM me if you need any help in trying to diagnose what may be going wrong.


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## Marcelo

pessutojr said:


> Hi @Marcelo, I work in Oxford. Feel free to PM me if you need any help in trying to diagnose what may be going wrong.


Thanks. Might well do if what's been suggested here fails.


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## Marcelo

TomBurtonArt said:


> Sounds like you are changing too many variables on each attempt.
> 
> You need to aim for espresso that weighs x2 the weight of the dose. 14g=28g or 15g=30g or 16g=32g. Pick a dose and stick to it.
> 
> Use scales to measure the pressure of your tamp and keep this the same (make sure you're tamping level too)
> 
> Buy 1kg of one type of medium roast bean (tends to be easier to master) and stick to it.
> 
> Then your only variable is the grind. Try your "factory setting". If you get too much coffee for the dose then go finer.


Thanks - Have bought some medium roast Colombian roasted 7-14 days ago. Let's see how that goes.


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## MWJB

Marcelo said:


> Have ordered some scales. When they arrive will try a 14g shot, with a grind based on the factory-set mid-point on my Mazzer, tamp the puck hard...


So far it sounds like you are under-extracting, so where is the mid point, compared to where you are set now? Coarser, or finer?


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## Marcelo

MWJB said:


> So far it sounds like you are under-extracting, so where is the mid point, compared to where you are set now? Coarser, or finer?


OK, my scales arrived and had a bit of time to play around but still not there. I started at the mid point with my grinder and using 14g of coffee got 42.5g of liquid. Ground finer and got 36.2g and then even finer and got 30.6g. Then went even finer and got an odd one - 34.4g. Have now moved the grinder to an even finer grind, and will try that setting later today. The mildest and least horrible tasting espresso I got was the first one (42.5g).


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## MWJB

Hey, "least horrible" is a start . See if you can get to " reasonably nice".

I don't understand why your beverage weight is dropping, are you letting it drip out or pulling the cup to hit the weight?

You should be aiming for a consistent weight out & adjusting grind to steer the flavour.

Did you find a difference in flavour from 31, 34 & 36g out?


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## Marcelo

MWJB said:


> Hey, "least horrible" is a start . See if you can get to " reasonably nice".
> 
> I don't understand why your beverage weight is dropping, are you letting it drip out or pulling the cup to hit the weight?
> 
> You should be aiming for a consistent weight out & adjusting grind to steer the flavour.
> 
> Did you find a difference in flavour from 31, 34 & 36g out?


Earlier you said "If you get too much coffee for the dose then go finer." so I've been going finer to try and get the dose to go down to 28g. It has been going down as outlines above but it hasn't all been linear (maybe because my tamping isn't absolutely uniform). The taste is definitely not as bad but still a bit sharp for my liking. It could be the beans, who knows. Will keep adjusting until I hid 28g. Just did two shots with even finer grind than before. The first one hit 33g, and the second nearly choked the machine (real struggle to get the lever down) but got more liquid (33.5g). Will try an ever so slightly coarser grind and see what happens. I've been waiting until the portafilter stops dripping coffee, and then weighing the shot.


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## Marcelo

Apologies - it was Tom BurtonArt who said "if you get too much coffee for the dose then go finer". Just getting a bit confused here!


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## MWJB

You can't get too much coffee for the dose, you will just get weaker coffee.You're not trying to control the shot weight with the grind, you do that with the scales & stop when you hit your target. The grind is supposed to be steering the taste at a given shot weight.

It's not the beans.

If you're not able to consistently cut the shot at 28g, then there is point aiming for 28g.

You seem to be regularly hitting ~34g. You should be able to hit this +/-1g. So stick with that for now. If you can't shake the sharpness & the machine is choking, try going coarser to your milder, less horrible point.

Make your tamping uniform, don't try & steer the shot with it in terms of force, keep it straight & enough to squeeze the air out of the puck.


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## Marcelo

MWJB said:


> You can't get too much coffee for the dose, you will just get weaker coffee.You're not trying to control the shot weight with the grind, you do that with the scales & stop when you hit your target. The grind is supposed to be steering the taste at a given shot weight.
> 
> It's not the beans.
> 
> If you're not able to consistently cut the shot at 28g, then there is point aiming for 28g.
> 
> You seem to be regularly hitting ~34g. You should be able to hit this +/-1g. So stick with that for now. If you can't shake the sharpness & the machine is choking, try going coarser to your milder, less horrible point.
> 
> Make your tamping uniform, don't try & steer the shot with it in terms of force, keep it straight & enough to squeeze the air out of the puck.


Now I got you. I managed to get a cup that enabled me to get the scales underneath while I was pulling the shot, and removed the cup when it hit 28g, which was pretty much at the end of the shot. I tampered lightly but consistently. The pulling required a bit of effort (a bit like cutting through frozen butter) but the Pavoni didn't choke. The shot started coming out more out of one of the portafilter's spout, but then the second spout followed. I must say, the shot is by no means perfect, but it is now drinkable, which is a huge improvement in my eyes. The question is do I keep it at that grind level and focus on getting a more consistent puck or do I adjust the grind ever so slightly (if so, which way?)? But I feel I am getting there at last. But I must say the idea of switching coffee and going through all that again is daunting me a bit.


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## MWJB

Keep grinding finer until the effort is unreasonable, or the coffee starts to taste smoky & drying, then back off grind a tad. Also try to keep your pucks consistent, but keep grind as the main variable.

Even keeping to the same coffee will require grind changes as it ages, subsequent roasts may also need grind changes. Once you get in the swing of it, it will become easier to know which way to go. Take control of the beans, rather than let them dictate to you


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## Marcelo

MWJB said:


> Keep grinding finer until the effort is unreasonable, or the coffee starts to taste smoky & drying, then back off grind a tad. Also try to keep your pucks consistent, but keep grind as the main variable.
> 
> Even keeping to the same coffee will require grind changes as it ages, subsequent roasts may also need grind changes. Once you get in the swing of it, it will become easier to know which way to go. Take control of the beans, rather than let them dictate to you


Will do, and thanks. But will hold off the coffee for the rest of the day I think. Will try again tomorrow.


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## Marcelo

Just to let you know that it seems I've cracked it. I managed three very decent shots today, with only a hint of bitterness (which I guess is how it should be). I used a blend I hadn't used before and it took a few attempts with different grinds but I seem to have got there in the end. Hopefully it's not a fluke. Thanks again to everyone who offered very good advice.


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## Marcelo

The one thing I am now doing differently is waiting longer for the Pavoni to heat up. Before I was pulling the first shot as soon as the green light went off. I am now ignoring this and waiting about 10 minutes and then discarding the first shot. It seemed to have worked. So maybe it was a temperature issue all along?


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## MediumRoastSteam

As a rule of thumb, water too hot equates to a bitter shot, too cold and you get a sour shot. Glad you cracked it.


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