# noob espresso problems



## profspudhed (Mar 18, 2011)

ive recently had my gaggia carezza arrive, as yet i havent made a single half decent shot (and thats compared to what i was getting from the cookworks) i tried my grinder many times on various settings but the only thing it would take without blocking was too coarse, so today i nipped into starbucks on my break at work and got a bag of ground from them, and although its somewhat better the problem still persists, the basket blocks up and the flow is merely drips until it starts pushing out of the top of the portafilter, what am i doing wrong? i seem to be able to get it to struggle through a shot with the double basket VERY slowly but the single is a no go at all, what am i doing wrong, ive tried tamping more lightly but it hasnt helped, im assured the machine is in fine working order so it must be me thats the problem somewhere


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Can you weigh the amount of coffee you are trying to put in the basket?

How much water flows into a cup in 25 seconds? (measure in mls or by weight)

Are you using the standard basket or one with a pressurised basket?


----------



## profspudhed (Mar 18, 2011)

Thanks for asking but I'm fast starting to think this isn't going to work out for me, my limited budget means there is no chance of me ever obtaining any equipment that's even close to up to the job, not only that but I emailed has bean today to see if I could pop down and collect some coffee on sat, only betold they are closed on weekends so the best beans I have any chance of getting in future are from starbucks and it certainly isn't worth the time and cash trying get much more out of them than I do, so I think ill just stick to my sub par crap, I'm beaten, but at least I answered my own question, good espresso is far beyond the reach of me any my minimum wage ilk. Thanks for the advice you have given me in the short time I've been here


----------



## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

I'm really sorry that you feel so disheartened at the moment, and hope that, as time goes on, you can be persuaded to try again. You've got a machine that is capable of making good espresso, and you are obviously aware that the other two important parts of the equation are the quality of the beans and the grind. Sounds to me like your problems might be either over-dosing and/or too fine a grind - but I'd tend to rule out the latter if you're using pre-ground. Of course, the most worrying scenario is that the machine itself is not working correctly, but if the pump is strong enough to force a flow out of from between the portafilter and the seal, then this seems unlikely. I know that you descaled the machine after you got it, but have you scrubbed and cleaned the basket as well?

If you can be persuaded to continue, then why not order some pre-ground from HasBean by post? First class postage on a 0.25kg bag is only £1.45 - the equivalent of about 4 miles in a car - so unless Steve's place is just up the road from you there's no real saving in calling for them.

What you have highlighted is something that many of us tend to forget - that there is a finite price to be paid to obtain the minimum gear to brew good espresso at home, and that this is quite a considerable sum of money in many people's book. That said, you're so close now that it's a shame to give up. Around a fiver is going to get you a bag of decent beans, correctly ground from Steve, and that's a good point to start trying again. I'm sure that, with support from some of the members here you'll be making good shots before the bag is used up!


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Where possible avoid using the single basket. It is a lot harder (on any machine) to get a decent (consistently) well extracted shot from a single basket

It's a few weeks until I shoot through Staffordshire next but I'd be willing to stop in and check the machine over (and usually have a grinder with me) to see if it is working properly. PM me if that sounds appealing

I believe you can get decent coffee on any budget.


----------



## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

It sounds like you're pretty close (equipment wise) I'd take Glenns arm off for that offer. I spent 10 minutes with a friend the other night who'd owned a classic for over a year and despite my limited knowledge he reckons I improved his shots by 100%. I suspect your grinder and beans are the problem as your machine has the same pump as a classic which is pretty good I think. I tried using Starbucks beans at first with my K3 touch grinder (£300) and my grinder could not dial them in. They are the worst beans I've ever used. Starbucks probably get by with them as theirs are likely alot fresher and they're using high end equipment. Fresh beans will make a world of difference and they're no more expensive than Illy from supermarket. If you're grinder is not giving you consistent grinds and you've not got pots of money to throw around I'd think about a getting a manual hand grinder such as a Porlex for £30.


----------



## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

A quick note - Brown & Green in Trentham Gardens Retail Village sell HasBean coffee (both bags and take away espresso/americano/latte/etc.) - if that's more convenient for you.


----------



## Flanners (Mar 21, 2011)

Glenn said:


> Where possible avoid using the single basket. It is a lot harder (on any machine) to get a decent (consistently) well extracted shot from a single basket
> 
> It's a few weeks until I shoot through Staffordshire next but I'd be willing to stop in and check the machine over (and usually have a grinder with me) to see if it is working properly. PM me if that sounds appealing
> 
> I believe you can get decent coffee on any budget.


I agree I picked up a machine in Woolworths a debadged Morphy Richards for £35 and it has served me very well indeed! Well until a recent upgrade!


----------



## profspudhed (Mar 18, 2011)

thanks for the encouragement, and thank you very much for the trentham gardens tip ill finally be able to get something better than starbucks, sadly shipping wasnt really an option as im not in to collect the package and dont finish work till the sorting office is closed, thankfully now ill be able to get some decent coffee even if i do have to use the press to get it

id love to take you up on the offer of looking the machine over but time really is my worst enemy at the moment, i dont finish till late eve and at best i get saturday off and theres demands on my time then too so committing to anything at the moment is a nightmare, i wouldnt want to agree then not be able to make it myself, but the offer is greatly appreciated

as for my progress with the machine its been so so at best, i got another bag of starbucks sumatra espresso ground on the free offer which seemed to pull through ok ish, by the time i got towards the end of the bag i thought i had the hang of it, but then i ran out and got a bag of a different variety which blocked my filter almost every time, since that ive started weighing the coffee, if i use the double basket with 7g in it it will pull a reasonable if short single espresso in about 25 seconds but 14g (or even 9g infact) blocks it entirely, even with the 7g the flow seems slow, so all in all my morning brew currently ranges from bloody awful to ok, hopefully one day ill be able to say its nice. i cant help but still think it may be the grind thats an issue, but itll be autumn at least before i can think of buying a grinder. on the plus side the carezza is fantastic for steaming by comparison, faster, quieter and better foam

again thanks for all the help


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Keep it up


----------



## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

If 9g's is choking your machine then I'd say it is faulty or you're tamping with a ridiculous amount of pressure. My money is on the former. Ideally you should test the grouphead pressure but this is difficult without a special device. I'd contact the supplier and explain that 9g of preground is choking your machine.


----------



## marbeaux (Oct 2, 2010)

Well I only have a French press and cup filter to play with and yet with guidance from the Forum, I can now produce some rather nice tasting coffee.

I guess with a lot of time and effort you will solve your espresso headaches but perhaps you should try alternative methods for the time being until you can accumulate sufficient equipment?


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Sounds to me like the machine is partly scaled up

Have you run descaler through it yet?

Have you cleaned the showerscreen too?


----------



## pifarrell (Apr 3, 2011)

I just wanted to echo what the others are saying, keep trying, it's worth it.

I read a lot and watched loads of videos on Youtube and Expert Village on espresso techniques, they're really helpful.

Being a Disability Benefit Scrounger, if my budget was any tighter it would squeak. I started a couple of months ago with a cheap second hand machine origionaly from Aldi which had a pressurised portafilter that broke and I had to use the money I was saving for a burr grinder to buy a Delonghi EC300M on eBay which has a normal filter, not a great machine but all I could afford.

I buy pre-ground from Has Bean as I can't afford an electric burr grinder just now and my Osteoarthritis prevents me from using a hand grinder.

I'm now drinking the best coffee I've ever had. I sometimes pull shots so bitter you could clean coins with it but the good ones more than make up for the bad.

Incidentally, Has Bean pack the pre-ground flat so it fits through the letter box.


----------



## profspudhed (Mar 18, 2011)

Good to know that the has bean wll go through the letterbox ground, id assumed bean size. As for the machine I was assured by the seller that he had both stripped and cleaned the brew head and descaled it, he also included soome detailed instructionson priming the pump and descaling so I have no reason to disbelieve him, I descaled myself too just to be sure though. I think for now ill have to reserve judgement until I get some better beans at the weekend, I know it was a crappy machine and all but I had blocking issues with the cookworks with starbucks too, I suppose its possible their grinders is on the fritz, unlikely but id like to rule it out


----------



## PaulN (Mar 10, 2011)

pifarrell said:


> I just wanted to echo what the others are saying, keep trying, it's worth it.
> 
> I read a lot and watched loads of videos on Youtube and Expert Village on espresso techniques, they're really helpful.
> 
> ...


I love the honesty...


----------



## PaulN (Mar 10, 2011)

Id snap glynns kind offer and plan time to make it happen. I was getting ok espresso out the box but had plenty of help regarding fresh beans and not stale tat, plus luckily my grinder had plenty of adjustment.

I still nearly came un stuck with my pressurised basket starting to spray coffee everywhere and only a visit from my brother-in-law and his standard filter basket did we see what was happening. Basically i had gone a little too course and the basket produced one high powered jet of coffee!

Anyway it sounds to me maybe you need slightly courser grind as the current setting seems to choke with the higher dose but just about gets by with a single dose.

Cheers

PaulN


----------



## profspudhed (Mar 18, 2011)

i dont think my basket is pressurized, its a 58mm and has a metal ring that holds the filter basket in, the basket itself is just plain metal with holes. im just at home on my lunchbreak right now and having run out of the starbucks preground i decided to give the crappy grinder another try with the few starbucks beans i had left and......... it was quite good actually, 7.4g in the double basket, crema wasnt a massive amount and disappeared quickly but it was an ok tasting shot. also i noticed that with the starbucks preground there are some tiny bits of grounds getting through the filter basket and into the espresso and portafilter, is that normal?

also i must say its nice to have found somewhere with helpful members, before i found this board my lack of knowledge was met with some shocking snobbery in other places and i was pretty much ready to give up.

i really do think that the grind is likely the issue if i can manage to sell off some of my less important bits or get a few extra console repairs in this week i may be able to afford one of those little hand mills from has bean and try that (when i can actually get there) its by no means a practical solution, the amount of coffee i drink id have one arm like popeye in a month but at least itll give me an idea of if the grind is the issue

EDIT

i managed to get away from work a bit early so i burned to green&brown (very helpful, and happily ordered me a bag of the ogawa so i can collect it later) and grabbed a bag of decent beans, the downside, the only ground they had was coarse so i had to take the beans and try the kraps again, but i actually just made a brew that was almost good, again a distinct lack of crema but i suspect that is down once again to grind, at least im now getting passable coffee, by my standards anyway and it beats buying it at weatherspoons in the morning anyway, ill strip the machine down saturday if i have time and i may make a pot in the press to see what the beans can actually turn out like tomorrow, im sure the grinder can handle a press right?


----------



## profspudhed (Mar 18, 2011)

well time for my final post on this subject as i believe i may have it finally beat or as well as it can be with my current equipment, after many a wasted basket i have found a combo of the has bean beans and the kraps grinder that actually produces a pretty damn decent brew, not great, but certainly good enough to tide me over until i can afford a proper grinder. still i can only get a single shot out, unless im radically overestimating the volume of a 25ml shot (sadly i have nothing that measures such small volumes, i need some lined glasses at some point)

speaking of grinders, i have been looking at the cheaper machines (i like to set my goals well in advance) so far it seems to come down to either the iberital with or without the doser or the francino which lacks the doser option, they all come in at about the £120 mark, so the question is are there any downsides to having a doser or is it plus points all the way (chiefly not having to weigh my dose each time and never grinding more than i need) also which is the more likely to last me a reasonable amount of time and is the francinos lack of a doser for the same money made up for in the quality of the machine? i dont want to mess up and buy crap again


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

For domestic use doserless is recommended

The lack of a doser should be seen as a bonus and you will not waste as much coffee


----------



## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

I've no experience of the Fracino, but once owned an MC2 doserless and can confirm that it will certainly do the business for espresso. You'd be paying over £300 to get any machine that would better it, and then not by much! The lack of a doser is compensated by an adjustable timer, and with a bit of experimentation it's easy to get it to throw the right quantity time after time - though it needs tweaking with a change of beans.


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

The Fracino grinder is a rebadged Ascaso. Nice to use. Very comparable to the Iberital MC2

As a lead-in grinder I would have one on my bench without a doubt

Same limitations as the Iberital MC2 apply though. Very difficult to use for filter and espresso as you need to wind the wormscrew quite a few times to adjust to suitable grind coarseness


----------



## Swifty (Aug 30, 2010)

I have a Fracino C6 at work and a Fracino Tranquilo doserless at home, I do quite like the doserless and it feels more relaxed and less mechanical and not so wastefull when you get it sorted. Although the mechanisim for for taking the hopper off is a pain!!


----------



## profspudhed (Mar 18, 2011)

so what youre saying is neither is going to be perfect, especially since ill be wanting to adjust between espresso and press grinds? what would be an ideal grinder? and, dare i ask, how much? (although chances are the info will be all changed by the time i get the cash together, the plan is maybe towards the end of the year or early 2012) my budget will probably be max £150 are there any others worth considering? "very difficult to use" doesnt really sound suitable for me, especially given the fact that ive been at it a while now and i still cant work my machine all that well, id rather wait longer and get more cash together if it would genuinely be worth doing (even though the mere thought of spending near £200 sends a chill down my spine, thats near 7 times the cost of my machine!)


----------



## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

I've got an Iberital MC2 for espresso (doserless, and it's fairly straight forward to use). I've got a Dualit grinder (http://www.dualit.com/products/coffee-grinder) which cost me about £70 a few years ago, which I use for filter/brewed coffee. I'm not sure you'll get a grinder that can comfortably do both without a major investment - the Baratza Virtuoso possibly? haven't tried it myself though.


----------



## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

First off, it's good to see you still with us, given how despondent you seemed earlier in the thread! Full marks for persistence.

When Glenn said "very difficult to use" I suspect that he was referring to the sheer tedium of turning the adjustment knob through so many revolutions to adjust between filter and espresso grind. But you've already got a grinder that will suffice for filter, so you could dedicate a new grinder purely to espresso settings.

I suppose that the best grinder to adjust easily between coarse and fine grind is the Mahlkonig Vario. These are loved by most (- but not me). They come in at over £300 new, but I moved mine on at under a year old for around the budget that you mention. So second hand ones - within your reach - may be rare, but they are out there,

However, in your position - given your obvious patience and willingness to plan ahead - I'd be looking, when the time is right, on E-bay for a second-hand commercial-level grinder. They're big, and not pretty, but they're also virtually indestructible (you may need to allow for a new set of burrs), and get sold within your budget.

Don't worry about the grinder costing more than the espresso machine. A good grinder and a cheap machine will give you a fair chance at making good espresso. Much better than an expensive machine with a cheap grinder.


----------



## profspudhed (Mar 18, 2011)

thanks again for the info, annoyingly not so long ago at work a shop returned some coffee equipment they were borrowing, an astoria divina and a mazzer super jolly, i was hoping to barter a decent price for it but the boss decided to keep it (he drinks turkish style so its perfect for his needs) so i think that ones out the window, but i have no probs hitting ebay so i may look towards the vario used if i can get one, there is always the chance that i can shore my budget up a bit if i can get extra work in outside my day job (sadly its dwindling as microsoft fixed the red light of death issue pretty much and ps3s and wiis almost never break anyway so ive lost my main source of extra income but you never know when it may pick up) i suppose i could keep the krups, i was planning to ebay it towards the better grinder fund but i wasnt expecting more than a tenner really so i could keep it to use as a press grinder and i suspect adjustment between beans wont be too big of a job on the francino should i decide to go that route

also another total noob question, on doserless models how are you guys measuring your dose, weighing every time or just a spooned guess? (or another method im entirely unaware of?)


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Here's my twopenneth. My grinder has dosing chambers but I try not to use them for several reasons: (a) I don't know the volume of each dosing chamber, (b) when I pull the dosing arm it spits the grinds over to one side of the portafilter, © I never get a clean dose anyway - there's always a little bit spilled into the chamber in front.

So I've been treating it as doserless, by repeatedly flicking the dosing arm and rotating the PF whilst it's grinding away. Until this week I've just been overfilling the basket then levelling it off, but I've just bought some scales and been experimenting with measuring the beans then pouring them into the hopper and grinding until empty. I'm finding that 16g doesn't actually fill up the basket, and a full levelled off basket is more like 20-22g.


----------



## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

Personally I leave my beans in the bag to keep them fresh. Then when I'm ready for a shot I zero my scales with a spare basket on them (you could use anything) then add the desired amount of beans (say 16g) then chuck them in the hopper and grind the whole lot. Yes you will always get some grind retention but this is always the same so you end up factoring it in when you weigh you beans. I find this method extremely accurate. Plus if you need to make a grind adjustment or change beans afterwards there's no need to empty your hopper. Some people will say that the hopper needs to be full to get an accurate grind but I've done it both ways and never found any difference with my grinder. Cheaper models may be affected but I've never owned one so can't comment.


----------



## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Most doser grinders have an adjustable timer - the Vario has one that counts down and is accurate to 0.1 of a second.

I now have a Mazzer mini-e, which has a screw-head adjustable electronic timer. I used to set this by weighing the dispensed grounds and adjusting as necessary. Trouble is, it has to be re-adjusted with every new type of bean - and if you tweak the fine-ness of the grind, then this also impacts on the weight dispensed, as fewer beans are ground when the grind is set finer and vice versa.

So now I've dispensed with the hopper, weigh the beans for each shot, throw them directly in the throat and put a tamper in on top of them to stop them bouncing about. I only use the timer to get close to the time, but let the grinder run until empty. Sure it's a bit of a faff, and only suited to a home environment - but it means that I can switch bean types at will - a different brew for different times of day - with only minor tweaking of the grind to bother about. I suppose that in a way it's a bit of a waste of the Mazzer electronics, but it suits my purpose.

Now that I'm only using the grinder as a single-shot, I would, if I ever change it, be more amenable to buying a dosered grinder, as I love the way that thwacking the doser lever fluffs up the grinds. Not using the hopper dramatically reduces the overall size of a grinder, and now that I'm working this way I'm seriously considering a dosered Mazzer Robur.


----------



## profspudhed (Mar 18, 2011)

See its little things like that I miss, id been grinding the coffee then spooning it into the basket and chucking the leftover grounds, weighing the beans beforehand never even crossed my mind, I'm a right fool sometimes


----------



## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

I use the doserless MC2 at home and a super jolly with doser at work. I much prefer the doserless - there's a lot less space to build up old grinds, for one.

I nearly always weigh the basket and add grinds to it (at home). I want to be consistent in my dosing to within about 0.2g of my target, so it's the only way - both doser and doserless vary each throw by up to +/- 0.5g in my experience, so you're looking at a possible +/- of 1g or even more for a typical basket (15 - 21g range). Leveling off the basket can be quite accurate (assuming your dosing is giving a constant density pre-tamp), but I more often than not want to use slightly less than needed for that.


----------



## profspudhed (Mar 18, 2011)

thanks again guys, its no small matter this coffee lark! i think for now ill aim for the francino/ascaso unless i can grab a decent used model once the cash is in hand and ill have to get a set of scales too, im only borrowing the ones i have at the moment. funds and time have currently been low so ive had to plump for locally obtainable beans, this time sainsburys tanzanian peaberry, oddly these need to go on the very finest setting on the krups (everything else blocks any lower than 2 clicks from finest) and requires a fairly hard tamp to get it right but it does seem to come through ok, still not getting much crema but hey you cant have everything!

EDIT

was just browsing ebay, its not something i can afford now but seems like the real deal incase anyone else is interested, a compak k6 grinder for 125 buy it now, ends in about 5 hours and bid wise stands at 50 quid so if anyone is looking for one and i am right about it being a decent one someone could grab a bargain

EDIT 2

i actually had a bid, and it remained at 50 quid until 3 secs before the auction end when someone went 53 quid, ah well always another day


----------



## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Someone grabbed quite a bargain there. New burrs if needed are around £20, so a damned fine grinder dead cheap. The bargains are out there if you wait and look hard. Better luck next time!


----------

