# Espresso-Machines.nu



## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

Hi all.

Has anyone had any experience with http://espresso-machines.nu ?

I'd love to buy from Bella Barista, but with these folks are selling a Brewtus 4 for £821. A savings of £364.

I almost have home office approval (SWMBO) but breaking the £1000 mark will kill it.

Cheers


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

When buying from outside of the UK consider warranties and returns.

Always contact the local supplier and use methods of payment where there is some scope for reclaim of funds should something unfortunate happen before you receive your machine.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

It's not worth it mate, pay the extra and let a UK company look after you. If it all goes pearshaped then I think you'll regret it.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

The stores is run by a guy named Martijn. I'm having a problem with the machine I bought from him recently (thermosyphon return leak and opv leak). The machine is shipped direct from the manufacturer as far as I'm aware, though he may have a few on hand. My machine was made at the start of May.

Another user here had a problem with the PID failing after two weeks and Martijn was quick to respond in contacting expobar to have replacement parts sent out.

I'm not to sure what this concern is with warranties but as far as I'm aware it's under manufacturer warranty for two years as per EU law. There is a service center in the UK (Bristol) and I see no reason why the machine would have to be shipped back to Holland and then on to Spain for repairs.

I emailed Martijn today re my problems and he responded promptly to request a picture and I don't expect to hear back until Monday/Tuesday as I assume he's communicating with Expobar. If it does have to be sent abroad I'll still end up saving money by buying from him.

I advise you to wait and see what happens with my machine, though I'm confident problems will be resolved.

Also just to clarify: The price with a cup rail, PayPal fees and shipping is €1221.71 which works at at about £868. You can get single spout portafilters, aluminium tamper and bottomless from him upon request too (all of which I now wish I did).


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rob, I hope you are right. Let me quote you Rocket. They have removed the supply of machines to grey sellers, and some of them pretty big grey sellers because these firms are not authorised to sell the product. They are refusing to honour warranties where machines have not been bought through their chain.

This will catch on with others as it is the only control they have over price, along the lines of the Apple model.

In the UK, the warranty is given by the seller, not the manufacturer as your contract is with them. There are exceptions to this rule but you still have 2 clear offers in the UK. The BB type offer where the guarantee comes from them. They sort and control all problems and the second type, where you will be redirected to the manufacturer/importer and there seems, even though the law is clear, to be little being done to force these sellers to honour UK law.

If your Dutch bloke sorts you out thats fantastic, but do not assume that Expobar will necessarily fix it for you if you turn up with your machine.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Yours was one of a number of letters we received making this point, so we thought it would be a good opportunity to clarify the rules. The European Directive 1999/44/EC says all EU countries have to ensure a retailer could be held liable for all "non-conformities" which manifest within two years from delivery.

However, because the Sale of Goods Act (SOGA) meets or exceeds most of the directive's requirements, this overrides the EU directive. The act requires three things: the goods must be as described; they must be of satisfactory quality, which is determined by description, price, durability, freedom from minor defects; and they must be fit for purpose.

Because manufacturers tend to give one year's warranty on goods, retailers will usually push you in their direction if the product breaks inside the first year.

However, SOGA provides cover for goods bought for up to six years - in England and Wales. This means if a TV fails after 13 months, you still have rights. Assuming the item has failed through no fault of yours, and it was "reasonable" to expect it to last longer - given its cost/quality - you should demand, under the Sale of Goods Act, that it be replaced or repaired by the retailed, not the manufacturer. Once the item is six months old, the onus is on you, the consumer, to show the item failed as a result of a manufacturing fault.

Try the Yellow Pages for an independent repairer. Most stores will reimburse the cost of an independent examination if the breakdown is the result of an inherent fault. In Scotland you get similar rights, but only up to five years.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Yawn


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Can't beat a smartass, eh jeebsy, especially when it is not your money. The op is misquoting some complicated EU directives. That's his choice


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

You could send it back five times for that discount.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

In fact for that saving, if something went wrong I'd drive it back to Holland myself, have a night out, then drive back with the new machine


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I'm not the op and I didn't bother quoting anything, merely stating that you are protected to an extent by law, whether you have to go to the manufacturer or the seller. You quote Rocket and mention Apple but not all companies are money grabbing jerks to that extent. I bought a kindle from amazon and forgot where I put it until I stepped on it. They sent me a new one for free. Apparently they provide a free replacement regardless of whether or not you bought the protection. Some companies actually care about the products they make and have policies to repair defects regardless of legal obligations.

As Jeebsy said, the cost of returning is far less than the money saved by buying abroad. I did consider the possibility I wouldn't receive any service from the seller and that I might waste some money with a paypal refund sending a horribly damaged machine back to the Netherlands, but thought it an unlikely scenario. I also asked myself if I'd be willing to buy a machine that had been used for a few weeks/months on this forum for around the £800 mark and decided I'd go for it; I wouldn't have received any protection there in the UK or the EU.

I'm not sure what that quote is in the second post but the line about "enforcing UK law" seems to be with regards to the distance selling regulations. I'd still have EU law on my side which is pretty much the same.

I also considered the possibility that it might develop a fault within two years time and the seller might not even exist or remember me, but decided if anything is going to go wrong it's going to happen within the first months not years. How much value is there really in a 5 year guarantee? Is there really going to be a manufacturing defect that rears its ugly head after all that time? In my opinion it's unlikely and the value of a 5 year guarantee vs a 6 year vs a 2 year is pretty much even.

With social media as prominent as it is today in marketing it would be a terrible move for anybody to leave a customer high and dry with an expensive purchase. This thread and this discussion is proof of how easily a retailer can gain or lose hundreds of customers. How many members are there in this forum alone that might buy from this store or would never consider it if the seller tries to cut and run.


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Warranty is a complicated thing for sure.

But for the specific machine it is simple:

1) The seller states that he is an official Expobar dealer. Ask him for a proof

2) Ask the seller about warranty if the machine comes broken. Also ask the seller what happens if the machine breaks down during the warranty period

3) Send an email to Expobar and ask the same questions as above but also of the obligations of the UK distributor

4) Send an email to the Expobar UK distributor and ask the same questions.

I


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

EU law does not cover distance selling. There is a lot of myths about guarantees, whether they are from the manufacturer or anyone else. Anyway, I am glad that this has worked or is working for you. Perhaps if your machine was more than 6 months old you would not have experienced such a high level of service. I mentioned Apple and Rocket. Apple have always had a policy of selling at their own recommended price regardless of the sales outlet as this allows them to fund a good customer service policy. I mentioned Rocket, because very recently they changed their policy Rocket authorised sellers were being constantly undercut by grey sellers who quite simply do not match the service levelsRocket and the likes would wish for as a reputation.

Bottom line, is in saving a few dollars is worth the inconvenience, then do it. I am not the sort of person who can wait indefinitely when something goes wrong. I said a well known Italian website who advertise every make of machine in the world, have had Rocket removed. Others will follow suit. Each to his own. I am not criticising you for the route you have taken. The days of buying British are numbered but I would suggest anyone buying from the EU actually checks and understands consumer law and gets in writing from the seller what happens if it goes wrong


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Just to add more heat to the conversation: Consider the Londinium situation. Is it similar, better or worse?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> In fact for that saving, if something went wrong I'd drive it back to Holland myself, have a night out, then drive back with the new machine


If you have bought from a grey seller, there is a good chance that there will be no guarantee in existence jibs. And if you did drive to Holland and have your night out, you would end up with a repaired Dutch machine having cost you the same price as a UKmachine


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> If you have bought from a grey seller, there is a good chance that there will be no guarantee in existence jibs. And if you did drive to Holland and have your night out, you would end up with a repaired Dutch machine having cost you the same price as a UKmachine


At least you'd have a happier ending with the Holland trip


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

I've probably discounted going down this route, but to try and be helpful to anyone who is considering purchasing from the continent via ecommerce it is probably useful to understand a couple of broad points of EU law and how it pertains to national law. I am not a lawyer, but I am a law student in first year of study and do have a good understanding of EU law and how it interacts with national law.

A directive is directly applicable and therefore can be used by an individual until such time as national enabling legislation is in place. No national law needs to be passed to enable a directive. A directive is immediately applicable .

National enabling legislation must as a minimum provide the same protections as the EU directive.

Here in the UK, EU distance selling regulations have been surpassed by national legislation which is stronger than the EU directive. Therefore don't assume that because UK law gives you certain rights, you can enforce those rights upon a seller in another EU country.

Important in this context is the fact that EU law directs that if a fault is found up to six months after purchase, a consumer can "assume" that fault was present at purchase and it is up to the supplier to make that fault right. A supplier is under no obligation to replace; only to make right. Therefore best to work under the assumption it is a back to base warranty with repair. There is no timeframe dictated on repairs, so assuming you will drive over, have a bit of a jolly, pick up your repaired unit a couple of days later and then come home is a flawed assumption.

This is why I asked for experience with this vendor. Unless its in writing, you are relying upon good will and a supplier keen to maintain its reputation. If like a certain company in London and another in Italy, there is no good reputation to protect, you are up the proverbial creek of effluent without a means of propulsion.

I was hoping for a vendor with a good reputation and prices far below market. Oh well.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

As an update:

I received a fairly prompt reply either Monday or Tuesday and was asked if I would be able to fix it myself as it would take a "long time to return and have it fixed". I'm not exactly sure what a "long time" is, maybe a week or two, maybe longer, but I was offered a refund of €50 for my trouble.

I believe the seller is attempt to discourage me from returning it as it would be costly to him as the guarantee listed on the website is as follows:

8 . Guarantee

8.1 Espresso machines.nu guarantees the quality of the products supplied by it for 24 months from date of invoice, for home machines and 12 months after date of invoice for business machines. Else if this is clearly stated in the articles.

8.2 Warranty claims can only be filed within 14 days after discovery of the defect in writing ( by e-mail/post ) at Espresso machines.nu and have a brief description of the defect and sending him a copy of the invoice .

8.3 This guarantee means that if the conditions specified in 8.2 are met , Espresso machines.nu article will repair or replace ( at the discretion Espresso machines.nu ) without the need to pay its cost. This warranty also covers the costs for the return of your machine .

So he would be responsible for the cost of returns. I have since responded to ask for a guarantee in writing that the warranty would still be valid if I were to carry out the fix myself, detailing that I would have to remove the autofill solenoid, and he has provided me with this. In conclusion I believe you can expect this retailer to support you with spare parts if necessary but in a worst case scenario it *might* be difficult to get him to accept (and pay for) a return. As I have no desire to send the machine away for what is almost certainly (I suppose the pipe could be cracked) an easy fix I haven't tested his return policy. Overall if you're able to service the machine yourself I have no reason to believe you'll have a problem with the retailer.


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