# Struggling with my new set up. Duo Temp Pro and Rancilio Rocky



## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

Hi folks. I recently treated myself to an upgrade from my Dedica and Delonghi Burr Grinder to a Duo Temp Pro and Rancilio Rocky looking to have slightly more control over my coffee making.

I've really been struggling to make anything even half as good as I did with my old set up and wondered if anyone had any tips. I'm getting a fairly bitter tasting coffee even though I've tried increasing the grind size, reducing the dose and tamping lighter. Any ideas what I might be doing wrong? I'm currently setting the Rocky to about a 12 - 15 on the dial. Is this about right?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

IF you are not doing so already You need to use scales , To set and weigh a coffee dose to 0.1g

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22879-Beginners-Reading-Weighing-Espresso-Brew-Ratios

You can then set a recipe/ brew ratio by weighing out the amount of coffee you make .

This then gives you some info that we can help you with. ]

Beyond that , why coffee are you using? and What tamper and basket ?


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

Thanks for your help,

I'm using https://www.caravancoffeeroasters.co.uk/products/the-daily?variant=13740999751 I used it with my previous set up and loved it. I'm using the unpressurised basket as I want to learn how to use it properly. I'm using the built in Sage tamper. Is 0.1g per individual shot?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Rocky is a strange grinder and not the first choice of many users, still, it is what you have. Try to be consistent ie weigh out the same dose each time, then it is a question of varying the grind consistency. The Sage probably runs best around 18 gms or so for the basket. As a rule of thumb, and always let taste tell you, aim for an extraction of about twice your dry weight over 30 seconds i9e 18 in, 36 out over 30....but that is just a guide to get you in the right area. personally, I like 30 gms from 18 but that is more intense. the Sage tamper is not very good but is fine for getting you to where you want to be. grind finer, tamp lighter!


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

Great. Thanks for all that info. I'll try what you say and report back. Maybe I'm not grinding fine enough. PS. I bought the Rocky because of the great reviews! Seemed like a great step up from the delonghi!


----------



## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

Grind as fine as you can to get a pre-infusion time of 10 - 15 seconds and a total brew time (including pre-infusion) of anything from 25 to 50 seconds - the actual time will depend on your desired taste. I generally brew 1:2 (weight of dry coffee: weight of espresso brew).

I find you need to get the DTP up to temperature with these additional 'tricks' after the light comes on to indicate the DTP is ready to brew:

1. After you've ground your beans, run a cupful of brew hot water through the machine and empty portafilter to warm everything up;

2. Then dry the portafilter and load it up with your ground coffee;

3. Finally, before brewing the coffee, run some steam through the steam wand for around 15 seconds to further heat up the machine - not sure if this bit has much effect, but worth a try!

Personally, I find it much easier to get the desired flavour from darker rather than lighter roasts with my DTP. E.g. I love Coffee Compass Jampit blend.

Hope this helps.


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

Brilliant. Loads of things to try. You guys are great!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

DRAXXMENVONE said:


> Great. Thanks for all that info. I'll try what you say and report back. Maybe I'm not grinding fine enough. PS. I bought the Rocky because of the great reviews! Seemed like a great step up from the delonghi!


AS with all things internet , great reviews need qualifying. Opinion on here would have steered you away from Rocky .

Having said that you should be able to make good coffee with it.

Re adjustments to balance taste as other posts have said , weight the input and output .

Aim for now for a 1:2 ratio , stop the shot when you hit your desired weight , note the time but do not stop the shot by a time bracket , time is not the deciding factor here on how your drink will taste. Tasty brews, of course depending on personal preference can easily be made in a 20 - 45 seconds time frame.


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

Sounds like good advice. I need to get more accurate with my coffee making by the sounds of things. I picked up the Rocky really cheaply so if there are better grinders out there at a similar price point, what would you suggest?


----------



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I assume the pre infusion time is the same as the BE, 10 secs so that is fixed. What I found is that some flow during that period was beneficial. After that the machine switches the pump to full pressure. The question then is how long into pre infusion before flow starts. No answer really as it's bean dependent but grinding finer will extend the time before there is any flow. I would be inclined to say as late as possible if you were using the single basket but not going so fine that the machine chokes and coffee just dribble very slowly out of the portafilter or none comes out at all. That's a bit of a knife edge when the single is used and from my experience many beans are too weak for it.

Trying that approach with the double is likely to result in too strong a drink - did for me anyway. It's not a basket that I used that often for this reason, Down to me. The BE has a pressure gauge and if I new what it represented in bar I wouldn't have worked the same way. I'd be likely to get flow sooner during infusion. I did use an adapted basket that held around 14g a lot and lower final pressures - shorter time to flow and that worked out well.







Then I changed machine. The DTP might use a different max brew pressure but the same sort of rules should still apply. They are still of use on my DB and that does use a different max brew pressure.

Then comes ratio's. As mentioned wisely these aren't cast in stone. There are 2 factors the amount out and the time that takes for the same weight in. Given say you have 1 to 2 in 30 sec it's worth trying say 25 and 35 sec and seeing what that does to taste. Same applies if some other ratio crops up at 30 sec. Just because it's not 1 to 2 doesn't make it bad. Who ever drinks it determines that but personally I always try to get something that matches the tasting notes - those need a bit of imagination.

Setting the grinder can be fun. Messed me about for a while and then I realised that when I changed the setting some of the previous setting is still in the grinder. Very little left in on the grinder I was using at the time as well. The safest answer is to waste a dose after a setting change. Also it's a good idea to run the grinder when setting finer. Both of these factors are hardly ever mentioned.

One factor that should be common on the DTP to the BE is using the razor tool to set the dose at least initially. That weight can then be used as a basis for changes. In some ways it's no good just saying X grams of grinds because the density of beans differ even in respect to roast level. On the BE I used this to set the grinder up more quickly on new beans. Timed grinder so the dose it gives varies as the setting is changed. So set for a bit too much and razored of the excess - then when things were ok worried about weight changes. The razor tool on the DB is a pain in the backside due to other factors.

Some puckology might be of use. The shower screen uses a hex socket to hold it in place. If you can see a distinct pip formed by that on the top of the puck chances are you are using too much coffeee - but like most things it changes taste so might be a good idea. I generally worked with the puck showing very slight signs of it or none at all. That means there was room for the grounds to expand. Go too low and the result is a wet soggy puck. As the fill height is increased there comes a point where the puck tends to stick to the shower screen rather than come out with the portafilter. A touch more coffee should fix that. Wish it was so simple on the DB. This is on a BE that has 3 way valve but the DTP should show similar behaviour.

I found the Sage tamper ok - place finger tips around rim - check level and press. My hands are too big to hold the handle. It's best to press as hard as you can easily really to try and keep it constant. I now use one with a dirty great big handle - not much difference technique wise.

Like some one said coffee brewing is getting too complicated but once some one has got what they want out of a machine that might include choice of a suitable bean it's a lot easier latter on. The grinder for instance will probably only need small changes from bean to bean. It may need small changes for a while after it has been cleaned as well.

John

-


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

Thanks John. Loads to try out there. The duo temp actually has a manual espresso pump so I'm judging the amount of water myself. I'm going to invest in a measuring glass so my amounts can be more finely tuned. Interesting I can get info from the hex shape pressed into the puck. Can't say I've noticed it before but i'll look out for it in future. I am often seeing a soggy puck so either my grind is too fine, dose is too big or tamping is too hard. So many variables!


----------



## adz313 (Apr 13, 2016)

DRAXXMENVONE said:


> I'm going to invest in a measuring glass so my amounts can be more finely tuned. I


Biggest difference I found (as a DTP owner) was weighing in and out - i.e. weigh the amount of dry coffee going in, then measure the output using weight, not volume.

Gives you an objective measurement to work from.

Start with a 1:2 ratio (I use 18:36), run time between 25-40 secs.

At that point, you'll either discover you're happy with what's being produced or not - if the latter, then there are people on here that can help you tweak variables


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

Aye. Sounds like a very good place to start. Thanks. I want to reduce my variables initially!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

DRAXXMENVONE said:


> Thanks John. Loads to try out there. The duo temp actually has a manual espresso pump so I'm judging the amount of water myself. I'm going to invest in a measuring glass so my amounts can be more finely tuned. Interesting I can get info from the hex shape pressed into the puck. Can't say I've noticed it before but i'll look out for it in future. I am often seeing a soggy puck so either my grind is too fine, dose is too big or tamping is too hard. So many variables!


USE SCALES. Not a jug...

Dont start getting into accessing your drink via the quality of the puck, it means nothing.

There are alot of posts and opinions offered on here, some of it is just noise and 100's of words where simple processes will help .

Read the link I posted , keep the process simple and judge the results in the cup. A decent process and workflow to adjust your variables ( Scales ) .

Singles baskets are a pain to use and lean and dial in on. Dont make your life harder than it needs to be.


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

OK so I see the value of weighing things to establish a common ground on which to make adjustments. I've got some accurate scales, Ill just need to take a little time measuring stuff out more accurately. My ultimate goal is to be able to make coffee without weighing stuff though as I've got to leave for work really early!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

DRAXXMENVONE said:


> OK so I see the value of weighing things to establish a common ground on which to make adjustments. I've got some accurate scales, Ill just need to take a little time measuring stuff out more accurately. My ultimate goal is to be able to make coffee without weighing stuff though as I've got to leave for work really early!


You can make coffee without weighing , whether you can hit the consistency in the cup is another thing.

Whether that matters to you is also your choice.

Build a workflow around weighing it really doesnt take that long , or get up 5 minutes early.

Trust me , i have seen many many people on my time here , talk of getting to some mystical point of not using scales.

Whenever they change coffee or after a period of time they are back on asking what's up my coffee isnt great and what is up is that they have started guessing at the variable they using.

If you can guess a dose to a 0.2 accuracy and output to 1g then go for it, you are a better man than I ever was or most of the people on this forum.


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

Aye, feels a bit like a competition now. I'm not looking to make the best coffee in the world. I'm just looking to make coffee I enjoy with my new set up. I've never seen a barista use scales so I'm guessing there is a mystical point somewhere! I can't say I'm loving the passive aggressive tone or the description of other people's advice as "noise". Thanks for the advice though.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

DRAXXMENVONE said:


> Aye, feels a bit like a competition now. I'm not looking to make the best coffee in the world. I'm just looking to make coffee I enjoy with my new set up. I've never seen a barista use scales so I'm guessing there is a mystical point somewhere! I can't say I'm loving the passive aggressive tone or the description of other people's advice as "noise". Thanks for the advice though.


Up to you, you asked for advice, I am giving my experience of seeing posts and people come and go on here.

I am being honest, there is some really bizarre and confusing advice given on here. I don't actually understand half of it myself . If you do more power two you.

Yes Baristas might not use scales, they have a grinder that doses to 0.2 accuracy and more than likely a volumetric machine that gets pretty close results each time. Plus they make 100s of shots a day.

If you are going to make a couple of shots a day , why not try to make them the best you can ,yeah it costs you a couple of minutes , but what's that in the grans scheme of things.

I'll stop posting now as , i have seen how these discussions generally end up. And I hope you are able to make the coffee you enjoy in the way you want.


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

Thanks fellah. Some good advice here. I'll sift through it and see what looks like it makes sense. I think I'll definitely weigh until I'm happy with my coffee and then take it from there. I'll let you know how I get on with your advice.









Nice photography BTW.


----------



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DRAXXMENVONE said:


> Aye, feels a bit like a competition now. I'm not looking to make the best coffee in the world. I'm just looking to make coffee I enjoy with my new set up. I've never seen a barista use scales so I'm guessing there is a mystical point somewhere! I can't say I'm loving the passive aggressive tone or the description of other people's advice as "noise". Thanks for the advice though.


A barrista is more like you will be when you have sorted a bean out. It gets a lot easier once the basics are right and understood. When you see coffee being made commercially it's probably by a machine that produces a shot volume. Many of them are fitted with flow meters so working at home is different for most because their machine may not work that way just purely use time often manually.

Where scales and weight out comes in is if taste for some reason changes. Drinking at home is different. Me for instance usually 3 a day. Due to that I am far more likely to notice a change than say at CostaBucks etc who I may use a lot less often. What you may see a barrista do is make and taste a drink from time to time. The thing they would mostly likely adjust after that is the grinder. They may have used scales or a shot glass to set up initially. They might even have set the weight in via taste. A lot of them always use the same beans. Another factor.

Personally I am mostly driven by taste. My first setting for a new bean is what ever it was before. I do weigh in and out but only as a check. I might weigh in a lot of shots to see how stable that is. If I conclude that the variation I get doesn't change taste I then switch to just checking - that is similar to what a barrista might do via a taste and maybe even by looking at the puck. A timed grinder is unlikely to hold the dose tolerance that many strive for on a day to day basis, it needs checking.

The machine I use has a shot button so I don't need a timer of some sort. My BE had one too. Recently I have weighed lots of shots out. On this bean I use 14.2g in and aiming for 38g out in 30sec in this case. In practice I get a range of around 36 to 40 - I'm weighing beans in and having to brush some grounds out of the grinder - forget the brush part and the output will go a lot higher for not much of a change in weight in. Taste wise ok but not what I ideally want. I might notice that the output has drifted one way on some days. If that is corrected it needs a really tiny change to the grinder setting so small it's more likely to mess things up than improve them. Some people weigh out on the fly as the shot is being pulled - well things change so bang goes 30 sec as they must be changing the shot time. I don't see the point of doing this - each to their own though.

I do use scales. The best option on those for me is ones that are large enough to get the entire portafilter on reasonably well. That way weight in can be checked pretty easily and if you drink long blacks as I do - shot added to hot water weight out can be checked as well. I'd say 1kg scales with 0,1g capability are most suitable for this. Shot weight can be checked this way what ever you drink. Mine are pretty large at around 350ml total but the scales also have to be able to tare out the weight of the mug or cup etc. People who weigh out tend to use tiny scales that will fit under the cup / mug as the shot is pulled. What I found with those is that they wont measure the dose in reliably as the portafilter has to be hung over / balanced on them too carefully. Others may disagree with that.








What you and others do is up to you and them. You can check each shot end to end meticulously. Personally I do that to see what variations I get. Once I am happy with that I just check now and again. The numbers can be useful when beans are returned to. It's also possible to notice other things. The bean I use most is less dense than others so given a basket that holds 14.2 grams of it I know that other beans are likely to need around 15g. I am a puck fanatic as well. I wont put up with messy ones and like them to knock out cleanly and easily leaving very little behind.

John

-


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Everyone is driven by taste or should be. I thought for a period of time your focus was making non soggy pucks though.


----------



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Everyone is driven by taste or should be. I thought for a period of time your focus was making non soggy pucks though.


LOL Yeh to be honest that too along with different basket sizes.

Light brew by the way - weaker hoping for a high degree of clarity so weak would not be a good description - weaker than it could be in other words.

John

-


----------



## iulianato (May 5, 2015)

ajohn said:


> The bean I use most is less dense than others so given a basket that holds 14.2 grams of it I know that other beans are likely to need around 15g. I am a puck fanatic as well. I wont put up with messy ones and like them to knock out cleanly and easily leaving very little behind.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Why? What's wrong wit messy pucks if the output tastes good? Are you choosing the beans by the puck integrity?


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

ajohn said:


> A barrista is more like you will be when you have sorted a bean out. It gets a lot easier once the basics are right and understood. When you see coffee being made commercially it's probably by a machine that produces a shot volume. Many of them are fitted with flow meters so working at home is different for most because their machine may not work that way just purely use time often manually.
> 
> Where scales and weight out comes in is if taste for some reason changes. Drinking at home is different. Me for instance usually 3 a day. Due to that I am far more likely to notice a change than say at CostaBucks etc who I may use a lot less often. What you may see a barrista do is make and taste a drink from time to time. The thing they would mostly likely adjust after that is the grinder. They may have used scales or a shot glass to set up initially. They might even have set the weight in via taste. A lot of them always use the same beans. Another factor.
> 
> ...


thanks John. I do actually have some scales that should be perfect for the job and should hold my whole portafilter. I've also just invested in a glass cup so I can see what's going on. I reckon if I get a chance I need to try all of this advice out over a few shots and see if the taste improves.


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

DRAXXMENVONE said:


> thanks John. I do actually have some scales that should be perfect for the job and should hold my whole portafilter. I've also just invested in a glass cup so I can see what's going on. I reckon if I get a chance I need to try all of this advice out over a few shots and see if the taste improves.


Weigh in, weigh out. Scales to weigh the output as it's happening. Just saying ...


----------



## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

^^ plus MrBoots. Weigh in , weight out, time mostly irrelevant ( if you make a tasty espresso to you at 50 seconds, bob on! otherwise adjust grind until you get to tasty)

As a previous Rocky owner 12-15 sound way too coarse for a non pressurised basket. You haven't mentioned if the Rocky is new or second hand so unable to comment on burr status (they can be shot after 60-70Kgs but cheap to replace with genuines from someone like Bella Barista). For me the rocky worked for espresso best between 1 and 10, as the burrs got worn was spending more time in the lower numbers, replaced, and once settled back up into the high singles, it being used with a Silvia at the time.

Hope of help and keep at it

John


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

johnealey said:


> ^^ plus MrBoots. Weigh in , weight out, time mostly irrelevant ( if you make a tasty espresso to you at 50 seconds, bob on! otherwise adjust grind until you get to tasty)
> 
> As a previous Rocky owner 12-15 sound way too coarse for a non pressurised basket. You haven't mentioned if the Rocky is new or second hand so unable to comment on burr status (they can be shot after 60-70Kgs but cheap to replace with genuines from someone like Bella Barista). For me the rocky worked for espresso best between 1 and 10, as the burrs got worn was spending more time in the lower numbers, replaced, and once settled back up into the high singles, it being used with a Silvia at the time.
> 
> ...


Hi John. The Rocky was bought used but had just had new burrs fitted so should be good. I'll try making the grind finer. The fellah I bought it from had it set to 8 or 9 to use with his Silvia so maybe it should be nearer that.


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

Ok so I think I love you guys. I dialled the grinder right down from 15 to 8. Measured out 18g and poured 35g and it was ace. I only had crappy beans left in the house but even with these the coffee was infinitely better than anything so far. Seriously, you guys rock. I think with a bit of refinement I'll be totally happy. Kudos to the lot of you.


----------



## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

Hurrah for MrB2u weigh in / out triumphs again. So so simples it works every time guaranteed


----------



## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

as boots said earlier you will find over time that the couple of seconds added by weighing in / out will rule out inconsistencies and give you a solid base to work from. To answer something you said earlier about shops not weighing, most do, they just do it prior to opening so will set up their grinders to provide a desired grind level and weight over a certain time if on demand grinder or adjust doser chamber to dispense know quantities. The machine often will be volumetric i.e press the button, so many seconds elapse dispensing a certain amount of water, so espresso weighed out in cup and timers set accordingly (this is how my Faema Project 2 group works as do most volumetric machines) There are high end gravimetric machines out there that weight out the espresso in the cup and shut off the water as well, similar principle of known weight in cup just differently achieved.

As to me, I weigh in every dry dose and every wet output of coffee both in grammes, how else do you know whether to grind finer or coarser to achieve desired taste (time is arbitrary and just something to think of if taste ridiculously out. Have had some cracking espresso at 16s and at the other extreme in the 1m plus range, really depends on the coffee and your taste buds

John


----------

