# Sudden shot problems



## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

Can anyone give me a bit of advice on why all of a sudden Ive started getting extraction inconsistencies with my machine please.

 Im using the same beans, and apart from changing the grind settings as the beans get older nothing else has changed. For some reason after about 20 seconds in to the extraction it starts dripping out. My beans was freshly roasted, although are now about 3 weeks old.

Ive tried reducing and increasing the amount of grinds in the portafilter but still doing the same. Ive had the machine since Jan and upto now its always performed pretty well, im wondering if the pressure is dropping the longer the extraction goes on? Its a sage barista touch.






Any advice would be much appreciated ☺

At some point i will be getting a bottomless portafilter when this current crisis is over but for now i need to workout the problem without one. From past experience with the machine I wouldn't say im chocking it, i know the sound it makes when it is.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Dalerst said:


> Can anyone give me a bit of advice on why all of a sudden Ive started getting extraction inconsistencies with my machine please.
> 
> Im using the same beans, and apart from changing the grind settings as the beans get older nothing else has changed. For some reason after about 20 seconds in to the extraction it starts dripping out. My beans was freshly roasted, although are now about 3 weeks old.
> 
> ...


What happens when you turn the pump on without the porta filter in place?

Have you inspected your portafilter / basket for any blockages?

Doesn't your machine have a pressure gauge? What's the reading during extraction?


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## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> What happens when you turn the pump on without the porta filter in place?


 It seems to run fine when no portafilter is in place, i also do a clean cycle at least every 2 weeks.



MediumRoastSteam said:


> Have you inspected your portafilter / basket for any blockages?


 Yes no blockage from what I can see.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Mine does this often. Mostly with very fresh beans. I suspect it's due to the thermojet and one of a few reasons why it's being returned!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

TomHughes said:


> Mine does this often. Mostly with very fresh beans. I suspect it's due to the thermojet and one of a few reasons why it's being returned!


Oh! I forgot about the thermojet. In my head I was tuning though a usual circuit, including a small boiler along the way.

So... OP said that it does not do the spluttering thing when there's no PF in place. So, maybe this is related to the pump being under pressure, some blockage on the way and water running low inside the circuit? Interestingly however, the pump doesn't sound like it's changing noises... honestly, no idea.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Oh! I forgot about the thermojet. In my head I was tuning though a usual circuit, including a small boiler along the way.
> 
> So... OP said that it does not do the spluttering thing when there's no PF in place. So, maybe this is related to the pump being under pressure, some blockage on the way and water running low inside the circuit? Interestingly however, the pump doesn't sound like it's changing noises... honestly, no idea.


 I think the thermojet is a great idea but in practice isn't all that great. I'm having issues with watery microfoam as it keeps stuttering and spitting. The pump also seems to struggle sometimes.

Like in the video there should be no reason why it does that.

The other reason could be fines. The sage grinder is pants and produces a lot of fines. Fines migrate as flow goes through the puck. Then block the basket holes.

@Dalersttry pulling a shot with a wet aeropress filter in the bottom. You'll need to cut it. This will tell you if it's a fines problem

Also @Dalerstare you single dosing or filling the hopper?


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## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> Also @Dalerstare you single dosing or filling the hopper


 Im single dosing! I know its not the best idea with this grinder but not had this problem before.



TomHughes said:


> try pulling a shot with a wet aeropress filter in the bottom. You'll need to cut it. This will tell you if it's a fines problem


 Will give this a try, you mentioned fines? Not sure what you mean.



TomHughes said:


> Mine does this often. Mostly with very fresh beans. I suspect it's due to the thermojet and one of a few reasons why it's being returned!


 Unfortunately im stuck this mine, not sure curry's will take it back to be honest. Just need to work on a solution as much as possible. I do plan on getting a new grinder at some point as the inbuilt isn't the best.



MediumRoastSteam said:


> some blockage on the way and water running low inside the circuit?


 That was my thinking, maybe the thermojet is very limited to what it can achieve, and its its something i will just have to live with until I can afford to upgrade the machine. Just wish I had found this forum before i purchased a machine, it wouldn't of been a sage thats for sure.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Cool. Does seem odd. 
fines are the very fine particles produced during grinding. Lower end grinders tend to produce more. The filter paper stops them from blocking the basket.

one last thing, how hard is your water and how often are you de scaling?


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## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> one last thing, how hard is your water and how often are you de scaling


 Ive used ashbeck bottled water since purchasing the machine. I'm going to get some filter paper and give that a try.


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## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

Just had a thought, I did change the temperature of the water a week or so ago, i had it set to high and reduced it down to optimal! Could that be part of the problem?


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Dalerst said:


> Just had a thought, I did change the temperature of the water a week or so ago, i had it set to high and reduced it down to optimal! Could that be part of the problem?


 Potentially. 
I think the fundamental problem of the sages is the need to match pressure, temp and flow through the coil/jets whilst maintaining the correct temp via the PID. 
With this in mind they are sensitive beasts to even small changes.

You say you are using the same beans, was it same beans, same batch? What beans are they?

I've also noticed sometimes my sage hums, our circuit board does the same. 
I wonder whether there are issues with the power draw sometimes?


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## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> You say you are using the same beans, was it same beans, same batch? What beans are they


 They are the same batch, Brazilian roasted on 20th march from my local roastery. Been using them since i got the machine (the roaster that is) im going to set the temp back to what it was and try another shot later. Will post the result!


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Dalerst said:


> They are the same batch, Brazilian roasted on 20th march from my local roastery. Been using them since i got the machine (the roaster that is) im going to set the temp back to what it was and try another shot later. Will post the result!


 Did you say you were grinding them finer or was that the same?


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## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> Did you say you were grinding them finer or was that the same?


 Ive tried the same grind and increased decreasing grinds. Hoping the temp has a bit to do with it.


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## cafekrazd (Jul 17, 2020)

I thought I would get in on this conversation with a sudden extraction problem I am also having lately. I have been getting to know my new Lelit Mara X and Mignon Magnifico grinder with various beans and had used 2kg of beans without incident. Started on a new pack from a new roaster (roasted about 6 days before opening) and dialling in was going as expected until suddenly, it wasn't. The coffee was suddenly coming out at a trickle using the grinder setting that had worked before. I was going nuts. I cleaned the machine completely and after that discovered some blocked holes in the filter basket. I patiently freed them up with a pin and all was great again... for a while. Then it happened again. Here is a pic of post thorough pin-cleaning and then after one double shot - as you can see, some holes are starting to block again. @TomHughes - is this a fines problem? What can I do short of lining with paper filters and is using a pin in a pinch okay? Could it be due to the freshness of the beans? Why is this happening now when it hadn't before?


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Firstly , do not poke the holes with a pin, they are precision formed and poking them may / will cause damage.

Are you clearing the grinder between adjustments ? It takes a shot or more to clear grinds from previous setting. Is your tamping consistent ?

Clean your basket with dish / liquid and sponge OR soak in Pulycaff or similar.


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## cafekrazd (Jul 17, 2020)

Did all of the above - I always clear between adjustments and dish liquid, sponges and Pulycaff don't get the holes unplugged - tried it all. And as I wrote - the pic above was after just one shot! So have I now completely damaged my filter basket with the pin? Can't imagine I have / really really hope I haven't!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Are you rinsing the basket after every shot or pulling multiple in succession without rinsing? It's normal after one shot to have a bit of coffee left in the basket but rinsing inside and out should remove it all easily. If you don't rinse and really pack it in until you completely block holes it might be harder to remove.


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## cafekrazd (Jul 17, 2020)

With the first 2kg of coffee I typically rigorously rinsed the portafilter as a whole with the basket inserted, only removing the basket itself occasionally - but there I had no problems. Now, as I said, rinsing / scrubing / etc. inside and out after a shot doesn't help. I am tamping as usual - nothing excessive.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Are they hard blockages or just liquid blockages? I always rinse mine afterwards, so never paid attention. But... which problems is this causing?


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## cafekrazd (Jul 17, 2020)

Hi - they seem to be fine grinds that need to be dislodged and I think this is why the typical rinse afterward isn't cutting it...

**If it wasn't clear - the second pic above was after rinsing and trying with a sponge inside and out**

The problem that I think this is causing or at least, what led me on this path: a sudden slowing/blockage of the extraction at exactly the same settings so that what once came out in, for example, 25s suddenly takes 40+ and tastes, well, as you might imagine it would...


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

cafekrazd said:


> Hi - they seem to be fine grinds that need to be dislodged and I think this is why the typical rinse afterward isn't cutting it...
> 
> **If it wasn't clear - the second pic above was after rinsing and trying with a sponge inside and out**
> 
> The problem that I think this is causing or at least, what led me on this path: a sudden slowing/blockage of the extraction at exactly the same settings so that what once came out in, for example, 25s suddenly takes 40+ and tastes, well, as you might imagine it would...


 Interesting. I can't see what the issue could be. Have you tried a VST basket? Do you get fines at the bottom of the cup?


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## cafekrazd (Jul 17, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Interesting. I can't see what the issue could be. Have you tried a VST basket? Do you get fines at the bottom of the cup?


 Haven't tried a VST basket and no grinds in the cup


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