# Owners, lets hear about your machines



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

This is a genuine ask for help. We always think that whatever machine we own, unless it is a stepping stone, is the best machine out there. I want to know why Verona, Duetto, Profitec 700 and the likes bought their machines and if, after a period of ownership, they would do the same again.

I am not interested in levers at this point in time. Over to anyone...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Why did Profitec 700 owners not buy Veronas? If Davec has had major input to the design, why would you not just go with the flow?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Some of it might be just whichever was available/looked best subjectively/right price/right time rather than a careful balancing of all the factors. For instance I got my R58 from the above-mentioned Dave C after he'd reviewed it. Therefore it was a beautiful looking machine a short drive from my house, I saved a chunk of money over buying new, had the added bonus of knowing it had been thoroughly tested prior to collection and I got a hugely helpful handover. I suspect Dave would say the Duetto was the better machine from a technical standpoint as he had one of those too but wasn't parting with it. Equally it could just be that Izzo adopted more of his input than Rocket did. I dare say most of the expensive DB machines are very good, none are perfect, so it might just come down to looks/price/what's nearest. For technical details on components and build quality you'd have to ask the man himself though!


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

For most price is surely the biggest factor. Unless you are absolutely determined to have a particular machine for a particular reason, if something similar came along at a good price it would be hard for many to justify the extra outlay.

Speaking theoretically of course as I am but a lowly Classic owner with zero hope of an upgrade.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

So was I at the time Risky. Hence I jumped at the chance of a lightly used R58 and didn't consider owt else.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Looks have to play a huge part in the decision for a 'forever' machine, along with features.

Taking the car analogy, I'd buy German non fuss engineering over Japanese bells and whistles every day of the week. Others will want every conceivable extra on their Jap car as standard.

Back to machines, at the top end there cant be too much to differentiate between whats in the cup - grinders, water, beans and technique will play a bigger part in the end product for me.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

But, for example, the Duetto, Verona and 700 are all similar in price. The Duetto was without doubt the market leader in its dy. Perhaps it has been nudged tone side by the Verona, and where is the latest challenger, the 700? I am assuming of course, that the option to buy a lightly used one is non existent, so we are really looking at new


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

dfk, as you know I had a Verona which I had some problems with and returned it. I had my Classic to fall back on while I reconsidered.

I study the reviews / reports on machines and look at the internals and components used. I look at reliability and longevity of components also availability.

Although I am proficient at stripping and rebuilding a machine, I prefer the maintenance to be easily accomplished. As for looks I prefer the more square appearance rather than the more flamboyant shapes with appendages. Obviously cost does come into the equation but around the particular price point there is not much difference.

After further consideration I did not find another machine that fulfilled my requirements as much as the Verona ( other than it's native form) and so purchased another Verona.

I do not think the Profitec was available when I was looking.

Would I purchase another Verona, more than likely unless something else really took my eye and fulfilled my criteria / requirements.

I am still mistrusting of too many electronics. Yes I know they are used in planes etc but there is probably a difference in quality.
















Forgot to mention the drain valves on the boilers which make life easy. Other useful attribute the ability to turn the steam boiler on and off and not have to run it permanently and only requiring a couple of minutes to warm up.

As for no timer I weigh in and out, it suits me fine and easy to tweak if you need / want to .


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## Epic_Espresso (Feb 22, 2015)

I think i have had a sensible climb with my machines. Starting with an entry level Delonghi pressurised, then onto a Gaggia Classic. I upgraded that for my Fracino Heavenly so I could steam milk along side the drink and also warm the cups. The Fracino Heavenly is as much as I need at home, but we all have a dream and I would spend a blank cheque on La Spaziale (mmmmmmmmmm).


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

El carajillo said:


> dfk, as you know I had a Verona which I had some problems with and returned it. I had my Classic to fall back on while I reconsidered.
> 
> I study the reviews / reports on machines and look at the internals and components used. I look at reliability and longevity of components also availability.
> 
> ...


Hi Frank, thanks for your thoughts.......and thinking is something I am doing a lot of. Come on Profitec boys ......where are you?


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

They are all here

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?28385-What-made-you-go-for-an-ECM-Profitec

due to the overwhelming amount of owners they have their own sub forum


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

I wanted a dual boiler, tanked and rotary pumped E61 machine with full PID control - and when I bought my Duetto mkII it was the only option.... so I bought it.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

No drain taps on the 700.....no shot timer on the Verona


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> No drain taps on the 700.....no shot timer on the Verona


Sage DB has both.

Just saying.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

NickdeBug said:


> Sage DB has both.
> 
> Just saying.


Don't tempt me.......I am trying to behave!


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Although I bought it due to the attractive used price as a bundle with a Eureka 65E I've really enjoyed the Rocket Giotto Evo. Sure I'd like a dual boiler with a bigger drip tray and PID but this does the business very well. My next upgrade will be grinder then I'll worry about a new machine. (Unless of course something irresistible shows up on here.)


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

Before purchasing the Vetrano I where looking for a machine that could replace a Vivaldi II that I had owned for a few years.

At that time I dreamed of a spring lever, like the L1 but all of them where unfortunately out of my range so decided to purchase a E61 until I could afford one. In contrast to others I did not prefer a db. I just needed a machine that where able to run on tank and have the ability to be plumped in, down the line.

Did my research and where looking at different models, and I really did not like the feel of the R58 or the external PID controller unit. So went for the one with the lowest retail price.

The Quality between the different models where simply to small for me to even consider getting the Duetto or the Vibiemme, the Pro 700 where not available at a reliable vendor at that time, and when the pro 700 where launched it where priced for around £300 more then the Vetrano


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Just buy an R60 Mr Kidd.... ;-)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Seems to be not a lot of info on the R60....I presume it is not as flexible as a Vesuvius, meaning you can programme the V to profile in which ever way you want (from memory) but does the Rocket allow you to do this as well........does anyone else want to smack Herman in the face or is it just me...LOL


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mr Kidd I think the r60 will have different pumps and tech than a V .


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I think...don't overthink the whole decision too much. A lot of it is on looks, sometimes it's resale value, other times it's I like this manufacturer and not that one.

Profitec 700, don't know have not reviewed one yet...not hugely interested in doing so as it's just another dual boiler. However it has a shot timer (whoopee do) and a steel boilers (are they thin beancan boilers less than 0.7mm are they good steel AISI 316L...I don't know). Is the PID proper dual loop or not, does it have separate P I and D parameters for the steam boiler e.g. p2, i2 and d2.

Verona (Brass brew boiler, nice, no taste and antibacterial (steel is not).. proper Dual loop PID, it can have separate PID parameters for steam and brew boiler (this is quite important) allowing you to fine tune the brew boiler response. There be drain valves and there be drain valves, the veronas ones I believe are the most accessible and a few blocks for each foot and a flat tray and your good. Verona cannot autofill during a shot, that's been locked out.

Duetto...Izzo making changes for changes sake and in response to some American retailers., most changes have simply increased cost and in some cases reduced function. it now has a very big chin, with a small drip tray, it used to have a really big drip tray and a small chin. Are they still using that old PID where the parameters for steam and brew boiler are shared, resulting in a steaming power loss of 20%. What happened, how did they stagnate so much. It's a good machine, but not amongst the best. They still have a nice heavy gauge construction, decent wiring...but overall the basics have not changed for a long time. I think the tank is very small as they used that spring platform and when they went to a hall effect float were too lazy to change to a much larger tank. my old MK1 I converted to electronic water detection (using the existing Gicar which has that function and I have a 2.8 litre tank in it...largest you can buy).

Lots of things to consider, all the machines tend to have something...the Verona a little less than most. I was involved heavily in the Duetto design MK1 machine and also the Verona design., but I'm not parochial and own both machines...plus the V


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think for me, there were three machines, or rather now 2. The Duetto has been around too long and not changed much. The Verona appeals as does the 700 but what goes against the 700 is the fact that it is a relative unknown, although I do not doubt its pedigree. @DavidBondy, hows the GS3? They still appeal but I am not spending 5k on a machine, unless it can spring clean the house and do the gardening!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I bought the Pro 700 mainly based on looks and size. I wanted a machine that would be of great quality, but also wanted something that my wife would approve. At the end it was between the R58, the Duetto and the Verona, and it was the Pro 700 which caught my eye.

If wasn't for the looks, the Verona on paper seems like the ideal machine. Copper boilers - although more expensive machines like the R60, and the Vesuvius also have stainless steel boilers and I am unsure the reasons why given the advantages of copper/brass as stated above - and the drain valves. For me, the Verona and the Duetto were just a bit bulkier and space in the kitchen counter is at a premium (That was the reason I also went for the Pro t64 grinder instead of other bulkier ones, so a bit of a compromise there).

4 months of ownership and I am truly enjoying the machine.

@DavecUK, I checked the manual of the Pro 700 manual and the PID settings itself and, as far as I can tell, there aren't independent settings for the P, the I and the D. See:

http://www.profitec-espresso.com/fileadmin/redakteurupload/Produkte/Pro700/PID_Einstellungen/PID_Einstellungen_Pro700_englisch.pdf


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Get yourself another bargain gs3


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

The Duetto has not changed much the last couple of years - the pump is still located above the RPM-M and the parameters are still shared (the Verona/ V2B/ M58 and Isomac newest DB are to my knowledge the only exceptions, not even the soon to be launched ECM DB has separate parameters) - the thank is still crappy, thin and made of second graded materials but at least you can fill it easier these days, so the internals hasn't changed much, it is basically the same cramped old construction, but at least you won't cut yourself on the outer case 

For me I prefer the new looks, never fancied the old design, where Izzo basically just bended a piece of steal around the frame. So I do agree with the redesign, they had to do something as their competitors made machines with more appealing looks and more refined outer cases. People do care about these things.

Pro700 should be using high quality steel for the boilers although not Vesuvius quality, it's a gicar pid just with a different display - it looks and feels nice but I just did not bother paying so much for a DB


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@pessutojr

thanks for your thoughts. I am lucky in as much as space is not an issue. The Rocket does not appeal as others have mentioned. I like the looks of the 700 butI also like the proven performance and quality of the Verona.....I might end up going down to BB for a play


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## dancing james (Nov 29, 2015)

We wanted something reliable and stable that was not too complicated and would not be an eyesore in our kitchen. I know it's a little controversial but a heat exchange machine seems less complicated and the Orchestrale Nota ticked the boxes for us, the huge boiler gives it great stability and it is doing everything we want, wonderfully. We can now produce consistent coffee that was never possible with rancilio silvia.

One day a Marzocco gs3 may be on the cards, for when I'd rather spend more time faffing around with every variable known to man.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

dancing james said:


> We wanted something reliable and stable that was not too complicated and would not be an eyesore in our kitchen. I know it's a little controversial but a heat exchange machine seems less complicated and the Orchestrale Nota ticked the boxes for us, the huge boiler gives it great stability and it is doing everything we want, wonderfully. We can now produce consistent coffee that was never possible with rancilio silvia.
> 
> One day a Marzocco gs3 may be on the cards, for when I'd rather spend more time faffing around with every variable known to man.


Hi James, perversely,I thought about buying another Nota, so happy am I with it. It does not suffer from being labelled an HX and performs flawlessly. I am glad you are enjoying yours


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## lotuseater (Dec 25, 2015)

What is wrong with the Rockets? They win the looks competition hands down to my eyes, but the internals and spec?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

lotuseater said:


> What is wrong with the Rockets? They win the looks competition hands down to my eyes, but the internals and spec?


I am not saying there is anything wrong with Rockets, but their branding does not appeal to me one little bit


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I do want to make clear, we can be very casual about machines that are close to the top end of the general prosumer market. These machines are all light years above things like a Silvia or a Classic and I can be very very picky. At the end of the day pretty much all of them do a very very good job. I think its great that looks influence people and not just technical numbers, because if it didn't, then it would be so boring if everyone bought the same machine.

There are some machines I just don't like, but they are very few and far in between and even those have their good points. I do think buyers should think 3 or 4 years down the road about their purchase. In terms of how easy will it be to work on, what type of faults can I expect, does it have any weaknesses, what about spares, what about support. Also not to just assume something. If it's not a machine I have reviewed and taken apart, don't assume anything

e.g.



malling said:


> Pro700 should be using high quality steel for the boilers although not Vesuvius quality, it's a gicar pid just with a different display


Now perhaps your right, but perhaps your not, but it's this sort of assumption that becomes belief...people should ask the thickness of the boilers, the end plates and the exact grade of steel and the manufacturer should be proud to respond. If it was just a gicar PID with a different display again a huge assumption QM use one that has been programmed differently, otherwise they would all be using the same and they're not.

Just to give an example of how an assumption can be come belief, when on another thread I was told the El Roccio machine I am looking at has 5 programmable profiles with a number of stages on each...and it doesn't, doesn't even have 1, just a couple of preinfusion profiles.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Linea Mini? Lot of folk on HB seemed very happy with them. A number even said they preferred it to the GS/3.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> @pessutojr
> 
> thanks for your thoughts. I am lucky in as much as space is not an issue. The Rocket does not appeal as others have mentioned. I like the looks of the 700 butI also like the proven performance and quality of the Verona.....I might end up going down to BB for a play


That's exactly what I did. Spent a few hours at BB to see the machines in the flesh there, and I would recommend people do exactly that (BB or other) if they are thinking of buying a new machine.

Regarding the Rockets, I had a Cellini for 1 month. I couldn't get on with an HX machine and it was making a strange noise when brewing. Probably nothing to worry about, but it was annoying when you spend good money on a machine and makes strange noises that other machines on display there did not. BB was great took my machine back, so I went for the Pro 700. Unlike many others here, I didn't like the looks of the R58, and that detachable PID just wasn't for me.


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> @DavidBondy, hows the GS3?


I still absolutely love my GS/3 and have no plans to change it. I used to think of great espresso as a journey and I went through a number of machines over a period of twenty or so years but was always searching for that 'something.' I made some ill-informed (and costly) decisions along the way but once I bought my first GS/3 (from @EricC), I knew that I was almost there.

It was whilst I was at Eric's that I first saw the Versalab M3 and knew that I had to go in that direction. As you know, I bought myself a new M3 and then had @Terranova do some work on it until it was probably as good as it could be. Swapping my ex-Eric GS/3 MP with @coffeechap for your ex-GS/3 AV was the best move that I have ever made and I have been totally content with my set-up for well over a year now and have no plans to change it. It did take a bit of learning to programme the AV but once that was done I was and remain happy.

I have noticed that a lot of people (including myself) contribute less to this forum after they have acquired their "final" set-up - it is certainly true of me. What advice could I offer? Not much compared to the experts here!

I suppose that, for me, the end of the journey was (is?) that I can reliably repeat and repeat and repeat making what is to me the perfect cup of espresso. I like very dark-roasted beans (usually home-roasted Old Brown Java but when I am being lazy then Coffee Compass' French Breakfast Blend) and drink it straight up.

If the journey was enormous fun and how I met so many nice and interesting folks from such diverse backgrounds then arriving has been an even greater pleasure ...

David


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

Dave you can get a Picture of the thickness of the boilers in this youtube clip, weather or not they used thicker steel for the boilers In the cutaway model can't tell.






It is gicar pid that is obviously from both picture and the video, but I expect it to be programed for Profitec specifically just like it is the case with Vetrano/verona


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

malling said:


> Dave you can get a Picture of the thickness of the boilers in this youtube clip, weather or not they used thicker steel for the boilers In the cutaway model can't tell.


Sure, you can see them, they look reasonable, but again it's just an assumption. I don't know for sure how thick they are, I don't know exactly the grade of steel used. it could be fantastic, but I just don't know. Certeainly they at least don't look like the pressformed beancans one manufacturer uses.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

Isn't that the case with most boilers, unless you have taken them apart or cut them in half you have no clue how thick these are. It is not like manufactures or retailers are giving us that sort of information. The information we are getting is something like copper or brass boilers and that is pretty much it.

So I find it a bit difficult to see why profitec should be more informative.

The only way we can gain these information if someone like you are testing them or pulling informations out of them, I truly doubt many of these are going to bother if an average user ask them

That said I do understand that you do not want to test another e61 db - but it also means people are going to get informations from less knowledgable people or less reliable sources , and therefore some of the informations might not be entirely correct.

But we at least have an idea that the thickness isn't too bad - we might not have the exact measurements but I guess most can live without.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

I have a Duetto, not sure which version but it is some 2/3 years old. Been happy with it and if I have to express a criticism, it is that the innards are too crammed in for such a big unit. The motor sitting below the pump is also not ideal.

Same PID settings for both water and steam but makes no difference to the steam output as the heater comes on virtually immediately the valve is open. In fact PID is overkill for steam as the ID play no useful role.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

malling said:


> Isn't that the case with most boilers, unless you have taken them apart or cut them in half you have no clue how thick these are. It is not like manufactures or retailers are giving us that sort of information. The information we are getting is something like copper or brass boilers and that is pretty much it.
> 
> So I find it a bit difficult to see why profitec should be more informative. .


If you ask the dealers, the dealers will ask Profitec and profitec will provide the specifications....If you don't, then you may not get told.


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## Snakehips (Jun 2, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> No drain taps on the 700.....no shot timer on the Verona


I'm a little late to this thread but I don't think anybody has yet pointed out that the current model Verona does indeed have shot timer --- displayed via the PID.

Apart from the fact that I occasionally miss the looks of my old Giotto I have absolutely no regrets in having gone DB with the Verona.

For reasons already stated by others, it's a joy to use.

And the coffee aint three bad either.


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

You should of bought a Legend David. You wouldn't be looking at any other machines after that purchase


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

> Dave you can get a Picture of the thickness of the boilers in this youtube clip, weather or not they used thicker steel for the boilers In the cutaway model can't tell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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