# Coffee for BEGINNERS



## pd53 (May 21, 2020)

Warning - I'm really at the beginning, but want to try to get it right!

Hopefully this is the correct section of the forum.

I see a lot of coffee recipes about 18g in, 36g out - the 1:2 recipe, and run water for 25-35 seconds. I got a Gaggia Classic today. The larger basket and perfect Crema basket are 14g and the single basket is 7g, as per gaggia Classic website.

My questions are:

a) does the 14g basket therefore only take 14g so it would be 14g in, 28 out, or can you add a little more than 14g (like the 18g recipes)

b) I aim to start with the Crema basket, but if I just want to use the single espresso basket, for the 7 in, 14 out, do you run a lot less water through (like 20 seconds) Though I also read though always make a double!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

1:2 isn't a recipe, it's just a ratio. The recipe would be hitting the flavour notes within reason, without hitting any malfunctions,like sour under-extraction. The ratio primarily sets the concentration of the shot, Coffee is enjoyed at a wide range of concentrations, any that tastes good to you is right.

Imagine a recipe for chicken & chips. Half a chicken to twenty chips is just the ingredients, it doesn't describe what the expected outcome should be, the recipe does this.  If your chicken is under-cooked and your chips are sticks of charcoal, adding more chips, or using less chicken is just changing the ratio of the malfunction.

18g:32g isn't 1:2. It's 1:1.8 (32/18=1.7778).

You can probably use 16g in the classic double basket.

You don't determine the quality of the shot by the time it runs for, yes it is very likely to be more than 20seconds and less than 50seconds, but you really want to use the grind setting to steer the flavour balance. Record the time the pump runs for, just in case you get some crazy different times with the same coffee (say tens of seconds, a couple of seconds either way isn't indicative of anything). Grind setting drives extraction, extraction takes time, but time is not an accurate way of ending a shot.


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## pd53 (May 21, 2020)

Thanks. Typo on the maths! I've amended that. 
Told you I was a beginner. Ratio is the phrase then. I've not mastered the terminology

So no more than 16g then. Suppose I'll just play about with it. Thanks


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## pd53 (May 21, 2020)

In all videos I see, for example






they are always made with two cups.

Do you always make espresso this way? Is this two single espressos? Using one cup I guess it would fill quicker? So less of a run time? So do you merge these two singles?

Or can you just put 7g, for example, into the portafilter and make it in one cup, with less of a run time?

As per thread title - coffee for beginners!

EDIT: I've just seen there is a 'Barista' section of the forum. Maybe this should be there. Apologies.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

pd53 said:


> In all videos I see, for example
> 
> they are always made with two cups.
> 
> ...


 You're still talking abut "run time".

Whether you make a single shot of 8g:16g, or a double of 16:32g, the shot times will overlap to a degree that makes it impossible to differentiate.

Grind setting sets flavour balance, focus on this & hitting your target weight in the cup.

If you pull 16:32g into one cup, or two cups (16g each), it won't make any difference to shot time, you'll still stop so the scales read 32g total.


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## allikat (Jan 27, 2020)

Also remember that a single shot is much harder to get right than a double. This is why doubles are the most commonly made shot.

The smaller amount of coffee in a single basket and their design where the water doesn't have to go through much of the coffee puck is what makes them more tricky. If you look at a single basket, most of them have only a few holes in the bottom, much fewer than a double basket, which will have holes over almost all the base for coffee to flow out from. Remembering that water under pressure will take the easiest path, then you will regularly find that a single shot can be both over and underextracted at the same time! How? Look at the basket. The mid part will have the most flow, and usually end up over-extracted, while the outer part, less travelled by water will be under extracted. The Single pretty much has channelling built in.

TL;DR: Make doubles, they're easier to get right. If you want less coffee, split the shot and discard one.


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## pd53 (May 21, 2020)

My first issue is that I don't yet have a grinder. I got my coffee preground for my machine, so I can't use this as a variable yet.

About the 1 or 2 cups, I was using the assumption that people make espresso into espresso cups, and they only hold so much coffee. So when mine filled up yesterday, on my first attempt, in like 16 seconds I wondered if something was up.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

pd53 said:


> My first issue is that I don't yet have a grinder. I got my coffee preground for my machine, so I can't use this as a variable yet.
> 
> About the 1 or 2 cups, I was using the assumption that people make espresso into espresso cups, and they only hold so much coffee. So when mine filled up yesterday, on my first attempt, in like 16 seconds I wondered if something was up.


 How did it taste?

As you say, you can't control extraction by grind setting, so all you can do is balance the shot by finding the right brew ratio for your grind. You may fit the whole shot in one demitasse, but you may end up with hang to use a larger cup/weaker shot. Explore this methodically, start at the shorter ratio and pull shots progressively heavier by say 5g each time, record which tasted best.


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## pd53 (May 21, 2020)

It was good. 
Just made another there into one larger cup. 15g in, ran it for 25 seconds, and the weight after is 53g!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

pd53 said:


> It was good.
> Just made another there into one larger cup. 15g in, ran it for 25 seconds, and the weight after is 53g!


 Were you aiming for 53g?

How much did you have after 16s in the previous shot?

I ask because it is not clear what ratio you are aiming for? You're still, for unknown reasons, talking about shot time.


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## pd53 (May 21, 2020)

Forgot to weigh the first ones this morning.

i wasn't aiming for anything as such. I have read of 1:2 ratio, so I suppose I was hoping for 30g
The reason I mention shot time is because I keep seeing about running the water for 20-30 seconds, so that's what I did. 
I only got the machine yesterday and have never made espresso like this before, or weighed my coffee before and after etc. I am a complete novice and I'm just trying to work out what to do!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

pd53 said:


> Forgot to weigh the first ones this morning.
> 
> i wasn't aiming for anything as such. I have read of 1:2 ratio, so I suppose I was hoping for 30g
> The reason I mention shot time is because I keep seeing about running the water for 20-30 seconds, so that's what I did.
> I only got the machine yesterday and have never made espresso like this before, or weighed my coffee before and after etc. I am a complete novice and I'm just trying to work out what to do!


 Sure, but if you run the pump for 30s you're going to get a lot more liquid in the cup than if you run it for 20s. The amount of liquid in the cup is the biggest driver of extraction, much more influence than time. So hitting a specific weight will be more consistent.

Also, 20-30s isn't a real thing, sure it might work more often than not, but it'a bizarrely wide tolerance isn't it (+50%/-33%)?

Illy stated 15-50s, INEI state 20-30s at about 1:3.5.

But generally timings assume you can control grind size, you can't, you can only control input & output weights until your grinder arrives.


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## pd53 (May 21, 2020)

So I need to work out what 30g (or whatever ratio I want) looks like in a cup, then aim to get that amount of coffee in the cup.

I've been doing it in the wrong order (ie see how much 20 seconds gives me)


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## Home Coffee Tips (May 5, 2020)

pd53 said:


> So I need to work out what 30g (or whatever ratio I want) looks like in a cup, then aim to get that amount of coffee in the cup.
> 
> I've been doing it in the wrong order (ie see how much 20 seconds gives me)


 A double shot tends to be around 2oz/60ml. I find using a measures espresso glass is really useful to consistently aim for the 60ml mark


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

pd53 said:


> So I need to work out what 30g (or whatever ratio I want) looks like in a cup, then aim to get that amount of coffee in the cup.
> 
> I've been doing it in the wrong order (ie see how much 20 seconds gives me)


 No you need to work out what ratio tastes good. Which you seem to have done?

Then try to produce that.

A set of cheap jeweller's scales from amazon/ebay under cup will let you hit your target.

If you get a grinder you can try different ratios but don't expect to be able to pull to a 1:2 ratio with anything.


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## pd53 (May 21, 2020)

Home Coffee Tips said:


> A double shot tends to be around 2oz/60ml. I find using a measures espresso glass is really useful to consistently aim for the 60ml mark


 If you're getting about 60ml are you still using 14-18g of coffee?

The basket I am using is the Gaggia perfect Crema basket, which I believe is a 14g basket.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

pd53 said:


> If you're getting about 60ml are you still using 14-18g of coffee?
> 
> The basket I am using is the Gaggia perfect Crema basket, which I believe is a 14g basket.


 A double shot is what you make it, see @Rob1 's post above.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

pd53 said:


> If you're getting about 60ml are you still using 14-18g of coffee?
> 
> The basket I am using is the Gaggia perfect Crema basket, which I believe is a 14g basket.


 Also the perfect crema basket is the pressurised one right? Dump it. It lets you use stale pre-ground or the dreaded omni-grind.


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## pd53 (May 21, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> Also the perfect crema basket is the pressurised one right? Dump it. It lets you use stale pre-ground or the dreaded omni-grind.


 I read it was best for beginners. I'll use the other 'Proper' basket provided next time then.


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