# UPgradeitus Strikes.



## redricks (Jul 8, 2012)

But what to go for dual boiler ie..Expobar dual leva or HX ie...ECM Barista. Any advice recommendations etc....... would be greatly appreciated.

If your wondering why i currently have a Rancilio Silvia mk3 and whilst she is an amazing machine i want something i can steam and brew with without the waiting time in our household we tend to have milk based drinks.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Set a budget!!!


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## redricks (Jul 8, 2012)

Sorry. Somewhere around the £1100-£1200 max mark.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Of course I'd say Londinium I, although it's just out of your price range.

Fracino or Expobar for value for money, Rocket or ECM for style. All the machines in that price range do the job, but perhaps a trip to Bella Barista is the answer?

But have a look at Londinium I...

But do you have a grinder?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rolo beat me to it...have you got a grinder to do the job? I have recently sold an Expobar Leva (dual boiler) and whilst there are other similar machines around it, I would without doubt buy another if circumstances arose. A lot on here, myself included, would recommend Bellabarista as a place to visit and they have a good range in stock, will help you and offer brilliant after sales!


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## redricks (Jul 8, 2012)

Thanks so far all.Yes would love a trip to Bella Barista but its a trip too far.Yes have a Rocky grinder but pleanty of people seem to rate the Vario to use with this level of machine so that was also considered and the price set to £1100-1200 for the machine.


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## Shady (Jan 1, 2013)

I upgraded from the same to a Rocket HX machine. You can get a premium plus for that price although I'd try and stretch to approx £1350 and get the evoluzione - it has a rotary pump and can work off reservoir or mains.


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## redricks (Jul 8, 2012)

Umm a Rocket please since you upgraded from the Silvia why the Rocket?.


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## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

Another vote for Bella Barista, check out their website, and check out the Londinium I if you fancy a lever machine.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Check out the Eureka Mignon......it will annoy all Vario owners to know a machine which costs less, kicks its ass all the way home in every department (and is available from BB)


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## redricks (Jul 8, 2012)

Thankyou had a look at the Eureka kind of screams style over performance but i would guess you and others think differently....is she that good...... if she is ... why do you think so please


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

have a look on the bb website.

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-grinders/coffee-grinders/eureka-mignon-instantaneo-grinder-auto-manual-white.html

Scroll to the bottom and download the grinder comparison pdf. the chap who wrote if, I know well and to put it simply, if he said to me jump, my response would be how high.......most people like or dislike things based upon marketing and other peoples perceptions. the hype surrounding the Vario was astounding, for a number of reasons, however, the one place you can measure the two machines side by side is in the cup! I have owned both together....see if you can try both....certainly bb will let you do that, then you can make your own mind up


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## redricks (Jul 8, 2012)

looking at the video's online the Eurika does a better job looks a nice fluffy grind and a bit less expensive than a Vario wish i had seen this before i purchased the Rocky now but hey ho.


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## redricks (Jul 8, 2012)

Any way thats the grinder now what about the machine come on guys and dolls lets have a good debate.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

HX or dual boiler will steam and brew at the same time with enough for home needs. For me, the dual boiler/PID is only a requirement if you are going to be changing brew temperatures regularly. At that price range they are all good and will come down to personal preference.


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## jimrobo (Aug 5, 2011)

The Mignon is a good grinder but it definitely has its downfalls IMHO.


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## tcr4x4 (Jan 2, 2013)

jimrobo said:


> The Mignon is a good grinder but it definitely has its downfalls IMHO.


As someone saving up to buy one, care to expand?

Im not sure I like the varios looks. The Mignon seems to fit the bill perfect for me, but interested to hear other opinions in it.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

redricks said:


> ....what about the machine come on guys and dolls lets have a good debate.


Seeing as you have asked...it has to be a lever. Why? It has pedigree but that on its own isn't sufficient. With a lever, the extraction pressure reduces as the shot progresses, as does the temperature. It is argued, this benefits the quality of shot with less likelihood of unwanted elements being extracted. Sure, levers aren't everyone's cup of coffee. But the process of pulling a shot, deciding how long to leave the lever down to preinfuse is quite absorbing. Of course, there are machines that allow you to preinfuse electronically but lever machines have a dimension to them I can only describe as purely tactile. Dual boiler, HX models, PID are excellent and deliver the goods but in a way I would described as 'digital' to the lever's 'analogue' approach. It all depends on what rings the bell for you and in which way. You did ask!


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## jimrobo (Aug 5, 2011)

tcr4x4 said:


> As someone saving up to buy one, care to expand?
> 
> Im not sure I like the varios looks. The Mignon seems to fit the bill perfect for me, but interested to hear other opinions in it.


Nothing major! It does have a tendancy to go clumpy though when you grind fine (think rabbit droppings in the portafilter!), the hopper is small. You'll be wanting to fill that up a few times if you have a few friends round and I found it to be quite messy. I was constantly cleaning grinds miles away from it. I can't directly compare it to the vario because I've never used one.

I'd also add if my machine blew up tomorrow I would replace it with a dual boiler E61. Probably the same expobar dual lever I currently have. The only thing I would be tempted with is a rotary and something with a low reservoir warning light rather than a straight cut off. The cut off on the expobar is one thing that really drives me nuts! I'd think about a lever, I'd imagine myself pulling various shots, adjusting pressure and speed on the fly riding the wave of perfect espresso all day......but then I'd scrap it and go for consistency and less faffage every time!


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Why, even though I've only just bought my classic, do I feel strangely drawn to asking how much you want for your old set up


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

What The Systematic Kid says.

Lever machines, by their nature, have built-in temperature and pressure profiling, which high-end commerical machines like La Marzocco and Synesso do with electronics.

There are a couple of La Marzocco GS3 owners that have swapped their £5000 machines for the Londinium I because they think it makes better coffee.

Of course, you can't play around easily with temperature on a lever machine. But then, you probably won't want to.


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## twistywizard (Sep 3, 2012)

A vote for the Expobar Dual Leva! I have one and love it.

I got it from Ravecoffee for £1050 delivered about 3 months ago.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have to agree that the Mignon can be a little prone to clumpos...but, so what? You ought to distribute your grind in any case, unless you have an absolutely perfect grinder. In other words, get a cocktail stick and stir it like many/most do. IMHO, it is no reason not to buy it! as for messy, mine was as well, until I realised that you can hold the pf handle right under the chute, so the grinds all fall in perfectly, or you cut a tube, I used a metal pepper container and sit it in so that the grinds falls down into the pf, but, you dont need to if you hold the handle high enough up!


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## jimrobo (Aug 5, 2011)

I always found I couldn't hold the portafilter close enough to the chute and press the pressure switch. It would just throw grinds all over the place with most going in the portafilter. Thats what I love about my current grinder though. No distribution needed. A decent grinder does the work for you. Grind straight into the portafilter perfectly and all thats needed is a straight single tamp.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I did not struggle with holding the pf handle high up, and that was using a naked as well. As mentioned, if you make a tube to fit in the pf handle that also sorts it out. But you cannot really compare the grinder you have now to a Mignon.

On choosing a machine, I really would take the time to find a retailer who has a wide selection of machines in stock, and who will let you play with them and make your choice.

I am sorry, but anyone who really listens to the advice us hams dish out on forums and acts on it, wants to book a series of appointments with a shrink! Listen to what people tell you, but take responsibility yourself and go the extra mile....all machines have their good and bad points and people will gldly tell you what is good about theirs...!


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## jimrobo (Aug 5, 2011)

I'm not comparing it to a pro M. I'm just saying after using it for over a year it is a good grinder that has its downsides. If I went back and my choices were mignon or vario I'd probably go for vario just on reputation.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

jimrobo said:


> Nothing major! It does have a tendancy to go clumpy though when you grind fine (think rabbit droppings in the portafilter!), the hopper is small. You'll be wanting to fill that up a few times if you have a few friends round and I found it to be quite messy. I was constantly cleaning grinds miles away from it. I can't directly compare it to the vario because I've never used one.


Urr, don't pretty much all grinders clump when you grind really fine, also dependent on how oily the coffee is?

Just how large a hopper do you need to serve how many people?


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## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

i actually like the fact that it has a relatively small hopper. and you can buy a larger hopper for it.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

See, you ought to be really confused by now! I had 2 varios and disliked them both, having had the K30 immediately beforehand which I loved. I bought the vario on the back of that and hated it. But, the vario is a lot better than many grinders of less cost, but, not as good, IMHO as the Mignon.......but, thats just my opinion..what the hell do I know!


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## jimrobo (Aug 5, 2011)

Wow you downgraded!

I can't comment personally on the vario because I've never used one! Probably why I would give one a go given the choice again. I've seen it plenty of times in shops as backup grinders and I'm fairly sure it's glens grinder of choice so that would sway it for me. If you've used one (or even 2!) and didn't like it then that's obviously not the grinder for you!

As far as the small hopper issue it's clearly not a major problem with it! Just something that stuck in my mind from using it for a year.


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## Nimble Motionists (Oct 22, 2012)

I have an Expobar Dual Boiler and a Vario. Would recommend both but if I were buying again I'd definitely want to take a look at a Mignon and a Londinium I. My Expobar is only 6 months old so I'm currently resisting the temptation to try out an L1!!


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Having owned a Mignon for a while now and previously gone through several other home grinders I can say from my experience there is nothing better up to and including the Mazzer SJ. That is purely based on grind quality and essentially flavour in the final cup. There are issues with all grinders, big and small.

I wouldn't recommend storing beans in a hopper anyway so the size is no issue, most home users remove hoppers anyway and load straight into the feed. Clumpiness I do not have an issue with, yes there can be some clumps but they can be knocked out in a few seconds. I grind straight into a pot, not the portafilter which is primarily to prevent some mess but also means I just knock the grounds about to remove any small clumps, then load. It may seem like a faff but the time it costs is saved on extra cleaning and a WDT which is also a faff.

There are obviously better grinders out there when you start spending £500+, but I have not used anything better sub £500 than the little Mignon.


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## jimrobo (Aug 5, 2011)

to be honest if I was in the price range of a mignon and a vario I'd ditch both and look for a 2nd hand Mazzer on Ebay. Way better than both of those put together.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

jimrobo said:


> to be honest if I was in the price range of a mignon and a vario I'd ditch both and look for a 2nd hand Mazzer on Ebay. Way better than both of those put together.


Depends on the Mazzer. I would say the mini and SJ are not better.


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## jimrobo (Aug 5, 2011)

the royal is in budget 2nd hand.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

True, and that would be a step up in quality, although brings with in a new set of issues regarding the titans!


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## Nimble Motionists (Oct 22, 2012)

Going down the used route it's also worth keeping an eye out for used Anfim grinders. Occasional bargains like: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Anfim-Super-Caimano-Barista-on-demand-Espresso-Grinder-/281074716649?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item41715bcfe9


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Eureka are great grinders, but the mignon better than an sj? Please! You can also get a brand new sj on eBay for 375 way under 500. You would just have to live with the size. Apart from size and weight what exactly are the issues with a royal and you can get a refurb royal for £400.


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## redricks (Jul 8, 2012)

Sorry guys have not had chance today to reply to the thread i started but i still think i will go for The Expobar.


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

I own an Expobar Leva HX and the Mignon, all from Bella Barista. Clumpiness on the grind? Yes. Good end results, heavy well made grinder that can take some use without getting hot? Yes. I took it to the UKBC and used it on stage alongside a Mahlkonig! I use two SJ's at work, all three taste great I think.

I adore my Expobar, and don't really have many gripes. Steam pressure is ok, would like more but you can get lovely microfoam from it and easy to control. Recovery time from pulling an Americano/tea is good. All in all a nice little machine for home use, gets hot pretty quick too, easy to descale and clean in general (Keep that microfibre cloth handy!). Shots are absolutely 5 star for a sub £1000 machine.


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## redricks (Jul 8, 2012)

Thats it im officially confused theres so many machine so much choice around the £1000 mark have just had another look at Bellabarista at the hx machines and seen the Izzo Vivi PID and The ECM Barista and the above mentioned Expobar and the Bezzera Mitica,the ECM has the looks of its more expensive cousin Rocket, the Izzo looks good has a PID (really necessary?) and insulated boiler.and on and on and on..................HELP Please.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

redricks said:


> Thats it im officially confused theres so many machine so much choice around the £1000 mark have just had another look at Bellabarista at the hx machines and seen the Izzo Vivi PID and The ECM Barista and the above mentioned Expobar and the Bezzera Mitica,the ECM has the looks of its more expensive cousin Rocket, the Izzo looks good has a PID (really necessary?) and insulated boiler.and on and on and on..................HELP Please.


Buy one. Or another.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

forzajuve said:


> True, and that would be a step up in quality, although brings with in a new set of issues regarding the titans!


What issues would they be?


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Possibly grind retention? That's the one that puts me off the big boys.

I've been contemplating grinders for about a week now. My first problem is how to tell the girlfriend I'm thinking of replacing the mc2 she bought me for christmas. The second is that I can't actually find another grinder that appeals to me.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Grind retention of my Royal is less than 0.1g as I have full access to the grind path with a brush. The 900w motor and 83mm burrs means a 'pulse' purges everything into the doser.

Using it traditionally with hopper as a cafe would then retention is about 2.5-3g depending how fine youre grinding. The high rate of usage in a shop renders this as a non problem.

Now conical doser-less titans on the other hand......5-10g retention


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

garydyke1 said:


> Grind retention of my Royal is less than 0.1g as I have full access to the grind path with a brush. The 900w motor and 83mm burrs means a 'pulse' purges everything into the doser.
> 
> Using it traditionally with hopper as a cafe would then retention is about 2.5-3g depending how fine youre grinding. The high rate of usage in a shop renders this as a non problem.
> 
> Now conical doser-less titans on the other hand......5-10g retention


So you run 5g through before using grounds. It's such a massive issue with owning a large conical everyone would have you believe.


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