# Descaling



## Nick R (Dec 6, 2019)

What's the general opinion on choice of descaler for a Sage machine? Should I get Sage's own (if so why?), or will any supermarket descaler do? I didn't notice anything specific in the manual about this.

Thanks.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

It *might* depend on the machine and how much scale etc. 
I used high conc. citric acid once a month on my DTP but on the new barista pro it has a thermojet, so according to a few sources water spends less time in it and therefore might need something faster acting.

I plan on using kilrock (lactic acid) on my next descale which I think should be ok.

The sage one is malic, sulphuric and tartaric acid although I don't know what proportions. 
Correction the sage website now says its malic SULPHAMIC and CITRIC.

I was led to believe ones with sulphamic acid in would be good.


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## Nick R (Dec 6, 2019)

Thanks Tom. This sounds more complicated than I realised! Excuse my ignorance, what what's a DTP? I have an Oracle Touch - do different machines need different descalers? Maybe I just go for the Sage one, which will hopefully be suitable.


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## longhardgrind (Mar 17, 2017)

I just ordered some of this (Cafetto at Home Eco Powder Descaler )

from Amazon, which, if my quick bit of research is correct, is pretty much what sage is selling for a lot more money?


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

longhardgrind said:


> I just ordered some of this (Cafetto at Home Eco Powder Descaler )
> 
> from Amazon, which, if my quick bit of research is correct, is pretty much what sage is selling for a lot more money?


 What acids does it have in it? 
I can only find it has citric and tartaric, whereas the sage has sulphamic and malic.

DTP = Duo temp pro, which has a thermocoil. 
New machines have a thermojet which heats the water faster and may require a faster acting acid in the descaler, which I *believe* is sulphamic.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

What is this thermojet exactly?


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## longhardgrind (Mar 17, 2017)

This is all I could dig up?

Name CASProportionCitric acid77-92-9>60%Tartaric acidIngredients determined not to be hazardous87-69-4Not required5-10%Balance


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> What is this thermojet exactly?


 New system from breville/sage. 
I don't know the exact setup but it's superfast to heat up and water shoots through it fast, so doesn't sit in it like a boiler. 
Hence the idea behind faster acting descalers?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> What is this thermojet exactly?


 There is a picture of it on Sage's web pages on one of the models that use it. Instead of a coil and I assume a coiled heater it has a flat spiral heater with a "block" off to one side. The block seems to be the bit the water goes through. Suspect it's more thermally agile than the coil. It seems to have the same feature as the thermocoil going on posts mentioning preheating shots. It's set to some temperature but that cools as soon as cold water hits it and takes time to recover. Until recently only one other person has mentioned a method of preheating it other than me. Doing that probably results in a few ml being too hot. On the other hand the thermojets might not need it. Flushing on a BE didn't do anything useful other than probably warming the shower screen up a bit. This is one reason why I settled on using a shot through an empty dual wall.

While Sage mention sulphamic acid in their descaler I wouldn't be at all surprised if there is none in it. People use all sorts to save little. I'd suggest they use Puly's. Like just about all that can be used it contains a mix of fruit acids. They wont be doing that for fun. It's also what their engineers use according to one anyway and they do go around fixing scale problems. Durgol have a video demonstrating their descaler, citric acid and acetic via vinegar. The engineer mentioned that Sage used to suggest vinegar but I've never seen any comments anywhere.

Descaling the DB has proved interesting. If the descale doesn't remove all that is added in use it builds up. Removing it completely has made a lot of difference to how the PID behaves.  I suspect what I did has remove all of it.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> What is this thermojet exactly?


 Just had a look at the crew reviews as Breville sometimes come along and show the bits they use and the changes.  LOLJust saw Gale misusing a barista pro.

John

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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

ajohn said:


> Just had a look at the crew reviews as Breville sometimes come along and show the bits they use and the changes.  LOLJust saw Gale misusing a barista pro.
> 
> John
> 
> -


 What was she doing to it?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Under filling the filter basket using a technique that can be about right on E61 machines, never on any Sage - milk frothing worst I have seen her do, Comments on what weight of beans to waste questionable relating to any grinder. Mostly useless tips in respect to using any machine.

 At least I don't find her voice as irritating as the other lady that gets involved.

John

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## Tonino (Mar 26, 2018)

Sage recommended using heir own brand, and they had told me not to use vinegar anymore, they use to recommend it in the past but not anymore. I have tried many brands and found that the Oust all purpose descaler works the best. I also use some Caffiza pils for the group head, and take the screen out and clean it properly, doing that every two months and using Brita jug filtered water, two and half year so far so good. 
Regards


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## Coffeenoobster (Nov 24, 2018)

longhardgrind said:


> I just ordered some of this (Cafetto at Home Eco Powder Descaler )
> 
> from Amazon, which, if my quick bit of research is correct, is pretty much what sage is selling for a lot more money?


 Hi, sorry to resurrect an old post, but wasn't sure whether to start a new one or not. Anywho, I am in a similar situation where I have looked into the descalers and as you said it seems the sage ones are just manufactured by caffeto. Considering the ingredients are different how are you finding them.

Also are you aware if they have been rebranded to Cafetto restore. Seems the at home version is OOS everywhere.


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Stick with Sage own brand if machine is under warranty would be my recommendation. Do not use vinegar seems to be popular advice too ...

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## longhardgrind (Mar 17, 2017)

It works just fine for my Barista Express. I noticed a while ago that @home was oos. I guess they renamed it. If you want to use their product drop them an email and ask which one has the same ingrediants as the sage descaler.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

@TomHughes

What water do you use? I thought If you use good bottled water (like ashbeck) or soft water or well filtered (like using that RO), you don't need to descale the DTP, only backflush it?


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Wisey said:


> @TomHughes
> 
> What water do you use? I thought If you use good bottled water (like ashbeck) or soft water or well filtered (like using that RO), you don't need to descale the DTP, only backflush it?


 I use the RO now. But when I had a DTP I used relatively hard water and descaled very often


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

@TomHughes

ah ok....I now have a DTP!

i'm in a hard water area so going to use bottled water, Will I not need to descale as using ashbeck (from Tesco, seems a popular choice)


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## Nick R (Dec 6, 2019)

I'm in a hard water area too and 8 months after purchase have yet to be prompted to do a descale, just the cleaning with a tablet. I understand this is normal if you use a filter too? (This is with an Oracle Touch)


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

I have water which is so soft it's effectively pure (<25 on a good day).

I still intend to descale the Gaggia every quarter. It's as much to clean it through as remove scale.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

@Blue_Cafe

isnt that what backflushing it is for?

so, I'm using my machine for the first time tonight!!

I bought the puly caff powder, how often do I have to backflush it using this & clean the baskets in a pot of puly caff/water?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Wisey said:


> @Blue_Cafe
> 
> isnt that what backflushing it is for?
> 
> ...


 Which version of the machine is it? You can't backflush the 2015 - 2018 version.

do it at least weekly to keep solenoid valve nice and free of coffee gunk.

Soak you baskets / portafilter once a month.

remove the shower screen / dispersion screen / group gasket screen and clean it up once a week. A lot of coffee gunk accumulate there. by doing so, you won't find yourself battling trying to remove the dispersion screen and coffee gasket because it's stuck. And your coffee will taste much, much nicer.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Wisey said:


> @Blue_Cafe
> 
> isnt that what backflushing it is for?
> 
> ...


 For the Classic, Gaggia do not instruct the user to perform backflushing and do not reference this practice in the instructions and maintenance manual. Gaggia service agents specifically recommend that backflushing is not performed.

For your new DTP machine, (WOW!) Follow the manufacturers guidance but understand that its a guide and you should adjust it to your own circumstances as instructed.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

@Blue_Cafe

not sure which version, I bought it on Monday.

will it say on the manual which version it is


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Wisey said:


> @Blue_Cafe
> 
> not sure which version, I bought it on Monday.
> 
> will it say on the manual which version it is


 Sorry, my bad. Didn't realise you bought a DTP.

it does not have a 3 way valve, so stick to manufacturer's instructions.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

@MediumRoastSteam

thanks pal.....had my first go with it tonight!


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Wisey said:


> @MediumRoastSteam
> 
> thanks pal.....had my first go with it tonight!


 How did it go?

Do you like it?


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

@MediumRoastSteam

didnt go well but was enjoyable!

had no idea where to start with the grinder, came out in like 10 seconds! Tried changing it slowly but made no difference! After 4 goes the beans wouldn't grind (slight whirr sound but that's it)...gave it a little clean & then the beans popped about & motor worked but didn't grind at all!

maybe the top needs taking off & cleaning out properly?

suprised it needs cleaning after only 4 grinds??


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Wisey said:


> @MediumRoastSteam
> 
> didnt go well but was enjoyable!
> 
> ...


 Which grinder have you? (Very aware we are going way off topic here... "Descaling") 😂


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

@MediumRoastSteam

in the show off your setup I created a thread - 'at last' 😂😂😂

ive got the eureka specialita with DTP machine


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Wisey said:


> @MediumRoastSteam
> 
> in the show off your setup I created a thread - 'at last' 😂😂😂
> 
> ive got the eureka specialita with DTP machine


 Careful not to grind too fine, specially with oily beans. If you do, you'll need to clean it up, and go again.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

@MediumRoastSteam

it was way too coarse.....I've just tried again going finer, still came out in 9 seconds @ the puck was really wet (has been dry previously)


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

what beans? i suggest rave fudge blend is a very good starter bean


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

@Cuprajake

ive started off with the chocolate blend from black cat


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## Coffeenoobster (Nov 24, 2018)

Necromancing this thread just to provide a quick update,

so following a bit of further research I found that sage actually sold cafetto restore themselves albeit in the UAE and not UK.

https://checkout.sageappliances.ae/product/espresso-descaler/

I'd guess this is before they got cafetto to create a proprietary blend, however it's good enough for me to buy a kg from yourspares, which costs about 2 packs of the official formula.

https://www.yourspares.co.uk/parts/ys805162/scale-remover-cafetto-restore-1-kg-1092105.aspx

I will add though that the product came unsealed but I don't see any regulation it must be, the website has decent reviews too. The container came with a measuring spoon too. Will do me as I can descale more often with a lower concentration and maybe treat myself to the sage version now and again.


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