# Silvia is tripping the fuse box/Myespresso



## Edlockwood

Dear all

i bought my machine last March from Myespresso and have enjoyed using it for many months. Sadly about 6 weeks ago we started having problems with the electrics and I finally worked out that it was the coffee machine causing the problems. Since then I moved to plunger coffee and there hasn't been a problem.

an electrician came round to look at the problem and do some other stuff and he tested the machine by passing a current through the plug pins and he said that it was at fault.

3 days ago I sent it to Myespresso at a cost of £33 and received a call the next day saying there was nothing wrong with it. I even got my electrician to call and explain his findings and he was told that there was nothing wrong and that it wasn't doing it now. I asked him to do the current test and he said he'd do it the next day.

i didn't receive a call that day and this morning I recieved a text from a courier saying it was on its way back !! I phoned him and he said that they'd testedd it thoroughly and couldn't find a problem.

Ive just had a quick look through this forum and have found about 5 instances of Silvia s tripping the fuse box. While I hope that he is right I have the sensation that I am being fobbed off. I'm confident that the machine will start tripping the fuse within a week and we could potentially end up repeating this process.

does anyone have any suggestions ?

ed


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## 7493

Assuming you have an RCD in your fusebox the most likely explanation is that the machine has a small leakage to earth. In my experience this is most likely from the heater element. A knowledgeable electrician will be able to check this for you. For example, if there is a current leak when the machine is powered he or she can check this and disconnect internal components one at a time until the culprit is isolated. One further complication is that this condition may only manifest itself under load. I.e. when the element is hot and stressed.

NB I am not suggesting you should try this at home!!!


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## Edlockwood

Thanks rob

my main concern was how to deal with somebody who is denying there is a problem when there quite clearly is. I've just spent an unhappy hour reading the various horror stories connected with said establishment.

the easiest thing to do would be to take to another retailer and pay for a repair but it still has 4 months of warranty left and that sticks in the craw somewhat


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## cawfee

contact rancilio direct. if the machine has warranty left to run they should be able to point you to someone else to take care of it.


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## Wando64

Edlockwood said:


> Thanks rob
> 
> my main concern was how to deal with somebody who is denying there is a problem when there quite clearly is. I've just spent an unhappy hour reading the various horror stories connected with said establishment.
> 
> the easiest thing to do would be to take to another retailer and pay for a repair but it still has 4 months of warranty left and that sticks in the craw somewhat


In fairness if the problem is with the heating element (the most likely scenario) it would have probably been caused by overheating (with low water in the boiler) which is not really covered by any warranty.

I am not sure how anyone would go about proving the real cause one way or another.


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## grumpydaddy

Too much current will trip just one circuit protected by an mcb (miniature circuit breaker) Think in terms of everything plugged into all the sockets on that ring main

If the consumer unit (fuse box) has a bigger switch with a button on it (RCD, residual current device) it probably protects a number of the circuits in the house at once.... and if this is tripping then the issue is likely in failing insulation between live and earth.

The third type of protection is an RCBO which is a combination of over current device and residual current device and looks like a breaker on each circuit but each with an extra button.

It should be possible to use a portable appliance tester to check your Silvia, ideally both when hot and when cold.

It is not beyond the realms of possibility that the combination of two pieces of equipment plugged in at the same time are causing the residual current to exceed limits.

It should not be hard to test if this is so.... just plug in to a circuit that is not protected by the same device

The cost of testing might be prohibitive compared to just buying a new heating element.


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## Thecatlinux

The two main things that would influence a fault are within in a coffee machine would be 1)Heat 2) water .

heat will cause the expansion of various parts of metal and this may lead to a live part momentarily coming into contact with the chassis.

Water or or small droplets (leak) can cause the same effect but would be more noticable,

in in my experience water heating element(s) are more likely to fail rather than get give an intermitant fault.

If when the machine is plugged in and under load heating+pump the fault is non existing , numerous amounts of testing will not be able to find the fault as it is .... Well non existing.

Take the covers off and look at everything and see if you can see anything out of the ordanary, scorching of metal parts,soot deposit s copper splatter bear in mind the tell tale sign may be very small and you may have to be quite forensic in your investigation.


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## Edlockwood

Thanks for everybody's input.The pattern tended to be that I would pull a shot having let it warm up for 20mins or so. Once that was done I would flick the steam switch and within a minute or two the whole thing would go off via the RCD.I have been at pains to always replace the water in the boiler after steaming milk because I know how bad it is for the machine to leave it empty and on.It looks like I will have to keep an eye on it and probably get it looked into eventually but I am still a little dismayed that no great effort was made to get to the root cause of the problem when I returned it to Coventry. Even if I had knackered the heating element, it would have been nice to be given the opportunity to have it replaced.Anyway (grr) thanks for all the posts. E


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## Wando64

I think Grumpydaddy made a valid suggestion that there might not be a fault as such but your home eclectic system might be overloading. All it needs is a spike and that would trip the safety switch.

I would take the machine to someone else's house and have a try there.

If it works fine then you know it is not a problem witht the Silvia.


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## cawfee

from your description "having let it warm up for 20mins or so. Once that was done I would flick the steam switch and within a minute or two the whole thing would go off via the RCD." it's definitely the heating element. basically as it heats it's causing a metal to expand and then it's causing a short - which is tripping out your fuse box. had the same on both kettles and ovens at home, and with industrial ovens (i supply) thru work. replace the heating element would be the first thing to do...and regardless of how it happened if it's in warranty contact rancilio about it, just in case you can get it replaced foc


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## DavecUK

I read this thread with interest.

1. If your RCD is tripping as you describe, it's almost certainly something to do with the machine....probably the heating element...there is a slight chance that it could be something else, but doubtful.

2. To suggest that you MUST have run the boiler dry, by some people, again it's possible, but it's also quite possible there may have been a manufacturing defect.

3. I've said this again and again, buy from retailers in the UK, by from Retailers prepared to properly support you and the machine as a customer!

Point 3 I make because if you don't support UK retailers, then they won't be there in the future when you need them and we will be back to the situation 10+ years ago, where we got well shafted for stuff. it's worth paying a little more to get the right aftersales. On this forum there are reputable retailers, who seem ready and willing to fix problems when they happen. I'll just mention a few

Lakeland (seems you can't go wrong)

John Lewis

Bella Berista

Coffebean (Van and roast guy)

etc..

All of these people are likely to give you good service and take a hit if they have to to keep customers happy. Some of the reasons (not all of course are) Van and Roast because if he didn't he would likely not sell a machine again on the forum. BB, because they have a reputation to maintain and a 2 year warranty to support, plus commercial links. Lakeland have a legally binding guarantee, John Lewis will always work well within the law. Instead people go and buy from cheapo Italia in Italy etc.. and sure they save a few bob, but when the problems start, you can be in a world of pain. Now I don't want to mention a specific retailer in a negative sense, even if I may have had dealings with them a LONG time ago and actually been to their premises. However, if your seeing more negative comments than make you feel comfortable, it doesn't really matter.....go somewhere else, there is plenty of choice. You might spend a little more, but then I guess if your Silvia had cost a little more, but you had a retailer who immediately sorted it out for you....then you wouldn't mind.

I hate to break it to people, but ANY espresso machine, no matter how much you pay can go wrong within weeks or months. The nature of their construction and operation make this a lot more likely than many other consumer products. The warranties are usually bought out warranties, which mean it's up to the retailers to sort it and and take the hit if necessary. Even where the warranty is directly supported by the company, it's often easier to let your retailer sort it out with them for you, AFTER, they have sorted you out.

There are many so called "box shifters in the market"...it's OK to buy from them if that's what you want and realise the service you will be getting, but at least make sure they are prepared to take the hit with no arguments and no hassle for you. You are the one spending 100s or 1000s of pounds, they should be the ones taking the risk...not you. If after sales, spares, goodwill etc.. means anything and you want quality UK retailers to be around for you when you need them.....then support them


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## The Systemic Kid

As far as I am aware, there is only one UK stockist for the Silvia and forum feedback for this seller seems to be mixed. So, if you want to buy a Silvia you don't have much choice vis a vis UK stockists. Failing this, you are dependent on box shifters such as Cafe Italia which offer very attractive prices but after sales support can be an issue as a recent Silvia thread highlighted. To be fair to Cafe Italia, forum member's issue was ultimately resolved but took some time.


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## DavecUK

The Systemic Kid said:


> As far as I am aware, there is only one UK stockist for the Silvia and forum feedback for this seller seems to be mixed. So, if you want to buy a Silvia you don't have much choice vis a vis UK stockists. Failing this, you are dependent on box shifters such as Cafe Italia which offer very attractive prices but after sales support can be an issue as a recent Silvia thread highlighted. To be fair to Cafe Italia, forum member's issue was ultimately resolved but took some time.


Then perhaps UK consumers need to send a message to the manufacturer, by not buying the Silvia until the manufacturer gets a decent retail operation in the UK. If that means leaning on the only incumbent retailer to up their game....then they should do so..


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## Hoffmonkey

Bella Barista stock the Silvia now too...


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## The Systemic Kid

Good to hear - see BB's price is same as Cafe Italia - so no need to take a risk.


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## DavecUK

The Systemic Kid said:


> Good to hear - see BB's price is same as Cafe Italia - so no need to take a risk.


Well there you go, a decent retailer stocking the Silvia, I didn't even know they stocked it. It does seem a "no brainer", if you are in the UK and want a Silvia....especially as it's at the same price as the others!


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## Edlockwood

Thank you for that, that's me well and truly told. I have never been shafted like this before and it doesn't feel great

I have learned my lesson the hard way and I sincerely hope that people find this thread useful in the future. Just as a follow up, the machine came back to me today and the top plate has been forced into place and is now bent. I know that he will just say that it happened in transit so no point in going down that route. There was also a warning about not running the boiler dry after steaming in the paperwork to cover his back for any further comeback in the future. A seasoned veteran

Its warming up and I'm just waiting for the inevitable.


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## DavecUK

Edlockwood said:


> Its warming up and I'm just waiting for the inevitable.


click....darkness!


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## Wando64

Edlockwood said:


> Its warming up and I'm just waiting for the inevitable.


Don't keep us holding our collective breath.

They sent it back after testing (allegedly) and saying nothing is wrong. Well... Did it trip the RCD again?


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## Edlockwood

No !!!!







Which is both a relief and slightly irritating. I am crossing my fingers and am expecting it to start when I've used it a few times and moisture levels may have built up inside.

i sincerely hope that I'm wrong and that they are right but I have a feeling that it will do it again and that I will have to have it repaired myself.

thanks for all your help


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## The Systemic Kid

Edlockwood said:


> ...... but I have a feeling that it will do it again and that I will have to have it repaired myself.
> 
> thanks for all your help


Really hope not - you've had enough hassle.


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## Wando64

Edlockwood said:


> No !!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which is both a relief and slightly irritating. I am crossing my fingers and am expecting it to start when I've used it a few times and moisture levels may have built up inside.


Whatever it turns out to be I can now sympathise with the company you sent it to for repairs.

Clearly not a straight forward issue.

EDIT: I would pay some attention to which other appliances you have on when it happens. It only takes a spike to trip the RCD.


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## Eyedee

The optimist I sometimes am, would suggest that there was an obvious fault, they fixed it but chose not to inform you for whatever reason.

Good luck with it.

Ian


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## CamV6

A couple of years ago I posted up a silvia that was for sale very very cheap on gumtree with exactly this problem and one of the regulars here bought it, found and fixed the problem easily and sold it on. If you can find that thread and whoever bought it, maybe they could tell you what the issue and the fix was?

Bad customer service attitude from myespresso by the sound of things also I might add


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## Edlockwood

I've just found the thread. Thanks Cam

Do any you good people with technical knowledge live around the Bournemouth area ? I'd love to get this sorted and am quite clearly not going to get any help from the midlands.


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## majnu

Seems to be the heating element:

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?4847-Rancilio-Silvia-tripping-mains&highlight=silvia+tripping+fuse

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?11073-Rancilio-Silvia-boiler-element-repair-(Tripping-RCD-GFI)

There seems to be a variation depending on date of production on the boiler heater element.

If it's under warranty and is still tripping your fuse then you could always do a "not fit for purpose" claim with your credit card company.

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/consumer-rights-refunds-exchange


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## The Systemic Kid

The latest Silvia variant - V4 has a steel replaceable heating element as opposed to a welded in copper one. Latter requires boiler/heating element replaced together unless you have access to a jig and other tools as per the thread above. Believe V4 came out in January 2014. Sounds like Ed's is old stock V3 sadly.


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## glevum

Nothing to do with a Silvia, but whenever i put the oven on it tripped the box. After a look it was the element ( it was in a right state) though it was 14 years old and on every day.


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## urbanbumpkin

Is it worth trying it on a different wall socket that's on a completely different circuit? (To rule out the houses electrics.


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## El carajillo

Intermittent faults are always the worst / most difficult to find / diagnose. Can you run the machine open to see if anything is leaking / spraying steam OR just weeping then changing to steam as the machine is hot ?


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## Edlockwood

It might well come to that.

So far its done exactly what it was supposed to. So, its either an intermittent fault, or my electrics have an intermittent fault.

Not sure which I prefer the sound of.

I'll keep you posted


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## Daren

Are you friendly with your neighbours? You could try it in their house to see if it trips their electrics. That should help you decipher where the problem is


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## Wando64

Edlockwood said:


> I've just found the thread. Thanks Cam
> 
> Do any you good people with technical knowledge live around the Bournemouth area ? I'd love to get this sorted and am quite clearly not going to get any help from the midlands.


At a risk of being unpopular I have to take issue with this reply.

You are currently using the machine and to your admission it is now working fine.

What are the people "from the midlands" exactly supposed to do if the machine doesn't shows any fault?


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## grumpydaddy

Lets go back a step or two.

The machine got a clean bill of health from "the midlands" so you would like to think that they tested it electrically rather than just ran it. however it sounds to me like there are two stages to the heating element, the second of which is turned on during the steaming phase. There is the possibility too of a solenoid problem.... maybe. A normal portable appliance test would miss both of these stages of usage unless you were to specifically test for them

It seems that it works OK some times and not others

Depending on when the electrics were installed in your house you have one or possibly two RCD's

An RCD measures and reacts to the TOTAL leakage current of *everything* connected to it.... This is most likely everything except the lighting and possibly any alarm or freezer circuits again depending on who installed it and when.

From previous experience I would say that certain items in use in your house are more likely than others to create issues such as these... Things with motors, heating elements etc.

Any single item with low insulation resistance in running may not be enough to trip the rcd however two or more items with such issues may combine to create the conditions that you are experiencing.

Given that we know you can replicate the issue at a certain stage of your coffee making Top of my list for combinations to try would be fridge/freezers, central heating pumps, electric ovens and hobs even electric irons. For the test turn everything else off.

For the machine itself ...Take a look for a local shop that offers PAT testing service take it to them (cheaper) but be very clear that it also needs testing when switched to the steaming phase of its use and you want to see the insulation resistance numbers for both normal and steaming. anything less than 2 Mohms should fail.

Kinda sounds complicated but given you have no test equipment it is just a relatively straightforward if long winded way to get to the bottom of this


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## barrykensett

I had the same problem, heated up OK but when putting the steam switch on it blew the fuse in the plug. Testing with meter shows leakage to earth. I am waiting for posty to bring me a new boiler and I note that the latest ones have a replaceable element whereas mine is welded in. Should be cheaper if it goes again.

Noting that I should not switch on without water in the boiler I note that I have no way of starting the pump without the heater also coming on so there is the possibility that briefly the element could be uncovered. I trust it cannot get hot enough to cause damage before the water arrives in the boiler.


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## bronc

You can unplug the boiler from the front panel or the cables that run to the boiler. Just be careful if you're doing it! However, I don't think you'll need to do this. The boiler is around 300ml and will fill up before the heating element gets really hot.


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## Thecatlinux

Does it trip as soon as you flick the steam switch ?

or does it do it when you flick the steam switch when everything is hot ?


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## Edlockwood

It's done it when it's hot but is currently working so I am stumped.

it might not even be the problem but there was a pattern of it tripping while I waited for the steam to hear up


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