# Pulling my first shots - help!



## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Bought a Gaggia Classic and Mazzer SJ from the forum a couple of week ago.

Since then I've been cleaning and modding both. SJ is now single dose with sweep clean mods and I've bought a brass group head, IMS shower screen, the correct thickness Cafelet silicon seal and a 18g VST basket for the Classic.

Today I have been running through descaler and Puly caff in the Classic ready for the first brew.

I've got some fresh beans from a local roaster a few days ago, put 20 gms in the SJ and then filled the 18g VST but the basket wasn't filled to the top. Tapped it level and gave it a reasonable tamp but I couldn't get the PF to locate in the group head even though the basket wasn't full. In the end I had to take off about 2mm of grounds and re-tamped and then the PF would lock in the head.

What's going wrong?

Might try the standard Classic parts to see if that makes any difference.

When I did try the brew the grind was far too coarse as the 2oz glass filled in about 12 secs. But I also noticed that when I switched the brew switch off I got a surge of water out of the overflow pipe into the drip tray. That shouldn't happen should it?

All advice gratefully received.

Richard


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

You need some £5 scales off ebay. They're often marketed as jewellery scales, or drug scales (well maybe not that exact word but you get what I mean).

Then weigh 18g into the Mazzer, weigh output from Mazzer (hopefully 18g, adjust input if not), weigh output from Gaggia and aim for a 2:1 ratio (so 36g) in roughly 30 seconds. Keep adjusting the grind until you get this. When you achieve it you can start playing around with ratios and dose weights.

Honestly it is so much easier to dial in with scales, and to try and figure out what's going on and where its going wrong!


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Just to add IMHO it isn't good to have too much or too little in the basket as you end up with hardly any headspace or too much, stick to the baskets stated dose for now and play around with it when you have that nailed.

Also do you have a roast date on the espresso? It sounds like it could be a bit too fresh, which can cause a bit of volatility when you try and dial in. For me around 10 days of resting in the bag is the ideal point to open it, it varies a lot depending on who you ask and roast profile. Worth asking the roaster next time you visit them how long they recommend.

Hope that all helps a bit.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I think you've just put too much coffee in the basket. It's not supposed to fill it. E.g. an 18g VST is designed to take 17-19g comfortably with headroom. It's not the case that an 18g basket full to the top will contain 18g. More likely to be 25g if one were to fill it right up! (I know you haven't filled it right to the brim but obviously it was still too much). That is why your PF wouldn't lock in until you took some out. How did you measure that the amount you put in was 18g?

The metal decompression pipe on the Classic is supposed to let excess pressure/water out into the drip tray when the 3 way solenoid switches to 'exhaust' after you switch off the pump. After the shot is finished, all remaining pressure is 'excess' - This helps produce a drier spent puck, but more importantly it protects you from a 'portafilter sneeze' where you get a face full of hot coffee grounds when you unlock! If you have choked the machine on a massive dose or too tight a grind, this will be even more pronounced, but it always happens to some extent. Sounds like your machine is perfectly normal.

As Aaron said, just pick up a cheap set of jewellery scales (1kg/0.1g is fine). Then you can dial in properly and all should be well.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

aaronb said:


> You need some £5 scales off ebay. They're often marketed as jewellery scales, or drug scales (well maybe not that exact word but you get what I mean).


Yeah I think the word you're looking for is 'herb' or 'spice'. Every time I buy a set of these, I get "Customers who viewed this item also viewed" and then they show you 'herb mills', king size Rizla, tiny ziplok bags and lighters with picturesof Bob Marley on. Just the kind of digital signature I wanted - not!


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Hi Guys,

Yeah, got a set of 0.1g scales. I started by putting 20gms of beans into the SJ hopper and then ground it into a small saucer and swept clean the doser and chute, so I would have expected that I got over 19gms out. I then spooned this into the PF with the 18g VST basket but didn't re-weigh at this stage. Having watched various Youtube vids it appears that filling the basket and then levelling before tamping is the norm.

I've now put the standard Gaggia Classic parts back in and will repeat the process again using the Gaggia 14gm basket.

Out of interest the brass shower head measures about 0.3mm thicker than the original Gaggia aluminium one.

I'll give it another try and let you know how I get on.

Richard


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

RichD1 said:


> it appears that filling the basket and then levelling before tamping is the norm.


Maybe in 1989


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Ah good stuff. I don't think the brass dispersion plate will cause any problems. That slight extra thickness isn't much and in any case shouldn't be in contact with the puck (until after the shot where the wet grounds have swelled). I think you just need to figure out exactly how much grounds work ok in whichever basket you choose. VST ones can be a bit more finicky with regard to dose and prep.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

RichD1 said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Yeah, got a set of 0.1g scales. I started by putting 20gms of beans into the SJ hopper and then ground it into a small saucer and swept clean the doser and chute, so I would have expected that I got over 19gms out. I then spooned this into the PF with the 18g VST basket but didn't re-weigh at this stage. Having watched various Youtube vids it appears that filling the basket and then levelling before tamping is the norm.
> 
> ...


What is 'normal' on youtube vids is pretty far from ideal.

Weigh your coffee after it is ground. You can test headroom by tamping your coffee, placing a 1p coin on the tamped bed then putting the PF into the machine, then remove it and have a look at the penny. If it has squished into the puck you have too much coffee in there regardless of the weight, ideally it would have just made a very slight indentation in the top of the puck, but not fractured it in any way.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

If you dose straight into the basket you can always weigh the entire basket (tare the scales with the empty basket first).

Id stick with the decent screen and the VST, and learn that way rather than faff about with the others and then have to start again when you switch back.


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

please,

just stop trying to put 20gs into the 18g VST


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## shaunclarke (Nov 30, 2011)

hotmetal said:


> Yeah I think the word you're looking for is 'herb' or 'spice'. Every time I buy a set of these, I get "Customers who viewed this item also viewed" and then they show you 'herb mills', king size Rizla, tiny ziplok bags and lighters with picturesof Bob Marley on. Just the kind of digital signature I wanted - not!


LOL...same here...king size rizlas and little poly bags. We are probably on some sort of list that Ebay have sold to the drug authorities!!!


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Right, did put all the Gaggia standard parts back in, tightened up the grind and measured 14gms into the basket.

It took 10 secs to start appearing and then completed 2oz in about 45 secs, so far too tight.

Did another with a slight slackening of the grind, repeated the dose and 2oz took about 30 secs and it tasted pretty good, so getting closer. What I did notice was that the brew was nearly all crema and then gradually turned to liquid when in the shot glass. Is this normal?

Where should I go next?

Richard


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Depends on the coffee, some are particularly 'gassy' especially if they are fresh.

Where do you want to go next, you seem to have solved your problem no?


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

OK, going to fit all the new items now and then use your 1p trick and work out how much I can get in a 18g VST and still get it to lock into the group head.

This a pic of the last shot I did and the crema has gradually setttled over a couple of minutes. You can see where originally it filled the glass.

Richard


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Weigh the espresso drink!

fluid oz is meaningless.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

And put 18g in the 18g VST basket.


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## NateChat (Aug 24, 2015)

I've found that a brew ratio is the best way to go. Get your recipe dialled in and then work on consistency. I also use the vst basket and work off 17g of coffee with 34g of coffee in the cup. Comes out at around the 28 second mark as well, sometimes longer as long as it doesn't gush out I'm happy.


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

Did anyone say put 18g in 18g basket and weigh output?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Do some reading ...

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22879-Beginners-Reading-Weighing-Espresso-Brew-Ratios


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## greymda (Oct 6, 2016)

i am more into the 1:1.55 ratio, so for 18g in it would be 28g out. try to get those in ~25 seconds.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Its a nice set up for a beginer. Weigh 18g in, weigh out. Shot glasses look cool but scales are your friend.

Don't get too hung up on time although the 25-40 sec window is a good starting point.

Try an 18g in =>35g out shot., see what it tastes like then try s 18g=> 28g whilst keeping everything else the same.

See which tastes best to you.

Just out of interest where are you getting your beans from?


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

@urbanbumpkin

I get my beans from http://www.dorsetcoffee.co.uk which is only a couple of miles from me.

Richard


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

RichD1 said:


> @urbanbumpkin
> 
> I get my beans from http://www.dorsetcoffee.co.uk which is only a couple of miles from me.
> 
> Richard


Are they roasting to order for you? No mention on their website.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

RichD1 said:


> @urbanbumpkin
> 
> I get my beans from http://www.dorsetcoffee.co.uk which is only a couple of miles from me.
> 
> Richard


Cheers Richard they look on the darker side which can suit lower brew ratios but I'd try 18g=>36g first then 28g and see which you prefer.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

They look more on the commodity side, use them to get going but I would highly recommend also trying some of the other roasters selling speciality coffee that get mentioned on the beans subforum and seeing what you like best.


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Right Guys, got it now, brew by weight!!

The only problem is I can't get my scales and the shot glass under the PF on the Classic. Will have to remove drip tray and hopefully get no spills or blasts from the overflow.

@aaronb I would like to support my local roaster if at all possible, he has about 30 different types he can supply and I get the benefit of his advice if we don't like a particular bean.

From these specialist suppliers who would you recommend and what would you suggest as a good starting point?

Richard


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

@RichD1 as a word of warning , i would think hard about putting any favoured beans ( as per that website you linked ) in your grinder . You will be along time getting that gunk of the burrs

Are you using a mug or a cup ? How big is it ( size or volume )


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

I have a cup that won't fit under my naked PF (it has a bendy bit)

I just shove the microfibre cloth I use around/under the overflow pipe when I take the drip tray out.


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

@Mrboots2u Do you mean flavoured beans?

Ahh, just checked his website and I've not used any of the flavoured beans. Used Colombian Medellin Supremo and Kenya Peaberry from his Origin Arabicas range and Dorset No.1 from his Blended range. These were recommended as good starting points to experiment with.

I'm using the shot glass in the pic I posted previously showing the brew and crema. It is a 2oz glass which I bought from Espresso Solutions. I have got some smaller 1oz shot glasses so I could use those and think they would sit on the scales with the drip tray still in place.


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

RichD1 said:


> I get my beans from www.dorsetcoffee.co.uk which is only a couple of miles from me.
> 
> Richard





aaronb said:


> They look more on the commodity side, use them to get going but I would highly recommend also trying some of the other roasters selling speciality coffee that get mentioned on the beans subforum and seeing what you like best.


They could use a proof reader. I cant help myself,, ive pointed out the mistakes and await my free coffee

I thought I'd better start writing this blog ( well I've only just worked it out,) First *off *all I would like to thank all of our customers,

I would also like to announce, The Dorset No1 Blend (our most popular coffee ) won a Great Taste Gold Star Award, it was described as a 'Solid Espresso' and 'Had a Thick *Creama*',

basically it can tell the difference between *an* smartphone, tablet and a desktop. I know it's not (needs an A here) new thing,

we have (needs an A here) new range of gift baskets

this has been (needs an A here)long time in coming

I bet you were more than *awere*



*
* I bet you were more than awere (its aware)

her freind is the same age of my Sister in Law (should be AS, not of) and friend is spelt friend, not freind

Katie's Freind is 32 (friend, not freind)

to support thier friends. (thats how you spell friends, but you go and spell their wrongly)

her freind and the support (friend again)

Good Luck Katie and Good Luck to your freind,(friend again)


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

RichD1 said:


> Right Guys, got it now, brew by weight!!
> 
> The only problem is I can't get my scales and the shot glass under the PF on the Classic. Will have to remove drip tray and hopefully get no spills or blasts from the overflow.
> 
> ...


Can you ditch the shot glass and use a wider cup?

Whilst I appreciate the sentiment most cities will have a commodity coffee roaster who has existed for many years. Switching to speciality will make a huge improvement IMHO.

Rave seems to be a forum favourite with low prices you could check out. I'd recommend looking at Workshop, Caravan, Origin, Sundlaug to name just a few to get you started.

Maybe there is a speciality roaster local to you, not sure off the top of my head. Origin and Extract are the closest ones I can think of (which aren't really that close).


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## zoglet (Jun 1, 2010)

Hi Rich

I have a gaggia classic and pimped almost exactly the same as you, Brass Shower head, IMS screen.

To fill and level to the brim pre-tamping would certainly result in an overfull for me, such that the PF would not engage in the group head. A good visual detection is that if you see an imprint of the grouphead screw in the puck, it's too full. As the guys here say, weighing will work better for you. Once you have the technique down, you can measure by eye. On lazier days I now dry off the preheated PF with a kitchen towel and then use this as the measure, scooping from the coffee beans direct into the PF, gauging visually (usually around 4-5mm below the top lip, there is an indented ring inside the PF, I work to imagine filling post-tamp to BELOW this line as this is roughly where the group head will reach to) the amount I drop into the grinder. My bottomless PF holds far more than what some consider to be the golden '14g' number, in fact I have tried to use this but the puck will almost always be too thin. I fill to around 18g and then extract 2:1 based on how much I put in, or work to the 25-30 second rule, looking at the bottom of the PF to check that the distribution and tamp was correct. I add the caveat that I am also VERY new to this, learning from advice here, but I reply as I have a similar setup and experiences to you.


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## zoglet (Jun 1, 2010)

Haha Ratty, why am I not surprised that grammar nazis make the best espresso XD


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## zoglet (Jun 1, 2010)

Currently re-editing to five images only. sorry. How the hell do I post as portrait? Had this problem before.

I wanted to send you a slideshow of the above to show how I judge a maximum extraction but it went wrong and I would still like to do so, so you can see how and why. I hope that is ok with the guys on here. In my mind it shows why measuring is so important.

1) Measuring a full PF 'by eye' to the line (you can see at the back of the PF). 21.4 grams of beans, weighing post grind, 21 grams. More than I usually would put in (I work to 18g). After reading elsewhere about importance of even distribution to promote consistent extraction, I use little roasting skewers to whisk out the clumps and make a more even mix.









2) PF filled pre-tamp









3) And post-tamp









4) I could tell something was wrong with the extraction. It took way too long to start and then did not come out nice and evenly, eventually taking 45 seconds to complete. Opening up the PF post extraction you can see the imprint of the shower head in the puck, suggesting it was over-filled.









5) Tapping out puck, for the first time in ages, it didn't come out complete, giving a clue that something wasn't quite right.









I hope the rest of you don't mind the step by step 'how NOT to' guide but I think it's useful to show how even a slight change mess up everything. I reckon I could have got away with even 20g of beans, but I would then still need to adjust everything else accordingly. 18g grind of beans to 36g shot in 25-30 seconds is what I was 'dialling in' to when I started following advice here. Working strictly to that allows me to hone my tamping (and other) skills. When I'm not in the mood and I go visual, 18g of unground beans in the PF will, for me, fill TO THE LINE of the PF without any beans going above that level.


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## zoglet (Jun 1, 2010)

This is spot on 18g unground beans in my edesia espress bottomless PF. The 'visual' difference between this and the one above is there but not massive. Here, there isn't a single bean above that indentation level in the PF. Even a few beans either way will change the weight by a fair amount and every grinder will potentially retain a percentage (My Mignon seems to hold back around 0.5g) so the only way to guarantee consistency in the beginning is to weigh 'post grind' exactly what is going into the PF.


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