# Dalian Amazon Experiences



## NAJB

Just wondering whether we could have a thread where owners/users of the little Damian Amazon can post experiences of their roasts.

You will have noted that the Amazon is a new toy for me, although I have lots of experience of roasting at-home, but based on machines with fewer manual inputs (HotTop for about 8 years followed by a Gene Cafe for the last 3, or is it 4).

The Amazon has been a bit of an eye-opener and so far I have completed 4 roasts, the firs three with a Papua New Guinea bean and the fourth with a Brazil (Vale do Sol) bean.

After those 4 roasts I sat sown and read the more detailed DaveC manual to try and determine why I was seeing what I was seeing (pretty short roast times and 'odd' temperatire measurements). Subjective tests of the effects of the 2 dampers (I don't have access to an air flow meter) suggest that I get fill fan flow with either one of the 2 dampers open, ie opening the second whilst the first is open has negligible effect on air flow. Closing both results in a vastly reduced flow. To me this means that I have either (a) a fairly leak tight machine where the air flow is dominated by the inlet resistance (high) (b) the ducting is limiting the airflow, ie the ducting resistance is high. I suppose I should emove the ducting to find out which it is, but that will blow chaff everywhere (and yes the tray is clear!).

Anyway onto the results of the roasts (temperature/times are quoted as time bean (air)

PNG 1; 0 190 (190), 2 147 (167), 4 151 (153) [sD open to 1cm], 6 164 (170), 8 176 (179), 10 186 (191), 11 192 (198)

First crack at 9:15, beans dumped at just under 12, a little late, but this rot was bound for the rubbish bin as per the notes supplied with the machine.

I then allowed the machine to cool completely before undertaking some back-to-back roasts

PNG 2; 0 180 (196), 2 147 (167), 4 151 (153) [sD open to 1cm], 6 163 (167), 8 173 (177) 10 184 (191), 11 187 (195)

First crack at 9;50, dumped at 11;50; a little over-roasted (for me)

PNG 3; 0 196 (218), 2 159 (178), 4 162 (164) [sD open to 1cm], 6 172 (178), 8 184 (189) [sD open to 2cm], 10 194 (204), 11 198 (210)

First crack at 9;40, dumped at 11;10; better looking roast

BVdS; 0 183 (210), 2 163 (186), 4 170 (172) [sD open to 1cm], 6 180 (180), 8 192 (197) [sD open to 2cm at 7m], 9 195 (200)

First crack at 8;30, dumped at 10;10; better looking roast

The earlier crack for the BVdS was no unexpected based on my roasts on the GC, but each bean was cracking around 4m earlier than the GC!

I do not see air temperatures getting anywhere close to the heater trip setpoint.


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## RDC8

This is a useful suggestion @NAJB. I too have come from a simpler roasting environment and am on a learning curve with managing temperature through the airflow dampers. Started with a Brazil Santos. Quite disapointed with the first few attempts - but getting better results yesterday. One problem has been scorch marks on some of the beans - not sure what I have been doing wrong to get this happening. However - also put through a roast of Colombian; with a very different result. The colombian was much more evenly roasted and were noticeably larger than the Santos. So not sure if the scorching is down to the type of bean being used.

Compared to your experience, I am using a much slower ROR - only about 3 degrees per minute. First crack is coming at much lower temperatures (The lower temps are also puzzling me as to why the beans might be scorching??)

Anyway; results from yesterday. I record things slightly different - I dont worry about the BT for the first four minutes. I also only record the BT, not the ET

Santos - SD=2cm CA = 4cm: 0 190, 4 143, 5 146 (open SD to 6cm @ 5:40), 6 150, (open SD to 7cm @ 6:50), 7 154, 8 157, 9 161 (open SD to 8cm @ 9:30), 10 165, 11 170 (killed heat at 11:00 to slow ROR) 1st crack 11:15, restarted heat @ 11:45), 12 174 (Kill heat @ 12:12), Dumped @ 12:55. 1kg in, 855gm out.

Colombian - SD = 1cm CA = 2cm: 0 190, 4 142 (open SD to 3cm), 5 154, 6 147 (open SD to 4cm @ 6:45), 7 150, 8 152, 9 155, 10 157, 11 159, 12 161, 13 163, 14 167 (first crack @ 14:40), 15 169 (open SD to 5cm @ 15:30), 16 171, Dumped at 16:45. 1kg in, 855gm out.

For both roasts the temp bottomed out at 138 after dropping in the beans - again a much lower temp than you are experiencing.

Any thoughts/suggestions/input from more experiences roasters much appreciated.


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## CampervanCoffeeCo

I've had the roaster for a week now, did a huge roast session on Saturday, controlling ROR is ok, but 1c is coming much earlier than anticipated.

Using various beans and experimenting with airflow 1st crack is still happening at 165-170ish and the coffees tasting a little under developed. I'm heating the drum up to 160-170 dropping the beans, temp drops to 125-130 ish and 1c starts at 165-170 I was expecting this to happen at about 185-190, I've opened airflow up 12.5-25% but this just extends roast time and not temperature of 1C.

Any suggestions please?


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## Stevebee

The temperature of the beans at first crack, if you could get a tiny probe inside the bean, would be in the region of 195c on average. The temperature you record at 1c is more a function of your probe placement, so if this happens at 165-170 as long as its consistent that is the main thing. It probably means that your dropping the beans in between 190-195 by extrapolating your 1c temp difference - which shouldn't cause scorching. The key points are the time of 1c and the time from this to the drop time (development). As long as the ror is declining during the roast and development time is 20%-25% you should get some great tasting roasts. Dave C, the guru on this roaster, will be able to let you know how to slow the time taken to 1c if this is what you want to do, without doing the power mod, just with the dampers.


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## DavecUK

Like I said in the review, this roaster can roast really fast, even though the heating element are nominal 2.5Kw, no lack of power.

I can't give a roasting less on on line, but I can do 2 things: Some advice on critical information to keep....because I don't see enough to help me advise you.


You need to buy the energy monitor I recommended or one that is as accurate (many are not). Then understand the power draw of your roaster for any resting voltage, plus the voltage drop under load. Without this it's not easy to help.

You need to always note the 1st crack temp

Average rate of rise

charge temp and what it bottoms out to before it starts rising, also how long that takes.

How long are you warming up for

what are your controller settings

what does the big analogue gauge say


2. I can run a session to show you how I am using the roaster, if enough people are interested....but I will charge to ensure maximum attention is paid.

Dave


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## DavecUK

Just as an addition, winter and summer can be different voltage can vary, so you need to modify a little what's in my guide for your roaster, voltage venting and time of year etc.. Some golden rules below to help you.

When you turn the roaster on always check the temperatures for bean mass (left) and environmental temp within the drum housing (right), pretty much show the actual temperature where the roaster is situated. e,g, Today mine might have both shown 20C. you might see a 1C variance. if it doesn't show the actual temp, then something could be wrong

Note the temp when 1st comes on your roaster if it's a fast time, try lowering the controller temp to slow down first. The ideal temp for the left hand controller (bean mass) as the probe is quite accurate is at or just below the ideal temp/time for 1st. For my roaster that's around 192.

There is sufficient heat within the roaster+ the more exothermic reaction of 1st to take you right through to second once the heating elements cut off. Mine will cut off at 192 and 1st and the temp will still continue to slowly rise. They don't usually come on again until I have dumped the roast.

Always start roasting once the roaster fully warms up, this will be around 22 minutes in summer and 26 minutes in winter. Ensure the max setting on the bean mass probe is hit, possibly more than once.

When roasting don't try and put the beans in at a specially low temp, this is only a 1kg roaster with a perforated drum hence 40% less drum contact area. you can put the beans in at the temperature the left hand controller switches off. When back to back roasting start a new roast immediately after dumping the roast and closing the hatch. Don't open hatch too wide so you don't loose too much heat. No wait no cooldown, get those beans straight in.

They can all be a tiny bit different. Also especially @NAJB take notice.

CA = Fully open and *SD closed only for first 2 mins of roast (or shorter if that works for you, not longer)*, then open to 2 or even 3cm depending on your roaster. it also depends on the power of your heating element some can vary (up to 10%) from 2450 to 2700W. this means you might need more air. if your seeing rises that calculating forward means you will reach 1st sooner than you want, add more air with the smoke damper to slow it down. e.g if 1st is at 192 and your at 170 with 6C per min rise (count rise for 20s to see what it will be for the minute). then in about 4 m your going to be at or close to 1st crack temp. If that's what you want great, if not slow it down. Also don't force first too quickly, try to get first at around 10-11 minutes, not 6-8 minutes. 7-8m roasts are for those people in the world roasting championships...not for coffee you can drink.

Also set your controller to around 192, that's what I find good now....I usually use around 191 to 193 depending on the bean and less for Monsooned Malabar.

================================================

@RDC8 I don't know why your roasts are hitting 1st at such low temperatures. I'm wondering if they have wired the probes to the wrong controllers. The Bean Mass probe (left hand controller) should almost always show a lower temperature than the other probe during the roast. *Post what the right hand controller was showing!*



*
When viewing the roaster from the front the K type thermocouple should be the probe on the RIGHT side of the drum spindle and terminate in a connector for a thermometer that takes those probes. The one on the LEFT hand side of the drum spindle is the PT100 probe and should be connected to the left hand controller.*

*
*

if they are connected the wrong way round on your controllers and the right hand controller is showing 190 ish and the left 170 ish while you have first crack it's not a huge problem, just reverse the air temp roaster temp signs and program the controller appropriately.

you could also have a sanity check and tell me what the analogue controller is saying as well as the K type thermocouple (both these tend to read lower than the bean mass probe).

=======================================

The PT100 bean mass sensors in the Dalian are really accurate and the main one that should guide the roast...one that's showing 170 may be placed incorrectly (this is hard to do in manufacture), but is more likely to be faulty, or perhaps have some bad wiring into the left hand controller..If you have a bad sensor BB would send you a replacement.

===========================

Overall though guys more concise and better information required, don't assume I know which controller your looking at, your power draw, voltage etc.. etc...


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## CampervanCoffeeCo

Hi Dave

I bought the monitor as recommended, I also use the SCAE profile log to trace my roasting results.

I just roasted a 500g batch - dropped at 190

turning point at 140

ROR initially 10 degrees per minute but slowed

1c at 5 minutes at 166

ended roast at 6.30 (20% ish of roast time)

The roasters draws 2555w when roasting

1st crack temp has been between 160 -170.

ROR starts at 10 degrees C per minute to start and reduces, I understand how to control that with airflow

Warming up for 25 minutes until desired drop temperature is reached

Control settings - both vents closed. Do I need chaff vent on whilst warming up machine?

Where are you based, a roasting session and chat would be great.

M


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## NAJB

Many thanks DaveC for your input. I had thought that I should open the S Damper more in order to control dT/dt. It appears that my roasts are cracking a little earlier than you would prefer to see so your suggestion of opening the S Damper is helpful.

I will also adjust the trip setting on the LH controller (currently set at 195 by BB). And I await my power meter.

DaveC, if you are serious about organising a lesson I would be very interested.


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## DavecUK

CampervanCoffeeCo said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> I bought the monitor as recommended, I also use the SCAE profile log to trace my roasting results.
> 
> I just roasted a 500g batch - dropped at 190
> 
> turning point at 140
> 
> Control settings - both vents closed. Do I need chaff vent on whilst warming up machine?
> 
> Where are you based, a roasting session and chat would be great.
> 
> M


2550W is fine for the heating power (,ine only draws 2450W). If your turning point shown is 140 on the left controller, then that's around 6C more than mine, but even that discrepancy doesn't explain why your getting 1st at 160-170, unless you are using the K type thermocouple....because it sounds more the the temperatures that probe would show as it's only partially in the bean mass as it falls near the Tryer.

When warming up the machine I run with the CA fully open and smoke damper closed until 8-10 minutes have elapsed then open to 2CM. *The fact you are even asking this question worries me, because key information about how to warm up and how to roast are in the Quick start Guide ver 1.4 that should have come the roaster**. For obvious reasons I didn't replicate all this in the user guide again.*



*
The manuals you should all have are:*



*
1. Unpacking and installation guide (5 pages)*



*
2. Quick Start Guide (10 pages)*



*
3. User Guide (42 pages) - this is a more advanced guide that doesn't cover the basic roasting process, but talks about concepts, coffees, running a roastery etc..It does not cover what's in the QS guide which actually tells you how to roast in the Dalian!*





*
*I'm based in Surrey a few miles from Weybridge Station (a 30m train ride from London Waterloo). I will be happy to run a session for both of you, but it would be cheaper if there was a 3rd person who was interested. It would probably require a 4-6 hour session.


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## DavecUK

Update, just checked witth BB and I think you guys may not have all the guides, I have asked them to send them to you (up to date ones as well). If you still want a session after you read those....happy to do it.


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## CampervanCoffeeCo

Hi Dave

Yes, I don't have the quick start guide. I'll also contact BB

I just roasted a full kg and 1c was nearer 185-190. As you mentioned I don't think the bean mass was getting to the thermocouple.

Many thanks for help so far, I'm slowly ironing out the problems.

M


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## RDC8

Interesting - I dont seem to have the quick start guide either. Will contact BB to get one sent out.

Cheers


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## DavecUK

CampervanCoffeeCo said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> Yes, I don't have the quick start guide. I'll also contact BB
> 
> I just roasted a full kg and 1c was nearer 185-190. As you mentioned I don't think the bean mass was getting to the thermocouple.
> 
> Many thanks for help so far, I'm slowly ironing out the problems.
> 
> M


*
Oh christ yeah, just looked at 1 of the posts and I see your roasting 500g, with that you will be seeing a drum env temp, sort of the same as the K type thermocouple sees and 1st would be more around 170 ish. As you say because the beans are not surrounding the probe*. I only ever tested 1 and 1.2Kg loads in it....I "think you might be able to roast 750g, but I'm not sure how accurate the bean mass temp would be. If it's Monsooned Malabar, you ould probably get away with 700g as the coffee is very light to start with and rather fills a roasting chamber quite easy. *So nothing wrong with your temp controller after all.*

this is a commercial grade roaster made for roasting a 1kg charge and will roast up to 1.2kg charge. That's how I designed things with the thermometry. Also the probe can't be placed lower as it would foul drum components, there just wasn't space without a complete redesign. If anyone wants to roast less, technique needs to be adjusted. 500g will definitely miss the bean mass probe, you will have to roast via environmental temperature and use much more care....as you are all finding out. *This roaster is designed to easily pump out Kg after Kg at a rate of 4kg per hour (back to back roasting), hour after hour after hour.*

beyond emptying the chaff tray every 8-12 roasts (you can do it whilst roasting) and vacuum under/top of the cooling tray every 100 kg it will do it's job for 1000s of kilos before requiring even the most basic maintenance or so. A normal hobbyist home user will probably NEVER need to do any maintenance....nothing., simply because it's 1000s of kg before basic maintenance would be required.

It's not a roaster that's ideal for 500g batches, that's not where it's roast quality shines because more mass means a better roast...always. It's a 1kg roaster (the best I've ever used), that knocks more expensive roasters right out of the park. A 1kg Toper which costs double, is not even half as good....I know because I had one. if you want to sit in front of a microchip filled roaster watching a computer screen this is not the roaster for you. if you want to produce some of the most; evenly roasted chaff free and great tasting beans you have ever had, whilst manually controlling the roast as required....then the Dalian is for you.

P.S. I even purchased a spare eliwelly controller and PT100 probe, probably one of the more complex electronic parts in the roaster, it was £28 and arrived within a week.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261081969245?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

In fact many parts can be sourced from other places e.g. main Power relay from RS components £6 or a superior relay with double the life for £9, and it's a simple push fit replacement!

It's a simple, but good commercial unit. I know there is the Bullet, but for £2500, unless space was an issue, or you like computer games, I can't imagine why someone wouldn't stump up the extra 750 for a Dalian they can leave to their kids.


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## johnealey

*My experience so far (just over a year, mine is from the 2nd batch)*

I generally roast in 1kg lots although have on occasion gone to 1.25kg (with losses gives me 4 x250g bags, why 1.25? just because it made no difference to 1.2







) with no discernable taste difference from same bean at 1kg or 1.25kg.

Only roasted Robusta once (1st roast) and then only for the throw away roast (and boy did it smoke the area out, never again)

Never gone lower than 850g (no malabars roasted yet) for the reasons above.

I tend to draw a lot more air as our voltage regularly tops 250, especially in the summer and can honestly say this roaster is far easier to control / understand (once you get the basics nailed) than the little gene it replaced. CA during roast usually around 3 with SD rising from 3 (closed 0-3min) at 3 minutes upwards and will close CA down if temp rising too fast such as just before 1C or after. Have on occasion turned the heat off after 1C but this is temp rise dependant

One day I'll get round to power controlling it but for the moment have enough control as is.

Maintenance so far has followed Dave's guide and bar one minor chaff dust smoulder which was dealt with very quickly has been a joy to use and tend to do 7-8 kilos at a time back to back in no more than 2 hours ( I am not your average consumer of coffee and roast share as well, was heading down a full time micro roasting route but had a job offer that was too good to turn down, so bubbling away in the background







)

I do leave mine to warm up at least 30 minutes and ideally 40 to include at least 2 cycles of the heat element switching in / out, the element drawing around 2800w in use. At end of roasting will leave roaster door open, green stopper out plus SD fully open (CA closed when finished cooling beans) until I see a minimum of 65c on the bean probe.

I keep records with a manual roast log as well as by inputting temps manually into Artisan every 20 to 30 seconds and will get round to buying a data logger with USB output if can figure out how to take the data direct from the PID's rather than use the spare K type probe (or maybe as well as)

All in all, happy bunny so far and no doubt still room for improvement especially in lighter roasts.

Hope of help

John


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## Coffeejon

DavecUK said:


> *
> It's a simple, but good commercial unit. I know there is the Bullet, but for £2500, unless space was an issue, or you like computer games, I can't imagine why someone wouldn't stump up the extra 750 for a Dalian they can leave to their kids.*


 

*
ho ho. While your buying voltage meters, i'm happily playing back 200g sample roasts in my bullet. Each to their own *


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## NAJB

I think some of us might be guilty of making the Amazon sound difficult. It isn't but does seem to require a degree of familiarisation and experiment. My purpose in starting this thread was to allow other users to share their experiences. There is little point in scoffing at us.

I followed DaveC's advice and increased the opening of the SD at an earlier time and it did produce a more acceptable first crack time in my latest (single) roast. I am still awaiting my power meter and want to put in better (less resistive) plumbing for the exhaust.

Details of that latest roast of BVdS

0 192(193) (SD at 0), 1 156(170),2 150(159) (SD at +2), 3 152(157), 4 156(160), 5 161(164), 6 166 (168) (SD at +3), 7 171(174), 8 176(180), 9 181 (186), 10 187(193)

1st crack at 9:20, heat off at 10:30 and beans dumped at 11:00.

Noticed a (very) small number of beans had minor scorch marks. Now waiting for the beans to be ready to start drinking.


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## DavecUK

NAJB said:


> I think some of us might be guilty of making the Amazon sound difficult. It isn't but does seem to require a degree of familiarisation and experiment. My purpose in starting this thread was to allow other users to share their experiences. There is little point in scoffing at us.
> 
> I followed DaveC's advice and increased the opening of the SD at an earlier time and it did produce a more acceptable first crack time in my latest (single) roast. I am still awaiting my power meter and want to put in better (less resistive) plumbing for the exhaust.
> 
> Details of that latest roast of BVdS
> 
> 0 192(193) (SD at 0), 1 156(170),2 150(159) (SD at +2), 3 152(157), 4 156(160), 5 161(164), 6 166 (168) (SD at +3), 7 171(174), 8 176(180), 9 181 (186), 10 187(193)
> 
> 1st crack at 9:20, heat off at 10:30 and beans dumped at 11:00.
> 
> Noticed a (very) small number of beans had minor scorch marks. Now waiting for the beans to be ready to start drinking.


Slow the roast down a touch more you are rushing into 1st crack which forces it to come early (or earlier than it should) assuming you are roasting a full kg. try to add another minute to the 1st crack time and then a little more air without stalling to give a little more time between 1st and dumping the roast.


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## NAJB

Thankyou again for your input. As I said that roast I posted was another experiment. I will use more air, but I do wonder whether I should look at the exhaust arrangements and get a smoother exhaust stack. I don't want to change too many variables at the same time, but if I can find my ideal first crack time/window I can always speed it up later.

This is fun, but it's a lot of coffee to get through. Perhaps I could persuade my wife to bake come coffee cake??????


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## RDC8

Looking at @NAJB comments on improving the exhaust system on his roaster got me wondering what effect the exhaust pipe has on the air-flow. I roast in a garden shed and the roaster is sitting quite a distance from the shed door (due to the location of the power socket). Therefore I have added an extra 2m of exhaust ducting to vent the smoke out the door. This was the quickest and most cost-effective solution. However - I have no idea if the extra length is having an effect on the airflow. Any thoughts or insights?


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## Coffeejon




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## DavecUK

RDC8 said:


> Looking at @NAJB comments on improving the exhaust system on his roaster got me wondering what effect the exhaust pipe has on the air-flow. I roast in a garden shed and the roaster is sitting quite a distance from the shed door (due to the location of the power socket). Therefore I have added an extra 2m of exhaust ducting to vent the smoke out the door. This was the quickest and most cost-effective solution. However - I have no idea if the extra length is having an effect on the airflow. Any thoughts or insights?


If you used ductng the same diameter as the existing vent tube from the fan...then yeah an extra 2m is a lot. |If you use wider ducting e.g. 5inch (120mm), then you might be OK. just have the end facing downwards so you do get wind blowing into the tube. The fan on the Dalian is quite powerful, but longer ducting will change things slightly. I use 5 inch ducting personally.....but only about 1.5m


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## NAJB

"ho ho..........."

And by the way it is "you're" ! Scoff all you want but at least use correct grammar


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## Stevebee

If we corrected all incorrect grammer on this forum there would be double the amount of posts - including my own!

I would loose patience very quickly


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## DavecUK

Stevebee said:


> If we corrected all incorrect grammer on this forum there would be double the amount of posts - including my own!
> 
> I would loose patience very quickly


Hmmm....

If we corrected all incorrect *grammar* on this forum there would be double the amount of posts - including my own!

I would *lose* patience very quickly 

Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## Stanic

neat roaster indeed!


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## Stevebee

DavecUK said:


> Hmmm....
> 
> If we corrected all incorrect *grammar* on this forum there would be double the amount of posts - including my own!
> 
> I would *lose* patience very quickly
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist.


Was intended as my pet peev is the lose/loose one - especially prevalent on HB I notice


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## DavecUK

Stevebee said:


> Was intended as my pet peev is the lose/loose one - especially prevalent on HB I notice


They're American, what do you expect


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## PaulL

Oh dear, this thread has too much chaff detracting from the good info on here 

Which leads neatly onto a point for new owners that roasts from the Dalian simply don't have chaff and if anyone has roasted with small Gene Cafe, iRoast, Hottop, Quest etc they will understand. I wouldn't know about Behmoor or Bullet. The cleanliness of the roasts exiting into the cooling tray is superb.

No point me talking about my roasting adjustments because mine is the previous spec and also fitted with power mod so I hesitated to post at all but it is possible that an international owner with similar previous spec will post one day. The original poster said little Dalian which it perhaps is amongst their other models but weighing in around 60kg is not small of course.

I typically only roast once in a session and so warm up for me is perhaps more important than those roasting back to back. As a result I limit the power to achieve consistent drop temp in any season meaning warm up time is my variable, typically 25m to 28m. Hopefully relevant info generally for someone.

My first year was spent getting to know the smoke damper well, three months since then has been spent learning when to partially close the cooling air damper later in the roast (combined with reducing the power input but that's another topic). My approach and power mod mean I never see element switching.

In my early months I got crazily fast roasts sometimes with 1st arriving in 7 or 8 mins and found one of the keys was the drop temp needing to be a bit lower. I also roasted 500g batches for a few weeks, the probe being outside of the bean mass meant I had to learn a new set of temp indicators but I got used to it. I agree 1kg is better though.

If none of this is relevant that's fine but if it helps discussion then that's good.


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## RDC8

Yesterday was first roasting day since receiving the missing Quick Start guide. Far better roasts with a faster ROR and 1st crack at higher temperatures (around 182 rather than 170!). Followed the advice to leave the CA damper fully open and to control everything through SD. I feel progress has been made! Furthermore, no scorching in any of the roasts. Just need to wait now until next week before sampling the end product.

Question: - any advice on how to physically blend different beans post roast? I was thinking of dropping them into the roaster (cold - of course) and running the drum for a few minutes to get them mixed together. Good idea? or nah? Alternatively, could they be mixed in the cooling tray using the stirring arms?


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## DavecUK

RDC8 said:


> Yesterday was first roasting day since receiving the missing Quick Start guide. Far better roasts with a faster ROR and 1st crack at higher temperatures (around 182 rather than 170!). Followed the advice to leave the CA damper fully open and to control everything through SD. I feel progress has been made! Furthermore, no scorching in any of the roasts. Just need to wait now until next week before sampling the end product.
> 
> Question: - any advice on how to physically blend different beans post roast? I was thinking of dropping them into the roaster (cold - of course) and running the drum for a few minutes to get them mixed together. Good idea? or nah? Alternatively, could they be mixed in the cooling tray using the stirring arms?


With a few kg of beans, just mix in a large container....it's sufficient.....with a 10+kg, you have no choice but to add the beans to the roaster and roast as a blend. This is the real reason most commercial roasters preblend, not because it's better.


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## PaulL

Always found this one difficult, you want beans which roast similarly and also grind similarly leaving you to choose beans which don't give you the complimentary flavours you seek e.g. I would not roast Brazilian and Ethiopian together or grind together.


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## RDC8

Hi. Just wondered if anyone else was having a problem with the exhaust hose supplied with their roaster? Mine has come apart now twice - at the end where it clamps onto the fan unit. It seems to be nothing more than heat-proof tape wound around the wire core - and the tape seems to pull apart of its own accord when subject to heat! Is anyone using better quality ducting which is up to the job? I have a length of aluminium a/c ducting attached to the other end just so it reaches the doorway - but not sure if will stand up to higher temperatures closer to the exhaust fan. Any thoughts or ideas most welcome. Thanks


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## RDC8

An update on my progress in learning to roast better; I posted earlier about my experiences with uneven roasting and scorched beans ... well the beans i were using were Brazil Santos. After moving on to some PNG and Colombian beans - which gave awesome results - I went back to apply my improved roasting techniques to the Santos. Result - terrible! Still unevenness in the result. These were cheap beans - and i think i can see why! Interestingly, the PNG lot were around the same price and have roasted far better (and also taste good in the cup!). I guess it is a lesson in the varying quality of region, variety, and processing. So much to learn ... so little time!!!!!


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## titanium

RDC8 said:


> Hi. Just wondered if anyone else was having a problem with the exhaust hose supplied with their roaster? Mine has come apart now twice - at the end where it clamps onto the fan unit. It seems to be nothing more than heat-proof tape wound around the wire core - and the tape seems to pull apart of its own accord when subject to heat! Is anyone using better quality ducting which is up to the job? I have a length of aluminium a/c ducting attached to the other end just so it reaches the doorway - but not sure if will stand up to higher temperatures closer to the exhaust fan. Any thoughts or ideas most welcome. Thanks


Yes, I had the same problem. Its pretty flimsy. I got aluminium ducting from Wickes. A lot more sturdy. You'll have to fold over the end to make the tube smaller.

http://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Round-Aluminium-Ducting-100mm-x-4m/p/713024


----------



## DavecUK

titanium said:


> Yes, I had the same problem. Its pretty flimsy. I got aluminium ducting from Wickes. A lot more sturdy. You'll have to fold over the end to make the tube smaller.
> 
> http://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Round-Aluminium-Ducting-100mm-x-4m/p/713024


I think I may use 125mm ducting, but I fold the edge over like you.. A bit of garden wire around the ducting and a bent bit makes a useful clip around one of the chaff collector fan bots to clip it into position, as i remove it after I have finished roasting. The Al stands up to the heat no problem, it has a melting point of 660C and the exhaust of the Dalian gets nowhere near that temperature. It's probably around 140C, even logic tells us it's impossible for it to be much above 210C.


----------



## RDC8

Thanks for the advice. I will swap around the aluminium ducting so it connects to the roaster's exhaust vent.


----------



## DavecUK

Well for anyone reading this thread, I did put together a training course for roasting on the Dalian as mentioned at the beginning of the thread for the two guys having problems. This was because a 3rd person contacted me my e-mail asking if I could do one after reading this thread. I wrote to the two guys in this thread as well with the details., but after a few weeks, I only heard from that 3rd guy who wanted a course and asked me to run it just for him. He was more than willing to cover the entire 3 person fee.

If I feel it goes well and I feel it's something I want (can be bothered) to do and the other person feels it's really of value. Then I may well formalise it for other Dalian Amazon purchasers, simply because it's commercial roaster and requires more skill than simply pushing a button (or sharing a profile with other learners) to get the best from it.


----------



## tuomI

I did the 1-day course with Dave on Saturday. To say it was worth it is a huge understatement. First of all it's a 2-3 day course in one. Prior to Saturday I had done one with a respectable roastery in London's East End and not only was it less hands on, it covered about 20% of the topics we did on Saturday. Anyone who has the Dalian would gain an awful lot by doing this course. And it's a stupid amount of value for the money. Now, my roasting experience is limited but I feel I learned an awful lot, not only about roasting but what happens inside the bean when it's roasted. Dave can go to as much detail as you want on the chemistry etc. And I feel in charge now, confident in approaching a new bean, controlling the roasts and replicating a roast (i didn't think it was possible to that degree of accuracy, makes you wonder why people use software). Bottom line is, if you've got a Dalian, you should seriously consider doing this course.

I've got no business interest in this and met Dave for the first time ever on Saturday. The reason I am posting this is because all Dalian owners should now it's available (Given Dave decides he wants to keep doing it going forward).


----------



## RDC8

So here i am, asking a question as i dont know what i dont know! I think I need to lower the two temperature controllers but thought I should run this past the experts first. Why do I think this? After putting through about 20 roasts of different beans and in different ambient conditions in the last few months, I am finding that I am mostly hitting 1st crack at around 180 degrees (Bean Temp) - sometimes as high as 185, but certainly well before the default setting of 195. So I am planning to lower both controllers by 5 degrees so that I can better control the ROR after first crack. (I also use the dampers to control but with the heating elements still on full power it is difficult to slow, therefore am thinking a lower max temp would also help with controlling ROR).

Is my thinking correct?

Should I lower the max temp even further?

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks


----------



## DavecUK

RDC8 said:


> So here i am, asking a question as i dont know what i dont know! I think I need to lower the two temperature controllers but thought I should run this past the experts first. Why do I think this? After putting through about 20 roasts of different beans and in different ambient conditions in the last few months, I am finding that I am mostly hitting 1st crack at around 180 degrees (Bean Temp) - sometimes as high as 185, but certainly well before the default setting of 195. So I am planning to lower both controllers by 5 degrees so that I can better control the ROR after first crack. (I also use the dampers to control but with the heating elements still on full power it is difficult to slow, therefore am thinking a lower max temp would also help with controlling ROR).
> 
> Is my thinking correct?
> 
> Should I lower the max temp even further? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks



What weight of beans are you roasting,

What is your mains voltage

What is the power draw of your roaster

What beans are you roasting

How long to 1st crack

Gap between 1st beginning and 2nd

Total roast time.

What exactly are you doing with air flow during the roast.

level of roast (dark medium light etc..)


I can't actually be bothered to write any more questions, except to say if you were trying to keep everything you were doing a secret, you would win 1st prize. Without some actual information, any advice is meaningless. Why not post up some roast logs


----------



## RDC8

ok - clearly one of the things i didnt know that i didnt know was the need to provide more information. Below are my last two (handwritten) logs - hope they make sense. oh - these were two back-to-back roasts









Note: the numbers in the Damper columns refer to the damper position, and the time at which they were moved to that position.

Voltage tends to be 238 to 241. Wattage draw between 2350 and 2410. I havent done the power mod.

I dont roast to 2nd crack.

Does this all help?


----------



## DavecUK

Well you certainly win the price for the smallest most illegible images you could post ...obviously don't want to make it easy for me.









Before you do anything check that the controllers have no offsets or anything in them and are set up as I specified, this information should be in the documentation supplied with the roaster by BB.


Set* roaster temp* to 193 max and try values of 191 to 193 for different beans. leave the other one alone.

All thermometry may not read exactly the same 185 on yours might be my 190 or someone elses 187 etc...it's normal for roasters to have some variance

Anticipate the roast more, don't wait until it's happening to apply air...it's too late by then.


e.g. batch 7, you might start with cooling air at 2 and increase it BEFORE hand to slow it down. At 5 minutes (152) you knew you were rising at 6C per minute with 1st likely at 180 ish, but you waited 3 more minutes to start pulling extra air. This would have been fine if you wanted 1st at around 9m:50s. I would have been pulling extra air at the 5 minute mark or before as I calculate (in my head) the ROR in 20s intervals. When you moved the damper from 2 to 6 it was far too late.

The main problem with roasting is in failing anticipate. There are lots of clues with the roaster to tell you if it's going to fast...as experience has already told you the approximate temperature for your roaster where 1st crack begins. it can come at a slightly lower temperature when you force the roasts, so you might find slowing the roast down also brings 1st crack at a slightly higher temperature.

I may decide to run roasting courses on the roaster, still thinking about it after my test training session with *@tuomI*....if I do you might get some value from attending one.....


----------



## tuomI

RDC8, if you have time and get a chance to do a sess with Dave go for it, it'll open your eyes (at least it opened mine). With my limited (should really read 'no') experience I've noticed one shouldn't don't worry about hitting first at 195/185 or whatever temp anyone else tells you (Mine sits at, bean mass temp, 172-173 and 175-176 respectively for two beans I am currently roasting). Once you know your 1st crack temp for a certain bean play with the airflow and taste the results. This is the key i found (am still finding):

*
**Davec - "The main problem with roasting is in failing anticipate"*

*
*

Bar a couple of early horrors... the roasts on the Dalian have tasted great.


----------



## RDC8

Wahoo - looks like i am a roll here. Two prizes in a week from @DavecUK !!! Perhaps i need to buy a lottery ticket to complete the hat-trick









Anyway - i guess my main fear has been stalling the roast and therefore have not been opening the dampers too early. However, it seems i am being overcautious and will see what happens with the next few roasts when i start to increase air-low earlier.

These later roasts are much better than my earlier attempts - you dont want to see the logs from before starting the batch numbers!!! No total disasters, but definitely in the "could do better category".

@tuomI - did you lower your temperature controllers given that you are hitting 1st crack well before the default setting? or have you left them alone?


----------



## DavecUK

I will just add that if your sure 1st pretty much starts at temp x on your roaster set the roast temp controller to that value e.g. if 1st always starts at 185, set it to 185 and play around from there....but always leave the other one alone.

There are ways I use the other t type controller when roasting, but that's far more advanced stuff and tells me a little about the effect I'm having with airflow during 1st...which can be fairly important for more nuanced roasting.


----------



## tuomI

RDC8, no I didn't change the temp setting, but I'll do that now as per Dave's suggestion. It'll probably be the last (for now.............) missing piece in getting to know the Dalian, always felt the roaster was a little too hot (having the roasting temp controller at 193-195)) for a first at 170-175.


----------



## tuomI

I've now done a couple of roasting sessions with the roast temp at 175c(as that's my fc temp, or thereabouts) and it's working. I'd say now the roaster works as per the descriptions/roasting aides in the manuals. I am having to pull a lot less air through to slow down the roast, get a nice ror curve and duplicating a roast is not an issue. very pleased.


----------



## Michel

Hello,

i'm new in this forum.

I am a happy owner of a Dalian roaster in Fuerteventura Canary Islands.

purchase it at Bella Barista and it was quite a journey before reaching the Islands. But so far so good. Since in place, we are using it every day and make lovely fresh roasted coffee and customers love it.

I like to try a thermocouple to connect to phone or tablet to record profiles!

could someone's tell me watt bran/model and where to buy it.

thanks in advance and sorry for bad English


----------



## RDC8

Hi @Michel

This setup looks great! Is the roaster visible from the customer perspective? or is it "out the back"?

Just to tease out your question .... why do you want to record your profiles on a tablet/laptop? How do you currently record them? What benefit(s) do you hope to gain? I am not wanting to talk you out of this, rather just to get you to consider the motivation behind it. Your Dalian should have come with a spare k-type thermocouple already installed- it is the cable that comes out from the front of the roaster with a small yellow plug on the end. You need to plug that into a meter, which will then output the readings via a USB connection to your tablet/laptop. Open source software called Artisan is widely used to log the data. You may have also read either in other threads or in the user manual, that this k-type probe is placed differently in the roaster so wont give you the same readings as you will get from the digital displays on the control panel. If you want accurate bean-mass readings then it is recommended that you swap the probe connections. However, this is beyond my experience so someone else will need to help you through this.

As for me, I dont use a data logger, rather I hand record the temperature progression and other key events (sample roasting log posted a few months ago on this thread). This is so I can refer back to a particular profile for a given bean which resulted in a great tasting coffee

However, I have just come across an app (Android) called Coffee Roaster. I have run a few "test" roasts using my hand written logs for the data and it certainly looks like it has some good potential. It doesn't connect to a thermocouple ... but it does allow for the user to record the temperature progress and other key events in a digital format, which can then be exported to other software. Maybe there are others on the forum who have used this app to record their roasts???

Sorry this is a bit of a ramble - but hope it helps


----------



## Michel

Hi RDC8,

yes it is visible to the customers. Really stylish and new in the island.

i like to record by computer because I don't have much time to do by hand as customers a continually coming in and out. I give 100% attention after 1st crack.

i like to keep data on easy way. I enderstand the data are not the sames, but if it's constant I can keep as a profile for me.

so it's a meter that I need?


----------



## Batian

Hi Michel,

The Android app that RDC8 referred to can be found here:

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?41224-Android-roast-log-app

I have trialled it and like it. I feel that it is probably more suited to a Tablet rather than a Smartphone. It uses English, but hopefully you will manage OK once you have explored and done some 'dummy' roasts to get the feel.

Best.


----------



## Michel

Hi Batian,

thanks for this. But before I need the temp meter to connect to device. Do you know brand and where to buy? As in here we can't find in local markets!

thanks

michel


----------



## RDC8

Michel said:


> Hi RDC8,
> 
> so it's a meter that I need?


Hi @Michel. Yes - you need a multimeter with a USB connection, and also the software on your laptop/tablet. I'm not sure of the what type/brand ... but @DavecUK might be able to provide some advice here.

You are right in that consistency of temp monitoring is more important than actual temp when recording/building profiles.

Good luck with this


----------



## Batian

Michel,

You may find this link and the contained links within, useful.

If you explore the links, you should find in most cases the software writers recommend various pieces of hardware that work well with their programs.

https://thinkingcoffee.wordpress.com/2014/11/20/coffee-software/

Best.

Ps. The Roast Logger link in the above seems to be out of date.

This one works at present.

http://roastlogger.co.uk/coffee/roastlogger/roastlogger.htm

Click button for 'Input devices'


----------



## Michel

RDC8 said:


> Hi @Michel. Yes - you need a multimeter with a USB connection, and also the software on your laptop/tablet. I'm not sure of the what type/brand ... but @DavecUK might be able to provide some advice here.
> 
> You are right in that consistency of temp monitoring is more important than actual temp when recording/building profiles.
> 
> Good luck with this


thank you


----------



## Michel

Batian said:


> Michel,
> 
> You may find this link and the contained links within, useful.
> 
> If you explore the links, you should find in most cases the software writers recommend various pieces of hardware that work well with their programs.
> 
> https://thinkingcoffee.wordpress.com/2014/11/20/coffee-software/
> 
> Best.
> 
> Ps. The Roast Logger link in the above seems to be out of date.
> 
> This one works at present.
> 
> http://roastlogger.co.uk/coffee/roastlogger/roastlogger.htm
> 
> Click button for 'Input devices'


thank you Batian


----------



## Batian

Further Ps.

As RDC8 points out above, you should have had a spare thermocouple supplied with your roaster by Bella Barista. If you are not using this one, check here :https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?26651-It-s-that-time-of-year-again-New-Roaster-coming-on-test/page22

for clearance measurements within the drum and/or contact DaveC on this forum to be certain.

Re reading the thread referred to above, it would seem this is covered in the 42 page guide that should have been supplied with your roaster. It would also seem some customers found they did not have the correct documents sent with the roaster.

Please see the post on this page:

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?26651-It-s-that-time-of-year-again-New-Roaster-coming-on-test/page21

If you did not get those three documents, you need to contact Bella Barista immediately. I am sure they will be able to help you.

(apologies to others---as the querry is from someone who has English as a second language, I am trying to give as much info as possible so he can avoid trouble)


----------



## Michel

Batian said:


> Further Ps.
> 
> As RDC8 points out above, you should have had a spare thermocouple supplied with your roaster by Bella Barista. If you are not using this one, check here :https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?26651-It-s-that-time-of-year-again-New-Roaster-coming-on-test/page22
> 
> for clearance measurements within the drum and/or contact DaveC on this forum to be certain.
> 
> Re reading the thread referred to above, it would seem this is covered in the 42 page guide that should have been supplied with your roaster. It would also seem some customers found they did not have the correct documents sent with the roaster.
> 
> Please see the post on this page:
> 
> https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?26651-It-s-that-time-of-year-again-New-Roaster-coming-on-test/page21
> 
> If you did not get those three documents, you need to contact Bella Barista immediately. I am sure they will be able to help you.
> 
> (apologies to others---as the querry is from someone who has English as a second language, I am trying to give as much info as possible so he can avoid trouble)


the roaster is complete and came with cable and the yellow plug to connect to thermometer.

i have all the documents ok. Just a matter of language. But with your help it will be .

Here is link to our Facebook so you can see the roaster in place.

I will post some more picture tomorrow.

https://m.facebook.com/ElArcoLajares


----------



## CampervanCoffeeCo

Hello

Just a quick one, could I have your recommendations for K type thermometers, so many on the market, I just need one that is accurate and reacts quick enough to keep up with temperature rises. if you are using one that works well, please advise,

Many thanks

M


----------



## Densven

Finally finished the trolley for my roaster.


----------



## Hasi

CampervanCoffeeCo said:


> Hello
> 
> Just a quick one, could I have your recommendations for K type thermometers, so many on the market, I just need one that is accurate and reacts quick enough to keep up with temperature rises. if you are using one that works well, please advise,
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> M


Might be a little late, but quick reaction times might not be what you ultimately want in a temperature probe.

Especially with K-type sensors (known to be a bit erratic compared to PT100s), too thin a sheath can for instance make a bean mass probe wrongfully respond to changes in airflow while it should have reflected internal bean temp. Been there, done that









Secondly, roast logging software should be set to readout intervals of around 3-5s to create smooth curves with K-types. Together with data errors (packet loss) you may otherwise very well see a zig zag line that needs post-roast flattening. The latter being more destructive to the displayed information.

When aiming for solid profile curves, I'd stick to a 6mm (diameter) Inconel or stainless steel probe with a closed end. On the Dalian Amazon you should not exceed the original length (=40mm sheath, 50mm in total including a 10mm M8 thread) because of possible interference with rotating drum components. Depending on the application, you might need to keep in mind which connector it should feature.

No pinpoint advice, I know, but it really doesn't matter that much which make or brand you're buying, stay in mid-range (around 20-30 quid) and you're going to be fine!


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

Hi all. Very interesting to stumble over this thread and have a read of peoples experiences. I purchased one of the first batch in to the UK around 2 years back and I started my business with it. I roasted a LOT of coffee on this machine before I moved on to my current roaster. I only really have positive things to say about it.

I was fastidious with my cleaning routine and I also oiled bits regularly and it never let me down.

The only slight problem I suffered was a faulty probe at around the 18 month mark but that was a cheap fix and the machine still operated anyway. When I first got the machine the K-type thermocouple was wired the wrong way around but again very quick fix.

I had some beautiful coffee out of this machine and got a lot of business from it. I went from full time employment elsewhere with this roaster down to part and eventually fully sustained myself using this machine. I even won a Great Taste Award in 2017 with coffee roasted on it so I the machine is more than capable of awesome results.

I fully recommend this machine for the home roaster!

Just remembered, the supplied exhaust hose was pitiful, like tinfoil! Probable lasted a week at most. Not too big of a problem, decent stuff on ebay for under £10. I don't know if they have changed it now but I sincerely hope they have.


----------



## CampervanCoffeeCo

Hello

I've been roasting on the Dalian for almost a year, I started to roast manually so as to understand the process of both heat, airflow and the consequences, now I'm getting some great results. However the inevitable is upon me and its now time to hook up some software, I have the k type thermocouple that comes with the roaster, what do I need to hook up to a laptop. I guess I'll use the artisan software?

Many thanks


----------



## CampervanCoffeeCo

Many thanks Hasi, good points well made.


----------



## DavecUK

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Hi all. Very interesting to stumble over this thread and have a read of peoples experiences. I purchased one of the first batch in to the UK around 2 years back and I started my business with it. I roasted a LOT of coffee on this machine before I moved on to my current roaster. I only really have positive things to say about it.
> 
> I was fastidious with my cleaning routine and I also oiled bits regularly and it never let me down.
> 
> The only slight problem I suffered was a faulty probe at around the 18 month mark but that was a cheap fix and the machine still operated anyway. When I first got the machine the K-type thermocouple was wired the wrong way around but again very quick fix.
> 
> I had some beautiful coffee out of this machine and got a lot of business from it. I went from full time employment elsewhere with this roaster down to part and eventually fully sustained myself using this machine. I even won a Great Taste Award in 2017 with coffee roasted on it so I the machine is more than capable of awesome results.
> 
> I fully recommend this machine for the home roaster!
> 
> Just remembered, the supplied exhaust hose was pitiful, like tinfoil! Probable lasted a week at most. Not too big of a problem, decent stuff on ebay for under £10. I don't know if they have changed it now but I sincerely hope they have.


I never ever used the supplied hose, I simply moulded the end of a bit of 100 mm aluminium ducting (the semi rigid extendible type) to fit the smaller outlet on the chaff collector. My run is short, so it works very well also doesn't restrict flow. For longer runs I would probably use something like this.

https://tinyurl.com/y8krzlk5

https://tinyurl.com/y8krzlk5

It's also nice to hear how well the roaster has worked for you...I also think it's an excellent roaster. not just very good value for money but I believe you could spend much more and get much less in the 1kg class in terms of it's performance. It gives a really even roast as well.https://tinyurl.com/y8krzlk5


----------



## Batian

My own DTP ability is extremely limited, so has anyone come up with (willing to share?) or sourced a roast log template that is suited to the Amazon?


----------



## Beeroclock

Hasi said:


> Might be a little late, but quick reaction times might not be what you ultimately want in a temperature probe.
> 
> Especially with K-type sensors (known to be a bit erratic compared to PT100s), too thin a sheath can for instance make a bean mass probe wrongfully respond to changes in airflow while it should have reflected internal bean temp. Been there, done that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly, roast logging software should be set to readout intervals of around 3-5s to create smooth curves with K-types. Together with data errors (packet loss) you may otherwise very well see a zig zag line that needs post-roast flattening. The latter being more destructive to the displayed information.
> 
> When aiming for solid profile curves, I'd stick to a 6mm (diameter) Inconel or stainless steel probe with a closed end. On the Dalian Amazon you should not exceed the original length (=40mm sheath, 50mm in total including a 10mm M8 thread) because of possible interference with rotating drum components. Depending on the application, you might need to keep in mind which connector it should feature.
> 
> No pinpoint advice, I know, but it really doesn't matter that much which make or brand you're buying, stay in mid-range (around 20-30 quid) and you're going to be fine!


Interesting been experimenting with different probes on my Quest - partly because it came with a variety from it's previous owner. But this process has also led me to an article by Scott Rao

https://www.scottrao.com/blog/2018/2/24/what-is-baked-coffee-most-pros-dont-know

He mentions that anything thicker than 3mm might struggle with picking up on ROR crashes especially in the development stage. Everything with a pinch of salt I know - something I'm learning with the Quest - no 2 roasters behave them same...


----------



## Hasi

Yep, I was made aware of this blog just very recently and haven't picked up every detail of it, yet.

My (currently valid) opinion is that what you are seeing on a temp chart does not necessarily reflect exactly what happens in your beans.

Different probe types and designs behave differently and therefore mask one or another aspect. So far, coffee world hasn't found a perfect method...

Keep on roasting and making notes so you can build on your very own experience. That's what's most important, I believe.


----------



## Batian

Gaining in confidence, I decided to be brave and try roasting some Monsooned Malabar today. From my experiences with this bean in the Gene, I did this 900gms as the first batch to make use of the slower roast times that are typical of first batch. I sorted out a good handful of beans that were obvious defects and that included some that had been visited by Borer Beetle. There was a mix of sizes and even a fair proportion of Peaberry

All temperatures are in C. The controllers are set at AT 185 and RT 220. Other beans have been going into 1C at roughly 174C,

First observation of note, charge temps were RT 174 and AT 220. The drop in temp was dramatic---I have been expecting it to bottom out at about 150, the Malabar went down to 130 @2 mins. At 2.22' mins it started to rise.

With other beans I have had to regulate the temperature ROR using the dampers and the on off switch. With this Malabar, it was a straight run through with the SD pulled to 4cm @3mins (steam) and the CA open all the way throughout.

At 10 .40' and 166C came the first little pops, well in to 1/C at 11 mins.

On the basis of colour, 1/C appearing well over, and previous Malabar knowledge of how quick it goes over the top, I stopped the roast at 13.6'. I describe the colour as Medium with some beans to to Medium Dark.

First impressions......I am reasonably happy with it at the moment. There is a mix of browns, but given the beans nature and process, it is to be expected.

There was a 15.77% weight loss.


----------



## Batian

re above:

I tried the M-M this morning, 6.5 days after roasting.

There is the odd bean that has a small oil dot, but you really have to shake them about to find them.

In the cup, good, just as it should be.

Compared to the Gene, I have found with other coffees they have needed longer to degas and develop, so the next few days may see further improvement.


----------



## Hasi

Nice!

Love to read about others who enjoy this roaster. It's such a satifsying little big machine











Batian said:


> Compared to the Gene, I have found with other coffees they have needed longer to degas and develop, so the next few days may see further improvement.


I've been vacuum-sealing my beans for quite a while now using regular food sealer bags (no valve).

Since roasting on the Amazon I had to move away from sealing directly after cooling phase because it would give me unpleasantly sour notes in the cup. I had this happening even ten days after the roast, when freshly opened... it must have something to do with CO2-saturation and inside pressure that limits further processing/degassing.

Now I fill the bags, put them upright in a dark and calm spot for a rest, and only vac/seal within 4-8 hours. Doing so, I figured I can keep the taste defect away while not letting beans oxidate (CO2 being heavier than and therefore displacing air in upright bags). Interestingly, they do not start to inflate until 3 days into resting. After a week, I cut the bags open and immediately re-vac/seal. After another day or so, the bags show slight signs of inflation again.

In the end of the day it will be necessary to purchase proper valve bags...









As the Gene basically pushes hot air through its perforated drum, I can see this to be a reason for different developmental behaviour of the same beans - in addition to a more gentle treatment by a bigger/slower drum and the delay of conductive heat transfer in the Amazon...


----------



## Ted_Kent

I am still yet to turn mine on. On a positive note through its home got planning permission approved by the council this week, so it being used is getting ever closer.


----------



## Batian

The Malabar has improved and/or the tweaking of weight and grind has improved it. It is really very nice. I would recommend going through it for defects before roasting though.

In the same session I roasted this:

https://www.smallbatchroasting.co.uk/product-page/papua-new-guinea-a-x-korofeigu-coop

It is a 'new in' and here is a heads up!

Taste is subjective, but if you like this sort of coffee, it's extremely good value.

I am getting a great deal of pleasure from it and my brewing notes are 'excellent' and similar.


----------



## Hasi

Ted_Kent said:


> I am still yet to turn mine on. On a positive note through its home got planning permission approved by the council this week, so it being used is getting ever closer.


Are you building a shed of sorts?







!!

Would you ming sharing a floorplan?


----------



## Ted_Kent

Sorry if this comes out sideways and all over the place as I am posting on the app.

I'm building a garage/workshop in my garden. I was always building this anyway due to owning a couple of old minis but I have decided that I will have a dedicated space for roasting seperate from the garage split with a partition wall.

It's standard brick/block construction but clad to match the house. I am doing this as if I move at any point I can get planning for it to be used as a annex and maximise my potential return on the property.


----------



## Hasi

This is grade A awesome!

As for the Minis, there should be room for at least one in every home









Never underestimate the power of the Three Point Turn (as famously shown by Austin Powers)





 (while we're at it: RIP Verne Troyer...) Once you get the hang of it, you can fit as many Minis AND coffee roasters in this place as you can think of - well, almost... just as a side note.

Looking very much forward to following your progress...!


----------



## Ted_Kent

Hasi said:


> This is grade A awesome!
> 
> As for the Minis, there should be room for at least one in every home
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Never underestimate the power of the Three Point Turn (as famously shown by Austin Powers)


I'm looking forward to it getting started, permission arrived about a week before the planned arrival date so that was nice.

I am yet to plan the internals, but originally my intentions were to have around 10m of car/tools etc space which is huge considering the size of minis but having it sized for 1 normal car and 1 mini future proofs it a bit. Then having approx 5m of clean space beyond a partition wall for me to roast, store beans and have a couple of ovens possibly. If it turns out I need more space I can just move the partition wall in either direction.

When the build starts I'll no doubt post a thread.

Now onto sitting down and drawing up some rough internal layout plans. Also water in/out, power and gas.


----------



## Hasi

Just stopped by for a little Dalian Amazon praise...!

It's such a marvellous roaster









The other day, I roasted batches 31 and 32 in which I achieved 100% identical temp curves, once again. Eventhough the first batch came in directly after (thorough) warm-up.

A while ago I figured for my workflow that extending warm-up procedure a bit (power mod, altered damper adjustment) yields more predictability. After a roast, I let the roaster rest until I eject the dumped beans from cooling tray. This has to do with entering final weight into my roast logging software so it saves with the profile before I record a new roast (as well as a more laid back process). It usually takes around 5mins extra as I fire up the heat elements again only halfway into cooling phase. So no real back-to-back roasting, however, my results are nicely consistent









One thing that I would recommend to new users: stick to one bean until you get to grips with all details of roasting with your new equipment.

I've switched varietals a couple times in the beginning and I found it hard to understand and track down the occasional error. Now, with some 25 batches of Guatemalan Finca Medina washed SHB on record, I believe to know the machine well enough to tackle more demanding species with ease.

Happy roasting everybody!


----------



## Batian

What are the guidelines for roasting peaberry?

Should I reduce the weight as I would for the Gene?

Others experience please.


----------



## DavecUK

Batian said:


> What are the guidelines for roasting peaberry?
> 
> Should I reduce the weight as I would for the Gene?
> 
> Others experience please.


No need to reduce weight, tend to be smaller so will take on heat quickly....don't let the roast get out of control going into 1st


----------



## Batian

So will I need to be more aware and careful in managing the ROR below ten minutes?

1st C in other roasts are being managed to occur at 10 to 11 minutes (as your examples) and happen at 174C,

Thanks for the reply.


----------



## Hasi

Batian said:


> So will I need to be more aware and careful in managing the ROR below ten minutes?
> 
> 1st C in other roasts are being managed to occur at 10 to 11 minutes (as your examples) and happen at 174C,
> 
> Thanks for the reply.


I didn't roast any Peaberries in the Amazon, yet, so just in general: be careful, but don't stall.

Here's a good read recommended to me by a fellow forum member earlier: https://www.scottrao.com/blog/2018/2/24/what-is-baked-coffee-most-pros-dont-know

It is difficult to track this detail with the standard probes a Dalian Amazon comes with, but experience will tell you what to do









I usually apply a little less heat (~80% with power mod) well before 1C so I can ramp up to around 90% some 30sec before 1C. Doing so added heat kicks in again at a time where a stall becomes likely. Then, I gradually reduce heat and open SD through 1C, keeping an eye or two on bean temp. At the end of 1C, I cut all heat and let the roast roll on just by balancing the damper(s). If your roast starts to get out of control, be quick in closing CA while keeping SD open (or opening it further) - until RT normalises again. It's obviously not best practice and will reduce cup quality, however, it might prevent bigger issues.

Off to prepare some brew...


----------



## Millmount

Hi everyone. This is my first post. Is this the right place for questions if I am considering buying a Dalian Amazon?


----------



## DavecUK

Millmount said:


> Hi everyone. This is my first post. Is this the right place for questions if I am considering buying a Dalian Amazon?


Yes


----------



## Batian

Millmount said:


> Hi everyone. This is my first post. Is this the right place for questions if I am considering buying a Dalian Amazon?


Welcome.

You will also find a wealth of information in this thread:

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?26651-It-s-that-time-of-year-again-New-Roaster-coming-on-test

DavecUK (post above) was involved in the redesign of the Amazon for the UK/EU market.


----------



## Millmount

I want to get a Amazon when they are available. The only place I can have it is in my cellar (or get a shed). Can anyone tell me what electric supply I need and importantly what ventilation I would need. It will be quite near the coal chute so I was hoping to be able to rig some ducting to the outside. Has anyone done anything like this or is it a no go. Thanks in advance everyone.


----------



## Millmount

I want to get a Amazon when they are available. The only place I can have it is in my cellar (or get a shed). Can anyone tell me what electric supply I need and importantly what ventilation I would need. It will be quite near the coal chute so I was hoping to be able to rig some ducting to the outside. Has anyone done anything like this or is it a no go. Thanks in advance everyone.


----------



## DavecUK

Millmount said:


> I want to get a Amazon when they are available. The only place I can have it is in my cellar (or get a shed). Can anyone tell me what electric supply I need and importantly what ventilation I would need. It will be quite near the coal chute so I was hoping to be able to rig some ducting to the outside. Has anyone done anything like this or is it a no go. Thanks in advance everyone.


Good 13 amp supply, normal 3 pin plug. Don't use the supplied ducting hose use a 120mm one and squash it down a bit at one end to connect to the Dalian. in this way you maximise airflow.


----------



## Millmount

Thanks DavecUK. Do you think it would be okay in the cellar? Would I need any fan on the ducting?


----------



## Hasi

Millmount said:


> Thanks DavecUK. Do you think it would be okay in the cellar? Would I need any fan on the ducting?


As long as you don't plan to lay it all around your basement but rather take the shortest possible route, the Amazon fan will suffice.

I had it connected to an in-line fan using supplied hose (full length) but found it disturbing regarding damper controls.

Now, I use this extra fan to vent my roasting area - which is located down below, as well. Reason for this is especially when dumping beans you'll have fumes rising from the cooling tray. Yes, there's a technique to largely avoid this, however, it takes away my attention from other things I intend to do upon and straight after dumping.

So you might want to consider some additions to your setup once you get to grips with the roaster in your place - but nothing urgently needed to get started.

Enjoy!


----------



## Hasi

The other day I finally switched temp probes to dual


















When stripping original wiring I found a burnt section at upper holding bracket of RT cable (next to sight glass). Still, probe worked until replaced.










Controllers read exactly as before plus I can connect to Artisan using MyPClab. Did a quick check-up run with empty drum and found temp readings differ pretty much - tried to nail the issue but no success until midnight. All wires and connectors are identical as can be, so must be a calibration thing...

...looking forward to seeing my plan come together


----------



## johnealey

Will be interested to see how you get along with this.

John


----------



## Hasi

It's completely awkward to adjust... like a new roaster









3mm sheaths behave so much differently, TP I see happens at 1:30 >155°C ??

Controllers and computer wouldn't read the same so had to adjust by writing a corrective function into Artisan. Doesn't work perfectly at the moment so will sit down and rethink, eventually.

And I'm under the impression that airflow has an effect on temp readings - so might look into getting 6mm dual probes as well...

But now onto todays Typica roast-off:

Guatemala (Finca Medina washed) vs. Panama (Berlina Estate washed)


----------



## Hasi

oooh and pulling probes has an instant effect on temp curve!!


----------



## Hasi




----------



## SoleBay

Finally the Amazon has arrived....bit of a delay as I have been away for a couple of weeks but shiny new toy is in the garage.....unfortunately no space for it yet been too busy with other projects but will be first on the agenda for the weekend!!


----------



## scottybourn

how did you attached the 3mm prob into the roaster ??


----------



## Hasi

scottybourn said:


> how did you attached the 3mm prob into the roaster ??


Like a boss 

It's still a temp solution (but need to wait out my recovery after a little surgery of my thumb...): used a stack of rivets that went tightly over the probe and one another and into the original placements. Fixed by original grub screws. Works fine for 10 roasts now...!

When I return to using tools, I'll a. re-wire everything to better cope with interference and b. take some bolts (M12 I believe...), drill 3mm holes through the middle and try my luck again


----------



## DavecUK

just get yourself an M12 to M3 reducer or whatever it is you need.


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> just get yourself an M12 to M3 reducer or whatever it is you need.
> 
> View attachment 35574


Probes have straight 3mm flanks, no thread or anything. I put up an image at some point... but could still work by using an M4 (inner thread dia. 3.24mm).

Didn't realise (again) that there's always a solution somewhere, already









Thanks Dave!


----------



## Hasi

It'll be around .50/piece two needed and a 10er shipping costs


----------



## DavecUK

I think you will find the part you want off the shelf, search for something like m12 thermal probe holder etc..


----------



## Beeroclock

I've been looking into thermocouple compression fittings for my Cormorant and it seems most off the shelf units are for 1/8th or 1/4 NPT - so an easier solution might be to get an M12 adaptor to either of those two...

Alternatively - it'll cost approx £15 to have one made specifically.

cheers Phil


----------



## scottybourn

this might work https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/cable-glands/0564951/



Beeroclock said:


> I've been looking into thermocouple compression fittings for my Cormorant and it seems most off the shelf units are for 1/8th or 1/4 NPT - so an easier solution might be to get an M12 adaptor to either of those two...
> 
> Alternatively - it'll cost approx £15 to have one made specifically.
> 
> cheers Phil


----------



## Beeroclock

the only problem I see there is the temperature range is -40 to +100 so may not be suitable....


----------



## Beeroclock

scottybourn said:


> this might work https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/cable-glands/0564951/


Ok so I've ordered one of these in albeit mine is and M6 with 3mm diameter hole - will see how it copes with the heat...


----------



## Batian

What are the guidelines for roasting peaberry?

Should I reduce the weight as I would for the Gene?

Others experience please.



DavecUK said:


> No need to reduce weight, tend to be smaller so will take on heat quickly....don't let the roast get out of control going into 1st


Dave,

Whilst researching to do this roast, (https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?11791-Todays-Roast&p=613096#post613096) I came across this article which relates to Kenyan coffee in general as well as Kenyan PBs:

https://legacy.sweetmarias.com/library/roasting-kenyas/

The author suggests a slower drying time.

Your thoughts please, on the article and how best to do the slowing.

Thank you.


----------



## DavecUK

Batian said:


> Dave,
> 
> Whilst researching to do this roast, (https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?11791-Todays-Roast&p=613096#post613096) I came across this article which relates to Kenyan coffee in general as well as Kenyan PBs:
> 
> https://legacy.sweetmarias.com/library/roasting-kenyas/
> 
> The author suggests a slower drying time.
> 
> Your thoughts please, on the article and how best to do the slowing.
> 
> Thank you.


My thoughts on the article:


The article is probably quite an old one. The size of a bean directly affects the surface area to volume ratio, this has an effect on the way it roasts and can be emphasised/de emphasised depending on the type of roaster...fluid bed, hybridized, drum. This is further complicated by the way the roaster is set up for any particular roast...so when the article talks about size, it's probably a little simplistic.

Who is it aimed at, home roasters with tiny roasters of 250g, or people with commercial roasters and what type of roaster; (popper, gene Hottop, Freshroast, Behmor, Bullet, barbecue mesh drum...I think they have dabbled in all of these?

Is the intended audience the commercial or home roaster

It's very vague, doesn't really give any information


As for drying time, what is it exactly? I recognises the terms, drop temp, turnaround time and temp, ramp rate (ROR), time to 1st (from TA and SOR), duration of 1st, start of 1st to start of 2nd, 2nd.......but not really drying time. I'm sorry but I really don't personally know what they mean by drying time.

As for the slowing, when during the roast are you talking about?


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> As for drying time, what is it exactly? I recognises the terms, drop temp, turnaround time and temp, ramp rate (ROR), time to 1st (from TA and SOR), duration of 1st, start of 1st to start of 2nd, 2nd.......but not really drying time. I'm sorry but I really don't personally know what they mean by drying time.


My understanding suggests drying phase to be everything before beans start to yellow.

In more physical terms, this should be the period where moisture (or at least most of it) exists a bean - to be completed at around 150°C.

Logging software such as Artisan usually features a marker for this event as many appear to think of it as crucial to reach this point at some 30% of total roast time.

Very inaccurate, because when do they actually start to change in colour? Does your probe read correctly?

On the other hand serving as a waypoint, so just a different way to describe [Turning Point + RoR]... ?!


----------



## Batian

Thanks Davec. As expected detailed reply expressing the lack of detail in the Sweet M's post! But I had to ask.......

My understanding (from reading posts from US roasters) of 'drying time' is as Hasi has said above. Our cousins seem to use the expression quite a bit. Perhaps it is just two nations separated by a common language.









I asked because I suspected you would not endorse this approach with the Amazon....should that be your last sentence?


----------



## DavecUK

Batian said:


> Thanks Davec. As expected detailed reply expressing the lack of detail in the Sweet M's post! But I had to ask.......
> 
> My understanding (from reading posts from US roasters) of 'drying time' is as Hasi has said above. Our cousins seem to use the expression quite a bit. Perhaps it is just two nations separated by a common language.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I asked because I suspected you would not endorse this approach with the Amazon....should that be your last sentence?


In truth I don't know....I mean you could slow the rise to 150, or from 150 to whatever other temp. Turnaround is around 138-142, so that's tricky and during that period they go from cold to 140 ish. Even then I suspect they are still warming to the centre. various reactions don't start until certain temperatures and I concern myself more about those phases and how long I want to be in them (e.g. maillard and caramelisation etc..). It's quite right to say that most moisture is gone by the time the entire bean has reached 150C ish....and by 1st little if any water remains.

There is some confusion amongst roasters as to when certain reactions happen...the Maillard can happen at 140C+, but because we need a protein and a reducing sugar present, typically not much happens until about 180 ish+ as sucrose starts to break down into reducing sugars, glucose and fructose.. The upshot being that an important time is 180 onwards and at that point you can Rob peter to pay Paul with Maillard vs Caramelisation vs sweetness....how long you spend in that zone is a personal choice.


----------



## Beeroclock

My understanding of this is the relation to bean density and how the charge temp/drum heat etc affects the bean - i.e. low grown less dense beans can benefit from a more gentle charge and "soak" as opposed to higher grown dense beans which can take higher more aggressive initial heat. I'm assuming that the goal is basically to get the bean past drying i.e. 150-155c so that both the inside and outside of the bean are reasonably even, because nothing much is happening before this stage other than moisture loss...but I'm pretty much a nube...

Cheers Phil


----------



## Hasi

And yet it all comes down to how we take measurements.

My experience with the Amazon so far is mostly consistent with what Dave wrote in his user guide: 1st crack at around 185°C (SHB types). Which is 5-10°C less than "scientific" average. But I guess that's how sensors and controllers work together in this specific arrangement.

Now that I have installed dual probes I get two different readings all the time. In fact, don't know which one to trust more...







And still, I cannot make out any specific ratio to apply corrective functions.

But that's a different story... the point I'm trying to make is that we should't rely on temp readings too much. Even less we should compare our readings with what others record on their equipment.

Or maybe I'm wrong and it actually IS important to objectify and adjust to the norm?


----------



## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> And yet it all comes down to how we take measurements.
> 
> My experience with the Amazon so far is mostly consistent with what Dave wrote in his user guide: 1st crack at around 185°C (SHB types). Which is 5-10°C less than "scientific" average. But I guess that's how sensors and controllers work together in this specific arrangement.
> 
> Now that I have installed dual probes I get two different readings all the time. In fact, don't know which one to trust more...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And still, I cannot make out any specific ratio to apply corrective functions.
> 
> But that's a different story... the point I'm trying to make is that we should't rely on temp readings too much. Even less we should compare our readings with what others record on their equipment.
> 
> Or maybe I'm wrong and it actually IS important to objectify and adjust to the norm?


*I think you're wise not to put too much store into other peoples temperatures because of slight differences in every roaster (e.g. probe length, placement, vanes, airflow). long ago I learnt roasters are like people....to an alien we would all look exactly the same, but we're also all quite different. That said there are things people could do to make sharing information much easier and of far more value.*


All coffee reaches 1st at a similar temperature (apart from those outlier coffees)...this will be around 193-196C.....unless whizzed up to first super fast or super slow. So we could say 1st when we hear it is 195C (not just a pop or two, but first beginning. 

Knowing this a simple procedure would be to take a standard sort of bean, Brazilian, Costa Rican, Nicaraguan, El Salfvador, Rawandan etc.. etc.. up to first and record the temperature (try to take it up to first no faster than 10 minutes and no slower than 13 minutes). If you guys then share your temperatures and the coffee roasted, plus the wattage shown when roasting, you will come up with numbers that might be all similar or might be all different. It will be interesting to see how roasters vary. *Mine for example reaches 1st about 193-195C depending on the exact coffee*. I have had others in for training who say theirs is 185 or something like that. So there certainly are differences.

Once you guys have shared that, you will have a better idea where your roaster is in relation to others....then the simple procedure is simply to program an offset into the bean mass controller (ewelly) to actually show the "corrected temperature" e.g. if your first is at 186C, then add 8C so your controller shows 194C

*If you all did this, then you would be sharing a set of "normalised" readings and it would make more sense and be more useful. *



*
*@hasi It would also tell you more about where the other probe is in it's readings, as outside of the main bean mass things are quite different.


----------



## NAJB

Looking back over my roast logs (just over 100) temperatures at first crack all lie in a 184 to 190 region (Amazon roaster), with the majority centred on 184 to 186. The 190 appears to be the norm for Brazilian coffee.


----------



## DavecUK

NAJB said:


> Looking back over my roast logs (just over 100) temperatures at first crack all lie in a 184 to 190 region (Amazon roaster), with the majority centred on 184 to 186. The 190 appears to be the norm for Brazilian coffee.


So for your roaster adding 10C offset should make 185C show as 195C, which is bringing you into the ballpark of accurate and close to the reference roaster....mine.


----------



## Hasi

Thanks Dave!

Totally agree, we shall not overly focus on numbers but rather establish a sense for operating the Amazon, blindly.

I've been very keen on learning just that over the past months 

Still, I'd wish to see matching figures on both devices, PC and internal controllers.

Interestingly, on all five (2x dual plus 1x ambient) inputs I get equal readings within .5 degrees in ambient temp range. With a varying difference of around 20°C @1st crack I'm looking at an increasing deflexion that cannot simply be normalised by offsetting values. I've tried and failed so far.

Might as well keep everything as is, but my inner perfectionist usually tells me to stay curious...


----------



## Dotix

Hi Hasi - I like your dual probe approach

Would you mind sharing some details like part code -where to get them?

Thank you.


----------



## Hasi

Dotix said:


> Hi Hasi - I like your dual probe approach
> 
> Would you mind sharing some details like part code -where to get them?
> 
> Thank you.


Hi,

I ordered to @scottybourn 's specifications from Thermosense. They've been really helpful!

Presuming nobody has anything against it, here's Scotty's original Sales Order number: 71227 as well as mine: 71637

They're taylor-made probes, at the moment.

Maybe, if of further interest, @DavecUK would you take a look for BB to put (something like) this up as spares?


----------



## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> Hi,
> 
> I ordered to @scottybourn 's specifications from Thermosense. They've been really helpful!
> 
> Presuming nobody has anything against it, here's Scotty's original Sales Order number: 71227 as well as mine: 71637
> 
> They're taylor-made probes, at the moment.
> 
> Maybe, if of further interest, @DavecUK would you take a look for BB to put (something like) this up as spares?


I doubt they will, their main interest is supporting the standard roaster, I am not sure they are looking to make money on things like this. Better if people simply buy them direct.


----------



## Dotix

Thank you - I'll check with Thermosense then - let's see how it goes, customized orders tends to be pricey.

Another option I am thinking is just to get 2 of the shelf 3mm probes(1 PT100 and 1 K thermocouple) and drill M12 cap to accommodate both probes side by side


----------



## Hasi

Just saying, Dave









I've discussed with Claudette a while ago, and yea, it's not in their primary scope.

She referred me to Cropster, saying they might already have a solution. Turned out they spoke to Scotty at the time.

Dunno how many have tried to connect roast logging hard/software, by now. With supplied K-type, I could not retrieve meaningful information in Artisan.

Reason behind my journey is: I'm planning to kickstart a little side business based on the Amazon, and so do others. As you know, it takes repeatable results in a busy environment. Manual logging is very time consuming. With back-to-back roasting, and I'm into this already fulfilling friends and family coffee needs, you have plenty of tasks besides operating your machine. Weighing, packing, labelling, you name it.

The way I understand it, our 1kg Amazon is a roaster aimed at folk that set sail in a professional context, sooner or later. Typical home roasters would rather get a Gene, Hottop or Quest. It might be only my imagination, however, I see a certain need for connectivity. Maybe in future releases, maybe as an upgrade kit.

As an alternative, I've also been looking into replacing the Ewelly controllers with a Fuji PXF4. I'll explore further once the roaster warranty has lapsed









____

Sure thing, @Dotix - when going your way, let's not forget that a single sheath makes for equal responsiveness and readings (that's at least my idea of a dual probe).


----------



## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> The way I understand it, our 1kg Amazon is a roaster aimed at folk that set sail in a professional context, sooner or later. Typical home roasters would rather get a Gene, Hottop or Quest. It might be only my imagination, however, I see a certain need for connectivity. Maybe in future releases, maybe as an upgrade kit.


But, they managed before computers.....the thing is when really going on the roasting....and producing 4 or 5 batches per hour, you don't need the computer. It's easy enough to crack it through get it consistent and do all the other stuff. I am not against computerising it, but that wasn't really where I wanted to be with it and the aggro and cost of trying to get the Chinese to do that would have been terrible....plus it would have made it almost double the price. It's why I did the power control as a mod for £6 rather than even bother the Chinese with it, as they would have used an excuse to add 200 usd to the price.

I wanted a basic, good roaster at an unbelievable price...and I think it's there. If people want to modify it it's pretty easy for them to do and can even modify the SSR power controller and have that computer controlled. In fact I always wonder about a mod that used a webcam/laptop or mobile on the temp display to grab information and then either verbally tell you what to do and when or control the roaster directly. I do think starting a business though, means get roasting, learn to feel the roast properly...perhaps automation one day. However if you are roasting 7 hours per day more than 3 days per week, it's time to think about a 5kg roaster and at that point automation won't seem so important....when your up to a 25kg roaster, it really won't seem important at all because at those larger batch sizes, automation is as much use to artisan roasting as as rally tyres on an articulated lorry.


----------



## Hasi

Agree! And with 75kgs of greens that went through my Amazon I know you did a brilliant job, indeed.

Maybe I'm just trying to find an excuse to use a computer


----------



## Hasi

btw: Roastlogger has an OCR feature to capture controller temperatures.

http://roastlogger.co.uk/coffee/roastlogger/dmmdetails.html

According to numerous reports on the interwebz it seems to work ok. Though I haven't tried it myself, yet.


----------



## Batian

I am in sympathy with Davec's argument on this.

If I may throw another hat into the ring...

Those of us using smaller roasters, (for debates sake, smaller meaning up to 5kg) whether commercially or for our own pleasure, we are likely to be roasting higher quality coffees for a different market, than those roasting in bigger quantities.

I would suggest that those quality coffees have a wider quality window in them which allows differences in the roast from batch to batch to be not only acceptable, but at times, actually favourable.

Whereas with commodity grade coffee the window of acceptable flavours is much narrower. So it is easy to have a coffee that is 'OK', to go 'rubbish' with the slightest change in the roast profile. The customers who use these coffees are 'comfortable' with it, and want something that tastes exactly the same as the last time and place they drank it?

Totally different to my 'customers' and I.

Think McDonalds burgers, cigarettes or back to the days of instant coffee...people get used to a brand and anything else is yuck!

So I suggest roasting bulk commodity coffees can actually benefit from computerisation. But we are not in that game.

This does not mean I am a totally against 'pooters' and small batch roasting. I would find a system that accurately recorded the temperatures against time when roasting extremely useful. But it would be an addition to, and a back up to my note taking.

I find the work rate in the last two thirds of a roast far to heavy to have the time to be pfaffing around punching things into a computer!

The suggestion that it leaves more of the time to be doing other things like weighing bagging etc is, I feel, clutching at straws to make the argument for the gadgets. But the solution is to purchase a computerised weighing and bagging machine!

Pre roasting and during the warm up cycle, I have weighed out the required beans and labelled each batch, decided the order of roast and started each coffees roast log, along with doing the bag labels.

I cannot devote the attention to doing other jobs (except perhaps in the first few minutes) if I have beans in the roaster. And I can do those jobs so much easier after I have finished roasting during the 'cool down'.. It just means having a system so different batches do not get misidentified.


----------



## Hasi

I wouldn't be into automatisation of controls, just wondering about logging meaningful data without paperwork.

Going back to learn something, handle complaints properly, and repeat a roast through profiling - those simply were my thoughts/concerns when outlining a strategy of self-employment next to a full-time job and a family of five









While I can totally appreciate the Amazon workflow the way I set it up now, it's wonderful to discuss, read your viewpoints and especially Dave's intention during development. Thanks guys!

To give you some background, just in case you wanna know.

For our future business, I've conducted a little 'study' during the past months: talked to and sampled a number of potential customers multiple times (B2C as well as B2B), learning about their habits, taste and needs. Turns out many request consistency, because they're not necessarily into frequently adjusting grind settings.

Our goal will be to provide fresh and decent coffees to our rural area, no fancy-pants hipsters. I doubt I will ever touch a Geisha or Blue Mountain in a commercial context, but rather stay basic and affordable. Here is where I make out the biggest need: closing the gap between crap and luxury. I don't know many real coffee enthusiasts, folk around usually buying solid supermarket beans. An upgrade to their daily routine carried out by a local roaster - somebody tangible they know, not an international corporation - that's our starting point and part of the company's orientation. It obviously makes for a different selection of greens, looking into blending and keeping a closer eye on costs while maintaining a maximum quality level.

A friendly roaster lately purchased an automatic bagging machine to better manage his 5+ tons of annual output. It does weigh and fill 2x 500g at a time, costs 15k EUR before tax... not really an alternative for me at the moment


----------



## Batian

Hasi said:


> To give you some background, just in case you wanna know.
> 
> For our future business, I've conducted a little 'study' during the past months: talked to and sampled a number of potential customers multiple times (B2C as well as B2B), learning about their habits, taste and needs. Turns out many request consistency, because they're not necessarily into frequently adjusting grind settings.
> 
> Our goal will be to provide fresh and decent coffees to our rural area, no fancy-pants hipsters. I doubt I will ever touch a Geisha or Blue Mountain in a commercial context, but rather stay basic and affordable. Here is where I make out the biggest need: closing the gap between crap and luxury. I don't know many real coffee enthusiasts, folk around usually buying solid supermarket beans. An upgrade to their daily routine carried out by a local roaster - somebody tangible they know, not an international corporation - that's our starting point and part of the company's orientation. It obviously makes for a different selection of greens, looking into blending and keeping a closer eye on costs while maintaining a maximum quality level.


So if your existing customer base seeks consistency to avoid re setting grinders and brews, is the logical (commercial) sense to use the software (or not) and buy larger quantities of cheaper coffee, say sub to low 80's rather than higher grade coffees for your main customer base?

And then roast of a kilo of the good stuff for you and your more refined customers!









(Who said I was a coffee snob?







)

I cant help wondering if it would have been easier to buy an off the shelf roaster that is already designed to do the job you are asking? It's a bit like buying a Ford Escort 1100 L and souping it up to perform like an RS 2000 Cosworth, rally tuned!

Rings bells with another current thread on here?


----------



## DavecUK

The only problem about grind settings and consistency....it's not really achievable. it will depend on too many factors to be of use to an individual.


humidity in kitchen

how old is the coffee

how did the customer store it

was it frozen

voltage variations while roasting

ambient conditions in roastery

airflow changes (wind on vent etc..)

Crop variations

green coffee aging

moisture levels in storage area


The slight differences in manual vs automatic roasting won't really give any more variation to worry about and should be just as consistent. If automatic roasting was a real thing, there would be a huge end to end business in selling computerised roasters and profiles to go with the specific coffees the wholesaler sells. But there isn't.

In reality (whatever you may get told), *automation is ultimately to help the roaster* and not the customer, it never was done to make things better for the customer (and it doesn't). It allows roasters to employ unskilled people and produce a consistent reasonable product in large quantities. In a sense a bit like a Mc Donalds, you always know what your going top get the quality is consistent, it's never terrible. Probably not the ideal example I know.


----------



## Hasi

Batian said:


> So if your existing customer base seeks consistency to avoid re setting grinders and brews, is the logical (commercial) sense to use the software (or not) and buy larger quantities of cheaper coffee, say sub to low 80's rather than higher grade coffees for your main customer base?
> 
> And then roast of a kilo of the good stuff for you and your more refined customers!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Who said I was a coffee snob?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


Totally! It's logical to balance retail price with profits and expectations. Most people around here will feed their bean to cup machine.

In addition, having something more to offer, like proper (and changing?) single origins, as you put it







yes, definitely! I'd count myself in as a coffee snob, as well. But business-wise, we can only wait and see which customers we'll be able to reach, then adjust if needed. I like a bottom-up approach better. Setting the bar too high, initially, might be a dangerous adventure when you have to finance your investment...?



Batian said:


> I cant help wondering if it would have been easier to buy an off the shelf roaster that is already designed to do the job you are asking? It's a bit like buying a Ford Escort 1100 L and souping it up to perform like an RS 2000 Cosworth, rally tuned!
> 
> Rings bells with another current thread on here?


No, I'm perfectly fine with the Amazon. As I don't plan to roast by clicking a button but take a handcrafted approach, it definitely is the best choice to set sail IMHO







Again, I'm just using alternative probes so it connects to logging software, taking that task away from me.









Above, I was suggesting to add this feature as an upgrade so others can benefit as well. Then tried to explain where it came from







Nothing more!



DavecUK said:


> The only problem about grind settings and consistency....it's not really achievable. it will depend on too many factors to be of use to an individual.
> 
> 
> humidity in kitchen
> 
> how old is the coffee
> 
> how did the customer store it
> 
> was it frozen
> 
> voltage variations while roasting
> 
> ambient conditions in roastery
> 
> airflow changes (wind on vent etc..)
> 
> Crop variations
> 
> green coffee aging
> 
> moisture levels in storage area
> 
> 
> The slight differences in manual vs automatic roasting won't really give any more variation to worry about and should be just as consistent.


Thanks Dave!

Most controllable factors (ambient temp, humidity, ventilation...) I can include in my layout/equipment of the work space and storage. Also, I believe there's nothing wrong with educating customers as to how they get the best out of their purchase (storing, buying right amounts, using up in time...).


----------



## scottybourn

Hi there , just a quick one I'm out the country at the mo and trying to find out the hole sizes of the temperature probes pots on the front of the Rosster ? Thanks in advance


----------



## Hasi

Scotty, it should be M12 at the front - so 10.1something mm core hole.

I'm in the garage later on and can unscrew and take measurements


----------



## scottybourn

Hasi said:


> Scotty, it should be M12 at the front - so 10.1something mm core hole.
> 
> I'm in the garage later on and can unscrew and take measurements


ah cheers mate I'm just trying to get Darren from there thermocouple to order me one with a couple potted rtd100


----------



## Hasi

scottybourn said:


> ah cheers mate I'm just trying to get Darren from there thermocouple to order me one with a couple potted rtd100


left and right hole are 12.4-12.5mm so 1/2in

central hole (analog thermometer) has a step in it, starts wide with a 14.2mm thread, then narrows down to approx 7-8mm (my caliper doesn't reach in, but inserting 6mm probe leaves plenty room)

Enjoy!


----------



## Dotix

@scottybourn

If helps, bellow is a picture of Dalian adapter vs 1/4 BSPP compression fitting.

I would say it is a M12 - I don't have the caliper handy.


----------



## scottybourn

ah brilliant thank you


----------



## Hasi

Dotix said:


> @scottybourn
> 
> If helps, bellow is a picture of Dalian adapter vs 1/4 BSPP compression fitting.
> 
> I would say it is a M12 - I don't have the caliper handy.
> 
> View attachment 36227


Sorry to interrupt, but my measurements were accurate. Definitely not an M12 by the figures provided. Quickly doublechecked again and surprisingly they haven't changed.

Photo shows our little Dalian piece next to an M12 thread:


----------



## Dotix

@Hasi - no problem, that's why I said it looks like.

Any idea what is it then?

Till now we know that it is neither 1/4 nor M12.


----------



## Hasi

At around 12.4mm female minor, it could well be an M14x1.5:

https://www.newmantools.com/tech/threadmf.htm

Although, I couldn't find at home a suitable thread to prove this concept...









PS: further more, thread height on the Dalian piece doesn't look like a 1.5... really no clue. Chinese standardisation?!


----------



## frederic

scottybourn said:


> Hi there , just a quick one I'm out the country at the mo and trying to find out the hole sizes of the temperature probes pots on the front of the Rosster ? Thanks in advance


Hi

I can confirm it is M14x1.5 - I have tested it with a thread cutter.

(and in case this is of interest ... the front plate of the Dalian is approx. 13mm thick) ...

I hope this helps


----------



## Twobrotherscoffeeco

Hi Guys , I'm hoping somebody could help me out with a problem I'm having with the Dalian!!

I had the Dalian Amazon delivered yesterday and have done 3 roasts so far !

Each roast i loaded 1kg of green beans into the bean hopper ( after warming her up etc etc )

The problem I'm having is that when i lift the plunger to charge the roaster with green beans around 50% are dropping straight through and I'm finding them in the hatch for cleaning the cooling tray ?? Even more beans drop through when i move the smoke damper and I'm left with around 460g of roasted beans and a lot of green and some slightly browned beans sitting under the cooling tray area which is of course a PROBLEM !!! I'm not doing another roast until i find out either what the problem is or find out that its me that is the problem ( which is a possibility ) I just don't understand how they are getting out of the perforated roasting drum !! Any help or advice would be hugely appreciated as you can imagine its very frustrating !!!

Thank in advance

Sean


----------



## Dotix

Looks like you have a significant gap between the drum and front plate of the roaster.

Can you post a picture with open door?

I suggest to test some beans with cold roaster to check where is the "leakage".

In any way, do not roast further until the issue is fixed since beans left inside could cause fire!


----------



## Dotix

You could also check the back side, try to make a photo inside the drum through the front door.

Obviously the roaster needs to be cold and disconnected from mains to be on the safe side.


----------



## DavecUK

Just for people following, this it's solved. They also been contacting me privately and last Saturday I told them how to check for the cause of the problem and adjust the drum/front plate clearance correctly.


----------



## RDC8

At the risk of announcing that I have discovered the blindingly obvious, I thought I would share lessons

from yesterday's roasting experience. Up until yesterday I had never roasted a pulped natural; all my

greens have so far been washed. However, I had recently taken delivery of some pulped

natural Brazilian. I did a bit of searching the interweb to see if other rosters had posted their

tips/observations/ experiences. The consensus seemed to be "low and slow" ie lower the charge temp,

slow down the length of the roast, and draw out the time after 1 st crack as much as possible. So to

prepare for the roast I lowered the Roasting Temp controller by 10 degrees from 187c to 177c and

waited for the roaster to cool sufficiently (this wasn't the first roast of the session!) So then I had

the quandary of not being certain at what temperature 1 st crack would occur. Not wanting to stall the

roast, I allowed a slowish RoR from the turning point of around 5 degrees per minute. At 177c first

crack hadn't begun so I took the view that more heat was needed, so increased the temp controller by 2

degrees. I continued to increase the controller by 2 degree each time the new max temp was reached,

until finally 1st crack started at 182c. Using the air-flow dampers I was able to lower the RoR over the

next two minutes and dropped the roast at 187c - for a total weight loss of 16.5% (I normally aim for no

more than 17.5% loss). So &#8230; my learning point was this: when roasting a new coffee for the first time,

start with a lower charge temp and adjust the temp controller "on the fly" to find the 1 st crack temp. Two

questions I am still pondering 1) once 1 st crack is reached and the temp controller shuts off the power,

should I slow down the airflow to preserve heat in the roast chamber? And 2) why would the bean

temperature continue to rise for the next two minutes if there is no power to the heating elements? Is it

the effect of the exothermic reaction playing out?

Final Note: Really happy with the look of that roast - but will leave it to settle for a week before trying!


----------



## Hasi

Thanks for sharing mate!

I haven't been that careful with my first tries, so far. Rather been a sacrifice tbh 

I always allow for more airflow through the roast chamber as of 1C and beyond, because (and that holds true especially for natural processing methods due to sn increased chaff occurrence) I believe the hotter the contents the more fumes can add unfavourable taste notes like smoky, charred and all that jazz. So proper venting has become my pet passion for that reason alone.

When I switched to thinner, more responsive temp probes I discovered even more of a necessity to accurately manage airflow approaching 1C until ending the roast. As Scott Rao describes, you might bake your roast around 1C - I figured for my Amazon 1kg I need to boost energy input 1min before 1C (dimmer mod from 80/90% to full throttle) and subsequently open SD from 3 or 4 to 7 or 8 throughout the duration of 1C. Just to maintain an ever positive RoR without visible drops in the (Artisan) diagram.

Not claiming absolute truth, though. Just reporting my observations


----------



## Dotix

@ Hasi - could you post a roast diagram as well?

What I did noticed on mine is that increasing the air flow is also increasing the heat transfer between heating element and the beans.

Depending on the how you look at, for a short time, increasing airflow raise the ROR then it goes down ending back on initial curve(a bit lower actually) - kind of S curve.


----------



## Hasi

Dotix said:


> @ Hasi - could you post a roast diagram as well?
> 
> What I did noticed on mine is that increasing the air flow is also increasing the heat transfer between heating element and the beans.
> 
> Depending on the how you look at, for a short time, increasing airflow raise the ROR then it goes down ending back on initial curve(a bit lower actually) - kind of S curve.












jagged curves at the bottom are:

blue - heat

grey - CA

purple - SD

I'll receive proper bashment from Dave in a minute, but I've worked out a nice routine using both flaps on my Amazon to optimally balance RoR around 1C.

You're totally right about that sudden temp change. I've observed the same. Obviously, it becomes more visible the thinner the probes.

Happens around 1:45 in above diagram when I moved SD from 0 to 1. I'm actually doing it very slowly - and therefore starting maybe a bit early - to minimise the effect. However, it's still there... 

What occurs physically, is that outside the drum the heat elements keep surrounding air at very high temperatures. When you open SD, this hot air will suddenly be dragged into the drum: metal sheaths will respond quicker to that change than organic matter, so the reading may be off a little.

In the end of the day, keeping track of the ongoings is fine, but roasting does not happen at the computer screen. One of the more fascinating and satisfying things about operating my machine I find in using the whole body in a very attentive, alert manner. Up on my feet, working my arms, touching, watching, hearing, smelling, tasing, thinking ahead, checking back. All that matters far more than staring at a screen and reacting to data output.

PS: still, feel free to praise my precise retrace of the underlying profile curves


----------



## RDC8

Thanks for sharing. What beans were you roasting (origin/processing method)?

I'm still recording using pen and paper - have been tempted to try hook up a laptop and run artisan have taken that final step ... yet.

I tend to roast a bit quicker than this, hitting FC at between 9 and 11 minutes, and longest roast would be around 14 minutes. I weigh input and output and generally hit a weight loss of between 16% and 17%. Out of interest, where does your CA damper start?

Totally agree with you about being fully immersed in the process - sight, sound, smell, anticipating ... it's a full-on workout!

Happy roasting


----------



## Hasi

As the screen header kinda gives away in parts, it's a La Berlina Estate Washed Typica from Boquete, Panama.

My CA starts at 8 for the first roast, then starts at 6 for all subsequent sets 

Enjoy!

PS: btw., just coming off a very strange session - after a power outage due to storm Fabienne earlier this week the Artisan reading was off some +40C. It normalised during second roast but I don't have a clue how that went...


----------



## DavecUK

Well I keep experimenting with packaging.....no valve packaging.

There have been a few threads on the business support forum, but this is probably of more interest to home roasters and those who sell to friends and at markets. It's an attempt at minimal packaging. Effectively taking just the layer inside those craft type bags. The packaging is thin but seems very strong. This is the first time I have used it...I roasted about 6kg yesterday and will hopefully be able to keep some for a whiole and see how puffed up and tense they get. They are quite a bit larger than the Kraft foil lined ones I was using and even with 430g of coffee in (which fits easily) have plenty of room for expansion. The Kraft ones couldn't hold any more than 300g. They seal at a lower heat setting, probably because of the lack of a paper outer, makes it little bit faster.

Pricing is good as they only cost 9p per bag....so cheaper than the Kraft ones and they hold a label better.


----------



## Jony

Nice, you got my Address there,haha


----------



## DavecUK

Jony said:


> Nice, you got my Address there,haha


Would have deleted it after passing it on to ACS....because I don't feel right keeping stuff like that....old fashioned I guess. I would imagine a lot of it will be gone in a few days.


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> Would have deleted it after passing it on to ACS....because I don't feel right keeping stuff like that....old fashioned I guess. I would imagine a lot of it will be gone in a few days.


Dave, would you please also post an image of a "fully grown" balloon, erh.. bag?


----------



## Beeroclock

DavecUK said:


> Well I keep experimenting with packaging.....no valve packaging.
> 
> There have been a few threads on the business support forum, but this is probably of more interest to home roasters and those who sell to friends and at markets. It's an attempt at minimal packaging. Effectively taking just the layer inside those craft type bags. The packaging is thin but seems very strong. This is the first time I have used it...I roasted about 6kg yesterday and will hopefully be able to keep some for a whiole and see how puffed up and tense they get. They are quite a bit larger than the Kraft foil lined ones I was using and even with 430g of coffee in (which fits easily) have plenty of room for expansion. The Kraft ones couldn't hold any more than 300g. They seal at a lower heat setting, probably because of the lack of a paper outer, makes it little bit faster.
> 
> Pricing is good as they only cost 9p per bag....so cheaper than the Kraft ones and they hold a label better.


Where did you source these Dave?


----------



## Ignas

Hasi said:


> btw: Roastlogger has an OCR feature to capture controller temperatures.
> 
> http://roastlogger.co.uk/coffee/roastlogger/dmmdetails.html
> 
> According to numerous reports on the interwebz it seems to work ok. Though I haven't tried it myself, yet.


First of all thank you for sharing all of your experiences here guys. I have found loads of useful information here for the people who are first timers.

Half of it I have already learned, sadly in a hard way by burning and dumping my beans in to the bin.

I have tried myself OCR and find out that is more designed for HOTTOP devices. Obviously, you can get to work with yours Dalian to, but then is very important to have perfect lighting (no shades or sparkles on the controller), otherwise, information may be wrongly transferred to your device. Also the small dot after the numbers (on the controller again) sometimes disturbs getting clear information.

To be completely honest, tried - did not liked. If you was successful, would be more than happy to hear your opinion


----------



## Darren Howie

Hi Dave,

I'm very new to roasting and have purchased a 1kg Amazon. My beans are coming out like toads rather than smooth like frogs, as they were before. I've tried 4 different bean types and it just doesn't feel like its roasting properly. There are few reasons why I think this may be.

We moved the roaster and now it makes what sounds like a rubbing noise, especially when it reaches hotter temps. The beans I used this morning were left outside and in a tool shed that gets very hot in sun. Also, we have set it up on balcony outside, which I'm not sure is recommend. Can you roast outside? My airflow has always operated lover than the roast temp so unsure if that's related.

I noticed oo a previous thread from a while back they you run sessions, I'd be more than happy to tap into these if you still do them.

Shalom

Darren


----------



## Darren Howie

Hi Dave,

I'm very new to roasting and have purchased a 1kg Amazon. My beans are coming out like toads rather than smooth like frogs, as they were before. I've tried 4 different bean types and it just doesn't feel like its roasting properly. There are few reasons why I think this may be.

We moved the roaster and now it makes what sounds like a rubbing noise, especially when it reaches hotter temps. The beans I used this morning were left outside and in a tool shed that gets very hot in sun. Also, we have set it up on balcony outside, which I'm not sure is recommend. Can you roast outside? My airflow has always operated lover than the roast temp so unsure if that's related.

I noticed oo a previous thread from a while back they you run sessions, I'd be more than happy to tap into these if you still do them.

Shalom

Darren


----------



## johnealey

@DavecUK will be along in a bit but you may need a few more posts under your belt to be able to receive PM's(?) or reply to them(?).

If you purchased your Amazon from Bella Barista you should have a guide written by Dave that should help you along a bit and having received help from Dave in the past (unrelated but still coffee related, as it turns out, non purchase) is extremely knowledgeable so you will gain a big jump in learning by training with him, worth every penny.

To start with though, please bring your beans indoors and keep somewhere relatively temperature stable (under the bed, cupboard under stairs, bottom of wardrobe not subject to direct sunlight) as beans don't react very well to massive changes in temperature / humidity even as greens!

Best of luck with your other issues and getting on with roasting in the Amazon.

John


----------



## DavecUK

Darren Howie said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I'm very new to roasting and have purchased a 1kg Amazon. My beans are coming out like toads rather than smooth like frogs, as they were before. I've tried 4 different bean types and it just doesn't feel like its roasting properly. There are few reasons why I think this may be.
> 
> We moved the roaster and now it makes what sounds like a rubbing noise, especially when it reaches hotter temps. The beans I used this morning were left outside and in a tool shed that gets very hot in sun. Also, we have set it up on balcony outside, which I'm not sure is recommend. Can you roast outside? My airflow has always operated lover than the roast temp so unsure if that's related.
> 
> I noticed oo a previous thread from a while back they you run sessions, I'd be more than happy to tap into these if you still do them.
> 
> Shalom
> 
> Darren


Could be a lot of things changed when you moved the roaster....where are you actually based?

I'll list a few of the many variables which may have changed things:

Balcony airflow/draughts

Balcony direction, time of sun on roaster

Power and length of wiring

Length of exhaust duct

Lighting

Noise

Tilt of roaster, or has it been jarred

etc..

The fact your airflow is always lower than the roast temp is confusing and the information is a bit limited...


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> The fact your airflow is always lower than the roast temp is confusing and the information is a bit limited...


In addition to the above, maybe it would help to know the following:

What damper positions had been used?

Had the exhaust duct even been attached?

Had the plunger been put back in place after filling?

Again, if it's a Bella Barista variant, did the manual written by Dave been ship with it? (mine went missing back then)


----------



## Choffter

Hi all, I have just joined this forum and have also put an order down for the Amazon Dalian with BB. I am new to roasting and look forward to learning the skills and techniques, to hopefully be able to roast a decent batch of coffee. I will share my experiences as I go, but if anyone has any question, give me a shout.


----------



## Jony

Last paragraph, should be the other way round. Davec could help you if you require extra help like a course. Where are you based.


----------



## Choffter

Jony said:


> Last paragraph, should be the other way round. Davec could help you if you require extra help like a course. Where are you based.


Thanks Jony, BB did mention there is great knowledge and support on this forum. I'm based in central Scotland so not very handy!


----------



## DavecUK

Jony said:


> Last paragraph, should be the other way round. Davec could help you if you require extra help like a course. Where are you based.


He is a long way away from me in Sunny Scotland.....I have had people journey overnight and stay in a local B&B, but never as far as Scotland. Air travel, getting from airport to me even if I pick them up from Heathrow...nightmare for them I would think and expensive once the travel costs are factored in.


----------



## Choffter

DavecUK said:


> He is a long way away from me in Sunny Scotland.....I have had people journey overnight and stay in a local B&B, but never as far as Scotland. Air travel, getting from airport to me even if I pick them up from Heathrow...nightmare for them I would think and expensive once the travel costs are factored in.


Unfortunately it is a bit far Dave as I have seen you can be persuaded to run a course, and BB did mention your knowledge of roasting and the Dalian roaster.


----------



## Choffter

I should be receiving the Amazon Dalian roaster soon once I agree shipping to my location from BB. I'm also looking to add a grinder to the order so need to choose that too. Exciting.


----------



## Choffter

Hi all, looking for a bit of advice before my Amazon Dalian gets here.

Can anyone recommend a length of table to place the roaster on. The roaster itself is 700mm long. Do you need a decent amount of space either side?

Secondly, I will be looking to buy an extinguisher. Is CO2 the way to go? Any advice on this?

Also, if anyone has any additional advice in terms of purchases at this stage, I'd be really grateful. As mentioned, I am a novice and looking to learn this slowly and properly.


----------



## Jony

Not sure I know Powder is good, but not sure its good for leaving residue on stuff. You haven't read up on fire safety then have you.


----------



## DavecUK

Choffter said:


> Hi all, looking for a bit of advice before my Amazon Dalian gets here.
> 
> Can anyone recommend a length of table to place the roaster on. The roaster itself is 700mm long. Do you need a decent amount of space either side?
> 
> Secondly, I will be looking to buy an extinguisher. Is CO2 the way to go? Any advice on this?
> 
> Also, if anyone has any additional advice in terms of purchases at this stage, I'd be really grateful. As mentioned, I am a novice and looking to learn this slowly and properly.


 Wait and read my guide, it will tell you everything you need to know.


----------



## Choffter

That's great Dave cheers. I wasn't sure how detailed it go so will hold fire until it's here.


----------



## Densven

Hi Choffter, I have mine on a 1m x 610mm wide trolley and it sits on the entire space. This leaves no room to work around the roaster so if you have a computer or want to make notes as you roast, you will need more room or a separate table as I have.

Advice from Dave is the best, however having worked on his roaster and mine, his is an entirely different beast to mine, so needs to be taken into consideration. Best thing is to make a lot of notes in the begining and taste your coffee!! Good luck, it's very satisfying when you get it right and it tastes amazing.


----------



## johnealey

+1 on Dave's advice (CO2 not powder by the way. Powder may put it out but will also render your roaster pretty much useless without an every nook and cranny take apart and scrub clean)

May want to think of a std size kitchen worktop and 2 lower cabinets from somewhere like the Swedish blue and yellow shop if wanting something more solid that does not cost the earth (just watch the height of any legs you also buy...) is what we ended up doing in the log cabin, just the cabinet "boxes" no doors though.

Hope of help

John


----------



## ashcroc

A fire blanket could come in handy too (again, no cleanup). Though that may depend on your accessability to where the fire is.


----------



## Choffter

Densven said:


> Hi Choffter, I have mine on a 1m x 610mm wide trolley and it sits on the entire space. This leaves no room to work around the roaster so if you have a computer or want to make notes as you roast, you will need more room or a separate table as I have.
> Advice from Dave is the best, however having worked on his roaster and mine, his is an entirely different beast to mine, so needs to be taken into consideration. Best thing is to make a lot of notes in the begining and taste your coffee!! Good luck, it's very satisfying when you get it right and it tastes amazing.


Thanks for the advice Densven!


----------



## Choffter

ashcroc said:


> A fire blanket could come in handy too (again, no cleanup). Though that may depend on your accessability to where the fire is.


That's a good idea as a back up ashcroc


----------



## Choffter

johnealey said:


> +1 on Dave's advice (CO2 not powder by the way. Powder may put it out but will also render your roaster pretty much useless without an every nook and cranny take apart and scrub clean)
> May want to think of a std size kitchen worktop and 2 lower cabinets from somewhere like the Swedish blue and yellow shop if wanting something more solid that does not cost the earth (just watch the height of any legs you also buy...) is what we ended up doing in the log cabin, just the cabinet "boxes" no doors though.
> Hope of help
> John


Cheers for the advice johnealey. I'll wait for the roaster arriving with the guide and see what will work. I'm happy to save a few quid if it does the same job.


----------



## Choffter

Well it's here. A very pretty machine. I have read through the various guides which accompany it and they are VERY comprehensive. Have to purchase some of the recommended equipment before setting up the roaster.


----------



## tonescout

Hello everyone,

I visited BB yesterday and did a trial roast on the Dalia, which I am looking to purchase. I am based in West Sussex, and would also be interested in a course from Dave C.

I would like to add Artisan to monitor the roast (not to manage it) and any experience on achieving this from members would be great.

Rich


----------



## MildredM

tonescout said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I visited BB yesterday and did a trial roast on the Dalia, which I am looking to purchase. I am based in West Sussex, and would also be interested in a course from Dave C.
> 
> I would like to add Artisan to monitor the roast (not to manage it) and any experience on achieving this from members would be great.
> 
> Rich


 @DavecUK


----------



## DavecUK

Just spotted this...sorry can't really help with Artisan, I don't use it.


----------



## Choffter

So I had my first experience with the Dalian last night. All went well with the process. The roast was very fast though, finishing in 11:30. And even then it is far too dark for me.

The temperature of the roaster was always about 5
Degrees above the recommended temps. I decided to stick with the example profile. I think I will let more cool air in at the next roast to try and slow down the process.

I also have a question about the cooling arm if anyone knows: I turned the cooling try on and then dumped the beans. Does this automatically draw air through the beans? It seemed to take a while to cool them down so wonder if any other settings need to be engaged to cool them down.

Here is the final roast. Comments and suggestions welcomed!!









I have also attached a picture of my beans and a lighter roast done by a local roaster for comparison.









All in all I'm very happy with the machine after the first roast, and know it takes kilos and kilos to get decent coffee coming out. The machine is fairly quiet, drum and fan.

Oh and another question, should I be getting steam from the back vents of the drum during the initial stages of the roast?


----------



## johnealey

Are you able to measure the wattage being drawn when roasting and also the voltage as this may assist in any comments to point you in the right direction?

For example: my voltage is on the high side, regularly 247v and will draw 2800w average, from his information was able to change some parameters of cooling / smoke damper positions and then look at roast and air temp max temps on the PID's (there is a controller mod you can do to the Dalian similar to the gene but lets not get ahead of ourselves)

First roast may also be picking up any oils / greases used in manufacture, pretty sure @DavecUK guide suggests binning this one.

On the steam bit, I recall asking exactly the same question and Dave pointed out to me that I had the smoke damper closed for too long so where else would any steam / smoke go!

Reluctant to advise any changes yet until you know the above as you could easily go the other way and bake your beans (euugh!)

John


----------



## johnealey

As to the cooling arm in addition to the above @Choffter, no turning the arm on will not increase the flow of air, you need to pull out the cooling air (CA) damper arm and reduce the amount air going through the drum by reducing the Smoke damper (SD) arm. The two are interconnected in terms of airflow, so too much SD restricts the amount of air available to the cooling tray. I think Dave has described it as thinking as gears i.e. the closer in you are to the body of the roaster the more "speed", flow range really, available to the other (there is a good diagram explaining this in the handbook)

You, if not already, need a means to record your roast and can drop you a word doc example over if it helps (PM me) as will be the most frequently asked questions such as what temps, when, what SD setting, what CA setting,, Roast and air temps etc and times.

Hope of help, it does take a little while as they all seem to roast a little differently dependant on voltage locally and wattage of heating element plus ambient etc ( the controller mod looks to level this out, haven't done it yet and about 300kgs )

John


----------



## Hasi

tonescout said:


> Hello everyone,
> I visited BB yesterday and did a trial roast on the Dalia, which I am looking to purchase. I am based in West Sussex, and would also be interested in a course from Dave C.
> I would like to add Artisan to monitor the roast (not to manage it) and any experience on achieving this from members would be great.
> Rich


You will need special temp probes to keep internal controllers and their safety mechanisms intact. thermosense.co.uk or similar can supply you with custom dual PT-100 probes to your specifications (take measurements with a caliper). Make sure to get thinner sheaths (3-4mm) while keeping length the same (or RT probe will collide with drum shovels).

Then get a USB data logger (I use myPCLab, comnected to Artisan via Modbus). Suitable drivers may be a problem, just research before buying!
Some data loggers have floating comma or other strange output standards, for instance myPCLab writes 1000 for 100C. You'll need to configure Artisan accordingly, which can be a pain.

If you have the hardware installed give me a shout in case you need help!


----------



## Choffter

That's really helpful@johnealey I must have missed the point around the cooling arm in the instructions so I'm guessing my batch continued to roast in the cooling tray.

I was given some A4 roast loggers from BB (and 5kg of beans!) but don't have a soft copy so can pm you about that. Much appreciated. I did log the temps which I can share and also the ambient temp (14 deg).

I will buy a power meter and use for the second roast and share my experience again and hopefully the additional info can shed some light on any tweaks required. Thanks again for your input.


----------



## Choffter

Does anyone know if this would be a decent power meter? I'm happy to hear suggestions for decent one that won't cost the earth.


----------



## tonescout

Hasi said:


> You will need special temp probes to keep internal controllers and their safety mechanisms intact. thermosense.co.uk or similar can supply you with custom dual PT-100 probes to your specifications (take measurements with a caliper). Make sure to get thinner sheaths (3-4mm) while keeping length the same (or RT probe will collide with drum shovels).
> 
> Then get a USB data logger (I use myPCLab, comnected to Artisan via Modbus). Suitable drivers may be a problem, just research before buying!
> Some data loggers have floating comma or other strange output standards, for instance myPCLab writes 1000 for 100C. You'll need to configure Artisan accordingly, which can be a pain.
> 
> If you have the hardware installed give me a shout in case you need help!


 Thanks for this - I will advise on my progress.

I assume this means that I am adding additional new probes solely for the purpose of recording into Artisan. ("You will need special temp probes to keep internal controllers and their safety mechanisms intact.")

I sent a PM to you, but it would have been better placed here - does anyone measure the drum negative pressure to help understand the effect of the damper settings on airflow in the roasting drum?


----------



## Choffter

I have a power meter arriving today. With any luck I'll have time to see what power the Toaster is pulling and will post, along with my first roast log, and would welcome any comments on adjustments needed.


----------



## Hasi

tonescout said:


> Thanks for this - I will advise on my progress.
> I assume this means that I am adding additional new probes solely for the purpose of recording into Artisan. ("You will need special temp probes to keep internal controllers and their safety mechanisms intact.")
> I sent a PM to you, but it would have been better placed here - does anyone measure the drum negative pressure to help understand the effect of the damper settings on airflow in the roasting drum?


Correct, dual probes are essentially two probes in one sheath, a dual PT100 will have 6 wires. You reconnect three of them to the respective internal controller and wire the other three to a data logger. Data loggers usually connect via USB to a PC running its drivers and a displaying/recording application such as Artisan, Cropster, etc.


----------



## Hasi

Drum neg. pressure might be interesting, but not necessary to get the hang of your roaster. If you have the opportunity to keep an eye on exhaust fumes (venting out of a window etc.), you can read pretty much from there. Steam in drying phase, smoke towards the end - amount, density and muzzle velocity.

I have mine connected to a venting duct, so I cannot see what exists the exhaust. Still, I manage to roast what I believe to be pretty palatable 

(btw, we might achieve 1000 batches this year - just sayin  - can I get a forum badge for that?!)


----------



## Choffter

So after another roast, it seemed to be more difficult to follow the prescribed numbers in the manual. Seems to start off with a much higher roasting temp and not a big different between that and the air temp.

I have attached my log for anyone to take a look and pass any comments back. Cheers!!


----------



## tonescout

What do the beans look like, and taste like!

Mine delivered on Friday, got a hand to take the box into my roasting lab (wooden cabin...) and have it now on a table with a one man self lift - just to impatient to wait for second pair of hands! actually not THAT heavy.

Will send install pictures, and I will be working on Artisan instrumentation next with Phidgets.

Rich


----------



## DavecUK

Oh, stop using the supplied vent tube with the roaster and get a 100mm one, plus an adaptor to fit the fan outlet (or simply crush the 100mm one down to size at the end as I did).


----------



## Choffter

tonescout said:


> What do the beans look like, and taste like!
> 
> Mine delivered on Friday, got a hand to take the box into my roasting lab (wooden cabin...) and have it now on a table with a one man self lift - just to impatient to wait for second pair of hands! actually not THAT heavy.
> 
> Will send install pictures, and I will be working on Artisan instrumentation next with Phidgets.
> 
> Rich


I did think it was heavy getting it onto the table. Look forward to see your set up.

Have not tasted the beans yet but they look ok. Again a little dark for me so will try for a lighter roast next time.


----------



## Choffter

I think they look ok??


----------



## Choffter

DavecUK said:


> Oh, stop using the supplied vent tube with the roaster and get a 100mm one, plus an adaptor to fit the fan outlet (or simply crush the 100mm one down to size at the end as I did).


Hi @DaveUK I will order a 100mm venting tube. Why is this better? Also, I was wondering if you have a view as to why my roasting temp and air temp are quite close?

My wattage and voltage numbers seems to match yours.


----------



## Hasi

Choffter said:


> Hi @DaveUK I will order a 100mm venting tube. Why is this better? Also, I was wondering if you have a view as to why my roasting temp and air temp are quite close?
> 
> My wattage and voltage numbers seems to match yours.


100mm means less restriction, careful with sharp bends (90deg) though as they make up for 6m of pipe

don't worry about AT at all, ikbthe end of the day these controllers aren't the most accurate ones and will display quite random numbers. Take them relatively and as guides and you'll be fine 

PS: just the other day I had my neighbour over who runs a plant/measuring engineering company. I asked him to take a look at my temp probes (3mm dual PT100) to calibrate readings in Artisan. Seeing the difference now, the same probe reads around 25°C lower on internal controllers!!


----------



## DavecUK

Choffter said:


> Hi @DaveUK I will order a 100mm venting tube. Why is this better? Also, I was wondering if you have a view as to why my roasting temp and air temp are quite close?
> 
> My wattage and voltage numbers seems to match yours.


 Do the tube first, it may answer most of your questions.


----------



## tonescout

Here is my set up in progress, I am likely to use these guys for some professional vent exits in my set up https://www.jacob-uk.com/JACOB_Online_Catalogue_2017.pdf

On installation does anyone bother to seal the joints from roaster to cyclone?

I am putting cyclone on LHS of roaster, and will exit out of wall behind and route up with a rain cap; and you may recognise the bench of Swedish origin.....

I am off on a trip to Vienna tomorrow [might follow some leads here https://europeancoffeetrip.com/coffee-day-in-vienna/ ] any good coffee spot recommendations welcomed ?

Does anyone know why the K-type probe for Artisan is positioned where it is?

Rich


----------



## Choffter

Looking good@tonescout. Something I have noticed is that I find it easier to collect the bean from the cooling tray when there is a drop off the edge of the table. Maybe you have a better bowl for collecting them in but something to bear in mind if you have not considered it?


----------



## PaulL

Choffter, DaveC's guide will no doubt tell you more but I would suggest this is the minimum amount of space you want as you can put scales and container directly under the cooling tray exit hatch and have the net roast weight withouyt further faffing about, stand a phoner in a holder (I always use two timers - phone and wristwatch in case one fails for some reason), stand a drink, roast log etc.). Of course the space some people have around their roaster is even better. Reason for mine is when this was set up (and this pic is probalby 3 years old now) DaveC advised me to use a trolley so worst case in the event of a roast chamber fire I could reach to unplug and wheel it all outside. These days I use a different light DaveC suggested to judge final roast stage colour better.


----------



## Hasi

K-type sits in this exact position because the hole was there. Simples!  Dave might give you the long version, can't properly recall it...
I removed the probe and plugged the hole with a screw.

Re Vienna, drop in at https://www.tasteit.at/ located in the Inner City, Wollzeile. They can surely give you up to date directions where to get decent coffee... not too easy in good old Kaffeehaus town.


----------



## DavecUK

The K type is there because that was the second best place for it, nowhere else was practical. It gives more an average of bean mass and environmental temp and doesn't vary as much as the PT100 probe.


----------



## RDC8

Hi @chofter. Just a few extra thoughts; as you get to know your roaster better as time goes on, keep changing your parameters and experiment to see what happens (but remember to log eveything). From looking at your roast logs, your temp is continuing to increase quite rapidly after FC; which is not generally a good thing. You might want to reduce the temperature setting on the Ewelly controller (the one for Bean Temp) by 5 degrees so that the heating elements cut out sooner.

If you haven't read it yet - see if you can get a copy of a book by Scott Rao "The coffee roasters companion". I have found it to be a useful resource.

Finally, dont forget that fresh coffee needs time to de-gas (the chemical processes are still creating carbon dioxide) - leave it 5-10 days before drinking (experiment and see what seems best for you)

Enjoy the journey and remember to share your journey and ask lots of questions. You will find a ton of helpful advice and information here on the forum.


----------



## Choffter

RDC8 said:


> Hi @chofter. Just a few extra thoughts; as you get to know your roaster better as time goes on, keep changing your parameters and experiment to see what happens (but remember to log eveything). From looking at your roast logs, your temp is continuing to increase quite rapidly after FC; which is not generally a good thing. You might want to reduce the temperature setting on the Ewelly controller (the one for Bean Temp) by 5 degrees so that the heating elements cut out sooner.
> 
> If you haven't read it yet - see if you can get a copy of a book by Scott Rao "The coffee roasters companion". I have found it to be a useful resource.
> 
> Finally, dont forget that fresh coffee needs time to de-gas (the chemical processes are still creating carbon dioxide) - leave it 5-10 days before drinking (experiment and see what seems best for you)
> 
> Enjoy the journey and remember to share your journey and ask lots of questions. You will find a ton of helpful advice and information here on the forum.


Much appreciated@RDC8 I'll make the changes to the outlet vent as Dave suggested and also try reducing the bean temp too. I'll do these independently of each other and try a roast with each / both. I'll be sure to log and keep sharing my findings.

I have the book! Although very short it's ideal for my level. Already learned a lot from it regarding the end to end process.


----------



## tonescout

The Rob Hoos book also interesting. https://hoos.coffee/my-book/

and for a really long read....https://www.roastmagazine.com/bookofroast/

R


----------



## Choffter

tonescout said:


> The Rob Hoos book also interesting. https://hoos.coffee/my-book/
> and for a really long read....https://www.roastmagazine.com/bookofroast/
> 
> R


Good shout@tonescout.


----------



## tonescout

For general interest here is my power monitor, a little more expensive than the Maplin device no idea of it's accuracy by comparison. It is however a convenient set up. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00JIMQP6Y/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

see images, I used the c-clamp sensor on one of the supply lines for the heater (plenty of room to do this neatly inside the rear panel)

I am also chasing the exact specification of the supplied RT100 Thermal sensors so I can source duplex sensors - can anyone help here?

R


----------



## DavecUK

That's a nice little unit, certainly easy to read and probably reasonably accurate. It would be interesting to see how fast it reacts when you fit a power controller. One of the thoughts I have is if there are meters like this that keep a historical record it's could be very useful to monitor the total energy supplied to a roast batch and note that on the roast logs. I may actually start to hunt something down that can connect to the phone via BT or something. I'm running a roasting course soon so might use some of the money towards research, my last lot of cash went towards a spare heating element....I felt uncomfortable not having one in case I was training and the element failed the day before.


----------



## tonescout

I wanted to test the principle with this, as I will be using the same for my Artisan logging set up:

https://www.phidgets.com/?tier=3&catid=16&pcid=14&prodid=376

I will then put this one on my house for it's normal purpose.

Image shows sensor install with this,

I will be fitting a power controller and let you know!

This unit ok do you think, the original link does not work in eBay anymore on your guide? looks about the same
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AC-220V-5000W-Regulator-SCR-High-Power-Motor-Electronic-Voltage-Regulator-Switch/143182507262?hash=item215657acfe:g:-lsAAOSwndBclMAP

R


----------



## DavecUK

That's probably the one, it just needs a few eyes and 4 legs.....

ooh, the vents in the floor are new, mine doesn't have them.


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> That's probably the one, it just needs a few eyes and 4 legs.....
> 
> ooh, the vents in the floor are new, mine doesn't have them.


oh mine came with the vents, as well - that was Jan 2018 delivery!

Handy because you can use zip ties everywhere. But a bit of a hassle to clean up chaff from inside AND underneath...


----------



## Paolo5

I am just about to fit a 4" flu to my Dalian. I bought a 4 metre length of tubing.

Is there an optimal length and orientation in its positioning?

Until now, I have just popped the OE flu through a gap in a sliding window and the flu remains in a vertical position whilst roasting.

Will I notice any difference in roast times/responsiveness etc. with the larger diameter flu?


----------



## DavecUK

Yes of course.


----------



## Paolo5

What differences should I expect, Dave?


----------



## tonescout

Is there a preferred design withstanding individual circumstances.

horizontal or/then vertical

diameter increasing from 80?

length?

etc, or is it just try and see?

R


----------



## Hasi

Keep ducting as straight and short as possible.
It's all down to resistance - less of that means more bandwidth to control airflow with dampers


----------



## Paolo5

Hasi said:


> Keep ducting as straight and short as possible.
> It's all down to resistance - less of that means more bandwidth to control airflow with dampers


 Many thanks, Hasi.

That's what I thought but it is great to have another opinion. I will roast a few batches with the new flu on Thursday and see for myself what differences it makes.


----------



## Choffter

Paolo5 said:


> Many thanks, Hasi.
> That's what I thought but it is great to have another opinion. I will roast a few batches with the new flu on Thursday and see for myself what differences it makes.


Would be good if you could post your findings@Paolo5. I will also be changing the flu on the back of Daves recommendation and interested to see the results.


----------



## Paolo5

I will see what I can do.


----------



## tonescout

quick question on roaster noise, I roasted another batch today - but waiting until my instrumentation to come before attempting to learn the art....

My roaster now seems to make some sort of ticking/sort of random noises a alongside the belt pulley noise - tried to record it but not really captured. Is this normal?

R


----------



## PaulL

Possibly, expansion of metals or coming from drum area whilst it warms up?


----------



## tonescout

Hasi said:


> You will need special temp probes to keep internal controllers and their safety mechanisms intact. thermosense.co.uk or similar can supply you with custom dual PT-100 probes to your specifications (take measurements with a caliper). Make sure to get thinner sheaths (3-4mm) while keeping length the same (or RT probe will collide with drum shovels).
> 
> Then get a USB data logger (I use myPCLab, comnected to Artisan via Modbus). Suitable drivers may be a problem, just research before buying!
> Some data loggers have floating comma or other strange output standards, for instance myPCLab writes 1000 for 100C. You'll need to configure Artisan accordingly, which can be a pain.
> 
> If you have the hardware installed give me a shout in case you need help!


 Hey quick follow up on the probes, the front bean probe is secured by sliding in and a side grub screw and is easy to determine the size of (40mm protruding) but the rear seems to be screwed in directly - before I turn and find out otherwise, do you recall how you removed this for the swap out?

Image attached. Thanks,

Rich


----------



## DavecUK

Don't bother with that one, it's only the one on the front you need to worry about!


----------



## Hasi

tonescout said:


> Hey quick follow up on the probes, the front bean probe is secured by sliding in and a side grub screw and is easy to determine the size of (40mm protruding) but the rear seems to be screwed in directly - before I turn and find out otherwise, do you recall how you removed this for the swap out?
> Image attached. Thanks,
> Rich
> <img alt="IMG_20190624_185257164.thumb.jpg.e213d77b7ae1dff71211d755c37f0359.jpg" data-fileid="30372" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_06/IMG_20190624_185257164.thumb.jpg.e213d77b7ae1dff71211d755c37f0359.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


If you still decide to also swap AT probe for dual: they're exactly the same, only AT is screwed in whereas BT is secured by a grub screw.
To loosen AT probe, first completely undo all wiring and wind it up or cable torsion will play tricks on you


----------



## tonescout

Thanks everyone !!

I will keep you updated on progress (or not!)

R


----------



## Stevebee

Choffter said:


> Looking good@tonescout. Something I have noticed is that I find it easier to collect the bean from the cooling tray when there is a drop off the edge of the table. Maybe you have a better bowl for collecting them in but something to bear in mind if you have not considered it?


 Get one of these. Fits under the exit chute on the Dalian, put on the scale and pour the beans into your storage container.

Quick and simple and works. For my 5kg I dump straight into a bucket but for my Dalian and Gene 1200 I use these.

https://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/rattleware-1kg-scoop


----------



## Paolo5

I have just finished 3 roasts with the 4" flu installed.

As the flue is construced with a wire embedded into the aluminium material and spiralling along the flue's length, the end really doesn't want to compress from its 4" to the smaller diameter Dalian flange. I tried several times and settled after nipping the 'spine' in several places in the end (to break its 4" integrity a bit) that I was trying to mate up to the Dalian flange. In order to tighten the hose clamp enough to have the flue remain in place, it meant that the aluminium tore each time... resulting in a smoke leak. I threw a coffee bean bag over the leak help keep the smoke inside the flu.

There must be a more effective way of doing this...but I can't think of it. HELP!! Any ideas?

Does Dalian make the correct size flange for a 4" flue?

I perservered with the smoke and the roasting anyway and found that (for the same beans/quantity/settings that I always start a roast) the ROR was a bit higher (1C) than with the OE flue. The roasting temperature tended to increase more readily in general. I found myself making more adjustments to the 'Cooling Air' to reduce the ROR than with the OE flue. During the 3rd roast I was able to control the ROR that was getting away from me a bit by using the power control that I installed a few years back.

It was kind of like driving a different car for the first time..the inputs are similar...but different.

The roasts all look really good. The proof will be in the tasting.


----------



## PaulL

Go onto google and type in "ducting reducer aluminium" and look at the images. I forget where mine came from as it's several years old but basically you put the 4" end into the ducting you bought (tape together) and the 3" end over the Dalian exit pipe but it doesn't need taping (smoke doesn't leak out and my Dalian being on a trolley means in case of roaster fire it won't stop me wheeling the roaster outside). You don't cut the ducting itself.


----------



## Paolo5

Thanks for that, Paul!


----------



## tonescout

So here is my set up atm, and I still can't get the Air Temp up to the recommended 240 Deg C

My wattage is

It's alway the RT probe that switches off the heater 215 Deg C maximum really on AT. I could never get 180 as the driver for the heater control is the RT gauge.

What do you think / do I need to go to 100mm earlier on the exit (I vent over roof into trees to prevent possible complaints from smell etc.) Is the exhaust my problem?

I go 80mm out through cabin, turn at 80mm and then move to 100mm as per the images.


----------



## tonescout

Just taking this vent exit off (which is to stop critters entering...) and having another look at temp on 2cmSD 8cmCA.

Nope... cutting at RT=195, and AT just 198 now, once heater cuts thermal inertia takes this to RT=196 AT=201

Any suggestions?

R


----------



## tonescout

Power is 2510 W


----------



## DavecUK

The air temp is not recommended to reach 240C? that's the point I programmed the controller to go off and act as a second off switch..."it's the feck me it's getting hot in that drum point". Please don't try to get air temp to 240C, that's not really an objective.

p.S. If you have the roaster working correctly, all that heatproofing isn't necessary, even the steel pipe before the chaff collector won't be hot enough to burn your hand, let alone after? In fact the motor casing will be hotter than the rest of the pipework.


----------



## tonescout

ok - thanks.

The heat proofing was just a way of supporting the pipe through the oversize hole, and I have not cut it off and tidied it up yet, so agreed and noted.

Do you think I need to re engineer with 100mm throughout or will this 80mm be fine to begin with.

Your Quickstart guide suggests 235 Deg C for AT with RT at 180 - I just can't get anything like that?

R


----------



## DavecUK

tonescout said:


> ok - thanks.
> 
> The heat proofing was just a way of supporting the pipe through the oversize hole, and I have not cut it off and tidied it up yet, so agreed and noted.
> 
> 1. Do you think I need to re engineer with 100mm throughout or will this 80mm be fine to begin with.
> 
> 2. Your Quickstart guide suggests 235 Deg C for AT with RT at 180 - I just can't get anything like that?


 1. 100mm all the way.

2. Only worry about RT, the AT is the upper limit, other than that it has no impact.


----------



## tonescout

Dave,



DavecUK said:


> 1. 100mm all the way.
> 
> 2. Only worry about RT, the AT is the upper limit, other than that it has no impact.﻿


 Thanks for advice - all sorted at 100mm (images attached)

I have just followed the warm up process in the quick start guide and this is what I end up with as temperatures (I have also connected the K type to a fluke, and swapped this to the left hand location with the PT100 now in RHS hole so that when I next roast the K-Type is in the bean mass. I am not roasting with this yet in this position as i want to save the trial beans until I have connected everything in Artisan.

I end up with the following as it cycles in and out of Heat from RT-PT100 sensor:

I can't get anywhere near the guidelines in the quick start guide (180 / 235 ) I know this was in a low ambient temp.

21 Deg C ambient and 2550 W for power draw.

Thoughts?











minutes

KType

RT

AT

0

24

24

24

3

41

36

37

6

85

77

68

9

148

129

110

10

165

145

123

13

219

199

180

16

209

201

191

19

199

193

189

22

204

196

194

25

205

197

195

28

202

193

193

31

208

198

196

34

203

193

191


----------



## tonescout

or does AT simply just not matter, it just seems a lot of difference to the guidelines.

R


----------



## DavecUK

I can't remember exactly;y what I wrote, it was years ago and for my roaster really.


----------



## tonescout

DavecUK said:


> I can't remember exactly;y what I wrote, it was years ago and for my roaster really.


 10minutes at CA fully open and SD closed
15 minutes CA fully open and SD 2cm

resulting in RT = 180, AT = 235. mine is RT=197, AT=195

I only want to confirm that everything is OK based upon an apparent temperature difference from the guide of 40 Deg C for the AT.

Could it be the new vents in the bottom plate....?

R


----------



## PaulL

Deleted


----------



## DavecUK

tonescout said:


> 10minutes at CA fully open and SD closed
> 15 minutes CA fully open and SD 2cm
> 
> resulting in RT = 180, AT = 235. mine is RT=197, AT=195
> 
> I only want to confirm that everything is OK based upon an apparent temperature difference from the guide of 40 Deg C for the AT.
> 
> Could it be the new vents in the bottom plate....?
> 
> R


 Nah, I checked mine and I have the same vents after all. I think I need to revisit the documentation when I have time and perhaps try and update those logs a bit or make them clearer. Also to reference the fact that the differences in roasters exist and the supplied vent tube should not really be used. Trouble is no one pays me to do it....so it's not a massive priority and a lot of work to go through the documentation.

Your temps look OK, just adjust to suit your voltage, ventilation and ambient temp settings and don't worry too much about AT, that's a sort of safety thing nothing. Just for every ones benefit, the temp on AT can be influenced by how much you open the SD. It's more a fire overheat type of thing.

So try SD closed for 8 minutes, then perhaps open to 3cm.... etc..


----------



## DavecUK

PaulL said:


> For the number of owners of Dalian and other roasters there seem to be very few roast logs shared. I know roasting is a closely guarded secret in the commercial world but it shouldn't be like that with enthusiasts and I have always assumed apathy to be honest.
> 
> Personally I typically roast once each time (for personal consumption) rather than batches back to back and over time (about 3 years and 150 roasts) this is loosely my approach. I'm sure this is buried somewhere in previous pages but it doesn't matter.
> 
> 1. 25 min warm up at perhaps 1600w in cold weather and 1400w in hot weather (power modded UK proptotype roaster) aiming for thoroughly warmed roaster at consistent bean load temp
> 
> 2. SD at 30mm and CA fully open and the 1400/1600w retained for 4 mins
> 
> 3. Power to max at 4min, SD opened to 40mm/50mm depending on temp indiciations through to about 10 or 11 min
> 
> 4. Power dropped to about 1500w when I anticipate 1st crack arriving a min later
> 
> 5. Power off about 30s after 1st crack is gong and SD opened to 60mm/90mm depending on intensity of 1st crack/bean so the roast doesn't run away
> 
> 6. tryer checked every 15/20secs for colour/toads etc. aiming to end typically as 2nd crack arrives
> 
> 7. Cooled roast emptied straight into container on scales and net weight typically between 840/850g
> 
> Now, there may be better ways to roast but, as I say, there is very little info shared it seems.


 The only problem with this Paul is you have the original roaster (the first test one) before I redesigned things and the redesigned roasters don't work anything like the same as yours for the same settings. It's not just a bit different but very different. None of the standard roasters would roast at 1400 to 1600W. So nothing you share is much use to them.


----------



## PaulL

No worries.


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> The only problem with this Paul is you have the original roaster (the first test one) before I redesigned things and the redesigned roasters don't work anything like the same as yours for the same settings. It's not just a bit different but very different. None of the standard roasters would roast at 1400 to 1600W. So nothing you share is much use to them.


That's interesting, you mean starting out at that wattage?
Because I dim my elements to these values throughout the roast (with some beans at least), but going full throttle in the beginning.

Sharing roast logs only makes sense if you're sharing beans along, if you ask me. Chances are you're not able to secure certain stock at certain times or different places etc.
I've posted a typical profile somewhere above (Artisan screenshot, not toooo long ago) to illustrate where flaps and power input are at. Maybe that's of some help for beginners...


----------



## tonescout

Hasi,

Yes it will be useful - thanks.

For everyone also, here is my set up with variable heater control following Dave's guidelines - I put mine on the front panel as you can see. The packaging (just) works to provide free clearance to the CA and SD mechanisms.

R


----------



## tonescout

Anyone know what this is?

I was thinking it might be possible to use this as a tap for drum pressure reading?

Any ideas?

R


----------



## DavecUK

Yes, time to stop thinking for a while and just keep roasting....


----------



## tonescout

noted - you can tell I am bored before I get the green delivered.....


----------



## Paolo5

I just finished doing 2 roasts with my Dalian.

Whilst the roaster was cooling down, I opened the drawer to the chaff collector and had a big surprise.

The last roast was a Yirgacheffe, which is always very 'chaffy'...but this is the first time that the chaff has actually had smouldering bits in it. The whole top layer was burnt...underneath was the usual brown chaff.

I feel that it could have been quite dangerous...and that I was lucky that the chaff didn't actually ignite. The thing is, I didn't do anything different to the other 170 roasts that I have done with my Dalian. The only difference is that now I have a 100mm flue connected via an adaptor.

It could be that I simply had too much chaff in the tray before I started roasting today. I normally empty the tray after each session (2-4 roasts)...There was perhaps the chaff from 4 roasts in there before I did the 2 today..so possibly 6 roasts altogether.4

Has anyone else had this happen? Any ideas what I did wrong?


----------



## Hasi

1. take off vent motor for a good clean
2. open service gate underneath cooling tray and look inside CA damper duct - vacuum clean any residue

and you should be doing fine again 

One thing that I do after every roast (mentioned somewhere above) is fully closing both dampers, then opening one, closing again, opening the other, closing again. Repeat couple times. This will clear out internal ducts, heating elements and damper flaps due to negative pressure building up from vent fan. Then empty chaff tray and be amazed!


----------



## Paolo5

Hi Hasi,

Thanks for that information.

I cleaned the vent motor and surround not too long ago but it will do it again tomorrow.

I haven't checked inside the CA damper duct (ever)...so that is obviously long overdue.

I will start up the roaster tomorrow and try the damper opening/closing as you suggested.


----------



## ashcroc

Depending on how recently you've increased the size of the ducting, it could just be chaff which was caught somewhere finally making it's way to the collector.


----------



## Paolo5

Thanks, ashcroc. You could be spot-on there.

Time will tell. I will be very wary of the chaff collecting in the drawer after the next roast or two.


----------



## tonescout

Quick question, I was doing a roast yesterday and after about 6 mins (projected FC at about 9,30) I had a power cut......

I got the Co2 extinguisher ready nearby, and hopefully checked the consumer unit for a tripped RCD, but it was the supply into the property. I turned off the power switch in case it came back on.

got going again after about 1 minute, and no drama (apart from a spoiled batch of beans)......

WHAT SHOULD/COULD YOU DO IN CASE OF POWER CUT??

R


----------



## ashcroc

tonescout said:


> Quick question, I was doing a roast yesterday and after about 6 mins (projected FC at about 9,30) I had a power cut......
> I got the Co2 extinguisher ready nearby, and hopefully checked the consumer unit for a tripped RCD, but it was the supply into the property. I turned off the power switch in case it came back on.
> got going again after about 1 minute, and no drama (apart from a spoiled batch of beans)......
> WHAT SHOULD/COULD YOU DO IN CASE OF POWER CUT??
> R


It may not be enough to save the roast, but a UPS may give you long enough to shut down safely.


----------



## Hasi

ashcroc said:


> It may not be enough to save the roast, but a UPS may give you long enough to shut down safely.


that be a good idea, if you cut heating elements the machine only uses minor wattage for drum and fan. Lots of time to dump and cool.

6min into the roast nothing will happen. Only well after first crack you'd see a heat build-up that has potential to ignite beans or damage parts of your roaster.


----------



## Choffter

Was looking for a bit of advice on this. Underneath my chaff collection tray there is a lot of chaff (after roasting 3kg). Does this look like a normal amount.m, and what is the best way to clean under the tray. A vacuum cleaner with a long nozzle or can the tray come off?


----------



## Hasi

I have a handheld vac with long and flexible nozzle, will reach behind CA damper flap no problem 

Deending on bean and roasting style this is quite normal. What's your damper positions during cooling?


----------



## Choffter

Hasi said:


> I have a handheld vac with long and flexible nozzle, will reach behind CA damper flap no problem
> 
> Deending on bean and roasting style this is quite normal. What's your damper positions during cooling?


I think I have it around 7/8 when cooling. I also still have the 3 inch flue, being replaced with a 4" flue today as it happens, so don't know if this will make a difference to the chaff being extracted out the flue.


----------



## Hasi

both dampers open?

if you close SD, CA will pull more air and therefore suck more chaff into cyclone.

I do at least 3 sessions (min. 35-40kg total) before vacuuming underneath cooling tray. no issues with build-up there.


----------



## Choffter

Hasi said:


> both dampers open?
> 
> if you close SD, CA will pull more air and therefore suck more chaff into cyclone.
> 
> I do at least 3 sessions (min. 35-40kg total) before vacuuming underneath cooling tray. no issues with build-up there.


Jeez!!! Cool I'll try that tonight after fitting the wider flue. It's maybe to do with the SD being partially open.

Thanks@hasi


----------



## RDC8

Just to add that some beans are more "chaffy" than others - so keep an eye on how quickly it builds up. If you change the origin and/or processing method you may need to change your cleaning routines.

I assume the photo was of the chaff under the cooling tray? I vacuumed mine out this week for the first time in about 6 months - surprisingly little buil-up. But the chaff drawer under the cyclone is emptied at the end of each roasting session, sometimes even during the session if I have a large quota to fill!


----------



## tonescout

Hello everyone,

comments welcome, cupping tomorrow BUT these are very old beans that I am using to understand how the software and hardware work - not for real profile development. I am still struggling to find a strategy to manage crash + flick, and wanted anyone's thoughts / POV as I play around with old beans.

As you can see I am opening air Damper (slowly) approaching and after FC and decreasing heat as FC approaches (I have a variable heat adjuster). Cooling always at 80mm fully open.

Roast 4 and 6 pretty similar.

Roast 7 was an attempt to slow roast down and enter FC without the same thermal inertia.

(Note BT probe is deeper (lower) in bean pile than the original location (in fact Roast 7 shows ET in the original BT probe location as current ET reading to have a look/compare)























Rich


----------



## Hasi

Congrats! ...pretty solid input you've got there, telling from deltaBT curve. What's your sampling rate and delta span settings now?

Regarding crash&co. according to Scott Rao: you have a baked roast when you taste one, not necessarily when (you think) you've spotted one in your graph. I mean, there's obvious signs such as a real stall or decline in roasting temp, but especially around 1C start you need to develop a feeling for your machine whether or not you can trust readings. Because - and that's the dangerous part of high resolution logging - beans absorb quite a bit of heat prior to 1C to eventually release it suddenly upon bursting open. If one of these effects happen in direct adjacency of your thin and super sensitive probe, guess what you see on screen a second later?

Thus, you should interpret readings relative to your settings and probes. For instance, if your sampling rate is 2s and your delta span is 6s, a delta of 0 means you had one or two negative values in your data set. But without knowing previous readings you cannot determine how much it'll point downwards 2s later. This is where the fancypants new idea of AUC comes in handy. But you wouldn't really need it visualised if you're paying attention 

Keep it coming mate!


----------



## tonescout

so Delta span is 5s, sampling is 1s and after cupping (actually all fairly similar with not particularly nice Congo old beans):

4 best, followed by 6 then 7

4 some lemon acidity and not as bitter finish as 6. 7 is just a bit soft and a weaker flavour overall.

Image showing 4 (on top) vs 6 as direct comparison as FYI.

What is AUC? (area under curve?) and how do you make use?


----------



## tonescout

This is interesting extraction results from the cupping 11.5g / 180g water. EK43 grind at 10 on 3fe scale.

roast 4 23.1%

roast 6 22.62%

roast 7 21.22%

supporting the theory better extraction is desirable 9and better developed coffee

R


----------



## Stevebee

@tonescout what batch sizes are you using?


----------



## tonescout

1kg in about 880 out (but beans are old and no idea of moisture content)


----------



## tonescout

So any tactics for approaching FC and preventing a small crash and soft flick?

Roast 12 I tried a softer start with a soak, and this does not taste as good - I was trying to slow the approach in to FC.

I know the logic on a gas machine of not putting more gas in to compensate for the crash and the logic of letting the roast run into FC without any gas or major air changes within 1m-45s.

Apart from that I can't seem to find any techniques or advice that explains some tactics or approaches for managing this aspect?

Thoughts?

[ note ET on roast 11 and 12 is actually a 3mm RTD in the original probe location, and Drum temp is the K type in this location to RHS of drum ] I use a bean temp probe location lower down - stealing a lower mounting hole in the sight glass.


----------



## filthynines

We fired ours up in anger about two hours ago and did some back-to-back roasts. We are super impressed. The one issue we now have is ventilation. We have the hose out of the window, but the plume of smoke took me completely by surprise. There's far more smoke than when roasting with the Gene Cafe CBR1200. Only one of our batches will make it into our mugs because Dave from Crankhouse very kindly gave me some junk beans a little while ago and we finally got round to using them as the first couple of kilos through the roaster.

Any useful machinery for ventilation? I don't think a wall fan is gonna do it...


----------



## DavecUK

Out the window, or through the wall you go.


----------



## filthynines

I'm getting huge plumes of smoke for five mins or more. The roaster is housed about 7m from the house and the smoke is perceptible from at least that distance. Our neighbours are going to be pretty upset!


----------



## Hasi

filthynines said:


> I'm getting huge plumes of smoke for five mins or more. The roaster is housed about 7m from the house and the smoke is perceptible from at least that distance. Our neighbours are going to be pretty upset!


unless you guys supply them, that is.


----------



## filthynines

On that topic: is there a particular reason this wouldn't work: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Air-Carbon-Filter-6-Inch-Hydroponics-Grow-Green-Room-Tent-Ventilation-Premium/153622371410?hash=item23c49b5c52:g:bAIAAOSwZ-pdZ5-T ?


----------



## DavecUK

filthynines said:


> On that topic: is there a particular reason this wouldn't work: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Air-Carbon-Filter-6-Inch-Hydroponics-Grow-Green-Room-Tent-Ventilation-Premium/153622371410?hash=item23c49b5c52:g:bAIAAOSwZ-pdZ5-T ?


 It won't work, you need quite an expensive electrostatic air scrubber and they only work up to a point, the other solution is an afterburner, but you wouldn't like the gas costs or installation requirements. It should produce no more smoke than the CBR1200 1Kg, but of course it's more visible because it's not mixed with so much air. I also wonder if you are roasting far too hot and burning a lot of the chaff rather than it falling off and going in the draw, this also negatively affects the taste of the coffee. If your using the supplied vent hose, then you are almost certainly getting things too hot.


----------



## filthynines

Off to Wickes on Monday!


----------



## DavecUK

filthynines said:


> Off to Wickes on Monday!


 I only used Wickes as an example, I have no financial interest in Wickes, so you might find it cheaper or nearer but it's where I got mine from.


----------



## filthynines

DavecUK said:


> I only used Wickes as an example, I have no financial interest in Wickes, so you might find it cheaper or nearer but it's where I got mine from.


 Possibly for ducting it isn't essential, but I tend to prefer buying the stuff that others before me have already tried and tested


----------



## filthynines

Response from BB is that it seems all of those pipes are the wrong size, and can we cut it down this end? Not really. Earthing strap on its way though.


----------



## DavecUK

filthynines said:


> Response from BB is that it seems all of those pipes are the wrong size, and can we cut it down this end? Not really. Earthing strap on its way though.


 The roaster should have been all connected up to it's chaff collector and functionally checked before being sent out?

As for cutting down, you might well find there is a slip over collar welded on each end of that pipe so you can't just cut it down. If there is no collar and just a pipe end, then yeah you could cut it down with a full size hacksaw, hard work as the steel will be tough, probably take 5 minutes or so.

What are you going to do?


----------



## filthynines

DavecUK said:


> The roaster should have been all connected up to it's chaff collector and functionally checked before being sent out?
> 
> As for cutting down, you might well find there is a slip over collar welded on each end of that pipe so you can't just cut it down. If there is no collar and just a pipe end, then yeah you could cut it down with a full size hacksaw, hard work as the steel will be tough, probably take 5 minutes or so.
> 
> What are you going to do?


 Nope - after my brother specifically arranged (not dictated) a date to collect we arrived early afternoon to be told they weren't expecting us. The roaster was tested, but definitely not with our chaff collector attached because it was in a sealed box and the pipe was wrapped in lots of cellophane. The roaster was warm when we took it away.

We're now told that an earthing strap isn't available either - the manufacturer doesn't supply them.

For now it's a further email in response asking for a different proposal. It's not fit for purpose as it stands. Even if we're happy to botch together a solution, we then have to persuade whoever buys it when we're finished that it's an acceptable way to operate it.

I'll be honest, we're not experiencing the famous Bella Barista service at the moment. Very pleasant to deal with, but it hasn't been straightforward.


----------



## DavecUK

One consolation assuming you keep the roaster, it produces a very nice roast assuming the rest of it's working fine and you get the issue with the pipe sorted.

I had a longer possibly more helpful reply but with the way the forum has been lately...I thought the better of it and scrubbed it before posting.


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> One consolation assuming you keep the roaster, it produces a very nice roast assuming the rest of it's working fine and you get the issue with the pipe sorted.
> I had a longer possibly more helpful reply but with the way the forum has been lately...I thought the better of it and scrubbed it before posting.


PM it to them, I'm sure they'll appreciate your input!

For the time being, I'd put something flat and solid underneath cyclone/chaff collector (like a piece of wood) to correct cyclone inlet height. 11mm is not much really. It wouldn't perceivably affect performance and get you guys started.

As for the missing earth wire, it simply attaches to one of screws on cyclone bottom and to lower right screw of lower roaster back panel. You could do it yourself pretty easily. I'd recommend to test with a multimeter for condutivity on different blank spots (screws) on roaster and cyclone after mounting earth wire.


----------



## filthynines

DavecUK said:


> One consolation assuming you keep the roaster, it produces a very nice roast assuming the rest of it's working fine and you get the issue with the pipe sorted.
> 
> I had a longer possibly more helpful reply but with the way the forum has been lately...I thought the better of it and scrubbed it before posting.


 We'll certainly persevere with it and a solution will be found one way or the other. Our first attempts (having propped it up) were very encouraging, and hearing first crack properly for the first time was a genuine delight!


----------



## filthynines

Hasi said:


> PM it to them, I'm sure they'll appreciate your input!
> 
> For the time being, I'd put something flat and solid underneath cyclone/chaff collector (like a piece of wood) to correct cyclone inlet height. 11mm is not much really. It wouldn't perceivably affect performance and get you guys started.
> 
> As for the missing earth wire, it simply attaches to one of screws on cyclone bottom and to lower right screw of lower roaster back panel. You could do it yourself pretty easily. I'd recommend to test with a multimeter for condutivity on different blank spots (screws) on roaster and cyclone after mounting earth wire.


 I'm still waiting to hear your ventilation story on your Road to Roasting thread ? But will be looking to act on this soon - thanks!


----------



## filthynines

Some nice, even looking roasts today. Still plumes of smoke, which seem destined to upset neighbours. I went round to apologise earlier today but nobody answered.

An obvious point to make: but hearing first crack has been a game changer. It's such a significant reference point, and I can't imagine going backwards from the Dalian now.


----------



## Choffter

filthynines said:


> Some nice, even looking roasts today. Still plumes of smoke, which seem destined to upset neighbours. I went round to apologise earlier today but nobody answered.
> An obvious point to make: but hearing first crack has been a game changer. It's such a significant reference point, and I can't imagine going backwards from the Dalian now.


Got any pictures to share?

I did a couple of roasters today. Look ok. Shall be sampling in a couple of days.


----------



## filthynines

Not on this occasion! We have cupped, though, and the results are decent. A nice Yirg to look forward to in the week!


----------



## Choffter

So a worrying think happened tonight. I roasted 2 kilos back to back in the Dalian. When I was finished and the roaster was cooled I went to empty the cyclone tray, only to see that the chaff had caught fire at some point as was burned on the top. Does anyone know why this would have happened as I'd like to avoid it in future.


----------



## Hasi

1. empty chaff tray after each roast

After that you can create a bit of a vacuum by fully closing both dampers. Wait for a few seconds, then open SD quickly. Repeat two or three times. This should clear heating elements from settled particles.

I suppose you closed SD when dumping and cooling first roast?


----------



## Hasi

more importantly though, did you already get equipped with a CO2 extinguisher?


----------



## Choffter

Hi Hasi, it may have been the build up of chaff. I shall empty after each roast and try the SD arm trick to remove any chaff in the drum. Yes I have a CO2 extinguisher ready in case there is ever a fire

I have reread Daves manual and to be fair mentions the points. Sounds like I'll be fine if I keep an eye on the chaff more often.


----------



## Sr249

tonescout said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> comments welcome, cupping tomorrow BUT these are very old beans that I am using to understand how the software and hardware work - not for real profile development. I am still struggling to find a strategy to manage crash + flick, and wanted anyone's thoughts / POV as I play around with old beans.
> 
> As you can see I am opening air Damper (slowly) approaching and after FC and decreasing heat as FC approaches (I have a variable heat adjuster). Cooling always at 80mm fully open.
> 
> Roast 4 and 6 pretty similar.
> 
> Roast 7 was an attempt to slow roast down and enter FC without the same thermal inertia.
> 
> (Note BT probe is deeper (lower) in bean pile than the original location (in fact Roast 7 shows ET in the original BT probe location as current ET reading to have a look/compare)
> 
> View attachment 31597
> View attachment 31598
> 
> 
> View attachment 31596
> 
> 
> Rich


 Hi tonescout, this looks amazing. I got my Dalian a few weeks ago and waiting for the parts for the power mod. Meantime i connected the K Type probe supplied to artisan and was so disappointed and sad with the output i got. Did you document how managed to achieve proper integration to Artisan anywhere by any chance? Would love to be able to achieve what you did here.


----------



## filthynines

@Sr249 Interesting you say that. My brother has been trying to set up Artisan and he has had difficulty, too.


----------



## Sr249

@filthynines I used a voltcraft to connect to artisan which was straightforward in itself but the problem is because the probe is placed well outside of the bean mass.


----------



## Batian

@Hasi may have some help here.? I think he switched the probes so Artisan was supplied by the probe in the bean mass.


----------



## Hasi

K-type probe position doesn't make sense, that's true. I've actually removed it for good.

If you want proper read-out, you should look into the following:

- 2x dual PT100 probes (I've ordered made-to-measure from thermosense.co.uk after recommendation from a fellow forum member) 
- 2-channel USB input device (I've got me a MyPCLab) 
- get probes calibrated

The latter was important to me because temp controller readings in my roaster were off between 15 and 25C, increasing with temperature. So no controller offset value could convert to real-world temperatures.

Hope this helps!


----------



## Sr249

thanks for your reply @Hasi. Gives me a starting point!
I'm not great when it comes to such technical work. Wished someone would do this professionally for a fee so i'd know i'm set up correctly. 
So if I understand well, i'd need to replace the existing probes (Roaster/Bean Temp and Air Temp) with custom PT100 ones, keeping same positions and these would then connect into the 2channel usb input device as a first step?


----------



## Hasi

Sr249 said:


> thanks for your reply @Hasi. Gives me a starting point!
> I'm not great when it comes to such technical work. Wished someone would do this professionally for a fee so i'd know i'm set up correctly.
> So if I understand well, i'd need to replace the existing probes (Roaster/Bean Temp and Air Temp) with custom PT100 ones, keeping same positions and these would then connect into the 2channel usb input device as a first step?


correct!
I've taken all measurements off standard probes, except for sheath diameter which I wanted to be thinner for faster response rate.
I'd happily set you up, although my fee wouldn't amuse you if it included flight fares 

Calibration can only be done by a professional, who has a calibrared setup himself. Lucky me has a friend working in that field so he just dropped by with his kit one day.
All the other things are pretty straight forward. Upon rewiring internally just make sure to use cable ties in original locations to avoid collisions with drive belt.
You don't need fancy tools or anything, just a few spanners, allen keys and 30mins time.
As for sw installation and setup, this may take a while. Often you need to add y=x/10 to the mix (can't recall what the menu in Artisan is called) before you can see any temp values appear.


----------



## Rob1

You can calibrate a thermocouple without another calibrated sensor...https://learn.adafruit.com/calibrating-sensors/so-how-do-we-calibrate

Not sure how this applies to stuff you buy. There are probably settings for you to change rather than code that you need to add.


----------



## Sr249

Thanks @Hasi and @Rob1. 
So while i was losing some sleep on this, I thought (bear in mind i'm rubbish at this): if i get a couple of K Type thermocouples and replace the stock Roaster Temp one, i could get BT and delta BT on Artisan which would already be a good step forward. Is this something that can be done or will the K Type not fit in the PT100 hole or something of that sort?

(it's probably a stupid question so apologies in advance!  )

thanks for the offer @Hasi - that's very kind. It feels like i could get a second Dalian for the airfare price - especially at this time of the year!


----------



## johnealey

bear in mind that if you were to replace the PT100 thermocouple you would lose your read out / PID feed as well.

What @Hasi has done is replace the PT100 feeds for roast temp and Exhaust temp with dual output thermocouples which maintain the feed to the PID's as well as providing an output to his data bridge which in turn provides the output to artisan.

Not sure if you are aware, apologies if you are, but you can still use artisan in "manual" mode or old school (Config>device> meter none then tick et / bt for curves and LCD) inputting the figures as you roast taking the figures from the PID displays. Can get a bit hairy as you get close to dropping but you get into a rythem real quickly and can then use that curve graph as a background to follow. No doubt you can also manually input air slider settings etc but as I run a paper record alongside the artisan I can record the SD etc settings here to refer back to.

Hope of help whilst you looking for a way to automate readings etc.

John


----------



## johnealey

below might help to decide whether manual works for you bearing in mind there are different LCD's showing during the roast that post 1st crack being entered into artisan will give you an "at that point" time development reading and you can configure it to show you a Delta graph below the main graph as you go along (otherwise it appears post roast in the graph) p.s is not an excellent roast just one to show how configured and screenshot to hand as there was a bit of a temp rise post 1st crack!


----------



## Sr249

thank you @johnealey! This has definitely helped me understand the whole concept a bit more. I was not aware of the possibility of using Artisan manually! I've used other tools and had some custom ones but never used Artisan much

Automation is what i'm after long term with power changes to manage roast on the fly as necessary, however, this BY FAR beats plotting a chart over another chart manually while i roast and smell and look at the trier etc. i'm a very visual person and for me a graph beats the numbers on a sheet anytime. The more i think about it the more i like it especially for the profile development bit.
(i intend to export to excel from artisan and extract patterns using a BI tool and automation would help since i'd have more data collected to play around with.

This is becoming more and more exciting!  thank you all for your kind help and support!


----------



## Hasi

I forgot to add that further up this thread it's been discussed to maintain a certain thermal safety cut-off by keeping temp controllers up and running. You can only do so when replacing existing PT100s with dual probes. Also, continued use of existing holes not only makes your life easier (me thinks the front plate is 13mm steel, imagine drilling a hole through that ), but also what the inventor had in mind.
You'll need PT100 type resistance probes to feed controllers. It kinda makes the whole setup somewhat expensive, but also pretty spot on accurate (especially if you get them calibrated/tuned in Artisan).


----------



## filthynines

Boxing Day = finally some spare time to get on the roaster myself.

We bought a Yoctocouple for the purposes of connecting to Artisan. My brother had trouble getting readings on both channels, so asked me to sense check it all. Turns out one channel is knackered, so several hours wasted trying to configure something that is bust.


----------



## Hasi

Rob1 said:


> You can calibrate a thermocouple without another calibrated sensor...https://learn.adafruit.com/calibrating-sensors/so-how-do-we-calibrate
> 
> Not sure how this applies to stuff you buy. There are probably settings for you to change rather than code that you need to add.


 Sorry Rob - didn't really see your reply. Now had a look at the link you've posted, thanks for that - interesting read!

It becomes pretty obvious how much of a non-linear error there is in a resistance (PT) probe. The biggest initial problem, however, remains: the constant you refer to under any given circumstance. Boiling or ice water have variable temperatures themselves, taking into account sea-level and changes in atmospheric pressure. Next thing is, 0 or even 100C aren't really significant values in roasting. If a gain error occurs above H2O boiling point you will have no chance to even get close to detecting it!

How a calibration sequence ideally works is to measure against an identical type of sensor (calibrated) in an oil bath capable of reaching desired maximum temperature directly on site. For increased accuracy, you will need at least three points of measurement at exactly the same time (e.g. by taking a photo/screenshot of both readings), min, mid, max temp. Doing 3 cycles, then reversing input channels and repeating 3 more times will give you error-proof mean data. And half a day's worth of waiting for oil bath to cool down again  obviously you can overcomplicate things, especially if you have multiple probes (including maybe spare ones...)!

In the end of the day it depends on whether you're likely to suffer loss from false readings. I've roasted at completely wrong temperatures (displayed) but knew they were off and would simply select profile curves based on cupping results. Exchanging a probe with a different error might make previous efforts useless. For a business, I'd recommend to go through this odyssey just to be on the safe side.


----------



## Hasi

filthynines said:


> Boxing Day = finally some spare time to get on the roaster myself.
> 
> We bought a Yoctocouple for the purposes of connecting to Artisan. My brother had trouble getting readings on both channels, so asked me to sense check it all. Turns out one channel is knackered, so several hours wasted trying to configure something that is bust.


 dang... hope you'll receive replacement soon!


----------



## filthynines

Hasi said:


> dang... hope you'll receive replacement soon!


 Thanks mate. Now looking into your Thermosense option. Which of the options they offer did you end up with? I see a few PT100 and I have a guess which one it is. Did you then measure your own hole (so to speak!) or did you go off the last chap's measurements? After that, did you have to re-wire?


----------



## Hasi

I've ordered custom dual PT100 probes with 3mm sheath dia.
they come with a single 6-pin wiring loom cut to your specified length. You can tell them anything they should manufacture, sheath dimensions, base shape/thread, etc.
I went for a sleek base and reused OEM insert with grub screw for easy access, so bsically copying the original probe dimensions, except for sheath diameter.

Re-wiring is a must with PT100 probes and has to be carried out with extreme care. The measuring principle relies on calculating the difference in electrical resistance between hot and cold metal. Don't cut or knacker any wires/braids (especially when stripping insulation or connecting to terminals) - best option is to buy correct length and crimped ends.

Hope this helps


----------



## filthynines

I'm going to cause an explosion, aren't I?

Thanks again!


----------



## ashcroc

filthynines said:


> I'm going to cause an explosion, aren't I?
> Thanks again!


You better get one of these  to be on the safe side!


----------



## Border_all

ashcroc said:


> You better get one of these  to be on the safe side!


 ????


----------



## Sr249

Hasi said:


> I forgot to add that further up this thread it's been discussed to maintain a certain thermal safety cut-off by keeping temp controllers up and running. You can only do so when replacing existing PT100s with dual probes. Also, continued use of existing holes not only makes your life easier (me thinks the front plate is 13mm steel, imagine drilling a hole through that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), but also what the inventor had in mind.
> You'll need PT100 type resistance probes to feed controllers. It kinda makes the whole setup somewhat expensive, but also pretty spot on accurate (especially if you get them calibrated/tuned in Artisan).


 @Hasi So i'm in my shed trying out a very cheap and quick and temporary workaround when this point came to mind. 
The workaround is to simply swap the positions of the roasting temp PT100 and the K-Type one so that the K Type is more accurate for use with Artisan. And the PT100 manages temperature in a position where it fluctuates less.
Because of what you mentioned above, the PT100 is now in a hotter location in the roaster so it is stopping the heating element a bit early which is not so much of an issue since i can adjust the element to stop later, say at 205 instead of 195.

I'm monitoring the real temperature using a voltcraft meter On the K Type. My question is, how hot do i want it to go? At the moment, 25-30 minutes into warming up, with the ewelly cutting out at 205, the voltcraft read a high of 218.5 Celsius. I feel it's enough but would prefer proper guidance instead of basing it on my own gut feel. 
Thanks again for your kind help!


----------



## DavecUK

Sr249 said:


> @Hasi So i'm in my shed trying out a very cheap and quick and temporary workaround when this point came to mind.
> The workaround is to simply swap the positions of the roasting temp PT100 and the K-Type one so that the K Type is more accurate for use with Artisan. And the PT100 manages temperature in a position where it fluctuates less.


 Page 41 of the Amazon Dalian User Guide does suggest doing this if going for automation.


----------



## Sr249

DavecUK said:


> Page 41 of the Amazon Dalian User Guide does suggest doing this if going for automation.


 @DaveC Ah that was it then. I thought iT came to me during the night! 

Did a couple of roasts and found that 205 is too low - it cut out just before 1st C causing all kind of temperature management pain during the exciting bit of the roast. Set ewelly roasting temp to cut at 215 and roasted again with good flow throughout and great temperature management using just the power mod (just to test it out on its own)
Very happy! Feels as easy as a gas roaster now. (Cannot believe how even the roasts are!)

Next is trying to figure out why the chimney position/angle has such a massive impact on AT...And AT to Artisan, and then maybe finally some profile development 

So far so good!

Thanks again!


----------



## Hasi

Have you done the dimmer mod, yet?
The best thing you can do for 10 quid and a hole 

I have my temp controllers cut off above temp that I need to go through a roast. Just playing with dimmer (going lower input rates as roast progresses) and finally cut heat manually.

Nothing wrong with switching probe positions around, as long as you keep one connected to internal temp controller for the safety of it.


----------



## Sr249

Yeah dimmer mod all done - that was first thing. Makes it feel like a gas roaster ?. It marks on the energy meter as i change it so it's easier to replicate.

Few roasts done using the dimmer to manage roast alone and it's working beautifully.

This weekend i'll be playing with chimney position. It makes such a massive difference to how it tastes in the cup. Any tips apart from changing to 100mm and keeping it as straight and short as possible?

Thanks again


----------



## DavecUK

Don't use the supplied hose use a minimum 100mm diameter hose with an adaptor for the cyclone exit.


----------



## Hasi

if you can get hold of a solid pipe, perfect!
if it needs to be flexible, fetch one of those thin ribbed hoses as they create less turbulence.
Avoid sharp bends as a 90° knee will make for enough resistance similar to a 6m straight section.


----------



## Sr249

Hasi said:


> if you can get hold of a solid pipe, perfect!
> if it needs to be flexible, fetch one of those thin ribbed hoses as they create less turbulence.
> Avoid sharp bends as a 90° knee will make for enough resistance similar to a 6m straight section.


 Thanks @Hasi Feels like the less resistance the better. I remember years ago i was tuning a car and it was about finding the right exhaust pipe diameter and a bigger diameter did not necessarily mean better performance.

I was worried that a very short 100mm x 1m long pipe might prevent the roaster from reaching a proper temperature or something.

Guess i shouldn't be comparing a turbo charged engine to a drum roaster then!


----------



## Hasi

haha, well... I've turbo charged my system by adding a secondary in-line variable speed suction fan.

The good thing about those damper flaps is you can control air intake very well. The shorter/less resistant your ducting, the less air you need to pull through.


----------



## Dotix

I do have a question related to clearance between drum and front plate: what is the recommended gap?

Why am I asking: after 2/3 roasts on my machine, there is a bit of chaff floating into the drum and perhaps widening the gap will solve this.


----------



## DavecUK

Dotix said:


> I do have a question related to clearance between drum and front plate: what is the recommended gap?
> 
> Why am I asking: after 2/3 roasts on my machine, there is a bit of chaff floating into the drum and perhaps widening the gap will solve this.


 No it won't. The chaff starts in the drum, then falls out of the holes.

I recommend a gap of about 1-2mm when hot.


----------



## Dotix

Thank you Dave. I will check on mine.


----------



## Sr249

Now that i've gotten my chimney and reference profile in place and after around 30-40 roasts, I'm really loving the dalian. Love how i can so easily control it to fix/adjust my profiles and getting some results i'm really excited about.

But...kaizen! There is one little thing i'd love to improve on: the reeeaaally tiny Trier. I'd love for it to be probably 3 or 4 times the size it is today. It would allow for samples to be taken out, and for the smells and visuals to be amplified. Looking at and smelling 3 or 4 beans seems a bit useless and i do use the trier quite a bit.

Not sure where to start and whether getting a bigger Trier without a bigger hole on the front plate is at all possible in the first place. Any help is greatly appreciated.


----------



## DavecUK

Sr249 said:


> Now that i've gotten my chimney and reference profile in place and after around 30-40 roasts, I'm really loving the dalian. Love how i can so easily control it to fix/adjust my profiles and getting some results i'm really excited about.
> 
> But...kaizen! There is one little thing i'd love to improve on: the reeeaaally tiny Trier. I'd love for it to be probably 3 or 4 times the size it is today. It would allow for samples to be taken out, and for the smells and visuals to be amplified. Looking at and smelling 3 or 4 beans seems a bit useless and i do use the trier quite a bit.
> 
> Not sure where to start and whether getting a bigger Trier without a bigger hole on the front plate is at all possible in the first place. Any help is greatly appreciated.


 You won't get too much from smelling hot beans in the tryer no matter how big. If you angle the tryer to the 10 o clock position it will collect more beans and faster.


----------



## Sr249

DavecUK said:


> You won't get too much from smelling hot beans in the tryer no matter how big. If you angle the tryer to the 10 o clock position it will collect more beans and faster.


 Hi @DavecUK,

yes i agree that the 10 o'clock position is the best (got there through some trial and error). Even somewhat pushing the trier slightly sideways before pulling it out helps. However, the amount of beans in the trier is still too small if you need a sample every 30 seconds for cupping for example. Or just to get a visual indication of where the roast is at. Taking multiple samples hasn't worked well for cupping since each sample would be too close to the next. 
That and having more beans to analyse would be useful.

i wonder what would happen if i had to have say a longer trier machined somewhere.


----------



## filthynines

This is a probably a @DavecUK question, but feel free to chime in even if you didn't have a hand in designing the roaster...

Is there any reason why an alternative can't be used instead of the solid aluminium ducting between the roaster and the cyclone? We're looking at external premises tomorrow and if we don't have the cyclone higher than the roaster we might have difficulty keeping the ducting from cyclone to outside at less than 2m.


----------



## Batian

If you can keep the ducting between cyclone and outside as straight as possible and go for a larger diameter than the supplied 80mm you should be OK for a little longer. I have two sweeping bends an extra 18" at a 100mm via an adaptor and the smoke belches out with vigour. You do have to be aware that any changes you do make will have an effect on the damper position when trying to duplicate previous roasts of a given coffee.

@NAJB had a plate made up to replace the outlet connection at the cyclone in order to take a bigger bore pipe...something you may wish to consider? I plan to copy his lead at some point.

@Hasi is a is genned up on this, airflow and ducting is his line of work, so you may like to run some pictures and diagrams past him?

(QED!)


----------



## Hasi

filthynines said:


> This is a probably a @DavecUK question, but feel free to chime in even if you didn't have a hand in designing the roaster...
> 
> Is there any reason why an alternative can't be used instead of the solid aluminium ducting between the roaster and the cyclone? We're looking at external premises tomorrow and if we don't have the cyclone higher than the roaster we might have difficulty keeping the ducting from cyclone to outside at less than 2m.


 Aerodynamic restrictions I would say. The longer the pipe, the more air needs to be moved, requiring more power. Solid ducting creates way less internal turbulence, therefore also aiding air flow tremendously. Changing length, geometry or material of this thing will likely alter your roasting results or requires you to change your damper settings when cyclone fan is less effective.
Then, there's the cleaning aspect. This piece of pipe can be removed and wiped clean internally very easily, apart from the smooth surfaces limiting build-up of debris in the first place. Because in the end, you want to collect dust and chaff in cyclone tray, not inside the ducting eh? 

You can use a secondary extractor fan if you need to route ducting around the premises. Usually these fans are designed to pull, so install next to wall exit. Include service/access panels or removable sections (best to use elbows for that!) to clean ducting as an extractor fan will happily pull chaff and oily fumes along into the pipework.

I've done it that way, also installed a dimmer switch to control fan speed which comes in handy as fan blades start to collect dust and debris, becoming less effective. I run my external fan at around 50% and eventually tune up to full throttle during a period of 50-70 batches, then do my clean-it-all routine that takes roughly 30mins.

How do I know what's the ideal fan speed setting? Before I start my roaster I'll slowly turn dimmer switch dial until I can see the cooling blades (behind wire mesh) of cyclone fan begin to spin. I carefully back off until they stop again. Starting roaster and cyclone fan will create just enough air speed to extract fumes nicely without affecting roasting profiles/settings.


----------



## filthynines

@Hasi Thank you again for that incredible detail. At this rate I'll have to name my second-born after you!


----------



## Jony

That's slightly weird.


----------



## filthynines

Not where I'm from it isn't!


----------



## Hasi

filthynines said:


> Not where I'm from it isn't!


 no no, where you are from it's totally weird - but great stuff at the same time!

I feel honoured nonetheless! Oh and you're welcome ??


----------



## filthynines

@Hasi Question #637 - Can you show me a website that shows the in-line extractor fan you bought, please? Even if it's Austrian at least I'll have something to go off. Searching for "extractor fan" is not helping me!

Also, does it need to be rated for above 50 degrees c? I suspect not, but I guess I should check!


----------



## filthynines

Batian said:


> If you can keep the ducting between cyclone and outside as straight as possible and go for a larger diameter than the supplied 80mm you should be OK for a little longer. I have two sweeping bends an extra 18" at a 100mm via an adaptor and the smoke belches out with vigour. You do have to be aware that any changes you do make will have an effect on the damper position when trying to duplicate previous roasts of a given coffee.
> 
> @NAJB had a plate made up to replace the outlet connection at the cyclone in order to take a bigger bore pipe...something you may wish to consider? I plan to copy his lead at some point.
> 
> @Hasi is a is genned up on this, airflow and ducting is his line of work, so you may like to run some pictures and diagrams past him?
> 
> (QED!)


 Sorry @Batian - I didn't see your initial post between my own and Hasi's! Thanks for this input, too.


----------



## filthynines

@Hasi

You posted some order numbers for Thermosense a little while ago for the PT100 sensors. The quotation I've been given is on the following spec:

Pt100 Sensor Assemblies c/w Crimp Seal

Sheath Diameter : 3.0mm
Simplex / Duplex : Duplex
Probe Length : 50mm
Wiring Configuration : 3-Wire
Grade of Element : B
End Seal : Plain Crimp Seal
Extension Cable : 1.5 metres of 6 core PFA insulated and sheathed
stranded, 7/0.1mm diameter, conductors

Does that seem right to you? Thanks!


----------



## Hasi

looks fine to me ?


----------



## Hasi

filthynines said:


> @Hasi Question #637 - Can you show me a website that shows the in-line extractor fan you bought, please? Even if it's Austrian at least I'll have something to go off. Searching for "extractor fan" is not helping me!
> 
> Also, does it need to be rated for above 50 degrees c? I suspect not, but I guess I should check!


 I've got the smallest one, KSDF 125:


----------



## filthynines

Hasi said:


> looks fine to me ?


 Thanks mate. Is there a particular reason why 3-wire was chosen? Is it just that's what your datalogger takes?

edit: I'm going to take a more educated guess. Two wires = temperature only, but three = temperature plus measuring resistance of both wires on the assumption that the resistance is identical? Therefore higher accuracy?


----------



## Sr249

Hi,

Anyone roasting 1.2kg regularly to get an output of 1kg per roast?

I currently roast 1kg batches and try to target 1st crack at around 8 - 9min. It feels tricky to achieve this. I charge at 210C bean temp, no soaking and add air gradually, reduce some power at 200C in anticipation of 1C. 1C usually starts at around 9.40ish most times.

I'd love to get 1kg output per roast. @DaveC - I believe you've experimented charging 1.2kgs with no adjustments to profile and had great results but I believe it was on slower roasts. Would love to get some guidance and recommendations so that i don't waste any precious beans if at all possible 

Thanks!


----------



## DavecUK

Go for it, it'll be fine


----------



## Batian

@DavecUK

A few weeks ago I did the annual service and clean on the Amazon. This involved the exhaust pipe from machine to cyclone extractor fan being dissembled and scrubbed clean in soapy water and sunshine dried. The fan itself was removed, vanes brushed clean. Cyclone unit vacuumed etc.

The rear bearing was re greased as was the front bearing cup (wiped clean first). I used the same greases as last year and reported in this thread at length.

I pumped grease into the rear bearing until it was extruding liberally with new grease. I cleaned off the excess. The machine was then left as if it were 'post roast' with the back covers removed for a few days. I then wiped clear a dribble of grease from the rear bearing. I then did a 'post service commission' up to when the PIDs turned the heater off. The machine was left to cool in the prescribed manner to about 30C when pulley and fan were switched off. There was a slight run of grease from the rear bearing which was cleaned away and the machine was re assembled ready for work.

A few days later I roasted. Heat up was as expected. Coffee went in. Steam appeared earlier than usual from front top left and back of the machine, but I was half expecting that due to the pipe and fan cleaning etc.

BUT all through the roast (6kg in total ) I was getting steam wafting out of the rear covers.

So mid stream, I removed the top rear cover (yes I remembered the fan belt and pulley!) and using a penlight torch I could see steam coming from the upper central area of the bearing. I am not sure if it was from between the bearing and back plate or the front centre of the bearing. Again there was a dribble of grease.

The machine was making all its usual sounds.

My first thoughts were that as it had been a wet and cold few weeks, damp had entered the machine whilst it had been left open and without the rear covers. I thought that heat and time would rectify the matter.

However, today, I got the same results. I only did 2 roasts. Steam (and need to open SD) came nearly 2 minutes earlier than I would have expected, and following the opening of SD to 1 or 2 cm it stopped the main flow of steam but still had this slight wafting from the vents.

Also, it would be usual to see steam from the flexible exhaust for a short period---there has been none. I can feel the air coming out of the exhaust and it belches smoke with vigour when expected.

The two beans seemed to have roasted well as did the session a couple of weeks ago. See 'Todays Roast' https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/10944-todays-roast/page/46/?tab=comments#comment-729137

So what have I done wrong?


----------



## DavecUK

I searched for 20m on phone couldn't find the post... Gave up. What lubricants did you use?


----------



## Batian

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/24894-its-that-time-of-year-again-new-roaster-coming-on-test/page/17/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=658391&embedComment=658391&embedDo=findComment#comment-658391

So that's CG90 to the front 'cup' and Molykote 44 to the rear bearing.

Thank you.


----------



## DavecUK

Wrong product for rear bearing, Molykote 44 is no good for that application. Buy the stuff I recommended in my maintenance video. The MK is flashing off, once it stops that's not good. It may also harden in place or gunge up. Get what I recommend in there as soon as you can. I never had any problems like that.

I'm not on commission or anything...


----------



## Batian

Thanks.

I was following your advice on a post in this forum and using Molykote44. I think this may have been prior to your video, but by then I was many £s out of pocket with various grease guns and wrong greases and thought I now had one of your recommendations!

#338 refers

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/24894-its-that-time-of-year-again-new-roaster-coming-on-test/page/16/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=658147&embedComment=658147&embedDo=findComment#comment-658147

So now I should use something different and keep pumping until all of the 'old' grease is pushed out?

@DavecUK


----------



## DavecUK

Batian said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I was following your advice on a post in this forum and using Molykote44. I think this may have been prior to your video, but by then I was many £s out of pocket with various grease guns and wrong greases and thought I now had one of your recommendations!
> 
> #338 refers
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/24894-its-that-time-of-year-again-new-roaster-coming-on-test/page/16/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=658147&embedComment=658147&embedDo=findComment#comment-658147
> 
> So now I should use something different and keep pumping until all of the 'old' grease is pushed out?
> 
> @DavecUK


 It was prior to my video yes and I measured the back bearing with a thermocouple it gets a bit hotter than I thought after a while. Plus I'm pretty sure the Molykote stuff is ambitious about its temperature recommendations. I even looked up my old high temp stuff and found that it might cook on/go dry at high continuous temps. I forgot all about the post (hard to find things now). However, I did the maintenance video not so long ago with what I believe are better lubes. The Ambergrease product doesn't tend to leave a hard residue.

I pumped until I had pushed all my old grease out.

It's my recommendation anyway in the absence of anything better and it's been real good since I put it in. The front "sel lubricating" bush with the CG90 or PTFE enhanced dry lube will be fine, but that rear bearing seems to be just a standard roller. The loading on it is small because of the high loaded bush at the front, but you would still want a nice residue free lube in the races.

If it does ever go, it's not the end of the world, and I am sure you could easily drift a nice SKF bearing in there in no time at all....but I like to avoid having to do things like that by having good and regular maintenance. I do check what I am doing from time to time and update my routines, I just don't always tell anyone


----------



## Batian

Thanks. Toolkit to the ready as soon as I have the new grease.


----------



## DavecUK

I also felt more comfortable using food safe grease. I know theres no real chance of contamination, but as it will do the job!


----------



## Antepic

Hi

I'm fairly new to roasting and have been experimenting with a Gene Cafe since last year. When the opportunity to get my hands on a Dalian Amazon came up I jumped at it, as I was aware of the work that went it to it by Dave and BB.

It arrived this week and I'm super impressed. I do however think the air temp is not behaving and I'm not sure why? Roasting temp looks to have been set at 194 and Air temp at 240, pretty much as the guide says. However, when I heated the roaster up, the roast temp hit 194 within 15 mins but the Air temp barely broke 100? The machine roasted almost identically to the quick start guide with 1kg of Santos but the highest air temp was only 150 after. Any ideas?

There looks like there is a therma gauge of some sort tapped into a spring next to the tryer. Perhaps this is a gauge that has bypassed the air temp or is somehow reading instead of it?( I didn't have the plugs to plug it in) Not sure why that would be but for some reason the main air temp is way off?

Thanks in advance for your help!


----------



## Batian

Do you have the manuals (author DavecUK) that would have originally come with the machine? Invaluable.

From your description this is the 'spare' temperature sensor that can be plugged into a PC or other device to read the temperature at that part of the drum. The air temperature sensor that sends to the right hand PID is at the back of the drum behind the removable cover.

When I received my machine, the AT sensor failed on the second roasting session. I think it just went up to 100 on the PID which then cut out the heater.

BB sent out a new one under warranty.

However the Air emperatureT PID failed ("NEVER HAPPENS!") shortly after the new temperature sensor was fitted. I suspect that the two incidents were connected. This was also replaced under warranty and there have been no problems since (touch wood) and 250kgs or so roasted.

So you may have similar problems. BB keep a stock of the correct replacement thermocouple and PIDs or find posts on this forum to get alternatives.


----------



## DavecUK

How do you use your dampers during warm up and during the roast. Have you check the settings of the AT controller as they may have been changed


----------



## Antepic

DavecUK said:


> How do you use your dampers during warm up and during the roast. Have you check the settings of the AT controller as they may have been changed


 Hi Dave, I stuck to the instructions as closely as possible for the heating up. I immediately noticed the left side increase but the right was stuck at 40 by the time the roasting temp was upto 195. I didn't go into the settings as pressing 'set' showed the temps as only 1 degree out from the instruction so assumed someone has tweaked it.


----------



## DavecUK

I can't remember what I wrote, indulge me by telling me how you used tha dampers during warmup and roasting.


----------



## filthynines

Beeroclock said:


> the only problem I see there is the temperature range is -40 to +100 so may not be suitable....


 Hey @Beeroclock, how did you get on with this? Having a similar headache at the moment myself.


----------



## Antepic

DavecUK said:


> I can't remember what I wrote, indulge me by telling me how you used tha dampers during warmup and roasting.


 Thanks both for the comments. Warmed up over 30 mins. Cool Air slider out fully. Smoke Damper fully in until after about 20 mins of little action on the Roast Temp I pulled the damper out 2cm. This pic was taken around 30 mins. I popped the SD back in as I didn't think it was doing much. Roasted the batch as example 1 in the quick start with the SD out 1cm after 4mins and then 3cm through FC. Roast time was 11:50 which I didn't feel was too bad for first go.?

Thanks for the help.


----------



## Antepic

Batian said:


> Do you have the manuals (author DavecUK) that would have originally come with the machine? Invaluable.
> 
> From your description this is the 'spare' temperature sensor that can be plugged into a PC or other device to read the temperature at that part of the drum. The air temperature sensor that sends to the right hand PID is at the back of the drum behind the removable cover.
> 
> When I received my machine, the AT sensor failed on the second roasting session. I think it just went up to 100 on the PID which then cut out the heater.
> 
> BB sent out a new one under warranty.
> 
> However the Air emperatureT PID failed ("NEVER HAPPENS!") shortly after the new temperature sensor was fitted. I suspect that the two incidents were connected. This was also replaced under warranty and there have been no problems since (touch wood) and 250kgs or so roasted.
> 
> So you may have similar problems. BB keep a stock of the correct replacement thermocouple and PIDs or find posts on this forum to get alternatives.


 Thanks Batian, I bought the roaster second hand. Seems in excellent condition and I know it's not had heavy use. All manuals were with it. Does sound like something might be out with that panel though, I'm sure I could speak to BB anyway but probs not within warranty. ?


----------



## DavecUK

When warming up give it 10 minutes with the SD in and air slider fully out, then move the smoke damper out 2CM for the remaining 15 minutes or more in summer perhaps 20+ in winter. Try not to leave the SD fully closed for 20 minutes!

Remember it's not properly warm for at least the first roast....


----------



## RDC8

Based on my own experience, during the warm up phase, I actually have the CA closed and the SD open at the 1st mark. It's not what the manual says, but it works for me. I normally get to around 180 on the RT and 220 on the AT after about 20 minutes. Also - there are three user manuals written by Dave C, Do you have all of them?

Keep asking questions and sharing what you are doing, there is lots of good advice to be had here


----------



## Beeroclock

filthynines said:


> Hey @Beeroclock, how did you get on with this? Having a similar headache at the moment myself.


 Are you referring to M6 pneumatic compression fittings from RS? If so, been running them no problem..

cheers Phil


----------



## filthynines

Beeroclock said:


> Are you referring to M6 pneumatic compression fittings from RS? If so, been running them no problem..
> 
> cheers Phil


 I certainly was - thanks very much!


----------



## Adav92

Hi all, I have a question about the Dalian Amazon I hope someone may be able to help me with. I live in a terraced house with a small garden and shed, within a very residential area. I previously roasted in my garden or shed with a Gene Cafe and I want to make the 'step up'. I am really keen to purchase a Dalian Amazon, but I fear smoke will be a problem, especially with the neighbours. Can anyone give me a rough idea on how viable roasting in a shed with a Dalian will be? The size of the roaster is definitely not an issue, however, is it significantly more 'smoke producing' than a gene cafe? (I presume its proportional, but I am aware some roasters have smoke suppression). Thanks!


----------



## Batian

The amount of smoke is proportionate. It happens in the final stages of roasting amount and duration accordingly coupled with coffee type. So perhaps 3/4 minutes of varying amounts?

It's not excessive (in my opinion) with the Amazon 1kilo roaster, but it is there. I would compare it to a BBQ, only for shorter bursts.

Perhaps chat with the neighbours to tell them your plans, roast at times when it is less likely to offend and remind them of the BBQ analogy (!) and offer to roast share (at reasonable costs) with them?

That should smooth any troubled waters.


----------



## filthynines

In my experience it's more than a BBQ, albeit for short bursts. I spent a bit of time considering how to better ventilate my own shed, and ultimately we've instead rented premises on an industrial estate. My neighbours didn't complain and said they didn't smell anything, but I really find that hard to believe. I stood by my house and could clearly smell and see the smoke.


----------



## Rob1

It smells good from the gene, does it stop smelling good in larger quantities?

@filthynines where are you storing the greens and what size unit did you get? I've been looking at small ones for 4k p/a.


----------



## filthynines

Rob1 said:


> It smells good from the gene, does it stop smelling good in larger quantities?
> 
> @filthynines where are you storing the greens and what size unit did you get? I've been looking at small ones for 4k p/a.


 We bought some food safe storage tubs for greens. Our unit is 900 sqft and our rent is £565 pcm, plus insurance and service charge. It's competitive for where we are. We could work with much less than 900sqft now, but if/when we need a 7.5kg/15kg gas roaster then 900 sqft will be great still.


----------



## Antepic

Hi All,

I've ordered a few Kgs of Kenyan and Ethiopian to play with during lockdown.

I'm aware most of them are best at light to medium roast profiles, so I wondered if anyone had any tips or logs to help me get decent roast times whilst holding them back from getting too dark?

I'm still learning, so pulling the fruits and florals has been hit and miss with the Gene - hoping I can master getting them with better accuracy through the Dalian!

TIA!

Ant


----------



## Batian

Can you be a more specific with the beans year of harvest, origin and process. Somebody may have roasted them and be able to help.

Something to bear in mind is keep changes 'on the fly' gentle and avoid a gush of cold air if 1st C is approaching or happening. Be aware of the ambient temperature.

My own experience with new coffees is that although I may get an acceptable result first time, I tweak over another 4 roasts until I settle on a plan for the rest of the batch, always keeping options open for further tweaking as the weather changes!


----------



## Taylor

Hi All,

New to the forum and new to roasting but have been in the coffee scene locally for some years now.

I'd been wanting to branch into roasting for some time and was going to start this coming winter, but with lockdown in place and my cafe forced to close I got on the blower to Bella Barista and took delivery of a beautiful Dalian Amazon roaster - based on a lot of the great advice on this very post, so thank you all for the input!

If we get our cafe back up and running I'll need to be roasting 15-20kg / week and a little bit extra surplus for selling to customers - in the meantime though I've set up a little box on the side of my house where people can buy the coffee beans using an honesty box.

So far I've roasted 18kg, 16kg of a Brazilian semi-washed and today I did 2kg of a Nicaraguan SHG fully washed which seemed far easier to control then the Brazilian.

Really happy with the results so far, have attached 2 roast logs from today if anyone wants to offer some comments/tips - would be greatly appreciated! It's a home made spreadsheet which I think is recording the data right... well open to any criticism!

Thanks!

Andy


----------



## Taylor

I forgot to add the attachments...

View attachment 28.04.2020-Batch 1 - Nicaragua SHG.pdf

View attachment 28.04.2020- Brazil Batch 1.pdf


----------



## Antepic

Hi,

Had my Dalian up and running about 3 weeks now. I kept noticing that I had a build up of chaff below the cooler and loads more in the chamber behind the cooling air door. (Luckily I was pretty hot on vaccing after every session as I know it's pretty dangerous!) There was no chaff in the chaff draw at all which I found really weird. Upon further inspection it looks like the power may not be working to the fan. I'm not being really stupid and missing a switch am I? The main fan switch is always on in line with Dave's instructions.

I assume this fan in the mesh(pic below) should be working over time and drawing all the chaff into the draw? Anyone else have this problem and what is the likely cause. I have a friend who is a sparky who could probably get it going?

Thanks in advance.

Ant


----------



## Dotix

Looks your fan is damaged - on the same axle you have the upper unit that cools the motor and lower one that moves the air from the roaster.

The mesh is blocking the upper part and the fan - do you have any air flow at all?


----------



## Antepic

Hi,

Thanks for the reply.

It doesn't appear to have any flow at all. The fan doesn't seem to be obstructed at all but isn't spinning. Is it likely to be electrical or mechanical.

I'll try and get a video up.

Cheers


----------



## johnealey

@Antepic Could be electrical in that you may want to take a look at the, and please accept I may use the wrong term here, foil resister which is within the fan power box to the left of your picture. How long have you had this roaster, assuming new to you but pre used looking at one of the screws in the picture?

Am sure have detailed it within either this thread or within the much longer thread called something like "what's coming on test " and have listed the part numbers you could order from RS components.

This assumes that you have power to the fan control box but no further and also assumes the basics of having the fan unit electrically connected to the roaster.

As said above, if fan not working (and it should if all well) and should be on pretty much all of the time unless you deliberately turn off the fan as this provides the air through the drum as well as the cooling tray and without runs the risk of a chaff fire.

Parts from memory were about £10 so not major, if can find the post in question will post after this one unless @DavecUK able to remember off hand what part required or if am barking up the wrong tree.

Mine did exactly as you describe, quick change of resistor, all up and running again with a much higher airflow than before. IF am correct, you will be able to see if the rectangular resistor is malfunctioned as side will be blown out with heat damage. Takes seconds to have a look and not too costly a fix ( the fan assembly can be bought as a spare from BellaBarista if needed but would check the above first and save yourself a few pounds)

Obviously, don't open up any control panels without first disconnecting from the mains etc and practice safe electrical investigations (no licking of fingers to test if live etc  )

Hope you get it sorted

John


----------



## Antepic

Thanks for the help John!

I will do all of those things you suggest. I have a capable Electrician friend too, who I can ask if needs be but super grateful for pointing me in the right direction 👍


----------



## johnealey

Right @Antepic

Have found the link starting at post 225 on page 9 and over onto page 10 for both DaveCuk links and also RS links for components:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/24894-its-that-time-of-year-again-new-roaster-coming-on-test/?do=embed&comment=498448&embedComment=498448&embedDo=findComment

Hope it assists and please let us know how you get on

John

p.s. to go direct to post #225 click on the text johnealey replied to a topic then start from there


----------



## Antepic

Hi John,

Well thanks - looks like a pretty text book case. Here are my photos.....I'd say it's a clear bulge wouldn't you?

Cheers


----------



## Antepic

The Shanghai replacement in the post is for obvs reasons delayed until June. These are available from Amazon though.

I'm no sparky so wondered if you or Dave knew if it's the same? I'm looking for 1.5uf right or will 1.8 work? Loads out of stock - maybe it's all the Amazon owners stockpiling 😂


----------



## Batian

Just as a peripheral note....

Ensure the cyclone unit is connected (grounded) to the main part of the roaster by an earth strap. I remember some machines did not have the earth strap supplied on delivery.


----------



## scottybourn

hi all

has anyone tried putting a dimmer on the cyclone fan ? my thinking it would help more with getting air flow the same ? any thoughts ?


----------



## Batian

scottybourn said:


> hi all
> 
> has anyone tried putting a dimmer on the cyclone fan ? my thinking it would help more with getting air flow the same ? any thoughts ?


 I think this would be a hindrance rather than a help. As a given, the draw from the cyclone remains constant. Air flow is controlled by the positioning of the two dampers. Refer to the Davec instructions that came with the machine re their effect on each other.

By introducing a third variable, that would just be making it unnecessarily more complicated?


----------



## scottybourn

Batian said:


> I think this would be a hindrance rather than a help. As a given, the draw from the cyclone remains constant. Air flow is controlled by the positioning of the two dampers. Refer to the Davec instructions that came with the machine re their effect on each other.
> 
> By introducing a third variable, that would just be making it unnecessarily more complicated?


 you wouldn't have to move the dampers then as you could control the flow with the dimmer ? just I find the damper inconsistent that why I was thing of other options


----------



## Batian

That is what the dampers are for?

Are the dampers only inconsistent with a variance in the ambient and draughts around the roaster? Or is there something else that makes the dampers inconsistent? I have found that following the annual clean the cyclone draws more air as it is free of debris on the vanes and there is no build up in the pipe work. This requires adjustments from previous roasts of the same coffee particularly when the ambient has changed at the same time due to climate.

These will still be there if you do away with the damper control and rely solely on an electrical control of the fan? You will still have to adjust the draw of the fan appropriate to the inconsistencies of the ambient environment as you would with damper control.

It would also mean that when you wanted to use the cooling tray, you would have to open the cooling damper and close the SD and increase the current to the fan to maximise the cooling and then go back to fully opening the smoke damper and closing the cooling tray to make the control of the fan fully effective at regulating the flow through the drum and also lowering the fan speed? All this when you have just put a new charge of coffee in the drum, and, if using dampers alone, would have the smoke damper closed (and cooling damper fully open) to correct the initial drop in drum temperature etc etc

It may also affect the ability of the system to clear smoke effectively from the flexible exhaust pipe?

I am always in favour of new ideas, so why not try it and report back on how it affects the operation and the end result?

With practise, the roaster performs very well as it is made, without a need to complicate things! Are looking for a cure to a problem that is not actually there?


----------



## scottybourn

Batian said:


> That is what the dampers are for?
> 
> Are the dampers only inconsistent with a variance in the ambient and draughts around the roaster? Or is there something else that makes the dampers inconsistent? I have found that following the annual clean the cyclone draws more air as it is free of debris on the vanes and there is no build up in the pipe work. This requires adjustments from previous roasts of the same coffee particularly when the ambient has changed at the same time due to climate.
> 
> These will still be there if you do away with the damper control and rely solely on an electrical control of the fan? You will still have to adjust the draw of the fan appropriate to the inconsistencies of the ambient environment as you would with damper control.
> 
> It would also mean that when you wanted to use the cooling tray, you would have to open the cooling damper and close the SD and increase the current to the fan to maximise the cooling and then go back to fully opening the smoke damper and closing the cooling tray to make the control of the fan fully effective at regulating the flow through the drum and also lowering the fan speed? All this when you have just put a new charge of coffee in the drum, and, if using dampers alone, would have the smoke damper closed (and cooling damper fully open) to correct the initial drop in drum temperature etc etc
> 
> It may also affect the ability of the system to clear smoke effectively from the flexible exhaust pipe?
> 
> I am always in favour of new ideas, so why not try it and report back on how it affects the operation and the end result?
> 
> With practise, the roaster performs very well as it is made, without a need to complicate things! Are looking for a cure to a problem that is not actually there?


 iv been roasting with it for 2 yrs and iv been getting good results but im always looking to make them better , im asking as im not sure if it can be. wired up to do so , so that why iv ask the question


----------



## RDC8

Ok - so I may have "cooked" the Air Temp thermocouple. Got a bit of smoke out the back of the roaster last week, bit of a burning small, thought it might have been some chaff getting caught so dumped the roast early. Smoke and burning smell didnt return. However, since then AT readings are not behaving as I would expect (much lower that usual).

Pulled out the thermocouple today to take a closer look - photo attached.

Clear build-up of "crud" which I will clean off, but is there any way to test if it is working? If not, where is the best place to source a new one? (and whiat type? make and model).

Also - there is discolouration around the top of the back plate - photo attached. Is this normal wear and tear? or is there something i need to watch out for?

Any help and advice would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance


----------



## DavecUK

Clean up the sensor....nothing to worry about everything looks good.

Use the full cooling tray airflow roasting method and don't use the supplied vent tube with the roaster, use 100 or 120mm depending on length of run.


----------



## RDC8

Thanks Dave - appreciate your advice. Good to hear there's nothing to worry about. The sensor is still quite badly stained with coffee oils, any tips for removing the oils? or just leave it?

Swapped out the vent tube ages ago and now have a 100mm flexible aluminium duct going out the shed door.

Any thoughts for cleaning the sight glass? I thought if I removed the three allen bolts the entire housing would just pop out; but it didnt. Should it? I dont want to force anything but could always try levering it out if its supposed to come out.

Thanks again.


----------



## DavecUK

RDC8 said:


> 1. Thanks Dave - appreciate your advice. Good to hear there's nothing to worry about. The sensor is still quite badly stained with coffee oils, any tips for removing the oils? or just leave it?
> 
> 2. Swapped out the vent tube ages ago and now have a 100mm flexible aluminium duct going out the shed door.
> 
> 3. Any thoughts for cleaning the sight glass? I thought if I removed the three allen bolts the entire housing would just pop out; but it didnt. Should it? I dont want to force anything but could always try levering it out if its supposed to come out.


 1. Clean it with some gunk remover and a white scrubby sponge, you might have to soak it. Unless it's really crudded up if won't affect things.

2. The key is the length if it's 4 or 5ft great if it's 6-12 feet go 120 mm

3. Dunno why didn't it pop out, photo with 3 allen bolts and metal surround removed please. Logic would dictate that it was fitted and secured using that plate and 3 bolts....I've never needed to remove mine but I can't see any other way of doing it.


----------



## Peterpatter

Hi all,

I've recently become the proud owner of a 2nd hand Amazon Dalian. The original owner had it for less than a year and it had limited use. I still have to get to grips with the machine and have only done two roasts. @DavecUK 's guide to the machine has been immensely helpful, however i'm running into an issue I can't find any written guidance on. Basically i'm struggling to get the air temp to the recommended target. I have it set to 240, and roasting temp set to 195, however roasting temp reaches 195 long before air temp gets anywhere close to 240, the highest i've seen is 215.

I'm following the recommended settings for smoke damper and cooling air positions, and have also tried closing off cooling air some and opening up smoke damper a bit to see if that would help but it didn't. After the first roast I thought this might be an issue with the fan, so I took it apart and give it a thorough cleaning which did seem to help a bit, but still not reaching above 215 for air temp.

What are the likely causes of this issue? Inefficient fan? inaccurate readings from the air temp thermocouple? Power information for the last roast I did 247V/2582watts, ambient temperature 16c. After 30 mins of warm up Roasting temp - 195c Air Temp - 206c (SD- 2cm, CA- fully open). Air temp went to 167C 3 mins after drop, and only got back above 200C after 12 minutes.


----------



## Peterpatter

So perhaps my question above was a rather silly one, I went back and read through this entire thread more thoroughly (I'll admit, I hadn't read all 16 pages when I made the post above), and it seems the 'problem' I'm encountering may not be a problem at all. On page 8 or 9 @Choffter described how he was coming up against the same issue as me, and he even posted a roast log that looked very like one of my own roast logs. What I can conclude from the replies is to not focus too much on the Air temperature reading, and that the numbers given in the guide are not targets that you absolutely must achieve, it is better to focus on other things, like how the roast is progressing through changes in bean colour, what's coming out the vent, time of first crack etc, and to keep good roast logs. This has given me some relief as I continue to learn how to operate the machine in a consistent manner.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

@Peterpatter you could always reduce the presets - would that help? I was wondering what are people's presets. Mine came the original 195 BT and ET is 240. I found my roasting was far too quick so reduced to 191 and 232. Still the roasts compared to others are far too quick given other people's experience. FC sometimes 8 - 9 mins.

I'm also looking at adding the dimmer modification, which I believe @DavecUK wrote? When I last roasted my energy usage was 700W without heat, but as soon as heat applied it went to 2700W. Everything seems to roast way too fast so looking to reduce the wattage. I could try reducing the presets further? My CA is set to a constant 5 to allow more air through the roaster and I open the SD to 2/3 after a few minutes.

Thanks.


----------



## Choffter

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> @Peterpatter you could always reduce the presets - would that help? I was wondering what are people's presets. Mine came the original 195 BT and ET is 240. I found my roasting was far too quick so reduced to 191 and 232. Still the roasts compared to others are far too quick given other people's experience. FC sometimes 8 - 9 mins.
> I'm also looking at adding the dimmer modification, which I believe @DavecUK wrote? When I last roasted my energy usage was 700W without heat, but as soon as heat applied it went to 2700W. Everything seems to roast way too fast so looking to reduce the wattage. I could try reducing the presets further? My CA is set to a constant 5 to allow more air through the roaster and I open the SD to 2/3 after a few minutes.
> Thanks.


Hi @Dartmoor Coffee ; I now start with SD at 5 and CA at 1. I let the dalian cycle up to 195 then auto cut off, I wait until it goes down in temp and the cycles back up. I load beans at 195. After 4 mins I open SD up to 3, then at 6 mins I open SD up to 5, then open it up 1 for each minute passed there after. The minute first crack starts SD should almost be fully open. I have had great results with this method. It obviously varies a bit depending on bean, ambient temperature etc, but it's worth a go.

Also, what beans are you using? The older the bean the faster the roast (in my experience). The bigger the variety the longer to hit FC etc. So maybe a few variables other than just the roaster temp settings.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @Choffter, Thanks for your thoughts. Interesting your CA is almost closed. Have considered doing that myself yet, but not tested. Unless this a typo your SD is at 5 from start, then you take back to 3, and then back to 5. So what time do you normally hit FC? Must be around 8 minutes? And what is your average total roast time?

My bean age could be a problem. When Nordic Approach were closing their London warehouse I grabbed 2 60kg bags of Ethiopian coffee. One is 2016 and the other 2017 so getting old. Reason for this I had read you would use 40kg for testing (done about 20kg of testing so far) so not wanting to waste money on new coffee, I'd thought I would use older coffee to begin with.

BB gave me some 2019 coffee beans with the roaster, which I haven't used yet so might be interesting to try 1kg of that.

Thanks

Phil.


----------



## Choffter

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Hi @Choffter, Thanks for your thoughts. Interesting your CA is almost closed. Have considered doing that myself yet, but not tested. Unless this a typo your SD is at 5 from start, then you take back to 3, and then back to 5. So what time do you normally hit FC? Must be around 8 minutes? And what is your average total roast time?
> My bean age could be a problem. When Nordic Approach were closing their London warehouse I grabbed 2 60kg bags of Ethiopian coffee. One is 2016 and the other 2017 so getting old. Reason for this I had read you would use 40kg for testing (done about 20kg of testing so far) so not wanting to waste money on new coffee, I'd thought I would use older coffee to begin with.
> BB gave me some 2019 coffee beans with the roaster, which I haven't used yet so might be interesting to try 1kg of that.
> Thanks
> Phil.


Sorry @Dartmoor Coffee ; this was a typo. CA is 5 and SD is 1 to begin.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @Choffter, Ah that explains. So your CA is the same as mine, but you've kept your presets at the original.

Do you have a energy monitor so you know what watt's you're using especially with heating on?

Phil.


----------



## Choffter

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Hi @Choffter, Ah that explains. So your CA is the same as mine, but you've kept your presets at the original.
> Do you have a energy monitor so you know what watt's you're using especially with heating on?
> Phil.


----------



## Choffter

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Hi @Choffter, Ah that explains. So your CA is the same as mine, but you've kept your presets at the original.
> Do you have a energy monitor so you know what watt's you're using especially with heating on?
> Phil.


@Dartmoor Coffee ; I have. Been a while since I used it so will post after my next Roast.


----------



## CJV8

I recently added some temperature strips to my exhaust (roaster, not the car) as with the exit being out of site I wanted something to give me an indication of something going wrong in the exhaust should chaff escape the collector at all and ignite. Not being able to see the smoke production isn't ideal, but neither would trying to install a window in a 2 foot thick stone wall.

The temperature indicated in the photo was during the cooling cycle. The maximum it reached through the whole session was 50 degrees and that was when I initially started the cool down cycle.


----------



## RDC8

Soooo . after struggling to slow down the ROR in a few roasts recently, and noticing a fair amount of smoke coming from the back of the roaster rather than out through the exhaust, I wondered if I might have had an air-flow problem - maybe some stuck beans/chaff build up etc where I couldn't see. Vacuumed under the cooling tray and behind the CA damper to clear away chaff etc.

Anyway, Decided to inspect the impeller as well. So - here is the photographic evidence of why it is a good idea to clean this out from time to time:

Picture 1: the build-up cleared from between the impeller vanes

Picture 2: inside of the the housing before cleaning

Picture 3: Final pile of crud cleaned out

Its a wonder there was any air-flow at all!!!

Lesson learnt


----------



## johnealey

Just make sure you don't vacuum up the little balancing weight on one of the fan blades, will look brassy in colour and should leave an imprint where it normally sits, if you have dislodged it. Loss of this will unbalance your exhaust fan, so best not lost!

Once cleaned out, don't be too surprised to find all your previous damper settings are "out" so any profiles will need amending

John.


----------



## Rob1

Wow, what a mess. How many roasts was that? Have you cleaned the pipes out too?


----------



## RDC8

johnealey said:


> Just make sure you don't vacuum up the little balancing weight on one of the fan blades, will look brassy in colour and should leave an imprint where it normally sits, if you have dislodged it. Loss of this will unbalance your exhaust fan, so best not lost!
> 
> Once cleaned out, don't be too surprised to find all your previous damper settings are "out" so any profiles will need amending
> 
> John.


 Thanks John

The upside of needing to re-learn the damper settings is that I have three completely new coffees to try out, so there is not much un-learn 

I didn't notice a balancing weight - although one of the vanes did have what looked like a blob of solder on it. Would this be the balancing weight? It doesn't seem to come off. I did run the fan for a quick test once it was re-installed and didn't notice anything unusual about its operation. Will run a few test roasts today just to make sure.



Rob1 said:


> Wow, what a mess. How many roasts was that? Have you cleaned the pipes out too?


 Let me plead the 5th on that one! 

I haven't cleaned the pipes yet - but realise the need to do so. Looking for something suitable to do this. Do you have any suggestions? Was looking on the bay and found flue-cleaning kits which look like they might do the job.


----------



## johnealey

They may have replaced the little brass clip with a blob of solder since mine (was in the 2nd batch into BB). If it looks stable when running with no oscillation then should be fine.

Long handled toilet brush (fresh, unused of course) may be a local option for the stainless pipes and if still using the supplied flexi hose an opportunity to swap out for a 100mm one as per DaveCuk previous posts.

John


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

That's some serious dirt. How often do you think it needs to be cleaned out? Good thing to put on schedule.


----------



## Batian

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> That's some serious dirt. How often do you think it needs to be cleaned out? Good thing to put on schedule.


 That largely depends on how much coffee you are roasting.

I also have a memory that davecuk mentioned something about an increase is residues if the CD was not open all the time??????? I am sure there is something in the forum threads.

I do 5/7kg every 2 weeks. I clean the fan every 6 months -----and it probably could be done more often!


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Batian said:


> That largely depends on how much coffee you are roasting.
> 
> I also have a memory that davecuk mentioned something about an increase is residues if the CD was not open all the time??????? I am sure there is something in the forum threads.
> 
> I do 5/7kg every 2 weeks. I clean the fan every 6 months -----and it probably could be done more often!


 Morning, I'm not at that stage yet of quantity - done about 30kg overall. Fitting the power mod soon so think I will do a deep clean all at once.


----------



## CarloScarito

Hi all,

New to the forum, but not at all new to the Dalian Amazon. I've had mine for 3 years now, and it's nothing short of fantastic!

I use it for a small roasting business in Milton Keynes and it has served me so well.

Now, at the beginning of last lockdown, I started to think about modifications, because as of yet, I haven't done any. I aim to do dimmer mod, which isn't any trouble. The trouble I'm having is I want to change the thermocouples, for more responsive ones and link to software.

I've read literally every post in this forum, and it has come in so handy already. Though, I have no experience in rewiring , and feel very nervous about doing so with the probes. I was considering ordering a customs K-Type, and switching the current BT probe into the K-Type position for a quick and easy workaround.

Do any of you have any step by step guides or photos/vids of the full switch of probes?

Any help would be really amazing.

Carlo


----------



## RDC8

Hiya

Can't help you with the dimmer mod as I don't use one.

However, I have just added an extra thermocouple and logging software, so can offer a few insights.

My approach was to remove a bolt from the sight-glass and insert a 3mm k-type probe through the hole directly into the bean mass. I am not convinced that the existing holes in the face-plate are in the best place to get a bean mass reading. Another option is to drill through one of the bolts which is in the hinge of the roaster door and insert the probe there.

The thermocouple is wired into a phidget 1048 temperature sensor which provides the USB output for my laptop. I am using artisan software as my roast logger.

There are other options available. this thread is quite informative and includes a few pics of how others have set up their probes.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48344-artisanroastlogger-and-amazon-dalian/?do=embed#comments

I have left the existing probes in place connected to the Ewelly controllers as a safety precaution. No rewiring needed 

I am having to re-learn a few things as the thinner probe is much more responsive, and I think more accurate. I am now able to better see and understand the impact of opening/closing the dampers.

Best of luck; ask questions and keep us updated.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

For the power mod you can download the pdf here:

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/amazon-dalian-roaster-power-control-mod.

I'm not an expert with electrics, but the guide is clear and I just took my time. It says 30 mins to do, but I took a lot longer. I also kept the original wire (without clippng) so if I want to remove the power mod I can just wire it as original and all you have is a hole in the back panel. I also bought some heat protected sleeving so that internally the cable is protected from heat.

Phil.


----------



## Aquila

In addition to Carlo's question; 
- how many TC's are needed for a proper working Artisan roast-software?
only BT and AT? And ET nice to have? Or just BT?
why does everyone use K-type Thermocouples instead of PT100? Phidget can also work with PT100. especially if you additionally mount it alongside your current Dalian probes with Ewelly.

The comparison seems easier to me, or is there a special reason for it?


----------



## CarloScarito

Thanks so much @RDC8and @Dartmoor Coffee already things seem so much clearer!

Just a couple of questions:

1) Did you end up needing to use a hollow bolt to keep the thermocouple? (Sight glass placement)

2) How deep did you place the probe in the end? Is there any reading difficulty if half of it isn't in the roaster?

Carlo


----------



## Rob1

The thermocouple tip is at the tip of the sheathe. That's where the temp is measured. You'll want to make sure the tip is well in the bean mass.


----------



## CarloScarito

@Rob1 thanks for that! I had just read on artisan about having as much in as you can, and even potentially bending? Which sounds almost crazy to me.

Another two questions if nobody minds. Really appreciate the responses 🙏🏽

1) https://www.active-robots.com/k-type-probe-thermocouple-11cm.html I've seen this probe posted by a few people. It says it works with the Phidgets. The point of connection looks different to what I've seen on the Phidgets website. Will this one work?

2) Do I need an adaptor to connect the existing K-Type to the Phidget? Or, is it worth me getting an additional 3mm probe, and replacing. I guess I'd need an M12 adaptor to put into the current position.

Thanks again all.

Carlo


----------



## Rob1

If the only way you can get it into the bean mass is to bend it then do that. It's just metal. With the position around the sight glass or door hinge you won't have to bend it.

I haven't checked the current k type fitting size...seems easier to just leave it as is? For connecting it to the phidget just remove the connector or get a k-type thermocouple extension, wire that in to the phidget and the other end to a female plug for k type probes so you can plug/unplug from the phidget with ease. There's no need to replace that probe.

I don't know what those probe connections are but you could just cut them off and wire them into terminals of the tc phidget. I think they may actually be suitable to just connect straight into it though....


----------



## RDC8

@CarloScarito just to let you know that the 3mm probe will fit snugly into the sight-glass bolt-hole, no need to use a hollow bolt. If you choose to go through the door hinge with this probe then you will need a hollow bolt.

What sort of fitting is on the end of your spare k-type? Are there two prongs coming out of a yellow plastic plug? You can either cut the wires and strip back some of the insulating plastic, or alternatively the plug can be completely disassembled and the wires removed.

Hope this helps


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

@Aquila - not sure why people use k-types instead of pt-100. You only need BT to get the ROR line, but AT (I presume is the same as ET) can be useful. I just connected the pre-installed AT at the front of the Dalian. It is 5mm and temp lags, but when it fails I will get a 3mm version.

@CarloScarito - when you bend it I was advised to bend it around a cylinder object like a pen just to help get a nice curve.


----------



## Rob1

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> @Aquila - not sure why people use k-types instead of pt-100. You only need BT to get the ROR line, but AT (I presume is the same as ET) can be useful. I just connected the pre-installed AT at the front of the Dalian. It is 5mm and temp lags, but when it fails I will get a 3mm version.
> 
> @CarloScarito - when you bend it I was advised to bend it around a cylinder object like a pen just to help get a nice curve.


 Pt100 vs K type is an interesting though. On the one hand pt100 offer better accuracy, better stability, and are interchangeable. But they're more expensive too. K type are cheap and have a fast response time. In coffee roasting you can argue accuracy isn't really relevant as you're just looking for reference points and the fastest response time to temperature changes becomes beneficial.


----------



## Aquila

Rob1 said:


> Pt100 vs K type is an interesting though. On the one hand pt100 offer better accuracy, better stability, and are interchangeable. But they're more expensive too. K type are cheap and have a fast response time. In coffee roasting you can argue accuracy isn't really relevant as you're just looking for reference points and the fastest response time to temperature changes becomes beneficial.


 @Dartmore Coffee And @Rob1

thanks for reply, I was wondering if it mattered to the Artisan software. can imagine that a fast-responding probe gives a more restless picture. I'm orienting myself to attach a parallel measuring system with Artisan without dismantling the original machine. 😉


----------



## johnealey

@Aquila

If your concern is about speed of response in Artisan I wouldn't worry too much as you are most likely to apply some from of smoothing to the data (within Artisan) so as to get anything close to a curve. Use whatever type suits as long as you leave the connection to the onboard PID's alone as they control the operation of the roaster itself along with the safety features of cutting supply to heater when too hot etc. You could go down the route of dual sensor's as a couple have done on here which leave the onboard devices alone and gives feeds out to whatever you using as a bridge to Artisan.

You can also choose device>manual within Artisan and punch the numbers in yourself for AT / BT, just a thought and once you get your head round it, can drop figures in easily at 30 second intervals or even 15-20 if dextrous. If you do this whilst researching the differing methods above of direct connection will give you a baseline to work from noting without significant work the Dalian is pretty much a hands on machine, especially when talking about the air dampers so any form of auto roasting / auto curve following is not as easy as say on a machine set up to do so (think coffee tech Fz-94, giesen etc)

Hope of help and happy roasting 

John


----------



## CarloScarito

Hey guys,

Just wanted to say a big thanks for all your help!

I installed a Phidget 1101 and VINT hub, bought a 3mm probe for bean temp and used the existing K Type for environmental temp. Set up was really straightforward in the end haha! I also installed the dimmer with no issues at all.

But wow, what a difference! Having that data there live is so useful. Time to relearn a few things. Before I never realised how much of an impact the dampers have.


----------



## Johnny Ess

Did you go through the sight glass hole or the door hinge?
cheers


----------



## Johnny Ess

Can anyone recommend a k-type 3mm probe? length And brand/website?

much appreciated


----------



## CarloScarito

Hey @Johnny EssI went through the sight glass.

This is the probe I got https://www.active-robots.com/k-type-probe-thermocouple-11cm.html it's also where I got the Phidget and everything else

it fits very snug via sight glass!


----------



## Johnny Ess

CarloScarito said:


> Hey @Johnny EssI went through the sight glass.
> 
> This is the probe I got https://www.active-robots.com/k-type-probe-thermocouple-11cm.html it's also where I got the Phidget and everything else
> 
> it fits very snug via sight glass!


 Thanks, and the sight glass is ok without the screw holding it in place?

The other thing to consider is that I was going to go for a probe rated up to. 250 Celsius rather than more such as 400. The reason being that maybe it will be more accurate as its working exactly in the range its designed for . just a thought anyway.


----------



## Johnny Ess

CJV8 said:


> I recently added some temperature strips to my exhaust (roaster, not the car) as with the exit being out of site I wanted something to give me an indication of something going wrong in the exhaust should chaff escape the collector at all and ignite. Not being able to see the smoke production isn't ideal, but neither would trying to install a window in a 2 foot thick stone wall.
> 
> The temperature indicated in the photo was during the cooling cycle. The maximum it reached through the whole session was 50 degrees and that was when I initially started the cool down cycle.
> 
> View attachment 44270


 As an alternative, I'm going for a temperature gun which will cost the same as couple of these strips. It can also be used to check the temperature of the rest of the setup.


----------



## Rob1

EDIT: Nevermind.


----------



## preslik

Hi everone

I would like to roast Ethiopia-Guji Dikitu coffee.I don't have any experience with natural processed ones.

I am open for any suggestions 🙂

Thanks

Dominik


----------



## DavecUK

Don't use any more heat than you need to get first crack and definitely don't rush the roast and force 1st early. Once 1st has started get the heat off an pull enough air to prevent it rising too high. Once you know when 1st comes get the heat off before it starts and let it coast into 1st.


----------



## Sr249

DavecUK said:


> Don't use any more heat than you need to get first crack and definitely don't rush the roast and force 1st early. Once 1st has started get the heat off an pull enough air to prevent it rising too high. Once you know when 1st comes get the heat off before it starts and let it coast into 1st.


 @DavecUK What batch size do you most frequently use nowadays pls?


----------



## DavecUK

1kg


----------



## preslik

DavecUK said:


> Don't use any more heat than you need to get first crack and definitely don't rush the roast and force 1st early. Once 1st has started get the heat off an pull enough air to prevent it rising too high. Once you know when 1st comes get the heat off before it starts and let it coast into 1st.


 Thanks Dave

What time would you suggest for 1kg batch ?


----------



## DavecUK

preslik said:


> Thanks Dave
> 
> What time would you suggest for 1kg batch ?


 I don't know, depends on too many unknowns...


----------



## Rob1

I've been really impressed with the quality of the roasts from the Dalian. The seasoning roast took balls to take 1.2kg coffee through second crack until a fire was imminent but the control was impressive and there wasn't any chipping to the beans and as it progressed there was no sign of scorching or tipping despite the high temperature and speed of the roast. 13 minutes in total.

One thing I will say is airflow was low with the supplied hose and I would need to double the damper settings from Dave's guide to get the desired effect.

I'm thinking of getting a smaller cyclone to filter the smoke with water. The "Vortxkleanair" is an incredibly expensive water cyclone that cleans much of the smoke output of the roaster. I'm thinking you could very easily make one yourself with very little expense. My only concern is messing up the airflow.


----------



## Beeroclock

Rob1 said:


> I've been really impressed with the quality of the roasts from the Dalian. The seasoning roast took balls to take 1.2kg coffee through second crack until a fire was imminent but the control was impressive and there wasn't any chipping to the beans and as it progressed there was no sign of scorching or tipping despite the high temperature and speed of the roast. 13 minutes in total.
> 
> One thing I will say is airflow was low with the supplied hose and I would need to double the damper settings from Dave's guide to get the desired effect.
> 
> I'm thinking of getting a smaller cyclone to filter the smoke with water. The "Vortxkleanair" is an incredibly expensive water cyclone that cleans much of the smoke output of the roaster. I'm thinking you could very easily make one yourself with very little expense. My only concern is messing up the airflow.


 Don't know if you're running Phidgets Rob - but if you are - it's fairly easy to attach a differential air pressure 1136 sensor to a VINT hub and get an accurate reading of ones airflow, or connect it to a Magnehelic..

Cheers Phil


----------



## Rob1

Beeroclock said:


> Don't know if you're running Phidgets Rob - but if you are - it's fairly easy to attach a differential air pressure 1136 sensor to a VINT hub and get an accurate reading of ones airflow, or connect it to a Magnehelic..
> 
> Cheers Phil


 Thanks, had a look at it but the active-robots page has this warning: "*This sensor is designed to measure the pressure of clean, non-condensing air. Contact with moist air (i.e, human breath), dusty air, or other gases can damage the sensor.*"


----------



## Beeroclock

Hi Rob

remember you're measuring negative air pressure in the drum, but I've installed a cheap fuel filter in the path to be sure.









There are a number of people over on HB who have installed these..

I recently redid my exhaust flue and installed twin wall stainless steel flue straight run up and out through a flat roof. 
This really helped me to judge how my airflow was affected.

It's also handy to see what's happening when roasting on a windy day. How is one's exhaust being affected? I was definitely getting a backdraft issue on occasions. Now have a proper Swedish Cowl - much more stable.








Cheers Phil


----------



## Rob1

I don't think I'd need another fan at all. Could either modify the existing cyclone with spray nozzles and a water pump with simple circulation and mesh filtration in place or I could get a small plastic cyclone and just vent to that instead of outside, allowing the smoke to slowly release outside as it's scrubbed. The vortx seems to be able to work either as a cyclone with a fan installed or after a fan with just flue. The existing cyclone looks like it's just bolted on to a chaff collection drawer so if it comes off that it could easily sit in a bucket with a hole cut in it for the water circulation. Worst case scenario, it doesn't work and I waste about £100 on parts and have to plug a few small holes on the cyclone with bolts.


----------



## RDC8

Having some issues roasting a natural Brasil (one key not working on keyboard - guess which one!!!) so could do with your collective wisdom. It's not my first natural from brasil, but can't seem to get on top of this one. Could do with learning from other Dalian users who have experience with roasting low-grown naturals

Problem is with charring the chaff/silver-skin. The beans themselves are fine, its just the silverskin/chaff remaining on the bean.

started with a medium charge temp and kept the RoR down - but it took 13 minutes to get to 1st, dropped at 16:33, with weight loss of 15.8%. Killed power completely about 45 seconds into 1st and just coasted the rest of the way. Tasted baked.

So next batch charged higher to get the momentum going, but started pulling more air earlier. Got to first at 10:48 and dropped at 14:00. (23% in the third phase,drop temp 221, weight loss 16.1%)

Third batch, dropped the charge temp, but kept more heat in the roaster. Hit 1st at 9:39 and dropped at 12:27 (22% in third phase, drop temp 219, weight loss 16.2%)

Charge weight of all batches is 1kg

I don't have a roast colour analyser device so cant give any insights there.

I'm aiming for a dark-medium roast to avoid under-development.

In all cases there is noticeable scorching/charring on the silverskin which doesnt want to come away from the bean (unlike a natural Uganda that I have which sheds its chaff willingly!)

The taste of the second roast is ok'sh, - havent cupped the last roast yet.

Any ideas on how to avoid the scorching would be appreciated

Thanks


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @RDC8, Any joys on this yet? I've not picked up the coffee from Phil yet so cannot comment.

Phil.


----------



## DavecUK

@RDC8If you have a bean where the chaff is reluctant to come off....even with the "rougher" perforated drum of the Dalian, you can try:



Find the chaff release temperature for the bean


Ramp it reasonably quickly to that temperature (not too fast) then go slower using more air, so it ramps slower through that zone


Pick up the pace again to first, ensuring enough air is being pulled to clear chaff, be careful not to use too much element power, so the chaff can fall off before scorching.


This might give you the extra time during that phase to rub more of the chaff off.* I have assumed that you have done the power control modification. *Reducing the radiant heat to the beans whilst lowering airflow slightly to maintain the rate of rise can often help with chaff scorching....In fact rather than the strategy above, all you may need to do is reduce power by a few 100W and reduce airflow to maintain the profile.


----------



## Beeroclock

Hi Rodney

did my first roast of the Brazil today - I basically used the same profile as the Bom Jesus, but it will need a tweek as I was slightly off with my "gas dip". It's easy charr the seams of Brazil if you're carrying too much heat. The Bom Jesus (love that bean) is a little more forgiving than some as perhaps due to it's slightly higher altitude.

This Brazil Furnas will probably have a little more "fruit" than the Bom Jesus and did doesn't roast as even.

Anyway here's my profile - I tend to soak my low grown naturals for a 1 to 1 1/2 mins with low air and then let the beans absorb the heat from the drum - I also charge 15 to 10 degrees lower. But after soak I give the beans a good wack of heat, but make sure I'm bringing this down before dry end.

I'm also attaching a picture of the beans - but the light was not daylight balanced..

I also did my first batch of the Colombia Manos Juntas - roasted really nicely - I have high hope for that one, Mill City cupped it at 89.25

















cheers Phil


----------



## RDC8

Put through another batch this afternoon at an even lower charge temp. Much happier with the result; no scorching in the seams, and significantly reduced charring of the silverskin. Still not all coming off completely - I dont have the power mod @DavecUK - maybe i need to consider just doing it!

Profile below @Beeroclock; remarkably similar to yours Phil, though an earlier and lower TP which is probably down to you being able to do the "soak" (not sure if that is translatable to the Dalian). I still need to tame that small flick just after 1st. (Also just installed a second probe inside the drum to measure ET)

Just need to cup this roast tomorrow/tuesday and then try it as an espresso after Christmas to see how it compares.

Haven't tried the Colombian yet - leaving that until the new year! Glad to hear it roasted well for you.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @RDC8 Rodney, Very interesting and thanks for posting the profile. Do you have a power saving module so you know how many watts you are drawing? Means I can take a look at what you've done and compare for myself. Am picking up the Brazilian from Phil on Wednesday so will be able to do some testing myself.

Please let us know how the cupping goes.

Phil.


----------



## Beeroclock

That profile looks much better Rodney. You should definitely get on with adding the power control mod, It's always better to control ROR with heat first if you can. Should also help with your between batch protocol.

One thing I was going to ask you is what you're doing with your environmental temp now that it's a lot cooler? I've started measuring out my loads the day before and bringing them out of the garage into the house - so they're 18c when they get charged. Also make sure that the garage is warm before roasting, with a fan heater. Pointed in the direct of the roaster. That way the air being drawn in is warmer.

cheers Phil


----------



## RDC8

@Dartmoor Coffee - I don't have the power mod. But I do have the roaster plugged into a meter so that I can keep an eye on the wattage. It's not something I currently record, but the draw tends to fluctuate between 2250w and 2350w. It has on the odd occasion dropped closer to the 2200 point, but I don't recall it every dropping below 2200.


----------



## RDC8

@Beeroclock - interesting question about roasting in the colder environment. It has certainly been a challenge! First week in December I was roasting in temperatures of around 3.5c, although it has been quite a bit warmer this week (up around 10c in my shed). As I'm currently pretty much roasting to order I don't have a lot of advance notice for bringing greens into the house to warm up.

My approach has been to increase the charge temp by around 5-10c to compensate for the colder beans - this was suggested to me by another "pro" roaster. Most of my beans seem to cope with the extra heat - except for this Brazil Furnas!

I do like the idea of aiming a fan heater at the roaster to warm up the air being drawn in, although with only a single power cable running to the shed I'm a bit reluctant to put another high-load device on the same circuit. I guess there's no harm in trying.


----------



## Ted_Kent

RDC8 said:


> Put through another batch this afternoon at an even lower charge temp. Much happier with the result; no scorching in the seams, and significantly reduced charring of the silverskin. Still not all coming off completely - I dont have the power mod @DavecUK - maybe i need to consider just doing it!
> Profile below @Beeroclock; remarkably similar to yours Phil, though an earlier and lower TP which is probably down to you being able to do the "soak" (not sure if that is translatable to the Dalian). I still need to tame that small flick just after 1st. (Also just installed a second probe inside the drum to measure ET)
> Just need to cup this roast tomorrow/tuesday and then try it as an espresso after Christmas to see how it compares.
> Haven't tried the Colombian yet - leaving that until the new year! Glad to hear it roasted well for you.
> 
> <img alt="389202348_Furnasprofile.thumb.jpg.5e5142e519db1f28d3705f60cd6fa11b.jpg" data-fileid="49958" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2020_12/389202348_Furnasprofile.thumb.jpg.5e5142e519db1f28d3705f60cd6fa11b.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


Quick question for you, how do you get the SD and CA adjustments to show up stepped? When I adjust mine and log it, they all just show at the bottom of the screen in a line. Equally tagging them to the temp line seems a good idea as well.

I'm guessing its in events but I'm missing what I need to click.


----------



## Antepic

Hi, just after some advice about connecting my Dalian Amazon up to Artisan (or any progs you might recommend for logging)

There is a probe coming out of the roaster situated next to the main temp gauge dial on and gives an accurate air temp reading on a grey Blue Therm Duo unit rather than the red RHS display. Images attached.

Do I simply need a USB lead to connect from the the Blue Therm (2nd pic) into my Mac? I tried this once but Artisan didn't seem to recognise it? Im.pretty sure the probe part is correct but perhaps I need to plug the probe into a different bit of kit?

Many thanks


----------



## RDC8

Ted_Kent said:


> Quick question for you, how do you get the SD and CA adjustments to show up stepped? When I adjust mine and log it, they all just show at the bottom of the screen in a line. Equally tagging them to the temp line seems a good idea as well.
> 
> I'm guessing its in events but I'm missing what I need to click.


 I eventually got there through trial and error - showing my events settings below:

So, yes CA and SD are set up as events and set the Markers option to step+. Then I have 4 buttons to mark each of the CA/CD events: single increase/decrease and double increase/decrease (ie pulling out/pushing in one/two cm at a time). So each of the buttons adds/subtracts 1 or 2 from the current "event" value.

I have also set up the CA and SD events as sliders so that I can quickly re-set the starting values before each roast.

And finally the annotation script to show the value of each event when it happens.

Hope this makes sense

As I said, trial and error to get to this point so if anyone else has found a better way to do this then please chime in.

Also - I set the minimum of the Y axis to 70 - not sure if this has mode a difference or not.

And


----------



## Ted_Kent

RDC8 said:


> I eventually got there through trial and error - showing my events settings below:
> So, yes CA and SD are set up as events and set the Markers option to step+. Then I have 4 buttons to mark each of the CA/CD events: single increase/decrease and double increase/decrease (ie pulling out/pushing in one/two cm at a time). So each of the buttons adds/subtracts 1 or 2 from the current "event" value.
> I have also set up the CA and SD events as sliders so that I can quickly re-set the starting values before each roast.
> And finally the annotation script to show the value of each event when it happens.
> Hope this makes sense
> As I said, trial and error to get to this point so if anyone else has found a better way to do this then please chime in.
> Also - I set the minimum of the Y axis to 70 - not sure if this has mode a difference or not.
> 
> And
> 
> <img alt="1403165714_eventsconfig.thumb.png.fa63b73de9a8dea2f268eff88f947207.png" data-fileid="50405" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_01/1403165714_eventsconfig.thumb.png.fa63b73de9a8dea2f268eff88f947207.png" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="401778688_eventsconfig.thumb.png.f79dcdda2f765ac4b59d9a5433c52243.png" data-fileid="50406" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_01/401778688_eventsconfig.thumb.png.f79dcdda2f765ac4b59d9a5433c52243.png" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="1005042317_eventssliders.thumb.png.169b13c89f11ae13e0e358e88a486dd5.png" data-fileid="50407" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_01/1005042317_eventssliders.thumb.png.169b13c89f11ae13e0e358e88a486dd5.png" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="836876172_eventsannotations.thumb.png.0f376ce35cbc7427b872eaa0ef45b1c1.png" data-fileid="50408" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_01/836876172_eventsannotations.thumb.png.0f376ce35cbc7427b872eaa0ef45b1c1.png" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


Makes sense to me, appreciate your time to explain that and supply screenshots.

I have set up CA/SD 0-9 buttons but they take up quite a bit of space, i like the idea of your button setup. I have also set up a slider for the power mod 0-24, 0 being off and 24 being 2400w.

Great bit of software artisan, I've tried to learn as much as possible but it something I feel that I will never learn properly.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @RDC8, Thanks for that Rodney. I've manually been adding events after the roast to create the profile. Had tried briefly looking at sliders, but couldn't get them to nicely fit onto the roast form. Will take another look and compare with what you done above.

Phil.


----------



## RDC8

Thought it might be useful to show the screen layout that I am working with.

I recently set the button sie to "Tiny" but I think I will need to change it back. I am using a touch screen laptop and my fat fingers tend to hit the wrong button!

Oh, and when the "start" is pressed the default buttons will show (charge, dry-end,etc)


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @RDC8 - will take a look.

On another note regarding Artisan does anyone know if it is possible to display the BT temp while "Off". Currently I start logging, but when it nears charge temperature have to Reset the display. Would be great if I could display the BT temperature always and not just while logging.

Thanks

Phil.


----------



## Ted_Kent

Just finished setting the buttons up here, sorry for the camera shot rather than screen shot.

Everything seems to work nicely. Setup a mid point on the burn and off as flicking through any more than 3 or 4 settings is quite time consuming.


----------



## Beeroclock

Antepic said:


> Hi, just after some advice about connecting my Dalian Amazon up to Artisan (or any progs you might recommend for logging)
> 
> There is a probe coming out of the roaster situated next to the main temp gauge dial on and gives an accurate air temp reading on a grey Blue Therm Duo unit rather than the red RHS display. Images attached.
> 
> Do I simply need a USB lead to connect from the the Blue Therm (2nd pic) into my Mac? I tried this once but Artisan didn't seem to recognise it? Im.pretty sure the probe part is correct but perhaps I need to plug the probe into a different bit of kit?
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> View attachment 50401
> 
> 
> View attachment 50402
> 
> 
> View attachment 50404


 Not sure if Artisan is compatible with this device. When I had one with my Quest - I used it with Roastmaster on my iPad and used it via Bluetooth. 
If you want to go down the Artisan route - I'd suggest looking at a Phidgets set up with Vint Hub will allow more flexibility in the long run,


----------



## Ted_Kent

Antepic said:


> Hi, just after some advice about connecting my Dalian Amazon up to Artisan (or any progs you might recommend for logging)
> There is a probe coming out of the roaster situated next to the main temp gauge dial on and gives an accurate air temp reading on a grey Blue Therm Duo unit rather than the red RHS display. Images attached.
> Do I simply need a USB lead to connect from the the Blue Therm (2nd pic) into my Mac? I tried this once but Artisan didn't seem to recognise it? Im.pretty sure the probe part is correct but perhaps I need to plug the probe into a different bit of kit?
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> <img alt="IMG_20201125_180553.thumb.jpg.8e0b5e416e591385ba74b1e30827a9af.jpg" data-fileid="50401" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_01/IMG_20201125_180553.thumb.jpg.8e0b5e416e591385ba74b1e30827a9af.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="IMG_20201125_180607.thumb.jpg.330f2dc17ca52008aa678e461cd0e772.jpg" data-fileid="50402" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_01/IMG_20201125_180607.thumb.jpg.330f2dc17ca52008aa678e461cd0e772.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="IMG_20201125_180544.thumb.jpg.e29813ed067f82f15958b4fd2c8b118c.jpg" data-fileid="50404" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_01/IMG_20201125_180544.thumb.jpg.e29813ed067f82f15958b4fd2c8b118c.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


It will need some kind of setup in artisan (devices) but as per the above, unsure if the BlueTherm is compatible with Artisan.

When you tried it did you setup a device or just plug in? Equally did you turn Artisan on or just load it up?

After recently falling down the logging rabbit hole, I agree with the above and setting up a phidgets system. I've only done a few roasts now with the phidget setup but things make a bit more sense now, the factory PT100 sensors on my roaster don't seem very accurate or are too thick to react quick enough as they seem to be reporting FC way early (175c ish)

I still roast to my senses but the logging adds some learning for me and also gives me a system for batch traceability.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @RDC8, Bit of an odd question, but I've spent the evening looking at it and cannot find an answer. Thought I'd ask just in case I've missed something. Having spent the evening configuring Artisan and I've got a query with how the SD and CD values are displayed. I've configured them the same as yours, but on the display all my values are hugged to the bottom of the graph, whereas you have more clearly defined steps. Just finding mine is not clear. Do you have an additional setting set that allows the position of the CD and SD on the graph to appear differently?









Thanks

Phil.


----------



## RDC8

Ahhh ... yes, there was another setting which I now remember.

In the Axes dialog there is field "100% event step" which increases (or decreases) the visual representation of the event values as a proportion of the overall graph. I have mine set at 600. Screen shot below.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

RDC8 said:


> In the Axes dialog there is field "100% event step" which increases (or decreases) the visual representation of the event values as a proportion of the overall graph. I have mine set at 600. Screen shot below


 Perfect - thanks.


----------



## Rob1

Beeroclock said:


> Hi Rob
> 
> remember you're measuring negative air pressure in the drum, but I've installed a cheap fuel filter in the path to be sure.
> 
> View attachment 48979
> 
> 
> There are a number of people over on HB who have installed these..
> 
> I recently redid my exhaust flue and installed twin wall stainless steel flue straight run up and out through a flat roof.
> This really helped me to judge how my airflow was affected.
> 
> It's also handy to see what's happening when roasting on a windy day. How is one's exhaust being affected? I was definitely getting a backdraft issue on occasions. Now have a proper Swedish Cowl - much more stable.
> View attachment 48981
> 
> 
> Cheers Phil


 I've followed your lead and ordered the pressure sensor. I've been looking at in line filters on ebay and found a fair few but I'm want to order tubing to connect it all together. Specs for the pressure sensor suggest a 2.38mm fitting so I'll need a 2.38mm ID tube. I've found M5 barb connectors I'll be able to stick in place of one of the bolts on the face of the roaster and presumably I'll be looking for a female to male 2.38mm barb and I'll just have to match up the female connection to the barb of whatever I fit onto the roaster.....any chance you remember where you got your filter and connecting things from to save me time wading through the search results for the right stuff?


----------



## Beeroclock

Hi Rob

Fuel filters came from Amazon

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B07D9DBZB6?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

tube and adaptors I had from a job lot I bought with some Magnehelics off eBay.

I would look to get a feed off the bean chute and measure the air being pulled through the exhaust. But this would probably mean drilling and tapping a hole, which I appreciate you might not want to do.

cheers Phil


----------



## Rob1

To avoid drilling into the roaster I guess I could look into adding a small spacer to the top of the bean chute where the funnel with the stopper fits into that I could drill into and take off from there.


----------



## Beeroclock

I'm not sure exactly how the airflow works on the Dalian. I guess the best thing to do is try your least invasive options first and see if this gives you a reading you can work with.


----------



## RDC8

Hi All

What maximum charge temps are you comfortable with? (assuming you have installed a more sensitive probe into the drum rather than relying on the reading from the factory-supplied probe/ewelly readings).

I roast in an un-heated garage ,where my greens are stored also, and have been increasing my charge temps as the weather has been getting colder. However, I don't want to risk scorching the beans. I charged a roast at 198c earlier in the week, my hottest charge so far, but still struggled to achieve and maintain momentum. (This was for a high altitude, washed, Peru)

Could I safely go higher without scorching? Any thoughts/insights appreciated.

Happy to hear what non-Dalian users are doing also, but am aware that as it is electric powered, and has a perforated, single-layer drum, it may behave differently to other designs.

Thanks in advance


----------



## Ted_Kent

RDC8 said:


> Hi All
> What maximum charge temps are you comfortable with? (assuming you have installed a more sensitive probe into the drum rather than relying on the reading from the factory-supplied probe/ewelly readings).
> I roast in an un-heated garage ,where my greens are stored also, and have been increasing my charge temps as the weather has been getting colder. However, I don't want to risk scorching the beans. I charged a roast at 198c earlier in the week, my hottest charge so far, but still struggled to achieve and maintain momentum. (This was for a high altitude, washed, Peru)
> Could I safely go higher without scorching? Any thoughts/insights appreciated.
> Happy to hear what non-Dalian users are doing also, but am aware that as it is electric powered, and has a perforated, single-layer drum, it may behave differently to other designs.
> 
> Thanks in advance


I charged at 211 the other day (3mm phidget probe in door hinge) it was too hot but first roast with the phidgets setup and didn't have full trust in it. The pt100 was showing 170ish from memory at the same time.

No scorching so I got away with it. Beans were Ethiopian 1840-2130 masl, amb temp 13.5c. I've one more batch of this to roast so I will be charging at 185 on the 3mm probe.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @RDC8, Since installing BT probe not gone above 192 charge. Is it possible for you to bring in the beans over winter into a warmer environment or if not bring in the beans you need roasting a few days (or a day minimum before) to help adjust to warmer temp?

Phil.


----------



## RDC8

Ted_Kent said:


> amb temp 13.5c.


 I was roasting in 6.5c ambient on Monday so fighting the heat loss. Because of the nature of the shed - a single tilt-a-door egress - it is virtually impossible to heat it up in any meaningful way. Need to fill some orders over the weekend so don't expect to break 4c ambient! I have an old oil-column heater that I will try to warm up the shed for an hour or so before starting to roast. Will need to have it switched off during the roasting as I will probably need all the power dedicated to the roasting elements.



Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Is it possible for you to bring in the beans


 SWMBO may have a fit if I start lugging in random buckets to sit in the hall! Might have to disguise them as something else first!


----------



## Ted_Kent

That sure is cold.

I've got some to do possibly tomorrow, im going to see how warm the beans get sat in the hopper while the roaster heats up/roasting another batch.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

RDC8 said:


> SWMBO may have a fit if I start lugging in random buckets to sit in the hall! Might have to disguise them as something else first


 I created some window seats to hide the beans 😆.


----------



## RDC8

Odd experience with the chaff collector yesterday while doing 5 back-to-back roasts.

I noticed a fair bit of chaff blowing out the exhaust - didn't really pay too much attention at the time. However, at the end of the roasting session I went to empty the chaff drawer and found it pretty much empty. After 5 batches - 2 naturals and 3 washed coffees, I would have expected a fair bit of chaff to have collected.

I have taken the impeller off the top of the cyclone to see if there is any clearly visible blockage - the fan blades are clean and the inside of the cyclone looks clear.

Has any one else experienced this before? Any ideas as to why the chaff is being blow out the exhaust rather than settling in the collector?

There doesn't seem to be any issue with the overall airflow through the roaster.

Thanks in advance


----------



## DavecUK

RDC8 said:


> Odd experience with the chaff collector yesterday while doing 5 back-to-back roasts.
> 
> I noticed a fair bit of chaff blowing out the exhaust - didn't really pay too much attention at the time. However, at the end of the roasting session I went to empty the chaff drawer and found it pretty much empty. After 5 batches - 2 naturals and 3 washed coffees, I would have expected a fair bit of chaff to have collected.
> 
> I have taken the impeller off the top of the cyclone to see if there is any clearly visible blockage - the fan blades are clean and the inside of the cyclone looks clear.
> 
> Has any one else experienced this before? Any ideas as to why the chaff is being blow out the exhaust rather than settling in the collector?
> 
> There doesn't seem to be any issue with the overall airflow through the roaster.
> 
> Thanks in advance


 Does your vent point into wind?

Do you always have the cooling tray damper fully open unless on the rare occasion you might need to close it a bit to get air through the drum?

Is your airflow as strong as normal (might be worth visually checking the fan capacitor?


----------



## RDC8

@DavecUK

The vent runs horizontally out my garage door; the wind yesterday was running at about 90 degrees across the end of the vent.

Cooling damper is always fully open for the first 50-60% of the roast. Might close it by 2cm approaching FC just to reduce the RoR (Depends on what else is happening). Might reduce it a little more post FC to prevent a second flick - again it depends on where I'm at with the smoke damper and what my probes are telling me(Different beans - Different Settings).

Haven't noticed any issues with the airflow; I guess the capacitor is going to be in that plastic box/housing where the power cable connects to the sirocco unit? What should I be looking out for? Electronics are not my strong point!

Thanks


----------



## DavecUK

See if f it looks normal or bulgy.


----------



## CJV8

Is the chaff drawer closing fully? I find if mine gets a bit of muck stuck to the foam seals it holds the drawer open enough to allow a draw of air sending the chaff out the exhaust.


----------



## RDC8

I'll check the secureness of the drawer and also the state of the capacitor next time I am roasting; hopefully not anytime soon as it was 0.2 centigrade when I went into the shed this morning!


----------



## DavecUK

CJV8 said:


> Is the chaff drawer closing fully? I find if mine gets a bit of muck stuck to the foam seals it holds the drawer open enough to allow a draw of air sending the chaff out the exhaust.


 really good point!!


----------



## Rob1

There are foam seals on the drawer?


----------



## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> There are foam seals on the drawer?


 Yes...if yours doesn't have any, you better fit a set, they are flat foam about 1cm wide and 3mm thick. I'll try to remember to take a photo tomorrow.


----------



## Rob1

@DavecUK It seals against foam on the cyclone, checked a minute ago, can't really see it unless you're looking for it.

Will this ducting be ok? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blauberg-UK-Aluminium-Ventilation-Hydroponics/dp/B00E8G2ZB4/ref=pd_di_sccai_1?pd_rd_w=iONY0&pf_rd_p=f45e6bfc-40b0-4749-aceb-1ea1cd205758&pf_rd_r=77T4GB2KBZ6QHY710KR9&pd_rd_r=c5baf88c-0dec-4f39-8ebd-a65a51b5f228&pd_rd_wg=L0OIg&pd_rd_i=B00E8G2ZB4&psc=1

I saw the semi-rigid ducting I'd installed had little holes in it so it needs replacing. Probably damaged it just by compressing and flexing which isn't great. The above is heat resistant to 140c, do you think that will be ok if cut down to length?


----------



## DavecUK

Nah... horrible, the exhaust doesn't get hot, but I use this...smoother inside.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01N91RN6D/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_A0XT3M4SADFR3K28QWX6


----------



## Rob1

Yeah, that's what I got originally. I'll just have to treat it gently this time I guess.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

DavecUK said:


> Yes...if yours doesn't have any, you better fit a set, they are flat foam about 1cm wide and 3mm thick. I'll try to remember to take a photo tomorrow


 @Daveuk64Did you take a phot in the end?


----------



## DavecUK

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> @Daveuk64Did you take a phot in the end?


 No had some problems at home with my mother. Didn't get time and to be honest, completely forgot


----------



## DavecUK

Thinking about it that looks like my own single sided sticky, hi density foam strip. My roaster may well not have had any back in the day. certain I stuck that on....that's what you should be doing anyway!


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Thanks @DavecUK, Yes same as mine.


----------



## Johnny Ess

Beeroclock said:


> Ok so I've ordered one of these in albeit mine is and M6 with 3mm diameter hole - will see how it copes with the heat...


 Looking for one of these. Where did you get it form?

EDIT: Ok found one -

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/cable-glands/3646924/


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Evening All,

So much information on the forum about the Dalian it's hard to see it all. I'm looking to replace the top spare ET probe, which is currently 5mm to a new 3mm probe. Just finding it is lagging behind in Artisan compared to my 3mm BT probe. Does anyone have any experience or can advice on how best to do this. How long a probe do you need, is it a straight swap or do I need to purchase anything else at the same time?

Thanks

Phil.


----------



## Ted_Kent

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Evening All,
> So much information on the forum about the Dalian it's hard to see it all. I'm looking to replace the top spare ET probe, which is currently 5mm to a new 3mm probe. Just finding it is lagging behind in Artisan compared to my 3mm BT probe. Does anyone have any experience or can advice on how best to do this. How long a probe do you need, is it a straight swap or do I need to purchase anything else at the same time?
> 
> Thanks
> Phil.


Check out post #81 here https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48344-artisanroastlogger-and-amazon-dalian/

I fitted the phidgets 3mm probe, think its 11cm but put a bend in to make it fit around better. It was about £16 from a UK seller called Active Robots.

Plugged straight into my phidgets TMP1101, vint hub and then the 3060_0 USB isolator to remove ground loops (reducing the risk of damage to my Panasonic toughpad and allowing me to use it plugged in and still read accurately)


----------



## RDC8

Quick question for Dalian users; do you ever try to emulate the "soak" when roasting? This seems to be a viable strategy on a gas powered roaster but I was wondering if it is possible with the Dalian.

Thanks in advance


----------



## Rob1

RDC8 said:


> Quick question for Dalian users; do you ever try to emulate the "soak" when roasting? This seems to be a viable strategy on a gas powered roaster but I was wondering if it is possible with the Dalian.
> 
> Thanks in advance


 I might give it a shot.

Seems like you just heat the roaster thoroughly and turn the power to the element off a few minutes before roasting, so the roaster is properly heated and cools a little to the charge temp while the element also cools. Then when you charge turn the heat on to a lower setting (with a modded roaster) so it heats up slowly and then up to the usual power when you're done with the soak....


----------



## RDC8

Yup, that's pretty much how I thought it might be accomplished with the Dalian. Although my feeling is that the power gets turned off when the roaster is charged rather than beforehand. My standard approach is to charge on the upward temperature trajectory rather on the downward.

The big unknown is how long to leave it until returning to full power. My worry is failing to get the momentum going again and ending up with a baked roast.

I too might experiment over the weekend; I have a natural Brazilian that I'm still not entirely happy with (although it improves with every roast) and also a honey-process El Salvador which is giving me grief. A "soak" might be the solution.


----------



## Ted_Kent

I roasted a decaf recently and charged at a lower temperature, also tried a soak approach similar to those on gas machines where I ran half power on the element for the first minute and then adjusted power back to full.

I struggled to get the roast going and it took 13 mins to hit FC. I've not roasted anymore since, but will be using the normal approach next roast of charge when the roaster starts a + rate of rise again after achieving the required charge temp.


----------



## RDC8

Ted_Kent said:


> I struggled to get the roast going and it took 13 mins to hit FC


 That's pretty much what I'm worried about. Even for a low density bean I don't think this this would be ideal.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

RDC8 said:


> The big unknown is how long to leave it until returning to full power. My worry is failing to get the momentum going again and ending up with a baked roast.


 I was actually going to post on this after roasting yesterday. Was looking at the BBP and wondering from my testing how long from when I turn the power back on does it take the heating elements to get back to full heat. Does anyone know?

I tried reducing the BT to 10c below charge temp and then powering up at 2500W to charge temp. Better but now great.

Think this could be one of the main issues with the soak is the prolonged time it takes to heat up again.

@RDC8 - Know your pain with the Brazilian. Not just that it smokes like a chimney.


----------



## Johnny Ess

Just greased the bearings after 6 months of use after hearing some squeaking noises from the roaster. Both front and rear were bone dry. As DaveC mentions in the video - trust nobody and highly recommend checking even if you're roaster is new. Pumped grease into the rear bearing and no old grease came out. Similarly the front bearing was bone dry! Sounds fine now & hopefully no damage was done!

Thanks @DavecUK for the video! 🙏


----------



## DavecUK

Johnny Ess said:


> Just greased the bearings after 6 months of use after hearing some squeaking noises from the roaster. Both front and rear were bone dry. As DaveC mentions in the video - trust nobody and highly recommend checking even if you're roaster is new. Pumped grease into the rear bearing and no old grease came out. Similarly the front bearing was bone dry! Sounds fine now & hopefully no damage was done!
> 
> Thanks @DavecUK for the video! 🙏


 Rear bearing will be OK, it's a roller cage/race and would have had some in there...they don't fill it because too much can cause it to run, especially if you don't use the lubricants types I recommend. So I wouldn't worry about it. The front bearing is actually a self lubricating bush and doesn't need lubrication...I of course am not so trusting and I lubricate the front bearing. The most important thing is to ensure the front bush is properly engaged in the cover plate of the roaster and mark its 12:00 position (witness mark) before removing...I'm paranoid and even put the screws back in the same place.

I'm sure everything will be fine....big reminder though to give mine a check.

P.S. If you look at the front bearing you may even see a small line...that is actually the bronze bearing surface inset sleeve and not a wear line. I checked that against a brand front bush bearing which had the same line.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Johnny Ess said:


> Thanks @DavecUK for the video


 @Johnny Ess - didn't realise there was a maintenance video, will take a look at that.

For the back bearings when I added some grease I manually added it. Did you apply manually or use a grease gun?


----------



## DavecUK

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> @Johnny Ess - didn't realise there was a maintenance video, will take a look at that.
> 
> For the back bearings when I added some grease I manually added it. Did you apply manually or use a grease gun?


 You have to use a grease gun....I have a 80+ year old one that works quite well for the job.


----------



## Johnny Ess

DavecUK said:


> Rear bearing will be OK, it's a roller cage and would have had some in there...they don't fill it because too much can cause it to run, especially if you don't use the lubricants types I recommend. So I wouldn't worry about it. The front bearing is actually a self lubricating bush and doesn't need lubrication...I of course am not so trusting and I lubricate the front bearing. The most important thing is to ensure the front bush is properly engaged in the cover plate of the roaster and mark its 12:00 position (witness mark) before removing...I'm paranoid and even put the screws back in the same place.
> 
> I'm sure everything will be fine....big reminder though to give mine a check.
> 
> P.S. If you look at the front bearing you may even see a small line...that is actually the bronze bearing surface inset sleeve and not a wear line. I checked that against a brand front bush bearing which had the same line.


 Much appreciated Dave 👍

No squeaking noises now anyway 😅


----------



## Johnny Ess

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> @Johnny Ess - didn't realise there was a maintenance video, will take a look at that.
> 
> For the back bearings when I added some grease I manually added it. Did you apply manually or use a grease gun?


 Here's the video -


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Thanks both. I had found the video and bought myself a grease gun over the weekend. Last time I did the maintenance I removed the nipple and manually inserted the grease as best as I could. The gun made it far easier 😀.


----------



## Johnny Ess

Has anyone had an issue with the Smoke Damper getting stiff? Ive got a build up of debris on the SD which I need to clean off. Just wondering if should open the inner drum to inspect and clean the inside. Otherwise cleaning the visible section of the SD plate might suffice (after just removing the outer casing).

I think this is the reason why Ive had some black (hot) ash making its way into the chaff drawer.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Johnny Ess said:


> Has anyone had an issue with the Smoke Damper getting stiff? Ive got a build up of debris on the SD which I need to clean off. Just wondering if should open the inner drum to inspect and clean the inside. Otherwise cleaning the visible section of the SD plate might suffice (after just removing the outer casing).
> 
> I think this is the reason why Ive had some black (hot) ash making its way into the chaff drawer.


 I do find the SD stiff at the 1 and less mark. It also gets stiffer when it gets hot (maybe 2 or less). The main movement is fine. From my memory I would say the plate isn't a perfect fit, it seems to be at a slight angle. Checked through the cooling tray and it does seem to get fully closed (cannot see a light through it).


----------



## RDC8

Johnny Ess said:


> Has anyone had an issue with the Smoke Damper getting stiff?


 Yes! I too would be interested to know if this is a common problem and how others might have dealt with it.

How old and how many roasts has you Dalian done @Johnny Ess? Mine is coming up 4 years and about 650kg through it.


----------



## Johnny Ess

Around 370KG in 8 months. Mine is ok to 4cm which is normally how far I open it to. So when its hot, and I try to move it further to full..it is very clogged up and makes a terrible noise also. I think cleaning the visible section of the SD plate (when the outer casing is removed) should suffice, but a little concerned that the debris is getting baked on there and turning into hot ash.


----------



## DavecUK

Johnny Ess said:


> Around 370KG in 8 months. Mine is ok to 4cm which is normally how far I open it to. So when its hot, and I try to move it further to full..it is very clogged up and makes a terrible noise also. I think cleaning the visible section of the SD plate (when the outer casing is removed) should suffice, but a little concerned that the debris is getting baked on there and turning into hot ash.


 My dampers all move very easily, not stiff at all?


----------



## Johnny Ess

Thinking that taking the outer casing off and hooovering the SD plate will have to become part of regular or even daily maintenance depending on number roasts.


----------



## DavecUK

Johnny Ess said:


> Thinking that taking the outer casing off and hooovering the SD plate will have to become part of regular or even daily maintenance depending on number roasts.


 That's not right at all...something else must be wrong


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Evening All,

I was wondering do people read the exhaust temperature on the Dalian? I was thinking of a temperature strip or maybe drilling a small hole in exhaust pipe and adding a thermocouple to display in Artisan.

Just doing some general reading and it cropped up.

Thanks

Phil.


----------



## Antepic

Gutted - my pulley started squeaking a bit so gave the bearings a grease as per Dave's video but tonight i had to dump some mighty fine Papua New Guinea when the pulley slowed and almost stopped. I took this video....any ideas guys? Simple as a new belt or something worse?

TIA!👍

/monthly_2021_07/VID-20210713-WA0005.mp4.01b1671784053a1767b1091b72a8f0cf.mp4" type="video/mp4">
View attachment VID-20210713-WA0005.mp4


----------



## El carajillo

I do not know the machine but that sounds more like bearing problem.

Was the belt folded into a ring when new ? several undulations on the belt as it rotates How tight is the tension on the belt ?


----------



## Stevebee

Looks like either the motor (unlikely) or there is a small grub screw that grips the shaft in position. If the shaft was pushed or moved a bit whilst you were greasing the bearings it may rub and restrict the smooth turning. If you loosen, ensure the shaft is turning smoothly before tightening it could be ok. Worth trying as it only takes a couple of mins.


----------



## Dartmoor Coffee

Also did you grease the front bearings and has it been correctly set back in. Heard mentioned if not replaced the same way it went it then might not sit correctly?


----------



## Antepic

Thanks guys. I greased it as it stuck once before a week ago, so I don't think it's anything I've done since. I've sent the video over to Bella Barista so hopefully they can help. The belt is reasonable moveable so perhaps that or bearings. Are bearings easy to replace yourself? I can see loads of spares at BB although the belts are out of stock. I don't know whether to replace belt and bearings to be on the safe side 🤔

Cheers again for the advice.👍


----------



## CarloScarito

@AntepicI had a similar problem to this. @Stevebeementioned about the grub screws, and if I remember correctly that was the issue.

I didn't fix it myself, mind you, I took it to Bella Barista as I live about half hour away. The screw had taken my shaft out of alignment and it kept coming to a stop.

Hope you get it sorted


----------



## Stevebee

~The grub screw fix is simple. Loosen it, move the shaft to the correct position, and then tighten- 5 mins tops


----------



## RDC8

Hi All.

I thought I would like to try and improve my understanding of how my damper settings affect air-flow. So I was wondering if anyone has fitted a device to their Dalian to objectively measure this? (a magnehelic?) If so, could you share a few details of your setup; eg what you are using, where you have placed it, whether or not you have it hooked up to Artisan. All useful insights would be gratefully appreciated.

Thanks in advance


----------



## Antepic

Hi Guys

I'm getting more smoke than usual out of the vents at the rear of the drum. I've managed for a couple of sessions and it's starting to bother me.

Fan is working in it's little cage with no obstruction. Still pulling through the main duct and outside with lots of chaff collecting where it should.

It also kicks out some smoke when I use the tryer and when I dump. Obvs there is always a little but on the whole it makes me think there is some negative pull inside the drum itself.

I have regularly vaccumed under the cooler and through the CA but the duct is a little furry - is it likely back smoke up? A little nervous that the guy from Black Country Roasters had a bad fan experience earlier this year - although it appears omthe fan is fine.

I'm grateful for your thoughts

Many Thanks

Ant


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## RDC8

Have you removed the fan from it's housing to check the blades? If they have become blocked then that will impede aid-flow even if the fan is spinning. You might also want to remove the stainless steel venting pipes at the rear of the roaster (there are a couple of grub screws keeping them in place) to check for possible blockages; I use a toilet brush to remove any build-up of "fur" from the interior wall of the pipes.


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## DavecUK

Remove vent tube place hand in front of fan outlet, is there a good strong flow?


Remove entire fan motor assembly and photograph


open metal box and check capacitor and photograph


If it's all good, then you have a restriction before the fan



make sure cooling tray holes are not blocked


open cooling tray hatch, get mirror on a stick+torch and check where vents are near drum


close CA and fully open SD, you should feel a bit of a draw at the drum/tryer side of things


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## Dartmoor Coffee

From my experience I've only ever get smoke out of the back vents if I don't open up SD at all. So beginning of roast when SD is closed, if I don't open it up early enough smoke will appear, but as soon as SD goes to 1 it disappears.

Makes me think as @RDC8 and @DavecUK mentions above I would do a complete maintenance on the roaster. When was the last time you performed a complete maintenance. Take all pipes off and clean, clean fan (which if caked with coffee will reduce air flow), clean pipework to the outside. Make sure there are no obstructions. Just wondering have you lubricated the spindle and drum recently - is it rotating fast enough?

On a side note does this happen on all beans or are a particular one? Some beans smoke more than others so have you tried opening SD / close CA dampers right at the end to help remove excess smoke?


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## Coffee by the Casuals

@AntepicWe had this exact problem about a year ago and when @DavecUKwalked us through everything it was a blown capacitor. So the fan was working, but not at adequate speed. New capacitor (I think up-rated, if I remember Dave's advice correctly...) sorted it.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Coffee by the Casuals said:


> @AntepicWe had this exact problem about a year ago and when @DavecUKwalked us through everything it was a blown capacitor. So the fan was working, but not at adequate speed. New capacitor (I think up-rated, if I remember Dave's advice correctly...) sorted it.


 Do you have details on the capacitor you purchased? Wondering if worth getting one in stock just in case mine goes.

Thanks

Phil.


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## Coffee by the Casuals

I do - it was here https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332617433876

Dave might be able to remember what the capacitor was rated for because he recommended a different rating to the one installed as stock.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Coffee by the Casuals said:


> I do - it was here https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332617433876


 Thanks.

On a separate how many people use the Dalian as a sample roaster? Got 5 new coffees in and want to experiment with the profiles, but ideally don't want to put through my normal 900g through for each roast. What is the min weight I could put through and still get a good representation of the profile?


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## Coffee by the Casuals

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Thanks.
> 
> On a separate how many people use the Dalian as a sample roaster? Got 5 new coffees in and want to experiment with the profiles, but ideally don't want to put through my normal 900g through for each roast. What is the min weight I could put through and still get a good representation of the profile?


 We do a full batch


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Coffee by the Casuals said:


> We do a full batch


 Thanks - do you do like 3 batches dropping at something like 1:45, 2:15 and 2:45 post FC, cup to see which one is best and some basic test tasting. Then home in on the best cup time to create the profile?


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## Coffee by the Casuals

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Thanks - do you do like 3 batches dropping at something like 1:45, 2:15 and 2:45 post FC, cup to see which one is best and some basic test tasting. Then home in on the best cup time to create the profile?


 That I can't answer, since my brother does all of the roasting now!

Your process makes sense, although I don't remember ever going past 1.45 post-FC for any of the coffee that I did roast. But if that's your sort of parameter then that makes sense.


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## RDC8

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> What is the min weight I could put through and still get a good representation of the profile?


 I have occasionally roasted the "remnants" of coffees where the weight has been under 1kg. At 750gm it's doable, but the roast goes quite fast and I'm not sure how repeatable it could be. I did try a 400gm roast once and lost control! None of the probe readings made sense and it went from DE to FC in next to no time. Dropped it quite soon afterwards but it was toast!

It would be interesting to know if anyone else has had success with small batch sizes.


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## Rob1

I put 250g through and ran it with the heating elements off the entire time.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Rob1 said:


> I put 250g through and ran it with the heating elements off the entire time.


 Errrr&#8230;.. I'm confused! How do the beans get roasted then? Or maybe Rob is joking?


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## Rob1

The machine was heated up to 230c and the elements had residual heat in them.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Rob1 said:


> The machine was heated up to 230c and the elements had residual heat in them.


 Hi @Rob1, Interesting idea. Does that give a reasonable idea of varying roast profiles. Might give that a try.

Would seem the best route when funds allow is to get a roast sampler like Ikawa.


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## Rob1

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Hi @Rob1, Interesting idea. Does that give a reasonable idea of varying roast profiles. Might give that a try.
> 
> Would seem the best route when funds allow is to get a roast sampler like Ikawa.


 Probably not, it was practically impossible to control. I don't think an Ikawa would be good to try profiles on, but as something to do sample roasts it would be good I think. Unnecessarily expensive for what it is.


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## DavecUK

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Would seem the best route when funds allow is to get a roast sampler like Ikawa.


 Others may disagree, but I don't believe that would be a good idea. The profile on the Ikawa will bear no resemblance to any profile you can achieve on the Dalian and will tell you very little. The Dalian like all other commercial roasters, has what I term a "profile window". You have to work within that. The bigger the roaster gets, the smaller the profile window..

e.g. You may on a tiny roaster be able to have the fabled (I hate the term) "drying phase", holding a bean between 2 set temps for a set time. Good luck on achieving that with a 25kg roaster.

The difference is

Ikawa










Amazon










Big commercial roaster 20-160kg+


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## CarloScarito

Hey all,

Went to order a spare drive belt on Bella Barista, but they're all out. Does anybody know where I can get the same one elsewhere?


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## DavecUK

@CarloScarito A kevlar reinforced ride on mower belt will work fine....cost £5

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3L370-Kevlar-Mower-Belt-PIX/131557694920?epid=1461751971&hash=item1ea1731dc8:g:in0AAOSw9N1VptQn


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## CarloScarito

Thanks so much @DavecUK!


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Apologies for the delay. I've tried roasting smaller samples at 500g each. Used a combination of the dimmer mod, CA and SD dampers. First one hard to control, but it improved with experience.

The idea of the Ikawa is not to provide a profile for the Dalian per say, but more of a way to help ascertain the kind of roast profile needed specifically the timings past FC (i.e. a short or long roast). The charge temp is more simply to sort out based on altitude, process type, etc.
Attached 3 examples starting from one of my first attempts to one of my last ones.


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## Johnny Ess

Has anyone done any further maintenance or cleaning inside or around the drum area?

We've got what's most likely a build up of chaff between the drum and the outer drum casing. After the batch is dumped into the cooling tray, a hot glow can occasionally be seen in the background through the perforations of the drum.


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## Johnny Ess

I normally closed SD to help clear the chaff when the beans exit the drum.


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## Rob1

Is that glow not just the heating element?


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## DavecUK

@Rob1 It is. @Johnny Ess


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## Johnny Ess

Thanks @Rob1 & @DavecUK seems likely. Maybe chaff on the heating element. Stuck a Hoover in there and managed to suck out some chaff/debris through the perforations in the drum. Much appreciated


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## CarloScarito

Hey all,

been a while!

just wanted to ask what grease everyone is using on their bearing? Mine is not great


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