# Hello from new member - looking for advice



## Scro (Nov 3, 2020)

Hello all!

I've just joined the forum and am looking for some guidance on getting better/thicker crema. If this isn't the right section to post this kind of thing could someone kindly direct me to where it would be better placed?

I have a 2015 Rancilio Silvia, paired with a Eureka Mignon grinder. Generally I can produce reasonably good coffee with it and like to do flat whites, with some latte art swirls. However, I feel that my espresso shots are a bit lacking in crema and am wondering if it is just my expectations, my equipment or my technique. A quick summary of my workflow is as follows:



Switch on espresso machine and allow it to warm up at least until the heating light goes out


Grind a double portafilter full of coffee, break up any clumps with a skewer and ensure good even distribution in the filter basket, then tamp with a firm press down on the tamper. I either use home-roasted beans or fresh, good quality mail order beans. Grind is set to fairly fine - if I grind much finer then it will typically "stall" the pump and no espresso is produced


Switch on the steam setting and wait until the "heating" light goes out.


Purge any residual water in the steam wand so that a steady jet of steam comes from the wand rather than water


Steam the milk then set aside and switch off the "steam" mode


Purge some water through the group head to lower the boiler temperature. Typically some steam will initially come out of the group head so I continue the flush until steady hot water is discharged.


Fit the filled/tamped portafilter


Brew the espresso. This typically takes around 20 seconds to brew a double espresso (approx 50ml of espresso)


Pour the steamed milk in a (sometimes😅) nice latte art pattern


The crema on my shots always seems to be a bit thin and, in my bowl shaped cup of choice often doesn't fully cover the surface before pouring the milk.

Any tips on where I may be going wrong or what I could change to improve things?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Welcome to the forum. Few questions for you. What beans are you using - freshly roasted etc? What dose weight are you using? Are you weighing output or going by volume? 20 secs sounds a bit short on extraction time given you are pulling around 50ml. Don't judge your coffee by the amount of crema produced.


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## Scro (Nov 3, 2020)

Thanks for the quick response. Here are a few answers to your queries:

*Beans *are typically freshly roasted. If I roast at home I use them within about 7 days of roasting. If ordered from the internet it can be 10-15 days from roasting. Either way I'm using good quality single-source beans from seemingly reputable suppliers (Rave Coffee, York Coffee Emporium, Pact Coffee, Redber Coffee).

*Dose weight* - I don't usually weigh every time but aim for the same amount visually, which fills the Rancilio double portafilter. This is approx 16-17g of ground coffee. I did try weighing/timing/checking volumes of my shots a wee while back.

*Volume output* - again I don't usually measure, but estimate visually. When I did measure (by weight rather than volume) I was getting around 50g of weight increase in the cup from empty to filled with a double shot.

*Timing of shot* - I'm aware this is probably a bit shorter than ideal, but if I tamp harder or grind finer in the hope I can have a slower extraction I can very easily "stall" the pump. The pump still runs fine (ie it isn't struggling) but the relief valve causes it to recirculate back to tank rather than push the water through the coffee puck.

Could it be my relief valve is set too low? I've never played with any of the internals in the 5 yrs I've had the machine. I don't have any pressure gauges to check what pressure the relief valve is set at.

I regularly clean (with Puly Caff powder) and backflush the machine.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Low pressure certainly can cause a lack of crema...perhaps you can borrow a pressure measuring portafilter. Weighing your dose will allow grind to be consistent, too fast or too slow a shot can affect Crema. I would video your routine and the shot, so we can see what might be going on, if you have a bottomless portafilter that's even better.


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## L2en (Jun 10, 2018)

Do you have bottomless portafilter? This helped me a lot with diagnostics of my shots. Sometimes it takes time to get through to the cup, but you can see exactly what is happening through the bottomless one. 20 sec is really short time especially for that amount of water getting through. I do sometimes choke the machine, but it only happens with a really fine grind, usually with new beans I'm not familiar with.


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## Scro (Nov 3, 2020)

Thanks again for the quick responses. I think the next steps are:



Make a video of my typical workflow for critical review and laughing at.. I'm sure my technique can be improved somewhere 😄


Methodically measure/weigh/time to get some exact numbers for analysis


Try and source a bottomless portafilter for the Rancilio Silvia (anyone have one available to loan or buy? I'm in NE Scotland)


Look at sourcing/borrowing a pressure gauge to check the relief valve setting


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## Scro (Nov 3, 2020)

A few numbers from this morning's brew:



Weight of coffee grounds: 17.5g


Volume (weight) of double shot: 53g


Extraction time: 18.5sec (!)


I've dialled a slightly finer setting on my grinder for the next brew with the hope that I can get a slower extraction. When should I start/stop timing the shot? I timed from the first flow out of the portafilter spout until I'd filled the cup with 53g of espresso (target was 50g)

Hope to get a video done this weekend when my morning routine is a bit more relaxed.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

You start the timer immediately you switch the pump on. Not at first drips out of the portafilter.


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## Scro (Nov 3, 2020)

Ahh, ok, my shot time may have been more like 23-25 sec then, as it took a good few seconds before flow came out of the portafilter.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

Scro said:


> Switch on espresso machine and allow it to warm up at least until the heating light goes out


 I noticed you said you warm the machine "at least until the heating light goes out". The light goes out when the thermostat on the boiler reaches the set temperature (should be 100C on a 2015 Silvia if I remember correctly; older models were set to 110C). This doesn't mean the machine is ready, as you have a large chunk of metal in the group and portafilter (you do heat the machine with the PF in, right?) to heat up. I have seen that you steam and flush water through the group before brewing, and this indeed increases the chances that the group and PF will be hot, but you need to make sure they are. If they are not, they will reduce the temperature in the puck and affect your shots.

Generally, without any flushes it would take ~30 minutes (or more) to passively get the the group and PF to temperature on the Silvia (similar to many other machines). You can speed this up by flushing hot water through the group and PF, but if you want to settle and reach stability you need to give it time and certainly not assume that the light going out indicates that the machine is ready to brew.


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## Scro (Nov 3, 2020)

@Doram Good point! After steaming my milk and doing my flush I think the grouphead will be up to temperature, but I do this without the portafilter locked in, as I'm grinding/tamping in parallel. I've never specifically measured the grouphead temperature but it is definitely too hot to touch. The portafilter and basket are definitely not at temperature when I start pulling my shot so may be a minor area to improve.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

Scro said:


> The portafilter and basket are definitely not at temperature when I start pulling my shot so may be a minor area to improve.


 This could be more than minor. A too hot group and too cold PF combination is not a recipe for stable, repeatable accurate temperature in the puck throughout the shot, which is what you need to aim for. It might lead to the puck being too cold, too hot, or partly too cold and partly too hot.

Why not try leaving the machine to heat for 45 minutes (with the PF in!), brew a shot and see if you can taste the difference? I think you might be surprised at how important this is.

Another thing to try is to reverse your workflow: Start by brewing your shot, then steam. I know there are supporters for either preference, but my impression is that brew first is more prevalent, and this is what I always did anyway.


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## Scro (Nov 3, 2020)

I've now tried letting the machine, with portafilter and basket fitted, heat for a good 45mins before grinding/tamping and pulling a shot. I've then proceeded to steam the milk afterwards. I can't say this has yielded any noticable difference or improvement after 3x coffees, compared to my original routine as described in the first post of this thread.

Hopefully get a chance to do a video tomorrow.

Bottomless PF on its way, too 🙂


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## Scro (Nov 3, 2020)

A poor attempt at a video has been had. I've posted it over in the videos section...

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55722-latte-making-for-constructive-criticism/?do=embed


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## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

Just read the OP after commenting on your other thread.

With regards tamping pressure you don't want to be tamping at different pressures to change extraction time. Tamping pressure and consistency is key to being able to make good shots and adjust other variables and with a good grinder you really don't need to tamp too hard.

I struggled in the early days with tamping pressure and making sure I was tamping everything level with the basket. I invested in one of those spinning distribution tools not so much for spinning the grinds around the basket but to make sure the grinds were level and flat before tamping and I consistently get within a second on 40 second shots.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ill add a slightly different experience to above . You can ( and I have ) done three shots before , one with no tamp ( no no distribution tool ) one with 10 lbs one with i think 30lsb all took within 1 second to achieve the same ratio.

Prompted me to make a few conclusions,

tamping pressure doesn't drive time for a shot as much as people think it does , if may feel like it is but other factors are at play here.

Tieing yourself to a time be it 40 seconds or 30 or 25 seconds to aim for consistency for a shot , doesn't always help . These shots over this time may not be extracting the same .

You should aim to get coffee in a basket as level as you can before tamping or using a tool. If single dosing doing some WDT will help .

Distribution tools are not WDT and only really groom the top bit of surface , don't stress about the pressure you tamp at , it isn't the driving factor in how your shots taste or how long they take to make ( how the coffee is ground and how it falls in the basket is and for some machines the random temp they are generating to extract with ) . Tamping will exacerbate poor distribution from a grinder and poor distribution in the the basket , tamlping should be level .This is IMHO the most important aspect to get right while tamping.

All above is my experience only and as in all coffee experiences will differ from others


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## Scro (Nov 3, 2020)

Bottomless portafilter arrived. 1st shot video over in the videos section...

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55779-analyse-my-shot/?do=embed


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## Scro (Nov 3, 2020)

After playing with a few variables one by one (grind size, temp surfing, bottomless portafilter, allowing the machine to heat up for 40min) I felt like I was moving in the wrong direction generally. I returned back to essentially what I was doing previously and then changed 1 thing, after being inspired by something I saw in a youtube video: stirring the grinds differently. This seemed to make a much more significant difference than I'd expected.

What I had previously been doing is stirring the grinds in the PF basket with a matchstick, then levelled it by scraping the stick horizontally across the rim of the basket. This worked well to break up clumps and made it look reasonably well levelled and distributed. I'd also tried tapping the PF on the bench to help settle the grinds better. It seems the matchstick was just too chunky to effectively settle and distribute the grinds, leaving "cavities" in the puck

I then changed to using some fine wire to stir the grinds, break up the clumps and smooth out the distribution in the basket. I stirred with small circular movements slowly working my way around the basket. Even without levelling or tapping the PF on the bench the difference was notable. The coffee tasted much smoother, extraction times were better, channelling/spritzing was vastly reduced and I found that I had previously gone down a rabbit hole chasing grind size to get sensible extraction times. Crema seems to be better, generally, too!


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## stingray (Aug 4, 2020)

Scro said:


> Eureka Mignon grinder


 Could this be the weak link? Only the Specialita is really espresso suited. Or if it's a new Specialita, it may be taking a while to run in (I know mine is!)


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## Scro (Nov 3, 2020)

stingray said:


> Could this be the weak link? Only the Specialita is really espresso suited. Or if it's a new Specialita, it may be taking a while to run in (I know mine is!)


 Not sure? I've had it for 5 years from new so I'd expect it's well and truly run in now. I've never replaced the burrs, but have given the whole grinder a thorough disassemble and clean several times. This is the first that I've heard that it wouldn't be suited for espresso so am curious to know why, and what sets the specialita out as being better. Larger diameter burrs?

Anyway, even with the standard mignon on the standard setting I used to have it at I'm getting much better coffee simply by changing my stirring tool.


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