# Is this poor distribution?



## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Hi all,

so back on the espresso trail and cracked cracked put my naked portafilter yesterday for the first time. I've been getting some nice enough shots recently but as I have one I thought it would be wise to use it and see what's going on.

The first couple yesterday had a few spritzers and the grind was too coarse but other than that looked alright coming through. This mornings shot with no change to technique produced the below image which I'm trying to understand.

Technique is weight and tare pf and dosing collar, grind 18g in to basket (18g vst). WDT with toothpick like a mad man. Remove collar and tap pf to level. Tamp, insert pf and pull.

The pic below was taken at 30s in with about 10g in the cup so my first thoughts are the grind is too fine but given the patchy nature of the coffee coming out is that down to distribution?

as for the coffee I let it run to 35g and it's not great but drinkable as an Americano


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Yep, slacken off a bit


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## iulianato (May 5, 2015)

I'm still new to this and still learning but what I found so far is that tapping the pf does necessary help with levelling. I never tap the pf now but I try to level with the finger. Leveling this way gave me even better results than using that 20 quid leveling tool sold on amazon. I also found that WDT with toothpick does not always break all clumps so now I'm using londonium tool which is amazing.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Try stirring in a separate container to homogenise grounds and break clumps. Then into portafilter and gentle sideways taps to level. Don't be tempted to touch or stir the grounds whilst in the PF.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Thanks all. I'll get grind dialled in better first and see how it goes.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

That was better, still a touch too fine but better. Will get a vid or pic of the next one


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

This came out fast but still patchy. 18g in 37g out (I think, says on video) in about 20 seconds. Sour as a lemon











Got another video of the next one which I tightened up to get 18:38 in 27 seconds but can't get it to upload for some reason. Was still patchy and sour although less so.

Beans are Dark Arts Lost Highway, roasted about 10 days ago.


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## Inspector (Feb 23, 2017)

It starts nice but after 13th second i suspect it is channeling.. how the puck looks like?

Try nutating when tamping and see how it goes


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Inspector said:


> It starts nice but after 13th second i suspect it is channeling.. how the puck looks like?
> 
> Try nutating when tamping and see how it goes


Post puck examination will tell you nothing .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

GingerBen said:


> This came out fast but still patchy. 18g in 37g out (I think, says on video) in about 20 seconds. Sour as a lemon


That grind needs tightening first .


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> That grind needs tightening first .


agreed. Next video shows result of that. Will upload ASAP


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## Inspector (Feb 23, 2017)

I wouldn't say puck examination will tell nothing, it can easily say if you are over or under dosing or if channeling is happening or you need to make an adjustment on shower screen etc.. Am i wrong? And on last video it is clearly channeling after 13th second. I would definitely try nutation first and then updosing. If it doesnt work then i would go finer as not every bean the same if you go too fine with 18gr you might leave a head room much more than you need isn't it?


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

A hair finer perhaps?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Inspector said:


> I wouldn't say puck examination will tell nothing, it can easily say if you are over or under dosing or if channeling is happening or you need to make an adjustment on shower screen etc.. Am i wrong? And on last video it is clearly channeling after 13th second. I would definitely try nutation first and then updosing. If it doesnt work then i would go finer as not every bean the same if you go too fine with 18gr you might leave a head room much more than you need isn't it?


Never nutate.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> A hair finer perhaps?.


So, how did it taste?


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> So, how did it taste?


almost there I think. Still a touch sour but better than the previous one


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> almost there I think. Still a touch sour but better than the previous one


Cool, finer still then.


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## mokapoka (Jun 20, 2011)

fluffles said:


> Try stirring in a separate container to homogenise grounds and break clumps. Then into portafilter and gentle sideways taps to level. Don't be tempted to touch or stir the grounds whilst in the PF.


Why not stir whilst in the PF?


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

First shot today. Finer than previous video. Still very patchy though. Shot was drinkable but still a touch under I think.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> First shot today. Finer than previous video. Still very patchy though. Shot was drinkable but still a touch under I think.


Ah, you ended up with an additional 6g in the cup that time? What ratio are you aiming for?

If ~1:2 then try a little finer.

I'd be more inclined to back off grind a smidge & go 1:3.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Ah, you ended up with an additional 6g in the cup that time? What ratio are you aiming for?
> 
> If ~1:2 then try a little finer.
> 
> I'd be more inclined to back off grind a smidge & go 1:3.


i was aiming for 1:2 just for ease but it ran away from me a bit. Not enough hands!

So you think go a touch coarser and let it run to 1:3. Ok will give both options a try and see what it's like. Thanks.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Attempt at 1:3 ratio pulled a bit coarser than the previous one. Looks dreadful and tasted awful lol

[video=youtube;azmgIUPo-l0]


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

1:2 ratio. Finer than above. Shot took 40 seconds. Drinkable but still under and patchy flow as shown.

maybe I'll film my shot prep and see if that throws anything up.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> Attempt at 1:3 ratio pulled a bit coarser than the previous one. Looks dreadful and tasted awful lol.


How come that one took 48s? Your one at 44g only took 38s?


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> How come that one took 48s? Your one at 44g only took 38s?


wish I knew tbh. I slackened the grind back a touch too so really don't know. Went a bit finer for the 1:2 in last video


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

What's your dosing method, can we see a video?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

GingerBen said:


> 1:2 ratio. Finer than above. Shot took 40 seconds. Drinkable but still under and patchy flow as shown.
> 
> maybe I'll film my shot prep and see if that throws anything up.


Describing a shot as under isn't always useful, as in context we are not measuring extraction yield in this example.

How did it taste? Are you perhaps describing sour and acidic as the same thing ?

Have you brewed the coffee of so is it tasty and what characteristics is is displaying then?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> wish I knew tbh. I slackened the grind back a touch too so really don't know. Went a bit finer for the 1:2 in last video


The last video was 1:2.4 (18:44g).

Can you prop up the camera on the naked somehow, then you can concentrate on hitting target weight?


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> What's your dosing method, can we see a video?


yes I'll try to record this tomorrow.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Describing a shot as under isn't always useful, as in context we are not measuring extraction yield in this example.
> 
> How did it taste? Are you perhaps describing sour and acidic as the same thing ?
> 
> Have you brewed the coffee of so is it tasty and what characteristics is is displaying then?


it tasted unbalanced, the notes are chocolate and caramel I'm not expecting any fruity acidity from it so I think what I'm getting as sour is as a result of it being under. I'm expecting a full bodied, rich shot and it's a bit thin and well sour but not in a face changing sort of way although I've had a couple from these beans that were.

I havent brewed it no. I'll try that tomorrow as well as filming my shot prep


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Went a touch coarser this morning to try and ge a 1:2 shot in around 30 seconds or thereabouts as felt it wasn't far away yesterday. 18g in 36.2g out in a minute and 4 seconds!!?? I purged the grinder etc so can only assume it's my tamp this time. Maybe gave it a bit too much welly compared to yesterday?

Shot tasted horrible, like beef gravy with coffee in! On other occasions I might like gravy like This but not as a drink!!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> Went a touch coarser this morning to try and ge a 1:2 shot in around 30 seconds or thereabouts as felt it wasn't far away yesterday. 18g in 36.2g out in a minute and 4 seconds!!?? I purged the grinder etc so can only assume it's my tamp this time. Maybe gave it a bit too much welly compared to yesterday?
> 
> Shot tasted horrible, like beef gravy with coffee in! On other occasions I might like gravy like This but not as a drink!!


Didn't you feel that yesterday's last shot was still a little under? If so, why go coarser again (lower extraction)?

Oddly, it seems the last 2 times you set the grinder coarser, you had extended shot times. How much are you purging?

Maybe sort your tamp (just until you feel the puck loses its give) then pull the next few shots at the same setting.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

I wanted to see what effect it would have on the flow pattern in the bottomless and also the taste.

Im purging around 8 - 10g each time give or take

ok, I'll leave grind the same and make another and see what happens. Will try to film shot prep too if I can


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

GingerBen said:


> I wanted to see what effect it would have on the flow pattern in the bottomless and also the taste.
> 
> Im purging around 8 - 10g each time give or take
> 
> ok, I'll leave grind the same and make another and see what happens. Will try to film shot prep too if I can


Might be an idea to get a push style tamper then you'll know you have concistency and it's a variable you can rule out, I have this rhinoware one, I love it.

https://www.coffeehit.co.uk/rhinowares-flat-tamper-58-5mm.html

You can also get really cheap knock off ones from Amazon, dunno what they're like but my cheapo OCD style distribution tool from Amazon is great so I'm sure there'd be solid, and they're really cheap!


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## johnnyka7 (Mar 5, 2018)

After a lot of reading and experimenting, I learned that it is better to keep some variables stable (e.g. dose and tamping), while you adjust others.

In your case, it seems that you need to focus on grinding and distribution.

With proper distribution, you might manage to get drinkable shots, even if the grinding is not totally perfect.

Personally, I grind in a shot glass and not in the portafilter. Then I distribute evenly the coffee in the basket little by little, while I am declumping the coffee with a paper clip (I have modified it a bit, so it has two heads instead of one







). Also, I like to move the coffee around in the basket for even better distribution.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

1:2 in 26 seconds. Tasted pretty good. Probably best shot yet from these beans. Still looks like it's channeling but I think the grind is now right. Thoughts?

[video=youtube;-3tjic1OhQA]


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> 1:2 in 26 seconds. Tasted pretty good. Probably best shot yet from these beans. Still looks like it's channeling but I think the grind is now right. Thoughts?.


Sounds like you're pretty much there. How much better do you need it to taste?


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Sounds like you're pretty much there. How much better do you need it to taste?


Well I suppose I'd like to try and fix the channeling so that I can get the best possible results from the beans with this equipment. If I can reproduce the above shot the next couple of times with no adjustments then I'd be satisfied the grind is good where it is. Next is technique I suppose...oh and these beans are about to run out...


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Are you using the Mazzer Mini? I don't think you'll be able to hit a particularly high extraction with it...


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

the_partisan said:


> Are you using the Mazzer Mini? I don't think you'll be able to hit a particularly high extraction with it...


Yes I bought it with the R58 but have a Niche on order which I suspect will be my espresso grinder when it arrives


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

GingerBen said:


> Yes I bought it with the R58 but have a Niche on order which I suspect will be my espresso grinder when it arrives


I think you can get SSP burrs for it, which should be a nice upgrade. But given you'll be getting a Niche, I guess it will make it redundant, more or less. Nice machine by the way!









I think with the Mazzers having a full hopper helps. Do you also have VST basket and a 58.4mm flat tamper? Having a good grinder makes such a difference and it will make your life much easier with regards to consistency and so on.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

GingerBen said:


> 1:2 in 26 seconds. Tasted pretty good. Probably best shot yet from these beans. Still looks like it's channeling but I think the grind is now right. Thoughts?
> 
> [video=youtube;-3tjic1OhQA]


Try this

Repeat shot as above with spouts, taste.

The visuals may now be putting you off enjoying a brew.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

the_partisan said:


> I think you can get SSP burrs for it, which should be a nice upgrade. But given you'll be getting a Niche, I guess it will make it redundant, more or less. Nice machine by the way!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think the SSP ones are worth it for this grinder tbh. I am considering getting some super jolly ones however just to speed it up as it is slow to grind 18g. I have an 18g VST and a Torr 58.5mm tamper so should be ok in that department.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

GingerBen said:


> I don't think the SSP ones are worth it for this grinder tbh. I am considering getting some super jolly ones however just to speed it up as it is slow to grind 18g. I have an 18g VST and a Torr 58.5mm tamper so should be ok in that department.


Plus one re SSP burrs for the mini.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Plus one re SSP burrs for the mini.


recommending or agreeing they aren't worth it for a mini?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

GingerBen said:


> recommending or agreeing they aren't worth it for a mini?


not worth it


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

It's all about the taste rather than how it looks, and some beans are just bitches. Having said that I've typically had extractions that look like that (though not nearly as bad) when the beans are either nearing the end of their lives or they are too fresh. I've had shots that looked similar when single dosing the Ceado and the old Eureka Mignon, especially when the grind wasn't perfect and it was incredibly difficult to dial a coffee in under those circumstances as well. So I'll ask the question, are you single dosing?

Cleaning behind your shower screen might help if it hasn't been done for a bit too. Other than that you need to be consistent with tamp strength. I don't do anything to distribute but palm tapping but I do use the OE jar with cone top to grind into just for the ease of weighing the dose.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Rob1 said:


> It's all about the taste rather than how it looks, and some beans are just bitches. Having said that I've typically had extractions that look like that (though not nearly as bad) when the beans are either nearing the end of their lives or they are too fresh. I've had shots that looked similar when single dosing the Ceado and the old Eureka Mignon, especially when the grind wasn't perfect and it was incredibly difficult to dial a coffee in under those circumstances as well. So I'll ask the question, are you single dosing?
> 
> Cleaning behind your shower screen might help if it hasn't been done for a bit too. Other than that you need to be consistent with tamp strength. I don't do anything to distribute but palm tapping but I do use the OE jar with cone top to grind into just for the ease of weighing the dose.


no I'm not single dosing. Machine is clean and shower screen is pretty much new so I think it's just my newbie technique at the moment. Going to stick with it for now and get some consistency then see where to go from there.


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