# Hi! Would appreciate help troubleshooting my new Sage Barista Touch!



## loucoffeehead (Aug 30, 2019)

To the coffee community,

This is my first post here and I am pleased to be able to join a community of like-minded people who appreciate decent coffee 

My husband and I recently purchased a Sage Barista Touch to fuel us during the day as we both work from home. Hoping we made the right choice!

I have been busy adjusting the grind setting on my beans (sticking to the same roast and always buying fresh), starting out at the 6 or 7 setting and working my way down as I find that with these beans you need to go finer with them to get a good extraction (and am I right in saying that you need to go finer with beans generally as they age?). Sorry I'm not a coffee expert by any means. I've just been weighing my beans in (20g) and weighing the final output, aiming for that 1:2 ratio as advised on the bag, and it pulls within 30 seconds by default (not sure if I can change these settings manually?)

Anyway, whenever I use the machine first thing in the morning, I'm generally happy with the flow/extraction, and at least it's consistent, but the second time around and third etc the coffee dribbles out of the portafilter (and I have to start all over again and re-grind). This happens all the time. I can't seem to get a consistent extraction! I have focused on cleaning the portafilter, making sure I am tamping with even pressure each time, and ensuring it's fully locked into place. I've run the machine through a clean cycle too. If i'm using the same beans, I would expect the extraction to be consistent once I'm happy with the original setting. I have since switched to a different brand of beans (Origin - resolute) and have this on setting 3 and the first time it pours fine, and the same thing happens again after the first attempt (dribbling out on one side, dripping rather than that consistent even flow!) Occasionally it'll go crazy too and be more like a fountain, producing far too much in 30 seconds. It's so temperamental!

Is there anything I can do to improve my extraction and try and aim for consistency? I imagine it's not the machine - and that it's me!

Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you.

p.s. I'm really impressed with the milk frother. I've attached a photo of my latest attempt at latte art (with oat milk - my staple milk).


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hi 20g seems a high dose for a standard basket

What amount of coffee is actually ending up in the portfilter as thi is the important bit ( to the nearest 0.1g not nearest 1g ) , Some bay be being retained fro the first shot .

More coffee = more resistance - slower flow .


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

You've most likely got some retention in the burrs so your first cup of the day is a mix of fresh & stale grinds from the day before. Try running a few grams through at the start of the day & discarding them to purge the system before making your first shot.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I'm not familiar with the touch only the ordinary be. What range of numbers are available for setting and what does the manual suggest you start at ?

John

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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> You've most likely got some retention in the burrs so your first cup of the day is a mix of fresh & stale grinds from the day before. Try running a few grams through at the start of the day & discarding them to purge the system before making your first shot.


Almost definitely this.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

KTD said:


> Almost definitely this.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 There can be a number of things that can go on in Sage grinders.

And whoops if some one needs to look at the range of numbers do it after the grinder has been run until it's empty.

I should have also asked if the OP was weighing beans in or using it with hopper?

John

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## loucoffeehead (Aug 30, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> Hi 20g seems a high dose for a standard basket
> 
> What amount of coffee is actually ending up in the portfilter as thi is the important bit ( to the nearest 0.1g not nearest 1g ) , Some bay be being retained fro the first shot .
> 
> More coffee = more resistance - slower flow .


 that's a good point - I haven't weighed the ground beans but that could well be an issue...... in the instruction manual it says:

"For optimal flavour when using a 1 CUP filter basket, you should extract approx. 1oz / 30ml. When using a 2 CUP filter basket, you should extract approx. 2oz / 60ml."

I'm using the 2 cup basket.

But it also says beans-wise:

BALANCED Optimum 8-10g (1 cup) 15-18g (2 cup).

So I'm using 19-20g and after the machine grinds it I use the trim tool that comes with it to level it evenly and that shaves off a bit (that's why I sometimes use 20g).

On the bag it says you should aim for a 1:2 ratio but the instructions are saying 60ml from 15-18g beans, which is confusing. I just aim for double and weigh that.

But I will start weighing the ground beans!


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## loucoffeehead (Aug 30, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> You've most likely got some retention in the burrs so your first cup of the day is a mix of fresh & stale grinds from the day before. Try running a few grams through at the start of the day & discarding them to purge the system before making your first shot.


 thank you, I will try purging the system in the morning (good idea!)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

loucoffeehead said:


> that's a good point - I haven't weighed the ground beans but that could well be an issue...... in the instruction manual it says:
> 
> "For optimal flavour when using a 1 CUP filter basket, you should extract approx. 1oz / 30ml. When using a 2 CUP filter basket, you should extract approx. 2oz / 60ml."
> 
> ...


 Ignore the sage instructions , weigh whats in the basket , ditch the razor

I would guess the Sage basket can hold 18g , try that

Aim for your 1:2 as a starting point


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## loucoffeehead (Aug 30, 2019)

ajohn said:


> I'm not familiar with the touch only the ordinary be. What range of numbers are available for setting and what does the manual suggest you start at ?
> 
> John
> 
> -


 The manual says to grind "fine, but not too fine" - not the most helpful! There are 30 settings - 30 being the most course and 0 being the finest setting. I start at 7 and usually end up going down to 4 or 3, so quite fine. Sometimes I'll go up to 5, 6 and it will flow too quickly.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

loucoffeehead said:


> thank you, I will try purging the system in the morning (good idea!)


In theory if you purge the machine a little and don't loosen up the grind from what it is now it will pull as the second shot does

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

loucoffeehead said:


> The manual says to grind "fine, but not too fine" - not the most helpful! There are 30 settings - 30 being the most course and 0 being the finest setting. I start at 7 and usually end up going down to 4 or 3, so quite fine. Sometimes I'll go up to 5, 6 and it will flow too quickly.


 There is no universal grind setting for coffee, that why you end up with vague instructions like fine but not too fine

Lower dose means less resistance so a finer grind

Higher dose means more resistance so a coarser grind

Ligher roasted coffee requires a finer grind than darker roasted coffee

So you can see why " Set it at 8 " isnt applicable


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## loucoffeehead (Aug 30, 2019)

Should I run a few grams through the grinder only to



KTD said:


> In theory if you purge the machine a little and don't loosen up the grind from what it is now it will pull as the second shot does
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 To purge the system should I press the brew button with the portafilter in the grouphead - to run water through it for a few seconds - before I make every coffee? I tend to just rinse the portafilter out each time and turn it upside down to dry. Or do I just need to run a few grams of beans through the grinder first thing to remove any stale beans?


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## loucoffeehead (Aug 30, 2019)

I just weighed 18g (going in and the grinds too - 18g.....unfortunately I do not have coffee scales so I can't be accurate to the nearest .1) using a 4 setting. I got 69g output! Too fast.

I weighed another 18g out, moved the dial down to 3 and it dribbled again and I got 19g output.

Such a waste of good coffee!


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Sorry when I said purge I purely meant get rid of any coffee that may be sitting within the grinder, a few seconds should be ample, I'd start off doing a reasonable amount though so you can dial in the correct setting on the grinder and then work your way down to a second or two depending on if you notice it running through to quickly. If you want to see just how differently stale coffee extracts grind a dose and leave it over night and then make a coffee with it and you will magnify the effects you're currently having

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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Dose. Yield. Time.

Dose - weight the amount of grams in the portafilter

Yield - weigh the amount of output in grams in the cup.

Time - the output should take about 25-30 secs to give the desired yield (which is what will determine the ratio).

If the time's not right for the desired yield, grind finer for slower and coarser for faster.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Sage grinders need to grind a fair number of doses before they settle down however they are used.

It sounds like you may be weighing beans in. That can be done but they still need to settle down before they work sensibly. Main problem then is that sticky beans. Some are and eventually clog it up which means starting all over again. They are really intended to be used with a hopper of beans on along with the timer and then shouldn't clog. Never did for me but one did when I weighed certain beans in. It was ok for say 15 shots and then clogged.

The basic reason they behave like this is down to a certain amount of permanent grinds retention. It gets very compacted and output can be all over the place especially initially until it is. Once it is well compacted it's best left like that for as long as possible.

As it sounds like it's not settled down to me. I would suggest you weigh in 20g of beans, run the grinder until it's very clear that all have been ground, tamp and then use the razor tool. When you tamp strain a little as it needs to be 10kg or more which is likely to feel rather heavy to some one starting out. It needs to be consistent and straining a bit will help with that. Some press the tamper onto scales to get an idea of the pressure. Maybe worry if it turns out to be over 15kg. Even bathroom scales will give a rough idea. If the razor tool isn't scraping a small quantity of grinds off weigh in more.

When you are weighing beans in it will virtually clear the grinds chamber except for the compacted stuff so there is no need to worry about what's left. If you change bean any taste from the previous one will be gone after 2 double shots and is likely to be undetectable after the first. I used to just drink them.

When ever you set the grinder finer only do it one step at a time. You may break something if you don't but by the sound of the number range 2 should be ok. Also always waste a couple of grams of beans as it will interfere with the compacted stuff a little. Actually people should always run the grinder when setting finer but people get away with small changes. When going coarser still waste a couple of grams of grinds.

Your grinder may have clogged already by the sound of it. Hard to say without looking at it. Photo of the inside with the hopper off and the outer bur removed would help. If all ok you'll see metal bits sticking out around the inner bur. Grinds under these and around the edge. The metal bits and bur should be pretty clean. There is likely to be some grinds on them especially the bur.

When and if you buy coffee scales make sure that they can weigh the portafilter as you may want to do that later to check the quantity of grinds in the basket. The razor tool gives a starting weight and you may be better off using a bit more or a bit less. Small platform scales make this harder to do accurately. People on here can advise which ones to buy bearing this in mind -  you wouldn't want to use the ones I use.

If beans in the hopper and timer in use the razor tool can be used while the timer is being set more accurately - it's main purpose in life really. I always used it when setting the grinder for a new bean. It's the easiest way of keeping the dose of grinds sensible while changed are made - even when weighing beans in.

May well be worth mentioning ratios of grams grinds in to grams of shot out - best check that with scales as well. 2kg scales with 0.1g readings will handle all that is needed for an espresso machine. 1gm out = 1ml. Sage mention a ratio 18g in to 60g out. I'd suggest you try that region and work down. if needed. Taste is the main aim.

The Touch may like the straight Barista Express have other factors which differ from other makes but I think the above is enough for now. See how you go and come back. It sounds like they have put the Sage Grinder Pro adjustment mechanism in the Touch. Sort of lowest number I would expect to have to use on that is roughly 6 and often higher but grinders vary.

John

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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Once it's settled in, if it's like my BE, you can weigh in and out with <0.5g difference


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

-Mac said:


> Once it's settled in, if it's like my BE, you can weigh in and out with <0.5g difference


 0.5 g variance is toooooooooooooooo much for me


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> 0.5 g variance is toooooooooooooooo much for me


 Me too. I single-dose weigh in slightly more and still weight the output, but at least it's close.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> 0.5 g variance is toooooooooooooooo much for me


  Can't be doing it right. Mine came out same or +/- 0.1g. That seemed to be down to tiny bits lodging on top of the burrs and sometimes going in and sometimes not.

It didn't like my oily monsooned malabar weighed in though. Curiously a fair number of kg went in via the hopper and timer with very very low variance without any problems at all. Once settled to the bean several timer adjustments a week and then maybe one or two a week. Insanely small adjustments due to the BE's knob. Odd thing was that time always had to be increased yet actual grind didn't change. New batch of beans same source and all still ok. The moral in my view is never ever clean then unless it's absolutely essential. It will be eventually. That's when mine broke. It had a stiff spot at 4 from new so when it was totally empty and clean I ran it back and forth several times over the full range. Stiff spot went and then it would not go down to the settings I use. Burs stopped moving at 8 and did move above that. The engineer left the bits with me and I still can't really see how this happened. He was bemused as well.

LOL I'm looking forwards to the BE running again. Then I can compare BE grinder and machine against Niche and the DB with the same dose size.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

These machines ( sage ) are not set up to single dose to be honest , they will do you better with a stash of beans in the hopper , you wont have to grind as fine , and your shots will probably be a bit more consistent .

If you are hell bent on single dosing , you'll need to stir or shake up the grinds at bit after grinding .


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

ajohn said:


> Can't be doing it right. Mine came out same or +/- 0.1g. That seemed to be down to tiny bits lodging on top of the burrs and sometimes going in and sometimes not.
> 
> -


 Why not? 20.5g in, 20g out. Next time, 21g in 20.5g out. It's just fine tuning. All grinders may vary.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

-Mac said:


> Why not? 20.5g in, 20g out. Next time, 21g in 20.5g out. It's just fine tuning. All grinders may vary.


 It's the sort of change that I would expect due to a change maybe correcting over a couple of shots due to something changing - setting or beans.

As to how long they can be used for weighing in - depends on the beans. If they clear the grind chamber cleanly every time no problems. I some sticks to the exit from the chamber there will be problems at some point. It will just build up.

20g in the double sounds a bit high to me but I mostly used the single and a modified basket of another make that held circa 14-15g. It really is worth checking doses with the razor tool and using that as a basis.

If some one wants to control their tamping one of these *may* be a good idea. It is easier to see and check that the sage tamper is level though.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Calibrated-Espresso-Stainless-Pressing-Ergonomics/dp/B07PTN386H/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?keywords=54mm+tamper&qid=1567185434&s=gateway&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&smid=A3MZ4ZESN9VPVL&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFZRTIxUk5RRDJCWFcmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAyNzQ3NTExN09DSDQxNFFQSkVTJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3MzI1NTUzTUxSTDFKRTNFMENUJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

I use the 58mm one on the DB. They can be adjusted as well but needs a spanner as the treads are likely to be pretty tight.

John

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## loucoffeehead (Aug 30, 2019)

ajohn said:


> Sage grinders need to grind a fair number of doses before they settle down however they are used.
> 
> It sounds like you may be weighing beans in. That can be done but they still need to settle down before they work sensibly. Main problem then is that sticky beans. Some are and eventually clog it up which means starting all over again. They are really intended to be used with a hopper of beans on along with the timer and then shouldn't clog. Never did for me but one did when I weighed certain beans in. It was ok for say 15 shots and then clogged.
> 
> ...


 Thank you for weighing in and for all those tips. I will take a closer look at the grinder to see if it's clogged. Will send a photo and come back if it hasn't been resolved!


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