# What would you want to see in a grinder?



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Complete disclosure before I get into this as I want to be completely upfront about what I am trying to achieve. I have been looking to develop a single dosing flat burr grinder to come in under the £1000 mark. I have my own idea on burr geometry, motor speed and grind path and have put together the beginnings of the project. What I am interested in is what the end user would want from the grinder, from footprint, aesthetics and functionality.

I am not doing this on behalf of another company or seeking to make comparisons with other grinders that are already out there, I am doing this to develop a grinder that I have wanted to build for quite some time, so all your feedback and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Oooooo this sounds exciting 😁 let me get my inspiration cap on......


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Great disclaimer chap.

Low retention, high EY, easy cleaning (not losing calibration/zero point), fine adjustment, small footprint, lack of thwacking required. Might make rethink about owning EK.


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@coffeechap - Same as above, but would prefer it to have industry standard parts and burrs to make repairs easier.

Basically what you would get if you crossed a Niche with an EK43s, but so it can fit under cupboards and remove the need for fancy grease or a 3nm torque keys in the maintenance regime...


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

Would be great to see this come to fruition .. Is this based on an established grinder or a ground up development ?

My likes would be big burrs , well aligned and no popcorning . Plus all that @PPapa said 😬


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

i'd like it to be under £500 😛.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Fits under a cabinet and minimal footprint m think niche or Lagom size .

flat burrs 64mm or above , ssp look like they do some good ones at the mo.

nice like retention and fluffy Grind delivery , the niche is suprisingly good at this

single dosed with a weight or flow control device .

comes with trustworthy alignment

perhaps even with a purpose built holder or funnel for 58 mm pf


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

I like the cup option of the Niche, but I do miss the ability to just stick in a portafilter. For the Decent, that is overcome by a portafilter holder BUT there's not enough clearance for a spouted portafilter and the holder.

All that is to say: either the similar cup option, or enough clearance below the chute for modded parts to be added by enterprising modders.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

PPapa said:


> Great disclaimer chap.
> 
> Low retention, high EY, easy cleaning (not losing calibration/zero point), fine adjustment, small footprint, lack of thwacking required. Might make rethink about owning EK.


 The intention is zero retention, have coatings in the pipeline to lessen the need for cleaning, I agree that small footprint is essential and is certainly high up on my priorities. Thanks for the feedback though


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

facboy said:


> i'd like it to be under £500 😛.


 So would I but that is quite a hard call as the motor will be industry standard so very robust.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Nicknak said:


> Would be great to see this come to fruition .. Is this based on an established grinder or a ground up development ?
> 
> My likes would be big burrs , well aligned and no popcorning . Plus all that @PPapa said 😬


 Big burrs may be a big ask however precision burrs and alignment are on the agenda


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Designed for its market and price point.

I think the Niche nails that it in most departments tbh.

I'd like to see an entry level espresso grinder for entry level espresso. No need for industry rated motors or, high load and usage components. At most, it will be used 2-3 times a day, Plastic gears are fine, no i don't want a 4 gallon hopper. No need for dosers or what have you. a straight in-out path is cool. Keep dead space to a minimum and if retention is unavoidable, make it easy to clear without purging or dismantling. No need for lights and lcds and whatever. a stepless adjustment, but with some indications and a quick adjustment feature. A magnetic dispensing cup to fit in/under the chute to eliminate mess and which is able to be used for different portafilters would be good. User servicable with parts available.


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## Ozzyjohn (May 31, 2020)

All good points made above plus - it would have to look good sat next to my Niche. Not necessarily look similar, but at least not look out of place next to each other.

Thanks.

John


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

coffeechap said:


> So would I but that is quite a hard call as the motor will be industry standard so very robust.


 See my reply.

Why industry rated? Industry doesn't do single dose machines just for use 2-3 times a day. It would be like putting a ferrari engine in a Ford Fiesta. It would bump up the costs and kill most of the demand. If you wan't industry standard, there are plenty of those out there.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

filthynines said:


> I like the cup option of the Niche, but I do miss the ability to just stick in a portafilter. For the Decent, that is overcome by a portafilter holder BUT there's not enough clearance for a spouted portafilter and the holder.
> 
> All that is to say: either the similar cup option, or enough clearance below the chute for modded parts to be added by enterprising modders.


 Being a seasoned modder myself I certainly appreciate the wants of folk and will welcome anyone modifying it for their needs. What I will take away is perhaps incorporating different options for the needs of the individual.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

coffeechap said:


> Big burrs may be a big ask however precision burrs and alignment are on the agenda


 I did think that within the budget it would be a big ask .. But with precision burrs and really good alignment you should be on a winner ..

You haven't bought a CNC lathe and milling machine gave you ..😂


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

For me:

-Built in alignment, no pissing around with shims, etc.
-Biggest burr diameter relative to small footprint - preferably standard sizing fitting to be able to try new burrs
-Low retention (don't mind a thwak if it's needed)
-Ability to have fine espresso adjustment but go to pour-over levels (don't really care about french press and above with a flat) - wouldn't be against having multiple threads (maybe espresso/turkish - mid-range/multitask - filter) that you could chop/change for each task

Personally I really don't care about variable RPM that everybody seems to try to offer these days. Nor do I care how long it takes to grind


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Designed for its market and price point.
> 
> I think the Niche nails that it in most departments tbh.
> 
> I'd like to see an entry level espresso grinder for entry level espresso. No need for industry rated motors or, high load and usage components. At most, it will be used 2-3 times a day, Plastic gears are fine, no i don't want a 4 gallon hopper. No need for dosers or what have you. a straight in-out path is cool. Keep dead space to a minimum and if retention is unavoidable, make it easy to clear without purging or dismantling. No need for lights and lcds and whatever. a stepless adjustment, but with some indications and a quick adjustment feature. A magnetic dispensing cup to fit in/under the chute to eliminate mess and which is able to be used for different portafilters would be good. User servicable with parts available.


 Some great stuff there, I am totally with you in relation to fancy add ons and lights, I am thinking really simple but really good. I agree Niche have done a great job, however it is a conic and my desire is to push extraction further than the capabilities is conical burrs. It will certainly have as straight a throughput as can be based on the footprint and design and will be single dose oriented so no need for a hopper per se.

Thanjs for your inputs though, lots to think about


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Power Freak said:


> For me:
> 
> -Built in alignment, no pissing around with shims, etc.
> -Biggest burr diameter relative to small footprint - preferably standard sizing fitting to be able to try new burrs
> ...


 Burr size will be a standard size, and as best fit for aftermarket upgrades should folk want to try different burrs, however burr choice has been high on my agenda and is one of the driving factors keeping the cost higher than other grinders. So hopefully there will not be a need to change the burrs!


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

I want to see wooden parts that can be customised ☺

Definitely restricted height would be great for those that need them to tuck under cupboards.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

joey24dirt said:


> I want to see wooden parts that can be customised ☺
> 
> Definitely restricted height would be great for those that need them to tuck under cupboards.


 I thought you would be part of the design team 😇


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Put me down for a beta tester plz

I have access to destruction test facility , sisters kitchen . If it lasts a week with her it's fit for purpose . More influences than the Bermuda Triangle . Any weakness she will find it (expect a foot missing on its return )


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

joey24dirt said:


> I want to see wooden parts that can be customised ☺
> 
> Definitely restricted height would be great for those that need them to tuck under cupboards.


 Of course, custom panels are already factored in, just need a couple of guys up to the job of making them now, know anyone? 😉


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Thecatlinux said:


> (expect a foot missing on its return )


 It won't be that tall !


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## lhavelund (Dec 28, 2018)

More or less covered off by everyone here. Industry standard burrs, built-in calibration/alignment, relatively small foot print, not offensive on the worktop (think appliance-esque like the Niche)... I basically want a flat burr Niche, thinking about it.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

coffeechap said:


> The intention is zero retention, have coatings in the pipeline to lessen the need for cleaning, I agree that small footprint is essential and is certainly high up on my priorities. Thanks for the feedback though


Thanks. My EK43s is certainly not zero retention, hence I mentioned low retention.

I get about -0.3g when grinding finer and +0.3g when grinding coarser. It's "zero point something" retention and I can live with that.

Happy to join a party for testing/beta thing of course.

Also, what burrs are you thinking of? 75mm?


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

> 48 minutes ago, joey24dirt said:
> 
> I want to see wooden parts that can be customised ☺
> 
> Definitely restricted height would be great for those that need them to tuck under cupboards.


 Of course, custom panels are already factored in, just need a couple of guys up to the job of ma

@joey24dirt is very good 👍


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

What about some kind of smartphone connectivity? Could set up condition monitoring or cleaning schedules ( probs blow the brief budget )


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## AndyJP80 (Aug 4, 2020)

Essentially an EK43 with at least 75% of the burr size but with half the foot print. I love my EK43S (no exaggeration) but in the age of the Tesla, does the motor need to be that big (Dyson for example are doing great things with digital motors). And whilst I was happy with alignment out of the box, it shouldn't have to be a lottery.

It'd be great to be able to have optional add ons, too, for portafilter dosing for example, which don't cost the earth.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Nicknak said:


> > 48 minutes ago, joey24dirt said:
> >
> > I want to see wooden parts that can be customised ☺
> >
> ...


 @joey24dirt is awesome so are a couple of others on here 😉


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

coffeechap said:


> @joey24dirt is awesome so are a couple of others on here 😉


 The other chap was that @jimbojohn55 he is really good 😂😂😂


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## Planter (Apr 12, 2017)

64-80mm aligned precision burrs. With options on burr style. Ssp do a great range currently. Adjustable height and width of PF holder so it can be used with a portafilter or cup for pour over use aswell. Low overall height to aid regular use in a normal kitchen as well as single dosing.

I'll keep thinking...

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Nicknak said:


> The other chap was that @jimbojohn55 he is really good 😂😂😂


 I do believe I used plural!


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

I want it to look more like the Lagom, monolith etc than the niche.

largeish burrs (64mm+)

good alignment

low retention but not bothered about 0. Less than 0.5g I guess.


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## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

A flat 85mm burr, zero retention, single dosing grinder with an integrated scale/portafilter holder and automatic weight dosage accurate to 0.1g.

I'd like it to look monolithic and true to function with no fussy detailing and minimal use of plastic. Several colour options wouldn't go amiss!

If you need product styling/artists impressions, I'm a concept artist with a background in product design. Might be interested in a project!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

DRAXXMENVONE said:


> A flat 85mm burr, zero retention, single dosing grinder with an integrated scale/portafilter holder and automatic weight dosage accurate to 0.1g.
> 
> I'd like it to look monolithic and true to function with no fussy detailing and minimal use of plastic. Several colour options wouldn't go amiss!
> 
> If you need product styling/artists impressions, I'm a concept artist with a background in product design. Might be interested in a project!


 You may well get a call, cheers


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Better than the spoonomatic2020


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## sixpence (Jul 31, 2020)

joey24dirt said:


> What about some kind of smartphone connectivity? Could set up condition monitoring or cleaning schedules ( probs blow the brief budget )


 Only if that's optional. Eyes and a calendar reminder would suffice for a lot of people (I think?).

If it adds hundreds to the price, it becomes less of a unique selling point and more of a thing that could constrict the potential market.

Necessary disclaimer: I work in tech, but am a complete curmudgeon when it comes to the "internet of things" and device interconnectedness etc.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I think this promises to be very useful and informative, thread, especially keen to see details of the design. Loving all the ideas though and will be keeping a close eye on this thread for sure.

A suggestion would be for some sort of blue tooth intergration with the Londinium, like LM and NS do with some of their grinders.,

What are the thoughts on timescale for this grinder?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

DRAXXMENVONE said:


> A flat 85mm burr, zero retention, single dosing grinder with an integrated scale/portafilter holder and automatic weight dosage accurate to 0.1g.


 This cannot be done with a single doser, +/-0.1g is your variance in wholebean dosed into the grinder.

Dose consistency generally will be about +/-0.4g at best, without sweeping/air puffing etc."Zero retention" doesn't mean 0.00g retention, it usually means less than +/-0.5g dose consistency.

If this grinder would be suitable for brewed, proven recipes would be nice, after all, the thing must have been tested & the tester knew how they set it & what they did with the brew. So, it also needs a quick & reliable method for zeroing/calibration & to be marked in meaningful graduations.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MWJB said:


> This cannot be done with a single doser, +/-0.1g is your variance in wholebean dosed into the grinder.


 I'd agree.. in fact I did want to ask more about



> On 04/08/2020 at 22:15, DRAXXMENVONE said:
> 
> A flat 85mm burr, zero retention, single dosing grinder with an integrated scale/portafilter holder and automatic weight dosage accurate to 0.1g.


 I could not quite understand the concept being requested.



If it's got zero retention, you get out what you put in, so automatic weight dosage and a scale on the portafilter would seem to be unnecessary?


Wasn't sure if it meant having a hopper and a portioning system for accurate weights out of the hopper before they enter the grinding chamber but if so the comment above still applies. If indeed there is a 0.01g automatic portioning system from the hopper it would be extremely clever and needs to be patented, as that's groundbreaking


If you do have a hopperless grinder that stops at 0.1 accuracy, you would have to be super careful feeding the beans in and waiting in case the grinder stops just as you tip more in.


I realise it's blue sky but it would be interesting to understand properly the vision of the requestor here as I'm probably being a bit slow on this one..

*Awesome project though.....*


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I think this promises to be very useful and informative, thread, especially keen to see details of the design. Loving all the ideas though and will be keeping a close eye on this thread for sure.
> 
> A suggestion would be for some sort of blue tooth intergration with the Londinium, like LM and NS do with some of their grinders.,
> 
> What are the thoughts on timescale for this grinder?


 Not sure that Bluetooth integration is really necessary on a single doser but it's certainly a thought. Looking to farm out some prototypes later in the year for field testing


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Not sure that Bluetooth integration is really necessary on a single doser but it's certainly a thought. Looking to farm out some prototypes later in the year for field testing


 If you get them to the right people, I'm sure it will do well.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I'd agree.. in fact I did want to ask more about
> 
> I could not quite understand the concept being requested.
> 
> ...


 Grind by weight mechanism is probably pushing the boundaries and as this is primarily a single dosing grinder aimed specifically at home users or as a roasting aid for profiling, I do not see that need for it. DaveC is spot on here that it would be groundbreaking and extremely difficult. Even the mythos2 gravimetric has issues as the grind speed has to be reduced to get dose accuracy and this speed reduction affects particle size.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> If you get them to the right people, I'm sure it will do well.


 I really will just need folk to be honest about it and hopefully iron out any shortcomings, as you know field testing is paramount with any coffee related product


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Bluetooth integration I'm not sure either , to many electronics will bog you down in the design and build


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> I really will just need folk to be honest about it and hopefully iron out any shortcomings, as you know field testing is paramount with any coffee related product


 That's why selecting the right people with the right skills, honesty and integrity is so important. I'm sure you already have the right type of people in mind for field testing.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> That's why selecting the right people with the right skills, honesty and integrity is so important. I'm sure you already have the right type of people in mind for field testing.


 Genuinely don't yet may open it up here nearer the time


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Precision alignment, precision burrs. Something to help feed the beans in consistently, or to otherwise minimise the effect of single dosing. Could this be variable speed as it grinds through the dose - e.g you input your dose and the grinder sets a spin speed profile? The ability to clean without losing grind setting.

Perhaps built in scales though not really a necessity.

Would be nice to be able to adjust the grinder electronically for precision.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Isn't the market already pretty saturated with grinder choice? The Niche captured a niche because it does a pretty decent job and, price-wise, it's good value down to the fact you're buying direct from the manufacturer. If you want to go bells and whistles - say, a grinder that self aligns to an accuracy plus/minus one micron, you're going to pay an arm and a leg for the pleasure. Personally, my choice would be a try uni-modal grinder that laser scans each dose and produces a certificate to verify accuracy. And I'd like it all for under £500.00.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Isn't the market already pretty saturated with grinder choice? The Niche captured a niche because it does a pretty decent job and, price-wise, it's good value down to the fact you're buying direct from the manufacturer. If you want to go bells and whistles - say, a grinder that self aligns to an accuracy plus/minus one micron, you're going to pay an arm and a leg for the pleasure. Personally, my choice would be a try uni-modal grinder that laser scans each dose and produces a certificate to verify accuracy. And I'd like it all for under £500.00.


 For brewed there's also the Wilfa flat burr grinder, great value for money but not as substantial in feel as the Niche.

Aaah, "unimodal" grinders, the 'Monkey's Paw' of grinders, the thing that people are sure they want for espresso, until they get it.


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## Arabidopsis (Mar 28, 2020)

Please don't add any unnecessary electronics, lights, bluetooth etc... as I feel is the case with the Wilfa Uniform. I'd rather have something more 'basic' with high quality components that will last a lifetime, and that is easy to take apart to clean and reassemble .
The more accessories it has, the higher the chance something will break and while it might possible to get it repaired at the moment, you never know where the world is at in 10 years time. I guess that is why I still prefer manual window cranks in my car...


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Interesting thread. I don't have the breadth of knowledge to contribute but as a general thought I find there's a lot of focus on 'high end' (ie: expensive) equipment in the coffee game. I commend a flat burr SD machine for £1k and I understand that is cheap for what it is, but that's because all this stuff is wildly expensive to start with. Is the cost really that high? Or because it's so few are sold and so they need to make money somehow? Or is it like smartphones where the mark up is just huge?

Given 'real coffee' starts (new price) at Classic+grinder or Sage, that's £500ish, too much for entry for many. Next 'level' is something like Mara X + grinder, that's about £1350 upwards. Given home espresso has exploded somewhat over the last few years, I would have thought the expandable market would be at that end rather than the rarefied higher end?

I imagine OP is doing this for their own enjoyment and interest, I'm not knocking that, a flat burr SD machine for under £1k would be a very welcome edition, I'm just surprised we're not seeing companies target the £500-£1000 all in market more. It won't be, but I like the idea of the ECM Puriskita being cheap to target that gap in the market.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> For brewed there's also the Wilfa flat burr grinder, great value for money but not as substantial in feel as the Niche.
> 
> Aaah, "unimodal" grinders, the 'Monkey's Paw' of grinders, the thing that people are sure they want for espresso, until they get it. 🙂


 You are so out of touch , no modal burrs are the way to go now .


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> You are so out of touch , no modal burrs are the way to go now .


 Is the new Rhino uni-modal??


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Unimodal , spoon is the way forward , on leaves one bean behind


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

*All the best for the project!*

I would like to see single dosing grinder with minimum electronic parts. Just switch on, plug the pF, pour the coffee beans, wait several second for the grinding to complete, take the PF, tamp, brew.

Would be great to have vertical burrs. If sky is the limit I would put the SSP 98mm high uniformity as a standard, with options to exchange for SSP brew burrs or SSP Italian espresso. Perfect alignment from factory. A big benefit would be the ability to easily switch between burrs sets.

Easy to clean.

Would be ideal, if the grinder is near zero retention (under 1g), and deals with the static so RDT is not necessary.

If grinding directly to PF, the distribution of the coffee should be good enough, that only tamping is needed.

The grinder should be quiet, level of Niche, Eureka Silenzio, Mythos, etzMAX, not the level of Sette or EK43.


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## SDM (Apr 1, 2020)

I have a few concerns regarding Bluetooth connectivity:

1) is it actually necessary or is it a solution to a problem that doesn't exist? Everything is capable of connecting to Bluetooth these days but just because it can be done doesn't mean it should. My toothbrush can connect to Bluetooth, why??? It doesn't make my teeth any cleaner, it will have increased the purchase cost and it's an extra thing to go wrong without adding any useful functionality. I care about single dosing, minimal retention, quality of the grind, and a simple, clean workflow. I think adding connectivity just distracts development time and costs away from the grinder's main purpose.

2) the UI of the apps that go with most Bluetooth connected equipment is terrible. It would be a shame if I ended up disliking or avoiding buying an otherwise decent grinder just because a peripheral app was annoying or buggy. I know I'm not alone in wanting to avoid messing around with Bluetooth connectivity before I've had coffee or breakfast in the morning. It takes about 10 seconds to set up a recurring reminder on my phone for maintenance/cleaning etc. If I had to setup a new app to do the same task, it would be a waste of the developer's time and mine.

3) it creates a rod for the backs of manufacturer/developer. Once it has Bluetooth connectivity, you need to provide support for the lifetime of the machine if the machine is going to keep all of its functionality. There are grinders and espresso machines that are decades old and are still going strong because they are simple, reliable, and repairable. Will that be the case for many of our Bluetooth connected devices?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Better than the spoonomatic2020
> 
> View attachment 43599


 @Mrboots2u Is this Numberwang ?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Thanks a lot, great feedback folks, in answer to @CocoLoco , the margins would not be huge at all and components get quite expensive in small amounts, what I am not goi g to do is use a cheap motor as the burr I am considering need to be driven correctly.

@pj.walczak I intend to keep things very simple with the option for folk to use different aftermarket burrs should they choose to. Going with a really expensive burr set to begin with will drive the end price up and ideally I want this to be way less than 1k to the end user. I really robot see the new fit of lots of electronics and will take a leaf out of niches book in relation to simple is good.


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

@coffeechap - yes, makes perfect sense to start with standard burrs if you want to keep the price at reasonable level. However, it would be great, if there will be option to upgrade to different burr set, when ordering the grinder, to make sure end-user doesn't have play with alignment. So we start with price X with standard burr, then you have an option for SSP for +250 GBP, etc... Unless you believe there won't be any benefit of different burr set like SSP HU.


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## tsouthwell (Jul 17, 2020)

Arabidopsis said:


> Please don't add any unnecessary electronics, lights, bluetooth etc... as I feel is the case with the Wilfa Uniform. I'd rather have something more 'basic' with high quality components that will last a lifetime, and that is easy to take apart to clean and reassemble .
> The more accessories it has, the higher the chance something will break and while it might possible to get it repaired at the moment, you never know where the world is at in 10 years time. I guess that is why I still prefer manual window cranks in my car...


Definitely agree. I wouldn't complain about features like this as long as I can still use it by itself (without a phone, etc)

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk


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## Saltydog (Jan 27, 2019)

Everything I'd like to see is already mentioned 😀

A couple of small things on the practicality side of things.

1. Allen key heads rather than screw heads for maintenance cleaning.

2. Maybe a detachable power cable ? (More costly material wise I know)

my 2 pence worth.

Great too see someone taking this on the very best off luck 👍


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## Bacms (Jul 25, 2019)

Would be interesting to see what comes out of this. I think it will all come down to price unfortunately.


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## siliconslave (Feb 18, 2020)

I'm looking for 'something' at the moment - pretty much a Niche but in a case that complements a modern machine, for under 1k

I guess theres a market for both single does and on demand grinders so maybe the option of each setup - one with timer & hopper and one with some sort of single dose funnel & weight/nfc disk.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

siliconslave said:


> I'm looking for 'something' at the moment - pretty much a Niche but in a case that complements a modern machine, for under 1k
> 
> I guess theres a market for both single does and on demand grinders so maybe the option of each setup - one with timer & hopper and one with some sort of single dose funnel & weight/nfc disk.


 I think it must be worth hanging on for this CC1 grinder (I love naming stuff) development. There seems to be quite a team getting behind the production of this one....I really am keen to see what pops out of this.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> @Mrboots2u Is this Numberwang ?


 If you have to ask then clearly it isn't

It may of course be cutlerywang


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## siliconslave (Feb 18, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> I think it must be worth hanging on for this CC1 grinder (I love naming stuff) development. There seems to be quite a team getting behind the production of this one....I really am keen to see what pops out of this.


 Will have to hold onto my purse strings in that case 🙂


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## ooglewoogle (Oct 2, 2018)

Exciting project!

It's hard to think of anything outside the box....just a case of hitting all the fundamentals well: as big a perfectly-aligned, quality burrset as poss; direct to portafilter dosing; well thought-out , repeatable, dialing set up. Design-wise, I am more function over form, and would have a preference for simply engineered and robust.


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## DRAXXMENVONE (Jun 19, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> I could not quite understand the concept being requested.
> 
> 
> If it's got zero retention, you get out what you put in, so automatic weight dosage and a scale on the portafilter would seem to be unnecessary?
> ...


I was wondering if the burrs could sit at 45 degrees and be combined with either a puffer or more elegantly a mechanical bellows or fan to clear the burrs.

Yup- hadn't considered that zero retention negates weighing the dose. I guess I mean low retention combined with a weight sensor.

I'd be interested to see a low retention flat burr grinder as the conical burrs are primarily what put me off the niche.

Ultimately something that benefits from the granular accuracy of large flat burrs with the most minimal of retention.

I only mentioned the weight switch as it's a mod I'm considering making to my Mazzer because it'd be cool more than anything else! Probably impractical as someone else mentioned, you'd need to slow the burrs near the end of the grind. That or be fantastically good at physics and coding!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I intend to check in regularly on this project to see how it's progressing.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

It would be handy to have a single dose grinder that would be able to grind a larger amount of beans on the occasions you wanted while still benefitting from being able to single dose, could act as a hopper too if needed. I often grind larger amounts for people to take home with them and with the niche it's slow progress. I realise it's kind of backwards but would be useful.

I also want it to be a perfect match for the LC. £2000 all in for the perfect small setup.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RichieBisset (Sep 5, 2020)

I'd fundamentally agree with comments about unnecessary electronics, they would add to cost one way or another, wither build cost sourcing really high quality, reliable parts or maintenance costs long term. I'd suggest the simpler the better.

I really considered a niche when buying my new grinder but as I favour really light roasts I didn't want to gamble £500 on conical burrs. I wish this product was already there as I'd have bought it over the Atom 60 I opted for.

I guess simplicity and reliability are key. Something that is easy to clean and maintain, I like the eurekas for that fact, I can clean it easily without dicking about with grind settings and threadings afterwards. I'm not fussed about bells and whistles. I can weigh my basket before and after grinding so don't need scales and if it's a single doser don't need a timer either.

I teach on a user experience course and cover a fair bit of design thinking too so have experience collating user test data if that can be of any help when you get to the prototyping and testing phase.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

As a company, how can you control any sort of quality control or ensure uniformity if you intend to allow folks to fit whatever after market burrs from a list? If I were manufacturing something, I would want strict control of qc otherwise you will just end up with folks slagging it off. I also think you need a really good burr set, as Niche did. Not sure but I am guessing Kony burrs bought direct to ensure that they are genuine are £125 plus a set so what is there in the flat burr field for double that, since did I not see the expected cost was about a grand. Burrs are not my forte, but Mythos steel are around £125 (guessing) but the Tin ones substantially dearer. If you have expensive burrs plus an expensive motor you have an expensive grinder....(I might have that bit wrong!). Just for clarity, is this a project where the aim is to perhaps make half a dozen for a bet, or is it with a view to selling them matey


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

A little update, been looking at burrs, specifically cut and material. It is really interesting the effect that the cut Has on particle distribution and how different materials affect the end result in the cup. Many manufacturers have tried to emulate the super sweet extractions from the Ek43 original coffee burrs and I believe there is something in the fact that they are cast burrs.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Interesting project and there certainly seems to be more to it than meets the eye when it comes to burr choices. The profile also affects the motor I guess, based on folks swapping Mazzer burrs between mini-me and SJ and realising it's not just fit and size that counts.

I remember watching with equal interest the DSC (?) grinder development.

What's the intended range of grind? Just espresso-Turkish or out to brewed? What compromises would that cause?

I'm very happy with the E37S (cheers!) but would be tempted by a solid- but- simple sub-1k flat single doser.

I haven't got anything to add that hasn't been said, but here's my wish list. 
- 75-83mm flat 
- low retention
- good alignment 
- grind settings not lost when cleaning
- ease / repeatibility of adjustment 
- industrial looks not plastic
- minimum gadgetry, just a quality switch and smooth adjustment lever/ mech/ knob (?)

___
Eat, drink and be merry.
Rocket R58, Ceado E37S, Aeropress, Aergrind, Torr Goldfinger flat and convex.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

IIRC the original EK coffee burrs didn't have much of a range for espresso but I guess most used the old ones for brewed more?

Wonder what design this grinder will take? Separate motor like the Versalab or the Nautilus, angled burrs like a Mythos or upside down and angled like an LW EG-1 or a mini EK43 style. I'm sure it'll be interesting.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Is this still expected to come in sub £1000?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

This interest me quite a bit...

Imagine this...

A brand new designed flat burr grinder, single dose, prototype.
A Niche Zero...
A Monolith flat... 
A flat burr, hopper fed grinder that folk normally mod/use for single dose...
A few lever machines...
A lever day forum meetup 2021...



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

My first visit to the forum since Covid probably -

This is exciting stuff coffeechap

My short, late, answer is

A Flat Niche -

That means to me -

Not much bigger than a Niche

On/Off switch only (no superfluous electronics),

The largest, most well aligned from the factory burrs that hit the price/motor/form factor constraints.

User alignment if present has to be achievable with whatever is supplied in the box by the vendor (no kits, idiotproof instructions)


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

coffeechap said:


> A little update, been looking at burrs, specifically cut and material. It is really interesting the effect that the cut Has on particle distribution and how different materials affect the end result in the cup. Many manufacturers have tried to emulate the super sweet extractions from the Ek43 original coffee burrs and I believe there is something in the fact that they are cast burrs.


 I believe Frank at Titus has commissioned cast replicas of the original ek43s for use in the Nautilus. Think he's using those as a "filter only" burr set though.

EDIT: Commissioned via SSP


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Rhys said:


> IIRC the original EK coffee burrs didn't have much of a range for espresso but I guess most used the old ones for brewed more?
> 
> Wonder what design this grinder will take? Separate motor like the Versalab or the Nautilus, angled burrs like a Mythos or upside down and angled like an LW EG-1 or a mini EK43 style. I'm sure it'll be interesting.


 We used the old burrs for espresso , wiggle room again was again variable ive seen some graining at way different number than others ( same coffee, same dose ) .

You struggled to use anything less than a 19 to 20 g dose on Ek and were ways near zero.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> We used the old burrs for espresso , wiggle room again was again variable ive seen some graining at way different number than others ( same coffee, same dose ) .
> 
> You struggled to use anything less than a 19 to 20 g dose on Ek and were ways near zero.


 I remember borrowing @fatboyslimEK43 while he wandered away on holiday and really enjoyed the experience when using it, but as you say it was pretty much on the limit with about a half inch of adjustment. there was a bit of felt pen on the 1.3 mark by the looks which if memory serves was the espresso setting.


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## Chainlinephil (Apr 5, 2020)

Power Freak said:


> I believe Frank at Titus has commissioned cast replicas of the original ek43s for use in the Nautilus. Think he's using those as a "filter only" burr set though.
> 
> EDIT: Commissioned via SSP


You may find they are replicas of the original EK cast burr geometry as opposed to being cast. 
I'm not 100% certain but that's my understanding.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## allikat (Jan 27, 2020)

Well, for me, any burr of 55mm or bigger would be good for the price bracket. 64 is an industry choice, and may well be a very economical option.

Low retention is a must for stock, perhaps near zero with a puffer.

Comfortable portafilter holder, which could be coupled to the motor housing for a gentle vibration function to help break up any clumping and spread out the dose?

As it's single dose, it won't need much electronics at all. Perhaps only a shot counter that could help keep count of wear and bring up a notification for burr changes.

Here's another factor no-one has mentioned: Easy cleaning and adjustment that's isolated from the grind path so it won't get gummed up. If you can manage it, the option to open it up to clean with the lowest possible shift to your set grind point would be awesome.

If you can find a way to cut the cost down to a similar level to the Niche, that'd be amazing, but I do understand how hard it is to cut costs and keep a good espresso grind.


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

Chainlinephil said:


> You may find they are replicas of the original EK cast burr geometry as opposed to being cast.
> I'm not 100% certain but that's my understanding.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I believe the latest are cast - they describes them as:

"equipped with SSP cast filter burrs with the 98mm geometry pre 2015."

It's not 100% clear but my understanding is they requested them to be cast.


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## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

How's the end of year report looking on this project, dare I ask?

Merry xmas coffee gang. It has been a weird year, but the coffee you have all in part enabled has been a small pleasure in an odd year.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I have a few years yet to bring it to fruition, may never happen but then it may.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

coffeechap said:


> may never happen but then it may.


 Is this the response for anything in life? 😉

I'm thinking of building a flying saucer. May never happen but then it may. 

Edit: @coffeechap - I'm getting upgraditus with the Niche. You need to tell me more about your grinder. A flat grinder might be what I need! 👍😂 - But we need to know when 🙂


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Is this the response for anything in life? 😉
> 
> I'm thinking of building a flying saucer. May never happen but then it may.
> 
> Edit: @coffeechap - I'm getting upgraditus with the Niche. You need to tell me more about your grinder. A flat grinder might be what I need! 👍😂 - But we need to know when 🙂


 I have heard rumours that another loved manufacturer may have one in the bag.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Is this the response for anything in life? 😉
> 
> I'm thinking of building a flying saucer. May never happen but then it may.


 Flying saucers might be more likely


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> cheers for quoting the reply matey otherwise I would have missed it


 You are too quick with your replies!


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## haventadog (Nov 4, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Is this the response for anything in life? 😉
> 
> I'm thinking of building a flying saucer. May never happen but then it may.
> 
> Edit: @coffeechap - I'm getting upgraditus with the Niche. You need to tell me more about your grinder. A flat grinder might be what I need! 👍😂 - But we need to know when 🙂


 My bad, it's life that has kept this on the back burner - too many children, people dying, and a shower room he still hasn't finished. I am a hard task master.

That said - I would pay good money to have a small grinder that works like an EK43 but doesn't look like a Kenwood Chef.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

That's perfect ask a question but ignore the person who can answer it but luckily got someone to quote it 🤨


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Christ sake...mans trying to design a grinder, at least respect the fact that he's trying to do something and stop posting shite. I'll keep removing the crap so you can at least let @coffeechap develop the thing in a positive environment.

I have tried to remove crappy posts and quotes of said crappy posts.

Coffeechap, good luck with the grinder...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

In all seriousness this has taken a back seat due to many other competing priorities, sometimes life just takes over.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

From reading the forum all you need is a set of burrs and a black and decker. 🙄

I think what id like to see is something affordable.

When you look at the top end grinders 2k plus is beyond many


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Christ sake...mans trying to design a grinder, at least respect the fact that he's trying to do something and stop posting shite. I'll keep removing the crap so you can at least let @coffeechap develop the thing in a positive environment.
> 
> I have tried to remove crappy posts and quotes of said crappy posts.
> 
> Coffeechap, good luck with the grinder...


 Thanks for your support, it is a thankless task trying to develop anything, I have a framework that seems to work but it's getting the refinements done that takes the time, plus a lot of trial and error.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> In all seriousness this has taken a back seat due to many other competing priorities, sometimes life just takes over.


 Well I did imagine it could Take Years, martin was 4 years developing the Niche.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> From reading the forum all you need is a set of burrs and a black and decker. 🙄
> 
> I think what id like to see is something affordable.
> 
> When you look at the top end grinders 2k plus is beyond many


 Completely agree, it is crazy what some grinders cost to buy, but then it is crazy what some machines cost to buy. My ambition when I started looking into this project was to get something in the £750 price band, which in its self is not a small amount of money.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I really would like to see this through, honestly, whenever it happens. I admire people who put their brains and efforts on something they are really passionate about, and I think it's fair to say here @coffeechap is one of them.

If I remember correctly there was another member here who designed his own grinder, ZR-71 or something like that? Not sure what happened to that.

Anyway Dave, good luck with the project. I'll be watching this thread for some time it seems, and will be really pleased when it comes to fruition.


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## Andy Brown (Feb 11, 2021)

Good luck @coffeechap, plenty of food for thought on this thread!

Hope all goes well and looking forward to see how you get on


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

I'm not knowledgable enough to offer any help - 'as good as possible for as cheap as possible' doesn't really help! - but admire that you're taking on a daunting task like this. I single dose and choices seem incredibly limited. Good luck with the project, I hope you get input from those that know what they are talking about.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

CocoLoco said:


> I'm not knowledgable enough to offer any help


 Story of my life. I've been trying to roast coffee beans with a bread maker and heat gun. First attempt... Fail. Second attempt: Not too bad. Third attempt: Fail, melted the lid of the bread maker. 4th Attempt: fail. 5th attempt: Let's see...

So yeah, I do admire people who can actually get thinks working as a project for sure!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've had an interest in making a grinder at home right from when I started brewing espresso. Why - well I could  as simple as that. So I started looking at grinders even have some pimpable ones that I am unlikely to ever use other than initially. They are functionally ok.

There are hurdles in all sorts of directions. One thing crops up pretty quickly. Conical burrs make the task easier as they can be run at any speed. Flats needs certain speeds. Big flats could be run slower but the speeds used vary. They need a powerful motor. Suitable powers in industrial motors which are easy to get would result in a very large and heavy grinder. So who makes grinder motors. Most seem to come from an Italian company. They tend to be slim and long and have run time limits and may still need fans. What will they cost and etc. Ceado motors seem to differ to some others and it would appear that the grind chamber is part of the motor end plates. Best option is likely to be certain universal motors if a suitable one crops up or servo motors or even maybe something out of say a treadmill etc. The treadmill type motors usually use a simple speed regulator  Ok but if overloaded are very likely to burn out. There are solutions to that. Mechanical trips or electronics. Some may have the mechanical trip built in.

Will I wont I. Depends so don't know but suspect it would be to aim at an improvement over Niche but given a suitable motor flat is not impossible.


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