# Conical Grinders: Single dosing and the use of weight on top of beans



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

*Please note: This thread started as a discussion of the merits of single dosing and the use of weights on top of beans in a sales thread for a Eureka grinder. As such it begins in a somewhat disjointed fashion. - risky*

a small hopper is the last thing this baby (Eureka Olympus K) needs for goodness sake. It needs beans, lots of beans and a good weight pressing down to maximise grinding. Why buy a land rover and take the gearbox out to convert to two wheel drive?


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> a small hopper is the last thing this baby needs for goodness sake. It needs beans, lots of beans and a good weight pressing down to maximise grinding. Why buy a land rover and take the gearbox out to convert to two wheel drive?


Given that bb sell the 75E (which appears to be of a reasonably similar spec) with a short hopper, I would assume that this one would work fine with a smaller hopper. I have limited clearance, and don't like to leave a ton of beans exposed to the air constantly (and don't go through 'lots of beans' in a single day), so I don't see a need for a massive hopper. The analogy makes no sense to me - people here are frequently using large grinders in a domestic setting, despite the fact that they can be used at a much larger scale (and p.s., most people driving a land rover have no need for 4wd, but still are enjoying the ride nonetheless)


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

It's becoming more apparent that grind quality suffers if there isn't sufficient weight of beans in the hopper. A tiny hopper might not give you quite enough to get the best out the grinder.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

evoman said:


> Given that bb sell the 75E (which appears to be of a reasonably similar spec) with a short hopper, I would assume that this one would work fine with a smaller hopper. I have limited clearance, and don't like to leave a ton of beans exposed to the air constantly (and don't go through 'lots of beans' in a single day), so I don't see a need for a massive hopper. The analogy makes no sense to me - people here are frequently using large grinders in a domestic setting, despite the fact that they can be used at a much larger scale (and p.s., most people driving a land rover have no need for 4wd, but still are enjoying the ride nonetheless)


Is this grinder flat or conical...hint!


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> Is this grinder flat or conical...hint!


Not sure why simple questions evoke hostility around here (and why you don't just make some sort of intelligent point rather than being belligerent)

I don't see how the flat v conical is supposed to be a defining feature given the distribution of burr types across the range of grinders. My current grinder has conical burrs, as does the one for sale here, but obviously many of the popular ones have flat burrs. When I have read about the two types I don't see any consensus. Perhaps the two have different requirements that are relevant to the issue of the hopper - if so, wouldn't it be easier to just say so?

I take the point made by jeebsy that the weight of beans can be important, but then what is the optimal solution for someone that is basically grinding for individual use? I grind 2-5 shots a day, so I don't want half a kilo of beans sitting in the hopper. I usually try to add just enough beans to the hopper to cover what I am using at that moment.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

evoman said:


> Not sure why simple questions evoke hostility around here (and why you don't just make some sort of intelligent point rather than being belligerent)
> 
> I don't see how the flat v conical is supposed to be a defining feature given the distribution of burr types across the range of grinders. My current grinder has conical burrs, as does the one for sale here, but obviously many of the popular ones have flat burrs. When I have read about the two types I don't see any consensus. Perhaps the two have different requirements that are relevant to the issue of the hopper - if so, wouldn't it be easier to just say so?
> 
> I take the point made by jeebsy that the weight of beans can be important, but then what is the optimal solution for someone that is basically grinding for individual use? I grind 2-5 shots a day, so I don't want half a kilo of beans sitting in the hopper. I usually try to add just enough beans to the hopper to cover what I am using at that moment.


http://Http://londiniumespresso.com/blog/single-dosing-forget-it

Keeping 500g topped up in the hopper would be alright


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

You could run it with less in,( 250 g ) just accept you may need to go a bit finer in the grind and it may not be as consistent as with 500 g plus in...or as the hopper runs down


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

evoman, not sure where the hostility comes from mate, but never mind. In case you read this, there has been a lot of discussion about conical v flat and their foibles. A conical needs a weight of beans pushing it into the grind path. If you do not have a weight, then the grind consistency and the time to grind becomes really variable. To demonstrate, try single dosing and watch your beans popcorn, check the grind uniformity and the time it takes. Conical burrs by design have a longer path to reach the exit chute. Flat burrs do not suffer from the same problems, although single dosing becomes a technique on its own. presumably you buy a grinder to get the most from it. These grinders come with large hoppers, and that is not so lazy cafe owners can fill them once day! It is to help maximise the shot.

Perhaps if you come back to the table with questions or observations by starting a new thread, we grumpies can help you enter a world I suspect you did not know existed!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> You could run it with less in,( 250 g ) just accept you may need to go a bit finer in the grind and it may not be as consistent as with 500 g plus in...or as the hopper runs down


I ran mine with about 300 gms in. I place a barbell weight wrapped in clingfilm and when that starts to tough the sides, I put a Balti stainless steel bown in which gets right down to the throat with the weight on top. The difference is staggering. The delivery into the pf is markedly improved, as is the taste


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Those beans look a bit dar..

Okay I'll stop now.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Ahh the olympus thread..

DFK, can you really notice that much difference with weight on V no weight in the short hopper on the E10?


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

I think that Cc has offered up a proven solution in the past, and one that works well for me:

replace big hopper with glass tube with approx. 100-150g bean capacity (thus no issue with going stale)

Add a 1kg cylindrical weight to the top of the tube (thus providing a fairly constant pressure regardless of bean quantity)

Only real pilot error possible is not keeping beans topped up above the point that the grinder throat starts to narrow.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Ahh the olympus thread..
> 
> DFK, can you really notice that much difference with weight on V no weight in the short hopper on the E10?


Yes.........a noticeable and I mean noticeable difference. Much tidier distribution into the pf and a marked difference in taste


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

NickdeBug said:


> I think that Cc has offered up a proven solution in the past, and one that works well for me:
> 
> replace big hopper with glass tube with approx. 100-150g bean capacity (thus no issue with going stale)
> 
> ...


Similar to my solution, small metal tube that holds about 20g, so I fill with 18G, weight on top that slides down the tube on top of the beans. In my experience there is a very noticeable change in the shots when this is done compared to single dosing with no weight, needed to back off about half an inch on the mazzer collar if I remember rightly.

Disclaimer: this is an observation based on the time it took for a shot to come through and is in no way a scientific study of particle size.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Yes.........


Same bean, same dose, same day?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Same bean, same dose, same day?


The only way......


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> a small hopper is the last thing this baby needs for goodness sake. It needs beans, lots of beans and a good weight pressing down to maximise grinding. Why buy a land rover and take the gearbox out to convert to two wheel drive?


I see this has been split off, so could this or the title mention the actual grinder in question somewhere early on? (Haven't finished reading the thread yet, but looks like fun). Post reading edit: Hmm tails off after a fractious start


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

It is relevant to anyone with a conical grinder


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I'm currently using a 3 ton hydraulic ram to keep enough weight on my beans


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> I'm currently using a 3 ton hydraulic ram to keep enough weight on my beans


Not a hydraulic goat?


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

I've changed the thread title to better reflect the relevance of the thread, taken the liberty of inserting a short explanatory note into the first post and tidied it up a bit.

Anyway, back on track...has anyone done what I presume you would call 'particle analysis' with and without weights?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Has anyone got a glass tube wide enough to fit this in please?

Reckon it would weigh the beans down perfectly!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Not a hydraulic goat?


jeebsy, dave is pretty accurate normally. I reckon if he said ram he meant ram and not goat, though quite how he gets it to dangle one of its testicles into the grinder for quite so ,on is beyond me


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

risky said:


> I've changed the thread title to better reflect the relevance of the thread, taken the liberty of inserting a short explanatory note into the first post and tidied it up a bit.
> 
> Anyway, back on track...has anyone done what I presume you would call 'particle analysis' with and without weights?


How many mods does it take to split a post......

err 2!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

risky said:


> I've changed the thread title to better reflect the relevance of the thread, taken the liberty of inserting a short explanatory note into the first post and tidied it up a bit.
> 
> Anyway, back on track...has anyone done what I presume you would call 'particle analysis' with and without weights?


 @NickdeBug (not nickdegoat) has access to one of the fancy machines that can do it. We did some much less scientific comparisons at the forum day though


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> We did some much less scientific comparisons at the forum day though


which were very significant! I really wish folk could just get their heads around one thing, once the weight of beans drops below around 250g the grind quality changes significantly (for the worse) as does the accuracy of the timer functions on OD grinders, both conic and flat. As Nick has said the simple but VERY effective solution is a short tube that fits in the throat of your grinder, that will accommodate around 100 grams of beans, then a fitted weight of at least 500 grams that fits inside the tube, thus making sure there is constant weight which equals consistent grind quality.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

I've noticed the difference in grind quality when using the last of the beans each day for the past two days on my Mythos (yes I know it has flat burrs and this thread was started mainly regarding conical grinders...get over it!).

Same bean, same grind setting, same tamp pressure (as best I can tell anyway) and shot time was significantly shorter than previous shots when there were more beans in the cardboard roll I'm currently using as a hopper. I usually add sufficient beans for the amount of coffees I'm planning to make during any one session, which can vary between 45 to 90 grams. A lot less than the 250 or 500g being mentioned without using an additional weight on top. So I can well imagine the difference the added weight could make.

Just a shame I decided to change grinders after ordering a glass tube hopper for my previous grinder!


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## doolallysquiff (Jul 26, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> which were very significant! I really wish folk could just get their heads around one thing, once the weight of beans drops below around 250g the grind quality changes significantly (for the worse) as does the accuracy of the timer functions on OD grinders, both conic and flat. As Nick has said the simple but VERY effective solution is a short tube that fits in the throat of your grinder, that will accommodate around 100 grams of beans, then a fitted weight of at least 500 grams that fits inside the tube, thus making sure there is constant weight which equals consistent grind quality.


Agreed. So where could one purchase said short tube from?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

doolallysquiff said:


> Agreed. So where could one purchase said short tube from?


Nickbebug did a group buy recently.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I believe polycarbonate ones are available in different circumferences and lengths on ebay


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

mythos 1 negates this issue with the hopper design


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I found the mythos in general did not need a lot of weight due to the long drop into the burrs and the 45 degree motor mount


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## doolallysquiff (Jul 26, 2014)

garydyke1 said:


> mythos 1 negates this issue with the hopper design


Oh balls, the missus is not going to like that response. It's already yours and Cha... erm I mean your fault that I've got a Sage DB. Now you're saying I NEED a Mtythos one! Nick, where did you get a glass thingy from?


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

@doolallysquiff

Here's the (now closed) group buy thread with all of the details:

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22228-Group-buy-Borosilicate-Glass-tube-Hopper


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

garydyke1 said:


> mythos 1 negates this issue with the hopper design


Shame mine has the '1' missing off the end!


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## doolallysquiff (Jul 26, 2014)

DoubleShot said:


> @doolallysquiff
> 
> Here's the (now closed) group buy thread with all of the details:
> 
> http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22228-Group-buy-Borosilicate-Glass-tube-Hopper


Did anyone get one for a zenith 65e? If so, what size is it?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> mythos 1 negates this issue with the hopper design


"you can get down to your last 50 grams and not really notice"



DoubleShot said:


> Shame mine has the '1' missing off the end!


Think the hopper and chute design is largely similar


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

doolallysquiff said:


> Did anyone get one for a zenith 65e? If so, what size is it?


Somebody here could correct me but I think you can just measure the bottom of the hopper depending on how the hopper fits. I'm pretty sure on the 65E you could do that.

If you're considering getting the customised glass one let me know, I might be interested in getting one for the E8. Sounded, from the linked to group buy, like having a few people helped and ideally 3 of the same size (I haven't yet checked E8 size).


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

Okay, I recovered from being irritated by the original discussion (works better here as a separate thread) - I find this a bit depressing - I don't really want to keep loads of beans sitting in the hopper and i would prefer to not go down the tube mod route if I can avoid it. Is this less of a problem with a flat burr design compared to conical? Some grinders, like the HG One, seem specifically designed for single dosing - so do they solve this problem or do they simply suffer from a lack of pressure on the beans?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

evoman said:


> Okay, I recovered from being irritated by the original discussion (works better here as a separate thread) - I find this a bit depressing - I don't really want to keep loads of beans sitting in the hopper and i would prefer to not go down the tube mod route if I can avoid it. Is this less of a problem with a flat burr design compared to conical? Some grinders, like the HG One, seem specifically designed for single dosing - so do they solve this problem or do they simply suffer from a lack of pressure on the beans?


From what I've heard flat burrs suffer less with it, but I recently purchased the E8 from coffeechap that's got flat burrs and it still doesn't work as well without some weight of beans on it, IMO.

The HG One looks like an exception, but I've only seen one in flesh and it ground 2 shots worth of beans. From what I recall though, it's intended to put in the beans that you want to get back out.

I'm genuinely interested, it isn't a trap and I won't jump down your throat, what is it about the tube mod route that you want to avoid? If you don't want loads of beans in a hopper then the tube is essentially like a very small hopper, helping you to achieve that goal and if you want to keep a hopper on your grinder then put beans in it, that's literally it's raison d'etre?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

What is your end goal evoman? If it is the perfect espresso, then you have to find a work around when using a grinder designed for commercial use in the home. On a big conical, it is easy. Put your beans , say a couple of hundred grammes into the copper and find a weight that is capable of applying at least 1 kilo of weight onto them. Top up as necessary....it really is easy. otherwise, you will do your head in mate! The HG is designed for single dosing but still pop corns and everyone says they do not handle lighter roasts very well as they are more brittle and pop corn all over. Or, you can buy a Ceado conical and go through a ridiculous routine everytime you pull a shot, or you can just put up with it!


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

jlarkin said:


> I'm genuinely interested, it isn't a trap and I won't jump down your throat, what is it about the tube mod route that you want to avoid? If you don't want loads of beans in a hopper then the tube is essentially like a very small hopper, helping you to achieve that goal and if you want to keep a hopper on your grinder then put beans in it, that's literally it's raison d'etre?


Thanks for the info - the issue is really time and effort - I am just not sure I can add the hopper mod to my workload given I am already unable to keep up! I suppose I would go that route if it was relatively easy or I could find a retail option, but I am just not sure I will manage to sort it out on my own given that it takes some effort to find a workable solution. So it's simply about being realistic with what I am likely to manage to accomplish!


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> What is your end goal evoman? If it is the perfect espresso, then you have to find a work around when using a grinder designed for commercial use in the home. On a big conical, it is easy. Put your beans , say a couple of hundred grammes into the copper and find a weight that is capable of applying at least 1 kilo of weight onto them. Top up as necessary....it really is easy. otherwise, you will do your head in mate! The HG is designed for single dosing but still pop corns and everyone says they do not handle lighter roasts very well as they are more brittle and pop corn all over. Or, you can buy a Ceado conical and go through a ridiculous routine everytime you pull a shot, or you can just put up with it!


Thanks for the comments - my goal is to have a routine that I can pull off in my office and produce a reasonably nice espresso (and steamed milk) without driving my neighbours nuts (very thin walls between offices). So I need to manage mess and water without a sink nearby, and I am hoping to find something relatively quiet. My current setup does a nice job of providing me with decent drinks (Brewtus plus Sage grinder), but it is noisier than I would like. The grinder is not perfect, but for a small grinder it does a decent job (albeit, while making a bit more noise than I would like). The espresso machine is lovely, but the vibe pump is really too noisy.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Right, it is coming back now! If you bought a Sage Dual Boiler from Lakeland, you will have a small lightweight machine that delivers really well and is packed with loads of features found on much dearer machine. Others can comment on the noise but I do not remember them as being bad. I say lakeland, because of their guarantee which is return it whenever you want for an immediate refund, in or out of warranty.

I have taken the piss out of the machines many times but in truth, they seem quite good. And, you can turn it on from cold, make your coffee, run a cleaning cycle and switch it off in 10 minutes


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

Having the beans in the hopper is one issue, but what about purging? I remember someone around here saying that you need to purge around 20-30 grams worth of beans to get rid of coffee that ended in the chute or between the burrs.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

bronc said:


> Having the beans in the hopper is one issue, but what about purging? I remember someone around here saying that you need to purge around 20-30 grams worth of beans to get rid of coffee that ended in the chute or between the burrs.


Yes, correct, but,if you want big boys toys........


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> Right, it is coming back now! If you bought a Sage Dual Boiler from Lakeland, you will have a small lightweight machine that delivers really well and is packed with loads of features found on much dearer machine. Others can comment on the noise but I do not remember them as being bad. I say lakeland, because of their guarantee which is return it whenever you want for an immediate refund, in or out of warranty.
> 
> I have taken the piss out of the machines many times but in truth, they seem quite good. And, you can turn it on from cold, make your coffee, run a cleaning cycle and switch it off in 10 minutes


I don't have a Sage Dual Boiler - I have a Expobar Dual Boiler (Brewtus) - the Sage is the grinder (I have the newer model that has the shims, so does a nice fine grind without any issues). I'm looking to possibly replace both, so I have been exploring options - cheers.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

evoman said:


> I don't have a Sage Dual Boiler - I have a Expobar Dual Boiler (Brewtus) - the Sage is the grinder (I have the newer model that has the shims, so does a nice fine grind without any issues). I'm looking to possibly replace both, so I have been exploring options - cheers.


I am suggesting the Sage Dual Boiler as a replacement for your Exposer. The only real way of getting silence, would be a line fed lever which is out of the question, or hooking up rotary pump machine to a 5 litre water container and your coffee will be better as a result. If you rang BB and explained your needs they will tell you if they can supply anything to suit,


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

@dfk41

You really need to teach your device (smartphone/laptop) that it's Expobar not Exposer!


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> I am suggesting the Sage Dual Boiler as a replacement for your Exposer. The only real way of getting silence, would be a line fed lever which is out of the question, or hooking up rotary pump machine to a 5 litre water container and your coffee will be better as a result. If you rang BB and explained your needs they will tell you if they can supply anything to suit,


Ah, right - sorry to be thick. I wouldn't have guessed that the Sage DB would be any quieter than the Brewtus. I assume the lever machine only uses the pump when it needs to refill from the tank, so would save the long run of the pump while pulling a shot.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Or, you can buy a Ceado conical and go through a ridiculous routine everytime you pull a shot, or you can just put up with it!


Dave, the routine is not ridiculous, it's easy and faster than many other grinders I've single dosed. I simply bung a scoop full of beans in and less than 20s later I'm pulling the shot.....really not hard at all.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Dave, the routine is not ridiculous, it's easy and faster than many other grinders I've single dosed. I simply bug a scoop full of beans in and less than 20s later I'm pulling the shot.....really not hard at all.


Substantially longer than it takes me though!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

evoman said:


> Ah, right - sorry to be thick. I wouldn't have guessed that the Sage DB would be any quieter than the Brewtus. I assume the lever machine only uses the pump when it needs to refill from the tank, so would save the long run of the pump while pulling a shot.


Correct again, and the vibe pump on the Veloce lever is far quite than your average as well


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> Correct again, and the vibe pump on the Veloce lever is far quite than your average as well


So here is a bit of a random question - does that warning sticker come off from the front of the Veloce? Looks hideous with that big warning sticker on the front. Looks like an interesting option - had been thinking L1 (and at the moment I am reading the thread comparing the two mdoels). Just not sure whether a lever is the right move for me...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

evoman said:


> So here is a bit of a random question - does that warning sticker come off from the front of the Veloce? Looks hideous with that big warning sticker on the front. Looks like an interesting option - had been thinking L1 (and at the moment I am reading the thread comparing the two mdoels). Just not sure whether a lever is the right move for me...


am not sure which sticker you refer to but mine has none...just looked on the BB site and yes, the warning stick r on the front peels off.

The purists and I used to be one, will tell you the L1 is superior.....the unpure of which I am also one, will answer that with bollocks....!


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

evoman said:


> So here is a bit of a random question - does that warning sticker come off from the front of the Veloce? Looks hideous with that big warning sticker on the front. Looks like an interesting option - had been thinking L1 (and at the moment I am reading the thread comparing the two mdoels). Just not sure whether a lever is the right move for me...


have a look at the "who owns a lever" thread and see if there is anyone close to you that owns the L1 or other. They seem a friendly bunch and always seem happy to demo their kit.


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