# ACS Minima



## Vollbart

Apologies if I've missed something obvious here but I tried searching the forums and can't find it referenced.

I've currently been looking for a machine around £1000, lurking on this site and absorbing information.

I've come across a lot of references to the ACS Minima being released sometime soon. I just had a Google and found it listed as in stock on the coffee Italia site, but I've not seen any mention on here that it's on general sale yet. Is this legit?


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## DavecUK

Vollbart said:


> Apologies if I've missed something obvious here but I tried searching the forums and can't find it referenced.
> 
> I've currently been looking for a machine around £1000, lurking on this site and absorbing information.
> 
> I've come across a lot of references to the ACS Minima being released sometime soon. I just had a Google and found it listed as in stock on the coffee Italia site, but I've not seen any mention on here that it's on general sale yet. Is this legit?


Yes, I will be getting s final production unit this week I think for testing.


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## ashcroc

Vollbart said:


> Apologies if I've missed something obvious here but I tried searching the forums and can't find it referenced.
> 
> I've currently been looking for a machine around £1000, lurking on this site and absorbing information.
> 
> I've come across a lot of references to the ACS Minima being released sometime soon. I just had a Google and found it listed as in stock on the coffee Italia site, but I've not seen any mention on here that it's on general sale yet. Is this legit?


Box shifters who list as in stock without holding any.

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## Greenpotterer

DavecUK said:


> Yes, I will be getting s final production unit this week I think for testing.


I hope so Dave. I'm still biding my time until I can see one in the flesh. Any news on BB stocking it?


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## Fez

I too am waiting for them to be released


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## Pliers

I'm looking to acquire a Minima and also hoping Bella Barista will chose to stock it soon.


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## Vollbart

On the beta machine thread Fez says he has had an email from them stating they won't be stocking it. Would be interesting to know why as there appears to be some demand.


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## Fez

Vollbart said:


> On the beta machine thread Fez says he has had an email from them stating they won't be stocking it. Would be interesting to know why as there appears to be some demand.


Correct, had an email from Claudette stating that they won't be stocking it.


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## DavecUK

Vollbart said:


> On the beta machine thread Fez says he has had an email from them stating they won't be stocking it. Would be interesting to know why as there appears to be some demand.


You should ask them why


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## Vollbart

Still deliberating on what to buy but yes that might be a useful datapoint


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## Pliers

Can any one recommended any other reliable retailers who will be stocking the Minima. Shame that BB won't be stocking, I had hoped to buy from them as the dealings I have had with them and the advice given so far have been excellent. One thing I have gleaned from reading posts is that customer service and backup is some what variable amongst retailers and that BB have an excellent reputation.

Being a complete novice and buying my first proper machine the reviews of the Lelit and Minima where very influential in coming up with my short list.

It would be interesting to know if it was a commercial decision or concerns with the Minima machine itself which prompted the decision by BB.


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## Rob1

Have you emailed BB to ask them? Speculation is pointless...They may have been put off by the unconventional (but brilliant in use) shape of the design, thinking maybe customers wouldn't go for it...they may be hoping the pound improves against the euro and are trying not to buy now...who knows.


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## Pliers

I note from your reply some interestng points particularyly in regard to the asthetics of the machine vs the practicality. I agree it is an unusual design compared to other machines and for me looks are not important but good to see its brilliant in use.

Without trying to risk speculating again if as I suspect will be the case and BB reply they have no intention of stocking the machine I will probably take the safer route and purchase the Lelit Mara and use the money saved to buy a better grinder.

Also I think if I wait for the pound to improve I may be waiting along time!


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## Vollbart

I'm in exactly the same position as you, deciding between the same two machines.

Trying to put together a comprehensive pros list of each machine, but from what I understand the Minima is pretty much better technically in most ways. Leaving the decision on the Mara coming down to how much I value:

It's a fair bit cheaper (and is probably good enough for my needs)

It's slightly smaller

I gather it's probably easier to maintain? Less parts, easier to descale? (I could be talking out of my behind, it's just the impression of what I've read about hx and db)


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## Rob1

I don't know anything about the Mara but HX machines tend to be harder to use. With the Minima you just walk up to it and pull a shot, no flushing required. You'll probably want to get a group head thermometer for the Mara.

Regarding maintenance the most common thing you'll be doing is backflushing which requires disassembly and lubrication of the cam lever for the Mara, whereas the Minima doesn't require any kind of work after the backflush.

Descaling shouldn't be an issue assuming you're using a bottle water like Volvic or remineralising DI or RO water with bicarbonates, something you should consider with your expensive machine regardless of what you choose. Ease of descaling is largely dependent on how accessible the boilers are in a DB and with the Minima you just remove the cup warmer which is secured by 4 hex bolts and then remove a fixture on top of the brew boiler to syphon water in and out; the service boiler is easy to descale and just requires draining and refilling through the water tap though you could also syphon water in and out of that too if you want.

As far as other issues are concerned i.e. replacing parts, I imagine the Minima will be a bit of a pain to work on as it's very compact. It shouldn't be too much of a challenge, I guess it depends on how good you are with things like that. As I said I a have no idea what a Mara is like and how the internals are with that, it could be much the same story due to its size.


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## L&R

Rob1 said:


> I don't know
> 
> Regarding maintenance the most common thing you'll be doing is backflushing which requires disassembly and lubrication of the cam lever for the Mara, whereas the Minima doesn't require any kind of work after the backflush.


I am not sure if Solenoid E61 is better and more reliable than Classic E61 with a cam and levers.


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## Rob1

Why's that?


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## MediumRoastSteam

L&R said:


> I am not sure if Solenoid E61 is better and more reliable than Classic E61 with a cam and levers.


I think that, from a maintenance point of view, it's unquestionable. As of reliability... when the solenoid valve goes, replace it (if it goes). No difference from having to replace the cam and pins of a traditional e61.

One of the gripes I had with a traditional e61 machine was the level of maintenance required. Not complicated, but one of those things that I'd rather go without.

Ps: Rob1's post is about maintenance and not reliability.


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## DavecUK

For certain types of machines a solenoid operated E61 makes more sense.....In the case of the Minima it does and @Rob1 is absolutely right about the maintenance advantages. It's also a straight easy solenoid replacement 4 Allen bolts and a few minutes. E61 lever group parts need ideally to be OEM to fit right and even then the group manufacturers do make small changes over time. The other big advantage is it's a little cleaner with the differences in the chambers within the group. The Vesuvius would benefit from a solenoid group, I've been suggesting this right from the outset to ACS.

Also please remember the Minima is a *dual boiler*, one that works very well with a large service boiler and steaming that is better than most machines.


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## Vollbart

That's something I wasn't factoring in, thank you for pointing it out. Another advantage of the Minima then.

A couple more points if anyone can entertain them vetting them.

There will undoubtedly days where I only end up using the machine once or twice in the morning. DavecUK has pointed out in the Osmio Zero thread the topic of water quality if it's sitting in the boiler for an extended length of time. The Minima has two boilers 2.3l (steam) and 800ml vs the Mara with 1.5l steam boiler. I assume this means if I want to steam milk I'll be filing the Minima boilers less often with more water, meaning it is likely to be staler (or wasted if I drain it) when I'm infrequently using it (not sure the amount of water that a 2.3l steam boiler requires to operate, I assume the 2.3l includes the headspace for the steam). Alternatively though if I'm only making an espresso in the mornings most of the Mara steam water will be stale as it won't get used (apart from flushing), whereas I can turn off the Minima steam boiler.

Similarly, the Mara is 1400w (steam boiler) vs the Minima 1400w (steam boiler) and 1000w (brew boiler). If I want to steam milk for only one or two coffees I assume the Mara would be more economical as it has smaller boiler and would be consuming 1000w less? Alternatively if I'm only running it in the morning for a pre work espresso with the steam boiler off the Minima will be consuming 400w less than the Mara (and will be heating the water to a lower temperature).

So in a nutshell, the Minima has the flexibility of being more economical if I know I'm only making espresso. But when I want steam, or if I want the convenience of leaving the steam boiler on the Mara will be more economical (on both water wastage and power).

We're a small household so I imagine its going to be pretty rare that I need the larger capacity of the Minima steam boiler, so in some respects it's probably over specified for what we need. I just need to weigh up your maintenance points, ease of use and all the other technical advantages of the Minima, against the reduced cost (upfront and over time) of the Mara.

Thanks


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## Rob1

Vollbart said:


> A couple more points if anyone can entertain them vetting them.
> 
> There will undoubtedly days where I only end up using the machine once or twice in the morning. DavecUK has pointed out in the Osmio Zero thread the topic of water quality if it's sitting in the boiler for an extended length of time. The Minima has two boilers 2.3l (steam) and 800ml vs the Mara with 1.5l steam boiler. I assume this means if I want to steam milk I'll be filing the Minima boilers less often with more water, meaning it is likely to be staler (or wasted if I drain it) when I'm infrequently using it (not sure the amount of water that a 2.3l steam boiler requires to operate, I assume the 2.3l includes the headspace for the steam). Alternatively though if I'm only making an espresso in the mornings most of the Mara steam water will be stale as it won't get used (apart from flushing), whereas I can turn off the Minima steam boiler.


I just skimmed through the entire thread and couldn't find what you're referring to...

A friend of mine works as an engineer for a water company and is obsessed with cleanliness and freshness of water. He once refused a glass of water that had been poured from water sitting in a jug because he thought it would be stale as it had been in the jug for more than 20 minutes! He said it would absorb carbon dioxide from the air becoming more acidic and bacteria would start to grow after 20 minutes. I regularly drink water that has been sitting out for several hours without really tasting much of a difference (and certainly not experiencing any negative health effects). When he had a little look at my espresso machine he physically recoiled when he saw the water tank sitting there in the warmth in an open container and berated me for not filling the tank with fresh water every time I made a coffee, keeping it empty when not in use....until I told him the machine heats the water to over 100c for several hours. Then he calmed down and had a coffee.

Say you've got a 700ml brew boiler. You use maybe 100ml for a shot and another 100ml to clean the group. The boiler is continuously topped up through this so you never have completely fresh water in the boiler. I've had a machine in use for several months before I syphoned off water, rinsed the boiler with fresh water and refilled with fresh remineralised DI water and there was no difference in taste from water pulled straight from the group or from the espresso produced. If my machine had been sitting there unused for several days I'd want to change the water though, but more because of the thought of absorbed copper than bacteria. Having said that the Minima has steel boilers and I'd still want to change the water. Its probably not something entirely rational...

*The boilers will use a similar amount of water* as you are replacing the water lost during steaming which will be dependent on the volume of milk you steam not the size of the boiler.

*If you only make espresso in the morning none of the water in the Mara boiler will be used*. The water to the group comes straight from the tank through the HX (and advantage regarding cleanliness and freshness if you change the water in your tank often). The only way to drain water from the boiler of a HX is through the hot water tap which you will want to do to prevent minerals like chlorides and sulphates from building up (from Calcium and Magnesium) and Sodium chloride + anything else that's in the water you're using as this is all left behind when the water is used for steaming.

As for your other concerns the Minima is more economical for producing espresso. The Mara is more economical for producing milk drinks. You shouldn't leave the steam boiler on with the Minima, and you don't have a choice with the Mara. If you want to calculate how much money you're saving over 10 years of use assuming you always make a milk drink and make a decision based on that it's up to you. Bear in mind you need a group thermometer and batteries for a HX....if you want to calculate running costs.


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## DavecUK

Vollbart said:


> A couple more points if anyone can entertain them vetting them.


Err all the above....No none of it correct really, totally overthinking it and misunderstanding the physics/chemistry.. Power consumption is likely to be far higher on the Lelit and you never use an espresso machine as a kettle if you can help it. Sure if you are super space chanllenged or your kettle breaks perhaps, but otherwise no. You need to concern yourself with te differences between dual boiler and HX and which it is you want. Trust me if anything above you had said was relevant or correct, it would be in my reviews.

About the only thing above you had right is



> I assume the 2.3l includes the headspace for the steam


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## Vollbart

I was just referring to this post, which I've perhaps read something into that wasn't there, that although boiler water would be sterile it might get stale. https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?48289-Reverse-Osmosis-Osmio-Zero-review&p=657958#post657958

Following this, and as you've pointed out it was flawed thinking, I was envisioning having to drain the boilers regularly if I wasnt using it much to keep the water fresh. If the boiler was larger this would result in me draining more water. I appreciate that the water is mixing and working it's way through, and that none of the Mara boiler water would be used if I was only making espresso. I tried to encorporate that into my post but I guess I didn't do very well, thanks for your points.


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## Vollbart

DavecUK said:


> Err all the above....


Thanks for your response. I guess I was confusing the scenario where the machine comes on for a brief period, where it is acting like a kettle, with the energy efficiency of when it's left on, which is very different to the kettle because it's only keeping the heat topped up which is helped by the insulation.


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## Dylan

I'm not sure if this is what you were saying, but leaving an espresso machine on is not energy efficient. It will always take less energy to turn your espresso machine on before you use it and then off afterwards. Boiler size will have an effect on this of course, the smaller the boiler the less mass of water to heat so the less electricity used.

It is of course much more convenient to leave it on ready to make a drink, and most of us do so for the 40-50p or so it costs to have it on during the hours we may use it.

I think you already got this from the above replies, but you don't need to worry about water going bad inside a sealed boiler that is constantly sterilising it's contents. The only time anyone ever drains their machine is for transport, storage or in some cases descaling.


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## Hindsight

If folk are interested I see Bella Barista are now showing the Minima as available to pre-order.


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## hutchys

Is this machine one of the best bang for buck available at the present time? If not the best what is please.


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## ncrc51

I have a US spec Minima beta. I love it. It has performed flawlessly. It was a lot of bang for the buck as a beta machine, and still looks like a lot of bang for the buck in production. I don't know if it's one of the best in that category, but I'm sure happy with mine.


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## DavecUK

hutchys said:


> Is this machine one of the best bang for buck available at the present time? If not the best what is please.


Probably


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## hutchys

DavecUK said:


> Probably


Thanks for the reply Dave. So with me being a newbie to espresso machines will this machine be one that will see me through a steep learning curve and beyond and without the need to update for a few years or more?


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## MediumRoastSteam

hutchys said:


> Thanks for the reply Dave. So with me being a newbie to espresso machines will this machine be one that will see me through a steep learning curve and beyond and without the need to update for a few years or more?


It's a very good value for money, no frills E61 machine designed with a lot of input by DavecUK. I don't think I need to say any more.

Will it be with you for a few years? Possibly. It depends. It might not be what you want. You might want to know what a machine with a rotary pump is like. You might want to know what a lever machine is like. It's up to you, and it's a journey. The machine will last for sure, some components will need replacing. If you take good care of it, it will last a long, long time.

Did I mention grinders?


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## DavecUK

hutchys said:


> Thanks for the reply Dave. So with me being a newbie to espresso machines will this machine be one that will see me through a steep learning curve and beyond and without the need to update for a few years or more?


I would think so yes.


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## Mrboots2u

hutchys said:


> Thanks for the reply Dave. So with me being a newbie to espresso machines will this machine be one that will see me through a steep learning curve and beyond and without the need to update for a few years or more?


Buy it, log out the forum never come back, the only way to guarantee no need to upgrade.


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## Rom

Haha, I did that once... but came back



Mrboots2u said:


> Buy it, log out the forum never come back, the only way to guarantee no need to upgrade.


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## DanB

Rom said:


> Haha, I did that once... but came back


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## Fez

Mrboots2u said:


> Buy it, log out the forum never come back, the only way to guarantee no need to upgrade.


This is the best advice you'll get @hutchys


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## Superluminal

Gents anyone know of a US seller? I called 1st-line and the person I talked to in sales said they had not heard it was coming but then, "sometimes they don't tell us everything."

I would be moving up from a Gaggia Classic with an Auber PID and a Niche Zero grinder.


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## ncrc51

I would think Paolo would be the person that might know of plans for US sales. I have perhaps the only Minima in the U.S. It is a beta model that I absolutely love. I do feel there may be some differences between US spec models vs. European models due to voltage differences. Regardless I'm a very happy Minima owner.


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## Superluminal

So look what just showed up on Amazon US...$1,800 with free shipping.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B07NSH4BSF/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=all&qid=1552153254&sr=8-1-spell


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## Dylan

nvm


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## Superluminal

Dylan said:


> nvm


It could be a scam, not sure as it's a brand new seller. More pointing out it popped up as I was asking above about US sellers.

Personally I'm going to wait for reviews etc.


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## ashcroc

Superluminal said:


> It could be a scam, not sure as it's a brand new seller. More pointing out it popped up as I was asking above about US sellers.
> 
> Personally I'm going to wait for reviews etc.


Thought they'd dropped the pressure gauge in the case in favour of one on the group for the production model.


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## Vollbart

Yes it's been moved to the group, at least on the version being shipped to the UK. The UK retailer Belle Barista is using the same overhead shot of the machine with the old location of the gauge. I guess they are outdated stock photos.


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## Vollbart

Just to feedback to this thread, I went ahead with the Minima in the end. I'm awaiting a new grinder before I can get the most out of the machine but I'm happy with what I've seen so far.

It's better looking than some of the photos indicate. Build quality is generally good, although the cut steel is pretty sharp in places. The drip tray seems a bit flimsy, it's not really in of itself but there doesn't appear to be a lip supporting the back edge?


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## Eyedee

Mrboots2u said:


> Buy it, log out the forum never come back, the only way to guarantee no need to upgrade.


I thought it might work but now I've recovered somewhat and been lurking for awhile.

Ian


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## DavecUK

Vollbart said:


> Just to feedback to this thread, I went ahead with the Minima in the end. I'm awaiting a new grinder before I can get the most out of the machine but I'm happy with what I've seen so far.
> 
> It's better looking than some of the photos indicate. Build quality is generally good, although the cut steel is pretty sharp in places. The drip tray seems a bit flimsy, it's not really in of itself but there doesn't appear to be a lip supporting the back edge?


I think it's tricky because most of the steel you can see or feel is cut by laser (hence the protective film), it does leave a clean edge that might even feel sharp I guess, hopefully people shouldn't cut themselves on it though. You may well have to change the PID settings a little I am trying to fine tune them at the moment. For some reason the production version seems to need some slight tweaks. The steel has been doubled in thickness for the case, frame and baseplate (because asked for this. However the cup tray and top plate was left the same as in the Beta as it doesn't need to take any significant loading. Also being thinner allows a lot more leeway on fit, so that a no rattle dip ray can be achieved. Tinware is very expensive as you go for a better and better finish, but doesn't deliver any more in the cup and arguably becomes a little more fragile wearing in use. The better the finish you start with the easier it seems to start looking old. Izzo used to use a slightly satinised finish which looked the same a few years later as when new. Other manufacturers like QM used a very shiny finish that seemed to show it's age much more unless people were super careful.

The main thing is how you find it in use, I'm not sure what machine you had before, but hopefully you are finding it performs really well and produces a nice shot.


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## Dylan

Superluminal said:


> It could be a scam, not sure as it's a brand new seller. More pointing out it popped up as I was asking above about US sellers.
> 
> Personally I'm going to wait for reviews etc.


I wrote something without reading the posts above, so my post was irrelevant, so I edited it out with a "nvm" it wasn't aimed at you.


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## lynyrds

Hi all,

does anyone know if the pressure gauge should have a gasket? Mine has none and it leaks a bit of water during a backflush.

Thx

Cheers

Michael


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## 9719

@DavecUK

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk


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## lynyrds

In fact, I see that even for a normal shot a drop or two escape from the gauge mount... Shouldn't be normal, I suppose...


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## GrahamS

Hindsight said:


> If folk are interested I see Bella Barista are now showing the Minima as available to pre-order.


 looks like they've dropped it already


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## BlackCatCoffee

GrahamS said:


> looks like they've dropped it already


 We will be stocking them shortly.


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