# E61



## Noangel72 (Dec 5, 2013)

Hi,

I was wondering if anybody could easily explain to me the difference between a machine using an E61 group (Eg. Expobar Leva) and one using a proprietary grouphead (eg. Bezzera BZ10), assuming both machines are HX and comparable on main specs!

I have done some reading and I understand the Faema E61 is the recognized standard and gives good temperature stability, other than that I am confused about which one is preferable when buying a machine and why!

Cheers!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

E61 parts are readily available and are tried and tested for decades so generally fairly reliable and easy to fix. Spares like portafilters, shower heads also easy to source. E61 basically became the adopted standard.


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## Noangel72 (Dec 5, 2013)

Ok. So if I had and Expobar Leva, for example, I could buy any spares made for E61 and be confident that it would fit my machine!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Isn't the e61 group heavier and does the a bezzera do pre infusion like an E61 or not ?


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## GS11 (Feb 20, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> tried and tested for decades


Indeed designed in 1961...hence the name.


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## Padder (Dec 14, 2012)

Isn't the main difference that an E61 group has water circulating through it heating the group and giving better temperature stability whereas the others heat the group through the head being physically attached to the boiler so is harder to stabilise temperatures?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Yes. See http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/the-mystery-of-the-e61-group-mushroom


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Incidentally, the 'E' refers to eclipse as, in 1961, there was a total eclipse in Italy.


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Incidentally, the 'E' refers to eclipse as, in 1961, there was a total eclipse in Italy.


Something else I didn't know!!! Will be boring all my friends with that one!!


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Not only does the E61 look the business its also does the business via the thermosyphon system. Where as the BZ10 you are looking at uses a heating element cartridge to heat the group. Personally i would want an E61 group to the one on the BZ10 for that sort of money. Like others have said, all e61 parts are available & is easily user serviceable.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

glevum said:


> Not only does the E61 look the business its also does the business via the thermosyphon system. Where as the BZ10 you are looking at uses a heating element cartridge to heat the group. Personally i would want an E61 group to the one on the BZ10 for that sort of money. Like others have said, all e61 parts are available & is easily user serviceable.


So the bezza doesn't naturally pre infuse like an e61 ?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> So the bezza doesn't naturally pre infuse like an e61 ?


Pretty sure that's correct Martin, the other thing I would suggest if the Expobar machines are now something you would look at is to stretch the little extra and get the PID controlled Expobar dual boiler machine, no messing around with cooling flushes etc then and still steam on demand or you can even switch the steam boiler off.


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## Noangel72 (Dec 5, 2013)

I think the BZ10 doesn't have pre-infusion and yes, it has an electrical heating element going through it! I think I agree! For the money the E61 seems to be the best choice. I also read that the E61 gives better tasting espresso and so it's more appropriate for espresso lovers (which is my case as I mostly drink shots).

Thanks, I'm convinced! E61 it is!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Noangel72 said:


> I think the BZ10 doesn't have pre-infusion and yes, it has an electrical heating element going through it! I think I agree! For the money the E61 seems to be the best choice. I also read that the E61 gives better tasting espresso and so it's more appropriate for espresso lovers (which is my case as I mostly drink shots). Thanks, I'm convinced! E61 it is!


Ah cool , now then , Rocket ? ECM? Italian , German , Spanish ..........


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

kikapu said:


> Something else I didn't know!!! Will be boring all my friends with that one!!


Er, aren't you doing that already??


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Er, aren't you doing that already??


Well if I had any left I would be!


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## Padder (Dec 14, 2012)

glevum said:


> Not only does the E61 look the business its also does the business via the thermosyphon system. Where as the BZ10 you are looking at uses a heating element cartridge to heat the group. Personally i would want an E61 group to the one on the BZ10 for that sort of money. Like others have said, all e61 parts are available & is easily user serviceable.


Does the sage have a similar heating system?


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## Noangel72 (Dec 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ah cool , now then , Rocket ? ECM? Italian , German , Spanish ..........


....that seems to be the big problem! I would go Italian all the way but it seems that in the UK Expobar represents the best deal...and at that I think the Leva dual boiler with PID for £1099 is a fantastic deal!.....I have kind of reached the conclusion that if I wanted an Italian HX with E61 and possibly even PID I would be looking and no less then £1200-1600 which is way over what I'm willing to spend on ANY coffee machine.......

If I had changed the machine last year while I was still living in Milan......damn me


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Padder said:


> Does the sage have a similar heating system?


Yes but unlike the Bezzera machines it has two separate PIDs one for the brew boiler and 1 for the group head, however, from the diagrams I have seen the Sage has the cartridge embedded in the group rather than in it's walls.


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## Noangel72 (Dec 5, 2013)

Update!

Well after searching, posting and lots of thinking.....I ordered a Rancilio Silvia!

I think after all I am simply not ready yet to spend £800-1000 on a coffee machine


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Noangel72 said:


> Update!
> 
> Well after searching, posting and lots of thinking.....I ordered a Rancilio Silvia!
> 
> I think after all I am simply not ready yet to spend £800-1000 on a coffee machine


Hope you enjoy the new machine , and it didn't cost you too much money .

Its a least Italian which fulfils one of your criteria .

I started on a Silvia , different kettle of fish to the e61 etc, and heat exchangers, but capable of making good espresso , with fresh beans and a capable grinder.

Plenty of advice on here on how to get the best from one .


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## Noangel72 (Dec 5, 2013)

Cheers! And thanks for the advice:good:


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Noangel72 said:


> Cheers! And thanks for the advice:good:


This is a good post to read ( applies to new and second hand owners .... )

What grinder are you pairing it with ?

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?10188-What-to-do-when-you-receive-a-2nd-hand-Silvia


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## Noangel72 (Dec 5, 2013)

I have a Baratza Vario. Worked great with my Classic already!


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