# Weight or volume???



## BertVanGoo (Nov 20, 2015)

I'm trying to read lots and watch video's, but I'm still getting mixed results with my shots. For example I just did a 18.4g basket, which pulled out 2oz in 26seconds, but the weight was 61.9g?? Is there something obvious I'm doing wrong or am I over thinking it? I know that taste is overall the most important thing, but I want to understand how to get to the ratio correct and still have the volume.

The shot tasted good and looked OK, the puck wasn't too bad after, just a little bit wet still. Had a mouse tail...ish on one side, but the other was a bit 'lumpy' coming out.

Just annoying that my yield isn't what most say it should be? I've attached a few picks just incase that helps, any feedback is welcomed, good or bad


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## Robbo (Feb 17, 2016)

Stop measuring by volume, measure by weight. 1:2 ratio. You probably wont get to 60ml but it doesn't matter. I asked the same question not so long ago and this info helped me! Let us know how you get on!


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## scottgough (Feb 9, 2016)

I measure by weight, but by taste I do prefer slightly longer shots than 1:2. Maybe around 1:2.5 / 1:3 18g in and around 50g out depending on the coffee. Trust your taste buds, if it tastes good, it is good; it's for drinking after all!







It's too easy to get obsessed with the numbers and miss the fact it tastes good!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

BertVanGoo said:


> I'm trying to read lots and watch video's, but I'm still getting mixed results with my shots. For example I just did a 18.4g basket, which pulled out 2oz in 26seconds, but the weight was 61.9g?? Is there something obvious I'm doing wrong or am I over thinking it? I know that taste is overall the most important thing, but I want to understand how to get to the ratio correct and still have the volume.
> 
> The shot tasted good and looked OK.


If you want to make sure you get a decent volume of shot (~1fl oz), then you already have the "correct" ratio which is 61.9/18.4= 3.36:1.

As Robbo says, folks are often pulling shorter than this, but that is up to you. At 3.36:1 your shots will be weaker than at say 2:1, again that is up to you to decide if they are too weak. Pulling shots to meet a perceived idea of volume isn't really a good idea, you could hit a bean with masses of crema that will overflow your glasses at 62g of output.

At the moment, you say that you are enjoying your shots at 3.36:1. If you want to try pulling shorter, try fining up the grind, and gradually going for a shorter brew ratio (aiming for a constant weight out for that ratio), this will make the drinks smaller, but stronger, hopefully retaining the flavour balance that you are currently enjoying. Just pulling a shorter shot at your current grind will drop the extraction & change the flavour balance.


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## Robbo (Feb 17, 2016)

scottgough said:


> I measure by weight, but by taste I do prefer slightly longer shots than 1:2. Maybe around 1:2.5 / 1:3 18g in and around 50g out depending on the coffee. Trust your taste buds, if it tastes good, it is good; it's for drinking after all!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agree with that. I like to get around 40g out from my 17g in. so not exactly 2:1. This usually is about 45ml in the shot glass


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

BertVanGoo said:


> I know that taste is overall the most important thing


taste is king

dont fall into the trap of making huge adjustments to your grinder

find where you achieve consistency and make minor adjustments from there

2:1 is good starting point (nothing is set in stone)

taste is king


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Weight


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

I am still confused about the question

2oz in 26 and it was 61.9g ? ...... 2oz with water is about ~60g, so a coffee solution with a variable crema is always going to be about ~60g

the only time I have ever got 36g to be 2oz was in the dsol where 50% of the shot was crema


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

I think it would be really helpful if someone with a good head for some of these common questions could make some summaries of these posts and put them as stickies. They come up over and over....

When an interested member asks, they can then simply be directed to the information. Job done. Cheaper than buying a book.

(That said, The forum could then publish the answers to sell to joe bloggs - my main reference here being to the 'i want to start a coffeee shop, but haven't done any research myself - what do i need?" types.... this is not intended as a reference to the OP)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

bongo said:


> I think it would be really helpful if someone with a good head for some of these common questions could make some summaries of these posts and put them as stickies. They come up over and over....
> 
> When an interested member asks, they can then simply be directed to the information. Job done. Cheaper than buying a book.
> 
> (That said, The forum could then publish the answers to sell to joe bloggs - my main reference here being to the 'i want to start a coffeee shop, but haven't done any research myself - what do i need?" types.... this is not intended as a reference to the OP)


Beginners Reading - Weighing Espresso - Brew Ratios

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=22879


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I'll look at the More recent threads and see I can can update with a faq to it also . Problem is people aren't directed to it or read it as new members


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am not technical, and the way I view it is this. Coffee boils down to extraction. By that, if you start off with 10 gms of dry grinds, then you initially set a goal to aim for which might be to extract + 60% in 25 to 30 seconds, so that would be in this case, 16 gms. You can then taste it. If the shot pulls within those most basic parameters, then the adjustment will come down to your own taste. That ratio will give quite an intense shot, especially if using medium or darker roast beans.

If it pours to quickly, then your basic options are to put more coffee into the basket or grind tighter, both will slow down the shot and the same is true of the reverse effect if it is pouring too slowly.

A typical double shot is 14 to 18 gms though it is up to you. If you are doing at 18 gms, then the output will be plus 60% or 28.8 gms, but remember, that is just your own starting point for reference


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If your starting with a medium to lighter toasted bean then it's more than likely a 1:1.6 ratio will hit nominal under extraction ( potential strong and sour ) although you could find some sweetness depending on your grinder - water - barista skills ( what is called pre hump nom ) Ratios and weighing all all about understanding the balance between sweetness - taste - strength and mouthfeel . No one brew ratio solves all for all coffee for people and tastes


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## BertVanGoo (Nov 20, 2015)

Thecatlinux said:


> taste is king
> 
> dont fall into the trap of making huge adjustments to your grinder
> 
> ...


did that before reading this ? But moved it back towards the original setting and getting somewhere


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## BertVanGoo (Nov 20, 2015)

Thanks all. I had read the beginners link, but the reason I bought it up is that I was watching a Seattle coffee gear video and they were saying that a single is 1oz and double 2oz and no mention of it depending on other stuff. So I went back to my machine had a look and wasn't getting that. It conflicts with other stuff I've read, so was just easier to ask people than confuse myself anymore and waste more beans trying to achieve that.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

BertVanGoo said:


> Thanks all. I had read the beginners link, but the reason I bought it up is that I was watching a Seattle coffee gear video and they were saying that a single is 1oz and double 2oz and no mention of it depending on other stuff. So I went back to my machine had a look and wasn't getting that. It conflicts with other stuff I've read, so was just easier to ask people than confuse myself anymore and waste more beans trying to achieve that.


The traditional Italian way of brewing espresso relies on volume out (including crema), but depending on crema 6.5-7.5g dose into 22.5-27.5ml of coffee could be anywhere from 1.5:1 or 4:1 by weight. A very wide range. Neither brew ratio is right or wrong, the ratio sets the target strength, but a good flavour balance could be achievable at either end, or anywhere in between, by adjusting your grind & staying at a given ratio.

Adjust the brew ratio if you want the coffee to be stronger or weaker. Adjust grind to steer/maintain flavour balance.


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Seattle Coffee Gear make really useful reviews of equipment, but I have yet to see them produce a coffee that I fancy drinking.

Most are served in swimming pool sized cups and I remember one clip where Gail explained why weighing coffee was a waste of time as she could do it better by eye.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

NickdeBug said:


> Seattle Coffee Gear make really useful reviews of equipment, but I have yet to see them produce a coffee that I fancy drinking.
> 
> Most are served in swimming pool sized cups and I remember one clip where Gail explained why weighing coffee was a waste of time as she could do it better by eye.


Oh my goodness they are awful for that. No way would I drink a thing from them. Videos are useful for machine features.


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

even if all things were equal, which they aren't, on one hand you have digital scales giving you a reading to 0.1 or 0.01g where as for volume measurement you have uncertainty of meniscus, volume crema to include, and widely spaced markings on the shot glass.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Not often you get to drop meniscus into the conversation. One of my all time favourite words! And an amazing quirk of liquid.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Missy said:


> Not often you get to drop meniscus into the conversation. One of my all time favourite words! And an amazing quirk of liquid.


Have you seen a reverse meniscus with mercury ?


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

yep







coool


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

El carajillo said:


> Have you seen a reverse meniscus with mercury ?


No and now I'm sad. I have such strong memories of dropping pins on water when I was about 6.... Doubt the teacher would have cracked open the mercury!


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