# Keep going finer? (kalita Wave / Wilfa Svart)



## CrazyH (Jan 14, 2011)

I've been trying to get a decent cup from a few coffees I picked up when I was back visiting the UK, lighter roasts - here everything is a bit dark. Brewing with a kalita wave and I think I'm still under-extracting even though i've tightened up beyond the aeropress marker and approaching mocha (I realise these aren't actually reflective of what they say but it's pretty fine).
Usually I've found somewhere between the end of the filter markings and the first letters of Aeropress are what works, so could something else be up?
Yesterday i definitely got the "butterscotch" tasting note but the brew there was still a lot of sourness - making it not very nice overall
Today a few steps finer, less sour but not much flavour, still something a bit sweet and syrupy, but also a bit of dryness. 
Brew is 15:250, Using a pretty cheap aliexpress pouring kettle but it's heated up to boiling on the stove and seems to pour fine, I just do a single pour, unless it's too high then I let it drain a bit. I'm wondering if I should really be going finer or dragging out the brew with pulse pouring - it really does seem fine for a drip brew.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

I think you need to be near the R I could be wrong.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

CrazyH said:


> Brew is 15:250, Using a pretty cheap aliexpress pouring kettle but it's heated up to boiling on the stove and seems to pour fine, I just do a single pour, unless it's too high then I let it drain a bit. I'm wondering if I should really be going finer or dragging out the brew with pulse pouring - it really does seem fine for a drip brew.


 This doesn't sound very repeatable? Your brew will be consistent when you pour the water the same way each time, that will make it easier to find the right grind.

I'd bloom with 30g for 40s. Really gently, then give the brewer a little shake.

Then pour 110g at :0:40, then again at 1:40, 2nd pour straight down middle. Each pour taking about 30s.

Or, bloom with 40g/40s, then 3 more pours of 70g every 40s, each pour taking ~20s duration, last 2 straight down the middle.

Yes, a single pour brew will mean a fine grind, or a very slow controlled pour (very hard to do for 2:00, so breaking up into pulses is more consistent).

Don't be afraid to go higher than 60g/L either.

Agreed, a lot of roasts here are a bit dark for filter, maybe try Obadiah in Edinburgh, or Roundhill.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

It's funny you should post this as I've just had the exact same experience with a Wilfa and some China Lafu from Django. I just couldn't get it to extract right at all.

It ended up as a course espresso grind and absolutely nowhere near the grind setting I usually have for a v60 and it was still underextracting. I even sent them an email about it but they couldn't help. They offered to send me some more coffee but I declined. I could tell the coffee was of a decent quality and I don't think they should cover the cost of me not being able to get the grind right.

I know this doesn't really help you, but maybe just see how you go with other coffees. It may just be a one off. I've been buying speciality coffee for 30 years and although I'm not as geeky or knowledgeable as some on here, I'd like to think I can make a decent brew and this is the first time anything like this has happened to me.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

When you say "here everything is a bit dark" are you talking about the UK or the country you're based?

I quite like a medium roast for espresso, but do often find myself wishing the coffees I've bought for pourover were a little bit lighter.

I suppose you have to cater for your customer base though and maybe the sort of winey, bright coffees I love are considered too acidic by the masses.


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## CrazyH (Jan 14, 2011)

In Israel where they haven't quite really caught up with "third wave" coffee scene - although it's fledgling.
Back in the UK (before I moved over) I didn't really have a drip, just immersion i.e french press/aeropress/clever dripper so I don't have great reference point for what the grind *should* look like. I would get a lot of hasbean and the like then.
I did clever dripper mostly and found i generally ground quite coarse -possibly suggesting that I was probably hitting the first extraction bump in those dose.

I will try the above methods. Have a feeling I'll have more luck with the pulses - just cos it's easier to stay steady for short periods - but we'll see.

Edit: I think i was pouring fairly consistently but as the grind got finer it drained slow enough that it approached the top.. usually when the grinder is around the first 'e' or 'r' this doesn't happen, the water level stays fairly consistent so flow in roughly equivalent to flow out.

Thanks


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

cold war kid said:


> It's funny you should post this as I've just had the exact same experience with a Wilfa and some China Lafu from Django. I just couldn't get it to extract right at all.
> 
> It ended up as a course espresso grind and absolutely nowhere near the grind setting I usually have for a v60 and it was still underextracting. I even sent them an email about it but they couldn't help. They offered to send me some more coffee but I declined. I could tell the coffee was of a decent quality and I don't think they should cover the cost of me not being able to get the grind right.


 If all your other brews come out about right at a given setting, but one coffee still under-extracts, even after going significantly finer, it is certainly a problem with the coffee.


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## CrazyH (Jan 14, 2011)

Now wondering if the problem is this coffee - grinder seems unlikely but I have hand grinder in the cupboard I can try.. hard to imagine something from square mile would be "bad" maybe having it in a luggage hold did something to it but I've done long steeps in the aeropress (fine, 15 mins, using TWW) and clever( medium - 50 mins ,using filtered tap) and still sour - I get other nice flavours but the sourness never goes away. I have a bag from hasbean to try as well so will see if that's ok - if not then something weird is going on.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

CrazyH said:


> Now wondering if the problem is this coffee - grinder seems unlikely but I have hand grinder in the cupboard I can try.. hard to imagine something from square mile would be "bad" maybe having it in a luggage hold did something to it but I've done long steeps in the aeropress (fine, 15 mins, using TWW) and clever( medium - 50 mins ,using filtered tap) and still sour - I get other nice flavours but the sourness never goes away. I have a bag from hasbean to try as well so will see if that's ok - if not then something weird is going on.


 I wouldn't grind any different for Clever compared to Aeropress.

What are the notes on the Squaremile?


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## CrazyH (Jan 14, 2011)

ach my reply didn't send. Orange, cacao nibs and butterscotch but I opened up the hasbean bag and same issue, even steeping. have been looking and the grinds look sorta weird, like it's not really breaking up in to bits properly and looks sort of disintegrated. I tried going coarse (around the F of filter) to see what it looked like.. Looked more normal but still some of that "disintegrated" look. Made a long french press with it - still tasted a bit weird but not super sour. 
Not sure what any of that means - it's very strange - maybe i'll have to try the hand grinder to compare.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I do't understand what you mean by "disintegrated", or "normal". At F for filter the grind should just be coarser.

If your French press is small & glass, then I'd still be grinding fine as for moka/Aeropress/Clever.

Unless the Wilfa is obviously & clearly broken, it shouldn't produce a result substantially different to the hand grinder.

Maybe stop changing grind & brew method, pick one method & regime, dial that in methodically.

Seems like it's more than one coffee that's the issue now, I usually find Hasbean on the dark side for filter, rather than the brighter side.

If you are going to compare hand grinder vs Wilfa, grind 10g of a grind that you think that works & sift for 2 min, weigh what you have left. Repeat for the other grinder to see how similar they are set. If you can tell grind characteristics just by looking at the grind, you are the only person who can.


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## CrazyH (Jan 14, 2011)

I guess it looks kind of fibrous or shredded rather than grain shaped? I'll see if I can get a good picture. At the F setting it was definitely coarser but didn't look as consistent as usual and still had some of the look I've described.

I'll see if the sieve I have is suitable to do that - openings might be a bit too big though.

Yep, looks I'll have to try and set up some methodology to debug this with only one variable changing - probably that means french press as I have two near identical ones I can brew side by side. Hopefully will have a chance tomorrow.


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## CrazyH (Jan 14, 2011)

Don't have a suitable sieve and Still need to do a side by side but both coffees seem to taste fine from the hand grinder so perhaps there is something wrong with the wilfa, though why it would make everything sour is a mystery - excess fines shouldn't do that.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

CrazyH said:


> Don't have a suitable sieve and Still need to do a side by side but both coffees seem to taste fine from the hand grinder so perhaps there is something wrong with the wilfa, though why it would make everything sour is a mystery - excess fines shouldn't do that.


 OK, we seem to have jumped forward in time...

What is the "everything" that is sour? (Brewer, regime, weights & times)

If you haven't sifted, how do you know you have excess fines? "Excess fines" is usually how people describe a 'too fine of a grind'...if you wan't less small particles go coarser. There are blade grinders that don't make "excess fines", so I'm wondering how the Wilfa is so broken that it could do this without there being an obvious sign?

Are you saying that all your grind, from both grinders, totally passes through the sieve?

Too fine a grind can produce a citrus pith like flavour, so it depends on what kind of sourness you have, is the brew heavy/chewy/citrus pith, or is it light & bright sourness?


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