# My first try at coffee



## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Hello folks,

Ok, please help. This is my first try at coffee with steamed/foamed milk. I have a Mazzer SJ and a Gaggia Classic with steam wand mod.

Attempt 1: 16grams of beans ground: Two warm cappuccino cups under the taps.

The espresso didn't come out enough from one of the taps so I tipped the lesser amount into the other cup. I foamed the milk as best I could following instructions found online. I couldn't hold the jug underneath when I'd finished. I spooned the foam in and then poured the milk in. By the time I got it to my wife (guinea pig) it wasn't very hot. She said it was like Costa Coffee but warm instead of hot. I think she was being kind. She said the texture and taste was good. The puck was just damp when I emptied it.

Attempt 2: 14 grams of beans ground: One cappuccino cup under the taps. I decided to measure how much came out after 27 seconds: I got just under 60ml BUT here is the very strange part. I realised I hadn't tamped it. Now in my very limited experience, (30 minutes) that seems wrong. Anyway, I carried on and steamed the milk. It was much hotter than the previous one, my wife said it was too strong and she wouldn't have been able to drink the whole cup. Please explain why this was stronger









Attempt 3: 14 grams of beans ground: This was done purely as a test to measure how much went through after tamping:

30 seconds delivered 60ml. When I removed the portafilter there was water on the top of it. I have to admit to hitting the on/off switch when I meant to hit the brew switch to stop the delivery, maybe this caused that.

Anyway, I would be very grateful for any advice you can give from the info I've given. I hope I get better because at this rate (3 cups in 30 minutes) if we ever have a dinner party and they all want coffee they might as well bring their sleeping bags









Kind regards

Phil


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Normal "starting point" is about double the dose weight in circa 30sec (although only circa).

So 60ml (which is roughly 60g give or take crema etc) in 30 seconds is:

a) Really fast

b) Really a lot of liquid

Are you using a "real" basket ie with lots of holes all over the bottom (rather than just 1)

1) Grind finer...

2) Tamp "as constantly as you can"

3) Aim for circa 2x dose weight in circa 30 seconds...

(So in your case 14g dose ==> 28g)

try again.... and again... adjusting grind only (keep same dose, same tamp and same time).........

Try the coffee neat.... before worrying about milk - If the basic shot isn't good milk might "hide" it but won't make it better.

Did I mention trying again.....


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## Wuyang (Mar 21, 2014)

Forgot to mention only adjust grinder when the burrs are moving....empty.

Try 16-18, but adjust grind maybe less fine? 14 grams in 30 ain't bad at all really.

A lot of people weigh the coffee out against time, you would have to check think a ratio of 1.6 x weight of coffee in say 25-30.

Steaming milk......right I like mine banging hot, but tend to drink as it cools.

I heat my cup in microwave 1 min 1 min 30 sec depending on cup ready for the espresso to be poured into from shot glass....straight away.

Then steam milk........I never scoop froth onto coffee, when you finished steaming swirl your milk in the jug. Good steaming will create microfoam where the air bubbles are small and distributed through the milk.

Can either for good results wait say five seconds after ready to steam light comes on.....

or or start steaming before light comes on but not soon as you switch steam switch on.....weight a bit....takes a bit of practice, but when mastered you will get enough power to maintain a good swirl.

i hold old jug by handle and touch sides for heat.....but with the classic a minute plus and you will here a totally different sound when you are steaming.....generally it will be good and hot at this point.

Phil, did you get the two separate emails of notes?

Please take all my advice with a pinch of salt it's what worked for me, there are people on here who are much more knowledgeable, hope your enjoying yourself and I'm sure it won't belong before your knocking up some cracking drinks.


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks Drewster and Jonathan,

Drewster: Thank you for your reply. I read that 2oz for a double in 25-30secs is fine. Sorry for debating this with you as I am a complete newbie but everywhere I look it says 2oz for a double at around 25-30 secs, 2oz is just under 60ml. I am using a proper portafilter with lots of holes in it. The double sized one. I read somewhere that 7-9 grams per single i.e. 14-18 grams for a double and as my wife and I don't like it too strong I went for the minimum.

Jonathan: Thank you for your reply. Yes I did get all of your brilliant emails but I thought I may have misinterpreted them so I asked for help here. Also you have put so much of your time into helping me I didn't want to impose on you any more







I got the spoon scooping idea from here







Seems like a good idea for beginners as even some top baristas do it, allegedly









Thanks for your help folks.

Phil


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

As stated above , try for consistency. Use a measured (weighed) amount of coffee and also weigh the output, time should be approximately 25 sec.

The usual starting point is for 1 to 2 coffee / liquid, you need a set of scales. Only change one parameter at a time.

Basket's are manufactured to accept set amounts of coffee + /- a gram, over and under filling can cause problems.To check for over filling, dose and tamp the coffee, place a 1 p coin on the coffee and insert into machine, remove the P/F and check to see if there is an indent in the coffee. Slight mark =OK deep indent = over filled.

With regard to "dinner party coffee's" do not try with the Classic, it has a very small boiler and is not intended for that type of use.


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thank you El carajillo,

I do have some scales but I only weighed the beans before grinding. I didn't weigh the espresso I just measured the volume. I will try that. I will also try the 1p coin trick.

I was only joking about the dinner party coffees to emphasise how slow I am. I was in a bit of a flap thinking about everything and trying to get my fair lady a decent drink









Cheers

Phil


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## Wuyang (Mar 21, 2014)

You'll get there, I'd personally try more than 14g.. I always get some on the shower screen... I know your meant not to, just remember to give it a wipe.

Dont know if I mentioned when I've ground I put my hand flat on top of the grinder where the hopper would normally be, I then sort of push my hand down, a bit like a pump, it helps dislodge the grinds in the grind chute.

You can also buy a camera lens hood ( flexible one ) as a little mini hopper, once your beans are ground you then put the lid of a birds custard tub in the rim of the lens hood hopper and press down, that also helps pump the grounds out of the chute.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Phil66 said:


> Thank you El carajillo,
> 
> I do have some scales but I only weighed the beans before grinding. I didn't weigh the espresso I just measured the volume. I will try that. I will also try the 1p coin trick.
> 
> ...


It requires a little perseverance, time and patience but you can make really good coffee with the Classic, and you can steam milk for two.

Has the M/ch been cleaned ? Coffee oil and "gunge" build up in the head of the M/ch over time and this will spoil the taste of the coffee.

Cleaning requires you to remove the screen (one central screw) and then an allen key to remove the dispersion block (two "A" bolts).

Lots of info on forum "how to"


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks Jonathan,

You hadn't mentioned the hand pumping but I sussed it out after seeing the lens hood mod on YouTube. I've ordered a hood. Does putting more grinds in make it stronger if the extraction is the same time?

Thanks

Phil


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

El carajillo said:


> It requires a little perseverance, time and patience but you can make really good coffee with the Classic, and you can steam milk for two.
> 
> Has the M/ch been cleaned ? Coffee oil and "gunge" build up in the head of the M/ch over time and this will spoil the taste of the coffee.
> 
> ...


Thanks but what's the M/ch?

Phil


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## Wuyang (Mar 21, 2014)

The shower screen and behind was cleaned not too long long back.....also back flushed.

One of the experts would be able to tell you about strength, but I would have thought so. I'm pretty sure I did 18g tapped a bit down with my finger and swept little excess off.....and ground yo achieve 25-35 sec for for double shot.

Nothing to say you wouldn't achieve what you want with 14g etc.....


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks Jonathan,

At the moment I think it's too strong because both drinks have been a double.

A few things I really don't understand.

1: why was the untamped brew stronger tasting than the tamped one?

2: why did the tamped and untamped both deliver the same size shot in the same time?

3: Why did the first one cool down so quickly? It went from the milk jug being untouchable to my wife drinking with ease and I only took it from kitchen to lounge after preparing the drink.

Cheers

Phil


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Lets try and simplify this ......



Phil66 said:


> Thanks Jonathan,
> 
> At the moment I think it's too strong because both drinks have been a double.
> 
> ...


Dont get hung up on a double or single ... again use your weights....pe

But ...A "double" in itself isnt stroing, strength is function of how much water to coffee you are using

A 18 g dose with 18 g water is strong and still a double

an 18 g dose and 36 g shot wont be as strong ...

http://baristahustle.wpengine.com/espresso-recipes-analyzing-dose/

http://baristahustle.wpengine.com/analyzing-espresso-recipes-strength/

I would nt worry with not tamping , its not helping you get to coffee consistency ...


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## Wuyang (Mar 21, 2014)

1, Do a consistent tamp...not too hard, but firm...ideally equal height from top of basket.

2, Try 16- 18g stick at the amount you choose for the now.

3, Grind finer.....or courser to get your double shot ( generally standard amount unless going by weight ) aim for 25/30 as a flexible guide.

A double shot would never really be too strong.... Maybe put more milk in to taste suits, or use beans that are not as dark a roast ( although maybe yours aren't a dark roast.

You may get more Gaggia owners responses on the Gaggia sub section.

Dont worry too much about all the whys jus now just aim for the above....you'll get there soon


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Again Strength is a function of coffee to water ratio.... sometimes people can confuse bitter with strength ... A dark roast wont be stronger than a lighter one , it may be more prevalent to having bitter flavours ( depending in the notes and how its extracted ) which may need sweetness of mill to balance it out .


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks,

My wife said the first one would have been very good if it was hotter.

Sorry about the questions but when I'm learning I like to know why things are like what they are. It's like playing guitar, I could never just accept that A7 was just a chord name. I had to know what the 7 meant over a standard A chord. Teachers and friends told me to take it as name. I found out for myself and understood what it meant as with diminished and augmented. Many can just learn the shape and the name that goes with it. I have to know why.

Sorry, thirst for knowledge is to blame

Cheers

Phil


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Phil66 said:


> Thanks,
> 
> My wife said the first one would have been very good if it was hotter.
> 
> ...


That's great - have a look at the barista hustle links i posted

Ultimatley you wanna make tasty drinks, as a priority ,though ..

The barista hustle links on dose-yield- strength and recipes will start to fill gaps for you .


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Wuyang said:


> 1, Do a consistent tamp...not too hard, but firm...ideally equal height from top of basket.
> 
> 2, Try 16- 18g stick at the amount you choose for the now.
> 
> ...


Okay,

I tried 18g of beans and slightly finer grind. I was going to do some experiments with the weight of the dose but my wife wanted to be guinea pig again so I had to go in at the deep end.


Ground the beans and got as much out of the grinder as possible.

Pre-heated cups in microwave for 1:30mins

Tamped the powder and put a penny on top, put it into the machine and out again and the penny had pressed into the grinds so the top of the penny was flush with the top of the grinds.

Removed penny and re-tamped.

Put two cappuccino cups under the taps and started the shot. After 30 seconds thick brown coffee from the right spout, nothing from the left until 45 seconds. I continued for 63 seconds.

I poured a tiny amount of the right cup contents into the left. Steamed milk and poured into the right cup. Wife said it was nice and hot but a little strong. I then gave her the left cup and she said that was much better and she could have it stronger. It was too mild for me.

Removed the porta filter, there was a lot of water on top of the puck.


Over all a bit of an improvement over last night, they were hotter and didn't take so long. I have ordered a larger milk jug as mine is only 330ml and I have to foam two lots as I only get one and a half cups from it so I've gone for a 600ml.

I think the balance will be better when I next try on Thursday, (no time tomorrow) if I can get an equal pour from the two spouts. This seems to be my biggest problem at the moment. The tamper does look very even all the way around when I've tamped.

Fingers crossed.

Phil


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

For what it's worth I generally find 17.5g a good dose in the gaggia double basket.

63 secs is too long to run your gaggia pump.

That said I rather liked a 40second shot from it when I was starting out.

Query, how accurate are your scales?


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thank you for your help Missy.

My scales are brand new, measure to .01g but I haven't got anything to check them with.

I only ran the pump for that long because I was aiming for 20 seconds after the coffee started coming through the left spout.

Cheers

Phil


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Time from when you switch on the pump - bit from when the coffee comes out . Although I always say don't get hung up on time - kill the shot by weight 63 seconds shot at 9 bar probably indicates that your grind is too fine- and would reflect possibly in the taste .


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

They are likely accurate enough (wanted to check you weren't using less accurate kitchen scales!)

Your timing should be from when you hit the brew switch. Head for no more than 50secs was the advice I had.

Tamping harder will obviously make it harder for the water to get through, creating the looooong shot time.

You are talking in terms of strong and weak... to really succeed try and alter your language/perception.

Give the espresso a stir, and sip before you add milk. Ask yourself "sour or bitter"?

Sour is sort of acidic lemon juicy type mouth Puckering.

Bitter is sort of burnt, harsh, makes you want to push your tongue out of your mouth.

Both of those are bad. Sweet rich chocolatey fruity are all good things. It should be like a good Christmas cake, deep and tastes of "Christmas cake" but with variable undertones.

If it just tastes of (for example) burnt car tyres you are off target!


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Oh and you've twigged we are talking about turns of a few degrees for changing grind size on the SJ once you are at this stage? One or two notches, gently, with both hands in my case?


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Missy said:


> Oh and you've twigged we are talking about turns of a few degrees for changing grind size on the SJ once you are at this stage? One or two notches, gently, with both hands in my case?


Thanks Missy,

When you say "notches" are you referring to the little ridges on the dial? Would moving to line up the two arrows be enough to do at a time?









Thank you.

Phil


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Time from when you switch on the pump - bit from when the coffee comes out . Although I always say don't get hung up on time - kill the shot by weight 63 seconds shot at 9 bar probably indicates that your grind is too fine- and would reflect possibly in the taste .


Thank you Mrboots,

I only ran the pump for that long because I was aiming for 20 seconds after the coffee started coming through the left spout whcih was 45 seconds after I switched the pump on. I had a cup under each tap so it was a juggling act.

Cheers

Phil


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

More than plenty! That's almost my full range (possibly twice that at a max!)

Try and use a consistent tamp weight too- for now. (I say for now, I occasionally adjust tamp not grind if the weather is playing up, but I'm pulling several shots a day)


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## SimonN (Feb 4, 2016)

I agree with Missy, moving the collar that much is far too much. It sounds like your grind is too fine at the moment, I would try adjusting to between the two red marks in the picture. I would hazard a guess that may even be a little too much!

You haven't mentioned the weight of the coffee you are getting out in the last few posts. This is essential, especially at the moment whilst your still getting to grips with everything - listen to Mrboots!

So, for now, grind a little coarser, weigh 16-18gms of coffee in, put a cup on the scales and start the machine. Stop the shot when it weighs 32-36gms, taste it and report back. If, from starting the machine to stopping it, took around 25-30 seconds you're pretty close. If it took much longer then grind slightly coarser, much less then grind slightly finer.

Once you're in the right ballpark people will give you advice on making coffee stronger/weaker.

Good luck,

Simon


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks Simon,

I'm not ignoring Mrboots is just my wife keeps wanting to try it then I'm in a flap to get her a nice coffee so I forget. I'll leave the grinder where it is and do a test shot tomorrow weighing the coffee grinds not the beans and then the actual coffee and timing how long it took to get 32 grams.

Cheers

Phil


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## SimonN (Feb 4, 2016)

Hi Phil,

Keeping the wife happy is also part of the espresso making challenge 

When you get time do exactly what you are suggesting, and adjust the grind very slightly if necessary. Once you have the espresso sorted you can move onto the cappuccino!

Most importantly though, enjoy the experience and have fun - don't get too frustrated!!


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## Wuyang (Mar 21, 2014)

Wouldn't get too hung up on the penny thing.

18g and I used to shave some off at that so likes been said 17.5 is a good guide.

Just do less fine grind.....i usually expect coffee to start leaving at around 6 sec ish but not set in stone.

nice firm tamp.

just keep slowly altering grind and your time will drop.


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks Jonathan


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

OK, here are some videos.

The espresso tasted ok to my talent-less taste buds, it wasn't too bitter and had a hint of toffee.

The tamp and shot pull. A little quick I think but it came out of both spouts nearly at the same time.






Any tips gratefully received.

Thank you.

Phil


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Are you weighing your dose and the espresso .. if not why not ?

This is the single piece of advice that a number of people have given you , it really does have some value.

Ad without a recipe , we cant help you adjust your shots to help balance the taste

Puckology - what the puck looks like tell you nothing post shot , i wouldnt be concerned with it


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

So so sorry, I have so much coffee stuff in my head







I keep forgetting something









I'll do it tomorrow, I'll do what I did tonight so won't need to video it.

Sorry for wasting folk's time,

Can you tell me anything from the videos? I thought the puck could revel something about channelling or something like that?

Thanks and sorry again.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I can tell your are not weighing your coffee ...

Dose looks " alot "

Shot looks like it is quick and channeling , perhaps a function of the smaller tamper

Really without dose , weight out and time , its harder to diagnose much more

Looks like you are making alot of espresso

What were the notes on the coffee , did you shot match them in anyway .


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks Mrboots

What does "dose looks alot" mean? Is "alot" a special word in coffee circles?

I'm taking my tamper and basket to work to measure accurately tomorrow on a CMM

Notes on coffee were " it wasn't too bitter and had a hint of toffee".

Cheers

Phil


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Phil66 said:


> Thanks Mrboots
> 
> What does "dose looks alot" mean? Is "alot" a special word in coffee circles?
> 
> ...


What was the weight of the ground coffee in the basket? Baskets are designed to hold a set weight.... when Boots says "alot" he is suggesting a lot more than the basket is designed to hold.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Where to begin ..... scales for one!


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

I'll have to weigh it, I'm only going on my interpretation of Jonathan's instructions of 17.5g of grinds. He said he got good coffee so I followed his lead, maybe he was using different beans etc

Thanks

Phil


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Got scales



garydyke1 said:


> Where to begin ..... scales for one!


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## SimonN (Feb 4, 2016)

Phil

What people are saying is that you are clearly not weighing your coffee output - instead you seem to be stopping your shot when you reach a certain point on the shot glass. You need to stop the shot when the coffee weighs a certain amount (starting with twice the weight of the ground coffee for now). So, put you glass on some scales before starting your shot.

From your video it seems that your shot is too fast. This could be due to channelling or could be that your grind is too course. Your video shows your shot only takes around 20 seconds, aim for 25-30 seconds so try grinding faster. However, this is based on 16-18g in and 32-36g out. That's why we need these figures from you!

Cheers

Simon


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Phil66 said:


> Thanks Mrboots
> 
> What does "dose looks alot" mean? Is "alot" a special word in coffee circles?
> 
> ...


A lot means that that there seems " a lot "

Coffee in it . If your are using a stock gaggia basket 17.5 g may be pushing it dose wise . Coffee needs headroom to expand .

When I said notes on the coffee - I meant the coffee you have bought will come with some tasting notes for you. What are the roasters tasting notes ?

It's a guide only but will give you some idea if you are in the general ball park .

Different coffee and different grind settings will fill the basket more than others .


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

SimonN said:


> Phil
> 
> What people are saying is that you are clearly not weighing your coffee output - instead you seem to be stopping your shot when you reach a certain point on the shot glass. You need to stop the shot when the coffee weighs a certain amount (starting with twice the weight of the ground coffee for now). So, put you glass on some scales before starting your shot.
> 
> ...


Thanks Simon,

You are exactly right. I guess I was confused with everything I have been reading all over the www. I'm confused with a lot of things, like how to do a single shot if I want one because I've been told not to use a single basket but also that I can't half fill a double basket. My wife doesn't always fancy a coffee and sometimes I fancy a mild one.

This evening I will weigh the ground coffee, tamp it (my tamp is 57.8mm and basket is 59mm) and put the scales on the machine while I extract as Mrboots said.

I'll be back with the results.

Cheers

Phil


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## SimonN (Feb 4, 2016)

Don't worry too much about single/double shots at this stage - in fact, don't worry about it at all! You can use your single basket to make a smaller shot, but getting it right is very tricky and frankly, I wouldn't bother. A 36g drink (don't think of it as a double) really isn't that much, and I doubt any coffee you've been served in a shop will have smaller than this. If you wife likes mild milky drinks (latte) I would suggest just using more milk. But let's get your 36g shot right first!


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Daren said:


> when Boots says "alot" he is suggesting a lot more than the basket is designed to hold.


Thanks, at first I thought that and that it was a typo but then it was repeated so I thought it might be a coffee forum thing like "pwned" I wasn't being pedantic









Okay, test results: 18grams of grinds. Start machine, 5 seconds to start of espresso coming out of spout and 18 seconds to produce 36g of espresso.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Phil


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Sounds like dose is too high. Slow build build up while coffee absorbs the water then a quick gush, either due to a coarse grind or puck fracture. I would drop the dose to 16g and repeat without any other change. Likely this will be too quick so then stick at 16g and alter the grind finer.


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks, could it possibly be the tamp pressure?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Phil66 said:


> Thanks, could it possibly be the tamp pressure?


weigh the dose - try 16-17 g - tighten the grind accordingly


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

That basket is massively over full. Which of these are you using?









This is a used puck in my double basket (not making a fresh one now!)










You can see the gap, and that there's also a slight impression from the screw, despite the gap.

I suspect either you are using the wrong basket or you are weighing far too much out. I dose 17.5-18g bean depending.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Phil66 said:


> Okay, test results: 18grams of grinds. Start machine, 5 seconds to start of espresso coming out of spout and 18 seconds to produce 36g of espresso.
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> ...


Just give us the total shot time, it saves confusion.

Always give a taste appraisal, even if it's "good/dunno/bad". If you can't drink the whole shot, try some off the top, the middle & the last bit in the cup.


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks, I'm using the double basket, the one on the left in your picture. I had 18 grams of beans and got it all out of the grinder.

I'm really confused now.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Drop to 16g as a start point.

And tell us how it tastes.

You can short hand your results (I write them down when dialling in, and used to always do it when I started out)

16g >[email protected] (secs)

Tasted of burnt tyres (or however you tasted it, bitter, sweet, fruity, acidic, sour, vile, yummy, whatever)


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Just give us the total shot time, it saves confusion.
> 
> Always give a taste appraisal, even if it's "good/dunno/bad". If you can't drink the whole shot, try some off the top, the middle & the last bit in the cup.


Total time 23 seconds. It tasted ok to me but I've never really been a neat espresso drinker, maybe I need some tasting training like wine drinkers can get. It wasn't very bitter but it wasn't sweet, slightly toffee tasting too.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Phil66 said:


> Total time 23 seconds. It tasted ok to me but I've never really been a neat espresso drinker, maybe I need some tasting training like wine drinkers can get. It wasn't very bitter but it wasn't sweet, slightly toffee tasting too.


Ok what's the coffee your are using .... what are the tasting notes supplied by the roaster


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ok what's the coffee your are using .... what are the tasting notes supplied by the roaster


This is all I had. I had one of his flat whites at a food fayre, it was so nice I emailed him to ask what he used. He said he has his own blend made. It was that flat white that made me want to get a proper machine. So now, here I am, totally discombobulated


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Does it have a roast date ? Or any tasting notes ....


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

No, sorry, just what's on the packet.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Phil66 said:


> No, sorry, just what's on the packet.


This is not a great sign


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Well I used to use Illy, so I guess it's a step in the right direction







I guess my palette will get much more discerning in the coming months. At the moment this tastes fine. Illy used to taste great, I might even try some more now I've tried this, see if I can tell the difference.

Cheers


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Phil66 said:


> Well I used to use Illy, so I guess it's a step in the right direction
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't over analyse, I don't really care what it tastes like, I don't care whether you think it tastes like it should, or not...just taste it & ask yourself is it nice/neutral/nasty. Would you pay money for it, or recommend it to someone you know who likes coffee, confident in the fact that it is something that people who like coffee would probably like, without milk/sugar.

You don't need to be a super taster, or a coffee expert to know if you like something or not. Average coffee, made well, tastes better than "neither like nor dislike". It's at least a bit nice, afterall, we were all drinking coffee & enjoying it to some degree before we got more serious about it.

If your palate really isn't up to recognising something pleasant(I'm pretty sure it is), you're already there...so hopefully we all realise that there is room to move regarding improvement. I know it might be intimidating if you think of yourself as a novice, garnering advice from more experienced folk, but it's you that you're making the coffee for, not anyone else. Break things down to their simplest form in taste assessment to start with.

I'm not crazy about the dark Illy roast, but they do produce reasonably nice coffee & some tasty single origins. Focus on what the drink you have tastes like, not on peer group opinions on a certain coffee because, whatever coffee you have, it is subject to the same mechanisms when you come to make it.

Report back on your shots one by one. We want, for each shot: grinder setting, dose (weighed out of the grinder, not in, to 0.1g), beverage weight to 1g on the drip tray as the shot ends, shot time total & "nice/neutral/nasty" for taste at the minimum. Change one thing at a time. Good luck.


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

Phil I can see that you're a chap who likes step by step instructions so I thought this might help

1. Grind, weigh out 16g

2. Tamp (don't worry about pressure, it needs to be enough so there's no air pockets in puck)

3. Place the scales on the drip tray and cup on top. Using a timer, start timing from the moment you start the shot.

4. When the shot gets to 32g stop the timer and note the time

5. Give the shot a little swirl (crema doesn't taste that nice) and taste it. Is it nice/nasty/ok

6. Let us know:

ground weight in

liquid weight out

time

whether it tasted ok or not

Hope this helps


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks,

Love your "mmmatron" carry on reference.

Well the last one was 18grams of grinds and 23 seconds 36g of espresso. Tasted fine to me.

Cheers

Phil


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Excellent! 18>[email protected]" is a great starting point for what many on here would expect to taste good, assuming decent beans and water. If you can replicate that consistently then Robert is your father's brother.

PS thanks for explaining "mmmatron" - For months I had been thinking it was like a "Mmm-a-tron" , in other words a machine that made something yummy. A bit like an Orgasmatron but for coffee. It never occurred to me it was Kenneth Williams! This in spite of the fact that I have watched all the Carry On films, even that Willo the Wisp rubbish with the evil Edna TV when I was a kid, and still failed to spot the obvious! Funny what misconceptions you can have. Titter ye not.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Phil66 said:


> Thanks,
> 
> Love your "mmmatron" carry on reference.
> 
> ...


Cool, job done, would have been nice to have a grind setting though.


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

The grinder is still set so I can give you that this evening.

Basically, I'm thinking, please correct me if I'm wrong, the espresso should weigh double the grind then you have your reference of how the beans should (roughly) taste and you can fine tune to your own desire from that point.

Cheers

Phil


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Phil66 said:


> The grinder is still set so I can give you that this evening.
> 
> Basically, I'm thinking, please correct me if I'm wrong, the espresso should weigh double the grind then you have your reference of how the beans should (roughly) taste and you can fine tune to your own desire from that point.
> 
> ...


The espresso should always weigh in accordance with the brew ratio you are using, it doesn't have to weigh twice the dose. If it weighs more than twice the dose it will be weaker, if it weighs less than half the dose, it will be stronger. But when dialling in a bean, stick to a ratio & adjust grind only, until you get a good flavour, then think about tweaking strength by changing the ratio.

I think most people's desire would be a cup with little sourness, or bitterness & with natural sweetness.

People don't all like the same things, but a good cup will be common to the majority.

If all your cups of coffee have the same taste, irrespective of the bean used, then you are tasting more of what you are doing, rather than the bean itself. This might take a bit of experience, but at the moment you are liking what you are making, getting to grips with a repeatable method...so enjoy & gradually build on it.


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

hotmetal said:


> PS thanks for explaining "mmmatron" - For months I had been thinking it was like a "Mmm-a-tron" , in other words a machine that made something yummy. A bit like an Orgasmatron but for coffee. It never occurred to me it was Kenneth Williams!


 it is indeed a carry on reference (I'm a nurse by day)


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I shall try to get Hattie Jacques out of my head - and that one that was in black adder LOL! Sorry! Maybe it's time for my meds


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

Phil66 said:


> The grinder is still set so I can give you that this evening.
> 
> Basically, I'm thinking, please correct me if I'm wrong, the espresso should weigh double the grind then you have your reference of how the beans should (roughly) taste and you can fine tune to your own desire from that point.
> 
> ...


1:2 is dependent on your tastes, beans grinder etc but it's a good basis to start from. I think for now Phil you should stick to this ratio until you're feeling a bit more confident and satisfied your getting it. There's so many variables to play with, having a something consistent to aim for is helpful in this early stage of your coffee 'journey'


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Here is the grinder setting. I hope it means something to you


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

The setting wont mean anything, maybe look at getting a gauge by timmyj on here, helps you keep track of grind settings for different beans


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

MWJB said a "grind setting would be nice", this is all I have


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

To be fair, that pic does say a fair bit. You can see how many notches it is from zero (although we don't know the burr 'zero point'; in addition, it appears to be bang on the 'reference point' arrow on the sticker as I'm led to believe that's what the factory recommend as a start point isn't it?

If that is getting you your desired brew ratio in roughly the right timescale (ratio being more important than the time), I would only make small adjustments in the order of one 'notch' or ridge at a time. And keep the weight in the basket as close to the same every time as you can - half a gram either way will make a surprising difference to flow rate. Hence why everyone goes on about jewelery scales. Hope that helps.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

But thats my current setting and burr zero is about 5pm (eg where the number 7 is) for other people it's in other places.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Phil66 said:


> MWJB said a "grind setting would be nice", this is all I have


I meant with reference to your own shots & grinder, it won't mean much to anyone else.


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## timmyjj21 (May 10, 2015)

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?26580-FOR-SALE-Laser-Cut-Mazzer-SJ-Grind-Gauges&p=348674#post348674

I didn't want to intrude earlier, but it looks like a gauge would help you out?


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks Timmy, They look great. How do you utilise them? It's obvious how to use them but how do you get your reference point etc?

Hello everyone else, and Timmy







:

On another note, I've been at Kew Gardens today, went into one of the food and drink places and went to the drink section. Watched the "barista" there, they had a Super Jolly but with a cone on the front, not a doser like mine. He took the portafilter out and tamped it within about 3 seconds







. The tamp was in and out like lightening with grinds flying out of the portafilter. Then he pulled the shot while doing the milk. He looked very attentive whilst steaming the milk but the espresso was churning out some very light brown liquid, it must have been coming out for well over 30 seconds. He did some lovely art though and certainly didn't rush it, you could see he had pride in his artwork. What do you think about what I saw? I ordered two teas by the way







I think I would learn something from your comments.

Cheers

Phil


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I think he probably was making bad espresso







... but i didnt taste it . What did you think

What beans were they using


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Couldn't see what beans they were, they were in yellowy/orange plastic bags. Decaf was preground.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

You ordered two teas? So no try of the coffee?

Obviously a barista working in high volume, rather than third wave coffee shop is going to run fast through tasks, and a pro barista is going to run faster than you- they produce hundreds of cups a day, which speeds and streamlines things.

Sitting and watching the espresso if his machine is properly set and his set up right is unnecessary, he's doing the same thing again and again, he should have reliable repeatability...

I've seen all sorts of horror working in high volume coffee, but also people who take the effort to set up well and produce the best they can in the time, and with the products they have.


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## timmyjj21 (May 10, 2015)

In reference to the gauge: It won't help you find the correct spot initially, but by numbering everything, and having a scale corresponding to 1/2 a 'notch' on the adjustment collar edge, it allows you to remember a number and easily get back this or use it as a reference. Very useful for changing between bean types and roast levels but particularly in your instance it assists changing the grind by a tiny increment more accurately.


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

Yeh the gauge is invaluable for the SJ, saves a lot of waste trying to dial in beans, just need to keep a note of the grind for each bean.


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Missy said:


> You ordered two teas? So no try of the coffee?
> 
> Obviously a barista working in high volume, rather than third wave coffee shop is going to run fast through tasks, and a pro barista is going to run faster than you- they produce hundreds of cups a day, which speeds and streamlines things.
> 
> ...


Thing is, when he did just espressos, he stopped it "short" . He was more interested in the milk and the art when doing lattes and cappuccinos. I didn't go for coffee because i didn't think he was a proper barista and didn't want to get more confused









Cheers

Phil


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Phil66 said:


> I've been at Kew Gardens today,
> 
> they had a Super Jolly but with a cone on the front, not a doser like mine.
> 
> ...


1. I love Kew Gardens! Easy to spend a whole day there just chilling. Have only eaten in the Orangery once, but had a cold drink! That place is really a food place that does coffees rather than a speciality coffee bar with food, so I would tone down expectations accordingly. Just the fact that they have espresso at all makes it a cut above many very good restaurants to be fair.

2. It's very busy in there and I'm slightly surprised they are 'only' using a Super Jolly - thought they'd be using a Major at least. The 'cone' instead of doser is how Mazzer do their on demand electronic dosing. It is denoted by the -E suffix.

3. Nothing wrong with doing the milk while the shot is pouring so long as you're keeping an eye on the shot! Not so good if you let it run too long though as it will end up thin and bitter. Some machines cut off automatically but if not then he needs to have one eye on the shot for sure.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

A cone on the front is a doser funnel. Super Jollys don't come with that. It was most likely a major or a royal.

Unless modified


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Maybe it wasn't a Super Jolly, I'm a complete newbie but here's one with a cone


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Anyway , hoe is your coffee making experience coming along @Phil66 ?


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

OK thanks Mrboots, got the basics sorted, doing fairly consistent tamps, always comes out of both spouts. I dose a volume now as I know where the line is for 36 grams. I want to be able to know when the shot is good to stop by eye so I can choose straight into two cups, if it's uneven I will give my wife the cup with the least coffee in, she likes it mild.

Waiting for a new jug, mine isn't big enough to do enough milk for two.

Cheers


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Don't get into stopping by eye as some kind of aspiration . You are just using s less accurate measure .. Use scales . You will never be accurate or consistent enough . I know you see lots of clips and it looks natural and Cool but scales is the way to coffee nirvana . That is the most important piece of info you will ever get . See it before " I used to weight - I don't know my coffee tastes bad help me " .

There is no uniform stopping point for all coffees by eye , by time or by colour . As different coffee will need a different recipe etc

Have fun


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks,

I had been reading about the "blonding point" as an indicator of when to stop. I've never been in a dedicated coffee shop but I've never seen scales being used in a code shop I've been in. Is it an esoteric method to use scales? When in a hurry can you get a decent shot without weighing ? If weighing into a shot glass and making two mild coffees from a double shot should you stir the espresso before sharing into the two cups?

Thanks for your help everyone


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Phil66 said:


> Thanks,
> 
> I had been reading about the "blonding point" as an indicator of when to stop. I've never been in a dedicated coffee shop but I've never seen scales being used in a code shop I've been in. Is it an esoteric method to use scales? When in a hurry can you get a decent shot without weighing ? If weighing into a shot glass and making two mild coffees from a double shot should you stir the espresso before sharing into the two cups?
> 
> Thanks for your help everyone


Have you been to many shops where they guzzle up the best part of a 250g bag in an attempt to make your shot?  Shops dial in at the start of the day, often using volumetric machines to deliver consistent cups.

It doesn't take any more time to weigh, than not.

Forget blonding point, use weight/ratio & taste. You usually need some of that blonde output to balance the shot.

You can get little jugs/'shot pots' that make splitting a shot into 2 cups easier, yes stir them and also split between the cups incrementally, a bit in the first, a bit in the second etc. Or, use a forked PF spout if you can fit both cups on the scales at the same time.


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

Don't get caught up with the blonding thing, it's just not a reliable method. Weigh, it's what all the good places do. It's not an esoteric thing, it shows an understanding of how good coffee is made


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

You are not a cafe ... You will make less shots in a lifetime than a barista will in a week


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Just made my best yet







16g>[email protected] The espresso started coming out of both spouts at exactly the same time and I got the milk pretty fine foamed too. Then I went and poured it into a cold mug aaaaarrrggghhhh. I always forget something, it tasted nice to me though


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Well done - there's nothing like dialling it in for the first time - ( well actually there are other things) but how did it taste ?


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Wasn't too bitter, hint of toffee and er oh yes, coffee. Hopefully my palette will improve to detect lemons, peat and sawdust over time


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Phil66 said:


> Wasn't too bitter, hint of toffee and er oh yes, coffee. Hopefully my palette will improve to detect lemons, peat and sawdust over time


I often get "hint of damp dog" in my coffee when its been raining


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

is that at a National Trust?


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Phil66 said:


> is that at a National Trust?


Not quite, but very near Ruffod Old Hall, and in my defence I'm drinking hot chocolate, it often saves disappointment after you start brewing your own?


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Ahh, the tray is the same as NT ones


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

The number one thing:


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Phil66 said:


> The number one thing:


By George i think he's got it


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

How long have I been telling you? Weigh your f#£&ing yield


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Phil66 said:


> How long have I been telling you? Weigh your f#£&ing yield


Two weeks and 73 posts later!! Ffs!!!!


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)




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