# Price difference on green beans



## essex_mummy

Hello,

I have been reading up and watching youtube videos on home roasting, all ready to give it a go with my new popcorn maker and green beans from Rave but I was just wondering about the price differences on the green bean suppliers I've come across. At the lower cost end seems to be Rave and Bella Barista and on the higher end hasbeen and a couple of amazon suppliers with coffeecompass somewhere in the middle, all claim to be good quality. So my question is, are the higher cost beans worth paying the extra for?


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## Mrboots2u

Not all greens are the same . Not all beans are the same . Some greens will be exclusive to a roaster through direct supply for example . That roaster will have developed and put time and effort into the farm with the farmer . As a first timer tho rave - coffee compass etc won't be a bad starting point . When you got the skills and some more consistent feat to roast with then perhaps think about had bean . At the other end Some beans ( at the ultra cheap end ) may be more commodity grade quality than specialty ( as I suspect some of your Amazon ones will be ) or old crops . So again the cheapest might not always be the best .


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## The Systemic Kid

With a popcorn roaster, you won't be able to achieve a consistent roast profile nor draw out the time around first crack and beyond which is key to getting the best flavours out of the bean. So, I would stick to the cheaper beans.


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## DavecUK

essex_mummy said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have been reading up and watching youtube videos on home roasting, all ready to give it a go with my new popcorn maker and green beans from Rave but I was just wondering about the price differences on the green bean suppliers I've come across. At the lower cost end seems to be Rave and Bella Barista and on the higher end hasbeen and a couple of amazon suppliers with coffeecompass somewhere in the middle, all claim to be good quality. So my question is, are the higher cost beans worth paying the extra for?


That's a very difficult question and does depend on a number of factors.


Some companies want to make more profit than others, so it is possible for beans of superior quality to be sold for less than green beans that are not as good. All this depends on the profit margin

Define "good quality" what does that actually mean?

Price sometimes does not reflect quality but rarity, this can be true for even modestly priced beans e.g. if there is a shortage of MM or Harrar Longberry, prices will go up. Shortages can often be accompanied by reduced quality (weather conditions).

Sometimes there are hidden gems and a bean that is cheap can be fantastic if it's a first time import. I have taken an "educated" chance before and had some great coffees, that 1 year later when people realised how good they were almost tripled in price.

Just because a coffee is really expensive, doesn't make it nice

Expensive or cheap, much of the taste is down to the roasting

Some coffees can be quite variable in quality, not just from year to year, but within individual batches/shipments/bags


You have a popcorn popper, this is a good way to rapidly turn any green coffee into crap. Better and expensive beans are not really going to make much difference here, so you might as well buy cheaper beans and stick to common washed coffees (Some Brazilians Colombians etc..) as they at least take abused a little better than dry processed or pulped natural. With a popcorn popper you are not going to get flavours coming even close to the average online roaster with commercial equipment...when I say not close, I really mean, not close.

By all means give it a go and start to learn, but do it with the cheaper beans. Once you start getting the hang of it, invest in a little more expensive kit to roast in e.g. a Genecafe (power control it if you can) or similar.


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## essex_mummy

Many thanks for all the replies, will give it a try later


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## essex_mummy

First attempt - first crack came around 3.50 and I decanted at 5 minutes, feedback / constructive comments appreciated.

Moisture loss was only 12%

Beans were Rave Ethiopian Sidamo2


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## Rob1

Have you done any control mods to your popcorn popper?

You can buy some cheap beans from smallbatchroasting.co.uk

I bought a few kg of Peru MCM Monejules from them. I haven't tried them yet but I believe they're the cheapest they have to offer. I suspect they are the same ones Game of Coffee roast to sell on eBay.

They've recently taken a shipment of micro lots and specials:


Pre-OrderPanama Volcan Janson Estate Geisha Varietal89 £ 429.003Cuban Serrano Lavado, Cumanayagua84 £ 69.14Arriving Soon0Dominican Republic - Barahhona - A82 £ 81.662Ethiopia Natural Yirgacheffe G1 Wenago90 £ 118.023Ethiopia Natural Sidamo G1 Guji89 £ 111.63Arriving Soon0Costa Rica Frailes Red Honey - Palmichal Micro Mill86 £ 87.296El Salvador Santa Leticia Red Bourbon85 £ 83.016Colombia Scr 19 UP Finca Sofia88 £ 53.768Colombia Sierra Nevada De Santa Marta Moutains FT/O88 £ 74.45

The number left of the coffee is the number of 10kg bags they have available. The number next to the price is the cupping score. As others have said though, you won't get the best out of anything using a popper.

10kg will likely be a little much but if you sign up for their newsletter you get access to a list of partial bags at reduced prices.


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## essex_mummy

Oh fantastic thanks Rob - I will sign up for that, nope not modded the popper - I was only going to remove the safety cut-out device if that became an issue, I will now google for what other modifications people have made to poppers.

I'm starting to think that I should have roasted them for longer, looking at online images and comparing mine.


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## DavecUK

essex_mummy said:


> First attempt - first crack came around 3.50 and I decanted at 5 minutes, feedback / constructive comments appreciated.
> 
> Moisture loss was only 12%
> 
> Beans were Rave Ethiopian Sidamo2


Sidamo is a difficult bean to get right and best not attempted in a popcorn popper as you have/will find out. They don't look too good, uneven and scorched, will likely not taste great. As another has said you need to modify your popper to roast a little slower than Usain Bolt runs the 100m.


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## Rob1

You can put a dimmer in the circuit (or potentiometer) to control the power draw of the heating element. You could also put one in to control fan speed but I don't know how much use that'll be - I imagine you'll just want full fan speed all the time.


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## essex_mummy

Thank-you Dave, I was roasting 100g (as an Amazon reviewer recommended) but I will try reducing that and stirring to increase the airflow, hopefully that will help a bit with the scorching and unevenness, I also had kept the lid that came with it on which apparently isn't the best idea. (oops)

Rob, would disabling the heating element so it's just blowing cold air and using a heat gun be any good? fitting a control system sounds complicated.


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## essex_mummy

Attempt no. 2 with the lid off  first crack at 5 minutes and stopped at 8 minutes, better / worse? or the same?


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## froggystyle

I reckon you are getting as good as you are going to get with an un-modded popcorn maker.....

Either look at mods or if you want to get into home roasting at a better level have a look for a second hand Gene Cafe.


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## DavecUK

essex_mummy said:


> Attempt no. 2 with the lid off  first crack at 5 minutes and stopped at 8 minutes, better / worse? or the same?


I have to echo what @froggystyle says, I don't think your going to get much better than that unmodified.....I would not want to drink either roast and I don't think you will enjoy them either. It sounds like you are determined to home roast (which is great). The advice to get a used Gene is a good one and you will have a lot better experience overall.


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## essex_mummy

Well I will taste it tomorrow - and readup some more on the modifications tonight, I would love to find a used Gene but no joy on here, ebay or gumtree- and the new ones that are on ebay are a bit costly.


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## froggystyle

Bella Barista for new ones, best price i believe on the web.

Put a wanted ad up maybe someone has one knocking around they no longer use...


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## Rob1

There are tutorials guiding you through the process of modifying a popcorn popper online (sweet Maria's most likely)


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## froggystyle

Home roasters forum in the usofa has a shed load of info on popcorn roasting...


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## Step21

essex_mummy said:


> Rob, would disabling the heating element so it's just blowing cold air and using a heat gun be any good? fitting a control system sounds complicated.


You can get good results with a heat gun. I use the heat gun/dogbowl method. I wouldn't use it in conjunction with the popper. I use a metal sieve (more or less a small metal pan with holes only at the bottom not the sides) which I agitate with one hand while holding the heat gun with the other. You would be advised to do this outside or in the garage due to chaff and smoke. I have a popper but I decided not to try roasting in it as it needs modding and few regard it as a decent way to roast. Some folks use the heat gun with a breadmaker which agitates the beans via the dough paddle and add all sorts of mods to it. While you are waiting for a proper roaster the heat gun is a decent option for experimenting with.


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## essex_mummy

Thanks Step21, I've just watched the heat-gun / metal bowl video's on youtube and that does seem easier than modifying the popper, so after trying my popper beans tomorrow - and just for fun I have some union beans to do the pepsi challenge with - then I will try the heat gun method.


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## essex_mummy

My coffee was awful :-(


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## Rob1

There are other methods like a whirley pop style pan for use on the hob, and with a thermometer in there you'd have some idea of environmental temp. You could also use a wok and stir constantly. Some people on this forum have a little ceramic thing to put the beans in and presumably rotate it over a gas ring. None of those methods are going to best a proper roaster though, especially if you want repeatable results.


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## Step21

Rob1 said:


> None of those methods are going to best a proper roaster though, especially if you want repeatable results.


This is no doubt the case. However, to get these good repeatable results with a "proper" roaster there is a significant financial outlay and learning curve. It's not quite press the button and hey presto. There seems to be a fair bit of modding with proper home roasters just as with popcorn makers. Each proper home roaster seems to have different strengths/weaknesses and tricks you have to learn. You will have to try various profiles to get one you like, so there is a fair bit of bean wastage, especially with bigger capacity 1kg roasters.

The advantage of these simple manual techniques is that they cost very little and can teach you a lot. Each will have its learning curve and wastage that goes with it until you gain some experience and confidence. But if a roast goes wrong it's only a small amount of beans going to waste. The disadvantage is that you can't really exploit different profiles that need accurate temperature monitoring. So, it will only be by chance that you get top results. But you can get very good results, just not repeatable. It's also fun to do and extremely satisfying when you get a great roast.

For example, from a 450g bag of greens, i will get 5 chances with 90g heat gun roasts. Based on the experience i have gained using this method 1 of these roasts will be superb (IMO), 2 very decent and 2 just ok. All a bit different and all very drinkable and demonstrating different facets of the bean. By the time the bag is done i'm ready for a different bean.

I don't see any proper unmodded home roaster currently on the market that brings significant benefit for low volume roasting.


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## DavecUK

OP Have a read of this, much of it written a long time ago, but a lot still very relevant.

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/home-roastingd:home-roastingd


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## Wuyang

essex_mummy said:


> View attachment 21951
> 
> 
> First attempt - first crack came around 3.50 and I decanted at 5 minutes, feedback / constructive comments appreciated.
> 
> Moisture loss was only 12%
> 
> Beans were Rave Ethiopian Sidamo2


Havent read the entire thread so this may have been mentioned already, but was wondering what popper are you using.

I use a severin popcorn popper....think it's German or German design.....anyway it's had some good reviews on Amazon regarding coffee roasting. I'm no expert, but the beans I have been roasting haven't turned out awful and have been as good as many I have purchased from shop roasters when I have used the beans for lattes.

I can't comment on how inferior my popcorn roasts would be for espresso or other black drinks.

My first crack is around 4-5 min, second about 10. I have noticed when mine hits second crack little round flat pieces of the coffee bean fly off...odd, but I know little about roasting and like you probably working to a budget.

Regarding green beans.....I found the most reasonable price is Coffee Compass,.....they do a few offers, but I find the best deal is 3 x 1 kg bags = £20 plus postage, they say these are from a glut and good quality beans and as such tell you where the are from, but not the farm. I find these are a good balance between quality and a restricted budget.

I will post you a pic of the beans I roasted yesterday......., I generally roast 100g at a time.


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## Wuyang

DavecUK said:


> I have to echo what @froggystyle says, I don't think your going to get much better than that unmodified.....I would not want to drink either roast and I don't think you will enjoy them either. It sounds like you are determined to home roast (which is great). The advice to get a used Gene is a good one and you will have a lot better experience overall.


DaveUK..... I can see where you are coming from, but I can achieve better results from than those pics from my popper......it's just I have to defend them as personally I can't afford anything much better and mine is unmodded and I do get a better roast......but I do agree I would love the gene. I will post a pic of my beans roasted yesterday....I know not perfect.....but not too bad,,,,,,but I do have soooooo much to learn.


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## Robbo

@Wuyang This looks like a very even roast. How do they taste compared to what coffee compass offer (roasted) with the same beans?


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## Wuyang

Robbo said:


> @Wuyang This looks like a very even roast. How do they taste compared to what coffee compass offer (roasted) with the same beans?


I couldn't tell you. When I had my espresso machine all I can really say is my lattes were as good as any other fresh beans I had bought.....and better in some cases.

I Think it's sweetmarias on you tube do that do a decent popper demonstration and recommend them as well.

Im currently on brewed at the minute...

I only seem to read of poppers getting pulled down on here.....saying you need the American poppers 1/2 etc....and need loads of mods etc.

The thing is I find roasting coffee good fun about 100g at a time 4-5 mins first crack......8-10 second crack....brilliant.

There are loads of reviews on Amazon regarding the severin popper been used for roasting coffee.....some of these people have gone through loads of poppers before settling on the severin. Wouldn't be without mine.


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## Vieux Clou

When I was using a popper I used to give the beans 8 minutes in the oven at 160-180°C before decanting them into the popper. That gave me time to get the popper up to about the same heat every time, usually 200-220°C. I got quite good results with El Fuego & Huehuetenango (Guatemala) and Izuba (Burundi), not so great with Bob-O-Link or other Brazilians. Sidamo was OK as well.

If you put the beans into the oven on a sheet of alu foil with 3 edges turned up, and that on a baking sheet for support, then when your 8 minutes are up you can lift the alu by the edges without gloves and slide the contents into the popper quite easily. If you leave the popper running (which I did, to maintain temperature), you do get a fountain of chaff but what the hell, it's fun. Note to the thrifty: with care, your sheet of alu foil will last for months.

I did a photo gallery at the time: http://www.pbase.com/johnewing/coffee_roast


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## emin-j

This is one one of my first efforts,

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?4724-Startup-Kit&p=25895#post25895


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## Wuyang

I find quantity in the popper can be important.


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## essex_mummy

Hi Wuyang, it was a Severin machine that i was using, but clearly you get way better results!

so i thought i'd give the heat-gun method a go today - beans were Old Brown Java from coffeebeanshop first crack was around 3.45 it still seemed to be cracking at 5.15 - can anyone tell me if that's still 1st crack? and I stopped it at 5.30


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## Wuyang

Sounds like first crack......second crack not as loud.


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## Wuyang

essex_mummy said:


> Hi Wuyang, it was a Severin machine that i was using, but clearly you get way better results!
> 
> so i thought i'd give the heat-gun method a go today - beans were Old Brown Java from coffeebeanshop first crack was around 3.45 it still seemed to be cracking at 5.15 - can anyone tell me if that's still 1st crack? and I stopped it at 5.30
> 
> View attachment 22110


What I'm doing with severin.....

Machine outside on floor....100g added.

..I leave with no side or top on for a while....unless beans flying out....some types seem to fly out early.

..I use a long handled wooden porridge spoon and stir to mix beans way from edge and bottom every now and again while still running.

..After a couple of minutes I add the plastic side piece....I leave top off

..First crack around four mins...ish

..Now as the beans get more lively I hold the popper....with the shoot facing me I tilt it back....this stops the beans flying out as much and I think circulates them better.

..Take out when your ready.

.. After first crack if you add the lid it will take them to second crack quicker.

.. For brewed I'm preferring them before second crack and don't add lid.

..I tip beans out into flat bottomed bowl......and float bowl in sink that has a couple of inches of cold water in it to cool beans ( not saying this is right it's just what I do ).

I did a batch the other day that looked terrible...not sure what I did wrong...might had added the wrong quantity, but usually roasts consistent.

I have found some times in second crack you find little discs of the bean surface flying off.

Stick with the severin, try following above......looking at the colour of your beans above I would say still first crack, mine usually darker at second crack.....

Let us know how you get on. Remember the temp outside and how windy can affect roast time,,,,,,I don't mind a breeze seems to stop it roasting too quickly.


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## essex_mummy

Well i thought i would give the same beans a whirl in the popper, again 1st crack seemed to be around 3.30 and I stopped at 5.30


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## essex_mummy

popcorn roaster on left, heat-gun on right


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## Wuyang

Getting better with the popper...try keep lid off though...unless just for pic. Try different techniques to slow time down.

Did you do as I did above?


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## essex_mummy

Sadly I didn't see your post until after I'd had a go with the popcorn machine, next time I will try to follow them. Taste test tomorrow.


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## essex_mummy

Only tried the heat gun beans so far but I call that an improvement on the first batch.


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## Rob1

Out of curiosity, how do the beans look on the inside when split in 2?


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## Step21

What was your batch size? 3.45 seems way too fast.

I typically do 90g batches with the heat gun and 1st crack on average is starting at 9 mins. If your heat gun has variable control try lowering the heat or alternatively holding the gun further away from the beans. With a very short roast time you are unlikely to get the bean properly roasted all the way through. Also keep agitating the beans - there is quite a lot of unevenness of colour there. Best to chuck out any that are too light as they are unlikely to be roasted and will affect the taste.

Good 1st shot though! I fried my first batch in a similar timeframe to you.


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## essex_mummy

It was around 90g, the heat gun was brand new and i was holding it quite close to the beans, (i read something about holding it an inch away).

I'm just trying the popper roasted beans they taste a bit better than the heat gun ones.

So next time i will try and slow things down using the tips above


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## Stevebee

One method you could look into is using the heat gun with an old or second hand breadmaker. The breadmaker is used to constantly stir the beans. The bread pan in mine is insulated with a fire blanket, covered with a metal baking tray with a hole cut for the gun and a "viewing " hole which can be covered. I used an old empty tin screwed to the tray to support the heat gun so it stays in position without me holding it. It's best if the heat gun has variable temps (mine is 1-10). I also have 2 thermocouples drilled through the back of the BM into the pan, one in the bean mass one half way up for environment temp. These can be linked to a laptop which runs the free Artisan roasting software so can see the roasting curve in real time. If you search Coretto Roast you will find lots of info. The roast can vary between 9:00 and 13:00 mins depending on the gun setting and it easy to control the period post first crack. The curves attained are typical Scott Rao with a declining ROR and a Dev time of 20%-25%.

To cool them I attach a vacuum cleaner to the bottom of a bucket with a pasta stainer inserted in the lid. The vacuum pulls air through the beans and they are ambient in about 1:30.

The typical batch size is between 250 and 350g. I do 330g as the net weight fits nicely into valves coffee bags.

With my blind tasting this method can produce some excellent roasts with 90% of the cost coming from the thermocouples.


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## Wuyang

Stevebee said:


> One method you could look into is using the heat gun with an old or second hand breadmaker. The breadmaker is used to constantly stir the beans. The bread pan in mine is insulated with a fire blanket, covered with a metal baking tray with a hole cut for the gun and a "viewing " hole which can be covered. I used an old empty tin screwed to the tray to support the heat gun so it stays in position without me holding it. It's best if the heat gun has variable temps (mine is 1-10). I also have 2 thermocouples drilled through the back of the BM into the pan, one in the bean mass one half way up for environment temp. These can be linked to a laptop which runs the free Artisan roasting software so can see the roasting curve in real time. If you search Coretto Roast you will find lots of info. The roast can vary between 9:00 and 13:00 mins depending on the gun setting and it easy to control the period post first crack. The curves attained are typical Scott Rao with a declining ROR and a Dev time of 20%-25%.
> 
> To cool them I attach a vacuum cleaner to the bottom of a bucket with a pasta stainer inserted in the lid. The vacuum pulls air through the beans and they are ambient in about 1:30.
> 
> The typical batch size is between 250 and 350g. I do 330g as the net weight fits nicely into valves coffee bags.
> 
> With my blind tasting this method can produce some excellent roasts with 90% of the cost coming from the thermocouples.


Thanks for posting this....something I would like to to try sometime in the near future....sounds good.

Im not really up on the tech info though......ROR Dev time etc though....

Look forward to trying this....cheers


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## essex_mummy

So following Wuyang's instructions above i increased time to 1st crack to 4.30 - i think 2nd crack started at 7 mins so i stopped it there.


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## essex_mummy

there's a vintage french coffee roaster on ebay ending shortly - stop bidding people i want it


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## DavecUK

essex_mummy said:


> So following Wuyang's instructions above i increased time to 1st crack to 4.30 - i think 2nd crack started at 7 mins so i stopped it there.
> View attachment 22168


Hmm...don't think 2nd crack really started...I think another roast to chalk up to experience.


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## Wuyang

Essex.....looks a bit uneven....strange.

im going through a bit of a bad period with my coffee at the moment.......don't know if it's my roasting/ beans etc....or not resting enough....although for brewed I don't think you have to really rest, but I'm getting a real strange under taste to the coffee.


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