# Weighing shots



## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Ok,

so I've moved this to a new thread so that David can have his original questions answered. For those who don't know, I was asking how much my shot should weigh when dosing 18g of coffee.

the answers have been varied but the general thought is that I should be getting 27-35g in 25-27 seconds

so anyway, I went ahead and tried this for the first time... Before this, I was getting 2oz in 27 seconds give or take. My first result wasn't good I have to say. I dosed my usual 18g, tamped at my normal pressure and timed my shot which was sitting on my digital scales.

I quickly watched the weight shoot up to 29g in 14 seconds!! I looked to see how much coffee I was getting and realised that there was just over 1oz in total. I conceded that I must have made an error and flicked the switch to continue to the 2oz mark. Total weight of the 2oz shot was around 60g. It appears that I'm currently getting 1g to 1ml ratio.

so if I tighten the grind I'll assume that the time will slow and the weight will gain at a slower pace? That's all well and good but am I right in thinking I'll still be getting around 27ml in return? If so.... Not a lot of coffee is it!?!?


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Ok a few things:

What are you measuring volume with? The little free glasses you get with most things these days actually have their marker line nearer the 1.2oz level. This means you're probably getting near 70ml of fluid.

A double espresso could realistically be as little as 30ml or 1fl oz depending on ratio, and personal taste. Most of my 18g shots come out at about the 1.2-1.5oz mark give or take.

In reality, as much as I tried to fight it. Weight is a better indicator. 18g in, 25g out, 25 seconds or so, is my general formula, but this is open to variation and you will need to find out what works for you. For me, taking 18g to 28g just feels like too much, and I don't enjoy the end result.

Try weighing, taste your results, see what you like.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Or...

Adjust to taste, THEN weigh your shots for consistency.

Other peoples recipes might not necessarily suit your tastebuds.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Hey Tony

I've never pulled shots by weight, although I've weighed shots after pulling by volume and have had similar results i.e. 45-55g plus from 17g dose.

I may well give it go to see what the results are like.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Glenn said:


> Or... Adjust to taste, THEN weigh your shots for consistency. Other peoples recipes might not necessarily suit your tastebuds.


Wise advice indeed. Taste is what it is all about. Formulas are useful guidelines but that's all they are.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

shrink said:


> Weight is a better indicator. 18g in, 25g out, 25 seconds or so, is my general formula, but this is open to variation and you will need to find out what works for you. For me, taking 18g to 28g just feels like too much, and I don't enjoy the end result.


How much volume of liquid do you get with this on a 25 sec shot?

From Tonys benchmark would you go finer or coarser to get the 25 sec lighter shot?


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Espresso is a short intense pick me up (with lots of great flavour and mouthfeel) so I get confused when people are looking for a larger volume drink. If you prefer something to last longer then try an americano. That being said the desirable volume for a double will be between 1 and 2oz, typically around 1.5oz. Weighing is the best way not only to add consistency but also to dial in to your own tastes, we all have different end goals, without measuring what you are doing you will never get there.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> How much volume of liquid do you get with this on a 25 sec shot?
> 
> From Tonys benchmark would you go finer or coarser to get the 25 sec lighter shot?


No idea accurately, but I'd suggest nearer 1.2oz on most of my shots. I tend not to measure volume. I do most shots by eye once I've got the grind right. Tony needs to tighten up his grind considerably in my opinion, as he seems to be getting enormous volumes of fluid, which will likely result in weak and bitter shots.

My process when dialling in a new bean is this (and I must stress, this is just how I do it, and may not work for everyone)

-guesstimate the grind based on roast level compared to previous bean

-weigh input, so between 17.5-18.5g give or take. Actual input doesn't need to be perfect to the last nth as long as its consistent.

-pull a shot and weigh it, watching for blonding and aiming for 25 seconds.

-taste shot.

From here I can do several things:

-if it pulled too fast I can tighten up the grind

-if it went blonde on time but wasn't enough weight, I could up dose while grinding just a touch coarser. Etc etc.

I'd make the adjustment I needed to and then pull another shot.

Once I know what works for that bean, I tend to just weigh input and stick to a certain shot time. Weighing on the way in is dead easy. Weighing output is useful as a sanity check and to create a measure, but I don't do it for every shot.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I'm going to be pulling my first shots next week so this is all valuable stuff.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I think it's easy to lose track of the variables and its why weighing makes some sense. It seems like faff but it does encourage consistency. Once you have consistency down, and are getting frequently excellent shots, then it's easier to start going on instinct rather than measuring every variable.

It's almost like photography. Until you know the relationships between aperture, shutter speed, ISO, focal length, depth of field and how they affect your shot, you'd just be guessing and hoping to get it right. Once you understand all the variables properly, it's easier to control them with judgement rather than constant measurements.

Same with espresso. Once you finally get in tune with every aspect (temperature, pump pressure, grind, tamp, weight, dosing, blonding, preinfusion etc) and how it changes your shot, it's easier to make changes on the hoof.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

shrink said:


> It's almost like photography. Until you know the relationships between aperture, shutter speed, ISO, focal length, depth of field and how they affect your shot, you'd just be guessing and hoping to get it right. Once you understand all the variables properly, it's easier to control them with judgement rather than constant measurements.
> 
> Same with espresso. Once you finally get in tune with every aspect (temperature, pump pressure, grind, tamp, weight, dosing, blonding, preinfusion etc) and how it changes your shot, it's easier to make changes on the hoof.


Good comparison between coffee making and photography. In the coffee making stakes I'm still at the Pentax K1000 stage&#8230;crooked pucks ahoy!


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I'm sorry to say that I'm much further ahead in the photoghraphy stakes than I am coffee









But I think my slightly OCD need to understand all the elements of what is going on means I'm getting there. The photography is now pure instinct.

That said, I better get practising, got a wedding come up!!!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Weighing is brilliant for dialling-in. Its also brilliant for sharing and replicating recipes.

Once dialled-in and happy with the taste (which is the most important thing) its just a case of repeating everything and no real need to re-weigh. However various factors might mean siginificant grind changes are needed throughout the day, in which case weighing again might be needed.

High end machines , with volumetrics, make it easier to retain consistancy


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## truecksuk (Sep 22, 2011)

When dialling in, do you guys actually manage to get variables spot on with each shot?

ie. 17g = 26-28g coffee in 25-30 secs?

Its probably my inconsistent technique (and lately my grinder) but I seem to get shots that sometimes come out in perfect order, but then the next shot is WAY off! How can a shot that come out in 25secs, then go on and come out in 1min?! Its got to be the inconsistency in grind?

My technique is always the same!


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

If your grind is dodgy then this will affect distribution and this in turn could throw your tamp off.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

truecksuk said:


> When dialling in, do you guys actually manage to get variables spot on with each shot?
> 
> ie. 17g = 26-28g coffee in 25-30 secs?


Is this a good starting point? I'm getting a bit confused with all the numbers in this thread. Won't be starting with my machine for this first time till next week so now is a good time to get things ironed out.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2


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## truecksuk (Sep 22, 2011)

It is indeed. Again, as the guys said, it can vary depending on your coffee and taste preference.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

truecksuk said:


> When dialling in, do you guys actually manage to get variables spot on with each shot?
> 
> ie. 17g = 26-28g coffee in 25-30 secs?
> 
> ...


If the coffee is properly rested then I can get shots within 1g output for the same dose & time. However after a few hours humidity levels might have changed in the kitchen (washing machine/oven/weather etc) and then grind setting might need a tiny tweek


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

I personally think volume is a very misleading measure, especially when you consider the crema can vary so much.

I weigh in and weigh most of the time on the way out.

21-22g in, 36-42g out. The magic 1.6 ratio suggests around 35g for what I dose. I have to tell myself not to let it overrun as the amount of liquid seems so little!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Gangstarrrrr said:


> The magic 1.6 ratio suggests around 35g for what I dose. I have to tell myself not to let it overrun as the amount of liquid seems so little!


Indeed, the object is to get a good/preferable level of extraction, rather than a specific volume out. If the extraction is good, the flavour will reflect this, volume can then be adjusted by bypassing (dilution) if required...which will make it weaker/less concentrated, but retain the flavour profile.


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Sorry for the late reply... 16hr days at work!! Joy..

anyway, I'm using a rattle ware shot pitcher which measures 3oz total volume.

I understand the concept behind weighing shots a little more but find it difficult due to the difference in opinion. My current technique returns 2oz in 27 seconds but that weighs around 60g. I find most of those double shots to be pleasant and palatable so tightening the grind to return less volume seems out of the norm....but I'll give it a go


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

You mustn't have much crema then cos when I use that rattleware jug I get about 30g from 2oz

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Here you go. 18g in and 25g out of Rave Italian job. Plus its the end of the bag so the crema has settled down a bit by now. It's just shy of the 2oz mark. I think lots of people worry too much about getting lots of espresso out. Focus on taste. If you want more, make two. Haha!


















Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

chimpsinties said:


> Here you go. 18g in and 25g out of Rave Italian job. Plus its the end of the bag so the crema has settled down a bit by now. It's just shy of the 2oz mark. I think lots of people worry too much about getting lots of espresso out. Focus on taste. If you want more, make two. Haha!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Isn't that a ristretto? (Not that it maters as such, just wondering).


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

autopilot said:


> Isn't that a ristretto? (Not that it maters as such, just wondering).


You could call it that, if you wanted....or not.

The traditional names (Normale/Lungo/Ristretto) are more relevant in the context of traditional espresso (perhaps as described by Ernesto Illy), however with lighter roasts, SO beans/less generic blends & focus on extracting a sweeter ~18-22% yield, normal shots tend to be shorter.

Chimpsinties gets 25g from 18g dose, so 70%/1:1.4 brew ratio describes it better than Normale/Ristretto...if that were a ristretto then he pulled a 100%/1:1 shot what would you call that? Other than a "100%/1:1 shot" of course? ;-)

Whenever making coffee, however you do it, the general idea is to get that 18-22% yield, so for an 18g dose, 3.2g-4g of the dry grounds are dissolved and end up in the cup.

The reality is, there is no accounting for personal taste & more people try and define a single/"one size fits all" parameter for where coffee tastes best, the more questions it throws up than answers. If you like what you are doing, carry on, but explore other parameters too...then at least you know you are doing it right & not missing out on something else.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

chimpsinties said:


> Here you go. 18g in and 25g out of Rave Italian job. Plus its the end of the bag so the crema has settled down a bit by now. It's just shy of the 2oz mark.


This makes more sense now...I've been measuring shots from the bottom of the crema, which would explain why my 2oz shots were weighing over 55g. As a layman I'd have probably classed it as a Ristretto but interesting in what MWJB was said.

At least now I know what to aim for in measuring by weight and will give it wirl...... see what it tastes like.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Any tips for stopping the feet of the scales going through the drip tray holes and how to stop the scales getting wet?


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

put the scales in a zip lock bag


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I put a small cloth under the scales


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

I measure from the liquid... not the crema so maybe that explains things.

Anyway, I've just tightened things up and got the following

18g dose

26g

34 secs

volume of approx 1oz liquid

I have to say, it was nice and smooth







and probably more so than my usual coffee. I'm a little more interested to improve on this so do I need to alter anything?


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Ok, so I just wanted to keep this thread going a bit longer as I think that many people will be reading it with interest. We've had some great input from people who regularly use this approach to making coffee and I have to say that I'm slowly starting to convert!

As you can see from the picture, I've tweaked my grind and managed to get everything within the parameters that shrink suggested (correct me if I'm wrong shrink)

I have to admit that the coffee is a lot smoother and definitely provides a nicer mouth feel. It isn't bitter or sour and tastes quite sweet towards the end of the cup.

I suppose I wanted to know thoughts of anyone else and to see whether any of the people already adopting this process could advise on better methods to improve taste... Or maybe a different method? And before people say it, I know is down to individual taste but I like to be guided somewhat by those in the know.

Thanks so far


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

looks good... I think as both myself and a few others have suggested, its about finding your own recipe. the ratios that I use are just what works for me, and perhaps only a guideline. Try tweaking the ratio and taste it, see what you like. perhaps pull a little longer for added bitterness, pull shorter for something more acidic. I think you seem to be in the right ballpark though!

Once you get used to what you're putting in and what you get out, you'll be able to put the scales away and trust judgement a little more. I tend to only use scales for weighing the ground coffee going in.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Big Tony wrote: "I have to admit that the coffee is a lot smoother and definitely provides a nicer mouth feel. It isn't bitter or sour and tastes quite sweet towards the end of the cup."

Sounds like you are pretty much spot on...you could either try grinding a tad finer, to get the sweetness a little earlier & make sure you catch the last of it, or pull the shot a little longer. Stop when you are detecting some bitterness in the end of the cup & backtrack to your last setting.

I sometimes dipstick test the end of the pull (if it's cool enough to taste on your machine), catch a drop on the way out, if it's still running sweet...let it carry on, if it's just bland & lost it's sweetness you are still probably OK, but kill the shot if it's very bitter & drying.


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Thanks guys... I'd like a little more liquid if I'm honest but wouldn't like to sacrifice the smoother taste. I suppose I can either dose higher to get more 'amber nectar' or add water/milk to add volume. I liked it that much that I made myself one after the other this morning!


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

i always use at least some milk.. even if its just a piccolo









so i tend not to worry about how big my shots are


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

MWJB said:


> ...you could either try grinding a tad finer, to get the sweetness a little earlier & make sure you catch the last of it, or pull the shot a little longer. Stop when you are detecting some bitterness in the end of the cup & backtrack to your last setting.
> 
> I sometimes dipstick test the end of the pull (if it's cool enough to taste on your machine), catch a drop on the way out, if it's still running sweet...let it carry on, if it's just bland & lost it's sweetness you are still probably OK, but kill the shot if it's very bitter & drying.


Don't know whether this is still a recognised method but using an icecube tray under the spout to catch a second or so's worth in each icecube segment through the pour can let you work out by time when it is starting to go bitter, too. It takes some practise but can be a good way of understanding how the flavour changes throughout the duration of the shot.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

That's a really good idea. I might try that


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## CoffeeDoc (Dec 26, 2012)

Whilst I appreciate that this is a thread about weighing shots, and clearly need to get some scales, I can see some benefit in measuring volume. Several people have commented about the inaccuracy of some shot glasses, where can I get an accurate pair?

Thanks,

Paul


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Might be easiest to just mark a pair up yourself


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I use a 3oz rattleware jug.


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## Callum_T (Dec 23, 2012)

I've always said weighing espresso out is one of the best things I've ever done to improve the quality of what I make - (along with knowing what I've weighed in / dose)

Currently doing everything by eye because I broke my Fleabay scales and I'm finding things vary to say the least!


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Yep... I'm slowing starting to agree cam. It's a bit like drinking a sweet viscose syrupy type of coffee. Mixed with milk just makes it a lovely cup









As for measuring, I also use the rattle ware 3oz pitcher... Very good bit of kit


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## CoffeeDoc (Dec 26, 2012)

New scales arrived today, so I shall start to weigh. Hopefully things will get more consistent, at present I just get to the point of wanting to throw the machine out of the window when suddenly, and for no reason a magic coffee arrives and I then want to repeat it but rarely can!

Paul


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I have to say after using a naked pf and judging by eye/ volume and then weighing shots afterwards, all of good ones so far have been within the 1.6 brewing ratio. I.e. Approx 19g in 30g.

So I think weighing shots could be a great way for getting dialled in and then judging it from there.

I just need to find some faster ones as mine are really slow to register and keep getting wet. Any suggestions on an upgrade from my Fleebay ones.

Great suggestions on putting the scales in a zip lock bag (to keep them dry) but this interferes with the reading.


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## Callum_T (Dec 23, 2012)

http://bit.ly/138UV9J

I have these seem great don't need the 0.01 apparent resolution but it means there abit quicker to react than my older ones I dig the black and white also


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Nice scales , me thinks I may bag some of these .


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

I have the exact same ones


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