# Machine sorted - now which grinder/other questions



## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

So I think I've agreed on a sage duo temp pro (I'm gona buy a new one when in stock - I've got loads of vouchers so it's only gona cost me like £130 in cash!)

So next steps, this leaves me to buy any grinder really short of the niche.....I suppose £250ish would be all I'd want to spend......I'm gona be purely using these for the DTP, not cafetière. Will be making espresso's then into cappuccino/flat white etc (not drinking as an espresso)

- eureka mignon (which version)/baratza (which version/any other thoughts?

other things to buy -

- motta distribution tool (£25)

- dosing funnel (£8)

- scales (£20)

- coffee! 
anything I've missed ?

Further questions - there's so much I don't understand, mainly parts of machines, if people could explain I'd appreciate it



What's the difference between a Single/double basket


What's the difference between a Pressurised/non pressurised


Cleaning - what are the difference processes? What is a Shower screen/back flush, chemical/non chemical clean...I read so many things & I have no clue what people mean!


What do I need to do all these? - do people buy sage branded, what do I need for a back flush etc etc


thanks!!!


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Have a good read of the forum, theres some really good info.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

What's the difference between a Single/double basket


Size of coffee it holds



What's the difference between a Pressurised/non pressurised


Pressurised is for pre gound coffee

non pressurised is for the coffee you grind yourself



Cleaning - what are the difference processes? What is a Shower screen/back flush,


Shower screen is what sprays the water onto the coffee. On a sage its secured with an allen key its the bit you connect your portafilter to





chemical/non chemical clean...I read so many things & I have no clue what people mean!


Sage comes with cleaning solution and j structions



What do I need to do all these? - do people buy sage branded, what do I need for a back flush etc etc


See above

best thing is to have a look on the forum and YouTube theres alot of great vids

check hoons coffee for sage


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## Adam.f (Apr 9, 2020)

There is a grinder section you can take a look at, it has so much info, from different makes, what people think of them have a search around https://coffeeforums.co.uk/forum/65-grinders/


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

re pressurised vs non-pressurised, it's not strictly true that it's for whole beans vs pre-ground. Hopefully the following is a reasonable summary: simplistically, during any coffee extraction the water has to spend time in contact with the coffee grounds for the process to work. The espresso machine accomplishes this by exerting back-pressure so that the water flow is slowed in the basket for a period of time. In a non-pressurised basket all the back-pressure comes from the coffee grounds, so varies with dosage, grind size, distribution, tamp, etc. A pressurised basket is designed so that nearly all the back-pressure comes from the basket itself. You get much better 'consistency' of back-pressure, but very little to no control over the extraction. The pressurised basket is thus more forgiving of mistakes, but the trade off is very little control if the beans you are using require adjustment.

more to the point, if you get pre-ground coffee intended for a non-pressurised basket (eg from your local roaster who assumes you're using non-pressurised) then it is going to choke in a pressurised basket and be useless. you might start with pressurised but I expect you will want to switch to non-pressurised pretty quickly. if you have your own grinder i don't know why you'd want to use pressurised.

re gear, you obviously need the grinder and imo the scales. i would not get the baratza encore (which i have) or the virtuoso, imo even for a beginner like me it doesn't have quite the fine control over grind size that you want for espresso (or even latte, which is what i do). it's fine but you will probably want to upgrade sooner rather than later. maybe a Sage Grinder Pro has better fine control? i think once you're into the £300+ range for a new grinder you want to be sure you're not going to want to upgrade it any time soon...the niche is sat there at £500 and allegedly outperforming everything else in its price bracket.

i have these scales, have done me fine so far: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Triton-Rechargeable-Precision-Pocket-Scales/dp/B078XNQGJM/.

dosing funnel is also optional, how useful it is probably depends on which grinder you end up getting. i have the edesia express one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/53mm-Coffee-Grinder-Dosing-Funnel/dp/B07SLYCCRR. it prevents a lot of mess, but it leaves a gap around the inside of the portafilter where it was sitting which is a slight annoyance. there are stainless steel ones on amazon but they weigh 200+g...i find handling the portafilter/baskets pretty fiddly, if you drop one of those heavy funnels it will do a lot of damage to your worktop or foot.

distribution tool you can do without to start with (though atm i find mine very useful), CocoLoco found a decent alternative to the Motta which might be better for the Sage. doubt you'll get a Motta new for £25, more like £30-35.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51961-found-cheap-but-decent-54mm-levelling-tool/?do=embed

EDIT: i linked to the wrong scales, i have the 500g one.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Adam.f said:


> There is a grinder section you can take a look at, it has so much info, from different makes, what people think of them have a search around https://coffeeforums.co.uk/forum/65-grinders/


 Ah sweet thanks!!


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

facboy said:


> re pressurised vs non-pressurised, it's not strictly true that it's for whole beans vs pre-ground. Hopefully the following is a reasonable summary: simplistically, during any coffee extraction the water has to spend time in contact with the coffee grounds for the process to work. The espresso machine accomplishes this by exerting back-pressure so that the water flow is slowed in the basket for a period of time. In a non-pressurised basket all the back-pressure comes from the coffee grounds, so varies with dosage, grind size, distribution, tamp, etc. A pressurised basket is designed so that nearly all the back-pressure comes from the basket itself. You get much better 'consistency' of back-pressure, but very little to no control over the extraction. The pressurised basket is thus more forgiving of mistakes, but the trade off is very little control if the beans you are using require adjustment.
> 
> more to the point, if you get pre-ground coffee intended for a non-pressurised basket (eg from your local roaster who assumes you're using non-pressurised) then it is going to choke in a pressurised basket and be useless. you might start with pressurised but I expect you will want to switch to non-pressurised pretty quickly. if you have your own grinder i don't know why you'd want to use pressurised.
> 
> ...


 Mate that's so helpful thank you!

few questions - I will always be grinding myself, you quote ' the trade off is very little control if the beans you are using require adjustment' - By adjustment do you mean all beans will probably need the grinder changing at the beginning until you've got them dialled in & the ratio/extraction time sorted? 
- what do you mean by 'more forgiving of mistakes'

- thanks for info about baratza, wonder if sage pro grinder is good as built in one gets slated? 
- scales - I read somewhere if you get 500g, the weight of your portafilter might be more than this which then makes it impossible to weight portafilter & coffee? 
- dosing funnel - I like the idea of them, searched on amazon but was out of stock


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

Wisey said:


> Mate that's so helpful thank you!
> 
> few questions - I will always be grinding myself, you quote ' the trade off is very little control if the beans you are using require adjustment' - By adjustment do you mean all beans will probably need the grinder changing at the beginning until you've got them dialled in & the ratio/extraction time sorted?
> - what do you mean by 'more forgiving of mistakes'
> ...


 i'm a fellow novice, so perhaps one of the other experts might chime in. yes, generally every bean will need to be dialled into some extent (grind size, ratio, extraction time). though mostly you worry about the taste and the rest takes care of itself. tamp and distribution you're really looking for consistency so that you can change the others with more predictable results. obviously all 3 are related...finer grind means more backpressure means longer extraction time to get the same ratio. or you keep the extraction time the same then your shot is shorter, etc.

forgiving in that small changes in grind size with an unpressurised basket can change the taste quite a lot (thus why you want fine control in your grinder, and why a stepped grinder like the encore with no fine adjustment is not ideal). also if your dosing, distribution or tamp is inconsistent then this affects the backpressure from the puck, and thus the extraction and the taste. with a pressurised basket the the basket is maintaining a consistent pressure for you, so grind size/distribution/tamp have less of an effect.

i used to weight the portafilter and it was around 300g so it was fine, but...i found it too fiddly, i prefer to just weigh the basket and funnel now, then i carefully press the basket into the portafilter after i've distributed/tamped. if i'm not careful i could disturb the puck, so it might be better to distribute/tamp after i've put the basket in the portafilter, but then i might flick coffee grounds everywhere, and so on. as people have said, it's a hobby .


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

facboy said:


> i'm a fellow novice, so perhaps one of the other experts might chime in. yes, generally every bean will need to be dialled into some extent (grind size, ratio, extraction time). though mostly you worry about the taste and the rest takes care of itself. tamp and distribution you're really looking for consistency so that you can change the others with more predictable results. obviously all 3 are related...finer grind means more backpressure means longer extraction time to get the same ratio. or you keep the extraction time the same then your shot is shorter, etc.
> 
> forgiving in that small changes in grind size with an unpressurised basket can change the taste quite a lot (thus why you want fine control in your grinder, and why a stepped grinder like the encore with no fine adjustment is not ideal). also if your dosing, distribution or tamp is inconsistent then this affects the backpressure from the puck, and thus the extraction and the taste. with a pressurised basket the the basket is maintaining a consistent pressure for you, so grind size/distribution/tamp have less of an effect.
> 
> i used to weight the portafilter and it was around 300g so it was fine, but...i found it too fiddly, i prefer to just weigh the basket and funnel now, then i carefully press the basket into the portafilter after i've distributed/tamped. if i'm not careful i could disturb the puck, so it might be better to distribute/tamp after i've put the basket in the portafilter, but then i might flick coffee grounds everywhere, and so on. as people have said, it's a hobby .


 Thanks mate...

what machine do you have to go with your baratza encore?

you say you have a baratza encore, & you're a bit of a novice.....not sounding disrespectful, do you think you're, at a level where a £250 grinder is not good enough for you? Do you think you'd taste the difference using a niche?!

Just like the average person couldn't taste the difference between a £10, £500, £10,000 bottle of wine...we wouldn't be able to pick out the fruity bites or whatever!!? I'm just wondering is it not the same with coffee?

maybe if someone was really into it, tasting daily, numerous cups etc and It was a primary obsessive passion then maybe they'd be able to tell the difference?


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

I have a Bambino Plus. I have two a day...if I had something with a bit finer control I'd probably be happy for now. I do feel at times with the Encore that on one notch the extraction is a bit quick, and for me the resulting coffee a bit...well, 'thin' for my tastes. But the next notch up the machine is practically choked, or it's over-extracted, etc.

Anyway I'm probably going to sit on the Baratza for a while yet, it was a present so I should give it a good go. And i've spent a lot on coffee stuff lately (like the Osmio, which is currently the most expensive part of my whole setup). If I upgrade I'll probably go to a Eureka Mignon Specialita or a Niche Zero...not convinced anything below that is enough of an upgrade to be worth it in the medium term. Those two are close enough in price that I'll probably go for the Niche seeing all the rave reviews it gets. I definitely won't be stepping up to the 1k+ grinders, can't see myself having that fine a palate.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

facboy said:


> I have a Bambino Plus. I have two a day...if I had something with a bit finer control I'd probably be happy for now. I do feel at times with the Encore that on one notch the extraction is a bit quick, and for me the resulting coffee a bit...well, 'thin' for my tastes. But the next notch up the machine is practically choked, or it's over-extracted, etc.
> 
> Anyway I'm probably going to sit on the Baratza for a while yet, it was a present so I should give it a good go. And i've spent a lot on coffee stuff lately (like the Osmio, which is currently the most expensive part of my whole setup). If I upgrade I'll probably go to a Eureka Mignon Specialita or a Niche Zero...not convinced anything below that is enough of an upgrade to be worth it in the medium term. Those two are close enough in price that I'll probably go for the Niche seeing all the rave reviews it gets. I definitely won't be stepping up to the 1k+ grinders, can't see myself having that fine a palate.


 You bought an osmio thing? 
big investment for a beginner a £400 water filter!!


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

well, group buy price is £321. i'm in quite a hard water area, there are benefits to it beyond just the maintenance of the coffee machine. i'm tired of descaling the kettle and throwing out brita filter cartridges, which are fairly ineffective after the first few days as far as i can tell.

i much prefer the taste of the water from the Osmio compared to the tap water. where i'm originally from in Melbourne, the water hardness is 15ppm, vs 308ppm where i am now!


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

facboy said:


> well, group buy price is £321. i'm in quite a hard water area, there are benefits to it beyond just the maintenance of the coffee machine. i'm tired of descaling the kettle and throwing out brita filter cartridges, which are fairly ineffective after the first few days as far as i can tell.
> 
> i much prefer the taste of the water from the Osmio compared to the tap water. where i'm originally from in Melbourne, the water hardness is 15ppm, vs 308ppm where i am now!


 What is ppm & how do you know what it is?

I have googled it & all I can find it is I am in a hard water area


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Parts per million

Seriously dude just stick to bottled water for now. Or your going to pickle your brain.

Volvic or tesco ashbec are the go too

Tap waters just not a good thing for machines or the taste of coffee tbh i drink mainly bottle


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

facboy said:


> well, group buy price is £321. i'm in quite a hard water area, there are benefits to it beyond just the maintenance of the coffee machine. i'm tired of descaling the kettle and throwing out brita filter cartridges, which are fairly ineffective after the first few days as far as i can tell.
> 
> i much prefer the taste of the water from the Osmio compared to the tap water. where i'm originally from in Melbourne, the water hardness is 15ppm, vs 308ppm where i am now!


 So glad I got an Osmio! Even the wife loves it


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Had mine since dave did the review.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Cuprajake said:


> Parts per million
> 
> Seriously dude just stick to bottled water for now. Or your going to pickle your brain.
> 
> ...


 Don't worry I have 0 intention of buying one, I think that's a bit next level u less your tap water it awful/you drink so much bottled water a week it'd cost you a fortune

my tap water tastes nice it's just hard!


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

Wisey said:


> Don't worry I have 0 intention of buying one, I think that's a bit next level u less your tap water it awful/you drink so much bottled water a week it'd cost you a fortune
> 
> my tap water tastes nice it's just hard!


 I use max 10 litres a week of ashbeck for coffee and general drinking, costs like £2.20

your May taste nice but it will f**k your machine


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Mine get filled twice a day.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Depends how much you drink a suppose. At the start your going to go through water as your playing


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Well when you piss in the toilet and it's not clear obviously not enough


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Joe shorrock said:


> I use max 10 litres a week of ashbeck for coffee and general drinking, costs like £2.20
> 
> your May taste nice but it will f**k your machine


 Oh yeah a yeah I totally understand that aspect of it.... If my water was soft I'd use that as my tap water tastes nice

so if you use bottled water do you still descale as often as advised (every 3 months is it?)


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Well there's still minerals in bottled water too, so id still clean as per normal.


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