# To nutate or not to nutate, that is the question



## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

I have nutated for some time and then on the advice of one of Union coffee barista trainers I swapped from that to grinding slightly finer and just doing one single flat tamp (bearing in mind I use a kinetic tamper handle)

So what do you guys all do and what's the general view on the subject?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Cam, what have you mutated into and was it painful?


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Cam, what have you mutated into and was it painful?


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

LOL! Now that is funny. Sorry chaps. In Spain writing in iPhone after one too many tinto verano!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm currently in the not nutate camp as I've just bought a trapez base. So I'm experimenting with tamping straight onto mound of coffee.

However prior to this I did used to nutate


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Cam, what have you mutated into and was it painful?


I also wondered what Cam had MUTATED into but was too scared to ask. !!!!!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Probably this

View attachment 7759


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

What is nutate ?


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

Burnzy said:


> What is nutate ?


Its a technique of tamping where you rotate the tamper around the coffee in a gyroscopic fashion in order to distribute and compact the coffee better and help avoid channelling.

A quick search on YouTube brought up this... it's not the best video guide I've seen but it will give you the basic idea;


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Probably this
> 
> View attachment 7759


That's me when I've made a sink shot!


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I'm currently in the not nutate camp as I've just bought a trapez base. So I'm experimenting with tamping straight onto mound of coffee.
> 
> However prior to this I did used to nutate


Not nutating now that you've bought a trapez base??


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Milanski said:


> Not nutating now that you've bought a trapez base??


Correct. With the trapez I'm tamping straight onto the mound.

Previously I've been using a plan2convex, nutating before lightly tamping


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I might have to start measuring some extraction to see the impact of doing it, certainly all my most tasty espresso since getting the EK have been keep-it-simple when it comes to tamping.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

I don't understand what nutating is trying to achieve. It seems to me that it would force grounds into the centre of the basket by compressing the grounds at the edge more than those at the centre (during the nutation). How can this result in an even puck?

Bemused of Hampton


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

I feel that my shots have improved taste wise since not nutating and I seem to get less instances of channelling. Certainly the end results are more consistent which makes sense to me since it's hard to replicate the same nutation motion and pressure time after time whereas you are more likely to manage a similar single downward press each time


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Correct. With the trapez I'm tamping straight onto the mound.
> 
> Previously I've been using a plan2convex, nutating before lightly tamping


Am i being dim? 'Trapez' denotes the slanted edges of the base making it easier to nutate or am I missing something?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Obnic said:


> I don't understand what nutating is trying to achieve. It seems to me that it would force grounds into the centre of the basket by compressing the grounds at the edge more than those at the centre (during the nutation). How can this result in an even puck?
> 
> Bemused of Hampton


Nutating pushes grounds into the edge of the bottom of the basket, you always finish off with a straight tamp and polish


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Milanski said:


> Am i being dim? 'Trapez' denotes the slanted edges of the base making it easier to nutate or am I missing something?


I always thought that the Trapez tamper was designed to help nutating?!? That's what I thought Milan.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> Nutating pushes grounds into the edge of the bottom of the basket, you always finish off with a straight tamp and polish


I'm having trouble envisaging that.

If I drop my tamper onto the grinds at an angle (lower edge at North) it compresses the grinds under the lower edge (North) a bit and shunts some of the pile South. 'Into the bottom edge' you say.

But, as I nutate I effectively perform this same operation of compress and shunt at every point of the compass. The net effect is to shunt the grounds into the middle, with a ring of compressed grounds at the edge. When I now tamp flat, it seems to me, I end up with a denser puck in the centre, albeit with a well sealed edge. I would expect either a doughnut or uneven extraction because of different volumes of water passing through different parts of the puck.

It almost the opposite of a convex tamp which does push grounds outward - just a little - at the price of a 'denser at the edges but well sealed' puck.

I wonder if this wasn't a Perger technique to compensate for the idiosyncratic EK43 gushing pour?

I'm sorry, I'm sure I'm being dim. Can you break it down for me and tell me what issue it seems to address. I'd hate to think my straight tamp and polish makes me a Luddite.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

Obnic said:


> I don't understand what nutating is trying to achieve. It seems to me that it would force grounds into the centre of the basket by compressing the grounds at the edge more than those at the centre (during the nutation). How can this result in an even puck?


After Matt Perger reintroduced nutating technique into the discussion I tried it again in my daily routine. Unlike Matt, I (1) did not find it to decrease the flowrate in my EK43 extractions, (2) didn't find an improvement in the taste of my shots and (3) didn't find an increase in extraction yield when measuring.

Not saying that Matt is wrong, I'm just saying I couldn't replicate his result.

I agree with you that in attempting to reduce edge channeling, nutation would in theory produce a *less* even grounds density (by forcing grounds to the center).



CamV6 said:


> I feel that my shots have improved taste wise since not nutating and I seem to get less instances of channelling. Certainly the end results are more consistent which makes sense to me since it's hard to replicate the same nutation motion and pressure time after time whereas you are more likely to manage a similar single downward press each time


Yes, I found it hard to make the exact same nutating motion each time. But undoubtedly a pro barista like Matt can be much more consistent after practicing thousands of times.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Obnic said:


> I'm having trouble envisaging that.
> 
> If I drop my tamper onto the grinds at an angle (lower edge at North) it compresses the grinds under the lower edge (North) a bit and shunts some of the pile South. 'Into the bottom edge' you say.
> 
> ...


I think to each their own, I do not experience donut extractions with nutating, just even extractions.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Both the runner up in the WBC, Kapo Chiu and Maxwell used EKs and tamped very lightly with no nutating.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

I also think my nutation was maybe a little over aggressive which probably wouldn't have helped


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

I nutate. I put the grounds into the basket, rest the tamper on top and rotate it using only the weight of the tamper to spread the grounds evenly throughout the basket then I give a single pressured downward tamp and a final unpressured twist to polish.

Whether I'm doing it right or wrong I don't know but I never seem to get channelling and it looks even enough and my extractions run at about the required time. As for any taste difference compared to before I used to nutate I couldn't say.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

@AndyS that's interesting. Am I right then in inferring that nutation re-emerged because of the EK pour characteristics (ie compensating for lack of fines and their sealing qualities) enabling him to reach for that extra %extraction that only the EK can yield cleanly?

I'm going to have to try this for myself - now feeling the lack of VST TDS apparatus







damn this place


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

AndyS said:


> I (1) did not find it to decrease the flowrate in my EK43 extractions, (2) didn't find an improvement in the taste of my shots and (3) didn't find an increase in extraction yield when measuring.


You have saved me a job : )


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Milanski said:


> Am i being dim? 'Trapez' denotes the slanted edges of the base making it easier to nutate or am I missing something?


Sorry for any confusion, I'm not saying you can't nutate with a trapez.

it's just that changed my technique by tamping directly onto a mound with no nutation.


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Sorry for any confusion, I'm not saying you can't nutate with a trapez.
> 
> it's just that changed my technique by tamping directly onto a mound with no nutation.


Urban, I'm sure you've got it mixed up so want to clarify so other less informed people reading this don't get confused.

Tamping onto the mound must mean your tamper has a convex base (as opposed to the plan2convex you originally had)?

The 'trapez' edges make for easier nutating (as they do not catch the sides of the basket so easily) but do not make any difference to the tamping of the mound itself.


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

As for nutating, I am probably doing it wrong (though I did try to replicate MP's technique of one full (quite highly angled) nutation).

I found no advantages and in fact I had developed some spritzing that didn't happen before. Maybe it's cack technique, maybe it's my Silvia...maybe something else.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

Obnic said:


> @AndyS that's interesting. Am I right then in inferring that nutation re-emerged because of the EK pour characteristics (ie compensating for lack of fines and their sealing qualities)


That is my recollection from watching Matt's 2013 WBC video -- but I might not be recalling it correctly or completely.



garydyke1 said:


> You have saved me a job : )


Perhaps, but just because nutating didn't work for me doesn't mean it won't work for you. Subtle differences in hardware and technique often provide varying results for different people.


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## coffeechops (Dec 23, 2013)

I've nutated for a long time, perhaps five years, using the exact 'no pressure' method described above. It gives me more even and - after this much time - much more repeatable results on my Silvia. I started as a way of removing spritzers, and it has done exactly that. The output is always very even - no donuts at all. I just dump the grinds in, no levelling or distribution, and nutate - always a great pour.

I tried it on the La Marzocco at Extract last weekend, after the exact same grind had been run at 43g out over 28 seconds, and whilst it was also a great pour it only produced roughly a 28g output in the same time.

My conclusion from that is that nutating compresses the bed much more evenly and efficiently (no pressure was used whilst nutating). This might make it useful for those who cannot grind as fine, perhaps.

C


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

I did mention in another thread that I was nutating with virtually the only pressure being that from the tamper. Nutate 3 times around with the tamper then a polish, again with only the weight of the tamper, it's worked for me without any grind adjustment. I thought it would take away any variation cause by tamper weight plus any pressure inadvertently applied.

The aim of course being maximum consistency

Ian


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## michaelg (Jul 25, 2013)

I nutate and have done for about a year I think and I would say I get nicer pours overall and more consistency between pours too for some reason. I have a Torr Trapez convex. I'm a fan of it.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Milanski said:


> Urban, I'm sure you've got it mixed up so want to clarify so other less informed people reading this don't get confused.
> 
> Tamping onto the mound must mean your tamper has a convex base (as opposed to the plan2convex you originally had)?
> 
> The 'trapez' edges make for easier nutating (as they do not catch the sides of the basket so easily) but do not make any difference to the tamping of the mound itself.


Hi Milanski, sorry....yes I can see what you're trying to say.

Yes the TrapezConvex is designed to be used for Nutation.

The Plan2Convex is more geared up for a straight tamp rather than nutation.

However I have found that I could get good results from a gentle nutation with the Plan2Convex if tamping onto a level bed of grinds. Light tamp seems to work best.

What I did find when I switched to the SJ was that I was getting dead spots with the Plan2Convex (even with nutating). If I levelled or stirred the grind then the dead spot issues decreased.

So I decided to experiment with the "keep it simple" approach with the ConvexTrapez by tamping directly onto a neat mound of grinds........I'm sure I'll go back to nutating in a month and try something different


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Thanks for the clarification!


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Eyedee said:


> I did mention in another thread that I was nutating with virtually the only pressure being that from the tamper. Nutate 3 times around with the tamper then a polish, again with only the weight of the tamper, it's worked for me without any grind adjustment. I thought it would take away any variation cause by tamper weight plus any pressure inadvertently applied.
> 
> The aim of course being maximum consistency
> 
> Ian


 I wonder what I've done wrong: I tried this approach and ended up, twice. with chunks of the puck sticking to my showerhead (I use a Classic) and a longer extraction time. I hadn't altered anything else. I usually follow what Scott Rao outlines - NSEW distribution followed by a tamp without any polishing. I'd be grateful for any thoughts.


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## tribs (Feb 21, 2012)

I have only been experimenting with nutating for a short while, but with the EK grinds it does seem to pack them more densely (gr?). Whether this is a good thing or not is a different matter.

After nutating a few times, I find that the grinds are no longer compressible by a straight tamp and it does restrict flow more. However, it is generally considered a bad thing to tamp with excessive pressure, presumably due to risk of increased chanelling etc and a nutated tamp does seem to have a similar effect to a very firm tamp.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

tribs said:


> I have only been experimenting with nutating for a short while, but with the EK grinds it does seem to pack them more densely (gr?). Whether this is a good thing or not is a different matter.
> 
> After nutating a few times, I find that the grinds are no longer compressible by a straight tamp and it does restrict flow more. However, it is generally considered a bad thing to tamp with excessive pressure, presumably due to risk of increased chanelling etc and a nutated tamp does seem to have a similar effect to a very firm tamp.


 Ah, this has helped me realise what I might have done wrong - I tamped, with pressure, in between the three rotations and the final polish so I shouldn't have done that.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

I'm using a Mignon, by the way.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Phil104 said:


> Ah, this has helped me realise what I might have done wrong - I tamped, with pressure, in between the three rotations and the final polish so I shouldn't have done that.


You've got it, use the weight of the tamper only for the 3 rotations then follow this with a light tamp ( adjust as needed) and polish again with just the weight of the tamper.

I've also found nutating to help when a bean seems to need to be ground finer than I would really like it, as it lets you grind a little coarser and still get good results. With a Mignon it may even be that by being able to grind a bit coarser it will reduce clumping. Also don't bother with anything like stirring the ground as nutating helps to sort distribution.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Thanks Charlie - further practice ahead.


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