# Best PID control



## MuthaPucker (Aug 24, 2013)

Which PID is the most reliable?


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Hi MuthaPucker and welcome to Coffee Forums UK

Which machine would you be PID'ing?

Do you have a limited budget?


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## Bruntino (Feb 24, 2013)

As the OP never responded and I'm quite interested in the answer I'll reply instead. I've got a 6 month old (Phillips) Classic. Not sure on budget as no real idea of prices. Only one I've investigated is the Auber pre-made PIDs which come in at up to £130 plus postage from the States.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Bruntino said:


> As the OP never responded and I'm quite interested in the answer I'll reply instead. I've got a 6 month old (Phillips) Classic. Not sure on budget as no real idea of prices. Only one I've investigated is the Auber pre-made PIDs which come in at up to £130 plus postage from the States.


The sestos ones are fine and you can have it and everything you need for around £50.


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## badger28 (Jan 5, 2013)

I did this over the weekend and everything came to about 50 quid including heat sinks etc.


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## clickhappy (Feb 1, 2012)

£50, bargain. Is it an easy job? I have a Gaggia Baby Class and am struggling with shot consistency.

Would I be best off buying a used Classic to PID rather than keeping the Baby?

How much improvement have you found in your shots/steaming since fitting the PID?

Badger/Kyle, could you post a link to the kit you bought and if there was a how to guide you followed?

Thanks,

Tom


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

clickhappy said:


> £50, bargain. Is it an easy job? I have a Gaggia Baby Class and am struggling with shot consistency.
> 
> Would I be best off buying a used Classic to PID rather than keeping the Baby?
> 
> ...


Got to assemble your own kit I'm afraid.


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## badger28 (Jan 5, 2013)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141049178395?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221016709179?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300946124460?var=600141511127&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

http://www.maplin.co.uk/k-type-wire-thermocouple-46256

I purchased 1m of 15 amp cable from maplin. And some piggy back connectors to connect the power cables.

Followed a mixture of these guides...

http://www.thedomesticbarista.com/index.php/Adding_a_PID_to_a_Gaggia_Coffee_espresso_machine.

http://up.picr.de/3043530.pdf

It took me 2 to 3 hours. I am far from an expect but any questions, or need pictures then give me a shout.


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## badger28 (Jan 5, 2013)

Too soon to notice any improvement, still trying to work out the best temp. But it is good to avoid the need to temp surf.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

badger28 said:


> Too soon to notice any improvement, still trying to work out the best temp. But it is good to avoid the need to temp surf.


Best to get a 40amp SSR, then you don't need to heat sink it.

You can add steam control too, but it adds a little complexity to the wiring.

I really recommend it though.


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## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

I've had my classic since June and although I'm happy to temperature surf id quite like to put a pid on it. I've followed some other threads on the sestos units and I'm intrigued. Any chance you could post some photos of your installation?


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## badger28 (Jan 5, 2013)

40amp ssr is a good idea. The heat sink (when it arrives) will make things pretty tight inside.

I will take photo's tomorrow.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

badger28 said:


> 40amp ssr is a good idea. The heat sink (when it arrives) will make things pretty tight inside.
> 
> I will take photo's tomorrow.


I have 2 SSRs and an LED driver in mine because I used the 40 amp ones.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

c_squared said:


> I've had my classic since June and although I'm happy to temperature surf id quite like to put a pid on it. I've followed some other threads on the sestos units and I'm intrigued. Any chance you could post some photos of your installation?


I'll post some photos of mine tomorrow; if all things go to plan I'll have a new grinder tomorrow, so I'll take some photos of my set up at the same time.

The inside of my classic is a mess though.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

What grinder are you going for ???


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## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

40amp and heat sink, I'm already confused!!


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

c_squared said:


> 40amp and heat sink, I'm already confused!!


Amps are a measure of how much electric is present, kind of the volume of electric (watts is like the flow rate and volts the momentum).

Basically, the 40 amp unit is designed to hold more electricity before failing so it will not be as hot for any given number of amps.

The 20 amp model needs a heat sink when run from the mains, the 40 amp model doesn't.

Im getting a La Cimbali Magnum, courtesy of Coffee Chap.


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## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> Amps are a measure of how much electric is present, kind of the volume of electric (watts is like the flow rate and volts the momentum).
> 
> Basically, the 40 amp unit is designed to hold more electricity before failing so it will not be as hot for any given number of amps.
> 
> ...


Cheers Kyle, that kind of makes sense, I think! I definitely know I need to have a proper think through this to work out if I'm at risk of a) blowing up my machine, b) blowing myself up or c) both a and b!!


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

It's not a big job at all and I think so far, it's the single best thing I have done to improve my coffee.

I would recommend the steam control if nothing else, it turns the steam into something useful.



c_squared said:


> Cheers Kyle, that kind for makes sense, I think! I definitely know I need to have a proper think through this to work out if I'm at risk of a) blowing up my machine and b) blowing myself up or c) both a and b!!


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## clickhappy (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks guys, I have a few days off before xmas which I think will be spent PIDing.

Do you just increase the temperature on the PID to start steaming?


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

clickhappy said:


> Thanks guys, I have a few days off before xmas which I think will be spent PIDing.
> 
> Do you just increase the temperature on the PID to start steaming?


You can wire it up so that flicking the steam button increases the boiler temp.

It's not hard, but you need a second SSR that can do AC-AC.


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## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> You can wire it up so that flicking the steam button increases the boiler temp.
> 
> It's not hard, but you need a second SSR that can do AC-AC.


Do you know why the auber pid unit can run the steam function and brew temp off one SSR?


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

c_squared said:


> Do you know why the auber pid unit can run the steam function and brew temp off one SSR?


The insides are hacked.

The guys over at Yahoo Gaggia group say the Auber units are unsafe.

To be honest, it's not worth the extra £50, when you can get an SSR and some cable for maybe a fiver more.


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## Flibster (Aug 15, 2010)

Kyle548 said:


> You can wire it up so that flicking the steam button increases the boiler temp.
> 
> It's not hard, but you need a second SSR that can do AC-AC.


Ok... Now I'm fascinated by that. Should be receiving some PID gear this week, so that would be a cool function to have.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Flibster said:


> Ok... Now I'm fascinated by that. Should be receiving some PID gear this week, so that would be a cool function to have.


Make sure you buy an AC-AC SSR, not a AC-DC one or the relay will explode and destroy your alarm circuit.


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## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> The insides are hacked.
> 
> The guys over at Yahoo Gaggia group say the Auber units are unsafe.
> 
> To be honest, it's not worth the extra £50, when you can get an SSR and some cable for maybe a fiver more.


Yeah I just didn't know why it was so that helps and like you say, the small extra far out ways the £50


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## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> Make sure you buy an AC-AC SSR, not a AC-DC one or the relay will explode and destroy your alarm circuit.


Looks like I need to start putting a shopping list together to make sure I've got it right!!


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

c_squared said:


> Looks like I need to start putting a shopping list together to make sure I've got it right!!


If you like I can check it over for you.


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## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> If you like I can check it over for you.


Excellent, I was hoping you would say that. Right, here goes...

PID unit (sestos)

Wire k-type thermocouple

Something to stick the wire in the hole with

40amp SSR x2 (not sure what types ac-ac etc)

15amp cable (not sure how much I would need)

Piggy back connectors (not sure how many)

Other connectors (not sure what types)

Mmmm, I have no clue if that's it!!


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

c_squared said:


> Excellent, I was hoping you would say that. Right, here goes...
> 
> PID unit (sestos)
> 
> ...


You are best getting this type of TC.

You need Piggy back connectors, tongue connectors and those U shaped fork connectors.

At least 3m of cable.

40 amp AC-DC SSR

40 amp AC-AC SSR

Pid unit

some velcro tape

some heat sink compound.


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## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

Thanks Kyle! ?


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## Flibster (Aug 15, 2010)

Why use the ring k-type over the wire type?

Wire can be sealed into the thermostat location using a drilled bolt and some thermal epoxy.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Flibster said:


> Why use the ring k-type over the wire type?
> 
> Wire can be sealed into the thermostat location using a drilled bolt and some thermal epoxy.


Its difficult to get it in.

I drilled a hole in my boiler thermowell and used heat sink compound as an epoxy of sorts.

I found drilling a bolt too difficult without the right tools.


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## badger28 (Jan 5, 2013)

Some pictures as promised...

View attachment 4373


Okay, so the above picture is of the rear. SSR is stuck to the rear of the classic. It is only a 25amp one, waiting for my heatsink to arrive to fit that. However I fear that it will be too tight in there and so I will upgrade to a 40amp SSR if so.

Although it is not clear in the picture, there is a neutral wire for the SSR connected to the rear of class ic (where the power comes in). I used a piggy back connector to do this.

View attachment 4374


The above picture shows where the live wire is connected. To the front of the unit using a piggy back connector. So the PID is only on when the machine is and not permanently.

View attachment 4375


This shows the standard thermocouple has been removed. The two wires are connected to the PID.

View attachment 4376


The wire type thermocouple. Not ideal as I just blue tacked it down. It has been there for a few weeks now, and I keep checking it to ensure it remains in place. It is lodged inbetween the bolt and the boiler so I am reasonably sure it will remain in place.

View attachment 4377


Finally the final unit. It is a bit messy and I am waiting for a project box to cover the wires up and make it safer.

If anyone has any advice on improvements etc I would appreciate it. Any questions and I will do my best to answer....


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Nice to see these little projects in the flesh


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Why is everyone going for the massively overspec'ed 40amp SSRs? have you checked the power rating of the heater? it's 1.5kW if I'm not mistaken, which gives you a laughable 6.5-7A of current, yet you are planning to use an SSR which is capable of switching almost 6 times that amount. Before you slap a heatsink on it or go from 20A to 40A, just check what temperatures it gets to, you already have it connected to a rather large piece of metal, which will help slightly in heat dissipation (it's not a heatsink per se, but will help rather than make things worse). You have to be aware that most of the time it will just sit there switching for a split second now and then to keep the temp at the right level and it's not like it has a 6L boiler to heat up either.

Regards,

T.


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## badger28 (Jan 5, 2013)

If I am honest I haven't really looked into it. I have just read in a few places that there would be 0% chance of it getting too hot with a 40amp ssr, so to avoid any problems (and without any downside) then it was worth considering. Thus far it only has a 25amp one on and hasn't set alight etc yet.

I will check the temp tomorrow and let people know...

Added the project box today. Picture below. It is blurry however gives you the idea of where I have got to with it.

View attachment 4397


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## alexgrc (May 29, 2013)

Where did you get the project box from? Do you have a link to provide?


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## badger28 (Jan 5, 2013)

I got it from Maplin however there doesn't seem to be a link to the exact one on their website.

The PID goes about half way back the length of the box. And there is about 0.5cm either side of the PID on the width.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

badger28 said:


> View attachment 4397


Maybe you've a reason for leaving it on but did you know that white stuff peels off the drip tray to leave a nice shiny chrome finish?


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## badger28 (Jan 5, 2013)

Ha brilliant. Thanks very much!

Can pid the machine but failed to unwrap it.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

badger28 said:


> Ha brilliant. Thanks very much!
> 
> Can pid the machine but failed to unwrap it.


I thought you were just leaving it on while you were doing the PID or something, just to make sure it didn't get scratched!


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## badger28 (Jan 5, 2013)

Errrmm yes that is exactly what I was doing!!


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## dimitris (Feb 12, 2013)

@badger28 mate you did a really good job and it seems that you know what to do...if its not a big trouble for you can you please put more detailed photos and a guide which cable goes where for example the 2 number hole in sestos where it goes. It will make things a lot easier for people that are out of the filed... i am telling this from a personal experience when i tried to install my pid in classic and i blow it up!!!!! pretty scary sound!!! please upload ..!!

thanks in advance!!!

ps. also has anyone tried another brand of pid because it seems that sestos realise that everyone is buying their pids for modding and increased its prices from 28£(march 2013) to 50£ today!!!!!


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## badger28 (Jan 5, 2013)

Hey,

many apologies for the slow reply. Have had a crazy two weeks. I will happily take pictures etc but it is likely to happen over Christmas as I have some time off work (and it involves removing the wires to get the pid out of the project box).

I have to stress though that I am not an expert, I just followed a few guides and got lucky!


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