# Total Newbie approx £1000 to spend on Machine + Grinder Set-Up



## daraghoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Hey folks,

Saeco(Primea Touch Plus) "bean to cup" machine has died(well not booting up properly ... no one in Dublin will touch it for repairs!) and I am considering upgrading to a more manual set-up with a semi-automatic machine and grinder combo.

Will be mostly used for espresso and americano ... ie non milk based drinks but would still like to be able to knock out a good cappuccino from time to time.

Reading a bit on the forums here ... I'm interested in developing my interest in coffee as a bit of a hobby! Just learning about single vs double boilers PID etc..

Anyway its a bit of a treat to myself ..... budget circa £1000 +/- a little if I really like a particular machine.

I'm Dublin based so will need to purchase from a vendor who delivers here(guess most do).

Price is important from a value point of view ... we tend to get screwed on price for everything here but the reputation of the vendor is important also as its a significant purchase.

Coffeeitalia.co.uk seem to have an Irish branch(virtual) coffeeitalia.ie and their prices are keen but I do note quite a few negative reviews online.

Anyway any recommendations on machines or vendors would be greatly appreciated just stumbled on the site and enjoying all the info and advice available.

many thanks

Daragh


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

daraghoc said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> Saeco(Primea Touch Plus) "bean to cup" machine has died(well not booting up properly ... no one in Dublin will touch it for repairs!) and I am considering upgrading to a more manual set-up with a semi-automatic machine and grinder combo.
> 
> ...


As far as I can tell Coffee Italia are a foreign business with a couple of warehouses in England, and (as per your post) Ireland. Recently someone here cancelled a purchase shortly after paying, and the refund had credit card fees deducted, not a common practice with any company I have ever dealt with. They are highly competitive but be very wary.

Bella Barista have a stellar reputation on the forums, and they would be a good place to start looking. You need to include a good grinder in your budget, they are easily as important as the machine itself. You can do all this for 1k, if you can stretch to 1400 you could jump in with a new machine that will last you a lifetime and a great grinder to boot. Secondhand you 1k Budget would already cover this, buying S/H from the forum is, in most cases, as good as buying new. You will get a lot of support and a well cared for machine from here.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

You may save money buying from Coffee Italia but you could find yourself up the creek if you need to access customer service.


----------



## daraghoc (Oct 22, 2014)

D_Evans said:


> As far as I can tell Coffee Italia are a foreign business with a couple of warehouses in England, and (as per your post) Ireland. Recently someone here cancelled a purchase shortly after paying, and the refund had credit card fees deducted, not a common practice with any company I have ever dealt with. They are highly competitive but be very wary.
> 
> Bella Barista have a stellar reputation on the forums, and they would be a good place to start looking. You need to include a good grinder in your budget, they are easily as important as the machine itself. You can do all this for 1k, if you can stretch to 1400 you could jump in with a new machine that will last you a lifetime and a great grinder to boot. Secondhand you 1k Budget would already cover this, buying S/H from the forum is, in most cases, as good as buying new. You will get a lot of support and a well cared for machine from here.


Thanks D_Evans ...

if I was to push the boat out .... to £1400 .... what combos would you suggest?

I've seen some very good feedback from Bella Barista and Electros.it

thanks

Daragh


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Are you set on buying new?


----------



## daraghoc (Oct 22, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Are you set on buying new?


No very much open to a decent used machine but don't see much available online other than Gaggia Classic's and Silva's

D


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Seriously - buy a Gaggia Classic (good used one for £150 or new for £250) and whatever you have left on the best grinder you can lay your hands on.

Then, when you catch upgraditus and have the cash, sell the Gaggia (if you buy a used one you should be able to sell it for what you pay for it - or more if you do some good mods: PID, Silvia wand, etc) and buy a good dual boiler for £1K or something.

A Gaggia Classic + a Compak K10 Pro Barista would be just inside your upper budget new... less if you can find good used ones.


----------



## awcoffee (Aug 18, 2014)

+1 on the Pro Barista and a buying a really good grinder first. People on here are for ever selling decent machines at a decent price so just wait and enjoy a Classic in the meantime.

Alan


----------



## daraghoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I think I've located a Mazzer Mini Electronic Type A in great nick from a classified site here in Dublin .... so if the deal goes thru I'll be able to put a little more towards the coffee machine!


----------



## daraghoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Mazzer bought! .... cant believe I got the grinder before the espresso machine!


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Not a bad thing now just have to get a machine


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

MrShades said:


> Seriously - buy a Gaggia Classic (good used one for £150 or new for £250) and whatever you have left on the best grinder you can lay your hands on.
> 
> Then, when you catch upgraditus and have the cash, sell the Gaggia (if you buy a used one you should be able to sell it for what you pay for it - or more if you do some good mods: PID, Silvia wand, etc) and buy a good dual boiler for £1K or something.
> 
> A Gaggia Classic + a Compak K10 Pro Barista would be just inside your upper budget new... less if you can find good used ones.


I would wholeheartedly disagree with the above (the bit about buying a classic) unless you have a very tight budget. Grinders, like machines, have a diminishing return at the top end. It makes no sense to spend over a grand on a grinder and then £120 on your machine when that machine can be a huge source of frustration.

The Classic is an excellent starter machine, but it has a lot of pitfalls, namely inconsistent temperature which you have to learn to control, poor milk steaming capacity for those odd milk drinks and the need to allow the machine to "recover" between shots meaning entertaining guests becomes a lesson in frustration. If your on a tight budget all of this can be overlooked or overcome but you aren't, so its better to buy a more capable machine.

If you budget after your grinder purchase is still over 1k then you have a lot of options. Firstly, go here: http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?17519-Machines-what-do-you-get-for-your-money and read that thread thoroughly. It will explain the key differences in the machines and give you a good idea of what you are looking for.

Here are a few options with a short explanation, all new, I would definitely recommend settling on what you need and then buying S/H on these forums. Its good to hear you got a Mazzer Mini E cheap, they are a good grinder, but do be careful where you buy from.

Lower end HX machine: Expobar Office Pulsar, I own this machine, and its capable of essentially the same things any manual pump driven machine is. Being a HX design means you have to 'flush' the grouphead, this can become annoying and can also introduce temperature inconsistency to your shot (a very bad thing) but will a small amount of practice this can be tamed and it can produce an excellent espresso.

Higher end DB: Expobar Office Leva or Sage DB, the Expobar is a forum favorite and produces an espresso some say the Sage cant match, its a beautiful machine and will last you a lifetime, from a tried and tested make. The Sage is a new machine, and as such untested, but it offers a large range of 'friendly' features, like auto-on, rapid heat up, easy descaling routing, and when you get a bit more experienced the ability to control how the shot is poured somewhat.

Levers : Arguably the best machine you can get if you drink espresso, infact that is almost universally accepted by anyone who has tried one (not me). Good ones aren't cheap, but now and then you find one in the classifieds for around 1k. Coffee Chap is a good man to speak to about the possibility of picking up a S/H level.

I should add that these are just three machines that have been talked about a lot on the forum recently (and the Office Pulsar, which I own) so they sprung to mind, they are just to start you on your quest to find one right for you, not necessarily the very best ones that exist.


----------



## PeterF (Aug 25, 2014)

I totally agree with DE


----------



## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

PeterF said:


> I totally agree with DE


Me too


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

I stand by my suggestion - and as the OP is looking for a machine for espresso and americanos the lack of good steam power (but OK for occasional use) on a Classic wouldn't make any difference.

A lightly modded (brass dispersion plate, OPV and PID) Classic + titan grinder combination could be easily source 2nd hand for about £1000 - and would get better results than an HX machine with a Mazzer Mini.

Yes, the Classic would then be the weakest link in the setup... but I'd rather have a great grinder + Classic, than a great HX or DB machine (when steaming isn't an issue) + mediocre grinder.

Anyone that would like to, is welcome to come and taste what my Classic is producing at the moment when I put decent coffee through it. The Graef is working very well with it, but shots ground with the K10 Fresh are really quite something.

Grinder, grinder, grinder... (if you say it three times when facing a shiny grinder then apparently Coffeechap appears!)


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Agree with getting a good grinder , I think you can still get great coffee, and better than a lot of shop with some good beans , and skill , with a superjolly or mini comparable equivalent .

Coming from a bean to cup - there is there is going to be barista skills to learn , I'm not a fan of learning to temp surf unless you have to ( it touches you nothing other than how to manipulate an is equate machine into something useable )

So mazzer mini at the right price and a temp stable machine ( HX ) and some training and you'll be well on they to coffee nirvana ......


----------



## daraghoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Well the grinder is in the bag. Just collected it from across the city and its pristine, like new so I think I've done well. Its the Mazzer Mini Electronic Type A and looks like its hardly been used. Very tempted by the Expobar and Rocket machines .... pricey but they look great as well as having the features. On the other hand that same classified site over here has a Nouva Simonelli Oscar for €350(perhaps neg) but the red colour is kinda putting me off. Anyway more to think about ... thanks again for all the info guys. D.


----------



## daraghoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Grinder:


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I had an Oscar for a while. It's a good little unit (if you can get past the plastic/colour) but as it's a heat exchanger you need to flush some water through the group before use if it's been sitting idle for a while to cool it down. How much water you need to run through is a bit of a guess but if you keep it consistent you'll have a consistent temp (even if you're not quite sure what it is). No hot water tap on the Oscar and runs at a high pressure unless you're willing to install a valve to adjust it yourself (not hard but does involve drilling through the case).

With a Rocket DB or Expobar DB you get a PID so you know what temp you're getting, but they're at least two, probably three, time the price.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

As above, I have a HX and the flushing is a bit of guess work tbh. You can counter this by getting a temperature probe that reads the group temperature and then learning how long your flush needs to be. With my machine for example I give it a 15second flush, enough to fill a 60ml espresso cup, then pull a shot shortly after, this seems to get me a nice drink... most of the time, and when it doesn't it would be difficult to pinpoint the temperature as the cause.

The most important bit is to flush the superheated (it will turn to steam as soon as it exits the group head, so 100deg+) water from the HX pipe. Coffee does not have one golden temperature, but your machine should fall between 90-96deg, and a flush on a HX usually gets it in this area.

The major advantage of the more expensive DB machines is the PID, this exactly controls the brew head temp. This means if after you nail your grind, distribution and tamp and your coffee is still not perfect you can adjust the temperature to fine tune the output. A machine like the Sage DB also allows you to experiment with pre-infusion and pressure from the pump.

Much of the reason I think MrShades was suggesting the Classic however is that it will take you quite a while before any of this matters, and a basic machine is enough to learn on (although I would still contest that the Classic can seriously hinder your progress). Think of it like someone giving you a Porsche to learn to drive with, it would be excessive and you wouldn't get your moneys worth at first, but if driving became your passion it would be a long time before you ever thought of upgrading (leaving out the maintenance costs of cars in the analogy).

It may well be worth buying something like the Oscar (even tho, IMHO, its ugly as sin... much like my machine







) to begin with, and not blow the bank. These lower end HX machines give probably the best bang for the buck when it comes to home espresso, they are extremely capable machines. If you buy S/H you will likely loose little to nothing if you decide in a year that you would like to upgrade to a DB or high end HX.

Oh and do you mind me asking how much you picked up the Mini E for? Great news that its in A1 condition.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I wouldn't buy acheaper machine to 'learn on'. Pointless exercise and you'll end up frustrated. Read up, decide what you want to pay and go for it. You're unlikely to lose much money on whatever machine you buy.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

jeebsy said:


> I wouldn't buy acheaper machine to 'learn on'. Pointless exercise and you'll end up frustrated. Read up, decide what you want to pay and go for it. You're unlikely to lose much money on whatever machine you buy.


I meant more along the lines that the cheaper HX machines are perfectly capable, in fact the problems with them remain regardless of price, the desire to upgrade from an Oscar or Pulsar is often driven by the desire for a 'sexier' machine, or by wanting to perfect your shot which is perhaps not possible without the addition of a PID, but this argument could be made of an Exbobar DB vs a Vesuvius. (as in the Vesuvius allows one to 'perfect' the shot more than the Expobar)

I think perhaps not enough has been said about levers. If I am not wrong there are a few very nice ones floating around that price point, an L1 just sold for £1300, and they are held in exceptionally high regard for espresso.


----------



## daraghoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Gave €375 for the Mazzer Mini so about £295 GB not peanuts but its like new not a mark on it! Your also on the ball with the red Oscar ... just wont look right in my kitchen!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Perhaps you can pick up a classic or a Silvia fitted with a pid ...

Other that that your looking Sat the bottom end of price range for second hand hx machines.

Fracino Cherub or Heavenly can got for £350 - £400 depending on age ...


----------



## daraghoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I have about £800 to £1000 still for the coffee machine ... but still wondering whether to go cheap and explore with a Classic for a while or get a more serious machine that I can develope my skills with!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

If you decide to 'go cheap and explore' - buy second hand - that way you will not lose out when you upgrade.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

daraghoc said:


> I have about £800 to £1000 still for the coffee machine ... but still wondering whether to go cheap and explore with a Classic for a while or get a more serious machine that I can develope my skills with!


The skills you will develop will be the same for a classic or a HX or DB machine

Dose , tamp , grind , distribution

Better machines will do things quicker ( steam and make drinks quicker )

BUT

The classic or SIlvia ( u pidded ) will make you learn temp surfing to accommodate their rubbish temp management systems. Big temp variances can be frustrating when trying to diagnose why your coffee is bitter and sour .


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Classic + cheap eBay PID + brass disp plate.... ;-)

Buy used at a good price, deep clean, add PID + brass plate = flog it for more than the sum of parts!


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

MrShades said:


> Classic + cheap eBay PID + brass disp plate.... ;-)
> 
> Buy used at a good price, deep clean, add PID + brass plate = flog it for more than the sum of parts!


Absolutely do not do this unless you want 'a project' ( which it doesn't sound like you do) ( I know you're being tongue in cheek)


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

That's not a project - it's almost plug'n'play and is probably 4hrs work at the very most...


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Have you considered an Olympia cremina? I have put mine back up for sale on here


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Will you only be making one drink at a time?

Are you happy to add a PID to the Classic (some DIY and learning required)?

Will you rarely, if ever, be making milk-based drinks?

If the answer to all the above is yes, then a Classic would be the cheaper option. If your siding on no to any of them, and especially more than one, then at the very least buy a HX machine.

Edit: if you are serious about your espresso CC's Cremina would be a great choice, and its at a really good price as well.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Bean2cup to cremina is a big step up!


----------



## daraghoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Was not really considering a lever machine to be honest .... looks like a good deal though!


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

daraghoc said:


> Was not really considering a lever machine to be honest .... looks like a good deal though!


Let me put it this way.

I have a pump machine, and I really REALLY want a lever machine.

I dont even drink espresso that much, but they are beautiful things, and quiet as a mouse.


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

No Sir, what you want is a pump that acts like a lever.... Vesuvius, Slayer, etc.

Ah... beautiful you say... hmmmm... that's the Vesuvius out then ;-)


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MrShades said:


> No Sir, what you want is a pump that acts like a lever.... Vesuvius, Slayer, etc.
> 
> Ah... beautiful you say... hmmmm... that's the Vesuvius out then ;-)


Classic with a dimmer switch ?

Vesuvius isn't beautiful

It's " majestic "


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

D_Evans said:


> Let me put it this way.
> 
> I have a pump machine, and I really REALLY want a lever machine.
> 
> I dont even drink espresso that much, but they are beautiful things, and quiet as a mouse.


Let me put it this way.

I have a pump machine, and I don't really want a lever machine.

I enjoy shots from them as my 'bit on the side', but i'm a pump boy. I like pumping.

If you want a quiet pump, get a rotary.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

MrShades said:


> No Sir, what you want is a pump that acts like a lever.... Vesuvius, Slayer, etc.
> 
> Ah... beautiful you say... hmmmm... that's the Vesuvius out then ;-)


After I buy my Mansion in Barbados...


----------



## dougie todd (Feb 4, 2014)

Bought an expobar db for my first machine, have used my dad's btc before and had a delonghi for a bit.

My opinion is go for the machine that will give you the least hassle to make a good coffee. I really thought about it for a good while and I didn't want to temp surf or to have to wait between extracting and steaming or to waste time and money upgrading later so I bought a db straight Off the bat from bb and I don't regret my choice of machine or supplier, very happy and have no plans to upgrade anything. The milk coffee and the espresso are far better than anything I've had in a chain cafe and as good as if not slightly better than the artisan cafes I've tried in Edinburgh which is more than good enough for something that is a second hobby to me.

Our water is perfect here so I will rarely have to de-scale, put some thought into how often you will need to De scale as some machines are apparently a nightmare... As I said, I don't really need to worry about that problem.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Could I recommend you take a serious look at the Fracino Cherub in the FS section, considering the condition and mods £400 is a very generous sale price and would save you all the trouble of trying to get an old machine back on its legs. It's also much better looking


----------



## daraghoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Hey Dylan, thanks again for all your help. Just in from work so looks like I missed out on the Cherub but I'll keep a look out on the for sale thread. I'm too tired to go near the machine tonight so I'll look at it during the week. I've a feeling that it may be clogged pipes ... quiet a bit visible in the clear pipes running from the tank!


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

daraghoc said:


> Hey Dylan, thanks again for all your help. Just in from work so looks like I missed out on the Cherub but I'll keep a look out on the for sale thread. I'm too tired to go near the machine tonight so I'll look at it during the week. I've a feeling that it may be clogged pipes ... quiet a bit visible in the clear pipes running from the tank!


I'm not the right person to advise on how to sort that out, others here have done full refurbs of machines clogged with scale, so with any luck they will see this.


----------

