# Packaging - do people care if foil, plastic, compostable, recyclable?



## Mpbradford (Jan 28, 2020)

Looking for some guidance from people who buy postage/retail beans.

At the moment I serve local customers with a tin refill system, so no packaging at all. This is one of my business brands. I'm looking at affordability of recyclable or compostable 250g pouches.

I'm looking into stage two of my scale up and need to work with retail packaging, to be sold via local post office and gift shop. Don't want to manage tin swaps in that environment.

When you are buying coffee, does the packaging type and disposal guidance drive your choice - or is the bean and flavour description the main driver?

Would you pay a 50p/250g premium for a eco packaging pouch?

I would really appreciate a lot of short feedback, perhaps avoiding a debate on packaging.


----------



## Zeak (Jun 12, 2017)

Do care and stay away from the oldschool paper-foil packaging a la Rave. Horsham has decent looking/feeling plastic which is recyclable. 
I would pay 50p premium.


----------



## Mpbradford (Jan 28, 2020)

Thanks Zeak


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Unfortunately,I could not careless. Surely the lot to target is the agency responsible for food packaging. Would not pay extra for it. The coffee is more important to me, than the packaging. I suspect you already know the answer to this. Those who have green interests will support, those who do not......


----------



## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

> When you are buying coffee, does the packaging type and disposal guidance drive your choice


 Yes, i avoid hipster premium packed goods. If i want to save the world, i buy local.



> Would you pay a 50p/250g premium for a eco packaging pouch?


 No. There is no such thing as "Eco" packaging.


----------



## Mpbradford (Jan 28, 2020)

Thanks dfk41


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Yes, i avoid hipster premium packed goods. If i want to save the world, i buy local.
> 
> No. There is no such thing as "Eco" packaging.


 Genuine question What's hipster packaging


----------



## Mpbradford (Jan 28, 2020)

@Blue_Cafe I think packaging can serve many purposes. I have a few concepts. But packaging can serve as a mode of transport - no valve, no airtight seal for 2 day transit. Packaging is also is important post roast for degassing. Packaging for home storage is another matter. I agree there are limited options that can take care of all these functionalities - but if you break them down, there may be solutions for postal/retail packaging that is 100% recyclable without any ambiguity with your local council recycling.

Thanks for your reply and opinion


----------



## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Mrboots2u said:


> Genuine question What's hipster packaging


 Form 1st


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Yes it's important. When I buy from someone new (which is all the time atm), I don't want to see excessive packaging (some of the companies use bags, within boxes, within harder boxes). I'm not going to buy again from companies like that, there's too much choice. I also want to see recyclable or compostable packaging, that's a must. It's not a factor in me buying first time (as I won't know until get the beans), but it's a factor in me going back. 50p extra seems a lot per bag, but if the coffee is good people won't notice or care. Definitely factor that in.


----------



## Rapid (Jun 12, 2020)

Just typed a long reply and then re read your last line 😂

My feedback - think about who your customers that would be buying your product (from post office/gift shop) and consider if they're the same target audience as on here.

I'm not sure if that demographic would be as fussed in recyclable packaging as say, the 'young baristas' of today.

Edit: Also contact some of the retailers you're targeting - some shops may have a policy/preference themselves.


----------



## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Rapid said:


> Just typed a long reply and then re read your last line 😂


 I did the same lol.


----------



## Mpbradford (Jan 28, 2020)

Thanks @Rapid and @Blue_Cafe

Very good points. I'm not ready for the barista set yet, although I have a couple in my current customer base.

Thanks @CocoLoco. So eco friendly is key to your retention - clear. Coffee would have to be good or I'm wasting my time.

Anyone with experience of cardboard/paper package and transfer to branded tin model?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I only care that the packaging protects the coffee fully and ideally a minimum amount is used.

I remain unconvinced that everything supposedly recycled is, I'm also uncomfortable with lots of the ECO terms used because I'm not sure how ECO some of the stuff is. Certain tests I've conducted would seem to indicate that in some eco packaging coffee can stale very fast and even if transferred to better storage, doesn't keep as long.


----------



## Mpbradford (Jan 28, 2020)

Thanks @DavecUK

I tend to agree technically with what you are saying. I worked in the packaging industry for 3 years and meeting needs of degassing, freshness etc is hard with eco solutions. There has to be a compromise on barrier (UV/odour/water/oxygen) vs Recyclable /compostability.

But there are better solutions for the environment than others - that's what I'm interested to explore.


----------



## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Sort of a "nice to have"....

I wouldn't specifically include it in any decision making.
I certainly wouldn't "actively" pay 50p extra for it 
- although if 50p were added to the price for it "invisibly" ....
- 50p dearer beans wouldn't immediately turn me away...
(price also isn't a specific criteria for me - beyond "You are having a laugh" pricing)

At the risk of getting slapped wrists - I do perceive (some) "Eco blurb" as "Virtue Signalling" (or possibly straight out "marketing")


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mpbradford said:


> But there are better solutions for the environment than others - that's what I'm interested to explore.


 I don't think the real damage is being done by Coffee packaging to be honest...You might even see every coffee bag with unground coffee beans as an eco success..

It's the big things we forget and the little things we worry about:

Amazon Rain forest destruction










Chernobyl










Tsar Bomba










Overfishing


----------



## Ozzyjohn (May 31, 2020)

Genuine question from me. Do freshly roasted beans need to be in a valved bag for the two days they spend in transit from roasting to my door?

I would prefer truly recyclable packaging (re usable would be better still). A hidden premium of 50p would not affect my purchase decisions for a bag of coffee.

Regards,
John


----------



## Mpbradford (Jan 28, 2020)

@Ozzyjohn

I think there is a lot of debate on that topic. If you are degassing in transit or at home, at a certain point you change from degassing to degrading and you might not know when that switch happens. Also, for espresso you need quite some degassing (especially for fruity light roasts) but for grind/pour over it's less sensitive. For delivered ground, the valve worries me personally.

Great feedback BTW to all so far, thanks.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

There are two types of valves, one for ground and one for wholebean. You can use the ground one for whole bean, but not vice versa.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I would pay extra for the reusable & returnable tins/jars, etc, maybe through a pre-paid postal return service.

Otherwise, I wouldn't pay any extra for changes in packaging, whether recyclable, or not. I don't appreciate the way the customer apparently incurs the guilt when it comes to recycling, when vendors do not enforce/monitor success of the system & have a tendency to go overboard with packaging in terms of a bag, in a box, wrapped in tissue, with a card (repeating label info, or worse, no label on the bag itself), in another box. The first step to reducing waste, is not to make it in the first place.

If the beans aren't roasted well, it doesn't matter if they are delivered through nothing more than telekenesis, I wouldn't buy them.


----------



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

I have done a LOT of research in to this and as far as I can tell there are no curbside recyclable packaging products on the market.

Plenty that say they are eco friendly etc and some say recyclable but the reality is that they have to be processed at a special plants to do so and I suspect the amount of consumers that realise this is very small and the amount of bags that are actually recycled is even smaller.

Same can be said for compostable and biodegradable "solutions".


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

....and if you're posting beans, make sure they fit through a letterbox.


----------



## Mpbradford (Jan 28, 2020)

Thanks @Black Cat Coffee And @MWJB

Recyclable 4 is only useful if universally recycled. I like what Horsham suggest regarding positing back multiple bags for terra cycle recycling. But should the consumer have to go to this length?

Any experience with "non storage" suitable packaging that should be decanted into suitable tin upon delivery? Any paper/cardboard solutions that are post friendly?

In other words a sacrificial, but 100% recyclable postage bag. No moisture/odour/UV barrier from mixed plastics - just PE or paper.

Would people invest in personal storage to be sure of recyclability and no need for fancy multi material packaging?


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> I have done a LOT of research in to this and as far as I can tell there are no curbside recyclable packaging products on the market.
> 
> Plenty that say they are eco friendly etc and some say recyclable but the reality is that they have to be processed at a special plants to do so and I suspect the amount of consumers that realise this is very small and the amount of bags that are actually recycled is even smaller.
> 
> Same can be said for compostable and biodegradable "solutions".


 Are solutions like Kraft Compostable bags rubbish? I've noticed more of the packaging I get these days is 'compostable', is that not the way forward (given the eco footprint of recycling too)?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mpbradford said:


> Thanks @Black Cat Coffee And @MWJB
> 
> Recyclable 4 is only useful if universally recycled. I like what Horsham suggest regarding positing back multiple bags for terra cycle recycling. But should the consumer have to go to this length?
> 
> ...


 I ordered from Horsham fairly recently, I had nothing regarding return posting of packaging?

The packaging must be reasonably airtight, never had good experiences with paper bags.

Not keen on transferring to tins at home/work...means having multiple tin/jars & labelling issues (have lots, but never use them). I prefer to keep the beans in the resealable vessel they arrived in, until finished.


----------



## Zeak (Jun 12, 2017)

MWJB said:


> I ordered from Horsham fairly recently, I had nothing regarding return posting of packaging?
> The packaging must be reasonably airtight, never had good experiences with paper bags.
> Not keen on transferring to tins at home/work...means having multiple tin/jars & labelling issues (have lots, but never use them). I prefer to keep the beans in the resealable vessel they arrived in, until finished.


Here's an article on their site regarding their packaging/recycling.

https://www.horshamcoffeeroaster.co.uk/pages/recycling


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Zeak said:


> Here's an article on their site regarding their packaging/recycling.
> 
> https://www.horshamcoffeeroaster.co.uk/pages/recycling


 A pre-paid return envelope with the beans would have ensured that happened.


----------



## Zeak (Jun 12, 2017)

MWJB said:


> A pre-paid return envelope with the beans would have ensured that happened.


Definitely


----------



## gm031193 (Apr 17, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> I don't think the real damage is being done by Coffee packaging to be honest...You might even see every coffee bag with unground coffee beans as an eco success..
> 
> It's the big things we forget and the little things we worry about:
> 
> Amazon Rain forest destruction


 I agree here. Even if you wiped out the carbon footprint of all the coffee packaging in the world I'm sure it would be a drop in the ocean compared to deforestation, overfishing etc.

I think that the growing of coffee itself (local environmental impacts, air miles etc.) should be of more environmental concern than the packaging it comes in.

I do a bit to try and minimise my 'carbon footprint', paying attention to the origin of coffee packing isnt currently one of those things, maybe it should be (as someone else has already said I do think its stupid when the coffee comes in a bag, in a box, in a larger box)


----------



## hhgclark (Oct 2, 2016)

The fact that there are big problems in the world doesn't mean we should stop trying to solve every other problem. Especially if someone with 3yrs in packaging comes along with the will and the smarts to give this particular one a go. At least let's not ask him to clean up Chernobyl. 🤷‍♂️

You might find an interesting cross section of buyers on the forum as they're hugely quality sensitive and some might have a eco sensitive mindset also. I personally would and have paid explicit additional amounts when buying coffee to reduce the package impact. I have also had bad experiences where the desire to reduce packaging impacts on coffee quality. I'd be super interested in my hobby having less of an impact. Looking forward to what you come up with.


----------



## Mpbradford (Jan 28, 2020)

Thanks @hhgclark

Yes I fully appreciate that the landscape is broad on opinion, hence the poll of opinions today. I have my personal opinion and it is that anything that can be done to minimise waste is a good thing, but not at the cost of the primary purpose - which is to sell well roasted speciality coffee. I can see this is going to take some careful research and consideration.


----------



## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

Zeak said:


> Do care and stay away from the oldschool paper-foil packaging a la Rave. Horsham has decent looking/feeling plastic which is recyclable.
> I would pay 50p premium.


I order from Rave and it seems to be only paper pouches (if they're foil as well I've not noticed, or they're not?) apart from last month where they sent my 250g orders out in soft plastic which I absolutely hated.

Brown paper for me all the way, and no I wouldn't pay extra for hip packages

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


----------



## Stu Beck (May 31, 2020)

CocoLoco said:


> Are solutions like Kraft Compostable bags rubbish? I've noticed more of the packaging I get these days is 'compostable', is that not the way forward (given the eco footprint of recycling too)?


 Most compostable packaging solutions require an industrial composter to break down the PLA materials, very few local authorities currently have this facility so they end up in landfill. At least they break down faster that plastic and foil, but they're no silver bullet unfortunately.

🤞 a solution comes along in the very near future!



Mpbradford said:


> But there are better solutions for the environment than others - that's what I'm interested to explore.


 Kudos for offering the refill option to your customers and best of luck with the scale up 👍

I'd pay a small premium for sustainable packaging if the beans were also decent. It's a positive point of difference for consumers and the market is only going to keep growing.


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Aah I see thanks for clarifying.



Stu Beck said:


> 🤞 a solution comes along in the very near future!


 Yep, hopefully ASAP. At some point this sort of trade off thankfully won't be a choice, but until then it's good thoughtful companies (like I assume the OP) are making the effort to at least explore the options.


----------



## Mpbradford (Jan 28, 2020)

Thanks @Stu Beck and @CocoLoco for the positive encouragement.

My local refill concept is very popular, but my target market is where I'm prepared to walk to deliver - so never going to make a real business. Only other concept that I'm exploring behind the packaging is to franchise my local concept to generate more local refill businesses.


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Mpbradford said:


> Thanks @Stu Beck and @CocoLoco for the positive encouragement.
> 
> My local refill concept is very popular, but my target market is where I'm prepared to walk to deliver - so never going to make a real business. Only other concept that I'm exploring behind the packaging is to franchise my local concept to generate more local refill businesses.


 Local refill concept is a good idea. I was buying beans around London before Covid (rather than mail order like now) and I would like to see a concept like plastic bag use at supermarkets for coffee beans. You get one long life bag, even a tin (although I didn't know about this before I saw Crankhouse doing it) and then you take it back to get the refill. If you don't have it, your coffee is more expensive.

Good luck with the project.


----------



## Mpbradford (Jan 28, 2020)

What about Earthpouch from Sirane? Any positive/negative experiences?


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Rave addressing some concerns and sharing their experience on this topic in their latest newsletter. Good to hear they're dumping the clips soon.

https://ravecoffee.co.uk/blogs/news/lets-talk-about-packaging


----------



## Mpbradford (Jan 28, 2020)

@CocoLoco Yes, explaining the compromise and a bit about mis information in the industry.

i think there is a solution out there, but it's not to combine all features (degassing, barrier, zip and end of life considerations) into one packaging concept.

I believe that there is a solution for all of the above, but would require the consumer to accept a bit of faff.

Degassing done by roaster.

100% recyclable (in your council bin) with postage/shipping packaging

Home sealed container or degassing bag (that you reuse)


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Mpbradford said:


> would require the consumer to accept a bit of faff.


 I think some options discussed here and in your post would be very workable in the short term. Many of these roasters are on the case like Rave I imagine, exploring options, trying to find environmentally friendly solutions. Many also seem to be younger people who know that their market is increasingly younger and more socially/environmentally conscious. (Actually Rave, more than any other big roaster, seem to be geared to a younger crowd). Of course quality of product is paramount in pushing sales, but they and their future customers want the same changes.


----------



## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

My approach is to try and buy in larger quantities and then use re-usable containers. I'm sure that the materials for 4x250g bags on even the best options are worse than most 1k options. So rather than the bags material, for me it's about the packaging it's posted in.


----------



## SafetyThird (Aug 16, 2020)

Ultimately it's the coffee that's important. That said, yes, for me, recyclable or compostable packaging is important.

For example, I have two dogs and buy their food in bulk. It comes in frozen 1kg boxes and those boxes are completely compostable on a home compost pile/bin. I buy about 100kg every few months and the boxes they come in are cardboard which is recyclable and last year they changed from polystyrene insulation, which despite the 'recyclable' stamp on it isn't accepted anywhere, to a new wool-based insulation. When you have enough of them (which I do each time because I order a freezer full in bulk) they arrange to have a courier pick them up if you pack them back up in one of the shipping boxes. Once received you receive a credit on your account towards your next order.

It's a bit of a faff but it's an important point to me. Now, if the packaging you're going to use is recyclable but not at the average curb side, which seems to be most coffee packaging advertised as recyclable, why not have prepaid envelopes which can be added to the order. So, for example, I order 250g a month on subscription, then every X months, I get an A4 stamped envelope included with the order to return the previous several months packets and you then send them to industrial recycling when you have enough. Or the stamped envelope is an orderable item at no cost on your usual website, that way someone with a more irregular order can get one included in an order when they have a specified number, say 10, of bags put aside.

This adds some hassle but could be a good selling point. I would choose a company that has either recyclable at home packaging, or one that allows me to recycle by return of post, over a company that doesn't because this is important to me. For you it involves keeping a stock of appropriate envelopes and having storage space for returned packaging until you have enough for whatever industrial recycling company you use to collect from you. A small home style trash compactor might be a cheap way for you to reduce the volume of that packaging manageably.

Hope that helps.


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

SafetyThird said:


> I get an A4 stamped envelope included with the order to return the previous several months packets and you then send them to industrial recycling when you have enough. Or the stamped envelope is an orderable item at no cost on your usual website, that way someone with a more irregular order can get one included in an order when they have a specified number, say 10, of bags put aside.


 Another good idea. Build up the packets then send them all back in one go. I imagine at some point roasters will implement one of these sort of options. They will probably pass on the costs but as the demographic moves on, customers won't mind, or, given how prices will rise, wont notice anyway.


----------



## Mpbradford (Jan 28, 2020)

@SafetyThird great idea and can be really simple to administer. It give the consumer the choice, without too much faff. Terra cycle etc is an added cost that would have to be factored in as well as return postage.

My favourite idea right now is a cardboard cube that is posted through the letter box and immediately decanted into my bespoke storage tins.


----------



## garethuk (May 2, 2019)

@Mpbradford great question, I would definitely pay extra for recyclable package, doesn't have to be completely green, but should be recyclable. In fact in 3 years of buying coffee online, the only time I have contacted a seller with anything near a complaint was do to unrecyclable packaging. My understanding is that many coffee pouches can be recycled with the plastic bags in supermarkets.


----------



## RoyB (Apr 22, 2020)

Im late 50s. For the first half of my life we recycled everything. Plastic was not much of a thing.

Fast forward. It the later generations who really embraced throw away single use

Thats just background.

Now i look for style and substance.

Square Mile has both in spades. Great coffee. Well designed packaging that is functional.

Just got some Hasbean. Yet to taste but they pay attention to packaging design. They care about it as much as the product.

Thats how I choose. just me.

Ive done my recycling. Ill be dead if the sea levels rise....if......im a bit of a sceptic to be honest.

so.....design and roast it right for success...... anything else is a bonus.....


----------

