# Sage Duo Temp Pro - Alternatives to expensive original cleaner agents



## Rasmusap (Jun 22, 2018)

I have had my Duo Temp Pro for a while now and really like it. However I am not so happy with the overly expensive original cleaner agents for backflushing and descaling. Water filters as well.

Are there any alternatives to these? Preferably some that use the same chemicals so the machine won't be harmed in any way / so the warranty is not affected.

//Rasmus


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## Apatche64 (Jun 24, 2017)

Here you go; use these for mine









https://www.amazon.co.uk/Urnex-Espresso-Machine-Cleaning-Tablets/dp/B004L8RTEM/ref=pd_ys_c_rfy_rp_all_0?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B004L8RTEM&pd_rd_r=S5SNM1J1QFNPRNRCKXZW&pd_rd_w=RMqac&pd_rd_wg=jbmGb&psc=1&refRID=JR7KRTD15Q6H29J8AD5X

I get the charcoal filters off eBay too ...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Apatche64 said:


> Here you go; use these for mine
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is for back flushing. I do use the Puly Cafe version of the tablets, a larger size than the Sage ones on my DB. Never been sure about what to use for descaling on their thermoblock models. The descaler doesn't get long to do it's thing unlike boiler machines. Sage state that theirs contains sulphamic acid which is a pretty vigorous descaler. Other makes do not seem to give people a clue as to what's in them.







The percentage of the various ingredients on the Sage packets are rather odd as they don't add up and seem to allow a lot of variation - otherwise I might have bought the ingredients and mixed my own.

Doh - I have just noticed that web site prices seem to have changed. Free shipping if over £10 and cleaning things £13.95 a piece so full set of 3 including filters is £41.85 as postage has been included in each item. My recollection is that buying all 3 did work out rather a lot less than this at one point in time and did give free shipping - not totally sure though. Getting from other sources wasn't so attractive then.

So you can gather from that I did buy these from Sage but in my view current prices are taking the piss. Maybe they are into price profit graphs. There is an argument that if companies sell too cheaply they sell lots more but don't make any more money so they have become busy fools.







Current prices seem to reverse that and we become buying fools but using other things may have warrantee issues.

John

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## khampal (Feb 6, 2017)

There is no backflushing on the DTP - it has no 3 way solenoid valve.

You can mix the hot water and citric acid powder in the tank and run that through the group and steam wand to descale it.

On top of that, I would take the shower screen off regularly and clean the gunk off around there.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

khampal said:


> There is no backflushing on the DTP - it has no 3 way solenoid valve.
> 
> You can mix the hot water and citric acid powder in the tank and run that through the group and steam wand to descale it.
> 
> On top of that, I would take the shower screen off regularly and clean the gunk off around there.


Sage use a rubber disk to block off the portafilter with a small hole in it so "backflushing" of a sort is possible and details of how to do it are in the manual. Maybe it's pointless doing it.

The Sage descaler is 30 to 60% malic acid, 10 to 30% sulphamic acid and 1 to 10% tartaric acid. I use one on a hot water dispenser that uses citric instead of sulphamic I tried it on a very lightly scaled kettle - it took well over 1/2 hr to remove it. The hot water dispenser instruction mentions 20 min with the same style of descaler - more like correct time for a boiler in an espresso machine. On thermoblock type machines the descaler simply runs though with negligible soak times.

Sulphamic acid is a pretty rapid descaler. Seems it can be used to brush.scale off. It's reckoned to be as effective as hydrochloric acid - as used in cement cleaner.

Citric acid is mentioned here






Some sites reckon vinegar is more effective. That's acetic acid. Sage use a couple of fruit acids and sulphamic. Some just use a mix of fruit acids.

The Sage acids are available on ebay but malic is used by people who brew things so prices are probably higher than they could be.

Puly descaler is an option but as it can probably be used on lots of different machines it may not contain certain acids. It's the one I would use short of buying Sage's or making my own.

John

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## khampal (Feb 6, 2017)

That isn't backflushing though. As you mention the disk has a hole in it so it's pretty pointless. I suspect it's just to clean the shower screen, but it's far easier and more effective to just remove it.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> <snip> Other makes do not seem to give people a clue as to what's in them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you 100% sure of that sweeping statement?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Are you 100% sure of that sweeping statement?


What an utterly wonderful contribution to the thread. Tell me what does the words "seem to" mean?

John

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> What an utterly wonderful contribution to the thread. Tell me what does the words "seem to" mean?
> 
> John
> 
> -


To me it means you are trying to introduce speculation as fact.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> To me it means you are trying to introduce speculation as fact.


Just goes to show - actually I spent some time trying to find a close equivalent and failed -







for the reason I mentioned.

John

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## dmreeceuk (Apr 18, 2018)

khampal said:


> That isn't backflushing though. As you mention the disk has a hole in it so it's pretty pointless. I suspect it's just to clean the shower screen, but it's far easier and more effective to just remove it.


I agree. I can't see that using the disk and tablet does anything that a wipe with a cloth doesn't do better.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

I got the impression that the tablet sits in a little ring in the blanking disk and blocks that small hole until the tablet is dissolved. I assume that it creates enough resistance in the system to send the cleaning agent back through at least some of the pipework. Does the DTP have an OPV?

You deffo still need to take the shower screen off to get rid of the sediment build up but I thought the cleaning tablets were supposed to get rid of the oils and gunk that might build up in the pipes close to the coffee.


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## dmreeceuk (Apr 18, 2018)

mctrials23 said:


> I got the impression that the tablet sits in a little ring in the blanking disk and blocks that small hole until the tablet is dissolved. I assume that it creates enough resistance in the system to send the cleaning agent back through at least some of the pipework. Does the DTP have an OPV?
> 
> You deffo still need to take the shower screen off to get rid of the sediment build up but I thought the cleaning tablets were supposed to get rid of the oils and gunk that might build up in the pipes close to the coffee.


I think it might get rid of the oils but cant see how it can dissolve the coffee grounds/gunk. I agree it seems to remove stains but you are right you need to remove the screen and give it a wipe.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Joey had an interesting idea on when to descale. Keep an eye on the kettle and if that shows any scale descale the machine as well.

Our kettles seem to last for years and years and having lived in the same house for 30 odd year never ever had the need to descale one. Can't remember my parents ever descaling one either. So looked in the kettle and could see a few very light patches of scale. I used Astonish descaler on it as it's the usual mix of fruit acids, liquid too, cheap and suitable for coffee machines. Savers usually have it. It took ages to get rid of the scale. Something circa 40mins if I remember correctly. Definitely more than 1/2hr.

This made me wonder about descaling the BE as the water doesn't spend anything like that time in the parts that get hot so decided to use the Sage one as I couldn't find a definite equivalent.

Then we switched from a kettle to a hot water dispenser. It can be used without a pour through filter so that's what we do. It pumps set volumes into a boiler and heats it so more like a boiler espresso machine. It also comes up with descale now and again. We bought it mid December 17 and it just came up with it's second descale message. It might have some clever way of doing that but I suspect it's just a count of the amount of water that has been boiled. It used by 3 people all day to make tea so boils more than the DB does. I've decided to use that as an indicator of when to descale my DB using Puly descaler. I set the DB for harder water than we actually get and it still hasn't requested a descale - 3 to 5 or so drinks a day including the hot water for them. Tea probably comes out at around 10 or more a day.

So I would say that the answer to Sage's over priced descaler is use something else more often. There are comments about concerning scale and Sage machines but there's no way of knowing if people have actually done it often enough. Only problem on a DB is the time it takes. I'd say the best part of an hour. The smaller machines are much much quicker to do.

The dispenser has 3 temperature settings including one for coffee. I still use the espresso machine for hot water to keep the water in it's tank turning over. The DB is refilled daily, sometimes more than once. The BE was generally filled more than once a day. That way I feel I don't need to worry about giving the tank a very thorough clean now and again.

John

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