# Raw Whole Milk [Unpasteurised]....



## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

Been shopping in our local market in Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, and found a stall selling raw whole milk. Had to give it a try. Owner/Vendor passionate about the product and emphasising its health benefits. She says pasteurising not only eliminates many of the good bacteria and organisms which prevent the body processing the milk, sugar and lactose, BUT raw it is less fattening in the end than pasteurised semi or skimmed, since our bodies can't process the fat, and HIGHER sugar levels they contain......

This was news to me, though she's bound to be evangelical about it!!

May not be news to many others here in Coffee Forums Land? I did know latterly that Homogenised or blended milk is less easy to digest since the fats are altered in the process (?) and remain sitting around ones middle age, ever expanding waistline.

I'm no health foods freak, with beard, sandals and wholewheat jumper, just a normal [!] average old git, and at £2.50 a litre it isn't cheap.

Got it home and made a couple of flatties and wow, what a rich, smooth texture in no time. The flatties were incredibly rich and full in the mouth and creamy without adding anything or overwhelming the coffee [butterworth's Colombia Villa Esperanza - what a fabulously rich and smooth roast, easy to get excellent repeatable shots too]

So, by drinking raw full fat milk I'll get a reduced waistline [?], rich smooth flatties and a thinner wallet....

Anyone else any experience of this? I searched the Forums and couldn't find a previous post to tag this one too?

Keen to know,

Ian

link below if anyone's interested??

http://www.the-calf-at-foot-dairy.co.uk/raw-milk-facts.html


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

IanP said:


> raw it is less fattening in the end than pasteurised semi or skimmed, since our bodies can't process the fat, and HIGHER sugar levels they contain.....


Got my sceptic face on reading that. No doubt raw is better though


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

I would think that drinking a pint of one or other would be almost identical in terms of fat gain. However I would agree would undoubtedly be best from a nutrition stand point.

However theres also the thought that should we really drink it anyway! Think we are the only species that drinks another s milk! I try and limit milk intake unless I really fancy a flat white or have milk after exercise when the sugars can be more readily used.

I also remember reading goats milk is more like human s! ( By I remember reading it I mean I probably made it up!!)


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## Nijntje (Oct 2, 2013)

Lets hope the bacteria don't find out...


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

To start with, a nice quote



> "To make dairy products low fat, it's not enough to remove the fat. You then have to go to great lengths to preserve the body or creamy texture by working in all kinds of food additives. In the case of low-fat or skim milk, that usually means adding powdered milk. But powdered milk contains oxidized cholesterol, which scientists believe is much worse for your arteries than ordinary cholesterol, so food makers sometimes compensate by adding antioxidants, further complicating what had been a simple one-ingredient whole food. Also, removing the fat makes it that much harder for your body to absorb the fat-soluble vitamins that are one of the reasons to drink milk in the first place." - Michael Pollan


The more you remove fat or pasteurise milk the more goodness you remove from it. You would expect semi-skimmed/skimmed milk to just have stuff taken out, but the problem is, as above, that the flavour is so dramatically altered (and the colour, it turns blue) that you have to add things back in to get the flavour back. Much like in the fruit industry where 'flavour packs' are added to concentrated juice to give it some kind of flavour back, although you wont see that on the label.

The downside here is that Raw-milk is dangerous, in fact raw-milk is the leading cause of death when it comes to food stuffs.



> Raw milk is responsible for nearly three times more hospitalizations than any other food borne disease outbreak, making it one of the world's most dangerous food products, according to Hannah Gould, Ph.D., senior epidemiologist with the CDC's Enteric Diseases Epidemiology Branch (http://www.seattleorganicrestaurants.com/vegan-whole-foods/raw-milk-homogenized-pasteurized-whole-fat-low-fat-skimmed-milk-infertility/)


Milk is naturally at the right temperature to carry bacteria both good and bad, good farm hygiene reduces this risk (Raw-milk from a highly-commercial farm that cares little for it animals NEEDS pasturisation to make its food product safe, much like the american beef industry needs to add amonia to its burgers to kill the ecoli they carry) but it cannot eliminate it. I would not have wanted to be drinking raw milk during the foot and mouth outbreak in this country...

Saying that however we have a holiday house in France that is on a farm and we got RAW milk still warm from the cows udders, and I drank that every year without ever getting ill (to my memory)


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> To start with, a nice quote
> 
> Saying that however we have a holiday house in France that is on a farm and we got RAW milk still warm from the cows udders, and I drank that every year without ever getting ill (to my memory)


Yeah I think that's the only way I would drink it certainly would be cautious giving it to kids


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

kikapu said:


> Yeah I think that's the only way I would drink it certainly would be cautious giving it to kids


My parents certainly weren't ^_^

But it was from a good farm that we saw in operation every day, they only had about 100 cows. I dare say a bit of bacteria did get in out guts, but its needed to grow up into a healthy adult, what I didn't get from the cows milk I almost certainly would have got from eating snails or playing with the farm dogs









These days big farms let their animals get sick and just treat the sickness, rather than eliminating the cause, because this way round is cheaper, this is what is dangerous, and this is what causes things like foot and mouth and e-coli outbreaks.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

I had some serious poisoning from unpast'd milk in Hungary 20 odd years ago. Never been so poorly in my life.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I grew up drinking "green top" or raw milk from the local dairy delivered fresh every morning by that nowadays endangered species the milkman, I've never been ill from milk then or even now. I think that today there is far too much fuss about antibacterial this that and the other yet no concern about the chemicals we use to achieve this. and that from the prevalence of food allergies and intolerance and a huge rise in the rates of illnesses such as asthma we need to rethink this obsession and maybe letting kids play out and get dirty and graze their knees etc may in the long term help to strengthen their immune systems and not need all the antibiotics that are now so commonly used.


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## michaelg (Jul 25, 2013)

Going off on a tangent slightly, in Poland they have a few fairly mainstream beers advertised as unpasteurised. I was unaware it even was pasteurised normally but is this something our home-brewing regulars know about? Do you guys pasteurise your beers and are most 'commercial' beers pasteurised?


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## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

Interesting replies here already. Thanks for so much personal experience too. Well, I'm still here late afternoon having had 2 of the creamiest flatties I've ever made, and no ill effects ;-) Further reading from this supplier reveals a tiny herd, fed on grass, and they have 5* Hygiene Certification from the local authority too. Still, I'm sure this is what most of our grandparents and before drank all the time? It's interesting how often the tastiest cheeses are often those eaten abroad from small local rural dairies, where they most definitely don't pasteurise.

How much of this 'science' is proven though?

I tend to agree with Charliej that it's important for kids to play outside and eat dirt and crap, to build resitance and strengthen immune systems too. The home environment seems so sanitised and inert for many kids these days. Or is it just me being a grumpy old git, remembering playing outside as a kid, climbing trees and tumbling out of them, eating worms, dog biscuits, eating all sorts of stuff from my grubby paws while eating sandwiches and ice creams?

Well, let's see if I'm on here tomorrow or not!!?


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

IanP said:


> eating worms, dog biscuits, eating all sorts of stuff from my grubby paws while eating sandwiches and ice creams?
> 
> Well, let's see if I'm on here tomorrow or not!!?


Well I think eating worms and dog biscuits are less likely to kill you than RAW milk!!


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

As has been previously said raw milk when treated with respect, like any food stuff is absolutely fine to consume, after all people still eat cheese with mold deliberately put into it. Small farms that tend to just sell stuff locally rather than mass produce for the supermarkets tend to not cut any corners with their animals welfare and treat problems at source rather than wait for them to become ill and then pump them full of artificial hormones and antibiotics etc.

Some of the worlds best tasting cheeses use unpasteurised i.e. raw milk and garner praise from around the world. If we all started to buy locally produced foods then maybe the prices would become a little lower and we would all benefit healthwise. After all does anyone object to their children drinking raw milk direct from the source?


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## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

I remember drinking fresh goats milk while visiting my Aunt in Cyprus as a child, at first it looked quite revolting especially when you see where it comes from, but taste I still remember to this day. Rich, creamy and full of flavour my cousins and I had the best milk moustaches ! Come to think of it the wild honey was locally sourced which we had with the milk and my Aunt baked her own bread almost daily, with the smell, as you can imagine wafting around the house. Our diet today has gone rather plastic, maybe we should try and buy locally produced foods, at least for our health sake


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Charliej said:


> As has been previously said raw milk when treated with respect, like any food stuff is absolutely fine to consume, after all people still eat cheese with mold deliberately put into it. Small farms that tend to just sell stuff locally rather than mass produce for the supermarkets tend to not cut any corners with their animals welfare and treat problems at source rather than wait for them to become ill and then pump them full of artificial hormones and antibiotics etc.
> 
> Some of the worlds best tasting cheeses use unpasteurised i.e. raw milk and garner praise from around the world. If we all started to buy locally produced foods then maybe the prices would become a little lower and we would all benefit healthwise. After all does anyone object to their children drinking raw milk direct from the source?


Whilst I agree with most of those points I think the issue is the fact that people do actually die from drinking raw milk so there is a big potential issue with drinking it. Now of course if you get it from a good reputable source then am sure you will be fine.

As far as breast milk goes we would all be better off drinking that and doing away with cows milk! Our bodies were designed to drink that as long as its fully organic and from a traceable source dont want any old breast milk!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

kikapu said:


> Whilst I agree with most of those points I think the issue is the fact that people do actually die from drinking raw milk so there is a big potential issue with drinking it. Now of course if you get it from a good reputable source then am sure you will be fine.


Indeed they do, but its a very general statistic that states unpasteurised milk to be so dangerous (raw is a silly thing to call milk imho) as has been said, if the farm it comes from is clean the risk of it being contaminated would be much lower. It will never be as safe as pasteurised milk but it will also still have all of its goodness.

I would be surprised if unpasteurised milk from good farms could be considered anything like dangerous, especially as I drank it regularly as a child.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

kikapu said:


> Whilst I agree with most of those points I think the issue is the fact that people do actually die from drinking raw milk


Is there more of an issue with raw milk than other unpasteurised dairy products?


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

michaelg said:


> Going off on a tangent slightly, in Poland they have a few fairly mainstream beers advertised as unpasteurised. I was unaware it even was pasteurised normally but is this something our home-brewing regulars know about? Do you guys pasteurise your beers and are most 'commercial' beers pasteurised?


I seem to remember a few years back, that one of the biggest beefs that CAMRA had with the brewing industry was that much of the "keg beer" (Watneys Red Barrel) was pasteurised, but that was before they went native.

However, as I understand it, the beers that come with a hand pump are usually real un-pasteurised stuff... It goes off, the beer in the barrel is still alive.

Levers are best!

As for raw milk, I have bought it a few times at our local "foodie" market in up'n'coming Brockley, and it is interesting that the taste changes from week to week... This milk is coming from cows that eat different food, depending on the time of the year, the cream is floating on the top... (No ****!)... When I first bought my L1, I bought some for a larf, and it just wouldn't stretch at all... I tried again last summer and I found it much better, and of course it now has a "grassy" flavour...

Of course, if you steam the milk, it is effectively Pasteurised, so no prob with bugs anyway!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

jeebsy said:


> Is there more of an issue with raw milk than other unpasteurised dairy products?


The link I posted earlier suggests its responsible for 3x more hospitalisations than any other food born disease. There are few other things that we eat/drink which are so easily contaminated and at the perfect temperature for bacterial development.

These days food-stuffs are all treated to reduce the chance of disease. It used to be the case that raw egg carried a high chance of salmonella, but these days you can eat raw eggs till the cows come home and you'll be fine. The same goes for white meat like chicken, people are terrified of raw chicken, but the chance you will get ill from it is still really low, and thats all down to the anti-biotics and other bacteria-killing processes animals go through these days before they hit the shelves.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

That seems really high given its relatively rarely consumed.

I quite often have my chicken a bit under - the incidence of salmonella is much lower now and I trust my supplier. Would be a bit more hesitant about doing it with supermarket meat. In Japan you can get chicken sashimi - think the texture of totally raw chicken would be the hardest thing to deal with though.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

jeebsy said:


> That seems really high given its relatively rarely consumed.
> 
> I quite often have my chicken a bit under - the incidence of salmonella is much lower now and I trust my supplier. Would be a bit more hesitant about doing it with supermarket meat. In Japan you can get chicken sashimi - think the texture of totally raw chicken would be the hardest thing to deal with though.


I agree that its high, but milk is consumed in vast quantities around the world. Count in all the countries that are not as developed as the west and will drink un-pasturised as standard and I think you can start to see where that figure comes from.

I agree on the raw chicken thing. I have eaten a bit before and it made me gip. Mind you, sushi isn't much better.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

D_Evans said:


> I agree that its high, but milk is consumed in vast quantities around the world. Count in all the countries that are not as developed as the west and will drink un-pasturised as standard and I think you can start to see where that figure comes from.
> 
> I agree on the raw chicken thing. I have eaten a bit before and it made me gip. Mind you, sushi isn't much better.


True, didn't think of that. Raw milk sitting about in a warm climate is asking for trouble. I'd be pretty happy drinking well produced raw milk though.

With chicken is most of us seem conditioned to think of it being dangerous when raw so there's an automatic gag reflex more as a means of self preservation. Love a bit of sashimi though.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I used to work as a waiter quite a bit, and it would drive me up the wall every time someone sent back chicken because of a red vein (which don't discolour totally, even when the meat is cooked). My family even got really fretty because of a tiny bit of pink in the Turkey this year. Ahh well.

I tend to gag at any soft squishy things that have too much moisture. Mushrooms do it as well if they are in big chunks, I like them when there sliced tho. Oh and aubergine *gags*


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mushrooms and aubergine are two of my favourite veg!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mmmmm garlic mushrooms!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I'm looking at you like your crazy right now 0_o

I honestly cant see how anyone can like aubergine, but people seem to...


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Mmmmm garlic mushrooms!


Yes!

Aubergine parmigiana, baked aubergine, aubergine curry....so tasty.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I am now leaving this thread and never coming back... you ruined it


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## spune (Oct 3, 2011)

Thumbs up to mushrooms and aubergine from me!

I personally really like raw milk and buy it when I can as there's a farm that's fairly nearby that sells it. I can't comment on how it fares when heated as I drank most of it cold as it was so tasty! It's just far more flavoured, creamy and satisfying. The 'health' side of things doesn't bother me at all... Like you say D_Evans, if you trust where you believe the milk came from, then go for it.

For anyone trying to get hold of raw milk, this website might be useful.


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## AliC (Jan 9, 2014)

Sorry to drag this thread back on topic.

I picked up a copy of Caffeine magazine from our local decent coffee shop last month and it has an interesting article on the white stuff.

They taste test nine milks both when cold and stretched and compare results and how well they hold foam.

Very interesting reading if you get the chance and also how much variance there is. Particularly if you take a milky coffee, it is worth investigating what makes up to 60% of your drink....


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

sjenner said:


> ......Of course, if you steam the milk, it is effectively Pasteurised, so no prob with bugs anyway!


Very well made point, Stephen.


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

Is 65degC enough to kill all bugs though?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Btw, in that caffeine taste test the much vaunted Duchy milk came out almost bottom!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Geordie Boy said:


> Is 65degC enough to kill all bugs though?


Not quite - pasteurisation temp is 72c.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

You'd have to do a pasteurisation 'rest' for x seconds surely? By which time the milk will be ruined


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Not quite - pasteurisation temp is 72c.


The same figure is int he Wikipedia article regarding pasteurisation, but it is only kept at this temp for a very short period of time. A longer time at a slower temp may well have a similar effect. I know you are supposed to get food to 70deg to kill bacteria tho.

Gary - The milk is rapidly heated to 72deg for 15second then rapidly cooled, if that means anything in terms of your question...


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

D Evans, call me a pedant if you will but I have been led to believe that rice was actually the biggest bad guy in terms of causing food poisoning and related illnesses due to the difficulty even large industrial food manufacturers have in killing the bacteria that is inherent in some types of rice.


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## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

Blimey, had no idea that there would be such a variety of responses to my post! All interesting stuff though, so thanks for all contributions! So, by steaming my raw milk to TempTags soy temperature (I like my flatties at that temperature) I am clearly not pasteurising it, but am I destroying some of the nutrients and good bacteria in the process? Am I also removing or destroying some of the easily digestible fats too, and making it as indigestible as if it were pasteurise?

It tastes fab as it is and wonderfully rich and creamy in flatties, taking only a few seconds to steam. So might I just as well buy cheap supermarket pasteurised stuff for all the good steaming it is (maybe not) doing? Thoughts would be welcome here too please?


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## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

@ Charliej, agree that rice, once cold, can't be reheated unless to stupid temperature. Specially Chinese or Indian takeaway rice....


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

You can reheat rice no problem as long as it was quickly cooled after cooking. The problem is when it's left hanging about warm or at room temperature as its a fertile breeding ground and reheating doesn't kill the spores - once they develop they aren't going anywhere.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Charliej said:


> D Evans, call me a pedant if you will but I have been led to believe that rice was actually the biggest bad guy in terms of causing food poisoning and related illnesses due to the difficulty even large industrial food manufacturers have in killing the bacteria that is inherent in some types of rice.


D Evans was talking about death, not just food poisoning.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Charliej said:


> D Evans, call me a pedant if you will but I have been led to believe that rice was actually the biggest bad guy in terms of causing food poisoning and related illnesses due to the difficulty even large industrial food manufacturers have in killing the bacteria that is inherent in some types of rice.


Not pedantic at all, the link I posted only states it to be true, and it is not a linked, verifiable fact in any way.

I would say that the 'dangers' of rice are also overblown. I have been re-heating several day old rice my entire life, and its fine.

Left at room temp for extended periods of time its an ideal breeding ground for bacteria, but in the fridge it will last the best part of a week.

edit: I cant find anything online that even remotely suggests that milk is the leading killer when it comes to foodstuffs. The only stat that is out there a lot is that its 150x more dangerous than pasteurised milk (so not very dangerous then) and even this figure is disputed as hyperbole by the government. Would be nice to know where that link I posted got his 'fact' from.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Well it's starting to sound like the Edwina Currie inspired and overblown salmonella in eggs affair back in the late 80s, someone finds a fact it makes a great soundbite and then all of a sudden it's the most dangerous affair in the world, and these days with the global reach of the internet even easier to find verifiable facts. The 2 things that stand out to me, food/drink wise over the years that are killers are the E Coli bacterium and the Botulinum bacteria.


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## suferick (Jul 19, 2011)

Fascinating thread. As a home brewer I would not pasteurise my beer (which has, of course, been boiled before fermentation, and proper hygiene will prevent any problems) and as a cheesemaker I am still looking for a good source of unhomogenised milk, raw or not.

Can you ever see the high-end cafes offering a raw milk cappuccino?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

suferick said:


> Fascinating thread. As a home brewer I would not pasteurise my beer (which has, of course, been boiled before fermentation, and proper hygiene will prevent any problems) and as a cheesemaker I am still looking for a good source of unhomogenised milk, raw or not.
> 
> Can you ever see the high-end cafes offering a raw milk cappuccino?


Waitrose Duchy milk is unhomogenised but whether that constitutes a good source is another matter


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## suferick (Jul 19, 2011)

Yes, that's what I use currently for want of anything better


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## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

suferick said:


> Yes, that's what I use currently for want of anything better


http://www.naturalfoodfinder.co.uk/unpasteurised-raw-milk-uk

should help you locate a local supplier? Or fairly local maybe?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

IanP said:


> http://www.naturalfoodfinder.co.uk/unpasteurised-raw-milk-uk





> Sadly raw milk is illegal in Scotland


Aaarrrrgh

13 char


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Wht about mothers milk , where does that fit in?


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## Shinobi (Jun 8, 2013)

Well, I'm rather late to this subject and I feel both sides have been very eloquent in putting forward their side. 

I have to put my hand up and state that I am a 'Raw' milk convert! I was very lucky to live in town that had a milk round from a local farm that did fresh unpasteurised milk http://www.hookandson.co.uk and they were always happy to talk about the subject until the cows came home. (Sorry!)

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is the fact that supermarket milk is homogenised, this is why you no longer see an inch of fat at the top of the bottle. This process spreads the fat particles through the whole bottle people think it's lower fat. This process makes the fat particles smaller, so it is harder for your body to filter it out. So even though the pint is lower in fat as a percentage, your body takes more on board.

I always buy a couple of pints for the kids as I believe it's the best type of milk to give them to grow big and strong.

That and it tastes bloody lovely!


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## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

Wow! Looks like we've milked this thread (ouch!) 

Interesting to see the various opinions it has drawn out.

Going to speak with the lady on her market stall tomorrow, enquire about steaming changing the properties or not, and buy some more raw milk.

Cheers everyone!


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

Well I've worked with a girl for the best part of 15 years and she used to bring fresh straight from the udder milk in to work every day as she was brought up and lived on a farm right up until the day she got married and left home. I tried it and it was lush! Oh and she never once became ill through drinking it, and she was and is as thin as a latt.

Personally I think we have gone too far down the 'clean everything within an inch of its life because if we don't it might kill us' road. I once saw a programme where a woman took two chopping boards and cut up a load of meat on them. One she washed in piping hot water and the other she scrubbed really well with anti bacterial stuff. She then sent them off to a lab to see which was the one with least bugs on. The upshot was the one cleaned with piping hot water was as bugless as the one cleaned with costly anti bacterial scrub.

Like many on here of a certain age I was brought up in a clean house but not sanitary by any means. We didn't have anti-bacterial wipes my mother never washed her hands every time she touched an egg (believe me my brother's ex-wife was a school cook and that was one rule she had to stick to rigidly). Very little of our food was pre-packed sealed and washed; the veg had dirt on it from the grocers the meat was fresh from the butchers and as for the ten second rule if you dropped anything on the floor....that just didn't exist!

I'm sure we are breeding immunity out of the people of the western world. In my years at school from 5 to 16 I don't remember ever knowing a kid that had a nut allergy, and I knew only one who had asthma.

We never had CJD or mad cow disease because cows were fed cow food like grass not other animals.

At home I eat and cook organic meat and veg and use as much organic produce as I can which means no chemicals no antibiotics no injections and I have never had a food contaminated related illness that I am aware of. I grow some of my own veg and have never put a chemical on any of them and I'm still here to tell the tale.

I'm not saying we shouldn't make sure food is safe as there are some very nasty bugs out there and science can help, but sourced from reliable places un-molested food is as healthy as can be. We've all been frightened into thinking a bit of dirt will hurt when in fact we still aren't sure what harm some of the chemicals, steroids etc used in farming and the food industry are doing to us.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

It is an undeniable fact that the introduction of eliminating bacteria in the food chain has dramatically reduced outbreaks of food born disease and death. As mentioned earlier however this is a method of curing the symptom and not the cause (i.e. killing the disease, not the conditions that create the disease, because its cheaper).

This is not to say we haven't gone too far in the anti-bacteria direction, rather than striking a happy medium. It's also not to say that curing the cause is not also a perfectly viable option, a healthy farm will undoubtedly produce perfectly safe milk.


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