# Grace PL81T impressions



## Danny Dicks

I was a visitor to the forums for a few weeks before purchasing a new espresso set-up. I found the information here extremely useful, and have joined in order to give something back. I bought a Eureka Mignon Manuale and Lelit Grace (PL81T) machine, replacing a Krups Expert and De Longhi Scultura that had served me well for two and a half years. Here are my comments on the Lelit Grace PL81T for anyone considering it. Note that I'm an amateur compared with many on the forums.



One of my buying criteria was that the machine could cope with a mug without my having to remove the drip tray (and make a mess). I know that probably sounds heretical to many here, but hey ho. There are *very few* prosumer machines that can cope with filter-to-base heights of more than 8cm. The Lelit VIP range (of which the Grace PL81T is the entry-level machine) has a clearance of around 10cm. A removable wire stand is provided to lift up a smaller cup.


I would have liked a dual-boiler machine, but decided I couldn't afford it. This was the trade-off I made. The PL81T has PID control, heats up quickly and looks good (to me anyway). I am prepared to wait a little longer for my steam. It takes a couple of minutes to switch from coffee-temperature to steam-temperature and vice-vers. It doesn't have to be done often - it's not a problem. I know the temperature's going to be pretty accurate when I need it to be.


Start up time seems very fast. The machine displays the water temperature as it's heating up; in practice, I wait a good few minutes after the displays shows 95 degrees (the temperature is programmable, by the way - I haven't fiddled with it ... yet). The display shows 95 degrees within about 5 minutes (the boiler is relatively small), but I am not sure I trust that everything is suitably up to temperature in that time, so tend to leave it another ten mins or so first thing in the morning. I run some hot water through the head / filter for a couple of seconds anyway, and the PF heats up very well.


There's a pressure gauge; it's suppose to be backlit when extracting. Mine isn't backlit. Lelit says it should be (and therefore I have a faulty machine). Do you know what? I can't face the hassle of dealing with my supplier (Caffe Italia UK - yes, yes, I know the views expressed here about them, but they were GBP80 - GBP100 cheaper than any other supplier, and that was important to me) to get it sorted. I will live with it - I can read the gauge. Maybe if the machine needs anything sorting out at a later date I'll get it looked at.


After 2-3 weeks of experimenting with fineness of grind, dose and tamp pressure, I am now reliably able to get a 25 second extraction (there's a count-down timer factory-set to 25s) at 9 bar pressure with both single and double baskets, now my Eureka Mignon has been 'dialed in' for my Pure Gusto Fair Trade Romero light-roast beans. I don't weigh my beans or coffee, and do everything by eye and memory. I'm happy with this.


It took me longer to get the hang of foaming the milk properly, but this morning, for the first time, I got it spot on - thick, white microfoam for my morning cappuccino. It can be done. I have realised the importance of conditioning the milk/foam after steaming. The steam wand is lovely - the milk sometimes does start to stick on to it, but if you're quick with the damp cloth, it's not too bad. The steam temperature is factory-set at 135 degrees. I can't be bothered to measure the milk temperature afterwards - again, it's all done by eye and 'natural skill' (ha ha!)


The tank is OK - I leave it in place and fill it using a jug and funnel rather than taking it out of the steel housing - much easier. A water filter cartridge is supplied, which you have to attach to the shorter of the two hoses; the instructions didn't say, but the second tube also needs to go into the tank.


Note that the filters are 57mm, not 58mm. It is supplied with single, double, ESE pod and blanking filter baskets (for back flushing).


I am extremely happy with this machine. It seems very well made, and for me and the rest of the family, it makes great coffee (espressos, cappuccinos and Americanos are drunk here). We're not connoisseurs, but it's a step up from my previous arrangements.

I have also put some notes into the Eureka grinders forum on my experiences with the Eureka Mignon Manuale.


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## DavecUK

Might be worth checking the 12V power wire to the gauge doesn't have a loose connection somewhere.


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## cuprajake

Nice looking machine tbh


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## Danny Dicks

DavecUK said:


> Might be worth checking the 12V power wire to the gauge doesn't have a loose connection somewhere.


 Thanks - I will do.


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## beanere2long

Useful thanks for the write-up Danny - looking at this machine too. Seems very no nonsense, and dare I say it simple?


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## DavecUK

Danny Dicks said:


> Thanks - I will do.


 So what happened, was the gauge power wire connector loose and just needed pushing in?

Feedback helps me help others better, otherwise I never know what happened, neither does anyone else considering the machine or with a similar problem.


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## MediumRoastSteam

beanere2long said:


> Useful thanks for the write-up Danny - looking at this machine too. Seems very no nonsense, and dare I say it simple?


 Just mind this bit: "Note that the filters are 57mm, not 58mm.". You'll be severely restricted in terms of accessories.

It might be that the Lelit Victoria is a better option from that point alone.


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## cuprajake

how restricted?


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## MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake said:


> how restricted?


 You won't be able to find box standard shower screen, VST baskets, IMS baskets... Tampers... The Niche cup will not fit... (It's 58mm, surprise surprise!), Bottomless porta filters. Group gaskets... Do I need to go on?

58mm is the standard due to the popularity of the E61 group (58mm).


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## beanere2long

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You won't be able to find box standard shower screen, VST baskets, IMS baskets... Tampers... The Niche cup will not fit... (It's 58mm, surprise surprise!), Bottomless porta filters. Group gaskets... Do I need to go on?
> 
> 58mm is the standard due to the popularity of the E61 group (58mm).


 Ok, interesting - I literally just ordered a Niche!


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## cuprajake

Suppose its not the end if the world haha


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## MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake said:


> Suppose its not the end if the world haha


 First world problem I'd say. But the advice is given. Lovely machine though, I just don't understand why Lelit does that.


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## dncarreira

Hi there. I have a Grace too for a while now. Motta has a 57mm tamper and a distribution tool too. The ascaso 57mm precision baskets also fit.

Now, I'm not that happy with the machine. I can't get 9bar and 25s extraction. If it's 9bar it's too fast. If it's 25s it's higher pressure. There is also the matter of getting 3 or 4 deep marks in the puck every time. I think this is from the setup of the machine to cope with ese pods. Darker roasts do fine, but lighter roasts are just impossible to dial. At ,most I get hints of what the coffee would be on other machines. I have access to an old commercial not fancy machine. I get better extractions on it very easily.

I suppose I'm not happy... it's a super machine on paper and for "Italian" coffee.

im now considering tinkering with the opv which is something I really would like to avoid... either that or sell it and upgrade.

Feels like I've hijacked your post a bit, sorry about that. Maybe someone can chime in with wiser words...


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## MediumRoastSteam

dncarreira said:


> Hi there. I have a Grace too for a while now. Motta has a 57mm tamper and a distribution tool too. The ascaso 57mm precision baskets also fit.
> 
> Now, I'm not that happy with the machine. I can't get 9bar and 25s extraction. If it's 9bar it's too fast. If it's 25s it's higher pressure. There is also the matter of getting 3 or 4 deep marks in the puck every time. I think this is from the setup of the machine to cope with ese pods. Darker roasts do fine, but lighter roasts are just impossible to dial. At ,most I get hints of what the coffee would be on other machines. I have access to an old commercial not fancy machine. I get better extractions on it very easily.
> 
> I suppose I'm not happy... it's a super machine on paper and for "Italian" coffee.
> 
> im now considering tinkering with the opv which is something I really would like to avoid... either that or sell it and upgrade.
> 
> Feels like I've hijacked your post a bit, sorry about that. Maybe someone can chime in with wiser words...


 is there a pressure gauge? What pressure does it show when "it's higher pressure"?

i don't know about your machine, but I do own an Elizabeth. OPV set to 10 bar. Don't worry about what you see in the spent puck. That means nothing.

you seen to be really keen on numbers... namely 25 and 9. I'd forget about them and watch your extraction. How long does it take for the first drops to appear? Try to aim for 8 seconds or thereabouts on a spouted PF. Then keep it to a ratio: say... 16g in, 32g out... in approximately 30 seconds. Ignore the pressure for the moment.

lighter roasts are harder. Full stop. Also, which grinder do you use? When you use your commercial machine, do you also use a commercial grinder?


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## dncarreira

First, thanks for helping out!

yes, I started with numbers but stretched outside the usual stats, a lot. High pressure would be 10 to 11.5bar. It never chokes. If you wait enough coffee will come out. Of course, it will also start channeling.

I have 2 good enough grinders. A commercial monster with 64mm burrs. And a new eureka manuale. I grind now exclusively on the eureka. I like it a lot. So I grind at home and take the coffee in a closed jar to the commercial setup. It's like velvet. On the Lelit it's always acid or sour. And I learned something I never heard of: if you grind finer and finer it gets acidic. Spots of what's seems like oils start appearing on the coffee. That's when I know I've gone too far and have to grind coarser. I have done 15s to 2min extractions. I have tried flow control by opening the water wand but that turned out too difficult for me to get consistent results.

I get really nice shots with medium dark roasts like Brasil. Chocolate notes are the easier. Everything else is just muted, hinted.

I also explored temperature. At the moment I have it set to 108C. It's really high but I don't notice bad effects, like burnt or ashy flavors. Darker roasts I may drop to 102C.

I really don't know what to try next, except start modding or sell.


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## MediumRoastSteam

dncarreira said:


> First, thanks for helping out!
> 
> yes, I started with numbers but stretched outside the usual stats, a lot. High pressure would be 10 to 11.5bar. It never chokes. If you wait enough coffee will come out. Of course, it will also start channeling.
> 
> I have 2 good enough grinders. A commercial monster with 64mm burrs. And a new eureka manuale. I grind now exclusively on the eureka. I like it a lot. So I grind at home and take the coffee in a closed jar to the commercial setup. It's like velvet. On the Lelit it's always acid or sour. And I learned something I never heard of: if you grind finer and finer it gets acidic. Spots of what's seems like oils start appearing on the coffee. That's when I know I've gone too far and have to grind coarser. I have done 15s to 2min extractions. I have tried flow control by opening the water wand but that turned out too difficult for me to get consistent results.
> 
> I get really nice shots with medium dark roasts like Brasil. Chocolate notes are the easier. Everything else is just muted, hinted.
> 
> I also explored temperature. At the moment I have it set to 108C. It's really high but I don't notice bad effects, like burnt or ashy flavors. Darker roasts I may drop to 102C.
> 
> I really don't know what to try next, except start modding or sell.


 Agora percebi que estás em Portugal. 😉😊

I'm not sure. The only thing I can think is that your commercial setup is extracts it better (more temp stable, more gentle as it has pre-infusion). I don't really know what it could be. 😢

what's your input/output, in grams? Have you tried a longer shot? Or s shorter one?

edit: I take you allow for your machine to stabilise for 20 minutes from cold?


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## dncarreira

Sim, verdade!! Tu tb?

Yes, I let it heat up for 20-30min at least. I'm thinking maybe the flow from the pump is off? Working the idea of measuring it, though only through coffee puck. For instance, at 9bar what is the flow? I know it's fast, but still measuring might bring some light.

I usually gravitate around the usual 25-30s and 1:2 ratios. But have been all over the place. From 15s to 2min. From 1.25x to 5x...

The commercial machine is an old portuguese machine, so it doesn't have preinfusion. The obvious differences are the huge boiler, the water softener, and maybe pressure. I can choke it, unlike the lelit that gets through anything I put in the filter.

The really frustrating thing is the machine is really cool, and I like it a lot, except when I get coffees that are "specialty"...

I get 1 coffee a month from tim wendelboe and they are always a challenge I enjoy. Sometimes, I even get a hint of the notes.


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## MediumRoastSteam

dncarreira said:


> Sim, verdade!! Tu tb?
> 
> Yes, I let it heat up for 20-30min at least. I'm thinking maybe the flow from the pump is off? Working the idea of measuring it, though only through coffee puck. For instance, at 9bar what is the flow? I know it's fast, but still measuring might bring some light.
> 
> I usually gravitate around the usual 25-30s and 1:2 ratios. But have been all over the place. From 15s to 2min. From 1.25x to 5x...
> 
> The commercial machine is an old portuguese machine, so it doesn't have preinfusion. The obvious differences are the huge boiler, the water softener, and maybe pressure. I can choke it, unlike the lelit that gets through anything I put in the filter.
> 
> The really frustrating thing is the machine is really cool, and I like it a lot, except when I get coffees that are "specialty"...
> 
> I get 1 coffee a month from tim wendelboe and they are always a challenge I enjoy. Sometimes, I even get a hint of the notes.


 Nope. I live in the UK. I just speak Portuguese because I was born and raised in Brazil. 🙂

Anyway, with your machine... I think I've exhausted my knowledge. Maybe it's a limitation of the machine? I have no idea, I'm really sorry. All I'd do is try to increase temperature maybe, even further than you have... See what happens. Also, it could be your basket? Maybe different shape / size / depth can contribute to different flavour profiles? Maybe try lowering or increasing your dose. Anyway, way out of my depth now. All I can offer are suggestions. Good luck.


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## dncarreira

Just a bit more feedback on my voyage with Grace.

Having trouble letting go of my Grace... I like it a lot. Just was hoping to get better results from light roasts. I'm now thinking this might have been irrealistic.

I've gone back to basics and watched videos, re-read lots of stuff. Experimented a bit.

I'm now using the machine as intended by lelit: 93ºC for darker roasts, 95ºC for lighter. I now adjust ratio (yield) to fine-tune dialing in. With lighter roasts I may grind *coarser*, not finer, and increase ratio. This great video helped on that:






Now regarding lighter roasts I'm convinced it may be impossible to get better results without "proper" pre-infusion and even flow control, on any machine. That's not Grace's fault. You can see the same difficulties in higher end machines with no flow control. And you can see that this is the selling point of the various e61 flow control kits from vendors like lelit, ecm, quick mill, etc.

So I would just like to leave here a very positive comment praising the Grace. It's a very, very nice machine, and can be found for a very nice price. For my use it's great - it's just me drinking coffee at the house, I mostly drink espresso doubles, and I like to control the process. So having a sbdu, with fast heating, with pid, manometer, and adding a scale with timer, is all I need. I know someone from Portugal read this discussion and got a bad impression of the machine and that upset me. Hope this sets things right.

I want to experiment with flow control and pre-infusion. So, either I mod the Grace or I move on.

I might upgrade, but not because of the machine. It's called upgraditis.


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## blazz

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Just mind this bit: "Note that the filters are 57mm, not 58mm.". You'll be severely restricted in terms of accessories.
> 
> It might be that the Lelit Victoria is a better option from that point alone.


 I found that there is always something that fits but its definitely more restricted. Ascaso filter baskets do; Baristator tamper fits with them (with 0.08mm gap!). I guess the price for saving a bit of money is that you have to look around a lot more.


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## FairRecycler

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the detailed informaitons above.

I couldn't happen to find out yet, how the pre infusion is done on this model. Does it stops the pump and opens the 3 way solenoid valve for the soaking cycle?

Your help is much appreciated.


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## blazz

The pre-infusion is done by 3 second soaking without applying pressure (Grace bought summer 2020).

I sometimes extend this manually by opening the steam knob to lower the pressure and closing slowly to apply the pressure gradually. It's basically pressure profiling allowed by single boiler design. Nice feature of Grace is that you see the exact pressure.


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## antinwales

blazz said:


> I sometimes extend this manually by opening the steam knob to lower the pressure and closing slowly to apply the pressure gradually. It's basically pressure profiling allowed by single boiler design. Nice feature of Grace is that you see the exact pressure.


 That's interesting. My only gripe with the Lelit is that I'm pulling shots at 11bar rather than 9. I might have a play with the knob to see what happens (I'm now getting good Americano so I'm not too dismayed).


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## blazz

I've heard there is about 1 bar difference between the valve and the basket. My machine sits on 10.5 bars when extracting so I expect 9.5 in the basket. I'm quite happy with it (especially after upgrading my grinder to Niche). I also use IMS shower screen together with stock screen.


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## hotCUPPA

blazz said:


> The pre-infusion is done by 3 second soaking without applying pressure (Grace bought summer 2020).


 Is that a fixed 3 second then with no option to set a different time, say 10s or something else?


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## blazz

hotCUPPA said:


> Is that a fixed 3 second then with no option to set a different time, say 10s or something else?


 yes its 3 seconds - probably artificially limiting so they can make the Victoria/Mara/Bianca stand out more. I use the steam knob to extend the time to anything I like and apply the pressure gradually.


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## hotCUPPA

thanks, @blazz, disappointing, if it's just software let's hope Lelit will release an update soon as it makes no sense to restrict functionality making their own products worse if capable as the Grace is different enough to stand on its own with the smaller boiler and portafilter and quicker warmup time.


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## blazz

@hotCUPPA my main complain about the machine is not seeing the live temperature. It gives live reading when it heats up but then it just flashes as it stabilises at the set temperature. I don't care it surfs a bit, I just want to know the real temp - especially if I'm making 2 shots after each other. The non programable pre-infusion time is okay because as I mentioned the steam knob can be used as a pressure profiler - this is something only higher end machines have and here it comes out of the box in £500 machine. Obviously it might not be as good but it does the job.


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## hotCUPPA

I'm with you @blazz on the workaround you found with the steamer, deal is, I'm helping some friends shop for a machine, actually helping two set of friends buying two very different machines, one with unlimited budget that are looking into the DE1PRO vs La Marzocco Linea Pro vs GS3, Slayer...etc...and another couple who aren't planning on going much over the £500 mark, but we all talk coffee together and since I'm a long time lever, pre-infusion always comes up, I'm also biased towards smaller portafilters with same/less coffee more depth in the basket, that kind of thing, and they want a very fast startup time.

The goal is to give them some options within budget so they can choose and if the Grace had programable pre-infusion, I have a feeling that it'd be the one as the budget constrain works in their favour, limiting options.

Interesting on the flashing after reaching temp stability, perhaps one should shoot Lelit an email so they can fix this stuff on their next update. Unless they are reading this forum, in that case...dai, fai il bravo, Lelit.


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## blazz

I see@hotCUPPA. It would be nice to have an unlimited budget! If I was starting again (on budget) I'd focus on grinder first. Getting Niche completely changed the game.


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## hotCUPPA

We got grinders covered, now it's a matter of finding a Grace with programmable pre-infusion!


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## blazz

Good luck! I heard that there was a problem with early models of Grace/Victoria but the only way to update the behaviour was to buy a new LCC module. Maybe someone figures out how to hack them


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## Matagalpa

Can someone explain in more detail how flow profiling works with this machine? You just gradually open the hot water outlet while the pump is working to reduce flow?


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## MediumRoastSteam

Matagalpa said:


> Can someone explain in more detail how flow profiling works with this machine? You just gradually open the hot water outlet while the pump is working to reduce flow?


 Good luck with that. The boiler has two ports: the group and the steam valve. When brewing, the group port opens and coffee is brewed under pressure, determine by the pump, the expansion valve and your coffee puck. If you ALSO open the steam wand, then water will escape through that, therefore alleviating the pressure.

no different to your house: open two taps at the same time and the pressure will decrease, very noticeable with gravity fed systems.


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## Matagalpa

So I just tried using the hot water knob to control flow on my Quick Mill Alexia Evo and I'm both impressed and excited about the ease of use and the result in the cup. I deliberately ground the coffee to be too coarse, to make the shot flow too fast with the default pressure, then used the knob to reduce flow for a perfectly good result. It was pretty easy to keep the pressure gauge at around 6 bar (down from the default 9.5 bar).

I don't get the point of investing extra money into a flow control kit when it's actually available right there, on almost all machines. So glad I stumbled on this thread.


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