# Newbie needs help!



## Noangel72 (Dec 5, 2013)

I am now at my third week of use of a new Breville (Sage) Barista Express and although it makes really good espresso I am finding the machine way too sensitive and inconsistent. I have gone through several reviews on this website and at this point my question really remains: if I return the Breville is there an alternative that is more forgiving (as in I like experimenting with coffee but the extra .3g of coffee or kilo of tamping force shouldn't screw up my shots as it happens now) and that costs about the same (about £500-600 for machine and grinder)?

I know it's the same old question but please help me! The more I read about espresso and the more difficult I find it to pull a shot on my present machine.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What is it that you find inconsistent... And how does it taste in the cup......


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## Noangel72 (Dec 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> What is it that you find inconsistent... And how does it taste in the cup......


Inconsistent are the results I get every single time I pull a shot! Just by slightly changing the amount of coffee (fractions of a gram) and the tamping force, measured with weigh scales, I get varying extraction pressures and times! Bottom line is machine is too sensitive! I like fiddling with coffee but I need a machine that allows for larger error margins.....

Taste: when underextracted it lacks body and is weak, when overextracted is bitter....


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

What grinder are you using and are you using non pressurised baskets?


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## Noangel72 (Dec 5, 2013)

Incorporated grinder and single wall baskets.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

What beans are you using in the grinder section as is it shimmed to grind better in the espresso range as the smart grinder is?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Is it the Bean to cup one? I don't know for sure but would have thought it came with a non pressurised baskets. Apologies if wrong. Can anyone confirm?


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## Noangel72 (Dec 5, 2013)

No! It's an automatic.

Anyway, can anybody comment on the Expobar Office lava? I am now considering that. It's sold on bellabarista.co.uk


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

They're a bit more than what you've set your budget on and you'd still need a grinder on top. How long before you can no longer take the Sage back for a refund?

When you say that it's inconsistent each time you pull a shot, is this one shot straight after another or shots across the day? Generally you have to change your grind as the day progresses due to the environment changing, generally I need to start the day with a tighter grind and slacken it off over the day.


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## Noangel72 (Dec 5, 2013)

Geordie Boy said:


> They're a bit more than what you've set your budget on and you'd still need a grinder on top. How long before you can no longer take the Sage back for a refund?
> 
> When you say that it's inconsistent each time you pull a shot, is this one shot straight after another or shots across the day? Generally you have to change your grind as the day progresses due to the environment changing, generally I need to start the day with a tighter grind and slacken it off over the day.


For example, yesterday I finally figured out the perfect shot with 1 cup basket (single wall), this morning I did everything the same, just doubled coffee quantity (measured on a micro scale) and used the 2 cup basket....and the damn thing was totally under extracted! That's it! I can understand having to change recipes in between coffee types but between 1 and 2 cup baskets is really too much!

I am thinking Baratzo Vario €380 + Gaggia Classic £180 or otherwise Expobar Office Leva £900 + cheaper grinder (which one?)........what should I do?.....now I am risking being left without machine for Christmas, Sage is booked for pick up on Friday!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hi there. Few points to consider .

If you want to get consistent extractions then remain consistent . Stick to a grind , dose , tamp and basket size, adjust one variable at a time . Simply doubling the dose from single to double will not work .

The search for the same shot ,extractions and taste is the one we all strive for , with all of our varying equipment. If inconsistencies bother you from shot to shot then espresso will be frustrating for you .

It's the nature of the beast .

A better grinder will give you a meet consistent grind and different taste profile , but will not guarantee that you get the exact same dose and from it , with the same consistency , to pull the exact same way and taste exactly the same each time .

I have a £2000 commercial grinder and it still delivers different weights and extractions and different taste from shot to shot . Mainly because of the things I do in the steps of making coffee.

A gaggia and a vario or a brewtus and another grinder isn't going to help remove the inconsistencies you have,most of them sit within yourself .

People with 2k machines and £2k grinders still make sink shots from time to time , just less of them.

all the machines such as an expo will help you deliver better tasting coffee more of the time, but it will not be a case of the same extractions exactly each time . Beans age, tamp changes , doses are distributed differently . By all means by one if you have the money , buy a expo , it's a great machine by all accounts but don't get it with the with the illusion that it will deliver you perfect cofffee exactly the same each time . If you do , you with be as frustrated dan disappointed as you are with the age machine .

You are the variable inbetween that you need to master ....


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Noangel72 said:


> For example, yesterday I finally figured out the perfect shot with 1 cup basket (single wall), this morning I did everything the same, just doubled coffee quantity (measured on a micro scale) and used the 2 cup basket....and the damn thing was totally under extracted! That's it! I can understand having to change recipes in between coffee types but between 1 and 2 cup baskets is really too much!
> 
> I am thinking Baratzo Vario €380 + Gaggia Classic £180 or otherwise Expobar Office Leva £900 + cheaper grinder (which one?)........what should I do?.....now I am risking being left without machine for Christmas, Sage is booked for pick up on Friday!


Sorry to say, changing machine won't help you until you learn how to make espresso.

First of all, single espresso =! double espresso.

Second of all, don't make a single espresso, no one does that, because its not worth the time or the effort.

Try this, 16g of coffee, ground pretty finely, mix it in the basket, so that there is an even density across the whole basket and tamp.

Make sure the tamp is flat and equal across the whole basket.

Only tamp once and after tamping, do not tap the basket or disturb it in anyway.

Weigh a cup and tare the scales.

Brew your coffee (your machine should have been on for 30 mins to heat up and you should have a warm cup).

You should run for 27 seconds and after brewing, check the weight of the shot.

If its not 23~24g then change the grind accordingly.

It's very important that you get an even distribution across the basket as if there are any weak spots or strong spots, the water will not flow evenly.

Also, if you tamp too hard, you end up forcing the grounds together and they end up fitting poorly. Grinding finer and tamping lighter, the grinds will fit together a lot better and allow a better flow of water.

In theory at least.

Expect to use upto 200g of coffee getting your first shots right. This will be the same on any machine, even a Classic or a Brewtus until you know what you are doing and your set up is roughly calibrated to the type of shot you want.

Also, take a picture of your basket and filter holder for us.


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## Noangel72 (Dec 5, 2013)

OK.....I'm getting contradicting advice between this and the home-barista forum and from different members, some people say that a poor set up won't allow even the best barista to pull consistently good shots and some other people are of the school that only a bad barista will produce bad shots regardless of equipment!

I am a newbie and I am now making it into the new world of "proper" home espresso making (the one where people buy freshly roasted beans and gets all worked out about grind size and tamping) I supposed I was destined there as I always enjoyed good wine and food and I am now over 40....so what else is left to do? In saying that I've always enjoyed simple espresso and I am Italian, so I have fairly high expectations when it comes to espresso anyway......at the same time I do not want/need to pull a shot 6 times before I can get one decent cup, I know I have a lot to learn but I am SURE that not all machines are sensitive and "difficult" as the Sage turned out to be...and so I decided to order a Baratzo Vario and a Gaggia Classic in the hope that the grinder + freshly roasted coffee will allow me to refine my newly developing espresso passion and the Gaggia will give me the ease of use that I already had with all my previous machines of the same class!

I will let you know how it works out. Thanks!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

i guess you'll find out.

Good luck


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

It does sound like you're on the start of a coffee journey so I don't think you'll regret going for a separate machine/grinder combo as it allows you the potential to replace/upgrade in the future with less difficulties (e.g. use the proceeds of selling one to buy something else). The problem with a machine with both is that you're stuck with all or nothing, a bit like those tv + vhs combos in the past


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Good equipment will not make up for bad skills , that is an absolute given .

Good luck from me too. Suggest you try some placesto drink In edinburgh , there are lots of cafés that serve excellent espresso . Will give you some aspirations to aim for and some places to buy beans from.

There is a thread on here called edinburgh day out that lists the places we went to for a small forum day out .

Good luck .


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## Noangel72 (Dec 5, 2013)

Thanks. It's difficult to find good coffee in Edinburgh. Will check them out.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Really? Have you not been here http://www.brewlabcoffee.co.uk/


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## Noangel72 (Dec 5, 2013)

No, but in my defense I've relocated from Italy only 6 months ago! Thanks, I will check it out.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Try artisan roast, project coffee , and machima also.

All great coffee . Edinburgh is one of the best places for a variety of coffee shops. Need to be sought out but they are there .


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

Kyle548 said:


> Second of all, don't make a single espresso, no one does that, because its not worth the time or the effort.


I do and I find it is well worth the time and the effort I spent to get it consistently right.

As for Noangel's problem, my suggestion would be to:

- start with a more forgiving coffee. A blend such as Italian by Rave or Everyday Espresso by Coffeebeanshop would be a good start.

- master one type of basket first. Either the single or the double. Switching between the two can be tricky, but it is possible once you understand your equipment (sorry if I sound patronising, it is not my intention)

- if you decide that single is what you want, consider purchasing a LM single basket and it will make your life considerably easier.

Good luck.


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