# Advice Needed - E61 HX vs DB / Cooling Flush vs Warming Flush



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Hi All,

It comes to that time where I'm starting to consider a new machine to go along with my Super Jolly.

Due to local availability, and general desirability I have two realistic options:

-Rocket Cellini Evoluzione V2 (Rotary Pump, Dual Connect, HX)

-Rocket R58 (As above, but Dual Boiler obviously)

I was all but set on the cellini as it gives me pretty much everything I'm looking for, a rotary pump, the ability to plumb in, and given I'm mostly doing milk drinks based on the same few blends, I'm not really looking to have PID temperature control for the "tweakability". However, A few videos on youtube have made me painfully aware of the sheer size of cooling flush that a HX machine can need, and in some cases the cellini needed probably about 8oz of water pulled through the circuit before brewing temp is reached.

Those who know me will understand that I hate faff, and having to pull that much water through the group seems like a pain in the arse to me, and because theres no PID I can never really be sure when everything is at the right temperature, without getting a probe into the group.

So then theres the R58. No HX circuit, so no cooling flushes. Am i right in thinking DB's generally need a small warming flush to bring the group temp back up? If so, how much would this need to be? Am I likely to find the steam power and recovery similar / better / worse on the R58 than on the cellini?

So many questions, but keen to get a bit more solid background on this before throwing rather a large sum of money at it.

Oh and If budget becomes quite tight, I may end up with an Expobar Dual Boiler, but I'd rather not as I fancy a rotary pump!

Thoughts?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Have a word with Rob at Rave. I think he does the expobar you are seeking at a very competitive price


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I can get it locally at a good price, but i don't really want an expobar, as I want rotary pump (and expobar only has that on plumb version)


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

I had the same question myself a few years ago - and couldn't stand the thought of going through cooling flushes with an HX (particularly as I'm "tanked" and not plumbed in - so would be refilling the tank more frequently).

So - I went for an Alex Duetto - as I hardly ever steam milk (so keep the steam boiler turned off, which is a nice feature - and it comes up to temp in about 3 mins if I do want to) and wanted as good and as stable a brew temp as reasonably possible, with PID control.

On occasion I may run a very brief flush through the group before pulling a shot - but most of the time I just lock, load and pull... and everything works beautifully. So I'd say that a 'warming flush' certainly isnt required (not in the same way as a cooling flush is on an HX).

Steam power shouldnt be an issue - as a DB gives you the ability to have varying steam 'power' through the PID control of the steam boiler temperature (and hence pressure). Again, probabably better than the HX in that respect (combined with the fact that you can often turn the steam boiler off on a DB if you don't use it often - reduces power consumption, stress on the machine components due to the higher temps, and maintenance of the steam boiler).

An E61 group is a solid chunk of brass, and once the machine is up to temp the thermosyphon from the boiler keeps the entire mass of it at (or very close to) your desired brew temp (93c currently on mine). You could almost pipe cold water through the small channels in the group, and due to the thermal mass of it you'd probably get water out of it that was pretty close to brew temp anyway - so the combination of the E61 thermosyphon and a PID controlled brew boiler means that the temp stability is typically excellent on PID controlled DB machines.

E61, rotary pump, dual boilers and PID.... good decision in my book!

Shades


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

But you do not have to plumb it in. I am sure some just run it from a water container?


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Thanks for that Shades... very good info there


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> But you do not have to plumb it in. I am sure some just run it from a water container?


That's what I do....will be plumbed in this weekend though ?


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I have no space / desire to have plastic water containers lying around, and to be entirely honest, I'd only have the expobar if budget became a problem as I don't find it particularly good looking.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Wobin19 has a cellini, you could ask him for information. Steam on the brewtus is plenty for making milky drinks in quick succession and can't imagine the rocket would perform much differently


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Ultimately budget will push me into a choice, and it may end up being Cellini HX vs Expobar DB (rotary), but I'm hoping to have enough for the R58.

How stable do you find the expobar Jeebsy? do you do a warming flush or do you just lock and go! does the water bottle solution work ok?

I'd be interested to understand how the steam power on these DB machines measures up against what I was used to on the cherub (which was brutal on steam power)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

That's odd..I know someone on here who got a Rocket, and things fell off it in the first week......and privately he expressed it as a poorly finished piece of rubbish and could not ditch it fast enough....but, each to his own


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

INteresting, I've spent quite a bit of time twiddling with them in the shop and they seem very solid and well put together. But hard to know how they'll respond in the flesh.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

shrink said:


> How stable do you find the expobar Jeebsy? do you do a warming flush or do you just lock and go! does the water bottle solution work ok?
> 
> I'd be interested to understand how the steam power on these DB machines measures up against what I was used to on the cherub (which was brutal on steam power)


Generally just lock and go but sometimes do a wee flush if it's been idle for ages, nothing substantial though. Find it's very consistent.

You might find the steam a little underwhelming with the standard one hole, it's not quick but it produces a really nice texture. I have a two or three hole tip which is supposed to be much faster but I only make one/two flat whites at a time so never really felt the need to change.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I always pull a little water through the group to warm my cup anyway, so guess that would bring anything up to temp before pulling a shot.

Watch this space, I should know by next week what I'm doing. Happy for anyone else to chip in in the meantime. Where are the R58 owners


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

After 30 mins of idleness my HX needs approx 120ml @ 1.2bar. only takes a few seconds.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I was not that impressed with the build quality of the Rockets, but it is all down to personal choice, Macchina (which is where I assume you are getting it from) like them and if new it is fully warranted. I would get the dual boiler if it is in budget if only for temperature options and better temp stability, plus the r58 is one of the prettiest machines out there (if you like pump machines)


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

I was going through the same dilemma but DavecUK got wind of my thoughts and had a lovely Sunday afternoon conversation about the pros and cons, I came to the conclusion that I didn't want the HX so dual it had to be.

I was also advised that the best machine was the QM Verona, by a mile as well.

I'd had my heart set on the Rockets but as Dave knows his stuff and I was fairly keen to be shown a guiding hand, I went with his vast knowledge.

Have a chat with him. I'm sure you'll find it really informative also.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I'll be restricting my choice to whats available locally to me through Machina. Which means Cellini Evoluzione V2 (rotary HX), R58 or Expobar DB.

I agree that the R58 is achingly pretty! but if its not functionally all the way there, that will be a pain.

I'll get the chance to play with them all anyway and see which comes out on top for me.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Cooling flush on a HX machine isn't as bad as you think, I always like to run water through to keep handle/basket clean anyhow. Admit if you are using bottled water you are going to be filling it quite a bit so a plumbed in version is the best option. As I use the cooling water to heat the cup which I would do with a double boiler anyhow I can't see it as much of an issue and certainly not as not as big an issue as it's made up to be,

as for the build quality of the rocket nothing has fell off it yet but as I have very little or previous to compare it to .

pros :

consistent coffee

aesthetics

cons :

Refilling with bottled water

Rattling cups


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

A question for those who have DB machines but usually leave the steam boiler off. Is the boiler still full of water? If so, are you worried about bugs growing inside it or at the least scale and nasties? If so, what do you do about it? I ask because I am acquiring my first DB machine tomorrow and will also not usually switch the steam boiler on.

TiA

DB


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> That's what I do....will be plumbed in this weekend though 


How far away is your machine from the mains jeebsy?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

It'll be about 3-5 feet from the washing machine


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> It'll be about 3-feet from the washing machine


Mine is going to be about 12 feet but it's mains fed so shouldn't matter should it?


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

DB - no, I don't worry about it at all. On the odd occasion that I use the steam boiler, I'm pretty happy that a water temp of 127C is going to kill pretty much anything in there (if there's anything in there anyway). Heck, it's only use is to steam milk for guests anyway.... so who cares? ;-)

I use bottled water and don't see scale as an issue (as I tend to turn on, steam what I need to for guests, turn off). I've probably been through that cycle no more than 50 times (about once a month I guess, for about 20 mins each time on avg) in the 4 years that I've owned the machine - and haven't bothered with any steam boiler descale at all.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

with a DB like the expobar, could you turn it on without the steam boiler in the morning before shower, let it warm up and get up to temp, and then just turn the steam boiler on 3 mins before you need to use it?

id guess steam boiler thermal stability isn't really a thing, and you're just needing it to get up to pressure?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Tiny tamper said:


> Mine is going to be about 12 feet but it's mains fed so shouldn't matter should it?


Wouldn't have thought so as long as there's sufficient pressure



shrink said:


> with a DB like the expobar, could you turn it on without the steam boiler in the morning before shower, let it warm up and get up to temp, and then just turn the steam boiler on 3 mins before you need to use it?
> 
> id guess steam boiler thermal stability isn't really a thing, and you're just needing it to get up to pressure?


I give steam boiler ten mins usually but it gets up to pressure pretty quick


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

MrShades said:


> DB - no, I don't worry about it at all.


Thanks! Very useful! I won't worry then!


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Thanks all... plenty food for thought. Budget will be the ultimate decider, but funds permitting it'll either be an R58 used from internal tank for now, an expobar run from water bottle under my counter, or a cellini run from internal tank.

The whole HX vs DB thing goes round and round, I'm not sure what suits my needs better. I don't change coffee a lot, and i don't really drink espresso neat, so im rarely looking to extract the last 1% of flavour profile from a particular single estate! but thats not to say I wouldn't start thinking about it!

That said, I'm almost afraid of the options a DB with PID will give me, as I'll end up tweaking forever and constantly changing things. I like the fact that an HX takes some of that choice away from me!

If you run a machine from an external water bottle, do you need a flojet to make it work?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

With a rotary no you dont as it does pull and push, with a vibratory am am sure that you need gravity to help get the water to the pump. Of course they will work more effectively with water pressure of 2 bar up to the back of the pump.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Thanks CoffeeChap. I'm looking into the possibility of plumbing, as technically i could get a feed to the machine, would just mean using a 3-4m hose. I'm in rented accomodation though, so could be a tad dodgy









The large water bottle idea is preferable as it means large volumes without topping up every couple of days, and also means I don't have to take cups off the top of the machine.

How do you prime a machine being used in this fashion? e.g. brand new, empty boiler, water from external tank and a rotary pump. Surely it'll take quite a few seconds of dry running to get water up into the system?

Thanks again for everyones help

David


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I kind of like that the need for a cooling flush forces me to warm my cup before pulling a shot. It's something which I would probably not bother to do if I did not need to flush the group.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Warming cups is so


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

also.... i use the hot water tap to heat cups up, at least I always did on the cherub!


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

I always liked the look of an Alex for a dual boiler machine, but with the price for a new one you are banging on the door to one of those one arm bandit things everyone keeps going on about.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

shrink said:


> also.... i use the hot water tap to heat cups up, at least I always did on the cherub!


Even though you had to flush the group?


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I didnt realise back then just how much needed to be flushed. As there was so much talk about how E61's with a proper thermosiphon back to the HX circuit shouldn't need cooling flushes.

Seems thats not entirely true and having seen a few vids now of E61 based HX machines with temp probes, it seems the HX circuit can get pretty bloody hot when left idling!

Thats part of what appeals about a DB machine, is that I can probably just go straight to pulling a shot without the faff!


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

^^^^ absolutely! You're coming round to my way of thinking!

Now, stop faffing and get your wallet out.


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## kolorado (Jan 19, 2014)

As a plumbed-in R58 owner, I do flush a couple seconds of water through beforehand into the cup without a filter basket in the PF (as I use a peculiar set-up within the doser of my Rocky, so I grind, weigh and tamp directly into the basket and place it in the PF without the spring holding it in place).

This is more to wash out any errant grounds that might be around the inside of the group head or shower and to warm the cup rather than to alter the brew temp. But I usually have also added a bit of water to the cup already from the hot water tap while I prep the basket so it's mainly a quick wash. I'm probably a bit more liberal with this practice now that it's plumbed in and I know I won't have a shot interrupted because I've run out of water in the tank.

I don't think I did anything special like priming the pump when I attached the line in from the mains, but I'd run a good 10L of water through the filter and pressure reg valve immediately before hooking it into the machine to make sure there was a completely clean line coming in. Then I just switched the option over on the PID box and everything seemed to work fine from there.


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## kolorado (Jan 19, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Warming cups is so
> 
> Sorry, what do you mean by


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?17511-Quality-vs-Image&p=189831#post189831

Do you think your Rocky does your r58 justice?


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

how have you found living with your R58.. I'd appreciate any experiences you can pass on. How is it for steam power? stablility? reliability etc


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

The one thing that would put me off an R58 is the stupid detachable PID on a cable, unless they've finally decided to mount it inside the machine, that said Shrink that might be a good one for you , set the pid and then disconnect the box and put it in a drawer, removes the temptation to fiddle I guess. The only thing that tempt me away from another dual boiler machine as a future upgrade would possibly be a Veloce or an L1, other than that the sheer convenience and temperature stability of a DB outweighs it all for me. one thing worth looking at with any DB machine is that some of them do preheat the brew boiler water supply via an HX in the steam boiler , so by leaving that turned off you do sacrifice some temperature stability.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I'm not sure the pid on a rope would be in practice...really don't adjust the pid very much at all


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## kolorado (Jan 19, 2014)

Aaah, I see now! Definitely I presently fall into the non-EK43 owning sub 20% class and no, I don't feel the Rocky does my R58 justice in the slightest. Actually, started a thread because I am now researching next grinder http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?17489-Upgrade-from-10y-o-Rocky-to but instead I probably should be looking into the local chapter of Gearahlolics Anonymous and drop in on their regular meetings.


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## kolorado (Jan 19, 2014)

I've stepped up from a La Pavoni lever, so stability on the R58 is spectacular as far as I'm concerned. But in general I haven't noticed a difference due to temp after pulling several shots in a row.

I've only had my machine for 3 months now, but I haven't had the slightest issues with reliability (as I'd expect!). I bought it from Bella Barista and they did a full check on the machine before sending it out and I haven't had any need to concern myself with the warrantee.

Steam from R58 is good. Mine came with two sets of two-hole tips. I've been using the smaller gauge one and getting some velvety microfoam from it, though I've still not got the knack for perfect milk every time. I raised the temp on the service boiler by a degree to get a bit more power, but haven't needed to adjust it since then. I'm still loving the ability to steam and brew at the same time, even though it maxes out my multitasking ability. I like that there is never a concern about the order I'm doing espresso and milk drinks. Before I would have to wait until I'd done my espresso if I wanted to steam milk because my machine would get to hot if I steamed first. That said, my Pavoni was always a brilliant little steamer when it came to power.

I keep my PID plugged in as I have access to the side of the machine at all times since it's on the end of a work surface, and it's tucked at an angle just under the place where it plugs in. I like that it's not on the front of the machine, and I don't change the brew temp that often. It's worked well for me but I know for those who adjust between many shots and don't have a set-up that allows the PID to be accessed as easily, it might not be a great solution.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Having had a good look today and a bit of a play, I think I'm pretty much decided on an Expobar dual boiler with rotary pump. Quite a few reasons, most of which are that I didn't see where the extra money in the rocket was going. Smaller boilers, outboard PID, and a drip tray that would drive me nuts within a couple of months.

Plus the Expobar is slimmer which suits my workspace for it


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

I dont understand peoples finding doing a flush a bother. I have an L1 and do a mini flush prior to pulling the first shot of a session purely to clean the screen. If I had a dual boiler I would do the same.

I had an HX machine for 8 years and would recommend them over a dual boiler simply because they are inherently more reliable and much easier to descale.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

NickR said:


> I had an HX machine for 8 years and would recommend them over a dual boiler simply because they are inherently more reliable and much easier to descale.


Please quantify your reasoning behind this? and I would put money on the fact my DB machine is way easier to descale than your L1, and I'm not even sure where you get the idea that an HX is inherently more reliable.


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

I am not sure why you think you need massive cooling flushes on the Rocket? I don't need too on mine. If the machine has been idle for a while, then a couple of oz's which warms my cup up too does the trick. But honestly its not a faff at all. If I am doing multiple shots, then no further flush is required. Its very stable. I think some people adjust the boiler temperature upward and that might make additional flushing necessary, but I have left mine at the factory setting. Both machines are great so which ever route you take I reckon you will be well pleased.


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

Please quantify your reasoning behind this? and I would put money on the fact my DB machine is way easier to descale than your L1, and I'm not even sure where you get the idea that an HX is inherently more reliable.

I take the point that the Sage has boiler drains. (Do remember though, they are one more thing to start leaking). In general with the exception of the QM Verona dual boiler, de scaling is more work than a single boiler machine. A Dual boiler machine has two elements, two temperature control systems, more wiring more plumbing joints to leak, more spade connectors to drop off. Where do you get the idea that a dual boiler could possibly be more reliable than a single? Lets have this discussion in ten years time, I'd love to see how your machine lasts. Perhaps it will prove my point.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

What's descaling









I live in Scotland, I've never seen a kettle with scale in it, nor has any coffee machine I've ever had developed any scale. Even if as a precaution I did a descale once every couple of years I can't imagine the extra effort of doing on a dual boiler would be a huge issue.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

shrink said:


> What's descaling


With you there Shrink - apparently it's some affliction some people who don't live in sensible places have to endure.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Always thought i lived in a medium hard water area ( severn trent) but after getting one of those Calgon test strips i live in a moderate soft area. Never drink the shi*e though. Always use Ashbeck


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

NickR said:


> Please quantify your reasoning behind this? and I would put money on the fact my DB machine is way easier to descale than your L1, and I'm not even sure where you get the idea that an HX is inherently more reliable.
> 
> I take the point that the Sage has boiler drains. (Do remember though, they are one more thing to start leaking). In general with the exception of the QM Verona dual boiler, de scaling is more work than a single boiler machine. A Dual boiler machine has two elements, two temperature control systems, more wiring more plumbing joints to leak, more spade connectors to drop off. Where do you get the idea that a dual boiler could possibly be more reliable than a single? Lets have this discussion in ten years time, I'd love to see how your machine lasts. Perhaps it will prove my point.


So how exactl y(yes I realise you have a hot water tap) are you actually going to make sure you get all the water and then descaling liquid out of the boiler? other than lost and lots of flushing? (the Sage is easier to descale than a Verona) the Verona also has draintaps will they not leak due to being Italian?, not every machine uses spade clips for connections some do it properly and solder them. There is zero reasons why PID control over temperature should become faulty, as it has a long long history used in various industries, you have not really given any quantifiable reasons, just a prejudiced ill-informed bias for some reason, after all you don't see many people posting about serious issues with any DB machines on the forums.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Just remove the boiler


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Just remove the boiler


A nice easy job then in comparison !!!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

shrink said:


> Having had a good look today and a bit of a play, I think I'm pretty much decided on an Expobar dual boiler with rotary pump. Quite a few reasons, most of which are that I didn't see where the extra money in the rocket was going. Smaller boilers, outboard PID, and a drip tray that would drive me nuts within a couple of months.
> 
> Plus the Expobar is slimmer which suits my workspace for it


Don't think you'll be disappointed - good choice


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Do you use a water bottle or plumbed jeebsy?

Can you tell me the following:

- if plumbed does the pump run for boiler fill, or does it just use mains pressure?

- how noisy do you find it

- which steam tip do you use?

Thanks


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Ran it off a water bottle since getting it at christmas. Pump runs to fill boiler.

It's really quiet. Sometimes the drip or cup bit at the top can vibrate a bit making it seem more noisy, but the pump isn't noisy.

I use the one hole tip, slow but great results. If you're only doing one drink at a time it's fine. I did milk for two flatties tonight and it was OK but if that was a regular thing i'd try the two hole.

Plumbed the waste in last night and the bobbins the plumb the inlet should be here tomorrow. Hopefully be fully plumbed for Thurs or Fri.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I plan to plumb mine, so I will be interesting to see if it bothers with the pump when filling the tank from mains!


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

Charliej said:


> So how exactl y(yes I realise you have a hot water tap) are you actually going to make sure you get all the water and then descaling liquid out of the boiler? other than lost and lots of flushing? (the Sage is easier to descale than a Verona) the Verona also has draintaps will they not leak due to being Italian?, not every machine uses spade clips for connections some do it properly and solder them. There is zero reasons why PID control over temperature should become faulty, as it has a long long history used in various industries, you have not really given any quantifiable reasons, just a prejudiced ill-informed bias for some reason, after all you don't see many people posting about serious issues with any DB machines on the forums.





Charliej said:


> So how exactl y(yes I realise you have a hot water tap) are you actually going to make sure you get all the water and then descaling liquid out of the boiler? other than lost and lots of flushing? (the Sage is easier to descale than a Verona) the Verona also has draintaps will they not leak due to being Italian?, not every machine uses spade clips for connections some do it properly and solder them. There is zero reasons why PID control over temperature should become faulty, as it has a long long history used in various industries, you have not really given any quantifiable reasons, just a prejudiced ill-informed bias for some reason, after all you don't see many people posting about serious issues with any DB machines on the forums.


If the same manufacturer built two machines, one dual and one single boiler using common components where possible. The single boiler would be more reliable than the dual boiler, simply due to the fact that there is less to go wrong. This is not "prejudiced" or" ill-informed bias" Its basic statistics.

All espresso machines will go wrong at some point. However there is normally far more room to work inside a single boiler machine, making repairs far easier.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Not really as simple as that. You could argue that the huge temperature changes needed in a single boiler doing both steam and brew, could cause early wear and tear.

In a HX system, you could argue that the need for cooling flushes could lead to premature motor wear.

I'm not convinced its as black and white as "more components, more to break"


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Order placed today for Expobar Dual Boiler with Rotary Pump

Also picked up a 17g strada basket, a 58.3mm made by knock tamper and a new tamping mat.

I've also said I'll buy the IMS shower screen for sale on this site


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## slas111 (Mar 25, 2014)

shrink said:


> Order placed today for Expobar Dual Boiler with Rotary Pump
> 
> Also picked up a 17g strada basket, a 58.3mm made by knock tamper and a new tamping mat.
> 
> I've also said I'll buy the IMS shower screen for sale on this site


what price was the Expobar ?


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

1299 for rotary plumbed version


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## poolfan (May 9, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Ran it off a water bottle since getting it at christmas. Pump runs to fill boiler.


Interested in your setup - could you answer the following

Your piped Brewtas IV uses the rotary pump runs to keep boiler topped up from bottle - how do you ensure that the bottle doesn't empty and you then dry run the rotary pump which would not be good at al - is it simply a check every time you switch machine on?

I see the advantage of this setup rather than mains is simply no need for water softener and pressure reducing valve etc - would that be correct?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I used a 5l bottle so a check every five days or so was sufficient. No softener/PRV etc required.

I had an 'incident' the other day and my machine ran dry for over an hour. Thankfully it's OK though.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

ok so today is finally D day for the Expobar. Pickup tonight, where it'll get put in place and dialed in, and then tomorrow it'll be getting plumbed in.

Heres a good question for you Jeebsy.... Does plumbing in affect pressure at the group when brewing. E.g. if you're getting 9 bar from tank, and then you plumb it into mains, do you get a higher pressure at the puck?

Does the pump pressure need to be altered when plumbing in?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Have fun setting up your new toy Shrink!


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I will.. tonight it'll get run off a water bottle!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

shrink said:


> ok so today is finally D day for the Expobar. Pickup tonight, where it'll get put in place and dialed in, and then tomorrow it'll be getting plumbed in.
> 
> Heres a good question for you Jeebsy.... Does plumbing in affect pressure at the group when brewing. E.g. if you're getting 9 bar from tank, and then you plumb it into mains, do you get a higher pressure at the puck?
> 
> Does the pump pressure need to be altered when plumbing in?


Mine was set to 9 bar running out the bottle, and after connecting it to the mains it was still 9 bar with the 2 bar line level pressure if that's what you mean.


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## Marian (Jan 5, 2014)

It is a long time since I have posted but I will pass on my views on this. After not getting on at all with the Sage I originally set out to but a Rocket because it is such a beautiful machine. However, after going out and testing at least twenty machines I was shocked to find that the Expobar Dual boiler gave me everything I needed for a fraction of the price. So I passed the Sage on to my daughter and went ahead with the installation of a rotary pump, plumbed in version of the Expobar. That was about 8 months ago and I couldn't be happier. The dual boiler gives me the ability to steam, produce hot water, make beautifully silky espresso and control all the variables I might wish to control (which in my situation is basically the temperature). Also, it looks nice in my kitchen - important for a female!

So successful has my purchase been, that three friends have followed me into the Expobar market and unplumbed from a large water source such as a carafe of water the results are also impressive. Also, my daughter passed on the Sage to my son and also went for an Expobar and she and her husband love it too. My son is now thinking about getting the dual boiler too. I think for the price it is unbeatable and if you want a rotary pump but not plumbed in, you can run a tube from a large water source - just make sure it is always topped up.

My final note will be on the texture. One of the most important factors for me was the velvet texture of the coffee the Expobar produces.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

well i was in the market for the rocket R58.. but the R58 presented various issues:

1) small drip tray with too little overhang meaning messy flushes

2) very small boilers on both brew and steam IMHO (probably to accomodate water tank and a rotary pump).

3) external PID

4) Some suggestion of issues maintaining steam pressure.

Yet for about £400 less i can have

1) two big boilers with large elements

2) huge drip tray

3) built in PID

4) plenty steam power

So I didn't see where my money would be spent on the R58 and went for the expobar instead. I can't wait to pick it up today


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

Shrink, just a little bit envious, where did you find the rotary pump model as when i went to BB they told me it was about a 3-6 week wait, and tried a few other suppliers but all had vibe only models, would have had the rotary Expobar over the Verona as its such a well built compact machine.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Machina espresso in Edinburgh


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

yep... i got mine through machina espresso as they are local to me. I also know them fairly well so it made sense to go through them for a pain free transaction.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

So, with a little help from a friend, we got the beast plumbed in tonight.

I have fairly healthy mains it seems and sitting steady at 4 bar. I may look at getting a reducer.

Because I knew I'd be playing late, I bought a bag of Honduras Swiss water decaf from Steampunk coffee. I've tasted it in cafés and it's always impressed.

18.4g in, 5 seconds pre infusion, plus 27 second extraction resulting in 27g out. Utterly delicious. Chocolatey, smooth, rich and with just a hit of acidity. One of the most enjoyable coffees I've had in ages,..... And this is a decaf!


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

Yep it was running well & shots tasting great! Very glad it was decaf...!


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Yeah, even the throwaway shots were better than some I've been charged for in shops lol

None of them were undrinkable. A testament to the stability and forgiving nature of the Expobar.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

So 32 secs in total? Glad to hear you're enjoying it, i love mine even more now it's plumbed in


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Quick question jeebsy. We noticed that after pulling a shot, and even after then opening up the group with no handle in place to drop the pressure, that my pressure dial climbs up slowly when the machine is idling. The second you pull the lever, it drops back to mains reading and then up to pump pressure.

Just wondered if it was normal behaviour for this model


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Yeah, seems to be - another Brewtus owner who had one (think it was GSK but dunno if that's because of the pharma chat in the other thread) said his did the same, and mine does too. Goes anywhere from 4-12 on mine but as soon as the level goes past halfway it drops to true pressure.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Yeah mine climbs sometimes as high as 12, but the second you flick the lever to pre infuse, it reads true mains pressure. Seems the idle pressure is generally to be ignored lol

And yes 32 seconds all in.... 5 plus 27

I do find that on this machine though, because of the built in pre infusion chamber, that generally shots need to be around the 30 second mark generally. I need to play more with pre infusion, but 32-35 seconds seems like a sensible target for extraction including 4-5 seconds of pre infusion.


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