# Dialing in the LR, issues.



## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

To all the lever gurus out there.. Only been a week with the LR and need to top up my bean stash.

Need some advice. Shots are good but not great. Finding the shots run fast and come out thin and underextracted type of bitter.

Prep is not an issue, been using vsts for the past couple years on my Duetto with the bottomless and have been perfect.

Using Ceado E37s, distribute the grinds like there's no tomorrow, flatten bed with OCD type tool and tamp firmly. Coffee always fresh and rested. As I said, never had issues with extractions at around 19% EY.

Now with the LR, started off with VST15, dosing at 15, tried the VST18 dosing at 18 and the OEM one at 16g. I've had to go finer the ever on Ceado (grind setting 4.5 compared to 6.5 for my previous 9bar rotary pump machine) and after a 5sec PI in my slowest shot has run in 26sec. Tasted poor and EY across the last 3 shots averaged at 16%.

Also I noticed when using OEM basket a hairline crack in the middle of the spent puck on those last 3 shots.. (should mention I am using a kvdw shower screen with no obstruction in the centre of the screen which may force water down the middle a bit too harshly for the 3bar LR pi). Also once in every few shots I get a gush of water down the side of portafilter during PI stage as if gasket is old, but it's brand new!

Is it normal to have to grind THAT much finer? I mean 9 bar rotary with vst previously was fine at those settings, is the 3bar PI that forceful?

And how can show the shot down? As in saying, never had to grind that fine before, only for Brazilian coffees, yet this was Burundi lsol, and Guatemala foundry.. can I be grinding TOO fine and getting fat flow due to channeling instead? Can you choke a lever? If not then perhaps that's what's happening.

Anyway, will swap to OEM shower screen which I never actually tried to see if crack persists. But why do I get water gushing out sometimes during PI? Shower screen depth is a smidge different, could how it sits with gasket make such a difference?

I'll take any advice


----------



## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

This morning's update:

I swapped to OEM shower screen which has the blind spot in the middle to potentially address the crack I had in the middle with the kvdw one.

All 3 shots were 16g in - 34g out in londinium OEM basket 5 sec PI.

Fine grind, Distributed with tool, leveled bed with other tool and tamped firmly.

Shot 1 and 2 ran fast 22 & 26 sec excluding PI. Tasted thin and underextracted. Spent pucks were firm and dry, second one had crack in the middle (might not be the shower screen after all).

Shot 3 same prep but tamped with weight of tamper (it's a heavy one), but no additional pressure. Same 5sec PI but got 34g in 31sec, so it slowed it down. Taste was much better! Fruitier, still not great. EY 16.94% so still low but made a difference. However! Got a fine spritzer during shot and spent puck looked much different, dimply, wetter and more swollen.

No water sneeze from side of portafilter during PI today.

Shot 1










Shot 2










Shot 3


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Patience is good!

My first thoughts were distribution/chanelling. And then I thought about how often you mention tamper pressure. It is difficult . . . there are lots of variables, I am sure someone with more experience will come and offer some advice. I seem to have hit it off from day 1 with mine. You can see what shower screen etc I am using below. 15g basket etc. I will keep having a ponder and if I think of anything I will post.


----------



## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

I hesitate to post on this, as I have little experience and do not own a Londinium (yet!). But (and I expect Londinium owners are well aware of this), Reiss recommends a light tamp (very like your puck 3 tamp above). With my limited experience, I don't really know why this is - is it to do do with the lever pressure profile? Do Londinium owners follow Reiss's lead on this and generally do a light tamp, or do you stick to 'normal procedure' and use a firm tamp?


----------



## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

I would simply suggest grinding finer still and check your EY. If you're too fine then you won't get much increase


----------



## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Banjoman said:


> I hesitate to post on this, as I have little experience and do not own a Londinium (yet!). But (and I expect Londinium owners are well aware of this), Reiss recommends a light tamp (very like your puck 3 tamp above). With my limited experience, I don't really know why this is - is it to do do with the lever pressure profile? Do Londinium owners follow Reiss's lead on this and generally do a light tamp, or do you stick to 'normal procedure' and use a firm tamp?


In my experience light/heavy tamp doesn't make a dramatic difference, within reasonable upper and lower limits. Just aim to be as level as possible.


----------



## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

MildredM said:


> Patience is good!
> 
> My first thoughts were distribution/chanelling. And then I thought about how often you mention tamper pressure. It is difficult . . . there are lots of variables, I am sure someone with more experience will come and offer some advice. I seem to have hit it off from day 1 with mine. You can see what shower screen etc I am using below. 15g basket etc. I will keep having a ponder and if I think of anything I will post.


Thank you! Patience, I have endless of







and definitely confident of distribution and prep.

The need to grind that much finer for the same basket and bean when switching from 9bar static machine to lever with high PI pressure is throwing me off and also that the fact that tamping lighter slowed down the shot.

Getting more beans today to carry on testing.

I know you switched grinders at a similar time to your r58, but in the small overlap of time did you have to grind significantly finer on your Compak for the same bean when you switched to the LR?


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

christos_geo said:


> Thank you! Patience, I have endless of
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I seem to recall we did.

What shower screen are you using again? I only ask because Reiss suggests the 35μM

And re tamping pressure, I read that before the L-R arrived and it propmted me to check how hard I was tamping using the bathroom scale on the worktop.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Pre infusion > finer grind > plus if you were using an 18 on the r58 also . Plus its higher pressure pre infusion > needs finer grind .

How can a shot slow down ? coz there is limit to the water in the group and the pressure declines.


----------



## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

fluffles said:


> I would simply suggest grinding finer still and check your EY. If you're too fine then you won't get much increase


Tried that, got 0.2% increase in EY. Sounds like the point of diminishing returns... Ran of coffee so will try again.

As for tamp, I never gorilla tamp, just firm.


----------



## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

MildredM said:


> Yes, I seem to recall we did.
> 
> What shower screen are you using again? I only ask because Reiss suggests the 35μM
> 
> And re tamping pressure, I read that before the L-R arrived and it propmted me to check how hard I was tamping using the bathroom scale on the worktop.


Think the stock one is 200um but waiting for Reiss to get back to me on that one. The kvdw one is most likely 35um which should soften the blow on the puck during PI but no product code so almost impossible to tell.


----------



## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

christos_geo said:


> Think the stock one is 200um but waiting for Reiss to get back to me on that one. The kvdw one is most likely 35um which should soften the blow on the puck during PI but no product code so almost impossible to tell.


I would be amazed if this was anything to do with shower screen mesh size. I used to have an e37s and londinium, and they worked really well together with various shower screens and baskets... 16% is curiously low.

Have you checked puck isn't hitting shower screen before you pull the shot?


----------



## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

fluffles said:


> I would be amazed if this was anything to do with shower screen mesh size. I used to have an e37s and londinium, and they worked really well together with various shower screens and baskets... 16% is curiously low.
> 
> Have you checked puck isn't hitting shower screen before you pull the shot?


It is way too low, agreed. Don't think it's grinder related. Probably not shower screen or basket either. You had an L1 right? Or LR? If L1 you would have boiler pressure 1.3bar during PI as opposed to 3bar. I think that's what's causing me issues really.

Just got a kg of Ethiopian Workshop to experiment with.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

fluffles said:


> I would be amazed if this was anything to do with shower screen mesh size. I used to have an e37s and londinium, and they worked really well together with various shower screens and baskets... 16% is curiously low.
> 
> Have you checked puck isn't hitting shower screen before you pull the shot?


Plus one re Shower screen.

May I also ask the OP what his process , and equipment for measuring and calculating the EY is


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

3 bar pre infusion needs a fine grind.

How are you measuring and calculating EY.

Id use a 18g vst the 15g vst is a ball ache on any machine to get even.


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Normally when it's all over the place it's grinder related , if you are going for long pre infusion times you will need to grind really fine , 15g vst is achievable with patience .

chopping and changing things at a rapid pace is going to make diagnosing anything difficult.

decide what screen and basket you are going to use and stick with it , I still stand by it's the grinder .

ps. Don't get hung up by the numbers , how does it taste?

Taste is king


----------



## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Plus one re Shower screen.
> 
> May I also ask the OP what his process , and equipment for measuring and calculating the EY is


So, checked headroom on 3 separate occasions when swapping basket and shower screen and in all cases a 10 pence coin left no imprint when portafilter fully locked. I dosed all baskets to their spec.

Measuring EY was carried out using an Atago TDS refractometer. Shots were measured to the 0.1 of a gram, took up 1ml with a syringe, passed through 0.22um filter into an airtight cryovial and proceeded with measuring TDS. EY was calculated using VST coffee tools android software. Just to add, across a number of side by side measurements with Patrick's VST refractometer at the last forum day, the values were identical between the two, with higher resolution on the Atago.

@Thecatlinux, taste is king, couldn't agree more which is why I only refract after having tasted the shot so I'm am not influenced by the numbers. And I can tell the shots were thin, lacked body, sweetness and had the bitterness of underextraction. As for grinder, I got to do a couple of side by sides before selling my Duetto last week with same vst15 basket and the taste was better on the Duetto. The grinder was however dialed in for the Duetto, i.e. no PI therefore coarser so not a fair comparison.

Not a fan of changing multiple things at once, just wanted to go back to stock everything and work from there.

Thank you all for your continuous help!


----------



## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Maybe take a video of your process? Plus one for ditching the 15g basket, at least for now and come back to it when you're sorted, but I think they're only viable with lower pressure setups


----------



## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Oh, and the machine is definitely fully up to temperature? Needs to have been on for a good hour and the group should be too hot to touch


----------



## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

Yup, on for 1hr 30min before I even come close to it. Will go back to my vst18 for now then and make a vid sometime this week. Only went with the vst15 as Foundry would typically only use those for their setup. Thank you dear sir.


----------



## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

One of the biggest differences I found when moving from a pump to the L1, was that a very light tamp and very fine grind is needed, by light, I mean the tampers own weight.Its counter intuitive, I've found a harder tamp can result in a faster more uneven pour. I'd agreed with people above - 17g is a good point to start.


----------



## lucasd (Feb 24, 2015)

I heard that for LR recommended dose is -1g for VST.

So maybe try with 17 in 18g and 14g in 15g.


----------



## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

Update 2.0

Swapped back to my favourite 18g VST last night and sticking to it. Also all prep was as usual, distribution tool, ocd-like tool but all we tamped lightly, just finger pressure. Also grind kept same as before (finer than I've ever had to go with same basket on Duetto)

Shot 1 (last of Foundry Guatemala)

18g - 36g 30 sec + 5sec PI

Pour looked great, taste was even better, actually it was excellent. Rich, creamy, fruity







EY came to 19.03% (happy with that).

In terms of headspace however, with the light tamp a 10 pence coin gets almost entirely depressed into puck. Puck itself never touched shower screen.

Shot 2 (Guatemala)

Reduce dose to see if headspace was an issue

17g-35g 25sec + 5sec PI.

Tasted completely different, thinner, harsher, bitter, not pleasant. EY 18.05%

This morning started in workshop Ethiopian Bulega. Same grind as yesterday and same prep. Purged 20g.

Shot 1

18g - 37.9g 35sec + 6sec PI.

Yum! Chocolatey with mild acidity and slightly nutty. No bitterness with long lasting aftertaste. EY 20.01%

Shot 2 & 3 however almost choked it !

18g-37.7 55sec + 6sec PI. Sweet but such a bitter aftertaste that's still lingering. EY 20.77%

I feel shot 1 may still have been in between beans even though I'd purged loads..

In terms of headspace, again a 5 pence coin this time gets fully depressed into puck with 18g lightly tamped. However, puck itself doesn't touch. Are we ok with that? The Perspex portafilter videos suggest swelling occurs when pressure is relieved from puck.

Think we're getting somewhere. Also no portafilter sneezes of water during PI. Think that might have been the kvdw shower screen causing it.


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Yay great to hear you getting the results , I've no idea what my shower screen clearance is , I may try the coin on puck trick to feed my curiousty.

good news you getting good coffee ( can't go wrong with foundry )


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Enjoy the tasty drink , try not to get too distracted by perspex pf videos etc, they are nice to watch but probably not pertinent to what you are trying to achieve .


----------



## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Enjoy the tasty drink , try not to get too distracted by perspex pf videos etc, they are nice to watch but probably not pertinent to what you are trying to achieve .


Absolutely, but as a scientist I love obsessing (in a good way) about every little detail. Same way that I secretly hope things go wrong as it gives me an excuse to tinker









Consistency, replication and ultimate culinary reward go hand in hand.

Bit think I'm back on track, will bore you all with another update once I've come to more conclusions!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

christos_geo said:


> Absolutely, but as a scientist I love obsessing (in a good way) about every little detail. Same way that I secretly hope things go wrong as it gives me an excuse to tinker
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats brill news, sometimes too much info can distract from the bits that are really pertinent , this is a lesson i learnt the hard way .


----------



## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

@christos_geo - congratulations on the purchase! Was it the Rave day that got you thinking about a lever??

I would add that, with my Veloce (same group, but only boiler pressure PI) I have found that a longer PI leads to weaker shots and channelling. Holding my lever down for longer than 6s wets the puck too much and, all other things being equal, the shot runs faster and is weaker body and poorer extraction.

I have found a 5-6s PI and then gently engaging the lever is best.


----------



## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

rob177palmer said:


> @christos_geo - congratulations on the purchase! Was it the Rave day that got you thinking about a lever??
> 
> I would add that, with my Veloce (same group, but only boiler pressure PI) I have found that a longer PI leads to weaker shots and channelling. Holding my lever down for longer than 6s wets the puck too much and, all other things being equal, the shot runs faster and is weaker body and poorer extraction.
> 
> I have found a 5-6s PI and then gently engaging the lever is best.


That day was dangerous... as it was for you







guess a monolith next door each of us. . .

Regarding PI, I've never to date (a whole of 1 week) gone longer than 6 sec PI but was tempted to try this evening. Had a suspicion as you said it would end up tasting like a brewed coffee under pressure.

Actually I had a mini revelation when I decided to look back at my old notes. As PaulL had written on the wikidot set up by DaveC there is such a thing as a semi universal grind chart one can make based on bean origin. I.e. Brazilians will grind in region 5-6 on my Ceado whereas Ethiopians 6-7 and Costa Rica 4.5-5.8

These are ball park numbers but no matter the roaster they do typically fall within the ranges. That makes it easy to dial in when you have a starting point.

So! That really fine grind I was surprised I had to use for the Guatemalan was not in fact just a LR necessity. Turns out my old notes said I was grinding down at 4.5 for Guatemala on the Duetto. Only having had a couple bags of that origin previously I had forgotten!

Surely enough, when the current workshop Ethiopian went through the grinder at that fine setting it well and truly chocked the machine answering my question as to whether you can choke a lever. Yes you can.

I've now had to grind coarser (as is my experience with Ethiopians) and as a result also had to drop dose to 17.5 as it started doughnut-ing at 18g.

17.5-37.8 35sec + 6sec PI. Getting there but not balanced, some sweetness but bitter aftertaste. EY 20.2%


----------



## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

That's interesting to hear - I hadn't been keeping grind setting notes but that might be a good thing to start. I have been noting down on the tasting cards that come with beans as otherwise you forget what you like and what you don't!

I have to say that Day was a revelation but, as you say, very expensive!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If you are going to explore longer pre infusion then the grind needs to be adjusted significantly finer to have any positive impact.

There is a potential benefit to longer pre infusion ( Im talking all machines here not just levers ) and that is to be able to grind finer and extract more as a result.

As some have discovered simply doing a longer pre infusion on a nominal grind leads to faster shots post infusion and may not be to everyone tastes.


----------



## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

What a great thread. We did use 15g baskets for a while but that was purely about getting balanced milk drinks in cups that were too small. We swapped to 18g maybe 3 months ago and I'd agree with what people have already said - i.e it's easier to get good results.

For me, levers are a whole different learning experience. They tell you what's going on with the coffee in a way that just doesn't happen with pump machines. As you get to know it, you'll no doubt enjoy the feedback you get. I expect in general you may need to grind finer. It's not unusual for us to be taking 45 seconds to pull a shot, which includes a 6 second PI.


----------



## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> What a great thread. We did use 15g baskets for a while but that was purely about getting balanced milk drinks in cups that were too small. We swapped to 18g maybe 3 months ago and I'd agree with what people have already said - i.e it's easier to get good results.
> 
> For me, levers are a whole different learning experience. They tell you what's going on with the coffee in a way that just doesn't happen with pump machines. As you get to know it, you'll no doubt enjoy the feedback you get. I expect in general you may need to grind finer. It's not unusual for us to be taking 45 seconds to pull a shot, which includes a 6 second PI.


Thank you guys for all the info, much appreciated.

I think I did get to the bottom of this and it was the Guatemalan that totally threw me off with it's fine grind needs.. the kg of workshop Ethiopian I put through brought me back to my usual grind settings.

Sticking with the 18g VST as I mostly have and tamping lightly.

I had put together this handy table for myself but it may help others with their respective grinder.

As mentioned previously grind size as far as I've noticed tends to be quite origin specific.

These are the coffees I've logged for the Ceado e37s for 18gr vst and typically a 1:2 ratio in ~30sec and in relation to my dial positioning. There does appear to be a trend which will probably be found on most grinders.

This is by no means meant to be taken as an unchangeable parameter however, nor is it necessarily the absolute optimal setting for that bean. It does provide though an excellent starting point to the dialing in process allowing you to hone into the right setting with minimal wastage.

Also..... can be cheekily used to guess an LSOL, although I don't condone such behaviour 

Now that we are back on track I got my self some more Guatemalan, a figgy natural Rwandan and a kg of all time favourite Rocko mountain. Thanks Lee & Callum!


----------

