# What is the best way to use a la pavoni?



## coffeechap

Temperature control has long been an issue with the La Pavoni lever machines, primarily because it is a sealed unit once the cap is screwed tight and thus the ability to cool the group head and brew water is seriously diminished. No cold flush means a constant hot group. I know that the temperature within the boiler is controlled thermostatically, but as any pavoni user will tell you, once you get past three shots the machine is just running to hot and this seriously affects the flavour of the shot.

What modifications have people done to theirs to try and eliminate brew temp instability, I know temp tags can help, I know that the regime I use is an an off approach to using my la pavoni, ( I.e. turning the machine off once I have pulled the second shot, which is usually the best! Then turning it back on later when I want another shot) but this method means that if I have friends round I cannot give everyone a very good shot as the latter ones are getting a little to hot.

I am really interested in modifying mine to get the best out of it, as I feel this is such an underused and under appreciated little espresso machine, plus she is way to beautiful to not be used

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## lookseehear

I used to use the wet tea towel method of cooling down the group but I also tried using a mug of cool water and 'sucking' it up into the brew chamber by lifting the lever while it was submersed at the shower screen.

The temperature stickers (got mine from OE) were essential. I would start shot prep with the group at 90 or so, although the most important thing I found was getting the grind right and getting a good feel for how much pressure was require on the lever.


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## gmason

Beautiful looking machine, Coffeechap. I wonder how many of these end up at the back of cupboards or simply become kitchen eye-candy after the owners give up possibly having bought for the wrong reasons. Doesn't seem to stop the flow in terms of sales. Been tracking for six months on eBay and they certainly hold their prices - few bargains, it seems.


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## 4085

Dave, I would search for a second one then use them as book ends.


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## coffeechap

lookseehear said:


> I used to use the wet tea towel method of cooling down the group but I also tried using a mug of cool water and 'sucking' it up into the brew chamber by lifting the lever while it was submersed at the shower screen.
> 
> The temperature stickers (got mine from OE) were essential. I would start shot prep with the group at 90 or so, although the most important thing I found was getting the grind right and getting a good feel for how much pressure was require on the lever.


Totally agree, these are so much grind specific, and tamp pressure is vital too, once mastered along with the lever pull they can produce truly stellar shots of espresso, which is why some form of instruction and guidance is vital on these. Most people I know that have one, have completely fallen short in the grinder section and as such have relegated them to an ornament or a cupboard, having shown people the benefits of the right grinder, the sceptics have gone back to their lever.

The towel method is a great idea, what I am looking for is maybe more internal Thermal adjustment! However thanks for your suggestion.


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## coffeechap

dfk41 said:


> Dave, I would search for a second one then use them as book ends.


And that's because you are a reverse sprung lever junky who like me opts to take the easy route out in regard to using lever machines........


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## coffeechap

gmason said:


> Beautiful looking machine, Coffeechap. I wonder how many of these end up at the back of cupboards or simply become kitchen eye-candy after the owners give up possibly having bought for the wrong reasons. Doesn't seem to stop the flow in terms of sales. Been tracking for six months on eBay and they certainly hold their prices - few bargains, it seems.


This answer is simple, far too many! I wonder how many pump driven machines will be around for as long as these? This one is 20 years old!


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## 4085

But if you buy two, you could alternate them. Just cover the unused one with a tea towel a bit like you would a parrot in a cage then when you guests are not watching, switch the tea towels over and hey presto!


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## coffeechap

dfk41 said:


> But if you buy two, you could alternate them. Just cover the unused one with a tea towel a bit like you would a parrot in a cage then when you guests are not watching, switch the tea towels over and hey presto!


Tut tut tut David, is your dislike for the beautiful little pavonis skill based? If so I would gladly give you some tuition on how to get a great shot from one.


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## 4085

Hey, I have some lovely bookends, and they cannot make coffee either......


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## coffeechap

dfk41 said:


> Dave, I would search for a second one then use them as book ends.


I agree they make lovely book ends as well

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## 4085

Dave, I nearly agree but you could make an effort and find matching ones


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## painty

Nisbets were selling these off for £115 once upon a time, quite a steal really.


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## coffeechap

dfk41 said:


> Dave, I nearly agree but you could make an effort and find matching ones


So sorry how very common of me perhaps this will suffice

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## coffeechap

painty said:


> Nisbets were selling these off for £115 once upon a time, quite a steal really.


If they still were I would buy a hundred of them and make a very tidy profit indeed anyway back to the point, how can these be modded for better temperature stability?


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## mathof

The two thoughts I have are (1) employ a teflon gasket between the group and the boiler, (2) adjust the pressurestat to the lowest practicable point (max 0.7 bar?). Anyway, these are the two mods that I've been meaning to get round to for my (1999) pre-millennium model. (I have read that the later models, with the redesigned group, are more stable.)


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## scrubadub

Install a PID?

http://www.home-barista.com/levers/la-pavoni-pid-better-temperature-control-t17073.html


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## NickR

Temperature stability of only one of the problems. Without a constant pressure source, such as a spring or pump its very difficult to gauge the right grind to give the right pressure to give the right duration of pour - and two pulls for a double is ridiculous. I found that I got very thin, very bitter espresso 90% of the time.


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## coffeechap

scrubadub said:


> Install a PID?
> 
> http://www.home-barista.com/levers/la-pavoni-pid-better-temperature-control-t17073.html


If only I had the technical know how and tools.


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## lookseehear

In my opinion a PID is pointless on one of these. The issue isn't the stability of the boiler its the fact that the boiler is at steam temp and is therefore always heating up the group. Even if you keep the boiler at 92-93 degrees you would have issues getting the group up to the temp you need so that the water is also the right temp.

One method I saw was to use a heat sink attached to the group, but it does ruin the look of the thing. OE also do the 'third shot' (I think for the cremina) which is a sort of replacement portafilter with big thermal mass to cool down the group.

I think the heat sink idea has the most merit. Its a while since I did any thermodynamics but I'm pretty sure the rate that a body radiates heat is proportional to the difference in temp between the body and its surroundings, but also proportional to the mass to surface area ratio.

What this means in practice is that if you get the shape and size of the heat sink right you should be able to reach an equilibrium group temp of 90 or so with the standard pressurestat settng - so that when the hotter water from the boiler gets to the coffee it should be at 92-93 ish. After pulling a shot you might need to leave it a few minutes to stabilise but theoretically unless your kitchen temp changes a lot it would work better than the current situation!


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## coffeechap

NickR said:


> Temperature stability of only one of the problems. Without a constant pressure source, such as a spring or pump its very difficult to gauge the right grind to give the right pressure to give the right duration of pour - and two pulls for a double is ridiculous. I found that I got very thin, very bitter espresso 90% of the time.


Tell me what grinder were you using, as the shots with my eureka mythos are excellent!


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## coffeechap

lookseehear said:


> In my opinion a PID is pointless on one of these. The issue isn't the stability of the boiler its the fact that the boiler is at steam temp and is therefore always heating up the group. Even if you keep the boiler at 92-93 degrees you would have issues getting the group up to the temp you need so that the water is also the right temp.
> 
> One method I saw was to use a heat sink attached to the group, but it does ruin the look of the thing. OE also do the 'third shot' (I think for the cremina) which is a sort of replacement portafilter with big thermal mass to cool down the group.
> 
> I think the heat sink idea has the most merit. Its a while since I did any thermodynamics but I'm pretty sure the rate that a body radiates heat is proportional to the difference in temp between the body and its surroundings, but also proportional to the mass to surface area ratio.
> 
> What this means in practice is that if you get the shape and size of the heat sink right you should be able to reach an equilibrium group temp of 90 or so with the standard pressurestat settng - so that when the hotter water from the boiler gets to the coffee it should be at 92-93 ish. After pulling a shot you might need to leave it a few minutes to stabilise but theoretically unless your kitchen temp changes a lot it would work better than the current situation!


I do have a slightly beaten up one that I don't mind changing the appearance of


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## mathof

I would like to put on record that if you are only making one shot at a time (i.e. starting from a cold machine), you can make excellent, consistent shots. Or at least I can: in fact, I just made and drank one. Assuming all of the obvious factors are right - good fresh, rested coffee; a well-maintained machine; good water (I use Volvic); good grinder (I have a Pharos), properly dialled-in; reliable distribution and tamping technique - the magic extra ingredient is group thermometry. Experimentation has shown me that at my current pressurestat setting, if I raise the lever when the group is at 82.5C (at the point where my temperature probe is placed) and give 8 seconds of pre infusion to a 13.5 gram puck), and then pull smoothly through the arc, I get a good-looking, good-tasting shot every time. The La Pavoni is not a forgiving machine but if you get the details right, it is a rewarding one.


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## coffeechap

I completely agree as a single shot or two at the most can produce wonderful shots, but for any more then the temperature really becomes an issue..


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## NickR

coffeechap said:


> Tell me what grinder were you using, as the shots with my eureka mythos are excellent!


I was using a Rocky. The grinder was not the problem - same grinder and an E61 machine, nice thick gloopy espresso.


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## mathof

I used to use a Rocky and I could only rarely get it dialled in correctly. One reason was the fixed gaps between settings. I also never got the foamy crema or complex flavours that the Pharos brings out.


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## coffeechap

NickR said:


> I was using a Rocky. The grinder was not the problem - same grinder and an E61 machine, nice thick gloopy espresso.


Agree with other comments, the rocky is no proper match for the la pavoni due to the grind increments, the e61 is much more forgiving than the la pavoni, the shots I get have lovely crema and when you get the knack of a short pull then raise lever again you get a proper output from the shot. Of course you can never get a double shot out of the la pavoni as the basket only really holds 12grams.


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## NickR

I found that with the infinitely adjustable brew pressure of the Pavoni, distinct increments presented absolutely no problems whatsoever. In fact I now regret following the herd and upgrading to a Mazzer E.


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## coffeechap

Wow, that's interesting, as the mazzer mini is so highly regarded, what are your issues with it


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## NickR

The biggest problem with the Mazzer E is horrific grind retention -about 10 grams! the other is the shockingly coarse grind adjustment. I noticed absolutely no difference in my coffee upgrading from the Rocky, whereas I got a huge, and very noticeable improvement upgrading from the Mazzer to a Pharos. It has other problems to, but I don't want to hi jack the thread.


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## coffeechap

Actually I have the Pharos as well, got it for the grind off and must say early impressions are good. Mazzers usually don't retain that much coffee, have you tried using the rubber egg poacher method for getting the last bits out of the Shute? Are you single dosing? I have used an sj with my pavoni and got great results, did you ever get to try the Pharos with the pavoni?


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## NickR

I've not heard of the rubber egg poacher method, but I don't think it would work for the Mazzer E as it has a grid at the end of the shute.

I've only had the Pharos for about a year, so never tried it with my Pavoni - Its a very difficult grinder to dial in with a constant pressure pump, how on earth do you do it with a Pavoni? I found this to be one of the most difficult aspects of operating the Pavoni, getting reasonable shot times without cheating on the pressure applied.


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## painty

^ a lot of people just take the grid out, don't they. On balance, having to make with the dissecting needle is going to be preferable to stale grounds or wasted coffee.


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## garydyke1

I tried grid-out on the mini-e. great for single dosing , access to chute, however fines would stick to the funnel and need brushing out & terrible channelling no matter what. Best grid back in and use with semi-full hopper.


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## Maz100

I'm using a mini e with my pavoni. As other people have mentioned the second shot is definitely the best. As for grind retention, there is some for sure. I tend to empty a 250g bag into the hopper in one go. Given that the unit is only capable of retaining a certain amount I'm fairly certain that once max retention has occurred fresh grinds pass over the retained grinds. I certainly don't notice stale tasting coffee and get consistent quality till the hopper is empty which is usually just under a week. Others may have keener taste buds than me but I love my set up and would only consider getting another machine if I was going to set it up elsewhere in the house.


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## coffeechap

I pulled a fantastic shot today using the compact k10 and a 1975 europiccola, so smooth and full of body and depth, it was the second shot, but then my friend was over so gave him the first one, I still love the fact thati get great coffee from a fourth year old machine, and am sure it will still be around in another forty years.


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## soundklinik

coffeechap said:


> I pulled a fantastic shot today using the compact k10 and a 1975 europiccola, so smooth and full of body and depth, it was the second shot, but then my friend was over so gave him the first one, I still love the fact thati get great coffee from a fourth year old machine, and am sure it will still be around in another forty years.


In another thread you mentioned you would explain how to make a great shot from La Pavoni...



> If so I would gladly give you some tuition on how to get a great shot from one.


Would you mind giving a complete Lever n00b a short lesson-tutorial please?

Or is there such a guide on the forum on "how to" for Lever machines?

Thanks in advance


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## coffeechap

of course, the key to a good shot on the la pavonis is temperature, lever pressure, grind, tamp I will cover each of these seperately.

Temperature

la pavonis unless extensively modified have a tendency to get overheated at the group if used for multiple shots at a time, in my experiance the best shots have come from the second and third pulls from the machine strting from cold. So fill up the boiler and switch on the machine, it will take approximately 15-20 minutes to heat up. on the profeesionla the machine is almost at temp when the dial reads between 1 and 1.2 bar, all you need to do is a quick flush by raising the lever, to bring the group up to temp. The first shot tends to be slightly cool and the next to on the money, subsequent shots get to hot. You can col the group down using a cold wet cloth over the group, or alternatively turn the machine off after doing a few espressos.

Grind

The la pavoni demand a fairly fine grind and a medium to light tamp as with most levers, grinding slightly finer and easing up on the tamp give a fuller extraction, so you will have to experiment on the grind fineness, but if you are used to grinding for say a gaggia classic then grind finer than that.

lever pressure

having dosed the portafilter with fine ground coffee and tamp light to medium with even pressure, load the portafilter into the machine, raise the lever and allow the water to come from the boiler under boiler pressure and saturate the top of the puck (pre infusion) gently start to lower the lever then raise again to full fill the piston housing. Now you should be able to push down on the lever smoothly without a lott of pressure to extract the shot, if you are really struggling to lower the lever then grind is too fine or tamp is too firm. Once lowering the lever it should move smoothly but need pressure to get it going (you are the pump) the shot should extract evenly and smoothly with plenty of body.

hope this helps, please feel free to ask any more questions.


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## superano

Hi everyone,

I have the post millenium model. I had a previous semi automatic machine and also a rok. I learned how to make esspresso on a rok. So the issue with that was getting the temperatures up. But i took so much time to finally understand grinds, koffie, tamp pressure, temperatures, brewing pressure, pre-infusion.

If you want all these really under control, and make the same everytime, i suggest a very high profile and expensive design. And then you still bump in to the learning curve in how to make espresso and controlling all the parameters. As i learned it on a ROK and waisted so much coffee. But there wasn't anything else to do with COVID-19 lockdown. Now having the Lever i couldn't be happyer. All the pro's and the cons? If i have a group of people at the table i would not be in the kitchen making back to back shots. Hey, i am not a coffee shop. It takes 2 or 3 min to clean and prep and 6 a 7 min to heat up. It would take a half an hour and a mess in the kitchen. So, i would suggest a pour over. Its also very good koffie, and a respectable way of making koffie, and why would you make an espresso after dinner anyways?

If you want 2 or 3 shots back to back and you know how to do it, it really doesn't get any better than these beautiful machines. I upgraded some things. Bought the digital temp gauge. Mine is a professional with the bigger boiler. Also changed to 20 g IMS baskets. Have also the IMS 14-16 g Basket. It really works if you consider a new hobby. If you just want koffie. Don't bother to buy one. Usually when people are not happy with things they are trying to upgrade but in fact it's a very capable machine. You just need to learn how to. I suggest to not inform online but to visit people who actually know what they are doing and learn......

Cheers...


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## Flat Eric

I own a post millennial Europiccola and don't have any issues with overheating, in fact, my biggest problem has been to get the grouphead hot enough. I've made a lot of bad coffee on my LP, it was only when I upgraded from temp strips to a digital temp gauge that I started making half decent shots.


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## coffeechap

Nice to see this old thread revisited once in a while.

what is fantastic is the advancement in aftermarket add ins to pavonis since my original post.

you can now get the bong isolator which stabilises the group temp very well. The PPK (pressure profiling kit) developed nicely by coffee sensor, is an awesome bit of kit for the la pavoni.

new group sleeves are now available as well as pretty much most parts to this 60 year old design


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## jamezcarroll

Coffee bike beginner, any advise?


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