# Advice on puck preparation for newbie



## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

Thanks to suggestions on this forum, I finally purchased a Sage Bambino Plus and a Niche grinder combo. I realized it'd take me some time to master it, so I didn't want to jump for the "expensive" beans and instead went with a Lavazza Super Crema. They're quite "stale", that is, manufactured early 2020, but presumably only expire next year if you trust the bag...I realize this is not ideal, so if you tell me I'll never be able to pull a good shot with them we can end the conversation here. But keep in mind I'm coming from Nespresso so my standards aren't super high.

Anyhow, I should probably take a video of my "process", but I'll attempt a verbal description:

I'm using a 2 cup, single wall basket with a naked portafilter. As a reminder, the Breville is 54mm not the standard 58. I first turn on the machine and run some water through it (without the portafilter) to "get it going" / heat up. I weigh around 17-18g of beans with a coffee scale and grind them at the setting of 18 on the Niche (whatever that means). I then pour it into the basket fitted with a dosing funnel. It's a lot of coffee, so it easily goes over the rim of the basket and around the funnel. Possibly due to the age of the coffee or how oily it is, the ground coffee tends to be a bit "sticky" (moist perhaps?), making it tricky to even pour all of it out of the cup. I then try to tap the portafilter to get all the coffee into the basket and off the funnel. By the time I'm done with this process I've lost about 10% of coffee to the counter...

Next, I use a distributor / tamp combo tool, distributor side first on the shallowest setting. Because the coffee is overflowing, some more spills out in the process and some is left on the rim / sides of the portafilter. I try to give it a few taps and use the distributor again. Finally, I tamp with the reverse side of the tool (which is basically a palm tamper). I set it to the same height as Breville's razor tool since I figured that's just below the shower head. After about 10 seconds coffee starts flowing out. There's some channeling, though not too bad (my first attempts were quite messy, especially when I was using >20 grind setting). I measure about 34-36g coffee out and manually stop the brewing. Takes about 30 seconds to get there. I can see a small amount of water on the top of the puck after brewing.

This process left me feeling like something is a bit off. So just wondering if folks have any input / comments / suggestions. Additionally, I wonder if folks can help me with some ball park numbers:

1. Which dose should I aim for in the 54mm basket?

2. Grind setting to use on the Niche. I know it's trial and error, just want to get a rough starting point for this type of commercial coffee.

3. Which depth setting to aim for on the palm tamper.

Thanks in advance!


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

Need to make one amendment which is I probably timed the coffee incorrectly. It is closer to 20 seconds, so I assume maybe I should go even finer on the Niche?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Yeah its the beans 🤣

You can buy cheap enough beans from many places there loads of good roadters that dont cost the earth.

Rave fudge blend is very easy and forgiving for some one new.

Does the sage still come with the blade tool?

Try dosing a little less, 16/17g

Sage can make nice coffee i had a duo temp pro


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> Yeah its the beans


 I'm actually from the US, but I've just ordered a bag of fresh beans from a local roaster and will give that a shot.



Cuprajake said:


> Does the sage still come with the blade tool?


 It does, why do you ask?



Cuprajake said:


> Try dosing a little less, 16/17g


 Will try that. I seriously have no idea how folks fit 18g in that basket.


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## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

I have the Bambino (paired with the Solo grinder). I was regularly dosing 19g in my double basket until recently when I've been dosing 17g.

I do a pre-infusion of 8 seconds (hold down the 2 cup button for 8 seconds before releasing) and I generally tend to get a 34g drink in 30-35 seconds with most beans (decaf always run quicker but I probably need to take these much finer when grinding).

Pucks tend to be a little wet when they come out but the coffee tastes great so not worried about this.

As Cuprajake says - get rid of those beans - unless they've been frozen for well over a year there's no way they can possibly still be fresh whatever it states on the label. Once you're using fresh coffee (that's been rested appropriately) you'll be making great drinks I'm sure.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

the blade tool is good for showing you the depth, so put some grounds in the portafiler, use the old stuff (its a test) and then use the blade to scrape it to the level, then set your spinner to this depth.

weight is a funny one as different beans and grind will fill the basket differently


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

The dose will depend on the roast e.g. darker roasts are less dense so you can't get as many grams in the portafilter as you can with a lighter roast that is more dense.


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## pphaneuf (Apr 20, 2021)

I've got one of those Crema double-sided distribution/tamping tools, when the basket is very full, I don't like using the distribution side, as even on its shallowest setting, it still kind of half-tamps the middle?

When very full, I do some WDT with a thin pin instead.


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

pphaneuf said:


> I've got one of those Crema double-sided distribution/tamping tools, when the basket is very full, I don't like using the distribution side, as even on its shallowest setting, it still kind of half-tamps the middle?
> 
> When very full, I do some WDT with a thin pin instead.


 I've got exactly the same one! It's interesting because after distribution there's nothing to tamp


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## pphaneuf (Apr 20, 2021)

Dannydan said:


> I've got exactly the same one! It's interesting because after distribution there's nothing to tamp


 If you've got a bottomless portafilter too, you can often see the "doughnut" shape when the coffee starts coming out when you use the distribution tool on a lot of coffee... That seems to be because the middle part (which essentially only comes down, and doesn't really distribute anything!) just presses down what coffee is there, in a sort of pre-tamping, so there's an uneven patch near the centre of the puck where the grounds are denser.

This seems to get worse when the basket is more full, but when the basket isn't overflowing, I do use the distributor, and while there might be a bit of "doughnut" happening, it's not too severe, and I'm happy with the taste, which is probably the most important! 🙂


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

pphaneuf said:


> you can often see the "doughnut" shape when the coffee starts coming out when you use the distribution tool on a lot of coffee...


 I don't even need to wait until the coffee starts coming out. I can see a circular imprint on the puck before I insert the portafilter into the machine. Makes me wonder if this "combo" is really just an expensive palm tamp since the distribution side is useless.


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

sigh, so I bought fresh roasted beans from a local shop that's presumably one of the best in the country, and I'm still getting channeling and incredibly sour coffee.

Do you guys know anyone who might be offer virtual 1:1 consultations?


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## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

How freshly roasted are the beans? Usually they need 7 days or so to degass before they are suitable to use.

Might be worth taking a video of your preparation.

Don't expect miracles straight away. You've got a great set up there and will take some time to get to know your equipment.

A new grinder will take time for the burrs to season and consistency will come with practice.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Dannydan said:


> Next, I use a distributor / tamp combo tool, distributor side first on the shallowest setting. Because the coffee is overflowing, some more spills out in the process and some is left on the rim / sides of the portafilter. I try to give it a few taps and use the distributor again. Finally, I tamp with the reverse side of the tool (which is basically a palm tamper). I set it to the same height as Breville's razor tool since I figured that's just below the shower head. After about 10 seconds coffee starts flowing out. There's some channeling, though not too bad (my first attempts were quite messy, especially when I was using >20 grind setting). I measure about 34-36g coffee out and manually stop the brewing. Takes about 30 seconds to get there. I can see a small amount of water on the top of the puck after brewing.
> 
> This process left me feeling like something is a bit off. So just wondering if folks have any input / comments / suggestions. Additionally, I wonder if folks can help me with some ball park numbers:
> 
> ...


 Sounds like you're dosing far too much here. With the new fresh roasted coffee maybe it's not overflowing?

Anyway, make sure that when you lock the portafilter into the group the puck doesn't get disturbed. There should be enough clearance to put a 5p piece onto the puck, lock the PF in and remove it without getting an imprint from the coin. The razor tool should take care of that.

If your coffee is sour then grind finer or pull a longer ratio. It's possible to get channeling from using a grind that's too fine too but you're probably not doing that.

Regarding the prep, don't use the distributor and then tap and then use the distributor again. Tap to level it out and then either tamp or use the distributor and then tamp. I tap the side of the PF to get a level bed, tap down on the counter once to settle, and then either use a distributor or just tamp straight away. Don't tap down on the counter more than once and don't tap on the side of the pf with your hand after using the distributor or tamping.


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> Don't tap down on the counter more than once


 That interesting, I'm definitely tapping multiple times since I have a hard time getting everything leveled with a single tap. Why just a single tap? I'm struggling with the whole tapping thing in general...Even just tapping the side of the PF, either I tap too weakly and the coffee barely moves, or I tap a bit stronger and it moves too much and spills. Also, something about the consistency of the coffee doesn't seem right. It clumps up too easily. Maybe that's normal though. I'll try to get a video, just need an overhead camera mount.


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

Ok folks, I took some videos. Please go easy on me


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

You're dosing too much, other than that things don't look bad. Grind finer or pull the shot to a longer ratio if it's sour. You'll need to let the fresh coffee rest a few days to be able to get it to extract properly. Also the tapping is something you'll get with practice but it looks like you're doing it too fast and too softly, maybe everyone has a slightly different technique but I do it hard enough to see the coffee jumping and space the taps out so it's settling just as the next tap comes in. Difficult to tell though could just be the massive overflowing dose. Just a single tap on the counter, I don't know why just more more than one messes up probably compacts grinds on the bottom of the pf too much.


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> You're dosing too much


 How much would you lower the dose? 1-2g? Strange thing is everyone says how this basket fits 18g, I have no clue how that's remotely possible. That said, when I lower the dose, I'm back to spraying again. It's like I can't win, sigh.


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

Also, any guess to why the coffee is so clumpy and moist?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

You need to wdt that. Stif the grinds to break the clumps. It will also settle them in the basket a tad. People use 0.4mm needles


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Dannydan said:


> Also, any guess to why the coffee is so clumpy and moist?


 Oily dark roast or just very old and oil has come out of the beans. Clumps from a combo of static and oil.



Dannydan said:


> How much would you lower the dose? 1-2g? Strange thing is everyone says how this basket fits 18g, I have no clue how that's remotely possible. That said, when I lower the dose, I'm back to spraying again. It's like I can't win, sigh.


 Well it certainly looks as if you're dosing too much, but you use the razor tool so presumably the puck is sitting at the right height. Maybe it's just how it is with Sage/Breville machines. Having grinds spilling out of the basket like that will make it harder to distribute. You don't NEED to WDT but it might make things easier.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Sage machines are quite different to 58mm single/double boiler machines. When I owned a Sage Barista Pro (same thermojet system) the Sage technician gave the following answer when I was concerned about low temp:

"The temperature result of coffee will be dependent on the conditions set by user. We controlled the flow based on Coffee roasted freshness, selecting the correct grind size, adding enough coffee in the portafilter, tamping evenly. All these variables must exist on the thermojet products otherwise consumers WILL experience coffee not at the optimum temperature."

If I remember correctly the thermojet machines need a higher dose for optimal flow so you need to dose at least 18g (I used 19g).

On the Niche I find the more you disturb the grinds the more they will clump. So if you don't tap the dosing cup on the counter and simple invert and dose into pf, you should see fewer clumps, albeit more grounds left behind in the cup. You can tap those out if need be.

I do find WDT does help with extraction (0.4mm needles as Cuprajake said). I didn't try it with the Sage machines but might be worthwhile. Something like this:









As Rob1 mentioned, might be tricky with the smaller Sage PF.


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## Dannydan (Apr 25, 2021)

HVL87 said:


> Sage machines are quite different to 58mm single/double boiler machines. When I owned a Sage Barista Pro (same thermojet system) the Sage technician gave the following answer when I was concerned about low temp:
> 
> "The temperature result of coffee will be dependent on the conditions set by user. We controlled the flow based on Coffee roasted freshness, selecting the correct grind size, adding enough coffee in the portafilter, tamping evenly. All these variables must exist on the thermojet products otherwise consumers WILL experience coffee not at the optimum temperature."
> 
> ...


 Ugh, why do I feel like I'm going to end up with a conventional $2k espresso machine...

Here I was thinking the grinder is the most important investment and I can get by with the Bambino. That said, even the Niche produces odd grinds, like moist sand. Not those beautiful salt-like grinds that I see in everyone's videos.


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## pphaneuf (Apr 20, 2021)

Dannydan said:


> That said, when I lower the dose, I'm back to spraying again. It's like I can't win, sigh.


 I'm putting in 16g with the coffee I'm using at the moment, and it's a bit messy (I've got a bottomless portafilter), but not too bad? When it comes out, the cake is quite soggy, though! I'm eyeing those 12-18g IMS baskets as something that might improve things...


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## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

I have also heard that the Bambino works best with a 19g dose. Since getting my Solo I have been taking the dose down to 17g and the pucks are much wetter as a result.

I've just made a couple of coffees and gone back to 19g doses and the pucks are definitely less wet when knocking them out.


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## pphaneuf (Apr 20, 2021)

dutchy101 said:


> I have also heard that the Bambino works best with a 19g dose.


 Yes, I'm seeing the same. With the previous beans, I was using an 18g dose, and that came out fairly neatly. This coffee is a bit lighter, and I'm trying to give it less work to do, hence the 16g dose...


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Dannydan said:


> Here I was thinking the grinder is the most important investment and I can get by with the Bambino. That said, even the Niche produces odd grinds, like moist sand. Not those beautiful salt-like grinds that I see in everyone's videos.


 The bambino should be fine, plenty of people get good coffee from them. The niche isn't responsible for the 'moist sand', it's the coffee you're using...

Also just to add, the puck being soggy or dry doesn't indicate a good or bad extraction.


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