# Compak K10 Conical - Changed my coffee life - THANK YOU!



## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Well folks,

My grinder journey has reached a new level recently.

In terms of Titan grinders ive had an Aristarco EM80 (I think that was the model number, maybe wrong) a Brasilia RR55OD and a Mazzer Major with Titi burrs (now with Urbanbumpkin - cant wait to see the paint job he has done) and I have played with many others including an SJ, the EK43, a Royal, HG1 and a Versalab to name but a few. Some I liked more than others.

The Major was a real step up in terms of personal ownership and I thought I'd have that for life.

I'd seen dfk41's recommendation for conical burr grinders and in particular the K10, I'd spoken to coffeechap at length about them but was frankly somewhat sceptical that conical burrs could produce such a different flavour profile in the cup.

One thing that kept on nagging away at me was that I'd always had a single sugar in my espresso. I always found that no matter how good a shot I pulled I still wanted sugar to soften and of course sweeten my espresso and I just couldn't get on with any beans roasted less than medium/dark and always found them too sharp and bright (not sour) even with sugar. The same was always true for me for any coffee with fruity and/or citrus type descriptions.

Then in late 2014, I spent a couple of days helping out our Coffeechap at the London Restaurant show/exhibition on the Londinium Stand. It was good fun.

We were of course running an L1 but paired with a Compak K10 PB and an Electra Nino, both of which run the same 64mm conical burrs. We were using two Rave coffees, one being Ethiopia hunda oli and I can't now as I type recall the other. Both slightly lighter roasts than I might normally go for and certainly the Ethiopia was a fruity type coffee.

Well, creature comforts were at a bit of a premium on the stand and we didn't have any sugar, but once dialled in I found not only did I love both coffees but that I really really didn't need or want any sugar! I could taste the fruity notes in the Ethiopia and they were beautifully rounded and not sharp flavours and full of sweetness. Dave insisted that this was in no small part down to the consistency and quality of the type of grind these two grinders were producing.

Having got some of these coffees back home, I set about recreating what I'd enjoyed at the show with the same machine, the L1, the same bean (Ethiopia), the same dose in and out and shot time. I just couldn't get near it. I could still get the fruity flavours but not with the same clarity and with a lot more sharpness/tartness and sugar was needed again.

The only thing that was different was the grinder. Now the major has some big burrs and as we know the bigger the burrs the better in the cup, but it seemed that conical burrs were doing some sort of magic that coffee boffins probably get but I don't, that was producing what was for me a wonderfully smooth, round and naturally sweet result in the cup.

Thanks to Spence (Xpenno) I managed to get my hands on a Compak K10 of my own a few weeks back. The passage of time had dulled my memory and I was worried that letting the Major go in favour of this might somehow be wrong but I was reassure by both Coffeechap and Spence and took the plunge.

Boy am I glad I did!

I feel like I have rediscovered coffee and that a whole world of roasts/bean types I didn't get along with before have been opened up for me.

The result in the cup is just stunning and in a different world to any grinder I've had at home before. The end result is somehow gloopier and more dense, more crema, and I'm getting a ton more of flavours and as I've said above all the rough/sharp/tart edges have gone. The sweetness in the cup is astonishing and was most definitely missing in a flat burr grind for me. My sugar intake has nosedived as a result and I am mostly now drinking 'nude' espresso as it should be.

I had some of the Ethopia left in my freezer and I'd been using that in the major in the days leading up to to swapping and on the morning of the big swap. These were the first beans in the K10 when I got home and it seemed as if I was using a totally different (and much nicer!) bean via the conic.

So, I am now a Conical burr convert.

The difference I am here to tell you is quite literally "night and day"


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Come to think of it I think the other bean was Colombian suarez


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Glad to hear that you're enjoying it mate


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Absolutely fookin lovin it!


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## Terranova (Feb 15, 2014)

CamV6 said:


> Now the major has some big burrs and as we know the bigger the burrs the better in the cup


Congrats for finding your personal best combo.

Anyway it is still a myth which has been repeated to often, that the burr size got such a positive impact on taste.



> The danger of dogma
> 
> "Again, you know what you taste and what you like. You seem to have found the right combo of machine, grinder and coffee beans. However, this does not mean your holy grail will be experienced by everyone else." --Jim Piccinich,


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Actually whilst I am on the subject, I should add a couple of other notes on what I'm loving about the K10 Conic.

1. RPM. the slower burr speed I'm utterly convinced has a big impact too

2. The lower noise level. This is easily the quietest grinder I've had. Its so much less noisy in the grind and the doser mechanism is so smooth and less 'thwacky' (?) . My Mrs always used to moan about the sound of the Major's doser. She doesn't bat an eyelid now.

3. I must give a massive and gracious thank you to Xpenno. He's modded this K10 so well for single dosing that this grinder is a dream for a single doser like me. With exactly the same process (slightly less faff in fact) as with the Major I get out of this exactly what I put in, thus blowing the myth about conics and retention.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Could you do a clip of your work flow , so we can see the process , to get the retention down ? Is it bump and grind ? brush ? Pulse on and off?


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Grind, puff, brush, pulse, brush, pulse, brush,.

Job done


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

CamV6 said:


> Come to think of it I think the other bean was Colombian suarez


Yes, one of coffeechaps favourite in flat whites up to 6oz. That, along with Italian Job will be the first two beans I try from Rave.

Your findings and comments sum up what many other members and moderators have long said...quality of your grinder is equally, if not more, important as your choice of espresso machine. It's one of the main reasons I opted for a Ceado E37 as my first grinder over the usual suggestions of ones such as Eureka Mignon, Mazzer SJ, Brasila/Rossi RR55. Have a long way to go improving my techniques before I consider a grinder upgrade but after reading your excellent and detailed post Camv6, that might now be sometime sooner!


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Work flow is easy for single dose, minimal retention.

Mine was dose, weigh down, grind, sweep, pulse, sweep, thwack.


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

CamV6 said:


> Grind, puff, brush, pulse, brush, pulse, brush,.
> 
> Job done


I agree with everything that Cam has said about the quality of the grind with these burrs, but my K10 was returned to the shop... I just couldn't cope with the above...

Some people might have more patience than me though...

It... er... has been said before!









Oh...

I have the Nino (not sure whether it was the one you used Cam), it has the same burr set as the K10, but is an on-demand model with low retention...

What was your impression of the Nino, compared to the K10 Cam?

I am very pleased and would recommend any grinder with that burr set, the rest depends (as ever) on which shortcomings one is prepared to live with.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

TBH I don't believe there is anything much in it at all in the cup between the two machines at all but I prefer the dosered K10 as you cant really single dose and switch between coffees on the Nino like you can on the K10


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Is there an rpm difference between the two machines ( Nino , k10 ) . Given your summation there isn't much I'm the cup between em but you inferred that you thought lower rpm might be factor in detecting cup quality also ?


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

I don't know TBH. My comment about RPM wasn't intended with any comparison of the two conic machines in mind so I cant comment on that.

What I will say is that my comment on RPM is based on what I can see and hear. Its abundantly obvious to my assessment that the motor is turning less fast than the Major's did


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Very interesting to hear your thoughts on the conical grinder .

I'm really close to going down the conical route and I'm after an e10 ,question being how does that stack up against the K10?

Paul


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

stevogums said:


> Very interesting to hear your thoughts on the conical grinder .
> 
> I'm really close to going down the conical route and I'm after an e10 ,question being how does that stack up against the K10?
> 
> Paul


Get yourself to Foundry and try one out Steve


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

I doubt there will be a discernible difference in the cup (guesswork on my part) but there may be a user experience difference. I understand that the E10 has all but totally eliminated retention whereas the K10 fresh retained a lot anecdotally


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Get yourself to Foundry and try one out Steve


Already in the pipeline m8,contacted Callum and he's gave me a really nice invite .

Just gotta sort dates v busy atm with daughters bday imminent and centre parcs on the horizon.

But I sim looking forward to a few hours at Foundry and meeting Callum,and seeing the e8 and e10 I action with the L1.

Paul


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

CamV6 said:


> I don't know TBH. My comment about RPM wasn't intended with any comparison of the two conic machines in mind so I cant comment on that.
> 
> What I will say is that my comment on RPM is based on what I can see and hear. Its abundantly obvious to my assessment that the motor is turning less fast than the Major's did


Isn't the K10 about 350rpm?

The Nino is 500rpm.

It is very loud though.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

I don't know tbh. I was probably too busy being wowed by the beautiful looks of the Nino to notice!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The E10 takes all the faff out of preparing the shot. Mine s barely run in but I am starting to find now that the mound is as accurate and fluffy as the talented Mythos used to be. Steer clear of a K10 unless it is dosered.

I had a K10 Pro Barista which I liked, but ultimately it was not a keeper because I like the simplicity of an on demand and am not prepared to fanny around with doser and thwacking etc etc.

Dave and I have a simple rule of thumb. If you have a lever, you need a conical. If you have a pump, a flat burr will do. Now, I am not saying a pump machine should not be used with a conical, but I am sating a conical works better with a lever.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hmm where does a hybrid grinder fit into this ........


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

David would it be an accurate assessment that what your are saying is that you get the best out of a conic with a lever machine but you'd still see great results using a conic paired with a pump machine?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

CamV6 said:


> David would it be an accurate assessment that what your are saying is that you get the best out of a conic with a lever machine but you'd still see great results using a conic paired with a pump machine?


I think that sums it up eloquently!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Don't want to throw a spanner in this conical love fest but doesn't degree of roast play a part?


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Yes of course. A conic won't turn bad beans into good or water into wine but that's not the point being made by this thread. However the beans are roasted if you put them through a flat burr and then through a conic you'll get differing results in the cup and I am saying i'm loving the results the conic gives which in my opinion (for indeed that's all it is) are more to my liking to the point of being a revelation with the conic. Ones out way on top for my tastes based on my efforts with lighter medium and darker roasts with my major and then with my k10. I'm not demanding I'm right or writing off flat burr grinders I'm just posting up my experience


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

I'm currently comparing a Eureka E65 and a Pharos. With the same beans the Pharos has it hands down! Lovely fluffy grinds with no clumping and better in the cup. The Eureka is clumpy and much harder to adjust. However, the Eureka is a LOT less hassle. There is a real gap in the market for an affordable powered conical with little or no retention.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Isn't the Pharos a bit of a PITA inherently? The HG1 I had a go on at the grind off was a doddle really. If I could get one motorised with a high power low RPM I'd definitely go for one


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

CamV6 said:


> The HG1 I had a go on at the grind off was a doddle really. If I could get one motorised with a high power low RPM I'd definitely go for one


Future project for Kickstarter?


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

There's a chap on the Londinium forum who has done it


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

CamV6 said:


> There's a chap on the Londinium forum who has done it


And a thread on HB about it


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Really? Any chance of a link for lazy folk like me please?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

http://www.home-barista.com/grinders/motorizing-hg-one-t26650.html


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

I feel I may know the direction I am heading in for my next grinder now.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Why the hell would any numpty want to motorise an HG One? It is a hand grinder....


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Precisely.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Everest, K2.

...and because they want to see if their idea is as good as HG two if it happens

besides..... Numpties rule!!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Why the hell would any numpty want to motorise an HG One? It is a hand grinder....


I believe stephen Sweeney did it because he was finding it difficult to hand grind ( shoulder trouble ) . wanted to keep a good single dosing big burr grinder , so went for it...

Frans motorised his, coz he likes to tinker....


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

HG one is and does look great (for the able bodied).


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Why the hell would any numpty want to motorise an HG One? It is a hand grinder....


Why does it being a hand grinder make motorising it the actions of a numpty? Considering there is no other alternative to its feature set bar the VL, and if you want to add in Franks mods the price is significantly higher.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Why the hell would any numpty want to motorise an HG One? It is a hand grinder....


Because (to bastardise a well known phrase) once you've had a conic, there's no going back!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Er, beg to differ.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Once you go 98 mm flat there's no going back


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Glad to hear you're pleased with the K10 Cam. You sound like you're a definite convert to the land of the conical....The Free Republic of Compakistan


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Praises praises may the grinder Gods take pity on you flat burred infidel !


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

CamV6 said:


> Praises praises may the grinder Gods take pity on you flat burred infidel !


I'll get 72 Matt Pergers in heaven


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Let the blade grinder revolution begin ...,,,,


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Its a burr fatwa!

Come on brothers we can all live in peace or at least gang up together on those who blacken the sacred bean in Coastbucks


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Its a burr fatwa!
> 
> Come on brothers we can all live in peace or at least gang up together on those who blacken the sacred bean in Coastbucks


Costa use flat burr i think


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

The world is flat.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Costa use flat burr i think


Flat or conical it matters not the burrs they use. Its the desecration of the holy bean along with StarNero with their over roasting and 15 second shot.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Not even the mighty conic could rescue their efforts

Loved the "72 Matt Pergers in heaven" - I genuinely did laugh so suddenly that a little bit of wee came out (maybe also a bit of an old age thing)


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Er, beg to differ.


A proper one not a hand grinder


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> The world is flat.


The world is fat


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Or fart, possibly.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> The world is fat


The world is phat


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

CamV6 said:


> Not even the mighty conic could rescue their efforts
> 
> Loved the "72 Matt Pergers in heaven" - I genuinely did laugh so suddenly that a little bit of wee came out (maybe also a bit of an old age thing)


Too much info!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

CamV6 said:


> I genuinely did laugh so suddenly that a little bit of wee came out (maybe also a bit of an old age thing)


Sounds like a problem with yer conicals!


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## andshill7 (Jan 6, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Get yourself to Foundry and try one out Steve


I can vouch for this. I just recently bought an E10 from Lee at the Foundry and I just can't get enough of it. I'm drinking more than ever as the coffee quality / sweetness / viscosity / complexity is just soooooo good! I couldn't get over what a difference it could make. It's changed everything. I now drink espressos a lot more since there is no bitterness - just smooth, rich, sweet and fruity coffee.. yum


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

No bitterness!, are you sure your drinking coffee? or are you not noticing it, just because it's not overwhelming bitter.

No wonder people find conicals better if they drink medium to dark roasted coffee, put a very light roasted coffee through a conical grinder and you might be in for a surprise, and not necessarily a pleasent one

I defiantly prefer slightly darker roast compared to what I used to ever since I replaced my k30 for a k10,


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

malling said:


> No bitterness!, are you sure your drinking coffee? or are you not noticing it, just because it's not overwhelming bitter.
> 
> ,


what coffee are you drinking that's bitter? cant remember the last bitter shot I drank


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> what coffee are you drinking that's bitter? cant remember the last bitter shot I drank


Bitterness is omnipresent part of coffee, when we are talking about no bitterness, it's because the coffee has been brewed around it's optimum yield and TDS, but bitterness is still a part of brewed coffee, that in it's right level add aspects to the brew, without it the coffee would be allot less nuanced and balanced.

try serve a shot with no perceived bitternes to a super taste that is not used to drinking straight espresso shots, that person would certainly perceived the shot as bitter.

just because your perceiving the shot as none bitter, dos not mean there isn't chemical compounds presents that adds bitterness to the brew.

my shot are rarely perceived bitter, it only happens if one of my setting is off, usually I taste the sink shots, so I'll have a better idea what to adjust, and that is about the only times I get a perceived bitter shot.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Malling you must be some sort of super taster then, glad to have someone with your amazing pallet on board


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

Coffeechap I doubt many hefty coffee drinkers are supertasters, I have heard about a very few who has been tested and proved as such, I have never taking such test, so I can't really tell if I'm a super taster or not, But I do seem to notice bitterness in food and drinks more then the average person I have met, but that dos not mean I have an amazing pallet, so stop you sarcasm.

again there is a difference between perceiving bitterness and no bitterness present.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

That all tastes a bit bitter to me, lighten up man


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## mexier (Aug 21, 2014)

CamV6 said:


> I doubt there will be a discernible difference in the cup (guesswork on my part) but there may be a user experience difference. I understand that the E10 has all but totally eliminated retention whereas the K10 fresh retained a lot anecdotally


Can I ask on what basis E10OD is considered diminishing the retention of coffee if compared to K10?

Did Compak shrink the grinding chamber or modify chute exit? On the net there aren't many pictures or user reviews about this particular feature that in truth is very very interesting. If confirmed, it would put E10 on par with the Nino,obviously for home users!

Besides is rpm difference between these 2 grinders so impactful on the shot taste? Is there someone who tested both that can clarify? Many thanks!

OT: great thread!!


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

I just noticed this reply.

I don't know the science of it or pretend to understand why but the slower rpm does seem also to make a noticeable difference in the cup


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

CamV6 said:


> I just noticed this reply.
> 
> I don't know the science of it or pretend to understand why but the slower rpm does seem also to make a noticeable difference in the cup


So you can taste a difference between a k10 pre 2014 and the latest edition of the k10?, but I doubt the reason is a lower RPM, the rpm has only been reduced from 340rpm to 325rpm, the only one of the 10 versiona that has been noticeably reduced is the F version, it's down to 350rpm, so still 10rpm more then the old k10

if there is a difference between the old and new k10, it is the new Parallel locking system making the difference, because of better alignment of the burrs, and not a reduction of 15rpm

but I have tasted enough coffee from conicals, that I would be surprised if any can detect a difference between any of these in a blind test

I have yet to meet any who can taste a difference between a nino and a k10 although there is a difference of 160rpm


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

No I didn't mean it in that detail .i just meant as opposed to considerably higher rpm grinders generally


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

Sounds like a good grinder anyway


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

malling said:


> No wonder people find conicals better if they drink medium to dark roasted coffee, put a very light roasted coffee through a conical grinder and you might be in for a surprise, and not necessarily a pleasent one


Matter of opinion I suppose... We've been running Compak K10s coupled with nothing but Has Bean since we opened in 2012. People say the guys at Has Bean roast light... not sure I'd agree but they are certainly not dark. Anyway, the combination (along with other factors) seems to work ok for us ...


















I do agree that bitterness is part of coffee... it's about balance. But within speciality coffee, I'd say, the bitterness tends to be minimised... or at least can be, and IMHO should be.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

MikeHag said:


> Matter of opinion I suppose... We've been running Compak K10s coupled with nothing but Has Bean since we opened in 2012. People say the guys at Has Bean roast light... not sure I'd agree but they are certainly not dark. Anyway, the combination (along with other factors) seems to work ok for us ...
> 
> View attachment 12447
> 
> ...


+1 I've head loads of great shots from medium light roasts from the k10, it can easily deliver.

I find that flat burrs tend to focus the flavours, where as Conicals give you a dense cup of lots of flavours. Neither right or wrong, neither better suited, all about personal preference.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

MikeHag said:


> Matter of opinion I suppose... We've been running Compak K10s coupled with nothing but Has Bean since we opened in 2012. People say the guys at Has Bean roast light... not sure I'd agree but they are certainly not dark. Anyway, the combination (along with other factors) seems to work ok for us ...
> 
> View attachment 12447
> 
> ...


Neither do I, if someone are believing so, then there is a good chance that they haven't really tasted light roasted coffee. However I do agree that Hasbean is very good, and haven't experienced coffee from hasbean that did not taste good with a conical.

bitternes is defiantly an essential part of coffee, as your writing it about balance, without it, the coffee would be allot less nuanced, but we do try to avoid the unpleasant and excessive bitterness.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

malling said:


> Neither do I, if someone are believing so, then there is a good chance that they haven't really tasted light roasted coffee. However I do agree that Hasbean is very good, and haven't experienced coffee from hasbean that did not taste good with a conical.
> 
> bitternes is defiantly an essential part of coffee, as your writing it about balance, without it, the coffee would be allot less nuanced, but we do try to avoid the unpleasant and excessive bitterness.


Many of the issues wth low max extraction yields on conicals are related to the Robur, not all conicals. Max certainly produced great espresso on the K10 he used to have at Colonna and Smalls.

JP


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

jjprestidge said:


> Max certainly produced great espresso on the K10 he used to have at Colonna and Smalls.
> 
> JP


Any reason why he hasn't got one on his counter now?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Beacause he has the EK in one store and mythi in the ither


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

Who supplies Compak spares in the UK?

(Not that I need any, just wondering)


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