# Another Sage BE query!



## Lawski (May 4, 2020)

Hi folks,

I've read a lot of posts on here (and elsewhere) before deciding to ask these questions as I don't think the posts/topics hit the mark for my query. Any help or advice would be amazing.

So, I bought my Sage BE this year. I'm having extraction and pressure issues - I think...

Useful info about my set up:

1. Ozone roaster fresh whole beans (roast date no earlier than 3 weeks from me using/grinding them).

2. I weigh out my beans each time (I have purchased a decent digital coffee scale) - currently 18.5g of whole beans, then they go in the grind hopper. (Meanwhile, my machine has been on, warming up nicely, for about 20 minutes. I also flush through a single shot to warm everything up even more and heat my cup with around 70 degree hot water).

3. Grind size is currently a 4 on the machine (FYI - I started on 8, being a nice middle ground, but found very quickly that wasn't fine enough... what on earth is size 16 for?!?!?!?!?!)

4. I use the single walled (unpressurised) double basket.

5. I grind the 18.5g of whole beans into a separate cup and fluff them up to get rid of lumps etc (rather than grinding straight into the portafilter basket). I carefully tip into the portafilter basket making sure not to lose any so I have 18.5g of ground coffee in the portafilter basket. I use my fingers in a N/E/S/W motion to distribute the ground coffee evenly and I then tap it gently to even out the grinds before tamping.

6. Don't shoot me, but I still use the tamp that comes with the machine (having dropped a significant (for my income/budget!) amount on the machine, I can't quite bring myself to purchase an expensive tamp just yet!). I tamp (having to tamp quite firmly - reasons explained later). I don't use the razor as find this a bit irrelevant (and lots of posts suggest the same - but please tell me if I should be using it).

7. I connect the portafilter to the group head and place my pre-heated empty cup on the digital scales under the portafilter (tared to zero ready to go).

8. I then run a double shot. I have run the programme setting so I get a yield of 1:2 (18.5g in and 37g espresso out - weighed exactly of course).

Now, here are my issues that I can't seem to fix and would love to know where I am going wrong! To get a yield of 1:2 (37g out) my total extraction time (from pressing the button to getting 37g out) is a shockingly quick 16 seconds. There is around 9 seconds of pre-infusion (in the pre-infusion pressure range). Then there is around 7 seconds more to get the 1:2 yield and the pressure hardly moves.

I have tried going down to a finer grind size - but this just increases pre-infusion, but has no change to overall extraction time (still around 16 seconds) to get the same yield. Pressure remains the same (as in really low - just above pre-infusion levels).

I have tried upping the dose a little to 19/19.5g - but again, has no impact on total extraction time (just gives me a slightly stronger taste) and no impact on pressure.

I have tried upping the timing for the water to pass through the group head (I guess trying to force a longer extraction) - but this only impacts yield - I get a yield of 1:3 (around 50g out) in about 20seconds (that's total time from pressing the button until 50g out) but the pressure is the same, still just above pre-infusion level pressure and just gives me a weaker espresso.

I have to tamp quite firmly (and I'm a big strong lad) or I get fairly little pre-infusion.

Crema is also fairly small (although I get a little).

I have tried different beans (from same roaster and from other roasters) and have the same issue (albeit I I have to change settings a little each time as each bean is different.

I would love to get a process which leads to an extraction time (from pressing the button to stopping) of around 25-30s, with a yield of around 1:2, with decent pressure (around the 12pm/1pm mark on the pressure gauge) in the single walled double basket which produces a lovely honey like flow with decent crema. I just can't seem to get anywhere close to that.

Any guidance here would be amazing...!

Thanks.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Personally I would say your routine looks good and you clearly understand the process.

As you are dosing a sensible amount and using the right basket my immediate thought is grind setting.

Ignore the pressure dial. They are not on the latest incarnation from what I can tell and for good reason.

The way to diagnose an issue like this is to keep all but one variable the same and repeat the process. As I think your dosing, routine etc. is there or thereabouts I would personally say go finer with the grind.

Keep working down until you see change. This may take a good few shots but you WILL see change.

I am sure other people will have some input too and hopefully people that own the specific model will be along but as I say, just change one variable at a time to not muddy the water.


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

How far to the right are you pushing the pf? Try 20g dose if it'll fit.


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## Lawski (May 4, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Personally I would say your routine looks good and you clearly understand the process.
> 
> As you are dosing a sensible amount and using the right basket my immediate thought is grind setting.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the feedback. I'll try this in incremental decreases. If needs be, if read other posts about manually changing the conical burr settings inside the grinder to cater for even finer grind size, so I'll give that a go. Just feels weird having grind settings from 16 (course) to 1 (fine) when anything from 4 upwards seems too coarse....

appreciate your response though. Thanks!


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## Lawski (May 4, 2020)

-Mac said:


> How far to the right are you pushing the pf? Try 20g dose if it'll fit.


 20g dose seems huge and I'd have to tamp the hell out of it to fit! The baskets I have, which came with the machine, are (if I recall) 53mm.

im pushing the pf so it's dead straight pointing straight at me from the machine. That feels tight with a decent amount of resistance. Should I be pushing even more??



-Mac said:


> How far to the right are you pushing the pf? Try 20g dose if it'll fit.


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Is it a dark and not very dense bean? My medium roast dense beans fit 20g easily in the double non-pressurised basket. As long as it feels tight it should be alright - I've always pushed mine to the full lock.


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## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

Have you tried any other beans? That would be my first suggestion.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

One thing i mite not be getting.

Are you weighing your coffee once ground into the pf?

Im finding 18.5 in the pf tamped is working really well

Id say get s proppee tamper, motta ones are about £20 i noticed an immediate improvement when i changed from the sage tamper to a motta.

Other things to note are tamp level so once you have tamped just check levelness with the razor

Id say put your grinder as fine as it will go and see if the machine chokes, id hazard a you may be getting some channeling with poor tamping.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Lawski said:


> 20g dose seems huge and I'd have to tamp the hell out of it to fit! The baskets I have, which came with the machine, are (if I recall) 53mm.
> 
> im pushing the pf so it's dead straight pointing straight at me from the machine. That feels tight with a decent amount of resistance. Should I be pushing even more??


 Don't push it to full lock, point it straight towards you. 
Pushing it to full lock could disturb the puck and this will cause all host of issues.
You need some head space above the puck.

Weight is one variable but so is volume of sorts, I would stick with 18-19 and work on it.

The issue with going lower on the sage *can* be that finer grinding on the sage grinder seems to produce more fines and irregularity in the grind so the machine becomes erratic. 
I think this may be one of the reasons sage try and get you to cram more in the basket, the barista pro recommends 19-22!! in the same basket as yours!


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

Cuprajake said:


> One thing i mite not be getting.
> 
> Are you weighing your coffee once ground into the pf?
> 
> ...


 I've seen a few state they get better results with the Motta tamper than with the Sage tamper. I've always wondered about this, what is the difference with the Motta tamper? It's 'just' a flat surface pushing down isn't it?


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

TomHughes said:


> Don't push it to full lock, point it straight towards you.
> Pushing it to full lock could disturb the puck and this will cause all host of issues.
> You need some head space above the puck.
> 
> ...


 I've never had a problem with full lock (straight towards me has always (from new) felt too loose), have no puck disturbance on the surface, even with 20g, and the shots are great


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

-Mac said:


> I've never had a problem with full lock (straight towards me has always (from new) felt too loose), have no puck disturbance on the surface, even with 20g, and the shots are great


 Maybe just your machine then. But having had a few sages and used about 10 in total all only needed it straight forward. So I wouldn't recommend it


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Motta weighs about tripple the weight, bigger in hand, ooerrrr

Easier to tamp with, so more consistent


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