# Roasters who provide recipes



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Which roasters are three best at providing you with a starting point for a specific brain... Espresso or brewed, best weight and extraction ratio etc.

It is something that is discussed on forums like these, but it would be great to see it from more roasters who have sourced the bean or spent time creating a blend.

Are there some who do this in such detai?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I dont mean tgis rudely but is it really si hard to dial in a coffee for a preference.

a recipe will reflect a person s preference for mouth feel and balance. .


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Like this?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What if there is no pre infusion. ..


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

I think publishing a *starting point* certainly helps

There are always factors that will be different (water composition, temperature, stability, pressure, grind size, age of beans etc) but it is fairly easy to find something in the taste descriptors given the rough parameters and then tweak to your own circumstances


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Agree. .if thst recipe isnt too ones taste then change it....dont say the coffee is bad....


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Spot on Mrboots!

That's an oft overlooked point


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sorry dylan. Roaster wise I cant think of many that do specific recipes for spro for each bean. Rave work to 1:2 it seems like on most...

Some have too many beans to warrant it

What machines would you aim it at , bear unmanned most roasters bulk is in commercial not retail ....


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

I hadn't really thought about this as I've usually emailed the coffee roaster after placing an order and asked what recipe etc they recommend for those particular beans plus resting periods. But this info would certainly be useful to many I'm sure and could save them time answering emails such as mine.

It's not just the ratio (1:2 in Rave's case), the dosage and even temperature could have a significant effect on taste in the cup too.

I'm not quite in the 'experimental boat' just yet. Hence why I often ask others what recipe etc they have found works. I like to get a tasty cup of coffee each and every time rather than possibly waste some whilst adjusting any number of variables by trial and error. Don't like wasting my beans if it can be helped.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I know that Foundry and Square Mile have suggested recipes for some of their beans. There aren't many that do though. I agree with MrBoots, there are so many other variables that come into play that recipes may not translate. I think that if you publish something that doesn't work then people may get disheartened and upset that it doesn't taste good which is even worse than not having a starting point at all.

I think a better way to approach this, as you know your setup best, is for you to create a starting point for all beans and then work it from there. This is what I do.

My starting point is currently the following

20.8g > 50g beverage at 94c

This is optimised for my grinder, machine, water, technique etc.. but I know that this produces a great tasting shot and if it doesn't work then I'll tweak it from there. If I were to try a more standard brew ratio then I probably wouldn't be getting the best out of the beans for my equipment and tastes.

Setup a shot how you like it and use that as your starting point for newer beans, use your grinder/dose to control the flow rate/time to 28-30 seconds and then tweak from there. There are a load of threads on how to tweak brew ratios by taste, if you can learn to utilise your own tastes then the resulting beverage will not only best tastier but also more rewarding.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

What Spence says...

Remember the brew ratio sets the strength, mainly just that. You can underextract at any ratio.

The rest of the recipe should point towards the flavour.

If you are buying roasted whole beans, the onus is really on you to extract them...the roaster can't really guarantee the result without peering over your shoulder & tasting it with you.


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Once (and only when) you've mastered the art of dialling in by taste then you can use the numbers to tweak


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Xpenno

I've seen others mentioning dosing to one half gram before but mind if I ask how you got to precisely 20.8g? Would 21g be a deal breaker?  Curious, am in no way criticising btw.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Glenn- exactly like that









And yea I have a starting point I always aim for, but this doesn't seem like the best way to me. These roasters must spend hours testing beans but there is rarely any of this info on the website. It's rare to even see if they are best for espresso or brewed.

I understand you that is pigeonholing each bean a bit, and part of the pleasure is the experimentation, but a well worded description of what the roaster thought was a good starting point for that bean would be a really valuable thing in my eyes.

Think of it like this, when you first learn to cook you follow a recipe, then when you get better at cooking and mixing flavours you start to cook without a recipe and changing the method yourself is half the fun. But in the case of coffee any recipes or best methods are buried in a forum, hearing a recipe from the roaster would be great.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

It would be a massive amount of work to add recipes for each and every coffee. Plus the info is fairly useless as everyones equipment , water and palate is different.

Making good coffee involves skill, experience and experimenting. People seems to be trying to find shortcuts.


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Valid point Spence, knowing your own kit does make a massive difference. However with some beans I've had good results then tried a completely different dose, time and extraction on a recommendation and have produced some exceptional shots.

A kilo of the same beans give you some range to experiment, but if you only have 250g I feel slightly gutted by throwing a high portion down the sink.

If the roaster knows what works for their bean recipe it would be good to have a reference point. Even if it's just brew temp or extract longer.


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Agree. If you've only got a 250g bag of a particular bean, I wouldn't want to waste part or most of it experimenting. 1kg bag would be a different story.

I'd take any recommendations from a coffee roaster or another member as a starting point. Wouldn't hold either of them responsible in any way should the coffee not turn out to my liking.

It seems there's positives and negatives. Guess that might explain why not many coffee roasters print or supply this information with their fresh beans.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> It would be a massive amount of work to add recipes for each and every coffee. Plus the info is fairly useless as everyones equipment , water and palate is different.
> 
> Making good coffee involves skill, experience and experimenting. People seems to be trying to find shortcuts.


What do you propose, a coffee licence? Establishing how to make a cup of coffee, how to make things taste good over different methods & variables takes skill, but then "a basic process" (if not step by step instructions for every evantuality) needs to be in a format that is easily & repeatably conveyed (within reason)...otherwise how could staff be trained without years of apprenticeship?

Water - If you can't make someone's coffee taste good without their water, why would you buy their coffee?


----------



## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Workshop also provide their recipe for cult of done.


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

MWJB said:


> What do you propose, a coffee licence?


If there was one I've failed the test multiple times


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> If there was one I've failed the test multiple times


I think i had one for about a week, got too many points on it , it got taken off me


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MWJB said:


> What do you propose, a coffee licence?


No just some playing, having fun and using common sense


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MWJB said:


> Water - If you can't make someone's coffee taste good without their water, why would you buy their coffee?


You can make anyone's coffee taste good with any water (within reason) , it just takes a tweak to the recipe - sometimes a massive tweak!


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

DoubleShot said:


> Xpenno
> 
> I've seen others mentioning dosing to one half gram before but mind if I ask how you got to precisely 20.8g? Would 21g be a deal breaker?  Curious, am in no way criticising btw.


I usually end up somewhere between 20.5g and 21g so I guess it's just mid point, oh that and Matt Perger seems to use this quite a lot







I weigh to 0.00g accuracy.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

DoubleShot said:


> I'd take any recommendations from a coffee roaster or another member as a starting point. Wouldn't hold either of them responsible in any way should the coffee not turn out to my liking.


You'd be amazed at how many customers do


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

My local roaster doesn't give recipes on their beans but when talking to him he can give what he thinks is the right dosage/time/brew temp. All ok if you have an all singing all dancing machine that has PID, pre-infuse etc.. that you can control to give the exact recipe recommended fro any particular bean but if you have a basic machine with an on/off switch you can only go by dosage/time/output so all you really need is a ratio. Filter/por-over (if you have a thermometer) can be a bit more accurate I guess. But that's just my opinion and not a refection of just having a 'basic' machine. In fact since learning how to make a proper coffee drink from advice/info on here I'm starting to appreciate coffee on a different level. So it's how far you want to take it compared to what level you are on.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> It would be a massive amount of work to add recipes for each and every coffee. Plus the info is fairly useless as everyones equipment , water and palate is different.
> 
> Making good coffee involves skill, experience and experimenting. People seems to be trying to find shortcuts.


I completely disagree.

Most machines are set to pull an espresso at 9 bar, mostly at the same temperature until you get into DB terrirory. By and large the actual process of brewing is very similar, at least when it comes to espresso, I know very little about brewed, but people post up their recipes all the time, it would hurt to have a starting point from the roaster.

In terms of the work, surely that is already done during the cupping of the bean/blend, it just needs to be added to the page the bean is sold on. Plus some roasters are happy to provide advice over email, why not on the product page?

I think it is absolutely fair enough to want to find shortcuts to begin with, the analogy with food is very apt here. Making great food takes time and skill, but being able to follow a recipe when you are learning is a huge help.

I would have thought the roasters were the most natural people to provide such recipes, but an app like 'allrecipes' but for coffee with user submitted reviews and ratings would be just as good, if not better!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> If there was one I've failed the test multiple times


Ha ha, we all have...and will continue to do so, from time to time (keeping those times just our little secret eh?)

But, the thread raises an interesting & tangible issue...roasters sell "potential", not a finished product, like beer/wine. Selling a bag of beans & saying, "give it 10,000 hours of practice in honing your art & senses & you might make 'coffee' if you stick with it" could be seen as a bit of a slap in the face for some, who don't understand that their machine/gear can't actually taste the coffee you make with it.

This isn't having a pop at roasters, some make great contributions to understanding how to brew well & they can't be held responsible for every new method, we as individuals, develop to murder their beans. We, as the facilitators of that potential into a finished beverage, need to take some responsibility for our end of the process & put in a little work to up our strike rates, too.

I can go into the supermarket & buy any number of raw/frozen/potentially toxic food products, a good recipe won't make me Bloomen Hestenthal, but good basic practice, well executed, will keep me out of A&E  We don't have to worry to that same extent for coffee, but that to me, illustrates the value of a good recipe.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Dylan said:


> In terms of the work, surely that is already done during the cupping of the bean/blend, it just needs to be added to the page the bean is sold on. Plus some roasters are happy to provide advice over email, why not on the product page?


The naivety is amusing









Most home machines are not set to pull at 9BAR, many have to be modified to do so. Remember the minority of home-user are buying the higher-end machines & ABSOLUTELY not at the same temperatures. Unless gaggia are giving away SCACE's with their >2015 machines.

Its a massive amount of work for a roastery when you have 100's of coffees, but you're welcome to come and volunteer your time to do it if you like?!

How does cupping define an espresso recipe ? you understand what cupping is for , right?

The standard 'start point' for any espresso we sell is a 1.6 ratio. Unfortunately I don't agree with that ratio on my machine and grinder and know of multiple other home users who would also disagree even with more conventional espresso grinders.

There are quite simply too many variables.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Ha ha, we all have...and will continue to do so, from time to time (keeping those times just our little secret eh?)
> 
> .


Its a secret between you me and the spreadsheet....


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> No just some playing, having fun and using common sense


Fair advice, once you have a degree of grasp on what you're trying to achieve...but it's hard to have fun when most of a bag of coffee has gone down the sink & these suggestions assume you start with common sense/a developed palate/a tangible objective. I'm playing devil's advocate to a degree, if you're going to take on the role of barista, you should expect a learning curve.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MWJB said:


> Fair advice, once you have a degree of grasp on what you're trying to achieve...but it's hard to have fun when most of a bag of coffee has gone down the sink & these suggestions assume you start with common sense/a developed palate/a tangible objective. I'm playing devil's advocate to a degree, if you're going to take on the role of barista, you should expect a learning curve.


If people are throwing an entire bag down the sink they perhaps should invest in some training , lol.

18.5grams - > 30grams - > 30 seconds.

EDIT - sorry i forgot the temperature - 93.5C

There you go, the final rule of espresso for every coffee on the planet.

Is that enough to prevent people setting themselves on fire? hehe


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I prefer 17.6 grams


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> I prefer 17.6 grams


I use base 8 maths only ...

what does this translate to ....


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> I prefer 17.6 grams


I dose to 2 matching decimal places e.g 17.17g or 18.18g etc. otherwise it's just weird and doesn't work.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I sometimes have to split beans into fragments to get my target weight


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

As often is the case...a simple/innocent question throws up not only some interesting points and answers but some good humour and silliness too!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I dose to 2 matching decimal places e.g 17.17g or 18.18g etc. otherwise it's just weird and doesn't work.


Crap , i knew there was a reason my coffee was bad....


----------



## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> I sometimes have to split beans into fragments to get my target weight


Do you have a special tool for that?


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> The naivety is amusing


Thanks...



> Most home machines are not set to pull at 9BAR, many have to be modified to do so. Remember the minority of home-user are buying the higher-end machines & ABSOLUTELY not at the same temperatures. Unless gaggia are giving away SCACE's with their >2015 machines.


Whist I never said home machines if you really need the statement clarifying I was insinuating the machines used by the linkes of us here on the forum, call it 'prosumer' or 'high end home' machines, I would have thought it obvious I meant that considering the subsequent comment about temp and pressure... you have seen me post here long enough to know that I know a delonghi will have neither the correct pressure nor temp, but then users of these will overwhelmingly use supermarket or preground.



> Its a massive amount of work for a roastery when you have 100's of coffees, but you're welcome to come and volunteer your time to do it if you like?!


I really dont understand your tone, your telling me that during the sourcing of a new bean or making a new blend all the time that is spent tasting this and seeing how it is best enjoyed by the roaster cannot be noted, or it would not translate whatsoever to a starting recipe? It seems like a massive waste of potential knowledge that could be passed on. Ultimately if it was useful to the consumer then it would be 'worth' the time.



> How does cupping define an espresso recipe ? you understand what cupping is for , right?


What I was insinuating was that whilst 'cupping' of a bean takes place notes could be taken. Or an I using this term completely incorrectly?


----------



## Kman10 (Sep 3, 2014)

I stick to a rough brew ratio, adjusting the grind and dose to taste, works great on my classic


----------



## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Exactly Kman, I think a rough guide/start point from any roaster if they have the time is welcome but even when they do I end up still doing a 18/36 shot tasting it and going from there. Some I never even bother changing it as it tastes nice or nice enough and can't be arsed to fiddle. Other times even at that first taste being nice I end up fiddling just out of curiosity and it's play time.

It's dependant on mood, time etc unless it's plain awful then I have to as i hate throwing even one shot down the plug hole.

On the subject of the thread though it's a welcome touch if they do but not a necessity in my opinion.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dylan said:


> What I was insinuating was that whilst 'cupping' of a bean takes place notes could be taken. Or an I using this term completely incorrectly?


Cupping notes are often provided, but an explicit cupping recipe usually isn't...which could be helpful?


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Dylan said:


> What I was insinuating was that whilst 'cupping' of a bean takes place notes could be taken. Or an I using this term completely incorrectly?


Cupping tells you exactly nothing about espresso brew ratio I'm afraid.

With problem with having a set brew ratio for any bean is that almost everyone's personal preference is different. I know other forum members who prefer vastly different shots to me. Neither of us are right or wrong, just different tastes, you simply can't cater for this. We already have guide brew ratios they we have been using for years to get started, if we use these then we should be in a good place. Use these along with tasting notes and personal preference to tweak from there.

With regards to temperature and pressure, there is good difference between the temperature stability of commercial machines and home machines apart from maybe something like a GS/3 which is essentially a commercial machine anyway. Anything else will require flushing and general messing to get a stable temperature (a couple of points of a degree) out of it throughout a shot.

Espresso is the hardest brewing method in my eyes, it takes practice and attention to detail, follow the basic rules with decent kit and you will be rewarded by good results in the cup.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Dylan said:


> if you really need the statement clarifying I was insinuating the machines used by the linkes of us here on the forum, call it 'prosumer' or 'high end home' machines,


This is the absolute minority of home-user/buyers of beans though?


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

A lot of the tasting notes that roasters add to their beans were tasted at a certain brew ratio, fair enough if some of you want to discover that ratio and other flavours along the way, but it seems obvious that many people would love to know how the roaster got those flavour notes themselves, and use that as a starting point.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> This is the absolute minority of home-user/buyers of beans though?


Buyers of beans from the speciality roasters? This surprises me if this is the case, in my personal experience users of these machines invariably use supermarket preground.

Are you saying the market made up of people like those here is so small that it is a waste of time to offer advice to us on website fronts?


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Dylan said:


> A lot of the tasting notes that roasters add to their beans were tasted at a certain brew ratio, fair enough if some of you want to discover that ratio and other flavours along the way, but it seems obvious that many people would love to know how the roaster got those flavour notes themselves, and use that as a starting point.


The tasting notes are defined during cupping. The ratio is 12g coffee / 210ml water


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

The tasting notes are usually from cupping, although some do say 'it tastes like x in milk'


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Dylan said:


> What I was insinuating was that whilst 'cupping' of a bean takes place notes could be taken. Or an I using this term completely incorrectly?


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Dylan said:


> Buyers of beans from the speciality roasters? This surprises me if this is the case, in my personal experience users of these machines invariably use supermarket preground.
> 
> Are you saying the market made up of people like those here is so small that it is a waste of time to offer advice to us on website fronts?


60% of the volume are shops , who have professional baristas, very rarely do they ask for brewing recipes, perhaps a start-up might.

40% are retail customers. I would say 75% are making filter coffee..... of the espresso queries which come through - perhaps 1 in 25-30 has a ''prosumer'' espresso machine.

Advise is offered all the time , perhaps you've not been reading the right threads?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> Cupping tells you exactly nothing about espresso brew ratio I'm afraid.
> 
> With problem with having a set brew ratio for any bean is that almost everyone's personal preference is different. I know other forum members who prefer vastly different shots to me. Neither of us are right or wrong, just different tastes, you simply can't cater for this. We already have guide brew ratios they we have been using for years to get started, if we use these then we should be in a good place.


Brew ratio is less relevant to taste, than it is to strength. We may have personal preferences regarding strength (brew ratio) and what is weak/strong, but basic flavours will come out whether we are 1.2%TDS or 12%TDS...intensity changes & things we don't like might be amplified, but we're talking more about facets of the same coffee, rather than a coffee tasting like a totally different coffee at different strengths.

I think that focusing on brew ratio, at the expense of the recipe as a whole, Is taking us off course.

With recipes, we forget to include basic info that we take for granted, but people following those recipes can't see what is implied, just what is stated.


----------



## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

Looks like we all have differing expectations, preferences, tastes, machines, preferred dose, extraction and time....how could any roaster hope to meet all of these with a short description? I normally dose 18g and rarely extract more than 28g over 25 to 30 secs. That's the way, ah ha ah ha, I like it!

Only exceptions are when I think that it's not quite right or, with a recent Sumatra, so dark and full on that even dosed at 15, it still coated your tongue for weeks.

Specialist roasters probably assume that if we as punters are buying whole beans at premium prices, we might know enough about it to work it out for ourselves, however that it we might like it?

Even as one of the lower life forms on the forum, I've never chucked away more than a few shots to get to something at least drinkable, though it might take a few more attempts to get something reall tasty, allowing for the fact that many beans often improve as you work down the kilo bag.

Just my thoughts. ?..see, we're all too different for even a guide. Like those cooking instructions on Aberdeen Angus burgers that come prepacked in the supermarkets that cost plenty telling you to cook them for at least 8 minutes a side and not serve until thoroughly cooked through. .... i.e. buggered!


----------



## GuyS. (Apr 12, 2015)

Hi All, I'll add in my 2p worth as I am a coffee roaster and I supply brew recipes as part of the origin notes I send out with my coffee. Our notes are designed very much as a base starting point from which to work on. The main reason I do it though is to get try and subtly get the point across to customers that by weighing out their coffee and water they can dramatically increase the enjoyment from their drink.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

> of the espresso queries which come through - perhaps 1 in 25-30 has a ''prosumer'' espresso machine.
> 
> Advise is offered all the time , perhaps you've not been reading the right threads?


Could this not be attributed to people without a 'prosumer' machine simply needing more advice? Rather than directly related to the percentage of actual owners.

And yes, I know, my point was that the info is buried in forums and not easily accessIble to anyone who may not know where to look.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Brew ratio is less relevant to taste, than it is to strength. We may have personal preferences regarding strength (brew ratio) and what is weak/strong, but basic flavours will come out whether we are 1.2%TDS or 12%TDS...intensity changes & things we don't like might be amplified, but we're talking more about facets of the same coffee, rather than a coffee tasting like a totally different coffee at different strengths.
> 
> I think that focusing on brew ratio, at the expense of the recipe as a whole, Is taking us off course.
> 
> With recipes, we forget to include basic info that we take for granted, but people following those reciped can't see what is implied, just what is stated.


Apologies, I am, very incorrectly, using brew ratio when I meant to say brew recipe.

I do disagree that changing an espresso brew ratio only changes strength and does not affect the flavor notes perceived. I can keep every part of a recipe the same but just change the brew ratio and end up with a completely different flavour profile in the cup.

Anyway, not wanting to derail things further I'll leave you guys to it


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> I do disagree that changing an espresso brew ratio only changes strength and does not affect the flavor notes perceived. I can keep every part of a recipe the same but just change the brew ratio and end up with a completely different flavour profile in the cup.


Thanks Spence, what I would say here though, is that changing brew ratio alone typically changes more than the strength, it changes extraction too, which drives the flavour balance. To just change the strength of a shot you would dilute that shot, which won't change the extraction.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Thanks Spence, what I would say here though, is that changing brew ratio alone typically changes more than the strength, it changes extraction too, which drives the flavour balance. To just change the strength of a shot you would dilute that shot, which won't change the extraction.


I'm not 100% sure, but I think that we are in total agreement about this.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Dylan said:


> Could this not be attributed to people without a 'prosumer' machine simply needing more advice? Rather than directly related to the percentage of actual owners.
> 
> And yes, I know, my point was that the info is buried in forums and not easily accessIble to anyone who may not know where to look.


Could well be.

If so the ones who are asking for recipes are the ones without temperature stability, without 9BAR and without basic espresso knowledge.


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Got in touch with the knowledgeable, friendly and all round nice guy, Richard at Coffee Compass regarding this topic and here is his reply:

We discussed here at length about providing recipes & extraction ratios for our coffees, but the few times we have done so, it has highlighted other issues of variability. Recipes need to be adjusted to compensate for the types of machine used, pressures, grind efficiency, whether they are weighing in, basket sizes, water pressures and sofness, mains or manfill and temperatures. There are also differences between the bags of green beans that we have used and, although we try to keep things constant, our roasts of those beans. We usually find a ratio of 1:1.6 around 28 seconds a good starting point.

Our beans are not roasted to the lowest parameters of lighter roast so, they are easier to dial in.

Along the same lines of what garydyke1 mentioned earlier.


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

garydyke1 said:


> Could well be.
> 
> If so the ones who are asking for recipes are the ones without temperature stability, without 9BAR and without basic espresso knowledge.


*cough cough*

My Brewtus IV has temperature stability, 9 bar pressure and whilst I don't claim to be any type of expert, I 'think' I have a basic knowledge of espresso. Still learning...


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

It would be arrogant for any of us to claim we had nothing left to learn...


----------



## GNL (Apr 6, 2013)

as noted further up this chain, square mile provide a suggested recipe for their red brick espresso blend. whilst i totally agree that whether a person likes the taste of any given recipe is entirely personal, i very much suspect that square mile will have been all over their recipe with a vst refractometer and hence it will provide a really solid starting point for any dial-in: as close to an objectively sound starting point as you can get in an art that is ultimately subjective.

i would also note that has bean are very good on responding to queries that you email them; i regularly as them for recipe pointers on specific beans.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Yes, it would be arrogant to think there was nothing left to learn (hopefully the learning never stops & we continue to find ways to improve what we are doing), but also much has been learned, forgot, then re-learned, in cycles over the years.

As individuals we often just get snippets of this amassed knowledge, not always understanding the root, or objective, or seeing the bigger picture.

We often talk about "a recipe", then just quote a brew ratio, as if that is it...job done. Recipes are often more complex that that, a brew ratio relies on implied parameters that are assumed to be in order. I'd be interested to know what people think they should do next when the brew ratio is hit, but results aren't good?

A recommendation like "1.6:1" assumes a good tasting shot at that ratio...not just a hot brown liquid. Likewise 30:500 (or whatever ratio you see) for a manual brew.

A recipe, to work across a range of scenarios, has to be fairly complex for even the simplest brew method...and then it may be broad, or fall to a lower common denominator - meaning it may not align with the intention of a person who is trying to highlight specific attributes, or hit a preference that's off the beaten track.

Even when we have a recipe, would we follow it verbatim? E.g. "I was aiming for [insert target of choice], but then I saw a magpie peck a black cat on the 13th of the month, so I stopped short because of the bad omen...I guess I just don't like these beans..."


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

GNL said:


> as noted further up this chain, square mile provide a suggested recipe for their red brick espresso blend. whilst i totally agree that whether a person likes the taste of any given recipe is entirely personal, i very much suspect that square mile will have been all over their recipe with a vst refractometer and hence it will provide a really solid starting point for any dial-in: as close to an objectively sound starting point as you can get in an art that is ultimately subjective.
> 
> i would also note that has bean are very good on responding to queries that you email them; i regularly as them for recipe pointers on specific beans.


This isn't meant to be rude, please don't take it as so ....

If you are regular having to ask recipes for the beans you buy , have you thought about asking for some training instead ? Or buy a refractometer to go with the gs3 perhaps ...


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

DoubleShot said:


> My Brewtus IV has temperature stability, 9 bar pressure and whilst I don't claim to be any type of expert, I 'think' I have a basic knowledge of espresso. Still learning...


Everyone's still learning, and that's why we have so much to talk about on this forum









I think you would be surprised about how variable the temperature is at the group of a dual boiler e61 machine compared to a commercial LM Linea or such. How have you tested your Brewtus? Is the offset set correctly for your house temperature? What's your flushing routine before you start a shot? How long after you switch the machine on before you know the group is up to temperature?

In my home temperature based experiments I have noted a massive improvement in taste and consistency from simply knowing what temperature I was actually running out of my group both before and during a shot. I presumed that as I have a dual boiler and had set my PID to 94c that the water would be at 94c. Turns our that I could quite easily have been pulling shots starting at 85-90c previously, to add to this my group probably wasn't always up to temp, the simple fact is that I didn't know my machine. Now I do I can adapt to this and tweak as required.

At the end of the day you get only 30 seconds to make the shot what it is and that's a lot to get right in that time.

Not much to do with recipes specifically but is more to say that each machine is different and has it's own quirks even when set-up to 94c and 9bar pressure etc..

I think both Gary's and Coffee Compass' response sums things up very nicely.


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Xpenno

Have an EricS thermometer fitted to the group head. Really should remember to switch it on more often, mind, but that's another story!


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> This isn't meant to be rude, please don't take it as so ....
> 
> If you are regular having to ask recipes for the beans you buy , have you thought about asking for some training instead ? Or buy a refractometer to go with the gs3 perhaps ...


Why should someone who is as experienced as anyone else here not want a method to start from?

All the suggestions seem to imply that we can't be sure a 'recipe' will produce consistent results, and thats fair enough to say, but given that knowledge, which we all possess, why should wanting a starting point with a new bean constitute someone who needs training?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

How many real different starting points are there


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

DoubleShot said:


> Xpenno
> 
> Have an EricS thermometer fitted to the group head. Really should remember to switch it on more often, mind, but that's another story!


Good stuff, how do you find the stability during the start if a shot? Do you flush much? Eric's thermometer was a big Eye-opener for me into how the temp changes at different points if the shot.


----------



## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

I'm new, I'm yeah whatever but even when it does list a recipe I do read it then being stuck in my ways I still go to the first and most common interweb searched ratio I have found 18-36g at 25-35secs and sip on it then go from there. Thing is everyone's palate is different and we can't adjust them.....

It's the reason I'm really looking forward to the Rave LSOL my first proper comparison across everyone's machines but mostly to find those with close or exact same setup do their recipe as close I can and see if I taste the same as them, I have a funny feeling I won't everytime....

Maybe they should do a list a ratios/recipes according to how degraded a person's tastebuds are......

Sorry I'm in one of those moods. Off to make a shot, shutting up lol


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> How many real different starting points are there


I have a basket that holds a nominal dose , say an 18g vst..

My machine comes on at a nominal temperature

I use a brew ratio that I know gives me a preferred mouthfeel / strength and clairty most of time.

I taste , I then adjust a variable ( particle size , temp , output ) based on an accumulation experience of understanding how changing one or or will impact on taste. ( if you dont know this or dont have skills to build a puck see help )

I may also brew the coffee to see if I taste the beans as per descriptors of the roaster

Extract

Taste

Repeat til happy.....

Im really not saying recipes are bad , or that they arent helpful , or that they dont provide a starting point , however arbitrary but i do get concerned that they obscure being able to to do the above and make a cup that the person likes . i.e I tried that recipe and this coffee is bad ....


----------



## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Not to mention the multitude of variables involved; but making spro using a recipe provided would take all the fun away from it for me


----------



## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

So as a rule the basis for this is get involved with your bean and machine/s. Your not gonna get the best from it (according to your palate) unless you do.......

I am liking the last two comments. Get hands on and feel/taste your way.......


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Xpenno

Usually switch the Brewtus on for a minimum of 45-60 mins prior to using it. I do a flush (approximately 5oz) prior to pulling my first shot (all doubles btw!) then usually make 4-6 flat whites, more or less back to back. No more than a few minutes in between each. After pulling each (double) shot and removing the pf from the group head, I do a short flush to aid washing away any grounds from the shower screen before giving it a good wipe clean with a damp j-cloth.

I did print out the user manual for EricS thermometer. All 27 or so pages of it. Haven't read it mind and perhaps this is why I haven't used it much. Apart from switching it on occasionally and seeing the temperature displayed and fluctuate a little, haven't really noted any readings down so things can be monitored and adjusted where needed.

What's your routine with regards to flushing?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

5oz is a big flush


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> I have a basket that holds a nominal dose , say an 18g vst..
> 
> My machine comes on at a nominal temperature
> 
> ...


I agree, and the processes you follow are similar to mine and I suspect many who have learn from places like this or professional training. But if anything I feel a well laid out recipe would do the exact opposite of obscuring the need to experiment with variables.

To the inexperienced newcomer who knows little, seeing varying temperatures, times and weights on a recipe would be a good indicator of the inherent variables, just as reading various temperatures and prep techniques of a food recipe does.


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

I used to do much less but then read a couple of comments suggesting 5 oz. Seemed a waste of my limited bottled water supply but I just went with it. The cleaning flushes are much less. Usually only last a couple of seconds.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sk8-bizarre said:


> "Thing is everyone's palate is different and we can't adjust them.....
> 
> Sorry I'm in one of those moods. Off to make a shot, shutting up lol


We can't adjust each other's perceptions or palates, but we can adjust the coffee. We can't make it taste like whatever we want, but hey, we like coffee...that's why we are here. We must have liked the sound of the description, otherwise we wouldn't have bought the coffee? I think we have to give each other the benefit of the doubt on palates, surely only a fool would buy a coffee because he disliked the tasting notes? I have only ever tasted stuff through my own palate...I can't know for sure, or predict, how someone else will perceive the same cup that I'm drinking, or if they even care, but hopefully I can tell whether it is well made? How much should I beat myself up trying to second guess whether I have tuned that coffee to a certain individual's taste, when there is no possible way of assessing that?

When you've had your shot, tell us what it was like, please don't shut up...discussing this stuff & what might be reasonable expectation might help us all think & distill our thoughts on how to communicate & interpret recipes better 

If we go down the rabbit hole of 'no 2 people taste the same thing' & 'recipes can't guarantee a result' then maybe we're all wasting our time? ;-) Though, I tend to think not, as we often do pick up the same flavours in coffee, despite being miles apart.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

DoubleShot said:


> Xpenno
> 
> Usually switch the Brewtus on for a minimum of 45-60 mins prior to using it. I do a flush (approximately 5oz) prior to pulling my first shot (all doubles btw!) then usually make 4-6 flat whites, more or less back to back. No more than a few minutes in between each. After pulling each (double) shot and removing the pf from the group head, I do a short flush to aid washing away any grounds from the shower screen before giving it a good wipe clean with a damp j-cloth.
> 
> ...


Eric's shows that the group take 30 minutes to get up to temp. If not used the machine for 30 mins plus I'll flush 50ml through the group and then go and prep my first shot. Before replacing the loaded filter I flush until the temp reads 2c over my PID set brew temp. I then fit the filter and pull the shot right away. In my tests this works really well to keep things stable. I don't have a fixed flush for the pre-shot flush as it depends on which pressure profile I'm running as to how long it take to get up to temp


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dylan said:


> I agree, and the processes you follow are similar to mine and I suspect many who have learn from places like this or professional training. But if anything I feel a well laid out recipe would do the exact opposite of obscuring the need to experiment with variables.
> 
> To the inexperienced newcomer who knows little, seeing varying temperatures, times and weights on a recipe would be a good indicator of the inherent variables, just as reading various temperatures and prep techniques of a food recipe does.


I dont disagree , as long as it not an excuse to understand the variables

" this roaster dent give me a recipe , what do i do .... ? "

Alot of new comers just don't have the equipment to establish a consistent temp from shot to shot , let alone adjust it for individual beans


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

I need me some of that pressure profiling goodness!


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> " this roaster dent give me a recipe , what do i do .... ? "


Questions along those lines will get asked regardless I feel, but to everyone's mutual benefit in the end


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

DoubleShot said:


> I need me some of that pressure profiling goodness!


Wasn't there an actual spreadsheet of pressure profiling 'recipes' started off? (forgive me if I'm imagining this)


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

DoubleShot said:


> I need me some of that pressure profiling goodness!


It's both a blessing and a curse, so many variables


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Yeah, might need me a boffin white coat a refractometer plus a Tonino meter to measure roast colour to go with the new machine, lol! 

As seen here:


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> It's both a blessing and a curse, so many variables


Amen to that ......


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Dylan said:


> Wasn't there an actual spreadsheet of pressure profiling 'recipes' started off? (forgive me if I'm imagining this)


I was referring to a new pressure profiling equipped machine rather than info on recipes!


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

DoubleShot said:


> I was referring to a new pressure profiling equipped machine rather than info on recipes!


Yea I know, it just sparked a related memory


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dylan said:


> Wasn't there an actual spreadsheet of pressure profiling 'recipes' started off? (forgive me if I'm imagining this)


Lol.....i dont even know what ive got programmed on what pre set at moment ...

It makes my spreadsheet OCD hurt


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Roastery - 18 - > 30 - > 30 seconds when pulled well (TDS 11%) = nice

Home user - 18 - > 30 - > 30 seconds when pulled badly/channelling (TDS 6.5%) = horrid

Both follow the recipe , both get the desired 'yield'.

Home user blames recipe , beans , weather......

Recipes are useless


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Home user - 18 - > 30 - > 30 seconds when pulled badly/channelling (TDS 6.5%) = horrid


Pre pre pre pre pre pre pre pre pre pre hump non nom......


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Pre pre pre pre pre pre pre pre pre pre hump non nom......


11% extraction .


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> 11% extraction .


Ah in that case ill subtract one of the "pre" from my original statement


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Think you need to add one 'pre' to make it eleven of them = 11% extraction?!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Roastery - 18 - > 30 - > 30 seconds when pulled well (TDS 11%) = nice
> 
> Home user - 18 - > 30 - > 30 seconds when pulled badly/channelling (TDS 6.5%) = horrid
> 
> ...


But that was my point earlier, if it's horrid, it's not achieving "the recipe"...the recipe assumes a palatable flavour, at least some aspect of bean flavour & reasonable extraction at least ...this, to me, is where the focus on brew ratio muddies the water?

Cupping, French press, drip recipes useless too?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

DoubleShot said:


> Think you need to add one 'pre' to make it eleven of them = 11% extraction?!


You dont understand the "pre" to "nom" to extractions yield equation....


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Roastery - 18 - > 30 - > 30 seconds when pulled well (TDS 11%) = nice
> 
> Home user - 18 - > 30 - > 30 seconds when pulled badly/channelling (TDS 6.5%) = horrid
> 
> ...


Like saying its useless to follow a food recipe because one persons oven is hotter than the other. That if you buy a shop pizza and put it in for the recommended amount of time and it burns that the default reaction is to blame the supermarket?

You give very little credit to anyone to be able to take a recipe as a starting point and work it out from there, perhaps it is from a jaded experience of dealing with moronic idiots incapable of deducing problems. It was not these people I had in mind when I asked the questions about recipes.

As has been said repeatedly from members who very much know and follow the processes for finding the right extraction, a starting point from which to begin your extraction could be considered useful, myself very much included. To them, and to myself a recipe would be useful, you are a wealth of knowledge rightfully respected gary, but you are dismissing something out of hand that many may find useful for reasons you seem not to want to even consider.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

MWJB said:


> But that was my point earlier, if it's horrid, it's not achieving "the recipe"...the recipe assumes a palatable flavour, at least some aspect of bean flavour & reasonable extraction at least ...this, to me, is where the focus on brew ratio muddies the water?
> 
> Cupping, French press, drip recipes useless too?


Just out of interest, what do you think the minimum info that a brew recipe should contain is then?


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Dylan said:


> Like saying its useless to follow a food recipe because one persons oven is hotter than the other. That if you buy a shop pizza and put it in for the recommended amount of time and it burns that the default reaction is to blame the supermarket?
> 
> You give very little credit to anyone to be able to take a recipe as a starting point and work it out from there, perhaps it is from a jaded experience of dealing with moronic idiots incapable of deducing problems. It was not these people I had in mind when I asked the questions about recipes.
> 
> As has been said repeatedly from members who very much know and follow the processes for finding the right extraction, a starting point from which to begin your extraction could be considered useful, myself very much included. To them, and to myself a recipe would be useful, you are a wealth of knowledge rightfully respected gary, but you are dismissing something out of hand that many may find useful for reasons you seem not to want to even consider.


Cooking a pizza is a process that takes around 10-15 minutes, a few degrees here and there or a few seconds there is nothing in the grand scheme of the recipe. In your 28 second espresso extraction a few degrees and few seconds here and there makes a massive difference.


----------



## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

MWJB said:


> We can't adjust each other's perceptions or palates, but we can adjust the coffee.
> 
> When you've had your shot, tell us what it was like, please don't shut up...discussing this stuff & what might be reasonable expectation might help us all think & distill our thoughts on how to communicate & interpret recipes better
> 
> If we go down the rabbit hole of 'no 2 people taste the same thing' & 'recipes can't guarantee a result' then maybe we're all wasting our time?


The shot done an hour ago to clear up after tea with and the thing I was most chuffed with I got it smack on 36g hahaha

View attachment 13369


Has Bean Bolivia

18g > 36g over 29 secs and about as fine as I can go without choking my Classic to death. Reasonably hard tamp nearing that read 'ideal' weight. I do vary my tamp to bean though so I can get finer grind in use going lighter. This beans not to oily though.

Machine ritual turn on and usually let it heat till the EU safety switch goes and turns it off then turn it on again immediately (yep it's one of those 2015 ones). Always run a little water through on that first heat as have noticed if i don't that the water doesn't run through all the holes on the shower showerhead evenly to begin with. A prime every time if you wish.

Tasting smooth touching dark choc with a subtle red fruit acidity, more soft bigger very ripe fruit then sharp raspberry type. Sweeter long lasting choc finish but very smooth cup over all though keeping a surprising depth for the smoothness in mouth a pretty velvety drink throughout.

Even the crema is not overly bitter, I don't trust crema it can look so beautiful (love the ying yang of the light to dark on an espresso) but then taste so very bitter at times hiding the beautiful mouth of the underside dark of the drink. I often don't start to judge the taste of a shot till the second sip or try to sip under the crema first sip with a swirl round the mouth to judge a cup. It's like the song of a harpy and draws you in but you have to ignore the immediate song (look) and keep your wits about you.

Felt little need to change this ratio just the grind till happy a bit with this bean as its a very easy going and smooth drink with enough depth to keep it interesting. Nothing in your face about it just very easy and pleasant to drink. A great and lucky surprise as the only rested bag left on the shelf when I bought so I had no choice, happy days.

So there you are that's the recipe and ritual prep I did with my limited new boy skills and basic entry level machinery. Not knocking what I have as I'm just starting, learning limitations of it pretty quickly through mistakes and trying very hard to be as consistent as possible. Obviously I can't do temps etc with what I have but hey next machine maybe, oh or that preinfuse lark. Though I have tried turning it on and off a few times then leaving for a few secs then running pour before to see what effect it had but not on this cup.

There I shared, I'll get my coat (anorak)










Edit: The Crema/cup was still settling, separating or whatever you call it in that shot.....lol I don't know all the correct terms yet...


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MWJB said:


> Cupping, French press, drip recipes useless too?


Folk only care about espresso .


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Dylan said:


> As has been said repeatedly from members who very much know and follow the processes for finding the right extraction, a starting point from which to begin your extraction could be considered useful, myself very much included. To them, and to myself a recipe would be useful, you are a wealth of knowledge rightfully respected gary, but you are dismissing something out of hand that many may find useful for reasons you seem not to want to even consider.


I divulged the absolute start point recipe for all coffees already.

If people respect me then it proves they are moronic idiots


----------



## radish (Nov 20, 2011)

I really can't see the problem in roasters passing on any info they've gathered when profiling a coffee - similar to the comments Gary has given on the IMM thread from time to time; not a prescriptive, just some helpful pointers that may help you get to where you want to be more quickly.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> Just out of interest, what do you think the minimum info that a brew recipe should contain is then?


I think as much information as possible, rather than minimum, not everyone will be able to adjust all the parameters (change what you can, live with what you can't), but the more info there is the better...it's up to the reader/customer to filter out what they already know.

Malfunctions, like Gary's 11%EY channelling example, are hard to take into account unless glaringly obvious, but hitting a certain ratio isn't the goal in itself, hitting a ratio and it tasting good, through grind adjustments is the goal...if it's not possible at that ratio, change the ratio...rather than stick to it rigidly, through thick & thin and not enjoy one cup. Espresso, is tricky as you have said, short brew time, much happens under cover...

For brewed, some way of identifying grind in a tangible sense, actual average size approximation, either by measurement, or effect?

Temps & weights, of course, times broken down if necessary by stages. The anticipated outcome & how we have dealt with things that have gone wrong with processes we have followed in the past. How can we reduce variables in terms of their effect on the cup & recognise the things that can change a little without scuppering our result?

I'm not saying it is an easy thing to do, more that any single aspect should be considered in the bigger scheme, rather than seen as a magic bullet/one stop solution, as brew ratio often seems to be?


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Open bag

Set grinder to middle of espresso range

See how 20g behaves, if it ends up 40-50 out in 20-25 secs then happy days

Drink and enjoy or adjust as necessary. Use a couple of shots to go a bit shorter and a bit longer and see what's best

Some shots might be better than others but you'd need to be doing something pretty off the wall to be getting a whole bag of sink shots


----------



## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

^^ bang on Jeebsy.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jeebsy said:


> See how 20g behaves, if it ends up 40-50 out in 20-25 secs then happy days


You've disobeyed the start-point recipe which applies to all the coffees in the world . Shame on you.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> You've disobeyed the start-point recipe which applies to all the coffees in the world . Shame on you.


Spent all that money on an EK and the bloody thing won't go fine enough to do 1.6 shots, such a waste


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jeebsy said:


> Spent all that money on an EK and the bloody thing won't go fine enough to do 1.6 shots, such a waste


Mine goes more than fine enough for 1.6 but doesn't taste optimal , far from it.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Mine goes more than fine enough for 1.6


Stop rubbing it in

(medium roasts and beyond i could probably get a 1.6, no way with light roasts)


----------



## GNL (Apr 6, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> This isn't meant to be rude, please don't take it as so ....
> 
> If you are regular having to ask recipes for the beans you buy , have you thought about asking for some training instead ? Or buy a refractometer to go with the gs3 perhaps ...


I think you misread my email. I didn't say that I "had to ask for recipes". I often choose to ask for them (particularly from such fantastic roasters as Has Bean) in order to hear different points of view and to inspire me to try different ideas - indeed, that's one of the reasons I read these forums. And I agree that having some barista training is a good idea (I've certainly benefitted from mine; much more so than I have by playing with a refractometer). But I wouldn't agree with you that it's a good idea to take training "instead" of seeking to hear different views on recipes; personally, I'd recommend doing both.


----------



## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Tried 1.6 yesterday, doesn't taste quite right.

I'm 2.5 on most and 3x on a few.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

gman147 said:


> Tried 1.6 yesterday, doesn't taste quite right.
> 
> I'm 2.5 on most and 3x on a few.


2 is the minimum on the EK really. If you're brave 20>80 can be really tasty


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Just stumbled on an email reply I received from Richard at Coffee Compass a fortnight ago where I asked his thoughts on providing customers with recipes. Here it is.

"We discussed here at length about providing recipes & extraction ratios for our coffees, but the few times we have done so, it has highlighted other issues of variability. Recipes need to be adjusted to compensate for the types of machine used, pressures, grind efficiency, whether they are weighing in, basket sizes, water pressures and sofness, mains or manfill and temperatures. There are also differences between the bags of green beans that we have used and, although we try to keep things constant, our roasts of those beans. We usually find a ratio of 1:1.6 around 28 seconds a good starting point .

Our beans are not roasted to the lowest parameters of lighter roast so, they are easier to dial in."


----------

