# Blackcat signature



## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

OK, so reminder I am new and learning.

I am 500g in to my 1kg bag and I just can't get this to give any flavours resembling the description.

2012 gaggia classic. Pid for espresso not steamer.

I am weighing on the portafilter so accurate 18.0g

I purge the tank before, get it back to temp currently set to 93 degree

It just comes out soooo fast I'm nearlly at the smallest I can go which is 4 notches finer on the large change compared to my last bag from blackcat. So I am going massively finer.

Just got 36gs in 24 seconds, and it's really acidic / sour which from my understanding means I need to go towards more coarse?

If I go to 20g it slows down a fair bit so it allows me to go coarser.. and I went too far to bitter so is that a good start.

Up to dose to slow the extraction so I can start coarse aka bitter and work back finer?

What does temperature do? Cold faster or slower extraction? I assume hotter = faster.


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

What grinder are you using?


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## Karka (Dec 20, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> What does temperature do? Cold faster or slower extraction? I assume hotter = faster.


 That's right. I was going to suggest to try brewing at 92c as it should slow down the extraction.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Irisco said:


> What grinder are you using?


 Barratza prezico (apologise of spelt wrong)


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Tinkstar

hotter = more bitter (hotter can flow slower flow effect is marginal)

cooler = more sour (cooler can flow faster, flow effect is marginal)

Grinding Coarse = less extraction, less flavour, less everything, likely less sour

Grinding finer = more extraction, more flavour, more everything

grinding too fine = puck fracture fast flow, crap taste, very slow flow extraction problems = crap taste


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Have you been able to get good shots with other beans with the same grinder?

I have not tried the Blackcat signature beans but I would look into the grinder as 36 g in 24 seconds is on the fast-ish side.

Is this blend light roast (that might explain the acidity to an extent)?

Usually for light roasted the requirements to the grinder go up and if that were the case yours might not be up to the task..


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> @Tinkstar
> 
> hotter = more bitter (hotter can flow slower flow effect is marginal)
> 
> ...


 Those words are so simple... I understand each part.

However that's like completing a rubix cube, easy to say than do haha.

When you say puck fracture, how would I Be able to see this? See clearly a crack in the puck / hole? Channeling?


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

I've got a Pavoni so you can feel when the puck fractures and there is very little resistance in the pull, not so sure about the Gaggia. I,m guessing there would be very little output initially and then a sudden rush and pressure would be lost but I'm no expert. When you take the puck out of the basket you can very often see a crack in it and this is the fracture, the coffee goes to the place of least resistance so it just floods through there really quickly despite having a very fine grind. As I've said I'm no expert but this has happened to me a few times.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Irisco said:


> I've got a Pavoni so you can feel when the puck fractures and there is very little resistance in the pull, not so sure about the Gaggia. I,m guessing there would be very little output initially and then a sudden rush and pressure would be lost but I'm no expert. When you take the puck out of the basket you can very often see a crack in it and this is the fracture, the coffee goes to the place of least resistance so it just floods through there really quickly despite having a very fine grind. As I've said I'm no expert but this has happened to me a few times.


 That's not happening. My coffee just flows pretty smooth. Just fast it seems.


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

How old are the beans your using?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Tinkstar said:


> That's not happening. My coffee just flows pretty smooth. Just fast it seems.


 Try a bottomless portafilter, its an excellent diagnostic


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> Try a bottomless portafilter, its an excellent diagnostic


 I have been, its squirting a lot.

Previous bean had non 🤦‍♂️


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Irisco said:


> How old are the beans your using?


 Made 12th Jan. Best used in 3 months.


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> Made 12th Jan. Best used in 3 months.


 So if the beans were roasted on the 12th Jan then they are nearly a month old which is probably not ideal especially if they haven't been stored in an airtight container. This could be contributing to your problem getting a decent shot. There is an interesting topic posted back in Oct 2016 about changing grind settings as beans age : "Grind changes as beans age" Oct 5th 2016 . Five years old but still relevant and I am sure if you just search the topic there will be loads of info.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Irisco said:


> So if the beans were roasted on the 12th Jan then they are nearly a month old which is probably not ideal especially if they haven't been stored in an airtight container. This could be contributing to your problem getting a decent shot. There is an interesting topic posted back in Oct 2016 about changing grind settings as beans age : "Grind changes as beans age" Oct 5th 2016 . Five years old but still relevant and I am sure if you just search the topic there will be loads of info.


 I literally only just opened the bag though? So only a few days open? Would this still make them a month old?


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

Beans are best rested before use , I always wait about a week but it all depends on the bean and then I try to use them within about two weeks. Sorry I thought they had been opened for quite some time. Hopefully someone more experienced will give you some advice. I have experienced similar problems as well and just as you think you have mastered it you come across something else. The answers usually lie within this forum either with peoples advice or searching the records. Much of it is trial and error.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Because I can't resist weighing in 🤣. Are you distributing your coffee before tamping? The weather has changed significantly since your last bag. (Notice all the posts about static etc lately? I've been electrocuting hubby on a pretty much daily basis!) I'm a cheapskate and use a fork. (But have now splashed my £3.84 on a tool!)

It may also be that your burrs have gone out of alignment or something of that nature.

Can you do a video of your prep and shot so we can see what you're up to?

If it's spraying everywhere there's something not right, and it's hard to know what else has changed beyond the beans! (Were you using a bottomless and PID last bag, for instance?)


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

So this morning.. made a video.. thats hard. I'm not youtuber so no tripod or 2nd party to record me. Been uploading it to YouTube for 3 hrs.. upload speed sucks.

It was 37g in about 31 seconds. Tasted slightly fruity acidic.

I changed the temp to 96 (back to were I use to have it) only change 😅


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

96???


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Here is my video of my morning espresso.

Cringe..

P.s warning, before watching the house is a mess, I am working from home and home schooling a 5yr old and a 2yr old lol. 2 year old makes an appearance.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Cuprajake said:


> 96???


 Yea, it's what I found was the reasonable temperature to start with.. not found much on temp other than recent taste affect.

Want to throw some learning my way or more? Lol


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

That is just the cutest video 🤣 hope you enjoyed your coffee and two types of cabbage. And slice of peach.

(sorry that wasn't much help)


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> That is just the cutest video 🤣 hope you enjoyed your coffee and two types of cabbage. And slice of peach.
> 
> (sorry that wasn't much help)


 I was like Jesus kid, this is hard enough to make a drink and record it 🤦‍♂️

I actually 'thought' I was recording all the way through, but when I went to stop and save it I had paused and never resumed it, I ended up with a full kitchen of fruit and veg, while steaming my milk it looked perfect then he walked my legs trying to give me more and made the biggest bubbles 🤦‍♂️ then when I realised I had not recorded that monstrosity I was happy hahah


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Never mind the coffee, how on earth are you managing to work from home 😂 I couldn't manage to run a hoover over the carpet when I had a kids that age, never mind any actual paid work. Boiling water on a cup of instant was a luxury, and that was only when teletubbies came on. You have my admiration!


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> Never mind the coffee, how on earth are you managing to work from home 😂 I couldn't manage to run a hoover over the carpet when I had a kids that age, never mind any actual paid work. Boiling water on a cup of instant was a luxury, and that was only when teletubbies came on. You have my admiration!


 That's very very kind of you.

I'm just one of those people who roles with it then just shouts 🤷‍♂️

Just watched the video and realised... what I thought I recorded to was me tasting the espresso.. and all I did was grind it and put it in the portafilter 🤦‍♂️


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

@Tinkstar first off I think your thread has been hijacked by your nipper, cute as anything btw and you're a hero for making coffee, home schooling the kids and working from home - all calmly as well! Secondly, as per @Cuprajake comment 96° does sound a bit high, might be worth checking the temp of water coming out of the machine after the pid has settled to see if the offset is wrong, thirdly I'd be careful using the steel stylus for wdt, stick a few cocktail sticks in a cork and use that - I do, it won't scratch the basket surface and less static as per @Missy comment. HTH btw.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Deegee said:


> @Tinkstar first off I think your thread has been hijacked by your nipper, cute as anything btw and you're a hero for making coffee, home schooling the kids and working from home - all calmly as well! Secondly, as per @Cuprajake comment 96° does sound a bit high, might be worth checking the temp of water coming out of the machine after the pid has settled to see if the offset is wrong, thirdly I'd be careful using the steel stylus for wdt, stick a few cocktail sticks in a cork and use that - I do, it won't scratch the basket surface and less static as per @Missy comment. HTH btw.


 Whats a normal temperature? Surprisingly 6 shots in at low temp its been very quick and very sour acidic, back to 96 and bitter and slower 🤷‍♂️ its like my machine and mechanics are backwards lol

He is cute, and so its the 5yr, probably the only reason they are alive 😅


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

My best results are generally around 93°, but I'm also aware that what I see on the pid is the boiler casing temperature, not the water temperature inside the boiler, it takes a short time for that temperature to be conducted to the water and for the pid to stabilise again, it looked like you'd flushed about 200ml from the boiler before you started, so the water will be cold out of the tank and have to come up to temperature. Not sure if that's what your normal workflow is, but might be worth flushing immediately after you start the machine to get fresh water in the boiler and then letting the temperature stabilise, then pull the shot with no flush and see from the taste whether it's too bitter/sour.

Definitely worth testing the water temp if that's possible, if water temp is way off what the pid says it's pretty simple to alter the offset to make it right, personally I'd get the pid and the water temp saying the same thing so it's one more variable nailed down to a definite.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Deegee said:


> My best results are generally around 93°, but I'm also aware that what I see on the pid is the boiler casing temperature, not the water temperature inside the boiler, it takes a short time for that temperature to be conducted to the water and for the pid to stabilise again, it looked like you'd flushed about 200ml from the boiler before you started, so the water will be cold out of the tank and have to come up to temperature. Not sure if that's what your normal workflow is, but might be worth flushing immediately after you start the machine to get fresh water in the boiler and then letting the temperature stabilise, then pull the shot with no flush and see from the taste whether it's too bitter/sour.
> 
> Definitely worth testing the water temp if that's possible, if water temp is way off what the pid says it's pretty simple to alter the offset to make it right, personally I'd get the pid and the water temp saying the same thing so it's one more variable nailed down to a definite.


 So, turn machine on and flush? Or machine on get to temp then flush but let it stabilise for 20 mins?

I am not sure how pids work this came with it, but I assumed it tried to make the machine heat quicker once temp drops. So I flush a good bit out. Then let it go back up.

When brewing it seems to be around 94 on the pid. Not sure how I can test the temp of water post shot, mother inlaw might be handy for that. (Though she failed me on the milk thermometer) lol

Last week I dropped to 93 and it was sour, 96 is bitter

Is this just another tweak to add to the list 😅

I will try and do a full routine video and not stop start stop and assume I restarted lol... also might throw food at the children so I don't get attacked ha!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

You've got room to grind finer so grinder finer. Don't worry about having to go finer than you were for another bean or a bag that was roasted more recently, there's no one espresso setting. You'll need to purge the grinder for a few seconds. And if you're filling the grinds bin for the day your shots will run progressively faster.

Don't worry about the time being 25 seconds, or the ratio being 1:2. You can get past sourness by pulling a longer ratio or grinding finer, both increase extraction. Increasing ratio just has the effect of making the shot less concentrated. If you really want a 1:2 or that's what the bag recommends then just grind finer. The only caveat is if you grind too fine the shot can get worse because of chanelling/pucks fracturing or just lots of silt in the cup.


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## Karka (Dec 20, 2020)

@Tinkstar I think we need another video 😂. Just make it like a James Hoffman one with some slick editing, no one will notice.


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

Turn the machine on then flush, that way there's fresh water you'll use being heated, but then let it stabilise, then pull the shot or test the temp. Best way I've come across for checking out put water temp is a heat probe stuck through the side of a styrofoam cup, it'll give you a good idea of the water temp and whether it matches the pid setting.

@Rob1 is dead on ref grinding for the day, grind per cup if possible, I know using a noisy grinder in a house where kids are sleeping is not to be desired, I found throwing an old towel over my ancient Bodum Bistro kept it below the level where it woke my youngest up, he's doing A levels now and tbh not much short of food or girls wake him up these days...


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Deegee said:


> Turn the machine on then flush, that way there's fresh water you'll use being heated, but then let it stabilise, then pull the shot or test the temp. Best way I've come across for checking out put water temp is a heat probe stuck through the side of a styrofoam cup, it'll give you a good idea of the water temp and whether it matches the pid setting.
> 
> @Rob1 is dead on ref grinding for the day, grind per cup if possible, I know using a noisy grinder in a house where kids are sleeping is not to be desired, I found throwing an old towel over my ancient Bodum Bistro kept it below the level where it woke my youngest up, he's doing A levels now and tbh not much short of food or girls wake him up these days...


 Haha love the fact you think I put the kids first... they sleep through anything, always vacuum when asleep and even done drilling 🤷‍♂️

I would have some grind left, but the bulk is freshly ground each time.

I was dosing 1 cup at a time but saw that its not the right thing so I put a days worth of beans in the top, and grind as I need.

Will see what the mother inlaw has 🤣


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

I'd forgotten that Mrs Gee used to hoover to get minigee off to sleep, a fair while back now though!

Good luck ferreting through the MiL's kit, she's bound to have one somewhere, normally a burger van or butty shop for the styrofoam cup though, cheeky takeaway on the way home I think? 😉


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

I think I have to admit defeat.

Just cleaned the grinder, yep needed doing 🙈

Done 2 espresso 18 in 36 out 19 and 20 seconds. Couldn't drink them, too sour, sharp, my grinder is set to the max on fine.

What I am doing to do is try 20g in (still got a lot of beans left, and to be Frank if that does not work once I add milk and most likely chocolate galaxy I can drink anything 🤣)

Think I will have to stick to darker beans?


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## ken0062 (May 19, 2017)

Hi Tinkstar

Nice to see the video of my old equipment still going.

Something wrong here, I am sure I have never had to go much below 9 on the Baratza for any coffee and BK signature does not need a particularly fine grind, last time i used it i was at 15 on the Niche and I am usually on around 12 to 13 for most medium roast coffees

Just a hunch but could it be you are overfilling the basket and the puck is hitting the dispersion screen when expanding, I found if using the motta tamper the ridge should be just below the top of the basket when tamping, much higher and it is overfilled, maybe try 17g if you are using a 18g VST basket.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

ken0062 said:


> Hi Tinkstar
> 
> Nice to see the video of my old equipment still going.
> 
> ...


 Oooo good to have your input.

So I have changed basket and moved to a bigger basket. However... I am going to try, take your advice and drop down. I shall try a 17g and 16g just because 🤷‍♂️ thank you for giving me a suggestion and assurance something is wrong (me) haha


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## ken0062 (May 19, 2017)

Sorry for some reason I thought you had bought a 18g VST basket, what basket are you using?


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

ken0062 said:


> Sorry for some reason I thought you had bought a 18g VST basket, what basket are you using?


 So this morning I did 16g - 32.4g out and 14 seconds and a tad messy

Yuck lol

Could the grinder burrs not be aligned? Making the fine settings not actually fine? I am going considerable finer than you were. Just thinking now...


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

ken0062 said:


> Sorry for some reason I thought you had bought a 18g VST basket, what basket are you using?


 I bought a 20g one to have plenty of space and to try 20g as I like milk milk drinks so wanted more coffee 🤷‍♂️


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

if it's a 20g one put 20g in it.


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## ken0062 (May 19, 2017)

Tinkstar said:


> So this morning I did 16g - 32.4g out and 14 seconds and a tad messy
> 
> Yuck lol
> 
> Could the grinder burrs not be aligned? Making the fine settings not actually fine? I am going considerable finer than you were. Just thinking now...


 That was a bad suggestion of mine not realizing you where using a 20g basket, looks like you are more likely under dosing for the basket which probably explains why you needed to grind finer so you where probably right to suggest going up to 20g.

I was using a 18g VST basket and single dosing the grinder so the settings i used where probably totally different.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

So I think I found the problem. Checked online to see and check calibration of the burrs and saw you can manually adjust the coarse and fine settings

I took it apart and there are two broken bits 🤷‍♂️ one part from what I can tell from all youtube videos should not spin and it does, and this is my micro adjustment.. which basically looses my ability to micro adjust. 🤦‍♂️






This black ring has broken, and should not spin 🤦‍♂️

The white part that keeps the upper burr secure was also broken. Super glue to the rescue but I can save the micro adjuster I don't think..


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

> 11 hours ago, Tinkstar said:
> 
> So I think I found the problem. Checked online to see and check calibration of the burrs and saw you can manually adjust the coarse and fine settings
> 
> I took it apart and there are two broken bits 🤷‍♂️ one part from what I can tell from all youtube videos should not spin and it does, and this is my micro adjustment.. which basically looses my ability to micro adjust. 🤦‍♂️


 Oh well done for finding that out, at least you won't be wasting any more money throwing good coffee down the sink.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Wow. What a shame. Is it still under warranty?


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Wow. What a shame. Is it still under warranty?


 its second hand and I shall assume not, was on the for sale section until 1am 😅


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@Tinkstar theres a mignon forsale in leeds sih arear is there not?


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## earthflattener (Jul 27, 2015)

Are you thinking about a hand grinder. I have a 1espresso JX-Pro. You can import them for about £150 incl all taxes (and delivery is quick). They are good quality. You grind on demand, so no coffee wastage. Takes about 30-50secs of grinding so is a mini workout and they are small enough to throw at the kids in an emergency!


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

earthflattener said:


> Are you thinking about a hand grinder. I have a 1espresso JX-Pro. You can import them for about £150 incl all taxes (and delivery is quick). They are good quality. You grind on demand, so no coffee wastage. Takes about 30-50secs of grinding so is a mini workout and they are small enough to throw at the kids in an emergency!


 Never looked at hand grinders. Could you guide me to some learning?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

espresso hand grinding is no fun, and when you can buy a mignon for £50 more, i know the route i would and did choose


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## earthflattener (Jul 27, 2015)

Tinkstar said:


> Never looked at hand grinders. Could you guide me to some learning?


 DaveC reviewed JX and JX-Pro (the latter being better for espresso). https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/news/review---1zpresso-jx-and-jx-pro-hand-grinders.html

With a crappy hand grinder, then grinding fine for espresso is a bit of hard work, but it's easy enough with this machine. Quite a few people like it as it's a bit cathartic. I think interest in hand grinding diminishes rapidly with age, though I'm not exactly in the first flush of youth. Arguably, this gives better results than a mignon. But, horses for courses.

I have a Niche as well, but still use the hand grinder for V60 daily.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

i bought the 1zpresso jx pro off that review, for med/dark its fine but for light beans its not easy, i wouldn't call it effortless.

i couldnt compare it to my mignon as i didnt have them both at the same time


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Cuprajake said:


> espresso hand grinding is no fun, and when you can buy a mignon for £50 more, i know the route i would and did choose


 If they are similar price... I know where my money is going too lol I'm trying to enjoy coffee not make it harder. 🤣


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Cuprajake said:


> i bought the 1zpresso jx pro off that review, for med/dark its fine but for light beans its not easy, i wouldn't call it effortless.
> 
> i couldnt compare it to my mignon as i didnt have them both at the same time


 Happy with the mignon? As it is the one I am looking at


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Yeah, i was very happy with the manuale till i bought into the hype went bigger lol,


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Cuprajake said:


> Yeah, i was very happy with the manuale till i bought into the hype went bigger lol,


 At 175 2nd hand, 245 new.. how much more is required to go bigger and never buy again 🙈 I mean I see some at 800 which is crazy!!


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

worlds your lobster haha

the guy at decent thinks 64mm flat burrs are the best, which puts you in relm of the new mignon xl £600 ish tho

others swear by the niche £500 ( £1200 on ebay )

for most, its a cost vs diminishing results, i really rated the manule


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## Fraser (Nov 23, 2020)

if it makes you feel better, I struggle with this bean compared to others aswell. It just doesn't seem to find its place. I prefer Blackcats Chocolate Blend, much nicer and easy to dial in.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Fraser said:


> if it makes you feel better, I struggle with this bean compared to others aswell. It just doesn't seem to find its place. I prefer Blackcats Chocolate Blend, much nicer and easy to dial in.


 I actually really appreciate this. 🙏


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Cr*p news about your grinder, Tinkstar. 😞 Hope you can find a good replacement soon!


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

@Tinkstar depending where in Leeds you are we might be able to do a quick car park nosy at my aergrind if that helps you think about decent hand grinders (I'm in Harrogate) if you're on a tight budget don't discount something like a used super jolly they're pretty indestructible and pop up all over the show (used cafe grinder is a popular description)


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