# Help needed - Coffee far too bitter.



## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

I have a Gaggia Classic, with OVP modded to ~10bar

I grind the coffee beans using a Iberital grinder, fill a double basket up to the top, level off and tamp. The pour is always 25-30 seconds.

The machine, portafilter and cup is amply warmed.

The coffee is fresh, having received it freshly roasted within the week. I have tried minor adjustments to both the grind and tamp pressure, but still can't get rid of the bitterness. It's just about drinkable in a latte, but even then the bitterness comes through on the back of my pallet.

Could anyone offer any advise please?

TIA,

Carl


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Do you have scales?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Weigh your input weigh your output

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1000g-x-0-1g-LCD-Mini-Digital-Jewelry-Pocket-GRAM-Scale-UK-/150989286512


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I would read the last three articles on this linked here, in order of publication ( i need to sort a thread out for theses )

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/content.php

Weighing Espresso (Brew Ratios)

How to weigh espresso with scales, creating a brew recipe

Espresso and Finding A Balanced Cup - Brew Ratios

They will give you some suggestions into how and why to weigh espresso and create a recipe to use for your coffee

This will allow us to understand if the bitterness is coming form using too much coffee , too fine a grind, to high a temp

not enough water through it , or a combination of all of them , or just a poor coffee being used .

Also what is the coffee .. and how old is it ?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

thecatlinux said:


> weigh your input weigh your output
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1000g-x-0-1g-lcd-mini-digital-jewelry-pocket-gram-scale-uk-/150989286512


wyiwyo


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

w??


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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

Agree with all of this but would also add - make sure you clean your machine. Gwylim Davies baristas world champion reckons it is most common cause of bitterness. Google gwylim European coffee and there are a load of easy videos to watch - the latest on cleaning your machine


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

What beans/level of roast are you using, Carl?


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Bitterness is over extraction. Back off the dose first to see if that helps (whilst weighing). Could also be too high a temperature. Are you temperature surfing the classic or just pull and hope?

You could also try pulling shorter shots using a slightly finer grind, which may stop you over extracting.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

As you are filling the basket to the top, how much coffee is this by mass /weight ? How much liquid are you drawing from this amount of coffee?

To be consistent it is more accurate /precise to work both coffee and liquid by mass /weight. Hence jeebsy's question , do you have scales ? (jewellery type £5 I/net )

How many days are you resting the coffee ? What coffee is it ? dark roast ?

You say the M/ch is amply warmed up, how long do you leave it to warm up ?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Bitterness can be extreme under extraction in darker roasts too


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

El carajillo said:


> As you are filling the basket to the top, how much coffee is this by mass /weight ? How much liquid are you drawing from this amount of coffee?
> 
> To be consistent it is more accurate /precise to work both coffee and liquid by mass /weight. Hence jeebsy's question , do you have scales ? (jewellery type £5 I/net )
> 
> ...


ahhh welcome to the joys of coffee


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Bitterness can be extreme under extraction in darker roasts too


How extreme (in %age terms)


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Agree with the others. Look at accurate weight in weight out.

Roast type can make a massive difference too.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I couldn't put a number (maybe c.20-25 seconds extractions?) on it but if contact time isn't long enough for sweetness to balance, the cup will come across as bitter and roasty.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> How extreme (in %age terms)


Get back to your" homework" it has to be marked on Monday morning.


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

There is a significant difference between the causes of "bitterness" and "sourness", however many would use the word "bitterness" to describe both.

Someone else on this forum described "Bitterness" as a burnt taste, whereas "Sourness" was described as a flavour similar to what you get from a paracetamol tablet dissolving in your mouth.

I found these descriptions useful initially in distinguishing the two.

In my limited personal experience, bitterness is often caused by over extraction or by water temperature too high fo that particular type of coffee.

Sourness is often caused by under extraction or by water temperature too low for that particular type of coffee.

Lighter roasts are more prone to sourness (in the wrong hands) whereas darker roasts are more prone to bitterness (again, in the wrong hands).


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

El carajillo said:


> Get back to your" homework" it has to be marked on Monday morning.


355 done, 435 to go


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

I'm using Has Bean Jailbreak Espresso Blend Mk1 2015, which I received Thursday this week. I haven't been weighing it, just filling basket to top and levelling off. My cup holds 60g of liquid.


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

Think you answered your own query there...not weighing and 60g of liquid...I know weighing etc seems like a lot of hassle but it soon becomes part of your routine.


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

mobile said:


> I'm using Has Bean Jailbreak Espresso Blend Mk1 2015, which I received Thursday this week. I haven't been weighing it, just filling basket to top and levelling off. My cup holds 60g of liquid.


And based on my description above are you sure your are getting bitterness, or it could be sourness?

The solution for one is the opposite of the solution for the other.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

To nail the problem, you need to be weighing your dose and weighing output. Start with a ratio of 1:2. For example, dose weight 18grms - 36grms out in 25-30secs. From there you can tweak things to see where you taste preference lies - i.e. going for ristretto (1:1.5) or lungo 1:3.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

mobile said:


> I'm using Has Bean Jailbreak Espresso Blend Mk1 2015, which I received Thursday this week. I haven't been weighing it, just filling basket to top and levelling off. My cup holds 60g of liquid.


With the same setup as you using that bean I was going for 18g in and ~50-55g out and got some very nice shots from it.

My (rather pathetic) notes say:

best so far, slightly fizzy, clean taste no sourness, sweet finish to the cup. Nice crema.

(By best so far, this was in relation to the hasbean espresso starter pack).


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

Was getting sourness when pour was too fast. I've adjusted grind and now it is definitely bitterness I'm getting. I have the scales shown in one of the linked posts from this thread, so I will try weighing.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

This may not be a factor but one to watch nonetheless. Make sure if you steam, leave the machine at least 10mins post steaming before you pull another shot to let the boiler cool down. Either that or you can purge the boiler out but then it takes another 5-10mins to get back up to brew temp anyway, so either way, its not easy to pull quick back to back shots with the classic if you are trying to steam in between shots.


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

As you will have guessed, I'm relatively new to this. I have been following YouTube videos that showed filling basket and levelling off. Thank you all very much for the advice. Machine is now switched on, scales to the ready


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If you've got scales there you're laughing, will be drinking great coffee pretty soon.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Filling the basket and levelling off will get you in the ballpark but you still need to know what that equates to for that bean/grind so you can work out the ratio. (What I mean is, weigh your dose, and if you find 18g corresponds to a level basket, which it often does with me, that might be close enough when things are going well). I suspect if you're pulling 60g or 60ml of liquid then you're overextracting so tighten up til you get closer to 36g in 25-30". It's personal preference to a large extent, I've had some lovely shots at 18>45 in 35" but I think 18>60 in 25 will be over and therefore bitter and thin.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Loads of great suggestions , all along the same lines

Suggestion - read the articles

Make some shots

Taste

Report Back ....


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

Seem to have gone the other way now with 18g in 55g. It's now sour but with a bitter aftertaste.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mobile said:


> Seem to have gone the other way now with 18g in 55g. It's now sour but with a bitter aftertaste.


Purely as a starting point , as you gotta start somewhere

Aim for 18 >36 over 25-35

Taste report back

Wil help you adjust one way or another .....


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Tighten up the grind - stick with 18grm dose and get your extraction down to 36grm in 25-30sec time frame and see what this tastes like.


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

18g in 36g, 20" pour - sour


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Pulled too short. Loosen the grind a tad - stick with the 1:2 ratio and lengthen the time to around 30secs.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Jailbreak is very forgiving over a wide range of ratios.

18-19g - > 29-40g / 28-35 sec


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

Run out of beans, palette wrecked and frustrated... will revisit when all three are corrected









Thanks for the advice so far...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mobile said:


> Run out of beans, palette wrecked and frustrated... will revisit when all three are corrected
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where are you based?


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Where are you based?


Aberdeenshire. I can pick up some beans from MacBeans next week.


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

The frustrating thing is that I can put the Gaggia pressurised basket on and pull a decent tasting coffee with the same beans.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mobile said:


> The frustrating thing is that I can put the Gaggia pressurised basket on and pull a decent tasting coffee with the same beans.


Coarser grind is designed for a pressurised basket .

Decent taste is relative to what you are used to ...what i used to consider drinkable isnt what i do now for instance .

My shots are tastier , the coffee i use is better quality and my skills and understanding are greater than previously

Have you had great espresso from a local cafe for instance - are you drinking these shots are espresso or in milk btw...

I can't comment on how it tastes , i never enjoyed the pressurised basket espresso i made for myself ...everyone is different though

A good shot from a genuine basket and great coffee should deliver you bags more in the cup , and real crema and mouthfeel over the fake bubbles of a pressurised basket .

All i can say is that there is plenty of help here and everyone goes through some short term pain with new gear , beans and machines ....you are no different.

I hope we can get you to the place where you will start to taste the results in the cup that we speak off ( no matter what kind of beans we like ... )

Cheers Martin


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

I'm sure I can get a better taste than that I get from the pressurised basket. I can certainly get a better crema using non-pressurised. I find the taste from the pressurised basket to be a little dull but not an attack on the palette, but that from the non-pressurised to be either over bitter or over sour. I will persevere though and am very grateful for the advise I am receiving here.


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## paul whu (Sep 25, 2014)

In my personal experience bitter tasting coffee can mean the machine needs a really thorough clean. It can be any of the other reasons mentioned as well but if the ratios and time issues do add up it would be my guess. Good luck!


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

paul whu said:


> In my personal experience bitter tasting coffee can mean the machine needs a really thorough clean. It can be any of the other reasons mentioned as well but if the ratios and time issues do add up it would be my guess. Good luck!


I think you might be onto something here. I have recently made a couple of mods to the machine. I adjusted the OPV and changed the pump. To calibrate the OPV I had to put a pressure gauge into the portafilter. The adjustment of the OPV lowered the pressure, which meant I had to adjust my grind. I had assumed the adjustment in grind was now causing the issue. TBH my espresso want perfect before this, but it is a lot worse now. I'm now starting to wonder if I have introduced contaminates into the machine through the replacement pump and the temporary portafilter mounted pressure gauge, which would have caused a back flushed. Are there any household products I can use to try to clean the machine?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Cleaning a machine is always a good habit to get into , i would think its unlikely that using a pressure gauge a small amount of times would have caused this , but clean the machine to give it a go , it will rule out one possibility and variable at play ... lets hope its something simple like this.

More often than not whats in the cup that impacts negatively is a result of the barista - using inconsistent amounts of coffee and water ...

There are a ton of threads floating around re my coffee is bitter/sour, more often than not fixed by hitting the correct extraction temp and getting a brew ratio that the person likes the taste of in the cup

Have you got a bench mark of what you are chasing other than the pressurised shots previously ( which your opinion of verges from perfect to could get alot better - not a criticism just an observation ) . So a great shot from a cafe ? How are you drinking the coffee , as shots or in milk ?

Were the enjoyable non pressurised shots , you mention , the same coffee ( jailbreak ? ) as the bitter non pressurised ones for instance ?


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

I am far from classing myself as a good barista, but my espresso has never tasted this bad before and it is since I did the pump change and OPV mods. There is of course a possibility that that is purely coincidental, but try as hard as I can and I cannot get a palatable espresso out of it, they are all absolutely disgusting and this never used to be the case. I drink both espresso shots and in milk at home and the same in cafes.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok cool.

Did you change coffee at the same time or is this a new coffee ?

By all means I am recommend you clean the machine , try the " bought a second hand gaggia sticky " should be some advice in there on what to do


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

I have used this coffee before and it was palatable. I also have some pre ground espresso, which is never the best but usually drinkable, but this is no longer the case. I'm by no means trying to defend my skills and freely admit I am an amateur, but never got it this bad before. Even when I adjust the ratios to 1:2 and get a 25-30 second pour the taste is absolutely disgusting. I know that the perfect ratio needs some experimentation and it a variable, but shouldn't I be getting something that's at least starting to get palatable at this?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I'd suggest reading thro the gaggia threads again. Clean Your machine & make sure your temp surfing too.....


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

Where can I find the 'bought a second hand gaggia' thread?


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## Kman10 (Sep 3, 2014)

Take shower screen an dispersion plate off an give them a soak in cafiza with the portafilter an basket, you'd be surprised how dirty they get


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

mobile said:


> Even when I adjust the ratios to 1:2 and get a 25-30 second pour the taste is absolutely disgusting. I know that the perfect ratio needs some experimentation and it a variable, but shouldn't I be getting something that's at least starting to get palatable at this?


Only if your grind ties up with a 1:2 shot, it's not a magic ratio (none are). Try longer, then shorter & compare...


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

Is Puly Caff safe to use to backflush a Gaggia Classic?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Classic uses aluminium boiler and shower plate. Backflush products can taint the shower plate as well as discolour it. You may want to try backflushing without any cleaner to see how good a job this does.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mobile said:


> Where can I find the 'bought a second hand gaggia' thread?


http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=3858


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## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

If you are using the standard Gaggia double basket I think you would struggle to get 18gms in there without pressing against the shower screen, I think the trick is tamp your coffee as normal then place a 10p piece on top of the coffee then lock in the portafilter then remove the portafilter and see whether there is an imprint of the 10p in the coffee, if there is there is too much coffee in the basket.

I bought a 18gm VST basket for my Gaggia which worked well.

Bitterness or sourness is an interesting subject but there is a third 'taste' that hasn't been mentioned yet , 'brightness' this description is of a certain flavour that is down to the roast profile of the bean, many people like this 'brightness ' as it helps punch flavour through milk as in cappuccino / latte drinks

But as an espresso or Americano drink I don't like the taste at all !

After trying many bean types I have settled on Monsooned Malibar med-dark roast from either Rave or Redber coffee, this coffee has a lovely flavour in all drinks also lasts well and very forgiving.

My Son now uses my old Gaggia Classic with the VST basket and is producing some lovely coffee also with Monsooned Malibar.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Its pretty easy to get 18g into a stock classic double basket, providing your grind is fine enough. I dose 18g into mine and when tamped there's a good 7-8mm headspace.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

NJD1977 said:


> Its pretty easy to get 18g into a stock classic double basket, providing your grind is fine enough. I dose 18g into mine and when tamped there's a good 7-8mm headspace.


It's the headspace between shower screen & puck that's important, hence the suggested coin trick.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

MWJB said:


> It's the headspace between shower screen & puck that's important, hence the suggested coin trick.


Yeah I know, but 18g is more than comfortable in a stock classic double basket. It's nowhere near the shower screen. That was my point.


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## twotone (Jan 13, 2015)

I found that it was really easy to choke the Gaggia PF with a fine grind on the MC2.


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

I suspect that one of the problems I have is trying to get the grind right, especially as the MC2 seems to be infinitely variable. My previous grinder had defined steps, making it easy to dial in the right grind


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Someone posted previously about removing a bit of the casing to expose the worm drive giving you better sight of where the adjustment/improved repeatability. @dylan might know?


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## twotone (Jan 13, 2015)

mobile said:


> I suspect that one of the problems I have is trying to get the grind right, especially as the MC2 seems to be infinitely variable. My previous grinder had defined steps, making it easy to dial in the right grind


I used to just use the scale on the hopper and judge it from there, the hopper turned when you turned the grind wheel, certainly did on my MC2


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

The scale on the hopper turns, but where to start? I think you can get several full turns of the hopper.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

How about getting a fine sieve, about 0.5mm (or a little either side), grind 10g, sieve that 10g for 5 minutes and see what proportion you have left in the sieve? Maybe you get 50% left in the sieve and 0.5mm is your average grind size, go finer, see how your shots taste at 40% or 30% left in the sieve?

Different beans will grind differently at the same setting, so even if you establish a datum, visible setting you'll need to start again when changing beans.

Maybe even a regular kitchen sieve might help to begin with, if you have a significant proportion of the grind that won't pass through a >1mm sieve, you're probably too coarse.


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

OK, think I am getting there. I have now zeroed in my MC2 and then slowly backed it off until I get a reasonable pour. It is faster than 25 seconds, but tasting far less bitter than before. I'm currently using supermarket bought beans, so not the best, so am a little more hopeful for when I get good beans at the weekend. I am tempted to get a bag of beans and a bag of pre-ground from the coffee shop, just to see the difference.

I also have bought some Puly Caff powder and a backflushing basket. There was an amazing amount of brown water come out of the vent pipe and the water I soaked the portafilter holder in turned considerably brown too.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

jeebsy said:


> Someone posted previously about removing a bit of the casing to expose the worm drive giving you better sight of where the adjustment/improved repeatability. @dylan might know?


Yea this is true, once the top cover is off you can mark points for your grind setting. You can also remove one of the screws from the worm drive (the one closest to the adjustment knob) and lever it away from the top burr, allowing you to turn it by hand and make adjustment much, much easier. It can be pushed back without putting the screw back and it is still able to hold the top burr in place.


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## twotone (Jan 13, 2015)

mobile said:


> OK, think I am getting there. I have now zeroed in my MC2 and then slowly backed it off until I get a reasonable pour. It is faster than 25 seconds, but tasting far less bitter than before. I'm currently using supermarket bought beans, so not the best, so am a little more hopeful for when I get good beans at the weekend. I am tempted to get a bag of beans and a bag of pre-ground from the coffee shop, just to see the difference.
> 
> I also have bought some Puly Caff powder and a backflushing basket. There was an amazing amount of brown water come out of the vent pipe and the water I soaked the portafilter holder in turned considerably brown too.


Order a bag of Brighton Lanes espresso blend from Coffeecompass, if you can't get a good coffee from those then something is seriously wrong.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

twotone said:


> Order a bag of Brighton Lanes espresso blend from Coffeecompass, if you can't get a good coffee from those then something is seriously wrong.


As long as your opinion of what constitutes good coffee edges towards darker roasts?


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

There is a lovely little coffee merchants in Aberdeen called MacBeans which I'll be visiting this weekend. I have had some nice coffee from there before, so will see if I can repeat this again with my new setup.

I really appreciate all the help and advise people have been giving me in this thread. It is nice to find a friendly forum, especially as a newbie.


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## twotone (Jan 13, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> As long as your opinion of what constitutes good coffee edges towards darker roasts?


Well maybe but those beans are the easiest beans to get good or decent coffee from that I think I've ever used so the taste is not really relevant in this context.

They just don't taste bitter or sour no matter what you do with them is actually my point.

As an aside I don't find them dark roast at all, I find them realy quite refeshing and mild tasting but they are fantastic with milk.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

mobile said:


> OK, think I am getting there. I have now zeroed in my MC2 and then slowly backed it off until I get a reasonable pour. It is faster than 25 seconds, but tasting far less bitter than before. I'm currently using supermarket bought beans, so not the best, so am a little more hopeful for when I get good beans at the weekend. I am tempted to get a bag of beans and a bag of pre-ground from the coffee shop, just to see the difference.
> 
> I also have bought some Puly Caff powder and a backflushing basket. There was an amazing amount of brown water come out of the vent pipe and the water I soaked the portafilter holder in turned considerably brown too.


There will be a huge difference in taste when you get good beans.

A Puly backflush is a good idea every couple of months. It usually pulls out a load of brown water/oil emulsion that makes you think "no wonder it tasted funny before".


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

twotone said:


> Well maybe but those beans are the easiest beans to get good or decent coffee from that I think I've ever used so the taste is not really relevant in this context.


If there was a bean that tasted fruity whatever you did with it i'd love but you probably wouldn't. Taste is pretty much always relevant with coffee.


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## mobile (Mar 11, 2015)

Cracked it. Cleaned the machine thoroughly with Pully Caff. Perfected the grind using cheap supermarket coffee and then bought some nice Blue Sumatra beans from MacBeans, Aberdeen, which just needed a slight tweak to the grind. Also found that previously I was not evenly distributing the coffee in the filter holder, so how I have a sawn off plastic cup that I use as a kind of extension to the holder, which allows me to stir and distribute the coffee with a blunt needle, then I remove the cup and tamp. I've discovered I like a lungo using 16g of beans, which I guess is probably the wrong ratio but tastes good to me.

I have gained a lot of knowledge and pointers to further explore from this thread and thanks to those I am now enjoying my coffee again.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Excellent - good to hear.


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