# Fully upgradeable coffee machine to make YOUR perfect coffee!



## guercil (Feb 25, 2016)

Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum and to the world of coffee lovers. However, I am a mechanical engineer working for Grenoble Institute of Technology (INP) and am leading a project on the design of a new innovative espresso machine.

An important electronics company (who's name I cannot disclose) is wishing to start producing products that are environmentally friendly, yet attractive to the public.

In specific, my part of the project revolves around the eco-design of a coffee machine which is modular and upgradeable. This will ideally extend the useful lifetime of the product for more than 15 years (target of over 25) reducing the depletion of natural resources associated with modern consumerism. Moreover, this could mean that a user with a limited budget could buy the machine, and with time upgrade it based on his interest and budget. With time the consumer will own a top of the range premium machine, without having to go through the usual throw away and rebuy process!

The first step of the project requires the completion of a 5 min survey. (survey found here -----> surveymonkey.com/r/MWX3VX7 )

I hope you will be able to help, and be thrilled to contribute to the development of this project, which could bring coffee machines in a more environmentally responsible 21th century!









Thanks a lot in advance!

Lorenzo Guercini


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think it is the 21st Century nowadays


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## guercil (Feb 25, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> I think it is the 21st Century nowadays


of course, post updated... any questions on the actual topic?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I don't understand at all.

What does the basic model do that the premium model doesn't? What are the add ons?


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Seeing that my microcimbali is 45 years old and my la pavoni and Elektra are 21 years old, it's safe to say if you make the machine from brass, steel and wood then it will last, make it from plastic and it will fall apart


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

h1udd said:


> Seeing that my microcimbali is 45 years old and my la pavoni and Elektra are 21 years old, it's safe to say if you make the machine from brass, steel and wood then it will last, make it from plastic and it will fall apart


Ye...have to agree with this, most prosumer stuff is still working 20 years later, perhaps requiring a few parts, but they rarely go to landfill. It's also not a "Triggers broom" scenario with prosumer stuff, it's a genuine long life.



> In specific, my part of the project revolves around the eco-design of a coffee machine which is modular and upgradeable. This will ideally extend the useful lifetime of the product for more than 15 years (target of over 25) reducing the depletion of natural resources associated with modern consumerism. Moreover, this could mean that a user with a limited budget could buy the machine, and with time upgrade it based on his interest and budget. With time the consumer will own a top of the range premium machine, without having to go through the usual throw away and rebuy process!


It's hard to visualise how this will work and also, how it doesn't create more landfill than a prosumer machine?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

It's a shame that the old values that many manufacturers used to aspire to, such as "buy our product - it's built to last" were abandoned in favour of "bigger better newer faster more" flavour of the month plastic toot with built in obsolescence.

Sad that the idea of building something that's eco friendly, user upgradeable and worth having serviced or repaired is now the focus of a "special project" when all it really needs is for manufacturers to make something that will last and supplying spares. Ok that might not work with high tech gadgets like iPhone etc but there are plenty of Caravel, La Pavoni etc still going strong. Keep the tech low, material quality high, and try not to use those annoying security fasteners everywhere, make spares available and people will praise your espresso machine for decades to come. *

* Until the meddling EU-rocrats insist on auto-switch-off so your machine never gets warm... oh wait...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

hotmetal said:


> * Until the meddling EU-rocrats insist on auto-switch-off so your machine never gets warm... oh wait...


Remember the vacuum cleaners and how they forced a max power limit on them...so they suck now. It's the same with Espresso machines, i hear they are going to impose a 300W limit....lets vote out.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> Remember the vacuum cleaners and how they forced a max power limit on them...so they suck now.


A vacuum cleaner has to be the only thing that the less it sucks, the more it sucks. ... hold on, let's not go there! Is that true though Dave? I never heard that but then they come up with so many lame decrees that I've given up but it wouldn't surprise me. It was bad enough when they just worried about banana straightness. You'd think with the partial collapse of the euro they'd be busy sorting that out rather than ballsing up our hoovers and coffee kit. Won't be long before all grinders will be 24volt and powered by methane.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

> * Until the meddling EU-rocrats insist on auto-switch-off so your machine never gets warm... oh wait...


Inconvienience for a few to benefit the many...


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Dylan said:


> Inconvienience for a few to benefit the many...


Yeah probably true. It might be a bit eco friendly compared to having a dual boiler machine up to temperature for a few hours. Maybe we should all get Nespresso machines with thermoblocks that don't need warming up. And those capsules are recyclable they tell you.

Then again I don't have a telly the size of a cinema on 'standby' from the day I buy it to the day it goes in landfill cos they just brought out a new one.


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## guercil (Feb 25, 2016)

aaronb said:


> I don't understand at all.
> 
> What does the basic model do that the premium model doesn't? What are the add ons?


Ok so, the idea is that the basic model could be priced at around 250 euros (so an interesting product even for an entry level consumer). If the consumer wants to get a better coffee when his passion grows, he doesn't have to throw away the old machine and spend 500+ on a new one. With just a little extra money he can upgrade the product to have, say, a dual boiler (many ideas of upgrades can be found in the survey).

About the fact that there already exist coffee machines built to last... Yes that is correct, however these are premium machines (prosumer), with a price that is not accessible to everyone. As long as these are the only long lasting machines, there will always be a huge market for machines that are thrown away after 4 years, as this are more accessible to the average consumer.

Upgradeability also makes sure your product stays ahead of technology. For example if a machine like this was built 10 years ago, it could get an upgrade to connect to your phone with an app, and automatically make you coffee when you snooze your alarm. This feature is instead present only on the newest (and expensive) machines.

The eco modes instead aim at consuming less electricity to make a coffee. Finally the machine would be made to be highly recyclable.

The research is based on the engineering methodology of Life Cycle Assessment (LCA). In short, this means that while designing a product ( the coffee machine in this case) engineers pay special attention to the whole life cycle of the product (manufacture, usage, upgradeability, recyclability, disposal) focusing on reducing the carbon footprint.

Hope this helps.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

"..highly recyclable.." to me means it has built in obsolescence, i.e. it will fall apart or break after a given time. I don't give a monkeys to the life cycle of my coffee machine, as this gives the impression that I should be thinking about when it's going to break. Hopefully it won't, and if it does it'll get fixed - not recycled.

Interesting design theory though, 'just add another boiler..' a bit like bolting two Gaggia Classics together, and having one for steam and one for brew. Though, adding another boiler to a HX machine is pointless as it'll still need a cooling flush. Then begs the question, will your single boiler machine not have steam capability? Or will it have a thermoblock that can be later swapped for anther boiler?

I think I'll stick with my La Pavoni thanks. It's a simple design, which has a proven track record and is simple to service. It also pulls great shots and has excellent steam power.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

I like a mystery - but I'm guessing the mystery company is Saeco (French part of Philips) - anyhow I applaud any company who endeavours to produce an appliance that is not destined for landfill after a couple of years, although I would prefer a company brought out a new yet affordable quality espresso machine that was repairable and seen as a long term investment with classic styling. Now if they could produce a good stainless cased duel boiler machine for under £300 it would reshape the market.


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## guercil (Feb 25, 2016)

Rhys said:


> "..highly recyclable.." to me means it has built in obsolescence, i.e. it will fall apart or break after a given time. I don't give a monkeys to the life cycle of my coffee machine, as this gives the impression that I should be thinking about when it's going to break. Hopefully it won't, and if it does it'll get fixed - not recycled.
> 
> Interesting design theory though, 'just add another boiler..' a bit like bolting two Gaggia Classics together, and having one for steam and one for brew. Though, adding another boiler to a HX machine is pointless as it'll still need a cooling flush. Then begs the question, will your single boiler machine not have steam capability? Or will it have a thermoblock that can be later swapped for anther boiler?
> 
> I think I'll stick with my La Pavoni thanks. It's a simple design, which has a proven track record and is simple to service. It also pulls great shots and has excellent steam power.


Highly recyclable means that there are no toxic materials in it, that parts are very easy to disassemble (hence components are shredded singularly), similar materials are grouped, materials that are easy to recycle are used and so on...

Obviously the upgrade would be done so that one of the boilers would be used for brew and one for steam. I'll be able to tell you exactly how in a years time, when the actual machine will be designed. Obviously there is a reason why surveys are done before the design, and one of them is to understand if the idea is worth pursuing at all...

An average coffee user won't invest in a La Pavoni, and thats where the wastes come in. For a coffee lover like you, by all means stick to La Pavoni, it looks great, much better than a techy upgradeable machine. However, what is the price of a La Pavoni, how much skill is required to make a very good shot with it? Also, it cannot store your preferences, or make coffee before you wake up, not that you probably care.

The point is that this product does not compete with something like a La Pavoni, it's just something different.

Something different that is trying to help the planet cope with our mad consumerism. Don't be a hater, we're trying to do something good here!

Also, thanks for the helpful input!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think you will find, that most people with a passion, have a passion to produce top quality coffee. There will be a few people who will couple that with saving the planet, and there will be many people who care not, if it is at the expense of the quality of the coffee. It has been proven, over time, that a 500 Euros coffee machine cannot compete with something more expensive. You also seem to forget, that the coffee machine is akin to an oven. It only makes a coffee from the ingredients you put in. You may have a fantastic quality coffee bean, but if your grinder is not upto it, then you are wasting your time. SO, my suggestion would be to do your market research somewhere where many of the members do not have kit running into hundreds and even thousands of £'s but instead would be impressed with the arguments you are putting forward


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

I'm all for progress and I am looking forward to hearing more about this project.

The phoneblocks project always interested me so this has caught my attention too.

Have taken the survey.

I think good quality components is the most important thing with any product, make these easy to replace and modify and you are on to a winner, known as "the gaggia classic model".

If you can produce a machine which uses this model but can have dual boilers, PID and pressure control and still can compete with other machines on the market then you may be able to make money.


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## jonbutler88 (Dec 31, 2015)

Just my 2c, but I'm afraid I don't think you have a market here. If you're saying that anyone who would own a La Pavoni (or any of the other machines owned by people on this forum and others like it) would be beyond a device like this, they you're basically stuck competing with the pod coffee market, who I imagine have no interest in e.g. a dual boiler nespresso machine. As I am finding out first hand, there is an insane amount of skill in just grinding, dosing and tamping, before you even touch the coffee machine, and for people not wanting to go through that "hassle" (considered part of the art form here I imagine), you'd likely be looking at pods, or a super automatic bean to cup machine like the (expensive) Sage Oracle.

I'm all for environmental friendliness (who wouldn't be?), but I get the impression that high-end coffee gear is generally commercial / prosumer, and as a result is made to take way more of a battering than we could throw at it with our very light use. This likely leads to very long equipment lifetimes (unless treated badly), and more "recycling" in the form of a healthy second-hand market (as evidenced on this forum).


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

But then people who show up at John Lewis (insert any other shop if you want) and want a machine without prior research wouldn't worry about saving the planet if "that red machine looks better, does the same job and is £100 cheaper". They wouldn't want to upgrade to a dual boiler or a rotary pump as they wouldn't understand the difference anyway.

I don't think many members in this forum just bin their machines/grinders after having an upgrade. The coffee gear can last a long time and some machines are serviceable.


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## jtldurnall (Mar 16, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> I think you will find, that most people with a passion, have a passion to produce top quality coffee. There will be a few people who will couple that with saving the planet, and there will be many people who care not, if it is at the expense of the quality of the coffee. It has been proven, over time, that a 500 Euros coffee machine cannot compete with something more expensive. You also seem to forget, that the coffee machine is akin to an oven. It only makes a coffee from the ingredients you put in. You may have a fantastic quality coffee bean, but if your grinder is not upto it, then you are wasting your time. SO, my suggestion would be to do your market research somewhere where many of the members do not have kit running into hundreds and even thousands of £'s but instead would be impressed with the arguments you are putting forward


I agree with what I believe is dfk's sentiment. You're probably asking the wrong people. Many people on this forum are pushing for quality over convenience,and therefore have spent a great deal on equipment and are already in a position where they have a machine which will last them decades, producing great coffee.

From what you have told us about your product you will probably be going after the coffee drinker who wants quality balanced with convenience: aka the nespresso market.

For what it's worth I like your idea. With the right marketing you could hit on the trend for 'real' coffee, distancing yourself from pods which seem wholly artificial and unnatural. Positioned correctly, you could do well. It's certainly an interesting idea that I'll be watching with interest.


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## guercil (Feb 25, 2016)

jtldurnall said:


> I agree with what I believe is dfk's sentiment. You're probably asking the wrong people. Many people on this forum are pushing for quality over convenience,and therefore have spent a great deal on equipment and are already in a position where they have a machine which will last them decades, producing great coffee.
> 
> From what you have told us about your product you will probably be going after the coffee drinker who wants quality balanced with convenience: aka the nespresso market.
> 
> For what it's worth I like your idea. With the right marketing you could hit on the trend for 'real' coffee, distancing yourself from pods which seem wholly artificial and unnatural. Positioned correctly, you could do well. It's certainly an interesting idea that I'll be watching with interest.


I see your point, however I do not believe that the upgradeable coffee machine will not be able to compete with high end machines. I'm just saying it has a different market from the simplistic, yet very elegant La Pavoni, it approaches the tech-y market. In fact I would think it is better to compare it to fully automatic machines...

Thanks for the replies guys, all comments are very useful!

Please remember to take the survey!!! ----> http://www.surveymonkey.com/r/MWX3VX7


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

guercil said:


> Ok so, the idea is that the basic model could be priced at around 250 euros


So like an old Gaggia classic then? That was a good machine that lasted years until Phillips touched (& ruined) it.



guercil said:


> it could get an upgrade to connect to your phone with an app, and automatically make you coffee when you snooze your alarm. This feature is instead present only on the newest (and expensive) machines.


So it's going to weigh out 3-4 lots of beans, grind one, pull a cup, taste it, adjust the grinder, try again, then repeat until ahhhh, 'sweetspot'....I think you need to learn about coffee before you design anything (just my opinion)...

Also, I've never come across this function on top prosumer machines like the speedster, GS3, slayer etc.... what do you mean by "newest & expensive"... do you mean "overpriced crap" (just asking)



guercil said:


> .... a coffee machine which is modular and upgradeable. ........With time the consumer will own a top of the range premium machine, without having to go through the usual throw away and rebuy process!


Do you not realise that this process, if starting at £250, to move through to a 'top prosumer machine' is going to involve throwing EVERYTHING away... unless you're secret company is going to begin a buy back / exchange your parts programme? (just to warn you I'm about to patent this idea. I might patent round corners on coffee machines too... just following in Apples footsteps, don't worry, you can still use sharp pointy corners)



guercil said:


> The eco modes instead aim at consuming less electricity to make a coffee


This would be interesting, if you could get instant (huge) steam power, and instantly hot, regulated temperature water, which when it touched the rest of the 'cold' (ECO) machine, didn't cool.... I think the most eco way would be to use 'cold fission'... just my 2 pence...


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

So modular expansion of systems that require good mechanical as well as electrical connection, pressure vessels & kilowatts of power? Has this been thought through at all?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Ok I don't want to knock this, because my original reply lamented the loss of the old mantra of making things to last vs getting consumers to, er, consume in an unsustainable cycle. That is obviously crying over spilt microfoam and I'm genuinely pleased to see that maybe the tide is turning and there is a desire to look into making things last, making them upgradeable and repairable instead of designed to fail, held together with glue and security Torx and a big sticker saying "No user serviceable parts inside" I genuinely hope this succeeds and helps the first world turn a corner.

I think it faces many challenges however.

1 - your average consumer has been conditioned to want something new with the latest must have features and may not be enticed by spending money improving something they've already got.

2- Of course the members on this site are always modding, upgrading and improving their kit, BUT we're unlikely to be the target market, we look after our gear, it lasts ages and doesn't end up in landfill for a very long time (and is probably good quality steel/brass/copper/alu for the most part.

3 - how 'sustainable' will the new project (or even paradigm) be from the Financial Directors point of view? That guy's huge bonus depends on consumers constantly replacing stuff. There will still be profits but will they be more or less - that unfortunately will be the deciding factor.

4 - is it even technically feasible? Genuine question to which the answer may be "yes" but I'm sure it's not as simple as it sounds. I'm finding it hard to imagine a way of designing something modular that starts life as the equivalent of a new post-Philips 2015 Classic that could have extra modules added to turn it into a Vesuvius - there are practically zero areas of commonality - it would be cheaper to sell/exchange it and start again.

I will take the survey, I do want this to succeed, but I think there are some fairly large basic challenges to overcome both in the mindset of the consumer and for the engineer.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I have zero faith such a thing would ever make it to market. Maybe I'll be wrong, but I doubt it.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Not to wee on your seasonal pyrotechnics, but this sounds like a manufacturer shrugging and saying "yeah, go right ahead" to the engineering class & wondering if they will get a free vox pop & feasibility study, to fill out some manager's portfolio of projects for his next promotion bid & naff all to do with anything that would ever see the light of day... I'm sure it will get you course credit tho, & as a learning exercise worthwhile.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

"I am new to this forum and to the world of coffee lovers. However, I am a mechanical engineer working for Grenoble Institute of Technology (INP) and am leading a project on the design of a new innovative espresso machine."

I think our man is a bit more than an undergraduate - and I assume the company who cannot be named is paying for his team to do a proper study. He's new to coffee and wants to canvas the views of enthusiasts, so fair enough I think, even though I think the company might struggle with the tech and commercial aspects. I assume they have at least put some money into it.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Mmm, possibly a little uncharitable of me, I don't think I'm far from the truth though... Coming on the day this story breaks:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12175832/Fearing-Brexit-Brussels-pulls-plug-on-kettles-ban.html

As has been stated, the upgrade path would necessitate either being such a beast of 2 hearts as to be no good at the basics, or the costs would be

Prohibitive... Not something that could be manufactured to any high standard at that price point.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

the future sounds as though in order to get a descent coffee machine you will need to buy 3 - weld them together in a row - one for warming the cup, one for the shot and one for the steam - or in reality everyone will start buying commercial machines aimed at domestic customers - which a number of members seem to have already done.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

The EU will probably mandate to ban anything that isn't made by Nespresso and uses more than 500 watts. They live to meddle. (I meant to type "love', it got autocorrected and I thought 'ok')


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

hotmetal said:


> The EU will probably mandate to ban anything that isn't made by Nespresso and uses more than 500 watts. They live to meddle. (I meant to type "love', it got autocorrected and I thought 'ok')


When our EU Cylon Silva masters are marching us to the chromium mines I will remember it started with an upgradeable machine...

~


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

guercil said:


> In fact I would think it is better to compare it to fully automatic machines...


Lorenzo,

I think some of the reason you may not be getting the answers you are looking for may possibly be a lack of understanding of the motivations & goals of your audience & guiding principles at work here.

You've stated here & on more than a couple of other forums that this isn't about greenwash, this is a serious attempt to look at sustainability...I don't doubt that you are sincere, I assume you are doing your PhD in a sustainable tech field at the INP? What I do question though, is the motivation of the large company who have commissioned this study. Whilst a green tag on their machine & avoiding being either legislated out of existence, (or fined) will be a motivating factor, the real reason they are interested in this market is sales, the market niche you appear to find aspirational is at present occupied by the Sage range DP, Duo temp etc....these are a small part of the market, above the price point you are considering & whilst they are being targeted by the EU, are not the elephant in the room (nespresso pods)

HOWEVER! a company that could enter the market with a machine priced considerably below the Sages, whilst promising a deferred "pro-upgrade" would interrupt the upgrade path & trigger lord knows how many impulse buys, once the "future-proof" aspect of a buying decision had been short-circuited. It would also stave off any Euro legislation.

I think maybe this thread should have been entitled "Would you like to help Philips Stuff up Sage's Sales in 2019"? I hope it isn't better entitled "Want to help Nestle green-wash & avoid addressing pods?"

I think what people are trying to say is:

1.the machines over 300 euros we buy aren't thrown away, they are fixed & last for decades, the simpler a machine & higher the quality, the more likely it will outlast its owner.

2. Upgrading plastic junk with more junk, still gives you junk. The machines most on here aspire to, are built on a chassis closer to a generator than a nespresso machine or an entry level thermoblock, how can you build that over-engineering into your entry level machine?

3. Temperature stability comes from thermal mass, - 5 kilo lumps of chrome covered brass, attached to large boilers, this obviates a lot of electronics & extends the life-cycle by a factor.

4.the reason people hack second hand machines, is to emulate the performance of machines costing 3000 euros, not 300 & they can do this for less than the price of your proposed entry level machine. @MrShades PID etc...

5. The average Joe thinks we are all geeks & "beard stroking joy thieves" to quote one paper! they are interested in nespresso convenience, not upgrades & their capsules are an Eco-nightmare that needs to be addressed.

On a side note, you work for the largest technical college in France. Can you tell me:

A) Which has the highest impact: circuit board, thermo-block, plastic body - lasting 7 yrs, never recycled & generating a mountain of used pods or 5 kg piece of brass lasting 70 yrs then being re-smelted, generating mulch & a bag for every kilo.

B) When one of the major concerns here should be energy consumption, should we be looking to build solid, long-lasting machines & simply move over to nuclear power as France has?


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## guercil (Feb 25, 2016)

oursus said:


> Lorenzo,
> 
> What I do question though, is the motivation of the large company who have commissioned this study.


Well, we all know that every business's goal is to make more money, in an environmentally friendly way or not, it's all about the money. That's how the world works unfortunately.

This company wants to look good, hoping it will boost sales, and wants to approach this problem by making a decent coffee machine with an ACTUAL lower carbon footprint. I'm interested making a good product with a low carbon footprint, but there are still years of research and designing to come. SO don't worry guys, I'm not trying to sell you anything. Research like this is done so that in 5-10 years time all product designers will try to focus on eco-design, reducing wastes through closed loop manufacturing systems, which are based on upgradeable, easily serviceable and recyclable products.

About the Nespresso pods, this has nothing to do with my research, I'm not working on Pod Machines. Also, Nestle doesn't care about their machines (they don't design them themselves), they just want to make money on the pods. Simplest solution would be to make them illegal... I bet they'll put up a big fight to continue selling them, as that's their main income source in this sector.

Realistically, what is the (lowest) price for a machine that lasts for more than 20 years? (actually interested here). Personally I'm trying to extend the lifetime of those machines that are thrown away after 5 years.

Adding junk to junk gives you junk... yes this is indeed a risk, and matching the prosumer machines quality is a great challenge. However, the concept of modularity is not all rubbish. Say you add in many upgrades, these upgrades will be of high quality materials and all you are left with of the original (cheap) machine would be the platform, which is indeed built to last. The exchanged components would be highly serviceable and would be inserted in new basic level machines (this has been done in the past with other products). Again, all of this is not easy, but worth working on.

If I understand correctly, "hacking" is baisically a DIY upgrade. Why not have a reasonably priced upgrade that can be bought by anyone, instead of restricting the market to engineer-geeks?

About the recyclability question it is not easy to say. The problem is that you assume that the 5 kg of brass is always recycled, whereas many products can go directly to landfill without getting disassembled. One of the things this project is addressing is making the products highly disassembleable, so that that block of brass always gets recycled. There is dedicated software (Simapro) to do this carbon footprint analysis, and it needs a lot of data to give reliable results. I'd personally think a PID controller has a lower impact than the 5 kg block, when considering all the efforts in mining, resource consumption and actual end-of-life scenarios. We'll know a little more down the line of this analysis...

I'm all for nuclear, problem with long lasting machines is that with our growing technology they can soon become obsolete before the end of their lifetime, hence the needed upgradeability. I do however understand that this may not apply as much to coffee machines, as these have more or less stayed the same in the last decades (although the average consumer does want upgrades like app connectivity, of which I bet you lot don't give a damn).

I think it is now clear that you guys aren't the target customer, you want to spend good money on your coffee machine (more than 50% would spend more than 1000 euros) and you know exactly what you want. However, it was still useful to get the opinions of experts on the matter. Actually, very useful, and I thank you for the many replies.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

There are plenty of owners on here with machines older than 20 years. There are not many modern machines, like for example the Sage crop, that will see 5 years as they are dependent on circuit boards and the like. The reason that the 'better' machines last longer, is partly because they are simple in design and partly because like cars, the owners look after them and service them. I doubt you would get much loyalty amongst the target market you seek. Fully understand what you are trying to do......in my view, you are trying to convert the existing pod owner to something a little better.......2 caveats, they still need decent beans and a decent grinder


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

guercil said:


> Well, we all know that every business's goal is to make more money, in an environmentally friendly way or not, it's all about the money. That's how the world works unfortunately.


 Now this is where you and I differ Lorenzo, you sound like someone who has been working too hard to notice the shift in public opinion over the last decade... & if you will permit me, this is where our brightest and best must be careful whose wagon they hitch to... any industry desperately needs motivated, educated, intelligent, enthusiastic & moral individuals, you are quite literally the hope for the future, but you have a greater chance of changing things as a large fish in a small pond than in a large one!



guercil said:


> SO don't worry guys, I'm not trying to sell you anything. Research like this is done so that in 5-10 years time all product designers will try to focus on eco-design, reducing wastes through closed loop manufacturing systems, which are based on upgradeable, easily serviceable and recyclable products.


We realise you aren't selling a product Lorenzo, you wouldn't have recieved an answer at all, the fact that your thread has shown responses, is a measure of respect in itself. You do contradict yourself somewhat here though: the research is done because a major company pays for it, you may have your reasons for working in the field, but ultimately your research will be used for whatever people who buy your paper decide to use if for, initially that will be the large company you quote & you will have no control over how it is applied, unless you own the company!!











guercil said:


> About the Nespresso pods, this has nothing to do with my research, I'm not working on Pod Machines. Also, Nestle doesn't care about their machines (they don't design them themselves), they just want to make money on the pods. Simplest solution would be to make them illegal... I bet they'll put up a big fight to continue selling them, as that's their main income source in this sector.


This is my precise point, coffee pod sales increased by a third from 2013 to 2014, concentrating on the now minority market of entry level thermoblock machines, when more people will buy nespresso at that price point, is almost an irrelevance, since the waste is in the consumable, not the equipment & the machines you are concentrating on don't use that consumable!



guercil said:


> Realistically, what is the (lowest) price for a machine that lasts for more than 20 years? (actually interested here). Personally I'm trying to extend the lifetime of those machines that are thrown away after 5 years.


I would think that price point will be somewhere around the £400 mark, whilst not a favourite (particularly in its latest incarnation) the Rancilio Silvia has a metal chassis & if maintained properly will still be serviceable at 20 years, the Gaggia classic will probably be reaching the end of its lifecycle at that time - I may have missed something, I'm sure others will chime in here if they have more information?



guercil said:


> However, the concept of modularity is not all rubbish. Say you add in many upgrades, these upgrades will be of high quality materials and all you are left with of the original (cheap) machine would be the platform, which is indeed built to last. The exchanged components would be highly serviceable and would be inserted in new basic level machines (this has been done in the past with other products). Again, all of this is not easy, but worth working on.


Forgive me, I absolutely do NOT think that modularity is a rubbish concept, sorry if I gave that impression - the "Fairphone" is one of my favourite products of the last 5 years. My point was that if you are to end with a product that has any lifespan, then the original chassis must be of an "over-engineered" solid nature, how do you intend to build that into an entry level machine at the price-point you propose? I don't personally think it is possible, hence my scepticism for your proposal... (I would REALLY love for you to prove me wrong at this point Lorenzo, if you can do that, your project would have legs & I for one would pledge you on kickstarter pretty much immediately, as I am sure many on here would...)



guercil said:


> If I understand correctly, "hacking" is baisically a DIY upgrade. Why not have a reasonably priced upgrade that can be bought by anyone, instead of restricting the market to engineer-geeks?


All in favour of this - go for your life!



guercil said:


> The problem is that you assume that the 5 kg of brass is always recycled, whereas many products can go directly to landfill without getting disassembled. One of the things this project is addressing is making the products highly disassembleable, so that that block of brass always gets recycled. There is dedicated software (Simapro) to do this carbon footprint analysis, and it needs a lot of data to give reliable results. I'd personally think a PID controller has a lower impact than the 5 kg block, when considering all the efforts in mining, resource consumption and actual end-of-life scenarios. We'll know a little more down the line of this analysis...


This is less your field of expertise than mine Lorenzo, it's not an assumption, I would have expected someone working in your field to be aware that 5kg of brass would make it to landfill in maybe one country in Europe, where it would then be picked back out of the landfill by the swarms of tip-pickers who do that. It certainly wouldn't get that far in the UK...I am not aware of a scenario in which PCBs are recycled, anywhere in the world... - 5kg of brass has dropped through the floor recently, but is still worth £14 scrap - gift me a couple of 2 group machines to scrap every day & I'll quit my job











guercil said:


> I'm all for nuclear, problem with long lasting machines is that with our growing technology they can soon become obsolete before the end of their lifetime, hence the needed upgradeability. I do however understand that this may not apply as much to coffee machines, as these have more or less stayed the same in the last decades (although the average consumer does want upgrades like app connectivity, of which I bet you lot don't give a damn).


Okay... I spent a number of years retailing & wholesaling domestic appliances of all sorts... & also dismantling & re-cycling, I am aware of the disruptive product that the original dyson was in the market, I am aware of how difficult it is to get a TRULY new product to market (a close family member of mine worked later at a european executive level in a large UK based appliance firm, which gave an insight into the market across Europe)

I don't agree, the problem with domestic appliances is that they absolutely do NOT become obsolete - washing machines still wash in the same way (except for some of the water monitoring advances by Bosch/Gorenje in the last 20yrs) toasters still toast in the same way etc, etc... the problem has ALWAYS been getting customers to buy the new ranges, & that intended product life is built into the price point. Entry level washing machines cost a maximum of £100/year with that in mind, you can buy a 2 yr guaranteed machine for £200, a 5 yr guaranteed machine at £500 & a 10 yr guaranteed machine for £1000, same TCO. You can also still buy the gear driven top-loader machines, which cost considerably more & last approximately 25-30 yrs, these are also now termed commercial machines.

By the way, don't be too quick to judge on the app front, I actually just installed the meCoffee PID on my machine, which is app controlled!



guercil said:


> I think it is now clear that you guys aren't the target customer, you want to spend good money on your coffee machine (more than 50% would spend more than 1000 euros) and you know exactly what you want. However, it was still useful to get the opinions of experts on the matter. Actually, very useful, and I thank you for the many replies.


Although none of the places you have been posting your request tend to be frequented by your target market, as posters, they will almost certainly view the pages when making their buying decision.

I guess the point with a truly disruptive product, is that it disrupts the market, in the same way that dyson both stole thunder from Kirby & also nearly trebled the amount most people would spend on a vacuum cleaner, so a convincing product could definitely change the landscape beyond recognition!

To re-iterate Lorenzo, I think your motivations are worthy, just not possible at the entry point you have outlined, I hope to see you on Kickstarter with a project soon & *more* importantly think you should buy a second hand espresso machine, & get busy posting pictures of how you are modding it for the long hours over the drawing board - I for one would be fascinated to see what someone at your level could come up with


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## guercil (Feb 25, 2016)

oursus said:


> This is less your field of expertise than mine Lorenzo


Indeed I am no expert in this, I have just joined this new team and field of focus. Hopefully after using the LCA software I would have reached your same answer. Also, I have never said that the modular machine would not use a 5kg thermo block, but just that a PID controller would be a nice upgrade. Now I am curious, you seem to know a lot, what do you do?



oursus said:


> ALWAYS been getting customers to buy the new ranges


I do agree. However, I also believe that the consumer is happy to buy new things often, we are all hooked on that buying "high". Often the consumer can ask himself, "do I spend double the money on it, as it will last twice the lifetime? Nah, I can just buy a new one when it breaks". That's where the upgradeability comes in. I want to give the consumer that feeling of getting something new, even though they are simply upgrading their old machine. That is why I added in the survey the upgrade option "new chassis" (which btw no one liked







) . To give the customer the feeling that he got a completely new machine, basically fulfilling his need of consumerism.

About the entry price, yes it is hard to obtain, as the platform has to be of such high quality. However, it was more based on filling the niche between people that are willing to buy a £100 machine and people that want the prosumer 500£ + machines. Also, a sort of bridge to go from one to another without throwing away a machine.

I doubt I will be posting any pictures here... remember this is my job not a DIY project! However, the first steps will indeed include building a platform on which I will mount modules stripped from another coffee machine!


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Also a very long way from expert in coffee Lorenzo, but I know something of the domestic appliance industry...I had responsibility for organising the dismantling & recycling/scrappage of a large number of washing machines, dishwashers etc, both domestically & for export. I now have a desk job in an unrelated field.

The 5kg lump would be the group head, in a commercial or prosumer machine, another 1-2 kg in a portafilter, plus boiler, valves etc, the temperature stability over a shot comes from a larger mass of water relative to shot size in a larger boiler, & the thermal mass of the group head & portafilter, (in SBDU machines, this is...thermoblocks, HX etc are a different matter - SBDU is considered entry level for enthusiast use) you can see the improvement in that metric from a gaggia classic to a rancilio Silvia, for instance. Monitoring that & improving response time with a PID is secondary, but still of interest.

I appreciate the decision flow, I outlined that in my second post... Deferred Pro status. My point is again, the chassis, or platform, will either necessitate a total rebuild, in which case the project will require technical proficiency that takes you back into DIY engineering, or will take you into a higher price bracket initially, competing with the Sage machines...

I had meant you should start a DIY project machine, you will benefit from the caffeinated mental acuity on long project hours  & if "help me design the perfect coffee machine" were your request, I'm sure there would be no end of suggestions & argument ensuing! (On a serious note though, there are some extremely knowledgeable people on this forum, who work with the machines, repair, modify, sell, test & review)

As @dfk41 mentions, most important is a capable grinder, more important than the brewing machine: a small footprint, 120mm flat burr 500 rpm on-demand grinder, with a chamber perpendicular to grind path & an auto clearing throat/chute for 250 euros would go down well, if you need one of those beta-testing, just let me know!


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

hotmetal said:


> It was bad enough when they just worried about banana straightness.


Sorry for off-topic, do you have any reference to this claim?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Stanic said:


> Sorry for off-topic, do you have any reference to this claim?


Very off-topic, but YES. I think they repealed (re-peeled?) part of it because it made the EU look not only silly, but needlessly wasteful of food.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_Regulation_(EC)_No._2257/94


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

thanks! Funny, but at least they scraped some common sense in the end :-D


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

The real question is whether you will be able to connect an iPad so that you can place your portafilter on it, get the grounds weight and then time and weight of the shot.

This is technically possible... Demo with plums:


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## guercil (Feb 25, 2016)

Also, what do you guys think are the components that break more often in a coffee machine? And the ones more susceptible to wear and tear? Thanks!


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## Quetzalcoatsy (Feb 20, 2016)

Any sort of gasket, seal etc tends to be the first to wear down, along with joining pieces between components


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

would you like to tell us the sort of machine that you expect to take sales from? Prosumer and commercial machines cost so much because the components are made to last......


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## guercil (Feb 25, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> would you like to tell us the sort of machine that you expect to take sales from?


What do you mean with this?

I'm trying to understand which parts break faster so that they can be made more accessible to fix/replace...


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Plastic and nylon parts.

Solenoids and and other moving parts that come in contact with water will die ... Make them easily replaceable

pcb's if unavailable will render a modern machine useless ... Either have a 25 year supply of these or don't use them


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> Remember the vacuum cleaners and how they forced a max power limit on them...so they suck now. It's the same with Espresso machines, i hear they are going to impose a 300W limit....lets vote out.


Oh I was joking about the Espesso machine power limit........


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