# Newb Chemex questions



## Daren

OK - at the risk of sounding like an idiot I have a couple of Chemex questions.

I've been using my Chemex for a couple of months now. Results are a little bit hit and miss. When they are good they are REALLY GOOD, but other times just a bit meh (it's not helped with me still using a big metal milk jug as a pouring kettle - I need to bite the bullet and just buy one).

Q1. I've been watching a few videos of brewing techniques and noticed some people stir the grind at bloom stage. This is not something I do? What is the consensus of opinion?

Q2. Do you do anything to maintain water temperature from your pouring kettle during the brewing process?

(My mum says there is no such thing as a stupid question - maybe I'm proving her wrong?)


----------



## Neill

Q1, I've started using a NSEW stir during bloom, I've noticed dry spots in the bed while doing this so guess it improves saturation.

Q2 I keep my pouring kettle on the hob between pours otherwise I do find the temp drops.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Q1. I don't stir the bloom - I make a divot in the grinds and, for the bloom, pour from the edge into the centre and keep pouring until I am satisfied the grinds are evenly saturated. This can vary depending on how old the coffee is. I think stirring the bloom will up the extraction yield - something, paradoxically, I try to avoid as my sweet spot range is around 19% and it's very easy to go above that unless I stay on top of things.

Q2. Temperature is critical. I pour into the grinds at 94c and then return the kettle to the stove. From there, I pour almost boiling water into the grinds. No danger of overheating - doing this will keep the temp on the water in the grinds at around 90c which is ideal.

Main thing with any pour over method is to be obsessively consistent - something I have no problem with - being obsessive that is


----------



## Mrboots2u

I don't stir at bloom

I add water just of boiling in three pours

I have a thermapen I use to check water and slurry if needed.

Again its about finding something you can do and replicate. I split my three pours in 150g each after a 50 g bloom.


----------



## Daren

Thanks guys - I can see I've got a lot to learn.

Patrick... Your method (especially the bloom stage) would be best demonstrate by a video









Come on - you know you want too (I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to see it)


----------



## jeebsy

I stir my bloom - but you probably don't want to copy me.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Promised Clive I would put together a Chemex routine - will do it tomorrow - got a hangover today so not in the best frame of mind


----------



## Mrboots2u

If its tasty and repeatable then its fine ..stir or not stirring

I don't stir the bloom as I found it difficult to repeat each time ( how many times, what force, what direction ...)


----------



## Mrboots2u

Here is 30g of coffee from today's chemex. Same method as above.

1.75 ish whole turns of zero on the hausgrind

19.8 EY Patrick

More importantly really balanced and tasty


----------



## aaronb

I don't stir ever, and after the bloom I keep slwoly topping up water to maintain the fill to about half full at all times.

Try a lower temperature than you are used to, say 91 degree bloom and then down to 85 for the rest. Just try it.

Also stop the pour when the water is 2cm above the bed of coffee by pulling the paper and ticking it in a mug. Try drinking this last bit of extraction - it will be bitter and nasty. you don't want it in your coffee. This also works with the aeropress and clever and makes a massive difference.

I cant take credit for those 2 steps, they were recommended to me by Kofra in Norwich but have improved my brew no end.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Supports my pet theory that the sweet spot - certainly for Chemex is in the 19%-20% range which seems to give the best balance between flavour clarity and body.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

aaronb said:


> Also stop the pour when the water is 2cm above the bed of coffee by pulling the paper and ticking it in a mug. Try drinking this last bit of extraction - it will be bitter and nasty. you don't want it in your coffee.


Interesting point but it will mean your extraction yield will be higher.


----------



## Glenn

I also make a divot in the bloom prior to pouring

You get better saturation as the water is absorbed through the walls and all parts of the grinds are wetted and can expand prior to the next phase - the slow steady pour


----------



## Daren

How bigger divot? Half a thumb?


----------



## Mrboots2u

The Systemic Kid said:


> Interesting point but it will mean your extraction yield will be higher.


If everything is equal ( grind , temp, flow rate etc). Sounds like Aaron uses lower water temp will extract less / slower ?


----------



## Glenn

Half a thumb is fine


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Daren said:


> How bigger divot? Half a thumb?


You'll see when I make the video


----------



## garydyke1

1. Only with the pour itself, fast and aggressive.

2. Temp controlled Bonivita kettle. Biggest single improvement to my brewed coffee at home.

Ive settled on this for work with the Uber grinder (setting 5.5)/Uber font:

50g water bloom for 30 sec

additional 200g by 1 min.

additional 125g by 1.45

final 125g by 2.30

Final drips 4min

TDS 1.26-1.30%

At home with the EK (setting 15-16)/Bonivita:

50g water bloom for 30 sec

additional 200g by 1.30 min.

additional 125g by 2.15

final 125g by 3 min

Final drips 4.30-5min

TDS 1.30-1.35%

Reason being the extraction from the EK can afford to be pushed a fair bit higher & the pours have slightly different effects on the slurry


----------



## Daren

The Systemic Kid said:


> You'll see when I make the video


You da man!

Can't wait


----------



## Mrboots2u

The Systemic Kid said:


> You'll see when I make the video


Be interesting to have some different approaches..

I might try one also..

Use a hausgrind?


----------



## Daren

garydyke1 said:


> 1. Only with the pour itself, fast and aggressive.


Arrh man! Now my head is spinning.... That's another option I hadn't even considered - but I like the sound of it.

Yes stir, No stir, Make a divot, Yes stir with the pour, mysterious "wait for the movie premiere" - and we are only on the 2nd page of this thread.


----------



## garydyke1

Daren said:


> Arrh man! Now my head is spinning.... That's another option I hadn't even considered - but I like the sound of it.
> 
> Yes stir, No stir, Make a divot, Yes stir with the pour, mysterious "wait for the movie premiere" - and we are only on the 2nd page of this thread.


Stick to one technique and change one element at a time until you're happy. Perhaps a sacrificial bag of beans and spend an hour or so playing


----------



## Glenn

Gary has nailed it. Only change 1 variable at a time, and record what you like/dislike at each change to help you get to the best brew possible.


----------



## jeebsy

garydyke1 said:


> At home with the EK (setting 15-16)/Bonivita:
> 
> 50g water bloom for 30 sec
> 
> additional 200g by 1.30 min.
> 
> additional 125g by 2.15
> 
> final 125g by 3 min
> 
> Final drips 4.30-5min
> 
> TDS 1.30-1.35%
> 
> Reason being the extraction from the EK can afford to be pushed a fair bit higher & the pours have slightly different effects on the slurry


Made a Chemex on Thursday with the Cheleba which was a knockout but took 5 mins, tried another yesterday which came in at 4 mins 20 but wasn't as tasty.

Got one sitting here which took closer to five that smells amazing, waiting for it to cool but think my preference is for slightly longer extractions. Was ground at 14 on the 3fe dial but i'm using a smaller dose


----------



## Daren

The Systemic Kid said:


> You'll see when I make the video


Excitedly looking for it.....


----------



## The Systemic Kid

It's been filmed - nod to Swedish noir - edited - just looking to put a soundtrack to it. Should be on the forum tomorrow.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Found the perfect soundtrack - Black Sabbath - will upload tomorrow.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

OK, here's the Chemex brew video






Anyone spot the deliberate - bet Gary does


----------



## jeebsy

Is the ek41 last year's model?


----------



## jeebsy

Don't have time to watch it all just now but the first three mind were interesting - your pours are quite aggressive compared to mine. I'll try that out later


----------



## The Systemic Kid

jeebsy said:


> Is the ek41 last year's model?


Early prototype


----------



## Mrboots2u

The Systemic Kid said:


> Early prototype


Turks still?


----------



## Daren

Superb video Patrick. I can see I've got a lot to learn still - but this will help no end.

Monkey see - Monkey do


----------



## MWJB

The Systemic Kid said:


> OK, here's the Chemex brew video


didn't pour out the rinse water?

EDIT - OK just noticed the "discard water".


----------



## The Systemic Kid

MWJB said:


> didn't pour out the rinse water?
> 
> EDIT - OK just noticed the "discard water".


Nah, that's not the deliberate mistake


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Mrboots2u said:


> Turks still?


Turks still - at full coarsest setting.


----------



## Rdl81

Would a v60 work same as this?


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Rdl81 said:


> Would a v60 work same as this?


Broadly, yes. But you have to take more care pouring with V60 as its side walls have vanes which keep the filter off the side wall. If you are not diligent, you can, when pouring towards the periphery of the filter, pour water down through the vane and not into the bed which will cause significant under extraction. With Chemex, the filter paper is in direct contact with its side wall so less chance of water bypassing the bed.


----------



## jeebsy

Rdl81 said:


> Would a v60 work same as this?


[video=youtube;MPDfn--vxK8]


----------



## Rdl81

Thanks thinking more about the recipe for the v60 I am sure I am using too fine a grind in both my v60 and aeropress but as I am using a hand grinder it's hard to adjust but my grind is very fine


----------



## The Systemic Kid

The great one's bed isn't flat - surprised he didn't do it all again.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Rdl81 said:


> Thanks thinking more about the recipe for the v60 I am sure I am using too fine a grind in both my v60 and aeropress but as I am using a hand grinder it's hard to adjust but my grind is very fine


Have a look at Boots' pics in post 9 above. Grind should be medium coarse for V60. In MP's clip, he's done, timewise, in 2min 30sec for 200grm brew water weight. What dose/brew water weight are you using and how long is it taking to complete the brew?


----------



## Rdl81

Using 26g and 360g of water takes around 3.30

Including 45sec bloom


----------



## The Systemic Kid

How are you finding the coffee? Would think it's over-extracted at a ratio of 1:14 (26grms & 360grm water). If you like what it produces, stick with it. If not, try adjusting your brew ratio to 1:17. Perhaps cut the bloom time too - no more than 30secs. Timing seems fine for 360grms.


----------



## Rdl81

I was using the has bean first offer beans and struggling to get all the flavours


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Rdl81 said:


> I was using the has bean first offer beans and struggling to get all the flavours


That's what I figured - the aim is to get a good balance between flavour clarity and body/mouthfeel. If the extraction is above 20% extraction yield, the delicate flavour clarity gets blocked out by the coffee's body/mouthfeel.

Try the higher brew ratio of 1:17 and tweak by opening up the grind until you're getting the delicate bean characteristics. Don't be tempted to change the dose as you will end up trying to control too many variables at once.

Also, let the coffee cool - as it does so, it's character can change dramatically. My preferred drinking temp is in the 50-55c range.


----------



## drude

The Systemic Kid said:


> OK, here's the Chemex brew video


Forgot the milk and sugar at the end?

Seriously, great video. I never got round to getting a Chemex but am very keen to try one out.


----------



## garydyke1

You calibrated in espresso mode?


----------



## Rdl81

Ok so I made some adjustments to the grind for the v60 and using 26g of coffee and 442g of water I am getting extraction of 2.40 inc 30sec bloom so think I went a bit too course on grind so will try a little more fine next but this definitely gave more delicate flavours.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Sounds as if you are not far from spot on.


----------



## jeebsy

what size v60 are you using?


----------



## Rdl81

The free one from pact...so I think it's the "2"


----------



## jeebsy

Do you get the same variation between beans and extraction time with brewed? Experience would suggest so but thought this thread would be an appropriate place to ask


----------



## MWJB

For a given recipe grind, grinder, brewer & method, a consistent time vs output may give a ball park guide to consistency. Probably not enough to hone in on a target %, especially with different beans & roast levels.

If by brewed, you are going to include steeping, then times can be so disparate as to make the concept of time alone almost useless...but the more parameters you can identify & control the better.


----------



## rajb

i don't know if this is the right place to ask - so apologies in advance if i am derailing this thread - but Patrick, you mentioned that in order not over-extract, you should widen the brew ratio from 1:14 to 1:17 - i.e. more water for same weight of beans. Wouldn't this actually over-extract from the bean and dilute the flavour?

I thought the point of a narrow brew ratio (smaller amount of water per weight of bean) was to purposely under-extract, since there is less water pulling less out of the bean - so you keep more florals at the sacrifice of body? this is why (as i understood it, and would be the first to concede that my understanding is wrong so I haven't got a refractometer or done any experiments to prove this) the japanese use a narrow brew ratio and a dark roast since that is there preferred flavour profile - thats why the hario box says 12g in 120mls.

if you widen the brew ration - expose the same weight of beans to more water, more of this water pulls more out of the beans - so you over-extract - i.e. pull more flavour at the risk of over-extracting and getter a fuller bodied or eventually bitter cup?

somewhere in between, and with the right time and temperature thrown in, lies nirvana - but really i wanted to query brew ratios and extraction.

anyone with any science on this?

thanks

raj


----------



## rajb

PS brilliant video, Patrick, thank you for your effort

didn't the song have something have something about extraction in it?

r


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Raj, the key focus is extraction yield - i.e. amount of coffee extracted as a percentage. For the beans I prefer to drink as pour over, I find water to bean dose ratio of 1:17 works in respect of getting the best balance of flavour clarity and body/mouthfeel. If it's the latter you're going for then extraction yields of 20% and above will be fine but you will lose the delicate flavour nuances which I find peak around 19% extraction yield bringing out the bean's unique flavours without the coffee tasting thin, i.e. lacking body. I use a refractometer meter to calibrate my pour over and find, even at brew ratio of 1:17 the challenge is to bring in the brew under 20-21% so I grind as coarse as I can on my grinder and avoid things like stirring the grinds during the brew as this will increase the extraction yield.


----------



## MWJB

rajb said:


> i don't know if this is the right place to ask - so apologies in advance if i am derailing this thread - but Patrick, you mentioned that in order not over-extract, you should widen the brew ratio from 1:14 to 1:17 - i.e. more water for same weight of beans. Wouldn't this actually over-extract from the bean and dilute the flavour?


Brew ratio is principally the driver of concentration (ideal %TDS range, some might call this strength). You can over, or underextract coffee at any strength...where you land extraction-wise depends on grind & how fast the water flows though the bed.

Theoretically, at high brew ratios it becomes harder to overextract. If at a given grind, pour & ratio that extracts nominally, you simply pour less water (raising the brew ratio in terms of g/l)/quicker, yes, you will under extract...but the idea is you compensate (adjust grind) to try & stick to your target yield. Conversely in a nominal brew, if you keep adding brew water & let it all drain, you are likely to overextract.

1:14 should give you a %TDS around 1.60% if nominally extracted in a typical drip brew...it's not impossible that coffee can be very pleasant in this range (maybe from a Clever), but it is outside of typical norms (SCAA/SCAE/NCA ideal boxes). However, a technique I have used (when being lazy, not wanting to adjust a grinder from fine) is to brew at 1:14, achieving a mid box extraction fairly reliably, then topping up the brewed coffee with water from the kettle to the original brew water weight, so the drink ends up at 1:14 too...which puts the final beverage back into the typical concentration range & retains the same extraction yield. Normally, you'd aim to just end up where you want without bypassing...the more steps, the more than can go wrong.


----------



## Daren

What temperature probe are you using Patrick?


----------



## jeebsy

Thermapen


----------



## Daren

jeebsy said:


> Thermapen


Ta Jeebsy. Any recommendations where to purchase


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Daren said:


> What temperature probe are you using Patrick?


Thermapen - not the cheapest but fast, accurate and certified. You can pick them up on Ebay - they come from the manufacturer - lot cheaper than elsewhere.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=u.k.&UA=M*S%3F&agid=950263777&GUID=9ffe5cc21230a0b583514ac1ffdf8bdb&MT_ID=10&crlp=2897342047_228459_228460&_dmd=2&keyword=u.k.&ff4=228459_228460&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR8.TRC1.A0.H0.Xthermapen&_nkw=thermapen&_sacat=0


----------



## Rdl81

Is it just more or is there some strange things in that link


----------



## The Systemic Kid

What strange things?


----------



## coyote

"Woman sexy underwear"









Here's the link with thermapen..

http://m.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=Thermapen&isNewKw=1&_sop=12&_pgn=1&epp=24&itemId=&fads=1&mfs=GOCLK&acimp=0&sqp=thermapen&trksid=p2053742.m2428.l1313.TR8.TRC1.Xthermapen


----------



## MWJB

coyote said:


> "Woman sexy underwear"


Awww...I can't see them...I mean "my friend said that he couldn't see them"...ahem...


----------



## jeebsy

The Systemic Kid said:


> Thermapen - not the cheapest but fast, accurate and certified. You can pick them up on Ebay - they come from the manufacturer - lot cheaper than elsewhere.
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=u.k.&UA=M*S%3F&agid=950263777&GUID=9ffe5cc21230a0b583514ac1ffdf8bdb&MT_ID=10&crlp=2897342047_228459_228460&_dmd=2&keyword=u.k.&ff4=228459_228460&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR8.TRC1.A0.H0.Xthermapen&_nkw=thermapen&_sacat=0


Bit disappointed they've got all the colours back in - I had to get a purple one


----------



## Daren

jeebsy said:


> Bit disappointed they've got all the colours back in - I had to get a purple one


There is a tartan one for you mate! I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on it and giving it to the misses for her baking (that's what I'll tell her....







she can't moan at me then)


----------



## Daren

The Systemic Kid said:


> OK, here's the Chemex brew video


I tried replicating all of this (apart from the refractor doodar thingamy thing).

Using Hasbean Indian Bibi Coorg washed HDT CatuvaiI....WOW - what a difference! The flavours were popping! Such a nice mouth feel. I can't get enough of this.

Thanks Patrick for the lesson

Thanks Hasbean for the roast

Thanks Martin for beans

Thanks everyone that's chipped in with advice on this thread


----------



## Xpenno

The Systemic Kid said:


> OK, here's the Chemex brew video


Not seen this video until today Patrick, contender for best coffee video ever, bested only by the EK without the bagging mech attached. Love the vortex thing, it's clear from this that I'm a total brewb!


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Cheers, Spence.


----------



## michaelg

The Systemic Kid said:


> Cheers, Spence.


Thought I was pretty familiar with the whole Sabbath back catalogue but that one is new to me! What song is that? Nice video too - impressed with the editing skills. I'm fine with photo editing but video I have no clue about. I've used the video on my D7000 a handful of times at most.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

It's BS's album '13', Michael - released in 2013 featuring BS's original line up - brilliant - BS at their best like, er, in the '70s.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Track is, 'Age of Wonder'.


----------



## michaelg

The Systemic Kid said:


> Track is, 'Age of Wonder'.


Thanks - must have missed it. Sounds pretty good - a bit like Down who themselves are clearly Sabbath influenced \m/


----------



## Hairy_Hogg

As a new Chemex owner can someone who uses theirs with a Feldgrind give me an indication of what your setting is for Chemex. If you have a setting for V60 and what your zero is for a point of reference that would be great. Just need a starting point to tune in from.


----------



## Skipper1988

some solid advice here guys, I have a chemex and always find that when I order a coffee made in the chemed it's better then what I make personally at home. I've been trying some different things but this advice is great.


----------



## gingerneil

Santa brought me a chemex this year - so I'm researching! I know this is an old thread, but the video seems to have been lost. Does it still exist out there somewhere?

As a slight aside, does anyone use a hotplate to keep the chemex warm if you're brewing two cups but drinking one at a time? Maybe heresy, but I was looking at a USB version to sit next to my kettle. Any thoughts?


----------



## MWJB

gingerneil said:


> As a slight aside, does anyone use a hotplate to keep the chemex warm if you're brewing two cups but drinking one at a time? Maybe heresy, but I was looking at a USB version to sit next to my kettle. Any thoughts?


It's not so much heresy, more that the drink degrades if kept on a hot plate for a long time.

If you're drinking the 2 cups in quick succession, then the 2 might still be warm enough to enjoy without heating, many people find coffee tastes good to them at a little over 50C.

Otherwise, I'd pour both cups at the end of brew (split the pour between them, bit by bit), let the 2nd go cold & microwave to reheat, maybe 40-50s?


----------



## ashcroc

MWJB said:


> >>
> 
> Otherwise, I'd pour both cups at the end of brew (split the pour between them, bit by bit), let the 2nd go cold & microwave to reheat, maybe 40-50s?


Done that plenty of times with my syphon except I don't bother pouring the 2nd mug until I want to drink it.


----------



## gingerneil

Microwave makes sense, and is what I've been doing. Probably stick with that then. Ta. Now to experiment with the brew!!


----------



## Power Freak

gingerneil said:


> Santa brought me a chemex this year - so I'm researching! I know this is an old thread, but the video seems to have been lost. Does it still exist out there somewhere?
> 
> As a slight aside, does anyone use a hotplate to keep the chemex warm if you're brewing two cups but drinking one at a time? Maybe heresy, but I was looking at a USB version to sit next to my kettle. Any thoughts?


I've put a chemex on the stove top a few times and it's been fine, I think chemex tell you that's an ok thing to do (just put it on the lowest possible heat, no direct heat etc.).

But I don't like that for taste reasons though, what works for me is to place a lid on the chemex (they sell one but anything that fits in will work) and then wrap the whole thing up in some dish towels/oven gloves or better yet cover in a tea cosy and place on a towel - this should insulate the brew. The 2nd brew will still be at a good drinking temperature when required and won't have spoiled.


----------



## Hairy_Hogg

Hairy_Hogg said:


> As a new Chemex owner can someone who uses theirs with a Feldgrind give me an indication of what your setting is for Chemex. If you have a setting for V60 and what your zero is for a point of reference that would be great. Just need a starting point to tune in from.


 Moohasive bump...

Pulled my Chemex out the cupboard the other day and gave it a good dust off.

Still interested on other peoples Feldgrind setting based on their V60 setting for this (I have old skool Feldy). For example I am 2+0 on the whole for V60 so does 2+8 sound reasonable for Chemex


----------



## Tongle

The Systemic Kid said:


> Found the perfect soundtrack - Black Sabbath - will upload tomorrow.


 Glad to have found this thread.

First thanks Kid for the excellent video and awesome soundtrack!

My question is about timing.

I usually have my Baratza Encore set at 18 and use 18g with 300g water. 
30 second bloom with a swirl.

The pretty much the James Hoffman V60 approach of 60% by 1:15 and the rest by 1:45.

My total time tends to be around the 2:30 mark which seems fast to me. The draw down is rather rapid! Although the brew tastes good to me I'm not sure I'm getting the best out of the thing.

Not sure there's much to do except reduce grind size. Although my water may be on the hot side which I have heard can also affect draw down but Hoffman (almighty?) suggested medium to light beans such as mine benefit from higher temperatures.

Anyway if this thread is still active I'd really appreciate some thoughts.


----------



## MWJB

Tongle said:


> Glad to have found this thread.
> 
> First thanks Kid for the excellent video and awesome soundtrack!
> 
> My question is about timing.
> 
> I usually have my Baratza Encore set at 18 and use 18g with 300g water.
> 30 second bloom with a swirl.
> 
> The pretty much the James Hoffman V60 approach of 60% by 1:15 and the rest by 1:45.
> 
> My total time tends to be around the 2:30 mark which seems fast to me. The draw down is rather rapid! Although the brew tastes good to me I'm not sure I'm getting the best out of the thing.
> 
> Not sure there's much to do except reduce grind size. Although my water may be on the hot side which I have heard can also affect draw down but Hoffman (almighty?) suggested medium to light beans such as mine benefit from higher temperatures.
> 
> Anyway if this thread is still active I'd really appreciate some thoughts.


 Sure try a finer grind (I tend to brew almost as coarse as I can though, but I don't make a lot of Chemex brews), just to explore that avenue & eliminate a line of enquiry & don't worry about water temp, boiling water in the kettle is only just hot enough. You can easily go back to your current setting if it doesn't work & be sure to make a few brews at each new setting to make sure it is consistent.

If you're generally happy with your brews & you feel they are representative of the coffee, maybe enjoy the scenery for a bit before hopping down a rabbit hole


----------



## Tongle

Rabbit hole is absolutely right there!

I mean....this stuff is just flavoured water in the end isn't it?


----------

