# Slow start espresso - scratching head?



## FullBloomCoffee (Mar 19, 2015)

Hi all,

im having a bit of a tough one and wondered if I'm missing something.

for the past day or so I am having issues with the start of my espresso pours, usually I'd expect the pour to start around the 6 second mark, however for some reason at now starting at 11-12 second each time.

now the confusing part is that I am still dosing at the correct amount, the grind size is spot on, the yield is correct and the extraction time overall is correct.

ive tried adjusting these variables however because everything else is correct any adjustment knocks out my yield or extraction time.

the machine is also religiously cleaned so no issues with filters, baskets, shower screens etc.

any ideas?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

How does it taste?

If good, why are you worrying ..

All the numbers are measures, they are there to adjust and repeat to get to tasty. But tasty is all that matters.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Mine starts about 11 seconds - that in and of itself is nothing to worry about.

My machine is set to about 7 bar, if it's set to 9 the pour starts at about 9-10 seconds.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If taste = bad.

Are you using a bottomless pf, if not use one, the shot could be channeling.

Same time and weight out , can happen it different ways, depending on basket prep.


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## FullBloomCoffee (Mar 19, 2015)

Unlikely that there is channeling and the taste is fine.

its just something I'd like to understand as it's run differently for the last 2 years but for some reason has changed in the last couple of days. Will keep an eye on it as if it increases by any more I'd assume it would taste over extracted.

and not using bottomless filters as we occasionally split the shot so a spout is better for our use.

its the same with multiple baristas making drinks we would leave me to assume its a pressure change on the machine rather than anything else.

although the pressure looks like it hasn't moved either :/


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

BeanAbout said:


> Unlikely that there is channeling and the taste is fine.
> 
> its just something I'd like to understand as it's run differently for the last 2 years but for some reason has changed in the last couple of days. Will keep an eye on it as if it increases by any more I'd assume it would taste over extracted.
> 
> ...


Different beans/roasts have different densities & and can grind up slightly different at the same setting. So if the drips take a little longer to start, this might be normal, as can a slightly longer shot time (there is no correct shot time, just a range of acceptable).

I wouldn't assume over-extraction until you definitely hit it...might take a much longer ratio than you expect.

Static/blind pressure (what the OPV sees with a blind basket) may not change, but the varying resistance of your puck changes the actual pressure at same pump/OPV setting. This is normal.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

BeanAbout said:


> Unlikely that there is channeling and the taste is fine.
> 
> its just something I'd like to understand as it's run differently for the last 2 years but for some reason has changed in the last couple of days. Will keep an eye on it as if it increases by any more I'd assume it would taste over extracted.
> 
> ...


Get a bottomless porta filter to check though, plenty of people have been suprised when they haven't used one for a while .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

This is a general comment.

I see reference to shots being labelled over extracted alot on various posts.

If you are referencing over extraction as falling outside the SCA "zones" then it's unlikely any 1:2 ratio shot at 25-35 seconds is going to be over extracted ( above 21 % measured by a refractomter ) Of course I dont know the roast level of the coffee, but even then , the shot would need to be pretty strong ( say TDS of 10.5 ? ) to get to going " over extracted " . Yes it can happen , but with alot of speciality coffee in use , it aint that easy to extract over 30 seconds







.

It's always IMHO opinion to try and describe where the taste lacks ( bitter, overly sour, weak etc ) than use under and over extracted.

People seem to assume or confuse a strong shot ( where if the ratio is short then it's more than likely " under extracted" ) or a bitter one with "over extracted" , when its more than likely pushing through extraction may get to a sweeter spot , or simply reducing the strength and increasing the brew ratio may again lead to more sweetness.


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

Ive noticed a bit of change in extraction recently which he has probably been down to the hot weather/humidity.... Yes, even in Scotland!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

If it's one of the Sage machines that can or do work in volume mode something may have changed and it's correcting for it. As the volume out rate increases with time (







for me anyway ) the total shot time may not change that much.

Main thing though with bells on is taste. If that hasn't broke why fix it.

John

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## FullBloomCoffee (Mar 19, 2015)

Thanks for your comments guys.

ill just keep an eye on it for now, I just wanted to understand really why this may have changed as nothing that we have done has been altered, and the coffee is still the same blend and according to the roaster has no change either.

its just odd it's been stable for nearly 3 years but for some reason has changed recently.

and @ajohn we are using a la marzooco fb80 machine


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

BeanAbout said:


> Thanks for your comments guys.
> 
> ill just keep an eye on it for now, I just wanted to understand really why this may have changed as nothing that we have done has been altered, and the coffee is still the same blend and according to the roaster has no change either.
> 
> ...


1. Same coffee over three years , the coffee will have changed , perhaps you are just noticing it now. Plus it's a blend , it will absolutely have changed over the three years. Perhaps this is just a more drastic change. It your roaster is saying it's "exactly the same" coffee three years in then I not sure how he can say that., new crop, same bean will differ year on year, thats if you have the same stuff in the blend each year. Even then greens age, will roast differently ...

2. Get a naked, really, you won't know if its channeling or choking unless you do.

3 If ut tasted good , don't worry, it's wasted energy.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It was just a thought. Bought on down to using a lowly Sage Barista Express and assuming it used time shots then shortly before changing machine finding out it's very probably volumetric. I had the distinct impression that shot time varied a bit at times but as I just used the machine for timing wasn't totally sure. Taste to me was pretty constant even though I'd be standing there ready to pick the mug up thinking this is longer than usual on odd occasions. That's probably only a some seconds longer than normal.

Many commercial machines are volumetric. Might be the reason other aspects are still the same - I don't know but even a couple of extra seconds on a shot can make a significant difference to the volume that comes out and may be needed to maintain the volume out if infusion is taking longer to generate some flow.

John

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