# Too many choices!.... What first espresso machine?



## woof woof (May 16, 2020)

Ok so having spent several days on youtube videos, and lurking around this forum I am still lost.

Background.. Man-years ago bought a Krups 962 (yes have a good laugh) that has been stored safely out of sight. I have become used to buying an espresso/americano each day when travelling to London, and now in East Sussex - in the big chains (costa, Nero). With the lockdown the Krups has come out ... and actually I am making the occasional drinkable coffee!

But I now want to get serious - but only maybe 1-2 cups a day.

I had settled initially on a sage bambino, but the more I read, the more worry I have that it is a dead end? Sounds great but the 53mm portafilter does limit things? Particularly since I am now waiting for a Niche grinder having read on here that the grinder is probably more important than the machine. So as the bambino price stayed high during lockdown... and then availability disappeared at the lower price... I thought right the duo temp! With buying a decent tamper, and the different baskets (unpressurised) will give a bit more leeway for honing in (read learning as a novice) that maybe the bambino doesn't offer.

However all I read is Gaggia classic ... and if you look at the number of posts in the coffee fora here the major players are sage and Gaggia.

What I do need is

1. a relatively small footprint (hence part reason for the grinder)

2. Not to have to wait forever for machine to warm up (is this a problem.... a few minutes is fine but read some posts of 20-30 mins for the classico?)

3. Ideally a better portafilter - which the Gaggi has?

4. I am in a moderately soft water area

5. The machine does not have to be for life ...so could get sage now and upgrade later?

6. Must not be too ugly to get it kept on the kitchen surfaces

7. also tolerate me being away for several 2 week periods every year (I go to China often - well used to!)

Whilst I am not too fussed with brands, Gaggia clearly has a good name and the breville sandwich toaster continues to work well (also in a cupboard).......

Help! I would have already bought a bambino but for the price and availability as it is not just me who needs his fix during the "lockdown"

Thanks for any advice....


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## ThePeginator (Dec 17, 2019)

2nd hand Gaggia Classic and the best grinder you can afford.

Heats up in 10-20 minutes, more like 10 if you get one with a PID (or fit one yourself - it's fairly easy). All parts are cheaply user serviceable / replaceable, plus they're fairly bulletproof to begin with, mine's from 2007! Because of that buying 2nd hand isn't really an issue - especially if you get one off here and it's been looked after. Ticks all your boxes really.

The biggest piece of advice I was given is that at this level the grinder makes more difference than the machine. I took a gamble for £60 on a used classic, stripped and descaled it myself, added a PID, and spent £250 on an ex-commercial grinder.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RobbieTheTruth (Jun 4, 2019)

Agree with the above.

I did loads of research too - and I determined the cheapest acceptable way to entry was a Gaggia Classic with PID and 9 bar pressure.

Wait around and buy one that comes up for sale here.

The 58mm portafilter is handy as most accessories are this size.

The Grinder is more important than the machine at this level, so getting the Niche was a good call.

I got the Niche, which at £500, was far more than I'd anticipated to spend, but it should do me for life really. The next real worthy upgrade on this is circa £1000 - so I spent £500 on something I really wanted, rather than £300 on something I was settling on.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Another vote for the Classic.

And if you can't wait because you want it quickly when you get up for work then pop it on a timer switch. It will be properly hot when you get up. Problem solved 😁


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Whichever way you go don't forget to factor in about £80-100 for accessories.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

CocoLoco said:


> Whichever way you go don't forget to factor in about £80-100 for accessories.


 Per month 😉😫🤷‍♂️


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I did what you did, read and read and initially looked at sage machines

Then saw the love for the gaggia and took a punt

Worst mistake i made, didn't get one good shot out the gaggia, on their own with no opd and opv mod there hard to work with, i went through 500g of beans and it all went down the sink.

I then sold it and went back to looking at sage machines

I settled on the duo temp pro price dropped to £249 del

The first shot i made was 10 times that id done on the gaggia.

I think the classic has that nostalgia thing to it, like everyones first car, dont get me wrong. In capable hands it will make a great drink, but the learning curve was way too steep.

I settled on a hand grinder and the dtp, 54mm pf bot been an issuse all the big boys sell tampers and the likes


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## ThePeginator (Dec 17, 2019)

CocoLoco said:


> Whichever way you go don't forget to factor in about £80-100 for accessories.


This is true. The machine is the tip of the iceberg...

Assuming you're going fairly budget:
Tamper - £30-50
Tamping mat - £5-10
Scales - £5-30
Milk jug - £10-20
Naked portafilter - £30
Descaler & Pulycaff - £20

The only one of you those you "need" to start is the tamper and arguably the scales, but you'll end up needing most at some point.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Harvey (Apr 27, 2020)

I haven't the experience of most on here. But I've had my Sage DTP for just over 2 years now and I still think it's a very complete package.

Yes, the portafilter is a bit of a pain in its size, but you can pretty much buy every accessory you want to upgrade in a 53mm size now. Another bonus is the sage machines do come with everything you need to get started, 4 baskets, milk pitcher, tamper etc. Yes, it's not the best but you can make a start. I'm not sure what the classics come without the box.

It also has a very small footprint, and in my eyes looks a lot better! But that is my opinion.


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## woof woof (May 16, 2020)

Thanks everyone for your input. Made it an easy choice! True if I only I had just watched the first half - 3-0 at HT. Now its 3-2 and the board is up for extra time!

Actually yes still seems jury out.. the Sage does look better (although the space for the tamper ... why? looks like the Albert Hall..)... and I get the impression that it is quicker to dial in than the Classic. But 53mm portafilter ..... I really am vacillating! Almost resorting to ask SWMBO... but then it will be purely on looks. And that is not unimportant ...

Sorry I really am coming across as yes.. but no.. but yes... but no.. Normally I am decisive - honest!


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

The Sage comes with a PID (or some equivalent so has good temperature control) and the Gaggia doesn't (out of the box), and a PID for a classic makes such a difference. Fortunately it is an easy mod to do.

I don't think the Sage has a three way solenoid and most - not all - Classics do, so that makes it a bit more puck mess with Sage.

Either are good, Rancillo is another option, probably easier to resell the Classic. 👍


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Fwiw i dont get wet pucks the machine purges itself

The pid was why i sold mine

Id paid £150 for the classic then a pid ontop is another £100 plus fitting. Then buy a pressure gauge to mod the opv.

All of a sudden the classic stands you at £300.

Here are my pucks 😂


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Do you collect pucks?/Keep them as pets?
Why are they wearing nappies? Not housetrained yet?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Novelty. Was the first time I've emptied my knock box, plus im a hockey goalies so i stop pucks 😂


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Cuprajake said:


> I did what you did, read and read and initially looked at sage machines Then saw the love for the gaggia and took a punt
> 
> Worst mistake i made, didn't get one good shot out the gaggia, on their own with no opd and opv mod there hard to work with, i went through 500g of beans and it all went down the sink.
> 
> ...


And one day that Sage will go wrong.... and you'll end up with a door stopper, or it will cost you so much to fix it that it won't be worth the while.

It's all good, they are capable machines, packed with useful features. As long as you are prepared to treat it as any other kitchen appliance as far as shelf life and repairs go.

The Sage machines are still new and their longevity yet to be determined.

The proven fact is that, Gaggia Classics from 2001 are still going and are being sold for £150 second hand, on average. I think we can call this tried and tested....

Edit: £150 is the average price, to make it clear.

There's a lovely 2001 Classic in the For Sale section going for £100 picked up or £120 delivered.

@"woof woof"


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Yeah, i do agree, they are tried and tested, but you have to modify them to get a good consistent brew out of it.

Lakeland have 3yr warrenty which is pretty good.

It would be nice to gauge what the average time is a person has something like a classic before they upgrade to a 'propper' machine

Im not bashing the classic, just for me as a beginner like the op, it was horrible to use. And very frustrating.

The one in the classifieds is a bargin too.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

ThePeginator said:


> This is true. The machine is the tip of the iceberg...
> 
> Assuming you're going fairly budget:
> Tamper - £30-50
> ...


 I'd say a storage tin is essential, people that don't make many cups a day all have them. I'm using an Airscape which was £25. A water filter if you're not using bottled water is probably a must too. A knockbox most own but you could just knock into a bin if you can.

Other items to get - A dosing funnel depending on your grinder can stop grounds falling everywhere, useful to get things right. A tamping stand, not essential by any means but nice if you're having trouble with tamping. Brush tool to clean the grouphead, could modify a toothbrush though. Timer if your scales don't have them and you don't want to keep using your phone.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Cuprajake said:


> Yeah, i do agree, they are tried and tested, but you have to modify them to get a good consistent brew out of it.
> 
> Lakeland have 3yr warrenty which is pretty good.
> 
> ...


It was my first proper espresso machine. Adjust the pressure was a doddle. I built a pressurised gauge from eBay at the time for £25 (can't remember exactly) - most of the money was the pressure gauge, which, at the time, I was quite naive and bought an oil filled one. You can spend less than £15 instead... 

Then there's the Rancilio wand mod. £20 quid?

It lasted me 3 years. I bought it brand new in 2011 (didn't know these forums existed!) and then I sold it to a friend, and upgraded to a Rocket HX and then to a Pro-700 DB soon after. That lasted me, again, approx 2.5 years.

I now downgraded to a La Pavoni.  - and thinking of my next move. I think I have a 3 year upgrade cycle.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Gaggia Classics from 2001 are still going


 That's a new one lol - 1991 I think they first started, and the old Italian ones are slightly more desirable (1425 W boiler mainly).

You don't even need to buy a pressure gauge to do the OPV mod

There is one going around here

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/22663-one-more-classic-pressure-gauge-available/page/24/?do=embed#comments

But they are cheap to buy, (I think i bought a cheapo for 5-10 quid on ebay) and buy a naked PF, then use the old PF for the gauge if you want to use it often.

Then you start thinking about other mods....



MediumRoastSteam said:


> I now downgraded to a La Pavoni


 I struggle with mine, too many variables.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Just to weigh in with the 54mm basket issue, yes it is a bit annoying but it's not a problem, it doesn't limit you really. Motta do very nice 54m tampers and distributors, it's the bottomless portafilter which is the issue. There's a few options, two are expensive, the other a risk (Chinese Ebay/Alibaba option). Bottomless pf is a curiosity rather than an essential though. I might get one, but not that fussed.

Getting 'competition level' baskets is also a no-go, some people swap theirs out of more expensive better baskets. Others have done this with the Sage too, but it requires a bit of modification. As Sage are aimed at beginners and ease of use, it's not a consideration for most people. Be advised though, Sage say they are easy, good-to-go day one machines. That's not true, there's a learning curve, maybe not as bad as the Gaggia, and yes you don't have to mess about with mods etc, but it takes a while to understand how to get consistent good shots out of a Sage, it's not day one, off you go with nice coffee as you want it.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> It was my first proper espresso machine. Adjust the pressure was a doddle. I built a pressurised gauge from eBay at the time for £25 (can't remember exactly) - most of the money was the pressure gauge, which, at the time, I was quite naive and bought an oil filled one. You can spend less than £15 instead...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Wouldn't call a la pavoni a downgrade. The style makes up for any loss haha ????


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Agentb said:


> I struggle with mine, too many variables.


I learnt to live with it, and I suppose I knew that from the start. It's easy to get hung upon numbers. With the Pavoni, I forget all about it. 

On a serious note, I like that machine for other reasons: easy to service, maintain, repair, parts. Simplicity. Great steaming out of the box. All you need is a single hole steam tip. And heat up time!

My next machine has to be something which heats up equally fast and can steam milk properly too!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Cuprajake said:


> Wouldn't call a la pavoni a downgrade. The style makes up for any loss haha


Given my previous machine was a Pro-700, it's definitely a downgrade! A "different" one though.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> All of a sudden the classic stands you at £300.


 Which is less than a new sage?

i bought my classic new in 2012...... it's still going after a 4 year hibernation in the shed.

want good coffee cheap get an aeropress.... espresso is half science half art.......being a barista is a skill (hence why Starbucks have vending machines not espresso machines....)

doesn't mean a classic is the best machine, doesn't mean others arent better. You can do lots of mods, you don't have to do them you might get better coffee if you do......with the sage (you get what you get that's it....sage wasn't an option when I bought my classic) the other option was the Francis Francis X1 and The rancilio Silvia (at much higher cost) there were some others a Bugatti that looked cool and some more.

im not sure if the classic obsession is specifically British/English language thing or general


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Depends

I got my dtp from jonh lewis for £249 delivered with 2yr warrenty.

Was on sale last month

Suppose its all personal preference


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## matted (Sep 30, 2019)

Used DTP with all the accessories usualy with a bit more kit e.g. bottomless porta filter is about 175 to 150ish

Cracking value imo.

Espresso capable hand grinder again used approx 100 quid.

This is the route i have gone. Sorted for about 250. Hard to beat as a starting package with PID. The portafilter diff size is irrelavent really.

If you upgrade you will prob sell on the sage specific kit and get e61 bits if you go that route. Also hardly any depreciation.


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## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

Just to throw my thoughts in. I bought a classic recently as a total beginner and it has certainly been a learning curve, but I have thoroughly enjoyed the process and I am now making better and better coffee. Starting to mod mine at the moment and I am enjoying the tinkering, but they are definitely capable machines as they come out of the factory. I think what you should buy depends on what sort of person you are and what you want from an espresso machine. I wanted a hobby and the Gaggia has given me that in spades. If just wanted an espresso machine that required no tinkering/fuss and had no learning curve, I'd probably have gotten a nespresso machine... The Sage is probably a bit of a half way house in that it will require less effort to get good coffee, but will not be nearly as repairable/configurable as the Classic in the long run.


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

I'm on my second Gaggia in 15yrs my first was the old and discontinued Evolution - basically the not so desirable 2015-2018 Gaggia Classic in different clothes, it taught me a lot, despite it being flawed, I'm currently using a Classic Pro.

Personally I'd try for a fully modded pre-2015 Classic, if you can stick with it on the odd occasion when you burn through 500g of beans with barely anything drinkable to show for your labours while you're learning it'll make great coffee for years and still be fixable or saleable at the end of it. I love mine, (most of the time, but a PID will fix that 😉), even though it's only for 4 coffees a day, there's something about the ritual I like, plus I have a weakness for things Italian, so am biased toward the Gaggia.

Happy hunting and I hope you enjoy whichever machine you eventually choose. Cheers, DG


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## woof woof (May 16, 2020)

Everyone... thank you all very much for your input as you have raised quite a number of issues I had only skimmed over. I really do appreciate your replies and those coffee ground pucks look rather good! The pucks that come out of my 20-30yr old Krups need to either be spooned out or left to dry.

I am sure I will have more questions but wanted to say many thanks!


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## woof woof (May 16, 2020)

So I am now anxiously waiting for a brand new Gaggia Classic to arrive - was due by end of this month but should arrive next week. I already have to hand Mr Shades opv and PID kits!!! Exciting times ahead ... and I need to get my post count up too!

Thanks, Mark GreenBean


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Just playing devils advocate here but wont fitting both those totally invalidate any warrenty you have?


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> Just playing devils advocate here but wont fitting both those totally invalidate any warrenty you have?


 Only if he sends back under warranty with them fitted.......


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## Skizz (Feb 10, 2020)

HDAV said:


> Only if he sends back under warranty with them fitted.......


 Exactly that. PID installation should be completely non-destructive. You'd probably want to clean up any thermal grease from the SSRs though, and any Sharpie scribbles on the connector shrouds. Bit of a giveaway otherwise! 😬


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## woof woof (May 16, 2020)

Yes I do understand, but will run one ... maybe 2 coffees before starting with the mods. How restrained is that! 😄


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## woof woof (May 16, 2020)

Funny but my first journey into looking at machines seems to have gone from Sage... to Gaggia... back to Sage (DTP)... back to Gaggia.... finally did have to go pull the trigger on something! Whilst waiting I now have mentally upgraded to lelit and now really want a Bianca, but think I really ought to learn a bit more about the process that the Gaggia will force on me. Ultimately many of the machines, if not all, can make "dam fine coffee (for you twin peaks fans) in the right hands. I just have run out of money to go straight to a Bianca, what with a little one (Niche) on its way in August!

Thanks all for your input again. Mark


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