# BE ratio, is my yield too high for double shot?



## Java_avaJ (Jun 9, 2019)

Hello, I'm using 12 grind size, 16g of coffee and using the double shot everything seems to taste fine for my morning cappuccino. The pressure is in the right range, though near the top, and the extraction time is about 8s for pre-infusion and 25s from first drip to end (that's ok isn't it?).

But yesterday I heard about ratios and weighed my coffee in the cup and found my 16g had yielded 61g of liquid. That's way too high isn't it? If so, what should I do?

Thanks


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Grind finer..


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## Java_avaJ (Jun 9, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> Grind finer..


 The reason I'm grinding so coarse is because the pressure went too high when it was finer, should I have altered something else?

Out of interest, on a double, should the yield still be 1:2 ish?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

How does it taste


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Java_avaJ said:


> The reason I'm grinding so coarse is because the pressure went too high when it was finer, should I have altered something else?
> 
> Out of interest, on a double, should the yield still be 1:2 ish?


 Good starting point....


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## Java_avaJ (Jun 9, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> How does it taste


 It tastes fine... but maybe it could taste better, hence the question


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## Java_avaJ (Jun 9, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> Good starting point....


 So it should weigh 16g x 2, not x4 since it's a double? Actually perhaps the single basket won't hold 16g

Does grinding finer cause less yield? And how do I correct the greater pressure caused by the finer grind?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Java_avaJ said:


> So it should weigh 16g x 2, not x4 since it's a double? Actually perhaps the single basket won't hold 16g
> 
> Does grinding finer cause less yield? And how do I correct the greater pressure caused by the finer grind?


 By yield you mean weight, then of course if the shot runs for the same length of time you will get less liquid out.

Pressure is not controlled by how fine you grind by the setting of the expansion valve in the machine, if it's adjustable.


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## Java_avaJ (Jun 9, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> By yield you mean weight, then of course if the shot runs for the same length of time you will get less liquid out.
> 
> Pressure is not controlled by how fine you grind by the setting of the expansion valve in the machine, if it's adjustable.


 Isn't weight the measure by which yield is measured?

The Barista Express manual says that pressure is controlled by the fineness of the grind and/or the quantity of coffee in the PF

The BE has no user accessible expansion valve, orat least the manual makes no reference to one.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Java_avaJ said:


> 1. Isn't weight the measure by which yield is measured?
> 
> 2. The Barista Express manual says that pressure is controlled by the fineness of the grind and/or the quantity of coffee in the PF
> 
> The BE has no user accessible expansion valve, orat least the manual makes no reference to one.


 1. Weight is the measure by which weight is measured the ratios we are talking about are weight of coffee and weight of espresso output.

2. The knowledge of those writing the BE manual knows no limits...who would I be to argue with that level of skill and experience.

3. Amazing, then either the expansion valve is not adjustable although I have only come across those that are not easy to adjust, because you have to open them up and the adjustment is very coarse., or they don't want you playing about with it.

Heres the thing, whether people say does it taste good or not, whatever the manual says etc.. etc.. A good starting point to work from is. 18g (or whatever) of coffee in 36g of espresso out in about 30-35 seconds......even if the pressure goes high for now, so what. Then find out how to adjust the pressure and readjust the grind to get the same result.....Or, do what's in the sage book...it's your choice.

P.S. You might want to think about the fact that those sage indiciduals writing the sage manual, were probably in school shorts when I did the top level design for the Izzo Alex Duetto (or perhaps starting secondary school).


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## Java_avaJ (Jun 9, 2019)

Out of interest, do you have, or have had a Barista Express, or is your Sage machine similar?

I'm more than happy to believe you instead of my manual, it's just until today I only had the manual to go by ?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I have not had the good fortune to own any Sage machines and with any luck I expect this state of affairs to continue.


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## Java_avaJ (Jun 9, 2019)

Ah, OK, I thought I'd posted on the Sage forum, sorry, I guess I expected someone who not only knew coffee but the particular machine I was asking about to answer. That you don't know the machine and I don't know much about making expresso explains our misunderstandings.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Java_avaJ said:


> Out of interest, do you have, or have had a Barista Express, or is your Sage machine similar?
> 
> I'm more than happy to believe you instead of my manual, it's just until today I only had the manual to go by ?


 Ive owned a Sage machine , basic principles of making good coffee apply across all the machines.

The Sage manual talks abotu alot of visual clues, pressure gauge , when the coffee drops, coz there is no one there to hold your hand and taste with you.

Try grinding finer , got to a 1:3 ratio taste, evaulaute, grind finer again try at 1:2 ratio, what you are doing here is changing the strength of the coffee you make .

Don't worry about "what is a double shot m what should it be" find something you like the taste off.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Java_avaJ said:


> Ah, OK, I thought I'd posted on the Sage forum, sorry, I guess I expected someone who not only knew coffee but the particular machine I was asking about to answer. That you don't know the machine and I don't know much about making expresso explains our misunderstandings.


 What you are trying to do is not machine specific , sage doesnt work any different to most pump machines..


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## Java_avaJ (Jun 9, 2019)

OK, I'll try that. But do you know if using the double shot button still means that 16g of coffee should give 32g of coffee in the cup, or, being a double shot, should I expect twice the volume of coffee in the cup, i.e. 64g?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Java_avaJ said:


> OK, I'll try that. But do you know if using the double shot button still means that 16g of coffee should give 32g of coffee in the cup, or, being a double shot, should I expect twice the volume of coffee in the cup, i.e. 64g?


 Ignore what the button does, stop it manually, those pre programmed buttons on the machine are not going to be just give you tasty coffee or even deliver a consistent amount in the cup.

Stop the shot by weight , not by what the button does.

You getting tied up in "double shot" there is no such thing, you are using a double basjet , what that makes in terms of weight or volume is based on how you like your coffee not what the button does...


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## Iris (Oct 29, 2018)

,The reason you are getting a double espresso weighing 61g is because the barista express is designed to deliver a volume weight of 60ml for a double espresso, basically the volume a traditional Italian espresso would be, 30ml per espresso 30ml of espresso basically weights 30grams so your machine is performing as it should and delivering the correct pre-measured volumes.

If you enjoy the taste of this then great continue using the pre-measured single and double shot buttons, If you want to try something different play around with ratios an d see what tastes best to you, if aiming for a 1;2 ratio try 18g of ground coffee and final extraction weight of double espresso weight as 36g, you might find you don't like the taste of this you just need to find what works for you.

if you press the double espresso button you can stop the flow at any point, by pressing the double espresso button again once you have reached the desired weight of coffee.

I was happy enough with the preset volume buttons, but you can programme whatever weight of coffee suits once you have worked out what tastes best for you.


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## Java_avaJ (Jun 9, 2019)

Stop﻿ the shot ﻿by weight , not by what the butto﻿n d﻿oes﻿,

Aah, ok. That makes sense.

I've just reread part of the manual and it says the double shot button is supposed to give 60g of coffee in the cup, but it is programmable so I could make it give the 1:2 or 1:3 you mention, just to make morning coffee easier, would yhat be right?


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## Java_avaJ (Jun 9, 2019)

Iris said:


> The reason you are getting a double espresso weighing 61g is because the barista express is designed to deliver a volume weight of 60ml for a double espresso, basically the volume a traditional Italian espresso would be, 30ml per espresso 30ml of espresso basically weights 30grams so your machine is performing as it should and delivering the correct pre-measured volumes.
> 
> If you enjoy the taste of this then great continue using the pre-measured single and double shot buttons, If you want to try something different play around with ratios an d see what tastes best to you, if aiming for a 1;2 ratio try 18g of ground coffee and final extraction weight of double espresso weight as 36g, you might find you don't like the taste of this you just need to find what works for you.
> 
> ...


 Perfect, that's very clear, thank you.


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## Java_avaJ (Jun 9, 2019)

Sorry, just thought of a follow up question: if my current 61ml coffee takes 25 seconds or so, if I stop the extraction when I have 32ml (to try a 1:2 ratio) won't my extraction time be too short?


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## Java_avaJ (Jun 9, 2019)

Actually, to answer my own question I suppose extraction time isn't linear with regards to yield and if it were too short a time I'd need to grind more finely, would that be right?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Java_avaJ said:


> Actually, to answer my own question I suppose extraction time isn't linear with regards to yield and if it were too short a time I'd need to grind more finely, would that be right?


 shots can range between 25 seconds plus ive had 40 seconds plus shots tasty.

it's personal preference


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## SamCee (Dec 30, 2020)

This has been an exceedingly helpful discussion. Thanks for preserving. I'd love to know how you got on and where you've landed?

Just got my machine for Christmas and was confused by consistently getting 60g from the double button.


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