# How do I do a full descale?



## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

Machine had been sitting for just under a year from previous owner on the countertop with tapwater from a hardwater area left inside it.

I fixed all the leaks on the machine I had previously, its running very well. However I am suffering from lack of steam power, it has consistent steam pressure but it is not as powerful as it should be.










I have heard bad things about running descaler through HX machines. I have heard it is much better to take them apart to descale them. Can anyone show me how to do this or possibly if you are local to help me do this in person?

I have a Gaggia TS, and I live in Bedford, Bedfordshire which is about an hour or so out of london. Its near Milton keynes and luton.

Please and thanks! I can pay for your fuel costs and hopefully make you a coffee by the time were done.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

Bought some Calcinet and bought some filters for my machine. Lets see how it goes.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Can you make that picture a bit bigger please?


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

jonc said:


> Can you make that picture a bit bigger please?


I could try if needed. How much bigger did you want it?


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## The resurrection (Mar 9, 2015)

Picture size is fine is that spring from a car shocker


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

You will not know how badly the boiler is scaled unless you remove it. If you are going to do that, then I think (others will confirm) that the right way to do it is immerse the whole thing in a water bath using citric acid or the likes for several days. there are plenty of threads here on restoration projects, so hopefully others will chip in.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> You will not know how badly the boiler is scaled unless you remove it. If you are going to do that, then I think (others will confirm) that the right way to do it is immerse the whole thing in a water bath using citric acid or the likes for several days. there are plenty of threads here on restoration projects, so hopefully others will chip in.


Hmm will try and do that, It seems like the boiler is bolted into the bottom of the case though. Not sure how I would get to the bolts. I'll have a look for one of those threads though.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

The boiler sits in a metal bracket that is held with two bolts through the base of the M/ch. As dfk41 said, it would pay you to remove the boiler, remove the heating element to give you a good view of the inside and enable you to do a full de scale. You can also inspect other components while you have it dismantled.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

El carajillo said:


> The boiler sits in a metal bracket that is held with two bolts through the base of the M/ch. As dfk41 said, it would pay you to remove the boiler, remove the heating element to give you a good view of the inside and enable you to do a full de scale. You can also inspect other components while you have it dismantled.


Hmm, what sort of tools will I be needing to get the boiler and heating element out?

Sorta nervous about taking it all apart by myself as it will have a few years of scale build up. I definitely smell scale/calcium when I turn on the steamwand. A very dusty sort of smell.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If you are unsure, then either see if you can find a local forum member who fancies helping, or look for a coffee engineer in your area and let them do it, but it will not be cheap! Look for an expanded parts diagram for your machine and if you have a go yourself, take plenty of photos before you take or loosen anything. Is this your machine, if so, here is a manual and a parts diagram

http://www.stevenheaton.co.uk/blog_coffee/?p=169


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

Cana said:


> Hmm, what sort of tools will I be needing to get the boiler and heating element out?
> 
> Sorta nervous about taking it all apart by myself as it will have a few years of scale build up. I definitely smell scale/calcium when I turn on the steamwand. A very dusty sort of smell.


Hi Cana,

I recently undertook a restoration project on a similar sized machine, you can have a look at the mistakes I made (and learn from them) in my thread...

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=21961

I'd suggest placing an order for all the required seals/gaskets and o-rings to replace the current ones first, you'll need to check out the specifications on a proper manual/diagram. Make sure you take photos and/or draw diagrams to help you put it all back together!

T.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> If you are unsure, then either see if you can find a local forum member who fancies helping, or look for a coffee engineer in your area and let them do it, but it will not be cheap! Look for an expanded parts diagram for your machine and if you have a go yourself, take plenty of photos before you take or loosen anything. Is this your machine, if so, here is a manual and a parts diagram
> 
> http://www.stevenheaton.co.uk/blog_coffee/?p=169


Yup thats my machine, Steven Heaton is the most knowledgable about Gaggia TS that I have been able to find online,

he sold me my PF and several other bits, unfortunately hard to contact though.

Hmm, if there was anyone local-ish I would ask them. If you are willing Carajillo you are about 2 hours away by car journey as I am only in Bedford. However this looks like it will take a few hours to fully descale. I could definitely pay for your petrol/ pizza fees should you be willing to help. Unfortunately I am a little out of range of any engineer that is willing to help, they told me they would have to charge me extra to come up from london etc. I would be looking at about £150 on the small side for an engineer. Would love the learning experience I would get by taking it all apart.

Thanks Tom! I will look through your thread some more. Your machine was in a really rough state, you did a great job with it. Hopefully mine wont be that bad inside. It does make coffee/steam/ hotwater so shouldnt be too bad. But steam does come out slightly weaker than it should and it smells of scaling.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

just take a load of photos as you take it apart, then it is just a matter of getting a bin with water and descale in it and submerging boiler and pipes in it.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

coffeechap said:


> just take a load of photos as you take it apart, then it is just a matter of getting a bin with water and descale in it and submerging boiler and pipes in it.


^I can do that, but can I also remove the copper pipework and bathe that with the boiler?

I'll have another look in the morning at around 5:30 before work and post some pictures of the entire machines layout. Would like to see if one of the side panels can come off for better visuals and easier removal of the boiler.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

all the panels will come off that machine and yes descale all the pipe work


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

coffeechap said:


> all the panels will come off that machine and yes descale all the pipe work


Thanks bought a plastic storage container today to do it all. Will take loads of pictures etc.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

Not sure how I am going to do this. Took apart most of the machine, couldn't get the side panel off and the parts connected to steamwand are very stubborn and I cant undo the nut. Just put it all back together again (semi-loosely finger tight) Will take it apart again tomorrow and see how it is but I think its a little too stuck. All this is a little in the way of the boiler and I dont want to force them too much just incase something breaks.

Having a look at Doctor Espresso, they are a cafe in london that repair vintage Gaggia/ antique gaggia. They do commercial and domestic. I will call them again tomorrow, but they have my number and told me they will call me. Turns out they are about an hour and 30 minutes away via driving. I'm looking to take it apart with them and descale it so I know how exactly and to write notes for myself, atleast that's the idea.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

ughhh!! boilers on its last leg... its impossible to grab with my monkeywrench as its too long and workspace is very little. Its this one last pipe (The one water goes into the boiler I believe)


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## JohnPrime (Nov 2, 2014)

Did anyone mention the wisdom of taking lots of pix?









Having taken my old Bezzera to bits, incuding splitting the boiler, I'd agree with most of the advice so far. I have experience of exactly one refurb, but a few things I learned:


Be very careful undoing pipe fixings. Use counter-torque if you can. This is all to avoid twisting the Cu tubing, which is expensive.

Change the relays if it's an old machiine. They're very cheap if you get them from Rapid or Farnell.

Consider buying a peristaltic pump (off the 'bay for ~£20 -- look for condensate pump). That way you can circulate citric acid through clagged-up pipes overnight.

If any of the wiring's looking a bit tired, replace it with silicone heatproof cable (Conrad.de do it).


Good luck!

And take pix as you go.

PS my Bezzera thread has some pictures of how bad a boiler can get.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

JohnPrime said:


> Did anyone mention the wisdom of taking lots of pix?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, but what do I do about that red cable in the front? It looks to be a wire that was shoved into the boiler and clamped shut by squeezing/bending the metal around it. I cant remove it but its easy to bend back the metal.

Its that top one with the white powder on it.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

Kalimaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....

Holding the heart of my machine!

However the bit with the Triangle piece of brass/copper has some wires attached and they wont let go~ Also all my allen keys are bending trying to remove this piece.. I suppose its the heating coils etc~ Is it safe to put everything here in the water save the wire hanging out?

Let me know guys!


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## customcoffee (Jan 9, 2013)

i think it would be more of a hassle trying to descale the boiler with the element still bolted in, your going to have abit of a nightmare rinsing it through properly, plus you wont really know how much you have actually descaled.

You've come this far, i would probably suggest trying to get hold of some decent keys, or even a ratchet. Maybe even try some penetrating oil/ WD40 on the bolts and leave over night.

Do you have access to a vice? if you go down the route of submerging with the element still bolted in, it wont do it any harm as long as you dont get any of the solution in or around the two spade connector ends. If solution gets in there you may get a short in the element, if you fully submerge it you definately will.

Take your time and explore some other ways of getting the bolts out is the best way to go in my opinion


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

customcoffee said:


> i think it would be more of a hassle trying to descale the boiler with the element still bolted in, your going to have abit of a nightmare rinsing it through properly, plus you wont really know how much you have actually descaled.
> 
> You've come this far, i would probably suggest trying to get hold of some decent keys, or even a ratchet. Maybe even try some penetrating oil/ WD40 on the bolts and leave over night.
> 
> ...


 Got one of the bolts off, but hows this for now? I could try WD40, and I do have a small vice. I also have a rachet but none of my bits actually fit onto the bolts.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

Woops not sure how my other machine slipped into the picture...


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

WD40 isn't likely to help releasing threads, it is only a water displacement product, you will need penetrating oil really.

Alternatively you could try heating/cooling the boiler/bolt to expand and contract the threads, you should take care with this though.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

TomBurtonArt said:


> WD40 isn't likely to help releasing threads, it is only a water displacement product, you will need penetrating oil really.
> 
> Alternatively you could try heating/cooling the boiler/bolt to expand and contract the threads, you should take care with this though.


I'll attempt to sweet talk the bolts again. Probably wont be willing to risk the heating/cooling thing as I dont have anything but a blowtorch that could do that.. and that is a little too hot for copper to deal with.

The copper is going super shiny, very happy about that.


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

I'd just use boiling water in your bucket and an ice cube to hold on the bolt.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

TomBurtonArt said:


> I'd just use boiling water in your bucket and an ice cube to hold on the bolt.


Also a future note, Calcinet burns quite badly so don't stick any part of your skin into calcinet for longer than a few seconds. On the plus side, it cleaned my rings though~ I'll give that a try but the bucket is pretty full at the moment, any higher and might be at a higher risk of tipping into the water. Will syphon some out.


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

You could always take it out and return it to the descale bath after removing the element. I found using jars was a great way to descale individual parts. The element on mine fit perfectly into an empty jar.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

Unfortunately boiling and ice cubes did not do anything, I did however pick up the boiler and empty it out a few times through alternate parts so water/ scaling pours out so it doesn't settle anywhere. The boilers looking like a brand new penny.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> You will not know how badly the boiler is scaled unless you remove it. If you are going to do that, then I think (others will confirm) that the right way to do it is immerse the whole thing in a water bath using citric acid or the likes for several days. there are plenty of threads here on restoration projects, so hopefully others will chip in.


How many days would you recommend for this boiler? As it is quite small. Its in Calcinet + water at the moment. Will leave it in there overnight and check up in the morning.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

Looks brand new!







How much longer do you guys think? Still cant get bolts off so will have to clean it blind.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Perhaps you could take it into a local engineering firm. I am sure they would take those bolts out for you. it is such a shame to have gone this far and not remove the element


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> Perhaps you could take it into a local engineering firm. I am sure they would take those bolts out for you. it is such a shame to have gone this far and not remove the element


Yea I agree, it was probably very scaled up in there, would love to see. Even the pipes were white and crusted. Unfortunately can't do too much today as its my birthday and we have a few plans at awkward times. I'll leave it in solution till end of day and continue pouring it out of various pipes. Should get everything.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Did you immerse the boiler totally in Calcinet ? including the terminals ??

If you do not remove the heating element much of your efforts will be wasted.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

El carajillo said:


> Did you immerse the boiler totally in Calcinet ? including the terminals ??
> 
> If you do not remove the heating element much of your efforts will be wasted.







Boom~ fully working machine.

Haha I did it!!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Congratulations - you must be pleased!


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> Congratulations - you must be pleased!


Very pleased! Thank you everyone for your help! Best 21st birthday ever. Managed to not break my machine. haha


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Now just get your grinder sorted


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> Now just get your grinder sorted


Yup just need to send over the money to Coffeechap. We are sorting out grinder now.

A mazzer SJ without the hopper. However I would like to get a lens hood for it. The grinder already has cleansweep mod.

Do you know of any good lens hoods online that are cheap that could hold enough beans to last me about 8 coffees?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Phot-R-58mm-Universal-Collapsible-Rubber-Multi-Lens-Hood-for-Wide-Angle-Lenses-/271395562751?pt=UK_Photography_CameraLenses_Lens_caps_hoods_adaptors_ET&hash=item3f306fa4ff


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

Bought the grinder! Thanks everyone for your help with my Gaggia TS. Successfully descaled entire machine, took everything apart, gave it a nice bath in Calcinet for about 48 hours roughly.

 Previous problems with machine, very low power to steamwand, and the smell of calcium was coming from the steam. Also had the occasional drip during steaming. Also had a leak from the anti-vac valve from the seal and from the top, and a leak from the copper pipe that lead to the steamwand itself. I have used ptfe tape to remedy those and tighten them and that fixed the leaks. The only leak that actually happen is 1-2 drops of water that sits on top of the anti-vac then evaporates before .2 bars of pressure when initially starting the machine, This is a common fault with Gaggia machines as they get older and not really preventable.

To remedy my horrible shots I have finally bought a grinder! Thanks to everyone who gave me advice and warnings on here. I will continue to be active on here and hopefully get to restore more of these Gaggia machines as I found it quite fun. My only warning to anyone attempting this with Calcinet, is wash your hands immediately after you reach into the solution to adjust your boiler to sit properly.. Worst case scenario that I felt, you get a moderate burning feeling nothing too bad though. Cold water removes the burning feeling.

All in all a very good 21st birthday.

Thanks!


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

Actually... Now its completely fixed.





 (fixed)

I can now steam a full jug of milk in a few seconds, perfectly. Perfect vortex all the way down.


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