# Nutating



## kikapu

Have noticed nutating mentioned a lot here recently and had it recommended to me since changing my grinder from an MC2 to MSJ to sort out some issues I was having regarding fast flow, after trying to find the definitive guide to it there seems to be lots varying ways of integrating it (lightly tamp, nutate, polish. Nutate, tamp, polish. nutate, polish) so just wondering what everybody routine looks like and where the nutating fits in?

There seems to be a real lack of videos too seen this one recommended 

__
https://flic.kr/p/4175453850
 but this guy looks like he mashes that puck? Maybe its deceptive and he isnt putting any weight on it but when I tried nutating with any pressure I would always get channeling!!

After about 13 shots last night (not drinking them) and either getting no flow or twice the amount was aiming for I got two out of my last 3 shots in the right ball park this is how I did it;

1. Fill portafilter as well distributed as possible from doser

2. Lower tamper slowly onto coffee then wiggle slightly (like in the above video)

3. Then hold the top of the tamper and wiggle in a nutating motion with no downward pressure (amazingly this compacts the coffee really well)

4. After step 3 Tamper should be level, lightly tamp

5. Polish

6. Pray!!

Remains to be seen if this continues to work but would appreciate any comments and insight of how you incorporate it!


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## forzajuve

Im also experimenting with nutating. The main advantage I can see being that it compresses the grinds more but with less pressure applied compared to a straight down tamp. This should help due to reduced risk of puck fracture and a coarser grind. I am working on two different methods to see which works best for me:

1. Hold top of tamper, nutate without any downward pressure. Then light straight tamp and polish to add compaction.

2. Normal nutate with light pressure to compact and distribute in one move, polish to finish.

Both methods with grind straight into basket out of the Major and no other steps, finger swipe etc.

Early days yet in development but I am favouring method 1 for now. With method 2 I seem to get off centre cones, although both seem to give better results than just a straight light tamp. With both the grind setting is the same and for a Mazzer, quite a bit coarser on the grind setting.


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## Mrboots2u

Another clip for you to consider , skip to a minute in for his version of it . What kind of tamper are you using ?


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## kikapu

forzajuve said:


> Im also experimenting with nutating. The main advantage I can see being that it compresses the grinds more but with less pressure applied compared to a straight down tamp. This should help due to reduced risk of puck fracture and a coarser grind. I am working on two different methods to see which works best for me:
> 
> 1. Hold top of tamper, nutate without any downward pressure. Then light straight tamp and polish to add compaction.
> 
> 2. Normal nutate with light pressure to compact and distribute in one move, polish to finish.
> 
> Both methods with grind straight into basket out of the Major and no other steps, finger swipe etc.
> 
> Early days yet in development but I am favouring method 1 for now. With method 2 I seem to get off centre cones, although both seem to give better results than just a straight light tamp. With both the grind setting is the same and for a Mazzer, quite a bit coarser on the grind setting.


Your number one is basically the same as mine my work in progress routine. Not saying you copied me or anything!!


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## kikapu

Mrboots2u said:


> Another clip for you to consider , skip to a minute in for his version of it . What kind of tamper are you using ?


Seen it before







using a Torr 58.4 Convex in a 15g VST basket.

I would have thought the light tamp to start negates some of the nutating effect or you have to nutate a bit harder at least I guess?


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## Mrboots2u

Ok no worries , I find the trap Torrs easier to tamp with but shouldn't make any discernible difference. Why don't you do a clip?


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## kikapu

Mrboots2u said:


> Ok no worries , I find the trap Torrs easier to tamp with but shouldn't make any discernible difference. Why don't you do a clip?


 I'm shy









Yeah I might just do that especially if I struggle the next time I try to pull a shot.

Think thats one thing this place seems to be lacking is video content!


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## garydyke1

I find nutating completely unnecessary tbh.


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## Mrboots2u

kikapu said:


> I'm shy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I might just do that especially if I struggle the next time I try to pull a shot.
> 
> Think thats one thing this place seems to be lacking is video content!


Well it's up to the members to the video content , there is some though, so don't be shy just make one . You can tell a lot more from a clip than a description .


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## Mrboots2u

garydyke1 said:


> I find nutating completely unnecessary tbh.


That's coz you have a massive mazzer ( apparently it brings all the barista to the yard , as song goes....) and are super Gary D.


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## garydyke1

Mrboots2u said:


> That's coz you have a massive mazzer ( apparently it brings all the barista to the yard , as song goes....) and are super Gary D.


It's not how big , it's what you do with it . The Doser does the distribution , rapid thwacking ensures clump free .


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## Daren

forzajuve said:


> Im also experimenting with nutating. The main advantage I can see being that it compresses the grinds more but with less pressure applied compared to a straight down tamp. This should help due to reduced risk of puck fracture and a coarser grind. I am working on two different methods to see which works best for me:
> 
> 1. Hold top of tamper, nutate without any downward pressure. Then light straight tamp and polish to add compaction.
> 
> 2. Normal nutate with light pressure to compact and distribute in one move, polish to finish.
> 
> Both methods with grind straight into basket out of the Major and no other steps, finger swipe etc.
> 
> Early days yet in development but I am favouring method 1 for now. With method 2 I seem to get off centre cones, although both seem to give better results than just a straight light tamp. With both the grind setting is the same and for a Mazzer, quite a bit coarser on the grind setting.


Your version 1 works best for me. It's worth persevering with it as once mastered provides great consistency.


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## Daren

garydyke1 said:


> I find nutating completely unnecessary tbh.


I just can't get consistency without it using my grinder. It's probably down to my slapdash technique, but life is to short when I need a coffee.

Nutating stops the channelling for me.


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## kikapu

ok looks like my method might be on the right track! Will keep at and probably do a video.

But maybe also I need to thwack my doser a bit harder and not be so limp wristed about it!!


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## Kyle548

I'm having a massive problem with nutating.

I find that when I nutate the puck is flattened and from there I'm unable to tamp because puck coheasion is so high.

I'm also not getting a cone at all, just globbs with the pour.


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## Charliej

Sounds like you are nutating with too much pressure Kyle.


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## Kyle548

Charliej said:


> Sounds like you are nutating with too much pressure Kyle.


I tried it with different pressures but I always get the end result that I can't feel the grounds move when I tamp.


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## Daren

I only use the weight of the tamper to nutate. The pressure is applied after the nutate.

What shape tamper are you using? This will probably have an effect.


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## Kyle548

It's a flat knock 58.4.


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## Mrboots2u

Kyle548 said:


> I'm having a massive problem with nutating.
> 
> I find that when I nutate the puck is flattened and from there I'm unable to tamp because puck coheasion is so high.
> 
> I'm also not getting a cone at all, just globbs with the pour.


Waht pressure are you applying after you nutate , I'd not mean measured , but is it a hard tamp or light . The grounds should come out pretty fluffy from the magnum and well distributed , so a quick nutate and light isn tamp should do the trick ( as opposed to say 30 lbs etc )


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## Kyle548

Mrboots2u said:


> Waht pressure are you applying after you nutate , I'd not mean measured , but is it a hard tamp or light . The grounds should come out pretty fluffy from the magnum and well distributed , so a quick nutate and light isn tamp should do the trick ( as opposed to say 30 lbs etc )


mm, Pretty lightly, I do find that the magnum doesnt like a heavy tamp at all.

Lots of high quality fines make the pucks very coheasive.

I'm just having trouble finding the exaxt ballance between nutate and tamp i guess.


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## Charliej

I would suggest that the tamper might be the issue I remember Dave recommending a convex base for nutating I'll try with my Knock 58.4 heft and see how it goes.


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## garydyke1

convex base + trapez sides = nutation ok

convex base + straight sides = nutation restricted


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## michaelg

Yup I have the trapeze sides and convex base and I nutate and it works well. Can't say I always have a flawless pour mind you! Yesterday I was thinking , 'Hmm, maybe I should have the trapez tamper for nutating and then a flat one with XS handle for the tamp itself. I think it was just my brain conjuring up new ways to justify buying more shiny coffee toys but my wife seemed almost convinced!


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## kikapu

Looks like a new tamper might be on the cards here too!









Well I might give it till the weekend to see if I can actually sort my technique rather than just buy a new toy for the sake of it!


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## Charliej

I don't find it to hard to nutate with my Torr 58.4 convex the none trap version, after Dave demonstrated using his Goldfinger.


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## kikapu

Right had a couple of practice shots tonight and were in the right ballpark (havent had this in back to back shots since the new grinder) certainly not running excessively fast first shot was a bit too much liquid the second which I film after adjusted the grind finer was about 23g out in 27 when should have been 25g.

Left the grinder set as it is to see if I can repeat similar output next time. But was well chuffed, tasted pretty good too









Anyway here's the vid feel free to laugh mock use as a sleep aid etc and apologies for all the sniffing!


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## Mrboots2u

garydyke1 said:


> convex base + trapez sides = nutation ok
> 
> convex base + straight sides = nutation restricted


And that's numberwang


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## forzajuve

Just to return with update. Getting massively more consistent and better pours through the naked with nutating now. Also picked up a Motta curved tamper to try one out, forgot how nice these tampers are for the money having donated my previously flat one. Also an improvement and seems to compact a bit more than with a flat base so the grind can be loosened a notch.

All I would say is that if you haven't give it a go then you must, this technique is here to stay


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## garydyke1

If there is a tangible improvement in the cup then its worth the effort. Im suprised the major-e isnt doing a decent job of distribution in the first instance though.


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## forzajuve

garydyke1 said:


> If there is a tangible improvement in the cup then its worth the effort. Im suprised the major-e isnt doing a decent job of distribution in the first instance though.


Although the Major is still bedding in (just over 200 shots to date) I think the main advantage is that you can grind coarser, for me that is almost 2cm on the Mazzer dial, which I'm sure you can appreciate what that means. The result is not even the slightest hint of clumps, even though still bedding in and its on demand. Additionally despite feeling the tamper down around the edges with a flat I would still get a wonky cone every 2/3 pours. They are now dead central with this technique and every time.

Now I know the above doesn't mean better tasting shots out right, but it does mean consistent shots. Just tapping into the sweet spot now so the hope is once there I can replicate my best shots but every day, bar the usual tiny daily grind adjustment.

Also I have found now I have honed the technique it is quicker than a flat tamp. The reason being that rather than feeling and adjusting the tamp pressure around to get dead straight and flat, I let the weight of the tamper do this for me by just nutating and every time seems to be spot on.


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## garydyke1

Video video video (or it didnt happen) ; )


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## forzajuve

Will see if I can sort something, can you video with your phone in your mouth?


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## lookseehear

I pretty much exclusively nutate now. I find my shots are more consistent and extract more evenly. I probably differ slightly in that I actually use quite a lot of pressure to actually redistribute the coffee in the basket while I'm doing it. Have a look at Matt Perger's WBC routine (





) - I probably use a little more force than he does.

What this means to me is that I don't need to worry if the pile of grounds is slightly off centre - no swiping, tapping, WDT etc etc. If you've been trying nutating maybe try with a bit more force and see what happens (you'll need to back off the grind a bit). I sort of spiral into the centre and give a little polish at the end.


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## Eyedee

Because he's not grinding direct into the basket the grinds get a chance to settle when he's almost imperceptibly shaking the portafilter to level them. His nutation only looks to be just once round with the tamper, very lightly then again a light tamp.

The funnel type thing that he uses to get the grinds in looks like a cocktail shaker lid but whatever it is it works, no mess, no spillage.

I've been nutating since the arrival of the Mignon so I watched this with interest, does anyone actually know what the funnel thing is as this method would be perfect to counteract clumping.

Ian


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## jeebsy

View attachment 4597


I grind into the thing on the right which is a coconut tub from Pret and then use a metal camera hood cover on my PF as a funnel. They're a couple of quid on eBay


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## kikapu

I am sure he used a jam funnel


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## garydyke1

It is a jam funnel, I actually own one and they dont hold fines! anti-static somehow!?


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## kikapu

garydyke1 said:


> It is a jam funnel, I actually own one and they dont hold fines! anti-static somehow!?


Avaliable at all good jam funnel shops? Did it make any difference to your shots/extraction


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## garydyke1

I dunno with regard to coffee , I don't use it for that , but it makes good jam . I'll need an EK for a conclusive test


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## kikapu

Ah well at least its fit for purpose then!

I want to maintain dosing into the PF really do want to start to add back in extra faff!! Think I will wait till I have a larger VST and new Espresso machine and naked porta filter then go from there!!


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## kikapu

garydyke1 said:


> I'll need an EK for a conclusive test


 I know what to get you for Christmas then!!


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## garydyke1

I did a couple of back to back shots today. Both 20g dose, didnt touch grind setting, knowing full well it probably needed tightening up a little. Machine was only on for 12 mins , so group not fully hot.

Shot one , dosed into basket, distributed in little bit in circular motion leave a slight central mound, normal tamp and polish.

27 seconds gave me 2 x 17.5g. Taste was horridly under-extracted, this coffee was tasting awesome yesterday at the same setting but 2 x 20g in 35 seconds. so conditions have changed, hence needing a grind tweek.

Anyway for science I left as it was and then fixed time and repeated but using nutation, matt Perger style 'cept fairly firm.

27 seconds gave me 2 x 17.8g. Taste was a touch better (perhaps) but not much in it. This shot started much slower but sped-up rapidly before the end. The previous non-nutation shot although started quicker it remained fairly constant until the very end. The 2nd shot had more mottling on the surface.

Something which occured to me was how open to interpretation nutating is, its pretty unrepeatable . Perhaps a count of nutations should be fixed and also pressure, however these are new variables I could do without.


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## kikapu

Yeah I think you are right sometimes I have got carried away with my nutating and loose track of how many nuts I have done then I end up with much less output.


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## kikapu

Havent pulled a sot since Sunday/Monday but had a chance to have a go this morning first shot dosed into the basket did my usual light rotations just tamper weight then tamped with light-medium pressure 15g in 26g out in about 20seconds puck looked like it had some channeling put it in milk for other half. Second one I did a little a amount of NSEW to level off the grounds then tamped with about the same pressure as the first shot. The second shot poured fast and was almost the same amount of output in the same time however looking at the puck no channeling so the quick flow was just because of the different technique and the needed to be ground finer. Shot tasted ok was a bit sour as you would expect.

So nutating for me at the moment doesnt necessarily cure my shot issues and when I start using my new machine with larger VST will try to just tamp straight onto the top of the coffee rather than introducing nutating straight away as its just another variable that would be hard to repeat every time. However am sure will drop back to it at the very least to see if there is any improvement for me in the cup or if I am still struggling for repeatability.


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## garydyke1

Try coarser grind + normal non-nutation tamp but as heavy as you can whilst keeping perfect straight-down/vertical form .


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## Fevmeister

would you not make it finer if it was running at 20 seconds but with the same tamp as before, rather than a heavier one?


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## garydyke1

try both and report back : )


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