# sage vs breville BES900XL



## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

Are the Sage (by Heston) and the Breville BES900XL the same machine?

From what ive found so far the answer is yes (albeit made for 110v or 220v - but a transformer doesnt cost much), but the Breville BES900XL is easily available (used) for £500.... Half the cost of the Sage....

Anyone familiar with this?


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## Big O (Feb 25, 2014)

They are. Breville couldn't market these machines in the UK as it conflicts with our past time well known toasters.. So it's branded as Sage as such. I haven't read any stories of a 110v version being used in the UK though. There will definitely be a difference in heating element wattage, UK being higher and quicker heat up then other versions, but not sure how big a converter you'd need to support the current going through..


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

£40 at travis perkins! Lol


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

110v inverters are used for low wattage devices.

Plug a hairdryer into one and it goes pop.

Plug an espresso machine into one and similar scenario!

OK, you can get higher spec ones but you're looking at spending a couple of hundred pound and it will look like a breezeblock and weigh as much too.

Also, if the machine goes wrong do you have to send it back to USA to be fixed?

And finally, dont forget that if you buy it from USA you will be charged VAT @ 20% + other associated import fees.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

There are other differences.

BES900XL - no descale access

BES920UK - descale access

Good luck getting the older version descaled every 6-12 months....in America


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

A site tranformer (yes the size of a breeze block) but would do the trick... £50

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-3KVA-SITE-TRANSFORMER-110V-TWIN-OUTLET-16-AMP-BRAND-NEW-/360917342906?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item5408599aba

Not that that solves any other issues.... but the price difference is astounding....

Is it really that hard to take the machine apart to descale it? (genuine question)

I've only had a gaggia classic before now, but that things super easy to completely strip down... Is there a particular difference that means you have no boiler access or something?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

bongo......you are dreaming mate! I am not being rude, just realistic. If you spend £500 on a coffee machine you would hope it will last a few years. The Sage combinations are untried in the UK and have an awful lot of complicated electronics on them, which combine to help present a simple machine capable of delivering a belting cuppa, but that said, also give a lot more to go wrong.

Save your money and buy something designed for and tried and tested in the UK. As has often been said, if you buy from BB, you get a full 2 year warranty provided by them, so you deal with them in the event of a claim. I know what I would rather do!


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

I voiced this just as an interest really, and it's getting some interesting responses...

I simply came across the machine this morning at £500 and thought.... "wait a minute that looks like the recent 'Sage Heston'".... but at half the price....

Other than noticing differences in input voltage being 110v or 220v (Aus and US etc) rather than 240v (UK) there aren't any stand out differences to warrent the price difference of £600 - especially as highlighted, a potential tranformer £50 means you'd have a working machine for £550. If it breaks after 2-3yrs, buy a new one... lol


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Fine, take the risk , don't descale the machine then! See if it lasts the 2-3 years performing well enough, hope the bottle water is very low TDS.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

why does everyone reply so aggressively/negatively? Too much caffiene....? lol

If the component breaks... there may be the potential of replacing it with the 'new' or 'UK' version... That said, i'm sure they were built with the same interest... still having 15000 coffees passing through them during the R&D etc to highlight the issues etc...

I just find this interesting...


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

You have to think Bongo that a lot of people on this forum have a lot of knowledge, proven a lot of the time, in coffee machines.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

bongo, Sage are not supporting mending machines in the UK and I believe they carry no spares. If everyone on here drives a variant of a Land Rover and you want a lada Nive, just go any buy it. Keep us updated with your progress as we would all be interested! I love your boundless enthusiasm though. If yopu are certain that your USA machine may last 2 to 3 years without the need to be repaired or descaled, then perhaps you can tell me the expected time and date of your death and I will pop to the bookies!


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> You have to think Bongo that a lot of people on this forum have a lot of knowledge, proven a lot of the time, in coffee machines.


I have no doubt. But that doesn't mean that the knowledge is always well presented. Often it is, which is great, but when looking for reasoned discussion (for the interested / un-knowledgable), some of the the blunt - unreasoned answers don't always help...



dfk41 said:


> bongo,....perhaps you can tell me the expected time and date of your death and I will pop to the bookies!


After my next couple of posts at a guess.... put a £5 on for me would you! lol


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Ha Bongo, email and forum postings are an awful medium to use. It is impossible to display the feeling in which you meant something, so often things come across as aggressive or misconstrued. I am sure everyone on here would wish you nothing but the best, but do not expect anyone to bless your thoughts as you set sail on the good ship Bongo, destined for stormy Sage coloured waters!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Just to give some balance to the discussion

there are a three or four sage owners on her , admittedly of the uk DB machines and one recently only of the barista express.

The people that have those machine rate them highly , but as a new machine here it is undetected with it durability, same as any other machine . I think if you buy here new from john Lewis you can get a good length gauge tee which should cover you .

This would only apply to new machines .

And for Clarity I don't have or have never used a sage machine

I would not recommend trying to convert a USA machine, if anything goes wrong with it you are stuck with it as it is , it is really not a good idea at all.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

and I believe (rumour has it) one of the sage dual boilers (4) has broken down!!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

For me, £500 is lot of money to take such a gamble on...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> and I believe (rumour has it) one of the sage dual boilers (4) has broken down!!


I see I have posted with my usual exceptional timing......


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## Big O (Feb 25, 2014)

Ooh do tell me more ol'chap


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

bongo said:


> I voiced this just as an interest really, and it's getting some interesting responses...
> 
> I simply came across the machine this morning at £500 and thought.... "wait a minute that looks like the recent 'Sage Heston'".... but at half the price....
> 
> Other than noticing differences in input voltage being 110v or 220v (Aus and US etc) rather than 240v (UK) there aren't any stand out differences to warrent the price difference of £600 - especially as highlighted, a potential tranformer £50 means you'd have a working machine for £550. If it breaks after 2-3yrs, buy a new one... lol


No it doesn't, you have to pay VAT at 20% and Import fees! Plus the shipping alone to the UK will be pricey.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> I see I have posted with my usual exceptional timing......


Please never mention my machines Boots.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> and I believe (rumour has it) one of the sage dual boilers (4) has broken down!!


Which one ? If it's the one I'm thinking of - it's now resolved (was a minor scale driven issue ) and the owner got given a free spare drip tray and an offer of a brand new replacement if not happy. Even more reason to ensure you can and do descale often .


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

if there was a fire caused by a US import machine, run on a step down transformer, of which there are a few types, methods of stepping down the voltage, cheap and expensive ones....would the insurance pay out? Or what if someone was killed by said machine?

Does an appliance designed for the North American market, called a different name, inherit CE approval, just because it's made by the same company, or does it specifically need to have CE approval for the voltage it's designed for in this country.

if the 110V transformer is of the cheaper autotransformer type, you may often get nuisance tripping on house RCD systems every time you plug it in or switch it on.

So many questions...is it really worth the trouble.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

Good points Dave...

To further the enquirey though. Given the skills and assumed resources of Sage's (Breville) R&D, can it really make the machine cost double for the UK market?

Even with Vat and import duty, it's still hundreds of pounds different...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

bongo said:


> Good points Dave...
> 
> To further the enquirey though. Given the skills and assumed resources of Sage's (Breville) R&D, can it really make the machine cost double for the UK market?
> 
> Even with Vat and import duty, it's still hundreds of pounds different...


Price in the USA and Aussie versus price in the uk has been debated to death on other sage threads , please have a look there , as I'm not sure there is much value in going over it again.....

The prices in the uk are what they are and they won't change to the equivalent USA price ( same as a lot of electrical goods )


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

The 2 models have differences other than the descale access, in it's Breville incarnation it was designed with input from coffee pros over in Australia and has been around for a few years now, Breville Australia do have a track record with Espresso machines in the Aussie market going back 20 years or more.

The electronics in the Sage are no more likely to break down than those on the Vesuvius, and as the technology used in the Sage is a very mature technology, PID, flow control etc all that has been done is use mass production methods to make savings, if you hand built the Sage with similar components in Italy and put it in a stainless steel box then it would be a very very expensive machine.

The differences between the 2 are the degree of flexibility the machine has in some of its settings as well as the descale access. The reason you are seeing the BES900XL being sold cheap is that it is now a discontinued model, with no support available in the UK.

To DFK, Sage themselves do carry some spares but the warranty and servicing work has been contracted out to Coffee Classics Direct who do hold stock of spares, and as standard the Warranty on the Sage is also like BB's 2 years which can be extended for up to 3 years if you buy from John Lewis.

Bongo, by the time you have imported the machine from the USA paid for shipping, then the 20% VAT on the purchase price and the shipping and the import duty also payable on the total cost inc shipping, bought a reliable transformer, and it is actually illegal to use those site transformers in domestic applications, plus whatever handling fee the shippers charge for collecting the import duty and VAT you are going to be arriving at around £800 and all for a machine that *CANNOT* be plumbed in.


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## kazemik (Nov 17, 2013)

Bongo - you do realise that the Sage cannot be plumbed in. I only mention as it was your argument in trying to renegotiate the price of the Brewtus after you purchased it.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

Charliej.... you da man!

Great reply thanks.... really clear


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

kazemik... (and anyone else)

This isn't a machine I'm ever looking to buy. My interest was:

a) whether this was the same machine

b) if the machine was the same - why the rebranding of Breville to Sage

c) the difference in cost

I then was interested ways of using one in the UK... why? Because it's been a slow day at work and I like learning and problem solving...


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

bongo said:


> kazemik... (and anyone else)
> 
> This isn't a machine I'm ever looking to buy. My interest was:
> 
> ...


Regarding the rebranding, Breville stuff sold in the UK is actually just using the name under license from the parent company which is Breville Australia, so when Breville Australia decided to bring the espresso machines, plus some other fancy kitchen gadgets to the UK they had to come up with another name, Sage is a wholly owned subsidiary of Breville Australia, but not having the infrastructure or brand presence in the UK yet they decided to contract out the servicing and warranty work to Coffee Classics Direct.

Regarding price differences as per usual with high end niche electrical and electronic equipment of any type the price will vary from country to country to country depending on local sales conditions, VAT style taxes etc but they usually seem to be, in the case of the Sage DB 1200 units of currency in the UK, Australia and the USA, that price in the USA will also be subject to the sales tax of the State in which one lives or one buys the machine, in Australia it has the 10% GST (goods and sales tax) included and here in the UK the 20% VAT included, doing business in the UK also seems to cost more than in the USA or Aus, plus the stupid (in my opinion) Heston endorsement ( which in the case of the coffee machines is just beyond funny as he serves Nespresso in his 3 star restaurant), etc etc.

You can level the same accusation at pretty much every product sold in all of these 3 countries, like anything made by Apple, Samsung, Sony (none of which anyone seems to moan about due to the country in which they're made !!!!!). Of course in some industries it's actually the other way round where stuff is cheaper here and more expensive there, it's just the nature of Global business they will charge whatever they think the customer will bear.


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## kazemik (Nov 17, 2013)

In that case, very good question indeed.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

A question which has been debated for a long time in the other Sage threads for sure.

To the OP, you need to find american prices for the BES920 specifically if you even want to start comparing. It has been discussed at much length on this forum and generally even if you came out a few quid cheaper it wouldn't be worth the hassle of importing.

For reference, this is the BES920 that you should be comparing the Sage to


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