# Citrus/Sour notes decrease 4 hours after grinding



## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

Hi, just curious if the age of ground coffee decreases citrus / sour notes before any other notes. I left the grounds after grinding for 4 hours and citrus / sour notes toned down compared to freshly ground brew earlier today. First of all, ever since I started trying new beans, citrus/sour seems to haunt me unless I go charcoal dark,- I am hypersensitive to these notes :/. I drink mine black. Always. Regardless







. So on with the story.

Ran out of coffee at work, so popped to local shop, lunchtime, got medium roast beans, which were roasted exactly 1 month ago. Was promised nutty and sweet on the label:


used hand burr grinder

glass cafetiere brew method, straight after grinding, stir and let brew for 6 min

Result: string citrus and sour notes


Came home:


ground some more beans (bodum bistro blade grinder)

left grounds for 4 hours in the grinder

double wall stainless steel cafetiere brew method, stir and let brew for 10 min

Result: finally can taste nutty and sweet, the citrus and sour have markedly decreased


I know there are many variables here but normally I don't see such a big difference in taste between glass or stainless steel, hand burr or blade, when I brew straight after grinding. What is the most likely contributor to the taste difference, in your opinion?


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

I'll pass on a suggestion given to me....

Try using 900g of water to 50g of coffee, if your cafetiere is large like mine, fine grind, leave it 40mins,.....a lot longer than 6 mins.

A lot depends on the ambient temps and draughts etc but Let the temp drop to say 60° before you plunge and pour if it cools too much in 40 mins

What do you taste now?


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

As you are already aware, the variables probably played a part in cup differences.

The obvious factor, that the coffee was ground and left to oxidise, somehow played a part, since you state that normally you can't taste much difference between the 2 apparatus. How the science works behind it, I have no idea.

It's always easier (and sometimes misleading) to find a hypothesis/theory to fit a certain result, but here is my guess to what accentuated the subtle differences.

1)grinders - one big factor here. Your burr grinder at work probably did a much better job of grinds size distribution. More uniform and less extreme in particle size spectrum. Simply put, your burr grinder had more of the "desired size" grinds, and less of boulders and dust (the 2 extremes on either sides of the spectrum - necessary in certain quantities but if too much, not good). So for your blade grinder, the opposite can be said. Less uniform and probably more coffee fines.

How did this contribute to the taste difference? Maybe the higher ratio of fines in the blade grinder allowed it to extract more (in relative comparison to burr grinder). I have no way of knowing if your 2 brews are under or over extracted. But in generalised terms, smaller particle size = higher extraction. And another generalised comment.. Under extracted coffee tend to accentuate sourness, and over extracted bitterness.

2) Caferiere - simply put, closer the water temp to boiling, the higher the extraction. Temperature is everything here. Single walled glass vs double wall stainless? I bet the SS upheld the original temp much better since it was insulated better.

How did this contribute to taste difference? Higher water temp = higher extraction = less chance of under extraction = less chance of sourness.

So my guess is that with the higher extraction at home (due to higher water temp and more fines) you felt less sourness in the cup.

If my hypothesis is void and water temp / extraction had nothing to do with it, then surely the higher surface area of coffee grinds from the blade grinder sped up the oxidation (aka staleness)


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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

grumpydaddy said:


> I'll pass on a suggestion given to me....
> 
> Try using 900g of water to 50g of coffee, if your cafetiere is large like mine, fine grind, leave it 40mins,.....a lot longer than 6 mins.
> 
> ...


Hi and sorry for delayed reply, was waiting for a perfect time for the experiment. So I did this:

450g of water and 25g of grounds, could not fit 900g of water into cafetiere. Freshly ground finer than usual (medium-fine) and immediately poured boiling water, stirred, closed the top, no plunge, set timer on for 40min. after 40 min plunge and pour.

Result: very sour with the hint of bitter lemon zest. I don't mind the bitter, but that acidity is annoying me







I get grapefruit, overripe, hey-like, hint of bitter, hint of black tea - if I were to use the terms from the wheel. Nowhere near sweet nutty or chocolate. Pretty much the same sour as I described before, but somewhat richer notes, notes I did not notice earlier, yet no nut and chocolate. Which makes me think that, on this occasion, those beans, produce no different result when brewed longer, finer grain. hmm... what was I supposed to taste?

so I get pretty much the same sour note, weather it's 6 or 40 min brew, burr or blade, medium-coarse or medium fine grind, steel or glass cafetiere. What does change the taste significantly is to let the grounds to oxidise. For those beans. interesting.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Beanedict said:


> Hi and sorry for delayed reply, was waiting for a perfect time for the experiment. So I did this:
> 
> 450g of water and 25g of grounds, could not fit 900g of water into cafetiere. Freshly ground finer than usual (medium-fine) and immediately poured boiling water, stirred, closed the top, no plunge, set timer on for 40min. after 40 min plunge and pour.
> 
> ...


Grind finer with the burr grinder, don't plunge or let the plunger touch the steeping coffee, pour through the mesh like a strainer after skimming off the surface layer. With a steel press, insulated, you can leave longer than 45min. Try an hour, or until slurry hits 60C.

If letting the grounds sit works for you, then fine, but it isn't necessary to make a representative cup.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Your doing well to make Booths coffee sour .....even the " 3 " roast .

Forget the blade grinder it's not helping and will never help ...

If you have some beans left send 20 g to me ill give am a brew..


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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> If you have some beans left send 20 g to me ill give am a brew..


Sure, got bit left, where shall I send it too?


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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

u2jewel said:


> ... but here is my guess to what accentuated the subtle differences.
> 
> 1)grinders - ...
> 
> 2) Caferiere - ...


Thanks, my guess would be that too, but so far the experiments were inconclusive and I almost ran our of the beans


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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Grind finer with the burr grinder, don't plunge or let the plunger touch the steeping coffee, pour through the mesh like a strainer after skimming off the surface layer. With a steel press, insulated, you can leave longer than 45min. Try an hour, or until slurry hits 60C...


That was pretty much what I did, except the grinder (but grinder type did not seem to make a difference), plunger did not touch the coffee. Oh well. I used the same technique for planalto beans from pact, and it gave me the most satisfying nutty chocolate with distinct meaty plum note. must be the beans :/


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Beanedict said:


> That was pretty much what I did, except the grinder (but grinder type did not seem to make a difference), plunger did not touch the coffee. Oh well. I used the same technique for planalto beans from pact, and it gave me the most satisfying nutty chocolate with distinct meaty plum note. must be the beans :/


The "except the grinder" part of that might be more important than you give credit. If you used the blade grinder and still looked like you had a good degree of fine particles, there could well still be enough big chunks to screw things up. @Mrboots2u will tell you if it is the beans (it might be) but grinder setting makes a big difference with a burr grinder & most blade grinders cannot be set at all.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Booths buy decent greens , so lets see what a ' 3 : tastes like . I hopefully should be able to tell if it's got some sweetness or flatness after a couple of brews.


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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

MWJB said:


> The "except the grinder" part of that might be more important than you give credit. ...


Oh, I am absolutely not arguing that grinder is irrelevant. Just stating that hand burr tasted the same as blade grinder once, and blade grinder twice. So with the blade, I either got the coarseness identical both times (what a master me







) or have ground them fine enough both times to yield the same result; coz, in my understanding, blade grinder can only do one size, really. I'd love to find out what I am doing wrong, or else I'll waste much of precious commodity in the future.


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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Booths buy decent greens , so lets see what a ' 3 : tastes like . I hopefully should be able to tell if it's got some sweetness or flatness after a couple of brews.


I agree, I quite like the beans they put in their free coffee, at least in my local branch. However, I found that what they call 4 or even 5, is actually a 3 in other retail food stores, so who knows what 3 actually is, perhaps extra-light... the photo was taken in a dark room without flash, correct lighting would show much lighter roast.


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