# Learning curve is STEEP...



## LukeT (Aug 6, 2017)

Have finally taken home and set up my new (to me) espresso machine and grinder. An Alex Duetto, which is a thing of beauty, and a Mignon.

Very shiny and lovely but the learning curve is STEEP!

I know I'm only on day 1 but reassure me - how long did it take you to get shots you were reasonably happy with?

I had a bit of expert help to tune the grind for delicious demo shots but having got it home I found it coming through too quickly. Then on gradually going a little finer I quickly clogged the machine. I think perhaps my tamping was both a little on the light side and also perhaps inconsistent. Backing the grinder back off to where I started but increasing my tamping pressure has improved things a little but I still get a fairly sour shot, first drops not through til 6 secs or so but a full shot in only 20ish. Nothing yet you'd really want to drink, not without lashings of milk anyway. Maybe more tamping pressure tomorrow?

I'm weighing my dose but I can't fit cup and scales under my portafilter so weighing out can only be after stopping based on a guess. Or going naked which I don't think I dare try for some considerable time. I think perhaps I should get some shot glasses to see quantity out in the time. I think only the thinnest of scales would fit.

Do folk generally squeeze scales in under the cup while pulling a shot?

Not to say it isn't fun, but I hadn't appreciated just how sensitive these little adjustments need to be!

A newbie in the deep end, just about treading water...


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

So far, I have been very lucky. I have a 100% success rate.

I have only made one espresso though!

I had planned to weigh in and out, but the Mrs broke my scales last night.

I am sure she did it deliberately.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Do you have a wider rimmed cup that you can fit around the spouts & still get the scales on the drip tray.

I've had tasty shots around 20seconds,you are tasting each shot?

Keep your tamp constant.

You have told us that you have tried different things, but you haven't told us what specifically you have tried?

Grinder setting

Dose to 0.1g

Beverage weight at end of shot, in the cup, on scales, on drip tray.

Time

Taste

...for each shot, one by one. Not "I tried finer, then coarser, didn't make anything I liked..." because that makes it difficult to establish any points of reference.

Are you intending to drink the shots as neat espresso?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

LukeT said:


> Have finally taken home and set up my new (to me) espresso machine and grinder. An Alex Duetto, which is a thing of beauty, and a Mignon.
> 
> Very shiny and lovely but the learning curve is STEEP!
> 
> ...


I'd say weighting in and out is a must. Remember when dialling in the grinder you always purge a bit, due to retention. I reckon that's why you choked the machine (went finer, not much difference, went finer and then choked it). When adjusting the grinder finer, always make sure the burrs are spinning!

Re: tamping: don't worry about pressure, just make sure it is consistent. You want to isolate the variables and always change 1 at a time.

Good luck and enjoy the journey!


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

> I know I'm only on day 1 but reassure me - how long did it take you to get shots you were reasonably happy with?


Flipping ages, truth be told. Got it 'reasonable' within the first week or so (although looking back the term 'reasonable' is a slight exaggeration). Don't get disheartened. It's like learning any new skill, it takes a little time and effort (and a few goes at throwing things!) but you will soon look back and laugh at this stage


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## LukeT (Aug 6, 2017)

Thank you for replies. This place is great!

For reference I have an 18g VST basket and am aiming to dose 18g into it. In reality I have varied between about 17.8-18.3 ish. I could of course all but eliminate this variation with care but my starting assumption was that this was an OK tolerance level.

The grinder setting is hard to describe because on the Mignon there's no needle or reference line. I have zero pointing exactly to front of machine right now, which is perhaps 0.25 of a unit finer than successful demo shot, although I have also changed beans since.

My scales, at 28mm height and a depth front to back that means their little feet would be off the front, won't fit under any of my cups, but then I could resolve this with a suitable cup.

Reading a bit more, I should perhaps also start to stir the grinds to distribute them more evenly before tamping. Demo shot was with a levelling thingy pre-tamp.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

LukeT said:


> Reading a bit more, I should perhaps also start to stir the grinds to distribute them more evenly before tamping. Demo shot was with a levelling thingy pre-tamp.


Grind into a cup/pot, shake, then transfer to the PF (dosing collar/funnel is useful), tap to settle, tamp.


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## LukeT (Aug 6, 2017)

And another possible clue, does this little pattern









tell us anything about what I might be doing wrong?

Some of my pucks have abeen a little wet on the top but none "muddy" like I've seen in some pictures of what not to do.

This pic perhaps exagerates the depth of the dimples, which in reality is only just enough to notice them, but do they betray a glaring beginner error anway? I didn't notice them on early shots so I couldn't say they've been there consistently.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Ah, lots of experimentations ahead.

A VST basket will help a lot as the stock ridged basket (18g) has slightly tapered sides which won't help an awful lot.

Try a few different weights. We were dosing at 18.3 the other day into that basket, pulling 27s shots with first drips in 6-8 seconds.

Just under 36g out (about a 1:2 ratio)

When we tightened the grind we got more viscosity and less astringency (characteristic of the coffee)


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

So...

Buy a naked portafilter, it is more important when you are starting out, not less. It teaches you a lot about the extraction and can clearly indicate when a shot goes wrong.

The VST basket however is difficult to use with a naked PF. Its much easier to start out with an IMS basket, they are much more forgiving.

Your picture looks like you have too much coffee in the basket. Even if you put 18g in and 18g VST some coffees will still be too much for the basket.

To check the amount of coffee, put a 2p piece on the tamped dry puck, lock this into the machine and then remove it. The 2p should barely have made a dent in the puck, if it has pushed in much at all then there is too much coffee and you need to go down .5-1g or so


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

it took me couple of weeks to figure out what's going on at all







lots of reading and experimenting, asking questions and buying equipment...it wasn't that bad


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## NAJB (May 19, 2017)

That picture you posted of the dimples on the top of the puck seems strange. The 'shower screen' doesn't have a pattern? Have you made sure the shower screen is perfectly clean and clear of any/all obstructions (a blind flush might help).

The single most important thing is to change only one thing at a time and log what you do. Weight of cofee, setting on grinder, time of shot, weight of shot.

It took me a whole bag of coffee to dial in my known-to-me grinder to my new-to-me espresso m/c.

Thin scales that sit on the m/c are invaluable.


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## LukeT (Aug 6, 2017)

Some things to try and some things to buy then it seems.

Those holes line up with where the water comes out behind the shower screen. While the screen itself is a uniform mesh, if the coffee's too close against it it stands to reason the mesh may not spread the flow/pressure across the area?

Although I should buy thin scales and more suitable cups, there's plenty of other refinements to do first from this thread. Roll on tomorrow...

As you say @Glenn, lots of experimenting required. Thanks so much for your instruction and patience the other day. I hope I don't do your beautifully cared-for machine a disservice. In hindsight I should've written some of what you told me down!


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

Having now pulled more than one coffee, I am in total agreement with the OP.

I will be monitoring this thread for the various hints and tips the more experienced amongst us have.


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## LukeT (Aug 6, 2017)

@CageyH "All the gear and no idea" also describes me perfectly.

I shall now go at coffee with notebook and furrowed brow in a concerted effort to improve my idea:gear ratio.


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## CageyH (Oct 8, 2017)

It is an honest assessment of my skill level right now.

I have a lot of work to do in order to improve my ratio.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I found tamping varied the shot. Some one on here mentioned that the basic idea of tamping is to fully compress the coffee. No problems since then. I adopted my "tamping stance" and pressed as hard as I could onto out kitchen scales with the tamper, some people might use bathroom scales. Thanks to age that turns out to be 25kg in my case via a little bit of straining. It's easier to gauge that than some precise figure.

One thing that wasn't mentioned on here was getting everything hot. I noticed that when I made 2 or more coffees that the taste changed - they where stronger. I have 2 machines and one has dual boilers and heats them up very quickly for that type of machine. The group head heats up more slowly and the portafilter takes a lot longer. What I do is run about 60ml through the portafilter and basket once the group head has heated up. The other machine has a plastic group head so next to no heat gets through to the portafilter. I run a double through a pressurised single basket to get that one up to temperature then fit the correct basket.

Filter basket fill level and grinding sets the rest. What I have found is that there must be room for expansion when the water goes into the coffee. Under filling tends to produce a wetter puck. If taken too far grinding finer and finer can do the same thing. I recent ground the beans that i am currently using even finer so that is now happening but I like the taste. I have a brew pressure gauge. That's now showing maybe 12 bar. No actual bar scale so estimated from the supposed ideal.







I ground one bean so fine once while discovering setting for it that it stalled the pump so used a smaller dose to prevent that from happening. I mostly use a single basket so even 1g may make a huge difference.

I eventually found that a starting weight into the basket was 9.3g. I set that by grinding into the basket, tamping and removing it for weighing, I've noted the weight of the basket. That gives a certain fill level for a given grind. As the grind gets finer the fill level may reduce so the weight might get changed according to taste. Finer tends to lead to more expansion though.

I've found my grinder surprisingly consistent but things do change over time. While nosing around on here I came across a post by some one who seemed to be an ex barista. He periodically tweaked the grinder settings according to the look of the puck. I assume like me he was using a grinder with a timer on it. This has worked well for me. In my case there is a screw that holds the shower screen in place. If the impression of that is too clear something has changed. Same if less clear. If it's very clear and hard the basket is probably over filled.







The machine I use most uses a hex socket screw to hold the shower screen in place which I feel makes this aspect a lot easier but the look of the puck does change anyway as the grinder varies. The shot does too but not so easily to notice. The other machine uses a slotted screw - I'm thinking of changing it.

I've had an overnight step change from the grinder. I decided to run the hopper empty for cleaning so not the usual weight of beans in it. I don't put many in so am rather surprised. So I'll fill it to my usual range and see what happens. Anyway if I did clean the grinder things would start all over again. The grind setting could remain the same but the time would be a lot shorter than it currently is. It would then need increasing pretty often initially and then settle down to the usual occasional tweaks. The beans I am using are pretty oily which seems to extend the time the grinder takes to settle down.

I also use another grinder. On that I usually weigh beans into it. Generally works ok but produces 0.5g variation at times and that's too much for a single basket. It's usually too high from time to time. Probably build up that falls out now and again. As it's a conical grinder it does chew all the beans up. I don't know if flat burrs will do the same thing.

John

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## LukeT (Aug 6, 2017)

I am now getting recognisable espresso shots. They're no longer unpalatable but nor are they tasting fabulous. Part of this may be the accident of doing all this with beans I wasn't already familiar with. However I think that's a small part and it's better to work through a whole bag rather than changing another variable.

I first reduced my dose to 17.6g and started to distribute the grinds with a skewer. This seemed to get rid of the over-filling risk and ensure more consistent tamping from one attempt to the next. Taking the time to stir the grinds alone seemed to improve results. I'd already moved to a harder tamp than yesterday. So I think the variables of tamp and distribution are settling, and they really needed to.

I don't have the equipment to weigh out (won't fit under spout) so I am instead keeping dose (17.6g) and time (28s) constant, varying grind and measuring weight out as my result. Weight out varies quite a lot (ratio from only 1x to 2.1x) with only 0.1 of a unit on the (small, stepless, needleless) grinder wheel, which I reckon is about as fine an adjustment as can be measured with any reliability, so I have to resort to incremental changes of "a tiny bit".

So my idea:gear ratio has increased!

The purchase of a low profile scale and a vessel that'll fit between it and spout will take it back a bit though. Time for another thread on recommended scales, and then maybe a for sale thread on the one I have...


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

you're going to struggle until you have scales, as you've found out changing the grind alters the output significantly therefore you're not changing just 1 variable, you're changing 2 keys ones when you keep the time the same and only alter the grind:- yield and extraction

just grab yourself a cheap set of jewellery scales from amazon or ebay, you can get them for ~£5

have a read of this

https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista-hustle/espresso-recipes-understanding-yield


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

The pressure the machine produces (probably 9 bar) is more pressure than you can apply to the top of a puck with your arm.

This is why variation in tamping pressure makes little to no difference. Any 'variation' you are seeing is likely to be down to something else. Tamping is probably a red herring.


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