# Dual boiler shots too heavy



## joordn (Jan 19, 2017)

Hi,

I'm pretty new to this, bought a sage dual boiler last week after some extensive online research. Upgrading the nespresso.

Anyway I've read that for a shot (double?) you want something like 20g coffee, extracted in 25-30 seconds with an espresso shot weight of 25-30g...

So I click the manual button on the dual boiler to produce a shot with 20g coffee... after 25 seconds I turn it off and I'm left with an espresso shot that weighs over 50g. This is using the finest setting on the matching sage pro grinder.

Basically could anyone please help tell me why my shots are so heavy? I'm using the 2 cup single walled basket.

Many thanks


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

That's not necessarily too heavy. What's it taste like?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

What coffee are you using? Sounds like coffee beans that are not freshly roasted.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

What grinder are you using? If it is the Sage grinder then set the timer to 19.6 seconds on grind setting 7 and it will work. The grinder is naff and you have to seriously overfill the basket. If you watch any Sage promotional video they do not weigh....wonder why that is? They use the double timed button


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> What grinder are you using? If it is the Sage grinder then set the timer to 19.6 seconds on grind setting 7 and it will work. The grinder is naff and you have to seriously overfill the basket. If you watch any Sage promotional video they do not weigh....wonder why that is? They use the double timed button


This:



joordn said:


> This is using the finest setting on the matching sage pro grinder.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Jon said:


> This:


I must learn to read more slowly......forget input and output. If you use the settings I gave you and the 30 second double button trust your taste buds to make adjustments. I had Sage out last week and this was what they did to get a shot


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## joordn (Jan 19, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> What grinder are you using? If it is the Sage grinder then set the timer to 19.6 seconds on grind setting 7 and it will work. The grinder is naff and you have to seriously overfill the basket. If you watch any Sage promotional video they do not weigh....wonder why that is? They use the double timed button


Wow that worked pretty well thanks!

23.6g coffee gave me 25.7g espresso in 30 seconds, quite a lot of coffee I guess (the basket was pretty overflowing... why did it need to do that... because the grinder isn't good?) but much closer to the ballpark figures.

Also... Could anyone explain to me please what the difference between the 1 cup and 2 cup button is? Because the default extraction time is the same.


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## joordn (Jan 19, 2017)

And yeah it tastes quite a bit nicer now... though I'm not really an expert on espresso taste...


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

What beans are you using?


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## joordn (Jan 19, 2017)

Xpenno said:


> What beans are you using?


Allpress redchurch blend... pretty fresh I would guess, I bought the packets last week. Could that be an issue?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

you could try dropping down to a 15 gm VST and when over dosed will only have 18 or so in it


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

joordn said:


> Allpress redchurch blend... pretty fresh I would guess, I bought the packets last week. Could that be an issue?


If they are an old roast date, i.e. couple of months, then they are more likely to gush. You can use the double walled basket if they are old and that compensates for the lack of freshness.

I think the stock basket is around 22-23g capacity. I'd go back to weighing and start at 22g and see if you can get 35 to 40g out in 28 or so seconds.

The grinder is perfectly good in my experience but decafe and old beans will run a lot faster.


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## lmulli (Feb 16, 2015)

I tend to put 18g of coffee in with 32g of liquid out which generally takes 30 seconds. I'd think that putting in 23.6g coffee and the result being just 25.7g of liquid would be like drinking Camp Coffee straight from the bottle! I too have the Sage DB and both the Sage Smart Grinder Pro and Dose Control Pro grinders and find that they both work well once you get the settings right - example being that I had been running the Smart Grinder Pro on a setting of 1 and yet the liquid flowing from the DB was far too much and it didn't appear to be extracting much coffee, so I decided to take it back to the starting point of 15 and hey presto, it was bang on - don't ask me why as it's backwards to what it should be!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

lmulli said:


> I tend to put 18g of coffee in with 32g of liquid out which generally takes 30 seconds. I'd think that putting in 23.6g coffee and the result being just 25.7g of liquid would be like drinking Camp Coffee straight from the bottle! I too have the Sage DB and both the Sage Smart Grinder Pro and Dose Control Pro grinders and find that they both work well once you get the settings right - example being that I had been running the Smart Grinder Pro on a setting of 1 and yet the liquid flowing from the DB was far too much and it didn't appear to be extracting much coffee, so I decided to take it back to the starting point of 15 and hey presto, it was bang on - don't ask me why as it's backwards to what it should be!


The Sage cannot grind fine enough so you have to compensate by up dosing. The OP will find his own level. His output for the time was wrong but it was a step in the right direction. I think 15 is the wrong setting for you. Sage explained all this to me and suggested most beans should be ground using 5 to 8 as a range


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## Craig-R872 (Apr 4, 2016)

I recently purchased a 18g vst, size wise the baskets are very much the same. I just think the sage prefers a fuller basket. Maybe the shower screen sits a bit further into the machine than a traditional e61?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Craig-R872 said:


> I recently purchased a 18g vst, size wise the baskets are very much the same. I just think the sage prefers a fuller basket. Maybe the shower screen sits a bit further into the machine than a traditional e61?


The Sage baskets are good, but the only way of avoiding using vast amounts of coffee is to drop down to a 15 gm VST and up dose to 18.5 gms. This is because the grinder is total garbage and nothing to do with shower screen size. The puck needs to be larger to slow the water flow


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## Craig-R872 (Apr 4, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> The Sage baskets are good, but the only way of avoiding using vast amounts of coffee is to drop down to a 15 gm VST and up dose to 18.5 gms. This is because the grinder is total garbage and nothing to do with shower screen size. The puck needs to be larger to slow the water flow


Did think as much. Grinder is next on the upgrade list anyway. My tamper now fits the vst better.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Craig-R872 said:


> Did think as much. Grinder is next on the upgrade list anyway. My tamper now fits the vst better.


Good! I did not mean to sound disparaging. The dB is a really clever machine and way above the capabilities of a lot of owners, so, they play for the masses. A newbie would see nothing wrong with dosing at 23 to 24 gms to produce a cuppa, but with a little knowledge you can work it out. The coffee it produces I find acceptable but you are looking at 25% more coffee used.


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## Craig-R872 (Apr 4, 2016)

Didn't take it like that anyway lol. I am more than pleased with the machine and it's capabilities. That said I've been getting excellent shots at 19.5-20g. But this is bean dependent. It's all still a learning curve for me.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

When I am using my F83, I dose at 19.4 or very close to that. I find just a little less or more, ruins the shot. Have you turned up the pre infusion on yours to get a lower bar shot?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If you are going to updose a vst basket that much I wouldn't bother with one . I would get a cheaper basket and updose they


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

joordn said:


> Also... Could anyone explain to me please what the difference between the 1 cup and 2 cup button is? Because the default extraction time is the same.


If you bought it new, it sounds like you might benefit from the white glove service that Sage were offering (assuming they still do it) or you could *shock horror* read the manual? You can change the settings for the 1 and 2 cup, to set them either by time or volume.


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## joordn (Jan 19, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> you could try dropping down to a 15 gm VST and when over dosed will only have 18 or so in it


Cool I'll give that a go thanks... any recommendations for a 15g VST that would fit?


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## joordn (Jan 19, 2017)

jlarkin said:


> If you bought it new, it sounds like you might benefit from the white glove service that Sage were offering (assuming they still do it) or you could *shock horror* read the manual? You can change the settings for the 1 and 2 cup, to set them either by time or volume.


I read the manual but it isn't very clear what the different functionality is between the 1 cup or 2 cup. As far as I can tell it says if you want 1 cup then press the 1 cup button and if you want 2 cup press the 2 cup button, which doesn't really help.

Anyway I will arrange the white glove thing eventually at some point, according to the sage website it it still seems to be offered.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

joordn said:


> I read the manual but it isn't very clear what the different functionality is between the 1 cup or 2 cup. As far as I can tell it says if you want 1 cup then press the 1 cup button and if you want 2 cup press the 2 cup button, which doesn't really help.
> 
> .


fair enough!

They're both the same but you can change them, so if you want to try and make longer and shorter shots depending on either the coffee you're using, or if it'll go into milk etc. then you could do it.

I actually use the manual button and kill the shot based on the weight but that's a different matter. I set the 1 cup to be a 5 second time and I use that as a little flush in between shots without the basket being in place. Page 14 talks about how to set the duration or volume: http://www.sageappliances.co.uk/media/mediaappearance/16876/rev-1-BES920UK_IB_K15_LoRes_original.pdf (depending on which one you'd prefer to use).


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

joordn said:


> Cool I'll give that a go thanks... any recommendations for a 15g VST that would fit?


Honestly if the grinder won't go fine enough the vst basket is the last thing you need . Save your cash

Overdosing is counter productive to what they are designed for .


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Honestly if the grinder won't go fine enough the vst basket is the last thing you need . Save your cash
> 
> Overdosing is counter productive to what they are designed for .


Thats as maybe boots, but having had Sage out to look at my grinder, the only way they could pull a shot anything like decent, was by updosing. I do not want to waste 4 to 5 grams of coffee every shot, so I suggested downsizing the basket to waste less coffee. I do not know if you can get 18 gms into a basket designed for 15. You also loosen the grind off to about 7 which gives the desired effect


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Why so little output (1:1)? Is this not the issue over the time period?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Thats as maybe boots, but having had Sage out to look at my grinder, the only way they could pull a shot anything like decent, was by updosing. I do not want to waste 4 to 5 grams of coffee every shot, so I suggested downsizing the basket to waste less coffee. I do not know if you can get 18 gms into a basket designed for 15. You also loosen the grind off to about 7 which gives the desired effect


Fair do's but the vst baskets have more wholes and need a finer grind , if the grinder isnt capable , then AN OTHER basket would be better at slowing the flow down . If this is indeed the problem. VST baskets always flow quicker than a stock basket ( due to the design ) . Get a basket that isnt vst and immediately you want need to grind as fine . Settings not he grinder an all that , as always are dose , coffee, roast dependent . As you are drinking decaf , then it might , just might not be transferable to another coffee....

Anyway as pointed out Trying to pull a 1:1 ratio , no point me commenting on that , not sure ive ever had a decent drink of any coffee at that strength , but horses for courses and all that . Taste is king ...but is gonna need a even finer grind to achieve that , add in a VST basket and a sage grinder... world of pain ...

Lastly VST baskets - precision made to achieve great even extractions, made to reasonable dose tolerances , work best at +/- 1g . If you are gonna just jam em to the brim , then I am really nor sure you are potentially getting the benefit of paying for a premium basket .....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I only suggested VST as I know you can fill them up. Piling high allows you to reduce the grind setting. Does not really make sense. The proof is in the pudding but I am not worried since I have no intention of keeping it, but, it might help others


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I only suggested VST as I know you can fill them up. Piling high allows you to reduce the grind setting. Does not really make sense. The proof is in the pudding but I am not worried since I have no intention of keeping it, but, it might help others


 your adding more coffee , therefore more resistance , its more stuff for the water to get through ( at the same grind ) . Therefore can allow you to grind coarser ,if required .


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## Craig-R872 (Apr 4, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> When I am using my F83, I dose at 19.4 or very close to that. I find just a little less or more, ruins the shot. Have you turned up the pre infusion on yours to get a lower bar shot?


Have not yet altered the pre infusion but will be having a play! My pressure seems to drop to a steady 9.5ish bar anyway. Will have a play over the weekend are you suggesting a pre infusion of longer and or more pressure?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Forget the white glove service, no dis-respect but they are machine engineers not baristas .

Some basic training and experienced steer is whats needed here


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Craig-R872 said:


> Have not yet altered the pre infusion but will be having a play! My pressure seems to drop to a steady 9.5ish bar anyway. Will have a play over the weekend are you suggesting a pre infusion of longer and or more pressure?


Courtesy of Gary ****, you set the pre infusion to 60 seconds, so that the shot is pulled via the pump power setting that you cal also control. The effect being a shot pulled at lower bar

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?34666-Sage-DB-is-this-acceptable/page3&highlight=sage


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## Craig-R872 (Apr 4, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> Courtesy of Gary ****, you set the pre infusion to 60 seconds, so that the shot is pulled via the pump power setting that you cal also control. The effect being a shot pulled at lower bar


Yeah have done this for a 6-7bar shot. I thought you meant adjust the pre infusion so you get a lower bar full power shot. (If that makes sense)


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## joordn (Jan 19, 2017)

jlarkin said:


> fair enough!
> 
> They're both the same but you can change them, so if you want to try and make longer and shorter shots depending on either the coffee you're using, or if it'll go into milk etc. then you could do it.


How should an espresso shot differ if you are going to drink it on its own or if you are going to add milk?


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## joordn (Jan 19, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Thats as maybe boots, but having had Sage out to look at my grinder, the only way they could pull a shot anything like decent, was by updosing. I do not want to waste 4 to 5 grams of coffee every shot, so I suggested downsizing the basket to waste less coffee. I do not know if you can get 18 gms into a basket designed for 15. You also loosen the grind off to about 7 which gives the desired effect


If you have to updose the coffee so much because the grinder isn't great... shouldn't i be using the finest setting rather than setting 7... which should mean i have to updose a bit less?

The other problem I have is when I put so much coffee in the basket, some of it kind of falls on the kitchen side so it's not the most consistent method...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

joordn said:


> If you have to updose the coffee so much because the grinder isn't great... shouldn't i be using the finest setting rather than setting 7... which should mean i have to updose a bit less?
> 
> The other problem I have is when I put so much coffee in the basket, some of it kind of falls on the kitchen side so it's not the most consistent method...


All I can say is on the finest setting with 19 gms it gushes. I will try 21 gms later and see what happens


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> All I can say is on the finest setting with 19 gms it gushes. I will try 21 gms later and see what happens


Just tweek the goddam burr shim and you'll have plenty of usable grind settings


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## Craig-R872 (Apr 4, 2016)

Just changed bean to Rave Columbian Suarez, grind setting 10 upper burr 4 dosed 20g 42g out in 33 secs. Tasted lovely.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> All I can say is on the finest setting with 19 gms it gushes. I will try 21 gms later and see what happens


What basket are you using? The standard sage holds 18g. At 19g is it definitely 19g that's going in the basket?

I've had a play with the sage grinder (an older one) and managed to get in the espresso range. I thought the newer ones didn't need shimming....I could be wrong.

Have distribution issues been completely ruled out?


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## Sean (Jun 20, 2014)

garydyke1 said:


> Forget the white glove service, no dis-respect but they are machine engineers not baristas .
> 
> Some basic training and experienced steer is whats needed here


Just my tuppence but, the guy who came to me, I think his name might have been Josh, was bang into coffee and seemed very knowledgeable. He was in fact heading to a cupping session in Brighton after he visited me (although that could mean anything in Brighton). However, I don't think coffee fanaticism is a requirement of working for Coffee Classics and I was probably lucky to get him.


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## Sean (Jun 20, 2014)

Can someone explain the theory to over filling the basket please. I've been using the standard Sage double and don't have any trouble in the 17-18g range. Never used the Smart Grinder for espresso but the PF can be wound right in so the puck pushes into the screen if necessary.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> What basket are you using? The standard sage holds 18g. At 19g is it definitely 19g that's going in the basket?
> 
> I've had a play with the sage grinder (an older one) and managed to get in the espresso range. I thought the newer ones didn't need shimming....I could be wrong.
> 
> Have distribution issues been completely ruled out?


using the stock sage basket


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> using the stock sage basket


You are running decafe, right?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Decafe is aways tricky to dial in versus full caff version .


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

next time the sages hopper is empty, I will run some normal beans through and try that and see if I can master it


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

All decaf beans (apart from avenue coffees decaf) always seem to need mega fine grind and even then they p*ss through.


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## joordn (Jan 19, 2017)

For anyone that's interested... I've narrowed it down to using grind size 6, grind time 19.4 seconds.... that gives me 22-23g coffee which extracts in 26-32 seconds with a weight of 30-35g. And it generally tastes pretty good.

I can't really get any more specific than that because using the smart grinder pro (or the way I'm using it anyway) doesn't really give me exact coffee amounts because when I grind some of the coffee spews out of the portafilter.... are there any good ways of getting around that? Or is that the benefit of a more expensive grinder?

Thanks


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Weight your pf or basket after you have ground the coffee into it.


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## joordn (Jan 19, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Weight your pf or basket after you have ground the coffee into it.


Yeah I do weigh it after I have ground the coffee and tamped but I mean when I press the grind button on the sage smart grinder pro some of the coffee falls all over the place rather than going in the portafilter... is that meant to happen?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

joordn said:


> when I grind some of the coffee spews out of the portafilter.... are there any good ways of getting around that? Or is that the benefit of a more expensive grinder?
> 
> Thanks


You need a portafilter funnel. There are loads of options from £££ to free. They all do the same thing - catch the coffee as it comes out and funnel it into the basket. In price order -

1 - Coffee Catcha: metal funnel/ring with a handle that sits on top of the basket and doesn't interfere with the edges of the basket. Short flared edge catches most stray coffee and you can tamp through it if you want (I just tap and shake or stir mine) Not cheap but nice. Systemic Kid very kindly gave me his and that is what I use.

2 - a 3d printed funnel along similar lines. There was a fella on here making them to order a while ago.

3 - a yoghurt pot with the bottom cut off. DavecUK gave me something similar: a funny little Asian dessert called Cocon, whose pots are, er, 'cock-on' for making these. The plastic is thin enough not to really mess with the edges, and the tapered sides mean you can cut it to exactly the right diameter (to fit a 58mm basket). It's quite narrow at the top but adds enough height to keep a 'mound' from collapsing over the edge. Does sit inside the basket so you can't tamp through it and it can catch the edges of the puck, but that's not really the thing to do anyway - just tap the PF till all the grinds are level, remove Cocon and tamp.

I have a very expensive grinder and it still sprays coffee everywhere when it's in the mood so don't worry about that. Just sort yourself out with a suitable catcher.


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## lmulli (Feb 16, 2015)

Never had such an issue with my Smart Grinder Pro. The coffee falls slap bang in the middle of the basket and I give it a shake every now and then whilst it's dispensing the grounds into the basket to help even it up and prevent a central stack being created.


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