# Looking for an upgrade from my Gaggia classic



## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

Hello,

I've finally manage to join after reading many many threads on here.

I bought my classic about a year ago after having a Cubika for 2 years before that. I am now looking to upgrade after playing with smart San remo machines on a recent barista course.

I'm looking to get something above the Siliva level but my limitation is that it must be tank fed rather than plumbed in.

I'll keep reading to gather ideas but wanted to ask for advice.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

If you like steaming milk then look at the Fracino Piccino dual boiler, for around £600.

What's your budget?


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Three words "Rocket Giatto Evolutione"

I am in love with this machine


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

I love my Rocket and can totally recommend them.

But I have recently seen an Iberital L'Anna (much loved by some on TMC) and I've been highly impressed. Like a mini full commercial machine and built like a Land Rover. Not pretty, but looks like it will last forever and be easy to maintain.

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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Yeah, that doesn't quite have the look of the Rocket does it?!










I keep scheming with ways I can actually afford the £1300 the Evolutione would cost me. Still not come up with a viable option yet.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

There are quite a few higher end domestic and even some commercial machines that can be run from a tank water supply or 'hand fill'. What sort of of budget do you have in mind and do you think you would prefer heat exchanger or dual boiler type design?


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Here's a question to you guys - if it's a choice between a Rocket Premium Plus or an Expobar Leva Dual Boiler - both the same price - is there anything to recommend the Rocket other than the fact it's much more beautiful?

The Dual Boiler + PID on the Expobar puts it well ahead on paper. Apart from its looks, does the Rocket have anything the Expobar lacks? Build quality?


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

I'm looking 2nd hand initially (should have mentioned that) and have been searching ebay and websites for ideas - around £500 unless the shares do (much) better.

I'm not clued up on hx and twin boilers to know which is better for me? I drink mainly espresso but like milky drinks as well, but don't drink many at home due to the gaggia's steaming (or my ability) not being up to the job.


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

ideas so far have been:

La Cimbali M21

Bezzera bz02

Gaggia TS

Isomac zaffiro (haven't seen any used yet)


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

A second hand single group commercial machine (hand fill) would definitely be something to consider. Second hand I would imagine there will be more commercial machines available than high-end domestic/prosumer.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

How about the Nuova Simonelli Musica? An amazing machine, I think around £1100 new? don't quote me on the price i may be wrong. I was thinking of getting one as the lever controlled steam would be easier for my partner with the use of only one hand.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Wouldn't you miss that nice lever that the others have to stop/start the flow? I much prefer the look of it instead of buttons.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

The other one to consider for a steam lever rather than knob is the la spaziale mini Vivaldi which is also tank driven, but its closer to the £1400 mark I think. Also a 53mm portafilter, not that it should necessarily be a problem but less choice of accessories (new baskets, tampers etc).

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## ripley (Jan 16, 2012)

chimpsinties said:


> Three words "Rocket Giatto Evolutione"
> 
> I am in love with this machine


We wants it, we needs it. Must have the precious

if this was a newspaper that picture would be on page 3


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Southpaw said:


> ideas so far have been:
> 
> La Cimbali M21
> 
> ...


Those look good bets if you can find them along with

La Spatziale Mini Vivaldi

Fracino Baby Gem

Iberital l'ana

I am sure there will be others too. You might find it harder to find 'prosumer' machines like the Zaffiro second hand at such reasonable prices - I think you will get very good value with a second hand commercial machine. Also I believe the Zaffiro is a single boiler dual use machine and so will not give you much of an improvement in steaming facility over your existing machine.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I have seen many Gaggia TS's on eBay, like this one for example.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gaggia-TS1-Semi-Commercial-1-Group-Espresso-Machine-/130655354703?pt=Coffee_Machines_Makers&hash=item1e6baa7f4f#ht_1494wt_1396

EDIT: After reading the description on this machine it seems like a great choice, definitely going to add it to watched items.

I wish the Zaffiro would come down in price because its perfect for me as mostly a shot drinker.


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

chimpsinties said:


> Yeah, that doesn't quite have the look of the Rocket does it?!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

It is a heat exchanger. The ability to steam milk and brew coffee is a feature that is common to both heat exchanger (HX) and double boiler machines.

Machines can be broadly divided into the following categories based upon the method they use to heat water and steam:

- Thermoblock - this is a block of plastic or aluminium with a very narrow channel for the water through the middle. The block is heated with the idea being that by the time the water has travelled through the block it will have reached the desired temperature. These machines only have a single heating component so cannot brew coffee and heat milk simultaneously. Because pressure cannot be built up within the thermoblock as would be possible in a boiler, the pump is used to pulse small quantities of water through the thermoblock to create steam for milk. The small volumes involved flash boil creating steam albeit rather wet steam.

Examples of this design include most entry level and low-mid range domestic machines

- Single Boiler Dual Use - these machines have a single boiler used for both heating the brew water and creating steam for milk. The boiler is controlled by 2 thermostats and by selecting the appropriate thermostat the boiler can be used to heat water to ~92 degrees for coffee brewing or to ~125 degrees for steaming milk. These machines must be switched between brewing and steam modes and there is a delay while the boiler changes temperature.

Examples of this machine include Gaggia Domestic machines, Isomac Zaffiro, Rancillio Silvia

- Heat eXchanger (HX) - these machines have a single, very large boiler which is controlled by a pressurestat. The pressurestat ensures that the boiler is kept hot enough to maintain the desired steam pressure within the boiler. For brewing coffee, cold water is pumped on demand through a narrow copper pipe running through the middle of the boiler and is indirectly heated by the hotter water in the boiler that surrounds it. This design allows coffee to be brewed and milk to be steamed simultaneously.

One common criticism of this design is that the brew water is not held at a static temperature as with a dedicated boiler. This means that the temperature of the brew water depends upon how quickly the water moves through the HX pipe i.e. if shots are produced at a constant, steady rythmn as in a commercial environment, then the temperature will be perfect but if the machine is left idle for a period of time then the water in the HX pipe will overheat. This overheated water can of course be purged before brewing the next shot but this requires a degree of mechanical sympathy on the part of the Barista. Proponents of the HX design claim fresher brew water in low-volume use cases because there is less brew water held in the machine to go stale. HX users also enjoy flexibility over the brew water temperature and the "humped" temperature profile specific to HX machines.

Examples of this design include most commercial machines, many high-end domestic and 'prosumer' machines such as the NS Oscar and Rocket and most of the machines you listed earlier.

- Dual Boilers - these machines use a brute force approach with two boilers - one dedicated to heating brew water, controlled by a thermostat and the other for producing steam for milk controlled by a pressurestat. This allows simultaneous brewing and steaming. Higher end variations often include a PID to more precisely control the temperature of the brew boiler. Also some pre-heat the cold brew water prior to entering the brew boiler by heat exchange through the steam boiler for additional temperature stability. Beware some machines such as the Gaggia Baby Twin that claim to be of double boiler design but actually use a thermoblock for producing steam rather than a second boiler.

Examples of double boiler machines include some high-end commercial machines such as La Marzocco, Synesso, San Remo TCS and some prosumer machines such as the Expobar Office Leva Dual and the Izzo Alex Duetto. Also the Fracino Piccino is a double boiler machine.

- Lever machines - these machines use a Barista operated lever rather than a pump to generate pressure. They tend to have a single boiler maintained at steam temperature. They push the brew water through a cool group head with large thermal mass to reduce its temperature prior to brewing. This means that if there is not enough time between shots, for the group head to recover, then it will start to heat up thereby reducing its effectiveness at cooling the brew water. Both steaming and brewing can be carried out simultaneously on this machine (providing you have enough hands







)


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

Great stuff Jim! That helps loads.


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

The search is over







The coffee tasting is waiting until tomorrow for a new group gasket as the current one is a bit knackered.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Very nice indeed! I hope it is everything you wanted. Here is a good article to get you started with Heat eXchanger machines:

http://www.home-barista.com/hx-love.html

Interesting that it has a panarello steam wand - I would not have expected that on this machine.


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

jimbow said:


> Very nice indeed! I hope it is everything you wanted. Here is a good article to get you started with Heat eXchanger machines:
> 
> http://www.home-barista.com/hx-love.html
> 
> Interesting that it has a panarello steam wand - I would not have expected that on this machine.


Lots to understand on the HB link - I'll keep reading to see if anything sticks in my head.

The gaggia is as my wife termed it f-ing stupidly massive, but for that I absolutely love it









It does have that wand but the steam power is very very far removed from the old classic. Need to have a good practice once the new gasket turns up.


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

Fairly sure you could get a steam wand from a Gaggia XD/Deco/GD etc fitted to these!


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

Gasket and new shower screen turned up today. Tried fitting and the old gasket was solid - coffee geek suggested removing with wood screws and 5 mins later we were in business









2 espressos trying to fine tune the grind and I'm now out of beans









Job for the morning find some beans to tide me over the weekend.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

you should be able to fit a rancilio steam wand to that gaggia then your steaming dreams begin


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

I've got a rancilio steam wand on my classic, but I don't think it's compatible with the ts.

The steam performance is very good and I hope I can keep the panarello for now as the commercial replacement is 60+ quid


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