# Black espresso or with milk?



## PreCoffeeCantankerousness (Dec 14, 2014)

Hi.

Im just wondering why people say some coffee beans are best as espresso or with milk.

What do you look for to know which category the bean falls into?

What happens if you use the bean the 'wrong' way around?

Does roast level have a part to play?

Cheers.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

I don't think it really works like that - other than it's a someone's view that an espresso might bring out flavours and taste that you won't get by another method and that a bean, in the way it's roasted, might reveal more as an espresso. I routinely use the same beans for espresso and brewed and to add milk (for my wife). I end up enjoying different tastes and often happily surprised at the differences in taste that are revealed. A good case is Has Bean's Christmas Espresso Blend and Christmas Filter Blend. For me they worked equally as well (but obviously differently) as espresso and brewed (and for my wife, with milk). Roast level will always play its part. Maybe some beans just don't work very well as both espresso and brewed - it's just that I haven't come across them.


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

It largely has to do with the flavour profile of the bean, some single origins taste weird in milk and some are better suited as espresso or even just filter.

You will largely find espresso blends to be typically more muted in acidity and have a chocolate/nutty/caramel sweetness which will partner better in milk than say -

a funky Natural Processed Ethiopian which stinks of blueberries.

There's always exceptions and sometimes it can lead to unusually pleasing results when combined with milk.

For example I've had a Rwandan Washed Red Bourbon recently that as espresso tastes like plums/stone fruit and is really jammy,

but in milk it is super sweet and tastes like Bakewell tart with a strong almond finish!

Speciality roasters tend to roaster to a profile to intentionally help the bean best retain it's natural characteristics,

it doesn't mean that they roast 'lighter' in general but they certainly don't roast the beans to the point that the bean's flavour is tainted with the effects of carbonisation unless its intentional.

To summarise, there is no right or wrong way round it is entirely your preference and if you want to have filter coffee that is roasted 'dark' and you like it then happy days!


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Phil104 and Beanosaurus

Well done for such well written replies. Sums things up nicely and makes it much clearer to understand to a total n00b like myself. Don't hold your breath that I'll be able to repeat that to someone else though without reading it from here, lol!


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

And as another example, was enjoying Extract's Strong Man Espresso (a single origin Colombian) as an espresso across the weekend, my wife with it a as the basis for a flat white, and I have just had it in a Cores gold filter mug - equally but differently enjoyable. And DoubleShot, thank you for your thanks - I'm only following pretty much a standard message on the forum - that ultimately it's down to what tastes good to you.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Or, as CamV6 says on a thread started by urbanbumpkin (grind finer tamp lighter):

'Why does it work? Because it does. Just do it. Drink coffee. Don't ask questions!

I too reached this realisation a while back and my coffee has improved immeasurably'

This is, of course, acceptance of the zen shot rather than a fruitless quest after the god shot.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

I have sooo much to learn but will be more than happy with coffee that tastes good to me and others I serve it to. I'm not planning on getting down to the nitty gritty in a scientific level but I do understand that you need to follow and maintain good, consistent technique once you find what works.


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

DoubleShot said:


> Phil104 and Beanosaurus
> 
> Well done for such well written replies. Sums things up nicely and makes it much clearer to understand to a total n00b like myself. Don't hold your breath that I'll be able to repeat that to someone else though without reading it from here, lol!


You call yourself a noob... A 'noob' with a Brewtus AND a Ceado E37s!?

You're pulling my leg son!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Open your minds..... - Buy , extract coffee well , drink and experiment.

Funky Ethiopians in milk can kill ( foundrys and origins as two examples)

I've had blends with killer citrus fruit notes (not just muted and chocolate and nut that work great in milk) ( workshop , Atkinson's ).

Open your mind , buy Brew and extract it properly....









Oh and I'm living proof of this - equipment doesnt equal skill


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Can some knowledgeable person please explain, in layman terms, the differences between single origin and blended beans? How does it affect taste in the cup?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Open your minds.....


Join the boots zen coffee movement.....


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## PreCoffeeCantankerousness (Dec 14, 2014)

Thanks for the responses.

I guess I'm just looking for some rules or guidelines to guide me in discovering what my tastes are in coffee rather than blundering along randomly going from one bean/blend/roaster to another and throwing every shot down the sink as they are too vile to drink - and not knowing why.

I realise there are some rules that are good to follow and some that you have to break to enjoy the discovery of unexpected rewards. In photography you could say the rules of taking your lens cap off and the rule of thirds, respectively.

There just has to be a better way to discovering what ones tastes in coffee are.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PreCoffeeCantankerousness said:


> Thanks for the responses.
> 
> I guess I'm just looking for some rules or guidelines to guide me in discovering what my tastes are in coffee rather than blundering along randomly going from one bean/blend/roaster to another and throwing every shot down the sink as they are too vile to drink - and not knowing why.


The tasting notes supplied by the roaster are the best place to start. Pick one that sounds nice and stick at it, changing beans every few brews is moving the goal posts.

Make a French press with the beans, same grind as you'd use for espresso, kettle 1 min off boil, 52.5g/l, wet all grounds thoroughly with the pour, don't stir, & leave covered for 10-20mins, skim/pour off the surface layer & then taste it, note the flavours, sweetness, bitterness, acidity...that's your target for the espresso, it will be more concentrated, with a thicker mouthfeel, but it shouldn't be a world away.

Taking your lens cap off = extracting the coffee to a nominal state, changing beans all the time is like someone putting the lens cap back on every time your back is turned. The beans you are buying, if others are enjoying them too, are obviously not too vile to drink.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

MWJB

Great suggestion. Might give that a go...

Thanks.


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## KkAaNnEe (Jan 2, 2015)

I've found in my limited time that I prefer darker roasts with milk and lighter roasts without. Reason being is that the darker roasts taste more chocolately/rich and the lighter roasts have almost a little too much else going on to combine with milk. I like to compare it to black tea and something else like chai/earl grey, I generally like black tea with milk but find chai/earl grey a little sickly with milk


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## PreCoffeeCantankerousness (Dec 14, 2014)

@ kkaannee, thanks. I know what you mean.

@ mark

ok... Vile is indeed a harsh term. It was a purely personal reaction embodying both the taste and my levels of frustration, and I recognise everyone has their own tastes. But as your sig so rightly states... Coffee does indeed evoke the most insane reactions in people!









ok, I will try this cupping or filter method at some point. I've just not had the time last month. Although to be honest, I really do not like drinking cafetiere coffee at all which is in part why I've put it off and concentrated on the espresso experiments. I do recognise the value of the experiment though and will give it a shot. Also, the last time I had a cafetiere coffee was at least a decade ago with supermarket coffee, so it would be interesting to compare.

With regards to changing coffees, I do spend some time with each running many experiments over the course of days or weeks. I document every variable and the tastes of every shot. I weigh at every step. I do make incremental adjustments. I do repeat experiments to judge repeatability and the effect of time on the beans.

I have found this invaluable in dialling in each bean and ensuring all deficiencies are corrected....

http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-guide-diagnose-extraction-problems.html

I then play with minor variances in each parameter to see the effect such as bringing out the sweetness, reducing a tang, and in one memorable shot, getting Gandalfs freshly laundered tobacco smoked robes!

I'm also playing around now with the pressure at various parts of the pull.

My endeavours are simultaneously a great deal of fun, very rewarding and very frustrating.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PreCoffeeCantankerousness said:


> ok, I will try this cupping or filter method at some point. I've just not had the time last month. Although to be honest, I really do not like drinking cafetiere coffee at all which is in part why I've put it off and concentrated on the espresso experiments. I do recognise the value of the experiment though and will give it a shot. Also, the last time I had a cafetiere coffee was at least a decade ago with supermarket coffee, so it would be interesting to compare.


The French press extraction is less of an experiment & more of a tool for you to gauge flavour development...it's the simplest way to brew & the instruction will pretty much guarantee a nominal extraction (as much as you can with any brew method), the idea being that if you were to dilute your espresso to the same strength, then they should be reasonably similar. It's not to make a "better" brew than your espresso either, it will hopefully reveal a range of flavours present in the coffee & not symptoms of an abnormal extraction.

BTW, don't plunge the French press, pour through the mesh held above the liquid, like a strainer, in little tasters, let it cool a little...or you can taste off the top with a spoon like in a cupping. We don't want to stir up the grinds as these will make for a bitter taste.


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