# Sour coffee



## Sirmol (Feb 13, 2019)

Hey guys - huge learning curb for me at the moment. I recently got a Barista Express and I can't stop making coffee that is sour. As fas as i understood it - it is because the coffee is being under extracted and therefore needs to be finer? I've tried this but with no luck. The pressure gauge on the BE i've experimented between 12'oclock and towards the 'top end' of the espresso range on the gauge. The beans were roasted from Atkinsons last week so are fresh.

Cheers all,


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## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

How long is the extraction and what is the output volume or weight?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What is the coffee in ( dose in grams )

Coffee made ( in grams )

in what time

Yes grinding finer can help , but only if you have a reasonable brew ratio set already .


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## Sirmol (Feb 13, 2019)

I'm not sure - I might need to get scales of this is the case


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sirmol said:


> I'm not sure - I might need to get scales of this is the case


Yeah need these variables , to help trouble shoot and repeat tasty.

Without em we are all just guessing what to do to help you.


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## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

Sirmol said:


> I'm not sure - I might need to get scales of this is the case


If you don't have scales measure the volume of what you normally extract. It should be around 50 to 70ml and the time.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

M_H_S said:


> If you don't have scales measure the volume of what you normally extract. It should be around 50 to 70ml and the time.


Well it depends on the dose, before setting an output with any real certainty.

If the dose is 14g and the outpour is already 50ml and its sour then what


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

M_H_S said:


> If you don't have scales measure the volume of what you normally extract. It should be around 50 to 70ml and the time.


That's assuming the double basket is used.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ashcroc said:


> That's assuming the double basket is used.


Could be that for the single too, depending on grind/grinder.


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## Sirmol (Feb 13, 2019)

I've been using the razor tool supplied to ensure after tamping the lvl is right. I'll grab some scales and see what the number are


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## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

Yes agreed. Just trying to simplify. Yes all those matter. I was assuming it's a double unpressurised basket.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Could be that for the single too, depending on grind/grinder.


That makes for some loooooooong ratios though.


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## Sirmol (Feb 13, 2019)

I've been using the razor tool supplied to ensure after tamping the lvl is right. I'll grab some scales and see what the number are


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sirmol said:


> I've been using the razor tool supplied to ensure after tamping the lvl is right. I'll grab some scales and see what the number are


Ditch the razor and measure the dose , the dose will change as you go finer and coarser, the razor wont let you allow for this though.

there is no magic to making coffee , plenty of us have made 100's of shots and still use scales and weigh .

You dont get to a point where you learn to make without scales , people jsut in theory get better at guessing and estimating .

Me id rather just know


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## Sirmol (Feb 13, 2019)

Scales ordered - here tomo (thank you amazon prime) then I'll grab some ratios. I've wasted sadlya lot of coffee this weekend - however this is why o bought this to try and learn. Cheers for all the replies


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## Sirmol (Feb 13, 2019)

Hey all - I've been PMing MrBoots but basically 19g equalled 60g out in 28 seconds - the coffee smelt and tasted sour still.

also the puck was very wet this ttime


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sirmol said:


> Hey all - I've been PMing MrBoots but basically 19g equalled 60g out in 28 seconds - the coffee smelt and tasted sour still.
> 
> also the puck was very wet this ttime


Grind finer.

How much were you aiming for in terms of g in the cup?


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## Sirmol (Feb 13, 2019)

I'm using the Barista express so just used their preset values/timings for a double shot


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sirmol said:


> I'm using the Barista express so just used their preset values/timings for a double shot


Again use scales..... stop the shot by weight , as before go finer and repeat 19g > 60g , taste come back.


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## Sirmol (Feb 13, 2019)

Is 60g too much? I can't do it at moment as sorting kids but is this too high an output?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sirmol said:


> Is 60g too much? I can't do it at moment as sorting kids but is this too high an output?


It might not be your preference of strength. But it's only too much if you don't want a drink that big.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sirmol said:


> Is 60g too much? I can't do it at moment as sorting kids but is this too high an output?


At the grind setting you have, it's not enough - because your coffee is sour.

To get rid of the sourness you need to grind finer and/or pull more weight out.

Why are you using 19g, 18g should be enough to get a good extraction. Overfilling might lead to under-extraction (sourness)


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

Sirmol said:


> Is 60g too much? I can't do it at moment as sorting kids but is this too high an output?


If your making milk based drinks then in my opinion 60g is too much in the cup.

So... is your espresso for milk based drinks?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

HowardSmith said:


> If your making milk based drinks then in my opinion 60g is too much in the cup.
> 
> So... is your espresso for milk based drinks?


Fair enough but lets get the drink to not sour before we start making it sourer by using less water..


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## Sirmol (Feb 13, 2019)

Yes ideally i am working towards making flat whites. Tried a few different settings and came out with;

18g in 54g out in 19secs

18g in 47g out in 18 secs

I still think i could taste sour notes in both but certainly less.


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> Fair enough but lets get the drink to not sour before we start making it sourer by using less water..


Well suggesting pull longer or drop the dose may get a better tasting espresso but if we end up with an 80g shot of good tasting espresso & then have to work back to 1:2 to put it in milk then what is the point.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

HowardSmith said:


> Well suggesting pull longer or drop the dose may get a better tasting espresso but if we end up with an 80g shot of good tasting espresso & then have to work back to 1:2 to put it in milk then what is the point.


Getting a drink that doesn't taste sour....

base of milk drink is a good espresso.

Why does it have to be 1:2 for a milk drink.

Answer it doesnt


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

HowardSmith said:


> Well suggesting pull longer or drop the dose may get a better tasting espresso but if we end up with an 80g shot of good tasting espresso & then have to work back to 1:2 to put it in milk then what is the point.


You don't have to work back to 1:2.

You do need to enjoy your coffee & not complain that it's sour. If that means slightly longer ratios, or shorter than 1:2 what does it matter?

Sticking to 1:2 and not enjoying your drink is not ideal. BTW the OP hasn't so far said they need a 1:2 shot?


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## Sirmol (Feb 13, 2019)

I'm quite flexible in how 'strong' my coffee is when not sour - that is my main focus. Fun and games lol

18g in 54g out in 19secs

18g in 47g out in 18 secs

Do these sound any 'better' - used in the looser term.


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

I am not suggesting it has to be 1:2 but IMO I wouldn't suggest it being much longer than that as Tyne cup will be washed out in milk.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sirmol said:


> I'm quite flexible in how 'strong' my coffee is when not sour - that is my main focus. Fun and games lol
> 
> 18g in 54g out in 19secs
> 
> ...


How do they taste , number meant nowt to mean from here without your taste buds.

You probably need to grind finer as your shot time isn't getting longer form the sour shot which suggest you havent changed the grinder setting to me .

Grind finer .


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## Sirmol (Feb 13, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> How do they taste , number meant nowt to mean from here without your taste buds.
> 
> You probably need to grind finer as your shot time isn't getting longer form the sour shot which suggest you havent changed the grinder setting to me .
> 
> Grind finer .


my grinder settings included;

Original shot - Grinder setting 8

18g in 54g out in 19secs Grinder setting 14

18g in 47g out in 18 secs Grinder setting 13 - this shot produced a coffee I could drink but my tastebuds still taste a sour note in there...but that could be me not used to this type of drink.


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

Sirmol said:


> Yes ideally i am working towards making flat whites. Tried a few different settings and came out with;
> 
> 18g in 54g out in 19secs
> 
> ...


Those shots are too big for a flat white IMO. Even if they were the best extracted most perfect espresso drinks they will not make the best flat whites because they are too weak & washing the cup out.

If it were me I would stick to your 18g dose & cut your shots at between 30&40g... you will need to grind a lot finer & also get your shot times up a bit or it will be more sour...

This may contradict the approach to keep pulling a longer brew ratio but at the end of the day your making flat whites & don't what 50% of the cup to be weak but tasty espresso.


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## Sirmol (Feb 13, 2019)

HowardSmith said:


> Those shots are too big for a flat white IMO. Even if they were the best extracted most perfect espresso drinks they will not make the best flat whites because they are too weak & washing the cup out.
> 
> If it were me I would stick to your 18g dose & cut your shots at between 30&40g... you will need to grind a lot finer & also get your shot times up a bit or it will be more sour...
> 
> This may contradict the approach to keep pulling a longer brew ratio but at the end of the day your making flat whites & don't what 50% of the cup to be weak but tasty espresso.


Thanks for this,; So If i manually pulled the shot with 18g going in and stopped around 35g and attempted to get the shot time to what?


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

Sirmol said:


> Thanks for this,; So If i manually pulled the shot with 18g going in and stopped around 35g and attempted to get the shot time to what?


Shot time is just a reflection of the grind setting, don't worry too much about it but your shots at this tighter ratio will definitely be longer than 18s (as you will be grinding finer).

As a rough guide most shots will fall between 25-40 seconds.

Pull a shot at 18in 35out in 40seconds (keep grinding finer until your around this time) & see if it's still sour IN MILK.

What boots & mwjb are telling you is completely correct but IMO it misses the point because you are trying to make great tasty milk drinks... If you were drinking the espresso & are happy to have a weak 70g shot for example then yeh keep pushing the output to get a balanced shot...


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## Sirmol (Feb 13, 2019)

Cheers - will give it a go.


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

Sirmol said:


> Cheers - will give it a go.


For what it's worth when I had a BE my grind was usually between 3 & 5.


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## Sirmol (Feb 13, 2019)

Huge thanks to all - especially MrBoots and Howard, I was grinding the wrong way on my machine.... So finished tonight with 18g in 36g out in around 28 seconds with Grind setting of 5 - sour notes little to none, didn't try it with milk yet as i don't think it sleep tonight drinking it this late but really pleased with where tonight started and finished! Thanks again all.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

HowardSmith said:


> Shot time is just a reflection of the grind setting, don't worry too much about it but your shots at this tighter ratio will definitely be longer than 18s (as you will be grinding finer).
> 
> As a rough guide most shots will fall between 25-40 seconds.
> 
> ...


Milk won't fix a sour shot, often makes it worse

Again a good shot is the basis of a good drink.

Don't make something that has to be fixed by milk or that is always 1:2 ... this is where people get unstuck most of the time IMHO.

Glad the op got to where he wants.


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> Milk won't fix a sour shot, often makes it worse
> 
> Again a good shot is the basis of a good drink.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with anything you're saying.

But a tasty 1:1.5 (30g for example) for me is a much better 'espresso' than a tasty 1:3 (60g for example) in a milk drink because of the ratios of espresso to milk.

If extracted well the shorter shot will make the milk drink richer & 'creamier'... The longer shot will be less rich & more 'watered' down.

I have had a few light roasts recently & have found I have had to pull them a bit longer than I normally would. I drink exclusively in milk & although I have the light roasts tasting good I just don't like the drinks as much... 'Mouthfeel' in milk is important too.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Fair enough, i drink predominantly espresso, black americano and filter so Im not looking for a shot to fit into milk.

You talk of extracting well and then talk of a 1:1.5 ratio which while having some potential sweetness and strength that people will like , will be nominally under extracted. That's fine you make drinks for your own preference etc. Again I am not making a shot to be diluted by milk but just to drink , there in lies the difference between us and the advice we give.

Over the years I have seen so many people post about sour coffee, not enjoying the espresso or wanting to enjoy it more and yet never go beyond a 1:2 ratio when they are 90% of the time probably nominally more than likely "under extracting ".

Reading one of the latest Scott Rao blogs ,its the same in the coffee industry too, when he gets baristas to taste 1:3 shots neat he starts getting more nods of niceness.

Again if your drinking roasts that are "light" and not enjoying them , its could be that you are dare I say it " under extracting them at 1:1.5-2.


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

Don't get me wrong boots I complete understand where you're coming from as far as people sticking to 1:2 & not moving from it because it is some kind of 'magic ratio' which is obviously a load of nonsense...

I do however think there is some flavour wiggle room at all ratios with the variable being grind... meaning if 1:2 is sour you can make it less sour by grinding finer and keeping the ratio the same (increasing extraction via increased time), increasing yield is a more powerful variable tho no miss-understanding there.

What's funny is I dose 19-21g but don't like to go above 40g in the cup for my milk drinks.

I am currently pulling the Brazil Sao Marco at 19in 45-50out & this is an example of what I am talking about, the taste is fine but the mouthfeel is not there. For me it's too weak to stand up in the milk.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

HowardSmith said:


> Don't get me wrong boots I complete understand where you're coming from as far as people sticking to 1:2 & not moving from it because it is some kind of 'magic ratio' which is obviously a load of nonsense...
> 
> I do however think there is some flavour wiggle room at all ratios with the variable being grind... meaning if 1:2 is sour you can make it less sour by grinding finer and keeping the ratio the same (increasing extraction via increased time), increasing yield is a more powerful variable tho no miss-understanding there.
> 
> ...


Mouthfeel is an odd one, it even more subjective than taste and IMHO can be to do with origin of bean more than anything.

There is plenty of wiggle room with ratios and grinding finer with 1:2 will get you more sweetness , depending on the coffee and the roast and the grinder this ratio is always gonna have a ceiling for extraction.

In the sticky on here we talk of setting a ratio , getting it sweet and evaluating the stength for personal preference. If weak go this way, if strong go this way.

Brew ratio sets your strength, for me , I am not a fan of " strong " espresso , it befuddles my brain and taste buds.

Lastly re 1:2 and not moving from it. You do see across the internet alot of, my shot is extracting well it's 1:2 in 30 seconds but it tastes bad.....it must be the coffee, the grinder, im not pressure profiling , my water.......

It's hard, a recipe will get you so far but when people start out they lack the confidence to taste and adjust, so gravitate towards the numbers they see as a comfort blanket, especially when milk will ultimately sweeten and cure alot of evils anyway.


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