# Sage DB versus Expo Brewtus Shootout Results



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hi this thread is for Gary to post his comments , findings and musings as he goes along .Please post all other comments and questions relating to this shoot out on the existing Sage Or Expobar thread here - http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?13310-Sage-BES920UK-or-Expobar-Brewtus-or-something-else .

This is so we have a thread for information and review on these machines, that we can refer to in the future. Any non Gary postings will get moved over to the existing thread. All yours Gary .....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Ok . Science test number 1 & 2

Number 1 noise. Below is how loud they are at full pelt / full pressure

Number 2 pressure readings. Same video below. Sage is OPV'd @10BAR. Expo @10.5BAR (Gauge and Manometer confirm each other)






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2nd time of using the steam wand on the machine I actually tried to screw the milk up by not bothering to stetch at all. The result glorious silky microfoam, I was in such shock I failed to do a decent pour

https://twitter.com/garydyke1/status...280896/photo/1


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

OK. My first side-by-side taste test.

I left the Sage on 7 seconds preinfusion , 55% & wanted to replicate the same with Brewtus.

So I started Brewtus pump then immediately cut the pump but left the flow until 7 seconds then re-engaged the pump. Same output achieved as the Sage but 1-2 seconds quicker. Thats a pretty good first stab. Produced a double from each, split pour & subsequently a 5.5oz cappuccino.

20 > 34g > 33 seconds (7 sec without the pump 'preinfusion')

Brewtus - pour looked better , more uniform and steady, however crema in end cup wasnt as good as the Sage (bubbly versus shiny), excellent mouthfeel, more gloopy, a lot more going on and very sweet. lovely even stone cold

20 > 34g >34-35 seconds (7 sec true preinfusion)

Sage - Pour hesitant to start..drip drip drip..then a flow, visually a lovely shiny crema, thinner mouthfeel, perhaps cleaner , more clarity & definition, fairly sweet and balanced. Touch roasty when cold.

The cappuccinos were fairly equal on flavour, perhaps more chocolate on Brewtus and more ''nice coffee'' from the Sage. The mouthfeel of the Sage microfoam is more pillowy and thick but Brewtus is also very very good.

Pucks looked identical and both knocked out clean.

Now as the Sage has volumetrics , setting it to flow meter cycles would mean not having to monitor the shot at all , press a button walk away, whereas Brewtus obviously need manual intervention at the set 33 seconds, this hinders milk steaming.

Would I turn either shot/cappa down? No they were both of excellent standard


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Using the SCACE temperature probe and Fluke thermometer, some interesting results! (note the portafilters not fully hot)

Expobar, machine fully warmed up with reading of 93c on the PID after 30 seconds with the pump on - 88.8c !!!!!

Sage , machine fully warmed up with reading of 93c on Display after 30 seconds with pump on - 90.6c

I think I need to change the offset on Expo's PID. Just goes to show calibrating with just the gurgling sound @100c isnt accurate enough.

Im going to redo the tests once the portafilters have got fully hot.....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

After adjusting the offset on the Expo and letting respective portafilters heat up fully:-

Expobar, machine fully warmed up with reading of 93c on the PID after 30 seconds with the pump on - 93.0c & stays rock solid with no deviation for a further 30 seconds

Sage , machine fully warmed up with reading of 93c on Display after 30 seconds with pump on - 91.5c & stays rock solid with only +/- 0.1c deviation either way during the following 30 seconds.

That pretty darn impressive, the kitchen is cold today. Wouldnt suprise me if on a hotter day the Sage readout was closer to 93c

EDIT - temps after a full 90 mins use


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The preinfusion on the Sage is flipping ace. Set to 55% : -

7 seconds . 18g into 28g in 38 seconds, channelling apparent. Grind too fine. Taste NOT GOOD.

20 seconds. 18g into 28.5g in 43 seconds, flow started BEFORE full pressure. Thicker body, deliciously sweet. Yum

30 seconds. 18g into 28.8g in 44 seconds, flow started and fully formed under 2 BAR. Different again, still sweet but more focus'd more clear fruit flavours.

Note that the longer the preinfusion the QUICKER the flow after full pressure reached.

This machine allows some Slayer-like tweeking of cup profiles. I didnt even need to change the grind setting. The Expo would have had me grinding coarser and drifting even further south of ideal extraction % & I would have had to run more water through to get sweetness, sacrificing mouthfeel.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Charliej said:


> Gaary out of interest what do expobar state as the tolerance on the Brewtus, I know Sage state +/-1, that said ability to adjust the offset rather than just set temperature is an advantage in this situation.


The standard offset differs from what Bella Barista set them to? In anycase my machine was way out. The e61 is bloody rock-solid tho. switching to the correct offset and changing from c to f , it still doesnt move 1 degree! Must be all that brass


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Scace readings with correct offset - First up the Expobar






Note once at 93.0c it stays that way for 30 seconds before I get bored


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Next up Sage DB after exactly the same shot timing






Note once at 91.5 it stays within 0.1c for 30 seconds


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The geek within me couldnt sleep last night & I decided to calibrate the SCACE and Fluke against boiling water (a rolling boil in a copper bottom pan) the highest it would go was 99.1c (my food temp probe shows 99.8c). Taking this into account :

The Sage is actually operating at *92.4c*

The Expo wasnt as far out as indicated. So Ive backed off the offset .(Will re run this in 1 hour)


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

and this is why

Altitude, ft Boiling point of water, °F

0' (0m) 212°F (100°C)

500' (152.4m) 211.1°F (99.5°C)

*1,000' (304.8m) 210.2°F (99°C) *

2,000' (609.6m) 208.4°F (98°C)

5,000' (1524m) 203°F (95°C)

6,000' (1828.8m) 201.1°F (94°C)

8,000' (2438.4m) 197.4°F (91.9°C)

10,000' (3048m) 193.6°F (89.8°C)

12,000' (3657.6m) 189.8°F (87.6°C)

14,000' (4267.2m) 185.9°F (85.5°C)

Means the SCACE / Fluke is absolutely SPOT ON!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Absolutely loving the Volumetrics on the Sage.

Dialling in Lusty Glaze 18g > 28g > 30 seconds (10 seconds preinfusion) I set the 2 cup button to run 30 seconds

Shot one 28.8g

Shot two 27.9g

Switching to flow meter and repeating the shot

Shot one 28.5g in 29 seconds

Shot two 27.8g in 30 seconds

All 4 shots tasted so similar I had to mentally give the machine a round of applause.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Hands-on coffee roasters 'Lusty glaze' - side by side shots on Sage and Expo. same shot time, output and calibrated temp. 18g>28-29g>28-30sec>93c This blend is as dark a roast as I like for straight espresso. 3-4 shots on each

Sage - presents a brighter cup profile, revealing fruiter and 'rustic' notes. Clean and lighter bodied. Clarity is there. 7/10

Expo - sweeter, gloopier, full bodied and more chocolate. Perhaps more harmonious but less defined. 7.5/10

I think Expo Brewtus wins this battle but another mouth might argue otherwise.

Next stop Has Bean, Bolivia, David Vilca, Washed - a much more complex Single Estate coffee, good versus test for these two super machines.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Absolutely loving the Volumetrics on the Sage.
> 
> Dialling in Lusty Glaze 18g > 28g > 30 seconds (10 seconds preinfusion) I set the 2 cup button to run 30 seconds
> 
> ...


Dont know why but today Ive not been able to replicate the same consistency with flow meter volumetrics.

Shot 1 (ie me setting it) 28.3g (29 seconds)

Shot 2 26.9g (29 seconds)

Shot 3 22.4g (28 seconds)

Very odd. It was rock solid before and now it drifts all over the place.

If I set this to 29 seconds , then 3 consecutive shots give me within 0.5g output. So I cant blame my technique or grinder variation.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Just checking I can post again. Such a shame I've not been able to access this thread over the past weeks . Will be struggling for time to do much testing now back to normal manic work : (

Will try to take some video footage of the Sage in action before I have to return it. Brewtus has seen very little use over Xmas but some side by side testing has happened.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Sadly I need to send the SCACE and Fluke onto the next tester. Happens to be Jeremy @ Prufrock, Leather Lane. They have one for testing ; )


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Alas they've arrange the delivery themselves : (


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Fully aware ive gone quiet on this . A lot of personal stuff going on right now so apologies coffee hasn't been a priority.

Intend to take some footage this weekend and put together a final summary


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Video action for you


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I have to stress that the steam boiler pressure was as low as possible. It takes twice as long to steam for 2 drinks but I was training someone and forgot to change the settings


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Expo workflow for comparison


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Well the 'cleaning' function on the machine is very simple. Place espresso machine cleaner (or one of the supplied tablets) into rubber blanking disk, insert portafilter into group, press a couple of buttons and walk away. It counts down from 350 seconds or so and automatically does all the flushing and rinsing.

Next I might try the descaling procedure , if its as easy then Ill have a grin on my face. ...unlike the HOURS of flushing with the Expo.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Well Brewtus is packed , paid for and ready to be shipped to a new loving home. I will miss an amazing machine which I think still cannot be bettered for c.£1000

Look at my signature (admittedly I got a bargain but) - I think that speaks for itself!

Full closure to this thread coming this weekend


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Ooohh..suspected this might be happening but still surprised. Says a lot for the machine that someone of your knowledge and experience has swapped their beloved Expo for it.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Its a combination of unbeatable simplicity, convenience and importantly results in the cup


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Which is where the debate started after I claimed this for the machine. I do feel vindicated in my original thoughts about the Sage and not coloured by the bargains we both got.


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## drude (Apr 22, 2013)

This is a very impressive result for the Sage. It was a clear upgrade for Charlie from the classic but a crossgrade for Gary, so it says a lot for the machine. Shrewd work form Sage loaning those demo machines...


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

drude said:


> Shrewd work form Sage loaning those demo machines...


Absolutely.

I would have done exactly the same as Gary, and he would have been foolish not to.

3 year old machine, sold for £800. (Mine cost £1000 2 years ago) exchanged for what is essentially a barely used machine at a cost that I'm guessing was too good to turn down. Both he and Charlie will have been told not to reveal the price but I'm thinking it was likely to be little more or very possibly less than £500. If so, that would be an essentially new machine plus £300 in the pocket.

Sage get to say that 'the biggest coffee geek' has shunned the Brewtus (their biggest competitor) for one of their machines.

Everybody's a winner


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## Dr Steve (Nov 25, 2013)

Until he sells the Sage for a profit and buys something else


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Well, if my calculations are correct and he sells the Sage for £900 he could buy a brand new Brewtus


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Expobarista said:


> Well, if my calculations are correct and he sells the Sage for £900 he could buy a brand new Brewtus


Eyes on a rotary perhaps


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

Gary, if a new Brewtus was available at the same price as what you paid for the Sage, what would you have bought and why?

Isn't that really what this thread is about?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

The Brewtus "still cannot be bettered for c.£1000". Like Expo said would make sense if the Sage was a bargain.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Final ramblings- apologies , v dis organised, done in between work calls :

*Espresso*

This all depends what youre looking for. The e61 creates a shot with a thicker mouthfeel, the Sage (no matter what

you do) seems to come out slightly thinner. Where the Sage comes into its own though is clarity of flavour, and, for that matter, aroma. The expo maybe

more lucious and sweet, the Sage more direct, clear and focused. Im sure in time I will fully understand the impact of preinfusion parameters

however so far I can say this - one coffee can be turned into several different cup profiles without even touching the grind setting, or temp.You can

actually 'dial-in' different coffees without changing the grind setting & usually not to the total detriment of the espresso shots! The standard preinfusion

parameters and temperature stability means that the Sage almost auto-corrects defects in shot prep, whereas the e61 can cruely expose barista errors. The Expo thus is capable of giving you a sink shot or a god shot depending on your shot prep, whereas the Sage will always give something drinkable & if you get it right, awesome.

It perhaps cannot reach the absolute 10/10 'definition' of a god shot due to the mouthfeel (or lack of).

But I feel that I am more ''thoroughly extacting'' espresso than ever before with the Sage, over-extracting Has bean coffee? Didnt think it was possible until now!

FOR MY PALATE - SAGE WINS BUT IN REALITY ITS 50/50

*Milk*

The Sage milk-steaming capability isnt about speed, its about consistancy and unbelievely silky latte-art friendly microfoam, note it is a 'burn-me'

wand. The tip makes it so user-friendly that Laura (first go) created better foam than I ever achieved with Brewtus even after months of practice.

The Expo is a powerful steamer with 2 or 3 hole tip & quite forgiving with the 1 hole, although this still takes your attention to get right. If youre steaming large

pitchers of milk all the time then the Sage might take a little bit too long for you, even with boiler temp turned to 140 - but it is worth the wait IMO. I prefer

the lever to a knob, it gives more control and a quicker on/off. SAGE WINS

*Functionality*

Although sharing a common goal the expo is very traditional , the Sage is hi-tech. Where the Sage streaks ahead is ease of use, convenience and tweekability.

The e61 system uses a lot of water for flushing the group head, no doubt about it. The Sage can be programmed to do a 5 seconds flush with one button, this is

very effective at removing coffee grounds from the group and uses 10-20ml water. The drip tray is huge on the Expo (it needs to be). The Sage has ability to press a single button and have a shot for x seconds or x volume. You can forget about it while you steam milk or clean up. Preinfusion seems to be built into the e61 group

however the impact of the variable preinfusion on the Sage is nothing short of dramatic! Choose any preinfusion time or % - in combination with temperature you have any number of cup profiles! once you learn what this can do its mind blowing. Being able to fill the water tank from the front of the machine without removing cups is a godsend on the Sage, the water level sight-glass is genius. SAGE WINS

*Maintenance*

The Expo is a solid performer, you cannot deny the bomb-proof nature of build quality

- ive said it before the Expo will live on longer than me, Id expect to be replacing (substantial bits of) the Sage in 3-5 years. Descaling the Expo is a PITA, so

much flushing , its something to dread twice a year (prevention is better than cure)

The sage has very simple backflushing and descaling routines which are mainly automated, press a button and walk away - you can directly drain the Sage boilers!

e61 gaskets , group seals etc are all cheap and easy to replace. Im not sure on how easy such tasks are on the Sage. The front of the Sage drip trap is already

slightly dented (only cosmetic), whereas Id need a brick to dent the Expo.

*longevity - EXPO WINS*

*
Ease to live with - SAGE WINS*

So which one would I buy, if buying new again? So hard to answer , they both make great coffee.

The Sage has some niggles which need addressing:-

-Portafilter spouts which are wider (this is critism of the Expo stock ones also)

-pre AND post infusion - aka pressure profiling - software update maybe?!

-slight redesign of drip tray , water can collect.

-overide of the auto-power-save - software update maybe?!

Hand on heart - If the sage was £1k with the 5 yr warranty I would buy it, its the easier machine to live with. An absolute ristretto purist may get on better with the e61 for that thick full bodied mouthfeel, then again they should own a lever machine anyway...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Thanks Gary for the time you've spent on this . , ill get Glen to lock this thread . Any questions, queries, and comments can you please post on the Q & A thread. So this can be kept clear as a review thread

thanks


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Thanks for your time and effort on all of this Gary. It's also been a godsend for me having you also reviewing the machine, as at times with all the controversy surrounding the machine initially there were times when I was starting to question my own sanity and conclusions about the machine. All Sage or parent company Breville Australia need to do now is make a grinder with the same level of control and ease of use but a decent sized burr set i.e. 64mm + or large conical.


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