# High End Grinders



## michaelg

A lot of us get excited about coffee shops with the higher end espresso machines such as the Slayers and La Marzoccos etc but given our constant message of how important the grinder is in the whole equation, I guess there's less focus on where has the better grinders to experience the wider flavour palate available from these more 'boutique' grinders.

How about we post here anywhere local to us which has some nicer grinders? I'm particularly curious about Glasgow (and I suppose Edinburgh too) seeing as I live there but I realise there's people from all over so don't want to limit it to one City.

Mainly I'd just like to know where I could experience the taste of the benefit of the better grinders to see if I could ever justify an upgrade or whether I just don't have a developed enough palate to tell which could be likely!


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## Mrboots2u

Ill get you started

My cafe in Lancaster uses a Robur E for its permanent and a Tanzania for its guest espresso....


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## michaelg

What's a Tanzania? I need to work on my grinder identification skills. Think we could use a chart with pictures of each to help out the less clued up like me


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## Mrboots2u

http://www.mahlkoenig.com/us_products/Tanzania.html

It's really a brew grinder ! But they use it for their guest with surprisingly good results, me and CC had a nice shot of it while back. 80mm burrs

It's major draw back is adjustment mechanism.

The robur e is a beast but delivers fast and straight into the pf .


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## Neill

New shop in our town has just opened has an uber grinder for brewed and an anfim (not sure of the model) for espresso.


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## michaelg

Looks pretty interesting - like something dfk should add to his shopping list!


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## Mrboots2u

Neill said:


> New shop in our town has just opened has an uber grinder for brewed and an anfim (not sure of the model) for espresso.


Doser or on demand anfim?

its a shame you don't see the variety in grinders in general, we'll not up north .

marks and Spencer's here have a mythos lol .


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## Neill

Mrboots2u said:


> Doser or on demand anfim?
> 
> its a shame you don't see the variety in grinders in general, we'll not up north .
> 
> marks and Spencer's here have a mythos lol .


You don't have a huge selection of great coffee shops up here despite there being a lot of coffee shops so it's great to see people who really care about their coffee opening in Coleraine. I didn't really have a good look at the anfim, I think it has a doser but seems to be an on demand model? I'll ask sometime. The brewed coffee was incredible. They use Kalita waves as opposed to v60s.


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## Neill

The uber grinder is a Tanzania with a custom made burr set in it apparently.


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## Charliej

One of the local roasters has 3 shops which are primarily retail outlets with coffee shops, 2 espresso bars, and a coffee cart, they all use LM FB70 machines paired with K30 Varios, but frustratingly although they roast some excellent beans their "house blend" is some nasty carbonised french roast thing and is plain nasty, it's that dark it could call The Emperor to the Dark Side and I wouldn't have it anywhere near my grinder, imagine bean shaped lumps of BBQ charcoal with a coating of used engine oil from a reps BMW and thats about right for it. Other than in my kitchen the best coffee in Chorley is from a coffee van called The Coffee Cow who is outside the railway station at both rush hours and uses a Limini blend with a Major and a Fracino gas powered Retro lever machine.

There's an "Italian" cafe next door to the Reebok stadium that I haven't tried yet that appears to have the UKBC spec San Remo machine and a nice looking(from a distance) OD grinder but haven't tried it yet but I don't have high hopes for it.


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## The Systemic Kid

Two coffee shops in Madchester have EK43s and Roburs - impressive.


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## Charliej

The Systemic Kid said:


> Two coffee shops in Madchester have EK43s and Roburs - impressive.


We just don't seem to have much in between Lancaster and Manchester though.


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## aaronb

My favourite local has an Anfim on demand for espresso. Can't remember what the filter grinder is of hand.

Really need to get to a cafe with an EK43 soon.


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## Neill

Just noticed this has appeared in established in Belfast, that and the ek will be some pairing.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/437548369159127040


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## El carajillo

Charliej said:


> We just don't seem to have much in between Lancaster and Manchester though.


Even less in Worcestershire:confused:


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## oracleoftruth

Had a fantastic experience of an ek43 in upshot in sheffield.


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## fatboyslim

Anywhere in London with ek43?


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## jakeapeters

fatboyslim said:


> Anywhere in London with ek43?


Bulldog Edition have got one (in the lobby of the Ace Hotel Shoreditch) - they're worth a visit!


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## fatboyslim

jakeapeters said:


> Bulldog Edition have got one (in the lobby of the Ace Hotel Shoreditch) - they're worth a visit!


Are they using it for espresso a la perger?


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## jakeapeters

fatboyslim said:


> Are they using it for espresso a la perger?


When I went they were doing EK espresso and coffee shots. Both of which I thought we're pretty tasty!


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## jeebsy

Craft Coffee use EK43 for espresso, just off Brick Lane. Highly recommend them


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## garydyke1

But which burrs?


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## jakeapeters

Alchemy have one too actually, think they're using the fish burrs.


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## dwalsh1

What's with this EK43 thing? Everybody was happy with Roburs not so long ago.


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## The Systemic Kid

dwalsh1 said:


> What's with this EK43 thing? Everybody was happy with Roburs not so long ago.


Very good question! The EK43 has been around for quite a long time with nobody taking much interest in it as a top end coffee grinder until Matt Perger came along and used it in his WBC routine. Its main supposed plus is its ability to produce very accurate particle size distribution which permits extractions 20%plus without the coffee tasting bitter. Most grinder give out at 20% that is, they can't produce extractions higher than that which are drinkable. The other plus is the EK's ability to be able to produce similar quality grind for pour over. Watch this space - some forum members are shortly taking delivery on them and then we will see if the hype is true.


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## Charliej

dwalsh1 said:


> What's with this EK43 thing? Everybody was happy with Roburs not so long ago.


I suspect a large degree of The Emperors New Clothes Den, particularly as it has been said that the espresso from it is different not better than from a more normal grinder.


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## The Systemic Kid

Charliej said:


> I suspect a large degree of The Emperors New Clothes Den, particularly as it has been said that the espresso from it is different not better than from a more normal grinder.


Er, not what Matt Perger found, Charlie.


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## The Systemic Kid

Have a read of the tests on several grinders on Matt Perger's website and the hand on tasting tests done by comingsooncoffee

http://comingsooncoffee.wordpress.com/tag/ek43-mazzer-robur-e-eureka-olympus-kr-compak-k10-eureka-olympis-75-on-demand-anfirm-doser-with-timer-mahlkonig-ek43-ek43-spring-lever-machine-bosco-spring-lever-espresso-machine/


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## Mrboots2u

Charliej said:


> I suspect a large degree of The Emperors New Clothes Den, particularly as it has been said that the espresso from it is different not better than from a more normal grinder.


Excellent scientific analysis there ....,,,,

have you had a shot of one yet ? I haven't , so I'll reserve my opinion Til I do l

i own a lever all , your Machine to me is the emperors new clothes ....







all buttons , knobs and lights ....

i shall reserve judgement until I've had the chance to drink and few tipples from it.

I know that people's whoose opinion I respect and who have taste buds better than mine, are intrigued enough to get one ,try it and make a judgement .


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## Charliej

I don't doubt at all in the slightest about it being a good machine, but it was Colin Harmon who 1st remarked that it was good but different, not necessarily better than any other grinder and a few other such people have also made similar remarks. Coffee whether domestic or retail outlets, like any other are sees, I don't think the words trends or fads or bandwagons etc are right here but you get the idea of my meaning, a degree of the "must have" shiny new ideas and toys. I would also suggest that if the people who put time energy and research into building new grinders really thought that it was better than anything else out there and capable of being all things to all men then they would have come up with something new but based on the same idea as an EK43. Consider that there are also plenty of "luminaries" of the coffee world across the globe that aren't going down this route, and the numbers in this group are far larger than those who have gone with an EK43.

The proof will be in the using, for those of you with far far deeper pockets than I, but I would love to see a double blind taste test making shots to more traditional extraction values using the top end Titan grinders and the new ones from Mazzer and NS against an EK43, as well have a degree of bias, albeit unconsciously towards the kit we own.


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## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> I don't doubt at all in the slightest about it being a good machine, but it was Colin Harmon who 1st remarked that it was good but different, not necessarily better than any other grinder and a few other such people have also made similar remarks. Coffee whether domestic or retail outlets, like any other are sees, I don't think the words trends or fads or bandwagons etc are right here but you get the idea of my meaning, a degree of the "must have" shiny new ideas and toys. I would also suggest that if the people who put time energy and research into building new grinders really thought that it was better than anything else out there and capable of being all things to all men then they would have come up with something new but based on the same idea as an EK43. Consider that there are also plenty of "luminaries" of the coffee world across the globe that aren't going down this route, and the numbers in this group are far larger than those who have gone with an EK43.
> 
> The proof will be in the using, for those of you with far far deeper pockets than I, but I would love to see a double blind taste test making shots to more traditional extraction values using the top end Titan grinders and the new ones from Mazzer and NS against an EK43, as well have a degree of bias, albeit unconsciously towards the kit we own.


No, he said it was better :

''Overall we've seen an increase in the quality of the espresso. It is definitely cleaner, sweeter and more aromatic than what we were producing before. We also have less waste, spend little to no time dialing in/redialling and have the ability to have any number of coffees on offer as espresso at any one time.

This brings me to a rather selfish bonus in that we now serve kenyan and washed ethiopian coffee as espresso quite regularly where as before it was something I rarely did. The acidity in the more floral/tealike/delicate coffees we have access to often manifested itself as soapiness and sourness once it hit an espresso machine. To me the EK brings a sweetness and clarity to these coffees but mellows out the sourness as the TDS drops.''

NB - Using the Turkish burrs. 3FE were not serving 'coffeeshots' as they were waiting for the 'coffee burrs'


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## Charliej

Gary I think the statement I referred to was made when he was explaining why they stopped using it and went over to the new NS Climapro grinder, others have also said it isn't a grinder for everyone as well.


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## Mrboots2u

No one has said it is the grinder for everyone

none of us has really tried it yet

i reserve judgement Til I do , so should you

new stuff is exciting and can result in different and better tastes


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## garydyke1

The take home synopsis from that was :

''So am I against EK43s being used on bar? Quite the opposite actually. Most coffee shops worth their salt these days do a "guest coffee', namely another option for usually a few cents extra. In my experience this coffee is usually quite disappointing. It's not dialled in properly, there's not enough in the hopper and what is in there has probably been sitting there for a few days.

Even if you were to get a decent shot of it the barista would probably have to purge the guts of 50g through before crossing her fingers that the grinder is behaving something similar to what it was when it was dialled in 4 hours ago. The upshot of this scenario is that the customer takes a risk on "specialty coffee" and gets an expensive, disappointing experience. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying it can't be done efficiently.

I see the Ek43 as the perfect solution to this problem. I reckon most "guest" coffees amount to 10% of a shops sales and using the EK43 for your guest coffee is not just achievable but would mean you can pretty much guarantee a delicious espresso every time. Add to that the fact that you can use the EK as a bag/filter grinder means that you'll save yourself a fortune by having to only fork out on 2 grinders instead of 3. You could also use it for coffee shots, if you're that way inclined*. It's also worth noting that if yours is a shop that goes the low volume/high quality route, the EK43 is the grinder for you.

If I was opening a shop tomorrow I would prioritise a purchase of an EK43. It can be used for decaf/guest/filter/bag grinding all for the cost of one grinder. If you need further reasons why you need one, you have more problems than just grinders. I am very much still an EK43 fan boy, just not for full-blown service.

This week we made 50 more coffees a day than we usually do and that would have been impossible with only an EK43 to make coffee with.''

''It's also worth noting that if yours is a shop that goes the low volume/high quality route, the EK43 is the grinder for you.'' = homeuser

''It can be used for decaf/guest/filter/bag grinding all for the cost of one grinder'' = homeuser


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## garydyke1

Will someone PLEASE send me an EK43 for a couple of weeks. I will pay you for the loan


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## The Systemic Kid

garydyke1 said:


> Will someone PLEASE send me an EK43 for a couple of weeks. I will pay you for the loan


Gary, don't be greedy - I know what you're getting!


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## garydyke1

Word spreads fast . I said I'd pay


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## garydyke1




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## MWJB

Charliej said:


> Consider that there are also plenty of "luminaries" of the coffee world across the globe that aren't going down this route, and the numbers in this group are far larger than those who have gone with an EK43.
> 
> The proof will be in the using, for those of you with far far deeper pockets than I, but I would love to see a double blind taste test making shots to more traditional extraction values using the top end Titan grinders and the new ones from Mazzer and NS against an EK43, as well have a degree of bias, albeit unconsciously towards the kit we own.


Is there a public poll of those who have used the EK43 that think that either the grinder, or the philosophy of a more modal grind carries no benefit? If you haven't tried something it's easy to comment, but is that comment informed? I haven't tried it either, I don't know whether EK43 always = better (as you say, even established users have commented on 'swings & roundabouts'). I can, however, appreciate that the small number of esoteric grinders often discussed have idiosyncrasies & produce different cups. I haven't seen any evidence that there is large majority of "luminaries" who have tried comparisons & reject the EK43, or a more unimodal grind for espresso?

You mention "traditional extraction values"? How would you define/identify these? Espresso was originally a method for producing cups fast, subsequently people started to define parameters that espresso conformed to (Illy, Sivetz, etc.), but not until the establishment of the specialty coffee bodies and work by VST, or Andy Schecter does yield specifically seem to have figured much (I could well stand to be corrected if you have references), other than being implied by vague ranges of %TDS. "Traditional" espresso to most folk suggests a darker roasted bean, more soluble, less inclined to be limited the 20% hard limit imposed by commonly used bimodal grinders...therefore less relevant to clearer, higher extractions of lighter roasted SO beans (the idea behind using the EK43).

When we hear the word "espresso", we immediately think of a beverage that we enjoy, made to our taste...not necessarily a drink that conforms entirely to "traditional", or "3rd wave", or anywhere in between. What I mean is that there tends to be aspects that we arbitrarily take, or leave, mix & match from existing definitions/philosophies rather than right/wrong, normal/abnormal, etc.

Deliberately underextracting an EK34 shot isn't going to give a meaningful comparison to

Ahh, the old "double-blind" defence  We're talking about elective purchase & use of an appliance by people with a track record in excellence, not proving efficacy of a medical product vs placebo. How would you define "control" vs "test" when discussing a small range of esoteric grinders? How & where would you coordinate baristas, grinders, servers? How would you select an unbiased consumer sample...no one on this thread, or vocal on the pros/cons on other fora would make a good candidate. How would you, or who would, pay for such a test? Nothing wrong with the double-blind test as concept, but practicalities are commonly overlooked, do it properly...or you may as well suggest that we wait for the Martians to land & cast the deciding vote! ;-)

We take each others (including yours) comments a face value on coffees, machines & grinders on a daily basis...why now move the goalposts?

The EK43, whilst exploding into the public consciousness really last year, was identified, what, 5 years ago for certain unique attributes. This hasn't suddenly happened, overnight.

Sorry, I got carried away as usual, but I'm certainly not ranting, nor are all of these thoughts directed specifically at you Charlie, just relevant to some of the concepts touched on.


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## Charliej

Mark,

Plenty does not imply a majority, I've been reading the online stuff about the EK43 as well, and as had been said it is not a "magic bullet", by traditional extraction values I mean the % TDS value range that seems often discussed as being "ideal" i.e. the SCAA or is it SCAE chart.

You speak of "deliberately underextracting" an EK 43 shot why do you say this when surely it's a case of dialling it in to your needs after all extraction yields greater than 20% aren't going to be to everyones tastes and if it can grind for extraction yields greater than 20% it must surely be able to grind to achieve yields under 20% too, I think if you look to Australia you will find the users there aren't going to all be using lighter roasts, quite often Aussies visiting the UK remark that a lot of roasts are indeed too light generally speaking.

Regarding double blind tests they are in fact very easy to set up in the case of coffee tasting, all you need is a selection of grinders commonly held to be the "best" available, a panel of people with respected tasting credentials, we have at the very least 2 of those here, Gary and Glenn, and 2-4 coffees from a range of tastes/roasts and the panel sit in a different room and are presented with the coffee to taste it, it's not hard to do. That is if you are interested in finding out if the EK43 is better or just different.

You talk of moving the goalposts, surely this is exactly what Kaminsky and Perger et all are actually doing or trying to do.

Finally without someone to play devils advocate it may be that some questions don't get answered in the rush to get the "next big thing"-this is not a go at any of you buying one, I just don't think that it can or will ever be a universal panacea for the issues that grinders more traditionally used have or as my Grandmother used to say "don't throw the baby out with the bath water". In this case "different" doesn't not imply that it is better based on a relatively small number of people inside a relatively small community. Being different may lead us to new design ideas for grinders, we already have 2 new and opposite paradigms with grinders unveiled last year, the NS Clima Pro with it's keep it at a warm but steady temperature and the Mazzer Kold with it's keep it at a steady but cool temperature approach. They both have their own and very good reasons for going with the different philosophies.

For me time would be better spent exploring what makes it so different from other grinders and looking at ways of making use of this knowledge in the design of a new generation of grinders


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## michaelg

Charliej said:


> Mark,
> 
> Regarding double blind tests they are in fact very easy to set up in the case of coffee tasting, all you need is a selection of grinders commonly held to be the "best" available, a panel of people with respected tasting credentials, we have at the very least 2 of those here, Gary and Glenn, and 2-4 coffees from a range of tastes/roasts and the panel sit in a different room and are presented with the coffee to taste it, it's not hard to do. That is if you are interested in finding out if the EK43 is better or just different.


Strictly speaking, this is single-blind. It's hard for someone making a coffee for a panel of judges not to know which grinder, beans etc they used. If they know that introduces bias. They'd have to be provided by the pre-ground beans by a third party who had dialled them in previously . It's not so straightforward. I project manage clinical trials for a living


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## Mrboots2u

Why are you so bothered people are trying new-old grinders out ?

Change can be fun !

Wait Til you tasted coffee from one ,

There is no conspiracy to get all shops to use them .

people can go to lectures , read and listen , try coffee from one and see if they like it .

llke most things some people will thing they are good and make great coffee

some will think they are not so good and make coffee they don't think is so great .

A blind taste test with 4 People will tell you what those people PREFER.


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## michaelg

Mrboots2u said:


> Why are you so bothered people are trying new-old grinders out ?
> 
> Change can be fun !
> 
> Wait Til you tasted coffee from one ,
> 
> There is no conspiracy to get all shops to use them .
> 
> people can go to lectures , read and listen , try coffee from one and see if they like it .
> 
> llke most things some people will thing they are good and make great coffee
> 
> some will think they are not so good and make coffee they don't think is so great .
> 
> A blind taste test with 4 People will tell you what those people PREFER.


Is this a poem? The structure looks like it's in free verse


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## The Systemic Kid

Charliej said:


> Plenty does not imply a majority, I've been reading the online stuff about the EK43 as well, and as had been said it is not a "magic bullet", by traditional extraction values I mean the % TDS value range that seems often discussed as being "ideal" i.e. the SCAA or is it SCAE chart.


Charlie, the buzz about the EK43 is its potential to break the top limit of the extraction range without adding more bitterness. Consequently, it doesn't conform to the SCAA, SCAE or any other reference chart for extraction. Why does it do this? It produces a much more even particle size distribution so the dose in the puck is much more evenly extracted. With grinders producing a much wider particle size distribution, there will inevitably be a proportion of of particles outside the optimum size which will over-extract (adding bitterness) and under-extracting (adding sourness). Subjective tastings of the EK43 talk about shots tasting more multi-layered which are a consequence of the more unimodal grind quality.


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## The Systemic Kid

garydyke1 said:


>


SCAA, SCAE. Now we have SCAB


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## CoffeeJohnny

I've not tried anything from the ek43 yet. However respected people within the coffee industry have taken to using them. A friend of mine who is a very good business man as well as one of the best baristas in the country( if you accept the ukbc as a standard) has taken to using one too, he certainly wouldn't take to using one on a whim. As such I believe there's something to the praise the ek43 has been getting. However would I have one? Unlikely if I'm honest I don't like the look of them and they are out of my price range also I quite like my grinder and is hardly rubbish so no need to swap just yet.


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## 4515

oracleoftruth said:


> Had a fantastic experience of an ek43 in upshot in sheffield.


I need to get myself to Upshot and see what all the EK43 fuss is about


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## Mrboots2u

michaelg said:


> Is this a poem? The structure looks like it's in free verse


Ha ha

it's the happy Monday influence coming in

your twisting my ek man ...


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## MWJB

Charliej said:


> Mark,
> 
> You talk of moving the goalposts, surely this is exactly what Kaminsky and Perger et all are actually doing or trying to do.


From what Matt Perger has written, his idea at first was to access the 2nd half of the chart (20%-22%, though Scott Rao was apparently brewing in the higher range for a while prior). The higher extractions are as much a by-product of low 'fines' & greater clarity...indeed, it can seem at times that ever bigger numbers are the driving force/objective, but it's the taste that really is...the yields somewhat come with the territory. I have extracted brewed coffee to over 28% with normal household grinders, it's not difficult, but it's not clever, nor tasty! ;-).

Formal ext. yield definitions/targets were apparently absent for most of espresso's history, definitions pertained merely to "ml inc crema" & "oz", the odd reference to "solids". Though, I realise this is not entirely pertinent to what you meant. Obviously espresso has always had 'a yield', but only relatively recently defined by such...so it doesn't strike me as particularly "traditional". Less than 18% may be described as underextracted by most standards, it should be easy to underextract with the EK...but that lower limit seems to have to shift up to keep you in that grinder's ideal range of good flavour & who wants to deliberately make poor coffee?



Charliej said:


> For me time would be better spent exploring what makes it so different from other grinders and looking at ways of making use of this knowledge in the design of a new generation of grinders.


+1 on that, and maybe identifying more ideal ranges for existing (OK, I mean "cheaper") grinders?


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## Charliej

What I'm questioning is that is the ability to extract to greater that 20% necessarily a good thing or simply a different thing that is no better and no worse than the way things are currently done. I certainly don't believe there is any conspiracy theory although certain parties have a vested interest in promoting this.

Like every one else I have the right to reserve judgement about this, and I'm certainly doing so in a much less confrontational manner than the way my judgement regarding the Sage (which was subsequently affirmed) was questioned.

If no-one asks questions then part of the learning process is lost, I also think that maybe some of the time would or could be better spent discussing improving grinder technology in general as we all know pretty much every grinder out there has it's own shortcomings and I would suspect that the EK43 is no different in this respect. I know that for me even given enough to purchase one I wouldn't do so yet as I would want to see more of the theory laid out for everyone to see and some form of objective testing carried out.


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## The Systemic Kid

Charliej said:


> What I'm questioning is that is the ability to extract to greater that 20% necessarily a good thing or simply a different thing that is no better and no worse than the way things are currently done. I certainly don't believe there is any conspiracy theory although certain parties have a vested interest in promoting this.


See references, already cited in this thread, to Matt Perger's tests and those done by Commingsooncoffee which I won't repeat here. For most grinders, it would appear they are at their limit, subjective taste-wise, around 19-20% extraction. As Mark notes, he has achieved extractions in region of 28% but they 'weren't tasty'. The EK43 can go above 22% and bring out the sweetness in the coffee where other grinders would be producing more bitterness due to fines over-extraction.


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## jeebsy

Charliej said:


> What I'm questioning is that is the ability to extract to greater that 20% necessarily a good thing or simply a different thing that is no better and no worse than the way things are currently done.


Its better for trendy, lightly roasted SOs


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## coffeechap

Well, mine is here and I can't wait to get cracking on it!!!!!


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## The Systemic Kid

coffeechap said:


> Well, mine is here and I can't wait to get cracking on it!!!!!


Might have known. Looking forward to your findings.


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> Its better for trendy, lightly roasted SOs


Ponders if there are untrendy light roasts also .........

Ponders that he no longers understands what trendy is in any form be it coffee , music , clothes or film.

Wonders where teletext holidays went......


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## 4515

coffeechap said:


> Well, mine is here and I can't wait to get cracking on it!!!!!


You go easy with that grinder - dont want you burning out another new one


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## Mrboots2u

garydyke1 said:


>


I made a graph too.

Grinder versus relationship pain...


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## The Systemic Kid

Is the relationship exponential or logarithmic??


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## Mrboots2u

The Systemic Kid said:


> Is the relationship exponential or logarithmic??


dunno I'll ask her tonight ...

darling is our relationship exponential of logarithmic .....

i have a feeling if I get to the ek43 it f***ed......


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## Soll

coffeechap said:


> Well, mine is here and I can't wait to get cracking on it!!!!!


It was so obvious you were going to have one, our in house grinder guru.

Have you forgot on about the Torr tamper we talked about?


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## 4515

Mrboots2u said:


> I made a graph too.
> 
> Grinder versus relationship pain...


I dont think that this chart is truly accurate. There are a couple of other factors to take into account :

Aesthetics

Time to grind:Noise ration

For example, an ugly, noisy grinder at a low price point could have your man bits in a grinder just a easily as a high priced better looking, quieter grinder

Any chance of some 3D charting to reflect this ?

And does this chart show MRP or the price that we say it cost ?

Edit : This chart also excludes the softening up / Horse factor


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## Mrboots2u

working dog said:


> I dont think that this chart is truly accurate. There are a couple of other factors to take into account :
> 
> Aesthetics
> 
> Time to grind:Noise ration
> 
> For example, an ugly, noisy grinder at a low price point could have your man bits in a grinder just a easily as a high priced better looking, quieter grinder
> 
> Any chance of some 3D charting to reflect this ?
> 
> And does this chart show MRP or the price that we say it cost ?
> 
> Edit : This chart also excludes the softening up / Horse factor


hmm this chart took me literally minutes to perfect and your rubbishing my hard work already.....


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## Mrboots2u

Horse factor added


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## 4515

Mrboots2u said:


> hmm this chart took me literally minutes to perfect and your rubbishing my hard work already.....


Now I feel bad

Hang on, its wearing off


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## Mrboots2u

working dog said:


> Now I feel bad
> 
> Hang on, its wearing off


See above I added horse factor

Happy now ?


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## Daren

From my experience the horse factor needs to be further up the chart


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## garydyke1

I love the horse element of the graph, it could actually be horse-power but then you'd need to swap the Royal and the Kony round on your Axis


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## kikapu

We are seriously lacking in pie charts!









Surely with the horse factor you would be able to have all the grinders on the graph! Except for the fact you wouldn't even be able to afford even an MC2!!


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## Daren

kikapu said:


> We are seriously lacking in pie charts!


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## garydyke1

If this was survival of the fittest then remember the EK is the only grinder capable of grinding the other grinders! lol


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## 4515

Perhaps its a new version of that 80's card game 'top trumps'

Pitting grinders against shoes, handbags, jewellery, romantic meals, weekends away etc

Imagine playing your hand and having the 'horse card'. Just slam it on the table and do the happy dance


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## Mrboots2u

working dog said:


> Perhaps its a new version of that 80's card game 'top trumps'
> 
> Pitting grinders against shoes, handbags, jewellery, romantic meals, weekends away etc
> 
> Imagine playing your hand and having the 'horse card'. Just slam it on the table and do the happy dance


would a horse fit in an ek43...

mmmmmmm value burgers


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## 4515

Mrboots2u said:


> would a horse fit in an ek43...
> 
> mmmmmmm value burgers


Are you thinking more along the lines of paper, scissors, stone ?


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## Mrboots2u

working dog said:


> Are you thinking more along the lines of paper, scissors, stone ?


No I'm thinking would an Ek43 be able to mince up a horse

Bit like the other age old question

Who is harder the hulk or the thing


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## Daren

Would anyone mind lending me an EK43 for a couple of hours.... I should be able to answer the horse v grinder question (I'll have to wait until wife goes out though as she might try and stop me mangling her horse)

And the Hulk is harder (but Spiderman is cooler)


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## The Systemic Kid

Interesting question....let me think for a minute......sorry, no!


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## Daren

What happened to the generous forum spirit? TSK - you've changed!!


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## MWJB

working dog said:


> Are you thinking more along the lines of paper, scissors, stone ?


You mean rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock?


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## The Systemic Kid

Daren said:


> What happened to the generous forum spirit? TSK - you've changed!!


You sound like my mother!


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## Daren

The Systemic Kid said:


> You sound like my mother!


and mothers always right! (so my one keeps telling me)


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## Mrboots2u

The Systemic Kid said:


> You sound like my mother!


Is your mother a mockney mod?


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## Daren

Mrboots2u said:


> Is your mother a mockney mod?


Don't bring my mother into this... Get outa my pub!!!


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## Mrboots2u

That's your Friday night persona isn't it

Daren comes Barbara .......


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## michaelg

Another little piechart for everyone:
View attachment 5665


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## AndyS

Charliej said:


> You speak of "deliberately underextracting" an EK 43 shot why do you say this when surely it's a case of dialling it in to your needs after all extraction yields greater than 20% aren't going to be to everyones tastes and if it can grind for extraction yields greater than 20% it must surely be able to grind to achieve yields under 20% too...
> 
> ....Regarding double blind tests they are in fact very easy to set up in the case of coffee tasting, all you need is a selection of grinders commonly held to be the "best" available, a panel of people with respected tasting credentials, we have at the very least 2 of those here, Gary and Glenn, and 2-4 coffees from a range of tastes/roasts and the panel sit in a different room and are presented with the coffee to taste it, it's not hard to do. That is if you are interested in finding out if the EK43 is better or just different.


Charlie, it's not easy or obvious exactly how to make the most meaningful comparisons. The EK43 shots taste different, yield differently, and end up at very different strengths and/or beverage amounts.



MWJB said:


> You mention "traditional extraction values"? How would you define/identify these?...
> 
> ...Deliberately underextracting an EK34 shot isn't going to give a meaningful comparison to
> 
> Agree 100%. EK43 shots aren't traditional....
> 
> Meanwhile, some initial pros and cons of EK43 compared to Robur (in home use)
> 
> EK43 pros:
> 
> 1. almost 100% of coffee mass going in comes out as grinds (minus the CO2 that escapes to atmosphere, of course)
> 
> 2. changes in beans and/or grind fineness are fully reflected in the very next shot
> 
> 3. higher good-tasting extraction yield means one can use 10-15% less coffee to deliver the same solids mass into your cup
> 
> 4. greater flavor clarity (or so I think -- haven't made blind comparisons)
> 
> EK43 cons:
> 
> 5. slower, multi-step shot prep required
> 
> 6. harder to get extraction yield needed for good taste balance without making relatively dilute shots
> 
> IMO, #5 will greatly improve as people modify their grinders and their prep methods.
> 
> IMO, #3 is extremely significant (and will be even more significant as demand for quality coffee increases and supplies become strained)


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## kikapu

michaelg said:


> Another little piechart for everyone:
> View attachment 5665


I think the brown segment needs to be larger! !


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