# Coffee Supply for New Firm



## newagecoffee (Jun 1, 2012)

Hello all I am new to this forum!

I am currently in the process of searching for a supplier for my new brand of coffee. I have been in contact with growers in India but so far the quality received has been abysmal to say the least! We are looking for a good quality coffee to supply to high end retailers, however we have a strict budget on price at the present time (which we believe represents a fair price). Therefore if anyone knows anyone or is anyone who can help me then please do not hesitate to contact me for further details.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Wow. Sorry for being a bit blunt, but are you for real?


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## newagecoffee (Jun 1, 2012)

Yes indeed I am for real, the concept is prepared, the necessary legals are prepared ready to be filed, finance is in place, company name is established. The issue is our supplier.


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## JamesG (Mar 29, 2012)

Are you looking for direct trade or a coffee importer?

If its the later you could try Mercanta: http://www.coffeehunter.com/


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Interesting. What is the concept and are you planning on doing the roasting yourself?


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## newagecoffee (Jun 1, 2012)

We are looking for roast coffee to have ground prior to packaging and distribution. Therefore I'm looking for a 'middleman' who will buy and roast.


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## newagecoffee (Jun 1, 2012)

Expobarista said:


> Interesting. What is the concept and are you planning on doing the roasting yourself?


No we are not planning of roasting initially, however we have invested in some fairly mean looking grinders, and have a packaging company on board. The concept is we are looking to supply high end coffee, in a fresh modern packaging. A move away from your classic Dowe Eggberts type packing into a more trendy 'Fanta' style consumer friendly coffee.


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I know there are a knowledgeable bunch on here, but really if you are this far down the road and asking for advice now, I'm a little concerned, my friends set up there own roastary and shop and had all aspects of import covered well before they were even close to having a premises. I really wish you all the best but all I can really suggest is mercanta and you have a very steep learning curve ahead of you, I hope you're ready.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

newagecoffee said:


> roast coffee to have ground prior to packaging and distribution





newagecoffee said:


> high end coffee





newagecoffee said:


> a more trendy 'Fanta' style


These three statements are mutually exclusive. As Theo would say, for that reason I'm out.


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

Let me get this straight. You are looking for roasted beans which you are then going to grind and repackage? Is that right?


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

MikeHag said:



> These three statements are mutually exclusive. As Theo would say, for that reason I'm out.


 I agree with Theo I'm out too


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## newagecoffee (Jun 1, 2012)

The 3 statements are not exclusive, this is a new concept, and that is why this has a set of financially sound partners involved. This is not a thread for your opinion I was looking for the correct person to assist me. So in the kindest way, please keep your opinions to yourselves.

To the fellow asking about grinding and repacking I tentatively say I have solved my problem today.


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## newagecoffee (Jun 1, 2012)

geordie-barista said:


> I know there are a knowledgeable bunch on here, but really if you are this far down the road and asking for advice now, I'm a little concerned, my friends set up there own roastary and shop and had all aspects of import covered well before they were even close to having a premises. I really wish you all the best but all I can really suggest is mercanta and you have a very steep learning curve ahead of you, I hope you're ready.


Thanks for your good luck. I have solved I think my sourcing issues today, the issue was not that I am asking for advice, the sources I had banked on turned out to be abysmal! Things are sorted and if you lot are interested I will report back when I have any news of progress to let you know how we do.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

newagecoffee said:


> The 3 statements are not exclusive, this is a new concept, and that is why this has a set of financially sound partners involved. This is not a thread for your opinion I was looking for the correct person to assist me. So in the kindest way, please keep your opinions to yourselves.
> 
> To the fellow asking about grinding and repacking I tentatively say I have solved my problem today.


Whilst it isn't worth getting drawn into a long debate about this, it might be worth remembering that this is a discussion forum and as such "please keep your opinions to yourself" probably isn't in the spirit of the community.

I can understand that you have to present your product as high quality but regardless of the coffee you buy or who roasts it or how it is packaged, if you grind prior to packaging then any quality that was there will have disappeared before it the bag goes on a shelf. That doesn't mean there isn't a market for what you are selling, just that trying to convince a group of coffee enthusiasts that it is high quality was always going to fail.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Hey... what do I know?


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

I must admit I am still a little unclear as to what it is you are looking for - are you looking for an importer of green coffee to partner with so that you can then roast, grind and package?

I am interested in the fact you are trying to sell pre-ground coffee as a high end product offering. Conventional wisdom is that coffee goes stale within 15 minutes of grinding so I guess your new Fanta packaging somehow stops that?


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I'm hoping your venture works for you, obviously, but what is the 'new concept'? It is coming across that the actual coffee is of secondary importance as long as it falls into your strict price category, so what is it about the packaging that is a new concept? Does it maintain freshness? Would the sort of person who buys ground coffee have the first inkling about freshness, or is it merely the labelling and opening/resealing that is new?

Im intrigued, largely because to me, what you are telling us you are trying to do seems almost contradictory. As others have said, ground coffee is not normally considered a 'high end' product.

I hope it goes well for you, and I am interested to know more, particularly in the research you have done to show you that there is a market for your idea.


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

As posted previously not getting into a long debate but the coffee once ground, exposes a exponentially larger surface area to the environment, it means that the oxidising effect happens way quicker, peel and chop an apple into even ten peaces and stick it in a bag see what happens, ground coffee is not a high end product, it stales even before you get it to packaging and it is not in my opinion a product that should be on the shelves of any place that markets itself as high end.

Get a ditting or tanzania if people want to order pre ground grind it at the last minute as there will always be a market for pre ground although I would always try and sell them a grinder even if it meant giving them a couple of bags of coffee.

I genuinely wish you well but would ask that you reconsider pre bagged ground coffee as an idea because that would devalue your brand in the eyes of people with a real knowledge of coffee.

it's only advice do with it what you will but it takes no time to grind a bag of coffee to specification if a customer really wants it.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Aah, serendipity


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

NewAgeCoffee is clearly a marketeer, looking at the venture from a "high street/layman's" perspective. In the rarified atmosphere of this forum it is easy to forget that the vast majority of the population do not own & would not be likely to purchase a decent grinder (MC2 or better) in the next 12 months...if EVER. 20 yrs ago instant coffee made up 80% of the UK coffee market. Things are getting better all the time, but it's a fact of life that any form of coffee that was identifiably once a bean is regarded as "high end". Pre ground coffee will always be around...you don't have to like it, you certainly don't have to buy it, but it's no good pretending it's going to go away either.

Ask yourself, if you stood on a street corner and stopped passers by, how many folk would you find who made coffee at home with whole beans roasted in the last week, ground on a £200+ grinder?

If I wanted to sell coffee to make money (what businesses are supposed to do) and see my product in major supermarket chains (where the majority of the population buy their coffee for home extraction) then I would sell ground coffee....just like Union & others. I laughed at Mike's Dragon's Den allusion, but who would Theo really back, the guy selling freshly roasted wholebean only, or the guy selling that & pre ground?

I have dealt with marketing folk on a regular basis and had to listen to their scripted hyperbole, delivered with earnest, unblinking stares as they tell you that their product (sourced at low price, given an authentic sounding name and an eye catching packaging) is a "premium" product, commanding - or about to - a sizeable chunk of the marketplace...) Premium in these instances relating where it lies on the pricing scale & subsequent degree of mark up. I'm not taken in by NewAgeCoffee's claims (as percieved by the knowledgeable & generally welcoming folk on the forum) for one moment...but on the flip side, it might also be charitable to assume that NewAgeCoffee is aware of the compromises involved with pre ground coffee...they might not care...they might care, but ultimately the "whys & wherefores" fall outside their remit.

Sometimes people just have a question (albeit motivated by desire for a huge mark up) and want a pertinent answer, or does there have to be some qualification to post on this forum? NewAgeCoffee's venture will sink or swim, irrespective of the opinions (however right & well meaning) expressed here. If it swims and they are made to feel welcome, recognising the obvious knowledge available here, is there not more of a chance of a true passion for coffee coming to the fore, and genuine better quality offerings in the future.

Honda built a s#&t load of C90s & Civics before they built the NR750 or the NSX.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

To be fair to the forum, I think everybody is taking NewAge coffee in good faith.

If they weren't they would be wondering why he has a gmail account and considering whether he is trying to find out about sources of beans for some other reason.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Fine words MWJB but the fact remains, pre-ground coffee in high end packaging is not high quality. It is a polished turd. Will it sell? Maybe, if it has a credible USP (which so far is not apparent). Will it taste good. No. So this new concept is actually an old one. "It doesn't matter if it's a bad product. The customer will never know". Going back to Dragon's Den, I suspect they would pick up on that factor, as whilst the Dragons are themselves marketeers, they know a bad product when they see one and do not support such products. They would ask to taste it. The OP would brew it. They would wince. The OP would descend the stairs of shame, Fanta-style packaging between his legs.

Personally I think it's important to distinguish between high quality and low quality, to protect the customer. But good luck, OP... if you believe in your product then maybe you will recover your legal costs.


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

good point well made mwjb, making money is one thing, saying preground pre packaged is high quality is not, regardless of what the average passer by may say, I have seen people who think that their favourite instant is the best thing money can buy coffee wise. They're wrong, as is anyone who markets pre-ground pre-packed coffee as high end quality. It may be better than the average supermarket shelf mass produced pre-ground.

The point here is simple pre-ground coffee is not a high end product, nor will it ever be.

Ferrari only ever made good cars as far as I'm aware


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

There is definitely a market for pre-ground and nicely packaged coffee, whether it is something we wish to admit or not.

Although we have a common interest in coffee, we are still the minority when it comes to consumer behaviour.

I bet there is a forum on the internet debating our buying habits on an entirely different product and thinking how primitive we are.

To give an example, we receive a number of links from a shaving forum. They debate the merits of shaving kit including the types of metal used in the blade, water temperatures and other nuances most of us wouldn't even dream about. They most probably despair the Bic razors in the market or the self moisturising varieties.

If anyone is conducting market research on there they are likely to be met with the same feelings from their members.

We can all give our points of view without prejudging the ethics of a member. However, if someone is blatantly fishing and you can see through their cover then call their bluff. From past experience only an exceptionally small number of visitors to the site will try this tactic.


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## newagecoffee (Jun 1, 2012)

I appreciate all of your comments and am taking them on board. We are collating info from a number of sources at present so they go into the pool.

We have found a 3 sources, however whilst having been assured of price and quality are left a little concerned by the lack of environmental accreditation is is given. Do you feel that when buying coffee this is a major factor?

From what I have ascertained pre ground coffee is definitely unpopular on here! However for your average coffee drinker it is an easy option, and providing they believe it is high quality in sharp packaging the consumer is happy.

On another topic have any of you guys had experience with Jamaica Blue Mountain coffee? Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Once again I thank you all for your responses,

Matt

For more information contact me at [email protected]


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

Jamaican blue Mountain is over priced, and in mt opinion not very nice, also as the Japanese are crazy about the stuff they get the best 80% and the rest of the world get what's left, if you feel you need blue mountain as an option go with Kenyan.


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## Ben J (Jun 3, 2012)

geordie-barista said:


> Jamaican blue Mountain is over priced, and in mt opinion not very nice, also as the Japanese are crazy about the stuff they get the best 80% and the rest of the world get what's left, if you feel you need blue mountain as an option go with Kenyan.


Have to agree here. Having tried the "big 2" (this and Kona being the 2 most expensive coffees I can find on regular sale in the UK) neither really impressed me. Seems like you're paying for the name. As recommended I'd suggest a good Kenyan Peaberry as from my experience people seem to associate it with quality. As for traceability, I personally consider the information provided by the likes of Hasbean to be the gold standard. However, most customers don't really care, usually just asking if it's Fairtraide, if you're buying single origin coffee from a reputable source then it should be direct trade, which is considerably better.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

[quote name=newagecoffe

... and providing they believe it is high quality in sharp packaging the consumer is happy.

[/quote]

A somewhat contemptuous approach to customer service?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

newagecoffee said:


> providing they BELIEVE it is high quality in sharp packaging ...


Says it all.

There's another coffee I expect the OP will find out about soon... or some variation on that theme.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Perception is reality afterall


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

It all sounds like a bad episode of The Apprentice. Start with absolutely no knowledge of the product you intend selling, coupled with a arrogant attitude towards the consumer. On top of that, position your product at exactly the wrong end of the price spectrum from where it needs to be. Part of being a 'high end' customer is that you can see through marketing bullshit and evaluate the contents of the packaging in their own right. Remember, the only part of this product that ends up in the bin is the packaging.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

NewAgeCoffee, other than the aforementioned eye-catching visuals, what advantages will your packaging have with regards to retaining, or at least attempting to, freshness of the product? Given the multitude of ways that coffee is prepared in the home, will it be ground for a particular brewing method?

Expobarista, whilst I agree with your sentiment, I'm not aware that it is typical to price preground coffee any lower than wholebean?


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Have you ever seen 'high end' ground coffee? I'm not sure I have.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Most roasters offer the pre-ground option, which I guess contained a 'high end' quality product at point of grinding.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

We are talking about retail ground coffee though. I can't see it as a high end product no matter what bag it comes in. High end implies high priced.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Its going to have to be some damn fancy packaging to try and displace an already (I would suggest) saturated supermarket pre-ground coffee market. Essentially all the products are the same (stale and tasteless well before hitting the shop floor), yet some of these companies are well established with significant financial backing for packaging and marketing etc. Your product is no better so you are in a head to head battle with the big guys.

As coffee enthusiasts on this site we obviously know/care more than the average punter when it comes to coffee quality and taste. I would suggest most buying pre-ground will buy what is on offer or maybe opt for a fair trade alternative. Again not a winnable game with established high turnover existing products.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Garydyke1 wrote: "Most roasters offer the pre-ground option, which I guess contained a 'high end' quality product at point of grinding."

Exactly Gary, but if the "quality" of the product is compromised by pre grinding why do we not see that reflected in the pricing? One vendor is seen as an ignorant, profiteer with nothing but contempt for the buying public for selling preground at a similar pricing level to whole bean...whilst another is seen pillar of the coffee community.

I guess my question is really, what are the tangible "lines in the sand" regarding coffee quality divisions?

Given the same barista, I would certainly expect freshly roasted beans, ground on demand to produce a better result in the cup...but a trip down any high street in the country will show you that simply having whole beans, ground on demand, is far from a guarantee of a great cup of coffee...in my town a pod shot in the barbers is the best I have had (outside of home that is).

In terms of freshness & useful product life, how does a typical artesan/gourmet coffee, ground by the roaster, sent out in a regular bag with a degas valve compare to vacuum packed grinds, or those packaged in a "protective environment" from mass market suppliers?

How do I know that the high quality, direct relationship coffee, sourced by my preferred roaster is not also turning up in bags of supermarket coffee at a reduced price? Whilst I accept that the supermarket product may sit on the shelf beyond it's optimal life, but by the same token, your artisan roaster can only recommend an optimal useage period, they don't recall product after that period & I'm sure we have all been in the situation where we have over ordered & continued making coffee with beans we know are not delivering what they once were?

Yes, I might be stretching points for purposes of illustration & I accept that the whole notion of anything but freshly roasted wholebean coffee is outside most forum members' sphere of interest, but I come here primarily for the wealth of knowledge that is mostly, as far as I can tell, arrived at by empirical methods & backed up by sensory evaluation.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Forzajuve wrote: "I would suggest most buying pre-ground will buy what is on offer or maybe opt for a fair trade alternative."

The Fairtrade market only represents 5% of the UK coffee sales.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

MWJB said:


> The Fairtrade market only represents 5% of the UK coffee sales.


Interesting, is that of the pre-ground supermarket sales or coffee as a whole? In any case I was just suggesting those consumers will mainly buy from their supermarket whichever coffee is on offer, unless they feel strongly about fairtrade, rather than on the packaging or loyalty to a flavour or brand.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Forzajuve wrote: "Interesting, is that of the pre-ground supermarket sales or coffee as a whole? In any case I was just suggesting those consumers will mainly buy from their supermarket whichever coffee is on offer, unless they feel strongly about fairtrade, rather than on the packaging or loyalty to a flavour or brand."

That's of coffee sales as a whole (2010 figures).


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## newagecoffee (Jun 1, 2012)

Having listened to our feedback, we are reversing our plans to grind the coffee. Instead I am negotiating over acquiring Kenyan Peaberry coffee unground and roasted. We were thinking of retailing this at around £4 per 125g and £8 per 250g, please give me your thoughts on this pricing. We are also pushing ahead with the Jamaica Blue Mountain negotiations, sticking point is price as the samples were a bit of a let down given the price!


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

I can offer you a Jamaican Blue Mountain blend which is a lot cheaper than the single origin stuff but you would be hard pushed to tell the difference in taste!

Roasted and packed in case of 6 x 1kg bags: Jamaican Blue Mountain Blend £13/kilo = £78/case

There would be no carriage charge for orders over 15kg

Andy


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I think it is great that you are taking on board more information about the product you are planning to sell. Your product will be of a high quality if it is whole bean.

However, at the risk of sounding negative when I'm intending to be helpful, I do think you would be wise to learn more about your product, your customers and your competitors, conduct a SWOT analysis or a LoNGPEST, or do something rigorous that would help you position yourself and your marketing mix. I say this because I am fairly aware of the products, the suppliers, and the customer demographics out there, and the first question that comes to mind with your proposition is "where do you fit?" I think this is what others have said previously.

Product: OK, so your product may now be of a higher quality... but are you aware of the rate at which beans go stale? Roasted speciality grade coffee beans are typically used within a few weeks of roasting, after which they are no longer of a high quality (as is normal with fresh, agricultural products such as coffee). Are you aware of the various packaging techniques used to help prevent this... and their effectiveness? Nitrogen flushing etc. Is this technology that you would intend to invest in?

Customers: Are you clear about which band of customers are going to pay £8 for 250g whole beans that were roasted three weeks ago?...because I don't think anyone on here would buy them, so you're going to be aiming for the mass market rather than coffee lovers. £8 is a high price for the mass market, in my view, so what is it (other than quality) that is going to make customers come back for more? There would have to be something aspirational about your product... but you really don't seem to be able to put your finger on what that is going to be yet.

Competitors: So here's the thing. We can all buy a 250g bag of speciality grade roasted coffee, expertly roasted by hand by a roaster who has personally roasted the beans that were used by the current World Barista Champion. These are TRUE high quality beans of the highest order. They cost the princely sum of £4.50 (plus postage for most people). That's one of your competitors, and Quality is their competitve advantage. (Do you know which company that is? If you don't, that's a bit worrying.)

But that company isn't in supermarkets, so maybe your competitors are Taylors Of Harrogate. They have a range of beans rather than just one Kenyan. They have high volumes, which keeps their costs and hence their prices low. That's probably their competitive advantage.

What is your competitive advantage?

I'm not criticising you, btw. I'm just highlighting questions that you need to have very clear answers to if you are going to succeed, because at the moment it seems a bit like you're rushing into this without doing your research.

Jamaica Blue Mountain: The brand has become diluted and its sources controvertial, which is possibly why the samples you got were not very good. Originally only the coffee from Wallenford Estate could be classed as JBM, but that is no longer the case and I believe that now other farms on the mountain are able to class their coffees as JBM, despite being of a lower standard. If it is the real thing then apparently it will indeed be very good. But then you also have to brew it correctly to obtain that perfection. Are you brewing it using conventional coffee brewing wisdom?

And another thing is that JBM is not the same as JBM blend.


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

MikeHag said:


> Jamaica Blue Mountain: The brand has become diluted and its sources controvertial, which is possibly why the samples you got were not very good. Originally only the coffee from Wallenford Estate could be classed as JBM, but that is no longer the case and I believe that now other farms on the mountain are able to class their coffees as JBM, despite being of a lower standard. If it is the real thing then apparently it will indeed be very good. But then you also have to brew it correctly to obtain that perfection. Are you brewing it using conventional coffee brewing wisdom?
> 
> And another thing is that JBM is not the same as JBM blend.


I can get Wallenford Estate but it is VERY expensive around £70 a kilo to my customers (and I make very little on that!) - I know JBM is not the same as JBM blend, but the blend I was offering is extremely close tastewise and costs a fraction of the single origin. Both single origin and blends would be freshly roasted and sent out within a couple of days.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I can't see what the added value is on this product, much as Mike says. Why should people pay an extra £3 for your 'Kenyan Peaberry', which lacks any kind of information about estate origin, because that is yet another thing that you are unaware of. How can you possibly compete with the buying power of big purveyors if you want to take the retail route. People aren't stupid (well...) they won't pay a premium unless the product is superior, and the packaging and logo are not the product.

Coffee is booming, but the days of making a killing were ten years ago when wholesale prices were low. I doubt there is any space left in the industry for the ill-informed or the disinterested. Educate yourself quickly before you spend any more of your, or anybody else's money.


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## newagecoffee (Jun 1, 2012)

coffeebean said:


> I can offer you a Jamaican Blue Mountain blend which is a lot cheaper than the single origin stuff but you would be hard pushed to tell the difference in taste!
> 
> Roasted and packed in case of 6 x 1kg bags: Jamaican Blue Mountain Blend £13/kilo = £78/case
> 
> ...


Drop me an email at [email protected]


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