# Apia 1 gr Nuova Simonelli trips the electicity



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Hello All,

After two weeks of vacation I came back home, switched my Apia 1 gr and once it started the automatic boiler refill I heard the motor starts and the next second the electricity was off. I repeated the exercise with the same success. I remembered a potential fault that might be linked with seized rotary pump that can make the system trips the electricity. Today I opened the machine, tried the recommended approach with a screwdriver to move the motor's shaft (which turned without much hassle) and then tried switching it again. This time, it tripped again but I did not hear the motor even attempting to start. I took out the rotary pump (Fluid-o-tech) and descaled it with 5% citric acid solution. Without the rotary pump connected another trial of switching it on was disaster. The lights come up but the second it tries to fill it up (get to the motor) there seems to be a shortcut, which I struggle to figure out where it originates from. Can the motor be gone by now?

I am not an electrician but have some basic idea how things work. I really hope someone might advise me for the potential tripping cause.

Thank you very much in advance!

Cheers,

John


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Disconnect the heating elements and then see what happens.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Disconnect the heating elements and then see what happens.


 Hi Dave,

Thank you so much!

I did as advised and the machine started smoothly. The motor is still alive and I am going to attach the rotary pump after the descaling with citric acid.

Before I saw your post I had measured the heating element and the resistance was 30 Ohms that was roughly what I expected.

Does the observation mean that I have to buy a new heating element?

Cheers,

John


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I would think so yes......the worst thing that can happen is you have a spare. I have spare elements for my Duetto, the big advantage to me was it ensures once paid for the existing Duetto elements will never fail...it's called sods law


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Hi Dave

I am currently looking for the same element. It is 1800W 160 mm in length and the latter is the hurdle. The only one I found is in the USA for $106 plus postage.

I will bite the bullet as the boiler length is 175 mm and all of the rest on offer in Europe are 180 mm long, with "stock unavailable" message next to it..

Is it possible for the thermostat on the boiler to be a culprit too? I measured it and it has zero resistance at room temperature. I wonder whether this should be the shortcut I encounter as the heating element looks healthy resistance wise. I am going to remove the heating element and properly investigate.

I very much appreciate your help!

Cheers,

John


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## kozesluk (Apr 28, 2019)

your heating element is most likely short to the ground, therefore unsafe to be used, although you might be able to measure reasonable resistance between its poles.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Thank you for chipping in!

I did check the ground and the poles of the heating element still in the machine and it was infinite resistance. I was hoping (still I am) that the thermostat would be the culprit as I can source it easily in the UK. The machine is 10 year old and sourcing the element turned out to be a difficult task.

Cheers,

John


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

With the element out, examine it carefully for any bumps , blisters or tiny cracks. Also test with meter between each terminal and the element itself.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

More updates.

I have checked the element numerous times. I have reset the thermostat (although it iwa not clear whether it clicked or not upon pushing it). Tried the machine without the thermostat being on.

It worked. The next step was to check with the thermostat on. It worked again. Not RCD tripping this time.

Put the machine back, connected the mains. Switched it on.

The pump started filling the boiler up ............................but it "forgot" to stop. I had to stop it manually from the switch.

Now I have got the level probe taken out and upon checking its tip it looks black and quite rough unlike the rest of its shiny body. Currently in hot citric acid before I put it back and check it again.

Do you think it was the probe from the start? It seems this way given that the element is back and no visible issues so far.

Cheers,

John


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

El carajillo said:


> With the element out, examine it carefully for any bumps , blisters or tiny cracks. Also test with meter between each terminal and the element itself.


 It seems we have been writing at the same time  , please see my last post. I have written the element off (for the time being) as the culprit.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

John Yossarian said:


> Hi Dave
> I am currently looking for the same element. It is 1800W 160 mm in length and the latter is the hurdle. The only one I found is in the USA for $106 plus postage.
> I will bite the bullet as the boiler length is 175 mm and all of the rest on offer in Europe are 180 mm long, with "stock unavailable" message next to it..
> Is it possible for the thermostat on the boiler to be a culprit too? I measured it and it has zero resistance at room temperature. I wonder whether this should be the shortcut I encounter as the heating element looks healthy resistance wise. I am going to remove the heating element and properly investigate.
> ...


The thermostat is just a switch. It should have zero resistance until it gets up to temperature &opens to turn the element off.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

ashcroc said:


> John Yossarian said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Dave
> ...


 Thanks Ashcroc! It seemed not to be the issue in the end.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Latest update:

With the autofill probe cleaned, I plugged it back and after switching the machine on it tripped the RCD again. Unplugged the autofill probe and the machine kept filling the boiler (in the absence of feedback).

I cannot figure out how the autofill probe trips the system but it seems I might need a new one.

The issue is that it is one of the bend ones at right angle and the ones I have seen are long straight rods.

Any suggestion will be highly appreciated.

Cheers,

John


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Thermostat = limit stat?, or thermostat? what exactly are you talking about. Photos and little overlaid arrows help, lots of free software for doing that. What does being on and not being on mean, what on earth are you referring to? Limit stats can arc to their mountings when they fail, but can be easily bypassed.

Autofill probe can't trip the RCD, it's designed to be grounded/not grounded as part of the way it works.

Tech Ed: Usually on well designed machines, the heating elements will be switched off once the probe tip is out of water or open circuit. Once you connect up the probe again, if the tip is under water the "brain box" detects that and switches on the heating elements, making it seem as if connecting up the probe trips the machine.

It's all getting a bit complex made more so by the lack of basic information/understanding. The electricity was off...then you reveal in a later post there is an RCD. So it's not tripping a breaker, but an RCD (is that correct) because there is a big difference. If it's just a straight breaker then that can trip due to arcing, not necessarily electricity going to ground.

*Run the machine with the heating element disconnected, if it fills and pumps and does everything normally, then it's probably the element. Just because your multimeter meter shows Zero Ohms between it and ground means nothing...even a megger might not show it up when cold, but you could get one from ebay and try it. Be sure not megger it with the element in the machine if you don't know what your doing!!!!*

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Megger-BM100-2-Tester/323869732494?hash=item4b6823ee8e:g:nD8AAOSwl5FdMxH8

@El carajillo *asked you if you had removed the element and visually inspected it.....have you?*

If you keep playing about with other stuff, especially if you don't really know what you are doing you will find faults that don't exist and probably introduce faults you never had before. Also just stop with all the stuff about the probe!!

P.S If the element fitting is a standard size, you may well be able to put an alternative element in of similar wattage....that could be sourced cheaply from the UK.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Thermostat = limit stat?, or thermostat? what exactly are you talking about. Photos and little overlaid arrows help, lots of free software for doing that. What does being on and not being on mean, what on earth are you referring to? Limit stats can arc to their mountings when they fail, but can be easily bypassed.
> 
> Autofill probe can't trip the RCD, it's designed to be grounded/not grounded as part of the way it works.
> 
> ...


 Hi Dave

I owe you an apology for the confusing posts so far.

I will try to summarise it:

The machine starts up, doesn't trip the RCD (it turned out my house has got one) and fills the boiler up. This made me think that the element should be OK.

As the boiler at the moment is heavily overfilled (this happened when I tried the machine with the autofill probe off) I suspect that the probe being deep in the water somehow trips the RCD. This reminded me of one of my previous machines, Bezzera Z35e. I fully refurbished it but it was doing the same thing, upon switching on once the el contactor was to switch the element on the machine would stop. I tried many things and the only one that worked in the end was to drain the boiler below the autofill probe level and only then it was fine.

I am going to repeat this again and see what happens.

Cheers,

John


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## kozesluk (Apr 28, 2019)

level probe can't trip RCD. it's capacitive sensing, no current.

1) unplug boiler fill solenoid so your boiler stops overfilling, clean the level probe (mechanically, forget the acid and make sure there is no residual moisture on the insulation teflon sleeve or anywhere else) and connect it

2) disconnect heating element, both contacts

3) turn machine on, it shouldn't try to fill. if it just tries to fill for few seconds - okay, happens, no drama. it should work normally (ie dispense water from grouphead and try to fill boiler if you remove the wire from level probe - there is no significant voltage so it is safe to touch)

4) reconnect the heating element. if it now doesn't work, your element needs replacement.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Thank you all for your advice!

I have come to the conclusion (based on your elaborated discussion) that a new element (as initially suggested by Dave) should be on its way. Given that it is not very standard it might take me some time to find it but I will do my best.

I was misled (and hopeful) by the fact that when the machine was starting it was filling the boiler but as it has been pointed out this must have been the case due to the fact that the order of triggering the element kept it late in time.

Tomorrow I will remove the element and will investigate it but I no longer have hope that it is intact.

Thank you again!

Once I get a new one, I will update the status of this unfortunate occurrence.

Cheers,

John


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Not sure on that M/ch but the nut is usually 1 1/2" AF. If it has a teflon seal and given its age you may well find the element is corroded in.

DO NOT rely on the pipe work and brackets to hold the boiler as you try to unscrew the element or you will disturb/ break joints or damage the boiler.

Either hold the boiler with a large strap wrench (close to end with element) NOT in the middle.

OR Take the boiler out and go to a garage and ask if they will remove it with an air gun.

Make sure you keep the seal centred when re-assembling.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

El carajillo said:


> Not sure on that M/ch but the nut is usually 1 1/2" AF. If it has a teflon seal and given its age you may well find the element is corroded in.
> 
> DO NOT rely on the pipe work and brackets to hold the boiler as you try to unscrew the element or you will disturb/ break joints or damage the boiler.
> 
> ...


 Hi El Carajillo,

Today I have manged to remove the element from the boiler. It seems as a bit of corrosion near the base has started eating up the metal alloy resulting in the shortcut when in water.

I have taken a few pictures, which I will try to upload. No bumps or uneven parts apart from this suspicious rusty spot.

I have contacted someone (I do not know whether I am allowed to mention spare parts online shops here) who is going to order it for me from Italy, the one they have in the shop is longer by 2 cm.


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## kozesluk (Apr 28, 2019)

classic.

oh, and order a new gasket as well, in case no one said that before.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Glad it was not the screw in type :classic_biggrin:


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

kozesluk said:


> classic.
> 
> oh, and order a new gasket as well, in case no one said that before.


 This is what I have asked for. The guy mentioned a week and I keep my fingers crossed.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

El carajillo said:


> Glad it was not the screw in type :classic_biggrin:


 It was very easy to unscrew it once I emptied by means of a large syringe and some tubing.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

John Yossarian said:


> Hi El Carajillo,
> Today I have manged to remove the element from the boiler. It seems as a bit of corrosion near the base has started eating up the metal alloy resulting in the shortcut when in water.
> I have taken a few pictures, which I will try to upload. No bumps or uneven parts apart from this suspicious rusty spot.
> I have contacted someone (I do not know whether I am allowed to mention spare parts online shops here) who is going to order it for me from Italy, the one they have in the shop is longer by 2 cm.
> ...


That'll do it. When I repaired washing machines, I'd walk into the customers property with an element under my arm no matter what the reported problem was.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Dear All,

Today I have re-assembled the machine back after a couple of difficult (no espresso at home) weeks. A friend sent me the part from Italy, it seems it is not available in the UK (although Will from Espresso Solutions was ready to order it for me from there).

I am to pull the first shot and my wife is also asking for her dopio (she felt the drought too).

I used the occasion to descale the boiler and irrespective of the fact that the water is very mild I have recently calculated that simply because of the gradual concentration increase in time it is inevitable.

Anyway, I wanted to say a Big Thank You to all of you who advised me in the process.

Have a good weekend!

Cheers,

John


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