# Italian style espresso beans



## Caffeinated_fiend (Apr 15, 2020)

With my so far limited experience making espresso for use in Long blacks or Americanos I have tried a couple of coffees. Raves fudge blend and a couple of decafs and none have been great as Americano. The closest I've come to something more like I am used to is Lavazza Oro, this tastes more like what I get when out and even though I know it's not fresh coffee it is the taste I prefer.

Anyone have any recommendations, something like Raves Italian blend maybe?

One question I have is that when I am out and order a large Americano, it still has the strength in volume. What I am noticing is that if I want a stronger style Americano or long black at home I am making it in about 150ml or so of water, my normal double pull in 300ml drinks tastes too watered down.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Ive noticed this,

All the specialist coffees and blends dont taste like the coffee im used to,

And the levazza super crema i got in ground form for my first machine still has the flavour i prefer.

Alot of the ones im buying have fruit undertones that bring acidity to the drink

Im crap at espresso, and most stuff i make in shot for is sour ish 🤦🏻‍♀️


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Cuprajake said:


> Ive noticed this,
> 
> All the specialist coffees and blends dont taste like the coffee im used to,
> 
> ...


Try some of the stuff from Rave like Italian Job or Chatswood. Also try coffee compass, they seem to roast to a darker side of life.

Saying that, if Lavazza is your thing.... why not use that?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Caffeinated_fiend (Apr 15, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Try some of the stuff from Rave like Italian Job or Chatswood. Also try coffee compass, they seem to roast to a darker side of life.
> 
> Saying that, if Lavazza is your thing.... why not use that?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Thanks for the reply, I have got some Lavazza but I would like to try some Lavazza like coffee that is fresh roasted.

If I am going for strength am I better pulling 1:2 shots rather than the old standard 60ml/1oz shot?

thanks for the suggestions


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> If I am going for strength am I better pulling 1:2 shots rather than the old standard 60ml/1oz shot?


 Depends on your equipment. Measuring output in g is better. Well actually not true. If you are going for strength and you don't care if you under or over extract then aim for whatever ratio (strength) you want.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> Thanks for the reply, I have got some Lavazza but I would like to try some Lavazza like coffee that is fresh roasted.
> 
> If I am going for strength am I better pulling 1:2 shots rather than the old standard 60ml/1oz shot?
> 
> thanks for the suggestions


 You said at the start of the thread that your espresso is going into Americano/long blacks. In this case, you have no need to brew coffee very strong/short ratio, because you are diluting it later.

If you boil some of the same water you use in the machine, in a kettle & add it to your shot, it won't taste significantly different to pulling a longer shot.

I drink Lavazza & Illy a fair bit, I seem to remember Lavazza Oro being a little fruity, the regular espresso beans in the black bag taste more like buttered toast to me. If you under-extract these & Illy, they still go acidic. Both brands are preserved in the packaging, fine on opening, but use them quickly after opening.

Anyway, my point is, if your final drink is 150g, you may be shooting yourself in the foot trying to extract the coffee with a very small amount of water, as this will err towards under-extraction more easily. I would keep pulling longer shots until you lose any unwanted sourness, grinding coarser if the shots start taking unusually long time (over 40s).

150g total beverage sounds a little weak for a single shot, as does a double in 300g. If you start with an 18g double dose, your coffee is weaker than typical filter coffee.


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## Caffeinated_fiend (Apr 15, 2020)

MWJB said:


> You said at the start of the thread that your espresso is going into Americano/long blacks. In this case, you have no need to brew coffee very strong/short ratio, because you are diluting it later.
> 
> If you boil some of the same water you use in the machine, in a kettle & add it to your shot, it won't taste significantly different to pulling a longer shot.
> 
> ...


 Thank you for the information, I'm not sure what I should be aiming for with a double shot final drink grams wise. Is it most likely that the drinks I have been having in cafes and the like Americano wise, have more than two shots in order to not taste watery? I want to say most Americanos are around the 500ml mark that you get out, well regular ones.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> Thank you for the information, I'm not sure what I should be aiming for with a double shot final drink grams wise. Is it most likely that the drinks I have been having in cafes and the like Americano wise, have more than two shots in order to not taste watery? I want to say most Americanos are around the 500ml mark that you get out, well regular ones.


 Brew as you are, just let each consecutive shot run 5g heavier & top up an 18g shot to say 230-250g? Note the weight of the espresso shot when you like the taste best & use that.

Or maybe start at 18g:90g out to start with & add 140g water? Adjust grind finer to lose sourness, coarser to lose bitterness/powdery mouthfeel.

18g into 500ml would be half the strength of a typical cup of coffee...without knowing more about where you are getting these it's hard to say, but I'd suspect most places would use a quadruple shot (2x double shots) for that.


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## Caffeinated_fiend (Apr 15, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Brew as you are, just let each consecutive shot run 5g heavier & top up an 18g shot to say 230-250g? Note the weight of the espresso shot when you like the taste best & use that.
> 
> Or maybe start at 18g:90g out to start with & add 140g water? Adjust grind finer to lose sourness, coarser to lose bitterness/powdery mouthfeel.
> 
> 18g into 500ml would be half the strength of a typical cup of coffee...without knowing more about where you are getting these it's hard to say, but I'd suspect most places would use a quadruple shot (2x double shots) for that.


 Thank you, I will give that a try and hopefully get to where I want to be, strength wise.

The first beans I bought were the Fudge blend from Rave as I wanted to get to grips with the milk frothier, I don't normally drink milky drinks but I thought a flats white sounded like it might be good. However when I made the drink with say 120ml of milk and added the double shot I wasn't really getting any fudge taste, I found it hard for the coffee taste to punch through the milk.

I also tried the fudge as a Americano but probably need to try again with a lower water dose.


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## Caffeinated_fiend (Apr 15, 2020)

@MWJB Do you have any tips for decaf?

Having the hardest time with it, I have some signature espresso from Decadent Decaf but I haven't had anything good from it yet, I tried a higher extraction time but pressed the double shot button instead of doing a manual double shot so I got 53.5g in maybe 23 seconds so I will tighten it up a bit but just wondered If I needed to up the temperature or lower it maybe, I haven't changed it yet the machine is just on the middle setting.

It tasted fruity, not sour really but the tasting notes say soft cocoa which wasn't what I got, I put the double shot into 190g of water to create a 243g drink.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> @MWJB Do you have any tips for decaf?
> 
> Having the hardest time with it, I have some signature espresso from Decadent Decaf but I haven't had anything good from it yet, I tried a higher extraction time but pressed the double shot button instead of doing a manual double shot so I got 53.5g in maybe 23 seconds so I will tighten it up a bit but just wondered If I needed to up the temperature or lower it maybe, I haven't changed it yet the machine is just on the middle setting.
> 
> It tasted fruity, not sour really but the tasting notes say soft cocoa which wasn't what I got, I put the double shot into 190g of water to create a 243g drink.


 Don't brew by time. Brew by grind setting at your ratio.

Try a Colombian sugar cane decaf, maybe Hasbean, see what they have (I tend to drink lighter roasts).

Don't worry about temp, unless you have exhausted all other avenues. For now, make sure you hit your target weight, don't adjust anything else until you have evaluated a couple of shots at this weight.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

MWJB said:


> Don't brew by time. Brew by grind setting at your ratio.
> 
> Try a Colombian sugar cane decaf, maybe Hasbean, see what they have (I tend to drink lighter roasts).
> 
> Don't worry about temp, unless you have exhausted all other avenues. For now, make sure you hit your target weight, don't adjust anything else until you have evaluated a couple of shots at this weight.


 The Columbian decaf when roasted light to medium is nuts and caramel, yum! Nice as a long black but in milk it's divine!


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## Caffeinated_fiend (Apr 15, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> The Columbian decaf when roasted light to medium is nuts and caramel, yum! Nice as a long black but in milk it's divine!


 Sounds good, I have been trying the rave fudge blend to make Some flat whites, I don't normally have milk based drinks but I wanted to have a bash at some latte art. Even with pre warmed cups and the rest of it though, they don't hold their heat very long, I'm frothing the milk until it becomes too hot to hold the jug but it's soon losing its temp.

Im not helping myself really at the moment switching between beans so much, but I am making notes on each for dose, time, taste, grind setting etc so shouldn't be wasting loads of beans getting something half decent. I wanted the fudge blend to cut through the milk but so far it hasn't.

I need to slow my roll a little, I ended up watching about 10 different videos on the Mignon Silenzio last night On YouTube thinking I would just grab this instead of using the built in grinder on the Barista Pro but that grind dial looks like a bit of a nightmare when it comes to repeating grind sizes, think I will save up for the Niche. Plus I know that the grinder in the Pro isn't amazing but I have been able to make 2-3 second adjustment to my extraction times with it so the 30 seconds plus hopper adjustments do seem much better than what it was on the express.


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## Caffeinated_fiend (Apr 15, 2020)

I now have some Rave Italian Blend, I tried a longer pull and on the first try I got 60g out in 30 seconds, it looked like a pint of Guinness with the crema. Total drink size was around 200g, I found it somewhat bitter, is that to be expected due to the robusta? Didn't know whether to put it into more water to further dilute it. Should I try a shorter pull or is it going to be bitter either way?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Yeah little shorter


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> I now have some Rave Italian Blend, I tried a longer pull and on the first try I got 60g out in 30 seconds, it looked like a pint of Guinness with the crema. Total drink size was around 200g, I found it somewhat bitter, is that to be expected due to the robusta? Didn't know whether to put it into more water to further dilute it. Should I try a shorter pull or is it going to be bitter either way?


 Depends how good your prep is. You could try 50g but you can get bitterness because of channelling so it's not necessarily something you've got wrong with the grind setting-ratio.


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## Caffeinated_fiend (Apr 15, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> Depends how good your prep is. You could try 50g but you can get bitterness because of channelling so it's not necessarily something you've got wrong with the grind setting-ratio.


 I ran a few more shots and to get rid of the bitterness I had to go closer to a 1:2 ratio, however I'm not a massive fan of how it tastes as a long black.

It's been frustrating so far as none of the fresh beans I have tried have been to my taste. I went back to some Lavazza Oro beans and I much prefer the taste of those as a long black. Nice taste and smooth finish with no bitterness.

Maybe my taste buds are just easily pleased, I think as someone who doesn't drink straight espressos it's been hard to find a bean I like so far.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I agree.

Alot i tried were acidic

I now have the rave fudge and rave espresso blends. These are more to my liking.

More like the levazza


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

It has been my experience that a lot of peoples palates change as they continue their coffee journey.

I do still enjoy a traditional Italian style darker roast that is oodles of chocolate and richness occasionally. But my day-to-day coffee is a lot more lively and bright in style. I often feel a little disappointed if I have a coffee out and about that doesn't have a nice acidity and fruity note to it. I understand that is not to everyone taste though.

Perhaps as you continue your tastes will change too. But if not that is fine also.

The best coffee is the coffee you like the best.


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

If you think you like a darker roast profile check out Coffee Compass.

There Malabar Hit or Hill & Valley may suit you. While you are there grab a bag of the Mystery bean just incase you decide to try something else they offer. At £14 a kilo it's a good buy

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk


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## Caffeinated_fiend (Apr 15, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> It has been my experience that a lot of peoples palates change as they continue their coffee journey.
> 
> I do still enjoy a traditional Italian style darker roast that is oodles of chocolate and richness occasionally. But my day-to-day coffee is a lot more lively and bright in style. I often feel a little disappointed if I have a coffee out and about that doesn't have a nice acidity and fruity note to it. I understand that is not to everyone taste though.
> 
> ...


 I have had a few more fruity coffees in an Aeropress or Kalita Wave but so far not with espresso as I'd find it harder to tell the fruit acidity from potential sourness. I was looking at the Black Cat site and noticed the half caff. Might grab some for the later afternoon drinks.



HowardSmith said:


> If you think you like a darker roast profile check out Coffee Compass.
> 
> There Malabar Hit or Hill & Valley may suit you. While you are there grab a bag of the Mystery bean just incase you decide to try something else they offer. At £14 a mile it's a good buy
> 
> Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk


 Thank you I will take a look, I'm enjoying the Lavazza Oro in a 200ml drink but I would like to find something that translates into a bigger drink but retains the strength.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Yeah pour overs nice, espresso not so, unless in milk


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## Tonino (Mar 26, 2018)

Cuprajake said:


> I agree.
> 
> Alot i tried were acidic
> 
> ...


 Hi,

you can try costa beans if you like lavazza these may be to your taste, I do enjoy them a lot, also Slumber jack Italian espresso or full swing are good beans if you can source them from somewhere. 👍☕


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Must admit im liking the rave fudge and espresso blend too


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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

A couple I use for long Americanos that work well:

Rave's Italian Job;

Rave's Colombian Suarez Project Single Origin;

Compass Coffee Mahongany Roast Malabar Hit

Compass Coffee Espresso Blend Gusto Gold

I dose at 15 to 18gr depending on the roast and extract probably double or more out, usually between a double Ristretto and a double Espresso measure before diluting with 180-200gr boiled water. The time depends on which of those I am using but extraction is usually between 25 and 32 seconds. It doesn't seem to matter much of you go over some as you're diluting it anyway.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Good advice


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## fenwick458 (May 9, 2020)

best one i've found for americano is Lavazza cafe espresso


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## Tonino (Mar 26, 2018)

Last purchase from Tesco of costa beans were horrible old and stale, I had to return them. Then went to m&S and bought from their own beans, Colombian arabica and Italian espresso both fresh and tasty, good price too. 👍


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## tommyp215 (Apr 2, 2016)

Loving a kg of Italian job from rave at the moment dark but not bitter. Tempting me to the dark side.


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## Caffeinated_fiend (Apr 15, 2020)

I've been drinking the sucker punch decaf from Coffee Compass at the minute, it's my second bag and I've been loving it. Being as though it's decaf it doesn't stay around very long as I smash through it real quick. Would recommend to anyone who likes a darker roast and decaf. Has a strong taste and rich mouth feel and not bitter. I usually do 19 in 38 out in around 31 seconds.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Are they harder to dial in though


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## Caffeinated_fiend (Apr 15, 2020)

Cuprajake said:


> Are they harder to dial in though


 They certainly a different beast from my experience so far, you have to go finer on the grind with a decaf, it's certainly not hard to find a bad decaf. I also like the Lavazza dek decaf, as that is an Italian type roast, I tend to freeze those into weekly doses however as they drop off pretty quick compared to fresh beans.

I think if you were to go lighter roast and decaf, it may be the impossible dream for a while at least. It's harder to try new decafs as well as you can't really go for a 250g bag as it might take 3-4 shots to get dialled in, like any coffee really but the pain comes with the expense, especially when it's a bad one and decaf just seems more finicky in general. Once dialled in though you can go ham so there is an upside.


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