# Too much crema?



## Robbo (Feb 17, 2016)

Hi, I am using Mignon grinder and gaggia classic. My espressos have been slowly improving as i get more experienced but I have noticed the last couple of days I'm getting a lot more crema than I was before.

The shots used to look fairly black up until the last 10 seconds and ended up with about 2mm crema but now its coming out foamy blonde after just a few seconds and ending up with 1/3 crema in the shot glass when it settles and a slightly more bitter taste. Any ideas how to improve this? Timings etc are 16g in 36g out in 25 secs. With Hill & valley beans. cheers, Robbo.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hill and Valley are a fairly dark roast no ? When was it roasted ? Crema is bitter ......


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## Robbo (Feb 17, 2016)

Roasted on 11/3/16. I have seen it before when using 3 day old beans but i don't think its that this time. Could it be my tamping as I'm still using the plastic tamper? (Waiting for a decent one to be delivered next week hopefully)


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Whilst this may not answer your question, it might offer a better understanding about crema.

For most coffee drinkers, one of the key features of espresso is not the strength of the cup but also the layer of dense foam that tops the drink. Crema is simply Italian for cream and it is the natural head of foam that forms on top of the coffee, much like a head appears on a pint of beer.

The reason this happens is that when water is under very high pressure it is able to dissolve more carbon dioxide, the gas present in coffee that was produced during the roasting process. When the brewed liquid gets back to normal atmospheric pressure on its way to the cup, the liquid can no longer hold on to all of the gas so it comes out of solution as innumerable tiny bubbles. These bubbles become trapped in the coffee liquid and appear as a stable foam.

For a long time crema was considered important, but in fact it can only tell you two things. Firstly, whether the coffee is relatively fresh - the longer ago it was roasted, the less carbon dioxide it will contain so the less foam it will produce. And secondly, whether the cup of espresso is strong or weak. The darker in colour the foam, the stronger the liquid will be. This is because crema is just a foam of the liquid, lighter in colour because of the way the bubbles refract light, so the colour of the coffee determines the colour of the crema. For this reason, coffee that has been roasted darker will also produce a darker crema. The crema cannot tell you if the raw coffee is good, or had been well roasted, or if the equipment used to make the espresso is clean - all key factors in a delicious cup of coffee.

Above information provided by James Hoffman in his book, The World Atlas of Coffee.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Robbo said:


> Roasted on 11/3/16. I have seen it before when using 3 day old beans but i don't think its that this time. Could it be my tamping as I'm still using the plastic tamper? (Waiting for a decent one to be delivered next week hopefully)


could have robusta in it .......


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## Robbo (Feb 17, 2016)

DoubleShot said:


> Whilst this may not answer your question, it might offer a better understanding about crema.
> 
> For most coffee drinkers, one of the key features of espresso is not the strength of the cup but also the layer of dense foam that tops the drink. Crema is simply Italian for cream and it is the natural head of foam that forms on top of the coffee, much like a head appears on a pint of beer.
> 
> ...


That's interesting stuff, I will check out that book! I suppose Its the slightly bitter taste that's the issue and the extra crema is just circumstantial.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Robbo said:


> That's interesting stuff, I will check out that book! I suppose Its the slightly bitter taste that's the issue and the extra crema is just circumstantial.


Or it a really dark roasted coffee and your over extracting it ...


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## Robbo (Feb 17, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> could have robusta in it .......


Maybe, not sure. I know the first cup I pulled was really good but the rest have been slightly bitter in comparison. Now half way through the 500g bag.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

I must say after finishing Avenue Skyscraper last week and starting on some Coffee Compass Sumatra Jagong Village, one of the first things I noticed was...WOW! Look at that great looking crema. Made me wonder what magic tricks Richard does when roasting his beans as I always seem to get incredible crema from pretty much all beans from him.


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## Robbo (Feb 17, 2016)

How could I prevent over extraction? I tried slightly courser grind and it shot through in 12 seconds. Timings seem right where they are now.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Just to balance things up, Scott Rao's definition of crema.

Crema is composed primarily of CO2 and water vapor bubbles wrapped in liquid films made up of an aqueous solution of surfactants. Crema also contains suspended coffee bean cell wall fragments, or fines (responsible for "tiger striping," or mottling), and emulsified oils containing aromatics.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

DoubleShot said:


> I must say after finishing Avenue Skyscraper last week and starting on some Coffee Compass Sumatra Jagong Village, one of the first things I noticed was...WOW! Look at that great looking crema. Made me wonder what magic tricks Richard does when roasting his beans as I always seem to get incredible crema from pretty much all beans from him.


roasts em darker?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Robbo said:


> How could I prevent over extraction? I tried slightly courser grind and it shot through in 12 seconds. Timings seem right where they are now.


Change the brew ratio , its a dark roasted coffee , it may be that to some palates it tastes bitter , to others not

Timings count for nothing if the taste isnt balanced


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Some coffee and processes may produce more crema than others

In the end , as always , crema tastes like bottom


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

I may try doing a taste test, first removing crema off the top of an espresso and secondly stirring it in. James Hoffman describes the difference in flavour as dramatic.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

DoubleShot said:


> I may try doing a taste test, first removing crema off the top of an espresso and secondly stirring it in. James Hoffman describes the difference in flavour as dramatic.


Quick stir would be fine


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## Robbo (Feb 17, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Some coffee and processes may produce more crema than others
> 
> In the end , as always , crema tastes like bottom


So it seems... Tomorrow I will try scooping the crema off and see how that changes things


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## Robbo (Feb 17, 2016)

I should add the way I drink it is with equal amount of espresso/hot water/steamed milk. So i guess stirring shouldn't make a difference.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

If making milk based espresso drinks, I'd leave the crema in. I was talking about when drinking neat espresso.

Up until now, I've always stirred the crema in but have yet to taste a sweet tasting espresso that I've made at home. Hence why I considered doing a taste test removing the crema.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

When you say "slightly courser" how much did you turn the dial? Mignon's are sensitive little things and only need a little nudge.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> In the end , as always , crema tastes like bottom





DoubleShot said:


> I may try doing a taste test, first removing crema off the top of an espresso and secondly stirring it in.


I have to say those two in order made me wonder what kind of taste test it was going to be. I'm glad you clarified it quickly


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Robbo said:


> Hi, I am using Mignon grinder and gaggia classic. My espressos have been slowly improving as i get more experienced but I have noticed the last couple of days I'm getting a lot more crema than I was before.
> 
> The shots used to look fairly black up until the last 10 seconds and ended up with about 2mm crema but now its coming out foamy blonde after just a few seconds and ending up with 1/3 crema in the shot glass when it settles and a slightly more bitter taste. Any ideas how to improve this? Timings etc are 16g in 36g out in 25 secs. With Hill & valley beans. cheers, Robbo.


If the beans were not correctly rested, and darker beans often take a lot longer, then it may just be you opened the bag a day or two early. Your shots after a couple of extra days rest are more akin to what they ought to be


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Quick experiment on the taste note. Dial in to a recipe you're familiar with. Pull five shots:

Shot one, catch the first 10g

Shot two, catch the second 10g

Shot three, the third 10g

Shot four, catch the full shot and skim and retain only the crema.

Taste each of these separately. Note specific flavours and tastes.

Pull the final shot fully and see if you can pinpoint each of the previous tastes compared to this one.

Good palette trainer.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Scotford said:


> Quick experiment on the taste note. Dial in to a recipe you're familiar with. Pull five shots:
> 
> Shot one, catch the first 10g
> 
> ...


I may be being dim, this sounds like a great idea, but i can't for the life of me figure out how to catch the 2nd/3rd 10g and still be weighing it!


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Missy said:


> I may be being dim, this sounds like a great idea, but i can't for the life of me figure out how to catch the 2nd/3rd 10g and still be weighing it!


3 little cups on you scales? Slide them over one you hit 10g.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Missy said:


> I may be being dim, this sounds like a great idea, but i can't for the life of me figure out how to catch the 2nd/3rd 10g and still be weighing it!


Break it down into 3 x 10 seconds. it is just to demonstrate that a shot is built up, like a picture, into fore, middle and back ground.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Thanks. For me I reckon DFK41's suggestion is most feasible. My scales are tiny! Seems a great way as a beginner to explore flavour development and hopefully improve my technique as a result!


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Ziplock bag and scales unless you've Lunars


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> Break it down into 3 x 10 seconds. it is just to demonstrate that a shot is built up, like a picture, into fore, middle and back ground.


Or this...


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Scotford said:


> Ziplock bag and scales unless you've Lunars


Ziplock bag?!?


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Missy said:


> Ziplock bag?!?


Put your scales in one to prevent damage


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Scotford said:


> Put your scales in one to prevent damage


Ah that makes sense. I had images of you filling and whisking away a series of ziplock snack bags stacked inside one another!!! I'm really not very with it today.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

I've done the above with a few cups or glasses of the same weight before without needing waterproofing.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

If you're going with weighing, it's also worth checking the weight of your cups before you start - they can be remarkably different weights. If you're going with time, it's less of an issue...but perhaps weight is better


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## PeteHr (Nov 18, 2015)

Hi, I have the Hill and Valley in my Mignon at the moment - unfortunately nearing the end of the bag as I love it.

I just did a shot using a shot glass rather than a cup to have a closer look. I did 36 in 40 out in 25 seconds (I sometimes go slightly longer as well which I also like). After leaving it to settle for 30 secs or so I would say 25-30% as viewed in the shot glass was thick, dark crema. To me it tastes lovely...

This is quite a dark roast and produces a very full flavoured espresso - possibly a bit too full flavoured for many ! There is a slight bitterness but IMHO this is normal and expected in this type of roast and I don't find it unpleasant or overpowering at all !

One thing I have noticed is a few times I've tried to "hurry" my machine up so I can have a coffee in a hurry and I've noticed then that the crema seems much lighter than normal and the coffee tasted kinda washed out. I still don't recall any bitterness though.

Not sure where you live but it would certainly be an interesting exercise to compare yours and mine to see what we think !


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## Robbo (Feb 17, 2016)

36 in and 40 out..wow thats very different to my ratio but interesting to see you also get more crema than usual with the similar set up.

This morning i tried 16 in 30 out with a slightly finer grind which tasted better. I have had a couple of good shots out of this bag and when they have been good they are really good. When they are bad i have noticed some channeling in the puck which suggests its my inconsistency with tamping. Hopefully things will improve when i get a better tamper. (blame the tools!)

You are maybe an hour or so from me but thanks for the offer, it would be good to have someone with experience to see my technique and see how i could improve.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

36g in ( dose ) must be typo no basket can hold that


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## Mad Wally (Feb 24, 2016)

What do you do when crema becomes a problem? I am currently trying a new coffee (Arabica) that gives me so much crema that when I full the cup to the rim and the crema settles I don't even get close to my 34 gram.

Machine is a Rancilio Silvia PID with opv set at 9 bar (verified) with a 17 gram VST basket bottemless portafilter. Grinder is a Super Jolly with new (seasoned) burrs. Coffee is quite a dark roast one week old with small traces of oil.

I have already dropped two degrees C in temperature as it was too bitter. Bitterness is better now but huge amount of crema is still a problem unless I go to a regular coffee cup.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Stop the shot as your desired weight . Don't wait for crema to subside then weight . Keep the way you measure consistent each time . Sounds like you may be using volume and weight to stops shot ?

It's only a problem if it tastes bad . Stir the espresso before drinking.


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## smorgo (Nov 22, 2015)

Scotford said:


> Quick experiment on the taste note. Dial in to a recipe you're familiar with. Pull five shots:
> 
> Shot one, catch the first 10g
> 
> ...


Never thought of that. It's genius!


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## PeteHr (Nov 18, 2015)

Yep you are of course correct.

Should have been 18 in 40 out....

Sorry about that and hope I didn't confuse anyone !



Mrboots2u said:


> 36g in ( dose ) must be typo no basket can hold that


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