# v 60 Brewing + Hand Grinder



## Mrboots2u

Been doing alot of brewed coffee this month , as a result i feel I've got alot more consistent cups , hit alot more flavours in the cup and its something ill certainly be doing more of with each bean i get from now on ...

So whats putting you off trying ? Time to do it?

-Well i think I've got my v60 recipe down to under 4 minutes , using a hausgrind , and a kettle ...( I'll do a workflow clip later to see if this is true or not )

Here is one i made earlier

12 g of coffee ready to be ground ( this one is from - Small Batch Burundi Shembati Buziraguhindwa 250g -)

  

Ground with a Hausgrind - one whole turn and then between number 4 and 5 on the dial ) . Grind size wise looks like this

  

  

Then we are off to brew using the Matt Perger Method for v60 - Volvic Water in the Kettle

Start with 12g of ground coffee

add 50 g water stir or whisk , let bloom of 30 seconds

add 50g more of water let drip for another 30 seconds

at one minute mark add the other 100g ( we now have 200g added in total )

Hopefully you will get a nice even bed as the water draws down .......

With this coffee i brewed at 95 c and the total time was 2 minutes 11 , a few high and dry but not awful.....

I was like a slightly less strong cup than Mr P for v60 ...

  

So how did it taste....

  

For the first time ive brewed this coffee , its pretty spot on ..

There is a thick syrupy aroma and mouthfeel that's really great , its got sweet red fruitness to it ( poss cherry ? ) . Whats really outstanding on the first sip , is the perception of thick , syrup taste ( it isn't thick or in body per se )

How did it measure..

  

Ill put this in to show that not only did it taste great , but it was within the preferences of extraction yield I like

I measure nearly all my brews , i find it easier to look back at and get dial in points on various grinders.....Ill also change the grind and see what taste come bout compared to the extraction .

I always taste a cup before i refract it and note down descriptors....

1.31 tds ( little less strong the Matt ) and 20.30 extraction yield ( could argue a little over or under depending on your preferences )

ill try a recipe on the rhino for the same coffee and brew method .....

If anyones fussed , ill do a v60 brew clip ( with whisk how exciting .... )


----------



## jeebsy

What's the Lego for?


----------



## DoubleShot

Kinda looks like the box lid to the refractor (if that's what you call the device that measures tds?)


----------



## jeebsy

Mine didn't come with a Lego box


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Boots's is the 0-5 children's version


----------



## DoubleShot

Boots, how do you measure exact amounts of water such 50ml out of the kettle? Pouring into a measuring jug first would obviously affect the temperature you've just boiled at. Seen a few kettles available with adjustable digital temperature setting, which one do you have? Your opinion of it?

Edit: The clue is probably the Acaia scales underneath? Duh!


----------



## jeebsy

And the kettle with a pid...


----------



## Mrboots2u

DoubleShot said:


> Boots, how do you measure exact amounts of water such 50ml out of the kettle? Pouring into a measuring jug first would obviously affect the temperature you've just boiled at. Seen a few kettles available with adjustable digital temperature setting, which one do you have? Your opinion of it?
> 
> Edit: The clue is probably the Acaia scales underneath? Duh!


1ml water = 1g

yes i use acaia scales but any ones will do , if they can handle the weights of v60 water and cup

Hario ones are cheaper and have a timer also ....

I have a bonvita temp kettle , , if your using a standard pouring kettle , id pre heat it before adding the water in ... plus more water int he kettle the more likely it is to hold its temp for a while ....

Intention is to try this at work with a normal kettle and a metal milk jug , just to see whats achievable with not £s equipment...


----------



## The Systemic Kid

It's the Bonavita Electric Gooseneck - perfect for all forms of pour over methods. Only downside is the price - around £90.00 delivered.


----------



## jeebsy

Think Gary said that kettle made one of the biggest improvements to his brewed coffee.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

jeebsy said:


> I'm making more brewed now so could be worth considering although it's this or a stand mixer...decisions decisions...


Definitely, the kettle first.


----------



## Mrboots2u

The Systemic Kid said:


> Definitely, the kettle first.


absolutley


----------



## Mrboots2u

Will so try a bloom then all water in, in one method for the real non FAFF approach...


----------



## Phil104

Another +1 for the kettle - justified it as a Christmas present but I think they are brilliant (and potentially not a whole lot more than a thermapen and goose neck kettle combo - although there are cheaper versions of a goose neck kettle than the Hario one). They save time and add precision (I realised that I would get slightly different readings on the thermapen depending on where I put in our regular electric kettle).


----------



## garydyke1

jeebsy said:


> Think Gary said that kettle made one of the biggest improvements to his brewed coffee.


I did buddy, worth every penny. Getting into tea now as a result (where accurate water temp is critical)


----------



## garydyke1

Mrboots2u said:


> Will so try a bloom then all water in, in one method for the real non FAFF approach...


Try 2 x papers


----------



## Mrboots2u

Back on the v60 and brewed then perhaps

Any more cakes and mixer comments and ill create a new thread ...

So on another thread was a mention on whether the grind need to be dialled in as exact for brewed or not ...

So brew number 2

Small Batch - Bolivian - Roasted same date as the Burundi

  

Yep different coffee, different varietal and tasting notes, different roast , Lets see what happens ...

Same grinder , not touch ed the dial

Here's the grind again ...

  

Same dose 12 g , same brew method, same water added .. not sure of same draw down time

  

So how did it taste?

Well not as strong as i'd like , lacking in a little body , there are hints of what this coffee is like , chocolate and creaminess, just i want more , it could be sweeter. Its not a bad cup , its not a truly great one though ..This coffee has more to give , this drink just hints at it...

How did it measure?

  

There you go , my taste buds dont lie.. its week at 1.23tds and as a consequence the extraction yield comes in at 19.04%

marries up with the tasting notes , weak , not as sweet , not as much in there as id like......

So same grinder, same dose, same temp and brew method and process...

So whats going on ? Different coffee , different roast and varietal , not as soluable ? Yep there is me in the middle too..... So do Simply put need a finer grind to get more coffee in the cup ( if you keep all else the same... )

I in general prefer to keep my v60 the same process and adjust the grind , so thats what i'll do next time , to get a better cup and report back ....


----------



## DoubleShot

Boots, I'm following this thread with interest. Many thanks for posting the photos and all the detailed info.

I quite fancy trying a method of brewed coffee as an alternative to espresso. Whilst there's a big Aeropress fan base here, I've not yet made up my mind if that is to be the one and only method I try. And before anyone suggests it, I don't think I want to try getting into 2 or 3 different methods of brewed coffee as haven't yet got close to mastering making espresso yet, lol!


----------



## Mrboots2u

So tightened the hausgrind about half a number ( from 1 turn and between 4 and 5 to 1 whole turn to number 4 )

Same coffee ( the Bolivian from Small Batch )

Resulting drink 2mins 13 to draw down tds up 1.26

So a stronger brew and higher extraction yield ( 19. 5% ) . This is kinda irrelevant if it hasn't had an effect i the cup ( remember i taste first reftract Later )

More importantly, going finer had the desired effect , a tastier drink , bit more mouthfeel, little sweeter, more chocolate n the cup ..

Still would like a bit more , more godammit!!!! So another half turn tomorrow and lets see what the brew brings.....


----------



## c_squared

Is 95 degrees typically the right temp for brewed or do you sometimes change depending on the bean?

I have a thermapen so should really give measuring the temp a go and see what difference it can make.


----------



## Mrboots2u

c_squared said:


> Is 95 degrees typically the right temp for brewed or do you sometimes change depending on the bean?
> 
> I have a thermapen so should really give measuring the temp a go and see what difference it can make.


Oh i dont know to be honest , , with bigger brews like a chemex , the more you add in one go , the more the slurry will act as a hear sink. So you might start higher ...with a v60 this small , its hard to say , other than its another variable , and for these few ill try and sleep constant .....

i suppose a Higher temp = quicker and higher extraction and vice versa

Perger used 97 on whatever coffee he has in his Youtube clip

Ive used between 92-96. One of the things ill do is once ive played with grind , then water input , il have a look at temp ....


----------



## c_squared

Next time I make a cup of brewed I'll give it a go.


----------



## jeebsy

How are you doing it just now?


----------



## c_squared

Kalita wave. 15g coffee, 250g water. 30g of water to bloom and pulse the remainder in two or three lots, usually takes about two and half minutes in total. I have just been adding the water when it's off the boil and then leaving the pouring kettle on a very low simmer ring on the stove in between adding water.


----------



## Geordie Boy

Temperature is the one variable i can't control at work and I can tell when the temperature has been high or low 90's (high ends up being bitter for me and lower is almost under extracted). That's why I just stick with the Sowden now at work


----------



## jeebsy

c_squared said:


> Kalita wave. 15g coffee, 250g water. 30g of water to bloom and pulse the remainder in two or three lots, usually takes about two and half minutes in total. I have just been adding the water when it's off the boil and then leaving the pouring kettle on a very low simmer ring on the stove in between adding water.


I only check my initial pour - basing this laziness on a post by TSK from ages ago that said it's ok to use water just off the boil after that as the slurry will cool it down anyway.


----------



## c_squared

jeebsy said:


> I only check my initial pour - basing this laziness on a post by TSK from ages ago that said it's ok to use water just off the boil after that as the slurry will cool it down anyway.


Yeah I'll check the initial temp and then just keep the kettle ticking over as I have done.


----------



## jeebsy

You'd need to have some serious ninja timing skills otherwise, take it off the boil 20 secs before you're due to pour so it comes down to 93 right at the time your next 50/100ml is due. Too much aggro, man.


----------



## Geordie Boy

Mrboots2u said:


> Oh i dont know to be honest , , with bigger brews like a chemex , the more you add in one go , the more the slurry will act as a hear sink.


+1 for a higher temp with the Chemex. Not only is the grind volume quite large but the glass needs a bit to warm up as well. I might try running it under a hot tap and see if that's easier (I.e. warm it from the outside)


----------



## Steve7

Whisper it quietly, but home espresso is like chasing the end of a rainbow...

And making brewed coffee is not that hard. Keep the variables tight and you really need not fret about the odd degree or extra gm. Overthinking it rarely makes much difference.

Get in the ball park and it will taste great.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Glad all your drinks are tasty, all the time Steve ....and i dont have a problem making tasty espresso .....

For me a bit of change of grind or a gram here or there , makes a big difference in the cup ( for me if no one else ) and my drink is really all i care about







but if it helps others that aren't so lucky as you then thats all good too.....


----------



## Steve7

You have distorted my post completely,. Dissenting opinion on a forum tends to get warped into all out attack on the values that people adhere to without question.

I don't always get a great cup, but I find I do get as many right as when I take it far too seriously. As some who had all the gear years ago, I can now say happily that I sold it and make just as good coffee from a clever and a kettle. The mutltude of methods for a V60 still avoid the fact that in the end it's about pouring water on coffee and a huge amount of the rest is affectation and ostentation.

i like espresso, but it just a pain to do At home. Some of the set ups are faintly amusing to me, as they are missing the point that in the end it is a bit of a lottery. Get the ratio right, get the temperature close, and then you are going to get a good drink a lot of the time. Faffing with the micro detail just had me wasting coffee and never quite being happy.

Its my opinion. That's all.

But dont re write it to suit.


----------



## jeebsy

I find to get really good brewed you've got to pay a lot of attention to detail. The amount of shiddy brewed cafes serve up would indicate this too.


----------



## Steve7

You still need hot water and a kettle and not a lot more beside scales.

It really isn't hard. That was my point, but yes you still need some care. You don't need to overthink, but you need to keep the variables under control.

Then there is a point where it gets daft.


----------



## jeebsy

This looks like keeping the variables under control. When does it start getting daft?


----------



## Steve7

Obsessing about what kettle. How long to pre infuse. Fretting about how to pour. How much to pour for how long before the next pour.

Buying a better grinder because someone else has.

Measuring things because you can.

Seriously, I get my decent cup to bad cup ratio about the same with meticulous obsession and just a decent amount of care.

But hey, who says I am right. I don't profess to be. Just my opinion.

when I started it was a pain just getting fresh roasts, or decent green for my hottop. And then the issue was more about a reasonable grinder. Now we are lucky enough to have roasters everywhere and coffee kit all over the place people seem to have replaced that need with a need to obsess over the smallest details.

I have gone gone from a very espensive set up, to a hand grinder and a filter paper. I don't miss the mess.


----------



## Steve7

Guess what I am saying is don't confuse an expensive and interesting hobby with getting a better cup as you invest more (time and money).

You will do, but at a point it just becomes expensive and interesting as opposed to being significantly better.

A bit like cycling... My other passion.


----------



## jhosep

digital temperature setting,


----------



## jeebsy

Steve7 said:


> Obsessing about what kettle. How long to pre infuse. Fretting about how to pour. How much to pour for how long before the next pour.


The kettle is a way of measuring temp and isn't essential, but will agree to disagree about the importance of the rest. All affect TDS which dictates tastes.


----------



## Mrboots2u

How does the advise " dont take it too seriously " and keep the variables tight " help someone starting out.. Or how to correct a recipe or cup taste?

There are loads of pour over methods your right. Why not put some content up or constructive advise of your method to help people . I'm not attacking you, I'm just dont see the value of what your adding with those comments is for anyone.

Show a different way, give some constructive help, dont stand on the sidelines with your arms folded at a football match occasionally shouting " this is rubbish, I were better when I were a lad in me wooden clogs... " your post comes across as the equivalent of shouting " just hoof it up there at the goal "

In some earlier posts i related that ill do some recipes with a £25 rhino grinder , a normal kettle , and a milk jug, in an effort to see what the best cup can be without all the gear, so that people new to brewing can have some pointers on adjustments if they are struggling ...( not that i am in anyway way an expert , just making and drinking brews in an effort to help others do so too )

.anyway everyone enjoy there brews this morning , however you wanna make em


----------



## c_squared

Happy to report back some initial findings from this mornings cup. I measured the initial temp and took it to 95. The rest of my routine remained the same. The result in the cup was noticeable, much smoother, if that makes sense. I guess it's probably more accurate to say it didn't have a bitter edge that some of my brewed coffee can have. Thanks for the advice everyone, I'll be paying more attention to my initial water temp from here on in!


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Steve7 said:


> Guess what I am saying is don't confuse an expensive and interesting hobby with getting a better cup as you invest more (time and money).
> 
> You will do, but at a point it just becomes expensive and interesting as opposed to being significantly better.
> 
> A bit like cycling... My other passion.


I'm always up for limiting the amount of faff in life. With coffee some of it you find you do need, other bits you don't (although I usually find I replace it with new found faff).

Agree with Boots though in the suggestion of posting up your method as it will definitely help folk out.

Maybe we can see if he can duplicate it and see what he thinks.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Yep if steve has an all in one method for v60, I'm up for trying it , rather than trying to perfect one myself. We both have hausgrinds too.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

If you are attempting to get the best out of the bean in any pour over method - you are looking to achieve a consistent extraction yield (EY) whether you use a refractometer or not. That means achieving the best balance between the two competing variables - flavour profile and mouthfeel/body. Slightly lower EY than ideal will favour flavour profile but with weak mouthfeel/body whereas it will be the opposite with ideal higher EY. In my experience, the optimum EY comes in plus or minus 1% which leaves very little room for error and why good consistent technique is key.


----------



## jeebsy

Steve7 said:


> my decent cup to bad cup ratio


What is this, out of interest?


----------



## MWJB

Steve7 said:


> How long to pre infuse. Fretting about how to pour. How much to pour for how long before the next pour.


How to pour, how long & how precisely you measure things are the biggest drivers in what turns your hot water into "coffee", how that coffee tastes is directly related to how much dry coffee you turn into a drink...and this is directly related to the amounts you use & how fast it travels through the bed. These are the most important aspects of any percolation brew, if there are any variables you need to get under control it's these.


----------



## Step21

I think the cycling analogy is interesting. The "old school" cyclists will tell you that if you put in the miles you'll get just as fit eventually as you would on a specific training program with a power meter. They may be right. But what they have is experience.

IMO the same can be applied to coffee brewing. If you have enough experience and a good framework then you most probably can get decent brews within acceptable parameters without being aware of thinking too much about it. It becomes somewhat sub concious.

Mr. Boots & Glenn are trying to encourage folks to try brewed during "Febrewary". Manual brewing may seem daunting if you've never tried it.

Mr. Boots has kindly provided a very good V60 brewing framework for people to try out. Many thanks to him for taking the time and trouble to do this. He has also demonstrated via the refractometer that small adjustments do in fact significantly change how a brew tastes.

Whether we as brewers can be bothered to be as fastidious with our brews as Mr. Boots or more relaxed like Steve7 is our choice. But without some kind of solid foundation in the first place most of it isn't likely to taste very good.

As a relative newbie i am extremely grateful for the knowledge that the experienced and enthusiastic posters here share. My brewing, while still hit and miss, has improved greatly to the extent that the misses are now quite drinkable and not sink bound.

The "i've been there, got the t-shirt and it's all really very simple tack" is unsurprisingly not going to generate much bonhomi. I am however sure that it was meant with the best of intent - the voice of experience - to save us from getting too obsessed/frustrated from chasing perfection.

Can you take the obsession out of a hobby? Sounds kind of dull...


----------



## Steve7

I did offer advice on my method.

Try buying some scales, a reasonable grinder and a normal kettle. Get the right ratio of water to grinds, and just off the boil water.

Then in I use a clever and wait for three to four minutes.

My my point wasn't that I don't agree with things and wanted to say so, my point was My method is to jeep it as simple as possible and it works as many times as not (on the same ratio as when I obsess over every detail).

exact temperature, pour methods, changing grinders, and obsessive anaylisis of numbers hasn't yet increased my ratio of good cups.

It does add to the "interest" and sense of adventure but I have yet to link that to a significant impact on my cup. Often it is really hit and miss as to the grind and that's nothing to do with the rest.

So so my point remains that I don't see the details in brewed coffee having a direct link to cup in he same way that obsessing in espresso does. You can do it in a very simple way and win, and recognise the rest is fun to do not need to do.

((( edit.. Just read the post that slipped in above, and wanted to repeat that my input on is thread wasn't meant to be dismissive or a shrug with no value added. I was trying to offer a different opinion that was based on real experience, that being the cup is often as good when you just relax and don't try too hard. It's a contrary view that compliments the other views, and to be taken as part of a balanced mix of ideas. My view is a genuine reflection on my experience, not a dig at others.

In relation to cycling, you can't go faster longer by buying great kit. You can go faster longer by getting the basics , and then you can go faster for longer looking great. Some of the obsession seems to fit into the later analogy, where you get good coffee but a fair bit is the adventure and enjoying the ride rather than th output changing. ))

You hit the nail on the head ... Just be aware of when the obsession starts and the improving stops, and have fun! You can keep going and investing the time and cash but just be alive to it being for fun rather than improvement sometimes...


----------



## NickdeBug

It depends on your personal preferences.

Some people love the journey as much, and sometimes even more, than the destination. Others don't care how they get there just as long as the sun is shining when they arrive.

Room for both in my book.


----------



## fluffles

MrB - are you at 1 turn plus 4/5 from completely shut or from burrs just rubbing? Interested to compare my setting to yours.

There are those that think pour over is not a great method for consistently getting the same result due to it being so heavily influenced by technique. You can try and do the same thing over and over but pouring the water slightly differently will have a significant effect. These people tend to prefer immersion methods as it is more repeatable (e.g. french press/aeropress/clever).

Personally I use both aeropress (immersion) and kalita wave (pour over) and I just love the actual process of making a pour over - it's so hands on and you feel like you're really involved.

Great thread - interesting to see how these changes affect the TDS readings. Wish I could get hold of one of them gizmos!


----------



## Beanosaurus

Been thinking about this recently - has anybody tried an all-in-one pour over method then covered the top of the dripper with a lid to negate thermal loss?


----------



## MWJB

Beanosaurus said:


> Been thinking about this recently - has anybody tried an all-in-one pour over method then covered the top of the dripper with a lid to negate thermal loss?


I've done with Chemex and pulse pour methods, the last portion always takes longer to drain, so there's still heat loss in that last minute or 2.


----------



## NickdeBug

I think the Clever dripper has a lid


----------



## froggystyle

I dont think you need an all in one method, you could do your initial pour to soak the grinds, pop a lid on for 30 sceonds, lift off and do your second pour, replace lid..... ect ect... A nice clear plastic one would suffice.


----------



## MWJB

NickdeBug said:


> I think the Clever dripper has a lid


Clever dripper, when used in the typical manner, doesn't really compare to V60/pourover (immersion vs percolation)...unless you do use it like a V60/pourover, in which case... it does ;-)


----------



## Steve7

The clever is a french press with a filter. With a finer grind.

the V60 is a drip effectively.

Similar end product but they are not equal. For what it is worth my preferred methd is the syphon as it is clean, sharp, and has emphasised the muddies of press pot to the point where it gets on my nerves now.

I li use a clever at work and at home, or a technovorm when I need volume.

That's me happy. I love espresso but gave up on never quite getting it dialed in between beans. I just drink long black cups and for me that's all ever want. I get my espresso as a treat now, if I pass a decent independent.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Suggestions as what to do with this thread please as its now SK disjointed I don't think posting up the next recipe and tasting notes seems to make a lot of sense ......


----------



## johnealey

Carry on regardless! I'm still reading / appreciating and getting knowledge 

John


----------



## Mrboots2u

fluffles said:


> MrB - are you at 1 turn plus 4/5 from completely shut or from burrs just rubbing? Interested to compare my setting to yours.


Ill try and demonstrate with a clip as to where my setting is ...

Agree re pour technique and the effect.


----------



## BenL

Please carry on! I'm keen to see it back on track.

FWIW on my Hausgrind dial it gets finger tight at about 0.5, I can push through to -0.5 with some effort and I haven't wanted to try to go further.


----------



## Mrboots2u

BenL said:


> Please carry on! I'm keen to see it back on track.
> 
> FWIW on my Hausgrind dial it gets finger tight at about 0.5, I can push through to -0.5 with some effort and I haven't wanted to try to go further.


ok im gonna do some stuff with a rhino too

i turn the dial til burrs start to rub , then make that off as zero on the collar....


----------



## Mrboots2u

Ok well i will persevier then

Small Batch - Bolivian Brew 3

one number finer on the hausgrind ( nowt a 1.3 )

12g into 200g - temp 96c

Drinks cools

How did it taste?

Ye i knew this was better , more of what i thought this coffee was capable off. There is the chocolate , and the creamy yoghurt finish..its sweeter and more enjoyable...

How did it measure ?

Tds has gone up to 1.29 and Extraction Yield to 19.98% - doesnt sound alot .....by the cup isnt lying , there is a improved taste their to behold....

Next up the Rhino ....


----------



## Beanosaurus

Mrboots2u said:


> ok im gonna do some stuff with a rhino too
> 
> i turn the dial til burrs start to rub , then make that off as zero on the collar....


Hey Boots It's worth doing the blu-tack mod on the Rhino, the shaft wobble will still be present but it improves grind consistency at finer levels.


----------



## fluffles

How does the maths work with this figures?

I thought 1.29 TDS means that 1.29% if your result is coffee and the rest is water. So you have 200 * 0.0129 = 2.58g of coffee in your cup. For extraction yield, isn't that (2.58 / 12) * 100 = 21.5%?


----------



## MWJB

fluffles said:


> How does the maths work with this figures?
> 
> I thought 1.29 TDS means that 1.29% if your result is coffee and the rest is water. So you have 200 * 0.0129 = 2.58g of coffee in your cup. For extraction yield, isn't that (2.58 / 12) * 100 = 21.5%?


It's a bit more involved than that, you really need the software to get down to an accurate % extraction yield.


----------



## bpchia

Good thread. How do you convert TDS to yield?


----------



## Mrboots2u

bpchia said:


> Good thread. How do you convert TDS to yield?


You use coffee tools software ( made by vst ) along with the other variables you need - weight of coffee used ( dose ) beverage weight ( weight of coffee it makes )


----------



## bpchia

Ah thanks


----------



## Mrboots2u

Its important to remember that ultimately taste should be the guide in the adjustments you make ...

This thread is about what small changes you can make to variables and how they effect the taste ( vst is helpful because sometimes extraction and its related tastes aren't linear )

If people take one thing away from this thread , it shouldnt be about what an extraction yield is bit how small change s in grind can influence what's in the cup and help you reach a preference and balance.

Next few recipes will be about achieving balance but with changes in Bree ratio ( coffee and water used ) and changes in pouring .....


----------



## Step21

Just to add that this V60 technique is applicable to Clever dripper + Bonavita Immersion brewers as well. So you don't necessarily need a V60 brewer/filter to try it out.

Keeping the valve open (Bonavita) or placing Clever on a vessel you can follow the technique. Obviously the filter is different as is the shape but it still makes very tasty cups.


----------



## Step21

As i don't have a V60 brewer, I do my V60's in a chemex (size 2 chemex 3-6 cup) with a size 3 V60 filter paper. I'm not sure how it compares against a proper V60 brewer with an appropriate sized filter.

I find that i tend to grind finer than suggested (1.2 or 1.3 on the hausgrind). I lift the filter off the brewer at the 2min 45 mark and let it finish draining over a seperate cup (it tends to taste bitter).


----------



## Mrboots2u

Step21 said:


> As i don't have a V60 brewer, I do my V60's in a chemex (size 2 chemex 3-6 cup) with a size 3 V60 filter paper. I'm not sure how it compares against a proper V60 brewer with an appropriate sized filter.
> 
> I find that i tend to grind finer than suggested (1.2 or 1.3 on the hausgrind). I lift the filter off the brewer at the 2min 45 mark and let it finish draining over a seperate cup (it tends to taste bitter).


As an experiment , have you tried grinding little coarser and letting it run ( total time 2.10-20 ish )


----------



## Step21

Mrboots2u said:


> As an experiment , have you tried grinding little coarser and letting it run ( total time 2.10-20 ish )


What i have found is that if i grind coarser i seem to lose sweetness and end up with a brew on the sour side. Depends on the bean of course. But 1.2 / 1.25/ 1.3 grind settings seem to work best.

I've not deliberately set a grind to match a specific brew time like 2.10/20. That would be a lot coarser. But i'll give it a whirl. Try 1.5 on my current bean and see what happens...


----------



## Mrboots2u

Ok then perhaps with a little coarser brew just run through say 10-20 g more water and let it drip ...

Not really about the time i suppose , just an experiment

Perhaps you will end up with a more dilute but different balanced cup....

V60 with this recipe , then grind is so much dictated by the solubility of the bean / roast . Some of em are at 1.5 some at 1.3 ( to achieve same tds and ey .... )


----------



## Step21

Gave it a go a 1.5 on the hausgrind (1 full turn then 5 on the dial).

The brew came in at 5min 55sec! I pulled it at 3min. Consistent with what i've found is that with coarser grinds i can let the brew run longer before it turns bitter. It may just be the chemex/V60 combo that slows the flow? I need to go a lot coarser to get near 2min 10/20. Maybe try again later.

Tastewise, it was actually decent. This was an Ethiopian Sidamo. This brew tasted like a very delicate fruit tea to begin with, not very sweet, but not sour. Down the cup some nice caramel sweetness develops and the lime acidity really kicks in but leaves a dry/bitter finish on the tongue.


----------



## Step21

Meant to say that as regards flow - not a lot is coming through until all the water is in and i give it a good tamp. It then seems to flow pretty well until about 2min 45 when it stalls.


----------



## Mrboots2u

So coarser took longer ? confused unless temp has declined signifciantly


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> Meant to say that as regards flow - not a lot is coming through until all the water is in and i give it a good tamp. It then seems to flow pretty well until about 2min 45 when it stalls.


So you're tamping the grinds bed?


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> So you're tamping the grinds bed?


No tamping the chemex brewer


----------



## Step21

Mrboots2u said:


> So coarser took longer ? confused unless temp has declined signifciantly


Yes it's odd. Did a brew at 1.3 grind yesterday that finished in 4:30. Maybe i over stirred it during the first 30secs?


----------



## Mrboots2u

Step21 said:


> Yes it's odd. Did a brew at 1.3 grind yesterday that finished in 4:30. Maybe i over stirred it during the first 30secs?


Over stirring = evening out extraction across the bed . Not sure it would slow down extraction ....

MWJB?


----------



## Step21

Just watched the Perger video. I'm definitely stirring more than he is, so i'll reduce that next time. The shape of the 1 cup V60 brewer seems significantly shallower than the chemex, so i think that is a factor in slowing down my extractions? Really need to get a proper V60 1 cup brewer, after all they are pretty cheap!


----------



## Mrboots2u

Step21 said:


> Just watched the Perger video. I'm definitely stirring more than he is, so i'll reduce that next time. The shape of the 1 cup V60 brewer seems significantly shallower than the chemex, so i think that is a factor in slowing down my extractions? Really need to get a proper V60 1 cup brewer, after all they are pretty cheap!


One get a proper v60 - cheap as chips

Two get a mini whisk for stirring ...


----------



## Step21

Mrboots2u said:


> One get a proper v60 - cheap as chips
> 
> Two get a mini whisk for stirring ...


Yes a plastic one i see can be had for £5. Any real difference in the cup between plastic/ceramic?

What do these mini whisks look like?


----------



## MWJB

Mrboots2u said:


> Over stirring = evening out extraction across the bed . Not sure it would slow down extraction ....
> 
> MWJB?


MP's brews don't seem to buck any trends whether you stir, or not, time-wise. (I tend to see a ~0.05%TDS hike in stirred blooms over non-stirred at 60g/l).

Is everyone synchronised on where "0" is, fully locked grinder, or first rub on the burrs?


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> Is everyone synchronised on where "0" is, fully locked grinder, or first rub on the burrs?


 This could well be a factor.

Mr. Boots pic's of his grind at 1.4/1.5 on page 1 do look coarser than mine. I still notice a bit of clumping when i place the grinds in the filter at 1.5.


----------



## jeebsy

Are you tamping the chemex grinds?


----------



## Step21

jeebsy said:


> Are you tamping the chemex grinds?


 No. Once all water in, i lift the brewer up and tamp it hard on the work surface as in the MP video where he lifts the V60 brewer and whacks it down.


----------



## jeebsy

That's tapping


----------



## Step21

jeebsy said:


> That's tapping


 Apologies, i don't speak good coffee! I always thought tapping was borrowing money...


----------



## bpchia

Great thread, similar discussions going on at Matt Perger's new blog baristahustle.com where he is doing an article a week and generating a lot of discussion, he answers questions too. You guys probably already know about it but I'm finding it a great read


----------



## Step21

Tried another V60 with the same bean on a coarser grind (1.7 Hausgrind) which came in quicker at 3min 40 total time. Tastewise, it was different with more prominent lime acidity but a consistent mouth drying finish that i don't like. Still quite drinkable though and had similar sweetness to the brew at 1.5 grind (which i preferred). I'll try a 1.6 and a 1.8 tomorrow if enough beans left.


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> Tried another V60 with the same bean on a coarser grind (1.7 Hausgrind) which came in quicker at 3min 40 total time. Tastewise, it was different with more prominent lime acidity but a consistent mouth drying finish that i don't like. Still quite drinkable though and had similar sweetness to the brew at 1.5 grind (which i preferred).


This is very interesting, you are saying that the 3:40 brew was more bitter/drying than the 4:30 brew? When I started doing pourovers I had some delicious brews at, what I would now consider, bizarre brew times...only recently have I started really taking note of brew times again. I'd love to know what's going on here, maybe flow rate vs extraction isn't a linear relationship?


----------



## Mrboots2u

MWJB said:


> This is very interesting, you are saying that the 3:40 brew was more bitter/drying than the 4:30 brew? When I started doing pourovers I had some delicious brews at, what I would now consider, bizarre brew times...only recently have I started really taking note of brew times again. I'd love to know what's going on here, maybe flow rate vs extraction isn't a linear relationship?


Time to get the acaia app out perhaps .....

Changing temp down 10 c elongated the extraction time ( this though wasn't a surprise )

Changing grind , doesnt seem to have the linear effect on extraction that you would think

I sadly do log all my brew times and EY .. If you want some more boring data , i can send you it


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> This is very interesting, you are saying that the 3:40 brew was more bitter/drying than the 4:30 brew? When I started doing pourovers I had some delicious brews at, what I would now consider, bizarre brew times...only recently have I started really taking note of brew times again. I'd love to know what's going on here, maybe flow rate vs extraction isn't a linear relationship?


 Just brewed a 1.6 grind which came in at 4:10. I pulled it at 3min. The discard from 3min to 4:10 was bitter tasting. I didn't pull the 1.7 brew at all. Tastewise it's closer to the 1.5 than the 1.7. Delicate, tea like, lime acidity with some sweetness but still that drying finish. In that respect it's identical to the 1.7. It may be possible that a bit of a head cold is interfering here but i had an ibrik this morning (different bean) which had no drying effect. Can this perhaps just be a characteristic of the bean?

I might just have enough left for a final brew later. I think i'll go finer maybe 1.4 and see what happens tastewise.


----------



## Mrboots2u

If you drink an espresso in three parts some will be nicer than others.( front and back bits don't taste balanced per set to me ) Taste and extraction yield though is to some degree a balance of all the bits together .. Difference in espresso is that with a pump you kill a shot ( yes I know levers pull the cup ) ...

Perhaps your achieving balance via killing the extraction as opposed to altering the grind to curtail it?


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> Just brewed a 1.6 grind which came in at 4:10. I pulled it at 3min. The discard from 3min to 4:10 was bitter tasting. I didn't pull the 1.7 brew at all.


OK, so are you typically pulling away the brewer at a given time (02:45 to 03:00), but recording the total brew time as the time it takes for the residual water to drain, even if it doesn't get in the cup?


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> OK, so are you typically pulling away the brewer at a given time (02:45 to 03:00), but recording the total brew time as the time it takes for the residual water to drain, even if it doesn't get in the cup?


Yes. Exactly. I tend to pull the brew after 3mins by lifting out the filter(with water & grinds) off the brewer and onto another vessel to complete the drain. I always taste this to see what it's like. 9 times out of 10 it is bitter and i wouldn't want it in the cup. Typically this is no more than 20ml, but it can take 2mins or more to get that last few ml's out. No doubt this effects overall TDS etc... but i can't measure that. I'm just looking for the tastiest possible cup.


----------



## jeebsy

Have you tried the Matt perger method?


----------



## Step21

Final brew at 1.4 setting on the Hausgrind. Bang on the money! Tasted great. Delicate sweet (much sweeter) gentle fruit tea with just a hint of the lime acidity. No bitter sensation on the tongue but still a slightly drying effect. This is a weird bean as sometimes the finish was juicy (thirst quenching) and at others drying on the mouth!

This brew came through at 3min 14sec, i didn't pull it as at 3min it was almost done. I know - finer grind should take longer than coarser. I don't know why this happens. But did Gary not do something similar on the EK chemex thread where there was a point where finer filtered quicker? I'm using a V60 filter in a chemex, so maybe in the dynamics it's more akin to a chemex brew?

Boffin thread post #19

I did introduce a mini whisk bought this morning to todays brews to stir the bloom. Certainly easier than a spoon.

If nothing else it proves MrBoots point that small changes in grind can have a big effect on the taste outcome. Thanks chaps! Next bean please...


----------



## Step21

jeebsy said:


> Have you tried the Matt perger method?


 Yes. This is it applied to a size 3 V60 filter in a chemex vessel.


----------



## jeebsy

Step21 said:


> Yes. This is it applied to a size 3 V60 filter in a chemex vessel.


If its taking a minute longer,and you're pulling the brewer before drawdown is complete, can you really say you're following the method?


----------



## Step21

jeebsy said:


> If its taking a minute longer,and you're pulling the brewer before drawdown is complete, can you really say you're following the method?


Only difference is the drain time - everything else as he does it. I'm just being pragmatic by pulling the brew. After all i want to drink it.


----------



## jeebsy

The drain time is pretty crucial. Why not coarsen up?


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> Yes. Exactly. I tend to pull the brew after 3mins by lifting out the filter(with water & grinds) off the brewer and onto another vessel to complete the drain. I always taste this to see what it's like. 9 times out of 10 it is bitter and i wouldn't want it in the cup. Typically this is no more than 20ml, but it can take 2mins or more to get that last few ml's out. No doubt this effects overall TDS etc... but i can't measure that. I'm just looking for the tastiest possible cup.


OK, there's nothing wrong with doing this, it's a perfectly reasonable way to make a pourover and your results are tasty.

The tricky part comes when trying to convey parameters to others. E.g. you start with "x" amount of water & grinds...a brew ratio. This would normally be indicative of a reasonably predictable beverage weight based on an assumed proportion of brew water being held back in the bed, if you still have water above the bed at the time you stop extracting into your cup/carafe, you have skewed the reported brew ratio. The total brew time also doesn't reflect the time in which you're making a good extraction.

E.g. for 12g water & 200g of brew water in a V60/similar, I'd expect a reasonable brew time to be 2:10 +/-10sec, plus bloom, with all the visible brew water draining from above the bed at the total brew time (maybe leave a few extra moments for residual drips), & 170-180g of finished coffee in the cup.

Like I said, the way you are doing is just fine (the Japanese seem to do this a lot), probably results in a stronger cup for the coffee & water amounts quoted, but if it tastes sweet & juicy, it's still a good extraction...just a bit harder for the rest of us to fill in the blanks of how much lands in the cup & how much is still above the bed when you pull the brewer & therefore replicate.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Step21 said:


> I did introduce a mini whisk bought this morning to todays brews to stir the bloom. Certainly easier than a spoon.


One of us ..one of us.....


----------



## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


> One of us ..one of us.....


They're whisks Michael....


----------



## Step21

Apologies if i've confused anyone but in my first post #71 i stated explicitly that i was typically pulling the brew at around 2min 45.

I'm following the Matt Perger V60 method with a pragmatic point of view. Using my setup to get a brew time of 2min 10ish and all liquid drained i would need a very coarse grind and it would not taste good. I'm trying to get a good V60 out of my non standard setup - I wouldn't expect anyone to replicate this.


----------



## Step21

jeebsy said:


> They're whisks Michael....


£2 it cost me. Never seen nor used one of these before. What are they actually intended to whisk other than coffee?


----------



## jeebsy

Step21 said:


> Apologies if i've confused anyone but in my first post #71 i stated explicitly that i was typically pulling the brew at around 2min 45.
> 
> I'm following the Matt Perger V60 method with a pragmatic point of view. Using my setup to get a brew time of 2min 10ish and all liquid drained i would need a very coarse grind and it would not taste good. I'm trying to get a good V60 out of my non standard setup - I wouldn't expect anyone to replicate this.


Try it for the lols



Step21 said:


> £2 it cost me. Never seen nor used one of these before. What are they actually intended to whisk other than coffee?


I got one last week for 90p. Don't think they're designed for coffee, maybe tiny amounts of sabayon or something?


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> Using my setup to get a brew time of 2min 10ish and all liquid drained i would need a very coarse grind and it would not taste good. I'm trying to get a good V60 out of my non standard setup - I wouldn't expect anyone to replicate this.


Well, it might actually taste OK, if a little weaker than you currently are getting. A coarse grind will only taste worse if you can't hit the same level of extraction (can't get past sour, acidic), there is a wide range of grinds that will net you a ~2:10 brew time from 12g of grinds & 200g of water. Perger was recently suggesting the coarser, the better.

The differences between a V60 & Chemex (preheated), with the same paper, are typically overstated.


----------



## Step21

I am now the proud owner of a size 1 plastic Hario V60 and filters for the grand sum of £10. With £2 for a mini whisk that a whopping £12 outlay - so it had better be good!

As it turns out it sits really nicely on top the 3-6 cup chemex vessel and thus acts as a carafe.

I note that the brewer is ribbed unlike the chemex and also it indicates that 3min is the "right" time for a brew with 10-12g.

So i did a comparison of the same V60 technique with same bean/grind (1.4 on hausgrind)/dose/temp/pour/water to compare the V60 (size 3) brewed on a chemex versus a standard V60 size 1.

Bean is the Hasbean IMM Brazilian Fazenda Passelo

V60 size 1 - felt like i was pouring into a dolls cup compared to the big chemex! 50ml bloom comes much higher up the cup and is easier to stir. All water drained in exactly 3min. So all in the cup. Taste - Very smooth mouthfeel, consistent brew, quite sweet with noticeable melon fruit, little acidity, slightly nutty towards finish rather than biscuit. Very pleasant and akin to V60's i've had in cafe's.

V60 size 3 - Pulled brew at 3min, finished at 4:10. Taste - much more delicate than above. Less sweet but more nutty and distictly biscuity on finish but couldn't detect any melon. Slightly drying on the finish but not much.

Tastewise, the standard V60 size 1 wins.

I'll now coarsen the grind to get down to nearer a 2min brew and taste the difference.


----------



## Step21

The afternoon's V60 experiments have not gone as anticipated. I've been making standard V60 using the Perger technique and gradually coarsening the grind.

Hausgrind grind 1.4 was a winner tastewise and it's all gone downhill from there.

1.4 took 3mins. Tasted great.

1.5 took 3:37 to drain. Tastewise not too bad. Quite drinkable. Losing sweetness and weaker mouthfeel.

1.6 took 2:45. Sinkshot - tasted astringent to me

1.7 took 2:42 Another sinkshot - very similar to 1.6

1.8 took 2:41 Better than previous 2 brews - some sweetness/nuttiness - drinkable

1.9 took 2:57 - Sinkshot getting sour

1.10 took 2:30 - near to the Perger 2:20 but tasted awful - sour - sinkshot

I probably still have problems distinguishing sometimes between sour & bitter in coffee but these brews were bad. I can't face any more today!

I watched the Perger video and i most definitely had the correct amount of fluid in at the same times. 50ml bloom, stir, next 50ml at 30s, rest in starting at 1min and all in by 1:17. Tap. His seems to drain quicker.


----------



## jeebsy

I've been on the V60s all day, coarsened up slightly as last few have been spocked (RIP) at 1.4tds/23-24% EY, flavours a bit indisctinct. EK paradox means drawdown still taking around the same time

Hitting 1.25-1.3 with 18-20% EY consistently and all have been mighty tasty. HB Kebel Kercha in particular being a knockout.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Step21 said:


> The afternoon's V60 experiments have not gone as anticipated. I've been making standard V60 using the Perger technique and gradually coarsening the grind.
> 
> Hausgrind grind 1.4 was a winner tastewise and it's all gone downhill from there.
> 
> 1.4 took 3mins. Tasted great.
> 
> 1.5 took 3:37 to drain. Tastewise not too bad. Quite drinkable. Losing sweetness and weaker mouthfeel.
> 
> 1.6 took 2:45. Sinkshot - tasted astringent to me
> 
> 1.7 took 2:42 Another sinkshot - very similar to 1.6
> 
> 1.8 took 2:41 Better than previous 2 brews - some sweetness/nuttiness - drinkable
> 
> 1.9 took 2:57 - Sinkshot getting sour
> 
> 1.10 took 2:30 - near to the Perger 2:20 but tasted awful - sour - sinkshot
> 
> I probably still have problems distinguishing sometimes between sour & bitter in coffee but these brews were bad. I can't face any more today!
> 
> I watched the Perger video and i most definitely had the correct amount of fluid in at the same times. 50ml bloom, stir, next 50ml at 30s, rest in starting at 1min and all in by 1:17. Tap. His seems to drain quicker.


Could be two things

Roast and solubility of coffee

Temp at which you are brewing ( MP is at 97 for that clip )

In the end go by taste , ive had good 205 ey brews in 2 mins dead and some at 2.30 ..try not to get too much hung up on time , as it doesn't seem directly linear to taste or extraction yields ..


----------



## MWJB

Thanks for trying this out & reporting back...above & beyond the call! Remember, if trying out test brews spit, don't swallow, to keep the caffeine in check.

If his grind is more even (with a similar average grind size, just less fines) it will drain a bit quicker, with a less even grind it may be best to shoot a little under 2:20? Say 2:10?

Not sure why the brew time jumped up again to 2:57 at 1.9, typo?

You might be wondering at this point whether taste preferences are out of whack, what the fuss about this technique is, but I suspect you are just getting closer to getting into the nominal range? Ultimately it's about a method that you can use to repeatedly hit good brews & if that happens for you at 3:00 then so be it...but you have got us all curious now to see what happens as you get closer to 2:00!


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> Thanks for trying this out & reporting back...above & beyond the call! Remember, if trying out test brews spit, don't swallow, to keep the caffeine in check.
> 
> If his grind is more even (with a similar average grind size, just less fines) it will drain a bit quicker, with a less even grind it may be best to shoot a little under 2:20? Say 2:10?
> 
> Not sure why the brew time jumped up again to 2:57 at 1.9, typo?
> 
> You might be wondering at this point whether taste preferences are out of whack, what the fuss about this technique is, but I suspect you are just getting closer to getting into the nominal range? Ultimately it's about a method that you can use to repeatedly hit good brews & if that happens for you at 3:00 then so be it...but you have got us all curious now to see what happens as you get closer to 2:00!


No not a typo. Don't know why it spiked up again?

I'll try another couple of coarser brews tomorrow and revisit the finer one to check that still works! I didn't drink the sinkshots - couple of sips was enough! A pity i don't have something more objective to report with.

But the good news is that i have been given the all clear to purchase a VST refrac machine. I'm going to take a few days to decide whether to take the plunge.


----------



## Step21

Thought i'd add in the extra results from going coarser. So far

1.4 took 3mins. Tasted great.

1.5 took 3:37 to drain. Tastewise not too bad. Quite drinkable. Losing sweetness and weaker mouthfeel.

1.6 took 2:45. Sinkshot - tasted astringent to me

1.7 took 2:42 Another sinkshot - very similar to 1.6

1.8 took 2:41 Better than previous 2 brews - some sweetness/nuttiness - drinkable

1.9 took 2:57 - Sinkshot getting sour

1.10 took 2:30 - near to the Perger 2:20 but tasted awful - sour - sinkshot

Add on

1.11 took 2:28 - drinkable but weak and lacking flavour

2.0 took 2:36 - Much better - second best tastewise after 1.4 brew - sweetness, flavours , but got a bit bitter toward bottom of cup

2.1 took 2:43 - not good "stewed" flavour, no sweetness

Yesterday i re-tried a 1.4 brew (coming in at 3:20) - it was average, drinkable but nothing like the first one!

So, i'm finding it difficult to get down to 2:20 whatever the grind with this technique and the total times are pretty erratic despite having all the water in by 1:20 in every brew.

Can someone confirm whether they are pre-wetting the filter? - i was assuming this but best to check.

I'm also noting that using the mini whisk seems to push more grinds high & dry up the sides of the filter and some grinds seem to cling on to the whisk "mesh" after stirring.

Clearly there must be some user error on my part.

Think i'll revert back to immersion brewing for the time being ... safer ground!


----------



## jeebsy

Pre wet the filter yeah.

I just use the whisk to give things a wee stir, especially at the base of the cone, but it's not mad vigorous.


----------



## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> Pre wet the filter yeah.
> 
> I just use the whisk to give things a wee stir, especially at the base of the cone, but it's not mad vigorous.


Same as above , 5 stirs , right to the base


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> 1.4 took 3mins. Tasted great.
> 
> 1.5 took 3:37 to drain. Tastewise not too bad. Quite drinkable. Losing sweetness and weaker mouthfeel.
> 
> 1.6 took 2:45. Sinkshot - tasted astringent to me
> 
> 1.7 took 2:42 Another sinkshot - very similar to 1.6
> 
> 1.8 took 2:41 Better than previous 2 brews - some sweetness/nuttiness - drinkable
> 
> 1.9 took 2:57 - Sinkshot getting sour
> 
> 1.10 took 2:30 - near to the Perger 2:20 but tasted awful - sour - sinkshot
> 
> Add on
> 
> 1.11 took 2:28 - drinkable but weak and lacking flavour
> 
> 2.0 took 2:36 - Much better - second best tastewise after 1.4 brew - sweetness, flavours , but got a bit bitter toward bottom of cup
> 
> 2.1 took 2:43 - not good "stewed" flavour, no sweetness


Odd that the times are beginning to stretch out again as you go past 2 turns. Perhaps fines are increasing again past a certain point.

Maybe go back to 1.10-1.11, try and get the water in by 1:10.

Is this the same coffee throughout? Sorry, if you have already mentioned it, but is your temp in range at time of pour (95-97C)?


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> Odd that the times are beginning to stretch out again as you go past 2 turns. Perhaps fines are increasing again past a certain point.
> 
> Maybe go back to 1.10-1.11, try and get the water in by 1:10.
> 
> Is this the same coffee throughout? Sorry, if you have already mentioned it, but is your temp in range at time of pour (95-97C)?


Yes it 's been the same coffee throughout. Last weeks Hasbean IMM Brazilian. I'm using a thermapen and when the kettle temp comes down to 96C i'm putting the lid back on and pouring within the next 10secs. So temp at pour should be 95C - 95.5C

I tried a 1.10 (gring setting) as you suggested, with all water in by 1:10 and cut down on the stirring aka Jeebsy & MrBoots (went back to a teaspoon 4 stirs N/S then E/W twice right down to the bottom of the cone) - result all drained by 2:08!

However, it tasted rank!

Then tried a 1.5 coming in at 2:57 - (previous 1.5 was 3:37) - just drinkable - some sweetness but really not good at all.

Clearly the amount of stirring is a factor in the resulting drain time.

Only got 1 brew left...


----------



## fluffles

What water are you using? If it's really soft then that might mean that it needs longer to extract the coffee?

Maybe try a french press, far fewer variables!


----------



## Mrboots2u

fluffles said:


> What water are you using? If it's really soft then that might mean that it needs longer to extract the coffee?
> 
> Maybe try a french press, far fewer variables!


Good call , another variable in play.... I use volvic currently ( i have some clear ill try same coffee v60 and grind later and see if that makes a massive difference )


----------



## Mrboots2u

Step21 said:


> Yes it 's been the same coffee throughout. Last weeks Hasbean IMM Brazilian. I'm using a thermapen and when the kettle temp comes down to 96C i'm putting the lid back on and pouring within the next 10secs. So temp at pour should be 95C - 95.5C
> 
> I tried a 1.10 (gring setting) as you suggested, with all water in by 1:10 and cut down on the stirring aka Jeebsy & MrBoots (went back to a teaspoon 4 stirs N/S then E/W twice right down to the bottom of the cone) - result all drained by 2:08!
> 
> However, it tasted rank!
> 
> Then tried a 1.5 coming in at 2:57 - (previous 1.5 was 3:37) - just drinkable - some sweetness but really not good at all.
> 
> Clearly the amount of stirring is a factor in the resulting drain time.
> 
> Only got 1 brew left...


I can only think its temp ( but you are measuring this ) or the grind is consisent from brew to brew . Water might be at play , but what is causing your differences of 30 seconds ????

My times across same coffee and same grind are pretty stable...


----------



## Step21

Mrboots2u said:


> I can only think its temp ( but you are measuring this ) or the grind is consisent from brew to brew . Water might be at play , but what is causing your differences of 30 seconds ????
> 
> My times across same coffee and same grind are pretty stable...


I've been using Waitrose essentials Stretton Hills throughout.

I think it must have something to do with the stirring. To much stirring pulverising the grinds?

I've just taken the hausgrind apart and given it a good clean and inspection and all seems fine. Noting that burrs closed "0" has shifted to "-0.1". So that my 1.4 is really 1.5.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Ok we are into boots sad world now but I use the whisk 5 times in a circle to the bottom same as I can each time . each poor is 5 seconds for 50 g 10-11 for the 100 g ...


----------



## MWJB

Mrboots2u said:


> My times across same coffee and same grind are pretty stable...


...not wanting to rub it in Step21, but this is the sort of pattern I'd expect to see as you slow down the flow rate (by grinding finer and/or stretching out the pour)...








[/url]


----------



## fluffles

Has anyone tried scaling the Perger method? If you increase coffee and water amounts, should it brew for longer or are we still aiming at the same time? I was thinking of trying 15g/250g. Might try inserting an additional 50g pour at 1:00 and then doing the final 100g pour at 1:30. In theory this should extend the time by 30 seconds or so.


----------



## jeebsy

MWJB's chart above is for 15g of coffee


----------



## Mrboots2u

fluffles said:


> Has anyone tried scaling the Perger method? If you increase coffee and water amounts, should it brew for longer or are we still aiming at the same time? I was thinking of trying 15g/250g. Might try inserting an additional 50g pour at 1:00 and then doing the final 100g pour at 1:30. In theory this should extend the time by 30 seconds or so.


Your changing the rate at which the water is going through and the amount of coffee you are using , you are going to need to make adjustments to the grind.....


----------



## MWJB

fluffles said:


> Has anyone tried scaling the Perger method? If you increase coffee and water amounts, should it brew for longer or are we still aiming at the same time? I was thinking of trying 15g/250g. Might try inserting an additional 50g pour at 1:00 and then doing the final 100g pour at 1:30. In theory this should extend the time by 30 seconds or so.


Pssst, pssst...look up, my previous post, nudge nudge....

Yes, you can scale up but the time will increase with brew size...until the brews get really, really big, then it will start to decrease again. E.g. the top brew on the table above 15:250 in 3min, ball park extraction & flow rate comparable to some of my 12:200 Perger St Ali method brews.

As the brews get progressively larger, the water needs to travel through the deeper bed faster, to avoid overextraction...so if you were doing a 30g:500g brew I'd start with 125g water, start adding up to 250g total @ 45sec, then start adding up to 500g total @ another 45sec interval (all in by 1:40-1:50), aiming ~3:45 finish, or about 1.8 to 2.2g/second flow rate?


----------



## peterpan

Do you guys do 15:250 on V60-02? What is the suggested input-output-time on the 02?

Thanks


----------



## Step21

Tried a different approach (on a different bean) just now with interesting (to me!) results.

Dose 12g/200. Water 50/50 Stretton Hills/Clearview. Grind 1.4 on Hausgrind.

60 sec bloom 25g 97C water.

At 1 min pour 100ml & turn whisk round a few times.

At 1:30 add rest. Tap.

Finish 2:38

Resulted in a very fruity cup with good sweetness- almost perfect - but slightly drying on the tongue, so probs a tad over.

In comparison to my previous attempts at this grind using the Perger method it's substantially quicker. Different bean of course.

Essentially, after the bloom i'm getting 175ml through in 1:38. I'm wondering why? Is the longer bloom resulting in subsequent water coming through quicker?


----------



## Mrboots2u

In espresso the longer the pre infusion the quikcer the subsequent exaction ( if grind and dose remain static )

Bloom here = pre infusion , same forces are at play ?


----------



## jeebsy

Kebel Kercha, came in about 2.10, thought it might be slightly under but that has brought a bit more clarity - absolutely beautiful cup, blueberries all over the place but really zings in the mouth too.

When do folks pull the brewer after the bed drains? Leave it to drip? Or pull it before the last few drops come through?


----------



## MWJB

Drip brewing ratios assume a reasonably consistent amount of brew water held back in the bed, so I'd time the brew to the point that any standing water disappears from on top of the bed (as this is easy to see) & then leave the brewer a few moments & check that dripping has largely stopped or just a drip every few tens of seconds. I find there's usually a pretty obvious cut off in drippage.

Whipping the brewer away when there is still a reasonable stream of drips could skew how much beverage you get & your result/extraction...if it's only +/- a gram or two then no great worries. If your grind & pour are OK then you can't overextract by leaving the brewer to drip...& if you do, then that's nature's way of telling you to coarsen up a tad


----------



## fluffles

Had a great cup this morning of Rave Rwanda Gisuma. Perger method but scaled up to 15/250.

00:00 50g bloom.

00:30 Add 50g more (100g total)

01:00 Add 50g more (150g total)

01:30 Add 100g more (250g total)

02:50 - Done.

As a side note, the drain tends to slow quite a lot towards the end. If I think it's going really slowly then I tend to give it a gentle stir to help let the water through.


----------



## MWJB

peterpan said:


> Do you guys do 15:250 on V60-02? What is the suggested input-output-time on the 02?
> 
> Thanks


There isn't one for the brewer, it depends on your coffee & water weights. Try 2:30 to 3:00 plus bloom.


----------



## peterpan

Thank you MWJB. I phrased my question awkwardly. Meant to ask about all three variables for V60-02 not just the time. The recipes here are for V60-01, I believe.

So for 02, how much:

coffee

water

time?

Cheers


----------



## Mrboots2u

rightly or wrong i use same recipe for 01 /02

mine is the 12g 200g mp recipe .......


----------



## fluffles

fluffles said:


> Had a great cup this morning of Rave Rwanda Gisuma. Perger method but scaled up to 15/250.
> 
> 00:00 50g bloom.
> 
> 00:30 Add 50g more (100g total)
> 
> 01:00 Add 50g more (150g total)
> 
> 01:30 Add 100g more (250g total)
> 
> 02:50 - Done.
> 
> As a side note, the drain tends to slow quite a lot towards the end. If I think it's going really slowly then I tend to give it a gentle stir to help let the water through.


So this was last week. This week, with exactly the same everything (coffee, grind, water, temperature, etc) it runs way slower and there is water still above the grounds at 3:10 and going very slowly.

I went a notch coarser this morning and it was still the same. I find pour over to be great when you get it right, but very hard to do consistently well.


----------



## MWJB

Maybe best to just let the brew drain naturally rather than stir the bed at the end to speed it up. Your 2:50 brew would then have been a longer brew time & really needed a coarser grind to hit 2:50. The brew will typically slow as the last part drains as the bed is more compacted and the weight of water above is less.

That said, for a V60 in those proportions, 3:10 doesn't look like a bad brew time.


----------



## fluffles

MWJB said:


> Maybe best to just let the brew drain naturally rather than stir the bed at the end to speed it up. Your 2:50 brew would then have been a longer brew time & really needed a coarser grind to hit 2:50. The brew will typically slow as the last part drains as the bed is more compacted and the weight of water above is less.
> 
> That said, for a V60 in those proportions, 3:10 doesn't look like a bad brew time.


I wasn't doing any stirring last week, that's just something I've done in the past. 3:10 is not the brew time, it's the time I gave up and stopped the brew. This wasn't really the point, the point is that nothing has changed and yet the brew is behaving very differently.


----------



## Mrboots2u

fluffles said:


> I wasn't doing any stirring last week, that's just something I've done in the past. 3:10 is not the brew time, it's the time I gave up and stopped the brew. This wasn't really the point, the point is that nothing has changed and yet the brew is behaving very differently.


Are Your are stirring . this is different to the well before ? and could be enabling a more even extraction( possibly longer ? ) than when your were not stirring .....

Is temp constant - lower temp = slower extraction


----------



## MWJB

OK, but perhaps we're concentrating on a less relevant issue & there are things that may have changed without being visually obvious?

Without knowing the extraction yield, you are left with a pour regime, dose, brew ratio & brew time. Your method looks consistent, but the coffee may act differently over time & may be subtle differences from batch to batch...so this leaves grind. The right grind for that method & time will shift a little to achieve a similar yield. I don't know what the adjuster pitch for the Hausgrind is, but 1/12th of a turn can't be much more than 0.08mm difference in burr gap at most? There's perhaps room for the other variables to negate this.


----------



## fluffles

Mrboots2u said:


> Are Your are stirring . this is different to the well before ? and could be enabling a more even extraction( possibly longer ? ) than when your were not stirring .....
> 
> Is temp constant - lower temp = slower extraction


Everything's the same. Same grind, aame temp, same water, same technique - just a stir at the beginning as per the Perger method. The only conclusion I can come to is that the coffee has aged and needs a coarser grind. I'm just a bit surprised at the suddenness of this and that the change required is more than 1 number on the hausgrind. I'm at the end of the bag so we will never know!


----------



## MWJB

peterpan said:


> Thank you MWJB. I phrased my question awkwardly. Meant to ask about all three variables for V60-02 not just the time. The recipes here are for V60-01, I believe.
> 
> So for 02, how much:
> 
> coffee
> 
> water
> 
> time?
> 
> Cheers


Sorry Peterpan, missed this...

You should be able to translate any of the recipes mentioned here to the 02, only adjusting grind to steer the brew time.

So 12g to 200g in ~2:10 plus bloom

15g to 250g in ~2:30 plus bloom

30g to 500g in ~3:45 plus bloom

...assuming there is no significant flow during the bloom, but if adding 25% of the brew water & stirring, you're going to get extract dripping through from the off, so don't add bloom time.


----------



## froggystyle

I have this vision of you mwjb, sitting in a big room surrounded by various test tubes, piles of ground coffee, lots of brews at different stages whilst probing them them with your Spock meter and scribbling on notepads..... Go on tell me I'm right?


----------



## MWJB

Wrong! ...It's a small kitchen, not a big room & I stand...;-)

You forgot the spreadsheets.


----------



## Mrboots2u

MWJB said:


> Wrong! ...It's a small kitchen, not a big room & I stand...;-)
> 
> You forgot the spreadsheets.


And pie charts.....

Mmmm pie ........


----------



## froggystyle

Now i want a pie!


----------



## jlarkin

This looks like a very interesting thread. Sorry to comment just to bring it up my list but that's kinda what I'm doing.

Also interesting it's nearly 4 months since last comment. Has v60 brewing moved on in that time?  and did froggy get his pie?


----------

