# What size basket?



## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

I have a newly acquired Gaggia Classic, so looking at baskets. I may go down the VST route at some point, but I have a general question. Simply put, what's the point in different size baskets when you can just fill up a standard double basket half way, third of the way or whatever? Is there any advantage in having a smaller basket, and if so what? I know there are disadvantages as well, because the VST 15mm basket is harder to work with than the 18mm.

Fill me in on the theory and practice here please!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

You can put a wide range of coffee in a basket but overfill one or under fill one at it can lead to channeling and pour extractions > poor taste.

Ive seen people talk of shoving 20g in a standard stock basket , but it will be too much coffee for that basket, and it wont have enough room to expand when the water hits it .

Too little and there is not enough depth of coffee to give a good extraction .

The precision baskets like vst hence have a dose of plus or minus 1g .

Why then do you need different baskets , to make more or less espresso .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If you are getting a gaggia with a stock double basket then 16-17g should be fine by the way.


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## barrymckenna (Oct 26, 2017)

I have a de longhi ec330 and the basket takes approximately 13g. I was always wondering what kind of output I should aim for and what brew time I should aim for for same?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

barrymckenna said:


> I have a de longhi ec330 and the basket takes approximately 13g. I was always wondering what kind of output I should aim for and what brew time I should aim for for same?


If you want a stronger shot then aim 26g out in as much time as it takes to balance the flavour. 26g from 13g might be tricky to escape sourness, so maybe start at 50g out, then pull shorter & grind finer to keep the flavour balanced.

If your shot takes 15s it's likely too quick, if it takes over a minute it's likely too slow...how long it will be will depend on how fine you grind & how much you get in the cup. 20s might be OK for 13:50g, 50s might be OK for 13:26g. Don't kill the shot by time, kill it by weight, steer taste with grind adjustment.


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## barrymckenna (Oct 26, 2017)

MWJB said:


> If you want a stronger shot then aim 26g out in as much time as it takes to balance the flavour. 26g from 13g might be tricky to escape sourness, so maybe start at 50g out, then pull shorter & grind finer to keep the flavour balanced.
> 
> If your shot takes 15s it's likely too quick, if it takes over a minute it's likely too slow...how long it will be will depend on how fine you grind & how much you get in the cup. 20s might be OK for 13:50g, 50s might be OK for 13:26g. Don't kill the shot by time, kill it by weight, steer taste with grind adjustment.


I'm getting about 40g out at the mo and it takes about 20-25 seconds. 10-15 seconds of that is just the machine pushing the water through. It's only at that point that coffee begins to flow


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> You can put a wide range of coffee in a basket but overfill one or under fill one at it can lead to channeling and pour extractions > poor taste.
> 
> Ive seen people talk of shoving 20g in a standard stock basket , but it will be too much coffee for that basket, and it wont have enough room to expand when the water hits it .
> 
> ...


I get the first point - don't overfill a basket because the coffee can't expand. I've only pulled about 8 shots with an unpressurised basket, but my first undrinkable cup was exactly that. I have the original Gaggia double basket. It seems to work at half to 2/3 full as far as I can see. I'm struggling to understand why VST baskets are rated +- 1g. Maybe a search for ultimate perfection.... I guess the hole sizes and distribution is different though the basic shape is similar - just deeper or shallower. Personally I'd be aiming for somewhere around 14g in. I drink milky decaf coffee, like 120g to 150g milk in a 220g cup. So probably something like 14g to 50g out ratio. Probably not classically correct but roughly what's working so far. Early days yet.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

les24preludes said:


> I get the first point - don't overfill a basket because the coffee can't expand. I've only pulled about 8 shots with an unpressurised basket, but my first undrinkable cup was exactly that. I have the original Gaggia double basket. It seems to work at half to 2/3 full as far as I can see. I'm struggling to understand why VST baskets are rated +- 1g. Maybe a search for ultimate perfection.... I guess the hole sizes and distribution is different though the basic shape is similar - just deeper or shallower. Personally I'd be aiming for somewhere around 14g in. I drink milky decaf coffee, like 120g to 150g milk in a 220g cup. So probably something like 14g to 50g out ratio. Probably not classically correct but roughly what's working so far. Early days yet.


I can't really comment as 2/3 full could be any dose depending on the coarseness of the coffee.

As you go finer or coarser than 2/3 will be differing amounts of coffee in weight , leading to potentially different extractions .

It could be your dosing about 15-16 g which would be where a stock gaggia basket is about in terms of dose.

VST basket more wholes , allowing finer grind, more extraction .

14g > 50g is a pretty classic lungo extraction , if is taste good to you thats all ok .

Honestly if you dont want to weight out but i would really suggest getting an idea of what your dose is to 0.1g

Weighing Its not about perfection it's about repeatability .


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> I can't really comment as 2/3 full could be any dose depending on the coarseness of the coffee.
> 
> As you go finer or coarser than 2/3 will be differing amounts of coffee in weight , leading to potentially different extractions .It could be your dosing about 15-16 g which would be where a stock gaggia basket is about in terms of dose. VST basket more wholes , allowing finer grind, more extraction . 14g > 50g is a pretty classic lungo extraction , if is taste good to you thats all ok . Honestly if you dont want to weight out but i would really suggest getting an idea of what your dose is to 0.1g. Weighing is not about perfection it's about repeatability .


This all sounds right. I have a good digital scales - I'll have to weigh the dose. I'll stick with the original Gaggia basket until I get the technique roughly right in terms of the taste I'm after. If I dose the milk exactly - I microwave it then stick it under the PF to pull a shot - then I can see how much coffee is going into the cup by how close it is to the top. This should get me into the ballpark.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

les24preludes said:


> This all sounds right. I have a good digital scales - I'll have to weigh the dose. I'll stick with the original Gaggia basket until I get the technique roughly right in terms of the taste I'm after. If I dose the milk exactly - I microwave it then stick it under the PF to pull a shot - then I can see how much coffee is going into the cup by how close it is to the top. This should get me into the ballpark.


Im a bit lost now , why are you microwaving the milk?


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Im a bit lost now , why are you microwaving the milk?


Sounds like a county Durham flat white to me... Though it's a bit posh if it's got expresso not instant ?


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

Missy said:


> Sounds like a county Durham flat white to me... Though it's a bit posh if it's got expresso not instant 藍


LOL. I'm not sure if I want frothy milk, but there must be a reason machines use a steam wand.

Back to basket sizes, I just got my best shot yet by updosing 10g in the single basket, possibly because my stock Gaggia is 15 bar and it adds some resistance. I started a thread on this on the Barista forum. I can see that resistance matters.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

les24preludes said:


> LOL. I'm not sure if I want frothy milk, but there must be a reason machines use a steam wand.
> 
> Back to basket sizes, I just got my best shot yet by updosing 10g in the single basket, possibly because my stock Gaggia is 15 bar and it adds some resistance. I started a thread on this on the Barista forum. I can see that resistance matters.


Steamed milj isnt frothy when done right , it increases the sweetness and gives it a great texture.

Micro wave just makes it warm.......


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Steamed milj isnt frothy when done right , it increases the sweetness and gives it a great texture.
> 
> Micro wave just makes it warm.......


I didn't know it increased the sweetness - I must try it. Thanks for the explanation.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

The idea is to aim for 'microfoam' which means that instead of 'froth' (hot milk with big bubbles) you get a beautiful sweet creamy texture. Get that right and you can then pour latte art to show off the smoothness and texture of the milk. The freshness and temperature (below 65°C) is important in creating this texture, as is the technique used in steaming the milk. That in itself can be a challenge at first - never mind free pouring, but once tasted, becomes so worthwhile, if you like milk based espresso drinks that is!

Using old milk or overheating the milk will affect the texturing. On addition, overheating will also make the milk lose its sweetness as well as collapsing the foam. In a steel jug, too hot is when you burn your fingers, and 'just right' is usually the point when it's just uncomfortable to hold the bottom of the jug.


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

les24preludes said:


> I didn't know it increased the sweetness - I must try it. Thanks for the explanation.


A good thread here with a couple of great videos on the first page:

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?42511-Struggling-with-milk


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