# Waste



## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

I hate wasting coffee... but I've just opened a new bag of beans and the few I have made haven't been very nice whilst we try and get the right grind setting. Do you guys expect to bin the first few attempts at grinding unfamiliar beans or do you suffer a few dodgy cups whilst you get dialled in?


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I hate waste too. If the first cup from a new bag of beans is totally awful then it goes down the drain. If it is drinkable but obviously needs adjusting to get it right I will maybe drink half of it, adjust things, try again. I may come back to the beans in a week, and try again, but at the end of the day if I really don't like the taste and I have the feeling I won't ever get it right then I bin them.

Quite often though I only need to tweek the grinder from the first cup to the second and everything is fine from then on.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

pgarrish said:


> I hate wasting coffee... but I've just opened a new bag of beans and the few I have made haven't been very nice whilst we try and get the right grind setting. Do you guys expect to bin the first few attempts at grinding unfamiliar beans or do you suffer a few dodgy cups whilst you get dialled in?


I think a large part of this comes down to experience.

The more beans you try and the more notes you make the easier the dialling in becomes and less waste.

Even if my first cup is well off I now know how much adjustment to make and the next cup is tasty. After that its tweaking and seeking for the God shot.


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

I think the god shot is more of a moon shot with a rubber band just now









This new bean still comes out way too fast and I'm running out of dial on the grinder... I'll keep going but maybe this bean needs the new burrs... we shall see, I have a volunteer to try the next one lined up for later


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

What bean are we talking about?

Is the time taken consistent? Or does it vary wildly (2+ second difference)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

There are some simple things you can do.

First i presume you are weighing in an out ?

Secondly i used to rest my beans the same 7 days for consistency . Also the stuff i bought didn't tend to very hugely in roast level . If you are going between light and dark this may mean more adjustment and more waste. Be prepared to probably need a couple of shots to get to good .

Some beans just needs different grinds ( pacamara and Malabar monsoon for instance always need super fine )

Stick to a dose to start with , whatever has worked and is appropriate to your basket .

Good luck


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

I'm weighing the beans in/out of the grinder 12g to fit my machine (just tried 13 and no change in flow rate)

I'm getting about 24-5 g coffee in 15-16 seconds.

It's chocolate point from black cat coffee, never had it before but it is darker than the signature we had before.

I don't get much crema from that but I do get some and it's tasty, this has no crema, comes out much quicker (2-4 secs faster I'd say and much more easily) and is quite tasteless in comparison. I've had the beans about 2 weeks and they've been sealed in the freezer but out a couple of days now

I'm getting to the finest settings on the grinder which would choke the machine with the signature blend.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

pgarrish said:


> I'm weighing the beans in/out of the grinder 12g to fit my machine
> 
> I'm getting about 24-5 g coffee in 15-16 seconds.
> 
> ...


12g ? what machine and basket do you have? that's a really low dose unless your using a single basket , then its quite a high dose .

Is there a roast date on the beans , darker > coarser grind unless they are not fresh???

It has robusta in it so it should be a crema bomb ???


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

" Not for us the light roasts and accompanying sourness many of our contemporaries seem to favour, Black Cat Coffee offers a bold, flavourful alternative to many in the 'third wave'."


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

The machine is a delonghi 155 with the pressurising gizmo removed. It's a double basket but only 51mm and 12-13g seems to fill it.. (12 worked well with the other beans but happy to up the dose if it'll fit)

There's no roasting date on the bag - I believe they roast to order so should be mid December. Here's the bean. https://blackcatcoffee.co.uk/collections/coffee/products/chocolate-point-espresso

It may simply need more coffee in the basket or finer grinding or both.. I'll keep trying


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

pgarrish said:


> The machine is a delonghi 155 with the pressurising gizmo removed. It's a double basket but only 51mm and 12-13g seems to fill it.. (12 worked well with the other beans but happy to up the dose if it'll fit)
> 
> There's no roasting date on the bag - I believe they roast to order so should be mid December. Here's the bean. https://blackcatcoffee.co.uk/collections/coffee/products/chocolate-point-espresso
> 
> It may simply need more coffee in the basket or finer grinding or both.. I'll keep trying


No date on bag is a bit worrying . Something with Robusta in it and dark should have some crema and shouldn't be on your finest setting .

Looking at the website my spider sense was beginning to tingle but hey .

My best guess would be they aint that fresh ( otherwise where is the roast date )

Is there a best before on the bag ? If so what is it?

How are you storing the beans as a sense check ?


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

Best before is Feb

Beans were in freezer until opened but now re-sealed and on the counter

As you say, maybe they aren't that fresh, shame as the signature blend was yummy... we have one other bag from them in the freezer so we'll see how they go but maybe not go back - we like trying different beans anyway so that's fine


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

pgarrish said:


> Best before is Feb
> 
> Beans were in freezer until opened but now re-sealed and on the counter
> 
> As you say, maybe they aren't that fresh, shame as the signature blend was yummy... we have one other bag from them in the freezer so we'll see how they go but maybe not go back - we like trying different beans anyway so that's fine


Best before is Feb , then it was possibly either roasted August -Sept ( 6 months )

At worst people use 12 months span as a best before , at best 3 months span .

Website used all the right words , small batch and artisan but no roast date and best before dates again would stop me using em.


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Best before is Feb , then it was possibly either roasted August -Sept ( 6 months )
> 
> At worst people use 12 months as a best before , at best 3 months.
> 
> Website used all the right words , small batch and artisan but no roast date and best before dates again would stop me using em.


Fair enough, just checking they say they put a roast date on but definitely not on this bag....

Yep, we will look elsewhere


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

pgarrish said:


> Fair enough, just checking they say they put a roast date on but definitely not on this bag....
> 
> Yep, we will look elsewhere


If you like em up to you .

Rave and Coffe compass may do beans you enjoy .


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

So I got in touch

First thing - roast date was on the bottom of the bag - 7/12. They roast to order

Upped my dose to 14:28 and ground pretty fine and tamped firmly. Still no crema but a bit stronger.

Opened the other bag from them (Brazil sweet) and much better straight away.

Perhaps my machines just don't get on with the chocolate point

But thought I should point out that they do roast to order and they do put the roast date on the bag. Maybe this bean needs longer before I use it???


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

pgarrish said:


> Upped my dose to 14:28 and ground pretty fine and tamped firmly. Still no crema but a bit stronger.


Still 15-16s shots? You're going to struggle to get a decent level of extraction at 1:2 & 16s.

Can you go finer & or pull a bigger shot (1:3?) in ~25s?


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

I've been chatting to them online (on a Sunday afternoon, that's keen!)

I posted pics of my grind and brew and he sent pics of his. My grind is way coarser just now. I'll try the next stops on the grinder but I think my burrs are probably just too worn for these beans (or full stop)

But I would like to put a thumbs up for black cat. They've offered a replacement bag and have been very helpful.


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

Turned the grinder all the way (one click back from touching) and no better - 14 seconds 14:28... so those shiny burrs can't come sooner

My pics:



















His pics



















For many of you this is granny sucking eggs I'm sure but I suspect I'm not the only one learning about this all the time, especially the way the different grinds look and the way it needs changing for different beans


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

What grinder are you using?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

What is the grinder?

If you can't keep the shot over 20s with a 1:2 ratio, make the ratio longer (1:3, or 1:4) & shot time will increase, longer ratios don't always need a much time to extract.


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

Grinder is a Santos 4 so more than capable but the burrs are very worn


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

MWJB said:


> What is the grinder?
> 
> If you can't keep the shot over 20s with a 1:2 ratio, make the ratio longer (1:3, or 1:4) & shot time will increase, longer ratios don't always need a much time to extract.


Will I not end up getting the grotty stuff from the end of the shot if I do that? I thought the ratio was more important than the timing?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

pgarrish said:


> Will I not end up getting the grotty stuff from the end of the shot if I do that? I thought the ratio was more important than the timing?


Ratio is a guide to strength, at a given extraction yield/grind fineness. The shorter the ratio the more shot time you need to keep water in coffee in contact long enough to extract.

It's pretty safe to assume that if your shot is 1:2 & 16s, each 14g of output has only been in contact with the (possibly too coarse coffee) for 8s, (about half the normal time). You are under-extracting, which you may continue to do, but getting a little more out of the dose may improve things. To do this, push more water through the puck, grind finer if you can.

I have pulled shots at 1:6 which are not over-extracted.


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

Ok, thanks. For now I've changed to the other beans which seem more forgiving of the coarser grind but I am looking forward to my new burrs..

I might run longer shots with those beans too as I'm nearer 20 secs even with those


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Looking at the pics - You need to "do something" about your grinder/burrs.

If the top shot is "one notch off touching" there is something amiss... espresso grind is isn't always "powder" but your grind looks more like pea-gravel or aggregate.


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

That bean seems worse than others but agreed... the new burrs were ordered but are out of stock just now


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

This is the brazil bean - I smoothed it off a bit more too

14g:28g in about 35 secs 



















Poor little delonghi was working hard but it looked like a proper espresso to me 

And it was yummy!


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

+1 for it being a grind issue - that's crazy course for espresso imo

New year treat yourself new grinder?


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

New burrs ordered - the grinder is up to the job - with new burrs it should be capable of turkish grind


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Glad you are getting there with the grinder. Coffee, and particularly espresso is an art form.

It is always disappointing to have to dump shots when changing between beans. Personally I usually make the first shot of a new bag a cappuccino as it is much more forgiving with some nicely steamed whole milk on it. Obviously if it is way off then I will still dump it but a few seconds out is a drinkable capp and no waste! You can go on to make adjustments from there.

We are having a slight refresh on branding and labelling starting this week and having taken in to account our customers feedback the roasted on date will now be right on the front of the bag rather than stamped on the bottom.

Keep brewing the good brew!

David.


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## viveur (Oct 22, 2017)

On OP's original question: I wonder what "recipe" is being used, i.e. when are shots being cut (when not matching recipe, i.e. running too fast/slow)?

I've found I still get drinkable shots, just with the wrong ratio (and not quite as tasty as ideal, but drinkable), if I stop my shots by time. I weigh the shot too, but I use the grind to adjust the weight, for a constant time. (Different coffees need slightly different times etc.) E.g. if I hit my preferred 36g at 25s, and I usually stop at 30-31s, I just let the machine keep going until I hit 30s, check the weight, drink, and adjust finer for the next shot.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

That is interesting. As a preference I would tend to stop at volume or weight rather than time personally. I generally find a few seconds either way for the correct volume produces drinkable shots but just maybe not at the coffees full potential.

Taste is of course subjective and as much fuss as we as roasters put in to getting recipes correct doesn't always mean that is what you as an individual will prefer. You are of course preparing with different equipment too. I guess it is all about balance and I generally tend to think, if it tastes right, it is right. I would much rather enjoy the coffee than stress over a few grams or seconds this way or that and just see how changing a variable alters things then next time I brew.


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