# Distribution or tamping or both ?



## Edlockwood (Nov 20, 2014)

Ive recently upgraded all of my coffee kit but am struggling a bit with uneven extractions on the naked PF.

The coffee tastes ok but I can see that it is mainly coming out of the sides and that there is a dead spot in the middle which is preventing it from producing a single stream.

Im assuming that I'm not distributing the grounds adequately before tamping but I'm not sure how much I can do on that score.

My routine is to grind 18g into the niche pot, transfer it into the PF and then tap the side with my palm to create an even bed. Once that is achieved, I use a distribution tool set to the minimum and give it a few spins and then tamp.

Any thoughts on what I should try next ?

Am I tamping too hard ?

Ed


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Those tools don't really distribute, but give a nice level surface to tamp on. Try three cocktail sticks or paperclips shoved into a cork and give the basket a good stir, That'll distribute the grounds, then use the spinny tool to flatten and then tamp.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Have you tried without the distribution tool? Is your tamper a snug fit for the basket? I use a 58.55mm in a VST.

I can struggle with light roasts and blends having only just started trying them. I've found they expand a lot more than darker roasts and I'm currently dosing 19g into a 22g VST. There are dead spots but it's coming through much more evenly and in a single central stream and a steady flow rate compared to the previous attempts with 17g and 18g in an 18g VST which at their worst would come through in multiple streams and rapidly increase in flow rate. Taste has much improved along with body and mouth feel.

So I'd tell you to underdose by 2-3g, and if you aren't using a tamper that's a snug fit for the basket then get one that is.

You are stirring the grinds in the catch cup before transferring to the PF aren't you?

You could be tamping too hard/multiple times? Difficult to say since I don't know how hard you're tamping...push down until you go over 5kg on a set of scales and aim to repeat it, if unsure then go a little harder but you shouldn't be straining and consistency isn't really important so long as it's over 5kg.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Unlikely tamping too hard is the reason.

Out of interest what size tamper are you using and what basket, make and size?


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Rob1 said:


> Have you tried without the distribution tool? Is your tamper a snug fit for the basket? I use a 58.55mm in a VST.
> I can struggle with light roasts and blends having only just started trying them. I've found they expand a lot more than darker roasts and I'm currently dosing 19g into a 22g VST. There are dead spots but it's coming through much more evenly and in a single central stream and a steady flow rate compared to the previous attempts with 17g and 18g in an 18g VST which at their worst would come through in multiple streams and rapidly increase in flow rate. Taste has much improved along with body and mouth feel.
> So I'd tell you to underdose by 2-3g, and if you aren't using a tamper that's a snug fit for the basket then get one that is.
> You are stirring the grinds in the catch cup before transferring to the PF aren't you?
> You could be tamping too hard/multiple times? Difficult to say since I don't know how hard you're tamping...push down until you go over 5kg on a set of scales and aim to repeat it, if unsure then go a little harder but you shouldn't be straining and consistency isn't really important so long as it's over 5kg.


Doesn't VST suggest staying within 1g of the capacity of the basket?

Underdosing might create more issues as you need to grind even finer.


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

Rhys said:


> Those tools don't really distribute, but give a nice level surface to tamp on. Try three cocktail sticks or paperclips shoved into a cork and give the basket a good stir, That'll distribute the grounds, then use the spinny tool to flatten and then tamp.


 This would be the first thing I suggest you add to your routine @Edlockwood

You could also even use a single chopstick or anything else you wish to give the grinds a nice even stir.


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## Edlockwood (Nov 20, 2014)

Thanks everyone.

Ive got an 18g VST so that is worth playing around with dosewise. Im currently dosing 18g

The tamper is a Motta 58.4 so that could also be an issue. It doesn't fit terribly well

I don't stir the grinds in the cup, I just give it a good rap on the counter to break any clumps that might be there. Sounds like I should be doing that from your post Rob ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I currently use a 58mm tamper and although not ideal you can still get decent naked extractions with it.

Your 58.4 should be fine. Don't pull the tamper out too quickly after tamping.

As always a clip of prep might help


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## Junglebert (Jan 7, 2019)

I've made significant headway on similar issues lately, reducing the pressure of the boiler was the most significant step, but not sure if you can do that. The other thing that seems to work is, now, I grind into a small Tupperware, stick a lid on and give it a shake, that seems to ensure it's all pretty even when I decant it into the basket (VST, that's made a difference too) One thing which has also improved distribution is the purchase of a rubber tamping mat, now when the basket is in the portafilter, and I tap it in the mat, it settles well to a reasonably flat surface ready for tamping.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

PPapa said:


> Doesn't VST suggest staying within 1g of the capacity of the basket?
> 
> Underdosing might create more issues as you need to grind even finer.


 They do, not that it makes a difference what they recommend since they don't know what coffee you're putting in and how much it's expanding when the water hits it. The idea being to stop the puck expanding into the shower screen and being disturbed as it rises up around it letting water around the sides (at least that's what seemed to be happening to me). You won't need to grind significantly finer if you do at all since channelling will make the shot run faster.

@Edlockwood - yes stirring prior to putting in the portafilter is recommended. The WDT (stirring in the portafilter) should help get a good extraction too as others above have recommended you do. You could also be doing other things to disturb the puck like bashing the portafilter into the group or on the counter after tamping so a video of your prep might be helpful.


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## Edlockwood (Nov 20, 2014)

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I kept the same dose but stirred the grinds with a large paper clip in the pot and then again in the PF. I tapped all sides until it was level and then tamped. No "distribution" spin.

The result was a uniform extraction and a single stream after a few seconds of pouring. Easy game really


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Rob1 said:


> You won't need to grind significantly finer if you do at all since channelling will make the shot run faster.


 Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

You will need to grind finer to achieve the same yield ratio with same extraction time if you underdose the basket. At least that's my experience with both IMS and VST baskets on EK43s.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

PPapa said:


> Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
> 
> You will need to grind finer to achieve the same yield ratio with same extraction time if you underdose the basket. At least that's my experience with both IMS and VST baskets on EK43s.


 If you underdose to stop channelling you'll find times to achieve the same target yield ratio are much the same with a shot that doesn't channel with a lower dose compared one that does channel with a higher dose.

i.e:

18g in 18g VST: Multiple streams, dead spots, spritzing. Rapidly increasing flow rate. 36g in 30ish seconds.

15g in 18g VST: One stream, no/massively reduced dead spots, no spritzing. Steadily and slowly increasing flow rate. 30g in 30ish seconds.

If you get the same yield a few seconds quicker without channelling it's a step forward (assuming it tastes better). You shouldn't have to adjust the grind too much to hit the same time if you have to change it at all assuming you drop the dose to solve a huge channelling problem....but why would you even be aiming for a time when the previous shots have been bad? You just dial in when you find the dose that fits in the basket without pressing into the shower screen. Turns out the OP's problem was caused by not stirring in the cup and/or not distributing properly in the portafilter anyway.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Ah, it makes sense now@Rob1 - I misread your post. Cheers.


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## Nick1881 (Dec 18, 2018)

I now tap and stir in the portafilter, then use a distribution tool, then tamp.

I have not long got a machine with bottomless and so far I haven't had any spurt out sideways, every drop of coffee has gone straight down into the cup, then it joins together like I have seen in videos.

Does it sound like I'm doing well? I will have to try to capture a video at some point.


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