# Sage dtp not working - my coffee all frothy?



## Paul-likes-coffee (Feb 3, 2018)

Hello all I hope someone can help me. I've had my sage dtp for over a year now but I'm finding my coffee is coming out frothy (more like the foamed milk) rather than a nice smooth stream of brown liquid from both spouts of the filter head...

I've descaled the machine

I've cleaned the metal gauze where the water comes out

I've cleaned the porta filter coffee holder bit

I've tried it with or without the filter in the cold water bucket

I'm using the same ground coffee I've always used

I always cut it off using the razor

Any ideas


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Could you add a picture of the problem? Also which basket are you using?


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

Could you describe your coffee-making process as a number of steps. Also, are you using pre-ground coffee or grinding your own beans? Do you know how fresh the coffee is - ideally you should know its roasting date, but is it from the supermarket and you don't know the roasting date? If you're using pre-ground coffee, you should use the pressurised portafilter. Do you weigh your coffee into the portafilter, and weigh your espresso shot which comes out? Are you noting the time your espresso shot takes? Are you firmly tamping the coffee in the portafilter?

All these things could influence the quality of the coffee coming out of your machine. Hope that helps. If you can come back with more information on your coffee making process, I'm sure you'll get lots of help.


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## Paul-likes-coffee (Feb 3, 2018)




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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

I don't think the picture has worked.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What coffee are you using > how much is in the basket ?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Paul-likes-coffee said:


> Hello all I hope someone can help me. I've had my sage dtp for over a year now but I'm finding my coffee is coming out frothy (more like the foamed milk) rather than a nice smooth stream of brown liquid from both spouts of the filter head...
> 
> 1) I've descaled the machine
> 
> ...


On 1) I'd be inclined to ask how often and suggest you look at the hardness data your water supplier states. Just go to their site and enter post code etc.

There could be all sorts of red herrings in replies on a problem like this - as you say all is the same as it has always been.

I assume you are using the dual wall pressurised basket for you pre ground. I used a lot of preground up when I bought my machine and didn't have any problems at all what ever brand it was or due to how long it had been around. Keeping tamping consistent still matter with this and it needs to be firm. The general idea is to fully compress the grounds.

There is no number 7) and should be. Back flushing the machine using the rubber disk the machines come with and a cleaning tablet as described in the manual. My BE has a light that comes on when that should be done but I've never counted the number of shots that turn it on. Maybe more complicated than that anyway. Might be circa 100 shots. I've no idea really.

I always wash the filter baskets and portafilter each time it's used and wonder if this area might be your problem. Partly blocked filter basket, What you could do is use the pressurised basket and back flush or give it a good soak in puly cafe cleaner. When the machine is back flushed with the rubber disk a certain amount of cleaner is forced through the filter basket.

You could also try using the unpressurised filter basket to see if the problem goes away. Unlikely to produce a decent drink but flow should be ok but probably fast. Clearing a dirty dual wall filter basket might be very tricky. If that's the problem you may need a new one.

Yes - people can get away with using the razor tool but some seem to find it hard to believe. When I shift to weight I sometimes find lt leaves the level a bit lower than it could be but otherwise ok. The tamper that comes with the machine also gives an indication of fill height once some one is used to using it.

John

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## Paul-likes-coffee (Feb 3, 2018)

For some reason pic comes up as a coffee bean so follow link for pic of the coffee after use.



http://imgur.com/q5MOZw1


Process is as follows...(sorry no fancy wording from me)

Fill machine with water from tap.

Brew kettle to warm cup

Turn on machine to warm

Fill porter filter with lavazza rose ground coffee dust

Push/tamp with tool

Cut off so at right height

Install in machine

Put small cup under machine

Turn on

Coffee sometimes starts off coming out of one spout only then comes out of two then quickly turns to light brown frothy streams

Stop when at volume required

Froth milk

Run steam wand again to clear

Rub steam wand with a cloth like some naughty lady of the night

Mix coffee and milk

Clean out milk jug

Clean out cup

Undo porter filter and empty coffee and rinse

Run water through machine for few seconds to clear metal grille

Turn off machine

Thanks for the replies, the water quality here is crap and massively scales up the kettle but I've done several deacaling rounds and I get good flow and temperature, almost too much flow, it's seems to work fine when starting off the the pump kicks in full guns and it goes frothy. But i think this has been a gradual change to the point where I now noticing it.

I admit I wasn't the best at cleaning when I first started but I have cleaned all the holes on the dual wall filter with a very fine wire and it seems clear.

It's odd that there is only 1 water exit point from the machine under the metal filter. I am cleaning this much more regularly after I read online that you could remove and clean it.

The sage manual is poor for cleaning advice.

found it was blocked. Also the black bit is starting to go crispy


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Joey uses his kettle as a need to descale indicator. If he sees any in that he knows that there will be some in the machine. Might help. Descaling after it's causing a problem is very likely to be too late. Some people might be better off using bottled water but some of those are softer than others. There are posts around on that subject including a recent one where it cropped up.

Trying a shot with an unpressurised basket would show if there is a basket problem. If no froth then it's probably the basket otherwise it's likely to be something screwed up in the machine. The dual wall filters are as they are named - 2 "walls" that are pretty close to each other. One on the inside has the perforations you can see, the other just a single hole. I'd expect any grounds between them to be flushed out through the single small hole but maybe not hence trying with a single wall filter basket. The side with the single hole controls the brew pressure so how the coffee is ground has less effect.

If it's the machine much depends on how brave you are and if it's still under warrantee. It does sound like it is a machine fault but an odd one. Could be air getting into the water on it's way to the pump. Another long shot is the water itself. I phoned a water supplier and complained once because really strange looking water was coming out of the tap. It cleared slowly and was down to some one somewhere opening a main pipe and letting a lot of air in. That was then compressed into the water when the pipe was reconnected. If you had that problem what was coming out of the tap would be pretty obvious.

I assume the single hole you mention is the one under the shower screen. All machines use something like that but usually followed by a thick metal plate with a number of holes in it and then the shower screen. Sage don't use the thick plate. Good and bad really. If it was there it would need heating up somehow otherwise the water would be cooled too much when it flows through it. What Sage do does work but the shower screen needs to be pretty clean inside otherwise most of the water comes out in a single stream opposite the single hole you mention. I've found that periodic use of a grouphead cleaning brush helps keep it in order but it still needs removing from time to time. You'll find those if you search, the actual brush is angled at the end. Too low a fill in the basket can mess it up pretty quickly though - on machines with a 3 way valve anyway.

The plastic bit in the portafilter is to help prevent it from taking a lot of heat out of the coffee flow. It works too but I flush through an empty pressurised basket before pulling a shot to get the whole end of the portafilter really hot. I've found that helps produce several shots on the trot that all taste the same.








Sage aren't that bad manual wise as far as cleaning goes. They do mention it and descaling some machines can be a bit of a nightmare for some - it may need spanners is the usual way of putting it. None of Sage's machines have that problem.

If you fancy a dismantle and look @joey24dirt has been into his machine a number of times so can point the way. Also maybe have an idea just how air could get in the water flow. I'd have thought leaks would be more of a problem after the pump but haven't heard of any actually happening. Spares are available for these machines so repair is possible.

John

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## Paul-likes-coffee (Feb 3, 2018)

Ironically very busy week so no time for making coffee but tonight I made a cup using the 2 shot dual wall filter.

It started off with nice dark brown flows the pump is whiring but then it changes tone, almost like it's clicked to another setting and that's when the two flows start to become frothy. I think the 2 shot filter was better but still frothy


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

There's not descaler still in the works somewhere? It really does look foamy. How does it taste?

Also how old is the preground coffee? Wondering if it's a long opened bag that's making it blonde and foam


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I don't think that ground coffee age would cause that. Some one here uses it from time to time and it's been open for around 6 months now.

Descaler - never really checked this and don't know how a DTP is back flushed. I think Sage provide a rubber disk with a small hole in it for back flushing on all of their machines. I have the impression that tablets are needed to use it as they initially block the hole in the disk. If some one used powder it might get sucked back into the machine. If that sort of thing is going on you should see a change if you fill the tank and run the lot through the grouphead.







Hope there's no soap in the tank, unlikely but washing up liquid is extremely sticky and oddly can be hard to swill off.

The dual basket does the same thing so baskets causing it are unlikely really. When you start to pull a shot the pump runs at a low speed for about 10secs then goes to full speed. That's normal. It still sounds like air is getting in somewhere to me. Logic says that must be before the pump.There are only a couple of connections. One where the tank connects and others in the machine from that to the pump. Maybe the filter in the tank is blocked or something else in that area.

John

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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Have you removed the shower screen and cleaned it?

I would run a full tank of clean water through the brew head and then do another full tank through the steam arm. That should give it a good flush out and then clean everything again and go from there.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Paul-likes-coffee said:


> Ironically very busy week so no time for making coffee but tonight I made a cup using the 2 shot dual wall filter.
> 
> It started off with nice dark brown flows the pump is whiring but then it changes tone, almost like it's clicked to another setting and that's when the two flows start to become frothy. I think the 2 shot filter was better but still frothy


You are suing a pressurised filter ? Daul Wall ?

Are you grinding your own coffee , how much coffee is in the basket


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## Paul-likes-coffee (Feb 3, 2018)

So to answer the above points as some have already been stated....

Coffee tastes good... I think....this seems to have been getting worse over time. Certainly drinkable I just don't pour the frothy head in to the drinking cup. Machine is over year old now.

Coffee is pre ground as previously mentioned. Lavazza rose. New packet opened last week. Kept in clip lock box in fridge. Never used anything else

Can't over fill or over tamp the coffee in my opinion as the dual wall filter has a ridge that the tamper thing sits on. I use a small force to tamp it down I'm not heaving on it.

It's reassuring to hear about the pump speed although I would say it runs at low speed for much less maybe 5 seconds before it kicks to full speed.

I've tried running the machine without the water filter in the tank and it makes no difference

I've run saucepans of water through the machine and I've deacaled recently and run the fluid several times through the machine.

I'm now regularly cleaning the filter head I have an Allen key in the drawer ready!

Re the ingress of air - Machine doesn't seem to be leaking which i would associate with air ingress, although I will check this in more detail to confirm. Could it be developing steam in the pump or heater housing (I'm not clued up on exactly how it works) this is the only other way I can see air being in the system


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I wonder . . . Can you post a video of a shot?

The foam *looks* like some sort of cleaning solution mix. As you said it tastes ok though, it can't be.

Out of interest have you tried opening a new bag of coffee and trying that? Sorry if you've said . . .


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

If air is getting in before the pump it needn't leak water. The pump is pulling more through when it's running flat out = more suction pressure before the pump - that's why I wondered if the filter is blocked or something around there. As I said though a long shot really.

Curiosity and some comments make me wonder how old the machine is ?

You have give us another clue though but I'd be surprised if it causes the problem. Spoon your grinds in, tamp* firmly* and then use the razor tool. The idea with the razor tool is to just remove a little. When I use it I always tamp again afterwards. The idea of tamping is to fully compress the grounds. Providing you use a scoop/spoon to put the coffee in the basket you will soon get used to how much to add. I'd suggest you notice how far the tamper goes in when it's used after the razor tool has been used.







That aspect may allow you to change the drink if what comes out firmly tamped doesn't suite you but the method would be sacrilegious around here.

If after you have tamped the level is too low add some more, spread it out a bit and tamp again. Use the razor tool again if needed. Ideally you want to get the right amount in initially but it will do to avoid wasting coffee.

John

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## Catie (12 mo ago)

I have exactly the same problem my coffee is frothy and on the bitter side I can only occasionally make a good coffee with crema 
i grind from fresh beans use the dual wall 2 cup as my son in law assures me this makes the best coffee and having tried both cups I agree with him.

I have tried grinding from course to fine of the beans, course occasionally making a decent coffee.

I tamp down firmly, use the razor and follow all instructions to no avail? 
our water is soft.

any ideas?

Ann


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