# Too deep in the rabbit hole now....



## OnurIbrahim (Aug 22, 2021)

My Gaggia Machina Grinder just packed up after 10 years. 
I stripped it gave it a good clean, re-alligned the burrs got one cup of amazing Espresso then it said goodbye.

Now I need to buy a new grinder (Sub £700) and have gone down a deep rabbit hole.

Can anyone convince me that the Eureka Mignon XL is not the best grinder in my price range?

I drink Espresso and Long Black, make the occasional cappuccino for guests.
Beans are always single origin either dark or medium roasted and I like low acidity, usually buy from Coffee Direct.

This is the kind of flavour profile I like:









Looked at the Niche Zero (now £500 new), DF64, Specialita, Rocky, Commercial Eurekas been all around the sub £1k segment and now I have gone nose blind.

What would you all recommend?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Go for the niche, it's great for your chosen coffee type, easy to clean-oily bean residue, and easy to use.

The migons are finiky to adjust,


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## Alfieboy (Dec 26, 2018)

Niche all day long


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## jackspro (2 mo ago)

For what you're after, I'd look at the Niche. You'd probably get on well with the Eureka too.


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## OnurIbrahim (Aug 22, 2021)

My logic may be flawed, but I see plenty of Niche Zeros for sale.
They usually sell 2nd hand for around £100-£75 below retail, and there are usually around 2-3 for sale each month.

Try as I might, I have never seen a 2nd hand Eureka Mignon XL for sale.
They must be out there, but I have not seen them come up.

The XL has a different workflow (timers or press to grind or switch), and I can drop my weekly 250g bag into the hopper, set the timer and just make coffee without weighing beans into the hopper first.

With the Zero, I can see that cleaning is easier and I like the adjustment mechanism as it seems more intuitive, but it also looks like a toy.

In terms of flavour, my old grinder used flat burrs, and I haven't had a coffee from a conical burr set before so I cant really compare. 

Is it as simple as "Clarity" (flavour) over "Body" (feel)?

If so wouldn't a slight change in grind size be able to replicate either?

...this rabbit hole just gets deeper


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## funkmuncha (23 d ago)

I've also noticed, and wondered why, so many Niches come up for sale second hand. It doesn't all add up to me as it gets lots of recommendations on forums, it seems quite difficult to get one new yet some people seem to be moving on from them quite quickly. The look of the grinder puts me off it.

I'm very new to making espresso at home and have a sage SGP, I'll keep this for a while yet as there are so many other variables to adjust and explore for me right now, but when I do upgrade it will likely be to something in your price range.

I like the look of the Mignon XL and the pedigree behind it, but for now I'm put off by the fact that only eureka burrs will fit in it and I like the idea of being able to swap to a different burr down the line.


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## jackspro (2 mo ago)

OnurIbrahim said:


> The XL has a different workflow (timers or press to grind or switch), and I can drop my weekly 250g bag into the hopper, set the timer and just make coffee without weighing beans into the hopper first.


If that work flow appeals, I'd definitely check out the Mahlkonig X54. Hopper on board and grinds directly to portafilter. I have one and I'll post a proper run down and thoughts in due course, but IME, it responds in single dose well with little retention. Of course, if popping the whole bag in and working through it as and when is your thing, it can do that too.



OnurIbrahim said:


> In terms of flavour, my old grinder used flat burrs, and I haven't had a coffee from a conical burr set before so I cant really compare.
> 
> Is it as simple as "Clarity" (flavour) over "Body" (feel)?


Yes, more or less. Flat's will give you more clarity and the conical's more body. Briefly, while there are many aspects, it's to do with how they grind the beans, with the conicals typically producing more fines over flats. The conical may seem a little more muddled or not as clear as the flats, but the conicals do have more body which some favour!



OnurIbrahim said:


> If so wouldn't a slight change in grind size be able to replicate either?
> 
> ...this rabbit hole just gets deeper


It's a good question. In short, no, because these distribution of fines are inherent of a said grinder, and so by adjusting it you're moving everything relative to that grind up or down essentially. In slightly longer way and asking more 'wouldn't a slight change to recipe be able to replicate' - there are ways to manipulate your recipe to give an espresso more body, or to make things clearer/separation, but things often have a trade off at this level, it's a bit of matrix.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I'd argue there are alot more niche sold than the mignon, esp the xl. 

They were also bought up in droves through lock down with scalpers buying them and near doubling the price.

I've had 3 eureka grinders, there all designed to be used with a full hopper to get the benefit of consistent grind. 

Fwiw you can get just as much body out of a flat Vs a concial, I have both and it's not as night and day as the internet would lead you to believe. 

Pick which one you visually like, best work flow for you and buy that


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## OnurIbrahim (Aug 22, 2021)

That is very helpful feedback, guys. Thank you.

I have decided to cancel my order for the Niche and go with the XL.

The reasoning is that the Niche seems easier for most people who like simplicity.

However, I am pretty handy and like to mod things.

The XL has the option to swap our Burrs (with modification) in future, and I am also keen to try and work out a way to make the motor RPM adjustable. 

Retention seems comparable in both, and I also think the XL has a better look.
I would do a few mods to the XL straight away to help keep the internals clean, and I like that it has a hopper.

I also prefer the workflow of the XL as, to me, it feels more premium and has fewer steps.


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## jackspro (2 mo ago)

Awesome! Keep us posted with your thoughts on it


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I'd say Niche too. I also drink lot of unburnt 2nd crack monsooned, That is about as oily as beans come. They stick to the sides of the can, They akso need finer grinding compared with others, 2 riders though.

Say these beans are used for the first time on Niche. Initially the setting will need nudging from time to time. More often than usual. Then it settles. Then you put another bean through. Fine but when you go back to monsooned it will need to settle again. TBH I don't find it much of a problem. The settings are reproducible which helps. Fresh beans and the previous setting used will be close. A number of grinders can have problems with this bean, Rather serious ones,

The 2nd one concerns from new. The burrs take a while to run in. LOL I had mine from the batch days so a number on here received theirs. Great coffee said all. I'd say great coffee but wrong. Much fiercer than it should be. That fades with use. Static drops off as well not that this is really a problem even from new. True clumps are. Something it's never produced with any beans I have run through it. Running in new burrs matters on all grinders. I find flat may clump until a couple of kg is run through,  I usually use cheap amazon 1kg bean packs and don't drink it. Niche, I just used it.

Can't say I am 100% for the grinds can. I keep an eye on the pours and compared with a nice central heap straight out of a grinder I think it interferes. I've recently switched to a nice central heap from it manually. I've always tapped grinds down. used a 2 slope leveller and then a 15kg tamper. With the cup though and fixed 30sec shots I get lots that come out to within a gram or two. Odd ones that don't. I don't stir grinds etc as find it increases the variability.

DF64 on beans like this - I'd say no. I found removing one of the rubber flaps helps but still no with beans like this,

So you Niche is run in and you fancy trying a light roast. Feel free. I doubt if anyone would have much of a problem unless they are stuck in ratio 1 to 2 la la land. Some times that is right but it's by no means certain.

With Niche other than the first shot were a couple of beans may need adding what goes in comes out, Use a grind timer and change the grind and what comes out changes which wont be that stable anyway. Then there is the with and without hopper aspect.Then comes BIG flats etc - same issues. The Niche is easy to adjust, So which rabbit hole will people choose to go down? The only sure way of finding out is to go there and find out,

 Mignon - I'm inclined to make the sign of the cross. This goes back to when I started and was using a Sage BE. Lovely fluffy grinds and some one posted a shot of what came out of a Mignon - no thanks. The Sage grinder needs a bit of running in too -  Probably done while I used up a few kg generating drinkable junk for a while when I bought it.


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## jackspro (2 mo ago)

@ajohn I've noticed on a few posts about the Niche, you've described the Niche as _'fierce' _or _'much fiercer than it should be' - _what do you mean by that exactly?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

jackspro said:


> @ajohn I've noticed on a few posts about the Niche, you've described the Niche as _'fierce' _or _'much fiercer than it should be' - _what do you mean by that exactly?


It's an initial effect until the burrs run in properly, The grinds distribution changes with use. Some put the taste down to fines - grinds that are too fine so extract too much., I wouldn't describe it as an over extracted taste though. Bitter is the wrong word. It's just a strong taste that masks any others that should be around. Or maybe. Only word I can think of as a smooth drink turns into something else. Flat is little different really and some cheaper grinders may never run in. It's a good idea to shim flat up as well so that the burrs are parallel, 

Maybe the effect is more noticeable on Niche. On new flats I have always put a few kg through first before using them for drinks mostly to reduce clumping but Niche doesn't do that. Start above espresso levels and reduce slowly and down to espresso levels to see what effect it has now and again. Kgs can't be put through all in one grind as all have on to off time limitations to prevent the motor from overheating.


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## OnurIbrahim (Aug 22, 2021)

@ajohn So you mean to say that "running in" a grinder requires a slightly coarser grind watching for clumping to reduce, then reducing grind size finer as fewer clumps are noticed?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

OnurIbrahim said:


> @ajohn So you mean to say that "running in" a grinder requires a slightly coarser grind watching for clumping to reduce, then reducing grind size finer as fewer clumps are noticed?


Yes.


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## jackspro (2 mo ago)

Slight clumping maybe initially, but sooner or later (and after a few coffees ) it'll work out. Never been that keen the idea of wasting kg's for this - rather drink 'em!


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## OnurIbrahim (Aug 22, 2021)

My Eureka XL is due to arrive tomorrow.... I am already eyeing up modifications on Etsy.

I think the big issues with it have all been solved now. The really exciting part is testing different burr sets to get a different effect. My gut tells me that we are going to see alot of reviewers start to talk more about burr sets this year.

I also just found out about another really interesting grinder here:. 










A68 Electric Coffee Grinder (Pre-order)


FEMOBOOK A68 Electric Coffee Grinder is available for pre-order now. - High-precision burr set with a wide and uniform scale adjustment range - Straight-dosing when grinding - Disassembly without calibration for cleaning efficiency - The bean chute is equipped with a safety switch to avoid...




femobook.myshopify.com





Is that not a beautiful thing?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Yeah they may but burr sets are not cheap.


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## Shultz (26 d ago)

OnurIbrahim said:


> I also just found out about another really interesting grinder here:.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats the one designed and built in conjunction with Lance Hedrick:






Shelton.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I'm not sure I like all these new DC grinders the sound like cheap battery drills 😂 and they have massive power bricks you can't hide


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

cuprajake said:


> Yeah they may but burr sets are not cheap.


 Somehow I suspect you just like me are not surprised by that, The thread title made me think of Lewis Carroll. Espresso is a bit wonderland as well.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

No, but I think we also need to take alot of this with salt 

My SSP cost $350 us and import 

So not cheap, are they wow, no, there good but it's not like drinking another coffee they just push that little more, little more sweetness, little more brightness 

You will get influencers saying otherwise,,,


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

cuprajake said:


> You will get influencers saying otherwise,,,


Niche before they started their own sales outlet
£11,386,829 GBP by 21,596 backers
Rather a lot of grinders most well under the current price.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I don't get what you're saying


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

cuprajake said:


> I don't get what you're saying


Just that it's hardly surprising some are for sale and also a lot are in use.


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## OnurIbrahim (Aug 22, 2021)

@cuprajake I find that the bricks can often be replaced with smaller ones and they can be hidden easily by tucking it behind a toaster / coffee jar / sugar or in a bar setting just drop it behind the back wall.


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## OnurIbrahim (Aug 22, 2021)

Looks right at home. So much different to my old grinder. I am still dialling in the right grind size. Never had the ability to go this fine before.

When I grind Turkish it has lots of clumps as @ajohn predicted. It's pretty astonishing that beans can taste completely different with a better grind!


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