# Extracting a good espresso on a gaggia classic



## colm1989 (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm not having much luck pulling a really tasty espresso with my gaggia classic (unpressurised basket and brass shower plate holder) and was hoping the more experienced amongst you would be able to help.

I'm using volcano coffeeworks beans that were roasted on 11/11/14, grinding with a rhinowares hand grinder. I'm aware that using a hand grinder isn't ideal, but I'm hoping to make do with it til after Christmas when I can afford a more upmarket grinder than going for an MC2 now and wanting to upgrade in a few weeks. The hand grinder appears to be able to grind fine enough to choke the machine, so I'm somewhat confident I should be able to grind ok for espresso, correct me if I'm way off...

Right, so I've been keeping the dose at 14g, changing tamp and grind. I leave the machine to work up about 25-30 minutes, with the portafilter in to warm up, dry the basket before adding coffee, run water through until the boiler light goes off, and then extracting as soon as it goes back on. Extracted into warm cups, getting plenty of crema, but it's very light in colour, and the coffee tastes quite sour (I think). I've only just taken deliver of a scales small enough to weigh the amount of extracted coffee.

I've tried extracting it at a higher temperature by switching on the steam wand switch, and switching it off before extracting, but that results in a crema that almost disappears by the time I've whacked the puck out.

This evening I tried a higher dose of 18g at the higher temperature, and it looked ok, but again the crema disappeared (and admittedly I didn't taste it as was, I poured some steamed milk over it as I was craving a flat white).

In most cases, apart from the higher dose, it generally extracts quite quickly....I've not done the OPV adjustment yet. Always use volvic water.

So, having been a bit all over the place with my experimentation, where is the best place to start to get me closer to a perfect shot? Tamp? Temperature? Dose?


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## mcharrogate (Aug 20, 2012)

Speaking as a fellow classic owner (albeit by no means an expert and no doubt soon to be corrected!) I would personally stick with an 18g dose assuming you're using a standard double (or vst/ims equivalent) and aim for around 28 sec extraction to get around 30g output I.e. brew ratio of around 1.6 which I believe is a generally accepted good target for espresso (whereas ristretto might be more like 1.0 to 1.2) - btw there's a raft of more detailed info here and elsewhere online re brew ratios which is really useful and written by people far more qualified than me!

If coming through significantly quicker than the above suggest tightening the grind but keep beans/dose/tamp consistent.

However having said all that you definitely need to do the OPV mod - I found it made a huge difference, factory settings are miles off optimal 9 bar pressure.

Apologies for ramble but hope at least partially helpful!!


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

I'd agree with the above - OPV mod almost essential, and a 17.5g - 18.0g dose... I can get a beautiful shot from my Classic more often than not (though I admit that I have a slightly better grinder than your hand grinder - which can make a huge amount of difference!)


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## Bigpikle (Oct 14, 2014)

OPV mod helps but it shouldnt be the difference between a good and a bad shot IME. I found it gave the shot a thicker creamier mouthfeel but I was getting rich lasting crema and lovely shots at the factory 14 bar pressure.

I'd say its all about the grind. Sounds like you're weighing the coffee in but I dont see anywhere that you're weighing the coffee out? I found THE best way was to get everything written down and measured so you have a repeatable process, then look at changing only 1 thing at a time. Start with timing how long its taking to get your resulting shot and weighing the output.

I'd suggest 14g is much too little for the double basket. try 17-18g first of all and then see how much is extracted in the standard 25-27 sec shot. Keep everything the same and try different grinds and see what happens in the same 25-27 sec and taste the results. See if you can get the standard 1:1.5 ratio nailed down first and see what happens to the taste then? Then try a different grind and see if you can create a 1:1 and then 1:2 and 1:3 brew ratios and taste the results.

I suspect you will find you dont quite have enough adjustment on the Rhino to get exactly what you need to get the taste you're looking for - its not about just being fine enough, its about enough fine adjustment to mean you can make tiny changes as needed. Most hand grinders, like my Porlex, just have much too big jumps between settings so I go from choking the machine to thin and watery with no middle ground. Stepless grinders or those with much much finer steps will eliminate that challenge.

I'm also thinking the beans might be a little old now and that might be contributing to the crema not lasting - I'm far from an expert on beans but am sure I've seen that referenced here several times before.

The good news is that when you get your tightly nailed down process sorted out so you can repeat it, you'll be pulling amazing espressos time after time pretty much in your sleep! Just get the good grinder


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## colm1989 (Nov 17, 2014)

Just to drag this up again, because I'm still not pulling shots I'm happy with.

I've been using Rwandan Gisuma Bourbon beans from Rave, roasted on 15th of December but only opened beginning of this week.

18g into portafilter, 36g out over 27-28 seconds, using fresh volvic.

Technique is as before, albeit with the addition of a Sage smart grinder that has been dialed in to give a 1:2 brew ratio over 27 seconds with the beans I'm using.

Admittedly, I haven't tried the coffee using french press or aeropress etc. so it may well be that I don't like the coffee, but it doesn't taste much different than the beans I'd used previously....sour and slightly acidic.


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## colm1989 (Nov 17, 2014)

I guess the next step is to check the distribution of grounds with a bottomless pf?

I had noticed that sometimes the puck is a little wet when I whack it out.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

colm1989 said:


> Just to drag this up again, because I'm still not pulling shots I'm happy with.
> 
> I've been using Rwandan Gisuma Bourbon beans from Rave, roasted on 15th of December but only opened beginning of this week.
> 
> ...


Best way to taste/check out coffee is to cup it. Don't need anything fancy - small bowl will do.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Pulling espressos from roasts that highlight fruit/acidic notes can be more challenging as it's easier to end up under extracting which accentuates the sharper acidic notes.


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## jj_glos (Dec 27, 2014)

Sorry OP, I don't have a solution to your issues, you are not alone though as I am having similar issues! I've been using 16g so will up it to 18g, also I didn't realise the issue with sourness could be with the beans. The beans I have been using are rated 8/10 for acidity in the tasting notes, so perhaps not the best beans to try to learn with? I do have some espresso specific blends on the way from HasBean so perhaps I'll have some better luck with those in a week or so.

I have managed to pull only one good shot so far, which was shortly after getting the machine and doing the OPV mod just before boxing it up for Christmas. This was with the last of the previous beans that I had, so that may explain the issues I have been having.

I might get some beans from the supermarket just so I have something to play with until my other beans arrive and are rested.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

I've seen you've tried to whack on the steam for 5-10 seconds then switch back to Espresso and pull your shot

Try this again as it may help reduce the sourness (which may be caused by underextraction)

Ignore the crema issue - that's not where the taste is - it's in the body of the shot


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jj_glos said:


> I might get some beans from the supermarket just so I have something to play with until my other beans arrive and are rested.


I wouldn't buy supermarket coffee for espresso ( unless its got a roast date on it , unlikely ) , its a waste of time trying to dial in and get a decent extraction


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## jj_glos (Dec 27, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> I wouldn't buy supermarket coffee for espresso ( unless its got a roast date on it , unlikely ) , its a waste of time trying to dial in and get a decent extraction


It's literally just so I have something to play with, I wouldn't be expecting much (boys and their new toys and all that). I did have some beans arrive today that I wasn't expecting (small batch coffee company subscription) but from reading here it's not good to use fresh beans for espresso? I do actually like using them from fresh in the Aeropress and seeing how the flavour develops. I get the impression that with espresso I could get something nasty tasting though? Can you tell I'm still very much in the learning phase?









Helpfully these beans include more info on using for espresso (19g for a 36g yield). They have a similar flavour profile to the beans I currently have, so I will try that method but I don't have many beans left


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Brewed is fine using fresh beans...

Espresso some rest will make your extractions more consistent and taste may develope for some beans.

What did you get from the supermarket?


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

If you take out the required amount of beans and let them breathe for an hour or two then use them, some of the gases will have dissipated.

There may still be bubbles though.

It will be drinkable but may lack the depth of having let them rest for a few days.


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## jj_glos (Dec 27, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Brewed is fine using fresh beans...
> 
> Espresso some rest will make your extractions more consistent and taste may develope for some beans.
> 
> What did you get from the supermarket?


I haven't got any from the supermarket yet, I've just been looking into Ethical Addictions coffee in Gloucester, I might drive down to get some beans from the cafe they supply (if they sell them). The coffee from the Small Batch Coffee Company is Rwanda Kinyaga, a red bourbon.



Glenn said:


> If you take out the required amount of beans and let them breathe for an hour or two then use them, some of the gases will have dissipated.
> 
> There may still be bubbles though.
> 
> It will be drinkable but may lack the depth of having let them rest for a few days.


Thanks both, I'll let these rest a while before using for espresso


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## colm1989 (Nov 17, 2014)

Glenn said:


> I've seen you've tried to whack on the steam for 5-10 seconds then switch back to Espresso and pull your shot
> 
> Try this again as it may help reduce the sourness (which may be caused by underextraction)
> 
> Ignore the crema issue - that's not where the taste is - it's in the body of the shot


Thanks Glenn, I've tried flicking on the steam switch before pulling a shot again, and it's certainly taken a bit of the edge off the shot, but it's still a bit more sour than I'd expect it to be, even for a light/medium roast.

Visually the shots are looking great though! I know taste is more important but that's gotta be a step in the right direction! Good syrupy consistency and a clearly defined crema that stays right to the bottom of the shot...

At least they look good, even if I wouldn't be happy serving them to a guest


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## mcharrogate (Aug 20, 2012)

Just a quick check on the OP's progress - did you ever do the OPV mod? It's not the be all and end all but as a classic owner personally I found it made a big difference to both mouth feel and, more importantly, taste. Look at it this way - at present you are having to compensate, prob in shot prep, for the shortcomings of the gaggia pressure setup.


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## mcharrogate (Aug 20, 2012)

Also might be worth slightly tightening the grind to get more like 27 - 28g output from 18g input in same time, and see what you make of that. This is on basis that you follow Glenn's suggestion too re steam switch btw, definitely helpful.


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## StuartS (Jan 2, 2015)

Just to keep this thread going, I have recently joined the forum and having been happy with my coffee making for a while now, I've just recently started looking for a good espresso as opposed to simply making nice cappuccinos and lattes. I trawled the forums for a thread like this and there seem to be a few people trying for the same objective.

I am aware that I just might not have a good taste for espresso, or that my taste buds fail to pick out the flavours that balance any sourness or bitterness.

Nevertheless I would like to get a "nicer" tasting espresso. Having read some posts on this subject, specifically with the Gaggia Classic, I can see a few things I need to address and I would appreciate any comments on these (in no particular order):

1. Beans - I use Happy Donkey Italian beans. These are cheap and for me they are sufficient for making nice milk based drinks. I started a few years ago with a Dualit Espressivo machine and a basic burr grinder and used beans from a couple of local roasters (Pumphreys and OCC). I then realised that the Dualit had a pressurised basket and that the machine/grinder just wasn't getting close to extracting the full flavour of the beans. I also wasn't happy with the steaming performance from the weedy thermobloc so it was time to upgrade. I bought a Classic and an MC2 grinder. I added a Silvia steam wand and bought a standard non pressurised basket and a naked portafilter - I was going to get this espresso sorted! I really can't remember if I tried many espressos at the time but I probably quickly reverted back to milk based drinks and having better equipment, I was very happy with the drinks. Hence the use of relatively cheap beans. I can go back to beans from Pumphreys ( a good selection available) or OCC who roast very near where I live. Is there anything I should be looking for in beans for nice espresso. e.g does an Italian style (dark, oily roast) bean make a nice balanced espresso?

Dose and brew ratio - I have always dosed 15g and I weigh this on (0.1g) scales. I always time the extraction and recently started weighing too. I'm getting around 35-40g in the cup in 27s and this is quite consistent. Yesterday, I tried to get my brew ratio down, aiming for 30g in 27s. I reached 30g is 24s and the shot was fine (according to my wife who has a better sense of taste than me). I ground a tad finer aiming for a longer pull and the machine choked for 4-5s before flowing. The resulting shot was more bitter/sharp and I wasn't happy with the machine choking so I've gone back to 35g in 27s from a 15g dose. Now I'm reading that my dose could be higher and that I should reduce the OPV setting (I assume mine is around the factory setting of 14 bar(ish)). I am a bit unsure of what to do next and still concerned about the choking (could be a grinder problem - more of that in a bit). If I reduce the OPV setting, the machine will choke more readily, right? If this is the case I can't see me getting brew ratios of much less that 1:2.

Grind - The MC2 was certainly a step up from my Cuisinart burr grinder (which I don't think would grind fine enough for a non pressurised basket anyway) but I know that it has limitations. I have found it to be very consistent though and as mentioned above I have been able to get 35g from 15g without much variation (same HD Italian beans). About 6 weeks ago, the grinder seemed to jolt/kick a couple of times while grinding my normal dose (I only grind 15-16g and sit a tamper on top of the beans to stop them jumping around). What came out choked the machine, so I backed off half a turn, but it choked again. Another half a turn, choked again. I could feel that the grind was finer and the tamper was sitting lower in the basket (finer grind, lower ground volume). Thinking something was damaged, I did a partial strip down by removing the top burr carrier and giving it a good clean. I didn't find anything damaged and the burrs were fine. I had marked the top burr carrier position but when I re-assembled everything my initial grinds were way too coarse and it took me a while to get back to normal. Since this incident I feel that the grinder is not as consistent as before - could something else be wrong with it? Also, can I expect a reasonable espresso shot from what the MC2 grinds?

Distribution/Tamping - My routine is this: Grind into a small plastic tub. I fish out what I can from the grinder with a bent crochet needle (I have removed the step from the chute so I can get into the grind chamber). Normally I grind about 16g, discard the first 0.5g or so and then weigh the final 15g for use. I tip this into the portafilter via a cut off conical cup and then stir this with the crochet needle to break up any lumps. I tap the portafilter to settle the grounds and then sit the tamper on top to level and use a very light conical like rotation with the tamper handle. When level, I apply some pressure (probably not 30lbs, nearer 20) and I think quite consistently. I hold the tamper so that I can feel the top edge of the tamper against the edge of the basket with my forefinger and thumb and I reckon this is quite consistent too. My tamper has an 11mm side and the top edge sits just above the top of the basket when tamping. If I increased my dose, it would sit higher and I may not be able to feel the edge as well. My tamper is flat and 57mm. I have measured the baskets at 58.1mm just below the ridge. I have thought about getting a 58mm tamper of possibly a VST basket/58.35mm tamper set from Madebyknock, although I have read that their service can be erratic. Any suggestions here?

In summary then:

1. I need to use fresher, better quality beans but ones that suit my espresso taste (slightly sweet with nutty or chocolately flavours)

2. How do I know what brew ratio to aim for - just by taste? Is it likely to be

3. I need to experiment with a higher dose, adjusting the grind as required and find out why my machine is choking. I need to check the OPV setting at the same time.

4. Should I invest is a 58mm tamper or go for a VST basket and tamper set?

5. Is it worth stripping the grinder down further to check for other damage (I read that the plastic gear drive can get damaged). Should I think about a better grinder?

Sorry, this is quite a long post and that I've introduced a few things specific to me and my equipment but hopefully it will prompt further discussion in the hunt for a better shot.

Thanks

Stuart


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

HI , and welcome

if you havent read this and the associated link please do ..

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?3858-So-you%92ve-just-bought-your-Gaggia-Classic



StuartS said:


> In summary then:
> 
> 1. I need to use fresher, better quality beans but ones that suit my espresso taste (slightly sweet with nutty or chocolately flavours) *YES **ABSOLUTELY*
> 
> ...


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## Bigpikle (Oct 14, 2014)

I'd also recommend a bigger dose than 15g in a double basket - try 17g or 18g and go from there.


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## StuartS (Jan 2, 2015)

I'm going to increase the dose in 0.5g steps because I'll also need to make the grind coarser to compensate for the increased depth.

Thanks


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## colm1989 (Nov 17, 2014)

Having almost resigned myself to never being able to pull a great shot from my classic I ran out of the rave beans I'd been using and dug out some month old waitrose beans to satisfy my coffee fix yesterday morning...same method as before, 18g in, flush the group head, steam switch on for 10s, then pull espresso...low and behold 36g out in 28s, no hints of sour/bitter, a wonderfully thick syrupy chocolatey shot...exactly the same again yesterday afternoon and this morning...could it be that slightly older store bought beans appeal more to my taste buds? Or is there something else I'm missing?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I dont know

as Im unsure what resting period and brew ratio you were using for the Rave beans

15 >35 with a medum dark roast form Rave would have tasted bitter i suspect anyway , its too ling a brew ratio

Where you went after that i can't see

What are the waitrose beans btw..they will be older, different roast , need a different grind

There are plenty that make good espresso from the classic set up , just keep at it . Ask for advise ...

Perhaps keep a log of what your doing ( dose grind time etc , so you can see what works and doesn't )


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## colm1989 (Nov 17, 2014)

The rave beans were roasted on the 15th of Dec, and I started using them on the 29th, so two weeks after roasting.

I started with 18 in and 36 out over 27 seconds, it was a light/medium roast and I was getting sour flavours so I tried different combinations of tightening the grind, increasing the dose and tamping harder to slow down the extraction. Nothing really seemed to improve the taste I was getting, but I put this down to not being too fond of the particular roast/bean. Sadly I didn't have enough to try aeropress/French press to determine this.

Waitrose beans are in a silver packet, monsoon somethingorother, they are medium/dark roast which I reckon suits my tastes better anyway, but not a hint of sour/bitter from them....I always knew I had relatively cheap taste


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Lots of people like a Monsoon malabar ......

You tend to find they need a really fine grind

this is a darker MM blend that may suit you

http://www.steampunkcoffee.co.uk/product/zeppelin-espresso-blend-250g/

Not tried this but lots of people speak highly of them as a roaster

http://www.coffeecompass.co.uk/shop/roasted-origin-coffee/india/indian-monsoon-malabar-500g.html

I know scotford from here talks highly of these guys too

http://www.monsoonestates.co.uk/coffee-shop/monsoon-malabar/


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Monsoon Malabar from Mancoco in Manchester is awesome.......http://mancoco.co.uk/epages/950003025.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/950003025/Products/0010/SubProducts/0010-0001


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