# New coffee machine



## birel101

Hi, I'm a newbie here and was directed here by google on the search for my new machine. I currently have a barista express, it's been a good machine with the right coffee but now I think I'm ready to learn more!

I drink americano, flat whites and cappuccinos, milk based drinks take forever now it seems on my current machine. The machine that has caught my eye is the rocket Appartamento, price is perfect for me and I think it looks fantastic. Now the more I read on machines and learn more I have also took a liking to the profitec pro 500, more expensive but the boiler is insulated. Will this help the longevity off the machine? The Appartamento boiler isn't insulated and would it make much difference?

Also I think the profitec has a rotary pump so won't be so loud. Will the Appartamento suit my needs? I drink 2-3 cups a day and my daughter likes hot chocolate that I make using the barista express.

Would love some help in deciding from you.

Jay

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## josephgoodsell

@birel101 Hi, the Pro 500 appears to have a vibration pump, so it'll be comparable to the Rocket.

I have the Rocket Mozzafiato Type V, which is very similar to the Profitec but I have to say the Pro 500 looks like better value at the current price. I really like the Rockets and chose the Mozzafiato over the Appartamento because of the insulation, dual pressure gauges and nicer design. The Profitec machine has non compression water/steam valves which are probably better also.

Another one to think about is the Lelit Mara 62 - really good value HX machine. I'm guessing you've looked at Bella Barista's site?

Hope this helps


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## birel101

Thanks Joseph, yes that's where I will be purchasing a machine from. I no nothing about non compression valves so thanks for that. Im looking for a machine that will last a long time so all the little bits that I know nothing about will help me decide, I also like what you have with the shot timer built in, so do the non compression valves make a difference?

Jay


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## DavecUK

birel101 said:


> Thanks Joseph, yes that's where I will be purchasing a machine from. I no nothing about non compression valves so thanks for that. Im looking for a machine that will last a long time so all the little bits that I know nothing about will help me decide, I also like what you have with the shot timer built in, so do the non compression valves make a difference?
> 
> Jay


 It's a type of water/steam valve that closes using spring and O rings/Seat. Closing the valve releases the pressure on the spring, closing it harder does nothing else and no damage. A "compression" valve presses a seating to seal the valve as you tighten it, the more you tighten the harder it presses and the ham fisted can damage the seating pad in a short period of time.* Used properly and carefully each lasts about the same length of time...unfortunately, most people tend to overtighten the "compression" ones.* They only need finger lite until they close....


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## birel101

Thanks Dave, now I understand what it is, many thanks

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## birel101

josephgoodsell said:


> @birel101 Hi, the Pro 500 appears to have a vibration pump, so it'll be comparable to the Rocket.
> 
> I have the Rocket Mozzafiato Type V, which is very similar to the Profitec but I have to say the Pro 500 looks like better value at the current price. I really like the Rockets and chose the Mozzafiato over the Appartamento because of the insulation, dual pressure gauges and nicer design. The Profitec machine has non compression water/steam valves which are probably better also.
> 
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> Another one to think about is the Lelit Mara 62 - really good value HX machine. I'm guessing you've looked at Bella Barista's site?
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> Hope this helps
Click to expand...

 Hi Jospeh, How are you getting on with your machine? I have been looking at one and like it apart from the price:/

I have come back to look at the Lelit Mara 62, would you say this is a better machine than the Rocket Appartemento? It looks a nice machine and a great price and would give me a little more to put towards the grinder.


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## josephgoodsell

@birel101 I've really enjoyed my machine so far. I bought the Mozzafiato just before they came out with the timer version so managed to get £100 off. The timer isn't a big deal really but you might end up spending a bit more on scales to get some with a timer built in or just using a standalone timer/watch.

The Mara has an insulated boiler, vs no insulation on the Appartamento, and a brew pressure guage as well boiler pressure, whereas you only get boiler pressure on the Appartamento.

The Mara is also about 5cm narrower and about 6cm shallower, whether or not that is an advantage or disadvantage to you I don't know.

So yes, I'd say the Mara is better value but I was somewhat compelled to getting the Rocket and stepped up to the Mozzafiato because of this. If grinder budget is going to be too tight with the Rocket, I'd say Mara for sure, after all it's going to make the biggest difference in your espresso.


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## birel101

Thanks Joseph, the rockets have the looks don't they, I got a few more weeks yet to decide, I'd love to go up to Bella Barista but it's probably a 10 hour round trip for me and I hate driving this day and age! What grinder do you use with your machine?

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## josephgoodsell

I use the Niche Zero, which I bought before the Rocket and used for pour over until getting the machine. Really enjoying it


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## birel101

That's the grinder I'm looking at too, glad your enjoying your set up, must be fun

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## jimmgc51

Just to add

I have the Mozzafiato 'R' paired with the Niche & been drinking lovely coffee for over a year now.

A large investment but in my view you need a decent grinder with a good HX. I had a Mignon mk2 before the Niche & it just didn't cut it so I had to upgrade!


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## birel101

I've not had a grinder before only the built in one on the sage Barista Express so I think anything will be better than that but I hear what your all saying that the grinder is a very important piece, I'm pretty sure I will end up with the niche

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## NikonGuy

I have had my Appartamento for a couple of years now and it has never missed a beat. The grinder is as important as the machine IMHO, I went for the Eureka Olympus 75E with with Titanium Mythos Burrs which cost nearly as much as the Rocket but was well worth the investment and again has operated flawlessly.

Personally I don't think the Niche Zero is good enough for the Rocket, but if funds are limited it gets you started.

Incidentally both were purchased from Bella, the service from them was superb!


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## DavecUK

NikonGuy said:


> Personally I don't think the Niche Zero is good enough for the Rocket, but if funds are tight it gets you started.


 Why do you belive this?


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## birel101

Thanks NikonGuy, I see they are bringing out a black case version in a couple months, looks cool, very different to the norm

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## NikonGuy

Just checked and I have had my Apartmento nearly 4 years, the only thing I change is the head gasket every 12 months, I would say the machine is used on average for 4 coffee's a day...


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## coffeelife

Thank you for your helpful tips.


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## DavecUK

coffeelife said:


> Thank you for your helpful tips.


 Don't be concerned about the Niche Zero not being good enough for the Rocket Appartmento, it's *more* than good enough and I happily use it on pressure profiling machines that are much more demanding than the Appartmento (a basic HX machine). I have also extensively used many grinders including the Niche and don't find it lacking at all.

If you can though look at other machines not just the appartmento as there are other options offering great value for money that might be technically better, see how BB advise.


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## birel101

I think I have settled for the ECM Mechankia v slim Dave, it's a nice size and looks stunning, the machine and grinder isn't going to take up much more room than the barista express width wise and seems set up well inside so should last a good few years I preferred the look of it against the lelit Mara too which does matter doesn't it? Just need to wait a little while for it to come in stock!

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## NikonGuy

birel101 said:


> I think I have settled for the ECM Mechankia v slim Dave, it's a nice size and looks stunning, the machine and grinder isn't going to take up much more room than the barista express width wise and seems set up well inside so should last a good few years
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> I preferred the look of it against the lelit Mara too which does matter doesn't it?
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> Just need to wait a little while for it to come in stock!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Looks like a nice machine! I do think the Rocket looks better however, have you seen both in the flesh? I considered ECM myself as the build quality was very good but opted for the cheaper Rocket that let me put more funds into the grinder, a compromise I'm glad I made.

What grinder are you going for?


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## NikonGuy

DavecUK said:


> Don't be concerned about the Niche Zero not being good enough for the Rocket Appartmento, it's *more* than good enough and I happily use it on pressure profiling machines that are much more demanding than the Appartmento (a basic HX machine). I have also extensively used many grinders including the Niche and don't find it lacking at all.
> 
> If you can though look at other machines not just the appartmento as there are other options offering great value for money that might be technically better, see how BB advise.


 Sorry but I found it poorly made and the grind with oily beans was very inconsistent...

I also don't think it will last as long as a commercial grade machine.


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## DavecUK

birel101 said:


> I think I have settled for the ECM Mechankia v slim Dave, it's a nice size and looks stunning, the machine and grinder isn't going to take up much more room than the barista express width wise and seems set up well inside so should last a good few years
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> I preferred the look of it against the lelit Mara too which does matter doesn't it?
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> Just need to wait a little while for it to come in stock!


 I think looks are important so always get what you like, especially if technically there is not much between them. I believe either of those two will be technically better than the Appartmento.


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## birel101

NikonGuy said:


> Looks like a nice machine! I do think the Rocket looks better however, have you seen both in the flesh? I considered ECM myself as the build quality was very good but opted for the cheaper Rocket that let me put more funds into the grinder, a compromise I'm glad I made.
> 
> What grinder are you going for?


 I am going for the Niche lol It seems a populer grinder for most. I have seen the Appartmento in the flesh but not the ECM, I do love the look of the Rockets but the size and the internals made my mind up going for the ECM and i love the handles?


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## DavecUK

birel101 said:


> I am going for the Niche lol It seems a populer grinder for most. I have seen the Appartmento in the flesh but not the ECM, I do love the look of the Rockets but the size and the internals made my mind up going for the ECM and i love the handles?


 Good choice all round I'd say.


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## birel101

Thanks Dave,

It's a big jump from my first Nespresso machine which I thought was the best coffee you could buy at the time then after a couple of years I realised how expensive it was! The Barista Express has been good and never had a problem with it in the five years I've had it apart from that it took me six months to learn how to get anything tasting good from it!

In the month that I have been reading this forum, I have learnt so much more than in the past seven years of coffee making put together and from what I can tell, these pro machines look easier to make great coffee. Or I just know more now? Can't wait!


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## NikonGuy

birel101 said:


> I am going for the Niche lol It seems a populer grinder for most. I have seen the Appartmento in the flesh but not the ECM, I do love the look of the Rockets but the size and the internals made my mind up going for the ECM and i love the handles?


 Depends how long you want your equipment to last, I was looking at around 10 years for my gear, the ECM will last that but not the Niche it really was not that well made both mechanically and cosmetically. Like all over hyped products time will tell, but remember I tried to warn you! ?


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## DavecUK

birel101 said:


> In the month that I have been reading this forum, I have learnt so much more than in the past seven years of coffee making put together and from what I can tell, these pro machines look easier to make great coffee. Or I just know more now? Can't wait!


 It's not like any other hobby where pro equipment is normally for those who have attained a certain standard of expertise because it's hard to use. Peversely with coffee, the better the kit, usually the easier it is to get great coffee from. Of course there comes a point where profiling machines do require a certain level of understanding to get the best from them but even without that you can get a great shot..

I often get comments that my videos have great looking shots, or how many times did I have to shoot it to get a great looking shot...the truth is I walk up and shoot video, almost all shots are fine, which is how it should be. If I had machines from the non prosumer class, I would have a much lower success rate and a harder job.

4 simple rules to make good coffee.

1. Good machine & grinder (check)

2. Well roasted fresh coffee (?)

3. A set of basic skills and starter for 10 e.g. 17-18g in and 34-38g out in 30s at 93 to 94C (check)

4. keep everything spotlessly clean (especially behind the shower screen)

With an HX you will have to learn flushing, with more expensive dual boilers, even that isn't necessary.....


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## birel101

NikonGuy said:


> Depends how long you want your equipment to last, I was looking at around 10 years for my gear, the ECM will last that but not the Niche it really was not that well made both mechanically and cosmetically. Like all over hyped products time will tell, but remember I tried to warn you! ?


 More researching to do?


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## birel101

I have only had the shower screen out for the first time ever this year after watching your video?


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## NikonGuy

birel101 said:


> More researching to do?


 In the interest of fairness I had one of the first units, not sure if Niche practice Kaizen or if there have been any changes to later shipments...


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## birel101

So I've just had a newletter from BB about a new Lelit coming, the MaraX with better heat control at a great price like the other Maras. Nothing much about it online though.

Still prefer the look on the ECM but like the price of the MaraX and maybe better with brew temp?


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## catpuccino

birel101 said:


> So I've just had a newletter from BB about a new Lelit coming, the MaraX with better heat control at a great price like the other Maras. Nothing much about it online though.
> 
> Still prefer the look on the ECM but like the price of the MaraX and maybe better with brew temp?


 Was there a specific price in the newsletter?


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## birel101

Sorry it was instagram, £959

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## DavecUK

catpuccino said:


> Was there a specific price in the newsletter?


 It's on the web site: £959

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-marax-espresso machine.html

I have had a prototype unit since last May for engineering feedback....Lelit are sending me a production machine at the end of this month, or perhaps a little before. Here is a photo of the Prototype. It was meant to come to me in January but I think they were running late with it. Good job really as I had 2 other pre-production machines on the bench for engineering feedback.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/9978-what-did-the-postie-bring-you-today/page/478/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=678348&embedComment=678348&embedDo=findComment#comment-678348


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## birel101

Won't let me view that discussion? Is it worth thinking about I've the ECM Dave? Or you not allowed to discuss it too much?

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## DavecUK

birel101 said:


> Won't let me view that discussion? Is it worth thinking about I've the ECM Dave? Or you not allowed to discuss it too much?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Until I see the production machine on my bench and test it out it's hard to comment. If you are not in a huge rush why not wait until 1st week in March or before for the review and then make a considered decision. Your ECM Barista is a good machine and should last until then. By that time the Crem One 2B LFPP review should be published, Minimas on a BB special, Mara X review should be done and you can start to decide. I won't have done the Lelit Elizabeth review by then but even that might be a contender...who knows, depends on what they've done to it.

Surely worth waiting a month!


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## birel101

Sorry Dave, it was meant to say is it worth thinking about over the ECM mechanika v slim but thanks I can wait a month 

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## NikonGuy

I would stick to the ECM machine, if Lelit needs to send out prototype units to the public for testing it does not say a lot for there own in-house R&D...


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## birel101

Grinder purchased, went for niche as it seems perfect for me, Price is perfect and didn't want to or need to spend more on something more commercial, I think it would be a waste plus some off these grinders are very tall and won't fit under my cupboards. Still leaning towards the ECM as the build quality looks amazing but will wait a little longer to see what the Mara x is like, the quietness has me interested. I can continue learning the unpredictable ways of my barista express for a little longer Thanks for all your help.

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## Quenteagle

NikonGuy said:


> I would stick to the ECM machine, if Lelit needs to send out prototype units to the public for testing it does not say a lot for there own in-house R&D...


 I struggle to understand the reasoning here. Every good company is doing this. You first start with internal testing and then you get selected individuals to review your product at a larger scale. Quite often you find out new things to fix/improve.

Lelit has a very good reputation when it comes to their products and their price point. The Mara and Bianca are exceptional machines compared to competition a similar price point.


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## MediumRoastSteam

NikonGuy said:


> I would stick to the ECM machine, if Lelit needs to send out prototype units to the public for testing it does not say a lot for there own in-house R&D...


You do realise that ECM has ****ALSO***** sent one of their machines to Dave? Is this now a bad thing?

I'm struggling to make any rationale about your posts, honestly. At this point I question the basis of them. Would be great if you could expand upon them, as you seem to have some knowledge about R&D, quality control and production and able to detect and understand when a product is well made and will last a while.

Before you ask again, yes, I'm a Niche owner, from the very first shipments.


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## mctrials23

You give things to external testers to see what the average human or someone with a different set of requirements makes of your product. I'm a software developer and customers are far better at finding bugs than in house testers. You are relying on people with a very good knowledge of your products to mis-use, abuse and generally do utterly retarded things to your product with internal testing. Joe public is far better at that.


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## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You do realise that ECM has ****ALSO***** sent one of their machines to Dave? Is this now a bad thing?
> 
> I'm struggling to make any rationale about your posts, honestly. At this point I question the basis of them. Would be great if you could expand upon them, as you seem to have some knowledge about R&D, quality control and production and able to detect and understand when a product is well made and will last a while.
> 
> Before you ask again, yes, I'm a Niche owner, from the very first shipments.


 Ohh...you shouldn't use logic and facts to back up your arguments ? Yeah ECM sent me it directly (nothing to do with BB) to have a look at and report back issues....so when they launch in June/July whenever they don't have any real facepalms. I've found stuff, fed it back and they are working on it. It's on the counter as a daily driver, because sometimes things take a while to show up. The only thing I have to be very careful of, is to not show it more than was seen at host and not show in action because it's a prototype (my rules, not ECMs) and I know many areas are going to change....so it wouldn't be fair.

I realise people sometimes do comment on prototypes long before they should and with little understanding. I sometimes will but I'm super careful to ensure that if I do it's either production ready or I am fully knowledgable about what's being fixed.

The Lelit Mara X I had since last May, I've never really said anything about it, I think HB got a unit back last October and commented. I get the first "pre production" Mara X (only pre production because I will get it before others) to review. It's going to be a very interesting review because I'm going to side to side it with the prototype and show how it can take 9 months to get something to market, from what might seem initially to be a ready to go product. Plus the differences between the two. The Lelit Mara X will also be coming direct, nothing to do with

At host 2019 Lelit asked me if I would have a look at the Lelit Elizabeth...a possibly neglected hidden jewel....so I will, if it gives the consumer a good dual boiler value proposition.

I've been using the VDT for months now and am doing a review about that prototype, in case Antonio wants to move it on into production or crowd funding?

Kaffelogic Nano - very interesting, it will be a lot of work but fun to review as I can do it in a warm kitchen and small roasters are an interest area of mine

Crem One 2B LFPP - I'm sure Crem hate me just a little bit but they will thank me in the long run, another production ready machine last October, now fixed 

I've had other things as well and *one day live in hope of a smaller sized 1 group Vostok, although I may get beaten to the punch on a review of a 2 group unit by someone on here*. When you have designed, or help tweak the design and tested Espresso machines, Roasters Grinders etc.. over more than 15 years, people do hear about you and do ask you to have a look at stuff. For me it's a hobby it's fun. I don't do it for the money or free equipment but because I am interested in it. I review what I like and is interesting and often like what I review.

Perhaps with NGs skills....the companies will come to him and ask...or he can contact them and offer his services....there's plenty of work out there!

P.S. The smart companies are the ones that get knowledgable individuals from outside to look at their product and feed back, the smartest ones then listen and act!


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## MediumRoastSteam

Ok. An achievement. It's the debut of my ignore list. 

Edit: given the moderator intervention (see post immediately after this) my comment above "Ok. an achievement" no longer makes any sense as it was related to one of the posts removed.


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## The Systemic Kid

Posts have been removed as they are unacceptable and derogatory. Please stick to forum rules and post respectfully.


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