# Grinder ranking



## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Why is there no post with grinder rankings...

Price not a concern ranked on grind/ ability to grind

its such a mind field, like seriously crazy. 🤦‍♂️

Whos going start off with a list 🤷‍♂️


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I think each persons experience on grinder varies


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Oh grinders🤣😜


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tinkstar said:


> Why is there no post with grinder rankings...
> 
> Price not a concern ranked on grind/ ability to grind
> 
> ...


 How are you going to rank the grinds?

Needs expensive equipment for espresso, even when you have the data, correlations with preference are loose. Equipment is chap for filter, but still loose in terms of correlation.

People usually rank by price, anticipated workflow, dose consistency, looks, height etc. To claim to have tangible insights into any other aspect is probably more noise than information.


----------



## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

My extensive list of grinders I own/have owned...

1, Ceado e92
2, Niche Zero

Nb. Ranked for espresso.


----------



## jonr2 (Jan 6, 2021)

hey (NB - i am a newbie so the following is a regurgitation of what i have gleaned from this forum and elsewhere but hope it helps - i wont be offended it you ignore though)

from what i have gathered, the quality of a grinder seems to be too subjective to put into a formal ranking - i guess a bit like ranking cars: what you like and how you want to use it are such important factors that no single list can exist - a Ferrari is no good if you want to go on holiday with 4 kids and a dog.

To get to a grinder decision and to help you navigate through this section, i think there are a 3 'easy' decisions to make:

1- do you want to change the way you make coffee regularly (daily or multiple times / week) - if so ease of moving from 1 grind type to another is likely to be really important to you

2- do you want to chop and change your beans regularly - if so you are likely to value either a small hopper or a single dosing grinder

3- do you have size constraints - this will help to determine whether a commercial type (stock or modified) grinder or one designed for home use would work

Once you have answered these 3 questions - i think you will get a lot more targeted advice from people on this forum. You may also get asked questions which you don't know the answer to - like do you prefer the taste of flat of conical burrs.

If you genuinely have zero budget constraints you will likely find yourself looking at grinders in excess of £1500 (similar to the car analogy - if you are happy to spend £100k on a car, you are unlikely to find yourself in a Ford garage)

Hope this helps

Jon


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Tinkstar said:


> Why is there no post with grinder rankings...
> 
> Price not a concern ranked on grind/ ability to grind
> 
> ...


 I rank " insert gridner I currently own " the best

IMHO I'd say you cant really eyeball grind consistency beyond the outer reaches of it being near useless Tbh

All grinders should have the ability to grind


----------



## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

I am curious in case of a blind taste how many of us would be capable to spot the coffee from a 300£ grinder and a 1500£ one. I surely won't.


----------



## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

profesor_historia said:


> I am curious in case of a blind taste how many of us would be capable to spot the coffee from a 300£ grinder and a 1500£ one. I surely won't.


 This is kind of why I think price is irrelevant.

Just because it's a £100k car does it go from a to b same as a £500 yes.

Does it taste the same yes. Then that's what matters

I suppose my frustration is even from same brand grinders which don't really say or declare the difference in grind but more... other techy stuff 🤦‍♂️

It's probably my least favourite part of working out how to get a good espresso at home, is the grinder purchase side of things. 🤦‍♂️


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Tinkstar said:


> This is kind of why I think price is irrelevant.
> 
> Just because it's a £100k car does it go from a to b same as a £500 yes.
> 
> ...


 Laser analysis for grind costs a lot and means nothing to 99.9 percent of people .

Buy a gridner , log off the forum , enjoy your future coffee


----------



## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Tinkstar said:


> This is kind of why I think price is irrelevant.
> 
> Just because it's a £100k car does it go from a to b same as a £500 yes.
> 
> ...


 Quote your price range and there will usually be a 'common knowledge best for that price' grinder.


----------



## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

-Mac said:


> Quote your price range, what you want it for (espresso/pour over, etc), and there will usually be a 'common knowledge best for that price' grinder.


----------



## jonr2 (Jan 6, 2021)

@Tinkstar - if you fancy a bit of a geek out in terms of analysis on grind, have a look at this campaign on kickstarter - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/goat-mug/arco-2-in-1-coffee-grinder/posts

if you look in the updates section, during the campaign they did some analysis on grind distribution which i found quite interesting. i have to say i didnt really understand it all but i think i got the idea of what they were showing.

if you have a look - let me know what you think


----------



## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

jonr2 said:


> @Tinkstar - if you fancy a bit of a geek out in terms of analysis on grind, have a look at this campaign on kickstarter - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/goat-mug/arco-2-in-1-coffee-grinder/posts
> if you look in the updates section, during the campaign they did some analysis on grind distribution which i found quite interesting. i have to say i didnt really understand it all but i think i got the idea of what they were showing.
> if you have a look - let me know what you think


I will receive it May/June btw, I will put a review here.


----------



## Lawn (Dec 15, 2020)

As a newbie I admit I probably couldn't taste the difference between conical or flat burrs, I'm just in the process of refurbing a mazzer sj which will be my first 'proper' grinder. It was relatively cheap and they are a great starter grinder or so I've heard!

Just my 2 cents, start small and progress just like when you when you pass your driving test. You don't jump straight into a Ferrari...... unless your really lucky haha


----------



## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

profesor_historia said:


> jonr2 said:
> 
> 
> > @Tinkstar - if you fancy a bit of a geek out in terms of analysis on grind, have a look at this campaign on kickstarter - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/goat-mug/arco-2-in-1-coffee-grinder/posts
> ...





jonr2 said:


> @Tinkstar - if you fancy a bit of a geek out in terms of analysis on grind, have a look at this campaign on kickstarter - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/goat-mug/arco-2-in-1-coffee-grinder/posts
> 
> if you look in the updates section, during the campaign they did some analysis on grind distribution which i found quite interesting. i have to say i didnt really understand it all but i think i got the idea of what they were showing.
> 
> if you have a look - let me know what you think


 For £250 ish it looks amazingly stylish and read a fair few of the comments and updates and it's as good as A punt as another grinder it seems 🤷‍♂️


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Tinkstar said:


> For £250 ish it looks amazingly stylish and read a fair few of the comments and updates and it's as good as A punt as another grinder it seems 🤷‍♂️


 I hope you have a better coffee related experience on Kickstarter than I have had . 
Be prepared for to have patience is the best advice I can give


----------



## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Mrboots2u said:


> I hope you have a better coffee related experience on Kickstarter than I have had .
> Be prepared for to have patience is the best advice I can give


 Do tell I don't mind a side story on threads, unless it's too painful 🙈


----------



## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

Tinkstar said:


> Do tell I don't mind a side story on threads, unless it's too painful


IQ2 by any chance?


----------



## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Jason11 said:


> IQ2 by any chance?


 Is this a stab at my IQ Level? Or the kickstarter that was a bad experince 🤣


----------



## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

Tinkstar said:


> Is this a stab at my IQ Level? Or the kickstarter that was a bad experince


 not at all. It was/is a Kickstarter that has been going on for years now for power meter pedals for cycling that hasn't gone down too well with the backers.


----------



## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Jason11 said:


> not at all. It was/is a Kickstarter that has been going on for years now for power meter pedals for cycling that hasn't gone down too well with the backers.


 I think I heard about that (I do triathlons so we love our gadets) few kickstarters for power meters. 2 I knew of bombed


----------



## jonr2 (Jan 6, 2021)

Tinkstar said:


> I think I heard about that (I do triathlons so we love our gadets) few kickstarters for power meters. 2 I knew of bombed


 🙂

i guess i wasnt necessarily recommending the grinder with my post - just thought you would be interested in the data in the updates about grind distribution etc.

For me kickstarter / IGG is a really personal thing - you are taking a risk on something which is not yet in market and that works for some and not others


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jonr2 said:


> 🙂
> 
> i guess i wasnt necessarily recommending the grinder with my post - just thought you would be interested in the data in the updates about grind distribution etc.
> 
> For me kickstarter / IGG is a really personal thing - you are taking a risk on something which is not yet in market and that works for some and not others


 It's difficult to take anything away from the grind distribution, without comparisons to other grinders on the same equipment & presentation.


----------



## jonr2 (Jan 6, 2021)

MWJB said:


> It's difficult to take anything away from the grind distribution, without comparisons to other grinders on the same equipment & presentation.


 they did some of that right? they only did the full analysis on their grinder but they did some other comparisons against a couple of other IIRC

its by no means comprehensive but as a newbie i found it quite interesting info that i hadnt seen before - i took absolutely no actions from it however 🙂


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jonr2 said:


> they did some of that right? they only did the full analysis on their grinder but they did some other comparisons against a couple of other IIRC


 Not using the same Mastersizer 3000.

The 400 & 800um sift results are oddly presented & basically unreadable. It's easy enough to show overlaying curves & I'd consider differences of +/-2% to essentially be the same. Looks like they used a Kruve & not ISO/ASTM sieves.


----------



## jonr2 (Jan 6, 2021)

MWJB said:


> Not using the same Mastersizer 3000.
> 
> The 400 & 800um sift results are oddly presented & basically unreadable. It's easy enough to show overlaying curves & I'd consider differences of +/-2% to essentially be the same. Looks like they used a Kruve & not ISO/ASTM sieves.


 oh thats interesting - thank you


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jonr2 said:


> oh thats interesting - thank you


 Here's an example of how you could present Kruve results, but you need at least 1000 as the larger sieve with fine grinds, up to 1600 with coarse/wide distribution grinds to capture a significant proportion between the sieves, with 400 & 800 you just see the "toe" of the curve . There is no implication here of "quality in the cup", just objective sift data.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ew_UIalmMnIfKm1Yewwb2q6pyqm-5mfKP9DV9MO8MzU/edit?usp=sharing


----------



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Here's an example of how you could present Kruve results


 Are there an espresso level results around ? Not that I am a great fan of this area more curious. There are too many variables as no way to account for shape of the grinds really so sieves are likely to be a good as any. There is a photographic method around on the web - or was.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Are there an espresso level results around ? Not that I am a great fan of this area more curious. There are too many variables as no way to account for shape of the grinds really so sieves are likely to be a good as any. There is a photographic method around on the web - or was.


 There was the Perger/Klatt observations, carried out at Mahlkonig:

https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/the-ek43-part-two/

People are trying to invent new methods all the time, but they overlook any meaningful correlation to existing datums, so it's impossible to know what they mean.

For instance, for drip, we know that trapping around 68% of the ground weight between 2 sieves, one twice the size of the other, is normal. ~95% landing between 2 sieves x4 apart. For Kruve the sieves need to be more like x3 apart to catch 68% ground weight.

For espresso & the PSD in the article linked, average size varies from 230-450um, but all have 16-19% of the volume density (not ground weight) around 80um (on this particular machine & brew parameters).


----------



## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

MWJB said:


> There was the Perger/Klatt observations, carried out at Mahlkonig:
> 
> https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/the-ek43-part-two/
> 
> ...


 So in English for us normals lol

There is no standard test, no standard way to categorise grinds, so different machines can be the best at their test choice 🤣


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tinkstar said:


> So in English for us normals lol
> 
> There is no standard test, no standard way to categorise grinds, so different machines can be the best at their test choice 🤣


 No, it's better to go by extraction, because that's what grinding drives (do this by assessing flavour balance at a given ratio, then change ratio longer if you can't get balance).

You say "machines", did you mean grinders?

The real take home is that grinders make different distributions, but still work & make tasty drinks, so categorising grinds is pretty moot unless you have some weird, non-standard needs, or a weird, non-standard grinder. If you buy something that is known to work, you're pretty much safe. I know I have grinders with wildly different distributions, but most make tasty drinks.


----------



## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

Did the YouTube or review links get deleted, I can't see when in the earlier posts now?


----------



## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

MWJB said:


> No, it's better to go by extraction, because that's what grinding drives (do this by assessing flavour balance at a given ratio, then change ratio longer if you can't get balance).
> 
> You say "machines", did you mean grinders?
> 
> The real take home is that grinders make different distributions, but still work & make tasty drinks, so categorising grinds is pretty moot unless you have some weird, non-standard needs, or a weird, non-standard grinder. If you buy something that is known to work, you're pretty much safe. I know I have grinders with wildly different distributions, but most make tasty drinks.


 But everywhere agrees taste is too subjective.

So that's why I assumed we where looking at grind size.

If all grinders are set to setting 5 and we expect 800 as the grind size but some go above and below...what I would regard as the best would be the one which gets 800 at the highest rate/quantity.

That's what I would expect from a grind test.

Because other grind size and taste, how do you test a grinder ?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tinkstar said:


> But everywhere agrees taste is too subjective.
> 
> So that's why I assumed we where looking at grind size.
> 
> ...


 OK...wait a second...

Preference is subjective, grind size & extraction are objective & partially, not totally correlate with subjective preference via brew/extraction efficiency. E.g. very few people might say that 16.5%EY is their favourite extraction over a large sample of coffees.

Grinder settings are not required to adhere to a tangible size guide, some are (like Ditting), but mostly grind size numbers on grinders are arbitrary, like a 5W amp at 2, won't produce the same SPL as a 200W amp at 2.

Grind size - do you mean average size, or 16%, 84%, 90%. When you grind coffee for filter you get particles from a few um to 2mm, with espresso it can be up to 1mm, or a bit over. Coffee breaks up into a wide spread of sizes, you can't say, "my grind is all 800um", you could say it's 800um average, but a tight distribution grind will have the 16% point at a larger particle size than a wide distribution grinder. The wide distribution grinder will effectively be coarser, because it's 84%/90% point will be larger than the tight grinder. So you just brew differently & largely normalise the flavour.

A grind test, tests grinds, not 'in the cup' result, which is your responsibility. There is no grinder anywhere that can anticipate what you intend to do & tweak grind to match. You have, by far, the biggest influence on brew result. The potential in the coffee is out of your hands...that was decided by grower & roaster.

First test for a grinder that functions (most of them) is, how much can you spend, what is your workflow (on demand vs single dose), then what is prettiest.

Manufacturers test their grinders (well, big ones do) and they still make a range of them & sell them.


----------



## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

MWJB said:


> OK...wait a second...
> 
> Preference is subjective, grind size & extraction are objective & partially, not totally correlate with subjective preference via brew/extraction efficiency. E.g. very few people might say that 16.5%EY is their favourite extraction over a large sample of coffees.
> 
> ...


 I am being honest here an I think... I think I understand all of that.

Yes I was meaning average.

I was just saying grind setting 5 for sake of arguments as each grinder has different numbers but assuming you could put them all to the same expected grind size.

So what's the main difference between prices. What's really driving the value up from a 300 - 500 - 800- stupid money.

When you say work flow do you mean how many coffees you are making and how fast? Or x grams in x grams out? Single dosing and hopper?

Lastly, massively appreciating your input 😁 it's just in the edge of my level of geek 😆


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tinkstar said:


> So what's the main difference between prices. What's really driving the value up from a 300 - 500 - 800- stupid money.
> 
> When you say work flow do you mean how many coffees you are making and how fast? Or x grams in x grams out? Single dosing and hopper?


 Grind speed, burr size, torque/Watts requirements - bigger bits, more parts & bigger motors cost more.

I mean 'single dosing vs full hopper/grind on demand'. Though, if you're in a cafe, you don't really want grinder that takes 25s to grind a dose, no matter how pretty/cool/tight distribution it is


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

I am also a newbie, but IHMO, a controlled research experiment done over a period of time with a help of representative population may be required to achieve the intent. It won't be without any shortcomings, though.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> I am also a newbie, but IHMO, a controlled research experiment done over a period of time with a help of representative population may be required to achieve the intent. It won't be without any shortcomings, though.


 Biggest shortcoming would be that it will never happen. If it did, it would be out of date every time new grinder came out...and the loop begins again.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MWJB said:


> Biggest shortcoming would be that it will never happen. If it did, it would be out of date every time new grinder came out...and the loop begins again.


 FWIW = 0!


----------



## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

profesor_historia said:


> jonr2 said:
> 
> 
> > @Tinkstar - if you fancy a bit of a geek out in terms of analysis on grind, have a look at this campaign on kickstarter - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/goat-mug/arco-2-in-1-coffee-grinder/posts
> ...


 Profesor! How many grinders are you buying 😂


----------

