# Removing threaded inserts



## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

So I have some lovely Becote replacements for the standard wooden toggles on my Vesuvius but I have a problem:

I need to replace the threaded insert in the metal part of the toggle, it has an Allen key fitting but I can't grip the toggle well enough to remove the insert.

Any ideas???


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Rubber gloves or something leathery you can wrap around and grip. Worst case.... a vice with soft jaws


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## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

Rubber gloves idea above is great. If you can, then add a leather belt (not one you don't mind damaging) to that, so that you have the rubber to create the grip then the leather to provide a cushion, which can then be gripped in a vice or nutcracker (giving a non-tool option).


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Strap wrench, if not as above. Use a belt (might get wrecked ). Wrap belt around widest part, grip the two ends with a mole grip , pair of pliers , waterpump pliers close to the toggle, use the end of the pliers as a fulcrum to increase grip and give leverage.


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

Right, thanks everyone, I'll give it a go!


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

People are all along the right lines here, basically an oil filter canister strap is very handy, take note J'Dirt.

Jon.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

xpresso said:


> People are all along the right lines here, basically an oil filter canister strap is very handy, take note J'Dirt.
> 
> Jon.


Was thinking one of these may be perfect for the job due to the materials it's made from. Can't say I've ever used one, just seen them for sale while searching for something else.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

xpresso said:


> People are all along the right lines here, basically an oil filter canister strap is very handy, take note J'Dirt.
> 
> Jon.


I've got one..... but it's covered in oil


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

joey24dirt said:


> I've got one..... but it's covered in oil


A blast of brake or carb cleaner will sort that


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> A blast of brake or carb cleaner will sort that


I'm out of that game now so it's also covered in dust 

Anyway OP, plenty to go at there. Awaiting updates


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

ashcroc said:


> Was thinking one of these may be perfect for the job due to the materials it's made from. Can't say I've ever used one, just seen them for sale while searching for something else.


No - There's a better one that only the strap comes into contact with the item applied to, I'll have a peruse and provide a link.

Jon.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

vice with two pieces of softwood make a sandwich - bingo


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

jimbojohn55 said:


> vice with two pieces of softwood make a sandwich - bingo


A workmate.......


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

xpresso said:


> A workmate.......


yes you could get your mate to do it


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## koi (Oct 12, 2014)

What do the new ones look like?


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

Ok, no joy so far. I've tried leather & molegrips but it's gripping hard enough to mark the aluminium while still allowing the knob to turn. I've tried releasing agent on it but it made no difference.

I'll try & get my hands on some rubber, as an improvement over the leather.

With any luck. it'll end up looking like this but I need to replace the threaded inserts with something longer.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

If it is that tight I suspect there may be some locktight on the threads. As an alternative to rubber, go to a local garage and ask them for an old cambelt.

These are rubber and cord compound and very strong. Cut yourself a short length and use in place of the leather. You could make a loop around the

component then take both ends around a couple of times for protection and grip, then use the moles etc as before.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

In the search area at top right ,put in strap wrench D I Y, this may give you Ideas:good:


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

BaggaZee said:


> Ok, no joy so far. I've tried leather & molegrips but it's gripping hard enough to mark the aluminium while still allowing the knob to turn. I've tried releasing agent on it but it made no difference.
> 
> I'll try & get my hands on some rubber, as an improvement over the leather.
> 
> ...


Aluminium ?.

Jon.


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## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

Perhaps try heating it in the oven as the ali will expand more than the steel of the insert. Whatever you then hold it with will need to be suitable for that temperature (not melt, burn etc).

It is possible that it's not a threaded insert in the ali? It could be pressed in, with just the threaded portion outside of the ali. These ones pictured are for plastics, but others could be used in ali. If you know how they are constructed and it is definitely threaded in then that's fine.


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

You could try the type of strap wrench on the left (not the chain type on the right!). Possibly wrap an old bit of inner tube round it first for extra grip.









You could also try heating it first; if the insert is held in by loctite, the heat will break its grip and also, if it is Aluminium, it will expand away from the steel insert due to it having a greater coefficient of expansion.


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

xpresso said:


> Aluminium ?.
> 
> Jon.


Yep, the shiny bit at the end is Aluminium.


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

Thanks Andy & Norvin. I had wondered about heat. The insert has a hex hole so I'm assuming it's threaded all the way in.

I'll give that a go!


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

On items that don't warrant a major meticulous cosmetic appearance a good wallop on the side of the culprit while it's resting on a solid base can break the bonding material holding it, in this case a 4lb hammer would prove not to be the tool, however a bit of 1/4" ply as an interface may do it, it has to be a sharp wallop and not a toffee hammer approach.

Another not expensive method worth a try, wrap some thin rubber or silicon material around it, tighten a good jubilee clip around that and just to add another dimension, grip the whole lot in a vice.

If that fails, file or grind two flats on it and use a wrench or Stillsons.







.

Jon.


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

Cosmetic appearance is definitely important!

Flats are the last option, on the section with reduced diameter, nearest the wood. It could be made to look ok I think. I'm hoping to not find out.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I would go with a vice as has been mentioned before. Get a couple of bits of relatively soft wood either side of it and clamp it on hard - shouldn't damage the metal but will give a very strong grip.


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

I'll give that a go after the heat option, although I'm inclined to think that it'll just spin.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

As a small refinement on the vice and wood, Obtain a small piece of wood and bore a hole through it slightly smaller than the Dia of the knob, saw/ split this in half and place around the knob / insert in vice. This will apply more uniform pressure and give more grip.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Or try putting rubber between the wood and thing your gripping. If you can stick an Alan key in there once it's viced then give it a tap with a hammer - the shock will both help break up any threadlock as well as applying dramatically more pressure in that moment without it being able to spin.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Heat about 200C or more might help. Sometimes thread locking compounds are often used and that is enough to seriously weaken them.

Joey might like to know that using superglue to hold bits in place for light turning isn't unusual and heat is needed to get them off again.

Pretty sure a hot air gun will do that if it's the problem.

Those amazon strap wrenches can work out but need a lot of tension to get them to grip - not always easy to do.

John

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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

Success (sort of)!

The combination of heat, a rubber strap (don't ask), molegrips & an allen key did the job but not without marking 2 out of 3 of the aluminium knobs. I'll attempt to improve this with some judicious filing in due course. On the plus side, the threaded inserts are long enough if I don't insert them so far into the aluminium part.









In the meantime, I have another problem. I can't remove the wooden parts from the water & steam toggles. Again, inexplicably, these appear to have been threadlocked onto the toggle. No problem I thought, I'll use the soft-jaw pliers to take the end-cap off and give the toggles some grease whilst I'm in there.

Absolutely no chance of budging this. I'm assuming this has been threadlocked too, preventing basic maintenance!









Any ideas? The toggles themselves rotate so there's no purchase without removing them and the whole machine won't fit in the oven (joke)!


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Long nose mole grips with rubber to protect the shaft.... then lots of praying to the coffee machine gods


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I would imagine your parts are either

A- stainless steel

Or

B - chrome plated brass.

Very unlikely to be aluminium I would have thought.

If they are plated brass then trying to sand away the marks will mean you have to have the replated, if they are stainless then go for it. But be aware getting a mirror finish back on them is a fair bit of work - I can advise on the best polishing compounds if you need to do this.

You should be able to tell which by looking down the female thread, plating won't have gotten in there so if it's silver then they are probably stainless.


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

@joey24dirt You may be right but to maintain the toggles I'll need to be able to remove the end-cap too.

Working on mass-produced items (such as motorcycles), this is where an exploded diagram helps avoid terminal mistakes.


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

@Dylan Just the end pieces (part held on by my finger in the below picture) are Aluminium and aren't a mirror finish when seen in the flesh. None of this is ideal of course but I may even have to add a slight bevel to the affected edge. Hoping not!


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

It looks as if the brass insert is bonded to the wood.Do you need the wooden section in the photo ? How do the new components fit ? Onto the brass

or directly onto the valve spindle insert ? View of new components.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Well I take it all back!

Alu is a lot easier to sand and polish than SS, so a tiny silver lining there!


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

El carajillo said:


> It looks as if the brass insert is bonded to the wood.Do you need the wooden section in the photo ? How do the new components fit ? Onto the brass
> 
> or directly onto the valve spindle insert ? View of new components.


The new wooden components screw directly onto the spindle and the aluminium component then screws into the other end of the threaded insert in the wooden piece. I could butcher the original part but I'd rather keep it in a box if possible.



Dylan said:


> Well I take it all back!
> 
> Alu is a lot easier to sand and polish than SS, so a tiny silver lining there!


Very pleased to hear that about aluminium!


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Puller to remove wooden knob. Insert a short bolt into the brass insert for the puller to work against. Use a washer with the inside diameter of the wooden knob (with the side cut out) and apply the puller to the cut washer. I presume the brass insert is threaded onto the valve spindle and will need unscrewing (carefully holding the spindle )


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

El carajillo said:


> Puller to remove wooden knob. Insert a short bolt into the brass insert for the puller to work against. Use a washer with the inside diameter of the wooden knob (with the side cut out) and apply the puller to the cut washer. I presume the brass insert is threaded onto the valve spindle and will need unscrewing (carefully holding the spindle )
> 
> View attachment 35780
> View attachment 35781





El carajillo said:


> Puller to remove wooden knob. Insert a short bolt into the brass insert for the puller to work against. Use a washer with the inside diameter of the wooden knob (with the side cut out) and apply the puller to the cut washer. I presume the brass insert is threaded onto the valve spindle and will need unscrewing (carefully holding the spindle )
> 
> View attachment 35780
> View attachment 35781


It took me a few attempts to get my head around that but I think I have it. The problem is that the brass insert is attached to the machine by the spindle, which rotates freely in the end-cap attached to the machine. This method will give me purchase on the knob but the spindle still rotates in the end-cap. Ignoring the wood for a moment, the challenge is to get this brass insert to unscrew from the spindle. To my mind this can only be done by removing the end-cap (highly polished chrome and refusing to budge a mm).


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Does the retaining cap for the toggle have flats or is it round (difficult to tell from photo) if flats ,what is the dimension across the flats ?no suitable spanner ?. It will require one on the retainer and one on where it attaches to the machine.

If the sizes are slack for standard spanners two large quality adjustable tightened firmly may be a better option.

Even with the retainer removed you will still need to grip the toggle shaft to release the brass sleeve ?

As electricians tape and masking tape is too soft for protection, use two slivers from an old credit card for protection between the adjustable spanners and the chrome nuts.


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## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

How prepared are you to go radical?

The existing knob (plastic?) would be destroyed in this. Suitably mask the rest of the machine (paper, tape, and in the case of the chrome bits nearby cover in duct tape). Take a junior hacksaw blade and wrap one end of it with a few layers of duct tape (unless you have a holder the blade). Cut the existing knob and brass insert along the length of the shaft.

If you have a mini-drill you could do it with that, but there's more risk of a slip causing damage to another component. You don't have to cut into the shaft to which the knob is attached, once you reach the top of the threads it will probably release the tension that secures the threads, and it will then turn-off with little resistance.

Slightly less radical: Do similar to the above, but once the existing knob is free of the brass insert (still attached to the machine) use a small gas blowtorch to heat the brass insert which will expand and the threadlock release. less radical in that there's less cutting of metal, but you'd need a gar blowtorch.


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

There are flats but I've been unable to shift it using a soft-jaw spanner. I could (reluctantly) live with destroying the original wooden/brass piece but ultimately I think I need to remove the cap (at some point I'll need to grease the toggle).










When I try to remove it, the whole steam arm starts to unscrew from the body.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Hmmmm - I'm assuming you can brace the steam arm with the nut at the back... however I would have thought getting it loose would require impact - and impact needs a solid connection which would more than likely damage the chrome.

Have you tried heating up the end piece your trying to remove? Chrome can take very high temps - over 400c, so if you can heat it with a heat gun or the like it may loosen enough to remove - be careful you dont melt your soft spanner however. I also dont know if the Chrome can discolour under heat from a heat gun... Chrome plating is used on exhausts so one would think not but you definitely dont want to ruin the look of the machine.


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

I'm away this week so will revisit when I get back. I don't fancy taking a blowtorch to it, but what I may have to do is remove it from the machine (it unscrews from the body)and heat in the oven. I just need to make sure that there are no plastic or rubber components in there.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

There will be a rubber seal/ seat for water /steam flow also there may be nylon seats for the seat for the lever.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Treat yourself to a hot air gun but watch you don't burn the wood. If the brass insert in the wood is threadlocked to a stud a soldering iron could be used to get the brass hot.

When you put it all back together you may find it best to use thread lock again to stop it coming apart.

This is a very low torque resistant one.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Loctite-Sc...4&sr=8-21&keywords=thread+lock&tag=cfukweb-21

This one is a very low torque resistant onehttps://www.amazon.co.uk/Loctite-Screwlock-Controlled-Torque-10ml/dp/B002T8YLLK/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1533632364&sr=8-21&keywords=thread+lock

Or a small dab of this one

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everbuild-EVBTHRED10-Threadlock-Super-Glue/dp/B0012RCYAO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1533632269&sr=8-1&keywords=thread+lock

:secret:I've never used that one but have used a number of Everbuild items lately and it's all been good stuff. These and superglue etc last for years if the nozzle it kept clear by sucking air back into the bottle nozzle up. One way is to squeeze a drop out to where ever it's going, keep the bottle squeezed, point nozzle up and then release the squeeze plus maybe a couple of squeezes and releases.







My son wrecked a rather expensive bottle of superglue recently.

If your scratches are shallow on aluminium not sure I would use a file. Use wet and dry or emery cloth with plenty of soapy water. Then reduce the grade and finally use brasso or something like that.

John

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Which bits exactly are you trying to remove and how.., there is no threadlocker and the part of my valve that holds the mechanism, I only screw in finger tight? Be careful if it twists, you don't gall the front panel.



BaggaZee said:


> There are flats but I've been unable to shift it using a soft-jaw spanner. I could (reluctantly) live with destroying the original wooden/brass piece but ultimately I think I need to remove the cap (at some point I'll need to grease the toggle).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

If threadlocked and a hot air gun is around you might be able to loosen the wooden part by putting say a 70mm odd long mm bolt in the threaded hole and heating that with the gun.

If the wooden knob is just tight the type of rubber strap wrench linked to earlier may help and wont mark. Try using it across the large diameter. You could also use the rubber with moles or what ever.

Pump pliers may be better for griping round things than mole grips. Just like those they will mark but a lot of pressure and torque can be applied with 300mm or maybe even longer ones.







Unless you have some rather large mole grips that is but they may grip better anyway - depends on the shape of the jaws.

And yes as DaveC mentioned make sure you grip somewhere else as well.

John

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Guys, just stop and back up a bit .....let's be clear what problems remain and what the objective is. There are always more than 1 way to skin a cat. Those alu knobs for example, I probably could have got a handle placed in the box of the beta Minima machine for minimal money and posted them out. There may be lots of things that can be done to make this very easy. However I'm not totally clear on what's going on.

It might even be that anyone who buys a Minima beta can have some extra knobs and other bits put in for him and then post them on......I just need to find out what's going on. I say this because below is my steam valve, knob n stuff, undone in seconds and only done finger tight. As you can see the lubing is no problem, as the ball bit with the stem just pops out, the rest of the inside of the valve pulls out of the bit left in the machine and the knob n stuff comes off easy. Now if they are threadlocking bits on...I need to let them know to stop, but certain bits won't be thread locked. Now I'm going to pop downstairs for 10 seconds and put it all back.









P.S I should add that the top part of the valve only needs to be screwed in finger tight, how hard it is screwed in plays absolutely no part in sealing the valve....In this commercial valve design, water does not pass the plunger inside and hence the ball at the stem and the joint does not need to be watertight, just screwed fully home.


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

Hi Dave,

The remaining issue is that I can't remove the cap holding the stem & ball (top in your picture). I would have expected this to be easy to remove, so I can grease the ball, but it's not shifting. Finger tight it is not.

As I've encountered threadlock everywhere else, I'm assuming it's been used here too.

Once I do get this removed, I'm really hoping that the wooden bit isn't threadlocked onto the spigot.

Just as an FYI, the threaded insert in my aluminium knob is much shorter than on yours, hence not fitting the new bits from Chris' Coffee. They've been aware of this and say the design changed at some point. This is why I had to remove those (in the end, they are long enough if not inserted so far, but it's still far enough given their function).


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

If you want a longer threaded inset, buy a short length of correct size / all-thread and cut to required length. Cut a slot in the end for a screwdriver.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

El carajillo said:


> If you want a longer threaded inset, buy a short length of correct size / all-thread and cut to required length. Cut a slot in the end for a screwdriver.


Put 2 nuts on & cut between for a straight edge. Taking the nut off will also cause the thread to be aligned properly.


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

After a few weeks away, I've finally done it! There was no threadlock, I don't know what changed, other than some time off allowed the machine to cool fully? Doesn't sound right but hey-ho.

Finally looking as amazing as it should!


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Looks great. Glad you got sorted in the end


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

BaggaZee said:


> After a few weeks away, I've finally done it! There was no threadlock, I don't know what changed, other than some time off allowed the machine to cool fully? Doesn't sound right but hey-ho.
> 
> Finally looking as amazing as it should!


Maybe you were turning it the wrong way?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Look really nice, love the subtle grain


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