# Flat white



## Corvid (Aug 7, 2014)

I'm interested to know, that when people with espresso machines, talk about a flat white, how they go about making one?


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

Corvid said:


> I'm interested to know, that when people with espresso machines, talk about a flat white, how they go about making one?


Flat White = Updosed espresso shot and steamed milk in a 5/6oz cup.


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## elonii (Jun 24, 2015)

Having just served 8 years in the most famous of all penal colonies, my heart is full of regret at no longer being able to breeze into any coffee shop and order one of these.

I'm not an extreme coffee science freak and very poor at exact technique descriptions, but I'll try to give a vague idea of my morning ritual. There's also lots of argument about what constitutes a decent flat white.

Double ristretto shot with gorgeous thick crema, in a small-ish cup, for me around 200ml. The star of the show is the milk which should be beautifully shiny and fluid in texture once done. I tend to allow a small amount of air into the milk at the start then just stretch it until its at the right temperature.

If I end up with a high sheen, velvety textured drink, with lovely movement, and no big air bubbles - I'm a happy camper. If I really get it right I should taste it and go "hell yes!!".

That probably makes no sense, but I tried


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Flat white in my house is either a split pour (EK) or double shot (Clima Pro) in a 5 or 6oz cup with steamed milk with a thin head of microfoam


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Flat white in my house is either a split pour (EK) or double shot (Clima Pro) in a 5 or 6oz cup with steamed milk with a thin head of microfoam


and trademark Jeebsy's Tulip on top?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Beanosaurus said:


> and trademark Jeebsy's Tulip on top?


That cackhanded, mangled attempt at a tulip aye, although have been branching out with rosettas a bit recently


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

I use a double shot and some randomly foamy steamed milk.

(The key difference between this, my version of a latte, and my version of a cappuccino - is that I call this a 'flat white' )


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

Simply because I'm too tight to keep too many sizes of cups about and most people in my house wanted a less intense coffee milk drink, I use 8oz Inker Luna cups. A nice double ristretto into that with milk which looks like shiny wet emulsion paint (since upping my steam boiler to 137degrees C this has been easier). Very little air in it, just until its body temp and then swirl it until its the right temp. I then dump the milk on top of the ristretto while waving the jug like the French army waving a flag of surrender and its done.

Tastes very nice looks like a Jackson Pollack painting in shades of beige.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I got the scorn of a co-worker recently when I said a latte was basically a big flat white


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

jeebsy said:


> I got the scorn of a co-worker recently when I said a latte was basically a big flat white


Not far off.

If I ever get a coffee from a place that doesn't do flat whites its always "can I have a latte, but only half the milk and an extra shot please". Ordering a coffee from said places is always a stupid mistake, but I never learn.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

I just throw some milk into an espresso, innit


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## truegrace (Jan 29, 2014)

This apparently according to Stafford services, and it was about 2000 degrees (maybe a slight exaggeration!)


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Mine are called or set out to become a 5oz flat white until I've made it and then realise I've made another cappacino, which is fine as I don't mind a cappuccino at all......


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

The key is the milk. You don't really stretch by much. I find having powerful steam really helps get the texture right.


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Yeah that's exactly my prob Spaz, I tend to go into a froth frenzy....


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I've forgotten what machine you use. I think it does help to have three or four really strong jets.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

I'm the same sk8, sometimes the milk is perfect others it's a capp, still drink it though Still can't stomach espressos but got some nice beans from Coffee Compass just now.


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Oh my milky ones are secondary Manx dude I am espresso out and out really, bloody love them and spend a huge amount of time devoted to trying to find a sweet spot dialling them mostly cause I'm a bit crap. Anything milk comes after that and is usually chucked through on same setting for that bean and if later and a decaf which ever it is that bean goes through for a cappa at same setting as milk can be quite forgiving.

Though saying that the latest decaf I have actually makes a passable spro something I don't usually do with decaf. They are late night in milk generally.



Spazbarista said:


> I've forgotten what machine you use. I think it does help to have three or four really strong jets.


A lowly Classic Spaz hahaha one jet, new boy entry level low skills but the SJ grinder is opening up my game some for sure.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

The texture of my milk improved when I upped the steam boiler temp. That made a huge difference. If you have the facility to do that, I would really recommend that you try it. Just a couple of seconds of the cricket chirping and then the rest is the swirl.

If only I could pour it now.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

Motorway services "coffee?" If I need a caffeine jolt when on the motorway its a Redbull these days. I am ruined for coffee out of the house or selected coffee shops. I notice the manky milk jugs, the resteamed milk, the shots that only take 10 seconds and the list goes on.

Maybe at that really nice services in Cumbria, just before you get to Scotland but nowhere else now.



truegrace said:


> This apparently according to Stafford services, and it was about 2000 degrees (maybe a slight exaggeration!)


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

I popped into a coffee shop/restaurant the other day round about lunch time and asked for a flat white for me and a green tea for Mrs D... (Yes sir, No problem I'll bring them over to you)...

A few minutes later she turned up at the table with a little tray upon which was:

A teapot, a teacup and saucer and a small jug of milk...

Mrs D and I looked at each other thinking WTF! You don't serve milk with green tea....

The waitress obviously didn't spot our quizzical looks and went away..

returning a few moments later with another tray upon which was....

A pretty large cup and saucer filled with....... black coffee!!!

I said "Excuse me I ordered a flat white? (Thinking *WTF* is that?!?!?)"

The waitress calmly gestured at the jug on the tea tray and said "Is that enough milk?"

I (unite calmly I thought) said "What do you call a flat white?"

Her reply "Isn't it an americano with milk?"

I mention this purely in answer to the OP... as the perfect example of how *NOT* to make a flat white!!

On a separate note I popped into RAVE again in the week and had a wonderful flat white which had milk as smooth as the proverbial baby's butt!!!


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Yeah I've had a similar experience. On the menu: flat white. "Can I have a flat white please?" I ask. "A white coffee" she replies. "No, a flat white" I say. "What's that?" she asks. I explain and she offers to make me a latte instead - which I went with for ease!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Where as most coffee (good, bad or meh) can be hidden in milk in single shot cappuccinos and double 'bucket' lattes, the flat white leaves nowhere to hide. To pull it off you really need to use the right coffee, pull the shot very well and then to top it all off get the milk spot on. Enough foam depth to pour art but not so deep it over concentrates the coffee to milk balance in the cup.


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## truegrace (Jan 29, 2014)

It had the potential to be good, milk jug was rinsed out before use, temp was checked with the hand on the jug, yet it was still half as hot as the sun and had more bubbles than a wispa!


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

You know you are safe asking for a flat white if the shop displays cortado , when you see this you know they know what coffee drinks are, not many do though


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

ridland said:


> The texture of my milk improved when I upped the steam boiler temp. That made a huge difference. If you have the facility to do that, I would really recommend that you try it. Just a couple of seconds of the cricket chirping and then the rest is the swirl.
> 
> If only I could pour it now.


Funny old thing I've just turned mine down from 1.4 to 1.2 bar, I now feel ir gives me more time to stretch etc.


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## truegrace (Jan 29, 2014)

Unless its a costa!


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## Obsy (May 21, 2012)

Costa have a cortado on their menu as well as a flat white. Can't drink either of them but as Gary says, their lattes hide the meh coffee so it's drinkable. Unfortunately to get a truly decent coffee from where I live means travelling an hour, unless a fellow smoggie knows of somewhere hidden I've not tried.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Never been in one or a Starbucks TBH so didn't know that, makes my assumptions fecking useless


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## truegrace (Jan 29, 2014)

There is a few Costas I have had a nice (maybe drinkable!) flattie in, but only from one barista is both who does actually care about what he makes.

its a shame how the 'nations favorite coffeeshop' cant make a decent coffee, and has such a bad name by people that actually know what their drinking.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

I also ask how big the cup is now before ordering a flat white, if they lift up a bucket I say no thanks


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

I wish I could make one. I've got a 20oz stainless steel pitcher sitting at the post office to pick up tomorrow to try, but I can't seem to do anything with my classic other than make hot milk. I certainly wouldn't say it was steamed and there is never any trace of foam. It doesn't affect me directly, as I only drink espresso but obviously guests want milk based drinks and it seems such a waste of a good shot to just dump some hot milk on it. Presentation also looks cack.

Also, what's the difference between a flat white and a piccolo?


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## Obsy (May 21, 2012)

The problem I find with their flat white is the beans are far too dark for my liking and the shots are always bitter tasting. They press a button on the machine and off it goes - I've seen some extractions that blonde very early on but the machine is programme to extract for a set amount of time. They have a different portafilter for flat whites that some baristas don't use. The milk can be textured well for art but often is heated to 75+ degrees. I blame all the people asking for their double shot, skinny mocha latte extra hot!

They have a limited edition blend at the moment, called Old Paradise Street No 7 which is better IMO than their standard Mocha Italia. But I still think I can produce better on my Classic with cracking fresh beans from Hasbean's #SSSSS and I'm a noob.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

mremanxx said:


> I also ask how big the cup is now before ordering a flat white, if they lift up a bucket I say no thanks


I do the same with espresso recipes, if they reply with 19/30 I ask for tea


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

19g in, 30g out you say no?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

risky said:


> Also, what's the difference between a flat white and a piccolo?


Piccolo is served in a small glass. Ive been served them 3-4oz


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I do a 4oz piccolo on the stall. Pretty much the first thing everyone says after looking at the board is 'What's a piccolo?' Small flat white is probably a better description than my usual waffle, but then if someone asks about a latte it won't look very good


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

mremanxx said:


> You know you are safe asking for a flat white if the shop displays cortado , when you see this you know they know what coffee drinks are, not many do though


Used to drink cortado in Spain 30 years ago, bit different now though eh?


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> I do a 4oz piccolo on the stall. Pretty much the first thing everyone says after looking at the board is 'What's a piccolo?' Small flat white is probably a better description than my usual waffle, but then if someone asks about a latte it won't look very good


So what's the accepted difference between a cortado & a piccolo now? I lose track


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

oursus said:


> So what's the accepted difference between a cortado & a piccolo now? I lose track


The continent you're on


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> The continent


Ah... Makes sense, to my mind, one was Spanish, the other Italian, the Spanish always seemed to scald the milk (but then that could have just been the skanky cafes - probably more interested in the bocadillo Serrano back then)


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

I have found I quite like a cortado after trying a few when out and want a couple glasses/cups between my espresso and 5oz now to have the option at home.

Which side of a cortado size wise is a piccolo, larger or smaller?

Edit: Hmmmm just been looking up and appears the piccolo is more milk, larger.

Think I will stick with the cortado receptical hunt.....there is also the possibility of trying this split shot thing that I've seen a few on here doing, maybe up dose and making a spro and a smaller spro cup cortado that sounds quite appealing......


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

I thought that a true cortado( portugese in origin) is an espresso with a little hot milk that you add, or "cut" the coffee with, as cortado means cut. A lot smaller than a piccolo. I like them as the small amount of milk just takes away the bitterness from the espresso. I know I'm a big girls blouse


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## Colio07 (Mar 9, 2015)

My sense is that the accepted definition of a flat white = double shot espresso + microfoam milk in a 5-6oz. (~160ml) cup.

Cortado / piccolo definitions somewhat more variable, I think, but (I think??) essentially both espresso and microfoam milk in 3-4oz. cups (or glasses)...


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)




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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> 19g in, 30g out you say no?


Yeah - old school! (Tbh if I don't see a good grinder I don't bother even asking haha)

--

Noble Esp in London changed the word "piccolo" to "cortado" and everybody started ordering it - know your market I guess?


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

mremanxx said:


> I thought that a true cortado( portugese in origin) is an espresso with a little hot milk that you add, or "cut" the coffee with, as cortado means cut. A lot smaller than a piccolo. I like them as the small amount of milk just takes away the bitterness from the espresso. I know I'm a big girls blouse


Roundabout half & half mate, usually -cortado is Spanish tho...


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

oursus said:


> Roundabout half & half mate, usually -cortado is Spanish tho...


My gran used to make a dumb joke about a reticent man feeling ill after drinking a short coffee with off milk: shy, Ill, short & off are all cortado apparently! (Probably funnier in Spanish)


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

It does seem to be very confused shop to shop as to what is what with piccolo to cortado. It seems half the ones I see maybe more look more on par with a piccolo from all your desciptions

As for taking the edge or bitter away from the espresso not looking to do that just treat it as a different drink entirely.

You drink what you like and if you like it with a little cut of milk just do it no excuses needed but blouses might get a snigger if worn lol

I have also done the spot a decent grinder in places before, oh ok I'll go in there and been served a shocking excuse for a cup.

Edit: I just served my partner a lovely 5oz flat white/cappa with quite a light caramel bean in milk. I got very ungratefully responses of to strong, I need it in more milk and just a single shot etc. It tasted beautiful to me. I was or am trying to educate her but she just wants a massive cappa in which in my opinion the flavours become lost but I suppose it is her who has to drink it.......

The reason I mention this is to do with the general public and their coffee tastes and perhaps the reason a lot of these flat white's are served as a larger looking latte type drink or a so called cortado looks more like a larger piccolo as shops are catering to more of the mass market with it being 'lighter' or 'easier' on the mouth or in taste for want of a better description.

I don't know but it does seem to be a frustrating situation to be in when you go out looking for a nice small flat white or cortado. A straight espresso is a lot easier to order, not really open to personal interpretation and is at the end of the day either a good or a bad one (some home made bad ones drinkable, of which I am quite good at).


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Sk8-bizarre said:


> It does seem to be very confused shop to shop as to what is what with piccolo to cortado. It seems half the ones I see maybe more look more on par with a piccolo from all your desciptions
> 
> As for taking the edge or bitter away from the espresso not looking to do that just treat it as a different drink entirely.
> 
> ...


Have to say it's always been a rarity for me to buy coffee while out, getting more & more common tho, it's only 15 yrs ago that I pretty well used to regard the UK as a tea-only zone










Dialling in from










To









Not wasting it though.


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

I think I am a bit spoilt really being just outside Bristol and Bath each of which are home to more than one good place for a decent espresso.

Plenty of others in both that aren't though I imagine......

It's the milk drinks where I get confused as to what's what but don't mind a 'small' flat white or cappuccino and it appears a cortado as opposed to a piccolo is my preferred after following this thread and learning a bit more.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Is it Small St that has the short stocky guy and the skinny hipster beardy guy with glasses manning a light blue La Marzocco?

Every time I've been in there the flat whites have been stunning.


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Light blue one yeah, first time in there last Monday had an espresso, very nice.

If your in that area I had just walked over from Baristas ten mins away, over the Bristol bridge and well worth a visit. I was on a tasting tour and hit two shops new to me in a half hour then headed home fully charged.


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## roaringboy (Jun 14, 2014)

In my house it's a double espresso or ristretto (depending on bean) topped with steamed milk in a 6oz cup.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Just to add to this piccolo/cortado thing: I make a piccolo in a 4 oz glass with a double ristretto and about 3 oz milk and a full double shot with roughly equal milk for a cortado.


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## Rompie (Apr 18, 2015)

Had a lengthy chat with a Spanish girl at work the other day about Cortados. I made her one of ours (double espresso in 4oz cup filled nearly to the top with steamed milk) and she said it was probably too milky. She was trying to explain, I think, that a Cortado was a silky milk version of a Macchiato with the milk just being there to take the edge off the espresso slightly. Makes sense to me.


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## twotone (Jan 13, 2015)

Cortado is half and half, so if your pulling a 34g shot then put 34g of milk into the cup.

I go to Andalucia every summer and the cortados there are almost universally excellent no matter where you buy one.

Cost is about a euro btw.

The name of the service station on the M6 before Scotland is Westmoreland services, been in there too many times to mention at all times of the day and night too, very good service station with decent food, never buy coffee though always tea in saying that there are some decent costa machines in the various M6 services both north and south bound.

The Yorkshire Maid on the A1 is very good for tea btw.

Getting back to cortados my son tells me that espresso & condensed milk with some steamed milk on the top is the way that some Spanish folk make them, the Spanish do love condensed milk so maybe some truth in that, anyone ever tried condensed milk and espresso?


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Condensed milk will improve most things


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## Rompie (Apr 18, 2015)

Tried cold brew coffee with condensed milk the other day as a dessert experiment. Was delish


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## twotone (Jan 13, 2015)

fluffles said:


> Condensed milk will improve most things


Well I've just had one and it was nice bit too sweet for me though, Coffee Compass Gusto Gold Blend 17g>34g @ 35 secs with about 35g of condensed milk.

Calorie count is quite high with condensed milk though 35g is about the same for 200g of skimmed milk.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Was just thinking I need to make a cold brew, I might be tempted to get some condensed milk as well then...Amazing the things you can see about (hear isn't quite right ) on here.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

twotone said:


> in saying that there are some decent costa machines in the various M6 services both north and south bound.


I'm glad someone else noticed this, those costa machines really know their stuff. The northbound one was telling me he's been out to origin a few times and is a really sound machine, spent some time going over his recipes. We had a good old chat but when i went to shake hands at the end he blanked me. Latte art could use a bit of work too.


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Double shot into a 5oz add steamed milk which inconsistency of leaves me with a flat white or cappa. Never sure which and can't predict not knowing which either technically is.

Very possibly slightly better than the Costa machine though the latte art on par and I probably have a colder exterior.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I'm really trying to shoehorn a HAL 9000 quote in right now


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

: Look Jeebsy I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over.


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## johnnygee04 (Mar 16, 2015)

Most of our drinks are flat white as my missus doesn't like froth on top, just a bit of foam. As we drink our coffee from tankard sized mugs, the double shot is inevitably diluted with more milk than it deserves.

I saw that condensed milk got a mention, so I'll add that I occasionally enjoy a splash of this in my coffee from the moka pot at work and it tastes really good!


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

twotone said:


> Cortado is half and half, so if your pulling a 34g shot then put 34g of milk into the cup.
> 
> I go to Andalucia every summer and the cortados there are almost universally excellent no matter where you buy one.
> 
> ...


Yep, yep & yep... Spent a bit of time in Andalusia & further north. The cortados tend to just be a half sized cafe con leche, roughly half & half to 1:2 coffee:milk. There's a sweeter version which I always thought had dulce de leche in it, could be wrong, as really not to my taste. Going back a few yrs tho, cafe con leche often was served with scalded milk, it seemed to be the norm, so a cortado was a way of cutting down on that, normally followed with a trinaranjus, in that funny little bottle!


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Rompie said:


> Tried cold brew coffee with condensed milk the other day as a dessert experiment. Was delish


I haven't managed to make a cold brew to my satisfaction yet... Anyone have any methods to share?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

oursus said:


> I haven't managed to make a cold brew to my satisfaction yet... Anyone have any methods to share?


A few other threads kicking about for that, including http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=24785


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## Taff (May 5, 2015)

Thought I'd resurrect this.. If i'm having a milky drink I generally prefer a shot of whatever I'm pulling so ~45g in a 4oz cup. Wondering what to call this.. small flat white? Cortado?

To me the same shot in one of our 6oz cups is more of a cappa (ie bigger than a flat white) - I'm coming around more to the convention that the naming difference is more about the strength and drink size than the milk type.. am I wrong?!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Honestly i really wouldn't worry ..if it tastes good that's what counts

Alot of the definition between flat white > capp> latte will be around amount of milk texture /foam

But if you likes it then call it what you want ( I call my drinks Harry )...

I would suspect 9/10 " flat whites" on the forum would be different , don't really matter in the end


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

elonii said:


> Having just served 8 years in the most famous of all penal colonies,


great work


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## Taff (May 5, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Honestly i really wouldn't worry ..if it tastes good that's what counts
> 
> Alot of the definition between flat white > capp> latte will be around amount of milk texture /foam
> 
> ...


I'm not overly bothered but wondered if the definitions were more based on milk texture or volume or both as it seems to change daily. Think i'll stick to what I know as defined in Mr Rao and Mr. Hoffmans books.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Taff said:


> I'm not overly bothered but wondered if the definitions were more based on milk texture or volume or both as it seems to change daily. Think i'll stick to what I know as defined in Mr Rao and Mr. Hoffmans books.


For what its wortj . For me its milk texture with the caveat that I never drink anything about 6 oz drink...


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## Taff (May 5, 2015)

About? Above? Lol. I think it's a bit of both. First thing they do in the WBC is check the depth of foam so gotta be something in the texture side of it!


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Aren't they also checking to see if the milk and espresso have been combined evenly?


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

elonii said:


> Having just served 8 years in the most famous of all penal colonies





Fevmeister said:


> great work


Great work?


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

Great work on the serving 8 years in the most famous former penal colony


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Fevmeister said:


> Great work on the serving 8 years in the most famous former penal colony


8 years for what though?


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

Do you know the penal institution we are referring to ?


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Fevmeister said:


> Do you know the penal institution we are referring to ?


Fraid not, enlighten me


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)




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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Fair enough


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Took me a minute to catch up when I first saw that!


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