# Upping skills



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

With the current set up I have I'm struggling to see where I can go next in improving quality and consistency; to my palate things vary a bit - but the technique I employ doesn't so much (so far as I'm aware.)

I'm weighing espresso out. Using a fairly consistent grinder I'd imagine. The same beans. Tamping in a set way. Purging the hot hot water.

Is it a case of back to basics - I just want to try to up things further.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

How about a home training session?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Training for sure, your equipment is well up to it


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Try this thread as an example

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?23309-Home-training-with-Gary-****


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

And more:https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?20185-Barista-Lesson-with-5M-Coffee-(aka-Glenn)

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?23361-Training-in-Nottingham

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22203-Home-training-(for-Gaggia-Classic)

but since you live in Kent, this is probably most relevant:

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?20185-Barista-Lesson-with-5M-Coffee-(aka-Glenn)


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Hmm. I've done rather a lot of training over the years! Might tap Glenn up for another session though see if we can iron out some specifics.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Although I have no qualms spending a few quid time is a big challenge. I've two children I didn't have last time Glenn came round! Any further suggestions welcome.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What is it the you feel is lacking in your coffee at the moment?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Consistency. Made a beauty on Friday but some others have just been 'ok'. And I had a bad one.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Second boots here, let us know where you think you have a weakness


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

See above!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok so how does the beauty's differ from the bad ones....different extractions , shot times, where is the imbalance in taste...


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

See this is where I struggle: describing the difference. One tastes good, the other not. I think it's a more bitter flavour, much less definition of flavours. The shot time and yield are fairly consistent. Assume it's distribution and extraction issues or water temp? But not sure.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

jonc said:


> With the current set up I have I'm struggling to see where I can go next in improving quality and consistency; to my palate things vary a bit - but the technique I employ doesn't so much (so far as I'm aware.)
> 
> I'm weighing espresso out. Using a fairly consistent grinder I'd imagine. The same beans. Tamping in a set way. Purging the hot hot water.
> 
> Is it a case of back to basics - I just want to try to up things further.


So, is it mainly about taste and consistency = getting a similar taste every time?

Are you timing it out as well as weighing it (probably)?

What difference do different beans make?

How often do you clean everything (probably regularly)?

What water do you use?

How much coffee do you make in a week (I don't make very much so some of my inconsistency is due to a lack of fluency)?

Are you secretly hoping for the God shot?

I found the book, Coffee Life in Japan by Merry White, particularly interesting on the idea that it is an endless quest to make a better cup of coffee.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Sorry - was writing the above when you and Boots exchanged further thoughts.


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

What machine are you using? (I'm wondering about temperature stability?)


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Scrub that... Just seen your signature. Tell me about your flush routine


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

So its about controlling the variables at hand and ruling out any effect they may be having

Lets start with two controllable ones

Daren has a point about temp, so expand flushing routine

Also i see you say you are weighing espresso out , are you weighing dose in ( +/- .2 gram can make a difference in extractions )


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

When things go a little bit astray it's so easy to keep chop and change things, by doing this you can set yourself into a sort of downward spiral , and find yourself in a position where you can't find any clarity.

You were right in one of your earlier posts , go to the basics , with dosing, weighing and timing your extractions .

and rather than exploring all the variables in one go, concentrate your efforts on only one of the variables .

You have ,by your signature got some nice bits of kit which should make it possible to make a good coffee without too much fuss.

consistancy is the solution to repeatability


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

> *Thecatlinux* If there is no one standing at the bus stop
> 
> is it still called a bus stop ?


This deserves its own Forum...


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

If the bus stops there to let passengers off then indubitably it is a bus stop. Otherwise you'd only be able to get off at a place where someone else wanted to get on. Public transport as wet know it would become an exercise in quantum mechanics, where only cats in boxes could describe the afterlife to us, as they would be both dead (experienced) and alive (to tell us). Not sure what any of this has to do with upping our skills though?! ;-)


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

hotmetal said:


> If the bus stops there to let passengers off then indubitably it is a bus stop. Otherwise you'd only be able to get off at a place where someone else wanted to get on. Public transport as wet know it would become an exercise in quantum mechanics, where only cats in boxes could describe the afterlife to us, as they would be both dead (experienced) and alive (to tell us). Not sure what any of this has to do with upping our skills though?! ;-)


You you might want to start another post ,


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I will let sleeping dogs and Schrödinger's cat lie. I read the entire thread with interest, and then came upon this odd mention of bus stops that caught my pre-caffeinated brain off guard. As you were. I want to see how the OP improves his consistency, as this is one of those things I also suffer from.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm thinking cooling flush could be an issue. This is where I have no rigid regime - any advice for that on a Rocket please? I do weigh in shots but only the first few of a new bean - since the mythos manages this for me and I can make an amazing coffee followed by a crap one I suspect it isn't the dose in - unless the mythos is pony at consistent dosing - and I doubt that.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

If you are aiming for consitancy , you need to weigh in weigh out , presuming the grinder is taking care of things is all very well , but if you don't weigh your output from the grinder how would you know ??


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Cooling flush shouldn't be an issue if you are doing back to back shots


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

hotmetal said:


> I will let sleeping dogs and Schrödinger's cat lie. I read the entire thread with interest, and then came upon this odd mention of bus stops that caught my pre-caffeinated brain off guard. As you were. I want to see how the OP improves his consistency, as this is one of those things I also suffer from.


It's why I suggested it needed its own forum. Back to consistency - I seriously wonder how many people on the Forum could say that they produce consistent after consistent shot - unless you're working in a coffee shop and pulling many, many shots every day. I think we quest after consistency. It';s also factor in upgradeitus - the sense that somewhere there is that piece of kit that is going to make all the difference.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I'm using an R58 and 65E. For a while I didn't bother weighing (and still don't always) but when I start wondering about consistency it is the first thing I start doing. The Mythos is obviously a notch or two above my 65E and I know that the guys in my local Harris & Hoole rely on it to dose accurately, but with the 65E, I find that it doses +/- 0.3g (worst case) which is 'OK' for general use but not tight enough for bang-on consistency without weighing. I find that even .3g is enough to make a small difference. The question then is how much it bothers me or not.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

If you're happy with what's in the cup then it's fine,

IMO weigh input and weigh output , doing one without the other is pointless in the context of trying to improve things.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

As Cat suggests , weighing in and out for a period would help control one variable to see if it helps consistency...

If you remove dose as a variable effecting the taste , then you can explore other avenues...

There was a clip of James Hoffman asking a group of barista's at the Nordic convention who could make the same quality espresso every shot in service

No one put their hand up .....


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Thecatlinux said:


> If you are aiming for consitancy , you need to weigh in weigh out , presuming the grinder is taking care of things is all very well , but if you don't weigh your output from the grinder how would you know ??


I do. But only the first few.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

If you happy with the dosing side of things , breakout the naked and video your extraction so we can have look at your distribution .


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Thecatlinux said:


> Cooling flush shouldn't be an issue if you are doing back to back shots


But for the first one?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Mrboots2u said:


> As Cat suggests , weighing in and out for a period would help control one variable to see if it helps consistency...
> 
> If you remove dose as a variable effecting the taste , then you can explore other avenues...
> 
> ...


Ok thanks all. Will do that - but suspect the issue is elsewhere (I.e. me!)


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

jonc said:


> Ok thanks all. Will do that - but suspect the issue is elsewhere (I.e. me!)





> Keep an open mind and always be asking "how could I do this better". Amazing how often you'll improve when asking yourself that. The scientific approach is always the best approach.


 So says Matt Perger.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

jonc said:


> But for the first one?


My routine when up to temp and idle for more than 20 mins

Draw off 150ml (should be enough to warm your cup)

draw off another 150 ml ( warm another cup or goes to waste)

you are good to go.


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## richn (Apr 27, 2015)

I've been thinking the same, especially since my upgrade to the Verona. I'm finding I get better and more consistent coffee from it but still some inconsistencies. Can anyone recommend London based courses? I've been looking at the barista courses but no idea if they are any good! Looks like Glenn might be the man for the job?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Yes Glenn is defiantly the man for the job


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Thecatlinux said:


> Yes Glenn is defiantly the man for the job


Ah, don't you love autocorrect unless you meant defiantly in the sense that Glenn for example, won't let a bad shot get the better of him - which certainly works.


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## richn (Apr 27, 2015)

Cool, sounds like a few people on here have had some good training from him, does he have a website? I can't find his profile, think I'm being stupid...


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

richn said:


> Cool, sounds like a few people on here have had some good training from him, does he have a website? I can't find his profile, think I'm being stupid...


http://5mcoffee.com

If you do a member search for 'Glenn' you'll definitely find him as he's this forums site owner!


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## Chockymonster (Jan 21, 2013)

Here's his profile!

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/member.php?2-Glenn


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

richn said:


> Cool, sounds like a few people on here have had some good training from him, does he have a website? I can't find his profile, think I'm being stupid...


http://coffeeforums.co.uk









PM me with your number and I will give you a call to discuss

I'm based in Stanmore but mobile throughout London


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## richn (Apr 27, 2015)

Thanks all! Been DIY'ing the houseso I think my brain has turned off. Glenn, I'll drop you a PM.


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## Zimmerman (Mar 19, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> What is it the you feel is lacking in your coffee at the moment?


Just spotted you're in Lancaster, do you do home training? I'm in Penrith.


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