# Price variance on grinders



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I was sitting thinking. I can understand an EK and an R120 being the price they are. I can understand an E10 being dearer than an E8. What I cannot understand is the pricing on Ceados though. The conical is neigh on the same price as the 2 mentioned already....why? Are you paying extra for the quality of components or does it do something I do not know about?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

E37s can be had for £750ish if you shop around. They are expensive from BB (although have noticed they're reduced now, E37s is comparable price to E8)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Few things that tend to influence prices of stuff

Volume ? Price point set by the manufacturer to align with branding and perceived value.

Some things have a RRP that can be knocked down , as Jeebsy suggest.

Margin that retailers wish to achieve ( is it different for lower volume items )

Terms that retailers get - demo models , sale or return , payment required by..

Relationship they have with competitors


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## Doozerless (Apr 3, 2015)

Itchy grinder feet?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Doozerless said:


> Itchy grinder feet?


Not at all. When a retailer buys items, they buy them at a discount from RPP. That is us;ally only influenced by volume discounts. Why should a Ceado be so much higher? jibs, where can you buy an E37S for £750?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

eBay Germany

The group buy


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> eBay Germany
> 
> The group buy


Let me rephrase. Where can you buy a Ceado from a retailer. The group buy was a one off special and ebay is not retail


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Not at all. When a retailer buys items, they buy them at a discount from RPP. That is us;ally only influenced by volume discounts. Why should a Ceado be so much higher? jibs, where can you buy an E37S for £750?


Surely price is influenced by what a manufacturer wants for the product against the demand for the item. You managed to get a mythos for £500 under retail, ceado e92 can be bought for around £1500 on German sites especially with a 1.4 exchange! Compass can be purchased for less, but you have to take the risk on buying overseas with all the cheaper prices. RRP is just that, a recommendation, whether that is the actually price you pay is something completely different, BB do loss leader introductions to get products out there, then rehire the price to somewhere near RRP.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

The seller on eBay is a shop, shops operate on eBay.

Given the Euro rate has fallen since i last checked you could maybe get it even cheaper now.

I don't think the Ceado costs much more than other grinders, question should perhaps be why BB think they can charge so much for it


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Let me rephrase. Where can you buy a Ceado from a retailer. The group buy was a one off special and ebay is not retail


Thee are few German retailers that offer the ceado range fir the same in euros as BB do in pounds


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Not the point I was making. Originally I asked why an E92 was the same price as the EK and R120 when other conicals could be had much cheapet


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Ceado-E37S-Espressomuhle-Kaffeemuhle-Direktmahler-Grind-On-Demand-Espresso-Muhle-/201381446428?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item2ee345031c

Someone on here had a lowball offer accepted on one of these, think it worked out just over £750 shipped


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

And the e92 is £1500


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> And the e92 is £1500


Cheaper than a Coffee Italia Mythos 1


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ceado in the UK, sell through one firm who then sell onto anyone else which creates an artificial price list, so as opposed to point scoring to somehow suggest BB are responsible for the price they try to sell them at is total bollocks. On the Continent, they seem to take a different approach and sell to anyone who wants an account.

Therefore the question is why do Ceado create an artificially high price for the UK


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> ceado in the UK, sell through one firm who then sell onto anyone else which creates an artificial price list, so as opposed to point scoring to somehow suggest BB are responsible for the price they try to sell them at is total bollocks. On the Continent, they seem to take a different approach and sell to anyone who wants an account.
> 
> Therefore the question is why do Ceado create an artificially high price for the UK


Dave it wasn't an unfair question that was proposed by Jeebsy ( all be it a little dryly.... ) . Perhaps answer with a bit more style , less swearing and defensive and we all might live in a happier place / forum

We are not privy to the inner workings of BB like yourself , so queries such as Jeebsy's are bound to happen

Thanks for the info though , if not the manner in which is was provided


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Someone is going to buy another grinder very soon, I can feel it.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I a so tempted to tell you to get lost, politely of course but instead I will thank you.

This is nothing to do with inner workings. Others on here know the score whether they admit it or not.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> Not the point I was making. Originally I asked why an E92 was the same price as the EK and R120 when other conicals could be had much cheapet


You seem to have answered your own question with the comment about the UK sole distributor?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have not answered it at all, merely explained the reason why UK retailers cannot compete. Anyone who thinks an E92 has a similar value, whether artificially inflated or not to an EK or R120 is bonkers


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> ceado in the UK, sell through one firm who then sell onto anyone else which creates an artificial price list, so as opposed to point scoring to somehow suggest BB are responsible for the price they try to sell them at is total bollocks. On the Continent, they seem to take a different approach and sell to anyone who wants an account.
> 
> Therefore the question is why do Ceado create an artificially high price for the UK


Perhaps they don't, perhaps retailers here take a higher percentage, why have prices not changed on a popular site here when the exchange rate has plummeted? I am sure they pay similar prices for equipment as they do in Europe as everyone has to pay in euros


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Who supplies Ceados to the UK?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Perhaps they don't, perhaps retailers here take a higher percentage, why have prices not changed on a popular site here when the exchange rate has plummeted? I am sure they pay similar prices for equipment as they do in Europe as everyone has to pay in euros


Please pay attention! BB do not have an account with Ceado. They have no choice but to buy from a single company within the UK who set the price for retail and dictate the discount. As for the inference to other prices, you have to compare apples with apples and not with oranges. Find another UK based retailer who offers what they do and compare prices. Do not compare them to box shifters who do not invariably carry stock


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Who supplies Ceados to the UK?


Ceado UK unsurprisngly


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Machina Espresso

E37s £1229

E92 £2249

BB

E37S £1295 reduced to £1069

E92 not stocked


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Please pay attention! BB do not have an account with Ceado. They have no choice but to buy from a single company within the UK who set the price for retail and dictate the discount. As for the inference to other prices, you have to compare apples with apples and not with oranges. Find another UK based retailer who offers what they do and compare prices. Do not compare them to box shifters who do not invariably carry stock


They've discounted them now


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> They've discounted them now


discounted or bought at a more reasonable price? They have no stock anyway so it is academic


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Do you know what Ceado UK charge for them?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Do you know what Ceado UK charge for them?


No, other than I know BB were told to go to Ceado UK to buy stock, which is what prompted my original post. Why do Ceado inflate the price of theE92 to equal more or less that of the EK and R120 when it clearly is not in that class and is available at sensible prices in Europe


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

http://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=Ceado_E37S

http://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=Ceado_E92


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Means nothing jeebsy. We all know about Coffee Italia as I have bought there. Invariably, they do not stock items and are just passing boxes on. But, it raises the question as to why the price difference and I suspect it is quite simply the middle man of Ceado UK ripping us good people off


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

A Mythos One retails for £2200, retail on an EK is about that too. if it is Ceado UK just raising prices for the UK then all the more reason to buy one from a Euro box shipper


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Yeah you got to think about the warranty


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

why do people continually seem to want to bring everything back to point scoring against me? buy from where you like but if ceado uk read this, perhaps they will come on and explain why their business model resembles Kirby vacuums.....LOL


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> why do people continually seem to want to bring everything back to point scoring against me? buy from where you like but if ceado uk read this, perhaps they will come on and explain why their business model resembles Kirby vacuums.....LOL


I think you should read your mates Dave if you think others are pont scoring


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> I think you should read your mates Dave if you think others are pont scoring


whats a pont, matey! Sorry if you think I was aiming my comments at you. I was not. I was aiming it in this case at william and jonc who both seem to take delight at any occasion that throws itself up. I cannot complain as I dish it out at times


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> whats a pont, matey!


Point scoring in action



dfk41 said:


> I cannot complain as I dish it out at times


Precisely (so don't!)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am not complaining in the slightest. The point I was making was that whatever topic I bring up, whether it is tone in cheek or serious as this one is, gets sidelined into personal issues. Bring it on if you want.

So, to sum up, jonc

a) whats a pont was not point scoring. Dave and I both use macbook airs and I find my keyboard terrible and between us if you check our posts if you really want to, you will find dozens of typos

b) Where have I complained?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I was trying to keep it in track, albeit not very hard


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> I was trying to keep it in track, albeit not very hard


Good stuff...!Anyway, seems no one really cares and why should they? You can pop on the old inter web and visits lots of European countries and buy from within the European trading mechanism we have all grown to love/hate. What is going to happen when we exit Europe after the referendum!


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> a) whats a pont was not point scoring. Dave and I both use macbook airs and I find my keyboard terrible and between us if you check our posts if you really want to, you will find dozens of typos


I will do that - sounds like a good evening of entertainment.



dfk41 said:


> b) Where have I complained?


Post #34


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## Yes Row (Jan 23, 2013)

This forum sometimes resembles the early days of MSN Messenger when my daughters used it...about 10 years ago as an extention to their playground antics. In the days before smartphones and Facebook

Amusing though


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jonc said:


> I will do that - sounds like a good evening of entertainment.Post #34


Post 34 is not a complaint but a question! If you want a complaint.......


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Yes Row said:


> This forum sometimes resembles the early days of MSN Messenger when my daughters used it...about 10 years ago as an extention to their playground antics. In the days before smartphones and Facebook
> 
> Amusing though


I was thinking just that the other day!


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Why do restaurants charge more money for game than for beef or lamb dishes. Not because it costs more to buy for them, because cost is (often incorrectly) associated with quality and there are always people out there who are happy to spend the money in the belief that they are getting something better.

I believe that correct name is the "Waitrose factor".

In short, Ceado charge more for their kit because market forces allow them to. Whether this is down to differences in quality or just perceived differences is probably best answered by someone who has owned them.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

NickdeBug said:


> Why do restaurants charge more money for game than for beef or lamb dishes. Not because it costs more to buy for them, because cost is (often incorrectly) associated with quality and there are always people out there who are happy to spend the money in the belief that they are getting something better.
> 
> I believe that correct name is the "Waitrose factor".
> 
> In short, Ceado charge more for their kit because market forces allow them to. Whether this is down to differences in quality or just perceived differences is probably best answered by someone who has owned them.


Don't agree! All Ceado are doing is restricting sales in the UK and forcing people to buy abroad. HAs anyone on this forum thought the Ceado brand so good they have rushed out and paid the full UK price?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mahlkonig are waitrose, don't think ceado necessarily have the reputation to charge higher prices and have people pay them yet


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> Don't agree! All Ceado are doing is restricting sales in the UK and forcing people to buy abroad. HAs anyone on this forum thought the Ceado brand so good they have rushed out and paid the full UK price?


This doesn't sound like a deliberate business model. If you are right I can't see them hanging around as a brand in the UK that long. To answer your question though, I seem to remember a couple of people buying the 37s new from Bella Barista.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I am guessing that the target market is the commercial rather than home user sector. How do the lease prices compare (I believe many people choose to lease equipment rather than buy outright)?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Possibly, but it still does not explain the need for the UK operation. Why not set up s franchise for every country then? Why should I pay more for something because j am in the UK when the only variable is transport


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> Possibly, but it still does not explain the need for the UK operation. Why not set up s franchise for every country then? Why should I pay more for something because j am in the UK when the only variable is transport


...and VAT, and business rates, and wages, and utilities...etc etc.

But I agree with you. This doesn't seem to be an isolated case in terms of price difference between UK and the rest of Europe. Good job the strong pound redresses the balance to an extent at the moment.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Possibly, but it still does not explain the need for the UK operation. Why not set up s franchise for every country then? Why should I pay more for something because j am in the UK when the only variable is transport


You don't have to , you have a choice , just not to buy it ...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> You don't have to , you have a choice , just not to buy it ...


boots,thats a stupid reply by your standards.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> boots,thats a stupid reply by your standards.


It was a an attempt at a serious resposte

Your choice is don't buy it , you don't need it, you don't like the price , you have other choices

buy if from abroad , pay over the odds here , or don't buy it

i am tired of your rudeness though passed off as banter


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Boots, sorry mate but ignore me if you like as I am not going to change


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

We can all use Google etc. If UK retailers don't understand that, more fool them. High UK prices tend to be built on fear. Fear of 'No warranty' etc. Ceado would do well to remember this. As would others.

Dave (dfk41) has proved the point. I too have bought from the same supplier and didn't have any problems. Of course there is a risk but life is risky! I'm quite sure there are many other trustworthy European retailers who can give us a deal on grinders.

If you want 'the full service' then go to BB. It's a good business model but maybe they could improve their sourcing to enable them to lower prices?

If you're reasonably knowledgeable and prepared to take a risk, you can save a lot of money at present courtesy of the exchange rate.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rob666 said:


> We can all use Google etc. If UK retailers don't understand that, more fool them. High UK prices tend to be built on fear. Fear of 'No warranty' etc. Ceado would do well to remember this. As would others..


UK high prices are such because we are a very lucrative market. We are not patriotic, and will happily make poor decisions for out home businesses to save a few pounds. UK retailers unfortunately get presented very high prices by some of these companies, which affects the RRP. These companies are then VERY happy to sell to you from other European outlets (inc European box shifters). They manage to get all the publicity in the UK and the appearance of UK support of their products for spares, repair and possibly even warranty. They then sell product via outlets where spares repair and warranty is much more difficult if you're in the UK. They are not stupid and knowingly make these decisions on pricing.

I remember a time when availability of machines and grinders was severely limited within the UK, the few "prosumer" offerings that were available were expensively priced. This has all changed with the appearance of larger UK retailers, plus some where you can actually go and see this stuff....however one wonders if we will ever go back to the bad old days where the ONLY way of bringing new and interesting kit into the country is group buys and imports. Also please be aware that you wouldn't enjoy the range of PID controlled prosumer dual boilers you do had it not been for a certain retailer, a few manufacturers and my involvement with their development.

I guess the market will find it's own level...me I'm not really bothered, my coffee journey has ended......as my machine (s), grinder, and roaster(s) will see me out. I just hope it doesn't move to a less interesting purely commercialised market. Rodney shared my passion for Coffee and it was an interesting time....the roasters, the machines, the grinders, the ideas. I've never had dealings with anyone who had a similar passion and the drive/resources to make things happen.


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

I love what BB does and appreciate what they have done for the UK coffee scene. However, they cannot afford to rest on their laurels. (And from a conversation with Claudette, I think they know this.) They are going to have to be very sharp with their purchasing if they are going to maintain their position as a leading UK retailer, despite their enviable reputation for customer service.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm sure I'm not alone in being prepared to pay a small premium for UK based suppliers offering good service - but the differential in price need to be justifiable.


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

A 'small' premium is the operative. Quite happy to pay that for UK back up and service but not more than, say, 10 - 15%. Any more and I'm prepared to take the small risk of ordering abroad.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

NickdeBug said:


> ...and VAT, and business rates, and wages, and utilities...etc etc.
> 
> But I agree with you. This doesn't seem to be an isolated case in terms of price difference between UK and the rest of Europe. Good job the strong pound redresses the balance to an extent at the moment.


Other countries have to pay those too


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> Other countries have to pay those too


Quite agree. The original post from dfk stated that the only variable was transport. I was just pointing out that there are plenty of other factors which will differ from country to country. The UK is an relatively expensive place to do business. This will certainly have an impact on prices as margins tend to be at least the same.

If a UK seller wants to set up and offer a full service then good luck to them and I think that the premium is often worth it. Other items carry an international warranty and the buyer might as well get the best price they can.

I'm certainly not going to get wrapped up in some kind of brand loyalty love in though. I'm talking in more general terms than the coffee world here, as no coffee equipment retailer is going to lose any sleep over my custom.


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