# Niche Zero Coffee Grinder an introduction



## Niche Coffee (Aug 4, 2017)

Hello from Niche Coffee and thank you for all your comments.

We have started this thread to try to answer your questions.

This is a completely independent self-financed UK project.

*Static*

We have overcome static and grind retention after years of work and development. The grinder has been tested relentlessly over the last year. We consistently only get 0.1g grind retention and have tested this in a wide range of weather conditions. The "how to use" video





 was shot in one take to evidence this.

*Burrs*

We are using hardened steel 63mm conical burrs similar to those used in Mazzer Kony.

*Motor*

We are using a permanent magnet DC motor.

*Hinged lid and no hopper*

This grinder is specifically designed for single dosing up to 50g of coffee beans per batch. Our research has shown that ground coffee goes off in minutes, so you only want to grind the coffee beans you need immediately before you want to make your brew. This was the reasoning behind our design. We have intentionally designed the Niche Grinder with no hopper so you can keep your beans fresh, then just weigh out the required beans you need ground for your recipe, confident that the grind will be as fresh as the beans you use. The lid is a safety feature, so you can only grind when the lid is down. It is clear so you can watch your beans being ground, a feature we like.

*Paint finish*

The paint finish is powder coat which is tough and has remained white and unstained over more than one year's heavy testing with oily coffees.

Look forward to your further questions.


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## Kman10 (Sep 3, 2014)

Is the grind size consistent for great espresso? Is it stepped? It does look great


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

When testing, have you used a variety of beans over a light to dark range, or stuck to mainly one varietal?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Can you get access to the burrs for cleaning? If so, how easy or difficult is it?

When you speak of retention, does the 0.1g figure come from when the grinder was previously clean (e.g: You have opened it up, cleaned the chute and burrs) and then ground the coffee?


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Welcome to the forum, the product looks fantastic and an ideal home grinder, well done.

When will the product be released?

What sort of price bracket?

Do you make the burrs yourselves?


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## Jacko112 (Oct 29, 2015)

Hi, looks a great grinder from what I've seen & read.

With regards to cleaning, is the grind setting lost when removing the top burr set?


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## nufc1 (May 11, 2015)

From an email I received today regarding the grinder, it looks like it's going to be ~£500 with a 30% discount for early adopters


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

nufc1 said:


> From an email I received today regarding the grinder, it looks like it's going to be ~£500 with a 30% discount for early adopters


£500 already 30% off?

Or £350 for early adopters?


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Answered my own question

Tempting


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Another quick question from me. Your website says the oak is interchangeable. Will it launch with a choice of feet/wood panels?


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## Grahamg (Oct 24, 2013)

I've a few questions - it'd no doubt all be put to bed by a bit of hands-on home review time by someone knowledgable, but what the hell, tyre kicking time....

1. Those of us using commercial conicals in a home environment have found it vital to have a decent weight on the beans via heath robinson fudges such as a bag of rice or tube hoppers with a cylindrical weight on. Without this the grind quality is noticeably poorer. Is there an accepted compromise in grind quality as a result of your single dosing approach, or is there some mitigation in elements of the design (i'm thinking slower rotational speed of burrs might help)?

2. With regards to the innards, even at the lower rotational speed the motor presumably needs to still be powerful to deal with tough light roasts beans and also the burr mounted in a very solid arrangement to maintain alignment. One of the 'red flags' for me on the spec sheet is the weight - it may just be my ignorance but I didn't think it would be feasible to get even a compact grinder down to that kind of weight (4.1kg!) without compromising on quality in terms of grind output given the need for decent motor power and a chunky assembly to ensure burrs are rock solid during operation. Is this has been something that has been weighed up during development? What sort of compromises were made?

3. More bluntly - do you believe the product will pass muster under scrutiny by 'proper coffee geeks'? You'll have seen the level of pessimism in the other thread, but if we're a bit more realistic and balanced with regards to the price point and spec, would you expect people with high quality commercial grinders to be swayed by your product?

Personally, I'd accept only a marginally lower grind quality for the benefit of 'domestic-market-friendly' features, and at present don't think anyone could reasonably expect a £500 grinder designed for the consumer market to deliver on that front - I'd be delighted to be proved wrong. If the grind quality is anything less than excellent, I fear coffee geeks won't buy and I can't see those buying cheaper domestic grinders (Sage, Iberital MC2's, Eureka Mignon's etc.) upping their budget to such a significant level given that grinders remain an afterthought for many 'non-geek' consumers.

Thanks in advance,

Graham


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Please, please do a black version. This grinder is generating a lot of interest here, I'm really looking forward to reports from 'the wild'.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Interested to follow this when it lands and see if the static claims are true and if it's something we haven't seen before.


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## CardinalBiggles (Apr 24, 2017)

Good questions. It's all fluff at the moment and not much detail - yet he is looking to collect money/subscriptions and committments to buy.

I expect the prototype in the videos is the only one in existence atm.

I hope it works out well for the guy. The concept is great. Although why there is no PF holder I know not!

After the Sette debacle though, I'm not rushing in. Pioneers get the arrows, settlers get the land. The way the £ is dropping - and more to go yet - sensible pricing might be a challenge


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

CardinalBiggles said:


> Good questions. It's all fluff at the moment and not much detail - yet he is looking to collect money/subscriptions and committments to buy.
> 
> I expect the prototype in the videos is the only one in existence atm.
> 
> ...


I think there are plenty of details provided? The only one not provided I'd perhaps like to see would be motor W.

I think for crowd funded projects, this is not atypical.

Wasn't the Sette W the model plagued by issues? I thought the non-weigh version was OK? Nevertheless, I struggle to see any relationship between these 2 products. There don't appear to be any non-essential features on the Niche to make 'more things to go wrong', just grind adjustment & on/off.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

CardinalBiggles said:


> Good questions. It's all fluff at the moment and not much detail - yet he is looking to collect money/subscriptions and committments to buy.
> 
> I expect the prototype in the videos is the only one in existence atm.
> 
> ...


How else do funding projects work? You only pay if the target is reached, and in exchange you receive a good discount. I believe there are 5 prototypes, all hand built.

There is no need for a pf holder. You grind into the cup, invert your pf, put the cup in and flip over.........this is a British venture so I suspect the price to be pretty stable, but, if you do not wish to rush in, then I hope you do not as that might be foolhardy.......personally, I am going to back it on September 4th......I have owned a few Kenwood products and they have never let me down


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## Ghostrider (Jul 3, 2008)

This is very interesting should it deliver on its design promises and aesthetically very pleasing too. Great questions so far. All I can add is in relation to the availability of replacement burr sets and warranty service. Details of both please.


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## Stevie-heathie (Jun 21, 2017)

Looking forward to reading Niche's responses. Some excellent comments and questions from the cognoscenti . . .

Best

Steve


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

One of the latest posts from @DavecUK (post #75) on this thread https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?39577-Niche-Grinder will answer a large portion of the more common questions. A brilliant write up from @DavecUK and really worth a quick read if interested in the grinder as it is great to have some feedback from another member that has had a hands on experience with the thing!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Rakesh said:


> One of the latest posts from @DavecUK (post #75) on this thread https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?39577-Niche-Grinder will answer a large portion of the more common questions. A brilliant write up from @DavecUK and really worth a quick read if interested in the grinder as it is great to have some feedback from another member that has had a hands on experience with the thing!


This isn't his review. Wait til he has finished testing would be my advice


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I know a few of the basic questions have been answered by @DaveC , but I am just wondering if @Niche Coffee will be in at any point to have a bit of back and forth with the forum about the grinder?

I fully appreciate it may just be that they are pretty hectic getting ready for the Indiegogo launch and questions and answers will have to wait until then, but these threads are dying a but without any info.


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## khampal (Feb 6, 2017)

Yeah I'm also curious when they're going to answer the questions on here.

I think somebody might have already mentioned these, but

Given this is being marketed as a single dosing grinder, what are you doing to minimise popcorning?

What is the range of grind sizes? All the way from french press to turkish?

Any plans for a standalone portafilter holder, or are we forced to use the cup? (Is the cup included?)


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## SteveR (Aug 21, 2017)

The only questions I have is how does the normal distribution of grind size compare to grinders in a similar price bracket, and maybe to ones costing a lot more. If you know this, then questions about motor power, spindle / bearing strength are irrelevant. The other one is the confidence in the measurement of the 0.1g retained ground, and what is the inherent variation in this measurement?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

SteveR said:


> The only questions I have is how does the normal distribution of grind size compare to grinders in a similar price bracket, and maybe to ones costing a lot more. If you know this, then questions about motor power, spindle / bearing strength are irrelevant. The other one is the confidence in the measurement of the 0.1g retained ground, and what is the inherent variation in this measurement?


Price bracket is probably less relevant to distribution than burr design, you can spend nearly 3x as much on a grinder with the same size burrs.

Even if we had details on the distribution, where would we get information, presented in the same convention, from competitors?

@khampal it goes from espresso range to as coarse as you could possibly need. You don't need talc fine to make Turkish coffee, at least ACAR Turkish grinders don't seem to think you do, mine was coarse enough to make drip & Clever Dripper brews at the finest setting.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Price bracket is probably less relevant to distribution than burr design, you can spend nearly 3x as much on a grinder with the same size burrs.
> 
> Even if we had details on the distribution, where would we get information, presented in the same convention, from competitors?
> 
> @khampal it goes from espresso range to as coarse as you could possibly need. You don't need talc fine to make Turkish coffee, at least ACAR Turkish grinders don't seem to think you do, mine was coarse enough to make drip & Clever Dripper brews at the finest setting.


In the cup, how does it fare against those competitors that are 3x the price?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

igm45 said:


> In the cup, how does it fare against those competitors that are 3x the price?


Buy one of each, send them to me and in 6 months I'll have an answer for you 

Seriously though, that depends more on what the operator does in terms of brewing. The grinder just grinds, someone has to set brew parameters & make the drink.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

igm45 said:


> In the cup, how does it fare against those competitors that are 3x the price?


I think this is a very relevant question.

If someone is considering a commercial grinder for home use at over £1000 for no other reason than taste in the cup, and this Niche grinder can get you the same quality for a fraction of the price, with near zero retention, I would have one in a heartbeat. The answer can only come a comparisons from those that have access to both. I'm waiting patiently.


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## slamm (Nov 26, 2016)

Would the non rotating magnetic field of the PMDC motor be key to reducing static and retention, or has it been used before?


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

lake_m said:


> I think this is a very relevant question.
> 
> If someone is considering a commercial grinder for home use at over £1000 for no other reason than taste in the cup, and this Niche grinder can get you the same quality for a fraction of the price, with near zero retention, I would have one in a heartbeat. The answer can only come a comparisons from those that have access to both. I'm waiting patiently.


Don't forget half the size too..


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## gwing (Jul 17, 2017)

igm45 said:


> Don't forget half the size too..


That does depends on how you measure size. If the critical factor is space on the worktop rather than height it probably doesn't have any advantage there.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

gwing said:


> That does depends on how you measure size. If the critical factor is space on the worktop rather than height it probably doesn't have any advantage there.


Height, width, length in mm are published.

Width 122mm

Length 211mm

Height 311mm


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## SteveR (Aug 21, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Price bracket is probably less relevant to distribution than burr design, you can spend nearly 3x as much on a grinder with the same size burrs.
> 
> Even if we had details on the distribution, where would we get information, presented in the same convention, from competitors?
> 
> @khampal it goes from espresso range to as coarse as you could possibly need. You don't need talc fine to make Turkish coffee, at least ACAR Turkish grinders don't seem to think you do, mine was coarse enough to make drip & Clever Dripper brews at the finest setting.


I used the word compare deliberately. It's not too challenging to set up a series of sieves and run through several competitors grinds in a controlled experiment, with the headline we are better than competitor A and competitor B, or we are better than any other grinder on the market under £500 etc etc. I don't know if such a test is already used by anyone who wishes to evaluate and compare the performance of grinders. 5 incremental sieves, and a sample standard deviation calculation is all you'd need to do.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

SteveR said:


> I used the word compare deliberately. It's not too challenging to set up a series of sieves and run through several competitors grinds in a controlled experiment, with the headline we are better than competitor A and competitor B, or we are better than any other grinder on the market under £500 etc etc. I don't know if such a test is already used by anyone who wishes to evaluate and compare the performance of grinders. 5 incremental sieves, and a sample standard deviation calculation is all you'd need to do.


Yes, it is simple to do, you just need the sieves, don't know why you'd need 5? 2 of the desired range will give +/-1sdev, 4 is normal for a given range, 12 would be a full set. Sieves at around £100 each, sieve shaking machine at £3k plus, several grinders at £500-£2K each. You should be able to get it done by this time next week? 

But what happens when they all make a useable grind, with a sdev that doesn't exclude them from making good cups?

What would be a manufacturers incentive to engage in this activity? Even if one of their grinders comes out on top, it might negate other models in the range from customer choice.

How many people buy grinders for the tight distribution, forsaking cost, weight, height, counter space & ease of use? Answer: a handful of people, because most grinders make a typical distribution & most folk have other priorities. If all we cared about was distribution we'd all buy commercial preground & capsules.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I know you alluded to this MWJB but it should be reiterated that tight distribution is not necessarily the be all and end all for grinders.

Its a pretty poor analogy, but; some people prefer a single malt and others prefer a blend.

Having a tight distribution may make for a cup with one distinct flavour, but it may well be boring compared to a grind with a very wide distribution.


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

I think I will be buying this grinder.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dylan said:


> I know you alluded to this MWJB but it should be reiterated that tight distribution is not necessarily the be all and end all for grinders.
> 
> Its a pretty poor analogy, but; some people prefer a single malt and others prefer a blend.
> 
> Having a tight distribution may make for a cup with one distinct flavour, but it may well be boring compared to a grind with a very wide distribution.


I agree it's a poor analogy, I can tell Famous Grouse from Laphroig all day long (but preference is up to the drinker), but I'd struggle to determine 2 grinders with different, yet usable distributions. A distribution is what it is & it changes with setting. An unusually tight distribution for a home grinder may be so rare as to be almost insignificant. Most people don't have the faintest idea where there distribution lies, so I guess it's easy to construct straw men, when there is so little data to draw from. A distribution to make a representative cup doesn't seem to need to be in a very tight range for a lot of methods, one that can't make a decent cup is either from a broken, or an appallingly badly executed design.

I only made a comparison to show that the Niche was ball-park for my typical brewed recipes.

I wouldn't even venture to establish a relationship between distinctiveness and distribution (within typical bounds) specifically. Coffees are still distinctive even when ground on a ceramic hand grinder with a wobbly burr.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Benjijames28 said:


> I think I will be buying this grinder.


Do you realise, with an attitude like that....you make a mockery of any review I write that might get published!


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## SteveR (Aug 21, 2017)

OK, I had assumed that one of the holy grails was to achieve a consistent grain size? Too much variation in particle size leads to funneling? If it isn't that critical, then what are the important attributes of the grind that are influenced by the grinder?

I guess the £3k testing cost is relative to the total budget to design and develop a "breakthrough" product. If there is value in being able to claim that your product has the best performance in its class, then it might be worth the investment. I work in an industry where clients in the food industry have spent orders or magnitude greater than that in being able to validate their (slightly obscure, but nonetheless important to them) product claims. Apart form enjoying good coffee, I'm curious as to what the science is behind the art in making a good brew!


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## SteveR (Aug 21, 2017)

OK, I had assumed that one of the holy grails was to achieve a consistent grain size? Too much variation in particle size leads to funneling? If it isn't that critical, then what are the important attributes of the grind that are influenced by the grinder?

I guess that a ca. £10k testing cost is relative to the total budget to design and develop a "breakthrough" product. If there is value in being able to claim that your product has the best performance in its class, then it might be worth the investment. I work in an industry where clients in the food industry have spent orders or magnitude greater than that in being able to validate their (slightly obscure, but nonetheless important to them) product claims. Apart form enjoying good coffee, I'm curious as to what the science is behind the art in making a good brew!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

SteveR said:


> OK, I had assumed that one of the holy grails was to achieve a consistent grain size? Too much variation in particle size leads to funneling? If it isn't that critical, then what are the important attributes of the grind that are influenced by the grinder?.


"Consistent grain size" is probably the most repeated & also misunderstood phrases with respect to burr grinders - they produce a grind size distribution, rather than a specific grain size. This is totally normal. Funneling? Do you mean channelling? Being too coarse or too fine is much more likely to cause this. The grind size distribution has to be adequate to allow decent cups to be made but also to allow the user to repeat consistent cups.



SteveR said:


> I guess that a ca. £10k testing cost is relative to the total budget to design and develop a "breakthrough" product. If there is value in being able to claim that your product has the best performance in its class, then it might be worth the investment. I work in an industry where clients in the food industry have spent orders or magnitude greater than that in being able to validate their (slightly obscure, but nonetheless important to them) product claims. Apart form enjoying good coffee, I'm curious as to what the science is behind the art in making a good brew!


Manufacturers often do have testing methodologies (sieve shakers and/or laser particle analysis), but specifics about distributions are rarely mentioned in specs. Specs tend to focus more on size, weight, grind speed & burr size/life, the practicalities. Once the coffee is ground you still have a human between that and the finished cup, who can realisethe potential, or snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I'm sure the grinders are expected to function. Making coffee is a process, dial in that process & repeat it to small variances and your drinks come out with corresponding small variances...grind adjustments, maybe brew ratio & dose adjustments should keep you on the straight and narrow.

Apart from cat's preferences on food and cola challenges, a lot of food claims seem to centre more around sugar & fat content, perceived health benefits.


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## SteveR (Aug 21, 2017)

I understand the presumably normal distribution of grind size around a nominal mean (whatever that happens to be for the particular grinder setting). I guess then that "good" grinders are all capable of producing a sufficiently tight spread of ground size that avoids channeling (thanks!), so other factors are more critical, like how much retention there is etc etc. All said, personally I just want something that's compact and does a good enough job with my Classic.


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## Grahamg (Oct 24, 2013)

Benjijames28 said:


> I think I will be buying this grinder.


I am, after selling a monster conical for retention reasons and then spending a year with a good quality 83mm flat burr grinder, I've realised that my preference is very much for conicals (regardless of roast). This is to me the only viable option and I don't care if it comes up a bit short vs. many forumites high expectations considering the price.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I'm not sure I would associate channeling with 'tight' (or lack thereof) grind distribution.

You can quite happily pull a shot of espresso with little to no channeling from an Iberital MC2 (with some in basket distribution work), but suffer channeling badly with an EK43.

If your grinder is producing boulders in with its fine espresso grind resulting in channeling there is something wrong with it, no matter what price you paid.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dylan said:


> If your grinder is producing boulders in with its fine espresso grind resulting in channeling there is something wrong with it, no matter what price you paid.


Most definitions of "fines" & "boulders" that we see on forums/the net are the thoughts of individuals & no obvious universal definition, seemingly just things that people say. The fines peak in espresso is around 50um & that seems pretty consistent & necessary.

All grinders produce particles outside of 2 sdevs of the mean, so essentially they all make about 5% of outlying particles, or the same amount proportionally - distribution tightness/wideness affects what their size relative to the average will be. How big/small those outlying particles actually are will vary according to average grind size, as may whether they are mostly boulders, a mix, or mostly fines.

So let's suppose I have an average grind size of 450um, and a sdev of 1.5, I'd fully expect to see some particles at, or over 1000um in size. Maybe even some nudging 2000um?


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## SteveR (Aug 21, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Most definitions of "fines" & "boulders" that we see on forums/the net are the thoughts of individuals & no obvious universal definition, seemingly just things that people say. The fines peak in espresso is around 50um & that seems pretty consistent & necessary.
> 
> All grinders produce particles outside of 2 sdevs of the mean, so essentially they all make about 5% of outlying particles, or the same amount proportionally - distribution tightness/wideness affects what their size relative to the average will be. How big/small those outlying particles actually are will vary according to average grind size, as may whether they are mostly boulders, a mix, or mostly fines.
> 
> So let's suppose I have an average grind size of 450um, and a sdev of 1.5, I'd fully expect to see some particles at, or over 1000um in size. Maybe even some nudging 2000um?


It's a general thing that attributes of things are not measured or quantified, so this is interesting information. I work for a national measurement institute, so these things are fascinating to me.

Has there ever been a study to measure the individual particle sizes? I suppose that once your population SD is within tight enough limits, it probably has no noticeable effect on the final brew taste, and I guess that differences in freshness would be far more influential. I'm not aware that we've yet managed to define a measurement standard for taste though, so it's all a bit moot.

Back to the Niche, it looks good, is nice and small, and if it satisfies some of the more discerning coffee drinkers then it's definitely on my list of potential replacements for my old, large and extremely ugly Iberital MC5


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

MWJB said:


> Most definitions of "fines" & "boulders" that we see on forums/the net are the thoughts of individuals & no obvious universal definition, seemingly just things that people say. The fines peak in espresso is around 50um & that seems pretty consistent & necessary.
> 
> All grinders produce particles outside of 2 sdevs of the mean, so essentially they all make about 5% of outlying particles, or the same amount proportionally - distribution tightness/wideness affects what their size relative to the average will be. How big/small those outlying particles actually are will vary according to average grind size, as may whether they are mostly boulders, a mix, or mostly fines.
> 
> So let's suppose I have an average grind size of 450um, and a sdev of 1.5, I'd fully expect to see some particles at, or over 1000um in size. Maybe even some nudging 2000um?


Indeed my usage of 'boulders' in this circumstance is simply used to define a belief that a grinder will produce larger sized particles which are the cause of channeling. Not a belief that I have any real interest in as it is not something I have observed myself.

If someone were to take the measurements and show a strong correlation between grinders that produced a significant amount of larger particles compared to the mean and channeling then perhaps I would begin to buy into the idea - but as it is I think there has just been a casual association between cheap grinders and channeling, and then assumptions about how this relates to particle distribution.

Not from yourself if that isn't clear from what I am writing.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

SteveR said:


> Has there ever been a study to measure the individual particle sizes?.


You mean average particle sizes for different brew methods? MPE Chicago have some interesting resources on the matter, gleaned from over the last 60+ years... https://www.mpechicago.com/coffee/images/uploads/pdfs/handoutsweb.pdf

Laser particle analysis can zero in on more precise volume at specific sizes such as here ...http://www.baratza.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/VIRTUOSO-graph.pdf


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## SteveR (Aug 21, 2017)

MWJB said:


> You mean average particle sizes for different brew methods? MPE Chicago have some interesting resources on the matter, gleaned from over the last 60+ years... https://www.mpechicago.com/coffee/images/uploads/pdfs/handoutsweb.pdf
> 
> Laser particle analysis can zero in on more precise volume at specific sizes such as here ...http://www.baratza.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/VIRTUOSO-graph.pdf


Crikey, that's a most un-normal distribution pattern.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

The EK43 is known for its tight particle size distribution. It's a £1600 grinder normally associated with brewed rather than espresso. The espresso it produces is sufficiently 'different' to earn the results their own name "EKspresso" (rather than universally acclaimed as the end game). It is not universally accepted that "EKspresso" is 'better' than the results from other high end grinders. The narrow PSD (size range not pop SDev) seems almost anomalous and unusual. Other top end grinders with wider PSDs also make good espresso, maybe slower flowing and gloopier, with a different taste to an EK. There will always be fines, I guess so long as the 'boulders' aren't great big coarse cold brew sized lumps it shouldn't lead to channeling etc.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

SteveR said:


> Crikey, that's a most un-normal distribution pattern.


Probably doesn't look so weird with a non-log scale.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

hotmetal said:


> The EK43 is known for its tight particle size distribution. It's a £1600 grinder normally associated with brewed rather than espresso. The espresso it produces is sufficiently 'different' to earn the results their own name "EKspresso" (rather than universally acclaimed as the end game). It is not universally accepted that "EKspresso" is 'better' than the results from other high end grinders. The narrow PSD (size range not pop SDev) seems almost anomalous and unusual. Other top end grinders with wider PSDs also make good espresso, maybe slower flowing and gloopier, with a different taste to an EK. There will always be fines, I guess so long as the 'boulders' aren't great big coarse cold brew sized lumps it shouldn't lead to channeling etc.


£1600 new. Dream on


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

hotmetal said:


> The narrow PSD (size range not pop SDev) seems almost anomalous and unusual. Other top end grinders with wider PSDs also make good espresso, maybe slower flowing and gloopier, with a different taste to an EK.


The EK seems fairly unusual compared to other burr grinders but roller mills (starting at several tens of thousands of pounds) for commercial grinding can also target tighter distributions, extraction yields in the mid 20's are not uncommon. However, it seems that the driver behind this is often to use smaller doses per serving (economy).

But, obviously, making & serving espresso from pre ground presents more problems than it solves, so typical grinders are not likely to become obsolete in the foreseeable future for those wanting coffee ground & brewed to order.


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## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

This is a bit of a left field point. When I first saw the promotional video I was immediately aware of the on/off switch; a simple ss toggle which looked quite light weight to me and the only thing that was detracting from what otherwise looks great.

Since that observation, I have had a very similar, almost identical, looking switch fail -physically- on a high end flight simulation joystick/throttle. Now I might do a lot of flying on the PC. but that switch was bound to a function that might be used 4 to 5 times an hour, so maybe upto 50 actuations per week over 8 months. Other switches used much less feel the same they did when new, so maybe it was a rogue switch? I suppose 1600 coffees is quite a lot in the home environment, but I would be still disappointed if that was its likely limit. As I said it might have been a poorly QC'd switch on my throttle, but I think it stands worthy of consideration/note (mainly by the Niche team).

I maybe off the piste here but I would be much happier if, when I buy a niche (which is a good chance), a more solid on/off switch had been built in?

...oh and still very much interested


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I don't really like the toggle either but you can replace them easily enough if they break.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Assuming all toggle switches are prone to failure because you have had one fail is a pretty massive leap of logic.

If it worries you switch it off at the plug.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dylan said:


> Assuming all toggle switches are prone to failure because you have had one fail is a pretty massive leap of logic.
> 
> If it worries you switch it off at the plug.


There is also a trip switch activated when you lift the grinder's cover. Toggle switches with an estimated 50000 or 100000 operations lifespan are easy to find. I regularly deal with gear from the 50's & 60's with original toggle switches.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

It'd be interesting to see what @Niche Coffee thinks of the feedback so far?


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## Niche Coffee (Aug 4, 2017)

Thank you for all your comments, which we are following with interest. We are on at least 6 forums and in over 100 news articles around the world (as well as Coffee Forums UK) that we know of. As much as we would love to, we just do not have the resources to enter into individual dialogue. We have tried to answer specific questions via our FAQ page on our website and we will continue to update this.

We believe it will be better for all if you read Dave's independent and very detailed report (which we believe will be available very soon) giving you an expert, unbiased and detailed review on the Niche Zero grinder. We hope this will show the care and attention that has gone into this design and the meticulous care and attention that Dave has put into the report.

In our long experience of designing products it normally takes 9-10 months to tool up, procure parts, test, manufacture, build and distribute a quality product. This will give us enough time to give you the best product possible.

Thank you again for your support.

The Niche Team


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

@Niche Coffee

Thank you for checking in


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

I totally understand that you cannot possibly engage in small talks with absolutely everyone on every forum.

I also totally understand you cannot (and should not) listen to everyone's opinion. Having said that I believe it is critical that you keep constant, no matter how small or insignificant, communication from your side flowing out (probably best through your website) to let people know and remind them that you're not standing still ☺

I wish you all the best, Team Niche!


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## Stevie-heathie (Jun 21, 2017)

Thanks for checking in, Niche, but I'm disappointed that you are effectively washing your hands of this thread. Have you forgotten that you actually initiated it? It's not cool to now now claim that you are too busy to respond because you are active on too many other media and forums.

As a reminder, here's what you wrote just a few short weeks ago. This is pretty basic corporate PR 101 stuff guys! Surprisingly woeful from such a supposedly experienced team. (Kenwood you say? Big deal)

"Hello from Niche Coffee and thank you for all your comments.

We have started this thread to try to answer your questions."


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Give it a rest people


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Stevie-heathie said:


> Thanks for checking in, Niche, but I'm disappointed that you are effectively washing your hands of this thread. Have you forgotten that you actually initiated it? It's not cool to now now claim that you are too busy to respond because you are active on too many other media and forums.
> 
> As a reminder, here's what you wrote just a few short weeks ago. This is pretty basic corporate PR 101 stuff guys! Surprisingly woeful from such a supposedly experienced team. (Kenwood you say? Big deal)
> 
> ...


Can I put some perspective in here. At the time the thread was started, I spoke with Niche several times which ended up with a referral to DaveC. It was felt that dave could do a better job than a lengthy q&a session since resources are stretched. Dave has had the grinder initially for a days play, then it was decided the best way forward was to leave it with him for the remainder of 2 weeks, allowing him to conduct a fairly short term test. this has been done and soon the report will be published. these things take time, something that a lot of you seem unwilling to grant. Never seen such a bunch of bedwetting keyboard warriors, though in fairness, it is a forum!

SIT AND WAIT!!


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

Unusually I am agreeing with dfk on this one. ( except for the bedwetting reference).

Nothing is going to happen faster so lets have a little patience.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Boots *LIKING* a DFK post - what is the world coming to?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

For what it's worth, agree with David.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Yep, me also..

The reason keyboard warriors wet the bed is because they daren't go to the loo in case someone is wrong on the internet.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Lets put this in perspective.

The closer you get to a launch the more focus you need to put into the stuff that matters.

In this case it is the dotting the i's and crossing the t's of the launch paperwork, finalising supply chains, double checking media releases, liaising with reviewers and somehow fitting in eating and sleeping.

The fact that you've had engagement in any form is quite rare - and to have a grinder in the wild that you can get hands-on time with is priceless.

Not every question can or will be answered during such periods - no matter what the intention is.


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## Stevie-heathie (Jun 21, 2017)

. Fair enough. I was going to get all aereated with DFK's post but then the bed wetting keyboard warrior comment got me. Will sit and wait for what will, I'm sure, be a very thorough and objective review.


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## Niche Coffee (Aug 4, 2017)

It's been a bit of a breathless first 48 hours for the Niche Zero Indiegogo campaign.

We were over-whelmed to see how fast the first 50 units at £350 sold out (just 50 minutes after launch) and dismayed to learn that so many of you missed out.

After listening to your feedback, we have decided to release a further 150 units at £350 and also ship to Australia, so more people have a chance to buy at the original 30% discount.

We have personally emailed the existing £400 backers with a refund offer.

Link to campaign - https://igg.me/at/nichezerogrinder

So don't miss out on getting your Niche Zero in this exclusive deal!

The Niche Team


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Brilliant! One more on board!


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Come June time next year, I guess I'll find out what all the fuss is about


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Should we not merge these threads or just lock this one?


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## donblacc (Jul 23, 2017)

It seems the stars have aligned. Last night I was considering whether to go for this, partially gutted I missed out on the first bunch - and behold - today i receive the email offering another batch at 350.. PLUS, it can be shipped to Australia which is where I may be as of June. Can't say no to that, I'm backing! (just hope I can change delivery address when the time comes)


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

donblacc said:


> It seems the stars have aligned. Last night I was considering whether to go for this, partially gutted I missed out on the first bunch - and behold - today i receive the email offering another batch at 350.. PLUS, it can be shipped to Australia which is where I may be as of June. Can't say no to that, I'm backing! (just hope I can change delivery address when the time comes)


Yes you can. You just go into your order page and change it.


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