# Help on Classic upgrade please



## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

Hello all,

I bought an unloved Gaggia Classic and descaled and cleaned it. It's ok but finicky and I fail to get nice tasting espresso from it with any degree of consistency.

I'm looking at approaching SWMBO with a business case for a new (to me, used) machine that is better designed, easier for a novice home barista and ability to produce reliable espresso shots, plus steam milk for the occasional latte and inevitable hot chocolate required to keep her and daughter happy.

I like the look of the Fracino Cherub type machines, but don't really know where to start. I guess budget is about 600 max and I think I'm looking for ease of use and consistency.

I have a Mazzer SJ grinder already, and with my current setup the best tasting results I had have been using "Cubita" coffee beans I bought back with me from Cuba last year. At 30 quid/kilo in the UK though that's no dice for me (I paid 8 cuc = 8gbp for a kilo there)

I must admit I tend to use Bristol tap water (awful) and am a bit slack with descaling and back flushing however even when I do thoroughly my shots just don't improve. I don't really want to PID my classic as the kit is 100, I'd rather take the plunge on a prosumer machine.

I understand the difference between machines, i.e. single and dual boiler and heat exchanger etc but I guess would like some help on what to look for.

I drink probably 3 double espresso a day, 7 days a week.

Many thanks for reading and any help you may have.

BT


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Tell us how you prepare a shot, and what beans you use. That's probably the starting point to troubleshooting, but rarely cures upgraditus. (Though of course we are happy to tell SWMBO you absolutely definitely need a shiny new machine as well )


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

Missy said:


> Tell us how you prepare a shot, and what beans you use. That's probably the starting point to troubleshooting, but rarely cures upgraditus. (Though of course we are happy to tell SWMBO you absolutely definitely need a shiny new machine as well )


Ok. I have the SJ set to what I think is the right grind. Machine is on for at least half an hour to heat, and I tend to use lavazza beans - Qualita Rossa. The grinder is setup to dose c. 15gr (and is pretty consistent within .2 to .5 of a gram). Double dose into a non ridged basket, tamped using a reasonable pressure. I find if I make the grind a touch finer it takes a minute to pull a shot and tastes foul, a touch coarser and it's just bitter. Awful.

I'm not into getting tamping mats or pressure tamper, using a commercial machine (friend is a barista) I can pull a decent shot no bother. Same grinder, similar looking and feeling grind, and even using same beans it's just not the same... nor even close!


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Ok, things to look into are a) freshly roasted beans... The lavazza will be well past roasting. In a commercial environment bags last 24 hours or less. I'm guessing it's open longer at home, and they seem to age rapidly when exposed to air (they are usually either vac sealed or nitrogen flushed to "suspend" the ageing in the bag)

B) check out temp surfing. Unless you fit a PID to a gaggia it's essential to make sure you get the best shot.

Otherwise your prep sounds good, you don't say you've been weighing out your espresso, so we can't see what the ratio is... 15g to 30g? 40g?


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

Missy said:


> Ok, things to look into are a) freshly roasted beans... The lavazza will be well past roasting. In a commercial environment bags last 24 hours or less. I'm guessing it's open longer at home, and they seem to age rapidly when exposed to air (they are usually either vac sealed or nitrogen flushed to "suspend" the ageing in the bag)
> 
> B) check out temp surfing. Unless you fit a PID to a gaggia it's essential to make sure you get the best shot.
> 
> Otherwise your prep sounds good, you don't say you've been weighing out your espresso, so we can't see what the ratio is... 15g to 30g? 40g?


Hi Missy.

I tend to do 15g grinds to 45-50g finished product. So more than the recommended 1:2 ratio however I find this to be more of a ristretto than espresso. I have tried mail order fresh roasted beans and not really found a difference - some shots great, others are so bitter as to make me gag!

To be honest I am lazy and usually rushing so I don't want to/can't be doing with weighing grinds in, dosing, and weighing output everyday, plus I'm up early for work and will receive an awful row if I wake up the rest of the house!

I don't really understand temp surfing, I get the concept but I will try again and see if results improve.

As an aside I wonder if keeping beans in a vacuum chamber will help?


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

So in failing that, which machines are best to look at please anyone?

Thanks


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## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

You might find that a PID would solve some of the inconsistency, but that would mean you fitting a PID/ having one fitted.

It effectively removes the need for temperature surfing because the old thermal strip sensors aren't as accurate as the moderns sensors.

Just one thought, when you switch on and leave it to get up to temperature, you do have the portafilter in place don't you? If that isn't up to temperature it would greatly alter the shot.


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

AndyDClements said:


> You might find that a PID would solve some of the inconsistency, but that would mean you fitting a PID/ having one fitted.
> 
> It effectively removes the need for temperature surfing because the old thermal strip sensors aren't as accurate as the moderns sensors.
> 
> Just one thought, when you switch on and leave it to get up to temperature, you do have the portafilter in place don't you? If that isn't up to temperature it would greatly alter the shot.


Yes I do have it in place when heating. To be honest I'm more than capable of fitting the PID but I just think that's 100 quid. I can easily sell the classic for between 100 and 120, plus the 100 for a PID gives me a good start on a really decent machine.

I know there's loads of tweaks and fiddles I could do to improve results but I just plain CBA. Buying gauges to make PRV adjustment etc just isn't practical in my available free time

I am 99% sure that's the way I want to go, but don't really know which machines to look at


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## MartinB (May 8, 2011)

Two things I would address first are water and beans (and also regular preventative maintenance of your machine, which should be a given!)


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Have a read of this thread. Without a regular cleaning program you're likely gonna run into the same sort of problems with anything you upgrade to.


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

ashcroc said:


> Have a read of this thread. Without a regular cleaning program you're likely gonna run into the same sort of problems with anything you upgrade to.


Thanks.

If I had a new machine then I'd run on RO mixed with a bit of tap mixed at around 150 ppm. As a marine aquarist I understand water quality completely and would do my coffee water when running the RO for my tank top up.

I'd also learn and adopt a proper cleaning schedule.

I guess I want to upgrade to a machine that gives more consistency by design rather than the faff on with the Gaggia.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Bella barista have just started selling lelits which look great and i think a couple in budget


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## db8000 (Dec 6, 2017)

The Lelits are nice looking machines. Somewhere on here is a glowing review of the Mara, though above your stated budget.

I too too have used Bristol water until last month. Switching to Volvic, even in an old Delonghi, made a big difference.

Also try one of the local roasters. I've had twoday and Lavazza in the kitchen in the last month. No comparison.


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

db8000 said:


> The Lelits are nice looking machines. Somewhere on here is a glowing review of the Mara, though above your stated budget.
> 
> I too too have used Bristol water until last month. Switching to Volvic, even in an old Delonghi, made a big difference.
> 
> Also try one of the local roasters. I've had twoday and Lavazza in the kitchen in the last month. No comparison.


Can you recommend any roasters in particular? The only one I know really is Wogan at bottom of M32. Never tried him but it might be time to...


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

Don't know any Bristol roasters but as you're in the south west make make friends with crankhouse. Great coffee and the owner Dave is a top man. Start with Glorious Espresso and CH8 and maybe throw in a bag of the Guji Shakiso which is awesome as a flat white. There's a 15% discount code on a thread somewhere which makes terrific coffee even more awesome.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Extract roasters are excellent and are based on Bristol


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

So. I have scrubbed, cleaned, flushed, and weighed and whilst my results are better, they are nowhere near the results I got from the Cuban beans I loved so much.

The crema is very thin despite looking a nice colour and the acid/bitter taste is much reduced (no gagging for me) but still there in a small amount. It's sweeter but still not great. Passable, not good.

I have ordered the parts to make up an OPV tester to double check the static pressure, I can put a needle valve in it to set dynamic pressure (glycerin filled gauge for hydraulic systems) and I'm wondering if I can PID it with an arduino or raspberry pi I have lying around...


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## db8000 (Dec 6, 2017)

Extract Roasters are the other side of the M32.

Twoday is on Union Street (handy if in Broadmead) and on St Michael's Hill I think.

Clifton Coffee might not have a retail store but is online.

Triple is in Stocks Croft.


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## db8000 (Dec 6, 2017)

and I meant to say - I quite like Brian Wogan. Big choice and friendly in there. I used to buy a box every month for my team at work. They'd bring it round for free. Until work stopped personal deliveries!

I've just finished what was (I think) the Brazilian roast from Twoday. it was lovely.


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

If you're happy to buy second hand then the Sage dual boiler could be a good option for you. I would highly recommend sorting out your water (which sounds like you're going to do) and weighing in and out. .5g in can make a big difference on the time it takes to exctract.

Coffee tastes different so don't try and replicate the Cuban beans you found in Cuba. If you're currently using Lavazza then start off with darker roast blends something like Signature from Rave.

You can get amazing results at home but you have to be methodical and buy good beans. If this isn't for you then maybe consider a good bean to cup machine otherwise you will still be disappointed after your upgrade.


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

Nopapercup said:


> If you're happy to buy second hand then the Sage dual boiler could be a good option for you. I would highly recommend sorting out your water (which sounds like you're going to do) and weighing in and out. .5g in can make a big difference on the time it takes to exctract.
> 
> Coffee tastes different so don't try and replicate the Cuban beans you found in Cuba. If you're currently using Lavazza then start off with darker roast blends something like Signature from Rave.
> 
> You can get amazing results at home but you have to be methodical and buy good beans. If this isn't for you then maybe consider a good bean to cup machine otherwise you will still be disappointed after your upgrade.


I've done some testing today and my Mazzer is pretty consistent dosing 15g for a double shot. Never under and 6 different double shots weighed a tolerance 15g -0+0.2g.

I could up to 16g I guess, but as stated before I find the 1:2 ratio is a ristretto rather than espresso. For 15g coffee I stop at 40g which finishes up at 43g finished product, so a 1:3 ratio in around 25 seconds.


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

brokentechie said:


> I've done some testing today and my Mazzer is pretty consistent dosing 15g for a double shot. Never under and 6 different double shots weighed a tolerance 15g -0+0.2g.
> 
> I could up to 16g I guess, but as stated before I find the 1:2 ratio is a ristretto rather than espresso. For 15g coffee I stop at 40g which finishes up at 43g finished product, so a 1:3 ratio in around 25 seconds.


That sounds pretty good and if you prefer 1:3 ratio stick with it. Now you have consistency you can adjust your grind to get the right taste. If the coffee is bitter it's probably taking too long to extract so go slightly coarser and if it's sour and coming out too quickly go a bit finer.


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