# Is it meant to hurt this much?



## Vieux Clou (Oct 22, 2014)

Is there a condition known as La Pavoni Elbow? I think I've got it.

Seriously, though, should pulling a shot really take *that *much force?


----------



## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

excessive force required to pull a shot on the la pavoni is one of 5 things.

(1) you are elderly and can no longer open jars or packets without assistance

(2) you are infirm (no jokes about the infirm)

(3) its arm day at the gym and you cant use your upper body

(4) you overdosed the basket

(5) grind setting is too tight

any one of these will cause you issues ..... any 2 of them and you can call a choke !


----------



## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Get a pump machine, no pain with them!


----------



## Vieux Clou (Oct 22, 2014)

^^^ Got one. La Pav is faster.

(4) & (5) likely. Grind setting is OK for pump engine; suspect too much tamp.

But how much force should be necessary? I've seen it estimated at 20 kilos.

Put it this way: should the base/boiler combo flex visibly?


----------



## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

I dont believe it should

I have a couple of spring levers AND the la pav ...... the force provided by the 9bar springs as it returns is way way less then the force applied to the la pav to make it flex.

Normally my grinder is set up for a VST basket in the pump which works out as a good setting for the La pav with the same tamp. ........ however since moving to the DSOL beans I am having the same issues as you and am having to pull like a b*stard to get the shot out. ...... leaning you whole body weight on the lever to get it out just isn't right ... there should be resistance but not enough to make you curse and the machine bend

that said though .... the time it takes to pull the shot is making for some lovely shots ...... when I manage to get it right I am going to pull a lot slower and stretch the extraction out to 50s to experiment I think


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Only 28-30lbs of force is required on a La Pavoni, this is actually much smaller than you would think and really doesn't require very much pressure on the lever.


----------



## Vieux Clou (Oct 22, 2014)

@h1udd: I'm getting ~30 sec extractions and shots that to dream of, out of roughly 80% of the coffee that goes into the pump machine to pour shots that are so-so in comparison. Like you, I'm using the same grind for both machines.

When I lift the lever I watch the level in the sight glass until it stops sinking, then allow around 5 sec for pre-infusion. When I start the pull, back-pressure on the lever is light for about 1/3 of its travel, then rises swiftly until I'm leaning my upper body on it. Not that much crema but oh the flavour...

@DavecUK: right. That implies... what does that imply: lighter tamp/coarser grind and reduce the force on the lever to lengthen the pull? Overlap the time for the group to fill and pre-infusion to take place?

Fascinating machines, though. Or should that be perplexing?


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I'm getting the same, as in I'm having to use quite a bit of force to start with - but this lessens throughout the pour. With this months LSOL I've had to dose less, grind finer and tamp lighter to get a result (I usually grind fine and tamp light anyway - fingertip pressure only). Try tamping lighter?


----------



## jtldurnall (Mar 16, 2015)

I read somewhere that the ideal force should be like cutting through really cold butter. Do with this fact what you will.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Vieux Clou said:


> @DavecUK: right. That implies... what does that imply: lighter tamp/coarser grind and reduce the force on the lever to lengthen the pull? Overlap the time for the group to fill and pre-infusion to take place?
> 
> Fascinating machines, though. Or should that be perplexing?


28-30 lbs force is required to generate 9-9.5 bar in the group and it's really easy to pull with 50 lbs force and not realise it, think about those click tampers set to 20 lbs, how easy it is. The force should be kept fairly constant throughout the shot, this is also difficult to do because of the way our muscles feed back. If you are leaning your upper body on the lever f^&^* me that's a lot of pressure.

If you pull and suddenly part way through it becomes much easier...that's not a good sign (probably the puck has fractured). Lack of crema is a bad sign with fresh coffee (even if the pull force is still terrifically high)and again a small fracture on the puck allowing only a small part of the coffee to be contacted by hot water, but still maintaining the crema.

So from what you imply...yes a coarser grind and yes you still need to tamp, not terrifically hard, just about 10 lbs...BUT, the tamper must be well fitting 9not super tight fit) and you need to tamp in sich a way to ensure no voids and even compression.. If you can't get a good shot by grinding coarse e.g. lever far to easy to pull, or becomes to easy to pull rapidly, then you need to look to your grinder. The grinder for a La Pavoni ideally needs to be better quality than the minimum you can get away with for a pump machine. A cheap grinder will simply not cut it with levers.

P.S. When I tamp I use 2- 3 fingers on the tamper and press down gently, then rotate hand a little press again, rotate a little press again. The objective is with the 3 presses to have got pressure all round the rim of the tamper. You will often find when doing this that the tamper goes down one side a little more as you find an area that wasn't compressed with the first tamp.....sort of like treading in the soil around a plant.

I recommend you read this review of a Pavoni I did many years ago, it was for the stradivari, but the principles are exacly the same on your machine. Oh you could also get some luggage scales if you pull or simply press down on some scales if you push and see what 28lbs feels like...it's not a lot.

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/LaPavoniStradivariLussocloserlookv1%281%29.pdf


----------



## jkb89 (Dec 10, 2014)

Over the weekend when I had training with gary on the La pav the best shots came (measured 19.9% EY on the refractometer (i think!), SJ & Pav combo) with really quite a lot of force...


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

jkb89 said:


> Over the weekend when I had training with gary on the La pav the best shots came (measured 19.9% EY on the refractometer (i think!), SJ & Pav combo) with really quite a lot of force...


So you would have been putting 16 bar+ through for your shots....if you were using quite a lot of force? I suppose if they measured 19.9% then you got what you were looking for, but seems to fly in the face of accepted experience over the years with repsect to pressure. Of course your post is a simple 1 liner, so no idea of background or context really.


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> Get a pump machine, no pain with them!


No pain but no gain


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I've always got my best results when I've had to start with a bit of force.. Don't forget it's not the same continuous force throughout the shot - it's steadily declining until it can be fingertip pressure on the lever only. I've seen videos where the user will pull the lever when drips start to appear on pre-infusion, to me that's too course (..usually they put most of their body weight behind the tamper as well..)

I'm not an expert by all means, but if the shot tastes good then who's to say what's right or wrong?


----------



## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

I've found I have to use a lot of pressure also, will try grinding coarser over the weekend...and reading DavecUk's review.


----------



## Vieux Clou (Oct 22, 2014)

@DavecUK: interesting article, ta. I'd say 15 kg was about what I'm putting on the lever. I suppose I could screw a pressure gauge onto the bottom of the PF (sans coffee) and calculate the force I am putting on, but I know from experience that perceived effort can differ from real by a considerable percentage. OTOH I could take it to 9 bar and try to remember how it felt in the hand.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Vieux Clou said:


> @DavecUK: interesting article, ta. I'd say 15 kg was about what I'm putting on the lever. I suppose I could screw a pressure gauge onto the bottom of the PF (sans coffee) and calculate the force I am putting on, but I know from experience that perceived effort can differ from real by a considerable percentage. OTOH I could take it to 9 bar and try to remember how it felt in the hand.


Just use a set of cheap luggage scales, those ones with a hook on em. Fix them up to the end of the lever, pull down until you see around 30lbs...I guarantee you will be surprised....very surprised....I know I was.


----------



## Vieux Clou (Oct 22, 2014)

Good idea. I'll give it a go tomorrow.


----------



## Vieux Clou (Oct 22, 2014)

OK then. I was running at about 19 kg with ~14g in the basket and a firm tamp. Reduced to 12g & a light tamp and I'm running at ~12 kg. The extraction was frankly better at 19/14 but I'll fiddle about a bit yet with the tamp. Not changing the grind 'cos it's fine for the Lelit.

Trying to pull the 19 kg shot with the luggage scale on the lever is kinda contortionate. Damn thing slips. In the end I unscrewed the handle a bit and padded the scale hook with bike inner tube to protect the thread. That worked.

However (muppetry medal, second class, claim submission): I usually brace the machine with one hand on the filler knob. During one pull I lifted this hand to try & squint at the scale and the whole shebang went arse over tip back across the counter. Coffee everywhere, machine in its face with base against the wall. Wiped up counter, set machine up straight, then (muppetry medal plus bar) unhooked the PF before the pressure had all leaked away.

Even the bloody parrot was laughing.

Machine's fine: EPs are solid.


----------



## lespresso (Aug 29, 2008)

As a suggestion for the la pavonis and other small levers, one hand on the lever pulling down, the other hand on the handle of the portafilter pulling up, as you would if you were operating shears

This balances the downward force, and in doing so takes all the stress off the machine

As a result the machine is a lot safer to operate as you reduce the chance of it flicking out from under you

Reiss


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Vieux Clou said:


> OK then. I was running at about 19 kg with ~14g in the basket and a firm tamp. Reduced to 12g & a light tamp and I'm running at ~12 kg. The extraction was frankly better at 19/14 but I'll fiddle about a bit yet with the tamp. Not changing the grind 'cos it's fine for the Lelit.


Well I'm glad you tried the experiment and have the "memory" of the pull force. Unfortunately you can't simply put less in and tamp lighter, that's not really how it works. You need to be keeping everything you do the same as before, but varying the grind. I can't emphasis how important grind is for these machines. They are also very unforgiving of cheap grinders another mistake many owners make. In fact it's almost a certainty that if the grind is right for a pumped machine with a 58 or 57 mm portafilter, it wouldn't be right for a Pavoni.


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I noticed when I swapped over from the Classic, I had to grind finer for the Pavoni. My usual dose is 15g, but just lately I've been using 14g instead (this has suited the LSOL so trying it with others). I know my grinder is more than capable with regards to the Pavoni so that's not an issue. If you start pulling with 19kg, it's not going to be a constant 19kg is it? It'll drop throughout the pull. It shouldn't be that hard though I agree, trouble is if you grind courser and it pull better, it might taste crap which is going backwards. I did one last night like this, and it was ok with milk but I've had better grinding finer. I do worry that I am putting more stress on the machine though. Will have to persevere.


----------



## Vieux Clou (Oct 22, 2014)

@DavecUK: Right... I need to get some of those wee self-adhesive discs to mark the Lelit grind and the La Pav grind, then.

@Reiss: sounds like sense, thanks.


----------

