# Gaggia Classic: 16g of grounds, 35 second shot, still sour?



## ShaunChris

Hi guys,

So I've been using a Gaggia Classic for about 2 weeks now, and I'm having a problem:

I am using *16g* of beans that I *hand grind with a Hario Mini Mill (usually around 5 clicks from full)*.

I weigh the beans before and after I grind, usually still about 16g.

The beans are currently *Pact Coffee Irmas Pereira.*(I have a bag of TAKK Projeckt North, and my favourite beans are currently NUDE's East Blend.)

I am using the normal *Gaggia Portafilter** with two spouts.* (My eye is on the bottomless filter but I don't have the budget for that for now.)

I load my portafilter with the 16g of coffee grounds, I tamp it down with my *basic Gaggia black plastic tamper.* (I have ordered a Motta 58mm wooden tamper that'll arrive next week.)

I switch on my *Gaggia Classic* for at least 15 minutes before I use it, usually 30 minutes.

I start my stopwatch from the time I flick the brew switch.

It usually takes about *6 to 8 seconds* for the espresso to start flowing.

It can take anywhere from *20 to 35 seconds **after that,** to get anywhere between 32g to 64g of espresso.*

This 32g of espresso usually measures about 1oz of liquid.

I only got my digital scales yesterday - Before yesterday, for 2 weeks, all other settings above the same, I would run my espresso brew, it would take about 25-35 seconds from the time I flicked the switch, to get me 2oz of espresso.

*This 32g of espresso tastes very sour, although it looks good, with 3 distinct layers:*

*
The bottom, the darkest and blackest area,*

*
The middle, which is very dark brown,*

*
And the top crema, which is a good 1mm or so thick, and does not break apart for at least 1-2 minutes or more.*



*
*Help me troubleshoot this please!

I seem to get sour brews more often than bitter brews, indicating I am getting under-extracted coffee.

However I'm unsure what variables to experiment with to improve this.

If I make my grind more fine, I either choke the machine (it takes 10 seconds or more to start the espresso flowing) *and *the espresso takes too long to flow.


----------



## froggystyle

32g to 64g is a big range!

What are you getting out at 30 seconds, on average?

Sour could mean under extracting, indicated by your shot pouring very fast, 64g out in 30 seconds would highlight this.


----------



## Mrboots2u

The tamper is pants , i predict channeling in the puck = sourness

I cant see a reference to any temp surfing here either

The machine shoudld be warmed up at 30 minutes but where in the heating are you pulling the shots

Sour also = too low an extraction temp


----------



## froggystyle

Sure you know this, but the plastic tamper will hinder you, plus not sure where 5 clicks from full is on the hario, but it does sounds to me like you maybe grinding too course, factor in the tamper giving an inconsistent tamp gives you shots all over the place.


----------



## MWJB

The plastic tamper probably isn't doing you any favours, at the minute.

Grinding finer, how long is "too long", much over 40seconds? I wouldn't hold too much store by shot time, you may have shots that taste good outside of 35-40seconds.

Aim for the weight of shot, record time, but don't kill the shot by a specific time.

Indeed it sounds, like you are underextracting, so grinding finer &/or pulling heavier shots should lift extraction.

Keep a note of shot weight, grind setting & time so you can refer back, or tell us what you find on a shot-by-shot basis.


----------



## aaroncornish

Sounds like you have too many variables to work on.

Keep the dose consistent. Adjust grind and timings

As has been said your temperature could be a problem. Google temp surfing if you haven't already

Good luck! The classic is an awesome machine and you will get there


----------



## ShaunChris

Hey everyone,

Thanks for the useful advice and feedback! I realise I left out some data so I'm adding them here:

*ESPRESSO WEIGHT/AMOUNT*

On average I get about 2oz of espresso in 30 seconds.

I didn't know how much it weighed until I got my scales yesterday.

So today when I pulled a shot I weighed it as the shot came out - It took 30 seconds to reach 32g (with 16g of grounds), but the 32g was only about 1oz worth.

Typically 2oz will come out in 30 seconds, also with about 15-18g of grounds.

I only say typically about 64g will come out in 30 seconds as an estimation - I didn't weigh it previously as I didn't have scales, but if 32g = 1oz now, and not much variables changed at all, then 2oz should be approximately 64g.

*TAMPER*

*
*Yeah the tamper is shit, waiting for my Motta tamper to arrive so I can get it more down pat.

*TEMP SURFING*

I leave the machine on for at least 20-30minutes.

I wait for the Brew Light to come on, then off, then when it comes on again, I wait about 20 seconds *then *I pull the shot.

For a second espresso shot, I wait for 2 Brew Cycles, meaning since the light goes off after I pull a shot, I wait for it to come on, then off, then on again, then about 20 seconds then I pull the 2nd shot.



> but it does sounds to me like you maybe grinding too course


Today's shot with 16g of grounds gave me 32g in 30 seconds, but it was VERY sour.

If I grind finer, wouldn't it take even longer to get the same 32g, say 45 seconds or more?



> Grinding finer, how long is "too long", much over 40seconds? I wouldn't hold too much store by shot time, you may have shots that taste good outside of 35-40seconds.


Now that I have a digital scale, I will not be killing any shots by time, but purely by weight.

I aim to obtain a 50% brew ratio, so I will be simply doubling the weight of my grounds, and kill my shot to get that weight.

However I will record the timings to see if I can make some sense of my data.



> Indeed it sounds, like you are underextracting, so grinding finer &/or pulling heavier shots should lift extraction.


I will try grinding finer. What do you mean when you say *pulling heavier shots?*



*
*Do you mean using more grounds, like 18g grounds to get a 36g espresso?

Currently due to budget constraints I only have a single and double basket, also I have no bottomless PF, so I can't find issues such as channeling or spitting yet, unfortunately.

However if that is so, I will try to load the double basket with as much as it can handle.

Usually I go for 14g (the traditional double shot), now I am trying 16g.

I may try 16g for the next few days before I experiment with 18g.

At the same time I will be saving up to get a bottomless PF, but I only get one free basket with that, I'll probably get a blind basket to do backflushing (and not a triple basket yet), so I am limited by my double basket.


----------



## froggystyle

Forget Oz, work in g's

Me, i would wait till the new tamper comes, this will be a new thing to get right, believe me it will feel like a lump of lead after the crappy plastic thing.

For the double, stick with 18g for now and get your tamp consistent when the new one comes, when your confident your tamping consistently then work on the grind keeping the input (in gs) and the output (in gs) the same till you get where you want to be (taste wise)


----------



## MWJB

Yes, 18g dose (weighed to 0.1g) into 36g shot, or 40g (+/-1g for the shot).

Double basket shouldn't limit you.


----------



## ShaunChris

Will do that! Will focus on grams input and output, 18g -> 36g.

Once I get a few more of 18g to 36g shots done, I'll report back on sourness/bitterness, and we can fine-tune it!

Currently using *PACT COFFEE Irmas Pereira... *

*
*From their website: "From the first sip this coffee is intensely creamy in it's mouthfeel and has rich biscuity sweetness. It has a milk chocolate flavour and very mild apple like acidity. It reminds me of dunking chocolate chip cookies into warm milk."

Taste nothing but sourness right now... =/


----------



## Mrboots2u

ShaunChris said:
 

> Will do that! Will focus on grams input and output, 18g -> 36g.
> 
> Once I get a few more of 18g to 36g shots done, I'll report back on sourness/bitterness, and we can fine-tune it!
> 
> Currently using *PACT COFFEE Irmas Pereira... *
> 
> *
> *From their website: "From the first sip this coffee is intensely creamy in it's mouthfeel and has rich biscuity sweetness. It has a milk chocolate flavour and very mild apple like acidity. It reminds me of dunking chocolate chip cookies into warm milk."
> 
> Taste nothing but sourness right now... =/


Whats the roast date on it


----------



## NJD1977

I'll bet its a temperature problem. Had very similar problems myself with my gaggia before I fitted a PID. Try giving the steam switch a flick for 5-10s before you pull the shot, you'll probably me amazed at the difference.

Also, 16g is a small dose in a gaggia double basket. Up it to 18g.

But yeah, I'm pretty sure temperature is the main culprit here.


----------



## ShaunChris

Roast date was 5th May, so that shouldn't be the problem.

Yeah I'll try flicking the steam switch for 5-10 seconds before pulling the shot!

NJD1977: Does this steam switch flick work even for the 2nd espresso shot?

(As in, do I still need to wait 2 heating cycles before brewing the 2nd espresso, in addition with the steam trick?)


----------



## NJD1977

The classic has a long recovery time between shots to get back to stable temperature. Someone did a detailed study on it and its at least 5minutes from last pull finishing before it's ready to pull another.

The steam switch trick will work at any time, all it does is boost the heating elements for a few seconds to up the temperature slightly. Sometimes old thermostats in the classic might not quite be bringing your boiler up to the temperature needed for your beans.

Oh and one last thing, in my opinion the preshot flush is a terrible thing for the classic, by all means flush after the shot and clean or flush 15mins before the shot but not immediately before pulling the shot. And the whole idea of flushing to temperature surf is problematic in my opinion because you're just bringing too much cold water into the boiler.


----------



## Mrboots2u

NJD1977 said:


> Oh and one last thing, in my opinion the preshot flush is a terrible thing for the classic, by all means flush after the shot and clean or flush 15mins before the shot but not immediately before pulling the shot. And the whole idea of flushing to temperature surf is problematic in my opinion because you're just bringing too much cold water into the boiler.


This is good advise ^^^^


----------



## Kman10

I was led to believe that you need to flush the group before the shot, wait for light to switch on the pull shot, doesn't this mean you starting at roughly the same temp each time?


----------



## NJD1977

Kman10 said:


> I was led to believe that you need to flush the group before the shot, wait for light to switch on the pull shot, doesn't this mean you starting at roughly the same temp each time?


I was also led to believe this, but I fundamentally believe it's flawed advice, and since I stopped doing it I've had almost no sour shots.

In theory it gives you a known point, but in practice all you're doing is adding a load of cold water into the small boiler, the element kicks in, the boiler casing heats up quickly and the brew light comes on, but the water inside is still trying to catch up to the boiler casing temperature whilst mixing the new cold water with the hot water that's been in there for 30mins.

Just try it.


----------



## Kman10

NJD1977 said:


> I was also led to believe this, but I fundamentally believe it's flawed advice, and since I stopped doing it I've had almost no sour shots.
> 
> In theory it gives you a known point, but in practice all you're doing is adding a load of cold water into the small boiler, the element kicks in, the boiler casing heats up quickly and the brew light comes on, but the water inside is still trying to catch up to the boiler casing temperature whilst mixing the new cold water with the hot water that's been in there for 30mins.
> 
> Just try it.


I'll try, be less messing around that's for sure


----------



## froggystyle

Here is what i found on the classic,

1st shot after 20-30 minutes heating, wait till boiler light flicks off and then on, few seconds, pour shot, decent drink if your basket prep is fine.

2nd shot, i used give a very quick flush if only to assist with cleaning grinds of the shower plate, then wait a heating cycle, pour shot, this often lead to shot not as good as first, ideally you need to do as above but let it go through at least two heating cycles.

Now this method is fine if you only making espresso, however if your making two milky drinks at the same time, its a ball ache, you can make one shot, do your milk then flush and wait for second shot, but this is going to take some time if you want second shot to be as good as first.

My advice, if your making milk based drinks and want both shots to be consistent and served at the same time, PID the machine, if you dont then your always going to have to wait for second shot or lose some quality in it.

Failing that, go and buy a new machine.


----------



## ShaunChris

Update:

I am grinding on a 5-6 setting on the Hario Mini Mill. (5-6 clicks from fully closed.)

18g of beans -> 18g of grounds -> 36g of espresso, which measures about 1oz or just over 1oz.

Still leaving machine on for at least 20-30minutes, no "pre-flushing" or any of that.

Just load PF, leave it to warm up.

Flick steam switch on for 5-10 seconds, then immediately brew.

*BREW PROCESS*

Machine takes anywhere from 10 seconds to 30 seconds before first drips come out.

It then takes another 30 seconds to 60 seconds to get 36g of espresso, which is about 1oz or slightly over.

Espresso is extremely sour and tart.

*
What's the problem?*



*
*I will try making the grind a bit coarser, as the machine seems to be choking.

However it's strange that it is *choking* but still *underextracting* ??


----------



## Glenn

Aim for 5-8 seconds for first drips and a total extraction time of 25-30s from the time you flick the switch

Try grinding coarser


----------



## MWJB

It's not strange that it's choking & underextracting. The puck could be so dense as to not allow the water to evenly penetrate, the puck is slowing the shot, but not extracting properly. Could be too fine a grind, or nutated/too hard a tamp. A slower shot does not always mean a higher (sweeter/balanced) extraction.

Coarsen up a little. Aim for more like 45g out in 30sec to start with.

Forget oz.

Your shots from what you say are 40-90seconds. It would be helpful, given the wide variance to record each shot individually in terms of dose (to 0.1g), output (to 1g), grind setting, total shot time & how it tastes.


----------



## GCGlasgow

Would agree with other posters..forget oz, adding additional variables will only help confuse. I haven't used the beans you have but it may be you need to try a different bean. Ive found Rave's Italian Job and CC's Brighton Lanes are very easy to work with on the classic and very forgiving of my poor skills.


----------



## ShaunChris

Hey mate,

I'm currently using TAKK's Projekt North espresso blend.

However my main beans that I use are NUDE's East Blend, but I've ran out so had to do without it for now.


----------



## jlarkin

Don't want to side track other more knowledgeable peoples help but as it hasn't been mentioned yet what type of water are you using? Filtered or not and do you know if it's hard etc. I assume it shouldn't affect it that wildly but it's something that can have an affect on the taste...RO water, for instance, is supposed to lead to a more acidic taste.


----------



## garydyke1

as above what water are you using?


----------



## ShaunChris

Hey guys,

*UPDATE*



*
**Water Question: I'm using only filtered water that is filtered through my Brita filter.*



*
**Tamper: I received my 58mm Motta Convex tamper in the mail. It's slightly convex at the bottom, to account for the slight rounding of the basket.*



*
**Results: I adjusted my grind and made it coarser, it's about 6 clicks from fully shut, on the Hario Mini Mill.*



*
**Timing now is good, about 5-7 seconds before the espresso starts flowing, takes about 30-40 seconds to produce double the volume. I'm using 18g of grounds, which translates to a 36g espresso shot.*

*
The shot is still sour, but not **as sour now. With milk and one teaspoon of sugar, it is very pleasant on the palate. However I am aiming to produce espresso that is delicious on it's own, without milk and sugar.*



*
I conclude it is still underextracting due to the sourness. I have been leaving the machine on for at least 20 minutes, and flicking the steam switch on for about 8 seconds, then immediately pulling the shot.*

*
I will try to make the grind more fine, to attempt to increase the extraction.*



*
Tamping seems to be fine.*



*
The puck is generally moist but dryish, it's definitely not **soaking wet, just a damp puck.*

*
One hard knock with the PF results in 95% of the puck falling out, but about 5% of the puck remains within the basket.*

*
*

*
Is this an indication that the puck is still too wet? Should it be falling out as ONE puck?*



*
In this case, should I still make my grind finer, or.....?*


----------



## MWJB

Don't worry about the wet puck, it's not an issue.

Pull your shot longer until you're happy with the balance & sweetness of the shot.

When this happens, then try grinding finer & pulling the shot shorter to push up the intensity, whilst retaining the good flavour.


----------



## aaroncornish

Hey

Have you managed to test the temperature of your water?

See step 3.b here to see if there is anything drastically wrong

http://www.coffeecrew.com/learning/255-gaggia-classic-step-by-step


----------



## froggystyle

Dont forget you will get a touch of acidity to the bean you mentioned you were using, but deffo pull it a little long and check your temp of water, don't change the grind or tamp.


----------



## MWJB

ShaunChris said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> *UPDATE*
> 
> *Water Question: *I'm using only filtered water that is filtered through my Brita filter.


Gary's asking about whether your water is hard/soft, it's composition (calcium, magnesium, bicarbonate, dry residue), as soft water with low bicarbonate will make it harder to extract the coffee. Volvic might be a good datum water for you to use if you can't get this data from your local water authority.


----------



## aaroncornish

ShaunChris said:


> Hey mate,
> 
> I'm currently using TAKK's Projekt North espresso blend.
> 
> However my main beans that I use are NUDE's East Blend, but I've ran out so had to do without it for now.


I have had both of these recently, neither were sour.

Aaron


----------



## Mrboots2u

The range you can adjust your grinder and the quality of the grind it produces is also holding back the espresso you make

By all means change the water you are using , and pull the shot longer to improve the taste from your current equipment


----------



## ShaunChris

Hey guys,

Everyone is telling me to pull the shot longer.

Currently I'm pulling 36g of espresso from 18g of grounds - A 50% brew ratio.

Does this mean I should try a 40g espresso shot from 18g of grounds, then 45g espresso, keep going up until the taste improves?

As for water - Honestly I don't know, I live in Manchester and I just use tap water that is filtered. Should I be buying mineral water?


----------



## aaroncornish

Your water is going to be pretty soft in Manchester. We are in Manchester and ours is about PH neutral but very low TDS. I tested our tap water this morning, came in at 31.

I was more concerned with the temperature that it was coming out of the machine at. Did you read the link I posted about test water temp?

It's not an exact science but might help.

Aaron


----------



## froggystyle

Have you ever had an espresso from a coffee house?


----------



## aaroncornish

PS - if you are with United Utilities for water (pretty sure you will be) - you can get a decent breakdown of your tap water here - http://www.unitedutilities.com/waterquality.aspx

Just pop in your postcode

Aaron



Code:


Water quality details
Analysis	Typical Value	UK/EU limit	Units
Hardness Level	Very Soft		
Hardness Clarke	1.575		Clarke
Aluminium	Calcium	7.77		mg Ca/l
Residual chlorine - Total	0.62		mg/l
Residual chlorine - Free	0.56		mg/l
Coliform bacteria	0	0	number/100ml
Colour	Conductivity	64.3	2500	uS/cm at 20oC
Copper	0.0120	2	mg Cu/l
E.coli	0	0	number/100ml
Iron	Lead	Magnesium	0.901		mg Mg/l
Manganese	Nitrate	Sodium	5.69	200	mg Na/l


----------



## MWJB

ShaunChris said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Everyone is telling me to pull the shot longer.
> 
> Currently I'm pulling 36g of espresso from 18g of grounds - A 50% brew ratio.
> 
> Does this mean I should try a 40g espresso shot from 18g of grounds, then 45g espresso, keep going up until the taste improves?
> 
> As for water - Honestly I don't know, I live in Manchester and I just use tap water that is filtered. Should I be buying mineral water?


If you are under-extracting, you would grind finer (tried that, not working) or pull the shot longer (2.5:1, 3:1...). Sticking at 50% ratio is limiting your extraction & you don't appear to have the ability to fine tune the grind with the Hario Slim. You can underextract at any brew ratio.


----------



## ShaunChris

Hey guys, more updates:



*
Temperature*

I am kindly getting a milk to perfection thermometer loaned to me, so I will be able to do a test to check the temperature of the water my machine is outputting - That will help determine if there is a problem with the water temperature.

*Water Statistics*



*
*



> *Analysis*
> 
> Typical ValueUK/EU limitUnits*Hardness Level*Very Soft*Hardness Clarke*2.100Clarke*Aluminium*
> 
> [TD=class: nobordleft]200µg Al/l *Calcium*9.37mg Ca/l*Residual chlorine - Total*0.74mg/l*Residual chlorine - Free*0.70mg/l*Coliform bacteria*00number/100ml*Colour*
> 
> [TD=class: nobordleft]20mg/l Pt/Co scale *Conductivity*87.62500uS/cm at 20oC*Copper*
> 
> [TD=class: nobordleft]2mg Cu/l *E.coli*00number/100ml*Iron*
> 
> [TD=class: nobordleft]200µg Fe/l *Lead*
> 
> [TD=class: nobordleft]10µg Pb/l *Magnesium*1.60mg Mg/l*Manganese*1.6350µg Mn/l*Nitrate*1.6150mg NO3/l*Sodium*8.25200mg Na/l


*"Have you ever had an espresso from a coffee house?"*



*
*

Yes I have, I've recently had NUDE Roaster's East Blend, a double shot espresso from Idle Hands in Manchester.

It was somewhat sour though - Not sure if it was just a one-off thing.

However I have heard that other people (Aaron) have had non-sour espresso from the East Blend, so I can only conclude that it was probably just a one-off sour espresso shot.

What *should* an espresso taste like?

*Further Steps*

I will be attempting to pull longer shots these days to see if this makes a visible difference.


----------



## Mrboots2u

ShaunChris said:


> Hey guys, more updates:
> 
> What *should* an espresso taste like?


Err not sure anyone can tell you this


----------



## ShaunChris

Mrboots2u said:


> Err not sure anyone can tell you this


I didn't really expect an answer from the majority, but because Froggystyle asked me "Have you ever had an espresso from a coffee house?", I was wondering if he had something specific to share about that.

I hear a lot of things about good espresso. Creamy, rich, velvety, thick, syrupy, "mouthfeel", intense, strong, flavourful, and a lot other words.

Unfortunately, my own espressos only taste: Sour, Tangy, Tart, sometimes Thin, Unsatisfying, Not Rich At All but giving a very "flat" sour flavour that resides on your tongue for several moments after you drink it.

Therefore I conclude my espressos are definitely off - I'm not sure what they're *supposed* to taste like, but I know what they *aren't* supposed to taste like.


----------



## froggystyle

I was just curious if you had ever had an espresso before, i had never tried one when i purchased my classic so had no idea what it was really supposed to taste like.

My gut feeling to all your problems is down to the grinder, some may disagree but i think its the weakest link if you are getting the temp/dose and timings right.

I would maybe suggest speaking to someone who lives near you with some gear, pop over and try an espresso and see how yours compares, pick up some tips maybe.


----------



## Mrboots2u

ShaunChris said:


> I didn't really expect an answer from the majority, but because Froggystyle asked me "Have you ever had an espresso from a coffee house?", I was wondering if he had something specific to share about that.
> 
> I hear a lot of things about good espresso. Creamy, rich, velvety, thick, syrupy, "mouthfeel", intense, strong, flavourful, and a lot other words.
> 
> Unfortunately, my own espressos only taste: Sour, Tangy, Tart, sometimes Thin, Unsatisfying, Not Rich At All but giving a very "flat" sour flavour that resides on your tongue for several moments after you drink it.
> 
> Therefore I conclude my espressos are definitely off - I'm not sure what they're *supposed* to taste like, but I know what they *aren't* supposed to taste like.


Your making espresso with the cheapest grinder / machine combo there is

Im not saying this precludes making tasty shots at all, but its will be hard to hit the high notes that a commercial grinder does with a hario....

Buying equipment wont gaurentee amazing espresso either .....espresso is hard ...peiple with £1000's of worth of kit , still might not enjoy it naked , and drink it with milk .

This isnt a go at anyone , its just espresso is such an intense drink , that some people never get to like it on its own

Your limited to pulling longer shots ( with the hario settings and consistency ) so your not gonna get that gloopy mouthfeel to some degree from these...sorry

Have you ever tried brewed coffee , why start with espresso may i ask


----------



## ShaunChris

> Your making espresso with the cheapest grinder / machine combo there is
> 
> Im not saying this precludes makign tasty shots at all, but its will be hard to hot the high notes that a commercial grinder does with a hario....
> 
> Your limited to pulling longer shots , so your not gonna get that gloopy mouthfeel to some degree from these...
> 
> Have you ever tried brewed coffee , why start with espresso may i ask


Yep, I know. Student on a budget.

However I've got my eyes on either a Gaggia Classic of a Silvia with the PID upgrade, so that will eliminate the need and randomness of temp surfing.

In terms of grinder, currently I'm making do with a Hario Mini Mill, but within 2 weeks I will be getting a Gaggia MDF from a friend.

It's free, but he's not sure if it's working, so we'll have to see how it goes - If it's not working I will have to shell out for a Mazzer.

I've tried brewed coffee with an Aeropress. Thing is, I love lattes.

The Aeropress wasn't giving me enough of a "kick" in making lattes. I have to admit that the appeal of making coffee via an Aeropress, for me, wasn't quite there.

I know I could have gotten a Moka pot, but to be honest from my research, I found that most people recommended getting an espresso machine for milk-based drinks, especially lattes - So, here I am with an espresso machine. =)


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Decent grinder will make all the difference.


----------



## Mrboots2u

ShaunChris said:


> Yep, I know. Student on a budget.
> 
> However I've got my eyes on either a Gaggia Classic of a Silvia with the PID upgrade, so that will eliminate the need and randomness of temp surfing.
> 
> In terms of grinder, currently I'm making do with a Hario Mini Mill, but within 2 weeks I will be getting a Gaggia MDF from a friend.
> 
> It's free, but he's not sure if it's working, so we'll have to see how it goes - If it's not working I will have to shell out for a Mazzer.
> 
> I've tried brewed coffee with an Aeropress. Thing is, I love lattes.
> 
> The Aeropress wasn't giving me enough of a "kick" in making lattes. I have to admit that the appeal of making coffee via an Aeropress, for me, wasn't quite there.
> 
> I know I could have gotten a Moka pot, but to be honest from my research, I found that most people recommended getting an espresso machine for milk-based drinks, especially lattes - So, here I am with an espresso machine. =)


Ok

so neat espresso and a latte and different beasts in the cup ......

Grinder will help

where are you based


----------



## ShaunChris

Hey Kid and Mr Boots,

As mentioned I'm getting a Gaggia MDF from a friend in 2 weeks.

Do you think that'll be a decent enough grinder?

I can replace the burrs if they are worn out - Not sure if it's even working to begin with though.

Mr Boots,

I'm based in Manchester, why?


----------



## Mrboots2u

ShaunChris said:


> Hey Kid and Mr Boots,
> 
> As mentioned I'm getting a Gaggia MDF from a friend in 2 weeks.
> 
> Do you think that'll be a decent enough grinder?
> 
> I can replace the burrs if they are worn out - Not sure if it's even working to begin with though.
> 
> Mr Boots,
> 
> I'm based in Manchester, why?


Plenty of good cafe there to try an espresso

Im in Lancaster also , am happy to show you what limited skills i have


----------



## ShaunChris

Mrboots2u said:


> Plenty of good cafe there to try an espresso
> 
> Im in Lancaster also , am happy to show you what limited skills i have


I'm actually sitting in Idle Hands right now.

They use Nude's East Blend and I don't know about their espressos but their lattes are pretty good, so... Heh.

Nice to know! I'm gonna keep tuning my machine and my skills, if I'm still banging my head on a brick wall a couple of weeks now, I'll give you a holler and maybe we can set something up!


----------



## The Systemic Kid

ShaunChris said:


> Hey Kid and Mr Boots,
> 
> As mentioned I'm getting a Gaggia MDF from a friend in 2 weeks.
> 
> Do you think that'll be a decent enough grinder?
> 
> I can replace the burrs if they are worn out - Not sure if it's even working to begin with though.


Certainly an improvement on a hand grinder if the burrs are in good nick. It's a stepped grinder but that shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## ShaunChris

Hey Kid,

Stepped grinder means the adjustment moves in pre-set steps, right?

And stepless means you sorta just shift the adjustment, so you literally have freedom down to millimeter, right?

So if the steps are small enough, then it's pretty close to stepless, right?


----------



## Mrboots2u

ShaunChris said:


> I'm actually sitting in Idle Hands right now.
> 
> They use Nude's East Blend and I don't know about their espressos but their lattes are pretty good, so... Heh.
> 
> Nice to know! I'm gonna keep tuning my machine and my skills, if I'm still banging my head on a brick wall a couple of weeks now, I'll give you a holler and maybe we can set something up!


try an espresso


----------



## The Systemic Kid

ShaunChris said:


> They use Nude's East Blend and I don't know about their espressos but their lattes are pretty good, so... Heh.


Pop into North Tea Power - think they use a HasBean blend. Also try Takk and Grindsmiths on Deansgate. Try an espresso in each place and see what tickles your taste buds.


----------



## ShaunChris

Mrboots2u said:


> try an espresso


Haha I'm done for today, I've had 3 doubleshot lattes today and I'm feeling the buzz already.

I'll try it the next time. But I was just in here last week and I had a doubleshot espresso - Tasted thick, rich but definitely had quite a strong sour tang.

I'm guessing it was just a one-time "something went wrong" thing............. But I'll try their espresso next time again and see how it goes.

I'll also be trying North Tea Power sometime soon, I hear they use Square Mile Red Brick beans for their espresso, so that's something I definitely want to try.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

ShaunChris said:


> Hey Kid,
> 
> Stepped grinder means the adjustment moves in pre-set steps, right?
> 
> And stepless means you sorta just shift the adjustment, so you literally have freedom down to millimeter, right?
> 
> So if the steps are small enough, then it's pretty close to stepless, right?


You've got 39 incremental steps on the MDF. Stepless adjustment is always preferred but the stepped MDF should be able to turn out a decent espresso on the Classic once dialled in.


----------



## ShaunChris

Fantastic, looking forward to receiving it.

Hey, any idea how do I tell if the burrs are worn out?

From what I hear my friend didn't use it much, so the burrs shouldn't be worn out at all, but how do I check?


----------



## Mrboots2u

ShaunChris said:


> Haha I'm done for today, I've had 3 doubleshot lattes today and I'm feeling the buzz already.
> 
> I'll try it the next time. But I was just in here last week and I had a doubleshot espresso - Tasted thick, rich but definitely had quite a strong sour tang.
> 
> I'm guessing it was just a one-time "something went wrong" thing............. But I'll try their espresso next time again and see how it goes.
> 
> I'll also be trying North Tea Power sometime soon, I hear they use Square Mile Red Brick beans for their espresso, so that's something I definitely want to try.


Defo try NTP and Red Brick the current blend is really nice , at home ive got peachy and sweet as espresso

Remember how you taste wont be the same as the next person , your sour could be my super.....etc.....


----------



## The Systemic Kid

When you get the grinder, remove and clean the burrs and inspect for any damage or pitting on the cutting edge. When you run your finger tip across the burrs, should feel like it does when you do same over a sharp knife.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

froggystyle said:


> I was just curious if you had ever had an espresso before, i had never tried one when i purchased my classic so had no idea what it was really supposed to taste like.


Same for me, I thought I'd had a good espresso.

it's a fairly steep learning curve


----------



## MWJB

ShaunChris said:


> Hey guys, more updates:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> **Water Statistics*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> .*


 

*
Your water's no good. By some Volvic & bottle of Fiji & compare.*


----------



## aaroncornish

MWJB said:


> Your water's no good. By some Volvic & bottle of Fiji & compare.


Oh dear. My water is largely the same. Time to get to waitrose


----------



## ShaunChris

aaroncornish said:


> Oh dear. My water is largely the same. Time to get to waitrose


I might see you there Aaron! =P


----------



## jlarkin

Has anybody worked out the perfect village for "coffee water" from the tap (does it exist?) and then done the cost analysis against a lifetime supply of mineral/bottled water? If not, why not... That's what I say. Anyway then we take it over, rename it coffee forums, Glenn is the mayor etc.


----------



## risky

What exactly constitutes the perfect water anyway? Mine is pretty soft, 30 or so TDS but I'm not sure of any other specifics.


----------



## aaroncornish

I suspect we might be venturing down another water rabbit hole. Might be best to leave water specifics to another thread so as not to dilute (get it) ShaunChris's original thread.


----------



## MWJB

aaroncornish said:


> I suspect we might be venturing down another water rabbit hole. Might be best to leave water specifics to another thread so as not to dilute (get it) ShaunChris's original thread.


Not really, grinder mashes up the beans, machine provides temp & flow, but it is actually the water that does the bulk of the work.

Volvic is a reasonable datum, fair extracting power, low calcium (re scaling), Fiji is a bit harder but will make less acidic coffee (all else being equal), may err on bland/creamy side, but can help reduce sourness.

Machine & grinder are great, but can only do what they do in the context of extraction, they can't change the physical properties of other matter, like water. They can certainly be limited by it.

If you have soft water and can't get past thin sour coffee, try pulling very short shots, maybe ~1.2:1, deliberately underextract further to avoid sourness.


----------



## garydyke1

ShaunChris said:


> I'll also be trying North Tea Power sometime soon, I hear they use Square Mile Red Brick beans for their espresso, so that's something I definitely want to try.


Maybe as guest. Their main blend is a custom blend called deer hunter


----------



## garydyke1

Espresso is only 2 ingredients and coffee isn't the highest proportion of the end result , don't bury your head in the sand about the main one .


----------



## jlarkin

risky said:


> What exactly constitutes the perfect water anyway? Mine is pretty soft, 30 or so TDS but I'm not sure of any other specifics.


I think Xpenno is the expert on water (but others could well be also, no offence intended to you aquaboffins) and this is his blog, seems to have a good summary of things if you're interested: http://grindscience.com/

Yours is perhaps too soft...


----------



## NickdeBug

If we have some water experts on this thread, how does this look:

View attachment 14211


----------



## garydyke1

NickdeBug said:


> If we have some water experts on this thread, how does this look:
> 
> View attachment 14211


Its hard . This is dilute-able 'if' needed : )

We don't see the calcium v magnesium listed, or bicarb. So we don't know a great deal really.

Make three coffees identically :

1. 100% tap

2. 100% waitrose

3. 50/50 of each

which one tastes preferable ?


----------



## NickdeBug

Thanks Gary

yes, it is indeed hard. The joys of living in the Cotswolds!

Severn trent didn't supply the Ca or Mg data, but I am assuming pretty high bearing in mind the big lump of limestone that we live on.

I have been running through a combo of Brita and the Sage tank filter. Might start buying some Waitrose Essential.

Cheers


----------

