# Sage Barista Express - alternatives



## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

Hello kind people with good taste









I saw Sage Barista Express in real life, the other day, and really liked it. But before I fork out half a grand, I wanted to find out *how does Sage BE compare with other machines* in that price range?

From threads in the Sage section, I figured that it's not a bad machine with some minor issues, but I wonder if anyone has less than superficial experience with other machines as well as Sage BE and willing to share.

Currently I am enjoying the coffee via various brew methods, and espresso based black coffees from the shops. I intend to continue to enjoy coffee from brew, and wonered if the grinder in Sage BE is ok for V60, cafetier, etc. I had Gaggia Titanium previously, which required much less knowledge of coffee making compared to Sage BE.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hmm persoanlly i wouldnt want to be dialling a grinder back and forth from espresso to filter. You can probably get a decent ish brew from it , its just not always an ideal work flow . Although i think there are clear markings on the Sage grinder to remember where you are, so it might not be the worst solution .

You are going to ask what other people do , and the answer is have two grinders ( in alot of cases a hand grinder for filter, )


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The other caveat is that you will end up having to purge some beans through the grinder each time you go from one to another ( this is presuming you are going to use what ever is in the hopper for both filer and brewed ) . this would be so you dont get the retained coffee at say brewed coffee setting in you espresso ground which will effect the taste of the coffee.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I'll say up front I have never used or seen the inside of a sage Barista express but I have seen the internals of more expensive sage machines. the fact that I have not easily been able to find internal photos should tell you something. I do have extensive experience of many many other machines though. What I am not going to do is compare it with other machines in that price range, what I am going to do is try and give you a few things to think about. if I offend anyone with a sage BE, I'll apologise now.

The machine seems to retail for around £480, there is loads of fantastic marketing, great photos, accessories that look fantastic and some big names umming and ahhing over it. it's generally positioned against, attractive, hip or knowledgeable people. they absolutely are pushing every marketing button they can. Of course this costs money...an expense that doesn't go into the machine. An integrated grinder seems great but a basic entry level espresso grinder costs at least £280-300, the machine only costs £480. It's made in china, obviously they would use the cheapest possible components to keep the price down.

Will it work OK, to an extent, yes. Will it last a long time...probably not, at least not in the way I would expect and I also wouldn't expect the resale to be great after 3 or 4 years. The whole thing is a bit like the cheap wine theory...buy wine for £4 and you get 20p worth of wine....buy a bottle for 8 and you might get 90p worth of wine....it's something like that anyway.

If it's all you can (or want to) spend, or it's all you want.....then it's a good purchase. However, you might want to think about spending more...depending on what you really want.


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## Dumnorix (Dec 29, 2017)

I previously owned the BE and it served a useful purpose- I was using it in an office environment where space was very limited, and so I needed a machine with a very small footprint- I just couldn't have fitted in a separate grinder/ espresso machine. However, if you have a bit more room then I think a separate grinder would be the way to go. I never used to leave any beans in the hopper as I found they went stale very quickly- I know there is meant to be insulation between the thermocoil and the hopper but I'm not sure how effective it is. The BE will make relatively good coffee- definitely a step up from the Delonghi/ Dualit etc machines in the Argos catalogue- but I found again that the grinder was the weak link and the coffee did improve once I paired it with a Mazzer Mini grinder, before eventually selling it and upgrading to the Sage dual boiler. If you look after it (regular clean and descale and ideally use only bottled/ filtered water) it should last fairly well, but I'm sure the e61 group machines (look at Expobar, Profitec, ECM, Lelit, Quick Mill among others) will last a huge amount longer and will be built with much better components, although will cost significantly more. Lelit seem to do some machines with integrated grinders if you're certain you want to go that route- not sure if Dave C has reviewed any but he will be the man to advise you, as I know nothing in comparison









In all honesty I would buy a decent grinder first, continue to enjoy brewed coffee, and then save for a more expensive machine.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

You wont want to use the BE grinder for anything other than espresso - it has a restricted setting range for that. You would also find it difficult to grind into anything other than a portafilter. The range could be restricted even more for espresso going on beans that I have used but it doesn't pay to compare grinder A with B on the basis of the number of steps. The separate grinders like these are generally intended for all methods.

The grinder in it as with the Sage Grinder Pro is essentially similar to what is used in many bean to cup machines. Small conical burrs. They are sharp and well finished. In some respect especially clumping the arrangement in the BE is better than the SGP. There is some commonality in the adjustment mechanisms. One can drive a worm wheel further round than the other.

The grind retention in these grinders is pretty low. There is a degree of permanent retention that I am pretty sure they create on purpose to avoid wearing plastic parts out but cross over when beans are changed is low. There might be a taste change over 2 shots when beans are changed. If used a few times daily I don't think there is any need to worry about retention and if not just a few grams need to be run through to get rid of any stale ones.

I've put a number of kg of beans through mine. Some criticisms I would put down to me. I didn't realise that the maximum brewing pressure that can be seen on the gauge is 15bar. I used the single basket a lot and found that this pressure was needed along with a strong bean to get the size of drinks I make. Those are rather large.







Brewing with that pressure using the double basket produced very strong drinks. What I should have done using that was take more notice of the readings suggested in the manual that comes with it. Not that people need to stick to those all of the time. The basic idea is to get a drink that the drinker likes not stick to some dedicated formulae - the manual is a bit excessive in that area.

The only serious problem for me was available filter basket sizes. There are the 2 that come with it and it's possible to modify certain other ones that are around. The 2 that come with it cope with around 10g and 18g of grinds with nothing in between. There are more sizes available for machines that use full sized 58mm baskets that can be used on then without modification.

Would some one fresh buy one and get perfect drinks right from the start that tasted the same all of the time? Doubtful. They need to realise that they must keep the quantity of grinds that go in pretty constant and tune to taste. That's a combination of quantity of coffee, grinder setting and the amount of fluid produced. A timer on a grinder wont do that reliably so will need adjusting now and again. People also need to realise that when a grinder is being adjusted for tuning a drink that some grinds have to be disposed of to get rid of the previous settings grinds.

I think that the BE has to be viewed on it's merits. It's generally reckoned that all Sage machines can produce decent drinks. All of them heat up quickly which is important to some. Reckon on 20 to 30min on conventional machines depending on type. The BE and DTP are down to 30 sec but it is best to preheat the portafilter some how. The DB is about 3min, extremely quick for a dual boiler machine.

So what else can be bought for usually a bit under £500? I feel it sets a pretty high level for that amount of cash. I went BE because I wanted hot water. Some would use a kettle. I prefer to keep the water in the tank turning over.

Resale price if you sell a BE. They are typically around £300+ used if the box etc is kept and the seller is prepared to ship it and look after it while they own it.

Lakeland sell them with a 3 year warrantee - if that's still offered it's a bit silly buying elsewhere.

John

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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

Thanks @DavecUK for taking time to lay it out for me. I might need a dumber version







in places to fully understand.



DavecUK said:


> the fact that I have not easily been able to find internal photos should tell you something.


It doesn't







is it so great that nobody felt the need to open the machine and take a photo with question why is it broke? or is it so crap that nobody felt proud enough to show off terrible inside?



DavecUK said:


> The machine seems to retail for around £480, there is loads of fantastic marketing, great photos, accessories that look fantastic and some big names umming and ahhing over it. it's generally positioned against, attractive, hip or knowledgeable people. they absolutely are pushing every marketing button they can. Of course this costs money...an expense that doesn't go into the machine. An integrated grinder seems great but a basic entry level espresso grinder costs at least £280-300, the machine only costs £480. It's made in china, obviously they would use the cheapest possible components to keep the price down.


Extra price to cover marketing, makes sense. Cheap parts because it is made in China, is not always true. So, are there machines outthere of the same or betterquality, which did not spend money on selebrities and thus are cheaper?

I think your standards are quite high, compared to my ability to taste the difference, perhaps. I thought Baratza Encore or Wilfa Precision are just about OK as entry level grinders, just stretching to espresso grounds, but they are just over 100 quid. I guess grinder in Sage BE has to be a bit better? I do accept, however that my espresso experience is that from the shops who have way better equipment that discussed in this thread, so I may well be able to taste the difference, once I try BE. Thank you for your warning, I shall try to actually taste the sample beans made with BE, if I can.



DavecUK said:


> Will it work OK, to an extent, yes. Will it last a long time...probably not, at least not in the way I would expect and I also wouldn't expect the resale to be great after 3 or 4 years. The whole thing is a bit like the cheap wine theory...buy wine for £4 and you get 20p worth of wine....buy a bottle for 8 and you might get 90p worth of wine....it's something like that anyway.
> 
> If it's all you can (or want to) spend, or it's all you want.....then it's a good purchase. However, you might want to think about spending more...depending on what you really want.


How much more







? I am trying not to spend more than I can currently appreciate, with a view that it will last some years (4?) by which time I'll get better at the coffee game, perhaps richer too







with more space in the kitchen. Hence, somewhat annoyingly silly questions, sorry :/ The wine theory totally makes sense though, the cheaper the thing the more of the price is the overhead rather than product, but I was hoping that BE is more like £10 wine, looking at the prices of some espresso machines


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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Hmm persoanlly i wouldnt want to be dialling a grinder back and forth from espresso to filter. You can probably get a decent ish brew from it , its just not always an ideal work flow . Although i think there are clear markings on the Sage grinder to remember where you are, so it might not be the worst solution .
> 
> You are going to ask what other people do , and the answer is have two grinders ( in alot of cases a hand grinder for filter, )


There are markings on Sage grinder, but I am not sure how forgiving is the extraction to slight variation in grounds, new to this. Thanks for the comment, I am slowly accepting that I'll need 2 grinders.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

> It doesn't
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It means that anyone reviewing it, didn't bother to take the case off and look at the quality, examine how it works and properly understand it. How can someone tell you it's good if they really don't understand it or look inside it....that they take the manufacturers word for it? If you want to trust what the reviewer is saying, don't you want all the facts.



> Extra price to cover marketing, makes sense. Cheap parts because it is made in China, is not always true. So, are there machines outthere of the same or betterquality, which did not spend money on selebrities and thus are cheaper?


I'm married to a Chinese girl and I do understand the mentality out there. When a business makes something it many happily save a penny if it can, even if it means the product will fall apart after the warranty...it's really hard to keep a good business relationship in China. Just think of all the quality stuff they make. It doesn't mean stuff made in Germany or Italy is necessarily better, but I would have a bit more faith in it.



> I think your standards are quite high, compared to my ability to taste the difference, perhaps. I thought Baratza Encore or Wilfa Precision are just about OK as entry level grinders, just stretching to espresso grounds, but they are just over 100 quid. I guess grinder in Sage BE has to be a bit better? I do accept, however that my espresso experience is that from the shops who have way better equipment that discussed in this thread, so I may well be able to taste the difference, once I try BE. Thank you for your warning, I shall try to actually taste the sample beans made with BE, if I can.


You are absolutely right, but they are my standards, not yours....that's fine. You asked a question, I simply tried to give you an answer. It's cheap, but I am not sure it's great value for money. It's not about standards, but more about what you will end up with. I think it's one of those situations, where unless you have to, it might be worth considering spending a bit more and getting separate machines, perhaps a used grinder of far superior quality and even a used machine. You might surprise yourself with what you can taste.

Sometimes that old expression penny wise pound foolish springs to mind. I remember at uni (a long time ago now) a mate purchased a music centre and spend more money than me. I got ex demo and used separates. Sanyo receiver, Marantz tape deck, cant remember who made speakers (they were good ones), and a Sansui deck....before the end of Uni, my mates music centre was junk, part of it failed and it was thrown away before the end of his course...plus it never sounded that good. I bought used and ex demo, spent the same amount of money. my stuff sounded much better and 4 years later I sold some of it and got some other stuff at a Hi Fi shop.......the tape deck and record player I continued to use for around 10 years and the receiver went to my parents and lasted 20 years. You can't beat better quality, you can enjoy more it while you have it and you have it longer.

It's the same with espresso machines....it's not about how much you spend, it's about the quality of what you have and what it can do for you.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The inside of a Barista Express









It is actually rather well made with plenty of attention to detail. It also shows why things get made in various places in the far east. There is a hefty amount of labour needed to put things like this together. It's connected to the mains and this sets the standard of work that has to be put into lots of items that people buy. The group behind Sage make a rather wide range if items like this so they do need to be well aware of what they need to do. Some machine makers may have a more lenient view.

I took the lid off to fully clean the grinder. There isn't any need to do that but curiosity ruled.

All of that wiring - it's a result of what's in there. PID, 3 way valve plus it's a fully automatic espresso machine. It may even have a flow meter in it. That's one area on the machine that would need a lot more dismantling to find out. The electronics on this model are well tucked away from the wet stuff - info gained from an ebay shot where some one was selling one in bits. They appear to be fully covered actually.







In some ways that area looks to be better than the DB.

How long will the machines last - very difficult to answer. As some one sells them with a 3 year warrantee I'd suspect longer than that. They look to sell pretty easily as used. What ever the time is it can probably be extended by servicing at some interval. Some commercial machines have servicing kits available where a number of things are replaced but I have no idea how often this needs to be done. The idea of servicing is to prevent failure not something that gets done when something has broke. I assume that when machines are serviced professionally all sorts of areas are checked and replaced as needed. Sage - people use them until they misbehave.

John

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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

@ajohn thanks for the detailed answer, lots to process. also for the pic. I am sure I'll come up with more silly questions


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Beanedict said:


> @ajohn thanks for the detailed answer, lots to process. also for the pic. I am sure I'll come up with more silly questions


With espresso machines you take your pick and that's about it really.







Then you live with it. Some have advantages over others - or should have - and some cost more than others. It's much the same with grinders except they do need to be able to grind to espresso levels.

People can spend all most as much as they like - price a Slayer Espresso machine for instance. It's much the same with grinders.

Where things get difficult is taste. One problem with that is how the coffee is brewed has a pretty direct bearing on that. One particular style of machine may tend to produce a different taste to others. Some machines have infusion, how that is done can vary. Some machines don't have infusion. Some have PID some don't and so it goes on.

John

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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

It took me a while to read up on new terminology and concepts that appeared in the answers to my original question. The more I learn the less I feel that I know







I have 2 additional questions for now.

1. 54mm vs 58mm portafilter is no difference as far as ican see, apart from channeling issues are less on 54mm due to diamater/depth ratio and all the recipes and tips are usually for 58mm, so one has to recalculate/discard those tips.

2. What's the deal with Breville vs Sage?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

There may also be disadvantages to a 53 Vs 58mm....can you think of any?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Beanedict said:


> 2. What's the deal with Breville vs Sage?


Breville sold the ownership of their brand in Europe back in 1982 so they market their wares as Sage over here.


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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> There may also be disadvantages to a 53 Vs 58mm....can you think of any?


I don't know, so 53(54?)mm sized parts is harder to find/replace? also your grinder has to be able to cope with 53mm portafilters.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The main problem with Sage's small portafilter is basket sizes. Something a lot don't worry about. La Spaziale will fit but need modification - the diameter of the rims on them is too large so one way or the other has to be reduced. They tend to hold a lot more coffee than the Spaz. sizes suggest. The baskets that come from Sage are just 2 sizes 10g and about 18. I modified a Spaz pod basket for mine to get something in the middle - holds about 14g. I have a lathe so just mounted it that and then used a file to reduce the diameter of the rim. A Spaz 14g double very probably holds a lot more than the Sage double,

More sizes are available for the DB that uses E61 sized baskets but once again they hold more coffee than their weights would suggest. I'm using a 12g basket, it holds around 15g on my DB.

Where I went wrong on the BE with it's supplied baskets as using the single basket for my rather large long blacks, they are over 12oz. It can be done with strong beans but only by brewing with the pressure guage well up with the over pressure valve just about opening. That's close to 15bar way more than the 8 or so Sage show in the manual. I tried using the double like that - result coffee that was way too strong with just about any bean.







What I should have done is set a coarser grind and a lower pressure.

To be honest if available I would get my hand on any available sensible basket sizes and feel that Sage are being rather silly not producing more for all of their machines.In real terms it's an area not covered that well on any make of machine. Some people buy VST baskets that come in a number of sizes and I'd guess just like me they finish up using a none standard size that suites what they drink. A lot more just stick with standard sizes or IMHO get sucked into a certain make that seems to offer a wider range of filling weights and wont in practice.

John

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John

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Beanedict said:


> I don't know, so 53(54?)mm sized parts is harder to find/replace? also your grinder has to be able to cope with 53mm portafilters.


True the range of accessories is not as widespread and I had not thought about the grinder issues.

The other one is this.........size differences greatly exaggerated simply to make it easier to mentally visualise the variables.









So there may be another disadvantage, or it might be an advantage, either way, it's different and I suspect (well in fact I am totally sure) no one calculated this at the end of the day when the designs came out. Even if they did for the flow rates, temperatures and volumes of coffee making today, things have changed. I didn't even mention any temperature gradient within the puck....or any pressure gradient differences (which would logically exist). This is because I am not sure how large the effects would be

My personal thinking is it's better to have the slightly finer grind and less water through each unit part of the coffee, than slightly coarser grind and more water through each unit part....but again I would guess there must be a sweet spot. I don't know if that's 53,54, 58 60 or 62 etc.. It's just stuff I sit and think/wonder about sometimes?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Breville is Breville as far as I am aware. The espresso machines and some other items they make are sold under the Sage banner in the UK and I think in Oz. I also think another name was used in Germany but that changed fairly recently. Berville is an Oz company.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breville








Who ever own what seems to go back to this lot. They have a distribution warehouse in the UK and some spares seem to come from there now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breville_Group

Breville also sell some items under their own name. I also suspect that the Sage UK web site is now an arm of a global Breville Group one.

Sage grinders come with a holder for their 53mm portafilter. This size could also be used on some other grinders but it might be worth checking. I just stuck one on my Mazzer - it centres under the funnel more accurately than the larger DB one does thanks to it having 3 ears rather than the usual 2. It can't be used on my Ceado as it wont fit the fork. They foul on the spouts on the portafilter. Some grinders us a hands free hook type approach the third ear would cause problems with that but also with filling funnels some use to make sure that all of the grinds do go into the filter basket. A bottomless DB portafilter causes problems on my Mazzer grinder. I've had to add 2 small plastic stick on thingies to prevent it moving about when the grinder is running - also to get the portafilter centred under the funnel. That's a loose run down on life making coffee. Perhaps the main thing with a grinder that is being used with a timer is the ability to be able to pause it so that nice piles of fluffy grounds can be tapped down and then the rest added. Mazzer timer grinders don't have this facility and neither does the BE. On the BE the best option can be to set it to produce 1/2 a dose. Depends on how big the pile of grounds is.

John

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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

@DavecUK I agree that there are many parameters to think about, but, as you say, how important is the difference? Can I even taste it? I'd think that the size of grounds and pressure difference between 53 and 58 are the main factore, if you want to keep the time the same. But something tells me that flow rate will have to be different for those sizes to get the same kind extraction, keeping the size of grounds and pressure the same.

As to temperature/pressure gradients, I'd say that the extraction is fast enough to be treated as adiobatic process and slow enough to be treated as isobaric process







so shapes dont matter for that kind of diamater variation? now if we had a 5mm portafilter with very deep basket...









but the channeling would be an issue for a rookie like me, I guess.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Beanedict said:


> 1. 54mm vs 58mm portafilter is no difference as far as ican see, apart from channeling issues are less on 54mm due to diamater/depth ratio and all the recipes and tips are usually for 58mm, so one has to recalculate/discard those tips.


Recipes are somewhere between a rock and a hard place. A better view of a recipe is that some one has a particular bean. There are lots of different ones available that are also fresh roasted. There are also several different types of machine available. The BE for instance can brew over a wider pressure range than any other that I am aware of just as it comes without any "setting" changes. It also has infusion and PID. All of these factors will have an effect on taste. It's a thermoblock machine that might and probably does produce a different temperature profile during brewing to say a machine that uses a boiler and PID. There are even 2 types of boiler machines available and even the sizes of the boilers vary - that is very likely to alter the temperature profile during a brew.

It all makes reading some one else's recipe a bit tricky as it's unlikely to generate the same taste. A wide spread recipe is 30 sec extraction times and 30ml / 30g for a single and 60ml for a double. You may come across another 25ml 25 sec etc. The Sage manuals stick to the 30ml etc one and mention over extraction and under extraction if people deviate from these suggesting that people just shouldn't deviate at all so people buy a machine and a bean and it isn't that unusual for them not to like the taste of what comes out. The sensible thing to do then is to vary the numbers not throw the beans away and try some other type. There is even a name around for these shots. Ristrotto = less comes out and lungo = more comes out







depending on who you believe. I favour more water through the portafilter, it seems to be the correct definition. These variations can be obtained by changing either the time or the grind. As most commercial machines tend to produce volume related shots changing time makes most sense but currently for instance I drink what should be called a lungo with a brew time of 30sec that finishes up in a long black.There aren't any rules really. What I do produces the taste that I like with the bean I am using. I could produce a lungo the other way, finer grind and a longer shot time. My wife doesn't like my drink so for her I shorten the shot time to 20 secs and she does like that. There is a very distinct change in taste and not so much as some one might expect in strength.








The biggest problem is that it can take a number of shots to find out the best way to brew a bean if the usual 1 to 2 ratio in 30 sec doesn't work out. To be honest I find it often doesn't.

John

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## GeorgeR (Oct 21, 2018)

Playing with pressure and cup size adjustment shows that it has has a flowmeter in it. It looks pretty consistent regardless of the pressure and the flow rate.


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## GeorgeR (Oct 21, 2018)

ajohn said:


> The main problem with Sage's small portafilter is basket sizes. Something a lot don't worry about. La Spaziale will fit but need modification - the diameter of the rims on them is too large so one way or the other has to be reduced. They tend to hold a lot more coffee than the Spaz. sizes suggest. The baskets that come from Sage are just 2 sizes 10g and about 18. I modified a Spaz pod basket for mine to get something in the middle - holds about 14g. I have a lathe so just mounted it that and then used a file to reduce the diameter of the rim. A Spaz 14g double very probably holds a lot more than the Sage double,
> 
> More sizes are available for the DB that uses E61 sized baskets but once again they hold more coffee than their weights would suggest. I'm using a 12g basket, it holds around 15g on my DB.
> 
> ...


How did you manage to come over the ideal pressure -> too fast extraction, ideal time -> too much water problem? Going through or way too high pressure -> sort of OK output and time.

Looks like the filters has too much resistance.


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