# James Gourmet Coffee



## sicknote

Ordered from James Gourmet Coffee for the first time this week and had Formula 6 and Finca Santa Clara Genuine Antigua delivered.

The Formula 6 was good but the Finca Santa is without doubt the worst coffee I have tasted from a premium roaster. It's that bad it's not even funny.

I had a closer look at the beans and can't decide if they actually look worse than they taste, there are not 2 beans the same size or colour in the bag. I have picked out a couple of dozen of the worst beans and took a picture.

Sadly my first and last coffee from this roaster........having worked in the food supply industry for a number of years, this simply isn't good enough.


----------



## Glenn

Have you conveyed your findings to Peter? He'd be interested to hear your comments and the chance to put things right

http://www.jamesgourmetcoffee.com/contact.php


----------



## mike 100

Having used James Gourmet a number of times i have always been very happy with the quality of their beans and service, I am sure they will be more than happy to put things right. Please let us know how you get on

Mike


----------



## sicknote

I have sent two emails and a full size image.


----------



## Edwin

I've had some superb Monsoon Malabar from this company


----------



## stavros

Sicknote, have you had a response from JGC yet?


----------



## sicknote

stavros, yeah they responded this morning.

Peter has been out of the roastery so has been unable to comment on the beans. He will cup them and report back to me when he has the opportunity.

They have also posted a replacement and wish they had the 'opportunity of responding to you before being put in front of the 'firing squad' on the Social Media Networks'

Perhaps I was a little quick in posting my disappointment but it is a coffee forum after all.


----------



## MikeHag

I wouldn't worry too much. We're not exactly a firing squad... there are so many of us on here who know how good James Gourmet Coffee are and are happy to leap to their defence. Those beans did look quite rotten, but they are certainly very atypical of Peter's beans and must have somehow slipped though the Quality Control process somewhere in the supply chain. I mean, The Brewers Cup 2011 used his beans, and they aren't exactly going to choose a bad roaster.

Personally I do think the first port of call should always be a call to the supplier, and only bring it to the forum if the supplier isn't being reasonable.


----------



## sicknote

Replacement coffee arrived today. Was told they would send an extra bag to cover the cost of my return postage, didn't happen. I have now paid postage twice.


----------



## jimrobo

I understand where they are coming from but they should be more embarrassed about sending out a bad batch of beans and want to remedy the situation than be annoyed and complain they got found out by someone who happened to be on a coffee forum.

You can guarantee had it been Steve at hasbean he would have jumped through hoops to remedy the situation.


----------



## MikeHag

sicknote said:


> Replacement coffee arrived today. Was told they would send an extra bag to cover the cost of my return postage, didn't happen. I have now paid postage twice.


Well that sounds embarrassing. What did they say when you called them to tell them they hadn't included the extra bag? Or did you just come directly to the forum again?


----------



## sicknote

Mike, why should I waste money calling them? They said they would cover my postage and didn't. So yes, I posted here directly.


----------



## garydyke1

jimrobo said:


> I understand where they are coming from but they should be more embarrassed about sending out a bad batch of beans and want to remedy the situation than be annoyed and complain they got found out by someone who happened to be on a coffee forum.
> 
> You can guarantee had it been Steve at hasbean he would have jumped through hoops to remedy the situation.


Too right!


----------



## MikeHag

Granted, JGC's attempt to resolve it on this occasion seems poor, but I think it's perfectly reasonable for a supplier to say something like "I wish you'd just spoken to us before complaining on a public forum - we would have been happy to resolve the situation". Just because the supplier says that, it doesn't mean they aren't embarrassed and don't want to remedy the situation, it doesn't mean they are annoyed, and it doesn't mean they 'got found out' as if they were deliberately trying to pull the wool over your eyes. Blimey, maybe this IS the firing squad after all







That's crap.


----------



## garydyke1

I hope this ''crap'' comment wasnt geared towards me as I was referring to this http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?4218-hasbean-recent-orders&p=21429#post21429

''Ive probably had 50+ bags from Hasbean over the years, Ive enjoyed 80-90% but only had 1 single 'tainted' bag which clearly wasnt as intended. I contacted Steve, returned the bag and he sorted me out with a replacement (which was excellent and proved I had a duff bag) & another free bag! ''


----------



## MikeHag

No Gary, I was referring to how crap it is that an established and respected roaster who has been roasting for over a decade and been at the forefront of bringing speciality coffee to the UK should face such a tough crowd. I'd have expected he might be offered more latitude.


----------



## garydyke1

Sure - agreed the process should be speak to the supplier first if they are not helpful then bring to the forum 2nd.

Ive never had any defective beans from JGC or issues with customer serv


----------



## jimrobo

To be honest I don't see any problem posting on here either way about it. There's nothing to stop the roaster coming out with a better reputation with something like this. It's great advertisement for them if the original poster then turns round and says actually they got back to me straight away, confirmed it was an error and sent me a free bag as well as apologising. I'd have added them straight onto my list of regular orders and thought fair play to them. That doesn't seem to have happened in this case for whatever reason and I don't think this is an unfair thread or a firing squad. As a service company they should have seen this thread as an opportunity to showcase their customer service if they've been actively monitoring it.


----------



## MikeHag

What a world, where businesses have to monitor forums and review sites because customers won't get on the phone and tell them directly.


----------



## jimrobo

I don't think we're saying that mike. The original poster did speak to the supplier who clearly wasn't happy about the thread on the forum.

Now I'm not saying he is in the right or the wrong or expressing an opinion on them as a roaster but there was nothing stopping this thread turning out to be a great showcase of how good their customer service was.


----------



## vintagecigarman

MikeHag said:


> What a world, where businesses have to monitor forums and review sites because customers won't get on the phone and tell them directly.


I've watched this thread with some interest. Personally I don't think that the original poster's conduct warrants any criticism. The original post wasn't made in isolation - the issue had been raised with the supplier, and as long as this has been done I feel that it is perfectly acceptable to raise the issue on the forum.

In a situation like this, if the promised remedial/compensatory action hadn't been delivered, I'd have been pretty grumpy myself, and certainly disinclined to make any further contact with the supplier before telling the forum exactly how I had been treated.

I regard the forum as a large village. Pre- internet if I'd had bad service from someone, I'd go out and tell everyone that I knew. And that's all the OP has done here - he's told his friends what has happened (possibly because he's been surprised by what's happened).

Now I know that a supplier can be somewhat disenchanted, because any errors or omissions are displayed to a potentially very wide audience because of the internet. But at the end of the day the supplier also uses the internet to promote his wares to an even larger audience, so things do even out.

And, just how much credence do consumers give to single negative reviews or isolated poor customer service? Not a lot in my opinion. We all ignore the odd bad review of hotels on Trip Adviser and Amazon's product line, and there's a certain espresso machine retailer who would be out of business by now if the public as a whole took any notice of what's on this forum!


----------



## sicknote

MikeHag said:


> No Gary, I was referring to how crap it is that an established and respected roaster who has been roasting for over a decade and been at the forefront of bringing speciality coffee to the UK should face such a tough crowd. I'd have expected he might be offered more latitude.





MikeHag said:


> What a world, where businesses have to monitor forums and review sites because customers won't get on the phone and tell them directly.


Mike, I'm not 100% sure where your going with these posts. You seem to be suggesting speciality coffee roasters should be treated differently than say Tesco when posting about coffee beans in the bean section of the forum. The company was contacted directly about the quality of their beans and an image was sent.

Should we only post good reviews in the bean section if the coffee was supplied by speciality roasters?


----------



## MikeHag

Let's not twist the facts. You did not contact JGC until AFTER you had posted on here. Then when JGC didn't cover your postage costs as promised (which they should have), you did not contact them at all. It's incorrect to claim that you have communicated JGC's mistakes to them.

Where I'm going with it is where I started. If this forum is going to be used to make false statements (which some if the above posts include) that damage suppliers without giving them adequate opportunity to resolve issues then I think that's a big step in the wrong direction.

I've had my say. It doesn't seem that my view is shared by others so I've no more to say on it.


----------



## sicknote

I contacted JGC the day before posting on here using their web contact form asking them the roast date of the coffee as I thought the coffee wasn't fresh. I followed this up with a second email the following day after I had a closer look at the beans and attached the image of the bad beans. It was over the weekend and they responded first thing on Monday. They offered to compensate me for the return postage which they didn't.

What false statements have I made?

I'll ask again. Should we only post good reviews in the bean section if the coffee was supplied by speciality roasters? That seems to be the direction your taking.


----------



## MikeHag

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I can't make it any clearer than I already have so if you don't get my meaning then a further explanation will not help you.


----------



## sicknote

I'm struggling Mike with your comments. It's acceptable for you to post this without contacting Tesco and waiting on their response:

'In reality, "they WERE shit!". Words fail to describe how awful these tasted. Bitter doesn't get anywhere near. And the disgusting taste in my mouth is still persisting about an hour after drinking it. Seriously, steer well clear'

You have ended up attacking me personally accusing me of 'twisting the facts' and making 'false statements' which I haven't done.


----------



## MikeHag

OK... Please let me clarify:

1. There is a big difference between the Tesco post I made and the JGC post you made.

Yours was concerning the handling of a supplier error that was clearly atypical of the usual product. Mine was effectively a product review that was requested by another forum member. Not the same thing.

Yours was related to a small family business where every customer counts. Mine related to Tesco.

Yours will undoubtedly have resulted in some readers now deciding not to buy from JGC, which will materially impact them since they are a small business. Whilst mine might result in some readers not buying the £2.99 Tesco product, it might also result in more people buying their £2.49 product, since despite my not liking it, I actually said it was an acceptable purchase for those on a budget. Will my post have any material impact on Tesco? No, and if it did I think it would be positive not adverse.

2. I am not attacking you personally, but facts are being somewhat twisted - by you and others. I didn't want to quote specific examples but you've asked me to so.. :

(a) In your most recent posts in this thread you are trying to make out that you and someone from JGC had adequate communications before you posted on here... "The company was contacted directly about the quality of their beans and an image was sent." The timing is important, because if I understand correctly you sent them a message, but then posted your complaint on here because you decided you couldn't wait until Monday to take some form of retributory action. Then later you said "why should I waste money calling them?" which seems unnecessarily confrontational.

I think it would have been better if you'd stuck with your earlier sentiment - "Perhaps I was a little quick in posting my disappointment".

(b) from jimrobo

- "they should be more embarrassed"

- "they should ... want to remedy the situation" ...

- claims that JGC were "annoyed and complain{ing}"

- and that they "got found out".

All of these are false statements that twist the perception of what has happened. The way they are each worded conveys a specific message..i.e.:

- "they are not embarrassed"

- "they do not want to remedy the situation"

- "they are annoyed and complaining"

- "they are trying to pull a fast one".

jimrobo - I'm not attacking you either... I'm just quoting you. Maybe you just didn't choose your words very well, but the damage is done and I feel it is important to redress the balance of your choice of words.

3. So do I think speciality roasters should be treated differently from everyone else? No. But I think that each supplier should be treated according to who they are and the reputation they have worked hard to earn, and there isn't a one-size-fits-all when it comes to how flexible or critical we should be with suppliers. Peter Allen is not some fly-by-night wholesaler whacking out high volumes of pre-packaged beans without any care as to the product quality. He is an artisan producer in the true sense of the word, small and bespoke batches, carefully crafted products, with a passion for what he does. I don't think he should be the subject of such immediate distrust as the result of one bad bag of beans that slipped through the net.

4. I am utterly in favour of posting on here if you have had a bad experience with a supplier, taken reasonable steps to resolve it (involving good communication with the supplier), and the supplier has deliberately failed to provide a satisfactory resolution. I think the reason we aren't seeing eye to eye here is that you believe you've taken reasonable steps, and I don't. I would have spoken to JGC before doing anything else... both times. I completely agree with jimrobo that this could have been a showcase of JGC's customer service, and I agree that they have made mistakes, but all of this could have been resolved by picking up the phone and calling JGC, rather than your first reaction being to post on here. You're free to do that of course, I just don't agree that it's the best course of action.

If I've offended anyone with my views on this matter then I'm sorry - that wasn't my intention. I just feel strongly about this and maybe that spills out more than it should.


----------



## jimrobo

The bottom line is they didn't deal with the situation particularly well.

Who the company is doesn't matter at all or how long they've been in business.

The facts are they made 2 mistakes with 1 order

1, sent out a bad batch of beans

2, said they'd send a free batch and they never did

We can debate all day whether telling your customer he did the wrong thing by posting it on a public forum is wrong or not but they had plenty of chances to turn this order into a positive result for them.


----------



## MikeHag

jimrobo said:


> they had plenty of chances to turn this order into a positive result for them.


A can agree with some of what you're saying, Jim, but not this. If they aren't told, they don't have plenty of chances.


----------



## sicknote

Mike, where are you going with this? 'In your most recent posts in this thread you are trying to make out that you and someone from JGC had adequate communications before you posted on here... "The company was contacted directly about the quality of their beans and an image was sent'

I started this topic on here before I got a response from JGC. At no point have I tried to mislead anyone. Your making assumptions and twisting the facts. To suggest a customer should need to contact a supplier and ask for postage to be returned after what happened is ludicrous.

I bought a bag of coffee from a company, posted my thoughts and because you seem to know the guy it seems to have turned personal. On the other hand you absolutely slate another coffee supplier. Over and out, I'm away to trade Barclays.


----------



## vintagecigarman

At the end of all this, I've gone back and re-read the first post on this thread, and it's hard to see what all the fuss is about. Sicknote orders some coffee from a supplier who prides himself in the quality of his produce. The batch he receives turns out to be way below standard. He tells his mates on the forum about his experience.

Was he wrong to do so? Not in my book.

Am I grateful that he flagged up his experience? Yes indeed.

Will it deter me from using JGC? No - plenty of others have sprang to their defence and the product in question may have been a one-off failure. But the first post seems perfectly fair to me.


----------



## MikeHag

To suggest a customer should need to contact a supplier and ask for postage to be returned after what happened is ludicrous.

No it isn't. It's a simple phone call.



sicknote said:


> I bought a bag of coffee from a company, posted my thoughts and because you seem to know the guy it seems to have turned personal.


I don't know him. It isn't personal. I'm just providing a counterbalance to a thread that I see as unnecessarily damning of a supplier when all it would have taken was a phone call.


----------



## 20Eyes

In my view, if people set themselves up as 'gourmet' or 'speciality' they are trading on the basis that their product and service is of a higher quality than the mainstream. If that product and service then fails even to live up to that of the mainsteam then they should expect a harsher critique.

As others have pointed out, the Internet is a massive sales tool for small businesses and good customer comments can mean a significant boost to business... the downside is that poor service is also far more likely to be reported and made widely known.

Not wishing to speak for the original poster, but I think we're all aware of the frustration that can be created when dealing with companies who already have our money but whose product/service has falled short of the expected mark. It often seems as though those companies don't care... often because those companies *don't* particularly care. I know that I have warned friends and family off of companies who I feel have treated me with contempt but am also well aware that others have had no problems, or even positive experiences, with those same companies. I don't think the original post was unfair, certainly not in the context of this forum.

I use JGC, I like their beans - a lot. The original post won't put me off doing so, but I do think the way the company has handled this specific problem doesn't show them in a favourable light.


----------



## MikeHag

20Eyes said:


> In my view, if people set themselves up as 'gourmet' or 'speciality' they are trading on the basis that their product and service is of a higher quality than the mainstream. If that product and service then fails even to live up to that of the mainsteam then they should expect a harsher critique.


After they have consistently failed to deliver, yes. After one isolated incident, no.

There's so much rhetoric on this forum regarding supporting independent coffee shops in high street competition against the chains. This is no different. This is a small coffee company trying to do something better in the midst of bulk commercial roasters selling average beans. I support it, and others of it's kind, even if that means having to put myself out to such a huge extent as lifting the phone. I'm happy for others to disagree, I'm no longer trying to persuade you from your views. I'm simply laying out my position, which is that I disagree with the consensus here. I think you should all put yourselves in the shoes of this small business owner.


----------



## 20Eyes

MikeHag said:


> After they have consistently failed to deliver, yes. After one isolated incident, no.


I don't agree. People are asked to pay a premium for a premium product/service. That's fair enough, we all have a choice, but when that product/service falls significantly below par then once is enough. It's hard on the supplier, absolutely, but that's what you're setting yourself up for in that sector of the market.

Had the original post said that, categorically, JGC is a poor company selling poor quality beans it would be a different story. But that isn't what happened.

In fact, he actually started with a positive comment about the Formula 6.


----------



## vintagecigarman

MikeHag said:


> There's so much rhetoric on this forum regarding supporting independent coffee shops in high street competition against the chains. This is no different.


...and that fits in exactly with the point that I've been making, Mike. If I went to a town that I didn't know,and went to an independent coffee shop and got a crap cup of coffee, then I'd have no qualms in posting about it here to share my opinions with others - and would be happy to get feedback giving opposite experiences. And I'd be even more inclined to do so if it was an establishment that traded on its good reputation. It could be that my experience was atypical, but it's what I've experienced and I think that it's my right to tell others about my experience.

Equally, I have no hesitation in commending good service.

And I've worked as a sole trader in a business where one day's poor performance could ruin my entire reputation, and the key is that if something goes wrong, you shift heaven and earth to improve things. It seems from Sicknote's postings that JGC is well aware that this situation has been aired on the forum. In their position I'd be the one contacting my customer post haste, not waiting for him to contact me, and making damn sure that I did something to put the situation right!


----------



## MikeHag

Geoff, I agree that JGC should have handled this better... no argument there.

But I'm surprised at what you say regarding visiting a coffeeshop. I always encourage people to tell coffeeshops if they haven't enjoyed their coffee - whether it's a speciality place, a chain, or whatever. That way you give the shop a chance to remake it. If it's still not right, tell them again and at that point you can ask for a second remake or a refund... but at least the shop has had a chance to respond, rather than the customer walking out without saying anything and then posting an online complaint from a safe distance.

Anyway, like I say I'm not expecting to change any minds now. I'll just continue doing what I think is fair, as will everyone else.


----------



## garydyke1

Time for a group hug???


----------



## vintagecigarman

Sounds good to me.

Sent via Tapatalk


----------



## 20Eyes

MikeHag said:


> rather than the customer walking out without saying anything and then posting an online complaint *from a safe distance*.


That's quite a telling comment.

Personally, I'd quite happily tell the sole proprietor of a high-end, independent coffee roaster exactly what I thought of their product and service... many people would not feel comfortable doing so. If the Internet gives them a channel that they do feel comfortable using, all well and good. At the risk of repetition, the Net is a massive boost for small businesses when things go right, they must also expect the rough when things go wrong (especially when it's nobody's fault but their own).


----------



## vintagecigarman

I understand exactly what you're saying there - I'm a firm believer that the UK hospitality industry relies heavily on customers making no complaints, regardless of how dire the products or services are. And in my experience,by and large the staff and proprietors treat even reasonably-made and constructive complaints with total disdain.

Personally, I won't stand any nonsense in any restaurant, but as far as coffee is concerned, I see little object in complaining to staff who should be clearly able to recognise when their product is unsatisfactory. And how many times are you greeted by looks of total disbelief when you complain about the disgusting state of some steam wands?


----------



## 20Eyes

vintagecigarman said:


> I understand exactly what you're saying there - I'm a firm believer that the UK hospitality industry relies heavily on customers making no complaints, regardless of how dire the products or services are. And in my experience,by and large the staff and proprietors treat even reasonably-made and constructive complaints with total disdain.


Absolutely. In this country the culture is still to 'grin and bear it'. People don't like to be seen to 'make a fuss', even when they have every right to do so. It's one of the main reasons why the UK service industry hasn't really progressed since the 70s. It's a top down thing. Owners and managers don't really care as long as the customers have paid and their employees don't usually have the authority to approve refunds and so would rather stifle complaints than have to explain to their bosses why those complaints have happened.

Indeed, I've witnessed several instances where perfectly legitimate complaints in bars and restaurants have resulted in the staff and their managers essentially rolling their eyes and describing the compainants as 'one of those types', as if they're slightly mad for having the audacity not to simply accept the poor treatments they've already been given (and are about to receive more).

It's almost always the complete opposite in the States, hence their service sector (especially food and drink wise) is light-years ahead of ours on every level.

Despite outward pretences and promises, the general attitude in the UK is that 'The customer has no idea what they're talking about and is invariably wrong'.


----------



## 20Eyes

Coincidentally, I had a bag of James Gourmet Coffee's Kenya Kayu Peaberry beans arrive yesterday. After this thread, I took a close look at them (they look great) and have just made a large filter coffee with them: absolutely delicious.


----------



## jimrobo

out of interest does anyone know if JGC is a roast to order roaster? I ordered earlier this week as a bit of an experiment and they came extremely quickly which is a good thing obviously! But there doesn;t seem to be a roasted on date.


----------



## mike 100

I think you will find that JGC roast on Tuesdays and Thursdays each week.


----------



## jimrobo

mike 100 said:


> I think you will find that JGC roast on Tuesdays and Thursdays each week.


yep, read that on the website. Does that mean they roast to order on those days though or just roast on those days and sort of stockpile beans for what they think they might get in orders over the coming week/s type of thing?


----------



## mike 100

As far as I know they do roast to order, i'm sure if you gave them a call they would let you know, I can't see them stockpiling roasted beans myself ( At least I hope not!)

Mike


----------



## 20Eyes

After a month or two of ordering beans regularly from JGC - and being very pleased with them - I received a pack in error this week. I immediately contacted JGC via their website contact form (Wednesday) and have received no reply. I then followed up with a direct email early yesterday morning... and have had no reply.

Like so many small companies, it seems that JGC are OK when things go as expected but if anything goes wrong, forget about it - they very clearly couldn't care less. A real shame.


----------



## Monkey_Devil

20Eyes said:


> After a month or two of ordering beans regularly from JGC - and being very pleased with them - I received a pack in error this week. I immediately contacted JGC via their website contact form (Wednesday) and have received no reply. I then followed up with a direct email early yesterday morning... and have had no reply.
> 
> Like so many small companies, it seems that JGC are OK when things go as expected but if anything goes wrong, forget about it - they very clearly couldn't care less. A real shame.


Call them







I had an order not turn up before and they didn't respond to my emails, don't know why. When I called, they said my order had been dispatched, but that they would happily send a new one on the next roast day. Was them dealt with quickly


----------



## nekromantik

I just bought my first pack of Formula 6 from JGC. It will be dispatched today!

At the moment I am having Has Bean Jailbreak but I find it good for espresso but bit too fruity with flavoured lattes.

Lets see if Espresso 6 is any better.

Does anyone know if they offer returining customers discount?

Also is the 6 month deal good value?


----------



## MikeHag

The subscription looks to be priced similar to others. TBH if I was considering a sub I'd go for Has Bean's In My Mug. The price is great and the extra info you get is incredible.

No loyalty discount with JGC which is a shame... I don't know any roasters who offer that (not officially, at least) and I think it would be a win win. I do know that once I started regularly ordering a few bags per order then I started getting samples of other beans thrown in the box.

Hope the F6 is good. I have loved previous versions of it as straight esoresso but the beans used do change with the seasons. For flavoured lattes it should be an excellent espresso I think.


----------



## DaveS

nekromantik said:


> I just bought my first pack of Formula 6 from JGC. It will be dispatched today!
> 
> At the moment I am having Has Bean Jailbreak but I find it good for espresso but bit too fruity with flavoured lattes.
> 
> Lets see if Espresso 6 is any better.
> 
> Does anyone know if they offer returining customers discount?
> 
> Also is the 6 month deal good value?


Don't think you'll be dissappointed with the Formula 6 which is very intense with a lovely dark crema and makes a fantastic cappucino. This week I am working through my first bag of this.


----------



## nekromantik

MikeHag said:


> The subscription looks to be priced similar to others. TBH if I was considering a sub I'd go for Has Bean's In My Mug. The price is great and the extra info you get is incredible.
> 
> No loyalty discount with JGC which is a shame... I don't know any roasters who offer that (not officially, at least) and I think it would be a win win. I do know that once I started regularly ordering a few bags per order then I started getting samples of other beans thrown in the box.
> 
> Hope the F6 is good. I have loved previous versions of it as straight esoresso but the beans used do change with the seasons. For flavoured lattes it should be an excellent espresso I think.


Thanks.

Yeah I was looking at Has Bean in my mug but only issue I have with that is they dont do it for just one bean. It will become useless to me if I only like 1 or 2 beans and get beans I dont like other times.



DaveS said:


> Don't think you'll be dissappointed with the Formula 6 which is very intense with a lovely dark crema and makes a fantastic cappucino. This week I am working through my first bag of this.


Nice. I hope its forgiving in terms of grind and tamp as even with the Jailbreak blend I was either getting too slow or too fast pour. I poured a 2 oz shot in 18 secs which was my best shot ha ha


----------



## MikeHag

Hope it works. It's difficult to assess any beans if for some reason you aren't able to extract it to its full potential. That's one of the reasons people eventually upgrade their bits n pieces.


----------



## nekromantik

MikeHag said:


> Hope it works. It's difficult to assess any beans if for some reason you aren't able to extract it to its full potential. That's one of the reasons people eventually upgrade their bits n pieces.


I cannot afford anything better at the moment. I have heard the Cubika Plus is capable of pulling a good shot but its all about persons skills to get best out of it. Im new to it so got a lot to learn.


----------



## MikeHag

Could be a good thing. You can learn a lot more if you need to use skills to compensate for equipment limitations


----------



## nekromantik

Yeah I agree.

Apart from grind quality and tamp and dose is there anything else I can do?

If I down dose and dont fill my portafilter to the top will I need less tamp for a better extraction?


----------



## MikeHag

So many things but rather than try to steer your technique, I'd suggest deepening your knowledge. Not that long ago I was a complete beginner trying to make sense of all the variables. It felt like there was a lot of conflicting advice and it felt like I was at the mercy of the beans and equipment.

Reading David Schomer's book was the start of an improved understanding that led to more control. Later, Scott Rao's book took it further.

It's not for everyone, but I think that reading is the best way to better espresso.

Reducing dose will reduce the resistance in the puck, making the pour faster. A lighter tamp would make the pour even faster.


----------



## nekromantik

MikeHag said:


> So many things but rather than try to steer your technique, I'd suggest deepening your knowledge. Not that long ago I was a complete beginner trying to make sense of all the variables. It felt like there was a lot of conflicting advice and it felt like I was at the mercy of the beans and equipment.
> 
> Reading David Schomer's book was the start of an improved understanding that led to more control. Later, Scott Rao's book took it further.
> 
> It's not for everyone, but I think that reading is the best way to better espresso.
> 
> Reducing dose will reduce the resistance in the puck, making the pour faster. A lighter tamp would make the pour even faster.


I will see how I go and maybe read that book ha ha

Ah ok so I dont want to down dose and want a proper tamp.

I can never get it to blond after 2.5oz either. I never left it until it did blonde however so I think I have always had under extracted espresso.


----------



## fatboyslim

Examining your pucks, observing the level of the puck in the basket after pulling shot and weighing your beans exactly have all helped me better diagnose extraction problems.


----------



## jimbow

nekromantik said:


> I will see how I go and maybe read that book ha ha
> 
> Ah ok so I dont want to down dose and want a proper tamp.
> 
> I can never get it to blond after 2.5oz either. I never left it until it did blonde however so I think I have always had under extracted espresso.


I think the down dosing depends upon what you are trying to achieve. If the espresso tastes too strong then down dosing can help but bear in mind, as Mike pointed out, the espresso will pour more quickly due to the decreased resistance in the basket. Also, if the pour is about right but the espresso tastes overly acidic and under extracted then down dosing in conjuction with a finer grind (to maintain the same pour rate) can help give a better extraction and a more balanced taste.

Generally there are lots of variables to tweak so to start with, I would try to keep the tamp pressure fairly constant. 30 pounds of pressure is widely accepted as a good pressure to aim for and you can practice tamping on a set of bathroom scales to get a feel for what 30 pounds feels like. Don't worry too much if you can't achieve 30 pounds though - the main thing is consistency.


----------



## nekromantik

At 18 seconds for 2.5oz shot, it tastes ok I think. Not as strong as a shot from Costa.

I can taste the fruityness in that shot but not sure if its good or not as I never tasted any espresso other then Costa/Starbucks or Cafe Nero.


----------



## MikeHag

Like I say, at 18 secs and 2.5oz any espresso is going to taste completely different from, say, 25 secs and 2oz.

Suggest trying a combination of the following to slow down the pour:

- increase dose

- grind finer

- tamp firmer

Normally I'd say always tamp with the same pressure (30lb) but on this occasion you need a workaround to compensate for limiting factors.

When the pour is slower you should see the difference. Thick, creamy, oily brown rather than thin, black (quickly changing to yellow), flat.

By the way, if the beans were just roasted, leave them a few days otherwise the gas will make the pour speed variable.


----------



## nekromantik

MikeHag said:


> Like I say, at 18 secs and 2.5oz any espresso is going to taste completely different from, say, 25 secs and 2oz.
> 
> Suggest trying a combination of the following to slow down the pour:
> 
> - increase dose
> 
> - grind finer
> 
> - tamp firmer
> 
> Normally I'd say always tamp with the same pressure (30lb) but on this occasion you need a workaround to compensate for limiting factors.
> 
> When the pour is slower you should see the difference. Thick, creamy, oily brown rather than thin, black (quickly changing to yellow), flat.
> 
> By the way, if the beans were just roasted, leave them a few days otherwise the gas will make the pour speed variable.


thanks will try that.

yeah James Gormet coffee recommend leaving the beans for 4 - 7 days before using to get the most out of them.

Mine were roasted yesterday but as its Xmas time post is slow and I not got mine yet. if it arrives tomorrow then I will leave it another 3 days before opening but it means drinking instant coffee till then as I dont have anymore beans left or even pre ground stuff left ha ha


----------

