# Pids



## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Hi.

how essential is a pid on a silvia, compared to a classic?? Is the temprature swing worse on a silvia?

Because i have temp surfed my classic for ages with no noticeable issues. Is it more faff on a silvia to temp surf? I also read PIDS are more essential if you are a straight shot drinker, which i am not.

without a pid service in the uk, my terrible diy skills, and the thought of voiding the warranty i would rather avoid it at least for the first couple of years...

So, without a pid would a silvia be an upgrade on a 2013 classic without a pid??

Thanks for any advice, i genuinly thought silvias were about £500 and ive just discovered they are about £330 so this is now an option for me.

Louis


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Burnzy said:


> Hi.
> 
> how essential is a pid on a silvia, compared to a classic?? Is the temprature swing worse on a silvia?
> 
> ...


Id put a PId on the classic -save your money - talk to Mr Shades about his kits

Ultimately id save up for something else ( Hx machien or DB )

Silvia new - nah ...sideways from the gaggia


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Seriously, i could not get away (even if i saved) spending that much.... For me, its classic, silvia, or duo temp pro for a home machine tops! Id be in so much trouble.... I genuinly dont feel a need for a pid on my classic, so i am wondering if its more of a need on a silvia? (Considering i have milk and sugar in my coffee)

I thought the silvia was considered an upgrade to a classic, slight but still an upgrade??? Is it more of a side step then?


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Yes - there's little point in moving from a Classic to a Silvia. Classic to Duo Temp would give you PID control and much better water temp stability, but it's still an SBDU and hence (as you're obviously a milk user) you have the cooling/heating periods to contend with (as you have with the Classic, and would with a Silvia). OK, the Duo Temp auto purges to get the boiler back down to brew temp after steaming, but it's still necessary.

Ultimately you'll want a dual boiler - and then you typically have PID control of both boilers and the ability to draw shots whilst steaming milk, etc. - but they're not cheap, even used.

If you genuinely dont feel a need to PID your classic and are happy surfing, then I doubt you'd feel a need to PID the Silvia either (and can surf to a similar degree) - you could benefit slightly from the Duo Temp's improved temp stability and remove the need for surfing.... but then you may as well just save your money and PID the Classic.

So, all said and done, you may as well just stay with the Classic.... unless you're looking for a "better" machine (which normally translates into "improved temperature stability" or "better steaming" or "rotary pump" (OK, or "lever") or "can be plumbed in" or "can steam and pour at the same time") etc.

What, actually, are you looking for in a machine upgrade?


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Having just seen your other thread about your new Sage Pro grinder thingy.... you could probably gain a MUCH bigger improvement if you spent money upgrading the grinder rather than upgrading the Classic.

Anyway, probably not what you want to hear... ;-)


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

MrShades said:


> Yes - there's little point in moving from a Classic to a Silvia. Classic to Duo Temp would give you PID control and much better water temp stability, but it's still an SBDU and hence (as you're obviously a milk user) you have the cooling/heating periods to contend with (as you have with the Classic, and would with a Silvia). OK, the Duo Temp auto purges to get the boiler back down to brew temp after steaming, but it's still necessary.
> 
> Ultimately you'll want a dual boiler - and then you typically have PID control of both boilers and the ability to draw shots whilst steaming milk, etc. - but they're not cheap, even used.
> 
> ...


Thanks, thats pretty much what i want to know... Im not sure to be honest, i really want a new machine, but only have budget of around these 3 machines. I know 2nd hand is suggested, but for me i love and prefer new when it comes to these types of things. I think i just am yerning for a change more than anything. The duo is tempting because of the pid, but worry about the overall quality and annoying things like 54mm portafilter and non commercial group head etc....

oh well who knows what ill do !! The constant confusion continues... But i think its probably worth waiting till i can get a db

thanks for your advice... Do you fit pids btw?


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

MrShades said:


> Having just seen your other thread about your new Sage Pro grinder thingy.... you could probably gain a MUCH bigger improvement if you spent money upgrading the grinder rather than upgrading the Classic.
> 
> Anyway, probably not what you want to hear... ;-)


ah yeah i am upgrading grinder too... I just got it swapped before warranty ran out... My plan was a commercial 2nd hand.. But wife not so keen, and over kill for current machine budget, so now thinking mignon mk 2 and a silvia from bella barista, with all the warrantys and bells and im sorted for years.. But dont know anymore, i think its sometimes an issue getting advice from people who have £2000 set ups.... Lol

keep sage for pour overs or sell, not sure yet...


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

The basic consensus is that the Silvia is not much of an upgrade from the Classic. They both have the same basic problems, but the Silvia does have the advantage of a bigger boiler.

They both fluctuate wildly (to the tune of 14degrees...a huge amount) as they keep the boiler 'at temperature'. A PID on either solves this and brings this to within a degree or two.

Due to the small boiler the Classic will suffer a 7-10deg temp drop during a 30ml shot where the Silvia will suffer a 2deg or so temp drop during a shot. This difference is not, IMHO, worth 3x the price. These figures do not take into account doing more than one shot in a row.

When it comes time to upgrade save up a tad more and wait for an entry level HX to pop up, they are rare but you can pick up an Oscar or Expo Pulsar for £400 or so. An entry level HX will do essentially the same job as a 2k dual boiler.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Burnzy said:


> Thanks, thats pretty much what i want to know... Im not sure to be honest, i really want a new machine, but only have budget of around these 3 machines. I know 2nd hand is suggested, but for me i love and prefer new when it comes to these types of things. I think i just am yerning for a change more than anything. The duo is tempting because of the pid, but worry about the overall quality and annoying things like 54mm portafilter and non commercial group head etc....
> 
> oh well who knows what ill do !! The constant confusion continues... But i think its probably worth waiting till i can get a db
> 
> thanks for your advice... Do you fit pids btw?


I've fitted a PID to my own Classic - but also sell a kit to allow people to fit a PID to their own Classic (with a complete Dummy's Guide, step-by-step fitting instructions with lots of photos, etc).

Have a look here : http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?27931-MrShades-Gaggia-Classic-PID-Kit-Complete-PID-kit-with-full-guide-%A389&highlight=Gaggia

(Adding a PID to the Classic is exactly what I'd do in your shoes - combined with a grinder upgrade you would see a great improvement in your coffee quality).


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Thanks for your help... how much for pid kit...? And is there any soldering or anything involved?


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Burnzy said:


> ah yeah i am upgrading grinder too... I just got it swapped before warranty ran out... My plan was a commercial 2nd hand.. But wife not so keen, and over kill for current machine budget, so now thinking mignon mk 2 and a silvia from bella barista, with all the warrantys and bells and im sorted for years.. But dont know anymore, i think its sometimes an issue getting advice from people who have £2000 set ups.... Lol
> 
> keep sage for pour overs or sell, not sure yet...


Wouldn't buy new... But then I have a liking for engineering over electronics, so I guess the warranty is less of an issue.

Depending on the machine, 2nd hand commercial is a good option I think - I would be one of the few, but I reckon if you can get a V3 Silvia for close to £200, that would represent pretty good value.

Personally not a fan of consumer gaggias, kind of have a hankering for a D90 at home though & they do come up fairly regularly on fleabay.... Ditto on grinder tho


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Burnzy said:


> Thanks for your help... how much for pid kit...? And is there any soldering or anything involved?


£89 delivered, no soldering - just screwdrivering (perhaps some hex/allen-keying and spannering in one or two places as well)... all cables are premade etc.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

MrShades said:


> £89 delivered, no soldering - just screwdrivering (perhaps some hex/allen-keying and spannering in one or two places as well)... all cables are premade etc.


So when is the Mr Shades Silvia version due?


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

When someone gives me a Silvia ;-)


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

MrShades said:


> When someone gives me a Silvia ;-)


Festive spirit is not so strong in this one... Lol


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## cavem01 (Oct 3, 2015)

oursus said:


> Festive spirit is not so strong in this one... Lol


It's something I'm looking into currently. Late Jan I should have a beta kit for someone to test.......


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

cavem01 said:


> It's something I'm looking into currently. Late Jan I should have a beta kit for someone to test.......


Let me know, I need to stop letting earning a living getting in the way of playing with coffee machines  Jan should be just right!


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