# Brewed Coffee in Cafes



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I invite you to read this article first as it really got be thinking why so few cafes offer brewed coffee.

Since moving to London and frequenting MANY cafes, I soon grew tired of drinking shots of red brick (say what you will about this statement but these shots don't last long enough and were in no way at all any better than my espresso at home and actually I prefer my own so I've lost interest in cafe espresso ever so slightly). so every cafe I've been in lately I've asked for a brewed coffee where available.

These rarely disappoint with Workshop (aeropress and Uber Grinder), Dose (aeropress and Steel Burr Vario), Prufrock (french press and uber) and Store St (v60 and ?????) being some of the highlights so far.

Finally coming to my point, I'm managed to persuade some of my un-initiated friends to sample this brewed coffee coming from a totally heathen background (costa loyalty cards....).

This has been met with exactly the same response each time...

'I don't need to add milk or sugar!!!'

'Wow its so sweet and fruity and doesn't taste like coffee at all'!

'I love it!'

'How can I make this at home?'

'How much is a good grinder?'

'Oh my god I'm not paying that much for a grinder!'

The same shocked response of how amazing these brewed coffees taste and each time having to try and explain why its difficult to reproduce this at home.

I try to explain how hand grinding is the easy option but no one seems interested in this and they don't want to invest in a good grinder. Quite frankly I'm getting bored of explaining why you can't make coffee this good at home.

People don't want to know about brew ratios and pour over kettles.

I think, other than just sharing my thoughts, my point is that how do we make excellent brewed coffee available to the masses and get more people interested so more cafes feel they have to offer it.

This might encourage suppliers or manufacturers to make and sell better and cheaper brewed grinders and maybe all in one brewers (no built in grinder).

I'm fairly convinced that I could persuade more of my friends into drinking brewed coffee without milk or sugar and I'd get the same response again but I no longer can be bothered to explain why it tastes so good and why they can't make it at home (as they usually rapidly lose interest when I mention £150+ for a good grinder or use a hand grinder).


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

I read that article a little while ago and while I don't really agree that their costing makes sense I think they have reached the right conclusion in the end.

In a cafe environment I think that it makes more sense to treat staff costs as fixed in the short term rather than costing them into the product itself. You obviously need to consider how many cups per hour can be made if your staff are at full productivity but concentrating on the profit margin rather than contribution ignores the fact that in a cafe during the day there will be a significant amount of idle time.

As an example:

Assume that espresso sells for £1.50, has a profit margin of 50p and takes one minute to make and v60 sells at £2.00, makes a profit of 10p and takes ten minutes to make.

Which would you rather sell to the next person that walks into the shop? It seems obvious but the key is how busy your staff are. If they are only going to make one drink in the next ten minutes then the associated staff cost is irrelevant (because you're going to pay them anyway!). It might be that the contribution (sales price less variable costs actual ground coffee etc) is higher for v60 than for espresso, meaning that you would rather sell them the v60.

This approach should lead you to start thinking about how you increase your contribution per hour - more specifically how do we sell more v60? They are probably right in thinking that you sell more if you reduce the price and reduce the waiting time. The key (in my opinion) is how you reach this conclusion and looking at profits might not be the most accurate way. A contribution based approach might indicate that you can actually reduce the price of v60 further (which would indicate a loss if you include staff time) but might increase profits overall.

I'm sure there are many other factors to consider but that was my feeling after reading that blog post.

Getting back to the main point of the thread - it really is frustrating that getting the most from brewed coffee requires so much understanding. I guess it's inherent in the product itself that we love all the different flavours that can be extracted but the result of this 'volatility' is that it's so easy to mess it up!

I was thinking about this the other day though I was thinking about how people in the UK love the cafetiere. So much so that I think that's what brewed coffee means to a lot of people in the UK. Also making French press coffee is relatively hard to mess up. Take good coffee, grind quite coarsely, add water a minute off the boil, wait 3-4 minutes and plunge slowly. The main issues with this are:

- how coarse do you grind

- how much coffee to how much water

What if someone was to produce a small cheap burr grinder that had only one grind setting (by restricting this you could potentially build it more cheaply) that's in the right ball park for gold cup extractions with a French press and a 4 minute steep for 'most' beans. What this could potentially do:

- limit the variables without significantly harming the cup quality

- by being clear from the off that it is for French press it would reduce disappointment when people buy cheap grinders then try to use them with espresso machines

- create an entry level option that isn't a hand grinder

- by restricting the grinding range maybe it would be possible to create a burr set that produces not very many fines in that range.

Until someone manages to simplify the brewing process I don't expect a huge uptake in quality coffee at home. More depressing than that I find it difficult to recommend to anyone too.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

lookseehear said:


> Until someone manages to simplify the brewing process I don't expect a huge uptake in quality coffee at home. More depressing than that I find it difficult to recommend to anyone too.


I wonder, is the lack of good brewed coffee in the home down to a lack of "the next big thing" in brewers/grinders (though the Sowden looks promising?), or is it down to the fact that, even people who have relatively fool proof brewers, like the French press, view coffee as a grocery to be picked up with the weekly shop at the supermarket? Take away the Uber grinders & Varios, you still have people who do this for a living, making many, many brews a day. Most folk really don't want the hassle. My work clleagues share what I make, largely enjoy it and are aware of the difference between what I make, what they make at home & what they get served in non-specialty cafes/restaurants etc., I show them how "easy" it is...but it's not easy, or fast enough to justify (in their eyes) the commitment.

When I offer people coffee in my home, they say, "sure, thanks"...then they hear the grinder going, the scales come out..."Err, what can you make quickly?". "Why, are you in a rush, off somewhere else?", I ask. "No, I just want it quickly...".Then they get the coffee, say how nice it is, how sweet, doesn't need sugar....but couldn't be doing with the faff every time they wanted a cup. It may be a very nice cup of coffee...but it is just a cup of coffee.

Whether the "new great home brewed coffee grinder" costs £50, or £250, I don't see it making a big impact. A Krups GVX, or a Bodum bistro might not be worthy of a brewers cup entry, but it can certainly net you a delicious steeped brew...but even these are deemed unnecessary/extravagant by most folk.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

It's all to do with how people view coffee and if you wanted to see more people going the extra mile for coffee at home that view of what coffee is needs to change, I'm pretty sure that is what got all of us here in the first place, something changed how we see coffee, no longer was it that bitter brown stuff that you drink in the morning to wake you up and instead it became the glorious nectar around which our lives revolve, something about specialty coffee ignited a passion and I believe that is what brew bars in coffee shops are for, not to make a huge profit margin but it's a labor of love to give coffee a chance to fully express itself, to offer a 'coffee experience' to be shared with the world and show just what coffee can be and thus inspire maybe the tenth or fiftieth person who drinks a brewed coffee in that shop into changing their entire outlook on coffee and ignite that same passion that we all share that drives us to do what we do.

We are not a religion though and while it is always nice to introduce somebody to specialty coffee and get a great response, it it not our duty to try and indoctrinate people, some will always just prefer a gold blend in the morning, a Starbucks(I love how my spell checker puts a red line under that saying "really.. are you sure?") in town or a cup of tea!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Outlaw333 said:


> instead it became the glorious nectar around which our lives revolve


I want to kiss your face. This is SO true


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

Outlaw333 said:


> We are not a religion though and while it is always nice to introduce somebody to specialty coffee and get a great response, it it not our duty to try and indoctrinate people


Give that man a cake.

As for the problem with brews in cafes, there are always batch brewers. Ok not as adaptable (though almost) as brewing by hand, but arguably more consistent and can taste fantastic provided they're not left on a hot plate for hours.


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## Milesy (Mar 8, 2012)

My fave place in Glasgow, Artisan Roast, do Chemex and V60 for those prepared to wait and at not unreasonable prices. My other fave place, Coffe, Chocolate & Tea also do Aeropress







I sat the other day for lunch and had an Espresso and then a V60. Yum.


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## Milesy (Mar 8, 2012)

And that chart is a bit simplistic. It does not factor in well trained staff who are capable of multi tasking while making brewed coffee or even espresso.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I wonder how the Penny University managed these considerations.


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## 20Eyes (Mar 16, 2011)

This is what I so love about Stumptown's Annex on Belmont. Just amazing brewed coffee, nothing else.

Just the beans, a grinder and a hot water boiler for brewed coffee. They don't even have a fridge, so no milk even if you want it (unless you take your mug just up the road).

I think part of the problem is perception. Most people can see the 'theatre' of espresso production and also think they can't replicate it at home, whereas a cup of black brewed coffee doesn't have that same impact. They'll merrily spend £3 on an espresso-based drink but think a mug of black coffee shouldn't cost more than £1.50 or so.


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## bdt (Sep 13, 2011)

Outlaw333 said:


> I believe that is what brew bars in coffee shops are for, not to make a huge profit margin but it's a labor of love to give coffee a chance to fully express itself, to offer a 'coffee experience' to be shared with the world and show just what coffee can be and thus inspire maybe the tenth or fiftieth person who drinks a brewed coffee in that shop into changing their entire outlook on coffee and ignite that same passion that we all share that drives us to do what we do.


Agree partly with that sentiment in that it's the cafe owners who should be doing more to turn customers on to speciality coffee. As someone who's about to open a new coffee house I certainly plan to make the effort to offer quality, brewed coffee. My rationale behind this is that no other coffee shop in my area does this and if I can raise the bar and turn on a enough customers to brewed coffee then I know I'll have created a real USP in that these customers will have little choice but to come back to us is they want the same quality again.

Unless I've misunderstood, the only part I'd disagree with is the part regarding not about making huge profits and being a labour of love. As a business owner, everything I do has to (ultimately) be for the financial benefit of the business whether it be in the short or long term. The industry is just too competitive for me to have any other view. The problem, I think, is that most cafe owners are looking at the short term and unless they can see an instant return, don't see the point in investing their time or money in offering a product which they don't perceive there to be sufficient demand for... yet!


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Earlepap said:


> Give that man a cake.
> 
> As for the problem with brews in cafes, there are always batch brewers. Ok not as adaptable (though almost) as brewing by hand, but arguably more consistent and can taste fantastic provided they're not left on a hot plate for hours.


I notice that my nearest coffee shop at work has struck their brewed coffee offering from their menu. Even when they did still make it they always seemed to resent being asked and then point out it would take a good five minutes to make it because it would be brewed freshly.

I wonder whether too much emphasis is placed on making brewed coffee cool and adding theatre and believe coffee shops should strongly consider batch brewing as Earlepap suggested. Batch brewing offers better consistency, can be served more quickly and offers higher margins. Speakeasy offers 2 guest batch brews alongside V60 and french press.


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## carbonkid85 (Jan 19, 2011)

Monmouth does a good job of churning out V60 brews because that's what people tend to go there for. They serve such a high volume of brewed coffee that one member of staff is always on the brew bar, taking care of 6-8 cups at once. I suppose that's the profitable way to do brewed, but it really is at the heart of what Monmouth does.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

carbonkid85 said:


> Monmouth does a good job of churning out V60 brews because that's what people tend to go there for. They serve such a high volume of brewed coffee that one member of staff is always on the brew bar, taking care of 6-8 cups at once. I suppose that's the profitable way to do brewed, but it really is at the heart of what Monmouth does.


Don't they do Melitta style cones rather than v60? I think they're more of a 'set and forget' brew method and they manage to churn them out pretty quickly. Saying that the last few brews I've had from Monmouth didn't impress me that much compared to others (v60 at store street for example).

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


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## bdt (Sep 13, 2011)

jimbow said:


> I wonder whether too much emphasis is placed on making brewed coffee cool and adding theatre and believe coffee shops should strongly consider batch brewing as Earlepap suggested. Batch brewing offers better consistency, can be served more quickly and offers higher margins.


Bearing in mind the equipment in relation to a expresso machine is very inexpensive, I see no reason not to offer both. The batch brewer offers speed, consistency and a lower price but if anyone does prefer a single brew and are happy to pay, say an extra 40p or so, for the freshest possible cup and the theatre that goes with it of course, then so be it. I think it's all about giving customers the choice and if any coffee house wants to position itself as a gourmet coffee shop then offering single cup brews is another way to go about doing this.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

If i walk into a coffeeshop with the intention to obtain a brewed coffee, i expect a comfortable seat, a hand crafted delicious cup, which I can sit and enjoy as it changes temperature, happy to pay more for this .

To walk out the door with it in a paper cup then I clearly dont have the time to enjoy it/focus on it - in that scenario a batch brew is perfect, I expect to pay less. I guess im saying both offering have their time and place.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

I think one of the keys to brewed coffee in coffee shops is the brew bar, having a dedicated bar offering customers the opportunity to sit at and enjoy watching your brew being crafted while being able to talk to the craftsman is all important and means your general customers are more likely to appreciate the experience rather than getting fed up waiting anywhere up to 10 minutes at a table and not really understanding why, the brew bar is like seats at the theatre. The trouble is not all coffee shops have the space, money, or staffing to accommodate this and I believe it would make hand brewed coffee a tricky one to execute, in this case I recon batch brewing or sticking to espresso would be the best option.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Outlaw333 said:


> in this case I recon batch brewing or sticking to espresso would be the best option.


Absolutely. I wouldnt travel half way round town for a batch brew, whereas I might be swayed to travel the extra mile for the coffee extra mile, if that makes sense.


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

Its a shame we live in a culture that has an average attention span of 30 secs and decreasing, i quite like being able to enjoy a brewed coffee now and then but as most people ask for espresso when you do ask for brewed it seams to catch them of guard and takes a bit for them to get up to speed, never been to specific brew bar as most of our locals are only small and wouldn't have the space/staff for a dedicated brew bar. having read the article there is no concept of a loss leader or using it as a hook and if you could put a nice glass patisserie below the brew area im sure you could increase your spend per head. if im having espresso its very rare but if im having a more substantial coffee then you cant beat a nice bit of banana & walnut cake









my other issue is with the cost calculation as its incredibly simplistic, i very much doubt that the Barista will spend the whole 10 minutes solely making that one drink??

i have had the cup top brewers in a few places, not quite as theatrical but fun as you sit and chat while you wait for it to percolate through. and the results are generally quite good.

some of the worst coffee i have had is from the large Bunn type bulk brewers as if it sits around for to long it takes on a distinct tar taste









think it will come down to the individual business model what proves most suitable.


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