# What machine/grinder should I get for £500-£750 and why. Also where can I try them UK



## tomloaf

At the moment I have Krups GVX2 Expert coffee grinder and use a plunger (French press) to make my coffee. My wife and I want to get the kitchen done and want to treat our selves to a proper coffee machine (not pod to be clear). I have been reading up on bits and it seems everyone says getting a good grinder is most important rather than the machine. I understand why burr grinders are better than cut grinders but as I will only be making coffee for my self and the wife at once we don't need to be super efficient or make huge quantities so what wrong with my current grinder?

I have about £500-£750 but could go a bit over for my machine and grinder if you think my current one isn't good enough. Any pointers at all, the guides don't specify machine just some good brands etc.

Also can anyone recommend any places we can go to actually try coffee made using different machine so we can see if we think the extra spend is worth it etc. I am in Essex but can easily get to London UK.


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## Jon

Bella Barista in Wellingborough stock a bunch of machines (But arguably not at your budget and obviously it's a trek). Do you want to go new or used? Do you have/want milk based drinks like a cappuccino/latte or espresso?


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## NickdeBug

If you can stretch the budget by £90 then you can pick up a Sage Dual Boiler and Sage Smart Grinder.

Keep the grinder or sell it on and buy 2nd hand commercial.

Other used options out there, but this represents the best bang for buck available at the moment.


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## Rob1

Your grinder probably can't deliver a suitably consistent fine grind for a good espresso machine. The expensive commercial grinders don't just grind quickly, they grind consistently. If you don't want to spend more than £200 on a grinder you're looking at a used Mignon (if you're lucky) a Lido E hand grinder, or an Iberital MC2.

A set of sieves will help with any of those grinders, so you might want to check out the Rafino kickstarter campaign slated for delivery in August.

Edit: Recommended grinders would be Mignon, Lido E, or Mazzer/Ceado/Compak large flats. Second hand prices from about £250


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## Missy

Tom, I thought exactly like you, but had worked in a coffee shop, so knew the difference in the "look" of the product. Having just got a mazzer super jolly the difference in taste is vast. I've never been a fan of the taste of brewed coffee over espresso, but with a decent grinder the dodgy tastes are eliminated.

For a quick test you could ask your local coffee shop if they can spare you/sell you some fresh ground coffee. Or even buy some preground (don't kill me everyone!)

Spread it out on a white plate and look closely at the particle consistency compared to your own. If you get preground it will also be dry and crusty looking, but it will be consistently sized.

That's what makes coffee taste good. And a "home grinder" can't replicate that so easily, and blades have no hope.

Some of the guys here are backing a kick starter for sieves to refine even beyond what their (probably very flash?!) Grinders can handle- such is their pursuit of taste.

Personally I think that's a bit too far down the rabbit hole for me in terms of every day coffee, but the decent grinder makes huge difference to the taste, and ease of achieving a great coffee with minimum effort.


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## Jon

Yeah. I'd say forget sieves for now. 99% of people here won't bother I suspect.

Once you come back on the questions above I'll make a suggestion but assuming you like milk based drinks you have 3 main machine options;

Single boiler: have to wait to steam milk. Generally have to temp surf to get right temp for espresso extraction.

HX (heat exchanger): no need to wait for milk but generally need to temp surf.

Dual boiler: 2 different boilers one for steam and one for espresso.

Nick is suggesting the last one when he talks about the sage above. It is very cheap for a dual boiler especially with a grinder but some are put off by its less mechanical/traditional build and a fear over its potential life long term.

I normally suggest a used Fracino HX to someone with your budget. They're based in Birmingham and parts are easy to come by. (Although the Nuova Simonelli Oscar 2 from Elektros.it looks nice!)

For new - given your budget - it's probably a single boiler Rancilio Silvia or Gaggia Classic (although people say the older classic is better).

@tomloaf


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## hotmetal

To reiterate what Missy said, the advantages of a good quality burr grinder for espresso are not efficiency, speed or volume - it's all about getting a good consistent grind quality. This has a direct effect on the extraction, and therefore taste, even if you only make one shot a day. Trying to make nice espresso with a cheap grinder is a frustrating experience. Really you want a Eureka Mignon or small Mazzer as a minimum ideally. Your Krups has probably served you well with French press, and I would say you should hang on to it for brewed - you really don't want to try adjusting your espresso grinder to make brewed, as you'll end up wasting half a bag dialling it back and forth for espresso.


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## tomloaf

Jon said:


> Bella Barista in Wellingborough stock a bunch of machines (But arguably not at your budget and obviously it's a trek). Do you want to go new or used? Do you have/want milk based drinks like a cappuccino/latte or espresso?


That is a bit of a trek. I would prefer new for obviouse reasons and do both milk and non milk based drinks. How much maintenance work do these machines needs? is it a lot of work every week/month etc?


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## tomloaf

Missy said:


> Tom, I thought exactly like you, but had worked in a coffee shop, so knew the difference in the "look" of the product. Having just got a mazzer super jolly the difference in taste is vast. I've never been a fan of the taste of brewed coffee over espresso, but with a decent grinder the dodgy tastes are eliminated.
> 
> For a quick test you could ask your local coffee shop if they can spare you/sell you some fresh ground coffee. Or even buy some preground (don't kill me everyone!)
> 
> Spread it out on a white plate and look closely at the particle consistency compared to your own. If you get preground it will also be dry and crusty looking, but it will be consistently sized.
> 
> That's what makes coffee taste good. And a "home grinder" can't replicate that so easily, and blades have no hope.
> 
> Some of the guys here are backing a kick starter for sieves to refine even beyond what their (probably very flash?!) Grinders can handle- such is their pursuit of taste.
> 
> Personally I think that's a bit too far down the rabbit hole for me in terms of every day coffee, but the decent grinder makes huge difference to the taste, and ease of achieving a great coffee with minimum effort.


Thank you that is very helpful. Whats your set up btw?


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## Jon

tomloaf said:


> That is a bit of a trek. I would prefer new for obviouse reasons and do both milk and non milk based drinks. How much maintenance work do these machines needs? is it a lot of work every week/month etc?


No just clean as you go mostly. And a little maintenance periodically.

Used will bring way more bang/buck.


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## tomloaf

hotmetal said:


> To reiterate what Missy said, the advantages of a good quality burr grinder for espresso are not efficiency, speed or volume - it's all about getting a good consistent grind quality. This has a direct effect on the extraction, and therefore taste, even if you only make one shot a day. Trying to make nice espresso with a cheap grinder is a frustrating experience. Really you want a Eureka Mignon or small Mazzer as a minimum ideally. Your Krups has probably served you well with French press, and I would say you should hang on to it for brewed - you really don't want to try adjusting your espresso grinder to make brewed, as you'll end up wasting half a bag dialling it back and forth for espresso.


The general idea i get from people seems to be as follows.

Either spend lots of money of a good espresso machine and grinder and have a great set up buts costs good amounts of money

Alternativly the nex best option is to just carry on with frensh press and use one of those home milk frothers for latte's. Am I correct? If so is there a rolls royce of drip machines of french press and milk frothers?


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## tomloaf

What about this somone mentioned http://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=nuova_simonelli_oscar_black&gclid=Cj0KEQjwid63BRCswIGqyOubtrUBEiQAvTol0W5KZDFUbJ3Gyj6lAYVtJezUi5OrPUhdr28ZkAHetp0aAjzE8P8HAQ


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## Missy

Tom I have a super jolly and a classic. Really didn't break the bank. Well it did. But my bank was tiny! Not much in the way of work, just keep it clean. Certainly less hassle than some gadgetry (the hours spent scrubbing a George foreman grill!)


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## tomloaf

Missy said:


> Tom I have a super jolly and a classic. Really didn't break the bank. Well it did. But my bank was tiny! Not much in the way of work, just keep it clean. Certainly less hassle than some gadgetry (the hours spent scrubbing a George foreman grill!)


I just posted this http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?30706-Course-recomendations-for-comparison-of-machines-grinders-etc&p=408137#post408137

and think I need to establish what i think is important (grinder, machine etc) beofre i go spend money


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## UncleJake

tomloaf said:


> The general idea i get from people seems to be as follows.
> 
> Either spend lots of money of a good espresso machine and grinder and have a great set up buts costs good amounts of money
> 
> Alternativly the nex best option is to just carry on with frensh press and use one of those home milk frothers for latte's. Am I correct? If so is there a rolls royce of drip machines of french press and milk frothers?


Sort of...

Either spend money on a good grinder and a decent espresso machine (your initial £500-£750 is enough for some great kit), where, with some effort and application you can make great espresso and espresso-based milk drinks (Latte, Flat White etc).

Or use far cheaper machines to make tall coffee drinks - which you can add milk to if you like.

However - you can't make a latte with a French Press and a milk frother. You need espresso for that. In a latte - the milk is used to dilute the strong thick coffee solution, whereas in a French Press - the coffee is already diluted with much more water. Don't get me wrong - great coffee can be made with presses, and drips and other very inexpensive coffee makers - Aeropress etc - but you can't make espresso-based drinks without espresso.


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## tomloaf

UncleJake said:


> Sort of...
> 
> Either spend money on a good grinder and a decent espresso machine (your initial £500-£750 is enough for some great kit), where, with some effort and application you can make great espresso and espresso-based milk drinks (Latte, Flat White etc).
> 
> Or use far cheaper machines to make tall coffee drinks - which you can add milk to if you like.
> 
> However - you can't make a latte with a French Press and a milk frother. You need espresso for that. In a latte - the milk is used to dilute the strong thick coffee solution, whereas in a French Press - the coffee is already diluted with much more water. Don't get me wrong - great coffee can be made with presses, and drips and other very inexpensive coffee makers - Aeropress etc - but you can't make espresso-based drinks without espresso.


Can you not just make really strong coffee using the french press then use the milk to water it down? I know it wont be exactly the same but good enogh? (Sorry if this angers anyone)


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## Jason1wood

tomloaf said:


> Can you not just make really strong coffee using the french press then use the milk to water it down? I know it wont be exactly the same but good enogh? (Sorry if this angers anyone)


Tom, I'd suggest to go back to basics and have a read about the difference of brewing methods.

Strong coffee with a French Press isn't anywhere near an espresso, and using milk to water it down won't give you a latte.


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## Missy

To make anything close to strong enough would almost certainly taste rank.


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## tomloaf

I already make my french press very strong at the moment as I like it that way.


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## hotmetal

Yeah but to get it from 'strong FP' to 'comparable with espresso' you'd need to distil it. In all honesty if I had your budget I'd probably get a Super Jolly and an HX used off a forum regular, if espresso and espresso-based milk drinks is the desired end result.


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## twotone

I use an Alessi mocha pot at the moment and make cafe au lait with half milk in the microwave (fresh beans though) and it's pretty decent but it's nowhere near a cappuchino.

I've had a Gaggia classic and an Iberital MC2 which is a good combination but it takes forever to make a cappa (well it did with my set up) I then bought an Expobar DB and Fiorenzato F4e grinder for £1400 and my goodness the difference was night and day and a complete joy compared to the Gaggia/Iberital setup however I had to sell my Expobar and grinder to pay my tax bill last year but I've since bought a La Cimbali commercial grinder second hand from this forum and it is a monster of a thing but grinds beautifully, I'm just waiting on delivery of a second hand espresso machine also bought from on here from a long term member, my outlay this time for both the grinder and the espresso machine is about £360.

Good luck.

Tony


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