# build quality of espresso machines between brands



## hayhayc (Apr 5, 2021)

Hi, Im a newbie looking to purchase my first espresso machine

After lurking the forum for a week or so, with my budget, I am thinking of getting a HX machine. Although I dont think I will be able to immediately adjust temp and all that, overall it seems worthwhile to get one with a PID so that its available for me to play with down the road.

List of machine I have in mind:

Profitec Pro 500 PID

Bezzera magica PID

Lalit Mara X

izzo vivi PID

honourable mention Crem one HX but some post mention its made in china so go right to the bottom on my list

As all these brands are new to me, I just want to know whether there are much difference between building quality and reliability between these machines. The Mara X seems very popular with its clever function but I also noticed there are some threads about reliability issue. The biggest price difference between these machine is 400 pounds. However, will the extra price actually bring better build quality and reliability or am I just paying more for the badge?


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

There are pros and cons for all the machines on your list.

As we offer 2 of them I may as well give you my thoughts.

Bezzera Magica PID - Bezzera are a long established company (100+ years) and they are still owned and run on a day to day basis by the Bezzera family. They manufacture a very large percentage of their products in house rather than contracting out parts supply. They believe this gives them the better quality control from start to finish. They are by no means the cheapest machines on the market and from talking to Luca Bezzera they have no desire to race to the bottom on price and sacrifice quality to build market share. I respect that and I can attest to the build of their machines. I am very proud to offer them.

Izzo Vivi - Izzo revolutionised the domestic market. They bought many firsts to the market such as the rotary pump hx machine (Alex) and the db machine (Alex Duetto). Spec for spec against some of their competitors they can appear a little expensive but they have great attention to detail on the machines like boiler drain valves, dual wall cool touch casing, boiler insulation, dual manometers etc that justifies the premium in my opinion (especially given we have the Vivi on sale). They are very well put together, carefully designed machines and they are logically laid out which makes a big difference for maintenance.

Performance on both machines will be similar.

The bottom line is yes there certainly is a difference in build quality between manufacturers and only you as an individual can decide where your balance between cost/performance/features etc is. It is a shame you are not able to get your hands on some machines as it is difficult to tell on a website!

David


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I think it's worth mentioning that is some respects dual boiler machines are easier to use as the brew temperature is accurately controlled. HX machines can need flushing at various times to provide water at the temperature it should be at rather than too hot.

Also that given that a machine has one boiler doesn't always mean it's a true HX machine. Some variants take water directly from the steam boiler and it's expected to loose heat on it's way out. There is also a type that should be called single boiler dual use. Boiler temperature is changed according to if steam or brewing is required. Ok but switching between the 2 is by no means instantaneous. These do give the degree of control that a dual boiler can offer.

I do not know how the machines you mention fit in with this but it was an area that caused me some confusion when I started looking at machines. The other problem is brew temperature. Precisely 93C is needed for perfect coffee and some other factors need to perfect as well. The web and other areas don't help with that. In practice it isn't as bad as that but there are limits especially on temperature as it does change taste but not by much within limits. Some people prefer what comes out of an HX machine naturally when it's just used. Others would argue they have no taste. Lots of coffee shops use them but usually with volumetric machines that make the whole process look a lot easier than it usually is for home espresso brewing.

As David said really it's a case of taking your pick. HX isn't something I have personally used. The above figured in my choice and the fact that one machine I looked at wasn't really an HX machine  caused me even more concern. Seems those are called dippers. The dual use boilers are more feasible for me now as I don't make milk based drinks, only americano.  My wife uses her bean to cup now but visitor may want milk based.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

hayhayc said:


> Hi, Im a newbie looking to purchase my first espresso machine
> 
> After lurking the forum for a week or so, with my budget, I am thinking of getting a HX machine. Although I dont think I will be able to immediately adjust temp and all that, overall it seems worthwhile to get one with a PID so that its available for me to play with down the road.
> 
> ...


 I'd ignore any HX but the Mara X. Temp management is too much of an issue though I believe some commercial units get around this because of the length of the HX pipe. A PID on an ordinary HX is basically a better alternative to a thermostat, you'll still have to manage brew temp...though I guess there's potential to set it at a very low temp to avoid over heating the hx but it's probably not that simple. The more consistent your machine is the better chance you have of getting consistent results.

Build quality? Difficult to really define. Some people think a heavier machine and thicker steel makes it a better build quality, but so long as the machine can withstand the forces placed on it (e.g. locking portafilter in, weight of the group etc) it's built properly. Is one better quality than another for being in excess of what is required? It seems reasonable to have the opinion it is I guess but I'd ask why it matters. It's seems less reasonable to look at build quality in that way when you're comparing two machines that are both over engineered to different extents which is often the case with espresso machine of this standard.

Most problems you'll see with machines are related to faulty temperature probes or solenoids or even gicar boards and these a usually common parts used in multiple machines so in that sense they are all prone to going wrong. You'll naturally see more reports of some machines than others because of how popular they are with people who come to the forum. DaveC reviewed the Minima, Lelit Mara X among many others and people looking at those reviews find themselves directed to this forum. Sometimes a small error in assembly can affect an entire batch, like a gicar controller being tightened down too much with cables routed underneath it causing problems with an auto-fill probe (minima) or a bad batch of temperature probes affecting multiple machines from multiple manufacturers.

The Decent is made in Taiwan. No reason to discount machines because of where they're made. The Crem might be manufactured back in Spain now, is that better?


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## hayhayc (Apr 5, 2021)

thanks for the insight.

It is indeed very annoying that I can't visit the shops to actually see these machines in real life as it would definitely help instead of just watching youtube videos.

I suppose the minima is within budget and it will be a DB so it really tick most boxes. Although have no idea why but I seems to like the idea of a lever to start the brewing instead of just switch. But I actually really like the look of it with that shaped 'legs'. Maybe I should put it on my list too (although the idea of opening this thread is hoping to narrow down the list instead of extending it lol)

The Mara X seems very popular and understandably there are more fault mention on the forum, after all people tend to post problem/fault more often than positive reviews. I think when I say building quality, I am more thinking about reliability. If its like comparing a VW and Audi, then im happy to keep my money and buy the cheaper one. But if its between a VW and Kia, then I'll be willing to pay that bit extra, if you see what I mean.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@hayhayc The solenoid E61 group has some advantages, namely:



Backflushing with cleaner as often as you want


Virtually maintenance free


If you do ever need to replace anything, it's 1 solenoid that undoes like a bayonet light bulb once the outer coil is slid off....and usually just the core needs replacing which is very inexpensive. Even if it's the whole solenoid, it's often less expensive than a full E61 group service/replacement.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> The solenoid E61 group has some advantages, namely:


 Which one has that Dave ?

I feel I should also add that built in China in real terms depends on how much is spent there. If some one wants precision engineering and quality control suitable to go with that it isn't such a cheap place to have things made any more. Many higher volume consumer items are made there without any problems at all.  Some things may be knocked up in what are essentially no better than large sheds with rather limited equipment and with little care at all. Main thing then is that the go out of the door.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@ajohn This type, similar to one used on Minima.


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## LMartin (Nov 28, 2020)

@DavecUK so by virtue of removing the lever operation and having a switch elsewhere, a machine like the Minima actually reduces some of the downsides of the e61 in terms of cleaning and maintenance? wonder why more don't...? (although instinctively i'm with @hayhayc that there's something less pleasing about a switch)



DavecUK said:


> @ajohn This type, similar to one used on Minima.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> This type, similar to one used on Minima.


  I thought it wasn't clear for the OP

And geee same type of solenoid as used in the SDB.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

LMartin said:


> although instinctively i'm with @hayhayc that there's something less pleasing about a switch)


 It's still quite pleasing actually. Whilst operating a lever E61 seems more appealing, in practice I don't think it's worth the hassle with the additional maintenance required.

In my opinion the Minima is more than worth the extra £200-300 over a MaraX for temp stability and steam power. Looks are subjective so that can sway a buying decision. Some may also find the Minima pump noisy in comparison.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

LMartin said:


> @DavecUK so by virtue of removing the lever operation and having a switch elsewhere, a machine like the Minima actually reduces some of the downsides of the e61 in terms of cleaning and maintenance? wonder why more don't...? (although instinctively i'm with @hayhayc that there's something less pleasing about a switch)


 They don't because they believe customers want the lever E61...it's all about marketing. You don't get what you really need, but what they think you want. No one wants to upset the apple cart or take a risk by using the solenoid group, in case it affects sales.

Having a lever, means it also gets in the way....sure a switch might be less pleasing, but it depends what type of switch. if Solenoid groups became common, we would get touch thru metal switches....which could be very cool and there could be quite a lot more functions added. lets give you a few more potential advantages



More space on the drip tray, no lever to foul cups


Touch thru metal options for starting and stopping shot


safety features, e.g. leave the leaver up and you got a problem...pump will run until it either burnms out or empties tank...if you have a backflush filter loaded, will just run and run


Lever up at night and machine switched off, isn't shepherds delight in the morning. If you notice lever is up and put it down when machine cold...you probably got a dead heating element the next morning!! (drained brew boiler, exposed heating element, machines have no way of knowing


If you put an automatic pump cut out on a lever machine, then the tank doesn't drain and heating elements are not turned off on brew boiler (some don't anyway when tank emptied)...pop goes the weasel. Of course with a solenoid group, you can put a 120s cutout


Bluetooth and scales integration to stop shot, is not possible with a lever group, but can happen with a solenoid E61


Child proof lockout only possible with a solenoid E61


However, the pressure of marketing for lever E61 groups, means you won't get any of this, because it's not implementable with the lever version.


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## LMartin (Nov 28, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> They don't because they believe customers want the lever E61...it's all about marketing. You don't get what you really need, but what they think you want. No one wants to upset the apple cart or take a risk by using the solenoid group, in case it affects sales.
> 
> Having a lever, means it also gets in the way....sure a switch might be less pleasing, but it depends what type of switch. if Solenoid groups became common, we would get touch thru metal switches....which could be very cool and there could be quite a lot more functions added. lets give you a few more potential advantages
> 
> ...


 You've convinced me @DavecUK - that's a comprehensive list of advantages. Any other similar price point machines have the solenoid group? Or is the minima the trail blazer


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

LMartin said:


> You've convinced me @DavecUK - that's a comprehensive list of advantages. Any other similar price point machines have the solenoid group? Or is the minima the trail blazer


 Some others do have an E61 solenoid group, but nothing like the Minima and you have to remember that the Minima group has been custom drilled to take a pressure gauge that sit's straight and doesn't point to the left...this is because of the way solenoid groups are made and drilled as standard by all manufacturers of the groups.

Other times of switch operated groups are what they call the ring type on the Lelit Elizabeth...I've wanted to change views for years...but it's hard to convince manufacturers and the buyers need to have their minds and hearts won over....that's not easy.

Heres something I wanted Lelit to build. Inside this would have been the Elizabeth Steam boiler (600ml) and either a 400ml or 600ml brew boiler... So a clever clever dual boiler system, (all the Elizabeth Cleverness, with all the changes I asked for in the Elizabeth), in the MaraX case.









The reason they didn't want to build it....marketing, users like the lever on the E61....so you all got what they think you wanted. Instead you could have had this with a group pressure gauge like Bianca and optional profiling kit...with the same QuietX vibe pump.

I bet the solenoid group looks a whole lot better idea now!


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## hayhayc (Apr 5, 2021)

Wow if they actually listen and build that, take my money 💰

I think one of francino's have a similar looking group? I might be very wrong tho.

@DavecUKloved your review on both the minima and the mara x!

now the decision between the two become much harder!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> The reason they didn't want to build it....marketing, users like the lever on the E61....so you all got what they think you wanted. Instead you could have had this with a group pressure gauge like Bianca and optional profiling kit...with the same QuietX vibe pump.


 Surely there would be a price increase once they go in the direction your trying to set.

Personally I would say why an E61 head or one with the same general idea. Thermosyphon means a long heat up time. A lot of people like the look of the E61 style machine. Personally I don't see why but they do. It seems that a traditional look is desirable and functionality falls in some respect to 2nd place. So what if a back flush gets more complicated as they like it. Looks seems to attract people to a number of arrangements.

It's an archaic look really. As is the entire design.


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> safety features, e.g. leave the leaver up and you got a problem...pump will run until it either burnms out or empties tank...if you have a backflush filter loaded, will just run and run
> 
> 
> Lever up at night and machine switched off, isn't shepherds delight in the morning. If you notice lever is up and put it down when machine cold...you probably got a dead heating element the next morning!! (drained brew boiler, exposed heating element, machines have no way of knowing
> ...


 How are these addressed in the case of lever machines like ACS V-Vostok 1 Group, Londinium, Francino Retro , Profitec 800, etc?


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## LMartin (Nov 28, 2020)

@ajohn @DavecUK That's really interesting - do you think it's about looks alone? A forum member is currently selling a DE1 on these pages in part because (in their words) they "miss the romance of knobs and handles". Perhaps it is also genuine consumer preference not just assumed preference on the part of manufacturers?

I don't know, i'm relatively new to home espresso so interested in your thoughts... presumably there's something about craft and physical human interaction that first attracted many of us to coffee - if it was purely flavour we'd just frequent local speciality cafes, if it was purely technology then things like auto steam wands would be commonplace etc.

I know for me that having been very happy for the best part of a decade hand grinding and using aeropress that there must be some physical, tactile interaction with the end product. And maybe a lever on an e61 has some strange subconscious marginal benefit over a switch or touch through metal switches...

Or maybe I'm just overcomplicating it 🤷‍♂️



ajohn said:


> Surely there would be a price increase once they go in the direction your trying to set.
> 
> Personally I would say why an E61 head or one with the same general idea. Thermosyphon means a long heat up time. A lot of people like the look of the E61 style machine. Personally I don't see why but they do. It seems that a traditional look is desirable and functionality falls in some respect to 2nd place. So what if a back flush gets more complicated as they like it. Looks seems to attract people to a number of arrangements.
> 
> It's an archaic look really. As is the entire design.





DavecUK said:


> Some others do have an E61 solenoid group, but nothing like the Minima and you have to remember that the Minima group has been custom drilled to take a pressure gauge that sit's straight and doesn't point to the left...this is because of the way solenoid groups are made and drilled as standard by all manufacturers of the groups.
> 
> Other times of switch operated groups are what they call the ring type on the Lelit Elizabeth...I've wanted to change views for years...but it's hard to convince manufacturers and the buyers need to have their minds and hearts won over....that's not easy.
> 
> ...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

LMartin said:


> Or maybe I'm just overcomplicating it


 I think there is an element of "fun" involved. Not sure what word to use. I recollect some one buying a hefty single boiler machine where the way to get to brew temperature quickly was to let off clouds of steam. He was looking forward to that. Another where some one switched from a Sage DB to E61 as they wanted more ritual to their coffee making. Then there are machines with long levers sticking out. These even change the taste of the coffee. On some get it wrong and probably destroy it. Then adding profiling to an E61 and adjusting flow manually. This can be done on other machines as well. It changes taste. I am doing the same sort of thing automatically on an SDB at the moment. Does the bean taste as it should - no. Is it a nice drink - depends on how I look at it. It's stronger but I could achieve that via more coffee.

Then as it not easy to rattle of consistent drinks at home it is something of a hobby. On all hobbies people will spend more if they can on the basis that it what ever it is will be better. My hobby is press button coffee so spend time on preparing grinds to achieve it and try different ways. I can change various thing about how the machine works and do at times. My real hobby though is drinking coffee and trying different beans and see what I can do with them and most of all enjoying the taste.

E61 has been pushed and pushed and is more expensive than other approaches. My view of some of them is that they look like they should be in dolls houses. Some larger ones IMHO have better proportions but are a rave from the past really.  For me anyway. I use a machine where a bunch of engineers in Oz went their own way.  Odd thing is some things they did seem to be creeping into others. There are reasons why some wont buy these machines. Then, electronics which some see as always going wrong. A straight E61 machine is very simple in this respect. Add a solenoid and it is something that can fail. Against that E61 heads need lubricating. Solenoid arrangements are used in a number of machines - some cheap ones.

 No encourage from retail to spend more and more money of course.


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## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

A lot of it is the hobbyist's attraction to shiny chrome stuff. There is definitely an element of nostalgia and romance attached to the 'traditional' look which people are willing to pay a premium for (plus general consensus of more chrome + wood = better). These are luxury items largely marketed on how the buyer feels about the machine and how well it fits into their vision of themselves - and less so on a pure utilitarian basis. I think a good analogy is road cycling, mountain bikes have had single sided forks, full suspension and hydraulic disc breaks for years; a lot of road purists are just starting to accept disc breaks and tyres that are bigger than 25c, with some arguing that the ability to reliably stop the bike in all conditions (a purely functional safety improvement) 'ruins' the romance of cycling.


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

I loved my minima, and it ticked all the boxes for me (interesting design, value for money, solid in the cup) but I had the first batch and it was unreliable.

My profitec 700 has been rock solid every day.

Bezzera are also solid in my experience.

I do miss the solenoid on the minima.


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## iBear87 (Sep 12, 2021)

Hi everyone!

So a quick question on top of this discussion, did Minima improve on the reliability and build? Worth it in 2021?

I am looking into Profitec pro 500, MAYBE 600, Mara X and Flair 58. Minima looks great but not sure about the quality at this point....

Best regards,

Ivan


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

iBear87 said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> So a quick question on top of this discussion, did Minima improve on the reliability and build? Worth it in 2021?
> 
> ...


 We are the U.K. dealer but I'll give you my thoughts and experience on the Minima and hopefully some current owners can chime in too.

There were some niggles in the early batch which was mainly related to the service boiler overfilling. ACS are very proactive with this sort of thing and found the cause very quickly and this hasn't been a problem since.

We have sold a lot of Minimas now and whilst no electrical or mechanical device is infallible, the issues we have sorted under warranty are in line with other manufacturers we sell. The last thing we as a company would want is a 'problem child' machine with lots of unhappy customers - if we had any concerns about it we simply wouldn't offer it anymore regardless of how good they are when functioning.

The design is not for everyone (although they look way better in the flesh than pictures I feel) but the build is great. Yes the water tank isn't quite as sturdy as I'd like but it gets the job done and it is ultimately a small niggle. The gauge of steel on the Minima is on par with commercial machines. It is rock solid.

In terms of are they worth it in 2021 - I do not know of a machine on the market that can match it for the price. Bang for buck it is IMO still the top of the tree.


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## thewelshvet (Dec 9, 2016)

The minima is the machine I'm saving up for. What is the lead time like on ordering them? The black machine with the wood looks amazing!!


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

thewelshvet said:


> The minima is the machine I'm saving up for. What is the lead time like on ordering them? The black machine with the wood looks amazing!!


 We aim to keep stock all the time. Unfortunately we didn't factor in the summer break in Italy and our latest batch was stuck without a haulier to bring them over for about three week but they will be with us very shortly now 👍


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## thewelshvet (Dec 9, 2016)

I shall have to keep a watch on the site!!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

iBear87 said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> So a quick question on top of this discussion, did Minima improve on the reliability and build? Worth it in 2021?
> 
> ...


 The early Minimas suffered from a grounding issue causing the service boiler to overfill. "Build quality" is a bit of a vague catch all. There was never a problem with the parts, but in assembly some wires were pinched. They solved the problem by adding spacers to the gicar allowing wires underneath, and I think also relocated the grounding wire but I'm not too sure about that. if you think of build quality in terms of finishing (shiny, polished) then the build quality isn't as good as some others but in terms of reliability there shouldn't be any issues. I heard they're using better solenoid valves too now, though before they were still high quality commercial parts. I struggle to think of what you could meaningfully upgrade to in remotely the same price range from the Minima after adding a flow control valve to the group.....a Vesuvius, Vostok, Slayer, GS3, DE1?


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## iBear87 (Sep 12, 2021)

Thank you all for your commentary! 🙂

one more question I'd ask is:

how would you compare it to Lelit Bianca if we put the flow profiling aside? (One can buy the kit and add it to Minima later on). 
Would any one of the two come up as the definitely better one or the two are both equally good machines?

I'm currently stuck deciding between the two.

Ivan


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

iBear87 said:


> Thank you all for your commentary! 🙂
> 
> one more question I'd ask is:
> 
> ...


 If you have the money then definitely go for Bianca. Easy decision!😃


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@iBear87 - I'd agree with @profesor_historia , for the following reasons:

- Bianca has a Rotary pump (therefore is very quiet);
- Bianca has a flow profile already installed;
- Bianca comes with a tamper; (minor detail, but a nice touch);
- Bianca is more traditionally looking, more compact;
- Bianca can have the tank placed at different positions:

However, he Minima has a few good points going for it:

- solenoid operated brew group; (does not require any periodic maintenance);
- simplicity: No Lelit Control Center equivalent, just box standard switches and controllers.
- looks great in black or white, and very easy to keep it clean!

@Cuprajake can answer any of your questions, as he had both machines, the Minima equipped with a flow profile even. If I'm not mistaken, he ended up with the Bianca as the noise from the Minima pump was too loud for him. He also said, if memory serves me well, that both machines produce excellent coffee if not the exact same.

@iBear87 - personally, if you would go for the Bianca, it's worthwhile checking the Classifieds as Paolo Cortese from ACS is doing an amazing deal on the ACS Vesuvius. For very little more (in the grand scheme of things) you could end up with a fully fledged pressure profiling machine!

Edit: My secretary just corrected me and said the Minima is a more compact machine by all accounts. I then double checked and I stand corrected. 👍


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I'd rather go for the Minima purely for the solenoid e61. My beta is louder than production machines and it is annoying but it's not like it makes noise beyond the 40 or so seconds it takes to make coffee and clean the group. I'm still tempted to look into getting the Mara X pump in there though.... If they were both the same price or close the Bianca is better value objectively speaking though.

There are other machines worth considering as mentioned above (discounted V if you have the space).


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## iBear87 (Sep 12, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @iBear87 - I'd agree with @profesor_historia , for the following reasons:
> 
> - Bianca has a Rotary pump (therefore is very quiet);
> - Bianca has a flow profile already installed;
> ...


 Thnx for the advice but the price is out of my range. I can get Bianca for around 1800€. And if I order it from Paolo it would be around 2350€ plus import tax and VAT for Croatia. So I will stay with Bianca in this respect 

But, nonetheless, looks like a great deal.

Ivan


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@iBear87 Read the advert carefully rather than make assumptions about import tax and VAT.


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## iBear87 (Sep 12, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @iBear87 Read the advert carefully rather than make assumptions about import tax and VAT.


 Sure 🙂

But even as that, still out of perceived investment range.

But in general, great offer.


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