# Upgrade from my gaggia classic



## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

After some advice on upgrading from my gaggia classic.

Cannot get a decent shot from it for some reason I think it's running too hot.

Had it for over a year and half and it's always after a lot of practice and failures it was producing some quality shots for me as I only drink espresso really.

I order my beans from Rave and have ones I re order every month due to the ease of shot production for me . I also try a couple of new ones every month.

for last month I cannot get a decent shot from the machine and I have even gone back to weighing and timing which I haven't done for a long time.

Even tried some Costco beans to make sure wasn't beans from Rave but same results very bitter.

Need a fix or new machine really . I. Am limited to space so can't really be going for a big machine.

Budget it quite flexible if machine will fit my needs.

Thanks Paul


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Pid can change this but there is always a limit with the classic mostly in terms of consistency. Weighing and timing are alwsys essential in my opinion regardless machine.


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## clickhappy (Feb 1, 2012)

Hi stevo,

Have you given your machine and grinder a good clean recently. Mine started tasting bad (also using a gaggia classic) and this sorted it.

Tom


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I've got a Classic with the Auber Pid which the previous owner fitted. I can't say that a Pid will cure the problem because I've never used a Classic without one. As such I can only say that I'm fairly happy with the results I'm getting (although that's not to say I'm immune from upgrade fever). But at least I know what the temperature is doing.

One way you could try to see if it is too hot would be to stick a thermometer directly under the shower screen and see what is coming out. It won't be very accurate (will probably read low) but might help you rule overheating in or out. If you're getting well above 94° C even out of the shower screen then it may be too hot. If it bubbles out like it does when you refill the boiler after steaming then it's definitely too hot but this seems unlikely. Not sure what you could do about it though, and it seems unlikely - why would it get hotter? You could try a short 'cooling flush' and then pull a shot and see if it tastes better. If so that would support your theory but would be too hit and miss to accept as a solution; just a test.

I am more inclined to think it could be something to do with cleanliness (no offence!) as in have you checked the tank and pipes for any build-up? Have you ever backflushed with Cafiza? The bitterness is very likely a build up of rancid coffee oils if you have never done a chemical backflush. Have you cleaned under the shower screen?

I would certainly look at those things before ditching it and upgrading.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

I am with Hotmetal on this, I think your problem is the need for deep clean. A build up of rancid coffee oils behind the shower screen AND the dispersion block (aluminium block behind screen) can cause coffee to taste horrible. Remove the screen and the block behind and give a thorough clean, also clean behind the block..

Regarding temperature, if the stat is giving trouble it usually runs cool rather than hot. A replacement is a simple job and fairly cheap £ 5 / 6 should cover it Un plug M/ch remove top 2 screws pull off two wires unscrew stat and screw in new one, re fit wires replace top. Cheaper than "upgradeitis"


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

El carajillo said:


> I am with Hotmetal on this, I think your problem is the need for deep clean. A build up of rancid coffee oils behind the shower screen AND the dispersion block (aluminium block behind screen) can cause coffee to taste horrible. Remove the screen and the block behind and give a thorough clean, also clean behind the block..
> 
> Regarding temperature, if the stat is giving trouble it usually runs cool rather than hot. A replacement is a simple job and fairly cheap £ 5 / 6 should cover it Un plug M/ch remove top 2 screws pull off two wires unscrew stat and screw in new one, re fit wires replace top. Cheaper than "upgradeitis"


Cheers all for advice

I am going to follow all advice but I'm unsure on a few things.

I have cleaned shower screen it was quite dirty.

Havnt done the block yet.

How do I perform a chemical flush ?

Also how do I clean my grinder thoroughly . I usually just suck all excess out with a Hoover .I have a fiorenzata f5 grinder.

thanks Paul


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Disperstion plate is easy to remove and clean , it's just two Allen bolts .


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Chemical back flush is simple. You'll need some Cafiza or the Pulycafe equivalent. You literally only need half a teaspoon (3g) but they sell it by the Kilo (or something) annoyingly. Have you got a blind basket (aka backflush disc, i.e. a basket with no holes? ). If so, put half a teaspoon of cleaner in the blind basket. Lock in the portafilter to the group, turn the brew switch on and let the pressure build up for 5-10 seconds. Turn brew switch off. The solenoid will open and a load of brown bubbly water will shoot down the silver pipe into the drip tray. Do this about 5x or until the waste water is white suds rather than skanky ditch water! That is the rancid oils being dissolved by the detergent and washed out of the group/solenoid. Now remove the PF, rinse the basket, and repeat until the water coming out of the pipe is clear and soap-free. That's all there is to it. If you are mechanically sympathetic you'll be screwing your eyes up running the pump for 10 sec into a blind basket but it's fine. The idea is to allow pressure to build up so it goes back through the system. Cafiza is just a detergent that is good at dissolving old coffee oils and can be used on shower screens, dispersion blocks and the inside of your portafilter. As long as you don't walk off and leave the pump running for too long, and rinse the system through thoroughly with clean water afterwards, you should end up with much nicer tasting shots. Nothing complicated about doing it. But a tub of Cafiza will last you your whole life. I wonder if people leave half-empty tubs of it to their kids in their will? !


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

There is a good video of how to clean the brew group on YouTube






Hope these are of help.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Three videos are worth a thousand words! Even better that the videos demonstrate it on the Classic. The OP will have this sorted the same day the postie delivers his cafiza. Well found.


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Great videos ,cheers all for advice again.

I have blank PF. Any advantage or better way to clean grinder?

Cafiza on order £8 900g. Need to order myself some decent espresso beans now.

Any other decent vendors apart from Rave for espresso beans .

thanks Paul


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Re beans

Hasbean , Smokeybarn , extract , foundry roasters

There is a big list of online vendors in the beans section


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## noelweston (Oct 7, 2012)

The first (and so far only) thing to fail on my classic was the water thermostat - like yours, it just seemed to be running hotter for a while and then suddenly got worse.

In addition to the clean & flush, it might well be worth replacing one or both stats for peace of mind.


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Cheers


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

steve, just remove the burr carrier of the f5 and have a look inside, check for any build up of grinds, you will find grounds in the burr carrier assembly but there wont be that much on that grinder unless you have been using oily beans.


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Any advice or guidance on changing the stats.(are there 2?)were would i order them from and is it easy job.

Also Dave how do i remove the Burr carrier.

And finally is it easy to fit a PID?

pheww


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## Wuyang (Mar 21, 2014)

Funny that, I opened a thread not to long back saying my last lot of rave beans had an awful background taste to them on my Gaggia Classic........my shop bought taylors were much better....odd........,,,,had some suggestions regarding weighing the shot produced........just thinking about re ordering some more rave beans,,,,I hope I have better success this time


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Ok here's my update.

Gave the classic a good clean with the Cafiza ..must admit it was pretty skanky .

Gave all bits head shower cover a good soak and back flushed a good few times until clear.

Waited on arrival of some Brighton lanes beans from compass.

I decided to go back to time and dose .

I'm quite fine on the grind and I'm dosing 18g in double basket for 26 secs.

Getting a really nice espresso hit with nice sweet aftertaste off the beans (best beans I've had since the java jam pit beans from Rave a good 6 months ago).

I'm still convinced that the machine is running hot though.

I'm pressing the button quite early after the machine is switched on,after first on off on light.

If I leave it 10 mins it's definitely too hot .

Tried to measure temp but not great results with milk thermometer.


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## frustin (Feb 10, 2013)

For my classic, I backflush once a week (or after 250g of beans) as it only takes 5mins. I also descale once every 1kg of beans (which is about monthly), though I live in a hard water area.


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Steve as advices above just get a new stat and change it so you can be sure about the temperature.


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Can anyone point me to a decent supplier for both stats coffee and steam...

Looked at the videos to change and seems pretty easy.

Convinced coffee therm is running hot i have left machine on a few times now for 10mins to see and difference from pulling shot after machine has been just switched on for lets say 2mins is massive.

Going to swop both therms out..

Am i right reading that the coffee therm should be running water at 94-96 degrees?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sorry can't help you with where to buy from.

Leaving any machine to heat up effectively will improve the shots.

Just beacuse a thermometer somewhere inthe boiler says water is up to temp , doesn't mean that the machine and the group head are up to temp .

Your shots after two minutes will be sourish due to being extracted at a low temperature .

If you want to effectively manage the temp on your classic then fitting some form of PID will help regulate it .

Search the forum for classic pid I'm sure tons of thread will come up ....


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Have toyed with the PID fitting...

The earlier i pull the shot ie first 2 minutes the better the shot for me anyway..

If i leave the machine for longer than 2 minutes then thats when im getting burnt beans (or thats what it seems like) and the shot is terrible.

Maybe like you say the PID option is for me ...then there can be no doubt


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

2 minutes isn't long enough for any machine to heat properly

Even something like a sage takes 3 minutes and this is with a heated group ( which the gaggia doesn't have )

Are you using any kind of temperature surfing method , for when to extract your shot

What coffee are you using , what grinder , what basket

What's your coffee dose by weight

What weight of coffee are you extracting

And over roughly what time

Bitter = extraction at too higher a temp ( unlikely with a machine only on for 3 minutes ) OR too much coffee at too tight a grind


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Grinder is Fiorenzato F5

Using Compass Brighton Lanes Beans

Quite fine grind

18G im using double basket

26secs

Tamping by feel .

I will time the exact time to first shot pull today ,however it is around the 2-3 minute range ,admittedly i did do this on my watch not proper timer.

(thanks for link by the way watching now)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The blend is a dark roast blend

Ive not tried it but people relate it a in the dark bakers chcolate range of flavours ( to some this may be bitter, we experience the same thing taste wise differently don't worry )

I suspect you may be compensating for the dark roasted blend by pulling the shot at a really low temp ( 2-3 minutes in ) to Negate what your are experiencing as bitterness .

Are you saying it takes 26 seconds to get a shot , how much ?

Try coarsening the grind

Put 18g in a basket

Extract 34-36 g out after the machine has heated up a decent time (15-20 minutes )

Taste , report back .

It may be this coffee isn't to your taste , but try changing brew ratios when the machine is heated up correctly

Also search for temperature surfing gaggia Classic


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Classic needs to be on a minimum of 20mins, 30 is better I found. I'm sure I've posted about temp surfing on the Classic.

From memory it's flush through approx 1oz of water through the group. Put PF in, Wait for light to go off then pull the shot as soon as the light went on.

There's other ways to do this but this is the one that worked for me.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Have you read the thread on 'so you've just bought a Gaggia Classic', there's some useful stuff in there.

If you're still concerned about the temp it might be worth trying the styrofoam cup test (which I think is in a link on the same thread).


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Think i need to read up a bit ie the just bought a Gaggia classic thread..

Thing is i went through a lot of Jampit this year from Rave and the shots were unbelievably good.

I also tried Serrano superior and the signature blend all gave a more than decent shot..

I am solely an espresso drinker and like it strong and sweetish with chocolaty hints..

What bothered me was over the last few months i have had really bad shots from what were my go to beans.

This then sent me on a quest for another perfect bean thus i ordered lots of weird and wonderful 250g bags ,none of which hit the mark.

The beans im on now after a good clean of the machine (Brighton Lanes) are 100% better than what ive been getting over the last 2 months..

However it seems i need to read up a lot ..Have taken it for granted a little bit the perfect shot as probably by luck the large amounts of jampit i consumed gave me the taste i was looking for.

Reading required .

Cheers all i will report back.


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Update time.

After good read on gaggia forum I'm pretty happy with temp of machine now and I think it's just my imagination due to dirtiness of machine prior to the clean.

I have spent last week or so altering baskets and times and weights .

Have finished Brighton lanes beans and must say really impressed however don't think I got best out of them.

I'm now flicking between sweet burboun and mahogany roast Jampit from compass.

Problem I now have is I've moved to newer basket don't think it's a vst but it's a look a like ( not sure we're I got it)

its 17g on side of basket .

I'm trying to dose at 20g for 26 secs on a fine grind .

After reading some other threads I'm not really getting the weighing out of the espresso.

I'm weighing the cup I'm using it weighs 185g

After shot it's weighing its 295g. Is that telling me the shots 110g.

Really confusing me this..are my scales ok ? Seem fine as they work to weigh basket and the grind.

would I benefit from better basket also .Seems the classic will not take a 20g vst? That the case?

Really got some great instruction from gaggia forum . Should of really read up sooner...typical man doesn't read the instructions ..

im nearly back on track on my shots but need some fine tuning and advice..

advice appreciatated


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

It's an 18 g vst I wouldn't dose more than 19 g in

It's dose level is 17-19g ideally

If you want to dose 20g I'd get w bigger basket and a naked PF

You need a naked PF to accommodate a bigger basket that will give you some headroom

Can you not tar your scales after you have put the cup on them


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Let's try an example

Dose 18 g

Put cup on scale , tare it to zero

For example, sake let's aim for 36g out

This is a brew ratio of 1:2

You may wish to aim for say a ratio of 1:1.6

This would give you a output of 30-31g

Push button, start time

Aim to get to 36 g ( or whatever weight you want given the brew ratio you want , or like to use )

Within say 25-30 seconds

Taste

Adjust time or ratio based on taste


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## Bigpikle (Oct 14, 2014)

^^ as MrBoots said - you're weighing the wrong bit.

Weigh dry ground coffee you put in the basket.

Place scales on the drip tray and the cup on top of them, and after zeroing the scales you weigh how much liquid is coming into the cup.

This is what becomes the brew ratio eg 1g of dry coffee:2g of liquid in the cup (1:2), or whatever ratio appeals to your palette.


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Ok that's explained it better to me.

However just had first attempt .

Weighed out 18g into basket.fine grind using mahogany roast

Moved drip tray to accommodate scales .

Placed scales under shower head .Placed cup on scales .

Started shot .

28 secs gave me 70g.

Once again in not sure how much espresso I'm expecting. I bought a double espresso cup from ikea about year ago and I'm used to getting to a certain level in that. If I go off the level then it tallys with the 70 g I've just pulled.

Could it be I've been extracting too much for a long time.I was using 2 single illy shot cups previous to the double shot cup.Shot wasn't too bad a tad bitter though.

Doubting myself again now.


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## Bigpikle (Oct 14, 2014)

That would usually be considered FAR too much and taste will reflect it. You should be expecting something around 27-36g for a 'normale' giving a 1:1.5-1:2 brew ratio. A 'lungo' might be up to 54g or so for a typical 1:3 but you are obviously well outside that.

You probably need to start by grinding a lot finer to slow down the extraction, assuming your distribution in the basket and tamping is about OK. That's probably a first place to start.

There are some really good videos on ChefSteps that discuss the whole weighing, grinding, brew ratio thing on their class on espresso making.


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Gonna go a lot finer on grind and tamp a bit more .

Also may go back to illy single shotters to give me a better idea.

Must admit do get decent rush form my espressos shots ,specially first thing in the morning..


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Illy single shots? What do you mean? Dosing at 7g is a bit of a pointless errand if you're referring to that


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

No dosing double but into two single shot cups..to get better idea of volume..

Had another few attempts last night but went far too fine on the grind got about 10g out over 30 secs..was very very slow ...and shot was quite cold.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Well the 18>70 @28" would explain the bitterness, you're over extracting by a long way and anything over 50 is going to be unbalanced in bitterness direction because that's the component that comes out last. Once you get dialled in for, say, 18>[email protected]" or thereabouts you'll get a very different tasting shot, less bitter, some more acidity and more mouthfeel. Sounds like you went a bit too fine on grind but back it off a little and you should find the right spot where your dose, tamp and grind all come together. Plus if you get the right volume in the right time it won't be cold. Always worth pre-warming the portafilter and cup though.


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Thanks . I've going to order a blind portafilter and a new vst basket . I'm not convinced with this new basket I have been trialling . I'm also going to order some more Brighton lanes beans as they seemed to give me the closest taste to my liking not too sure on these mahogany roast jampit beans they are very oily . Struggling to dial them in as well as the extraction time an weighing. May need an easier bean to play with.


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