# Brewed coffee grind references



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I've posted a chart of grind sizes & recipes on my google page. I wouldn't try and print it...seems to be 1200 odd pages, a symptom of being imported from an old XL.

I'll add more methods & brew sizes as time goes on. Brewers are listed in alphabetical order, scroll down to see them all.

All are the result of multiple brews (minimum x10), each with a different origin &/or roast.

Go by the Kruve/ISO sieve results, rather than the numbered grind settings. Sifting was carried out by hand, 2 minutes per sample, side to side with occasional downwards & sideways taps.

"Kruve not interlocking", means that for each sieve size, I show the specific result for that sieve alone. (If they were interlocking & I used 1200 & 1600 together, I might see 80% below 1200, 15% above, plus 5% above 1600. But this is described as 20% over 1200 and 5% above 1600 in the sheet.) Anyone with Kruve has the 400 size, so it's fine to just go by that (within a % or two), bearing in mind grinder construction (so steel burr hand grinders with steel burrs & bearing support can be similar, but Porlex/Hario will differ for that recipe, as may a flat grinder).

Sifting was just used for calibration, not for discarding any portion of the ground weight.

Feel free to ask any questions, it looks straightforward to me...but then I guess it would 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1p-SFk1gUI_KtBNcdvdGjcptQeRhZZNwHq6RlKfVtbAI/edit?usp=sharing


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

I heard Kruve created a new gadget called "Brewler", but seems bit like a missed opportunity..

I haven't used Kruve in a while, but going by Comandante vs Kinu M47 (standard burrs) - there is something to be said about burrs with slightly wider distribution, but producing less fines to produce bit more interesting cups. Has this been your experience?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

the_partisan said:


> I heard Kruve created a new gadget called "Brewler", but seems bit like a missed opportunity..
> 
> I haven't used Kruve in a while, but going by Comandante vs Kinu M47 (standard burrs) - there is something to be said about burrs with slightly wider distribution, but producing less fines to produce bit more interesting cups. Has this been your experience?


 Yeah, I just don't understand how you use the Brewler. For example the V60 grind I used was 12% below 400, 5% over 1600. So 83% falling between 400 1600. Brewler has intervals of 100Kruve, so divide 83% by 12 = 7% per 100Kruve. When you look at a sample of grinds it's going to have particles that match every hole on the Brewler. How do you then, by eye, determine how many % of the sample match each hole? Seems like a real backward step to all those useless, "look at my grind pictures" people post. 

I think we tend to assume it's just the smaller end of the grinds that cause the majority of issues, but I reckon that even grinds approaching the median point can be small enough to be detrimental (I suspect that during pouring/agitation, particles also continue to break up, and/or release fines that were bound to them by static), so maybe sure, a slower ramp up in size could be beneficial as long as the larger end isn't so out of control it keeps extractions abnormally low.

Not so wide as to be Porlex/Hario wide, but maybe around what might be considered average, rather than tight distribution? For a given average grind size, or 84% point, a tighter distribution inevitable means a higher % of smaller particles.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Yes, it's not exactly an "invention" to make it possible to have an easy way to reference grind size by microns

I've noticed this with the slower hand grinders like Comandante as well as the "brew burr" for M47 - it takes about 2 to 3 times as long to grind, gives a wider distribution, but still only a few % >1600. I guess with drip brews, you just want to it coarse enough to give you a representative cup and to minimize silt/astringency by controlling number of smaller particles, and you don't really get better tasting cups through chasing higher extractions. At least personally, I don't care so much about the style of very high extraction drip - it's not really what I look for in that style of coffee.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MWJB said:


> For a given average grind size, or 84% point, a tighter distribution inevitable means a higher % of smaller particles.


 Sorry, got that backwards, for a given 16% (or 10-20%) point (which seems to give common flow/extractions for drip) you get more smaller particles overall, with a tighter distribution. Less smaller particles with a tight distribution as you look for common points nearer the coarse end, but if the smaller range drops too far under-extraction can be a problem, as the bed provides too little resistance.



the_partisan said:


> At least personally, I don't care so much about the style of very high extraction drip - it's not really what I look for in that style of coffee


 Sure, I tend to find that after a point, enough extraction is enough & that silt is much more likely to be detrimental as you push finer for very high yields. Very high yields with fine grinds don't always stand up to scrutiny when you filter the samples either.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Clever Dripper 20:225g, coarse, 1min steep added.


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## Zephyp (Mar 1, 2017)

Great data, Mark, as always. I have some of your other sheets on the list in my drive and the combination of your meticulousness, knowledge about statistics, coffee and the big data makes for a lot of very interesting results.



MWJB said:


> I've posted a chart of grind sizes & recipes on my google page. I wouldn't try and print it...seems to be 1200 odd pages, a symptom of being imported from an old XL.
> 
> [...]
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1p-SFk1gUI_KtBNcdvdGjcptQeRhZZNwHq6RlKfVtbAI/edit?usp=sharing


 If anyone do wish to print, the number of printed pages is a result of extra rows in the document that are also formatted (fill or borders). If you make a copy on your own drive, delete all empty rows and choose "Fit to width" on Scale in the printing options, you should have it fit on one page.

The problem comes from the columns with formatting, which is applied to all new rows you add. You can solve it in your original document by selecting all rows without data (mark the first empy row, hold Ctrl+Shift and press Arrow Down), then click Format in the top menu and choose Clear formatting. When this is done, any new rows you add won't have the formatting and the sheet will print on one or two pages, depending on paper size and scaling.


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## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

@Zephyp show us the data viz!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Clever dripper, fine grind, 20min steep added (recommend brewing bigger brews for 30min minimum, for better heat retention & higher extraction at similar grind).


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Going with a grinder with a fairly even distribution (i.e. EK43S), I find the most interesting drip brews at the coarser end of the spectrum. For example, at setting #9 I still have only 13% <400 and 4%>1200 - but this tends to create unbalanced, rather bitter brews that are hard to get right. By far I prefer brews at #13.5, which is only 7% <400, but still only 4-5% >1600. This is using Kalita 185 and 20/330g.

So I'd say, rather the coarseness is a limiting factor rather than the fines (i.e. try to go coarse as possible, without having too many large particles not contributing) for the best tasting brews.


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MWJB said:


> Clever dripper, fine grind, 20min steep added (recommend brewing bigger brews for 30min minimum, for better heat retention & higher extraction at similar grind).


 The challenge with brewing for even 10 mins (let alone 15-20) is, I find the coffee is no longer hot to drink. 🙂

Do I reheat and drink after brewing for 20 mins? I always have this question on the back of my mind, when I think of longer brew time. 😃


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> The challenge with brewing for even 10 mins (let alone 15-20) is, I find the coffee is no longer hot to drink. 🙂
> 
> Do I reheat and drink after brewing for 20 mins? I always have this question on the back of my mind, when I think of longer brew time. 😃


 I like my coffee best around 50-55c (nobody should really be drinking anything over 60c, but I appreciate some folk like a hot 'hot drink'.), so there's no need to reheat it after 20min steep in a Clever Dripper, just pre-heat the cup. I don't reheat coffee.

A brew made with 200-300g of water right off the boil should be good for 20min covered (my 300g French press brews measured 70c after 30min, which is too hot for me to drink at all). As you go bigger, brews retain heat better, so an 800g brew in a French press is usually still good after 40-50min, insulated press up to 90min easily.

I've just had a fruit tea that I brewed, with about 170g water, in the cup for 40min, with a glass cover...probably a bit under what I usually like for coffee, but to get the flavour I want, that's what it takes. It takes ~35minutes for the water from a boiled kettle to hit 55c in an uncovered 300ml mug.

If the temperature is most important to you, stop the brew at a time that it's still warm enough to enjoy. Or, make a drip brew.


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MWJB said:


> temperature is most important to you, stop the brew at a time that it's still warm enough to enjoy. Or, make a drip brew.


 Thank you for sharing the insight. I will continue to experiment to maximise the flavour, taste and temperature.


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MWJB said:


> fruit tea


 Where do you buy this from, if you don't mind sharing please ? We are looking for an online tea supplier.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Where do you buy this from, if you don't mind sharing please ? We are looking for an online tea supplier.


 This particular one was Pukka 'Blackcurrant Beauty', I do the same with the Pukka 'Lemon, Ginger & Manuka' (available from most supermarkets). We Are Tea 'Super Berry' (direct from them last time) brews fine in a few minutes.


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## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Where do you buy this from, if you don't mind sharing please ? We are looking for an online tea supplier.


 If you're after loose I bought from The Gilded Teapot last month. Very nice.


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## Zephyp (Mar 1, 2017)

the_partisan said:


> Going with a grinder with a fairly even distribution (i.e. EK43S), I find the most interesting drip brews at the coarser end of the spectrum. For example, at setting #9 I still have only 13% <400 and 4%>1200 - but this tends to create unbalanced, rather bitter brews that are hard to get right. By far I prefer brews at #13.5, which is only 7% <400, but still only 4-5% >1600. This is using Kalita 185 and 20/330g.
> 
> So I'd say, rather the coarseness is a limiting factor rather than the fines (i.e. try to go coarse as possible, without having too many large particles not contributing) for the best tasting brews.


 That's interesting. I think I've more often read or heard people say they want to go as fine as the grinder lets them. Personally, I've probably found better brews towards coarser rather than finer. Do you adjust the technique to get a long enough brew time to allow for a coarser grind?

I think I'll have to pull out the Kruve again and do some shaking.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Hario V60 02, 18g to 270g brew water, conical hand grinder, added. See tab "Drip 241g+ BW".


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Zephyp said:


> That's interesting. I think I've more often read or heard people say they want to go as fine as the grinder lets them. Personally, I've probably found better brews towards coarser rather than finer. Do you adjust the technique to get a long enough brew time to allow for a coarser grind?
> 
> I think I'll have to pull out the Kruve again and do some shaking.


 Not particularly, but I always pour in stages, typically 3 or 4 depending on the volume of the brew. Coarser grinds in general give you much more consistent flow rate, and tend to be much more forgiving.


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## manzyuk (Feb 8, 2021)

@MWJB Thanks for sharing the spreadsheet, Mark, bookmarked!

I've noticed that among the 1-mug V60 recipes the recipe with the highest average score (8.00) is the one with 33g pulses every 20s and two last pours down middle. Do you have a hunch why that might be the case?

I've had good results (average score of 7.47) with your other 1-mug recipe with 35g pulses ever 20s, all spirals. (I typically use 14.5g to 240ml of water, 30g bloom for 30s, but sometimes drop the dose down to 14g.) I felt a bit adventurous, so I tried 14g to 233ml, 33g bloom for 30s, then 33g pours every 20s, with two last pours down middle. I brewed two cups to taste side by side, one with the same grind setting as for my default recipe, and one with a substantially finer grind. Both brews took almost identical amount of time (2:50-2:55), noticeably faster than the other recipe. I liked both and would be pressed to pick one I liked better than the other (and ended up glugging two cups of coffee, late in the afternoon, oh well).

I'm keen to play more with this recipe, and I wanted to ask you: How long does each pour take? Is it around 10s, like for the other recipe, with 35g pulses? Do you slow down for the last two pours? With my brews, the one at the coarser setting had a barely noticeable divot in the centre of the coffee bed at the end of the brew, and the one at the finer setting had a fairly deep hole, with clear edges. I'm wondering if I poured two aggressively in the latter case (it did take the same amount of time as all other pours, about 10s). I haven't found this to adversely affect the taste though. (I thought of channelling and expected some sourness but in fact there was more pronounced acidity in the other cup, brewed at the coarser grind.)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

manzyuk said:


> I've noticed that among the 1-mug V60 recipes the recipe with the highest average score (8.00) is the one with 33g pulses every 20s and two last pours down middle. Do you have a hunch why that might be the case?


 Maybe the coffees I used with the 33g pours were better than those I used with the 35g pours. Note, I don't cherry pick coffees when doing these iterations...I brew what I get & live with it even if I know I've got a clunker bean in the set. It might look nerdy/scientific, but I try to keep it real world.

Notice that the 33g pours with Lido 1 were average score of 7.46. When you look at the stdev in scores they essentially overlap & aren't different enough to warrant much further thought.

For bloom & 6 pours V60 as of now, with a mix of grinders & pulse weights of 30-35g, I have an average score of 7.65/9, or 85%. Whilst this is purely my subjective scores, I wouldn't start changing things up unless my average was more like 80% (7.2), or less. So maybe round up an acceptable score to be 84% +/-4% over 10 coffees? As you brew more & more cups the average will drop a little from what seems a very good score...it's just the law of average at work 

I'd personally always go with 233g, over 240g just because I like the repeating progression over each 100g...no technical reason. You could use 14-15.5g with this amount of water, depending on strength preference (stick to one dose for a few brews).

Yes, all the spiral pours take ~10s, whether 33 or 35g. The last 2 (or any that are) all down the middle take a bit longer, because it's easier to pour spirals quicker...a straight down stream from the kettle spout in 1 spot seems to take a little longer, maybe 15s or a tad more.

If it didn't adversely affect taste, it doesn't matter  The coarser grinds seem to take longer to become water logged so seem more mobile during pouring, finer grinds as you say, may have a 1cm deep sink hole/well. That's fine, if it tastes fine. I don't have any evidence that flatness of bed ensures anything (if scores are good, regime is consistent, EY averages in the ball park).

Coarser grinds will make flatter beds without any intervention, with multiple pulses. You will also get less silt in the cup, so acidity will be less compromised by flatter, drier flavours...brew at the coarsest grind that holds a good score & meets your preference for acidity.

Really it's a quantitative game, you're looking for trends over big numbers of brews, not so much sniping...simply because one bad purchase can bring you back to Earth with a bump, then you can start questioning, changing things around & end up chasing your tail - when all along it was just 1 bad bean that threw you off the path. I use a few different grinders & brewers, so inevitably I might have limited numbers of brews with a particular brewer, grinder & pour regime (my score for all gooseneck poured pour overs with all brewers & all grinders 13-14g dose stands at 7.57/9 over 589 brews).

Thanks for your interest


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Colio07 said:


> Thanks @tompoland I actually went ahead and bought one (DE1PRO) and I love it! I have also kept my Londinium, for now, but I'm only using the Decent these days. Here's a photo of my setup.


 Same here. Have an L1 and Vesuvius and only switch on the DE1 Pro now


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Aeropress 20g dose:125g brew water, coarse, short steep. Bright, strong moka type brew now added...

20g ground at on 32 Wilfa flat (8% under 400Kruve, 15% over 1600Kruve). Add coffee to inverted (or Prismo equipped) AP.

125g +/-5g water added straight off boil, 2x North/South/East West stirs.

Flip inverted press at 1:15, or sink crust on Prismo equipped Aeropress.

Plunge gently at 1:30 for ~20s, stop when you see dry bed. ~75g to 80g of beverage at 2.6% to 3.1%TDS (syringe filtered).


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## manzyuk (Feb 8, 2021)

@MWJB Mark, this is a "thank you" post 

I've found nirvana with one of the recipes from your reference spreadsheet, namely the one for larger brews (8 pours 33g each every 30s). If anyone is interested, I've converged to 29 clicks on Comandante. I also stick to a more standard brew ratio of 60g/l, brewing 16g/267ml (18g/270ml brews are too strong to my taste). I really like the simplicity of this method: no rinsing paper filter, no stirring bloom, no spinning the brewer. It's all stripped down to the bare essentials: pouring water on ground coffee slowly. (By the way, I prefer slower pouring because I seem to be more able to execute it consistently. 33g every 30s with each pour taking ~15s require less concentration than say 35g every 20s with each pour taking ~10s. I can actually relax and maintain a conversation with the former  )

Tracking liking scores has also taught me that there are coffees that I like better than others (duh). Previously, when I wasn't happy with a cup, I attributed that to my technique or recipe and felt an urge to change something. Now when I'm not happy with some coffee I'm more confident that it's the coffee (beans) that's the culprit rather than the recipe, for which I have ample evidence that it can produce very good cups. I've also started noticing certain trends and correlations between liking scores and origins (e.g., I've consistently scored Rwandan coffees low since the time I started tracking scores). Overall, this quantitative approach has been transformative and has taken a fair bit of anxiety out of brewing, for which I'm grateful.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

.


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## manzyuk (Feb 8, 2021)

I've recently started brewing smaller cups and been experimenting with the pouring regime of 20g every 20s. I find it very intuitive and quite easy to execute, but I was surprised how much coarser compared to the 33g every 30s recipe I could grind while still getting a tasty cup. I'm at the moment at 40 clicks on Comandante, which I know doesn't say much, but it seems ridiculously coarse. I've never seen 40 clicks recommended for any brewing method, not even Chemex or batch brewer, yet I'm getting very clean and flavoursome cups.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Hario V60 02 with steel can strainer, 13.6:200g added...

(EDIT: Grind setting Wilfa flat 32 = 22% at 600um, 15% over 1180um with ASTM/ISO sieve.)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Hario V60 02 with steel can strainer, 13.8g:200g added, Niche Zero at 94.0 with NFC disk installed.




  








V60 02 Can strainer.PNG




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MWJB


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9 mo ago


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