# Coffee: Do Italians do it better?



## risky (May 11, 2015)

Interesting article from BBC with comments from Square Mile and Prufrock

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33527053


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

I will find out on my honeymoon Oct/Nov of this year. My expectations are not high though.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

The answer is "No" by the way, if there is any confusion about that.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

risky said:


> Interesting article from BBC with comments from Square Mile and Prufrock
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33527053


"many top baristas also turn their noses up at what's served in branded coffee chains."

'Most' or 'all' would be more accurate than 'many'...


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

They do it better than most places serving coffee in the UK, in my opinion, but it is pretty homogenised. It won't wow you, but equally you are unlikely to have a bad one, unlike in the UK.


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## Taff (May 5, 2015)

Better? No. Different.. yes. Would be boring if all the wine in the world was the same too.


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

Australia as a country is the best ive ever visited for general standard of coffee


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## PeterL (Aug 5, 2015)

Fevmeister said:


> Australia as a country is the best ive ever visited for general standard of coffee


With the Italian immigration in the 1920's and onwards Sydney and Melbourne understood espresso far earlier than the UK.

So much so that Starbucks launched then failed in Melbourne, they closed up.

Moving here in 2002 was a desperate state of affairs as you could get a better coffee in a service station in Melbourne than any high street chain in the UK and still can.

The running joke / theme is that the Italian cafe's in Melbourne have to re-train the baristas coming from Italy, they are used to working with staler beans and cheaper blends.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Interesting that you mention the Italians using stale coffee. Someone once told me that espresso was invented as a way of making a passable drink from stale coffee. Not sure if it's remotely true or not.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Most of the stuff I tasted in Italy was rank.

I had one technically 'great' cappuccino but you could tell the beans were burned.

Tonne of sugar , neck, go and drink some amazing wine.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

All the signs are telling me not to bother next weekend in Venice, but i know i will have to.....


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## Lefteye (Dec 30, 2014)

I'm in sardinia at the moment. Better? No. Cheap yep. Coffee I've had has been relatively burnt from over roasting but at 70p a shot I'm not surprised. Glad I brought over some of lees beans for the trip. Finished this morning after being sparing with them. Made a mokka with the coffee here couldn't even finish a cup. Even my wife said as much so in a way possibly a good thing to persuade her into part funding!! Great lever machines though.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

In the South it seems to be Segafredo everywhere. So pretty much tastes the same where ever you go, apart from the amount of sugar they dump in it without asking you.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Italian Specialty Coffee here: http://www.giggigelateria.co.uk/specialty-coffee.html all made with Illy.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

jonc said:


> Italian Specialty Coffee here: http://www.giggigelateria.co.uk/specialty-coffee.html all made with Illy.


Not sure it matters when served like this - I wouldn't mind trying some of the stuff though, obviously just to poor my speciality grade of scorn on it.

A Marrakech: A rich double espresso and cinnamon syrup, topped with frothed milk and a cinnamon dusting to create a taste of North Africa!


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

It was the term 'specialty coffee' that amused me initially - but more amusing than that was the imagined reaction of some on here!

Such fun.


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## Lord Fluff (Jul 27, 2015)

Spazbarista said:


> They do it better than most places serving coffee in the UK, in my opinion, but it is pretty homogenised. It won't wow you, but equally you are unlikely to have a bad one, unlike in the UK.


This. On a recent trip I had many macciatos and not a single bad one. There's nowhere in Britain where you could hit that average, Soho included.


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## jonathanhook (Apr 25, 2015)

Lefteye said:


> I'm in sardinia at the moment. Better? No. Cheap yep. Coffee I've had has been relatively burnt from over roasting but at 70p a shot I'm not surprised. Glad I brought over some of lees beans for the trip. Finished this morning after being sparing with them. Made a mokka with the coffee here couldn't even finish a cup. Even my wife said as much so in a way possibly a good thing to persuade her into part funding!! Great lever machines though.


I had a decent (unexpected!) espresso in the departure lounge in Alghero airport, in case you are passing through there on your way back.


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

Lefteye said:


> I'm in sardinia at the moment. Better? No. Cheap yep. Coffee I've had has been relatively burnt from over roasting but at 70p a shot I'm not surprised.


YUP I agree with above

am in Turin right now...

all espressos I've had have been too 'bitter' or burnt, either from stale beans or from stale and BURNT beans, one was so bad (in a restaurant) I had to leave it and wash my mouth with loads of water.

NOT one coffee shop (bar) uses fresh beans here, only tinned stuff from factory, be it Illy, Lavazza, Costadoro, segafredo, Kimbo, they are all old beans (well you know, certainly over a couple of months old!).

They also make espresso with the standard 7gr shot and I am used to my 18gr at home....

Monmouth coffee in London is far better than any of the bars here in Italy.

Incidentally i am half italian and my brother who still lives here is currently in London on holiday and he texted me to tell me Monmouth coffee is sublime compared to what he has here....


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Is Lavazza really Italy's favourite coffee?


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## Lefteye (Dec 30, 2014)

I found it a shame that all the grinders had huge tins of beans on them. The places are hot in summer those beans must sweat!


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

My friend Flavio, he started the coffee journey for me and I love him dearly , he like his coffee Italian style , I tried to be kind but I'm afraid my comments were ' the caramel sweet taste isn't the coffee, it's the sugar I am tasting, and you are adding the sugar to take away the bitterness'.

There passion and lifestyle for coffee with presentation and ceremony of coffee I really like but the contents of the cup (where it counts ) is not for me


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## goodq (Oct 10, 2011)

Every time I visit Italy I go there in the hopes that I would find a good cafe, and every time I come back bitterly disappointed. I always said that it must be because I was going to rural areas and it will be better when I go to a bigger city like Milan but even then it was rubbish. This is ITALY!, it is supposed to be good everywhere!. Finally after many trips to various places around Italy I gave up. The feeling I got was synonymous to that of meeting your idol/hero, the person that made you start your journey, and then find out that in fact he was a fluke and a jerk!

Also it wasn't like I was just asking locals for recommendations! I literally scoured the internet and forums and still couldn't find something to rival what London has to offer.

I won't say all but most of the places I went:


The coffee wasn't pouring correctly, it was always gushing out of the spouts

The doser chamber was always full of coffee

No tamper simply the one that is with the grinder


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Will find out bloody soon enough off to Rome on Friday, not had a decent coffee for a week since we packed our stuff to move home, mokka pot just not the same as the Isomac

At least I hope I get some.


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

I went to Italy back in May and I must say I my experience was one of disappointment. I had one or two cappuccinos that were really quite poor, certainly not as good as a "decent" flat white from Costa's. Also sampled several espressos in Lucca, Naples and elsewhere. They were fine but clearly the coffee was cheap and on the stale side.


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## Nimble Motionists (Oct 22, 2012)

Went to Venice and Rome last year and had lots of 'better than Starbucks' (talk about damning with faint praise)

Currently in Chianti - have had a lot of illy but one place with genuinely good espresso (still very dark but not bitter - sweet even!)


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## YerbaMate170 (Jun 15, 2015)

Are there any speciality coffee places in Italy? I mean, there must be... But I wonder how Italians would find it; I recently introduced my dad to "good" coffee, after years of thinking Illy etc was decent, and he's very impressed. Albeit preferring "traditional" nutty/chocolately flavours as opposed to fruity/acidic - having a tough time getting away from Brazil and Colombia; Ethiopian filter went down... Not well.


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## hartshay (Feb 28, 2015)

I have been to a few good ones and many average ones in Italy. I like visiting the local roasters where the real measures are.... just take a travel kettle and an aeropress on your trip...


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## Ant (Jul 20, 2015)

Just back from 2 weeks in Southern Italy (Calabria region). I drank shed loads of espresso from several places. My honest opinion is that it's great. Okay so you won't get artisan roasts, super clean machines, weighing in and out or any of that fancy stuff, but...what you do get is consistency and value for money. Everywhere I went it was a hot (my guess 96/97 deg C), dark, thick crema, tasty 7g shot for just 1 Euro (sometimes served with a glass of fizzy water for cleaning the palate pre-coffee). I drank at Naples Airport, motorway service stations, hotels, restaurants and little street bars. I just love their coffee culture and the fact that you can get a decent coffee anywhere (as long as you're not into milky drinks heh heh!). A lot of places were using arabica/robusta blends by Kimbo.


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## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

Just returned from two weeks in Maiori on the Amalfi Coast and didn't find a nice coffee anywhere so made my own ;^) And still crap !

Lovely people though.


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

The answer is "yes" the Italians do it far better. On holiday in Cinque terra as I write. I've had nothing but very balanced, drinkable espresso since arriving. I never drink espresso in London, I've had to many foul variations to risk it again, even from trendy new wave places. I love the Italians lack of fuss, basic machines, no double boilers, conical grinders, or under roasted bean, just a better understanding of what espresso should be.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

@coffeechap any opinions on the Italians


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Interesting to see a few folk saying it's really nice but what seems to be the vast majority saying it's crap? Shows how different people's palates can be.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Jesus, I cant believe some folk actually think the Italians do it better, each month when I return I have my morning latte, I have to have the espresso in milk as otherwise it is bitter and undrinkable. I took over some lovely SO beans a few months back and pulled some shots on a San Marco three group lever with a la cimbali grinder, the Italians just did not get it, said it was too sweet!! Some of the other locals enjoyed it though as did the guy who runs the shop and as much as he enjoyed it, he said there would never be the market for that type of espresso in Italy.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Now that is funny.

So, Italians don't do it better, they just like to believe they do.


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> Jesus, I cant believe some folk actually think the Italians do it better, each month when I return I have my morning latte, I have to have the espresso in milk as otherwise it is bitter and undrinkable. I took over some lovely SO brand a few months back and pulled some shots on a San Marco three group lever with a la cimbali grinder, the Italians just did not get it, said it was too sweet!! Some of the other locals enjoyed it though as did the guy who runs the shop and as much as he enjoyed it, he said there would never be the market for that type of espresso in Italy.[/QUOT
> 
> To imply that the average British coffee bar serves better espresso than the average Italian equivalent is utter and complete rubbish.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

I didn't read it that way at all Nick, he just said that they didn't get/appreciate the beans he took and didn't go for sweetness in espresso and had totally different tastes/expectations in the cup

Chill out


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## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

Err....

Enjoy what you enjoy, but because you enjoy it, don't presume it is better.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

NickR said:


> coffeechap said:
> 
> 
> > To imply that the average British coffee bar serves better espresso than the average Italian equivalent is utter and complete rubbish.
> ...


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Btw I will say the average British coffee bar does indeed serve (on the whole) complete unadulterated shyte


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

In my limited experience of Italian espresso I would say that it is consistently average and boringly predictable so is therefore much, much better than the average around my little corner of the UK... but, the best UK places understand coffee in a way that the Italians just don't because of their tradition, or pricing structures, or roasting techniques or whatever other reason's might be the cause. So which is better, consistently bland espresso or usually pathetic and occasionally very good espresso? I'd have to say, in an area or country I didn't know I'd take the former but others I'm sure will feel different.

Part of the problem in these debates is that when we ( the weird coffee nutter's ) think of a coffee shop we often think of a progressive, enlightened coffee emporium but for every one of them how many cafes are there with dirty old machines and stale coffee churning out an 8 second gusher without any understanding at all that isn't what it's all about? In my area I'd say the ratio is probably 30:1.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

CamV6 said:


> Btw I will say the average British coffee bar does indeed serve (on the whole) complete unadulterated shyte


Same in Spain.

This is what I was served in Spain as a liquor coffee. It was like being given a pint of Guinness.

I'm sure half of it was brandy!


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

I don't want to sound controversial, I've never been so don't know, but isn't Australia widely regarded as the place to go for consistently good coffee of all kind's in this century? I thought Italian coffee had just gone the same way as Scottish whisky ie, one time standard bearer's with massive tradition who have slowly been overtaken by more progressive countries. In the case of whisky, Japan.


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## frandavi99 (Jun 8, 2014)

I've spent a bit of time in Australia and it is where I learned to love the sort of quality coffee that leads you to forums like this. But the average cafe still serves shite. I'd say they are in a similar place to the UK, maybe a touch better because Starbucks and Costa have never gained a foothold there.


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Sounds to me like comparing apples and oranges.

Two countries, two completely different tastes in coffee.

Trying to say which one is "best" is subjectively biased and therefore pretty pointless.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Didn't try any coffee in Venice apart from yesterday morning n the hotel with breakfast, why? Well they had a lovely looking faema E61 paired with a mazzer, asked for a long black and got an espresso, nice and strong and no sourness but hell you could taste the beans were dark, very dark.... Was tempted to ask if I could pull a shot but think Mrs froggy would have had words!

From my very limited two cups, I would imagine most Italians like a dark shot, not really looking for those flavours we dark lovers seek in the cup.

Each to their own though I say.


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## YerbaMate170 (Jun 15, 2015)

I understand the subjectivity argument, but the issue I have is that there seem to be some things which are surely, universally accepted as being contributors to better coffee, that Italians seem to ignore... For example, freshness. I find it baffling that companies like Illy are able to survive; surely there are enough roasters in Italy for fresh coffee to be widely available? I mean, you can't get Pizza Hut in Italy for good reason... So why does unfresh, pre-packed coffee survive?


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