# Help with dosing - Dual boiler - Niche zero



## Adrianmsmith (Dec 30, 2018)

Hi, help please for a newbie.

This dosing thing is driving me crazy

I have read a lot but end up more confused....

I read 18 to 20g is great for a dual boiler with standard portafilter and basket.

If grind around 22g its still way low according to the razor tool, but im getting 40-45g out in around 30 seconds total including pre-infusion.

What i dont understand is how people are suggesting 18g as that would be 6mm low at least according to the razor.

If I grind coarser with 21-22g i can get the height right but the shot takes 15-20 seconds total.

to get a consistent 30 seconds with 22g at 9 bar its 3-4mm low according to razor.

So i read about vst 20g basket. Bought it along with a TORR titanium 58.55 tamper. Very smooth finish with this new tamper. Great i though at least thats telling me what to use :-( well if i put 20g in that (its deeper than the stock sage basket) again i am way low with the razor. 22g is about right.

So what am i misunderstanding PLEASE?!

How do i proceed. What is actually important, 20g or height? I assume im correct aiming for 45 odd g out in 30 seconds but getting the ammount of beans and grind size to keep to those parameters seems impossible. Im assuming im just missing the point of something. Hope someone can point out my errors









Im using fresh non-supermarket beans. (rave / 200 degrees Nottingham) switched from sage smart grinder pro a month ago to niche zero grinder. Grind setting around 16.

Oh and if it helps Im only trying to make latte and americano mugs.

please help.

thanks


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Pretty sure the shower plate is higher on a Sage DB than on an E61 group. While a VST basket will fit, it'll have a higher capacity than indicated if using the razor.

Think @ajohn has used several different capacity baskets in his DB so may be better able to advise.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Forget the razor

Use the vst 20g and dose no more than 21 g

I have a Sage/Niche and am using vst baskets. Coffee needs head room to expand.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> *Forget the razor *
> 
> Use the vst 20g and dose no more than 21 g
> 
> I have a Sage/Niche and am using vst baskets. Coffee needs head room to expand.


*Forget the razor + 1 for this. *I generally use about .5g less than the stated basket size with 18g VST in a Sage DB. If you put less dose in (.e.g 20g instead of 21 or 22) then you may need to grind a little finer.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The razor can help and that's about it. Various weights can be used what ever basket is used. Big problem though while the razor tool works well on the BE and probably the DTP it's completely and utterly crap on the DB. It drove me nuts when I started using the DB. In fact if some one like me wants decent used pucks that come out cleanly and make max use of the grinds it can take a while to sort out how much to put in a basket especially to completely avoid pucks sticking to the shower screen.

Niche has also changed the grinds weight I use. They are now lower than they were. I generally use a Fracino 12g in mine. 14g easily with other grinders and dropping to 13.5g made a surprising difference suggesting that with Niche grinds I was over filling a bit. This is with a bean that is very light compared with others. 14g might turn out to be over 15g with other beans.

I'll check this again on my next shot but I'd be inclined to say that a decent fill level is maybe 1mm under what the razor tool would leave. It's easier to tell if fill levels are too low on some machines as a film or more of water will be left on the puck. They tend to look ok on the DB even when problematically too low.







That really drove me nuts when I started using it as taste can change as well.

I suspect that Fracino use a higher fill height than others as well. I do have a couple of IMS baskets. One should be capable of working at 14g, it's deeper than the DB's own double. The standard genuine Fracino 12g is a decent equivalent to VST's 15g on a DB and has the associated problems - large perforation area and shallow. Next step for me is their double followed by the sage double if needed. Depends on the strength of the bean.

Really a beginner should forget ultra expensive baskets and stick with the Sage ones until they are up and running and will have more idea why some change in basket isn't having the desired effect,. Surprisingly they are good baskets and the mentioned 18g will probably be fine in the double, A chisel type levelling tool is probably a much better investment than a large diameter tamper. It helps get tamping right. Some say tamp with it but I find it's better to use it to pre tamp leaving a mm or so for a tamper to do. I also keep my forearm fairly vertical as it helps apply sufficient pressure and keep it level.







I was watching a barista some months ago and thought I'm an idiot why didn't I do it that way.. Actually I use a calibrated tamper as well. Standard 58mm one. Chisel tool is bit under 58mm so run it round pressed against the side. Also do the same with the tamper when I polish the puck - at some point I will switch that to 58.5mm.

Niche is easier to adjust than some but not particularly fine. My last adjustment to trim 43g out to circa 37 was just about the width of the indicating dot. I'm working around a setting of 9 though so more touchy than higher numbers for other beans. I find I get a bit more variation in output via my fixed 30sec shot than I did with my previous grinder.

My aim is a little different to many others. I wont weigh out on the fly using the machine manually. My aim is to get the same out every time. Currently on Niche I can get 10% variation in shot weight in a fixed time and hope to do better. The burrs wont be run in for several months so things may improve of their own accord.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> .
> 
> My aim is a little different to many others. I wont weigh out on the fly using the machine manually. My aim is to get the same out every time.
> 
> -


Not sure what this means or how helpful it is .

TO the OP you have a vst basket, use it.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Not sure what this means or how helpful it is .
> 
> TO the OP you have a vst basket, use it.


He has a machine with buttons and may want to use and program them. Unlike some others.

From the OP's comments the VST is not suitable for use with 18g in it on a DB. I could go to VST's site and look at the height of the 20g basket but from his comments it's obviously seriously larger than the Sage double which is suitable for use with that order of weight in it.

So perhaps you could tell him how much to put into it or how to go about establishing that. That post would be useful.

John

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## Adrianmsmith (Dec 30, 2018)

Hi, thanks for all the useful comments.

Will try the 21g shot for a while and throw the razor









wasnt sure how important it was to go with the razor anyway.

may go back to the sage basket for a while and see if i can get consistency there first.

i do like the titanium tamper so will be sticking with that for the foreseeable future.

Ade


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