# New beans blonding fast, not sure where i'm going wrong?



## Steevviieee (Aug 3, 2012)

Hey guys









I've been using happy donkey Italian for a month or so now, been getting pretty good results that I am happy with and gained a good understanding of dosing, grinding and tastes etc (at least I thought I have). However I decided to try a slightly lighter blend and found Rave's Fudge blend, sounds like the flavours i'm preferring at the moment and I mostly drink flat whites or similar so sounded perfect.

I'm using a consistent technique with my shots as I was with the happy donkey beans but i'm finding the new beans to stream out alot slower and blonde very early (Within 15 seconds or so) I'm using a Gaggia classic which i'm ensuring is fully warmed up (to the best of my ability without the PID upgrade) and a Iberital MC2, im warming up the grouphead with the portafilter in and ensuring i'm pulling the shots and the start of the heating cycle (the light coming on). With the happy donkey beans I was dosing 18g and getting 36g out in about 25 seconds and thick crema and a taste I'm relatively happy with (potentially a bit on the dark side, hence the new beans). With the new Rave beans they recommend 20g in and 42g out in 25-30 seconds so I've tried this dosing but the shot is coming out very slowly and blonding fast, i've tried dosing slightly less/more and grinding finer/coarser but not really getting anywhere. I've not really tried going too far out on the grind from where I am as grinding finer would only make it come out slower and grinding coarser seems counter intuitive to the early blonding so I've only been making fairly small adjustments. Any suggestions as to what might be going wrong? I'm really keen to give these beans a go as they smell absolutely fantastic! And just to clarify, the beans were roasted on 07/02/17 and I opened them today, I waited a little as Rave recommend so many days after the roast before using.

Sorry for the wall of text but hope I've covered everything

Steve


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Are you unhappy with the taste? Blonding is just an indicator that something might be wrong but it's not a problem in and of itself.

Just FYI Rave have exactly the same 'recipe' on every bean, its like they once intended to have a useful suggestion of where to start extracting from but abandoned the idea.

Edit: also, what is the size of your basket? You should never over fill as it will cause a bad extraction. You can test the level in the basket by placing a penny on a dry tamped puck, lock it into the group and remove it again. If the penny has done anything more than graze the surface then you have too much coffee in your basket.


----------



## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

You are most likely getting channeling from having too fine a grind allowing the brew water to find the weak spot in your puck and flowing through leading to the bonding you perceive. Grind a touch coarser, purge the old grounds to ensure you are on the correct setting and try. Dose should only really be changed when in relation to final beverage volume. Less espresso-> smaller dose, more espresso -> larger dose. The recipe/ratio stays the same as does approximate time do you adjust your grind accordingly. You are however confined by the basket size. If your basket is meant to take 18g do not try and fit 20g in just based on the roaster's recommendation. Lock your dose at say 18g and try different yields 34g, 36g, 40g out in ball park 25-30 sec and see how it tastes. And remember only to make incremental changes on your grinder otherwise you'll go through the bag before you know it. Good luck, I'm sure you'll be enjoying it in no time!


----------



## Robbo (Feb 17, 2016)

As above, taste is key. plus try resting a little longer. There is such a thing as too fresh. It fizzes up too much in the basket if used too early and causes bad extraction.

Some beans can get away with 4 days rest, some up to 2 weeks!


----------



## Steevviieee (Aug 3, 2012)

Thank you for the fantastic replies. I believe I may be over filling the basket and potentially grinding too fine, as I can see a mark in the puck from the shower screen screw. I never noticed this in the happy donkey beans but I found 18g in this new bean to seem a physically higher volume for a similar weight (is that even possible?) As for the taste I feel like there's a nice flavour underneath but generally overpowered by an almost sour taste and the main flavours im looking for are watery.

Shame about the 20g in 42g out being on all the beans! I'll revert back to 18g (as thats what I've been using before) and grind coarser and see what happens, don't want to run out of this first bag before I get something decent! Thanks again


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Steevviieee said:


> Thank you for the fantastic replies. I believe I may be over filling the basket and potentially grinding too fine, as I can see a mark in the puck from the shower screen screw. I never noticed this in the happy donkey beans but I found 18g in this new bean to seem a physically higher volume for a similar weight (is that even possible?) As for the taste I feel like there's a nice flavour underneath but generally overpowered by an almost sour taste and the main flavours im looking for are watery.
> 
> Shame about the 20g in 42g out being on all the beans! I'll revert back to 18g (as thats what I've been using before) and grind coarser and see what happens, don't want to run out of this first bag before I get something decent! Thanks again


Hi,

I once found myself in the same situation when I removed the anti-static grid from my grinder. It seemed to be OK for some darker beans, but in essence the shot would start nice and blond after 15 seconds or so, however I would hit the usual target of 18g in, 36g out in 30s.

Are you single dosing by any chance? If you are try to use the grinder as intended and see if it improves. Also, it's worth noting that some beans are more fussy than others, so try paying more attention to distribution - unsure if you are doing that already - by using some WDT (stirring the grinds a little in the PF), level and tamp.

Hope that helps and good luck with the diagnostics.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Set a brew ratio - ignore blonding as a shot indicator . Adjust the ratio or grind based on results in the cup .

Trying to hit a brew ratio and a time and blonding , IMHO is counter productive in the search for tasty.

Blonding is just too dependent on origin, roast level, grinder etc for me to ever find a useful indicator, and as a measure across a number of people it's just too subjective as to where it occurs .


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Steevviieee said:


> Thank you for the fantastic replies. I believe I may be over filling the basket and potentially grinding too fine, as I can see a mark in the puck from the shower screen screw. I never noticed this in the happy donkey beans but I found 18g in this new bean to seem a physically higher volume for a similar weight (is that even possible?) As for the taste I feel like there's a nice flavour underneath but generally overpowered by an almost sour taste and the main flavours im looking for are watery.
> 
> Shame about the 20g in 42g out being on all the beans! I'll revert back to 18g (as thats what I've been using before) and grind coarser and see what happens, don't want to run out of this first bag before I get something decent! Thanks again


Note that the puck expands during a brew and an indentation after you have extracted is not really anything to worry about. Tamp your puck, lock in you PF and then remove straight away, if there is an indentation of the shower screen in the dry puck then this is a problem.

And yea, different coffees will tamp to different volumes despite being the exact same weight.


----------



## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

I'd be querying if it's actually "blonding" or the result of a fresh bean looking foamy on pulling, happens here if beans are a bit too fresh.

Like everyone says, it's how it tastes that matters.

When were the beans roasted, how does it taste (after cooling/ stirring too, not just a slurp of the crema!)


----------



## Steevviieee (Aug 3, 2012)

I dont THINK the beans are over fresh, when I first used my happy donkey ones they were a bit fresh and the shot come out really think and foamy. These rave beans are coking out very slowly indeed with a thin stream, and it's taking a good 8 seconds from when I turn the pump on to the shot pouring.

Do you think it's just too fine and causing channeling? In theory that makes a bit of sense but I'm stuck at work and can't get to my machine to test !


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

A bottomless portafilter will help you know if there is channeling, but honestly dont worry about it until you have eliminated other variables. Weigh in 18g, test the depth of the puck with a penny if you think it could be too full, then adjust the grind coarser or finer until you get about 36g (I often pull 28-30g from 18, just a preference) in about 35-30 seconds.

8 seconds for the first drops is about right.

Rave beans can need a good couple of weeks to be at their best, it is possible they are still a bit gassy.


----------



## Steevviieee (Aug 3, 2012)

I'll give the penny thing that you suggested a go tonight and see whats going on, like I said I'm sure these beans seem to be higher in volume for the same weight. I'm not entirely sure what size the basket is, it's a standard gaggia one so I'm assuming it's probably a double and not a triple. Thanks for the help


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Double baskets vary a lot in size, I think the Gaggia standard basket is meant to be 18g but I'm not totally sure. But regardless, if 18g doesn't fit properly in an 18g basket then down dose, 'precision' baskets like VST and IMS label themselves as 17-19g or 16-20g rather than a specific figure.


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Gaggia standard is 14-16g


----------



## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

I'd not worry about an indent from a shower screen screw after extraction as the grinds will have expanded with the water during. If you're seeing an indent in the dry grounds then you're most likely overdosing slightly. Rule of thumb for me is that if you can lock in the PF as far as possible with dry grounds then take it out and JUST see the start of an indent then you're in the ballpark of the right dose for your basket.


----------



## Steevviieee (Aug 3, 2012)

Hey, so I tester the basket size with a penny and with 18g rave in it left a bit of an indentation but nothing crazy deep. I ground coarser to see if that helped and I have to admit I got a better tasting espresso but still blonding fairly fast and quite a short shot. Got more time to test tomorrow so will try dosing less and maybe a coarser grind still as things seem to be going in the right direction. Thanks again for your help


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

What size is your basket


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

*Stop concentrating on blonding.*

Concentrate on weighing out your espresso in a set time. If it is too bitter grind coarser, too sour grind finer. Ignore what it looks like. Go by taste.


----------



## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

When did blonding become an indicator of deliciousness cutoff???


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Scotford said:


> When did blonding become an indicator of deliciousness cutoff???


A while ago before affordable and accurate precision scales existed!









A few years ago that was the guideline: Stop the shot when it starts blonding.

Regardless, I think the OP is just trying yo diagnose a potential issue here, that some beans/roast profiles are more fussy than others and require more prep attention.

For me, if I remove the anti-static grid on my grinder, I get exactly that, and I can tell the difference in taste big time. So I just use the grinder as it is meant to be used and happy days


----------



## Steevviieee (Aug 3, 2012)

Okay okay so blonding isn't the way to distinguise a good espresso shot. However whilst trying to diagnose the problem I don't feel like I seem to be getting anywhere. I've reduced the dose to 17g so that it isn't digging in to the shower screen and ground a fair bit coarser, it is definitely flowing a bit better but if I leave it to run to about 30g out then I end up with a watery mess, and if I grind finer but keep the same dose I seem to end with exact the same except it pours slower. Does this sound like a channeling issue more than anything else?

Just feel like I now understand nothing about coffee haha, I don't really want to just give up with this bean but I'm definitely not getting anywhere as of yet!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Steevviieee said:


> Okay okay so blonding isn't the way to distinguise a good espresso shot. However whilst trying to diagnose the problem I don't feel like I seem to be getting anywhere. I've reduced the dose to 17g so that it isn't digging in to the shower screen and ground a fair bit coarser, it is definitely flowing a bit better but if I leave it to run to about 30g out then I end up with a watery mess, and if I grind finer but keep the same dose I seem to end with exact the same except it pours slower. Does this sound like a channeling issue more than anything else?
> 
> Just feel like I now understand nothing about coffee haha, I don't really want to just give up with this bean but I'm definitely not getting anywhere as of yet!


So the watery mess isnt taking good? It lacks body ? What is it that you are aiming for with the shot ? Espresso in itself is a liquid , so can you be a little more specific please? Are you tasting the shots or judging them on how the come out the pf ?

Also We do not know what time these shots are taking it might help .

What is stopping you from grinding finer still and trying that ?

Lastly re channeling without a naked pf or a clip of how its coming out the spouts it's a little hard to tell .


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Channeling is either bad distribution or an over-full basket. As you have tested the latter try really mixing up your ground coffee before tamping.

As above, without a naked portafilter its hard to spot channeling, however one indicator is that your shots do not take the same amount of time despite the same grind.

As above, you need to tell us the times the shots take or it means nothing, and you need to know the time in order to know if you should grind finer or coarser.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Happy donkey Italian- dark roasted - robusta blend more thank lowly. Robusta will give the appearance of body and mouthfeel , At that roast level suspect will never blond also.

Fudge- medium dark - not robusta . Will have perception of less cream and body.

Focus on taste , not appearance of shot or crema etc . AgIn tighten grind and note time . Report back


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Jovojgjkjovhjovnvup


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Happy donkey Italian- dark roasted - robusta blend more thank lowly. Robusta will give the appearance of body and mouthfeel , At that roast level suspect will never blond also.
> 
> Fudge- medium dark - not robusta . Will have perception of less cream and body.
> 
> Focus on taste , not appearance of shot or crema etc . AgIn tighten grind and note time . Report back


Mnj


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Mnj


Act fast.....


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Jovojgjkjovhjovnvup


Exactly what i was thinking


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Exactly what i was thinking


Oops phone in pocket! lol! In case anyone's concerned I haven't had a stroke.


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

What size basket are you using? Gaggia standard or VST?


----------



## Steevviieee (Aug 3, 2012)

Gaggia standard, seen various reports on what size in Grams it is supposed to be but for now 17g doesn't seem to be digging into the shower screen screw.

Hopefully tomorrow I can time/weigh my shots and report back.


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Steevviieee said:


> Gaggia standard, seen various reports on what size in Grams it is supposed to be but for now 17g doesn't seem to be digging into the shower screen screw.
> 
> Hopefully tomorrow I can time/weigh my shots and report back.


17g might be pushing it a bit. Gaggia standard basket tended to go up to 16g max imo.

As others have said weigh in weigh out record the time.

If you want to do a video of shot prep and shot it will help too.


----------

