# Can't see the point of the increment temp change. BE



## Donscarlet (Oct 21, 2018)

Can't see the point of the increment temp change. The Barista Express allows you to change temperature profile by one degree via the programing button and the dose buttons.

The group temperature changes by 8 degrees from the first shot to the 5th shot, so what is the point of the incremental temperature setting???

I spoke to Sage about this,they agreed that there is a temperature change between the first 5 shots.I think I will be changing to a dual boiler system soon as there is greater stability once the operating temperature is reached due to the fact there is a volume of water in the boiler as opposed to a thermoblock heating system.


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## Iris (Oct 29, 2018)

Without meaning to sound harsh, your expectations are kind of abit off with a machine like the barista express and its price point, your kind of expecting too much. It does have internal pid and keeps water temperature in a small range within a few set degrees, however its not the most expensive machine and performs well I think for the price it costs.

Most machine in my limited experience need a few temperature flushes upon powering the machine up, and a tiny flush again a few seconds worth of water immediately before pulling a shot.


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## Donscarlet (Oct 21, 2018)

You are probably right about my expectations I know the barista express has PID,as a retired control systems engineer I am looking too closely at the way the temperature is controlled for this price point,but why does the instruction manual state that the temperature can be controlled by one degree,


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## Iris (Oct 29, 2018)

Donscarlet said:


> You are probably right about my expectations I know the barista express has PID,as a retired control systems engineer I am looking too closely at the way the temperature is controlled for this price point,but why does the instruction manual state that the temperature can be controlled by one degree,


lets say for talk sake the first flush of water after turing the machine on was 80 degrees, well if you increased the temp by 1 degree...... then after turning the machine off and letting it fully cool down then the next time you turn it on the first flush would be 81 degrees.

The plus and minus temp setting just adjust the baseline temp then the temp fluctuates between shots... however after the first couple of flushes to get machine up to temp, I kind of find the machine to be quite consistant is pulling maybe 2 or at a push 3 back to shots anymore than that and the water is a little too hot.


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## Donscarlet (Oct 21, 2018)

The baseline temperature would have to be measured at the the thermoblock as there would be heat loss via conduction and that would not be linear it would be proportional to many factors.anyway nice talking.


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## Iris (Oct 29, 2018)

Donscarlet said:


> The baseline temperature would have to be measured at the the thermoblock as there would be heat loss via conduction and that would not be linear it would be proportional to many factors.anyway nice talking.


I mean the baseline temp for first flush once the light comes on indicating the machine is ready for use. You obviously cant measure the temp inside the machine so don't see you point. I am referring to your original question and how you can see a point to the temp settings with an increase and decrease in temp.


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## Donscarlet (Oct 21, 2018)

Do you work for Sage?


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## Iris (Oct 29, 2018)

Donscarlet said:


> Do you work for Sage?


No, why would you ask that? I am just a forum member trying to help you with your question, on my limited experience.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Donscarlet said:


> Can't see the point of the increment temp change. The Barista Express allows you to change temperature profile by one degree via the programing button and the dose buttons.
> 
> The group temperature changes by 8 degrees from the first shot to the 5th shot, so what is the point of the incremental temperature setting???
> 
> I spoke to Sage about this,they agreed that there is a temperature change between the first 5 shots.I think I will be changing to a dual boiler system soon as there is greater stability once the operating temperature is reached due to the fact there is a volume of water in the boiler as opposed to a thermoblock heating system.


They also mention preheating the portafilter in the manual - do you? Are you also aware that you are effectively measuring the temperature of plastic unless you remove and measure metal up under the shower screen.

There are complications of a similar type on all machines but the plastic used on the BE and DTP mean that it may never get a portafilter up to the correct temperature when as with many other machines it would be left in place while the machine heats up. Out interest that will generally extend heat up time by circa 15min, it depends to some extent on how the grouphead itself is heated, if slowly compared with some arrangements there will be less lag with the portafilter catching up. Some people who have that style of machine repeatably flush to speed things up. A flush is generally a good idea anyway in order to make sure the various amounts of metal used in the shower screen arrangement also reach a suitable temperature.

So if someone wants to measure temperature it needs to be the temperature of what comes out or via a portafilter that has been modified to measure actual puck temperatures using something that simulates coffee grounds. Clearly if the portafilter is cold it wont be at the same temperature that the thermoblock produces.Actually the plastic part fitted into the small size Sage portafilters helps with this. Pull a shot with a cold portafilter - the upper regions will heat up a fair bit more than the base under the region covered by the plastic. The portafilter itself though will still be too cold to produce reproducible shots on the trot. Do 3 on the trot and finally it may be. That's probably of little interest to some one who has just bought a machine for the first time because they wont be aware of how precise various aspects of a workflow needs to be. The test is taste which in real terms is what it's all about - getting one that suites who ever is drinking it.

Sage manuals aren't much help on preheating the portafilter as ideally it needs to get up to say 80C, opinions vary so lets just say hot, much too hot to touch except rather briefly. Sage suggest flushing it. One doesn't do much or uses a lot of water. On the DB they suggest using the hot water outlet - better. Steam could be used. What I found preferable on the BE was shot through an empty pressurised basket then remove that and fit and fill the one I intend to use. Some reckon that leaving the portafilter in for a while heats it up on a DTP so a BE should be much the same. Pass, I have my doubts but haven't tried it as I am a heat up time freak and want it to be as quick and thorough as possible. On the DB a 15min heat up time might do it with the portafilter left in but the machine will reckon all is ok in 3.








There was a post about hot water temperature as well. That can be a bit odd. I mostly drink americano style drinks. They can be made 2 ways, hot water into the shot or shot into hot water. I didn't notice any drink temperature problems when I used the first method but they did seem a bit cool when I switched to the 2nd to retain max crema. Solved by preheating the mug a bit, initially via the hot water outlet and later via the output when I flushed through an empty pressurised basket. I suspect this did a little more than just warm the mugs up a bit. I use borosilicate mugs so they don't take up much heat and in real terms Sage machines do not have a cup warmer that gets as hot as it does on many other home and even higher level machines.








I'm a retired engineer as well. What I learned early on is not to dismiss work others had done before me. Actually some areas of Sage machines show signs of intelligence. The BE can definitely produce consistent drinks if enough attention can be given to detail and workflow. I could get stuff out of the cupboard and measure temperatures but haven't. If I did I suspect I would find that the temperature stability is pretty good but all that really matters is taste. I might notice the sound if water boiling off in the thermoblock and then think what could they do about that - tricky for a number of reasons. Same with steam. The thermoblock they use has changed over they years. They don't sit still. Latest I think goes by the name of a thermojet. Sort of suggests something with less thermal mass than a thermblock so can be more agile temperature wise.







Might also be crap who knows but I doubt if it has been designed just by thought experiment. Boiler machines have similar problems relating to thermal mass and heating also the control loop due to varying flow rates. It seems some may hook a flow meter into that but I doubt if any usual home machine does.







Not really clear that any do really.

Talk to Sage - I did in relationship to something else and in passing mentioned how I used the single basket on the BE. The response was effectively can't do that. Well if I followed suggestions in the manual I wouldn't be doing what I was doing and several kg of beans produced consistent drinks so it clearly could be used that way. The unusual fact about the machine is that it can brew up to around 15bar if needed. The gauge readings suggested in the manual are far more suitable for the double basket, circa 9 to 10bar but in real terms there is no reason why people shouldn't use higher or lower. Ideally beans should taste as their tasting notes suggest and pressure is just another variable.

John

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## Donscarlet (Oct 21, 2018)

I am on my second machine,first machine failed in one week and was replaced.the steam wand stopped working.so probably now I am being over critical.


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