# Am i grinding to fine?



## bump100 (Oct 2, 2015)

I am using a Sage dual boiler and no water is coming through group head when using fresh ground beans.The beans are El Salvador Finca Manuela(SSSSS) from Has Bean.The pressure builds up to the right bar and then the water disperses into the waste tray.So am I grinding to fine.I`ve tried using a vst basket and the original sage basket,but nothing works.

When using pre ground Rave signature coffee of which I bought by mistake the espresso is fine and everything is ok.

Do I try grinding a bit coarser?


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Yes - it sounds like it.

Are you also weighing your espresso?

With the VST - weight to what the basket says - it should be nearly full before tamping

If too fine then it will sit very low in the basket before tamping


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## bump100 (Oct 2, 2015)

The vst basket is an 18g.Tried 18g of coffee which was low ,19 g of coffee was still a bit below the rim.I only tried lightly tamping.Might be a daft question but I thought when grinding you took the grinder setting to just above choking the grinder?

Shall i try 20g or 21g in the basket or go higher on the grinder.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

If you've got an 18g VST , put 18g of coffee in it - don't try to fill it. You need a bit of headroom after the tamp. If you're filling it to the top when tamped, it will expand when wet and choke the machine.

Time how long it takes for the coffee to come out (say 36g). If it's more than 30 seconds (for argument's sake) grind coarser. The idea is to dose consistently, tamp consistently, and use scales and a stopwatch to help you set the grind so that you get your target weight (say 18g in > 36g out) in a reasonable time (25-35 seconds). Don't grind so fine it chokes and then back off - that's not how you do it. And don't dose a basket until it's full - weigh in the correct amount. If it's choking you definitely don't want to add more coffee.

Once you've got the grind to the point when you get 1:[email protected]" approx, you can then experiment with different brew ratios to see what you prefer. The whole "[email protected]" thing is a rough guide to what will usually produce a decent espresso. You can go 18:45 if you want, or 18:25 for a ristretto, but try to keep the dose and the tamp consistent and within spec for the basket.


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## bump100 (Oct 2, 2015)

Tried 18g and it was low after lightly tamping.The thing is no water comes out except in the waste tray after the SDB does its thing so i cant time the shot.Works fine in pre ground coffee.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

you are grinding way to fine, back it off, as from what you are saying you are getting nothing from the portafilter


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

18g in an 18g VST isn't "low". It's how it's supposed to be. If you're getting nothing out of course you can't time it - hence the need to make your grind a lot coarser. Not as coarse as pre-ground but at least once you get a shot you can time it. Sounds like you're grinding so fine you're ending up with Turkish and then over filling the basket - no wonder it all goes back through the OPV. If it didn't it'd go down the sink anyhow!


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## bump100 (Oct 2, 2015)

Yes nothing is coming out of the portafilter.

I`m coming from a Sage Pro Grinder which never really ground that fine to a Mazzer Sj which is new to me so i shall go and try grinding coarser.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Cool. Here are some pics of an 18g VST correctly dosed - before and after tamping. There's a good 6-8mm headroom after tamp. See how the top of the tamper is level with the rim of the basket.

If you've just got an SJ, the instructions on the thread I'm about to link to will tell you how to set the grind to roughly the right level. It's for a mini-e but still applies to the SJ. Note the post from El Carajillo #14. Also worth going to the bottom of that thread where there's a link I posted to a PDF document from DavecUK on how to clean/set up the Mini-e.

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=386384


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

bump100 said:


> Yes nothing is coming out of the portafilter.
> 
> I`m coming from a Sage Pro Grinder which never really ground that fine to a Mazzer Sj which is new to me so i shall go and try grinding coarser.


A bit of advice for you, as from your initial post I suspect you don't know this. With dried up shit supermarket beans, one grind level will work. With fresh roasted coffee, different bean varietals will have different grind levels and you will have to change grind when changing bean, also whilst using a particular bean you may have to tighten up the grind as they age.

e.g. Ethiopian Harrar coarser than Brazilian which is coarser grind than El Salvador etc.. This of course if for beans roasted to their normal levels for that coffee. If they are roasted super light or super dark this can change things a little.


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## bump100 (Oct 2, 2015)

Thankyou for the link/pictures.

The coffee in my basket looks as in the picture.

I now have something which resembles coffee coming through the machine but taste like sh*t,very sour and takes an age to get rid of the taste.

I have 18g coffee in a 18g vst basket, preinfusion of 9 sec, 21 sec shot and weighs 38.80g.

Do you think i should grind a bit finer.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Don't preinfuse for as long and see what happens.

Try for a total time of 25-27 seconds from when you switch on the pump until you cut the shot.

Adjust grind from there to try and hit that ballpark.


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## bump100 (Oct 2, 2015)

Ok.Can`t try this today as i have been kicked out of the kitcken for making to much mess by the wife.

The machine is the sage dual boiler .Normally the pre infusion is about 6 sec but with El Salvador Finca Manuela beans its 9 sec.Have to find the manual to adjust the preinfusion.

Prehaps its might be time to have some home training as i don't seem to be getting anywhere and after having the machine for a few months all i`m doing is wasting good coffee beans and have never pulled a good shot.


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

Some training might be good before you get fed up and buy a nespresso!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Have you had the white gloves service that is on offer from sage when you buy the machine


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I'm sure there's someone near that could do training in Reading. You probably just need a few pointers and for someone to pull a few shots that work, explain how they did it and you'd be alright. Don't lose heart. Also it might be a good idea to try a medium roast blend rather than HB SSSSS to practice on - for one, you might save a few quid and 2, it's possible that those beans will need careful extraction to really get the best from them - fall short and they might be quite citrussy/acidic.


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## bump100 (Oct 2, 2015)

I bought the machine second hand so no white glove service.

I came from a nespresso/tassimo then a Francis X1 and numerous gaggias(baby/classic) and i don't wont to go full circle.

I`m trying at the moment to arrange a day with Glenn,so things can only get better.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Hi Bump, I wouldn't call it training because I'm still learning but I'd be willing to try and give you a hand sometime I'm pretty close to Reading.

To change pre-infusion you just press the up and down arrows at the same time and then can change pressure percentage or time for pre-infusion (which are the two settings for it)


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Excellent. Glenn will sort you out.


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## bump100 (Oct 2, 2015)

Hope so.Training to be the middle of Feb so i have a few weeks to play around


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## bump100 (Oct 2, 2015)

Hi jlarkin.Thankyou for the offer of trying to show me the ropes and i really appreciate that but i have booked glenn to sort it out.I will also change the preinfusion tomorrow.


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