# Clever Dripper Recipes



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I mainly make espresso based drink however since working from home I've started using the CCD more.

I tend to use a couple of variations of the same recipe based around the Squaremile one.

20g ground fairly coarse on the old style Feldgrind 2:7

300ml of water straight from a boiling kettle onto the grinds.

Stir for 15 secs

Leave for 5 mins

Aim for an approx 2 min drawdown.

The other variation I do is to stir less and leave for a long immersion brew of 30-40 mins.

I'm wanting to improve on this. Any tips?

http:// https://www.squaremileblog.com/brew-guide-clever-dripper/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Make the biggest brew you can (30g coffee 65-70g/L), maybe about 1+8 to 1+10 on V1 Feld?

Water in first, or 2/3 in then coffee, muddle at top but don't sink it all.

If it's the V2 Clever, a gold filter like Swiss gold inside the filter paper helps it drain better & a cleaner cup.

Avoid low solubility coffees (Brazil, Guat, Costa Rica).


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You can't really aim for a drawdown time, best to aim for the grind & steep time that gives the sweetest extraction, then drawdown will be what it is.


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Make the biggest brew you can (30g coffee 65-70g/L), maybe about 1+8 to 1+10 on V1 Feld?
> Water in first, or 2/3 in then coffee, muddle at top but don't sink it all.
> If it's the V2 Clever, a gold filter like Swiss gold inside the filter paper helps it drain better & a cleaner cup.
> Avoid low solubility coffees (Brazil, Guat, Costa Rica).


Thanks for the advice on the Swiss Gold.

I do have the bigger CCD which holds approx 320ml.
Sorry for being thick, I didn't understand what you meant by (30g coffee 65-70g/L

65g/L works out to be 20.8g for 320ml. Is that what I should be working towards.

On my Feldgrind 1+8 is slightly coarser than aeropress, V60 is around the 2+6 (which is what I've been aiming at)
Is 1+8-1+10 correct for CCD?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Thanks for the advice on the Swiss Gold.
> 
> I do have the bigger CCD which holds approx 320ml.
> Sorry for being thick, I didn't understand what you meant by (30g coffee 65-70g/L
> ...


 The big CCD should hold more like 450g, so 30g coffee = 67g/L. More mass means better heat retention.

CCD & Aeropress work the same way, so grind should be similar, you can certainly use coarse espresso. Hence why getting the/most of the water in first helps, saves on fines getting flushed through the paper when filling the brewer.

2+7 is medium drip range, too coarse for a declining temp steep (unless insulated like a double wall steel press). Grind as fine as you can before bittering silt becomes an issue. According to my records I was at 1+10 with my Feld v1.

With the Swissgold, be sure to preheat everything.

Towards the end of steep you can lift off the lid & taste off the top, avoiding silt/oils, every now & then (replacing lid between tastes) & draw down into a preheated cup/server when you feel the flavour peaks.


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

MWJB said:


> The big CCD should hold more like 450g, so 30g coffee = 67g/L. More mass means better heat retention.
> CCD & Aeropress work the same way, so grind should be similar, you can certainly use coarse espresso. Hence why getting the/most of the water in first helps, saves on fines getting flushed through the paper when filling the brewer.
> 2+7 is medium drip range, too coarse for a declining temp steep (unless insulated like a double wall steel press). Grind as fine as you can before bittering silt becomes an issue. According to my records I was at 1+10 with my Feld v1.
> With the Swissgold, be sure to preheat everything.
> Towards the end of steep you can lift off the lid & taste off the top, avoiding silt/oils, every now & then (replacing lid between tastes) & draw down into a preheated cup/server when you feel the flavour peaks.


Cheers MWJB 
Fantastic advice.

I have noticed fines coming through on the last few brews.

So water in first then slightly push the grinds under. No big stir?
Long Emerson brew.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> So water in first then slightly push the grinds under. No big stir?
> Long Emerson brew.


 Yes, just dab them enough to see that they're all moist & break up clumps (should only take a few seconds), they'll pretty much all sink by the end of steep. If there is anything floating after 35 min just gently make a hole if tasting off the top.

Too much stirring & agitation can make brews more bitter, without any increase in extraction.


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Make the biggest brew you can (30g coffee 65-70g/L), maybe about 1+8 to 1+10 on V1 Feld?
> 
> Water in first, or 2/3 in then coffee, muddle at top but don't sink it all.
> 
> ...


 Is this the swissgold filter tat fits the ccd?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/SwissGold-reusable-shape-coffee-filter/dp/B005G20R7I


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Is this the swissgold filter tat fits the ccd?
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/SwissGold-reusable-shape-coffee-filter/dp/B005G20R7I


 I'm not sure, it looks like fake? Swissgold switched to a more silvery coloured filter in recent years, or so I thought. 44% ratings at 1 star? Maybe avoid this version?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I'd buy from here:

https://www.anothercoffee.co.uk/products/item110303.aspx


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

This is all really interesting.

@MWJB If one has an AP already, do you think there is a benefit to getting a Clever Dripper too?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

SuffolkDoug said:


> This is all really interesting.
> 
> @MWJB If one has an AP already, do you think there is a benefit to getting a Clever Dripper too?


 I have a couple of each, if that's an answer 

Clever is less steps for bigger brews (400ml), I prefer the clean up with Clever.

If just making 1 mug brews & you're happy with the workflow with AP, maybe little to be gained.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

MWJB said:


> I have a couple of each, if that's an answer 🙂
> 
> Clever is less steps for bigger brews (400ml), I prefer the clean up with Clever.
> 
> If just making 1 mug brews & you're happy with the workflow with AP, maybe little to be gained.


 Thanks. Helpful as always.

The clever looks good if you need to make two cups, although if it is 400ml max then that might be a little on the small side. Hmm. Will have a think. Been thinking about getting something to more easily cater for me and my dad I've the world gets back to normal.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

SuffolkDoug said:


> Thanks. Helpful as always.
> 
> The clever looks good if you need to make two cups, although if it is 400ml max then that might be a little on the small side. Hmm. Will have a think. Been thinking about getting something to more easily cater for me and my dad I've the world gets back to normal.


 You can get a bit over 400ml, especially if you use #6 papers & just let them poke out of the lid.


----------



## Gary5709 (Oct 25, 2016)

Just out of interest does anyone add milk to their Clever Dripper brews, or pour overs in general? Or is that a travesty to end all travesties?!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

If you like milk in it, put milk in it (there is no correct way). If you're putting milk in it just to fix it because it's unpleasant without, maybe show us what you're doing & we might be able to help.


----------



## Gary5709 (Oct 25, 2016)

MWJB said:


> If you like milk in it, put milk in it (there is no correct way). If you're putting milk in it just to fix it because it's unpleasant without, maybe show us what you're doing & we might be able to help.


 Not necessarily to fix the taste but just wondered in general as most places seem to always serve it black. Tasting notes are always based on black I presume so wondered if adding milk was frowned upon


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Gary5709 said:


> Not necessarily to fix the taste but just wondered in general as most places seem to always serve it black. Tasting notes are always based on black I presume so wondered if adding milk was frowned upon


 Have you never tasted black coffee that you thought was tasty enough without milk? Just curious, for instance my girlfriend takes milk in instant & nespresso/cappuccino/coffee out, but she'll take filter coffee black when I make it for her.

Live & let live, as far as I'm concerned. I don't take milk, but if I did, I wouldn't care what others frowned on. Coffee beverage is not found in nature, we have to make it, so we can decide what goes in & what doesn't


----------



## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Gary5709 said:


> Just out of interest does anyone add milk to their Clever Dripper brews, or pour overs in general? Or is that a travesty to end all travesties?!


 I like a dash of cream in it. 
I have certainly reduced the amount to a tiny splash as I have improved my technique and ended up with better tasting brews


----------



## Wuyang (Mar 21, 2014)

Absolutely loved my clever dripper.......stopped using it for now as it was upsetting my tummy compared to my moka pot. Sadly miss using it.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

With @BlackCatCoffee Ethiopian Yirgacheffe I am currently on 19.5g coffee @ 30-35 on the Niche + 300ml for 30mins

Really very tasty. This is certainly a delicate coffee (as the description says) so 65g/l works better. I notice a bigger difference going from 60-65g than 65-70g/l - I never really thought I'd be able to discern a slight difference like that, but I have repeated and it is there.

I have also now experienced the 'paracetamol' taste discussed elsewhere. Noticing this and backing off gradually has helped draw the flavours out.

I am finding after 30mins the coffee is a little cool if my mug isn't pre-heated to hot, so I will experiment with slightly shorter brew times.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

Another recipe I tried over the weekend was this....

1ltr Gin > A load of sloes > Leave for 3 Months > No steep required, pour straight through

Note if you don't sift the big bits, then you'll get a stalled drawdown....


----------



## 9bar-ista (Jan 28, 2018)

Has anyone gotten great results brewing Geishas with a Clever?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

9bar-ista said:


> Has anyone gotten great results brewing Geishas with a Clever?


 Beyond updosing, if felt to be necessary to bump up intensity, why would you change what you normally do?


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

I'm sure I read somewhere @MWJB taking about the difference in what the filter looks like between a clever and something else, but now I can't find it.

Anyways, given I'm constantly wondering if 'this' is the best it (said coffee) can taste, it niggled.

I know the answer will be 'if you like how it tastes, don't worry about it' ... But can anything be inferred from the look of this?!?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> I'm sure I read somewhere @MWJB taking about the difference in what the filter looks like between a clever and something else, but now I can't find it.


 Not sure that was me, I don't pay much attention to what a bed looks like.

What were the brew parameters? This may be more enlightening.

What was wrong with the taste of the brew? How would you score it in overall liking (bearing in mind that few coffees can achieve a top score)?


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Not sure that was me, I don't pay much attention to what a bed looks like.
> 
> What were the brew parameters? This may be more enlightening.
> 
> What was wrong with the taste of the brew? How would you score it in overall liking (bearing in mind that few coffees can achieve a top score)?


 I seem to remember comments about whether there is just 'scum' or scum and grounds on the side of the filter after draw down. Maybe I'm going mad.

The parameters for this were:

32 on niche. 19.5g + 300ml water

Straight off boil into warm CD > 100ml > coffee > rest of water. Dab top with back of spoon to make sure all under. Lid on.

Wrap in tea towel. Leave for 30mins.

Single continuous drain into pre-warmed mug until dry bed.

Flavours slightly muted, hint of bitterness. But generally totally drinkable.

They are Ethiopian, so I know I've got potential compactions there.


----------



## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

I tried your method for a 1min steep yesterday. The first one I didn't stir to sink the grinds, the bottom dropped out of the brew as there was no bed to speak of and it was a bit too weak but tasted ok. Did a 2nd where I stirred at about 50s in and got bitterness - is it a matter of being gentler with the stirring or did I take the grind too coarse (3 turns / 90 clicks on the JX)? I wasn't really a fan of it since the updose required is significant and I feel like I'm wasting coffee. In thinking a big v60 may be a better option for a large quick brew.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> I seem to remember comments about whether there is just 'scum' or scum and grounds on the side of the filter after draw down. Maybe I'm going mad.
> 
> The parameters for this were:
> 
> ...


 See if it's still hot enough to be enjoyable at 35, or 40min.

I think I said there should just be a little floating scum on the surface of the brew at draw down time?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Kjk said:


> I tried your method for a 1min steep yesterday. The first one I didn't stir to sink the grinds, the bottom dropped out of the brew as there was no bed to speak of and it was a bit too weak but tasted ok. Did a 2nd where I stirred at about 50s in and got bitterness - is it a matter of being gentler with the stirring or did I take the grind too coarse (3 turns / 90 clicks on the JX)? I wasn't really a fan of it since the updose required is significant and I feel like I'm wasting coffee. In thinking a big v60 may be a better option for a large quick brew.


 Does the JX have suggested settings for brew methods? I have no idea what a turn or a click means.

If you were too coarse the brew would likely be bland & weak.

It's good to make sure all the coffee is wetted (no obviously dry clods) as soon as you dump it onto the water. Then sink crust at 0:45 with a few dabs. There's no serious stirring at all.

Sure, at the low extractions targeted, you can only get a similar strength by updosing. But I'm more concerned with what gives a good brew at an acceptable dose & a lot of folk are happy to use 20g per cup.

V60 is a better prospect for a quick brew (higher extraction, less coffee to water, less brew water absorbed).


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Does the JX have suggested settings for brew methods? I have no ide what a turn or a click means.


 @KjkAccording to this 3 turns on a JxPro would be moka pot grind? Too fine for the 1min Clever steep. https://1zpresso.coffee/grindsetting/

Maybe try more like 3.8? I am at coarser end of 1mug pour over.


----------



## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

MWJB said:


> @KjkAccording to this 3 turns on a JxPro would be moka pot grind? Too fine for the 1min Clever steep. https://1zpresso.coffee/grindsetting/
> 
> Maybe try more like 3.8? I am at coarser end of 1mug pour over.


 I've got a JX which puts it at the coarse end of pourover and the finer end of the middle 3rd of french press.

I'll play around with it but luckily I have the time for the long steep which I'm really enjoying - thanks for sharing your method for that. I got a lot more sweetness in the moka pot range.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

@MWJB Cheers. I'll try that and report back.

I am going to up my insulation game (lockdown has done bad things to me) with a neoprene wrap and my MiL might be knitting a tea cosy type thing too.


----------



## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

Any tips on using the small (300g)? I'm planning on using this one in the office. Doing a test brew and annoyingly I have a floating cone with the size 2 paper - it doesn't sit as nicely as the size 4 in the big brewer.

Also 300g seems to be max total so 275g water + coffee should keep the work health and safety brigade off my back.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Must say, I have no espresso machine at the moment so have reverted back to my Clever, Moka pot and Boilbrew. By a country mile, the Clever wins for me. I expect to be told I am doing it wrong but I have the Large one (very kindly donated by MWJB along with a Swiss gold) which I put 20 gms in with an unscientific amount of water, blood 30 seconds steep 3.30 and probably beginners luck but wonderful so far! Though I am always left with water which once it has stood is absorbed, so, should that mean grind coarser?


----------



## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

dfk41 said:


> Must say, I have no espresso machine at the moment so have reverted back to my Clever, Moka pot and Boilbrew. By a country mile, the Clever wins for me. I expect to be told I am doing it wrong but I have the Large one (very kindly donated by MWJB along with a Swiss gold) which I put 20 gms in with an unscientific amount of water, blood 30 seconds steep 3.30 and probably beginners luck but wonderful so far! Though I am always left with water which once it has stood is absorbed, so, should that mean grind coarser?


 As long as you're liking it i think carry on! Do you mean water in the brewer after releasing? I think there are a few teaspoons left behind and that is just due to the design, you will always have a "sleeve" of water that isn't in contact during the brew so it looks very weak when you release.

You can get a faster drawdown if you add the water first then the coffee (I'm doing most of the water in with a little bit more to make sure the coffee on top is wet). I think bloom is less relevant as immersion is long contact which mitigates the influence of CO2 on the brew.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Kjk said:


> Any tips on using the small (300g)? I'm planning on using this one in the office. Doing a test brew and annoyingly I have a floating cone with the size 2 paper - it doesn't sit as nicely as the size 4 in the big brewer.
> 
> Also 300g seems to be max total so 275g water + coffee should keep the work health and safety brigade off my back.


 Yeah, I usually use the #4 paper in the small Clever & a #6 when I can get them in the large one. Just let's you get the water in a bit quicker, without as much risk of overflow.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Must say, I have no espresso machine at the moment so have reverted back to my Clever, Moka pot and Boilbrew. By a country mile, the Clever wins for me. I expect to be told I am doing it wrong but I have the Large one (very kindly donated by MWJB along with a Swiss gold) which I put 20 gms in with an unscientific amount of water, blood 30 seconds steep 3.30 and probably beginners luck but wonderful so far! Though I am always left with water which once it has stood is absorbed, so, should that mean grind coarser?


 Doesn't the water drain if you leave it a bit longer (draw down times don't mean much & you should never change grind because of that, just change grind if the taste is off).


----------



## 9bar-ista (Jan 28, 2018)

MWJB said:


> Beyond updosing, if felt to be necessary to bump up intensity, why would you change what you normally do?


 My go to brew method is the v60, but was curious if a clever with some immersion works well with geishas as well


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

9bar-ista said:


> My go to brew method is the v60, but was curious if a clever with some immersion works well with geishas as well


 Immersion doesn't really make any difference to percolation at the same extraction, it just takes a lot longer by immersion (30-40min, big Clever brew), so usually you're extracting less with Clever. This can be fine, but then needs up-dosing to get equivalent extraction. Then with a subtle Gesha you might want to up-dose a little more...then you're quickly making your way through beans.

I'd stick to your usual brewer/routine, assuming that is working well for you. If it's not, dial it in with something less expensive first.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Doesn't the water drain if you leave it a bit longer (draw down times don't mean much & you should never change grind because of that, just change grind if the taste is off).


 As usual, I had not thought of that! Is there a recommended draw time? I stopped within the water in and just go by eye, which I know is wrong!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> As usual, I had not thought of that! Is there a recommended draw time? I stopped within the water in and just go by eye, which I know is wrong!


 No, there's no recommended draw time. It's just a function of grind size and coffee dose weight.

For a big, long Clever brew it might be 5min, for a small, quick brew it might be 35s. Both might taste equally good, just with different doses & extractions.

If using the Swissgold, the coffee will run off the coffee bed in the permanent filter quickly, but there might be few drops retained in the paper for a few minutes, I wouldn't worry about this.


----------



## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

dfk41 said:


> As usual, I had not thought of that! Is there a recommended draw time? I stopped within the water in and just go by eye, which I know is wrong!


 I don't think you're going to be doing too badly with it. What is nice is that it's a fixed volume so if you put roughly the same amount of coffee and water in you should get a pretty reliable result. This is the main reason why I'm picking the clever for work, I want to be able to throw it together and leave it for a while knowing it will be tasty and it will beat the office B2C machine by a mile.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Kjk said:


> What is nice is that it's a fixed volume so if you put roughly the same amount of coffee and water in you should get a pretty reliable result.


 This is the same for any brewer. The easiest brew to make in the Clever (mid level extractions, medium grind, from say 4-15min) are usually the worst tasting.

Reliability is less of an issue, than finding the lower, or higher sweet spots.


----------



## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

Taking a long steep a level deeper, maybe I'll wrap the oven mitt around it next time.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

@Kjk Good work. It makes a surprising difference.

I'm currently on 1TT folded 2/3 times wrapped round and tucked in handle. 1 cork trivet underneath. 1 cork trivet on top. 1TT covering the whole lot.

Really helps on 30min+ steeps

I've also done a template for a 'jacket' I'm tempted to make out of neoprene - but I can't bring myself to actually buy it and make it. Yet.


----------



## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> @Kjk Good work. It makes a surprising difference.
> 
> I'm currently on 1TT folded 2/3 times wrapped round and tucked in handle. 1 cork trivet underneath. 1 cork trivet on top. 1TT covering the whole lot.
> 
> ...


 Very nice, I was thinking of a similar project as well - have got a meal kit delivery coming today so I can play around with their insulation pack. How warm does the bottom trivet get? I was thinking there shouldn't be too much loss in that area as there is a lot of plastic at the bottom and don't expect much air circulation.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

Kjk said:


> Very nice, I was thinking of a similar project as well - have got a meal kit delivery coming today so I can play around with their insulation pack. How warm does the bottom trivet get? I was thinking there shouldn't be too much loss in that area as there is a lot of plastic at the bottom and don't expect much air circulation.


 The bottom trivet is more to protect the CD from the cold work surface. Old house and this recent cold snap has reminded me what a difference it makes.

It is slightly warm to the touch after a 30min steep. Cork seems to be a very good insulator.

Im coming off the back of a bad cold (wonderfully mundane good old fashioned cold and not COVID) so got some beans arriving tomorrow hopefully. Never seems worth it when I'm totally bunged up.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Made a couple of brews on CCD with filter paper and Swissgold used together. I decided to fine grind for the clever.

Mark @MWJB was as usual very helpful. The readings are :

1) 30g:420g, 1.4 JX Pro rotations, 30 mins. The black was good, not sour, no bitterness at all, smooth and balanced. There was no flavour. It was on the weaker side and got a score of 7/9. My wife drank with milk. She said, it had no flavour, the worst coffee I made, and gave the cup 3/9. Got 330g liquid.

- I will have to add a few more grams of coffee and see how it goes.

- The last 20-30g took 5 mins to drain. Coarse grind may help.

2) 20g:210g, 1.35 JX Pro rotations, 30 mins. Got 150.7 g liquid. The cup was better and little stronger than 1. There was a tinge of flavour. The black coffee score is 8/9. It is a good cup to drink as black and too weak to make it as a milk-based drink. Given the finer grind, the last 20-30g liquid took a lot of time.

I will replicate the AP and Indian filter settings and see. The beans are medium and medium-dark.


----------



## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Made a couple of brews on CCD with filter paper and Swissgold used together. I decided to fine grind for the clever.
> 
> Mark @MWJB was as usual very helpful. The readings are :
> 
> ...


 Re: drain time - are you pouring water over coffee or coffee into water? The word is that you get a faster drawdown when doing the latter (I've ground pretty fine on the JX - Moka range - and had 2min drawdown max), could be the double filter playing a role too...

Also worth noting that your strength will be lower with an immersion brew. For percolation, you can assume the water retained by the bed is just water, wheras your retention under immersion is brewed coffee - therefore you would have to use more coffee to get comparable strength output - video here.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Kjk said:


> Also worth noting that your strength will be lower with an immersion brew. For percolation, you can assume the water retained by the bed is just water, wheras your retention under immersion is brewed coffee - therefore you would have to use more coffee to get comparable strength output - video here.


 With a long, fine steep, you get a comparable strength brew as you do with drip.


----------



## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

MWJB said:


> With a long, fine steep, you get a comparable strength brew as you do with drip.


 The learning keeps on coming! Have you observed a sweet spot for steep duration then (aside from the obvious cooling effect of water)? I guess the 'steep as long as you want' situation would be an insulated french press - if/when does diminishing returns with respect to steep duration start to kick in to no longer be meaningful, or is this just too open a question to have a practical answer?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Kjk said:


> are you pouring water over coffee or coffee into water?


 coffee into water



Kjk said:


> Also worth noting that your strength will be lower with an immersion brew. For percolation, you can assume the water retained by the bed is just water, wheras your retention under immersion is brewed coffee - therefore you would have to use more coffee to get comparable strength output - video here.


 Yeah, thank you. Have a had a few lessons on this from Mark! 😊 The long steep strength was defo better on AP for similar grind, brew ratio and coffee.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Kjk said:


> The learning keeps on coming! Have you observed a sweet spot for steep duration then (aside from the obvious cooling effect of water)? I guess the 'steep as long as you want' situation would be an insulated french press - if/when does diminishing returns with respect to steep duration start to kick in to no longer be meaningful, or is this just too open a question to have a practical answer?


 It's more the level of extraction, which is lower in a declining temp steep. Much after 35-40min in the Clever you run the risk of cold coffee. You need to grind fine to hit the extraction due to less energy, due to cooler temp.

In an insulated French press, you retain more heat, so can steep longer before the coffee is too cool, you can also grind coarser than a long steep in the Clever, because you have more energy from the hotter extraction. I often steep for an hour, even 2 in a large, steel, insulated press.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

The biggest challenge for me is heat retention. Even 20 mins steep is lukewarm for me. 😃 It's just me and defo not the draw back of brews 😊

I need to look for a thermal insulated cover / box.


----------



## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

Sounds like we're coming up with the design brief for the Clever Cosy! @PortafilterProcrastinator have you gotten anywhere with your template?


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> The biggest challenge for me is heat retention. Even 20 mins steep is lukewarm for me. 😃 It's just me and defo not the draw back of brews 😊
> 
> I need to look for a thermal insulated cover / box.


 Do you wrap it in anything? Do you pre-heat your mug?

My mug gets about 50s in the microwave to make sure it is warm enough not to suck the heat out the coffee.



Kjk said:


> Sounds like we're coming up with the design brief for the Clever Cosy! @PortafilterProcrastinator have you gotten anywhere with your template?


 Kind of...

I am thinking of getting a pack of these from IKEA: https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/heat-pot-stand-cork-87077700/

Cutting a slot in it so the lid handle fits in snuggly and then trim it to the same size at the lid. Might be a disaster, but for £2 I'll give it a go.

For the 'wrap' I am thinking some neoprene. Seems to be referred to as plain sponge neoprene - so not the rubberised stuff. Thickness (likely to be 12 > 20mm) will depend on how much I am willing to spend.

This is the maths I am following (taken from a google search)









Top has a radius of 67mm - so an L1 of 421mm

Bottom has a radius of 30mm - so an L2 of 188.5mm

I forgot to measure 'g'.

There will need to be some overlap and need to work out how to keep it together. I was thinking some kind of press/ snap fastener if they will work with the thickness of the neoprene.

https://www.jamiltonupholstery.co.uk/product/press-fasteners/

If anyone has any ideas for a better material for the wrap do shout.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> Do you wrap it in anything? Do you pre-heat your mug?
> 
> My mug gets about 50s in the microwave to make sure it is warm enough not to suck the heat out the coffee.
> 
> ...


 No, I don't. I keep in the microwave as it is a little warmer. I get a preheated mug to extract. Thx


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> Do you wrap it in anything? Do you pre-heat your mug?
> 
> My mug gets about 50s in the microwave to make sure it is warm enough not to suck the heat out the coffee.
> 
> ...


 @PortafilterProcrastinator and @Kjk - I wonder if this would be a perfect fit

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Insulated-Delivery-Foldaway-Bags-Outdoor-Insulation/dp/B073VJK7VG/ref=asc_df_B073VJK7VG/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=375472930947&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2184615604273286384&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007247&hvtargid=pla-420257273447&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=83648335104&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=375472930947&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2184615604273286384&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007247&hvtargid=pla-420257273447


----------



## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

I was thinking something more form fitting. I've got a pair of scissors and an unwanted running buff, may manage a template in the next day or so.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

@Kjk @Like Medium Strong Coffee ditto - looking for something more bespoke. Also think I'd never be allowed to leave it out in the kitchen for as long as necessary.

Once the template works it should be quite easy.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

Random observation. The Clever Dripper fits perfectly inside the 1kg Airscape (8" diameter I think).









Maybe a simpler option to find something that size/ shape.

Also thinking plenty of people make tea cosies on Etsy - might be something that can be commissioned.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

Lid cover options:

https://www.hilltop-products.co.uk/tapered-natural-cork-stopper-bungs-size-133-5mm-140mm.html?utm_source=google_shopping&ppc_keyword=&atrkid=V3ADW1A4763C1_45045777064_pla-297612067635__170050851794_g_m_pla__&gclid=CjwKCAjwvMqDBhB8EiwA2iSmPJ5z70GR_Md5j_S0SXvcHTg5WhAMlsEG3_w0StEMPzQ6ri3tfu-V5RoCNjEQAvD_BwE

Expensive, but very chunky.

Or a cheaper option...

https://www.bodum.com/gb/en/11779-109b-basics?gclid=CjwKCAjwvMqDBhB8EiwA2iSmPPesxoGmVtcWnIs-HOQAP1qS49u4haHxfpLgC3x-fthwchNGx5z-jxoCS0IQAvD_BwE

I'm also now looking at using cork for the wrap too if I can get it thick enough.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

I bought the bodum trivets and they are a perfect size. I think having one on top makes a noticeable difference to the heat of the brew on long steeps.

The wrap will have to wait. Simply do not have time at the moment.

Back to recipes....

For those that really enjoy long steeps, have you experimented with finer grinds on shorter steeps to increase extraction?

I am totally in a comfort zone with 30-45min steeps and want a 5min option, but don't want to sacrifice extraction completely.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> I am totally in a comfort zone with 30-45min steeps and want a 5min option, but don't want to sacrifice extraction completely.


 This is tricky, because there is a wide 'bland/flat/generic/bitter' range. I don't think 5 min is long enough to get close to the long steep extractions. So for short steeps I purposely aim for a low extraction & steep coarse, 85-90g/L for 1-2min.

You could also try at the same grind as long steep, water in 1st, stir gently to fully wet the coffee, this could take 20s, then draw down at 30s, maybe a bit longer. It'll have a lot of mouth feel.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

MWJB said:


> This is tricky, because there is a wide 'bland/flat/generic/bitter' range. I don't think 5 min is long enough to get close to the long steep extractions. So for short steeps I purposely aim for a low extraction & steep coarse, 85-90g/L for 1-2min.
> 
> You could also try at the same grind as long steep, water in 1st, stir gently to fully wet the coffee, this could take 20s, then draw down at 30s, maybe a bit longer. It'll have a lot of mouth feel.


 Thanks

I'll give it a try.

Have you found that what you use to stir makes a difference? Perhaps a difference in the amount of aggitation?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> Thanks
> 
> I'll give it a try.
> 
> Have you found that what you use to stir makes a difference? Perhaps a difference in the amount of aggitation?


 I use an Aeropress paddle, or just a desert spoon, I put water in 1st & just make sure the coffee has no dry clumps visible.

Once the coffee is wet, much more agitation will make the cup bitter, not because of over-extraction, but because more particles will get into the cup.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

MWJB said:


> I use an Aeropress paddle, or just a desert spoon, I put water in 1st & just make sure the coffee has no dry clumps visible.
> 
> Once the coffee is wet, much more agitation will make the cup bitter, not because of over-extraction, but because more particles will get into the cup.


 Bingo - exactly why I asked th question. I've noted your comments on aggitation and bitterness before so wondered if some implements were better than others.

On my long steeps I'm currently 50%ish water then coffee, then the rest of the water to cover/ sink etc.

I'll dig my paddle out and have a go tomorrow.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> On my long steeps I'm currently 50%ish water then coffee, then the rest of the water to cover/ sink etc


 That might be enough, I don't sink all the grinds on a long steep.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

MWJB said:


> That might be enough, I don't sink all the grinds on a long steep.


 I'll try all the water and not sinking the grinds too.

I am guessing this affects the level of extraction if the water is cooling whilst some of the grinds have not been submerged yet? i.e. the last grinds to submerge/ sink extract less than those earlier as the water is cooler.

Does this affect extraction to a noticeable extent (not necessary taste, but if you are measuring with a VST)?

P.S. Where do you get your Size 6 papers from? This is pretty much the only place I can find:

https://www.hrhiggins.co.uk/product/accessories/accessories-for-coffee/filter-papers-size-6/


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> I'll try all the water and not sinking the grinds too.
> 
> I am guessing this affects the level of extraction if the water is cooling whilst some of the grinds have not been submerged yet? i.e. the last grinds to submerge/ sink extract less than those earlier as the water is cooler.
> 
> ...


 Re.grinds/cooling/extraction later/less - just because grinds have sunk doesn't mean that they are fully extracted, just that they have sunk. The top of the slurry will be the hottest & most soluble. There's no practical way to measure the variation in extraction across the grinds, if there was a problem I'd guess it would show up in the brew...all I can detect is that in lower extracting steeps flavour generally tends to be not as good.

Extraction is simply a game of less v more (assuming you don't introduce non extraction related faults, like overly silty brews).

With the current Clever, I wouldn't add coffee first, even if this would result in higher extraction, because you will immediately flush silt through the paper, because of the large well under the filter. Yes, I use a VST, but I don't syringe filter the finer grind brews (technically I should, so make of that what you will).

Here are my last few Clever brews, sorted by brew time, then 'unfiltered TDSxbrew water weight', a couple of charts at the bottom...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19gYqlWnr_OLLQSj-z1G_gx_oFVwCRlXhN9yyYaCOITI/edit?usp=sharing

...these are all 1 cup brews, as that's what I mainly drink at the moment & 20min is as long as I can go before the coffee is too cool, I would recommend making larger brews.

Yes, I think the last #6 papers I got were from Hr Higgins, admittedly they are not easy to find in white. If you have a small kettle with a minimum boil of less than 400ml (don't burn out the household kettle doing this), you can weigh the cold brew water into the kettle & pour the boiling water into the brewer without fear of overflowing the filter paper with the #4s.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

I have a question:

Once I see a completely dry coffee bed on the Swissgold filter, lifting it leaves a puddle of liquid on paper filter. I am thinking that this liquid typically gives bitterness on the cup than a few extra grams of tasty coffee and should be chucked out. It takes about a min to see the full coffee bed on the SwissGold filter.

What do you guys do please ? This is typically 15g-20g of liquid.

I am planning to grind coarser by 0.2 to 0.4 turns to go coarser espresso grind size to ascertain the left-over liquid on the paper filter.

For the record,I get a clean good cup, it is not sour, nice fruity acidity but a bit bitter.

The parameters are 20:225g, 1.6 turns on JX Pro, 30 mins, 165g on the cup, 55.1 deg C (after wrapping the clever on a woollen blanket). Btw, I will give the cup 7/9.

Thx


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Once I see a completely dry coffee bed on the Swissgold filter, lifting it leaves a puddle of liquid on paper filter. I am thinking that this liquid typically gives bitterness on the cup than a few extra grams of tasty coffee and should be chucked out. It takes about a min to see the full coffee bed on the SwissGold filter.
> 
> What do you guys do please ? This is typically 15g-20g of liquid.


 This small amount of liquid would normally be concealed by the grounds bed, It's just visible because the bulk of the grounds are suspended in the Swissgold filter. It could take 10s of minutes to drip though the paper.

You're losing 3x the dose weight in absorbed/rapped liquid, this is pretty normal for a long steep/truncated cone brewer.

If the coffee is clean, not at all silty, I'd maybe go finer until it does become silty, then back off a little coarser to last good setting.

Nice move with the towel


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MWJB said:


> This small amount of liquid would normally be concealed


 Yeah, I don't see it the SwissGold is lifted. I guess, once the liquid is dry off the SG, I will lift the clever off the cup.



MWJB said:


> If the coffee is clean, not at all silty, I'd maybe go finer until it does become silty,


 Sure. I will give it a go @ 4 micro-clicks a time. Thx Mark!


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Re.grinds/cooling/extraction later/less - just because grinds have sunk doesn't mean that they are fully extracted, just that they have sunk. The top of the slurry will be the hottest & most soluble. There's no practical way to measure the variation in extraction across the grinds, if there was a problem I'd guess it would show up in the brew...all I can detect is that in lower extracting steeps flavour generally tends to be not as good.
> 
> Extraction is simply a game of less v more (assuming you don't introduce non extraction related faults, like overly silty brews).
> 
> ...


 Thanks Mark, as helpful and insightful as ever. An interesting set of results you've got there. #28 was interesting in so far as you stirred and then steeped for 25mins.

Have you noticed a correlation between when you stir and potential bitterness? i.e. if you stir early and leave for a longer steep, you reduce/ mitigate bitterness because you get less silt in the cup still?

I have tried a few steeps with all water in first, coffee on top - breaking any clumps with a tooth pick but not sinking anything. Quite surprised at the difference in taste. I am still deciding on 'better' or 'different'. Draw down is a lot quicker. I want to experiment with when I sink the crust.

Ironically I haven't had a chance to try a shorter steep as I am so 'into' my routine of setting it all up, getting stuff done, and then going back to it.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I would suggest you get any stirring done early, like as soon as you add the water. I did a brief test years ago, quick stir at start, then progressively longer stirs all at 10min steep. They didn't extract any more but still got progressively more bitter, my hunch was the wetted grounds become more fragile & break down with too much agitation, more small particles make it through the paper & are bittering in the cup.

Notice that brews 31 & 25 extracted more where I partially filled, then just let the remaining pour do the wetting.

Shorter steeps can be very tasty, but inevitably extract less & maybe a little less complexity...I'm all for complexity & flavour clarity, but if pushed for time I'll take an easy win, if available.

If you're going to deliberately sink the crust, maybe do it early on, rather than after a considerable steep.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@MWJB

I found even grinding at the lower end of the espresso range - JX Pro 1.3 turns - makes no difference to the strength in the cup as black coffee. It was smooth and sweet. I would give it a score of 8/9.

With similar milk volume, I found the coffee just averaged compared to the previous grind size of 2.1 turns. The coffee with milk was better at 2.1 grind size. All other variables are constant.

Could you explain us how the grind size changes the tasting notes please ?

Thx Mark!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @MWJB
> 
> I found even grinding at the lower end of the espresso range - JX Pro 1.3 turns - makes no difference to the strength in the cup as black coffee. It was smooth and sweet. I would give it a score of 8/9.
> 
> ...


 The finer you grind the very slightly higher the extraction. Not in a considerable/immediately apparent way, as the extraction slows exponentially against time, but as you're just knocking on the door of the high, good zone a little (maybe a %) can be enough.

The limit to grinding fine is when you start getting silty cups, or wetting becomes hard & extractions drop again. Many might be surprised how fine you can actually grind.

When you say "similar volume of milk", do you mean equal coffee to milk? With filter strength coffee most people would add more like a splash of milk, otherwise the coffee may be overwhelmed.

Cheers, Mark/


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MWJB said:


> The limit to grinding fine is when you start getting silty cups, or wetting becomes hard & extractions drop again. Many might be surprised how fine you can actually grind.


 I was surprised the brew didn't extract bitterness almost at the lower end of espresso. I am just 4 micro clicks from the lower end of espresso. It's fantastic to drink as black. It was a clean good cup. Yes, I do not lift and check the amount of liquid left below Swiss gold. I lift the clever soon after seeing a dry coffee bed on the SG. This definitely avoids the bitterness on the cup.



MWJB said:


> similar volume of milk"


 I typically get 160-165g black on the cup. I add about a half - 80g - milk. That's what I did this morning after such a fine grind. May be, the extraction has dropped off at this level. I must learn not to add so much milk, may be.

I will try and grind still finer and coarser by 4 ticks at a time to identify the sweet spot. Considering the black at two extremes tasted the same, perhaps the delta is too small to notice for some one like me.

Thanks mate!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Added a gram extra from the typical 27g:300g. Went finer by 4 notches lower at 1.2 on Jx pro. I was talking to some one, while pouring water. Added 225g than 300. Brewed for 30. The cup was strong, smooth and nice yielding 161g.

It was a good mistake as I added 161g of milk giving us 2 strong cups of coffee. I do not know what the TDS and EYs would have been on this cup. Grinding finer from 1.3 to 1.2 gave me a tiny bit of silts (I could only feel it on my mouth). Despite producing a very good cup, it loses a point (from the morning score) for the silts - 7/9. I will go back to 1.3 for 20:225 and 27:225.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

For the evening brew, assuming the EY of 19% as a ballpark approximation of 18% - 20% of a very good cup - thanks to Mark @MWJB, the TDS is 3.3%.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

A few observations from my recent brews (billy-boy-basic compared to the above)...

Short Brews: I just can't get them to work. Sour, weak, not good (I was warned...). If the only way to go is carry on increasing the dose, I doubt I will try much more. Seems too wasteful.

Method 1&2: 85g/l 300ml 25.5g @ 32 on niche



All water in straight off boil


Coffee on top


Gentle stir to get everything wet


Draw down on 2mins & 5mins


Method 3: Exactly the same as above, apart from I put 200ml water in, then the coffee, then the rest of the water. Little stir again. I did think this had more chance of being bitter, but no.

I will try grinding finer. I can't remember why I didn't know.

On longer steeps (25-40mins) I have noticed putting all the coffee on top of all the water and not wetting/ sinking it seems to result in a weaker / thinner cup relative to 2/3rds water, then coffee, then rest of water OR sinking the crust at 5 or 10mins.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> A few observations from my recent brews (billy-boy-basic compared to the above)...
> 
> Short Brews: I just can't get them to work. Sour, weak, not good (I was warned...). If the only way to go is carry on increasing the dose, I doubt I will try much more. Seems too wasteful.
> 
> ...


 On short steeps you don't really have too much option beyond up dosing a bit to bolster strength. 85g/L should give about 1.4%TDS +/-0.15% if you are on target (normal filter range).

Short steeps 'work', but it is a different target to long, you can't do in a handful of minutes what takes 20+ minutes to do. It's just the universal laws of nature at work 

32 on Niche strikes me as too fine for a short steep, that's why they are sour when you are steeping for whole minutes. The 32 Niche short brew I did that extracted as I wanted was only 30s, stirred/wetted for 20s, but it had a lot of mouhfeel (not my preference but you might like it). I'd be thinking more like 80-90 on Niche for a short steep.

If the amount of coffee concerns you with shorter steeps, make a smaller brew at your preferred dose limit. People make espresso shots with 16-20g of coffee, so making a drink 4-5 times longer doesn't seem like an issue to me?

Whatever time you are steeping for, you need to wet the coffee. That's a given. Either as you are by splitting the water pour, or by mixing it at the surface. If you sink the crust at 5-10min, you will limit extraction, there shouldn't be anything to speak of to sink after 30min, just a little surface scum maybe.

Your brew ratio seems very coffee heavy for a long steep? You should be able to hit 1.4% to 1.6%TDS with a 1:15 ratio (66.7g/L). Fair enough if you like the coffee stronger.

Anyhow., I have my Clever & Niche at hand, so let me know how your next brew goes (making a video might be useful too) & I'll try and do the same here & get back to you.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Had one of best clever brews today.

30:300, 1.3 Jx pro turns and 38 mins (aimed for 45 but we were already late for work). We had a very good clean cup, good body and pleasant notes; it was also sweet. I would easily give the cup 8.5/9; my wife said this was one of the best cups she has had so far.

For clever, we have already settled on this very fine grind.

We also wrap the clever with a thick blanket. It stays warm enough at 57-60 deg C. I wonder if this makes a positive difference to the cup quality.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Brewed Crankhouse Izuba washed - light roast - for the first time. I maintained the same parameters like the last brew (up from 38 to 45 mins): 25:250, 1.3 Jx pro turns and 45 mins steep.

While it was hard to grind this light roast on JX Pro, the cup was very smooth, clean, nice and notes intensive. I think this coffee meant to be enjoyed as a black, which we did.

Both my daughter and I immediately smelled and picked up Mermalade orange and caramel notes. Almond was not apparent, though. We both rated it 7/9; while I enjoyed the coffee, my daughter did like it but the beans wasn't to her taste buds. We never had such a light roast before. This may be the reason.

Considering the strong notes, we added more water to the up to lighten the strength as the coffee was a little stronger and had pronounced bitterness - marmalade orange bitter and not paracetamol bitter. I think Mark @MWJB did mention a few times that we can't over extract while brewing, unless I have misunderstood it.

- I will be curious to add milk and taste. This is for the evening coffee on the Indian filter.

- I do not think I should grind coarser as it is the same grind size for the previous best brews for different beans

- should I maintain the grind size, brew time the same and change the ratio to 26:420 or change just the steep time to 20 or 30 mins ?

I am not keen to drop the steep time as notes may not develop fully. I am leaning towards 13:210 for a single cup.

Thanks!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> - should I maintain the grind size, brew time the same and change the ratio to 26:420 or change just the steep time to 20 or 30 mins ?


 If you are going to drink it black, then I'd keep the same grind & steep time &, as you suggest, go for a longer brew ratio. Sure try 26:420g to 28:420g?


----------



## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Brewed Crankhouse Izuba washed - light roast - for the first time. I maintained the same parameters like the last brew (up from 38 to 45 mins): 25:250, 1.3 Jx pro turns and 45 mins steep.
> 
> While it was hard to grind this light roast on JX Pro, the cup was very smooth, clean, nice and notes intensive. I think this coffee meant to be enjoyed as a black, which we did.
> 
> ...


 That Crankhouse Izuba is delicious. Are you getting the cranberry? I remember enjoying it a bit more as an espresso than filter.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Kjk said:


> That Crankhouse Izuba is delicious. Are you getting the cranberry? I remember enjoying it a bit more as an espresso than filter.


 The notes were fully developed. The notes were intense and very nice. I could defo pick up the Orange marmalade, liken Brown sugar to Caramel. The cranberry was perhaps subtle and we could not pick up explicitly as the other two were dominating. May be, it will be if I were to brew 13-14g:210g next time.

It was very hard to grind on Jx Pro. It's also expensive!

Did you? Thanks


----------



## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> The notes were fully developed. The notes were intense and very nice. I could defo pick up the Orange marmalade, liken Brown sugar to Caramel. The cranberry was perhaps subtle and we could not pick up explicitly as the other two were dominating. May be, it will be if I were to brew 13-14g:210g next time.
> 
> It was very hard to grind on Jx Pro. It's also expensive!
> 
> Did you? Thanks


 Yeah I really liked it, but enjoyed it more in a style highlighting the acidity so you could try a quick steep/low extraction/higher dose brew and see what you think... Should cut down on the grinding effort too!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Kjk said:


> Yeah I really liked it, but enjoyed it more in a style highlighting the acidity so you could try a quick steep/low extraction/higher dose brew and see what you think... Should cut down on the grinding effort too!


 I plan to brew a higher dose as highlighted above, while loosening the grind to make it easier.

We did an Indian filter on the same last evening. A very strong brew 1:7 using 25g for two, as it was for milk. It was very nice.

I have frozen and reserved the rest of the bag for my espresso; the machine is not expected at least until mid-June. I will also brew a small batch at that time. I will come back on this. Thanks


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

MWJB said:


> On short steeps you don't really have too much option beyond up dosing a bit to bolster strength. 85g/L should give about 1.4%TDS +/-0.15% if you are on target (normal filter range).
> 
> Short steeps 'work', but it is a different target to long, you can't do in a handful of minutes what takes 20+ minutes to do. It's just the universal laws of nature at work 🙂
> 
> ...


 Thanks. As soon as I think I am starting to understand things....

Short Steep/ Coarse Grind: So when doing short steeps you also want to reduce the amount of extraction? Is that because you increase your dose as well? So extract less from more coffee?

Amount of Coffee / Brew Ratio: I think the amount of coffee comes down to me having got into the habit/ conditioned myself to see an immersion brew as a 'good cup of coffee' but also being conscious of the amount of coffee I am getting through. I tend to stick to 60-70g/l depending on the beans. I agree, my most recent beans have needed the full 70g/l to get a preferred flavour profile. I struggle mentally with 80-90g/l and a smaller cup.

Wetting the Coffee: Noted - I think I must have misunderstood a previous comment you made about process. Makes complete sense. I do find there are still some grinds floating on the surface after 30mins. I ended up leaving one over the weekend for nearly an hour and a half (unintentional - that's young children for you) which was nice. Nothing at all on surface there. Not too cold which was surprising. Cup was pre-warmed but not hot.

I've not had a chance to experiment over the last week (its been pretty horrendous) and I am running out of beans, but I do have some Rave Rwanada Kilimbi No107 on order now, so that should arrive in the next few days.

I don't think I am going to be able to do videos, but I will prep a few recipes to specifically try and can feed back on those.

On other matters - does anyone use a Coffee Sock or similar cloth filter in their CD?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> Short Steep/ Coarse Grind: So when doing short steeps you also want to reduce the amount of extraction? Is that because you increase your dose as well? So extract less from more coffee?


 Short steep & coarser grind means that you inevitably extract less. You can extract a bit more with short steep & fine grind, but you run the risks of a silty cup &/or running into the flat/bitter zone of mid extraction. So I prefer to use a coarser grind to make sure I stay in the range of fewest defects/malfunctions with a short steep.

Because the targeted extraction is about a third less, the strength at a ratio you would use for a long steep, is also a third less, so updose to restore strength & avoid very weak cups.



PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> Amount of Coffee / Brew Ratio: I think the amount of coffee comes down to me having got into the habit/ conditioned myself to see an immersion brew as a 'good cup of coffee' but also being conscious of the amount of coffee I am getting through. I tend to stick to 60-70g/l depending on the beans. I agree, my most recent beans have needed the full 70g/l to get a preferred flavour profile. I struggle mentally with 80-90g/l and a smaller cup.


 I don't equate immersions to "good cups" necessarily, immersions make it easier to hit low & tasty extractions than drip , they make it hard to hit high & tasty extractions (compared to drip) without long brew times. Most methods make equally tasty cups when dialled in and you look at a range of coffees/origins. Ratio drives strength rather than flavour profile (unless something you are doing ratio-wise is having a knock on effect in extraction). Moka pots, Turkish & espresso all use high brew ratios, espresso especially (>250g/L?) yet it's still very popular 

My short steep, 20g dosed Clevers averaged 176g in the cup from 1.33%TDS to 1.55%TDS. My long steep, 15g dose, Clevers averaged 180g in the cup, from 1.33%TDS to 1.61%TDS. Both averaged 223-224g brew water. So a lot of overlap. Broadly, whilst a different result, I didn't have a strong preference for one over the other, but long steep had better clarity. The most obvious difference was in brew time.

V60/Chemex have lower brew water absorption than gravity steep, siphon & short steep Aeropress (pressed through to hiss) a bit less than V60/Chemex. So Clever isn't the best option for water in vs coffee out (but we're talking a dose worth of beverage weight, which isn't a big deal).

Sorry to hear about your week, here's hoping for a better one.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

Right, new beans are in (Rave Kilimbi No.107). Had one very nice cup based on Method 1a.

Other methods proposed, anything to change?

On method 3 I am wondering about dose.

They aren't all that scientific and I know there are umpteen more to try, but this is a start.

*Method 1a: *

60g/l = 18g @32 on Niche + 300ml water

250ml in + coffee + remaining water. Slight stir if not all wet.

Steep for 30min, wrapped in a couple of TTs and a cork trivet on top.

*Method 1b: *

As above but a 20min steep.

*Method 1c: *

As above but at 60min steep.

*Method 2: *

85g/L = 25.5g @80-90 on Niche + 300ml water (Niche grind range partly due to it not being on the scale)

250ml in + coffee + remaining water. Slight stir if not all wet.

1-2min steep.

*Method 3: *

60g/l = 18g @32 on Niche + 300ml water

All water in + coffee. Stir for approx. 20s to fully wet all coffee.

Draw down at 30s.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> *Method 1a: *
> 
> 60g/l = 18g @32 on Niche + 300ml water
> 
> 250ml in + coffee + remaining water. Slight stir if not all wet.


 Put in 200g of the water, then the coffee , then you shouldn't need to stir (maybe a couple of dabs if you see dry clumps).

1b: 20min might be OK with some coffee, I tend to go with the lowest common denominator, so that it works with the largest range of coffees. A good brewed method shouldn't need changes depending on coffee.

1c: If it's warm enough to enjoy after 60min, then I don't see why not. I wouldn't try 60min in a Clever without some serious insulation.



PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> *Method 2: *
> 
> 85g/L = 25.5g @80-90 on Niche + 300ml water (Niche grind range partly due to it not being on the scale)
> 
> ...


 I put in all the water, then the coffee. Gentle wetting at surface. I'm actively trying to limit extraction, to avoid defects, so I'm not trying hard to extract/be super efficient 

Knock down the crust 15s before draw down.

Set your Niche to 50. Stick a 2nd marker at "0". So when you go 10 marks coarser on the 2nd mark you are now at 60, 30 marks is 80 & so on.



PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> *Method 3: *
> 
> 60g/l = 18g @32 on Niche + 300ml water
> 
> ...


 This will probably be a low extraction, as per the coarse 1-2min steep (but siltier), so I wouldn't drop the dose as the result will be weak.

Really, my advice would be to not change grind all the time, stick to 1 or 2 different steep times/ratios & if results are decent, keep everything the same for a few different bags & assess average scores for your cups. It seems like it might be tricky to track what all these options produce & then sort into data you can use?


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Put in 200g of the water, then the coffee , then you shouldn't need to stir (maybe a couple of dabs if you see dry clumps).
> 
> 1b: 20min might be OK with some coffee, I tend to go with the lowest common denominator, so that it works with the largest range of coffees. A good brewed method shouldn't need changes depending on coffee.


 Thanks @MWJB.

Does it make (much of) a difference to extraction the amount of water that goes in over the coffee? I ended up at 250ml/g because more seemed to sink the coffee, rather than just wet it all.

The last beans I had I was surprised by the 20min steep, which is why I've got it here. All these methods might make nice cups - some better than others - which means I will have options depending on the time I have.



MWJB said:


> 1c: If it's warm enough to enjoy after 60min, then I don't see why not. I wouldn't try 60min in a Clever without some serious insulation.


 I am still working on that. But a few TTs and a cork trivet on top does seem to work well with a pre-heated cup.



MWJB said:


> Set your Niche to 50. Stick a 2nd marker at "0". So when you go 10 marks coarser on the 2nd mark you are now at 60, 30 marks is 80 & so on.


 Brilliant - so simple!



MWJB said:


> This will probably be a low extraction, as per the coarse 1-2min steep (but siltier), so I wouldn't drop the dose as the result will be weak.
> 
> Really, my advice would be to not change grind all the time, stick to 1 or 2 different steep times/ratios & if results are decent, keep everything the same for a few different bags & assess average scores for your cups. It seems like it might be tricky to track what all these options produce & then sort into data you can use?


 Method 3: So keep it at 85g/l - okay, will try that.

This is never going to be overly scientific, but I do note down what I like or don't like and why for each brew.

My goal is 2/3 methods that I can use depending on the time I have. I don't want to be changing things all the time - just something else to forget to do!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> Thanks @MWJB.
> 
> Does it make (much of) a difference to extraction the amount of water that goes in over the coffee? I ended up at 250ml/g because more seemed to sink the coffee, rather than just wet it all.


 The biggest difference brew water amount will make will be to the strength, more so than the extraction/flavour balance.

But I don't see the need to sink the coffee in a long steep, as opposed to ensuring it is wet even if it still floats.


----------



## James811 (May 10, 2014)

Just had a go with my clever again for the first time in a couple of years.

I went with my standard 12g/200g water.

I watched a load of YouTube videos earlier and most of them were using a coarse grind with around a 3 minute steep, I can't imagine it being very tasty.

After looking at some of these recipes I decided to go somewhere in the middle of what I saw online and what I'd read here.

My sage grinder goes from 60(coarse) down to 1(fine), so I went with 30 (grind was similar to sugar) did a 10 minute steep, the draw down took just under 2 minutes. For a total of 11:50. It was much cleaner than my recent aeropress attempts have been but lacking flavour, it was just very, meh.

I feel like with a finer grind and a longer steep it'll get better. Tomorrow I'll try a slightly finer grind and bump up to a 20 minute steep and see how it is.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

James811 said:


> For a total of 11:50. It was much cleaner than my recent aeropress attempts have been but lacking flavour, it was just very, meh.


 On Mark's @MWJB recommendation, I have been steadily grinding finer, which took me to the espresso range for clever. I stopped when I found the cup was getting silts at JX Pro 1.3 turns. Now, I have a settled grind size at 1.4 - middle of the espresso grind - for 30-45 mins steep. This is good for most of the beans. I get a clean cup and sweet cup, which is full of notes and after taste. I use both paper and Swissgold filters.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Today, I did a long steep on clever brewing 20:225 on 1.4 turns on Jx pro. As usual, I wrapped the clever with a woollen blanket. It was one of the best cups I have had with sweet notes. Most of my brews these days are either a clever or an Indian filter. The former is primarily black, while the latter is for milk based drinks - 23g:175g, 1.6 on Jx pro, gentle tamp and steep that takes 45 mins.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

So, perhaps unsurprisingly, my preferred methods are as follows having had a few beans through.

*Method 1a: *

60g/l = 18g @32 on Niche + 300ml water

250ml in + coffee + remaining water. Slight stir if not all wet.

Steep for 30min, wrapped in a couple of TTs and a cork trivet on top.

*Method 1c: *

As above but at 60+min steep.

*Observations: *The longer you can leave it the better. The flavour seems more balanced.

I do need to work on my insultation. I like the CCD a lot, so I think I'll pursue insulating better rather than moving over to an insulated French Press. The longest I left it to brew was 1hr 45mins, which was not planned. But with a hot mug it was drinkable and a decent temperature.

*Method 2: *

85g/L = 25.5g @80-90 on Niche + 300ml water (Niche grind range partly due to it not being on the scale)

250ml in + coffee + remaining water. Slight stir if not all wet.

1-2min steep.

*Observations: *I ended up at c.85 on the Niche, I couldn't tell much difference adjusting the grind size around there. Flavours were good - always interesting to compare to the long steep on the same beans. I did tend to stir slightly as a matter of course.

For me these methods give me the options I need with enough consistency so I can brew long or short depending on what's going on.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Brewed Coffer by the Casuals, Kenya light roast this noon. Fine espresso grind on JX pro, Swiss gold filter, 12g:200g, water in first and 30 mins brew. It was a great to drink as a black coffee with peach and pears notes and nice acidity. The pineapple notes were on the espresso, though.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Funka 21 from Extract coffee for lunch. Brewed for just 7 mins (ran out of patience), 20g:225g water and got ~174g on the pre-heated up. Drank as black.

Filter, Swissgold, 175g water in first, coffee, stir, 50g more water, and brewed for 7. It was a very good sweet cup with notes of gooseberry and a bit of lime soda.


----------



## whinmoor85 (Jul 4, 2013)

2021 World Brewers Cup competitor Santoso Ardiansyah used a Clever. He used two pours - first is 30g to bloom, then drains and the second pour for 200g.


----------



## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

I couldn't tell, did he discard the bloom water, or keep it?


----------



## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

wintoid said:


> I couldn't tell, did he discard the bloom water, or keep it?


 Looks like he kept it.


----------



## James811 (May 10, 2014)

My new go to clever recipe

12g:165g ground pretty fine at 16 on comandante

All water in first, then coffee on top. Start the timer and stir for 30 seconds. Then allow it to stand up to 1 minute and drain. The draw down will take around 1 minute finishing within 2 minutes total.

Compared to my usual recipe this is extremely sweet and juicy, very thick in the mouth with NO bitterness. Give it a go people 

This is also my aeropress recipe by the way


----------



## James811 (May 10, 2014)

After more playing with the clever the last few weeks I've found another great recipe. I like the water in first method as it makes the length draw down a lot more predictable. However I feel it removes a lot of extraction because there's no agitation to speak of.

So, a coffee in first recipe

12-200g ground at 30 on commandante

Coffee if first, water 1 minute off boil. Slow ish pour taking around 30s to get the total brew weight in, at 1 minute break the crust, then at 1:30 begin to drain.

This has a slower draw down because the coffee is in first, most brews finish around 3 minutes


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

James811 said:


> After more playing with the clever the last few weeks I've found another great recipe. I like the water in first method as it makes the length draw down a lot more predictable. However I feel it removes a lot of extraction because there's no agitation to speak of.
> 
> So, a coffee in first recipe
> 
> ...


 You're not going to get much extraction either way at 1:30.

It's probably moot if you are enjoying the cups, if you need to bolster intensity you can brew somewhat stronger.

You'll know if extraction is too low because the cups will be bland, if too high they'll be sour, bitter, flat, generic.


----------

