# Coffee too sour on Europiccola - even after adjusting quite a few things



## ramanaaa (Apr 1, 2016)

Hi Everyone,

Was wondering whether you guys have some suggestions on how to make the coffee less sour.

I manage to make a great espresso with Arabica beans. Now I'm running into issues when switching to a different type of bean and the coffee comes out very sour. The beans I have used are a Brazilian yellow Bourbon from Hasbean (http://bit.ly/1UgvLO7) as well as a Tanzanian Bourbon from Ozone Coffee roasters in London (region Mbeya, fully washed). Both smell amazing as roasted beans, but the espresso comes out way too sour.

It becomes a bit better after the following adjustments, but still way too sour:

- Grind a lot finer on my SJ almost choking level (more sour if I grind coarser)

- Pre-infuse a lot longer --> up to a minute, but similar results with about 30 seconds. (on the arabica beans I pre-infused about 5-10 seconds).

- Upped the pressure-stat setting such that I reach 1.0 bar before it switches off. The time I use it is when it indicates 1.0bar as well. (was about 0.8bar before).

- Improved the false-pressure release a lot more: keep the steamer open while boiler comes up to temp until steam comes out. Pull the lever up to just before water comes out, open the steamer again for false-pressure bleed and pull lever up for a bit of water release while steamer is open. Close both immediately after. Wait until the pressure comes back up.

- Make sure both the grouphead as well as the pf are also warm.

- Downdosed to 11.5g (from 14gr of the arabica beans)

- Different methods of tamping to make sure it's consistent (hard tamp, soft tamp, tamping in 3 batches)

- Different brew ratios (different methods of pulling) to get brew ratios of 1.8 to 3.

Kind of running out of things to try here and getting desperate...

Many thanks.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Is it sour or is it fruity acidity?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Have you tried the coffees through any other brew method? I'm suspecting this is a coffee bean thing rather than a technique thing.


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## ramanaaa (Apr 1, 2016)

hmm.. Interesting. I'll try them on a moka (only needs a slightly coarser grind I presume). Don't have any other coffee brewing equipment unfortunately.

I'll give some other beans a try as well as I didn't since applying more adjustments (I tried another one as well, but don't recall the name at the moment which was not a bourbon), I have a bit of choice.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

What's the longest brew ratio you can get?


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## ramanaaa (Apr 1, 2016)

It's difficult to gauge for me whether it's sour or fruity acidity, I guess I don't know the flavour profiles well enough.

The Hasbean rates it as 6 out of 8, the Ozone one notes flavours as milk chocolate, raisin and black grape and acidity as lime and blackberry (found it online as well: http://bit.ly/25Ar8de) and they recommend an aeropress as brewing method.


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## ramanaaa (Apr 1, 2016)

MWJB said:


> What's the longest brew ratio you can get?


What do you mean with longest brew ratio? Highest level: it's a much as I'd want right? if I grind coarser and increase the pre-infusion, do a double pull, I could get to 4 potentially (if not more), but never tried... The highest I've gotten is around 3 if I remember correctly.

I'll try the moka and also a different bean than arabica and the bourbons, just to check. If not, do you guys think a video would help?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ramanaaa said:


> What do you mean with longest brew ratio? Highest level: it's a much as I'd want right? if I grind coarser and increase the pre-infusion, do a double pull, I could get to 4 potentially (if not more), but never tried... The highest I've gotten is around 3 if I remember correctly.
> 
> I'll try the moka and also a different bean than arabica and the bourbons, just to check. If not, do you guys think a video would help?


You only have a limited amount of water in the group for a single pull, so just interested to see what maximum output you can get from that, the more you put through the puck, the more you will extract.

Won't the temperature of the water decrease with very long pre-infusions? A minute might be pushing it?

I wouldn't grind coarser, unless it's just a little coarser to see if things improve (if you go too fine, extraction might be dropping off again).

Note the changes you make, one by one...if you say you have changed a bunch of parameters, without saying what they were & the result, it's hard to establish any kind of pattern. Yes, a video might be useful.


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Were the beans you did like from Hasbean as well?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ramanaaa said:


> It's difficult to gauge for me whether it's sour or fruity acidity, I guess I don't know the flavour profiles well enough.
> 
> The Hasbean rates it as 6 out of 8, the Ozone one notes flavours as milk chocolate, raisin and black grape and acidity as lime and blackberry (found it online as well: http://bit.ly/25Ar8de) and they recommend an aeropress as brewing method.


Sour would be something you find objectionable, ripe peaches & plums have acidity but aren't sour. Some people like more tart flavours like rhubarb, gooseberry, grapefruit, which I think a lot of folk would describe as sour.

Looking at the coffees you have, I'd perhaps suggest trying very short shots around 1:1 to 1:1.3, see if you can pull them short enough that the sourness is eliminated, but you are still getting some sweetness.


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## ramanaaa (Apr 1, 2016)

MWJB said:


> You only have a limited amount of water in the group for a single pull, so just interested to see what maximum output you can get from that, the more you put through the puck, the more you will extract.
> 
> Won't the temperature of the water decrease with very long pre-infusions? A minute might be pushing it?
> 
> ...


A minute is probably pushing it, but I figured, lets try the whole range to see the effects. 20-30 seconds is probably the least sour.

I think the max I've had was around 33gr on 12gr of beans on a single pull, will relatively long pre-infusion (30 seconds).

On the changes, all had a small incremental improvement, but in total not close enough to be enjoyable. I'd describe it as objectionably sour/acidic. I'll give the shorter pull a try, maybe that'll help. And the moka and the different beans and will revert, hopefully including a video (will prob take me a few days as I'm not home all mornings and if I am, I have limited time and make 1 or 2 a day).



Jumbo Ratty said:


> Were the beans you did like from Hasbean as well?


Those were from Harrods actually (the only place close to work that sells decent whole beans and I was desperate, similar price range actually so I can't complain).


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

ramanaaa said:


> Those were from Harrods actually (the only place close to work that sells decent whole beans and I was desperate, similar price range actually so I can't complain).


Have you had any beans from hasbean you have liked ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ramanaaa said:


> I'll give the shorter pull a try, maybe that'll help. And the moka and the different beans and will revert, hopefully including a video...


Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting you pull all your shots short if you have been making great espresso with the Harrods beans (keep that method & settings as before). Just try the beans that have been giving you sour brews, shorter. Different beans & roasts give different levels of solubility, what might be working for the Harrods beans might not be working for the others. If the Harrods beans are a darker roast, they may not be producing such sour drinks, even if a little under-extracted.


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

ramanaaa said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Was wondering whether you guys have some suggestions on how to make the coffee less sour.
> 
> I manage to make a great espresso with Arabica beans. Now I'm running into issues when switching to a different type of bean and the coffee comes out very sour. The beans I have used are a Brazilian yellow Bourbon from Hasbean .


There is a thread about how some people dont appreciate the sour taste of hasbean

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?4452-Confession-time-I-don-t-like-HasBean-beans&highlight=hasbean


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Love it 2011


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> There is a thread about how some people dont appreciate the sour taste of hasbean
> 
> http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?4452-Confession-time-I-don-t-like-HasBean-beans&highlight=hasbean


I think it's a bit bizarre to suggest that all the beans from a roaster, that stocks the variety that Has Bean stock, can't be appreciated by a particular individual.

They have so many different beans & varying roast levels that there's probably something for everyone. The Brazilian in question isn't perhaps the most soluble bean, but changing parameters to avoid sourness might do the trick.

Do I absolutely love every bean? No, but the variety they offer means many more hits than misses.

Beans aren't sour, only the drinks made from them can be sour, there's often a workaround for that too.


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Love it 2011


But there may be some good information on that thread which was still active up to 3 months ago that will still be relevant to this question posted by the OP

#78 for instance

"When I first started out I had 3 attempts at Hasbean beans and hated them.

In the last 18 months I've had 3 IMM subscriptions and really like them, I can't remember having a duff batch.

I use them mainly for espresso and using Mazzer kit. The only change I've done with my technique is I tend to brew slightly longer 35 secs (17g =>35g) as opposed to 25-30.

Tastes do change, try a longer duration shots."


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

MWJB has you on the right track.

Generally 'sour' means underextracted. If it's making your cheek jowls pucker then it's sour. Bitter suggests over extracted.

You're already preinfusing which should help with an even extraction through the whole puck. However, if your drink is not pouring out evenly from the whole puck then work on your distribution.

Assuming distribution - and therefore extraction - is even, then if you pull a longer shot you should extract more from the bean but at some point you will start extracting undesirable bitter flavours.

Grinding finer should also increase extraction... that is until the puck resistance gets so high as to reduce extraction again. (This happens before choking.). In this case shrink your dose so you can grind finer to maintain flow and increase extraction again.

Higher temperature can also increase extraction - move between 93.5C and 95.5C. Too low a temperature can result in sour.

Try one thing at a time: distribution first, grind and dose next, temperature as a tweak.

If the bean you mention is a lighter roast, then it will require more effort to extract so could be that a combination of all of these factors works for you.

It may be that it's just not the bean for you. My stock recommendation at this point is Brighton Lanes from Coffeecompass which has the widest 'sweet spot' of any coffee I've tried.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

How long have you rested the coffee? I often find I need to give Hasbean beans a good 10+ days rest until I find them enjoyable as espresso, although not sure why.

How soon after pulling the shots are you drinking them? If you let them cool down after pulling, you might find you're better able to taste and separate flavours which can help you figure out how different changes are affecting the shots.

How hard are you pulling down on the lever? Sometimes with the Caravel I find that if I pull more softly/slowly on the lever i can tweek the flow rate/pressure and lose acidity. My thinking is that I'm increasing contact time between coffee and water. The Caravel is a bit of a different beast to the Euro but maybe the same principles can apply.

To echo comments of others, try the coffee non-espresso style and see if you actually like it, although I'd personnaly recommend doing a french press or cupping rather than a mokka pot.


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## ramanaaa (Apr 1, 2016)

Resting time was about 2 weeks when I started trying it (delivery got a bit hung up as they tried my home address). Though I had the same with the other beans from Ozone, hence I don't think it's the beans/roaster specific. I'll try a different variety (maybe it's just the Bourbon variety that's like that).

I'll try it directly after pulling the shots, let me see how it is if I wait a bit for it to cool down.

I've tried adjusting the speed of flow as well to no avail. But I can try and downdose further and perhaps grind either a bit finer as well as a bit coarser.

Unfortunately I don't have a bottomless yet, so don't see extraction fully. I'm thinking about having it made bottomless or ordering one that's online (they are a bit on the expensive side, but given how much coffee I'm taking in it's probability worth it soon).

The Harrods beans were indeed a darker roast and the others a bit on the lighter side which might explain the difference as well. I'll see if I have another somewhat darker roast to try.

Many thanks everyone. I have plenty to go around with again now.


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## ramanaaa (Apr 1, 2016)

To get back to everyone and for further reference, I've managed to make it not sour, even bitter! Now I can actually fine tune and try to find the right balance. Thanks everyone for their advice. For flat-whites, I actually make it a touch sour as combined with the milk it then comes out very smooth.

In my opinion the main drivers were:

1) Improved distribution (I probably underestimated this). Now I fill the basket with say 12-13g, try and spread it evenly and drop the basket from 1cm height a few times before tamping as a pre-tamp and you can see already a bit whether it is more or less even)

2) Very fine grind: it only comes out quite slowly from the grinder (I can time it if of interest to anyone how long it takes for a dose of 13g, but I think around 15-20 seconds)

3) Upped the pressure-stat a bit further: now it goes up to 1.15 bar (I tried 1.2 bar as well, but the pavoni becomes way too hot after a second shot). I make sure it's already hot, by flushing about a shot with the portafilter in it to heat it up as well for the first shot, while having the steamer open at the same time (but cool the portafilter (pf) for the second shot and use it to cool the group head a bit as well).

4) I raise the lever, before inserting the pf with the filled basket. Then insert the pf, and raise the lever a touch so the water only enters the group head *very slowly*. This allows for longer pre-infusion without cooling the water that enters: stolen from the Slayer machine technique discussed here.

Hope this helps for future reference.


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## ramanaaa (Apr 1, 2016)




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