# Tripping RCD without being on



## langton82 (Apr 2, 2018)

Hi all. I would be really grateful of any advice that could be offered.

We've had a Silvia for almost a couple of years and have loved using it. A couple of weeks ago I noticed the electricity around our home wasn't working one morning because an RCD on the house fuse box had tripped. After a bit of investigation I discovered the culprit was the coffee machine. And, significantly, it was tripping the RCD without even having to be turned on.

Does anyone have any idea what in the machine might be causing this? I have been assuming it can't be too many different things because of the fact it's happening without being turned on (but I may well be wrong).

Second quandary: It is under warranty from the sellers. They are asking me to send it to an address in Wales (which I need to pay for) to be checked out. But I'm less than satisfied by their levels of professionalism or courtesy and I'm suspicious that upon inspecting it they'll say I've caused the fault (which I'm confident I haven't). I don't relish the prospect of sending them what feels to us a very expensive machine with no assurances of when or if I'll see it again.

As I say, any and all advice would be very gratefully received. Thanks.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Chances are it is the element. Ferrari coffee have a good reputation and presumably it is Coffee Italia?


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Have you spilt any water on or into the machine ?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The fact that it trips without even being switched on makes it a possibility (probability) that it's not actually the element. The RCD effectively senses a current imbalance less coming back than goes out. If the element is not powered because it's not on, then really there is no way for power to be lost to earth and cause such an imbalance.

I can't remember with the Silvia, been a while since I have been inside one....*but a lot of coffee machines have power to certain circuits within the machine when the plug wall switch is on BUT the machine is switched off*....even those with mechanical switches (soft switches obviously require power). Which is why I always recommend to manufacturers, but am rarely listened to, that dual pole switches are fitted to a main power switch (even with soft switches fitted for power on), unfortunately a single pole switch meets the electrical regulations, but in my opinion the regulations are not fit for purpose in this area.

If it's a soft switch, or a single pole switch (that only switches off part of the circuit) then something in that circuit on the mains side is shorting/leaking to earth. It could be on the mains input point, or it could be somewhere else e.g. RF suppression circuit (the older Vivaldis were terrible for that, but they changed the circuit eventually), or low voltage transformer etc... You can verify this by simply disconnecting the heating element and with the machine switched off, plug it into the wall socket and turn the wall socket switch on...if it trips, you know for sure it's nothing to do with the element. Also don't forget to open the plug and have a look inside, a wire could have come loose or abraded, a floating copper hair could be shorting it out....etc. If it's one of those plug adaptors that clamps over a euro plug, perhaps that is faulty.

Get some detailed photos of the machine and inside, I might be able to indicate areas to check?

*At the end of the day though, if you don't feel confident to do any of this, send it back to the retailer and get them to fix it.....BUT, get video proof of what is happening e.g. plug in not switched on, switch on at plug, but not machine and RCD trips...all that on video makes it hard for them to say they cannot reproduce the fault.*

Next time, buy from a dealer where you have confidence, if they have a good reputation, perhaps they earned the right to your custom, even if it costs a tiny bit more. e.g. Under warranty you should always get warranties where the retailer ships it back at their expense and you don't pay carriage both ways, check as your dealer may have that in their terms and conditions, but may try to charge you!

Good luck.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Yep ^^^ about sums things up

To faultfind you need a good dollop of caution.

With the machine unplugged open her up until you can get at where the mains cable connects to the machine

disconnect the brown wire and cover the end in insulating tape.

reset trip, plug in again, switch on at wall. does it still trip ? if so....

unplug and repeat for the blue wire. Now does it trip ? If yes change the mains lead.

If no unplug and reconnect the brown wire, reset trip, plug in again, switch on at wall. does it trip now ?

If you are not happy to do this then let somebody who is test it for you.

Whilst not exhaustive, these tests will point us in the right direction I hope


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## langton82 (Apr 2, 2018)

Thanks so much everyone for your thoughts on this.

Here are some photos that might prove useful:

https://adobe.ly/2q6wsEa


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Hard to see but there appears to be some discolouration on the boiler heating element terminals, the rest is just out of shot. Try and turn it up the right way.


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## langton82 (Apr 2, 2018)

Okay, so if the brown wire (from the power supply - photo here: https://adobe.ly/2JjEfHx) is disconnected then the machine doesn't cause a trip. (It trips if the blue wire is disconnected but the brown one attached.)

Also, if I disconnect both wires from the boiler then it doesn't trip. Here's a photo showing both of the wires disconnected:

https://adobe.ly/2Jihtzq

There is a little bit of orange dust around those connections on the boiler, but not loads. Could this be enough to cause the issue? Worth giving it a clean? If so, what am I best using?


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Like a scene from lethal weapon


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

When enlarged it looks as if there is water oozing up the side of the heating element where the discolouration is . Shorting to earth ?


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

OK so issue is between live and earth.

Looking at this diagram:

https://shared-assets.adobe.com/link/e3f1732d-d189-461e-5e4a-fbc7f74e54e7/?file=IMG_8795.JPG

Are the incoming mains cable wires connected brown to cpu1 and blue to cpu2 ??

If so then the element is connected directly to mains with no switch in between so if you *UNPLUG MACHINE* disconnect the element and tape up the connecting wires then plug in and switch on.

My guess is it will not trip


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

They really should start using double pole switches on coffee machines.........I keep telling the manufacturers, but the EU electrical regs are against me.


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

Fortunately all commercial machines have DP switches. Most older models have multi-purpose heavy-duty rotary switches.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

It looks like there's part of the heating element that's broken off or is missing. It could just be shadows, but there's a black mouth shaped area around where the orange gunk is. I'd focus on the heating element as there's something not quite right there - signs of water leakage/rust deposits/orange crud.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

espressotechno said:


> Fortunately all commercial machines have DP switches. Most older models have multi-purpose heavy-duty rotary switches.


The commercial customers spend more so they don't want to kill them off


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

After trying the above test, assuming it does not trip the power.

UNPLUG THE MACHINE Wipe the wet / discoloured area with kitchen roll and dry the area ,check the nut holding the element to see IF it is loose and allowing water past the seal. IF it is slack /loose this may be why the water is shorting out the power. WHEN thoroughly dry, reconnect terminals and plug in DOES it trip the power ? If no probable cause found, If yes probable element caput.


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

Hairdryer very useful for drying out electrics quickly !


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## langton82 (Apr 2, 2018)

Thank you for all the really helpful replies.

You were right, it doesn't trip if the heating element is disconnected.

I'll have a go at cleaning it up, though it doesn't appear in the slightest bit wet. Is there any sense in me trying to unscrew it (if I can) in order to check inside?


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

NO you ill need to test it with a test meter set to ohm's ( resistance) This can be done with it in situ Do you know a friendly electrician or a friend with a test meter that could test it for you ?


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## langton82 (Apr 2, 2018)

Okay, so the heating element is giving a reading of 47 ohms. Is that good?!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

langton82 said:


> Okay, so the heating element is giving a reading of 47 ohms. Is that good?!


Not really, it's if it's leaking to earth. Set you meter to the most sensitive megohm setting you have and see if you get a reading when plaicing the probe on ONE of the heating element tabs and the other on the boiler. Power off of course or natural selection will be in full force.

Even then often a megger is required, to get a reading your meter may not be capable of doing it.


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## langton82 (Apr 2, 2018)

Apologies for the delay in updating.

So, as suspected, no leak was detected but it was just using a standard meter.

The question now is, do I order just the heating element (£50) or the entire boiler (£180)?

(Caffe Italia has now completely stopped responding to my emails.)


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

langton82 said:


> Apologies for the delay in updating.
> 
> So, as suspected, no leak was detected but it was just using a standard meter.
> 
> ...


Well just the element of course, if you are certain that is the culprit, it's not worth replacing the entire boiler?? Do yourself one favour, don't by from the same retailer again...they might be cheaper, but possibly not in the long run. Also with that attitude, they are not really deserving of anyone's business, just out of principle are they.


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