# Easy Beans ? - 1st Attempt



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

its looking like ill have a Vario on the way soon, so i need to get some beans on order tomorrow, i dont know what to choose though !

i need something that isnt fussy, something a newb to grinders can get dialled in reasonably easy, also how much should i order, would 1kg be overkil for someone who doesnt go through a lot of coffee, i was thinking 2 x 250g bags of something

at the moment it will be used to make americanos, and taste wise, i like the Illy served in Patisserie Valerie cafes, and probably the best coffee ive ever had was in Paris in Dalloyau, ive no idea what it was but it was strong/dark and full of flavour

i need to order these tomorrow so quick responses appreciated


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

My vote would be lusty glaze from hands on roasters. Really forgiving and would suit if you like a darker roast

Sent from my ICS Touchpad with Tapatalk


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I think that's a very good suggestion.

I tried all sorts of grinds with the Lusty. Every pour was different, but all delicious.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I don't find Lusty Glaze to be dark, but it is delicious and doesn't have any overly challenging acidity


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

I guess not dark as such, but darker than almost all the hasbean and square mile that I buy! I don't think I would want my coffee any darker than that.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Lusty is lovely, quite forgiving and good value


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## JohnnieWalker (Aug 24, 2011)

Yep, the lusty glaze is great, I preferred it over their north coast roast and haven't tried the black chough.

Of course, I personally love to use Costa Coffee beans, I find I get great results with my Gaggia Classic, I use grind setting 1 or 2 on my Baratza virtuoso.

---

I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=52.932678,-1.488571

Costa Coffee Beans, Ground Coffee & Syrups available at http://CostaShop.co.uk


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## MartinB (May 8, 2011)

BSCA #1 from Two Day Roasters is pretty damn good.

Got through 1kg of Black Chough over Christmas and I personally preffered it as filter coffee over Espresso. The smell of the beans was awesome!


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I tried some of the Brazilian Scaa stuff from Two Day this week. It's a bit different to most espressos. Very very earthy taste, almost dirty (not in a bad way), but possibly lacking in body.


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

I have been pleasantly surprised by the overall quality of Coffeebeanshop beans. They roast darker than Hasbean but don't kill the coffee as so many roasters do (although it's the first time I've tried them and maybe I'm just lucky!). I like Hasbean too but your description of your favourite Parisian coffee was not what Hasbean is all about. A Sumatra or Java or something like that is an easy bean to get balance out of.

I'm not an Illy fan, I've got to say, although I like their tins! When it comes to fresh beans, as you live in the UK and availability is superb, half a kilo should be more than enough.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

im not sure if the Illy they serve in Patisserie Valerie is the dark roast, at a guess it probably is but i dont know


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

How many different types of Illy are there now? Seriously, Illy is overpriced coffee served in nice tins. There are a lot of SO and blends out there which are far superior. If it's the type of coffee you like, maybe try an espresso blend, but I would also try some SO coffees because you can identify a preference of blends - majority Brazil or Indonesia or Africa.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

well on the overwhelming advice on here ive ordered some Lusty Glaze to get me going


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

brun said:


> well on the overwhelming advice on here ive ordered some Lusty Glaze to get me going


Me too









Al


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

You can go pretty fine with the grind for a slow dense pour and it doesn't come out bitter. Great stuff, just had a couple of caps made with it. I find a single gets a bit lost in the milk but with a double shot in there it's like toffee


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

Expobarista said:


> You can go pretty fine with the grind for a slow dense pour and it doesn't come out bitter. Great stuff, just had a couple of caps made with it. I find a single gets a bit lost in the milk but with a double shot in there it's like toffee


How much do you use in the dose? I'm having some trouble slowing the shot. I tried it in a pour over for the hell of it - pretty meh.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

About 15 or 16 grammes. 92 degrees C (or whatever the 92 degree on my PID equates to in reality)


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

my hands on wont arrive until monday i dont think, so im gonna have to pick up something tomorrow to tinker with

hopefully bold st coffee in liverpool will have something fresh i can buy, otherwise its costco/supermarket for now


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

A rich shot, 18g usually but 22g ristretto if I'm feeling like a treat.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

the lusty has arrived, made a decent americano with it last night but i thought it was a bit weak, so ive just had one with a double, 7oz cup, prob ratios 2oz espresso, 2oz water, 1oz milk, ish

i thought that tasted a bit sour, 2oz was 28s, what kind of times are you guys extracting it to, my machine had been on about 30 mins so should have been perfectly up to temp


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Sour? Are you sure your water was hot enough? I must admit that I never got any sour notes from this coffee at all. I dosed at about 14 or 15g, mid twenties pour.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

OK, let's try to diagnose it brun. Symptom are

(a) weak... diagnosis, a low quantity of solids in the cup

(b) sour... not enough solids extracted from the grinds you did use.

So the questions are

(i) how can you increase the quantity of solids in the cup.

(ii) how can you extract more from the grinds

Grinding finer is one possibility. Increasing temperature is another... if the temperature is low the colour of the crema will be yellowish. It should be a rich reddy brown with Lusty Glaze. How long the machine is on isn't the only factor that affects brew temperature. Try varying the duration of your pre-shot flush. This affects brew temperature.

Actually, I've never made an americano with it, so diluting with water may have something to do with it. Just a thought. (I don't like americanos!)


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

Pre shot flush ?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Brun, you've spent a fair bit of money on kit. Can I urge you to consider some form of training to make the most of it? I think there are probably quite a few things you could do differently that would improve your espresso, and whilst this free forum can help you immensely, you'll get there much quicker if someone teaches you.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

that grinder was money i had left over from xmas gifts, and from selling things i forgot i had, that kind of money i wont see again for a while, and the classic was also a xmas present i received, i doubt id have ever got it had i known i needed a grinder to go with it lol

any tips on sites i could read ?.....i can sit for hours reading forums and articles, once i get a 'bee in my bonnet' i can know a lot about something in a short space of time, prior to December id never heard of Gaggia, so i am learning, how much is barista training ?

i vaguely know of temperature surfing, are you suggesting what probably happened was my water temp came through too cold, ive thought about getting the machine up to steam temp in the past, then turning off the steam button, dispensing the steam out through the group head until it turns back to water, and then extracting


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Aah ok. Training doesn't have to be expensive but fot a free start try the videos on this website. http://www.metropoliscoffee.com/university/training/


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## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

For a good starting point I used the Happy Donkey Italian. Found them great for my first dial in cos I used so much up as wastage!

Cheap and you get plenty of them. They don't taste too bad too and looooads of crema. Once you have got your grinder at the right grind region for them you'll be a dab hand when it comes to more expensive beans









And for reference: 2 x 250g = £4.65 (plus postage)! Great price if there is a potential for high wastage!


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

As Mike said, it could be the hot water added for the Americano that is throwing things off. To eliminate this from your diagnosis, perhaps you could try tasting the plain espresso first.

Aiming for a 25-30 second pour will get you in the right ball park and from there you can adjust the parameters until it tastes right.

So, how does it taste - taste is probably the best diagnosis tool for making espresso? You found it tasted sour which suggests, as Mike said, that not enough of the solids have been extracted from the ground coffee i.e. it is under extracted. At the opposite end of the spectrum, over extracted coffee will taste bitter or dull and espresso that is extracted just right will taste sweet with crisp, balanced acidity.

Usually one would try to keep temperature consistent and alter the grind and dose to affect the taste in the cup. Unfortunately thermostatically controlled brew boilers tend to have a relatively large temperature swing so people often use temperature surfing as a means of returning to a consistent boiler temperature.

To adjust the extraction based upon what you are tasting, try grinding finer if it tastes overly acidic or sour and coarser if it tastes bitter.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

basically at the moment ive adjusted the grind to get me to about 27s for a 2oz double, but im still not 100% on when i should be stopping the shot, should i do it based on that time and that amount of liquid, or should i be watching for blonding ?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Stop it when it tastes good.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

brun said:


> basically at the moment ive adjusted the grind to get me to about 27s for a 2oz double, but im still not 100% on when i should be stopping the shot, should i do it based on that time and that amount of liquid, or should i be watching for blonding ?


To add to your confusion I personally would stop based on end beverage weight.

Once you have the grind right and have settled on a temperature surfing routine appropriate for your machine then take it into science/maths land

15g dose for a 25g extraction - if too sour try a 30g extraction - if too bitter try a 22g extraction. If neither taste good then look back at grind/dose to get where you want the taste to be

Weight allows you consistancy, repeatability....


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

so weigh what comes out, interesting, this is all getting crazy technical though and with it seems a super small window of the shot being right, how is it that cafes etc can get things right so regularly without all this tinkering, weighing, etc, is it cos the machines are that much better ?

i guess it doesnt help that im an americano drinker, i need to get myself onto espresso


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

A good americano will only come from a good espresso. You need to obsess about the quality of the espresso.

The point is once you have fixed the dose, grind, your tamping pressure, technique, the temperature surfing routine, and noted the length of time it took to get the output weight/taste you want...then you can repeat all day long.....slight tweeks to grind maybe needed day to day as a home-user. Shops will tweak grind throughout the day based on taste etc

Good shops probably spend a good 30 minutes each day getting everything dialled in before start of shift - you just dont see that as a customer.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

and then when i try a different bean, do it all again lol


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Or different batch of the same beans ...welcome to coffee! No one ever said it was gonna be easy (at first)

Takes me 4-5 shots to dial in usually

Here is how I dialled Lusty in for my palate :

15g @ 93c producing 23g in 27 seconds = too bitter

16g @92c producing 23g in 25 seconds = too bitter (16g too big a dose puck cracked)

amended grind finer

15.5g @92c producing 22g in 30 seconds = more like it. Spicy full bodied chocolate, still the bitterness dominates my sensitive post-cold-yay-i-can-taste-again palate (note this would be perfect for a cappa base)

15.7g @92c producing 21.8g in 32 seconds = SPOT ON. All the spice, all the choc and some fruitiness in there.

Bare in mind I have pulled 1000+ shots on my machine


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

brun said:


> how is it that cafes etc can get things right so regularly without all this tinkering, weighing, etc, is it cos the machines are that much better ?


Equipment does have a fair bit to do with it... commercial machines are more able to make better espresso than small domestic ones. But domestic baristas can overcome those limitations by building up barista skills.

Despite their equipment, the vast majority of cafes unfortunately don't get it right and sell poor espresso. The good coffeeshops, with well trained baristas, do though, and they only manage that because they get to a point where all this seemingly technical stuff is actually fairly simple. As Gary says, as a customer you don't see the constant recalibration that the good baristas undertake throughout the day. You can get to that point too... it's just a case of continuous learning. That's where this forum comes in







(And hopefully some training)

But don't feel that you need to get all techy, brun. Some people like it, some don't. It all comes down to how far you want to take your search for the perfect espresso


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

thanks for all the help on here, id still be on pre ground without you guys and probably so frustrated that i couldnt get a decent shot id have considered selling up, but thats not an option, im here to stay and here to learn, ill get it one day, soon hopefully


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Very happy to hear that


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## truecksuk (Sep 22, 2011)

This is a very technical thread - but very intriguing! I never knew the art of espresso was so indepth!

Once you have these barista skills down to a tee - can you ever still go wrong? It seems there are so many variables! roast, grind, weights, tempratures! heavens..!

1 question: am I correct in saying that 'getting the grind right' means pouring the shot in a certain time frame... such as 25 secs? or is it purely taste?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

truecksuk said:


> This is a very technical thread - but very intriguing! I never knew the art of espresso was so indepth!
> 
> Once you have these barista skills down to a tee - can you ever still go wrong? It seems there are so many variables! roast, grind, weights, tempratures! heavens..!
> 
> 1 question: am I correct in saying that 'getting the grind right' means pouring the shot in a certain time frame... such as 25 secs? or is it purely taste?


Yeah, no matter how good you are you can still pull a bad shot. But less often.

Getting it right is all about taste, which comes down to 'extraction', which basically means the way the coffee particles are washed off the grinds, and how much is washed off. Parameters such as dose weight, shot time, beverage weight/volume etc... they're just reference points used to help communicate, adjust and repeat the shot so that you control it rather than it controlling you.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

truecksuk said:


> This is a very technical thread - but very intriguing! I never knew the art of espresso was so indepth!
> 
> Once you have these barista skills down to a tee - can you ever still go wrong? It seems there are so many variables! roast, grind, weights, tempratures! heavens..!
> 
> 1 question: am I correct in saying that 'getting the grind right' means pouring the shot in a certain time frame... such as 25 secs? or is it purely taste?


Can you ever go wrong - Yep!

Getting the grind right - On my naked portafilter - about 8 seconds before first drops appear, then a nice ''rat's tail'' pour producing roughly what im after in roughly the time im after. I have a Mazzer which after months of use seems to now have a very narrow band covering the 'sweet spot' of 25-30 seconds. Literally 90% of beans work in this band...which is about 0.5cm on the collar adjustment. Most tweeks are literally 1-2mm


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

Just made a good double, weighed it but can't quite remember lol, think it was 30g, the earlier shot was sour and iirc was about 22g, think it was 26-27s, think I've been cuttin off the extraction too soon on my earlier shots


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

So, actually, should I go a click finer or just extract long


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Try one, then go back and try the other straight afterwards (making sure to do a slight grinder purge between adjustments).

Running it longer will tend to dilute the espresso more, because most of the solids are extracted from the grinds in the first 20 secs. It may increase bitterness, and with the Classic may also increase sourness as the brew water gets cooler throughout the shot. I'm generally favouring 23-24 sec shots with the classic at the moment.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

ah thats a thought yea, keep the time down to keep the temp hot, ill try a click finer and see what its like


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

It depends upon the type of coffee - some beans react better to a finer grind and longer extraction time e.g. 32 seconds for San Jose red bourbon (an absolutely amazing coffee by the way!). Other coffees will react better to a coarser grind and shorter extraction time e.g the Bolivian Machamara I am using at the moment tends to like 26-27 seconds. This all depends upon how dense the coffee bean is and how readily it yields it's solids.

As Mike said, taste it and see whether you like it and if not, change the parameters and try again.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

thanks, at least i know a little better now, i can let it go past 30s and see what happens


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm struggling to get the Lusty Glaze ratios correct. If I grind fine then it's almost choking and if I unwind the wormscrew by as little as a quarter of a turn I'm getting 2oz in less than 15 seconds. I've tried all doses and tamps and even *garydyke1*'s 15.7g but I've had to throw the lot away - even the long drinks. I was doing so well......

Al


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

From memory a quarter of a turn is a big deal on the MC2...although not choker to gusher....are you sure you are consistant in your technique?

Post a vid maybe for analysis


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> From memory a quarter of a turn is a big deal on the MC2...although not choker to gusher....are you sure you are consistant in your technique?


Technique once I got the MC2 in the general area was to dose 15.7g getting rid of at least 2oz grinds between doses. Then it was fill a glass and transfer to basket, WDT to spread grounds and then a small tap on the counter to settle. Levelling tamp using tamper weight only then a light tamp with twist to polish. Then it's pull the shot following *maarten_booij*'s technique  seen here. Then it's same technique with a harder tamp each time (about 3 or 4 times).



garydyke1 said:


> Post a vid maybe for analysis


Unfortunately not possible until I learn how to do it









Al


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

When you say choker what exactly do you mean i.e. how long before the espresso starts to drip from the spouts? This should probably be in the region of 5-8 seconds depending upon the brew ratio you are aiming for.


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

What I mean by a choker is basically half a dozen drops coming out of the naked portafilter over a period of 20-25 seconds. The difficulty I have is that when I do get a decent flow after 5-8 seconds I usually end up with only half a ristretto.

Al


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Sorry to ask another question







but what do you mean by ristretto? How much does the resulting shot weigh?

I would class anything where the dose of ground coffee weighs more than 60% of the weight of the resulting shot as a ristretto, 40% - 60% as an espresso normale and less than 40% as a lungo.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

They haven't been as easy as I'd hoped but its still very early and I'm a total newb, just pulled 2 with bold st house blend espresso and both were excellent, quite impressed with em


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

jimbow said:


> Sorry to ask another question
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I didn't actually weigh the results but if I can get 1fl oz from 15g+ then I'm doing well.

My mind was elsewhere today but I'll get my act together for tomorrow. Change of beans put me off - thought I would use the same setting and assumed it would be close enough for minor adjustments









Al


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

onemac said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't actually weigh the results but if I can get 1fl oz from 15g+ then I'm doing well.
> 
> My mind was elsewhere today but I'll get my act together for tomorrow. Change of beans put me off - thought I would use the same setting and assumed it would be close enough for minor adjustments
> 
> ...


23g (1fluid oz) out from 15g in ...is about right (for my palate)


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

So you like a single from 15g ?


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

This is one I pulled but I can't remember how it tasted lol


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)




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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

brun said:


> So you like a single from 15g ?


1oz is not innately a single - it all depends on the context. In southern Italy, a double could easily be less than 1oz. In some places, a double will be over 2oz. It's all ambiguous terminology


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

brun said:


> So you like a single from 15g ?


Whether the drink is a 'single' or a 'double' is dependent upon the quantity of ground coffee used used to produce it. The quantity of liquid beverage produced (usually measured as a ratio of the quantity of grounds) dictates whether it is a ristretto, normale or lungo.

An espresso that used grounds weighing between 40-60% the weight of the produced liquid beverage would be usually be considered a normale e.g. 30g of liquid espresso brewed from 15g of espresso. Of course this beverage may also include a certain amount of crema and so may be more than 30ml in volume.


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