# Any Cherub/Heavenly owners out there?



## Pan (Oct 20, 2010)

OK, obviously no Cherub/heavenly owners out there (that want to post an opinion ), so I've changed title and updated it after another mind-boggling weekend of reading reviews, machine specs, grind results, and so much more.

I must have had about a dozen tabs on machines open at any one time....

So....in the course of the last 2 weeks since I decided I wanted to move away from my trusty cafetiere plunger and the same bean blend after 20 years, I've progressed through the following buying decisions.

1. Rancilio Silvia

This was my initial choice after reading lots of user reviews, watching the videos, and considering it was a reasonable price point. However, do I really want to spend time temperature surfing and modifying the machine to add PID controllers? No, I don't think so, so this was relegated and I moved on to my next buying decision.

2. Fracino Cherub

This was a bit more like it. Good copy of the E61 group, an HX machine so the wife and son can have Cappucinos and hot water on demand for Tea, with no lag time for pulling normal shots at the same time. Then I realised that I didn't fancy the pre-flushing routine to cool the grouphead, and my sleepy son at 5.55am would never manage this either. Additionally, the 2850W of heating power - whilst producing steam and hot water on demand - is a bit of a large power draw. Constantly on is not always the best situation for component longevity, and a few reviews (and vids) of the perhaps erratic heat cycling changed my mind too. Apparantly customer service on these is superb, but there are still some build quality questions, so another relegation and on to the next choice.

3. Expobar Office Leva Dual Boiler (Brewtus III)

A proper dual boiler machine with all the advantages of the HX machine above and seemingly none of the disadvantages. Seems amazing that a machine with only around 40% of the water heating capacity of the Cherub can do a better job, but perhaps that's down to fundamental design differences.

Much lower power draw too, which is always a plus, although on the downside you can't turn one of the boilers off. Electronic temperature controllable that's easily variable included too, which is a plus, and no temperature surfing or cooling shots for the grouphead.

I liked this one. But it may also have been relegated......

4. La Spaziale S1 Vivaldi Mini

This is where I am now.

Yes I know, a huge step change in machine and price point from the Silvia I was at just 1 week ago, but this one might just have everything I want. Great reviews and great brews apparantly, from reading the reviews. Slightly larger footprint but perhaps easier to accomodate as it seems to be wider rather than deeper, and may have a more integrated fit into a domestic kitchen.

One major plus point for Son & Wife who would never RTFM is simple automatic push button operation. Whilst I would have no problem using the brew lever on the Expobar, I can easily see them getting this wrong. Another plus point is that one of the boilers can be turned off and on as required, so a bit of energy saving there, which is nice. I like the lever for steam rather than the rotary knob, and it has a very accessible, easy-to-fill water tank. Simple re-programming for water temperature changes. So much good stuff and very little not to like about this machine it seems.

The only oddity (maybe not even a downside? - over to you chaps) is the 53mm portafilter size. Smaller but deeper baskets just as good? Comments please.

So thats where I am on a machine as of now, and I'd welcome any and all comments please.

As for grinders? Well don't get me started on that! Even harder decisons to make I think.

Again, after reading copious reviews and good/bad stories I really like the Eureka Mignon grinder except for one thing. It apparently sprays grounds all over the place, which I would hate.

So I think I'm looking for a good small doser grinder again.

Over to you again.......

Peter


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## Pan (Oct 20, 2010)

Bump after updating


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## liquidmonkey2000 (Oct 4, 2010)

All I can say is that temp surfing is not that onerous a task, in fact for me it is part of the ritual. Currently I am off the opinion that adding a PID is OTT for home use - but give me time and I will have probably talked myself into it. I primarily use mine for making espresso and only make milk based drinks infrequently, so waiting for the boiler to reach steam temp is not that much of an issue for me. So the Silvia suits my needs well. However, if you have the budget, the space and an indulgent spouse why not go for something bigger and better.

As for the grinder the Eureka Mignon looks nice, gets good reviews and the problem with the grounds going all other place could possibly be solved with one of these. Alternatively perhaps the Mazzer Mini Electronic Type A is a better solution (budget permitting) than going down the doser route for home use.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Ok.

The thing with dual boilers which don't have e61 groupheads is IIRC instead of a cooling flush, some of them need a warming flush?

http://www.home-barista.com/advice/la-spaziale-vivaldi-ii-vs-vibiemme-double-domo-pid-t12972.html

TBH really, the cooling flush isn't an issue at all, takes max, 5-10 seconds and when it's done, you know the temperature at the brewhead will be stable. It is one of the advantages of the e61 group that it keeps so much heat in the grouphead consistently, but the spaziale is a fantastic machine also. 53mm vs a shorter basket in 58mm, no odds really. IMHO totally insignificant in choosing a machine.

Copies of the e61 grouphead would not appeal to me because of the ease of getting normal e61 parts, not sure what happens with other manufacturer replicas.

Why a dual boiler? I think greater thermal mass is better than two smaller boilers, but then again, I guess most of the water inside the izzos boiler is constantly at steam temperature anyway. I guess it may be nice to have two separate boilers, but I'm really not sure how much odds it'd make.

Big thing is, what do you mainly drink? If it's milk drinks, it's either a dual boiler or hx machine. If it's espresso, you would be just as well off with a single boiler.

One other thing to consider, a good grinder doesn't need anything like a funnel or cup to deposit most of the grounds in the portafilter. With the mazzer mini I had, with a polystyrene half cup and a needle to do WDT it was always a fricking pain. A good grinder has no clumps, the grinds are fluffy, distributed perfectly, no static and you always get an excellent result in the cup. This is what the compak k10 conical is for me.

Ok, it's not a robur, but it's close enough for me. Good small doser grinders IMHO don't really exist, I think the smallest big conical grinder i'm aware of is the elektra nino. But if it's a fluffy, consistent grind you're after, my list would be the robur, elektra nino, mahlkonig k30 or the compak k10. They are big machines though. However, you could say the mazzer super jolly could get close enough and it's not quite as big (2nd in in the 2nd pic).

I don't see any problems with dosers, so you flick the handle a few times, big deal. If it means you get any clumps broken down, it saves lots of time with silly needles and the WDT.

http://www.elektrasrl.com/nino.php


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Couple of videos, robur:






Now, you may think, big deal, one is slightly clumpier than the other. In the cup that makes a helluva lot of difference. One other fun thing, if you get a bottomless portafilter, I found it very difficult to stop it from spraying everywhere with the mini, with the compak k10, it's very difficult to get it wrong.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Oooo another Super Jolly and a caimano too:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/COMMERCIAL-COFFEE-BEAN-GRINDER-/160497613876?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item255e673c34

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ANFIM-CAIMANO-COFFEE-EXPRESSO-GRINDER-EXCELLENT-/370448848305?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item564078d5b1


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Amazing how the Mini-e seems to attract reviews at both end of the spectrum - from being dismissed as a useless clumper to being lauded as probably the best grinder for domestic use!

One thing that did amaze me, on a recent visit to Venice and the Veneto area, was just how ubiquitous the Mini-e's are in the coffee bars around there. Virtually every bar had one as a secondary grinder - either for de-caf or 'guest' coffees, and in one place (in Treviso I think) there was a bank of four of them. And yes, they were Mini's, not larger machines.

Sorry, I know this is now going somewhat off-topic.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

vintagecigarman said:


> Amazing how the Mini-e seems to attract reviews at both end of the spectrum - from being dismissed as a useless clumper to being lauded as probably the best grinder for domestic use!
> 
> One thing that did amaze me, on a recent visit to Venice and the Veneto area, was just how ubiquitous the Mini-e's are in the coffee bars around there. Virtually every bar had one as a secondary grinder - either for de-caf or 'guest' coffees, and in one place (in Treviso I think) there was a bank of four of them. And yes, they were Mini's, not larger machines.
> 
> Sorry, I know this is now going somewhat off-topic.


They may be rated in domestic use, but I've never seen anything smaller than a super jolly in a restaurant/cafe. Mini just couldn't cope with the throughput imo. It was sloooooww.


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## liquidmonkey2000 (Oct 4, 2010)

> Mini just couldn't cope with the throughput imo. It was sloooooww.


What you have to remember is that Italians are more patient.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

liquidmonkey2000 said:


> What you have to remember is that Italians are more patient.


Not from my experience.


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## liquidmonkey2000 (Oct 4, 2010)

Perhaps not when driving admittedly but in culinary matters they definitely are. It is not by chance that the "slow food" movement started in Italy.


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## Pan (Oct 20, 2010)

Not a problem, still on topic I think, and the more opinions the better for me! And thanks for the info supplied so far, most useful.

Another (potentially) leading question - any strong views on the Compak K3? I quite like the doser model and it seems to have been well received too. That Robur look amazing, but may be toooo far out of the price range.

As for the question on what drinks, the answer is a mixed bag.

Son will get up and most probably pull a Cappucino first, then probably a double shot before he leaves the house. He's half Italian (wife side) and has this thing about only having 'milky' coffee for breakfast, anytime after that it will be shots. I'll get up next and probably have a few double shots for breakfast, then alternate between shots and whites throughout the day. Wife will be up next and have 2 mugs of Tea for breakfast, then Cappucinos through the day. Daughter loves lots of creamy hot chocolate.

We also get visitors and I invariably end up making a Cafetiere for them, but given the choice and knowing them well, then I expect far more shots to be pulled.

Reading the above, it looks like it will almost be used as a universal hot beverage centre...

Peter


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Pan said:


> Not a problem, still on topic I think, and the more opinions the better for me! And thanks for the info supplied so far, most useful.
> 
> Another (potentially) leading question - any strong views on the Compak K3? I quite like the doser model and it seems to have been well received too. That Robur look amazing, but may be toooo far out of the price range.
> 
> ...


Compak K3 is still a bit small for my taste, Compak K6? They're both not bad though. But I would probably take that super jolly linked.

Roburs are bleeding expensive, but who knows, you may get lucky and spot one on the bay.

Awesome, looks like you may be better off with a hot water tap then and probably a fairly large boiler. Spaziale/izzos may do well in that field.

One thing to bear in mind, I get ~500ml out of the hot water tap on the alex before it has to refill and takes maybe a few mins to get back up to temp.

Thing is, still, I'm not sure I'd get one with a hot water tap, you are honestly better off most the time using a kettle as it's more hassle to descale/fill up the tank regularly, however, it can also be convenient saving the wait for a kettle to boil.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Use of Mini-e in Veneto could be a geographic issue - given that Mazzer are located in the Veneto, perhaps they have had reps out ensuring product placement?

I don't understand how a Super Jolly can be that much faster than a Mini-e, given that they have the same diameter burrs rotating at the same speed. I'd be grateful if you can explain.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

vintagecigarman said:


> Use of Mini-e in Veneto could be a geographic issue - given that Mazzer are located in the Veneto, perhaps they have had reps out ensuring product placement?
> 
> I don't understand how a Super Jolly can be that much faster than a Mini-e, given that they have the same diameter burrs rotating at the same speed. I'd be grateful if you can explain.


http://www.home-barista.com/grinders/mazzer-mini-electronic-grind-quality-vs-super-jolly-t5566.html


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Bear in mind also, the compak k10 has 68mm burrs rotating at 300rpm as opposed to the 1400rpm of the mini e. It'll still be massively faster, like the robur. Not just about burr width, more about the grinding path the beans take


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Yeah, I can see the difference between a K10 and a Mini-e as you're talking about fundamental design differences. I can also accept that there is empirical evidence that SJ's grind faster (- I'd never doubted that) - but I still don't know WHY? The only potential solution to the conundrum is the suggestion in the HB thread that it's to do with grinding beans slowing down the motor, and the higher powered SJ motor being slowed down less. I don't know how much credence to attach to that.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

vintagecigarman said:


> Yeah, I can see the difference between a K10 and a Mini-e as you're talking about fundamental design differences. I can also accept that there is empirical evidence that SJ's grind faster (- I'd never doubted that) - but I still don't know WHY? The only potential solution to the conundrum is the suggestion in the HB thread that it's to do with grinding beans slowing down the motor, and the higher powered SJ motor being slowed down less. I don't know how much credence to attach to that.


They've got two different burr sets. I think in there they show how ever so slightly different they are and my guess is that changes the grinding path and hence the speed at which it grinds. Could also be the burr chamber.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

I think that probably explains it.

The Mini-e's that we saw in use in Italy were used as secondary grinders. Roburs or SJ's were de rigeur as the main grinders. That said, the baristas that I spoke to (or rather my wife did -as she's the one with the fluent Italian) were all enthusiastic about the Mini-e's, and loved the grind-on-demand. I guess that there could be a good market for electronic Roburs coming. ;>)))


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Urrrr, http://www.espressoparts.com/MAZZER_ROBUR_E


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Yeah, I knew about these! Would love one, only two problems: price and size. I don't think my wife would appreciate something 26" high stuck on one of our work-tops - it would be taller than she is. ;>)))

I'll just have to be content with smaller grinders!


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

....and talking of electronic roburs...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/mazzer-robur-electronic-brand-new-warranty-/200534882639?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item2eb0cf794f


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

vintagecigarman said:


> ....and talking of electronic roburs...
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/mazzer-robur-electronic-brand-new-warranty-/200534882639?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item2eb0cf794f


Hmm... Yes, if I had £1.5k to spare for another grinder, I'd probably have bought a kvdw or synesso first


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