# Which machine?



## Portishead (Jul 16, 2013)

Here's my situation.

I am mainly an espresso and americano drinker. My OH occasionally likes a flat white or latte [2-3 per week, so very low use].

I wouldn't consider myself a big user, probably 2-3 cups a day - maybe more if we have friends around.

At the moment, my espressos are shop bought, so I am expecting a fairly brutal learning curve so need something that won't be too punishing or making me wish I hadn't bothered.

But at the same time, I don't want a machine I will outgrow within 12 months.

Build quality is important [silvia?] but I don't want to pay for a boiler I'm never going to use to capacity.

Then again, when we do have friends around, I don't want a small boiler that won't cater for us all at the same time [Gaggia Classic?]

Budget is £500/$800 maximum - and, of course, a grinder, but that's a whole other conversation...

Guys - i'd REALLY welcome your input and thoughts.

Thanks!

Chris


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## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

Hi Portishead, and welcome to the forum.

You don't indicate if you want new or second hand, but second hand obviously gives you far more scope. From what you say, I reckon your best bet is probably an HX machine, and it just so happens someone on the forum is selling one bang on your budget, and it's a well regarded machine:

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?11181-Nuova-Simonelli-Oscar


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

It sounds like you pretty much got your requirements nailed... The hardest part is the future-proofing. 12 months is a long time especially if you get 'in' to coffee.

I went from a Gaggia Baby to my current machine, and having just won the raffle for a Bezzera Strega I might keep the best of the machines or get rid of them both and aim higher - it's addictive!

Are you adverse to going second-hand?

I would say a a used cherub would fit the bill nicely, and stave off upgraditis for a little while!


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

Hi Portishead. It's a difficult decision, isn't it. A Silvia would suit your daily and weekly requirements for making one or two drinks at a sitting with or without milk steaming. Unfortunately, you'll find it wanting when you need to cater to more people. Once you are having to do boiler refills for more milk steaming and cooling back down for repeat espresso requests, things start to take a very long time, and espresso quality suffers when the boiler is still too hot from milk steaming. Really, the machine takes about half an hour at least to cool back down to espresso brewing temperature after milk steaming, even with cold flushing, due to the mass of metal in the boiler/group casting. You could consider buying a separate stove-top steamer for infrequent milk demands, though personally I have no experience with them so can't comment.

So otherwise if you want to be able to serve in a reasonable time to guests, you are looking at an HX or double-boiler machine, realistically. Welcome to the bottomless pit of speciality coffee


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Hi Chris,

As MarkyP suggests, a fracino cherub/heavenly is a good machine for the money, and will give superior shots, temp stability, milk frothing over a classic or silvia.

These can be picked up for about £600 new, or £350-£450 second hand.

I currently have a fracino heavenly (basically the same machine) which was a decent step up from my gaggia classic.

In my opinion, there is no better value HX machine in this price range.

The more expensive HX machines (e.g. Rocket, Expobar, Bezzera, ECM, Izzo etc.) will give you more "bling", but shot quality will not be vastly better.

Certainly for £400 you can't go far wrong here.

Grinder is equally (if not more) important consideration

Hope that helps

Regards


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I think a cherub or heavenly would be good choices. I think the Silvia would frustrate you slightly when steaming milk. I've got a nuova simonelli Oscar which doesn't have a water spout so if you went for that machine you'd need a kettle for your Americanos. But it is a cracking little machine albeit in a plastic casing.

I went for the machine that produced the best espresso and as I don't drink Americano it was the right choice for me and it fits in to the kitchen nicely.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Portishead, there is a machine for sale on the forum which might tick all your boxes bar one. the Nuuvo Oscar Simonelli that Geordie Barista has for sale is a true HX machine that makes a wonderful cuppa. It has 2 potential pitfalls for some people. Firstly, it is made of ABS plastic and secondly, it does not have a water outlet. For me, that would not be an issue. I like ABS and the amount of water I dispense through the water tap is negligible. It will murder a Cherub and everything else you can find at that price point.

They are not popular on this forum, but that is mainly because for one reason or another, people have always been pointed by members to machines like the Cherub. His machine in my view, and he will not thank me for saying it, is a tad overpriced, but, it is also just a couple of weeks old. Where can you get another one like that?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I thought the heavenly/Cherub were not actually HX but a vague fracino interpretation using a thermosyphon, hence the price point.


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I can negotiate a tad


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> It will murder a Cherub ...


Really? How's that?


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## Portishead (Jul 16, 2013)

Wow, thanks for all the excellent replies.

It sounds like the Silvia will be great 95% of the time [when it's just me brewing, working from home] but won't respond well to multiple orders - and by that I mean 3-4-5 drinks at a go for dinner parties.

And that totally knocks the Gaggia out of the ring, as I thought.

I had VERY briefly flirted with a Fracino Cherub but cringed at the outlay [hey, my OH can only tolerate so much of my obsessive hobbies] - but a well-loved used machine would be perfect.

As for the Nuuvo Oscar Simonelli...I have a problem with ABS. Yeah, yeah, I know. But I like the feel and weight of metal.

Do good used Cherubs come up for sale very often?

Thanks again, everyone.

Chris


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Because it is in a different class to the Cherub. because it is not popular on this forum does not mean it is crap painty! It is a true HX machine, not a hybrid, and if you had ever had a shot pulled from one, then you would not have asked that question openly!


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

Heavenlys come up more often than Cherubs on eBay. They have a larger water reservoir but other than that are the same so it's just down to looks.


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

The oscar isn't for everyone, don't rule out the heavenly if you can get one used as far as I'm aware they are also good machines. As you can see everyone has an opinion 'can murder' 'really how's that' I personally am not a fan of the La spaziale s1 simply down to the size of the baskets.

I think you won't go far wrong with the cherub and yes judging by your requirements a Gaggia or Silvia probably isn't for you, however if you learn to like black plastic give me a shout as I personally believe it to be the best machine at it's price point and that's not just because I'm trying to sell it. Keep an eye on ebay for the cherub or heavenly and just be sure to ask the right questions of the seller to try as best you can to avoid buying a machine that has been run into the ground.


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Because it is in a different class to the Cherub. because it is not popular on this forum does not mean it is crap painty!


Yup, I've only ever had good things to say about Oscar on here and always liked the look of it since the guy on TMC bought one.



> It is a true HX machine, not a hybrid, and if you had ever had a shot pulled from one, then you would not have asked that question openly!


So you are saying temperature stability on Oscar is better than the Fracinos?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

painty, I am saying that the Oscar is an HX machine, and the Cherub family is not.


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

painty said:


> So you are saying temperature stability on Oscar is better than the Fracinos?


a 2 second flush is required if returning to the machine after a long period and I've only tried 5 doubles in a row so can't say beyond that but it was stable.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> I thought the heavenly/Cherub were not actually HX but a vague fracino interpretation using a thermosyphon, hence the price point.


As far as I understand it, the Cherub uses an open thermosyphon system, which is not a 'vague interpretation' of an HX, but a different form of HX with perfectly legitimate engineering credentials and precedence. In simple terms (and please correct me if I'm wrong), in an open thermosystem passes water from the boiler through the heat exchanger (the thermosyphon using basic convection principles - hot water rises, cold water sinks - to direct the flow of water to maintain temperature), in a conventional HX the water in the heat exchanger heats the boiler water but does not actually make contact with it. Perhaps someone with better engineering knowledge than myself can explain the advantages of each system.

I have no particular interest in defending one machine against another, but I am interested in why you say the a Simonelli will 'murder a Cherub and everything else you can find at that price point'. What form does this murder take?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rolo, the Fracino family are not an HX machine, end of......the Oscars that I have tried produce a memorable shot. The Cherubs I ave tried do not.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Both Oscar and the francino will perform better than a Silvia, for all the reasons mentioned, convenience of not making lots of milk based drinks and temp stability . It's cost versus value . I Have a Silvia ,and as a new machine it's over priced . Second hand it's better value . There is some really great feedback on the Oscar from people whose opinions value and trust on here, reading that it looks like a great machine. Just lacking in shiny !

If you still want a silvia after all that ,then I will be putting mine up for sale this week, be warned though the search for god like espresso ,can lead many a soul down the road of upgradeitis. Just look at me and Geordie lad !


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> Rolo, the Fracino family are not an HX machine, end of......the Oscars that I have tried produce a memorable shot. The Cherubs I ave tried do not.


Let's not argue over nomenclature (they certainly use a different system - it doesn't really bother me what you call it) what is important is whether it is better or worse.

Are you saying the temperature stability is inferior on the Fracinos? If not, what makes them inferior? Honestly, I have no axe to grind here, I am just curious as to what the issue is here.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rolo, I do not think I have made any claims over temperature stability. I said, in my view, that the Cherub is not as good as the Oscar. I detest Fracino for a host of reasons. Undoubtedly, they bring a Cherub to the market, being a machine that packs a punch, but that depends on where you buy it from. is it a good value machine at £850 from John Lewis or a better value machine at under £650 from an online retailer? How would you feel if you had bought yours at John Lewis, only to find your neighbour had bought online? The Cherub is shiny, has a big boiler and can be bought at an attractive price. if those things impress you, then buy one. if pedigree on the other hand, counts for anything, then look elsewhere


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Just out of interest I wonder if anyone has tried to get John Lewis to price match any of the online retailers on Cherub. I don' t want to buy one , I'm waiting for my Cherub with a stick to come .


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I have owned both the heavenly and the Oscar, they both produced pretty similar shots so the argument here is whether you want to pay an extra 100 plus for a hot water wand. Both machines are fairly stable temperature wise, I believe the fracinos will recover quicker due the bigger wattage element, however in the home environment there is not a whole lot in it. At the new price, I think the Oscar edges this little battle, it is much more compact, over £100 cheaper and will produce a shot of coffee of the same if not better quality than the fracinos.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> I have owned both the heavenly and the Oscar, they both produced pretty similar shots so the argument here is whether you want to pay an extra 100 plus for a hot water wand. Both machines are fairly stable temperature wise, I believe the fracinos will recover quicker due the bigger wattage element, however in the home environment there is not a whole lot in it. At the new price, I think the Oscar edges this little battle, it is much more compact, over £100 cheaper and will produce a shot of coffee of the same if not better quality than the fracinos.


To be fair Dave , apart from a speedster or a slayer, is there any machine you haven't had at some point


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

That's what I like about helping with advice is that I talk from experience over it being my pride and joy and having a sentimental attachment to it. I haven't used a fair few machines that are out there, but I have used a lot of them.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Yep agree , it is what makes advice on here so valuable . Your like Which! Plus if they sold the slayer over here I'm sure you have got your hands on one ,


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

So, Portishead - have you made your mind up yet?

Or have we scared you off? lol


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

A very interesting debate. I'm tempted by the Oscar purely due to size (and performance) but need to figure out if I can get over the looks.


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## Portishead (Jul 16, 2013)

I'm hanging in there...

I'd be more than happy with a cherished used Cherub/Heavenly by the sounds of it.

The only trouble is...I just measured the footprint on the work surface this thing will occupy and the 490mm depth needed will be a touch too much. I mean, yes, it would fit - but for 2-3 cups a day that's a LOT of real estate to take up.

Any other - smaller - suggestions to a Cherub/Heavenly?

Chris


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

Portishead said:


> I'm hanging in there...
> 
> I'd be more than happy with a cherished used Cherub/Heavenly by the sounds of it.
> 
> ...


I think the Oscar is far smaller.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Portishead said:


> I'm hanging in there...
> 
> I'd be more than happy with a cherished used Cherub/Heavenly by the sounds of it.
> 
> ...


Other than the Oscar, there are a couple of relatively unknown quickmill machines (checkout bellabarista site).

There is the Fracino Piccino too (again a bit unknown).

Or you could go for a small lever?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

There doesn't seem to be many quickmill owners on here . Any reason why ? Small lever, now you have opened up a whole can of worms ....


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> There doesn't seem to be many quickmill owners on here . Any reason why ? Small lever, now you have opened up a whole can of worms ....


haha









Quickmill - dunno, they are pretty well thought of across the pond aren't they?

p.s. I always thought that Silvano looked really dinky


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## Portishead (Jul 16, 2013)

I guess the other question is are there any good physical [non-online] retailers in the South West of the UK where you can try these machines out and get hands on?


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

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Portishead said:


> I guess the other question is are there any good physical [non-online] retailers in the South West of the UK where you can try these machines out and get hands on?


bellabarista is the only proper place i can think of (but they don't do fracino).

not south west though...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Perhaps narrow down to a machine and see if there are any helpful forum members who might let you visit . I was looking enough up north to have TSK who spent the morning with me when I was considering my next machine . Us northerners are a helpful bunch though


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Got this form google , no idea who they are etc,but they sell heavenly and cherubs

http://www.thecoffeemansouthwest.co.uk/


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## Spukey (Nov 4, 2012)

Portishead said:


> I'm hanging in there...
> 
> I'd be more than happy with a cherished used Cherub/Heavenly by the sounds of it.
> 
> ...


I used to have this size worry when i first started, but realistically if the machine you want was not as deep would your really use the space infront of it for anything else. I would just worry about height and width.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

that's a really great was of putting it spukey.


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

I sell a lot of Cherubs and Piccinos and I can honestly say that I haven't had any customers that haven't been delighted with either machine! Your CURRENT requirements would lean more towards a Piccino but as others have already said, to 'futureproof' your purchase you would be better off with a Cherub. The Cherub is preferable over a Heavenly at the moment due to it having had a number of upgrades that the Heavenly hasn't had. I can do you a Cherub for £645 or a Piccino for £550 - both built to order and delivered direct from Fracino.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Wow the twists and turns, you really need to see some of these in action, I hate to throw another option out there but the vibbieme domobar single boiler is about the best single boiler non hx machine out there, and does not suffer from the small boiler syndrome of the rancilio silvia, lovely small footprint and super shiny


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

coffeebean said:


> The Cherub is preferable over a Heavenly at the moment due to it having had a number of upgrades that the Heavenly hasn't had.


Could you tell us what the detail changes are, coffeebean? That would be interesting to know.


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## Spukey (Nov 4, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Wow the twists and turns, you really need to see some of these in action, I hate to throw another option out there but the vibbieme domobar single boiler is about the best single boiler non hx machine out there, and does not suffer from the small boiler syndrome of the rancilio silvia, lovely small footprint and super shiny


Yes bubba enjoyed his time with one, he even said it produced better steam than the Expobar, deffo an option to consider! Looks miles better than all suggested so far in my opinion too.


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Wow the twists and turns, you really need to see some of these in action, I hate to throw another option out there but the vibbieme domobar single boiler is about the best single boiler non hx machine out there, and does not suffer from the small boiler syndrome of the rancilio silvia, lovely small footprint and super shiny


That's a nice looking piece of kit.


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## Portishead (Jul 16, 2013)

Oh my god...[puts head in hands].


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

painty said:


> Could you tell us what the detail changes are, coffeebean? That would be interesting to know.


The new model features the same water tank as the Piccino which

1) is easily removable for simpler filling and

2) enables you to fit a water filter to prevent the build up of scale.

It also features the same drip tray as the Piccino, which is easier to remove and deeper than the original drip tray.

Aesthetically the purple panels have been replaced with black panels, the new tank makes the machine flat on top rather than featuring the domed tank lid.

Andy


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## Padder (Dec 14, 2012)

Surely the HX element of an HX machine relates to how the brew water is heated? In a HX machine the water passes through the steam boiler to heat. I think what the other poster was referring to re the Fracino's was that they aren't true E61 machines which relates to how the brew head is heated.

As far as I'm aware you only get single boiler, duel boiler and HX machines


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Padder said:


> Surely the HX element of an HX machine relates to how the brew water is heated? In a HX machine the water passes through the steam boiler to heat. I think what the other poster was referring to re the Fracino's was that they aren't true E61 machines which relates to how the brew head is heated.
> 
> As far as I'm aware you only get single boiler, duel boiler and HX machines


 Sure, Fracino's don't have an actual E61 group - they have a group similar to an E61, but, to be honest, I'm not sure whether the group is saturated with hot water in the same way as in a 'real' E61 (perhaps an Cherub owner can enlighten us). But that's a different issue - you can put an E61 on dual boiler or an HX machine.

Fracino use an open thermosystem (which they call a heat exchanger and others don't) which works on a slightly different principle to a conventional HX machine. The original poster clearly thought this made it inferior - I was just trying to establish why he thought this was.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The original poster clearly thought this made it inferior - I was just trying to establish why he thought this was.

Simple, it is the only logical explanation of how they manage to reduce the build cost to the extent that they do. I did not say it was inferior. I said it was not a true HX machine, forgetting into the bargain that they also use their own version of an E61 grouphead.


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

RoloD said:


> Fracino use an open thermosystem (which they call a heat exchanger and others don't) which works on a slightly different principle to a conventional HX machine. The original poster clearly thought this made it inferior - I was just trying to establish why he thought this was.


I'm curious too....The Fracino machines use an open thermosyphon which, to all intents and purposes does exactly the same thing as a traditional HX system, just in a slightly different way. They use the same thermosyphon on the Londinium I.....


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Simple, it is the only logical explanation of how they manage to reduce the build cost to the extent that they do. I did not say it was inferior. I said it was not a true HX machine, forgetting into the bargain that they also use their own version of an E61 grouphead.


The group is made by Iberital did I read? HX components are just pipes and adaptors - wouldn't have thought those would affect price too much. I noticed Fracino Heavenly don't have any welding on them*, which will save costs, and instead use some riveting on internal joints.

* except the boiler


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

make no bones about it folks fracinos are cheaper because they are made here in the uk. This thread is about the value offered to the op in relation to a cherub OR an oscar, both machines will produce a similar (entry level hx/Thermosyphon) quality shot. Both have copious amounts of steam power, although i prefer the delivery on the oscar. However the cherub has a hot water tap, which for me is not required on a home machine as if you needed hot water to make an americano , you just remove the portafilter and flush water through the group straight into the intended receptical, which in essence is at a much better temperature than the boiling water in the boiler.

The clear difference is materials and size, the Oscar is the most compact HX money can buy, barely bigger footprint wise than a silvia, however the panels are ABS which is not to everyones taste, the fracino offers stailess panels or painted panels and offers the more traditional look to an e61 esq group. On paper they will produce similar standards in espresso, one is £100 cheaper........


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> Simple, it is the only logical explanation of how they manage to reduce the build cost to the extent that they do. I did not say it was inferior.


 With respect, everything you said implied it was inferior. I don't think an open thermosyphon is any cheaper to build than a traditional HX - they both have about the same amount of copper piping and valves - I believe the Fracino's are cheaper because i) they are built here ii) they use fairly advanced manufacturing techniques (computer controlled lathes and sheet bending) and make a large amount of their own parts (including, I believe, the group).

You have obviously had a bad experience with a Cherub and I am just trying to discover what that is as other Cherub owners seem very happy with their machines. I have no particular reason to defend Fracino, but as I have recently recommened them to a couple of friends, I am interested in finding out the truth. Personally, I think Cherubs are rather ugly machines, but I am not too keen on the plastic bodied Oscar either.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Rolo you HAVE to love fracino and so should DFK as the back end of both your L1s are made by them


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I didn't get the Oscar for its looks, the only truly beautiful single group is the speedster IMO. Every machine has its plus points though.

I like simonellis and personally not particularly fond of fracinos, so it was Oscar or musica and I couldn't justify the layout on a musica when the Oscar k30 combo set me back less than a musica on its own.

However now Ive the opportunity to get a used rocket I'm going for it. To be honest I should've just bided my time and gone the used machine route from the off.

Anyone want an Oscar ;p


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

coffeechap said:


> Rolo you HAVE to love fracino and so should DFK as the back end of both your L1s are made by them


Indeed it is. And most LI owners think the quality of the engineering is very high (despite a few teething problems with some of the early machines, many of them due to damage caused in shipment).

I think the problem with Fracino's own branded products is the fussy and ugly design, not the actual engineering. But I'm willing to be proved wrong.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

geordie-barista said:


> IHowever now Ive the opportunity to get a used rocket I'm going for it.


 Without doubt, the Rockets are the best looking machines. Before I went the lever route, I very nearly bought one. But I haven't heard anyone suggest the coffee that comes out of them actually tastes better than a similarly specced Expobar or Fracino. But that's not always the point; you want to own a machine you can love.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Right back at the start of the thread, all I said was that the Cherub was not a true HX and that the Oscar is. Then others came in and talked about definitions of thermosyphons and component quality etc etc and the roundabout that is forums went round and round. i dislike fracinos and do not hide the fact. I have had 2 Fracinos, both Heavenlys and at the time liked them.

However, I dislike Fracinos marketing (which does not make it a good or bad machine) and I dislike the way that on this forum, until recently, the standard advice given out to anyone who asked was to buy a Classic, MC2, Cherub, Vario combination. the Grind Off has partially shown the MC2 and Vario are not as good as others, and as yet, there has been no way of putting machines side by side.

Bella Barista do not sell fracino so when they put on the day for forum members in September, there will be ample opportunity for those to see plenty of machines, of which some might be considered as opposition to Cherubs.

I also said that having tasted coffee on both Cherub and Oscar, I preferred the latter


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## Callum_T (Dec 23, 2012)

Long time no speak but my rocket murders the cherub I had previously - doesn't quite match the 2 group GB5 EE in work though!

Couldn't have my Italian machine compared to a fracino

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

the delivery of the coffee in the rocket is much better as it via a rotary pump, also the components appear better put together, I think fracino offer a great product at its price point but it is interesting that they dont take on the italians in the 1000 plus market, i.e dual boiler and rotary pump variants. I would lve fracino to have a go at producing a Duetto competing machine, but I am not sure they have the expertise or experience for these yet, or perhaps they are just not interested.


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## Spukey (Nov 4, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> the delivery of the coffee in the rocket is much better as it via a rotary pump, also the components appear better put together, I think fracino offer a great product at its price point but it is interesting that they dont take on the italians in the 1000 plus market, i.e dual boiler and rotary pump variants. I would lve fracino to have a go at producing a Duetto competing machine, but I am not sure they have the expertise or experience for these yet, or perhaps they are just not interested.


They would need a new designer first as the square fit for purpose only boxes they produce now would not be acceptable in the plus 1k price bracket. I love my Cherub and have had some fantastic coffee from it and do find it easy to use. However i know that it has many falls and there is better out there, but as others state at its price point it is hard to beat.

Personally i find the Oscar ugly as sin and for this reason alone could not own one. The cherub is the ugliest thing allowed in my kitchen hahaha


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Glad to see the humour returning! Actually, on a serious note, it will be interesting to see what machines Bb can seriously put forward in the sub £850 price bracket. It is a grey area of the market and one that should be fiercely contested.


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

Spukey said:


> The cherub is the ugliest thing allowed in my kitchen hahaha


How did I manage to get in there then ;-)


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## Spukey (Nov 4, 2012)

bubbajvegas said:


> How did I manage to get in there then ;-)


I make an exception for humans !


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> make no bones about it folks fracinos are cheaper because they are made here in the uk. This thread is about the value offered to the op in relation to a cherub OR an oscar, both machines will produce a similar (entry level hx/Thermosyphon) quality shot. Both have copious amounts of steam power, although i prefer the delivery on the oscar. However the cherub has a hot water tap, which for me is not required on a home machine as if you needed hot water to make an americano , you just remove the portafilter and flush water through the group straight into the intended receptical, which in essence is at a much better temperature than the boiling water in the boiler.
> 
> The clear difference is materials and size, the Oscar is the most compact HX money can buy, barely bigger footprint wise than a silvia, however the panels are ABS which is not to everyones taste, the fracino offers stailess panels or painted panels and offers the more traditional look to an e61 esq group. On paper they will produce similar standards in espresso, one is £100 cheaper........


Do you think the Oscar would be a worthwhile upgrade from a Classic @£500?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

yes yes yes and yes


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## Padder (Dec 14, 2012)

If I were in the market for a £500 2nd hand machine I'd seriously consider an offer on this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231016811651?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Arrgh. Do...not...need...to...upgrade...


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

> Originally Posted by coffeechap
> 
> the delivery of the coffee in the rocket is much better as it via a rotary pump, also the components appear better put together, I think fracino offer a great product at its price point but it is interesting that they dont take on the italians in the 1000 plus market, i.e dual boiler and rotary pump variants. I would lve fracino to have a go at producing a Duetto competing machine, but I am not sure they have the expertise or experience for these yet, or perhaps they are just not interested


.



Spukey said:


> They would need a new designer first as the square fit for purpose only boxes they produce now would not be acceptable in the plus 1k price bracket. I love my Cherub and have had some fantastic coffee from it and do find it easy to use. However i know that it has many falls and there is better out there, but as others state at its price point it is hard to beat.


Not all Rockets have rotary pumps... The strange thing about Fracino is that if you look at a machine like the Heavenly, and the Cherub too (to a lesser extent), is not that they are simple boxes, they are unnecessarily fancy boxes. It is not so much they are cheaply built, it is that they are built by engineers with very limited aesthetic sense. The Rocket is a fairly simple stainless steel box, but great care has been taken in how all the components are arranged. I don't know if the components are actually higher quality than the ones Fracino uses, but it certainly looks like they are.


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## Spukey (Nov 4, 2012)

RoloD said:


> .
> 
> Not all Rockets have rotary pumps... The strange thing about Fracino is that if you look at a machine like the Heavenly, and the Cherub too (to a lesser extent), is not that they are simple boxes, they are unnecessarily fancy boxes. It is not so much they are cheaply built, it is that they are built by engineers with very limited aesthetic sense. The Rocket is a fairly simple stainless steel box, but great care has been taken in how all the components are arranged. I don't know if the components are actually higher quality than the ones Fracino uses, but it certainly looks like they are.


They are sharp too, which adds to the uglyness, the edges come together to too much of a sharp point. My wife actually cut herself on the underneath of the drip tray casing as she cleaned around the cherub, this would never happen on a rocket etc.

It is almost like they have cut the panels to house the technical stuff inside and for this purpose only, looks have never been considered.


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## Spukey (Nov 4, 2012)

Another point to note is i dont dislike the look of the cherub, i just like most other stainless machines better in terms of looks. The heavenly is disgusting in my opinion.


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## Portishead (Jul 16, 2013)

I think from what you guys have said, the Cherub is probably the best option: big boiler, multiple drinks at once, future-proofed [as much as is realistically possible], all-metal and will grow with my needs. BUT I think the footprint will just be too big. Is there another very similar machine [£500-ish] that would do the job equally well, but take up less work surface real estate?


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

The Piccini dbl boiler is a tad smaller I think.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Portishead said:


> I think from what you guys have said, the Cherub is probably the best option: big boiler, multiple drinks at once, future-proofed [as much as is realistically possible], all-metal and will grow with my needs. BUT I think the footprint will just be too big. Is there another very similar machine [£500-ish] that would do the job equally well, but take up less work surface real estate?


The oscar ........







. As spukey put it yesterday what would you do with the 3cm less all round , unless you physically can not fit it on your space.


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## Portishead (Jul 16, 2013)

Yeah, I just don't like the look of the Oscar. Plus it's not great for Americanos either is it?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Boil a kettle? Or buy a cherub and get rid of the kettle and creat some space







. Don't think there is a magic solution for you.

Looks versus functionality versus space versus value for money. At your price range you may have to compromise .

And to be honest machines just get bigger the more expensive they are .


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Vibbieme domobar as said before ask those that have had one or have loaned one, they are superb single boiler machines and really pretty too.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Portishead said:


> I think from what you guys have said, the Cherub is probably the best option: big boiler, multiple drinks at once, future-proofed [as much as is realistically possible], all-metal and will grow with my needs. BUT I think the footprint will just be too big. Is there another very similar machine [£500-ish] that would do the job equally well, but take up less work surface real estate?


Unfortunately, you are hitting a section of the market which is not well stocked..

You have a gap between the single boiler home machines, and the prosumer machines, which contains bugger all.

The size helps with temp stability (larger boiler etc.) so nobody makes properly decent small HX/dual boilers (perhaps there is no real market..)

I would definitely like to see more small home machines in that price bracket, but you are pretty stuck with what has been mentioned above.

Cherub is not ridiculously big..

Domobar is a nice size too..


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The question is are you willing to consider used?


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## Portishead (Jul 16, 2013)

Yes, used is definitely an option.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

There is a domobar junior HX i think...

(also, expobar pulser, bezzera bz10)

Second hand opens up a whole different world.. levers, bargains, stregas (







)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

aphelion said:


> There is a domobar junior HX i think...
> 
> (also, expobar pulser, bezzera bz10)
> 
> ...


Aw gawd! Domobar fits shiny category , and couple people who used one on here raved about it for its size etc.


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## Portishead (Jul 16, 2013)

A big thanks to everyone's help and advice.

I've decided to go right back to basics and go for a Gaggia Classic.

I know..

...it won't be great for dinner parties (4-5 orders)

...it won't last a lifetime

...I WILL get upgrade-itus.

BUT.

By all accounts it will be a great first machine to cut my teeth on, learn the basics, and make me better informed when I take the plunge into the a prosumer machine a year or two down the line.

Chris


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Buy cheap , buy twice ; )

Probably the correct choice tho


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Portishead said:


> A big thanks to everyone's help and advice.
> 
> I've decided to go right back to basics and go for a Gaggia Classic.
> 
> ...


Glad you've reached a decision and you'll enjoy your the gaggia, there are a lot of people on here with them or who have had them , so you can pick their brains for advice if needed . At least you can be content that you are going into your purchase with eyes open about what it can and can't do. if you are looking at new Amazon market place sell seconds ( customer returns from time to time ) , bear in mind though most people will recommend replacing the steam wand with the Rancillio arm ( prertty easy to do by all accounts and loads of thread on where to get them and how to do it ) . There are bargain to be had on eBay with the benefit that it may come with the Rancillio arm already done . Next on your list has to be a grinder if you don't have one .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Looking at your original budget, a gaggia even new would leave you some spare cash for a decent grinder, this will be key to achieving great espresso with any machine . A people more wise than me have said , your machine is the oven , the grinder dictates the quality if the ingredients for the cake. There are tons of threads on here for grinders at certain prices. Again have a look at your counter space and see what you feel is appropriate and doable. There is a list somewhere on here of grinders people have, I am sure they would answer any questions if you messaged them about their grinder and give you honest opinions.


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## Portishead (Jul 16, 2013)

Yeah, I have to say, it FEELS like the right decision to make. I think jumping into a Cherub [or similar] kind of feels - for me - like walking from the driving test centre straight into a Porsche showroom. I won't get the most from and probably end up crashing...

Given the massive investment drop, I'll treat myself to a new machine. I think they go for about £160-ish.

Next, the grinder.

Without wishing to flog this thread, does anyone have a good starter machine they could recommend?

Thanks a bunch.


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

I know you have already decided on a Classic, but just to throw a spanner in the works, have a look at the Avanti - it's a new machine set somewhere between a Classic and a Piccino with a built in grinder (basically an MC2 on demand grinder that is built in to the machine) it does pods or ground coffee and I can do you one for £450 all in.......


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## Portishead (Jul 16, 2013)

coffeebean said:


> I know you have already decided on a Classic, but just to throw a spanner in the works, have a look at the Avanti - it's a new machine set somewhere between a Classic and a Piccino with a built in grinder (basically an MC2 on demand grinder that is built in to the machine) it does pods or ground coffee and I can do you one for £450 all in.......


Very interesting, thank you:

http://www.thecoffeebean-vanandroaster.co.uk/Avanti.html


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I would avoid built in grinders on any machine as it just adds heat to the grinding process, get a separate grinder and if you buy right you will have a grinder that will last any upgrade


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Portishead said:


> By all accounts it will be a great first machine to cut my teeth on, learn the basics, and make me better informed when I take the plunge into the a prosumer machine a year or two down the line.


Its a great first machine, which you will learn a good deal from (temp surfing etc.)

In fact, you'd probably learn more from pulling shots with a classic than a stable HX machine.

Best of luck mate


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Ah I guess you will ask lots of questions about grinders now, lets hope you take the advice or you can just ignor it and buy something cheap instead......


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## Portishead (Jul 16, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Ah I guess you will ask lots of questions about grinders now, lets hope you take the advice or you can just ignor it and buy something cheap instead......


Wow.

Are you for real?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

It was meant tongue in cheek, the thread spend ages extolling the virtues of the fracino and the Oscar and in the end you elected to choose the classic, contrary to all the advice given on the thread,( which is a great starter machine by the way) so please forgive my sarcasm I shall try to keep a lid on it.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Thought I would add a little perspective to my comment.

You started a thread asking for advice on a machine for £500 to which the ever enthusiastic members on here spent their time helping you out ( which is why this is a popular forum. Most people tend to have a look around at past threads to get an idea ( of which there are 100s on this very se topic) however the question was asked and advice and debate ensued.

Forgive my surprise when in the end you elected to ignor all the advice ( hence my initial retort ) and plump for a £160 machine!( which you will upgrade as it is a mare to make several drinks on) So am I for real? Absolutely yes


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Got to agree with Coffeechap on this one.

I tried to do 'espresso on the cheap' initially and caught a cold with my first machine which was fine for single espressos but painfully slow for milk based drinks due to the single boiler.

Mrs WD brings her crafting friends round for and afternoon of underwater basket weaving (or something similar) and volunteers my coffee making services. 20+ minutes later Ive just about made the 4 drinks, at which point I wished that I had taken more time and bought a machine that better suited my needs.

I replaced that machine within a month of purchasing and lost money in the process.

Its your money and your decision but I would make best use of the knowledge on this forum


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If you have a look on youtube the seattle gear coffee crew,do a clip on how long it takes to make four Lattes,on a rocket , a silvia , a cross land , the Oscar and some other single boiler USA item I forget which. Yep they are making bucket 12 oz lattes with double shots in each but does give you some idea if you are inclined to make drinks that big . Silvia came in at like 20 minutes I think. No prizes for guessing what won......


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## Portishead (Jul 16, 2013)

I came here looking for the right machine.

From this thread, I learnt how complex making good coffee is. I learnt there are many machines to choose from. I learnt mistakes are costly. I learnt not to rush in. I learnt new machines come out all the time.

The result? Thanks to people here, I think I settled on a machine that's right for me. Albeit around the houses.

The thread was useful, beyond any doubt.

Chris


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

The Gaggia Classic is a decent machine to start off on. You can - and this is the crucial thing - get a decent cup of espresso out of it. You will find making multiple drinks - particularly if you are steaming milk - a pain (but maybe you won't want to do that) and if you start using more interesting or 'difficult' beans you will find temperature stability a challenge. Nevertheless you will soon be making much better coffee than you can get at your average local coffee shop.

But the grinder - just to repeat what everyone says - is crucial. A cheap grinder will not grind fine enough or consistenly enough to make drinkable espresso.

Enjoy the journey!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If you get a new Gaggia and decide to move on , you will drop money on it , have a look at Ebay and see how many are for sale , then you will see why . If you get one from a good second hand seller with good feedback , at a good price ( I've seen em go for £40-60 ) , then if you move on your will get some money back , and might not loose any .

I bought a Dualitt espressivo , coz I knew no better and one of the broadsheets said it was good . I sent it back, I bought a Silvia based on web research before I got here. It's a great entry level machine , but I wish I'd found this place earlier and asked around , as I would have understood its limitations, and re thought the purchase. Lucky I got it at a reasonable price 2nd hand so I won't drop too much money when I move it on ( fingers crossed ) .

The guys here ( I don't include myself in this btw ) know there stuff , know the machines , and answer the same questions every week , with good humour and helpfulness and sometimes yes with a hint of tongue in cheek . Have a look at home barista the USA sight and see what happens when someone ask a question on there re a entry levels machine . A smack down ensues........


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Chris, each to his own, but, when you set a criteria that includes making several drinks in a row when friends come round, and then completely push that to one side and plump for a Classic, it makes people wonder which p[art of the advice process you do not quite grasp. the Classic can make one very good shot, then one reasonable shot, then it HAS to rest. it has a minute boiler which is its problem. it is not designed to make multiple drinks. The budget of £500 is still at the very budget end of the coffee spectrum.

If you have a wife and 5 children and need a seven seater people carrier, and state that is your need, then go any buy a two seater convertible you are bound to stir a reaction. The bottom line, is if you have a few friends round for a chat and a coffee, take them to Starbucks as they aint going to get one in a hurry from a Classic!

Looking at your original budget, a gaggia even new would leave you some spare cash for a decent grinder.......as one forum member contributed........the answer without a shadow of doubt is an MC2. A perfect pairing for a Classic. that advice has been handed out hundreds of times on this forum..go check the threads.


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## Portishead (Jul 16, 2013)

Here is my reasoning.

Yes, quite right, the Gaggia would fall short when serving drinks for multiple people.

But am I prepared to sink £hundreds into a machine that will only be needed for that scenario once every couple of months? Over the thread, I realised not.

Given the complexities and minefields, it just feels safer to opt for a machine I can cut my teeth on, learn the ropes and, when I'm ready, upgrade to something bigger. Making a good espresso, I now realise, is waaaay tricker than I imagined. I need to get the basics nailed first before jumping in.

When the times comes, everything I've learnt here will be put to good use.

Chris


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Portishead said:


> When the times comes, everything I've learnt here will be put to good use.


Agree with you Portishead. Cutting your teeth on something like a Classic is no bad thing. If you buy wisely second hand, you will be able to sell it on at or near the price you paid for it and, at the same time, gain valuable experience *and*, let's not forget, have some fun. I wonder how many people spend shed loads on an expensive and/or top of the range machine then get bored with it after the novelty has worn off and either don't use it at all or not to its potential? Better to take the cautious approach and then decide whether you want to submit yourself to the the endless pursuit of the God shot.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Definitely agree with the buy used here, rationale will be it will cost you prettying nothing over 6 months whole you learn


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Have to say, Portishead, that you were great at Glastonbury.


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## Portishead (Jul 16, 2013)

RoloD said:


> Have to say, Portishead, that you were great at Glastonbury.


Really? I thought I was a bit off form, as I was too engrossed thinking about which espresso machine to buy.


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

I have a Classic and steaming milk for multiple drinks is a complete pain. However..... I don't have to do this very often so when I do need to make multiple milk drinks, I just cheat and pre-warm the milk to a point in the microwave and finish it off with the steamer. To be honest, the people having the drink don't care one bit as they're not into coffee as much as me and I make sure I take the best shot. Yes the classic has its limitations, however you'll either learn how to live around them or just get fed-up and know what you want in your next machine.


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## danwilliam (Jan 30, 2013)

Hi coffeechap, i hear you're the man to talk to about second hand grinders... Currently using a Mazzer Luigi. Would really like to get my hands on a doserless grinder or 2 for commercial use. I'll soon be looking to upgrade from my Fracinos too, any pointing in the right direction would be much appreciated!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

RoloD said:


> Have to say, Portishead, that you were great at Glastonbury.


Love it, made me smile.....but it's still too damn hot.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

And me rolo ...


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

To stick my 2 pennorth in here I recently upgraded my grinder from an Iberital MC2 to a Brasilia RR55 OD a commercial on demand grinder and the difference in my coffee has been huge between the 2. So I would echo the advice here look for a good used Classic maybe £60-100, put aside £100 for stuff like tamper, milk jugs, cups and some great beans and talk to CoffeeChap about what grinder to get with the remaining £300. Spending £300 on a used commercial grinder from Dave will get you a refurbed and serviced machine from Dave that will last you a very long time indeed.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Not sure I will get the call after my sarcasm!


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## merittaman (Jul 19, 2013)

im you will use it for personal enjoyment, get the single-cup or pods type, for sharing get a auto-drip coffee machine


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

merittaman said:


> im you will use it for personal enjoyment, get the single-cup or pods type, for sharing get a auto-drip coffee machine


I'm sorry but for the Op's original question this is ridiculous advice, and would appear to be an attempt to steer traffic to your blog.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

AAaaaargh stupid double post


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## merittaman (Jul 19, 2013)

Charliej said:


> I'm sorry but for the Op's original question this is ridiculous advice, and would appear to be an attempt to steer traffic to your blog.


im am sorry about that, i'm just making backlink to my blog, and if it's not allowed here, i will happily remove it. Thanks.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

merittaman said:


> im am sorry about that, i'm just making backlink to my blog, and if it's not allowed here, i will happily remove it. Thanks.


Well generally speaking signing up to the site as a new user and then making posts to direct traffic to your blog is frowned upon and not really the way to go.


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## NathanEmmerich (Jul 26, 2013)

HI All

My Ascaso is in the process of giving up (it is a good few years old now). I am looking for a new machine and my needs are remarkable similar to the request at the head of this thread. I'd just like to check if I've got the basic conclusions right:

Oscar Nuova Simonelli. Good. Possible better than the Fracino but does not produce hot water.

That is a shame because I'd like a red one, I have a red kitchen!

Otherwise, go with the Fracino Cherub. (I can have red sides). The Piccino does not do hot water.

That about the size of it?

If the guy selling the Fracino is reading, do you deliver to NI?

Cheers.

Nathan


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## NathanEmmerich (Jul 26, 2013)

Oh, and I would assume you'd all advise against a bean to cup, such as: http://www.hartsofstur.com/acatalog/Krups-EA6930-Falcon-Picto.html

?

N


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

NathanEmmerich said:


> Oh, and I would assume you'd all advise against a bean to cup, such as: http://www.hartsofstur.com/acatalog/Krups-EA6930-Falcon-Picto.html


Definitely. B2C machines are a poor compromise.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Do you really need hot water?


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## CoffeeDoc (Dec 26, 2012)

I have had several B2C machines, the change to a proper machine is unbelievable. Make sure you get and adequate grinder.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Do you really need hot water?


like some one said the other day. The hot water tap is dead handy for the descale process, especially on a HX machine


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## NathanEmmerich (Jul 26, 2013)

I like an Americano and, since we only drink coffee we don't have a kettle to speak of. (It is one of those hob top ones).


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## NathanEmmerich (Jul 26, 2013)

I have the entry level Krups burr grinder. But it is getting a little tired too.


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## NathanEmmerich (Jul 26, 2013)

Does anyone know the actual measurements? There seems to be conflicting info out there, especially on depth, e.g.

http://fracinoshop.com/fracino-cherub-bespoke/

and

http://www.fracino4u.com/cherub-p23


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