# Struggling with Classic..



## Danz0r (May 29, 2020)

Morning all. Hoping for a bit of advice on anything I may have missed and to improve my results.

I bought a refurbed 2013 classic which forum member Ratty did around 6 weeks ago.

Since then, I've been trying to digest lots of information around the forum to get the best results from the machine.

While my coffee tastes ''fine'' as a flat white, my underlying espresso is still not very good. I've tried both Rave Fudge and Rave Mocha Java and they taste pretty much the same to me, and I'm really struggling to get any flavor notes mentioned.

Instead, I get what my palette would describe as a slight tinge of sourness [it could be bitterness, I'm new to this!] and a lack of body or flavors described [from both coffees].

*Equipment:*
2013 Gaggia Classic - Full Refurb / Descale and set to 9Bar (10bar resulting in 9 at group head) (with gauge).
14g double basket - unpressurised 
1zpresso JX Pro hand grinder
Calibrated tamper
Levelling tool
Paper clip for WDM

Coffees rested for at least 14 days before opening bag and putting into an Airscape.

*Process*
Machine warm up 25-30 mins.
Purge water when first turned on and then leave portafilter in group head to warm up.
Grind coffee. JX Pro setting has tended to be 1.7.2/1.7.3/1.8. As soon as I go to 1.7, I choke the machine. I'm dosing 16g. I tried 14g but resulted in a very soupy puck. 16g seems about right.
Coffee into portafilter after the 30 min warmup.
Mix around with paperclip to ensure decent distribution.
Use levelling tool to flatten off.
Tamp using calibrated tamper.

Flick steam switch on for 8 seconds.
Switch off. Immediately pull shot.
32g coffee out in around 30 seconds.

Any ideas where I can try and address? I've tried to reduce as many variables as possible.
I know a PID would be a good idea, but I don't want to throw another £90 at the machine without exhausting all other avenues.
I think a bottomless portafilter is going to be suggested too.

I'll add a video up later when I make my next coffee of the actual shot so you can take a look at the results in the cup.

Thanks!

Daniel


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

try pulling a 40s shot, see what happens,

9 times out of 10 were all under extracting without knowing it


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Honestly, that sounds like an awful lot of faff and woo and you have only just got the machine.

I get the hobbyist tweaks, but perhaps just focus on the basics 1st?

It's a 14g basket. Try sticking to it and using that as a constant.

Ditch the leveling tool.

Use a normal tamper if poss.

Don't worry so much about the machine getting hot for so long. Turn it on, wait for the red light, flush, wait for red light and go (or wait for another heat cycle if you must)

Don't be blipping steam buttons.

Then, as @Cuprajake says, try different extractions by changing one variable only at a time (grind).

You should see a range of flavour profiles from your shots and you can adjust to suit.

I am not saying the faff doesn't have value, but it's detracting from the basics and well, get them right first.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

If you're new to espresso then the levelling tool and calibrated tamper will help you reduce variables.

The "flick of the steam switch" isn't helping you unless you know exactly when you're doing it (ie immediately after the brew ready light goes off). All you're currently doing is taking a vague water temp of between about 87c and 97c and increasing it - so you could have 89c or 99c. Still completely unknown and entirely variable.

Leaving the machine for 10-15mins with the portafilter loaded - or waiting about 5-10mins and then running quite a bit of water through it is recommended. You need the boiler and the metal of the group to be hot! Don't just trust the brew ready light.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Danz0r (May 29, 2020)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Honestly, that sounds like an awful lot of faff and woo and you have only just got the machine.
> 
> I get the hobbyist tweaks, but perhaps just focus on the basics 1st?
> 
> ...


 Appreciate your comments @blue_cafe (And i'm not looking for an argument, I want suggestions / advice) but a lot of these go against almost every other thread I've read on the classic though, and actually everything I do is to try and ensure consistency. Your comments actually add more variables back in which I'm trying to avoid.

14g basket - pretty much everyone doses above 14g from various threads on here. When I dosed 14g I get a swimming pool puck and extraction way too fast.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/14536-how-many-grams-in-your-classic-double-basket/?do=embed

Ditch the levelling tool - This helps me with consistency knowing that everything is flat every time.

Use a normal tamper - Tamping as a newbie is quite difficult to judge. Having a calibrated tamper ensures the same tamp every time - again increasing consistency.

You're the first person I've had telling me to not let the machine warm up for at least 20 mins. Why?

Steam switch for 8-10 secs was a recommendation across multiple threads to raise the temp, without a PID, but perhaps I've misunderstood.

I also can't grind any finer as the machine chokes - and not entirely sure why I'd want to grind coarser? The only difference I can see I can make is how long I'm pulling the shot for.


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## Danz0r (May 29, 2020)

MrShades said:


> If you're new to espresso then the levelling tool and calibrated tamper will help you reduce variables.
> 
> The "flick of the steam switch" isn't helping you unless you know exactly when you're doing it (ie immediately after the brew ready light goes off). All you're currently doing is taking a vague water temp of between about 87c and 97c and increasing it - so you could have 89c or 99c. Still completely unknown and entirely variable.
> 
> ...


 Hi MrShades,

Thank you. That's a fair enough comment regarding steam switch. I'm just doing it when I'm ready to go, so maybe I'll take this part out for now.

Any other way I can ensure a roughly consistent temp (without a PID?)

Edit: What if I was to run water through group until light goes off, wait for light to come back on and then flick steam switch for 8 secs? That should be about as consistent as possible without a PID right?


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

I'd stick with the 16g if it's in the std Gaggia double basket, but it's worth using the 5p coin check to see if you've got some headroom for decent water dispersion.

When you say grinding finer was choking the machine, how long did you let it run before abandoning the shot?

I only ask as I've been through the same process and was bailing out too soon, which resulted in a sour shot. I let it run and run (about 20-30s) with a finer grind and although it seems slow it gave better shots, which finally gave me a direction to move in. I also ended up raising the temp by surfing as you've found. It's lots of small things that make incremental improvements I've found, but I can't pretend getting good espresso out of the Classic has been easy or fun, it's been frustrating and hard work, but I know a lot more about the process now than I did a year ago, when I was happy making crap milk drinks with my old Evo, fingers crossed you stick with it and get something decent out of yours too. HTH.


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## Danz0r (May 29, 2020)

Deegee said:


> I'd stick with the 16g if it's in the std Gaggia double basket, but it's worth using the 5p coin check to see if you've got some headroom for decent water dispersion.
> 
> When you say grinding finer was choking the machine, how long did you let it run before abandoning the shot?
> 
> I only ask as I've been through the same process and was bailing out too soon, which resulted in a sour shot. I let it run and run (about 20-30s) with a finer grind and although it seems slow it gave better shots, which finally gave me a direction to move in. I also ended up raising the temp by surfing as you've found. It's lots of small things that make incremental improvements I've found, but I can't pretend getting good espresso out of the Classic has been easy or fun, it's been frustrating and hard work, but I know a lot more about the process now than I did a year ago, when I was happy making crap milk drinks with my old Evo, fingers crossed you stick with it and get something decent out of yours too. HTH.


 Thank you! Sounds like a similar experience.

Remind me what I'm looking for in the results of the 5p check? I don't want to see it pressed into the coffee right?

When choking - I mean it's taken 20-30secs for the first few drips and then like another 30-60 seconds to get upto 1:2 ratio. Didn't feel like it was very good for the machine to be straining it that hard and it also didn't taste great.

Thanks again.


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

Sounds like you're pretty much on the right track to me @Danz0r

Think of sour as sharp; citrussy like a fruit, gives you the screwface... Bitter is more like a dark chocolate or a salad leaf like an endive or radichio.

Like @MrShades says I think the whole temp surfing thing is weeing in the wind a bit tbh.

I'd suggest trying to pull a longer ratio and see what that's like, try a 1:3 and a 1:2.5 and see what you think. Is it more or less sour? Sweeter?

Also my understanding is that smaller baskets are notoriously tricky to master, I'd think about investing in an 18g VST and a bottomless filter (you were right man 😁)

Finally, (and probably not what you want to hear...) a PID would be an excellent investment... knocks out another one of those variables 👍


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## bargi (May 7, 2020)

Danz0r said:


> Hi MrShades,
> 
> Thank you. That's a fair enough comment regarding steam switch. I'm just doing it when I'm ready to go, so maybe I'll take this part out for now.
> 
> ...


 What MrShades said,

I've got results better since
- purge for a 3-4 secs (don't need to keep purging till it goes out, it'll go out soon after)
- portafilter in
- wait for light to go out (might already be out)
- wait for light to come on and immediatly hit steam for 4-6 secs or so (tweak as necessary)
- Steam off and pull the shot!


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Danz0r said:


> Appreciate your comments @blue_cafe (And i'm not looking for an argument, I want suggestions) but a lot of these go against almost every other thread I've read on the classic though, and actually everything I do is to try and ensure consistency. Your comments actually add more variables back in which I'm trying to avoid.
> 
> 14g basket - pretty much everyone doses above 14g from various threads on here. When I dosed 14g I get a swimming pool puck and extraction way too fast.
> 
> ...


 For every video telling you to overfill the baskets, there is one telling you to keep to the rated dose.

For every video trying to sell you a leveler, there is one telling you not to.

For every video selling you a calibrated tamper, there is one telling you that tamping doesn't matter.

For every video selling you a PID, there is one telling you that it doesn't really matter.

And so on and so forth,

i believe that you get the basics right 1st and leave the esoteric stuff to later so that you can make your own informed judgements as to their worth.

I also think that one shouldn't have to go through hoops to get a normal or std shot. If you need to, then you've probably moved outside the capabilities of the device and should think about getting something else which can hit the target you are aiming for.

I don't expect earth shatteringly good shots out of the Gaggia, i know with much fuss and fluff, i can get them but i am just happy with "Ok" atm.


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## Danz0r (May 29, 2020)

bargi said:


> What MrShades said,
> 
> I've got results better since
> - purge for a 3-4 secs (don't need to keep purging till it goes out, it'll go out soon after)
> ...


 Nice one, I'll try this later.


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

@Danz0r you're right re the 5p check, there shouldn't be an impression in the coffee prior to running the pump, the Gaggia basket clears on mine with 16g in it, I tried varying the dose between 14g and 16g but 16g seemed to give the most consistent results. I've since changed to a 16/20 IMS which I like a lot more.

If you were getting output after 20/30s that's something to work with, it's just deciding if it's too sour or too bitter. Letting a shot run on if it's sour can give a better result than adhering strictly to the 2:1, I'd run two shots first one normal then the second at 1:3 and just taste the difference, check your palate before and after with lemon juice and a bitter salad leaf like endive etc, just to give you a idea of where your coffee is.

Another thing I found helpful was to buy a kilo of cheap Italian coffee, Kimbo/Musetti etc, they might not be to your taste, but they are cheap and forgiving and let you learn without spending lots on Speciality coffee from people like Rave etc.

One other thing I found was cleanliness makes a difference in taste, especially under the basket, most people clean/backflush regularly but I was surprised when I noticed a slight tar build up forming under the basket, cafiza cleared it no problem and I noticed a more defined taste immediately. HTH.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Danz0r said:


> Any ideas where I can try and address? I've tried to reduce as many variables as possible.
> I know a PID would be a good idea, but I don't want to throw another £90 at the machine without exhausting all other avenues.
> I think a bottomless portafilter is going to be suggested too.
> 
> I'll add a video up later when I make my next coffee of the actual shot so you can take a look at the results in the cup.


 The first struggle with the Classic is the temperature swing the boiler is small and one of the good things about a PID is knowing the temperature. If you are making consistent tasting shots, then you have got to grips with that and at least a good base to work from.

As mentioned purge it after steaming removes any dead space in the boiler.

If you watch the classic and measure the time it takes - when stable - for it cycle "light off (think heating)" for X seconds - "light on (think cooling)" for Y seconds you can use a timer (from those events) to decide when to start pulling a shot to try different temps.

Whether you need to blip the heating or let it cool depends on the brewstat - I found initially leaving it to cool a good 20 seconds better, (for me) but this was a bit of a faff as you have to wait for the right moment in the cycle. Then you buy a PID and forget about faff.😸

I found a 20g basket from VST quite easy, (I've since bought a 18g as i use slightly smaller cups now so i needed to dose to 17g) - a better basket reduces back pressure, meaning you grind a little bit finer. You can measure the difference in flow rates between baskets quite easily.

Don't be too obsessed with shot times - i'm happy around the 40-45s mark and 1:2.5. (from pump on) is usually a gusher for me.

Some very good comments about cleanliness, taste what is flushed out of the group, make sure the water is good.👍


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

I messed around with my classic for over a year. Couldn't get the whole temperature surfing at all. It was just too variable. And in my experience, water temperature is the SINGLE biggest affecting factor of taste. In the end I fitted a PID and it was like night and day. Suddenly I was hitting perfect shots time after time.

Then I upgraded to an E61 HX machine and I'm back temperature surfing again but at least I have a grouphead thermometer with that. I'd love a PID machine again though.


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## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

@Danz0r

The method I use is to nail temperature consistently on a Classic is:

Get machine thoroughly warm

Switch off machine

Do your shot prep

Lock portafilter

Switch back on

Now when you switch back on the Classic is likely already at the bottom of the heat cycle (machine ready/element light off). If it isn't, wait until it is.

When machine ready light illuminates initiate shot.

This should give you a very consistent start temperature every time.

When the element switches off, if left, the temperature in the boiler will continue to climb for some time before it reaches its peak. So, if the espresso is still not to your taste as a result of temperature, you can experiment with a delay between machine ready light and starting shot of 5, 10, 15 seconds for example.

This method is IMO far superior to flushing to force heating cycle as the influx of fresh water into the small boiler creates more instability.

I'm sure you will get there.

Edit: This is all a bit of a faff but will result in very repeatable start temperatures. I have fitted a PID to my Classic as I would fairly regularly forget to switch off at the start of my prep and got fed up with waiting for the right point in the heat cycle. The resulting coffee is not any better with the PID once the method above has been made, but it certainly makes things more convenient.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


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## Danz0r (May 29, 2020)

After more experimentation this weekend and watching many videos, I think the main cause of the 'bad' taste is down to early blonding and channeling.

However, I'm using WDT, tamping the same pressure with calibrated tamp and if I grind finer then I choke the machine.... I'm a bit stuck with what else I can do?


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## Marcros (Feb 9, 2020)

When you choke the machine, have you tasted the shot afterwards?

I ground a bit finer and thought that I had done the same but the resulting shots tasted much better.


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## Danz0r (May 29, 2020)

Here's a video of my shot and pictures of the resulting puck etc using 15g of Rave Mocha Java: https://ravecoffee.co.uk/products/mocha-java-blend

This was a particularly bad 'horror' shot but gives you an idea - the channelling is obvious due to only one spout being used for first part. Puck stuck to shower screen and looks very dry in some places, wetter in others. Also takes 20+ seconds for the first drops, over a minute for the full shot.

Tastes like every one of my shots - bland and a bit sour.

Any obvious observations that people can spot which can be causing this?

Basket pre-tamp but post WDT:


http://imgur.com/1zO1UgV


Basket post tamp:


http://imgur.com/yZCvTa2


Video of shot: https://streamable.com/jugfrd

Photo at end of shot:


http://imgur.com/iM3xM69

 15g in > 30g out

Puck stuck on shower screen:


http://imgur.com/ll2tAMd


Middle of puck in basket:


http://imgur.com/8dDT2wj


Top of puck when scraped off shower screen:


http://imgur.com/2c7xMSa


Sorry to all the coffee lovers who I've upset my posting this shit show.
Starting to get a little p*ssed off now.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Your pressure ramp up seems to be dead. The pump sound isn't changing during the shot.

I suspect you either have an OPV mod that has failed or the pump NRV has died.

And i think 16g is too much for OEM baskets regardless of what others say. If you fail the 5p test, you need to reduce the dose or get a bigger basket.

Soupy/ wet pucks don't matter in my experiences. I just pour off the ponding water into the drip tray and tap out the puck if needed.

Edit: perhaps do a video with the pressure gauge in view. You might have just choked the shot completely and the pump is just dumping through the safety valve. If you are getting 9bars on the gauge, then you've stuffed the puck too hard for the water to get through. On un-modded gaggias, your pump would just stall.


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## Danz0r (May 29, 2020)

<double post, deleted>


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## Danz0r (May 29, 2020)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Your pressure ramp up seems to be dead. The pump sound isn't changing during the shot.
> 
> I suspect you either have an OPV mod that has failed or the pump NRV has died.
> 
> ...


 Hiya. The pressure definitely does ramp up, maybe not obvious in the video. But I do have a pressure gauge which hits 9 bar for the duration of the shot, so maybe just weird sound on the video etc? Or is it obvious something is wrong?

This is with 15g in this video, but I also tried 14g yesterday and was the same result. Will try 5p test later.

Is it not a bit weird that I have parts of the puck which look completely dry, and then dark, wet rings elsewhere?


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## Danz0r (May 29, 2020)

@Blue_Cafe Just noticed your edit. So it's possible I'm too fine here I guess. I guessed from the extraction time that was probably the case but most advice to sour shots are ''grind finer''.

I think I do hear water getting dumped at the end of the shot, yes. Ideally, should nothing be getting sent down there at the end?


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Danz0r said:


> Hiya. The pressure definitely does ramp up, maybe not obvious in the video. But I do have a pressure gauge which hits 9 bar for the duration of the shot, so maybe just weird sound on the video etc.
> 
> This is with 15g in this video, but I also tried 14g yesterday and was the same result. Will try 5p test later.
> 
> Is it not a bit weird that I have parts of the puck which look completely dry, and then dark, wet rings elsewhere?


 Yuh.

Try this to test the system perhaps.

put the silicon tube from the safety valve outlet which sits in the water tank into a jug,

Put in your blanking plate.

Pull a (dead) shot for 30 seconds.

Measure how much water is dumped in the jug.

@9bar, the pump curve is 260ml/min so you should get 130ml ish in the jug


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Danz0r said:


> @Blue_Cafe Just noticed your edit. So it's possible I'm too fine here I guess. I guessed from the extraction time that was probably the case but most advice to sour shots are ''grind finer''.
> 
> I think I do hear water getting dumped at the end of the shot, yes. Ideally, should nothing be getting sent down there at the end?


 Well, that could be it as well.

It is a deffo choker.

Temp can affect taste as well so if you have a thermometer, perhaps pull 60s of water and take the temp and someone with a good machine can do a reference check.

Go with the grind 1st though.

I find 14g in, 35ish out in 20-25 seconds pulls a balanced shot.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

It just looks like your grind is way too fine now.

Grind coarser - but stay at 16g in the basket - and once you have the flow coming through reasonably well then adjust the flow more specifically with small changes to the dose - so increase the dose slightly if it's flowing too fast, and decrease the dose slightly if it's too slow.

You can see the OPV is opening and returning your water to the tank, so the pressure is rising and hitting your OPV limit (if you hadn't adjusted it, you'd probably be completely choking again!). Yes, you should see excess pressure / liquid vent off down the vent pipe when you stop the shot.


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## Danz0r (May 29, 2020)

MrShades said:


> It just looks like your grind is way too fine now.
> 
> Grind coarser - but stay at 16g in the basket - and once you have the flow coming through reasonably well then adjust the flow more specifically with small changes to the dose - so increase the dose slightly if it's flowing too fast, and decrease the dose slightly if it's too slow.
> 
> You can see the OPV is opening and returning your water to the tank, so the pressure is rising and hitting your OPV limit (if you hadn't adjusted it, you'd probably be completely choking again!). Yes, you should see excess pressure / liquid vent off down the vent pipe when you stop the shot.


 Thanks. I'll grind coarser tomorrow AM and take another video.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Danz0r said:


> Any obvious observations that people can spot which can be causing this?


 Thanks for posting the great photos.

The first thing that caught my eye was it's it's too fine, causing channelling around the outside, and water is not flowing through the middle where the bulk of the coffee is. Water takes the path of least resistance always. Once it finds an easy path, it will start to use it.

When you release the pressure with the three way solenoid the excess water departs the group head and sometimes the vacuum sucks the puck off the basket, i find it happens more often when its clean. The puck is not consistent so the top leaves the bottom in the basket.

To work out the dose size the 5p test is sufficient headroom. Once you know it, you'll be able to eyeball it.

For my basket - it it almost exactly where the ridge is so i think you might be able to go a bit further than 16g. Some coffees are more dense than others.

The less you dose the thinner the puck and the more vulnerable it is to weak spots where the prep is less perfect. This i think is why the 20g baskets and bottomless PFs are much loved, you get away with a lot, and you can easily see when you go wrong.

The standard conical shaped basket is not helping the cause for a couple of reasons, puck is thinner - on the outside, and a slightly conical shaped basket means more resistance to the flow. A cylinder shaped basket means the flow path should be shorter and more consistent.



Danz0r said:


> Also takes 20+ seconds for the first drops, over a minute for the full shot.


 You should, assuming the boiler has been flushed after steaming, be seeing the first few drops at 6-10s, and then watch the scales and time the 5g increments, they should start slow and then accelerate to about 4s for each 5g towards the end.

Good luck - noone said it was easy 👍


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## Danz0r (May 29, 2020)

Agentb said:


> Thanks for posting the great photos.
> 
> The first thing that caught my eye was it's it's too fine, causing channelling around the outside, and water is not flowing through the middle where the bulk of the coffee is. Water takes the path of least resistance always. Once it finds an easy path, it will start to use it.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for this. Really appreciated.

I will be taking a further look tomorrow.

One question is; which 18/20g basket will fit my current portafiller? Or do I need to switch to a bottomless to be able to change that?


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Danz0r said:


> One question is; which 18/20g basket will fit my current portafiller? Or do I need to switch to a bottomless to be able to change that?


 I have VST 18g and 20g and they both fit in a standard Gaggia PF. 👍


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