# Hoping for help to make my mind up



## biggow (Apr 8, 2019)

Hi all,

I'm relatively new to this game, but have owned a Gaggia Classic in the past, and have just done the barista training with the wonderful Tracy at Pollards in Sheffield, and now I'm looking to get my first 'proper' machine.

I've pretty much settled on either the Sage Dual Boiler or the ACS Minima, but keep going backwards and forwards between them.

The Minima is an E61 machine, much better looking (although subjective I know), powerful steam delivery, probably longer lasting.

The Sage has a lot more functionality and room for experimentation, although that may be dangerous for someone at my level, and has a lot of generally nice features such as the auto on/off function, the programmable front volumetric buttons, easy to descale, but of course there's the fear over longevity.

So I'm hoping the experts on here might be able to help me make my mind up.

Thanks in advance.


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## joe (Nov 13, 2014)

Choose your grinder first. It all starts there and thats where the money spent really pays off.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Welcome and Minima!



But get a Niche Zero first, if you're into single dosing.

Simples!


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

agree get the minima, the sage is great but will break long term after the warranty runs out - not many parts available, much less repairable

Grinder wise do not buy the sage grinder its not a match for either machine. If you have to buy new then the Niche will tick the box, I prefer large flat grinders and would look at something second hand 75mm up.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Welcome if you can afford it get the minima or even look around the forsale area.


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## biggow (Apr 8, 2019)

Sorry, I should have said, I have already bought the grinder. I went for the Niche. How could I not after all the glowing reviews it's received.


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

No brainer then Minima...sorted


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## biggow (Apr 8, 2019)

No brainer seems kinda right. I've been using it to make pour overs so far, and it's great. I can't wait to get the espresso machine in place to test it some more. It's also an absolutely stunning looking piece of kit.

So the consensus so far definitely seems to be to go for the Minima, which I pretty much expected having spent time reading people's opinions on here. Do people thing there's anything that's maybe worth spending that bit of extra money on though? I've just had a bonus from work, and decided I want to spend a chunk of it on getting a really good espresso setup, so would consider going higher, but from what I've read it seems you've got to go an awful lot higher to beat the Minima.


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## Apatche64 (Jun 24, 2017)

Interested in this thread. Currently have a niche and a Sage Duo Temp Pro . Was thinking of upgrading to a dual boiler but the minima does tempt me , is it worth the £400 extra? Can get the dual boiler for £779 atm .

is it as quick startup etc? The sage seems very well designed


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

biggow said:


> No brainer seems kinda right. I've been using it to make pour overs so far, and it's great. I can't wait to get the espresso machine in place to test it some more. It's also an absolutely stunning looking piece of kit.
> 
> So the consensus so far definitely seems to be to go for the Minima, which I pretty much expected having spent time reading people's opinions on here. Do people thing there's anything that's maybe worth spending that bit of extra money on though? I've just had a bonus from work, and decided I want to spend a chunk of it on getting a really good espresso setup, so would consider going higher, but from what I've read it seems you've got to go an awful lot higher to beat the Minima.


Have you looked at Londinium?


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

The concern would be one of long term viability of the sage (parts / service / general use) vs the minima which will be easier to self repair (should you need to) and is built to a different standard than the sage.

It's not to say the sage isn't a good machine when new and working fine, the concern is one of what happens when it doesn't, at that point you could spend as much or more on another machine than you would have paid originally on the minima.

Hope helps and read around the forums before jumping in (me personally, minima)

John


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## biggow (Apr 8, 2019)

MildredM said:


> Have you looked at Londinium?


Hi MildreM,

No, I can't say that I have, mostly because they are, correct me if I'm wrong, twice the price of the Minima. Do you think there is that much difference then?

Funnily enough, I visited Foundry at the Cutlery works yesterday, and they had a Londinium III, which looked absolutely stunning. Great coffee too.

On a separate note, if anyone out there is anywhere near Sheffield, and haven't done so already, definitely check out Cutlery Works in Kelham Island. Really good food, particularly the Poutine, and of course fabulous coffee from Foundry.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Love the CWs and it's good to be able to see the Londo in action there.

Not twice the price?

Edit: sorry, I muddled you with another similar poster


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

For similar money as the Minima there is also the Expobar Brewtus, a dual boiler with, unlike the Minima, a full preinfusion e61 grouphead and replaceable heater elements. With the Minima, due to its rapid pressure ramp up, you have a greater risk of channeling


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Maybe he doesn't want a Skoda but a Golf, expobar works yes, but it's a old hand now. And who wants a 10 year old machine I don't


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## Saltydog (Jan 27, 2019)

Nikko said:


> For similar money as the Minima there is also the Expobar Brewtus, a dual boiler with, unlike the Minima, a full preinfusion e61 grouphead and replaceable heater elements. With the Minima, due to its rapid pressure ramp up, you have a greater risk of channeling


I must have missed that bit on the Minima "rapid pressure ramp up"

I checked out [email protected] extensive tests both beta and production machines not once did he mention that or was anything like what you describe demonstrated in the videos of the Minima pulling shots.

One of us is confused maybe me.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Saltydog said:


> I must have missed that bit on the Minima "rapid pressure ramp up"
> 
> I checked out [email protected] extensive tests both beta and production machines not once did he mention that or was anything like what you describe demonstrated in the videos of the Minima pulling shots.
> 
> One of us is confused maybe me.


I am going by the videos which show a ramp up of 2 seconds or less. A full e61 ramps up in 5 seconds or so.

The e61 was designed with the preinfusion facility to slow down ramp up. How does the Minima achieve the alleged slow ramp up without this facility?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Saltydog said:


> I must have missed that bit on the Minima "rapid pressure ramp up"
> 
> I checked out [email protected] extensive tests both beta and production machines not once did he mention that or was anything like what you describe demonstrated in the videos of the Minima pulling shots.
> 
> One of us is confused maybe me.


Just a troll spouting the same old hate he always does.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

@biggow There are about five people on here that got the beta versions of the Minima and several others on here that have bought the production models . My advice would seek them out and obtain advice from them re the machine .

I don't have one so cannot comment ! But from reading their experiences can be very informative ..

Also there has been a few Londiniums that have gone for a little more than your budget secondhand on the forum for sale thread .


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## biggow (Apr 8, 2019)

Nicknak said:


> @biggow There are about five people on here that got the beta versions of the Minima and several others on here that have bought the production models . My advice would seek them out and obtain advice from them re the machine .
> 
> I don't have one so cannot comment ! But from reading their experiences can be very informative ..
> 
> Also there has been a few Londiniums that have gone for a little more than your budget secondhand on the forum for sale thread .


Thanks Nicknak.

I've read quite a bit of the info. on here from people who've got, or used, the Minima, and it certainly does sound impressive. There's one thing that troubles me though, and that's that it all sounds a little too good to be true. It seems to be a machine that's as good as anything out there at hundreds of pounds more, which makes me wonder how that's possible, as you don't often get something for nothing in this world. Also, it's obviously not been used in anger for very long, as the production machines have, I believe, only been available for a couple of months now. Hence I'm slightly worried there are issues round the corner.

With regards to lever machines like the Londinium, as a newb I'm not really sure what the benefits are to using a machine like that.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

ashcroc said:


> Just a troll spouting the same old hate he always does.


This is a technical discussion so can you please keep it factual. When I look at the videos I see a 2 second ramp up. Counted from when the barometer needle starts to move up to full pressure. Do you see something else? A full e61 takes 3 seconds longer. These are facts.

If I have missed something, please enlighten me. I have asked several times how the Minima achieves its alleged slow ramp up without the pi chamber but all I get is silence or insults. (Using a vibe pump and a restrictor is not an answer)


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

biggow said:


> Thanks Nicknak.
> 
> I've read quite a bit of the info. on here from people who've got, or used, the Minima, and it certainly does sound impressive. There's one thing that troubles me though, and that's that it all sounds a little too good to be true. It seems to be a machine that's as good as anything out there at hundreds of pounds more, which makes me wonder how that's possible, as you don't often get something for nothing in this world. Also, it's obviously not been used in anger for very long, as the production machines have, I believe, only been available for a couple of months now. Hence I'm slightly worried there are issues round the corner.
> 
> With regards to lever machines like the Londinium, as a newb I'm not really sure what the benefits are to using a machine like that.


As a relative newbie as well if you start with better equipment the easier it will be , in my opinion . The levers are just a different way to make coffee . I play with a few small levers , which is a bit of a dark art but really enjoyable as you are in contact with the process all the way through . I guess something like a a Londinium will give you the same level of involvement but take away the variables that a small lever throws up .

I have only read about the Minima but it was designed to be cheaper but is made with many parts you will find in machines like my Profitec 700 . Much is made of the boiler having a built in heater , When you look through the forum I'm not sure how many people have to replace a heater in any machine . My heater alone is £46 so a boiler and heater in 5 10 15 years ( nobody knows) is not a big risk in my eyes for £80 ..


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Nicknak said:


> As a relative newbie as well if you start with better equipment the easier it will be , in my opinion . The levers are just a different way to make coffee . I play with a few small levers , which is a bit of a dark art but really enjoyable as you are in contact with the process all the way through . I guess something like a a Londinium will give you the same level of involvement but take away the variables that a small lever throws up .
> 
> I have only read about the Minima but it was designed to be cheaper but is made with many parts you will find in machines like my Profitec 700 . Much is made of the boiler having a built in heater , When you look through the forum I'm not sure how many people have to replace a heater in any machine . My heater alone is £46 so a boiler and heater in 5 10 15 years ( nobody knows) is not a big risk in my eyes for £80 ..


Boiler replacement is not about money but about availability. The boilers are off the shelf units made by an independent manufacturer so who knows whether they'll be available in 5 to 15 years time.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

Nikko said:


> Boiler replacement is not about money but about availability. The boilers are off the shelf units made by an independent manufacturer so who knows whether they'll be available in 5 to 15 years time.


I totally accept that , but the same could be said for Profitec and all the others . Sage could take them over and then not sell any parts to the public .

Also in your other argument you have with the machine , until you let us all know a bit more about yourself , your technical experience and possibly anything you know about the machine which you haven't read in DaveC review you are blowing bubbles .

You could be right ? But until you change your angle of attack few will give you credibility


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Nicknak said:


> I totally accept that , but the same could be said for Profitec and all the others . Sage could take them over and then not sell any parts to the public .
> 
> Also in your other argument you have with the machine , until you let us all know a bit more about yourself , your technical experience and possibly anything you know about the machine which you haven't read in DaveC review you are blowing bubbles .
> 
> You could be right ? But until you change your angle of attack few will give you credibility


Good job the minima boilers are stainless steel so they could conceivably have the element replaced by a competant fabricator if needs be.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Nicknak said:


> I totally accept that , but the same could be said for Profitec and all the others . Sage could take them over and then not sell any parts to the public .
> 
> Also in your other argument you have with the machine , until you let us all know a bit more about yourself , your technical experience and possibly anything you know about the machine which you haven't read in DaveC review you are blowing bubbles .
> 
> You could be right ? But until you change your angle of attack few will give you credibility


This is not about willy waving or personalities. Look at the videos. Do you see a 2 second ramp up? Why dont you trust your own eyes?


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

@Nikko This was discussed in the last thread you joined in on ... At the moment I would trust those that have the machine and the person who at the moment would seem to have the qualifications to inform me ..

As I suggested before if you opened your own thread and placed your technical breakdown of the machines shortcomings ,your reasoning and experience with it that might be useful .

Willy waving( I like that expression) it maybe but at the moment for me anyway you just appear to pollute other peoples threads and add little .

I really do thinks apposite views can be helpful if they have credibility.

I do hope the OP gets a machine he wants and likes .........................


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

@Nicknak

Yes this was mentioned before but I would not call it discussed. If you recall Davec ran away when I asked him a question and most people just popped up to stick the boot in without getting involved in the detail. Just like Ashrock above.

I have invited people many times to prove me wrong but no takers. I am basing what I say on the evidence of posted videos. That is all one needs to know. I invited you to form your own opinion but you say you prefer to follow others. That is not my style. HC Andersen got it spot on in one of his stories


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

@Nikko so nothing new.... I'm off for a run now


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

biggow said:


> Thanks Nicknak.
> 
> I've read quite a bit of the info. on here from people who've got, or used, the Minima, and it certainly does sound impressive. There's one thing that troubles me though, and that's that it all sounds a little too good to be true. It seems to be a machine that's as good as anything out there at hundreds of pounds more, which makes me wonder how that's possible, as you don't often get something for nothing in this world. Also, it's obviously not been used in anger for very long, as the production machines have, I believe, only been available for a couple of months now. Hence I'm slightly worried there are issues round the corner.
> 
> With regards to lever machines like the Londinium, as a newb I'm not really sure what the benefits are to using a machine like that.


The Minima is made with quality components, better than many machines that are more expensive (stainless boilers, long life steel heating elements, larger commercial opv) with a pressure gauge that takes its reading from above the puck. It's easier to maintain and clean than others with full E61 groups and easier to get inside than other machines (comparing to my Exopbar).

You can't replace the heating elements should they go but you can replace the boilers for a very reasonable cost. Should they ever become unavailable for any reason it would be a matter of finding another boiler to fit in the case or of having the element replaced by cutting it out and welding another in. The latter is the worst case scenario though and all other machines on the market are subject to the same speculation (parts may become unavailable for anything).

Regarding ramp up speed compared to a full E61 there is no discernible difference in the cup. My shots have improved because the PID is set more accurately. Instances of channeling have not increased and my grind settings are not significantly different. People who question the ramp up speed have no experience of using the machine and are speculating that the 2 second difference in the time it takes to reach full pressure will make channeling more likely. They base this off no actual knowledge or reasoning other than an 'accepted wisdom' principle that long pre infusion times better saturate the puck and lead to a more even extraction. It's true, but it doesn't mean that having a second or two shorter pre infusion compared to a full E61 will make a difference. This has been proven in practice where the time it takes for the vibe pump to ramp up to full pressure does not significantly compress the puck more than a slightly longer ramp up would with a full E61 and thus the shot does not slow down and the grind doesn't need to be coarsened. If you were to compare it to a 13 second low pressure pre infusion then yes, you'd see a difference, but the machines capable of that cost a lot more.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

@Rob1 My experience is that the slow ramp up of a full e61 compared to a machine without a means to slow it down is that it reduces channelling. Others may disagree but that the Minima has a fast ramp up is a fact.

Here is Dave C singing the praises of the full e61 with preinfusion on the Lelit Mara, which also has a vibe pump.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2017/11/20/lelit-mara-pl62s/amp/


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## biggow (Apr 8, 2019)

I'm genuinely interested to know how ACS are doing it though. How are they managing to produce a machine with those specs. so much cheaper than anyone else? I'm assuming they've not decided to take a hit on their margin, and if so I guess they are therefore either manufacturing somewhere that is a lot more cost effective than other companies are using, or are saving money on some of the components.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

biggow said:


> I'm genuinely interested to know how ACS are doing it though. How are they managing to produce a machine with those specs. so much cheaper than anyone else? I'm assuming they've not decided to take a hit on their margin, and if so so I guess they are therefore either manufacturing somewhere that is a lot more cost effective than other companies are using, or are saving money on some of the components.


They manufacture in Italy. They are saving money on non essentials like mirror polished steel, fancy fixtures made of wood, standard valves instead of joystick/noncompression. And other manufacturers just charge more for the badge.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Nikko said:


> @Rob1 My experience is that the slow ramp up of a full e61 compared to a machine without a means to slow it down is that it reduces channelling. Others may disagree but that the Minima has a fast ramp up is a fact.
> 
> Here is Dave C singing the praises of the full e61 with preinfusion on the Lelit Mara, which also has a vibe pump.
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2017/11/20/lelit-mara-pl62s/amp/


That's great, you had trouble with distribution in the past then your technique improved when you moved to a full E61 group. Or you could also have been using a different shower screen and dispersion, could also have had a different flow rate... My experience is the ramp up makes no difference, at least in the case of the Minima vs Expobar full E61 using the same shower screen, vst baskets, tamper and grinder. When you moved from a solenoid E61 to a full E61 did you check flow rates and use the same equipment and same techniques with the same beans and a standardised water supply?


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## Apatche64 (Jun 24, 2017)

Apatche64 said:


> Interested in this thread. Currently have a niche and a Sage Duo Temp Pro . Was thinking of upgrading to a dual boiler but the minima does tempt me , is it worth the £400 extra? Can get the dual boiler for £779 atm .
> 
> is it as quick startup etc? The sage seems very well designed


anyone?


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Rob1 said:


> That's great, you had trouble with distribution in the past then your technique improved when you moved to a full E61 group. Or you could also have been using a different shower screen and dispersion, could also have had a different flow rate... My experience is the ramp up makes no difference, at least in the case of the Minima vs Expobar full E61 using the same shower screen, vst baskets, tamper and grinder. When you moved from a solenoid E61 to a full E61 did you check flow rates and use the same equipment and same techniques with the same beans and a standardised water supply?


my technique (if you can call it that) and pretty much everything else apart from the e61 has stayed the same


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

biggow said:


> I'm genuinely interested to know how ACS are doing it though. How are they managing to produce a machine with those specs. so much cheaper than anyone else? I'm assuming they've not decided to take a hit on their margin, and if so I guess they are therefore either manufacturing somewhere that is a lot more cost effective than other companies are using, or are saving money on some of the components.


They have introduced a number of compromises including a reduced e61 and off the shelf boilers. Expobar have a similar spec machine without some of these compromises.

Why is the Minima group hole drilled wonkily so that it cannot accept a pressure gauge without redrilling or some reworking?


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## biggow (Apr 8, 2019)

Apatche64 said:


> anyone?


I was hoping someone would jump on that too Apatche64. That price difference is absolutely massive, and despite all the pros of the Minima it's making me VERY tempted to pull the trigger on the Sage.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

biggow said:


> I was hoping someone would jump on that too Apatche64. That price difference is absolutely massive, and despite all the pros of the Minima it's making me VERY tempted to pull the trigger on the Sage.


Start-up is very quick, no longer than 12min.

Please do Nikko a favour and get the Sage.

Or PM me for more info from an actual Minima beta tester and user.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Apatche64 said:


> anyone?





johnealey said:


> The concern would be one of long term viability of the sage (parts / service / general use) vs the minima which will be easier to self repair (should you need to) and is built to a different standard than the sage.
> 
> It's not to say the sage isn't a good machine when new and working fine, the concern is one of what happens when it doesn't, at that point you could spend as much or more on another machine than you would have paid originally on the minima.
> 
> ...


 @johnealey pretty much said it (though it got hidden a bit by the troll).

The sage may be cheaper now, but repairing it once out of warranty can prove more expensive in the long run. You'd be restricted to using Coffee Classics as they're the only ones who can supply & fit the parts.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Go sage you will be starting numerous threads which are just boring and time consuming


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Hasi said:


> Start-up is very quick, no longer than 12min.
> 
> Please do Nikko a favour and get the Sage.
> 
> Or PM me for more info from an actual Minima beta tester and user.


You said you measured 7 seconds. Is that from switching the pump on or actual ramp up?

I don't care what people get but why spread falsehoods?


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Nikko said:


> You said you measured 7 seconds. Is that from switching the pump on or actual ramp up?
> 
> I don't care what people get but why spread falsehoods?


Practically speaking, it's from when you hijack a thread until when everyone is annoyed by your presence.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

biggow said:


> I was hoping someone would jump on that too Apatche64. That price difference is absolutely massive, and despite all the pros of the Minima it's making me VERY tempted to pull the trigger on the Sage.


I had a Sage Oracle for about three months from new it broke ,I wasn't impressed with Sage's reponse so I took it back, and got my money . The Sage DB makes very nice coffee and there are many happy users on here . But it too is made to a price . It is predominantly plastic with a thin stainless cover and it looks a nightmare to work on . Many external coffee repairers will not touch them for that reason . I believe it is made as a disposable kitchen appliance . If you would look at the internals of the Sage compared with a Expobar or Minima you would get the sense of what I am saying .

Everything has been said about spares and servicing yourself above .

edit When I got the oracle the DB was near £1200 , it seems strange they have dropped the price so dramatically . Perhaps the Minima has had an effect ..


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Hasi said:


> Practically speaking, it's from when you hijack a thread until when everyone is annoyed by your presence.


i can understand that learning things about your machine that you did not know when you bought it may be annoying. Hopefully others can now make an informed decision. That is the objective of this forum, would you not agree.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Nikko said:


> i can understand that learning things about your machine that you did not know when you bought it may be annoying. Hopefully others can now make an informed decision. That is the objective of this forum, would you not agree.


I would if I knew you're giving informed advice. But it's not about me here.

It would really help if you could get your hands on one Minima, have a play, taste and compare the results to a 'full' e61 dual boiler side-by-side. Then we'd be talking about the same thing. What ultimately matters to folk in their homes is whether the metal box they're about to throw money at repeatably delivers nice coffee and is easy to use, clean and maintain.

All I can say is it does on all levels!

Re channelling, as a daily user I can vouch for it not being an issue at all. We run all sorts of beans at all sorts of roast levels through it, using only standard equipment supplied with the machine. No problems whatsoever.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Nicknak said:


> edit When I got the oracle the DB was near £1200 , it seems strange they have dropped the price so dramatically . Perhaps the Minima has had an effect ..


No, its not an effect of the minima. I guess they can make money at the lower price, its been up and down a little but often available for a good price over the last few years.

For the OP.

I have a Sage DB (and an L1 and a La Spaz 2 group). I've had several other machines. I think it depends a little what you're looking for.

The Sage can make fantastic coffee, it is cheaper to buy. You can play with preinfusion to try different preinfusion times /pressures or run a whole shoot on preinfusion setting to see what it's like with a lower pressure. That's all great. However, it's likely you'll hit problems at some point. Definitely descale regularly, even using volvic or tesco ashbeck water I had a small leak that the engineer put down to scale. I think you can get a good cover with LakeLand and they may price match. The steaming is slower but well regarded for the quality of steam you get from it. Gary **** whilst at hasbean commented it was easy to get good quality milk with whilst compared to very expensive commercial machines...

The minima looks like a well thought out machine. There are happy users paired with a Niche. I think it's likely you'd get some tasty coffee with that pairing and although less tested, I would suppose you'd find help from ACS if it did go wrong and its likely easier to work on than the sage with more widely available parts.

The L1 is a pleasure, I recently bought one second hand. I can't say I've had better coffee from it yet, though somehow I enjoy the process more with a Lever. The coffee is still very good and strong steam power. It's also very new to me, so some of it could be new toy syndrome.

Hmm, sorry I don't know if that's overly helpful. I see you're in Sheffield so seems unlikely but if you happen to be going near Basingstoke get in touch and you can come and see the Sage and L1 sometime.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Hasi said:


> I would if I knew you're giving informed advice. But it's not about me here.
> 
> It would really help if you could get your hands on one Minima, have a play, taste and compare the results to a 'full' e61 dual boiler side-by-side. Then we'd be talking about the same thing. What ultimately matters to folk in their homes is whether the metal box they're about to throw money at repeatably delivers nice coffee and is easy to use, clean and maintain.
> 
> ...


Save it. Nikko believes all machines with full E61 groups produce identical shots and all machines with partial E61 groups produce identical shots which are different to all full E61 group shots. He has no experience at all of the Minima but thinks his limited experience of other machines is somehow valuable, meaningful and informative. He's made his mind up and shoved his head firmly up his arse.


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## joe (Nov 13, 2014)

Nikko said:


> Yes this was mentioned before but I would not call it discussed. If you recall Davec ran away when I asked him a question


I don't think he "ran away"

He did put that particular thread on 'ignore'... possibly because he got sick of the cyclical argument that you seem determined to 'win'.

A lot of people seem to struggle with your online persona .. does that never give you pause for thought? Does it never bother you that you seem to rub most peoples rhubarb up the wrong way ?


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

@jlarkin I would have to admit my comment re the minima effect was based on no evidence whatsoever .. I would however be interested on the evidence you have to say to the contrary ?


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

joe said:


> I don't think he "ran away"
> 
> He did put that particular thread on 'ignore'... possibly because he got sick of the cyclical argument that you seem determined to 'win'.
> 
> A lot of people seem to struggle with your online persona .. does that never give you pause for thought? Does it never bother you that you seem to rub most peoples rhubarb up the wrong way ?


What is putting it on ignore partway through the discussion if not running away


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

biggow said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm relatively new to this game, but have owned a Gaggia Classic in the past, and have just done the barista training with the wonderful Tracy at Pollards in Sheffield, and now I'm looking to get my first 'proper' machine.
> 
> ...


Let's have a reminder what this thread is about.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Nicknak said:


> @jlarkin I would have to admit my comment re the minima effect was based on no evidence whatsoever .. I would however be interested on the evidence you have to say to the contrary ?


Think he was referencing price fluctuations of Sage equipment and previously given discounts.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

MildredM said:


> Let's have a reminder what this thread is about.


You are right Mildred. For some reason people often divert a discussion about the pros and cons of machines to talk about me.


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## biggow (Apr 8, 2019)

Despite the big swerve the thread took there for a while, the posts and messages from everyone have given me plenty to think about. Particular thanks to Hasi and jlarkin for their input.


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## swai (Jul 26, 2016)

Since you were looking to spend a chunk of your bonus, have you considered the Lelit Bianca?

I was looking at the minima myself, i wanted to have plumb in as an option so then i moved onto the Bianca. Price difference for myself is 1400 euro for Minima and 2000 euro for Bianca. Bianca has the paddle for profiling if thats something you wanted to try in the future. You don't need to use it if you don't like.

I saw a post on another forum that the Bianca can be heated up to temp in 18 minutes although longer is better of course.


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## biggow (Apr 8, 2019)

I did look at the Bianca, but the profiling side of things is probably a step too far for me at this stage, hence I can't see me using it anytime soon, and I'm not sure I see any other benefits to the Bianca over the Minima. So lovely though it undoubtedly is, it's probably not worth the extra money to me right now. Whether I'll then regret that in a years time is another matter of course.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The long and the short of it, is that once Sage product are out of warranty, they are a liability. This is because they are designed to be chucked away rather than replaced. Only on UK authorised from of repairers who cannot sell you parts.

Yes I have had three Sage DB but bought all with a 3 year warranty and sold them on after. few months


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## Apatche64 (Jun 24, 2017)

Thanks for your help guys , I suppose the smart money is on buying a sage dB , but sell it on before end of warranty .

Or or do we think the minima will lose less money over two years ... hmmm ... gotta say 12 mins isn't fast compared to the sage for startup ...

from daves review view the steam is better on the minima , anything else apart from build quality?


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Apatche64 said:


> Thanks for your help guys , I suppose the smart money is on buying a sage dB , but sell it on before end of warranty .
> 
> Or or do we think the minima will lose less money over two years ... hmmm ... gotta say 12 mins isn't fast compared to the sage for startup ...
> 
> from daves review view the steam is better on the minima , anything else apart from build quality?


My 12min is from 13C ambient temp for now, sorry just sprung to my mind that I didn't mention before.

It's also the time it takes for both boilers as well as the group and cups on top to be ready for action. You can activate either brew boiler alone or both through the power switch.

Supposedly faster if you start at living room temperature

One thing you could do on many machines (excluding a Sage due to its funky buttons*) to overcome the wait is connect it through a timer module and set daily on/off times. There's mechanical, electronic and also App-connected WiFi switches around for small money. That or a wall socket controlled by your home automation system.

Discussion about selling your Sage on within warranty made me think a bit. Now that more and more people start to realise parts aren't freely available/repairs are going to cost them, how much money will be lost by end of warranty period already?

I don't believe in this idea in general, as I don't find anything smart in wanting to sell a thing that I haven't yet bought. But that's just me 

*correct me if I'm wrong but afaik the Sage will always come on in standby when you plug it in


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

Apatche64 said:


> anyone?


I've had both. The sage starts up more quickly and that was about the only benefit I saw. I think the minima knocks it out the park. It costs 15p or so to leave it on all say, so no problems there. And it looks better, you get standard baskets, porrafilters and tampers and will be easier to work on long term. I definitely prefer it. I think the difference in price due to the sage deal is a false economy (personally) as if you have to pay coffee classics £400 to repair it in 3 years Vs a cheap repair yourself on the minima, it's even Stevens.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Hasi said:


> M (excluding a Sage due to its funky buttons*)
> 
> *correct me if I'm wrong but afaik the Sage will always come on in standby when you plug it in


Sage does have a built in functionality for what time it'll turn on (can select only one time in the day though) .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

np123 said:


> I've had both. The sage starts up more quickly and that was about the only benefit I saw. I think the minima knocks it out the park. It costs 15p or so to leave it on all say, so no problems there. And it looks better, you get standard baskets, porrafilters and tampers and will be easier to work on long term. I definitely prefer it. I think the difference in price due to the sage deal is a false economy (personally) as if you have to pay coffee classics £400 to repair it in 3 years Vs a cheap repair yourself on the minima, it's even Stevens.


Sage dB is a standard 58mm

Looks as always is in the eye of the beholder. I can't get past the minima style at all.

Although the sage is at best functional kitchen appliance vibe


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Sage dB is a standard 58mm pf


You learn something new every day! Thanks, I didn't realise.


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## biggow (Apr 8, 2019)

Well I did it. I went ahead and pulled the trigger on a Minima from Bella Barista this morning. Should be with me tomorrow. I'm looking forward to a long weekend of experimentation with it.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Smart choice.


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## Planter (Apr 12, 2017)

Think you'll be pleased you made that choice.


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## Apatche64 (Jun 24, 2017)

np123 said:


> I've had both. The sage starts up more quickly and that was about the only benefit I saw. I think the minima knocks it out the park. It costs 15p or so to leave it on all say, so no problems there. And it looks better, you get standard baskets, porrafilters and tampers and will be easier to work on long term. I definitely prefer it. I think the difference in price due to the sage deal is a false economy (personally) as if you have to pay coffee classics £400 to repair it in 3 years Vs a cheap repair yourself on the minima, it's even Stevens.


Thanks , because you have had both you are in the the best position to judge .

I think all all this talk of repairing yourself on the minima isn't going to wash with most people , people usually get someone to do a repair , however easy , but I accept it will be cheaper with the minima.

Not it sure about the false economy , £400 is a lot of money, and who's to say there will need to be a repair anyway?

Does the minima produce a better cup of coffee would you say? Dave said it steams better, which is good, but it's got standard size portafilter etc. Can you pinpoint what makes it better than the sage?


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

Apatche64 said:


> Thanks , because you have had both you are in the the best position to judge .
> 
> I think all all this talk of repairing yourself on the minima isn't going to wash with most people , people usually get someone to do a repair , however easy , but I accept it will be cheaper with the minima.
> 
> ...


Drink wise, there won't be much in it. The sage DB was very good, and at one point was quite popular. For the offer price, it's a good deal. I do think the second hand market on here will fall away a bit due to fear factor, eBay may be ok.

If you want to keep initial outlay down, get the sage. If you consider second hand value when you sell and the net cost of owning, I reckon the minima may be better in the long run, but that's just my opinion.

I love my minima, and I aint changing it. After owning a number of machines, this was the one for me.


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## Apatche64 (Jun 24, 2017)

Thanks no123 , btw , it must cost more than 15 a day to keep the two boilers running all day surely?

Swaying slightly towards the sage atm but maybe i'll Be swayed to the minima


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

Apatche64 said:


> Thanks no123 , btw , it must cost more than 15 a day to keep the two boilers running all day surely?
> 
> Swaying slightly towards the sage atm but maybe i'll Be swayed to the minima


Yeah but you don't leave them both on all day. The brew boiler is on all day and the service boiler takes 5 mins to heat up so it's turned on and off as required.


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