# Hario Grinder issues



## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

This is my first post, so please go easy on me.

I got a Gaggia classic last wee and have been experimenting since, to try and get the grind/dose/tamp etc right, with mixed success.

I am using freshly roasted beans (Porters in Sheffield, who sell their beans within 48hrs of roasting)

I have followed advice on this forum and home barista with mixed success.

I have got the hario Skerton and if I set it 2 notches (for want of a better word) up from burrs completely closed, I get a nice fine grind, with a bit of grit in it (I'm told this is how it should be?)

On that setting, with 12g of coffee, I get around 35g of espresso in around 25secs, with a bit of a cream, which doesn't last very long.

If I take the grind out by 1 notch I'm having to up the dose to 17g and tamp hard, to slow it down to give me about 50g espresso in 20-25secs. This gives a good cream, but it doesn't last more than 30secs.

My issue is, if I put 13g of coffee in from the first setting, it chokes right up and I get no espresso and on the second setting, it seems to be running too quickly. There seems to be a big jump.

I'm reluctant to take the dose above 17g and find it frustrating that there is such a massive difference in a 7th of a screw turn on the Hario.

Can anyone advise me how I might adjust things to get a decent crema on a decent sized double shot using the kit I've got?

Many thanks

Matt Robbo, newbie


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Don't make big leaps in dose...this makes a massive difference in extraction between 12g & 17g. You may have to alter dose a little as you're limited by grind. Aim for 27g out from 17g dose (keep that ratio between 1.5 & 1.65x the dose weight, so 16g would give a ~25g shot). Rest your beans a bit longer than 48hrs off roast if you can, say 7 days? Don't get carried away with crema, focus on the shot taste.

Are you using the original basket, or a non-pressurised replacement basket?


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

The Skerton is not ideally suited to espresso from what I have read, anything that has steps is going to limit your ability to dial in for the beans you are using. You will essentially have to "get lucky" that the step of the grinder suits the beans in use.

A post here suggest to buy a 'Nylock" nut (one of those nuts with nylon in it that grips the screw shaft) which should give you a basic unstepped grinder and allow you to dial it in more effectively.

Also do make sure you are resting your beans for a week or so after the roast date.


----------



## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

The skerton has huge steps which is what you are experiencing. The 'grit' is called fines and they are generally good, but the skerton also has an issue where if the grind is a bit coarse the burrs 'wobble' and you get inconsistent grind which is bad. I've heard (but don't own so cannot guarantee) that the porlex and hario slim are better for espresso, and they aren't too expensive.

As others have said one way round it is to up the dose instead of adjusting the grind to compensate. 12g is very low to begin with, I'd go for somewhere between 15 and 18 grams. The 17 you tried is good, some cafe's go up to 20 around here.

Finally, are you using a pressurised basket in the Gaggia? (If it has a little plastic thingy in the middle its pressurised, if it has lots of holes its not). Apologies if you already know this, but the pressurised one will cause you no end of issues pulling a shot in your stated parameters. Are you using a metal tamper too? Again the plastic ones that come with the machine can cause no end of problems.


----------



## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

Thanks for the replies folks. I've binned the pressurised basket and have got a non pressurised double on the PF now.

I think I'll get a nylock nut and aim somewhere between the two extremes that I've got now.

The grind I've got too now is running far too fast, but the next step down will only allow 12g. Any more and I'm getting drips of treacle.

I'll also start saving for an MC 2


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I had similar issues when trying to use a porlex. I'd look at upping the dose to 14-16 as this will slow the shot down which means you can use a coarser setting. Good call on the locking nut mid steps.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

You can also try "nutating"

http://www.home-barista.com/tips/nutation-how-to-do-it-right-t12625.html


----------



## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

Bought a 50p nylon nut this very morning and am currently dialling in slowly but surely. What a difference. The original steps were 3/4 of a turn of the screw. Can now turn it minuscule amounts.

I now see what everyone is talking about with this grinder. You'd have to be very lucky to get it just right with that original setup.

Thanks for the knowledge peeps


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Great, let us know how it goes!


----------



## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Glad its working out for you now!


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Keep us posted how you get on. Photo would be good if you get round to it.


----------



## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

Have finally got it pretty much spot on. 27g of espresso from 17g of coffee in 27s. Super chuffed. Cheers guys


----------



## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

Just tried another shot. 28g in 27s from 17g dose. Crema didn't last long (this was a minute after it had finished)

Fairly bitter too. Any ideas. Should have have stopped it a few seconds earlier?


----------



## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Could just be the coffee, what are the beans? Light or Dark roasted?


----------



## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

Appear dark. Pollards in sheff. Their shop blend, I'm assured they were roasted 48hrs prior to purchase, which would make them about 9 days old ish


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

If you on a classic it may be time to start learning how to temperature surf









I have a k-type thermometer you can borrow if you like for the price of chucking it in the post.


----------



## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

Ahh. Confusion returns! Is that where I'm going wrong?


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Generally no, temp surfing is used to 'hone' your shot, you should be able to get a decent shot without. Some beans are more sensitive to the wrong heat than others, generally I find lighter roasts are a bit fussier.

Bitterness is usually related to over-extraction (too slow shot) or too high a temperature. Sourness is usually related to the opposite, so a quick shot, maybe channeling, and too low a temp. Temp surfing allows you to get some kind of consistency so you can narrow down what it affecting the shot.

Remember that all guides like the weights in and out are just guides. They are great for getting your shot close to where it should be, but understanding the flavour and what is affecting it will allow you to tweak these variables to get the best out of your specific bean.

I drink so many milk based drinks that I am lazy chasing the right technique for beans, but if you drink espresso getting things just right can make the world of difference to your drink.

edit: I ended up upgrading from my classic pretty quickly because I was chasing consistency, and its not easy on the classic. But its all budget permitting, obviously


----------



## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

With regards volume, from what I can gather, everywhere says 17g should give about 27g of coffee. Is that just for espresso. I.e if I making milk based drinks, would I change the setting to get more volume from that dose? I know its about taste, but all the shot glasses, espresso cups etc seem to be geared towards 2oz being a double shot. I am confused.

Thanks for the offer of the thermometer though. I've only had it. Week, but once I've got a bit more consistent at the very basics, I may give you a shout if that's ok?


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

That rule is generally about right, but it is also very common to pull a double shot from a triple dose as the first part of the shot is generally considered the "nicer" part. Experiment with this by cutting off your shot 5 seconds early and seeing if you prefer the taste. I have also seen arguments for the opposite which say that it is important to allow the shot to blonde fully before cutting off the shot. Watching for blonding (best done with a naked portafilter) is a good way to know when the best bits of flavour are running out. Generally I pull a shot straight into a mug, and cut it just as the "tiger striping" begins to reduce, but before its fully blonded. This for me is somewhhere between a double and triple shot, pulled from a triple basket.

Tiger striping is the the lines you get as the espresso pours, blonding is when it starts to go more fully the lighter brown colour.

And yea, you are welcome to ask for it whenever you like, its just sat in the cupboard at the moment.


----------



## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

Cheers mate. Naked PF ordered this morning an beans from Hasbean, so I'll know exactly when they were roasted. Also got Scott Rao's book to try and help get my head around it all


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Shot volume should be the same for straight espresso and milk drinks. The critical thing is getting the shot to taste good, then put whatever water/milk into it as you wish.

Originally, Italian espresso was a less concentrated drink...some beans aimed at this style may benefit from being pulled longer, but a "double" has no set beverage volume, it's the dose that makes it double brewed.

The 17.0g dose:27g beverage ratio (25.5 to 28.5g) is designed to get you a sweet balanced shot at a typical strength preference. To get a 2oz double at a decent extraction level (flavour balance) would mean you grind coarser & get a less concentrated drink.

Are you able to fit the scales under those shot glasses?


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Good luck with it all man, HB beans are generally a very light roast and can be difficult to get perfect, if you are having trouble the advice goes that the temperature should be slightly lower, the grind slightly finer and the grinds dose slightly lower.

You can achieve a lower temperature with the gaggia by flushing until the boiler light comes on, lock in your portafilter and then as soon as the light goes off turn the machine on. You raise the temp of the boiler by turning on the steam button for a few seconds.

There is also advice that says a pre-infusion helps get a good extraction on a light roast. To get this just right you turn the machine on for about 3-4 seconds then off again for 3-4 seconds, then pull your shot. This is worth experimenting with but just cased me grief when I had my classic, but that may well have just been me getting it wrong!

Edit: p.s. Rave beans are by far the most forgiving I have used, both their sig blend and original blend.


----------



## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

I can get scales underneath if needed (taking out drip tray and placing on a tuppaware lid) I've done this a couple of times, but the shot glass I have is marked at pretty much exactly the 27g mark.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

It's best to go by measured weight for consistency, at the shorter brew ratios common today you are only looking at a relatively small deviation to throw you off...parallax error on reading the glass line could eat that margin up.

Pull a few shots (tare the scales with the glass on them) pull your shot to the line, weigh shot & glass & see what you get?


----------



## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

Will continue to experiment. Cheers guys


----------



## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

Naked PF landed last week along with a supply from Hasbean. It's taken me half a bag to dial in the grinder, but finally cracked this morning


----------



## Mavis (Feb 5, 2014)

Thanks for advice guys


----------



## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

Well it's a month on since I started with my new Gaggia classic.

I've finally got the whole dose, grind, extraction down to well rehearsed regime. Lessons learnt:

1. I've found that the method of dosing the PF by stirring out lumps with a paperclip, has pretty much eliminated any squirting BPF issues.

2. The locking nut mod on my hario skerton has led to me being able to dial in and get the grind just right.

3. Buying a kilo of beans at a time means after the initial faff of getting the grind right, I am then able to enjoy weeks of stress free coffee making.

4. Rave's signature is bueno

5. Having tried and failed miserably to foam milk properly with the stock wand, I have just received my salvia upgrade and am sat drinking a superb flat white with proper micro foam on my second attempt, thanks to the tutorials on Origin's Vimeo feed.

Just waiting to finish of the signature off and then I've got a bag of Rave Fudge waiting patiently in the fridge to get stuck into.

Thanks for all the advice on here, which meant a very quick transition from making bitter syrup to something that would probably pass as coffee and is certainly better than anything I've had at Costa etc.

Happy days


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Thats great to hear.

Unfortunately I have some bad news for you...

Now that you are approaching the limits of your Gaggia Classic, you are about to come down with an onset of upgraditus


----------



## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

Ha ha. I had all on persuading Mrs Robinson that I needed to replace my 18month old De'longhi

As unobservant as she is, I'm sure she'd spot a grinder appear in our limited worktop space.

I might have to opt for invisible mods. Might play with pressure next


----------



## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

Today is a very good day. Just dialled in some Rave Fudge. Only took a couple of attempts and Then the subsequent flat white actually tasted of fudge. A eureka moment. Feeling rather chuffed


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MattRobbo45 said:


> Today is a very good day. Just dialled in some Rave Fudge. Only took a couple of attempts and Then the subsequent flat white actually tasted of fudge. A eureka moment. Feeling rather chuffed


Excellent , the joy of hitting the sweet spot is immensely rewarding isn't it ?


----------



## MattRobbo45 (Oct 3, 2012)

I'm amazed. The pessimist in me is expecting it to be a fluke and the the next one to taste like an ashtray


----------

