# Mara X



## Bicky

Lelit have announced a new version of the Mara - MaraX

https://marax.lelit.com/index-eng.html

It's a HX machine that's supposed to have a super quiet pump, and Lelit claim to have eliminated the need for any cooling flushes to bring it back down to brewing temp. Here's what @DavecUK had to say about it -



> I have had the prototype of that machine on the bench for 4 or 5 months now. I fed back a fair bit to Lelit which set production back a few months to make the improvements, especially some of those in the core thermal management software as it wasn't up to the standard it needed to be. It was good but not right. I think they have cracked it now and it's really quiet for a vibe pump machine. They have done some innovative things around the vibe pump but I can't say more than that (because it wouldn't be fair to). Think of it as a very quiet vibe pump machine that is a better HX. You have a switch behind the drip tray that allows you to set hot, med and cool brew temps all with no flushing, if there is a flush it would be minimal. It uses some clever algorithms to allow for this and still give good steaming using multiple thermal probes one of which is in the HX. Again I cannot share what the algorithms do exactly as it's confidential.
> 
> I do believe it will be a very popular machine!


 I can't find anything yet about pricing, so I'm unsure where Lelit are planning on positioning this in the Mara lineup, but as someone who's been on the cusp of buying a Mara 2 or 3 times in the last 6 months, I'm super interested to see where this goes!

What are your thoughts on this compared to the existing Mara?


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## DavecUK

Bicky said:


> Lelit have announced a new version of the Mara - MaraX
> 
> https://marax.lelit.com/index-eng.html
> 
> It's a HX machine that's supposed to have a super quiet pump, and Lelit claim to have eliminated the need for any cooling flushes to bring it back down to brewing temp. Here's what @DavecUK had to say about it -
> 
> I can't find anything yet about pricing, so I'm unsure where Lelit are planning on positioning this in the Mara lineup, but as someone who's been on the cusp of buying a Mara 2 or 3 times in the last 6 months, I'm super interested to see where this goes!
> 
> What are your thoughts on this compared to the existing Mara?


 Unfortunately, although I have a fair idea of pricing and how the line up will be, I am bound by confidentiality. I think if you *really* want this, then it's best to wait until it launches. Just tie your hands together so they can't reach into your pocket for a little while. My thoughts are; they have done a good job in making a better HX.


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## Bicky

DavecUK said:


> Unfortunately, although I have a fair idea of pricing and how the line up will be, I am bound by confidentiality. I think if you *really* want this, then it's best to wait until it launches. Just tie your hands together so they can't reach into your pocket for a little while. My thoughts are; they have done a good job in making a better HX.


 Ha no problem, totally understand, thanks for the heads up anyway. Definitely going to hold out and wait and see where this comes in, although I think I might prefer the look of the existing Mara! ?

Don't suppose you have any in-depth videos or review planned for this one?


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## DavecUK

Bicky said:


> ?Don't suppose you have any in-depth videos or review planned for this one?


 No because I don't have a production model. If I did then I probably would although it would be a while before I could get round to it. I have not asked Lelit to send me a production machine because I have so much on/scheduled.


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## Stanic

Bicky said:


> I can't find anything yet about pricing, so I'm unsure where Lelit are planning on positioning this in the Mara lineup, but as someone who's been on the cusp of buying a Mara 2 or 3 times in the last 6 months, I'm super interested to see where this goes!


 Polish distributor has put it on their website for 5100 PLN so around 1200 euro..not too bad


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## DavecUK

At some point I'll get one to have a look at...be interesting to see how it stacks up to the prototype Mara X I reviewed.back in July/August sometime.


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## Stanic

yeah probably it would be worth spending some of your time with it


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## stickyz

Daveuk , i know they are not exactly the same but I was considering getting the Marax vs ACS Minima and since i have a few more months (before I get the new kitchen) i have too much time to think about it , any comparison will be appreciated .


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## DavecUK

I don't compare, thats your job ?


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## Stanic

I found an interesting YouTube channel - Lelit insider

according to this video it heats up in 22 minutes (well the boiler I guess)

There are some videos on Bianca as well


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## MediumRoastSteam

Stanic said:


> I found an interesting YouTube channel - Lelit insider
> 
> according to it heats up in 22 minutes (well the boiler I guess)
> 
> There are some videos on Bianca as well


Well, the whole video shows a time lapse of a total of 32 min, from 9:32 until 10:04. My experience with a Rocket HX machine tells me the e61 and the machine overall should be ready to brew in such time, with a cooling flush required.

Note that, in the video, the service boiler (steam) gauge goes all the way to 2.5 bar pressure - at 9:54 and the light stops blinking, going solid, 22 mins in as per@Stanic remark - and then climbs down back to 1.5 bar and lower.

I, wondering whether this is to assist the machine getting up to stable temp quicker? Why did it go back down? Did it enter some sort of standby? What's the usual operating pressure for the service boiler?


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## Stanic

I think there was a mention somewhere in the forums that it uses a similar system for faster heat-up as Bianca does, overheating in the beginning of the process


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## Bicky

Now available for pre-order on BellaBarista for £950 ?

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-marax-espresso machine.html

Similarly priced to the old Mara, which I notice is no longer available, so I assume this is a direct replacement.


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## DavecUK

Bicky said:


> Now available for pre-order on BellaBarista for £950 ?
> 
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-marax-espresso machine.html
> 
> Similarly priced to the old Mara, which I notice is no longer available, so I assume this is a direct replacement.


 It's no accident and is a direct replacement. I advised Lelit to slim down the Mara range to pretty much just this last June....seemed pointless having so many options in the range. Very costly for production, better to have one machine "to rule them all" with the advantage of better economies of scale....and a better price for the customers.

I'm looking forward to getting it, can't wait to see the improvements over the prototype and just how nice it has become. I liked the prototype a lot apart from a few issues (now fixed). Although I do have a soft spot for Lelit and their machines, they are just risk takers, in a good way and I like companies that test the boundaries. I hope this is the last improvements they do to HXs as I'd like to see future resources go into other things. and I think they may have taken things as far as they can go.


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## Bicky

DavecUK said:


> It's no accident and is a direct replacement. I advised Lelit to slim down the Mara range to pretty much just this last June....seemed pointless having so many options in the range. Very costly for production, better to have one machine "to rule them all" with the advantage of better economies of scale....and a better price for the customers.
> 
> I'm looking forward to getting it, can't wait to see the improvements over the prototype and just how nice it has become. I liked the prototype a lot apart from a few issues (now fixed). Although I do have a soft spot for Lelit and their machines, they are just risk takers, in a good way and I like companies that test the boundaries. I hope this is the last improvements they do to HXs as I'd like to see future resources go into other things. and I think they may have taken things as far as they can go.


 Please do let us know your thoughts when you get your hands on one, even if you don't have the time for a full on review!


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## birel101

I hope I can hold out long enough for the review, interested in this machine too!


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## DavecUK

birel101 said:


> I hope I can hold out long enough for the review, interested in this machine too!


 I'm hoping I will have it done by 2nd week in March, assuming I get the machine by the end of this month.



Bicky said:


> Please do let us know your thoughts when you get your hands on one, even if you don't have the time for a full on review!


 I think it's always important to wait for the review and read it carefully. That way you know what you are getting.


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## damo

I have ordered one this week as my mind wasd pretty much made up on the Mara Delux after reading reviews, lookwise and spacewise it does what I wanted it to do

Having spoken to David at BellaBarista, I decided to wait for the new one and placed an order when it became available

I can't wait for it to arrive now !


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## DavecUK

If you liked and wanted the Lelit Mara Delux, then it's likely you will be delighted with this.


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## catpuccino

You can hear the new pump at 0:52


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## AJSK66

catpuccino said:


> You can hear the new pump at 0:52


Impressive improvement over the old Mara. I'm glad I went for the Gaggia for my first machine over the Mara, this new one is definitely gonna be the upgrade I go for in the future.


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## birel101

catpuccino said:


> You can hear the new pump at 0:52


Not as loud as my thumping sage that's for sure

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## DavecUK

Yes the prototype pump was VERY quiet, the production machine had a few more improvements and Lelit told me they had significantly reduced the noise level. This of course was impossible to hear in the exhibition environment at Host 2019 (Milan)..


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## Rob1

I'll be searching for yet more Lelit spare parts in the future.


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## Stanic

catpuccino said:


> You can hear the new pump at 0:52


 I just watched a video I made with the Silvia few years ago..this Mara is super quiet compared to that


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## Stanic

oh well I've pre-ordered the X too ?


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## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> oh well I've pre-ordered the X too ?


 So basically....I'm wasting my time testing and feeding back on a prototype, testing and reviwing the final product, with people running up and saying:


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## Stanic

DavecUK said:


> So basically....I'm wasting my time testing and feeding back on a prototype, testing and reviwing the final product, with people running up and saying:


 See what coffee does to people


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## CoolingFlush

OMG? - If I ever upgrade it will have to be one of these!

HX minus cooling flushes plus silence...


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## Wobbit

I'm still happy with my Mara, I just want the new drip tray on mine ?


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## Stanic

some pics from Lelit's instagram with Specialita side by side


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## MediumRoastSteam

Please stop teasing me!  If Dave's review is positive, I might be time to sideline the Pavoni.  oh, and train my 13 year old to drink espresso and lattes, and convince my wife it will look great in the kitchen.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Maybe a question to@DavecUK, but, given the advice that these are coffee machines and not tea making kettles, would be a good idea to have a recessed version of the hot water tap, mainly to drain the boiler or occasional hot water dispenser? That will be yet another thing not in the way.


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## Stanic

something like Bezzera BZ10? I would like to see that

and while we have Dave reading this thread I have another question, would the Profitec flow profiler fit this?


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## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> and while we have Dave reading this thread I have another question, would the Profitec flow profiler fit this?


 I don't know, probably but the Lelit one would match the group better aesthetically and I know it can be easily maintained. I still need to examine the Profitec one this week.


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## Stanic

if I were to keep the black fittings, the profitec one would look better to me, I also like its minimalistic design


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## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> if I were to keep the black fittings, the profitec one would look better to me, I also like its minimalistic design


 Then fit that one, saves me a job... To find out if it works well. Probably work fine. It's a shame lelit don't have a black paddle option, but I would just stain the wood black.


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## Bicky

I'll be holding out for the review, but one thing I do know is that I wished they'd stuck with polished SS rather than the brushed finish...


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## DavecUK

Bicky said:


> I'll be holding out for the review, but one thing I do know is that I wished they'd stuck with polished SS rather than the brushed finish...


 I personally quite like brushed, Mirror finish it such a PITA long term.


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## kennyboy993

Love learning about these Lelits - seems they are the only ones innovating..... good on 'em

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## Stanic

more pics from kaffee-netz.de

innards:


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## Stanic

the german distributor has apparently already received the machine


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## JOeG

Stanic said:


> something like Bezzera BZ10? I would like to see that
> 
> and while we have Dave reading this thread I have another question, would the Profitec flow profiler fit this?


 I am interested in fitting the profitect too - comes in a lot cheaper and is better matched aesthetically.

If I do that, what am I missing from the bianca ? temp control & a shot timer - anything else?
I just feel like if I end up buying the official paddle, matching wooden knobs and a naked portafilter it starts to get closer to the bianca price ?


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## Stanic

JOeG said:


> If I do that, what am I missing from the bianca ? temp control & a shot timer - anything else?
> I just feel like if I end up buying the official paddle, matching wooden knobs and a naked portafilter it starts to get closer to the bianca price ?


 you'd lose shot timer and precise temp control

the Bianca flow control kit plus wooden kit would cost around 330 euro together, quite a lot...the paddle looks great on bianca, but on mara it gets little overcrowded in the front as the steam/hot water valves are closer to the group, but I might install the wood fittings someday as I've already got walnut PF handles and I think it will still look fine with the profitec ball


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## MediumRoastSteam

It's a shame the hot water wand sticks out so much, given the fact they tried to make the machine as slim as possible. Almost defeats the whole concept.

Also, makes me wonder why they don't include a naked PF in the box these days as most of us will buy one first thing straight away, and not necessarily a Lelit branded one. But then they include a coffee tamper, something that most of us would replace straight away with a more suitable one.


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## DRAXXMENVONE

If they're releasing a black version of this machine, they've got my money.

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## DavecUK

DRAXXMENVONE said:


> If they're releasing a black version of this machine, they've got my money.


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## Jony

Quite a nice machine.


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## DRAXXMENVONE

DavecUK said:


> View attachment 36568
> hahah. I looked into it. painting stainless steel isn't that easy! you need a two part epoxy primer!


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## Stanic

sounds like it is pretty quiet..not sure if this is the production model though






but you have to "wake-up" the boiler with a grouphead flush to froth milk? @DavecUK


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## DavecUK

I have not got the production model yet... Perhaps they have forgotten me. When I do I will side by side it with the May 2019 Prototype. Then you will have all the usual boring detail and facts.

Clearing the decks with finishing a few jobs this weekend, so they can go on the bench, if it arrives?

At this rate BB will get one before me.


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## borez

> 10 hours ago, Stanic said:
> 
> sounds like it is pretty quiet..not sure if this is the production model though


 The PC connection is interesting - seems to be a telnet(?) connection via a serial cable. With some programming (and a Raspberry Pi + LCD screen), you could easily create a visual temperature tracker for the MaraX?


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## njlhyde

Still undecided between this, the ACS Minima and the Profitech Pro 600.

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## DavecUK

njlhyde said:


> Still undecided between this, the ACS Minima and the Profitech Pro 600.


 Nice problems to have


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## DRAXXMENVONE

Hoping the MaraX brings a few used older Maras onto the secondhand market!

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## DavecUK

DRAXXMENVONE said:


> Hoping the MaraX brings a few used older Maras onto the secondhand market!


 I can't think why it would....


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## DRAXXMENVONE

DavecUK said:


> I can't think why it would....


Folks upgrading? Seems like the X has some interesting new features.

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## DavecUK

DRAXXMENVONE said:


> Folks upgrading? Seems like the X has some interesting new features.


 You believe people with a Mara would upgrade to a Mara X? I don't believe any would.


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## DRAXXMENVONE

DavecUK said:


> You believe people with a Mara would upgrade to a Mara X? I don't believe any would.


Ah. You're probably right. Wishful thinking!

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## 17845

I won't be upgrading, my deluxe doe's what I want, when I want.

Wouldn't mind a quieter pump though


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## Northern_Monkey

hubcap said:


> I won't be upgrading, my deluxe doe's what I want, when I want.
> 
> Wouldn't mind a quieter pump though


 @hubcap Would be interesting to find out if the new pump system is backwardly compatible in terms of electrical and water fittings etc, could offer an upgrade if yours ever needs replacing?


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## 17845

@Northern_Monkey, I doubt if it can be, nice if it doe's and I would swop it out asap, but as its one of the main selling points of the X it would stop potential upgraders (if there are any).


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## DavecUK

Well just had a communication to say it's on it's way (plus another machine) in 3 or 4 working days. So Thursday or Friday airshipping permitting, quite looking forward to getting stuck in to it. Especially comparing the May 2019 prototype to where it is now....That was pretty good already...so my expectations are high. 

Then I will be able to have a good look at the Elizabeth as well.


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## Stanic

don't forget, the coronavirus lasts 9 days on hard surfaces ?


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## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> don't forget, the coronavirus lasts 9 days on hard surfaces ?


 Believe it or not, it had entered my mind., luckily couriers can kill anything!


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## damo

DavecUK said:


> Well just had a communication to say it's on it's way (plus another machine) in 3 or 4 working days. So Thursday or Friday airshipping permitting, quite looking forward to getting stuck in to it. Especially comparing the May 2019 prototype to where it is now....That was pretty good already...so my expectations are high.
> 
> Then I will be able to have a good look at the Elizabeth as well.


 Does that mean they have started to ship production machines to the UK (and potentially BB) ?

I know I sound a little impatient...


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## DavecUK

damo said:


> Does that mean they have started to ship production machines to the UK (and potentially BB) ?
> 
> I know I sound a little impatient...


 I have no idea, my shipment is completely independent of BB. I will start the review as soon as the machine arrives. I will be doing a side by side with the prototype as I think people might find it interesting how an idea develops and how long it really takes to develop and fine tune a machine. There is significant investment of time and money involved by companies when they make new machines. I have a very soft spot for Lelit because they are quite innovative and willing to do this sort of stuff, whilst remaining very price competitive,


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## borez

damo said:


> Does that mean they have started to ship production machines to the UK (and potentially BB) ?
> 
> I know I sound a little impatient...


 Does seem the first batch of machines are mailed out to esteemed reviewers (like @DavecUK). Will be looking forward to the reviews!


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## DavecUK

borez said:


> Does seem the first batch of machines are mailed out to esteemed reviewers (like @DavecUK). Will be looking forward to the reviews!


 I'm looking forward to them as well. The prototype was quite impressive, so If it's better than that (which it should be), then I'm going to be very happy.. I just wish the prototype didn't have SAMPLE written all over the front...PROTOTYPE would have been much cooler  You will see what I mean at review time.

I checked with BB they still expect them by the end of this month...so it looks like @borez is right on the money.


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## Stanic

DavecUK said:


> I just wish the prototype didn't have SAMPLE written all over the front...PROTOTYPE would have been much cooler  You will see what I mean at review time.


 from the promotion video:


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## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> from the promotion video:
> 
> View attachment 36797


 Ah bloody hell ...well mine was such an early machine I'm pretty sure it's only got a single pressure gauge, not a dual one, like the sample on the left! ?

I feel like I should just get me hat, coat and teeth....not let the portafilter hit me on the arse as I leave.


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## DavecUK

I am so good too, never published any photos. The sample I got and only one needle, the first prototype only had brew pressure ....Here is a photo of it, now everyone is publishing bloody photos...Cor it's a bit dusty...


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## Stanic

is it dusty because of lot of roasting?


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## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> is it dusty because of lot of roasting?


 Nah it's dusty because it's been stored uncovered since August.


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## catpuccino

Theres something I like about the SAMPLE print. Kind of like an endearing sh1tty tattoo.


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## DavecUK

catpuccino said:


> Theres something I like about the SAMPLE print. Kind of like an endearing sh1tty tattoo.


 Prototype would have been better and more accurate. It is laser etched too.... ?


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## armedcor

I'm getting ready to pre-order one of these. Coming from a La Pavoni and I'm really looking forward to some form of temp control ?

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts Dave!


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## DavecUK

armedcor said:


> I'm getting ready to pre-order one of these. Coming from a La Pavoni and I'm really looking forward to some form of temp control ?
> 
> Looking forward to hearing your thoughts Dave!


 No other bugger has waited, they just all went and pre-ordered.....wasting me time with this reviewing lark. I expected it today but nothing yet, perhaps tomorrow. I'll get the prototype back on the counter tomorrow, so I'm ready. to go when it arrives.

Don't you worry about me....you just go pre-order like the rest of them


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## njlhyde

No pre-order here Dave.
Patiently waiting for your review and hopefully some advice on this or the Minima.


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## Stanic

I've ordered the set of the walnut fittings


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## DavecUK

njlhyde said:


> No pre-order here Dave.
> Patiently waiting for your review and hopefully some advice on this or the Minima.


 well I got shares in both so no worries


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## Badgerman

Any first impression of the production version@davecuk?

Do you think it's a significant upgrade from a PID Gaggia with usual mods done for cappuccino. Paired with a Mazzer Royal usually with Rave signature blend?


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## DavecUK

Badgerman said:


> Any first impression of the production version@davecuk?
> 
> Do you think it's a significant upgrade from a PID Gaggia with usual mods done for cappuccino. Paired with a Mazzer Royal usually with Rave signature blend?


 I have not got it yet!


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## Badgerman

DavecUK said:


> I have not got it yet!


Is this you too?


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## MediumRoastSteam

Badgerman said:


> Is this you too?


It's well known to this forum that DavecUK does the reviews for Bella Barista.

Spring starts on the 20th of March, so a few more weeks to go.


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## DavecUK

Badgerman said:


> Is this you too?


 I didn't write that, I did test the prototype. The Production machine is coming to me direct (I'd hoped before this weekend), nothing to do with BB but I''ll still let them use the review. The Elizabeth is coming direct as well... After all they are authorised resellers and I consider them to be one of the top resellers in the UK. After all the review is public and available to all, or will be..


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## DavecUK

In fact the best place to see my reviews, up to date and exactly as I wrote them, with no lift and shift errors is on my review site. Sorry about the adverts, but if someone wants to give me £60 I will pay to get them removed for 2 years.


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## Badgerman

I wonder if the new Lombardy lockdown will impact delivery to BB.


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## Jony

Could do , they could just be held in customs. Only BB can tell you that


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## njlhyde

DavecUK said:


> well I got shares in both so no worries


While you're waiting for the Mara X to arrive, can you give me the pro's and cons between a HX and dual boiler for my use?

Two lattes every morning from the same double shot and four at weekends.
Up to four or six if friends or family come round.
Occasional espresso or Americano.

I've had a Silvia for last ten years and researching the upgrade.

I started with the double boiler but now think that HX machine may be better choice for my profile.

I see that HX should give similar results but pull fresh water through and are easier to descale. I'm thinking g that a double boiler would be overkill for my needs and lead to more stale water etc.

Am I missing anything?

Thanks

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## MediumRoastSteam

On the MaraX, does that mean the operational pressure on the service boiler is variable?

In other words, what's the pressure when steaming? Is it 2bar or 1bar or somewhere in between?

From the videos I see it seems to be around 1bar, but I don't know if it goes up or down at times.


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## DavecUK

Right, it arrived just now...must say I'm actually excited to see the HX reach pretty it's full potential before the leap into dual boiler territory.










First I saw this in the sky and at then end of it was









Making space for them now and moving a couple of other machines around as I'm still doing a little work on them, from time to time. However, want to get the Marax X in prime position next to the Prototype Mara X and see how far its come. Fingers crossed there is no shipping damage.

More photos to come when I have them on the bench and commissioned. Elizabeth will have to wait a little while for my attentions, but she won't mind.


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## Badgerman

DavecUK said:


> Right, it arrived just now...must say I'm actually excited to see the HX reach pretty it's full potential before the leap into dual boiler territory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First I saw this in the sky and at then end of it was
> <img alt="1963643953_MaraX.thumb.JPG.f72e058fbf7130b1c7ca7d6023bebd68.JPG" data-fileid="36940" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2020_03/1963643953_MaraX.thumb.JPG.f72e058fbf7130b1c7ca7d6023bebd68.JPG" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> 
> Making space for them now and moving a couple of other machines around as I'm still doing a little work on them, from time to time. However, want to get the Marax X in prime position next to the Prototype Mara X and see how far its come. Fingers crossed there is no shipping damage.
> More photos to come when I have them on the bench and commissioned. Elizabeth will have to wait a little while for my attentions, but she won't mind.


Looking forward to the unboxing pics/videos@davecuk. Thanks


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## Badgerman

Jony said:


> Could do , they could just be held in customs. Only BB can tell you that


BB heard from Lelit today who said they are still on track for delivery end of March early April.

They have 4/12 preorder machines still up for grabs at the reduced price.


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## Nikko

DavecUK said:


> The Production machine is coming to me direct (I'd hoped before this weekend), nothing to do with BB ......


 Are you saying that your "review" will be another of your purchased puff pieces


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## Stanic

Getting popcorn ready opcorn:


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## DavecUK

Well I had to go out, but came back and finished getting the twins back together.

Some of the best packaging I've ever seen, important if you ever have to move it again, or want it arriving undamaged, nice accessory set with 3 pf baskets single, double and big double:









Sisters not twins the production model is 9 months younger.....The differences are not obvious, but already I think I have spotted spotted 11 or 12 external differences (not including the text). I can understand why it took from May 2019 to final production. Some differences you almost can't see and perversely they would have eaten up a significant amount of time.









At first glance they appear to have knocked it out of the park with the X fit and finish is excellent and its vibe pump is even more refined.


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## armedcor

Just got my pre-order in. Very excited now


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## Badgerman

armedcor said:


> Just got my pre-order in. Very excited now


 Me too x 2.

think that's < 3 left on preorder at BB.

Just hope this latest lockdown doesn't delay deliveries further (obs not ideal for the Italians either).


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## armedcor

Badgerman said:


> Me too x 2.
> 
> think that's < 3 left on preorder at BB.
> 
> Just hope this latest lockdown doesn't delay deliveries further (obs not ideal for the Italians either).


 For sure, health in number 1 for everyone right now...but damn do I want this machine yesterday. ?


----------



## DavecUK

Badgerman said:


> Me too x 2.
> 
> think that's < 3 left on preorder at BB.


 I can see any review I do will make little difference. First impressions are, that you won't be disappointed. I even felt some excitement myself and am looking forward to tomorrow and trying it out (or later tonight perhaps). Looks pretty though and a nice compact size.


----------



## Badgerman

DavecUK said:


> I can see any review I do will make little difference. First impressions are, that you won't be disappointed. I even felt some excitement myself and am looking forward to tomorrow and trying it out (or later tonight perhaps). Looks pretty though and a nice compact size.


 It's now about justifying our blind £1k purchases!!


----------



## DavecUK

Lets hope they don't stop exports


----------



## Stanic

I wouldn't be surprised


----------



## jj-x-ray

Can't wait for your review Dave, I'm a bit late coming to this announcement, only just read through the thread.
Mara was in my wish list as an upgrade from my trusty gaggia, so keen to see how the X stacks up.
I have to say I prefer the black phenol taps and handles to the wood...

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

jj-x-ray said:


> Can't wait for your review Dave, I'm a bit late coming to this announcement, only just read through the thread.
> Mara was in my wish list as an upgrade from my trusty gaggia, so keen to see how the X stacks up.
> I have to say I prefer the black phenol taps and handles to the wood...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


 You will like this then.


----------



## Jony

Your music is killing me! what grinder did you use?


----------



## Stanic

Nice slow pre-infusion at 2 bar


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE

> 1 hour ago, DavecUK said:
> 
> You will like this then.


 Is the original Mara particularly loud by comparison? I don't mind a bit of vibration pump noise myself!


----------



## Stanic

jj-x-ray said:


> I have to say I prefer the black phenol taps and handles to the wood...


 The black trim makes it look more commercial, while the walnut more like a home machine


----------



## DavecUK

Jony said:


> Your music is killing me! what grinder did you use?


 Niche of course....have not got my sticky little fingers on a Bentwood....yet!



Stanic said:


> Nice slow pre-infusion at 2 bar


 It's actually a great gentle preinfusion rate right up to full pressure, this is because of what they have done to the pump which slows things down a tad but in a good way.



DRAXXMENVONE said:


> Is the original Mara particularly loud by comparison? I don't mind a bit of vibration pump noise myself!


 Bit louder and a very different quality of sound, check out the original Mara vid. I added music to that unfortunately. Of course AGC makes a difference on camera mics. If I had never used a vibe pump machine before and I got the MaraX i'd say meh...yeah sounds fine but if I visited a friend with another vibe pump machine i'd be saying "what's wrong with your machine" it's so noisy. If you've already used a vibe pump machine, you would be thinking, wow, that's quiet and doesn't sound harsh.


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE

> 2 minutes ago, DavecUK said:
> 
> Niche of course....have not got my sticky little fingers on a Bentwood....yet!
> 
> It's actually a great gentle preinfusion rate right up to full pressure, this is because of what they have done to the pump which slows things down a tad but in a good way.
> 
> Bit louder and a very different quality of sound, check out the original Mara vid. I added music to that unfortunately. Of course AGC makes a difference on camera mics. If I had never used a vibe pump machine before and I got the MaraX i'd say meh...yeah sounds fine but if I visited a friend with another vibe pump machine i'd be saying "what's wrong with your machine" it's so noisy. If you've already used a vibe pump machine, you would be thinking, wow, that's quiet and doesn't sound harsh.


 Doesn't sound a million mies away from the sound of my Silvia. I could certainly live with that! Shame Lelit can't make a version that plays upbeat acoustic guitar as you pull a shot! ?


----------



## Badgerman

Any more details on the upgrades from the old Mara @Davecuk?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> You will like this then.


Why is the boiler pressure only at 0.6bar?


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Why is the boiler pressure only at 0.6bar?


 Will all be in the review...


----------



## Badgerman

BB out of stock of preorders https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-marax-espresso%20machine.html

Glad I didn't wait for your review@davecuk, although v excited to help me retrojustify vs second hand option.

If our preorder first batch do make it to the UK with what's going on in Italy (and maybe us soon), I wonder how long for next batch to be in stock.


----------



## DavecUK

Badgerman said:


> BB out of stock of preorders https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-marax-espresso%20machine.html
> 
> Glad I didn't wait for your review@davecuk, although v excited to help me retrojustify vs second hand option.
> 
> If our preorder first batch do make it to the UK with what's going on in Italy (and maybe us soon), I wonder how long for next batch to be in stock.


 I assume the pre-order ones will make it and I know BB have asked for more but I would think a lot of retailers have, so it might be awhile for the next wave to come through after pre-orders. I suspect BB may continue the pre-order thing for the next wave of machines as well, especially if owners get them and like them a lot. Something I think is highly likely!

P.S. I was only kidding about waiting for the review, as with the relative scarcity of the machines you probably made the smart move. So far the production machine is panning out as expected but of course I had a prototype back in May.


----------



## Stanic

What I would like to see Dave, is the pressure in the GH during extraction, if you can be bothered installing the gauge


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> What I would like to see Dave, is the pressure in the GH during extraction, if you can be bothered installing the gauge


 It will be the same as on the machines brew/steam pressure gauge


----------



## nicholasj

Looks an excellent machine and at a price which makes it a no brainer compared to other HX.

But why have just three temperature setting? Do we know what they are? Easier to put a pid in? It's pimped up old technology isn't it.

Still, I would buy it.......I think! ?


----------



## kennyboy993

I love what they've done here - avoiding pid good idea as doesn't give owners the idea pid is some sort of accurate temp control like on single/dual boilers.

3 settings - simple, and can be fine tuned with a flush like any hx

For me main driver here is the size, dual boiler would not be able to achieve this so for some - including me - would choose it over dB

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## nicholasj

kennyboy993 said:


> I love what they've done here - avoiding pid good idea as doesn't give owners the idea pid is some sort of accurate temp control like on single/dual boilers.
> 
> 3 settings - simple, and can be fine tuned with a flush like any hx
> 
> For me main driver here is the size, dual boiler would not be able to achieve this so for some - including me - would choose it over dB
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Fair comment.....and its quality at a great price!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

kennyboy993 said:


> I love what they've done here - avoiding pid good idea as doesn't give owners the idea pid is some sort of accurate temp control like on single/dual boilers.
> 
> 3 settings - simple, and can be fine tuned with a flush like any hx
> 
> For me main driver here is the size, dual boiler would not be able to achieve this so for some - including me - would choose it over dB
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Imagine that machine with a recessed hot water tap and a solenoid activated e61-like group like the Minima.... less metal, less maintenance, more space.


----------



## Gavin

Can someone cancel their pre-order so I can get one please? 

(Only half joking)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Badgerman

Have been trying to guess the password for an early draft review sneak peek. It's not COVID or coffee forums...


----------



## Gavin

Badgerman said:


> Have been trying to guess the password for an early draft review sneak peek. It's not COVID or coffee forums...


Have you tried '1234'


----------



## Badgerman

Gavin said:


> Have you tried '1234'


Yes, also "password" and "admin".


----------



## Gavin

Badgerman said:


> Yes, also "password" and "admin".


Damn, he's good.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Badgerman

Anyone know@Davecuk's DOB or mother's maiden name?


----------



## DavecUK

Badgerman said:


> Anyone know@Davecuk's DOB or mother's maiden name?


 Even I don't know my date of Birth...so no one actually tried: 0000

Amazing....


----------



## Badgerman




----------



## Badgerman

What does this mean... is it good or bad? http://


----------



## DavecUK

Badgerman said:


> What does this mean... is it good or bad? http://


 It means this guy (who I met at host) is very technical....worried people using group head thermometers etc.. who are used to normal HX machines or dual boilers won't properly understand what's going on. Sadly, it's just confusing things for you guys. You've seen one video I put out and it's very different to what you are seeing there it is real world use to make coffee. Just be patient. There's a lot to go through and I need to be able to explain things properly....and it's not easy for me to work out the best way to do that. It's not even complicated how to use it once you understand what's happening inside and what's you really need to know.

I will explain things properly and fully and yes....pedantically. I had the prototype in May and gave Lelit specific feedback about temperatures. Why do you think they sent me a review unit (BB don't even have one), I'm not a retailer, I'm not going to order 60-150 machines...because those are the people who have review units..

I had an Idea about using HX machines in this way over 14 years ago and I did actually think through how such a machine would need to be used to be effective...

Don't worry, it's a great machine and people who pre-ordered will be delighted with it. I'm *really* liking it and you don't usually hear me say that about an HX nowadays with all the dual boiler machines available to us. If you have pre-ordered, the only thing to be worried about is whether Corona virus will delay you getting your machines. So far I have not found any gotchas...That doesn't mean I won't but if I do, I can't think they will be deal breakers.

I do have to take it's clothes off tomorrow and check it out internally, but I'm not expecting any huge suprises vs the prototype, although I can tell there have been some internal changes as well....

As always, wait for the review


----------



## DeepnGroond

What is your planning, Dave?
Arround March 21 for the review?

Verstuurd vanaf mijn HD1903 met Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

DeepnGroond said:


> What is your planning, Dave?
> Arround March 21 for the review?
> 
> Verstuurd vanaf mijn HD1903 met Tapatalk


 No, If I can, by Monday 16th March, possibly Tuesday (if I can catch the Cat rapidly for his Vets visit)...depends on how much video I want to shoot specifically for the review, it's the editing that takes the time.


----------



## kennyboy993

The fact that brew temp doesn't drop right off after 45 seconds or so shows this is no ordinary HX. Intrigued

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Badgerman

DavecUK said:


> No, If I can, by Monday 16th March, possibly Tuesday (if I can catch the Cat rapidly for his Vets visit)...depends on how much video I want to shoot specifically for the review, it's the editing that takes the time.


2 sleeps to go.


----------



## borez

kennyboy993 said:


> The fact that brew temp doesn't drop right off after 45 seconds or so shows this is no ordinary HX. Intrigued
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 What's equally interesting is the steam and brew pressure fluctuations... As the extraction continues, the steam pressure actually rises to sustain the brew temp. So there's some magic going on.

2 sleeps more to go (and 30 sleeps to my machine arrival!)


----------



## DavecUK

OK it's done Lelit MaraX review completed and published. It was a huge job and I worked late into the night to get it done.

Enjoy. https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/


----------



## Border_all

DavecUK said:


> OK it's done Lelit MaraX review completed and published. It was a huge job and I worked late into the night to get it done.
> 
> Enjoy. https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/


 Great review sounds like a good purchase ?


----------



## DavecUK

Border_all said:


> Great review sounds like a good purchase ?


 I think those that pre-ordered definitely won't be disappointed.


----------



## Badgerman

DavecUK said:


> I think those that pre-ordered definitely won't be disappointed.


Thanks again@davecuk. Appreciate your attention to detail and comprehensive review. Sorry for pestering you. Just excited.

I think the only thing we will be disappointed with is not receiving them due to ruddy Covid.


----------



## Stanic

thanks for the very informative review! looks like a winner


----------



## Jony

Where are they shipping from?


----------



## Badgerman

Jony said:


> Where are they shipping from?


Lombardy I think


----------



## Gavin

@DavecUK enjoyed the review. Thank you.

The machine sounds like a real banger. Really tempted to order one now, whenever they come back into stock.

the expansion valve sending water to the drip tray instead of the reservoir irked me a bit. I understand, from your review, why they've had to do it but if you're using bottled water it could be a bit wasteful, (although probably not that expensive even over the long term)

I've got a couple of questions if I could be so bold:

1. When I upgrade my machine (at some point), I'll probably be using mostly tap water (quite soft and a good level of alkalinity here). I descale my current machine rarely and get hardly anything out when I do. Opening it up there's no scale either.

So, how easy/hard would this machine be to descale by the end user?

2. what happens if you do a cleaning flush in BTP mode in between shots? What does this do to the brew temp/machine?

3. in your conclusion you allude to the machine having some negative points. Can you be more explicit? If I was looking for a HX machine, then what are the reasons not to buy this HX machine?

cheers,


----------



## Stanic

Reading the manual, the water filter assembly looks removable, for filter installation. Is it possible to use the tank without it in case you don't need to install the filter? The less stuff in the tank the better


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> Reading the manual, the water filter assembly looks removable, for filter installation. Is it possible to use the tank without it in case you don't need to install the filter? The less stuff in the tank the better


 Yeah course.. I don't have the filter installed. You can see the tank minus filter in the internal tour.

@Gavin 1.not hard

2. Fecks things up a little leading to a longer wait in between shots, why would you want to do a cleaning flush until you done the last shot in a group.?

3. I was totally explicit re the negative points, nothing hidden.


----------



## Stanic

I mean the whole assembly for the filter, can you use the tank without the thing in green box?


----------



## DavecUK

I left the support frame for the filter in place but I can't imagine why you can't remove it. Of course you won't have the little gauze particle filter at end of tube. Shouldn't matter tho.


----------



## Gavin

good point about the cleaning flush

Cheers @DavecUK


----------



## Bicky

Thanks for the in-depth review, this looks like a great little machine. Definitely at the top of my list when I get the chance to upgrade.


----------



## Stanic

What is the size of the steam tip thread? 10 or 12 mm?


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> What is the size of the steam tip thread? 10 or 12 mm?


 8 mm male on steam tip into female on steam arm


----------



## Badgerman

Have you tried any other bottomless PF? Wondering if need to get Lelit specific to get the 6 o clock alignment?


----------



## DavecUK

Badgerman said:


> Have you tried any other bottomless PF? Wondering if need to get Lelit specific to get the 6 o clock alignment?


 I'm not hung up about the 6 O clock thing, probably because it actually makes the pour easier to Video 

However, the portafilters I tried that worked. ECM, ACS (bottomless and normal), Crem, Izzo. I would imagine the bottomless versions of them all should be fine.


----------



## Stanic

As you say Dave, the machine isn't suitable for commercial use due to the way it works in the coffee priority mode (needs 15 minutes cool down pause if more than 5 minutes between shots), would this be different in the steam priority mode with cooling flushes? Not that I plan to use it in a commercial setting, just curious about the possibility.


----------



## John Yossarian

Great review @DavecUK

Very capable machine indeed. I was especially impressed with the pre-infusion time. It is on the long-ish side even for E61, or is it normal?

I am not looking for a new machine but whoever is up for upgrade for a sensible amount of cash, this should be on the top of their list.

Cheers,

John


----------



## Gavin

I know it's only a small thing but the more I think about the expansion water going to the drip tray the more it irks me.

I'm not familiar with any coffee machines at all (other than my Classic), is this type of operation standard for an E61? Also is 500ml a large drip tray?

My Gaggia Classic drip tray holds about 500ml, not far off the MaraX by the sounds of it, and I've got to empty that more often than I'd like even with the expansion valve run-off getting sent back to the reservoir.

Also If you're in steam temp priority mode doing cooling flushes, or flushing ("90ml") to hit specific temps on your three preset ranges in BTP, and with another 40-50ml of water going into the drip tray for each shot on top of that then that 500ml drip tray is going to get full pretty quickly. And a lot of wasted water.

Think I would have rather have sacrificed the in-tank filter capability (which I'd remove anyway), for the water to go back to the reservoir.

I appreciate many others will find the way Lelit have done the water/in-tank to their advantage though, I'm just talking about my own circumstances and preference I suppose.


----------



## DavecUK

John Yossarian said:


> Great review @DavecUK
> 
> Very capable machine indeed. I was especially impressed with the pre-infusion time. It is on the long-ish side even for E61, or is it normal?
> 
> I am not looking for a new machine but whoever is up for upgrade for a sensible amount of cash, this should be on the top of their list.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> John


 Agreed



Gavin said:


> I know it's only a small thing but the more I think about the expansion water going to the drip tray the more it irks me.
> 
> Also If you're in steam temp priority mode doing cooling flushes, or flushing ("90ml") to hit specific temps on your three preset ranges in BTP, and with another 40-50ml of water going into the drip tray for each shot on top of that then that 500ml drip tray is going to get full pretty quickly. And a lot of wasted water.


 It's only dumps that water once the pressure gets to 9.3 bar, so it won't put any extra in the drip tray when flushing as the expansion valve isn't open...oh and *I never used to actually flush HXs into the drip tray, it was always into a cup to warm it. I could never understand people who did their cooling flushes straight into the tray?* That said, I would never use it in pure HX mode, I can't ever see a reason I would need to.

Even with my 8-10 double a day habit, I'm not finding it irksome and simply empty it at the end of the day. Although when I flush to clean after a series of shots, I do 30 ml into a tupperware container and use some of it to brush around the group.. I think I demoed that in one of my videos months ago. I've always cleaned that way. However, if it's a big issue for you, then it's probably not going to be the right machine to choose.



Stanic said:


> As you say Dave, the machine isn't suitable for commercial use due to the way it works in the coffee priority mode (needs 15 minutes cool down pause if more than 5 minutes between shots), would this be different in the steam priority mode with cooling flushes? Not that I plan to use it in a commercial setting, just curious about the possibility.


 In STP mode it's as commercial or not as any other small HX because it operates like any other small HX. I stress though, it's designed as a domestic machine, not for a cafe, bar or whatever....the home kitchen.


----------



## Gavin

DavecUK said:


> It's only dumps that water once the pressure gets to 9.3 bar, so it won't put any extra in the drip tray when flushing as the expansion valve isn't open


 I understand this but rather wanted to point out additional flushing and separate expansion valve run-off from pulling shots would add up.



DavecUK said:


> However, if it's a big issue for you, then it's probably not going to be the right machine to choose.


 Maybe. Or maybe I'm getting hung up about nothing.

I'll go an have a look when they finally get them in.


----------



## Stanic

So, it takes 15 minutes to go from lower to higher temperature setting, did you measure how long it takes to go from higher to lower temp setting Dave?


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> So, it takes 15 minutes to go from lower to higher temperature setting, did you measure how long it takes to go from higher to lower temp setting Dave?


 15m rocking either way.


----------



## DavecUK

Bet you can't wait for yours to arrive?

I always think it's a shame you can't enjoy that unboxing joy more than once. Although every time I see it on the counter I smile because they did such a good job on it.


----------



## Stanic

can't wait, takes too long but I take it as an patience exercise..not that I have much to choose from 

next step sorting out the grinder


----------



## Jony

You just might have too ?ohh the anticipation.


----------



## DavecUK

Don't forget to add a naked PF to you order. Coffee slide is great but I love the naked.


----------



## Stanic

I've already got an E61 naked PF, bought 2 years ago from the forum  I was thinking of Bianca then


----------



## borez

Thanks @DaveC for the detailed review.

Just checked with my seller, and they mentioned that MaraX shipments are still on track. They are looking to ship out the first batch sometime next week. Not sure if it's the same with BB orders.

Can't wait for my machine, but my seller tempted me with ready stocks for the Bianca..


----------



## jj-x-ray

Nice review Dave. 
On my wish list....

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


----------



## Stanic

borez said:


> Just checked with my seller, and they mentioned that MaraX shipments are still on track. They are looking to ship out the first batch sometime next week.


 Where are you based if you don't mind?


----------



## Bicky

If it wasn't for COVID19 and the fact it's out of stock at BB, I would probably have caved and ordered it by now!

Super jealous of you lot who've ordered it already ?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Same here. Given the current state of affairs and the global economy, new toys are out of bounds for me.


----------



## DavecUK

Bicky said:


> If it wasn't for COVID19 and the fact it's out of stock at BB, I would probably have caved and ordered it by now!
> 
> Super jealous of you lot who've ordered it already ?


 So let me understand you properly.

Covid19, your worried about an infected machine, or that the machine might be ill, you might be ill, BB might be ill, deliveries might be delayed????

It's out of stock so your not going to order it...thereby going to the back of any queue for the second wave of machines that people are already putting their names down for. I assume people are putting names down for the next batch, I dunno, don't get involved in that sort of stuff.


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Same here. Given the current state of affairs and the global economy, new toys are out of bounds for me.


 Ah, being retired, I have no worries about loosing my job...one of the benefits of not having a job. Can't wait for my bloody pension to start being paid though, just a few more months.


----------



## Bicky

My work services the hospitality industry, an industry that's going to have a hell of a time, so I'm a little concerned about my job in the longer term. I have young mouths at home to feed, it doesn't seem prudent to drop 1k on a coffee machine at this time.


----------



## DeepnGroond

Understandable...


----------



## Jony

Now now no one knows who does what and what affects it has got us into. But it does concern me.


----------



## Badgerman

Anyhow back to the Mara X, BB received stocks and shipping early next week for the early adopters.

Jurassic Park


----------



## Bicky

I'm not questioning other peoples decisions to spend their money by the way, each to their own, it's just not a good time for me.

The old faithful Classic will need to keep doing the business for a little longer ?


----------



## Stanic

I was lucky to cover the cost by selling some coffee equipment I had so no extra cost, however my income comes from various sources and is fortunately not affected by the current situation


----------



## DavecUK

Bicky said:


> My work services the hospitality industry, an industry that's going to have a hell of a time, so I'm a little concerned about my job in the longer term. I have young mouths at home to feed, it doesn't seem prudent to drop 1k on a coffee machine at this time.


 Totally agree and for many in my local area, they seem to be dropping 1k on toilet paper and Pasta.


----------



## armedcor

Woo! I was honestly expecting the Mara to be delayed for a few months! Should have it in a week or so


----------



## Jony

Hope it's not that good the V might have to go.?


----------



## Badgerman

Hopefully delivered on Monday from BB UK. Ordered a Rocket bottomless PF to go with it.

Apparently the factory is pausing manufacturing (understandable), so the next batch maybe some time away.


----------



## DavecUK

Badgerman said:


> Hopefully delivered on Monday. Ordered a Rocket bottomless PF to go with it.
> 
> Apparently the factor is pausing manufacturing (understandable), so the next batch maybe some time away.


 Which country did you order in?


----------



## Badgerman

DavecUK said:


> Which country did you order in?


BB UK


----------



## DavecUK

Badgerman said:


> BB UK


 Oh OK, I didn't realise they were getting there so soon, I assumed Germany because I think someone out there said a retailer got a test production unit before me??? I should have been 1st 

I've also decided to stop putting any more MaraX videos up, just so I don't annoy people who are waiting for theirs.

Perhaps I'll put some Elizabeth ones up....


----------



## Badgerman

DavecUK said:


> Oh OK, I didn't realise they were getting there so soon, I assumed Germany because I think someone out there said a retailer got a test production unit before me??? I should have been 1st
> 
> I've also decided to stop putting any more MaraX videos up, just so I don't annoy people who are waiting for theirs.
> 
> Perhaps I'll put some Elizabeth ones up....


Please keep the videos coming... people can choose not to watch. We can't choose to watch if you don't!


----------



## DavecUK

I spose I got to make the odd one for the new Mignon specialita, well it's not new, it's British Leyland brown, beaten up cracked hopper....but Eureka have definitely improved things a little regarding clumpiness.

Who chose that colour!!


----------



## Stanic

I'll gladly watch a vid on Elisabeth in the meantime ?


----------



## Stanic

according to Lelit, the official unveiling of the machine is on 21st of March


----------



## 17845

DavecUK said:


> I spose I got to make the odd one for the new Mignon specialita, well it's not new, it's British Leyland brown, beaten up cracked hopper....but Eureka have definitely improved things a little regarding clumpiness.
> 
> Who chose that colour!!


 I have the chrome version to match my Lelit Mara, very pleased with it.

Would love to see one of your reviews for it.


----------



## Boxerman33

Well the good news is that mine is being delivered on Monday, unfortunately i'll be miles away at home with the kids as the schools have shut and i have to work from home for 12 weeks ?


----------



## DavecUK

Boxerman33 said:


> Well the good news is that mine is being delivered on Monday, unfortunately i'll be miles away at home with the kids as the schools have shut and i have to work from home for 12 weeks ?


 Pity you can't change the delivery address...


----------



## DavecUK

hubcap said:


> I have the chrome version to match my Lelit Mara, very pleased with it.
> 
> Would love to see one of your reviews for it.


 I'm gonna do a tiny teeny review for it...if I can stump up the energy to do so. I have other projects on at the moment but I suppose with the country in relative lockdown, supermarket shelves cleared, it gives me something to do.


----------



## Boxerman33

DavecUK said:


> Pity you can't change the delivery address...


 I may have to add to my delivery drivers duties on Monday, assuming we're still working!!!


----------



## DeepnGroond

I wondered if the Lelit flow profiling kit works on the MaraX. Has this been tested already?'


----------



## DavecUK

DeepnGroond said:


> I wondered if the Lelit flow profiling kit works on the MaraX. Has this been tested already?'


 It will but i wouldn't bother...


----------



## damo

Landed in my kitchen this morning but Haven't had time to even open it yet !!!

I have rarely been that excited

Thanks for the review Dave, I read that over the week-end and it got me very restless


----------



## DeepnGroond

Jim Schulman's review at home-barista.com:

https://www.home-barista.com/r...lelit-marax-review-t63863.html


----------



## Jony

Any in the wild yet.


----------



## DavecUK

damo said:


> Landed in my kitchen this morning but Haven't had time to even open it yet !!!
> 
> I have rarely been that excited
> 
> Thanks for the review Dave, I read that over the week-end and it got me very restless


 Ah...you are in for a treat. I recommend BTP mode and setting O to start with...remember to turn off the stupid power saving mode! Also, remove the caution et al sticker from the group and clean any of the glue crap off before you power it up.


----------



## damo

DavecUK said:


> Ah...you are in for a treat. I recommend BTP mode and setting O to start with...remember to turn off the stupid power saving mode! Also, remove the caution et al sticker from the group and clean any of the glue crap off before you power it up.


 That's my Monday evening sorted !


----------



## damo

@DavecUK Why would you recommend the O setting ? isn't 92-91C on the low-end of extraction temps ?

I was thinking of starting in the "middle" and adjust from there ? let me know your thought

Am I also right in thinking that BB provided me with your user manual ?


----------



## Badgerman




----------



## DavecUK

Not my user manual, my tips are in my review. Yeah start at I if you want.

Nice looking machine isn't it.


----------



## Badgerman

It's ruddy beautiful.

Just primed the boiler (did the 45s) rest as you suggested Dave. It's just warming up now.

What are these counting 1-30 on the tank for









Also not sure if it's just a new gasket but I am more 7pm than 6pm with my new bottomless Rocket PF. Assume that will loosen up.










Very impressed with look and feel. Very solid and well made.

The caution hot sticker was a bugger to get all the residue off!

A few action pics




























Shame I had to dump my first 2 caps (don't drink caffeine after lunch!).

Excited about the morning.


----------



## Jony

Cannot believe you have them?


----------



## DavecUK

It's the 60 days total for the water filter you are not using. You move it one each day.

Nice machine isn't it... Hopefully your finding it to be everything I said it was. If it was my first prosumer machine I'd be thrilled. As it is, even a jaded old tester loves it.


----------



## Jony

Weary maybe ?


----------



## Badgerman

It's fantastic. So quiet, really quiet and agree with refined sound of pump. Unnoticeable.

Need to dial in tomorrow. Is 30 seconds (In 18g- 36g out) still optimal with the pre-infusion or should it be longer?


----------



## Jony

Your not making this good for me at all.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Badgerman said:


> It's fantastic. So quiet, really quiet and agree with refined sound of pump. Unnoticeable.
> 
> Need to dial in tomorrow. Is 30 seconds (In 18g- 36g out) still optimal with the pre-infusion or should it be longer?


Approx 30s (don't get too hung up on timing) from the moment you turn the pump on.


----------



## DavecUK

I usually go for 35, but see how it tastes and what you like best.


----------



## Badgerman

DavecUK said:


> It's the 60 days total for the water filter you are not using. You move it one each day.
> Nice machine isn't it... Hopefully your finding it to be everything I said it was. If it was my first prosumer machine I'd be thrilled. As it is, even a jaded old tester loves it.


Thanks. Yes I can't stop polishing it!

BTW a nice bonus was finding the 2 shot glasses in the tank. Not sure I spotted that in the review.


----------



## DavecUK

Badgerman said:


> Thanks. Yes I can't stop polishing it!
> 
> BTW a nice bonus was finding the 2 shot glasses in the tank. Not sure I spotted that in the review.


 I'll have to check the tank ?

I expect the shot glasses were from BB, my machine came direct from Lelit.


----------



## Stanic

drool ?

but you should have taken a pic with the sticker on the group just to annoy Dave for a sec


----------



## Stanic

is the portafilter handle easy to unscrew? what size thread, M12?


----------



## damo

This is as beautiful as it gets. First coffee this morning was horrendous ?
The grinder is also new so I need to season burrs and dial in. Also I am moving from a very basic set-up (modified delonghi + Smart Grinder pro) to a prosumer setup so will take time to adjust but I'm excited about the learning curve.


----------



## borez

Getting really envious!

BTW if I can check a few things:

1) Dimensions wise, could I check on the depth of the machine, and also the height from the E61 head (assume naked portafilter) to the tray)?

2) Accessories wise, is the grouphead silicon gasket 8mm?

Thanks!


----------



## Northern_Monkey

@Badgerman - BB included a shot glass when I got my Mara deluxe the other year, not in the old style tank though or I might never have managed to get it out in one piece!

Glad you are liking your new machine though.


----------



## Badgerman

borez said:


> Getting really envious!
> 
> BTW if I can check a few things:
> 
> 1) Dimensions wise, could I check on the depth of the machine, and also the height from the E61 head (assume naked portafilter) to the tray)?
> 
> 2) Accessories wise, is the grouphead silicon gasket 8mm?
> 
> Thanks!






























Not sure about gasket. Will measure when my IMS screen arrives from Robw.


----------



## DavecUK

8mm


----------



## Stanic

Could anybody take a picture of the water overflow output to the drip tray? Just curious how it looks.


----------



## Badgerman

Stanic said:


> Could anybody take a picture of the water overflow output to the drip tray? Just curious how it looks.


Is that the bottom of the e61?


----------



## Stanic

no under the front panel with output to the driptray



Badgerman said:


> Is that the bottom of the e61?


----------



## Badgerman

Stanic said:


> no under the front panel with output to the driptray





















This?


----------



## Stanic

Thanks, exactly that ?


----------



## Badgerman

Stanic said:


> Thanks, exactly that


I do notice more water in the drip tray than my Gaggia (400ml or so) for 6 cappuccinos.


----------



## Stanic

Guess that is because there is no return flow to the tank


----------



## mctrials23

@Badgerman How quickly are you able to knock out the milk based drinks and what is your workflow. I like the size and slow ramp up of this machine but I fear i would miss the positives of a dual boiler if I swapped to one of these.


----------



## Badgerman

mctrials23 said:


> @Badgerman How quickly are you able to knock out the milk based drinks and what is your workflow. I like the size and slow ramp up of this machine but I fear i would miss the positives of a dual boiler if I swapped to one of these.


Well I am still working to my old workflow for 2 cappuccinos until I experiment:

Warm up for 25mins with smart plug, cup warming
Grind 36gm into grounds cup
Weigh 18gm into pf. Wdt, spin coffee tool, tamp
Tare, start timer pull shot for 30 seconds. Put cup on warmer. 
Empty and wipe PF, Weigh 18gm into pf. Wdt, spin coffee tool, tamp
Tare start timer pull shot for 30 seconds
Empty PF and wipe
Steam blast
Steam 150ml milk (25sec), wipe wand and steam blast
Pour pants latte art
Steam 150ml oat milk (20sec), wipe wand and steam blast
Pour even more pants latte art
Wipe group head. Wait 15mins plus for next round and start at 2 again.

Can't say exactly time taken in total, but feels like I can be much quicker as could steam as I pour. I've been too busy admiring the tiger stripes to multi task on my first morning.

Taste is a lot smoother (milk better texture too) than my PID Gaggia. I've not used a DB, but not sure the MaraX would be rate limiting. It's limited by my workflow.

If any tips on the above, let me know.


----------



## Boxerman33

Mine arrived yesterday but only unboxed it today. Actually unboxing it was quite a battle, even the clumsiest of couriers will struggle to damage one of these in transit, packed like a Russian Doll, layer after layer after layer, must be £50 worth of packing alone!!! Real top quality in that respect. Nice touch finding two shot glasses and a bag of Milk Buster Espresso Blend beans too, Bella Barista's work no doubt!

Have mine set up as came straight out of the box, not played with any of the settings yet (will be refreshing my memory how to do so via Dave C's videos later). Was interested how it compared to my PID Gaggia Classic so it's using a Sage Smartgrinder Pro for now and Foundry's El Jardin Columbian beans. Grind set at no.12 for 17.8gms. Espresso was significantly more smooth, and the milk for the following Flat White was a revelation, so smooth and creamy I reckon my kids could do latte art with it!!!

So my initial impressions are that i'm delighted, being stuck working from home is not going to be as bad as i anticipated!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Stanic said:


> Guess that is because there is no return flow to the tank


That would drive me insane if I were using bottled water.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Stanic

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That would drive me insane if I were using bottled water.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 better not to then


----------



## Badgerman

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That would drive me insane if I were using bottled water.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am using Ashbeck. Can I return it to the boiler?


----------



## Gavin

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That would drive me insane if I were using bottled water.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Same. I love the look of this machine and the review but that one (small) thing would wind me up. Silly really.

Can any one of you lucky new machine owners comment on the difference in the cup compared to a PID classic with the expansion valve toned down?


----------



## Badgerman

Gavin said:


> Same. I love the look of this machine and the review but that one (small) thing would wind me up. Silly really.
> 
> Can any one of you lucky new machine owners comment on the difference in the cup compared to a PID classic with the expansion valve toned down?


Yep. That's what I came from.

3 coffees in I noticed a lot in a cappuccino with it being much much smoother and less bitterness aftertastes. No idea on better description. That's with Rave Signature blend. As mentioned above steaming is really easy and only getting used to the bitting point between stretching and texturing. My wife said the same about her oat cappuccino. Not tried any espressos alone yet.


----------



## Stanic

what temp setting are you at @Badgerman?

the "I"?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Badgerman said:


> I am using Ashbeck. Can I return it to the boiler?


Not that at this point in time even contemplating a new machine given the situation of the world and the travel & hospitality industry right now, but this is, in a way, a deal breaker for me.

I think the expobar lever had a similar design, but it was possible to use a PTFE tube and divert it back to the tank, if memory serves me well.


----------



## Badgerman

Stanic said:


> what temp setting are you at @Badgerman?
> the "I"?


Yep. Might try 0 tomorrow


----------



## nicholasj

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Not that at this point in time even contemplating a new machine given the situation of the world and the travel & hospitality industry right now, but this is, in a way, a deal breaker for me.
> 
> I think the expobar lever had a similar design, but it was possible to use a PTFE tube and divert it back to the tank, if memory serves me well.


 It's just a bit of water! Is it that important to you?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

nicholasj said:


> It's just a bit of water! Is it that important to you?


If I were using filtered tap water, no. If were using bottled water, yes, as this would equate to an extra bottle of water every couple of weeks.


----------



## DeepnGroond

It's a waste of good quality water, in the end. Pity.


----------



## borez

Badgerman said:


> Not sure about gasket. Will measure when my IMS screen arrives from Robw.





DavecUK said:


> 8mm


 Thanks all! Seems the height clearance is sufficient to place my thermos flask for morning brews! Can't wait for the machine.


----------



## Boxerman33

just put mine back to 0 setting as i think my espresso was smoother at that than at 1. It's definitely showing up some flaws in my grinding and/or tamping techniques, the initial wait for the shot seems to take 10+ seconds but then it's extracting much more quickly than i believe it should, maybe i need to go much finer on this than the Gaggia!!


----------



## DavecUK

Boxerman33 said:


> just put mine back to 0 setting as i think my espresso was smoother at that than at 1. It's definitely showing up some flaws in my grinding and/or tamping techniques, the initial wait for the shot seems to take 10+ seconds but then it's extracting much more quickly than i believe it should, maybe i need to go much finer on this than the Gaggia!!


 Yeah don't get fooled...the flow rate is half that of a standard pump it's why I go for pours of about 35s as optimum. There is around 30-35ml approx of water to fill the head space which takes about 8 ish seconds. The rest of the time is the delay for the coffee to collect in the portafilter and run down the coffee slide. So it can fool you as once that stage is over....gusher. The main difference compared to the Gaggia (assuming Gaggia was delivering 9 bar (unlikely I guess) will be the basket. Make sure you get your extraction exactly right before changing temperature, one variable at a time...


----------



## Boxerman33

you think grind finer then Dave? Even deciding which basket to use is confusing, always ground 18gms, but that could work in basket 14-18g or 18g-21g, using the small of those two as a starting point!


----------



## DavecUK

Boxerman33 said:


> you think grind finer then Dave? Even deciding which basket to use is confusing, always ground 18gms, but that could work in basket 14-18g or 18g-21g, using the small of those two as a starting point!


 I use 17g in the smaller double. Go for 30-34g out in 35s...depending on taste. grind finer until you achieve that. If you can use that exact same basket in a naked portafilter holder to ensure the shots running properly well before moving to the coffee slide PF. When you do move to spouted, end the shot a few ml before the target weight.


----------



## Boxerman33

right, i need to order decent scales too!!!! And for clarification, 35s from raising the lever or from the start of it flowing?


----------



## DavecUK

Boxerman33 said:


> right, i need to order decent scales too!!!! And for clarification, 35s from raising the lever or from the start of it flowing?


 Raising lever. Good enough scales can be had for £10, you need to weigh coffee in and espresso out.


----------



## armedcor

Hey guys and @DavecUK especially. I got my MaraX delivered to Ireland yesterday it's my first pump machine my last being a pavoni so maybe this is standard but I better ask anyway.

I'm still dialing in my grind so I've hit it with a slightly too fine a coffee once or twice and I've notice that it's pouring a lot of water into the drip tray as the shot is brewing.

I tried the blank basket out as well just to check and it reaches pressure No problem but at the same time there's a good amount of water just pouring into the tray at the same time. Is this normal with the x? I seem to be going through a fair bit of water.


----------



## armedcor

With a light roast I'm right around the 20 mark with my Niche


----------



## Badgerman

armedcor said:


> Hey guys and @DavecUK especially. I got my MaraX delivered to Ireland yesterday it's my first pump machine my last being a pavoni so maybe this is standard but I better ask anyway.
> 
> I'm still dialing in my grind so I've hit it with a slightly too fine a coffee once or twice and I've notice that it's pouring a lot of water into the drip tray as the shot is brewing.
> 
> I tried the blank basket out as well just to check and it reaches pressure No problem but at the same time there's a good amount of water just pouring into the tray at the same time. Is this normal with the x? I seem to be going through a fair bit of water.











This is the water use for 6 shots.


----------



## Gavin

armedcor said:


> Hey guys and @DavecUK especially. I got my MaraX delivered to Ireland yesterday it's my first pump machine my last being a pavoni so maybe this is standard but I better ask anyway.
> 
> I'm still dialing in my grind so I've hit it with a slightly too fine a coffee once or twice and I've notice that it's pouring a lot of water into the drip tray as the shot is brewing.
> 
> I tried the blank basket out as well just to check and it reaches pressure No problem but at the same time there's a good amount of water just pouring into the tray at the same time. Is this normal with the x? I seem to be going through a fair bit of water.


On the the MaraX the expansion valve dumps the water in the drip tray instead of back into the reservoir.

I don't think this is typical but it's to avoid the in-tank filter having to filter the same water twice....I believe.


----------



## armedcor

So would this expansion valve dump into the drip tray anything over 9bars let's say.

like when I'm using the blank basket it's just constantly pouring into the tray non stop. If that's the norm with the X I'm happy out just want to make sure.

it does make me wonder if the flow control would make any sense with the MaraX if that's the case


----------



## DavecUK

``



armedcor said:


> So would this expansion valve dump into the drip tray anything over 9bars let's say.
> 
> like when I'm using the blank basket it's just constantly pouring into the tray non stop. If that's the norm with the X I'm happy out just want to make sure.
> 
> it does make me wonder if the flow control would make any sense with the MaraX if that's the case


 By using the blind filter the dump into the drip tray is at it's highest. When doing a double shot it's 40-50ml, all in my review. It can be modded out but the effort isn't worth it. Just empty the drip tray each day....you should be anyway. When cleaning use a tupperware box (as you should be anyway), don't flush the cleaning water into the tray.


----------



## armedcor

Yea I read that review like a bible lol. I thought that 40-50ml was when warming up not every shot which it seems I'm at right now.


----------



## DavecUK

Here is how to clean


----------



## Boxerman33

Badgerman said:


> This is the water use for 6 shots.


 Notice you aren't using the supplied filter ? Any reason as i fitted mine automatically, no water test! (might raise some eyebrows on here)


----------



## Badgerman

Boxerman33 said:


> Notice you aren't using the supplied filter ? Any reason as i fitted mine automatically, no water test! (might raise some eyebrows on here)


I am using Ashbeck bottled.


----------



## Boxerman33

ah ok, just thought i'd check i was wrong to fit it. Hopefully our Harrogate tap water is fairly easy on the machine


----------



## Gavin

Badgerman said:


> This is the water use for 6 shots.


Seems like a lot. Looks About half or 40% of the 2.5 litre tank for 6 doubles.

That's about 160-200ml per 36g(?) shot.


----------



## DavecUK

Gavin said:


> Seems like a lot. Looks About half or 40% of the 2.5 litre tank for 6 doubles.
> 
> That's about 160-200ml per 36g(?) shot.


 OK time for some accuracy not speculation, as it's very unfair to Lelit and the machine. In the review I said :



> Expansion valve run-off is routed into the drip tray to avoid back pressure on the in-tank filter. The special modifications to the MaraX pump flow rate make it quiet and refined with a *beautiful gradual preinfusion*. A flow rate substantially less than standard pump under pressure means only 40-50ml of water enters the drip tray during a double shot, a worthwhile trade-off to have a neat tank solution with integral filter.


 I was *VERY* conservative about the impact of draining run-off into the drip tray during a 9.4 bar shot. *I actually gave a figure that was more than double the actual impact* just in case people using it started to get concerned. I went back through my notes for you and here are the figures (approx).

*Method*



Put water in drip tray then empty, *but do not wipe drip tray dry. *Gives more accuracy by pre wetting.


Replace drip tray


Place tall cup under group vent only


Pull shot 30-35s (17g coffee 35g output)


end shot


measure water in vent cup by weighing (after removing portafilter otherwise you will be about 5ml short), Measure water in drip tray by weighing. 1g equal 1ml (cold equivalent as water expands on heating, I didn't measure by volume)

Total Water from Vent after shot = 22.5ml

Total Water in drip tray = 15-20 ml depending on length of shot

Total water usage per double shot 37.5 to 40.5ml. 

*Total extra water usage purely due to venting expansion valve into tray with the pump used 18ml.* *Even if they routed the expansion valve back to the tank, you would only save a max of 20ml per shot.*

It's why I didn't bother trying to change the routing, the impact on water usage is insignificant.....I didn't want to put it in the review as I felt people didn't need that level of detail (or find it useful). Perhaps I should give an accurate figure for the impact of expansion valve routing rather than more than double what it really is?


----------



## Gavin

DavecUK said:


> I was *VERY* conservative about the impact of draining run-off into the drip tray during a 9.4 bar shot. *I actually gave a figure that was more than double the actual impact* just in case people using it started to get concerned. I went back through my notes for you and here are the figures (approx).
> 
> *Method*
> 
> 
> Put water in drip tray then empty, *but do not wipe drip tray dry. *Gives more accuracy by pre wetting.
> Replace drip tray
> Place tall cup under group vent only
> Pull shot 30-35s (17g coffee 35g output)
> end shot
> measure water in vent cup by weighing (after removing portafilter otherwise you will be about 5ml short), Measure water in drip tray by weighing. 1g equal 1ml (cold equivalent as water expands on heating, I didn't measure by volume)
> 
> Total Water from Vent after shot = 22.5ml
> 
> Total Water in drip tray = 15-20 ml depending on length of shot
> 
> Total water usage per double shot 37.5 to 40.5ml.
> 
> *Total extra water usage purely due to venting expansion valve into tray with the pump used 18ml.* *Even if they routed the expansion valve back to the tank, you would only save a max of 20ml per shot.*
> 
> It's why I didn't bother trying to change the routing, the impact on water usage is insignificant.....I didn't want to put it in the review as I felt people didn't need that level of detail (or find it useful). Perhaps I should give an accurate figure for the impact of expansion valve routing rather than more than double what it really is?


Thanks Dave. Maybe, your call I suppose.

Cool to see your method, I was hoping for some tech chat. 20ml does sound very small but maybe not in proportion to the water used each shot?

My numbers were total bull. I was just guessing looking at the reduction in the tank after 6 shots.

Also there's something about the phrase 'pre wetting' that makes me slightly uncomfortable. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

The total water usage per double easpresso shot including venting, coffee wetting, and expansion valve run-off (with it's 15-20ml) and the water in the shot itself, would be approximately 80ml, no more.

vs a standard machine you have to flush, that's around 75 to 105ml less water usage per shot (based on a 1 shot basis)

Now what a person uses, cleaning...who knows. When you look at a photo of a tank and someone says after 6 shots this is what's in my tank. 6 in a row, 1 shot, then clean then another shot later etc.. Did they use the hot water tap to warm cups, did they make a tea or americano with it. So many variables.

i'd just hate to see someone going to all the trouble of modding to save 15-20ml per shot..... 

P.S. Flow rate is less than half that of a standard pump was measured with it free running as most may do, but under pressure using pump curves, it's much much less perhaps 10-20% that of a standard pump. I don't want to say too much more as I know exactly what Lelit have done to get such a quiet machine. it's not fair for other manufacturers to start copying them.


----------



## armedcor

Alright so I pulled two shots this morning and decided to measure water just for the craic.

All measurements were from a pre wetted drip tray and where everything from the shot, opv water plus water that dumps after you finish a shot

My first shot I ground around 20 on the niche and it was too fine?! Ended up with my shot weight of 38g after 48 seconds. In the drip tray I had bang on 100ml of water.

My second shot was better grind wise but still a bit too fine. 38g out in 41 seconds. Water left in the drip dray - just under 80ml

I'm not bothered by the water in the least I mineralise my own so I'm not buying bottles. It was more a curiosity than anything as the X is my first pump machine.

I've read of people grinding for espresso around 11 on the niche so I am surprised how easily I'm choking it.

Overall though this machine is a dream and I'm delighted with it. I placed my pre order before I saw any reviews but seeing @DavecUK Review only cemented how sure I was this was the machine for me.


----------



## Cooffe

If you unscrew the Niche you can effectively "Zero" it where the burrs touch by unwinding the collar and moving the collar where the dimple is around - it's kind of on a ratchet system. Might just be that yours is knocked around to the right making it look as if it's on 20 (it could even be 20).


----------



## armedcor

Yea I made sure to recalibrate it yesterday so I had a good reference point! But you're right it's very easy to change on Niche by accident ?


----------



## Gavin

armedcor said:


> Alright so I pulled two shots this morning and decided to measure water just for the craic.
> 
> All measurements were from a pre wetted drip tray and where everything from the shot, opv water plus water that dumps after you finish a shot
> My first shot I ground around 20 on the niche and it was too fine?! Ended up with my shot weight of 38g after 48 seconds. In the drip tray I had bang on 100ml of water.
> 
> My second shot was better grind wise but still a bit too fine. 38g out in 41 seconds. Water left in the drip dray - just under 80ml
> I'm not bothered by the water in the least I mineralise my own so I'm not buying bottles. It was more a curiosity than anything as the X is my first pump machine.
> I've read of people grinding for espresso around 11 on the niche so I am surprised how easily I'm choking it.
> Overall though this machine is a dream and I'm delighted with it. I placed my pre order before I saw any reviews but seeing @DavecUK Review only cemented how sure I was this was the machine for me.


Quite a lot of water water per shot. Maybe because the grind was too fine it was hitting that pressure sooner.

Go coarser. Don't pay too much attention to the numbers on the niche. I use them just for remembering which grind for which coffee when I've got a few on the go.


----------



## armedcor

I really don't think it's bad honestly. If I had to flush like other HX machines I'd be using a hell of a lot more water when all is said and done.

With the X I can literally walk up and pull a shot and the temp is Rock solid.


----------



## Daugaard

Hi all,

Newbie here who's been eying the MaraX for some time as a replacement for my old overheating La Pavoni Stradivari. How would you compare this to a similar prices machine such as Profitec Pro 300? What would be the key selling points of the MaraX? It seems like you can get a similar sized dual boiler with great build quality for the same price.


----------



## armedcor

For me it was between the Mara and the pro300. In the end the Mara just really took my fancy, size was also important. The maras build quality is incredible and really solid I would have zero worries there. There's also the ability to retrofit the pressure profiling tap and the very quiet pump which were the key points for myself. I honestly think you'd be happy either way, one thing to keep in mind is who knows when the next batch of MaraX's will be available.


----------



## DavecUK

Daugaard said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Newbie here who's been eying the MaraX for some time as a replacement for my old overheating La Pavoni Stradivari. How would you compare this to a similar prices machine such as Profitec Pro 300? What would be the key selling points of the MaraX? It seems like you can get a similar sized dual boiler with great build quality for the same price.


 Can you link to a retailer selling the profitec 300 for the same price as the MaraX?


----------



## Daugaard

DavecUK said:


> Can you link to a retailer selling the profitec 300 for the same price as the MaraX?


 I'm living in Denmark (but the UK coffee forums are so much better than ours). So a Profitec 300 is around 1170 GBP locally https://www.kontracoffee.com/profitec-pro-300 and a MaraX can be ordered from Sweden (in stock now apparently) for 1100 GBP https://www.kaffecompagniet.se/103353


----------



## DavecUK

Don't order from the Swedish company, seems overpriced to me. £950 in the UK.


----------



## damo

Out of this thread for a few days because work is crazy

I was also surprised at the time it takes between pulling the lever and seeing the first drop of coffee (9 secs for me) then I get to 36/37g out in 30 secs (total)

Taste is good but not amazing so far. a bit sour but very acceptable. I realise I can probably go a bit finer then as my "30 sec" would be much short on another machine. Is this a fair assumption ?


----------



## DavecUK

damo said:


> Out of this thread for a few days because work is crazy
> 
> I was also surprised at the time it takes between pulling the lever and seeing the first drop of coffee (9 secs for me) then I get to 36/37g out in 30 secs (total)
> 
> Taste is good but not amazing so far. a bit sour but very acceptable. I realise I can probably go a bit finer then as my "30 sec" would be much short on another machine. Is this a fair assumption ?


 Yes, as said before on this thread....I found 35s to be optimum for 17-18g of coffee. The pump flow rate is half that of a standard pump when not under pressure, under pressure that differential increases, hence the nice smooth ramp up.

This does mean that filling the headspace takes slightly longer than you're used to and the infusion phase lasts a bit longer as it percolates through the coffee.


----------



## damo

Interesting ! I will try that. thanks


----------



## armedcor

I think the longer preinfusion really takes away any desire for myself to purchase the flow control paddle. Using predominantly light roasts right now and they're really spot on from the X so far


----------



## mctrials23

I do wonder how much of all the pressure profiling stuff is necessary for lighter roasts. From reading around a lot of forums, most people with pressure/flow profiling end up with a couple of profiles, usually ones that mimic a traditional spring lever and then a more traditional E61 pull for the medium/darker roasts. Then for lighter roasts the main thing you want is that slow pre-infusion which the mara gives.


----------



## damo

Sorry to divert from the profiling subject but I wanted to know what your cleaning routine was ? (it is my first prosumer machine)

I'm using bottled Volvic (aiming to get away from it because the plastic consumption freaks me out)

so far I've been doing group head brushing after each shot but no backflushing. Aiming at doing weekly backflushing with detergent like indicated in the user manual provided with the machine

Anyone advocating daily backflushing with water ?

What else do I need to know for general cleaning / maintenance ?

thx


----------



## Stanic

I'd certainly backflush with water daily, no hassle and worth it


----------



## njlhyde

damo said:


> Sorry to divert from the profiling subject but I wanted to know what your cleaning routine was ? (it is my first prosumer machine)
> I'm using bottled Volvic (aiming to get away from it because the plastic consumption freaks me out)
> so far I've been doing group head brushing after each shot but no backflushing. Aiming at doing weekly backflushing with detergent like indicated in the user manual provided with the machine
> Anyone advocating daily backflushing with water ?
> What else do I need to know for general cleaning / maintenance ?
> thx


I have upgraded my Silvia yet but this is my cleaning plan when I do.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## njlhyde

Technically the steam flush was when I was thinking about a dual boiler - Minima.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Daugaard

DavecUK said:


> Don't order from the Swedish company, seems overpriced to me. £950 in the UK.


 Good point! I must play the waiting game then. Or maybe just settle and pick up the Profitec 300 if this lockdown ends up blocking Italian export for a long time


----------



## Boxerman33

Scales arrived today, but i suspect i'm way out of where i should be. 18g into double basket, 35 secs extraction time (from lever up so 25 secs from pre-infusion if that makes any sense), 60ml (59.5g) into shot glass ?

Advice please!!!!!


----------



## jscott

Boxerman33 said:


> Scales arrived today, but i suspect i'm way out of where i should be. 18g into double basket, 35 secs extraction time (from lever up so 25 secs from pre-infusion if that makes any sense), 60ml (59.5g) into shot glass ?
> 
> Advice please!!!!!


 Simple, just grind finer to try and get 36g out in about 35 seconds - see if that tastes any better


----------



## DavecUK

damo said:


> so far I've been doing group head brushing after each shot but no backflushing. Aiming at doing weekly backflushing with detergent like indicated in the user manual provided with the machine


 1-3 monthly with detergent dependent on usage, lube cam and lever spindle after a detergent backflush.. Clean shower screen and dispersion disk every 2 days-5 days depending on usage....do it manually with a toothbrush and dish soap....be gentle.



Boxerman33 said:


> Scales arrived today, but i suspect i'm way out of where i should be. 18g into double basket, 35 secs extraction time (from lever up so 25 secs from pre-infusion if that makes any sense), 60ml (59.5g) into shot glass ?
> 
> Advice please!!!!!


 If you like a 60g shot great but in that timescale probably classed as a gusher. Start out by... 17g coffee in the small double they provide...30-34g output (whatever you like the taste of) in 35s from lifting the lever.

Obviously grind finer to get to this.


----------



## Boxerman33

thanks guys, going to be an interesting, and i suspect frustrating, time getting all this sorted. I think i'll hang off ordering a new grinder, already too many variables!!


----------



## DavecUK

Boxerman33 said:


> thanks guys, going to be an interesting, and i suspect frustrating, time getting all this sorted. I think i'll hang off ordering a new grinder, already too many variables!!


 What grinder have you got ?


----------



## Boxerman33

Sage Smartgrinder Pro


----------



## Boxerman33

next attempt, 38s shot, 34.5g, so a step in the right direction. Possibly a daft question, but i like a 60ml shot, do i keep the same ratios but just extract for longer?


----------



## DavecUK

Boxerman33 said:


> next attempt, 38s shot, 34.5g, so a step in the right direction. Possibly a daft question, but i like a 60ml shot, do i keep the same ratios but just extract for longer?


 It's tricky as you move further away from accepted parameters. Perhaps try for 60 in 40s, as the longer extractions just end up with the Puck fracturing or channeling.


----------



## Boxerman33

well i'm enjoying the learning curve, probably had 20+ coffees today, albeit of wildly varying qualities!!!!


----------



## damo

18g in / 37 out in 35 sec this morning but shot thin and sour .. Am I missing something here ?

I'm using a dark roast from coffee compass (Moka d'or) which I know really well and I know it's not supposed to be the taste in the cup.

Temp Setting on I

grinding finer and slowing down the shot had not helped taste-wise. Any idea ?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

damo said:


> 18g in / 37 out in 35 sec this morning but shot thin and sour .. Am I missing something here ?
> I'm using a dark roast from coffee compass (Moka d'or) which I know really well and I know it's not supposed to be the taste in the cup.
> Temp Setting on I
> grinding finer and slowing down the shot had not helped taste-wise. Any idea ?


Hmm.... in 2018 you have another post in this forum saying your coffee tastes "salty".

So, are you allowing the machine and the group to heat up? At least for 30 minutes?

If so, then it's most likely your preparation routine not being good. Maybe a video of your coffee preparation, from grinding to drinking could help?


----------



## damo

in 2018 I had a thermoblock machine and was struggling a lot

After loads of trial and error I managed to get some decent coffee with the thermoblock by griding very fine and using a higher temp setting and only drinking v. dark roast (moka d'or from coffee compass)

Now I'm using the same coffee and I find the result in the cup more acidic and thinner which is why I am really confused

1st shot this morning was after 25mn. maybe I should give it 40mn and see


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

damo said:


> in 2018 I had a thermoblock machine and was struggling a lot
> 
> After loads of trial and error I managed to get some decent coffee with the thermoblock by griding very fine and using a higher temp setting and only drinking v. dark roast (moka d'or from coffee compass)
> Now I'm using the same coffee and I find the result in the cup more acidic and thinner which is why I am really confused
> 1st shot this morning was after 25mn. maybe I should give it 40mn and see


Yep, a DeLonghi Dedica. Nice upgrade! 

Try that and see what's like.

Which grinder have you? What do you do for basket prep? How are you levelling and tamping?


----------



## Badgerman

That's the drip tray from heating for 1 hour, 4 shots (38gm in 40sec) and 4 steams. No flush or end rinse. Am I doing anything wrong?


----------



## damo

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yep, a DeLonghi Dedica. Nice upgrade!
> 
> Try that and see what's like.
> 
> Which grinder have you? What do you do for basket prep? How are you levelling and tamping?


 I will try to make a video at some point but I am short of time right now and I only have my phone to film.

Trying to describe my routine as accurately as possible. Grinder is Mignon specialita (new but I've seasoned with 2kg old coffee)

Grinding directly in the portafilter (using double basket but not the largest 20g). shaking it a bit to try and distribute grinds evenly. weighing 18g in. I use a toothpick to clear large clumps and give it a quick stir

Levelling using stockfleth technique. I do not have a distribution tool for now but will get one later

Trying to temp as flat as I can and trying to apply the same pressure every time (to the point of resistance but wrist not shaking)

portafilter in, start the shot with timer and scale 18g in / 37 out this morning in 35sec


----------



## Daugaard

Badgerman said:


> That's the drip tray from heating for 1 hour, 4 shots (38gm in 40sec) and 4 steams. No flush or end rinse. Am I doing anything wrong?


 Wow! Well I guess it's less water than you would have used for a cooling flush on other HX machines but still...


----------



## DavecUK

Well I modded the review a little to try and get the extra within the ballpark for all machines as there could be slight variations, machines set to slightly different pressures, shot lengths coffee types. I decided to put 35 to 50 ml extra water as a result of the decision (back closer to original estimate) + the 22.5 you get from the group vent after a shot, means a figure of around 50 to 70ml per shot depending on coffee type and shot time e.g. 27 to 37s.

If that covers all the variances, it means that after 8 doubles you might want to empty the drip tray. Very long shots will pull out more water from the expansion valve. Hopefully that covers it and if that amount of water is a deal breaker for some, then they can choose a different machine. Of course, they need to bear in mind that the usual HX cooling flush is around 3 to 4 Oz (90-120ml) and on hot HX machines even more.

P.S. If it's real critical, simply mod a pipe back to the tank....ugly but doable....I personally have not found it an issue in daily use but YMMV


----------



## John Yossarian

Badgerman said:


> That's the drip tray from heating for 1 hour, 4 shots (38gm in 40sec) and 4 steams. No flush or end rinse. Am I doing anything wrong?


 Could be a daft speculation but is it possible your expansion valve was set at lower than 9 bar pressure?


----------



## stickyz

First thanks for the detailed review!



DavecUK said:


> Don't order from the Swedish company, seems overpriced to me. £950 in the UK.


 Second, i am really annoyed all over Germany it seems like the price is 1200€ which fucked up my dilemma vs the ACS minima but at that price (which is 1060€+-)
I think it would be a much easier choice to go for the Lelit.


----------



## Badgerman

John Yossarian said:


> Could be a daft speculation but is it possible your expansion valve was set at lower than 9 bar pressure?


Thanks. Not sure how to check that. Any idea?


----------



## Badgerman

DavecUK said:


> Well I modded the review a little to try and get the extra within the ballpark for all machines as there could be slight variations, machines set to slightly different pressures, shot lengths coffee types. I decided to put 35 to 50 ml extra water as a result of the decision (back closer to original estimate) + the 22.5 you get from the group vent after a shot, means a figure of around 50 to 70ml per shot depending on coffee type and shot time e.g. 27 to 37s.
> If that covers all the variances, it means that after 8 doubles you might want to empty the drip tray. Very long shots will pull out more water from the expansion valve. Hopefully that covers it and if that amount of water is a deal breaker for some, then they can choose a different machine. Of course, they need to bear in mind that the usual HX cooling flush is around 3 to 4 Oz (90-120ml) and on hot HX machines even more.
> P.S. If it's real critical, simply mod a pipe back to the tank....ugly but doable....I personally have not found it an issue in daily use but YMMV


Thanks@davecuk, love my MaraX. Just wanted to check if I was doing anything wrong.

Maybe a good excuse for me to plump for the Osmio at the next group buy round too!


----------



## armedcor

Badgerman said:


> Thanks. Not sure how to check that. Any idea?


 Pop in the blank basket and see what the pressure gets up to. Mine hits 10 bar before the expansion valve starts going and stays at 10.


----------



## Badgerman

armedcor said:


> Pop in the blank basket and see what the pressure gets up to. Mine hits 10 bar before the expansion valve starts going and stays at 10.


Thanks will try in the morning. So nothing should come out into the drip tray until 10 bar and then stream out as long as shot is pulled.


----------



## Boxerman33

I reckon mine is dumping around a pint of water a day, when i turn it on it dumps some, and again when it gets to temp. Making around 8-10 drinks a day, sometimes i turn it off between shots, others i forget and it sits on standby. Probably dumps 40-50ml after each shot, but i'm not too bothered as using tap water so these are just observations, not complaints!

I hear the odd nose and what sounds like pressure relief valves opening from time to time when i leave it on as i'm working in the next room, never got up to actually look what's going on though, just assumed it was normal operation


----------



## DavecUK

The machine periodically burps the HX unit, part of the programming. I think if you want an Osmio @Badgerman you may have to start the ball rolling for buy 4. Especially with the way things are now I wouldn't hang about to get a 321 buy.


----------



## Badgerman

I backflushed it and noticed the water started to come out just at 8 bar









This is the moment I spotted water in the drip tray in my video. Is that normal ?


----------



## DavecUK

Badgerman said:


> I backflushed it and noticed the water started to come out just at 8 bar
> 
> This is the moment I spotted water in the drip tray in my video. Is that normal ?


 No it should only start to come out at 9.5 bar....this is why, you have more water in your tray that mine after a shot. Adjust your expansion valve up to 9.5 bar. *Assuming the max pressure your machine r**eaches is 8.5 bar. *

Watch my techtour video to see how to remove the case and the location of the expansion valve. You might even be able to do the adjustment just by removing the top, not sure. There is a vent tube on the top of the expansion valve that you don't want to allow to twist.


----------



## Badgerman

DavecUK said:


> No it should only start to come out at 9.5 bar....this is why, you have more water in your tray that mine after a shot. Adjust your expansion valve up to 9.5 bar. *Assuming the max pressure your machine r**eaches is 8.5 bar. *
> 
> Watch my techtour video to see how to remove the case and the location of the expansion valve. You might even be able to do the adjustment just by removing the top, not sure. There is a vent tube on the top of the expansion valve that you don't want to allow to twist.


Thanks, will do. The max pressure it gets is just under 10 bar


----------



## DavecUK

Badgerman said:


> Thanks, will do. The max pressure it gets is just under 10 bar


 Then you don't need to adjust the expansion valve?


----------



## Badgerman

DavecUK said:


> Then you don't need to adjust the expansion valve?


Thanks. Will leave as is and get an Osmio!!

You're costing me a lot@Davecuk


----------



## DavecUK

Using good water is cheaper in the long run and Osmio is super convenient.


----------



## holybean

any idea if rancilio silvia naked pf would fit this machine? if not, which pf might you recommend? thanks.


----------



## Badgerman

holybean said:


> any idea if rancilio silvia naked pf would fit this machine? if not, which pf might you recommend? thanks.


I love the Rocket bottomless PF from BB.


----------



## Stanic

holybean said:


> any idea if rancilio silvia naked pf would fit this machine? if not, which pf might you recommend? thanks.


 The ones compatible with e61 group


----------



## 17845

Badgerman said:


> I love the Rocket bottomless PF from BB.


 @holybean, +1 for the Rocket version, the handle matches the black plastic and chrome as well.


----------



## damo

I am getting some massive improvements taste-wise. I am obviously getting used to new grinder and new machine + I have been changing beans a lot as BellaBarista has kindly provided 2 bags of coffee to try
I am still really struggling with milk foaming as it is either too flat / not enough air or too much air and I have large bubbles / foam cap at the top of the pitcher - any tips

Also a question for @DavecUK maybe: I am now grinding fine enough to get 18g in/36g out in about 32/33 seconds however what I noticed in your videos is that you're stopping the shot at about 38 secs as far as I can see and probably around 14s until the first drop comes out of the portafilter

My coffee is much better than last week but still a bit think. Grind finer and longer shot time will do ?

This morning I nearly choked the machine (nothing out after 20sec - I stopped it) so I had to readjust grind and now I am probably not grinding fine enough. I find it the Specialita to be very "sensitive" to little changes on the screw - am I right ?


----------



## DavecUK

Yes I think the specialita can be sensitive as you get quite fine and it does depend on the coffee as well, some coffees need a much finer grind than others and there is a point at which you have to be careful a sort of tipping point between flow and choking. That really became much more noticeable to me when I started using pressure profiling machines as some profiles need a really fine grind.

You might find your current weights and times are optimum for that coffee, certainly the changes, if any will help, need to be quite small now.

The MaraX is a moderate steamer but at high pressure so steaming shouldn't be especially difficult (as it can be in machines that go really fast).....it will just be practice. In fact in my latest goody bag Lelit sent me some steam tips amongst other things like an LLC with new software for Elizabeth, they look to be different designs, so I'm going to try them out on MaraX when I get some more milk.


----------



## Boxerman33

interested to see how the steam tips perform, i'm getting mixed results with milk, sometimes spot on but other times not enough microfoam (too flat) , seems to be luck of the draw as i'm not changing techniques. Plastic packed mild from supermarket seems to be a little easier than the bottled stuff from the milkman! (using semi skimmed)


----------



## holybean

Okay, I can only read and watch @DavecUK's brilliant review so many times. I'm in the U.S. awaiting shipping on a MaraX and am looking for experiences to feed my fantasies about the machine. For those of you who are putting it through its paces, how do you like it? What do you like? What don't you like? Etc. Thanks.


----------



## gilesw

Please don't hate me as I'm a total newb. I have a gaggia classic at the moment that I found on the street and repaired but it just doesn't make consistent coffee and I'm starting a remote only job so I thought I'd treat myself. I love the look of the lelit but my mate told me to just get a sage barrista express. I have burr grinder already but it is noisy. Can someone explain what the lelit is going to give me over this sage device is laypersons terms if that's even possible? I see all this talk about the drip tray. I'm going to make one coffee a day probably, is that going to be fine?


----------



## Stanic

compared to that Sage, this is a "real" machine

not that sage makes bad coffee..but it is sort of your Tamron 16-300 mm plastic-fantastic zoom lens compared to a Voigtlander 50/1,2 prime 

the drip tray thing won't bother you with few coffees a day


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

gilesw said:


> Please don't hate me as I'm a total newb. I have a gaggia classic at the moment that I found on the street and repaired but it just doesn't make consistent coffee and I'm starting a remote only job so I thought I'd treat myself. I love the look of the lelit but my mate told me to just get a sage barrista express. I have burr grinder already but it is noisy. Can someone explain what the lelit is going to give me over this sage device is laypersons terms if that's even possible? I see all this talk about the drip tray. I'm going to make one coffee a day probably, is that going to be fine?


Which burr grinder have you?

It's like comparing a Ford Ka bottom of the range to a VW Passat mid range.

Both will take you from A to B. How comfortable and how it performs in your journey, that's the difference.

I suppose you can listen to your mate, or you can read up on this forum about user experiences of machines you want to buy. Also read up about e61 group head, Difference between Heat Exchanger and Dual Boiler Machines. Go to a shop, like Whole Latte Love, 1st Line equipment (US) or Bella Barista in the UK and see their ranges. Watch videos about the machines you like and compare them.

Sage Barista Express vs Gaggia Classic... I think I'd stick with the Classic.


----------



## Boxerman33

just made the same journey myself, don't regret it for a minute however, there's lots of trial and error involved!! Spent the last two weeks working from home so have got to know it a bit. Investment in scales is key (thanks Dave C) as otherwise it's hard to get a grasp of what's going on. Finally 'nailed' decent espresso from my Foundry El Jardin by grinding much finer than i ever did with the Gaggia, but have run out of that now and swapped to 'Milk Buster' from Bella Barrista and have had the back the grind right off from a 4 setting to a 10 setting on my Sage SGP.

Loving the learning experience and the machine looks super nice in the kitchen against the Gaggia.

I am emptying the drip tray at least once a day and make 6-8 coffees on average, combination of black and milk based.


----------



## DavecUK

Did you see my " morning coffee|" video about a grind table/grind changes on different origins and blends?


----------



## gilesw

My grinder is an iberital mc2 but i don't really like it. I'd like one where it would be easy to dial in different preset for different beans. Tx for the responses re the drip tray.


----------



## Blaven

holybean said:


> any idea if rancilio silvia naked pf would fit this machine? if not, which pf might you recommend? thanks.


 I have the proper Rancilio naked pf from Bella Barista, not a knock-off copy and yes, it does fit my Lelit Mara. I can only assume it would be ok for the X.


----------



## Boxerman33

DavecUK said:


> Did you see my " morning coffee|" video about a grind table/grind changes on different origins and blends?


 if that was a question for me then i'm afraid i haven't as yet! I've got this last batch dialled in really nicely but i only have 500g left then all in stock is 2kgs of Lavazza Rossa 'borrowed' from work!! Might get online shopping for something different!

Milk frothing remains a game of chance!!!


----------



## 24774

gilesw said:


> Please don't hate me as I'm a total newb. I have a gaggia classic at the moment that I found on the street and repaired but it just doesn't make consistent coffee and I'm starting a remote only job so I thought I'd treat myself. I love the look of the lelit but my mate told me to just get a sage barrista express. I have burr grinder already but it is noisy. Can someone explain what the lelit is going to give me over this sage device is laypersons terms if that's even possible? I see all this talk about the drip tray. I'm going to make one coffee a day probably, is that going to be fine?


 There's quite a budget jump from the Sage BE to Mara X! The £1000 bracket also has the ACS Minima which people rave about. ACS is a dual boiler, Mara X is apparently the pinnacle of heat exchanger machines. Have a read about what those terms mean, also if you are new to the game/not sure how much you will get 'into coffee', have a think about the learning curve, expense etc. Budget another £100 minimum for accessories (tamper, scales, storage jar, knockbox, maybe a funnel, water filter, cleaning tablets, (milk jug if you don't get the Sage BE).

I'm very new so there are others better placed to explain the major advantages of a the Mara X over the Sage BE. I would say 'better coffee', but assume you're looking for a bit more than that


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

gilesw said:


> My grinder is an iberital mc2 but i don't really like it. I'd like one where it would be easy to dial in different preset for different beans. Tx for the responses re the drip tray.


If you are on a budget, upgrade your grinder rather than the machine. You'll benefit much, much more.

If you have money for both, might as well get a MaraX too.


----------



## holybean

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If you are on a budget, upgrade your grinder rather than the machine. You'll benefit much, much more.
> 
> If you have money for both, might as well get a MaraX too.


 newbie here. based on advice here and elsewhere i upgraded my grinder from a rocky to a ceado e5p. I also added a pid to my silvia. espresso quality improved dramatically.


----------



## 24774

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If you are on a budget, upgrade your grinder rather than the machine. You'll benefit much, much more.
> 
> If you have money for both, might as well get a MaraX too.


 Hi, you seems experienced and not the first to say upgrade grinder is best bang for buck. Can I please ask, If I was to upgrade my Sage BE grinder, what do you think is the least I could spend and still see a nice improvement?

It would be for about a year when I think I will get something like the Mara X or ACS Minema and grinder to go with it, but I can't spend that grinder money now.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

CocoLoco said:


> Hi, you seems experienced and not the first to say upgrade grinder is best bang for buck. Can I please ask, If I was to upgrade my Sage BE grinder, what do you think is the least I could spend and still see a nice improvement?
> It would be for about a year when I think I will get something like the Mara X or ACS Minema and grinder to go with it, but I can't spend that grinder money now.


Trust me - there are much more experienced people here than me. I just listen to them, and took advice from them in my upgrade path.

What's your budget? Second hand an option? Do you care about how big and commercial looking it is?


----------



## 24774

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Trust me - there are much more experienced people here than me. I just listen to them, and took advice from them in my upgrade path.
> 
> What's your budget? Second hand an option? Do you care about how big and commercial looking it is?


 Very low budget, to the point I'm not sure it's worth it. £100? Could go secondhand I guess. Not too fussed what it looks like, would rather it wasn't too big. If new I'm wondering what the least expensive (but still respected) option is. I thought the Iberital MC2 was supposed to be good but in the last few days I've seen people say it's not great. New that's £127, I could do that if it was a significant upgrade on the BE grinder.


----------



## Badgerman

CocoLoco said:


> Hi, you seems experienced and not the first to say upgrade grinder is best bang for buck. Can I please ask, If I was to upgrade my Sage BE grinder, what do you think is the least I could spend and still see a nice improvement?
> It would be for about a year when I think I will get something like the Mara X or ACS Minema and grinder to go with it, but I can't spend that grinder money now.


Suggest you have a look on the buyers advice section. There are many posts answered similar to this. Basically get a niche or a second hand commercial grinder (Mazzer). Then come back and get a Mara X when supply chain is back to normal.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

CocoLoco said:


> Very low budget, to the point I'm not sure it's worth it. £100? Could go secondhand I guess. Not too fussed what it looks like, would rather it wasn't too big. If new I'm wondering what the least expensive (but still respected) option is. I thought the Iberital MC2 was supposed to be good but in the last few days I've seen people say it's not great. New that's £127, I could do that if it was a significant upgrade on the BE grinder.


The problem with the MC2 is the worm screw adjustment. It's a pain to dial in. So, if you change beans, to get to the ball park is not easy. Also retention is not greatest.

For £150 you might start venturing into used eureka Mignon or used Mazzer territory. I'd wait until the tat least. Keep an eye in the for sale section.


----------



## 24774

Badgerman said:


> Suggest you have a look on the buyers advice section. There are many posts answered similar to this. Basically get a niche or a second hand commercial grinder (Mazzer). Then come back and get a Mara X when supply chain is back to normal.


 Cheers I'll do that. Don't really want to get the Niche now, girlfriend issues with all the expenses lately, but maybe I'll see something in buyers guide.


----------



## 24774

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The problem with the MC2 is the worm screw adjustment. It's a pain to dial in. So, if you change beans, to get to the ball park is not easy. Also retention is not greatest.
> 
> For £150 you might start venturing into used eureka Mignon or used Mazzer territory. I'd wait until the tat least. Keep an eye in the for sale section.


 Oh, that lever you can over tighten. Yes I didn't like sound of that. I like an adjustment number like the Sage BE grinder or the Niche. I'd like a Mignon, they seem a bit much atm, but I'll defo keep an eye on the sale section. Thanks for advice.


----------



## Boxerman33

does anyone else with the MaraX think the hot water has a weird taste to it, just via the hot water arm, the stuff coming out of the grouphead seems OK. I've resorted to using a kettle now for americanos!


----------



## DavecUK

I always think anything from a new machine has a weird taste to it for at least a month and I make far more coffees than you, I also flush my boilers out 3 or 4 times with many many litres of water...bet you didn't. It's one of the things that's the biggest hassle for testing, washing/flushing a new machine out. As I often have 3 or 4 machines running at once, I can clearly taste differences between a new machine and one I have had for months.

The Elizabeth after 3 or so weeks is only just beginning to taste right.

If you really want to get Mara tasting right. get steam up to pressure, switch off drain as much as you can from boiler, switch on and refill, repeat 4 or 5 times and it will start to taste better.

Of course I will add, it's best not to use the machine as a kettle, either use an Osmio, or a £20 kettle.


----------



## Boxerman33

thanks for the advice Dave, i'll pull as much water through as i can. I don't use it as a kettle, but as it's on to make the coffee it makes sense to use the hot water if making americano

The Osmio has got me thinking to be honest, although the tap water in Harrogate is decent quality as a rule. Do people really notice a taste difference when using it? Any it would take a chunk out of my Niche budget too!!


----------



## DavecUK

Boxerman33 said:


> thanks for the advice Dave, i'll pull as much water through as i can. I don't use it as a kettle, but as it's on to make the coffee it makes sense to use the hot water if making americano
> 
> The Osmio has got me thinking to be honest, although the tap water in Harrogate is decent quality as a rule. Do people really notice a taste difference when using it? Any it would take a chunk out of my Niche budget too!!


 Harrogate has good soft water, the issue is the crap in the pipes, the flouride, the chlorine etc.. none of it adding to the taste in a positive way, or is it? Osmio will certainly purify, and act as a kettle...IF, control of other things is your concern. For me it is, YMMV.


----------



## Badgerman

Boxerman33 said:


> thanks for the advice Dave, i'll pull as much water through as i can. I don't use it as a kettle, but as it's on to make the coffee it makes sense to use the hot water if making americano
> 
> The Osmio has got me thinking to be honest, although the tap water in Harrogate is decent quality as a rule. Do people really notice a taste difference when using it? Any it would take a chunk out of my Niche budget too!!


I think the Osmio will taste amazing 

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/50701-osmio-zero-round-5/


----------



## DavecUK

Badgerman said:


> I think the Osmio will test amazing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/50701-osmio-zero-round-5/


 You mean taste of course!


----------



## John Yossarian

DavecUK said:


> I always think anything from a new machine has a weird taste to it for at least a month and I make far more coffees than you, I also flush my boilers out 3 or 4 times with many many litres of water...bet you didn't. It's one of the things that's the biggest hassle for testing, washing/flushing a new machine out. As I often have 3 or 4 machines running at once, I can clearly taste differences between a new machine and one I have had for months.
> 
> The Elizabeth after 3 or so weeks is only just beginning to taste right.
> 
> If you really want to get Mara tasting right. get steam up to pressure, switch off drain as much as you can from boiler, switch on and refill, repeat 4 or 5 times and it will start to taste better.
> 
> Of course I will add, it's best not to use the machine as a kettle, either use an Osmio, or a £20 kettle.


 Hi Dave, I am too guilty as charged for not running enough water when I got my V. I did run quite a bit but definitely not the amount you have recommended. Great advice indeed.

Yesterday, I filled a small coffee cup with water from the brew boiler and when I tasted it it was totally tasteless, which I assume is a good thing. I do remember pulling water from my HX Appia (5 l copper boiler), it always had a metallic taste.

Stainless steel is widely used in food industry for a reason.

Cheers,

John


----------



## DavecUK

true, although it's interesting that I cannot taste the copper from the copper boilers in the Crem One 2B. Have no idea why, perhaps different copper formulations?

Copper also does have an antimicrobial advantage over stainless.


----------



## John Yossarian

DavecUK said:


> true, although it's interesting that I cannot taste the copper from the copper boilers in the Crem One 2B. Have no idea why, perhaps different copper formulations?
> 
> Copper also does have an antimicrobial advantage over stainless.


 It does have antimicrobial action indeed but I would not expect anything surviving the boiling temperatures in both the steam and the brew boiler. ?

Interesting observation with the Crem One 2B machine.

I reckon you have experienced some metalic taste from other encounters, with other machines sporting copper boilers. Do people use brass for making boilers? I wonder whether the alloy would leave anything? Zinc is also considered antibacterial.


----------



## Flanners

Just placed my order for one of these. Will be my first (and possibly last) expensive coffee machine purchase.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Flanners said:


> Will be my first (and possibly last)


This is the top of the slippery slope... a good one though.

Great Machine. Enjoy the journey.


----------



## MancBlue

Flanners said:


> Just placed my order for one of these. Will be my first (and possibly last) expensive coffee machine purchase.


 Do you mind saying where from? most stores are closed at the moment and I've been waiting to pounce myself.


----------



## Crackazz

MancBlue said:


> Do you mind saying where from? most stores are closed at the moment and I've been waiting to pounce myself.


 HI, yes interested to know too .. can see BB is out of stock so not sure where else you can get these.


----------



## Jony

You could always buy the Minima


----------



## grumble

Showing as available here but you'd have to check on delivery times etc

https://www.espressounderground.co.uk/Lelit-Mara-p/pl62x.htm


----------



## Jony

grumble said:


> Showing as available here but you'd have to check on delivery times etc
> 
> https://www.espressounderground.co.uk/Lelit-Mara-p/pl62x.htm


 Maybe but £140 more gets you the minima, and I have never heard of the site.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Jony said:


> Maybe but £140 more gets you the minima, and I have never heard of the site.


Espresso underground has been around for ages.

I remember having a chat with them back in my Gaggia Classic days.

Never bought anything from them though.


----------



## grumble

I've seen discussion of them before and checked reviews etc. Pretty sure they are legit but maybe not as good service as BB.


----------



## rdmn

grumble said:


> Showing as available here but you'd have to check on delivery times etc
> 
> https://www.espressounderground.co.uk/Lelit-Mara-p/pl62x.htm


 Not available, I just asked them.


----------



## Badgerman

Bb said Lelit factory shut last month just before first batches arrived. Going to be awhile until new stock flows through unfortunately.


----------



## Gavin

Badgerman said:


> Bb said Lelit factory shut last month just before first batches arrived. Going to be awhile until new stock flows through unfortunately.


 How're you getting on with it Bagder?


----------



## Badgerman

Loving it. So easy and well built. Great coffee.

@davecuk I want to try to adjust the OPV to make it higher pressure (so less water comes out at 8bar). Is it this I adjust clockwise. Do I need to take the plastic tube off?


----------



## DavecUK

WTF, hold on, what is the pressure with a blind filter ?

Sometimes people get the spanner in there a bit quick.


----------



## Stanic

I had info they will restart production on the 6th of May, but at the german forum there is mention about rolling machines out next week..getting slightly excited


----------



## Badgerman

DavecUK said:


> WTF, hold on, what is the pressure with a blind filter ?
> Sometimes people get the spanner in there a bit quick.


Not touched anything, promise huv. Must be 9.5


----------



## DavecUK

Then leave it alone.


----------



## Badgerman

DavecUK said:


> Then leave it alone.


It's all sealed back up and I've walked away!

Looks nice in there though.


----------



## Badgerman

I have done a puly caff back flush after 6 weeks of use doing water back flush daily and taking the screen off. Do I need to lube it@davecuk?


----------



## Stanic

Mauro from Lelit posted this






I was surprised to see the amount of lubricant applied


----------



## Badgerman

Any recommendations for lube?


----------



## Stanic

Molykote 111


----------



## rdmn

Stanic said:


> I had info they will restart production on the 6th of May, but at the german forum there is mention about rolling machines out next week..getting slightly excited


 Edit: yeah I can't wait any longer. Planned on getting a MaraX but decided last minute to go with the Bianca. Should arrive in a couple of weeks.


----------



## Stanic

Thanks for editing the post above me


----------



## Stanic

a user on the romanian forum posted pics showing what he claims to be a boiler drain valve..

@DavecUK could you confirm it is there? that would be handy for descaling


----------



## DavecUK

Did you watch my tech tour 😊


----------



## Stanic

time to re-watch


----------



## Stanic

you mean the internal tour vid? can't see it mentioned there, but now that I know about it, I can see it in Jim Schulman's vid

looks like soldered to the Hx return pipe


----------



## salty

Stanic said:


> Mauro from Lelit posted this
> 
> I was surprised to see the amount of lubricant applied


Me too! It's interesting to see how it all works together but I prefer the video that DavecUK made a while ago.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Badgerman

salty said:


> Me too! It's interesting to see how it all works together but I prefer the video that DavecUK made a while ago.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Which one. Can't see an e61 lube video.


----------



## borez

Received my machine, and it's a stunning piece of art.

For those that have this machine, how would you account for preinfusion timings? The preinfusion seems to be longer than most machines.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Stanic said:


> Mauro from Lelit posted this
> 
> I was surprised to see the amount of lubricant applied


Make sure you protect the chrome! You saw how many knocks on the group it happened.

A few turns of electrical tape on the jaws of the spanner or some plastic protectors on the jaws will do the job nicely.

I also used to keep a towel on and around the group so, if I do accidentally hit it, it's not a direct knock.


----------



## Yas90

After plunking for a niche zero

And wife giving the go ahead on the lelit given its kitchen friendly form factor, I've decided on going for the mara x

Contacted bellebarista they have 36 on order, the Italian factory is now reopen but short on materials unfortunately so they arent sure when theyll receive the next batch of machines


----------



## Badgerman

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Make sure you protect the chrome! You saw how many knocks on the group it happened.
> 
> A few turns of electrical tape on the jaws of the spanner or some plastic protectors on the jaws will do the job nicely.
> 
> I also used to keep a towel on and around the group so, if I do accidentally hit it, it's not a direct knock.


How often do you think need to lube? I water back flush do a Davecuk screen wash every other. 4-6 coffees a day. Osmio water.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Badgerman said:


> How often do you think need to lube? I water back flush do a Davecuk screen wash every other. 4-6 coffees a day. Osmio water.


It's dependent on usage. For me, it was 2 coffees a day, and I did so every 6 weeks. What drove the lube was chemically backflushing the group.

For you, maybe every 3-4 weeks?


----------



## rdmn

borez said:


> Received my machine, and it's a stunning piece of art.
> 
> For those that have this machine, how would you account for preinfusion timings? The preinfusion seems to be longer than most machines.


 You mean when to start the timer? That's a matter of preference. Some start with the pump, others at first drop. The important thing is to stick with one method so you are consistent.


----------



## Stanic

Badgerman said:


> How often do you think need to lube? I water back flush do a Davecuk screen wash every other. 4-6 coffees a day. Osmio water.


 Some recommended to lube when the levette starts squeaking


----------



## salty

Badgerman said:


> Which one. Can't see an e61 lube video.


Here it is

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/e61-lubrication

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

When you use plastic jaw protectors, it's important to use them properly, most people don't and have issues. The hard fibre ones are better but you rarely see them now.

With plastic open the spanner "almost" large enough and then push it forward onto the nut, this will take up slack in the jaws and any small amount of movement or compression in the jaws. This will allow you to undo the nut without them slipping. When doing one of those nuts up, lube the thread and don't do it any tighter than the jaws can support. Sometimes a gorilla at the factory may do it too tight but usually the groups are pre assembled and the manufacturers use similar tools and tent not to overtighten.

Tape on a spanners jaws is not ideal.


----------



## Stanic

aargh, at least two more weeks still 🙄


----------



## Stanic

looks like a pretty massive blind basket

and I like that it comes with a 58,55 mm tamper

the included single basket looks like ridgeless, cool


----------



## damo

does anyone know what size the portafilter is ? I am planning to get a bottomless

I suspect it is 58mm but not 100% sure

do you know if this one is gonna fit ?

https://www.edesiaespress.com/lelit-58mm-bottomless-naked-portafilter-espresso-handle-triple-shot-21g-basket/

thanks


----------



## Badgerman

damo said:


> does anyone know what size the portafilter is ? I am planning to get a bottomless
> I suspect it is 58mm but not 100% sure
> do you know if this one is gonna fit ?
> 
> https://www.edesiaespress.com/lelit-58mm-bottomless-naked-portafilter-espresso-handle-triple-shot-21g-basket/
> thanks


Yep. That will fit. Looks a good price for a Lelit one. I've got Rocket bottomless and not used the spouted one as it's a lot easier to clean and tamp.


----------



## damo

Thanks Badgerman

Not a genuine Lelit portafilter but their own brand. I have seen good reviews online though


----------



## DavecUK

Badgerman said:


> Yep. That will fit. Looks a good price for a Lelit one. I've got Rocket bottomless and not used the spouted one as it's a lot easier to clean and tamp.


 All my standard 58mm bottomless portafilters fit fine


----------



## 17845

Badgerman said:


> Yep. That will fit. Looks a good price for a Lelit one.* I've got Rocket bottomless and not used the spouted one as it's a lot easier to clean and tamp.*


 +1 for the Rocket version (BB) handle matches as well.


----------



## trb08150

Have read this forum in it's entirety and thanks for your input @DavecUK. Really keen to treat myself and upgrade to one of these from my Rancilio V5 - feel I have outgrown this after 18 months and the inconcistency is incredibly frustrating.

This machine ticks all the boxes in terms on an upgrade, notably price and small footprint. Hopefully BB have some back in stock soon.

T


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE

Can I ask, does anyone know when the price at Bella Barista goes up from 950 to 1000? Thanks.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

Perhaps if someone asks them they will remember to do it 😜


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE

DavecUK said:


> Perhaps if someone asks them they will remember to do it


Ah. Yes. That. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Adam.f

now back to £999 at BB


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE

Adam.f said:


> now back to £999 at BB


Was that my fault? 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

If people are worrying about saving £50 when buying a £1,000 coffee machine, something is not quite right...


----------



## DavecUK

DRAXXMENVONE said:


> Was that my fault?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Perhaps they saw your post and thought.....


----------



## Badgerman

Only a few bags of coffee still very much worth it.


----------



## DavecUK

Badgerman said:


> Only a few bags of coffee still very much worth it.


 Yeah but we know who to blame don't we.....🤣


----------



## Stanic

damo said:


> does anyone know what size the portafilter is ? I am planning to get a bottomless
> 
> I suspect it is 58mm but not 100% sure
> 
> do you know if this one is gonna fit ?
> 
> https://www.edesiaespress.com/lelit-58mm-bottomless-naked-portafilter-espresso-handle-triple-shot-21g-basket/
> 
> thanks


 I'd also get the wooden handle for it if I were you

https://www.edesiaespress.com/replacement-wooden-portafilter-handle-solid-walnut-wood-m12-screw-thread/


----------



## Craigzad

DRAXXMENVONE said:


> Was that my fault?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Yes i'm blaming you ????


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> I'd also get the wooden handle for it if I were you
> 
> https://www.edesiaespress.com/replacement-wooden-portafilter-handle-solid-walnut-wood-m12-screw-thread/


 And the wooden spoon for @DRAXXMENVONE


----------



## borez

Hi all,

Realised my waste water tank has been filling up fast, and realised there's a stream of water spewing out while brewing. It's coming from the bottom of the waste tank, and not from the E61 group head drain chamber.

I guess this is normal?


----------



## jj-x-ray

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If people are worrying about saving £50 when buying a £1,000 coffee machine, something is not quite right...


5% is a decent saving....I'd be worried if people weren't bothered at all about saving money when spending a huge sum

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


----------



## Badgerman

borez said:


> Hi all,
> Realised my waste water tank has been filling up fast, and realised there's a stream of water spewing out while brewing. It's coming from the bottom of the waste tank, and not from the E61 group head drain chamber.
> I guess this is normal?


Yes. I find it's almost too full to manoeuvre to the sink after 4-5 coffees and maybe a back flush. Glad I've got an Osmio.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

jj-x-ray said:


> 5% is a decent saving....I'd be worried if people weren't bothered at all about saving money when spending a huge sum
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


I'm not questioning that. In the context of the MaraX, Would £50 stop you making the purchase, or make you look elsewhere?


----------



## gareth-za

A bit late to the party but does anyone know what the current lead times are for ordering a new machine from BB? Is it weeks or months?


----------



## borez

Badgerman said:


> Yes. I find it's almost too full to manoeuvre to the sink after 4-5 coffees and maybe a back flush. Glad I've got an Osmio.


 Thanks. Fortunately my tap water's very soft. But still a waste of water anyway.. I leave it for the plants (together with extra coffee residue goodness!)


----------



## Crackazz

gareth-za said:


> A bit late to the party but does anyone know what the current lead times are for ordering a new machine from BB? Is it weeks or months?


 I heard mid May but not sure. Would love to know too. It with all this activity and interest in the machine can see the price jumping soon


----------



## DavecUK

Crackazz said:


> I heard mid May but not sure. Would love to know too. It with all this activity and interest in the machine can see the price jumping soon


 For gods sake don't talk about the price jumping..... 😜


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE

If the price jumps it's now officially Crackazz' fault.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Crackazz

Noooooo.... why did I open my big mouth 😂


----------



## Stanic

It could jump down you know


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> It could jump down you know


 I don't think so, supply and demand....


----------



## Adibabi

Ohh dear, just read this awesome and very comprehensive review. Mrs is gonna kill me 😂


----------



## Jony

Adibabi said:


> Ohh dear, just read this awesome and very comprehensive review. Mrs is gonna kill me 😂


 Not if you are the Boss


----------



## jaffro

In a strange turn of events, I've been given the go ahead from the Mrs to get an upgrade... Need a small footprint machine that's not much bigger than current gaggia classic, so thinking the Mara X will be a safe bet when BB have them back in stock 😊

Unfortunately I live in a hard water area and don't have space for an osmio... The classic has been fine with britta filtered water and regular descales so far, but I assume something like a zerowater would be better longterm? Would really prefer not to use bottled water!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

jaffro said:


> In a strange turn of events, I've been given the go ahead from the Mrs to get an upgrade...


Alarm bells ringing! Watch her carefully, every move. There might be a plot you are not aware of. Or she might have a plan, where she will ask something and she'll remind you of "remember your coffee machine? I gave you the go ahead..." 

I'm thinking of the same. Negotiation of real estate in the kitchen has been very hard. For the moment, the La Pav & Niche remain inside a cupboard and only come out twice a day....


----------



## Craigzad

jaffro said:


> Unfortunately I live in a hard water area and don't have space for an osmio... The classic has been fine with britta filtered water and regular descales so far, but I assume something like a zerowater would be better longterm? Would really prefer not to use bottled water!


 MaraX water tank can use lelit filter would they not be better?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Craigzad said:


> MaraX water tank can use lelit filter would they not be better?


Why would it? A box standard resign filter, which will soften the water to a point, and in very hard water areas have a very short lifespan and questionable effectiveness vs the Osmio Zero water system, which is a full blown Reverse Osmosis system? Or even the Zerowater system with all the research done and 5 stage filtration (very expensive on the long run for very hard water areas IMO).


----------



## jaffro

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Craigzad said:
> 
> 
> 
> MaraX water tank can use lelit filter would they not be better?
> 
> 
> 
> Why would it? A box standard resign filter, which will soften the water to a point, and in very hard water areas have a very short lifespan and questionable effectiveness vs the Osmio Zero water system, which is a full blown Reverse Osmosis system? Or even the Zerowater system with all the research done and 5 stage filtration (very expensive on the long run for very hard water areas IMO).
Click to expand...

 Yeah this is what I'm thinking... My water is pretty bloody hard (total hardness is apparently 372.5mg/l). Wondering if I'll have to change filters on a zerowater every 4-6 weeks or so, which is relatively expensive on filters.

That said, I won't need the tds to be 0, as long as it's in a tolerable range, so might last a bit longer.

Open to any other suggestions though. Could just go to my local coffee shop and see if they'll fill up a 5l bottle every now and again...


----------



## Faffing

Hey all, new member, worked as a barista for a good while, but never invested at home.

this is all changing that and this machine is looking very promising, anyone find a good seller in Euros?


----------



## Badgerman

jaffro said:


> Yeah this is what I'm thinking... My water is pretty bloody hard (total hardness is apparently 372.5mg/l). Wondering if I'll have to change filters on a zerowater every 4-6 weeks or so, which is relatively expensive on filters.
> That said, I won't need the tds to be 0, as long as it's in a tolerable range, so might last a bit longer.
> Open to any other suggestions though. Could just go to my local coffee shop and see if they'll fill up a 5l bottle every now and again...


Get an Osmio. They are ace.


----------



## jaffro

Badgerman said:


> Get an Osmio. They are ace.


 Yeah I know, they look great, but unfortunately I can't afford a bigger kitchen, just a new espresso machine 😔


----------



## Rhys

jaffro said:


> Yeah I know, they look great, but unfortunately I can't afford a bigger kitchen, just a new espresso machine 😔


 What about a filter connected to your tap? A Brita or BWT fitted to your cold tap will give you filtered water, plus it'll fill the kettle as well..


----------



## Pleevus

Going to take the plunge and make a Mara X purchase, this thread has been a really interesting read.


----------



## Rob1

jaffro said:


> Yeah this is what I'm thinking... My water is pretty bloody hard (total hardness is apparently 372.5mg/l). Wondering if I'll have to change filters on a zerowater every 4-6 weeks or so, which is relatively expensive on filters.
> 
> That said, I won't need the tds to be 0, as long as it's in a tolerable range, so might last a bit longer.
> 
> Open to any other suggestions though. Could just go to my local coffee shop and see if they'll fill up a 5l bottle every now and again...


 Back in November 2017 I bought an all stainless steel water distiller for £55 (no plastic in the internals of the condenser part, no plastic on the end of the pipe).

A platinum cured teflon tube for about £10

And a Demijohn for about £8

I attached the teflon tube to the end of the condenser coil, and it goes from the table into a glass demijohn on the floor.

Still going strong at just over 3 litres per week.

I put it on a timer and set it to run for 3 hours 10 minutes so it doesn't boil dry. It needs descaling a couple of times per year which is a very simple process of filling it with water and adding citric acid and letting it heat up.

It's more of a hands on process, and you have to be aware of when you're running out of water so you can produce more, but it's a cheap way to get started.


----------



## jaffro

Rhys said:


> What about a filter connected to your tap? A Brita or BWT fitted to your cold tap will give you filtered water, plus it'll fill the kettle as well..


 Yeah actually not a bad point. I didnt think the bwt jugs would drop the tds low enough, but I should really look into the built in filters. Might be a meat way of achieving something worthwhile 😊



Rob1 said:


> Back in November 2017 I bought an all stainless steel water distiller for £55 (no plastic in the internals of the condenser part, no plastic on the end of the pipe).
> 
> A platinum cured teflon tube for about £10
> 
> And a Demijohn for about £8
> 
> I attached the teflon tube to the end of the condenser coil, and it goes from the table into a glass demijohn on the floor.
> 
> Still going strong at just over 3 litres per week.
> 
> I put it on a timer and set it to run for 3 hours 10 minutes so it doesn't boil dry. It needs descaling a couple of times per year which is a very simple process of filling it with water and adding citric acid and letting it heat up.
> 
> It's more of a hands on process, and you have to be aware of when you're running out of water so you can produce more, but it's a cheap way to get started.


 Haha that's actually such a great idea. Still sounds too big, but sounds like something I wouldn't mind keeping in the shed! Might have a look...


----------



## Rob1

The distillers are tiny tabletop things but yeah very suitable for being stowed away in sheds, cupboards, what have you.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Rob1 said:


> The distillers are tiny tabletop things but yeah very suitable for being stowed away in sheds, cupboards, what have you.


Do you have a link to one Rob?


----------



## Rob1

Afraid not. I got mine from ebay. Had a quick search and they look like they've gone up a little probably because of doomsday preppers.

This one is very similar.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4L-Stainless-Steel-Water-Distiller-Medical-Home-Labs-Internal-Pure-Water-Filter/362881301012?hash=item547d693a14:g:AYgAAOSw0Z9dFJ9g


----------



## Jollybean

Great idea. Do you add any minerals to the distilled water Rob?


----------



## Rob1

Yes. But let's not get into that here.


----------



## Bicky

Interestingly back down to £949 on BB (while still being out of stock) 👀


----------



## jaffro

Bicky said:


> Interestingly back down to £949 on BB (while still being out of stock) 👀


 Ooh I'll be all over that as soon as they're back in... I'll keep refreshing the page 😉


----------



## Craigzad

jaffro said:


> Ooh I'll be all over that as soon as they're back in... I'll keep refreshing the page 😉


 ive done the subscribe to back in stock notification 🤞


----------



## Zoltan

@DavecUK

I would like to ask that what do you think which grinder would be better with the MaraX, Eureka Mignon Specialita or Niche Zero?

I have a Sage Smart Grinder Pro at the moment but I guess I'll need to upgrade it.

Thank you very much.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Zoltan said:


> @DavecUK
> I would like to ask that what do you think which grinder would be better with the MaraX, Eureka Mignon Specialita or Niche Zero?
> I have a Sage Smart Grinder Pro at the moment but I guess I'll need to upgrade it.
> 
> Thank you very much.


You need to ask yourself.... do you want hopper fed or single dosing?


----------



## Zoltan

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You need to ask yourself.... do you want hopper fed or single dosing?


 To be honest I don't really mind. Normally I dose single and keep my beans in Airscape canisters.

I meant that is the Mignon Specialita grinder doing nice job for MaraX and is it a true upgrade after Sage Smart Grinder Pro or better go for the Niche?

I use light-medium, medium roast beans mostly.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Zoltan said:


> To be honest I don't really mind. Normally I dose single and keep my beans in Airscape canisters.
> I meant that is the Mignon Specialita grinder doing nice job for MaraX and is it a true upgrade after Sage Smart Grinder Pro or better go for the Niche?
> I use light-medium, medium roast beans mostly.


If you single dose.... you shouldn't be buying the Mignon specialità. It's a hopper fed grinder.


----------



## ngldns81

Faffing said:


> Hey all, new member, worked as a barista for a good while, but never invested at home.
> 
> this is all changing that and this machine is looking very promising, anyone find a good seller in Euros?


 Hi @Faffing, I think if you send La Macchina del Caffe a message they might offer you an even better price than what is listed here (1.090 EUR for MaraX). I've bought from them (Lelit accessories only) and they've been great, with clear and transparent communication.


----------



## Zoltan

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If you single dose.... you shouldn't be buying the Mignon specialità. It's a hopper fed grinder.


 Does it worth so much £s extra? I'm not really into grinders, just don't know them 🙄


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Zoltan said:


> Does it worth so much £s extra? I'm not really into grinders, just don't know them


As I said many times over....

If you want an entry level, electric, single dose grinder... buy the niche.

If you want an entry level grinder, hopper fed, electric, buy the specialitá.

You need to decide what you want. If it were me (I had both, I prefer single dose) I'd buy the Niche.

Edit:

(I think I'm going to create an excerpt of this text, with more details and hen just copy/paste every time someone asks the question). I must have repeated myself more than enough in the past few weeks.


----------



## Faffing

Thanks @ngldns81, Ill give them a shout

Found it for 990€ here too https://www.ecafe.es/tienda/cafeteras/685-lelit-marax-pl62x.html


----------



## Zoltan

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Edit:
> 
> (I think I'm going to create an excerpt of this text, with more details and hen just copy/paste every time someone asks the question). I must have repeated myself more than enough in the past few weeks.


 That's a good idea 

As you mentioned 'single dose' and 'hopper fed' I've googled pros and cons. Now I understand what you meant. I deffo need a single dose grinder.

Thanks.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Zoltan said:


> That's a good idea
> As you mentioned 'single dose' and 'hopper fed' I've googled pros and cons. Now I understand what you meant. I deffo need a single dose grinder.
> Thanks.


Ha! Yes! It's great. No retention, can change beans as you wish, use different brew methods, etc. For the home environment, it's a winner.


----------



## Yas90

Faffing said:


> Thanks @ngldns81, Ill give them a shout
> 
> Found it for 990€ here too https://www.ecafe.es/tienda/cafeteras/685-lelit-marax-pl62x.html


 Quite the saving over BB

Anyone got experience buying from them? And how would the warranty work


----------



## johnealey

@Yas90

Am assuming would be an European warranty so either return to Spain or they may even point you back to the manufacturer, neither is without problems / delays etc. What you are intrinsically getting with BB is a local experienced seller who actively support their own sales so if you have an issue under warranty, call them and the ball starts roiling very quickly as they are carrying out the warranty themselves (hence additional cost). Box sellers do not do this and will, please read up some tales of woe on here, try their very hardest not to get involved.

Have only positive experiences with BB and have had to make use of a warranty claim only once (warranties also transferable with BB, not always so with box shifters) for an issue with the paddle section on a gene roaster: call made, photo taken, part sent out in that nights post, recorded delivery received following morning. Stunning!

You pays your money you takes your choice (ish or should that be chance), all for saving money don't get me wrong but...

Hope of help

John


----------



## Badgerman

+1. Good to support local(ish) sellers too.

Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## Adam.f

Yas90 said:


> Quite the saving over BB
> 
> Anyone got experience buying from them? And how would the warranty work


 Just to be aware You will be hit with a customs charge/duty and tax charge coming into the U.K.

if it is a gift, and value is below £135 no customs charge, if over £135 to about £600 there is about 2.5% charge. Over £600 it will depend on the item.

companies will NOT/should not send the item if you ask them to describe as gift so don't ask as customs will check. By the time you have received the item you don't really save anything, plus some warranties don't hold up very well (this does depend on the company, but you would have to send it off to them which will be a pig if you have trouble with it and would be hit with more extra courier charges)

best to stay local


----------



## Yas90

BB it is

Haha


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE

Adam.f said:


> Just to be aware You will be hit with a customs charge/duty and tax charge coming into the U.K.
> if it is a gift, and value is below £135 no customs charge, if over £135 to about £600 there is about 2.5% charge. Over £600 it will depend on the item.
> companies will NOT/should not send the item if you ask them to describe as gift so don't ask as customs will check. By the time you have received the item you don't really save anything, plus some warranties don't hold up very well (this does depend on the company, but you would have to send it off to them which will be a pig if you have trouble with it and would be hit with more extra courier charges)
> best to stay local


Are we subject to VAT and import charges from the EU yet? I thought that was next year?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Adam.f

DRAXXMENVONE said:


> Are we subject to VAT and import charges from the EU yet? I thought that was next year?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Yes that is next year for VAT. But you would still have Custom charges duty and tax. The tax is a mandatory/compulsory charge imposed by the government, where as VAT is a type of tax which could/will be incurred next year when we move out of the EU, we will see what happens.


----------



## DRAXXMENVONE

Adam.f said:


> Yes that is next year for VAT. But you would still have Custom charges duty and tax. The tax is a mandatory/compulsory charge imposed by the government, where as VAT is a type of tax which could/will be incurred next year when we move out of the EU, we will see what happens.


I had a custom snowboard built and shipped from Barcelona last year. It was hundreds of £. There were no charges whatsoever! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Unless I'm very much mistaken, there's no HM customs charges, nor VAT for items within the EU at the moment. Next year, who knows.


----------



## Aamz23

£949 on BB and with exchange rate its not much more and from a UK dealer too? I would buy it from BB personally


----------



## Agentb

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Unless I'm very much mistaken, there's no HM customs charges, nor VAT for items within the EU at the moment. Next year, who knows.


 correct...

https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Adam.f said:


> Yes that is next year for VAT. But you would still have Custom charges duty and tax. The tax is a mandatory/compulsory charge imposed by the government, where as VAT is a type of tax which could/will be incurred next year when we move out of the EU, we will see what happens.





MediumRoastSteam said:


> Unless I'm very much mistaken, there's no HM customs charges, nor VAT for items within the EU at the moment. Next year, who knows.





Agentb said:


> correct...
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty


Adam.f - for your info.


----------



## Craigzad

Maybe time to get get slightly more excited spotted on instagram 😎😮


----------



## Badgerman

Quick get in there before they sell out again. I think they had 12 in the first batch.

Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## robti

Craigzad said:


> Maybe time to get get slightly more excited spotted on instagram 😎😮
> 
> View attachment 39378


 argh let everyone know


----------



## Zoltan

Hi everyone,

Which precision filter basket would you recommend to the Lelit Mara machines? What's your experience. Eg. IMS or VST, flat bottom or convex, 68 or 70mm etc.. I'm new to HX and E61 machines completely lost again 🙄


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Zoltan said:


> Hi everyone,
> Which precision filter basket would you recommend to the Lelit Mara machines? What's your experience. Eg. IMS or VST, flat bottom or convex, 68 or 70mm etc.. I'm new to HX and E61 machines completely lost again


 VST are, as far as I know, far more finically than IMS. With VST, you either get it right or you don't. Personally, I think VST are the "de facto" standard if you want a precision basket. Start with an 18g VST and then invest on a 15g or 20g. I had the 15g and 18g - much preferred the 18g. Your dosing, distribution, levelling and tamping technique has to be spot on. You'll learn fast. 

As for tampers, get a 58.5mm flat tamper.


----------



## Zoltan

MediumRoastSteam said:


> VST are, as far as I know, far more finically than IMS. With VST, you either get it right or you don't. Personally, I think VST are the "de facto" standard if you want a precision basket. Start with an 18g VST and then invest on a 15g or 20g. I had the 15g and 18g - much preferred the 18g. Your dosing, distribution, levelling and tamping technique has to be spot on. You'll learn fast.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for tampers, get a 58.5mm flat tamper.


 Thanks.

I have an IMS precision basket (with naked portafilter) what I use with a Sage Duo Temp Pro. It has definitely improved my leveling and distributing. I'll go for 18g one as I normally dose that amount of beans.

Than I decided to upgrade my kit to a MaraX and a better grinder. And still new accessories. A HX, E61 is a big jump (for me) from Sage DTP so I need many ideas  As a 58.5mm tamper. Thanks.

But still confused if I'd need a 68 or 70mm basket for MaraX. Can't find any information about that.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Zoltan said:


> Thanks.
> I have an IMS precision basket (with naked portafilter) what I use with a Sage Duo Temp Pro. It has definitely improved my leveling and distributing. I'll go for 18g one as I normally dose that amount of beans.
> Than I decided to upgrade my kit to a MaraX and a better grinder. And still new accessories. A HX, E61 is a big jump (for me) from Sage DTP so I need many ideas  As a 58.5mm tamper. Thanks.
> But still confused if I'd need a 68 or 70mm basket for MaraX. Can't find any information about that.


Sorry I don't know what a 68mm or 70mm basket is.

The basket needs to be suitable for a 58mm group. That's all it matters.


----------



## Badgerman

My vote for a VST 18gm ridgeless and bottomless PF. Helps you train your technique.

Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## Zoltan

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Sorry I don't know what a 68mm or 70mm basket is.
> 
> The basket needs to be suitable for a 58mm group. That's all it matters.


 Sorry. I meant edge to edge or border diameter.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Zoltan said:


> Sorry. I meant edge to edge or border diameter.


Er.....

58 is the magic number here. Granted when you include the border it's wider, but it's irrelevant for all intents and purposes.

I don't know where you are getting those other numbers from.

Buy any E61 group compatible basket (58mm).

As said above, I'd highly recommend a VST 18g ridgeless (so you can pop in and out of the PF easily).


----------



## Zoltan

MediumRoastSteam said:


> 58 is the magic number here. Granted when you include the border it's wider, but it's irrelevant for all intents and purposes.
> 
> I don't know where you are getting those other numbers from.
> 
> Buy any E61 group compatible basket (58mm).


 These numbers 

But got it, I can't go wrong with a VST 18g basket.


----------



## Stanic

Yeah that's the outer diameter. Useful when you're looking for baskets for brew systems with different dimensions and sometimes that's the only number you can get, but the VST ones only come for the 58mm system.


----------



## 2953

How powerful is the steaming on this?

I'm upgrading from a Piccino and was all set on the Minima but it's out of stock, possibly permanently at Bella Barista, so am now eyeing up this. I'm not a big tinkerer so walk up weigh in, weigh out, time it and drink. Two or so doubles a day nearly all the time with milk so either machine would be okay for me I think so I suppose it's down to any difference in steaming between the two. The Minima's sposed to be great but the Mara X not so much???


----------



## brisk

Hello all

Those that have this machine does the water from your hot water wand have a brownish tint to it? 
Brew group water seems fine I think but just the hot water wand.

I am using softened water.

Thanks!


----------



## Badgerman

petebetros said:


> How powerful is the steaming on this?
> I'm upgrading from a Piccino and was all set on the Minima but it's out of stock, possibly permanently at Bella Barista, so am now eyeing up this. I'm not a big tinkerer so walk up weigh in, weigh out, time it and drink. Two or so doubles a day nearly all the time with milk so either machine would be okay for me I think so I suppose it's down to any difference in steaming between the two. The Minima's sposed to be great but the Mara X not so much???


It's way better than my latte art skills, does a small jug in 20 seconds or so. It's perfect for walking up and using. No tinkering needed. 









Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## aganov

Available on BB!


----------



## 2953

Badgerman said:


> It's way better than my latte art skills, does a small jug in 20 seconds or so. It's perfect for walking up and using. No tinkering needed.


 Thanks for the reply - just ordered myself one as instock on Bellabarista now....


----------



## Jony

Sure is be quick


----------



## jaffro

petebetros said:


> Thanks for the reply - just ordered myself one as instock on Bellabarista now....


 Yeah I just snagged one too... 😊


----------



## Stanic

brisk said:


> Hello all
> 
> Those that have this machine does the water from your hot water wand have a brownish tint to it?
> Brew group water seems fine I think but just the hot water wand.
> 
> I am using softened water.
> 
> Thanks!


 how much water did you flush with?


----------



## Adibabi

And it's on order! Very excited now


----------



## robti

And add me to the list of new owners, now to wait for delivery 🤯, can I ask is there a quick set up guide to get me up and running or do I need to read this thread again, also anything else I need for it, coming from a gagging classic ?

Thanks


----------



## Craigzad

Order placed 😍🤘


----------



## jaffro

robti said:


> And add me to the list of new owners, now to wait for delivery 🤯, can I ask is there a quick set up guide to get me up and running or do I need to read this thread again, also anything else I need for it, coming from a gagging classic ?
> 
> Thanks


 Similar for me - I was half way through fixing my gaggia classic and thought I'd just upgrade...

DaveC seemed to say in his review that it was pretty much fill it up and go.

Only thing I'll be missing for it is a bottomless portafilter. Think I'll have to wait a few months before I spend more money on coffee-related items, otherwise I'll be single in no time.


----------



## Yas90

Welp pulled the trigger

Now to hunt for some wooden knobs and handles

And a bottomless portafilter


----------



## robti

Well ordered at 8.50 this morning and just got 2 emails one saying shipped and second from FedEx with tracking for delivery tomorrow 🤩


----------



## Badgerman

It's like Christmas Eve again for you guys. I would check the black handles first. The look and feel great.

Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## jaffro

robti said:


> Well ordered at 8.50 this morning and just got 2 emails one saying shipped and second from FedEx with tracking for delivery tomorrow 🤩


 Aah I ordered at 9:10 and no such luck for me yet... Encouraging that they're so quick with it though, hopefully won't be too long for me 😊


----------



## Aamz23

I am so tempted. However need a grinder. The niche has a july shopping date. Is there any other grinder for around the same price or cheaper that is as good and available?

ill have to sell my sage BE too!


----------



## robti

I was on the fence between this and a new tv, got the tv on Friday and wasn't going to order then my phone alarm went at 8.50 I had set it when Claudette told me they were due in a while back so jumped in 😂


----------



## Yas90

Aamz23 said:


> I am so tempted. However need a grinder. The niche has a july shopping date. Is there any other grinder for around the same price or cheaper that is as good and available?
> 
> ill have to sell my sage BE too!


 Did the same

Sold my BE

Very suprised by the interest when I did

Got £250 for it and it was 2 years old. Have a feeling I could have got a little more


----------



## Jony

robti said:


> I was on the fence between this and a new tv, got the tv on Friday and wasn't going to order then my phone alarm went at 8.50 I had set it when Claudette told me they were due in a while back so jumped in 😂


 I'm getting a new TV, been reading a lot about TCL 8k mini Led. Thee 3rd biggest TV company 📺


----------



## Jony

Aamz23 said:


> I am so tempted. However need a grinder. The niche has a july shopping date. Is there any other grinder for around the same price or cheaper that is as good and available?
> 
> ill have to sell my sage BE too!


 They be all sold with in 3 days


----------



## Aamz23

Jony said:


> They be all sold with in 3 days


 Yeah and therein lies the problem. I havent decided on a grinder yet as i havent done much research and the mara x would be a spir of the moment purchase


----------



## Stanic

Just go with the animal in you 😁


----------



## Jony

Get the machine and then ponder on the Grinder


----------



## brisk

Stanic said:


> how much water did you flush with?


 I am not sure if I can call it a flush, but I went through about 8 containers/reservoir worth of water.

Is there something else I should be doing?

Thank you.


----------



## Stanic

That's definitely enough. Maybe check if you get any residue in the cup after that water evaporates? Share pic for diagnosis..


----------



## brisk

I am pretty sure there was no residue...but I never let it evaporate.

I'll pour some out take a pic and let it evaporate.


----------



## Faffing

A dealer I've been chatting to has offered me a used ECM Elektronika for 800 or so, comes with 12 month warranty but obvs is used.

Any thoughts as to the benefit of the Mara X in comparison?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Faffing said:


> A dealer I've been chatting to has offered me a used ECM Elektronika for 800 or so, comes with 12 month warranty but obvs is used.
> 
> Any thoughts as to the benefit of the Mara X in comparison?


The MaraX has a a PID controller which measures temp and tune the heating of the boiler accordingly to optimise temperature for brewing.

Have you seen the review videos? Did you read anything about the MaraX or any HX machine before posting? Please do your homework and you'll find the answer to your own question.


----------



## Joe shorrock

Yas90 said:


> Did the same
> 
> Sold my BE
> 
> Very suprised by the interest when I did
> 
> Got £250 for it and it was 2 years old. Have a feeling I could have got a little more


 Where did you sell it?


----------



## Faffing

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The MaraX has a a PID controller which measures temp and tune the heating of the boiler accordingly to optimise temperature for brewing.
> 
> Have you seen the review videos? Did you read anything about the MaraX or any HX machine before posting? Please do your homework and you'll find the answer to your own question.


 Thanks for your reply.

Have worked in coffee shops on and off for years so can make a nice cup, but hadn't prior bought a machine for home.

Absolutely then re research, was where I found this forum. Is the ECM Elektronika not also a HX machine? Aware of the new innovation the MaraX is bringing, but was just wondering of the alternate benefits of the ECM, found info about that more limited, and obvs comparisons not yet widely avail, hence wondered if any of you find knowledgable folks would have good notions?

Thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Faffing said:


> Thanks for your reply. Have worked in coffee shops on and off for years so can make a nice cup, but hadn't prior bought a machine for home.
> 
> Absolutely then re research, was where I found this forum. Is the ECM Elektronika not also a HX machine? Aware of the new innovation the MaraX is bringing, but was just wondering of the alternate benefits of the ECM, found info about that more limited, and obvs comparisons not yet widely avail, hence wondered if any of you find knowledgable folks would have good notions?
> 
> Thanks


Ha, I see.

So you know it all. And, as far as I know... that's it. The ECM is an HX machine like the others, maybe better designed. The ultimate decision is whether you'd benefit from the features of the MaraX. If you don't, then you might as well chose something else that suits you. I never seen the Elektronika so can't comment.

Edit/Ps: what are the "alternate benefits" of the ECM machine you mention?


----------



## Faffing

Thanks much 

Will hopefully find something nice soon.

Looking forward to having some nice new beverages again in my life!


----------



## Aamz23

Jony said:


> Get the machine and then ponder on the Grinder


 And buy grounded coffee till august when the niche zero would be delivered?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Aamz23 said:


> And buy grounded coffee till august when the niche zero would be delivered?


Have you tried making espresso with pre-ground coffee?


----------



## Craigzad

Aamz23 said:


> And buy grounded coffee till august when the niche zero would be delivered?


 Would need a pressurized basket for that


----------



## Jony

Faffing said:


> Thanks much
> 
> Will hopefully find something nice soon.
> 
> Looking forward to having some nice new beverages again in my life!


 Be quick life is to short for shit coffee 🤣


----------



## Yas90

Joe shorrock said:


> Where did you sell it?


 Gumtree

Collection only

Had to make clear it would be a simple pick up service and I couldnt show them it working in person given the restrictions


----------



## Aamz23

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Have you tried making espresso with pre-ground coffee?





Craigzad said:


> Would need a pressurized basket for that


 Yeah so leaves me short hahha. Bloody grinder business


----------



## Jony

Could buy a handgrinder.


----------



## Crackazz

robti said:


> Well ordered at 8.50 this morning and just got 2 emails one saying shipped and second from FedEx with tracking for delivery tomorrow 🤩


 Was right behind you at 9.03... mine is delivered tomorrow. Hopefully without the issue some people In the US have been experiencing 🤞


----------



## Zoltan

Crackazz said:


> Was right behind you at 9.03... mine is delivered tomorrow. Hopefully without the issue some people In the US have been experiencing 🤞


 What issues are they experiencing?


----------



## jaffro

Crackazz said:


> Was right behind you at 9.03... mine is delivered tomorrow. Hopefully without the issue some people In the US have been experiencing 🤞


 Nice! I got my confirmation through in the end, so mine will be here tomorrow too 😊


----------



## Jony

Great can't wait to see all the shiny new machines.


----------



## Pleevus

I'll be getting my machine tomorrow too, excited doesn't quite cut it!

In the same boat waiting for a niche to arrive in June.

Any recommendations of accessories to go with the new toy?


----------



## Craigzad

jaffro said:


> Nice! I got my confirmation through in the end, so mine will be here tomorrow too 😊





Pleevus said:


> I'll be getting my machine tomorrow too, excited doesn't quite cut it!
> 
> In the same boat waiting for a niche to arrive in June.
> 
> Any recommendations of accessories to go with the new toy?


 No such luck here looks like i have a longer wait 😂😂


----------



## Jony

Plenty.


----------



## robti

Was told that they were only getting 36 machines in yesterday, I would have expected them to have sold out quicker, but hey who cares mine is coming today


----------



## aganov

Zoltan said:


> What issues are they experiencing?


 Some of the machines in the US arrived with broken pump connectors and baskets with same size.


----------



## Crackazz

Zoltan said:


> What issues are they experiencing?


 Something about a broken water reservoir manifold during shipping .. not related to the packaging either so something to keep an eye out for. Look on the MaraX thread on HB to see what I mean. You soon see as it will leak water all over the counter


----------



## Adam.f

I hope everyone enjoys there new machine when it arrives.

I was looking at the MaraX for my next machine and really temped by it, but at the moment holding off now until BB open the showroom so I can go and see machines in person I am lucky that I live just 45 mins from BB (is it lucky tho, could cost me a fortune being so close!!!) and can go and take a good look before purchasing the right machine for myself. I am thinking what do I want to buy as I want it to last a long time for the money that is put down in the first place, is the MaraX one of them. I also feel that after this lockdown lifts how many coffee machines will be up for sale as people cannot get there coffee fix from the coffee shops at this moment in time and people have been rushing out and buying coffee and coffee machines and after will lie and gather dust when people don't have time and go back to the hectic lives????


----------



## jaffro

...

I'll make a separate thread, just thought I'd give a teaser 😉


----------



## Craigzad

jaffro said:


> ...
> 
> I'll make a separate thread, just thought I'd give a teaser 😉
> 
> View attachment 39454


 oh you tease 😍


----------



## Jony

God dam you 🤣😎


----------



## robti

I didn't even get time for the camera, built, filled, flushed and shot poured, although I usually drink flat white I didn't want to dirty the steam wand lol, what surprised me as I jumped in to buy one was my vst baskets from my gaggia classic fit


----------



## Craigzad

Emails from bella and fedex being dispatched, gonna be like a little kid on christmas day tomorrow 😋


----------



## robti

Beware throwing the outer box and polystyrene bits in the bin and found a receipt and a bag of beans At the bottom, nice surprise


----------



## Aamz23

Pleevus said:


> I'll be getting my machine tomorrow too, excited doesn't quite cut it!
> 
> In the same boat waiting for a niche to arrive in June.
> 
> Any recommendations of accessories to go with the new toy?


 What you using to grind in the meantime?


----------



## Badgerman

robti said:


> Beware throwing the outer box and polystyrene bits in the bin and found a receipt and a bag of beans At the bottom, nice surprise


And the glasses in the water tank.

Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## Pleevus

Aamz23 said:


> What you using to grind in the meantime?


 No grinder until the Niche arrives in June.

Bought some ground Milk Buster and Gas Light from BB, big step up from our usual offering, buy can't wait for the grinder to arrive.


----------



## Aamz23

Pleevus said:


> No grinder until the Niche arrives in June.
> 
> Bought some ground Milk Buster and Gas Light from BB, big step up from our usual offering, buy can't wait for the grinder to arrive.


 Niche are saying August for me. I don't know what id do in mean time seems pointless And expensive buying a grinder till the niche arrives. Im too impatient.


----------



## robti

Badgerman said:


> And the glasses in the water tank.
> 
> Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


 no glasses in mine 😞


----------



## grumble

Aamz23 said:


> Niche are saying August for me. I don't know what id do in mean time seems pointless And expensive buying a grinder till the niche arrives. Im too impatient.


 Decent hand grinder second hand then sell it again if you don't want it when the Niche arrives? No way I could wait that long.


----------



## Zoltan

Badgerman said:


> And the glasses in the water tank.


 I didn't receive glasses. Neither the plastic coffee spoon 🤔

But I don't mind as I have metal spoon and received the MaraX with a nice bag of coffee beans  Didn't expect that


----------



## Yas90

All ready and set 

just need a leveller and milk jug


----------



## damo

Looking nice !


----------



## Adam.f

Looking good! Enjoy


----------



## Boxerman33

Had mine 2 months now and enjoying it, but seeing that picture really makes me want a Niche 😐


----------



## MastaVonBlasta

Hello everyone,

Got my Mara X yesterday and I have a lot to learn  So many habits from using a modified Delonghi Dedica EC680 

I was wondering if anyone was able locate a detailed manual for Mara X anywhere?

With explanation on priority modes? How to switch off power saving mode?

Cheers


----------



## Jony

I would save up for a Niche.


----------



## jaffro

Boxerman33 said:


> Had mine 2 months now and enjoying it, but seeing that picture really makes me want a Niche 😐


 It's a great combo 😊


----------



## MastaVonBlasta

Hello,

Received Mara X yesterday and I'm getting stuck in with trying to learn how to use it best.

I was wondering if anyone was able to find a full guide for Mara X? (including modes, how to switch off power saving mode, etc)

Cheers


----------



## Bicky

MastaVonBlasta said:


> Hello,
> 
> Received Mara X yesterday and I'm getting stuck in with trying to learn how to use it best.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone was able to find a full guide for Mara X? (including modes, how to switch off power saving mode, etc)
> 
> Cheers


 Does it not come with a manual that explains this stuff? Dave's review explains the modes in more detail and how to switch power saving off/on.

After saying I wasn't going to splash the cash due to the uncertainty of COVID/lockdown etc., I've caved and pulled the trigger  😄


----------



## efrain-PR

Here Dave explains the different modes and how to turn off standby mode:

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/lelit-marax-review-in-progress/


----------



## Zoltan

MastaVonBlasta said:


> Hello,
> 
> Received Mara X yesterday and I'm getting stuck in with trying to learn how to use it best.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone was able to find a full guide for Mara X? (including modes, how to switch off power saving mode, etc)
> 
> Cheers


 User manual 2nd page says You have to download the full manual.

They waste less paper


----------



## Badgerman

Don't forget your matching bar towels. Thanks again@mildredm.










Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## MastaVonBlasta

Zoltan said:


> User manual 2nd page says You have to download the full manual.
> 
> They waste less paper
> 
> View attachment 39505


 And that's what I haven't been able to find...

But the link to Dave C's review helped - at the very end there's info on how to turn off the power saving standby mode


----------



## DavecUK

MastaVonBlasta said:


> And that's what I haven't been able to find...
> 
> But the link to Dave C's review helped - at the very end there's info on how to turn off the power saving standby mode


 I put it at the end to make sure you read the whole review.


----------



## Zoltan

MastaVonBlasta said:


> And that's what I haven't been able to find...
> 
> But the link to Dave C's review helped - at the very end there's info on how to turn off the power saving standby mode


 Ok, I didn't check yet if it's really there on the website...

Just curiousity, what setting do you use with Sage Smart Grinder Pro? I got same and using around 12-14.


----------



## Craigzad

Marax Arrived today oh she certainly looks beautiful 😍

Along with Mignon facile definitely seems a steeper learning curve compared to the 2015 classic & sage dose control i had.


----------



## Craigzad

Badgerman said:


> Don't forget your matching bar towels. Thanks again@mildredm.
> 
> 
> 
> Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


 Oh yes need these had one a @MildredM gaggia classic towl


----------



## brisk

Stanic said:


> That's definitely enough. Maybe check if you get any residue in the cup after that water evaporates? Share pic for diagnosis..


 OK so I flushed more and it is getting a bit better but still has a brown-ish tint.

Here is a picture of the water.

 There was nothing when it evaporated.


----------



## Stanic

brisk said:


> OK so I flushed more and it is getting a bit better but still has a brown-ish tint.
> 
> Here is a picture of the water.
> 
> There was nothing when it evaporated.


 looks very fine to me, maybe you just need to put more water through..and check after some time again..and don't use the water spout much 😛


----------



## brisk

Stanic said:


> looks very fint to me, maybe you just need to put more water through..and check after some time again..and don't use the water spout much 😛


 Got it. Appreciate your reply!

I was just comparing it to the group head water which is very clear.


----------



## MastaVonBlasta

Zoltan said:


> Ok, I didn't check yet if it's really there on the website...
> 
> Just curiousity, what setting do you use with Sage Smart Grinder Pro? I got same and using around 12-14.


 Wow really? I've got this one: https://smile.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00LSQHB1Q/ref=cm_sw_r_apa_i_tRcVEb6H5BM70

For espresso, depending on beans I've been using 1-6 grind setting for 13-15s to get approx 17g dose in my previous machine (Delonghi ec680 modified)

For MaraX so far I had to go to size 2 for just over 15s to get 18-19g and then get 36-40g of coffee after approx 30s

With previous machine and now MaraX my Sage grinder would given much to course grind at setting 12-14

Really interesting that you've had to use a very different setting

When I change beans over quite soon I'll be curious if my Sage grinder will be able to fine enough for a good brew ratio


----------



## Adam.f

Out of stock now in BB


----------



## Badgerman

Adam.f said:


> Out of stock now in BB


That was quick!

Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## Zoltan

MastaVonBlasta said:


> Wow really? I've got this one: https://smile.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00LSQHB1Q/ref=cm_sw_r_apa_i_tRcVEb6H5BM70
> 
> For espresso, depending on beans I've been using 1-6 grind setting for 13-15s to get approx 17g dose in my previous machine (Delonghi ec680 modified)
> 
> For MaraX so far I had to go to size 2 for just over 15s to get 18-19g and then get 36-40g of coffee after approx 30s
> 
> With previous machine and now MaraX my Sage grinder would given much to course grind at setting 12-14
> 
> Really interesting that you've had to use a very different setting
> 
> When I change beans over quite soon I'll be curious if my Sage grinder will be able to fine enough for a good brew ratio


 Wow. When did you buy your grinder? I got mine in January, this year. I've heard that people weren't able to grind fine enough with SGP but mine is amazing (ok, don't know its consistency).

At setting 10 I've choked the MaraX with an old bean and setting 8 with brand new beans. Now setting 14 gives me 38g in 35-36sec (18g in).

I guess they updated this grinder not long time ago.


----------



## Jony

Obviously these go quick.


----------



## Craigzad

manual says

Save the box and all the packing material!

not a cat in hells chance them boxes where getting in my loft as they came 😂🤣


----------



## efrain-PR

If you register your Mara X on the Lelit "care.lelit.com" you find a PDF version of the same manual that comes with the machine and also the technical drawings with all the parts. No additional user manuals.


----------



## MastaVonBlasta

Zoltan said:


> Wow. When did you buy your grinder? I got mine in January, this year. I've heard that people weren't able to grind fine enough with SGP but mine is amazing (ok, don't know its consistency).
> 
> At setting 10 I've choked the MaraX with an old bean and setting 8 with brand new beans. Now setting 14 gives me 38g in 35-36sec (18g in).
> 
> I guess they updated this grinder not long time ago.


 I bought mine back in January 2018, so over two years ago...

Having such a difference between settings is surprising. Surely the clearance between burrs can be manufactured to a good tolerance...

Unless you're tamping as hard as a Superman and you get the bed so compressed with grind setting 8...

In any case this morning I got a brew ratio of 2 for setting 2 in 22s, so I don't have much room to manoeuvre - I'd rather have 7 more grind size stops like you 

I've also registered at Care.Lelit.com and was disappointed to see that the manuals there are the same as what comes in the box. There are some great exploded views of the machine.

The other thing I'm struggling with for now is frothing the milk. The steam wand tip shape with holes and its size, and the angle it sits at are so different from what I had with modified DeLonghi Dedica. I've swapped the stock wand for Rancilio Silvia one and over time I learned how to get the milk nicely textured. Now I'm back to square one 

One great thing is the CoolTouch wands - I've scolded my fingers before so many times...

EDIT: Lelit responded on their Care page to my question about extended Mara X guide - they are still working on it and when it's finished it will be available for download from the product page on Lelit Care


----------



## Yas90

Craigzad said:


> manual says
> 
> Save the box and all the packing material!
> 
> not a cat in hells chance them boxes where getting in my loft as they came 😂🤣


 Yh

I saw that after I had started shredding them as much as possible to fit in my recycle bin 😕


----------



## Bicky

Mine arrived - a box within a box within a box, can't fault them on packaging 😂

The main problem I'm going to have is filling the water tank. The only place I can sit it is under a cabinet so have to move it out to do so, and it's a brute. I might have to fashion some kind of tube/funnel filling system!


----------



## Jony

Bicky said:


> Mine arrived - a box within a box within a box, can't fault them on packaging 😂
> 
> The main problem I'm going to have is filling the water tank. The only place I can sit it is under a cabinet so have to move it out to do so, and it's a brute. I might have to fashion some kind of tube/funnel filling system!


 No pre thought just bang I want one haha


----------



## MastaVonBlasta

Bicky said:


> Mine arrived - a box within a box within a box, can't fault them on packaging 😂
> 
> The main problem I'm going to have is filling the water tank. The only place I can sit it is under a cabinet so have to move it out to do so, and it's a brute. I might have to fashion some kind of tube/funnel filling system!


 I had the same worry... Kitchen work top to underside of cabinet above is 50cm. MaraX height is 35cm + 29cm tall tank - does not fit...

Had to place the new machine in the very corner of the kitchen. The tank *just* manages to slot in between the boiler and the wall... Lucky!


----------



## tj893

Bicky said:


> Mine arrived - a box within a box within a box, can't fault them on packaging 😂
> 
> The main problem I'm going to have is filling the water tank. The only place I can sit it is under a cabinet so have to move it out to do so, and it's a brute. I might have to fashion some kind of tube/funnel filling system!





MastaVonBlasta said:


> I had the same worry... Kitchen work top to underside of cabinet above is 50cm. MaraX height is 35cm + 29cm tall tank - does not fit...
> 
> Had to place the new machine in the very corner of the kitchen. The tank *just* manages to slot in between the boiler and the wall... Lucky!


 I've been thinking about this recently as well - some work arounds that I've seen are putting felt furniture pads under the feet which allow the machine to be slid and swivelled around more easily. Is it possible to just leave the tank in situ most of the time and refill with a bottle or funnel under the cabinets? Some other ideas in this thread: https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/espresso-machine-under-cabinets-how-to-fill-water-reservoir-t45027.html


----------



## Bicky

Jony said:


> No pre thought just bang I want one haha


 Well I knew I'd have to move it, just never fully considered what 18kg of pure metal feels like 😂



tj893 said:


> I've been thinking about this recently as well - some work arounds that I've seen are putting felt furniture pads under the feet which allow the machine to be slid and swivelled around more easily. Is it possible to just leave the tank in situ most of the time and refill with a bottle or funnel under the cabinets? Some other ideas in this thread: https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/espresso-machine-under-cabinets-how-to-fill-water-reservoir-t45027.html


 Felt pads could be an idea. The feet are small, rubber and very sticky, definitely can't be slide out easily as is. Tank could be filled in situ with a funnel or something, it might just be tricky to see the water level I guess.


----------



## Craigzad

Yas90 said:


> Yh
> 
> I saw that after I had started shredding them as much as possible to fit in my recycle bin 😕


 Always like to try and keep boxes if possible Marax boxes had to flaten even then was a tightfit 🤬



Bicky said:


> Mine arrived - a box within a box within a box, can't fault them on packaging 😂
> 
> The main problem I'm going to have is filling the water tank. The only place I can sit it is under a cabinet so have to move it out to do so, and it's a brute. I might have to fashion some kind of tube/funnel filling system!


 oh yes very well packaged indeed 👍

Mines the same sure i read on here somewhere or could it even have been one of @DavecUK videos at some point about feltpads on feet to make things easier to slide out. but probabley just do what i did with my classic and use smaller bottle or jug to fill up or get yourself one of them beer bong funnels

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51awl4caBwL._AC_SL1000_.jpg


----------



## Jony

Mine weighs double that, and grinder isn't far off😂🤣

It's quite big think I might whack it in for sale area. I am sort of stuck on filter right now.


----------



## efrain-PR

Bicky said:


> Mine arrived - a box within a box within a box, can't fault them on packaging 😂
> 
> The main problem I'm going to have is filling the water tank. The only place I can sit it is under a cabinet so have to move it out to do so, and it's a brute. I might have to fashion some kind of tube/funnel filling system!


 I have the same problem, bought a funnel with a long arm (about 8 inches) on amazon, also available from auto part stores, where I can fill the tank without moving the machine just taking the water tank cover off, and avoiding getting water into outside of the tank.

I also added felt pad under the feet, so i can slide it when I need to clean the tank or replace the filter. If you slide without the feltpads the rubber part of the feet comes off, it happens to me I had to use gorrilla glue to fix it.


----------



## robti

Okay I admit defeat, even after reading dave's write up, so I tried a couple of times with no luck, can anyone give me a walk through on the switching standby off ?

Thanks


----------



## potter985

robti said:


> Okay I admit defeat, even after reading dave's write up, so I tried a couple of times with no luck, can anyone give me a walk through on the switching standby off ?
> Thanks


Try this!


----------



## DavecUK

I've changed the review to try and make it clearer. 🙄

P.S. Little felt pads stick to the rubber feet make life much easier. It's mentioned in one of the videos and in many of my reviews for various machines.


----------



## Boxerman33

Filling mine via an old 2ltr coke bottle, saves moving the machine around from under the cupboards.

As regards setting on the Sage SGP, i've found it's very dependant on the beans and even on batch to batch of different roasts

Lavazza Rosso (sorry i know they're supermarket beans but i get them, free!) Setting 6-7

Milk Buster from BB 11

Various Ethiopian ones from Foundry Roasters anything from 5-9

takes a while to dial them in too, hence desperately wanting a Niche


----------



## MastaVonBlasta

Zoltan said:


> Wow. When did you buy your grinder? I got mine in January, this year. I've heard that people weren't able to grind fine enough with SGP but mine is amazing (ok, don't know its consistency).
> 
> At setting 10 I've choked the MaraX with an old bean and setting 8 with brand new beans. Now setting 14 gives me 38g in 35-36sec (18g in).
> 
> I guess they updated this grinder not long time ago.


 I think the difference can be explained by the wear of the burrs over 2 years of use.

Remembered that the outer burr can be removed in Sage SGP for cleaning and the burr position can be adjusted to account for wear over time.

Took mine out and it was in position 6 (1 fine, 10 course) and moved it to position 4.

Had to change beans so can't compare like-for-like, but I'm now at grind setting 6 and brew ratio and shot time were good.

I'm really glad I was able to move away from having to grind at setting 1!

Managed to get some nice tasting espressos today and also improving with frothing 👌


----------



## Rira

I am totally new to at home espresso. So far I am delighted with my new Mara X.

Service from bella barista was really quick, delivered internationally in 2 days. It was very securely and innovatively packaged. I also found some complementary beans in the box.

I am using el cheapo supermarket beans until I get the hang of things. I wasn't sure what to expect from prosumer level coffee. It already tastes very decent.

A couple of questions for fellow MaraX owners. When I am extracting I seem to have a small spraying leak from the back of my portafilter. Any idea's what that might be?

Also I have been mostly getting 8 bar pressure when the pump is maxed out during extraction. Is that the same for everyone, or do you think my grind is off?


----------



## DavecUK

Rira said:


> 1. A couple of questions for fellow MaraX owners. When I am extracting I seem to have a small spraying leak from the back of my portafilter. Any idea's what that might be?
> 
> 2. Also I have been mostly getting 8 bar pressure when the pump is maxed out during extraction. Is that the same for everyone, or do you think my grind is off?


 1. What portafilter are you using, where is the leak coming from exactly?

2. What do you get when you pull a shot against a blind filter (black filter, or backflush disk).


----------



## Zoltan

Hi guys.

Which bottomless portafilter would you recommend to the MaraX?

I'm literally new to the E61 heads and no idea how should I choose one..

Thanks


----------



## Zoltan

MastaVonBlasta said:


> I think the difference can be explained by the wear of the burrs over 2 years of use.
> 
> Remembered that the outer burr can be removed in Sage SGP for cleaning and the burr position can be adjusted to account for wear over time.
> 
> Took mine out and it was in position 6 (1 fine, 10 course) and moved it to position 4.
> 
> Had to change beans so can't compare like-for-like, but I'm now at grind setting 6 and brew ratio and shot time were good.
> 
> I'm really glad I was able to move away from having to grind at setting 1!
> 
> Managed to get some nice tasting espressos today and also improving with frothing 👌


 Yep, 2 years could definitely explain the difference. Mine is also in position 6. But good to know that I can adjust later if I have to and it really works, before receiving a new grinder 

I take regularly the burr out for cleaning, also can be a reason it grinds well.


----------



## Badgerman

Zoltan said:


> Hi guys.
> Which bottomless portafilter would you recommend to the MaraX?
> I'm literally new to the E61 heads and no idea how should I choose one..
> Thanks


Rocket from BB matches well and is well made. All e61 will fit though.

Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## Zoltan

Badgerman said:


> Rocket from BB matches well and is well made. All e61 will fit though.
> 
> Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


 Thanks.

Do you use the Rocket one?


----------



## Badgerman

Zoltan said:


> Thanks.
> Do you use the Rocket one?


Yes. Love it. So much easier to clean and looks same as original PF


























Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## Zoltan

Badgerman said:


> Yes. Love it. So much easier to clean and looks same as original PF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


 Amazing, thank you very much. I'll go for it


----------



## 17845

Zoltan said:


> Amazing, thank you very much. I'll go for it


 I have one for sale if you want @Zoltan


----------



## 2953

I've kept the eco mode switched on. Is it just having to wait a little for the machine to wake up and stabilise again, even though it's not the full time it is from powering up, that some are disabling it? Or is it because of something else?


----------



## jaffro

hubcap said:


> I have one for sale if you want @Zoltan


 @hubcap if Zoltan isn't interested then I am! Let me know 😊


----------



## DavecUK

petebetros said:


> I've kept the eco mode switched on. Is it just having to wait a little for the machine to wake up and stabilise again, even though it's not the full time it is from powering up, that some are disabling it? Or is it because of something else?


 Disable it because it's an inconvenience. Unless your coffee making follows a very specific pattern, it's not worth it. Do you actually want to wait 15-30 minutes to make a coffee each time you decide you want one. If you make like 2 coffee per day, switch the machine on when you want a coffee, wait 30m, make coffee and switch it off again....then repeat.


----------



## 2953

Thanks Dave, I'll do that.


----------



## Aamz23

So excuse my ignorance on this. If i want to make a coffee in the morning i have to wait 30 odd mins for it to warm up before I can make it? So if someone comes round for a coffee later on i have to switch it back on and wait again?

Im sorry for the silly questions i have a BE and it warms up in 30secs


----------



## Stanic

Aamz23 said:


> So excuse my ignorance on this. If i want to make a coffee in the morning i have to wait 30 odd mins for it to warm up before I can make it? So if someone comes round for a coffee later on i have to switch it back on and wait again?
> 
> Im sorry for the silly questions i have a BE and it warms up in 30secs


 In general yes especially for e61 group machine, and basically every machine benefits from longish heat-up, the reason BE is fast is because it uses thermocoil instead of classic boiler


----------



## Zoltan

Aamz23 said:


> So excuse my ignorance on this. If i want to make a coffee in the morning i have to wait 30 odd mins for it to warm up before I can make it? So if someone comes round for a coffee later on i have to switch it back on and wait again?
> 
> Im sorry for the silly questions i have a BE and it warms up in 30secs


 If BE means Barista Express then your machine doesn't warm up in 30sec. Its thermocoil is ready and water will reach the right temperature in less than a minute but your machine..

I had a DTP with same thermocoil system and it was ready to pull a shot in 30sec.

Next time switch it on at least 20 mins earlier, attach the portafilter with the basket into the group head and pull your first shot when they are all warm. You will like it 😁


----------



## DavecUK

Aamz23 said:


> So excuse my ignorance on this. If i want to make a coffee in the morning i have to wait 30 odd mins for it to warm up before I can make it? So if someone comes round for a coffee later on i have to switch it back on and wait again?
> 
> Im sorry for the silly questions i have a BE and it warms up in 30secs


 Most people leave the machines on when at home, it doesn't use much power, and they are always available. Mine are on 15 hours+ per day. Sure you might use pennies more electricity per day but in return you get great performance and brew temp stability. You might be quite surprised when/if you get MaraxX as to the difference it makes compared to your current equipment.


----------



## 17845

Not Mara X but the PL62 deluxe variant :-

I'm with Dave on this subject

I switch mine on in the morning and it stays on till evening

Cannot see the point in not doing that.


----------



## Yas90

DavecUK said:


> Most people leave the machines on when at home, it doesn't use much power, and they are always available. Mine are on 15 hours+ per day. Sure you might use pennies more electricity per day but in return you get great performance and brew temp stability. You might be quite surprised when/if you get MaraxX as to the difference it makes compared to your current equipment.


 Hey Dave

Firstly thank you for all your excellent advice this far

So do you recommend as an ideal set up.

Standby mode off

Leave the machine "on" I.e. on button pushed in at all times

Smart switch to power the machine 30mins prior to first use

And then smart switch to stop powering I the evening.

Thanks


----------



## Aamz23

Zoltan said:


> If BE means Barista Express then your machine doesn't warm up in 30sec. Its thermocoil is ready and water will reach the right temperature in less than a minute but your machine..
> 
> I had a DTP with same thermocoil system and it was ready to pull a shot in 30sec.
> 
> Next time switch it on at least 20 mins earlier, attach the portafilter with the basket into the group head and pull your first shot when they are all warm. You will like it 😁


 Tbh I do that now. As im fasting i know what time ill be able to have a coffee so i just switch it on 20mins before it then goes into its eco mode so i just press the one shot button and it comes back on.

my worry is with the morning coffee for lelit mara x and having to remember to switch it on first thing before i make a coffee, i guess i can use a smart plug or just remember lol.

its the little things that I overthink


----------



## Zoltan

Aamz23 said:


> My worry is with the morning coffee for lelit mara x and having to remember to switch it on first thing before i make a coffee, i guess i can use a smart plug or just remember lol.
> 
> its the little things that I overthink


 Smart plug is so useful. When I switch the alarm off on my phone also I switch on my smart plug with MaraX. Then I have time to wake up properly, stretching, realise where am I, etc. Morning routine 🙂

After finishing at work also can switch the plug via the application and get home for a ready to pull a shot machine.


----------



## Aamz23

DavecUK said:


> Most people leave the machines on when at home, it doesn't use much power, and they are always available. Mine are on 15 hours+ per day. Sure you might use pennies more electricity per day but in return you get great performance and brew temp stability. You might be quite surprised when/if you get MaraxX as to the difference it makes compared to your current equipment.


 Thanks Dave. Ive ordered the Niche which should be here in August sometime. I do often contemplate how much difference a mara over a BE would make, is it minuscule or major. Guess it depends on each individuals taste palette. However generally speaking im hoping it does make a noticeable difference to the average consumer.


----------



## Zoltan

Aamz23 said:


> Thanks Dave. Ive ordered the Niche which should be here in August sometime. I do often contemplate how much difference a mara over a BE would make, is it minuscule or major. Guess it depends on each individuals taste palette. However generally speaking im hoping it does make a noticeable difference to the average consumer.


 How come you have to wait so long?! Isn't there any other platform to buy Niche? I'm planning to get one but August is too far. After advices (I got here) I'd prefer Niche Zero (option 2 was Mignon Specialita) but I would wait 3 month for it and cope with my Sage grinder.. especially with MaraX.

Anyone, any idea? 🤔


----------



## DavecUK

Aamz23 said:


> Thanks Dave. Ive ordered the Niche which should be here in August sometime. I do often contemplate how much difference a mara over a BE would make, is it minuscule or major. Guess it depends on each individuals taste palette. However generally speaking im hoping it does make a noticeable difference to the average consumer.


 I think it's going to be fairly noticeable but YMMV.


----------



## DavecUK

Yas90 said:


> Hey Dave
> 
> Firstly thank you for all your excellent advice this far
> 
> So do you recommend as an ideal set up.
> 
> Standby mode off
> 
> Leave the machine "on" I.e. on button pushed in at all times
> 
> Smart switch to power the machine 30mins prior to first use
> 
> And then smart switch to stop powering I the evening.
> 
> Thanks


 That's exactly how I run it. On at 8:30, off at 11:00


----------



## Aamz23

Zoltan said:


> How come you have to wait so long?! Isn't there any other platform to buy Niche? I'm planning to get one but August is too far. After advices (I got here) I'd prefer Niche Zero (option 2 was Mignon Specialita) but I would wait 3 month for it and cope with my Sage grinder.. especially with MaraX.
> 
> Anyone, any idea? 🤔


 Can only buy from indiegogo and its stating an August delivery date. Im in same situation. Decided against the specialita as it cant switch to pour over as easy as the niche. So might as well wait and get it then. Maybe use a hand grinder In the meantime. I need to sell my sage when the niche comes and order a mara x. This machine looks the part and seems like it is.

any early teething problems?


----------



## Yas90

Perfect

Right I'll get that set up


----------



## Adam.f

Zoltan said:


> How come you have to wait so long?! Isn't there any other platform to buy Niche? I'm planning to get one but August is too far. After advices (I got here) I'd prefer Niche Zero (option 2 was Mignon Specialita) but I would wait 3 month for it and cope with my Sage grinder.. especially with MaraX.
> 
> Anyone, any idea? 🤔


 Yep August is the next delivery date for the Niche in the U.K. unless you can find second hand, otherwise you will have a wait until August, they go pretty quick on the Ingdiegogo website. July's UK delivery went in about a week. I made an order last month and have a delivery of June, they are true to time scale And normally at the start of the month and not before.


----------



## Zoltan

Adam.f said:


> Yep August is the next delivery date for the Niche in the U.K. unless you can find second hand, otherwise you will have a wait until August, they go pretty quick on the Ingdiegogo website. July's UK delivery went in about a week. I made an order last month and have a delivery of June, they are true to time scale And normally at the start of the month and not before.


 And how is it working? Will they charge you right now when making an order or only when shipping it? Never used it before and no idea.. all I know is that I need a new grinder


----------



## Adam.f

Zoltan said:


> And how is it working? Will they charge you right now when making an order or only when shipping it? Never used it before and no idea.. all I know is that I need a new grinder


 Yes they charge you straight away when ordering, you can check the status of your order any time. From the previous orders they seem very good, once ready they email you with a dispatch and tracking number email. Martin the owner of Niche is very active and answers any questions people have.


----------



## Rira

DavecUK said:


> 1. What portafilter are you using, where is the leak coming from exactly?
> 
> 2. What do you get when you pull a shot against a blind filter (black filter, or backflush disk).


 Sorry to take so long to get back to you.

I think my leak was the product of bad distribution/tamp and a bottomless portafilter. I swapped out for a smaller double basket, and it hasn't happened since.

I haven't had a chance to backflush since. I'll do it on my next day off. What pump pressure am I looking for?

I am finding bits of dark grit from my hot water tap. Is that likely manufacturing residue?

Many thanks for your help!


----------



## DavecUK

Rira said:


> Sorry to take so long to get back to you.
> 
> I think my leak was the product of bad distribution/tamp and a bottomless portafilter. I swapped out for a smaller double basket, and it hasn't happened since.
> 
> I haven't had a chance to backflush since. I'll do it on my next day off. What pump pressure am I looking for?
> 
> I am finding bits of dark grit from my hot water tap. Is that likely manufacturing residue?
> 
> Many thanks for your help!


 Backflushing against a blind filter was to see if you really had a leak, clearly you don't.

Dark pieces could be anything, I always flush my machines well before use.


----------



## robti

okay been searching online and i cant find anything related to maintenance of this machine, i clean the shower screen every day but cant see anything about descaling or backflushing, so before i get shot down in flames can i get a nudge in the right direction please ?

Thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

robti said:


> okay been searching online and i cant find anything related to maintenance of this machine, i clean the shower screen every day but cant see anything about descaling or backflushing, so before i get shot down in flames can i get a nudge in the right direction please ?
> 
> Thanks


It's no different to any machine.

- avoid descaling by using boiler friendly water. Tesco's Ashbeck, Waitrose Lockhills, Volvic, a mix of them, or make your own water using RO or distilled. Osmio Zero Water is a great choice.

- read the sticker on this forum called "cleanliness next to goodness" or something like that.


----------



## robti

thanks had a classic before this and it was just a matter of blind filter and then pump on / off, is this the same ?

and off for a read now


----------



## Badgerman

robti said:


> thanks had a classic before this and it was just a matter of blind filter and then pump on / off, is this the same ?
> 
> and off for a read now







I do this with mine. Chemical backflush and lube monthly.

+1 for only feeding it appropriate water.

Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## Stanic

after a long and agonising wait, there she came

first, the obligatory sticker pic for Dave (naturally, the power saving mode was on)

for fun, I've added the Profitec flow valve 😛 only had time to try it against blind disc but works without issues

and IMS shower screen plus Cafelt gasket


----------



## efrain-PR

DavecUK said:


> WTF, hold on, what is the pressure with a blind filter ?
> 
> Sometimes people get the spanner in there a bit quick.


 Dave, I measured my Mara X water flow and its 5.3 ml/s and the machine pressure is 10 Bars with the blind basket in the portafilter, wanted to do this before I install the Lelit Bianca Flow Control Kit So I can check the differences if any after the flow control kit is installed. The Bianca flow is 6.5 ml/s. If I increase the OPV pressure to 11 Bars will the water flow increase? I wouldn't do it until I measure the water flow with the control kit if it decreases from 5.3 ml/s .


----------



## DavecUK

efrain-PR said:


> Dave, I measured my Mara X water flow and its 5.3 ml/s and the machine pressure is 10 Bars with the blind basket in the portafilter, wanted to do this before I install the Lelit Bianca Flow Control Kit So I can check the differences if any after the flow control kit is installed. The Bianca flow is 6.5 ml/s. If I increase the OPV pressure to 11 Bars will the water flow increase? I wouldn't do it until I measure the water flow with the control kit if it decreases from 5.3 ml/s .


 Yes it would increase


----------



## efrain-PR

Dave, thanks for the prompt reply. Should I increase it to match the Bianca or is 5.3 ml/s still good for Flow profiling? To increase it on the OPV should I remove the plastic tube from the valve or at the opposite side?


----------



## Rob1

I get 5ml/s with the paddle completely open on the Minima. I never go fully open while making a shot.


----------



## efrain-PR

Rob1 said:


> I get 5ml/s with the paddle completely open on the Minima. I never go fully open while making a shot.


 Thanks for letting me know, Ill see what my flow is when I install the Bianca kit this week. If its stay above 5 ml/s probably won't need touch the OPV.


----------



## Badgerman

Stanic said:


> after a long and agonising wait, there she came
> first, the obligatory sticker pic for Dave (naturally, the power saving mode was on)
> 
> for fun, I've added the Profitec flow valve  only had time to try it against blind disc but works without issues
> and IMS shower screen plus Cafelt gasket
> 
> <img alt="K52S9316.thumb.jpg.6a33a27cbcae3a3afa12f8f806cab8fd.jpg" data-fileid="39808" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2020_05/K52S9316.thumb.jpg.6a33a27cbcae3a3afa12f8f806cab8fd.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="K52S9323.thumb.jpg.e435761145efe4fdc66c636feeaac680.jpg" data-fileid="39809" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2020_05/K52S9323.thumb.jpg.e435761145efe4fdc66c636feeaac680.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="K52S9327.thumb.jpg.eb261fd36b60016009b3591a9b1b7ecf.jpg" data-fileid="39810" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2020_05/K52S9327.thumb.jpg.eb261fd36b60016009b3591a9b1b7ecf.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="K52S9326.thumb.jpg.ab532a26238db5602c320dc29aaa40ae.jpg" data-fileid="39811" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2020_05/K52S9326.thumb.jpg.ab532a26238db5602c320dc29aaa40ae.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


Wooden handles look nice. Where did you get those from?

If the gasket worth changing from stock? What size is it?

Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## Stanic

Badgerman said:


> Wooden handles look nice. Where did you get those from?
> 
> If the gasket worth changing from stock? What size is it?
> 
> Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


 there are various handles available, for example here, you need to check the thread size of your PF

I prefer the food grade silicone gasket to the black rubber one, this is the 8mm E61 by Cafelat, but there are also others, I think you can get some at TorrToys on ebay


----------



## Stanic

and if you mean the knobs, those are original Lelit


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Badgerman said:


> Wooden handles look nice. Where did you get those from?
> 
> If the gasket worth changing from stock? What size is it?
> 
> Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


Definitely replace the group gasket with a silicone version when you happen to come across them, buy a spare just in case. They do last longer and are softer, however they are easier to damage, specially if you are not careful when removing the shower screen every week for maintenance.

The shower screen is also a good one to replace as less fines can go back into the group. I noticed my the back of my IMS shower screen was significant cleaner than the original one after periodic maintenance.


----------



## Stanic

Had one shot of a natural Ethiopia, temp at "I", PI at 2 bar then open and slowly close the valve, short shot 14g in 20 out. Lots of fruits and juicy stuff, poured a bit too fast so will play with grinder settings later. Machine really lovely, quiet, small and fast heat up. Very happy


----------



## Zoltan

MediumRoastSteam said:


> It's no different to any machine.
> 
> - avoid descaling by using boiler friendly water. Tesco's Ashbeck, Waitrose Lockhills, Volvic, a mix of them, or make your own water using RO or distilled. Osmio Zero Water is a great choice.
> 
> - read the sticker on this forum called "cleanliness next to goodness" or something like that.


 When you use 'boiler friendly water', do you still use the water filter in the tank of the machine? Does it affect the pressure?

For example at my previous machine (Sage Duo Temp Pro) the pressure wasn't high enough when the filter was attached..


----------



## Stanic




----------



## Zoltan

Stanic said:


> View attachment 39829
> 
> 
> View attachment 39830


 I like your mirror  where is it from, or DIY?


----------



## DavecUK

There is always the Lyn Weber " Looking Glass" only £80 or so delivered, perhaps a tad more. 🤣


----------



## JamesMac

My MaraX Machine leaves BB today, cant wait to get started with it and my mignon specialita


----------



## Zoltan

DavecUK said:


> There is always the Lyn Weber " Looking Glass" only £80 or so delivered, perhaps a tad more. 🤣


 Googled it quickly. That price is freaking insane 😲 78 USD plus shipping and I didn't want to buy a £14 mirror from Amazon 🤣


----------



## Stanic

Zoltan said:


> Googled it quickly. That price is freaking insane 😲 78 USD plus shipping and I didn't want to buy a £14 mirror from Amazon 🤣


 Yep it is.

I've got one of these

And a mirror from Rossmann shop


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> Yep it is.
> 
> I've got one of these
> 
> And a mirror from Rossmann shop


 Really Nice, might well pair well with one of these, what's the diameter of the circular bit.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Craft-Mirror-60-Pack-Projects-Diameter/dp/B07CBPHY6V/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

If you buy a pack of these mirrors for a tenner, you will have 59 left over to give to friends.... 😁


----------



## Stanic

DavecUK said:


> Really Nice, might well pair well with one of these, what's the diameter of the circular bit.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Craft-Mirror-60-Pack-Projects-Diameter/dp/B07CBPHY6V/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
> 
> If you buy a pack of these mirrors for a tenner, you will have 59 left over to give to friends.... 😁


 You mean the bit that glues to the mirror? It has around 2 cm in diameter, smallish


----------



## Stanic

Everything is so easy with this machine 

Made a 18g in to 25g out ristretto out of natural Ethiopia with the VST basket with pressure drop off at the end of the shot, and steamed milk at the same time, poured a latte and enjoyed it a lot.

No fuss is what I wanted. Eagerly waiting for the Niche.

This brand is like Pentax in cameras, kind of "overlooked", with great features in small package and low price in comparison with competition.

What would I add? A sort of a barista light would be great


----------



## Zoltan

Stanic said:


> Yep it is.
> 
> I've got one of these
> 
> And a mirror from Rossmann shop


 Thank you. Order placed 

Always wanted to get one, my flatmate was laughing on my yoga moves, but also not really keen to spend too much sterlings on unnecessary items. This seems perfect 👌


----------



## Rob1

There's a whole thread on DIY mirrors.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/49700-homemade-shot-mirror-%C2%A31375/?do=embed&comment=717890&embedComment=717890&embedDo=findComment

Not sure if I managed to do it at the lowest cost. I do like the minimalist look of mine but also like the shine around Stanic's.


----------



## Bicky

Stanic said:


> Everything is so easy with this machine
> 
> Made a 18g in to 25g out ristretto out of natural Ethiopia with the VST basket with pressure drop off at the end of the shot, and steamed milk at the same time, poured a latte and enjoyed it a lot.
> 
> No fuss is what I wanted. Eagerly waiting for the Niche.
> 
> This brand is like Pentax in cameras, kind of "overlooked", with great features in small package and low price in comparison with competition.
> 
> What would I add? A sort of a barista light would be great


 I'm the same, finding this machine a joy to use, and really easy! Already making better coffee and steaming better milk than I ever got from my classic.

About to move on and try the Gaslight beans that came with the machine (thanks BB!). I think these are a more medium/light roast, so planning on changing from setting 0 to 1. What's everyone else been using?


----------



## Rira

DavecUK said:


> Backflushing against a blind filter was to see if you really had a leak, clearly you don't.


 I finally got a chance to backflush when the pressure reaches 10 bar. Water leaks out of a black rubber port on the center front of the machine down at the drip tray. Is that normal?

I cleaned the shower screen and have more water than I previously noticed coming through the valve at the bottom of the e61 grouphead. It also appears yellowy ie coffee stained. I wonder if this is an indication my screen seal could be better?

Thanks for your help again. I am probably asking very obvious questions!


----------



## DavecUK

Rira said:


> I finally got a chance to backflush when the pressure reaches 10 bar. Water leaks out of a black rubber port on the center front of the machine down at the drip tray. Is that normal?
> 
> I cleaned the shower screen and have more water than I previously noticed coming through the valve at the bottom of the e61 grouphead. It also appears yellowy ie coffee stained. I wonder if this is an indication my screen seal could be better?
> 
> Thanks for your help again. I am probably asking very obvious questions!


 All sounds good to me....stop worrying and enjoy the machine 

I also love using the machine, it's still on the bench


----------



## efrain-PR

Badgerman said:


> after a long and agonising wait, there she came
> first, the obligatory sticker pic for Dave (naturally, the power saving mode was on)
> 
> for fun, I've added the Profitec flow valve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> only had time to try it against blind disc but works without issues
> and IMS shower screen plus Cafelt gasket


 Did you remove the drain spring and cam from the lower part of the group head ? The Bianca doesn't have it. The Lelit flow kit has a spring to replace the pre infusion spring and holder.


----------



## Stanic

efrain-PR said:


> Did you remove the drain spring and cam from the lower part of the group head ? The Bianca doesn't have it. The Lelit flow kit has a spring to replace the pre infusion spring and holder.


 The Profitec kit comes with a spring but I'm yet to install it. So far I'm happy with the machine's own pre-infusion.


----------



## efrain-PR

Finally added the Lelit Flow Control Kit to my Mara X. I did remove the bottom drain spring and cam shaft on the recommendation by Lelit, added the pre infusion spring and holder that comes with the kit. Technically the Mara X E61 brew head now has the same components as the Biancas E61 brew head. I also replaced the brewhead dispersion screen with the Biancas screen, the difference between the two is the screen itself has a tighter mesh than the original Mara X screen. The original pre infusion spring is softer (less tension) than the one in the kit, the original drain spring has a similar tension and wire diameter like the new pre infusion spring, probably why Lelit recommends to remove it. Pre flow kit installation, my flow rate was 5.2-5.3 ml/s and the pump pressure 10 bars, after the installation of the flow kit the flow rate decreased to 4.83 ml/s, pump pressure still 10 bars, brew head pressure with valve closed 11 bars, same pressure readings with the blind portafilter. Tomorrow I will start experimenting with the flow rate to see how changes the espresso shots, and if I would need to increase the OPV valve pressure to increase water flow.


----------



## Bicky

The wood looks very smart. 🤤

Meant to say - for those who need to put their machine under a cabinet, felt pads on the feet work a treat! Very easy to move about now, maybe too easy as I now need to support it while locking in the portafilter, or the whole thing can slide 😆


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Bicky said:


> The wood looks very smart.
> Meant to say - for those who need to put their machine under a cabinet, felt pads on the feet work a treat! Very easy to move about now, maybe too easy as I now need to support it while locking in the portafilter, or the whole thing can slide


You don't need to do it so hard!


----------



## Boxerman33

this is probably more a general question than Marax specific but, for those who are using a bottomless PF, do you change your grind size as there's less resistance and therefore the shot time is reduced?


----------



## Badgerman

Boxerman33 said:


> this is probably more a general question than Marax specific but, for those who are using a bottomless PF, do you change your grind size as there's less resistance and therefore the shot time is reduced?


No. Must be unlikely that the coffee falling through the PF will impact shot time.

Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## 17845

Boxerman33 said:


> this is probably more a general question than Marax specific but, for those who are using a bottomless PF, do you change your grind size as there's less resistance and therefore the shot time is reduced?


 I don't, surely the resistance is the basket, not the portafilter itself.


----------



## Boxerman33

Sorry, probably badly phrased. Changed from the Lelit PF and basket to a Rocket bottomless PF and their basket (which appears to have slightly coarser mesh visually) so my shot times for 20g have come down from 40 seconds to around 30-32 secs using the same grind settings as previous and extracting 40g.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Boxerman33 said:


> Sorry, probably badly phrased. Changed from the Lelit PF and basket to a Rocket bottomless PF and their basket (which appears to have slightly coarser mesh visually) so my shot times for 20g have come down from 40 seconds to around 30-32 secs using the same grind settings as previous and extracting 40g.


Swap the baskets around, it should go back to what it was before.

The fact here is that the basket changed. The portafilter change in this context is totally irrelevant.


----------



## 17845

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Swap the baskets around, it should go back to what it was before.
> 
> The fact here is that the basket changed. The portafilter change in this context is totally irrelevant.


 ^^^ This.


----------



## Boxerman33

makes perfect sense and not sure why i didn't think that straight away🤦‍♂️

on the plus side, it's more coffee to make


----------



## Boxerman33

swapped baskets, definitely still around 6 seconds quicker using the bottomless PF though, repeated test 1/2 dozen times.Good job i like my coffee 😄


----------



## Stanic

the Espazzola cleaning tool seems to be quite efficient so far, I used it after each shot and I've also backflushed with water after each session

group brand new

group after 6 shots

back of the shower screen after 6 shots


----------



## robti

Stanic said:


> the Espazzola cleaning tool seems to be quite efficient so far, I used it after each shot and I've also backflushed with water after each session
> 
> group brand new
> 
> group after 6 shots
> 
> back of the shower screen after 6 shots
> 
> View attachment 39903
> 
> 
> View attachment 39906
> 
> 
> View attachment 39907


 Can i ask how you remove the shower screen, seen dave's video and he uses 2 teaspoons ?


----------



## Stanic

robti said:


> Can i ask how you remove the shower screen, seen dave's video and he uses 2 teaspoons ?


 yeah but I use the little screwdriver/can opener of the swiss knife  is easier 😛


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> yeah but I use the little screwdriver/can opener of the swiss knife  is easier 😛


 But I have shares in teaspoons....thank god they are still used in coffee, even though they are called teaspoons. In fact the teaspoons I use I got free in 1984.


----------



## robti

DavecUK said:


> But I have shares in teaspoons....thank god they are still used in coffee, even though they are called teaspoons. In fact the teaspoons I use I got free in 1984.


 Okay so will need to acquire a couple of my mother then, don't use sugar or instant coffee so no teaspoons in the house


----------



## robti

Can I ask another stupid question are we trying to pry the gasket out first along with the shower screen or pry the screen out first ?

Thanks


----------



## DavecUK

robti said:


> Can I ask another stupid question are we trying to pry the gasket out first along with the shower screen or pry the screen out first ?
> 
> Thanks


 The gasket always comes out with the shower screen on an E61. If you can do otherwise, I would love to see a video.


----------



## robti

DavecUK said:


> The gasket always comes out with the shower screen on an E61. If you can do otherwise, I would love to see a video.


 No I meant do I lever the side of the shower screen or try to lever out the gasket, treat me as a simpleton coming from a classic with a screw


----------



## DavecUK

robti said:


> No I meant do I lever the side of the shower screen or try to lever out the gasket, treat me as a simpleton coming from a classic with a screw


 Upside down spoons in hand, bowl of spoon in portafilter "ear" gaps in group, tips of spoons in small groove around side of shower screen (just above the mesh) and lever out from both sides at once.

The first few times it will be harder but after that it will come out very easy and the whole cleaning literally takes about as long as it does to wash and dry a cup..


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Boxerman33 said:


> swapped baskets, definitely still around 6 seconds quicker using the bottomless PF though, repeated test 1/2 dozen times.Good job i like my coffee


It takes 6 seconds for the first drops to be in sight after pouring down from the basket and flowing through a very hot metal spout all the way to where you can see it.

With the bottomless... that's not the case (because it's bottomless).


----------



## robti

DavecUK said:


> Upside down spoons in hand, bowl of spoon in portafilter "ear" gaps in group, tips of spoons in small groove around side of shower screen (just above the mesh) and lever out from both sides at once.
> 
> The first few times it will be harder but after that it will come out very easy and the whole cleaning literally takes about as long as it does to wash and dry a cup..


 and cleaned, if it was a s/h machine i would have been right in amongst it, but new i like to ask.

Many thanks for treating me gently👨‍🏫


----------



## DavecUK

robti said:


> and cleaned, if it was a s/h machine i would have been right in amongst it, but new i like to ask.
> 
> Many thanks for treating me gently👨‍🏫


 Always good to ask, subscribe to my youtube site and check out my review site. Even if you don't want to buy a machine the reviews have useful information and I don't always put all the info in every review. A good learning experience whenever you got nothing better to do. I've don't lots of videos on stuff and tended to use YouTube as a review video dumping ground until halfway through last year when I tried to organise it a bit.


----------



## Aamz23

What are the best gaskets, shower screen, naked pf, bst baskets etc to buy?

in fact what are the best accessories to go with the Mara X


----------



## Stanic

DavecUK said:


> But I have shares in teaspoons....thank god they are still used in coffee, even though they are called teaspoons. In fact the teaspoons I use I got free in 1984.


 I need some of those because my spoons suck at removing the screen 😀


----------



## Boxerman33

MediumRoastSteam said:


> It takes 6 seconds for the first drops to be in sight after pouring down from the basket and flowing through a very hot metal spout all the way to where you can see it.
> 
> With the bottomless... that's not the case (because it's bottomless).


 what's got me thinking is that the bottomless PF has introduced another variable!

With the old twin spout PF, i aimed for a benchmark of 20g in, 40g out in 40 seconds from lifting the lever, just to get consistency with different coffee beans and to 'dial in' the grind size to those numbers. However, with the new bottomless PF i still put 20g in to get 40g out but in 32 secs using the same grind. I'm now wondering if i should go finer to get back to 40 sec shot time 🤷‍♂️


----------



## DavecUK

Boxerman33 said:


> what's got me thinking is that the bottomless PF has introduced another variable!
> 
> With the old twin spout PF, i aimed for a benchmark of 20g in, 40g out in 40 seconds from lifting the lever, just to get consistency with different coffee beans and to 'dial in' the grind size to those numbers. However, with the new bottomless PF i still put 20g in to get 40g out but in 32 secs using the same grind. I'm now wondering if i should go finer to get back to 40 sec shot time 🤷‍♂️


 I found the sweet spot to be around 38s with a bottomless portafilter+MaraX, of course that depends somewhat on the coffee and dose.


----------



## Badgerman

DavecUK said:


> Upside down spoons in hand, bowl of spoon in portafilter "ear" gaps in group, tips of spoons in small groove around side of shower screen (just above the mesh) and lever out from both sides at once.
> The first few times it will be harder but after that it will come out very easy and the whole cleaning literally takes about as long as it does to wash and dry a cup..


Yep. This is what I did after seeing your video. Also easier to do when hot. Mine pops out using only one lug. Still snug fit for when PF is in.

Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## Zoltan

DavecUK said:


> I found the sweet spot to be around 38s with a bottomless portafilter+MaraX, of course that depends somewhat on the coffee and dose.


 With the original stock basket or also with a precision one which is causing faster extraction, isn't? (At same grinder setting)


----------



## DavecUK

Zoltan said:


> With the original stock basket or also with a precision one which is causing faster extraction, isn't?


 Not sure, I'm not always sure which basket I have in, it was a stock basked in my bottomless, nothing special, looked very similar to the lelit.


----------



## Boxerman33

i'll do a few shots with different grinds/baskets etc and see what they taste like in comparison to each other, aiming for around 38-40 seconds on a 20g shot whichever equipment i use


----------



## Stanic

Aamz23 said:


> What are the best gaskets, shower screen, naked pf, bst baskets etc to buy?
> 
> in fact what are the best accessories to go with the Mara X


 The ones you can afford..

The best is a relative term. I can only say what I have but can't say whether it is the best.

Cafelat group gasket, IMS shower screen and baskets, also VST baskets, portafilter - any that fits e61 group..

Scales..depends on budget really you can go from 15£ to.........


----------



## Stanic

The real testament of the quality of this machine is that even the coffee I roasted is drinkable


----------



## Zoltan

Good morning,

Could you help me please.

I just realized yesterday and saw it again, today morning, that after a while my filter basket is visible during the extraction.

First picture around 30s, second one is 17s.

Is it tamping/distributing issue?

AlsoI saw pressure is dropping between 0.5-1 bar when this happens. From around 10.5 to 10-9.5


----------



## Stanic

Probably distribution issue but I would say this is fairly common and not the end of the world. Important is that it tastes good.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Agree with Stanic. Practice and experience make perfection.

Dosing, distribution and levelling is very important.

But how does it taste?


----------



## Zoltan

Stanic said:


> Probably distribution issue but I would say this is fairly common and not the end of the world. Important is that it tastes good.


 Thanks. I just had no idea if I made something wrong and what. Taste is fine fortunately.


----------



## Zoltan

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Agree with Stanic. Practice and experience make perfection.
> 
> Dosing, distribution and levelling is very important.
> 
> But how does it taste?


 I do practice a lot. Still learning after my previous machine (Sage Duo Temp Pro)

I knew VST basket isn't so forgivable, that's the reason I bought it. Force myself to do it better and better 😁

Taste is fine, bit bitterish but also can taste few notes. Much better than Starbucks, Costa, Nero, etc 😆


----------



## damo

not much to do with the MaraX itself but I thought I would ask here as I am also learning a lot with this new machine

Do you find that you need to grind finer as the beans get older ? or maybe it's just the current hot weather but I find that my beans are changing by the day and extraction gets quicker and quicker (same weight in / out)


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

damo said:


> Do you find that you need to grind finer as the beans get older ?


As a rule of thumb, yes. There are other factors too, like humidity and temperature.


----------



## Stanic

The last thing (haha) I wanted to do was to change the original portafilter handle to a wooden one, as well as unscrew the spout for better cleaning and to be able to change it for a single or a triple one.

The handle is attached with a threadlocker, you need to heat up the neck of the portafilter properly with a kitchen torch. This melts the plastic a bit but this is just a cheap handle so I wasn't too worried. It is a bitch to unscrew anyway. The thread size is M12 for anyone looking to change it.

The spout isn't fixed but screwed on tightly, you need to be careful not to damage it.


----------



## JamesMac

got mine today, what a thing of beauty . Ran 0.5kg beans through my new specilita grinder to try dial it in and I'm getting the first drips after 10 seconds and then 28 seconds for 36g out from 18g dose. Puck falls out in one piece but does have a tiny bit of standing water on it before knockout. Is this normal or have I gone too fine?

Too late at night for drinking it so ill have to taste test tomorrow. I was aiming for 30 seconds but any finer on the grinder and the time jumps up to 39 seconds to get 36g out.

Can't wait for the morning coffee


----------



## Mrboots2u

JamesMac said:


> got mine today, what a thing of beauty . Ran 0.5kg beans through my new specilita grinder to try dial it in and I'm getting the first drips after 10 seconds and then 28 seconds for 36g out from 18g dose. Puck falls out in one piece but does have a tiny bit of standing water on it before knockout. Is this normal or have I gone too fine?
> 
> Too late at night for drinking it so ill have to taste test tomorrow. I was aiming for 30 seconds but any finer on the grinder and the time jumps up to 39 seconds to get 36g out.
> 
> Can't wait for the morning coffee


 Dont about the puck, or the exact length of time the shot takes, the time is not as important as the relationship of coffee used to espresso made.

Personally time the shot from when you lift the lever , this is when water hits the puck.

You have gone too fine if i tastes bad.

Enjoy


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Could anyone please let me know the total length of the MaraX, from the front of the front feet to the back of the back feet?

Thank you.


----------



## efrain-PR

Could anyone please let me know the total length of the MaraX, from the front of the front feet to the back of the back feet?

Thank you.

Front feet to back feet is 15 inches. Front edge to back edge is 16 1/8 inches.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

efrain-PR said:


> Could anyone please let me know the total length of the MaraX, from the front of the front feet to the back of the back feet?
> 
> Thank you.
> Front feet to back feet is 15 inches. Front edge to back edge is 16 1/8 inches.


Thank you.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

I was thinking this morning about this machine. The more I read and watch videos about it, the more it grows on me.

Heat exchange simplicity combined with temp stability. I noticed that the pressure in the boiler fluctuates when it's doing its thing.

As most of us make a coffee and then steam, in my case, it's only one coffee at a time.

Is there a way to trick the machine or, could there be in a future revision of the software or machine where you could press a switch where the boiler pressure increases to, say, 1.5 bar and stays there? You can then turn said switch off when you finish steaming. In a way, said switch would simply turn the machine into a dumb HX machine.

Edit: I'm re-reading Dave's review again... it seems it already has such function!  (I'll carry on reading).

Edit 2: ok, I finished reading the review. If the switch to turn the machine from "clever" to "dumb" was more accessible, or have another switch more accessible which would just optimise for steaming at 1.4 bar, then one could just turn said switch on/off easily just for steaming after a shot.

For me, the perfect MaraX (MaraY? ) would have such switch, a solenoid operated e61 like the Minima and a recessive hot water tap.


----------



## JamesMac

Learning curve from me switching from bean to cup but it really is a little tank of a thing, solid build quality.


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> way, said switch would simply turn the machine into a dumb HX machine.
> 
> Edit: I'm re-reading Dave's review again... it seems it already has such function!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I'll carry on reading).


 It does indeed but I have never needed to use it apart from testing. If you are steaming it keeps the steam power active and if you want to steam, on mine I can lift the lever for a second and wait 15 sec or so. As per lelit manual.

Here is an undocumented tip I found during testing, try purging some steam through the wand and you can also fire up the boiler. ????

It's a fine machine.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> It does indeed but I have never needed to use it apart from testing. If you are steaming it keeps the steam power active and if you want to steam, on mine I can lift the lever for a second and wait 15 sec or so. As per lelit manual.
> Here is an undocumented tip I found during testing, try purging some steam through the wand and you can also fire up the boiler.
> It's a fine machine.


Dave you are twisting my arm....


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Dave you are twisting my arm....


 It's a good machine I'm sure you would like it. You have read my review so have all the info ????


----------



## Stanic

yep purging the steam wand does wake up the boiler on mine as well


----------



## Stanic

my OPV was set to just above 10 bar, I've tuned it down a bit so that when brewing, I hit 8,5 bar max at the group manometer


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> my OPV was set to just above 10 bar, I've tuned it down a bit so that when brewing, I hit 8,5 bar max at the group manometer


 Ideally it should be 9 against a blind filter...


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

I have another question related to this machine!

Say I have 2 friends around and they all want a flat white. So I'm making three flat whites.

- Would the brew temperature be stable if I brew, then steam, then brew then steam, ten brew then steam?

- Would the steam and brew temperature be stable if I brew and steam each at the same time?

- Would it be better instead to brew all 3 coffees and then steam the milk at the end?

Thanks!


----------



## Stanic

1. yes

2. yes

3. probably not, maybe, if you make a split double and a single and them steam? I mean if you leave the 'spros sitting there they lose some flavour already cooling down


----------



## Stanic

DavecUK said:


> Ideally it should be 9 against a blind filter...


 I was getting 9.5 max when brewing which was a bit annoying

I am now getting 9.3-9.5 against blind filter


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Stanic said:


> 1. yes
> 2. yes
> 3. probably not, maybe, if you make a split double and a single and them steam? I mean if you leave the 'spros sitting there they lose some flavour already cooling down


So, when you doing steam + brew at the same time, what would the steam pressure be? Will it vary or it will detect its steaming? If the boiler pressure is kept up, won't that overheat things?


----------



## JamesMac

DavecUK said:


> It does indeed but I have never needed to use it apart from testing. If you are steaming it keeps the steam power active and if you want to steam, on mine I can lift the lever for a second and wait 15 sec or so. As per lelit manual.
> 
> Here is an undocumented tip I found during testing, try purging some steam through the wand and you can also fire up the boiler. 😉
> 
> It's a fine machine.


 Thats where I think I'm going wrong . Tried my first milk drinks this morning and My steam pressure is dropping to 0.5 bar and its taking quite a while to heat a 35cl jug filled below the start of the spout. Im brewing then going to get milk , pouring etc. Should you lift the lever just before steaming to give it another quick boost?


----------



## Stanic

as per Dave's review, if there is a pause of more than 5 minutes the group overheats and needs 15 minutes to shed the heat

if you pull shots it does not - I mean it does but very slightly (this is also visible in Lelit insider's videos 



, 



)

what I do/get: machine is idle, at "I" setting, the boiler pressure is 0.6 bar, I grind, pour milk in the jug, I prep the puck, purge the wand - now the pressure starts to rise to 1.5 -1.6 bar, lock the PF in, get scales plus cup, start the shot, steam the milk (the boiler pressure is kept stable), finish shot, pour milk, clean with Espazzola

the boiler pressure will reach 1.5-1.6 and stay there as long as you're pulling shots or using the wand


----------



## jaffro

DavecUK said:


> Ideally it should be 9 against a blind filter...


 Mine is at 10. I was wondering about dropping it. I assume its an easy process?

I'm assuming that adjusting the OPV won't have any impact on anything clever that the machine is doing before I look at changing anything?


----------



## Stanic

jaffro said:


> Mine is at 10. I was wondering about dropping it. I assume its an easy process?
> 
> I'm assuming that adjusting the OPV won't have any impact on anything clever that the machine is doing before I look at changing anything?


 it is easy, there are 6 screws on top you need to unscrew, there are 2 more on the top holding the side panels, that don't have to be unscrewed, the OPV is on the left (when you're facing front of machine), clockwise rotation of its nut increases the set pressure, anticlockwise decreases


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

jaffro said:


> Mine is at 10. I was wondering about dropping it. I assume its an easy process?
> I'm assuming that adjusting the OPV won't have any impact on anything clever that the machine is doing before I look at changing anything?


Is it at 10 with a blind filter or when making coffee? The old rule with the gaggia Classic was to set the pressure to 10 bar with a blind filter (it's referred to "static pressure", not sure if it's he right term, but that's what I've seen used) which would result in 9 bar (dynamic) when brewing. This was when the pressure is measure at the group with a PF attached to a pressure gauge.


----------



## robti

well i was already to complete a purchase of the wooden handles on amazon which i put in my basket last night and they have shot up with no new stock still sitting with 2 sets in stock so anywhere else to try, BB only do the black wood sets


----------



## Stanic

robti said:


> well i was already to complete a purchase of the wooden handles on amazon which i put in my basket last night and they have shot up with no new stock still sitting with 2 sets in stock so anywhere else to try, BB only do the black wood sets


 You mean the "Black Wood Kit for Lelit Bianca" for £249?


----------



## Adam.f

I see the next arrival for the MaraX at BB is now late/end of June or later. Taking preorders now for the next batch.


----------



## robti

Stanic said:


> You mean the "Black Wood Kit for Lelit Bianca" for £249?


 no was going for the walnut but they upped the price


----------



## Stanic

robti said:


> no was going for the walnut but they upped the price


 I've got mine from the lamacchinadelcaffe.com


----------



## robti

thanks amazon uk had them around the low £70 but not now, i should have jumped but thought i would search this morning, oh well


----------



## Jony

robti said:


> thanks amazon uk had them around the low £70 but not now, i should have jumped but thought i would search this morning, oh well


 Like a tramp on chips.


----------



## efrain-PR

DavecUK said:


> t does indeed but I have never needed to use it apart from testing. If you are steaming it keeps the steam power active and if you want to steam, on mine I can lift the lever for a second and wait 15 sec or so. As per lelit manual.
> 
> Here is an undocumented tip I found during testing, try purging some steam through the wand and you can also fire up the boiler. 😉
> 
> It's a fine machine.


 Dave that's exactly the first thing I do every morning, since I have mine on a smart switch and may sleep longer than planned, and the steam boiler pressure is showing 1 bar.


----------



## jaffro

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Is it at 10 with a blind filter or when making coffee? The old rule with the gaggia Classic was to set the pressure to 10 bar with a blind filter (it's referred to "static pressure", not sure if it's he right term, but that's what I've seen used) which would result in 9 bar (dynamic) when brewing. This was when the pressure is measure at the group with a PF attached to a pressure gauge.


 Yeah that's what I did with my classic. On this one there doesn't seem to be much difference between coffee and the blank disk, which I find weird. Coffee is definitely coming out at 10, with disk maybe slightly over.

Machine is off now, but I'll double check tomorrow and take pictures!


----------



## Bicky

JamesMac said:


> Thats where I think I'm going wrong . Tried my first milk drinks this morning and My steam pressure is dropping to 0.5 bar and its taking quite a while to heat a 35cl jug filled below the start of the spout. Im brewing then going to get milk , pouring etc. Should you lift the lever just before steaming to give it another quick boost?


 Mine definitely takes more than 15s to get up to full steam pressure. I've been doing a small flush just before grinding etc. (I like to use the water to warm my cup anyway), that way the pressure is always at ~1.5 bar by the time my shot is done and I start steaming. This is working really well for me.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Could anyone with callipers please confirm the width of the tamper which comes with the MaraX? Many thanks.


----------



## Bicky

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Could anyone with callipers please confirm the width of the tamper which comes with the MaraX? Many thanks.


 No callipers, but it does say 58.55mm on it....are you looking to double check this? It does seem a really nice fit to me, with the baskets that come with it anyway.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Bicky said:


> No callipers, but it does say 58.55mm on it....are you looking to double check this? It does seem a really nice fit to me, with the baskets that come with it anyway.


No, thank you. That's good enough. I didn't realise it had written 58.55mm on it. I thought it was just a box standard 58mm tamper. Many thanks!


----------



## 17845

robti said:


> thanks amazon uk had them around the low £70 but not now, i should have jumped but thought i would search this morning, oh well


 Amazons new price seems to be in line with other retailers

I think the £67 price stood when they had a load more in stock (a need to shed stock)

I was lucky as I had a bit of spendo and needed some retail therapy.

I have noticed that on alot of photos the steamer and boiler water knobs do not match, as mine do not.


----------



## Stanic

For matching pair you would probably have to fork out a lot more.

What's down there? I've checked out the Hx circuit valve located on the bottom of the machine. Excellent feature for descaling or when transporting the machine. Nice ball valve.


----------



## Stanic

I've also put the felt pads on the feet -but just the rear two, this gives me a stable machine when locking the PF in but still movable with the front feet lifted


----------



## Jony

Is joey not doing them.


----------



## Rira

Stanic said:


> For matching pair you would probably have to fork out a lot more.
> 
> What's down there? I've checked out the Hx circuit valve located on the bottom of the machine. Excellent feature for descaling or when transporting the machine. Nice ball valve.
> 
> View attachment 40114


 Anypne know what the clear rubbery tubing running by the ball valve into the small brass fitting is?

Also how are people finding milk steaming. Can't seem to get the hang of it.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Rira said:


> Anypne know what the clear rubbery tubing running by the ball valve into the small brass fitting is?


That's the venting from the over pressure valve (OPV) and the vacuum breaker. Ends at the drip tray.

If you look at the top of the machine, you'll see where they are connected to.


----------



## Stanic

milk steaming is not an issue for me, but I've got some experience from different machines so I've got the hang of it


----------



## Bicky

Rira said:


> Anypne know what the clear rubbery tubing running by the ball valve into the small brass fitting is?
> 
> Also how are people finding milk steaming. Can't seem to get the hang of it.


 It's not much, but this is honestly better than I could ever do with the Classic!


----------



## JamesMac

Bicky said:


> It's not much, but this is honestly better than I could ever do with the Classic!
> 
> View attachment 40125


 I wont show you this mornings attempt haha that looks epic though, I'd be delighted


----------



## Craigzad

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That's the venting from the over pressure valve (OPV) and the vacuum breaker. Ends at the drip tray.
> 
> If you look at the top of the machine, you'll see where they are connected to.


 How much water do you guys get from there when pulling shots?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Craigzad said:


> How much water do you guys get from there when pulling shots?


Have a long read, from post #230 onwards.


----------



## MancBlue

Craigzad said:


> How much water do you guys get from there when pulling shots?


 More than I would like, constantly outputting during the shot and then a splurge when the lever's returned, I feels like too much pressure into the puck hence the over pressure release but the coffee output is about right so don't want to go courser to reduce the pressure. I'm just accepting tbh.


----------



## Zoltan

Stanic said:


> it is easy, there are 6 screws on top you need to unscrew, there are 2 more on the top holding the side panels, that don't have to be unscrewed, the OPV is on the left (when you're facing front of machine), clockwise rotation of its nut increases the set pressure, anticlockwise decreases


 Is there any 'how to do video'? I can't find any unfortunately and I'd feel safer following that 😅

Mine is at 10.5 bar against the blind filter and 10 when pulling a shot. Sometimes 9.5 when grinding too coarse and the extraction is too fast.


----------



## jaffro

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Is it at 10 with a blind filter or when making coffee? The old rule with the gaggia Classic was to set the pressure to 10 bar with a blind filter (it's referred to "static pressure", not sure if it's he right term, but that's what I've seen used) which would result in 9 bar (dynamic) when brewing. This was when the pressure is measure at the group with a PF attached to a pressure gauge.


 Here we go. Mine is similar to @Zoltan

First picture is when pulling a real shot, second is the blind basket.

(just realised I need to give the front of the machine a quick wipe down, don't usually get my head down this close to it!)


----------



## Zoltan

jaffro said:


> Here we go. Mine is similar to @Zoltan
> 
> First picture is when pulling a real shot, second is the blind basket.
> 
> (just realised I need to give the front of the machine a quick wipe down, don't usually get my head down this close to it!)
> 
> View attachment 40170
> 
> 
> View attachment 40171


 Damnit, I'm not unique anymore 😆


----------



## robti

how are you all getting your steam up so high i'm getting around0.8/0.9 after opening the steam valve for a couple of seconds then getting coffee then steaming ?


----------



## Stanic

Zoltan said:


> Is there any 'how to do video'? I can't find any unfortunately and I'd feel safer following that 😅
> 
> Mine is at 10.5 bar against the blind filter and 10 when pulling a shot. Sometimes 9.5 when grinding too coarse and the extraction is too fast.


 I think here





[/QUOTE]

If you make a video that would help with diagnosis


----------



## Zoltan

> 4 hours ago, Stanic said:
> 
> I think here


 I watched it and got it: usually 4 turns a bar. But still don't really know what to turn 🙄😆

I want to do it myself but never done this before nor with any other machines.


----------



## DavecUK

Turn the nut shown by the green arrow, remove the tube first or hold it so it doesn't twist and kink., anticlockwise to lower, clockwise to raise pressure. Watch the video for how to remove the case. Try 1 turn at a time, not 4.


----------



## Zoltan

DavecUK said:


> Turn the nut shown by the green arrow, remove the tube first or hold it so it doesn't twist and kink., anticlockwise to lower, clockwise to raise pressure. Watch the video for how to remove the case. Try 1 turn at a time, not 4.
> 
> View attachment 40210


 Thank you very much, that green arrow is helpful. Hopefully I'll be able to manage it


----------



## Stanic

Slowly getting back the hang of the latte

"art".. While the wand and tip are good imo I still think that frothing would be easier for me with a single hole tip


----------



## Tom's presso

Does anybody know how to power on the Mara X with a timer if I want to have it warmed up for the time I wake up


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Stanic said:


> Slowly getting back the hang of the latte
> "art".. While the wand and tip are good imo I still think that frothing would be easier for me with a single hole tip
> <img alt="IMG_20200526_164938.thumb.jpg.a00bcb2a729b11776a81e30f2e9d0497.jpg" data-fileid="40212" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2020_05/IMG_20200526_164938.thumb.jpg.a00bcb2a729b11776a81e30f2e9d0497.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


Is it possible to get replacement tips? I too never got on with a two hole steam tip, but suppose practice will sort it out. I liked the 4 hole steam tip which came with a Profitec 700. If the boiler is at 1.5 bar pressure, a 4 hole should not be a problem. You could try 3 maybe?

What worked for me with the two hole back then was ghosting:


----------



## 17845

If the Mara X is the same wand as the Mara PL62

Then I know this one fits :- Expobar Single Hole Steam Nozzle M8.5 + O'ring OEM Part No. 30370190

I would imagine the rest of the range would also fit.


----------



## Stanic

looks like it will fit


----------



## Boxerman33

Bit OT, can anyone confirm if their MaraX came with both a single and dual spouted portafilter? I seem to recall mine did but i can't access my box of spares as i stuck it in the loft and have a broken wrist so can't currently climb in to check? Just fancy running some test shots through single, double and naked ones to see what difference i see in extraction times.


----------



## robti

Only twin with mine


----------



## DavecUK




----------



## Boxerman33

thanks guys, might go and buy one out of curiosity to see how it compares to the twin and naked, plus i like how they look!


----------



## damo

As we are starting to share pictures... sorry I couldn't resist... (Does not include the large number of latte art fails)


----------



## Zoltan

DavecUK said:


> Turn the nut shown by the green arrow, remove the tube first or hold it so it doesn't twist and kink., anticlockwise to lower, clockwise to raise pressure. Watch the video for how to remove the case. Try 1 turn at a time, not 4.
> 
> View attachment 40210


 Thanks again, especially for the 1 turn a time advice.

After one turn the pressure dropped from 10.5 to under 9 against blind filter.

Turned it back, few degrees (on the picture: well scratched part was at the | scratched place) and pressure was a bit above 9 bar.

I was playing with the nut, tried small moves. Ended up a bit less than 9 bar during extraction and a bit more against blind filter.


----------



## potter985

A new video from lelit. How to open Mara X. It has been previously posted but...


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Zoltan said:


> Thanks again, especially for the 1 turn a time advice.
> After one turn the pressure dropped from 10.5 to under 9 against blind filter.
> Turned it back, few degrees (on the picture: well scratched part was at the | scratched place) and pressure was a bit above 9 bar.
> I was playing with the nut, tried small moves. Ended up a bit less than 9 bar during extraction and a bit more against blind filter.
> <img alt="IMG_20200527_135404.thumb.jpg.a128e74981e9d77c4a9b41adefa4d970.jpg" data-fileid="40282" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2020_05/IMG_20200527_135404.thumb.jpg.a128e74981e9d77c4a9b41adefa4d970.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="IMG_20200527_131247.thumb.jpg.c63b3f8b3e015ff9cd5b40f0ae79189f.jpg" data-fileid="40283" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2020_05/IMG_20200527_131247.thumb.jpg.c63b3f8b3e015ff9cd5b40f0ae79189f.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


Me thinks all set you are.  - enjoy your machine!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

I have a question, mainly related to coffee machine architecture rather than the MaraX itself.










So, I know the green arrow is the expansion valve. But what's the bit circled in red? I'm assuming it's the pump? Why is there a vent there, with a hose attached, to the drip tray?

And, am I correct in saying that any difference in pressure between the pump and what's set in the OPV (green) will be vented via the hose pointed by the green arrow?

Sorry for the stupid questions!


----------



## DavecUK

Watch my review videos on the wordpress site, specifically the internal tour, in the video, I explain the parts.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> Watch my review videos on the wordpress site, specifically the internal tour, in the video, I explain the parts.


Ha! Brew pressure reset solenoid! Of course, not all machines have it, that's what was throwing me out! Thanks!


----------



## Stanic

Rira said:


> Anypne know what the clear rubbery tubing running by the ball valve into the small brass fitting is?


 in this video you can see the whole assembly:


----------



## Crackazz

Zoltan said:


> Thanks again, especially for the 1 turn a time advice.
> 
> After one turn the pressure dropped from 10.5 to under 9 against blind filter.
> 
> Turned it back, few degrees (on the picture: well scratched part was at the | scratched place) and pressure was a bit above 9 bar.
> 
> I was playing with the nut, tried small moves. Ended up a bit less than 9 bar during extraction and a bit more against blind filter.
> 
> View attachment 40282
> 
> 
> View attachment 40283


 Are you seeing any benefits from doing this? Mine is around 10.5 with a blind and sits below that during making a espresso. If the dose and grind are right it doesn't hit 10 during the extraction anyway.


----------



## Stanic

Crackazz said:


> Are you seeing any benefits from doing this? Mine is around 10.5 with a blind and sits below that during making a espresso. If the dose and grind are right it doesn't hit 10 during the extraction anyway.


 reducing possibility of over-extraction


----------



## Mailman

Hi all,

I'm looking at buying one of these and have a question about using with a smart plug. If the coffee lever is accidentally placed in the on postion while the machine is off, and then a smart plug turns it while I'm in bed, will the machine cut out automatically at any point? Will it still dump out all of the water in the tank? Will the pump continue to run until the coffee lever is manually placed in the off position or power is removed?

Was looking at the Rancillio Silvia during my research and a few people have reported ruining their machine with a similar situation and I was wandering if it applied with the Marax!


----------



## Stanic

most likely pump the tank out then turn off the pump and heating element


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Mailman said:


> Hi all,
> I'm looking at buying one of these and have a question about using with a smart plug. If the coffee lever is accidentally placed in the on postion while the machine is off, and then a smart plug turns it while I'm in bed, will the machine cut out automatically at any point? Will it still dump out all of the water in the tank? Will the pump continue to run until the coffee lever is manually placed in the off position or power is removed?
> Was looking at the Rancillio Silvia during my research and a few people have reported ruining their machine with a similar situation and I was wandering if it applied with the Marax!


Most prosumer machines have a water level sensor in the tank. As soon as the water is too low, the machine will turn itself off, cutting the pump and the heating element.

This is extremely annoying as sometimes you are pulling a shot, tank is almost about to go empty, and then.... the pump cuts off, mid shot. However, the MaraX has something called "last shot protection" which will allow you to pull the shot, and then the safety mechanism kicks in.

I don't know the exact implementation of the last shot protection, so unsure about exactly what are the conditions for the pump and heating element to cut off.

Regardless, the tank is 2.5 litres or more.... he drip tray is maybe 700ml??? Before it overfills?

Regardless, is that a real worry? Are you worried that someone in the middle of the night will lift the lever up?


----------



## Rob1

I can't imagine how anybody would ever accidentally lift the lever up and leave it in that position. Or how that would happen with any other machine to be honest.

But there's probably protection to prevent the pump from running for long enough to empty the tank as it would overheat. The last shot protection on the minima only works when the machine has finished a shot or autofill is triggered so wouldn't actually prevent the tank from emptying if the pump was switched to the on position when the machine started up. After about 1min 30secs it would throw an error though. It's probably no different for the Mara X at least as far as LSP goes.


----------



## bbjwvr6

Mailman said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm looking at buying one of these and have a question about using with a smart plug. If the coffee lever is accidentally placed in the on postion while the machine is off, and then a smart plug turns it while I'm in bed, will the machine cut out automatically at any point? Will it still dump out all of the water in the tank? Will the pump continue to run until the coffee lever is manually placed in the off position or power is removed?
> 
> Was looking at the Rancillio Silvia during my research and a few people have reported ruining their machine with a similar situation and I was wandering if it applied with the Marax!


 The machine does not start the pump immediately, if at all, if the lever is in the raised position when the machine powers on. This is because this is the method to change whether standby mode is enabled or disabled. See the Lelit Inside video on this topic.


----------



## Mailman

Thanks for the replies all.

To be honest it is not something I really thought about until I read a few stories about similar with the Rancilio Silvia. How it would even get in to that position in the first place, I'm not sure, but I'm sure I'd manage it somehow if there was no protection in the machine! 😂 Perhaps it's different with that machine as the pump switch is a push one rather than a lever and easier to press the switch accidentally on if cleaning the front or similar.

The standby mode switch demo is re-assuring.


----------



## Stanic

Silvia has no empty-boiler sensor/ element switch so that is different

yeah as per bbjwvr6's post the machine will just stand there blinking .)


----------



## borez

Stanic said:


> Silvia has no empty-boiler sensor/ element switch so that is different
> 
> yeah as per bbjwvr6's post the machine will just stand there blinking .)


 I can confirm that! was giving the machine a wipe down upon unboxing, and left the lever in operational status.

Turned the machine on expecting to fill up, only to find the machine blinking. Freaked out for a while until I realised the lever was pushed down. 😄


----------



## efrain-PR

MediumRoastSteam said:


> This is extremely annoying as sometimes you are pulling a shot, tank is almost about to go empty, and then.... the pump cuts off, mid shot. However, the MaraX has something called "last shot protection" which will allow you to pull the shot, and then the safety mechanism kicks in.
> 
> I don't know the exact implementation of the last shot protection, so unsure about exactly what are the conditions for the pump and heating element to cut off.


 The shot protection really works. The other day I was experimenting with the flow control, and didn't pay attention to that I was pulling consecutive shots and the amount of water used. I finished my espresso shot, then I was going to do a quick flush of the shower screen to remove any left over coffee grounds and Mara X wouldn't do it , so I check the water tank and it was empty, partially refill it and, went right to ready, no warmup period required.


----------



## PD2020

I'm new to the forum so hi to everybody and thank you for providing a fantastic source of knowledge for newbies like me.

I also find MaraX super interesting.

As a beginner I'm struggling a bit to understand the different numbers for the drip tray water level. I was wondering if you could help me with that.

DaveC (post #265)



> Pull shot 30-35s (17g coffee 35g output)
> 
> ...
> 
> Total Water from Vent after shot = 22.5ml
> 
> Total Water in drip tray = 15-20 ml depending on length of shot
> 
> Total water usage per double shot 37.5 to 40.5ml.


 DaveC (post #267)



> The total water usage per double espresso shot including venting, coffee wetting, and expansion valve run-off (with it's 15-20ml) and the water in the shot itself, would be approximately 80ml, no more.


 DaveC (post #304)



> I decided to put 35 to 50 ml extra water as a result of the decision (back closer to original estimate) + the 22.5 you get from the group vent after a shot, means a figure of around 50 to 70ml per shot depending on coffee type and shot time e.g. 27 to 37s.


 Badgerman (post #301)



> That's the drip tray from heating for 1 hour, 4 shots (38gm in 40sec) and 4 steams. No flush or end rinse. [showing a pic of Pyrex with 500ml in it]


 Armedcor (post #268)



> My first shot I ground around 20 on the niche and it was too fine?! Ended up with my shot weight of 38g after 48 seconds. In the drip tray I had bang on 100ml of water.
> My second shot was better grind wise but still a bit too fine. 38g out in 41 seconds. Water left in the drip dray - just under 80ml


 *My Question:* Do I understand correctly that Dave's machine produced 20ml+22.5ml water in drip tray for 35s-long/35g-output shots, but for Armedcor it was 80ml for 41s-long/38g-output shots?

Output and timing are comparable. Which factors *decrease* the amount of water in the tray?

Just to be clear, yes, I do understand that MaraX is supposed to work like this because the Expansion Valve doesn't lead back to the tank but then you get a lovely gradual preinfusion in change  If that's the trade-off I'll take it preinfusion any day  My question is simply about understanding how stuff works 

Thank you once again. I'm enjoying this forum a lot!


----------



## Nikko

PD2020 said:


> Just to be clear, yes, I do understand that MaraX is supposed to work like this because the Expansion Valve doesn't lead back to the tank but then you get a lovely gradual preinfusion in change  If that's the trade-off I'll take it preinfusion any day  My question is simply about understanding how stuff works
> 
> Thank you once again. I'm enjoying this forum a lot!


 The "expansion" valve performs a pressure control function and where the excess water is dumped has nothing to do with the gradual pressure ramp up. That is purely a function of the e61 group.

In this case Lelit decided to waste the excess water.


----------



## Tom's presso

Hi friends. I'm new to this forum as a happy owner of the Mara X for three weeks now. Does anybody know if there's a way to power on the Mara X with a timer if I want to have it warmed up for the time I wake up  .


----------



## robti

Got mine on a smart plug timer, comes on at 5am and off at 9.30 which gives me around 5 coffees in the morning, usually up at around 5.30 so 30 minutes heating up


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Tom said:


> Hi friends. I'm new to this forum as a happy owner of the Mara X for three weeks now. Does anybody know if there's a way to power on the Mara X with a timer if I want to have it warmed up for the time I wake up .


The machine as a mechanical on/off switch, so you can add a smart plug or timer to it, providing you leave the switch in the on position, of course.


----------



## Tom's presso

OMG, what a stupid I am. The hidden switch confused my tought of swiching on and off. Thank you guys!
I have to learn what the hidden switch is good for, as the standby mode is set up with the procedure shown on the video.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Tom said:


> OMG, what a stupid I am. The hidden switch confused my tought of swiching on and off. Thank you guys!
> I have to learn what the hidden switch is good for, as the standby mode is set up with the procedure shown on the video.


Errr....

Did you read Dave's review? (Better even to read this thread really, from start to finish). I don't think you have....


----------



## JamesMac

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Errr....
> 
> Did you read Dave's review? (Better even to read this thread really, from start to finish). I don't think you have....


 +1 on this. I watched it twice before getting mine. The internal tour video is worth a good watch and explains most things a prosumer would need to know for general maintenance and tweaks


----------



## robti

hi i was going to post this in the technical section but as i have a Mara X thought to post it here, what are we using to clean the internals, pulycaffe or something else, i know we got small freebies flung in but doesn't me they are the best ?

Thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

robti said:


> hi i was going to post this in the technical section but as i have a Mara X thought to post it here, what are we using to clean the internals, pulycaffe or something else, i know we got small freebies flung in but doesn't me they are the best ?
> Thanks


What do you mean by cleaning the internals?

You descale with citric acid. You clean the portafilter, basket, shower screen (soaking every month or so, depends on usage) and backflush using pullycafe.


----------



## DavecUK

robti said:


> hi i was going to post this in the technical section but as i have a Mara X thought to post it here, what are we using to clean the internals, pulycaffe or something else, i know we got small freebies flung in but doesn't me they are the best ?
> 
> Thanks


 I use Pulycafe, I think it's "probably" one of the best.

I should buy shares in Pulycafe....


----------



## robti

MediumRoastSteam said:


> What do you mean by cleaning the internals?
> 
> You descale with citric acid. You clean the portafilter, basket, shower screen (soaking every month or so, depends on usage) and backflush using pullycafe.


 sorry yes i mean clean not descale

Thanks


----------



## robti

DavecUK said:


> I use Pulycafe, I think it's "probably" one of the best.
> 
> I should buy shares in Pulycafe....


 Thanks so off to find the best place to buy before you put the price up after buying your shares (although still got around an inch in the bottom of my tub)


----------



## DavecUK

robti said:


> Thanks so off to find the best place to buy before you put the price up after buying your shares (although still got around an inch in the bottom of my tub)


 Just buy a big 900g tub from ebay or amazon it will last you ages. Under a tenner Inc delivery from amazon.


----------



## robti

DavecUK said:


> Just buy a big 900g tub from ebay or amazon it will last you ages. Under a tenner Inc delivery from amazon.


 thanks that's the size i have atm with an inch in the bottom and seen that price already, although there is a seller on the bay listing it as 2x for around a £10 so think its a error so went with the amazon one

Thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

robti said:


> thanks that's the size i have atm with an inch in the bottom and seen that price already, although there is a seller on the bay listing it as 2x for around a £10 so think its a error so went with the amazon one
> 
> Thanks


I have a big tube. It's now half empty... I had it since 2012 or thereabouts....

So yeah, it will last you a very long time...


----------



## robti

Okay just noticed the hidden discharge pipe going into the drip tray, so I get a constant trickle while pulling a shot can anyone explain please ?

Thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

robti said:


> Okay just noticed the hidden discharge pipe going into the drip tray, so I get a constant trickle while pulling a shot can anyone explain please ? Thanks


I'll quote my own post, 737:



MediumRoastSteam said:


> Have a long read, from post #230 onwards.


 Summary:

The OPV discharges into the drip tray, and not back to the tank like some other machines.

Reference: "The Water Tank" section in https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/lelit-marax-review-in-progress


----------



## robti

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I'll quote my own post, 737:
> 
> Summary:
> 
> The OPV discharges into the drip tray, and not back to the tank like some other machines.
> 
> Reference: "The Water Tank" section in https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/lelit-marax-review-in-progress


 Vacuum breaker and expansion valve discharge into it, that I know but looking for simple English please ?

Thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

robti said:


> Vacuum breaker and expansion valve discharge into it, that I know but looking for simple English please ?
> 
> Thanks


I'll try...

The vaccum breaker seals the boiler when it's up to them. It's a very simple mechanism. What you see is the initial vapour/drips when the machine has just heated up (5-8) minutes after turned on. It's nothing to sorry about there, and a very standard design.

The expansion valve regulates the pressure of the circuit. The pump will constantly pump at a certain flow rate, and , when the circuit is under pressure, excess water will divert through the expansion valve to maintain the maximum pressure set. The simples analogy I have in my mind right now is when you water the garden with a hose, and adjust the sprinkler. If you had a T junction in your hose, where the T had the continuation of the hose and a pressure gauge, adjusting the flow of the sprinkler would control the pressure you read in the gage. In crude terms, the water going through the sprinkler is what will go through your expansion valve. If you had a Y connector instead, the other outlet could be the analogy to your coffee group, and you could regulate the pressure there with the coarseness of the grinds in the basket of coffee, if you get my idea. This is how I think it works, at least in my mind. Please anyone correct me if I'm wrong!


----------



## Rob1

Seems a bit unnecessary and complex.....the expansion valve regulates pressure at the group with a spring that holds a plunger in place. The tension of the spring can be altered with a screw pushing it down. In an espresso machine you'll want to set it so that at 9-10 bars the water in the circuit pushes past the plunger where it is diverted out of the brew circuit to the drip tray or back to the water tank.


----------



## robti

Can I ask for users using the filter in the water tank how do you fill, atm I just top up every morning but wondered how to keep track of usage for renewing the filter ?

Thanks


----------



## Boxerman33

just briefly going back to the Smart Plugs, i find it a really convenient way of using the machine even without the timer function. i hadn't disabled the power saving mode, so got a bit frustrated with it as when setting to walk the dog at 6am, i'd turn the machine on, only to find that when i got back after 30 mins it's warmed up and then gone back into hibernation as it hadn't been used. Now i get 15 mins into my walk and then just turn the machine on via the smartplug app so it's ready to go as soon as i get in. Even do the same when working from my home office, all of 50ft away, get 3/4 of the way down my coffee and just switch it back on from the app so it's ready and warm just in time for my next one! Yes it's lazy, but really convenient 😄


----------



## 2953

robti said:


> Can I ask for users using the filter in the water tank how do you fill, atm I just top up every morning but wondered how to keep track of usage for renewing the filter ?
> 
> Thanks


 There's numbered notched on the handles of the tank. Think you move them one a time every time you completely fill the tank until you get to the end. It's in the instructions somewhere.


----------



## robti

petebetros said:


> There's numbered notched on the handles of the tank. Think you move them one a time every time you completely fill the tank until you get to the end. It's in the instructions somewhere.


 Thanks I get the numbers bit, it was the fill up bit so you just use it till the light comes on that it's empty, then fill ?

Thanks


----------



## PD2020

I was just watching a video from 1st Line Equipment introducing Marax and Jim pointed out you shouldn't use RO water in Marax (please see the quote below). It appears to me lots of people in this forum do use it though and they're happy with it.

Could you please help me to understand this (what to a newbie appears like an) apparent contradiction? Cheers.



> The machine is refilling. That's because I shook it a little bit. There's a probe inside the top of the boiler. The water level comes up. It shuts off the pump and closes the refill valve. If you shake the machine a little bit the water moves so then it has to fill a little more. *So that's why you can't use the still, you can't use the purified and you cannot use Reverse Osmosis water*. Because you need a little bit of mineral content in the water. That probe that comes in sends 5V of electricity. Once the water heads up to there it goes across the water and hits the boiler wall. That's how the machine knows how to refill the boiler. *So [use] good water, softener but not those 3 types.*


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

PD2020 said:


> I was just watching a video from 1st Line Equipment introducing Marax and Jim pointed out you shouldn't use RO water in Marax (please see the quote below). It appears to me lots of people in this forum do use it though and they're happy with it.
> 
> Could you please help me to understand this (what to a newbie appears like an) apparent contradiction? Cheers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The machine is refilling. That's because I shook it a little bit. There's a probe inside the top of the boiler. The water level comes up. It shuts off the pump and closes the refill valve. If you shake the machine a little bit the water moves so then it has to fill a little more. *So that's why you can't use the still, you can't use the purified and you cannot use Reverse Osmosis water*. Because you need a little bit of mineral content in the water. That probe that comes in sends 5V of electricity. Once the water heads up to there it goes across the water and hits the boiler wall. That's how the machine knows how to refill the boiler. *So [use] good water, softener but not those 3 types.*
Click to expand...

If are using distilled water or RO water, you need it to re-mineralise it so your coffee tastes good and the water doesn't corrode the boiler.

I think the guidelines is 0.08g of bicarbonate of sodium per litre of pure water.

The aim here is to create water which tastes good and is boiler friendly so you want to avoid de-scaling the machine.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

I have another question to those who got their machines and are using it.

*How long does the machine take to heat up from cold to being able to pull a shot? *

Unfortunately due to where I'm planning my machine to be, I'll need to plug the machine on and off every day through an extension lead, so won't have the luxury to have that on a plug on a timer.

Thanks!


----------



## Rob1

PD2020 said:


> I was just watching a video from 1st Line Equipment introducing Marax and Jim pointed out you shouldn't use RO water in Marax (please see the quote below).


 It's nonsense. RO water won't be completely pure anyway. Pure water is not a good conductor but it is conductive. I use distilled water in my service boiler and have no problems with the probe.

That purified water should be remineralised for taste, if nothing else just by bringing up alkalinity to whatever is appropriate for the coffee you drink. SCAA target is 40mg/l but there's no reason you can't go higher and mute acids a little more.


----------



## Rob1

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I have another question to those who got their machines and are using it.
> 
> *How long does the machine take to heat up from cold to being able to pull a shot? *
> 
> Unfortunately due to where I'm planning my machine to be, I'll need to plug the machine on and off every day through an extension lead, so won't have the luxury to have that on a plug on a timer.
> 
> Thanks!


 Why wouldn't you be able to use a timer with an extension lead?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@Rob1 - It's not about the extension lead. It's the fact I can't leave the machine plugged in overnight.


----------



## Bicky

I'm sure Lelit claim it's 24 minutes to warm up? I haven't timed it to see when the light stops flashing, but I always give it 30 minutes at least. Not a problem for now for me, when I'm basically in the house all day anyway, but I can see me getting a smart plug in the future.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Bicky said:


> I'm sure Lelit claim it's 24 minutes to warm up? I haven't timed it to see when the light stops flashing, but I always give it 30 minutes at least. Not a problem for now for me, when I'm basically in the house all day anyway, but I can see me getting a smart plug in the future.


Yeah - I'm aware of the claims.... I was after the facts...

I had an E61 Dual Boiler before, and yeah, 40-45 mins at least. I had a Rocket E61 HX before, and it was overheating if past 26 min....

I know the MaraX heats up faster than others, so was interested in knowing peoples experiences. But also realise there most of us just leave the machine On or on a timed switch and forget about it.


----------



## Boxerman33

it's generally 20-24 mins from cold, and around 12-15 mins from power saving mode


----------



## Rhadu

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I have another question to those who got their machines and are using it.
> 
> *How long does the machine take to heat up from cold to being able to pull a shot? *
> 
> Unfortunately due to where I'm planning my machine to be, I'll need to plug the machine on and off every day through an extension lead, so won't have the luxury to have that on a plug on a timer.
> 
> Thanks!


 The excerpt below is taken from a Romanian forum which i follow.

"Another phenomenon that I noticed is that the time of 22-24 minutes for heating the device is viable only under certain conditions: if you extract the shot exactly when the erik shows you between 93-94 degrees, the shot is good; if you miss the 24 minutes by 2-3 minutes, the extraction temp is too high step 0 temp . thus, I prefer to wait 35-40 minutes from when I turn on the device, because I noticed that the temp in erik becomes very very stable, even after 2-3 consecutive shots, and the result in taste is superior."

So the fastest is *exactly* between 22-24 min, safest above 40 min


----------



## Boxerman33

assuming you've disabled the power saving mode!!



Rhadu said:


> The excerpt below is taken from a Romanian forum which i follow.
> 
> "Another phenomenon that I noticed is that the time of 22-24 minutes for heating the device is viable only under certain conditions: if you extract the shot exactly when the erik shows you between 93-94 degrees, the shot is good; if you miss the 24 minutes by 2-3 minutes, the extraction temp is too high step 0 temp . thus, I prefer to wait 35-40 minutes from when I turn on the device, because I noticed that the temp in erik becomes very very stable, even after 2-3 consecutive shots, and the result in taste is superior."
> 
> So the fastest is *exactly* between 22-24 min, safest above 40 min


----------



## Stanic

I've ordered this light to sit next to the machine and the grinder


----------



## paul87

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If are using distilled water or RO water, you need it to re-mineralise it so your coffee tastes good and the water doesn't corrode the boiler.
> 
> I think the guidelines is 0.08g of bicarbonate of sodium per litre of pure water.
> 
> The aim here is to create water which tastes good and is boiler friendly so you want to avoid de-scaling the machine.


 I've just ordered an X - upgrading from a classic.

I've been using Ashbeck / Buxton the whole time - Should I use the intank filter even with the bottled mineral water? or is it safe to remove?

My tap water is hard so i've never used it in my machine :-



Calcium 89 mg/l Ca




Magnesium 9.1mg /l Mg




Fluoride 0.12 mg/l




Total Hardness 260 mg/l CaCO3


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

paul87 said:


> I've just ordered an X - upgrading from a classic.
> 
> I've been using Ashbeck / Buxton the whole time - Should I use the intank filter even with the bottled mineral water? or is it safe to remove?
> 
> My tap water is hard so i've never used it in my machine :-
> 
> 
> Calcium 89 mg/l Ca
> 
> Magnesium 9.1mg /l Mg
> 
> Fluoride 0.12 mg/l
> 
> Total Hardness 260 mg/l CaCO3


Buxton? That's not boiler friendly water, not soft at all.

Apparently Ashbeck is not that great, as it is too soft, apparently. I don't understand the full picture why not but here are threads in here saying that Ashbeck can actually corrode your boiler, particularly the service boiler if never cycled.

Waitrose essentials Lockhills is better apparently. I have a La Pavoni at the moment (seriously considering the MaraX) but, if you read this thread, the machine wastes some water - the e61 group is not very water conscious, addition you have the OPV dumping water on the drip tray (as opposed to going back into he tank). Someone mentioned that the machine filled up the drip tray - 500ml - after 6 coffees.

So.... if it was me.... I'd seriously consider an Osmio Zero Water to pair with this machine. I myself am looking into water distillers, but it might not be as practical as the Osmio. Sadly for me, I don't have the space for the Osmio.


----------



## paul87

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Buxton? That's not boiler friendly water, not soft at all.
> 
> Apparently Ashbeck is not that great, as it is too soft, apparently. I don't understand the full picture why not but here are threads in here saying that Ashbeck can actually corrode your boiler, particularly the service boiler if never cycled.
> 
> Waitrose essentials Lockhills is better apparently. I have a La Pavoni at the moment (seriously considering the MaraX) but, if you read this thread, the machine wastes some water - the e61 group is not very water conscious, addition you have the OPV dumping water on the drip tray (as opposed to going back into he tank). Someone mentioned that the machine filled up the drip tray - 500ml - after 6 coffees.
> 
> So.... if it was me.... I'd seriously consider an Osmio Zero Water to pair with this machine. I myself am looking into water distillers, but it might not be as practical as the Osmio. Sadly for me, I don't have the space for the Osmio.


 Ah, I didnt mean Buxton - Volvic is what I meant!

Hmm - the budget / kitchen space doesnt really allow for a water filter right now.

So, is the general consensus stick to any soft mineral water brand *and *use the intank filter ? or remove the intank filter?

Or due to the water wastage on the Mara-X - perhaps a zerowater jug filled from the tap would be an acceptable solution?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

paul87 said:


> Ah, I didnt mean Buxton - Volvic is what I meant!
> 
> Hmm - the budget / kitchen space doesnt really allow for a water filter right now.
> 
> So, is the general consensus stick to any soft mineral water brand *and *use the intank filter ? or remove the intank filter?
> 
> Or due to the water wastage on the Mara-X - perhaps a zerowater jug filled from the tap would be an acceptable solution?


You'd be changing those zero water cartridges quite frequently....


----------



## jaffro

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You'd be changing those zero water cartridges quite frequently....


 I'm trying it out... My water is pretty hard.

I generally just use it for two filters, one espresso and a flat white a day, so maybe a litre a day. And I mix zero to tap water 6:1 so that boosts volume a bit.

I think each filter will last me about 2 months at that rate, but I'll report back... Buying 8 filters in one go with their £5 discount made them £10.62 a filter. I'll see how long they last and compare costs with other options.

I also don't have any room for an osmio!


----------



## cengland117

paul87 said:


> Ah, I didnt mean Buxton - Volvic is what I meant!
> 
> Hmm - the budget / kitchen space doesnt really allow for a water filter right now.
> 
> So, is the general consensus stick to any soft mineral water brand *and *use the intank filter ? or remove the intank filter?
> 
> Or due to the water wastage on the Mara-X - perhaps a zerowater jug filled from the tap would be an acceptable solution?


 I'm currently running volvic through my Mara X without the inbuilt filter and haven't experienced any issues at all. Results are really good. I don't think for a second I'd be able to identify any advantages/disadvantages of keeping the built in filter as well so I just leave it out and put the money saved on filters into the volvic.

And is respect to the excess water that flows into the drip tray, it's a non issue. If you operate the machine on a walk up and pull basis, I guarantee you won't lose sleep over the waste water. I pull maybe 3 or 4 espressos a day and need to empty the tray every 4 days-ish.


----------



## paul87

cengland117 said:


> I'm currently running volvic through my Mara X without the inbuilt filter and haven't experienced any issues at all. Results are really good. I don't think for a second I'd be able to identify any advantages/disadvantages of keeping the built in filter as well so I just leave it out and put the money saved on filters into the volvic.
> 
> And is respect to the excess water that flows into the drip tray, it's a non issue. If you operate the machine on a walk up and pull basis, I guarantee you won't lose sleep over the waste water. I pull maybe 3 or 4 espressos a day and need to empty the tray every 4 days-ish.


 Thanks - that's helpful and good to know.

Will just stock up on some volvic then and remove the intank filter as a starting point.


----------



## Boxerman33

eeek, i appear to have bought myself a Ceado E92 modified for single dose, be interesting to see how this compares with the SGP through the MaraX


----------



## Stanic

Boxerman33 said:


> eeek, i appear to have bought myself a Ceado E92 modified for single dose, be interesting to see how this compares with the SGP through the MaraX


 Congrats!


----------



## DavecUK

Boxerman33 said:


> eeek, i appear to have bought myself a Ceado E92 modified for single dose, be interesting to see how this compares with the SGP through the MaraX


 I have an E92, I think you will find it much better than the SGP


----------



## DavecUK

robti said:


> thanks that's the size i have atm with an inch in the bottom and seen that price already, although there is a seller on the bay listing it as 2x for around a £10 so think its a error so went with the amazon one
> 
> Thanks


 I found that seller on Ebay and like you thought it was a mistake, thought I'd order it for £9.90 delivered and see what comes. I don't actually need any Pulycaf and 2 x 900g containers of it arrived today!

So it worked, link for any others who need 2 tubs of PC for £9.90

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-Puly-Caff-Scale-Inhibitor-Coffee-Machine-Cleaner-900g/373039827933?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## robti

Hi all just to make sure I'm going down the right road, what's your cleaning routine for this machine ?

Thanks


----------



## Stanic

robti said:


> Hi all just to make sure I'm going down the right road, what's your cleaning routine for this machine ?
> 
> Thanks


 After each shot:

flush the group (let water through the group for 2-3 seconds), clean with Espazzola, flush again

End of day:

as above plus water backflush once or twice

Once a week :

as above plus remove the shower screen and clean its backside and the group with a brush or sponge...

Once a month or depending on use:

Backflush and brushing under the shower screen with chemicals, re-lube the cam

Once a year:

Descale


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Personally, I'd try to leave descaling out of the maintenance routine.

The best thing you can ever do is to make sure the water you use does not scale.


----------



## robti

Stanic said:


> After each shot:
> 
> flush the group (let water through the group for 2-3 seconds), clean with Espazzola, flush again
> 
> End of day:
> 
> as above plus water backflush once or twice
> 
> Once a week :
> 
> as above plus remove the shower screen and clean its backside and the group with a brush or sponge...
> 
> Once a month or depending on use:
> 
> Backflush and brushing under the shower screen with chemicals, re-lube the cam
> 
> Once a year:
> 
> Descale


 Thanks only thing I am not doing in your list is I use a brush instead of the Espazzola to clean and didn't even think about lube the cam, any hints on lubing the cam before I search and do it wrong ?

Thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

robti said:


> Thanks only thing I am not doing in your list is I use a brush instead of the Espazzola to clean and didn't even think about lube the cam, any hints on lubing the cam before I search and do it wrong ?
> Thanks


http://coffeetimex.wikidot.com/e61-group-servicing

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/e61-lubrication


----------



## efrain-PR

robti said:


> Thanks only thing I am not doing in your list is I use a brush instead of the Espazzola to clean and didn't even think about lube the cam, any hints on lubing the cam before I search and do it wrong ?
> 
> Thanks


 Here is a video from Lelit servicing a Mara X


----------



## Stanic

I've received the single-hole steam tip today

the hole is obviously bigger, no gasket for the teflon tube but it is pretty snug - should I source a tiny gasket or just leave it?

I was slightly worried how it'll look on the machine but I am happy

And, oh, this has turned it into a steam monster! At 1,5 bar it takes roughly half the time with 350 ml jug compared to the two-hole tip and is very energetic, almost like with a pro machine 

for wife, I think I'll put the original tip back on, it is much more forgiving, basically I relax while frothing with it


----------



## Badgerman

Stanic said:


> I've received the single-hole steam tip today
> the hole is obviously bigger, no gasket for the teflon tube but it is pretty snug - should I source a tiny gasket or just leave it?
> I was slightly worried how it'll look on the machine but I am happy
> And, oh, this has turned it into a steam monster! At 1,5 bar it takes roughly half the time with 350 ml jug compared to the two-hole tip and is very energetic, almost like with a pro machine
> for wife, I think I'll put the original tip back on, it is much more forgiving, basically I relax while frothing with it
> <img alt="K52S9903.thumb.jpg.10080fe4b29deef68506ff49e334ca2f.jpg" data-fileid="40723" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2020_06/K52S9903.thumb.jpg.10080fe4b29deef68506ff49e334ca2f.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="K52S9904.thumb.jpg.7c1e7676747757dcdacbd3c9287f67fe.jpg" data-fileid="40724" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2020_06/K52S9904.thumb.jpg.7c1e7676747757dcdacbd3c9287f67fe.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="K52S9906.thumb.jpg.9aeae0f26d27e97cca5a32394b2b44e6.jpg" data-fileid="40725" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2020_06/K52S9906.thumb.jpg.9aeae0f26d27e97cca5a32394b2b44e6.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


Nice. Where's that tip from?

Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## Stanic

Badgerman said:


> Nice. Where's that tip from?
> 
> Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


 here

as advised by @hubcap


----------



## Badgerman

Stanic said:


> here
> as advised by @hubcap


What's it like for initial stretching?

Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## Stanic

Badgerman said:


> What's it like for initial stretching?
> 
> Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


 Very wild and needs a good steady hand


----------



## JamesMac

robti said:


> Hi all just to make sure I'm going down the right road, what's your cleaning routine for this machine ?
> 
> Thanks


 I bqckflush with water , scrub the PF and baskets with soap and a scrubby and poke the PF hole and spouts with a bottle brush. Brush the shower screen and Wash out the drip tray. Every second or third day I drop the shower screen and scrubby that too.

All the above I took from a thread on here called cleanliness is next to godliness and it works for me. The shower screen does get quite dirty on the group head side, I'd hate to see one a month or two old.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

JamesMac said:


> I bqckflush with water , scrub the PF and baskets with soap and a scrubby and poke the PF hole and spouts with a bottle brush. Brush the shower screen and Wash out the drip tray. Every second or third day I drop the shower screen and scrubby that too.
> All the above I took from a thread on here called cleanliness is next to godliness and it works for me. The shower screen does get quite dirty on the group head side, I'd hate to see one a month or two old.


Invest in an IMS shower screen. They get less dirty.  - but keep the routine nonetheless.


----------



## robti

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Invest in an IMS shower screen. They get less dirty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - but keep the routine nonetheless.


 Patiently waiting for some stock of a nano screen for mine


----------



## robti

> 3 hours ago, efrain-PR said:
> 
> Here is a video from Lelit servicing a Mara X


 Do we all do this strip down on our machines and lube the cams every month ?


----------



## Stanic

robti said:


> Do we all do this strip down on our machines and lube the cams every month ?


 it comes down to how often you clean with chemicals, also some people only re-lube when the cam starts squeaking but you're already getting some wear then


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

robti said:


> Do we all do this strip down on our machines and lube the cams every month ?


You pretty much already asked a similar question on the 19th of May, post 619 (or thereabouts).

Answer is yes, depending on usage. For 2 coffees s day, I used to chemically backflush every 6 weeks or thereabouts.

The reason you need to do this is that the chemicals will strip away any grease on the cam lever, therefore the pins will rub against them cam and will prematurely wear off.

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/e61-lubrication


----------



## Stanic

Badgerman said:


> What's it like for initial stretching?
> 
> Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


 I'm getting the hang of it now, pulling shot, frothing milk and regulating the flow towards the end of the shot simultaneously  also it feels like it is easier to get the "microfoam" froth


----------



## JamesMac

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Invest in an IMS shower screen. They get less dirty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - but keep the routine nonetheless.


 thanks. ill add that to the payday list along with a bottomless PF and some more beans to try. Going to try coffee compass brighten lanes for espresso, apparently its quiet forgiving for thos of us new to this


----------



## Boxerman33

Stanic said:


> I've received the single-hole steam tip today
> 
> the hole is obviously bigger, no gasket for the teflon tube but it is pretty snug - should I source a tiny gasket or just leave it?
> 
> I was slightly worried how it'll look on the machine but I am happy
> 
> And, oh, this has turned it into a steam monster! At 1,5 bar it takes roughly half the time with 350 ml jug compared to the two-hole tip and is very energetic, almost like with a pro machine
> 
> for wife, I think I'll put the original tip back on, it is much more forgiving, basically I relax while frothing with it
> 
> View attachment 40723
> 
> 
> View attachment 40724
> 
> 
> View attachment 40725


 Oh great another purchase coming on🙈🤣


----------



## JamesMac

Boxerman33 said:


> Oh great another purchase coming on🙈🤣


 That looks smart. I find mine a bit slow but i'd blast the milk clean out the jug while stretching it if it was more powerful I think haha


----------



## Boxerman33

This lockdown is getting expensive, so far AV Forums and Coffee Forums up to £5k+, desperately staying off bike and car forums 🙈


----------



## Stanic

JamesMac said:


> That looks smart. I find mine a bit slow but i'd blast the milk clean out the jug while stretching it if it was more powerful I think haha


 if I don't "wake up" the boiler before brewing, the 350 ml jug is easily manageable with the pressure at 0.6 - 0.7 bar

with a 500 ml jug and more milk, the 1.5 bar steam is just lovely and fast


----------



## JamesMac

Stanic said:


> if I don't "wake up" the boiler before brewing, the 350 ml jug is easily manageable with the pressure at 0.6 - 0.7 bar
> 
> with a 500 ml jug and more milk, the 1.5 bar steam is just lovely and fast


 Are you pulling the lever and leaving it 30 seconds or so to boost the steam before use as per the manual or have you got a different method?


----------



## Stanic

JamesMac said:


> Are you pulling the lever and leaving it 30 seconds or so to boost the steam before use as per the manual or have you got a different method?


 I purge the steam wand, it does the same thing


----------



## Yas90

Right, I've caught up finally over the last few pages.

Conclusion..... I better lube up


----------



## robti

Boxerman33 said:


> This lockdown is getting expensive, so far AV Forums and Coffee Forums up to £5k+, desperately staying off bike and car forums 🙈


 Thought I had replied earlier, so same forums but not as much spent, a new OLED and the Mara For me


----------



## Rhadu

@Stanic i just got a MaraX as well and i saw in one of your earlier pics that you also use (used) an Aergrind.

I'm getting decent flow result (16g in, 32-34g out in 32-38 seconds) using the same grinder set at 1:7, 1:8 turns, but the taste it very bitter. I don't have yet a bottomless PF (on it's way) so can't know for sure if the preparation of the puck is ok or i have channelling (i also do some WDT with some toothpicks in a wine cork)

Q1 Should i get a Kribli or a Motta leveler, which is better?

Q2 Is the stock tamper good enough?

As beans i'm switching between a Brazil and a Columbia, both medium roasted on the 3rd of June.

Q3 Maybe the beans are to fresh?

I tried at temp 0 and 1, and i think i got better results with the temp set at 1

I will receive a Niche later this month since i'm scheduled for June delivery but would like to have better results with the Aergrind till then. Q4 Will the Niche improve the extraction or just my workflow?

Q5 Any tips for my current setup?

Q6 should i get a VST basket? If so what size, 18, 20, 22?


----------



## Stanic

@Rhadu

1. I'm using the Lelit one, 58.55mm

2. Don't know, I'm using a different one, 58.55mm with sharp edge, didn't even hold the Lelit one in hand tbh 

3. I would think so, some beans can take up to 10 days to rest

4. As for extraction I don't know since I don't have a refractometer, as for workflow - depends on you, let's say yes 😉

5. Not really. Maybe for extraction, try stopping the shot sooner, like at 25 grams and see how it tastes

6. Anything that suits you. I've got the 15g and 18g VST baskets, so far happy with them


----------



## Northern_Monkey

@Stanic - Also got one of those steam tips a few months back from BB but never got round to posting. Haven't had any issues with not having the extra oring plus it won't have a recess for it to fit. It has massively improved my steaming consistency in terms of microfoam though so worth the £6 odd quid!


----------



## JamesMac

Northern_Monkey said:


> @Stanic - Also got one of those steam tips a few months back from BB but never got round to posting. Haven't had any issues with not having the extra oring plus it won't have a recess for it to fit. It has massively improved my steaming consistency in terms of microfoam though so worth the £6 odd quid!


 Im tempted to switch to. Im getting ok microfoam but I find im spending most of the time surfing the top to get the microfoam and then just as im about to sink it to get everything moving and combined I hit 65 degrees. Feel like I need the microfoam a little faster


----------



## Northern_Monkey

@JamesMac - it helped make it more predictable and slow it down for me, I'm not that great at latte art to be honest as I don't drink that many to practice and my other half prefers cold milk.

Definitely falls into the worth a punt category in terms of cost though, when BB had them it was less than a bag of decent beans.


----------



## Badgerman

robti said:


> Thought I had replied earlier, so same forums but not as much spent, a new OLED and the Mara For me


Ha. Just ordered a new OLED too! Panny 65 GX950 thanks to AVF.

Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## Bicky

JamesMac said:


> Im tempted to switch to. Im getting ok microfoam but I find im spending most of the time surfing the top to get the microfoam and then just as im about to sink it to get everything moving and combined I hit 65 degrees. Feel like I need the microfoam a little faster


 I'm the opposite of this, with the standard tip I stretch the milk for 5, maybe 10 seconds tops, then raise the pitcher and just let it spin. I'm using a thermometer and raising the pitcher before it even hits 20 degrees. I'll always wait until the steam pressure is at least 1 bar.

I'm no expert, but doing this allows me to consistently get a basic heart.


----------



## jaffro

Bicky said:


> I'm the opposite of this, with the standard tip I stretch the milk for 5, maybe 10 seconds tops, then raise the pitcher and just let it spin. I'm using a thermometer and raising the pitcher before it even hits 20 degrees. I'll always wait until the steam pressure is at least 1 bar.
> 
> I'm no expert, but doing this allows me to consistently get a basic heart.


 Yeah I'm with you on this @Bicky. Don't know if it's because I've come from a gaggia classic with rapidly fluctuating steam pressure, but I'm finding the steaming on the MaraX with the standard tip an absolute breeze.

Shame my latte art is a bit hit and miss!


----------



## JamesMac

Bicky said:


> I'm the opposite of this, with the standard tip I stretch the milk for 5, maybe 10 seconds tops, then raise the pitcher and just let it spin. I'm using a thermometer and raising the pitcher before it even hits 20 degrees. I'll always wait until the steam pressure is at least 1 bar.
> 
> I'm no expert, but doing this allows me to consistently get a basic heart.


 Interesting. Its possivle because I'm totally new to this that I'm maybe trying to stretch it to much. I'm waiting for it to rise about half an inch before dropping it deeper. Around 50 percent of the time ill get the correct consistency milk at the bottom and produce a basic heart


----------



## robti

Badgerman said:


> Ha. Just ordered a new OLED too! Panny 65 GX950 thanks to AVF.
> 
> Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


 Went for the 55"GZ950 and told my self that was it no maraX then it just sort of ordered itself 😂


----------



## robti

DavecUK said:


> I found that seller on Ebay and like you thought it was a mistake, thought I'd order it for £9.90 delivered and see what comes. I don't actually need any Pulycaf and 2 x 900g containers of it arrived today!
> 
> So it worked, link for any others who need 2 tubs of PC for £9.90
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-Puly-Caff-Scale-Inhibitor-Coffee-Machine-Cleaner-900g/373039827933?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


 And just got my delivery with 2 tubs in it, can't complain at £5 a tub


----------



## Groke

robti said:


> And just got my delivery with 2 tubs in it, can't complain at £5 a tub


 Me too! Thanks for the heads up @DavecUK


----------



## Aamz23

What dosing funnel will i need for the Niche. Just waiting for delivery and trying to prepare in advance. Want to doze directly into the portafilter from the Niche


----------



## Joe shorrock

Aamz23 said:


> What dosing funnel will i need for the Niche. Just waiting for delivery and trying to prepare in advance. Want to doze directly into the portafilter from the Niche


 A deep funnel is best I reckon


----------



## Stanic

Aamz23 said:


> What dosing funnel will i need for the Niche. Just waiting for delivery and trying to prepare in advance. Want to doze directly into the portafilter from the Niche


 For example the Orphan Espresso Ipanema 58mm

There are many other options as well


----------



## Aamz23

Any links to any to buy?


----------



## Rob1

There's a thread on the forum already, I linked to a bunch in there. Asso do a couple. The one I got from amazon just about fits comfortably under the Niche spout if you remove the little cup stand. Just search dosing funnels in the search box at the top of the page. Or just wait for me to do it.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51317-recommendations-for-dosing-funnel-for-584mm-vst-basket/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=735053&embedComment=735053&embedDo=findComment#comment-735053


----------



## Aamz23

Thanks a lot


----------



## Boxerman33

i like the look of this Scarlet one as it sits on the portafilter not in it

Scarlet Funnel

Can anyone recommend a decent, but reasonably priced, levelling tool as i'm trying to remove as many variables from my coffee making as possible!


----------



## JamesMac

Boxerman33 said:


> i like the look of this Scarlet one as it sits on the portafilter not in it
> 
> Scarlet Funnel
> 
> Can anyone recommend a decent, but reasonably priced, levelling tool as i'm trying to remove as many variables from my coffee making as possible!


 Ohh that does look nice and well made. Is quite Pricey though.


----------



## Rob1

Boxerman33 said:


> i like the look of this Scarlet one as it sits on the portafilter not in it
> 
> Scarlet Funnel
> 
> Can anyone recommend a decent, but reasonably priced, levelling tool as i'm trying to remove as many variables from my coffee making as possible!


 All of the ones I linked to sit on the portafilter. I actually bought this one when it was £12, you can probably get them from Ebay for that much or less but will have to wait for it to be delivered from China.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07R8ZRTGS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## efrain-PR

Rob1 said:


> All of the ones I linked to sit on the portafilter. I actually bought this one when it was £12, you can probably get them from Ebay for that much or less but will have to wait for it to be delivered from China.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07R8ZRTGS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


 I also have this one got it from Amazon USA. Great tool.


----------



## robti

Getting a flashing temp led maybe 10-15 minutes after pulling first shot, tried running some water through group head but same, any help, read the instructions but can't find an answer bar that the heating element is keeping the temp up, just that I have never seen it before ?

Thanks


----------



## DavecUK

robti said:


> Getting a flashing temp led maybe 10-15 minutes after pulling first shot, tried running some water through group head but same, any help, read the instructions but can't find an answer bar that the heating element is keeping the temp up, just that I have never seen it before ?
> 
> Thanks


 Have you got it set to auto standby?


----------



## robti

DavecUK said:


> Have you got it set to auto standby?


 Shouldn't be I had it off, but will double check I have not switched it back on, off to read your instructions again


----------



## robti

DavecUK said:


> Have you got it set to auto standby?


 And once again you are right, been using it for a while now so don't know how I managed to switch it on again.

Thanks


----------



## robti

Who has removed the warning sticker on the group head ?


----------



## Bicky

robti said:


> Who has removed the warning sticker on the group head ?


 Done it before I pulled my first shot 😂


----------



## jaffro

Bicky said:


> Done it before I pulled my first shot 😂


 Yeah that thing came straight off haha


----------



## 2953

But of work getting the glue off though.

So my water tanks broken  It slipped as I was filling it up and the two feet came straight off leaving holes.

£110 for a replacement 🤐 Crazy money for a plastic container.


----------



## Zoltan

robti said:


> Who has removed the warning sticker on the group head ?


 I did. And I always burn my hand since I've removed the sticker 😅


----------



## Groke

petebetros said:


> But of work getting the glue off though.
> 
> So my water tanks broken  It slipped as I was filling it up and the two feet came straight off leaving holes.
> 
> £110 for a replacement 🤐 Crazy money for a plastic container.


 Ouch - that does seem a lot for a tank! Did it fall from a height? Just wondering how fragile those feet are.


----------



## catpuccino

petebetros said:


> But of work getting the glue off though.
> 
> So my water tanks broken  It slipped as I was filling it up and the two feet came straight off leaving holes.
> 
> £110 for a replacement 🤐 Crazy money for a plastic container.


 How much. I'd be repairing the original one for that money.


----------



## 2953

Groke said:


> Ouch - that does seem a lot for a tank! Did it fall from a height? Just wondering how fragile those feet are.


 From the countertop so almost 3 feet. One left a clean circle shaped hole and whilst the other came off part of the base stayed so the hole is smaller.

The price quoted is discounted from list price apparently. Gutted.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

petebetros said:


> From the countertop so almost 3 feet. One left a clean circle shaped hole and whilst the other came off part of the base stayed so the hole is smaller.
> The price quoted is discounted from list price apparently. Gutted.


Which retailer did you source that from? £110 is just... obscene.


----------



## robti

Not the same but my handles have popped out as I lifted it back into the machine only one handle on one side But twice now, but I'm amazed how quick I can move at my age to catch it


----------



## Boxerman33

Am I on my own in taking a bottle or jug of water to fill the tank rather than removing the inbuilt one? Initially did it as it was under a cupboard,but i still find it easier than removing the tank now i've relocated it !


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Boxerman33 said:


> Am I on my own in taking a bottle or jug of water to fill the tank rather than removing the inbuilt one? Initially did it as it was under a cupboard,but i still find it easier than removing the tank now i've relocated it !


This is what I always did. The only only reason to remove the tank is to wash and clean it.


----------



## robti

I take the tank to the built in water dispenser on the fridge to fill it but now I think I won't remove it after hearing this story and do as you both are doing and top up with another container


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

robti said:


> I take the tank to the built in water dispenser on the fridge to fill it but now I think I won't remove it after hearing this story and do as you both are doing and top up with another container


Ps: I used to do it when I had my dual boiler machine. Now I still do it, but for a different reason, as the machine I have - La Pavoni - the water goes directly inside the boiler.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

petebetros said:


> From the countertop so almost 3 feet. One left a clean circle shaped hole and whilst the other came off part of the base stayed so the hole is smaller.
> 
> The price quoted is discounted from list price apparently. Gutted.


Just did some research and, the tank for the Lelit Anna - I know it's not the same, but gives us an idea, a 2.6L tank, costs EUR 23.

The only reason I can think it was £110 is maybe due to the fact they don't make that as spares yet? Still... £110... seems a lot.

https://www.lamacchinadelcaffe.com/images/Tanica-acqua-2,6-LT-Lelit-ANNA-ANITA-Cod.-1000199.jpg

https://www.lamacchinadelcaffe.com/accessori-lelit.html


----------



## robti

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Just did some research and, the tank for the Lelit Anna - I know it's not the same, but gives us an idea, a 2.6L tank, costs EUR 23.
> 
> The only reason I can think it was £110 is maybe due to the fact they don't make that as spares yet? Still... £110... seems a lot.
> 
> https://www.lamacchinadelcaffe.com/images/Tanica-acqua-2,6-LT-Lelit-ANNA-ANITA-Cod.-1000199.jpg
> 
> https://www.lamacchinadelcaffe.com/accessori-lelit.html


 That price seems a bit more realistic


----------



## 2953

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Just did some research and, the tank for the Lelit Anna - I know it's not the same, but gives us an idea, a 2.6L tank, costs EUR 23.
> 
> The only reason I can think it was £110 is maybe due to the fact they don't make that as spares yet? Still... £110... seems a lot.
> 
> https://www.lamacchinadelcaffe.com/images/Tanica-acqua-2,6-LT-Lelit-ANNA-ANITA-Cod.-1000199.jpg
> 
> https://www.lamacchinadelcaffe.com/accessori-lelit.html


 Thanks. I'd seen this too, even from the retailer here I'm using (Espresso Underground who have been very helpful) and the measurements are pretty much the same and it's a third the price but it's a different part number (Lelit say it's 1000160). After a few more emails turns out the price that was quoted was for full assembly and not just the tank so hopefully it will be less.

I normally top fill but took it out to give it a rinse, stuck it under the water dispenser turned around and heard a crack. Thought that can't be too bad as it's plastice and then I saw water coming out from both ends


----------



## cengland117

Can anyone shed any light on what just went wrong with my machine...

Turned it on and after about 5 mins in to warm up I hear an intense hissing and a lot of steam being expelled. The pressure gauge in the boiler had flipped all the way around to the 12 mark on the brew pressure gauge! I turned it off and the machine was really hot...

I fear an issue but would be grateful if anyone could point me in the right direction? I made a beautiful coffee earlier today with no issues. Between then and now I had removed the water tank, cleaned, refitted and refilled.


----------



## Bicky

I'll occasionally see the brew pressure gauge flip right round to 12 (or whatever the max is), I think this is it topping up the boiler? Was it only for a brief few seconds?

I'd say a bit of steam/hissing/spurting is normal for me during warm up, and I've seen the steam pressure gauge go above 2.5.


----------



## Border_all

cengland117 said:


> Can anyone shed any light on what just went wrong with my machine...
> 
> Turned it on and after about 5 mins in to warm up I hear an intense hissing and a lot of steam being expelled. The pressure gauge in the boiler had flipped all the way around to the 12 mark on the brew pressure gauge! I turned it off and the machine was really hot...
> 
> I fear an issue but would be grateful if anyone could point me in the right direction? I made a beautiful coffee earlier today with no issues. Between then and now I had removed the water tank, cleaned, refitted and refilled.


 Thinking about tank removal could you think of a way an airlock might have happened causing low boiler level.


----------



## cengland117

Bicky said:


> I'll occasionally see the brew pressure gauge flip right round to 12 (or whatever the max is), I think this is it topping up the boiler? Was it only for a brief few seconds?
> 
> I'd say a bit of steam/hissing/spurting is normal for me during warm up, and I've seen the steam pressure gauge go above 2.5.


 Yeah every now and again the pump kicks in to stop the group water loop from stalling.

I have just had another go and all seemed to be well but the boiler didn't need to get passed 1.5 due the excess heat still in the system from before.



Border_all said:


> Thinking about tank removal could you think of a way an airlock might have happened causing low boiler level.


 This could make sense. I took out the tank again and fitted it back in and everything seemed fine on my second attempt. It is a bit concerning because I didn't do anything out of the ordinary and I am not sure how to prevent it happening again. The machine looked like it was about to take off!


----------



## robti

cengland117 said:


> Yeah every now and again the pump kicks in to stop the group water loop from stalling.
> 
> I have just had another go and all seemed to be well but the boiler didn't need to get passed 1.5 due the excess heat still in the system from before.
> 
> This could make sense. I took out the tank again and fitted it back in and everything seemed fine on my second attempt. It is a bit concerning because I didn't do anything out of the ordinary and I am not sure how to prevent it happening again. The machine looked like it was about to take off!


 Well just had the same happen to me woke up boiler was cold and low water led, so filled up, opened lever to get some water through group head and left it for 20 mins to heat, went back and steam needle up full so not thinking I steamed my milk then tried to pour a shot, pump wouldn't ramp up and nothing, portafilter off and lever up again and only a lot of steam , so machine off for about 10 mins and tried again and okay now


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

cengland117 said:


> Can anyone shed any light on what just went wrong with my machine...
> Turned it on and after about 5 mins in to warm up I hear an intense hissing and a lot of steam being expelled. The pressure gauge in the boiler had flipped all the way around to the 12 mark on the brew pressure gauge! I turned it off and the machine was really hot...


Would you say the safety valve popped and a lot of steam coming from the top of the machine?


----------



## cengland117

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Would you say the safety valve popped and a lot of steam coming from the top of the machine?


 Yes, I think that is exactly what happened. For whatever reason, the boiler seemingly had no control over the pressure building inside. The cup warmer which is only ever warmish when in usual operation was untouchable...


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

cengland117 said:


> Can anyone shed any light on what just went wrong with my machine...
> 
> Turned it on and after about 5 mins in to warm up I hear an intense hissing and a lot of steam being expelled. The pressure gauge in the boiler had flipped all the way around to the 12 mark on the brew pressure gauge! I turned it off and the machine was really hot...
> 
> I fear an issue but would be grateful if anyone could point me in the right direction? I made a beautiful coffee earlier today with no issues. Between then and now I had removed the water tank, cleaned, refitted and refilled.





MediumRoastSteam said:


> Would you say the safety valve popped and a lot of steam coming from the top of the machine?





cengland117 said:


> Yes, I think that is exactly what happened. For whatever reason, the boiler seemingly had no control over the pressure building inside. The cup warmer which is only ever warmish when in usual operation was untouchable...


@robti, would you say the same happened to you?

@DavecUK May be able to shed some light here as he knows the machine very well.


----------



## robti

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @robti, would you say the same happened to you?
> 
> @DavecUK May be able to shed some light here as he knows the machine very well.


 Afraid not but then again I was in front of the machine so switched it off after trying a pour and the pressure needle went to maximum, then switched it off and left it to cool down or whatever it did. Just to say that I have woken up and went to the machine (and as it is on a smart plug) and had it off with low water before and never had this before


----------



## cengland117

I wonder if the issue was caused when I refilled the tank. The tank was completely empty and seated in the machine. I then poured bottled water in and I wonder if the force of the water hitting the bottom pushed air into the inlet or something. I don't use the filter and the machine pulls straight from the tank. I had no issues using the machine this morning but maybe something to pay attention to when refilling 🙂


----------



## Border_all

cengland117 said:


> I wonder if the issue was caused when I refilled the tank. The tank was completely empty and seated in the machine. I then poured bottled water in and I wonder if the force of the water hitting the bottom pushed air into the inlet or something. I don't use the filter and the machine pulls straight from the tank. I had no issues using the machine this morning but maybe something to pay attention to when refilling 🙂


 I imagine any air would be pushed through the pump and if you watch Dave's video you'll see the top of the boiler has a protrusion into the top that was mentioned should stop air locking

Guessing you have some kind of filter just thinking did any debris enter the tubing


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Border_all said:


> if you watch Dave's video you'll see the top of the boiler has a protrusion into the top that was mentioned should stop air locking


Are you referring to the anti-vac valve?


----------



## DavecUK

I'm reading the thread but so many mixed messages and vague musings, I can't think of a reason.

Air, if using the filter possibly but brew sensor at bottom of HX loop, so unlikely.

12bar on brew guage, how if expansion valve is set to 10 or even 10.5

Is the heater light flashing as it definitely overheats boiler for fast warmup.

I never had a problem like this with the prototype or the production version in months of use. I don't use the filters but I see at least one person with "problems" doesn't either.

People are not using the mythical middle "preinfusion" position on the E61 are they because MaraX wouldn't like that.


----------



## cengland117

The issue I experienced occurred after 5 -10 mins of switching the machine on from cold. The steam pressure usually gets up to an absolute maximum of about 3 bar during the heat up process. When I inspected the noise and steam coming from the machine the steam pressure needle had gone pass 3 and right round to the 12 on the pump reading. It suggested the pressure in the boiler went way about 3. The pump itself had not been engaged on the e61 as this was during the warm up process.


----------



## DavecUK

What's the pressure when you run the pump against a blind filter?


----------



## Border_all

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Are you referring to the anti-vac valve?


 I think perhaps i was confusing the ACS minima as after re watching the video can't find the clip i was looking for... thankfully Dave is here and my bet is on him 😁


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> What's the pressure when you run the pump against a blind filter?


Just to clarify,@cengland117 is saying that the service boiler pressure [not brew pressure) went way over 3 on the manometer. The needle turned approx. 225 degrees on the manometer, so pressure would be 3.75 bar, (if 90 degrees is equivalent to 1.5 bar), as it invaded" the "pump pressure area" and "parked" on 12, which popped the safety valve as lots of steam was coming out of the machine


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Just to clarify,@cengland117 is saying that the service boiler pressure [not brew pressure) went way over 3 on the manometer. The needle turned approx. 225 degrees on the manometer, so pressure would be 3.75 bar, (if 90 degrees is equivalent to 1.5 bar), as it invaded" the "pump pressure area" and "parked" on 12, which popped the safety valve as lots of steam was coming out of the machine


 Ah it wasn't clear, I should read things more carefully. It's probably the uncertainty princple at work. I am a bit uncertain as to what the problem is.


----------



## bbjwvr6

I had a similar experience once when adding water in the middle of the day (I use a smart switch, so I don't watch what the pressure gauge does in the AM). I added water and the boiler temp light started flashing and the steam pressure started to boost. The dial went all the way around to about 4-5 o'clock on the dial. I'm not sure if the safety valve popped, but it eventually went back down to normal after about 15 minutes or so.


----------



## cengland117

bbjwvr6 said:


> I had a similar experience once when adding water in the middle of the day (I use a smart switch, so I don't watch what the pressure gauge does in the AM). I added water and the boiler temp light started flashing and the steam pressure started to boost. The dial went all the way around to about 4-5 o'clock on the dial. I'm not sure if the safety valve popped, but it eventually went back down to normal after about 15 minutes or so.


 This sounds familiar - did you notice lots of steam being ejected when the dial was at 4/5? Did itself return back to normal after 15 mins or did you turn the machine off?


----------



## bbjwvr6

I didn't notice any steam and left it on and it returned to normal after fifteen minutes. I have pretty low hardness water from my city and am starting to wonder if perhaps that is why my machine sometimes is a flaky (for a while the steam didn't always boost automatically when pulling a shot, but haven't noticed that in a while). I've read that very low hardness water can affect the boiler water level sensor. I'm wondering if it could be related.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

cengland117 said:


> This sounds familiar - did you notice lots of steam being ejected when the dial was at 4/5? Did itself return back to normal after 15 mins or did you turn the machine off?


I suppose must be either part of the software to stabilise temperature or heat up fast, or it's an oversight in the programming.

The safety valve shouldn't pop. (It's a safety valve after all).

If you manage to reproduce it - it's always a good thing to reproduce things, so a fix can be develop - do film and post it here. You can then use the video and contact Bella Barista (or whoever you bought it from) who in turn should contact Lelit to solve the issue if this turns to be an issue after all. Who knows, it might be standard behaviour after all (but the safety valve should not pop).


----------



## DavecUK

The reason the steam pressure may not boost on rare ocassions is:

If you happen to pull a shot and for whatever reason the boiler tries to fill e.g. water contraction as you pull water through the HX, then the heating element will switch off until the autofill occurs. As that autofill is disabled during the shot for last shot protection, then the steam won't boost during the shot. It can happen, it's a rare combination of circumstances but normal behaviour.


----------



## cengland117

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I suppose must be either part of the software to stabilise temperature or heat up fast, or it's an oversight in the programming.
> 
> The safety valve shouldn't pop. (It's a safety valve after all).
> 
> If you manage to reproduce it - it's always a good thing to reproduce things, so a fix can be develop - do film and post it here. You can then use the video and contact Bella Barista (or whoever you bought it from) who in turn should contact Lelit to solve the issue if this turns to be an issue after all. Who knows, it might be standard behaviour after all (but the safety valve should not pop).


 Sounds like a plan. My gut feeling is that whatever happened, it was not part of usual procedure so I will keep an eye on it and post again if it replicates. Thanks for the help 👍


----------



## Bicky

I've noticed the steam boosting when topping the water up during the day as well, although always within the normal range. Anyway I've started topping it up as part of my 'final clean up of the day' procedure, that way I don't need to worry about it getting low the next day.


----------



## robti

Bicky said:


> I've noticed the steam boosting when topping the water up during the day as well, although always within the normal range. Anyway I've started topping it up as part of my 'final clean up of the day' procedure, that way I don't need to worry about it getting low the next day.


 Have to agree after this happening to me I top up now daily


----------



## JamesMac

robti said:


> Have to agree after this happening to me I top up now daily


 I'm the same with mine, clean it at night and backflush then top it up ready for the next day so that it never runs low


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

So a few people here now said that the service boiler pressure goes up significantly when the tank is topped up? Is this right? Why would that be? The boiler pressure increases and decreases based on two probes: one in the boiler and another one on the return pipe of the syphon loop. How can the machine somehow detect he tank is being topped up? I'm lost.


----------



## robti

only happened to me once and that was enough so now top up after every use (which is only 4-5 cups in the morning). so machine is on a smart plug for coming on at 5 am every morning and the time it happened i went through and machine was cold and low water level was showing so i filled the water tank up and pulled the lever up for a couple of seconds to purge water out the group head. so around 10-15 minutes later as i was getting everything ready to pour i noticed steam gauge was over 2.5 bar so blew some steam off and tried to flush the group head but only got a lot of steam out of this and still blowing off at the steam wand and noticed that the pump didn't ramp up as it usually did, so now panic stations set in as it was a new machine and i didn't know a lot about it, so switched it off to cool down. switched back on around 15 minutes later and all worked as normal. as i said i have topped up a lot (every 2 days atm ) since getting the machine and it hasn't happened before


----------



## PD2020

With Heat Exchanger machines, and MaraX specifically DaveC says in his review:



> Small HX tube always has fresher water compared to dual boiler machine with a large brew boiler


 I'm basically trying to get my get round how this works. If on a given day the machine has been on all day long but I haven't made any coffee, then would the HX water reach the boiler temperature and stay there? Would it be the same water circulating in the thermosyphon all day long or does MaraX introduce a bit of fresher tank water without any barista action every now and then, thus keeping the HX water fresher and below the boiler temperature? And finally, if you do a cooling flush, would that replace all the water in the thermosyphon or just some minor part of it?

So many things to learn for a newbie 

Thank you.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

PD2020 said:


> With Heat Exchanger machines, and MaraX specifically DaveC says in his review:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Small HX tube always has fresher water compared to dual boiler machine with a large brew boiler I'm basically trying to get my get round how this works. If on a given day the machine has been on all day long but I haven't made any coffee, then would the HX water reach the boiler temperature and stay there? Would it be the same water circulating in the thermosyphon all day long or does MaraX introduce a bit of fresher tank water without any barista action every now and then, thus keeping the HX water fresher and below the boiler temperature? And finally, if you do a cooling flush, would that replace all the water in the thermosyphon or just some minor part of it?
> 
> So many things to learn for a newbie
> 
> Thank you.
Click to expand...

Very good question.

If you do a cooling flush, yes, the water in the HX will be replaced. And that's the thing about the MaraX, a question I ask myself too: if the MaraX does not require a cooling flush, does this mean the water from the first coffee will always be made with the water stuck in the HX?


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If you do a cooling flush, yes, the water in the HX will be replaced. And that's the thing about the MaraX, a question I ask myself too: if the MaraX does not require a cooling flush, does this mean the water from the first coffee will always be made with the water stuck in the HX?


 Yes, of course....but that's still better than a dual boiler machine with a large brew boiler that isn't used very often. Remember Better is in terms of whether you believe it affects taste that much? It doesn't seem to for most people because all lever machines (I'm not talking Pavoni type machines) like Londinium, Conti, Izzo QM ECM etc.. have boilers (often quite large ones) from where they draw their water. If I think hard I don't remember people complaining about the taste of the espresso shots because it's not "fresh" water.

However "freshness" is often expressed as a marketing point and it is true to say it's fresher. *Personally I don't believe there is any significant impact on taste at all*...especially when far too many people don't clean behind shower screens for weeks, or the inside of portafilters every day. Unfortunately reviews have to cater to all levels of knowledge and if I don't use some of the same terms as the "marketing" a product gets an unfair rap...if that makes sense.


----------



## cengland117

PD2020 said:


> With Heat Exchanger machines, and MaraX specifically DaveC says in his review:
> 
> I'm basically trying to get my get round how this works. If on a given day the machine has been on all day long but I haven't made any coffee, then would the HX water reach the boiler temperature and stay there? Would it be the same water circulating in the thermosyphon all day long or does MaraX introduce a bit of fresher tank water without any barista action every now and then, thus keeping the HX water fresher and below the boiler temperature? And finally, if you do a cooling flush, would that replace all the water in the thermosyphon or just some minor part of it?
> 
> So many things to learn for a newbie
> 
> Thank you.


 I think when you actually pull the E61 lever you engage the pump which introduces fresh water which mixes (?) with the water in the thermosyphon and actually ends up exiting the group head. The pump does kick in periodically introducing fresh water when the machine is idle and that is to stop the thermosyphon loop from stalling.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

cengland117 said:


> I think when you actually pull the E61 lever you engage the pump which introduces fresh water which mixes (?) with the water in the thermosyphon and actually ends up exiting the group head. The pump does kick in periodically introducing fresh water when the machine is idle and that is to stop the thermosyphon loop from stalling.


That's good. The thermosyphon and the HX are different things though. 

And as Dave says, and he has a point, in the grand scheme of things... does it really matter.. .On a DB the water is trapped inside the boiler instead...


----------



## PD2020

DavecUK said:


> Yes, of course....but that's still better than a dual boiler machine with a large brew boiler that isn't used very often. Remember Better is in terms of whether you believe it affects taste that much? It doesn't seem to for most people because all lever machines (I'm not talking Pavoni type machines) like Londinium, Conti, Izzo QM ECM etc.. have boilers (often quite large ones) from where they draw their water. If I think hard I don't remember people complaining about the taste of the espresso shots because it's not "fresh" water.
> 
> However "freshness" is often expressed as a marketing point and it is true to say it's fresher. *Personally I don't believe there is any significant impact on taste at all*


 This is fair. Thank you, Dave. I'm sure the impact on taste is negligible, especially, as you say, compared with the impact of cleaning.

I'm merely trying to learn about the machine architecture  So aside from the impact on the taste, how much water is circulating in a MaraX exchanger pipe? Or in other words how much would water would I have to flush to get it all replaced with the water from the tank? MaraX's boiler is 1.8L so HX thermosyphon water must be significantly less than that, correct?

Sorry if it's a silly question but as a newbie I can't tell what's silly  I definitely find it interesting though, even if it has no practical (taste-impacting) use 



cengland117 said:


> I think when you actually pull the E61 lever you engage the pump which introduces fresh water which mixes (?) with the water in the thermosyphon and actually ends up exiting the group head. The pump does kick in periodically introducing fresh water when the machine is idle and that is to stop the thermosyphon loop from stalling.


 Thank you for sharing  So if the pump kicks in periodically, where does the excess HX thermosyphon water go? Does it evaporate given it's surrounded by steam-temperature boiler, and the pump then keeps on replenishing it?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

PD2020 said:


> Thank you for sharing  So if the pump kicks in periodically, where does the excess HX thermosyphon water go? Does it evaporate given it's surrounded by steam-temperature boiler, and the pump then keeps on replenishing it?


The water ends in the drip tray.

As for the thermosyphon, that circulates inside the service boiler, NOT inside the HX. They are different things.

I'm not sure about the MaraX, but I think the HX tube usually can hold roughly 100-150ml of water (Claudette from BB told me that ages ago) depending on design. Hopefully Dave can give you a more accurate answer.

I just googled this...

WWL video - See inside an HX boiler






Check out the health and safety measures there. Never mind the goggles...


----------



## stockportman

I've no idea whether this is the right part of the forum to post this (still finding my way around here,...) but I'm so excited I just had to post it somewhere

I've just had my shipping notification from BB. {cue silly dance around the kitchen}


----------



## Jason11

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The water ends in the drip tray. As for the thermosyphon, that circulates inside the service boiler, NOT inside the HX. They are different things.
> 
> I'm not sure about the MaraX, but I think the HX tube usually can hold roughly 100-150ml of water (Claudette from BB told me that ages ago) depending on design. Hopefully Dave can give you a more accurate answer.
> 
> I just googled this...
> 
> WWL video - See inside an HX boiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check out the health and safety measures there. Never mind the goggles...


Got to love the risk assessment that went on in making that video to show to the world


----------



## DavecUK

The Thermosyphon flow is within the HX unit and group, the main part of the boiler outside the HX delivers hot water and steam. HX sizes can vary depending on what the manufacturer wants, boiler size and what the boiler manufacturer claims. I actually never asked the size of the HX in MaraX but I would imagine it is around 150 ml. Even if I did know I wouldn't say because it would give other companies an unfair competitive advantage. I only give technical information that's obvious, secrets I might know (sometimes I ask to satisfy my need to ensure all is OK) but say nothing.


----------



## robti

stockportman said:


> I've no idea whether this is the right part of the forum to post this (still finding my way around here,...) but I'm so excited I just had to post it somewhere
> 
> I've just had my shipping notification from BB. {cue silly dance around the kitchen}


 I can understand I was over the moon when I they opened up with ordering a few weeks back, then I had just calmed down when an hour later I got the shipping notification


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The water ends in the drip tray. As for the thermosyphon, that circulates inside the service boiler, NOT inside the HX. They are different things.


I stand corrected! Thanks@DavecUK. I always thought the thermosyphon on HX machines circulated inside the main boiler and not inside the HX itself.

So, the thermosyphon runs inside the HX, not inside the service boiler itself.
@PD2020 for your info.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> The Thermosyphon flow is within the HX unit and group, the main part of the boiler outside the HX delivers hot water and steam. HX sizes can vary depending on what the manufacturer wants, boiler size and what the boiler manufacturer claims. I actually never asked the size of the HX in MaraX but I would imagine it is around 150 ml. Even if I did know I wouldn't say because it would give other companies an unfair competitive advantage. I only give technical information that's obvious, secrets I might know (sometimes I ask to satisfy my need to ensure all is OK) but say nothing.
> <img alt="image.thumb.png.54809aba58543a7199f1e5abd85b32b6.png" data-fileid="41680" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2020_06/image.thumb.png.54809aba58543a7199f1e5abd85b32b6.png" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


To clarify: when the MaraX dumps the water from the thermosyphon, does it dump the water from the HX too?


----------



## DavecUK

Everything that comes out of the group and expansion valve comes from the HX/Thermosyphon system.

In fact venting out of the expansion valve during a shot could be seen as fresher water in the HX system by some.


----------



## Stanic

MediumRoastSteam said:


> To clarify: when the MaraX dumps the water from the thermosyphon, does it dump the water from the HX too?


 There is a valve on the Hx return pipe, with which you can dump the water from the thermosyphon circuit, on MaraX


----------



## cengland117

Today marks a sad day indeed...my machine is definitely experiencing technical issues. This morning, I switched it on as usual to heat up, it went through it's usual boost procedure to reach temperature. It did that and normally the steam pressure gauge gradually falls to 0.5 bar where it will stay until the pump is engaged. Today it wouldn't fall below 1.5. And strangely, would occasionally boost the boiler again bringing it up to 2.5...the result being super heated brew water. This was on temperature setting 0 and brew priority mode. I imagine there was an issue with the temperature sensor as it seems to be really confused about what temperature it was aiming for. Back to Bella Barista I go...









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

cengland117 said:


> Today marks a sad day indeed...my machine is definitely experiencing technical issues. This morning, I switched it on as usual to heat up, it went through it's usual boost procedure to reach temperature. It did that and normally the steam pressure gauge gradually falls to 0.5 bar where it will stay until the pump is engaged. Today it wouldn't fall below 1.5. And strangely, would occasionally boost the boiler again bringing it up to 2.5...the result being super heated brew water. This was on temperature setting 0 and brew priority mode. I imagine there was an issue with the temperature sensor as it seems to be really confused about what temperature it was aiming for. Back to Bella Barista I go...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 How long had it been on when was it still doing this?

presumably you have standby mode disabled?


----------



## cengland117

Yes standby mode disabled. It had been on for 30 minutes-ish before I did a cooling flush.


----------



## DavecUK

cengland117 said:


> Yes standby mode disabled. It had been on for 30 minutes-ish before I did a cooling flush.


 Cooling flush?


----------



## cengland117

After the boiler had sat at 1.5 for 10 minutes I wanted to see what would come out. With the obvious answer being a bucket of boiling water.


----------



## DavecUK

I honestly don't know how it would react if you did a big flush and perhaps it wasn't fully warmed up and performing its programmed overheat cycle. It might just push it higher again?


----------



## ross.mcmanus

Just received my Mara X and it looks stunning, can't wait to get started with it in the morning.

Really impressed by the service from Bella Barista. Free bag of beans was a nice surprise.

Can anyone recommend how to safely remove the residue from the "caution hot" sticker on the group head?

Thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

ross.mcmanus said:


> Just received my Mara X and it looks stunning, can't wait to get started with it in the morning.
> 
> Really impressed by the service from Bella Barista. Free bag of beans was a nice surprise.
> 
> Can anyone recommend how to safely remove the residue from the "caution hot" sticker on the group head?
> 
> Thanks


It didn't peel off clean? Strange. I suppose it's only glue. I wouldn't use any chemicals. Have you tried rubbing off with your fingers (I.e: friction)?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ross.mcmanus

Thanks @MediumRoastSteam

I will give that a go!


----------



## salty

ross.mcmanus said:


> Just received my Mara X and it looks stunning, can't wait to get started with it in the morning.
> 
> Really impressed by the service from Bella Barista. Free bag of beans was a nice surprise.
> 
> Can anyone recommend how to safely remove the residue from the "caution hot" sticker on the group head?
> 
> Thanks


This always works for me http:// https://www.lakeland.co.uk/8976/Sticky-Stuff-Glue-Residue-and-Oil-Remover-250ml

Also had good results using WD40

Always with the machine cold

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ross.mcmanus

@salty perfect, I'll give them a go if the friction method doesn't work.


----------



## Rob1

Isopropyl eats through glue and evaporates without residue.


----------



## ross.mcmanus

Rob1 said:


> Isopropyl eats through glue and evaporates without residue.


I'm spoilt for choices now! Thanks everyone for the help

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## robti

Rob1 said:


> Isopropyl eats through glue and evaporates without residue.


 That's what I used, mind the lock sticker on the front of the grouphead in case you want to keep it


----------



## stockportman

I use white spirit to remove adhesive residue from stuff


----------



## Rhadu

i used olive oil for the adhesive residue from both stickers. After that a damp towel to clean the oil residue. There are multiple options, depends what you have on hand 😛


----------



## ross.mcmanus

I tried using the @MediumRoastSteam method of rubbing to create some friction and it worked perfectly.

little rub down with a cloth afterwards and it's looking as lovely as the rest of the machine.

Now to make some espresso 🤞🏻


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

ross.mcmanus said:


> I tried using the @MediumRoastSteam method of rubbing to create some friction and it worked perfectly.
> 
> little rub down with a cloth afterwards and it's looking as lovely as the rest of the machine.
> 
> Now to make some espresso


Ha! It's amazing what the human body can do. Your skin is the soft cloth, and it's already oiled. 

Edit: I always try very simple, inoffensive methods first. You'll also find that, to clean your machine exterior, all you'll ever need is 2 microfibre cloths: one moisten with water and one dry. Wipe your machine with the moisten one and dry it subsequently afterwards. Shine and sparkly as new!


----------



## stockportman

stockportman said:


> I've no idea whether this is the right part of the forum to post this (still finding my way around here,...) but I'm so excited I just had to post it somewhere
> 
> I've just had my shipping notification from BB. {cue silly dance around the kitchen}


 IT'S ARRIVED!!!!!!!!! Unfortunately I'm working full time, and we have people over (drinks at a distance in the back garden) tonight - so don't get to play with it for a while. Darn.
It looks AMAZING though. {cue another silly dance}


----------



## robti

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Ha! It's amazing what the human body can do. Your skin is the soft cloth, and it's already oiled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: I always try very simple, inoffensive methods first. You'll also find that, to clean your machine exterior, all you'll ever need is 2 microfibre cloths: one moisten with water and one dry. Wipe your machine with the moisten one and dry it subsequently afterwards. Shine and sparkly as new!


 And there I was just getting ready to ask this as noticed some coffee stains on mine. 
Thanks


----------



## paul87

Mine arrives today ! - Hurry up Fedex! 😄


----------



## Border_all

stockportman said:


> IT'S ARRIVED!!!!!!!!! Unfortunately I'm working full time, and we have people over (drinks at a distance in the back garden) tonight - so don't get to play with it for a while. Darn.
> It looks AMAZING though. {cue another silly dance}


 Looks like coffee drinks all round tonight served in the garden... enjoy


----------



## Bicky

Border_all said:


> Looks like coffee drinks all round tonight served in the garden... enjoy


https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/52845-expresso-martinis?do=embed

😉


----------



## paul87

She's here!

Bit hot for coffee though!

Perhaps an affogato after dinner 😋


----------



## Jony

Iced coffee chop chop, ps use almond milk it's thicker ohh my home one is So the interaction is slower


----------



## Stanic

paul87 said:


> Perhaps an affogato after dinner 😋


 always a good idea, with a dash of amaretto

probably the cause of my weight gain during lockdown lol


----------



## JamesMac

ross.mcmanus said:


> I'm spoilt for choices now! Thanks everyone for the help
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Mine came off and kindly left all its glue behind and I didnt want to wait for isopropyl etc so I used a soft cloth with a drop of fairy dish soap on it and it came off in a few minutes.

Enjoy it , its a thing of beauty


----------



## Stanic

since I had the MaraX, I changed the original shower screen for the IMS 35 μm, but after 3 weeks and doing some deep cleaning I noticed that it is not very easy to clean - needs a good soak in Pulycaf, like 1 hour or so with good scrubbing, to get rid of the brownish tint visible against light

wonder how much dirt stays between the mesh and the metal bits (I read an old tech manual for LM Linea few years ago and they actually recommended for the technicians to carry around torches for burning off of the gunk accumulated at the shower screens)

so today I've got the IMS 200 μm shower screen, which is easy to clean - machined from a solid piece of metal (I had the same type fitted with the Rancilio Silvia)

it might let more coffee particles migrate behind it but my goal is to be able to keep everything clean easily


----------



## jaffro

Stanic said:


> since I had the MaraX, I changed the original shower screen for the IMS 35 μm, but after 3 weeks and doing some deep cleaning I noticed that it is not very easy to clean - needs a good soak in Pulycaf, like 1 hour or so with good scrubbing, to get rid of the brownish tint visible against light
> 
> wonder how much dirt stays between the mesh and the metal bits (I read an old tech manual for LM Linea few years ago and they actually recommended for the technicians to carry around torches for burning off of the gunk accumulated at the shower screens)
> 
> so today I've got the IMS 200 μm shower screen, which is easy to clean - machined from a solid piece of metal (I had the same type fitted with the Rancilio Silvia)
> 
> it might let more coffee particles migrate behind it but my goal is to be able to keep everything clean easily


 I recently put the 200 on mine and I love it. Maybe my prep has just magically got a ton better, but even with the 15g vst (which tends to spritz like an absolute champion unless everything is totally perfect) I've had perfect pours ever since installing it... Love it.


----------



## Doram

Stanic said:


> (I had the same type fitted with the Rancilio Silvia)


 Very interested to hear your ovservations on how you find the Mara compared to the Silvia (in both use of the machine and cup quality). Is there anything you found better or more convenient on the Silvia? Any disadvantages to the Mara in comparison?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> Very interested to hear you ovservations on how do you find the Mara compared to the Silvia (in both use of the machine and cup quality). Is there anything you found better or more convenient on the Silvia? Any disadvantages to the Mara in comparison?


I think I can start this. Pros for the Mara:
- temperature stability 
- steam capability
- steam / brew readiness
- no temp surfing


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I think I can start this. Pros for the Mara:
> - temperature stability
> - steam capability
> - steam / brew readiness
> - no temp surfing


 I think the 'on paper' advantages of the Mara over the Silvia are well known. I was wondering how these pan out in real life use and icup quality, and also whether there are any disadvantages in comparison to Silvia. 🙂


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> I think the 'on paper' advantages of the Mara over the Silvia are well known. I was wondering how these pan out in real life use and icup quality, and also whether there are any disadvantages in comparison to Silvia.


Those are not on paper. For instance, do you know what temperature the Silvia brews at? Do you know which pressure the Silvia brews at? Can you just show up and pull, without temp surfing and know the temperature within 2 degrees Celsius?

Can you steam straight after or at the same time when you make a cup, without having to figure out the best timing so the element will be on?

The answer to all the above is no, you cannot. There are best guesses, but you need to establish a pattern that you think works.

There are advantages to the Silvia, like fast heat up time, less complex, compact. Those not "in the cup" advantages though.

I'll leave the rest to Stanic.


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Those are not on paper. '
> 
> ll leave the rest to Stanic.


 When I said 'on paper', I didn't mean the Mara advantages are not real. I am sure they are. I just wanted to hear about the real world experience of someone who used both machines. Stanic?


----------



## Stanic

Doram said:


> Very interested to hear your ovservations on how you find the Mara compared to the Silvia (in both use of the machine and cup quality). Is there anything you found better or more convenient on the Silvia? Any disadvantages to the Mara in comparison?


 I had the Silvia v4 (2015) which I fitted with the meCoffee PID, and few other little things

with the PID the thermal stability was excellent and the espresso was great - the cup quality doesn't depend that much on the machine once you get the temp and pressure right, with some differences like pre-infusion or pump flow rate, of course the pre-infusion with Silvia was not so refined - done with the steam wand valve 😛

what I didn't like with Silvia was the noise of the pump and of course the operation of a single boiler machine when making milk drinks - but the steam power was also pretty good

the MaraX can be used like a "pro-sumer" machine which to me mostly means among other that you can brew coffee and froth milk at the same time and it is relatively easy to clean

it is very small for what it is and very quiet for a vibe pump, and gives you the opportunity to install a flow control valve

of course the e61 group is also good for heating of the room...the hidden ring brew group of Silvia is probably more thermally effective, whatever that means 

what I also liked with Silvia plus meCoffee PID was that I could change the settings via an app and have a live feed of the boiler temp (recorded as a graph) with ability to set the temp to 1/10 of a °C



jaffro said:


> I recently put the 200 on mine and I love it. Maybe my prep has just magically got a ton better, but even with the 15g vst (which tends to spritz like an absolute champion unless everything is totally perfect) I've had perfect pours ever since installing it... Love it.


 great to hear 👍

the Niche seems to be doing a great job with the 15g VST then


----------



## jaffro

Stanic said:


> great to hear
> 
> the Niche seems to be doing a great job with the 15g VST then


 Yeah it's smashing it. I'm interested to try grinding directly into the portafilter and just stirring the top grinds, like Scott Rao suggests, but I tried without a funnel and coffee went EVERYWHERE. Well... Mostly in the portafilter, but it wasn't pretty.

That said, nothing wrong with the shots as it is, so why change?

Also, your thoughts on upgrading from Sylvia with PID are very similar to mine with a Classic with PID. Although the temperature did seem to drop off slightly through the shot with the classic.

MaraX is another beast though. Thing I like about it most is that I don't need to think about anything. It just works.


----------



## Stanic

jaffro said:


> Yeah it's smashing it. I'm interested to try grinding directly into the portafilter and just stirring the top grinds, like Scott Rao suggests, but I tried without a funnel and coffee went EVERYWHERE. Well... Mostly in the portafilter, but it wasn't pretty.
> 
> That said, nothing wrong with the shots as it is, so why change?
> 
> Also, your thoughts on upgrading from Sylvia with PID are very similar to mine with a Classic with PID. Although the temperature did seem to drop off slightly through the shot with the classic.
> 
> MaraX is another beast though. Thing I like about it most is that I don't need to think about anything. It just works.


 I only used the metal cup probably 3 times to transfer ground coffee and only weight the beans in it since I started to grind in the PF...I am stirring the whole thing properly

the good thing with the meCoffee was also that you could set the boiler element recovery % using the temp graph in the app for its fine tuning - but this also depended on how long the machine was on of course 

but it was all really easy to observe and change as necessary

wifi connection with parameters tuning should be mandatory in every machine LOL


----------



## PD2020

Hi Stanic and Jaffro,

Which type of the 200µm IMS Shower Screen have you picked: E61 200 NT (Nanotech), E61 200 IM (Integrated Membrane), or perhaps something else?


----------



## Stanic

PD2020 said:


> Hi Stanic and Jaffro,
> 
> Which type of the 200µm IMS Shower Screen have you picked: E61 200 NT (Nanotech), E61 200 IM (Integrated Membrane), or perhaps something else?


 the E61 200 IM (Integrated Membrane)


----------



## paul87

Are people experimenting much with the temperature settings ?

Im dialled in now and the espresso is good - but not mind blowingly better than my classic. ( ive got a SGP grinder)

I've never had a machine with temp control before - in general do people just follow temp settings from the roaster - Red Brick recommends 94c for example.?

Or do you just follow general principles of darker the roast the lower the temp?


----------



## robti

hi all mainly @Stanic and @Jaffro but anyone can answer, is the E61 200 IM (Integrated Membrane) better than the stock Mara one ?

Thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Came across this video from BB last night, locked down and bored rigid up to my skull.... what else can we do but to look at coffee machines? 

Anyway, puts the MaraX into perspective of how nice and compact it is!

From the video above:


----------



## Stanic

robti said:


> hi all mainly @Stanic and @Jaffro but anyone can answer, is the E61 200 IM (Integrated Membrane) better than the stock Mara one ?
> 
> Thanks


 With regards to cleaning, I'd say yes


----------



## jaffro

PD2020 said:


> Hi Stanic and Jaffro,
> 
> Which type of the 200µm IMS Shower Screen have you picked: E61 200 NT (Nanotech), E61 200 IM (Integrated Membrane), or perhaps something else?


 200 IM. I bought it off the forum for a tenner including postage, worth a pint for that!



robti said:


> hi all mainly @Stanic and @Jaffro but anyone can answer, is the E61 200 IM (Integrated Membrane) better than the stock Mara one ?
> 
> Thanks


 I prefer it so far, but I've only pulled what, 7 or 8 shots on it so far?

Feels like it's helped me tame the 15g VST somewhat, which is nice! But could just be that I've been taking more care over my prep.


----------



## Bicky

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/hft5zv

Pretty interesting project someone has done to monitor what's going on under the hood of the Mara x. It's basically the same data that you could see in a few of the Lelit Insider videos, but they've built a dashboard with graphs to make the data more digestible, and to track changes over time. Kinda cool.


----------



## Rhadu

Also on a Romanian forum a user posted what he did. Realtime temperature of the HX return, the steam boiler temp and also a shot timer. It's amazing!!

I want to do a hybrid between what this user did with the lcd with shot timer and the reddit user to serve the data on a webpage or to a mobile app.


----------



## Stanic

yeah, I already drooled over it today 

excellent work


----------



## borez

Rhadu said:


> Also on a Romanian forum a user posted what he did. Realtime temperature of the HX return, the steam boiler temp and also a shot timer. It's amazing!!
> 
> I want to do a hybrid between what this user did with the lcd with shot timer and the reddit user to serve the data on a webpage or to a mobile app.
> 
> View attachment 41967
> 
> 
> View attachment 41968


 This is exactly what I'm looking for - a small PID breakout box. Mind if you could share the links (or PM if it's not allowed?)


----------



## siliconslave

Rhadu said:


> I want to do a hybrid between what this user did with the lcd with shot timer and the reddit user to serve the data on a webpage or to a mobile app.


 Sounds like a perfect raspberry pi zero and screen project... Not that I need annother project to jump into 😁


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Back in stock at BB:

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-marax-espresso-machine.html


----------



## Rhadu

borez said:


> This is exactly what I'm looking for - a small PID breakout box. Mind if you could share the links (or PM if it's not allowed?)


 Here you go. He also linked a github page where he uploaded the code for the controller, you can find it in the post. 
https://www.espressoman.ro/forum/Thread-Lelit-Mara-X-HX-reinventat?pid=138213#pid138213



siliconslave said:


> Sounds like a perfect raspberry pi zero and screen project... Not that I need annother project to jump into 😁


 Exactly what i was thinking!


----------



## jaffro

Rhadu said:


> Here you go. He also linked a github page where he uploaded the code for the controller, you can find it in the post.
> https://www.espressoman.ro/forum/Thread-Lelit-Mara-X-HX-reinventat?pid=138213#pid138213
> 
> Exactly what i was thinking!


 Hmm... I do have a spare raspberry pi at the moment...


----------



## siliconslave

Looks like the code is for the shot timer (https://github.com/alexrus/espresso_timer) running on a NodeMCU iot chip wired into a small display.

The best bit about this is the chip comes with onboard WiFi so you should be able to pick up the temps and time via WiFi.

Wonder if you could link it into a Acaia Pearl...


----------



## DavecUK

It's an interesting read but really misses the point of the machine, simplicity.


----------



## Doram

DavecUK said:


> It's an interesting read but really misses the point of the machine, simplicity.


 My thought (and worries, while I wait for my machine) exactly. I am hoping Mara X can perform by turning it on for half an hour (or more), then going to it whenever and pulling a shot without worrying about the temperature, knowing the machine will get it right. The idea that there is a 'perfect window' (at 32-35 minutes from turning on, according to the experiment), suggests that at other times the temperature isn't perfect?

Your review (and the videos on Lelit Insider) indicate that this isn't the case at all. In those it seems that while the boiler temperature indeed fluctuates, the machine manages to reach the set temperature in the group at the time of extraction, regardless of the timing and HX temp (providing the machine had time to warm up + it isn't in the 'steaming window' (starting 4-5 minutes after the first shot, and ending 15 minutes later when the machine had time to cool down). I won't pretend I understand how it gets to the set temp in the group from different temps in the HX (maybe you can explain this Dave?), but I hope this is what it does, and if it manages that - why do we need to know the temperature in the boiler or in the HX?


----------



## DavecUK

Doram said:


> My thought (and worries, while I wait for my machine) exactly. I am hoping Mara X can perform by turning it on for half an hour (or more), then going to it whenever and pulling a shot without worrying about the temperature, knowing the machine will get it right. The idea that there is a 'perfect window' (at 32-35 minutes from turning on, according to the experiment), suggests that at other times the temperature isn't perfect?
> 
> Your review (and the videos on Lelit Insider) indicate that this isn't the case at all. In those it seems that while the boiler temperature indeed fluctuates, the machine manages to reach the set temperature in the group at the time of extraction, regardless of the timing and HX temp (providing the machine had time to warm up + it isn't in the 'steaming window' (starting 4-5 minutes after the first shot, and ending 15 minutes later when the machine had time to cool down). I won't pretend I understand how it gets to the set temp in the group from different temps in the HX (maybe you can explain this Dave?), but I hope this is what it does, and if it manages that - why do we need to know the temperature in the boiler or in the HX?


 I've been using a MaraX, or a prototype variant where I fed back to Lelit on the thermal management since May 2019. I test the water as it hits the coffee, not watch some electronic readout connected to a thermal probe in the HX. My stuff is real world and proved in videos (as I know you have seen). I don't just say it I try and show it. I would suggest you trust the review I wrote. If my review wasn't right, I think you would have heard shouts about it by now. It's also one of the best selling HX machines at the moment when retailers can get stock.

The way it manages temperatures is a similar way as all double boiler E61 machines, in that it uses a calculation to decide what HX temperature equates to what group temperature. In MaraX it doesn't need to display an offset, so that calculation is hard coded into the machine. It will look at the water temperature in the loop and boost it as required (it can do some other things to but I won't mention them as it might give others some competitive advantage). If the environment where the machine is placed it will give more heat...if it's warmet it uses less. Again no magic, just a function of physics. The reason the temperature can vary and I give it in ballpark ranges is simply because as you pull a shot the system starts dynamically changing and reaches a different equilibrium, hence the first second shot variance.

The great thing is most people won't have a problem with that and it's way better than a standard HX. If people want very precise temperature control, then they need to move to Minima, Bianca, Elizabeth, ECM etc.. dual boiler machines.

So you don't need to know the temperature, just cool, medium and hot, then use the table I gave to understand how you affect that. If 1 is not to your taste try II, or III, especially with a very light roasted coffee you can try bumping it up. I am testing some new stuff I asked for, which may come out in 2021, *if it works which it might not* (or I will be when I get round to it, I'm finishing off the Elizabeth work).

When I said



> I love this little machine, it's attractive, compact, simple quiet, easy to use, smart plug capable and effective. If you want value for money and great shots&#8230;.this is a "no brainer". *It makes other prosumer HX machines look out of date.*


 I really meant it....sometimes it's just nice to walk up and pull a shot...brain not engaged


----------



## Doram

DavecUK said:


> I really meant it....sometimes it's just nice to walk up and pull a shot...brain not engaged


 Thank you very much Dave. This is how I understood it works, and it's reassuring to hear it again. The videos do make it seem like magic, and this magic is exactly what I want (especially after more than 20 years with machines that require temp surfing, I believe I have served my time, lol)!


----------



## Nikko

The Mara X temperature management is a combination of two technologies which are not always compatible. One is using a heavy lump of metal to even out fluctuations, the other is set point reset (or cascade control) to manage the steam boiler to give the desired brew temperature. That would be ok if you never need to steam as the steam pressure to maintain brew temperature Is too low to steam. But because the machine is also sold as a steamer, the steam pressure needs to be raised when it detects that it is being used and here lies the problem as the higher steam pressure will increase the brew temperature. Of course, the big lump of metal will slow down the rise in brew temperature but not for long and the brew temperature at some point for subsequent coffees will be higher. You may get away with another brew or perhaps two if you are quick but then you'll need a cooling flush if you want to carry on or else give the machine 20 to 30 minutes to cool down


----------



## DavecUK

Doram said:


> Thank you very much Dave. This is how I understood it works, and it's reassuring to hear it again. The videos do make it seem like magic, and this magic is exactly what I want (especially after more than 20 years with machines that require temp surfing, I believe I have served my time, lol)!


 I think you will love the MaraX and you need to be careful how you interpret comments from people who have never used one. Those sort of comments are as useful as someone who owns one of these, telling you it's more reliable than a MaraX and with better temperature management or some other such nonsense. Trouble is a machine like this wooden work except in the imagination of the user.










P.S. note the shot timer...absent on the MaraX  (or is that a clock)

P.P.S. It doesn't video as well as it photographs, you wooden get a decent pour!


----------



## Doram

DavecUK said:


> P.P.S. It doesn't video as well as it photographs, you wooden get a decent pour!


 Thanks, I have a feeling I will like the Mara X as you said. (If not , I can get the wooden machine; Temperature stability looks solid.😉)


----------



## DavecUK

Doram said:


> Thanks, I have a feeling I will like the Mara X as you said. (If not , I can get the wooden machine; Temperature stability looks solid.😉)


 It's absolutely solid and as unchanging as Steven Segal or a fixed opinion. I suspect it wooden work for you as there isn't the flexibility there.


----------



## calin

Hey guys/girls, I'm the author of that reddit post on data visualisation for a MaraX. I should first mention that if anyone has any questions or something is unclear on the setup, I would be more than happy to help!

I should clear something up though as one of the things I wrote was poorly worded.



Doram said:


> My thought (and worries, while I wait for my machine) exactly. I am hoping Mara X can perform by turning it on for half an hour (or more), then going to it whenever and pulling a shot without worrying about the temperature, knowing the machine will get it right. The idea that there is a 'perfect window' (at 32-35 minutes from turning on, according to the experiment), suggests that at other times the temperature isn't perfect?
> 
> Your review (and the videos on Lelit Insider) indicate that this isn't the case at all. In those it seems that while the boiler temperature indeed fluctuates, the machine manages to reach the set temperature in the group at the time of extraction, regardless of the timing and HX temp (providing the machine had time to warm up + it isn't in the 'steaming window' (starting 4-5 minutes after the first shot, and ending 15 minutes later when the machine had time to cool down). I won't pretend I understand how it gets to the set temp in the group from different temps in the HX (maybe you can explain this Dave?), but I hope this is what it does, and if it manages that - why do we need to know the temperature in the boiler or in the HX?


 The 32-35 minute mark is when the HX temperature sensor first stabilises at the PID target (e.g. setting 1 = 94 degrees). After this point the temperature definitely doesn't change/fluctuate. The 32-35 minute window only refers to how long it takes to get there. If you pulled a shot at 40/50/60 minutes it would be the correct temperature, so no worries there 

Sorry that it was confusingly written, I also updated the original post to try clarify it.

I should mention that I absolutely love the machine and it works really well for my relatively straightforward use. I didn't intend anything in my post to be a criticism of the machine, more just an insight into what's happening with the temperature at certain times.



DavecUK said:


> It's an interesting read but really misses the point of the machine, simplicity.





DavecUK said:


> I've been using a MaraX, or a prototype variant where I fed back to Lelit on the thermal management since May 2019. I test the water as it hits the coffee, not watch some electronic readout connected to a thermal probe in the HX. My stuff is real world and proved in videos (as I know you have seen). I don't just say it I try and show it. I would suggest you trust the review I wrote. If my review wasn't right, I think you would have heard shouts about it by now. It's also one of the best selling HX machines at the moment when retailers can get stock.


 I'll start by saying, your review of the machine was excellent and along with your videos, it played a significant part in why I ended up with the MaraX.

In saying that, I'm honestly a bit surprised by the negative feedback here. I actually mention in the post that some of the things I found "echo what was in Dave's review", so I'm not particularly sure what you mean - e.g. "real world".

The data I currently have really just confirms some things you found during your testing: brew temperature does not fluctuate between concurrent shots, if you leave the machine 4-5 minutes after a shot you need to wait ~15 minutes for it to cool down, and the general behaviour of steam boosting after a shot.

One of the potentially controversial things I said is having to wait 32-35 minutes before pulling a shot (clarified above). However, in your review you also say "I personally gave it 30 minutes, usually I like to give my machines 45 minutes, but this seemed ready to play.". It actually seems we're fairly closely aligned in this case. Something I noticed before setting up the data tracking is occasionally my shots would seem hotter than others (I taste each shot as soon as I pull it, then steam milk). What I realised is I was pulling shots at the 20-25 minute mark, when the temperature in the HX was 100 degrees - whether this is the same as the actual brew temperature is unknown to me, but I can make a fairly safe guess that I should let it stabilise first.

It's small pieces of information like this that made the project really fun and interesting for me. Does anyone else with a MaraX actually need any of this? No, of course not. But similarly with your review, without that information people would not have understood how the machine operates. This just adds some additional data to backup some of the info!

At the end of the day, this was just a fun project for me over the weekend - let's keep it that way


----------



## Doram

calin said:


> The 32-35 minute mark is when the HX temperature sensor first stabilises at the PID target (e.g. setting 1 = 94 degrees). After this point the temperature definitely doesn't change/fluctuate. The 32-35 minute window only refers to how long it takes to get there. If you pulled a shot at 40/50/60 minutes it would be the correct temperature, so no worries there
> 
> Sorry that it was confusingly written, I also updated the original post to try clarify it.


 Thank you for clarifying this Calin. It did occur to me when I read your interesting post that this might be what you meant, but it's good to be sure.
Coming from temp-surfing (with a thermocouple) and trying to tame a temp-fluctuation machine on every shot, one of the main appeals of the Mara X to me (and I guess everyone else) is that I can leave this behind me and let the machine worry about the temperature while I can focus on other things. Reading your post with mentions of 'perfect window' and 'overshooting to 100 degrees' threw me back to the idea of having to mod the machine, get temp readouts and try to hit the right temperature, which is one of the main things I hope to avoid with Mara X. I am therefore very happy that I misunderstood your post in that respect.


----------



## PD2020

Stanic said:


> my OPV was set to just above 10 bar, I've tuned it down a bit so that when brewing, I hit 8,5 bar max at the group manometer





DavecUK said:


> Ideally it should be 9 against a blind filter...





Stanic said:


> I was getting 9.5 max when brewing which was a bit annoying
> 
> I am now getting 9.3-9.5 against blind filter


 What is the difference between the pressure on the Marax's built-in Pump Pressure Manometer vs the pressure on the Group Manometer (I understand that's the one from the Profitec or Lelit Profiling Kit, a.k.a. the paddle)?

Are the values of Pump Pressure or Group Pressure identical for the out-of-box Marax? I've seen in videos demonstrating pressure profiling that Pump Pressure and Group Pressure have different values, but is that the case only for machines with the profiling kit installed?

Thank you


----------



## DavecUK

calin said:


> Hey guys/girls, I'm the author of that reddit post on data visualisation for a MaraX. I should first mention that if anyone has any questions or something is unclear on the setup, I would be more than happy to help!
> 
> In saying that, I'm honestly a bit surprised by the negative feedback here. I actually mention in the post that some of the things I found "echo what was in Dave's review", so I'm not particularly sure what you mean - e.g. "real world".


 Real world is a term used to denote during actual usage of the machine in the home environment to make coffee. A mistake many manufacturers do is to set the machine up using lab style tests, that in the "real world" don't actually reflect what the user experiences. Hopefully that clarifies it, there has been no criticism of your work, unless you take



> It's an interesting read but really misses the point of the machine, simplicity.


 All that meant was what you did was interesting, but for me the whole rationale behind Mara was to make things as simple as possible, cool, med, hot and no flushing. No shot timers, no profiling, no adjustments...walk up and shoot. It's not a critisicm of your work (which was interesting) or you. In the same way buying an eco car and turbocharging it would be missing the point but for sure some people do it. You're going to need a thicker skin than that on here, especially if you misunderstand posts. 

The guy with the machine that wooden work no doubt has a hugely thick skin


----------



## Bicky

@calin I put the link to your post here, hope you don't mind! I done so because I found it interesting and I assumed some people here would do also. I think the results mostly validate what we already knew, or assumed, about the machine (as you said in your post), but it's always good to have more solid data to back it up.

It looked like a really fun project, and having the tablet beside the machine showing the real time data on your dashboard is pretty damn cool in my book 😎


----------



## Bowser

Hi all, real newbie question coming up so go easy...

I've read all the reviews and I'm really keen on this machine. In terms of trying to sell the purchase to the other half, and the fact it will take up work surface space, can the water wand be used for making a cup of tea? Or is it only really designed for small amounts of water to heat a cup?

If it could be used for the wife's tea it could displace the kettle and the deal would move a little closer to being sealed. However, I have strong suspicions the answer will be 'don't be silly, you'll need a kettle to make your tea!'.

Thanks.


----------



## Jason11

Bowser said:


> Hi all, real newbie question coming up so go easy...
> I've read all the reviews and I'm really keen on this machine. In terms of trying to sell the purchase to the other half, and the fact it will take up work surface space, can the water wand be used for making a cup of tea? Or is it only really designed for small amounts of water to heat a cup?
> If it could be used for the wife's tea it could displace the kettle and the deal would move a little closer to being sealed. However, I have strong suspicions the answer will be 'don't be silly, you'll need a kettle to make your tea!'.
> Thanks.


Don't be silly you need an Osmio Zero to make your tea


----------



## Badgerman

Jason11 said:


> Don't be silly you need an Osmio Zero to make your tea


Ha. +1 at having had that conversation. To be fair the Osmio does make your tea (and coffee) taste nicer.

Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## Bowser

Thanks both. Out of interest, what happens if you pull 250ml if water through the water wand? Presumably you get big slug of cold water into the boiler and you have to wait for that to heat up and for the whole system to stabilise again?


----------



## robti

Bowser said:


> Thanks both. Out of interest, what happens if you pull 250ml if water through the water wand? Presumably you get big slug of cold water into the boiler and you have to wait for that to heat up and for the whole system to stabilise again?


 Not an expert but I would do the water last after any coffee


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Bowser said:


> Thanks both. Out of interest, what happens if you pull 250ml if water through the water wand? Presumably you get big slug of cold water into the boiler and you have to wait for that to heat up and for the whole system to stabilise again?


There are posts in this forum which recommend you do not use your coffee machine as a kettle.

But let me ask you differently: what water are you intending to feed your machine with?


----------



## robti

MediumRoastSteam said:


> There are posts in this forum which recommend you do not use your coffee machine as a kettle.
> 
> But let me ask you differently: what water are you intending to feed your machine with?


 Can I ask re these posts, is that for switching the machine on just to use as a kettle or at the same time as for coffee, as sometimes just before I switch the machine off I make a tea with the hot water ?

Thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Let me find them for you


----------



## Bowser

MediumRoastSteam said:


> There are posts in this forum which recommend you do not use your coffee machine as a kettle.
> 
> But let me ask you differently: what water are you intending to feed your machine with?


Ah right, my apologies, didn't think to search that question generally 

But in answer to your question, just our usual Brita filter jug.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Ok... I give up. The search on this forum is too painful. I can't find it. 

But, relying on memory:
- it will increase strain on the heating element
- if will scale up quicker, as it will build up sediment. The temperature is far higher than the brew boiler too, increasing precipitation of scaling to the bottom.

It is good, however, to cycle the water from the boiler (a cup every 6 or 8 coffees or so) otherwise the water inside the boiler will be very alkaline due to the precipitation of minerals, and the fact that steam is drawn (pure water).

Saying that, this was before the Osmio and more awareness of the right water for your coffee machine. I do not know the implications of using the hot water wand if the water inside it is non scaling (I.e: reverse osmosis with a pinch of sodium bicarbonate for example).


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Bowser said:


> Ah right, my apologies, didn't think to search that question generally
> 
> But in answer to your question, just our usual Brita filter jug.


Ok... did you read about boiler friendly water? What's your tap water like?

Edit: you really do need to think abou the water. You don't want to spend a considerable sum of money and treat your machine like a kitchen appliance. If you live in a hard water area, your machine will start giving you problems very soon. Just look inside your kettle and then imagine that with the water temperature 30% hotter, constantly. Imagine the state of your shiny coffee machine boilers and pipes. Descaling is not a solution, it's a remedy for something that should've been avoided in the first place.

Also, you'll need to keep the machine well maintained. There's a maintenance regime, cleaning shower screen, backflushing and lubricating the group periodically. It all becomes second nature, but you mustn't overlook it.

I'm not trying to put you off. But I want to make sure you understand this is not something (not exclusively the MaraX, but any prosumer coffee machine really) you just put in the kitchen and make coffee with it when you fancy. Well, you can, but won't last long. Treat it more like a car rather than a washing machine.

Ps: which grinder are you thinking?


----------



## Border_all

Bowser said:


> Hi all, real newbie question coming up so go easy...
> 
> I've read all the reviews and I'm really keen on this machine. In terms of trying to sell the purchase to the other half, and the fact it will take up work surface space, can the water wand be used for making a cup of tea? Or is it only really designed for small amounts of water to heat a cup?
> 
> If it could be used for the wife's tea it could displace the kettle and the deal would move a little closer to being sealed. However, I have strong suspicions the answer will be 'don't be silly, you'll need a kettle to make your tea!'.
> 
> Thanks.


 You would probably get fed up of filling the water tank for making tea and oddly it's probably a bit hot. If you can cope with that it's your machine your choice. As a person that drinks more cups of tea a day than coffee i also recommend the Osio for tea especially herbal. Make a deal for both 👍


----------



## PD2020

1) Do you recommend to drain the boiler every now and then to prevent the mineral build up? I'm using Osmio Zero water but if I make mostly non-milk based drinks, I imagine I will end up with much higher TDS water in the boiler, is that right?

2) If so, how often should I drain it? I remember Rob1 said he's drinking his ACS Minima boiler every couple of weeks or so. Not sure if it's relevant but that's a dual boiler machine.

3) Also, what's a good way to drain the boiler? Just using the hot water tap all the way until empty and then let the pump refill?

4) How can I test the water in the boiler? Is it ok to use the hot water tap and use a TDS reader on the sample?

Edit: I have just checked my hot water tap sample had a TDS of 220 (originally Osmio water I put in had around 60-70). And I only received the machine on Tuesday.


----------



## Boxerman33

Bowser said:


> Hi all, real newbie question coming up so go easy...
> 
> I've read all the reviews and I'm really keen on this machine. In terms of trying to sell the purchase to the other half, and the fact it will take up work surface space, can the water wand be used for making a cup of tea? Or is it only really designed for small amounts of water to heat a cup?
> 
> If it could be used for the wife's tea it could displace the kettle and the deal would move a little closer to being sealed. However, I have strong suspicions the answer will be 'don't be silly, you'll need a kettle to make your tea!'.
> 
> Thanks.


 i've had mine for about 4 months now and i still think the hot water taken from the wand has a slightly odd taste to it and therefore use the kettle when making an americano. When i've used the hot water for tea for visitors they've noticed too. It's certainly better then when brand new, hopefully just needs a bit more water through it!


----------



## potter985

Any advice to do a second roud of capuccinos? I asume is better to wait for temperature stability 15 min ish


----------



## Jason11

potter985 said:


> Any advice to do a second roud of capuccinos? I asume is better to wait for temperature stability 15 min ish


From what I've heard you're fine if shots are pulled within 5 minutes of each other. If not then wait 15 minutes. Or I guess you could just do a cooling flush like a normal HX machine.


----------



## DavecUK

Boxerman33 said:


> i've had mine for about 4 months now and i still think the hot water taken from the wand has a slightly odd taste to it and therefore use the kettle when making an americano. When i've used the hot water for tea for visitors they've noticed too. It's certainly better then when brand new, hopefully just needs a bit more water through it!


 I put about 15-20 litres through a new espresso machine when I get them for test and can still taste it for weeks. One of the more unpleasant sides of testing.

The exception was quickmill, I'm bloody sure they put something in the water so when they shipped after a few flushes the boilers seemed pretty good.


----------



## Rhys

If you let water stand in a coffee machine for a length of time, it will start to grow bacteria which will make the water taste fusty. Heat kills off these bacteria. Flushing a boiler with water several times, or adding a bit of Sodium Carbonate - soda ash (Not Bicarb of Soda, that's completely different), letting it stand for an hour then flushing it out several times (with the heating elements off btw) should clean it out and remove any fusty tastes. I received this advice from the technical guy at KvdW, so don't know how you'd implement it on the Mara X (especially draining the boiler etc) but thought it worth a mention.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doesn't copper kill bacteria anyway?

Edit: MaraX boiler is Stainless Steel, with copper pipes.


----------



## stockportman

DavecUK said:


> I put about 15-20 litres through a new espresso machine when I get them for test and can still taste it for weeks


 How do you go about doing that @DavecUK? Do you just leave the group head on for a long time? Do you pull it all through the hot water tap? Cheers


----------



## Bowser

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Ok... did you read about boiler friendly water? What's your tap water like?
> 
> Edit: you really do need to think abou the water. You don't want to spend a considerable sum of money and treat your machine like a kitchen appliance. If you live in a hard water area, your machine will start giving you problems very soon. Just look inside your kettle and then imagine that with the water temperature 30% hotter, constantly. Imagine the state of your shiny coffee machine boilers and pipes. Descaling is not a solution, it's a remedy for something that should've been avoided in the first place.
> 
> Also, you'll need to keep the machine well maintained. There's a maintenance regime, cleaning shower screen, backflushing and lubricating the group periodically. It all becomes second nature, but you mustn't overlook it.
> 
> I'm not trying to put you off. But I want to make sure you understand this is not something (not exclusively the MaraX, but any prosumer coffee machine really) you just put in the kitchen and make coffee with it when you fancy. Well, you can, but won't last long. Treat it more like a car rather than a washing machine.
> 
> Ps: which grinder are you thinking?


Thanks @MediumRoastSteam ;

I've done a bit of research, but appreciate the challenge as you've made me question myself. We live in Bristol which is definitely a hard water area, Bristol Water site says 235mg/l CaCO3.

My understanding from a James Hoffmann video I watched on filter jug comparisons was that the Brita filter jug took out sufficient hardness to make them suitable for espresso machines, but you have me thinking now, so will go back and check. Again my understanding is we're aiming for 35-85mg/l, which again I'll go back and check all numbers.

I have a Comandante C40 hand grinder which I currently use with a moka pot. Love the look of the Niche, but again it's work surface space is at a premium.


----------



## tj893

Bowser said:


> Thanks @MediumRoastSteam ;
> 
> I've done a bit of research, but appreciate the challenge as you've made me question myself. We live in Bristol which is definitely a hard water area, Bristol Water site says 235mg/l CaCO3.
> 
> My understanding from a James Hoffmann video I watched on filter jug comparisons was that the Brita filter jug took out sufficient hardness to make them suitable for espresso machines, but you have me thinking now, so will go back and check. Again my understanding is we're aiming for 35-85mg/l, which again I'll go back and check all numbers.
> 
> I have a Comandante C40 hand grinder which I currently use with a moka pot. Love the look of the Niche, but again it's work surface space is at a premium.


 Just in case of use - I recently dealt with the water issue. I didn't have counter space for an Osmio and wasn't sure how well the various jugs would perform with very hard water so I fitted an undersink water cartridge with a little drinking tap at the kitchen sink. I went from carbonate hardness of 260-270ppm to around 50ppm- total cost around £150 which includes the first year of water treatment.

Someone else might want to weigh in on the max carbonate for which you could expect not to have to descale at all- I never did quite get to the bottom of this.

It won't be an option for everyone but the thread should have everything you need if you want to know more.

Regards my conclusions in the thread on the resulting slight "salty" taste of the water- I've lost interest in trying to use it as drinking water. It might have an effect on the coffee flavour but who knows - I'm enjoying the coffee so I guess I've concluded it doesn't matter. It serves it's primary purpose which is boiler friendly water.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51351-undersink-water-cartridge-install-diy-guidance-bwt/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=735828&embedComment=735828&embedDo=findComment#comment-735828


----------



## Boxerman33

i'm putting at least 3 litres of water through per day, and it's used pretty much every day. The water tastes better than it did when new but not quite 'normal' as from a kettle yet! Just have to keep on going until it does!


----------



## DavecUK

stockportman said:


> How do you go about doing that @DavecUK? Do you just leave the group head on for a long time? Do you pull it all through the hot water tap? Cheers


 Flush a fair bit through the HX in phases, so a few litres and the rest through the hot water tap using the switch of and empty service boiler, switch on and let it refill method.


----------



## stockportman

DavecUK said:


> Flush a fair bit through the HX in phases, so a few litres and the rest through the hot water tap using the switch of and empty service boiler, switch on and let it refill method.


 Thanks {scurries off to find info about the "switch off and empty, serice boiler, switch on and let it refill" method}. May have to ask you kind folks on here for some more help if this elludes me


----------



## DavecUK

stockportman said:


> Thanks {scurries off to find info about the "switch off and empty, serice boiler, switch on and let it refill" method}. May have to ask you kind folks on here for some more help if this elludes me


 You're kidding right, you have to be kidding....please be pulling my leg? 😲


----------



## stockportman

Nope - sadly not kidding - you've seen my post count. I'm a newbie - and we've all got to start somewhere. Talk to me about plenty of other topics and I can bore you to death with intricate details, but I'm pretty new in the world of coffee.

Just upgraded from a 16 year old Delonghi to a MaraX. It's amazing, and I'm loving it so far, but there's a lot to learn all at once.


----------



## Bowser

Border_all said:


> You would probably get fed up of filling the water tank for making tea and oddly it's probably a bit hot. If you can cope with that it's your machine your choice. As a person that drinks more cups of tea a day than coffee i also recommend the Osio for tea especially herbal. Make a deal for both


Thanks @Border_all ; , I did have that thought about the faff involved in filling the tank, but then I wondered if it would be hugely different to filling the kettle, albeit back to front, so pour for tea, then fill with water.

Noted on brew temp too and the potential taste issue @Boxerman33 ; mentions.

Listen, I'd gladly purchase an Osmio and in my eyes workspace is no issue at all, but there's two sides to every agreement, right?!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

stockportman said:


> Thanks {scurries off to find info about the "switch off and empty, serice boiler, switch on and let it refill" method}. May have to ask you kind folks on here for some more help if this elludes me


Let me translate this to you:

Turn machine on

Let boiler come up to temp

Turn machine off (if you don't, sensor will signal, pump will kick in and start refilling the boiler)

Open water tap (water can come out because it's under pressure, you can watch the manometer gradually moving back to zero)

Wait until no more water comes out

Close water tap, gently.

Refill tank (if not full)

Turn machine on: Pump will engage and start refilling the boiler


----------



## stockportman

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Let me translate this to you


 Superb - thanks so much. Really appreciate it! 😊


----------



## PD2020

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Let me translate this to you:
> 
> Turn machine on
> 
> Let boiler come up to temp
> 
> Turn machine off (if you don't, sensor will signal, pump will kick in and start refilling the boiler)
> 
> Open water tap
> 
> Wait until no more water comes out
> 
> Close water tap, gently.
> 
> Refill tank (if not full)
> 
> Turn machine on: Pump will engage and start refilling the boiler


 Thank you MediumRoastSteam 🙂

May I ask why water has to be heated up first?

You're right about the pump kicking in if machine not switched off. I did that today (oh, joys of being a newb ;-))


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

PD2020 said:


> Thank you MediumRoastSteam
> May I ask why water has to be heated up first?
> You're right about the pump kicking in if machine not switched off. I did that today (oh, joys of being a newb ;-))


I've edited my post and explained there.


----------



## Bowser

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Doesn't copper kill bacteria anyway?


Copper does indeed naturally kill bacteria, much like silver the metal ions break the cell membrane. However isn't one of the key design features of the MaraX the use of stainless steel over copper in order to handle the higher pressures required?


----------



## DavecUK

I sense that I may not be as patient as I was in my younger days, well last year actually


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> I sense that I may not be as patient as I was in my younger days, well last year actually


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Bowser said:


> Copper does indeed naturally kill bacteria, much like silver the metal ions break the cell membrane. However isn't one of the key design features of the MaraX the use of stainless steel over copper in order to handle the higher pressures required?


You are right! I stand corrected. 

Edited my original post to state the boiler is made of SS with copper pipes.


----------



## PD2020

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Turn machine on
> 
> Let boiler come up to temp
> 
> Turn machine off (if you don't, sensor will signal, pump will kick in and start refilling the boiler)
> 
> Open water tap (water can come out because it's under pressure, you can watch the manometer gradually moving back to zero)
> 
> Wait until no more water comes out
> 
> Close water tap, gently.
> 
> Refill tank (if not full)
> 
> Turn machine on: Pump will engage and start refilling the boiler


 After draining the steam boiler this way and refilling it with fresh Osmio water, the TDS is now just under 100. Before the draining it was 180-220 and I've been using this new MaraX only since Tuesday (mostly practising making espresso and not using steam or water taps)

It seems that the TDS increases really fast. Makes me wonder how often I should be repeating the draining procedure...


----------



## DavecUK

PD2020 said:


> After draining the steam boiler this way and refilling it with fresh Osmio water, the TDS is now just under 100. Before the draining it was 180-220 and I've been using this new MaraX only since Tuesday (mostly practising making espresso and not using steam or water taps)
> 
> It seems that the TDS increases really fast. Makes me wonder how often I should be repeating the draining procedure...


 Not very often, just refresh the water once a month and you will be good.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

PD2020 said:


> After draining the steam boiler this way and refilling it with fresh Osmio water, the TDS is now just under 100. Before the draining it was 180-220 and I've been using this new MaraX only since Tuesday (mostly practising making espresso and not using steam or water taps)
> It seems that the TDS increases really fast. Makes me wonder how often I should be repeating the draining procedure...


Make sure you measure that TDS at the same temperature, ideally at room temperature.


----------



## ebbz139

Excited to take the plunge on a Mara X as my first machine. Just waiting for a few others to join the group buy for a Osmio zero first as I don't want to use bottled water in it (environment friendly)!


----------



## Jason11

Just had an email to say Fedex have just delivered mine.


----------



## Jason11

Not a great start for a Mara X. While

doing









the initial warm up I noticed a leak from under the drip tray. On closer inspection it's leaking from underneath somewhere nearer the back of the unit and had pooled all the way to the front. Not happy !

Anyone got any ideas what's causing it. Is there a valve nearer the back that may have been left partially open ?


----------



## DavecUK

There have been instances in the USA of the brew circuit drain valve not being closed, so it might just need to be flipped closed.. You need to have a look inside and see where it's coming from. See my review and videos for how to remove the case.

The other area where very rough courier handling (again in the USA) has caused damage, is on the tank fitting, this has been fractured on a few occasions (again an easy fix). But you do have to remove the case to view these areas.


----------



## Jason11

DavecUK said:


> There have been instances in the USA of the brew circuit drain valve not being closed, so it might just need to be flipped closed.. You need to have a look inside and see where it's coming from. See my review and videos for how to remove the case.
> 
> The other area where very rough courier handling (again in the USA) has caused damage, is on the tank fitting, this has been fractured on a few occasions (again an easy fix). But you do have to remove the case to view these areas.


Thanks for the quick reply Dave. I don't mind opening it up to see if it's the valve but do you know how that may affect warranty as I only received it today and not sure if I do that it may void the warranty ?


----------



## DavecUK

Jason11 said:


> Thanks for the quick reply Dave. I don't mind opening it up to see if it's the valve but do you know how that may affect warranty as I only received it today and not sure if I do that it may void the warranty ?


 Why, it's like a dealer saying you lifted the car bonnet and looked inside and you voided your warranty. Open it look inside...besides there might be a bundle of £50 notes in there. Just make sure you watch my review videos to see exactly ho to take the case off! Cos I managed it without causing any damage  ...I love removing the case of most machines except a select few...this was not one of the select few.

Besides, you're going to have to look inside at 12 months or just under for when you do your annual inspection. First thing I do with any new Espresso machine is open it up and look inside for leaks when I first switch it on. Unless it's a La Marzocco because they never go faulty.


----------



## Jason11

DavecUK said:


> Why, it's like a dealer saying you lifted the car bonnet and looked inside and you voided your warranty.


I wouldn't expect to have to fix a brand new car from a dealer myself, would you ?


----------



## Border_all

Jason11 said:


> I wouldn't expect to have to fix a brand new car from a dealer myself, would you ?


 No but i would check the oil if it was leaking lol


----------



## Jason11

Border_all said:


> No but i would check the oil if it was leaking lol


And then take it back or fix it yourself ?


----------



## Border_all

Jason11 said:


> And then take it back or fix it yourself ?


 If the oil filler cap was not on properly fix it myself if it was not obvious send it back


----------



## Rob Barker

Out of curiousity, what was the pressure reading you were getting out the box? Mine looks to be about 10 bar consistently and dumps a lot more water out the valve when I close off the lever in comparison to yours Dave.


----------



## Burnzy

Jason11 said:


> Not a great start for a Mara X. While
> 
> doing
> 
> the initial warm up I noticed a leak from under the drip tray. On closer inspection it's leaking from underneath somewhere nearer the back of the unit and had pooled all the way to the front. Not happy !
> 
> Anyone got any ideas what's causing it. Is there a valve nearer the back that may have been left partially open ?


 Aw no, sorry to see, hopefully you can fix it. Mines got to go back as well, no leaks. Just takes ages to heat up. I too am pretty peed off atm


----------



## Jason11

I've found where the leak is. It's the connection to the hot water


----------



## Border_all

Jason11 said:


> I've found where the leak is. It's the connection to the hot water


 So now you know what the cause is. 2 choices ask for a refund or nip the joint a fraction though it may need think it's called ptfe plumbers tape

If i liked the machine i would probably try do it myself as probably the heating up caused expansion thus the leak


----------



## DavecUK

Jason11 said:


> I wouldn't expect to have to fix a brand new car from a dealer myself, would you ?


 Jason, I was just trying to help.....I assumed that's why you were posting? If you don't want to do as I suggested, simply send it back to the dealer but there's no point making statements as quoted is there.

I'll leave the thread now....good luck with it.


----------



## Bowser

DavecUK said:


> You're going to need a thicker skin than that on here, especially if you misunderstand posts.


Loves it . I thought this forum would be all polite coffee chat, but it's much more fun!


----------



## Bowser

Jason11 said:


> Not a great start for a Mara X. While
> doing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the initial warm up I noticed a leak from under the drip tray. On closer inspection it's leaking from underneath somewhere nearer the back of the unit and had pooled all the way to the front. Not happy !
> 
> Anyone got any ideas what's causing it. Is there a valve nearer the back that may have been left partially open ?


That must be very frustrating, I'd be pretty disappointed if that happened to me.

Whether you tackle it yourself or otherwise it's probably best to get that line of communication going with the seller.

The benefit of fixing it yourself is that you are well and truly on your journey with that machine!

Very bizarre link, however I'll throw it out there, I was listening to a podcast called Squeezing The Orange last week with an episode called 'Does Personally Customising Products Improve Performance?'. Turns out it does. Well worth a listen! Easily searchable on Google.


----------



## Bicky

That's such a shame you guys are having issues, hope you get it sorted quickly. That leak in particular seems like it could be a really simple fix, how frustrating. Do let us know the outcome, it would be interesting to know how it was resolved in the end!


----------



## Jason11

Bicky said:


> That's such a shame you guys are having issues, hope you get it sorted quickly. That leak in particular seems like it _could _be a really simple fix, how frustrating. Do let us know the outcome, it would be interesting to know how it was resolved in the end!


I've spoken with the supplier and they've given me the go ahead to try and tighten the fitting a bit without affecting warranty so will see if that sorts it a bit later.


----------



## DavecUK

Jason11 said:


> I've spoken with the supplier and they've given me the go ahead to try and tighten the fitting a bit without affecting warranty so will see if that sorts it a bit later.


 Just use the tap tap tap method. Well fitting open ended spanner on nut, then rap the end of the spanner with another slightly heavier one to shock it round (DONT apply torque to do it, it might work but it's not the best way). Also no PTFE tape those type of fittings don't use it.

So if you had a set like in the link below, you would get the 13mm on it and rap the other end it with the 17mm until it seals. A few minutes work., first do it cold and then later when it warms up if it leaks give it a few more raps.

Try not to use an adjustable spanner.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hilka-16600802-Ended-Spanner-Metric/dp/B00KESOWXE/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=open+ended+spanner+set&qid=1593616507&sr=8-5

P.S. Put a towel around the machine so if you miss or slip you won't scratch anything.


----------



## Bowser

I've got the green light so all set to place an order. Super excited.

Of those that have the unit, how many people have it located below wall cupboards? How much clearance do you have an how do you find filling the water tank? The negotiated position is below a wall unit and has 7cm clearance which really doesn't feel like a lot. From the reviews it seems like it's a heavy old unit so once planted I suspect I won't be sliding it about much, or will I?

Any thoughts/thinking would be appreciated. 👍


----------



## Bicky

Bowser said:


> I've got the green light so all set to place an order. Super excited.
> 
> Of those that have the unit, how many people have it located below wall cupboards? How much clearance do you have an how do you find filling the water tank? The negotiated position is below a wall unit and has 7cm clearance which really doesn't feel like a lot. From the reviews it seems like it's a heavy old unit so once planted I suspect I won't be sliding it about much, or will I?
> 
> Any thoughts/thinking would be appreciated. 👍


 Brilliant! A few of us have put felt pads on the feet, works a treat, can slid it in and out no problem. It is solid, you wouldn't want to be lifting it in and out every day!


----------



## Bicky

Or get something like this instead! https://www.amazon.co.uk/bar-drinkstuff-Funnel-American-Parties/dp/B00658LUDM 😄


----------



## Jason11

Unfortunately the fitting won't do up, it just spins round without seeming to get any tighter so I'm guessing it's a bad thread on the fitting.


----------



## Border_all

Jason11 said:


> Unfortunately the fitting won't do up, it just spins round without seeming to get any tighter so I'm guessing it's a bad thread on the fitting.


 Sorry hearing this Jason looks like you require a return i know i would be gutted


----------



## Jason11

Border_all said:


> Sorry hearing this Jason looks like you require a return i know i would be gutted


Quite a big disappointed if I'm honest. At least I've got Latte with my trusty Classic (with slowly steamed milk) until it's sorted.


----------



## robti

Pity the retailer wouldn't just swap it out drop off a replacement and take yours aeay


----------



## DavecUK

robti said:


> Pity the retailer wouldn't just swap it out drop off a replacement and take yours aeay


 Unfortunately those who perpetrate fraud ruin it all for the rest of us...otherwise that would be a wonderful state of affairs.


----------



## efrain-PR

Bowser said:


> I've got the green light so all set to place an order. Super excited.
> 
> Of those that have the unit, how many people have it located below wall cupboards? How much clearance do you have an how do you find filling the water tank? The negotiated position is below a wall unit and has 7cm clearance which really doesn't feel like a lot. From the reviews it seems like it's a heavy old unit so once planted I suspect I won't be sliding it about much, or will I?
> 
> Any thoughts/thinking would be appreciated. 👍


 I used felt pads and I also bought an offset funnel.

Basic Oil Funnel - Engine, Fluids, Gasoline, Liquids, Kerosene Funnel with Flexible Spout Extension https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RTLUPVC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_Fsm.Eb8JV2XQT

Works great.


----------



## Bowser

Thanks @efrain-PR and @Bicky, sounds like a good plan 👍


----------



## ebbz139

Was about to purchase the Mara x tonight from BB then saw it for £899 with free delivery Here . Did anyone else order theirs from espresso underground?

thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

ebbz139 said:


> Was about to purchase the Mara x tonight from BB then saw it for £899 with free delivery Here . Did anyone else order theirs from espresso underground?
> 
> thanks


You are brave. If it goes wrong, will you be supported? For £50...


----------



## ebbz139

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You are brave. If it goes wrong, will you be supported? For £50...


 Very true, will most likely go ahead with BB.


----------



## Border_all

ebbz139 said:


> Very true, will most likely go ahead with BB.


 I know i would 😁


----------



## DavecUK

ebbz139 said:


> Very true, will most likely go ahead with BB.


 The other thing to consider is BB *2 year fully transferable warranty *and I believe you can pay a little more for a 3rd year...not sure about the last bit.

In fact this is Espresso undergrounds stated warranty lifted from their web site! I highlighted the relevant bit. I didn't see how long the warranty was, so I would assume only a year to be on the safe side. In truth I don't quite understand what the statement I've highlighted truly means. Caveat emptor, I guess.

ESPRESSO UNDERGROUND and Products purchased through lelit-uk.co.uk, GRINDER WARRANTY, All COFFEE MACHINE WARRANTIES.

· All grinders sold come with 12-month a return to base parts and labour warranty. If you encounter a faulty/damaged grinder please email the details with a photograph, if possible, to [email protected]

· The grinder warranty does not include misuse. Please ensure prior to use that the grinder blades are not touching and that they are adjusted for courser coffee. Please note the MC2 Grinders are recommended for domestic use only.

· If the grinder can be repaired by supplying replacement part(s) we will charge for the required items and issue a credit upon receipt of the faulty parts.

· Should a grinder need to be returned to us for repair please request an RMA (Returns Number) by logging into your account at www.espressounderground.co.uk  and selecting "returns request" option and follow the on screen instructions.

· Please note grinder repairs can take up to 2 weeks and carriage to us will need to be paid by you. In the rare situation that upon inspection the product is found to be beyond economical repair then we will replace at our cost.

· Commercial Coffee machine can be either parts only warranty or a full parts and labour warranty, the type of warranty is agreed at the time of purchase
*Domestic coffee machines are all back to base parts only warranty unless agreed at the time of sale, a full warranty can be provided at extra cost. All warranty repair machines must be returned in original packaging*


----------



## Jason11

DavecUK said:


> The other thing to consider is BB *2 year fully transferable warranty *and I believe you can pay a little more for a 3rd year...not sure about the last bit.


It was an option for just under £50 for the 3rd years warranty on a Mara X from BB on the purchase I made on Saturday.


----------



## ebbz139

Cheers all, ordered from BB this evening. Looking forward to using this beast as my first machine!


----------



## Rira

Bowser said:


> Of those that have the unit, how many people have it located below wall cupboards? How much clearance do you have an how do you find filling the water tank? The negotiated position is below a wall unit and has 7cm clearance which really doesn't feel like a lot.
> 
> Any thoughts/thinking would be appreciated. 👍


 I have similar clearance, I top up the tank from a bottle easily.


----------



## gilesw

So you guys spooked me and I bought a cafelat robot because I didn't want to be constantly doing maintenance on a coffee machine and while it makes great coffee I'm not very anal and I'm afraid the human is the error. I had a gaggia classic selecta deluxe before that didn't have any backflushing so it was a mission to clean every month. I read on this thread you were all listing a shit tonne of maintenance like lubing up levers .etc. Can someone explain what the bare minimum of maintenance is? There has to be somewhere in between because my old work had an Italian rocket coffee machine that was hammered everyday and we only serviced it a couple times a year but it made great coffee. I'm going to be using the marax once a day if that. Or is it like cars where not using it enough causes problems?


----------



## Rob1

gilesw said:


> So you guys spooked me and I bought a cafelat robot because I didn't want to be constantly doing maintenance on a coffee machine and while it makes great coffee I'm not very anal and I'm afraid the human is the error. I had a gaggia classic selecta deluxe before that didn't have any backflushing so it was a mission to clean every month. I read on this thread you were all listing a shit tonne of maintenance like lubing up levers .etc. Can someone explain what the bare minimum of maintenance is? There has to be somewhere in between because my old work had an Italian rocket coffee machine that was hammered everyday and we only serviced it a couple times a year but it made great coffee. I'm going to be using the marax once a day if that. Or is it like cars where not using it enough causes problems?


 Minimum maintenance and good coffee or minimum maintenance?

Backflushing, dropping the shower screen and cleaning regularly is a must and only takes a few minutes. By regularly I mean once every week. If you're only making one a day if that then you might get away with longer but at least once a month. You should really drop the shower screen and give it a wipe down and rinse quite often, it does only take a minute.

After you backflush you should lubricate the cam lever and pins to prevent premature wear.

It's not really a big deal. It's going to take a few minutes a week (less than 10 probably).

If the old rocket you were using at work was really used as you describe then I worry for your taste buds. Without regular backflushing it would have been caked inside the group with old rancid coffee grounds and oils that got past the screen and stuck there. Somebody must have been cleaning it or the coffee would have been gross.

If you want absolute minimum maintenance don't bother backflushing regularly just drop the screen and wipe/rinse away oils and coffee. The taste will probably be harmed though...I've never tried it.

You could look at solenoid operated groups. Everything but lubing the lever would apply though.


----------



## Rob Barker

gilesw said:


> So you guys spooked me and I bought a cafelat robot because I didn't want to be constantly doing maintenance on a coffee machine and while it makes great coffee I'm not very anal and I'm afraid the human is the error. I had a gaggia classic selecta deluxe before that didn't have any backflushing so it was a mission to clean every month. I read on this thread you were all listing a shit tonne of maintenance like lubing up levers .etc. Can someone explain what the bare minimum of maintenance is? There has to be somewhere in between because my old work had an Italian rocket coffee machine that was hammered everyday and we only serviced it a couple times a year but it made great coffee. I'm going to be using the marax once a day if that. Or is it like cars where not using it enough causes problems?


 I've had the cafelat robot, I moved to the gaggia classic 2019 and just recently took delivery of the mara X. My acceleration from liking espresso to loving it and wanting to know more was Tesla Roadster level. For the maintenance, it's not that difficult and I think well worth the effort. If you look on YouTube there are videos of how to maintain the group head and it's not complex. The thing to remember on those videos that are maybe 15 minutes long, they're taking the time to explain what you should do and why, once you get in to the routine and it becomes second nature, you'll be able to sort out the regular maintenance in no time whatsoever. I don't know about the yearly checks yet, not got there, but once I've got the weekly/monthly ones in, I'm sure it'll seem less effort and I bet, based on the similar trajectory you appear to have to me, you'll be interested in the inner workings of the system too and it will be more a discovery than a chore.


----------



## robti

Jason11 said:


> It was an option for just under £50 for the 3rd years warranty on a Mara X from BB on the purchase I made on Saturday.


 Who took the extra years warranty out and why ?


----------



## Jason11

robti said:


> Who took the extra years warranty out and why ?


I didn't. I figured as with most mechanical/electrical things if there's an underlying issue it would usually be evident straight away or very quickly and as long as correct maintenance guidelines are followed and especially for a coffee machine good water used it would be unlikely issues would develop in that 2-3 year window so not worth the additional cost IMO.


----------



## robti

Jason11 said:


> I didn't. I figured as with most mechanical/electrical things if there's an underlying issue it would usually be evident straight away or very quickly and as long as correct maintenance guidelines are followed and especially for a coffee machine good water used it would be unlikely issues would develop in that 2-3 year window so not worth the additional cost IMO.


 Exactly the same reasons with me also I thought that is anything did fail in a few years then the spares should be cheap enough and wildly available by then.


----------



## Bicky

I've found the daily/weekly maintenance to be really quick and easy, it's just become part of my routine.

I will however admit to putting off a chemical backflush because the thought of taking tools to my machine to lubricate is scaring the shit out of me 😅


----------



## DavecUK

Rob Barker said:


> I've had the cafelat robot, I moved to the gaggia classic 2019 and just recently took delivery of the mara X. My acceleration from liking espresso to loving it and wanting to know more was Tesla Roadster level. For the maintenance, it's not that difficult and I think well worth the effort. If you look on YouTube there are videos of how to maintain the group head and it's not complex. The thing to remember on those videos that are maybe 15 minutes long, they're taking the time to explain what you should do and why, once you get in to the routine and it becomes second nature, you'll be able to sort out the regular maintenance in no time whatsoever. I don't know about the yearly checks yet, not got there, but once I've got the weekly/monthly ones in, I'm sure it'll seem less effort and I bet, based on the similar trajectory you appear to have to me, you'll be interested in the inner workings of the system too and it will be more a discovery than a chore.


 I think this is great advice and good points made. In my "morning coffee" playlist, I made a video of how to drop an E61 shower screen and clean, it and behind it (dispersion disk group etc..). My whole unedited video is 3m 29 seconds. If I wasn't explaining anything, it would have taken me less than 60 seconds

*Here are some typical maintenance times for an E61 group.*



every 2 days - Dropping shower screen cleaning - 60s


every day Cleaning Portafilter (spouted) - 40s


every day Cleaning Portafilter Naked - 10s


weekly Cleaning E61 Machine (to keep it nice and shiny (including washing drip dray) - 5m


twice weekly Washing drip tray (1m)


Monthly exchange service boiler water (5m, this includes warm up time if service boiler is off, otherwise 60s)


Every 1 or 2 months backflush with cleaner (do it correctly, there is a correct way most people don't do it right). Then remove cam dry and lube cam, pins and spindle - 8m (time includes backflushing and removal and manual cleaning of shower screen).


Annual Check - Involves removing case and warming machine up from cold whilst inspecting - 30m (take photos, use a torch, clean inside, replace any broken cable ties)

So on a weekly basis that's just under 7 minutes to keep your machine looking, tasting and working great, or 12m if you clean entire machine twice per week to keep it in showroom condition. If you can't devote that amount of time....then yes, you shouldn't buy an espresso machine.

P.S. A solenoid operated E61 means no lubrication and backflush with cleaner as often as you want.

P.P.S. I have not included regular maintenance/replacement parts times as they come around every 3-10 years or so for various bits on the machine.


----------



## siliconslave

dropping the shower screen is super easy - i've been doing it daily to give it a quick wash along with the PF (although do need a little brush for the spout). Only thing is doing it when its cooled down in the evening.

Like the idea of felt pads on the feet - might have a look at that.


----------



## Rob Barker

DavecUK said:


> I think this is great advice and good points made. In my "morning coffee" playlist, I made a video of how to drop an E61 shower screen and clean, it and behind it (dispersion disk group etc..). My whole unedited video is 3m 29 seconds. If I wasn't explaining anything, it would have taken me less than 60 seconds
> 
> *Here are some typical maintenance times for an E61 group.*
> 
> 
> 
> every 2 days - Dropping shower screen cleaning - 60s
> 
> 
> every day Cleaning Portafilter (spouted) - 40s
> 
> 
> every day Cleaning Portafilter Naked - 10s
> 
> 
> weekly Cleaning E61 Machine (to keep it nice and shiny (including washing drip dray) - 5m
> 
> 
> twice weekly Washing drip tray (1m)
> 
> 
> Monthly exchange service boiler water (5m, this includes warm up time if service boiler is off, otherwise 60s)
> 
> 
> Every 1 or 2 months backflush with cleaner (do it correctly, there is a correct way most people don't do it right). Then remove cam dry and lube cam, pins and spindle - 8m (time includes backflushing and removal and manual cleaning of shower screen).
> 
> 
> Annual Check - Involves removing case and warming machine up from cold whilst inspecting - 30m (take photos, use a torch, clean inside, replace any broken cable ties)
> 
> So on a weekly basis that's just under 7 minutes to keep your machine looking, tasting and working great, or 12m if you clean entire machine twice per week to keep it in showroom condition. If you can't devote that amount of time....then yes, you shouldn't buy an espresso machine.
> 
> P.S. A solenoid operated E61 means no lubrication and backflush with cleaner as often as you want.
> 
> P.P.S. I have not included regular maintenance/replacement parts times as they come around every 3-10 years or so for various bits on the machine.


 It was actually your video of the dropping shower screen I learnt from and do it in a minute max including the cleaning.

The cam lube etc. Was a 15 minute video, but agree, it's quick once you know what you're doing.

One thing I can't work out is if my softened water (Harvey's machine) is better for my machine than mains tap going through an installed drinking filter. More specifically will the salt used to soften water damage the boiler. I saw you use a reverse osmosis setup.

I hope just to use the softened water as that means I'm all set and won't get scale.


----------



## DavecUK

Rob Barker said:


> One thing I can't work out is if my softened water (Harvey's machine) is better for my machine than mains tap going through an installed drinking filter. More specifically will the salt used to soften water damage the boiler. I saw you use a reverse osmosis setup.
> 
> I hope just to use the softened water as that means I'm all set and won't get scale.


 There shouldn't really be any salt in the water as the twintank Harvey's flushes the resin after regeneration. So I don't believe it will cause problems. I have the same softener.

That said, if the water is very hard the calcium is replaced by sodium e. g sodium carbonate. Which for people on a low sodium diet is a concern (probably groundless) but people hear sodium and equate it with salt.

I pass softened water through an Osmio otherwise TDS of sodium carbonate so hi, not always best for coffee.

Don't know about drinking filter you have, some are OK, some not.


----------



## Rob Barker

DavecUK said:


> There shouldn't really be any salt in the water as the twintank Harvey's flushes the resin after regeneration. So I don't believe it will cause problems. I have the same softener.
> 
> That said, if the water is very hard the calcium is replaced by sodium e. g sodium carbonate. Which for people on a low sodium diet is a concern (probably groundless) but people hear sodium and equate it with salt.
> 
> I pass softened water through an Osmio otherwise TDS of sodium carbonate so hi, not always best for coffee.
> 
> Don't know about drinking filter you have, some are OK, some not.


 Thanks Dave, much appreciated, I will stick with the water, the coffee that comes out is good so I have no need to change things at the moment (I almost guarantee in 6 months I will change that opinion and do something else).


----------



## gilesw

"P.S. A solenoid operated E61 means no lubrication and backflush with cleaner as often as you want." are you saying that the marax doesn't have this type of e61 group head? It sounds like if this thing is easy I want a coffee machine with an electric controlled group head.


----------



## Border_all

gilesw said:


> "P.S. A solenoid operated E61 means no lubrication and backflush with cleaner as often as you want." are you saying that the marax doesn't have this type of e61 group head? It sounds like if this thing is easy I want a coffee machine with an electric controlled group head.


 Hi. Think the answer is yes it is electronic but check the video from @DavecUK

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/lelit-marax-review-in-progress/

really informative watching 👍


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

gilesw said:


> "P.S. A solenoid operated E61 means no lubrication and backflush with cleaner as often as you want." are you saying that the marax doesn't have this type of e61 group head? It sounds like if this thing is easy I want a coffee machine with an electric controlled group head.


Take a look at the ACS Minima.

The MaraX features a fully mechanical E61 group.


----------



## 2953

My replacement water tank arrived today (from Espresso Underground who were more helpful than others). £61 lighter though.

That first coffee though tasted real good


----------



## eduk

New Mara X owner here with (hopefully) a quick question.

I seem to be getting an excessive amount of water in the drip tray. The sequence this morning was:



Machine comes on at 06:30 via a hive socket.


Was a bit later up, so took it out of standby at about 07:15


Pulled a double shot and steamed one latte's worth of milk (with usual steam purging)


Took it back out of standby about 09:00


Emptied the drip tray, which had 300ml+ in it (not been watching it, so not sure whether it's from the bottom of the grouphead or from the back of the drip tray)


I haven't noticed this much in the tray before; any ideas why this might be?

Cheers

Ed


----------



## DavecUK

When you flush your group down to clean and brush it after a shot, what do you flush it into?


----------



## eduk

DavecUK said:


> When you flush your group down to clean and brush it after a shot, what do you flush it into?


 Haven't been doing that after every shot, just at the end of the morning clean (although will be doing now!)


----------



## Boxerman33

eduk said:


> New Mara X owner here with (hopefully) a quick question.
> 
> I seem to be getting an excessive amount of water in the drip tray. The sequence this morning was:
> 
> 
> 
> Machine comes on at 06:30 via a hive socket.
> 
> 
> Was a bit later up, so took it out of standby at about 07:15
> 
> 
> Pulled a double shot and steamed one latte's worth of milk (with usual steam purging)
> 
> 
> Took it back out of standby about 09:00
> 
> 
> Emptied the drip tray, which had 300ml+ in it (not been watching it, so not sure whether it's from the bottom of the grouphead or from the back of the drip tray)
> 
> 
> I haven't noticed this much in the tray before; any ideas why this might be?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Ed


 sounds fairly usual to me, i flush mine into a plastic cup after every shot but generally each day the drip tray is pretty full when emptying. Mine is always in standby mode though and i just flick the smartplug off and on from my phone a few mins before my next cuppa to make sure the machine is ready! I think this is why my drip tray is perhaps more full! Not a problem though!


----------



## robti

I get a full drip tray after 4 flat whites and 2 back flushes, at the start I was surprised by this coming from a classic but now it is just part of the routine


----------



## DavecUK

eduk said:


> Haven't been doing that after every shot, just at the end of the morning clean (although will be doing now!)


 What do you flush it into?


----------



## paul87

eduk said:


> New Mara X owner here with (hopefully) a quick question.
> 
> I seem to be getting an excessive amount of water in the drip tray. The sequence this morning was:
> 
> 
> 
> Machine comes on at 06:30 via a hive socket.
> 
> 
> Was a bit later up, so took it out of standby at about 07:15
> 
> 
> Pulled a double shot and steamed one latte's worth of milk (with usual steam purging)
> 
> 
> Took it back out of standby about 09:00
> 
> 
> Emptied the drip tray, which had 300ml+ in it (not been watching it, so not sure whether it's from the bottom of the grouphead or from the back of the drip tray)
> 
> 
> I haven't noticed this much in the tray before; any ideas why this might be?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Ed


 I've had mine for a week now, and also finding it uses a hell of a lot of water compared to my old Classic.

I make 2 shots a day - on maybe 2 days this week i've made 3 . and normally steam a little bit of milk.

I've put 3 bottles of ashbeck in this week!

I've also noticed my brew pressure is just above 10 when pulling shots - do I need to turn the OPV - will this affect my water usage?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

paul87 said:


> I've had mine for a week now, and also finding it uses a hell of a lot of water compared to my old Classic.
> 
> I make 2 shots a day - on maybe 2 days this week i've made 3 . and normally steam a little bit of milk.
> 
> I've put 3 bottles of ashbeck in this week!
> 
> I've also noticed my brew pressure is just above 10 when pulling shots - do I need to turn the OPV - will this affect my water usage?


 3 bottles of Ashbeck, you mean, 6 litres? Does that include the initial charge (to fill the boiler?)

Do a test:

- Before going to bed, empty drip tray;

- Tomorrow morning, make coffee as usual;

- Before going to bed, empty the drip tray into a container and measure. How much water have you got? How many coffees did you make?

There are talks about this in this thread already. The E61 will vent water after the shot into the drip tray. and also dumps excess water from the OPV into the drip tray (your Classic would do that too, but would dump it back into the tank).

Edit: Removed from above: "This machine also periodically empties the the thermosyphon to keep temperature stable," - I've got too much in my head. I actually don't quite remember whether this is a feature of this machine or not. 😞


----------



## paul87

MediumRoastSteam said:


> 3 bottles of Ashbeck, you mean, 6 litres? Does that include the initial charge (to fill the boiler?)
> 
> Do a test:
> 
> - Before going to bed, empty drip tray;
> 
> - Tomorrow morning, make coffee as usual;
> 
> - Before going to bed, empty the drip tray into a container and measure. How much water have you got? How many coffees did you make?
> 
> There are talks about this in this thread already. The E61 will vent water after the shot into the drip tray. This machine also periodically empties the the thermosyphon to keep temperature stable, and also dumps excess water from the OPV into the drip tray (your Classic would do that too, but would dump it back into the tank).


 Yes - 6 litres - and does include the boiler fill.

I'll try to more accurately measure over the weekend.

Is my just over 10bar brew pressure something that needs adjusting or not something to worry about?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

paul87 said:


> Yes - 6 litres - and does include the boiler fill.
> 
> I'll try to more accurately measure over the weekend.
> 
> Is my just over 10bar brew pressure something that needs adjusting or not something to worry about?


 You can, it's not hard. But... Will it make much of a difference... I doubt it. Get used to your new machine, and then tweak if you really need/want to.


----------



## paul87

OK - thank you.

Its making lovely coffee - just need to measure / track this water consumption.


----------



## Border_all

paul87 said:


> OK - thank you.
> 
> Its making lovely coffee - just need to measure / track this water consumption.
> View attachment 42262


 Maybe a little early but the Osmio filter often available in group buys is another possible solution. Bit expensive at first but it's amazing how fast once you got one you would miss it

Glad your enjoying the MaraX 👍


----------



## Rob Barker

paul87 said:


> Yes - 6 litres - and does include the boiler fill.
> 
> I'll try to more accurately measure over the weekend.
> 
> Is my just over 10bar brew pressure something that needs adjusting or not something to worry about?


 If you bought it from Bella barista you're fine. I contacted them about the same thing. My box was open so I suspected it, but they confirmed, they check the pressure using a portafilter. The pressure gauge on the machine is reading between the pump and solenoid


----------



## eduk

DavecUK said:


> What do you flush it into?


 Drip tray


----------



## DavecUK

eduk said:


> Drip tray


 Try flushing into something like this as you brush the group clean... You can dip the brush in the water and get the group nice and clean and you only have to flush a little cleaning. Doesn't fill up the drip tray either and you can rinse the portafilter with the water before the final rinse under the kitchen sink tap


----------



## eduk

DavecUK said:


> Try flushing into something like this as you brush the group clean... You can dip the brush in the water and get the group nice and clean and you only have to flush a little cleaning. Doesn't fill up the drip tray either and you can rinse the portafilter with the water before the final rinse under the kitchen sink tap


 Thanks Dave - also finding your youtube clips very useful.

My main concern was the amount of water in the drip tray, before any grouphead flushing/cleaning, but this seems fairly common


----------



## DavecUK

eduk said:


> Thanks Dave - also finding your youtube clips very useful.
> 
> My main concern was the amount of water in the drip tray, before any grouphead flushing/cleaning, but this seems fairly common


 It's not completely ideal but they found the filter cartridge lifting off if they tried to vent back to the tank. *Fortunately it's not very much and the benefits far outweigh the hassle.*

I will probably mod mine to flow back to the tank and will video it if I do. I have a prototype feature to fit to it anyway when I get time, so may well deal with it then. If I do I'll video what I did. Of course, I DONT use the filter cartridges, so no problem, but after the mod I won't be able to.

There is another mod, but to do it I have to buy a few cheap bits and bobs and modify the tank filter system plumbing. Then it would work and fix the issue of the filter lifting....but I'd rather Lelit do that at some time in the future perhaps. As always a machine is never finished, there is always more you can do and if they kept on with changes it would never get launched. As it was it took around a year from production prototype (I had one in May 2019) to finished well working machine. So it's not like they rushed it 

P.S. The prototype didn't use a bottom feed tank it used a top loader with pipes in it. So I never knew about the tank change until I got the production machine.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> As always a machine is never finished, there is always more you can do and if they kept on with changes it would never get launched.


The same can be said for other things... software anyone?


----------



## Doram

DavecUK said:


> It's not completely ideal but they found the filter cartridge lifting off if they tried to vent back to the tank. *Fortunately it's not very much and the benefits far outweigh the hassle.*
> 
> I will probably mod mine to flow back to the tank and will video it if I do. I have a prototype feature to fit to it anyway when I get time, so may well deal with it then. If I do I'll video what I did. Of course, I DONT use the filter cartridges, so no problem, but after the mod I won't be able to.


 I would love to learn how to do this mode Dave. I guess those who will want to do it because they invest in the water will not need the filter. Is that correct?
When you say the benefits outweigh the hassle - are there benefits other than the option for an in-tank filter, that will be lost if the water return to the tank?


----------



## DavecUK

If you use good water you won't need the filter.

The benefits are simply no flushing, good temps, very quiet and excellent shots.


----------



## Doram

DavecUK said:


> The benefits are simply no flushing, good temps, very quiet and excellent shots.


 Oh, so you mean the benefits of the machine itself. Got it. (I thought you meant that there are benefits to dumping the water to the tray). 
How hard is the mod to return the water back to the tank? It seems that many will be interested if this it's simple enough.


----------



## DavecUK

Not too hard, I'm just lazy.


----------



## cengland117

For anyone that is interested in smaller doses, I've recently put a 15g VST in my MaraX and the results have been delicious. The grind does need to go finer (which may be limited by the standard of grinder) but after reading how tricky the 15g basket can be, I've been pleasantly surprised with how well it performs. There is noticeably less channeling than on the IMS 16-20 I had in before. Maybe the slow pre infusion and ramp up is well suited?


----------



## paul87

paul87 said:


> OK - thank you.
> 
> Its making lovely coffee - just need to measure / track this water consumption.
> View attachment 42262


 So, made 2 shots this morning and steamed about 200ml milk.

165ml in the drip tray.

So, after 11 shots the whole boiler is empty?

Is that in line with what others are experiencing?


----------



## Bowser

paul87 said:


> So, made 2 shots this morning and steamed about 200ml milk.
> 
> 165ml in the drip tray.
> 
> So, after 11 shots the whole boiler is empty?
> 
> Is that in line with what others are experiencing?


 And where does it actually come from??? Is there drip tray water generated during heat up? Does the MaraX discharge more to the tray when in standby? I'm confused 😁

The 165ml you reference @paul87, is that all related to shots? Any of it from your own flush?

Mine's due tomorrow so keen to get an idea of what to expect. First espresso machine so still so much learning.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Bowser said:


> And where does it actually come from??? Is there drip tray water generated during heat up? Does the MaraX discharge more to the tray when in standby? I'm confused  The 165ml you reference @paul87, is that all related to shots? Any of it from your own flush? Mine's due tomorrow so keen to get an idea of what to expect. First espresso machine so still so much learning.


There's talk about water usage in this thread, around post #700.

Edit: Don't get too hung up to that, however. As mentioned above, there are many reasons why water end up in the drip tray: OPV venting, vacum breaker venting, E61 venting. Ages ago, I did some measurements and concluded that a double shot for me, on my dual boiler machine, e61, would consume on average 110ml of water. That excludes any flushes, rinsing of the group, steam wand purge, OPV Venting. For instance, at the time I measured the E61 venting valve output. For me, it was 43ml. YMMV.

Dave do talk about this in the review of the MaraX, and this is also discussed earlier on in this thread. Water usage should not come as a surprise if you have read the review and/or this thread.


----------



## robti

paul87 said:


> So, made 2 shots this morning and steamed about 200ml milk.
> 
> 165ml in the drip tray.
> 
> So, after 11 shots the whole boiler is empty?
> 
> Is that in line with what others are experiencing?


 5-6 flat whites and 2 back flushes and my tank is nearly empty and drip tray quite full, but just get into a routine of filling and emptying every use


----------



## Bowser

MediumRoastSteam said:


> There's talk about water usage in this thread, around post #700. Edit: Don't get too hung up to that, however. As mentioned above, there are many reasons why water end up in the drip tray: OPV venting, vacum breaker venting, E61 venting. Ages ago, I did some measurements and concluded that a double shot for me, on my dual boiler machine, e61, would consume on average 110ml of water. That excludes any flushes, rinsing of the group, steam wand purge, OPV Venting. For instance, at the time I measured the E61 venting valve output. For me, it was 43ml. YMMV.
> 
> Dave do talk about this in the review of the MaraX, and this is also discussed earlier on in this thread. Water usage should not come as a surprise if you have read the review and/or this thread.


Thanks. Not surprised, just curious.

And thanks for the pointer on the above water usage thread. I'll take a read.


----------



## ebbz139

Hey all,

took delivery of the Mara X on Friday and have been trying to pull a good shot all weekend with little success. I bought a kg of crappy beans just so I could play around and experience the process but I do have some good beans that I also used with the same results.

From what I can work out I am not getting enough pressure in the shot before it starts pouring currently always pours at < 2, which I though meant more coffee or a finer grind. Here is what I am doing, and would appreciate any tips!

1. Grinding beans as fine as seems possible (As I am trying to reduce the flow and does not seem to grind if I turn the dial even finer) Eureka Zenith))

2. 18g out into the standard basket that came with the portafilter, tamping put in machine and go Temp I.

3. hits 40g out after about 18seconds, pressure is less than 2 when it starts pouring.

4. does not taste good, little crema.

Cheers


----------



## siliconslave

that does sound like its not fine enough, or the pressures too high, whats the pressure gauge showing during a shot?

I was actually about to ask what people are aiming for time wise on their X - as it has quite a slow ramp are you going for a longer time on the shot, 30, 35, 40?


----------



## robti

18 in 36 out in around 35-38 seconds, I also had to grind finer than for my classic machine ramps up to 10 in roughly 10 seconds


----------



## Rob Barker

Ah well, all was going so well until I noticed this

/monthly_2020_07/VID_20200706_085843_01.mp4.0b319507164a2f8f0e37d3d162d95822.mp4" type="video/mp4">
View attachment VID_20200706_085843_01.mp4


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

ebbz139 said:


> Hey all,
> took delivery of the Mara X on Friday and have been trying to pull a good shot all weekend with little success. I bought a kg of crappy beans just so I could play around and experience the process but I do have some good beans that I also used with the same results.
> From what I can work out I am not getting enough pressure in the shot before it starts pouring currently always pours at 1. Grinding beans as fine as seems possible (As I am trying to reduce the flow and does not seem to grind if I turn the dial even finer) Eureka Zenith))
> 2. 18g out into the standard basket that came with the portafilter, tamping put in machine and go Temp I.
> 3. hits 40g out after about 18seconds, pressure is less than 2 when it starts pouring.
> 4. does not taste good, little crema.
> 
> Cheers


Quick Video?


----------



## stockportman

Rob Barker said:


> Ah well, all was going so well until I noticed this
> 
> View attachment 42371


 Mine does that. It's fine - it's part of the warmup process


----------



## Rob Barker

stockportman said:


> Mine does that. It's fine - it's part of the warmup process


 Excellent news if it is, thanks!


----------



## robti

stockportman said:


> Mine does that. It's fine - it's part of the warmup process


 As said I get it around 10 mins into the warm up after switch on


----------



## siliconslave

robti said:


> 18 in 36 out in around 35-38 seconds, I also had to grind finer than for my classic machine ramps up to 10 in roughly 10 seconds


 Sounds about right - I've had to go finer as well but I wonder if the pressure at the puck is slightly higher, the suggestion is its 1bar less than the boiler readout & thats coming in at about 10.5 when i'm pulling shots. Might be time to turn the OPV down a touch (or get a Manometer)


----------



## DavecUK

siliconslave said:


> Sounds about right - I've had to go finer as well but I wonder if the pressure at the puck is slightly higher, the suggestion is its 1bar less than the boiler readout & thats coming in at about 10.5 when i'm pulling shots. Might be time to turn the OPV down a touch (or get a Manometer)


 Pressure doesn't make that much difference to the shot speed, it can vary from 8 to 11 bar and you can still get a good looking shot. The problem is grind and possibly the coffee.


----------



## Boxerman33

I noticed a difference in consistency/quality of grind. I was averaging 30 seconds for a 21g shot (43g out) when using the SGP, but any finer and it would choke the MaraX. I suspect this is down to the grind seeming to be somewhat 'powdery'.

Now i have the Ceado E92, the grind is very consistent (visually it looks coarser than the grind from the SGP) and i get a steady 38 seconds for a 21g shot (43g out) and i can vary it longer or shorter to suit my taste on different beans fairly easily.


----------



## Burnzy

Rob Barker said:


> Ah well, all was going so well until I noticed this
> 
> View attachment 42371


 I believe thats the machine doing its job, it'll automatically flush to keep brew temp down. 🙂


----------



## Rob Barker

Burnzy said:


> I believe thats the machine doing its job, it'll automatically flush to keep brew temp down. 🙂


 I think the machine just broke, it now won't build up any pressure at all when I flip the lever.


----------



## siliconslave

Rob Barker said:


> I think the machine just broke, it now won't build up any pressure at all when I flip the lever.


 Are you sure we have enough water in there? Won't run if the water is too low...


----------



## Rob Barker

siliconslave said:


> Are you sure we have enough water in there? Won't run if the water is too low...


 Totally full


----------



## Rob Barker

Rob Barker said:


> Totally full


 Water will come out the group head at a drip pace, comes out of the hot water spout no problem and out of the steam wand too


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Rob Barker said:


> Ah well, all was going so well until I noticed this
> 
> View attachment 42371


 That's the vacuum breaker closing up.

the Vacuum breaker is a dangling pin with a rubber washer (I'm being very simplistic in the description). It dangles by gravity. Steam will start coming out, and it's diverted to the drip tray (Please see Dave's review and the video where he gives an internal tour of the machine). As soon as the pressure builds, shortly after boiling point, that dangling pin is pushed up by pressure, and the rubber washer seals up, so no more steam comes up. What you see, is normal behaviour, in any prosumer machine.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Rob Barker said:


> Water will come out the group head at a drip pace, comes out of the hot water spout no problem and out of the steam wand too


 With the blank disk on the porta filter, does the pressure build up? How long does it take?


----------



## Jason11

Rob Barker said:


> I think the machine just broke, it now won't build up any pressure at all when I flip the lever.


How long have you had the machine ?


----------



## Rob Barker

MediumRoastSteam said:


> With the blank disk on the porta filter, does the pressure build up? How long does it take?


 It gets to about 2 bar pressure after 45 seconds and then doesn't change.

Had it a week.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Rob Barker said:


> It gets to about 2 bar pressure after 45 seconds and then doesn't change.
> 
> Had it a week.


 Brew pressure? (lower part of the gauge)

Can you do a video of the above, focusing on the manometer, the group and the drip tray? Please take the grate off so we can see if any water is being discharged.

The pump should pump 15 bar pressure. Any excess pressure (above 9 bar) should result in water going to the drip tray. If yours is going to only 2 bar, then either the pump os not working as it should, or the OPV is not configured properly. (unlikely, it doesn't just change all of a sudden).

Or maybe there's an air lock somewhere... Is the tank connected properly?


----------



## Rob Barker

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Brew pressure? (lower part of the gauge)
> 
> Can you do a video of the above, focusing on the manometer, the group and the drip tray? Please take the grate off so we can see if any water is being discharged.
> 
> The pump should pump 15 bar pressure. Any excess pressure (above 9 bar) should result in water going to the drip tray. If yours is going to only 2 bar, then either the pump os not working as it should, or the OPV is not configured properly. (unlikely, it doesn't just change all of a sudden).
> 
> Or maybe there's an air lock somewhere... Is the tank connected properly?


 Tank appears to be connected ok, it's filling up the boiler as it's going down. I've sent the videos to Bella barista to have a look and will feed back findings.

/monthly_2020_07/VID_20200706_114451_854x480.mp4.198e5ccb5b4b8db49b9dd58b1ea5e419.mp4" type="video/mp4">
View attachment VID_20200706_114451_854x480.mp4


----------



## potter985

Rob Barker said:


> I think the machine just broke, it now won't build up any pressure at all when I flip the lever.


 Maybe a problem with solenoid valve?


----------



## DavecUK

Rob Barker said:


> Water will come out the group head at a drip pace, comes out of the hot water spout no problem and out of the steam wand too


 Lets rewind with some basic questions. By answering them there is a better chance of BB finding the fault or eliminating some silly problem that can be fixed locally

1. You said about 1 hour ago the machine just broke and won't build up any pressure, is the pump running when you lift the lever, *if it is running, is the level in the tank dropping?*

*2. Are you using the in tank filter....if you are, remove it to eliminate that as a cause.*

3. I can see pressure definitely isn't building and the pressure gauge must be working fine. If it was building pressure properly water would be entering the drip tray from the expansion valve. This also means the expansion valve is opening at too low a pressure. So when you did that video showing 2 bar pressure, *was the water level in the tank dropping*?

4. Did it ever work right and build up 9 or 10 bar

5. What's the flow from the group like with no blind filter, or portafilter loaded, if it's really slow then it rather indicates a kinked tube or blockage upstream of the pump.....

If the pump is being starved a bit of water, then it may be able to build enough pressure to fill a steam boiler at 1.5 bar, but perhaps not able to generate 2 bar.....If the tank level is dropping normally with a blind filter locked and loaded, then the water must be going somewhere. If that water isn't on the counter under the machine, coming out the expansion valve....then logically it must be filling the boiler.

If that is happening then the steam would start to get very wet...the more and longer shots against a blind filter you do, the more it will fill up. Eventually it will get so full, that warming up the machine with an open vacuum breaker would result in a lot of water flow due to water expansion before it got hot enough to close the breaker....plus a lot of wet steam.

Now unfortunately because you shoot video like it costs £10000 per second. The video showing the dripping into the tray as the vacuum breaker closed is missing the period before, was a lot of water coming out. When you warm a machine, water expands, some will come from the HX through the expansion valve (you will also get a few teaspoons after every shot), but very little should come with the vacuum breaker hissing.

I could write a book but carefully read what I have said and try some stuff....the worst that can happen is you will learn something, the best that can happen is you remove the tank filter and all is good!


----------



## Rob Barker

DavecUK said:


> Lets rewind with some basic questions. By answering them there is a better chance of BB finding the fault or eliminating some silly problem that can be fixed locally
> 
> 1. You said about 1 hour ago the machine just broke and won't build up any pressure, is the pump running when you lift the lever, *if it is running, is the level in the tank dropping?*
> 
> *2. Are you using the in tank filter....if you are, remove it to eliminate that as a cause.*
> 
> 3. I can see pressure definitely isn't building and the pressure gauge must be working fine. If it was building pressure properly water would be entering the drip tray from the expansion valve. This also means the expansion valve is opening at too low a pressure. So when you did that video showing 2 bar pressure, *was the water level in the tank dropping*?
> 
> 4. Did it ever work right and build up 9 or 10 bar
> 
> 5. What's the flow from the group like with no blind filter, or portafilter loaded, if it's really slow then it rather indicates a kinked tube or blockage upstream of the pump.....
> 
> If the pump is being starved a bit of water, then it may be able to build enough pressure to fill a steam boiler at 1.5 bar, but perhaps not able to generate 2 bar.....If the tank level is dropping normally with a blind filter locked and loaded, then the water must be going somewhere. If that water isn't on the counter under the machine, coming out the expansion valve....then logically it must be filling the boiler.
> 
> If that is happening then the steam would start to get very wet...the more and longer shots against a blind filter you do, the more it will fill up. Eventually it will get so full, that warming up the machine with an open vacuum breaker would result in a lot of water flow due to water expansion before it got hot enough to close the breaker....plus a lot of wet steam.
> 
> Now unfortunately because you shoot video like it costs £10000 per second. The video showing the dripping into the tray as the vacuum breaker closed is missing the period before, was a lot of water coming out. When you warm a machine, water expands, some will come from the HX through the expansion valve (you will also get a few teaspoons after every shot), but very little should come with the vacuum breaker hissing.
> 
> I could write a book but carefully read what I have said and try some stuff....the worst that can happen is you will learn something, the best that can happen is you remove the tank filter and all is good!


 I can say that BB think it could be any of the things you've mentioned. I did remove the tank and filter with no luck. It was working earlier this morning, I was about to.get my second coffee of the day and was rejected, but no fret, I will have a V60.

What BB want is to get the machine back and have a look as that way they have more information and Martin intimated towards building up their QA process checks before sending more out, which I think is a great move. If it's as simple as the filter being the root cause then they can simply remove from future deliveries and ask lelit to look at it.

All great information for me too as I begin to learn more. I'm a data scientist, not an engineer of any kind, so this is really fascinating.


----------



## DavecUK

Rob Barker said:


> I can say that BB think it could be any of the things you've mentioned. I did remove the tank and filter with no luck. It was working earlier this morning, I was about to.get my second coffee of the day and was rejected, but no fret, I will have a V60.
> 
> What BB want is to get the machine back and have a look as that way they have more information and Martin intimated towards building up their QA process checks before sending more out, which I think is a great move. If it's as simple as the filter being the root cause then they can simply remove from future deliveries and ask lelit to look at it.
> 
> All great information for me too as I begin to learn more. I'm a data scientist, not an engineer of any kind, so this is really fascinating.


 So I take it your not going to answer any of the questions and try the things out that I suggested? It's a pity because it's useful for my learning as well.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Rob Barker said:


> I can say that BB think it could be any of the things you've mentioned. I did remove the tank and filter with no luck. It was working earlier this morning, I was about to.get my second coffee of the day and was rejected, but no fret, I will have a V60.
> 
> What BB want is to get the machine back and have a look as that way they have more information and Martin intimated towards building up their QA process checks before sending more out, which I think is a great move. If it's as simple as the filter being the root cause then they can simply remove from future deliveries and ask lelit to look at it.
> 
> All great information for me too as I begin to learn more. I'm a data scientist, not an engineer of any kind, so this is really fascinating.


 Good stuff Rob! Hopefully it's a simple fault and with Dave's help here you can hopefully identify it.

- As Dave says, the water must be going somewhere *IF* the water is going through the pump.

Data scientist hey... I'm a software engineer. 🙂


----------



## Rob Barker

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Good stuff Rob! Hopefully it's a simple fault and with Dave's help here you can hopefully identify it.
> 
> - As Dave says, the water must be going somewhere *IF* the water is going through the pump.
> 
> Data scientist hey... I'm a software engineer. 🙂


 I wonder if we like these things because of the structure!

Dave, happy to answer the questions of course, and I will get information back of what happened which should further expand your knowledge.

1) yes, the water was going down. I actually did have to fill it again as I tested more. What was interesting was the boiler running more regularly even when not in use

2) I did use and I removed it to check but didn't get any difference

3) I didn't look on the blind filter sorry as to whether it was dropping, they'd already called me and asked me to pack it up for them.

4) it worked all the way up to my second shot today. The first video I posted of water coming out from the base was when it all started to go wrong

5) attached video

I shot the video short as a 20 second video is 51mb, so I have to compress afterwards to meet the max size allowed on the website of 7Mb. I've compressed this video significantly to allow loading to this site

/monthly_2020_07/VID_20200706_104810_01_360x640.mp4.9b131ce8a983eded63fffb1b1211aa49.mp4" type="video/mp4">
View attachment VID_20200706_104810_01_360x640.mp4


----------



## Rob Barker

Rob Barker said:


> I wonder if we like these things because of the structure!
> 
> Dave, happy to answer the questions of course, and I will get information back of what happened which should further expand your knowledge.
> 
> 1) yes, the water was going down. I actually did have to fill it again as I tested more. What was interesting was the boiler running more regularly even when not in use
> 
> 2) I did use and I removed it to check but didn't get any difference
> 
> 3) I didn't look on the blind filter sorry as to whether it was dropping, they'd already called me and asked me to pack it up for them.
> 
> 4) it worked all the way up to my second shot today. The first video I posted of water coming out from the base was when it all started to go wrong
> 
> 5) attached video
> 
> I shot the video short as a 20 second video is 51mb, so I have to compress afterwards to meet the max size allowed on the website of 7Mb. I've compressed this video significantly to allow loading to this site
> 
> View attachment 42385


/monthly_2020_07/VID_20200706_113816_854x480.mp4.1a867cbbfe805b2d0d8c004bb0cb560a.mp4" type="video/mp4">
View attachment VID_20200706_113816_854x480.mp4


----------



## Rob Barker

Rob Barker said:


> I wonder if we like these things because of the structure!
> 
> Dave, happy to answer the questions of course, and I will get information back of what happened which should further expand your knowledge.
> 
> 1) yes, the water was going down. I actually did have to fill it again as I tested more. What was interesting was the boiler running more regularly even when not in use
> 
> 2) I did use and I removed it to check but didn't get any difference
> 
> 3) I didn't look on the blind filter sorry as to whether it was dropping, they'd already called me and asked me to pack it up for them.
> 
> 4) it worked all the way up to my second shot today. The first video I posted of water coming out from the base was when it all started to go wrong
> 
> 5) attached video
> 
> I shot the video short as a 20 second video is 51mb, so I have to compress afterwards to meet the max size allowed on the website of 7Mb. I've compressed this video significantly to allow loading to this site
> 
> View attachment 42385


 Apologies, this is the wrong video, I have many that I took, this was with a puck in


----------



## DavecUK

Definitely flow out of the open group is too slow.

You can upload videos as unlisted to YouTube and simply paste the link here. Don't ever try to upload anything significantly sized to the forum. This way you won't have to compress it or keep it short.

Because you did not notice whether the tank water level was dropping with the blind filter installed, it's possible that the water is simply filling the main boiler. If it's dropping it has to be going somewhere.

If it's not dropping then there could be something jammed in the inlet of the pump restricting the flow, hence the low flow and pressure..As it's now boxed up that's a check you cannot do.


----------



## Rob Barker

DavecUK said:


> Definitely flow out of the open group is too slow.
> 
> You can upload videos as unlisted to YouTube and simply paste the link here. Don't ever try to upload anything significantly sized to the forum. This way you won't have to compress it or keep it short.
> 
> Because you did not notice whether the tank water level was dropping with the blind filter installed, it's possible that the water is simply filling the main boiler. If it's dropping it has to be going somewhere.
> 
> If it's not dropping then there could be something jammed in the inlet of the pump restricting the flow, hence the low flow and pressure..As it's now boxed up that's a check you cannot do.


 Makes total sense, they did mention the solenoid valve or a blockage, which is when I tried without the filter. I think they want to look themselves and build up more knowledge, I'm sure it'll be something simple and if it is, they'll hopefully give the green light for people to open their machines without any question of warranty should the same series of events happen.

I am always hesitant to open things up of expense when still within warranty in fear of voiding.


----------



## DavecUK

Well make sure after a year of ownership you open it for its annual inspection. Don't worry about voiding yourself, it's not that frightening.


----------



## robti

Just looking for confirmation that this sounds roughly right. First start in the morning and drip tray has small puddle of water, I then pour 5x36g flat whites with 5x2 second purged of steam wand into drip tray at steaming milk and have just over 400ml in drip tray upon switching off Everything seems to be working fine coffee wise so does this sound okay and worrying over nothing?

Thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

robti said:


> Just looking for confirmation that this sounds roughly right. First start in the morning and drip tray has small puddle of water, I then pour 5x36g flat whites with 5x2 second purged of steam wand into drip tray at steaming milk and have just over 400ml in drip tray upon switching off Everything seems to be working fine coffee wise so does this sound okay and worrying over nothing?
> Thanks


Looks fine to me, in line with what other people are reporting in terms of water usage/wastage. Enjoy the machine!


----------



## robti

Thanks just looking for reassurance and you gave it


----------



## stockportman

From my limited playing and experimenting, it's all about the OPV. If that opens during a pour, you divert a lot of water into your drip tray - if it doesn't, the drip tray stays far less full.

As I'm relatively green behind the ears, this might be a silly comment, but I'm surprised at how close to the edge I end up sailing to that opening with most of my shots (although it seems to be a great indicator too - as my best shots have all been when it hasn't opened)


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

stockportman said:


> From my limited playing and experimenting, it's all about the OPV. If that opens during a pour, you divert a lot of water into your drip tray - if it doesn't, the drip tray stays far less full.
> As I'm relatively green behind the ears, this might be a silly comment, but I'm surprised at how close to the edge I end up sailing to that opening with most of my shots (although it seems to be a great indicator too - as my best shots have all been when it hasn't opened)


What pressure do you read in the gauge when it doesn't open?Between 9 and 10?


----------



## stockportman

MediumRoastSteam said:


> What pressure do you read in the gauge when it doesn't open?Between 9 and 10?


 Yeah, just above 9 I think. I'll look a bit closer today, but from memory just a touch over 9


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

stockportman said:


> Yeah, just above 9 I think. I'll look a bit closer today, but from memory just a touch over 9


 What's your input (how much coffee in the basket), output (how much liquid in the cup) and time from turning the pump on? I mean, if the pump is set to deliver 15bar, and the OPV is set to open at 9.5 bar (e.g.) and is not opening, that means that the water must be coming through the put rather fast?


----------



## eduk

Similar for me regarding water consumption.

I've just emptied about 450ml from the drip tray this morning.

I've pulled 4 double shots and have steamed for latte twice.

The extractions are 18.5g in, 60ml out (I haven't weighed them), 25s (from 1st flow), just under 10 bar

I have noticed that there is a constant flow into the drip tray during extraction at that pressure. Seems to be an excessive amount of waste which seems to have increased from when I first received the machine. I'm having to refill the tank every other day for maybe 4-5 shots per day!


----------



## OutCold

So I'm wondering if the water from the OPV can be rerouted back to tank.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

OutCold said:


> So I'm wondering if the water from the OPV can be rerouted back to tank.


I don't have the MaraX. But if you look at Dave's review and look inside, you'll see the OPV's hose joins a Y connector, ultimately carrying the water of the OPV, brew circuit solenoid and vacum breaker to the drip tray. You can re-route the OPV hose back to the tank, but I don't know how easy that would be.

But remember it's not all from the OPV: the E61 will also vent out about 50ml of water into the drip tray, per shot.


----------



## shaunlawler

Does anyone know if the stock baskets that come with the Lelit Mara X will be compatible with a Mahlgut tamp and dozer 58.4mm?

Link below:

https://mahlgut-manufaktur.de/en/product/mahlgut-dozer-buzzer-bundle/


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

shaunlawler said:


> Does anyone know if the stock baskets that come with the Lelit Mara X will be compatible with a Mahlgut tamp and dozer 58.4mm?
> 
> Link below:
> 
> https://mahlgut-manufaktur.de/en/product/mahlgut-dozer-buzzer-bundle/


The tamper which comes with the MaraX is 58.5mm. So yes?


----------



## siliconslave

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The tamper which comes with the MaraX is 58.5mm. So yes?


 58.55 isn't is - so it'll fit but you'll be getting a huge 0.15mm of play there


----------



## siliconslave

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I don't have the MaraX. But if you look at Dave's review and look inside, you'll see the OPV's hose joins a Y connector, ultimately carrying the water of the OPV, brew circuit solenoid and vacum breaker to the drip tray. You can re-route the OPV hose back to the tank, but I don't know how easy that would be.


 The water tank is also bottom fill so theres no easy route into the top of the tank for a return path (probably why it doesn't dump over pressure to the tank - Dave did the prototype return to tank?) so you'd have to cut out a notch at the top of the tank to get a pipe back in I think.


----------



## 2953

The most annoying thing about the water waste for me is not so much the excess it uses as the trade off more than makes it worth it but getting to see how full the drip tray is with it! The back of the tray is lower than the top so if it dumps a bit more water than normal when you're not looking then it all gushes out on to the table 😑

Could do with an audible low water warning too which I'm certain I read somewhere it was supposed to have??


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

petebetros said:


> The most annoying thing about the water waste for me is not so much the excess it uses as the trade off more than makes it worth it but getting to see how full the drip tray is with it! The back of the tray is lower than the top so if it dumps a bit more water than normal when you're not looking then it all gushes out on to the table
> 
> Could do with an audible low water warning too which I'm certain I read somewhere it was supposed to have??


 Which machine did you have before the MaraX? Do a test for the water wastage:

- Before you go to bed tonight, clean the drip tray, nice and dry.

- Tomorrow, when you make a coffee, put a container under the exhaust valve of the E61 before you move the lever to the lower position (off). it will splash, so just make sure whatever you have is suitable and deep. Empty that water into another container, keep until the end of the day. Repeat that process throughout the day.

- At the end of the day, before you go to bed, how much water is in the drip tray? How much water is in the container?

I have a feeling that, for a few people in this thread, it's their first E61 machine and the OPV diversion to the drip tray is taking an unfair blame. Yes it adds up, but the drip tray is not getting full just because of the OPV.

Also don't forget this machine vents the brew circuit after a shot, so the pressure gauge goes back to zero. That will also end up in the drip tray. I personally think this is a well worthwhile feature, otherwise the gauge is forever stuck at approx. 4 bar!


----------



## 2953

I had a Piccino before; I knew about the water diversion on the machine from Dave's review. It doesn't bother me other than the one time I left it a couple of days before draining the tray the thing flooded because I didn't notice how full it was! On the Piccino because the tray was black you could see how much water there was, on this one no chance as the water goes out the back of the tray before it gets anywhere near the grate and you can't really tell the depth from a glance. No bother it's just a quick task to add in at the end of the day but if you're making a good few coffees throughout the day definitely need to keep an eye on it.

I just measured - machine warming up for about 30 minutes of so, 28ml in tray. After a 18g in, 48g out, 37sec shot and 170ml or so milk steam there was an additional 70ml of water in the tray.


----------



## shaunlawler

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The tamper which comes with the MaraX is 58.5mm. So yes?


Thanks (and apologies for the noob question)

Picking up this machine in the next few weeks and wanted to make sure these would fit the baskets supplied

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nikko

petebetros said:


> I just measured - machine warming up for about 30 minutes of so, 28ml in tray. After a 18g in, 48g out, 37sec shot and 170ml or so milk steam there was an additional 70ml of water in the tray.


 So at the pressure you brewed at the pump flow is about 200 ml/min. If the pressure was 9 or 10 bar, then similar to E5 Ulka pump.

the lower the brew pressure, the greater the flow to the drip tray.


----------



## DavecUK

The reason Lelit routed it to the drip tray (it went back to the tank in the Prototype) was because the bottom loaded tank system lifted the cartridge of the fitting when it was installed. Obviously they couldn't have that, so they routed it to the drip tray. It adds a little extra per shot but they put up with that for the extra convenience for bottom loading and the filtration system. The flow rate is quite a bit less under pressure with the Quiet X-Pump (my name, I like naming things), so they gave it a nice large drip tray and didn't worry about it.

A Tank with tubes in the top has a cartridge on the end of one of the tubes and is not as convenient to most users, who apparently prefer drop in tanks without tubes (theres a suprise). Longer term I have suggested a solution to the problem to them, allowing them to keep the existing drop in system. It's something you could buy some bits (brass tube connectors from the bay) for a few pounds and retrofit yourself. You might say oh it's simple why can't they just do it, but in production it's never that simple and it might not work.

Unfortunately, the old holes in the tinwork for the prototype were removed in production, so it will require the slightly more complicated mod I suggested to Lelit rather than a tube to the top of the tank.* I don't have time to give detailed instructions and I probably won't bother myself, as it's so little water per shot saved, it's not an issue for me.*

You will need some bits (I think it should work OK)...The schematic is not exact, it's to give those with the skills all the guidance they need to do it.. Let me know how you get on with some photos and whether it works. You never know one of you might be the first to come up with a community mod. Interesting project for someone who is bothered enough about the water in the drip tray..



Brass connectors 2/3/ or 4 way to replace connector you remove expansion valve tube from


Some tubing


The valves below of the right size, this should prevent the resin filter lifting.


http://www.pvctubeonline.co.uk/plastic_sprung_valves.htm


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

petebetros said:


> I had a Piccino before; I knew about the water diversion on the machine from Dave's review. It doesn't bother me other than the one time I left it a couple of days before draining the tray the thing flooded because I didn't notice how full it was! On the Piccino because the tray was black you could see how much water there was, on this one no chance as the water goes out the back of the tray before it gets anywhere near the grate and you can't really tell the depth from a glance. No bother it's just a quick task to add in at the end of the day but if you're making a good few coffees throughout the day definitely need to keep an eye on it.
> 
> I just measured - machine warming up for about 30 minutes of so, 28ml in tray. After a 18g in, 48g out, 37sec shot and 170ml or so milk steam there was an additional 70ml of water in the tray.


 So, 70ml in total.

I once measure what comes out of the exhaust valve on my e61 machine, it was approx. 43ml. So, we could say that 27ml is from the OPV + brew circuit solenoid. I think this tallies up to what Dave says in his review, to quote:



> A flow rate substantially less than a standard pump under pressure means *only 35 to 50ml of extra water enters the drip tray during a double shot as a result of this decision* (depending on shot time). A very worthwhile trade-off to have a neat tank solution with integral filter.


 IMMV


----------



## Bowser

MaraX arrived Monday and finally this evening managed to inbox it. Label removed, eco mode off. First shot 18g in 0g out in 50s 

Hmmm, I think I may have ground too fine and tamped too hard! Finest setting on my Comandante C40. Took me an age to hand grind 18g to total dust! 

Looking forward to messing a few more shots up tomorrow morning!


----------



## Stanic

I'm also not exactly impressed with the amount of waste water with my after-shot cleaning regime, but it is not the end of the world. Mind you, I've turned the OPV down a bit, and also use the flow control valve.

Would love to have a plumb-out option but realise what price level are we talking about.

I'm thinking of it as yes, you would save water by recirculation but then, this way the water is always fresh from the tank. I'm using a line-in BWT filter so plenty of water at hand. Actually, when I had the Rancilio Silvia and realised the water was going back to the tank, I've put a jar beside the machine and routed the return hose into it. But that was only the few last months before I sold it.


----------



## Boxerman33

Bowser said:


> MaraX arrived Monday and finally this evening managed to inbox it. Label removed, eco mode off. First shot 18g in 0g out in 50s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm, I think I may have ground too fine and tamped too hard! Finest setting on my Comandante C40. Took me an age to hand grind 18g to total dust!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking forward to messing a few more shots up tomorrow morning!


 i've done this a couple of times when i forgot to change grind settings for different beans. But i'm stubborn so one of the shots yesterday took almost 3 minutes as i refused to grind another 20gms????‍♂ Yes it tasted awful (masked it with milk) and yes i almost filled the drip tray in the process through the OPV but that was just the way i was feeling!!????‍♂????


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Boxerman33 said:


> i've done this a couple of times when i forgot to change grind settings for different beans. But i'm stubborn so one of the shots yesterday took almost 3 minutes as i refused to grind another 20gms🤷‍♂️ Yes it tasted awful (masked it with milk) and yes i almost filled the drip tray in the process through the OPV but that was just the way i was feeling!!🤦‍♂️😂


 Careful not to burn out the pump! (running it non-stop for 3 minutes!)


----------



## DavecUK

Boxerman33 said:


> i've done this a couple of times when i forgot to change grind settings for different beans. But i'm stubborn so one of the shots yesterday took almost 3 minutes as i refused to grind another 20gms🤷‍♂️ Yes it tasted awful (masked it with milk) and yes i almost filled the drip tray in the process through the OPV but that was just the way i was feeling!!🤦‍♂️😂


 I have decided that you are a cheap, lazy b*stard...


----------



## robti

Boxerman33 said:


> i've done this a couple of times when i forgot to change grind settings for different beans. But i'm stubborn so one of the shots yesterday took almost 3 minutes as i refused to grind another 20gms🤷‍♂️ Yes it tasted awful (masked it with milk) and yes i almost filled the drip tray in the process through the OPV but that was just the way i was feeling!!🤦‍♂️😂


 Ditto although never hit a minute yet


----------



## Bowser

Boxerman33 said:


> i've done this a couple of times when i forgot to change grind settings for different beans. But i'm stubborn so one of the shots yesterday took almost 3 minutes as i refused to grind another 20gms🤷‍♂️ Yes it tasted awful (masked it with milk) and yes i almost filled the drip tray in the process through the OPV but that was just the way i was feeling!!🤦‍♂️😂


 Haha! I totally empathise with this! I couldn't be bothered to check the grind setting table for my C40. I thought 1-5 clicks was espresso so went with 1. Turns out it should have been 10-15! Tell you what thought, I can vouch for the quality of dust the C40 can generate!!!

Started at 15 clicks this morning. Flew straight through. 14, slower but still flew straight through. 12, dropped the little glass jar off the bottom of the grinder. Danced off the work surface. Bounced. Smashed. Lost the will! I think there's a spare in the original box.

This is fun 🤣


----------



## Jason11

Bowser said:


> Haha! I totally empathise with this! I couldn't be bothered to check the grind setting table for my C40. I thought 1-5 clicks was espresso so went with 1. Turns out it should have been 10-15! Tell you what thought, I can vouch for the quality of dust the C40 can generate!!!
> Started at 15 clicks this morning. Flew straight through. 14, slower but still flew straight through. 12, dropped the little glass jar off the bottom of the grinder. Danced off the work surface. Bounced. Smashed. Lost the will! I think there's a spare in the original box.
> This is fun


I used to grind around 16-20 on the Redclix C40 for espresso on my Gaggia Classic so that would be 8-10 clicks on a standard C40.

They do come with a spare jar too.


----------



## Jason11

I've got an 18g VST basket that I bought and used with my Classic. Could anyone enlighten me as to whether it is compatible with the MaraX ? I've checked the item on Hasbean's website which is where I got it and it mentions lots of manufacturers but not Lelit.

Cheers


----------



## PD2020

Jason11 said:


> I've got an 18g VST basket that I bought and used with my Classic. Could anyone enlighten me as to whether it is compatible with the MaraX ? I've checked the item on Hasbean's website which is where I got it and it mentions lots of manufacturers but not Lelit.
> 
> Cheers


 Hi Jason. It's compatible and in fact one of the recommended ones. I've been using VST with my Marax too


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Jason11 said:


> I've got an 18g VST basket that I bought and used with my Classic. Could anyone enlighten me as to whether it is compatible with the MaraX ? I've checked the item on Hasbean's website which is where I got it and it mentions lots of manufacturers but not Lelit.
> 
> Cheers


 It will fit no problems.


----------



## Jason11

Cheers guys.


----------



## robti

As has been said had it on my classic and now on my maraX works great


----------



## Boxerman33

DavecUK said:


> I have decided that you are a cheap, lazy b*stard...


 Yes a true Yorkshireman!!! 😂


----------



## efrain-PR

Jason11 said:


> I've got an 18g VST basket that I bought and used with my Classic. Could anyone enlighten me as to whether it is compatible with the MaraX ? I've checked the item on Hasbean's website which is where I got it and it mentions lots of manufacturers but not Lelit.
> 
> Cheers


 Its fits, with Lelit portafilter, bottomless 18g and 20g VST basket fits, don't go bigger, on spouted 18g VST basket or less.


----------



## Jason11

efrain-PR said:


> Its fits, with Lelit portafilter, bottomless 18g and 20g VST basket fits, don't go bigger, on spouted 18g VST basket or less.


Just pulled a couple of shots with the 18g VST and all's good. I had to tighten the grind a fair bit from the Lelit 14-18g stock basket though.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Jason11 said:


> Just pulled a couple of shots with the 18g VST and all's good. I had to tighten the grind a fair bit from the Lelit 14-18g stock basket though.


 Are you back in business with the MaraX? New machine or same one?


----------



## Jason11

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Are you back in business with the MaraX? New machine or same one?


Same one with the leak fixed .

I pulled a couple of shots yesterday and a couple today so far and everything seems to be working fine. Brew pressure is a tad high at 10.5 with blind basket so I may knock it down a bit on the weekend.


----------



## Rob Barker

DavecUK said:


> Well make sure after a year of ownership you open it for its annual inspection. Don't worry about voiding yourself, it's not that frightening.


 BB got back, they've been brilliant about it all.

They've said fixed it but are keeping it a little longer as it's the first failure they've seen of its kind on the mara X. They said it was either the shuttle in the vibration pump or the non return valves or both that failed and it couldn't create pressure.


----------



## Andrewczy

Coming from a single boiler machine I've never really thought about this until Just 5 mins ago.

Is anyone here brewing and steaming at the same time on the Mara x? I know you're probably only saving 30 secs or so, but just trying to figure out the best work flow on this.

I guess that also depends on how quick the steam boost kicks in once the lever is engaged.


----------



## DavecUK

Andrewczy said:


> Coming from a single boiler machine I've never really thought about this until Just 5 mins ago.
> 
> Is anyone here brewing and steaming at the same time on the Mara x? I know you're probably only saving 30 secs or so, but just trying to figure out the best work flow on this.
> 
> I guess that also depends on how quick the steam boost kicks in once the lever is engaged.


 You can crack the wand to purge it...this will start the temp rise and then pull the shot so the steam comes up to pressure a bit quicker....why you would want to do both at the same time escapes me, unless you are in a real hurry to shave off a few seconds.


----------



## Stanic

Andrewczy said:


> Is anyone here brewing and steaming at the same time on the Mara x? I know you're probably only saving 30 secs or so, but just trying to figure out the best work flow on this.


 Yep, I do, my workflow:

Purge the wand, pour milk in the jug, weight beans, grind directly into the portafilter, stirr and tamp, put scales plus mug under the group, lock PF in, start the shot, froth the milk, end the shot, pour milk, clean the machine, drink the coffee


----------



## PD2020

Hi,

I remember DaveC saying somewhere that he recommends PulyCafe for chemical backflush. I still have a nearly full tube of Cafiza left. Would it be OK to use it up on MaraX or should I rather switch to PulyCafe?

Cheers.


----------



## DavecUK

PD2020 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I remember DaveC saying somewhere that he recommends PulyCafe for chemical backflush. I still have a nearly full tube of Cafiza left. Would it be OK to use it up on MaraX or should I rather switch to PulyCafe?
> 
> Cheers.


 It's only because I have a major shareholding in PulyCaf  Cafiza will be fine but you make sure to order Puly when you run out. Make me richer....especially all that click revenue when you order


----------



## PD2020

DavecUK said:


> It's only because I have a major shareholding in PulyCaf  Cafiza will be fine but you make sure to order Puly when you run out. Make me richer....especially all that click revenue when you order


 Thanks Dave. Will do. Remember this post when you see your bank account balance unexpectedly jump up somewhere in a year from now - that's me buying Puly.


----------



## Burnzy

been struggling a bit with the extra power steaming my milk

I regretfully googled

"2 hole steam wand position"


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Burnzy said:


> been struggling a bit with the extra power steaming my milk
> 
> I regretfully googled
> 
> "2 hole steam wand position"


 Yep! I personally don't understand why two and not three or four. As long as the hole area remains the same, the pressure steadiness should remain the same. My experience with a two hole tip has never been good (yeah, I'm rubbish at it, but let's not focus on that! 😂) The best results I had was to use ghosting:






IMMV.

I know @Stanic sourced a 1 hole steam tip for his MaraX. I'm wondering whether you could source a 3 or 4 hole tip? Just make sure the holes are the right size for your machine.


----------



## Border_all

PD2020 said:


> Thanks Dave. Will do. Remember this post when you see your bank account balance unexpectedly jump up somewhere in a year from now - that's me buying Puly.


 I have mine on fortnightly order this really helps Dave 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Burnzy

> 10 minutes ago, MediumRoastSteam said:
> 
> Yep! I personally don't understand why two and not three or four. As long as the hole area remains the same, the pressure steadiness should remain the same. My experience with a two hole tip has never been good (yeah, I'm rubbish at it, but let's not focus on that! 😂) The best results I had was to use ghosting:


 Yeah taking a while to get used to, no matter how gradually i pull the wand out it seems to shoot loads of air in now and again 🙈

i think its all jug wand position, just taking a while to adapt! Love how quick it is tho.


----------



## Stanic

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I know @Stanic sourced a 1 hole steam tip for his MaraX. I'm wondering whether you could source a 3 or 4 hole tip? Just make sure the holes are the right size for your machine.


 Yeah it helped I think 

Frothing is comfortable now where it was a struggle with the two hole tip. I'm pretty sure the 4 hole ones are available, not sure about 3. You'll need a 8.5 mm male thread tip.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Stanic said:


> Yeah it helped I think
> 
> Frothing is comfortable now where it was a struggle with the two hole tip. I'm pretty sure the 4 hole ones are available, not sure about 3. You'll need a 8.5 mm male thread tip.


 Just for reference for anyone looking for those, do you have a link to the one you have and other suitable ones?


----------



## Stanic

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Just for reference for anyone looking for those, do you have a link to the one you have and other suitable ones?


https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48398-mara-x/?do=embed&comment=746742&embedComment=746742&embedDo=findComment


----------



## Martin L

Good afternoon all,

I enter as a brand new member with a brand new Mara X. I had a fair bit of hassle getting the machine here all put down to courier problems by the supplier!

So great, it's here and I was very impressed with the packaging and the visual quality of the machine looks good. Only problem is it doesn't work .....

The machine refuses to come on as the low water light will not stop flashing. Getting very limited assistance from my supplier so thought I would ask you guys if you had experienced this problem before. I have tried switching stand-by mode off but no difference.

Any pointers would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Martin


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Martin L said:


> Good afternoon all,
> 
> I enter as a brand new member with a brand new Mara X. I had a fair bit of hassle getting the machine here all put down to courier problems by the supplier!
> 
> So great, it's here and I was very impressed with the packaging and the visual quality of the machine looks good. Only problem is it doesn't work .....
> 
> The machine refuses to come on as the low water light will not stop flashing. Getting very limited assistance from my supplier so thought I would ask you guys if you had experienced this problem before. I have tried switching stand-by mode off but no difference.
> 
> Any pointers would be appreciated.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Martin


 Who did you buy the machine from?

ps: Check the tank. There's a float. make sure the float is not stuck.


----------



## DavecUK

Martin L said:


> Good afternoon all,
> 
> I enter as a brand new member with a brand new Mara X. I had a fair bit of hassle getting the machine here all put down to courier problems by the supplier!
> 
> So great, it's here and I was very impressed with the packaging and the visual quality of the machine looks good. Only problem is it doesn't work .....
> 
> The machine refuses to come on as the low water light will not stop flashing. Getting very limited assistance from my supplier so thought I would ask you guys if you had experienced this problem before. I have tried switching stand-by mode off but no difference.
> 
> Any pointers would be appreciated.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Martin




Check tank in the right way round


check float is moving


Check wiring of water tank sensor


Check tank presence detector and wiring


Watch this video


----------



## Martin L

Wow, impressive response, thank you.

Answers to your points:-

Bought from Espresso Underground

Float is working ok. I checked before posting.

Will now watch video and report back.


----------



## shaunlawler

I'm looking to place an order for a Mara X shortly - is there a difference between the machines in the two links below beside the price?

£899.28 - https://www.espressounderground.co.uk/Lelit-Mara-p/pl62x.htm

£949 - https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-marax-espresso-machine.html


----------



## Martin L

The supplier has now come back to me and is trying to help, I have there permission to look inside the machine.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

shaunlawler said:


> I'm looking to place an order for a Mara X shortly - is there a difference between the machines in the two links below beside the price?
> 
> £899.28 - https://www.espressounderground.co.uk/Lelit-Mara-p/pl62x.htm
> 
> £949 - https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-marax-espresso-machine.html


 No. Machines are the same.

Lots of People here buy from Bella Barista, and when they had problems they had no trouble having it replaced/fixed. Keep an eye on the post above yours to see how it goes from Espresso Underground. I never bought from them, so can't comment.


----------



## Martin L

The supplier sent me a link to You Tube video, it was in Italian but you got the gist of it. It showed a displaced micro switch and so I followed Dave's video and identified the problem immediately.

Micro switch was displaced and it just locates onto two plastic pins, seems ok now and machine is warming up as I type.


----------



## stockportman

shaunlawler said:


> I'm looking to place an order for a Mara X shortly - is there a difference between the machines in the two links below beside the price?
> 
> £899.28 - https://www.espressounderground.co.uk/Lelit-Mara-p/pl62x.htm
> 
> £949 - https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-marax-espresso-machine.html


 As @MediumRoastSteam aid, it's the same machine. Espresso underground do free shipping. Bella Barista charge for shipping (£18.99 for UK) so it's a slightly wider price differential than you note.

BB do do a 2 year warranty though.

You pays your money....


----------



## Martin L

shaunlawler said:


> I'm looking to place an order for a Mara X shortly - is there a difference between the machines in the two links below beside the price?
> 
> £899.28 - https://www.espressounderground.co.uk/Lelit-Mara-p/pl62x.htm
> 
> £949 - https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-marax-espresso-machine.html


 Same machine, I paid £949 for mine from Espresso underground who have since dropped their price. The machine was sent direct from Italy to me.


----------



## Martin L

Ok machine is up to temperature, took about 15 minutes. now going to play.

Thanks for your help guys.


----------



## DavecUK

shaunlawler said:


> I'm looking to place an order for a Mara X shortly - is there a difference between the machines in the two links below beside the price?
> 
> £899.28 - https://www.espressounderground.co.uk/Lelit-Mara-p/pl62x.htm
> 
> £949 - https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-marax-espresso-machine.html


 Just this:

I added the bold for you....vs BB 2 year fully transferrable warranty, stock held and delivered from the UK.



> ESPRESSO UNDERGROUND and Products purchased through lelit-uk.co.uk, GRINDER WARRANTY, All COFFEE MACHINE WARRANTIES.
> 
> · All grinders sold come with 12-month a return to base parts and labour warranty. If you encounter a faulty/damaged grinder please email the details with a photograph, if possible, to [email protected]
> 
> · The grinder warranty does not include misuse. Please ensure prior to use that the grinder blades are not touching and that they are adjusted for courser coffee. Please note the MC2 Grinders are recommended for domestic use only.
> 
> · If the grinder can be repaired by supplying replacement part(s) we will charge for the required items and issue a credit upon receipt of the faulty parts.
> 
> · Should a grinder need to be returned to us for repair please request an RMA (Returns Number) by logging into your account at www.espressounderground.co.uk  and selecting "returns request" option and follow the on screen instructions.
> 
> · Please note grinder repairs can take up to 2 weeks and carriage to us will need to be paid by you. In the rare situation that upon inspection the product is found to be beyond economical repair then we will replace at our cost.
> 
> · Commercial Coffee machine can be either parts only warranty or a full parts and labour warranty, the type of warranty is agreed at the time of purchase
> *Domestic coffee machines are all back to base parts only warranty unless agreed at the time of sale, a full warranty can be provided at extra cost. All warranty repair machines must be returned in original packaging*


----------



## Jason11

Martin L said:


> Ok machine is up to temperature, took about 15 minutes. now going to play.
> 
> Thanks for your help guys.


Probably best to leave it 35 minutes for temp stability. Mine usually says it's ready around the 15 minute mark but I think you'll get some temp fluctuations until around the 35 minute mark.

Have a read up of DaveC's review and it'll tell you more with regards how quickly you can pull shots to maintain good temperature stability.


----------



## robti

Jason11 said:


> Probably best to leave it 35 minutes for temp stability. Mine usually says it's ready around the 15 minute mark but I think you'll get some temp fluctuations until around the 35 minute mark.
> 
> Have a read up of DaveC's review and it'll tell you more with regards how quickly you can pull shots to maintain good temperature stability.


 Mines can be anywhere between 30-90 minutes heating up, it comes on at 5am and then it all depends when the dog wakes up


----------



## Badgerman

Interesting seeing the underside here. http://






This reminds me. If I am transporting it in the car, is there anything I should do to it other than empty the tank and let it be cool?

Lelit Mara X, Mazzer Royal, Osmio Zero, Torr with Joey handle


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

> 32 minutes ago, Badgerman said:
> 
> Interesting seeing the underside here. http://


 I'd say so. I don't think you need to drain the boiler. Just make sure the machine is firmly fitted in the car. You don't want it to slide away, banging or tipping over!


----------



## Martin L

Hot water ?

Hello again all, didn't think I'd be back so soon but after all the help and advise I got yesterday I couldn't keep away!

I've got the machine going ok and can immediately say I shouldn't have any problem making good espresso, it's just down to experience and basically getting the grind right. Already been too high on pressure (around 9.5) and can see the relief valve is working ok and too low (around 6.0) and coffee was poor. Best has been around 8.0 bar for approx. 30 seconds. Things will be even easier once I get my new grinder.

My main problem right now is the hot water, the trouble being is that it's extremely hot and continually ejects as a combination of steam and water, way to hot to add to coffee. Thinking about how the heating system on the machine works I can't really see a way around this.

On my old Silvia for example, 18 years old and still going strong by the way, the water is quite hot initially but then quickly cools to an acceptable level. Smaller boiler of course.

In the morning I normally pull a large shot into two cups for my wife and myself, add some milk and then top up with hot water for a long coffee. Doesn't look like I can do that anymore.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Martin


----------



## DavecUK

Use a kettle for hot water...All HX machines (mostly) and most dual boilers (Except the Lelit Elizabeth and a very few others) have hot water like that.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Martin L said:


> Hot water ?
> 
> Hello again all, didn't think I'd be back so soon but after all the help and advise I got yesterday I couldn't keep away!
> 
> I've got the machine going ok and can immediately say I shouldn't have any problem making good espresso, it's just down to experience and basically getting the grind right. Already been too high on pressure (around 9.5) and can see the relief valve is working ok and too low (around 6.0) and coffee was poor. Best has been around 8.0 bar for approx. 30 seconds. Things will be even easier once I get my new grinder.
> 
> My main problem right now is the hot water, the trouble being is that it's extremely hot and continually ejects as a combination of steam and water, way to hot to add to coffee. Thinking about how the heating system on the machine works I can't really see a way around this.
> 
> On my old Silvia for example, 18 years old and still going strong by the way, the water is quite hot initially but then quickly cools to an acceptable level. Smaller boiler of course.
> 
> In the morning I normally pull a large shot into two cups for my wife and myself, add some milk and then top up with hot water for a long coffee. Doesn't look like I can do that anymore.
> 
> Any comments would be appreciated.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Martin


 It's by design. The water temperature inside the service boiler is approx. 130C or thereabouts. It has approx 2L of water. The pipe leading to the hot water tap is at the bottom of the boiler (otherwise you'd get steam - and, as you have guessed, the steam pipe leading to the steam arm is at the top of the boiler).

The water arrives at the tap because it's under pressure (that's what the service boiler manometer - the top half - is telling you). You literally have water being ejected at 130C at 1.4 bar pressure (or thereabouts).

It's just what it is and how it works.


----------



## Martin L

MediumRoastSteam said:


> It's by design. The water temperature inside the service boiler is approx. 130C or thereabouts. It has approx 2L of water. The pipe leading to the hot water tap is at the bottom of the boiler (otherwise you'd get steam - and, as you have guessed, the steam pipe leading to the steam arm is at the top of the boiler).
> 
> The water arrives at the tap because it's under pressure (that's what the service boiler manometer - the top half - is telling you). You literally have water being ejected at 130C at 1.4 bar pressure (or thereabouts).
> 
> It's just what it is and how it works.


 Yes thanks again guys, it's as expected knowing the design as you describe so well, just wish I could think of another fix to save faffing with the kettle. I've yet to play with the steam wand, maybe use that to heat things up and give a frothy top at the same time. I'm old enough to actually remember frothy coffee bars!

I need to play more, but isn't it annoying when people and life get in the way of new toys....?


----------



## Bicky

Draw your water first, before prepping the coffee, then by the time you pull your shot it will be a more reasonable temperature?

The other thing to note, and it's been mentioned a couple of times in this thread, is that the water might not taste as good as freshly boiled water from the kettle.


----------



## Martin L

Bicky said:


> Draw your water first, before prepping the coffee, then by the time you pull your shot it will be a more reasonable temperature?
> 
> The other thing to note, and it's been mentioned a couple of times in this thread, is that the water might not taste as good as freshly boiled water from the kettle.


 Yes I have noticed the awful taste, put it down to the boiler being new.


----------



## DavecUK

Martin L said:


> Yes I have noticed the awful taste, put it down to the boiler being new.


 Tell me about it...takes me weeks to get rid of new machine taste...and I flush shedloads through the boilers before I even use it


----------



## stickyz

Hi All, I am about to buy a Marax from Display . just to be sure , can anyone tell me what is/should be included with the machine?


----------



## robti

Purging some steam to get the pressure to ramp up, how long before you see it rise and to what pressure ?

Thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

stickyz said:


> Hi All, I am about to buy a Marax from Display . just to be sure , can anyone tell me what is/should be included with the machine?


 Did you read the in-depth review? Hint: scroll down a few pages. In blue, in big font, there will be a heading (below for illustration. If you read that, you have your answer).

*
Accessories
*

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/lelit-marax-review-in-progress/


----------



## DavecUK

I sometimes think I'm wasting my time writing these reviews


----------



## stickyz

oh come on , i read it even twice but it was more than a few weeks ago ...!

Thank you anyway , hope ill remember to check the review of my future machine in 7-10 years to check whats included 😇.
Must say (before im going to get it) you convinced me to get it instead of the ACS minima, Hope i am doing the right choice.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

When I get mine new machine, I'll print Dave's review at the time and store with the machine's box, or at least as a digital copy on my local computer. You never know.

Joke: I'll then blame him in 10 years time if something is not quite what he said. 😂

@stickyz - The MaraX seems a great machine. Simple, elegant, compact.


----------



## stickyz

yes I know , upgrading from lelit pl042temd...
I just hope the wife could handle it (got a niche too and preparing the beans in advance is easy). my only issue compared to the acs is the timer or some automatic mechanism to stop the shot when its ready (like preconfigured buttons in other machines)


----------



## Rob Barker

stickyz said:


> Hi All, I am about to buy a Marax from Display . just to be sure , can anyone tell me what is/should be included with the machine?


 This video unboxes it


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

stickyz said:


> yes I know , upgrading from lelit pl042temd...
> I just hope the wife could handle it (got a niche too and preparing the beans in advance is easy). my only issue compared to the acs is the timer or some automatic mechanism to stop the shot when its ready (like preconfigured buttons in other machines)


 Did you check out the Lelit Elizabeth?


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> When I get mine new machine, I'll print Dave's review at the time and store with the machine's box, or at least as a digital copy on my local computer. You never know.
> 
> Joke: I'll then blame him in 10 years time if something is not quite what he said. ????
> 
> @stickyz - The MaraX seems a great machine. Simple, elegant, compact.


 I don't do unboxing videos....to commercial.

Don't forget my review links to some other key sway documents 2 of them I will probably update from time to time. I'll put the review links in as well.



  

Lelit Elizabeth (PL92T) Review

A family-run manufacturer that designs and produces coffee machines for household or professional use. Lelit espresso machines are designed and made in Italy using components and technologi&#8230;



Go to this Sway





  

Lelit Elizabeth (PL92T) Maintenance and Pro tips

This is an extra to the review and a living document during the initial launch of the revised Elizabeth and are maintenance tips I'm gradually pulling together as I have time.



Go to this Sway





  

Lelit Elizabeth - LCC Quick Reference guide

The Lelit Elizabeth can actually be set to show the target brew temperature rather than the actual brew temperature. It would be unusual to set the machine like this in the advanced setting&#8230;



Go to this Sway


----------



## stickyz

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Did you check out the Lelit Elizabeth?


 Honestly i checked it a bit at first but when i understood (correct me if im wrong) the built materials in marax are superior and the tech saves me the dualboiler trouble (possibility of more failuresi could not handle? ) took me towards the marax . However i have no idea how i didnt notice till now it has the preprogrammed buttons. i am really puzzled now.

EDIT: I could not find any local retailers with the V2 and from what i have seen abroad it is already past the 1300€ budget so i dont think i could go for it anyway.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

stickyz said:


> Honestly i checked it a bit at first but when i understood (correct me if im wrong) the built materials in marax are superior and the tech saves me the dualboiler trouble (possibility of more failuresi could not handle? ) took me towards the marax . However i have no idea how i didnt notice till now it has the preprogrammed buttons. i am really puzzled now.
> 
> EDIT: I could not find any local retailers with the V2 and from what i have seen abroad it is already past the 1300€ budget so i dont think i could go for it anyway.


 Bella Barista has it for sale. You are right. In my opinion at least, the MaraX is a far better, superior quality, refined machine.

Lelit has two ranges which are relevant here:

- Line VIP and Line Pro.

Line VIP: Victoria and Elizabeth;

Line Pro: MaraX and Bianca.

So you could say, for the sake or comparison, that the Victoria compares to the MaraX and that the Elizabeth compares to the Bianca.

So, in E61 HX world you have the top model.

See:

https://espresso.lelit.com/products


----------



## stickyz

Thanks for all the help guys , Its HERE!


----------



## Aamz23

stickyz said:


> Thanks for all the help guys , Its HERE!
> 
> View attachment 42924


 How is it so far? Noticing a difference in taste?


----------



## robti

robti said:


> Purging some steam to get the pressure to ramp up, how long before you see it rise and to what pressure ?
> 
> Thanks


 just cant get it to rise past 0.5 am i doing something wrong. i purge steam for 5 seconds then do all the other bits fill milk jug grind coffee pour coffee which all in takes roughly120 seconds and still no movement in steam pressure, only time i have seen it move is on heatup when it can go to over 2.5


----------



## tj893

robti said:


> just cant get it to rise past 0.5 am i doing something wrong. i purge steam for 5 seconds then do all the other bits fill milk jug grind coffee pour coffee which all in takes roughly120 seconds and still no movement in steam pressure, only time i have seen it move is on heatup when it can go to over 2.5


 You've definitely got it in brew temp priority?

Purging the steam wand should lead to a gradual rise within a few seconds. Just to be sure, lift the lever and run water for 5 seconds and then watch the pressure- any movement over the next minute?


----------



## robti

tj893 said:


> You've definitely got it in brew temp priority?
> 
> Purging the steam wand should lead to a gradual rise within a few seconds. Just to be sure, lift the lever and run water for 5 seconds and then watch the pressure- any movement over the next minute?


 Have it switched off atm will switch back on and try lifting the lever

thanks


----------



## DavecUK

robti said:


> just cant get it to rise past 0.5 am i doing something wrong. i purge steam for 5 seconds then do all the other bits fill milk jug grind coffee pour coffee which all in takes roughly120 seconds and still no movement in steam pressure, only time i have seen it move is on heatup when it can go to over 2.5


 Are you trying this the moment it says it's ready, or is this even after it's been on a long time?


----------



## robti

DavecUK said:


> Are you trying this the moment it says it's ready, or is this even after it's been on a long time?


 Round about 15-20 mins between coffees, checked and front button in the middle on 0 and side button pressed in at the top so in brew temp, out atm but will try from scratch again when back in and monitor more closely and report back


----------



## robti

Okay from cold after around 7 minutes gauge shows 1.1, after 8 minutes shows 1.75,after 9 minutes 2.5, and then 10.30 minutes later both leds lit and sitting at 2.1, now time at 19 minutes steam back down to 1,and after 35 minutes later down to 0.4,after a 5 seconds steam purge rises to 0.9, then drops back to 0.4 over 5 minutes later. Lever up for 40 seconds causes the steam to slowly rise to 0.9 then slowly drop again to 0.4.

any ideas or is this right


----------



## tj893

robti said:


> Okay from cold after around 7 minutes gauge shows 1.1, after 8 minutes shows 1.75,after 9 minutes 2.5, and then 10.30 minutes later both leds lit and sitting at 2.1, now time at 19 minutes steam back down to 1,and after 35 minutes later down to 0.4,after a 5 seconds steam purge rises to 0.9, then drops back to 0.4 over 5 minutes later. Lever up for 40 seconds causes the steam to slowly rise to 0.9 then slowly drop again to 0.4.
> 
> any ideas or is this right


 It sounds like it's working properly to me.

At setting zero you could expect the steam pressure to sit relatively low when idling- probably gently oscillating between 0.4 bar up towards 0.75 ish depending on where it is in its heating cycle. So that sounds right in your description.

When you purge the wand/drop the lever it kicks on the heater for x seconds - how high the pressure ends up getting to will depend on where it is to start with. Your machine sounds like it's responding correctly i.e. it is boosting, but perhaps not reaching as high a pressure as I might have thought. As a further test and from the point where machine is settled and idling- try pulling the lever for 5 seconds to start the heating. Then 30 seconds later do the same again. And maybe even again 30 seconds later. In this way by boosting the heat again before it's finished it's last "boost" you should find the steam pressure gets higher- certainly 1.5 I would say.

See how you go with that.


----------



## robti

tj893 said:


> It sounds like it's working properly to me.
> 
> At setting zero you could expect the steam pressure to sit relatively low when idling- probably gently oscillating between 0.4 bar up towards 0.75 ish depending on where it is in its heating cycle. So that sounds right in your description.
> 
> When you purge the wand/drop the lever it kicks on the heater for x seconds - how high the pressure ends up getting to will depend on where it is to start with. Your machine sounds like it's responding correctly i.e. it is boosting, but perhaps not reaching as high a pressure as I might have thought. As a further test and from the point where machine is settled and idling- try pulling the lever for 5 seconds to start the heating. Then 30 seconds later do the same again. And maybe even again 30 seconds later. In this way by boosting the heat again before it's finished it's last "boost" you should find the steam pressure gets higher- certainly 1.5 I would say.
> 
> See how you go with that.


 Thanks will give it a try in the morning


----------



## stickyz

Aamz23 said:


> How is it so far? Noticing a difference in taste?


 Only 24 hours with it but already very satisfied, cappuchinos are easier to make by far compared to my old pl042. i got some fresh beans so i can't really compare to the last i was drinking on the other machine but the partner approved too it was tasty this morning and she is glad its taking so less space...


----------



## robti

robti said:


> Thanks will give it a try in the morning


 Well got it up to about 1.4 trying lifting the lever, I am going to just ignore everything and just use it if this is roughly how it works

thanks


----------



## Pleevus

Has anyone experienced any issues with increased steam pressure from the wand?

We've had our machine for a couple of months now, the steam wand was great but over the last week the pressure has noticeably ramped right up. After pulling two shots the gauge reads 1.5bar, I'm sure I used to be able to steam at this pressure before without a problem, but it's now just too powerful to steam the milk for our flat whites, the milk becomes too turbulent and I can't get it to chirp.

The pressure drops back down to 1bar after we've finished drinking.

I've not changed anything in our process but it's quite a noticeable change.


----------



## DavecUK

Check the position of the 3 position switch behind the tray.

Higher the pressure the better for prosumer steaming but check wand tip is not getting blocked. On Elizabeth I'm steaming at over 2.5 bar.


----------



## tj893

robti said:


> Well got it up to about 1.4 trying lifting the lever, I am going to just ignore everything and just use it if this is roughly how it works
> 
> thanks


 Sounds like everything is working fine to me.


----------



## Pleevus

DavecUK said:


> Check the position of the 3 position switch behind the tray.
> 
> Higher the pressure the better for prosumer steaming but check wand tip is not getting blocked. On Elizabeth I'm steaming at over 2.5 bar.


 It's in the '0' position and the switch on the side is in the '1' position.

I checked to see if there was a blockage but both holes were kicking out what looked to be the same amount of steam.

About to make another couple of flat whites.


----------



## DavecUK

Pleevus said:


> It's in the '0' position and the switch on the side is in the '1' position.
> 
> I checked to see if there was a blockage but both holes were kicking out what looked to be the same amount of steam.
> 
> About to make another couple of flat whites.


 Practice, if you came from a machine with weaker and more pedestrian steaming it takes some getting used to, even though the tip holes are quite small on the MaraX. Don't stretch the milk for too long (try half the time you are using) and *get the wand into the milk a lot earlier than you're used to*, keep the wand closer to the vertical and towards the side of the jug.

You would probably find the Lelit Elizabeth fun, I've usually finished my milk steaming before I've opened the steam valve


----------



## Pleevus

DavecUK said:


> Practice, if you came from a machine with weaker and more pedestrian steaming it takes some getting used to, even though the tip holes are quite small on the MaraX. Don't stretch the milk for too long (try half the time you are using) and *get the wand into the milk a lot earlier than you're used to*, keep the wand closer to the vertical and towards the side of the jug.
> 
> You would probably find the Lelit Elizabeth fun, I've usually finished my milk steaming before I've opened the steam valve


 Just had another go and it's still too powerful, my concern is the sudden change over the last week despite no settings being changed.


----------



## DavecUK

Pleevus said:


> Just had another go and it's still too powerful, my concern is the sudden change over the last week despite no settings being changed.


 *I've no idea why there would be such a change?* If the gauge reads 1.5 bar, as mine does, seemingly yours does and always would have....pressure is pressure and hasn't changed. Nothing else affects steaming apart from fill level and if it was too high the effect would be very wet steam.

Any chance of a video of you steaming? You can load up a HD version to YouTube for free and have it unlisted so you only share the link with us.


----------



## Pleevus

DavecUK said:


> *I've no idea why there would be such a change?* If the gauge reads 1.5 bar, as mine does, seemingly yours does and always would have....pressure is pressure and hasn't changed. Nothing else affects steaming apart from fill level and if it was too high the effect would be very wet steam.
> 
> Any chance of a video of you steaming? You can load up a HD version to YouTube for free and have it unlisted so you only share the link with us.


 I'll do a video tomorrow, hit today's coffee quota. Thanks for the tips.

15 minutes after the pressure has settled to 0.5bar. Is the increased pressure a function of getting the head back to brew temp after I've pulled a couple of shots?


----------



## DavecUK

Pleevus said:


> I'll do a video tomorrow, hit today's coffee quota. Thanks for the tips.
> 
> 15 minutes after the pressure has settled to 0.5bar. Is the increased pressure a function of getting the head back to brew temp after I've pulled a couple of shots?


 A tiny bit, but it's mainly to give you great steaming for those huge lattes...


----------



## Pleevus

DavecUK said:


> A tiny bit, but it's mainly to give you great steaming for those huge lattes...


 It's almost now impossible to do a small amount of milk at that power, I've got a feeling something has gone wrong somewhere.

I used to be able to froth 150ml of milk without an issue, it's now blowing it all over the show. I'm wondering whether the guage is actually displaying the correctly.


----------



## DavecUK

Pleevus said:


> It's almost now impossible to do a small amount of milk at that power, I've got a feeling something has gone wrong somewhere.
> 
> I used to be able to froth 150ml of milk without an issue, it's now blowing it all over the show. I'm wondering whether the guage is actually displaying the correctly.


 You can do a preliminary check of the gauge by switching the machine off and waiting until the pressure drops to zero, you can hasten it by opening the steam wand if you like...once closed the system pressure should remain at zero and the vacuum breaker will open.

Switch the machine on and listen for the hissy schlurp sound as the vacuum breaker closes...that will be close to 100C (when cold they can actually close at 90 due to the outrush of cool air being heated. In a machine that's close to boiling it will be closer to 100C. If the gauge shows 1 bar or a tiny bit above just after the valve closes....it's probably reading OK

To fully check the gauge requires a known good pressure gauge screwed to the steam wand (although threads differ, so perhaps a tube/clamp system). Note to self: I must make one.... Or a thermocouple on the boiler to check the temperature and then doing the correct conversion. Of course a thermocouple on the outside of the boiler will read low. I have a thermal gun which would be easier (further note to self, check what my thermal gun reads when pointed at one of my boilers).

I've just given myself 2 projects

P.S. Thermal guns can be had quite cheaply now, at least mine was cheap


----------



## DavecUK

I tried with my thermal gun on the boiler...readings were crap, that didn't work. couldn't find my black Sharpie and gave up.


Tried using a thermocouple but readings are variable and much lower than the actual water temperature... that didn't work.


Tried with some silicone tubing able to take pressure rammed onto the steam wand and with a digital tyre pressure gauge pressed in the other end. Using my leather welding gloves, Polycarbonate safety face shield and a digital pressure gauge. Worked but fecking dangerous, don't try it at home kids.


----------



## AC30

Is anyone else's Brew/Steam priority switch working the wrong way round? Is this likely to cause any issue?

I am having the same problem as robiti described. I don't appear to get a steam boost. In brew priority middle temp setting I generally make 2 double espressos in the morning but steam pressure sits at 0.5 at all times.

In steam priority the pressure builds to 1.5 - 1.75 but quickly drops when I begin steaming.


----------



## Rob1

AC30 said:


> In steam priority the pressure builds to 1.5 - 1.75 but quickly drops when I begin steaming.


 What does it drop to?


----------



## DavecUK

AC30 said:


> Is anyone else's Brew/Steam priority switch working the wrong way round? Is this likely to cause any issue?
> 
> I am having the same problem as robiti described. I don't appear to get a steam boost. In brew priority middle temp setting I generally make 2 double espressos in the morning but steam pressure sits at 0.5 at all times.


 That's not correct....*contact the retailer and explain in detail to them*. It's not the same "problem|" as robti described because his pressure increases.

If you raise the brew lever and draw water from the group for a few seconds, the steam pressure needle should start to rise, slowly at first then increasing in speed. If you do not pull any more water it will start to settle down again. During an espresso shot is will be rising for about 30s slowly at first then faster, reaching around 1.4 ish bar

just make sure you have understood the functions of the two switches revealed by the drip tray.


----------



## AC30

Pulled another 2 double shots this morning. After each shot only a very slight rise from 0.5 and then nothing. After pulling the shots I lifted the lever and allowed water to flow freely for about 10 secs but again only a slight rise to .6 or .7 before stopping. I could hear the boiler kick in only for a few seconds.

I watched your latte Americano video and the behaviour of your steam pressure was different to mine and I was essentially doing the same thing.

When I flip the side switch up to top "I" position it immediately begins building steam pressure which I can control with the front 3 way switch. I assume that is wrong also as it appears to be entering steam priority mode.

I thought maybe the switch was just wired upside-down but must be more to it.


----------



## DavecUK

AC30 said:


> Pulled another 2 double shots this morning. After each shot only a very slight rise from 0.5 and then nothing. After pulling the shots I lifted the lever and allowed water to flow freely for about 10 secs but again only a slight rise to .6 or .7 before stopping. I could hear the boiler kick in only for a few seconds.
> 
> I watched your latte Americano video and the behaviour of your steam pressure was different to mine and I was essentially doing the same thing.
> 
> *When I flip the side switch up to top "I" position it immediately begins building steam pressure which I can control with the front 3 way switch. I assume that is wrong also as it appears to be entering steam priority mode.*
> 
> I thought maybe the switch was just wired upside-down but must be more to it.


 I think you are getting your switches confused and in the wrong setting. I've bolded the bit that's concerning and where I think you are using the wrong side switch setting.. and are actually in HX mode when you "think" you are in coffee priority mode. Watch the video for more info.

Set up 3 way rocker switch to middle position (0) and the right hand side switch to the 1 position up (for coffee priority). When you first make the change, *leave it to settle down for 15 minutes, I can't remember but the action of flipping the switch to coffee priority might well induce a steam boost..*


----------



## AC30

I will do a more in depth analysis this evening. But looking at your video I am sure my brew/steam priority switch is the opposite of yours.

Leaving the 3 way switch on its central position and only using the side priority switch this is roughly what happens:

In the down or "0" position the machine settles on 0.5 bar

In the up "I" position it settled over 1 bar

I am assuming I should expect to see higher steam pressure in the Steam Priority mode once the machine has settled? Therefore I believe when my switch is up I am actually in Steam priority rather than Brew priority.


----------



## DavecUK

It's easy to tell, if you are in coffee priority raising the brew lever and drawing a second or so water from the group will result in the steam boosting. If it doesn't, then you're possibly in HX mode....in the mode the boiler will react like any other HX machine and vary a tiny bit but not a huge amount..

Try what I suggested and see what happens with the right hand switch in the 1 position and then the 0 position, after you lift the group lever and draw a few ml of water from the group only.

Just remember to let it settle after changing the switch position


----------



## AC30

Will do, appreciate your input.


----------



## stickyz

So , after playing (and Enjoying) the machine in the last few days , i have to admit I am not sure I understood whats special about the new feature unlike other HX machines. 
Important to mention i am coming from single boiler machine (PL42).

I have had the machine setup on 0 or I (espresso or Steaming mode) and got same (good) results while trying to make my cappuchinos. what am i missing here?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

stickyz said:


> So , after playing (and Enjoying) the machine in the last few days , i have to admit I am not sure I understood whats special about the new feature unlike other HX machines.
> Important to mention i am coming from single boiler machine (PL42).
> 
> I have had the machine setup on 0 or I (espresso or Steaming mode) and got same (good) results while trying to make my cappuchinos. what am i missing here?


 IF you leave in steam priority mode (presumably this functionality disables the "cleverness" of the MaraX), you'll require a cooling flush. Try it: Let the machine warm up for 35 minutes or more. Draw water from the group. It will be steaming hot!


----------



## DavecUK

stickyz said:


> So , after playing (and Enjoying) the machine in the last few days , i have to admit I am not sure I understood whats special about the new feature unlike other HX machines.
> Important to mention i am coming from single boiler machine (PL42).
> 
> I have had the machine setup on 0 or I (espresso or Steaming mode) and got same (good) results while trying to make my cappuchinos. what am i missing here?


 If you have not read my review and watched the videos, they might help make things clearer. If you have already done that, try looking at the review and videos again now you have had a bit more time with the machine.


----------



## stickyz

I feel bad you have to send me again to the review and vids but you were right in a way (and I am sure i wouldnt even buy it without reading your review from the beginning so thanks for that).

I just feel weird after everything i was reading in the last few years about cooling flushes and HX and experiencing SB to just go and brew my coffee (Lift the handle and Voila, good coffee).

I guess this machine is doing its magic .


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

stickyz said:


> ... but you were right in a way (and I am sure i wouldnt even buy it without reading your review from the beginning so thanks for that).


 "In a way"... 🙂

It's an interesting thing for sure. I read and re-read the MaraX review (and I don't even have one!), and decided to go for the Elizabeth. I've read and re-read it... And now I got the machine (Elizabeth)... I'm reading and watching all over again. As Dave says, your perception changes once you have the machine. I certainly now understand more and can relate to the videos and write-ups more that I have the machine with me. 👍


----------



## stickyz

@MediumRoastSteam, I guess the Elizabeth is not a bad choice either , I was actually considering it in the last moments because the buttons for the preprogrammed shots would be anice feature for me (since using my eyes i can never estimate the proportion of a 1 shot 30ML..) but i guess i am doomed to use a scale for life 😕 .


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

stickyz said:


> @MediumRoastSteam, I guess the Elizabeth is not a bad choice either , I was actually considering it in the last moments because the buttons for the preprogrammed shots would be anice feature for me (since using my eyes i can never estimate the proportion of a 1 shot 30ML..) but i guess i am doomed to use a scale for life 😕 .


 I don't have the space, hence the Lizzy. You'll never be able to make sure that 100% of the time 32s means 38g in the cup. You'll always need to cut it short or go slightly over. Or you just resign to the fact that "time is king" and accept that. The MaraX is a great choice. I wish I had the space for it.


----------



## stickyz

The space was one of the factors to convince the Mrs... it takes way less space than the pl42 (with the grinder attached


----------



## DavecUK

stickyz said:


> The space was one of the factors to convince the Mrs... it takes way less space than the pl42 (with the grinder attached


 I thought that was a video you posted...clicked aaaand....disappointment (no video)!


----------



## stickyz

DavecUK said:


> I thought that was a video you posted...clicked aaaand....disappointment (no video)!


 the only reason it wasn't posted is because i want to perfect my filming , but , you definately deserve the video if you ask for it . (unfortunately i was too eager to stop it for some reason so i managed to only take a photo of the shot after that ) .


----------



## DavecUK

Nice, try loosening up the grind just 1 mark on the Niche and see how you go.


----------



## Rira

The Mara is my first espresso setup. I am current dialing for 2:1 ratio. So 37g out from 18.5g in 25 seconds. Using medium roast beans. Should I be aiming for longer extraction time to take into account of the preinfusion? What is working for other people in terms of dose extraction time and ratio?


----------



## Rob1

Rira said:


> The Mara is my first espresso setup. I am current dialing for 2:1 ratio. So 37g out from 18.5g in 25 seconds. Using medium roast beans. Should I be aiming for longer extraction time to take into account of the preinfusion? What is working for other people in terms of dose extraction time and ratio?


 What grinder are you using and how does the shot taste?


----------



## Rira

Rob1 said:


> What grinder are you using and how does the shot taste?


 I have a eureka atom. I adjust to the point between sour and bitter. Can't say I ever find a sweet tasting spot between them though. Its more a balance I achieve. The tasting notes in the bean description start to come thru. I'm happy with it, Just interested in expiermenting. See if there is any Mara X specific tips out there. Or different methods of extracting than by weight.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Rira said:


> I have a eureka atom. I adjust to the point between sour and bitter. Can't say I ever find a sweet tasting spot between them though. Its more a balance I achieve. The tasting notes in the bean description start to come thru. I'm happy with it, Just interested in expiermenting. See if there is any Mara X specific tips out there. Or different methods of extracting than by weight.


 Why not try different ratios? Like, 1.5:1 or 2.5:1 and see what you like? Also, which basket are you using? A VST basket will make things better, tastewise. What about bottomless portafilter? Whilst it doesn't change taste, it will allow you to see any defects with your basket preparation.


----------



## PD2020

Rira said:


> The Mara is my first espresso setup. I am current dialing for 2:1 ratio. So 37g out from 18.5g in 25 seconds. Using medium roast beans. Should I be aiming for longer extraction time to take into account of the preinfusion? What is working for other people in terms of dose extraction time and ratio?


 Hi Rira,

I'm new to the world of espresso, MaraX is my first machine, Niche - the first grinder. And I am getting into similar time range as yours.

Here's couple of examples.

1. Beans: Rave Chatswood (darker roast), rested 10 days, currently approaching 1 month since the roast date

https://ravecoffee.co.uk/products/chatswood-blend?variant=3151005548570

18g in - 35g out - in 26s

Temperature switch at 0, basket VST 18g, Niche grind setting 18 (used to be around 12 before I cleaned/calibrated it as per DaveC's video; not that the number matters really), grind into the cup, transfer the grinds to the portafilter with a funnel, stir with cocktail stick to get nice fluffy grinds, make the surface "putting green" like with the cocktail stick, 2 gentle taps on the right side of the portafilter, 2 gentle taps on the left, 2 horizontal taps on the rubber mat to collapse air bubbles, tamp evenly with the red Lelit MaraX tamper 58.5, remove the leftover grinds from the rim and the lugs of the portafilter, gently stick the portafilter into the grouphead and immediately start the shot, put the glass on my scales, observe the bottomless portafilter produce a nice even tiger-striped extraction (that tends to be the norm since I introduced WDT/stirring), cut the shot at 35g. Rinse and repeat on different grind settings to find the balanced spot between sour/bitter.

I have to say that I've got some consistency now and I get repeatable taste/time out of this workflow.

I don't really have a frame of reference, but I have had some lovely lattes and occasionally quite drinkable espresso, mostly with some minor bitter undertone (I'm not espresso drinker yet, so maybe you wouldn't feel that "bitter"). I think the lattes are comparable to some of my favourite coffee shops, e.g. Notes at Canary Wharf in London.

They huge improvement for me has been introduction of WDT/stirring the grinds. My guess is that I grind finer that the videos on the Internet, and when I tried distributing by tapping the sides of the portafilter, the grinds were becoming really rigid and would eventually not move; you would also see cracks creating between the grinds if trying to force a move with a slightly stronger than the usual tap. It's as if they were ground too fine, and stick more easily; rather than having nice movable sandy texture. But when I move towards that coarser texture, the shot gushes out super quick.

2. Beans: Rave Decaf (medium/dark roast): rested 10 days, currently approaching 1 month since the roast date

https://ravecoffee.co.uk/collections/espresso-coffee-beans/products/seasonal-decaf-blend?variant=3160903417882

15.5g in -> 31g out - in 22s

Same prep-up but the basket is VST 15g, finer grind setting (currently Niche setting 15, and 9 before I cleaned/calibrated the grinder), I avoid any gentle side taps because the grind is so fine it's going to create cracks/channels, just one most gentle vertical tap on the rubber mat, the rest pretty much the same. Again mostly nice even extraction with some tigery special effects 😉

Lattes really lovely. With these beans I once pulled off my best espresso ever. It had zero bitterness and zero sourness, perfectly balanced, slightly sweet, both me and my girlfriend being latte-drinkers enjoyed the espresso on its own without milk. The time was the usual 22s but it was ground coarser at Niche's 15.5 setting. I tried to repeat it but usually 15.5 gushes too quickly. Again, once dialed in I get nice consistent results and repeatable time, so I think the technique is okay. I find the beans a bit moody however, and they need re-dialing-in every day - as opposed to Chatswood which is more constant. Maybe that depends on temperature or humidity, not sure.

3. Other comments

I use Osmio Water which I slightly remineralise with sodium bicarb and epsom salts to the SCAA recommended level. Output being KH40, GH 68, TDS always around 110.

The temperature switch is set to 0 (low). The eco-energy-saving mode is turned off. The machine is in the MaraX mode (not the plain HX mode).

I tried reducing the pump pressure by tweaking the OPV down from 10.2 to 9.5 against a blind basket. Not sure it made a major difference.

Beans are kept in ceramic Airscape containers, about 40cm away from the machine which as any E61 produces emits some warmth and I imagine humidity.

I'm using IMS35 Shower screen and the red Cafelat silicone gasket (because it's meant to be better for cleaning).

I clean all the baskets and the shower every day with liquid soap and toothbrush, follow my series of shots with a water backflush, last weekend I performed my first Cafiza backflush after a month of using the machine; followed up by re-lubing the cam with Molykote 111.

My goal now is get the clarity of flavour and balance that I have once managed to pull off with the Decaf beans. Not sure why shot times are shorter to what, for example, DaveC reported (around 35-38s). Big question mark is why I struggle with palm tapping on the sides on the portafilter because the grinds seem to stick...


----------



## Boxerman33

I received my MaraX in the first batch of deliveries back in March/April, using a Ceado E92 grinder. On brew priority, setting one and i'me using a whole load of different beans (currently have 7 or 8 different types but all in the medium roast range)

Typical shot target is 22g in and 45-48g out, sometimes a little more if i'm experimenting ,

From lifting the lever, so including the 10 second or so preinfusion, i aim for around 44-48 second shot time.

Took some time getting the grinder dialled in but i now seem to have most beans covered with a small range of lever adjustments.


----------



## mexes

cengland117 said:


> Today marks a sad day indeed...my machine is definitely experiencing technical issues. This morning, I switched it on as usual to heat up, it went through it's usual boost procedure to reach temperature. It did that and normally the steam pressure gauge gradually falls to 0.5 bar where it will stay until the pump is engaged. Today it wouldn't fall below 1.5. And strangely, would occasionally boost the boiler again bringing it up to 2.5...the result being super heated brew water. This was on temperature setting 0 and brew priority mode. I imagine there was an issue with the temperature sensor as it seems to be really confused about what temperature it was aiming for. Back to Bella Barista I go...


 Hey!
I received my machine yesterday and so far, I was pretty happy. But now, I experience exactly the same issue  
Almost impossible to brew a coffee with brewing water being that hot.

How did you solve this issue?


----------



## PD2020

cengland117 said:


> Today marks a sad day indeed...my machine is definitely experiencing technical issues. This morning, I switched it on as usual to heat up, it went through it's usual boost procedure to reach temperature. It did that and normally the steam pressure gauge gradually falls to 0.5 bar where it will stay until the pump is engaged. Today it wouldn't fall below 1.5. And strangely, would occasionally boost the boiler again bringing it up to 2.5...the result being super heated brew water. This was on temperature setting 0 and brew priority mode. I imagine there was an issue with the temperature sensor as it seems to be really confused about what temperature it was aiming for. Back to Bella Barista I go...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





mexes said:


> Hey!
> I received my machine yesterday and so far, I was pretty happy. But now, I experience exactly the same issue
> Almost impossible to brew a coffee with brewing water being that hot.
> 
> How did you solve this issue?


 Hi Mexes,

With my MaraX when I turn the machine on it reaches 0.5-0.7 bar after approximately 30 minutes. That's the normal level of steam pressure stability. However if I don't do any shots and let the machine run, then after 45-60 min or so (I should probably measure the exact time point), the steam pressure weirdly auto-decides to move up and stabilises not around the expected 0.5-0.7 but instead something like 0.9-1.5 etc (again, exact values I'd have to measure). And it just sits at that higher level of pressure stability until I let some water out of the grouphead.

This is in fact my workaround - to let some water out of the group head. As soon as you do that, you'll see the expected steam pressure boost (the machine is helpfully anticipating milk steaming) and you'll have to wait the usual 15 minutes for the machine to stabilise again. Whatever the steam pressure was, now it will come back to 0.5-0.7 bar, and it will stay at the 0.5-0.7 bar territory for the whole day, as expected (except of course for the temporary 15 min boost anticipating some milk steaming after every shot to come). It doesn't matter if I leave the machine on until the evening, or pull shots at random times during the day, it will always come back to the 0.5-0.7 level (eventually) and stay there.

This trick seems to work at any point of time. I've done it at the 30 min time point and it came back to the expected level of stability at 0.5-0.7. I've done it at 1h time point when MaraX was sitting at the higher level of stability (0.9-1.5 bar), and it helped it to come back to the range of 0.5-0.7. I think I tried letting some water out immediately after turning the machine on and that works too (I should try that again to confirm it). You just gotta do it once and you're good.

In other words as soon as I run some water through the group head, it becomes super predictable.

I don't see it as a big issue because either:

- I make my coffee 30 min after turning the machine on and then turn it off (weekdays when I work),

- or I leave the machine on for the whole day to practise making espresso in which case I start the day by letting some water out of the grouphead and then it always eventually stabilises around 0.5-0.7 bar during the day

I hope this makes some sense. Let me know if this is the same issue you're facing please.

Edit: I'm happy to record a video or a timelapse of this during the weekend, if you find it would help to make things clearer


----------



## Jason11

PD2020 said:


> Hi Mexes,
> With my MaraX when I turn the machine on it reaches 0.5-0.7 bar after approximately 30 minutes. That's the normal level of steam pressure stability. However if I don't do any shots and let the machine run, then after 45-60 min or so (I should probably measure the exact time point), the steam pressure weirdly auto-decides to move up and stabilises not around the expected 0.5-0.7 but instead something like 0.9-1.5 etc (again, exact values I'd have to measure). And it just sits at that higher level of pressure stability until I let some water out of the grouphead.
> This is in fact my workaround - to let some water out of the group head. As soon as you do that, you'll see the expected steam pressure boost (the machine is helpfully anticipating milk steaming) and you'll have to wait the usual 15 minutes for the machine to stabilise again. Whatever the steam pressure was, now it will come back to 0.5-0.7 bar, and it will stay at the 0.5-0.7 bar territory for the whole day, as expected (except of course for the temporary 15 min boost anticipating some milk steaming after every shot to come). It doesn't matter if I leave the machine on until the evening, or pull shots at random times during the day, it will always come back to the 0.5-0.7 level (eventually) and stay there.
> This trick seems to work at any point of time. I've done it at the 30 min time point and it came back to the expected level of stability at 0.5-0.7. I've done it at 1h time point when MaraX was sitting at the higher level of stability (0.9-1.5 bar), and it helped it to come back to the range of 0.5-0.7. I think I tried letting some water out immediately after turning the machine on and that works too (I should try that again to confirm it). You just gotta do it once and you're good.
> In other words as soon as I run some water through the group head, it becomes super predictable.
> I don't see it as a big issue because either:
> - I make my coffee 30 min after turning the machine on and then turn it off (weekdays when I work),
> - or I leave the machine on for the whole day to practise making espresso in which case I start the day by letting some water out of the grouphead and then it always eventually stabilises around 0.5-0.7 bar during the day
> I hope this makes some sense. Let me know if this is the same issue you're facing please.
> Edit: I'm happy to record a video or a timelapse of this during the weekend, if you find it would help to make things clearer


Do you have a grouphead thermometer ?

The MaraX is a clever bit of kit and I would have thought whether the service boiler pressure was in the 0.5-0.7 or 0.9-1.5 range the brew temperature would be very similar. After pulling your shot and steaming I reckon it would settle down to the lower pressure without having to raise the lever when at the higher level
Like you've been doing.

Be interested to hear if this is the case ?


----------



## mexes

PD2020 said:


> Hi Mexes,
> 
> With my MaraX when I turn the machine on it reaches 0.5-0.7 bar after approximately 30 minutes. That's the normal level of steam pressure stability. However if I don't do any shots and let the machine run, then after 45-60 min or so (I should probably measure the exact time point), the steam pressure weirdly auto-decides to move up and stabilises not around the expected 0.5-0.7 but instead something like 0.9-1.5 etc (again, exact values I'd have to measure). And it just sits at that higher level of pressure stability until I let some water out of the grouphead.
> 
> This is in fact my workaround - to let some water out of the group head. As soon as you do that, you'll see the expected steam pressure boost (the machine is helpfully anticipating milk steaming) and you'll have to wait the usual 15 minutes for the machine to stabilise again. Whatever the steam pressure was, now it will come back to 0.5-0.7 bar, and it will stay at the 0.5-0.7 bar territory for the whole day, as expected (except of course for the temporary 15 min boost anticipating some milk steaming after every shot to come). It doesn't matter if I leave the machine on until the evening, or pull shots at random times during the day, it will always come back to the 0.5-0.7 level (eventually) and stay there.
> 
> This trick seems to work at any point of time. I've done it at the 30 min time point and it came back to the expected level of stability at 0.5-0.7. I've done it at 1h time point when MaraX was sitting at the higher level of stability (0.9-1.5 bar), and it helped it to come back to the range of 0.5-0.7. I think I tried letting some water out immediately after turning the machine on and that works too (I should try that again to confirm it). You just gotta do it once and you're good.
> 
> In other words as soon as I run some water through the group head, it becomes super predictable.
> 
> I don't see it as a big issue because either:
> 
> - I make my coffee 30 min after turning the machine on and then turn it off (weekdays when I work),
> 
> - or I leave the machine on for the whole day to practise making espresso in which case I start the day by letting some water out of the grouphead and then it always eventually stabilises around 0.5-0.7 bar during the day
> 
> I hope this makes some sense. Let me know if this is the same issue you're facing please.
> 
> Edit: I'm happy to record a video or a timelapse of this during the weekend, if you find it would help to make things clearer


 Hi PD2020,

Thank you for your reply. I just tested if the boiler pressure would eventually decrease again after letting water out of the grouphead, but it appears that my machine has some kind of problem with the temperature sensor. Even on PID Setting 0, the boiler pressure stays at 1 bar! With PID Setting 1 it stays at 1.5 bar, even after letting it sit for about 15-20 minutes. Therefore, the water coming out of the grouphead is boiling hot (I tested it with 2 K-Sensors, it's around 100 °C as expected with that pressure). What's even more confusing is the fact, that the machine was working properly on the first day I received it, on the next day, I started getting super hot temperatures and the issue with the boiler pressure not settling. Even after switching it on it settles at around 0.8 bar at PID setting 0 after 30 minutes, which yields a temperature of around 96-98 °C. So something is clearly wrong with the electronics/programming now 😕



Jason11 said:


> The MaraX is a clever bit of kit and I would have thought whether the service boiler pressure was in the 0.5-0.7 or 0.9-1.5 range the brew temperature would be very similar. After pulling your shot and steaming I reckon it would settle down to the lower pressure without having to raise the lever when at the higher level
> Like you've been doing.


 I was thinking the same, it looks like there is an error in the programming maybe... Because there is no reason for the machine to heat up again if you are not using it. That's actually the reason they invented coffee priority mode, so you don't have to flush and it always has the right temperature for coffee brewing. But I tested the temperatures, and they are, as expected, at around 100 °C. I will contact Lelit and see, what they have to say.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

mexes said:


> Hi PD2020,
> 
> Thank you for your reply. I just tested if the boiler pressure would eventually decrease again after letting water out of the grouphead, but it appears that my machine has some kind of problem with the temperature sensor. Even on PID Setting 0, the boiler pressure stays at 1 bar! With PID Setting 1 it stays at 1.5 bar, even after letting it sit for about 15-20 minutes. Therefore, the water coming out of the grouphead is boiling hot (I tested it with 2 K-Sensors, it's around 100 °C as expected with that pressure). What's even more confusing is the fact, that the machine was working properly on the first day I received it, on the next day, I started getting super hot temperatures and the issue with the boiler pressure not settling. Even after switching it on it settles at around 0.8 bar at PID setting 0 after 30 minutes, which yields a temperature of around 96-98 °C. So something is clearly wrong with the electronics/programming now 😕
> 
> I was thinking the same, it looks like there is an error in the programming maybe... Because there is no reason for the machine to heat up again if you are not using it. That's actually the reason they invented coffee priority mode, so you don't have to flush and it always has the right temperature for coffee brewing. But I tested the temperatures, and they are, as expected, at around 100 °C. I will contact Lelit and see, what they have to say.


 Are you 100% sure your machine is in brew priority mode (as opposed to steam priority mode)?


----------



## mexes

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Are you 100% sure your machine is in brew priority mode (as opposed to steam priority mode)?


 Yes.


----------



## mexes

So I wrote with Lelit and they told me to flush the grouphead with half a liter of water, when the machine is as cold as possible (i.e. when you switch it on for the first time of the day), to get any air out of the HX (otherwise it wouldn't work, like in my case, when it was boiling hot and only bubbling water was coming out of the GH which would again allow air to come inside the HX). And that indeed was the problem! It now works again as expected, and that also explains why it works what @PD2020 was doing. So in some cases, there might be air inside the HX, that's why it's not able to correctly measure the temperature inside the HX and starts heating "randomly", although the machine is idling. Therefore, you should flush the grouphead when you just switched on the machine to prevent this. Hope this helps someone else if he/she comes across this problem.

Take care!


----------



## PD2020

Love it. Thank you so much, Mexes. I'll give it a go tomorrow.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Although... once the circuit is primed, you should not need flushing half litre. Maybe 30ml, but defo not half litre.

i do that with the Elizabeth too, for a similar reason, every day, first thing, 20ml out. That was a tip given to me by DavecUK. 👍


----------



## cengland117

mexes said:


> Hey!
> I received my machine yesterday and so far, I was pretty happy. But now, I experience exactly the same issue
> Almost impossible to brew a coffee with brewing water being that hot.
> 
> How did you solve this issue?


 A replacement machine solved the issue! 😅

I've just read your post about air getting trapped in the HX as a potential culprit. Personally I am not sure if it could be attributed to that in my case as the issue was experienced every time I switched the machine on. Was I just unlucky to keep getting air trapped? And if I was, surely there is a design flaw there somewhere?

Anyway, good to hear you have managed to sort yours out!


----------



## mexes

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Although... once the circuit is primed, you should not need flushing half litre. Maybe 30ml, but defo not half litre.


 Exactly, that's also how I do it now. You should only flush that much water, if you experience that problem for the first time, just to be sure, that there is no air left in the HX. After that, 20 ml is enough.


----------



## mexes

cengland117 said:


> I've just read your post about air getting trapped in the HX as a potential culprit. Personally I am not sure if it could be attributed to that in my case as the issue was experienced every time I switched the machine on. Was I just unlucky to keep getting air trapped? And if I was, surely there is a design flaw there somewhere?


 Well, maybe you indeed had a defect machine. But I had the exact same problem as you (machine heating up randomly while idling, pressure staying at 1.5 bar for over 20 minutes...) whereas switching the machine on/off also didn't solve the problem. So I'm pretty sure you also just head air inside the HX. I wouldn't say it's a real design flaw, because if you flush a little bit of water when the machine is still cold, Mara works really well and predictable.


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Although... once the circuit is primed, you should not need flushing half litre. Maybe 30ml, but defo not half litre.
> 
> i do that with the Elizabeth too, for a similar reason, every day, first thing, 20ml out. That was a tip given to me by DavecUK. 👍


 No, not for this reason and only 20ml for the first coffee of the day. Its a pro tip, not to solve a problem. I will explain why I always do it with all machines over a coffee one day.

As you say though, 500ml is excessive.


----------



## cengland117

mexes said:


> Well, maybe you indeed had a defect machine. But I had the exact same problem as you (machine heating up randomly while idling, pressure staying at 1.5 bar for over 20 minutes...) whereas switching the machine on/off also didn't solve the problem. So I'm pretty sure you also just head air inside the HX. I wouldn't say it's a real design flaw, because if you flush a little bit of water when the machine is still cold, Mara works really well and predictable.


 You may well be right, who knows. But unless lelit are designing them intentionally to get air trapped and unless they are designed to require a flush when cold, there is a flaw somewhere. It's good you have a solution to get the machine working as it should but if you are continuously needing to do it, then the problem hasn't really been solved.


----------



## PD2020

mexes said:


> Exactly, that's also how I do it now. You should only flush that much water, if you experience that problem for the first time, just to be sure, that there is no air left in the HX. After that, 20 ml is enough.


 Hi Mexes,

I have flushed 500ml of cool water through the group head first thing in the morning today. As expected the machine was ready to use after around 30 min and idling at 0.5-0.7 bar of steam pressure.

I made myself a latte, turned MaraX off and 3 hour later I turned it back on again. It's been running now for about 2.5 hours and it's idling at 0.7-1.4 bar. That means the 0.5L flush hasn't really changed anything and I still need to flush some water every single time I turn the machine on to get to the expected idle stability of 0.5-0.7 bar.

From what I understand other people don't face this, it seems it's currently just the of us. If you don't mind, please try *not to* flush 20-30 ml when you turn your machine on to, just let it start and see what happens with the steam pressure. I have a feeling the trick of running 0.5L cold water through the group head hasn't really changed anything for me, or in other words - I might have as well run 30 ml and would have achieved the same effect.


----------



## mexes

cengland117 said:


> You may well be right, who knows. But unless lelit are designing them intentionally to get air trapped and unless they are designed to require a flush when cold, there is a flaw somewhere. It's good you have a solution to get the machine working as it should but if you are continuously needing to do it, then the problem hasn't really been solved.


 Hm yes, actually you are right if I think about it. On another forum I read, that Lelit actually "solved" that problem by letting the machine automatically turn on the pump occasionally after pulling a shot, to pump water into the HX (and excess water is pushed into the drip tray in that moment). I always thought that it would do that to cool down the HX faster after steam boosting. Maybe anyone knows the technical details about why it is doing that? As in my case, when there was still air inside the HX, it was NOT activating the pump, indicating that it was thinking that the water was too cool (and therefore overheating). Moreover, I found out, that the technical term for that problem is "thermosyphon stalling" and the air inside the HX is preventing the water from correctly circulating. The temperature sensor actually is at the bottom of the HX, that's why it thinks that the boiler needs more heating in that case.



PD2020 said:


> From what I understand other people don't face this, it seems it's currently just us two. If you don't mind, please try *not to* flush 20-30 ml when you turn your machine on to, just let it start and see what happens with the steam pressure. I have a feeling the trick of running 0.5L cold water through the grouphead hasn't really changed anything for me, or in other words - I might have as well run 30 ml and would have achieved the same effect.


 Okay, I will try that and let you know. Btw.: Does your machine occasionally pump water into the HX while it heats up? Mine actually does that, so maybe it tries to prevent thermosyphon stalling and cools the HX at the same time.


----------



## PD2020

Hi Mexes,

Thanks. And yes, it has always pumped the water, just a little bit a time, during the initial 30 min warmup and I think anytime really. It's what another_jim wrote in his review on Home Barista - that's how MaraX prevents thermosyphon stalls.

My newbie gut feeling is that our problem of idling too high is either not stall related, or perhaps it is but the stall is recreated every single time by something occurring only in the initial 30 min warmup.


----------



## siliconslave

it seems the hot water output is nigh on useless (with the exception of warm a cup maybe) are there any options for removal / replacement with a stubby as on the Londinium for example:










(photo pinched from MildredM's thread)

It needs the dial for balance, but i'm not convinced the wand flapping around is really adding anything


----------



## KyNg

Hi All i'm new here i've just bought this several days ago as my first hx machine so far enjoy it..

Actually from what i've read earlier. I think mine have the same issue i tried to turn it on for quite long time yesterday it's working fine on brew prio when idle steam bar aroun 0.7 the suddenly after several hours out of no where it raises up to 1.5 bar.. i don't know what happen is it normal.. but now it's working just fine the steam bar and everything.. when it's happen should i flush out 20ml? Then what happen to the temp on gh is it will drop and we have to wait again for 15 min or something? Thanks guys


----------



## robti

Anyone put anything from the maraX into the dishwasher ?

Thanks


----------



## mexes

PD2020 said:


> My newbie gut feeling is that our problem of idling too high is either not stall related, or perhaps it is but the stall is recreated every single time by something occurring only in the initial 30 min warmup.


 Hey PD2020,

So today I tested if that problem would occur again without flushing water and yes, it unfortunately does. I'm pretty sure it's stall related, and I was thinking about why that happens. Maybe there is a way of air getting trapped when I backflush the machine in the evening. I need to check if purging the machine after backflushing fixes that, but I'm pretty sure I always did that. Just need to double-check next time.



KyNg said:


> Actually from what i've read earlier. I think mine have the same issue i tried to turn it on for quite long time yesterday it's working fine on brew prio when idle steam bar aroun 0.7 the suddenly after several hours out of no where it raises up to 1.5 bar.. i don't know what happen is it normal.. but now it's working just fine the steam bar and everything.. when it's happen should i flush out 20ml? Then what happen to the temp on gh is it will drop and we have to wait again for 15 min or something? Thanks guys


 Yes, for me at least that works. I just flush the machine with 20 ml and then wait, until it starts cooling down again. Usually that works, but when this problem occurred the first time for me, it didn't work and the machine stayed at those 1.5 bar, as I probably had a lot of air inside the HX. So in that case, you should switch off the machine and wait, until it cools down and flush again.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

robti said:


> Anyone put anything from the maraX into the dishwasher ?
> 
> Thanks


 Why would you need to do that? I suppose you could put the baskets and shower screen.... but just cleaning it with a scrubbing brush and water and a tiny drop of washing up liquid, rinse it and you are good to go again.

remember, the dishwasher doesn't scrub anything.


----------



## robti

Was thinking about the drip tray and grill, and water tank, saves me buying dish washing fluid but will buy some for the MaraX


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

robti said:


> Was thinking about the drip tray and grill, and water tank, saves me buying dish washing fluid but will buy some for the MaraX


 You are crazy! 😂 Have you seen inside your dishwasher? Would I want that in my water tank? Bits of food floating about? Errrr.... No Thanks!

drip tray and grill.... i mentioned this before: you need nothing more than a slightly moisten microfibre cloth and a dry Microfibre cloth To keep your machine nice and shiny.

for inside the drip tray, wipe of excess coffee with a moisten kitchen towel. Then dry it up. If it's really *that *bad, a tiny amount of backflush detergent will remove any of the oils. Or you can do that when you chemically backflush the group, as the detergent will end up in the drip tray anyway.


----------



## robti

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You are crazy! 😂 Have you seen inside your dishwasher? Would I want that in my water tank? Bits of food floating about? Errrr.... No Thanks!
> 
> drip tray and grill.... i mentioned this before: you need nothing more than a slightly moisten microfibre cloth and a dry Microfibre cloth To keep your machine nice and shiny.
> 
> for inside the drip tray, wipe of excess coffee with a moisten kitchen towel. Then dry it up. If it's really *that *bad, a tiny amount of backflush detergent will remove any of the oils. Or you can do that when you chemically backflush the group, as the detergent will end up in the drip tray anyway.


 got a bottle of fairy and all cleaned now and put back together with new silicone group head gasket and new water filter (had them lying about since buying the machine, so why not) 🙂, btw my dishwasher is spotless gets a cleaning cycle every Sunday and i would have sterilised the tank afterwards

opps forgot to say and chemical backflush and cam lube, feeling good first cam lube 😀


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

robti said:


> got a bottle of fairy and all cleaned now and put back together with new silicone group head gasket and new water filter (had them lying about since buying the machine, so why not) 🙂, btw my dishwasher is spotless gets a cleaning cycle every Sunday and i would have sterilised the tank afterwards
> 
> opps forgot to say and chemical backflush and cam lube, feeling good first cam lube 😀


 Let me emphasise my point about only needing water to clean the exterior:

this was my machine, after over 2 years of use. No dishwasher, nothing, only a moisten cloth followed by a dry cloth (microfibre, always!) on the exterior:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/38252-for-sale-profitec-pro-700-dual-boiler-pid-%C2%A31100/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=538901&embedComment=538901&embedDo=findComment#comment-538901


----------



## robti

I use clean water and a microfibre cloth for the exterior as well


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

robti said:


> I use clean water and a microfibre cloth for the exterior as well


 Good! No dishwasher or chemicals! 👍


----------



## Jason11

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Let me emphasise my point about only needing water to clean the exterior:
> this was my machine, after over 2 years of use. No dishwasher, nothing, only a moisten cloth followed by a dry cloth (microfibre, always!) on the exterior:


Can I drop mine off once a month for a full valet?


----------



## KyNg

mexes said:


> Hey PD2020,
> 
> So today I tested if that problem would occur again without flushing water and yes, it unfortunately does. I'm pretty sure it's stall related, and I was thinking about why that happens. Maybe there is a way of air getting trapped when I backflush the machine in the evening. I need to check if purging the machine after backflushing fixes that, but I'm pretty sure I always did that. Just need to double-check next time.
> 
> Yes, for me at least that works. I just flush the machine with 20 ml and then wait, until it starts cooling down again. Usually that works, but when this problem occurred the first time for me, it didn't work and the machine stayed at those 1.5 bar, as I probably had a lot of air inside the HX. So in that case, you should switch off the machine and wait, until it cools down and flush again.


 Hmm will do it next time.. so weird how does the air coming from.. thanks mexes.. please update if you found the solution. Hha

Forgive me since i'm quite new, Btw when do we have to backflush the gh with cafiza or something? And if we do, do we have to lubricate the cams everytime we backflush it? Thanks guys..


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

KyNg said:


> Forgive me since i'm quite new, Btw when do we have to backflush the gh with cafiza or something? And if we do, do we have to lubricate the cams everytime we backflush it? Thanks guys..


 You do indeed, every 4-6 weeks, depending on usage.


----------



## Stanic

2.5 months in, time for a deep clean, which I did yesterday - first wash the shower screen and bottom of the group separately, then a good backflush with Puly, take the group apart, scrub the bits, wipe dry and lube and put it back together. The group was quite clean after the backflushing but still there was some residue, especially on the gaskets of the cam followers, plus the cam was already squeaking. The top part was very clean with minimal smudges from water on the ss mushroom. Now it's all good as new.

Edit: this video is useful, I did use much less lubricant though


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Stanic said:


> 2.5 months in, time for a deep clean, which I did yesterday - first wash the shower screen and bottom of the group separately, then a good backflush with Puly, take the group apart, scrub the bits, wipe dry and lube and put it back together. The group was quite clean after the backflushing but still there was some residue, especially on the gaskets of the cam followers, plus the cam was already squeaking. The top part was very clean with minimal smudges from water on the ss mushroom. Now it's all good as new.
> 
> Edit: this video is useful, I did use much less lubricant though


 It's not clear and apologies if you already do it, but you should really drop the shower screen every few days and clean it. That gets quite dirty in my experience, less so with an IMS shower screen.


----------



## Stanic

MediumRoastSteam said:


> It's not clear and apologies if you already do it, but you should really drop the shower screen every few days and clean it. That gets quite dirty in my experience, less so with an IMS shower screen.


 Yes I do 🙂 at least once a week. With 3-4 drinks a day, mine does get dirty but not very much.

Just wanted to point out that I also did it during the deep clean.


----------



## Martin L

Good day all,

About 3 weeks now since I received my Mara X so I thought I would share my initial observations and feelings about my new machine. It is set for brew priority at the coolest setting (0) and so far I have not experimented with alternative temperatures.

First I should say I have been using a Rancillio Silvia for 18 years until now.

I live in a very soft water area and have not fitted the water softener supplied.

The Mara X looks great, is easy to keep clean and is ready to brew in about 20 minutes, less if it's still warm from previous use.

I have left it in stand-by mode and for me it's not been a problem although I am surprised that switching it on and off will not take it off stand-by, you must lift the lever!

The machine makes good coffee very reliably, I do flush before pulling a shot but that is purely to warm the cups. It is so reliable I have even though of instructing my wife on how to use it!

The steam wand is terrific, you can reliably turn out good quality milk with a little practice. The wand and steam tap feel to be really nice quality.

I do not like the hot water at all, it produces superheated foul tasting water which is no good to anyone save for heating cups and cleaning. I can't believe all HX machines are like this, please tell me I'm right. I've tried drawing water and then letting it cool before adding to coffee but the taste is just ruined.

I use a kettle to produce hot water for long coffees, this annoys me a little as it's a waste of energy, but hey ho I'm slowly getting over it.

For a long milky coffee I add a lot of milk to the espresso then I use the steam wand to heat and froth the milk/coffee mix and then top up with hot water. This really works a treat and produces a silky textured drink if you are into long coffees.

I make 2 or 3 brews per day and I flush the shower screen after very shot. I have only back flushed once so far and have yet to clean using chemicals. I aim to deep clean maybe every two or three months, am I wrong?

It's a good job the drip tray is large because the machine can dump a lot of water at times, mildly irritating because of waste, but I'm getting over it.

I will experiment with brew temperatures once I get my stepless grinder.

Conclusion :- great machine, shame about the hot water!

P.S Just a thought, can you easily remove the shower screen for manual cleaning?


----------



## DavecUK

Martin L said:


> Conclusion :- great machine, shame about the hot water!


 All HXs are like it, in fact in Italy it's not really legal to do your Americano from the hot water spout.

I've found most HX machines give spluttery not great tasting water unless regularly flushed down every day or two (which no one does). When a machine is new there is always a real bad taste in the main boiler for many many litres...I know because I've tested enough new machines. The HX circuit and pipes only contain about 245ml, so 3 litres or so through that system usually gets rid of most of the new taste and then after a week they settle in.

I always advise not to use any machine (DB or HX as a kettle)...there is actually one exception. The Lelit Elizabeth...but that's because it's very clever. I have tried the water from that and it's OK....but you do have to use it regularily for it to be so.


----------



## cuprajake

My machine doesnt even have a hot water dispenser lol

I just just me kettle, tbh even when i had the sage i used the kettle.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake said:


> My machine doesnt even have a hot water dispenser lol
> 
> I just just me kettle, tbh even when i had the sage i used the kettle.


 You should cycle the water from the service boiler. Having a tap is the most convenient way of doing so. Otherwise, you'd need to rely on drain valves (if they are available) or take the vacuum breaker off and syphon the water out that way. And for that, a very discrete, recessive tap would do the trick. I don't know why manufacturers insist on imposing taps!


----------



## cuprajake

mine has drain tap underneath


----------



## Jony

Cuprajake said:


> My machine doesnt even have a hot water dispenser lol
> 
> I just just me kettle, tbh even when i had the sage i used the kettle.


 That's your own fault, just a little reminder 😜


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake said:


> mine has drain tap underneath


 Have you ever bothered emptying it? Which machine do you have?


----------



## Doram

Martin L said:


> I have left it in stand-by mode and for me it's not been a problem although I am surprised that switching it on and off will not take it off stand-by, you must lift the lever!


 If it's it in stand-by mode and you turn the electricity off and on again from the socket, it will turn the machine back on without lifting the lever.

I only got mine yesterday, put it on a smart socket and this is how it works for me. It means I can leave the on/off switch on the machine permanently on, and turn Mara on from the phone/alexa/google home without being next to it (because I don't need to lift the lever). If the socket is off, I just need to turn it on. If the socket is already on but the machine is in stand-by mode, I turn the socket off, then back on, and the machine starts to heat. This is very convenient for me + the machine is never left on for hours when I don't need it to.


----------



## cuprajake

Jony said:


> That's your own fault, just a little reminder 😜


 yeah i know, but tis what it is, at the time £££ was an issue



MediumRoastSteam said:


> Have you ever bothered emptying it? Which machine do you have?


 i havent tbh


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake said:


> yeah i know, but tis what it is, at the time £££ was an issue
> 
> i havent tbh


 When I had my machines a while ago I also never bothered. But, if you have a service boiler on an HX or DB, you must refresh the water periodically, as limescale and other solids precipitate to the bottom of the boiler, eventually scaling. Do a test and check the TDS of your service boiler. People also wonder why the water in the service boiler taste horrible... 🙂

One of those things I learnt from a few very experienced people here (Not me!)


----------



## cuprajake

food for though,

i do only ever use bottled water, but as you say worth a check


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake said:


> food for though,
> 
> i do only ever use bottled water, but as you say worth a check


 No difference. Look at those TDS in the bottle. Those are dissolvable solids. Steam is pure water, so the rest... precipitates to the bottom.

which machine have you?


----------



## stickyz

I am still puzzled about the standby mode to be honest , since if i go to the machine after long time it hasnt been used , it doesnt take whole extra 20minutes to heat , so why disable it? (I read dave's review again before but still didn't figure it out)


----------



## Doram

stickyz said:


> I am still puzzled about the standby mode to be honest , since if i go to the machine after long time it hasnt been used , it doesnt take whole extra 20minutes to heat , so why disable it? (I read dave's review again before but still didn't figure it out)


 I believe it depends on how you want to use the machine. If you want to leave it on all day (or for prolonged periods) so it's ready whenever you want to use it, then you need to disable stand-by mode. If you prefer to conserve energy and have the machine turn itself off after half an hour (I think mine takes a bit more than 30 minutes, which I like) - then stand-by mode is for you.


----------



## stickyz

My point is the "reheating" after bringing it back from standby is really short (less than 5 minutes on my last check)


----------



## Doram

stickyz said:


> My point is the "reheating" after bringing it back from standby is really short (less than 5 minutes on my last check)


 Exactly, which is why I like this feature. It conserves energy and hardly impacts waiting times (unless you leave it long enough to get completely cold, in which case I don't want it to be on all that time).
I quite liked this feature even on the Silvia, without the e61 head which stays hot longer, and without the remote control with a smart socket. So on the Mara X it's even better.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> Exactly, which is why I like this feature. It conserves energy and hardly impacts waiting times (unless you leave it long enough to get completely cold, in which case I don't want it to be on all that time).
> I quite liked this feature even on the Silvia, without the e61 head which stays hot longer, and without the remote control with a smart socket. So on the Mara X it's even better.


 Surely the group will eventually cool down? I can see it being 5 minutes to heat the water in the boiler, but not to bring the group back to a stable temperature.


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Surely the group will eventually cool down? I can see it being 5 minutes to heat the water in the boiler, but not to bring the group back to a stable temperature.


 Of course it will cool down, but it will heat up again faster than it would from cold.
It's a personal choice. I don't make many drinks a day, so I prefer to plan ahead and/or wait a bit longer for the machine to re-heat if it went to stand-by. It's good that there is an option to turn the feature off, so owners can choose whatever suits their lifestyle and preference.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> Of course it will cool down, but it will heat up again faster than it would from cold.


 No worries Doram, I'm just trying to understand here. I'm not questioning usefulness of the feature. If that feature works for you, great.

I'm just trying to understand why would it make it faster to heat up from standby rather than from cold. Does the standby feature keep the boiler's heating element very low or something? What difference does that make over physically turning the machine's main switch off?


----------



## stickyz

MediumRoastSteam said:


> No worries Doram, I'm just trying to understand here. I'm not questioning usefulness of the feature. If that feature works for you, great.
> 
> I'm just trying to understand why would it make it faster to heat up from standby rather than from cold. Does the standby feature keep the boiler's heating element very low or something? What difference does that make over physically turning the machine's main switch off?


 Exactly what i think (wonder). thanks for writing it better than I can.


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I'm just trying to understand why would it make it faster to heat up from standby rather than from cold. Does the standby feature keep the boiler's heating element very low or something? What difference does that make over physically turning the machine's main switch off?


 Oh, I see what you mean. As far as I understand it, for heat retention going into stand-by is the same as switching the machine off.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> Oh, I see what you mean. As far as I understand it, for heat retention going into stand-by is the same as switching the machine off.


 OK. Could you then elaborate on this comment? 😉



Doram said:


> Of course it will cool down, but it will heat up again faster than it would from cold.


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> OK. Could you then elaborate on this comment? 😉


 Haha, all I meant was that because of heat retention, waiting time will be shorter if the machine went to stand-by recently and is still warm.
So if I still want coffee say an hour after I initially turned the machine on (and it went to stand-by after 30 mins), then I won't need to wait the full warm-up time from cold again. However, if I forget about it for hours - the machine will be cold when I come back, but in this case I prefer it to turn off automatically.

My smart socket can also be programmed to turn itself off after a set amount of time from turning on, so in the future if I find that 30 minutes is too short, I might use the socket to turn the machine off automatically instead (say after an hour). The point for me is that I don't want to forget the machine on.


----------



## Yas90

Hey guys and gals

Need some advice

I'll be working away for 3 months in a week.

And wont have access to my beloved mara. Itll be home alone.

I was wondering whether I should do anything in prep for it not being used for 3 months etc

Thanks


----------



## DavecUK

Yas90 said:


> Hey guys and gals
> 
> Need some advice
> 
> I'll be working away for 3 months in a week.
> 
> And wont have access to my beloved mara. Itll be home alone.
> 
> I was wondering whether I should do anything in prep for it not being used for 3 months etc
> 
> Thanks


 Drain it down


----------



## stockportman

Yas90 said:


> was wondering whether I should do anything in prep for it not being used for 3 months etc


 Give it a big hug before you go, and send it at least a couple of postcards whilst you're away 

I'm interested in the serious answer of this. For example - would anyone see advantage in taking the group-head rubber out as well as draining the tank?


----------



## Jason11

I've had to leave mine for 10 days. A bit less than 3 months I know but I drained the service boiler and will probably fill and flush the same as I did when I first received it as per manual.


----------



## DavecUK

stockportman said:


> Give it a big hug before you go, and send it at least a couple of postcards whilst you're away
> 
> I'm interested in the serious answer of this. For example - would anyone see advantage in taking the group-head rubber out as well as draining the tank?


 What sort of like removing the rotor arm from your car when parking it up for a long time in case someone tries to nick it? (thats a back in the day thing for the youngsters)

Yeah why not....you could actually take it on holiday with you....If you were going to Amsterdam you might get some strange looks of course, or even some job offers!


----------



## Yas90

So I'll just drain the tank

Kiss it good bye

Nothing else I'm guessing


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

drain the boiler (and the tank)


----------



## stockportman

DavecUK said:


> What sort of like removing the rotor arm from your car when parking it up for a long time in case someone tries to nick it? (thats a back in the day thing for the youngsters)
> 
> Yeah why not....you could actually take it on holiday with you....If you were going to Amsterdam you might get some strange looks of course, or even some job offers!


 TBH, when I next work away for 3 months, I'll be sorely tempted to take it with me. Aeropress went last time . I blagged a free Nespresso machine (yes I did just use that word) to take this time - that'll have to do. Not letting my colleauges near Miss Mara

[I've got a battery cut-off switch for the car, not quote as effective as a rotor arm removal, but a bit quicker to start the old girl when you get back in]


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## MediumRoastSteam

stockportman said:


> TBH, when I next work away for 3 months, I'll be sorely tempted to take it with me. Aeropress went last time . I blagged a free Nespresso machine (yes I did just use that word) to take this time - that'll have to do. Not letting my colleauges near Miss Mara
> 
> [I've got a battery cut-off switch for the car, not quote as effective as a rotor arm removal, but a bit quicker to start the old girl when you get back in]


 Why complicate things when you can have...


----------



## stockportman

{slightly in love now}

Can't see the NZ there? Is that in the other case? :classic_biggrin:

More than slightly OT now, but I saw this the other day
https://www.wholelattelove.com/collections/prosumer-espresso-machines/products/rocket-espresso-porta-via-portable-espresso-machine


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## MediumRoastSteam

I think BB was selling it at some point. Meh. 😉


----------



## shaunlawler

Does anyone have any tips specifically for the Mara X for steaming milk?

I'm aware of the general principles required and it may be just practice needed as it's new to me but I am struggling to get a good microfoam and the milk is too thin and watery.

I'm really enjoying the machine so far having had it for a week but just need to crack the milk foaming side!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

shaunlawler said:


> Does anyone have any tips specifically for the Mara X for steaming milk?
> 
> I'm aware of the general principles required and it may be just practice needed as it's new to me but I am struggling to get a good microfoam and the milk is too thin and watery.
> 
> I'm really enjoying the machine so far having had it for a week but just need to crack the milk foaming side!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 With the two hole steam tip, the best advice I was given is to position the tip very close to the back of the jug, and make sure the holes point 12 and 6 o clock. 6 o'clock being the one pointing towards the back of the job.

Just immerse it slightly and you'll have a feel for it.


----------



## stockportman

shaunlawler said:


> Does anyone have any tips specifically for the Mara X for steaming milk?


 Best advice I had was to practice with water with a drop of washing up liquid in it. It really worked for me

Also - what sort of jug are you using? Changing my jug made a massive difference


----------



## shaunlawler

MediumRoastSteam said:


> With the two hole steam tip, the best advice I was given is to position the tip very close to the back of the jug, and make sure the holes point 12 and 6 o clock. 6 o'clock being the one pointing towards the back of the job.
> Just immerse it slightly and you'll have a feel for it.


Is that the back of the jug as in the side closest to me or closest to the machine?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## shaunlawler

stockportman said:


> Best advice I had was to practice with water with a drop of washing up liquid in it. It really worked for me
> Also - what sort of jug are you using? Changing my jug made a massive difference


I'll give this a try - thanks!

I'm using a 50cl Motta jug that seemed to have very good reviews.

It's simply user error that requires a lot of practice by the sound of it...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MediumRoastSteam

shaunlawler said:


> Is that the back of the jug as in the side closest to me or closest to the machine?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Back of the jug is side opposite to spout.

you want it like this:


----------



## shaunlawler

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Back of the jug is side opposite to spout.
> 
> you want it like this:
> 
> <img alt="image.thumb.jpg.4ccaa88299003dd674a916182f891a67.jpg" data-fileid="43741" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2020_08/image.thumb.jpg.4ccaa88299003dd674a916182f891a67.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


Understood thankyou

Is the apporach to keep the wand vertical, resting in the spout of the jug and position it 1/3rd away from the edge with half of the tip in the milk initially for stretching.

Then when the air is incorporated, to lift the jug up slightly to immerse the full tip until you cannot hold it for longer than around 2 seconds.

Then it should be done?

The above apporach is what I have been trying to achieve.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MediumRoastSteam

Somewhat. I just surf the milk with the tip, making the tssssk tsssk kind of noise. Tilt slight if you need to, but you want to see the milk rolling. Keep that way until it's too hot to hold. See how it goes. When you get the mist, then you can start thinking about injecting air first and the rolling/stretching.

I know it's easily written than done, but I'm no pro either! (See the Free spout Friday thread). My stuff is utter rubbish If compared to some of the stuff the other members product with the MaraX or other machines.

you'll get there, it can be a frustrating experience. Just take a step back, chill out and it will just click at some point.


----------



## Andrewczy

What scales are everyone using on this? I've got mine that hangs abit over the drip tray and that might be causing abit more vibrations and louder noise when brewing.


----------



## Stanic

shaunlawler said:


> It's simply user error that requires a lot of practice by the sound of it...


 practice is key

here is a video I made some time ago, might help with the technique


----------



## Jason11

Andrewczy said:


> What scales are everyone using on this? I've got mine that hangs abit over the drip tray and that might be causing abit more vibrations and louder noise when brewing.


Acaia Pearls. They do hang over the front a bit but no vibration and the heights not an issue with stock portafilter and an Acme 260ml Latte cup.


----------



## stockportman

shaunlawler said:


> I'll give this a try - thanks!
> 
> I'm using a 50cl Motta jug that seemed to have very good reviews.
> 
> It's simply user error that requires a lot of practice by the sound of it...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Should be just fine then - when I first got Mara, I was using an old jug I'd bought from Whittards a few millenia ago. It was just a straight stainless steel cyclinder with an open fluted neck. Changing to a more usual shape (Rhino) transformed things for me. Also using a small, 300-odd ml jug for a single cup seemed to help

Two vids I found really informatve for frothing/foaming are:


----------



## shaunlawler

This is the closest I have got to anything that resembles 'latte art'...


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Getting there!


----------



## shaunlawler

What size basket is everyone using in their Mara X?

I was using the mid sized one (14g - 18g double basket) but finding that it gets a bit too full for my average use of 18g.

Going to move on to the largest one that came with the machine (18g - 21g larger double basket) so it leaves a bit more head space and doesn't touch the shower screen.

Anything I need to be aware of when using the largest basket?

Experimenting with flat whites at the moment with an 18g dose and yielding 30g of espresso in around 25 - 30 seconds.


----------



## Bicky

shaunlawler said:


> What size basket is everyone using in their Mara X?
> 
> I was using the mid sized one (14g - 18g double basket) but finding that it gets a bit too full for my average use of 18g.
> 
> Going to move on to the largest one that came with the machine (18g - 21g larger double basket) so it leaves a bit more head space and doesn't touch the shower screen.
> 
> Anything I need to be aware of when using the largest basket?
> 
> Experimenting with flat whites at the moment with an 18g dose and yielding 30g of espresso in around 25 - 30 seconds.


 I've found 18g in the double basket was sometimes too much for my liking (depending on the beans), but rather than use the bigger basket I dropped my dose to 17g. I don't like having too much head room in the basket, I think this can lead to more inconsistent shots. Only time I've used the triple is when dosing 19g+.


----------



## Andrewczy

I usually go 18g on my double baskets, with an extraction time of about 40 secs from pulling the lever. This seems to work well for the current mid to lighter roasts im using.

Tried the triple basket yesterday and timing was off. Do you then split the shots on these?


----------



## KyNg

Hi guys, forgive me as newbie asking..

For brewing medium roast the temp should be on usually? And are you guys using the vst basket now how far the taste will go? Since i still learn how to dial in to make a balance espresso.. Btw my bar pressure when brewing is always go to 10 bar is it good enough or ahould we turn it down to 9 bar?

Last about the water if i use only ro water plus baking soda without any magnesium. that's gonna work as well right? And the tds i should aim for is like below 70 i suppose? If i do this i shouldve not do the descaling things? Thankss


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## Doram

KyNg said:


> For brewing medium roast the temp should be on usually?


 I think the general rule is that the darker the roast the more soluble the coffee, so you don't need high temperature to dissolve it. Lighter roasts are harder to dissolve, so higher temperatures might help; Darker roasts might benefit from lower temperature to avoid over extraction.
Unless you have a very dark or very light roast, I would start in the medium temp to see what it tastes like. Then try moving the temperature up or down. The temperature that tastes best to you is the correct temperature to use. 🙂

As for the 10 bar pressure, I wouldn't touch that on a new machine if you are a newbie. Lelit probably knows how to set the pressure better than you. Also, I have seen this on the Home Barista forums (message #391 on page 40 here: https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/lelit-marax-t61215-390.html). Especially note that:

Observations:
* Mara X Pump Pressure gauge reads 1 bar higher than near-the-puck Eric's E61 Pressure Gauge Adapter
* Near the puck pressure is about 9.1 to 9.3 bar measured with Erics E61 Pressure Gauge Adapter


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

I don't have a MaraX, but an Elizabeth. The gauge reads dead on 10 bar on backflushing. The pump and expansion valves are the same though. Personally, I'd leave at 10 and move on. that's what I did.

There a video from Bezzera explaining why they set the pump at 10 bar on the manometer. Not in depth, but saying that's what it works for vibe pumps.


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## KyNg

Notedd.. thanks doram and mediumroaststeam..will let it be that way then..


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## shaunlawler

Does anyone have any advice on what the steam pressure should be after pulling a shot?

I usually pull a shot, purge the steam wand and wait for the steam pressure to ramp back up to 1.5 bars before steaming, however, it doesn't always ramp back up and sometimes only sits just above 1 bar even if I wait a few minutes.

Not sure if it is just inconsistent sometimes or whether I am doing something wrong process wise.

For clarity, I am in brew priority mode on the '1' setting (mid temperature).

Appreciate any advice.


----------



## Jason11

shaunlawler said:


> Does anyone have any advice on what the steam pressure should be after pulling a shot?
> 
> I usually pull a shot, purge the steam wand and wait for the steam pressure to ramp back up to 1.5 bars before steaming, however, it doesn't always ramp back up and sometimes only sits just above 1 bar even if I wait a few minutes.
> 
> Not sure if it is just inconsistent sometimes or whether I am doing something wrong process wise.
> 
> For clarity, I am in brew priority mode on the '1' setting (mid temperature).
> 
> Appreciate any advice.


 I think the nature of the brew priority mode will mean less consistency with the steam pressure. I remove the portafilter then raise the lever for a second. This kicks the boiler in and by the time I've filled the basket, distributed and tamped the steam pressure is usually getting towards 1.5bar while the shot is being pulled which gives me plenty of steam after the shot for my milk.

I did try kicking the boiler in with purging the steam wand but I found raising the lever would kick the boiler in for longer and give me a higher steaming pressure.


----------



## jaffro

shaunlawler said:


> Does anyone have any advice on what the steam pressure should be after pulling a shot?
> 
> I usually pull a shot, purge the steam wand and wait for the steam pressure to ramp back up to 1.5 bars before steaming, however, it doesn't always ramp back up and sometimes only sits just above 1 bar even if I wait a few minutes.
> 
> Not sure if it is just inconsistent sometimes or whether I am doing something wrong process wise.
> 
> For clarity, I am in brew priority mode on the '1' setting (mid temperature).
> 
> Appreciate any advice.


 I've been purging the steam wand while I brew espresso, then after I knock the Puck out, flush a bit of water through, etc. the steam pressure is pretty consistent and does a good job.

Don't know if other people have found the same, but it works for me!


----------



## Bicky

I'm the same as @Jason11 and this approach fits nicely into my workflow.


----------



## 1823Dave

shaunlawler said:


> What size basket is everyone using in their Mara X?
> 
> I was using the mid sized one (14g - 18g double basket) but finding that it gets a bit too full for my average use of 18g.
> 
> Going to move on to the largest one that came with the machine (18g - 21g larger double basket) so it leaves a bit more head space and doesn't touch the shower screen.
> 
> Anything I need to be aware of when using the largest basket?
> 
> Experimenting with flat whites at the moment with an 18g dose and yielding 30g of espresso in around 25 - 30 seconds.


 I am currently using the 20g VST Ridgeless basket and the amount I use really depends on the beans. Currently have a lighter roast that I am dosing 19g in at a 1:2 ratio. Previous batch of beans I was grinding a little finer with 18g in, for roughly 1:2.5. I definitely prefer this basket over the stock one I got with the MaraX, but im still quite new to this.

https://www.hasbean.co.uk/collections/vst/products/vst-filter-basket

If I had a bit more spare cash I would probably invest in the 18g and 15g basket.


----------



## Doram

For anyone who wants to get a group gasket for Mara X (Lelit, Cafelat silicon or any other) and wondering what size to get, the height is 8.5 mm.

The reason I am writing this is that I read that new E61 machines use an 8mm gasket, and that once the group and PF wear, that might need to be changed to 8.5 mm. However, when I measured the original gasket that came with the machine it was 8.5 mm thick (see below).

So I emailed Lelit just to be sure, and they confirmed that the measurements of the gasket they use (Lelit part MC930/2) are: Outer diameter: 73mm, Inner diameter: 57mm, Thickness: 8mm, Height: 8.5mm (see diagram below). So for anyone who wants to get a Cafelat silicon gasket, the one with correct size is the blue, for example: https://espresso-solutions.co.uk/cafelat-e61-8-5mm-silicon-gasket/ (the red Cafelat gasket's height is 8mm, so it's 0.5mm shorter than the stock Lelit gasket).


----------



## PD2020

What impact does the height of the gasket have?

I have the red Cafelat gasket (8mm) and I noticed one thing. It allows me to lock in the portafilter at 90* angle (perpendicular to my belly) making it look nice.

The original gasket didn't let me do that. Portafilter felt locked at 60-75* or so.

Apart from esthetics, though, I imagine it would have an impact on the amount of water pumped in between the coffee puck and the shower screen, right?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

PD2020 said:


> What impact does the height of the gasket have?
> 
> I have the red Cafelat gasket (8mm) and I noticed one thing. It allows me to lock in the portafilter at 90* angle (perpendicular to my belly) making it look nice.
> 
> The original gasket didn't let me do that. Portafilter felt locked at 60-75* or so.
> 
> Apart from esthetics, though, I imagine it would have an impact on the amount of water pumped in between the coffee puck and the shower screen, right?


 It will make the portafilter lock in the right place, that's all.

it should lock preferably at 6 o'clock (I.e.: perpendicular to your belly).

the correct size for an E61 group is 8mm. Some portafilters will have thinner lugs, but that's not the case with Lelit ones.

@Doram - does the PF locks at 6 o'clock for you?


----------



## Doram

@MediumRoastSteam - Yes, it does.


----------



## Doram

PD2020 said:


> What impact does the height of the gasket have?
> 
> I have the red Cafelat gasket (8mm) and I noticed one thing. It allows me to lock in the portafilter at 90* angle (perpendicular to my belly) making it look nice.


 I think if the gasket is thinner, it will lock past 90 degrees, and if thicker it will lock before 90 degrees. If yours locks at the 6 o'clock position with the red 8mm gasket then that is perfect. It is a little confusing though, because mine locks at 6 o'clock with the blue 8.5mm gasket (and it did the same with the stock gasket, which is also 8.5mm). I can't imagine Lelit already made two versions on the machine, but who knows? If you have calipers, you can check the height of your original gasket and see what it is. We could be on to something, lol.


----------



## robti

My stock one would lock at around 7 if 6 is straight towards you, changed to red and it locks at 6 now


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> I think if the gasket is thinner, it will lock past 90 degrees, and if thicker it will lock before 90 degrees. If yours locks at the 6 o'clock position with the red 8mm gasket then that is perfect. It is a little confusing though, because mine locks at 6 o'clock with the blue 8.5mm gasket (and it did the same with the stock gasket, which is also 8.5mm). I can't imagine Lelit already made two versions on the machine, but who knows? If you have calipers, you can check the height of your original gasket and see what it is. We could be on to something, lol.


 Stock portafilter or something else?


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Stock portafilter or something else?


 Yes, stock PF with stock gasket (or Cafelat blue gasket, both of which are 8.5mm) lock at 6 for me. It seems odd that others are getting the same lock position with 8mm gaskets. Can't imagine how that would happen (video shows IMS shower screen, but locking position is the same with stock screen).

View attachment VID_20200818_221300.mp4


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

How weird! Have you tried another PF? Have you a bottomless?


----------



## robti

robti said:


> My stock one would lock at around 7 if 6 is straight towards you, changed to red and it locks at 6 now


 Sorry forgot to say have a VST basket in mine


----------



## Jason11

Mine locks at the 6 o'clock position with any of stock portafilter/rocket naked and VST/stock basket configurations.

I'll check the depth of my gasket when I drop it out later for cleaning.


----------



## Jony

Doesn't matter so long has there is a seal and pressured it's fine.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Jony said:


> Doesn't matter so long has there is a seal and pressured it's fine.


 I don't think @Doram is questioning whether it works. He's asking why his machine has an 8.5mm gasket whereas others with the same machine (And others E61 in general) have an 8mm gasket and it locks at the same position. Let's see what @Jason11 reports back later on.


----------



## TacticalCake

My two cents.

I bought a generic E61 bottomless portafilter and the lips are 0.5mm thicker than the one on the pf that came with the MaraX. I could not properly lock the PF to the 6oclock like the original one.

As suspected, it turns out the MaraX comes with a 8.5mm thick gasket. I changed it to a 8.0mm Red Cafelat Gasket and the generic bottomless just fits very well at 6 oclock while the stock marax pf now locks slightly past 6 oclock.

IMO it doesn't really matter and comes down to which direction you want your PF to lock at. If you prefer to standardize your MaraX to typical E61 standards (so it better conforms to most generic parts) then I suppose go with the 8.0mm Red.


----------



## Stanic

I use the 8mm one with a non OEM bottomless PF


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I don't think @Doram is questioning whether it works. He's asking why his machine has an 8.5mm gasket whereas others with the same machine (And others E61 in general) have an 8mm gasket and it locks at the same position. Let's see what @Jason11 reports back later on.


 Yes, this is what I meant. I may have an idea: It seems that the PF goes further when the machine is cold, and locks earlier when the metal is hot and everything expands. I took the video with a cold machine, so maybe that explains why others see the same locking position with the 8mm gasket? (Locking position of course also depends on how hard you push the handle after it engages, so that can also vary).



MediumRoastSteam said:


> Have you tried another PF? Have you a bottomless?


 Yes, and my bottomless goes further than the stock PF, to about 5 o'clock. 🙂 Tried IMS and stock baskets - makes no difference.



Jony said:


> Doesn't matter so long has there is a seal and pressured it's fine.


 Yes. I am just wondering why Lelit chose to use 8.5mm if the norm is 8mm? It's good to know that both seem to work fine.


----------



## KyNg

I'm still waiting for my bottomless porta as well order from lelit hopefully it's good.. still use

Btw may i know what water are you guys putting to the machine? I'm still wondering should i put magnesium (epsom salt) or not to the machine to adjust the flavor.. just now i put some epsom salt on the puck and the flavor turns quite nice actually.. what do you guys think about this.. Thanks in advance.. cheers..


----------



## Jason11

For the 6 o'clock position on line that's with the handle locked in place securely to pull a shot. If I'm place but not securely locked in ie. when machine is just sitting switched on keeping itself warm then it's between 7-8 o'clock.

I'm happy in any position to be fair as long as I can get a reasonable shot! 

I'll measure the depth of my gasket when I get home form work just so we can see if all the MaraX's have the same depth or there are variations.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

KyNg said:


> I'm still waiting for my bottomless porta as well order from lelit hopefully it's good.. still use
> 
> Btw may i know what water are you guys putting to the machine? I'm still wondering should i put magnesium (epsom salt) or not to the machine to adjust the flavor.. just now i put some epsom salt on the puck and the flavor turns quite nice actually.. what do you guys think about this.. Thanks in advance.. cheers..


 Just make sure you use water that's good and won't scale nor corrode the boiler! (Not sure if that's a problem in Indonesia or not).


----------



## KyNg

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Just make sure you use water that's good and won't scale nor corrode the boiler! (Not sure if that's a problem in Indonesia or not).


 Ya water here quite hard that's why i use ro water and buffer it using baking soda to make it not corrode the boiler.. thanks anyways.. still trying to make the best shot ever lol.. want to buy vst but my friend said the flavor is not much difference.. so hold it on first and the scale still using the cheap one wad wondering one day there's a company build up a scale thats not so expensive.. you guys all are using lunar?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

KyNg said:


> Ya water here quite hard that's why i use ro water and buffer it using baking soda to make it not corrode the boiler.. thanks anyways.. still trying to make the best shot ever lol.. want to buy vst but my friend said the flavor is not much difference.. so hold it on first and the scale still using the cheap one wad wondering one day there's a company build up a scale thats not so expensive.. you guys all are using lunar?


 I use distilled water (with a home distiller) and add 100mg of sodium bicarbonate per litre as buffer.

as scales... mine is from eBay... I think I paid £4.99 back in the day. I do like the Acaia Lunar.... looks and feels the business....


----------



## Jason11

I've just measured the depth of my stock gasket at 8.65mm.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Jason11 said:


> I've just measured the depth of my stock gasket at 8.65mm.


 OMG! An even thicker one! 😂😂😂😂😂 - I think we can safely say the stock is 8.5mm then. (Cafelat blue gasket equivalent).


----------



## Jason11

MediumRoastSteam said:


> OMG! An even thicker one!  - I think we can safely say the stock is 8.5mm then. (Cafelat blue gasket equivalent).


I cleaned it first honest


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I think we can safely say the stock is 8.5mm then.


 I did say I confirmed this with Lelit, didn't I? 😉


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> I did say I confirmed this with Lelit, didn't I? 😉


 You did indeed!


----------



## Ajstephe

Well, after a short time on these forums but a long time spent looking for an upgrade from my Delonghi Dedica machine I've gone and got myself a Mara X and what a machine it is. As a first 'proper' machine it has really taught me a lot and my coffee making skills have gone from zero to reasonable in the space of a week since I've had it.

18g in, 36 out in about 35 seconds from handle being lifted. Using Ashbeck mineral water. I'm am seeing a lot of water in the drip tray as has been noted by a few people on here but its something I'm happy to live with.

I'm quite lucky that I live about 30-40 mins drive from Bella Barista and they sorted out a demo machine for me to go and see. Their service is first class and they really seemed to care about customer service. I walked away with a machine then and there. Now i just need to work on my latte art.

These forums really are a goldmine!


----------



## robti

Ajstephe said:


> Well, after a short time on these forums but a long time spent looking for an upgrade from my Delonghi Dedica machine I've gone and got myself a Mara X and what a machine it is. As a first 'proper' machine it has really taught me a lot and my coffee making skills have gone from zero to reasonable in the space of a week since I've had it.
> 
> 18g in, 36 out in about 35 seconds from handle being lifted. Using Ashbeck mineral water. I'm am seeing a lot of water in the drip tray as has been noted by a few people on here but its something I'm happy to live with.
> 
> I'm quite lucky that I live about 30-40 mins drive from Bella Barista and they sorted out a demo machine for me to go and see. Their service is first class and they really seemed to care about customer service. I walked away with a machine then and there. Now i just need to work on my latte art.
> 
> These forums really are a goldmine!
> 
> View attachment 44259


 I actually don't bother with the art as I only use skimmed milk, so I just enjoy the taste


----------



## Ajstephe

robti said:


> I actually don't bother with the art as I only use skimmed milk, so I just enjoy the taste


 I usually don't bother with the latte art because I was so rubbish!


----------



## Dennis

Hi folks, received my Mara x from espresso underground on Monday. I ve looked through the mails however not seen any ref the manometer glass getting condensation on the glass. Have spoken to peter at expresso underground and he is ordering me a new manometer. Looks straight forward to replace. Anybody experienced this?


----------



## skylark

Considering one of these and was wondering what clearance is needed to extract the water container?

Reason is it'll be under a cabinet and a bit of a pain to roll in/roll out when i need to refill.

I could just use a spouted jug and never do this but thought i may as well ask .... cheers!


----------



## shaunlawler

I've had my Mara X now for just under a month now. It's my first 'proper' espresso machine after drinking filter coffee exclusively for the last 5 years or so with an Nespresso machine when I fancied something close to espresso.

This machine is simply fantastic. For such a small size, it certainly packs a punch and is a very clever bit of kit but retains that classic look.

I'm enjoying the process of dialling in different kinds of beans and noting the changes to variables and how it affects mouthfeel/flavour etc.

I appreciate its not a profiling machine but, to be honest, I think that would be wasted on me and I like that this machine is very much 'plug and play' as long as the grind/tamp etc are right.

Milk frothing is still not quite there but this is down to my abilities as I know this machine is more than capable and 1.5 bars of steam pressure is more than enough to make a good, strong microfoam.

Now I am just eagerly awaiting my Niche Zero that is due for delivery in September as I will then be able to experiment much more. Currently I am hand grinding, which is fine, but I do feel like I'm going to contract a repetivitve strain injury if I keep making so many espressos every day.

I'm also waiting to order an Osmio Zero as I'm currently using a Brita water filter. I missed out on the last group buy so started a new thread today. Hopefully it won't be too long until this is completed and ordered so I can use with the Mara X.

Thanks to everyone who helped me decide on this machine and it was a pleasure to buy it from someone on the forum.


----------



## Burnzy

shaunlawler said:


> I've had my Mara X now for just under a month now. It's my first 'proper' espresso machine after drinking filter coffee exclusively for the last 5 years or so with an Nespresso machine when I fancied something close to espresso.
> 
> This machine is simply fantastic. For such a small size, it certainly packs a punch and is a very clever bit of kit but retains that classic look.
> 
> I'm enjoying the process of dialling in different kinds of beans and noting the changes to variables and how it affects mouthfeel/flavour etc.
> 
> I appreciate its not a profiling machine but, to be honest, I think that would be wasted on me and I like that this machine is very much 'plug and play' as long as the grind/tamp etc are right.
> 
> Milk frothing is still not quite there but this is down to my abilities as I know this machine is more than capable and 1.5 bars of steam pressure is more than enough to make a good, strong microfoam.
> 
> Now I am just eagerly awaiting my Niche Zero that is due for delivery in September as I will then be able to experiment much more. Currently I am hand grinding, which is fine, but I do feel like I'm going to contract a repetivitve strain injury if I keep making so many espressos every day.
> 
> I'm also waiting to order an Osmio Zero as I'm currently using a Brita water filter. I missed out on the last group buy so started a new thread today. Hopefully it won't be too long until this is completed and ordered so I can use with the Mara X.
> 
> Thanks to everyone who helped me decide on this machine and it was a pleasure to buy it from someone on the forum.


 Congrats! How nice does the wood upgrade kit look? Im really pleased i spent the money on it!

are they distribution tools on the left? If so what make are they, im using the black motto one, but i want a wooden one i think ????


----------



## shaunlawler

Burnzy said:


> Congrats! How nice does the wood upgrade kit look? Im really pleased i spent the money on it!
> 
> are they distribution tools on the left? If so what make are they, im using the black motto one, but i want a wooden one i think


I like the wood upgrades. I think it's a really nice look with the stainless steel.

They are a distribution tool (dozer) and tamper (buzzer) from Malhgut. They are both extremely heavy and very good quality. They help me to get a completely level tamp and take that variable out of each coffee, as it's always the same and can be set to different dose sizes easily.

I managed to also find them pre-owned and got a good deal (I think the seller is a member on here but I bought them on another forum).


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

shaunlawler said:


> I like the wood upgrades. I think it's a really nice look with the stainless steel.
> 
> They are a distribution tool (dozer) and tamper (buzzer) from Malhgut. They are both extremely heavy and very good quality. They help me to get a completely level tamp and take that variable out of each coffee, as it's always the same and can be set to different dose sizes easily.
> 
> I managed to also find them pre-owned and got a good deal (I think the seller is a member on here but I bought them on another forum).


 Another forum? Does such a thing exist? 😛 Do tell! 🙂

I really like that Lelit naked PF with the wooden handle. In hindsight, I wish I had bitten the bullet and just gone for it.


----------



## shaunlawler

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Another forum? Does such a thing exist? 😛 Do tell! 🙂
> 
> I really like that Lelit naked PF with the wooden handle. In hindsight, I wish I had bitten the bullet and just gone for it.


 A watch forum - another one of my endless hobbies...


----------



## TacticalCake

Just did my first chemical backflush after a month with Cafiza 2.

There's no such thing as delaying the cam lubrication. I almost immediately heard squeaks whilst backflushing the unit.

Thankfully I bought a large tube of Molycote 111 before my MaraX even arrived. 😁

Pretty sure all E61s will need to be lubed every time it's backflushed with chemicals.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

TacticalCake said:


> Just did my first chemical backflush after a month with Cafiza 2.
> 
> There's no such thing as delaying the cam lubrication. I almost immediately heard squeaks whilst backflushing the unit.
> 
> Thankfully I bought a large tube of Molycote 111 before my MaraX even arrived. 😁
> 
> Pretty sure all E61s will need to be lubed every time it's backflushed with chemicals.


 You are correct... Unless it's a solenoid activated E61group (e.g: ACS Minima) in which case you don't need to do that.


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You are correct... Unless it's a solenoid activated E61group (e.g: ACS Minima) in which case you don't need to do that.


 That blue Minima I'm playing with at the moment...reminds me of how much I like solenoid operated E61s...must go and backflush it with cleaner.

Don't like the pump noise so much after the Lelit machines....although I've an interesting control panel and other bits and bobs linked up to it....so I can make it sound strange or quiet


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> although I've an interesting control panel and other bits and bobs linked up to it....so I can make it sound strange or quiet


 A blue, bigger, solenoid E61 operated Decent machine? 😂


----------



## dbeckett

I've finally made the upgrade to the Mara X too, I've been trying to keep my use of this forum to a minimum over the last few years to avoid the temptation to upgrade but after that needed a replacement thermocouple sensor for my Gaggia PID, I ended up back again on these forums and couldn't resist the Mara X after reading the reviews and this thread.

A really nice upgrade from my Gaggia, only strangeness I've had so far is that sometimes the pump doesn't stop after I pull down the lever fully. Instead I need to turn the lever on and then off again for the pump to stop. Is this normal?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

dbeckett said:


> I've finally made the upgrade to the Mara X too, I've been trying to keep my use of this forum to a minimum over the last few years to avoid the temptation to upgrade but after that needed a replacement thermocouple sensor for my Gaggia PID, I ended up back again on these forums and couldn't resist the Mara X after reading the reviews and this thread.
> 
> A really nice upgrade from my Gaggia, only strangeness I've had so far is that sometimes the pump doesn't stop after I pull down the lever fully. Instead I need to turn the lever on and then off again for the pump to stop. Is this normal?


 There's a little push button which activates the pump when the lever moves above the middle position. Is that getting caught somehow?


----------



## Jason11

dbeckett said:


> I've finally made the upgrade to the Mara X too, I've been trying to keep my use of this forum to a minimum over the last few years to avoid the temptation to upgrade but after that needed a replacement thermocouple sensor for my Gaggia PID, I ended up back again on these forums and couldn't resist the Mara X after reading the reviews and this thread.
> A really nice upgrade from my Gaggia, only strangeness I've had so far is that sometimes the pump doesn't stop after I pull down the lever fully. Instead I need to turn the lever on and then off again for the pump to stop. Is this normal?


Definitely doesn't sound normal.


----------



## dbeckett

I've uploaded a video at the link below showing what I mean, perhaps I'll contact Bella Barista and see if they have any advice

https://photos.app.goo.gl/tiscESVQb7dsS55h9


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

dbeckett said:


> I've uploaded a video at the link below showing what I mean, perhaps I'll contact Bella Barista and see if they have any advice
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/tiscESVQb7dsS55h9


 Check that push bottom behind the lever. Make sure it's not sticking.


----------



## Doram

dbeckett said:


> I've uploaded a video at the link below showing what I mean, perhaps I'll contact Bella Barista and see if they have any advice


 Looks like something is wrong with the machine. Also the pressure gauge is jumping up (no gradual and gentle ramp up as it should do). Are you getting the same with a PF with coffee or a blind basket in the group? There are experts on this forum, and I am not one of them, but it doesn't look right to me.


----------



## dbeckett

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Check that push bottom behind the lever. Make sure it's not sticking.


 Ah I didn't realise the push button was external. You're correct, it is indeed stuck when this issue occurs (photo below)



Doram said:


> Looks like something is wrong with the machine. Also the pressure gauge is jumping up (no gradual and gentle ramp up as it should do). Are you getting the same with a PF with coffee or a blind basket in the group? There are experts on this forum, and I am not one of them, but it doesn't look right to me.


 It appears that the pressure gauge is jumping up as the pump is still running (due to a stuck button) but the group head outlet itself is closed?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

When you put the lever down, the exhaust valve will open and the brew chamber will close. Therefore, the water pressure WILL rise. Pretty much the same as if you had a blind-basket (backflushing).

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/the-mystery-of-the-e61-group-mushroom






Your button is stuck like I suspected:


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

I'm not sure what to do re: your button. Other people here might be able to help. @El carajillo @DavecUK


----------



## El carajillo

*I agree with @MediumRoastSteam , it is the button sticking, from the photo it looks as if there is a roller mounted in the end of the button .*

*It may be the switch / rod section has rotated slightly and the roller (?) is catching in the grooved channel.*

*Operate the lever and watch carefully / closely to see if the roller is rubbing / catching in the groove. If it is you could try easing it with needle nose pliers.*

*OR possibly it needs a slight adjustment to the threaded barrel of the switch, using the nut you can see and the other one on the inside OR it may be adjusted by the addition of washer's on the inside of the switch barrel to prevent the lever over pushing the switch.*


----------



## 1823Dave

TacticalCake said:


> Just did my first chemical backflush after a month with Cafiza 2.
> 
> There's no such thing as delaying the cam lubrication. I almost immediately heard squeaks whilst backflushing the unit.
> 
> Thankfully I bought a large tube of Molycote 111 before my MaraX even arrived. 😁
> 
> Pretty sure all E61s will need to be lubed every time it's backflushed with chemicals.


 I only realised this one week or so after chemical back flushing! Thankfully got a hold of some Molykote quite quickly. I assume this only needs to be done with a chemical back flush, and regular backflushes will be fine?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

1823Dave said:


> I only realised this one week or so after chemical back flushing! Thankfully got a hold of some Molykote quite quickly. I assume this only needs to be done with a chemical back flush, and regular backflushes will be fine?


 Correct. Water backflush is fine. Chemical backflush requires the cam to be lubricated straightaway.


----------



## dbeckett

El carajillo said:


> *I agree with @MediumRoastSteam , it is the button sticking, from the photo it looks as if there is a roller mounted in the end of the button .*
> 
> *It may be the switch / rod section has rotated slightly and the roller (?) is catching in the grooved channel.*
> 
> *Operate the lever and watch carefully / closely to see if the roller is rubbing / catching in the groove. If it is you could try easing it with needle nose pliers.*
> 
> *OR possibly it needs a slight adjustment to the threaded barrel of the switch, using the nut you can see and the other one on the inside OR it may be adjusted by the addition of washer's on the inside of the switch barrel to prevent the lever over pushing the switch.*


 I asked Bella Barista and they suggested that it may have had too much grease in the switch plunger so suggested I spray some WD40 to remove some of it and operate it a few times. This seems to have fixed it.


----------



## skylark

Anyone know if a polished chrome looking Marax is/will become available at all. The machine ticks a lot of my boxes other than the 'shiny, shiny' one which previous Maras came with. Why the switch to dull?? Do people like this finish over the 'polished' look?

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> Anyone know if a polished chrome looking Marax is/will become available at all. The machine ticks a lot of my boxes other than the 'shiny, shiny' one which previous Maras came with. Why the switch to dull?? Do people like this finish over the 'polished' look?
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 Mirror finished machines scratch really easily.


----------



## Doram

shaunlawler said:


> Milk frothing is still not quite there but this is down to my abilities as I know this machine is more than capable and 1.5 bars of steam pressure is more than enough to make a good, strong microfoam.


 I watched tons of videos on frothing milk and latte art, and found these two to be super useful. Leah from La Marzocco Home is so articulate and clear IMO. It's not short, but for me it was well worth it. There is one about steaming milk:






Helped me get to this (I need a lot more practice, but still): 🙂


----------



## skylark

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Mirror finished machines scratch really easily.


And brushed ones too ...

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## KyNg

Yeah i have changet to cafelat blue 8.5 thanks to this group as well.. and use vst 18gr so far really turn my espresso better my ims shower should be arrived today. Hopefully makes the espresso more better still hard to find the sweetness.. thanks to dave as well to recommend 32sec after pull the lever.. i always count after the first drop lol..

Btw since in my place theres a quite good deal on Tiamo Espresso/ghost Scale have anybody here hear that one?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

KyNg said:


> Yeah i have changet to cafelat blue 8.5 thanks to this group as well.. and use vst 18gr so far really turn my espresso better my ims shower should be arrived today. Hopefully makes the espresso more better still hard to find the sweetness.. thanks to dave as well to recommend 32sec after pull the lever.. i always count after the first drop lol..
> 
> Btw since in my place theres a quite good deal on Tiamo Espresso/ghost Scale have anybody here hear that one?


 The only thing which made your espresso better is the VST basket. 
the gasket and your future shower screen will help with maintenance (IMO, they are great additions, a "must", I'd say) but won't add anything to the cup. Oh... and makes the machine look nicer, of course. 😊


----------



## KyNg

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The only thing which made your espresso better is the VST basket.
> the gasket and your future shower screen will help with maintenance (IMO, they are great additions, a "must", I'd say) but won't add anything to the cup. Oh... and makes the machine look nicer, of course. 😊


 Ah i see no wonder.. hha i dont know if that will makes the machine look nicer.. hha

I saw one of german youtuber using weightman scale which quite nice i think.. bit none sell it on my country.. will have bought it using amazon.. 😢


----------



## Zeak

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Correct. Water backflush is fine. Chemical backflush requires the cam to be lubricated straightaway.


 Sorry, is that applicable to all E61 machines or Mara specifically? Never heard about that.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Zeak said:


> Sorry, is that applicable to all E61 machines or Mara specifically? Never heard about that.


 E61. Try it. The lever will start squeaking straight away.


----------



## Zeak

Oh damn. Good to know, thanks


----------



## skylark

Does this mean that every pulycaff cleaning cycle, around 100 shots pulled say, that the lever has to be dismantled and regreased? How difficult a job is that? I'm thinking a switch based machine like the minima might be a less laborious way to go for my forthcoming purchase. Or maybe a bezzera although I've never really seen any reviews on that one?


----------



## Stanic

skylark said:


> Does this mean that every pulycaff cleaning cycle, around 100 shots pulled say, that the lever has to be dismantled and regreased? How difficult a job is that? I'm thinking a switch based machine like the minima might be a less laborious way to go for my forthcoming purchase. Or maybe a bezzera although I've never really seen any reviews on that one?


 Yes you'll need to relube it, it is easy


----------



## Jason11

skylark said:


> Does this mean that every pulycaff cleaning cycle, around 100 shots pulled say, that the lever has to be dismantled and regreased? How difficult a job is that? I'm thinking a switch based machine like the minima might be a less laborious way to go for my forthcoming purchase. Or maybe a bezzera although I've never really seen any reviews on that one?


I did mine on Monday which was the first time for me and it is an easy job


----------



## skylark

Jason11 said:


> I did mine on Monday which was the first time for me and it is an easy job


 What's involved? Any online guides?


----------



## Stanic

skylark said:


> What's involved? Any online guides?


 There's a video at the Lelit insider youtube channel on this topic


----------



## Rob Barker




----------



## Rob Barker

Stanic said:


> There's a video at the Lelit insider youtube channel on this topic


----------



## skylark

> 2 hours ago, Rob Barker said:


 Thanks all for that. Well now, it doesn't look that hard but I can't believe there's no external lubrication points on an E61 group head and that this is needed (really?) every time you pulycaff the machine. It's making the solenoid switch type of operation ala ACS minima, bezzera look a clear favourite if only to save on having to pull your machine to bits every month. What do others think?. I know it's quick once you've done it but it's a tad convoluted eh!


----------



## Jason11

skylark said:


> What's involved? Any online guides?


Plenty of online vids along with what's been linked already. 

I watched the Lelit insider one along with DaveC's.

Have the lever in the 45 degree position when removing it and reinstalling everything. Just need to be firm with putting the cam lever back in, just make sure it's in the same position you took it out from.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> Thanks all for that. Well now, it doesn't look that hard but I can't believe there's no external lubrication points on an E61 group head and that this is needed (really?) every time you pulycaff the machine. It's making the solenoid switch type of operation ala ACS minima, bezzera look a clear favourite if only to save on having to pull your machine to bits every month. What do others think?. I know it's quick once you've done it but it's a tad convoluted eh!


 One of the reasons I didn't buy an E61. That alone would not deter me however, because it has many other advantages. But yeah, it's a pain.

whet you comment above has been discussed in other threads.

ps: not all bezerras are solenoid operated. Which one are you talking about?


----------



## stickyz

I've been trying to perfect my single shots with no luck ( going usually too fast or not at all ) how much grams do you put in the small basket to get the best shot ?(I tried with 9,10) , I also have a niche so if anybody has tips for the combo I'll be thankfully .


----------



## skylark

stickyz said:


> I've been trying to perfect my single shots with no luck ( going usually too fast or not at all ) how much grams do you put in the small basket to get the best shot ?(I tried with 9,10) , I also have a niche so if anybody has tips for the combo I'll be thankfully .


 Didn't someone say not to use the single shot basket, just a big hassle due to the contours of the basket. Can you not split a double into singles ... bit wasteful but .... most probably no more than what you're wasting now trying for a decent single.


----------



## Zeak

Yeah, singles are prone to channeling more as the water pressure isn't distributing equally across the puck due to the shape of it.


----------



## skylark

My Marax arrived today minus a basket, i 'think' i'm missing the 14-18 double as the one that was in the portafilter looks a lot deeper. How deep is the 'extralarge' basket compared to the normal double so's i can measure and get back to BB, anyone know?


----------



## Jason11

You should get 4 baskets with it, 1 blind basket plus 3 different sized baskets.


----------



## skylark

Just the blind plus the single and doublebut which double is missing? I think I only have the triple double use a deep basket if you get my meaning but I'm not sure without seeing them side by side which obviously I can't do 😊


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> Just the blind plus the single and doublebut which double is missing? I think I only have the triple double use a deep basket if you get my meaning but I'm not sure without seeing them side by side which obviously I can't do 😊


 Put 18g of coffee in it. Tamp it. The top rim of the base of the tamper should be kind of flush with the top of the basket. If it goes way deep inside.... you have a deeper basket.

I never use my stock baskets. They are not well made in my opinion. I do use a VST 18g though. 😉


----------



## Doram

skylark said:


> My Marax arrived today minus a basket, i 'think' i'm missing the 14-18 double as the one that was in the portafilter looks a lot deeper. How deep is the 'extralarge' basket compared to the normal double so's i can measure and get back to BB, anyone know?


 The largest basket's height is 28mm. The medium one is 25mm. If you look at proportion between the middle and the top 'band' of the basket, you might be able to decide which one you have.


----------



## skylark

Thanks for that, it's the double I'm missing. Should I bother BB or not? What other baskets fit the marax, 58.55mm?


----------



## Jason11

skylark said:


> Thanks for that, it's the double I'm missing. Should I bother BB or not? What other baskets fit the marax, 58.55mm?


It should have come with one so I would get them to send you one.

Personally I'd buy an 18g VST basket for it and use that if it's the right size for you.


----------



## KyNg

Ah, finally i can lubricate the cams successfully with molykote no squeaking anymore..

Guys, if i want to use other pf like pesado e61 bottomless for mara x.. do i have to change the gasket to thinner one like 8mm? Or should i just wait for lelit bottomless one? I still wait until end of the month.. btw if i use vst can i use lelit bottomless? Since when i saw the pic the end is like for the stock basket. Cmiiw?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

KyNg said:


> Ah, finally i can lubricate the cams successfully with molykote no squeaking anymore..
> 
> Guys, if i want to use other pf like pesado e61 bottomless for mara x.. do i have to change the gasket to thinner one like 8mm? Or should i just wait for lelit bottomless one? I still wait until end of the month.. btw if i use vst can i use lelit bottomless? Since when i saw the pic the end is like for the stock basket. Cmiiw?


 You shouldn't need to change the gasket to use a different PF, providing it's made to the same specifications (position and thickness of the lugs).


----------



## PD2020

Hi Marax people,

Has anybody had good results with Brazilian coffee on Marax? I've been recently trying to learn how to decrease bitterness and increase sweetness in the cup ( https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/54498-bitterness-in-a-brazilian-espresso-blend ) and some people have suggested that perhaps the temperature is too high.

But given that Marax doesn't go any lower than 91-92 in Temperature Mode 0, I'm wondering if other Marax users have had success. What temperature/dose/yield/time works best for you?

Muito obrigado


----------



## PD2020

On a slightly less inquisitive side, just had a lovely morning cup of Origin's La Huella (https://www.origincoffee.co.uk/products/la-huella-pulped-natural?variant=31704228397129). Insane how finely you have to grind that oversized Yellow Pacamara (on Niche Zero it's 10 settings finer than for any of my other beans).

The beans blew my mind when I tried them as filter coffee in the shop (they use EK43 *cough*). My espresso wasn't as flavoursome but still one of my best shots until now - and still got some beans left in the bag to experiment


----------



## robti

Just watched the video at the Lelit insider youtube channel above, can i ask how often do we need to remove the bottom of the group head to clean and relube ?

Thanks


----------



## PD2020

PD2020 said:


> Hi Marax people,
> 
> Has anybody had good results with Brazilian coffee on Marax? I've been recently trying to learn how to decrease bitterness and increase sweetness in the cup ( https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/54498-bitterness-in-a-brazilian-espresso-blend ) and some people have suggested that perhaps the temperature is too high.
> 
> But given that Marax doesn't go any lower than 91-92 in Temperature Mode 0, I'm wondering if other Marax users have had success. What temperature/dose/yield/time works best for you?
> 
> Muito obrigado


 It turns out I was all wrong about the difference between sour and bitter in the world of espresso and I was grinding in the wrong direction... (more details at: https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/54498-bitterness-in-a-brazilian-espresso-blend)

It's crazy how much better coffee got over one day... 😉


----------



## rxmnt

> On 02/09/2020 at 11:29, Rob Barker said:


 Wouldn't this fat end up in my coffee on the next run?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

rxmnt said:


> Wouldn't this fat end up in my coffee on the next run?


 Not really. It'll stick to pins, and, if it ends up anywhere, it will end up on the drip tray, not in the brew chamber.

That's a lot of grease. You don't need that much.

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/the-mystery-of-the-e61-group-mushroom

If you browse that Wiki, you'll see a much better video on how to do it. 🙂


----------



## Doram

If you are getting unexpected sour shots -

I found out I made a stupid mistake and feel I need to share it in case I am not the only one: check your temp setting!
I assumed that the middle position ('0') is the medium temperature, but I was wrong. The actual medium is position '1' (switch pushed on the left side). Moving from 0 to 1 instantly fixed my sour shots. A big thank you goes to @PD2020 for pointing this out in another thread!


----------



## skylark

Doram said:


> If you are getting unexpected sour shots -
> I found out I made a stupid mistake and feel I need to share it in case I am not the only one: check your temp setting!
> I assumed that the middle position ('0') is the medium temperature, but I was wrong. The actual medium is position '1' (switch pushed on the left side). Moving from 0 to 1 instantly fixed my sour shots. A big thank you goes to @PD2020 for pointing this out in another thread!


Isnt it numbered 0, I, II to correspond with low, medium, high or warm, medium, hot whichever .... that's the way I read it. The bodies I've watched seem to use the 'I' setting or medium.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> Isnt it numbered 0, I, II to correspond with low, medium, high or warm, medium, hot whichever .... that's the way I read it. The bodies I've watched seem to use the 'I' setting or medium.
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 Doram is merely saying that those numerals (0, I, II) are not in the left to right order. Instead it is mid-left-right position.


----------



## skylark

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Doram is merely saying that those numerals (0, I, II) are not in the left to right order. Instead it is mid-left-right position.


Yes, appreciated. I could understand if the switch wasn't annotated as 0 I II but it is. Suppose I must've gone into it a bit too far ...

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## PD2020

Doram said:


> If you are getting unexpected sour shots -
> 
> I found out I made a stupid mistake and feel I need to share it in case I am not the only one: check your temp setting!
> I assumed that the middle position ('0') is the medium temperature, but I was wrong. The actual medium is position '1' (switch pushed on the left side). Moving from 0 to 1 instantly fixed my sour shots. A big thank you goes to @PD2020 for pointing this out in another thread!


 The switch is annotated correctly and the instructions are clear on what each symbol means.

But the ordering of the numbers (0-Low, 1-Medium, 2-Hot) doesn't correspond to their position on the switch (1-Medium, 0-Low, 2-Hot).

It's like if you had a remote controller for TV and you changed the order of the buttons from: [1 2 3 | 4 5 6 | 7 8 9] to: [3 9 5 | 8 4 2 | 7 6 1]. The labels are correct but not where you'd expect them to be. It's unavoidably going to cause confusion for a percentage of users (including me). One of those things that it's obvious once you know it... 😉

Once you get it right though, the coffee is fantastic! 

M - MEDIUM | L - LOW | H - HOT


----------



## PD2020

Reminds me of this comedy gig on telly 😉

[Person 1] Which letter in the alphabet follows the letter B?

A) B

B) C

C) A

[Person 2] C

[Person 1] WRONG! The correct answer was B - C.


----------



## skylark

PD2020 said:


> Reminds me of this comedy gig on telly
> [Person 1] Which letter in the alphabet follows the letter B?
> A) B
> B) C
> C) A
> 
> [Person 2] C
> [Person 1] WRONG! The correct answer was B - C.


Now I got the switch numbering but I diNt get this, strange eh 

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## PD2020

Again, it's obvious once you know it 😉


----------



## DavecUK

PD2020 said:


> Reminds me of this comedy gig on telly 😉
> 
> [Person 1] Which letter in the alphabet follows the letter B?
> 
> A) B
> 
> B) C
> 
> C) A
> 
> [Person 2] C
> 
> [Person 1] WRONG! The correct answer was B - C.


 Well there could be a number of answers.

A follows B because it's in front of A and B follows C because it's behind C

So the answer could be C) A


----------



## KyNg

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You shouldn't need to change the gasket to use a different PF, providing it's made to the same specifications (position and thickness of the lugs).


 Thanks sir that's help.. btw do the pl580w lelit bottomless porta fit the vst basket 18gr or 20gr? @Stanic i remember i ever look at your setup using lelit wood pf right? I am wondering.. if it's not fit i'll cancel my order..


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

KyNg said:


> Thanks sir that's help.. btw do the pl580w lelit bottomless porta fit the vst basket 18gr or 20gr? @Stanic i remember i ever look at your setup using lelit wood pf right? I am wondering.. if it's not fit i'll cancel my order..


 You defo did not look at my setup! I don't have a MaraX nor a wooden handle PF.

regardless... VST18g will fit Lelit PF spouted or bottomless. (VST20g *should* fit a bottomless PF no problem.


----------



## KyNg

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You defo did not look at my setup! I don't have a MaraX nor a wooden handle PF.
> 
> regardless... VST18g will fit Lelit PF spouted or bottomless. (VST20g *should* fit a bottomless PF no problem.


 Thanks again sir thats help i asked lelit by email and they said they only recommend their brand so i ask here. hha sorry i mean stanic not you sir i remember ever saw his show off post of mara x somewhere but so cool.. 🤣


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

KyNg said:


> Thanks again sir thats help i asked lelit by email and they said they only recommend their brand so i ask here. hha sorry i mean stanic not you sir i remember ever saw his show off post of mara x somewhere but so cool.. 🤣


 Yeah. Of course Lelit would say that. 😉 - would you expect asking VW if you could fit a Vauxhall part on their cars, even a generic one? Of course they would say it doesn't work. 👍

for what's worth, @Jason11 has a Rocket bottomless PF on his MaraX. Works perfectly. I have an ECM on my Elizabeth, and I also tested the Rocket one. Both work and lock at exactly the same position. 
ps: there's no need to call me "sir". 😊


----------



## skylark

I've a quick question on Marax portafilter baskets, specifically the 14-18 one which never came with my machine. I asked BB to send me one, which they did, and I'm not sure it's the right one as my 58.55 tamper won't fit enough to tamp and the shape looks different to the others. It's got a rounded bottom, the blind basket, which I think is just an infilled 14-18 by its size, and the 18-21 triple basket are both stepped at the bottom. Is anyone understanding me ?And the retaining 'lip' as I call it cos it's a ridged basket is recessed on this basket whereas the triple protrudes. It's difficult to explain other than my to doesn't fit the basket they've sent, i think. Can someone tell me whether their red tamp fits the 14-18 basket to any depth??
Here's a photo of what BB sent me and second photo us of the blind basket into which the tamp fits perfectly.
The triple basket is also good but the one I've r ceived looks nothing like it or the blind basket Any help appreciated before I go back to BB for a second time as it's the double basket I'll be using the most ...























Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Jason11

This is the 14-18g basket that came with my MaraX


----------



## Jason11

And another view


----------



## Doram

skylark said:


> I asked BB to send me one, which they did, and I'm not sure it's the right one as my 58.55 tamper won't fit enough to tamp and the shape looks different to the others.


 Is your top pic the basket you got from BB? If yes, then it is different from what I got with my machine (in the photo below, you can see mine on the right and yours on the left, and it's clear the shape is different). I can't tell you if your basket it good or not, but if mine is original Lelit basket, then your is probably not.


----------



## skylark

Thanks. That confirms I've not got the right basket then. That one's profile is similar to the triple basket, mine's not. Back to BB I go 

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## skylark

Cheers guys!!

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Doram

skylark said:


> Thanks. That confirms I've not got the right basket then. That one's profile is similar to the triple basket, mine's not. Back to BB I go


 They probably don't have the original basket (maybe got lost during testing), and this is why they sent you something else. Why don't you take the opportunity that they need to make it right for you, and given the hassle you already had - ask them to send you an IMS or VST instead (even if you need to pay something for the difference)?

You are likely to want an upgraded basket at some point anyway, so why not make some lemonade out of this lemon? (I have all the original baskets that came with the machine, and don't use any of them because I have IMS baskets).


----------



## Jason11

this


----------



## skylark

Doram said:


> They probably don't have the original basket (maybe got lost during testing), and this is why they sent you something else. Why don't you take the opportunity that they need to make it right for you, and given the hassle you already had - ask them to send you an IMS or VST instead (even if you need to pay something for the difference)?
> You are likely to want an upgraded basket at some point anyway, so why not make some lemonade out of this lemon? (I have all the original baskets that came with the machine, and don't use any of them because I have IMS baskets).


Could be an idea. Are those baskets compatible itj the 58.55 to though, not undersized ?

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Doram

skylark said:


> Could be an idea. Are those baskets compatible itj the 58.55 to though, not undersized ?


 It's an E61 machine, so any E61 basket will fit (providing it's not too deep, as the biggest baskets might be and only fit a bottomless). Also, BB will know which baskets fit your machine. If you go for it, I would ask for a riderless basket.


----------



## Jason11

skylark said:


> Could be an idea. Are those baskets compatible itj the 58.55 to though, not undersized ?
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


I use an 18g VST with the MaraX stock
tamper and it works 

Just a thought and possible long shot can you check the diameter of your tamper with a vernier to see if it's been machined the correct size?


----------



## skylark

Jason11 said:


> I use an 18g VST with the MaraX stock
> tamper and it works
> 
> Just a thought and possible long shot can you check the diameter of your tamper with a vernier to see if it's been machined the correct size?


We'll I'd be surprised if it had. 
It fits the other baskets like a glove 

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> We'll I'd be surprised if it had.
> It fits the other baskets like a glove
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 I wouldn't worry, really. Get yourself a VST18g and you'll never look back. The original baskets are not great anyway.


----------



## robti

Doram said:


> They probably don't have the original basket (maybe got lost during testing), and this is why they sent you something else. Why don't you take the opportunity that they need to make it right for you, and given the hassle you already had - ask them to send you an IMS or VST instead (even if you need to pay something for the difference)?
> 
> You are likely to want an upgraded basket at some point anyway, so why not make some lemonade out of this lemon? (I have all the original baskets that came with the machine, and don't use any of them because I have IMS baskets).


 This also


----------



## skylark

Handy to have another proper basket though, man's you can prep ahead ...

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Stanic

KyNg said:


> Thanks sir that's help.. btw do the pl580w lelit bottomless porta fit the vst basket 18gr or 20gr? @Stanic i remember i ever look at your setup using lelit wood pf right? I am wondering.. if it's not fit i'll cancel my order..


 no, the wooden Lelit ones are too expensive for my taste - I've got a generic E61 naked PF bought here on the forum and the double spout one that came with the machine, and just changed the handles, you can get them for around 8-10 euro, you'll need the M12 screw ones

and I use a 8mm Cafelat group head gasket


----------



## KyNg

Stanic said:


> no, the wooden Lelit ones are too expensive for my taste - I've got a generic E61 naked PF bought here on the forum and the double spout one that came with the machine, and just changed the handles, you can get them for around 8-10 euro, you'll need the M12 screw ones
> 
> and I use a 8mm Cafelat group head gasket


 Aha.. i see i see how can the colour so match with pla2200 did u paint it so cool, i thought it was the lelit one until i see it again today theres something on the end of the handles.. hha it's hard to find one in my area so far away from yours, here only sell the cheap chinesse one i think..


----------



## Stanic

KyNg said:


> Aha.. i see i see how can the colour so match with pla2200 did u paint it so cool, i thought it was the lelit one until i see it again today theres something on the end of the handles.. hha it's hard to find one in my area so far away from yours, here only sell the cheap chinesse one i think..


 Check out here

The price has gone up a bit unfortunately, perhaps because of the covid?

It is italian walnut so it matches the Lelit walnut knobs (with a bit of luck I guess)

I added a metal eye so that I can hang it up

Also, there is no guarantee that the Lelit walnut PF will colour match the other bits..


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Stanic said:


> Also, there is no guarantee that the Lelit walnut PF will colour match the other bits..


 This. Even the legs of my Niche Zero don't all match colour wise. It's just nature.


----------



## disq

BB has Mara X in stock now! Mine just shipped! (Hope FedEx treats it well...)

Also: First post on the forum, hi.


----------



## skylark

disq said:


> BB has Mara X in stock now! Mine just shipped! (Hope FedEx treats it well...)
> 
> Also: First post on the forum, hi.


 Hi to you too. It will arrive well boxed, even Fedex couldn't get through the box inside a box 

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## PD2020

disq said:


> BB has Mara X in stock now! Mine just shipped! (Hope FedEx treats it well...)
> 
> Also: First post on the forum, hi.


 Hi disq. Welcome to the MaraX club 🙂


----------



## disq

skylark said:


> Hi to you too. It will arrive week boxed, even F Dec couldn't get through the box inside a box
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 This video from Lelit Insider suggests otherwise ????


----------



## Burnzy

KyNg said:


> Thanks sir that's help.. btw do the pl580w lelit bottomless porta fit the vst basket 18gr or 20gr? @Stanic i remember i ever look at your setup using lelit wood pf right? I am wondering.. if it's not fit i'll cancel my order..


 Ive got the lelit wooden naked portafilter, i use a ridgeless 18 VST and it fits better than the Lelit baskets, also the lelit tamper works perfectly in the VST as well 💪🏼


----------



## skylark

Anyone know what he coating is for on the inside bottom of the baskets? It's like a screening type of film? I've still only got the triple basket, BB are dragging their heels on sending me the missing double basket so was just wondering if it's on all baskets?

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> , BB are dragging their heels on sending me the missing double basket


 I thought they sent you a generic E61 basket? (Which is potentially better or no different than the ones you'd get with the MaraX anyway?)


----------



## skylark

Yes and no. What they sent me WAS a generic double basket but I'm not able to use it cos the tamp doesn't fit so I want a proper double ridged basket. The portafilter baskets are ridged so I can't be bothered swapping spring in and out once I have a double which matches the triple in design. Anyway ... the triple has a 'film' on the bottom, inside, any idea why. It would seem to prevent water passing through or does it work to limit the flow in any way? I haven't got a double to compare it with  yet ...

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> Yes and no. What they sent me WAS a generic double basket but I'm not able to use it cos the tamp doesn't fit so I want a proper double ridged basket. The portafilter baskets are ridged so I can't be bothered swapping spring in and out once I have a double which matches the triple in design. Anyway ... the triple has a 'film' on the bottom, inside, any idea why. It would seem to prevent water passing through or does it work to limit the flow in any way? I haven't got a double to compare it with
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yet ...
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 Strange. I think the tamper on the MaraX is 58.5mm? I have a box standard E61 basket, generic (brand: Nuova Ricambi), nominal 14g (can fit 16-17g no problem) and my 58.4mm tamper fits in no issues.

Not sure about the film inside the basket. Maybe someone with a MaraX can comment. On the Elizabeth, it doesn't have a film at all. It's just metal.

Anyway: I use a VST 18g. I don't bother with stock baskets. Waste of time ????


----------



## Jason11

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Strange. I think the tamper on the MaraX is 58.5mm? I have a box standard E61 basket, generic (brand: Nuova Ricambi), nominal 14g (can fit 16-17g no problem) and my 58.4mm tamper fits in no issues.
> Not sure about the film inside the basket. Maybe someone with a MaraX can comment. On the Elizabeth, it doesn't have a film at all. It's just metal.
> Anyway: I use a VST 18g. I don't bother with stock baskets. Waste of time


I'm sure the stock MaraX tamper is 58.55mm


----------



## skylark

Yes, it's 58.55 the tamp and the reason it doesn't fit is that the ridge is inverted into the basket so there's a rim inside the basket which stops the tamp from pressing. My double has just arrived and eventually, a result!! But, you're right, these stick baskets look cheap so I'll upgrade to 20 and 22g vst baskets asap. Any suggestions on a non stock showerscreen anyone? May as well spend when I'm in the mood 

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> Yes, it's 58.55 the tamp and the reason it doesn't fit is that the ridge is inverted into the basket so there's a rim inside the basket which stops the tamp from pressing. My double has just arrived and eventually, a result!! But, you're right, these stick baskets look cheap so I'll upgrade to 20 and 22g vst baskets asap. Any suggestions on a non stock showerscreen anyone? May as well spend when I'm in the mood
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 Man, take a photo of the inverted ridge! It's a first!

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/competition-e61-shower-screen-by-ims.html

Highly recommended for E61 machines.


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/competition-e61-shower-screen-by-ims.html


 If you get the shower screen, make sure you get the one linked to in @MediumRoastSteam post (the IM - Integrated Mesh one), and not the Wire Mesh (WM), which costs a pound less but seems more similar to the stock screen. If you want a cleaner screen with less places for the coffee to get stuck - it's the IM. There is also a version with NanoQuartz coating for a tenner more. It is supposed to be non-stick, but there are online debates and people claiming the coating peels off. Some like it, others don't. 
I have the IM and happy with it, though I doubt if it makes any difference in the cup. It does seem to be a little easier to keep clean, but I may be just imagining that. It is neat to look at, if that is something you are in too. 🙂


----------



## efrain-PR

skylark said:


> Yes, it's 58.55 the tamp and the reason it doesn't fit is that the ridge is inverted into the basket so there's a rim inside the basket which stops the tamp from pressing. My double has just arrived and eventually, a result!! But, you're right, these stick baskets look cheap so I'll upgrade to 20 and 22g vst baskets asap. Any suggestions on a non stock showerscreen anyone? May as well spend when I'm in the mood
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 The 22g VST doesn't fit the Lelit portafilter handle, the spouted one or the bottomless (it's tapered at the bottom it would not snap in) I bough another non OEM bottomless portafilter since the vendor wouldn't take the 22g back.


----------



## skylark

Surely it fits a bottomless portafilter ?


----------



## skylark

If it won't fit a genuine Lelit naked portafilter what baskets will, anyone any ideas. This whole basket issue is a real pain? Will it fit? Will the tamp fit? Does Lelit do any genuine naked/deep basket combos?

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> If it won't fit a genuine Lelit naked portafilter what baskets will, anyone any ideas. This whole basket issue is a real pain? Will it fit? Will the tamp fit? Does Lelit do any genuine naked/deep basket combos?
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 Bella Barista seems to do the combo. You could clarify with them to be 100% sure?


----------



## skylark

Not so sure there, they couldn't supply me with the correct Lelit basket I was missing, took over 2 weeks to get that sorted!!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Hmmm. I see your point. Judging by this picture, it doesn't seem to fit anything too deep and wide (i.e.: high capacity IMS/VST baskets). Silly design... In a way, glad I didn't get that PF, although it looks really nice.

Copyright: extracted from Bella Barista's product page.


----------



## skylark

But surely if any vst basket fits a Lelit portafilter in terms of width and ability to tamp using the supplied 58.55 tamp then the depth when using a naked portafilter won't be a restriction, it is bottomless after all.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> But surely if any vst basket fits a Lelit portafilter in terms of width and ability to tamp using the supplied 58.55 tamp then the depth when using a naked portafilter won't be a restriction, it is bottomless after all.


 Not quite! The bottomless is tapered towards the bottom. Some are just a straight cut. If the basket is deeper, then it won't fit height wise. Widthwise, there is no issue. A 58.55mm tamp is perfectly fine - very snug, granted - but fine.

Also, VST/IMS baskets are straight walls, and not tapered like the stock Lelit ones (and most E61s stock baskets).

edit: When I say deep and wide I say so because VST/IMS baskets have straight walls, and are wide all the way down, unlike the stock bassets which tend to be tapered.


----------



## efrain-PR

The 18g and 20g VST (and any smaller) will fit the Lelit bottomless and spouted portafilter I have them, but the 22g is a no go to "tall".


----------



## njlhyde

What's the consensus on ridged versus ridgeless VST baskets

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

njlhyde said:


> What's the consensus on ridged versus ridgeless VST baskets
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


 For home, the preference is always RidgeLESS, because:

- There's no ridge inside the basket;
- It's easy to pop out and pop it back in;
- It's unlikely you are going to lose it;
- It's unlikely you are going to knock it out in the bin.


----------



## njlhyde

MediumRoastSteam said:


> For home, the preference is always RidgeLESS, because:
> - There's no ridge inside the basket;
> - It's easy to pop out and pop it back in;
> - It's unlikely you are going to lose it;
> - It's unlikely you are going to knock it out in the bin.


Many thanks

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 1823Dave

Sorry if this has been asked already, but which IMS screen are you guys using? Do you have a link for one? Cheers!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

1823Dave said:


> Sorry if this has been asked already, but which IMS screen are you guys using? Do you have a link for one? Cheers!


 https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/competition-e61-shower-screen-by-ims.html


----------



## 1823Dave

MediumRoastSteam said:


> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/competition-e61-shower-screen-by-ims.html


Thanks!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

1823Dave said:


> MediumRoastSteam said:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/competition-e61-shower-screen-by-ims.html
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!
Click to expand...

 And whist you are at it, consider getting a VST 18g. 😉


----------



## 1823Dave

MediumRoastSteam said:


> And whist you are at it, consider getting a VST 18g.


Oh I already have a VST 18g and 20g, along with a bottomless PF.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

1823Dave said:


> Oh I already have a VST 18g and 20g, along with a bottomless PF.


 Nice! Silicone gasket then? From Cafelat? Like for like replacement is the 8.5mm blue one, but @Jason11 got an 8mm red, and seems to work much, much better.


----------



## 1823Dave

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Nice! Silicone gasket then? From Cafelat? Like for like replacement is the 8.5mm blue one, but @Jason11 got an 8mm red, and seems to work much, much better.


Ah yes, excellent, forgot about that! I'll grab one of those as well.


----------



## robti

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Nice! Silicone gasket then? From Cafelat? Like for like replacement is the 8.5mm blue one, but @Jason11 got an 8mm red, and seems to work much, much better.


 Funny I got a 8mm red one for mine and the pf would lock at 7 o'clock till after one month I dropped it in pulycaffe and it now locks at 6 o'clock. It has been out and cleaned in hot water and detergent twice before this and nothing changed


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

robti said:


> Funny I got a 8mm red one for mine and the pf would lock at 7 o'clock till after one month I dropped it in pulycaffe and it now locks at 6 o'clock. It has been out and cleaned in hot water and detergent twice before this and nothing changed


 If the 8mm was locking at 7 o'clock, where was the original 8.5mm locking at?


----------



## robti

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If the 8mm was locking at 7 o'clock, where was the original 8.5mm locking at?


 Original was locking just before 6


----------



## KyNg

@PD2020 saw your thread on the sourness thing.. i think we better not really look at the time but more on the grind setting.. i'm also frustrated on my bean because nowhere near sweet but sour after adjusting the grinder to finer and finer then i found the notes.. sometime it can took 40 to 50 something seconds from turn on the lever.. i saw on post of the user else where with 1st line comment i think on reddit he pulls 55s.. i was wondering since i'm still newbie as well but want to catch that notes and taste more than time.. maybe others can give more insight as well..


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

KyNg said:


> @PD2020 saw your thread on the sourness thing.. i think we better not really look at the time but more on the grind setting.. i'm also frustrated on my bean because nowhere near sweet but sour after adjusting the grinder to finer and finer then i found the notes.. sometime it can took 40 to 50 something seconds from turn on the lever.. i saw on post of the user else where with 1st line comment i think on reddit he pulls 55s.. i was wondering since i'm still newbie as well but want to catch that notes and taste more than time.. maybe others can give more insight as well..


 This is an area I don't understand very well. But, if you grind finer and finer, then you'd extract more.

the good thing is that you found the sweet spot for your equipment paired with your accessories and beans: whether it's 30s or 50s doesn't matter, as long as it tastes good!


----------



## PD2020

KyNg said:


> @PD2020 saw your thread on the sourness thing.. i think we better not really look at the time but more on the grind setting.. i'm also frustrated on my bean because nowhere near sweet but sour after adjusting the grinder to finer and finer then i found the notes.. sometime it can took 40 to 50 something seconds from turn on the lever.. i saw on post of the user else where with 1st line comment i think on reddit he pulls 55s.. i was wondering since i'm still newbie as well but want to catch that notes and taste more than time.. maybe others can give more insight as well..


 Agreed. The thing is if I go any fiber with my grind setting, I'm getting channelling. I'm also on 15g dose, which allows to grind extra fine. I'm on VST baskets which allow to grind finer. MaraX has preinfusion, which should help as well. Still sour.

Test of thirds shows sour-diluted-diluted at the finest non-channeling setting.

Not sure how to fix that.


----------



## njlhyde

Hi All

So I finally ordered myself a Mara X after months of torturous indecision on numerous machines. The posts and advice on this forum has been instrumental to my decision so many thanks.

one question I have is where is best to buy some Molykote 111 to lubricate the cam?


----------



## njlhyde

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If the 8mm was locking at 7 o'clock, where was the original 8.5mm locking at?


 Just checking - ordered Mara X with red 8mm Cafelat gasket, IMS 200 IM and Rocket bottomless portafiler From BB

Should this should be ok?


----------



## PD2020

It will be ok 🙂


----------



## njlhyde

PD2020 said:


> It will be ok 🙂


 Glad you said that, just got confirmation that it's been shipped 🥳


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

njlhyde said:


> Just checking - ordered Mara X with red 8mm Cafelat gasket, IMS 200 IM and Rocket bottomless portafiler From BB
> 
> Should this should be ok?


 Yep! I don't have a MaraX, but I know someone who has a MaraX, a Cafelat 8mm and a Rocket bottomless PF and is a very happy chap!

@Jason11 🙂


----------



## Jason11

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yep! I don't have a MaraX, but I know someone who has a MaraX, a Cafelat 8mm and a Rocket bottomless PF and is a very happy chap!
> 
> @Jason11 🙂


 Great combination yes. Used together with an 18g VST basket.

I don't have the IMS shower screen yet but that is on my shopping list. 👍🏻


----------



## skylark

Guys, a quick question. I'm having problems getting dialled in. Using 14-18 double, 16g in and shot is running way too fast, I'm only crawling to 6bar of pressure. When I grind finer, I've tried, and pressure goes even lower it barely gets out of initial 'prefusion' of around 4bars. Shouldn't it go up?What's going on and should I keep trying to grind finer for a slower shot cos it ain't working. Blindfilter gives me full 10ish pressure. How can I get to that 9bar figure??


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@skylark -

If the blind basket is getting to 10bar pressure, then all is well. There's nothing wrong with the first M, the "Machine". What you are seeing is the problem being with the second "M" - La "Mano" - or "The Hand" - your skills being challenged 😂 - But panic not, we are here to help you.

If your shots are too fast, i.e.: you are grinding too coarse, then the coffee puck is not building enough pressure, and hence why you only see the manometer going up to 6 bar.

In summary, grind finer. Put 18g in the basket. Tamp. Put a 10p coin on top of the puck. Lock the PF in. Remove the PF. Is there an indent in the puck? If there isn't then keep 18g. If there's go to 17g, and then repeat.

Remove the coin, lock the PF and pull.

Which grinder have you?


----------



## Bicky

njlhyde said:


> one question I have is where is best to buy some Molykote 111 to lubricate the cam?


 I got mine on Ebay. It's not cheap, but a tube will probably last forever 😆


----------



## Doram

njlhyde said:


> Just checking - ordered Mara X with red 8mm Cafelat gasket, IMS 200 IM and Rocket bottomless portafiler From BB


 It will be okay, as long as you are aware that the red gasket is 8mm thick, while the stock gasket is 8.5mm. If you want to keep the thickness you have on the stock gasket, you need the blue Cafelat.


----------



## Doram

njlhyde said:


> one question I have is where is best to buy some Molykote 111 to lubricate the cam?


 Not sure how it compares to Molykote, but I bought a different food grade silicone grease for half the price of Molykote (FilterLogic CFL651). Used it to lube the cam and it seems to be fine. Has good reviews on amazon too.

If anyone wants to give it a try: https://www.amazon.co.uk/FilterLogic-CFL651-Silicone-Lubricant-Grease/dp/B081B4XK8T/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2W35NNDSSMYER&dchild=1&keywords=silicone+grease+food+grade&qid=1600697503&sprefix=silicone+grease+food%2Caps%2C154&sr=8-5

Mine is the same from eBay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FilterLogic-CFL651-100g-Silicone-Grease-for-Gaskets-O-rings-Bearings-Food-Grade/153720910635?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## Jason11

Doram said:


> It will be okay, as long as you are aware that the red gasket is 8mm thick, while the stock gasket is 8.5mm. If you want to keep the thickness you have on the stock gasket, you need the blue Cafelat.


 With the rocket naked PF and 18g VST combo on mine the 8mm gasket gives a better 6 o'clock position when locked which is more like 7 o'clock with the stock 8.5mm gasket.


----------



## skylark

Jony said:


> If your doubting now, its going to be a waste of money hang on and save up for a DB. 😎🤣





MediumRoastSteam said:


> @skylark -
> 
> If the blind basket is getting to 10bar pressure, then all is well. There's nothing wrong with the first M, the "Machine". What you are seeing is the problem being with the second "M" - La "Mano" - or "The Hand" - your skills being challenged 😂 - But panic not, we are here to help you.
> 
> If your shots are too fast, i.e.: you are grinding too coarse, then the coffee puck is not building enough pressure, and hence why you only see the manometer going up to 6 bar.
> 
> In summary, grind finer. Put 18g in the basket. Tamp. Put a 10p coin on top of the puck. Lock the PF in. Remove the PF. Is there an indent in the puck? If there isn't then keep 18g. If there's go to 17g, and then repeat.
> 
> Remove the coin, lock the PF and pull.
> 
> Which grinder have you?


 Thanks. Understood ... it's a specialista grinder. Problem is that when I do grind finer the pressure goes even lower, it barely goes above the preinfusion of around 4 bars so grinding finer isn't helping ...


----------



## skylark

Jason11 said:


> With the rocket naked PF and 18g VST combo on mine the 8mm gasket gives a better 6 o'clock position when locked which is more like 7 o'clock with the stock 8.5mm gasket.


 Surely all you need to do is use the machine, the stock gasket will bed in without the need for a lesser thickness. Just needs a bit of use.


----------



## Jason11

skylark said:


> Surely all you need to do is use the machine, the stock gasket will bed in without the need for a lesser thickness. Just needs a bit of use.


 That's not why I switched gaskets.

The stock PF was in the 6 o'clock position with stock gasket but the rocket naked PF wasn't so I'd say the gasket was bedded in fine. I've Been using the machine for a couple of months with the stock gasket too. 👍🏻


----------



## skylark

Jason11 said:


> That's not why I switched gaskets.
> 
> The stock PF was in the 6 o'clock position with stock gasket but the rocket naked PF wasn't so I'd say the gasket was bedded in fine. I've Been using the machine for a couple of months with the stock gasket too. 👍🏻


 I see, so the rocket portafilter lugs must be slightly thicker requiring a thinner gasket.


----------



## skylark

Bicky said:


> I got mine on Ebay. It's not cheap, but a tube will probably last forever 😆


 I bought two 100g tubes at a tenner each so that's two lifetimes worth 😄


----------



## Stanic

skylark said:


> I bought two 100g tubes at a tenner each so that's two lifetimes worth 😄


 But the shelf life is only 5 years 😜


----------



## skylark

Stanic said:


> But the shelf life is only 5 years 😜


 I'd better get lubing then 😊


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> Thanks. Understood ... it's a specialista grinder. Problem is that when I do grind finer the pressure goes even lower, it barely goes above the preinfusion of around 4 bars so grinding finer isn't helping ...


 Hmmm... Are you sure you are grinding finer? There were people here who thought they were grinding finer, but were actually grinding coarser! On the Eureka, to grind finer you need to turn the knob *clockwise* with the burrs moving.

It makes no sense that grinding finer decreases pressure.

Needless to say... The next step is a video of your grinding / prep / pulling with the camera focused on the group and on the pressure gauge.


----------



## TacticalCake

I realized this may come across as pretty silly, but does anyone noticed their MaraX ran abit more noisier than you first got it over the few months of use?

The chasis seems to be a bit more "rattle-ly" compared to when I first got it when the pump's being turned on.


----------



## skylark

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Hmmm... Are you sure you are grinding finer? There were people here who thought they were grinding finer, but were actually grinding coarser! On the Eureka, to grind finer you need to turn the knob *clockwise* with the burrs moving.
> 
> It makes no sense that grinding finer decreases pressure.
> 
> Needless to say... The next step is a video of your grinding / prep / pulling with the camera focused on the group and on the pressure gauge.


 Yeah, finer is screwing down. I'm out of beans now, been pulling shots all afternoon. Ned to order a couple of kilos of decent fresh espresso beans, chocolaty fudgy so that I can at least get a decent latte out of them.


----------



## grumble

MediumRoastSteam said:


> On the Eureka, to grind finer you need to turn the knob *clockwise* with the burrs moving.


 I just got a Mignon which is my first electric grinder, are you saying the grinder needs to be 'on' (as in button pressed in and whirring) when you move the adjustment wheel?

I did not know that!


----------



## skylark

grumble said:


> I just got a Mignon which is my first electric grinder, are you saying the grinder needs to be 'on' (as in button pressed in and whirring) when you move the adjustment wheel?
> 
> I did not know that!


 Yes, for most grinders going finer should be with the burrs moving to avoid damage. Going finer to coarser it's not needed.


----------



## Jason11

grumble said:


> I just got a Mignon which is my first electric grinder, are you saying the grinder needs to be 'on' (as in button pressed in and whirring) when you move the adjustment wheel?
> 
> I did not know that!


 It's a good idea to adjust burrs on all grinders with them switched on if going finer.


----------



## grumble

Oops. Thanks peeps.


----------



## skylark

grumble said:


> Oops. Thanks peeps.


 Thinking being that if you're running the grinder and overadjust then you'll hear the problem of the burrs touching. If the grinder isn't running you run the risk of overadjusting, lockng the burrs which won't end well when you switch the motor on 😏


----------



## grumble

So given that my grinder still works, I should be grand right?


----------



## Martin L

Two months in with the Mara X and should I chemically clean?

Since my last post on this after about 1 months use I have now acquired a Niche Zero grinder.

Initially I was worried that I would find the whole "weighing" thing a bit if a faff but once you start to churn out excellent coffee, shot after shot, then really you just go with it.

I really do love my Mara X and Niche Zero combination and if you take a bit of time to get things right the results are really good. I have not strayed from the minimum temperature setting as yet and use between 18 and 18.5 gms of coffee in the triple basket for really excellent results. The Niche is set at about 16 to 18 depending on the coffee and I tend to use the darker roasts.

I now have the confidence to try more coffee varieties and will even try going lighter.

I only pull 2 or 3 shots per day and so far I have not chemically cleaned the machine but I do regularly remove the basket to clean it. Is chemically cleaning really necessary?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Martin L said:


> Two months in with the Mara X and should I chemically clean?
> 
> Since my last post on this after about 1 months use I have now acquired a Niche Zero grinder.
> 
> Initially I was worried that I would find the whole "weighing" thing a bit if a faff but once you start to churn out excellent coffee, shot after shot, then really you just go with it.
> 
> I really do love my Mara X and Niche Zero combination and if you take a bit of time to get things right the results are really good. I have not strayed from the minimum temperature setting as yet and use between 18 and 18.5 gms of coffee in the triple basket for really excellent results. The Niche is set at about 16 to 18 depending on the coffee and I tend to use the darker roasts.
> 
> I now have the confidence to try more coffee varieties and will even try going lighter.
> 
> I only pull 2 or 3 shots per day and so far I have not chemically cleaned the machine but I do regularly remove the basket to clean it. Is chemically cleaning really necessary?


 The basket, as in the portafilter basket?

Don't you remove the shower screen too? If you haven't, do that and check behind it. That's what mixes with your coffee.

You need to chemically backflush every 6 weeks or so and re-lube the cam if you want to keep your machine clean and in good condition.


----------



## njlhyde

Mara X arrived today.

Checked it over for delivery damage and see that it looks better in the flesh than in the photos - very impressed and glad I went for this rather than something bigger that would take over the kitchen. However - I have had to put it away for 3 weeks until my birthday 😢


----------



## njlhyde

FYI the Rocket bottomless is a great match for the Lelit.

My only slight gripe is that the wood finish on the included Lelit tamper feels a bit rough.


----------



## Stanic

Martin L said:


> Two months in with the Mara X and should I chemically clean?


 depends on how many drinks are made and what is your cleaning regime

I make 3-4 doubles a day, cleaning with Espazzola after each shot and water backflush at the end of day, I drop the shower screen once a week and clean the group head as well,

and I did a chemical cleaning plus re-greasing after 2,5 months of use, the insides were not terribly dirty but there was definitely a layer of the finest coffee particles and the output water when doing the chemical backflush was brownish, so I think it was certainly worth it

I am planing to do the next round around end of November/beginning of December


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

njlhyde said:


> Mara X arrived today.
> 
> ..... .
> 
> However - I have had to put it away for 3 weeks until my birthday 😢


 Birthday is just a concept. This is something I'd never understood (and never did!), keeping something you already bought, seen, until a specific date.

I simply use it and, on my birthday, remind myself (or, if you have a party) point out to the present. Let's face it, it's hardly a surprise.

personal opinion of course, YMMV.


----------



## Jason11

njlhyde said:


> Mara X arrived today.
> 
> Checked it over for delivery damage and see that it looks better in the flesh than in the photos - very impressed and glad I went for this rather than something bigger that would take over the kitchen. However - I have had to put it away for 3 weeks until my birthday 😢


 Or you could just use it now and buy something else for yourself for your birthday like a really good grinder 😂


----------



## aganov

njlhyde said:


> one question I have is where is best to buy some Molykote 111 to lubricate the cam?


 I bought mine from here https://www.zoro.co.uk/shop/lubricants-and-chemicals/greases/111-molykote-100gm/p/ZT1036869X


----------



## Martin L

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The basket, as in the portafilter basket?
> 
> Don't you remove the shower screen too? If you haven't, do that and check behind it. That's what mixes with your coffee.
> 
> You need to chemically backflush every 6 weeks or so and re-lube the cam if you want to keep your machine clean and in good condition.


 Sorry I was not being very accurate with my words. I make 2 or 3 double shots per day and I clean the portafilter basket after each shot plus I flush the screen after every shot but I also regularly remove and clean the shower screen wiping clean the grouphead at the same time.

I should backflush more I suppose and I will chemically clean shortly and look to see if much comes off.


----------



## Willem

Hi guys

Joined the club (and forum!) yesterday; over the moon so far with this beaut! Loads of thanks to everyone here; this thread, along with Dave's review and vids, has been invaluable. Managed to pull some decent shots quite quickly, but my milk steaming is terrible...! Bella Barista have also been a great support during the purchase process.

Random question; I keep seeing people refer to post #s within the thread, but I can't see them anywhere...am I going crazy or do people just count them out based on 25 posts per page...?!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Willem said:


> Hi guys
> 
> Joined the club (and forum!) yesterday; over the moon so far with this beaut! Loads of thanks to everyone here; this thread, along with Dave's review and vids, has been invaluable. Managed to pull some decent shots quite quickly, but my milk steaming is terrible...! Bella Barista have also been a great support during the purchase process.
> 
> Random question; I keep seeing people refer to post #s within the thread, but I can't see them anywhere...am I going crazy or do people just count them out based on 25 posts per page...?!
> 
> View attachment 45652


 Hello! Lovely machine! You are not going crazy 🙂 - The forum web app has been updated a few days ago, and, amongst other things, the post numbers are no longer visible. 🤷‍♂️

Welcome!


----------



## Willem

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Hello! Lovely machine! You are not going crazy 🙂 - The forum web app has been updated a few days ago, and, amongst other things, the post numbers are no longer visible. 🤷‍♂️
> 
> Welcome!


 Thanks! Thought I was losing it for a moment there! 😄


----------



## Willem

Stanic said:


> I've also put the felt pads on the feet -but just the rear two, this gives me a stable machine when locking the PF in but still movable with the front feet lifted


 Just want to give a shout-out to this tip, thought it's really clever!


----------



## aganov

Mauro from Lelit uploaded very useful video of how to drain the boiler and HX.


----------



## robti

> 1 hour ago, aganov said:
> 
> Mauro from Lelit uploaded very useful video of how to drain the boiler and HX.


 Can I ask when you would do this ?


----------



## Stanic

robti said:


> Can I ask when you would do this ?


 When descaling or for transport


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Stanic said:


> When descaling or for transport


 Or to cycle the water in the service boiler.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Would I be turning my machine upside down like he does? No way! Would I put the machine on top of a crate or something so I can access the screws and the tap of the HX? Yes, definitely.


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Or to cycle the water in the service boiler.


 The purpose of changing the water in the service boiler is to refresh and get total dissolve solids down, right? But for this purpose you don't need to empty the exchanger, do you? How often does the service boiler need to be refreshed?

And for descaling - does the exchanger need to be flushed from the tap as shown in the video? Common sense is that it would be enough to just rinse with clean water without needing to drain, or am I missing something?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> The purpose of changing the water in the service boiler is to refresh and get total dissolve solids down, right? But for this purpose you don't need to empty the exchanger, do you? How often does the service boiler need to be refreshed?
> 
> And for descaling - does the exchanger need to be flushed from the tap as shown in the video? Common sense is that it would be enough to just rinse with clean water without needing to drain, or am I missing something?


 Correct. No need to empty the exchanger to recycle the boiler. I think it's good to refresh the water every other month at least, depending on usage.

maybe @Rob1 knows best here.

i suppose the good thing about the tap is that you don't need to rinse descaled through the group, which has chromed brass parts. Less risk of spoiling things or damaging the chrome, inside or outside.

avoid descaling. That's the best advice. 😉


----------



## Rob1

It's complicated. The best answer is to remineralise water with bicarbonates and forget about scaling. You'd only need to concern yourself with bicarbonates rising to the point beyond solubility and any corrosion concern related to the source of bicarbonates you may/may not have.

If you are using water with any hardness and alkalinity you will be surprised by how rapidly it concentrates to the point scaling will occur.

As an example I fill my 2 litre boiler with about 1.6l distilled water and let the auto-fill take care of it with water from the reservoir. After 5 weeks the minerals have concentrated to the point scaling would be a concern (that's about 1700ml fed into the boiler over about 35 days, so about 50ml a day). I've always communicated this with people but never actually bothered to calculate how quickly scaling would occur if I were to fill it with the water I use for brewing rather than DI water to start with....well I just did and I'm pretty shocked.

If it were filled with water with a Hardness of 28.82mg/l and Alkalinity of 41 mg/l to start with it would take only four days for the minerals to concentrate to the point scaling would occur if I used 50ml a day to steam at 125c.

This isn't really a major thing. It would be a very small amount of scale and it would probably be dissolved into the next water to fill the boiler or even as the boiler cools, but it wouldn't take long for this to stop happening. You'd want to flush every week to keep clear of scale and avoid ever having to descale (which is kind of the point). Of course you could just let scaling happen and perform a very light descale every few months but best to avoid this if possible.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Rob1 said:


> It's complicated. The best answer is to remineralise water with bicarbonates and forget about scaling. You'd only need to concern yourself with bicarbonates rising to the point beyond solubility and any corrosion concern related to the source of bicarbonates you may/may not have


 Thanks Rob, as always very insightful.

what would take for one having to worry about corrosion, if you remineralise with, say, 100mg per litre, with sodium bicarbonate?


----------



## Doram

Rob1 said:


> If you are using water with any hardness and alkalinity you will be surprised by how rapidly it concentrates to the point scaling will occur.


 Would Tesco Ashbeck be okay if the service boiler is flushed every week or two, or is that not going to be enough to avoid scaling?


----------



## Rob1

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Thanks Rob, as always very insightful.
> 
> what would take for one having to worry about corrosion, if you remineralise with, say, 100mg per litre, with sodium bicarbonate?


 Probably nothing with sodium bicarb. When I was looking into things that don't play well with 316l steel I was surprised to see potassium bicarbonate listed as causing tarnishing or pitting whereas no reaction was caused by sodium bicarb. Concentrations weren't given so I'm assuming 100%. Avoiding exceeding solubility and having it deposit on the bottom of a hot boiler seemed like a good idea, if not strictly a necessity. It was more a general statement of "think about what's in the water beyond scaling" than anything specific.



Doram said:


> Would Tesco Ashbeck be okay if the service boiler is flushed every week or two, or is that not going to be enough to avoid scaling?


 Depends on usage. I wouldn't use Ashbeck as bicarbonates are low and chlorides are high. If your boiler is made from copper and brass it might not be a big deal but in steel I wouldn't do it, though I might be overly cautious. Two weeks is going to be pushing it (and wasteful to be flushing away that much bottled water).


----------



## KyNg

Guys what if the pump pressure at almost at the end of the shot let say after 30s start decreasing? Is it normal? From what i remember it always stay on 10 bar.. the problem seems to happen after i dont use the machine after 3 days and steam pressure began to be over 1 bar again.. will try again tomorrow hopefully it will work just fine..


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

KyNg said:


> Guys what if the pump pressure at almost at the end of the shot let say after 30s start decreasing? Is it normal? From what i remember it always stay on 10 bar.. the problem seems to happen after i dont use the machine after 3 days and steam pressure began to be over 1 bar again.. will try again tomorrow hopefully it will work just fine..


 Does this happen with the blind filter too? If it doesn't then you *do not* have a problem, as it can just be that the puck offers less resistance as more water start flowing through it. Absolutely normal. Just grind slightly finer if that's not what you want. 🙂

Service boiler pressure has no influence whatsoever, on that machine, on the brew pressure.


----------



## KyNg

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Does this happen with the blind filter too? If it doesn't then you *do not* have a problem, as it can just be that the puck offers less resistance as more water start flowing through it. Absolutely normal. Just grind slightly finer if that's not what you want. 🙂
> 
> Service boiler pressure has no influence whatsoever, on that machine, on the brew pressure.


 Ya will do try that tomorrow thanks mate.. need to control my caffeine intake as well 🤣


----------



## konrut123

Another Mara X owner, just set up this evening. Upgraded from a well loved Gaggia Classic but I couldn't resist!

I've been reading this thread for the past few weeks and looking forward to the new journey.


----------



## Alex89

Took delivery of my Mara X today and just wondering if anyone had the same experience. I came fully sealed and seemed like the original Lelit packaging. But when I pulled it out I could see in the plastic it was quite wet. When I got it fully out it was clear the water tank had been filled at some point. The machine had a few stains from water and possibly coffee but they were quite light.

All the protective stickers, polystyrene etc were still on so I don't suspect any heavy use but still felt a bit odd to me.

I also had a missing part which can happen but again just sits uneasy that the machine was used/returned and not properly cleaned or anything.

Is a bit of water normal or has anyone else had this experience?

Besides that it's a beautiful machine and fits perfectly in my kitchen. Now just waiting on my Niche to be delivered and I can going.


----------



## skylark

Where did you buy from?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Alex89 said:


> Took delivery of my Mara X today and just wondering if anyone had the same experience. I came fully sealed and seemed like the original Lelit packaging. But when I pulled it out I could see in the plastic it was quite wet. When I got it fully out it was clear the water tank had been filled at some point. The machine had a few stains from water and possibly coffee but they were quite light.
> 
> All the protective stickers, polystyrene etc were still on so I don't suspect any heavy use but still felt a bit odd to me.
> 
> I also had a missing part which can happen but again just sits uneasy that the machine was used/returned and not properly cleaned or anything.
> 
> Is a bit of water normal or has anyone else had this experience?
> 
> Besides that it's a beautiful machine and fits perfectly in my kitchen. Now just waiting on my Niche to be delivered and I can going.


 I don't know where you buy it from, but, some retailers, and, Lelit themselves, test the machine.

for what's worth, I bought a Lelit Elizabeth a couple months ago. They were just released and mine was from the first batch, so there was no way it was a return. Yet, the machine had water marks / had a bit of water at the bottom of the tank assembly and underneath the drip tray. I cleaned it and moved on with my life.

as for the missing part.... annoying. Speak to the retailer and they should replace it for you. If it was one of the coffee baskets, don't worry about it too much, see if you can get a discount from a VST or IMS basket instead.

enjoy the machine!


----------



## Northern_Monkey

@MediumRoastSteam - If you got it from BB I think they bench test them before shipping, or at least they did pre-lockdown with my old Mara.


----------



## Alex89

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I don't know where you buy it from, but, some retailers, and, Lelit themselves, test the machine.
> 
> for what's worth, I bought a Lelit Elizabeth a couple months ago. They were just released and mine was from the first batch, so there was no way it was a return. Yet, the machine had water marks / had a bit of water at the bottom of the tank assembly and underneath the drip tray. I cleaned it and moved on with my life.
> 
> as for the missing part.... annoying. Speak to the retailer and they should replace it for you. If it was one of the coffee baskets, don't worry about it too much, see if you can get a discount from a VST or IMS basket instead.
> 
> enjoy the machine!


 Thanks for confirming, I thought it would just have been tested. I got it from BB and @Northern_Monkey just confirmed they bench test so that's totally fine. I don't have a preference to be the first ever person to pull a shot from it and with such a weighty product testing it before hand is great to avoid having to return it.@Northern_Monkey (can't seem to delete this tag sorry)

The missing part was the cup rack for the top. I bouhght a VST basket at the same time as it seemed like an upgrade I'd make sooner rather than later.

thanks for your messages to help.

If it had just been the machine being wet I'd of brushed it off immediately as being tested and get on with it. But with the missing part too I thought I'd check it out to see if that was normal.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Northern_Monkey said:


> @MediumRoastSteam - If you got it from BB I think they bench test them before shipping, or at least they did pre-lockdown with my old Mara.


 Yep. I know that. 🙂 - Hence why I said "some retailers" 🙂


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Alex89 said:


> The missing part was the cup rack for the top.


 Definitely get back to them with regards to that. You certainly want that rack on top of the cup warming tray!

Now, saying that, most machines don't have it, so, a lovely touch from Lelit for the MaraX. 🙂 - And, what people tend to do, including myself, is to always put a rubber matt to protect the shiny panel underneath. What I do with mine is to put an anti-slip mat on it, cut to size, and a e-cloth on top. Works wonders.

I bet they forgot to put it back in when assembling back after testing. Possibly this Covid is to blame, who knows. Hopefully it gets sorted out soon.

And, just double checking: Did you triple check all your boxes to make sure it's not there? 🙂

This is what I do on my Elizabeth: MaraX looks way classier. 😉

View attachment 44246
View attachment 44247


----------



## konrut123

Just a quick question, I understand cooling flushes are not required but should you do an initial short flush before the first shot to warm things through properly? (just habit from previous machines!)

Thanks in advance


----------



## Willem

konrut123 said:


> Just a quick question, I understand cooling flushes are not required but should you do an initial short flush before the first shot to warm things through properly? (just habit from previous machines!)
> 
> Thanks in advance


 Nope, just walk up and pull a shot 🙂


----------



## Willem

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Definitely get back to them with regards to that. You certainly want that rack on top of the cup warming tray!
> 
> Now, saying that, most machines don't have it, so, a lovely touch from Lelit for the MaraX. 🙂 - And, what people tend to do, including myself, is to always put a rubber matt to protect the shiny panel underneath. What I do with mine is to put an anti-slip mat on it, cut to size, and a e-cloth on top. Works wonders.


 So do you mean protecting the grill the cups stand on? What from?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Willem said:


> So do you mean protecting the grill the cups stand on? What from?


 The MaraX already has such grill. So you are fine. But most machines don't, they just have a tray, which scratches really easily if you put portafilters, baskets, cups, platforms for espresso cups, scales, etc, etc, etc.


----------



## Willem

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The MaraX already has such grill. So you are fine. But most machines don't, they just have a tray, which scratches really easily if you put portafilters, baskets, cups, platforms for espresso cups, scales, etc, etc, etc.


 Oh ok gotcha, thx!


----------



## konrut123

Just tried my first flat whites, can't stop smiling 😁😁😁

Amazing first attempt. I've been happy with the Classic for 8 years but that was so simple and tasty. The improved milk steaming made such a difference.


----------



## siliconslave

so - slightly confused with this service boiler thing. I'm *a)* making water (RO + Baking Soda & Epsom Salts) *b)* not steaming at all. As such is it still worth draining the service boiler periodically?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

siliconslave said:


> so - slightly confused with this service boiler thing. I'm *a)* making water (RO + Baking Soda & Epsom Salts) *b)* not steaming at all. As such is it still worth draining the service boiler periodically?


 Very good question. Theoretically, you shouldn't need to drain that boiler, as you are not steaming - and I take not using the hot water tap. So, in theory, you TDS levels should be constant in there. Have you tried measuring to see what you get? Make sure you let the water cool down and then measure. Just draw a tiny bit (30ml into an espresso cup so you can measure it) from the water tap.

@Rob1 may know better.


----------



## Rob1

If not steaming at all it should be fine for a very very long time. You'll lose a tiny bit of water as steam through the anti-vac on heat up but that's it.


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Make sure you let the water cool down and then measure.


 I did notice that TDS was higher on the metre when the water was hot, and reduced when the water cooled down. I read that while the temperature doesn't change the TDS, electronic metres use conductivity to calculate TDS, and might be calibrated to room temperature (so showing higher readings when water is hot). This is good news, as it means the TDS in the service boiler might not have been as bad as I thought it was.


----------



## siliconslave

might be a case of draining it yearly then - will grab a TDS meter and see what the reading is like


----------



## Andrewczy

Bit of a blurry photo, but does everyone's stock basket come looking like this? I've only just changed over to an IMS today so can't wait to see the difference


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Andrewczy said:


> Bit of a blurry photo, but does everyone's stock basket come looking like this? I've only just changed over to an IMS today so can't wait to see the difference
> 
> View attachment 46367


 It's hard to tell what you mean because it's so blurry! What are you referring to? Scratches / brush where the holes are?


----------



## siliconslave

i'd be annoyed if it mine were so blockey as well tbh


----------



## Andrewczy

MediumRoastSteam said:


> It's hard to tell what you mean because it's so blurry! What are you referring to? Scratches / brush where the holes are?


 Yeap the scratches /brush markings mainly


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Andrewczy said:


> Yeap the scratches /brush markings mainly
> View attachment 46372


 Must be a Lelit thing. Mine (Elizabeth) is exactly the same. I don't think it affects anything. But like any stock basket... Meh. The IMS and VST are so much better built.


----------



## Stanic

here is a quick and dirty video of how I've been pulling shots lately with my setup

I am playing with the pre-infusion so that when the grouphead gauge reaches 2 bar, I flip the levette to the 45° position, turning the pump off but keeping the pressure in the group, watching the bottom of the basket in the mirror

when the puck is saturated, I turn the pump on again while closing the flow valve to get a declining pressure profile

this allows for rather fine grind setting, the Niche is calibrated and normally I pull at 10, this was at 7 and still a bit too fast, could still go a little finer


----------



## dbeckett

> 5 hours ago, Stanic said:
> 
> here is a quick and dirty video of how I've been pulling shots lately with my setup
> 
> I am playing with the pre-infusion so that when the grouphead gauge reaches 2 bar, I flip the levette to the 45° position, turning the pump off but keeping the pressure in the group, watching the bottom of the basket in the mirror
> 
> when the puck is saturated, I turn the pump on again while closing the flow valve to get a declining pressure profile
> 
> this allows for rather fine grind setting, the Niche is calibrated and normally I pull at 10, this was at 7 and still a bit too fast, could still go a little finer


 Interesting method, I haven't looked into playing with pre-infusion yet. I've seen mentioned on this thread that some trigger the pump first before grinding to get the steam boiler pressure up for streaming, do you just use the steam wand with the lower default pressure?


----------



## Stanic

dbeckett said:


> Interesting method, I haven't looked into playing with pre-infusion yet. I've seen mentioned on this thread that some trigger the pump first before grinding to get the steam boiler pressure up for streaming, do you just use the steam wand with the lower default pressure?


 Yes I purge the steam wand to get the same effect, to wake up the boiler


----------



## skylark

Anyone consider the 'feet' suitable; for an upgrade?

The machine needs better looking feet ...


----------



## Garfield

Dear forum members,

I am also a new owner of the Lelit Marax. I order it from one webshop in Italy. But after unsuccessfully trying to dial in espresso for 2 months I will probably have to return the machine to reseller. I did not want to send it before because I hoped there is some solution for the problem.









I have spent almost 2 kg of 7-8 different coffee types and roasts but could not get drinkable espresso. I took care of the all parameters in 1gram, watched on a distribution, used 17g coffee in 18g basket.

Most of the time it is agressive acid taste (sour). I contacted manufacturer and got advice to change the water, i changed to bottled water but nothing has changed.

I also changed grinder, sold Vario, bought Eureka Atom 60. Used 1:2 brew ratio, going with grinder finer and finer to balance acidity (25seconds, 30s, 35s).









I suspected that it is maybe temperature problem, I have changed temperature switch to extra hot, but that did not help. I contacted support but It is hard to tell what is the problem without seeing the machine.

I really don't know what to do anymore, i even changed pressure, tried 8,5 bars, 9, 10.

I asked other people to try and all of them said that espresso is teribble.









Maybe it is temperature problem in a way that it cannot get hot enough in the first phase of the extraction, or there is some pressure variation during the shot. I noticed sometimes shot timing changes.

With hotter temp and fresh beans I get "tiger stripping" which should be sign of good extraction but it tastes very unpleasantly sour/acidic.









Is there anybody with similar experiences?

Thank you,

Miroslav


----------



## Stanic

skylark said:


> Anyone consider the 'feet' suitable; for an upgrade?
> 
> The machine needs better looking feet ...


 I can't even see them so I am happy with them lol


----------



## Stanic

Garfield said:


> Dear forum members,
> 
> I am also a new owner of the Lelit Marax. I order it from one webshop in Italy. But after unsuccessfully trying to dial in espresso for 2 months I will probably have to return the machine to reseller. I did not want to send it before because I hoped there is some solution for the problem.
> 
> View attachment 46479
> 
> 
> I have spent almost 2 kg of 7-8 different coffee types and roasts but could not get drinkable espresso. I took care of the all parameters in 1gram, watched on a distribution, used 17g coffee in 18g basket.
> 
> Most of the time it is agressive acid taste (sour). I contacted manufacturer and got advice to change the water, i changed to bottled water but nothing has changed.
> 
> I also changed grinder, sold Vario, bought Eureka Atom 60. Used 1:2 brew ratio, going with grinder finer and finer to balance acidity (25seconds, 30s, 35s).
> 
> View attachment 46481
> 
> 
> I suspected that it is maybe temperature problem, I have changed temperature switch to extra hot, but that did not help. I contacted support but It is hard to tell what is the problem without seeing the machine.
> 
> I really don't know what to do anymore, i even changed pressure, tried 8,5 bars, 9, 10.
> 
> I asked other people to try and all of them said that espresso is teribble.
> 
> View attachment 46482
> 
> 
> Maybe it is temperature problem in a way that it cannot get hot enough in the first phase of the extraction, or there is some pressure variation during the shot. I noticed sometimes shot timing changes.
> 
> With hotter temp and fresh beans I get "tiger stripping" which should be sign of good extraction but it tastes very unpleasantly sour/acidic.
> 
> View attachment 46480
> 
> 
> Is there anybody with similar experiences?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Miroslav


 Hi Miro  
that is strange indeed, would suggest temp. issues, maybe your machine is faulty unfortunately? Also when the grinder is brand new, there can be fluctuations until the burrs get broken in (5-6 kilos of beans through with uncoated burrs), but even then you should be able to make at least few good shots.

What beans have you been trying? edit - I see a roaster name on the paper


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@Garfield - how long did you warm up the machine for beforehand? Did you let it warm up for at least 35 minutes prior to pulling a shot?


----------



## PD2020

Hi @Garfield,

I have been using my MaraX since the end of June (paired with Niche Zero grinder) and I've had about 12kg of various coffee - most of my shots have been sour. Below is what has helped me so far to get some nice shots.

I am complete newbie to the world of espresso so I suspect it's me - probably I'm doing something wrong. Not sure if you had been making espresso before MaraX, so apology if what I'm saying is already obvious to you.

What I noticed for myself is that:

(1) Coffee beans themselves are hugely important - I've had beans where it was so easy to get sweet shots (https://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/deaf-colombia-finca-la-chorrera). I think the general advice for newbies like me is to initially avoid lighter roasts, and even difficult medium roasts. Also try different roasters - it might be worth sending an email to some quality roasters and asking them for beginner-friendly beans. I did this recently and funnily I was getting mostly bitter shots until I I tried a lower roaster-recommended ratio 😉

(2) You have been exploring the ratios of 1:2 - 1:2.5. As a beginner it's easier to get a non-sour shot at higher ratios 1:3, or even higher. In fact with some beans, it is essentially impossible to get a tasty shot at 1:2.

(3) Some MaraX users find that their sweet spot for 18g dose is with shot times approximately at 35-45s. This is because the preinfusion takes around 10s. I can see that your shots have only reached 35s, so if it tastes sour - perhaps try grinding even finer.

Also take a look at this thread here (https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51571-getting-frustrated-with-sourness). It was somebody like us with MaraX who was getting only sour shots and then learned how to fix that. I sent him a private message last week and he said that nowadays he's enjoying most of the shots. He even learned how to make tasty espresso of lighter roasts. The key with his coffee (Rave Signature Blend) was to grind finer to over 40s shot times.

(4) It would be great to see a video of your workflow, if that's ok with you. Maybe there's something weird that we're both doing that is causing sourness for some beans 😉

Possibly if you learn to make non-sour shots, I can benefit from it. And the other way round. Please let us know how you're getting on


----------



## Garfield

Stanic said:


> Hi Miro
> that is strange indeed, would suggest temp. issues, maybe your machine is faulty unfortunately? Also when the grinder is brand new, there can be fluctuations until the burrs get broken in (5-6 kilos of beans through with uncoated burrs), but even then you should be able to make at least few good shots.
> 
> What beans have you been trying? edit - I see a roaster name on the paper


 Hi @Stanic, I tried lot's of different blends targeting coffee blends that are more on chocolate, nutty flavours with low acidity because I knew that I will need some time to learn how to dial in a new machine. Something like this:

https://www.hugandpunch.com/hr/proizvodi/uppercut/LbGDrpVY

Before this grinder I owned used Mahlkoenig Vario grinder - but that did not help. I sold it because I was thinking that it is causing my problems with underextraction 🙂


----------



## Garfield

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @Garfield - how long did you warm up the machine for beforehand? Did you let it warm up for at least 35 minutes prior to pulling a shot?


 Hi @MediumRoastSteam

Yes, I took care that the machine is hot all the time, sometimes it stayed on for hours. I also watched that portafilter handle is hot. I have found this great and long Marax review - where you can find which and how to target specific temperatures on machine:

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/lelit-marax-review-in-progress/


----------



## skylark

Stanic said:


> I can't even see them so I am happy with them lol


 That's the problem, the machine needs decent looking feet!


----------



## Garfield

PD2020 said:


> Hi @Garfield,
> 
> I have been using my MaraX since the end of June, I've used about 12kg of various coffee, and my shots are also mostly on the sour side. I'm using a different grinder than you - Niche Zero.
> 
> I am complete newbie to the world of espresso so I suspect it's me - probably I'm doing something wrong. Not sure if you had been making espresso before MaraX, so apology if what I'm saying is already obvious to you.
> 
> What I noticed for myself is that:
> 
> (1) Coffee beans themselves are hugely important - I've had beans where it was so easy to get sweet shots (https://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/deaf-colombia-finca-la-chorrera). I think the general advice for newbies like me is to initially avoid lighter roasts, and even difficult medium roasts. Also try different roasters - it might be worth sending an email to some quality roasters and asking them for beginner-friendly beans. I did this recently and funnily I was getting mostly bitter shots until I I tried a lower roaster-recommended ratio 😉
> 
> (2) You have been exploring the ratios of 1:2 - 1:2.5. As a beginner it's easier to get a non-sour shot at higher ratios 1:3, or even higher. In fact with some beans, it is essentially impossible to get a good shot at 1:2.
> 
> (3) Some MaraX users find that their sweet spot for 18g dose is with shot times approximately at 35-45s. This is because the preinfusion takes around 10s. I can see that your shots have only reached 35s, so if it tastes sour - perhaps try grinding even finer.
> 
> Also take a look at this thread here (https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51571-getting-frustrated-with-sourness). It was somebody like us with MaraX who was getting only sour shots and then learned how to fix that. I sent him a private message last week and he said that nowadays he's enjoying most of the shots. He even learned how to make tasty espresso of lighter roasts. The key with his coffee (Rave Signature Blend) was to grind finer to over 40s shot times.
> 
> (4) It would be great to see a video of your workflow, if that's ok with you. Maybe there's something weird that we're both doing that is causing sourness for some beans 😉
> 
> Possibly if you learn to make non-sour shots, I can benefit from it. And the other way round. Please let us know how you're getting on


 Hi @PD2020,

I can understand you very well, having great machine, grinder and coffee and burning it, loosing time and money🙃

I consider myself also a newbie, I used Gaggia Classic for some time, then for some time did not brewed espresso, but always wanted to get back in the game- with some better grinder and machine. Now when I finally bought it, I have problem to configure it. But your post has some interesting findings about the problem and I will definitely try to experiment with it.

Thank you for this interesting suggestions, I will definitely read the links you have sent and inform you about my solutions.

Yes, your findings are true. It correlates with data from this picture and video that is on La Marzocco Home youtube channel, it has some nice and clear explanations how to dial in espresso in relation to roast level.









I will try to find the video of me brewing espresso and describing the problem - the one that I also sent to Lelit and upload it somewhere so that you can see my process.


----------



## Stanic

Garfield said:


> Before this grinder I owned used Mahlkoenig Vario grinder - but that did not help. I sold it because I was thinking that it is causing my problems with underextraction 🙂


 the grinder you have now is certainly capable..unless the burrs are misaligned

check out this link, I did the marker test (from point 11.) when I had the Eureka Mignon few years ago and it was slightly misaligned, after shimming the coffee was much better, but it is a tedious process

and I would definitely try grinding finer, the machine can handle it well


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Garfield said:


> Hi @MediumRoastSteam
> 
> Yes, I took care that the machine is hot all the time, sometimes it stayed on for hours. I also watched that portafilter handle is hot. I have found this great and long Marax review - where you can find which and how to target specific temperatures on machine:
> 
> https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/lelit-marax-review-in-progress/


 The author of the review has gone to this forum in case you may want to ask him questions: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vesuvius

Good luck.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Also @Garfield (Miroslav), I was just wondering...

Is the machine stand-by feature (auto-switch off) turned OFF? Best to turn it off at least until you resolve this.

- You said you even tried extra hot. Is the machine in Brew priority or Steam priority? Maybe worthwhile switching the machine to steam priority to see if it improves things. At least it will be a starting point to rule out other things. If you do that, check the pressure. it should be around or above 1 bar (if not more, depending on the setting you have (low-med-high). Do touch the group VERY briefly after heating, it should be VERY HOT. Pull some water through: it should be flash boiling if in steam priority. Flush a bit, lock and pull. How does it taste?

If the above is true, then the group is hot.

If you think it's still sour (is it sour or bitter?) Sour is usually due to water being too cold, bitter water being too hot.

I don't know which coffee you are using. But, in my experience, if the coffee is too fresh, it can taste grassy and sour. At this point, buy a tin of Illy (beans) or even Lavazza (Qualita Rossa) - Not my thing, but at least it's some sort of "consistent" roast and blend. See how it goes. Report back.


----------



## Garfield

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Also @Garfield (Miroslav), I was just wondering...
> 
> Is the machine stand-by feature (auto-switch off) turned OFF? Best to turn it off at least until you resolve this.
> 
> - You said you even tried extra hot. Is the machine in Brew priority or Steam priority? Maybe worthwhile switching the machine to steam priority to see if it improves things. At least it will be a starting point to rule out other things. If you do that, check the pressure. it should be around or above 1 bar (if not more, depending on the setting you have (low-med-high). Do touch the group VERY briefly after heating, it should be VERY HOT. Pull some water through: it should be flash boiling if in steam priority. Flush a bit, lock and pull. How does it taste?
> 
> If the above is true, then the group is hot.
> 
> If you think it's still sour (is it sour or bitter?) Sour is usually due to water being too cold, bitter water being too hot.
> 
> I don't know which coffee you are using. But, in my experience, if the coffee is too fresh, it can taste grassy and sour. At this point, buy a tin of Illy (beans) or even Lavazza (Qualita Rossa) - Not my thing, but at least it's some sort of "consistent" roast and blend. See how it goes. Report back.


 Hi @MediumRoastSteam

thanks a lot for your advices, after I try I will report back.

I turned off stand-by already, so that I eliminate that machine is not preheated enough. I use it most of the time in Brew priority mode. I tried once in Steam priority mode, with classic cooling flushes, but without success. I will try again with some brew ratio changes, longer shot time like @PD2020 suggested (40-45seconds) and with your advices for checking the group and steam pressure.

Currently I use Columbia Truilo which is roasted 10 days ago, now is probably the best time to use it. There is one well known place in Zagreb (Eliscaffe) where you can drink and buy great coffee - because they have a roastery inside caffe. There are 2 coffees on menu, one with more chocolate low brightness espresso (Columbia) and one with fruity flavors (Kenya). I order it by post, from them, because I live in another town.


----------



## Garfield

Stanic said:


> the grinder you have now is certainly capable..unless the burrs are misaligned
> 
> check out this link, I did the marker test (from point 11.) when I had the Eureka Mignon few years ago and it was slightly misaligned, after shimming the coffee was much better, but it is a tedious process
> 
> and I would definitely try grinding finer, the machine can handle it well


 Thanks @Stanic,

You won't believe but I also tried this align checking on Vario with flomaster. But who knows maybe some other variable was not correct at the time. I will try to check on the Atom also.

First, I will try to grind finer and slow the timing to 35, 40seconds with high temperature and higher brew ratio. After that we will see, I will inform you.


----------



## Stanic

Garfield said:


> Thanks @Stanic,
> 
> You won't believe but I also tried this align checking on Vario with flomaster. But who knows maybe some other variable was not correct at the time. I will try to check on the Atom also.
> 
> First, I will try to grind finer and slow the timing to 35, 40seconds with high temperature and higher brew ratio. After that we will see, I will inform you.


 Surely try that first.

Back then I had Rancilio Silvia with mecoffe PID and Eureka Mignon. After doing the burr alignment, the shots have become more sweet in taste and the extractions visually much more even, looking at the bottom of the basket.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Garfield said:


> Hi @MediumRoastSteam
> 
> thanks a lot for your advices, after I try I will report back.
> 
> I turned off stand-by already, so that I eliminate that machine is not preheated enough. I use it most of the time in Brew priority mode. I tried once in Steam priority mode, with classic cooling flushes, but without success. I will try again with some brew ratio changes, longer shot time like @PD2020 suggested (40-45seconds) and with your advices for checking the group and steam pressure.
> 
> Currently I use Columbia Truilo which is roasted 10 days ago, now is probably the best time to use it. There is one well known place in Zagreb (Eliscaffe) where you can drink and buy great coffee - because they have a roastery inside caffe. There are 2 coffees on menu, one with more chocolate low brightness espresso (Columbia) and one with fruity flavors (Kenya). I order it by post, from them, because I live in another town.
> 
> View attachment 46508


 And those are coffees you are familiar with and tried before on other machines?


----------



## Garfield

MediumRoastSteam said:


> And those are coffees you are familiar with and tried before on other machines?


 Unfortunately not, because I live in the smaller town, where you cannot find some kind of speciality caffes and there aren't any roasters around. And because of this situation in the world we rarely go to business trip to Zagreb so I buy a coffee over the internet.


----------



## Stanic

I opened the machine yesterday for inspection, no leaks I can see, also I opened the OPV a bit more so I am at 8,5 with the blind basket again 😛


----------



## Garfield

Stanic said:


> Surely try that first.
> 
> Back then I had Rancilio Silvia with mecoffe PID and Eureka Mignon. After doing the burr alignment, the shots have become more sweet in taste and the extractions visually much more even, looking at the bottom of the basket.


 Hi @Stanic

I tried flomaster test, it looks like it is aligned and ok. I used this situation to clean the grinder 🙂


----------



## Stanic

Looks really good 👍


----------



## Garfield

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Also @Garfield (Miroslav), I was just wondering...
> 
> Is the machine stand-by feature (auto-switch off) turned OFF? Best to turn it off at least until you resolve this.
> 
> - You said you even tried extra hot. Is the machine in Brew priority or Steam priority? Maybe worthwhile switching the machine to steam priority to see if it improves things. At least it will be a starting point to rule out other things. If you do that, check the pressure. it should be around or above 1 bar (if not more, depending on the setting you have (low-med-high). Do touch the group VERY briefly after heating, it should be VERY HOT. Pull some water through: it should be flash boiling if in steam priority. Flush a bit, lock and pull. How does it taste?
> 
> If the above is true, then the group is hot.
> 
> If you think it's still sour (is it sour or bitter?) Sour is usually due to water being too cold, bitter water being too hot.
> 
> I don't know which coffee you are using. But, in my experience, if the coffee is too fresh, it can taste grassy and sour. At this point, buy a tin of Illy (beans) or even Lavazza (Qualita Rossa) - Not my thing, but at least it's some sort of "consistent" roast and blend. See how it goes. Report back.


 Hi @MediumRoastSteam and @PD2020

I changed mode to Steam priority and it looks like it is very hot. You can see from a flush on the video.

After a flush I made few 1:3 ratio espresso, 17g in 50out im 45seconds. First drop around 15seconds and it is better now, not agressively sour. But it still has some sourness in background. Overall is better - but far from something that we can even say that it is ok. The question is what to do now? Going finer it will chock the machine, I am on the 3.5 settings and when i go to 3 it chocks. Maybe lowering a dose and then going finer.

View attachment 20201009_212420_2.mp4


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Garfield said:


> Hi @MediumRoastSteam and @PD2020
> 
> I changed mode to Steam priority and it looks like it is very hot. You can see from a flush on the video.
> 
> After a flush I made few 1:3 ratio espresso, 17g in 50out im 45seconds. First drop around 15seconds and it is better now, not agressively sour. But it still has some sourness in background. Overall is better - but far from something that we can even say that it is ok. The question is what to do now? Going finer it will chock the machine, I am on the 3.5 settings and when i go to 3 it chocks. Maybe lowering a dose and then going finer.
> 
> View attachment 46533


 What pressure are you reading in the dial during a brew? Is it around 9 or 10?

Now, it seems to me, with the greatest of respects, that the issue might be your coffee rather than your machine. You went from cold to super hot, and you are still detecting sourness. 
you can follow @Stanic 's advice of grinding finer, but try a darker roast from a reputable roaster. If you can get Illy or Lavazza somehow, try that and report back please. At least you know it's not related to beans roasting development, etc, etc.


----------



## Stanic

Garfield said:


> The question is what to do now? Going finer it will chock the machine, I am on the 3.5 settings and when i go to 3 it chocks.


 In that case I'd explore the range between 3 and 3.5, if possible

What I learned with some flat burr grinders is that the adjustment needed to get to the sweet spot was miniscule


----------



## Garfield

MediumRoastSteam said:


> What pressure are you reading in the dial during a brew? Is it around 9 or 10?
> 
> Now, it seems to me, with the greatest of respects, that the issue might be your coffee rather than your machine. You went from cold to super hot, and you are still detecting sourness.
> you can follow @Stanic 's advice of grinding finer, but try a darker roast from a reputable roaster. If you can get Illy or Lavazza somehow, try that and report back please. At least you know it's not related to beans roasting development, etc, etc.


 I don't have enough Columbia, tomorrow I will open bag of Kenyan coffee and will try to dial in. I saw that machine starts at 10 bars and goes to 9.8 bars during a brew.

I will try to follow this tutorial:






But will add 10seconds more to a brew time.

I can also try to buy Illy beans in the can, it is avaliable in a supermarket near me. They are fresh for few days because of technology used in packaging beans.

Does all other owners of MaraX go with 40+ seconds shots?


----------



## Stanic

the rule of thumb I used to apply is to try to get 1 gram per 1 second of output overall, from starting of the pump (so for those 50g the shot would last 50 seconds), then adjust by taste

this is of course very general and depends on beans, roast level, temperature...but can give you a starting point, and as you can see they recommend different time for Kenyan - but then what specific Kenyan beans, what is the roast level??

I don't really go by time these days, looking more at getting that thin "mouse tail" flow and cutting the shot a bit shorter, so I go for 20g output of nice, slow flow thick espresso from a 15g input


----------



## robti

Can I ask about cleaning the boiler out, I clean the shower screen, lube the lever, clean the water tank and sterilise, but what do I need to do with the boiler, do I need to descale or anything, I make 4 flat whites daily and use filtered water, sorry if it's been covered before


----------



## Stanic

robti said:


> Can I ask about cleaning the boiler out, I clean the shower screen, lube the lever, clean the water tank and sterilise, but what do I need to do with the boiler, do I need to descale or anything, I make 4 flat whites daily and use filtered water, sorry if it's been covered before


 As long as the water is good, you won't need to descale really, perhaps a light descale once every 2 years or so


----------



## robti

Stanic said:


> As long as the water is good, you won't need to descale really, perhaps a light descale once every 2 years or so


 Thanks for the helpful reply


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

robti said:


> Can I ask about cleaning the boiler out, I clean the shower screen, lube the lever, clean the water tank and sterilise, but what do I need to do with the boiler, do I need to descale or anything, I make 4 flat whites daily and use filtered water, sorry if it's been covered before


 If the water has particles which precipitate, like calcium, eventually the total TDS will build up and the water inside the boiler will saturate and scale.

you should refresh the service boiler water by either taking a cup (make an americano every week) or just cycle the boiler every month or to, depending on what water you use,


----------



## robti

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If the water has particles which precipitate, like calcium, eventually the total TDS will build up and the water inside the boiler will saturate and scale.
> 
> you should refresh the service boiler water by either taking a cup (make an americano every week) or just cycle the boiler every month or to, depending on what water you use,


 Water in my area is very soft and it then goes into filter for fridge water and I use this and also have the filter in the maraX water tank, so if I just add a boiler empty to my monthly routine it should be okay ?


----------



## Garfield

Stanic said:


> the rule of thumb I used to apply is to try to get 1 gram per 1 second of output overall, from starting of the pump (so for those 50g the shot would last 50 seconds), then adjust by taste
> 
> this is of course very general and depends on beans, roast level, temperature...but can give you a starting point, and as you can see they recommend different time for Kenyan - but then what specific Kenyan beans, what is the roast level??
> 
> I don't really go by time these days, looking more at getting that thin "mouse tail" flow and cutting the shot a bit shorter, so I go for 20g output of nice, slow flow thick espresso from a 15g input


 Maybe it is something light to medium. I compared it by colour with Columbia and it looks lighter. Unfortunately roaster does not provide this info on the coffee bag.


----------



## Stanic

robti said:


> Water in my area is very soft and it then goes into filter for fridge water and I use this and also have the filter in the maraX water tank, so if I just add a boiler empty to my monthly routine it should be okay ?


 The scale will first start to form on the heating elements and reduce their efficiency, so I would still advise to do the light descaling (~2% citric acid solution) as prevention


----------



## Garfield

Garfield said:


> Maybe it is something light to medium. I compared it by colour with Columbia and it looks lighter. Unfortunately roaster does not provide this info on the coffee bag.


 Today I tried with 1:2.5 ratio and long time and high temp. All espressos were terrible. All sour, could not get any that is bitter. The best one was with 35seconds.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Garfield said:


> Today I tried with 1:2.5 ratio and long time and high temp. All espressos were terrible. All sour, could not get any that is bitter. The best one was with 35seconds.
> 
> View attachment 46582


 *I'm telling you... Change your coffee beans!!!!*

*Edit: *Sorry for being abrupt. But you've tried everything. Whether the machine is steaming hot or stone cold you are still saying it's sour!

You also said above:



> Maybe it is something light to medium. I compared it by colour with Columbia and it looks lighter. Unfortunately roaster does not provide this info on the coffee bag.


 Maybe those beans are not to your taste. Get something more box standard, that's why I said Illy or Lavazza. At least you know what you are going to get it. And see if it's still sour.

Failing that, if at all possible, visit your retailer with your coffee machine and try some shots side by side on their machine, with YOUR beans. You'll then be able to isolate whether it's the machine or your beans. If possible, take the grinder with you too.


----------



## Stanic

you are getting watery shot at 3.3 grinder setting and choking the machine at 3...sounds weird


----------



## Garfield

Stanic said:


> you are getting watery shot at 3.3 grinder setting and choking the machine at 3...sounds weird


 It was chocked with beans before this one I currently try.


----------



## Garfield

MediumRoastSteam said:


> *I'm telling you... Change your coffee beans!!!!*
> 
> *Edit: *Sorry for being abrupt. But you've tried everything. Whether the machine is steaming hot or stone cold you are still saying it's sour!
> 
> You also said above:
> 
> Maybe those beans are not to your taste. Get something more box standard, that's why I said Illy or Lavazza. At least you know what you are going to get it. And see if it's still sour.
> 
> Failing that, if at all possible, visit your retailer with your coffee machine and try some shots side by side on their machine, with YOUR beans. You'll then be able to isolate whether it's the machine or your beans. If possible, take the grinder with you too.


 No problem. I am going to find Lavazza and Illy tomorrow and try and if it doesn't work I have to return the machine, what else I can.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Garfield said:


> No problem. I am going to find Lavazza and Illy tomorrow and try and if it doesn't work I have to return the machine, what else I can.


 Is the retailer near you? Could you go there in person and try your coffee on their equipment?


----------



## PD2020

Agreed. Lately I've wasted 1kg of Rave Decaf beans and I was getting only sour even at 1:5 (18g in, 80g out).

Changed the beans to more classic chocolatey profile and finally could get a drinkable shot.

@Garfield I think you will have more success with classic espresso beans (darker colour) rather than Kenyans. African coffees are very often on the acidic end, so they are more difficult for newbies (like me).@MediumRoastSteam's idea to try Illy or Lavazza sounds great and I hope you will experience all kinds of shots (sour, bitter, balanced) with them  Fingers crossed!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

PD2020 said:


> Agreed. Lately I've wasted 1kg of Rave Decaf beans and I was getting only sour even at 1:5 (18g in, 80g out).
> 
> Changed the beans to more classic chocolatey profile and finally could get a drinkable shot.
> 
> @Garfield I think you will have more success with classic espresso beans (darker colour) rather than Kenyans. African coffees are very often on the acidic end, so they are more difficult for newbies (like me).@MediumRoastSteam's idea to try Illy or Lavazza sounds great and I hope you will experience all kinds of shots (sour, bitter, balanced) with them  Fingers crossed!


 Well... That's the thing.... You are going to experience... Mehness. just... Meh. Not great, not terrible. Just... "Meh, why bother kind of thing". 🙂

I have to say the same with the Rave Decaf... And I tried on my Profitec 700 back in the day. Very difficult to extract, very sour. One tip the roaster at Rave told me at the last Lever Day, was that Decaf Beans look darker than they actually are if compared to caffeinated beans. Don't ask me why. So, it might be that a much higher temperature and a finer grind are required for those. I just gave up on Decaf all together since then.... Like... 3 years ago? 🙂


----------



## Garfield

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Is the retailer near you? Could you go there in person and try your coffee on their equipment?


 If you mean coffee retailer, unfortunately he is 300km away, that is the problem. And machine retailer is in another country.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Garfield said:


> If you mean coffee retailer, unfortunately he is 300km away, that is the problem. And machine retailer is in another country.


  - that's annoying. Have you tried taking your coffee to someone you know with an espresso machine, and check how it tastes?


----------



## Garfield

MediumRoastSteam said:


> - that's annoying. Have you tried taking your coffee to someone you know with an espresso machine, and check how it tastes?


 Yes, it is. Nobody around that I know.


----------



## Andrewczy

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If the water has particles which precipitate, like calcium, eventually the total TDS will build up and the water inside the boiler will saturate and scale.
> 
> you should refresh the service boiler water by either taking a cup (make an americano every week) or just cycle the boiler every month or to, depending on what water you use,


 Did not know about this. Gonna run water out the hot water tap abit more regularly now


----------



## skylark

Anyone using a Lelit leveller tool?

I need to know how deep to set it, do you just set it as deep as it'll go and then not tamp or do you set it inbetween and tamp, there's no instruction to be found (by me, that is!)


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> Anyone using a Lelit leveller tool?
> 
> I need to know how deep to set it, do you just set it as deep as it'll go and then not tamp or do you set it inbetween and tamp, there's no instruction to be found (by me, that is!)


 You want it to level it, not to tamp. Set it to about 4mm deep and then tamp with a tamper.


----------



## Andrewczy

How much does the temperature fluctuate when the machine is left on for few hours? I see that the steam pressure varies from. 75 to 2 bars when left idle for some time. Do I wait till it's 0.75 bars before brewing?


----------



## Doram

Andrewczy said:


> How much does the temperature fluctuate when the machine is left on for few hours? I see that the steam pressure varies from. 75 to 2 bars when left idle for some time. Do I wait till it's 0.75 bars before brewing?


 If the machine is working correctly, the temperature fluctuation should not exceed 2 degrees Celsius for each of the three temperature bands. The machine cleverly achieves this by measuring the temp of the water coming out of the group with a dedicated PID and turning the heating element on and off accordingly. DaveC and other reviews tested this and showed that the machine manages this nicely, so unless there is something wrong with your machine, it should keep the group in the correct set temperature for brewing (warm, hot and very hot, depending on how you set the brew temp switch behind the drip tray).

While in brew temp priority, the steam pressure will fluctuate as the machine manages a steady brew temperature. When you turn the machine on, the set temperature will be higher (to speed up heating), and this is why steam pressure will be higher (the 2 bars you see). It will then settle down lower and will keep the lower pressure until you brew. As soon as you lift the lever or purge water or steam, the boiler will kick in to get the machine up to steam pressure and temperature. you then have a few minutes to brew a few shots before the group gets too hot for coffee (the mass of the E61 takes care of that). A minute or two after the heating element kicks in, the machine has enough pressure for steaming. Once the machine gets too hot for brewing (about 5 minutes or a bit more after the heating kicks in), you will need to let it settle again for about 15 minutes to cool down to brew temp again.

This video (and a few others) on Lelit Insider shows what happens with temperature and pressure when the machine heats up:


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> The machine cleverly achieves this by measuring the temp of the water coming out of the group


 The machine measures the temperature of the water inside the syphon loop, which eventually will end up in the group (that's how the group is heated up), but not necessarily *out *of the group. 🙂

It will raise and decrease pressure to keep the temperature stable, and, I believe it will dump the water now and again when it gets way too hot. Very clever indeed. In terms of bang for the buck, you can't beat it.


----------



## skylark

Mine hops between .75 and around 1.25 bar most of the day. I 'assume' it's up to temperature whenever it needs to be used. Is anyone using a digital thermometer in the grouphead at all? I've seen manometers when using the flow control kit but no digi stuff. Wondering just how near to brew temp the water actually is at any given time. I just don't seem to get a decent shot, maybe the water temp?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> Mine hops between .75 and around 1.25 bar most of the day. I 'assume' it's up to temperature whenever it needs to be used. Is anyone using a digital thermometer in the grouphead at all? I've seen manometers when using the flow control kit but no digi stuff. Wondering just how near to brew temp the water actually is at any given time. I just don't seem to get a decent shot, maybe the water temp?


 I'm witness! I've seen it and the temperature is bang on as per DavecUK's review. @Jason11 ^^


----------



## Jason11

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I'm witness! I've seen it and the temperature is bang on as per DavecUK's review. @Jason11 ^^


99% of the time the temperature on mine works flawlessly but it occasionally has a funny 5 minutes. Sometimes I can get 95-96oC at the grouphead thermometer instead of the usual 93-94oC but it's probably only happened 4 or 5 times now and I've had my machine nearly 4 months now and pull 3-4 shots a day. Also the odd time I can't seem to kick the boiler pressure up using the steam wand or raising the lever but this has happened only 2-3 times now. It's not a dual boiler and all things considered I'm very happy with it and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to anyone.


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The machine measures the temperature of the water inside the syphon loop, which eventually will end up in the group (that's how the group is heated up), but not necessarily *out *of the group


 This is what I meant, thank you . I misspoke, as politicians often say. which brings me to an off-topic here: came to edit my post, but the option is gone less than 3 hours after posting - strange this, as recently I had an edit option after 7 hours... oh well.

Back to topic: My machine seems to do its thing flawlessly. I have the socket turn off one hour after I turn it on. 24 minutes after it starts (maybe even less) - it has completed the quick-heating and settling down cycle, pressure is low and and temp perfect. I don't bother messing kicking the boiler because I find that making a shot and rinsing the portafilter gives me perfect pause for pressure to steam (if I am making a milk drink). Mara X is designed to be simple and straight forward, and for my usage it does just that: Turn on to heat, pull a shot whenever, steam, turn off (or leave on if you want). No cooling flushes, temp surfing or other nonsense is needed. It might not work perfectly for a big gang, and of course not for a busy office or coffeeshop, but for my single-user needs it seems perfect.


----------



## PD2020

Stanic said:


> the rule of thumb I used to apply is to try to get 1 gram per 1 second of output overall, from starting of the pump (so for those 50g the shot would last 50 seconds), then adjust by taste
> 
> this is of course very general and depends on beans, roast level, temperature...but can give you a starting point


 Hi @Stanic. Pardon my newbie question, just trying to understand the idea. If 18g->36g shot runs in approximately 36s, and 18g->51g shot runs in approximately 51s, wouldn't the longer shot give away all its goodness by the 36s mark? Unless you adjust coarser, but then wouldn't it run faster than 51s?


----------



## Jason11

PD2020 said:


> Hi @Stanic. Pardon my newbie question, just trying to understand the idea. If 18g->36g shot runs in approximately 36s, and 18g->51g shot runs in approximately 51s, wouldn't the longer shot give away all its goodness by the 36s mark? Unless you adjust coarser, but then wouldn't it run faster than 51s?


The shot volume speeds up as it pours so it wouldn't be at 36g at 36 seconds if on a 51g/seconds shot it would be a lot less yield at the 36 second point.


----------



## Garfield

MediumRoastSteam said:


> *I'm telling you... Change your coffee beans!!!!*
> 
> *Edit: *Sorry for being abrupt. But you've tried everything. Whether the machine is steaming hot or stone cold you are still saying it's sour!
> 
> You also said above:
> 
> Maybe those beans are not to your taste. Get something more box standard, that's why I said Illy or Lavazza. At least you know what you are going to get it. And see if it's still sour.
> 
> Failing that, if at all possible, visit your retailer with your coffee machine and try some shots side by side on their machine, with YOUR beans. You'll then be able to isolate whether it's the machine or your beans. If possible, take the grinder with you too.


 Hi @MediumRoastSteam you were right, when I tried Illy beans it was not sour. Even at temp. position 1 and 0.









Probably beans I used before were underdeveloped by roasting process or I don't have enough experience to extract it correctly. I must say that even with this Illy beans I did not get some ok shots, probably they were roasted on the darker side and were little unpleasantly bitter - even with shorter time around 30seconds. Probably because of aging time. The question is now which beans to buy 🙂

Does anybody can recommend some list of good roasters that ship inside EU?

Thanks.


----------



## Doram

Garfield said:


> I must say that even with this Illy beans I did not get some ok shots, probably they were roasted on the darker side and were little unpleasantly bitter


 In theory, bitter taste can be a sign of over-extraction (and darker roasts should be easier to extract, so maybe this is what you are getting?).

To reduce extraction you can 1) lower the temperature (position 0 on the brew temp switch), 2) grind coarser, and 3) decrease contact time (so a shorter brew-ratio, like 1:1.5 or anything between a 1:1 ristretto to 1:2 normale). If you don't like the beans anyway - you won't mind too much wasting them, and if you get a nice shot - it will be a bonus! 🙂 Good luck with it!


----------



## Bigbrownbear

And Illy has it by a whisker! Got to hand it to them they understand the one thing we all strive for. Consistency in the making of espresso! Now do I dump the Silvia after 7 years and buy this HX box Mara X?? I'm just getting tired of temp surfing... too many variables with different beans... ground by the specialita


----------



## steffanjtaylor

On the slightly lighter side, I've had some excellent results with Extract's Uncle Funka beans using the MaraX- sweet and fruity; 18g, 36g, 43s, Niche grind setting 18.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Garfield said:


> Hi @MediumRoastSteam you were right, when I tried Illy beans it was not sour. Even at temp. position 1 and 0.
> 
> View attachment 46663
> 
> 
> Probably beans I used before were underdeveloped by roasting process or I don't have enough experience to extract it correctly. I must say that even with this Illy beans I did not get some ok shots, probably they were roasted on the darker side and were little unpleasantly bitter - even with shorter time around 30seconds. Probably because of aging time. The question is now which beans to buy 🙂
> 
> Does anybody can recommend some list of good roasters that ship inside EU?
> 
> Thanks.


 Great news Miroslav!!!!! Yes - there are plenty of roasts inside the EU and also in the UK which will ship abroad.

I know UK ones you can start:

- https://ravecoffee.co.uk
- https://www.hasbean.co.uk
- https://www.theroastery.co.uk

There are plenty more, and there's a thread in this forum. Good luck!


----------



## Alex89

My niche and coffee from rave all arrived today so I've been able to pull some shots. I'm trying to dial in my espresso but having a bit of an issue. I've got a scale and timer aiming for 18g in to 32g out in around 30s. This seems to be the standard starting point then I'll adjust for my personal taste from there. I'm getting extraction in 20 seconds so I need to go finer on the Niche (setting 20 just now).

The issue is occuring when I shut off the machine. Theres a bit of a pressure build up and quite a bit of water is pushed out. It completely covers my scale and some ends up in my cup throwing my weight and everything off.

i had a look at Dave's video and review and it seems there is a wee bit of water pushed out but nothing similar to what I'm getting. Am I doing something wrong? or maybe I just have to deal with it and adjust the position of my scale. It is quite big. No water is spraying over the machine.

ive also got a very soggy puck so could be related?


----------



## PD2020

Hi @Alex89,

18 in, 32g, 20s - 20s does indeed sound very short for this brew ratio. Some MaraX users have reported tasty shots of 30s, 35s, 40s and even longer (I mean the total lever on -> lever off time). It depends on the beans, roast, brew ratio, etc. It's commonly advised to focus on and adjust by taste (in your case it's likely that the 20s shot tastes sour, doesn't it? If so, grinding finer sounds sensible)

Not sure about the water release. Do you mean you get it when you stop your shot, or when you turn your machine off? It's normal that quite a bit of water is released from the E61 grouphead into the tray when you stop the shot. You might want to move your scale out of the way  However if you're talking about turning your machine off, then I can't think of anything like that with my MaraX. Mind you every now and then MaraX will discard some water into your drip tray (I understand it serves thermal stability and prevents thermosyphon stalls), the amount of water is normally miniscule and all that happens under the grid on which you can place your scales - I assume you're not referring to that, are you?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Alex89 said:


> My niche and coffee from rave all arrived today so I've been able to pull some shots. I'm trying to dial in my espresso but having a bit of an issue. I've got a scale and timer aiming for 18g in to 32g out in around 30s. This seems to be the standard starting point then I'll adjust for my personal taste from there. I'm getting extraction in 20 seconds so I need to go finer on the Niche (setting 20 just now).
> 
> The issue is occuring when I shut off the machine. Theres a bit of a pressure build up and quite a bit of water is pushed out. It completely covers my scale and some ends up in my cup throwing my weight and everything off.
> 
> i had a look at Dave's video and review and it seems there is a wee bit of water pushed out but nothing similar to what I'm getting. Am I doing something wrong? or maybe I just have to deal with it and adjust the position of my scale. It is quite big. No water is spraying over the machine.
> 
> ive also got a very soggy puck so could be related?


 Are you talking about the exhaust valve of the E61? I.e.: group and coffee is at 9 bar. When you lower the lever all the way down, a valve opens at the button and the water at 9bar pressure goes to atmospheric pressure in a split second.

This is how it works.

If you are unsure, please video it so we can know for sure. Thanks!


----------



## Alex89

@PD2020 @MediumRoastSteam

Yes it's the exhaust of the e61 that was causing my water issue. I've just pulled my final shot of the night and realised the edge of my scale was a bit too close. What an idiot! So the water release was hitting the scale and spraying everywhere. Thanks for your help but it was just my own stupidity 😂

Still not there on the shots. The last of tonight was 25s for 32g. So finer I go tomorrow. Sipping this many shots at 7pm isn't great for my sleep so I'll call it a night.

Very fun so far dialing this in. Glad it's taking me this long so I can see what the step by step grind settings are like on taste.


----------



## Stanic

PD2020 said:


> Hi @Stanic. Pardon my newbie question, just trying to understand the idea. If 18g->36g shot runs in approximately 36s, and 18g->51g shot runs in approximately 51s, wouldn't the longer shot give away all its goodness by the 36s mark? Unless you adjust coarser, but then wouldn't it run faster than 51s?


 Sorry, it is unclear as I wrote it in that post.

The rule applies to the 1:2 ratio, so you want to set the grinder so that you get for example 18g - > 36g in 36 seconds. That would be a starting point.

The 51ish grams output in 51 seconds would ask for a 25ish grams input (there's a 25g vst basket on the market).

What I do is that first I dial in the grinder for the above mentioned rule and then when making espresso, I cut the shot before I reach the 1:2 ratio. So, it is not a real ristretto but a shortened shot. From 15g input I want to get around 20g, from 18g I usually end the pump at around 25g output.

You can make a 51grams shot using the grinder settings described above (and you no longer look at time after 36 seconds just cut it by weight), but as you correctly pointed out, there will be unwanted stuff in the cup by that point. Basically, you can call it over extraction.


----------



## PD2020

@Alex89, glad to hear it's all good  What's your first coffee to play with on MaraX (which Rave is it)? I'm trying to learn how to dial in on MaraX and Niche, so I'm curious what your sweet spot is going to be  Fingers crossed!


----------



## Willem

Jason11 said:


> 99% of the time the temperature on mine works flawlessly but it occasionally has a funny 5 minutes. Sometimes I can get 95-96oC at the grouphead thermometer instead of the usual 93-94oC but it's probably only happened 4 or 5 times now and I've had my machine nearly 4 months now and pull 3-4 shots a day. Also the odd time I can't seem to kick the boiler pressure up using the steam wand or raising the lever but this has happened only 2-3 times now. It's not a dual boiler and all things considered I'm very happy with it and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to anyone.


 This is exactly my experience with the machine to date. Would also recommend it to anyone.


----------



## Willem

Does anyone here use a calibrated tamper with the MaraX and if so, which one? Trying to eliminate as many variables as possible for ease of use...!


----------



## Alex89

PD2020 said:


> @Alex89, glad to hear it's all good  What's your first coffee to play with on MaraX (which Rave is it)? I'm trying to learn how to dial in on MaraX and Niche, so I'm curious what your sweet spot is going to be  Fingers crossed!


 I went with the signature blend at first. I heard it a little forgiving and it was a bit cheaper so it felt a good one to kick off with, considering how much I'll go through dialing in.

Once I get it to my taste I'll let you know the Niche setting I used so if you get the coffee you'll have a rough starting point.


----------



## PD2020

Alex89 said:


> I went with the signature blend at first. I heard it a little forgiving and it was a bit cheaper so it felt a good one to kick off with, considering how much I'll go through dialing in.
> 
> Once I get it to my taste I'll let you know the Niche setting I used so if you get the coffee you'll have a rough starting point.


 Nice one! Of course how it tastes for you is all that matters, but you might find this thread from May an interesting read. It was created by a new MaraX user trying to dial in Rave Signature Blend - https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51571-getting-frustrated-with-sourness.

I'm resting Rave Chatswood for this weekend. Can't wait 😉


----------



## Garfield

PD2020 said:


> Nice one! Of course how it tastes for you is all that matters, but you might find this thread from May an interesting read. It was created by a new MaraX user trying to dial in Rave Signature Blend - https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51571-getting-frustrated-with-sourness.
> 
> I'm resting Rave Chatswood for this weekend. Can't wait 😉


 Hi @PD2020,

what problems/tastes you had during extractions and what happend when you tried longer time for extractions, like other members suggested?


----------



## PD2020

Garfield said:


> Hi @PD2020,
> 
> what problems/tastes you had during extractions and what happend when you tried longer time for extractions, like other members suggested?


 It's just with some beans I've been getting only sour (https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/54827-any-londoners-willing-to-test-their-grinder-on-my-marax/), even at 18g in, 80g out (e.g. Rave Decaf). With some other beans it's much easier to get a decent shot.

My main problem has been that I had never had espresso in my life before buying MaraX. That's proper newbie! 😉 Being stuck at home nowaday I was simply missing my lattes... So the first couple of months with MaraX I only made lattes which taste fine even if the shot is a little sour 😉 But one day I put my explorer hat on and victoriously went to a nice local coffee shop to compare my home espresso to theirs... Oh boy, it was then that I realised my shots are bloody sour 😉 That's where my panic started... Ah, ignorance is bliss 😉

I've (re)discovered the longer times reported by MaraX users only recently. I'm pretty sure most of my shots in the past have been too fast, and consequently - sour.

I think now I'm making some progress, one step at a time, mainly due to the help of the coffee people here on the forum. It was helpful to know that even experienced forum members like @MediumRoastSteamhave found it challenging to extract Rave Decaf. It's just some beans are more tricky than others. My plan for now is to focus on newbie-friendly beans in a newbie-friendly basket (18g), experiment more with higher ratios and then gradually work my way back towards 1:2.


----------



## Garfield

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Great news Miroslav!!!!! Yes - there are plenty of roasts inside the EU and also in the UK which will ship abroad.
> 
> I know UK ones you can start:
> 
> - https://ravecoffee.co.uk
> - https://www.hasbean.co.uk
> - https://www.theroastery.co.uk
> 
> There are plenty more, and there's a thread in this forum. Good luck!


 Hi @MediumRoastSteam and @PD2020,

I ordered 1kg of Rave Signature Blend. It will be in Croatia in 3-6days via DHL! Thanks for the recommendation!

I will inform you how it was. Today I brewed last 17grams of Illy with 1.5 ratio and 0 temperature setting and bitterness was removed. Probably smaller ratio helped, thanks @Doram for your advice.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Garfield said:


> Hi @MediumRoastSteam and @PD2020,
> 
> I ordered 1kg of Rave Signature Blend. It will be in Croatia in 3-6days via DHL! Thanks for the recommendation!
> 
> I will inform you how it was. Today I brewed last 17grams of Illy with 1.5 ratio and 0 temperature setting and bitterness was removed. Probably smaller ratio helped, thanks @Doram for your advice.


 Brilliant! Imagine if you had taken the machine back to the retailer and then decided to buy just "a-another" machine... And the same issue is still there.

I'm so happy for you. Enjoy your new journey!


----------



## KyNg

A friend of mine which happens to My Lelit Distributor as well want to sell me group head thermo? I'm still wondering whether this one is necessary? What do you guys think? If it's shiny stainless i probably would grab it lol.. but this one is quite cheap he sell to me like 30 bucks?


----------



## Lucian_Blue

Go for it. Maybe bc he is your friend is doing it. Mara x is a machine with a wide range of temp fluctuations.


----------



## Doram

KyNg said:


> A friend of mine which happens to My Lelit Distributor as well want to sell me group head thermo? I'm still wondering whether this one is necessary? What do you guys think? If it's shiny stainless i probably would grab it lol.. but this one is quite cheap he sell to me like 30 bucks?


 I think it would mostly serve to confirm that your machine is working as it should and keeping the temperature within the 2-degree band as you have set in the 3-position brew temp switch. As far as I understand, you won't have much control over the temperature otherwise, so why would you need the thermometer?

Unless you have a reason to suspect something is wrong with your machine, I wouldn't bother. I chose this machine so I will be able to not worry about the temperature and trust it to take care of it for me.

But of course you might enjoy looking at the thermometer and confirming that the temperature is where you want it to be, in which case go ahead and make your friend happy. 🙂


----------



## skylark

My understanding is that the temperature may not be optimum if you pull shots with a delay which I believe (?) to be around 4-5 mins between each shot. If there is this delay then a quick purge followed by a wait of up to 15mins to allow the grouphead temps to stabilise would be needed. If you regularly use the machine in this way, as I do because I'm just too slow with my prep of a couple of lattes each morning, then I can see a digital thermometer coming in very useful. Would only be needed in this circumstance I would say ...


----------



## seraphaem

Hey everyone, I've had my Mara x for about a week and am loving it but am running into an issue. Today after making a coffee I went to do a backflush and no water came out of the grouphead. After turning it on and off again the power pilot light started flashing with the other two off. Each subsequent restart results in it alternating between all 3 lights flashing and the power light flashing. The steps to disable standby mode don't seem to be helping.

I thought I disabled standby after getting it to work again the first time this happened. It worked for a week before doing this again. A couple of videos below showing what I've tried.

https://streamable.com/mfgayf

https://streamable.com/4ej4ww

Has anyone come across this before?


----------



## KyNg

Thanks lucian, doram n skylark for helping.. my wife dont like the look of it.. so i probably will hold for a sec to buy i only use it for myself for now..

@seraphaem mine dont have that problem but from what i look on your video why you turn on the lever then turn on the machine? Maybe you should turn down the lever first maybe you can take a look on youtube for the usual workflow on most people? I dont know never encounter that issue.. not in this forum either i thought.. anyone?


----------



## robti

seraphaem said:


> Hey everyone, I've had my Mara x for about a week and am loving it but am running into an issue. Today after making a coffee I went to do a backflush and no water came out of the grouphead. After turning it on and off again the power pilot light started flashing with the other two off. Each subsequent restart results in it alternating between all 3 lights flashing and the power light flashing. The steps to disable standby mode don't seem to be helping.
> 
> I thought I disabled standby after getting it to work again the first time this happened. It worked for a week before doing this again. A couple of videos below showing what I've tried.
> 
> https://streamable.com/mfgayf
> 
> https://streamable.com/4ej4ww
> 
> Has anyone come across this before?


 I had this with mine at the start there was a video on here also a link on bellabarista for owners who bought from there


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

seraphaem said:


> Hey everyone, I've had my Mara x for about a week and am loving it but am running into an issue. Today after making a coffee I went to do a backflush and no water came out of the grouphead. After turning it on and off again the power pilot light started flashing with the other two off. Each subsequent restart results in it alternating between all 3 lights flashing and the power light flashing. The steps to disable standby mode don't seem to be helping.
> 
> I thought I disabled standby after getting it to work again the first time this happened. It worked for a week before doing this again. A couple of videos below showing what I've tried.
> 
> https://streamable.com/mfgayf
> 
> https://streamable.com/4ej4ww
> 
> Has anyone come across this before?


 So...

lever all the way down
machine off

turn machine on. 
lever all the way up

No water comes out? I'm lost.

For standby turn on/off:

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/lelit-marax-review-in-progress/#standby


----------



## skylark

Got water in tank would be my first thought ...


----------



## skylark

I'm not that sure but doesn't the lever need to be in tha halfway position when you power up initially? Its a while since I switched my standby off though so could be way off beam ...


----------



## seraphaem

The water tank is full and the light starts flashing when I start it up with the lever in the normal position. A tech from the shop I bought it from will call on Monday so hopefully they can help work it out.


----------



## skylark

Check that the water tank is seated properly.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Doram

seraphaem said:


> The water tank is full and the light starts flashing when I start it up with the lever in the normal position. A tech from the shop I bought it from will call on Monday so hopefully they can help work it out.


 Not sure if this is relevant, but could it be that the machine isn't detecting the presence of the water tank? I remember seeing people having trouble with the water tank not positioned properly or not seated all the way down. Another related issue I have seen is that the water tank detection micro switch gets unseated (see pic below). There was a discussion about this issue in the Home Barista forum, starting around message 433 on page 44-45 of the thread: https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/lelit-marax-t61215-434.html. Maybe you have something similar?


----------



## JohnC56

Would mara be a downgrade from vesuvius? Thinking of downsizing


----------



## skylark

JohnC56 said:


> Would mara be a downgrade from vesuvius? Thinking of downsizing


I would say so but I've not had a V. I DO have a marax and Vesuvius would be a nice jump, just my opinion.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Doram

JohnC56 said:


> Would mara be a downgrade from vesuvius? Thinking of downsizing


 This would greatly depend on how you use the machine, wouldn't it? The V is a double boiler with pressure profiling that can be plumed in, so if you make many shots, or use pressure profiling, plumb the machine in, or control the temperature to a single degree - you won't be able to do all that on the Lelit. If you don't take advantage of the features of the V, then the difference might be less noticeable.

But you own the V so probably already know all this. It's a personal choice, and you are the only person that matters, so other people's opinions aren't that important. 🙂


----------



## JohnC56

Aye. Thoughts come to smaller machine quicker heat up time so we dont have to leave it on all day but something that is temp stable and not too expensive.


----------



## Doram

JohnC56 said:


> Aye. Thoughts come to smaller machine quicker heat up time so we dont have to leave it on all day but something that is temp stable and not too expensive.


 Size, price and heat up time of the Mara X are known and can easily be compared to the V. Only your opinion matters as to how these translate to advantages/disadvantages for you.

The 'official' heat up time of the Mara X is 24 minutes. I never measured it to the second, but my impression is that it doesn't need any more than that, and maybe is ready even a little sooner. I don't leave my machine on for extended time. It's on a smart socket and ready in the morning for when I want it. For the second shot of the day I turn it on via phone/Alexa/button on socket, and it's set to turn off automatically after one hour (to make sure I don't forget it on for longer). This works for me, but others like to do it differently. You know how you use the V, so ask yourself what you would need to do differently, and if you care about the changes you will need to make if you go for the Lelit.


----------



## Mrboots2u

JohnC56 said:


> Aye. Thoughts come to smaller machine quicker heat up time so we dont have to leave it on all day but something that is temp stable and not too expensive.


 What's the price ceiling


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

JohnC56 said:


> Aye. Thoughts come to smaller machine quicker heat up time so we dont have to leave it on all day but something that is temp stable and not too expensive.


 Don't think the heat up time will be any different. They both sport an E61. If you want something which heats up quickly, check out the Lelit Elizabeth.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/53045-new-upgraded-lelit-on-the-block-elizabeth/?do=embed#comments


----------



## Mrboots2u

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Don't think the heat up time will be any different. They both sport an E61. If you want something which heats up quickly, check out the Lelit Elizabeth.
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/53045-new-upgraded-lelit-on-the-block-elizabeth/?do=embed#comments


 V should have an eco mode . 
Bianca has few quickest heat up of any e61 from memory . Especially in eco

https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/why-has-lelit-biancas-astonishing-warmup-time-been-kept-so-quiet-t65500.html


----------



## JohnC56

Ah ok, cheers. Around a grand mrboots. Sounds like I should MAKE space when we downsize


----------



## Mrboots2u

JohnC56 said:


> Ah ok, cheers. Around a grand mrboots. Sounds like I should MAKE space when we downsize


 Sage dual boiler , quick heat up time ,

temp stable and can be modded to do flow profiling ,


----------



## JohnC56

Good suggestion thanks. Reliability issues? Sorry dont want to derail this thread


----------



## Mrboots2u

JohnC56 said:


> Good suggestion thanks. Reliability issues? Sorry dont want to derail this thread


 Will depend who you ask , I had an oracle for example , it's still going 7 years later , and has had a terrible life .


----------



## JohnC56

👍🏻 Cheers


----------



## Mrboots2u

JohnC56 said:


> 👍🏻 Cheers


 Or so much about reliability I suppose as ability to repair yourself with the sage machine


----------



## JohnC56

Mrboots2u said:


> Or so much about reliability I suppose as ability to repair yourself with the sage machine


 Ive got a hammer


----------



## skylark

Anyone feel that a shot timer would make the 'learning' curve a lot smoother on this machine. Surely someone can produce a retrofit able to be fitted by even the ham-fisted amongst us of which i'm one. I am aware that the available pid data can be ported out of the machine but i'm wondering why no-one has siezed the opportunity and designed an actual product to fit. Where are all the entrepreneurs? ... and why dont Lelit 'just do it'?


----------



## DavecUK

skylark said:


> Anyone feel that a shot timer would make the 'learning' curve a lot smoother on this machine. Surely someone can produce a retrofit able to be fitted by even the ham-fisted amongst us of which i'm one. I am aware that the available pid data can be ported out of the machine but i'm wondering why no-one has siezed the opportunity and designed an actual product to fit. Where are all the entrepreneurs? ... and why dont Lelit 'just do it'?


 For Lelit to do it would increase costs for all, I would imagine significantly..

For sure it might be a big opportunity for someone, if they can actually make a profitable, easy to fit product that people will pay for.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> For Lelit to do it would increase costs for all, I would imagine significantly..
> 
> For sure it might be a big opportunity for someone, if they can actually make a profitable, easy to fit product that people will pay for.


 One of the suggestions in the other thread about "Lelit Owners" is there the MaraX would be great with an LCC. However, saying that, I do love the simple approach, no digital displays in the MaraX.

@skylark - let's not forget that up until very recently, most machines, not even fancy dual boilers, had a shot timer built in. I think the first one was the Profitec 700 back in 2014. Many manufacturers followed suit by making the PID display turn into a shot timer whist the pump was engaged. Most HX machines do not have a shot timer. Just keep a very small el cheapo wrist watch near the machine or just glance at any watch anywhere. It's just guidelines, you don't just do a shot timed. My Elizabeth has the ability to cut the shot after a a pre-programmed number of seconds. I don't use it, because I'm order to reach a certain weight ratio, it can be a a couple of seconds under or over, depending on humidity, temperature, dose, prep, etc.


----------



## skylark

MediumRoastSteam said:


> One of the suggestions in the other thread about "Lelit Owners" is there the MaraX would be great with an LCC. However, saying that, I do love the simple approach, no digital displays in the MaraX.
> 
> @skylark - let's not forget that up until very recently, most machines, not even fancy dual boilers, had a shot timer built in. I think the first one was the Profitec 700 back in 2014. Many manufacturers followed suit by making the PID display turn into a shot timer whist the pump was engaged. Most HX machines do not have a shot timer. Just keep a very small el cheapo wrist watch near the machine or just glance at any watch anywhere. It's just guidelines, you don't just do a shot timed. My Elizabeth has the ability to cut the shot after a a pre-programmed number of seconds. I don't use it, because I'm order to reach a certain weight ratio, it can be a a couple of seconds under or over, depending on humidity, temperature, dose, prep, etc.


 Understood ... but times move on and i hanker after the 'simple approach +' ... it would certainly assist me , and i'm sure a lot of others. Would take Marax to a different level, especially if it could be knocked out at a decent add-on price. Just needs a techy mind on the case, I pass on that one 😁


----------



## Jason11

Not a cheap option but the Acaia Lunar scales will pretty much give you an automatic shot timer. Just place the cup on the scales as you raise the lever to start the shot and it automatically tares/starts timer then when you lower the lever it automatically stops the timer when it senses no more flow.


----------



## jonasy

Question on water and power consumption. I make two batches of coffee a day, at around 10am and 2pm. Should I switch off the machine in between, let it be on, or use the standby mode ?


----------



## DavecUK

Personally I'd leave it on, it's only costing 250w of electricity. Much of that saving will be used to reheat the machine, so you might save in reality about 100W overall (1.4p). For a morning evening usage, I'd say yes, turn it off.

It's also nice to avoid unnecessary thermal cycling of the machine.

P.S in colder weather nothing is truly lost as it all helps keep the house warm.😊


----------



## jonasy

Thank you Dave, I'll leave it on, very good point about heating the house! I'll use that it missis complains 😁


----------



## skylark

jonasy said:


> Thank you Dave, I'll leave it on, very good point about heating the house! I'll use that it missis complains 😁


 I use that argument, it seems to work 😊


----------



## Doram

DavecUK said:


> P.S in colder weather nothing is truly lost as it all helps keep the house warm.😊


 Now I am tempted to replace the radiators in the house with coffee machines. 🤩


----------



## skylark

Doram said:


> Now I am tempted to replace the radiators in the house with coffee machines. 🤩


 Why didn't I think of that, coffee on tap as well as heating the house and, all plumbed supply 😆


----------



## Doram

skylark said:


> Why didn't I think of that, coffee on tap as well as heating the house and, all plumbed supply 😆


 Good point! I also know my wife will approve of changing the target temperature from 19.5 to 92 degrees. 😉


----------



## kico

I purchased a lelit 58 bottomless portafilter from amazon. Someone said it wouldn't fit 22g vst baskets.

I've just tried after receiving my VST baskets and it seems like it does. Did they change the handle to match the standard PF that comes with the MaraX and make this new shiny plastic accomodate larger portafilters?

Not sure if mine is fake or not, are fake PF a thing? There is no Lelit logo but it came in the usual box, seems high quality, sold by amazon.

https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/lelit-marax-t61215-280.html

https://www.amazon.co.uk/LELIT58-Bottomless-Filterholder-Stainless-Satin-Finish/dp/B082BPRJFP

https://espresso.lelit.com/accessorygroup/9

Picture also changed - it was this plastic textured handle on the amazon page when I ordered.

If the design has changed and it is the case, saves me having to buy the rocket one instead.

More pictures at imgur link


http://imgur.com/P3FgXRj


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

For reference, this is the post where the poster says the VST 22g WILL NOT fit.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48398-mara-x/?do=embed&comment=777959&embedComment=777959&embedDo=findComment

Wonder if Lelit has been reading this and changed it? 🙂


----------



## ashcroc

MediumRoastSteam said:


> For reference, this is the post where the poster says the VST 22g WILL NOT fit.
> 
> Wonder if Lelit has been reading this and changed it?


It's possible they've taken feedback onboard & increased the diameter of the hole they drill so deeper baskets won't foul.

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk


----------



## kico

I've messaged them to confirm, the quality of this PF is identical to the quality of my MaraX stock one.

I prefer the glossy black finish, matches the accents on the Marax.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

kico said:


> I've messaged them to confirm, the quality of this PF is identical to the quality of my MaraX stock one.
> 
> I prefer the glossy black finish, matches the accents on the Marax.


 On an off-topic note, I have two VST baskets. They don't have the VST inscription on the rim of the basket, just on the wall. I'm pretty sure in the past I had a VST basket which had the inscription on the rim. I'm intrigued.


----------



## kico

MediumRoastSteam said:


> On an off-topic note, I have two VST baskets. They don't have the VST inscription on the rim of the basket, just on the wall. I'm pretty sure in the past I had a VST basket which had the inscription on the rim. I'm intrigued.


 I bought 2 brand new vst baskets - 7g (ridged) and 22g (ridgeless) from ebay - they had all of the packaging, certificates.... Certificates are dated 2011. The 7g ridged does not have the vst marking on the rim.

My 18g ridgeless basket from hasbean should arrive sometime this week. Will let you know if it has these markings.


----------



## hotmetal

kico said:


> If the design has changed and it is the case, saves me having to buy the rocket one instead.


Interestingly I have a rocket one (from years back).

It doesn't say Rocket on it but the box does. Looks to me as if a 22g basket could foul the bottom, but I've never tried it (18g VST shown) and of course the design of the Rocket naked may also have been updated since i got mine.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@Jason11 has a brand new Rocket one. He can put us out of our misery 🙂


----------



## Doram

kico said:


> I purchased a lelit 58 bottomless portafilter from amazon. Someone said it wouldn't fit 22g vst baskets.
> 
> I've just tried after receiving my VST baskets and it seems like it does. Did they change the handle to match the standard PF that comes with the MaraX and make this new shiny plastic accomodate larger portafilters?


 Good job you bought from amazon: you can return it and ask them to send one that doesn't fit your basket. 😉

More seriously, from your picture the PF you have seems identical to the stock one. If the quality seems good to, and it works, and all your baskets fit - what difference does it make if it's 'fake'?


----------



## kico

Doram said:


> Good job you bought from amazon: you can return it and ask them to send one that doesn't fit your basket.
> More seriously, from your picture the PF you have seems identical to the stock one. If the quality seems good to, and it works, and all your baskets fit - what difference does it make if it's 'fake'?


After searching around and looking at the packaging I don't think this could be a fake anymore.

Other than the fact it is highly unlikely amazon themselves would sell a fake directly stocked by them, the quality is too good to be a copy. The weight etc is identical to the stock one.

Maybe rocket / lelit use exactly the same manufacturer for their bottomless pf, it looks the same as the rocket portafilter. This is what I was looking to buy, but out of stock at Bella Barista.

This did come in an authentic lelit box, with the labels, barcode, leaflet... I just found the lack of branding rather odd!

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk


----------



## skylark

kico said:


> I bought 2 brand new vst baskets - 7g (ridged) and 22g (ridgeless) from ebay - they had all of the packaging, certificates.... Certificates are dated 2011. The 7g ridged does not have the vst marking on the rim.
> 
> My 18g ridgeless basket from hasbean should arrive sometime this week. Will let you know if it has these markings.


 Hasbean 18 & 20g baskets both have info on the side not the rims, just purchased recently.


----------



## kico

skylark said:


> Hasbean 18 & 20g baskets both have info on the side not the rims, just purchased recently.


I googled vst ridgeless 22g and all of the sites with an actual picture of the 22g basket had a 22g basket with the writing on....

Therefore I believe it is only the 22g baskets which have the sizing on the rim. Maybe it's just easier to identify due to similar dimensions to the 20g or 24g, who knows?

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk


----------



## Jason11

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @Jason11 has a brand new Rocket one. He can put us out of our misery


Just tried the largest stock MaraX basket with the Rocket bottomless portafilter and looks like it fits OK to me


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Jason11 said:


> Just tried the largest stock MaraX basket with the Rocket bottomless portafilter and looks like it fits OK to me


 Does your Rocket PF looks like the one above or is the "bottomless" are wider?


----------



## Jason11

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Does your Rocket PF looks like the one above or is the "bottomless" are wider?


----------



## kico

Case closed, lelit responded.

They have changed the design.

This lelit is leli-git*









Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

On a separate and unrelated note, Lelit's support is ACE! I got in touch with them to ask a few questions about my machine, and they stuck with me, replied to emails and all sorts. Amazing service. Well done Lelit!


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> On a separate and unrelated note, Lelit's support is ACE! I got in touch with them to ask a few questions about my machine, and they stuck with me, replied to emails and all sorts. Amazing service. Well done Lelit!


 Wow, after all the talk here you still have more questions? 🤣

My experience with them was also A++.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> Wow, after all the talk here you still have more questions? 🤣
> 
> My experience with them was also A++.


 I always have questions!!!!


----------



## TacticalCake

Lately been having great results with going lower than normal dose. I used to dose around 17-18g but has now dropped to 14-14.5g

The sweetness really shines when you don't heavily dose it. This works even for milk based drinks.

Obviously this may depend on your beans, but I've been getting consistent results with the staple beans I consume from my country.


----------



## PD2020

TacticalCake said:


> Lately been having great results with going lower than normal dose. I used to dose around 17-18g but has now dropped to 14-14.5g
> 
> The sweetness really shines when you don't heavily dose it. This works even for milk based drinks.
> 
> Obviously this may depend on your beans, but I've been getting consistent results with the staple beans I consume from my country.


 What basket are you using? Did you change the basket when you went to 14g?


----------



## TacticalCake

PD2020 said:


> What basket are you using? Did you change the basket when you went to 14g?


 I went with the stock basket rated for 14-18g

I had to grind finer than usual though. Tamping also requires a bit more care than usual.

Perhaps the recent 18g trend simply has "too much body"?


----------



## skylark

TacticalCake said:


> I went with the stock basket rated for 14-18g
> 
> I had to grind finer than usual though. Tamping also requires a bit more care than usual.
> 
> Perhaps the recent 18g trend simply has "too much body"?


 I can't get any decent shot from 17-18g dose so I'll give this a try. So, still 1:2 ratio ?


----------



## Mrboots2u

TacticalCake said:


> I went with the stock basket rated for 14-18g
> 
> I had to grind finer than usual though. Tamping also requires a bit more care than usual.
> 
> Perhaps the recent 18g trend simply has "too much body"?


 Not sure how dose relates to body per se .

Sa lower dose would need a finer grind which may give more sweetness


----------



## Garfield

TacticalCake said:


> Lately been having great results with going lower than normal dose. I used to dose around 17-18g but has now dropped to 14-14.5g
> 
> The sweetness really shines when you don't heavily dose it. This works even for milk based drinks.
> 
> Obviously this may depend on your beans, but I've been getting consistent results with the staple beans I consume from my country.


 I must report that I also discovered better results by just lowering the dose from 18, 17 grams to 16.


----------



## skylark

Garfield said:


> I must report that I also discovered better results by just lowering the dose from 18, 17 grams to 16.


 So what's the concensus here? Lower dosage or higher? I'm well and truly flummoxed now. I appreciate that coffee brewing appears to be very subjective but as a new guy I need objectivity or else I"m not going to get off the blocks ..


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> So what's the concensus here? Lower dosage or higher? I'm well and truly flummoxed now. I appreciate that coffee brewing appears to be very subjective but as a new guy I need objectivity or else I"m not going to get off the blocks ..


 You have been complaining about the MaraX since you got it, saying that you can't get a decent shot. Are you sure it's the machine and not the coffee your are using? Please don't take the wrong way - I'm genuinely trying to help, as @Garfield was on the same boat earlier on until he tried a different coffee.

Just wondering whether you have tried other coffees on your machine and have also tried maybe the coffee you are drinking on another machine.


----------



## Doram

skylark said:


> So what's the concensus here? Lower dosage or higher? I'm well and truly flummoxed now. I appreciate that coffee brewing appears to be very subjective but as a new guy I need objectivity or else I"m not going to get off the blocks ..


 I don't have a definitive answer to the ultimate dose question, and I believe no one does. There are many variables. and as you said - ultimately it's a personal preference (This is probably true to almost everything coffee, so for anyone who doesn't like to handle lots of variables and personal preference - maybe coffee isn't the best hobby, lol ?).

So while there isn't a right answer, here are some things to consider:

- Bigger doses need coarser grind to achieve the same flow rate. This impacts extraction, and might be better/worse depending on the coffee used. Generally, darker roasts are easier to extract and therefore suitable for smaller doses (classic Italian espresso is dark roasted, 14g for a double shot). Modern third wave coffees tend to be roasted lighter and often used in bigger doses of 18-20 grams and more.

- If you are adding milk to your drinks, the amount of dilution depends on the size of the cup (if you are filling it). You can influence the strength of the drink by changing the size of the cup, or the amount of coffee.

- Bigger doses means more caffeine intake per shot. You can influence how coffee makes you feel by using bigger or smaller doses.

- Bigger doses give you a thicker puck. Some people say they are more forgiving with preparation and less prone to channeling, but they also provide more resistance and are harder work to extract properly. Smaller doses should be easier to extract (and you can extract more by grinding finer, as mentioned above).

- Smaller doses means you are using less coffee, so your beans will go further, saving money if this is important to you. Go from 18g to 16g, and every 8 shots you get one free. Go from 20g to 14g - and every 2.3 shots you have a free one. Roasters have the opposite interest (of course they want you to enjoy the coffee, I am not saying otherwise, but if you buy more coffee - they certainly won't mind).

- If you don't like the coffee you are getting, experiment more. It will help you get rid of the bag, which is the excuse you need to get different beans.

Personally, I don't like to overdose myself with coffee. I don't like huge drinks, and I don't mind saving money if I can. So for me, if I can get the flavour right, smaller doses are an advantage. I also saw the hype of big doses and got an 18g basket, but I have only used it a couple of times and didn't like the result so much, so went back to my 15g basket (at least for now).

Recently I have been using 16g doses (recommended by the roaster), but before writing this post I made a flat white with 15g, and you know what - I liked it better, so tomorrow I am going to try 14g.

And here is the beauty: You have the kit, you have the coffee. You don't need to rely on anyone to tell you what dose you like. Try it and see for yourself. That's the hobby. 🙂

Disclaimer: I am not an expert, just a newbie like you, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I have had coffee machines for many years, but I am still experimenting and looking for the perfect shot.


----------



## skylark

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You have been complaining about the MaraX since you got it, saying that you can't get a decent shot. Are you sure it's the machine and not the coffee your are using? Please don't take the wrong way - I'm genuinely trying to help, as @Garfield was on the same boat earlier on until he tried a different coffee.
> 
> Just wondering whether you have tried other coffees on your machine and have also tried maybe the coffee you are drinking on another machine.


 @MediumRoastSteam ... I have a thick skin, nothing offends so don't feel bad in complaining about my complaining 😀

Yes, I've tried about 8 or 9 coffees now all from independant roasters, coffee compass, blackcatcoffee, Tynemouth roasters, hasbean and the like. Been up and down the Maras temperature settings andI'm still not in any good place. I "think" my problem might be down to understanding brew ratios as it's no longer a problem to dial in beans. It was at the start but not now. I'm pulling shots of around 27-35 secs but they taste poor, to me! Maybe I just can't taste coffee properly, I dunno. Ratio-ing is something I've yet to move onto thinking that until I pull a decent shot then I can't move on with differring amounts or timings? All the gear yet little idea(s) .... stay calm and carry on I suppose, it's a marathon not a sprint I suppose 😏


----------



## Garfield

Hi @skylark, I have a little more experience now, so let me try to help you 🙂 I also changed different coffees but my brew timing was to short all the time. Maybe you should first find some beans from reputable roaster and then go longer time, 35 to 45 seconds. We have a long preinfusion time, which should be counted. What taste you are experiencing, try to describe?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> @MediumRoastSteam ... I have a thick skin, nothing offends so don't feel bad in complaining about my complaining 😀
> 
> Yes, I've tried about 8 or 9 coffees now all from independant roasters, coffee compass, blackcatcoffee, Tynemouth roasters, hasbean and the like. Been up and down the Maras temperature settinga an I'm still not in any good place. I "think" my problem might be down to understanding brew ratios as it's no longer a problem to dual in beabs. It was at the start but not now. I'm pulling shots of around 27-35 secs but they taste poor, to me! Maybe I just can't taste coffee properly, I dunno. Ratio-ing us something I've yet to move onto thinking that until I pull a decent shot then I can't move on with do differring amounts or timings? All the gear yet little idea(s) .... stay calm and carry on I suppose, it's a marathon not a sprint I suppose 😏


 🙂 OK - I'll tone my language accordingly then!!!!  (only kidding!)

What you could try - I'm sure other MaraX owners here would happily help you, is maybe find someone who likes the same sort of bean as you do (say, medium/dark, at a guess?) and exchange recipes, for the same bean? If you have a VST basket, even better, because then there's yet another variable to eliminate. And if you find someone with the same grinder, then even better again.

For example, I like light roasts these days. I'm drinking an Ethiopian Danisa from Foundy. VST Basket, Niche Zero grinder: 18.3g in, 36g out, 93C (so medium setting on your MaraX) over 42 seconds. Delicious (for me).

👍


----------



## skylark

MediumRoastSteam said:


> 🙂 OK - I'll tone my language accordingly then!!!!  (only kidding!)
> 
> What you could try - I'm sure other MaraX owners here would happily help you, is maybe find someone who likes the same sort of bean as you do (say, medium/dark, at a guess?) and exchange recipes, for the same bean? If you have a VST basket, even better, because then there's yet another variable to eliminate. And if you find someone with the same grinder, then even better again.
> 
> For example, I like light roasts these days. I'm drinking an Ethiopian Danisa from Foundy. VST Basket, Niche Zero grinder: 18.3g in, 36g out, 93C (so medium setting on your MaraX) over 42 seconds. Delicious (for me).
> 
> 👍


 Right ... stop there! Your 18g in 36g out takes how long? I hope you're not saying in 42secs and that your ratio at 42 secs is more like 45g due to you pulled the shot longer, yes or no?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> Right ... stop there! Your 18g in 36g out takes how long? I hope you're not saying in 42secs and that your ratio at 42 secs is more like 45g due to you pulled the shot longer, yes or no?


 Indeed. 42 seconds! For this coffee I'm drinking, for me, it's the sweet spot. This includes a 11 second pre infusion, but, even without pre-infusion, 36g over 42 seconds tastes superb for me. Keep to 1:2 and try a longer shot. It will force you to grind finer. From the moment you turn the pump on, aim for 36g in 38s and see if you find it better. 👍


----------



## skylark

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Indeed. 42 seconds! For this coffee I'm drinking, for me, it's the sweet spot. This includes a 11 second pre infusion, but, even without pre-infusion, 36g over 42 seconds tastes superb for me. Keep to 1:2 and try a longer shot. It will force you to grind finer. From the moment you turn the pump on, aim for 36g in 38s and see if you find it better. 👍


 That sounds to me like I should be timing from first drip given that it takes 10 secs of 'preinfusion' , I know it's not really but, before the the pump pressure increases from 4-10bar. If that sounds about right then effectively my shots from pump on are only of around the 20secs mark ...


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> That sounds to me like I should be timing from first drip given that it takes 10 secs of 'preinfusion' , I know it's not really but, before the the pump pressure increases from 4-10bar. If that sounds about right then effectively my shots from pump on are only of around the 20secs mark ...


 Try it. You might find the sweet spot! Try 30s from first drip. Aim for the first drip to be around 8 to 10 seconds.

My preference of course. No harm in trying. You never know 🙂


----------



## PD2020

Garfield said:


> Hi @skylark, I have a little more experience now, so let me try to help you 🙂 I also changed different coffees but my brew timing was to short all the time. Maybe you should first find some beans from reputable roaster and then go longer time, 35 to 45 seconds. We have a long preinfusion time, which should be counted. What taste you are experiencing, try to describe?


 Hi @Garfield. How are you getting on with Rave Signature Blend? Have you found some tasty recipes?


----------



## Garfield

PD2020 said:


> Hi @Garfield. How are you getting on with Rave Signature Blend? Have you found some tasty recipes?


 Hi @PD2020, I am still waiting for the beans. They are currently in Frankfurt 😄 What is going on by you, last time you wrote that you are waiting to degasse?


----------



## skylark

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Try it. You might find the sweet spot! Try 30s from first drip. Aim for the first drip to be around 8 to 10 seconds.
> 
> My preference of course. No harm in trying. You never know 🙂


 Right. Last comment cos I realise this is not what people want to read here in volume. When pulling my shot, am I looking for 25-30secs for my dose and once I can achieve that WITHOUT CHANGING MY GRIND I pull the shot longer thereby increasing both the volume and time taken OR do I grind finer and will aim for my original 1:2 ratio? This is where I'm going wrong I think. Just one aspect which is very confusing to me. Everything I'm seeing and hearing says aim for double the output??


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> Right. Last comment cos I realise this is not what people want to read here in volume. When pulling my shot, am I looking for 25-30secs for my dose and once I can achieve that WITHOUT CHANGING MY GRIND I pull the shot longer thereby increasing both the volume and time taken OR do I grind finer and will aim for my original 1:2 ratio? This is where I'm going wrong I think. Just one aspect which is very confusing to me. Everything I'm seeing and hearing says aim for double the output??


 It depends on what you want to change. *Personally, *I'd keep the ratio at 1:2. Tweak the grind to achieve the sort of time you want. Aim for *35s from the moment you start the pump *as a start. Then you increase or decrease the time *by changing the grind setting.*

Don't keep chasing tails though. With the Niche, once you dialled in, for the time you want, it should stay put pretty much. This is not perfect, there are other variables, like humidity, heating, etc... which will inevitably affect the overall time of the shot by a few seconds. So, if you see a couple seconds off, don't try to adjust it every time. You'd be forever adjusting it!

I'm happy to guide you through a video call Skylark if you want.👍 Just PM me.


----------



## Mrboots2u

I am not trying to be critical of anyone on here but

Your trying to fit your coffee preference into quite a narrow range of numbers borrowed from other people's coffee preferences . 
Its hard but you have to learn to change one thing at a time to get to something tasty .

I feel a little like across this thread and others that your not sure of the beans your buying , you don't like the machine ( can have a bit impact on enjoying your cup too ) do you actually want to drink espresso or make it into milk Americano, latte.

It's like trying got take bits of other people's religion to make your own to be happy .

So far I've hear drop the dose , time from first drips, pull for 25 seconds , without always getting a picture of why or what it's doing . 
someone says 16g dose is better( but what basket , what beans what ratio , what preference ) , should I try that , but without being sure why (so we are clear less dose , less resistance , means you can grind finer if you want, it you should be able to achieve similar result with an18g dose to be honest but without knowing a basket and type of beans it can lead to under dosing a basket which is bad too )

it's not about what we don't want to hear , it's sounds more like you want a set of numbers without getting what each one really does.


----------



## skylark

Mrboots2u said:


> I am not trying to be critical of anyone on here but
> 
> Your trying to fit your coffee preference into quite a narrow range of numbers borrowed from other people's coffee preferences .
> Its hard but you have to learn to change one thing at a time to get to something tasty .
> 
> I feel a little like across this thread and others that your not sure of the beans your buying , you don't like the machine ( can have a bit impact on enjoying your cup too ) do you actually want to drink espresso or make it into milk Americano, latte.
> 
> It's like trying got take bits of other people's religion to make your own to be happy .
> 
> So far I've hear drop the dose , time from first drips, pull for 25 seconds , without always getting a picture of why or what it's doing .
> someone says 16g dose is better( but what basket , what beans what ratio , what preference ) , should I try that , but without being sure why (so we are clear less dose , less resistance , means you can grind finer if you want, it you should be able to achieve similar result with an18g dose to be honest but without knowing a basket and type of beans it can lead to under dosing a basket which is bad too )
> 
> it's not about what we don't want to hear , it's sounds more like you want a set of numbers without getting what each one really does.


 Can I just say that you are wrong on almost everything you say. I find most members to be constructive in their responses. I asked a specific question which you went out of your way to ignore, successfully I should say. But, heyho, let's move on and not bicker about it eh ...


----------



## robti

I have been using 18g basket with 18g in and 36 out in roughly 36 seconds for many years using my gaggia classic, upgraded to a maraX and used the same settings for my flat white/lattes in the morning 5 off. Then I started to only drink 2 a day thinking that the coffee was too strong so dropped down to my 15g basket with 15in 30 out in 30 seconds , that lasted one day the coffee was too weak so back to 18g and just decided that I switch beans too much for my tastes


----------



## Mrboots2u

skylark said:


> Can I just say that you are wrong on almost everything you say. I find most members to be constructive in their responses. I asked a specific question which you went out of your way to ignore, successfully I should say. But, heyho, let's move on and not bicker about it eh ...


 ok no worries , as I said just trying to give some over sight to the thread as I see it.

to answer your question 5 seconds shouldn't be the variable you are using to adjust your shot variables ,taste if and see what you can taste , it's been said before but shots can be tasty from 20 seconds to 45 seconds plus , not just a narrow 5 second window that you seem to be pinning yourself into which in the long run isn't going to be a helpful variable to work to.

But have fun making coffee , and try and enjoy what you make , however you make it .


----------



## MWJB

skylark said:


> That sounds to me like I should be timing from first drip given that it takes 10 secs of 'preinfusion' , I know it's not really but, before the the pump pressure increases from 4-10bar. If that sounds about right then effectively my shots from pump on are only of around the 20secs mark ...


 If you preinfuse, the shot will run faster after preinfusion (compared to not preinfusing). You're not looking for significantly different total shot time (time that you run the pump for)...but don't get too hung up on shot time in any case, because it has wide natural variation and you can great & foul shots in the same time.

Focus more on grind setting & how that affects the taste at your preferred ratio, yes the time will shift some due to grind setting, but there will also be a fair bit of overlap in times between good & not so good grind settings.

Time doesn't brew coffee, grind setting does...it just takes a fairly vague amount of time for it to happen.


----------



## skylark

Mrboots2u said:


> ok no worries , as I said just trying to give some over sight to the thread as I see it.
> 
> to answer your question 5 seconds shouldn't be the variable you are using to adjust your shot variables ,taste if and see what you can taste , it's been said before but shots can be tasty from 20 seconds to 45 seconds plus , not just a narrow 5 second window that you seem to be pinning yourself into which in the long run isn't going to be a helpful variable to work to.
> 
> But have fun making coffee , and try and enjoy what you make , however you make it .


 That 25-30secs window, from what I have read and o served, seems to be a universally accepted base for pulling a "decent' espresso at a 1:2 ratio. Is everyone wrong on this? I'm prepared to accept what you say but again that didn't address my original question. Maybe you thought you had an answer but it was too a question which I didn't raise. I agree, let's each move on ...


----------



## MWJB

skylark said:


> That 25-30secs window, from what I have read and o served, seems to be a universally accepted base for pulling a "decent' espresso at a 1:2 ratio. Is everyone wrong on this?


 Yes, they are wrong, it is coincidental that many shots will fall in this time frame, but the time frame is not making this happen. A span of 5 seconds is less than natural variation. Changing beans, at similar extraction could shift some shots by 4 seconds.


----------



## Mrboots2u

skylark said:


> That 25-30secs window, from what I have read and o served, seems to be a universally accepted base for pulling a "decent' espresso at a 1:2 ratio. Is everyone wrong on this? I'm prepared to accept what you say but again that didn't address my original question. Maybe you thought you had an answer but it was too a question which I didn't raise. I agree, let's each move on ...


 Reboot here , what is wrong with the shots you are making .

I promise not t give you anymore advice but it may help others that do.


----------



## skylark

MWJB said:


> If you preinfuse, the shot will run faster after preinfusion (compared to not preinfusing). You're not looking for significantly different total shot time (time that you run the pump for)...but don't get too hung up on shot time in any case, because it has wide natural variation and you can great & foul shots in the same time.
> 
> Focus more on grind setting & how that affects the taste at your preferred ratio, yes the time will shift some due to grind setting, but there will also be a fair bit of overlap in times between good & not so good grind settings.
> 
> Time doesn't brew coffee, grind setting does...it just takes a fairly vague amount of time for it to happen.


 Thanks.

Marax doesn't preinfuse to my knowledge though? My grind setting achieves a 1:2 ratio within the recognised time. Shots taste terrible. But why? Surely something decent should come along every now and then irrespective of any other little glitches? Fresh beans, good RO water, niche zero and zilch. Thanks for your input.

I'm calling an end to this discussion some of you will be pleased to hear. No further comments please.

To those who have taken a genuine interest, thanks. I'm taking a break.


----------



## Mrboots2u

skylark said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Marax doesn't preinfuse to my knowledge though? My grind setting achieves a 1:2 ratio within the recognised time. Shots taste terrible. But why? Surely something decent should come along every now and then irrespective of any other little glitches? Fresh beans, good RO water, niche zero and zilch. Thanks for your input.
> 
> I'm calling an end to this discussion some of you will be pleased to hear. No further comments please.
> 
> To those who have taken a genuine interest, thanks. I'm taking a break.


 From HB review

Preinfusion:
The X has a fine tuned preinfusion which is, to my mind, as important as the temperature control. Normally on an E61, there is almost no rise in pressure for the first 6 to 8 seconds. The puck is wetting, but at very low pressure. After this time,the pressure ramps up very quickly. On the X, Lelit has used a smaller jet and a stiffer preinfusion spring. This results in a steady pressure ramp up, starting almost immediately and hitting 10 bar after about 15 seconds. The benefit is that the machine can handle finer grinds at higher doses. The grind and dose setting on the X is more like a commercial lever machine than a conventional E61. Being able to use finer grinds at higher doses makes handling light roasted coffees nearly as easy as it is on lever and profiling machines.


----------



## MWJB

skylark said:


> I'm calling an end to this discussion some of will be pleased to here. No further comments please.
> 
> To those who have taken a genuine interest, thanks. I'm taking a break.


 I'm pretty sure that no one is happy to hear that you aren't getting what you want from your coffee.

It would be fair to assume that anyone who has contributed is genuinely interested.


----------



## Mrboots2u

skylark said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Marax doesn't preinfuse to my knowledge though? My grind setting achieves a 1:2 ratio within the recognised time. Shots taste terrible. But why? Surely something decent should come along every now and then irrespective of any other little glitches? Fresh beans, good RO water, niche zero and zilch. Thanks for your input.
> 
> I'm calling an end to this discussion some of you will be pleased to hear. No further comments please.
> 
> To those who have taken a genuine interest, thanks. I'm taking a break.


 Bit harsh to judge anyone posting as not trying to help you or being ungenuine , be it me, Mwjb or whoever.

we all take time to post and try and help ,giving up time for free.


----------



## skylark

Mrboots2u said:


> Reboot here , what is wrong with the shots you are making .
> 
> I promise not t give you anymore advice but it may help others that do.


 As I said, the vast majority of members are v.heloful and do offer up answers for which I am genuinely grateful. What I do find a problem with are those condescending responses which offer no assistance whatsoever to the questions being put and are more aimed at belittling a questioner and raising profiles than offering constructive help 😏


----------



## Mrboots2u

skylark said:


> As I said, the vast majority of members are v.heloful and do offer up answers for which I am genuinely grateful. What I do find a problem with are those condescending responses which offer no assistance whatsoever to the questions being put and are more aimed at belittling a questioner and raising profiles than offering constructive help 😏


 Hey it's the internet ,one mans genuine response is seen as another mans condescending, but it would have helped going back basics on what is wrong ,, so others don't have to plough through the thread again. Plus I genuinely don't know where the fault in your brews currently lie ,I suspect I am not the only one.

im not trying to catch you out , I don't give a fig about profile whatever that is .

ignore advice you don't like for sure put me in ignore ,sure plenty have . I won't take offence.


----------



## DavecUK

Guys, please cool it a little. Everyone who is posting on here is trying to help. I have not seen anyone do anything else. It takes a long time to become truly comfortable with machine, Grinder and bean. All of us have our own ways and they often work for us and not always for others.

Often comments are misinterpreted on a forum, which is a shame. I have enjoyed watching this discussion and look forward to @skylarkachieving his objectives, as I am sure it will help other people in a similar situation.

@Mrboots2uspecifically has helped many people over the years and has a depth of knowledge to share.


----------



## skylark

And I'm back! © @DavecUK

Just to thank @MediumRoastSteam for his assistance by ...

'Then you increase or decrease the time *by changing the grind setting.'*

which is the contextual answer to the question I asked.

Simple and straight to the point, appreciated!


----------



## Mrboots2u

To add A little if I may , changing the grind finer will to a certain point increase extraction or potential sweetness which can give a nominal change in time it takes to extract . Changing grind effects taste balance with the nominal measure that time goes up . Increasing the time a shot takes doesn't always lead to increased extraction. Which is why aiming for a narrow time reference can not always be the best way to get to tasty ,
Time and extraction Will depend on whether a shot is channeling or not , some times channeling can occur when you have taken a grind too fine and the shot chokes a little. 
there is a point for all grinders when going to fine means time of a shot will increase but you reach the point where it is having no impact on how the coffee extracts or can be detracting from it. 
lastly increasing a dose , increases resistance also and can push your shot time up, but if you keep the ratio the same will actually decrease extraction and balance . Hence again why time can be an arbitrary variable to judge a shot by .

all worth having as context to the time of a shot and what Its doing .


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> And I'm back! © @DavecUK
> 
> Just to thank @MediumRoastSteam for his assistance by ...
> 
> 'Then you increase or decrease the time *by changing the grind setting.'*
> 
> which is the contextual answer to the question I asked.
> 
> Simple and straight to the point, appreciated!


 Don't take it as gospel though. It's just one way of changing a recipe. It's not right, it's not wrong. As I said before, will say again... try it. See what works for you. Whatever you have been trying is obviously not working for you. So, try this approach and see how it goes. 👍


----------



## kico

My niche zero isn't due until Dec and the ground coffee that Bella Barista sent with the Mara X is 5 days old.

I am now using a sage 58mm dual wall pressurised basket with my cr*p dualit burr grinder.

Looks very funny with the bottomless PF. Tastes much better using freshly roasted freshly ground beans and I can actually dial in the grind as the pressurised basket doesn't need coffee ground as finely.

Method etc is largely out of the window, still using WDT and proper tamping for my own sanity, but it does produce an okay shot. Will put the bottomless PF away for now!

This is likely the wrong place to ask, but does anyone have tips on getting the most out of a pressurised basket with a rubbish burr grinder?

/monthly_2020_10/WhatsApp_Video_2020-10-22.mp4.0693b9b99630a7441717b219e4dd4d3f.mp4" type="video/mp4">
View attachment WhatsApp_Video_2020-10-22.mp4


----------



## skylark

Ouch 😳,

There's a nice little Specialita grinder in the FS&W section 😏


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

kico said:


> My niche zero isn't due until Dec and the ground coffee that Bella Barista sent with the Mara X is 5 days old.
> 
> I am now using a sage 58mm dual wall pressurised basket with my cr*p dualit burr grinder.
> 
> Looks very funny with the bottomless PF. Tastes much better using freshly roasted freshly ground beans and I can actually dial in the grind as the pressurised basket doesn't need coffee ground as finely.
> 
> Method etc is largely out of the window, still using WDT and proper tamping for my own sanity, but it does produce an okay shot. Will put the bottomless PF away for now!
> 
> This is likely the wrong place to ask, but does anyone have tips on getting the most out of a pressurised basket with a rubbish burr grinder?
> 
> View attachment 47026


 You are a brave person! 😂


----------



## kico

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You are a brave person!


Brave because pressurised baskets are looked down upon in terms of taste, or safety?

It really isn't that bad once the shot has settled! Drinkable and I'd say better than cafe Nero / Starbucks.

Crema is obviously fake, but it beats buying + trying to dial in using a hand grinder for 4 weeks.

Gaggia provide pressurised baskets with the classic pro. I think from a safety perspective there isn't any issue using it with the marax.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

kico said:


> Brave because pressurised baskets are looked down upon in terms of taste, or safety?


 Risking of having your kitchen re-decorated due to the pressure out of the orifice!


----------



## skylark

Mrboots2u said:


> I am not trying to be critical of anyone on here but
> 
> Your trying to fit your coffee preference into quite a narrow range of numbers borrowed from other people's coffee preferences .
> Its hard but you have to learn to change one thing at a time to get to something tasty .
> 
> I feel a little like across this thread and others that your not sure of the beans your buying , you don't like the machine ( can have a bit impact on enjoying your cup too ) do you actually want to drink espresso or make it into milk Americano, latte.
> 
> It's like trying got take bits of other people's religion to make your own to be happy .
> 
> So far I've hear drop the dose , time from first drips, pull for 25 seconds , without always getting a picture of why or what it's doing .
> someone says 16g dose is better( but what basket , what beans what ratio , what preference ) , should I try that , but without being sure why (so we are clear less dose , less resistance , means you can grind finer if you want, it you should be able to achieve similar result with an18g dose to be honest but without knowing a basket and type of beans it can lead to under dosing a basket which is bad too )
> 
> it's not about what we don't want to hear , it's sounds more like you want a set of numbers without getting what each one really does.


 'I am not trying to be critical of anyone on here but .... '

You were.

Thanks to all who have given me their time and helped me get to where I am now. Obviously it's not good enough for some who seem to think I'm wasting everyone's time including my own. So, advice taken, I'm leaving. Cheers to the good guys, you know who you are 😏


----------



## kico

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Risking of having your kitchen re-decorated due to the pressure out of the orifice!


But it looks cool, no?

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk


----------



## kico

skylark said:


> Ouch ,
> There's a nice little Specialita grinder in the FS&W section


I did see that but It would be irresponsible. I'm not that desperate + that colour is interesting, I can wait 3-4 weeks!!

Headache to sell after using it too!

I'm quite impressed by the pressurised baskets to be honest!

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk


----------



## Mrboots2u

skylark said:


> 'I am not trying to be critical of anyone on here but .... '
> 
> You were.
> 
> Thanks to all who have given me their time and helped me get to where I am now. Obviously it's not good enough for some who seem to think I'm wasting everyone's time including my own. So, advice taken, I'm leaving. Cheers to the good guys, you know who you are 😏


 It was simply an observation , and again not meant to be a slight , if that is how it has come across it was not my intention. But I apologise anyway as I don't want to be the source of someone leaving .


----------



## jaffro

kico said:


> My niche zero isn't due until Dec and the ground coffee that Bella Barista sent with the Mara X is 5 days old.
> 
> I am now using a sage 58mm dual wall pressurised basket with my cr*p dualit burr grinder.
> 
> Looks very funny with the bottomless PF. Tastes much better using freshly roasted freshly ground beans and I can actually dial in the grind as the pressurised basket doesn't need coffee ground as finely.
> 
> Method etc is largely out of the window, still using WDT and proper tamping for my own sanity, but it does produce an okay shot. Will put the bottomless PF away for now!
> 
> This is likely the wrong place to ask, but does anyone have tips on getting the most out of a pressurised basket with a rubbish burr grinder?
> 
> View attachment 47026


 That's actually kind of interesting. I've never used a pressurised basket at all, let alone with a bottomless PF!

But to answer your question... No, absutely no idea how to get the best out if one haha.

Only thing I guess I'd say is that you may as well get your workflow nailed while you wait because it's all transferable experience 😊


----------



## Garfield

Hi @PD2020 @MediumRoastSteam

Rave Signature Blend arrived. Great coffee, thanks for recommendation.

I don't have a VST basket, using 14-18 one that arrived with Marax. I am trying/experimenting with 1:2 ratio 18grams in, but i have always some sourish taste present with that ratio. If i go with to 1:2.5, it is bland. I really need to go for very long time to get balanced shot, like 50seconds. First drop is around 20seconds. I will continue to tweak and will send you the findings.

I use setting 1 for a temperature and pressure is almost at 10bars.


----------



## PD2020

Garfield said:


> Hi @PD2020 @MediumRoastSteam
> 
> Rave Signature Blend arrived. Great coffee, thanks for recommendation.
> 
> I don't have a VST basket, using 14-18 one that arrived with Marax. I am trying/experimenting with 1:2 ratio 18grams in, but i have always some sourish taste present with that ratio. If i go with to 1:2.5, it is bland. I really need to go for very long time to get balanced shot, like 50seconds. First drop is around 20seconds. I will continue to tweak and will send you the findings.
> 
> I use setting 1 for a temperature and pressure is almost at 10bars.


 Excellent.

Pressure and temp sound fine. It's most likely going to be about the grind setting and ratio (It's not uncommon for 1:2 to be sour for medium roasts like this one).

Check once that when you lock in tamped coffee and take it out immediately, the puck is still nice and flat. I had an experience with Rave Chatswood Blend where 18g of it was too much for my 18g VST basket.

I imagine with Eureka Atom you have to purge when changing grind settings (not sure how much coffee needs to purged before the new setting becomes effective).

What @damo was doing in his/her Rave Signature Blend forum thread, I guess to minimise purging, was to pick a grinder setting and then try it at different yields. Then, if needed, change a grinder setting and trying your yields again.

Hope it works out.


----------



## bpowell555

Hi all, my nearly new MaraX just lost brew pressure. The pump is pumping but nothing (very little) is happening. Yes the water is filled 😉

Any ideas before I call BellaB Monday and emark on the dreaded 30 days RTB 😭

Normally I'd have the thing open but I don't want to upset the warranty.

Is there an OPV trip maybe??

Guess I won't be putting the Gaggia Classic on ebay just yet 😔


----------



## PD2020

I've had a case where the internal circuits were empty (after emptying the tank) and I had to run the pump for a bit longer until something came out. From then on it was as expected. How long did you wait before you moved the lever back to off?


----------



## bpowell555

Hi thanks for the reply. Just took the water filter out to make sure that wasn't it. It still runs just won't go above about 1 bar pressure. There's nothing coming out the vent into the tank - opv? - so it's like it's running on just very low line pressure. I guess the pump is just a bit dead? I can't see any evidence of a leak and again I don't want to open it up.


----------



## bpowell555

If it has developed a partial air lock is there anything I can do?

Just checked blind basket pressure and it's barely 1 bar but boiler pressure is higher than I'd expect, over 1.5bar and increases with the brew pump on. Broken HX pumping into the steam boiler?


----------



## DavecUK

bpowell555 said:


> If it has developed a partial air lock is there anything I can do?
> 
> Just checked blind basket pressure and it's barely 1 bar but boiler pressure is higher than I'd expect, over 1.5bar and increases with the brew pump on. Broken HX pumping into the steam boiler?


 No you don't have a broken HX.

Can you make a video with sound and your blind filter loaded.....then do another with no portafilter loaded and show the flow of water from the group.

Thanks


----------



## bpowell555

Thanks Dave just warming her up now 😊


----------



## bpowell555

OK before I upload the vid, the pump cycled on start and went to full pressure. On the blind filter test it seemed OK, 2,4 then 9.5 bar. Flow seemed OK. It still seems to be running a bit warm but that could just be normal from startup. I'm going to try a Latte now. Why would it have need a complete cool down cycle? 🤔


----------



## DavecUK

bpowell555 said:


> Why would it have need a complete cool down cycle? 🤔


 It's possible it airlocked and if the HX was still in the boiler overheat cycle it simply couldn't create enough suction to pull the water up the pipe. Unusual with vibe pumps but can happen hence the deaerators sometimes fitted. The QuietX pump however has a better "pull" than most. Do you run with a filter in the the tank, if it got really low, that could have airlocked?

 Just out of curiosity what's the water you put in the machine like.

P.S. always clear an airlock with an empty group and full tank.


----------



## bpowell555

Omg the BellaB Milk Buster is bloody delicious 😋


----------



## bpowell555

Hi Dave thanks again, machine heal thyself! Water was a bit low but the light hadn't started blinking. Generally the water here is very soft (southern). I cut open my classic boiler when I changed it and the inside was pretty clean after over ten years in my ownership and it being a 2002 model. I understand these machines should in any case be descaled once a year. I'll put the filter back in now and try and keep it a bit fuller and see how I get on. Cheers! 🙌


----------



## PD2020

Garfield said:


> Hi @PD2020, I am still waiting for the beans. They are currently in Frankfurt 😄 What is going on by you, last time you wrote that you are waiting to degasse?


 Hi @Garfield! Yup, I started brewing them.

I've had some fun with Crankhouse Decaf beans which I finally found a balanced shot with (18g in, 90g out, 30s shot time). You get lots of oranges from it and it's finally a drinkable shot with acidic coffee - so very pleased with it  Still experimenting to see what else is possible with this coffee. I've also tried it in latte and it was nice, but I feel like lattes are very forgiving and (almost) any shot tastes good milk, so I'm trying to learn to drink black coffee for now 

I've tried some Rave Chatswood Blend as well, but I'm finding it very ashy at this point. I'm trying coarser grinds now. Shorter ratios and lower temperature are my other, still untried, weapons in the arsenal.

I think the most important change I have made in the last weeks is slowing down. For instance with Crankhouse I make only 1 shot a day, drink it fully, and appreciate all of its good and bad sides. I feel it helps me to learn about the coffee better. I hope it will develop my tasting skills - so crucial in the dialing in process.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

bpowell555 said:


> I understand these machines should in any case be descaled once a year.


 Not sure where you read this, but the idea is that you never descale. If you keep feeding the machine water which won't scale, then there's no need to descale - ever. Try to avoid it, it's better that way.


----------



## KyNg

Hi guys another quick question.. since i've to leave the machine for couple of days maybe weeks because just got a newborn baby and living with mom in law..

What should i do with the machine? For now I've empty the water reservoir and quite drain out water from hot water wand.. hope that's enough. But not sure.


----------



## DavecUK

couple of days to a week nothing...

2 weeks or more...drain HX and Boiler as much as possible and empty storage tank (gold standard).



Switch on, wait for machine to fully heat up


Switch off, Lift brew lever and open water tap...wait for all water to drain into containers


Lower lever


remove internal tank and empty, then replace.


----------



## KyNg

DavecUK said:


> couple of days to a week nothing...
> 
> 2 weeks or more...drain HX and Boiler as much as possible and empty storage tank (gold standard).
> 
> 
> 
> Switch on, wait for machine to fully heat up
> 
> 
> Switch off, Lift brew lever and open water tap...wait for all water to drain into containers
> 
> 
> Lower lever
> 
> 
> remove internal tank and empty, then replace.


 Noted.. Thank youu @DavecUK


----------



## bpowell555

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Not sure where you read this, but the idea is that you never descale. If you keep feeding the machine water which won't scale, then there's no need to descale - ever. Try to avoid it, it's better that way.


 Oki doki 👍😎


----------



## KyNg

DavecUK said:


> couple of days to a week nothing...
> 
> 2 weeks or more...drain HX and Boiler as much as possible and empty storage tank (gold standard).
> 
> 
> 
> Switch on, wait for machine to fully heat up
> 
> 
> Switch off, Lift brew lever and open water tap...wait for all water to drain into containers
> 
> 
> Lower lever
> 
> 
> remove internal tank and empty, then replace.


 Dave, sorry to ask again.. it happens i cant leave this machine for so long so yesterday i grab my machine to my mom in law house lol.. but today the bar pressure not getting to 10 but only 8.. then slowly decreasing.. is it because i drain the water from service boiler last time? Not sure.. or should i put a test on blind basket? Thanks again..


----------



## KyNg

KyNg said:


> Dave, sorry to ask again.. it happens i cant leave this machine for so long so yesterday i grab my machine to my mom in law house lol.. but today the bar pressure not getting to 10 but only 8.. then slowly decreasing.. is it because i drain the water from service boiler last time? Not sure.. or should i put a test on blind basket? Thanks again..


 I have try using my blind basket and works i suppose it because of my distribution technique or grind setting.. anyways my wooden naked porta is arrived finally after more than a month lol.. like it..


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

KyNg said:


> Dave, sorry to ask again.. it happens i cant leave this machine for so long so yesterday i grab my machine to my mom in law house lol.. but today the bar pressure not getting to 10 but only 8.. then slowly decreasing.. is it because i drain the water from service boiler last time? Not sure.. or should i put a test on blind basket? Thanks again..


 Brew pressure does not have anything to do with the pressure on the service boiler. Did your shot run fast? If so, that's why. If you are worried, measure with a blind basket. It should hit 10 or thereabouts.


----------



## KyNg

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Brew pressure does not have anything to do with the pressure on the service boiler. Did your shot run fast? If so, that's why. If you are worried, measure with a blind basket. It should hit 10 or thereabouts.


 Ya i guess so.. will try to finer the grind tomorrow and see.. hha thankss


----------



## siliconslave

These bits turned up today so monitoring build begins, although its not going to be quick, got a lot of python etc to learn 

Aim is for an automatic shot timer and a phone alert that tells me when its warmed up, possibly even one that tells me i've forgotten to turn it off (which is usually achieved by the pump clearing the heat tube, or the wife, making a load of noise)


----------



## Doram

siliconslave said:


> possibly even one that tells me i've forgotten to turn it off


 Smart socket can easily deal with that (it will shut the machine off, rather than send an alert, which for me is even better). You set a max operation time and you're done (mine shuts off after an hour, but you can set it to whatever you want).


----------



## bpowell555

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Not sure where you read this, but the idea is that you never descale. If you keep feeding the machine water which won't scale, then there's no need to descale - ever. Try to avoid it, it's better that way.


 This says different


----------



## Mrboots2u

> 4 minutes ago, bpowell555 said:
> 
> This says different


 In what way , this shows you how to descale not telling you you should aim to


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

> 8 minutes ago, bpowell555 said:
> 
> This says different


 Prevention vs remedy... I know which one I go for.


----------



## robti

First use in the morning had around an hour preheat on a timer, blast a shot of steam to start then pour coffee then steam milk as the pressure has risen from around 0.5 up to around 1, 10 - 15 minutes later I repeat and come to steam pressure still at 0.5 and as I steam the pressure drops and the temperature light starts to flash and continues to flash till after I have finished, go back again for my third coffee and it works like the first time, this has happened a few times over the months since buying, any ideas ?

Thanks


----------



## steffanjtaylor

siliconslave said:


> These bits turned up today so monitoring build begins, although its not going to be quick, got a lot of python etc to learn
> 
> Aim is for an automatic shot timer and a phone alert that tells me when its warmed up, possibly even one that tells me i've forgotten to turn it off (which is usually achieved by the pump clearing the heat tube, or the wife, making a load of noise)
> 
> View attachment 47299


 This might be useful for your first aim (automatic show timer):
https://github.com/alexrus/marax_timer


----------



## KyNg

Still working on my chanelling shot.. after bought a naked porta can see now the problem of my sour shot.. i have use a bit of spray on rdt, toothpick for wdt, quick tap on table, leveling using 58 macaron, then tamp using lelit tamper.. using silenzio, 18 vst.. am i grind it too fine? Hmm..


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

KyNg said:


> Still working on my chanelling shot.. after bought a naked porta can see now the problem of my sour shot.. i have use a bit of spray on rdt, toothpick for wdt, quick tap on table, leveling using 58 macaron, then tamp using lelit tamper.. using silenzio, 18 vst.. am i grind it too fine? Hmm..


 Perfection comes with practice. 👍 - are you single dosing or hopper fed? If single dosing, try using the hopper instead.


----------



## KyNg

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Perfection comes with practice. 👍 - are you single dosing or hopper fed? If single dosing, try using the hopper instead.


 Single dose but i dont have anything like blower things, other people were using that i use my hopper than if its getting lower i just shut the hopper door.. quite work actually.. like only 0.1 retention..

I just try another shot purge some bean down from previous setting until completely gone.. grind new bean 18gr, collect it using a grinder cup like niche zero then wdt on the cup several time tap tap the cup for the raisin effect things crush the clump again more then finally put on porta wdt again using toothpick still wait for the 3d printing wdt from my friend lol.. tap tap again wdt again make sure everything ok then use cheap chinesse 58 leveler. Finally tamp using dave technique using lelit tamper hopefully no vacuum things like matt perg said. No polish. Carefully take out the tamper. And carefully put on gh.. finally no channeling.. espresso taste lot better but still havent found the sweetness.. but after take a look on the porta still see a very small hole on the edge.. will try again tomorrow.. wish me luck lol..


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

KyNg said:


> Single dose but i dont have anything like blower things, other people were using that i use my hopper than if its getting lower i just shut the hopper door.. quite work actually.. like only 0.1 retention..
> 
> I just try another shot purge some bean down from previous setting until completely gone.. grind new bean 18gr, collect it using a grinder cup like niche zero then wdt on the cup several time tap tap the cup for the raisin effect things crush the clump again more then finally put on porta wdt again using toothpick still wait for the 3d printing wdt from my friend lol.. tap tap again wdt again make sure everything ok then use cheap chinesse 58 leveler. Finally tamp using dave technique using lelit tamper hopefully no vacuum things like matt perg said. No polish. Carefully take out the tamper. And carefully put on gh.. finally no channeling.. espresso taste lot better but still havent found the sweetness.. but after take a look on the porta still see a very small hole on the edge.. will try again tomorrow.. wish me luck lol..


 Use the hopper at least half full. Let us know how that works out.


----------



## bpowell555

Mrboots2u said:


> In what way , this shows you how to descale not telling you you should aim to


 In the description below the video it says "must be performed annually". You may need to open in YouTube to view the description.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

bpowell555 said:


> In the description below the video it says "must be performed annually". You may need to open in YouTube to view the description.


 As said before, *if you use water which* *does not scale, *then there's no point in doing a descale annually, bi-annually or semiannually is there? Why remedy it if you can prevent it?

I get it if that's not what you are doing, and, if you want to descale your machine once a year, whether it's due to the water you use or just because it's written on the video, go ahead, no one is stopping you.

my kettle is full of limescale. The water over here is as hard as nails. But then again, I don't care about my kettle and, quite frankly, I can just open the lid , pour a solution of citric acid in it, wait a few hours and it's job done. Here are no vacum breakers, no rubber parts, no pipe connections, no hoses, no chrome plated parts, no small pipes, no restrictors, no solenoids, no taps. No pumps. It's quite straight forward. The coffee machine, on the other hand.... and that's why I'd rather it not to build up scale rather than having to deal with it. In the same way, I would not descale my kettle just for the sake of it if I needn't to.


----------



## KyNg

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Use the hopper at least half full. Let us know how that works out.


 Afraid the bean will lose it's freshness, no? I am using fellow atmos 0.4l for daily base and 1.2l to store most of beans..

This morning try again purge adjust grind setting a bit finer.. then hardcore distribute lol wdt in the cup this time using stainless steel egg whisk and cut it.. put on porta bla bla bla like last time wdt again level and tamp.. and the shot is perfect now no more hole.. tiger stripes and the taste almost excelent since i never get sweetness from espresso i dont know how that one taste but this one is thanks GOD finally good and bar temp is also great on 10.. previously always get down.. thanks guys.. hopefully it will be consistent on the next shot as well.. the naked porta really helps hha


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

KyNg said:


> Afraid the bean will lose it's freshness, no? I am using fellow atmos 0.4l for daily base and 1.2l to store most of beans..
> 
> This morning try again purge adjust grind setting a bit finer.. then hardcore distribute lol wdt in the cup this time using stainless steel egg whisk and cut it.. put on porta bla bla bla like last time wdt again level and tamp.. and the shot is perfect now no more hole.. tiger stripes and the taste almost excelent since i never get sweetness from espresso i dont know how that one taste but this one is thanks GOD finally good and bar temp is also great on 10.. previously always get down.. thanks guys.. hopefully it will be consistent on the next shot as well.. the naked porta really helps hha


 The Mignon is not a single dose grinder. You are not using the grinder as intended, therefore meeting its shortcomings. it's meant to be used with a hopper, at least half full. Try it, and see it makes it better. You'll find you'll need to grind coarser if compared to single dosing.


----------



## Zoltan

Hi everyone,

I will move to a new flat in a few days and would like to ask if there is preparing or precautions before I box my MaraX again? I mean should I empty the boiler for example?

Thanks

Zoltan


----------



## KyNg

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The Mignon is not a single dose grinder. You are not using the grinder as intended, therefore meeting its shortcomings. it's meant to be used with a hopper, at least half full. Try it, and see it makes it better. You'll find you'll need to grind coarser if compared to single dosing.


 Okay Noted will try tomorrow.. thanks a lot for the suggestion..


----------



## Garfield

PD2020 said:


> Excellent.
> 
> Pressure and temp sound fine. It's most likely going to be about the grind setting and ratio (It's not uncommon for 1:2 to be sour for medium roasts like this one).
> 
> Check once that when you lock in tamped coffee and take it out immediately, the puck is still nice and flat. I had an experience with Rave Chatswood Blend where 18g of it was too much for my 18g VST basket.
> 
> I imagine with Eureka Atom you have to purge when changing grind settings (not sure how much coffee needs to purged before the new setting becomes effective).
> 
> What @damo was doing in his/her Rave Signature Blend forum thread, I guess to minimise purging, was to pick a grinder setting and then try it at different yields. Then, if needed, change a grinder setting and trying your yields again.
> 
> Hope it works out.


 Hi @PD2020,

I brewed kilo of Rave Sig. Blend and without luck, to make - a even one good espresso. I opened it but decided to leave so that it is 14 days degassing. I don't know is this a problem, opened bag for a week. I discharged air and closed it and it was properly left.

3 months after buying machine I am struggling to make a good coffee. The funny thing is that I make better tasting turkish then espresso. So after spending 1500eur for machine and grinder I am totally disapointed and don't know what to do. Don't have time and nerves to fight with equipment, waiting for blends, waiting to degass and other struggles.

I managed to get to the point that it is not agressive sour taste but espresso is always sourish and never good/great. I noticed that I get best espresso with one bellarom blend that i bought in lidl supermarket. It is probably some darker blend which is easy to extract, so I thought that my equipment is ok, but probably it is not.

I tried everything, long yields and time on hotest setting, but cannot extract good espresso.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Garfield said:


> Hi @PD2020,
> 
> I brewed kilo of Rave Sig. Blend and without luck, to make - a even one good espresso. I opened it but decided to leave so that it is 14 days degassing. I don't know is this a problem, opened bag for a week. I discharged air and closed it and it was properly left.
> 
> 3 months after buying machine I am struggling to make a good coffee. The funny thing is that I make better tasting turkish then espresso. So after spending 1500eur for machine and grinder I am totally disapointed and don't know what to do. Don't have time and nerves to fight with equipment, waiting for blends, waiting to degass and other struggles.
> 
> I managed to get to the point that it is not agressive sour taste but espresso is always sourish and never good/great. I noticed that I get best espresso with one bellarom blend that i bought in lidl supermarket. It is probably some darker blend which is easy to extract, so I thought that my equipment is ok, but probably it is not.
> 
> I tried everything, long yields and time on hotest setting, but cannot extract good espresso.


 @Garfield - this is crazy. 😞 - Remind me, have you tried using the machine in steam priority mode? That will get very hot. I think, if I recall correctly, that you have shared a video where it shows you purging water from the group head. Is that like boiling water? Have you tried measuring the temperature of the water coming out of the group?

Some people install a group thermometer. Have you tried that? Or maybe just a very cheap temp strip? Stick one to the group - it won't damage the chrome, and see what you get? I bought one on eBay for like £3 and had on my La Pavoni. Worth checking that. If the reading is around 90C to 95C, then it might be your tastebuds I'm afraid. (ps: I'm not 100% sure what the difference of temperature is "on the metal" if compared to the actual water inside the group when measured with a group thermometer.

This is the one I bought: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digitemp-7-Level-Horizontal-Dual-Scale-90-C-to-120-C-Thermometer-strip-sticker-/231458660166?hash=item35e402df46


----------



## MWJB

Garfield said:


> I tried everything, long yields and time on hotest setting, but cannot extract good espresso.


 Post in the Barista Skills forum, post the parameters of your last shot(s) & a video of your prep.

I appreciate that this is frustrating, but step back. Look at it objectively...you most likely have not tried "everything". If you indeed have tried everything and nothing has worked, then espresso is impossible to make...this is known to be untrue.

Might be interesting to hear your Turkish method too, to give an idea of a datum regarding a 'good' cup.

Don't get disheartened, there is still a real possibility better cups will come.


----------



## PD2020

Garfield said:


> Hi @PD2020,
> 
> I brewed kilo of Rave Sig. Blend and without luck, to make - a even one good espresso. I opened it but decided to leave so that it is 14 days degassing. I don't know is this a problem, opened bag for a week. I discharged air and closed it and it was properly left.
> 
> 3 months after buying machine I am struggling to make a good coffee. The funny thing is that I make better tasting turkish then espresso. So after spending 1500eur for machine and grinder I am totally disapointed and don't know what to do. Don't have time and nerves to fight with equipment, waiting for blends, waiting to degass and other struggles.
> 
> I managed to get to the point that it is not agressive sour taste but espresso is always sourish and never good/great. I noticed that I get best espresso with one bellarom blend that i bought in lidl supermarket. It is probably some darker blend which is easy to extract, so I thought that my equipment is ok, but probably it is not.
> 
> I tried everything, long yields and time on hotest setting, but cannot extract good espresso.


 Sorry to hear that, @Garfield For me I haven't had much luck producing drinkable espresso in the 1:2 - 1:3 brew ratio range yet. I've had some nice shots at 1:5 at least (Crankhouse Carmen Decaf).

I've never tried Rave Signature Blend but I have recently ordered Rave Chatswood blend and Rave Seasonal Decaf. The first one felt ashy and bitter, I haven't got absolutely any of the chocolate notes yet. And the decaf was sour even at 1:5. Oh, I would love to try these coffees made by somebody else though!

I've gone through 15-20kg of coffee since I bought the machine at the end of June. I think that's even more than you have tried. So far the only one coffee that I found easy to extract was - https://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/deaf-colombia-la-chorrera?variant=14997579333667 (18g in, 41.5g out, temp medium 93-94*C, dripping time 24s, total shot time probably around 34s). It's a decaf, very enjoyable as pure espresso without any sourness, bitterness, harshness, dryness etc. And it's healthier for practicing due to the lack of caffeine. Not sure how expensive the international delivery is in your case, but it would be super interesting to know whether it also works for you.

I'm still not giving up. It can be frustrating, yes, but bloody hell, at least I am forced to learn a lot 😉

By the way, I've just noticed that they have started selling a caffeinated coffee from the same farm, but I can't recommend it because I haven't tried it yet (https://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/colombia-la-chorrera-w-caturra?_pos=2&_sid=882f95c3f&_ss=r)


----------



## Garfield

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @Garfield - this is crazy. 😞 - Remind me, have you tried using the machine in steam priority mode? That will get very hot. I think, if I recall correctly, that you have shared a video where it shows you purging water from the group head. Is that like boiling water? Have you tried measuring the temperature of the water coming out of the group?
> 
> Some people install a group thermometer. Have you tried that? Or maybe just a very cheap temp strip? Stick one to the group - it won't damage the chrome, and see what you get? I bought one on eBay for like £3 and had on my La Pavoni. Worth checking that. If the reading is around 90C to 95C, then it might be your tastebuds I'm afraid. (ps: I'm not 100% sure what the difference of temperature is "on the metal" if compared to the actual water inside the group when measured with a group thermometer.
> 
> This is the one I bought: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digitemp-7-Level-Horizontal-Dual-Scale-90-C-to-120-C-Thermometer-strip-sticker-/231458660166?hash=item35e402df46


 Yes, i tried it in steam mode also but still did not get any great espresso. Everbody who tried it, thinks the same, nothing special. Always sourish, sometimes more, sometimes less.

I connected pc to the machine, recorded temperature log during the shot. Even Lelit insider showed it on their youtube channel. From this output temperature should be ok acording to them.






I don't know, maybe I will ask one local service 300km away if they have scace and send the machine and grinder to try to test, brew and extract.


----------



## Zoltan

> 24 minutes ago, Garfield said:
> 
> Yes, i tried it in steam mode also but still did not get any great espresso. Everbody who tried it, thinks the same, nothing special. Always sourish, sometimes more, sometimes less.
> 
> I connected pc to the machine, recorded temperature log during the shot. Even Lelit insider showed it on their youtube channel. From this output temperature should be ok acording to them.


 Hey,

Just few questions:

•When do you pull the first shot? Means: when the light stop flashing and says it's ready to use, my machine is still around 87-88 degrees according the group head thermometer. My one is ready after 22-28 mins depends on the kitchen's temperature. If I'm not using when it's at the right temperature then I wait half an hour more. Or 20mins. Again, I installed a group thermometer.

•what water do you use? I (almost) always use Volvic but sometimes run out and must use Brita filtered tap water. Taste difference is well noticeable.

•Do you drink your espresso straight after pulling a shot? Depends on the bean what I use but sometimes I wait one or couple of mins before drink it. For example at the moment I drink Guji Grade 1 and i feel it tastes better after some rest/cooling time. But when I've drunk an other one, a Mexican, I preferred to drink it straight after pulling it. Maybe your taste doesn't appreciate the hot temperature.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

> 19 minutes ago, Garfield said:
> 
> Yes, i tried it in steam mode also but still did not get any great espresso. Everbody who tried it, thinks the same, nothing special. Always sourish, sometimes more, sometimes less.
> 
> I connected pc to the machine, recorded temperature log during the shot. Even Lelit insider showed it on their youtube channel. From this output temperature should be ok acording to them.


----------



## MWJB

Garfield said:


> Yes, i tried it in steam mode also but still did not get any great espresso. Everbody who tried it, thinks the same, nothing special. Always sourish, sometimes more, sometimes less.
> 
> I connected pc to the machine, recorded temperature log during the shot. Even Lelit insider showed it on their youtube channel. From this output temperature should be ok acording to them.
> 
> I don't know, maybe I will ask one local service 300km away if they have scace and send the machine and grinder to try to test, brew and extract.


 Your shot was 1:3 but took 40s, I don't like to read too much into shot time, but it seems odd your 1:3 shot takes more time than a 1:2 shot?

What grinder & setting do you have?


----------



## KyNg

> 1 hour ago, Garfield said:
> 
> Yes, i tried it in steam mode also but still did not get any great espresso. Everbody who tried it, thinks the same, nothing special. Always sourish, sometimes more, sometimes less.
> 
> I connected pc to the machine, recorded temperature log during the shot. Even Lelit insider showed it on their youtube channel. From this output temperature should be ok acording to them.


 If you have a naked porta you can take a look first if the puck is good or there's some channel or micro channel.. happens to me then i do a hardcore distribution, leveling, tamp carefully now my espresso is way better if i dont buy the naked porta i wont know that my technique is so bad.. before change grinder setting make sure to purge it down as well.. my 2 cents hha also newbie.. hope thats will help..


----------



## KyNg

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The Mignon is not a single dose grinder. You are not using the grinder as intended, therefore meeting its shortcomings. it's meant to be used with a hopper, at least half full. Try it, and see it makes it better. You'll find you'll need to grind coarser if compared to single dosing.


 Today i use it the way it should be.. fill the hopper by half.. and it getting better more consistent maybe.. another tiger stripes with a nice tastes.. thanks for the suggestion..


----------



## Garfield

MWJB said:


> Your shot was 1:3 but took 40s, I don't like to read too much into shot time, but it seems odd your 1:3 shot takes more time than a 1:2 shot?
> 
> What grinder & setting do you have?


 This one is an old video that I recorded on beginning of investigation. I have Eureka Atom 60 and it was set mostly on 3.5.


----------



## Garfield

Zoltan said:


> Hey,
> 
> Just few questions:
> 
> •When do you pull the first shot? Means: when the light stop flashing and says it's ready to use, my machine is still around 87-88 degrees according the group head thermometer. My one is ready after 22-28 mins depends on the kitchen's temperature. If I'm not using when it's at the right temperature then I wait half an hour more. Or 20mins. Again, I installed a group thermometer.
> 
> •what water do you use? I (almost) always use Volvic but sometimes run out and must use Brita filtered tap water. Taste difference is well noticeable.
> 
> •Do you drink your espresso straight after pulling a shot? Depends on the bean what I use but sometimes I wait one or couple of mins before drink it. For example at the moment I drink Guji Grade 1 and i feel it tastes better after some rest/cooling time. But when I've drunk an other one, a Mexican, I preferred to drink it straight after pulling it. Maybe your taste doesn't appreciate the hot temperature.


 Hi Zoltan,

I leave machine for a long time so that it heats enough.

I used 4 different water. I don't have Volvic around so I tried with different bottled water and resin filter that came with Marax.

I leave the espresso for a few minutes, sometimes longer. To be able to better detect taste when it cools a little bit.


----------



## MWJB

Garfield said:


> This one is an old video that I recorded on beginning of investigation. I have Eureka Atom 60 and it was set mostly on 3.5.


 OK, so what are you doing currently?


----------



## Garfield

MWJB said:


> OK, so what are you doing currently?


 Currently I don't have a fresh coffee to experiment and have a plan to first send the machine to one local service to check if everything is ok.


----------



## Garfield

Garfield said:


> Currently I don't have a fresh coffee to experiment and have a plan to first send the machine to one local service to check if everything is ok.


 I watched on video where machine was tested with scace and flaws are possible.

If you watch from 4:20 this guys got machine with wrong offset programmed. I will send a grinder too and ask them to try to brew espresso.


----------



## PD2020

Hi @GarfieldI watched this video some time ago. Just be aware that they made incorrect comments about the temperature in the video and then corrected in their blog post about MaraX:



> Entweder ist hier der Offset der Maschine falsch eingestellt und dadurch sind alle Temperaturen zu hoch. Wahrscheinlicher ist aber, dass wir durch unsere gewöhnte Ablauf-Routine die Maschine verwirrt haben. Darauf weist auch Dave Corbey in einem sehr guten Testbericht über die Maschine hin.


 Source: https://kaffeemacher.ch/lelit-mara-x/

Basically they initially thought the temperature was too high because their workflow was not adequate for MaraX (not sure what exactly they did, but I imagine pulling back-to-back shots with 7 minutes gaps in between would be one example of what not to do).


----------



## Doram

Can I remove the in-tank loop if I don't use the water filter, or does it have other functions as well?

Cleaning the tank today, I noticed the black plastic part that holds the loop had some residue on it. It felt a little jelly-like, as something leached out of the plastic or reacted with the water. It's not a big deal, I cleaned it and it seems fine, but I was wondering if the loop actually does anything other than serve the in-tank water filter? If I don't use a filter, can I remove this part and use the tank without it?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> Can I remove the in-tank loop if I don't use the water filter, or does it have other functions as well?
> 
> Cleaning the tank today, I noticed the black plastic part that holds the loop had some residue on it. It felt a little jelly-like, as something leached out of the plastic or reacted with the water. It's not a big deal, I cleaned it and it seems fine, but I was wondering if the loop actually does anything other than serve the in-tank water filter? If I don't use a filter, can I remove this part and use the tank without it?
> 
> View attachment 47570


 you mean like... slimy-like? I get the same. I think this is due to water sitting in the tank in contact with the silicone hoses - I don't think the silicone in contact with water is bad, it's just where I notice it the most, maybe because it is so smooth and sleek). Shows the importance of cleaning and washing the tank periodically!


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> you mean like... slimy-like?


 Yes! This is exactly what I mean - slimy-like - that is the description I was missing, thank you!

It certainly shows why the tank should be cleaned (saw some other 'stuff' in the water, and don't even want to think about the things that I can't see... I used a Milton sanitation tablet for good measure as well, so hopefully it's clean now).

Anyhow, if the whole plastic holder and tube loop isn't doing anything other than serve the filter (and collect slimy-like stuff), and I don't use the filter, I would prefer to remove it. Perhaps @DavecUKcan confirm if this can be safely removed (and maybe tell us what this slimy stuff is)?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> Yes! This is exactly what I mean - slimy-like - that is the description I was missing, thank you!
> 
> It certainly shows why the tank should be cleaned (saw some other 'stuff' in the water, and don't even want to think about the things that I can't see... I used a Milton sanitation tablet for good measure as well, so hopefully it's clean now).
> 
> Anyhow, if the whole plastic holder and tube loop isn't doing anything other than serve the filter (and collect slimy-like stuff), and I don't use the filter, I would prefer to remove it. Perhaps @DavecUKcan confirm if this can be safely removed (and maybe tell us what this slimy stuff is)?


 You don't need it. On the Elizabeth, there's a less elegant solution, where the resign filter or the gauze is just attached to the end of the hose. It has a hose from the pump directly to the top of the tank, so not as fancy as the Elizabeth.

That assembly is simply allowing you to have the water going through the gauze - or the resign filter - prior to going inside the machine. If you are confident your water is totally free of any small particles which could block the pump or other parts - then you should be able to just remove that assembly all together.

EDIT: @Doram - Providing that assembly doesn't prevent the water going into the machine - I don't think it does - but best to double check it - then you don't need it.


----------



## DavecUK

Doram said:


> Yes! This is exactly what I mean - slimy-like - that is the description I was missing, thank you!
> 
> It certainly shows why the tank should be cleaned (saw some other 'stuff' in the water, and don't even want to think about the things that I can't see... I used a Milton sanitation tablet for good measure as well, so hopefully it's clean now).
> 
> Anyhow, if the whole plastic holder and tube loop isn't doing anything other than serve the filter (and collect slimy-like stuff), and I don't use the filter, I would prefer to remove it. Perhaps @DavecUKcan confirm if this can be safely removed (and maybe tell us what this slimy stuff is)?


 I don't know how often people clean their internal tanks, I try to clean mine every week. If you don't, they can look clean but get the slimy build up. There are situations and things we do that make this worse/happen faster.



Using any kind of filter, Brita, inline tap, RO etc.. that removes chlorine, or bottled water.


The longer the water stays in the tank the more chlorine leaves it and faster if it gets warm


Filling the tank completely, rather than just enough for the day


Cleaning the tank and tubes infrequently, I do mine weekly


I used to use Milton tablets to clean the tank, my sponges, my knockbox, My RO system supply tank etc.. Milton creates a hypochlorite solution...which is far better to use than bleach, but I am sure you knew that. On my Birthday I got a Hypochlorite generator, uses salt/water and electricity to make what is effectively strong Milton solution. I fill a spray bottle and use that to clean my stuff. I use a spray because it's easy to spray the empty tank and fittings inside (tubes etc..) without any fear the pump will run and suck it into the boilers. Leave it 5 mins, rinse and you're done, same with knock boxes sponges etc.. Spraying the surface is better, uses less solution and is just as effective if left for the proper time.

I was going to do a morning coffee video on how I do it, but events have rather overtaken me recently, so I have not had time.

https://www.southernwater.co.uk/help-advice/drinking-water-quality/chlorine-in-water

You can safely remove all the plastic gubbins if you don't want to use the filter


----------



## Doram

DavecUK said:


> I don't know how often people clean their internal tanks, I try to clean mine every week. If you don't, they can look clean but get the slimy build up. There are situations and things we do that make this worse/happen faster.
> 
> 
> 
> Using any kind of filter, Brita, inline tap, RO etc.. that removes chlorine, or bottled water.
> 
> 
> The longer the water stays in the tank the more chlorine leaves it and faster if it gets warm
> 
> 
> Filling the tank completely, rather than just enough for the day
> 
> 
> Cleaning the tank and tubes infrequently, I do mine weekly
> 
> 
> You can safely remove all the plastic gubbins if you don't want to use the filter


 Many thanks for this very helpful reply! I was certainly one of the non-cleaning offenders (would have probably not bothered for god-knows how long more if it weren't for your previous messages saying the tank needs cleaning). I promise to add this to the cleaning regime, especially after having a close look at what goes on inside!

Any idea what the slimy stuff on the black plastic is (not sure I want to know, lol, but still)?


----------



## PD2020

DavecUK said:


> Cleaning the tank and tubes infrequently, I do mine weekly


 Hi Dave. Which tubes (plural spotted) are you cleaning weekly?


----------



## DavecUK

PD2020 said:


> Hi Dave. Which tubes (plural spotted) are you cleaning weekly?


 Some of my machines have multiple tubes, some have a system like MaraX

e.g. Minima has 3 tubes, expansion valve return, water level sensor, pump intake.

P.S. If a machine is not in service the tank needs cleaning before you bring it into service, even though it should be empty.


----------



## DavecUK

Doram said:


> Any idea what the slimy stuff on the black plastic is (not sure I want to know, lol, but still)?


 basically Algal slimes, sometimes thin layers of bacteria...not nice


----------



## Doram

DavecUK said:


> basically Algal slimes, sometimes thin layers of bacteria...not nice


 Ooooh, sounds lovely - some free protein. 🤮

Thank you very much!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> Ooooh, sounds lovely - some free protein. 🤮
> 
> Thank you very much!


 Exactly! It even gets cooked for you! (inside the boilers!)


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Exactly! It even gets cooked for you! (inside the boilers!)


 Actually that is a good point I should have made...even though the tank may really suck for cleanliness...what comes out of the machine may be safe....although there may be certain caveats and situations where it won't be. I'm not going to go into sterilisation temperatures and times because opinions and conditions vary by application. That's for owners to decide...just keep the tank clean


----------



## Jason11

I have never removed my supply tank since doing it a couple of times when I first got the machine early July as I fill it in position. After reading the last few posts this is going to change this weekend!


----------



## Doram

DavecUK said:


> Actually that is a good point I should have made...even though the tank may really suck for cleanliness...what comes out of the machine may be safe....although there may be certain caveats and situations where it won't be. I'm not going to go into sterilisation temperatures and times because opinions and conditions vary by application. That's for owners to decide...just keep the tank clean


 So not a good idea to put some raw meat in the tank for dinner? I thought that it would be nice to conserve energy and use the Mara to make some curry.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> So not a good idea to put some raw meat in the tank for dinner?


 Googles "suvet cooking" 😂


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> Actually that is a good point I should have made...even though the tank may really suck for cleanliness...what comes out of the machine may be safe...


 This is one of the reasons I quite liked the La Pavoni: The tank* is *the boiler, so I didn't have any of these issues. Copper boiler at approx. 120C twice or 3 times a day 🙂 - It would defo kill anything!


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Googles "suvet cooking" 😂


 Do you mean Sous Vide cooking? I do that too, but up till now used a different container. Now that we have established it is safe to do it in the coffee machine, I might go that route. Why not benefit from the non-cleaning regime of the tank?


----------



## DavecUK

Jason11 said:


> I have never removed my supply tank since doing it a couple of times when I first got the machine early July as I fill it in position. After reading the last few posts this is going to change this weekend!


 God, no please let it not be true...4 months!!!

.....please don't tell me you have the same filter in the tank as well...please no.... 😲


----------



## PD2020

DavecUK said:


> You can safely remove all the plastic gubbins if you don't want to use the filter


 To make it super clear for all of us newbies out there... Given the water filter is not used, is it safe to remove both the in-tank tube and the black plastic bit? Or just the black plastic bit?


----------



## L2en

DavecUK said:


> God, no please let it not be true...4 months!!!
> 
> .....please don't tell me you have the same filter in the tank as well...please no.... 😲


 Actually I think most people do not clean the tank very often. When I got my Silvia, it was 4 years old, the tank was very grimey and I contacted the seller to ask what he used for cleaning. He told me he has never (in 4!!! years) cleaned it. I clean it at least once a week. And the MaraX has such a nice and practical tank.


----------



## DavecUK

PD2020 said:


> To make it super clear for all of us newbies out there... Given the water filter is not used, is it safe to remove both the in-tank tube and the black plastic bit? Or just the black plastic bit?


 Yes you can remove it all.


----------



## Jason11

DavecUK said:


> God, no please let it not be true...4 months!!!
> 
> .....please don't tell me you have the same filter in the tank as well...please no.... 😲


 Afraid it is true but I don't use the filter as I'm using Osmio water in it. I'll be removing the filter plumbing and giving it a good clean this weekend for sure! 👍🏻


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Jason11 said:


> Afraid it is true but I don't use the filter as I'm using Osmio water in it. I'll be removing the filter plumbing and giving it a good clean this weekend for sure! 👍🏻


 Now I know why that coffee tasted "c**p" Jason! - I didn't want to say anything! 🤣😂


----------



## Jason11

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Now I know why that coffee tasted "c**p" Jason! - I didn't want to say anything! 🤣😂


 Nothing to do with the supply tank Alberto that's just the way I make coffee 🤣


----------



## itguy

Picked up my new machine today - a MaraX!

Seems to be working as expected so far, looking forward to the next few days when I can really give it a good try.

I do have some ECM joysticks which I may well replace the standard control knobs for as I find them easier to use, but i will give it a try as standard to start with.

I must say I am incredibly impressed with how quiet the machine is. I had an Izzo Alex 3 with rotary pub and this is not much louder than that. The expobar dual boiler I had with vibe pump was very loud in comparison!


----------



## itguy

A quick question - I have the machine in brew temperature mode. Obviously this means the machine will boost the boiler pressure after I pull a shot. If I am dialling in or pulling a few espressos in a row, how long should I be leaving it between shots or am I just good to keep going? (in terms of temp stability at the E61)

Thanks


----------



## DavecUK

itguy said:


> A quick question - I have the machine in brew temperature mode. Obviously this means the machine will boost the boiler pressure after I pull a shot. If I am dialling in or pulling a few espressos in a row, how long should I be leaving it between shots or am I just good to keep going? (in terms of temp stability at the E61)
> 
> Thanks


 It's in my review here is a link to the relevant part. Basically once the shot has stopped start timing before the next shot. It's about the time you need to knock out the puck, brush it clean, grind 17 or 18g in the niche, prep and tamp. By the time you are ready to go you only have to wait perhaps 15 more seconds.

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/lelit-marax-review-in-progress/#specific-temps


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> A quick question - I have the machine in brew temperature mode. Obviously this means the machine will boost the boiler pressure after I pull a shot. If I am dialling in or pulling a few espressos in a row, how long should I be leaving it between shots or am I just good to keep going? (in terms of temp stability at the E61)
> 
> Thanks


 Dave got there before me. But in summary, is written in his review: https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/lelit-marax-review-in-progress/



> *
> Does brew temperature priority work in the real world?
> *
> 
> *Yes, it works really well*, as long as you don't do things that work against the programming (commonly known as user error). If you are used to other machines you may have developed some habits out of necessity, these you may have to break.
> 
> 
> 
> Walk up and pull the shot (*don't flush, you don't need to*)
> 
> 
> Carry on steaming and pulling shots (try and leave 90s to 2 min between shots), usually it takes this long to empty the portafilter, refill, tamp, place cup etc..
> 
> 
> *Don't flush clean the group in between a series of shots*, only after you make the last shot in a group of shots
> 
> 
> *If you do leave more than 5 minutes between shots&#8230;let the system cool down and stabilise again e.g. come back after 15 minutes.*


----------



## itguy

Fantastic, thanks both. Basically it sounds like as long as I am not super speedy (I'm not!) then I can not worry about it.

My initial observations of the steaming is that it is v good too. Very impressed so far!


----------



## KyNg

15g vst or 20g vst?.. want to add the basket but in dilemma of which one.. 20g is it too much?


----------



## Jason11

KyNg said:


> 15g vst or 20g vst?.. want to add the basket but in dilemma of which one.. 20g is it too much?


Only you can really answer that one.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

KyNg said:


> 15g vst or 20g vst?.. want to add the basket but in dilemma of which one.. 20g is it too much?


 18g.


----------



## Jason11

MediumRoastSteam said:


> 18g.


I didn't see that as one of the options.


----------



## itguy

Out of interest, are MaraX owners generally timing shots from 'lever up' or first drop?

I ask just because there are so many discussions with shot times in and the difference between these two is 10s or more!


----------



## Jason11

itguy said:


> Out of interest, are MaraX owners generally timing shots from 'lever up' or first drop?
> 
> I ask just because there are so many discussions with shot times in and the difference between these two is 10s or more!


Start the timer from when you raise the lever.


----------



## Doram

Jason11 said:


> itguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Out of interest, are MaraX owners generally timing shots from 'lever up' or first drop?
> 
> I ask just because there are so many discussions with shot times in and the difference between these two is 10s or more!
> 
> 
> 
> Start the timer from when you raise the lever.
Click to expand...

 ... But aim for longer times 🙂 (So instead of a 25 sec shot on a machine with no pre-infusion, you get a ~35 sec shot on the Mara). Standard times are therefore 35-4o seconds from when you raise the lever, with longer shots also possible with certain beans and recipes. A 25 second shot from when raising the lever would generally be too fast and not great.


----------



## itguy

Perfect, thanks both. I'm so conditioned to my old Izzo Alex and Expobar DB (using the 25-30s rule of thumb) that I feel a bit lost on this new machine. I haven't had it 24hrs yet but the amount of caffeine I've drunk means I'll still be up and awake in another 24!!


----------



## Doram

KyNg said:


> 15g vst or 20g vst?.. want to add the basket but in dilemma of which one.. 20g is it too much?


 It depends who you ask and what you want to do with the coffee (if you drink your flat whites in a bucket you might want more yield than in a small cup; If you split your shots it a different story again). Also remember that bigger baskets mean more coffee used per shot, more caffeine intake per shot etc. Might also be harder to get good extraction from a big basket, but some say bigger doses are more forgiving. It also depends on the roasts you prefer - lighter roasts often go with bigger doses, and darker with smaller doses.

For me 20g would be far too much. I have 15g and 18g baskets (+ a 21g one that came with the machine and lives in the garage). I mostly use the 15g one (currently with 16g doses), so between the two sizes you asked about I prefer the 15g.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Jason11 said:


> I didn't see that as one of the options.


 You need to read in between the lines... 15 + 20 = 35 / 2= 17.5 (always round up) = 18. Simples. ????


----------



## PD2020

Doram said:


> It also depends on the roasts you prefer - lighter roasts often go with bigger doses, and darker with smaller doses.


 I always see a range of opinions on this subject 😉





 (5:53) - J. Hoffman saying that lighter roasts prefer lower dose





 (1:56) - "light roasted coffees you probably want to start with a lower dose, dark roasted coffees I lean towards a higher dose, and it's to do with how easy they are to extract"

https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/espresso-recipes-analyzing-dose/ - Barista Hustle saying "A larger dose can make more espresso, and a lower dose can make less. It's as simple as that" (i.e. dose doesn't impact the flavour)

https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/what-effect-does-bed-depth-have-when-increasing-your-dose-to-make-more-espresso/ - ... but actually it totally does...

Yours  - "lighter roasts often go with bigger doses, and darker with smaller doses."

I can almost hear the coffeegods' roaring anger. Just not sure why they're letting it all out on my coffee 😉


----------



## Doram

PD2020 said:


> I always see a range of opinions on this subject 😉


 I might have gotten this the other way around. If it's my opinion vs. James Hoffmann's then I would lean towards going with his. 😉

It does seem that third wave and hipster trends go for a) lighter roasts; and b) bigger doses (corresponding with the sentiment that Italians don't know anything about coffee with their dark roasts and pathetic 14g doses). From this I concluded that light roasts go with bigger doses, but if I am wrong - I profoundly apologise.

Being an old fashioned newb that knows very little about coffee, I enjoy darker roasts and smaller doses (which I guess goes with the fact that I tend to love everything Italian).


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> I might have gotten this the other way around. If it's my opinion vs. James Hoffmann's then I would lean towards going with his. 😉
> 
> It does seem that third wave and hipster trends go for a) lighter roasts; and b) bigger doses (corresponding with the sentiment that Italians don't know anything about coffee with their dark roasts and pathetic 14g doses). From this I concluded that light roasts go with bigger doses, but if I am wrong - I profoundly apologise.
> 
> Being an old fashioned newb that knows very little about coffee, I enjoy darker roasts and smaller doses (which I guess goes with the fact that I tend to love everything Italian).


 Fun fact:

- I like light roasts and use a VST 18g basket. 
- I'm definitely NOT a hipster;
- I have northern Italian heritage on both sides of my family.
- I clean my Moka Pot with PulyCaf periodically. (what???)
- I don't believe in coffee oils seasoning coffee equipment. (what??????? - I might now be barred from entering that country all together). 🤣

On a serious note: I do think that, like many other things in life... There's evolution. And coffee making has evolved from grinding beans with pestle and mortar and pouring hot water on top, to drinking coffee at the Lloyds Coffee Houses in London, to the so called "traditional" Italian coffee to now the so called third wave. It's a matter of taste, and, equipment is developed to follow that fashion/trend. For sure, like many of these things, it will come back on itself to an extent. Light roasts will fall out of vogue and the more traditional roasts will come back in the same way. And more importantly, just because someone says that "generally, lower dose for this and higher dose for that, conical this and flat that", pressure this and pre-infusion that...

Best thing is to, if you can, experiment and try it, make use of your equipment and have fun with this hobby. I recently bought some coffee I used to swear by, just to find out my tastebuds changed in preference for much lighter roasts. And I that's ok, in the same way that some of us prefer darker roasts. I really don't think there's right or wrong, or a better dose for this or better basket for that. After all, taste is subjective, and what someone likes might not be what someone else likes.

Just my two cents.


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I really don't think there's right or wrong, or a better dose for this or better basket for that. After all, taste is subjective, and what someone likes might not be what someone else likes.


 Couldn't agree more, thank you. This is exactly what I meant: @KyNg asked whether to get a 15g or 20g basket, and I was trying to say: 1) there isn't a right answer to that question; 2) Personally I would get the 15g.

Oh, and P.S. in case it wasn't clear: I didn't mean to call you (or anyone who likes light roasts and/or larger doses for that matter) a hipster. I just meant that current trends seem to favour those. I did mean that I tend to love everything Italian, and now that I have heard you have Italian roots (should have realised before going by your name) - I love you even more! 😂


----------



## Andrewczy

Doram said:


> ... But aim for longer times 🙂 (So instead of a 25 sec shot on a machine with no pre-infusion, you get a ~35 sec shot on the Mara). Standard times are therefore 35-4o seconds from when you raise the lever, with longer shots also possible with certain beans and recipes. A 25 second shot from when raising the lever would generally be too fast and not great.


 Yeap similar to the above. I find that my first drop usually hits around 12 sec mark, and my total time for lighter roasts can sometimes reach 50 secs or so.

Has anyone here added one of the flow profile kits to their machine yet? would like to know if its a worthwhile investment


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> Oh, and P.S. in case it wasn't clear: I didn't mean to call you (or anyone who likes light roasts and/or larger doses for that matter) a hipster.


 Now you said... 😂😂 - I didn't noticed you called me a hipster! 🤣 And even if you had, it doesn't bother me, honestly. I simply don't care don't get offended, certainly not by that! All good! 👍


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Now you said... 😂😂 - I didn't noticed you called me a hipster! 🤣 And even if you had, it doesn't bother me, honestly. I simply don't care don't get offended, certainly not by that! All good! 👍


 Alberto is definitely not a hipster....😆


----------



## Doram

DavecUK said:


> Alberto is definitely not a hipster....😆


 Well, HE started it:



MediumRoastSteam said:


> - I'm definitely NOT a hipster;


 😉


----------



## Jason11

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Now you said...  - I didn't noticed you called me a hipster!  And even if you had, it doesn't bother me, honestly. I simply don't care don't get offended, certainly not by that! All good!


Nothing wrong with being a hipster!


----------



## Francesco1990

Hi, is worth the money to buy this machine (the X) or should i buy the PL62W version (found the last one for 200 euros less) ??

thanks a lot


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Francesco1990 said:


> Hi, is worth the money to buy this machine (the X) or should i buy the PL62W version (found the last one for 200 euros less) ??
> 
> thanks a lot


 Welcome to the forum. Question: do you understand the main differences, in terms of functionality, between the two machines?


----------



## Doram

Francesco1990 said:


> Hi, is worth the money to buy this machine (the X) or should i buy the PL62W version (found the last one for 200 euros less) ??


 PL62W is the old model, now replaced with the Mara X. The old model is a standard HX machine, so requires cooling flushes before brewing to lower the temperature. The X has a brew priority mode that regulates the brewing temperature (you can choose between 3 levels to suit the coffee you are using), so you have better control of the temperature without cooling flushes. The new model also has a quieter pump, different drip tray (better, IMO, as it is less prone to scratches) and possibly other differences as well. Before buying any of these machines, it is recommended to read @DavecUK reviews, where you will learn everything you need to know:

Mara X: https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/lelit-marax-review-in-progress/

The old models of Mara: https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2017/11/20/lelit-mara-pl62s/

Whether getting the old model is worth the saving is a personal question. I wouldn't want to get the old model now that the new one exists, because IMO it would be missing out on significant advancements. Also consider that the Mara X is very popular because of these improvements. It is currently unique in the market and will probably hold its value better if you want to sell it, while the old model might be harder to move on.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@Doram - spot on write up. Was going to do something similar, but decided to keep it short and asking the member, on a first post, whether the basics were researched first. 👍


----------



## Sebinho9

Just wanted to thank everyone on this forum for their input into this topic. When I first went in search of my first "proper" coffee machine (having made the graduation from Nespresso, to pour over, to moka) I found the Bella Barista site, found @DavecUK's review and decided it was the front runner. So thanks Dave for such an in depth review and tips and also to the members of this forum for covering almost all of the questions I have had.

I am now the proud owner of a Mara X and so far it is fantastic. A lot of spilt grounds from a couple of fumbled portafilters and lots of skills to master but it's great fun. I had no idea how heavy (or hot!) the machine would be. It's a proper piece of kit. The coffee is most appreciated with a newborn in the house.

I was also pleased to be able to pick it up in person from Bella Barista, which is just down the road. I had no idea my home town was also home to the UK's leading coffee machine importer. Once we moved back up a month ago I knew I had to pull the trigger. Just a shame I couldn't browse or get an explainer because of lockdown, though David says I can come by anytime (congrats to him on his newborn as well!).

I'll end with a question - any tips for a naked portafilter? As I'm learning it might be quite helpful to see the extraction.

Cheers


----------



## DavecUK

Sebinho9 said:


> I'll end with a question - any tips for a naked portafilter? As I'm learning it might be quite helpful to see the extraction.
> 
> Cheers


 Glad your liking the machine and my review was useful in making your decision. Do you have a naked portafilter....or are you asking to see a video of a naked extraction...if it's the latter:


----------



## Sebinho9

DavecUK said:


> Glad your liking the machine and my review was useful in making your decision. Do you have a naked portafilter....or are you asking to see a video of a naked extraction...if it's the latter:


 Sorry @DaveCUK I should have been clearer - I'm after one as I gather Lelit don't make one for the MaraX. I searched this topic but there wasn't really a consensus on which one to get. I will watch the videos though! Thanks


----------



## kico

Sebinho9 said:


> Sorry @DaveCUK I should have been clearer - I'm after one as I gather Lelit don't make one for the MaraX. I searched this topic but there wasn't really a consensus on which one to get. I will watch the videos though! Thanks


 This is the Lelit official one - fits 22g VST baskets too!

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B082BPRJFP/

You can also find the walnut handle one here - https://smile.amazon.co.uk/LELIT-LELIT58-Bottomless-Filterholder-Walnut/dp/B082BQQXYY/

I personally prefer the black / silver theme, but you can change the control knobs of the MaraX to walnut with the bianca kit.

I would recommend pairing it with a IMS 200 competition portafilter, and 18G VST Basket (to start).

What grinder / scale did you get to pair with your Marax?


----------



## PD2020

Hi @DavecUK, really lovely shots to watch! Which coffees are visually the most spectacular? (I'm thinking roast, altitude, origin, etc.)?


----------



## DavecUK

Well all of my coffees are visually fantastic of course. In general though good quality Brazilians and Rwandan coffees always look good. Plus any quality bouton varietals. I also like a good Australian Skyberry.


----------



## Sebinho9

kico said:


> This is the Lelit official one - fits 22g VST baskets too!
> 
> https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B082BPRJFP/
> 
> You can also find the walnut handle one here - https://smile.amazon.co.uk/LELIT-LELIT58-Bottomless-Filterholder-Walnut/dp/B082BQQXYY/
> 
> I personally prefer the black / silver theme, but you can change the control knobs of the MaraX to walnut with the bianca kit.
> 
> I would recommend pairing it with a IMS 200 competition portafilter, and 18G VST Basket (to start).
> 
> What grinder / scale did you get to pair with your Marax?


 Thanks very much @kico, I'll take a look at those. I bought a grinder before I knew I wanted (needed) a decent espresso machine, so I have the Sage Smart Grinder Pro. I know Sage stuff naturally doesn't have the best rep on here but it will do me until I can make the upgrade to a Niche, Eureka or something in the future.

I'm using the middle sized basket that came with the machine at the moment and filling it - would an 18 correspond to that?

thanks again


----------



## kico

Sebinho9 said:


> Thanks very much @kico, I'll take a look at those. I bought a grinder before I knew I wanted (needed) a decent espresso machine, so I have the Sage Smart Grinder Pro. I know Sage stuff naturally doesn't have the best rep on here but it will do me until I can make the upgrade to a Niche, Eureka or something in the future.
> I'm using the middle sized basket that came with the machine at the moment and filling it - would an 18 correspond to that?
> 
> thanks again


Glad I could help, I'm quite new to all of this too.

I'm not sure re the stock baskets, you could always message lelit on Facebook messenger they are very responsive, or Bella Barista. I find lelit better with the more technical questions as it's their product, Bella Barista can't know everything about everything! Comparing the quality of the lelit baskets to vst really makes me never (ever) want to use a stock basket ever again. It is truly night and day.

Most* people wouldn't use the stock baskets with a machine like the mara x. The sage smart grinder Pro isn't as terrible as people would realistically make out from what I've read. For the pre corona price of around £160 I don't think any electric grinder could match it below the £200 mark. I'm sure you'll be able to get more than £100 for it on ebay if you keep it in good condition when you decide to sell / upgrade.

Vst baskets have smaller holes (allow for much finer grinds) and I think more of them too. They are less forgiviging if you don't have the finer + consistent grind / wdt technique properly mastered (something to really look into if you haven't already).

Maybe look at the ims competition 16/18g basket. It's a very forgiving high quality basket which is pretty much just as popular as the vst baskets. You can fit up to 19g (I think). The size up from that is too big for most.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk


----------



## kico

Sebinho9 said:


> Thanks very much @kico, I'll take a look at those. I bought a grinder before I knew I wanted (needed) a decent espresso machine, so I have the Sage Smart Grinder Pro. I know Sage stuff naturally doesn't have the best rep on here but it will do me until I can make the upgrade to a Niche, Eureka or something in the future.
> I'm using the middle sized basket that came with the machine at the moment and filling it - would an 18 correspond to that?
> 
> thanks again


Again I really can't stress how important weighing your shots is (if you don't already do this).

Aim for 20-30 seconds from the first pour. Lelit mara x has a slow pre infusion so from turning the lever that'd be 30-40 seconds. I just count from first drop.

Lots of videos / threads about weighing / coffee in and out ratios.

1:2 is a good place to start but you may find with your sage pro grinder / an ims basket that increasing the ratio to 1:3 (also roast / bean dependent) could yield more preferable results.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk


----------



## Doram

kico said:


> I'm using the middle sized basket that came with the machine at the moment and filling it - would an 18 correspond to that?


 The middle stock basket is 16g (14g-18g). You can see all the info In DaveC's review: https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/lelit-marax-review-in-progress/#accessories


----------



## kico

The best looking espresso shots on Instagram / YouTube profiles who seem to put focus on a good looking shot with all the tiger stripes over anything else seem to always use ims competition baskets and pressure profiling.

I'll always focus on taste but I do understand the appeal of a good looking extraction!

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk


----------



## KyNg

Doram said:


> It depends who you ask and what you want to do with the coffee (if you drink your flat whites in a bucket you might want more yield than in a small cup; If you split your shots it a different story again). Also remember that bigger baskets mean more coffee used per shot, more caffeine intake per shot etc. Might also be harder to get good extraction from a big basket, but some say bigger doses are more forgiving. It also depends on the roasts you prefer - lighter roasts often go with bigger doses, and darker with smaller doses.
> 
> For me 20g would be far too much. I have 15g and 18g baskets (+ a 21g one that came with the machine and lives in the garage). I mostly use the 15g one (currently with 16g doses), so between the two sizes you asked about I prefer the 15g.


 Thanks doram i've picked the 15g.. but why i get channeling on 15g meanwhile in 18g is good? Do i have to finer the grinder when using 15g compare to 18g? Thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

KyNg said:


> Thanks doram i've picked the 15g.. but why i get channeling on 15g meanwhile in 18g is good? Do i have to finer the grinder when using 15g compare to 18g? Thanks


 The 15g is finicky. It's quite shallow, so the puck will fracture much easier than the 18g or 20g.

one of the reasons why you get better results overall with a narrower and deeper basket, so the dose size is the same. One of the perks of the 53mm group used in La Spaziale machines and others.


----------



## Doram

KyNg said:


> Thanks doram i've picked the 15g.. but why i get channeling on 15g meanwhile in 18g is good? Do i have to finer the grinder when using 15g compare to 18g? Thanks


 For your second question - Yes, smaller doses do need finder grind than bigger doses (other things being equal).

As for channelling with 15g when 18g is fine, I haven't experienced that so not sure why it's happening. My understanding is that channelling is a function of the physics of the puck with water finding a path of least resistance. It can be affected by the grinder, grind size, coffee, roast, preparation...

My common sense is that if you are getting channelling on a 15g dose, then something isn't perfect. Upping the dose to 18g might hide this imperfection or mask it, but if everything else is the same then you probably haven't solved this imperfection, I think. Maybe other more knowledgeable members can offer better explanation?

Finally, if you have the 15g basket, you can dose 16g of coffee in it (and with certain coffees even more. I am currently using 16g in a 15g basket and my basket seems quite empty, so it can easily take 17g or more). The weight rating of a basket is a reference, I think, because coffees vary in weight per volume. I think this is why IMS name their baskets by height, not weight, because the weight depends on the specific coffee used.


----------



## Sebinho9

kico said:


> Comparing the quality of the lelit baskets to vst really makes me never (ever) want to use a stock basket ever again. It is truly night and day.


 Thanks very much - looking into all those baskets! Do you go ridgeless or ridged.



Doram said:


> The middle stock basket is 16g (14g-18g). You can see all the info In DaveC's review: https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/lelit-marax-review-in-progress/#accessories


 Thanks yes I went back to the specs and checked. Should have done that before firing off my reply.

I am having some instances where I turn the lever and nothing comes out. I have kept the amount and the fineness consistent, so presumably I've just tamped too hard? I just throw that puck away and tamp less hard and the next extraction is fine.

This really is a rabbit hole. I can see why people constantly upgrade when they get the bug. Presumably the scope for incremental improvement in taste is grossly outweighed by the energy and expense that goes into seeking the perfect coffee, but we are not a rational species!

Really appreciate everyone's help here.


----------



## Doram

Sebinho9 said:


> Thanks very much - looking into all those baskets! Do you go ridgeless or ridged.


 I like ridgless, and I think most people do too. It's easier to take out for cleaning, and less places for coffee to accumulate. Also more different from stock baskets. 😉



Sebinho9 said:


> I am having some instances where I turn the lever and nothing comes out. I have kept the amount and the fineness consistent, so presumably I've just tamped too hard? I just throw that puck away and tamp less hard and the next extraction is fine.


 If really nothing comes out (machine is chocked), your grind is probably too fine. I would keep the tamp the same and grid coarser.


----------



## kico

Sebinho9 said:


> Thanks very much - looking into all those baskets! Do you go ridgeless or ridged.


 Similar to what Doram has mentioned, I also go ridgeless, however with a bottomless PF it's still quite easy to push out a ridged vs with a standard pf where you can't push from the base of the basket.
I bought a ridged 7g vst (only option) and 18g, 22g ridgeless VST.

I may get an IMS basket to compare properly once my niche gets here.

Can't be too picky at the moment with stock, it is getting better (slowly).


----------



## Sebinho9

kico said:


> Similar to what Doram has mentioned, I also go ridgeless, however with a bottomless PF it's still quite easy to push out a ridged vs with a standard pf where you can't push from the base of the basket.
> I bought a ridged 7g vst (only option) and 18g, 22g ridgeless VST.
> 
> I may get an IMS basket to compare properly once my niche gets here.
> 
> Can't be too picky at the moment with stock, it is getting better (slowly).


 Thanks. Do you think there will be £20 worth of difference between this:

https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/en/IMS-E61-Competition-Filter-Basket-1620g---B702TCH26E/m-3379.aspx

and this

https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/en/VST-Precision-20g-Filter-Basket---Ridgeless/m-3304.aspx

?


----------



## L2en

Sebinho9 said:


> Thanks. Do you think there will be £20 worth of difference between this:
> 
> https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/en/IMS-E61-Competition-Filter-Basket-1620g---B702TCH26E/m-3379.aspx
> 
> and this
> 
> https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/en/VST-Precision-20g-Filter-Basket---Ridgeless/m-3304.aspx
> 
> ?


 Can't be sure, because I only have 7-9g IMS basket and all the rest are VST baskets, but the small one is very good and I love using it, so I would probably try to save money.

Unlike most people I prefer the ridged baskets. I do not have a knock box as my coffee table is right next to the bin, so I empty it straight in there and the ridgeless ones are much more likely to fall out of the portafilter holder and end up in the bin. I do not see any difference in performance, easy to change in the bottomless no matter which type you use.


----------



## kico

Sebinho9 said:


> Thanks. Do you think there will be £20 worth of difference between this:
> 
> https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/en/IMS-E61-Competition-Filter-Basket-1620g---B702TCH26E/m-3379.aspx
> 
> and this
> 
> https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/en/VST-Precision-20g-Filter-Basket---Ridgeless/m-3304.aspx
> 
> ?


 Cheapest / best place to buy VST is from hasbean

https://www.hasbean.co.uk/collections/vst/products/vst-filter-basket?variant=33183861932085

Re the IMS - go for the 16-18 direct from amazon for free shipping (Cheaper total)

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/IMS-Competition-Precision-Filter-Ridged/dp/B01L810G8U/

I haven't had both so I can't compare. VST is more for precision, but IMS is much more forgiving from what I've read (and pulls better looking shots).


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

L2en said:


> I empty it straight in there and the ridgeless ones are much more likely to fall out of the portafilter holder and end up in the bin.


 Same here. Been emptying in the bin for ages, always using *ridgeless* baskets though. I don't know about you, but my pucks just come off easily easily, there's no need to knock them out. I just literally wiggle the portafilter over the bin and the puck falls out in one piece. I think this issue of ridgeless baskets falling into the bin is a myth. Unless you catapult your PF inside the bin with extreme force!


----------



## L2en

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Same here. Been emptying in the bin for ages, always using *ridgeless* baskets though. I don't know about you, but my pucks just come off easily easily, there's no need to knock them out. I just literally wiggle the portafilter over the bin and the puck falls out in one piece. I think this issue of ridgeless baskets falling into the bin is a myth. Unless you catapult your PF inside the bin with extreme force!


 Well, mine do sometimes end up in the bin. Usually when the puck is very dry, it somehow sticks to the sides with force and I do use a force as a response😄. Sometimes I just use a spoon..


----------



## Doram

L2en said:


> Unlike most people I prefer the ridged baskets. I do not have a knock box as my coffee table is right next to the bin, so I empty it straight in there and the ridgeless ones are much more likely to fall out of the portafilter holder and end up in the bin. I do not see any difference in performance, easy to change in the bottomless no matter which type you use.





MediumRoastSteam said:


> Same here. Been emptying in the bin for ages, always using *ridgeless* baskets though. I don't know about you, but my pucks just come off easily easily, there's no need to knock them out. I just literally wiggle the portafilter over the bin and the puck falls out in one piece. I think this issue of ridgeless baskets falling into the bin is a myth. Unless you catapult your PF inside the bin with extreme force!


 No need to fight over this. 🙂 There is a really good explanation for the difference in experience: the same ridgeless basket can sit tighter or looser in different portafilters, depending on very minor differences in the size of the PF (so a ridgeless basket can fall to the bin when the PF is merely flipped over and gravity kicks in, or it can be able to stay put even after a good wiggle or a firm knock on the side of the bin (like mine).

This is where the PF clip (below) comes into place. It can be bent a little to provide better hold of the basket. So if a ridgeless basket falls out too easily, just bend and adjust the clip to hold it a little better (and in the worst case ,if the clip is too worn, it can be replaced. Happy days.


----------



## L2en

Doram said:


> No need to fight over this. 🙂 There is a really good explanation for the difference in experience: the same ridgeless basket can sit tighter or looser in different portafilters, depending on very minor differences in the size of the PF (so a ridgeless basket can fall to the bin when the PF is merely flipped over and gravity kicks in, or it can be able to stay put even after a good wiggle or a firm knock on the side of the bin (like mine).
> 
> This is where the PF clip (below) comes into place. It can be bent a little to provide better hold of the basket. So if a ridgeless basket falls out too easily, just bend and adjust the clip to hold it a little better (and in the worst case ,if the clip is too worn, it can be replaced. Happy days.
> 
> 
> View attachment 47946


 Yes, I'm very familiar with bending that clip. I have replaced it twice, but it just does happen, sometimes. As my husband says, I'm strong central european woman and I do most things with force🙂


----------



## Doram

Sebinho9 said:


> https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/en/IMS-E61-Competition-Filter-Basket-1620g---B702TCH26E/m-3379.aspx
> 
> and this
> 
> https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/en/VST-Precision-20g-Filter-Basket---Ridgeless/m-3304.aspx


 I think this is a little like the fight between Nikon and Canon followers. There are people who would swear one is better than the other (and vice versa). On this forum there seems to be a preference for VST, but elsewhere I have seen the opposite trend. VST seems to be more expensive in the UK, but I am not sure it's the same everywhere.

I have only used IMS baskets personally, so might be wrong on this, but my guess is that to tell the difference you would probably need to have everything else (machine, grinder, coffee, technique) perfect, and even then you would need a sensitive enough palate to make a significant distinction between them.


----------



## Sebinho9

Doram said:


> my guess is that to tell the difference you would probably need to have everything else (machine, grinder, coffee, technique) perfect, and even then you would need a sensitive enough palate to make a significant distinction between them.


 Thanks I thought that might be the case. It's a little like me buying a carbon frame for my bike when I could just lose some weight.

The VST on Hasbean says the tamper diameter is 58.4 whereas my lelit tamper says 58.5 on it, so perhaps I'll just go with the IMS.


----------



## kico

The red lelit tamper that came with my mara x works perfectly fine with my vst 18g and 22g baskets


----------



## Jason11

I too use the stock MaraX tamper with a VST 18g basket and it works fine.


----------



## thawhat

Got my MaraX due for delivery today, just wanted to check if I can disable standby before first power on? Or is it best to let the boiler fill first let it get up to temp then disable standby?


----------



## Sebinho9

thawhat said:


> Got my MaraX due for delivery today, just wanted to check if I can disable standby before first power on? Or is it best to let the boiler fill first let it get up to temp then disable standby?


 I didn't disable the standby until after the first fill in the instructions. Can't see why you couldn't though.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

thawhat said:


> Got my MaraX due for delivery today, just wanted to check if I can disable standby before first power on? Or is it best to let the boiler fill first let it get up to temp then disable standby?


 out of curiosity, why is that a problem? Would it be best to:

- Receive machine;
- Turn it on;
- warm it up;
- Flush 500ml through the group;
- Flush some steam through the steam wand;
- turn machine off;
- empty tank via hot water tap;
- turn machine back on;
- Let the tank fill up again;
- Let it stabilise;
- Make a coffee;
- Steam some milk;
- Enjoy your life and admire your machine in awe;
- Deal with the Standby function;
- Have another coffee just because you can. 🙃

🙂


----------



## Jason11

MediumRoastSteam said:


> out of curiosity, why is that a problem? Would it be best to:
> 
> - Receive machine;
> 
> - Turn it on;
> 
> - warm it up;
> 
> - Flush 500ml through the group;
> 
> - Flush some steam through the steam wand;
> 
> - turn machine off;
> 
> - empty tank via hot water tap;
> 
> - turn machine back on;
> 
> - Let the tank fill up again;
> 
> - Let it stabilise;
> 
> - Make a coffee;
> 
> - Steam some milk;
> 
> - Enjoy your life and admire your machine in awe;
> 
> - Deal with the Standby function;
> 
> - Have another coffee just because you can.


Don't forget to remove the "Caution Hot" label off the grouphead before switching on too


----------



## thawhat

MediumRoastSteam said:


> out of curiosity, why is that a problem? Would it be best to:
> 
> - Receive machine;
> - Turn it on;
> - warm it up;
> - Flush 500ml through the group;
> - Flush some steam through the steam wand;
> - turn machine off;
> - empty tank via hot water tap;
> - turn machine back on;
> - Let the tank fill up again;
> - Let it stabilise;
> - Make a coffee;
> - Steam some milk;
> - Enjoy your life and admire your machine in awe;
> - Deal with the Standby function;
> - Have another coffee just because you can. 🙃
> 
> 🙂


 Tbf it wasn't a problem... more just a curiosity. I did try doing it first, then when I cycled the power it initiated the boiler fill and all is good. Working like a charm.

Been playing with it all evening and what a beast it is. Coming from a Sage BE the difference is night and day! The only thing I regret doing is changing the shower screen and gasket to the IMS and Cafelat straight out the box. Was a nightmare to get the stock gasket and screen out. Tried Dave's spoon trick and it just wouldn't budge... I've ended up destroying about 4 spoons as the force needed to get it out was unreal 😂 The worst part is one of the spoons handles got caught on the manometer and I've got a lovely scratch on the outer rim. Fuming at myself for not being more careful but hey ho things can happen. It's not too bad and worse case BB sell the manometer assembly so I could replace it in the future... I ended up waiting until the group was hot and hey presto... came out. Probably should have just waited a couple of days until the gasket had bedded in but the eagerness in me came out... lesson learned! 🙃



Jason11 said:


> Don't forget to remove the "Caution Hot" label off the grouphead before switching on too https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji6.png


 First thing I did once it was on the counter was remove the stickers haha, lock sticker came of easily but the caution sticker left quite a bit of residue. Little bit of WD40 and it wiped straight off! 😄


----------



## Doram

thawhat said:


> I've ended up destroying about 4 spoons as the force needed to get it out was unreal 😂 The worst part is one of the spoons handles got caught on the manometer and I've got a lovely scratch on the outer rim. Fuming at myself for not being more careful but hey ho things can happen.


 Oh dear. This might be how Uri Geller started. 🤣

I use one of these to get the screen out: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001252593168.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.609f4c4dTGVlB1. It's plastic, so no risk of sliding and scratching anything.

I also returned to use the stock gasket after a few days with the silicone one. Nothing is wrong with it, didn't feel any advantage with the Cafelat, so though I might as well use the stock gasket before retiring it. The silicone will have to wait its turn.

Have fun with the new machine (I know you will ).


----------



## thawhat

Doram said:


> Oh dear. This might be how Uri Geller started. 🤣
> 
> I use one of these to get the screen out: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001252593168.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.609f4c4dTGVlB1. It's plastic, so no risk of sliding and scratching anything.
> 
> I also returned to use the stock gasket after a few days with the silicone one. Nothing is wrong with it, didn't feel any advantage with the Cafelat, so though I might as well use the stock gasket before retiring it. The silicone will have to wait its turn.
> 
> Have fun with the new machine (I know you will ).


 Who needs magic when you've got an E61 eh? 🤣

Good shout on the bike pry tools. I've ended up ordering these instead of the Ali Express ones. Little more expensive but I'd rather have them as soon as. Not attempting it with spoons any more after my incident.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-x-Bicycle-Plastic-Tyre-Levers-Tyre-MTB-Bike-Cycle-Puncture-Repair-Tool-Kit/132426260437


----------



## DavecUK

Group gaskets are hard to get out of a cold machine when they are new!


----------



## thawhat

DavecUK said:


> Group gaskets are hard to get out of a cold machine when they are new!


 I realise that now. It's my first e61... knew it would be stiff at first but didn't realise how stiff 🤦‍♂️ all part of the learning process. Know what and what not to do now. Take it it's best to pry it out when the group is hot for a while?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

thawhat said:


> Tried Dave's spoon trick and it just wouldn't budge... I've ended up destroying about 4 spoons as the force needed to get it out was unreal 😂


 Don't invite me for dinner. Just by reading this I can see your standards are far below mine. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂👍👍👍🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 - only joking!

I do know what you mean though: when I had my E61 I had to steal a spoon from the guest silverware... You know, those that you only bring out on Christmas Day and when your parents are around. The everyday spoons we use daily were bent on my first attempt! 😂😂😂😂😂👍👍👍👍

enjoy the machine!


----------



## Doram

thawhat said:


> I realise that now. It's my first e61... knew it would be stiff at first but didn't realise how stiff 🤦‍♂️ all part of the learning process. Know what and what not to do now. Take it it's best to pry it out when the group is hot for a while?


 It does get better: Now I just have to open the drawer where I keep the plastic bike tool and the shower screen jumps right out, it's so frightened. No need to do it with a hot machine, unless you want to burn yourself or melt the plastic.


----------



## hotmetal

Different machine (R58) but still E61. I find dropping the shower screen has to be done when cold. When warm it won't budge. That's with a Cafelat silicone gasket. I used the stock gasket until it went hard and almost glassy, had no issues with it leaking or anything but I decided it needed replacing when I saw cracks in the surface! The silicone ones don't make your coffee any better but they do squish more, but also seal well with the lightest of contact. So if your basket or portafilter upgrades leave your handle not locking in at "6 o'clock" and your OCD kicks in, silicone gaskets can be nice.


----------



## Andrewczy

Does anyone get abit of a wet spot under the hot water wand? I seem to find one when leaving the machine for a little longer than usual, ie one hour ++


----------



## Doram

Andrewczy said:


> Does anyone get abit of a wet spot under the hot water wand? I seem to find one when leaving the machine for a little longer than usual, ie one hour ++


 Just looked at mine (~an hour after a shot) and it seems dry. Haven't noticed anything like this. I do leave the wand above the tray, so I wouldn't necessarily noticed if it dripped, but I don't think it does. You do purge the wand after steaming, right?


----------



## Andrewczy

Doram said:


> Just looked at mine (~an hour after a shot) and it seems dry. Haven't noticed anything like this. I do leave the wand above the tray, so I wouldn't necessarily noticed if it dripped, but I don't think it does. You do purge the wand after steaming, right?


 Yeap! And it was under the hot water spout, not the steaming wand. I just emptied abit of water from the spout and the issue seems to have settled. Will keep a close eye on it


----------



## PD2020

PD2020 said:


> I always see a range of opinions on this subject 😉
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (5:53) - J. Hoffman saying that lighter roasts prefer lower dose
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (1:56) - "light roasted coffees you probably want to start with a lower dose, dark roasted coffees I lean towards a higher dose, and it's to do with how easy they are to extract"
> 
> https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/espresso-recipes-analyzing-dose/ - Barista Hustle saying "A larger dose can make more espresso, and a lower dose can make less. It's as simple as that" (i.e. dose doesn't impact the flavour)
> 
> https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/what-effect-does-bed-depth-have-when-increasing-your-dose-to-make-more-espresso/ - ... but actually it totally does...
> 
> Yours  - "lighter roasts often go with bigger doses, and darker with smaller doses."


 Hi @Doram. It seems that the idea of how to dose for lighter roasts has changed over time, as explained by @Rob1 in here:

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/54666-changing-dose-withwithout-grind-size-to-guide-taste/?do=findComment&comment=777066



> When the 'third wave' really took off roasters were roasting lighter and lighter and baristas were updosing more and more to try and get a good extraction. Eventually the trend stopped, roasters used refractometers to assess solubility and developed the coffee better, while baristas understood their extractions better and realised the trend for light roast ristrettos was a trend towards under-extraction.
> 
> While updosing with an underdeveloped coffee allowed the barista to slow a shot down it's thought shallower pucks are easier to extract. It might be easier to achieve a high EY with a 15g puck than an 18g puck. The coffee will absorb less heat from the water and come up to temperature faster, but much more significantly you'll be grinding finer with a lower dose. (...)
> 
> The old trend was to updose light and underdeveloped roasts to slow shots down. With properly roasted light roasts, if your equipment can grind very finely consistently, then I think in theory you should be able to achieve a higher EY with comparatively lower doses and finer grinds. I would say it's best to stick to a fairly narrow dose range (i.e a single basket size +/- 1g) to avoid complicating things for yourself further.


----------



## Rob1

PD2020 said:


> Hi @Doram. It seems that the idea of how to dose for lighter roasts has changed over time, as explained by @Rob1 in here:
> 
> https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/54666-changing-dose-withwithout-grind-size-to-guide-taste/?do=findComment&comment=777066


 Updosing is a focus on shot time and 'slowing the shot down'.

Well the thing is there's the "latest development" which is lower doses, faster shots, coarser grinds and I think longer ratios (all at the same time). Or maybe not the last one. The idea is this produces a more even extraction. But it's not as simple as that because it completely changes what the drink is; people might prefer an 'uneven' extraction. The most efficient way to a high EY is coarse grinds and fast shots with low doses and to get the complexity mix a number of different shots together. In a cafe setting this can save money, improve the coffee, improve consistency. But it's all a matter of taste and for home users it's not really feasibly to pull multiple shots at different settings so they can be mixed together to deliver something similar to what they usually produce only with the use of less coffee.

My quoted last paragraph above should really also say "with faster shot times" which seems to fall in line with Ek43 user experiences.


----------



## Sebinho9

kico said:


> Cheapest / best place to buy VST is from hasbean
> 
> https://www.hasbean.co.uk/collections/vst/products/vst-filter-basket?variant=33183861932085
> 
> Re the IMS - go for the 16-18 direct from amazon for free shipping (Cheaper total)
> 
> https://smile.amazon.co.uk/IMS-Competition-Precision-Filter-Ridged/dp/B01L810G8U/
> 
> I haven't had both so I can't compare. VST is more for precision, but IMS is much more forgiving from what I've read (and pulls better looking shots).


 Received my VST from Hasbean Went for 20g ridgeless.

wow! I really underestimated the difference this would make to the coffee. I am on new beans and earlier I decided to go coarser because I had a bitter aftertaste, but the first time with the VST my coffee-out weight rushed through in 20s and it was sour. So I have made the grind much finer and it's now delicious. Still a bit fast.

Is grind size the only thing I should alter to slow down the extraction or should I be tamping harder? I haven't altered anything apart from grind size. At the moment it's 20g coffee, 30 seconds (of which about 24 are actual extraction because of the MaraX preinfusion) to get 50g. I know I should be aiming for 1:2 but I like to have with 150-200ml milk and find 40 is too weak.

Thanks a lot

Seb


----------



## Mrboots2u

Sebinho9 said:


> Received my VST from Hasbean Went for 20g ridgeless.
> 
> wow! I really underestimated the difference this would make to the coffee. I am on new beans and earlier I decided to go coarser because I had a bitter aftertaste, but the first time with the VST my coffee-out weight rushed through in 20s and it was sour. So I have made the grind much finer and it's now delicious. Still a bit fast.
> 
> Is grind size the only thing I should alter to slow down the extraction or should I be tamping harder? I haven't altered anything apart from grind size. At the moment it's 20g coffee, 30 seconds (of which about 24 are actual extraction because of the MaraX preinfusion) to get 50g. I know I should be aiming for 1:2 but I like to have with 150-200ml milk and find 40 is too weak.
> 
> Thanks a lot
> 
> Seb


 Don't use tamp to drive contact time, why you ask ..

1. It doesn't really do anything = it may seem like it is but it isn't . I have pulled shots with 10lbs 20lbs and no tamp all within a second of each other. Shots can differ in contact time but it's unlikely to be an additional 10lbs of pressure but more likely the distribution of the coffee before you tamp.

2. Dont use time to drive the variables of a shot, time is a result of grind and dose but you shouldn't aim for a time . Use your taste buds to drive what to change. If it's delicious enjoy it , will it get any more delicious coz of an arbitrary 2 /3 seconds? It might you can try if you really want to , but dont use time as a reason to change the grind or contact time.

Lastly bitter doesn't not always equate to "over extraction" and needing a coarser grind. At a 1 ;2 ratio you are probably never going to over extract a shot of espresso full stop .

Taste is not linear under isn't always sour , bitter isn't always "over" .


----------



## Sebinho9

Mrboots2u said:


> Don't use tamp to drive contact time, why you ask ..
> 
> 1. It doesn't really do anything = it may seem like it is but it isn't . I have pulled shots with 10lbs 20lbs and no tamp all within a second of each other. Shots can differ in contact time but it's unlikely to be an additional 10lbs of pressure but more likely the distribution of the coffee before you tamp.
> 
> 2. Dont use time to drive the variables of a shot, time is a result of grind and dose but you shouldn't aim for a time . Use your taste buds to drive what to change. If it's delicious enjoy it , will it get any more delicious coz of an arbitrary 2 /3 seconds? It might you can try if you really want to , but dont use time as a reason to change the grind or contact time.
> 
> Lastly bitter doesn't not always equate to "over extraction" and needing a coarser grind. At a 1 ;2 ratio you are probably never going to over extract a shot of espresso full stop .
> 
> Taste is not linear under isn't always sour , bitter isn't always "over" .


 Thanks very much that's really sound advice.


----------



## itguy

MaraX owners...

I have noticed on my MaraX that when the pump runs occasionally when the machine is warmed up (presumably to keep the thermosyphon running) I am getting a water trickling sound along with it.

Am I right in thinking that this will just be from the solenoid inside the machine next to the OPV, venting to the tray?

If this is right, out of interest, what is it venting against? A set pressure? I ask as the trickling noise is happening while the pump is running and stops when it goes off, so couldn't quite get my head around how it is supposed to work?

Thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

L2en said:


> Yes, I'm very familiar with bending that clip. I have replaced it twice, but it just does happen, sometimes. As my husband says, I'm strong central european woman and I do most things with force🙂


 For all intents and purposes... VST 18g ridgeless basket after a shot. 😉



Doram said:


> No need to fight over this


 Knocking is overrated. Introducing... catapulting 🤣


----------



## L2en

> 29 minutes ago, MediumRoastSteam said:
> 
> For all intents and purposes... VST 18g ridgeless basket after a shot. 😉
> 
> Knocking is overrated. Introducing... catapulting 🤣


 Yeah, I'm not that gentle🙂 Will have to try. But with the arrival of Niche I use only the 18g ridged VST now, so not a problem anymore😄 The coffee somehow tastes better than it did with the old grinder from this bigger basket.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> MaraX owners...
> 
> I have noticed on my MaraX that when the pump runs occasionally when the machine is warmed up (presumably to keep the thermosyphon running) I am getting a water trickling sound along with it.
> 
> Am I right in thinking that this will just be from the solenoid inside the machine next to the OPV, venting to the tray?
> 
> If this is right, out of interest, what is it venting against? A set pressure? I ask as the trickling noise is happening while the pump is running and stops when it goes off, so couldn't quite get my head around how it is supposed to work?
> 
> Thanks


 As far as I know, the MaraX empties the HX now and again into the drip tray in order to keep the temperature stable and not overheat.


----------



## Ilias

I was reading this thread for a while, amazing information.

I just ordered a MaraX, upgrading from the Victoria. I was super happy with victoria but since I make quite a few milk drinks I thought a HX unit makes more sense. I will miss the LCC display and the timer function of the victoria but I guess we can't have anything at this price point.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Ilias said:


> I was reading this thread for a while, amazing information.
> 
> I just ordered a MaraX, upgrading from the Victoria. I was super happy with victoria but since I make quite a few milk drinks I thought a HX unit makes more sense. I will miss the LCC display and the timer function of the victoria but I guess we can't have anything at this price point.


 You could have had the Elizabeth - pretty much the same price, sometimes cheaper, depending where you buy it 🙂

Regardless, as you researched yourself, you won't be disappointed with the MaraX. Seems like a great machine.


----------



## IaninBristol

Hi all. Just checking some thinking after a lot of reading the forums. It seems here there's a consensus that the Mara X shot times are about 35-40 seconds-ish for a fairly standard espresso? And that's about 10 seconds or so up on standard ballpark times people (particularly roasters) bounce around when talking espresso? Is that right? So if you are a Mara X owner and saw a recipe from a roaster of 19g in, 38g out in 25-30 seconds (one I'm trying to do), would you think 'as a Mara X owner, I reckon I'll be looking at 35-40 seconds for a similar result?'.

Sorry if you think it's clear from the rest of the posts here but I'm struggling a bit as I'm new to espresso and the Mara X, so am chewing through beans with poor results. I'm to use recipes to get me in a ballpark to at least work from


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

IaninBristol said:


> Hi all. Just checking some thinking after a lot of reading the forums. It seems here there's a consensus that the Mara X shot times are about 35-40 seconds-ish for a fairly standard espresso? And that's about 10 seconds or so up on standard ballpark times people (particularly roasters) bounce around when talking espresso? Is that right? So if you are a Mara X owner and saw a recipe from a roaster of 19g in, 38g out in 25-30 seconds (one I'm trying to do), would you think 'as a Mara X owner, I reckon I'll be looking at 35-40 seconds for a similar result?'.
> 
> Sorry if you think it's clear from the rest of the posts here but I'm struggling a bit as I'm new to espresso and the Mara X, so am chewing through beans with poor results. I'm to use recipes to get me in a ballpark to at least work from


 It depends on the coffee and the grinder too. I don't think there's a set in stone value - You just do what works for you.

I have a Lelit Elizabeth, same pump as the MaraX, and I tend, for the beans I like - lighter roasted, using the Niche - to favour a longer extraction around 40 seconds. But that's me. There's no reason you can't do 25s or 30s too, although, saying that, with all the machines I had (with the except of the La Pavoni which I never bothered timing) I always aimed for a 32-35s shot with medium roasted beans. Just experiment and see what works for you. A good starting point is 18g in, 36g in 30s/35s. If you want to increase/decrease the extraction time and keep the ratio (18->36), grind finer/coarser.

Let your tastebuds guide you.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Garfield said:


> I watched on video where machine was tested with scace and flaws are possible.
> 
> If you watch from 4:20 this guys got machine with wrong offset programmed. I will send a grinder too and ask them to try to brew espresso.


 Hi there, just wondering if you had any further progress with this machine?


----------



## Doram

IaninBristol said:


> Hi all. Just checking some thinking after a lot of reading the forums. It seems here there's a consensus that the Mara X shot times are about 35-40 seconds-ish for a fairly standard espresso? And that's about 10 seconds or so up on standard ballpark times people (particularly roasters) bounce around when talking espresso? Is that right? So if you are a Mara X owner and saw a recipe from a roaster of 19g in, 38g out in 25-30 seconds (one I'm trying to do), would you think 'as a Mara X owner, I reckon I'll be looking at 35-40 seconds for a similar result?'.
> 
> Sorry if you think it's clear from the rest of the posts here but I'm struggling a bit as I'm new to espresso and the Mara X, so am chewing through beans with poor results. I'm to use recipes to get me in a ballpark to at least work from


 Might be obvious, but just in case you missed it: The reason for the shots taking a little longer is that Mara X has a built in pre-infusion and a slow ramp up of pressure which takes ~10 seconds. It means that it starts by wetting the coffee and gradually upping the pressure, but it doesn't start pushing that water with full strength until about 10 seconds have passed from lifting the lever. So when you get 25-30 second actual time under ~9-10 bars of pressure on Mara X, it has been 35-40 seconds since lifting the lever. The machine doesn't brew coffee any differently than other machines, it is just doing something that takes about 10 seconds *before* it stats pushing. So 35-40 seconds on Mara X is equivalent to 25-30 seconds on a machine that starts at full pressure straight away, if that makes sense.


----------



## IaninBristol

Doram said:


> Might be obvious, but just in case you missed it: The reason for the shots taking a little longer is that Mara X has a built in pre-infusion and a slow ramp up of pressure which takes ~10 seconds. It means that it starts by wetting the coffee and gradually upping the pressure, but it doesn't start pushing that water with full strength until about 10 seconds have passed from lifting the lever. So when you get 25-30 second actual time under ~9-10 bars of pressure on Mara X, it has been 35-40 seconds since lifting the lever. The machine doesn't brew coffee any differently than other machines, it is just doing something that takes about 10 seconds *before* it stats pushing. So 35-40 seconds on Mara X is equivalent to 25-30 seconds on a machine that starts at full pressure straight away, if that makes sense.


 Thank you - 100% makes sense. I suppose the thing I was wondering was whether the 'standard' times given by roasters also included some pre-infusion as I'm assuming lots of machines do some kind of preinfusion and slow ramp up? So, for example, when Rave say 24 to 27 seconds on their Fudge blend, are they developing that recipe on a machine with zero preinfusion so I can add on 10 seconds due to the Lelit preinfusion and aim for 34-37 seconds (I know it's not that simple and that taste might not work for me, rather it's just if I want to mimic roughly what they did)? I suppose I'd assumed that all recipes would include some preinfusion of some sort but I am very new to this!


----------



## IaninBristol

MediumRoastSteam said:


> It depends on the coffee and the grinder too. I don't think there's a set in stone value - You just do what works for you.
> 
> I have a Lelit Elizabeth, same pump as the MaraX, and I tend, for the beans I like - lighter roasted, using the Niche - to favour a longer extraction around 40 seconds. But that's me. There's no reason you can't do 25s or 30s too, although, saying that, with all the machines I had (with the except of the La Pavoni which I never bothered timing) I always aimed for a 32-35s shot with medium roasted beans. Just experiment and see what works for you. A good starting point is 18g in, 36g in 30s/35s. If you want to increase/decrease the extraction time and keep the ratio (18->36), grind finer/coarser.
> 
> Let your tastebuds guide you.


 Thank you, that makes sense to me. Definitely learning to let the tastebuds guide me - it's fun but challenging


----------



## Doram

IaninBristol said:


> So, for example, when Rave say 24 to 27 seconds on their Fudge blend, are they developing that recipe on a machine with zero preinfusion so I can add on 10 seconds due to the Lelit preinfusion and aim for 34-37 seconds (I know it's not that simple and that taste might not work for me, rather it's just if I want to mimic roughly what they did)? I suppose I'd assumed that all recipes would include some preinfusion of some sort but I am very new to this!


 You would have to ask Rave, but I assume the answer is yes, the time in the recipe doesn't include pre-infusion. There is no other way to to give a ballpark time including pre-infusion (unless a specific pre-infusion time is given), because pre-infusion times can vary greatly (the clue is in the name - it's *pre*, and the time given is for the *infusion*  ). So if Rave say 24-27 seconds and you want to follow their recipe to the letter, then if you have 10 seconds of pre-infusion, your ballpark time would be 34-37 seconds (or a tad less, as shots would run a little faster after pre-infusion because the coffee is already wet).

I think the above will be true for any time given in a recipe, so you would normally have to add to that on Mara X to accommodate for pre-infusion.

Having said that, don't take time as gospel. People are experiencing with length of shots, and time is usually considered a guide only, less important than other variables (within reason of course). Tasty shots are good no matter how long they took, and bad shots won't get a trophy for nailing the time.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

IaninBristol said:


> Thank you, that makes sense to me. Definitely learning to let the tastebuds guide me - it's fun but challenging


 On what @Doramsays above... most likely Rave has a beast of a machine, most likely E61 with rotary pump. Those pumps just to from 0 to 9 bar in no time, and you'd be seeing the first drips in maybe 4 seconds with a bottomless. Don't forget the E61 also has a pre-infusion chamber Tomkins of delay it.

so yeah... add 6 seconds to the time as guidelines. But ultimately, try both recipes and see what you like. 👍


----------



## KyNg

MediumRoastSteam said:


> On what @Doramsays above... most likely Rave has a beast of a machine, most likely E61 with rotary pump. Those pumps just to from 0 to 9 bar in no time, and you'd be seeing the first drips in maybe 4 seconds with a bottomless. Don't forget the E61 also has a pre-infusion chamber Tomkins of delay it.
> 
> so yeah... add 6 seconds to the time as guidelines. But ultimately, try both recipes and see what you like. 👍


 Guys is it a good idea to upgrade my silenzio to niche? I saw some peoples here were using eureka as a previous grinder. How is it?

My friend here are using anfim scoddy 2.. but it's such a huge one lol.. i dont think its a good idea to put it on home.

I'm using it for myself 1 to 2 cups per day sometimes for my wife and in laws..


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

KyNg said:


> is it a good idea to upgrade my silenzio to niche?


 The Niche is a popular choice here which the majority of owners are happy with.

will you notice a massive difference in taste? Maybe. Maybe not.

Taste aside, the appeal of the Niche is being a single doser, simple to use and very easy to clean and take apart. And, of course, retains less than 0.2g in the burr chamber, so no need to waste beans purging it.


----------



## IaninBristol

MediumRoastSteam said:


> On what @Doramsays above... most likely Rave has a beast of a machine, most likely E61 with rotary pump. Those pumps just to from 0 to 9 bar in no time, and you'd be seeing the first drips in maybe 4 seconds with a bottomless. Don't forget the E61 also has a pre-infusion chamber Tomkins of delay it.
> 
> so yeah... add 6 seconds to the time as guidelines. But ultimately, try both recipes and see what you like. 👍


 Thank you @MediumRoastSteamand @Doram. This is definitely the bit I was missing in my newbie head (particularly the kind of machines they are likely to be using - of which I have no experience of course). In fairness I should have asked them when I picked up some beans yesterday! I also realised afterwards that I missed a trick and hadn't asked them to do an espresso for me and ordered the usual flat white instead. One of the weird things about dialling in for me is that I actually haven't drunk a lot of well-prepared neat espresso, so I'm learning that too. And I definitely get the point that it's about taste, not time, but curiosity is satisfied. And I promise I am learning to trust those tastebuds more and more.


----------



## Ilias

I am new here but I think the +10 sec is a bit too much IMHO. I tried a few shots from a coffee I know and love with my previous machine and I get the same flow rate if I only add ~5 seconds.

My best tasting coffee was at ~32 sec.

With most machines you get first drop at 6-7 seconds after the start and the recommendation is 25-30sec.

With Marax you get the first drop out at 10-11 seconds (at least with mine). Therefore I think that ideally we should add 4-5 seconds...

edit: this is for 17gr coffee -> 34gr drink.

Am I missing something ?

Ilias


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Ilias said:


> Am I missing something ?


 I don't understand why time is so important. Add 4-5 seconds, subtract, divide, multiply... Square root it if you wish. But don't let 6-7 25-30sec be the driver. You need to work with your machine, not against it. Ignore the time and find what suits your palate most. You never know, but you might find that a 40s shot works even better... 😉


----------



## siliconslave

Ilias said:


> With most machines you get first drop at 6-7 seconds after the start and the recommendation is 25-30sec.
> 
> With Marax you get the first drop out at 10-11 seconds (at least with mine). Therefore I think that ideally we should add 4-5 seconds...


 Think the pressure ramps up around the 10 second mark which suggests its running a 10second pre-infusion, as such the 'standard' timing would make it 35seconds in total.

As with all things espresso thats just a starting point, if your getting better results at 30 then great  in-fact I might have a go with a faster extraction...


----------



## Ilias

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I don't understand why time is so important. Add 4-5 seconds, subtract, divide, multiply... Square root it if you wish. But don't let 6-7 25-30sec be the driver. You need to work with your machine, not against it. Ignore the time and find what suits your palate most. You never know, but you might find that a 40s shot works even better... 😉


 I agree, I adjust the grind based on taste and keep the other variables constant (dose, ratio, temperature). the time the result for a given dose and ratio. I was just saying that for 17gr of coffee a balanced shot in my case is at ~32sec. But it really depends on the coffee too.

Having said that, IMHO if the flow is tooooooo low to achieve this ratio (e.g., dripping) while satisfying your taste then it is more likely to get channeling and inconsistent results between shots (a very dense puck will channel easier). In that case I either decrease dose or increase temperature (that results in requiring coarser grind to get similar taste). But yeah, it always should be taste driven but ideally you should aim for a consistent healthy flow (within a logical range) to get your desired taste (thus temperature and dose are also adjustable). Thats why I try to keep the 25-35 range in marax...


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Ilias said:


> I agree, I adjust the grind based on taste and keep the other variables constant (dose, ratio, temperature). the time the result for a given dose and ratio. I was just saying that for 17gr of coffee a balanced shot in my case is at ~32sec. But it really depends on the coffee too.
> 
> Having said that, IMHO if the flow is tooooooo low to achieve this ratio (e.g., dripping) while satisfying your taste then it is more likely to get channeling and inconsistent results between shots (a very dense puck will channel easier). In that case I either decrease dose or increase temperature (that results in requiring coarser grind to get similar taste). But yeah, it always should be taste driven but ideally you should aim for a consistent healthy flow (within a logical range) to get your desired taste (thus temperature and dose are also adjustable). Thats why I try to keep the 25-35 range in marax...


 Fair enough. For what's worth, I have an Elizabeth. Same pump. I find for the coffee I use, tasty shots are always within the 35-42s range. I usually also add a 10s pre-infusion, which makes a difference taste wise but doesn't mean too much in terms of timing (i.e.: With the same grind, with or without pre-infusion the time is roughly the same). This is because shots run faster after the pre-infusion stage compared to no-pre infusion.


----------



## profesor_historia

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The Niche is a popular choice here which the majority of owners are happy with.
> will you notice a massive difference in taste? Maybe. Maybe not.
> Taste aside, the appeal of the Niche is being a single doser, simple to use and very easy to clean and take apart. And, of course, retains less than 0.2g in the burr chamber, so no need to waste beans purging it.


Just an idea, I don't throw the coffee I purge, instead I keep it in a tin in the fridge for a Mokka so like this don't have to waste anything.

Sent from my ALP-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

profesor_historia said:


> Just an idea, I don't throw the coffee I purge, instead I keep it in a tin in the fridge for a Mokka so like this don't have to waste anything.
> 
> Sent from my ALP-L09 using Tapatalk


 Oh, I remember those days... Now with the Niche... Purging is a thing of the distant past. 🙂 - Back then, I used to keep the purge for aeropress, but I found it was too fine. And it didn't taste good either, otherwise we would just use that as espresso, right? 😉


----------



## profesor_historia

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Oh, I remember those days... Now with the Niche... Purging is a thing of the distant past.  - Back then, I used to keep the purge for aeropress, but I found it was too fine. And it didn't taste good either, otherwise we would just use that as espresso, right?


I use it for Mokka wich is more forgiving than aeropress and the results are excellent







. The good coffee is too expensive to be thrown away, it's almost a sin







.

Sent from my ALP-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Garfield

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Hi there, just wondering if you had any further progress with this machine?


 Hi @MediumRoastSteam

sorry I was very busy to seat and write a longer post.

It looks like things are going in good direction. It looks like that machine is ok but the problem is my lack of experience and tricky business ???? I also stoped flushing, thanks to a knowledge from this forum.

I have found one good article in our local tech newspaper from a series: "Chemist in house" with title "Which water is the best for a coffee?". So I started again to try to find the solution for the problems in my water.

This graph intrigued me to change the water again.










Nearest water I could find that is ok is Aqua Panna and it is recommended by La Marzocco. But I ordered Third Wave Water espresso profile, which I will use to save the machine from scaling.

Currently I brew some good beans from Gardelli, CIGNOBIANCO Signature Blend and after I bought IMS basket 18-22 I finally got some tasty espressos.

This is the basket I installed.









So it took me 4 months to start brewing tasty espresso, not bad for a beginner ????


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Garfield said:


> Hi @MediumRoastSteam
> 
> sorry I was very busy to seat and write a longer post.
> 
> It looks like things are going in good direction. It looks like that machine is ok but the problem is my lack of experience and tricky business ???? I also stoped flushing, thanks to a knowledge from this forum.
> 
> I have found one good article in our local tech newspaper from a series: "Chemist in house" with title "Which water is the best for a coffee?". So I started again to try to find the solution for the problems in my water.
> 
> This graph intrigued me to change the water again.
> 
> 
> 
> Nearest water I could find that is ok is Aqua Panna and it is recommended by La Marzocco. But I ordered Third Wave Water espresso profile, which I will use to save the machine from scaling.
> 
> Currently I brew some good beans from Gardelli, CIGNOBIANCO Signature Blend and after I bought IMS basket 18-22 I finally got some tasty espressos.
> 
> This is the basket I installed.
> 
> View attachment 48982
> 
> 
> So it took me 4 months to start brewing tasty espresso, not bad for a beginner ????


 I'm pleased! Yes, the MaraX is a walk up and pull machine. No need to flush it, ever. 
and I must say... you must have some very delicate tastebuds! Look after them! ????


----------



## Ilias

I also instrumented my Marax with a serial to USB link (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07BBPX8B8) and a raspberry pi. It collects readings from the PID, stores them in a DB and I can plot both historical and real-time data.

I need to figure out why the grouphead return temperature jumps to 105deg during a shot, but this could be because I only tested without coffee (just run water).


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Ilias said:


> I need to figure out why the grouphead return temperature jumps to 105deg


 I wouldn't worry about it. On a dual boiler machine, the temperature inside the boiler is about 14C hotter than the actual temperature of the water expected inside the group. The MaraX has some software to manage that temperature rather well. So Don't be guided by the temperature of the HX: Instead, install a thermometer in the group head and monitor that instead, as that's the temperature that's important when making a coffee.


----------



## Sebinho9

Hi all. Had mine about 4-5 weeks or so now. Done two puly caff backflushes (which I now see is about 1 too many) and the cam is now squeaking.

Am going to lube (once I've found the pages I've seen before recommending the type) - but still seems a bit soon to start squeaking no?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Sebinho9 said:


> Hi all. Had mine about 4-5 weeks or so now. Done two puly caff backflushes (which I now see is about 1 too many) and the cam is now squeaking.
> 
> Am going to lube (once I've found the pages I've seen before recommending the type) - but still seems a bit soon to start squeaking no?


 First mistake: not to lube immediately after a chemical backflush.

the squeaking noise is a consequence of the pins rubbing against the lever cam.

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/e61-lubrication


----------



## dbeckett

Has anyone else here struggled with channeling?

Had my gaggia classic for 5 years, never really had an issue with channeling, then moved to the marax in August, and just got myself a bottomless portafilter there last month and I'm constantly getting channelling. I powered up my gaggia classic again this morning and had no channeling issues with the same technique and beans. I'm still on the stock marax shower screen, could this be to blame?

Grinder: mazzer SJ with doserless mod, use a cocktail stick for distribution - not precise but worked fine on the gaggia


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

dbeckett said:


> powered up my gaggia classic again this morning and had no channeling issues


 Do you have a bottomless for the Classic too?


----------



## dbeckett

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Do you have a bottomless for the Classic too?


 Yes, bottomless on the gaggia as well

Also should have added above that Mara x has a 18g vst basket


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

dbeckett said:


> Yes, bottomless on the gaggia as well
> 
> Also should have added above that Mara x has a 18g vst basket


 And likewise on the Gaggia right? I.e.: like for like?


----------



## Andrewczy

dbeckett said:


> Has anyone else here struggled with channeling?
> 
> Had my gaggia classic for 5 years, never really had an issue with channeling, then moved to the marax in August, and just got myself a bottomless portafilter there last month and I'm constantly getting channelling. I powered up my gaggia classic again this morning and had no channeling issues with the same technique and beans. I'm still on the stock marax shower screen, could this be to blame?
> 
> Grinder: mazzer SJ with doserless mod, use a cocktail stick for distribution - not precise but worked fine on the gaggia


 Hmmm I've found the Mara X to actually be more forgiving compared to the breville barista express when Kg comes to this.

Maybe it's because you have to grind a little finer on the Mara X due to its slow gradual pre infusion?


----------



## Fuzu

Hi everyone,

I just received my Mara X one week ago and watching video avec DaveC, i'm wondering what is the best workflow to have best steam performance and great temperature control.

I would like to do one capuccino first and then an espresso. What's the best workflow to have a great temperature during brewing :

1: espresso shot -> steam milk (then wait 60sec ? but no more than 3/4min max since the first shot ?) -> do a second espresso

2: do a flush to active heating -> wait a little bit -> steam milk (with more power) -> wait 60sec ? -> first espresso -> wait 60sec -> second espresso

Does steaming milk will reset the 3/4min max between shot ?

I think i will do the mod with a raspberry pi and grafana to have more information of temperature.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Fuzu said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I just received my Mara X one week ago and watching video avec DaveC, i'm wondering what is the best workflow to have best steam performance and great temperature control.
> 
> I would like to do one capuccino first and then an espresso. What's the best workflow to have a great temperature during brewing :
> 
> 1: espresso shot -> steam milk (then wait 60sec ? but no more than 3/4min max since the first shot ?) -> do a second espresso
> 
> 2: do a flush to active heating -> wait a little bit -> steam milk (with more power) -> wait 60sec ? -> first espresso -> wait 60sec -> second espresso
> 
> Does steaming milk will reset the 3/4min max between shot ?
> 
> I think i will do the mod with a raspberry pi and grafana to have more information of temperature.


 Hi. I don't own a MaraX, but my friend does. Had a coffee at his a few weeks ago, and, guess what? Just do as you would. 😂 - pull your first espresso, steam milk. Clean basket, grind, tamp, etc (60s gone!), and repeat the process. - As simple as that.


----------



## DavecUK

Fuzu said:


> Does steaming milk will reset the 3/4min max between shot ?


 No, pulling a shot resets this....not indefinitely, as after a lot of shots temperature management and stability has to be affected a little (less stable). If I had to guess I'd say perhaps 6 -8 doubles...but I'm not sure...not something I tested beyond 4 doubles.


----------



## Fuzu

Thanks Dave 👍, so i just need to be fast to steam and then do another espresso shot (between 60sec & 3min)


----------



## Doram

Fuzu said:


> I would like to do one capuccino first and then an espresso. What's the best workflow to have a great temperature during brewing :
> 
> 1: espresso shot -> steam milk (then wait 60sec ? but no more than 3/4min max since the first shot ?) -> do a second espresso
> 
> 2: do a flush to active heating -> wait a little bit -> steam milk (with more power) -> wait 60sec ? -> first espresso -> wait 60sec -> second espresso
> 
> Does steaming milk will reset the 3/4min max between shot ?


 You need to understand how the machine works, and this will make everything clear (it's quite simple, not rocket science):
In brew priority, once warmed up the machine will keep the group at the brew temperature you chose (out of the 3 possible settings).
As soon as you do anything with the machine (lift the lever, purge water or purge steam), you will 'wake' the heating element and the machine will start to heat up and bring it to steam temperature/pressure (it takes a minute or two to get to steam pressure). You can do this 'wake up' of the heating element naturally by pulling a shot (because you lift the lever), or you could do it just for the purpose of waking up the heating element (by quickly purging water/steam/group) before a shot, so that you can steam sooner (for example, if you want to pull a shot and steam at the same time). 
However, although the boiler will be ready for steaming, the mass of brass will keep the group in brew temperature for a bit longer (say 5 minutes maybe?), and while it does you are able to steam or brew, both in the correct temperature. But - if you wait longer than a certain time (~5 minutes), eventually the hotter boiler temperature will also heat the group above the brew temp you set, at which point you need to give the machine ~15 minutes to cool down back to the set brew temperature in the group before you pull your next shot.



DavecUK said:


> No, pulling a shot resets this.


 @DavecUK - is my description above correct? If so, does pulling a shot resets the heating up to steam pressure because it serves as a cooling flush? Does that mean you can do many (say 10) back to back shot-then-steam, and as long as you don't wait more than 5 minutes between shots you can keep going and going without the group overheating?


----------



## zellleonhart

Doram said:


> But - if you wait longer than a certain time (~5 minutes), eventually the hotter boiler temperature will also heat the group above the brew temp you set, at which point you need to give the machine ~15 minutes to cool down back to the set brew temperature in the group before you pull your next shot.


 Riding on the topic to understand more - for this situation (>5 minutes between the first and 2nd shot), can't I just do a flush like a normal HX machine does to "lower" the temp? Or this will actually have an adverse effect causing it to heat up even more (since it activates the heating element)?

In another word, what I am curious is - if the group temp is higher than desired brew temp, is waiting ~15 minutes the only way or I can flush?


----------



## DavecUK

zellleonhart said:


> Riding on the topic to understand more - for this situation (>5 minutes between the first and 2nd shot), can't I just do a flush like a normal HX machine does to "lower" the temp? Or this will actually have an adverse effect causing it to heat up even more (since it activates the heating element)?
> 
> In another word, what I am curious is - if the group temp is higher than desired brew temp, is waiting ~15 minutes the only way or I can flush?


 You can flush like an HX but with the uncertainty of HX temps.


----------



## Andrewczy

What scale is everyone using with the Mara X? The ones I have are currently a little big and hang over the drip tray.


----------



## KyNg

Andrewczy said:


> What scale is everyone using with the Mara X? The ones I have are currently a little big and hang over the drip tray.


 I'm using the diamond scale chinesse cheap one 0.01g quite accurate although no timer.. but most of my friends using felicita arc.. some were using brewista 2.. or acaia lunar but it's a bit expensive but love their design..


----------



## KyNg

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The Niche is a popular choice here which the majority of owners are happy with.
> 
> will you notice a massive difference in taste? Maybe. Maybe not.
> 
> Taste aside, the appeal of the Niche is being a single doser, simple to use and very easy to clean and take apart. And, of course, retains less than 0.2g in the burr chamber, so no need to waste beans purging it.


 I've sold my silenzio with good price i dont know if it can be sold that fast here and just received my niche zero black today.. so far happy with the purchase.. Thanks again for the recommendation..


----------



## 1823Dave

Andrewczy said:


> What scale is everyone using with the Mara X? The ones I have are currently a little big and hang over the drip tray.


 I'm using a cheap 0.01g one off amazon, but it was recommended to me due to its near instant response time. Fits on the MaraX no problem.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01JKX4QAC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_6sB3FbPBGC7Q7


----------



## Mannion

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I have had my MaraX for about a month now and I am guessing it is due a clean now. I have been keeping the wand/exterior of the machine wiped down and I was going to switch out the filter in the tank this week.

Is there any other cleaning recommended to keep it running well?


----------



## itguy

I've just done mine at the weekend for the first time. Backflush with Pulycafe 5 times for 15 secs per time on the grouphead and then I dismantled the lever mechanism to lubricate the cams inside with molykote 111 food safe grease.


----------



## Doram

Mannion said:


> Is there any other cleaning recommended to keep it running well?


 You can do a backflush with water as often as you want. Many (myself included) do it after the last shot of every day (just a quick one flush against a blind filter, not the whole shebang, takes seconds to do).

Also drop the shower screen and gasket to clean them, and wipe the group while they are off. I do it every couple of days, and also take out the dispersion screw. Might not need to do it that often, but I like to see everything clean. It's also easy to do, and keeps things looking new.

Take out the water tank and wash it in warm soapy water. If you leave it too long, things will grow (touch the black plastic of the in-tank assembly and see if you already have slimy residue on it). You can also sanitise it if you feel inclined (I do).

Refresh the water in the boiler (turn the machine off after making coffee, put a jug under the water wand and open the tap to let the pressure push all the water out. The pump will not draw new water because the machine is off, so you will empty the boiler. Once done, when you turn the machine on, the pump will re-fill the boiler). The idea is to get fresh water and reduce the mineral build up that happens because when you steam you draw pure water and leave minerals behind, so the concentration of minerals gradually builds up and the water gets harder. Some say you have to do it every week. I do it less often, maybe every 3-4 weeks, time will tell if it's not enough. Frequency should also depend on the hardness of the water you use in the machine (you should use soft water to avoid issues of scaling).


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Drawing a cup of water weekly through the hot water tap and using it for Americano or a cup of tea is also a good idea. The water taste initially is not great, but after a a few water cycles and a few months is will be ok... ish. 😉


----------



## cengland117

Had a search but can't find anything clear on this - does anyone know/has anyone tried swapping the steam tip on the MaraX? Lelit don't seem to sell them separately.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

cengland117 said:


> Had a search but can't find anything clear on this - does anyone know/has anyone tried swapping the steam tip on the MaraX? Lelit don't seem to sell them separately.


 What's the issue? the Expobar ones fits. Some people here replaced with the single hole versions for expobar. Give Bella Barista a ring, they will find something that matches.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48398-mara-x/?do=embed&comment=746738&embedComment=746738&embedDo=findComment


----------



## cengland117

MediumRoastSteam said:


> What's the issue? the Expobar ones fits. Some people here replaced with the single hole versions for expobar. Give Bella Barista a ring, they will find something that matches.


 No issue as such just wanted to see if the steaming performance could be increased by fitting a 3/4 hole tip. Thanks, I'll have a look into those 👍


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

cengland117 said:


> No issue as such just wanted to see if the steaming performance could be increased by fitting a 3/4 hole tip. Thanks, I'll have a look into those 👍


 I think you need an 8.5mm male thread if memory doesn't fail me. Personally... I think the 2 hole tip for the MaraX is spot on (same as Elizabeth).


----------



## Merchant-Seaman

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum, so first things first hello! I'm currently running a Lelit Mara X and Niche Zero on the way in Feb...

I'm having a bit of an issue recently with the Mara X. This seemed to start out of nowhere one day, after not doing anything different with the machine. Usually during warm up (in brew temp priority, temp setting 0), I hear steam building and briefly exiting the system, then the steam pressure gauge will go up to 3 bar and slowly fall back down to about 0.5 bar or maybe slightly over within about 30 minutes.

In recent days, the steam pressure gauge will go up to well beyond the 3 bar maximum, to the point that it's in line with about 13 bar on the pump pressure gauge. At this point there's steam firing out of the machine and a bit of a whistling noise. It calms down on its own but it's concerning, and then takes well over the usual 30 minutes to reduce steam pressure, to the point that it usually sits at about 1bar rather than 0.5bar.

Video here: 




Apologies, I only caught the end of the mad steam and only caught it in vertical video, but you get the point!

The machine is less than 2 months old from BB in the UK, and until the last few days has been flawless. I've backflushed with water every couple of days and a couple of times with puly caff. I'm using the in-tank water filter. I tried draining the tank and HX as shown in the Lelit Insider YouTube videos, but that didn't change anything. There doesn't appear to be any leaks as far as I can see. It's just very worrying when it's whining away as it warms up.

Does anyone have any idea what this could be/if it's an easy fix or if I should just get it back to BellaBarista to look at? Tried phoning them but they're naturally all away at the moment. Any help appreciated.

Thanks.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Merchant-Seaman said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm new to the forum, so first things first hello! I'm currently running a Lelit Mara X and Niche Zero on the way in Feb...
> 
> I'm having a bit of an issue recently with the Mara X. This seemed to start out of nowhere one day, after not doing anything different with the machine. Usually during warm up (in brew temp priority, temp setting 0), I hear steam building and briefly exiting the system, then the steam pressure gauge will go up to 3 bar and slowly fall back down to about 0.5 bar or maybe slightly over within about 30 minutes.
> 
> In recent days, the steam pressure gauge will go up to well beyond the 3 bar maximum, to the point that it's in line with about 13 bar on the pump pressure gauge. At this point there's steam firing out of the machine and a bit of a whistling noise. It calms down on its own but it's concerning, and then takes well over the usual 30 minutes to reduce steam pressure, to the point that it usually sits at about 1bar rather than 0.5bar.
> 
> Video here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apologies, I only caught the end of the mad steam and only caught it in vertical video, but you get the point!
> 
> The machine is less than 2 months old from BB in the UK, and until the last few days has been flawless. I've backflushed with water every couple of days and a couple of times with puly caff. I'm using the in-tank water filter. I tried draining the tank and HX as shown in the Lelit Insider YouTube videos, but that didn't change anything. There doesn't appear to be any leaks as far as I can see. It's just very worrying when it's whining away as it warms up.
> 
> Does anyone have any idea what this could be/if it's an easy fix or if I should just get it back to BellaBarista to look at? Tried phoning them but they're naturally all away at the moment. Any help appreciated.
> 
> Thanks.


 Looks like your safety valve popped. It shouldn't. This means the machine is heating way beyond what if should. This could be many things:

faulty sensor
faulty control box

given the machine is so new, I'd send it back to Bella Barista and let them sort it out.


----------



## cengland117

Merchant-Seaman said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm new to the forum, so first things first hello! I'm currently running a Lelit Mara X and Niche Zero on the way in Feb...
> 
> I'm having a bit of an issue recently with the Mara X. This seemed to start out of nowhere one day, after not doing anything different with the machine. Usually during warm up (in brew temp priority, temp setting 0), I hear steam building and briefly exiting the system, then the steam pressure gauge will go up to 3 bar and slowly fall back down to about 0.5 bar or maybe slightly over within about 30 minutes.
> 
> In recent days, the steam pressure gauge will go up to well beyond the 3 bar maximum, to the point that it's in line with about 13 bar on the pump pressure gauge. At this point there's steam firing out of the machine and a bit of a whistling noise. It calms down on its own but it's concerning, and then takes well over the usual 30 minutes to reduce steam pressure, to the point that it usually sits at about 1bar rather than 0.5bar.
> 
> Video here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apologies, I only caught the end of the mad steam and only caught it in vertical video, but you get the point!
> 
> The machine is less than 2 months old from BB in the UK, and until the last few days has been flawless. I've backflushed with water every couple of days and a couple of times with puly caff. I'm using the in-tank water filter. I tried draining the tank and HX as shown in the Lelit Insider YouTube videos, but that didn't change anything. There doesn't appear to be any leaks as far as I can see. It's just very worrying when it's whining away as it warms up.
> 
> Does anyone have any idea what this could be/if it's an easy fix or if I should just get it back to BellaBarista to look at? Tried phoning them but they're naturally all away at the moment. Any help appreciated.
> 
> Thanks.


 Had the exact same issue with my first MaraX. Tell BB, they will sort you out.


----------



## itguy

Has anyone with a MaraX noticed a bit of a 'wobble' on the pump pressure when extracting the first shot of the day? Mine sometimes rapidly fluctuates between about 8.5 to 9.5 bar on the gauge - like a wooo-wooo-wooo-wooo noise and then it settles down and extracts 'cleanly'.

It doesn't seem to do it during pre infusion, just when the pressure ramps up.

I am wondering if it is air in the system somehow (air in the HX or pump supply side maybe?). Any way I can resolve that?

If memory serves me right, it only seems to have started doing it since I backflushed it with pulycafe for the first time and removed the lever/cam and lubricated it. Coincidence I imagine, but just mentioning it in case it has any relevance.

Any thoughts?


----------



## Doram

cengland117 said:


> Had the exact same issue with my first MaraX. Tell BB, they will sort you out.


 Did BB tell you what was wrong and how they fixed it? Could be very helpful to others if they encounter this issue, such as @Merchant-Seaman, and interesting even for those who don't.


----------



## Doram

itguy said:


> Has anyone with a MaraX noticed a bit of a 'wobble' on the pump pressure when extracting the first shot of the day? Mine sometimes rapidly fluctuates between about 8.5 to 9.5 bar on the gauge - like a wooo-wooo-wooo-wooo noise and then it settles down and extracts 'cleanly'.


 Do you get the same against a blind basket? Could be interesting to test and rule out that it's coming from the puck.


----------



## Merchant-Seaman

cengland117 said:


> Had the exact same issue with my first MaraX. Tell BB, they will sort you out.


 I'm guessing from "first MaraX" they replaced it rather than repaired?

Good to know I'm not the only one, would be nice to know the actual cause of it though. It was fine until recently, seems odd that something would off itself after such a short service life.


----------



## cengland117

They first attempted to fix, but that didn't work so they then replaced. At the time they were not sure what the issue was and they never told me if they found out. It appeared to me that the machine's computer was thinking the temperature was lower than it actually was and kept boosting it, unnecessarily.

They were going to send it back to Lelit for inspection... The replacement machine has been faultless.


----------



## itguy

Doram said:


> Do you get the same against a blind basket? Could be interesting to test and rule out that it's coming from the puck.


 Well as expected (frustratingly) this morning all worked perfectly. I tried against a blind basket first and no issues, then pulled a shot with no issues.

I think I might drop the case off later just to check everything over inside, see if there are visible air bubbles anywhere etc, but apart from that there isn't much more I can think of.


----------



## ChrisKon

Has anyone used a right angle mains connector for their mara before?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Compatible-TH-42PX80B-TH-42PX60B-TH-46PZ81B-TH-46PZ85B/dp/B07WWF6WGY/ref=mp_s_a_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=right+angle+mains+power+cable&qid=1609356836&sprefix=right+angle+mains+&sr=8-9

I've seen this one here but want to make sure that it's safe for Lelita before I use it.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

ChrisKon said:


> Has anyone used a right angle mains connector for their mara before?
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Compatible-TH-42PX80B-TH-42PX60B-TH-46PZ81B-TH-46PZ85B/dp/B07WWF6WGY/ref=mp_s_a_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=right+angle+mains+power+cable&qid=1609356836&sprefix=right+angle+mains+&sr=8-9
> 
> I've seen this one here but want to make sure that it's safe for Lelita before I use it.


 You need one that's at least rated to 7amp, 1600W. I don't know the rating of the quoted cable.


----------



## Doram

ChrisKon said:


> Has anyone used a right angle mains connector for their mara before?


 Yes, it's a simple kettle/computer cable and you can easily replace it. The cable you linked to has 13A stamped on the plastic, and I think most kettle leads will work no problem. I use a right angled one and it does make a difference and gets the machine closer to the wall. To be honest, I don't see why the machine doesn't ship with a right angle cable as stock.


----------



## DavecUK

I use these: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002DWA8IW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> The cable you linked to has 13A stamped on the plastic


 I Should have gone to spec savers... :exit:


----------



## ChrisKon

Doram said:


> To be honest, I don't see why the machine doesn't ship with a right angle cable as stock.


 Agreed.


----------



## ChrisKon

DavecUK said:


> I use these: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002DWA8IW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


 Nice one Dave.


----------



## ChrisKon

I'm looking into maintenance for my new setup, no point spending all that money if I ain't going to look after my investment.

1. At what points would I have to drain the water from mara x?

I've had mine for 3 weeks, I went from using tap water for first 3 days (with lelits water filter in tank) and since then mainly bottled water and and filtered jug water.

My Osmio zero is coming tomorrow so will be using that from now on.

2.Because I used some tap water initially, should I do anything to counter act any potential harm from tap water used?

3. Sterilizing tanks (mara and Osmio), how often would you recommend to this?

I know incorrect use of water is most common cause of faults in machines so want to get that right...


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

ChrisKon said:


> I'm looking into maintenance for my new setup, no point spending all that money if I ain't going to look after my investment.
> 
> 1. At what points would I have to drain the water from mara x?
> 
> I've had mine for 3 weeks, I went from using tap water for first 3 days (with lelits water filter in tank) and since then mainly bottled water and and filtered jug water.
> 
> My Osmio zero is coming tomorrow so will be using that from now on.
> 
> 2.Because I used some tap water initially, should I do anything to counter act any potential harm from tap water used?
> 
> 3. Sterilizing tanks (mara and Osmio), how often would you recommend to this?
> 
> I know incorrect use of water is most common cause of faults in machines so want to get that right...


 2. You need to drain the boiler and refil with good water.

Turn machine on, let it come up to the highest possible pressure during warm up, e.g: 1.5bar or whatever the max is; turn machine off completely; open the hot water tap and completely drain the boiler into a jug or something they can take about 1L of water if not more; when no more water comes out, turn the tap off; Empty the tank, and fill it up with good water from the Osmio; turn the machine back on; machine will start refilling it. You are all done. Do this every other month, and draw a cup of water every week (cup of tea, or Americano) to make sure the water from the boiler is recycled.


----------



## ChrisKon

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Turn machine on, let it come up to the highest possible pressure during warm up, e.g: 1.5bar or whatever the max is; turn machine off completely; open the hot water tap and completely drain the boiler into a jug or something they can take about 1L of water if not more; when no more water comes out, turn the tap off; Empty the tank, and fill it up with good water from the Osmio; turn the machine back on; machine will start refilling it. You are all done. Do this every other month, and draw a cup of water every week (cup of tea, or Americano) to make sure the water from the boiler is recycled.


 Thank, appreciate the guidance. I will defintely do this.



MediumRoastSteam said:


> on; machine will start refilling it. You are all done. Do this every other month, and draw a cup of water every week (cup of tea, or Americano) to make sure the water from the boiler is recycled.


 I'm assuming from the hot water wand?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

ChrisKon said:


> I'm assuming from the hot water wand?


 Of course. You won't be able to draw hot water from the group with your machine off. 😉

If it's not clear: when I mean "turn machine off completely" I mean off on the master switch. Unplug the machine from the wall sort of thing. 👍


----------



## ChrisKon

@MediumRoastSteam Ha ha, my mild OCD can't help but double check!



MediumRoastSteam said:


> If it's not clear: when I mean "turn machine off completely" I mean off on the master switch. Unplug the machine from the wall sort of thing. 👍


 I appreciate the clarity, probably saved me from tagging you on another post!!!


----------



## Andrewczy

itguy said:


> Has anyone with a MaraX noticed a bit of a 'wobble' on the pump pressure when extracting the first shot of the day? Mine sometimes rapidly fluctuates between about 8.5 to 9.5 bar on the gauge - like a wooo-wooo-wooo-wooo noise and then it settles down and extracts 'cleanly'.
> 
> It doesn't seem to do it during pre infusion, just when the pressure ramps up.
> 
> I am wondering if it is air in the system somehow (air in the HX or pump supply side maybe?). Any way I can resolve that?
> 
> If memory serves me right, it only seems to have started doing it since I backflushed it with pulycafe for the first time and removed the lever/cam and lubricated it. Coincidence I imagine, but just mentioning it in case it has any relevance.
> 
> Any thoughts?


 I've noticed this every now and then, esp after switching to ims baskets. Never an issue when backflushing. I've always put it down to maybe a poor Puck prep causing uneven pressures when pulling a shot


----------



## KyNg

Guys i think i got the same issue with the machine.. today when i brew thd bar pressure wont go up to 10 only 8.5 to 9 then slowly decreasing.. usually i thought it was because of chanelling.. so i try to backflush it then it wont fo up to 10 only 8ish.. Usually it goes up to 10..


----------



## itguy

KyNg said:


> Guys i think i got the same issue with the machine.. today when i brew thd bar pressure wont go up to 10 only 8.5 to 9 then slowly decreasing.. usually i thought it was because of chanelling.. so i try to backflush it then it wont fo up to 10 only 8ish.. Usually it goes up to 10..


 Hmmm, I've never seen that with mine. I haven't managed to capture the issue I described on video yet, although it hasn't done it for a little while now. Mine felt more like air in the system somewhere to be honest.


----------



## KyNg

itguy said:


> Hmmm, I've never seen that with mine. I haven't managed to capture the issue I described on video yet, although it hasn't done it for a little while now. Mine felt more like air in the system somewhere to be honest.


 Hmm ya it's fixed now somehow after i turned it off clean everything after several hour turn it on again then immediately half an hour make espresso and works well bar pressure to 10.. was wondering what happen hmm.. after switch off this time i try to drain the boiler using hot water wand.. lets see tomorrow..


----------



## itguy

I have been watching the videos on YouTube from various people who have connected the serial interface on the PID to watch what is going on with the temperatures etc.

Lelit Insider has made quite a few, and what I have noticed is that there are multiple versions of the software for the PID. He goes from 1.18 to 1.19, 1.20 and 1.21 in his videos.

This makes me wonder what they are tweaking and what versions we have all got. It might be that @Doram has a different version to me or @DavecUK when he did his tests. I have been resisting the urge to buy the kit and connect mine up like this, but I am intrigued to know what software mine is running now.

Even a simple change like the tolerances on auto-refill etc are quite significant.

Is there any way we can find out what changes in each version?

Is there any way we can have our machines updated / version changed?


----------



## DavecUK

The software is in a Gicar box, these can be reflashed. I have kit that can read software on some and flash them but the process can be very specific for the particular box and way beyond what retailers can do.

I will have a spare box soon so might see what I can work out.

My assumption would be they are using the same version I tested?


----------



## John Yossarian

itguy said:


> I have been watching the videos on YouTube from various people who have connected the serial interface on the PID to watch what is going on with the temperatures etc.
> 
> Lelit Insider has made quite a few, and what I have noticed is that there are multiple versions of the software for the PID. He goes from 1.18 to 1.19, 1.20 and 1.21 in his videos.
> 
> This makes me wonder what they are tweaking and what versions we have all got. It might be that @Doram has a different version to me or @DavecUK when he did his tests. I have been resisting the urge to buy the kit and connect mine up like this, but I am intrigued to know what software mine is running now.
> 
> Even a simple change like the tolerances on auto-refill etc are quite significant.
> 
> Is there any way we can find out what changes in each version?
> 
> Is there any way we can have our machines updated / version changed?


 You raise a good point but I doubt it is feasible to do firmware updates at home unlike TVs and other Hi Fi gadgets.

EDIT: I must have posted at the same time with DaveC but he confirmed my doubts.


----------



## itguy

Yes, wasn't expecting to do it at home, but I wouldn't be averse to sending my gicar box to Dave or someone, or taking my machine to Bella Barisa to have it done on the bench there as I'm local to them.


----------



## Ilias

itguy said:


> I have been watching the videos on YouTube from various people who have connected the serial interface on the PID to watch what is going on with the temperatures etc.
> 
> Lelit Insider has made quite a few, and what I have noticed is that there are multiple versions of the software for the PID. He goes from 1.18 to 1.19, 1.20 and 1.21 in his videos.
> 
> This makes me wonder what they are tweaking and what versions we have all got. It might be that @Doram has a different version to me or @DavecUK when he did his tests. I have been resisting the urge to buy the kit and connect mine up like this, but I am intrigued to know what software mine is running now.
> 
> Even a simple change like the tolerances on auto-refill etc are quite significant.
> 
> Is there any way we can find out what changes in each version?
> 
> Is there any way we can have our machines updated / version changed?


 I am not near my coffee machine today but I remember when I connected mine the software revision was a few numbers higher than the lelit insider. I bought mine in November.

I'll take a screenshot on Tuesday and let you know the exact version.


----------



## itguy

Perfect, thank you. It feels like we need a forum kit of the cabling, usb converter etc that we can each have a go with and then send on to the next MaraX owner!


----------



## Ilias

I got this one:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07BBPX8B8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Works quite well (tested with a mac and a raspberry pi, but it should work with windows too I assume)

I now have it attached to to a raspberry pi and use it to create a dashboard that tells me real-time temperatures boiler status etc.

I am planning (when I have time) to code a shot counter (coffees per day) and a shot timer.

Unfortunately i don't log the software version, so I can't see it remotely. This is the information I log:



> *version*, temp_boiler, target_temp, temp_group, countoun, heat_on = str(ser.readline())[2:-5].split(',')
> timestamp = datetime.utcnow().strftime('%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S.%f')[:-3]
> 
> data = [
> {
> "measurement": 'Marax',
> "tags": {
> "location": 'marax',
> },
> "time": timestamp,
> "fields": {
> "Current Boiler Temp" : int(temp_boiler),
> "Target Boiler Temp": int(target_temp),
> "Group temperature" : int(temp_group),
> "Boost timer": int(countoun),
> "Heat on": int(heat_on),
> 
> }
> }
> ]


 When I am back home i'll print the version.

Ilias


----------



## Fuzu

I use a raspberry and a serial to usb too. I think it's really usefull to have a temperature monitor. 
i have also added a small 5inch screen to always have a eye on this.

My MaraX currently run the 1.23 software.


----------



## itguy

Interesting, 1.23 software is the newest I've heard of yet. How is your steaming when in coffee priority mode? I wonder if some of us having variable steaming performance all have the same version and it has a bug in it or something?!


----------



## Ilias

Yeah. I've done something similar with a much worse screen


----------



## Fuzu

itguy said:


> Interesting, 1.23 software is the newest I've heard of yet. How is your steaming when in coffee priority mode? I wonder if some of us having variable steaming performance all have the same version and it has a bug in it or something?!


 If i try to steam just after the first coffee, the steam performance is pretty bad.

When i want to do a cappuccino first, i always simulate a fake shot (let the pump run for 10sec) and after that i wait a little bit more than 60 sec to have a correct temperature during the second extraction.

So after that, the steam pressure is arround 1.5Bar and it's perfect the steam the milk.


----------



## Doram

itguy said:


> Interesting, 1.23 software is the newest I've heard of yet. How is your steaming when in coffee priority mode? I wonder if some of us having variable steaming performance all have the same version and it has a bug in it or something?!


 I don't know what software version I have, but I got my machine late September from Espresso Underground.

However, given that unlike phones/computers/TVs the software isn't intended to be updated after sale, I wouldn't think that Lelit keeps constantly making significant tweaks to it after releasing machines to consumers. It would make even less sense to change the software that was working ok in September, just to make it worse for November...

There are so many other things in the machine that can go wrong (PIDs, pressure valves, leakage, blockage...). Of course everything is possible, but why assume Lelit decided to take a perfectly working version of the software and introduce some bugs to it just so we have something to talk about? 🙂


----------



## itguy

@Doram don't worry, I'm not suggesting they would introduce bugs. Probably wrong word for what is in my head.

My thought was more that they might have tried to improve something by tweaking a timer counter or something and in doing so have accidentally made it a bit worse.

If there are varying versions of the PID firmware out there live in our machines, there is a chance that it might mean the machines are operating differently, that's all.

Totally agree re it not making sense - but we'll only know if there is a difference "in the wild" if we try to create some kind of register of what serial number (as a proxy of production date), software version and if there are any steaming 'traits' or not...

I have emailed Lelit directly just to ask them a few questions, with the PID different versions being one (in the context of steaming). They're closed until 8/1/21 so we'll see after that


----------



## itguy

@Ilias and @Fuzu do you think this one would be ok?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08DKM6Q63/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_O3E8Fb6MR3TQW?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Just wondered about the little black single connectors at the end. Are they going to be ok to connect to the PID?


----------



## Fuzu

Yes I think this one will works fine. You only need to connect the green and white cable. 
mine is this one https://www.amazon.fr/Module-PL2303TA-vers-RS232-convertisseur/dp/B08HS9M3P9/ref=sr_1_5?__mk_fr_FR=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&dchild=1&keywords=PL2303TA+USB+vers+TTL+RS232&qid=1609692151&sr=8-5

it's the same as your, PL2303.

i have just tweak my raspbian kernel because sometime after a reboot the raspberry didn't configure correctly the serial port.

If you are also looking for a small hdmi screen, I have bought this one

https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/32801341185.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.4bb36c37H3pSbE


----------



## Ilias

Maybe

I was not sure if the VCC was 3.3 or 5 so I used one that can do both (with a jumper shown here). But I think it was 5v. I can check tomorrow.

@itguy

ilias


----------



## itguy

Very kind, thank you.


----------



## Doram

itguy said:


> I have emailed Lelit directly just to ask them a few questions, with the PID different versions being one (in the context of steaming). They're closed until 8/1/21 so we'll see after that


 Wanted to suggest asking Lelit, then saw you already did. I remember when I emailed they were also on some extended holiday. They do seem to know how to live the life over there, lol. 🙂


----------



## itguy

Yes they certainly do. Whenever I go to Italy I try to just soak up the culture. So different to here!!


----------



## Ilias

Ilias said:


> Maybe
> 
> I was not sure if the VCC was 3.3 or 5 so I used one that can do both (with a jumper shown here). But I think it was 5v. I can check tomorrow.
> 
> @itguy
> 
> ilias


 So I checked my setup

1) reader is at 3.3volts.

2) My software version is 1.23 (bought the machine from BB early November)


----------



## Fuzu

Why do you want to plug the red and black cable ? You just need UART connection white and green


----------



## Ilias

Fuzu said:


> Why do you want to plug the red and black cable ? You just need UART connection white and green


 I don't, I only plug the TX/RX. I just wanted to make sure that the correct tx/rx voltage is detected.


----------



## Fuzu

Okay, i understand now


----------



## zellleonhart

Hi all, new to Mara X and was thinking about something. Reading from a few places I understood that after pulling the first shot, the best time frame to pull the second shot is somewhere between 1.5 to 4 (or 5) minutes before the temperature exceeds the target range and I'll have to wait another 15-20 minutes for it to cool down.

What about the scenario where I pulled the first shot AND steamed milk, does the above still apply? If yes, the 1.5 minutes is counting from the end of the first shot or end of steaming? If no, do I need to wait 15 minutes?

Overthinker here 😛


----------



## Garfield

Hi,

@MediumRoastSteam and @PD2020 do you remember that i wrote, that i will send my machine to one good local service for check. They have found that my manometer was showing 9 bars but on the handle it was around 10.5 and as you can see from the image.









Now it is set 7.8 bars on marax manometer and on the handle is now 9bar. They brewed espresso on this setup with temperature set on 2 and told me that it is fine now with any coffee.









Maybe to much pressure caused to fast flow and underextraction problems but manometer fooled me.

I will try at monday.


----------



## PD2020

Interesting. I thought that 10 bars on the MaraX pump pressure meter usually translate to 9 bars on the puck, so 1 bar less. In your case it translated to more - 10.5 bars.

My best shots so far have been between around 24-29 sec, which is way faster than anybody else I've seen on the Internet (given VST18, dose 18g, output around 30-54g, middle temp setting 93-94*C).

Is there any quick (hopefully inexpensive) way to check the actual pressure?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@Garfield - I'm glad you figured out what's going on. So, let me get this right: you sent the machine to them, they tested and tried coffee from it. They thought it wasn't good too. They then adjusted the pressure down and they now think it makes a change, so that the espresso is better?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

PD2020 said:


> I thought that 10 bars on the MaraX pump pressure meter usually translate to 9 bars on the puck, so 1 bar less. In your case it translated to more.


 Not only that: according to Garfield, the manometer was showing a lesser value than when measured at the group. (9 bar and 10.5 bar respectively). In a way, the opposite from what you said above.

Moreover, with a blind PF (as it's the case with the manometer at the group), as opposed to one where it simulates a bed of coffee, you'd expect the pressure in the MaraX gauge and the gauge at the group to have a similar reading. It's almost as if the MaraX pressure gauge is not calibrated properly (I.e.: reads 1.5 bar lower).


----------



## Garfield

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @Garfield - I'm glad you figured out what's going on. So, let me get this right: you sent the machine to them, they tested and tried coffee from it. They thought it wasn't good too. They then adjusted the pressure down and they now think it makes a change, so that the espresso is better?


 Yes. I have sent them everything, machine, grinder and coffee, even tamper 🙂

They tried first with my setup and found that salty taste in espresso. Then they adjusted it by lowering the pressure and increasing temp to 2 and said that coffee is great, like a juice. 8 people in service tried and said that it is great.

Servicer filled 18grams stock filter basket to full, slightly tapped by hand, grinded more into it and did not meassured extraction, but stoped on colour. It was finished around 28seconds after the first drop, so it is 40 and more with preinf. But he told me that i will have trouble to meassure extraction because of pump type. He also did a short flush ~2sec before locking handle.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Garfield said:


> Yes. I have sent them everything, machine, grinder and coffee, even tamper 🙂
> 
> They tried first with my setup and found that salty taste in espresso. Then they adjusted it by lowering the pressure and increasing temp to 2 and said that coffee is great, like a juice. 8 people in service tried and said that it is great.
> 
> Servicer filled 18grams stock filter basket to full, slightly tapped by hand, grinded more into it and did not meassured extraction, but stoped on colour. It was finished around 28seconds after the first drop, so it is 40 and more with preinf. But he told me that i will have trouble to meassure extraction because of pump type. He also did a short flush ~2sec before locking handle.


 Excellent. I bet you can't wait. Keep us posted when you receive your machine back!


----------



## PD2020

How would you advise to check the actual pressure on the puck? In terms of accuracy is there any difference between a grouphead manometer and a portafilter manometer?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

PD2020 said:


> How would you advise to check the actual pressure on the puck? In terms of accuracy is there any difference between a grouphead manometer and a portafilter manometer?


 Well... if you just want to check your gauge is accurate, I think you can make a DYI kit. Get a gauge off eBay and a 3/8 bsp adapter. Thing is, you'll need to unscrew the spouts, which are usually threadlocked. Or you attach a pressure gauge to the E61. I think it should be effectively the same for this purpose.

however, I'm disregarding water expansion as it gets hot in the group and not as hot, or not at all, in the capillary tubing which leads to the machine's pressure gauge. I don't know if that's on the cold or hot part of the machine. Water temperature difference *could *explain the difference in reading between the gauges as seen in@Garfield's machine. But I don't know for sure, as I don't know enough about the design of the machine or hydraulics.


----------



## KyNg

Guys what if the voltage of our house is not that stable will it caused the bar pressure not stable as well? Is it necessary to buy stabilizer for my espresso machine.. i afraid i might broke the mara x because the voltage of my in laws house.. huhu🙃

Btw does anybody try out hoffman new video prewet the puck before preinfusion 😁


----------



## CoffeeTim

Hi everyone, does anyone knows the steam boiler pressure of all 3 temperature settings in the brew priority mode?


----------



## itguy

CoffeeTim said:


> Hi everyone, does anyone knows the steam boiler pressure of all 3 temperature settings in the brew priority mode?


 In brew priority mode the brain in the machine continually alters the steam boiler pressure to keep the E61 at the pre-set temperature for brewing the coffee without a flush.

The MaraX will boost the steam up to 1.4-1.5bar from any of the pre-set brew priority temp settings ready to steam milk though.


----------



## ChrisKon

itguy said:


> The MaraX will boost the steam up to 1.4-1.5bar from any of the pre-set brew priority temp settings ready to steam milk though.


 Do you feel the mara x always boosts steam pressure to 1.4-1.5?

I'm going to pay attention to the pressure on my next few shots but I don't think 1.4-1.5 is always the case.


----------



## itguy

ChrisKon said:


> Do you feel the mara x always boosts steam pressure to 1.4-1.5?
> 
> I'm going to pay attention to the pressure on my next few shots but I don't think 1.4-1.5 is always the case.


 Yes, as long as you wait long enough after the shot has been pulled. I tend to extract, clean PF and then steam. As long as I am not too quick with the cleaning of the PF, I regularly get 1.4bar or more.

If you don't, then try just cracking the steam wand open a bit for a second and then it should boost again a bit more after.


----------



## ChrisKon

Ok nice one @itguy will try a quick purge if needed.


----------



## DavecUK

KyNg said:


> Guys what if the voltage of our house is not that stable will it caused the bar pressure not stable as well? Is it necessary to buy stabilizer for my espresso machine.. i afraid i might broke the mara x because the voltage of my in laws house.. huhu🙃
> 
> Btw does anybody try out hoffman new video prewet the puck before preinfusion 😁


 The voltage stability will have no effect on extraction pressure for your machine.


----------



## KyNg

DavecUK said:


> The voltage stability will have no effect on extraction pressure for your machine.


 Ah i see okay thanks dave..


----------



## jousis

A quick note on the electronics for those getting the PID debug in case you haven't seen it already.

lever button (at least) is 5V, I repeat, button is *DC*5V.

So, get those shot timers rolling... 😉

ps. I will have soon an esp32 (BLE + mobile / MQTT + cloud) firmware plus the mobile app (ionic/capacitor).
All open source (MIT). I will inform asap but for those that want the C code to play on their own:

https://gitlab.com/jousis/marax_visualizer


----------



## zellleonhart

Hi all, I have a small issue with my Mara X this morning. (All at Brew priority, temp setting #1) At the 30th min of warm up the steam pressure was still showing 2.6 bar (usually it should slowly drop back to below 1 bar after like 18 mins) and only went down to 1 bar at around 45th minute. The shot I pulled today was a failure, I think the temp was too hot and I can see the water boiling/some steaming when I engage the group head lever.

After pulling a shot, the steam pressure goes up to 2 bar which is unusual. Usually it only reaches 1.5 bar max. Is there anything that could cause this?


----------



## CoffeeTim

zellleonhart said:


> Hi all, I have a small issue with my Mara X this morning. (All at Brew priority, temp setting #1) At the 30th min of warm up the steam pressure was still showing 2.6 bar (usually it should slowly drop back to below 1 bar after like 18 mins) and only went down to 1 bar at around 45th minute. The shot I pulled today was a failure, I think the temp was too hot and I can see the water boiling/some steaming when I engage the group head lever.
> After pulling a shot, the steam pressure goes up to 2 bar which is unusual. Usually it only reaches 1.5 bar max. Is there anything that could cause this?


Hmm... sounds like a brew thermocouple short circuited halfway.


----------



## zellleonhart

CoffeeTim said:


> zellleonhart said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi all, I have a small issue with my Mara X this morning. (All at Brew priority, temp setting #1) At the 30th min of warm up the steam pressure was still showing 2.6 bar (usually it should slowly drop back to below 1 bar after like 18 mins) and only went down to 1 bar at around 45th minute. The shot I pulled today was a failure, I think the temp was too hot and I can see the water boiling/some steaming when I engage the group head lever.
> After pulling a shot, the steam pressure goes up to 2 bar which is unusual. Usually it only reaches 1.5 bar max. Is there anything that could cause this?
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm... sounds like a brew thermocouple short circuited halfway.
Click to expand...

 How do I check if the thermocouple short circuited? And which component is the thermocouple actually?

I did the OPV rerouting mod but it was okay for the past few days. Not sure if anything was affected by it.

UPDATE: cooled it down and warmed up again, all good now. Seems to be an one-off thing for now


----------



## CoffeeTim

OPV only adjust the pressure of the brew water. It's not related to the steam pressure.

thermocouple is the temperature sensor used i commercial. In brew priority, the machine uses the brew head thermocouple to set the temperature of the boiler. if there are short circuit between the 2 different material wire, it will sense temperature outsidebthe brew head which is much colder. Thus the heater will keep heqting up the boiler and causes extremely high pressure.

Try to switch to steam priority and see if the pressure can maintain. In steam priority mode, it uses the thermocouple in the steam boiler to set the pressure in the boiler. In this mode, it is similar to most HX machines in the market. All you need to do to stabilize the brew temperature is to flush the group head before you brew your espresso.

Summary.
Brew priority - set temperature of the brew water and accept whatever the steam pressure/temperature required to achieve the specify brew temperature.

Steam priority - set the steam pressure/temperature and accept whatever result the brew temperature output.

For the time being, if you want to continue brewing your espresso, I recommend you to switch to Steam priority until you get proper fix from Lelit.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## borez

jousis said:


> A quick note on the electronics for those getting the PID debug in case you haven't seen it already.
> 
> lever button (at least) is 5V, I repeat, button is *DC*5V.
> 
> So, get those shot timers rolling... 😉
> 
> ps. I will have soon an esp32 (BLE + mobile / MQTT + cloud) firmware plus the mobile app (ionic/capacitor).
> All open source (MIT). I will inform asap but for those that want the C code to play on their own:
> 
> https://gitlab.com/jousis/marax_visualizer


 Interesting, thanks. Does yours require the reed switch for shot timing?


----------



## Hellmann

Hi!

Did anyone try to eliminate vibration noises by glueing insulation to the metalparts? Overall the MaraX is really quiet but I have some unwanted noises and I bet stuff like this:

https://reckhorn.com/schall-waermedaemmung/abx-2-mm-alubutyl-dv-10i-daemmvlies

could eliminate it. Has anyone tried that?

greetings!


----------



## jousis

borez said:


> Interesting, thanks. Does yours require the reed switch for shot timing?


 The PID debug does not give any pump on/off value unfortunately so If you want a shot timer you 'll have to get it manually.

I have an optocoupler-based circuit , others use reed switch. Or you can find other more creative and fun ways (accelerometer maybe ? ).

The good thing about MaraX is that the internal signaling is DC. My old glenda was 230VAC everywhere.


----------



## kitchang

hi, can lelit PLA930M 70L filter be used on mara x?

I find a review mention it will have pressure problem.

pla930s 35L filter are almost out of stock. I just can buy the 70L water filter.


----------



## DavecUK

Welcome to the forum.

I can't see why it would be a problem...which review mentions this?


----------



## itguy

Bella Barista sold me one for my MaraX - I suspect they'd have mentioned it if it wouldn't work. I bought it at the same time as my machine from them.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

kitchang said:


> hi, can lelit PLA930M 70L filter be used on mara x?
> 
> I find a review mention it will have pressure problem.
> 
> pla930s 35L filter are almost out of stock. I just can buy the 70L water filter.


 Someone mentioned this as a possibility of the steam issues they were having, and *maybe* as a source of the odd pressure fluctuation observed.

please note the adverbs used. This is someone trying to figure things out; doesn't mean that *IS *the root cause of the symptoms. Appreciate if you were not following the thread, you might have taken in as a fact. Thankfully, I don't think it is. 👍



DavecUK said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> I can't see why it would be a problem...which review mentions this?


 @kitchang - this is the post I originally thought you were referencing to:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/56880-mara-x-steam-issue/page/12/?do=embed#comments


----------



## kitchang

DavecUK said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> I can't see why it would be a problem...which review mentions this?


 this one.

"Large water-filter was creating too much resistance. So I switched back to small filter."


----------



## DavecUK

I'm wondering if the filter was airlocked...e.g. not properly pre-soaked before installing? I would be surprised if resistance is the problem. I don't use in tank filters though (personally don't like them) I have RO, so I don't really have any test data. Although I do believe the draw on the quietX pump is higher than on a standard pump.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

kitchang said:


> this one.
> 
> "Large water-filter was creating too much resistance. So I switched back to small filter."


 Oh blimey! That's defo a blockage or an airlock. There are a few people here who use the filters without issues.


----------



## kitchang

Thanks all 👅

So I can use the 70L filters now. 👏


----------



## Merchant-Seaman

Merchant-Seaman said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm new to the forum, so first things first hello! I'm currently running a Lelit Mara X and Niche Zero on the way in Feb...
> 
> I'm having a bit of an issue recently with the Mara X. This seemed to start out of nowhere one day, after not doing anything different with the machine. Usually during warm up (in brew temp priority, temp setting 0), I hear steam building and briefly exiting the system, then the steam pressure gauge will go up to 3 bar and slowly fall back down to about 0.5 bar or maybe slightly over within about 30 minutes.
> 
> In recent days, the steam pressure gauge will go up to well beyond the 3 bar maximum, to the point that it's in line with about 13 bar on the pump pressure gauge. At this point there's steam firing out of the machine and a bit of a whistling noise. It calms down on its own but it's concerning, and then takes well over the usual 30 minutes to reduce steam pressure, to the point that it usually sits at about 1bar rather than 0.5bar.
> 
> Video here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apologies, I only caught the end of the mad steam and only caught it in vertical video, but you get the point!
> 
> The machine is less than 2 months old from BB in the UK, and until the last few days has been flawless. I've backflushed with water every couple of days and a couple of times with puly caff. I'm using the in-tank water filter. I tried draining the tank and HX as shown in the Lelit Insider YouTube videos, but that didn't change anything. There doesn't appear to be any leaks as far as I can see. It's just very worrying when it's whining away as it warms up.
> 
> Does anyone have any idea what this could be/if it's an easy fix or if I should just get it back to BellaBarista to look at? Tried phoning them but they're naturally all away at the moment. Any help appreciated.
> 
> Thanks.


 Just to close the loop on this one for anyone interested - Machine is back from BB following repair.

Apparently some faulty temp sensors got into the supply chain in my batch (wasn't just me that had this high pressure issue).

All working normally now. Time for some coffee!


----------



## zellleonhart

CoffeeTim said:


> For the time being, if you want to continue brewing your espresso, I recommend you to switch to Steam priority until you get proper fix from Lelit.


 Hi Tim, it seems like the problem just happened again today, and it happened totally at random. At X mode (Brew priority and temp #1) after 45 minutes of warm up while being idle, the steam pressure still shows 2.6 bar instead of dropping to below 1 bar, and group head flush shows boiling & steaming water.

After releasing some steam and flushing more water it went down to 1.5 bar (steam boiler already kicks in so it won't go back down to 1 bar), I suppose this lowers the group head temp a bit but it's a fuss in the morning rather than just "walk up and pull a shot".

My country doesn't have an official Lelit distributor, I got it in through a reseller/importer and if any warranty fixes I have to go through a lot of hassles. Is there anyway for me to try troubleshoot by myself?

EDIT: I asked my reseller, he said it could be due to me using RO water (I use something similar to the Osmio Zero but different brand). He said that RO water's TDS is too low and the probe might not detect sometimes, causing it to keep heating. But I don't hear the boiler refilling, only the heating is affected. I don't think water plays a role here?


----------



## CoffeeTim

zellleonhart said:


> Hi Tim, it seems like the problem just happened again today, and it happened totally at random. At X mode (Brew priority and temp #1) after 45 minutes of warm up while being idle, the steam pressure still shows 2.6 bar instead of dropping to below 1 bar, and group head flush shows boiling & steaming water.
> After releasing some steam and flushing more water it went down to 1.5 bar (steam boiler already kicks in so it won't go back down to 1 bar), I suppose this lowers the group head temp a bit but it's a fuss in the morning rather than just "walk up and pull a shot".
> My country doesn't have an official Lelit distributor, I got it in through a reseller/importer and if any warranty fixes I have to go through a lot of hassles. Is there anyway for me to try troubleshoot by myself?
> 
> EDIT: I asked my reseller, he said it could be due to me using RO water (I use something similar to the Osmio Zero but different brand). He said that RO water's TDS is too low and the probe might not detect sometimes, causing it to keep heating. But I don't hear the boiler refilling, only the heating is affected. I don't think water plays a role here?


I don't think it has anything to do with the water too... I would like to know if it happens in steam priority?

If it doesn't, Most probabbly it's the TC(thermocouple) of the brew tube... I am saying this based on my knowledge on my carreer as a commercial boiler and furnace engineer.

From reading ur problem, there could be the problem of the controller, but the first thing that comes to my mind is the TC detectingow temperature. Can be damaged or short circuited in the middle.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## zellleonhart

CoffeeTim said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with the water too... I would like to know if it happens in steam priority?
> 
> If it doesn't, Most probabbly it's the TC(thermocouple) of the brew tube... I am saying this based on my knowledge on my carreer as a commercial boiler and furnace engineer.
> 
> From reading ur problem, there could be the problem of the controller, but the first thing that comes to my mind is the TC detectingow temperature. Can be damaged or short circuited in the middle.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


 After cooling down for 2 hours, I switched on using steam priority mode and after 30 mins, the steam pressure shows 1.5~1.6 bar on idle which seems working as intended, but flushing the group head still shows bubbling (boiling) water - not sure is it normal under steam priority mode.

I then switched back to brew/coffee priority mode and left for 15 mins, steam pressure dropped down to below 1 bar as it should - so again the issue is gone by its own. But I can't be sure is it the controller or TC in fault. I have contacted my reseller and while he recommended to change water (doubt it affects anything), he will contact Lelit on my behalf if it happens again and if I can record a video.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

zellleonhart said:


> the steam pressure shows 1.5~1.6 bar on idle which seems working as intended, but flushing the group head still shows bubbling (boiling) water - not sure is it normal under steam priority mode.


 It's absolutely normal. The higher the temperature of the water inside the HX, the longer the flush of water at room temperature inside the tank you'll need in order to bring the temperature of the water at the group down. It's plain physics. At 1.6bar the temperature of the water inside the HX is like 130C, and that's also heating up the group at that temperature. It's plain physics. There's nothing wrong there. You'd be wasting your time contacting them.


----------



## zellleonhart

MediumRoastSteam said:


> It's absolutely normal. The higher the temperature of the water inside the HX, the longer the flush of water at room temperature inside the tank you'll need in order to bring the temperature of the water at the group down. It's plain physics. At 1.6bar the temperature of the water inside the HX is like 130C, and that's also heating up the group at that temperature. It's plain physics. There's nothing wrong there. You'd be wasting your time contacting them.


 Totally understand, I am not so worried about the HX mode, I was trying out HX mode to see if there's a problem as well. The random problem is mainly with the brew priority mode (pasted again below)



> At X mode (Brew priority and temp #1) after 45 minutes of warm up while being idle, the steam pressure still shows 2.6 bar instead of dropping to below 1 bar, and group head flush shows boiling & steaming water.
> 
> After releasing some steam and flushing more water it went down to 1.5 bar (steam boiler already kicks in so it won't go back down to 1 bar), I suppose this lowers the group head temp a bit but it's a fuss in the morning rather than just "walk up and pull a shot".


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

zellleonhart said:


> the steam pressure still shows 2.6 bar instead of dropping to below 1 bar,


 yeah. that's not right. I'm wondering whether you also suffer from a faulty temp probe. There were a few problematic machines recently and the replacement of the temp probe fixed the issues they have, mainly related to steam. There's a thread called "MaraX steam issues" or something like that. Check the last couple of pages.


----------



## itguy

This would make sense if there is a problem with the HX temp sensor rather than the steam/boiler temp sensor - as presumably in steam priority mode (HX mode) the PID only uses the boiler/steam sensor.


----------



## zellleonhart

MediumRoastSteam said:


> yeah. that's not right. I'm wondering whether you also suffer from a faulty temp probe. There were a few problematic machines recently and the replacement of the temp probe fixed the issues they have, mainly related to steam. There's a thread called "MaraX steam issues" or something like that. Check the last couple of pages.


 Yes I was following closely in the thread, and I am very worried if that's the case - because it will be difficult for me to send for repair. But I have contact my local reseller, if it happens again I will take a video and the reseller can help me to get it sorted out.


----------



## Doram

zellleonhart said:


> Yes I was following closely in the thread, and I am very worried if that's the case - because it will be difficult for me to send for repair. But I have contact my local reseller, if it happens again I will take a video and the reseller can help me to get it sorted out.


 Do you know when your machine was made? I think the machines that had the temp sensor replaced were all relatively new (2-3 months old). It's a shot in the dark, but might be helpful to narrow down the batch that had this issue, if you have it too.


----------



## CoffeeTim

zellleonhart said:


> After cooling down for 2 hours, I switched on using steam priority mode and after 30 mins, the steam pressure shows 1.5~1.6 bar on idle which seems working as intended, but flushing the group head still shows bubbling (boiling) water - not sure is it normal under steam priority mode.
> I then switched back to brew/coffee priority mode and left for 15 mins, steam pressure dropped down to below 1 bar as it should - so again the issue is gone by its own. But I can't be sure is it the controller or TC in fault. I have contacted my reseller and while he recommended to change water (doubt it affects anything), he will contact Lelit on my behalf if it happens again and if I can record a video.


1.5-1.6bar of steam pressure in the boiler is equivalent to 127-128°C. Then the temperature will heat up the water in the brew tube... Eventually water in the brew tube will get overheated over time and boils... After you brew, dispensed hot water is replaced with new low temperature water and there will be huge amount of heat transfered into the brew tube. thus causing the pressure to drop.

That's how it's designed to work.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## CoffeeTim

If it doesn't happen frequently, it can be some contact issue on the TC or on the controller. If it's not under warranty, u can open up and have a look. take a picture of the HX and all the wires connected to it.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## zellleonhart

Doram said:


> Do you know when your machine was made? I think the machines that had the temp sensor replaced were all relatively new (2-3 months old). It's a shot in the dark, but might be helpful to narrow down the batch that had this issue, if you have it too.


 It was the Oct 2020 batch. As @itguy said it could be the HX temp sensor instead of the steam/boiler temp sensor being at fault.



CoffeeTim said:


> If it doesn't happen frequently, it can be some contact issue on the TC or on the controller. If it's not under warranty, u can open up and have a look. take a picture of the HX and all the wires connected to it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


 I will open up the case and take a good look this weekend. As this screenshot from the Mara X Technical Documentation - https://i.imgur.com/iQOhoKc.jpeg Which part should I take note of?

If you could circle or point out the component code it will be great. Thanks a lot for your help!


----------



## itguy

9600092


----------



## CoffeeTim

itguy said:


> 9600092


Agreed. This is the temperature sensor. Check the plastic socket if there is any liquid or short circuit along the wire to the body.

Meanwhile, brew hour espresso with Steam priority.









Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## zellleonhart

CoffeeTim said:


> Agreed. This is the temperature sensor. Check the plastic socket if there is any liquid or short circuit along the wire to the body.
> 
> Meanwhile, brew hour espresso with Steam priority.


 I couldn't wait until weekend so just spent some time opening up and checked thoroughly. Please see the album here:


http://imgur.com/FhmE80r


There isn't any sign of water leak that could cause short circuit. I did the OPV reroute mod earlier and the connectors seem to be still tightly secured. I secured further with cable ties just now to be sure.

After reassembling back I warmed up the machine for 35 minutes - doesn't happen now, steam pressure went down to below 1 bar after the initial heat up.


----------



## DavecUK

@zellleonhart No photos show at that link for me


----------



## zellleonhart

DavecUK said:


> @zellleonhart No photos show at that link for me


 Weird, it still shows at that link. Anyway, I have updated my post with the photos uploaded directly


----------



## CoffeeTim

zellleonhart said:


> I couldn't wait until weekend so just spent some time opening up and checked thoroughly. Please see the album here:
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/FhmE80r
> 
> There isn't any sign of water leak that could cause short circuit. I did the OPV reroute mod earlier and the connectors seem to be still tightly secured. I secured further with cable ties just now to be sure.
> After reassembling back I warmed up the machine for 35 minutes - doesn't happen now, steam pressure went down to below 1 bar after the initial heat up.
> <img alt="photo_2021-01-19_23-45-39.thumb.jpg.52de9a84c316f6dfb9a4a0c7fe6f529d.jpg" data-fileid="51430" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_01/photo_2021-01-19_23-45-39.thumb.jpg.52de9a84c316f6dfb9a4a0c7fe6f529d.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="photo_2021-01-19_23-45-47.thumb.jpg.fcb158682df35ed4f709f4e3f9efa1cd.jpg" data-fileid="51431" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_01/photo_2021-01-19_23-45-47.thumb.jpg.fcb158682df35ed4f709f4e3f9efa1cd.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="photo_2021-01-19_23-45-44.thumb.jpg.30958dc7dbb5c9652d966a6a819629a6.jpg" data-fileid="51432" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_01/photo_2021-01-19_23-45-44.thumb.jpg.30958dc7dbb5c9652d966a6a819629a6.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


The sensor is at the bottom of the boiler

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## zellleonhart

CoffeeTim said:


> The sensor is at the bottom of the boiler


 Yes this is the bottom of the boiler, in case it wasn't obvious. You can see in the first photo - I removed the bottom squarish plate to reveal the bottom of the boiler. The red cable coming out is the temp probe.


----------



## CoffeeTim

zellleonhart said:


> Yes this is the bottom of the boiler, in case it wasn't obvious. You can see in the first photo - I removed the bottom squarish plate to reveal the bottom of the boiler. The red cable coming out is the temp probe.


u can have multimeter to test the resistance. when u burn the temperature sensor tip, resistance should rise.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## zellleonhart

CoffeeTim said:


> u can have multimeter to test the resistance. when u burn the temperature sensor tip, resistance should rise.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


 I don't have a multimeter and I don't think I am courageous enough to test it in this way. Anyway at least I know this is the component to change if the issue happens again. Thanks!


----------



## CoffeeTim

zellleonhart said:


> I don't have a multimeter and I don't think I am courageous enough to test it in this way. Anyway at least I know this is the component to change if the issue happens again. Thanks!


Best is to let Lelit decides what to do next. All the best.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## itguy

I am wondering if anyone has experimented much with IMS shower screens and VST baskets on their MaraX ?

I have an IMS 35 screen and a VST 18g ridgeless, and I typically dose 18g.

I have a feeling that this is too much with this combo and it might be adding additional pressure to my puck and affecting my shots.

For the next few days I have installed my standard MaraX shower screen back in and will keep with my VST 18g and dosing at 18g to see what changes.

Anyone out there already worked through all of this? I'm also wondering if an IMS 200 screen would be better - not sure why, just wondered....


----------



## zellleonhart

itguy said:


> I am wondering if anyone has experimented much with IMS shower screens and VST baskets on their MaraX ?
> 
> I have an IMS 35 screen and a VST 18g ridgeless, and I typically dose 18g.
> 
> I have a feeling that this is too much with this combo and it might be adding additional pressure to my puck and affecting my shots.
> 
> For the next few days I have installed my standard MaraX shower screen back in and will keep with my VST 18g and dosing at 18g to see what changes.
> 
> Anyone out there already worked through all of this? I'm also wondering if an IMS 200 screen would be better - not sure why, just wondered....


 I installed the IMS 200 screen and 18g VST basket recently. I haven't had much success without the shot channeling or being inconsistent regardless my grind being coarser or finer. I use the exact same puck prep as before including WDT using 0.4mm needles.

This is a typical shot I pull (recorded today) - https://streamable.com/f2vkr9

I am not sure if VST baskets highlight the inconsistency grinding of my grinder - it's a Eureka Mignon MK2. However I did have pretty good shots using the Lelit basket.

I do enjoy using VST mainly because it's much easier to clean (the pucks come out nicely). Do let me know what you think. I can't experiment for the next few days as I'm sending my Mara X to the retailer. It has the steam over pressure issue.


----------



## itguy

Interesting. I'll see how I get on with the VST / stock shower screen combo and take things from there.


----------



## KyNg

itguy said:


> Interesting. I'll see how I get on with the VST / stock shower screen combo and take things from there.


 Keep us update please.. i use ims 200NT and vst 15 and vst 18 mostly on 18 and do the upgrade from mignon to niche like you as well. Still working on the bar pressure that's sometimes not going to 10 and goes lower after reaching 10 not stable on 10.. maybe because of channeling as well i dont know still wondering.. because sometimes can get good result as well.. my workflow is quite good enough i thought blind shaker, wdt, tapping, cheap leveler, lelit tamper without polish.. hmm.. puck also looks good.. will try again tomorrow on new fresh beans. Wish me luck..


----------



## OF90

jousis said:


> A quick note on the electronics for those getting the PID debug in case you haven't seen it already.
> 
> lever button (at least) is 5V, I repeat, button is *DC*5V.
> 
> So, get those shot timers rolling... 😉
> 
> ps. I will have soon an esp32 (BLE + mobile / MQTT + cloud) firmware plus the mobile app (ionic/capacitor).
> All open source (MIT). I will inform asap but for those that want the C code to play on their own:
> 
> https://gitlab.com/jousis/marax_visualizer


 Hello jousis,

are you sure of that? Have you measured it? I asked Lelit Support and they gave me this answer.



> MaraX works with DC tension. The micro works with mains voltage.
> 
> Take care!


 That´s why I am confused.

Greetings OF


----------



## jousis

OF90 said:


> Hello jousis,
> 
> are you sure of that? Have you measured it? I asked Lelit Support and they gave me this answer.
> 
> That´s why I am confused.
> 
> Greetings OF


 *I am not an EE. Listen to them, not me.*

I never opened the micro box, don't really want to loose time with these machines 

Switch had 5VDC passing through, led 12VDC, SSR 12VDC IIRC.

Anyway, since everyone uses reed sensors, I did the same and changed my code so we can all (DIYers) be at the same page.

Until the manufacturers decide to enter the 21st century and give us modern electronics.


----------



## OF90

jousis said:


> *I am not an EE. Listen to them, not me.*
> 
> I never opened the micro box, don't really want to loose time with these machines
> 
> Switch had 5VDC passing through, led 12VDC, SSR 12VDC IIRC.
> 
> Anyway, since everyone uses reed sensors, I did the same and changed my code so we can all (DIYers) be at the same page.
> 
> Until the manufacturers decide to enter the 21st century and give us modern electronics.


 Thank you for the answer.

Then they may have misunderstood my question or don´t have specific information about the parts, because I asked them specifically about Part 9600080. But when the switch has 5VDC I like it, because my reed sensor does not work all the time. In the first 45min after switching the machine on it works most of the time. But after a longer time it stops working with the reed sensor. Sometimes it does not start or stops after 17sec.

Thats why I ordered an optocoupler (still waiting for it). But the brewing switch would be a cleaner setup to trip the shot counter and no 230V.


----------



## jousis

OF90 said:


> Thats why I ordered an optocoupler (still waiting for it). But the brewing switch would be a cleaner setup to trip the shot counter and no 230V.


 I had opto circuit in my previous lelit and with mara for a little. I found no real benefit over the reed in the long run.

Sure, in theory it is accurate (while reed is not) but with some interrupts and basic code, reed is good enough.

Maybe your placement is not correct ? try twisting the sensor 90degrees. Or get another one, without the plastic housing.
Also, get a proven code that works ok , for example marax_timer by alexrus works 100% as is. Mine also works but my software is bloated, if you want only a timer it does not worth the hassle.


----------



## OF90

jousis said:


> I had opto circuit in my previous lelit and with mara for a little. I found no real benefit over the reed in the long run.
> 
> Sure, in theory it is accurate (while reed is not) but with some interrupts and basic code, reed is good enough.
> 
> Maybe your placement is not correct ? try twisting the sensor 90degrees. Or get another one, without the plastic housing.
> Also, get a proven code that works ok , for example marax_timer by alexrus works 100% as is. Mine also works but my software is bloated, if you want only a timer it does not worth the hassle.


 Should have mentioned it. At the moment I use marax_timer by alexrus. Just my reed sensor does not work properly. Maybe it is the placement on the pump and i have to change it or the reed sensor is faulty. Or it is to hot for the sensor. I use a cheap senor called MC-38. What kind of reed sensor do you use?

Great to see all the projects for the Lelit Mara X.


----------



## jousis

OF90 said:


> What kind of reed sensor do you use?


 I have 2 random with plastic housing (like in alarms), one inside glass tube. All worked OK with maras pump.
I think I left inside the plastic one, similar to yours.

See the photos on the project (marax_timer) and place it at the same spot. Put the alu foil also and make sureit doesn't touch any brass that gets hot.

And check that your cable is not melting or anything.


----------



## ChrisKon

Hey everyone, Happy Friday!

I'm generally someone that takes my time, have to answer urgent calls and also have a 3 year old that seems to want my attention everytime i want to make a coffee!

The above can sometimes impact my workflow especially when dialling in and have noticed my shots sometime feel hotter than they should be!! (Next time I'll stick in a thermometer in) I think this is because I'm taking more than 5 mins between pulling shots which I know in the Mara Xs case, you have to wait 15 mins for temp to stabilise back to the intended brew temp range.

I wanted to ask, for whatever reason you'll be longer than 5 mins between pulling shots, would you give the Mara a quick flush to bring temp down and "reset" the 5 minute window?


----------



## DavecUK

@ChrisKon You can flush it down, just like any other HX


----------



## ChrisKon

DavecUK said:


> @ChrisKon You can flush it down, just like any other HX


 @DavecUK I gathered that was the case, just need to keep an eye on time if I'm pulled else where. Nice one Dave.


----------



## Mannion

Has anyone had problems with the pump staying on after pulling a shot despite pushing the lever right down? It has just started to happen to my machine in the last couple of days, the first time my partner didn't know what to do so just powered off the machine. The second time (a day later) I lifted the lever back up and down again and that sorted it.

Is there any basic maintenance I could be doing or is it one for Bella Barista if it continues to happen? It's my first machine so not sure how common things like this are


----------



## DavecUK

@Mannion either a sticky brew switch or it needs a very minor adjustment inwards


----------



## cuprajake

Some one recently had issusew with the switch, its the spring switch behind the lever. If you take the lever off there adjustable with two small nuts
View attachment 50819


----------



## cuprajake

The marax has a roller on the end but same thing


----------



## PD2020

Garfield said:


> Yes. I have sent them everything, machine, grinder and coffee, even tamper 🙂
> 
> They tried first with my setup and found that salty taste in espresso. Then they adjusted it by lowering the pressure and increasing temp to 2 and said that coffee is great, like a juice. 8 people in service tried and said that it is great.


 This is exactly the issue I'm getting with pretty much any coffee around 1:2 - 1:2.5. Plenty of saltiness.

Going up to 1:5 gives nice shots. I wouldn't call them sweet though, even with coffees that are described as sweet.

Recently I lowered my temperature to 92*C and I was pleased to find out it finally got rid of that 'itchy throat' sensation when drinking espresso as well as boosted aromas and flavour notes in some coffees (noticeable for 1:3 to 1:5 ratios). I was actually quite impressed with how nicely some Ethiopian coffees can smell. I never got that at 94*C.

But I still get heavily salty shots around more typical ratios of 1:2-1:2.5, like @Garfield and his flat-burr Eureka. I imagine @skylark might be in the same boat too. It doesn't make sense that we *have to* go to 1:5 to get into the tasty zone for every single coffee.

@jaffro - you're on MaraX, Niche, VST - you wouldn't describe your shots as salty at around your typical 1:2.25 ratio, would you?


----------



## MWJB

PD2020 said:


> It doesn't make sense that we *have to* go to 1:5 to get into the tasty zone for every single coffee.


 If you find that more often than not, 1:5 gives better results, what kind of coffee are you anticipating to use, that will allow you to extract at much shorter ratios?

If you have had great shots at 1:2 to 1:2.5, why aren't you sticking with that coffee/roaster?

You can always pull at these shorter ratios, or less, but you might have to compromise on extraction/time.


----------



## jaffro

PD2020 said:


> This is exactly the issue I'm getting with pretty much any coffee around 1:2 - 1:2.5. Plenty of saltiness.
> 
> Going up to 1:5 gives nice shots. I wouldn't call them sweet though, even with coffees that are described as sweet.
> 
> Recently I lowered my temperature to 92*C and I was pleased to find out it finally got rid of that 'itchy throat' sensation when drinking espresso as well as boosted aromas and flavour notes in some coffees (noticeable for 1:3 to 1:5 ratios). I was actually quite impressed with how nicely some Ethiopian coffees can smell. I never got that at 94*C.
> 
> But I still get heavily salty shots around more typical ratios of 1:2-1:2.5, like @Garfield and his flat-burr Eureka. I imagine @skylark might be in the same boat too. It doesn't make sense that we *have to* go to 1:5 to get into the tasty zone for every single coffee.
> 
> @jaffro - you're on MaraX, Niche, VST - you wouldn't describe your shots as salty at around your typical 1:2.25 ratio, would you?


 Hmm interesting!

For anyone's reference I'm on MaraX, Niche and a 15g VST (that may make a difference, imagine most are on 18g).

My "go to" recipe is 16:36 in around 36-40 seconds and I generally work from there. Feel like I should be able to get a good shot in that region without having to go to longer shots to balance them out. Pretty much always on the 94 degree setting.

I definitely wouldn't say I'm getting "salty" shots in that range with most coffees, apart from with the recent LSOL offering, which many people reported a saltiness until suitably rested. That was an anomoly though!

I do find with some light roasts that I sometimes struggle to hit the sweet spot. Too fast a shot and the sourness kicks in, too slow and I get a slight ashiness in the background, which milk covers up, but doesn't give me exactly what I'm after in straight espresso. Getting a middle ground can be challenging for sure.

My resounding success recently was with a washed Ethiopian from Moon roast, which was must have been the perfect balance of florals and milk chocolate. Worked absolutely perfectly with this set up. Think it was just a very slightly darker roast than I usually get (still very much a medium roast though) which still showcased all the subtle florals whilst being easy to extract.

@PD2020 What beans are you getting salty shots from? I could get the same and see what I can make from it?


----------



## kitchang

When my mara x eco mode is enable, I can hear the pump sound and little water come in drip tray from opv every 10 or 15mins during standby.

However, after I disable the eco mode, it never happen again during standby.

Also, I find even the mara x is turn off, little water would come in drip tray from opv.

Is it normal? Thank you.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

kitchang said:


> When my mara x eco mode is enable, I can hear the pump sound and little water come in drip tray from opv every 10 or 15mins during standby.
> 
> However, after I disable the eco mode, it never happen again during standby.
> 
> Also, I find even the mara x is turn off, little water would come in drip tray from opv.
> 
> Is it normal? Thank you.


 Are you sure you have the ECO mode settings correct? My understanding is that, when in eco mode, the machine is technically off (heating elements, etc, etc) so there's no reason why the pump should kick in from time to time. It makes no sense. The machine is actually cooling down no different as if it were actually off.

Now, when not in eco mode - I.e: just ON, the machine will dump the water from the HX in order to avoid overheating from time to time. I am unsure of the frequency though.

The only reason "little water would come in drip tray" if the machine is off is the hoses draining into it because the water is cooling down and due to gravity alone.


----------



## Baffo

A quick question from a non-owner. When it comes to pre-infusion and profiling, is it customisable, and, how does it differ (if at all) from the Elizabeth?

It's more out of curiosity other than anything, as I'm wanting to learn the ins and outs of a few machines, I've read the product page on BB but it doesn't go in great detail other than the following: "MaraX's double pressure gauge allows you to control both the steam boiler pressure and the pump pressure. The brewing process starts from the pre-infusion and ends with the coffee being poured straight into the cup."


----------



## kitchang

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Are you sure you have the ECO mode settings correct? My understanding is that, when in eco mode, the machine is technically off (heating elements, etc, etc) so there's no reason why the pump should kick in from time to time. It makes no sense. The machine is actually cooling down no different as if it were actually off.
> 
> Now, when not in eco mode - I.e: just ON, the machine will dump the water from the HX in order to avoid overheating from time to time. I am unsure of the frequency though.
> 
> The only reason "little water would come in drip tray" if the machine is off is the hoses draining into it because the water is cooling down and due to gravity alone.


 sorry, i describe wrong. it should be On, not eco mode.

Another issue is my mara x seems much louder than before. I am not sure. I will measure the dB tonight.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

kitchang said:


> sorry, i describe wrong. it should be On, not eco mode.
> 
> Another issue is my mara x seems much louder than before. I am not sure. I will measure the dB tonight.


 So nothing wrong then?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Baffo said:


> A quick question from a non-owner. When it comes to pre-infusion and profiling, is it customisable, and, how does it differ (if at all) from the Elizabeth?
> 
> It's more out of curiosity other than anything, as I'm wanting to learn the ins and outs of a few machines, I've read the product page on BB but it doesn't go in great detail other than the following: "MaraX's double pressure gauge allows you to control both the steam boiler pressure and the pump pressure. The brewing process starts from the pre-infusion and ends with the coffee being poured straight into the cup."


 Did you read DavecUK's review of this machine? It goes into a lot of detail. Just click on the "closer look" link on the BB product page.

As for customisation for pre-infusion and profiling... No. it's not customisable. You lift the lever and the machine will do it's job. You can't change it as such. The only way to customise it is to add a Lelit flow control kit, like the Bianca.


----------



## kitchang

MediumRoastSteam said:


> So nothing wrong then?


 seems no problem


----------



## zellleonhart

Lelit Insider posted an interesting video today! To summarize:

- a new "Caffe Plus" mode replacing the traditional HX mode which provides even more accurate brew temp at the expense of steam power (heating element will be off when the lever is Up)

- he showed a LCC with a modified programming to directly work with the Mara X with just a cable attachment!

@DavecUK Is this something you have tested with recently? 😛 If it's confidential, it's okay. Just wondering if the new software (when released with future Mara X models) can be flashed easily to the older versions and if this LCC can be obtained!

EDIT: The video is still up but it's unlisted hmm


----------



## DavecUK

> 58 minutes ago, zellleonhart said:


 Oh you mean this. Yeah had it since before Christmas (slightly earlier version of it, Installed the latest version a few days ago). I suggested the programming change to them shortly after the review as I didn't really see the need for HX mode. I don't believe that modded LCC will work with current MaraX software, although I could be wrong. It certainly didn't work with the original Gicar in the review machines.

As you can see it's not actually a product, *although I would like to see Lelit make it a product...the problem is the display has to be chopped (mine was done with snips or scissors) to open up the window to the (larger) OLED beneath.* I'm testing both the + mode and the standard BTP mode all the production machines have but with some tweaks

They probably made a mistake but I guess the photo you posted can't be unseen. The software is still very much beta and being tested, which pushes any release some time off...and that's assuming there are no more tweaks. This is the second Gicar box I have installed now with a new version of the modified software...so it's already changed once.

It was confidential but of course..no longer. I'm not going to enter into any further discussion (especially as to how it works), because that might well become confidential

So I don't know if the LCC will become a product...I hope so, but that's probably a long way off because of the way it's installed.

The software intelligence that controls MaraX is within the Gicar box, they can be flashed but I suspect it's beyond the dealer competence level to do so. I know how to flash them but I don't have the kit for these particular Gicar units. The simplest route will be replacing the existing Gicar box. *When/if the software is finally available, which could be much much later this year, or even next year.* So no point in waiting for a MaraX with the revised software on it, because it may never be released, or could be a very long time.

P.S. Development can take a lot longer than people think


----------



## zellleonhart

Thanks for the write up @DavecUK. It is not a huge issue even if the new software is not available or easily flashed to the older Mara X, as the current Brew Priority Mode is already very good. I am just happy that Lelit is constantly improving their machines and listening to the users.

The info provided by that modded LCC can already be done with projects like https://github.com/alexrus/marax_timer, so it's fine too. After all, the Mara X is meant to be a no-fuss, simple walk up machine. Anything like this is just extra good-to-have.


----------



## DavecUK

@zellleonhart It was mainly done to facilitate development and testing. In the real world, apart from a shot times, I don't know how interesting it will be long term.


----------



## jousis

zellleonhart said:


> The info provided by that modded LCC can already be done with projects like https://github.com/alexrus/marax_timer, so it's fine too. After all, the Mara X is meant to be a no-fuss, simple walk up machine. Anything like this is just extra good-to-have.


 Unfortunately they do not provide shot timer in the current debug output so we have to install other sensors.
Flashing on gicar is done with AVR ISP (probably), not difficult to do, but I don't see them releasing f/w.

If you make 2-3-4 espressos back 2 back the current output is useful, you can see the machine boosting out of the stable phase before it does. You can even have it mail you when is warmed up/stable. You don't have to count minutes in order to be in the sweetspot, etc.
You can see some graphs here.


----------



## zellleonhart

jousis said:


> Unfortunately they do not provide shot timer in the current debug output so we have to install other sensors.
> Flashing on gicar is done with AVR ISP (probably), not difficult to do, but I don't see them releasing f/w.
> 
> If you make 2-3-4 espressos back 2 back the current output is useful, you can see the machine boosting out of the stable phase before it does. You can even have it mail you when is warmed up/stable. You don't have to count minutes in order to be in the sweetspot, etc.
> You can see some graphs here.


 I saw your project! It is nice but I went for a simpler set up with alexrus' Mara X timer. After 40min of warm up it's always in the sweet spot, so I just use my wifi plug to turn on the machine earlier.

The current temperature output definitely helps when I pull back to back shots, I can see it going up almost 1C per min after the 2nd minute past the first shot. But mine doesn't keep stable at 95C until the 14th min, I think it went up more than that. I should test it again!

The only pet peeves I have is that I cannot pull a shot > steam > pull a shot > steam while having the perfect temperature window. After the first steaming the HX temp will go up beyond acceptable level and I am simply not fast enough to prep the second puck.

2 shots back-to-back > steam milk is better but if I were to make 3 or 4 milk drinks, I can figure the best workflow.


----------



## jousis

zellleonhart said:


> I saw your project! It is nice but I went for a simpler set up with alexrus' Mara X timer.


 It doesn't matter, the main point of open source is free knowledge for all !
(but you will rue the day... 😈)



zellleonhart said:


> The current temperature output definitely helps when I pull back to back shots, I can see it going up almost 1C per min after the 2nd minute past the first shot. But mine doesn't keep stable at 95C until the 14th min, I think it went up more than that. I should test it again!


 Remember that this is the HX temp, not the group/coffee temp, the huge brass mass of the group will play a bigger role at some point.

I also do at most 2 espressos + milk , then let it rest, have it notify me when in "settled mode" again, and I come back for the rest.


----------



## zellleonhart

@jousis
is the indicator for "settled mode" the HX temperature? I tried today - pulled a shot and steamed milk, then left it to wait until the HX temperature stabilises to my set temp (setting 0 which is 91-92°C).

It actually took about 35 minutes since the last shot for it to reach 92°C instead of around 15 minutes.

Or is there another indicator other than the HX temp that shows the mode is "settled"?


----------



## jousis

@zellleonhart yes, the "0" setpoint takes longer and has bigger swing.
I am almost always at "1" , I haven't really noticed it. But I checked my data history and you are right.

Not a big problem, they will fix it with a firmware upgr...oh wait... 🤣


----------



## zellleonhart

jousis said:


> @zellleonhart yes, the "0" setpoint takes longer and has bigger swing.
> I am almost always at "1" , I haven't really noticed it. But I checked my data history and you are right.
> 
> Not a big problem, they will fix it with a firmware upgr...oh wait... 🤣


 Ha! No wonder, I realise it takes slightly longer during warm up to stabilize to 92C too. Might use setting "1" now since I have a lighter roast beans this time.

I just hope that the "perfect temp window" after a shot is slightly longer, but well it's still an HX machine anyway.


----------



## jousis

zellleonhart said:


> I just hope that the "perfect temp window" after a shot is slightly longer, but well it's still an HX machine anyway.


 But you don't have to guess and hope anymore.
You have the debug info in your screen (HX temp from alexrus/marax_timer) and can indirectly manipulate it using flushes.
Information is power 

edit: you can also buy a E61 thermometer for fun if you want (HX temp is impressively accurate).


----------



## zellleonhart

@itguy How's your testing of the combination of IMS shower screen and VST baskets? I have been using IMS IM200 + VST 18g and channeling is almost always constant, regardless how I puck prep (WDT, level tamping etc).

I start to think it's my grinder instead of puck prep.


----------



## Glen

Hi, I'm new to this forum, I recently purchased a Mara X, about a month ago. I've been loving it, coming from a Breville Dual Boiler for many years.

But suddenly my mara is having a problem which I've now discovered has happened to at least one other person out there.

When heating up from cold (it doesn't happen if heating up from being turned off but not fully cold again) it over-pressurises to the point that the steam pressure gauge needle is right off the scale, and then the pressure release valve starts blowing off into the drip tray and it makes an annoying trumpet noise which wakes us up (machine is on wifi timer switch) and dog barks at it.

The pressure releases for maybe 10 seconds and then stops. See my video here where I caught it on camera, and for a second you can see the pressure gauge (I didn't notice at the time, or I would have made a point of showing it close up on video).






I've heard back from Lelit that they think this issue will be resolved by replacing the temperature probe #9600092 as well as the electronics card.

I would really appreciate knowing any details of others who have been through this problem already so I can refer my retailer to it so that they can see how it's been dealt with before. Thanks.

Further to this point, which may or may not be related, I had a strange little computer fault with it the day before this over pressure problem presented itself.

I poured about 100ml of water from the hot water spout, and then the boiler fill pump kicked in, but it ran and ran and didn't stop when it usually would have. I let it run about double how long felt right, and then switched off the machine.

After waiting for about 10 seconds I turned it back on, and all of the LEDs were flashing. I checked the book for the meaning of this error and it says there has been something go wrong with boiler filling level.

I switched it off and on again, and this time the power saving mode, pulsing of the power switch LED showed up. I lifted the coffee handle to see if it would wake from this mode but no response. So I restarted again, and then the 3 LEDs were all flashing agian. I tried switching to 0 the "X mode" switch, and turned it off and on again, same result. I switched the X mode back on, and tried the restart again, no good.

I then removed the water tank and pressed my finger up into the water valve to see if water was coming out ok, and it was clean. Water came out no problems. I replaced the tank and turned it back on again and this time it worked no problems.

I don't know if this fault could somehow be the original cause of the major over-pressurising fault that I have now, which occurred the very next morning. But it's a pretty interesting co-incidence if it isn't related. Since the Lelit technician that wrote back to me said that the electronics card should be replaced as well as the probe, I'm thinking that the problem could well be related though.


----------



## KyNg

zellleonhart said:


> @itguy How's your testing of the combination of IMS shower screen and VST baskets? I have been using IMS IM200 + VST 18g and channeling is almost always constant, regardless how I puck prep (WDT, level tamping etc).
> 
> I start to think it's my grinder instead of puck prep.


 Is IM200 better than NT?

I'm finally getting a good shot.. i notice that my voltage is not right here it's on 170v someting.. yesterday we put a big stabilizer for home then it's on 220v now.. and can pull a good shot.. so happy.. steam and bar pressure all good..

But 2 days ago I have installed an e61 thermometer.. set the brew priority on 0 meaning like 92.. but when i pull the shot why it showed 95 something.. is the thermometer at fault or what.. was wondering..


----------



## DavecUK

@Glen I'm pretty sure if you just replace the electronics card alone it will be fine. Try that first and leave the probe as it is....if it's all good, keep the probe as a spare.


----------



## zellleonhart

@Glen you are the replying to me in that reddit thread right? My reseller only replaced the steam boiler temperature probe, and it fixed all the issues. The electronics card (also called the Gicar box) was not replaced.

This should cover under the warranty and you should get both parts for free. Perhaps you can try replacing the probe first, and see if the problem persists. If no, then you can keep the electronics card as a spare.


----------



## Glen

@zellleonhart Thanks for that, yes I'm the one who replied to you on Reddit. Thanks for that. I will be very happy if they can send me the part to install myself, but I doubt they'll do that. Still waiting for them to email me back with what they want to do.


----------



## Merchant-Seaman

@Glen that was my reddit post, and indeed my MaraX was one of the ones in the bad batch of temperature probed-ones. Pretty sure it was just the temp sensor on mine that was replaced, with an ECM one, by Bella Barista in the UK. Has all been working perfectly since then.

And apologies for not responding on reddit, don't monitor it too much!


----------



## Glen

Merchant-Seaman said:


> @Glen that was my reddit post, and indeed my MaraX was one of the ones in the bad batch of temperature probed-ones. Pretty sure it was just the temp sensor on mine that was replaced, with an ECM one, by Bella Barista in the UK. Has all been working perfectly since then.
> 
> And apologies for not responding on reddit, don't monitor it too much!


 Thanks for the reply. Do you know if this is a very common fault? Is the probe that Lelit uses a low quality one? I have run a couple "tests" and found that the over-pressure problem only happens when heating up from cold.

Also I interrupted the process this morning deliberately when the pressure was approaching 3.5, I opened the hot water tap and let it pump out about 300ml.

This of course dropped the boiler pressure right down, and then it heated up normally again and never did the over-pressure fault.

Also, I switched it to Steam-Priority mode (0 on the right hand switch) and that stopped the pressure from rising any more when it was on it's way up towards over-pressure.

So if this is all caused by a faulty probe, why doesn't the probe cause malfunction at other times??


----------



## zellleonhart

@Glen I think it is only the recent batch (mine was October 2020 production) has the temp probe fault, so far I have seen about 5-6 people reported faulty probe. Some were having low steam power, while some like us - overheating.

It's not heard from earlier batches, maybe just one batch of bad sensors, fortunately it's easy to change. While you wait for the replacement, it is better to continue using in Steam Priority mode.

Mine had a similar trend only overpressure when it's starting from cold, but there was once after the first shot, the steam pressure shot up to 2.5 bar (should be 1.5).


----------



## Scottland

BB told me a couple of weeks ago that they're due a new shipment of these early March. Does anyone know if they're a new (improved?) batch, or is it unknown at this point?


----------



## Glen

zellleonhart said:


> @Glen I think it is only the recent batch (mine was October 2020 production) has the temp probe fault, so far I have seen about 5-6 people reported faulty probe. Some were having low steam power, while some like us - overheating.
> 
> It's not heard from earlier batches, maybe just one batch of bad sensors, fortunately it's easy to change. While you wait for the replacement, it is better to continue using in Steam Priority mode.
> 
> Mine had a similar trend only overpressure when it's starting from cold, but there was once after the first shot, the steam pressure shot up to 2.5 bar (should be 1.5).


 From your earlier posts, I learnt that the 9600092 probe is on the bottom of the boiler, but Lelit Insider on YouTube shows this probe being located on top, he even names the part number of the probe.






Anyone got any ideas what's going on here?


----------



## zellleonhart

Glen said:


> From your earlier posts, I learnt that the 9600092 probe is on the bottom of the boiler, but Lelit Insider on YouTube shows this probe being located on top, he even names the part number of the probe.
> Anyone got any ideas what's going on here?


 The top and bottom probes are both 9600092, they use the exact same component but one each on the top and bottom of the boiler. It looks identical as well from what I see in the video and compared to the bottom temp probe.


----------



## CoffeeTim

zellleonhart said:


> @Glen you are the replying to me in that reddit thread right? My reseller only replaced the steam boiler temperature probe, and it fixed all the issues. The electronics card (also called the Gicar box) was not replaced.
> This should cover under the warranty and you should get both parts for free. Perhaps you can try replacing the probe first, and see if the problem persists. If no, then you can keep the electronics card as a spare.


Like mentioned earlier? The temperature sensor of the brew tube screwed up?

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


----------



## zellleonhart

CoffeeTim said:


> Like mentioned earlier? The temperature sensor of the brew tube screwed up?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


 Actually not the HX temperature sensor but the Steam temperature sensor. Not sure what exactly happened but after replacing that, the issue went away totally. Even though the digital readout showed that the steam temperature was indeed exceeding the target temp, the boiler would continue to heat up. I would think it's the controller/Gicar box's fault but surprisingly it's the probe.


----------



## Glen

zellleonhart said:


> The top and bottom probes are both 9600092, they use the exact same component but one each on the top and bottom of the boiler. It looks identical as well from what I see in the video and compared to the bottom temp probe.


 Ok, I thought I was going crazy but here's the evidence I'm not.

The diagram of the PL62X doesn't show the same temp probe on the bottom and top.

Dave C's video here shows that there is no probe on top, as you can see there is a circular spot for it but no probe there on top of the boiler, closest toward the hot water tap corner of the machine.

Lelit Insider's video here shows that exact same location where he is replacing the 9600092 probe in question.

So what's going on guys? Has Lelit made a change to the design which isn't even showing up on the diagram and Dave C didn't have that update on his machine either? And when there is two identical part number probes, how do I know which one is faulty?


----------



## zellleonhart

Glen said:


> Ok, I thought I was going crazy but here's the evidence I'm not.
> 
> The diagram of the PL62X doesn't show the same temp probe on the bottom and top.
> 
> Dave C's video here shows that there is no probe on top, as you can see there is a circular spot for it but no probe there on top of the boiler, closest toward the hot water tap corner of the machine.
> 
> Lelit Insider's video here shows that exact same location where he is replacing the 9600092 probe in question.
> 
> So what's going on guys? Has Lelit made a change to the design which isn't even showing up on the diagram and Dave C didn't have that update on his machine either? And when there is two identical part number probes, how do I know which one is faulty?


 If you see Jim's video here (0:40 onwards) 




You can see that the temp probe (*with red wire*) is there, but in a different location which is combined with the white plastic clip, which I assume is the level probe. I read somewhere before that the Mara X has a "combined" temp probe and level probe, but I didn't think too much about it.

If I am right, I think the later production of Mara X has a separate level probe and temp probe, in which the circular spot is occupied by the temp probe.

Both Jim and DaveC's videos are earlier production (before March 2020?).

*EDIT: Wow, I have found the newer version of the Technical Documentation (REV04)*. I made a comparison of the boiler components in the image below. I have also attached both documents for reference. There are indeed two different versions!










View attachment 5400000-REV01.pdf
View attachment 5400000-REV04.pdf


----------



## Glen

zellleonhart said:


> If you see Jim's video here (0:40 onwards)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see that the temp probe (*with red wire*) is there, but in a different location which is combined with the white plastic clip, which I assume is the level probe. I read somewhere before that the Mara X has a "combined" temp probe and level probe, but I didn't think too much about it.
> 
> If I am right, I think the later production of Mara X has a separate level probe and temp probe, in which the circular spot is occupied by the temp probe.
> 
> Both Jim and DaveC's videos are earlier production (before March 2020?).
> 
> *EDIT: Wow, I have found the newer version of the Technical Documentation (REV04)*. I made a comparison of the boiler components in the image below. I have also attached both documents for reference. There are indeed two different versions!
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 53427
> View attachment 53428


 That's awesome. Thanks mate.


----------



## KyNg

zellleonhart said:


> @itguy How's your testing of the combination of IMS shower screen and VST baskets? I have been using IMS IM200 + VST 18g and channeling is almost always constant, regardless how I puck prep (WDT, level tamping etc).
> 
> I start to think it's my grinder instead of puck prep.


 Zelleon, i've tried using stock and vst 18.. i get no channeling from there as well but it's dirtier than using IMS.. maybe you can try..


----------



## tmort

Hi folks, I've had my Mara X for about two weeks now and I definitely love the machine, and the results. I do however have some questions about the water coming out of the valve at the back of the drip tray. I sent a query to where I purchased it from, and they indicated that a valve may need adjusting or replacing and to send it back. This is definitely a big hassle so I started looking around and found this thread. I reviewed a lot of this thread and it looks like some of the water output is normal, but maybe not all. I'm wondering if I could get some feedback based on your knowledge/experience.

The symptoms are as follows:

1. When warming up water will drain from the valve right at the back of the tray, is that normal?

2. When it's warming up it will release steam a couple times. I'm not sure if this is from the group head or the valve at the back of the tray, is that normal?

3. When pouring a shot water will almost constantly be released from the valve at the back of the tray, is that normal?

4. A few minutes after operation the pump will run and more water will come out of the valve at the back of the tray while this is happening, is that normal?

5. After the machine came up to temp and the lights went solid, while I was grinding etc, the pump kicked in twice, each time expelling a bit of water through that spout at the back of the tray.

In my initial email to the store I had not included #5 yet, as I hadn't noticed that. They indicated 1 + 2 were normal, and asked for a video of 3 + 4. I shared this video: 



. At the start of the video while pulling the shot I get constant flow, then at about 2:30 the pump runs and the valve expels some water. Based on the video they said send it back for some lovin'.

Before going to the trouble of boxing it up and shipping it back I figured I would check in and see if anyone here felt this was all normal/abnormal?

Thanks,

-Tom


----------



## tmort

I'll add that the pressure sits at about 9.5 with the backflushing basket in, although water looks like it starts coming out at about 8. It's a little hard to tell for sure as the gauge is swinging by pretty fast once it gets to that part of the process.


----------



## Ilias

Everything you said sounds normal to me.

When you are *not* pouring a shot the water should not be much (a few ml).

During the shot the OPV is redirected to the drip tray.. so it is normal to see water dripping there. There is a mod on this forum to avoid this. You can find instructions here:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55806-mara-x-redirect-opv-discharge-water-from-drip-tray-to-re-use-%E2%80%93-easy-mod-instructions-with-pics/?do=embed


----------



## tmort

Ilias said:


> During the shot the OPV is redirected to the drip tray.. so it is normal to see water dripping there. There is a mod on this forum to avoid this.


 While pulling the shot do you expect this OPV outlet do be "dripping" or "flowing"? It's a pretty constant stream.


----------



## Ilias

I don't remember because i did the mod but it was something like 50ml of water wasted for every 36ml of coffee...


----------



## Doram

tmort said:


> 1. When warming up water will drain from the valve right at the back of the tray, is that normal?
> 
> 2. When it's warming up it will release steam a couple times. I'm not sure if this is from the group head or the valve at the back of the tray, is that normal?
> 
> 3. When pouring a shot water will almost constantly be released from the valve at the back of the tray, is that normal?
> 
> 4. A few minutes after operation the pump will run and more water will come out of the valve at the back of the tray while this is happening, is that normal?
> 
> 5. After the machine came up to temp and the lights went solid, while I was grinding etc, the pump kicked in twice, each time expelling a bit of water through that spout at the back of the tray.


 Everything you describe and is seen in your video is completely normal and by design, and there is absolutely no need to send your machine back for these reasons - you will be wasting your time. Which retailer saw this and told you to send the machine back?

The water you see coming into the drip tray originates from different places in the machine. You can learn more about what and why (and many other useful features of the machine) if you go over the excellent review by @DavecUK here: https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/lelit-marax-review-in-progress/

The one source that vents a significant amount of water to the drip tray is the Over Pressure Valve (OPV) discharge tube (this is the water you see coming into the tray while you pull a shot). The reason for this is that the pump pushes water at a higher pressure than is needed to make coffee (~15 bar maybe). You only need ~9 bar (or ~10.5 bar as it usually comes set from Lelit) of this pressure to the group, so the OPV is set to discharge anything over that, and this excess water ends up in the drip tray on the Mara X.

As pointed above, there is an easy mod you can do to redirect the OPV discharge tube either to the pump inlet internally, or back to the water tank. This will save a significant amount of water, and also significantly slow down filling the drip tray with water. You can see the options here:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/58312-mara-x-opv-re-route-mod-3-alternatives-with-illustrations/?tab=comments&do=embed


----------



## Badgerman

Any issues with putting a MildredM towel on top of the MaraX? I didn't want it to over heat or anything.


----------



## Badgerman

Yes I've taken off the hot water pipe. It was just in the way and have no need with an Osmio.


----------



## tmort

@Doram the retailer is idrinkcoffee.com here in Canada.


----------



## fitzgerald91

Hey everybody ????
I've been wanting to do this for weeks and now it is happening! I am about to clean a not so yummy looking part in/under my water tank and the connecting part in the machine itself. (see pictures)
So apparently there is some lubricant around that part and in my case also in the actual part where the water flows.
My question now is: after cleaning, should I relube the whole thing as it is now and just clean it regularly to not get this unpleasant brown-ish stuff?
Sunny wishes from Copenhagen????‍♂

Water tank connection in the machine:










Water tank bottom


----------



## Glen

UPDATE on my replacement of the 9600092 probe.

The replacement arrived yesterday and today I set about the job at lunch time.

I had to go hunting high temperature teflon tape because there was nothing supplied with the probe to seal it. But all good, so I got that done, and plugged it in for a heat up to see what would happen.

It heated up to 3.0 bar and then hovered around there, bouncing between 2.9 and 3.1 I would say.

After a minute there it's heat up process was done.

This is disappointing because I had documented it doing this exactly the same before I changed the probe. Meaning that the probe wasn't faulty.

I then let it cool down for a couple hours and then replaced the bottom probe with the one I removed from the top of the boiler.

Re-heat - same results again.

So here's a question: why do I get the pressure building up to well over 4 bar in the mornings, but during the day time it will only go up to around 3 bar usually? (there was that one time I caught it on video doing the full over-pressure blow off during the day) Our overnight minimum temps here are around 22 Celsius, and it's ambient temp during mid day times would be in the low 30s.

Shouldn't it consistently be doing the one or the other? Why should it's pre heat-up temperature make a difference to how it behaves at it's maximum heat-up setting?

I will now wait until tomorrow morning and see how it behaves while heating up at 6:00 AM.


----------



## zellleonhart

@Glen heated up to around 3.0 bar for a short period seems normal to me, though mine maxed out at around 2.7 - 2.8 bar. If it stays at 3.0 bar too long or exceeds to around 4 bar, then the problem still persists. Does it still build up to over 4 bar of pressure with the new probes?

I suggest you to test a full warm up with the following settings:



Brew Priority Mode of course


Temperature Setting 1 (93-94C)


If it is performing normally, the max pressure should reach no more than 3 bar, and it should show around 0.5 bar pressure at 30-35mins since the machine is turned on. If the pressure ever built up to above 3.2 bar and after 35 minutes the pressure is still above 0.7 bar (or way higher like 1.x bar) then the issue is still there, you might need to change the Gicar box (electronics card).


----------



## Glen

zellleonhart said:


> @Glen heated up to around 3.0 bar for a short period seems normal to me, though mine maxed out at around 2.7 - 2.8 bar. If it stays at 3.0 bar too long or exceeds to around 4 bar, then the problem still persists. Does it still build up to over 4 bar of pressure with the new probes?
> 
> I suggest you to test a full warm up with the following settings:
> 
> 
> 
> Brew Priority Mode of course
> 
> 
> Temperature Setting 1 (93-94C)
> 
> 
> If it is performing normally, the max pressure should reach no more than 3 bar, and it should show around 0.5 bar pressure at 30-35mins since the machine is turned on. If the pressure ever built up to above 3.2 bar and after 35 minutes the pressure is still above 0.7 bar (or way higher like 1.x bar) then the issue is still there, you might need to change the Gicar box (electronics card).


 Thanks Zellon, I will time-lapse record how it behaves tomorrow morning, that's when it would usually go to the full 4+ bar. I will leave it on and time-lapse recording for about 40 mins after we have our first coffees to see how it behaves.

Perhaps it will be fine and the 3 bar heat up is just normal for my machine now, fingers crossed. I wish I had taken note of how high it's pressure was getting before this fault arose.


----------



## Glen

OK, 2 mornings in a row no over-pressure problems. I watched it's heat up hit 3 bar and hover around there until heat up was finished.

Then after 20-30 mins it dropped down below 1 bar. Looks like it's all good.

One more thing I will add, After my first time removing the cover to inspect the plumbing inside, the next day she had a bad rattle noise develop whenever the pump ran. Like there was a copper pipe rubbing on a side wall or another pipe, or a loose screw. But when taking it apart again for the probe replacement, I checked all screws had been tight and then inspected all internals to try find the source of the rattle. The only possible place I found, where metal was on metal, is the bracket which comes off the water tank wall and is attached to the top of the boiler. There is no rubber or anything around it.

When giving that back wall a bit of a push the metal on metal did make a noise. So I'm guessing that's where the problem is. I folded a few pieces of the thick high-temp teflon tape into squares and shoved them in-between the gaps where there should be some rubber.

I can't be truly 100% sure that's where the rattle/buzz was coming from, but I have not had any more rattle sounds from the machine since.


----------



## iamdean

Hi everyone,

Thanks for everyone who's been putting info in this thread! I'm glad to know I'm not the only person in the over-pressure problem. I can't say I've read everything in the thread (It's quite long), but I think I may be in a different boat than most of you. Brand new machine, received end of February.

Almost every time I turn on my machine, at a certain point before it's completely hot, the pump will turn on and fill the boiler until it's >3 bar even when it's not totally hot. The light will eventually go steady saying it's at the correct temperature, but the boiler pressure will remain 2-3 bar. If I let pressure out by opening the steam wand, it will instantly drop, then refill the boiler >3 bar again. I've also had it several times now have the pump turn on to fill the boiler, and all the water just shoots out the OPV (or steam if its hot), and will continue unless I turn the machine off. Also a lot of the water splashes out of the drip tray and all over my counter. My dealer (I'm US), suggested it was my water, but I'm just using regular filtered water. I even tried adding salt as they suggested, but still same issues.

Is there just something wrong with a lot of these new machines? I'm pretty frustrated, it's my first machine ever. Reading this thread kind of scares me with this machine, should I just return it and buy something else?


----------



## iamdean

Sorry it won't let me edit my post, just wanted to add a quick youtube video. This happens almost every time during the warm up phase. Don't think I've seen anyone talking about something like this before:


----------



## Andrewczy

So I usually have my Mara X on a smart plug but I'm pretty sure this isn't normal? Noticed this in the first few mins of turning on, but only less than 20 secs. It's back to working as usual now.


----------



## Glen

> 4 hours ago, iamdean said:
> 
> Sorry it won't let me edit my post, just wanted to add a quick youtube video. This happens almost every time during the warm up phase. Don't think I've seen anyone talking about something like this before:


 I'm guessing that's just the normal little bit of steam that blows off as the boiler heats up and the vacuum release valve closes. Normal on all HX machines.


----------



## Dallah

My MaraX is on a smart plug and is turned on and warmed up long before I am awake. I hope my machine isn't behaving like that, especially that wild swing on the steam pressure.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

> 7 hours ago, iamdean said:
> 
> Sorry it won't let me edit my post, just wanted to add a quick youtube video. This happens almost every time during the warm up phase. Don't think I've seen anyone talking about something like this before:


 When the pump keeps pumping, the water needs to go somewhere. I can see from your video some water going into the drip tray.

when the pressure shows 3 bar like that right at the start, open the steam wand. What happens? Do you get steam or just water? Next time it happens, then do it with the hot water tap. Is the water actually hot? Does the pressure immediately go down pretty much back to zero?

my gut feel is that the boiler is overfilling and the water inside that boiler is not hot. The pressure reading might not be actual from "steam" inside the boiler, but maybe due to the boiler being too full.

Doesn't look right to me that's for sure.


----------



## Glen

Glen said:


> WOW! Never seen anything like that before, but wait for some more knowledgable members to reply...
> 
> I would be very surprised and disappointed in the professionalism of your dealer if they suggest that it's just your water! lol.


 I would also add, I also use a wifi smart plug for my MaraX and it has no effect on the way she acts, I love being able to set on/off times and even be able to turn it on when I'm out on the road thinking ahead for my return-home coffee.

I would bet it's a faulty water level probe on the top of your boiler. part # 9600105


----------



## zellleonhart

Not sure if anyone asked before: since I don't use the Lelit water filter, can I remove the black plastic piece and the tube inside the water tank? The tube and black plastic becomes sticky over time and it's difficult to clean with my huge hand.

I suppose most people just leave it in, but can water be drawn without the plastic and tube?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

zellleonhart said:


> can water be drawn without the plastic and tube?


 You should be fine. Worse case scenario, it's a very simple test to carry out 🙂


----------



## PD2020

zellleonhart said:


> Not sure if anyone asked before: since I don't use the Lelit water filter, can I remove the black plastic piece and the tube inside the water tank? The tube and black plastic becomes sticky over time and it's difficult to clean with my huge hand.
> 
> I suppose most people just leave it in, but can water be drawn without the plastic and tube?


 Hi. Yup, we did ask in here 😉

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48398-mara-x/page/76/?tab=comments#comment-788833


----------



## zellleonhart

PD2020 said:


> Hi. Yup, we did ask in here 😉
> 
> https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48398-mara-x/page/76/?tab=comments#comment-788833


 Thank you! Now I will remove them


----------



## DavecUK

> On 07/03/2021 at 02:03, iamdean said:
> 
> Sorry it won't let me edit my post, just wanted to add a quick youtube video. This happens almost every time during the warm up phase. Don't think I've seen anyone talking about something like this before:


 Huge clue that it's likely to be the Gicar box...rather than the probe


----------



## Doram

zellleonhart said:


> The tube and black plastic becomes sticky over time and it's difficult to clean with my huge hand.


 If you mean slimy residue on the black plastic parts, take that as indication that you need to clean your water tank more often to stop 'things' growing in it. You can also use some sort of sanitiser (like Milton) every now and then.

And as others have said, you can remove the tube loop from the tank with confidence, it's only there for the in-tank filter.


----------



## Glen

Doram said:


> If you mean slimy residue on the black plastic parts, take that as indication that you need to clean your water tank more often to stop 'things' growing in it. You can also use some sort of sanitiser (like Milton) every now and then.
> 
> And as others have said, you can remove the tube loop from the tank with confidence, it's only there for the in-tank filter.


 I've noticed that the white/semi translucent tubes in coffee machines often become sticky and even leave a residue on hands if you touch them. What's that about? I'm talking about tubes that are not submerged in water but run inside the machine to carry water to the driptray and such. Thanks.



DavecUK said:


> Any of my reviews on machines clearly indicate what autofill probes look like (they are either single piece, or combined with a temp sensor)..


 This one yeah?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Glen said:


> I've noticed that the white/semi translucent tubes in coffee machines often become sticky and even leave a residue on hands if you touch them


 I have a few silicone hoses, not even inside machines. I think what you describe is gathering of moisture combined with dust. You'll notice that, once you wash it of, with water, it is no longer as such.


----------



## iamdean

Thanks for the replies everyone, really appreciate the help. To answer your questions from above:



MediumRoastSteam said:


> When the pump keeps pumping, the water needs to go somewhere. I can see from your video some water going into the drip tray.
> 
> when the pressure shows 3 bar like that right at the start, open the steam wand. What happens? Do you get steam or just water? Next time it happens, then do it with the hot water tap. Is the water actually hot? Does the pressure immediately go down pretty much back to zero?
> 
> my gut feel is that the boiler is overfilling and the water inside that boiler is not hot. The pressure reading might not be actual from "steam" inside the boiler, but maybe due to the boiler being too full.
> 
> Doesn't look right to me that's for sure.


 This sounds like exactly what is happening. I have other videos showing that if I open the steam valve the pressure will drop immediately to nothing, and then the process can repeat itself where it pumps itself back up to 3.5 bar.



DavecUK said:


> I suspect what is happening is:
> 
> 
> 
> machine is on, and warming up
> 
> 
> Gicar box incorrectly senses low water, solenoid valve toggled to boiler (clearly the boiler was over full to start with)
> 
> 
> Boiler fills and the vacuum breaker closes due to pressure
> 
> 
> The boiler pressure rises to 3.5+
> 
> 
> Water pisses out of the safetey valve which is set to 3.5 bar
> 
> 
> Solenoid is toggled to brew circuit by Gicar box (hence brew pressure rises)
> 
> 
> All roads lead to Rome...e.g. the drip tray, water from safety valve enters drip tray with force
> 
> 
> Boiler is generally over filled (as the fill happened quite fast)
> 
> 
> Steam is very wet
> 
> 
> Gicar box eventually stops fill
> 
> 
> Well I'm not guessing really...
> 
> *USA often has huge shipping distances...so*
> 
> I "suspect" your Gicar box is faulty, or there is an intermittent bad connection from your autofill probe to the Gicar box. If you can (unplug machine) remove the top and have a quick scan inside..look to see if the autofill probe connection is obviously loose, or has some problem...If it has, it could be the cause of your issues. Any of my reviews on machines clearly indicate what autofill probes look like (they are either single piece, or combined with a temp sensor).. If you don't see an obvious problem...you can optionally remove the case and check it's connection to the gicar box.
> 
> *After this (and only do the above if you're confident to do it and it won't invalidate your warranty (check with your dealer)*
> 
> Go back to your retailer, explain it's not your water. If they are a long way away ask them to send you *a new probe and Gicar box. *It's easy to fit. Fit the Gicar box first and see if that solves the problems...I suspect it will.
> 
> Huge clue that it's likely to be the Gicar box...rather than the probe


 Thank you for the incredibly detailed response, you've completely detailed the problem. Unfortunately I already checked the probe connection and it is good. I just checked the Gicar box and those connections also seems fine. Aside from the problem I show in this video, I've also had a similar case except the "gicar box eventually stops fill" never happens, and the machine will just dump water or steam out the OPV until I eventually turn it off.

I sent a reply to my dealer suggesting the problem with the probe / Gicar box as you've outlined it. It seems like the US dealer is on a very public tirade against non-conductive water causing espresso machine faults, and I'm just caught in the crossfire with my very problematic machine.


----------



## jonasy

Hi, I opened up my Mara to do the opv mod. I noticed some yellow residual at the bottom of the tank where the water inlet is. Any ideas what this is and how to avoid? I've been exclusively using lock hill water.

Also any tips how to best clean the water filter?


----------



## DavecUK

jonasy said:


> Hi, I opened up my Mara to do the opv mod. I noticed some yellow residual at the bottom of the tank where the water inlet is. Any ideas what this is and how to avoid? I've been exclusively using lock hill water.
> 
> Also any tips how to best clean the water filter?
> 
> View attachment 54900


 Have you been using mustard for extra flavour perchance...seriously I've never seen anything like it. Is it a lubricant of some kind...overenthusiastically applied? Some sort of emulsified food grade oil??

I would get a paper towel and remove as much as you can....because, I just would.

P.S. What does it feel like, smell of etc..


----------



## jonasy

😬 it's quite sticky, near odourless.. very slight hint of mineral / oil smell. Colour is indeed very much like Dijon mustard.

Doesn't feel great if this has been fed into the boiler etc. Worth contacting Lelit/Bella barista?

Also noticed quite a bit of air in the tube from the opv and solenoid, is this normal?


----------



## DavecUK

Yes air in the expansion valve tube is normal. It is open at one end.

I don't know what the yellow stuff is, so if you want to find out, there's only one way...ask.


----------



## fitzgerald91

DavecUK said:


> Have you been using mustard for extra flavour perchance...seriously I've never seen anything like it. Is it a lubricant of some kind...overenthusiastically applied? Some sort of emulsified food grade oil??
> 
> I would get a paper towel and remove as much as you can....because, I just would.
> 
> P.S. What does it feel like, smell of etc..


 I'm 99% sure it is lubricant which over the time turned to a weird brown/red/yellow-ish color. Had the same with my machine, too. (Posted some pictures here a while a go) When the machine was brand new it was nice and white...


----------



## Scottland

Just had an email from BB, my MaraX has shipped from them today!


----------



## Dallah

Happy days. New kit day is always the best.


----------



## DavecUK

@Scottland I few weeks of fun awaits you as you get to know each other... What grinder did you go for?


----------



## Scottland

DavecUK said:


> @Scottland I few weeks of fun awaits you as you get to know each other... What grinder did you go for?


 Still going to use my Sette 270Wi. I may upgrade in the future but I'm not sure.


----------



## Doram

jonasy said:


> Hi, I opened up my Mara to do the opv mod. I noticed some yellow residual at the bottom of the tank where the water inlet is. Any ideas what this is and how to avoid? I've been exclusively using lock hill water.


 Went over to the machine with the intention to take a photo to show that mine doesn't have this (because I looked before, when @fitzgerald91 posted the same, and thought mine was clean).

Zoomed in and was horrified to see that actually I do have it, though in a smaller quantity (top photo, bellow). Picked up a bit of the stuff on a toothpick and it definitely looks and feels like an odourless (hopefully food-safe) lubricant, so maybe used to fit the part? Did my best to clean it with some kitchen paper wrapped around a toothpick (bottom photo).


----------



## iamdean

To close the loop on my boiler overfilling problem a few posts back -- problem solved. Lelit Italy figured out the problem, apparently only one other machine (a Bianca no less) in the EU has had this issue, first one in America so the distributor wasn't aware. The plastic casing on my water level probe was not properly cut back at the factory. After giving the probe a little 'circumcision' everything seems to be working normally now. Just wanted to write this up in case someone else wins Lelit lottery and has the same issue on this batch of shipments.

Thanks to everyone who chimed in on my previous post, much appreciated. I can take the machine apart pretty well now, but I still have to figure out how to make delicious espresso....


----------



## Glen

iamdean said:


> but I still have to figure out how to make delicious espresso....


 Life changing tip: roast your own beans. I discovered it 13 yrs ago and haven't looked back.

(bread maker + heat gun method)


----------



## KyNg

Ya that's right nowdays i'm starting to roast myself using hot air roaster thing which can cool down the bean all automatic cheap barwell good for beginner like me who dont know anything about roast profiles thing.. hopefully it can work well for a long time..

Guys since my workflow and espresso is lot better nowdays love my mara x.. btw i've been thinking to get profitec flow profile things like stanic is it necessary upgrade? It's quite pricey here 300usd.. some said it's better on double boiler than on hx?


----------



## Marco Civran

iamdean said:


> To close the loop on my boiler overfilling problem a few posts back -- problem solved. Lelit Italy figured out the problem, apparently only one other machine (a Bianca no less) in the EU has had this issue, first one in America so the distributor wasn't aware. The plastic casing on my water level probe was not properly cut back at the factory. After giving the probe a little 'circumcision' everything seems to be working normally now. Just wanted to write this up in case someone else wins Lelit lottery and has the same issue on this batch of shipments.
> 
> Thanks to everyone who chimed in on my previous post, much appreciated. I can take the machine apart pretty well now, but I still have to figure out how to make delicious espresso....


 I had the same problem on my mara X of just one week (I'm in Italy). Very promptly I was contacted by Lelit through a dealer, who invited me to send it back to the company ... in the meantime I dusted off the indestructible mocha machine ... I must admit that both the seller and the company have been very thoughtful ...


----------



## Andrewczy

Andrewczy said:


> So I usually have my Mara X on a smart plug but I'm pretty sure this isn't normal? Noticed this in the first few mins of turning on, but only less than 20 secs. It's back to working as usual now.


 So following up on my previous post.

Been working pretty well uptil today when I noticed something similar happen.

Switched the Mara X on for the first time today, And excess steam seemed to Be releasing from the anti vac valve (very similar to the above link but not as intense) for close to 5 minutes. Steam pressure was still 0 as this was early on during heating up phase.

Switched the Mara X off and on, and it seemed to have fixed the issue.

Wondering if anyone else has experienced this?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Andrewczy said:


> anti vac valve (very similar to the above link but not as intense) for close to 5 minutes. Steam pressure was still 0 as this was early on during heating up phase.


 Classic symptom of stuck anti-vac valve. I used to get that with my Pavoni. A good hit with a wooden spoon and problem solved for months and months to come. Until it decided to do it again.

Have you:

- recently descaled;
- tipped machine upside down, or sideways;
- what's your water like?

the anti-vac valve should shut as pressure starts to build. In your case, pressure won't build because the valve is not shutting, as it's escaping instead.

maybe consider replacing the anti-vac valve or at least clean it, if it keeps happening.


----------



## Andrewczy

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Classic symptom of stuck anti-vac valve. I used to get that with my Pavoni. A good hit with a wooden spoon and problem solved for months and months to come. Until it decided to do it again.
> 
> Have you:
> 
> - recently descaled;
> - tipped machine upside down, or sideways;
> - what's your water like?
> 
> the anti-vac valve should shut as pressure starts to build. In your case, pressure won't build because the valve is not shutting, as it's escaping instead.
> 
> maybe consider replacing the anti-vac valve or at least clean it, if it keeps happening.


 Thanks for the reply. Will keep an eye on this and see how often it happens.

Have not done any descaling or tipping the machine over.

In terms of water, I had been using moderately hardened water thorough the lelit softeners for rhe first 5months before changing it over to distilled water + TWW.

Now time to have a look at some videos on the Mara X and locate where the anti vac valve is lol


----------



## zellleonhart

Andrewczy said:


> Thanks for the reply. Will keep an eye on this and see how often it happens.
> 
> Have not done any descaling or tipping the machine over.
> 
> In terms of water, I had been using moderately hardened water thorough the lelit softeners for rhe first 5months before changing it over to distilled water + TWW.
> 
> Now time to have a look at some videos on the Mara X and locate where the anti vac valve is lol


 I think this is the correct video that shows the problem and how to replace the anti vac valve:


----------



## Scottland

Hi,

I got my machine last week from BB, so obviously still learning it. I've had a few oddities and just wanted to confirm my understanding is correct.

First, I took out a bit of hot water from the hot water tap to warm a cup before pulling a shot. I must have taken too much as it kicked in the autofill for quite a few seconds. The pilot light flashed for a few minutes afterwards then stayed lit as it it was ready, but steam pressure went up to 1.5 bar and held here for 5-10 minutes. If I recall this is how the warm up cycle works? When I pulled a shot it seemed like the water was too hot as it was a pretty horrible shot to look at. I would have thought the pilot light would continue to flash though if the machine was warming up though?

Secondly, once or twice I've pulled a shot or 2 and the steam hasn't boosted and has stayed around 0.5-1 bar. I can't remember the sequence that led to this (i.e. what did I do exactly), but just trying to understand what is happening so I can avoid it.

Thanks


----------



## Doram

Andrewczy said:


> Now time to have a look at some videos on the Mara X and locate where the anti vac valve is lol


 This is the vacuum breaker (curtesy of @DavecUK video, @~7 mins and 23 seconds 



😞









@zellleonhart - the video you posted shows a different component - the solenoid valve.


----------



## Doram

Scottland said:


> First, I took out a bit of hot water from the hot water tap to warm a cup before pulling a shot. I must have taken too much as it kicked in the autofill for quite a few seconds. The pilot light flashed for a few minutes afterwards then stayed lit as it it was ready, but steam pressure went up to 1.5 bar and held here for 5-10 minutes. If I recall this is how the warm up cycle works? When I pulled a shot it seemed like the water was too hot as it was a pretty horrible shot to look at. I would have thought the pilot light would continue to flash though if the machine was warming up though?
> 
> Secondly, once or twice I've pulled a shot or 2 and the steam hasn't boosted and has stayed around 0.5-1 bar. I can't remember the sequence that led to this (i.e. what did I do exactly), but just trying to understand what is happening so I can avoid it.


 You may be confusing the warm up cycle with the steam boost cycle. The warm up cycle is when you turn on the machine from cold. It will then go to ~2.75 bar and be allowed to settle down to ~0.5 bar. This is when the machine is ready to brew coffee (it takes about 24 minutes to get there from a cold start).

The steam boost will kick in when you use the machine (lift the lever to brew coffee or draw steam from the steam wand or water from the water wand). Once you do any of those, the heater will turn on to bring the machine from brew temp to steam temp (pressure will go up to ~1.5 bar for steaming). You then have a few minutes to brew before the machine gets too hot for coffee and you need to give it time to cool down for your next shots (so back to ~0.5 bar).

In your description, what happened seems to be this: Your machine was ready to brew, but you drew water to heat the cup. This started the steam boost. You took too long to prepare (say more than 5 minutes), so pulled your shot when the machine was at steam temp (so too hot for coffee). To avoid this, you can just keep your cups on top of the machine. Mara X heats the cups nicely, so you can just take a cup from the top of the machine and it will be nice and warm. This will avoid drawing water and starting the steam boost. If you do want to draw water to heat cups, make sure you pull your shot within ~5 minutes from the moment you drew water.


----------



## Scottland

Thanks, I thought the hot water didn't trigger the steam boost so maybe that's why then. I don't usually use the hot water tap at all, but the cups didn't go back on top of the machine so they were cold 😛


----------



## disq

The steam knob developed a major squeak after about 5 months of daily use. Yesterday I finally removed and greased the thread underneath, it's so smooth now. After putting up with that squeak for the last two months, I can say that the experience has changed significantly after the re-lubing. I used Molykote 111, probably unnecessary but we know that it's heat resistant and long lasting.

This video was helpful for disassembly/assembly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj-qH7dzXJ


----------



## Guido

My boiler pressure gets ridiculously high during the warm up fase. Today it nearly got as high as 4,5 bar and the machine started to make a whistling sound. Is this normal behaviour? I read in a review it should max out at 2,75.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

The whistling sound at high pressure, presumably accompanied by steaming being released at the drip tray is the safety valve being triggered. If this is the case, this should NOT happen.


----------



## Guido

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The whistling sound at high pressure, presumably accompanied by steaming being released at the drip tray is the safety valve being triggered. If this is the case, this should NOT happen.


 Thanks for giving me some insight.

I have contacted my reseller and they are going to help me out. It's probably a faulty temperature probe.


----------



## Danm

Quick question please team.... going to be unboxing and setting up this morning - I will be using only bottled water. It is a case of literally just not inserting the filter cartridge or does some other adjustment need to be made?

I'm 275 posts in and not sure I was going to find the answer before I get over excited and rip it open!

Great thread so far btw.


----------



## prezes

Danm said:


> Quick question please team.... going to be unboxing and setting up this morning - I will be using only bottled water. It is a case of literally just not inserting the filter cartridge or does some other adjustment need to be made?
> 
> I'm 275 posts in and not sure I was going to find the answer before I get over excited and rip it open!
> 
> Great thread so far btw.


 Hi

if using only non scaling bottled water there's no point in using the filter. You can also remove the silicone piping with the bottom fitting.


----------



## holybean

Hi all,

I've had my Mara X for about a year now, and in that time it's gotten heavy use with great results.

However, I'm starting to encounter a couple of issues. The first is that I'm finding a small amount of water from time to time under the drip tray. I assume that its somehow sneaking behind the tray when the group discharges, but I'm not sure.

Also, I've notice recently that when I raise the arm to pull a shot there's a slightly longer delay before it kicks on. It's not immediate as it was before. It doesn't do this every time - maybe about 1/3 of time.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

Tim

Lansing, MI, USA


----------



## stickyz

seems like my water level indicator does not work 😕 i am not sure what to search here so i was wondering if anyone had the issue and knows how to enable it (maybe I disabled it somehow by mistake?)


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

stickyz said:


> seems like my water level indicator does not work 😕 i am not sure what to search here so i was wondering if anyone had the issue and knows how to enable it (maybe I disabled it somehow by mistake?)


 Enable what? What do you mean by the water level indicator not working? Are you saying perhaps that the machine runs out of water without stopping the pump?


----------



## stickyz

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Enable what? What do you mean by the water level indicator not working? Are you saying perhaps that the machine runs out of water without stopping the pump?


 Exactly.

At the beginning the light would blink if there was water missing , now it is always on except for whenni take the whole container out.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@stickyz - check the tank. Does it have a float? Is it moving freely?


----------



## PD2020

stickyz said:


> Exactly.
> 
> At the beginning the light would blink if there was water missing , now it is always on except for whenni take the whole container out.


 Check this area in the tank. You need the white part inside, and the black cap on the top.

More on Lelit Insider at 4:07:


----------



## stickyz

> 2 hours ago, PD2020 said:
> 
> Check this area in the tank. You need the white part inside, and the black cap on the top.
> 
> More on Lelit Insider at 4:07:


 Thanks for the video !! It was there but seems like I put it upside down so now the indicator works , on another note , this is how the parts looked like 😬 (covered in yellow/greenish thing )

i live in the edge of my city and get water from the best source in the area (mountains etc..) I wonder if I just need to check and clean it more often or use a filter (is it possible anything "internal" might be damaged from that ? Or big influence on flavor ?)


----------



## PD2020

You're welcome 

Yeah, this part in particular needs frequent and regular cleaning. It gets slimy really fast. I clean my whole tank once a week or more often (when filling it up). Give it a proper soapy brush/clean and perhaps use some Milton tablets afterwards to remove this gunk!


----------



## DavecUK

@PD2020 I have a thing that makes what is effectively Milton from salt. I place the stuff in a spray bottle and I spray coat the inside of tank and tubes, leave for 10m then rinse clean.


----------



## Alpesh

stickyz said:


> Thanks for the video !! It was there but seems like I put it upside down so now the indicator works , on another note , this is how the parts looked like 😬 (covered in yellow/greenish thing )
> 
> i live in the edge of my city and get water from the best source in the area (mountains etc..) I wonder if I just need to check and clean it more often or use a filter (is it possible anything "internal" might be damaged from that ? Or big influence on flavor ?)
> 
> View attachment 56360


 I had similar and thought it was food grade lubricant when I first washed the tank until I saw this post. I've been washing it weekly now with soap and not seen it again but may need to look at using Milton as well.


----------



## dbeckett

stickyz said:


> seems like my water level indicator does not work 😕 i am not sure what to search here so i was wondering if anyone had the issue and knows how to enable it (maybe I disabled it somehow by mistake?)


 I have the opposite issue, my sensor works but my low water led is broken. water sensor detects low level and turns off the boiler, but led never flashes nor does it stay on when there's water. Just hassle trying to send it away to fix something I don't fully need it ☹


----------



## FrancescoM

Hi everybody, just bought a MaraX and i'm making my first shots, i have a question for you....

Even if i use the extra hot mode the coffee flows out too warm, in extra hot mode the machine warms up in about 25 minutes, should i ''disinstall'' the energy saving mode and let it warm up for like an hour?

I used a bbq thermometer to check (hope its ok) the temperatures.....empty cup is almost 40 C, and the head group is at almost 60C just right before making the shot...probably is this the problem? That i'm making shots with the head too warm?

Thanks a lot


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

FrancescoM said:


> Hi everybody, just bought a MaraX and i'm making my first shots, i have a question for you....
> 
> Even if i use the extra hot mode the coffee flows out too warm, in extra hot mode the machine warms up in about 25 minutes, should i ''disinstall'' the energy saving mode and let it warm up for like an hour?
> 
> I used a bbq thermometer to check (hope its ok) the temperatures.....empty cup is almost 40 C, and the head group is at almost 60C just right before making the shot...probably is this the problem? That i'm making shots with the head too warm?
> 
> Thanks a lot


 The machine needs to heat up from approx. 30 mins (or more) from cold, at least. Disabling energy saving mode is a good idea and recommended.

did you read the review here? https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/lelit-marax-review-in-progress/

worth a read (or two). 😉


----------



## Riv1990

Hoping you guys can help me.

Decided to adjust the OPV to bring the pressure down to 9 bar. I removed the pipe from the top of the OPV, turned the adjustment anticlockwise, refitted the pipe and powered up the machine. Tested with a blind basket and the pump pressure maxed out at 9 bar, happys days!

However... my steam pressure now sits at 1.5 bar. Im current on PID position 0 for the lowest brew temp and the steam pressure normally sits at 0.5 bar.

It surfs between 1.4 and 1.6 bar...

Any help would be appreciated.

The only other mod to the machine i made was for redirecting the OPV water from drip tray to the water tank. This has been in place since Jan and works a treat.

Cheers,

Riv


----------



## DavecUK

Nothing you have done should cause that. Unplug wait 10m, then plug in and switch on again.


----------



## Riv1990

DavecUK said:


> Nothing you have done should cause that. Unplug wait 10m, then plug in and switch on again.


 I switched the machine off from the front panel button and went out for several hours today. Came home and nothing had changed. Im confused.

thanks for the reply Dave. Your information on the marax led me to purchase at the beginning of this year. For the money its a great piece of kit. This is first issue i've had.


----------



## DavecUK

Unplug it, on some machines the Gicar can remain powered. I don't know know if this is one of them.


----------



## pandabear

Just double checking that the pump actuating for a couple of seconds up to a few times is normal post-shot? I've had it actuate a couple of times before but this morning it did this routine 5 times, about 1 minute apart from each other, after I pulled my first shot.

Link to video is in my MaraX album here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/DFyKGJy4dddQoZxJA

I understand the routine is to regulate temperature, is this right? Is up to 5 times considered normal?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

pandabear said:


> Just double checking that the pump actuating for a couple of seconds up to a few times is normal post-shot? I've had it actuate a couple of times before but this morning it did this routine 5 times, about 1 minute apart from each other, after I pulled my first shot.
> 
> Link to video is in my MaraX album here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/DFyKGJy4dddQoZxJA
> 
> I understand the routine is to regulate temperature, is this right? Is up to 5 times considered normal?


 As far as I know, it's not normal. And you are right: This is meant to happen to cool down the HX in order to manage temperature. It happens now and again, but as far as I know, it does not happen like that.

For whichever reason your machine thinks it needs to cool down. Try turning the machine off (unplug it) for a few minutes and see it happens again.


----------



## pandabear

MediumRoastSteam said:


> As far as I know, it's not normal. And you are right: This is meant to happen to cool down the HX in order to manage temperature. It happens now and again, but as far as I know, it does not happen like that.
> 
> For whichever reason your machine thinks it needs to cool down. Try turning the machine off (unplug it) for a few minutes and see it happens again.


 Thanks, will give that a go. It has done it ever since I got it, once or twice after shots (as an estimation, can't say it does it repeatedly every single time but most times).


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

pandabear said:


> Thanks, will give that a go. It has done it ever since I got it, once or twice after shots (as an estimation, can't say it does it repeatedly every single time but most times).


 Maybe that's fine if not repeated. As far as I know, that mechanism is there to cool the HX, and it does so when the machine is idling. @Doram might be able to confirm if what you are experiencing is normal or not.


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @Doram might be able to confirm if what you are experiencing is normal or not.


 My machine is priming occasionally, but I just assume it is normal and ignore it (to be honest, I hardly notice it because it is part of what the machine does). I would say unless it is really excessive, if the machine is working as it should (getting to ~2.75 during the rapid heating cycle, then idling at ~0.5 bar for coffee, then boosting to ~1.5 bar for steaming) - I wouldn't worry about the short priming bursts.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@pandabear , see reply from Doram. 👍


----------



## pandabear

Doram said:


> My machine is priming occasionally, but I just assume it is normal and ignore it (to be honest, I hardly notice it because it is part of what the machine does). I would say unless it is really excessive, if the machine is working as it should (getting to ~2.75 during the rapid heating cycle, then idling at ~0.5 bar for coffee, then boosting to ~1.5 bar for steaming) - I wouldn't worry about the short priming bursts.


 Cheers @Doram, I would say my machine is exactly like that apart from idling at around ~0.75 bar for coffee after the rapid heating cycle. Will keep an eye on things and if they change drastically then seek more help!


----------



## Doram

pandabear said:


> Cheers @Doram, I would say my machine is exactly like that apart from idling at around ~0.75 bar for coffee after the rapid heating cycle. Will keep an eye on things and if they change drastically then seek more help!


 Which heat setting are you on (the switch under the drip tray on the left side)? Mine is usually on 0 or 1, so perhaps if you are on 2 then it idles a little hotter? If not, then I have no explanation for this difference.


----------



## pandabear

Doram said:


> Which heat setting are you on (the switch under the drip tray on the left side)? Mine is usually on 0 or 1, so perhaps if you are on 2 then it idles a little hotter? If not, then I have no explanation for this difference.


 I'm on the lowest one, 0. Just checked this morning with machine idling for the past couple of hours and it fluctuates between 0.5 - 0.75 so assume it's just keeping temp. I must have always caught it at the higher end when actively looking.


----------



## Riv1990

DavecUK said:


> Unplug it, on some machines the Gicar can remain powered. I don't know know if this is one of them.


 Still no good. I contacted Bella Barista and they said its normal. The guy said the gicar works with an algorithm that constantly changes how it reacts.

I just know that in the 6months ive had the machine, set to brew priority mode and using PID setting 1, when not in use it idles at 0.5/0.6 bar. If I lift the lever for a second it boosts pressure for steaming and raises to 1.5 bar but then depressurizes after a time back to 0.5. It no longer does this and just sits at 1.5 bar all the time.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Riv1990 said:


> It no longer does this and just sits at 1.5 bar all the time.


 Is the switch on the right hand side of the machine covered by the machine in Brew or Steam priority mode? My understanding is that, if the top half of the switch is depressed, then the machine is in Brew mode - and that's how it should be.


----------



## Riv1990

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Is the switch on the right hand side of the machine covered by the machine in Brew or Steam priority mode? My understanding is that, if the top half of the switch is depressed, then the machine is in Brew mode - and that's how it should be.


 Thanks for the reply.

The top half (marked 1) is depressed which is brew priority mode and has been this way since first setup. Nothing has changed other than adjusting the OPV to max out at 9 bar instead of 10.

Is the gicar at fault?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Riv1990 said:


> Is the gicar at fault?


 I have no idea... It's annoying BB doesn't want to know 😞

But take a look at this video: You should be able to diagnose it.






Good luck.


----------



## PD2020

Hi @Riv1990. It sounds like you're saying the machine is "stuck" at 1.5 bar. Have you tried flushing some water through the grouphead (say 200ml) and watching the steam gauge behaviour afterwards?

I think @mexes reported something similar nearly a year ago and the solution was:

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48398-mara-x/?do=findComment&comment=763604



> Thank you for your reply. I just tested if the boiler pressure would eventually decrease again after letting water out of the grouphead, but it appears that my machine has some kind of problem with the temperature sensor. Even on PID Setting 0, the boiler pressure stays at 1 bar! With PID Setting 1 it stays at 1.5 bar, even after letting it sit for about 15-20 minutes.





> So I wrote with Lelit and they told me to flush the grouphead with half a liter of water, when the machine is as cold as possible (i.e. when you switch it on for the first time of the day), to get any air out of the HX (otherwise it wouldn't work, like in my case, when it was boiling hot and only bubbling water was coming out of the GH which would again allow air to come inside the HX). And that indeed was the problem! It now works again as expected,


----------



## Riv1990

PD2020 said:


> Hi @Riv1990. It sounds like you're saying the machine is "stuck" at 1.5 bar. Have you tried flushing some water through the grouphead (say 200ml) and watching the steam gauge behaviour afterwards?
> 
> I think @mexes reported something similar nearly a year ago and the solution was:
> 
> https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48398-mara-x/?do=findComment&comment=763604


 Thanks for the link. Ill give this a shot and see if anything changes. It could be that when I adjusted the OPV valve, air was introduced after I removed and replaced the pipe.

Ill report back.


----------



## Sbug

What's everyone's general opinions on this machine?

I'm looking to upgrade from my Gaggia Classic Pro and for my budget this looks the best bet.

Be good to hear people's experience and views on it!

Thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Sbug said:


> What's everyone's general opinions on this machine?
> 
> I'm looking to upgrade from my Gaggia Classic Pro and for my budget this looks the best bet.
> 
> Be good to hear people's experience and views on it!
> 
> Thanks


 I think it's a good machine, but as you can see, some owners are having problems with the software not behaving as expected - which is a real shame.

Have you considered the Elizabeth or the Minima?


----------



## Sbug

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I think it's a good machine, but as you can see, some owners are having problems with the software not behaving as expected - which is a real shame.
> 
> Have you considered the Elizabeth or the Minima?


 Don't like the style of the Elizabeth at all tbh, plus I'm limited for space so the compact nature of the mara x appeals. The minima is more expensive but most of the reviews I've read seem to suggest the build quality isn't great and again I'm not sure about the design with the odd side angle of some elements


----------



## DavecUK

Riv1990 said:


> Is the gicar at fault?


 Possibly, certainly that should be investigated...preferably by sending you a replacement to install (easy enough job) and see if it immediately fixes the problem.

@SbugBuild quality of Minima is good, but the manufacturing means they can't do all those soft edges...nice thick stainless though, huge boilers and performance....low maintenance.


----------



## pandabear

pandabear said:


> I'm on the lowest one, 0. Just checked this morning with machine idling for the past couple of hours and it fluctuates between 0.5 - 0.75 so assume it's just keeping temp. I must have always caught it at the higher end when actively looking.


 Just coming back to this, having watching the machine more closely it doesn't appear to idle and stay static. When resting in coffee priority mode on the lowest temp (0), the machine will idle down to 0.5 and stay there for a few minutes, then it slowly climbs back to 1.5 and stays there for a few minutes before then activating the pump for a couple of seconds and then dropping again, before the cycle restarts.

Is this normal behaviour? I can imagine that the temperature in the boiler fluctuates and it cannot idle forever at ~0.5 bar as it would lose heat, does I assume it does need to increase the pressure to maintain target temp at the group but is this cycle correct?

FWIW when I have tested this at the middle temp (I) it does this same cycle but increases the "baseline" idle temp up to circa ~1 bar. Haven't tested at highest temp (II) yet.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

pandabear said:


> Is this normal behaviour? I can imagine that the temperature in the boiler fluctuates and it cannot idle forever at ~0.5 bar as it would lose heat, does I assume it does need to increase the pressure to maintain target temp at the group but is this cycle correct?


 I know @Jason11 hasn't been here for a while (maybe due to tapatalk, not sure) - but I know he often leaves his machine on all day. Would be great if you both could do some sort of meaningful experiment with the same parameters, and check wether the behaviour is the same).

So I think the best thing you can do is to compare the behaviour with another MaraX owner, preferably from the same batch/build date, as sometimes manufacturers might change things around slightly.


----------



## pandabear

Forgot to add, this was with the top cover plate *off *the machine to inspect whilst working. Not sure if this affects anything, assuming it shouldn't!



pandabear said:


> Just coming back to this, having watching the machine more closely it doesn't appear to idle and stay static. When resting in coffee priority mode on the lowest temp (0), the machine will idle down to 0.5 and stay there for a few minutes, then it slowly climbs back to 1.5 and stays there for a few minutes before then activating the pump for a couple of seconds and then dropping again, before the cycle restarts.
> 
> Is this normal behaviour? I can imagine that the temperature in the boiler fluctuates and it cannot idle forever at ~0.5 bar as it would lose heat, does I assume it does need to increase the pressure to maintain target temp at the group but is this cycle correct?
> 
> FWIW when I have tested this at the middle temp (I) it does this same cycle but increases the "baseline" idle temp up to circa ~1 bar. Haven't tested at highest temp (II) yet.


----------



## DavecUK

@pandabear Doesn't sound right to me....having the cover off will affect nothing. A lot of times during reviewing and testing the covers of the machines I use are off. Sometimes it's like a machine nudist colony here 🤣


----------



## pandabear

DavecUK said:


> @pandabear Doesn't sound right to me....having the cover off will affect nothing. A lot of times during reviewing and testing the covers of the machines I use are off. Sometimes it's like a machine nudist colony here 🤣


 @DavecUK 😂

I rung BB earlier and spoke to their support team and they said that as I described it to them, they expect this behaviour to be normal but if I wasn't happy then I could ring back and speak to their manager (Martin). Would you suggest I ring them back again or is there something I could try changing on the machine/routine to try and rectify? I already flushed the group 500ml when cold to make sure the issue wasn't being caused by air in the boiler.


----------



## DavecUK

@pandabear Too keep it simple.

*If I turn my machine on and come back to it after 1 hour...touching nothing, flushing nothing, doing nothing....it will sit at 0.6 bar or whatever.....it won't rise every few minutes and then fall again.* I'm running next years software...however I don't remember the current software I had loaded doing this either.

When you talk about flushing and whatnot it can confuse the issue. The bit in bold is key.....do that and then watch it after 1 hour...see what it does.


----------



## pandabear

@DavecUK cheers, will give that a test run in the morning and report back. I take from your instructions that within that first hour or so then that the pressure might be susceptible to fluctuations whilst it settles into an idle, in normal conditions?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

pandabear said:


> @DavecUK cheers, will give that a test run in the morning and report back. I take from your instructions that within that first hour or so then that the pressure might be susceptible to fluctuations whilst it settles into an idle, in normal conditions?


 I think what Dave means is that the machine should idle at 0.5bar or thereabouts. Every so often (maybe, once every hour?) the machine will purge the HX into the drip tray so the HX doesn't overheat. As Dave says, when idling the machine's pressure should remain low, and not fluctuate to 1.5 bar.

Leave the machine in coffee brew mode (the top half of the switch depressed). BB for whichever reason thinks brew and steam mode are inverted, but let's not get to that. Talk about the position of the switch.

Turn the machine on tomorrow and let it warm up and do its thing. Wait an hour, take notes. Make a coffee, steam milk, clean it up and let it idle for at least one hour, observe, take notes.

When you call Bella Barista on Monday, send them your notes. Ask them to do the same with their machines (make sure the switch positions are also in the same position). If yours do strange things and theirs don't, then your machine has a problem, there's no argument against it.


----------



## pandabear

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I think what Dave means is that the machine should idle at 0.5bar or thereabouts. Every so often (maybe, once every hour?) the machine will purge the HX into the drip tray so the HX doesn't overheat. As Dave says, when idling the machine's pressure should remain low, and not fluctuate to 1.5 bar.
> 
> Leave the machine in coffee brew mode (the top half of the switch depressed). BB for whichever reason thinks brew and steam mode are inverted, but let's not get to that. Talk about the position of the switch.
> 
> Turn the machine on tomorrow and let it warm up and do its thing. Wait an hour, take notes. Make a coffee, steam milk, clean it up and let it idle for at least one hour, observe, take notes.
> 
> When you call Bella Barista on Monday, send them your notes. Ask them to do the same with their machines (make sure the switch positions are also in the same position). If yours do strange things and theirs don't, then your machine has a problem, there's no argument against it.





Burnzy said:


> Yeah i think it can be anywhere in these ranges - according to the Advanced Tech Manual.
> 
> View attachment 42435


 Yeah I'll do the observations tomorrow as best I can. Difficult with a baby on the loose though! Interestingly I have just come across this post from a previous thread - the technical manual seems to suggest that the steam pressure can fluctuate between ~0.5 and ~1.6 bar if the machine hasn't been used (assuming that means after it's reached target temperature). The Extended Guide from BB also suggests temperature keeping might fluctuate the pressure between 0.4 and 2 bar...


----------



## thawhat

@pandabear Ignore the extended guide. Honestly that guide is pretty pointless. What you're describing is EXACTLY what mine started doing a while back. Contacted BB about it and Martin sent me out a new temp sensor and it seems to have fixed the problem for the most part. Machine back to 0.5-0.75 idle and solid temp stability for shots. However, every so often the machine seems to get stuck at 1.5 bar which results in a overheated group. This only happens after leaving the machine to stabilise after round of shots so I'm keeping my eye on that as I'll report it back to BB if it becomes more frequent.

Long story short... tell them exactly what Dave put and they should get it sorted. BB's customer service is usually spot on with this as it's not the first time they've dealt with this issue and it definitely won't be the last.


----------



## pandabear

@DavecUK @MediumRoastSteam I did one better and recorded a 1hr 20m time-lapse from machine start-up this morning. I have to comment and say that I have seen my MaraX activate the pump and purge itself up to 3 times during/after warmup and whilst idling before I made a shot, so it was strange not to see that in this example. See what you think anyway. This is as Dave said, completely untouched during this time. Parameters: PF loaded in group, coffee priority mode, temperature setting I (medium/92-94c). Link is here:

https://streamable.com/2jbcbo

@thawhat Interesting, see the video I recorded this morning and if this correlates with the issue you saw.


----------



## pandabear

And this is how it behaves post shot and milk steam:

https://streamable.com/lgaihn

Video taken over an hour (Sorry, no stopwatch to capture relative time on this one, but for rough reference it does the ~1.5 hovering for 10 minutes and then bottoms out at 0.5 bar at 20 mins in before settling into that ~0.5 to ~1 bar cycle for the following 40 mins. Two pump purges in this, a 2 second one at then end of the 1.5 bar hovering and a 4 second one just before it bottoms out at 0.5 bar before cycling).


----------



## DavecUK

I might have the wrong end of the stick, I thought it was cycling every few minutes?


----------



## pandabear

It was certainly going through wider ranges of pressure changes literally yesterday. I was on the phone to BB whilst it was idling and it went from 1 bar down to 0.5, then up to 1.5 when it purged and then dropped again.

I don't know what to say because I expected more erratic movements to what I captured this morning.

Is what I've captured considered normal in terms of machine behaviour?


----------



## DavecUK

pandabear said:


> It was certainly going through wider ranges of pressure changes literally yesterday. I was on the phone to BB whilst it was idling and it went from 1 bar down to 0.5, then up to 1.5 when it purged and then dropped again.
> 
> I don't know what to say because I expected more erratic movements to what I captured this morning.
> 
> Is what I've captured considered normal in terms of machine behaviour?


 Possibly assuming it captured every rise and fall, didn't seem like many


----------



## pandabear

Maybe it was me getting the wrong end of the stick then! I assumed that when people talked about idling it would literally mean the machine settled as a value and didn't move. If constantly varying the pressure between 0.5 and 1 is normal when targeting the temp on medium setting then I'm happy enough with that.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

pandabear said:


> Maybe it was me getting the wrong end of the stick then! I assumed that when people talked about idling it would literally mean the machine settled as a value and didn't move. If constantly varying the pressure between 0.5 and 1 is normal when targeting the temp on medium setting then I'm happy enough with that.


 My understanding and assumption from your earlier post (think Dave understood the same) was that the machine was emptying the HX every few minutes. Maybe that was the confusing bit.


----------



## Doram

pandabear said:


> @DavecUK @MediumRoastSteam I did one better and recorded a 1hr 20m time-lapse from machine start-up this morning. I have to comment and say that I have seen my MaraX activate the pump and purge itself up to 3 times during/after warmup and whilst idling before I made a shot, so it was strange not to see that in this example. See what you think anyway. This is as Dave said, completely untouched during this time. Parameters: PF loaded in group, coffee priority mode, temperature setting I (medium/92-94c). Link is here:
> 
> https://streamable.com/2jbcbo
> 
> @thawhat Interesting, see the video I recorded this morning and if this correlates with the issue you saw.


 @pandabear I think your machine is showing normal behaviour in those time-lapse videos (or at least it behaves just like mine).

To show this, I replicated your videos on my machine (with speed x150).

First video is one hour, starting from cold, coffee mode, temp setting 0. You can see that once the machine settles, it moves between ~0.75 and ~1.25 (same as yours):

View attachment Mara X from cold.mp4


Second video is again one hour, but now idling after a shot and steam (so first cooling down from ~1.5, then hovering between ~0.75 to just over 1):

View attachment Mara X idle after shot.mp4


Lelit Insider has a video showing the machine over a much longer time. In the beginning it seems that the fluctuations are smaller, but later they seem to increase a bit:






My understanding is that this is Mara X doing it's thing and keeping the group at the correct temperature. I remember seeing a video showing that no matter what the pressure is, as soon as the shot starts the group is in the correct temp, so I think this is how it should work. If you find otherwise, please let me know too. 🙂


----------



## pandabear

> 18 hours ago, Doram said:
> 
> @pandabear I think your machine is showing normal behaviour in those time-lapse videos (or at least it behaves just like mine).
> 
> To show this, I replicated your videos on my machine (with speed x150).
> 
> First video is one hour, starting from cold, coffee mode, temp setting 0. You can see that once the machine settles, it moves between ~0.75 and ~1.25 (same as yours):
> 
> View attachment 57465
> 
> 
> Second video is again one hour, but now idling after a shot and steam (so first cooling down from ~1.5, then hovering between ~0.75 to just over 1):
> 
> View attachment 57464
> 
> 
> Lelit Insider has a video showing the machine over a much longer time. In the beginning it seems that the fluctuations are smaller, but later they seem to increase a bit:


 @Doram thanks so much for posting this, I actually scoured Lelit Insider's videos trying to find something that showed it and couldn't find it! That plus putting your own time and effort in, really appreciate the help and confirmation that it's just me worrying more than anything.

Side story: when fiddling about trying to get cables/pipes tied when changing the OPV mod I actually nicked the outer sheath of one of the cables going to the underneath of the boiler and although I'm sure it hasn't gone through to the inner wire I was (irrationally) nervous that this may have changed something nonetheless - I've taped it over with electrical heat tape now just for safety anyway.

FYI I changed from the no-extras mod (swap the X and Y connectors) to your original way of doing it and I still get noise through the machine when pulling a shot. Almost like a slight churning sound. I've spent a fair few hours over the last few days with the case off the machine trying to isolate the sound and I think it's just something in the way my OPV is set up. I don't get the noise when running water through the group naked, in fact I only get it once the pre-infusion has finished and pressure has ramped up to ~10 bar so that all but confirms my thinking.


----------



## Doram

pandabear said:


> Side story: when fiddling about trying to get cables/pipes tied when changing the OPV mod I actually nicked the outer sheath of one of the cables going to the underneath of the boiler and although I'm sure it hasn't gone through to the inner wire I was (irrationally) nervous that this may have changed something nonetheless - I've taped it over with electrical heat tape now just for safety anyway.


 I think you can relax about this. No electricity will leak out, lol. If it's working and you taped over for protection - it's most likely fine.



pandabear said:


> FYI I changed from the no-extras mod (swap the X and Y connectors) to your original way of doing it and I still get noise through the machine when pulling a shot. Almost like a slight churning sound. I've spent a fair few hours over the last few days with the case off the machine trying to isolate the sound and I think it's just something in the way my OPV is set up. I don't get the noise when running water through the group naked, in fact I only get it once the pre-infusion has finished and pressure has ramped up to ~10 bar so that all but confirms my thinking.


 I think it was established that the only possible reason for this slight 'gurgling' sound is small air bubbles reaching the pump. @DavecUK said there should be no negative effect to that and he would do it himself and not worry about it (he mentioned one caveat, that he doesn't know if this can have any long term effect on the pump, but I think this is just because he, fairly, doesn't want to take responsibility for something he hasn't tried himself). For me this is good enough, but if you are worried you can direct the OPV discharge to the tank.


----------



## pandabear

Doram said:


> I think you can relax about this. No electricity will leak out, lol. If it's working and you taped over for protection - it's most likely fine.
> 
> I think it was established that the only possible reason for this slight 'gurgling' sound is small air bubbles reaching the pump. @DavecUK said there should be no negative effect to that and he would do it himself and not worry about it (he mentioned one caveat, that he doesn't know if this can have any long term effect on the pump, but I think this is just because he, fairly, doesn't want to take responsibility for something he hasn't tried himself). For me this is good enough, but if you are worried you can direct the OPV discharge to the tank.


 Oh yeah, was just a little irrationally worried that it might have screwed up a temperature measurement and that might have been why I was seeing variability in pressure when I had assumed idle meant 100% static. Errors on my part really.

It's a shame there isn't a way to diagnose if me/other users will have the OPV issue consistently or if there is a way to prevent the bubbles reaching the pump. I've tried my OPV hose at all angles - really high and looping to try and draw the bubbles to the top, as straight-lined to the pump inlet as possible and in-between. There does not seem to be a catch-all fix and it's quite baffling to me how some machines suffer from it and others don't. I would have thought it would be black and white, it exists or it doesn't.


----------



## Mistle

Can you rinse your portafilter under the group quickly between shots without messing with the brew temp or steam pressure? I recall reading somewhere you can't and have to clean the filter under the tap or brush the grinds out.


----------



## pingpong

Hi All,

my pump pressure for my 1 month old Mara X when doing backflush with blind filter basket is 12bar!!! is this the highest registered here? i know i could easily adjust the pressure via the OPV. but i don't really want to do that to keep the warranty valid.

should i be overly concern with the 12bar pressure?

thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

pingpong said:


> but i don't really want to do that to keep the warranty valid.


 Adjusting the OPV should not void you warranty. How would they ever know?


----------



## DavecUK

@pingpong Just adjust it down to 9.5 bar....It's a 5 minute job


----------



## puit

Hi all,

First post, quick question. I very much appreciate all the info on this thread.

I ordered a USB cable to connect my MaraX to a raspberry, like explained in the reddit thread linked below. My question is: can I just turn the machine on its side or head, or do I first need to drain the boiler (or perhaps some other precautions)?

OPV side note: Indeed quite easy (you don't even need to pull off the hose sticking out of the top of the OPV, at least I didn't), set mine to 8.5 and it is very much worth it.

Thanks in advance,

Thomas


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/hft5zv


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

puit said:


> My question is: can I just turn the machine on its side or head, or do I first need to drain the boiler (or perhaps some other precautions)?


 Welcome.

the boiler is a sealed unit, apart from the vacuum breaker which, if you turn it upside down, will shut. Then you have the group which may leak. And of course the tank, but that's obvious and should be removed.

It shouldn't be a problem, just remember that the machine is designed to stay on its feet. Therefore, turning it sideways or upside down might risk you damaging panels or scratching/denting the group which is made of brass, a soft material.

if it was me, I'd work with the machine on top of books or other form structure, but I wouldn't turn it upside down. But that's me. Good luck!


----------



## puit

Thanks for the prompt reply. Good to know it should be fine, but indeed tilting (if that is what you were implying) with the aid of some books / wife might be worth a try!

Thomas


----------



## DavecUK

@puit I've put mine on it's side before no problems, but I always use a nice fluffy towel ot avoid damage.


----------



## pingpong

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Adjusting the OPV should not void you warranty. How would they ever know?


 not sure how strict the local agent is. i am also worried i may leave some scratch marks when adjusting, showing evidences that i opened up the machine


----------



## pingpong

DavecUK said:


> @pingpong Just adjust it down to 9.5 bar....It's a 5 minute job


 @DavecUK tempting but till i read this from one of the Lelit FB group:


----------



## Mistle

Thoughts on James Hoffman saying the MaraX gauge should read 8 bar if you want 9 bar at the pump?

I really just want my machine set at the standard of "9 bar" but it seems there's conflicting reports on how to do this. I've heard to leave it at 10, it'll actually be 9! Or no, the gauge is accurate, set it to 9! And now Hoffman says to get 9, it should actually be 8. 🙃


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Mistle said:


> Thoughts on James Hoffman saying the MaraX gauge should read 8 bar if you want 9 bar at the pump?
> 
> I really just want my machine set at the standard of "9 bar" but it seems there's conflicting reports on how to do this. I've heard to leave it at 10, it'll actually be 9! Or no, the gauge is accurate, set it to 9! And now Hoffman says to get 9, it should actually be 8. 🙃


 Yeah. I found that very confusing too. Maybe @DavecUK could test this for us and put this question to bed?

interesting however, they a member here found exactly the same (ages ago):

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48398-mara-x/?do=embed&comment=805856&embedComment=805856&embedDo=findComment

What @Garfield found was *exactly *what James Hoffman is saying, but 6 months ago.

part of me wonders whether this would be the exact same for the Elizabeth.


----------



## pingpong

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yeah. I found that very confusing too. Maybe @DavecUK could test this for us and put this question to bed?
> 
> interesting however, they a member here found exactly the same (ages ago):
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48398-mara-x/?do=embed&comment=805856&embedComment=805856&embedDo=findComment
> 
> What @Garfield found was *exactly *what James Hoffman is saying, but 6 months ago.
> 
> part of me wonders whether this would be the exact same for the Elizabeth.


 from this youtube video, the manometer and the gauge at the portafilter shows the same readings


----------



## DavecUK

@MediumRoastSteam A gross simplification below for pressure in a dynamic system. It depends on how/what you're testing, the flow rate of the pump and resistance in different parts of the system. Obviously grossly simplified and in the first example B would tend towards Zero. The Green arrows try and indicate the resistance posed by the exit hole. The green arrow near the pump denotes the capability of the pump. Hence the pump has a capacity that is not infinite.









The logical last image which I haven't the time to draw would be where both holes are the same size....then A should tend towards equalling B. It can never quite equal B because of the resistance of the container plus weight and viscocity of fluid being moved. This will always cause a small pressure drop in a dynamic system.

P.S. All gauges might not read the same (accuracy) in the real world


----------



## Mistle

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yeah. I found that very confusing too. Maybe @DavecUK could test this for us and put this question to bed?
> 
> interesting however, they a member here found exactly the same (ages ago):
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48398-mara-x/?do=embed&comment=805856&embedComment=805856&embedDo=findComment
> 
> What @Garfield found was *exactly *what James Hoffman is saying, but 6 months ago.
> 
> part of me wonders whether this would be the exact same for the Elizabeth.


 Hmm. I have a portafilter with a gauge attached (not unlike the one in your link) and it measures exactly the same as the one on my machine. Which sort of implies that user may have just had a badly calibrated gauge, no?


----------



## pingpong

DavecUK said:


> @MediumRoastSteam A gross simplification below. It depends on how/what you're testing, the flow rate of the pump and resistance in different parts of the system. Obviously grossly simplified and in the first example B would tend towards Zero. The Green arrows try and indicate the resistance posed by the exit hole. The green arrow near the pump denotes the capability of the pump. Hence the pump has a capacity that is not infinite.
> 
> View attachment 57903
> 
> 
> The logical last image which I haven't the time to draw would be where both holes are the same size....then A should tend towards equalling B. It can never quite equal B because of the resistance of the container plus weight and viscocity of fluid being moved. This will always cause a small pressure drop in a dynamic system.
> 
> P.S. All gauges might not read the same (accuracy) in the real world


 @DavecUK thanks for the explanation.. in short -> set the pressure to 9.5bar? 😉


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Mistle said:


> Hmm. I have a portafilter with a gauge attached (not unlike the one in your link) and it measures exactly the same as the one on my machine. Which sort of implies that user may have just had a badly calibrated gauge, no?


 If here's no flowing the portafilter - assuming that's what you have - both manometers will measure the same as the whole circuit is primed and under the same pressure. You need a pressurize gauge which could simulate the coffee flowing through it - those are expensive.

edit: @pingpong- same issue with the video you posted. Useless for this case. 😉


----------



## Mistle

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If here's no flowing the portafilter - assuming that's what you have - both manometers will measure the same as the whole circuit is primed and under the same pressure. You need a pressurize gauge which could simulate the coffee flowing through it - those are expensive.


 Didn't Hoffman use a gauge that simulates flow and it measured the same as the machine also?

For what it's worth, I found this comment on Reddit regarding this topic and it sums up what Hoffman was trying to say:

"He mentions in the video that the Mara pressure gauge somewhat surprisingly displays a close approximation of the pressure at the group (similar to scace) whereas the other machine's pressure gauges were displaying the pump pressure. There seems to be about a 1 bar drop in pressure from the pump to what is introduced to the puck in the group. Therefore, seeing 8 bar on the Mara pressure gauge would be an equivalent to 9 bar from the pump give or take."

If this is true (and apologies for spreading misinformation if not) I guess the question I have is, is conventional wisdom to have 9 bar at the pump or the puck?


----------



## DavecUK

For a *vibe pump machine, *just set the pump between 9 and 10 on the machines gauge when running against a blind filter, and it will all be good.


----------



## Mistle

DavecUK said:


> For a *vibe pump machine, *just set the pump between 9 and 10 on the machines gauge when running against a blind filter, and it will all be good.


 So far my taste buds agree with that (tried 8 bar and felt it lacked texture, but didn't truly experiment so who's to say what the cause was). Cheers


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Mistle said:


> So far my taste buds agree with that (tried 8 bar and felt it lacked texture, but didn't truly experiment so who's to say what the cause was). Cheers


 I know what you are saying re: Hoffman. And then also got me confused. It goes against everything that's common knowledge around vibe pumps, I.e.: 10bar at the gauge is what should be - and now James says the opposite - quite literally.

Check this:






so, I'll take what Dave says and the conventional wisdom. But ultimately, it's about your tastebuds: you tried with 8 bar, you didn't like it. And that's what's important.


----------



## efrain-PR

My Mara X which is 15 months old probably the first batch that came to the USA, ( manufacturing date of February 2020) was set at 10 bars from the factory, and today I tested it with the blind filter and shows the same 10 bars at the brew head (I have a the Lelit brew head gauge installed) and at the other pressure gauge. I did install the Bianca pressure profile kit and if I grind to fine I'll just compensate to 9 bars with the paddle. By the way I have not had any issues with the machine, has worked flawlessly.


----------



## Apfelkuchen

@DavecUK

Does it make sense to use the MaraX with Paddle for Light Roasts? I do like the look, footprint and the possibility to upgrade the paddle.

Are there any advantages having a MaraX + Paddle instead of going for a more modern machine like a Lelit Elizabeth with the LCC for Light Roasts?

Thanks for the input!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Apfelkuchen said:


> Are there any advantages having a MaraX + Paddle instead of going for a more modern machine like a Lelit Elizabeth with the LCC for Light Roasts


 I wouldn't say that the Elizabeth's pre-infusion is anything to be amazed by when comparing to E61 + flow valve. Elizabeth is an entry level dual boiler; MaraX is a top of the range HX machine (On the Lelit range).


----------



## bpowell555

Hi chaps, my marax lost pressure soon after I bought it but after I think Dave suggested on here a cool down it did recover. It happened again yesterday on pulling a second shot in the morning and despite being off overnight it hasn't really improved. Won't go above 2 bar on a blind filter. Tank refill after drain from the tap was almost there but now is just very weak and slow. Does it need to be left off longer? I tried taking off the filter (which is only a couple of weeks old) and no difference. It went from working perfectly to not at all. Its possible its the guage but I don't think so. Any suggestions? About to break out the Aeropress! 😭


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

bpowell555 said:


> Won't go above 2 bar on a blind filter


 Interesting. Someone here is having a similar issue.

Here:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/60719-marax-solutions-i-think-i-have-introduced-air-bubbles-to-system-when-changing-the-filter/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=848544&embedComment=848544&embedDo=findComment#comment-848544

maybe you two should chat. 👍 - good luck.


----------



## Plopmaster5000

DavecUK said:


> Too keep it simple.
> 
> *If I turn my machine on and come back to it after 1 hour...touching nothing, flushing nothing, doing nothing....it will sit at 0.6 bar or whatever.....it won't rise every few minutes and then fall again.* I'm running next years software...however I don't remember the current software I had loaded doing this either.
> 
> When you talk about flushing and whatnot it can confuse the issue. The bit in bold is key.....do that and then watch it after 1 hour...see what it does.


 @DavecUK hey, is it worth waiting to buy the next/future version with updated firmware? Any indication if they'll release a version with an LCC/display?

thanks


----------



## DavecUK

@Plopmaster5000 No idea really


----------



## Plopmaster5000

DavecUK said:


> @Plopmaster5000 No idea really


 Much difference in the test firmware?


----------



## Acorn

My MaraX arrived yesterday! 🤩 I agree with others on here who remarked that it looks much better in the flesh than the photos! Thanks to all on here for advice, reviews etc. @DavecUK deserves a mention of course, your efforts are much appreciated!

First shot this morning, pleased to say everything's working exactly as expected. The steam kick after a shot really makes a difference. One Q to fellow MaraXers: since it uses a preinfusion phase, should I expect my shots to run for longer? So rather than 25-30s, are you finding yourself closer to 40s?

I'm going to see how it runs as standard before considering the water redirect mod -- I got ~100ml in the drip tray from warming up + pulling a shot this morning, I might not bother with the mod to be honest.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Acorn said:


> One Q to fellow MaraXers: since it uses a preinfusion phase, should I expect my shots to run for longer? So rather than 25-30s, are you finding yourself closer to 40s?


 Ignore the E61 pre infusion. Let your taste buds guide you. If you are happy with a 40s shot, then so be it. If it's 35s or 30s, that's fine too!


----------



## Doram

Acorn said:


> First shot this morning, pleased to say everything's working exactly as expected. The steam kick after a shot really makes a difference. One Q to fellow MaraXers: since it uses a preinfusion phase, should I expect my shots to run for longer? So rather than 25-30s, are you finding yourself closer to 40s?


 That's exactly right: "normal" shots run a bit slower, so 35-40 seconds is sort of equivalent to 25-30 on other machines. A 25 second shot on Mara X is probably a bit too fast. As @MediumRoastSteamsaid, ultimately if you like the taste, the time doesn't matter. However, at the beginning of your journey with a new machine it is probably helpful to have some basic numbers that work for other people.



Acorn said:


> I'm going to see how it runs as standard before considering the water redirect mod -- I got ~100ml in the drip tray from warming up + pulling a shot this morning, I might not bother with the mod to be honest.


 As you are in Cambridge, your tap water will be hard. Hopefully you will use better water for your machine, in which case you might well find that the OPV re-rout mod is a very nice improvement.


----------



## Acorn

Doram said:


> That's exactly right: "normal" shots run a bit slower, so 35-40 seconds is sort of equivalent to 25-30 on other machines. A 25 second shot on Mara X is probably a bit too fast. As @MediumRoastSteamsaid, ultimately if you like the taste, the time doesn't matter. However, at the beginning of your journey with a new machine it is probably helpful to have some basic numbers that work for other people.
> 
> As you are in Cambridge, your tap water will be hard. Hopefully you will use better water for your machine, in which case you might well find that the OPV re-rout mod is a very nice improvement.


 Thanks, it's running around the 30s mark but on the sour side of things. But I can also see channelling, so puck prep needs work too! Definitely can taste all kinds of things that the Gaggia did not get out of the beans, super happy with the bump up in overall quality.

I'm using bottled water (Ashbeck), you're absolutely right about Cambridge tap water - would be a death sentence to the machine! Will see how it goes, the mod's easy enough.


----------



## Tjyven

Taste is of corse everything but I usually get best results between 28-32 seconds.


----------



## itguy

I get the same - anywhere between 28 and 32 seconds from lever up to lever down.


----------



## iBear87

Oh my... After reading a lot on various problems you all are having with your Mara X machines, I am seriously reconsidering purchasing it... It seems I will have to play too much with the internals and spend least time extracting the dark goodness with it. I am now thinking if maybe Flair 58 would be a better choice for me... Would void all the problems with the valves and pressures... Any opinions? Does anyone regret purchase?

Best,

Ivan


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

iBear87 said:


> Oh my... After reading a lot on various problems you all are having with your Mara X machines, I am seriously reconsidering purchasing it... It seems I will have to play too much with the internals and spend least time extracting the dark goodness with it. I am now thinking if maybe Flair 58 would be a better choice for me... Would void all the problems with the valves and pressures... Any opinions? Does anyone regret purchase?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Ivan


 Which problems are you talking about specifically?


----------



## iBear87

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Which problems are you talking about specifically?


 The pressure problems mentioned and/or newer problems of over pressurising and similar. Most of the posts people had to open it to change things and or test it. For me, personally, seems futile to have such a machine if I have to constantly fix things. I mean that is the impression I have from reading posts about the Mara X recently. Gave me quite a scare from buying one. 

Just want to check how problematic is to use one?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@iBear87 - personally, if you want to buy any coffee machine which is not a kitchen appliance (e.g: Sage) then you are better off understanding what goes on. Valves will fail, probes and sensors will fail, on any machine. The key for happiness is to be behind a retailer or manufacturer which will support you should something go wrong during he warranty period. Also, it is up to the user to look after the machine, treating it nicely, putting good water in it and doing the right level of maintenance, including lubrication of parts.

if this is something which you are not comfortable with, a more simplistic design like the Flair or the Robot can be ideal. You'll still need to do basic maintenance though. Mind you, those do not steam milk, or have a good degree of temperature control.

Also, don't forget that potentially thousands of MaraX units were and are being sold, and, in the grand scheme of of things, the ones which had a faulty sensor were a very insignificant portion of them. Of course, people only tend to come and post on a forum because they have problems. Not many post first time to say how great their machine is.


----------



## iBear87

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @iBear87 - personally, if you want to buy any coffee machine which is not a kitchen appliance (e.g: Sage) then you are better off understanding what goes on. Valves will fail, probes and sensors will fail, on any machine. The key for happiness is to be behind a retailer or manufacturer which will support you should something go wrong during he warranty period. Also, it is up to the user to look after the machine, treating it nicely, putting good water in it and doing the right level of maintenance, including lubrication of parts.
> 
> if this is something which you are not comfortable with, a more simplistic design like the Flair or the Robot can be ideal. You'll still need to do basic maintenance though. Mind you, those do not steam milk, or have a good degree of temperature control.
> 
> Also, don't forget that potentially thousands of MaraX units were and are being sold, and, in the grand scheme of of things, the ones which had a faulty sensor were a very insignificant portion of them. Of course, people only tend to come and post on a forum because they have problems. Not many post first time to say how great their machine is.


 Thank you for your input!

i think the main problem here is that in Croatia there is no one who can service it and it would be coming from Germany if I end up buying one. 
i think that the whole process of obtaining spare parts would be too cumbersome. 
will have to think about it further.

Isn't flair 58 with electric heating quite stable at holding it? At least that is what they say.

One last question, do you (or anyone else reading this) think that Flair 58 might give good espresso as Mara? Or would the difference be quite high?

Thank you in advance! Quite troubled with the decision at this point&#8230;

I preordered Eureka Oro Single Dose as a grinder. Now need a machine up to 1000€ worth. ☺

Best regards,

Ivan


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@iBear87 - Ivan, I think along this thread there was someone in a similar position as you. I can't remember his forum name.

but you do raise a valid point. Aren't there retailers or distributors in Croatia which may stock other machines you could take a look at, and at least feel supported should anything happen?

as for the Flair, I don't have one, so I have no idea.

edit: found The member. It's @Garfield (think his name is Miroslav). Also in Croatia. Hope you two can chat and exchange some experiences. Enjoy!


----------



## iBear87

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @iBear87 - Ivan, I think along this thread there was someone in a similar position as you. I can't remember his forum name.
> 
> but you do raise a valid point. Aren't there retailers or distributors in Croatia which may stock other machines you could take a look at, and at least feel supported should anything happen?
> 
> as for the Flair, I don't have one, so I have no idea.


 Tried looking into it, but only Rocket so far and that breaks my budget heavily. 
will have to think hard on this one.

Do you think that one could do most of the repairs on his own? Maintenance too?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

iBear87 said:


> Tried looking into it, but only Rocket so far and that breaks my budget heavily.
> will have to think hard on this one.
> 
> Do you think that one could do most of the repairs on his own? Maintenance too?


 repair wise&#8230; it's tricky. You need to be confident, you need to know what you are doing, what the components do, diagnose etc. ACS sells machines directly I think, and they offer a parts only guarantee. Some (including ACS) are very helpful and can guide you though a repair either by contacting them or via the forum. A Minima may be well suitable for you too, but it might be above your budget. However, it's a dual boiler machine, and it uses very box standard components. And, on top of everything, it's almost maintenance free, as the group is operated by a solenoid valve, rather than mechanical. (http://www.elcor.it/minima-en/)

Ps: I edited the post above, I found the member.


----------



## iBear87

MediumRoastSteam said:


> repair wise&#8230; it's tricky. You need to be confident, you need to know what you are doing, what the components do, diagnose etc. ACS sells machines directly I think, and they offer a parts only guarantee. Some (including ACS) are very helpful and can guide you though a repair either by contacting them or via the forum. A Minima may be well suitable for you too, but it might be above your budget. However, it's a dual boiler machine, and it uses very box standard components. And, on top of everything, it's almost maintenance free, as the group is operated by a solenoid valve, rather than mechanical. (http://www.elcor.it/minima-en/)
> 
> Ps: I edited the post above, I found the member.


 Just texted him! Thank you! ☺☺☺


----------



## iBear87

MediumRoastSteam said:


> repair wise&#8230; it's tricky. You need to be confident, you need to know what you are doing, what the components do, diagnose etc. ACS sells machines directly I think, and they offer a parts only guarantee. Some (including ACS) are very helpful and can guide you though a repair either by contacting them or via the forum. A Minima may be well suitable for you too, but it might be above your budget. However, it's a dual boiler machine, and it uses very box standard components. And, on top of everything, it's almost maintenance free, as the group is operated by a solenoid valve, rather than mechanical. (http://www.elcor.it/minima-en/)
> 
> Ps: I edited the post above, I found the member.


 Quick question, can it be fitted with a flow profiler like Mara? ☺

I'm comfortable with digging around the machine. I just want to buy something that is more or less good build to reduce the need to fix it as much as possible. Like buying low brand car vs higher brand. If I managed to explain it right.


----------



## DavecUK

iBear87 said:


> Quick question, can it be fitted with a flow profiler like Mara? ☺
> 
> I'm comfortable with digging around the machine. I just want to buy something that is more or less good build to reduce the need to fix it as much as possible. Like buying low brand car vs higher brand. If I managed to explain it right.


 Yes it can be fitted with a flow profiler

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2019/08/30/acs-minima-with-lelit-flow-profiling-kit/


----------



## iBear87

MediumRoastSteam said:


> repair wise&#8230; it's tricky. You need to be confident, you need to know what you are doing, what the components do, diagnose etc. ACS sells machines directly I think, and they offer a parts only guarantee. Some (including ACS) are very helpful and can guide you though a repair either by contacting them or via the forum. A Minima may be well suitable for you too, but it might be above your budget. However, it's a dual boiler machine, and it uses very box standard components. And, on top of everything, it's almost maintenance free, as the group is operated by a solenoid valve, rather than mechanical. (http://www.elcor.it/minima-en/)
> 
> Ps: I edited the post above, I found the member.


 Just checked Minima! Looks great and seems to be what I am looking for but.... Costs way off what I can afford. 

So I guess I am back to Flair 58 since the whole Mara X thing seems to be way too unreliable to me. Thank you all for your time and patience 

Ivan


----------



## Hellsent

Last weekend my gf had a birthday party at a bunkhouse with about 20-30 guests. I decided to take my coffee setup for the mornings to give people some good coffee.

My setup is:

MaraX, 18g VST basket & Baratza Sette30 (with 270 adjustment ring)

Tbh my biggest worry was the grinder melting itself but thankfully people were happy to wait and chat as I didn't want to rush the coffees for people.

The first day I left the MaraX on the Coffee priority mode AND I was offering both big and small cups to people (which was a mistake) obviously everybody wanted a big cup, so there was large volumes of milk to steam each time.

After about 6 big coffees I had to stop as I'd ran out of steam.

The next day I switched it to Steam priority mode and it worked wonderfully! Obviously not everybody there was a coffee aficionado but they all enjoyed "proper" coffee regardless of me having to flush the group head and guesstimating the temperature. Was totally worth it to have more steam pressure available.

I also limited the cups to small cups the second day and was able to do waaaay more coffees back to back.

There was water underneath the machine after the first day, but this could have been me letting to much go into the drip tray, there's been no issues since.

Overall really pleased I was able to "show it off" to people, I think it's a super capable machine for these kind of events. I definitely need to do the drip tray re-route mod as I did have to empty the drip tray quite often due to the amount of drinks.


----------



## iBear87

Hellsent said:


> Last weekend my gf had a birthday party at a bunkhouse with about 20-30 guests. I decided to take my coffee setup for the mornings to give people some good coffee.
> 
> My setup is:
> 
> MaraX, 18g VST basket & Baratza Sette30 (with 270 adjustment ring)
> 
> Tbh my biggest worry was the grinder melting itself but thankfully people were happy to wait and chat as I didn't want to rush the coffees for people.
> 
> The first day I left the MaraX on the Coffee priority mode AND I was offering both big and small cups to people (which was a mistake) obviously everybody wanted a big cup, so there was large volumes of milk to steam each time.
> 
> After about 6 big coffees I had to stop as I'd ran out of steam.
> 
> The next day I switched it to Steam priority mode and it worked wonderfully! Obviously not everybody there was a coffee aficionado but they all enjoyed "proper" coffee regardless of me having to flush the group head and guesstimating the temperature. Was totally worth it to have more steam pressure available.
> 
> I also limited the cups to small cups the second day and was able to do waaaay more coffees back to back.
> 
> There was water underneath the machine after the first day, but this could have been me letting to much go into the drip tray, there's been no issues since.
> 
> Overall really pleased I was able to "show it off" to people, I think it's a super capable machine for these kind of events. I definitely need to do the drip tray re-route mod as I did have to empty the drip tray quite often due to the amount of drinks.


 Wow!

This is great to hear! So you just flushed water do bring the temperature down and all in all it went well! Happy to hear that!

Which basically means, if I am correct, keep it in brew priority for 2-3 cups and do it within 5min and for a party switch it up and flush it as a regular HX?

Btw., maybe wait with the reroute until you're out of the warranty period not to void it?


----------



## Hellsent

iBear87 said:


> Wow!
> 
> This is great to hear! So you just flushed water do bring the temperature down and all in all it went well! Happy to hear that!
> 
> Which basically means, if I am correct, keep it in brew priority for 2-3 cups and do it within 5min and for a party switch it up and flush it as a regular HX?
> 
> Btw., maybe wait with the reroute until you're out of the warranty period not to void it?


 Yep! I make about 4 coffees throughout the day and leave it in coffee mode at home. But if you know you're going to be making "a lot of " coffees back to back then steam priority and flush for a little bit every time 👍


----------



## iBear87

Hellsent said:


> Yep! I make about 4 coffees throughout the day and leave it in coffee mode at home. But if you know you're going to be making multiple coffees "back to back" then steam priority and flush for a little bit every time 👍


 Might I ask for how long do you own your Mara? And did you have any issues with it so far? Happy with the build quality too?


----------



## Hellsent

iBear87 said:


> Might I ask for how long do you own your Mara? And did you have any issues with it so far? Happy with the build quality too?


 Since March 2021, so nearly 6 months now. Before I had a Gaggia New Baby 06.

I've no issues just a few points:

I had very high brew pressure (above 10bar) so I changed the OPV so it now does 9bar and it's much better.

The amount of water going into the drip tray is annoying, but as others have mentioned the drip tray re-route is a simple mod to fix this.

I love the build quality! Yes it isn't as good as a commercial machine plumbed in etc, it is still a home espresso machine so some things are a little flimsy (the feet), but no I've not had any issues with the build quality of it. Especially for it's price!


----------



## Bicky

I've had my MaraX for well over a year now and I still love it, for the size and the price I think it's a cracking little machine.

I was thinking the other day however about what I would change if Lelit released a revised version, and the biggest thing I could come up with was that I wish it had 3 different modes. Steam priority, brew priority with steam boost, and a new third mode - brew priority with *no *steam boost (in fact, personally, they can scrap steam priority, I've never used it!).

There are times when I just want an espresso, or I'm pulling back to back shots and I just don't need the boost. Perhaps I'm dialing in a new bean or experimenting with a different style of extraction, it can be an annoyance as you're then against the clock to get your next shot in before the temperature starts going up (yes I can flush the group, but then we're back to guessing games), not to mention a waste of energy. I can't imagine any technical reason why this couldn't be a thing? I tried turning the machine off for a few seconds after pulling a shot the other day, but it still boosted when it came back on!

Anyway, any other long term users have anything they'd like to see in a MaraX Mk2? The OPV redirect mod seems popular, so I guess a solution to that would be on a lot of people's lists. Better feet? I'm struggling to come up with anything else...


----------



## DavecUK

@Bicky i wish I could comment.


----------



## Bicky

DavecUK said:


> @Bicky i wish I could comment.


 @DavecUK Ha don't leave us hanging like that! What about your non-professional, personal opinion? :classic_biggrin:


----------



## DavecUK

@Bicky I gave it 🤣


----------



## robti

Well I have had mine since release day and have turned the pid down to 9 did the mod to move the water from going into the drip tray and left all switches at default. What I would have liked for a basic upgrade was better feet and the pressure gauge being backlit


----------



## Doram

Bicky said:


> Anyway, any other long term users have anything they'd like to see in a MaraX Mk2? The OPV redirect mod seems popular, so I guess a solution to that would be on a lot of people's lists. Better feet? I'm struggling to come up with anything else...


 I think you nailed it. OPV discharge water re-use was the greatest downside for me, but it is such an easy DIY so if Lelit doesn't do it - people can fix it on their own.

Brew mode with no boost - I didn't think about it until I read your post, but it's a brilliant idea! Would be nice to know it's there even when it's not used, and I am sure it would be useful for dialing in and espresso-only sessions/users. Should be super-easy to implement. @DavecUK seems to agree too. 😉

I added flow control to mine, and it's nice to have.

Like you, I just love the machine. It works like clockwork for me: solid, predictable, a pleasure to use all the way - and in such a compact package. I read about other fancier machines all the time, and I never get envy or feel I want something else. Some machines look great, but none are as compact. For my use profile and aspiration, I don't feel I need a dual boiler. I think any deficiencies in the coffee are my fault, not the machine's.

What's wrong with the feet? 🙂


----------



## Bicky

Doram said:


> What's wrong with the feet? 🙂


 They're a bit small? :classic_laugh: To be fair I've not thought about them really since I put felt pads on way back, it was a very small quibble!


----------



## twjacobsen

Hi all, first post - long time lurker!

Yesterday I finally received my MaraX (been waiting for a month because the grinder was out of stock  ), but so far I'm really enjoying it. What a difference this is to our old Sage Barista Express!

Anywho, I love to tinker. While waiting for the machine to arrive, I read everything I could find, and stumbled upon a project where a reed sensor would be attached to the pump, to make a shot timer for the machine.

Meanwhile, I've been wondering - wouldn't it be easier to just connect to the small button that is pushed in by the brew lever?

If this is not possible, I expect to be fitting a zigbee-connected door/window sensor instead of an "oldschool" reed sensor to connect directly to my homeassistatn setup. I'm don't like wires sticking out of my stuff


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@twjacobsen - Welcome. Personally I quite like the clean panel of the MaraX. No timer, no LCDs, just one gauge (which is a dual gauge, mind).

I wouldn't bother, personally. Just keep a watch/clock with a seconds hand (or digital) and just glance at it as soon as you lift the lever.


----------



## twjacobsen

I like that too, I'm not trying to ruin that  I have a spare phone next to it, that could be used for this purpose, but if there's one less thing I'd have to do, I'd be happier, I guess


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@twjacobsen - "Yo Siri! Start timer." 👍🤣

I understand.

Another option is a scale with an auto tare function and a timer. Granted the timer and the weight will start as soon as the first drip of coffee hits the cup, but, if you consider that, say, roughly the first drips come after 10s, all you need to aim for is a shot around 22-25s as far as the scale timer is concerned. 🙂


----------



## Anthony21

hello, I received my MaraX very nice! however I have a noise of air in the pipes when the machine is off, attached the video (turn up the sound), is this normal? I also have a 10sec of steam during warmup in drip tray, is this normal?

thank you


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## MediumRoastSteam

@Anthony21 - both normal. The steam into the drip tray during warm up is the vacuum breaker (the anti-vacuum valve) shutting as the machine reaches 100C. Any steam and condensation is diverted to the drip tray.

the gurgles will happen as there's water from there and from the OPV around the hoses on their way to the drip tray. Air bubbles would move around and the water cools down. I wouldn't worry about it. Great machine! Does it have the OPV mod from the factory? Do you know?

Welcome to the forum.


----------



## Anthony21

Thank you for answers , I'm reassured, I thought it was a leak at the start.

The machine is new , so OPV redirect in drip tray, I saw the mod but why lelit choose to do not redirect in water tank ?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@Anthony21 - I think Lelit will eventually produce the machines as such from the factory. There were some videos around from Lelit insider.


----------



## kjarsheim

Had my Mara X over a year now, absolutely trouble free and my (non hobbyist) wife can walk up and make a totally decent cappa without divine intervention. Paired with my Niche it has dispelled upgraditis for the foreseeable future.

Had a Minore IV previously and although a good machine overall, I believe the Mara form factor, build quality and design to be a lot better.....I'd never even contemplated the feet...it's only a little machine, big feet might perhaps look a bit silly on it? LOL!


----------



## KyNg

After using more than a year, have this issue i remember someone ever had this issue but not sure.. anyone remember? When preheating suddenly the steam bar goes beyond 3 going to 14 also so noisy during that time.. not sure why after that it goes normal again..


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Feels to me that the machine is overheating, big time. Is there steam coming out into the drip tray?


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Feels to me that the machine is overheating, big time. Is there steam coming out into the drip tray?


 The steam gauge winding all the way round into the brew gauge, I'm sure you're right....and can I see steam coming up from the drip tray in that photo?


----------



## KyNg

DavecUK said:


> The steam gauge winding all the way round into the brew gauge, I'm sure you're right....and can I see steam coming up from the drip tray in that photo?


 Ya it's the steaming coming up from drip tray.. but more than usual.. i thought it could get back to normal after few days but it's still like this.. already try to purge from hot wand as well.. its not because of air trap or something right?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@KyNg - Your safety valve has popped most likely!

But the safety valve is only doing its job. I bet you have a scaled up probe, or a faulty probe.

If you look through the posts in this forum (using the search facility) there are a few posts which have the exact same symptoms as yours.


----------



## KyNg

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @KyNg - Your safety valve has popped most likely!
> 
> But the safety valve is only doing its job. I bet you have a scaled up probe, or a faulty probe.
> 
> If you look through the posts in this forum (using the search facility) there are a few posts which have the exact same symptoms as yours.


 Ya found it yesterday posts on march.. but still not quite sure with the solution given.

So yesterday open up the top then i tighten all the cables in it, i happened to bring this machine to our vacation house week ago i think it might be the cause.. this morning the issue is gone.. lol.. i only use pure water plus sodium bicarbonate to 70ppm so its not because of scaling probe.. finger cross the issue is fixed.. thanks yaa


----------



## Merchant-Seaman

Hi @KyNg that was me (and a few others). There was a batch of faulty temp probes in some Mara X units back in November 2020 (almost time to wish my unit a happy birthday!)

On my unit this was happening within a few weeks of me receiving my machine. In addition, once it had warmed up the pump would make a little noise every half hour or so, like it couldn't regulate things on its own. Sent it back to BellaBarista at the time and all they did was chuck in a new temp probe (the one in the top of the boiler).

That completely resolved things for me. No more fear of explosion when warming up, silent and stable when sitting on the counter.

I didn't have to touch it again until a month ago when some water was leaking around that same probe. BB sent me a new one to install myself. Very easy to remove and inspect it, incase you want to check the suggestion of it being scaled up. All you need is a spanner. Otherwise I'd get in touch with the seller and see if they can take a look at it or send you a new temp probe. I'm sure you can buy temp probes from spares websites too, if you want to just do it yourself. That is of course assuming that the probe is the issue, which isn't a guarantee, but your issue looks identical to mine.


----------



## Merchant-Seaman

KyNg said:


> Ya found it yesterday posts on march.. but still not quite sure with the solution given.
> 
> So yesterday open up the top then i tighten all the cables in it, i happened to bring this machine to our vacation house week ago i think it might be the cause.. this morning the issue is gone.. lol.. i only use pure water plus sodium bicarbonate to 70ppm so its not because of scaling probe.. finger cross the issue is fixed.. thanks yaa


 Just to add on to the above, when it happened to me it was very inconsistent. Some mornings it wouldn't even reach 3 bar, some mornings it would go way above. Hopefully yours is fixed but I'd keep an eye on it.


----------



## DavecUK

@KyNg Often the cause of such problems was a bad connection into the gicar box, or in the midpoint connector of the probe.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@KyNg - phew! That was an easy fix. Good sleuthing work. Well done!


----------



## stickyz

Hi all, Either my searching skills are bad or i´m really clueless but I was wondering if anyone here has a grouphead thermometer for the Marax? I have seen some people ask it but didn´t find any responses. if so , which one?


----------



## DavecUK

The coffee sensor kit should work well...that's what I have


----------



## robti

why would i need a group head thermometer if the temperature is controlled ?


----------



## DavecUK

@robti To give you something to play with....


----------



## Koh

Hey guys, I have lurked here a bit from time to time. I currently have a la pavoni which is my first espresso machine of my own. Aquired during lockdown one.. I do love it and have made some great coffee with it, as well as a lot of mediocre coffee too if im honest.

I still mostly wfh, and love a flat white in the morning. The pav is realisticly too much faffing around for that esp when my wife is home, so i have been getting itchy.

That's all meaning to say, the mara x seems like a great machine, the thermal stability sounds very impressive especially in coming from a pav land, and i think it would really streamline my work flow and improve consistency.

I know this crowd will lean a certain way but should I just "get good" with the pav or...

Assuming i were to upgrade; is bella barista the go too in the uk? And do they ever have sales? Or should i just be thankful its available at the regular price?

Cheers for any thoughts, advice.

Koh


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Koh said:


> I know this crowd will lean a certain way but should I just "get good" with the pav or...


 I had a La Pavoni before the Lelit Elizabeth. In fact, I had two. The machines were great&#8230;. For one person. If you need to make more than two coffees, it's a faff. Two coffees is the beginning of the faff, but it's manageable. Saying that, the workflow with the MaraX will be night and day compared. It's a lot easier.

As for sales at BB&#8230; never seen it.

welcome to the forum.


----------



## Koh

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I had a La Pavoni before the Lelit Elizabeth. In fact, I had two. The machines were great&#8230;. For one person. If you need to make more than two coffees, it's a faff. Two coffees is the beginning of the faff, but it's manageable. Saying that, the workflow with the MaraX will be night and day compared. It's a lot easier.
> 
> As for sales at BB&#8230; never seen it.
> 
> welcome to the forum.


 Thanks for the welcome. Yeah I figured that was probably the case re sales. Worth an ask though.

Yeah agreed. I find there's always something with the pav. Some new challenge to solve. That and there are a lot of roasts that I simply can't make work with it. Which is fine enough when your just playing with it on the weekend, but gets old when you want to use it regularly.

Cheers.


----------



## thecatch33

Looks like Lelit has made some modest improvements to the Mara X. Updated logo, 3 IMS baskets now included standard, and most importantly, OPV drain system mod is now standard from the factory. Lelit's official website has also been updated to show the updated machine.

@DavecUK now that the "update" (not calling it a v2) has been released into the wild, is it too much to hope that Lelit also updated the firmware to improve some of the steam inconsistencies in brew priority mode that they have been testing for the past year?


----------



## DavecUK

@thecatch33 I just can't comment on any testing I may/or may not have done and recommendations made, or not made.


----------



## thecatch33

@DavecUK Understood, apologies if I was asking out of line!


----------



## twjacobsen

@DavecUK Is it possible to manually flash new firmware to the machine, in case there are updates released? I'm aware there's no easy way to do it, but - given the firmware was available - it should be possible, right?


----------



## DavecUK

twjacobsen said:


> @DavecUK Is it possible to manually flash new firmware to the machine, in case there are updates released? I'm aware there's no easy way to do it, but - given the firmware was available - it should be possible, right?


 Yes it is, as long as no other hardware changes were made.....but the flash has to be to the Gicar box and is not a process retailers can do. The time taken, and shipping of the box both ways, would probably make the cost similar to purchasing a new box.

Also Lelit would have to make the firmware publicly available....which they have not.


----------



## twjacobsen

That's what I thought as well. That's - IMO - the biggest downside of modern appliances. There's more and more software, but it's not possible to benefit from newer versions of this in older machines.

But then again, when even smartphone manufacturers can't be bothered to update their phones, who's to expect hardware manufacturers to do it


----------



## DavecUK

twjacobsen said:


> That's what I thought as well. That's - IMO - the biggest downside of modern appliances. There's more and more software, but it's not possible to benefit from newer versions of this in older machines.


 Well at least you could buy a new Gicar box with updated programming if you needed to...with a smartphone, and many other modern appliances you're a bit stuffed.

In some ways automatic firmware updates would be great, but with a device like a coffee machine, it could be quite problematic.


----------



## twjacobsen

Considering how many tinkerers there are in the (pro-sumer) coffee world, I guess the ones that care are willing to break open their machine and hook a computer to the box to manually flash any availablef firmware. I know I would love that option, for sure!

Getting a little off-topic though, since this is not specifically for the Mara-X


----------



## Doram

twjacobsen said:


> Considering how many tinkerers there are in the (pro-sumer) coffee world, I guess the ones that care are willing to break open their machine and hook a computer to the box to manually flash any availablef firmware. I know I would love that option, for sure!


 It would depend on what the changes in the firmware are and if they fix anything that you want fixing, wouldn't it? Or would you just want the latest firmware regardless and assume it's better because it's newer?


----------



## DavecUK

Doram said:


> It would depend on what the changes in the firmware are and if they fix anything that you want fixing, doesn't it? Or would you just want the latest firmware regardless and assume it's better because it's newer?


 Like me upgrading to Windows 11 <lol>


----------



## Doram

DavecUK said:


> Like me upgrading to Windows 11 <lol>


 🙂

I also usually want the latest for a computer/phone etc. (though holding off Win 11 for now). However, a coffee machine isn't a phone. It's not connected to the internet or has security vulnerabilities (I hope).

Unlike you Dave, we mortals don't even know if there actually is a new firmware, and if there is - what the changes are. I am guessing Lelit could have tweaked the target temperatures to change steam boost, recovery times and things like that? And I can assume that any such changes will include a different balance of compromises, so will be better in scenario X but maybe less good in scenario Y?

I am obviously just guessing, and perhaps they made significant changes that only improve the machine with no downsides. In this case I would want the newest firmware. But if they made no changes, or made small changes to improve scenarios which are not relevant for me, then I could easily live without the latest firmware if the machine is working as I want it to (which it does).

Semi off-topic: Firmware updates sometimes break things that didn't need fixing. The latest update to my phone's firmware has broken the Bluetooth (which was absolutely fine for me), and now I can't connect the phone to the car. Other people on the internet experienced the same issue. Good luck to us all getting the manufacturer to un-break it.


----------



## Aesch

New to this forum and enjoying my maraX and eureka mignon specialita combo a lot! And all the insights from this forum too! I'm wondering, since lelit updated the internal routing, if the necessary parts would be available after market to do the "mod" with factory supplied parts..does anyone know or have an idea?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Aesch said:


> New to this forum and enjoying my maraX and eureka mignon specialita combo a lot! And all the insights from this forum too! I'm wondering, since lelit updated the internal routing, if the necessary parts would be available after market to do the "mod" with factory supplied parts..does anyone know or have an idea?


 There's a whole thread about this mod with very clean instructions, and how to do the mod using the existing parts which come with the machine.

I doubt Lelit will offer a "kit" as there's no need for it. 👍

welcome to the forum.


----------



## Aesch

MediumRoastSteam said:


> There's a whole thread about this mod with very clean instructions, and how to do the mod using the existing parts which come with the machine.
> 
> I doubt Lelit will offer a "kit" as there's no need for it. 👍
> 
> welcome to the forum.


 Thanks! I read the mod thread but maybe misunderstood it. I thought it mentions several options, among which are steps including the necessity to cut in the tank and to bypass the filter, both of which I don't want to.

Ill go back to it and read it again!

And, for my info : what is the routing that Lelit now uses if anyone knows?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Check this:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55806-mara-x-redirect-opv-discharge-water-from-drip-tray-to-re-use-%E2%80%93-easy-mod-instructions-with-pics/?do=embed&comment=859405&embedComment=859405&embedDo=findComment

And you can see what Doram did at the start of the thread, and then there are other people showing other ways without the need to buy connectors, and just re-use the connectors inside the machine 🙂


----------



## Doram

Aesch said:


> Thanks! I read the mod thread but maybe misunderstood it. I thought it mentions several options, among which are steps including the necessity to cut in the tank and to bypass the filter, both of which I don't want to.
> 
> Ill go back to it and read it again!
> 
> And, for my info : what is the routing that Lelit now uses if anyone knows?


 You can see the three options illustrated in this thread:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/58312-mara-x-opv-re-route-mod-3-alternatives-with-illustrations/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=822961&embedComment=822961&embedDo=findComment#comment-822961

From what I have seen in Lelit insider videos, it seems they are doing option 3 (the one that re-routs the OPV discharge to the pump [not to the water tank] and that uses the same connectors as in the original version). This means that if you have the original version, you can do exactly the same and don't need any new parts.

Basically, there are two relevant connectors in the machine: one is a blue plastic 3-way Y connector, and the other is a brass 4-way X connector. If you switch between the two connectors and re-connect the tubes following the diagram in option 3 in the thread linked above, you will have what seems to be the stock routing in the new version (I am saying this with a grain of salt, because I have not yet seen anyone confirm they bought a Mara X recently and this is what they have, so just assuming this is the case).


----------



## woodbar

Had my machine covers off at the weekend to fit a new temp sensor (and cure a leak from the level sensor!) and I can confirm the OEM, factory fit, is OPV discharge arrangement is as per method 3


----------



## Aesch

woodbar said:


> Had my machine covers off at the weekend to fit a new temp sensor (and cure a leak from the level sensor!) and I can confirm the OEM, factory fit, is OPV discharge arrangement is as per method 3


 Cool, thanks! So this is for the "new" maraX? Or did they start rearranging the internals already prior to the redesign for as far as you know?


----------



## woodbar

Aesch said:


> Cool, thanks! So this is for the "new" maraX? Or did they start rearranging the internals already prior to the redesign for as far as you know?


 Well mine has the red badge so not the "new" one with black legend on the front - that must save them a few bob actually - no stamping of the Lelit raised dimple in the front panel and no red paint - can be done at the same time as the other black legends on the front - so the price should have gone down☺

My machine has a production date of 07/2021 - not sure if the first digits denote week or month.

Safe to assume they have been OEM fitting the OPV mod for a few months at least.


----------



## Aesch

woodbar said:


> Well mine has the red badge so not the "new" one with black legend on the front - that must save them a few bob actually - no stamping of the Lelit raised dimple in the front panel and no red paint - can be done at the same time as the other black legends on the front - so the price should have gone down☺
> 
> My machine has a production date of 07/2021 - not sure if the first digits denote week or month.
> 
> Safe to assume they have been OEM fitting the OPV mod for a few months at least.


 Interesting! Mine is from the same production date so maybe..


----------



## Aesch

woodbar said:


> Well mine has the red badge so not the "new" one with black legend on the front - that must save them a few bob actually - no stamping of the Lelit raised dimple in the front panel and no red paint - can be done at the same time as the other black legends on the front - so the price should have gone down☺
> 
> My machine has a production date of 07/2021 - not sure if the first digits denote week or month.
> 
> Safe to assume they have been OEM fitting the OPV mod for a few months at least.


 Thought of one more question: from reading up in the modding thread the amount of water that still ends up in the drip tray after the mod is ~40ml for every double espresso right? Is that what you're seeing too? (if that's the case I don't have to open up the machine at all). Thanks in advance!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Aesch said:


> Thought of one more question: from reading up in the modding thread the amount of water that still ends up in the drip tray after the mod is ~40ml for every double espresso right? Is that what you're seeing too? (if that's the case I don't have to open up the machine at all). Thanks in advance!


 There are three sources which end up in the drip tray:

- Vacuum breaker: That's very little (5ml maybe, if that?) and only happens once when the machine starts.
- OPV: If the pressure goes above what the expansion valve is set to, water will end up there. It's a constant trickle flow. With the OPV mod, that gets routed back to the inlet of the pump. 
- Exhaust valve: When the lever is lowered and the shot ends, the water inside the E61 chambers get redirected to the bottom of the E61 as the group is depressurised, and end up in the drip tray. From memory based on another E61 machine, that's approx. 35ml-40ml of water.


----------



## robti

First time using hot water for many months and water has a brown tint to it, is this normal ?

Thanks


----------



## Doram

robti said:


> First time using hot water for many months and water has a brown tint to it, is this normal ?


 It's not a new machine, is it? (for new machines I think you need to flush the boiler a couple of times to get rid of anything that might be left in it).

If the machine isn't new, do you refresh the water in the boiler occasionally? (you should, as otherwise you can get scale build up as you draw pure water (steam) and leave minerals behind).

On mine I don't use the water wand to draw water for drinks, but I do use it to flush all the water out every 3 weeks and I have never noticed a brown tint. I would just flush all the water out (maybe a couple of times until the water is clean), and then replace with fresh water occasionally. Fingers crossed this will help, and if not - check further?


----------



## Doram

Aesch said:


> Thought of one more question: from reading up in the modding thread the amount of water that still ends up in the drip tray after the mod is ~40ml for every double espresso right?





MediumRoastSteam said:


> - Exhaust valve: When the lever is lowered and the shot ends, the water inside the E61 chambers get redirected to the bottom of the E61 as the group is depressurised, and end up in the drip tray. From memory based on another E61 machine, that's approx. 35ml-40ml of water.


 I thought 35-40ml is a bit much, so measured it a few times in the last couple of days. On mine I get ~15ml from the exhaust valve. What comes out of the vacuum breaker in negligible.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> On mine I get ~15ml from the exhaust valve.


 Really? Do you decline the flow at the end of the shot by any chance?


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Really? Do you decline the flow at the end of the shot by any chance?


 You got me, lol. (of course I do )


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> You got me, lol. (of course I do )


 Now you know why *you* only get 15ml 🙂


----------



## Aesch

MediumRoastSteam said:


> There are three sources which end up in the drip tray:
> 
> - Vacuum breaker: That's very little (5ml maybe, if that?) and only happens once when the machine starts.
> - OPV: If the pressure goes above what the expansion valve is set to, water will end up there. It's a constant trickle flow. With the OPV mod, that gets routed back to the inlet of the pump.
> - Exhaust valve: When the lever is lowered and the shot ends, the water inside the E61 chambers get redirected to the bottom of the E61 as the group is depressurised, and end up in the drip tray. From memory based on another E61 machine, that's approx. 35ml-40ml of water.


 So I've measured a few times, I find it dumps around the 35ml mark per double shot. I figure this must mean the inside has already been routed the "new" way. Thanks to everyone!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Aesch said:


> I figure this must mean the inside has already been routed the "new" way


 You could open the top of the machine and check if the mod has been done. Will take 5 minutes. 😊


----------



## Aesch

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You could open the top of the machine and check if the mod has been done. Will take 5 minutes. 😊


 Yes I will do this on the next "service stop". The fact it only dumps the expected small amount of water that fits with the modded configuration stops my "I must get this done right now" urge 😉


----------



## Doram

Aesch said:


> So I've measured a few times, I find it dumps around the 35ml mark per double shot. I figure this must mean the inside has already been routed the "new" way.


 If you get 35ml in the tray after a shot then 99.99% you have the mod. You can tell for sure without even opening the top cover: Put the blind basket in the portafilter and fit to the group. Empty the drip tray and take the grid off so you can see better. Lift the lever. When the pump is running, is there constant flow of water into the tray? If the answer is no - congratulations, you have a modded machine.


----------



## Aesch

Doram said:


> If you get 35ml in the tray after a shot then 99.99% you have the mod. You can tell for sure without even opening the top cover: Put the blind basket in the portafilter and fit to the group. Empty the drip tray and take the grid off so you can see better. Lift the lever. When the pump is running, is there constant flow of water into the tray? If the answer is no - congratulations, you have a modded machine.


 And yes, it's a OEM modded machine🎉


----------



## BH471

Does anyone know where I can get the Lelit black walnut upgrade kit and portafilters from?


----------



## stickyz

Pleevus said:


> Has anyone experienced any issues with increased steam pressure from the wand?
> 
> We've had our machine for a couple of months now, the steam wand was great but over the last week the pressure has noticeably ramped right up. After pulling two shots the gauge reads 1.5bar, I'm sure I used to be able to steam at this pressure before without a problem, but it's now just too powerful to steam the milk for our flat whites, the milk becomes too turbulent and I can't get it to chirp.
> 
> The pressure drops back down to 1bar after we've finished drinking.
> 
> I've not changed anything in our process but it's quite a noticeable change.


 I Just encountered this a few days ago and got really frustrated , thought something has changed in the different settings while cleaning but nothing. both buttons are on "O" behind the tray and on the right , and the steam is just too high .
@Pleevus how did you solve it ? 
did anyone else encountered it and found a solution maybe?

In short, steam is way too strong can't foam anything it feels like a lot of water is going out of it too but I am not sure since only now i noticed it.


----------



## stickyz

Can't edit last post , video of the steaming -


----------



## Evergreen88

It might be scale interfering with the temp reading.


----------



## JP60606

Has any one had their hot water tap drip when the valve is shut?

I did a few backflushes earlier (no chemicals) and thought to flush a bit of water through the hot tap as I never use it and when I shut it, it was dripping non stop. I managed to stop it by draining a load of water from it with the machine off then switching it back on, which refilled the boiler with a load of cold water. It seems to be ok now, but I'm waiting for the machine to cool down properly before I switch it back on later and let it get up to temperature and see if it still does it.

Not sure if it's meant to do this by design or if it was to do with opening the hot tap just after back flushing. The water that came from the tap was almost steam it was such high pressure.


----------



## woodbar

Have not experienced that - hot tap usually drips once just after I move the cup or jug out of the way but that's it.

I expect it was just a bit of scale or manufacturing residue that got stuck in the valve and you have now cleared it by the drain and refill. The back flushing should not affect the hot water tap in any way as they are on separate water circuits within the machine. Might be wise to unscrew the diffuser at the end of the arm - the cylindrical bit NOT the tapered item - and see if you have any foreign matter inside.

If you take water out too quickly you will get it mixed with steam as although the hot water feed point is taken from the bottom of the boiler once the flow from the tap gets to a certain point then some steam (from inside the top of the boiler) breaks through the water flow and don't forget the water is already at or above 100 deg C anyway other wise you would not generate steam!

The only other thing you need to be careful of - you say you don't use hot water but do you regularly use steam? If so then you should be flushing the boiler every now and again as you are boiling off pure water as steam and leaving any minerals and dissolved solids from the water inside the boiler which over time will increase and at the very least would not be palatable to drink and may form deposits which might then block your hot water tap!

Obviously this all depends on what water you fill with and how often you use steam/water etc!

I only use the hot water tap for warming cups etc. as although we mainly drink what I call halfway Americano I prefer to top up the espresso with hot water from the Osmio Zero or even the kettle. Should be fresher and less tainted than from the service boiler of the Mara X where it might have been sitting in there for weeks.


----------



## JP60606

woodbar said:


> Have not experienced that - hot tap usually drips once just after I move the cup or jug out of the way but that's it.
> 
> I expect it was just a bit of scale or manufacturing residue that got stuck in the valve and you have now cleared it by the drain and refill. The back flushing should not affect the hot water tap in any way as they are on separate water circuits within the machine. Might be wise to unscrew the diffuser at the end of the arm - the cylindrical bit NOT the tapered item - and see if you have any foreign matter inside.
> 
> If you take water out too quickly you will get it mixed with steam as although the hot water feed point is taken from the bottom of the boiler once the flow from the tap gets to a certain point then some steam (from inside the top of the boiler) breaks through the water flow and don't forget the water is already at or above 100 deg C anyway other wise you would not generate steam!
> 
> The only other thing you need to be careful of - you say you don't use hot water but do you regularly use steam? If so then you should be flushing the boiler every now and again as you are boiling off pure water as steam and leaving any minerals and dissolved solids from the water inside the boiler which over time will increase and at the very least would not be palatable to drink and may form deposits which might then block your hot water tap!
> 
> Obviously this all depends on what water you fill with and how often you use steam/water etc!
> 
> I only use the hot water tap for warming cups etc. as although we mainly drink what I call halfway Americano I prefer to top up the espresso with hot water from the Osmio Zero or even the kettle. Should be fresher and less tainted than from the service boiler of the Mara X where it might have been sitting in there for weeks.


 Hasn't done it again since, so have to assume something got stuck in there. The machine is only a week old so shouldn't be scale but could well be manufacturing residue.

Yes I steam most morning drinks, how often should I be flushing the boiler? I use the Tesco Ashbeck water at the moment.


----------



## woodbar

JP60606 said:


> Yes I steam most morning drinks, how often should I be flushing the boiler? I use the Tesco Ashbeck water at the moment.


 Well that question is difficult to answer!

I think Ashbeck water is one of the better ones (from memory) but I would think once a month flush or even every 2 weeks would do no harm and could be beneficial.

So just do what you did the other day, switch off, maybe let it cool for 10 minutes, and drain the boiler completely from the hot tap. Might be an idea to remove the diffuser from the bottom of the water spout just in case any more residue is lurking about!

Obviously the HX part with the water for brewing the shot holds a comparatively small volume of water that is constantly replenished, when you make a shot, so you don't need to worry about that one.


----------



## MWJB

woodbar said:


> I think Ashbeck water is one of the better ones (from memory)


 Ashbeck has never been identified as good machine/boiler water.


----------



## woodbar

MWJB said:


> Ashbeck has never been identified as good machine/boiler water.


 Thank you for your correction albeit rather cryptic? I have never been identified as a Russian spy, but I could be!

I thought I had read on this forum and elsewhere that Ashbeck was often used and suitable - maybe I was having a senior moment!

Perhaps you might like to recommend something suitable to the OP who seems to be a new member with a new machine.


----------



## cuprajake

no it has been recommended as i picked that up from here too, weirdly so not a senior moment


----------



## MWJB

woodbar said:


> Thank you for your correction albeit rather cryptic? I have never been identified as a Russian spy, but I could be!
> 
> I thought I had read on this forum and elsewhere that Ashbeck was often used and suitable - maybe I was having a senior moment!
> 
> Perhaps you might like to recommend something suitable to the OP who seems to be a new member with a new machine.


 There have been various papers, books and articles looking into what makes good, low scaling & non-corrosive boiler water and Ashbeck is clearly low in pH and alkalinity (erring on corrosive). I didn't say people have never used it, for whatever reason that they think they ought to, its use is just not backed up in a technical sense.

Waitrose Lockhills would be my recommendation, or if not easy to source, Volvic. These are both recommendations I have made many, many times.


----------



## woodbar

MWJB said:


> There have been various papers, books and articles looking into what makes good, low scaling & non-corrosive boiler water


 Yes, that is part of the problem - there are so many different views and recommendations.

I stick to my mix of RO + Filtered tap water which gives me a reasonable pH result and 80 - 100 TDS, plus the flavour of the coffee is good. I found the coffee just using the lightly re-mineralised water from the Osmio Zero just too acidic - probably partly because I like fruity "acidic" coffees so the combination was just too much!

At least you have now given the OP a further choice of other bottled waters to try - watch this space for any results.


----------



## MWJB

woodbar said:


> Yes, that is part of the problem - there are so many different views and recommendations.
> 
> At least you have now given the OP a further choice of other bottled waters to try - watch this space for any results.


 It's not so much of a problem because all the research broadly concurs (alkalinity/KH of 40-60mg/l, varying limits on hardness).


----------



## robti

Looking for help on how to do a boiler flush on the X ?

Thanks


----------



## woodbar

Well, that is quite easy.

Heat machine up to temperature - switch it off - maybe let it cool for 5 minutes - then using a suitably large jug open the hot water valve and leave it open until you get no more water out - boiler is now empty. Refill tank and turn back on to fill the boiler.

I usually remove the water outlet tip first just in case there is any residue in the bottom of the boiler.

Obviously the HX tube in the boiler is constantly replenished as you pull shots.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

woodbar said:


> maybe let it cool for 5 minutes


 Do not let it cool. You want the temperature (and the pressure) inside the boiler to be as high as possible, so all the water (or as much as it can) comes out. So, with the MaraX, turn the machine off at the peak of the wam up cycle.


----------



## robti

Well thanks to you both I came back on to alter my post as I thought I had worded it wrong but that's exactly what I wanted, to clean out the hot water tank. Many thanks


----------



## woodbar

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Do not let it cool.


 Well, there you are, an alternative suggestion from, presumably, a seasoned Mara X user.

Whichever method you adopt I meant to add, on my original post, do not be too aggressive with the outflow of water - regulate it with the tap - try not to let too much steam out as this what is actually pushing the water out of the bottom of the boiler and up to the HW tap so you won't get absolutely all of the water out anyway.

I think you mentioned previously that you were getting discoloured water? If so, you may want to flush a couple of times to make sure!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

woodbar said:


> presumably, a seasoned Mara X user


 I don't have a MaraX. 🙂 - but the principle is the same. 👍


----------



## robti

Quite a few pages to read but what do owners use to descale/clean their Mara x I was going to use puly caff but the Lelit video said not to use powder. I know I did it last year but can't remember what I used ?

Thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

robti said:


> Quite a few pages to read but what do owners use to descale/clean their Mara x I was going to use puly caff but the Lelit video said not to use powder. I know I did it last year but can't remember what I used ?
> 
> Thanks


 PulyCaf is for backflushing (i.e.: cleaning the group). To descale the machine, you use Citric acid at 50g per litre. Don't forget to lube the cam afterwards!

Find out more at: https://*********************.com


----------



## robti

And that's what the container of citric acid on the shelf is for lol


----------



## rxmnt

Does anyone know if I the tube in the water tank is really necessary when not using the in-tank filter? Mine looks a little gunk-y, and while I could possibly clean it, just leaving it out seems like the easier option


----------



## woodbar

rxmnt said:


> Does anyone know if I the tube in the water tank is really necessary when not using the in-tank filter?


 No, it is not necessary apart from the fact that it provides for the little strainer on the water pick up.

So if you are sure your water you are filling with is always devoid of particles then yes confine the tube to the "useless paraphernalia" drawer of coffee bits and pieces! I assume everyone has one of those?😁

Of course it just might be that if it is looking a "a little gunk-y" then maybe you are not washing/sterilising the water tank often enough?


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## rxmnt

woodbar said:


> No, it is not necessary apart from the fact that it provides for the little strainer on the water pick up.
> 
> So if you are sure your water you are filling with is always devoid of particles then yes confine the tube to the "useless paraphernalia" drawer of coffee bits and pieces! I assume everyone has one of those?😁
> 
> Of course it just might be that if it is looking a "a little gunk-y" then maybe you are not washing/sterilising the water tank often enough?


 Thanks for the help. Yes, I probably am not. Is there any procedure you could recommend, or just basic cleaning with hot water and soap? I honestly feel a little stupid, I keep the machine very clean otherwise, regularly flush with puly caff and so on, but I basically completely forgot about the water tank - this is the first time I've looked at it since about a year.


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## woodbar

I probably don't clean mine as often as I should!

Lots of people seem to recommend Miltons (either tablet or liquid) but it seems to want you to make a 5 litre solution on the bottle I have - but I can use that amount to do the Mara X tank and the Osmio Zero tank at the same time.

Quite often I do just use some warm water with a small amount of washing up liquid and give it a good brush round in all the corners. Don't use an apple or lemon smell variety though - just plain old original - then give it a good rinse with plain water. It is easier to clean if you take out the filter tubing anyway - clean that separately if you intend to refit it.


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## JP60606

Adjusted the OPV today to drop the pressure to 9 bar on the gauge. Quite surprised at the change in taste of the espresso now, acidity right down and a really well balanced shot. Very happy. Extremely easy to do and nice to see the internals of the machine.

Also upgraded the shower screen to an IMS competition and a Cafelat gasket.


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## woodbar

JP60606 said:


> Also upgraded the shower screen to an IMS competition and a Cafelat gasket


 Which gasket did you fit - red or blue? The OEM gasket was horrible, far too hard with absolutely no feedback as to how tight you had the portafilter inserted - I got the thinner 8mm red one, although the spec is for an 8.5mm (blue), and it works absolutely perfectly.

Interested in your comments on taste with the lower OPV setting - mine was set at 10.5bar and I tried 9 then backup to 10 and I can't say I noticed too much difference? Maybe because I have been concentrating recently on the bottomless portafilter combined with a flow control device! Certainly has improved my distribution and tamping skills being able to see what is coming out of the bottom of the basket!

Any perceived improvements with the IMS screen?


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## JP60606

woodbar said:


> Which gasket did you fit - red or blue? The OEM gasket was horrible, far too hard with absolutely no feedback as to how tight you had the portafilter inserted - I got the thinner 8mm red one, although the spec is for an 8.5mm (blue), and it works absolutely perfectly.
> 
> Interested in your comments on taste with the lower OPV setting - mine was set at 10.5bar and I tried 9 then backup to 10 and I can't say I noticed too much difference? Maybe because I have been concentrating recently on the bottomless portafilter combined with a flow control device! Certainly has improved my distribution and tamping skills being able to see what is coming out of the bottom of the basket!
> 
> Any perceived improvements with the IMS screen?


 I went with the blue, only because the original was 8.5mm, but there was a lot more give with that one. It was quite hard to get the portafilter in initially with the blue one and the handle now locks at 7 o'clock as opposed to 5 o'clock like it did previously. (Both with the Lelit spouted PF and the Lelit bottomless.)

Yeah I'm not using flow control as I don't have it. Agree with the bottomless portafilter, being able to see the shot makes a lot of difference. Interestingly, my wife and I both had covid over New Years so couldn't taste or smell a thing for a couple of weeks and I needed to dial in a new bag of beans. I had to go 100% visually with it and when our taste restored, the shots tasted excellent!

Can't say I've noticed any difference yet with the new shower screen, other than it being a lot easier to clean. I didn't really have any channeling so can't comment on whether it improves that, but I believe it does. I got it just because I like upgrading things and they are cheap 😂


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## woodbar

JP60606 said:


> I got it just because I like upgrading things and they are cheap 😂


 Yes, upgrade-itis, there is a lot of it about! I suffer with it quite frequently!

Sorry to hear about the Covid episode - hopefully you are both fully recovered? The "plan" from our illustrious leaders now seems to be "just let it run its course" so it probably means that everyone will succumb sooner or later🤔 My left arm is like a pin cushion - 3 Covid jabs plus 1 Flu jab (my first ever).

Interested to note you say the new shower screen is easier to clean - do you mean the top side, lower side or in general? Is it the nano-coated variety (or whatever they call it)?

I hope your machine is being more reliable than mine as in less than 4 months of ownership I have had 2 faulty temperature sensors and a leak from the level sensor!


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## JP60606

woodbar said:


> Yes, upgrade-itis, there is a lot of it about! I suffer with it quite frequently!
> 
> Sorry to hear about the Covid episode - hopefully you are both fully recovered? The "plan" from our illustrious leaders now seems to be "just let it run its course" so it probably means that everyone will succumb sooner or later🤔 My left arm is like a pin cushion - 3 Covid jabs plus 1 Flu jab (my first ever).
> 
> Interested to note you say the new shower screen is easier to clean - do you mean the top side, lower side or in general? Is it the nano-coated variety (or whatever they call it)?
> 
> I hope your machine is being more reliable than mine as in less than 4 months of ownership I have had 2 faulty temperature sensors and a leak from the level sensor!


 Yes all good now 👍🏼

The shower screen wipes clean after a shot, I think because it's practically smooth/smaller holes in mesh so you don't end up pushing anything back through it. It's the normal non-nanotec coated one - I've heard the coating can come off, especially if you backflush with chemicals every so often.

It has been as good as gold so far, only had it a couple of months so time will tell but have read more good than bad about Lelit and how BB handle warranty with these machines so not too worried.


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## woodbar

JP60606 said:


> The shower screen wipes clean after a shot


 You've got me at it now - just ordered the E&B Lab E61 200 RNT - reviews some excellent, some not so good - so we will see.

I know it has the nano coating - I will do the Puly backflush with the old screen just in case!


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## Mannion

Hi all. I've started having significant water leakage fom my Mara X when pulling shots and this is even occuring when backflushing with a closed basket. Do you know what this is likely to be caused by?


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## woodbar

Where is the water appearing?

Have you removed the casing to have a look?


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