# My EK43s



## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

As some of you may have seen I picked up an as-new condition white EK43s from @gman147 in late May. I managed to resist for approximately 3 hours before getting in the car and taking my little-one on a roadtrip to Cheltenham to pick her up.

As ever, it was great to meet a fellow forum member in person and have the usual hectic and excitable coffee chat about everything from machines, to grinders, to the recent forum upgrade! After about an hour chatting, we headed back to Bristol late afternoon, ready for some far-too-late-in-the-day espresso shots to run her in.

I didn't want to note down my comments until I had time to reflect on this acquisition, which has been my end-game grinder for a few years now.

Noise

I don't see this as a problem. She certainly has pervasive back hum when idling. Adding the beans gives the familiar noise level that you get in every third wave coffee shop these days, but my wife hasn't complained.

Weight and size

It is beyond heavy. It looks hefty, but this is nothing compared to the reality. Made sure you have a strong set of kitchen cupboards!

In "short", size really isn't too bad. It's bigger than my Ceado, but is relatively attractive in white and has wife approval. I quite like it, but then I have been in love with the EK since first understanding what they do, so this is possible clouding my judgement!

[IMG alt="IMG_9045.thumb.jpg.1850b3d3b346b4995acfa43bde551e79.jpg" data-fileid="30196"]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk//coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_06/IMG_9045.thumb.jpg.1850b3d3b346b4995acfa43bde551e79.jpg[/IMG]

Cable length

Really long to give flexibility of placement, but I recently realised you can feed excess cable back into the base to avoid a coiling snake across the worktop.

Weigh-in-weigh-out

I have to admit a lot of head scratching for the first few days - this thing is supposed to be almost zero retention, yet I seem to be losing 0.5-1g on every dose?!

I was using RDT with a spoon, really thwacking the thwacker (as it were), yet every time grounds out =/= beans in.

Then one morning I realised the anomaly: I have one metal cup to feed beans in, and a separate one to catch the grounds out. It transpires that the grounds-out cup weighs 0.9g less than the beans-in cup - there we go - problem solved!

Thereafter a slight change in workflow to ensure I now weigh-in beans using the grounds-out cup, before transferring to the beans-in cup before RDT etc.

Retention is now predictably low. Invariably +/- 0.2g.

I am really enjoying the weigh-in-weigh-out process, allowing for tiny grind tweaks between shots. My wife knows the dial in at "8-9" on the scale for the Sowden and is (begrudgingly) getting the hang of weighing in.

Fluffiness of grounds

I formerly dosed 15.5g to 15.8g into my 15g VST using my Ceado e37s, I can only fit 14g into the 15g VST using the EK. This is with the same beans, from the same batch, and I have rechecked this.

Before every tamp, I give a couple of vertical settling taps then use my homemade patent-pending scraping tool, so I know that the basket is filled to the same level with each grinder. More than c. 14g dosed in the VST from the EK leads to overfilling. This is evidenced by shower screen indentations on the used puck, so I can't ignore the facts.

I am putting this down to the various particle size analyses on the EK indicating it produces a higher proportion of larger particles, so less settling and compacting. Welcome thoughts on this point though, and whether anyone else has noticed the same?

Tamping

The big surprise is that my Torr Goldfinger Trap Convex no longer works. I am getting huge problems with side-channelling in the basket.

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As you can see from the above photos, this is a problem and, frankly, is a bit demoralising when you see channelling start halfway through a shot.

I have moved to using a lower PI pressure of 1.25 bar, which has helped, but not solved the problem.

There are two problems to overcome: in some cases you can see where the puck pulls away from the basket, in others you can see a "halo" forming around the edge, presumably where the grounds have been tamped less (the tamper base rim has a radius, and I am now seeing that this should be a sharp-edge) and this has allowed them to expand further. In some cases there is evidence of contact with the shower screen, so this may also cause the channeling.

I need to get my head around this issue and am currently investigating tamper options.

Again, I would be interested to hear if others found this same issue when moving to the EK?


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

.....now wishing I had titled this thread "My EKsperiences...."


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Great write up Rob, would be interested to hear your observations in the cup.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

igm45 said:


> Great write up Rob, would be interested to hear your observations in the cup.


Well I did recently have the opportunity for a very interesting side by side comparison with another forum member....!!

I have read Boots repeatedly stating that nothing tastes like an EK shot. I have read about weak body and sweetness, I sort of knew what to expect, but had not appreciated some of the reasons behind these opinions.

Firstly, I tried with some surprisingly palatable medium-roast Brazilian beans that were prepared as a sample for a boutique coffee shop I know. I was given a couple of kilos to try. On my Ceado, these were surprisingly nice at 1:2.5 in 45s a decent flavour balance and quite tasty, if a little "flat". Not my usual preference, but certainly better than any decent-size chain shop offering.

On the EK, using the same recipe, these beans were almost unplayable. The concentration of flavour was something else. You can immediately taste the increased EY with this grinder and, at lower ratios, you are almost chewing your way through the shots.

For me, this excessive flavour concentration was the reason to reduce the dose-in and pull longer shots. I am now around 14g in and 45-46g out on a spring lever. (I am probably also down at 35s ATM but this is partially due to the side channeling issue I mention above.) The higher ratio dilutes the excessive flavours, adds sweetness.

I found it entirely possible to pull a fairly thick and gloopy shot on the EK; it just tasted awful.

I am now on a fairly unusual high-altitude acidic Colombian from Triple Co (shameless plug - Jo's coffees are superb - please try them).

We compared the e37s and EK back to back, at 1:3 ratio in about 45s. The difference in flavour was quite marked.

The e37s really does make a spectacular espresso. It is very easy to dial in on the flavours you want. The shot has great body. I loved everything about it, except it can't filter grinding well at all (IMO).

The EK was different and definitely added clarity to the individual flavours. This brings its own unforeseen challenges - the dosing, distribution and quality of extraction needs to be bang on, otherwise your espresso will emphasise one flavour at the expense of the others, resulting in a less than balanced espresso and, frankly, a poorer drink than would be produced on the Ceado. The EK is much more frustrating in use and highlights areas where your skills or kit are lacking.

When you get everything right though, my does this grinder reward in the cup!

The Colombian tastes superb on both grinders, and a bit of me hankers after how forgiving the Ceado was to use, but the espresso thru to filter / brewed capability of the EK is a fantastic addition to my coffee repertoire and well worth the money....but then it should be, when a good used EK costs c. 4 times the price of a similar quality e37s!!


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## Bainbridge (Feb 4, 2012)

So are you keeping the Ceado?


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Bainbridge said:


> So are you keeping the Ceado?


No, sold to pour the money into this. 
The EK has to be my "do everything" grinder, otherwise wife would kill me.


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## Planter (Apr 12, 2017)

Good write up Rob. Always nice to read a review in basic terms. Always loved the EK.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

rob177palmer said:


> I loved everything about it, except it can't filter grinding well at all (IMO).
> 
> Can you elaborate?


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

He's talking about the e37s...


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

I found the particle size range to be huge at a coarser grind.Loads of fines amongst the boulders.

You've had one - do you not agree?

More importantly was the fact that, to move from espresso to filter, you need to take the top off, unscrew the adjustment lever, reattach, unwind one wind, unscrew, re-attach, unwind a second wind and you are roughly in the range.

Not really workable in my view.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Get a flat tamper


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Get a flat tamper


I know you are right. I just didn't expect to have to spend 10% of purchase price on a new tamper when I thought I had that corner of my setup sorted 

Ah well, I need to start a thread on recent tamper innovations. 
From what I see, there are a few different new and approaches to base designs - Barista Hustle, Pullman, St Anthony - need to see current consensus on results.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

rob177palmer said:


> I know you are right. I just didn't expect to have to spend 10% of purchase price on a new tamper when I thought I had that corner of my setup sorted
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 How much? You can get good flat tampers for under a ton. Perhaps just get a base

Don't cover complicate it.

Flat base 54.4 or above .


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## Planter (Apr 12, 2017)

rob177palmer said:


> I know you are right. I just didn't expect to have to spend 10% of purchase price on a new tamper when I thought I had that corner of my setup sorted
> 
> Ah well, I need to start a thread on recent tamper innovations.
> From what I see, there are a few different new and approaches to base designs - Barista Hustle, Pullman, St Anthony - need to see current consensus on results.


They are expensive but I still have pullman big step and chisel for sale.

Would never have decided to sell. But got a decent deal on a puqpress. Am open to offers.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Planter said:


> They are expensive but I still have pullman big step and chisel for sale.
> 
> Would never have decided to sell. But got a decent deal on a puqpress. Am open to offers.


TBH i have been repeatedly looking at your thread but I couldn't decide whether the adjustment features were worth it to me. I can see why they add to the cost, but I wasn't sure I valued that enough, I guess.

I will ponder.

I love the handle on the chisel tho!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

rob177palmer said:


> I found the particle size range to be huge at a coarser grind.Loads of fines amongst the boulders.
> 
> You've had one - do you not agree?
> 
> ...


 Agree - E37s isn't suited for brewed coffee whereas the EK is in a league of its own.


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## Planter (Apr 12, 2017)

rob177palmer said:


> TBH i have been repeatedly looking at your thread but I couldn't decide whether the adjustment features were worth it to me. I can see why they add to the cost, but I wasn't sure I valued that enough, I guess.
> 
> I will ponder.
> 
> I love the handle on the chisel tho!


Yep. I totally get where you're coming from. They are expensive. There is no denying that. Do that add anything - I don't really know. But they do look better than pretty much anything else that I've used or seen. Both woods are amazing. The checker is awesome though.

I'm in no rush. Hence why I haven't revived the thread. Have a think and we can go from there.


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## Dunk (Mar 26, 2015)

Planter said:


> Yep. I totally get where you're coming from. They are expensive. There is no denying that. Do that add anything - I don't really know. But they do look better than pretty much anything else that I've used or seen. Both woods are amazing. The checker is awesome though.
> 
> I'm in no rush. Hence why I haven't revived the thread. Have a think and we can go from there.


 sorry to jump in how much would you want for the big step? any more details?


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## Dunk (Mar 26, 2015)

Also this sounds very similar to my journey so far after switching from an E37s to EK43.

At first i could not get a decent shot. After a lot of playing i seem to be finding the sweet spot around 19g in 50g out around 35-40s. I have also found it really depends how well developed the roast is. For example i could not get any good flavours out fo five elephant beans. They tasted ok for sure but nothing special, it think they might just be too light for EK style shots.


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## Planter (Apr 12, 2017)

Dunk said:


> sorry to jump in how much would you want for the big step? any more details?


No need to apologise. They are for sale to anyone. I've tagged you into a link for them.

Cheers.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Dunk said:


> sorry to jump in how much would you want for the big step? any more details?


Check the for sale thread


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

I need to sort the channelling. That is the challenge. It is affecting 50% of shots right now; none are ruined and all taste astonishingly good considering, but I know I am missing the mark.

Tamper it is.

Then to finish off aligning burrs (static done, moving to do) so intrigued what that will bring. Suspect very minor improvement but then I will know it is perfect as perfect can be


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

rob177palmer said:


> I need to sort the channelling. That is the challenge. It is affecting 50% of shots right now; none are ruined and all taste astonishingly good considering, but I know I am missing the mark.
> 
> Tamper it is.
> 
> Then to finish off aligning burrs (static done, moving to do) so intrigued what that will bring. Suspect very minor improvement but then I will know it is perfect as perfect can be


 I'd not overly worry


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

I wonder if part of the channeling might be from the lower dose. Did you change basket or keep same one?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jlarkin said:


> I wonder if part of the channeling might be from the lower dose. Did you change basket or keep same one?


 Its such a fine grind that you get micro channeling across the basket which is why the aeropress filter method works.its stops the basket getting clogged up .


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Welcome to the frustration!

Some time later (weeks, months?) you'll be pulling the best shots you ever tasted. Mark my words.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Its such a fine grind that you get micro channeling across the basket which is why the aeropress filter method works.its stops the basket getting clogged up .


The photos on the first post look like puck is not meeting the side of the basket. Didn't seem quite the same as micro channeling to me?

Rob, have you tried locking in more than 14g with a penny on top? If that's pushed in before pulling the shot then its too much but if not then it's probably OK. Not sure marks after is a problem.

Also wondering about distribution. If you should try getting it more evenly in the basket or shaking up the grounds in the cup you grind into etc


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

[url https://youtu.be/mcqdV5cM1NY]

View attachment 30240


View attachment 30241


View attachment 30242


Thought I would video so covers off my distribution also.

14.2(I think?!) in and slight indentation from the 10p. Very tasty shot but side channelling still evident and you can see marks from shower screen.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Tapatalk / forum bugs in full sway this morning then!!


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## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

I know it's pretty basic, but tamper pull out was a bit too quick. I always worry I'll suk the puck up a bit by doing that leading to side channeling. 
Also, again, perhaps amplified in sound by the video, but locking portafilter in sounded like it went in with a jolt, again maybe encouraging side channeling. 
I hope the tamper change solves it! Live your setup


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

christos_geo said:


> I know it's pretty basic, but tamper pull out was a bit too quick. I always worry I'll suk the puck up a bit by doing that leading to side channeling.
> Also, again, perhaps amplified in sound by the video, but locking portafilter in sounded like it went in with a jolt, again maybe encouraging side channeling.
> I hope the tamper change solves it! Live your setup


Thanks Christos - the PF does lock with a bit of a jolt now you mention. Will pay attention to that.

The next one was better and less evident channelling but still there a little.





















As everyone says - new tamper time!!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Recommend getting a 58.5mm flat tamper - especially if you are using VST baskets - Pergatamp works perfectly with VSTs as its design allows you to very accurately ensure the puck is perpendicular to the basket wall.

From much experimentation with barista technique, after stirring the grinds, only tap once - reasonably firmly. Have found tapping lightly a couple of times seems to increase likelihood of channeling.

Talking of which, channeling on my L R always , when it happens, occurs at 10 o' clock at the very edge of the puck. Some beans are more prone - possibly because they are being ground uber fine due to age or other reasons.

The lever mantra of 'grind fine/tamp light' means you have to be pretty meticulous with barista technique. VST baskets only add to that but are worth the added pain.

Finally, and again with much dose experimentation on my EKS, I never over dose with VSTs - my stock go to is an 18grm which I dose at 17.5grm - any more grinds produces a shower screen imprint and inferior extraction.

As you have found, don't bother with ristrettos - EK isn't best suited especially with lighter roasts - you want to pull longer to allow the sugars do their job of taming the acidic notes. That way you can enjoy lemon/lime/grapefruit notes without any mouth puckering.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Can I ask what grind setting you're on for these 14g doses? And is the grinder accurately 'zero'ed' ? (i.e. is 0 on the dial very close to burrs touching, do you know?)


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

fluffles said:


> Can I ask what grind setting you're on for these 14g doses? And is the grinder accurately 'zero'ed' ? (i.e. is 0 on the dial very close to burrs touching, do you know?)


 Burrs tightly zeroed. Grind setting is invariably around 1.5 plus or minus 0.5. Don't dose at 14grm - dose 17.5grm in 18grm VST.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Burrs tightly zeroed. Grind setting is invariably around 1.5 plus or minus 0.5. Don't dose at 14grm - dose 17.5grm in 18grm VST.


 Thanks, but my question was for @rob177palmer


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

fluffles said:


> Thanks, but my question was for @rob177palmer


Haha. I'm here still!

I'm halfway thru the burr alignment process.

Before I started, was grinding between 0.75 and 1.5. Burrs chirping a little at 0

Turns out static burr was pretty well aligned (within roughly 5 microns).

I have shimmed a little so now within 2 microns or so (IIRC. Video coming soon....). Screw back together and suddenly the burrs chirping at 0.5!!? Weird.

So, I have adjust the zero slightly so no chirping at zero (temporary fix really as I will be aligning the moving burr this weekend). Now my espresso setting is 0.25-0.5 on the same beans.

So I have "lost" 0.5 of grinding ability through improving the alignment of the static burr.

Does that sound right?

I suppose I have added a shim, thereby bringing the static burr closer to the moving burr?


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

http://






Rubbish video but was really hard to film properly whilst spinning in a circle. However, was within 2-2.5 microns, which seems good enough to me!


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## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

It actually looks as though it's ranging from +2 to -2 from what I can see on video. Round second 16 it's at the +2 and round second 37 you're at -2 which I assume is the opposite side. Don't know how tight you have to be with alignment, finicky work!


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

christos_geo said:


> It actually looks as though it's ranging from +2 to -2 from what I can see on video. Round second 16 it's at the +2 and round second 37 you're at -2 which I assume is the opposite side. Don't know how tight you have to be with alignment, finicky work!


17 seconds 








37 seconds








I know what you mean - who know if this is good enough....I got bored


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

you're grinding coffee, not making a jet engine


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

fluffles said:


> Thanks, but my question was for @rob177palmer


 Hilarious - lost in translation


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

@rob177palmer

When setting up - need to make sure the block which slides on to the slot in the shaft is fully seated to ensure no false readings. +2 µm to -2 µm is seems excessive. For what it's worth - mine is >1 µm

With EKS running Mk II coffee burrs, you should be around 1.5 (+/- 0..5) on dial for espresso using lighter roasted beans.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

The Systemic Kid said:


> @rob177palmer
> When setting up - need to make sure the block which slides on to the slot in the shaft is fully seated to ensure no false readings. +2 µm to -2 µm is seems excessive. For what it's worth - mine is >1 µm
> With EKS running Mk II coffee burrs, you should be around 1.5 (+/- 0..5) on dial for espresso using lighter roasted beans.


Bugger. So I need to go back and try harder.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

The Systemic Kid said:


> @rob177palmer
> When setting up - need to make sure the block which slides on to the slot in the shaft is fully seated to ensure no false readings. +2 µm to -2 µm is seems excessive. For what it's worth - mine is >1 µm
> With EKS running Mk II coffee burrs, you should be around 1.5 (+/- 0..5) on dial for espresso using lighter roasted beans.


Did you sand or shim?


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

The reason I asked about grind setting is that 14g is a very low dose to be using with full whack pressure from the lever machine. Personally I would try upping the dose which would allow you to grind coarser, as this may be causing channeling. In my experience you can get away with smaller doses only if you can run at lower pressure, which you can't do with a lever.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

rob177palmer said:


> Did you sand or shim?


 Bit personal - mind your own business?

I've checked alignment on five EKs to date - none needed shimming or sanding. That said, one owner had spent half a lifetime shimming his and done a very respectable job to bring alignment down to a > 1 µm. Were I to do it, would go for sanding - too much faff taking burrs out, shimming, checking, taking burrs out again...and again. On another EK, owner thought alignment was out as he was on zero on adjustment dial and still getting spurters so assumed it was an alignment problem. Having run the alignment check - run out was no more that 1 - 1.5 µm max.

When zeroing burrs I use @Spencermethod of locking the burrs quite tightly and leaving them for several minutes - obviously with power disconnected for safety. Then back off the rotating burr, switch on and zero the burrs. Mahlkonig recommend backing off no more than 10 degrees which is naff all. Doing this on above EK, resulted in it being able to produce pukka espresso for lighter roasts at 1.0 - 2.0 on dial.

Would seem, as a rough rule of thumb, for EKs and especially EKSs - you should be able to grind lighter roasts at 1.0 - 2.0 on dial with the caveat that the burrs are fully seasoned. If your burrs are well seasoned and you are able to use these settings for lighter roasts and the coffee tastes good, i.e., not under or over extracted when pulling 1:2 - 1:3, I wouldn't put yourself to the trouble of sanding. As the saying goes, 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Do you have a link to Spencer's method? Not sure I follow the explanation. Do you need to loosen the burrs before l lock them together?

Thanks Patrick


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

pgarrish said:


> you're grinding coffee, not making a jet engine


 Wait until you have an EK 

If you know you know, if you've not had one you wouldn't understand. I've spent ages messing around with mine with shims as it spritzed worse than Roy Hattersley in an argument. I gave up when @The Systemic Kid compared mine to his old EK and EKs and found the alignment to be pretty similar.










I've just made a flat white using Rave Fudge Blend and filled the 18 VST with 18g. 36.5g out (ish). Total shot time 56 seconds

Pre-infusion time to first drips: 29 seconds. Pour from first drip to off: 27 seconds

Soft pre-infusion ramp from zero to 3 bar then 6 bar pump pressure.

Used a Londinium distribution tool, an OCD type spinney thing and a Torr Sharp Edge. I only use my fingertips on the base to evenly push down before giving it a spin/polish. Once or twice I've knocked the pf on the side of my grouphead (being clumsy) and had to go through the procedure again as this can break the seal round the edge of the basket. When I see folks hit the side of the pf with the tamper I shudder a little. There's no need to do that and it's a bad habit.









I usually dose 17g in an 18g VST and 20 to 21g in a 22g VST. I watched the puck after removing the pf and as it dried it started to pull away from the sides and crack in the middle. Also at 18g I'm getting signs of the shower screen touching. Not only that but it appears where the water flows into the puck it's xpanded it more than at the sides as the centre is higher. I'm fastidious with my puck prep.









Resulting flat white was very nice btw..

As an aside, I've found some beans spritz more than others through the EK (Turkish burrs) even though I have a wide range of espresso adjustment using these burrs. As mentioned, you may have to adjust the weight with some beans as well. I guess that's why I've not got rid of my Veralab as it enables me to pull standard shots rather than the longer EKspresso shots


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

Rhys said:


> Wait until you have an EK
> 
> If you know you know, if you've not had one you wouldn't understand. I've spent ages messing around with mine with shims as it spritzed worse than Roy Hattersley in an argument. I gave up when @The Systemic Kid compared mine to his old EK and EKs and found the alignment to be pretty similar.


 I think you've just convinced me not to bother 

I'll stick to masking my inconsistent prep with frothy milk and sugar, and a biscuit!


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

pgarrish said:


> I think you've just convinced me not to bother
> 
> I'll stick to masking my inconsistent prep with frothy milk and sugar, and a biscuit!


 If you prefer milky coffee and don't use filter/drip and if you're happy with what you've got then I wouldn't bother [IMG alt=":classic_biggrin:" data-emoticon=""]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk//coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" srcset="<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" title=":classic_biggrin:" width="20" data-src="<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/biggrin.png[/IMG]

I like espresso as well as milky coffee, light and med/dark roast (but not oily dark roast.. I don't fancy stripping my M3 again.. @coffeechap  [IMG alt=":classic_laugh:" data-emoticon=""]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk//coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" srcset="<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" title=":classic_laugh:" width="20" data-src="<fileStore.core_Emoticons>/emoticons/laugh.png[/IMG])


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

Being about £1000 short of buying one doesn't help either 

I fancy a Niche/Minima combo one day, but truth be told, the DTP/Santos pairing makes coffee we enjoy and I can buy a LOT of coffee (and scuba diving kit, there's another expensive hobby btw) for £1500

Coffee kit is very much like HiFi and many other hobbies, the law of diminishing returns kicks in with gusto beyond a certain point. If you need those last few percent and can afford it then go for it - if there weren't machines like EK's around, we wouldn't have the Niche as no-one would think 'we need something cheaper but nearly as good' without them. I can't tell enough difference to justify the expense myself which is just as well.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Re puck , post extraction , I'll leave this here. Is what your seeing post extraction a result of coffee expanding significantly or a result of three way solenoids sucking up the puck and cracking ....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Also


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

rob177palmer said:


> Do you have a link to Spencer's method? Not sure I follow the explanation. Do you need to loosen the burrs before l lock them together?
> 
> Thanks Patrick


 @rob177palmer

Spence's method here


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

The Systemic Kid said:


> @rob177palmer
> 
> Spence's method here


 Thanks sir.

Presumably, the bit below. Interesting idea - I am in tonight so will give this a go.

"Once the front is on, unplug your grinder and loosen the adjustment knob. Using a flathead screwdriver, tighten up the grind adjustment so that the burrs are tightly forced together. Do not switch on your grinder! Leave it like this for a few minutes. Now loosen the grind adjustment so that the burrs don't touch and use the regular zeroing procedure for the ek. The theory of this one is that there is usually a very small amount of movement of the carrier on the shaft. By forcing the burrs flat together then the lube would distribute itself in a way that would help keep the carrier in place. I don't know if it works but it takes a couple of minutes and my coffee tastes great so I'll keep on doing it "


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

> 1 hour ago, Mrboots2u said:
> 
> Re puck , post extraction , I'll leave this here. Is what your seeing post extraction a result of coffee expanding significantly or a result of three way solenoids sucking up the puck and cracking ....


 I had forgotten this video. Superb to see what happens, in particular the rapid expansion of the puck. Presumably with a declining pressure lever, this expansion will be more slow and progressive.,


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Before








Hope the sticky shit comes off eventually 








After the coarse grit. Now need to move up a size.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

After a long and surprisingly tiring evening of sanding, here is the back burr chamber. Quite pleased with the results, but decided not to bother really polishing with high grade paper, i am well into the range of diminishing returns already!!

[IMG alt="IMG_9184.thumb.jpg.a6ad6af3ddcc399cd017b25c347e43b9.jpg" data-fileid="30293"]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk//coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_06/IMG_9184.thumb.jpg.a6ad6af3ddcc399cd017b25c347e43b9.jpg[/IMG]

Checking the alignment, I am now within 1.5 microns all round, which I am delighted with.

http://





[/URL]

Interestingly, the three areas where the gauge measures -1um correspond with the bolts. Loosening the bolts made no difference, so I tightened them evenly again.

I then moved on to sanding the floating burr carrier, which was a bit quicker, possibly due to knowing what I was doing by that point.

Probably the most frustrating bit was the clean up and removing the glue residues. Sticky Stuff Remover did its job in the end!

I wasn't inclined to check with the whiteboard pen test, so I am claiming the alignment is now done. I used a torque wrench to tighten the faceplate bolts evenly and back together.

Incidentally, does anyone know why one burr is labelled "3" on the back, and the other "4"?!

[IMG alt="IMG_9183.thumb.jpg.792c8a91d3b1ad4ba5b23cc30ba0c6a9.jpg" data-fileid="30294"]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk//coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_06/IMG_9183.thumb.jpg.792c8a91d3b1ad4ba5b23cc30ba0c6a9.jpg[/IMG]


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Bit personal - mind your own business I've checked alignment on five EKs to date - none needed shimming or sanding. That said, one owner had spent half a lifetime shimming his and done a very respectable job to bring alignment down to a > 1 µm. Were I to do it, would go for sanding - too much faff taking burrs out, shimming, checking, taking burrs out again...and again. On another EK, owner thought alignment was out as he was on zero on adjustment dial and still getting spurters so assumed it was an alignment problem. Having run the alignment check - run out was no more that 1 - 1.5 µm max.
> 
> When zeroing burrs I use @Spencermethod of locking the burrs quite tightly and leaving them for several minutes - obviously with power disconnected for safety. Then back off the rotating burr, switch on and zero the burrs. Mahlkonig recommend backing off no more than 10 degrees which is naff all. Doing this on above EK, resulted in it being able to produce pukka espresso for lighter roasts at 1.0 - 2.0 on dial.
> 
> Would seem, as a rough rule of thumb, for EKs and especially EKSs - you should be able to grind lighter roasts at 1.0 - 2.0 on dial with the caveat that the burrs are fully seasoned. If your burrs are well seasoned and you are able to use these settings for lighter roasts and the coffee tastes good, i.e., not under or over extracted when pulling 1:2 - 1:3, I wouldn't put yourself to the trouble of sanding. As the saying goes, 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'.


I have reset the zero on the burrs after then "clamp tightly together and leave to settle" method.

This video shows how I have set the burrs - @The Systemic Kid /@fluffles- is this sufficient chirping sound for the zero point?

http://


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## CoffeeRat (May 15, 2014)

> does anyone know why one burr is labelled "3" on the back, and the other "4"?!


 it's some kind of cast batch number or cast form number.
also looking on your DTI your misalignment has to be x10 ) Sorry. As 1 micron = 0,001 mm


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

CoffeeRat said:


> > does anyone know why one burr is labelled "3" on the back, and the other "4"?!


 it's some kind of cast batch number or cast form number.
also looking on your DTI your misalignment has to be x10 ) Sorry. As 1 micron = 0,001 mm

Ah - good point - thank you.

To be honest I was confused by the lack of a scale on the dial of the gauge.

So my alignment is good to 15um?! I'm still happy and hopeful for something different in use tomorrow morning


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

@rob177palmer Not clear from your video if you have the burrs chirping, i.e. contact, at zero on the dial. If you have done this, not recommended.

Correct procedure is to undo the two hex nuts on the adjustment knob so it has no effect when you turn it back and forth. Back off the rotating burr by inserting a flat head screwdriver into the centre recess. Now power on your EK and tighten the centre adjustment screw gently until chirping begins then back off until chirping stops. You might need to do this several times to be confident you are backing off sufficiently but no more. Now turn the loose adjustment knob so it's pointing to zero and tighten up the hex nuts to clamp it. Turn the knob back and forth to zero to ensure the burrs don't chirp at zero.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

It's all good fun!!


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

The Systemic Kid said:


> @rob177palmer Not clear from your video if you have the burrs chirping, i.e. contact, at zero on the dial. If you have done this, not recommended.
> Correct procedure is to undo the two hex nuts on the adjustment knob so it has no effect when you turn it back and forth. Back off the rotating burr by inserting a flat head screwdriver into the centre recess. Now power on your EK and tighten the centre adjustment screw gently until chirping begins then back off until chirping stops. You might need to do this several times to be confident you are backing off sufficiently but no more. Now turn the loose adjustment knob so it's pointing to zero and tighten up the hex nuts to clamp it. Turn the knob back and forth to zero to ensure the burrs don't chirp at zero.


Thank you. I am at a tiny bit of chirp at zero, so will back this off a nudge.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

So my grinder has 1.5g of retained beans from a complete strip down and clean, which is interesting. Maybe will lose a little more as the grinds compact but last dose lost no weight.

I have increased the dose to 15g again and was VERY careful on inserting the PF. Here was the result, ground at 0.95 on the dial after I adjusted to be just-off-chirp-at-zero. 








Poured cleanly with no obvious significant channelling, and tasted very good indeed. That one was worth last night's efforts 

Thank you for everyone's input thus far.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

I think sometimes you have to laugh at the ridiculousness of this all.

Same 15g in. Clean pour with no obvious channelling. Puck looks good:














Coffee tasted great.....








....but 9 seconds quicker to the target weight?!!

Ah well....really enjoyed the shot


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

To follow up on the above, I have managed a few exceptional shots over the weekend, certainly AB improvement over the prior week.

I have rebased my doses to 15g, which has significantly reduced the instances of channelling, so thank you for that advice.

I working through options for a larger sharp-edge tamper to hopefully solve the channelling as far as possible.

I'm not expecting to ever completely master the EK and understand it will occasionally spritz everywhere, to show who is boss, but very happy with progress this far.

I did have another muppet incident this morning, forgetting to lock in the catch cup before throwing beans in the top. The damn thing grinds so fast that the counter is covered in a beautiful pile of precision-ground coffee before your brain has clocked what has gone wrong!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Has your grind setting shifted at all since sanding?

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

fluffles said:


> Has your grind setting shifted at all since sanding?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


Before or after he re-zeroed the burrs?


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Before or after he re-zeroed the burrs?


Yeah - that's the thing - reset them so I am still grinding at 0.9.

This time I didn't make a note of where they chirped afterwards so can't compare.

I should maybe have done the marker pen check for the alignment but CBA. Might go back to that later when I fancy checking.

My shots are fast. It's hard to choke the lever. I mean, I could but somehow something dissuades you from grinding at 0.1 etc. Might try that tomorrow to see how it works.

At 0.9 I am getting a c 15s PI for about 1g Of drips in the cup then engaging the lever, only 35s overall tho, so a speedy pour. Sometimes smooth, sometimes choppy with channelling, hoping the letter becomes less frequent!!

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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

If alignment is better and no shims are used, then the zero point will have moved out (i.e. would need to turn a bit further to hear burr chirp). You would also expect to be at a slightly coarser setting for the same flow rate once zero point was reset.

Don't be afraid of quick shots, most (not all) coffees taste best with ~20s pours for me.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

I found that grinding too fine results in channeling and ends up pouring fast-ish anyway.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

fluffles said:


> If alignment is better and no shims are used, then the zero point will have moved out (i.e. would need to turn a bit further to hear burr chirp). You would also expect to be at a slightly coarser setting for the same flow rate once zero point was reset.
> Don't be afraid of quick shots, most (not all) coffees taste best with ~20s pours for me.


RE the shot speed point.

One thing I am noticing is that, with the Ceado, I could grind finer to slow the shot and create greater tiger striping on the surface. This would tend to deliver a shot with an improved depth of flavour.

On the EK I can slow the shot down to c. 15s PI then a 30s pour, which will deliver tiger striping, but the flow really dribbles and the shot tastes worse than a 10s PI and 20s pull.

I am not saying that tiger striping in itself equated to a "better" / "tastier" shot, but on the Ceado it seemed to indicate a more complete extraction, whereas on the EK I am hitting a different type of "tasty" often without tiger striping and sometimes with a crema that looks so light it should be under extracted, but isn't!

I have been told by everyone to throw the rule book out of the window with this grinder, and I am starting to appreciate what this means.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ignore tiger striping, crema as a quantifiable indication of extraction.

If you are running 15 seconds pre infusion your shot will run fast after. Forgive me is this with a Lever btw ( if so belting it with 9 bar after will give you some channeling etc )

It's a hard thing too do , but ignore where other people are grinding , what the shot is doing ( speeding up and visual clues ) and perhaps hey use some spouts for a bit. Ignore the hyperbole of older threads ( mine included ) .

The EK can be a bitch, where you end up second guessing yourself as it makes a different style of espresso , visually and in the cup. You can drive yourself made going " if i got it to this alignment it will be earth shattering, if i could get a shorter shot on a longer time it would be earth shattering and on and on. Dont compare the cups to traditional espresso don't compare the timings , looks, visuals to previous shots or youtube clips.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ignore tiger striping, crema as a quantifiable indication of extraction.


I know, I know, but this is all part of throwing the rulebook out. Just reflecting on the fact that my previous internal feelings based on visual queues no longer apply.



Mrboots2u said:


> Forgive me is this with a Lever btw ( if so belting it with 9 bar after will give you some channeling etc )


Yes - a Quickmill Veloce.

I previously tried retarding the lever at first engagement what I got it 18 months ago to slow down the ramp up of pressure. I might try again, out of interest.

I'll sort myself a better tamper to help this also and noted on length of PI.

I am allowing more than a few drops into the cup before engaging lever, which might be different to others but my justification is I am waiting for first drips from across the basket, not just one point.



Mrboots2u said:


> The EK can be a bitch, where you end up second guessing yourself as it makes a different style of espresso , visually and in the cup. You can drive yourself made going " if i got it to this alignment it will be earth shattering, if i could get a shorter shot on a longer time it would be earth shattering and on and on. Dont compare the cups to traditional espresso don't compare the timings , looks, visuals to previous shots or youtube clips.


Truly wise words!

It's all still fun though, which is the main thing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Wait until you find out that you don't like medium roasts anymore and want to even lighter!

Maybe it's just me, but I don't necessarily enjoy roasters I was loyal to.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Interesting learning experience today.

1:3 in 35s ground at 0.5. Tasted okay but flavours a bit muddy and thick, almost too strong, but crema looked light (as above I promise I'm not divining using crema, but i do still use it as a subjective indication)

Where I might preciously have tightened the grind a little to slow the shot to try and extract more, I decided to loosen instead.

1:3 in 32s ground at 0.6......now there's the mango and strawberry!! 

Barely any change in grind, big change in flavour profile.

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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Not many updates in recent weeks due to the very shallow learning curve!

I have been finding mixed results, and thus far I have been happy moving from at first about 25%, to more recently 75% of shots being good or great. I admit to occasionally hankering after the simplicity and consistent results from my trusty e37s....

I do wonder about swapping out the burrs at some point in future to see if aftermarket burrs can recover some of the more "traditional" espresso taste profile, but that demon on my shoulder can wait until next year.

Useability of this thing is an absolute joy. Swapping from espresso to French press and back again, knowing if either isn't perfect coffee then no blame can lay with thr grinder is brilliant.

I have swapped from my 58.4 convex trap Torr to a flat sharp-edge, which has completely transformed extractions - I am now getting an even bleed across the basket and much more consistent PI.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

I had a revelation yesterday, which is worth sharing.

I have used a 15g VST successfully for a couple of years, which I have always loved, albeit I know others hate.

Dosing 14.5g with my EK i was having trouble balancing correct PI time with a smooth extraction.

It is hard to explain, but you can clearly taste when grind is too fine and the extraction is too slow on the EK. The taste changes massively.

I have never noticed this with other grinders and I am now understanding more about the dial-in-by-taste mantra that Boots and others regularly advise. I think as a beginner having lower quality kit, this just didn't make sense and may not have been possible at first. Now I have had this machine, I suspect I would be able to use this method even with other grinders.

Back on point, too fine grind = slow extraction = disappointing muddy flavour.

So you loosen the grind, to improve the flavour clarity, but suddenly the grind is too coarse to allow a full PI across the entire basket - drips pouring out before the blush is seen across the entire basket.

The resultant coffee tastes weaker - definitely lower TDS - so you tighten the grind and end up muddy again. I was giving up and erring on the weaker side to avoid muddy taste.

There was basically no way of balancing the grind / tamp pressure to allow a slower PI with a faster extraction.

Then it hit me: increase the depth of the coffee bed.

With a 15g dose in I can now get a 5-10s PI followed by a clean 20s pour. The perfect balance for these beans (some superb Ethiopian natural from TripleCo).

So I have learned to consider dose more in the recipe and use as a variable, rather than fixed.

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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Can't remember what machine you have, is it a londinium? If so, I would definitely agree that life will be hard with an EK and 14.5g doses, I think that would suit a lower pressure profile.

I would suggest even trying a bigger basket and dose


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

I have an almost-Londinium, mine is the Quickmill Veloce, and maximum shot output volume is 45-50g, so it's a bit of a mismatch with the EK as basically I can only hit 1:3 with my 15g basket, so sort of stuck with it :-/

That said, even this slightly larger dose has transformed the shot.

I didn't think I had a real reason to scratch the LR itch....but maybe longer shot volume could be my excuse?!

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

rob177palmer said:


> I had a revelation yesterday, which is worth sharing.
> 
> I have used a 15g VST successfully for a couple of years, which I have always loved, albeit I know others hate.
> 
> ...


 Don't focus too much on full pi across a basket with the EK.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Fair...

I am absolutely dialing in to the taste of the pour, not aiming for a specific PI, BUT I can clearly see a less balanced pour/extraction if I start the pour before the blush has spread entirely across the basket.

If, say I get drips from one area really quickly (1-2seconds say) and have to cock the lever before a full blush appears, this indicates too coarse a grind, and I know the actual shot will be underextracted. I would tend to confirm this from taste.

I am not grinding to target PI, just finding better shots where I achieve a full
Blush before a quick pour

If that makes sense.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

rob177palmer said:


> Fair...
> 
> I am absolutely dialing in to the taste of the pour, not aiming for a specific PI, BUT I can clearly see a less balanced pour/extraction if I start the pour before the blush has spread entirely across the basket.
> 
> ...


 Makes sense, but the visuals from am ek shot are gonna be a little differing to other grinders. Harder to get a coffee porn extraction. Coz you can't lower your flow to pressure after pi, then I found shots ran quicker and uglier


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

One more thing....I have found me needing to tamp hard with this grinder to offer sufficient puck resistance at the right grind size.

Does anyone else notice this?

No longer "grind fine tamp light" with my lever!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

rob177palmer said:


> One more thing....I have found me needing to tamp hard with this grinder to offer sufficient puck resistance at the right grind size.
> 
> Does anyone else notice this?
> 
> No longer "grind fine tamp light" with my lever!


 Depends what you mean by sufficient puck resistance tbh.

Really early on we were massively over dosing and mashing the puck down in the old l1 and ek ( A rave meets spring to mind on this but this may be a function of the coffee we were using_

You can get tastier , longer and quicker shots on the EK than other grinder, 25 seconds is not the benchmark of a shot or resistance ( i am nit sure if that is what you are alluding to )

Other machines were you can control the max pressure exerted are pre infusion or the flow , make it easier to hot some of those timing benchmarks people have , but it might not mean it's tastier.

EK shots for me were tasty at 1:2.5 and over but with the original EK's/l1 i was getting to the limit of my dose/water combo. So shots were quick and weaker , sweet but clearer . After pre infusion if a shot ran 15-20 seconds max that would be normal.

Of course my experience will vary from others, in the same way that it would appear not all EK43's are equal from factory either . Ed's are just not, having had three in one room at one time ...

Don't fell like I am being very helpful tbh...


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

No, it is definitely helpful to read your comments, so thank you as ever.

I'm not trying to artificially reach some arbitrary 30s mark, but possibly am still slightly wedded to the idea of PI being a good thing, so I need to adjust prep to make sure I can allow time for PI.

I like that my lever is largely a fixed variable, so the grinder and prep are the bits to focus on.

I have to admit i haven't blind tasted a gorilla tamp long PI shot against a light time short PI one. I will put that on my learning list.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Zwanger said:


> To do things better start doing nutation and going coarser. This will improve the channeling thing, the taste will be better, the pour will be slower with coarser grind. The EY% will go up 1-2 %.
> 
> Improvements to your Ek for future will be the latest version of carrier from Titus (the beans are brought into the grinding chamber slower, they do fewer fines, the taste is sweeter) and a set of SSP burrs.
> There is a vehiculation that finer= larger total area= higher EY. This is not the case, I already have to many shots, with 1 minute preinfusion, after a certain point of fine, the water doesn't flow in the coffee puck efficient and the extraction collapses. You need the find the best grind size and for the moment this will be reflected in the taste. In the future you can consider a refractometer (130 E cheapest) on Ebay-Amazon.
> Higher % EY will result in better tasting coffee always, not matter what roast.




Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Zwanger said:


> To do things better start doing nutation and going coarser. This will improve the channeling thing, the taste will be better, the pour will be slower with coarser grind. The EY% will go up 1-2 %.
> 
> Improvements to your Ek for future will be the latest version of carrier from Titus (the beans are brought into the grinding chamber slower, they do fewer fines, the taste is sweeter) and a set of SSP burrs.
> 
> ...


 Nutation that's old school ek. In terms of what's it's doing to your puck prep hmmm.

Don't agree higher ey is better for all coffees.

Bad over roasted coffee get worse the higher and more you extract it.

Pre infusion at low pressure or low flow? Doing different things.

Whether you have a few posts or not I don't care tbh. Posts numbers don't make someone more wrong or right. Myself being the perfect example.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Did you use a syringe filter for the espresso? And are you in "S01" or "S02" mode, as it's hard to see.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Zwanger said:


> No I am not using filters and I will not use filters. All my friend are using it w/o filters, and Rao uses it w/o filters. The difference is small. And I do alot of meassurements, I would throw alot of money on filters (1$ per filter).
> 
> Refractometer is set in TDS mode = S02. Don't worry I know it's hard to believe. But I had 27%+ extraction from some varieties of espresso. And to exclude the "you got a cheap refractometer" that doesn't show right values (cause I had this already on Instagram) I pull the same coffee (same roast date-same batch) with my friend (Speedster Idro+ Ek43s aligned with SSP) he uses HM digital refractometer, and we are getting the same values (+- 0.5%).
> 
> Ciao.


 I'd really like to believe the current interest in super-high extractions was down to more than sloppy protocol.

Maybe better to make fewer, more realistic measurements.

Refractometers can't handle the suspended solids - cheap ones, nor expensive ones.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

My extraction is bigger than your extraction talk does little for me nowadays, used to doesn't anymore. Especially when people are quoting unfiltered measurements v older filtered measurements More power to you, you spent a huge amount on an EK43 and possibly new pre breaker and new burrs.

I'd prefer the tech and advance to be with roastedlrs nowadays so I can get good cofferle that makes good, espresso and filter with more humble gear. There are not enough of those around. And there are not enough people interested in ek43s modded to make coffee sustainable for people..

A good rock mountain should make a good espresso without an EK43


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

I'm pretty sure Rao uses VST filters, at least he used to. It's also in the VST Refractometer protocol. If you're not following any protocol but just measuring wrongly, the measurement is meaningless.

It's also easy to get very high extractions, just grind as fine as you can and make Turkish coffee as it has been done for generations/centuries.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Zwanger said:


> At the events (WOC) he didn't use filters (cause of time). And there is not a huge difference in filtered vs unfiltered. I am not having this conversation again, I know how my coffee is tasting correlated to EY%.
> 
> And the taste everyone is saying that you get a bad taste when you "Extract" more out of the coffee, is just an under extraction bitter, salty, sour and it has nothing to do with a higher extraction.


 If you "know" how it tastes correlated to EY, then why the need to measure it. Why ask a question if you somehow already know the answer.

The bad taste of over-extraction is not under-extraction, it's over-extraction...just because someone isn't familiar with what over-extraction tastes like doesn't mean that all bad coffee is under-extracted. You can still screw up the flavour at any extraction. Admittedly, the finer you grind, within reason, the higher your good tasting extractions can be. But as yet, there is no data/study on preference vs extraction for different grind sizes. I've made thousands of measurements, throw in grind size, method and range of tasty EY is large, you need to be very specific to nail down a typical ROI of less than or equal to +/-2% (yours is much wider than that).

Your +-5% tds error mentioned earlier drops your 25.3% EY to 22.4%, add in error due to unfiltered sample and you could be extracting the same as any number of people on here.

You might well be doing what you state, at least some of the time, but we'd be more reassured with a bit more care taken.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Zwanger said:


> At the events (WOC) he didn't use filters (cause of time). And there is not a huge difference in filtered vs unfiltered. I am not having this conversation again, I know how my coffee is tasting correlated to EY%.
> 
> And I went to coffee shops and measured their shots. I got 16% EY espresso, not only in 1 coffee shop but more.
> 
> ...


 My long pre infusion pucks do not channel. I don't try and do 2 minute shots, I don't know who does. 20 to 30 seconds at low flow max.

OK You know how your coffee tastes but you can't compare unfiltered and filtered measurements . I did a ton of this about 3 years ago and you get variance and outliers that shows why it isn't reliable and comparable to each other

Lastly I am not trying to make the highest extraction possible. I am trying to Make consistently tasty coffee over the 2to 3 cups I make every day.

I don't want coffee to be garbage at 19 to 20 percent and good at 25 percent. People don't have the gear and the inclination to do this they will just come to the conclusion the coffee is bad and go back to easy to make commodity stuff.

It's good there is debate and experimentation but I want that to feed through into real world application, tastier coffee in cafes and amde accessibly at home.


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

Zwager I can't believe you've drawn me in to this as well but anyways here goes

Measurements without a filter are not accurate. Listen to Scott Rao's lecture on extraction measurement, he says that yes you can skip the filter but even then it's finicky to get a near accurate representation of the TDS. It involves quickly pressing the button over and over (VST refractometer) to force it to read quickly.

You simply cannot compare a filtered measurement to an unfiltered one. And imo if it's something you're going to post online or discuss with others, you can't even compare two unfiltered measurements.

Just as an FYI the people you're debating this with are some of the most knowledgeable on this forum


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Zwanger said:


> Mrboots2u now I know how you made the posts. Why you post in this topic if you have no interest in ek43, or own one? The tools used to prepare this coffee in total cost under 1000$ (espresso machine, grinder+burrs, and the rest of the accessories).
> 
> Second, if there is a 5% variation in measurements (and it's not 5% you can search Socraticcoffee ) then it means in the big coffee shop with good reviews in many cities in Europe I got 16-17% EY on my unfiltered refractometer but in reality I got 15.2-16.15% EY?! Oh! wow, great (sarcasm).
> 
> ...


 I don't own an ek you are right. I had one what 4 years ago for a good period of time.

Sorry I don't buy into the process socratic coffee use either they are not rigorous enough in their processes for huge amounts of what they do.

I'll dip out of this discussion now as it isn't serving the op any good us rattling on and Ive been in too many of these threads and they go round and round in circles.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

fluffles said:


> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


Got any spare popcorn?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Zwanger said:


> And to exclude the "you got a cheap refractometer" that doesn't show right values (cause I had this already on Instagram) I pull the same coffee (same roast date-same batch) with my friend (Speedster Idro+ Ek43s aligned with SSP) he uses HM digital refractometer, and we are getting the same values (+- 0.5%).
> 
> Ciao.


 The "+/-0.5%" error margin statement came from you @Zwanger.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

@Zwanger I love crazy ideas, but if you're going to say something is real & more than an idea, back it up with good protocol.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Zwanger said:


> At the events (WOC) he didn't use filters (cause of time). And there is not a huge difference in filtered vs unfiltered. I am not having this conversation again, I know how my coffee is tasting correlated to EY%.
> And I went to coffee shops and measured their shots. I got 16% EY espresso, not only in 1 coffee shop but more.
> You are completely wrong, a finer grind will just compress the puck when you hit it with water in the brew stage after PI and it will make channeling, the puck will compress. I tried 2 minutes shots, I already tried everything there is. There is a point if you pass it you drop the EY% no matter how much PI you do.
> And the taste everyone is saying that you get a bad taste when you "Extract" more out of the coffee, is just an under extraction bitter, salty, sour and it has nothing to do with a higher extraction.


If over extraction is under extraction, what then is under extraction?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ashcroc said:


> Zwanger said:
> 
> 
> > At the events (WOC) he didn't use filters (cause of time). And there is not a huge difference in filtered vs unfiltered. I am not having this conversation again, I know how my coffee is tasting correlated to EY%.
> ...


 ...missing lines from the script of Airplane?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

MWJB said:


> ...missing lines from the script of Airplane?


Shirley you can't be serious!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Zwanger said:


> Get the rock out boys. Higher TDS means unfiltered, and lower means filtered.
> 
> Did 3 pulls, the difference between filtered and unfiltered remains in the same range. The coffee was cooled, stirred and mixed.
> 
> ...


 I suggest you start another thread with this stuff on as it's not really inline with the OP's question

For those that want to debate with you perhaps provide a link to the refractometer also.

While your posts are interesting to debate , i do find the tone in which you post a aggressive tbh.

Debate is good, starting a post with, for me at least, the tone of wanting conflict not so much.

I don't think either myself or Mark were deliberately trolling , we just don't agree and or see holes in the process and the gear use, based on our experience.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Zwanger said:


> I was expecting way more responses after posting the comparison on filteres versus unfiltered coffees. Earlier you where really chatty but all of a sudden you all went silent mode.
> 
> For me the exact value of the Ey is not important, as it measures just a tiny part of what is in the cup. But it's a good method to guide you towards better extractions. 24.5 or 25.7 I don't really cares as long as I have the numbers I want and expect. This is the reason I don't use filters on measurements. Good weekend to you all.


 Do you own an Ek43 as it is unclear in the photo with the fear la peppina? I would reiterate what Mrboots2u above has said, this is not so relevant to the OP so start another thread and invite people into your world of nutation. I found nutation was used on my early ek because it could not grind fine enough, I still sometimes use it, but find it creates dead spots due to uneven tamp pressure, but if that is what works for you keep it up. PS no need to be quite so aggressive with the folk on here.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Starting a post with 'get the rocks out boys' isn't going to encourage good debate, I'd say.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Bringing this back on track a little bit, this morning's shots have been superb - almost strangely so!

I have had no problems getting sweet, clean and balanced flavours from the EK, but it is less common to get strong tasting and heavier body.

Recipe fairly fixed at 15:45 over 20-30s (time depending on Lord knows what!!)

now I have found some magic this morning!

Anecdotally, I have noticed that shots with a slow and even PI followed by a faster pull are the best...that is just a very hard thing to achieve! Sometimes I notice that the pull flows evenly without any observable channelling and forms the shape of quite a large aerated cone of espresso flowing from the basket.

These are the god shots and I just need to produce them more often









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

rob177palmer said:


> Bringing this back on track a little bit, this morning's shots have been superb - almost strangely so!
> 
> I have had no problems getting sweet, clean and balanced flavours from the EK, but it is less common to get strong tasting and heavier body.
> 
> ...


 It's good to see you are getting there rob, the ek is one of the more challenging beasts out there, however it is also the most rewarding when you get it spot on.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

@Zwanger are you just an antagonist or just rude, I really do not see what was sad about my reply to rob. I am just not sure if your motives on this thread, whether it's to stir things up or just act like your forum name less the Z


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## B-Roadie (Feb 29, 2016)

Loved reading all of this (until the silliness started) now feel scared by an EK mind 😂


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

B-Roadie said:


> Loved reading all of this (until the silliness started) now feel scared by an EK mind 😂


 Don't be... They are fantastic grinders once they are tuned up and when you get it right they will blow your socks off with the results. I had one for a few years and found my coffee intake went up by quite a bit. Only reason I got rid of mine was I preferred my Versalab for espresso, and found I wasn't using my filter/pour over stuff as much so the EK wasn't being used. Pair an EK with a volumetric doser (like mine had) and it's a pretty quick workflow, especially when you're half asleep at 5am trying to make a few shots to wake up with.


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## B-Roadie (Feb 29, 2016)

I've just upgraded my espresso machine and looking towards next steps (it'll be months before I commit). A little frustrated by the clumping issues I'm getting although perhaps exacerbated by darker and more oily beans than I am familiar with. Much work to do on my own skills but an EK is certainly high on the list eventually, as is an E37S.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Once these are aligned they are good. Would be my choice for filter only.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

In top it also helps to get one of the burrs from SSP and a carrier from Titus, the latter improved alignment and reduces retention to almost nothing, no more bean fragments hiding under the entrance point under the bean feeder.


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