# New machine



## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

I could do with some advice. I'm looking to upgrade this year from my Piccino.

I was wondering what the main differences are between the Expobar Office Leva Dual Boiler Coffee Machine & PID and the Rocket R58, which costs around £600 more.

Another option was the cherub, Its just a shame theres no PID on these yet


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## SweeneyTodd (Jan 4, 2013)

The Cherub is an HX machine which relies on the E61 thermosyphon to maintain a consistent brew temp - so no PID required.

If you are looking at HX as well as DB, have you thought about the Expobar Office Leva Single Boiler (HX). I've just bought one and am really pleased with it.


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

Recent improvements to the Cherub make it even better value for money than it was before! It's a real step up from the Piccino and a really well put together machine. Check the Cherub out here http://www.thecoffeebean-vanandroaster.co.uk/Heavenly---Cherub.html


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Main differences between the expobar and the rocket are:

- Name

- Rocket is rotary pumped, expo is vibe pump (rotary is quieter and some say delivers smoother pressure)

- Rocket can be plumbed in to run from mains supply or can run from a tank. Expo is tank only (or plumb only if you buy that model)

- Rocket is supposed to use more commercial grade components (not 100% sure on this one)

Those are the main differences but the expobar is a lot of machine for £1100.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Thanks for replys. Sorry I forgot to delete my last paragraph about the cherub. Was looking more on the side of a dual boiler. So apart from the rocket and Expo machine thats about it?

Have read a few reports on the expo with little niggles etc.


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

Any particular little niggles in the expo?

i have one and love it,can't really think of anything on it that niggles me


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

It was this

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/ExpobarOfficeLeva-DualBoilerv4CoffeeMachine.pdf

Although looking at it again this is version 3. Are they on version 4 now?


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

Yeah,mines 2010 and a V.4


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The R58 is a PITA in terms of having the control box external and needing plugging in, well it would annoy me anyway


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

Rave Coffee can do a special order so you can have a Rotary Pump in the Expobar if you so desire (I've no idea how much extra it costs).


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Why are you set on a dual boiler? For the majority of home users a HX provides more than enough steam power and are just a thermally stable. The PID enables easy control in changing brew temperature, a good HX will be just as stable and more efficient.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

I'm not set on a dual boiler, but the

THE NEW IZZO ALEX DUETTO MK IV ESPRESSO COFFEE MACHINE was a few hundred more than a rocket. And this was a hx machine. The review I watched on seattle YouTube channel rated th e rocket over the izzo.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Geordie Boy said:


> Rave Coffee can do a special order so you can have a Rotary Pump in the Expobar if you so desire (I've no idea how much extra it costs).


That's interesting to know. Wonder if it's worth spending the extra on a rotary pump

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The delivery from a rotary is so much smoother....


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Rotary pump is also quieter than a vibe pump.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

forzajuve said:


> Why are you set on a dual boiler? For the majority of home users a HX provides more than enough steam power and are just a thermally stable. The PID enables easy control in changing brew temperature, a good HX will be just as stable and more efficient.


I'm all for more energy efficient. What would you recommend

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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Well if you're looking at a R58 then why not an Evo. They are plumb/tank and rotary. Unless you want to change temperature easily there is no further benefit from a PID at this level. If I had the money it would be a contender, then there is the L1 which is getting rave reviews....

The Duetto is a dual boiler but Izzo do a HX as well, IMO not worth the extra cash above a Rocket.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

forzajuve said:


> Well if you're looking at a R58 then why not an Evo. They are plumb/tank and rotary. Unless you want to change temperature easily there is no further benefit from a PID at this level. If I had the money it would be a contender, then there is the L1 which is getting rave reviews....
> 
> The Duetto is a dual boiler but Izzo do a HX as well, IMO not worth the extra cash above a Rocket.


I never thought I would upgrade my current machine, so just wanted to future proof myself with pid. Sorry, what machine is the)L1 and evo?

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## Shady (Jan 1, 2013)

The L1 is from Londinium, evo stands for Rocket evoluzione - a HX range of machines with rotary pump and capable of being ran on either reservoir or mains water (plumbed in). I have a Rocket evo Cellini myself - great little machine!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

inaboxmedia said:


> Sorry, what machine is the L1?


LI (Londinium) is a lever espresso machine. It is made by Francino in Birmingham having been designed by Reiss Gunson proprietor of Londinium roastery, London. It's based on the original approach to making espresso - that is using a hand operated lever/piston combination to drive water through ground coffee to give espresso.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Looking at the r58 I'm mainly paying extra for the pid then. Is the evo hx or dual boiler

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## twistywizard (Sep 3, 2012)

I have a Expobar Dual Leva and love it. I like having the PID function personally to play with brew temps as it does alter the taste of different coffees quite dramatically. Also for me, there isnt really a machine above this for sensible money to upgrade too.

I did consider a HX machine but had the feeling I would end up selling and buying a Dual Boiler with PID at some point. Plus I like to fiddle and play around which is ideal with the PID. Also yes the HX are more efficent energy wise as they only have one boiler however to be honest this is not really a massive problem. You are highly unlikely to have it running 24/7 and if you know do not want milk then turn of the Steam boiler.

Granted the HX are great but personally I would stretch the extra little and go Dual Boiler. A friend has the Dual Boiler Rocket, I will point him in this direction to give his views on it. The Rocket is a lovely looking machine and with the Rotary pump is very quiet compared to my Vibe pump Expobar. However for me I do not find myself being too bothered by the sound.

As for the Rotary pump being smoother, I cannot comment however Brewtus can knock out cup after cup after cup of consistent good tasting coffee. There are far more things to worry about when extracting than the difference in smoothness between a vibe and rotary pump in a home environment.

I find I can make consistent changes with consistent results. I turn it on, it heats up. I flick the lever on and let a little bit dribble out. Make my espresso and steam my milk. I can them come back time after time and do the same and the results taste the same and the resulting extracted Weight to time is pretty much the same each time.

Just my two pence worth as there seems to be a bit of DB hate going on recently on here


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

The Rocket machines look beautiful and although they have a very good reputation, the main thing you are paying for over say an Expobar or a Fracino is style.

Although Dual Boiler seems like a logical solution maintaining separate temperatures for brewing and steaming, HX machines are a tried and tested elegant way of doing the same and tend to have greater steam power. There is also an argument (not necessarily proven) that because HX machines are heating fresh water via a heat exchanger (basically the brew water flows through a pipe that is heated by the water in the boiler rather than being taken from the boiler water itself) the brew water is 'fresher'. Dual Boiler machines do, of course, give you more opportunity for tweaking temperature. Which makes the best coffee is something owners will argue over forever.

Look at the Londinium I too. It's a beautiful machine, very simple in many ways without much to go wrong. And it makes fantastic coffee.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Its all very confusing! RoloD When watching the seattle coffee review of the r58 and izzo alex duetto I think they preferred the rocket. Think she also said there was more steam power? Not that it matters really. Also. Are the temps more stable on Dual Boilers rather than a HX machine?

One last question. I have a vario grinder. Is this ok to use with a higher spec machine?


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## MichaelSmith81 (Nov 20, 2012)

It is all down to money obviously, and the amount that you are willing to spend. I'm sure the HX machines and the Dual boiler machines are capable of pulling just as good a espresso as each other. There is more adjustable with some of the dual boiler machines and its obvious that if you have two boilers with two separate heading elements controlling two different outputs (Steam ~124 degrees and Espresso Extraction ~94 degrees) this is going to be more accurate/stable than a boiler that does both through a HX.

I have don't it before purchased something and then wished I spent that little bit more to get everything that I wanted in the first place (selling an old item and actually spending more in the longer term to get what I originally wanted but never justified it or couldn't afford it at the time).

But whatever you get at £1k+ I'm sure will be capable of pulling good espresso shots, but if you are an engineer like me and like to play around with variables etc. get the dual boiler - providing the money can stretch..

But the bottom line the superior machine is a dual boiler, why would they make them otherwise as there would be no reason for the manufactures to produce and sell at a higher price if it wasn't any better. (Differences in the home environment are negligible).

Just buy within your budget&#8230; If mine was £3-5K I would be looking at the LA Marzocco GS3 or the KVDW Speedster.

One thing to note with the Alex is the clearance from the grouphead to the drip tray (you would only be able to get small cups and espresso shots under it). As I weigh all my shots, so would only have been able to get espresso cups under. The Rocket has loads of space to allow for weighing pulled shots.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

inaboxmedia said:


> Its all very confusing! RoloD When watching the seattle coffee review of the r58 and izzo alex duetto I think they preferred the rocket. Think she also said there was more steam power? Not that it matters really. Also. Are the temps more stable on Dual Boilers rather than a HX machine?


They are both high-spec machines, but I believe Bella Barista in the UK (who sell both) prefer the Alex. The plug-in PID control on the R58 seems to divide people.

Is the temperature more stable on a Dual Boiler machine? I would say 'no', or 'not necessarily'. Generally speaking, an HX or a thermosyphon machine uses mechanical engineering principles to maintain temperature, a Dual Boiler machine, electronics. Just depends how well the machine is designed. The Londinium I (which has a thermosyphon) will keep stable temperature all day long - having a big chunk of metal at the heart of the machine helps. On a lever machine pressure and temperature actually decline during the progress of the extraction - this is part of the basic design of a lever group which fans say gives it its special quality. After extraction temperature recovers very quickly.



> One last question. I have a vario grinder. Is this ok to use with a higher spec machine?


It's certainly 'ok' to use it - it will work perfectly well, but everyone will tell you that a better grinder will give better results. How much better, or how much you have to pay to get significantly better results is open to debate.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Thanks for the reply. The great thing about the vario is the size. I guess the next upgrade would be a mazzer? Am I correct in thinking that the mini is not as good as the other mazzer machines

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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The difference between the mazzer mini and the super jolly functionally is that the the sj has a bigger motor and bigger burrs and therefore grinds more efficiently and at a lower speed, the consistency of the grind on a super jolly is better than the mini, however the mini has a much smaller footprint and in the smaller grinder division is probably the best you will get. Both have the options for electronic on demand versions and with this version the mini goes up to using the sj burrs.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Do you think im looking at much difference between the vario and mazzer mini


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

MichaelSmith81 said:


> Its obvious that if you have two boilers with two separate heading elements controlling two different outputs (Steam ~124 degrees and Espresso Extraction ~94 degrees) this is going to be more accurate/stable than a boiler that does both through a HX.


 Not necessarily true, as the crucial thing is not the temperature of the water in the boiler, but the temperature of the water as it passes through the coffee. This really comes down to the design of the whole system - a mechanical thermosyphon can produce very stable temperatures.


> But the bottom line the superior machine is a dual boiler, why would they make them otherwise as there would be no reason for the manufactures to produce and sell at a higher price if it wasn't any better.


Superior - not necessarily. For instance, few would argue that the Fracino Piccino (Dual Boiler) is superior to the Fracino Cherub (HX).

I think the appeal of the Dual Boiler is the ability to adjust brew temperature more easily than on an HX machine, but I think it is misleading to suggest that a DB will have better temperature stability than an HX. People like PID controls because it enables them to tweak and fiddle; whether this necessarily leads to better coffee is another matter.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

inaboxmedia said:


> Do you think im looking at much difference between the vario and mazzer mini


Yes, the mazzer is hands down a better grinder, hence the vast difference in price, plus you can pick up great used mazzers for really good money even nearly new ones!!


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> The difference between the mazzer mini and the super jolly functionally is that the the sj has a bigger motor and bigger burrs and therefore grinds more efficiently and at a lower speed, the consistency of the grind on a super jolly is better than the mini, however the mini has a much smaller footprint and in the smaller grinder division is probably the best you will get. Both have the options for electronic on demand versions and with this version the mini goes up to using the sj burrs.


careful with this advice







the mini-E and the SJ have the same size burrs, and same rotational speed







, and i think makes the mini-E a superb home grinder


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

So what is the difference between these machines....

The mazzer min Electronic A on bella barista....Is this a different model to mini-e?



shrink said:


> careful with this advice
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

shrink said:


> careful with this advice
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please read my advice I mentioned the burrs in the advice i gave which you quoted







motor is still much better and bigger in the sj


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Guys, I imagine that most of us make one espresso at a time, or at the most, two. Very occasionally we might make 3 or more,so why get hung up about machines. Buy the one you fancy and let others haven't his great debate about single or twin, hx or dripped,organic or mechanical etc etc! 90% of the time it is not going to apply.

Keep it simple stupid!,


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

inaboxmedia said:


> So what is the difference between these machines....
> 
> The mazzer min Electronic A on bella barista....Is this a different model to mini-e?


There are basically two standards of mini, the stock one which comes with a doser has 58mm burrs the electronic doser less on demand has 64 mm burrs the electronic comes in two variants the a and b the difference is how you operate and adjust the timing settings, some prefer the buttons on the top of the Shute as per the model or or some prefer the portafilter operated button on the front of the model b, both can be adjusted very easily, both have step less micro metric grind setting. All of the minis are very capable grinders


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

I find all the mazzers confusing. especially when you don't know of the models. Im guessing looking at the pricing that I probably will not gain much upgrading the vario to the mini


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Please read my advice I mentioned the burrs in the advice i gave which you quoted
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i did read, thats the point, you said the SJ had bigger burrs







i'm suggesting thats not the case hehe

but yes the 250w vs 350w motor could make a difference. The reality is that in the home environment, i think a miniE is a fantastic grinder.

The mazzer SJ does have slightly different burrs though, with a more aggressive cutting profile. This was done out of concerns that forcing the smaller motor to grind too fine, too quickly, could cause stalling. But there are many reports of users putting in SJ burrs with absoluely no issue. In a cafe, where use could be high, it wouldnt be recommended. But for someone pulling a few shots a day, putting the better burrs into a more domestically acceptable package, will likely yeild SJ quality results, in a mini sized package


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

shrink said:


> i did read, thats the point, you said the SJ had bigger burrs
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

inaboxmedia said:


> I find all the mazzers confusing. especially when you don't know of the models. Im guessing looking at the pricing that I probably will not gain much upgrading the vario to the mini


But if you have the space going up to the sj will yield a difference.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

i think there will long be a search for a perfect home grinder. It seems the criteria would be:

-not too big

-not too noisy

-very very little grind retention

-doserless

-adjustable for both large changes, and small fine tuning

-not too messy









Some grinders give you some of this, others give you different aspects. The HG one, seems to have zero waste, very tidy and clean, but its big.

I liked the look of the Compak K10 Fresh, lovely PF holder, no mess, very fast, pretty quiet, accurate adjustements on both a large and small scale. But its grind retention looks pretty terrible!

One day, someone will design the perfect home grinder! we need an HG one with a motor


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

I would love to...I personally think they are just too big and I have already taken enough space up! I just didnt know if there were any other smaller options. But maybe the vario is the one to stick with



coffeechap said:


> But if you have the space going up to the sj will yield a difference.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Probably, especially if you are happy with it, as all the advice in the world is no substitute for experiencing and getting used to what is an already good small grinder


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

One day, someone will design the perfect home grinder! we need an HG one with a motor

Agreed but it would have to be quite!


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

shrink said:


> ... we need an HG one with a motor


The HG1 looks like a Versalab without a motor.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

shrink said:


> One day, someone will design the perfect home grinder! we need an HG one with a motor


It's called a Mazzer Robur.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mate , i'm only local (as you know) if you want a play on an Expobar (and huge Mazzer) let me know - might help your choice ; )


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## twistywizard (Sep 3, 2012)

In all fairness the SJ without a Hopper (You don't need one in a home environment) does not look too out of place in a kitchen. Foot print wise the SJ is not hugely bigger than a Mini. I will take a picture of mine later next to the Expobar.

There are also a fair amount more used SJ than Mini's as well which IMO makes them a cracking proposition over the Mini. You know you can find the extra space









Addressing comments further back as well. The difference in taste moving between 92 - 94 degrees is vast, in the cup it makes a difference where it matters. Also I can pull consistent shots all day long with little variation so the DB system must be very stable (Not saying a HX isnt!)

There are compromises with each but I feel the DB system allows some wider scope for improving what is in the cup. Maybe it is my age.... I am younger and like to have control over a numerous amount of aspects where as some people are happy to just Keep it simple. Which is fine each to their own.

You just have to look at the Barista world to see this. However the Barista Champion from last year from what I have heard from a friend who has spoken to him uses some pretty complex pressure profiling to get the results he wants in the cup. Although off on a tangent as we are now into the realm of Commercial machines the same principles apply. There are less complex machines making great coffee and more complex making great coffee as well.

Are YOU going to be happy with a HX machine? Or will you sell and try a DB machine..... If the answer is the later I would advise the DB route.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

Hi Gary, Will take you up on that. Im struggling a bit with my latte art. im sure you can offer me some tips?



garydyke1 said:


> Mate , i'm only local (as you know) if you want a play on an Expobar (and huge Mazzer) let me know - might help your choice ; )


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

RoloD said:


> It's called a Mazzer Robur.


but not really though... the HG one has a straight path for the grinds, no retention, no hopper etc. The robur by comparison, is more wasteful and doesnt distribute grinds in such a pretty fashion









the versalab M3 looks amazing, and may well be the very thing i'd want in my life, but heck, its expensive!!


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## twistywizard (Sep 3, 2012)

Once you have seen Brewtus rattling his little heart out at Gary's you will fall in love....

Ladys swoon at the size of his drip tray! More like a dog bowl.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

I think dual boiler is the route to go for. Will speak to bella barista this week.

I still think the jolly is a beast when you stick it next to the vario? The problem with the jolly is it will not fit under the kitchen units!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

inaboxmedia said:


> Hi Gary, Will take you up on that. Im struggling a bit with my latte art. im sure you can offer me some tips?


Im not sure i'm qualified on pouring but the Expobar produces good milk texture so you can show me ; )


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The nice thing about a point of view, is that we can all be right in our own way. So, here's my point of view......Joe says to Bob, Bob, that cafe we are going to open, you know, the one that serves 500 shots an hour, what machine shall we buy. thats a hard one says Bob, how about a Gaggia Classic. All the lads on the forum say they are smashing machines and well up to it. Nah, says Joe, thats about as stupid as having a Titan grinder in your kitchen to pull 3 shots a day.....

So, is their viewpoint right or wrong? The reason commercial machines are huge, is mainly for heat dispersal. The more you use it in a short period of time, the hotter it gets. The bigger the case, the bigger the burrs, that follows naturally. But, just because you have this hulking monster in your kitchen, is it actually producing anything that is better than a smaller grinder. Does RPM really matter?

The only thing that matters, is the taste in the cup. Do not be influenced by other peoples opinion which is why I am not offering an opinion as to what to buy. If I was, I would simply tell you what I HAVE bought, as obviously I think that my set up is better than everyone else's!

think what your needs are. If you gain comfort from having a grinder that is built like a brick shithouse and will last a nuclear war, then thats fine but do not mix up size and durability with what you end up drinking. If the equipment was so important, why on the whole is the stuff you but at the national chains garbage, as they have wonderful commercial grade equipment to make it with!

Here endeth todays sermon!


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

I have a Fracino C3 (rebadged Compak K3) in polished aluminium. It is very quick, quiet, easy to adjust and reasonably priced!!


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