# Newbie (ish) question



## reddays (Feb 18, 2013)

Hello all

I need your wisdom! I've had a De'longhi (icona) espresso machine for just over a year. It has now packed up and will cost more to repair than it's worth. I used it about 5 times a day and when everything went well it could make a good espresso. However it was temperamental, would intermittently leak at the seal between the portafilter and machine and would only rarely stay at full temperature for the time it took to make an espresso (usually needed 2 or 3 start/stops per drink). It already had to be replaced under warranty after about 5 months.

So now i'm in the market for a new machine and a grinder to go with it. Trouble is I'm not sure which price point to go for. I know already that I love making espresso, enjoying trying to tweak things to make it as good as possible, and get genuinely mad when the machine misbehaves/breaks







. I'm in need of something that makes very good espresso, gives predictable results and isn't likely to break every 6 months.

So my shortlist for an espresso machine is:

Gaggia Classic/Baby

Rancilio Silvia

Quick Mill Cassiopea

Quick Mill Silvano

Obviously these are very different grades of machine. But which one to get? Will the Gaggia be good enough? or will I be thinking after 3 months that I need to upgrade? If I'm going to upgrade now, what level makes sense? I am assuming there are a fair few people out there who have been through this process - what are your thoughts? Anything else you'd get instead of these?

Currently I'm stuck trying to decide and have been drinking Cafetiere coffee for too long now!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

It is always difficult, because invariably you end up being told what someone else has. In my case, thats not relevant as my machine has been upgraded to where I am now by several separate journeys!

So, The Classic is the entry level of machine. The new ones are not as good as the old ones (since Philipps took over). I personally would set yourself a budget first. A lot of people on here like the Fracino offerings, and I am a fan as well. The Silvia is better than the Classic, so they say, but if you can afford to go higher than a Suilvia, then why not do it. Whatever you buy, within a short period you will just hanker for something else..thats the way the coffee journey goes I am afraid. As soon as you have mastered your machine, you want something else, until you get to a stage where you have a twin boiler of hx machine, then the real costs start to come in. If you are handy with spanners then second hand is always an option, if not, it has not be new!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Hi Reddays. If you mainly drink espresso, the Classic and Silvia are great but the Silvia is better - bigger boiler - more steam when you want it. Downside of a single boiler like the Classic and Silvia is you have to wait for the boiler temp to rise when wanting to steam milk. Not a huge problem but can be irritating if you want to make milk based drinks more than occasionally. The Cassiopea is an interesting machine - first dual boiler sub £500 if my memory is correct. I think Bella Barista are selling it in the UK. That is praise indeed as Bella Barista are a very pukka outfit - good after sales support too which is important. I guess you have to decide your budget and go from there. A dual boiler set up offer much more convenience so if you want to have the option of making lots of milk based drinks, maybe the Cassiopea is the way to go. Do have look at Bella Barista's site or better still visit them if you can. They know what they are talking about. Finally, upgraditits is a curse albeit a fun one. Try to think ahead and consider your needs six - twelve months down the line. That way, you might save yourself some money.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Yep, as above, the budget is the primary decider..

As a tried and tested entry level espresso, then go for Gaggia Classic/Iberital MC2 combo.

This will give you good espresso, and is probably the cheapest/best "new" setup.

If you go secondhand, then you could also look at something from Fracino, Rancilio etc.

(not sure about Quickmill, but bellabarista seem to like them..)

Set a budget, then go with the best equipment you can afford..


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Check this earlier thread on a similar subject:

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?8322-Fracino-Cherub-v-Quickmill-Cassiopea-and-Silvano


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

The Systemic Kid said:


> The Cassiopea is an interesting machine - first dual boiler sub £500 if my memory is correct.


I think, strictly speaking, it is not a dual boiler as much as a dual themoblock machine - more like a double Gaggia Classic, so I doubt whether the steam power and thermal stability would be that great. As I understand it, the Fracino Piccino is still the cheapest proper dual boiler machine. But the Cassiopea is still an interesting in-between option.


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## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

as dfk41 says, decide on your budget first. the more you spend now, the less likely you will feel the need to upgrade 6 months down the line. since you use your machine a lot, i'd be tempted to stretch your budget beyond the machines you list as otherwise you may end up wishing you'd spent more and then you will end up in an upgrade cycle (which will cost you more in the end).

your choice will also partly depend on what type of coffee you tend to drink. if you only ever make espressos, this makes your choice a bit simpler in the sense that you don't need to be concerned about the steaming capabilities and associated issues. the advice most people on here will give you is don't skimp on the grinder. when you start out it's easy to be sceptical and think it can't really make that much difference, but it does.

if i were in your position and i could afford it, i'd get a rocket or a londinium. failing that, i think one of the fracinos would be a very good choice for a lot less money, but they're just not as attractive to my eye and i'd rather save up and get something that looks fantastic. the classic is a good starting point, and the silvia is also highly regarded, but i would try and stretch my budget at that point to fracino level, unless i could find a good one second hand.

as for grinders, i'd take a look at the eureka mignon or a mahlkonig vario or a second hand mazzer. you can also save money by going for the iberital mc2, but again, it doesn't look as good as other grinders and probably won't last as well either.

anyway, decide on your budget and then be prepared to spend more


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## reddays (Feb 18, 2013)

reneb said:


> anyway, decide on your budget and then be prepared to spend more


That's pretty much what started this whole dilemma. I started out expecting to spend up to £250 and am rapidly heading north of that.

Thanks all for your feedback. Really helpful. I hadn't looked into Francino until now. That's added to my list and I definitely prefer the idea of supporting a company manufacturing in Britain.



> "Finally, upgraditits is a curse albeit a fun one. Try to think ahead and consider your needs six - twelve months down the line"


Good point - this is what's leading me away from the Gaggia now as it's obvious what will happen shortly after buying it.

Time to browse www.fracino4u.com .......


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Yep. I upgraded my trusty Classic after many years excellent service and went for a Silvia. I was really pleased with it - got shots thats were better than I had experienced on my Classic. Then, I came across this forum and got introduced to a wealth of information and advice and decided to bite the bullet and go for broke. Decided to go for a machine I wouldn't want to change down the line but the hole in the wallet was considerable! Many moons ago, I recall being given some excellent advice from a hifi expert - set your budget and don't get seduced. Think we've all been there and ended up spending more than we bargained for.


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## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> set your budget and don't get seduced.


easier said than done, particularly when shiny toys are involved









just that little bit more money and i could get something so much better.

'i can resist everything but temptation'


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Yes, insidious isn't it? But I wonder if more is actually more? With hifi equipment, the relationship between incremental improvement in audio quality to additional price paid is logarithmic - you spend more and more money for less and less incremental improvements to sound quality. I wonder if the same applies to espresso machines? OK, more expensive machines have additional components on board and greater flexibility, e.g. the ability to be able to steam milk on demand, but do they actually produce better shots say than a machine costing less than £400 -450? Obviously, build quality accounts for some of the cost issue as does aesthetic design but, in the end, is more actually more?


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## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

Re hi-fi, the law of diminishing returns is certainly a factor and you generally have to spend progressively more for each subsequent improvement. but then if you listen to a £1000 stereo next to a £10k or £15k stereo, the differences are pretty clear. I found it very easy to get trapped in a cycle of regular upgrading and then realising i needed to start again after spending a fortune as i'd ended up upgrading to something i wasn't entirely happy with. and the hi-fi industry is really geared to encouraging you to upgrade.

And then of course you have various camps within hi-fi (e.g. analogue v digital, linn v naim, transistor v valve, electrostatics v coil, dedicated v multi-room systems etc.), and I guess there are similar differing camps in the world of espresso machines but perhaps less starkly contrasted. you could probably draw a lot of analogies between the two.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Yes, insidious isn't it? But I wonder if more is actually more? With hifi equipment, the relationship between incremental improvement in audio quality to additional price paid is logarithmic - you spend more and more money for less and less incremental improvements to sound quality. I wonder if the same applies to espresso machines? OK, more expensive machines have additional components on board and greater flexibility, e.g. the ability to be able to steam milk on demand, but do they actually produce better shots say than a machine costing less than £400 -450?


 It's a very good question, but I think as far as espresso machines are concerned, what you get for your money is pretty straightforward.

I'd say up to £450 you get a machine that can make decent espresso but would lack steam power and thermal stability. And you have to wait between brewing and steaming.

In the £450 to £1000 range you can get a machine that will do everything reasonably well and is easy to use. In the £1000 to £1700 range you are getting greater control (dual boiler/PID) or greater subtlety/depth of flavour (lever) - it's only in this range that a home machine can really compete with a state of the art commercial machine. If you are working with 'difficult' light roast beans, all the parameters of control become very important. With a machine which lacks thermal stability you will get good shots some of the time, just not consistently.

At every point, of course, there is also a premium to pay for style and quality of engineering. In other words, I believe you get what you pay for. Most of the machines are based on standard components and well established technology.

Certainly from my own experience there was a huge difference in the quality of shots from a 1974 Olympia Cremina and my previous PID Gaggia Classic. A greater difference than between the Cremina and the Londinium, although the Londinium does gain on depth of flavour, steam power and consistency (as well as being about a grand cheaper new). I've also found it rare to get bad shots on a lever machine - they seem inherently forgiving.

As for grinders... is a £1500 grinder 10 times better than a £150 grinder? Someone else can answer that.

I'd like to think there is less bullshit in the espresso world than the hi-fi world. I don't think there is an equivalent of serious analysis of the audio quailty of digital cables...

Mind you, you can spend a hell of a lot of money on a tamper...


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

I think in both instances it's about what quality is needed for your own requirements. There is always something more expensive that you could have instead of what you own that will be better quality, but is that actually what you need? Is your home hi-fi sufficient to fill the space in your 10x10 living room, do you need that upgrade for something designed for much larger spaces? Is your home espresso machine and home grinder able to provide the volume of drinks required or do you need that commercial alternative that is designed to do hundreds of shots every day?

Slightly more different with quality which can often be related to increasing costs but it is all relative. Can you get consistent quality shots to rival any cafe for under £1000, yes, could you get WBC standard, probably not. Is that what you are aiming for though?

At the end of the day we all have to set out what budgets we think are appropriate to ourselves, I do find that commercial equipment in the home environment is a waste of money (unless maybe second hand bargains are to be had). There is enough shiny temptation at the home equipment level to satisfy my upgraditis!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

RoloD said:


> I'd like to think there is less bullshit in the espresso world than the hi-fi world. I don't think there is an equivalent of serious analysis of the audio quailty of digital cables...
> 
> Mind you, you can spend a hell of a lot of money on a tamper...


Well put! Although, I am not sure about always getting (quality/value) what you pay for. I like Reneb's analogy to digital and analogue. In the world of espresso, the two seem to be expressed (pardon the pun) by two approaches to espresso shot heaven - the more complex, electronic route typified by the dual boiler/PID machines and the other route exemplified by the more simple lever approach. Both approaches have their fans. Personally, I came down on the side of the simpler approach as I have a feeling that keeping it simple is the more elegant solution but I am sure others might have different views.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

forzajuve said:


> At the end of the day we all have to set out what budgets we think are appropriate to ourselves, I do find that commercial equipment in the home environment is a waste of money (unless maybe second hand bargains are to be had). There is enough shiny temptation at the home equipment level to satisfy my upgraditis!


I love terms like 'prosumer' and the rest. What does it mean? In marketing hype, stick 'pro' in front of something and it immediately has added value. This sort of con obviously works - it's hard to find anything these days that isn't 'pro' something or other. But what do you mean by commercial equipment in the home environment? Don't want to guess your meaning so would be helpful if you could elaborate.


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## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

indeed, but just as with hi-fi i guess you need to have balance and set your priorities. expensive cables do actually sound quite different to each other, but you can only hear these differences in a high quality (and therefore expensive) system. you'd never spend thousands on cables in a £1k hi-fi system, and there are generally perceived views as to what proportion of your budget should go on each component, from source through to speakers. of course there are those who flout those perceived rules and call everyone else flat-earthers.

in the same way, you wouldn't spend your hard-earned on a londinium or a speedster and then team it up with a blade grinder - that would be ridiculous, but i doubt whether there are similar budgeting guidelines as for hi-fi. i'm stretching the analogy a bit, but i guess you know what i mean.


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## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

Going back to the original post, and admittedly not being familiar with all the machines, i'd go either for the gaggia or try to buy the absolute best within budget.

From everything i've heard, while the silva is a step up from the gaggia, it doesn't warrant the extra £££.

Also you can pick up a new classic for c.£150 so a change of decision on 12 months isn't going to be so expensive.

(Versus the 400 on the silva)


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## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

apologies to the op by the way, we seem to have hijacked this thread and we're waffling on (me in particular) about something he probably has no interest in









however, i think your original question can be seen in the context of other interests or pursuits. and in the end you do tend to get what you pay for, it's just a question of what you're prepared to pay and what you're trying to achieve. value for money is highly subjective and therefore largely meaningless. you might choose to spend £10 on a great hi-fi system, to which your friends might tell you you're nuts and then tell you about the £10k holiday they've just been on, or the £50k they've just spent on a car - each to his own.


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## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

i would tend to agree with danm

if you don't want to spend a huge amount now, start with the classic and save your money for a bigger upgrade than a silvia in the future. the classic is a good machine to learn on, you can tweak it a bit (steam wand, opv, pid) and it can produce decent shots. if you then want to upgrade, you haven't lost much as you can sell the classic for only a small hit on what you originally paid for it.

or, go mid-range if you can afford it, e.g. fracino. this should keep you from the upgrade curse for longer than the classic and is a considerably better machine.


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## reddays (Feb 18, 2013)

reneb said:


> apologies to the op by the way, we seem to have hijacked this thread and we're waffling on (me in particular) about something he probably has no interest in


Haha no probs, it's all relevant. It is interesting though slightly alarming to notice that I've gone from wanting a way of making drinks to having another expensive hobby. Oh well, at least I get to indulge in this one every day


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

reddays said:


> Haha no probs, it's all relevant. It is interesting though slightly alarming to notice that I've gone from wanting a way of making drinks to having another expensive hobby. Oh well, at least I get to indulge in this one every day


That's what happens when you discover all that info and knowledge on this forum. Opens up a whole new bag of questions and dilemmas!


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> But what do you mean by commercial equipment in the home environment? Don't want to guess your meaning so would be helpful if you could elaborate.


What I am getting at is that having a £1000 titan grinder in the home is overkill in terms of build and design. It is designed for a commercial environment e.g. hundreds of shots per day, taking a beasting from the staff. Of course the build quality is better than a home one but then it has to be.

I think the discrepancy comes more with grinders. An espresso machine can be greatly improved at the home level from your £400-500 machine up to a Rocket/L1 and is still suitable, you wouldn't have these in a commercial environment, yet the quality of shot is right up there. The same does not apply to grinders, where is the home grinder that can produce a top quality grind that is suitable for the home user? I don't need to grind 15g beans in 2secs flat, or have a massive hopper and doser, but I do want a consistent quality grind.

Where is the 'prosumer' grinder?

Where am I going with this............what was the question.........


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

forzajuve said:


> Where is the 'prosumer' grinder?


I agree. I was put off by the big footprint of Mazzers and others. I recall reading a thread recently by a forum user who sold his new Super Jolly as he didn't like the mess it generated. It would seem that if you want a big burr set, you end up buying, as you say, a grinder designed for commercial use. The only grinder that springs to mind which combines a big burr set and consumer use is the HG One and it's a hand grind at that! Downside is it costs a king's ransom.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

forzajuve said:


> I think in both instances it's about what quality is needed for your own requirements. There is always something more expensive that you could have instead of what you own that will be better quality, but is that actually what you need? Is your home hi-fi sufficient to fill the space in your 10x10 living room, do you need that upgrade for something designed for much larger spaces? Is your home espresso machine and home grinder able to provide the volume of drinks required or do you need that commercial alternative that is designed to do hundreds of shots every day?
> 
> Slightly more different with quality which can often be related to increasing costs but it is all relative. Can you get consistent quality shots to rival any cafe for under £1000, yes, could you get WBC standard, probably not. Is that what you are aiming for though?
> 
> At the end of the day we all have to set out what budgets we think are appropriate to ourselves, I do find that commercial equipment in the home environment is a waste of money (unless maybe second hand bargains are to be had). There is enough shiny temptation at the home equipment level to satisfy my upgraditis!


I don't believe that any consumer grinders compete with the robur or k10 in terms of taste and that is what it's about, taste, though, i'm wondering whether the hg one is bordering these two divisions now...


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> I agree. I was put off by the big footprint of Mazzers and others. I recall reading a thread recently by a forum user who sold his new Super Jolly as he didn't like the mess it generated. It would seem that if you want a big burr set, you end up buying, as you say, a grinder designed for commercial use. The only grinder that springs to mind which combines a big burr set and consumer use is the HG One and it's a hand grind at that! Downside is it costs a king's ransom.


The HG One is effectively a Robur as it sports the same conical burrs. The price of around £700 compares very favourably to the Robur which is around £2000 and not really apt for the home environment as it has quite a bit of ground retention during use.

The HG One is single dose, smells awfully good when in use, retains nothing, has a small footprint and there is a sort of homely satisfaction derived from turning that handle...

...I go into the kitchen, thinking of nothing in particular and then (out of the corner of my eye) I see that handle...

...


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

sjenner said:


> The HG One is effectively a Robur as it sports the same conical burrs. The price of around £700 compares very favourably to the Robur which is around £2000 and not really apt for the home environment as it has quite a bit of ground retention during use.
> 
> The HG One is single dose, smells awfully good when in use, retains nothing, has a small footprint and there is a sort of homely satisfaction derived from turning that handle...
> 
> ...


So run a few grams through the robur before using it









The hg one does look nice though.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

But why on earth would you want a full commercial grinder for the home? I bet if you we're to choose a new car for private use, it

Would not be a Transit van, no matter how big the payload


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Why wouldn't I want a commercial grinder if it was built better, produced a better result in the cup, would last and last etc etc.?

What use would anyone generally have for a transit van? I don't really think it's a valid comparison.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

It is perfectly valid. You are presuming that because something is built to last in a commercial environment, that it is therefore good......no........it is just built to last. That is shown by the vast array of semi/commercial grinders that are available, yet the same few names are held up as if they have biblical importance!

I respect Reiss at Londinium, and once again, I tell you that he has sold his Robur in favour of an HG One. Now, either he is stupid, or he knows something!


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

dfk41 said:


> It is perfectly valid. You are presuming that because something is built to last in a commercial environment, that it is therefore good......no........it is just built to last. That is shown by the vast array of semi/commercial grinders that are available, yet the same few names are held up as if they have biblical importance!
> 
> I respect Reiss at Londinium, and once again, I tell you that he has sold his Robur in favour of an HG One. Now, either he is stupid, or he knows something!


I'm not presuming something is good because it's designed to last in a commercial environment, I'm presuming it's good having owned it for the last few years. Don't think I haven't considered trying a hg one.

I couldn't care less what reiss has done, the only things putting me off a hg one are the mentions of static and distribution, that and I picked the k10 up for sod all.

Justify 300 for a k10 vs 800 for a new hg one.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

But you are comparing new v second hand. I do not think you will ever find an HG One for sale at £300. The fact you found a bargain makes me happy for you! The static on the HG is easily overcome and I have no distribution issues at all. The HG is sellable at a premium, whereas as you have identified by buying your bargain, the k10 is not! But, each to his own as that is what makes the world go round!


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

dfk41 said:


> But you are comparing new v second hand. I do not think you will ever find an HG One for sale at £300. The fact you found a bargain makes me happy for you! The static on the HG is easily overcome and I have no distribution issues at all. The HG is sellable at a premium, whereas as you have identified by buying your bargain, the k10 is not! But, each to his own as that is what makes the world go round!


I think you can pick up a k10 new for around 800 these days, but I may be wrong.

That would make it a far more difficult decision for me at least. I'd certainly want to try them both first.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Well, if you are ever in Newcastle, you are most welcome !


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

I guess Reiss sold the Robur as it is meant for heavy commercial use - kilos of through put so grind retention in relation to the above not really an issue. This is the price to be paid if you want a big burr set. The elegance of the HG One design was to incorporate the benefits of the massive 83mm burr set around domestic needs - through put measured in grams. Making it manually operated was a clever way of getting round the danger of over engineering the motor drive for a domestic grinder.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm not doubting that the taste quality is better on commercial grinders, that is in fact my point, why is there not a home grinder to match? Espresso machines seem to be able to do it whilst remaining suitable for the home environment. Commercial grinders have major drawbacks for home use, grind retention and space being the main issues and whilst mods can be made, that just highlights the fact that they are not suitable.

There are plenty of used commercial grinders out there that come up for


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## mookielagoo (Dec 12, 2012)

reddays said:


> Hello all
> 
> I need your wisdom! I've had a De'longhi (icona) espresso machine for just over a year. It has now packed up and will cost more to repair than it's worth. I used it about 5 times a day and when everything went well it could make a good espresso. However it was temperamental, would intermittently leak at the seal between the portafilter and machine and would only rarely stay at full temperature for the time it took to make an espresso (usually needed 2 or 3 start/stops per drink). It already had to be replaced under warranty after about 5 months.
> 
> ...


'

Hi Reddays -I too had the icona for 6 months and it packed up on me (amazon sent another one but that was shot too).. I got a classic and haven't looked back! It's tricky to get consistent repeatability - the key is to weigh the grinds (14g) get a decent tamper and a normal double basket from happy donkey and start off using bathroom scales to get the 30lb tamp pressure. The crema that i get from fresh beans with this basic kit is lovely! you realize that the white stuff that the icona produced is 'air filled foam' and not crema! I also found this forum (which has only served to feed the obsession!!) The guys on here are very helpful and there's a wealth of information...just ask away!!!Cheers

Mark


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

dfk41 said:


> Well, if you are ever in Newcastle, you are most welcome !


K10 needs a lick of paint and weighs a fair bit, but maybe, one day.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

forzajuve said:


> I'm not doubting that the taste quality is better on commercial grinders, that is in fact my point, why is there not a home grinder to match? Espresso machines seem to be able to do it whilst remaining suitable for the home environment. Commercial grinders have major drawbacks for home use, grind retention and space being the main issues and whilst mods can be made, that just highlights the fact that they are not suitable.
> 
> There are plenty of used commercial grinders out there that come up for
> 
> I still think grind retention is a total non issue personally, if you can't spare 5g of beans a day, there's something a little odd.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

RisingPower said:


> I still think grind retention is a total non issue personally, if you can't spare 5g of beans a day, there's something a little odd.


Times are hard! Those 5 grms add up!! Joking apart, fair point.


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## Nimble Motionists (Oct 22, 2012)

It'd be interesting to taste-test an OE Pharos against an HG One. Big price difference ($250 v.s. $850), wonder if it's justified.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Off topic again, but didn't realise we had so many audiophiles on the forum!

That's a whole other kind of financial pain


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

shrink said:


> Off topic again, but didn't realise we had so many audiophiles on the forum!
> 
> That's a whole other kind of financial pain


And a totally different set of stupidity, like directional cables to pass AC waveforms, so much snakeoil in audiofool land.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Indeed, I particularly enjoy the concept of an audiophile USB cable and denons multi thousand pound cat5 cable.

I believe in good kit, and to some extend good cables. But some folks take it too far.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

shrink said:


> Indeed, I particularly enjoy the concept of an audiophile USB cable and denons multi thousand pound cat5 cable.


 That's why I specifically referred to digital cables in my previous post. Believing a very expensive HDMI cable is going to improve the colour purity on your TV is the same as thinking an expensive printer cable will improve the output quality of your printer. Complete nonsense.

However, human beings are notoriously bad at comparative evaluations. Change the colour of your speaker grills or buy an expensive, chunky mains cable and the music will sound different, even though there is no objective difference. In medicine, red placebo pills are more powerful than white placebos. Placebo surgery is even more effective.

There aren't many blind, controlled tests in coffee evaluation. The only one that springs to mind was Home-Barista's (?) evaluation of freezing coffee beans which more or less proved that freezing beans (within certain parameters) caused no detectable deterioration in quality, yet a surprisingly large number of people believe their own experience proves otherwise. Personally, I think one of the major factors in what my espresso tastes like is the state of my palate - what I've just eaten or drunk, what time of day it is. The second espresso will always taste different even if objectively it is identical. What the coffee looks like (why do we insist on crema?), the type of cup, the style of the machine (how can lever delivered coffee not taste better?) - these are all factors that affect what we think we are tasting.

The human capacity for self-delusion knows no bounds.

Present company excepted, of course.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Vance Packard, in the '50s, published a seminal book called 'The Hidden Persuaders' in which, in one experiment, the same wash powder was packaged in different coloured boxes. Guess what, users reported different results according to box colour. I recall reading some time ago that coffee has many, many different constituent elements: can anyone confirm how many? So, it's not surprising there is a lot of coffee folklore passed off as 'truth' or 'science' when, in truth, it is nothing more than opinion. But it's great getting passionate about it all the same!


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## series530 (Jan 4, 2013)

RoloD said:


> That's why I specifically referred to digital cables in my previous post. Believing a very expensive HDMI cable is going to improve the colour purity on your TV is the same as thinking an expensive printer cable will improve the output quality of your printer. Complete nonsense.
> 
> However, human beings are notoriously bad at comparative evaluations. Change the colour of your speaker grills or buy an expensive, chunky mains cable and the music will sound different, even though there is no objective difference. In medicine, red placebo pills are more powerful than white placebos. Placebo surgery is even more effective.
> 
> ...


I've had no end of discussions with people about HDMI cables and goodness knows what. People just don't get the idea that a digital signal is just that and it cannot take on any other state simply because it has an extra shield or has a gold connector or is dipped in snake oil. Like so many things in life, people are seduced by people that they trust even if that trust is sometimes misplaced through salesmanship or some other mechanism.

Fool and money easily parted , and similar such sayings come to mind.

Someone I knew when I was a teenager told me that he always bought the best he could afford. In many ways, this is a good attitude to life but it can catch you out. Now, a little older and, perhaps, a little wiser, my attitude is to buy the best that I can justify. There is no point in spending over the odds and buying something of industrial grade if you only plan to use it twice a year. Likewise, there is no point in buying something which is mm accurate if you plan to use it to measure a football pitch. ..... Buy to fit the need.

I bought the Gaggia as I was new to coffee and it seemed like something above the stuff that we routinely see at Curry's and as something that I may like to use to make slightly better coffee. A year down the road and I bought my grinder. Some may disagree but I feel that it is a cut (or a grind) above the basic fare and is a reflection of the best that I can justify and a reflection of the interest in the hobby that I have developed. I could have spent more. I could have afforded to spend more, but I struggled to morally justify spending more. I fear that my Gaggia may get replaced with something a little better - a reflection of the fact that I enjoy making coffee, that I enjoy milk based drinks and the single boiler is something of an issue in this regard. It's just a question of really justifying the need to myself, identifying the right alternative purchase and convincing my wife that it is the right thing to do (which, thankfully, isn't generally that difficult).

And, yes, 20 years or so ago I spent a fortune (to me) on audio equipment. I just wish my ears are as good now as they were then. Too many hours spent in noisy environments have taken their toll. My senses can just about enjoy the virtues of decent AV equipment these days ... hence where I started my post ... HDMI cables.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

The only time I excuse the digital cable debate is when talking about the PCM connection between a transport and dac. This system unlike USB and Ethernet, has absolutely no error correction or data recovery. What's lost is lost. Very cheap and nasty coax cables can result in a minor loss of fidelity. But you needn't spend much to resolve that situation.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Where I think the audio analogy breaks down is here:

It is possible to get a great espresso out of Gaggia Classic or a Silvia. It's just a lot easier to get a consistently great espresso out of a Rocket or a Londinium.

Whereas your Sony all-in-one system is never going to sound like your Linn or Naim or Musical Fidelity set-up. Whatever cables you use.


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## series530 (Jan 4, 2013)

shrink said:


> The only time I excuse the digital cable debate is when talking about the PCM connection between a transport and dac. This system unlike USB and Ethernet, has absolutely no error correction or data recovery. What's lost is lost. Very cheap and nasty coax cables can result in a minor loss of fidelity. But you needn't spend much to resolve that situation.


too true. A rubbish cable and no correction does leave you stuffed.

What I meant to add, and forgot, is that provided components are compliant to specification, they are generally fit for the purpose... HDMI 1.3 or 1.4 being an example. Obviously, it can all fall down if the overall system trades on the weakest links throughout. Thankfully though, there's generally enough margin built in as providers would otherwise suffer the wrath of customer returns all too often.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

very true roloD. But then i'd say a gaggia classic is more like a base level NAD or Arcam system. In that its semi professional by design (e.g. full size portafilter, lots of brass etc). I'd compare a sony mini system to something more like a nespresso machine. Convenient, compact and cool to look at, but it aint never gonna make a good cup of coffee.

In the same way a well set up NAD system (heck, even cambridge audio at £100 a box) can sound really surprisingly excellent, a gaggia can make a truly great espresso. But my system will make music a lot better than my fracino makes coffee!!


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

shrink said:


> very true roloD. But then i'd say a gaggia classic is more like a base level NAD or Arcam system. In that its semi professional by design (e.g. full size portafilter, lots of brass etc). I'd compare a sony mini system to something more like a nespresso machine. Convenient, compact and cool to look at, but it aint never gonna make a good cup of coffee.
> 
> In the same way a well set up NAD system (heck, even cambridge audio at £100 a box) can sound really surprisingly excellent, a gaggia can make a truly great espresso. But my system will make music a lot better than my fracino makes coffee!!


No your system won't make music it will reproduce it, after sending all the original signals in the recording studio down far far cheaper cables than any audiophool ones and be reproduced in the studio control room again with non snakeoil speaker cables or amps. So please please tell me how all your fancy schmancy cables etc "improve" the sound and how much of it is you listening to your hifi not the music and fooling yourself into believing its better no matter how much gold plated stuff it contains. I work in the business of professionally reproducing music for people to hear and my degree is in audio engineering and inside the business so much fun is poked at people spending huge fortunes on hifi gear and being convinced they can hear how much better it is. I guess the parallel in the coffee world is people who spend a fortune on their setup and go all scientific about it and concentrate more on the process of making the coffee rather than drinking and enjoying it.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Oh I'm very aware that a system can only take less away, from the original audio, not somehow improve it. I'm also not an advocate of silly cables. But I do like a nice system capable of sensible dynamic contrast, Decent levels of resolution and useful frequency bandwidth.


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

I suppose some people do enjoy the science side of coffee. Nothing wrong with that, even if it involves people buying professional equipment which is deemed by some as overkill for the consumer environment.

My HiFi is overkill (modded Quad 405-2 driving Rogers LS5/9 loudspeakers) but I absolutely love listening to music through it.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I think it's easy to get carried away in any hobby. Be it hifi, cameras, coffee, cars etc. I'm guilty of pretty much all of these









However I do feel that sometimes on this forum, people get far more excited about weighing things, measuring things and vacuum sealing things, than they do about just having a cup of coffee









At one point my hifi obsession reached a pinnacle and one day I just looked across my room and could not justify the. £20-30k of kit that was staring at me. So it all got sold. It bought me a decent replacement system, a car, a MacBook, a holiday and cleared my credit card!

Now I'm happy tio listen to a competent but more modest system, while sipping a coffee that I didn't measure or weigh


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## series530 (Jan 4, 2013)

rodabod said:


> I suppose some people do enjoy the science side of coffee. Nothing wrong with that, even if it involves people buying professional equipment which is deemed by some as overkill for the consumer environment.
> 
> My HiFi is overkill (modded Quad 405-2 driving Rogers LS5/9 loudspeakers) but I absolutely love listening to music through it.


Green with envy... Lovely kit - the friend to whom I referred earlier had the quad 33 405 combination together with the electrostats. I always wanted something similar but stopped well short of that .


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## friz (Oct 30, 2013)

nespresso for ease of use!


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