# Dialing Rave Italian Job



## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

I am having a bit of difficult time dialing these beans. I am 8 days from roasting date so this could be the problem. Equipment is Gaggia Classic, Mignon, no opv mod yet, gaggia double basket. Machine is most of the time on so it is at temp. I have tried with both 17 and 18 grams. The problem is that after I press the brew button, coffee starts pouring after 10 seconds and then comes really fast. If I go finer then it just won't come out or come extremely slowly. How can I decrease the time coffee appears after I press the brew button (Rao suggest 3-5 seconds when no pre infusion) and also make the pour slower?


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## CallumT (Aug 23, 2013)

Might just be loads of crema due to the robusta, weigh the output. If you were making a cake you wouldn't simply guess what 200g of flour looked like - should be same with espresso


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Could it be your grind it too fine ( slow pour at star )

you are then getting channeling from uneven coffee distribution in your pf , it gushing out?

So are you using a spouted or naked pf ?

8 days past roast shouldn't be effecting the beans , unless your storing them in some kind of bonkers way ?

Coarsen grind. Look at prep ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Oh yeah and as callum says whats the output weight wise


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

You can also try a slightly finer grind but with a very light tamp, level the grounds in the PF and then just press down to level the surface, it should stop it choking the machine but produce a slower pour.

You can also try a slight pre-infusion, start the machine for 3-4 seconds, allow the puck to soak for another few seconds then start the pour off again. I've only ever had mixed results doing this, and sometimes get a 'squirter' but its worth a crack.


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

I am out, I will answer later but more info: output is around 20g at 26 seconds. Huge crema like 70%, first time I have seen so much.


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

CallumT said:


> Might just be loads of crema due to the robusta, weigh the output. If you were making a cake you wouldn't simply guess what 200g of flour looked like - should be same with espresso


Can you explain more? Not sure I got it


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

You might be overloading the Gaggia double - an Italian double is about 14g IIRC


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## CallumT (Aug 23, 2013)

Charris,

Robusta just tends to create a lot of crema, which is manly gas so doesn't actually weigh much but makes shots look like there extracted to the right ish amount volume wise. Weighing output eliminates all this.

The latter part is just you wouldn't make a cake without scales.

18g to 20g in 26s is quite tight, Jeebsy mentions a good point about basket size and bad distribution / tamp can lead to channeling which means water isn't passing and extracting through the puck as it should


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Could it be your grind it too fine ( slow pour at star )
> 
> you are then getting channeling from uneven coffee distribution in your pf , it gushing out?
> 
> ...


Original pf, waiting for my naked one. Beans are stored in a original bad in a cupboard. I will try coarser.

I am not sure about my dosing, distribution and tamping. I will solve the tamping part with the Espro tamper I have ordered. Dosing and distribution I try to follow Rao's instructions but I have no other guidance.

The crema is massive, sometimes even 90%. I will experiment with 14g and 15g, should I still go for a 60% extraction?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

A naked pf will reveal any issues with your distribution and help you correct them


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

I would say look at your technique , I have found the Italian job to a very forgiving blend, should be real easy to dial in, try a 1-1.6 ratio you should be ok.

If you can post up a video clip of your prep and your extraction, people will be able to work out whats going on for you.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Sound advice from all, I'd do a clip of your shot and shot prep and post it to see if we can help.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

If it's a standard Non pressured basket then 15g dose is a good starter with a Classic and a Mignon. Aim for approx 24g output in 25 secs.

10 secs is fairly normal for nothing to come out with a Classic with a spouted PF.

It took me an age to get it right even with a Mignon and a Classic. Great grinder btw, does clump but stirring help.


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## JakeBarnes (Nov 23, 2013)

I'm working through a few kgs of Italian Job on a Gaggia Classic (PIDed) and am pretty much getting what I'm looking for.

16 grams in the standard double basket, flow starting about 5 seconds in, nothing close to gushers, extracting for a total of around twenty to twenty five seconds.

Haven't been weighing output, sorry, should be doing that, but it looks like around 1.5 oz in each of the 2 oz cups I place under the spouts.

I'm not getting excessive crema. Crema is mahogony-colored as it should be, dominant note is dark chocolate, not much else. Italian Job isn't subtle, though maybe I'm missing more with my technique.

Works great in milk.

I found that until I PIDed my Gaggia I just couldn't get tight temperature control. Now I'm very happy with the results.


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Ok i am almost there. Some nice shots at 15g to 23g for 22 seconds. I will pull more shots later.

The ratio above is a ristretto (as per Andy's chart) at 65%, what is the procedure to make a lighter shot,i.e ratio at 50% for regular espresso or even 40% for a lungo? Is it merely to let the shot run for a longer time at the same grinding setting, or do i need to adjust grind or dosage? Also all beans can be "adjusted" for these ratios or some beans are suitable for a specific ratio e.g only for ristretto?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Coarsen the grind would help so say 16 g into 32 g


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

charris said:


> Ok i am almost there. Some nice shots at 15g to 23g for 22 seconds. I will pull more shots later.
> 
> The ratio above is a ristretto (as per Andy's chart) at 65%, what is the procedure to make a lighter shot,i.e ratio at 50% for regular espresso or even 40% for a lungo? Is it merely to let the shot run for a longer time at the same grinding setting, or do i need to adjust grind or dosage? Also all beans can be "adjusted" for these ratios or some beans are suitable for a specific ratio e.g only for ristretto?


I wouldn't worry about what it's called, and just make what you enjoy.

But different beans work better extracted differently.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

RagingMammoth said:


> I wouldn't worry about what it's called, and just make what you enjoy.
> 
> But different beans work better extracted differently.


Absolutely but If you want to have a different taste from ristretto then coarsen the grind


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## frustin (Feb 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> If it's a standard Non pressured basket then 15g dose is a good starter with a Classic and a Mignon. Aim for approx 24g output in 25 secs.


I've been going with 15g dose and 44g for a double. I must be way off.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

frustin said:


> I've been going with 15g dose and 44g for a double. I must be way off.


Way off ! Make your grind a little finer , small adjustments at a time.


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## frustin (Feb 10, 2013)

15g dose, 24g pull, over 25secs. ok, and thats a double?

also is that 25secs from when the first of the coffee appears? or from the moment the switch is pressed?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Moment you press the switch.


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## frustin (Feb 10, 2013)

Just so I'm clear: thats 10 secs waiting for coffee to start coming out of the filter, then 15secs to fill to 24g?

in which case bugger! i have to go and redial again. i thought it was 25secs from when coffee starts coming out of the filter.

also, when i make a standard americano from this, am i still using 24g in a normal mug? Seems a bit light, wont it be watered down too much?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Its all bench mark figures, don't get hung up on them.

Aim for them and see what it tastes like.

Americano is either a single or double, with then hot water up to 16oz i think, but again, its down to your tastes!


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

frustin said:


> Just so I'm clear: thats 10 secs waiting for coffee to start coming out of the filter, then 15secs to fill to 24g?
> 
> in which case bugger! i have to go and redial again. i thought it was 25secs from when coffee starts coming out of the filter.


The 10s is quite long, the ideal is 3-5 (as per Rao's book) BUT it is very difficult to achieve on the Classic.

25-30s is the ideal time from the time you press the button.

Just go a bit finer and you would be fine. Stop the brewing when you are 2g away from your desired liquid weight.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

frustin said:


> 15g dose, 24g pull, over 25secs. ok, and thats a double?
> 
> also is that 25secs from when the first of the coffee appears? or from the moment the switch is pressed?


Simplify things - you are brewing by both ratio & time. If you are aiming for 24g at 25 seconds what do you do if you only have 20g at 25 seconds?


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## frustin (Feb 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Simplify things - you are brewing by both ratio & time. If you are aiming for 24g at 25 seconds what do you do if you only have 20g at 25 seconds?


start again. make it more coarse. depending on how hard i tampered it.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Just change one, either lighten the tamp or change the grind...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Perhaps wait until you get your 24g, taste it, then make the adjustment?

20g from 15g is a 75% ratio, or 1:1.3333. This may not be easy to get a decent level of extraction with, in other words, unless everything is perfect, you will most likely underextract at this ratio (pushing more water through the puck is the only way to increase extraction at this point)...if you then correct by grinding coarser, to hit your time parameter, you will be further/still underextracting.


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## frustin (Feb 10, 2013)

well, it's taking 13secs to start to flow (i'm taping very lightly). Then I let it pour until i have 22g, turn off and it carries on until 24g @ 25secs. I put this is in a standard coffee mug (12oz), fill with hot water. It tastes a bit weak.

I cant believe that 22g is considered a double shot. I cant need to use 30g of coffee to make a decent cup of americano do i?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

There isn't any hard and set rules to the extraction, try and extract your coffee a little bit long if you wish and if you think it will bring more flavour to your americano. A 1.6 ratio in 25-30 secs for IJ is a good starting point to aim for. But from what I have found its quite a forgiving blend and you can adjust your size and type of extraction to suit with how the your coffee tastes.

As most will say how does it taste?

Make small adjustments and you should be able to find the coffee you are looking for.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

frustin said:


> well, it's taking 13secs to start to flow (i'm taping very lightly). Then I let it pour until i have 22g, turn off and it carries on until 24g @ 25secs. I put this is in a standard coffee mug (12oz), fill with hot water. It tastes a bit weak.
> 
> I cant believe that 22g is considered a double shot. I cant need to use 30g of coffee to make a decent cup of americano do i?


A large proportion of coffee extraction issues revolve around folk trying to fill a certain sized cup/mug/carafe. For espresso & pourover you have to lose the notion that mixing a certain weight of coffee with a certain weight of water ensures a tasty result...it will, but only by sticking to a ratio & tweaking the level of extraction by grind. It's not like making a glass of squash, or a cup of hot chocolate & just diluting the drink, level of extraction drives the sour>sweet>bitter balance.

A double shot is any drink produced from a double basket load of coffee, it might be 15g, it might be 75g, or anywhere in between - it's right when it's not bitter, sour, or too pungent/intense. Use the machine to pull a shot with a balanced flavour, then (as you are doing) dilute if you need to stretch out the drink.

So you brewed your Americano with 15g & filled a 12oz mug...let's say you had 300-ish g of coffee at the end: 15/300 = 0.05, or 5%. That is weak (& would be even weaker if you crammed more water in the mug), brewed coffee might typically be 6.3% to 7.5%, I like it often around 7%. So your coffee tasted weak because you added too much water, 300g of coffee would require a dose of 21g by my reckoning - easier to make your Americanos a little smaller (15:210)? How was the flavour regarding bitter/sour (this is the bit we fix at the machine, during the shot pull)?


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## frustin (Feb 10, 2013)

I understand what you're saying it makes sense.

21g and 24g of pour over 25secs?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I doubt you'll fit 21g in the basket unless you have a triple basket, you really need to leave a mm or two between the screen & the puck, this largely dictates basket capacity. Do a dry run, fill & tamp the PF, place something (coin) 1-2mm thick on top of the puck, put it in the group & lock in, then remove it & see if you have an imprint of the coin in the puck. If yes, down dose a shade & record. If no, try a slightly bigger dose.

When you have the dose set, look at brew ratio. Typically this might be between 1:1.5 to 1:2. A commonly suggested ratio is 1:1.6...if you are always going to make Americanos/longer drinks, then it might make sense for you to brew at ratios at the longer end (1:2 or maybe even a little longer), as you're maybe not looking at the highly concentrated, thicker mouthfeel type shots? Aim for a ratio that allows you to taste the shot itself, prior to dilution, so you can evaluate/try again before being disappointed with the final drink?

So, let's say you find 17g is a good match to your basket, aim for 34g out (1:2 - and stick to that ratio, adjusting grind to steer the flavour balance), when the shot tastes good, top up the mug to 240g total (for example).


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

frustin said:


> I understand what you're saying it makes sense.
> 
> 21g and 24g of pour over 25secs?


Essentially yes but you can also just wait until your desired weight is achieved even if that takes longer than 25 seconds but if this delivers a taste you like it doesn't matter how long it takes. You can also try adding less water to the espresso, as adding around 11 oz of water does sound like it will really dilute your coffee too much. I've recently been pulling shots at around 1:1.9 or more over 35- 40 seconds with some delicious results, once you get your head around ratios and weights you can experiment all you want to achieve the tastes you desire, no-one will come along and smack you on the wrists for stepping outside what is after all simply a starting guideline.


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## frustin (Feb 10, 2013)

"really dilute your coffee too much"

I know it's madness, but when i had the Signature Blend, i was using 15g in 44g, the strength was fine in a normal coffee mug (a 90's bart simpson job







) and tasted good.

I've tried 17g at 34g, it's certainly stronger than the 15g at 24g. I've made the grind a little bit coarser because it was taking about 14secs to start pouring in my classic.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

frustin said:


> "really dilute your coffee too much"
> 
> I know it's madness, but when i had the Signature Blend, i was using 15g in 44g, the strength was fine in a normal coffee mug (a 90's bart simpson job
> 
> ...


Well a regular coffee mug is 8oz, not 12oz, leaving a little room to avoid spillage might see 220g in there, 15/220 = 6.8% (within typical range). It can be very tricky diluting coffee down without scales, or adding a few drips, tasting, adding a few more.



frustin said:


> "I've tried 17g at 34g, it's certainly stronger than the 15g at 24g. I've made the grind a little bit coarser because it was taking about 14secs to start pouring in my classic.


Adjust grind based on the flavour, as long as your shots aren't under 20seconds, or much over 40seconds from hitting the button. You can't see what is happening in the spouted PF, there could be a few seconds of gooey drips collecting before you see anything actually come out the spouts.

Coffee strength is also a tricky thing to describe/convey. Most people on this forum would assume by 'strength' you mean concentration (parts dissolved coffee/water), assuming a reasonable level of extraction there should be virtually no overlap in terms of concentration between 1:2 (17:34 weaker) and 1:1.6 (15:24 stronger). However a bigger dose can give more mouthfeel (possibly perceived as strength), a higher extraction level can taste more bitter which some folk perceive as strength. When you dilute down, yes, the 17g dose will become a higher proportion of a given Americano weight & make the final beverage more concentrated.

Apologies if I'm making this look complicated, it's not my fault, honest, it *is* actually quite complicated if you want to be consistent. But breaking it down & using scales will help you get there

Really focus on the flavour balance, was there a drying bitterness, smokey flavours, more caramelly/burnt sugar, pithy citrus peel, tart sharpness, sourness, honey-like or ripe fruity sweetness?

For a sanity check, perhaps try making a cafetiere with the beans, medium grind, at the kind of ratio you will be drinking it at (17g of grinds, 295g water), leave it 4 minutes, sink any grinds that are still floating, don't plunge & keep the plunger above the brew (hold in place so it doesn't fall out) taste a little (I'd pour off the very top layer, it will be oily/scummy). Don't drink the whole lot in one go, try a bit every few minutes as it develops & cools, see if there are any flavours you can pick out/like, note them down & use them as a guide to your Americano making.

Or continue as you are, but be sure to taste the espresso before adding more water & report back with finding & details.


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## darren_85 (Jul 7, 2014)

For what it's worth, this is my first week using the Italian job. I have found is "weak" and blamed my equipment and lack of skill! However as the beans have aged they have definitely improved and right now I am thoroughly enjoying my final cup. After the first two days I settled on using a small cup rather than a standard mug to make my Americano and whilst I prefer a larger cup, the taste is much more concerntrated. I am tempted to get another bag but not use it for a few days. Do u recommend anything stronger OP?


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

darren_85 said:


> For what it's worth, this is my first week using the Italian job. I have found is "weak" and blamed my equipment and lack of skill! However as the beans have aged they have definitely improved and right now I am thoroughly enjoying my final cup. After the first two days I settled on using a small cup rather than a standard mug to make my Americano and whilst I prefer a larger cup, the taste is much more concerntrated. I am tempted to get another bag but not use it for a few days. Do u recommend anything stronger OP?


How many days did you left them to rest. They need 10+ days.


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## frustin (Feb 10, 2013)

10+ days from when they were roasted? about 2


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## darren_85 (Jul 7, 2014)

charris said:


> How many days did you left them to rest. They need 10+ days.


I started using them 2 days from roast! Oops! They are now all gone but lovely at 9 days!


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

2 days for espresso is too soon for almost all roasters. Rave beans is very well know that they need a long rest. The Italian Blend I am working through now became good after day 9, I started using it for testing from day 6.


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## frustin (Feb 10, 2013)

i've made the grind a bit more coarse still. Added 18g with 34g water, and 3/4 of my mug full. Tastes better.

I did try the initial espresso and it had a citrus tang to it.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Good news that your getting something that you like better, "citrus tang" if sharp/tart may mean you have scope to grind finer?


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## frustin (Feb 10, 2013)

finer would mean i'd be getting +14 seconds before pour. :S Tamping lighter? I dont tamp heavy, how light can i tamp? very very lightly, not at all?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tamp the same way all the time. Carry on as you are in that respect.

As long as you are getting your target weight in the cup at 30s (+/- 10s), go by taste. There's no mention of citrus in the Rave description (I haven't tried it yet), so I wonder whether this characteristic you find is down to underextraction? If so, grinding finer will help extract further, balancing the flavour, maybe down dosing a tad too? If you like what you're getting now though, you don't have a 'problem' & may not be in a rush to abandon your happy place? ;-)


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

An espro tamper has helped me a lot on consistency. I have not found any citrus taste in the rave IB.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Citrus = Sour??


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## frustin (Feb 10, 2013)

I'm there! 17g 34-35g water, 3/4 fill the mug.

My first cup this morning is lush.


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

Just picked up on this thread. Had my first sampling of Italian Job today. I have an identical set-up and managed to get it pretty much bang on from the off. Don't know if it was beginners luck, but as you will know, the atmospheric conditions are playing havoc when trying to dial in. I have suffered with Limini Rainforest blend recently. It has been all over the place


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## majnu (Jan 31, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Coarsen the grind would help so say 16 g into 32 g


Sorry for sounding dense but what does that mean please?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

majnu said:


> Sorry for sounding dense but what does that mean please?


Sorry that post is made up of hideous jargon , ill break it down as best i can.









Make the grind of the coffee coarser... (The particle size of each grind bigger by adjusting the burrs)

Dose (put) 16g of coffee in to the portafilter. Weight it.

Then weigh the output ( the coffee liquid) using scales and aim to get 32g of weight of coffee out ( ignore volume of the coffee go for weight only)


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