# Article: Introducing The RAFINO - Coffee Grind Refining System



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

You can view the page at http://coffeeforums.co.uk/content.php?427-Introducing-The-RAFINO-Coffee-Grind-Refining-System


----------



## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

So if it could be attached to a dosing mechanism with agitated plates that channels over and undersized particles to the side .. it could be good on a cheapish grinder ?


----------



## Toby-IOM (Aug 8, 2012)

I just watched the video and I must say it looks like an innovative yet simple idea. The chaps look as though they certainly have a passion for what they are doing, thats for sure.

My one and only reservation would be for the amount of wastage that the user (us) would suffer. However, if it gives you a fantastic coffee, maybe the waste would be justified?


----------



## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

I'm going to give it a fling. Well assuming it gets funded. Seems a logical idea.


----------



## Toby-IOM (Aug 8, 2012)

Has there been any mention of price points yet, @Dallah?


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

$95 Canadian i think


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Cheapest is 35 CND for the two sieve (400 & 800) sieves.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Factoring in shipping to UK, the 400/800 combo comes in at around £26.00. Worth a punt.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Toby-IOM said:


> I just watched the video and I must say it looks like an innovative yet simple idea. The chaps look as though they certainly have a passion for what they are doing, thats for sure.
> 
> My one and only reservation would be for the amount of wastage that the user (us) would suffer. However, if it gives you a fantastic coffee, maybe the waste would be justified?


There shouldn't be a lot of wastage. You don't have to discard the fines & boulders. You can regrind the boulders, whilst setting the grinder coarser to minimise fines.

For example, a good grinder set to ~570um median would have something like 60-70% fall outside of the 400-800um sieves. With Rafino you could set the grinder coarser (giving less below 400um) then regrind the boulders and halve what was originally outside the range.

For immersions, you might only want to isolate/regrind the boulders & keep all the fines?

You can choose what you lose or keep. Even if you keep it all, other people with the same sieves as you can compare grind settings by what weight lands in each sieve.

I don't regrind at the minute & have dialled in a regular kitchen sieve & my grinder to lose the biggest 10-15% for Sowden brews... the brews taste better and it's a relatively small proportion I lose, when you look at those huge chunks in the sieve, you really don't feel like putting them back in (whole). It also helps keep things consistent as grind setting drifts with time/use & even with bean. I hate wasting beans & tend to use everything up, but I'd rather lose a little of the ground weight than keep it all in & a whole brew suffer.

There are possibilities & benefits beyond the intended use.


----------



## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

£115 CDN for the full set of sieves (called Barista) including shipping to UK. CDN is in the dumper and is unlikely to regain strength unless the price of oil goes back up. Oil going up is very unlikely with sections against Iran being lifted and Saudi would rather lose on the price as opposed to market share.


----------



## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Dallah said:


> £115 CDN for the full set of sieves (called Barista) including shipping to UK. CDN is in the dumper and is unlikely to regain strength unless the price of oil goes back up. Oil going up is very unlikely with sections against Iran being lifted and Saudi would rather lose on the price as opposed to market share.


Canadian Pounds...?









It seems like I was thinking of USD, so it's cheaper than I previously posted. My bad!


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

I've taken a punt..... Should be entertaining anyway, as long as it gets funded and the 'reward' is actually produced (I've backed a few that I've lost everything on!).


----------



## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

PPapa said:


> Canadian Pounds...?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Canadian dollars. At today's exchange rate the $115 CDN is £61 GBP


----------



## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

MrShades said:


> I've taken a punt..... Should be entertaining anyway, as long as it gets funded and the 'reward' is actually produced (I've backed a few that I've lost everything on!).


I'm hopeful as the manufacturering is not all that difficult or cutting edge. Just a new and better application of current capability.


----------



## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Dallah said:


> Canadian dollars. At today's exchange rate the $115 CDN is £61 GBP


Yeah I was just making fun of £XX CDN notation.


----------



## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

Didn't even notice. Damn autocorrect


----------



## ShortShots (Oct 2, 2013)

I'm certainly intrigued, might give it a punt


----------



## jimbocz (Jun 5, 2015)

I'm really curious and I've got some questions for the knowledgeable--

What are people's opinions on if this will make my £150 grinder taste like a £1000 grinder? Is consistent size the only thing?

If I was always grinding espresso for the same machine, would I always want the same size sieve? What size would that be?

I'm willing to fund the Kickstarter but if that fails or I'm impatient, seems like I could get a sieve that would work the same from a lab supply. Has anyone tried this?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

A £1000 grinder, or even a £2000 grinder makes a grind distribution. This means that at any setting you will have some very tiny particles under say 50um and some big particles. The better the grind distribution, the smaller the relative proportions these small particles & boulders become.

With sieving, you can remove parts of the distribution, it's a different ball-game.

I wouldn't be trying to remove fines from espresso grind personally, maybe aim for the boulders, these might be above 500um to 900um depending on your grinder & what you are aiming for. Perger suggested sieving out anything over 500um.

Lab supply sieves are much more expensive than Rafino, a single 3" micron sieve is around £50 plus VAT (about $95 Canadian).

I found some sized chef's sieves at about £30 each, but they're huge (20 & 30cm)


----------



## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

I think I will keep an eye in this thread and see what folk think if and when the receive their investment rewards.

If they make that much difference then I can always invest in a set post-launch, but it doesn't really fit with my faff-free coffee philosophy so gut feeling is that they are not for me.

When it comes down to it I am really not that committed enough to go chasing tiny incremental gains, but hats off to those that are - even more so if they can actually tell the difference.


----------



## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

I'm in


----------



## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

NickdeBug said:


> When it comes down to it I am really not that committed enough to go chasing tiny incremental gains, but hats off to those that are - even more so if they can actually tell the difference.


Did you buy an R120 or did I dream it?


----------



## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

jlarkin said:


> Did you buy an R120 or did I dream it?


Yup









and it was purely down to laziness/convenience

I like trying difference beans and single-dosing without going the Heath Robinson doser route limits the choice somewhat.

Purely from an ease of use point of view the increment was huge


----------



## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

25% funded in 2 days. Looks like it will be a go'er


----------



## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

I was in on the $35 before they all went and so far have been fortunate with the kickstarter things that I have opted for. They have quite a target, though.


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Nearly 50% funded already - looking promising


----------



## prophecy-of-drowning (Mar 18, 2016)

looks good - means you could use a cheap grinder and get expensive grinder results...

but

1) why do they need $55,000 by Fri, Apr 15 2016 7:00 am EDT to get this started? Lot of money / short time frame.

2) what part of this is patentable?


----------



## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

prophecy-of-drowning said:


> looks good - means you could use a cheap grinder and get expensive grinder results...
> 
> but
> 
> ...


1. It seems the crowd funding way to have a relatively short period that they're backable for, but that might just be the ones I've seen *I'm certainly no expert in that*. The amount could be for a few reasons that I could speculate - maybe the manufacturer they're hoping to use had a minimum order quantity or they just thought it was a small-ish margin and only worth doing over a certain volume or any other reason.

2. why is that important apart from if you're looking to invest in the company?


----------



## jimbocz (Jun 5, 2015)

The reason I didn't give them any backing is that it looks like the right size filter for espresso is 300 gubbins and the reward units don't go that small. Happy to hear if I've got this wrong but the 300 came from the comments on the page


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jimbocz said:


> The reason I didn't give them any backing is that it looks like the right size filter for espresso is 300 gubbins and the reward units don't go that small. Happy to hear if I've got this wrong but the 300 came from the comments on the page


300um would be around a lot of folks median grind size for espresso, in other words you'd be sieving out half your grind. To sieve out the boulders might need 350-650um sieves depending on grind/grinder, 400-600 (maybe bigger in some cases) would probably work?


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Now over 85% funded - looks like this will happen.

I can't wait to see what the stretch goals will be.


----------



## jtldurnall (Mar 16, 2015)

Worth a punt. I'm hopping it will remove some of the sludge from my French Press.

Anyone see when they're expecting to ship? I can't find it on the site...


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Delivery due in August 2016

Click here and scroll to the bottom of the page for the full timeline


----------



## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Just backed this for the 8 sieve version. Feels to me like its worth a punt and it doesn't seem to be that much money when compared to what I've spent on other coffee gadgets. Hopefully if it pays off it'll make some good differences to cup refinement. I've toyed with the idea of buying sets of lab sieves before but was put off by cost, this seems to be a nice alternative. Anyone have an idea of how much shaking you might have to do to separate everything out?


----------



## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Any idea what effect all the sieving will have on the volatiles from the coffee?

I have been doing some work with one of the big producers of coffee (of the jar variety) and agitation is something that they try an minimise after a certain point in their process line as lost volatiles have a significant impact on aroma in the cup.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

unoll said:


> Anyone have an idea of how much shaking you might have to do to separate everything out?


At present I sieve for 4min-ish, as the kettle boils. Historically the standard was 5 min, but I guess it'll depend on the practicalities of your routine?


----------



## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

MWJB said:


> At present I sieve for 4min-ish, as the kettle boils. Historically the standard was 5 min, but I guess it'll depend on the practicalities of your routine?


I think I can deal with 4-5 minutes of shaking. Like you mention, I'll just do it while the kettle boils. If I'm in a hurry I'll just not bother, although I usually like to take my time anyway.

I like the idea of using the sieves to experiment to see how different particle size ranges effect flavour. Maybe I'll get into doing cupping comparing the 3 different size ranges with a view to getting a better understanding of effects on flavour or figuring out the sweet spots for particular coffees given a set time and start temp.

I wonder how long it will be till we start seeing the rafino in a competition environment. I've seen lab sieves before so perhaps it won't be too long.



unoll said:


> Just backed this for the 8 sieve version. Feels to me like its worth a punt and it doesn't seem to be that much money when compared to what I've spent on other coffee gadgets. Hopefully if it pays off it'll make some good differences to cup refinement. I've toyed with the idea of buying sets of lab sieves before but was put off by cost, this seems to be a nice alternative. Anyone have an idea of how much shaking you might have to do to separate everything out?


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I'm backing this, however it does strike me as somewhat wasteful, although that being said, playing around with different sizes and amounts will be fun


----------



## jtldurnall (Mar 16, 2015)

CoffeeJohnny said:


> I'm backing this, however it does strike me as somewhat wasteful, although that being said, playing around with different sizes and amounts will be fun


I couldn't agree more. Won't be using it daily, but for experimenting with a new bean it looks like a fun toy.


----------



## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

I'm excited about this but slightly apprehensive. What if brews are suddenly miles better? This is going to add on some time to the whole coffee making process of it turns out that there's no going back!


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Looks like The RAFINO coffee grind refining system is about to get funded with 18 days to go!

I'm looking forward to seeing what stretch goals will be introduced - maybe more sieve inserts in smaller micron sizing for Turkish / espresso grind, or more colours / material choices.

Roll on August for the first anticipated deliveries.

It's not too late to back them at an earlybird price by using the link below.

http://2lzldc4B.kckb.st


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Wooo! Successfully funded! There might be an influx of further pledges now that people know production is going to go ahead.


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

So who here backed this prior to the funding goal being reached? Shame all the $35 slots are now gone, at that price think I'd have gone for this.


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

The link was clicked resulting in 11 pledges by CFUK members so far.

I do not have the stats as who these were, and wouldn't disclose if I did.

But am happy to put my hands up and say I did - I went for the barista version.

I think this will be an exciting product to use and a good training aid also.


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Presumably the $90 price for The Barista is in CAD? Equates to approximately £47.70 excluding shipping unless that's included outside of Canada and the U.S.?


----------



## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Think it was $15 for the shipping but that's from memory. I also went Barista but off the original link that was shared, so don't think I'm one of the 11 unless it's traffic from cfuk rather than that link.


----------



## cricketer (Mar 20, 2016)

I went for it too (Barista option) , it looks like a nice bit of kit...


----------



## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> I'm excited about this but slightly apprehensive. What if brews are suddenly miles better? This is going to add on some time to the whole coffee making process of it turns out that there's no going back!


Agree! There are a number of things I said I wouldn't do because I thought it was too much bother or too expensive, e.g. bottled water, but on tasting the results suddenly you can't go back


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I backed it, just out of curiosity, if this can indeed improve the coffee that what we consider a mediocre grinder can achieve then this is a good thing as it could open up a whole new world for many. I am really interested in how much waste this generates and how that will impact on the overall cost for comparison with better grinders


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> I backed it, just out of curiosity, if this can indeed improve the coffee that what we consider a mediocre grinder can achieve then this is a good thing as it could open up a whole new world for many. I am really interested in how much waste this generates and how that will impact on the overall cost for comparison with better grinders


I think looking at this as a way to improve grinder performance, relative to other grinders for brewed, is the tip of the iceberg. By sieving out target areas you are making an abnormal distribution, that even really good burr grinders can't achieve. For instance, Nordic (ECBC) drip grind & the Rafino 400-800um set have a similar median grind (about 600um give or take). But in the case of the Rafino there would be essentially nothing outside these sizes making it into the brewer, the unsieved grind, from a good burr grinder would have about 30% falling outside these sizes, right down to a few um & up to maybe 1200um.

It can potentially improve performance for even really good grinders.

They're saying you can get wastage down to 10% of the ground weight (1.6g discarded from a 16g dose), I suspect for immersion you won't need to discard much at all, regrind the boulders & use everything. Plus there's the possibility of doing a quick test grind (even if you discard nothing) then relaying to each other how much gets trapped in each sieve/pan, to calibrate grind settings.


----------



## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm in.


----------



## Asgross (Jun 14, 2015)

I backed it too it's my first Kickstarter

I'm sure entry level grinders like mine (sage), are likely to get the most benefit

As for making the whole process longer -on days when I'm not working I think it will make the coffee brewing more enjoyable

On days when I'm running late for work hopefully the better tasting coffee will make it worthwhile


----------



## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

I just bought one of these too. Looks like a really elegant idea! I'm hoping for it to be an interesting game changer along the lines of the ek43 aero press filter in the portafilter I now do regularly. Looking forward to people breaking out their refractometers on these!


----------



## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

alexferdi said:


> I just bought one of these too.


Hopefully you're aware anyway and it's just phraseology but you haven't technically bought one (just in case you weren't aware). You've backed them and the reward may be that you get a sieve in return, if they're able to make it happen.

Happy to be corrected if that's not a good summary...


----------



## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

jlarkin said:


> Hopefully you're aware anyway and it's just phraseology but you haven't technically bought one (just in case you weren't aware). You've backed them and the reward may be that you get a sieve in return, if they're able to make it happen.
> 
> Happy to be corrected if that's not a good summary...


Yeah good point. Over confident with my post I guess!


----------



## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

I just didn't want it to be a surprise if it didn't work out


----------



## Flibster (Aug 15, 2010)

Looks an interesting thing. Seriously tempted.

Wouldn't even need to hold it, I've got a laboratory vibrator *wahay!







* somewhere in storage. Anti slip pad on top and away you go.


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Just backed the Barista version as well. Hopefully it won't be a dead donkey and it'll actually work. Maybe Socratic Coffee have ordered one as well to test, as they seem to do an awful lot of sieving with their tests.

How well will this work for espresso I wonder, will the smallest sieve be the perfect size to pull the perfect shot? I love my brew as well so should improve my filter coffee as well


----------



## evoman (May 13, 2014)

jlarkin said:


> Think it was $15 for the shipping but that's from memory. I also went Barista but off the original link that was shared, so don't think I'm one of the 11 unless it's traffic from cfuk rather than that link.


Keep in mind of possible customs charges as well (and Royal Mail service charges on top). I have backed something like 4 Kickstarter campaigns and the last item I received (similar cost to this item) got held in customs and I had to pay the fees. My sense is that they are imposing fees much more widely than they were a few years ago.


----------



## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Flibster said:


> Looks an interesting thing. Seriously tempted.
> 
> Wouldn't even need to hold it, I've got a laboratory vibrator *wahay!
> 
> ...


Just throw it in a tumble dryer...


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MWJB said:


> I think looking at this as a way to improve grinder performance, relative to other grinders for brewed, is the tip of the iceberg. By sieving out target areas you are making an abnormal distribution, that even really good burr grinders can't achieve. For instance, Nordic (ECBC) drip grind & the Rafino 400-800um set have a similar median grind (about 600um give or take). But in the case of the Rafino there would be essentially nothing outside these sizes making it into the brewer, the unsieved grind, from a good burr grinder would have about 30% falling outside these sizes, right down to a few um & up to maybe 1200um.


Here's a rough visual to help better explain...








[/url]


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

Well I am looking forward to mine coming, had gone for the early bird but somehow it didn't go through, no problem though as I changed my mind the second time and went for more sieves, what about that coffee though, US only, pah, could we sort a group buy to see what all the fuss is about?


----------



## alexferdi (Aug 4, 2015)

Stretch goals have been released including espresso seives if they reach £100,000. Very interesting. Get backing them people!


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Backing via this link will help us track how much of an impact we have in reaching stretch goals


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Choice of colours and finer seives... Wonder if the seive is option is only open to certain ones?


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

The extra sieves would be nice. I'm not sure how they'll work it, could be free to all backers who chose above a certain level and/or could be optional addons for an extra fee with an option to buy them in the survey when the campaign finishes. I honestly can't see them being free but you never know, with an order almost twice the size as they were originally going to place with the factory the production cost per unit could drop enough to allow it.


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

First Rafino stretch goal has been unlocked

Colour options - Rafino will now offer three colours:

Midnight Black, Roman Silver, Rafino Red.

Have you pre-ordered yours yet?

*http://2lzldc4B.kckb.st*


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

$100K stretch goal unlocked - and I've upgraded to Barista Plus ;-)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Same here









Package now includes more sieves with relevance to espresso.

The Barista PLUS

Receive 1 Rafino with 11 sieves

200, 250, 300, 350, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900 and 1000 micron

For more information click here


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Have they just recently added these, as don't recall seeing them before:

The Coffee Lover PLUS

The Coffee Geek PLUS


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

See above - released as $100K stretch goal has been hit

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jtldurnall (Mar 16, 2015)

Yeh, I think they add the espresso sieves to the original package.

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm a bit confused? I got an early bird package, how do I add the unlocked package?

I've currency backed $50 ($35 early bird plus $15 postage). Do I just change my pledged amount to $80?


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Yes - there is a Manage button on Kickstarter that allows you to change your pledge to the new package and the new price is reflected


----------



## jtldurnall (Mar 16, 2015)

Yeh, if you click on the one you've pledged to (it should be highlighted) there's an option to change your pledge. Simply change it to the one you want!

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk


----------



## drude (Apr 22, 2013)

It would be really useful if they published the sieve size to brew method guide before the Kickstarter ended so we could see what package best suits our planned usage, as there's quite a bit of variety now, and with shipping always being a pain it makes sense to get all the bits you need in one go.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

There are a lot of permutations as to how you might use the sieves, the standard 400 & 800um set should keep most folk busy enough, the 10 sieve set (which I backed) will probably not be fully utilised. Too tall an order to have all sizes & combinations, grinders etc. tested, especially as sizes now are being added due to customer demand (which is nice to see them responding), but without much in the way of data/experience in how these would be used.


----------



## drude (Apr 22, 2013)

Any thoughts on which set would offer the optimum flexibility for pourover, espresso and coldbrew?


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I'm not sure what seives I'd use so upgraded to barista plus as well ($15 extra). Looks like they haven't added anything finer than 200μm (would you need anything finer? Coffee dust?) I doubt I'd use these for espresso anyway, but keeping options open for faffing for faffing's sake. I was always led to believe once it's ground, you only have 18 minutes before it goes stale. The longer the grounds are faffed around with, the poorer the espresso which is completely defeating the object of the the seives. Grinding for pour over/filter should take longer to degrade due to the larger particle size and should improve things by removing the smaller particles.

I'm now wondering whether the Barista Plus version is overkill, or I should've gone for one of the newer options available?

I think there is a table on the Kickstarter page with a grind size/method graph. What are other folks opinions?


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Oh, as an addition, I believe once their next goal is reached they will be bringing out a bamboo seive holder for the stack of seives that will end up at the back of a drawer


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

drude said:


> Any thoughts on which set would offer the optimum flexibility for pourover, espresso and coldbrew?


The standard 400&800um set would seem ideal for pourover, just try and stretch out the brew time a little by slowing the pour.

I personally brew cold brew (immersion, not tried cold drip) fine, I wouldn't take any fines out (there's going to plenty of time for them to sink), aim for about half the weight to be caught on the 400um sieve, pretty much nothing on the 800um.

Espresso grind covers quite a range (~350um +/- 100um or so), so experiment with sifting out anything over 400, to 800um. Obviously if your average grind size is ~400um with that size sieve, you'll be throwing away half your dose, so then you might try the 500, 600 to 800um depending on what your grind actually is, perhaps remove 10-15% of the ground weight? I've never tried sieving espresso so take this with a pinch of salt.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Rhys said:


> I was always led to believe once it's ground, you only have 18 minutes before it goes stale. The longer the grounds are faffed around with, the poorer the espresso which is completely defeating the object of the the seives. Grinding for pour over/filter should take longer to degrade due to the larger particle size and should improve things by removing the smaller particles.


It won't take you anything like 18 minutes to sieve the grinds, even so, is there any data on how long it takes for grinds of certain sizes to stale?


----------



## drude (Apr 22, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Espresso grind covers quite a range (~350um +/- 100um or so), so experiment with sifting out anything over 400, to 800um. Obviously if your average grind size is ~400um with that size sieve, you'll be throwing away half your dose, so then you might try the 500, 600 to 800um depending on what your grind actually is, perhaps remove 10-15% of the ground weight? I've never tried sieving espresso so take this with a pinch of salt.


To be honest, I've just bought an electric grinder to reduce hassle, so I'm probably being naive thinking I'd get into using the Rafino for espresso. Might just stick with the Coffee Geek level I've pledged and use it for pourover. I can see a workflow becoming quite complicated with boulder regrinding, weight management etc, with an electric. I think this will work really well with hand grinders, though.


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Well you could just chuck the boulders out...but whatever. All stretch goals hit, free sieve holders for everyone!


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

The next stretch goal is now unlocked... A bamboo sieve stand/holder thingy

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## QuinlanVos (Apr 12, 2016)

Hi there,

This is my first post here, found the forum through the Kickstarter. Interesting place you have here, I'm learning a hell of a lot.

I've gone for the Barista plus top sit alongside my LaSanMarco grinder as a calibration device mainly. Might change my mind but life's a bit too short to start worrying about sifting before brewing. (I am going to be wrong, I know it)

I do wonder about the flavour change though and whether it's emperor's new clothes but open to ideas. Also can't help thinking that flow across the grind will also be affected in an espresso shot and maybe the loss of more complex paths might be to its detriment?

I've so much to learn haven't I!


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

I'm really looking forward to the flavour discussion that will open up when the Rafino's hit


----------



## JayMac (Mar 28, 2015)

So... They've taken the startup money. But I have yet to notice a survey email from Rafino. Is it just me or have they not sent them out yet?


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Not as yet - pretty early days

Expect to wait a month or so at least before the surveys come out (based on past experience of Kickstarter projects)


----------



## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

> *Fines*
> 
> Wow. Back in 2012 I won the World Brewers Cup with a routine centred around removing fines. As it turns out, sifting doesn't really get rid of all the small particles. There's still millions of them stuck to the larger grinds. When coffee is torn apart in the grinder it leaves pockets of positive and negative charges all over the grinds that attract the fines. Conclusion: sifting is pretty useless for particle segregation and testing.


Interesting read, if someone hasn't seen it yet (I don't think it was posted on CFUK yet): http://www.baristahustle.com/grinder-paper-explained/


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PPapa said:


> Interesting read, if someone hasn't seen it yet (I don't think it was posted on CFUK yet): http://www.baristahustle.com/grinder-paper-explained/


I'm not sure this is directly relevant to this thread & the grinding paper has already been discussed on CFUK.


----------



## JayMac (Mar 28, 2015)

Thanks for the info Glenn. I'm new to Kickstarter. Thanks!


----------



## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

JayMac said:


> Thanks for the info Glenn. I'm new to Kickstarter. Thanks!


I know at least one of the people from the rafino team had posted somewhere here, but I also just added a comment on there last update. I understand it'll involve a wait, but as the last update didn't really give any information on timings or plans, I thought I'd ask:

"I think this is very exciting and I'm prepared that it will involve a wait before further information becomes available and I also had some thoughts about that. As you mention, you also have a lot of people that were new to kickstarter that backed it, so it might be a nice idea if you were able to give any ideas of the timelines you have in mind.

I understand it may be too early to know when the products will be completed - for instance - but what are your targets in terms of getting surveys out, or how often will you give updates etc.? I've been lucky with the things that I've backed but it seems to me from reading some other campaigns that it's in the communication and delivery after the event that most people get disgruntled. "

I'll feedback if I here anything via that.


----------



## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

MWJB said:


> I'm not sure this is directly relevant to this thread & the grinding paper has already been discussed on CFUK.


Given that it claims sieving coffee to be a waste of time, surely it is fairly relevant


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

fluffles said:


> Given that it claims sieving coffee to be a waste of time, surely it is fairly relevant


Are those claims in proper context though?

Is sieving as informative as laser diffraction? No.

Is there a Kickstarter campaign that is offering laser diffraction equipment for the home user at sensible cost? No.

Has sieving been used for the last 70years to give some useful information as to brewed coffee medians & distributions? Yes.

Can you tangibly improve your brewed coffee by sieving? Yes.

Can you convey to other people an approximate median grind size &/or distribution by sieving coffee with calibrated sieves? Yes.

Do the people who have backed the Rafino perceive this is a value for money option for sieving, compared to lab sieves at £70-£80 per sieve? Yes.

Can sieving tell you anything about sub 100micron particles and their distribution (the focus of the grinding paper)? No.

Do sub 100micron particles have enough mass for most brewed coffee applications, commonly used in the home, to significantly impact on typical extractions? No.

Does the grinding paper discuss the mass of particles & distributions in terms of mass above 100um (in the ranges proposed for brewed coffee sieves)? No.

Note at the end of the article, Perger states, "Once I figure out how to brew fines properly I'll be back at the WBrC with an apology routine!"

There's already a thread on the grinding paper http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?31204-The-effect-of-bean-origin-and-temperature-on-grinding-roasted-coffee&highlight=effect , this is a thread for those interested in Rafino.


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

touché


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Guess it's likely we'll get hit with vat charges and a handling fee from Royal Mail on these?


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Funny how Socraticcoffee sieves just about everything in their experiments..


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

VAT should be £13.11

Don't know about Royal Mail handling charges. It depends on shipping method I think, I got a Razor from Canada over kickstarter and I didn't have to pay any handling fee.


----------



## Kai (Feb 1, 2015)

Royal Mail fee will be £8 , remember to add on any duty to be paid as well as vat


----------



## AMCD300 (Feb 11, 2016)

Interesting the article recommends keeping pre-measured doses of beans in the freezer to avoid pre-grind heating...does anyone do this?


----------



## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

All backers of Rafino will have received an update via email, for anyone who hasn't read it yet...

Progress update #1

I'm sure everyone has been wondering how things are progressing. It's been a busy time for us these last weeks and things are moving along nicely.

Here is what we are working on:

Finishing off the manufacturing design for the tooling. We ran into a bit of a snag with how the sieves lock into the containers, we were concerned that they would not sit properly and are working on a few solutions but we should wrap that up next week and begin making the tooling for production. This should not delay the delivery date as we have figured out a new faster shipping strategy.

We plan to fly to China mid May to inspect the progress and hopefully approve the tooling.

Working on packaging, we want it to be sturdy and beautiful.

Working on logistics to get everything to all our backers as quickly as possible once manufacturing is done.

We are also starting to work on the website so we can give updates, recipes and blog articles about brewing coffee with an even grind.

Milestones

We will be trying to give regular updates every two weeks, and whenever we reach the following milestones:

1. Finish design for manufacturing and tooling. Expected late May

2. Pre-production testing and production approval. Expected mid June

3. First production run for Kickstarter backers. Expected mid July

4. Packaging and shipping to backers. Expected delivery mid August.

Let us know if you have any questions.

Adam

RAFINO Team


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

They've hanged their name and branding. Tbh I don't like it so will no doubt be machining my own lid when it finally arrives or sanding/filling the one that comes with it. Just my opinion of course - other may like it.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Rhys said:


> They've hanged their name and branding. Tbh I don't like it so will no doubt be machining my own lid when it finally arrives or sanding/filling the one that comes with it. Just my opinion of course - other may like it.


What happened to the old brand??? Better name and look.


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

It's called KRUVE now, along with a new website.


----------



## knightsfield (Sep 22, 2014)

I wonder whose idea it was to name the company after a weight loss product.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Yup, bad name, can only presume that it was copywrite or something.


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I'm not impressed to the point that I feel like pulling out. Certainly not thought about it much have they.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Have they emailed the kickstarter crowd to inform them of the change. I suppose as long as it actually comes to market and it does what it says then you can live with the name. Still a crappy name though...


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> Have they emailed the kickstarter crowd to inform them of the change. I suppose as long as it actually comes to market and it does what it says then you can live with the name. Still a crappy name though...


Yes, they have. I'd not heard of another product called Rafino, I guess it's a situation anyone can find themselves in when entering new markets.


----------



## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Apparently they were served with a legal letter as someone else was using the name. The new name is apparently an amalgamation of the the family names of the company founders. They must have been under some time pressure I guess.


----------



## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

I preferred the other name but couldn't care less as long as they work well!


----------



## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

That is an awful name/brand really awful.

Not sure it will make much difference in the long run - if it's a decent product.

Mahlkog..... Makho.... other brands seem to do OK


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Drewster said:


> That is an awful name/brand really awful.
> 
> Not sure it will make much difference in the long run - if it's a decent product.
> 
> Mahlkog..... Makho.... other brands seem to do OK


Agree on all points. Guess they had to come up with something quick or face legal penalties. Shame as I liked the Rafino name. But at the end of the day you're buying a sieve not a brand. Hope it doesn't harm them long term.

If you mean Mahlkönig, at least that actually translates as Grind King in German, which is quite appropriate really. Although it could be misinterpreted in certain circles coat-door-gone!


----------



## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

'Kruve' means 'mighty fine sieves' in Siouan.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

What's Sioux for 'pulling my leg'.


----------



## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

The Systemic Kid said:


> What's Sioux for 'pulling my leg'.


It's not concept in their culture - so it's difficult to translate.


----------



## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

The closest, though, would be something like 'U-tu-tohn moo' or even 'Oh-\vah'-kon'.


----------



## UncleJake (Mar 20, 2016)

So with the VAT thing mentioned earlier... Should it be charged? Those that paid for the Kickstarter were supporting a concept, rather than directly buying a product... Y'know - £13 isn't worth going to court for - but deffo worth an 'angry-of-Twickenham' email.


----------



## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

UncleJake said:


> So with the VAT thing mentioned earlier... Should it be charged? Those that paid for the Kickstarter were supporting a concept, rather than directly buying a product... Y'know - £13 isn't worth going to court for - but deffo worth an 'angry-of-Twickenham' email.


Add £9 or so for Royal Mail administration fees, too? Can't remember how much they charge, but I think it's either £8 or £9.


----------



## UncleJake (Mar 20, 2016)

PPapa said:


> Add £9 or so for Royal Mail administration fees, too? Can't remember how much they charge, but I think it's either £8 or £9.


Shouldn't that come out of the postage fee? Dunno - but I suspect that international backers paid additional postage.


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

As long as it does what it says on, or should that be 'in' the tin, I guess I'm not totally fussed.


----------



## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

UncleJake said:


> ....but I suspect that international backers paid additional postage.


Yup. Plus inevitable Swiss customs charge.


----------



## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Latest update as of today:

"We have just moved all our inventory to our logistics facility this week and plan on shipping in the upcoming days. We will notify everyone once shipping has been processed. As for individual sieve units we estimate them costing around $15USD each."


----------

