# A question that may have been posed before? But don't shoot!



## Christycoffee (Jun 15, 2016)

Hi guys,

I'm sure this question may have been posted before but I can't seem to find a similar post.

I am due to open a communal creative space in the UK that will sell amongst other things, coffee, tea, food and other beverages.

Coffee would be one of our main sources of revenue along with food and other products that I dare mention on an online forum for fear of replication







.

I have had several meetings with local roasters who can offer some excellent high quality beans and also supply some great equipment such as the la marzocco linea classic 2group. I've heard some really good reviews about this machine but fear it might be a bit overkill for 50-80 covers and that I might be buying a Ferrari when I really only need a reliable Ford. Naturally wanting to keep costs to minimum I wonder whether its really worth it.

I am tempted by offers by companies such as Ily who will supply a La Spazialle machine for free as long as we buy so many Ily beans each week/month. The profit margin on coffee is a fair bit higher with Ily which is obviously another big pull but fear whether their beans are good enough.

We will be based in an area with high foot fall of solicitors and office workers but also uni students. Finding the middle ground is therefore essential in quality vs price.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Christy


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

do not tie yourself into any contract that gives you free equipment in exchange for using their beans. Have faith in the skills of your barista (yes, there is more to making coffee than chucking some beans in and pressing a button) and have a decent machine, grinder and buy your beans from whoever you want


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

what are the skill levels of the barista? have you considered a 2 group lever machine? it is a good talking point amongst the type of customer you are attracting and in the right hands can produce anything that a pump machine can. Far less to go wrong as well.


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## Christycoffee (Jun 15, 2016)

Isn't tying yourself into a contract for beans only an issue if the beans are of questionable quality and of course if the venture doesn't work out and we need to end the contract early, but I assume most of these contracts are for 1-2yr periods.

Re skill levels. I will be the main barista and we will have one other who I will train. I have been serving coffee's several years and have managed a cafe before but have experience only with automatic machines which I think I'd prefer to continue using for ease of use.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Christycoffee said:


> Isn't tying yourself into a contract for beans only an issue if the beans are of questionable quality and of course if the venture doesn't work out and we need to end the contract early, but I assume most of these contracts are for 1-2yr periods.
> 
> Re skill levels. I will be the main barista and we will have one other who I will train. I have been serving coffee's several years and have managed a cafe before but have experience only with automatic machines which I think I'd prefer to continue using for ease of use.


Well the Ily beans are going to be fairly poor.....you will be bumping along the bottom with that one. It's quite sad that beverage quality isn't something you would like to focus on a little bit more, with so few covers each day.

1. How much do you have to spend, can you buy new or used....will high end prosumer do, or perhaps 2 prosumer machines, or do you need a 2 group.

2. How many coffees per hour will you do max and total daily

3. Will you be the only Barista

4. Do you want to use the machine for hot water as well (teas etc..)

5. Will you be needing a maintenance agreement

Tying yourself into a contract for a few years is not a great idea TBH, far better to buy a grinder and machine, then be free to get your coffee from whoever you want. One or two small start ups on here who may be more than happy to supply the small quantity of beans you need.


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## Christycoffee (Jun 15, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Well the Ily beans are going to be fairly poor.....you will be bumping along the bottom with that one. It's quite sad that beverage quality isn't something you would like to focus on a little bit more, with so few covers each day.
> 
> 1. How much do you have to spend, can you buy new or used....will high end prosumer do, or perhaps 2 prosumer machines, or do you need a 2 group.
> 
> ...


Dave, thanks for your reply







.

It's not that I'm not keen to offer a higher quality beverage, heck thats why I'm on here asking for advice to decide which to go for - the commercial coffee retail or a higher quality independent roaster. I'm just looking into the commercial feasibility of both.

1. In terms of budget, we would plan to get finance on the machinery so that our cash isn't tied up. This is why I was attracted to purchasing a high end brand new machine that will not break down and is covered under a warranty.

2. I think that once we are up and running we will make approximately 50-80 coffees a day. Max 40 in an hour.

3. Will you be the only Barista - there will be two/three of us (my business partners) they have limited experience - the roaster/supplier of espresso machine has offered training as part of a packaged deal.

4. Do you want to use the machine for hot water as well - Yes.

5. Will you be needing a maintenance agreement - Yes, the roaster has recommended a good technician for maintenance.


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## Mad Wally (Feb 24, 2016)

Is there a particular reason you want an espresso machine, isn't it pearls before swine?

Most places I come have either commercial drip coffee machines or commercial super automatic coffee machines. Not as nice a good espresso but good enough for most.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

if you tie yourself into a bean for machine, say matthew algie, then they are such a size that they do have a reasonably large choice of beans and I dare say you will find one to suit, but the downside is you are paying a heftily inflated price for your beans on contract. there is no such thing really as a free machine and I wonder if serving the amount you are projecting would be feasible.

If your primary purpose is to serve coffee, then do you want it to be the best coffee possible or just coffee? There is no magic formula in this. Someone needs high end skills and if it is not you, then I am afraid the whole show will be a shambles. What are you competing against? locally?

Quite simply, a new machine (on finance) with decent grinders allows you to buy your beans from anyone you want. If you do not think that important then just go down the Illy route and hope that if you do not know any better, then your customers won't either!


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## Christycoffee (Jun 15, 2016)

Thanks for your response dfk41.

Although I wouldn't claim to be an expert barista, I have been making and serving coffee's for a fair few years. I'm confident with operating an automatic machine and with the correct training, my colleagues will be soon up to scratch. Setup and maintenance will be done by an external contractor. We plan not to be a specialist coffee shop. Our primary focus isn't coffee as I said in the beginning, but would be one of our main sources of revenue and so I want to ensure I may the right choice when choosing beans and machinery.


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## Christycoffee (Jun 15, 2016)

Hi Mad Wally,

This is exactly what I am thinking. I have seen plenty of places serving brands such as Ily to office workers and they have been successful. But I also understand that coffee culture continues to grow and peoples understanding of coffee grows with it along with their desire for higher quality product. This makes me wonder than in time, beans sourced from other than an independent roaster will be seen as real low quality, event amongst those who aren't particular clued up on coffee.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Not a business woman, but from my personal experience, given the choice of a chain, or an "illy type" independent I'd go to Starbucks all day long. And if you were charging me to use your creative space (a concept I'm very interested in as I return to degree level study shortly) I'd be bringing my own unless what you sold was excellent, independent and well made.


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## Christycoffee (Jun 15, 2016)

Thanks for your feedback Missy, its really appreciated. Once we're up and running I will send you a link and maybe you can come and visit us! Should be a really great meeting place for creatives in the Midlands


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## Christycoffee (Jun 15, 2016)

What are peoples opinions on the la marzocco linea classic 2 group for use in a small cafe of 50-80 covers. Is it overkill or a worthy investment??


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## BeanzzCoffee (Feb 27, 2015)

Christycoffee said:


> What are peoples opinions on the la marzocco linea classic 2 group for use in a small cafe of 50-80 covers. Is it overkill or a worthy investment??


Complete overkill imo, we use a la spaziale s5 and breeze through 1-200 coffees a day. No need to spend a fortune on a la marzocco when there are other quality machines which will fit your needs. If you don't want a large portion of cash tied up then you should look into second hand/refurbished equipment and then gauge whether an upgrade is necessary in 1-2 years time.

Also you say coffee will be a large part of your sales? Make it a priority. That's like me opening a burger bar and saying fries will be a large portion of my sales, but I'm not too fussed on their quality. Use a quality coffee roaster who can sort you out for around 11-13 £p kilo. I have some good contacts in this area but don't know if i can name them here.

P.s We acquired a 3 group la spaziale secondhand for £500 and with a bit of tlc saved ourselves over £4-4500 on buying it brand new, and its had 0 issues.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

My 2-cents:

Illy will do for the vast majority of your customer base unless you want to take pride in your coffee. I have been to places pulling an Illy equivalent out of a Strada EP (a 13k machine) and I took one sip and turned my nose up at it. Everyone else in the bar was happily enjoying their coffee.

'speciality' coffee places attract a more discerning customer, like most of the forum members here. We remember places we like that serve high quality coffee and return time and again going out of our way to visit the best places, passing many Costas, Starbucks, and cafes serving Illy on the way.

I guess it is really a weigh up between your profits and how much you want your coffee to be great, if you are just passing the serving footfall they are unlikely to object to Illy but unlikely to also pause to think how much nicer your coffee is than Costa. If your goal is to gain customers who take note of your coffee and return time and again because of how good it is then you are going to need better than Illy, and you are also going to need some proper training (some roasters do supply good training, some dont)


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

I'd speak to someone like Union for beans, training etc. They also distribute Tea Pigs and other things and have a good network of support and choice for less money than the tier 1 small roasters.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Not completely overkill - but if you grow then it will cope very well.

Consider second hand with maintenance contract in place.

Remember that the machine when running will be contributing to a significant portion of your income.

Consumer education is improving and many are now walking past commodity coffee suppliers in preference of locally roasted coffee.


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## Christycoffee (Jun 15, 2016)

Hi BeanzzCoffee,

Massive thanks for your post. I've pm'd you with some questions. I hope you don't mind.

Cheers

Christy


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

What's your customer base going to be? I have no intention of opening a coffee shop, but at out local park there is the opportunity to do so, and I discuss it hypothetically with dog walking friends.

most of them want 'a coffee' - something better than nescafe in a polystyrene cup and hot water - but something a drip could take care of. My mum would be in this group, and I suspect a lot of other pensioners would be too. nothing clever or fancy.

Next most popular would be Late and cappuccino, where you obviously need espresso and steam capability.

Very few (2 of us actually) would want to discuss the dry weight of beans and shot time with the barista, and order an espresso

We also decided being open at 6am for the early walkers would corner the market, especially if you could offer bacon butties









it has often been commented on here most people wouldn't know a decent coffee if it slapped them in the face, hence the success of starbucks......

so what's your target?


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