# Sage Duo Temp Pro



## Kyle T

Took the plunge yesterday, upgraded from my Classic to a Duo Temp Pro to go with my Smart Grinder Pro. Love the look and feel and the packaging and accessories see great. Taking a little getting use to but I'm hoping for good coffee ahead. Just wondered if any DTP owners had any advice/tips on getting the most from the DTP. Also when you time your extraction do you start the timer from the moment you turn the dial or from the moment you see coffee as it confuses me what with the pre infusion.


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## R6GYY

I've wanted to ask that question regarding timing









As far as tips go, my only one so far would be to take the accessories tray out of its hidey-hole before starting up the machine so as to avoid it getting wet.


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## MWJB

Time by what you can see & replicate, switch to brew, target weight in cup.


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## Kyle T

MWJB said:


> Time by what you can see & replicate, switch to brew, target weight in cup.


So don't start timing until I see coffee coming from the portafilter?


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## DoubleShot

Start timing from when you turn the dial. Timing from when you see first signs of espresso can and will vary depending on the beans being used (light or dark roast for example will be a finer or courser grind), dosage, how hard you tamped etc.


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## Kyle T

I find it slightly confusing with the DTP as its not producing coffee for the first 8-10 seconds so it feels like I'm never getting enough coffee when timing between 25-30 second. Maybe I need to adjust my grind?

I am also getting quite abit of coffee dripping from the portafilter after ive turned the dial back to standby position. Anyone else getting this?


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## PPapa

It does not come out as it has a pre-infusion. It starts with low pressure. That's normal and it's marketed as a feature. AFAIK you can't change it.

Drips or wet puck should be normal as well as it does not have a solenoid valve. Nothing to worry about...


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## Missy

Kyle are you weighing your coffee output? You should get around 1:2 in around 30 seconds, but adjusting for taste.


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## Kyle T

@PPaga I am aware of the pre infusion, it still confuses me though as surely the amount of coffee I am actually getting is only 20 seconds worth if you know what I mean?

@Missy yes I put 18g in and aim for 36g out in roughly 27 seconds. But like the sentence above, I'm timing to 30 seconds to get the 36g but it's only really 20 seconds of extraction. With my Classic I would actually get 36g in the 27 seconds. Maybe I just need to compensate for the pre infusion.


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## DoubleShot

My understanding is if it's taking 30 secs from when you turn the dial until you have 36g in your cup then your extraction is 30 secs. Forget about referring to it as 20 secs because that's how long it takes from first signs of espresso until you've reached a 36g extraction.

Some folks see first drops of espresso after 8 secs, others 10-12 secs and will still reach their 1:2 ratio in around 27 to 32 secs.

The finer you've ground the coffee and/or harder you tamp can be the cause of it taking longer until you see espresso in your cup from when you have started your extraction.

If it takes far too long then you've probably choked the machine and should back off on your grind level and/or tamp using less pressure.


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## Spy

How long does the DTP take to be ready to pour an espresso from first switch on in the morning ?


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## jimbocz

1 minute.


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## Missy

jimbocz said:


> 1 minute.


Really? How does the group head/ portafilter get hot let alone the water?!


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## Spy

Thx. That is pretty fast compared to a Gaggia Classic. I understand that the Classic has to heat the water in the boiler but still, 1 minute !


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## Kyle T

Group head doesn't really get hot, so leaving the portafilter attached (like you would with a Classic) won't warm it up. Just flush some water through it and that will be sufficient. But yes, it really is ready to go in 1-2 mins. Its a great little machine.


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## Spy

As some of you will have seen on other threads, I picked up my DTP on Saturday and have been experimenting with it to get everything dialed in.

I think I have got the Eureka Mignon right now in terms of timing and what I think is a decent grind size.

What I am now struggling with is getting the correct output weight in what is deemed to be the correct time period.

I am using 18g of coffee grounds but it only takes 10-15 seconds to get to 36g of coffee. I am measuring the time from turning the dial to achieving the target weight.

I think the grind size I am using is pretty fine. It feels like very fine salt and is clumping as it comes out the Mignon.

Generally, people say that you should go a bit coarser if it is clumping as it may be too fine so I imagine it is fine enough.

I don't mind the clumping as I get rid of the clumps in the container I am dispensing into.

I also think I am tamping pretty firmly and extraction seems to be even across the two spouts.

Anyone else experienced this fast extraction ?

Any recommendations on how I can get to the 25-30 second extraction time for 36g ?


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## R6GYY

Er, I'm not very good at this obviously! I'm using the double basket (I don't know the weight of coffee - haven't got precision scales yet, but the one time I did weigh on my kitchen scales it looked around 16g).

I thought that a single shot should produce about an ounce of espresso (around 28g) and a double shot around 2 ounces (56g).

With the 10 second pre-infusion on the DTP, I aim for around 30 to 35 seconds overall (I think!) to produce 55 to 60g of espresso. Sorry, I haven't got around to weighing properly as I don't have scales yet! I just extract to the same level in my glass every time. Not very scientific I know - but it is working for me until I get my scales and timer (I do use the timer on my phone occasionally).

Have I been getting this wrong all this time?


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## R6GYY

This implies 1oz water for 7 to 9 grams coffee which is what I've always aimed for . . . .

http://www.e-importz.com/perfect-espresso-shot.php


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## MWJB

Spy said:


> As some of you will have seen on other threads, I picked up my DTP on Saturday and have been experimenting with it to get everything dialed in.
> 
> I think I have got the Eureka Mignon right now in terms of timing and what I think is a decent grind size.
> 
> What I am now struggling with is getting the correct output weight in what is deemed to be the correct time period.
> 
> I am using 18g of coffee grounds but it only takes 10-15 seconds to get to 36g of coffee. I am measuring the time from turning the dial to achieving the target weight.
> 
> I think the grind size I am using is pretty fine. It feels like very fine salt and is clumping as it comes out the Mignon.
> 
> Generally, people say that you should go a bit coarser if it is clumping as it may be too fine so I imagine it is fine enough.
> 
> I don't mind the clumping as I get rid of the clumps in the container I am dispensing into.
> 
> I also think I am tamping pretty firmly and extraction seems to be even across the two spouts.
> 
> Anyone else experienced this fast extraction ?
> 
> Any recommendations on how I can get to the 25-30 second extraction time for 36g ?


Don't grind coarser or finer based on clumping. Grind coarser or finer based on taste...deal with the clumping if you get it (grinding into a ramekin, then transferring to the PF via a funnel gives you ample opportunity to break up clumps, then just a shake'n'tap of the PF will be enough to level out before tamping.

You are likely too coarse.

You're not aiming for 25-30seconds, you are aiming for your target weight/brew ratio with a good flavour. If that takes 30seconds+ (or 20sec at long brew ratios) then so be it.

Make life easier on yourself, start out more like 1:3 brew ratio, when you're getting that without sourness, try tightening the grind and pulling shots a little shorter, seeing if you can keep the flavour balanced.


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## MWJB

R6GYY said:


> This implies 1oz water for 7 to 9 grams coffee which is what I've always aimed for . . . .
> 
> http://www.e-importz.com/perfect-espresso-shot.php


Ignore all that, or you will be perplexed for a lot longer.


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## R6GYY

So . . . . I shouldn't be aiming for a 2oz (56/57g) shot, but rather a 2:1 ratio? So 32g out for 16g in?


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## R6GYY

Oh - just re-read about starting with 1:3 first. I'll have a play


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## Spy

R6GYY said:


> Er, I'm not very good at this obviously! I'm using the double basket (I don't know the weight of coffee - haven't got precision scales yet, but the one time I did weigh on my kitchen scales it looked around 16g).
> 
> I thought that a single shot should produce about an ounce of espresso (around 28g) and a double shot around 2 ounces (56g).
> 
> With the 10 second pre-infusion on the DTP, I aim for around 30 to 35 seconds overall (I think!) to produce 55 to 60g of espresso. Sorry, I haven't got around to weighing properly as I don't have scales yet! I just extract to the same level in my glass every time. Not very scientific I know - but it is working for me until I get my scales and timer (I do use the timer on my phone occasionally).
> 
> Have I been getting this wrong all this time?


It depends.

I am aiming for a 1:2 ratio so that means 9g of grinds makes 18 g of coffee (single) or 18g of grinds makes 36g of coffee (double)

A 1:3 ratio, which seems to be what you are getting gets you a Lungo



MWJB said:


> Don't grind coarser or finer based on clumping. Grind coarser or finer based on taste...deal with the clumping if you get it (grinding into a ramekin, then transferring to the PF via a funnel gives you ample opportunity to break up clumps, then just a shake'n'tap of the PF will be enough to level out before tamping.
> 
> You are likely too coarse.
> 
> You're not aiming for 25-30seconds, you are aiming for your target weight/brew ratio with a good flavour. If that takes 30seconds+ (or 20sec at long brew ratios) then so be it.
> 
> Make life easier on yourself, start out more like 1:3 brew ratio, when you're getting that without sourness, try tightening the grind and pulling shots a little shorter, seeing if you can keep the flavour balanced.


Yes, I think you may be right and the clumping is throwing me. Although it feels quite fine, I will grind even finer and see how it affects extraction time.

Although time is probably the last of the parameters to worry about, I am trying to aim for perfection, balacning taste with the various input variables











MWJB said:


> Ignore all that, or you will be perplexed for a lot longer.


Don't worry, I get all that









With the DTP, you cannot control temperature or pressure which leaves the following in my control:

*- Dose*: I am using 9g for single and 18g for double

*- Yield:* I am going for a 1:2 espresso ratio

*- Grind:* This is what I am trying to tweak at the moment. Combined with tamping pressure, the finer it is the, slower it should extract.

*- Time:* Aiming for 25-30 seconds


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## MWJB

R6GYY said:


> So . . . . I shouldn't be aiming for a 2oz (56/57g) shot, but rather a 2:1 ratio? So 32g out for 16g in?


The actual ratio just sets the strength of the shot, assuming you're hitting a nominal flavour balance. The strength you want might vary depending on the intensity of the coffee, there is no one correct, or magic ratio, but the more water you pass through the puck, the more you are likely to extract...but also the intensity & body will drop


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## R6GYY

I've tracked this down and had a good read.

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22879-Beginners-Reading-Weighing-Espresso-Brew-Ratios

Next on my list is some precision scales! I'm so pleased I joined this forum, I am learning all the time


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## MWJB

Spy said:


> With the DTP, you cannot control temperature or pressure which leaves the following in my control:
> 
> *- Dose*: I am using 9g for single and 18g for double
> 
> *- Yield:* I am going for a 1:2 espresso ratio
> 
> *- Grind:* This is what I am trying to tweak at the moment. Combined with tamping pressure, the finer it is the, slower it should extract.
> 
> *- Time:* Aiming for 25-30 seconds


Your grind influences pressure...and yield...and time...and taste.

With the dose you are using does the Razor disturb the tamped puck?

Don't use tamp pressure to slow the shot, this can lead to the water forcing it's way through the least dense parts of the puck, leaving other parts under extracted (uneven extraction). A few kg, upwards, will suffice...it's surprisingly easy to exceed 5kg with a light tamp.

Shot time - if you are brewing by ratio, you note/record time, you don't aim for it. Doing so is adding a variable you don't need.


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## Spy

Thank You are right about tamping, I didn't mean that I will increase tamp pressure to influence extraction time, I just meant that the correct pressure - 20-30 lbs - (as opposed to lighter or harder) will affect the extraction.

To be honest, I haven't used the Razor.

Maybe I am becoming too obsessed with time


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## R6GYY

Just ordered one of these little scales, as they seem quite popular here and cheap (I'm on a squeezed budget at the moment!).

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291264358507


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## Spy

R6GYY said:


> Just ordered one of these little scales, as they seem quite popular here and cheap (I'm on a squeezed budget at the moment!).
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291264358507


Well done Reggie. I have this one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-01G-500G-Digital-Electronic-Pocket-Gold-Jewelry-Weighing-Coin-Kitchen-Scale-UK-/251921411525?hash=item3aa7afadc5:g:eVIAAOSwx-9WxvnW

Mine only goes up to 500g but measures in 0.01g increments which is overkill for this but I had them already from drone stuff.

You will have endless fun and create new areas of obsession, like me !


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## Kyle T

@Spy it does sound like your grinding far to coarse. Do you have coffee coming out of the portafilter during pre-infusion? I only ask because I never do, normally for me pre-infusion starts about 12 seconds into turning the dial and I don't see any coffee from the portafilter until it has hit the 12 seconds. I am also one for focusing on time too much. I have found with my current coffee that it takes about 32-35 seconds for 36g to a taste that I enjoy.


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## Spy

I think you are right. I have been experimenting and now grinding a little finer.

Whereas before, I would get coffee a few seconds into the pre-infusion phase, now it takes longer. Not perfect, but definitely moving in the right direction.

To be honest, the main problem is not having any 'sample' espresso grinds to feel and compare to. That would have made it easier.


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## Spy

Quick update for anyone that has been following my calibration odyssey









I think I may have nailed it all today.

18g (double shot) of Colombian grounds, extracted into 37g of coffee in 30 seconds









Tasted good too. Not bitter like some previous attempts and a nice crema on top. Forgot to take a photo









Will take one on the next drink


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## R6GYY

I'm following your odyssey







.

My own will start in earnest when I get my scales which should arrive tomorrow. A shame (for me that is!) that you didn't go for the Sage Smart Grinder Pro, we could have had direct comparisons then.


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## R6GYY

My scales have arrived as predicted . . .


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## Spy

Spy said:


> Quick update for anyone that has been following my calibration odyssey
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I may have nailed it all today.
> 
> 18g (double shot) of Colombian grounds, extracted into 37g of coffee in 30 seconds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tasted good too. Not bitter like some previous attempts and a nice crema on top. Forgot to take a photo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will take one on the next drink


OK, following my joy at achieving what I was after, here are some photos of one I pulled this morning.

A smidgen under 18g of beans going in (my scale measures in 0.01g increments):










28 seconds later (I don't have a photo of the time as I used my phone to time it and take the photos !), 26g of beautiful coffee:


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## Mrboots2u

MWJB said:


> Ignore all that, or you will be perplexed for a lot longer.


But crema is the sign of proper espresso !


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## Kyle T

@Spy, at what point do you find you turn the dial back to standby when weighing your shot? I keep over shooting, I was turning off at around 31g but might have to go slightly lower


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## Spy

I have the same problem.

I turn it off around 30g and it continues to drip coffee to about 36-37g


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## urbanbumpkin

Are you using a naked or a twin spouted PF?

Both still hold coffee in them after you've stopped the shot. Spouted PFs more so.


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## R6GYY

Well I tried my new scales tonight, and there is a definite delay. I think I'm going to have to switch off at 30g, or perhaps even lower, to actually hit 36g. I did 4 or 5 practice shots tonight, and the closest I got I think was switch off at about 32g and I ended up with about 39g when the scales had caught up. That was overall around 30 - 31 seconds including the 10 second pre-infusion, so I think I am in the ball-park. I made a flat white with the last shot, and to be fair it was pretty good, even with my cheap Aldi beans (Cafe Express Guatemalan 3.99 for 454g). I bought some cheap beans as I knew I would be experimenting with grind size and wasting a lot of shots. I'm quite a fan of Aldi actually


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## Spy

urbanbumpkin said:


> Are you using a naked or a twin spouted PF?
> 
> Both still hold coffee in them after you've stopped the shot. Spouted PFs more so.


Just the standard Sage twin spout that comes with the machine.

There doesn't seem to be a naked portafilter available for the Sage DTP unless you DIY


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## Spy

R6GYY said:


> Well I tried my new scales tonight, and there is a definite delay. I think I'm going to have to switch off at 30g, or perhaps even lower, to actually hit 36g. I did 4 or 5 practice shots tonight, and the closest I got I think was switch off at about 32g and I ended up with about 39g when the scales had caught up. That was overall around 30 - 31 seconds including the 10 second pre-infusion, so I think I am in the ball-park. I made a flat white with the last shot, and to be fair it was pretty good, even with my cheap Aldi beans (Cafe Express Guatemalan 3.99 for 454g). I bought some cheap beans as I knew I would be experimenting with grind size and wasting a lot of shots. I'm quite a fan of Aldi actually


I find that around a 28-30g switch off will get you closest to 36g


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## R6GYY

Tonight I got 18g in, 37.8g out in 30 secs. Quite happy with that. Next time, I'm going to switch off at 28g - I think that will finish at 36g when the scales have caught up.


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## Craig-R872

As I'm new to this myself but the difference between 36g and 37.8 is about 1.8ml of coffee I don't think it will make a great difference. If your coffee is tasting good at 37.8g then great. I think as long as you are around those weights in and out you won't be far away. You may even find that 40g in the cup tastes better. Go on taste.


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## Spy

Agreed. Anywhere between 35g to 40g is fine for me. Highly unlikely you will get it spot on and the scales may not be that accurate although I do calibrate mine every month as they have a tendency to drift over time.


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## R6GYY

18 to 36.6 this morning 30 secs. Went for a smaller glass so less milk. Was lush, and I can only imagine how awesome my flat whites will be when I start using fresh beans again.


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## AMCD300

Spy said:


> Just the standard Sage twin spout that comes with the machine.
> 
> There doesn't seem to be a naked portafilter available for the Sage DTP unless you DIY


Sage sell a DTP-compatible 58mm Naked Portafilter on their UK Website for 67.97 GBP - and they have them in stock which is unusual:

http://www.sageappliances.co.uk/partsandaccessories.html

http://www.sageappliances.co.uk/partsandaccessories.html


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## R6GYY

AMCD300 said:


> Sage sell a DTP-compatible 58mm Naked Portafilter on their UK Website for 67.97 GBP - and they have them in stock which is unusual:
> 
> http://www.sageappliances.co.uk/partsandaccessories.html
> 
> http://www.sageappliances.co.uk/partsandaccessories.html


Hi. The DTP is a 54mm portafilter, not 58mm. That naked portafilter is NOT compatible with the Sage DTP.


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## AMCD300

R6GYY said:


> 18 to 36.6 this morning 30 secs. Went for a smaller glass so less milk. Was lush, and I can only imagine how awesome my flat whites will be when I start using fresh beans again.


Glad you have dialed it in now. Interesting thread this - I asked the same questions about pre-infusion when I first bought the machine. Not wishing to re-energize the discussion but I didn't see how a 30 second shot to 38g without pre-infusion could be the same as a 30 second shot to 38g with pre-infusion.

I used to time 37 seconds for 38g to make allowances for the 7 seconds PI and it tasted awesome. Now I go for 30 seconds to 38g with 7 seconds of PI (19g in an 18g VST Basket) I still get great shots with no discernable difference. Go figure! People tell me that the PI prepares the puck for a quicker extraction so you get the same outcome from a shorter full-pressure period.

Anyway, have fun trying different combinations of bean, grind, PI, temperature etc... coffee addiction is not just 'in the drinking'.


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## AMCD300

R6GYY said:


> Hi. The DTP is a 54mm portafilter, not 58mm. That naked portafilter is NOT compatible with the Sage DTP.


Of course - my mistake. Saturday morning without having my coffee yet. I am thinking of my DB and not the DTP. Ignore my last post. You will need to get the grinder out to convert the 54mm DTP double spout PF unfortunately.


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## R6GYY

The 54mm portafilter is one of the few down-sides to the DTP. It does limit options on accessories like tampers. Although luckily for me, Espro do a 53mm version of their calibrated tamper. Maybe Sage will bring out a 54mm naked portafilter at some point. The DTP does seem to be a very popular machine.


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## Kyle T

AMCD300 said:


> Glad you have dialed it in now. Interesting thread this - I asked the same questions about pre-infusion when I first bought the machine. Not wishing to re-energize the discussion but I didn't see how a 30 second shot to 38g without pre-infusion could be the same as a 30 second shot to 38g with pre-infusion.
> 
> I used to time 37 seconds for 38g to make allowances for the 7 seconds PI and it tasted awesome. Now I go for 30 seconds to 38g with 7 seconds of PI (19g in an 18g VST Basket) I still get great shots with no discernable difference. Go figure! People tell me that the PI prepares the puck for a quicker extraction so you get the same outcome from a shorter full-pressure period.
> 
> Anyway, have fun trying different combinations of bean, grind, PI, temperature etc... coffee addiction is not just 'in the drinking'.


Exactly, thats what confused me for a while, glad I wasn't the only person struggling with that. But all seems to be well now.


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## Gthe1

Can I get rid of that bit of black plastic in the PF on my DTP


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## Gthe1

Also I've got a Sage Grinder on 15 Espresso and at 18.5g of coffee in the double basket there seems room for 2 or 3 mm more. The shot tastes and pulls ok. What do you think?

Geoff


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## Mrboots2u

Gthe1 said:


> Also I've got a Sage Grinder on 15 Espresso and at 18.5g of coffee in the double basket there seems room for 2 or 3 mm more. The shot tastes and pulls ok. What do you think?
> 
> Geoff


Your aim is not to fill the basket . Coffee needs some headroom or space to expand . 18.5 for a double bakset is about the max


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## Gthe1

thanks mrboots2u

Geoff


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## fede_luppi

Gthe1 said:


> Can I get rid of that bit of black plastic in the PF on my DTP


You can/should, no discernible difference, and plastic is not the ideal material to be in contact with your coffee. For example, plastic does not have the thermic properties of metal, and may reduce the temperature of your shot


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## Gthe1

Thanks for the info fede_luppi, I'll get it out then.


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## Kyle T

fede_luppi said:


> You can/should, no discernible difference, and plastic is not the ideal material to be in contact with your coffee. For example, plastic does not have the thermic properties of metal, and may reduce the temperature of your shot


so we can just go ahead and remove the black plastic disc that sits at the bottom of the portafilter underneath the basket? What is it there for in the first place if it's ok to remove it? Has anyone else done this?


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## Spy

I haven't done it.....yet......as I assumed, like you, it must be there for a reason otherwise why add additional manufacturing cost (materials and labour to insert it) ?


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## Mrboots2u

Spy said:


> I haven't done it.....yet......as I assumed, like you, it must be there for a reason otherwise why add additional manufacturing cost (materials and labour to insert it) ?


Keep the portafilter clean underneath?

Have you go a pic of the pf


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## Kyle T

Unless someone can add a pic any sooner, I will post one up tonight after work.


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## Kyle T

Ok so here is the pic of the black plastic inside the portafilter. I originally thought it was for the blind silicone basket but that don't seem to be the case.


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## Jumbo Ratty

Gthe1 said:


> Can I get rid of that bit of black plastic in the PF on my DTP





fede_luppi said:


> You can/should, no discernible difference, and plastic is not the ideal material to be in contact with your coffee. For example, plastic does not have the thermic properties of metal, and may reduce the temperature of your shot





Kyle T said:


> so we can just go ahead and remove the black plastic disc that sits at the bottom of the portafilter underneath the basket? What is it there for in the first place if it's ok to remove it? Has anyone else done this?





Spy said:


> I haven't done it.....yet......as I assumed, like you, it must be there for a reason otherwise why add additional manufacturing cost (materials and labour to insert it) ?


Ive read the black plastic thing, which is refereed to as a doohickey is there for thermal stability

Quotes ive read below

"I removed the black thing the first day of use. Yes, it's supposed to be for thermal stability, but not necessary if the entire portafilter is heated up evenly with the grouphead. My portafilter gets plenty hot by conduction and if you want it hotter you could always run some water through it"

"The black plastic disc in the PF - It originally was to help keep the espresso hot if the user did not allow the PF to come to full temperature. And as an aid for the *squirt of espresso* when using double wall baskets. "


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## Kyle T

So I have only just got round to removing the black plastic from the portafilter and I can confirm it works fine without it, stills warms up if you flush some water through it from the group head and still produces a shot normally.


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## Gerard229

I have just bought the Sage DTP and a Delonghi KG79 Grinder. I have the grinder set on the finest setting and aiming for a 1 - 2 extraction I am getting a very short extraction time of only about 10 seconds from the first drip. After reading this thread, which was very informative, I think that my short extraction time is due to the grind not being fine enough. Just before I look into changing my grinder is anyone else using the Delonghi grinder successfully? I think my next step is to grind some beans where I work and try them in my machine and see if the extraction time is better. Any advice/suggestions would be appreciated


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## garydyke1

Gerard229 said:


> I have just bought the Sage DTP and a Delonghi KG79 Grinder. I have the grinder set on the finest setting and aiming for a 1 - 2 extraction I am getting a very short extraction time of only about 10 seconds from the first drip. After reading this thread, which was very informative, I think that my short extraction time is due to the grind not being fine enough. Just before I look into changing my grinder is anyone else using the Delonghi grinder successfully? I think my next step is to grind some beans where I work and try them in my machine and see if the extraction time is better. Any advice/suggestions would be appreciated


How many grams of coffee in the basket....how many grams of espresso in the cup ?


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## Gerard229

It was 18g in the basket and I extracted to 36g in the cup (removing the cup from under the basket at that point) this only took 10 seconds. The coffee was ok and had a nice looking crema but aware that with such a fast extraction time it was definitely not the best it could be.


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## ronsil

Sounds like you need to grind much finer. Welcome BTW.


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## AMCD300

Welcome aboard. If you are grinding as fine as you can then there are a few other variables to consider. The beans make a difference so are you using fresh roasted and rested beans? Also try tamping more firmly to try and increase extraction time. Good luck!


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## Gerard229

Thanks. The beans were roasted on 23rd July 2016. I will try tamping more firmly too.


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## Gerard229

OK So I have just tried an extraction using the coffee ground today in a Fracino commercial grinder that is setup fine enough for use with a Fracino Retro FCL2 espresso machine (two group head commercial machine) the extraction is exactly right on the Fracino. However, using this grind in my Sage with a single wall basket - I get exactly the same results as I did previously a 1 - 2 (16g in portafilter - 38g oops it over ran in the cup) extraction in about 10 seconds







in fact I think that 16g in the basket is too much as I could see the indentation of the group head filter in the coffee when I removed the portafilter.


----------



## MWJB

If the coffee is too coarse it will sit high in the basket & flow too quick. Forget the Retro FCL2, concentrate on your machine, drop the dose a little, maybe a gram or so?

Grind finer.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Yep, finer is the way to go.


----------



## Gerard229

Thank you. I understand about the grind coarseness. The grinder that I have (the Delonghi KG79) is set to it's finest grind setting so I had no where to go with that hence the test with the Fracino grinder and the reference to the FCL2 to make a comparison. Though I did expect the Fracino grind to make a significant difference even if it wasn't exactly right for my machine.


----------



## Jon

Maybe your beans are too old n dry? Where did you keep em?


----------



## Jon

Jon said:


> Maybe your beans are too old n dry? Where did you keep em?


And what beans are they, from where etc?


----------



## Gerard229

The beans are Ethiopian they were roasted on 23rd July 2016. They were in a proper sealed coffee bag with a little air valve until they were put into my grinder the day before yesterday. They were roasted where I work and have used the same batch of beans in the bar's espresso machine with good results.

Thank you to all the people who have taken time to post advice for me.


----------



## MWJB

I'm not sure that your grinder (De Longhi KG79) is up to the task.


----------



## Gerard229

Ironically the grinder appears to have given up! No lights and no power so it will be going back. It has been used around 10 times and only for small amounts









Any suggestions on a replacement grinder that will do the job?


----------



## ronsil

The Sage grinder is cheap & will do the job.Not brilliantly but better than what you had.

For its best performance prepare for it to be wasteful in use & needs to be kept spotless

Ron


----------



## Gerard229

ronsil said:


> The Sage grinder is cheap & will do the job.Not brilliantly but better than what you had.
> 
> For its best performance prepare for it to be wasteful in use & needs to be kept spotless
> 
> Ron


Thanks Ron

I had considered the Sage but can you possibly elaborate on what you mean about being wasteful and being kept spotless.


----------



## ronsil

Well on the Oracle,pretty much the same grinder it auto doses at a fixed 21.5 grams. I look to set it to deliver espresso at 43 grams out. Usually circa 35-40 seconds incl. 9 secs pre-infusion. Just take note, in case you didn't know, I only use darker roasted beans. Currently Jagong Village blended 50/50 with Monsooned Malabar.

I keep the hopper empty & only put in enough(more than) beans for the current session eg for 3 doubles I put in 70-75 grams. After each session I empty out all retained beans & grinds from the grinder. Brush & vacuum the chutes so its left ready for next session. Take the upper burr out for stiff brushing every fortnight.

Because I kept the EK I am able to compare espresso output & quite frankly as long as I keep the Sage immaculate the results are very acceptable. Not the full flavour in depth or the speed as from the EK, which is to be expected but acceptable.

I also mentally note using this system I will need to replace the burrs fairly frequently.


----------



## Gerard229

OK so I now have the Sage Smart Grinder Pro and the results are better. However, I am timing my shots from the first drip but I saw earlier in this post someone suggested timing from turning the switch... which is correct? I am also grinding 18g into the basket and getting 36g into the cup in about 30 seconds but I think this is too much coffee as it is quite high after tamping. My extraction also starts off very slowly ie drips for quite a while before I get a steady flow. Is the grind too fine? The coffee may taste a little bitter too but is that a result of the slow extraction? The grinder is set to no. 12 grind size and 18 seconds grinding to get the 18g.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Gerard229 said:


> OK so I now have the Sage Smart Grinder Pro and the results are better. However, I am timing my shots from the first drip but I saw earlier in this post someone suggested timing from turning the switch... which is correct? I am also grinding 18g into the basket and getting 36g into the cup in about 30 seconds but I think this is too much coffee as it is quite high after tamping. My extraction also starts off very slowly ie drips for quite a while before I get a steady flow. Is the grind too fine? The coffee may taste a little bitter too but is that a result of the slow extraction? The grinder is set to no. 12 grind size and 18 seconds grinding to get the 18g.


Time from when you switch the pump on ....


----------



## MWJB

Gerard229 said:


> OK so I now have the Sage Smart Grinder Pro and the results are better. However, I am timing my shots from the first drip but I saw earlier in this post someone suggested timing from turning the switch... which is correct? I am also grinding 18g into the basket and getting 36g into the cup in about 30 seconds but I think this is too much coffee as it is quite high after tamping. My extraction also starts off very slowly ie drips for quite a while before I get a steady flow. Is the grind too fine? The coffee may taste a little bitter too but is that a result of the slow extraction? The grinder is set to no. 12 grind size and 18 seconds grinding to get the 18g.


18g sounds a lot, maybe try 15-16g? Weigh the dose to 0.1g.

Your machine has 10 seconds of preinfusion before the pump goes to full pressure. Your extraction isn't slow. I suspect the grind is on the coarse side if anything.

If the shot isn't tasting good, why are you killing it at ~30seconds?


----------



## Gerard229

So when you say killing it at 30 seconds do you mean I am over extracting the shot? Which I am definitely doing if I'm timing from the first drip not when I start the pump.

Ok so just to clarify before I make the adjustments. I am aiming for 1 - 2 extraction in around 30 seconds. Coffee in the basket of 15g so a shot weighing 30g in the cup and Timing the 30 seconds from turning on the pump?


----------



## Mrboots2u

Gerard229 said:


> So when you say killing it at 30 seconds do you mean I am over extracting the shot? Which I am definitely doing if I'm timing from the first drip not when I start the pump.
> 
> Ok so just to clarify before I make the adjustments. I am aiming for 1 - 2 extraction in around 30 seconds. Coffee in the basket of 15g so a shot weighing 30g in the cup and Timing the 30 seconds from turning on the pump?


kill the shot by weight

Note the time but dont let that dictate when to stop a shot

there is no magic to 30 seconds as a time frame ....25-45 seconds at least might work depending on your tastes and brew ratio

Time on it's own wont indicate under or over extraction . the coffee to water used will

You can have a 50 second shot but if it's only making 18g of espresso from a 18g dose its still likely to be" under extracted" ... you are mixing up strength with over extraction ...

stick to simple taste descriptors for now rather than describing the extraction yield as under or over.


----------



## MWJB

Gerard229 said:


> So when you say killing it at 30 seconds do you mean I am over extracting the shot? Which I am definitely doing if I'm timing from the first drip not when I start the pump.
> 
> Ok so just to clarify before I make the adjustments. I am aiming for 1 - 2 extraction in around 30 seconds. Coffee in the basket of 15g so a shot weighing 30g in the cup and Timing the 30 seconds from turning on the pump?


Why do you think you are over-extracting the shot? Time is poor indicator of extraction for espresso.

If you are brewing by ratio, you stick to the ratio, adjust grind based on taste, but record time as rough guide to good tasting shots. By trying to aim for a specific time (that cannot guarantee a consistent result by itself) you are limiting your range of extraction & making life harder for yourself.


----------



## Gerard229

Thank you for the replies. This is very helpful and I hope you don't mind me labouring the point but I am trying to get it right.

So I should focus more on the 1 - 2 extraction and the taste? Surely though there is a time range that the Duo Temp Pro should pull the shot in, I was happy that 30 seconds was in that range somewhere (bringing me to the important question above - do I start the time from first drip or starting the pump on the DTP?). So I am going to start by reducing the coffee weight in the basket 15 or 16g. Then I am going to extract 1 -2. I accept your point about taste rather than the 30 seconds but surely there are time parameters which are based on my grind size, aren't there? A minimum that time that the shot should take for example before I got the sage grinder I was told my grind needed to be finer as it was only taking 10 seconds to extract a shot.


----------



## MWJB

Gerard229 said:


> Thank you for the replies. This is very helpful and I hope you don't mind me labouring the point but I am trying to get it right.
> 
> So I should focus more on the 1 - 2 extraction and the taste? Surely though there is a time range that the Duo Temp Pro should pull the shot in, I was happy that 30 seconds was in that range somewhere (bringing me to the important question above - do I start the time from first drip or starting the pump on the DTP?). So I am going to start by reducing the coffee weight in the basket 15 or 16g. Then I am going to extract 1 -2. I accept your point about taste rather than the 30 seconds but surely there are time parameters which are based on my grind size, aren't there? A minimum that time that the shot should take for example before I got the sage grinder I was told my grind needed to be finer as it was only taking 10 seconds to extract a shot.


Yes, those parameters regarding your grind size will facilitate a decent extraction, this will be more evident in the taste (balanced/sweet) than in the time the shot takes (could be +50%/-33% for example). Time from when you press the button, as the time to first drip can vary, but the time from pressing the button is a known point.

If your 1:2 shots at 30seconds don't taste good, maybe look at 30seconds as your minimum?


----------



## wild13

Got to say after a lot of research over the last few days that the Sage Duo Temp Pro looks like a great buy,


----------



## Spy

A quick question for the DTP owners, does anyone find that the filter basket gets stuck in the head when you remove the portafilter i.e. the portafiler twists out but the filter remains in the head ?


----------



## ronsil

That can happen & does with any machine.

More related to dose,grind & tamp rather than a particular machine


----------



## Kyle T

Yeh it has occasionally happened with mine, not often though.


----------



## MWJB

Spy said:


> A quick question for the DTP owners, does anyone find that the filter basket gets stuck in the head when you remove the portafilter i.e. the portafiler twists out but the filter remains in the head ?


Sounds like too much coffee in the portafilter.


----------



## colonel_blimp

MWJB said:


> Sounds like too much coffee in the portafilter.


That's definitely my experience.


----------



## AMCD300

+1...


----------



## Spy

MWJB said:


> Sounds like too much coffee in the portafilter.


Uh, it doesn't get stuck when making coffee.

It gets stuck when I want to make a coffee i.e. when the Portafilter has been in the head empty and I remove it to add coffee


----------



## R6GYY

If it helps, AO.COM are doing 10% off coffee machines at the moment, including all Sage machines. Currently for instance they are selling the Duo Temp Pro for £300, take off 10% that makes £270.

Just in case anyone is on the fence about price - that may sway you


----------



## jimbocz

I'm really surprised that anyone's basket stays behind when removing the portafilter. I find my baskets are very tight and difficult to remove. I have to use the end of a spoon to get it off sometimes.


----------



## MarkT

Same with mine sometime I have to use a knife to wedge it out. Especially the single one after the cleaning cycle.


----------



## colb16

R6GYY said:


> If it helps, AO.COM are doing 10% off coffee machines at the moment, including all Sage machines. Currently for instance they are selling the Duo Temp Pro for £300, take off 10% that makes £270.
> 
> Just in case anyone is on the fence about price - that may sway you


Anyone know what AO customer service is like if you ever had any issues?


----------



## joffy

Which descaler are you guys using for the DTP?


----------



## R6GYY

colb16 said:


> Anyone know what AO customer service is like if you ever had any issues?


Not familiar with ao.com myself, but there is a 2 year repair or replacement warranty with Sage themselves for the DTP I think.


----------



## Ritch

I've always started the timer (either mentally or, you know, the actual timer) from the moment I turn the dial. That gives me ten seconds to play the Countdown music in my head to see if I can get the "bong" just as the coffee starts to pour.

I'll get my coat.

Edit - Yes, I know, that's random in the context of the latest posts in the thread. I'm afraid my mind was stuck thinking about the original post...


----------



## joffy

Took the portafilter apart to give it a good clean and the rubber washer has perished. Anyone know the correct size to replace it?


----------



## bboy

Anyone have problems with Cold coffee from DTP? Water from group head, directly into a heated cup is only 72 degrees. Extracted coffee is coming in at 65.

Isnt it supposed to be close to 92?

Im heating the milk to 65 and the resulting coffees are luke warm, which I dont like at all. The only hot(ish) flat whites have been obtained by overheating the milk or putting the coffee in the microwave for a few secs.

Could this be a fault with the PID?


----------



## MWJB

Extracted coffee at 65 seems typical for espresso...even that would be too hot for me 

Be aware that the natural sweetness in coffee is often most apparent around 50 or maybe even lower.

If you want hot, hot coffee a percolator might be best (though they don't have a reputation for good flavour).


----------



## jimbocz

bboy said:


> Anyone have problems with Cold coffee from DTP? Water from group head, directly into a heated cup is only 72 degrees. Extracted coffee is coming in at 65.
> 
> Isnt it supposed to be close to 92?
> 
> Im heating the milk to 65 and the resulting coffees are luke warm, which I dont like at all. The only hot(ish) flat whites have been obtained by overheating the milk or putting the coffee in the microwave for a few secs.
> 
> Could this be a fault with the PID?


Are you running hot water from the group head over the portafilter before putting the coffee in? That's what the instructions say to do and it really helps to heat up the PF. I also prefer to add a bit of hot water from the wand at the end which also makes it a bit hotter .


----------



## Kyle T

I have found that whilst the DTP does heat up ready to use very quickly the best thing is to flush some water through the Portafilter first and then leave it connected for 5 mins (minimum) to get it nice and warm. If you have ever made 3-4 coffees in a row using the DTP you will probably notice it gets warmer with each coffee. I suppose even though its ready to go after 30 seconds - 1 minute it still really needs a while to properly heat up.


----------



## bboy

Kyle T said:


> I have found that whilst the DTP does heat up ready to use very quickly the best thing is to flush some water through the Portafilter first and then leave it connected for 5 mins (minimum) to get it nice and warm. If you have ever made 3-4 coffees in a row using the DTP you will probably notice it gets warmer with each coffee. I suppose even though its ready to go after 30 seconds - 1 minute it still really needs a while to properly heat up.


thanks.

Will try that, but I have been pouring boiling water from the kettle through the portafiller, warm the cup the same way, so they could not be any hotter. I have also flushed the group head for a few seconds. The extracted coffee is coming out at 55 degrees, add the 65 degree milk to a cooler liquid and you have a luke warm coffee.

I called customer care and they are looking at exchanging it for me.


----------



## bboy

Would anyone be kind enough to measure the temp of their water, direct from the group head, no portafiller attached(preferably a warm cup so no heat loss), so I can ascertain if its just my machine or all of them

Thanks


----------



## MWJB

bboy said:


> Would anyone be kind enough to measure the temp of their water, direct from the group head, no portafiller attached(preferably a warm cup so no heat loss), so I can ascertain if its just my machine or all of them
> 
> Thanks


There will be heat loss at the liquid in the cup will be cooling. How hot are you expecting the beverage to be, give us an idea?


----------



## bboy

Cheers for the reply.

Mine is measuring 72deg. The beginning of the extraction process needs needs to be at 93 or close to it., at least initially. I would expect some heat loss if the cup is cooler than the liquid, I am heating the cup with boiling water, so it shoudnt be a significant factor if the temp is measured straight away The bottom line here is my coffees are only warm unless I overheat the milk, then it tasted burnt. The DTP claims to extract the coffee at the optimum temp....

'A great tasting espresso or cappuccino is about the right balance of sweetness, acidity and bitterness. This is achieved at 93ºC, but texturing milk requires much hotter temperatures.'


----------



## MWJB

Indeed the water hitting the puck should be ~93C, but it's a relatively small amount of water & the puck is ~70% wood which will absorb heat, you shouldn't be seeing anything like 92C in the cup, or leaving the portafilter. 72C sounds completely reasonable, even on the hot side (INEI suggest 67C +/-3C as typical).

A degree or two here/there is not going to have as big an impact on the taste as getting the grind, brew ratio & extraction right. The taste of the coffee often improves as it cools.

If you must have piping hot coffee, espresso doesn't sound like the brew method for you. I guess you could microwave the shot after pulling it?


----------



## bboy

cool. Thanks for that info. Much appreciated.

maybe I didnt explain very well. I am getting 72deg from the grouphead into a hot cup, no coffee extraction or portafiller attached to absorb heat.

Its not piping hot im after. I drink plenty of good coffee from cafes and the temperatue of mine is way off. My milk is heated to 65 deg.

A flat white should be 70deg, which requires the shot to be, as you stated, in the around 70 mark.

My extracted shot (warmed the portafiller &warmed the cup with the kettle, ran hot water through the group head) is 48 deg, which is way off your suggested optimum of 67deg . Im only a novice here, but thats not going to make a 70deg flat white after adding 65 deg milk.

Cheers


----------



## Missy

I would suggest if you want a hotter drink make the milk hotter- or take your thermometer to the cafes you like and stick it in the cup.


----------



## Missy

I'd also be interested in the source of your knowledge, what temperature things *should* be is a frequent phrase.

May also be worth looking at the heat retention of your cups? Some retain heat better than others.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Missy said:


> I'd also be interested in the source of your knowledge, what temperature things *should* be is a frequent phrase.
> 
> May also be worth looking at the heat retention of your cups? Some retain heat better than others.


Plus one of above , where does a specified temp for a flat white come from ?

Pointless measuring temp of espresso , in a cup too .


----------



## stereoket

I just purchased a DTP today, after a lot of reading and procrastination. Its a definite step up from my first cheap DeLonghi machine of years back. I've been using aeropress/pour-over mainly for a good long while.

The first big hurdle i've run into is the use of the unpressurised double basket and my Bartza virtuoso grinder settings. The generic Espresso setting for the virtuoso in their guide cards is '*8*' - this just let running water through and was a big disappointment. I've also had to limit to approx 16g of coffee, as any more seemed to be too much for the portafilter basket razor. After a bit of experimentation, i've gone to '*3*' on the grinder and applying a lot of pressure when tamping, that produced my first ok-ish pull. I am going to drop to 2 and apply more tamp pressure. I have a lovely heavy tamp but is not the same diameter, slightly smaller, which is a shame. I'm impressed that the machine can handle the very fine grind.

Just hoping to get it calibrated for regular use. Anyone had any grind/tamp woes when starting off using this machine?


----------



## messier0101

bboy said:


> Anyone have problems with Cold coffee from DTP? Water from group head, directly into a heated cup is only 72 degrees. Extracted coffee is coming in at 65.
> 
> Isnt it supposed to be close to 92?
> 
> Im heating the milk to 65 and the resulting coffees are luke warm, which I dont like at all. The only hot(ish) flat whites have been obtained by overheating the milk or putting the coffee in the microwave for a few secs.
> 
> Could this be a fault with the PID?


I've not checked the temperature of my coffee, but I have similar results.

My espressos are very warm but drinkable, but if I add steamed milk I feel it's a little too cool for my liking. I tend to steam my milk for a tad longer which makes a reasonably hot drink.

I'm going to get a thermometer and see what it shows.


----------



## Kyle T

stereoket said:


> I just purchased a DTP today, after a lot of reading and procrastination. Its a definite step up from my first cheap DeLonghi machine of years back. I've been using aeropress/pour-over mainly for a good long while.
> 
> The first big hurdle i've run into is the use of the unpressurised double basket and my Bartza virtuoso grinder settings. The generic Espresso setting for the virtuoso in their guide cards is '*8*' - this just let running water through and was a big disappointment. I've also had to limit to approx 16g of coffee, as any more seemed to be too much for the portafilter basket razor. After a bit of experimentation, i've gone to '*3*' on the grinder and applying a lot of pressure when tamping, that produced my first ok-ish pull. I am going to drop to 2 and apply more tamp pressure. I have a lovely heavy tamp but is not the same diameter, slightly smaller, which is a shame. I'm impressed that the machine can handle the very fine grind.
> 
> Just hoping to get it calibrated for regular use. Anyone had any grind/tamp woes when starting off using this machine?


Hi stereoket, first thing most people will tell you is not to bother with the razor. I don't know too much about the Baratza Virtuoso and so I am not sure if its desgined for espresso or not but i don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to fit 18g of coffee into the double basket, I do that every day and its fine. Obviously because of less grinds going into the basket it will mean slightly finer grinding and or heavier tamping.


----------



## jimbocz

I use the razor every day. It's a quick way to get 18 grams in the portafiler without the hassle of weighing. What's not to like? When I first got it, I tested it several times with the scales and found it pretty consistent.

EDIT: It's 16 g


----------



## Kyle T

I was looking at some old razor posts this morning and came across yours @jimbocz, how are you getting 18g with the razor now? Your thread said you was getting 16g each time? Just curious as i didn't think this was anyway of it being accurate or adjustable.


----------



## stereoket

Kyle T said:


> Hi stereoket, first thing most people will tell you is not to bother with the razor. I don't know too much about the Baratza Virtuoso and so I am not sure if its desgined for espresso or not but i don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to fit 18g of coffee into the double basket, I do that every day and its fine. Obviously because of less grinds going into the basket it will mean slightly finer grinding and or heavier tamping.


Hi KyleT,

I've been away for a few days, so not got to play any more with the machine. This morning I dosed 18g, went one notch finer (Baratza Virtouso is designed for very fine espresso to very coarse french press - it has 40 grind settings, a pretty nice piece of equipment and not cheap), its now on *2. *

I also tamped a little harder, all looked good and managed to get a solid 25 second extraction from the first sign of a pour and I am very happy with the results, I think some more calibration tweaking required. I didn't use the Razor.


----------



## jimbocz

Kyle T said:


> I was looking at some old razor posts this morning and came across yours @jimbocz, how are you getting 18g with the razor now? Your thread said you was getting 16g each time? Just curious as i didn't think this was anyway of it being accurate or adjustable.


You know, I couldn't remember wether I was getting 16 or 18 grams with the razor so I looked at one of my old posts as well before I wrote that. The one I found said 18, but I'm sure it could be 16 , or I could have written 16 by mistake in the post you found. I don't know off the top of my head because I don't weigh my grinds very often any more.

What I do know is that the razor works for me as a way of getting a specific measure of grounds into the portafilter. That amount is the amount sage suggests and the amount that generally works for my coffee to taste good. If I want to try a different measure, I'll use scales. Like you point out, it's not adjustable.

Accurate? I was curious, so I tested it by using the razor, then weighing the results several times. All came out to the same weight, or close enough for me. I'm sure scales would be more accurate, but I'll accept that small risk for less faff.

You were probably correct in that using scales was the best plan for someone trying to get used to their new DTP, that's what I did as well.


----------



## jimbocz

For Science, I got out my scales. The razor does 16 grams.


----------



## Mrboots2u

jimbocz said:


> For Science, I got out my scales. The razor does 16 grams.


Be interesting to see what the does is when bean changes . Also are you using 0.1g scales ?


----------



## jimbocz

I'll try it again with more accurate scales. Also, I'm just about to change beans so I'll try it again with both.


----------



## Mrboots2u

jimbocz said:


> I'll try it again with more accurate scales. Also, I'm just about to change beans so I'll try it again with both.


So the measure could be plus or minus 0.9g ?


----------



## colb16

Hi All,

Just trying to get an idea of what people do for their coffee making routine in the morning with the DTP. Only ask as I was recently looking at the Sage instructions and some points there that I had not been following, heating up the portafilter for instance. Others seem to be flushing before and after. I do warm my cup with some hot water. I think flushing after extraction probably makes sense and will start doing that from now on.

Do you do any weekly cleaning? Like soaking portafilter and basket with cleaning tablet as they suggest.


----------



## filthynines

I always heat the portafilter from the kettle. I flush now and then, but more likely just before I pour the shot than just after.

Will likely clean with tablets every two weeks from this point on. Might check the shower screen monthly to see what gunk has built up.


----------



## Kyle T

I flush the portafilter to warm it up whenever i make a coffee. I also flush after ive banged the puck out to clean it and wipe it down. I remove drip tray, shower screen steam wand tip and clean on a weekly basis (did it a few hours ago in fact!) and i scrub the group head clean. I descale the machine once a month.


----------



## momchevk

Kyle T said:


> I flush the portafilter to warm it up whenever i make a coffee. I also flush after ive banged the puck out to clean it and wipe it down. I remove drip tray, shower screen steam wand tip and clean on a weekly basis (did it a few hours ago in fact!) and i scrub the group head clean. I descale the machine once a month.


I also flush the portafilter and collect the hot water in the cup I will be using for the coffee. This way I warm up the portafilter and the cup.

I also found that the brewing temp is not high enough if I don't switch to steam, produce a bit of steam, and then switch back to espresso mode allowing the machine to self purge. After that the temp is ~93° Celsius.

I flush after the coffee preparation as well to get rid of any particles on the shower head.

I am planning to backflush, descale and change the water filter every two months as per the instructions. I use filtered water as well.


----------



## colb16

Me again. Just wondering if anyone had an issue with baskets getting stuck in the group head when you go to remove portafilter? This seems to be happening to me quite a lot recently and I'm not sure if its machine issue or something I'm doing wrong. Only thing I can think of is that I remove the basket each day from portafilter when cleaning but shouldn't think that should be an issue, as I'm sure people could be changing baskets on a daily basis.


----------



## kennyboy993

This happens to me on ecm machine when I turn machine off straight after pulling a shot and then I try to remove around an hour later.

Never happens any other time - something to do with group head cooling down at difference speed to basket perhaps.

To avoid I ensure clean up routine is done before turn off so I don't have to turn back on until next day when everything is stone cold and it isn't sticking

No idea if this is same for u colb though thought might be helpful


----------



## colb16

kennyboy993 said:


> This happens to me on ecm machine when I turn machine off straight after pulling a shot and then I try to remove around an hour later.
> 
> Never happens any other time - something to do with group head cooling down at difference speed to basket perhaps.
> 
> To avoid I ensure clean up routine is done before turn off so I don't have to turn back on until next day when everything is stone cold and it isn't sticking
> 
> No idea if this is same for u colb though thought might be helpful


Thanks Kenny, it's a valid point, although I usually clean up 5-10 mins after and this has only begun to happen recently. Will see how it goes over next few weeks. May contact Sage for their opinion/advice


----------



## filthynines

I think I had this problem once or twice in my nine months or so of ownership, but not in recent memory.


----------



## momchevk

momchevk said:


> I also flush the portafilter and collect the hot water in the cup I will be using for the coffee. This way I warm up the portafilter and the cup.
> 
> I also found that the brewing temp is not high enough if I don't switch to steam, produce a bit of steam, and then switch back to espresso mode allowing the machine to self purge. After that the temp is ~93° Celsius.
> 
> I flush after the coffee preparation as well to get rid of any particles on the shower head.
> 
> I am planning to backflush, descale and change the water filter every two months as per the instructions. I use filtered water as well.


Same here


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## momchevk

colb16 said:


> Me again. Just wondering if anyone had an issue with baskets getting stuck in the group head when you go to remove portafilter? This seems to be happening to me quite a lot recently and I'm not sure if its machine issue or something I'm doing wrong. Only thing I can think of is that I remove the basket each day from portafilter when cleaning but shouldn't think that should be an issue, as I'm sure people could be changing baskets on a daily basis.


I have this from time to time and I found this happens when the portafilter is not well tightened in the group. Probably the basket heats up more quickly than the portafilter and pops up a bit - just a theory. When this happens if I tighten the portafilter well, while the basket is stuck , the basket comes back with it with no issue. Again, just theories.


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## joey24dirt

Has anyone else experienced issues with static build up when steaming milk? The last couple of days I've received a shock when steaming milk then touching the machine. Even though it's only static it still makes you jump haha. I've emailed Sage so I'm still waiting for a response.


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## colb16

While we are asking questions, my mother-in-law decided she wanted to make a coffee one morning while recently staying with us. Somehow she thought after watching us a couple of times she could manage it on her own. Needless to say it did not go well. She forgot to put basket in the portafilter and coffee exploded everywhere. For some reason I'm unable to clean the stains located at the top near the group head. Tried boiling water, washing up liquid etc but nothing is shifting the stains. Don't want to use anything too harsh the may damage the stainless steel. Anyone have any ideas?. Thanks


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## joey24dirt

colb16 said:


> While we are asking questions, my mother-in-law decided she wanted to make a coffee one morning while recently staying with us. Somehow she thought after watching us a couple of times she could manage it on her own. Needless to say it did not go well. She forgot to put basket in the portafilter and coffee exploded everywhere. For some reason I'm unable to clean the stains located at the top near the group head. Tried boiling water, washing up liquid etc but nothing is shifting the stains. Don't want to use anything too harsh the may damage the stainless steel. Anyone have any ideas?. Thanks


You could try some kind of concoction with baking soda/white cleaning vinegar. The wife and I use that to clean the whole house pretty much. Needs to be cleaning vinegar though not just normal white vinegar. I have no idea if it will work or not though lol


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## AndyJH

New owner of a DTP and SGP combo







Coming from many years of Nespresso machines and just getting frustrated of not being able to get a decent americano! Also have an Aeropress which has a bit of fun to play with.

Been doing loads of reading on this forum and almost bought a s/h Gaggia as a result but decided to go new and the DTP seemed to be the best option for my needs. I don't tend to drink cows milk so dual boilers etc. seem a bit overkill and I wanted the grinder separate from the machine so Barista model didn't work for me either.

Started with some fairly disastrous results yesterday afternoon by choking the machine using to fine a grind (I think) but eventually dialled in to something drinkable. Currently using approx. 18g beans (scales only 1g, have new ones on order) and grinding on setting 12, tamping, checking weight and levelling with razor. This is producing about 36-40g coffee in around 30s. Trying to get, and keep, everything warm so flushing water through portafilter, running hot water through wand to raise the machine temp before shot. Seems to be working ok.

Have ordered a Click-mat to check my tamping pressure, thought it would make a good training aid and a lot cheaper than the calibrated tamp.

This thread has been fantastic as it's answered most of the questions I had since starting to play with my new toy







Even though it was discussed earlier in the thread, are people taking out the black plastic part from the portafilter? I was surprised to see it there as I first put everything together but I couldn't find anything in the instructions so assumed it should stay but didn't like the idea of it being there.

My main frustration is having limited time after work to experiment with coffee shots as there is only so much caffeine you can take in before trying to sleep!!


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## MatBat

Congrats on the new set up, it's a great beginners combo.

sounds like you are starting to get your shots dialled in - how's it tasting?

tamping takes a bit of getting used to and I found especially on the 54mm pf it's hard to get it consistently level to start with - keep checking every tamp by holding it up to a light with the razor to check it's level. You will get the hang of that and the Tamp pressure fairly quickly

I took the plastic out, as i think a lot of people do, because I didn't like the idea of having plastic touch the liquid at high temps. It probably does help maintain the heat of the liquid but if you have properly heated the PF beforehand by flushing then it won't really make a difference. So, take it out!

try getting up an hour earlier instead







you'll also then be super charged for work!


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## AndyJH

Thanks and getting there









Taste wise I've had some nasty experiences and some less so, lol. I'm missing a good reference point as I realise my espresso drinking has been limited to my Nespresso machine to which this is worlds apart. Also my beans are still just the ones I have purchased from my local Waitrose, although they are from a roaster who stamps the 'roasted on' date, I can see they are still a few months old. I need a trip to my local roaster in Horsham and do some tasting, buy some beans direct and then I will have a reference point.

Plastic part now removed from the PF, thanks









Hmm, getting up earlier, let me think about that, lol. Might have to give that a try and I might get to work on time. One bonus though is that I'm drinking less coffee at work so its saving me money!


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## MatBat

Good stuff. Horsham coffee roasters are great. Getting freshly roasted beans should make a considerable difference.

I would definitely recommend getting a 53mm motta tamper at some point as an upgrade to the sage one. I did so after about 6 months and it felt much better.


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## AndyJH

Just ordered some beans from Horsham Roasters









I understand that the supplied tamper with the machine is a bit lightweight, how much difference does a better tamper make? Got to get the pressure right first to which I'm hoping the Click-mat will help me with.

Had a try with milk steaming tonight, that was a complete disaster! Heated up far quicker than I was expecting and I didn't seem to get any body to the milk, then probably overheated it. Wand was a real bugger to clean after


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## lake_m

AndyJH said:


> Just ordered some beans from Horsham Roasters
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that the supplied tamper with the machine is a bit lightweight, how much difference does a better tamper make? Got to get the pressure right first to which I'm hoping the Click-mat will help me with.
> 
> Had a try with milk steaming tonight, that was a complete disaster! Heated up far quicker than I was expecting and I didn't seem to get any body to the milk, then probably overheated it. Wand was a real bugger to clean after


Lots of good tutorials on Youtube for milk steaming. Look up the David Schomer - Caffe Latte Art






It's getting on a bit but still a good tutorial.


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## AndyJH

Thanks for this, will start on the next learning curve


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## radam87

Kyle T said:


> I find it slightly confusing with the DTP as its not producing coffee for the first 8-10 seconds so it feels like I'm never getting enough coffee when timing between 25-30 second. Maybe I need to adjust my grind?
> 
> I am also getting quite abit of coffee dripping from the portafilter after ive turned the dial back to standby position. Anyone else getting this?


Did you ever get to the bottom of this? Like you I suspected timing should start when you first see coffee?


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## radam87

So not from first signs of coffee from the PF?


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## MWJB

radam87 said:


> Did you ever get to the bottom of this? Like you I suspected timing should start when you first see coffee?


Time from when you engage the pump, if it takes more than 25-30sec to hit your target it's no big deal.

When you turn the pump off there will be residual pressure, so kill it before you hit your weight & see how many grams it totals after the coffee stops flowing. Then kill the shot at a known weight each time let it run on to your target.


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## Mrboots2u

Time as everyone else does from pump on, when water hits puck and extraction starts.

It's a language, it's universal, easily understood.

You can of course time as you see fit. But it won't be consistent as a descriptor.

You could note a 20second shot from time coffee comes out, will be different for spouts and naked and won't be a measure of whole extraction time.


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## Mr Kirk

Ok so I drilled out my portafilter using a 53mm cutting bit. Drilling down the inside of the portafilter.

There's a slight lip, so if I was to do it again I'd use a 54mm bit and I think it would be a flush cut.

No doubt not as tidy as @joey24dirt but it will do for me.

Scratched the handle as it slipped out of the vice at one point. Almost like I need a reclaimed skateboard handle with matching tamper.


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## joey24dirt

Mr Kirk said:


> Ok so I drilled out my portafilter using a 53mm cutting bit. Drilling down the inside of the portafilter.
> 
> There's a slight lip, so if I was to do it again I'd use a 54mm bit and I think it would be a flush cut.
> 
> No doubt not as tidy as @joey24dirt but it will do for me.
> 
> Scratched the handle as it slipped out of the vice at one point. Almost like I need a reclaimed skateboard handle with matching tamper.


Say the word  the reason I did mine at 52mm was due to wanting to keep the lip. I only have my naked pf so when using cleaning tabs and the rubber disk it can get messy. So when cleaning I put that plastic disk back in so it diverts all the spray through the centre hole. Does that make sense? Lol

Great job though. My first one escaped from the vice also haha. I now use two bits of wood as soft jaws to get a good grip without damaging the finish.


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## Mr Kirk

Ah yes that makes sense.

Hard the get the cut central with a smaller bit, cutting by hand, as I've just found out.


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## joey24dirt

Mr Kirk said:


> Ah yes that makes sense.
> 
> Hard the get the cut central with a smaller bit, cutting by hand, as I've just found out.


It's was all worth it though, you've done a good job. If you have a 80 grit flapper wheel for your drill they are handy for cleaning up the edges.

Have you used it yet?


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## Mr Kirk

joey24dirt said:


> It's was all worth it though, you've done a good job. If you have a 80 grit flapper wheel for your drill they are handy for cleaning up the edges.
> 
> Have you used it yet?


Good idea. I filed the edges to take the rough stuff off.

Yep just used it. 18g dose, 36g shot in 40 seconds. Using Bella barista espresso beans.

Still trying to train my tastebuds but tasted ok to.

But topped it up for an Americano with cream.


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## joey24dirt

Mr Kirk said:


> Good idea. I filed the edges to take the rough stuff off.
> 
> Yep just used it. 18g dose, 36g shot in 40 seconds. Using Bella barista espresso beans.
> 
> Still trying to train my tastebuds but tasted ok to.
> 
> But topped it up for an Americano with cream.


Sounds good. Did you have much spurting? Do you need to wipe down the walls now?


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## Mr Kirk

No, no spurting at all.


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## joey24dirt

Mr Kirk said:


> No, no spurting at all.


Spot on


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