# Water for Coffee



## garydyke1

*
Note from risky: This thread is for discussion of making water for coffee. It's a bit 'sciency'. If you'd rather just mix bottled water you can find on the shelves of your local supermarket, **please join this discussion.* 



Mrboots2u said:


> Fair point with water...
> 
> I think ill try and get to higher EY in my own way and technique and report back
> 
> Using Volvic btw....


Volvic is terrible*. Just saying

*Literally cant use this for filter coffee anymore, would rather go without !


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## Xpenno

garydyke1 said:


> Volvic is terrible*. Just saying
> 
> *Literally cant use this for filter coffee anymore, would rather go without !


Haha, you need to start selling your water mate!


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## Mrboots2u

garydyke1 said:


> Volvic is terrible*. Just saying
> 
> *Literally cant use this for filter coffee anymore, would rather go without !


Well we don't all have access to magic water do we!....I'm not going down the water rabbit hole . I can only use whats available in supermarkets


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## garydyke1

Mrboots2u said:


> Well we don't all have access to magic water do we!....I'm not going down the water rabbit hole . I can only use whats available in supermarkets


Clearview is better dude, and cheaper


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## MWJB

Anything that lands between Volvic & Clearview?


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## Xpenno

MWJB said:


> Anything that lands between Volvic & Clearview?


Not that I've seen and I've seen a few, it's shame that there isn't.

Most bottled waters have really high bicarb levels as it makes them taste smooth hence the lack of options for us.


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## Xpenno

Clearview has a decent ratio of Hardness to Alkalinity, it lacks a little Magnesium but that could be added back pretty easily. The Alkalinity is right on the lower limit of what is ideal but it is within tolerances.

Volvic has ideal Hardness however the Alkalinity is above ideal hence the action of the minerals is muted by the buffers in the solution.


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## garydyke1

Xpenno said:


> Clearview has a decent ratio of Hardness to Alkalinity, it lacks a little Magnesium but that could be added back pretty easily. The Alkalinity is right on the lower limit of what is ideal but it is within tolerances.
> 
> Volvic has ideal Hardness however the Alkalinity is above ideal hence the action of the minerals is muted by the buffers in the solution.


I find you can 'fix' clearview's extracting power with amending another variable (touch finer etc) however Volvic less so.


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## Xpenno

garydyke1 said:


> I find you can 'fix' clearview's extracting power with amending another variable (touch finer etc) however Volvic less so.


At the end of the day the ratios are almost certainly more important than the concentration however at lower concentrations any difference in this ratio would be amplified, at higher concentrations then the ratio would have less effect.


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## Step21

garydyke1 said:


> Clearview is better dude, and cheaper


In 2 Tesco's in Perth last night. No Clearview! Clearly word has got around.


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## Geordie Boy

They never have much of it down here either (normally just takes up a small part of a shelf) compared to Ashbeck which is stacked high. Wish they'd sell them in a multipack


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## jjprestidge

With the amount that some of you on here have spent on equipment, I'm surprised more haven't plumbed in a proper commercial filter, like a Bestmax Premium. I'm happy to offer some advice on choice of filter given your water's chemical composition, if anyone's interested.

JP


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## MWJB

Geordie Boy said:


> They never have much of it down here either (normally just takes up a small part of a shelf) compared to Ashbeck which is stacked high. Wish they'd sell them in a multipack


What actually is the difference between Ashbeck & Clearview.


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## Xpenno

jjprestidge said:


> With the amount that some of you on here have spent on equipment, I'm surprised more haven't plumbed in a proper commercial filter, like a Bestmax Premium. I'm happy to offer some advice on choice of filter given your water's chemical composition, if anyone's interested.
> 
> JP


I think you'll find that people have, although you don't need to plumb just to use a commercial filter at home, you have the option to run off a tap as well. Here in Birmingham we have KH of 2-3 depending on the day and GH of 2-3 depending on the day. I spoke to BWT and their only recommendation (based on my tests results and the water report) was Bestmin and that recommendation came with a bunch a caveats. Anyway it didn't help to the degree that it needed to so I removed it.

I think that if you are in an area with high mineral content then it's much easier to optimise your supply with RO or something like Bestmax Premium, unfortunately some do not have the option. For those that do then I would certainly recommend speaking to JP and seeing if he can help. BWT will also speak to you directly if you are nice to them


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## Xpenno

MWJB said:


> What actually is the difference between Ashbeck & Clearview.


Ashbeck has low Calcium Hardness and Alkalinity. In my tests is doesn't produce great coffee but I guess some of that is down to personal preference, methods used and the coffee itself.

The KH is roughly half of the figure recommended in SCAA water guidelines. This means that at the correct ratio of Calcium Hardness to Alkalinity that your water is very weak, theoretically (and in my tests) you do not end up not extracting as many of the tasty flavour compounds. To add to this the ratio of Hardness provided by Magnesium and Calcium in "ideal" coffee water is 50:50. Ashbeck has 2.5 times more Hardness delivered by Calcium over magnesium. This is not critical, however, the Magnesium brings out the sweetness where calcium brings out the creamyness so in an ideal world an equal mix is desirable.

Clearview is right on the lower limit of the guidelines but has a much more balanced recipe, it lacks a touch of magnesium which can easily be added in if you are willing to spend £20 on some scales and 4.99 for a tube of Epsom Salts from Boots.









Alkalinity is much harder to add back into the system as I've said previously, hence the preference for Clearview out of the bottle.


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## Geordie Boy

As a bonus, Clearview is around half the price of Ashbeck @ 25p for 2l


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## Step21

I got a 200g tub of powdered epsom salts from my local chemist for £1.75.

The five senses article suggests adding 5ml of the Magnesium solution (which IIRC is 12g epsom salts dissolved in 1000ml) to 1000ml of water. What kind of amounts have you been adding to Clearview in your tests?

I did try adding 2ml Mg to 1litre of my tap water and didn't get any improvement. I felt i could taste something of the added salts in the brew. But i don't know the chemical composition of my tap water in the first place, so it was just a shot in the dark.


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## Mrboots2u

Here...


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## mremanxx

Not to seem too nieve...... does it make much difference? I just use normal water from the tap as we live in a soft water area.


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## MWJB

It can make a big difference, make a couple of French presses (exactly the same apart from water used) and A/B them.


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## malling

jjprestidge said:


> With the amount that some of you on here have spent on equipment, I'm surprised more haven't plumbed in a proper commercial filter, like a Bestmax Premium. I'm happy to offer some advice on choice of filter given your water's chemical composition, if anyone's interested.
> 
> JP


I have tried and tested way too many commercial filters over the past few years, and the vast majority are simply not good enough if you are living in an area with very hard water. And you'll need to change your filter 2-4 times a year under such conditions to get premium results.

Reverse Osmosis getting mixed with mineral or tab water is one of the very few things that actually works under such conditions, and these filters is usually rather expensive, take up allot of space, and you really need to know allot about water to be able to use these filtration systems correctly.


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## Phil104

I use Volvic for espresso and Waitrose Essential (fresh from the Stettton Hills) for brewed and it works in the cup for me.


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## Xpenno

Phil104 said:


> I use Volvic for espresso and Waitrose Essential (fresh from the Stettton Hills) for brewed and it works in the cup for me.


Not tried this one, any chance you could post the following info in mg/L from the Waitrose water label please?

Magnesium or Mg

Calcium or Ca

Sodium or Na

Bicarb or Carbonates

pH

TDS (or solids at 180deg or similar)

Cheers

Spence


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## garydyke1

Typical Values	Mg per litre

Calcium	18

Magnesium	4.5

Potassium	0.8

Sodium	12

Bicarbonate	39

Chloride	26

Fluoride

Sulphate	17.5

Nitrate	7.8

Dry Residue	110

pH	6.7


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## Xpenno

I can see how that would work for brewed.

Below ideal Alkalinity but lowish Magnesium (which generally extracts sweetness but without correct alkalinity things start to taste nasty/malic). Lots of Calcium should result in a creamy brew. If the Magnesium was higher then it wouldn't work as well.

I wouldn't have thought this would work well for espresso at all, good choice on the Volvic.


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## garydyke1

I used to use Waitrose for brewed , you could do a lot worse


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## MWJB

Which widely available water will extract fastest/most aggressively?


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## Step21

MWJB said:


> Which widely available water will extract fastest/most aggressively?


Would this not be the one with the highest magnesium levels? I suspect that is too simplistic though...

Evian which is widely available is highish on Mg (24mg/l) but it also has very high bicarbonate (357mg/l), Vittel (20mg/l)

There are others with higher Mg content but doubt they are widely available. Badoit (85mg/l), Abbey Well (36mg/l)


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## Xpenno

MWJB said:


> Which widely available water will extract fastest/most aggressively?


Just out of interest what are you trying to achieve? Are you still trying to make something drinkable or are you just trying to extract as much as possible?


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## MWJB

Extract to the max, quickly, in a low agitation immersion, whilst still tasty.


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## garydyke1

MWJB said:


> Extract to the max, quickly, in a low agitation immersion, whilst still tasty.


360ppm roastery water. Yours for £190 per litre


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## Xpenno

MWJB said:


> Extract to the max, quickly, in a low agitation immersion, whilst still tasty.


Right, I've not tested anything to this so am just basing on figures in a spreadsheet and a probably incorrect very basic knowledge of water....

With the above statement in mind, Evian seems like it should be a beast! Main downside is scale but that wasn't a requirement here. It lacks a bit of Magnesium TBH but it has a General Hardness of 17 and Carbonate Hardness of 7. On paper it's similar in proportions to Has Bean's water but I don't know what minerals are in HB water. The reason that I've put it forward is that is has one of the highest rations of General Hardness to Carbonate Hardness and one of the highest concentrations. What I don't fully understand is that even though the ratio of buffer to hardness is OK whether having buffer over a certain figure has a detrimental effect on the resulting drink. Worth giving it a go if you're happy with the scale.


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## Step21

Got some Clearview today - comparing it to Volvic below, the main differerence seems to be the bicarb or alkalinity.

Calcium: 15mg/l, Volvic 12

Mg: 5g/l, Volvic 8

Sodium: 9g/l, 12g/l

Bicarb: 45mg/l, 74

What would happen if you made a 50/50 mix of the two? Looks to me on paper that that might improve things all round?


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## garydyke1

Step21 said:


> Got some Clearview today - comparing it to Volvic below, the main differerence seems to be the bicarb or alkalinity.
> 
> Calcium: 15mg/l, Volvic 12
> 
> Mg: 5g/l, Volvic 8
> 
> Sodium: 9g/l, 12g/l
> 
> Bicarb: 45mg/l, 74
> 
> What would happen if you made a 50/50 mix of the two? Looks to me on paper that that might improve things all round?


Water blending I absolutely encourage ; )


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## Xpenno

Step21 said:


> Got some Clearview today - comparing it to Volvic below, the main differerence seems to be the bicarb or alkalinity.
> 
> Calcium: 15mg/l, Volvic 12
> 
> Mg: 5g/l, Volvic 8
> 
> Sodium: 9g/l, 12g/l
> 
> Bicarb: 45mg/l, 74
> 
> What would happen if you made a 50/50 mix of the two? Looks to me on paper that that might improve things all round?


There's only one way to find that out!


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## Xpenno

TBH I'm starting to wonder if 50/50 Mg/Ca is actually ideal for me. With 50/50 it seems really easy to overextract and end up with something that is really drying on the tongue. I can't work out if it's Magnesium or the fact that I'm adding in Sulphates or just that I'm crap at making coffee









That mix doesn't seem ideal on paper but who says the current understanding of ideal is actually ideal.

You would be getting 3.4 GH to 2.3 KH and the current definition of ideal says you want 2:1 GH:KH. I would still give it a go and see what you end up with, who's to say the you won't like it!


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## garydyke1

Xpenno said:


> TBH I'm starting to wonder if 50/50 Mg/Ca is actually ideal for me. With 50/50 it seems really easy to overextract and end up with something that is really drying on the tongue. I can't work out if it's Magnesium or the fact that I'm adding in Sulphates or just that I'm crap at making coffee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That mix doesn't seem ideal on paper but who says the current understanding of ideal is actually ideal.
> 
> You would be getting 3.4 GH to 2.3 KH and the current definition of ideal says you want 2:1 GH:KH. I would still give it a go and see what you end up with, who's to say the you won't like it!


In home-brew excessive sulphate additions are noticeable in the end product, doesn't take much to ruin good beer (even if the spreadsheets have told you its needed).

Ive yet to have a cup of coffee brewed with 'amended' water which didn't have a weird aftertaste / sensation a few minutes after tasting, even tho the initial cup was nice.

Clearview + roastery water is the benchmark for me . Its fun to play with ratios based on the coffee used , usually only impacting mouthfeel and perceived acidity.


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## fluffles

Xpenno said:


> With 50/50 it seems really easy to overextract and end up with something that is really drying on the tongue.


Drying on the tongue is always something I've associated with under-extraction


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## fluffles

Xpenno said:


> Right, I've not tested anything to this so am just basing on figures in a spreadsheet and a probably incorrect very basic knowledge of water....
> 
> With the above statement in mind, Evian seems like it should be a beast!


I know for a fact that Maxwell has said Evian makes really bad coffee. He said that water he likes to drink as water (Evian) makes for poor coffee and water he doesn't so much as water (e.g. Volvic) is better suited to coffee.

I'm willing to defer to his knowledge and experience on this one


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## Xpenno

fluffles said:


> Drying on the tongue is always something I've associated with under-extraction


Yeah, not really sure, I'm still not even a novice at brewed yet, happily corrected.


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## Xpenno

garydyke1 said:


> In home-brew excessive sulphate additions are noticeable in the end product, doesn't take much to ruin good beer (even if the spreadsheets have told you its needed).
> 
> Ive yet to have a cup of coffee brewed with 'amended' water which didn't have a weird aftertaste / sensation a few minutes after tasting, even tho the initial cup was nice.
> 
> Clearview + roastery water is the benchmark for me . Its fun to play with ratios based on the coffee used , usually only impacting mouthfeel and perceived acidity.


Totally agree, it's like you are messing with a natural balance or something. I might just have to come and raid the Roastery


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## garydyke1

Xpenno said:


> Yeah, not really sure, I'm still not even a novice at brewed yet, happily corrected.


The refrac will reveal all


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## Xpenno

fluffles said:


> I know for a fact that Maxwell has said Evian makes really bad coffee. He said that water he likes to drink as water (Evian) makes for poor coffee and water he doesn't so much as water (e.g. Volvic) is better suited to coffee.
> 
> I'm willing to defer to his knowledge and experience on this one


Lol, I don't confess to know more than a real scientist and a professional Barista! I'm just looking at figures and basing my responses on those. Evian has a very high bicarbonate level so you you wouldn't want to use it in your espresso machine. I don't really have the knowledge to backup my statement and as I said it was a big assumption. I'm sort of presuming that 1ppm of buffer offsets 1ppm of hardness. It's possible that this is completely incorrect and that the two are not linked like that. SCAA tells us that the water should have low mineral content so it goes against that for sure. However most of the brew methods we use involve pressure or agitation during the brew. MWJB was looking to extract more with little agitation in a small amount of time hence my recommendation for the water with the highest difference in ppm between bicarb and hardness as calcium.


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## Xpenno

garydyke1 said:


> The refrac will reveal all


Agreed, should be able to get some quality hands on time with it this weekend


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## MWJB

fluffles said:


> Drying on the tongue is always something I've associated with under-extraction


Possible I guess, but drying & astringent, in a smokey, ashy way (can be pithy too) is usually overextraction. You can get a roasty, carbony, iron like flavour between humps of good extraction, but this is often before another sweet spot & within nominal parameters.

French press & cupping are really hard to overextract.


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## Step21

Xpenno said:


> TBH I'm starting to wonder if 50/50 Mg/Ca is actually ideal for me. With 50/50 it seems really easy to overextract and end up with something that is really drying on the tongue. I can't work out if it's Magnesium or the fact that I'm adding in Sulphates or just that I'm crap at making coffee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That mix doesn't seem ideal on paper but who says the current understanding of ideal is actually ideal.
> 
> You would be getting 3.4 GH to 2.3 KH and the current definition of ideal says you want 2:1 GH:KH. I would still give it a go and see what you end up with, who's to say the you won't like it!


Does that mean then that an "ideal" water would have exactly equal concentrations of Calcium and Magnesium per mg/l?


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## Step21

garydyke1 said:


> The refrac will reveal all


Yes it would be good to get some objectivity.

With the current bean i'm brewing (this weeks IMM). The best brew has been with tap water. 2nd 50/50 Clearview/Volvic. Didn't get a good one with 100% Clearview but ran out of bean. I'm finding that with different waters you need to change the grind slightly and make allowances for poor skills!

As of yet i've never had a good brew by adding epsom salts and/or bicarbonate and suspect i never will.

I've also noted that the Maxwell research states that you should match the water to the roast and that no one water will be optimal.

I think the filter probably causes taste differences. I beginning to suspect that the chemex paper filter seems to impart a slightly drying effect.


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## Xpenno

Step21 said:


> Does that mean then that an "ideal" water would have exactly equal concentrations of Calcium and Magnesium per mg/l?


I don't think so from my research and conversations. The 50/50 is based on mg/L as Calcium Hardness. If you divide your Ca mg/L by 1.7 then that's the Magnesium figure that your after to get 50/50. I'll try and do a post on calculating all of this stuff, it's pretty easy to do I've just not had the time and if everyone can work on making water better then the quicker we can get to the best solution for home







I'll do it this weekend!


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## fluffles

I've been brewing Rave El Bosque all week on the Kalita Wave. Until today I'd used Volvic and was feeling it was a bit over and gradually been backing off on the grind. Prompted by this thread I picked up a bottle of Clearview for today and the result is definitely not over-extracted... if anything a bit the other way.

I think Clearview extracts more slowly (which tallies with the numbers as it contains less Mg and Ca) and this emphasizes the need to develop your method/recipe according to your water. All these brew guides which say "steep aeropress for 1 minute" or "pourover aim for 250g water in 3 minutes" is really too prescriptive as it doesn't take into account the water.


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## MWJB

fluffles said:


> All these brew guides which say "steep aeropress for 1 minute" or "pourover aim for 250g water in 3 minutes" is really too prescriptive as it doesn't take into account the water.


Well these are all guides, describing a basic, ball-park method, to be fine tuned to taste with grind. Indeed, they don't take into account 'non standard' water, nor roast level, nor bean solubility. If you want to be specific there's the VST.

I'd be interested to know if, for a given bean/grind/time/pourover method, someone can shift from mid box extraction to over/under just by switching water?


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## Mrboots2u

MWJB said:


> Well these are all guides, describing a basic, ball-park method, to be fine tuned to taste with grind. Indeed, they don't take into account 'non standard' water, nor roast level, nor bean solubility. If you want to be specific there's the VST.
> 
> I'd be interested to know if, for a given bean/grind/time/pourover method, someone can shift from mid box extraction to over/under just by switching water?


Like form clear view to volvic.....and a v60 ?


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## MWJB

Mrboots2u said:


> Like form clear view to volvic.....and a v60 ?


Yeah, like that...bottled mineral vs bottled mineral vs tap.

Not saying that even at the same yield they will taste the same, but more curious about how much they can vary yield, with a controlled extraction. Would probably take a few brews with each to determine a baseline....if anyone's particularly bored...;-)


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## Xpenno

Just made a hybrid water 80/20+

80% Clearview

20% Volvic

3ml my stock MgSO4 solution added to 500ml

Water specs are

Alkalinity 41.5mg/L

Calcium Hardness 69.5mg/L (45/55 Mg/Ca split)

TDS 110

Chemex with latest IMM (Gary Method)

Great body and taste, first chemex with the coffee but it tasted great, loads of chocolate and nuts, great acidity and a little sweetness. More experiments tomorrow...


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## MWJB

Today's grudge match...

In the red corner, brew #1 16:301.4g - Volvic (12mg/l Calcium, 8mg/l Magnesium, 74mg/l Bicarbonate, 130mg/l dry residue, PH7 ).

In the blue corner, brew #2 16:303g - Evian (80mg/l Calcium, 20mg/l Magnesium, 360mg/l Bicarbonate, 309mg/l dry residue, PH7.2).

Both French press, water added 1min of boil, grounds well wetted with pour, no further agitation. TDS'd at 9min, then skimmed & TDS'd again at 19min.

Volvic hit 1.14%TDS 22.9%EY at 9min, no measurable change at 19min. Juicy, sweet, fairly representative of tasting notes. Pretty much bang on anticipated target (bearing in mind Volvic is my default brew water).

Evian hit 1.21%TDS 24.5%EY at 9min, 1.24%TDS & 25%EY at 19min. Flat, little acidity, generic, no apparent origin shining through. Wouldn't recognise it as the same coffee...this isn't a subtle difference I reckon anyone would immediately taste it. Maxwell described exactly this in his Tamper Tantrum talk (chalky, dry finish)...I suppose I could always drink the rest of the Evian & not brew with it. ;-)

So, in answer to my own question, yes, you can see a +/- 2%EY shift just by changing water, I suspect (like Maxwell says) that the EY is not solely responsible for the flavour shift. Xpenno was also right regarding the Evian's extracting power, but the effect on flavour makes it a non-starter for coffee brewing.

And now...washing up...:-(


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## aaronb

Interesting!


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## Step21

I came across Glaceau water the other day and wondered about it suitability for brewed (maybe as a mixer)?

It seems to be distilled spring water with added magnesium chloride 15mg, calcium chloride 10mg, potassium bicarbonate 10mg and a tds of 35ppm.


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## MWJB

Step21 said:


> I came across Glaceau water the other day and wondered about it suitability for brewed (maybe as a mixer)?
> 
> It seems to be distilled spring water with added magnesium chloride 15mg, calcium chloride 10mg, potassium bicarbonate 10mg and a tds of 35ppm.


I meant to get some earlier in the week, Waitrose was out though.


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## Step21

I bought it as a multipack of 12 600ml bottles for drinking - not coffee! (was on offer in Asda). It was only after actually looking carefully at it i wondered about it's potential use in brewed. It doesn't actually list the amounts of mineral content on the bottle.


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## Xpenno

Side-by-side test today of Waitrose essential, Brecon Carreg (from Waitrose), Clearview and Volvic. The test was using the cupping method described by Prufrock in their blog.

Evaluation was based on sensory info alone, no refracting I'm afraid as this wasn't really related to what I was trying to find out. I also realise that cupping is not really designed to to evaluate water so please take the results with a pinch of salt









Volvic didn't really do much for me at all, it really lacks body, smoothness and you end up with a cup that lacks in so many ways.

Clearview was a slight improvement over Volvic, it really lacked body but was more balanced in flavour than Volvic.

Brecon Carreg had more body and creamyness to it but there was a slight drying chalky vibe to it. It was a very dull cup with no real flavours shining through.

Waitrose Essential had a great balance of body vs acidty. Nice and creamy, all the expected fruit notes were there really tasty.

Following the test I brewed a quick Kalita cup with the Waitrose and it made the best brewed cup I've had in a while at home, it shared many of the attributes of the cupping but much cleaner, probably a little over extracted at 1.45 TDS (20.81% EY) but that's almost certainly my fault. More tests using the Chemex are required tomorrow. I've got a few other waters that need to be tested as well.

So looking at the water specs it kind of makes sense.

Alkalinity of 32mg/L (SCAA Ideal is 40)

Calcium Hardness of 63.9mg/L (SCAA ideal is 68)

TDS of 110 (SCAA ideal 150)

Na of 12mg/L (SCAA ideal 10 or less) More Na can result taste by adding a slight enhancement in sweetness.

Maxwell recommends a 2:1 ratio of Calcium Hardness to Alkalinity measured as CaCO3 in mg/L. This water has a ratio of 1.998:1.

If it had a little more TDS and a very slight increase in Alkalinity then it would be bang on









Coffee was this weeks Has Bean IMM.


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## The Systemic Kid

Excellent work, Sepnce.


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## Xpenno

Oh yeah and one other thing worth noting is that the labels on the bottles of some of the water can be quite a long way off from the actual measured values









Both Clearview and Evian I measured yesterday and they were quite a bit off what the bottle said with regards to Hardness and Alkalinity.


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## MWJB

Today's grudge match...French press...

In the red corner, brew #1 16:301.5g - Waitrose Essential

In the blue corner, brew #2 16:305g - Fiji

Kettle 1 min off boil, pour the only agitation, covered & steeped for 19min, first 40ml or so poured off, then TDS taken. Brew poured through mesh no plunge.

Waitrose Essential...as the common consensus (Gary, Xpenno) vibrant acidity, delicious, fruity 1.14%TDS ~23%EY (not at home so +/- a bit) same yield as Volvic yesterday, but definitely brighter & livelier. My new default brew water, I feel a bit of a fool not having adopted it earlier.

Fiji - Similar in terms of Calcium & Magnesium content, but 4x the Bicarbonates, (no dry residue quoted) brew came in at 1.21%TDS 24.5%EY, similar territory to Evian but much, much better flavourwise...origin character still very much there but creamy rather than bright/lively, a good extractor, personally I prefer Volvic a little over this, Waitrose Essential a noticable step up over Volvic, but Fiji may work for those who aren't seeking highlighted acidity & want a more rounded brew? I couldn't say it is a bad brewing water, it works as long as you know what you're getting into.


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## aaronb

So is the waitrose essential better for both brewed and espresso than volvic?

I'll give it a go if so once my current supplies are used up


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## The Systemic Kid

Been using Volvic for brewed and been pretty happy with the results but am definitely going to give Waitrose Essential a go after reading Spence's findings.


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## Xpenno

aaronb said:


> So is the waitrose essential better for both brewed and espresso than volvic?
> 
> I'll give it a go if so once my current supplies are used up


All my tests so far have been with brewed as it's a pain in the arse changing out the water in the espresso machine. From information I got off people in the know they suggest that espresso can take higher Bicarb level so volvic comes back into play. The problem is that the TDS is lower than Waitrose so your shots could lack body and mouthfeel.

I've made a couple of findings this weekend, one was another calculation error, I would double counting a correction for alkalinity in my spreadsheet as I'd got two pieces of information from two sources and I'd added them together not realising that they were doing the same thing. I've also made some better progress on optimising existing water which I thought I was doing correctly but really wasn't. I've some more indepth calculations on all of the various waters and I'm starting to see patterns in those that seem to make better tasting coffee, those that taste chalky and those that result in weak tasteless brew. My brews in general have been much better today based on this new info. I've got some work to do tiding up everything to make it presentable and shareable. At the moment I seem to have reasonable way of predicting whether or not the water will work for coffee.


----------



## Xpenno

MWJB said:


> Today's grudge match...French press...
> 
> In the red corner, brew #1 16:301.5g - Waitrose Essential
> 
> In the blue corner, brew #2 16:305g - Fiji
> 
> Kettle 1 min off boil, pour the only agitation, covered & steeped for 19min, first 40ml or so poured off, then TDS taken. Brew poured through mesh no plunge.
> 
> Waitrose Essential...as the common consensus (Gary, Xpenno) vibrant acidity, delicious, fruity 1.14%TDS ~23%EY (not at home so +/- a bit) same yield as Volvic yesterday, but definitely brighter & livelier. My new default brew water, I feel a bit of a fool not having adopted it earlier.
> 
> Fiji - Similar in terms of Calcium & Magnesium content, but 4x the Bicarbonates, (no dry residue quoted) brew came in at 1.21%TDS 24.5%EY, similar territory to Evian but much, much better flavourwise...origin character still very much there but creamy rather than bright/lively, a good extractor, personally I prefer Volvic a little over this, Waitrose Essential a noticable step up over Volvic, but Fiji may work for those who aren't seeking highlighted acidity & want a more rounded brew? I couldn't say it is a bad brewing water, it works as long as you know what you're getting into.


Hi MWJB, any chance you could post up the specs for Fiji please? I'll see if it fits the profile for dull tasting brews.


----------



## aaronb

OK looking forward to seeing the results when you feel ready/happy to share them!


----------



## MWJB

Xpenno said:


> Hi MWJB, any chance you could post up the specs for Fiji please? I'll see if it fits the profile for dull tasting brews.


Not at home just now. But from Wiki:

Calcium 18

Magnesium 14

TDS 220

PH 7.8

Bicarb I recall as being a shade under 150? Will confirm tomorrow eve.


----------



## Xpenno

MWJB said:


> Not at home just now. But from Wiki:
> 
> Calcium 18
> 
> Magnesium 14
> 
> TDS 220
> 
> PH 7.8
> 
> Bicarb I recall as being a shade under 150? Will confirm tomorrow eve.


If those figures are correct then it falls into my dull, low acidity theoretical taste category. Good news, means I could be on to something


----------



## fluffles

Xpenno said:


> Maxwell recommends a 2:1 ratio of Calcium Hardness to Alkalinity measured as CaCO3 in mg/L. This water has a ratio of 1.998:1.


Can you expand on what you mean by calcium hardness here? What calculation are you doing to get that ratio?

I have a piece of paper in front of me with Maxwell's handwriting on it - it basically says:

General Hardness (GH) = magnesium + calcium

Temporary Hardness (KH) = alkalinity = bicarbonate

Ideal water is double GH to KH.

Most bottled water tends to be the other way round, i.e. double KH to GH.


----------



## fluffles

Here's another one to throw into the ring - Wilko's spring water:

Calcium 7

Magnesium 2

Bicarbonate 11

Dry residue 180C 60

pH 6.5

Quite low numbers across the board, but a low bicarbonate relative to the others. Xpenno what do you think?

The Glaceau stuff sounds interesting, anyone tried it?


----------



## Xpenno

fluffles said:


> Here's another one to throw into the ring - Wilko's spring water:
> 
> Calcium 7
> 
> Magnesium 2
> 
> Bicarbonate 11
> 
> Dry residue 180C 60
> 
> pH 6.5
> 
> Quite low numbers across the board, but a low bicarbonate relative to the others. Xpenno what do you think?
> 
> The Glaceau stuff sounds interesting, anyone tried it?


Doesn't look promising









I would probably lack body and taste harsh, chemically and possibly chalky/drying on the mouth. I would always urge people to give it a go though as my stuff is work in progress


----------



## Xpenno

fluffles said:


> Can you expand on what you mean by calcium hardness here? What calculation are you doing to get that ratio?
> 
> I have a piece of paper in front of me with Maxwell's handwriting on it - it basically says:
> 
> General Hardness (GH) = magnesium + calcium
> 
> Temporary Hardness (KH) = alkalinity = bicarbonate
> 
> Ideal water is double GH to KH.
> 
> Most bottled water tends to be the other way round, i.e. double KH to GH.


Technically what he's saying is correct however the values written on the bottle are in mg/L (or ppm, same thing) and Hardness is expressed as mg/L Calcium Carbonate. To do a quick and dirty conversion then the following would be true

General Hardness = (Magnesium mg/L * 4.2) + (Calcium mg/L * 2.5)

Alkalinity = Bicarb mg/L x 0.82

Once you've converted to Hardenss as CaCO3 then you can divide down. What I will say is that my findings don't agree completely with Maxwell's 2:1 ratio. I think there are other factors (Temporary Hardness) in the mix and that's what I'm looking at now.

Even if my research amounts to nothing at the end of the day, it's been really interested


----------



## MWJB

MWJB said:


> Not at home just now. But from Wiki:
> 
> Calcium 18
> 
> Magnesium 14
> 
> TDS 220
> 
> PH 7.8
> 
> Bicarb I recall as being a shade under 150? Will confirm tomorrow eve.


Fiji Bicarbonate 153mg/l


----------



## MWJB

Anyone seen any Minton water, never seen a bottle, but found something that suggests almost no bicarbonates (0.1mg/l), wondering if it's a typo?


----------



## fluffles

Epic fail for the SmartWater Glaceau - tried it this morning and it was a 'tip down the sink' job!


----------



## MWJB

fluffles said:


> Epic fail for the SmartWater Glaceau - tried it this morning and it was a 'tip down the sink' job!


It may work better mixed with another water (too soft on its own), maybe one that on its own doesn't look so good? Maybe try half & half with Volvic, Highland Spring or Ty Nant, or 3-4 parts Aqua pura to 1 part Glaceau? 1 part each Glaceau, Decantae & Aqua Pura? Just suggestions, no guarantees.


----------



## Xpenno

MWJB said:


> Anyone seen any Minton water, never seen a bottle, but found something that suggests almost no bicarbonates (0.1mg/l), wondering if it's a typo?


Never seen it, but no bicarb is not good as your pH will divebomb during the coffee extraction and probably not come back to normal. Sounds like a typo but could be legit I guess. Maybe they mineralised distilled water?


----------



## Xpenno

fluffles said:


> Epic fail for the SmartWater Glaceau - tried it this morning and it was a 'tip down the sink' job!


Do you have the specs mate? I'm building a water calculation spreadsheet and I'm collecting info from as many waters as possible.


----------



## fluffles

Xpenno said:


> Do you have the specs mate? I'm building a water calculation spreadsheet and I'm collecting info from as many waters as possible.


No they don't list the specs, they just say its distilled water with added Mg/Ca/Bicarb (doesn't say in what quantities). Look forward to your findings!


----------



## MWJB

From Wiki

"Smartwater is distilled water and electrolytes with 10 mg of calcium, 15 mg of magnesium, and 10 mg of potassium per liter.[citation needed] It is available in 600 mL, 700 mL, 850 mL, 1 L, 1.5 L, and 20 oz bottles."

Sure I have more info at home, will check later.


----------



## Step21

Post 56?


----------



## Xpenno

Just drinking Has Bean David Vilca Washed Chemex made with "optimised" Waitrose. As soon as I pulled out the filter paper I knew it was good, I was greeted by the smell of walnuts, clear as day! Mega thick body, really nice light acidity. It's a very clean cup but complex at the same time, I might have slightly over extracted as I'm getting a tiny bit of drying on the tongue.

Garymex all-in-one method

Water Specs (based on SCAA/Maxwell specs)

GH 90

50/50 Ca/Mg Ratio

Alk 51.8

Estimated TDS 144.7

Estimated pH 7.1

I'm just working on a spreadsheet that automatically "optimises" water based on 3 stock solutions and a series of variables. Oh yeah, I really don't have a life


----------



## chime101

I always use the cheap supermarket water as it reduces the need need for descaling. Am I misinformed ?


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Yes. You need to check the water's composition. They aren't all the same.


----------



## Geordie Boy

Also depends where you live. For example Birmingham and Manchester have very soft water to start with so the vast majority of bottled stuff is actually harder, though the tap water will include stuff like fluoride


----------



## chinery

You guys are doing great work. I'm sure I speak for many when I say I'd love to see that spreadsheet when you're done Xpenno!

Also I'm sure Maxwell would be happy to chat to anyone who pops in when the shop isn't too busy.

Glad to read that Waitrose Essential is getting a good write up here. I've been very occasionally mentioning it in various threads on here for months







.


----------



## Xpenno

Spreadsheet will be made available , hopefully it will deliver some benefit.


----------



## Daren

Proud to be a nerd


----------



## Step21

I managed to get some of the holy water and brewed up my first french press with Waitrose essentials Stretton Hills. I've already had 2 FP's with this bean using a Clearview/Volvic 70/30 mix which were good. But...

It does make a difference, absolutely. More sweetness and less inclined to pull out the nastier elements?

The only problem with this water is that up here in Scotland, Waitrose has a very limited presence. Glasgow/Edinburgh/Stirling as far as i know. For me, Stirling is a 24mile round trip. So, it would definitely be good to know how to enhance other more widely available bottled waters.


----------



## MWJB

Try 2 parts Aqua Pura to 1 part Volvic? Not tried it, but composition seems a close-ish match.


----------



## MWJB

...or 5-6 parts Duchy original to 1 part Strathmore?


----------



## Step21

Thought i'd add Deeside to the database

Calcium:4 mg/l

Mg: 3

Sodium:6

Bicarb:26

Dry residue/TDS: 60

PH: 6.1

Almost a 1:1 GH:Alkalinity (similar to Volvic)


----------



## MWJB

Haven't tried either of these permutations yet (this weekend's coffee will be brewed 3 parts Glaceau:1 part Fiji:1 part Highland Spring), but the following look good numbers wise, for "off the shelf" water?

4 parts Glaceau to 1 part Abbey Well.

4 parts Glaceau to 1 part Strathmore.


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> Haven't tried either of these permutations yet (this weekend's coffee will be brewed 3 parts Glaceau:1 part Fiji:1 part Highland Spring), but the following look good numbers wise, for "off the shelf" water?
> 
> 4 parts Glaceau to 1 part Abbey Well.
> 
> 4 parts Glaceau to 1 part Strathmore.


I've just realised that Glaceau is no more than distilled Abbey Well! So it's an intriguing combo.

What i'm not sure about is that by my calculations (using Xpenno's conversions to General Hardness and alkalinity) - Glaceau comes out at a ratio of over 10:1 (GH:Alk) and Strathmore at approx 1.5:1. My understanding is that somewhere around 2:1 is the best ratio. 4 parts Glaceau to 1 Strathmore isn't going to be anywhere near that, so i can't see it working. But i may well be missing something?


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> I've just realised that Glaceau is no more than distilled Abbey Well! So it's an intriguing combo.
> 
> What i'm not sure about is that by my calculations (using Xpenno's conversions to General Hardness and alkalinity) - Glaceau comes out at a ratio of over 10:1 (GH:Alk) and Strathmore at approx 1.5:1. My understanding is that somewhere around 2:1 is the best ratio. 4 parts Glaceau to 1 Strathmore isn't going to be anywhere near that, so i can't see it working. But i may well be missing something?


Glaceau/Strathmore works out ~1:1 (as Glaceau Abbey Well) according to Maxwell's note earlier in the thread...2:1 with enough bicarb & TDS doesn't look doable off the shelf. Will post make up later.








[/url]








[/url]

Ashbeck, Clearview, Cumbrian, Aqua Pura - all from the same source (Armathwaite) but different quoted composition, likewise Deeside & Duchy Original...there are only so many sources in the UK, several brands typically share the same source.


----------



## MWJB

Essential Waitrose vs 2 parts Glaceau & 1 part Fiji (almost equal Mg 15mg/l & Ca 13mg/l, 58mg/l Bicarbonate, 100mg/l dry residue, all quoted figs).

French press, 16:308.5, very fine grind, 19 min steep, water 1 min off boil

Essential Waitrose a shade sweeter juicier, better finish, the Glaceau/Fiji water was close but still a hint of dry/chalkiness, short finish...maybe still too much bicarb?

Despite the higher bicarb, the Glaceau/Fiji mix was a lower yield (1.19% TDS vs 1.24%TDS for Essential W). From the taste, I'd have put the yields in reverse.


----------



## Xpenno

Nearly done!!!

Pre-Optimisation










Post Optimisation


----------



## Geordie Boy

MWJB said:


> Ashbeck, Clearview, Cumbrian, Aqua Pura - all from the same source (Armathwaite) but different quoted composition, likewise Deeside & Duchy Original...there are only so many sources in the UK, several brands typically share the same source.


This is a bit old but it gives a bit more of an idea for who shares what sources

http://collections.europarchive.org/tna/20101209122142/http://www.food.gov.uk/enforcement/sectorrules/mineralwaters


----------



## Xpenno

MWJB said:


> Ashbeck, Clearview, Cumbrian, Aqua Pura - all from the same source (Armathwaite) but different quoted composition, likewise Deeside & Duchy Original...there are only so many sources in the UK, several brands typically share the same source.


I've not tested a bottle yet that exactly matched the figures on the bottle. It's just a guide and some are off by a country mile (Evian for example).


----------



## Geordie Boy

I've often wondered that. There's no way every bottle will match what's on the label, it can only show what was tested on a particular date


----------



## Xpenno

Geordie Boy said:


> I've often wondered that. There's no way every bottle will match what's on the label, it can only show what was tested on a particular date


Apart from testing every bottle which seems like massive overkill I'm not sure if there is an answer to this.


----------



## Step21

Ran out of waitrose essentials. Now trying a 50/50 blend of Clearview/Strathmore and getting some great results.


----------



## MWJB

Just tried Essential Waitrose vs 4 parts Glaceau:1 part Strathmore (see post #96)...identical extraction & perhaps too close to call flavour-wise.


----------



## SZA

Xpenno said:


> Nearly done!!!
> 
> Pre-Optimisation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Post Optimisation


So...what happened to sharing the document!?









I've been following this thread with great interest and really learnt a lot. Also, it really helped me identify the best cheap bottled water to get for brewed coffee where I live (Denmark). Unfortunately we do not have anything remotely similar to Clearview or Waitrose...









We do have one brand with very low mineral levels, though, in terms of calcium carbonate hardness, and with reasonable bicarbonate level. So I was wondering what peoples experiences with adding back minerals are, in form of for instance epsom salt, or similar? Is that actually working, and how do you go about it?


----------



## Xpenno

SZA said:


> So...what happened to sharing the document!?


I sent it to a couple of people for feedback and didn't get any so I just presumed that it was too complicated, too much faff, unusable or just unnecessary. PM me and I'll send you a copy.



SZA said:


> We do have one brand with very low mineral levels, though, in terms of calcium carbonate hardness, and with reasonable bicarbonate level. So I was wondering what peoples experiences with adding back minerals are, in form of for instance epsom salt, or similar? Is that actually working, and how do you go about it?


Since my previous posts I've pretty much given up on bottled water as the labels are not accurate in most cases. I'm now making water from scratch with and RO filter and 3 stock solutions.

Solution 1 - Magnesium Sulphate (Epsom Salts) - 36.86g added to 1L of RO

Solution 2 - Calcium Chloride - 51.66g added to 1L of RO

Solution 3 - Sodium Bicarbonate - 37.5g added to 1L of RO

I then add

Solution 1 - 2.7ml

Solution 2 - 1.2ml

Solution 3 - 1.8ml

per litre of RO water to make up the following specs brew water

82 mg/L Calcium Hardness (1:1 Mg/Ca ratio)

40 mg/L Alkalinity

TDS 138 mg/L

It took me a long time to get to a place where I was happy and it turns out that it wasn't to do with the water as such. The tap water here is crap and I'd previously been using volvic. The problem I was getting was a really bad drying and almost chemical after-taste when brewing coffee with my modified water. It turns out that the new water was allowing me to extract much more efficiently and I was over-extracting really badly. Since with my crap water I was unable to extract to the same degree I had never experienced this before so never even thought that it might be over extraction, could be an EK43 thing. I have since lowered my coffee to water ratio from 0.06g per ml to 0.054g per ml as a starting point and everything great, I'm also using a lot less coffee









Spence


----------



## risky

I thought I would revive this because of the renewed interest recently in water.

Spence I would be really interested in the spreadsheet if you still have it?

Some more to add to the database if they're not already in it:

Buxton

Calcium 55

Magnesium 19

Potassium 1

Sodium 24

Bicarbonate 248

Chloride 37

Sulphite 13

Nitrate 0.1

Dry Residue at 180c 280

pH at Source 7.4

Ballygowan

Calcium 114

Magnesium 16

Sodium 15

Potassium 3

Bicarbonate 400 (Yikes!)

Chloride 28

Sulphite 15

Nitrate 9

pH at Source 7

Tesco Perthshire

Calcium 60

Magnesium 16

Sodium 13

Potassium 1.5

Bicarbonate 230

Chloride 11

Sulphite 8

Nitrate 3

Dry Residue at 180c 200

pH at Source 7.6

Highland Spring

Calcium 40.5

Magnesium 10.1

Sodium 5.6

Potassium 0.7

Bicarbonate 150

Chloride 6.1

Sulphite 5.3

Nitrate 3.1

Dry Residue at 180c 170

Strathmore

Calcium 87

Magnesium 15

Sodium 56

Potassium 2.2

Bicarbonate 145

Chloride 155 (Seems ludicrously high?)

Sulphite 1

Nitrate 5

Dry Residue at 180c 453

I presume Waitrose is still the best bottled supermarket water available? I see Spence you moved on to making you own, and roastery water is the holy grail, but for us plebs who need to mix up our own this is all very useful.

@robashton have you seen this thread? I know you're all about the water just now.


----------



## funinacup

Took this pic at the Roman Baths yesterday. Got to taste the warm spring water at the end - nasty!


----------



## robashton

@risky aye, I've been here, still using ashbeck cos its next door, will re evaluate that once I'm back from Israel!


----------



## DoubleShot

Someone recently asked me why I don't use Buxton mineral water for coffee making, seen as it's much cheaper than Volvic? Can't say I've read or heard anyone say it's ideal or recommended. Have therefore never considered it.

Anyone tried it or care to explain why it is not suitable?


----------



## risky

DoubleShot said:


> Someone recently asked me why I don't use Buxton mineral water for coffee making, seen as it's much cheaper than Volvic? Can't say I've read or heard anyone say it's ideal or recommended. Have therefore never considered it.
> 
> Anyone tried it or care to explain why it is not suitable?


High everything judging by the data on the label. Bicarb in particular.


----------



## Step21

You don't need to stick with 100% of a particular bottled water. Try mixing them for better results. My current mix is Waitrose Essentials/Volvic/Highland Spring combo. I'm going on holiday next week to a non Waitrose part of the UK. So short of filling the car with WE (Brazen already booked in) i'll need to find something to mix with Ashbeck.


----------



## DoubleShot

Step21 said:


> My current mix is Waitrose Essentials/Volvic/Highland Spring combo.


What percentages of each are you mixing?

Thanks.


----------



## Step21

DoubleShot said:


> What percentages of each are you mixing?
> 
> Thanks.


I don't measure the split precisely but at the moment it is in the region of 75/80% Waitrose, equal split between the Volvic/Highland Spring. The HS adds a bit of TDS & calcium. Best just to experiment to see what you like.


----------



## forzajuve

I've been working on blending water out of the taps here in Manchester given that it is very soft and also that unlike bottled water, utilities provide regular weekly sampling and analysis of water delivery so it is much more reliable. I would be interested to see if I can plug that into the @Xpenno sheet and come up with a comparable recipe and taste output.

For info the latest report from UU (24/7/2015) for my supply is:

Ca: 9.26

Mg: 1.45

pH: 7.4

TDS: ~60ppm

Alkalinity: no info available from UU, anyone getting this info from their supplier?


----------



## risky

forzajuve said:


> I've been working on blending water out of the taps here in Manchester given that it is very soft and also that unlike bottled water, utilities provide regular weekly sampling and analysis of water delivery so it is much more reliable. I would be interested to see if I can plug that into the @Xpenno sheet and come up with a comparable recipe and taste output.
> 
> For info the latest report from UU (24/7/2015) for my supply is:
> 
> Ca: 9.26
> 
> Mg: 1.45
> 
> pH: 7.4
> 
> TDS: ~60ppm
> 
> Alkalinity: no info available from UU, anyone getting this info from their supplier?


What are you using to remove the chlorine and other things in the tap water?


----------



## forzajuve

risky said:


> What are you using to remove the chlorine and other things in the tap water?


I'm not removing anything, I'm interested to see if this is viable working from a very soft base tap water. Chlorine specifically is not such an issue given the low volatilisation point.


----------



## Xpenno

forzajuve said:


> I've been working on blending water out of the taps here in Manchester given that it is very soft and also that unlike bottled water, utilities provide regular weekly sampling and analysis of water delivery so it is much more reliable. I would be interested to see if I can plug that into the @Xpenno sheet and come up with a comparable recipe and taste output.
> 
> For info the latest report from UU (24/7/2015) for my supply is:
> 
> Ca: 9.26
> 
> Mg: 1.45
> 
> pH: 7.4
> 
> TDS: ~60ppm
> 
> Alkalinity: no info available from UU, anyone getting this info from their supplier?


What are you trying to calculate?


----------



## forzajuve

Xpenno said:


> What are you trying to calculate?


Trying to see where I am at out of the tap against some of the standards mentioned in this thread and see if adding minerals can achieve something in line with them. In the end I lodged an enquiry with UU who do some alkalinity testing but don't publish routinely. The average result was 16.4 with max 22.3 and min 13.6 so some variation there as you might expect.

So as I see it I am low on Mg to Ca and low on both to alkalinity?


----------



## Xpenno

forzajuve said:


> Trying to see where I am at out of the tap against some of the standards mentioned in this thread and see if adding minerals can achieve something in line with them. In the end I lodged an enquiry with UU who do some alkalinity testing but don't publish routinely. The average result was 16.4 with max 22.3 and min 13.6 so some variation there as you might expect.
> 
> So as I see it I am low on Mg to Ca and low on both to alkalinity?


So your hardness is about 28 mg/L

Did they tell you what units alkalinity was recorded in?

I wouldn't worry about Ca/Mg ratio until everything else is sorted.

Do you have problems making good coffee with your water? Although low it's still a reasonable make up but you might suffer from weak body and unpleasant/unbalanced acidity.

I found that adding minerals via my old technique showed very varied results so bare that in mind when experimenting.


----------



## risky

Came across a new one in Tesco today. Saka. 5L for £1.50

Calcium 29.5

Magnesium 3.9

Sodium 5.3

Potassium 0.2

Silicic Acid 15.6

Bicarbonate 110

Sulphate 8.5

Chloride 1.2

Nitrate 1.9

Evaporation residue @ 180C: 61mg/l

Total dissolved minerals: 176mg/l, pH 8.2

Bottled at Camlica, Sakarya

Any use at all? Is it worth mixing it with something like Waitrose?


----------



## garydyke1

risky said:


> Came across a new one in Tesco today. Saka. 5L for £1.50
> 
> Calcium 29.5
> 
> Magnesium 3.9
> 
> Sodium 5.3
> 
> Potassium 0.2
> 
> Silicic Acid 15.6
> 
> Bicarbonate 110
> 
> Sulphate 8.5
> 
> Chloride 1.2
> 
> Nitrate 1.9
> 
> Evaporation residue @ 180C: 61mg/l
> 
> Total dissolved minerals: 176mg/l, pH 8.2
> 
> Bottled at Camlica, Sakarya
> 
> Any use at all? Is it worth mixing it with something like Waitrose?


try it


----------



## Xpenno

risky said:


> Came across a new one in Tesco today. Saka. 5L for £1.50
> 
> Calcium 29.5
> 
> Magnesium 3.9
> 
> Sodium 5.3
> 
> Potassium 0.2
> 
> Silicic Acid 15.6
> 
> Bicarbonate 110
> 
> Sulphate 8.5
> 
> Chloride 1.2
> 
> Nitrate 1.9
> 
> Evaporation residue @ 180C: 61mg/l
> 
> Total dissolved minerals: 176mg/l, pH 8.2
> 
> Bottled at Camlica, Sakarya
> 
> Any use at all? Is it worth mixing it with something like Waitrose?


No good in theory but might be worth a shot.


----------



## hotmetal

How does evaporation residue relate to total dissolved minerals? I would have assumed that they should be equal if you assume that evaporation effectively is like distilling but where the pure water is lost and minerals remain. I'm puzzled as to why TDS is different from dry residue at 180°. What am I missing? (Also, if indeed there is a good reason why these figures don't align, which of them is the one we should be interested in as regards boiler scaling? )

Never thought I'd find water so interesting before!


----------



## Mike mc

I have been trying to source the clearview water from Tesco but none have stock near me.the manager said it has been discontinued now

What other water brands would people reccomend for use with brewed coffee in the brazen and is ashbeck still the best for espresso ?

Thanks guys


----------



## DoubleShot

I don't think many would say Ashbeck is the 'best' bottled water for espresso. Volvic seems to get more votes and what I've been using for the past six months or so. Have tried using it for brewed also in a Clever Coffee Dripper a few times and it seemed okay.


----------



## Xpenno

DoubleShot said:


> I don't think many would say Ashbeck is the 'best' bottled water for espresso. Volvic seems to get more votes and what I've been using for the past six months or so. Have tried using it for brewed also in a Clever Coffee Dripper a few times and it seemed okay.


I'm with doubleshot, volvic over ashbeck. Unfortunately neither are ideal but if I had to use bottled then it would be volvic.


----------



## Mike mc

Xpenno said:


> I'm with doubleshot, volvic over ashbeck. Unfortunately neither are ideal but if I had to use bottled then it would be volvic.


Cheers guys.when I bought my expobar ashbeck was what most seemed to use.bot been on the forum for a while so opinions seem to have shifted

Noticed Gary saying waitrose water is not bad for brewed so have just stocked up on that.

Are you's all using plumbed in filters now then?


----------



## DoubleShot

Some have plumbed in machines using inline filters, lots use Volvic and some mix their own water using two or more different bottled waters from what I've read.

Then there's posh folk like garydyke1 with access to roastery water!


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Mike mc said:


> I have been trying to source the clearview water from Tesco but none have stock near me.the manager said it has been discontinued now
> 
> What other water brands would people reccomend for use with brewed coffee in the brazen and is ashbeck still the best for espresso ?
> 
> Thanks guys


Have you got a Waitrose in your vicinity? Their Essential has a pretty good spec and costs £1.10 for 5ltrs.


----------



## Xpenno

Mike mc said:


> Cheers guys.when I bought my expobar ashbeck was what most seemed to use.bot been on the forum for a while so opinions seem to have shifted
> 
> Noticed Gary saying waitrose water is not bad for brewed so have just stocked up on that.
> 
> Are you's all using plumbed in filters now then?


Try a 50/50 waitrose/volvic mix, should be better than either on its own.


----------



## Mike mc

The Systemic Kid said:


> Have you got a Waitrose in your vicinity? Their Essential has a pretty good spec and costs £1.10 for 5ltrs.


Closest one is altrincham.went earlier and stocked up with a trolley full.thanks


----------



## Mike mc

Xpenno said:


> Try a 50/50 waitrose/volvic mix, should be better than either on its own.


Thanks I will give that a try.would the 50/50 mix also work well with espresso ?


----------



## Xpenno

Mike mc said:


> Thanks I will give that a try.would the 50/50 mix also work well with espresso ?


Yes, should be better than either one on its own.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Xpenno said:


> Try a 50/50 waitrose/volvic mix, should be better than either on its own.


Thanks, Spence, will give that a go.


----------



## DoubleShot

The Systemic Kid said:


> Thanks, Spence, will give that a go.


Me too!


----------



## Xpenno

The Systemic Kid said:


> Thanks, Spence, will give that a go.


No worries, they both have a very similar hardness so that doesn't change when you mix them. Waitrose has a lower than "ideal" alkalinity and Volvic higher. Mixing them helps balance this out. If you wanted to experiment then you could also try 2/3 Waitrose to 1/3 Volvic which would give you a nice balance that should work better for brewed but would also work from spro.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Tried 50/50 Volvic and Waitrose this morning with HasBean's Finca La Ilusion through Chemex. Really enjoyed the result - obviously very subjective on one brew but the thing that struck me was the quality of the body seemed different - smoother without loosing the flavour notes. Going to do some tests today using different brew ratios and see what the outcome is.


----------



## Xpenno

The Systemic Kid said:


> Tried 50/50 Volvic and Waitrose this morning with HasBean's Finca La Ilusion through Chemex. Really enjoyed the result - obviously very subjective on one brew but the thing that struck me was the quality of the body seemed different - smoother without loosing the flavour notes. Going to do some tests today using different brew ratios and see what the outcome is.


Good news, hopefully not a one off









Alkalinity kind of works against the hardness during a brew and partially neutralises its effect. It stops the pH lowering too far. Some alkalinity is required to stabilise the brew water but too much will result in a dullish brew. Mixing the 2 waters lowers the alkalinity whilst maintaining the same hardness. Win/Win.


----------



## robashton

Evian has competition - mmm tasty!

View attachment 15999


----------



## urbanbumpkin

I'm looking at alternatives to Ashbeck for Espresso.

Is 50/50 Waitrose Essentials / Volvic mix still a good contender or are there any other recommendations?


----------



## garydyke1

urbanbumpkin said:


> I'm looking at alternatives to Ashbeck for Espresso.
> 
> Is 50/50 Waitrose Essentials / Volvic mix still a good contender or are there any other recommendations?


Spences' special magic water . Nothing else will do


----------



## urbanbumpkin

garydyke1 said:


> Spences' special magic water . Nothing else will do


Cheers Gary, I will have to give it a go, but I don't want to be making a nuisance of myself turning up there every couple of weeks. His neighbours will start talking. Aside from a Selly Oak to Kings Heath pipe line is there anything else that's worth trying?

Special water!!!


----------



## garydyke1

League of Gentlemen was the best.


----------



## robashton

garydyke1 said:


> Spences' special magic water . Nothing else will do


You could try and give a useful answer once in a while instead of constantly going on about water that nobody else has..


----------



## garydyke1

robashton said:


> You could try and give a useful answer once in a while instead of constantly going on about water that nobody else has..


Yes I could..... but given that Clive only lives pretty much around the corner from Spence and I he's welcome to come and get some roastery/magic water anytime


----------



## robashton

The rest of us however would like to know...

Although Dear Green seem to be moving into BWT filter territory and acting as re-sellers, will I get a good experience with magnesium or will I spent my life wishing for calcium? (Or stick to the volvic/waitrose blend)


----------



## Xpenno

robashton said:


> The rest of us however would like to know...
> 
> Although Dear Green seem to be moving into BWT filter territory and acting as re-sellers, will I get a good experience with magnesium or will I spent my life wishing for calcium? (Or stick to the volvic/waitrose blend)


There are no new answers to the water question, its been discussed a bunch of times on here already.

If you have decent source water then filtration is an option but the solution will be unique to your local supply so there is no generic answer.


----------



## robashton

Xpenno said:


> There are no new answers to the water question, its been discussed a bunch of times on here already.
> 
> If you have decent source water then filtration is an option but the solution will be unique to your local supply so there is no generic answer.


Yup, they'll take a sample and do that shizzle - but basically its glasgow water and it has nothing in it - they'll add mg, but not ca.

thinking it's better than nothing though, and potentially better than the current plastic excess from bottle buying.


----------



## jlarkin

Xpenno said:


> There are no new answers to the water question, its been discussed a bunch of times on here already.
> 
> If you have decent source water then filtration is an option but the solution will be unique to your local supply so there is no generic answer.


Did I see a post a few weeks back that said you are writing another article or did I imagine it? Just to check if I'm holding out for an article that isn't coming . Thanks for all your investigations and info on water so far, it's very interesting and helpful.

I don't know if it's my imagination but I think Waitrose Essential and Volvic mix has been giving me the best results thus far (I change coffees, techniques and the whole shebang at the moment, so it's hard to know though )


----------



## Xpenno

robashton said:


> Yup, they'll take a sample and do that shizzle - but basically its glasgow water and it has nothing in it - they'll add mg, but not ca.
> 
> thinking it's better than nothing though, and potentially better than the current plastic excess from bottle buying.


Thing is I don't think that the bwt stuff doesn't add magnesium, it effectively swaps calcium ions for magnesium ones using an exchange resin. If there is no calcium in the first place then there will be no magnesium after you filter it. I've owned a couple of their filters and have very soft water (40ppm).


----------



## robashton

Thats what I thought, but dear green seemed to think differently! They're looking at rolling these out to their more quality focused customers. Shame to think that it'd be a pointless exercise!

stick to the volvic/waitrose for now then, it's better than nothing!


----------



## Xpenno

urbanbumpkin said:


> I'm looking at alternatives to Ashbeck for Espresso.
> 
> Is 50/50 Waitrose Essentials / Volvic mix still a good contender or are there any other recommendations?


If you want to try some water then I'll make you up 5L over the weekend. I'll be making mine up and probably some for Gary so its no big deal just let me know?


----------



## Phil104

Couple of things: are you still using the 50/50 mix @The Systemic Kid?

Presumably the Maxwell & Chris Hendon book isn't quite out yet so it's not possible to say if it's going to make a difference in terms of informing this thread - or is it likely to?


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Yes I am, Phil. 50% Volvic and 50% Waitrose Essential. Pleased with the results for all brew methods.


----------



## coffeechap

Xpenno said:


> If you want to try some water then I'll make you up 5L over the weekend. I'll be making mine up and probably some for Gary so its no big deal just let me know?


Don't forget me


----------



## Xpenno

urbanbumpkin said:


> I'm looking at alternatives to Ashbeck for Espresso.
> 
> Is 50/50 Waitrose Essentials / Volvic mix still a good contender or are there any other recommendations?


If you want to try some water then I'll make you up 5L over the weekend. I'll be making mine up and probably some for Gary so its no big deal just let me know?


----------



## Mrboots2u

Xpenno said:


> If you want to try some water then I'll make you up 5L over the weekend. I'll be making mine up and probably some for Gary so its no big deal just let me know?


I need to get a soda stream ...


----------



## Xpenno

Mrboots2u said:


> I need to get a soda stream ...


You do!


----------



## Mrboots2u

Xpenno said:


> You do!


Rohan really likes pop ...


----------



## Xpenno

Phil104 said:


> Couple of things: are you still using the 50/50 mix @The Systemic Kid?
> 
> Presumably the Maxwell & Chris Hendon book isn't quite out yet so it's not possible to say if it's going to make a difference in terms of informing this thread - or is it likely to?


It's unlikely to add loads more detail but who knows







I've spoken to Maxwell quite a bit but I don't know the full scope of what the book covers off. Looking forward to getting hold of it.


----------



## Xpenno

jlarkin said:


> Did I see a post a few weeks back that said you are writing another article or did I imagine it? Just to check if I'm holding out for an article that isn't coming . Thanks for all your investigations and info on water so far, it's very interesting and helpful.
> 
> I don't know if it's my imagination but I think Waitrose Essential and Volvic mix has been giving me the best results thus far (I change coffees, techniques and the whole shebang at the moment, so it's hard to know though )


Yup, sorry life got in the way, holidays and funerals take precedence over coffee water blogs I'm afraid. I'll try and get it done over the bank hols.


----------



## jlarkin

Xpenno said:


> Yup, sorry life got in the way, holidays and funerals take precedence over coffee water blogs I'm afraid. I'll try and get it done over the bank hols.


No need to apologise - I just couldn't see the mention of it now so wanted to double check. Thanks for confirming


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Xpenno said:


> If you want to try some water then I'll make you up 5L over the weekend. I'll be making mine up and probably some for Gary so its no big deal just let me know?


Cheers Spence, I'm actually away this weekend but would be grateful if I could pick up some next week.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

I'm still convinced Gary and Spence are going to get me addicted to the Special water then cut my supply of it.


----------



## Xpenno

So here's the post, yes I'm probably not normal, is it normal to do this sort of stuff? I don't know....

http://grindscience.com/2015/08/making-water-for-coffee-sodastream-method-best-recipe-so-far/

I will upload the spreadsheet to google when I get a second but I need to simplify it first as it's a bloody mess at the moment!

Any Q's then drop me a line, hopefully someone is as crazy as me and will give it a go


----------



## Xpenno

P.s. it's almost certainly full of typos and crap so I'll apologies in advance...


----------



## Phil104

Brilliant, thanks Spence - it's another reason to give up the day job - so I can work on this water recipe. I might have missed it but how long could you keep a batch for?


----------



## Xpenno

Phil104 said:


> Brilliant, thanks Spence - it's another reason to give up the day job - so I can work on this water recipe. I might have missed it but how long could you keep a batch for?


The fizzy stuff or the final water?


----------



## Phil104

Xpenno said:


> The fizzy stuff or the final water?


Sorry, I was thinking of the final water.


----------



## Xpenno

Phil104 said:


> Sorry, I was thinking of the final water.


It seems to keep pretty well. I starts off with a low pH which I prefer for filter brewing but as you expose it to air the carbonate system starts moving towards it natural pH of around 8. It's worth saying that it has no chlorine etc.. in there so there is nothing to kill off nasties (although they should have been removed during RO). I've not had any issues but I wouldn't want it sat around for months on end. In espresso machines you are boiling so that's not a problem and for filter you're not going to be far off boiling so it really is down to personal preference.


----------



## Phil104

Xpenno said:


> It seems to keep pretty well. I starts off with a low pH which I prefer for filter brewing but as you expose it to air the carbonate system starts moving towards it natural pH of around 8. It's worth saying that it has no chlorine etc.. in there so there is nothing to kill off nasties (although they should have been removed during RO). I've not had any issues but I wouldn't want it sat around for months on end. In espresso machines you are boiling so that's not a problem and for filter you're not going to be far off boiling so it really is down to personal preference.


Thanks again - as you've probably guessed, it's working out the time investment to make a batch set against mixing Volvic and Waitrose Essential. It sounds like you are generally producing a 5l batch, which would last me maybe a couple of weeks depending upon whether or not I'm working at home and around at weekends.


----------



## garydyke1

To sanitise water you need to have a rolling boil for 15 mins. Probably best to starsan empty bottles prior to refilling


----------



## robashton

This looks pretty easy to accomplish.

Now for those of us without RO systems set up but with pretty much nothing in our water already (seriously bugger all diddly squat), I imagine that so long as I filtered using a charcoal filter beforehand I'd be "close enough" given the abuse you then subject the water to.. (Yeah I guess I could find an aquatics centre but I don't have a car so the idea of lugging 10kg of water around in a backpack isn't that appealing)

[edit]

I go through about 10L of water a week for coffee so that's where that number comes from!


----------



## urbanbumpkin

robashton said:


> This looks pretty easy to accomplish.
> 
> Now for those of us without RO systems set up but with pretty much nothing in our water already (seriously bugger all diddly squat), I imagine that so long as I filtered using a charcoal filter beforehand I'd be "close enough" given the abuse you then subject the water to.. (Yeah I guess I could find an aquatics centre but I don't have a car so the idea of lugging 10kg of water around in a backpack isn't that appealing)
> 
> [edit]
> 
> I go through about 10L of water a week for coffee so that's where that number comes from!


Wow 10 litres is quite a lot. How many cups of coffee do you drink a day?


----------



## robashton

I usually drink 4-5 spros and a couple of filters (often brewed 500ml at a time).

That's before I do what I often do and try out recipes/tasting/measuring for an hour or so here or there


----------



## urbanbumpkin

robashton said:


> I usually drink 4-5 spros and a couple of filters (often brewed 500ml at a time).
> 
> That's before I do what I often do and try out recipes/tasting/measuring for an hour or so here or there


I suppose that would definitely do 10 litres.


----------



## risky

Phil104 said:


> Thanks again - as you've probably guessed, it's working out the time investment to make a batch set against mixing Volvic and Waitrose Essential.


This is the crux of it. Are we talking night and day taste difference here Spence? I was discussing this with @robashton on twitter.

As with everything it always boils down to 'how much better does it taste in the cup'. What I suppose I'm getting at is, does this water offer a bigger improvement in the cup than spending x amount on a better piece of gear (machine or grinder). Or is this taste improvement only noticeable for someone running on high end equipment anyway? On entry level gear would it be worth doing, or is it better to stick to mixing bottled?


----------



## YerbaMate170

Is there anything particular to look out for in water (completely new to this area) - e.g. how's this? (EDIT: that's mg per litre)


----------



## Xpenno

robashton said:


> This looks pretty easy to accomplish.
> 
> Now for those of us without RO systems set up but with pretty much nothing in our water already (seriously bugger all diddly squat), I imagine that so long as I filtered using a charcoal filter beforehand I'd be "close enough" given the abuse you then subject the water to.. (Yeah I guess I could find an aquatics centre but I don't have a car so the idea of lugging 10kg of water around in a backpack isn't that appealing)
> 
> [edit]
> 
> I go through about 10L of water a week for coffee so that's where that number comes from!


Not sure, all depends on your source water, no harm in trying. I use RO as it's a known entity. Tap water will and can change drastically depending on levels of rainfall etc...


----------



## Xpenno

Phil104 said:


> Thanks again - as you've probably guessed, it's working out the time investment to make a batch set against mixing Volvic and Waitrose Essential. It sounds like you are generally producing a 5l batch, which would last me maybe a couple of weeks depending upon whether or not I'm working at home and around at weekends.


If you take the filtration step out of the equation then I can make 20L in pretty much the same time as it takes to make 1L. The filtration takes time but you don't have to sit there at watch it you just top it up and fill bottles as and when you walk past it.

There is a time investment of course and it's all down to the individual as to whether or not it's worth it. You can't simply compare it to mixing waitrose/volvic as this water is much better, it's more like

better tasting coffee - time - cost of setup VS can I be arsed - cost of mineral water


----------



## Xpenno

risky said:


> This is the crux of it. Are we talking night and day taste difference here Spence? I was discussing this with @robashton on twitter.
> 
> As with everything it always boils down to 'how much better does it taste in the cup'. What I suppose I'm getting at is, does this water offer a bigger improvement in the cup than spending x amount on a better piece of gear (machine or grinder). Or is this taste improvement only noticeable for someone running on high end equipment anyway? On entry level gear would it be worth doing, or is it better to stick to mixing bottled?


As with expensive machines etc it's all down to the person as to whether they believe that it's worth or not. I can't say whether it's worth it for you. I've invested a fair bit of time and some money into it, I've taken the time write a post about and shared it here so I'm guessing you can work out where I stand









I have always stated that you can make great coffee with any reasonable spec water, recipes are different and end result is different but great coffee is great coffee. It's also worth pointing out that this won't fix poor preparation or make up for equipment that's not up to spec, it's not a magic bullet.

I guess I'm at the upper end of the gear scale, I buy decent coffee and have always strived to make my prep as consistent as possible. My coffee was good (as far as I am concerned) before I started with water so this has been (hopefully) the last piece of my coffee puzzle.


----------



## garydyke1

risky said:


> This is the crux of it. Are we talking night and day taste difference here Spence?


My heart sinks if Ive run out of this magic water or roastery/waitrose 50/50. Often I wont bother to drink coffee


----------



## Xpenno

YerbaMate170 said:


> Is there anything particular to look out for in water (completely new to this area) - e.g. how's this? (EDIT: that's mg per litre)
> 
> View attachment 16364


Don't know if this helps?

http://grindscience.com/2015/02/interpreting-water-bottle-labels/


----------



## Xpenno

garydyke1 said:


> My heart sinks if Ive run out of this magic water or roastery/waitrose 50/50. Often I wont bother to drink coffee


And to think, we may never have got here if we had never discovered Has Bean water


----------



## garydyke1

I knew better water existed. Vodafone Newbury HQ, made better aeropresses with a porlex than with a baratza at home with Ashbeck


----------



## robashton

Xpenno said:


> Not sure, all depends on your source water, no harm in trying. I use RO as it's a known entity. Tap water will and can change drastically depending on levels of rainfall etc...


Truth.

I suspect it'll be close enough, relative to the other options of either using just tap water (ahh no) or any of the bottled waters I have previously stocked. Perhaps not as consistent as a known base but certainly convenient enough that I'd actually do it (I'll order the stuff later today and report back).

i definitely agree that you can make reasonable coffee with any reasonable water - I was helping a coffee popup this weekend on glasgow tap water and it took some recipe fiddling but we got enough out of the beans thst stuff tasted great. Good ingredients mean good coffee, water is just another ingredient.

Sorta like cooking really.


----------



## DoubleShot

robashton said:


> Good ingredients mean good coffee, water is just another ingredient.
> 
> Sorta like cooking really.


One big difference though is that espresso is 95% water, no?


----------



## robashton

DoubleShot said:


> One big difference though is that espresso is 95% water, no?


91%, I'm not *that* far down the EK owners path yet.

But yes, sorta important as an ingredient.


----------



## SZA

robashton said:


> Truth.
> 
> I suspect it'll be close enough, relative to the other options of either using just tap water (ahh no) or any of the bottled waters I have previously stocked. Perhaps not as consistent as a known base but certainly convenient enough that I'd actually do it (I'll order the stuff later today and report back).
> 
> i definitely agree that you can make reasonable coffee with any reasonable water - I was helping a coffee popup this weekend on glasgow tap water and it took some recipe fiddling but we got enough out of the beans thst stuff tasted great. Good ingredients mean good coffee, water is just another ingredient.
> 
> Sorta like cooking really.


Actually, Maxwell's main point when talking about water is exactly that it is NOT just another ingredient, and that "good coffee + good water = nice coffee" just isn't the right way to look at it. For instance, the tap water here in Copenhagen is absolutely odour free, and has a nice and smooth taste. But the very high bicarbonate level is just killing all aromatics, resulting in all coffees tasting extremely dull, even though the water in itself is a "good ingredient".

Instead it is more helpful to think of water as a solvent, where the chemical properties, in terms of high much is extracted, and how that affects the pH of the beverage, can be highly customised by "simply" changing the ion content. In principle the best water for coffee extraction could taste horrible when consumed on its own! Or even be dangerous for human consumption, like the high pH experiments Maxwell and co was doing during research.

I don't think that is the case, though. Just to be clear..


----------



## craig01nire

Anyone from Northern Ireland have any experience using bottled water we can get here such as river rock or ballygowan?


----------



## Russ

I haven't got access to RO water and wouldn't want to buy it from the aquarium shop as I fear it's not stored in accordance to food standards. Would the spreadsheet (btw where is it please?) help me work out what to add to Ashbeck (that's easy to source and low in pretty much everything - right?) to improve it. I have got a soda stream so could easily make the carbonic acid if required.

Cheers

Russ


----------



## Step21

craig01nire said:


> Anyone from Northern Ireland have any experience using bottled water we can get here such as river rock or ballygowan?


Not from NI but Ballygowan is quite widely available over here.

If you read Xpenno's blog there is a section on "interpreting water bottle labels". Using this info you can clearly see that Ballygowan would not be a good choice. Almost a 1:1 hardness/alkalinity ratio and way too high in terms of both.

I can't find any info about river rock composition (presume you mean Deep RiverRock?) - but if you have a bottle the info you need should be on the label.


----------



## Xpenno

Russ said:


> I haven't got access to RO water and wouldn't want to buy it from the aquarium shop as I fear it's not stored in accordance to food standards. Would the spreadsheet (btw where is it please?) help me work out what to add to Ashbeck (that's easy to source and low in pretty much everything - right?) to improve it. I have got a soda stream so could easily make the carbonic acid if required.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Russ


You could potentially improve Ashbeck but you are starting with an unknown entity, why not just use Volvic. Ashbeck isn't good for coffee brewing.


----------



## Step21

Would de-ionised water work? Asda sell 2.5litre bottles of it (in the car section) for around £1.25. Cheaper than Volvic.


----------



## Xpenno

Step21 said:


> Would de-ionised water work? Asda sell 2.5litre bottles of it (in the car section) for around £1.25. Cheaper than Volvic.


I would be similar, i.e. low TDS but I could not comment on whether it's suitable for drinking or not :S


----------



## Russ

Xpenno said:


> You could potentially improve Ashbeck but you are starting with an unknown entity, why not just use Volvic. Ashbeck isn't good for coffee brewing.


 @Xpenno

I find Volvic difficult to get hold of (always out of stock when I go to get it) and is pretty expensive unless you are lucky to live near a supermarket that has it on offer (I'm not!) There's a Tesco express on my way home and they nearly always have Ashbeck which from the analysis on the label has pretty low everything in it. Are you suggesting by saying its an unknown entity that the label analysis is likley to be incorrect or its likley to varie in quality? If the former I could get it tested independently (full analysis if required) but could easily check TDS, pH and Bicarbonate myself as I have the test equipment for that to hand daily.

Thanks

Russ


----------



## Xpenno

Russ said:


> @Xpenno
> 
> I find Volvic difficult to get hold of (always out of stock when I go to get it) and is pretty expensive unless you are lucky to live near a supermarket that has it on offer (I'm not!) There's a Tesco express on my way home and they nearly always have Ashbeck which from the analysis on the label has pretty low everything in it. Are you suggesting by saying its an unknown entity that the label analysis is likley to be incorrect or its likley to varie in quality? If the former I could get it tested independently (full analysis if required) but could easily check TDS, pH and Bicarbonate myself as I have the test equipment for that to hand daily.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Russ


Have a crack @Russ, interested to see how it goes


----------



## Step21

Xpenno said:


> I would be similar, i.e. low TDS but I could not comment on whether it's suitable for drinking or not :S


Spence, as i understand your ingenious method, the base water (RO) is re-mineralised with calcium and trace minerals from the sea salt addition. So the brew water is effectively mineral water and not DI or RO.

There seems to be a debate about whether drinking straight DI water is good/bad for you due to its purity and solvent properties. But this would be remineralised DI water, so it's difficult to see what issues there could be with drinking it?

One thing i'm not clear on is where the Mg is coming from. You mention that the filter exchanges some Ca for Mg. Is there some Mg in the sea salt?


----------



## robashton

I've ordered everything required for the @Xpenno magic water experience and will do the first batch with Glasgow tap water to see what happens (I'll do a side by side with RO water when I've got a friend around who can give me a lift!).

pssst: Could I has a spreadsheet in the next few days pls?


----------



## robashton

Step21 said:


> You mention that the filter exchanges some Ca for Mg. Is there some Mg in the sea salt?


The Mg comes from the filter - the BWT stuff re-mineralises and is supposed to swap Ca for Mg - see also: http://www.amazon.co.uk/BWT-Litre-Longlife-Cartridge-Pack/dp/B00CD229Q6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441317269&sr=8-1&keywords=bwt


----------



## Xpenno

Step21 said:


> Spence, as i understand your ingenious method, the base water (RO) is re-mineralised with calcium and trace minerals from the sea salt addition. So the brew water is effectively mineral water and not DI or RO.
> 
> There seems to be a debate about whether drinking straight DI water is good/bad for you due to its purity and solvent properties. But this would be remineralised DI water, so it's difficult to see what issues there could be with drinking it?
> 
> One thing i'm not clear on is where the Mg is coming from. You mention that the filter exchanges some Ca for Mg. Is there some Mg in the sea salt?


I don't drink pure ro water, that said I've not seen any actual proof either way with regards its effects on the body. Most of the mubojumbo on the net about ro refers to it being a solvent or pure as you say, either way the water I make has a higher mineral content than ashbeck and volvic so make of that what you will.

In my solution there will be a small amount of mg from the sea salt but the rest comes from the BWT filter cartridge. That cartridge uses a resin media to trap Ca and replace it with Mg ions.


----------



## Xpenno

robashton said:


> I've ordered everything required for the @Xpenno magic water experience and will do the first batch with Glasgow tap water to see what happens (I'll do a side by side with RO water when I've got a friend around who can give me a lift!).
> 
> pssst: Could I has a spreadsheet in the next few days pls?


Yeah, should be really simple. Just need to clean it up. Will sort over the weekend.


----------



## Russ

Spreadsheet will be very useful, thanks

I'm planning something similar to robaston but using Ashbeck as the base.

Cheers

Russ


----------



## risky

Just a couple of things for @robashton and anyone else going to buy RO from a fish shop etc. rather than making it themselves. I would strongly suggest taking a TDS pen or similar (£5,ebay) and checking the TDS of the RO water you are buying. These places are notorious for being lax in their filter / resin changing. And quite often their RO water will not be well filtered. I've bought RO water in the past with a higher TDS than my tap water.


----------



## robashton

I've got a TDS pen arriving so I'll bear that in mind ta.

I assume you'll be up for coming around and giving the results a go @risky - @jeebsy ?


----------



## risky

robashton said:


> I've got a TDS pen arriving so I'll bear that in mind ta.
> 
> I assume you'll be up for coming around and giving the results a go @risky - @jeebsy ?


Absolutely. I'm interested to see the difference between the water made from RO against the water made from the tap.


----------



## Xpenno

risky said:


> Just a couple of things for @robashton and anyone else going to buy RO from a fish shop etc. rather than making it themselves. I would strongly suggest taking a TDS pen or similar (£5,ebay) and checking the TDS of the RO water you are buying. These places are notorious for being lax in their filter / resin changing. And quite often their RO water will not be well filtered. I've bought RO water in the past with a higher TDS than my tap water.


One other option is to buy distilled water from Amazon if you just want to test the difference between tap and pure water as the base. I purchased a 20L container of distilled water and it was literally 0 TDS. It would cost a little more but if you're just testing then it could work for you.


----------



## Xpenno

Russ said:


> Spreadsheet will be very useful, thanks
> 
> I'm planning something similar to robaston but using Ashbeck as the base.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Russ


You will be able to access the sheet from my blog when I upload it. It will not take into account using any other water aside from RO/distilled but I'm sure you can still use it to help achieve what you are trying to do.


----------



## Step21

Xpenno said:


> I don't drink pure ro water, that said I've not seen any actual proof either way with regards its effects on the body. Most of the mubojumbo on the net about ro refers to it being a solvent or pure as you say, either way the water I make has a higher mineral content than ashbeck and volvic so make of that what you will.
> 
> In my solution there will be a small amount of mg from the sea salt but the rest comes from the BWT filter cartridge. That cartridge uses a resin media to trap Ca and replace it with Mg ions.


There certainly are some strange opinions about drinking pure water do to it being a solvent. Bet these same people drink alcohol and don't regard it as a solvent!

Coming back to the Ca/Mg - i thought that the ideal ratio for coffee was 4 parts Ca to 1 Mg. Is that roughly what you are ending up with?


----------



## garydyke1

robashton said:


> I've got a TDS pen arriving so I'll bear that in mind ta.
> 
> I assume you'll be up for coming around and giving the results a go @risky - @jeebsy ?


Stick on the refactometer, see if its 0.00%


----------



## robashton

Nah, it's all about workflow (and not carrying an expensive refractometer around!)

My tap water shows 0.00 and I calibrate with distilled.


----------



## garydyke1

robashton said:


> Nah, it's all about workflow (and not carrying an expensive refractometer around!)
> 
> My tap water shows 0.00 and I calibrate with distilled.


Christ .

Our roastery water reads 0.03%. Volvic 0.01%


----------



## robashton

Yup! May as well try to extract coffee by blowing on it


----------



## risky

Interesting, so does the expensive refractometer have less 'resolution' (is this the right word? It appears to round the results?) than the cheapo pen when it comes to measuring TDS? For example by the looks of it, anything under 50ppm will read as 0.00% on the refrac?

Tap Water: 49ppm / 0.0049%

Volvic: 99ppm / 0.0099%

Waitrose: 94ppm / 0.0094%

I believe this was one of the first things mentioned in the Maxwell video, about how useless TDS is as a measurement of water, but hey.


----------



## MWJB

risky said:


> Interesting, so does the expensive refractometer have less 'resolution' (is this the right word? It appears to round the results?) than the cheapo pen when it comes to measuring TDS? For example by the looks of it, anything under 50ppm will read as 0.00% on the refrac?
> 
> Tap Water: 49ppm / 0.0049%
> 
> Volvic: 99ppm / 0.0099%
> 
> Waitrose: 94ppm / 0.0094%
> 
> I believe this was one of the first things mentioned in the Maxwell video, about how useless TDS is as a measurement of water, but hey.


The refractometer is measuring coffee, usually 11500ppm upwards, a TDS meter can't really do this to a meaningfully accurate degree. 49ppm/0.0049%TDS is less than the rated precision of a hand held refractometer & much less than accuracy tolerance. Nobody is drinking 'coffee' this weak. Coffee refractometers & conductive TDS meters are different tools for different jobs.

Maxwell said that TDS alone wasn't perhaps the most important point of focus, compared to temporary & general hardness, calcium & magnesium content IIRC. Previously a lot of folk only talked TDS of brew water, but the importance of bicarbonate content, for example, has been known for decades.


----------



## Xpenno

Step21 said:


> There certainly are some strange opinions about drinking pure water do to it being a solvent. Bet these same people drink alcohol and don't regard it as a solvent!
> 
> Coming back to the Ca/Mg - i thought that the ideal ratio for coffee was 4 parts Ca to 1 Mg. Is that roughly what you are ending up with?


Dunno what the ca/mg ratio is. That requires serious kit to measure that. At the end of the day it tastes good and I don't really care.


----------



## mrsimba

Popped into UnderPressureEspresso this afternoon and Matt who always has a great selection of coffee books had this in!










A fantastic book so much so I ordered a copy whilst I was reading Matts! it is certainly the definitive book on the subject & surprisingly easy to read, digest & understand!









The book can be ordered here -

http://waterforcoffeebook.com/products/water-for-coffee


----------



## DoubleShot

@mrsimba

@Obsy also has a copy.

Be interested in both of your thoughts once you've had a chance to read it?


----------



## urbanbumpkin

garydyke1 said:


> Spences' special magic water . Nothing else will do


It's early days and I've only tried "Special Water" with 1 espresso. It could be a fluke but it tasted like the coffee equivalent of 1080.

I think Spence has put crystal meth in it


----------



## DoubleShot

urbanbumpkin said:


> I think Spence has put crystal meth in it


Cue...mass addiction, lol!


----------



## urbanbumpkin

DoubleShot said:


> Cue...mass addiction, lol!


Told you all


----------



## Xpenno

urbanbumpkin said:


> It's early days and I've only tried "Special Water" with 1 espresso. It could be a fluke but it tasted like the coffee equivalent of 1080.
> 
> I think Spence has put crystal meth in it


Did you not read the small print?


----------



## DoubleShot

Xpenno said:


> Did you not read the small print?


Now you tell us, ha ha!


----------



## Xpenno

DoubleShot said:


> Now you tell us, ha ha!


A man's got to make a living...


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Xpenno said:


> A man's got to make a living...


Walter White of the West Midlands.

Breaking Brewed


----------



## garydyke1

Each bottle has a slightly lower TDS until youre all paying Spence £100 for 5 litres of RO


----------



## urbanbumpkin

garydyke1 said:


> Each bottle has a slightly lower TDS until youre all paying Spence £100 for 5 litres of RO


LOL the street markets are cutting it with Volvic.


----------



## robashton

All my stuff has arrived, so I guess tonight I'm making some carbonated calcium water..

@Xpenno not to rush you but any joy with that spreadsheet? ( If it's a mess but usable please feel free to send it through other means!)


----------



## robashton

FYI - my tap water is at 30ppm so ...


----------



## Xpenno

robashton said:


> All my stuff has arrived, so I guess tonight I'm making some carbonated calcium water..
> 
> @Xpenno not to rush you but any joy with that spreadsheet? ( If it's a mess but usable please feel free to send it through other means!)


Link added to blog post so you can download it there. I've removed everything that is not required.


----------



## robashton

Genius.

Thank you so much for putting in the time not only just for yourself but also for then sharing it - I'll probably make a couple of adjustments to deal with my slightly impure water but I bet anything is going to be miles better than what I've used so far (basic premise of add a pile of Ca, dilute to a reasonable TDS and exchange some for Mg) = legit!


----------



## Xpenno

robashton said:


> FYI - my tap water is at 30ppm so ...


You need to be careful, I use the RO water so I know exactly (well near enough) what my water profile is. My tap water is 40ppm but already had a Carbonate Hardness of over 40ppm. If you then made my water using my target hardness of 120ppm you could end up with a total alkalinity of 100ppm which is scale city at that level of Calcium. Just a gentle warning.


----------



## robashton

Interesting!

According to the breakdown on the Scottish Water Thing, this is what the typical tap water looks like in my area

Milngavie C3

Calcium mgCa/l 5.78

Magnesium mgMg/l 0.69

Hardness as mg/l CaCo3 17.24

Obviously this will vary on rainfall but I can probably adjust slightly to bear this in mind and get tolerable (and relatively safe) results. (I can also play around on taste too I guess)

---

Will look for a local supply of RO water - I'll be signing up for City Car Club soon and I'll be able to drive to fetch it.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

I have to say a mega thanks to Spence for the work he's put into this. From being a bit of a skeptic. I think I'm a bit of a convert to this water malarkey.

If all of the other coffee's I have with this water is this good then I'd compare it to jumping from a Mignon to an SJ in cup quality.


----------



## Dallah

Ok I got lost. Can I ask for a simple answer as to what are the best commonly available water for espresso? If different, which is the bottled water for brewed? I have no plans to put filtration on home water as other than chlorine, Manchester water is pretty top notch for drink and cooking.

Water for espresso - ?

Water for brewed - ?

Thanks


----------



## DoubleShot

Can one find out the breakdown of their tap water via the web or do you need to contact your water supplier by phone/email?


----------



## Xpenno

ridland said:


> Ok I got lost. Can I ask for a simple answer as to what are the best commonly available water for espresso? If different, which is the bottled water for brewed? I have no plans to put filtration on home water as other than chlorine, Manchester water is pretty top notch for drink and cooking.
> 
> Water for espresso - ?
> 
> Water for brewed - ?
> 
> Thanks


Volvic


----------



## Xpenno

DoubleShot said:


> Can one find out the breakdown of their tap water via the web or do you need to contact your water supplier by phone/email?


Most water suppliers have the info online.


----------



## Xpenno

robashton said:


> Interesting!
> 
> According to the breakdown on the Scottish Water Thing, this is what the typical tap water looks like in my area
> 
> Milngavie C3
> 
> Calcium mgCa/l 5.78
> 
> Magnesium mgMg/l 0.69
> 
> Hardness as mg/l CaCo3 17.24
> 
> Obviously this will vary on rainfall but I can probably adjust slightly to bear this in mind and get tolerable (and relatively safe) results. (I can also play around on taste too I guess)
> 
> ---
> 
> Will look for a local supply of RO water - I'll be signing up for City Car Club soon and I'll be able to drive to fetch it.


Hardness is fine you can work with that. Alkalinity is what will result in scale. Most companies don't publish bicarb or alkalinity figures.


----------



## Dallah

Xpenno said:


> Volvic


Spence, thanks for the simple and straight to the point answer. In the first page of this thread @garydyke1 says that Volvic water makes brewed undrinkable. Apart from the magical Hasbean water; what you you recommend for brewed Gary?


----------



## garydyke1

I've not had a great filter coffee from 100% volvic (yet) I found acidity to be jarring .

I'd go 50/50 waitrose / volvic but it's been a long while since I've brewed without roastery water mixed in somewhere


----------



## Xpenno

ridland said:


> Spence, thanks for the simple and straight to the point answer. In the first page of this thread @garydyke1 says that Volvic water makes brewed undrinkable. Apart from the magical Hasbean water; what you you recommend for brewed Gary?


As Gary said 50/50 waitrose/volvic is probably the best you'll do from bottles, it was recommended a while back and a few people have come back ans said it's a good improvement and it should work for espresso and brewed. If I wanted an easy off the shelf solution then it would be volvic.


----------



## DoubleShot

Glenn said:


> I have used Tesco Ashbeck as well. It is better for brewed than Volvic I find.


Clearview might also be worth a try from some of the comments I've read by members who have tried it.

Personally I've been using Volvic for brewed. That's about to change tomorrow when I crack open the 'Breaking Brewed' stash that @Xpenno made with his own fair hands.

Cheers bud! ?


----------



## Xpenno

DoubleShot said:



> Clearview might also be worth a try from some of the comments I've read by members who have tried it.
> 
> Personally I've been using Volvic for brewed. That's about to change tomorrow when I crack open the 'Breaking Brewed' stash that @Xpenno made with his own fair hands.
> 
> Cheers bud! ?


Clearview = RIP


----------



## DoubleShot

Would explain why I've not seen it in the shops for a while. Never tried it myself. Was it any good?


----------



## Xpenno

DoubleShot said:


> Would explain why I've not seen it in the shops for a while. Never tried it myself. Was it any good?


It was pretty neutral but it didn't have much going on. Better than ashbeck though.


----------



## Phil104

Just spotted the mighty GrindScience referenced on Barista Hustle&#8230; Alex and Matt say:

'I make no claims to the validity of this method, but huh:

Making water for coffee - SodaStream Method'

Great stuff Spence.

Today, CFUK, tomorrow the world.


----------



## DoubleShot

WOW! Awesome stuff! All that labour of love is already paying off dude!


----------



## robashton

First batch of Glasgow Style Magic Water is filtering through the BWT right now - I see an aeropress in my not too distant future. (Looks like I made enough Ca water for 10L so that's what I'm starting with)

Being the organised person I am, the order that contained all this stuff also contained a pack of Sharpies - that should go on the required list @Xpenno - gotta label those bottles!

Aimed my target hardness at '100' in the spreadsheet to play it a bit safe (and second batch at 120) (I know it's not 'additive' but it's hardly as if my kitchen is a laboratory anyway).

With any luck it'll be a bazillion times better than Ashbeck and I can start being smug and calling it Assbeck like the cool kids do, awaiting a phone call from City Car Club so I can start hiring cars and picking up RO (and getting rid of all this cardboard that Has Bean and Amazon keep sending me)

[edit]

First batch came out at exactly 100PPM, eery. Who knows what's in there, strange combo of Ca and Mg with a bit of that Glasgow summer.


----------



## robashton

Very good, A*, would drink again.


----------



## Xpenno

robashton said:


> First batch came out at exactly 100PPM, eery. Who knows what's in there, strange combo of Ca and Mg with a bit of that Glasgow summer.


There is a significant difference between TDS and Hardness of the final mixture. 100 TDS could be anywhere up to 160ish mg/L of hardness if there was nothing else in there as it is not a 1-2-1 relationship. Worth mentioning as you should not try and force the final water to a specific TDS especially as you are not using RO.

p.s. I'll add a Sharpie to the list as they are very useful


----------



## Xpenno

Phil104 said:


> Just spotted the mighty GrindScience referenced on Barista Hustle&#8230; Alex and Matt say:
> 
> 'I make no claims to the validity of this method, but huh:
> 
> Making water for coffee - SodaStream Method'
> 
> Great stuff Spence.
> 
> Today, CFUK, tomorrow the world.


Wow!


----------



## DoubleShot

World famous Spence! Time to don some dark shades lad, lol!


----------



## robashton

Xpenno said:


> There is a significant difference between TDS and Hardness of the final mixture. 100 TDS could be anywhere up to 160ish mg/L of hardness if there was nothing else in there as it is not a 1-2-1 relationship. Worth mentioning as you should not try and force the final water to a specific TDS especially as you are not using RO.
> 
> p.s. I'll add a Sharpie to the list as they are very useful


Totes gotcha,

Only reason for me to play around with recipe and note TDS is for taste comparison - as I don't know exactly what is in the bottle it is the only really reliable thing I have going (taste and recipe so I can repeat)

That said I'll be on RO soon enough so I won't invest too heavily in this - just good to know that RO isn't a necessity and more than reasonable solution to be had with this option. (That is, taking soft water and making it harder - tons of improvement to be had just by doing this)


----------



## Xpenno

robashton said:


> Totes gotcha,
> 
> Only reason for me to play around with recipe and note TDS is for taste comparison - as I don't know exactly what is in the bottle it is the only really reliable thing I have going (taste and recipe so I can repeat)
> 
> That said I'll be on RO soon enough so I won't invest too heavily in this - just good to know that RO isn't a necessity and more than reasonable solution to be had with this option. (That is, taking soft water and making it harder - tons of improvement to be had just by doing this)


 @robashton and others, any chance you could comment on my blog post if you get a sec and you like (or not) the water?

Cheers

Spence


----------



## robashton

I'll defo ping back shortly @Xpenno - I think I'm going to write my own blog entry, link back to yours and write a decent summary in your comments of both my experiments with my crappy tap water, with the RO water that I'll be using and how it compared.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Cheers Spence. Left comments.


----------



## GlennV

Thanks for that wonderful recipe, @Xpenno. I tried it and it certainly makes tasty coffee. I'm puzzled over the water chemistry though. You had a 2:1 hardness to alkalinity ratio. However, the stuff I made had essentially equal hardness and alkalinity before filtering (50mg/L Ca = 125 ppm Ca hardness as CaCO3, and 2.4meq alkalinity = 120 ppm alkalinity as CaCO3 - both measured with Salifert test kits.). In fact, I think they have to be equal if you've only used CaCO3, by the definition of "as CaCO3" units.

(After filtering the Ca was reduced to 15ppm as CaCO3, with the alkalinity unchanged. Presumably the other 110ppm is magnesium, as per the manufacturers claims, although I don't have a way of measuring this. )

Anyway, it made delicious coffee which, as you say, is what matters.


----------



## Xpenno

GlennV said:


> Thanks for that wonderful recipe, @Xpenno. I tried it and it certainly makes tasty coffee. I'm puzzled over the water chemistry though. You had a 2:1 hardness to alkalinity ratio. However, the stuff I made had essentially equal hardness and alkalinity before filtering (50mg/L Ca = 125 ppm Ca hardness as CaCO3, and 2.4meq alkalinity = 120 ppm alkalinity as CaCO3 - both measured with Salifert test kits.). In fact, I think they have to be equal if you've only used CaCO3, by the definition of "as CaCO3" units.
> 
> (After filtering the Ca was reduced to 15ppm as CaCO3, with the alkalinity unchanged. Presumably the other 110ppm is magnesium, as per the manufacturers claims, although I don't have a way of measuring this. )
> 
> Anyway, it made delicious coffee which, as you say, is what matters.


Thanks for the feedback GlennV. It's really interesting to hear some figures for the Ca/Mg replacement in the filter, I would never have imagined it be that high and I'm glad to hear that you are enjoying the results.

With regards to the Alkalinity, my figures were taken from testing the resulting water with my BWT alkalinity test kit which gives you a result in dKH, I then convert that to PPM. Your calcs look correct and I didn't run calcs for this new method like I did with my previous methods I just ran tests multiple times with different batches and then used that data to estimate scaling up and down the concentration. When I ran the tests I ended up with half the Alkalinity over Hardness. I'll run the tests again in the next few days and see if I can work out why the figures don't match your calcs or whether I made a fundamental error somewhere :S


----------



## GlennV

I've just been reading the latest BWT patent (below), which I presume describes the underlying technology they are using here. They describe replacing some of the calcium ions with magnesium ions, using a strongly acidic ion exchange resin, and a proportion of the remainder with hydrogen ions by means the usual weak acid system. The advertising literature suggests they're shooting for 30mg/L Mg2+, which is 125ppm as CaCO3 and is consistent with what I measured. This all suggests that it might be easier to use magnesium carbonate in the first place (which is more soluble) and skip the filtering step, the precise effects of which are likely to change over the life of the cartridge (my measurements were on a new cartridge).

This is fun!

www.google.com/patents/US20150060366


----------



## DoubleShot

@GlennV

You seem to speak the same language as @Xpenno. I'm impressed. 

What's your thoughts on this and this RO systems for someone wishing to have a stab at this themselves but who doesn't have a full understanding of all things water related?

Thanks.


----------



## Xpenno

GlennV said:


> I've just been reading the latest BWT patent (below), which I presume describes the underlying technology they are using here. They describe replacing some of the calcium ions with magnesium ions, using a strongly acidic ion exchange resin, and a proportion of the remainder with hydrogen ions by means the usual weak acid system. The advertising literature suggests they're shooting for 30mg/L Mg2+, which is 125ppm as CaCO3 and is consistent with what I measured. This all suggests that it might be easier to use magnesium carbonate in the first place (which is more soluble) and skip the filtering step, the precise effects of which are likely to change over the life of the cartridge (my measurements were on a new cartridge).
> 
> This is fun!
> 
> www.google.com/patents/US20150060366


Nice idea. I'm not sure if I have any Magnesium Carbonate (I've got a lot of different stuff lying around following all of my experiments) but I might give it a try if I have









I might also look into what Britta filters actually do to the mixture as well. I have no idea if they affect Hardness/Alkalinity/neither or both.


----------



## robashton

wouldn't a good solution be to blend some ca water and mg water together and skip the filtering step?


----------



## Xpenno

robashton said:


> wouldn't a good solution be to blend some ca water and mg water together and skip the filtering step?


Depends on your reasons for filtering?

I mixed some filtered and unfiltered last night and the results were good but didn't have time to side by side them with 100% filtered.


----------



## robashton

Xpenno said:


> Depends on your reasons for filtering?
> 
> I mixed some filtered and unfiltered last night and the results were good but didn't have time to side by side them with 100% filtered.


I guess undissolved solids would be pretty bad for my espresso machine too if they got through


----------



## Xpenno

robashton said:


> I guess undissolved solids would be pretty bad for my espresso machine too if they got through


Exactamundo!

Probably ok for brewed though.


----------



## DoubleShot

Cue...two different recipes/systems, one solely for espresso and the other for all things brewed.

What have you started here @Xpenno


----------



## Xpenno

DoubleShot said:


> Cue...two different recipes/systems, one solely for espresso and the other for all things brewed.
> 
> What have you started here @Xpenno


I've spent 8 months messing with different ideas, methods, solutions, chemicals etc.. so whatever happens from here is relatively easy going. My ultimate goal is to get to a method that's as simple as possible to get great water. I'm not going to obsess over perfect ca/mg ratios any more as I just don't think that it matters as much, I just want a known, solid water that I can make easily.


----------



## DoubleShot

Xpenno said:


> My ultimate goal is to get to a method that's as simple as possible to get great water.


I'm with you on that front! Wasn't considering doing something like this myself as I don't fully understand all of this geek speak about water. Also thought it would require a costly investment plus loads of time and additional space (my coffee gear takes up enough already, lol!). But after garydyke1 mentioned just how important water is and can be as much as 95% of espresso, I started to get interested.

Also I'm being talked into giving it a go by another member who is keener than me to have a dabble!


----------



## GlennV

Xpenno said:


> Nice idea. I'm not sure if I have any Magnesium Carbonate (I've got a lot of different stuff lying around following all of my experiments) but I might give it a try if I have


I have a bag full of the stuff. It's for climbing though, so I'm not sure I'd like to drink it. I've just ordered a couple of tins of food grade (postage was more than the stuff itself). I'll happily send one to your neck of the woods when it arrives if you'd like.



Xpenno said:


> I might also look into what Britta filters actually do to the mixture as well. I have no idea if they affect Hardness/Alkalinity/neither or both.


Ah that I do know about, Brita filtered Cambridge water being my staple. A fresh cartridge reduces Cambridge water to around 120 hardness/60 alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3). After a week or so it's up to 180/120. This doesn't affect the taste though, as boiling will reduce even the raw tap water to 120/60 anyway. Brita filters (which use weak acid cation exchange with hydrogen) will always reduce the hardness and alkalinity by roughly the same amount (in ppm as CaCO3), as does scaling.

Edit: What I don't know is what a Brita does to water that's already 100/50 or thereabouts. That's easy to check though - I'll try it later.

I got an email to say that my copy of Maxwell Colonna-Dashwood's new book was dispatched a couple of days ago. I wonder if it will arrive today, I'm looking forward to seeing what his suggestions are ...


----------



## johnealey

DoubleShot said:


> What's your thoughts on this and this RO systems for someone wishing to have a stab at this themselves but who doesn't have a full understanding of all things water related?
> 
> Thanks.


Have been reading this thread and Spence's grind science for a while now and having tasted the output at the Rave day ( albeit a few shots in the afternoon were tart to some but I say break through that to find the flavours , was myself hogging your time PM on the vesuvius) and not being keen on the idea of RO from Aquatic centres, would be interested in knowing people thoughts on the above and other RO systems.

Am at a crossroads at the moment either heading down a plumbed in filter route ( probably BWT & future purchase of something beginning with V or L) or RO route currently BWT jug filtering either Waitrose, waitrose / volvic or tap to suit, so only really need the addition of Soda syphon ( and RO) to improve one of the primary ingredients.

Any pointers gratefully received, apologies if going slightly off tangent but do see the benefit of asking it here.

John


----------



## Russ

@GlennV @Xpenno

Any thoughts on the RO units mentioned above or any general RO making tips? You've got a few of us interested, looking at the costs of these units it would appear they could be economical alternatives to bottled water and give better results?

Thanks

Russ


----------



## Xpenno

Russ said:


> @GlennV @Xpenno
> 
> Any thoughts on the RO units mentioned above or any general RO making tips? You've got a few of us interested, looking at the costs of these units it would appear they could be economical alternatives to bottled water and give better results?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Russ


I got mine from Amazon. I got the one with added pump as I have low mains pressure. ISpring 123 or something. Works well.


----------



## DoubleShot

@Xpenno

Linky please mate (had a look and there's quite a few different ones by iSpring), when you get a chance.

Ta.

Currently have this connected under the sink. It's been out of action due to a leak quite a few years ago. But if it's just a case of swapping the filters that are there for different ones, will try getting the leak sorted and then have 'special' water on tap!


----------



## Russ

@DoubleShot

The first filter pod says activated carbon on it, what do the other 3 say on them?

Russ


----------



## DoubleShot

Top one - inline activated carbon filter (different part # number to the two larger ones below)

Activated carbon filter x 2 (both the same)

Sediment filter


----------



## Russ

Top one looks damaged (cracked all the way round the bevel on the end) must be where its leaking ? I wouldn't mind betting that with a bit of of diy you could replace that pod with a RO pod, replace the carbon filters and sediment filter in the bottom three and plumb in a waste and your be good to go. Maybe send the photo to RO Man, they may be able to advise if its possible?

Cheers

Russ


----------



## DoubleShot

Who is this RO Man, you speak of?


----------



## Russ

@DoubleShot

Name of an RO company:

http://www.ro-man.com/shop/index.php?route=common/home

Russ


----------



## DoubleShot

Post #262 you mean?

Ah yes, the two links that you sent me. Just made a mental note of the cost not the suppliers.

Thanks.


----------



## Xpenno

DoubleShot said:


> @Xpenno
> 
> Linky please mate (had a look and there's quite a few different ones by iSpring), when you get a chance.
> 
> Ta.
> 
> Currently have this connected under the sink. It's been out of action due to a leak quite a few years ago. But if it's just a case of swapping the filters that are there for different ones, will try getting the leak sorted and then have 'special' water on tap!


http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B003XELTTG/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?qid=1442265393&sr=8-5&pi=AC_SX110_SY165&keywords=ispring&dpPl=1&dpID=51qJioFE1nL&ref=plSrch

Mine is this one but with a pump


----------



## DoubleShot

One serious bit of kit, why am I not surprised?!


----------



## robashton

Was just drinking some bottled water in France, tasted amazing, super buttery mouthfeel and a really pleasing richness.

Looked at the label, 115 ca, 40 mg, 20 na, 305 bicarb, 221 sulfates (!!?), total of 720mg/l

I guess I'm not using it for my coffee tomorrow then


----------



## robashton

Blend volvic and waitrose.


----------



## Thecatlinux

Xpenno said:


> @robashton and others, any chance you could comment on my blog post if you get a sec and you like (or not) the water?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Spence


Blog layout is looking good , and lots of great things to read . TCL


----------



## MWJB

robashton said:


> Was just drinking some bottled water in France, tasted amazing, super buttery mouthfeel and a really pleasing richness.
> 
> Looked at the label, 115 ca, 40 mg, 20 na, 305 bicarb, 221 sulfates (!!?), total of 720mg/l
> 
> I guess I'm not using it for my coffee tomorrow then


It's hard, but bicarb isn't counted in total TDS.


----------



## robashton

MWJB said:


> It's hard, but bicarb isn't counted in total TDS.


I wasn't the one doing the maths, the bottle stated "720mg total dissolved solids" (in french though and might be 715 actually)

It tastes amazing after drinking Glasgow water for the last six months


----------



## GlennV

MWJB said:


> It's hard, but bicarb isn't counted in total TDS.


Up to half the bicarb can count towards the TDS, it depends on the other ions present.


----------



## robashton

Bloody science innit.

Did I mention it tastes great?


----------



## GlennV

robashton said:


> Bloody science innit.
> 
> Did I mention it tastes great?


I think you did!

Anyway, a topical worked example:

If you dissolve 84mg/L Magnesium Carbonate in water then the total dissolved solids (dry residue) will be, obviously, 84mg/L. The water content would be reported as 24mg/L Magnesium and 122 mg/L bicarbonate (because the bicarb is formed from dissolved CO2 and water as well as the 60mg/L carbonate you added). To get the tds of this water back, you would calculate 24 + (60/122) * 122 = 84. This water would be 100mg/L, as CaCO3, total hardness (24*100/24) and 100mg/L, as CaCO3, alkalinity (122*50/61). Magic innit!

The background to these sorts of calculations is very nicely described on Xpenno's site.


----------



## DoubleShot

Russ said:


> Top one looks damaged (cracked all the way round the bevel on the end) must be where its leaking ?


Had a quick check and the photo is deceiving, it's actually got a plastic sleeve (removable) around it and what you thought looked like a crack all the way round the foremost end, is where the plastic sleeve finishes.


----------



## risky

robashton said:


> It tastes amazing after drinking Glasgow water for the last six months


I'm quite fond of our water :/


----------



## robashton

risky said:


> I'm quite fond of our water :/


Locals always love drinking their own water

er... phrasing

You get used to hard/soft/etc - I move around quite a lot and while I'll happily down a few pints of Glasgow's finest there is something about a proper thick mineralised water that I find very appealing in the mouth.


----------



## GlennV

I've been experimenting with the water chemistries recommended in Maxwell and Chris Hendon's new book, and now I'm more confused than ever. These and Spence's water are both very good, but very different. This evening I cupped a Colombian (Inza Cauca, roasted yesterday by Hot Numbers of Cambridge) with 3 different waters

A) Waitrose essential

B) Waitrose essential + 50mg/L Magnesium Carbonate (made by adding a small amount of concentrated solution of Magnesium Carbonate in carbonated water, as in Spence's method but made directly with magnesium instead of calcium carbonate - the result is similar in composition to Spence's magic water, but possibly different in some essential way of course)

C) Waitress essential + 0.65g/L Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulfate) made by adding 1.3g to a 2L bottle - this gives a chemisty within Maxwell's recommended zone.

At 6 mins, after breaking the crusts at 5,

A was rather flat and uninteresting.

B was beginning to get tasty

C was extraordinary - with a massive hit of blackcurrants.

After 15mins, B had caught up and C was perhaps beginning to get a bit overpowering.

Tasting was blind, the order just came out like that.

C is really easy to make up, you can get Epsom salts in Boots.


----------



## GlennV

A quick follow-up ...

People have asked about using C) in an espresso machine. It should be fine, but I'd be inclined to wait and see if a consensus emerges first. I have it in mine, with seemingly good results, but it isn't easy to do comparative tests. Note that this water is very different in composition to anything I've seen recommended for coffee before - it has the Ca/Mg hardness of the hardest tap water, but is low in bicarbonates. I was posting in the hope that a couple of others might try it. A direct comparison it to authentic @Xpenno water would be very interesting!

If you do try this use B.P. Epsom salts, not the stuff you put in your bath, and note that 1.3g is within the "medicinal" range - so don't drink 2L of the stuff in a day unless ... well, let's not go there. If this works, I'll be substituting Magnesium Chloride for some of it long term (at 0.8g per gram of Epsom salts).


----------



## Xpenno

GlennV said:


> A quick follow-up ...
> 
> People have asked about using C) in an espresso machine. It should be fine, but I'd be inclined to wait and see if a consensus emerges first. I have it in mine, with seemingly good results, but it isn't easy to do comparative tests. Note that this water is very different in composition to anything I've seen recommended for coffee before - it has the Ca/Mg hardness of the hardest tap water, but is low in bicarbonates. I was posting in the hope that a couple of others might try it. A direct comparison it to authentic @Xpenno water would be very interesting!
> 
> If you do try this use B.P. Epsom salts, not the stuff you put in your bath, and note that 1.3g is within the "medicinal" range - so don't drink 2L of the stuff in a day unless ... well, let's not go there. If this works, I'll be substituting Magnesium Chloride for some of it long term (at 0.8g per gram of Epsom salts).


Hey Glenn,

good stuff! So this was where I started out. I was finding that when you use Epson Salts, Calcium Chloride etc.. that although in Maxwell's desired range (which at the time was 2:1 hardness to alkalinity), that the coffee started to become very inconsistent and more than often unbalanced and sometimes astringent. They also lacked the aroma, crema, creamy body and mouthfeel that were present in waters containing the Calcium Carbonate solution. I was pulling my hair out of months with this and it's why I ended up where I did. That said I'm always open minded to revisiting









In your method C, by my rough calcs, you are making water with General Hardness of about 320mg/L as CaCO3 and Alkalinity of around 33 mg/L as CaCO3. I don't have Maxwell's book to hand but that sounds higher than the desirable levels in his chart and of course my calcs could well be wrong. I've not used the ones included in the book so will check them out when I get home









RE MgCO3, I tested this earlier this week. In my cupping tests (using a Chocolaty Brazil roasted in Bath) at the same hardness the CaCO3 water had better balance and less astringent almost bitterness although not in a an over extracty way. Gary and I found similar astringency when we brewed with the water made up from Epsom Salts and Calcium Chloride. I did however find that the body was similar to coffee brewed with CaCO3 or at least close enough. I also tried a 50/50 mix which worked very well.

With regards to Epson Salts and Calcium Chloride, these should both be safe for use in espresso machines from a scale perspective (see my comment below RE Chlorides) as they create permanent hardness, i.e. they don't come out of solution when heated like Calcium Carbonate and Magnesium Carbonate. In my post it was my theory that it was the difference in the water was down to permanent hardness vs temporary hardness and this was why the soda stream method was preferred by me. I did have a hybrid in my espresso machine where I made a batch of my Calcium water up to general hardness of 70mg/L as CaCO3 (alkalinity as you quite rightly pointed out being 70ish mg/L as well) I then made up the hardness to 140mg/L as CaCO3 using Epsom Salts and I did get some tasty espresso with this combo and the fact that it has a more preferential Langelier Index meant that it was more stable thus less likely to scale, so win/win. Tasting water for espresso is a pain as you have to flush the boiler through each time









If you are experimenting with Chloride salts then you need to try and keep the levels below 30ppm as in high concentrations Chlorides are responsible for serious boiler corrosion.

It's good to have others who are finally experimenting with this as I was starting to go a bit crazy trying to perfect it on my own









Cheers

Spence


----------



## GlennV

Xpenno said:


> Hey Glenn,
> 
> In your method C, by my rough calcs, you are making water with General Hardness of about 320mg/L as CaCO3 and Alkalinity of around 33 mg/L as CaCO3. I don't have Maxwell's book to hand but that sounds higher than the desirable levels in his chart and of course my calcs could well be wrong. I've not used the ones included in the book so will check them out when I get home


I agree with your calculations, but Maxwell's charts are "as Ca2+" and "as HCO3-", not "as CaCO3" (I emailed him to check). Water C) is about 120 ppm GH as Ca2+ and 40ppm KH as HCO3-. It's crazy. I'm not at all sure about the balance (I'm used to leftovers from cuppings tasting delicious when cold, and this wasn't) but the results were certainly big and bold. Very much looking for a second opinion!


----------



## MWJB

GlennV said:


> I agree with your calculations, but Maxwell's charts are "as Ca2+" and "as HCO3-", not "as CaCO3" (I emailed him to check). Water C) is about 120 ppm GH as Ca2+ and 40ppm KH as HCO3-. It's crazy. I'm not at all sure about the balance (I'm used to leftovers from cuppings tasting delicious when cold, and this wasn't) but the results were certainly big and bold. Very much looking for a second opinion!


How do we consolidate figures between Maxwell's chart & Xpenno's method if the calculations aren't apples to apples?

This is probably getting hard to follow for the non chemists.


----------



## Rhys

This has all lost me lol. Just thought I'd ask if anyone knows is Morrisons Pennine still water is OK, but will just stick to Volvic I think (or Ashbeck)


----------



## Xpenno

GlennV said:


> I agree with your calculations, but Maxwell's charts are "as Ca2+" and "as HCO3-", not "as CaCO3" (I emailed him to check). Water C) is about 120 ppm GH as Ca2+ and 40ppm KH as HCO3-. It's crazy. I'm not at all sure about the balance (I'm used to leftovers from cuppings tasting delicious when cold, and this wasn't) but the results were certainly big and bold. Very much looking for a second opinion!


Interesting....

When I saw Maxwell at the weekend he did mention that he wished he would have included a conversion/definitions table in the book. Hopefully he can still make something to rule out confusion :S


----------



## GlennV

MWJB said:


> How do we consolidate figures between Maxwell's chart & Xpenno's method if the calculations aren't apples to apples?
> 
> This is probably getting hard to follow for the non chemists.


Multiply GH by 2.5 and KH by 0.82 going from Maxwell's to Xpenno's chart, the same conversion factors as going from the numbers usually printed on the labels of bottled water to "as CaCO3". Yes, it is a minefield.

If anyone's interested in trying "C", just add 1.3g of Epsom Salts B.P. to a 2L bottle of Waitrose essential and shake a bit - it dissolves very easily. I would suspect that it's better suited to lighter, fruitier coffees - but that's just a guess.


----------



## Xpenno

MWJB said:


> How do we consolidate figures between Maxwell's chart & Xpenno's method if the calculations aren't apples to apples?
> 
> This is probably getting hard to follow for the non chemists.


It's pretty easy to convert between the figures. I'll give it a go using those provided in the coffee book and see if it changes my thoughts on the method.


----------



## Xpenno

GlennV said:


> Multiply GH by 2.5 and KH by 0.82 going from Maxwell's to Xpenno's chart, the same conversion factors as going from the numbers usually printed on the labels of bottled water to "as CaCO3". Yes, it is a minefield.
> 
> If anyone's interested in trying "C", just add 1.3g of Epsom Salts B.P. to a 2L bottle of Waitrose essential and shake a bit - it dissolves very easily. I would suspect that it's better suited to lighter, fruitier coffees - but that's just a guess.


So when you're adding Magnesium how are you converting that to Ca2+? Are you multiplying or dividing by 1.646ish?


----------



## Sk8-bizarre

GlennV said:


> I've been experimenting with the water chemistries recommended in Maxwell and Chris Hendon's new book, and now I'm more confused than ever. These and Spence's water are both very good, but very different. This evening I cupped a Colombian (Inza Cauca, roasted yesterday by Hot Numbers of Cambridge) with 3 different waters
> 
> A) Waitrose essential
> 
> B) Waitrose essential + 50mg/L Magnesium Carbonate (made by adding a small amount of concentrated solution of Magnesium Carbonate in carbonated water, as in Spence's method but made directly with magnesium instead of calcium carbonate - the result is similar in composition to Spence's magic water, but possibly different in some essential way of course)
> 
> C) Waitress essential + 0.65g/L Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulfate) made by adding 1.3g to a 2L bottle - this gives a chemisty within Maxwell's recommended zone.
> 
> At 6 mins, after breaking the crusts at 5,
> 
> A was rather flat and uninteresting.
> 
> B was beginning to get tasty
> 
> C was extraordinary - with a massive hit of blackcurrants.
> 
> After 15mins, B had caught up and C was perhaps beginning to get a bit overpowering.
> 
> Tasting was blind, the order just came out like that.
> 
> C is really easy to make up, you can get Epsom salts in Boots.


I'm gonna get this book probably, maybe, I expect.

I am using Waitrose Essential all the time now anyway and so will give 'C' a go though am a little confused as I thought I was just supposed to be getting high on Epsom Salts nowadays. I just can't keep up with the kids!!


----------



## GlennV

Xpenno said:


> So when you're adding Magnesium how are you converting that to Ca2+? Are you multiplying or dividing by 1.646ish?


Yep. 24mg Mg= 40mg Ca, there or thereabouts. I haven't got the book in front of me either, but it suggests somewhere treating 1 unit of Mg, by weight, as having the same effect as 1.5 units of Ca.


----------



## Step21

GlennV said:


> Multiply GH by 2.5 and KH by 0.82 going from Maxwell's to Xpenno's chart, the same conversion factors as going from the numbers usually printed on the labels of bottled water to "as CaCO3". Yes, it is a minefield.
> 
> If anyone's interested in trying "C", just add 1.3g of Epsom Salts B.P. to a 2L bottle of Waitrose essential and shake a bit - it dissolves very easily. I would suspect that it's better suited to lighter, fruitier coffees - but that's just a guess.


To make 1L rather than 2L, is the addition simply half the stated quantity of Epsom salts (i.e. 0.65g/L)? Nothing in this water chemistry business is ever simple, so just checking!

I have dabbled with Epsom Salts additions previously and never had good results. This seems so simple to do, so worth a go.


----------



## Xpenno

Step21 said:


> To make 1L rather than 2L, is the addition simply half the stated quantity of Epsom salts (i.e. 0.65g/L)? Nothing in this water chemistry business is ever simple, so just checking!
> 
> I have dabbled with Epsom Salts additions previously and never had good results. This seems so simple to do, so worth a go.


That's correct


----------



## Xpenno

GlennV said:


> I haven't got the book in front of me either, but it suggests somewhere treating 1 unit of Mg, by weight, as having the same effect as 1.5 units of Ca.


I don't have it in front of me either but is that figure not referring to the relative binding energies of the molecules as per their research paper? On that, Magnesium had around 1.5x the binding energy to most of the main flavour compounds over Calcium?


----------



## GlennV

I don't think so - it follows a discussion about it being the number, not weight, of ions that matters. It's the box on p76.


----------



## Step21

I added 0.65g/l epsom salts to waitrose essential and tried 2 brews with it. I was very familiar with the beans used.

Brew 1 - Immersion using a fruity Kenyan. First impressions for me are of a salty/chemical tinge to the brew. It is however very sweet consistently through the cup and the blackberry fruit is fantastic.

Brew 2 - Brazen. Not liking the salty tinge i used 50/50 WE/WE + epsom salts. Different bean which previously given apple fruit and chocolate (but is waning a bit now). The salty tinge was not so noticeable but the cup was very one dimensional (little fruit) with a sweet creamy caramel body. Not unpleasant by any means.

I might try a few more experiments but i don't think epsom salts are going to be a winner for me tastewise. Saying that, this is the first time i've had anything drinkable from adding it. I'd like to try the "B" method of adding magnesium to carbonated water but don't have a soda stream.


----------



## Xpenno

I tried again with waitrose and Epsom salts, same results as before, astringent, drying coffee that lacks body buy has some amazing aromas and fruit notes. Unfortunately for me the bad points heavily outweigh the good.

I'm now working on a hybrid calcium carbonate with added Magnesium (both chloride and sulphate) and sodium. It'll be a pain in the arse to make if it's any good


----------



## GlennV

Interesting ...



Step21 said:


> I might try a few more experiments but i don't think epsom salts are going to be a winner for me tastewise. Saying that, this is the first time i've had anything drinkable from adding it. I'd like to try the "B" method of adding magnesium to carbonated water but don't have a soda stream.


You could use a small amount of Waitrose Essential Sparkling to dissolve the calcium or magnesium carbonate, it's the same thing with added CO2 as far as I can see.


----------



## Xpenno

Made a hybrid Calcium Carbonate / Magnesium Sulphate water last night. Was tasting great on brewed today.

Approx specs were

Hardness 120mg/L (50/50 Ca/Mg Split)

Alkalinity 60mg/L

Na 9mg/L from Sea Salt (approx)


----------



## MWJB

Xpenno said:


> Made a hybrid Calcium Carbonate / Magnesium Sulphate water last night. Was tasting great on brewed today.
> 
> Approx specs were
> 
> Hardness 120mg/L (50/50 Ca/Mg Split)
> 
> Alkalinity 60mg/L
> 
> Na 9mg/L from Sea Salt (approx)


Sounds great, but how does this compare in terms of GH & KH to Maxwell's guide?


----------



## Xpenno

MWJB said:


> Sounds great, but how does this compare in terms of GH & KH to Maxwell's guide?


Dunno, I use my guide and taste buds these days. The stuff in Maxwell's book is where I started out and is still interesting but based on my tests, preferences and choice in beans etc... my water is better. The specs in the book talk about a range of usable figures, I believe that this water sits within those usable figures.


----------



## GlennV

Xpenno said:


> Made a hybrid Calcium Carbonate / Magnesium Sulphate water last night. Was tasting great on brewed today.
> 
> Approx specs were
> 
> Hardness 120mg/L (50/50 Ca/Mg Split)
> 
> Alkalinity 60mg/L
> 
> Na 9mg/L from Sea Salt (approx)


Yep, that would make good coffee water. In terms of hardness and alkalinity it's what you get if you put hard Cambridge water (chalk aquifer) through a fresh Brita filter, or boil it for a few minutes. It's also what Jim Schulman recommends in his Insanely Long Water FAQ (well 100/50, but close enough). As I prefaced my post the other evening, I remain as confused as ever!


----------



## GlennV

This morning's cup of Hot Number's Inza Cauca was brewed in a Minneapolis hotel room using a Keurig (no kettle) a couple of cardboard cups, an aeropress to filter it all with and whatever came out of the tap. Tasted excellent! Anyway, I thought it might be useful to run through the different ways of expressing concentration, to explain where the various conversion factors come from.

The first point to note is that when you express, say, an calcium concentration "as Ca(2+)" or "as calcium carbonate" (CaCO3) you're not making a statement about what form the calcium is in (it will be Ca(2+)), or where it came from. You can even dissolve magnesium chloride in water and express the magnesium concentration "as CaCO3". The best, and ultimately least confusing way of expressing concentration is as milli equivalents/litre (meq/L). Now, a mole of ions is 6 point something times 10 to the power 23 of them, and weighs its atomic weight (the number of protons+neutrons per atom, approximately) in grams. A mole of hydrogen ions, protons, weighs close to a gram. The number of "equivalents" of an ion is the number of moles multiplied by it's valency, so an equivalent is essentially a measure of charge without the sign. 1 mole of sodium ions is 1 equivalent, as Na(+) has lost one election. 1 mole of calcium ions is 2 equivalents, as the ion is Ca(2+). The "equivalent weight" of an ion is it's atomic weight divided by its valency. So, Ca(2+) has an equivalent weight of 40/2=20, and a carbonate ion 60/2=30. An equivalent of an ion weighs it's equivalent weight in grams (as the valency cancels out). The equivalent weight of CaCO3 is the sum of the equivalent weights of it's ions, so 50. Finally (!) the concentration "as CaCO3" is the concentration in equivalents multiplied by the equivalent weight of CaCO3. So, to express a concentration in mg/L "as CaCO3" you multiply the meq/L by 50. To convert from "as Ca(2+)" to "as CaCO3" you divide by 20 (to turn it back into equivalents) and then mutiply by 50, so multiply by 2.5 overall. The bicarbonate ion (HCO3(-) has an equivalent weight of 61, so to go from "as HCO3(-)" to "as CaCO3" you divide by 61 and multiply by 50. For Mg(2+) you divide by 12 and multiply by 50 etc.

Counting in equivalents has many other advantages. Electrical charge is conserved in reactions, and so are equivalents (moles aren't). If you dissolve 1 meq of sodium chloride and 1 meq of magnesium carbonate in a litre of water, then the result is the same as starting with 1 meq of sodium bicarbonate and 1 meq magnesium chloride (after the concentration of dissolved carbon dioxide has reached equilibrium with the atmosphere). It also means that if you dissolve 100mg of calcium carbonate in a litre of water then the calcium hardness, as CaCO3, is 100mg/L, and the alkalinity, in the same units, is 100mg/L. But, as I hope is now clear, that isn't the definition of what "as CaCO3" means!

Corrections welcome ...


----------



## MWJB

So is "meq/L" equivalent to mg/l, Hendon/Maxwell's chart & the way water composition is reported on the label of a bottle?


----------



## GlennV

No, not at all. Equivalents, like moles, are a count of things - mg express the mass of stuff. Quoting from what I wrote

"An equivalent of an ion weighs it's equivalent weight in grams"

So

1meq of sodium weighs 23mg

1meq of calcium weighs 20mg

1meq of magnesium weighs 12mg

1meq of bicarbonate weighs 61mg

all are 50mg expressed as CaCO3 (which is a fake measurement that is more like a count than a mass).


----------



## robashton

For spro would it be reasonable to create mg and ca water through the dissolving of magnesium sulphates (or carbonates - question as to which would be desirable with resulting solution) and calcium carbonates, blending and watering down and then running through a charcoal filter (any other filters that might work that aren't going to muck with my water chemistry too much?) to remove undissolved solids?

seems that'd be a safe option for creating something known?


----------



## MWJB

#1 Strathmore x2 parts to Glaceau x5 parts, averaged composition from label info: bicarbonate 42mg/l, Ca 32mg/l, Mg 15mg/l, dry residue 154mg/l.

vs...

#2 Strathmore x1 parts to Glaceau x2 parts to Volvic x3 parts, averaged composition from label info: bicarbonate 65mg/l, Ca 24mg/l, Mg 12mg/l, dry residue 152mg/l.

Then...

#2 Strathmore x1 parts to Glaceau x2 parts to Volvic x3 parts, averaged composition from label info: bicarbonate 65mg/l, Ca 24mg/l, Mg 12mg/l, dry residue 152mg/l.

vs...

#3 Strathmore x2 parts to Glaceau x3 parts, averaged composition from label info: bicarbonate 65mg/l, Ca 41mg/l, Mg 15mg/l, dry residue 202mg/l.

EYs were identical (+/-0.01%TDS or 0.2%EY) between pairs. 19min steeps with single a NSEW stir at fill, full depth of pot.

#1 had a dry, slightly bitter burned sugar finish (reminded me of Waitrose Essential, low bicarb?), but otherwise good.

#2 Sweetest & juiciest with no off flavours in the finish.

#3 Bolder, but again a drying sensation in the finish.

I was surprised that there wasn't a more obvious shift in pulling power between the combinations, but it was just a few brews.


----------



## risky

Any use in mucking about with Sera Mineral Salt (Water Hardening). Have some laying about, dissolved 1 teaspoon into a 2L bottle of Waitrose. Resulting TDS was reading at 1500! No idea if this would be any use for using to mix with Waitrose to harden it a bit?


----------



## risky

Ignore my previous idea about the Sera, it tasted disgusting.

Did anyone see the post on coffeehustle about water?

Perger says:



> I highly recommend using ready-made waters rather than cooking. They're consistent, you can't poison anyone, and ignorance is bliss


Surprised by his attitude, particularly 'ignorance is bliss'. Is he basically downplaying the importance of water?

The Yanks seem fond of Poland Springs for bottled but the content seems to vary depending on which spring they take it from:

Calcium: 4.3-5.8mg/l

Sodium: 2.2-7.2mg/l

Magnesium: 0.92-1.7mg/l

pH: 6.6-7.4

CaCO3: 28

A couple of interesting links I picked out from the coffeehustle discussion, firstly Experimenting with the effect of water quality on coffee from Five Senses and the Five Senses Water Recipe which seems nice and simple

Also edited the title to better reflect the fact that we are now talking about water for coffee in general. Hope Maxwell doesn't have the phrase copyrighted!


----------



## Xpenno

risky said:


> Ignore my previous idea about the Sera, it tasted disgusting.
> 
> Did anyone see the post on coffeehustle about water?
> 
> Perger says:
> 
> Surprised by his attitude, particularly 'ignorance is bliss'. Is he basically downplaying the importance of water?
> 
> The Yanks seem fond of Poland Springs for bottled but the content seems to vary depending on which spring they take it from:
> 
> Calcium: 4.3-5.8mg/l
> 
> Sodium: 2.2-7.2mg/l
> 
> Magnesium: 0.92-1.7mg/l
> 
> pH: 6.6-7.4
> 
> CaCO3: 28
> 
> A couple of interesting links I picked out from the coffeehustle discussion, firstly Experimenting with the effect of water quality on coffee from Five Senses and the Five Senses Water Recipe which seems nice and simple
> 
> Also edited the title to better reflect the fact that we are now talking about water for coffee in general. Hope Maxwell doesn't have the phrase copyrighted!


1500 TDs is so far away from ideal I'm not surprised it tasted bad. I wouldn't be drinking much of that.

If you have OK water then you are fine so MP probably doesn't have to care. There is more of a difference between good and bad water than its make-up I.e. ratio of Mg to Ca.

That 5 senses stuff does not make good coffee water. It's where I started and quickly moved on from. There are posts on hear discussing it and I mentioned it on my blog.


----------



## risky

Xpenno said:


> 1500 TDs is so far away from ideal I'm not surprised it tasted bad. I wouldn't be drinking much of that.
> 
> If you have OK water then you are fine so MP probably doesn't have to care. There is more of a difference between good and bad water than its make-up I.e. ratio of Mg to Ca.
> 
> That 5 senses stuff does not make good coffee water. It's where I started and quickly moved on from. There are posts on hear discussing it and I mentioned it on my blog.


I didn't use the 1500 stuff neat, I used about 5ml mixed into the waitrose but it was rotten.

I did wonder if the five senses stuff had been covered before. Seemed far too easy a solution. Have you been in contact with them? They seem fairly open to discussing it in the name of progress.


----------



## Xpenno

MWJB said:


> #1 Strathmore x2 parts to Glaceau x5 parts, averaged composition from label info: bicarbonate 42mg/l, Ca 32mg/l, Mg 15mg/l, dry residue 154mg/l.
> 
> vs...
> 
> #2 Strathmore x1 parts to Glaceau x2 parts to Volvic x3 parts, averaged composition from label info: bicarbonate 65mg/l, Ca 24mg/l, Mg 12mg/l, dry residue 152mg/l.
> 
> Then...
> 
> #2 Strathmore x1 parts to Glaceau x2 parts to Volvic x3 parts, averaged composition from label info: bicarbonate 65mg/l, Ca 24mg/l, Mg 12mg/l, dry residue 152mg/l.
> 
> vs...
> 
> #3 Strathmore x2 parts to Glaceau x3 parts, averaged composition from label info: bicarbonate 65mg/l, Ca 41mg/l, Mg 15mg/l, dry residue 202mg/l.
> 
> EYs were identical (+/-0.01%TDS or 0.2%EY) between pairs. 19min steeps with single a NSEW stir at fill, full depth of pot.
> 
> #1 had a dry, slightly bitter burned sugar finish (reminded me of Waitrose Essential, low bicarb?), but otherwise good.
> 
> #2 Sweetest & juiciest with no off flavours in the finish.
> 
> #3 Bolder, but again a drying sensation in the finish.
> 
> I was surprised that there wasn't a more obvious shift in pulling power between the combinations, but it was just a few brews.


1 and 3 have low bicarb to hardness ratio. Bicarb stabilises the ph during the brew. What you are probably tasting is the effect of the pH spiking due to the low bicarb, this in turn generates a more acidic reaction which will extract a different proportion of flavour compounds.

RE the TDS, over that period you are probably saturating the water and extracting as much as you can from that specific coffee. I don't think that the pulling power will necessarily directly relate to a higher TDS at least I've not seen any evidence that shows this in practice.

I think a water that is efficient at extracting is more useful in brews with lower contact time such as espresso and pour over.


----------



## Xpenno

risky said:


> I didn't use the 1500 stuff neat, I used about 5ml mixed into the waitrose but it was rotten.
> 
> I did wonder if the five senses stuff had been covered before. Seemed far too easy a solution. Have you been in contact with them? They seem fairly open to discussing it in the name of progress.


Ah, that's ok then









I have spoken to Jermey yes.


----------



## MWJB

Xpenno said:


> 1 and 3 have low bicarb to hardness ratio. Bicarb stabilises the ph during the brew. What you are probably tasting is the effect of the pH spiking due to the low bicarb, this in turn generates a more acidic reaction which will extract a different proportion of flavour compounds.
> 
> RE the TDS, over that period you are probably saturating the water and extracting as much as you can from that specific coffee. I don't think that the pulling power will necessarily directly relate to a higher TDS at least I've not seen any evidence that shows this in practice.
> 
> I think a water that is efficient at extracting is more useful in brews with lower contact time such as espresso and pour over.


Thanks Spence.

They weren't mega high extractions, low side of normal, I think coffee/roast played more of a part in yield than what is possible with the water due to saturation (say relative to a better temp profile steep). I don't see the time as "long" as there's no flow (therefore 'contact time' is hard to consolidate between drip & steep), it's my 'go to' steep time when assessing a coffee (often longer if drinking for pleasure).

Surely by eliminating percolation, this is the only way to see the water's extracting power?

For the other readers, water #2 was the one that was closest to Spence's spec compared to the other 2 (going by label values).


----------



## Xpenno

MWJB said:


> Thanks Spence.
> 
> They weren't mega high extractions, low side of normal, I think coffee/roast played more of a part in yield than what is possible with the water due to saturation (say relative to a better temp profile steep). I don't see the time as "long" as there's no flow (therefore 'contact time' is hard to consolidate between drip & steep), it's my 'go to' steep time when assessing a coffee (often longer if drinking for pleasure).
> 
> Surely by eliminating percolation, this is the only way to see the water's extracting power?
> 
> For the other readers, water #2 was the one that was closest to Spence's spec compared to the other 2 (going by label values).


Sorry Mark, I was in no way saying that the brew time was too long. I was merely suggesting that with a longer brew you will naturally extract more from the coffee until you reach a pint where you can no longer extract, as you say this could be due to roast level or bean density or fullness of the water. With low TDS water you are right that it's unlikely that water saturation will hold you back.

In your scenario of a long immersion brew time, there will come a point where an equilibrium will be reached between the coffee and the water. I don't really see that point changing much, maybe the time taken to get there would be shorter with a more extracty water. I still think the end point will be pretty much the same if you measure with a refrac.

Maxwells paper discusses relative binding power. Mg is higher than Ca. Does this mean that it can extract more given long enough or does it mean that it can extract more in a shorter time frame. As I say I've seen no evidence to back either outcome up, just speculation.

I've been playing more with pH as well recently and I think that has a massive pact on the final beverage. There is your starting pH, the brew pH and the final pH. A difference at any point can change the final brew. The correct starting pH and amount of buffer goes along way to making a great tasting drink. Ca and Mg will enhance it, give it interest, body and creaminess. I also wonder about how much TDS tells us about the taste. Who says that everything that makes up the taste if a brew is actually dissolved. If a cup of coffee were like a pot of gravy then maybe flavour and body also comes from oils, fats at particulates that are not actually dissolved in there. Are we even measuring the extraction correctly? Is total extractions dissolved + undissolved compounds from the coffee.

It's clear in need sleep


----------



## risky

@Xpenno as a stop gap would the five senses recipe yield better water than Volvic?


----------



## CoffeeChris

Has anyone tried these recipes with espresso machines?


----------



## Xpenno

risky said:


> @Xpenno as a stop gap would the five senses recipe yield better water than Volvic?


No


----------



## MWJB

Xpenno said:


> I also wonder about how much TDS tells us about the taste. Who says that everything that makes up the taste if a brew is actually dissolved. If a cup of coffee were like a pot of gravy then maybe flavour and body also comes from oils, fats at particulates that are not actually dissolved in there. Are we even measuring the extraction correctly? Is total extractions dissolved + undissolved compounds from the coffee.
> 
> It's clear in need sleep


Hi Spence, fats & particulates are part & parcel of unfiltered coffee beverage and it would be bizarre to suggest they have no bearing on the cup, but if they were essential for what is recognisably 'coffee' then paper filtered brews & siphons wouldn't be making 'coffee'.  There are varying studies about how much lipids make it through a paper filter, it's typically around 50ppm.

Undissolved solids are generally bittering, the fats can be pithy but also pretty flavourless, like saliva? Neither are typically contributing to flavour attributes, both present pretty generic flavours, fats are more relevant to mouthfeel.

Other than identifying a broad strength preference range for a given method, coffee %TDS in itself tells us little about 'flavour' specifically (neither coffee %TDS, nor water composition is a tool for steering your Yirgacheffe to taste like a chocolatey Bolivian), it's primarily just a stepping stone to assessing how good a job we have made of the processes leading up to the cup (EY). It does that very well.


----------



## robashton

MWJB said:


> assessing how good a job we have made of the processes leading up to the cup (EY). It does that very well.


Defo given the same 'workflow' and 'processes' it's a good mark of consistency - but as you've said previously, a 21% EY immersion !== 21% Pourover. With this water malarkey it's a similar sort of story no doubt - I've noticed that with better water I started aiming slightly lower on overall EY and higher on TDS because it was a lot more palatable at higher strengths. (Not enough data to really draw a chart of that yet though).


----------



## 4085

so, without reading this entire thread, what is considered the best readily available bottled water to use for brewed? can you say as a rule of thumb, if you are happy with the taste of your water, then it ought to eb fine when brewed or is that too simple?


----------



## Phil104

dfk41 said:


> so, without reading this entire thread, what is considered the best readily available bottled water to use for brewed? can you say as a rule of thumb, if you are happy with the taste of your water, then it ought to eb fine when brewed or is that too simple?


Waitrose Essential for brewed, the last time I looked.

Presumably your last point is simple in that at then end of the day, if you like the taste of your water, having experimented with others, then stick with what you like.

Some people are clearly much more taste sensitive than others. I'm not smell or taste sensitive. I would like to take part in a blind tasting of different waters - to see if I could identify any differences.


----------



## MWJB

Volvic.

The taste of your water alone isn't a good guide, tasty water doesn't = tasty coffee.


----------



## 4085

I see, I will go and buy some Volvic because Waitress is miles away! Then make a couple of brews and see if my extra insensitive taste buds can detect!


----------



## Phil104

Will be interested in your experiments - and, damn that autocorrect, I'm sorry to hear that the waitress is so far away - there is a telephone service that you can use to get someone round.


----------



## 4085

Phil104 said:


> Will be interested in your experiments - and, damn that autocorrect, I'm sorry to hear that the waitress is so far away - there is a telephone service that you can use to get someone round.


Friday is not a good day for phone contact because round here the perm and set brigade all get a day release so they are always busy...maybe monday when the dusky Phillipinos girls are working


----------



## Phil104

dfk41 said:


> Friday is not a good day for phone contact because round here the perm and set brigade all get a day release so they are always busy...maybe monday when the dusky Phillipinos girls are working


Ah, can't beat the thought of a pick-me-up to look forward to at the start of another week. I didn't realise that there are such regional variations over these essential services.


----------



## hotmetal

Right. Having enjoyed chemistry at school back in the 80s I've tried to follow this thread but have ultimately decided it's beyond my limits of understanding and practicality. However I respect the research and effort that has been put into this and have listened to the advice. I decided to go for what I hope will be the best 'bang per buck' and replace my easily obtainable Ashbeck with a 50/50 Waitrose Essential Stretton water and Volvic.

To this end, I have just been to Waitrose on my bike and struggled back with 20kg of the above mentioned water in my Bergen. It had better be noticeable!


----------



## urbanbumpkin

MWJB said:


> Volvic.


Not waitross essentials and Volvic 50/50 split.

Maybe that's 3 tests for DFK to try then.


----------



## MWJB

urbanbumpkin said:


> Not waitross essentials and Volvic 50/50 split.
> 
> Maybe that's 3 tests for DFK to try then.


I found Waitrose by itself to be great with a few coffees, but not with all, so if buying a single brand (sorry, assumed DFK wanted to grab a bottle/brand off the shelf & brew away), I'd go Volvic. Not tried the 50/50 Waitrose/Volvic, will get round to it though. Got a few other waters to wade through yet though


----------



## Step21

My preference so far is that a Waitrose Essentials/Volvic mix is better than either on their own. If i had to choose one i'd go for WE over Volvic. I tend to go more 70/30 WE/Volvic and sometimes add a touch of something else like Highland Spring to the mix. Sometimes go 60/50 or 50/50. I don't fuss about it too much.

If you don't live close to a Waitrose then Volvic is probably the best bet as it's available just about everywhere.


----------



## SZA

So, I have a clarifying question about water hardness units... When for instance Maxwell suggest a 2:1 relation between calcium (and magnesium) hardness and bicarbonate hardness, what units is he using then? 1) Hardness "as CaCO3", 2) ppm of the individual ions (Ca+, Mg+, and HCO3-), or 3) their molarity?

I've acquired this water hardness test based on titration, 1 drop = 1 dH (German standard, so = 17.85 ppm hardness "as CaCO3"), and wanted to just test the bottled waters available here, and whether the content list matches this simple test. So far it doesn't look to good!


----------



## GlennV

SZA said:


> So, I have a clarifying question about water hardness units... When for instance Maxwell suggest a 2:1 relation between calcium (and magnesium) hardness and bicarbonate hardness, what units is he using then? 1) Hardness "as CaCO3", 2) ppm of the individual ions (Ca+, Mg+, and HCO3-), or 3) their molarity?


For calcium and bicarbonate it's 2). For calcium vs magnesium it's not entirely clear what they intend, but my interpretation is that one mole of magnesium counts as one mole of calcium.


----------



## MWJB

1 part Strathmore to 2 parts Glaceau to 3 parts Volvic

vs...

2 parts Harrogate to 3 parts Glaceau

I can't really tell any difference, both sweet & juicy, no dryness or negatives.


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> 1 part Strathmore to 2 parts Glaceau to 3 parts Volvic
> 
> vs...
> 
> 2 parts Harrogate to 3 parts Glaceau
> 
> I can't really tell any difference, both sweet & juicy, no dryness or negatives.


Unfortunately, Glaceau & Harrogate are difficult to source in my locale or i'd give them a go.

For those with the "Water for Coffee" book is there anything in it for non chemists/boffins who would just like some simple information/tips on water that can improve the brew?


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> Unfortunately, Glaceau & Harrogate are difficult to source in my locale or i'd give them a go.
> 
> For those with the "Water for Coffee" book is there anything in it for non chemists/boffins who would just like some simple information/tips on water that can improve the brew?


Which waters are readily available to you?

Nothing jumps out from the book, other than assessing your water's GH & KH via drop kit tests. Mains/bottled water doesn't seem particularly relevant to targets suggested.


----------



## fluffles

Step21 said:


> Unfortunately, Glaceau & Harrogate are difficult to source in my locale or i'd give them a go.
> 
> For those with the "Water for Coffee" book is there anything in it for non chemists/boffins who would just like some simple information/tips on water that can improve the brew?


According to recommendations all bottled water have too high KH to GH. I see you're in Scotland so I guess you have very soft water - you could look at something like a BWT Bestmin to add minerals back in.


----------



## MWJB

fluffles said:


> According to recommendations all bottled water have too high KH to GH.


Too high KH to GH for what exactly?


----------



## fluffles

MWJB said:


> Too high KH to GH for what exactly?


For having the best chance at producing a tasty/balanced cup. I'm just summarising what I understood from the book, not stating a personal view


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> Which waters are readily available to you?
> 
> Nothing jumps out from the book, other than assessing your water's GH & KH via drop kit tests. Mains/bottled water doesn't seem particularly relevant to targets suggested.


Volvic, Highland Spring, Strathmore, Evian, Various supermarket own brands like Tesco Perthshire (really Highland Spring under another name), Morrisons Campsie water (no composition details) on label, Co-op spring water, Fairbourne?. Further afield there is Waitrose - i stock up every couple of months with Waitrose Essental.

There is a bit more choice in the 6x500ml multi packs. Which is where i got Glaceau some time time ago. Harrogate sometimes available in this format. Buxton. Glacier (Iceland?). Nestle.

I think i'll hold fire on the book by the sounds of it.


----------



## Step21

fluffles said:


> According to recommendations all bottled water have too high KH to GH. I see you're in Scotland so I guess you have very soft water - you could look at something like a BWT Bestmin to add minerals back in.


My tap water is crap for coffee. I now use a BWT Mg+ filter which makes better tea. Still nowhere near good enough for coffee though.


----------



## fluffles

Step21 said:


> My tap water is crap for coffee. I now use a BWT Mg+ filter which makes better tea. Still nowhere near good enough for coffee though.


Is that an inline filter on your water supply or do you mean the jug?


----------



## risky

MWJB said:


> 1 part Strathmore to 2 parts Glaceau to 3 parts Volvic
> 
> vs...
> 
> 2 parts Harrogate to 3 parts Glaceau
> 
> I can't really tell any difference, both sweet & juicy, no dryness or negatives.


Is Glaceau available in big bottles anywhere?


----------



## MWJB

I don't think so, I just get the 12 packs of 5/600ml(?)


----------



## MWJB

fluffles said:


> For having the best chance at producing a tasty/balanced cup. I'm just summarising what I understood from the book, not stating a personal view


Sure, but tasty coffee is certainly possible with bottled/mains/mixed bottled water. "Ideal" water as per the books target is probably great, but without making it, it doesn't seem to be accessible. It also doesn't seem to occur naturally so it is obviously not true that tasty coffee has never existed without it.


----------



## fluffles

MWJB said:


> Sure, but tasty coffee is certainly possible with bottled/mains/mixed bottled water. "Ideal" water as per the books target is probably great, but without making it, it doesn't seem to be accessible. It also doesn't seem to occur naturally so it is obviously not true that tasty coffee has never existed without it.


I do agree with you - bottled water is the most accessible way of making tasty coffee but there is a limit on its effectiveness. I think sometimes people are looking for some magic bottled water or mixing formula that I don't think exists.

Whether or not you can produce close to this notionally "ideal" water with an in-line filter will much depend on the source water and of course it's important to choose the correct type of filter. I get a GH of 7 and KH of 3 which generally speaking makes a much better cup than the bottled I used to use.


----------



## MWJB

fluffles said:


> I get a GH of 7 and KH of 3 which generally speaking makes a much better cup than the bottled I used to use.


Sorry, what units are these, they don't seem in line with anything in the ideal chart.

There aren't many good bottled waters if used on their own, there are loads of good bottled water mixes, not magic, but good.

If you can't make reasonably tasty coffee with Volvic, there's something else wrong.


----------



## Xpenno

I would guess he's talking about degrees German hardness. Multiply by 17.8 to get to Mg/L


----------



## fluffles

MWJB said:


> Sorry, what units are these, they don't seem in line with anything in the ideal chart.
> 
> There aren't many good bottled waters if used on their own, there are loads of good bottled water mixes, not magic, but good.
> 
> If you can't make reasonably tasty coffee with Volvic, there's something else wrong.


Units are degrees of German hardness, where 1 is equivalent to 17.8mg/l


----------



## fluffles

To reiterate, I'm not saying you can't make tasty coffee with volvic. I was just answering a specific question from someone who has already gone as far as mixing bottled water


----------



## Xpenno

fluffles said:


> To reiterate, I'm not saying you can't make tasty coffee with volvic. I was just answering a specific question from someone who has already gone as far as mixing bottled water


I wish I had your tap water. Sounds bang on the money


----------



## risky

I think this is the hardest thing for a lot of people. It would be great if there was a magic bottled water that ticked all the boxes, however as has been surmised before, it would almost certainly taste vile by itself, which is why it doesn't seem to exist.


----------



## Xpenno

risky said:


> I think this is the hardest thing for a lot of people. It would be great if there was a magic bottled water that ticked all the boxes, however as has been surmised before, it would almost certainly taste vile by itself, which is why it doesn't seem to exist.


It wouldn't taste vile, not sure where you got that from. It would taste like water. The reason it doesn't exist in a bottle is that it doesn't really occur in nature at these specs. It's probably only come about due to the serious filtering we do to ensure our coffee machinery survives.

Add to this the fact that the process would be costly to replicate on a grand scale just to bottle up for coffee peeps, most of whom already moan because Volvic's too expensive.


----------



## risky

Xpenno said:


> It wouldn't taste vile, not sure where you got that from. It would taste like water.


Apologies, I was obviously misinformed. Having seen a bottle of magic water, it didn't look very tasty I must admit.


----------



## Xpenno

risky said:


> Apologies, I was obviously misinformed. Having seen a bottle of magic water, it didn't look very tasty I must admit.


Magic water?


----------



## risky

Xpenno said:


> Magic water?


As in water made by you.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

? It looks like water.


----------



## Xpenno

risky said:


> As in water made by you.


OH, ok, my "magic water" looks like water to me. Where did you get it from? Maybe someone's selling knockoffs?


----------



## Xpenno

#magicwatergate


----------



## risky

Xpenno said:


> OH, ok, my "magic water" looks like water to me. Where did you get it from? Maybe someone's selling knockoffs?


The stuff you sent Rob a while back was really cloudy? I remember myself, Rob and Jeebsy all commenting 'I wouldn't want to drink that'

Was this possibly pre-sodastream method?


----------



## fluffles

Xpenno said:


> I wish I had your tap water. Sounds bang on the money


It comes out of the tap measuring 12 and 7 and although that seems like a good ratio it does not make good coffee!


----------



## garydyke1

None of the water Ive had from Spence has been cloudy , the water for beer however is a different matter...... #friggingbicarbn'sh1t


----------



## risky

Was this possibly 'roastery water'? In fact I'm sure it was, because we cut it 50/50 with Waitrose. Should the roastery stuff be cloudy?

Apologies for causing #magicwatergate


----------



## Xpenno

risky said:


> The stuff you sent Rob a while back was really cloudy? I remember myself, Rob and Jeebsy all commenting 'I wouldn't want to drink that'
> 
> Was this possibly pre-sodastream method?


Sorry I didn't send any water to Rob. Did you still drink it?

The pre-sodastream method could not go cloudy as everything was totally soluble. The new method could go cloudy when heated but it should not go very cloud if made correctly.


----------



## MWJB

risky said:


> I think this is the hardest thing for a lot of people. It would be great if there was a magic bottled water that ticked all the boxes, however as has been surmised before, it would almost certainly taste vile by itself, which is why it doesn't seem to exist.


By mixing 2 or 3 bottles of water, available off the shelf, there are more permutations of "tasty" brew water than it is reasonable to explore. The trickiest thing is finding all the ones you might need in a 'one stop' shop.


----------



## risky

Xpenno said:


> Sorry I didn't send any water to Rob. Did you still drink it?
> 
> The pre-sodastream method could not go cloudy as everything was totally soluble. The new method could go cloudy when heated but it should not go very cloud if made correctly.


See previous, sorry, it was roastery water. Still not sure if it should have been cloudy?


----------



## Xpenno

garydyke1 said:


> None of the water Ive had from Spence has been cloudy , the water for beer however is a different matter...... #friggingbicarbn'sh1t


That beer water was super cloudy, looking forward to tasting the results


----------



## Xpenno

fluffles said:


> It comes out of the tap measuring 12 and 7 and although that seems like a good ratio it does not make good coffee!


Nah, TDS is probably too high for it to work properly, what are your chloride and sulphate levels?


----------



## fluffles

Xpenno said:


> Nah, TDS is probably too high for it to work properly, what are your chloride and sulphate levels?


43 and 74 mg/l respectively


----------



## garydyke1

Xpenno said:


> That beer water was super cloudy, looking forward to tasting the results


By all accounts it's a killer


----------



## robashton

The water I used to cut with the waitrose was roastery water - I think your memory haziness is adding extra cloudiness to the water - I'd describe it as having been "slightly misty"









the the magic water I'm making at the moment isn't cloudy in the slightest (although the concentrated calcium water obviously is)


----------



## risky

So in summary then, genuine Xpenno Labs Magic Water™ still tastes nice enough to drink and the #magicwatergate concludes.


----------



## Xpenno

fluffles said:


> 43 and 74 mg/l respectively


That's probably why it doesn't taste good then. Maxwell's book doesn't really talk about these ions but in my tests they make a big difference to taste.


----------



## Xpenno

risky said:


> So in summary then, genuine Xpenno Labs Magic Water™ still tastes nice enough to drink and the #magicwatergate concludes.


My water is more pure than most mineral/tap waters. As long as you use reagent grade chemicals, ensure all your solutions are fresh then it shouldn't be a problem. Taste-wise it's still very low TDS so won't have the mouthfeel of Evian but should be nicer than say Volvic. I don't drink it personally, but I wouldn't have any issue drinking it fresh. I wouldn't drink tap water that had been stored at room temp for more than a day or 2 and the same applies here.


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> Volvic, Highland Spring, Strathmore, Evian, Various supermarket own brands like Tesco Perthshire (really Highland Spring under another name), Morrisons Campsie water (no composition details) on label, Co-op spring water, Fairbourne?. Further afield there is Waitrose - i stock up every couple of months with Waitrose Essental.
> 
> There is a bit more choice in the 6x500ml multi packs. Which is where i got Glaceau some time time ago. Harrogate sometimes available in this format. Buxton. Glacier (Iceland?). Nestle.
> 
> I think i'll hold fire on the book by the sounds of it.


I'll wager the Campsie fells water is soft, but sure, looks like Glaceau & Waitrose Essential are best bets for taming the harder waters (Strathmore, Highland Spring, Buxton, Harrogate). Buxton:Glaceau looks like it might have potential at ~2:5, or 4:9 mix.


----------



## garydyke1

Roastery water isn't cloudy, lol . Aerated maybe by Fed Ex playing football with it


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> I'll wager the Campsie fells water is soft, but sure, looks like Glaceau & Waitrose Essential are best bets for taming the harder waters (Strathmore, Highland Spring, Buxton, Harrogate). Buxton:Glaceau looks like it might have potential at ~2:5, or 4:9 mix.


I forgot to add Ashbeck & Deeside (incredibly soft) to my list. I once tried Deeside for coffee - never again!

Has anyone experimented with filtering bottled water? The BWT Mg+ jug filter i use converts Ca to Mg (Xpenno uses this in his final step to create "magic" water). What would it do to the alkalinity & TDS?

e.g Highland Spring nominally has a high Ca to Mg ratio 10.1:40.5 mg/l but Bicarb of 150. Would passing this through a Mg+ filter not give a Mg rich water and possibly lower the alkalinity to a more favourable figure?

Worth a shot?


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> I forgot to add Ashbeck & Deeside (incredibly soft) to my list. I once tried Deeside for coffee - never again!


Deeside works OK with 3 parts to 1 part Strathmore.


----------



## GlennV

@fluffles' tap water seems pretty standard for hard water. The difference of around 60ppm, as CaCO3, between GH and KH seems very common - I've no idea why this should be. Cambridge water is significantly harder, but still has the the same difference - 420ppm GH, 360ppm KH! I've just checked a couple of other locations around the country - same difference again. This difference stays the same when you filter the water - as every calcium ion exchanged for a couple of hydrogen ions reduces the hardness (GH) and the alkalinity (KH) by the same amount (although only when everything is expressed "as CaCO3"). Boiling the water so that some of the hardness scales out also doesn't change the difference between GH and KH. So, most people in hard water areas can just filter their water down to the approximately 120 GH/60 KH that we all seem to like (it's the makeup of @Xpenno's hybrid Calcium Carbonate / Magnesium Sulphate water from last week, what @MWJB's aiming for, including his recipe #2 from last week, it's what I normally use, it's what another_jim recommends in his insanely long water faq, what @fluffles uses and I'm sure there are others in this thread that I've forgotten about for now).


----------



## sjenner

Water must be among the most significant requirements for a cup of coffee... Along with some coffee (of course)...

We spend an absolute fortune on the equipment... EK whathaveyous and so on, and yet it always seems that water is the afterthought... as evidenced by this forum... Most threads being about everything but water.

I don't believe that the cost of developing an accurate system, based on RO water and its associated filters is an overly large investment by comparison...

When it is done though, it is done and there is only the very occasional flurry of activity required for filter changes... About £60 per year.

I have had a water softener and RO system in the house for twenty-five years... To me... Water is that important. Of course the other side of this, is that not only does the coffee equipment work better, but the loo and the washing machine and the kettle and the bath all work flawlessly and don't leave horrible scale marks everywhere.


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> I'll wager the Campsie fells water is soft, but sure, looks like Glaceau & Waitrose Essential are best bets for taming the harder waters (Strathmore, Highland Spring, Buxton, Harrogate). Buxton:Glaceau looks like it might have potential at ~2:5, or 4:9 mix.


I'm just beginning to sense the possibilities with Glaceau. At approx 10:1 GH:KH it can markedly reduce the alkalinity of some of the harder waters while slightly reducing the hardness. I think Highland Spring/Glaceau might be good at 50/50? Don't have any Buxton at the moment to try your suggestion.

Worth starting a new thread on off the shelf bottled Water combo's to save sifting through this one?


----------



## MWJB

Good plan, i'll start a new thread...


----------



## robashton

garydyke1 said:


> Roastery water isn't cloudy, lol . Aerated maybe by Fed Ex playing football with it


I think people's memories are fuzzy, just like the water was - yes, it was all shook (uh uh hah) /elvis impression


----------



## MWJB

http://waterforcoffeebook.com/pages/corrections-and-amendments


----------



## MWJB

MWJB said:


> http://waterforcoffeebook.com/pages/corrections-and-amendments


Plugging values into my spreadsheet, following the logic that the SCAA targets are as CaCO3, you end up with a water close to Tesco Clearview, not a million miles away from Waitrose Essential. If, however you assume that the SCAA targets as mg/l as stated on a bottle of water, there is unlikely such a water occurring naturally.


----------



## robashton

I've started blending my filtered mg water with the unfiltered ca water for brewed, think it tastes richer - organising a blind cupping on Friday to work out ratios and strengths and such.

probs got a lot to do with me still using my local mostly empty mystery tapwater, I really need to sort out an RO source


----------



## Step21

I'm a bit confused about water hardness...

My understanding is that in the makeup of our brew water we have General Hardness (GH) which is composed of Mg & Ca ions from chlorides/suplhates and Carbonate Hardness/alkalinity (KH) composed of Mg & Ca dissolved from carbonates/bicarbonates by CO2 (naturally over time or by sodastream) - i suspect it's not that simple but KH seems to be synonymous with temporary hardness? There seems to be a range of GH:KH ratios that are good for making coffee from 2:1 to 4:1

When we make the brew the boiling process can precipitate temporary hardness out of solution causing scale deposits (if the water is sufficiently hard). Is there a particular point where this begins to happen? and how can it not affect the GH:KH ratio when the heated water hits the coffee? Has the KH value not decreased due to boiling?

In @Xpenno 's water, where does the GH come from? The hardness is created by adding Calcium Carbonate to RO water with CO2 to dissolve it. Is this not all temporary hardness or KH? Clearly not. I'm assuming this water is sufficiently "soft" not to precipitate.

Told you i was confused!


----------



## Xpenno

General Hardness is a measurement of Calcium and Magnesium Ions (and technically Sodium and Potassium however as their binding energy is so low they are usually ignored). It does not measure Chlorides or Sulphates.

Temporary Hardness is Calcium and Magnesium that is associated with carbonate/bicarbonate ions. It is called temporary hardness as at figures over approximately 100ppm (as CaCO3) the excess could come out of solution, this can cause scale in high concentrations. The amount that comes out of solution depends on temperature, ratio of Ca/Mg ions and KH.

Permanent Hardness is Calcium and Magnesium that is associated with chlorides and sulphates. Hardness supplied by Ca/Mg that is associated with Chlorides and Sulphates will not come out of solution when heated, hence permanent.

Carbonate Hardness (KH) is the concentration of carbonate+bicarbonate ions in the solution. This is only an estimate as it changes, especially when temperature is increased. As I mentioned in my post on how to create my water I mention that CO2 naturally dissolves in water. At standard atmospheric pressure only a small amount dissolves. In an underground cave the pressure is increase significantly hence more CO2 is dissolved into the water. In most areas Calcium Carbonate is very common and with the increased acidity from the CO2 it get's dissolved into the water giving it temporary hardness. There are almost certainly chlorides and sulphate in there as well. The pressure and amount of each compounds that existing in the ground surrounding the well/spring will determine the final Hardness, TDS, pH etc...


----------



## GlennV

Good question. There are many explanations of this around, unfortunately not all are accurate and many of them oversimplify things.

Natural waters contain positively charged cations and negatively charged anions. The cations are broken down into two groups, the multivalent ones (ones with a charge greater than one) and the monovalent ones (primarily sodium, potassium and hydrogen ions). General hardness (GH) is defined as the concentration of the multivalent ones, which are predominantly calcium and magnesium ions but also include strontium, copper, etc ions. These could have entered solution as chlorides, sulfates, carbonates etc, but that doesn't matter. Once dissolved they just exist as cations.

The anions are predominantly chloride, sulphate, carbonate, bicarbonate and hydroxide ions. Alkalinity, or carbonate hardness (KH) is defined in terms of the buffering ability of the water, that is the ability to resist pH change when an acid is added. It equals the sum of the carbonate, bicarbonate and hydroxide concentrations minus the hydrogen ion concentration. In near to neutral water it is very nearly equal to the bicarbonate concentration, as the other concentrations will be small.

Temporary hardness is defined in terms of the potential amount of carbonates that might precipitate on boiling. In practice it can be calculated as the smallest of the GH and KH, as both the calcium or magnesium cations and the carbonate/bicarbonate anions are required. This only works when GH and KH are expressed in traditional units, such as ppm as CaCO3, dH or mmeq/l (which are all proportional to each other). It does not work if the actual mg/l of the ions themselves is used (as in the "water for coffee" book, or if you use the numbers on bottle labels).

When you boil water, the GH and KH both reduce by precisely the same amount (when expressed in traditional units) - so the ratio does indeed change. When you filter water through a brita filter (or claris, bwt, 3M scalegard, or any other system using weak acid cation exchange) then the GH and KH will also reduce by the precisely the same amount (if your test kit tells you otherwise then it's the measurement that's at fault). So, for example, cambridge water is typically of the order 360 GH/300 KH (that's off the top of my head, I can't remember what the GH is, but I do know the difference is 60). After boiling for a while this reduces to 120/60. Filtering though an undersink brita filter (no bypass) also reduces it to 120/60, with bypass it might be 150/90 etc.

If you dissolve calcium or magnesium carbonate in carbonated RO water , then the result has equal GH and KH by definition (with both equal to the temporary hardness).

The jury's out on ratios, I think. Traditional thinking was that 2:1 GH to KH was good (when expressed in traditional units) - and this is typically what you get when you filter and/or boil hard water, as I illustrated above. The "water for coffee" book recommends much higher ratios. Some of us are getting good results with ratios up to around 3:1, or even 4:1 ; higher than traditional but not quite as high as the book recommends.


----------



## Step21

Thanks chaps. No wonder the layman gets confused. Clearly i was confusing permanent and general hardness and not really understanding temporary hardness.

@GlennV that is a brilliant post! It makes so much sense (after i've re-read it several times!)

Say for the sake of argument that i had created a bottled water mix that measured 3:1 GH:KH say 180:60 as measured by CaCO3, can it be predicted how much will scale off and what the actual ratio will be of the water that hits the coffee?


----------



## Xpenno

Step21 said:


> Thanks chaps. No wonder the layman gets confused. Clearly i was confusing permanent and general hardness and not really understanding temporary hardness.
> 
> @GlennV that is a brilliant post! It makes so much sense (after i've re-read it several times!)
> 
> Say for the sake of argument that i had created a bottled water mix that measured 3:1 GH:KH say 180:60 as measured by CaCO3, can it be predicted how much will scale off and what the actual ratio will be of the water that hits the coffee?


Not without understanding temporary vs permanent hardness, even then it would be an estimate.


----------



## GlennV

Step21 said:


> Say for the sake of argument that i had created a bottled water mix that measured 3:1 GH:KH say 180:60 as measured by CaCO3, can it be predicted how much will scale off and what the actual ratio will be of the water that hits the coffee?


Yes, there is indeed an elephant in the room! Unfortunately, the answer depends on how long you heat the water for. If it's for a long time then the problem has been well studied in the context of industrial cooling water, and home-barista's another_jim's Insanely Long Water FAQ is still probably the best reference for the interpretation of those results for coffee. He defines the following semi-empirically derived index (based on the Langelier and Puckorius scaling indices)

LI* = 13.12*log10(T+273)+log10(GH)+2.465*log10(KH)-log10(max(GH,KH))/10-39.61

you plug in T in deg C, and GH and KH expressed "as CaCO3", and LI*>0 predicts scaling. This predicts that your example water should scale down to 158/38 eventually if left to boil for long enough (producing 22mg/l of scale if the temporary hardness were due to calcium carbonate). How long is "long enough" though, and whether this index (which relies on a purely empirical relationship between pH and KH) even applies in the kitchen is, I believe, unknown.


----------



## Step21

So, in general terms the GH:KH ratio is widening when water is heated?

Presumably water ratios above 2:1 (say 120:60) are not going to be good for machines due to scaling.

If i wanted to get a home estimate for GH and KH rather than relying on bottle labels would the Salifert Ca, Mg and KH/alkalinity kits be suffice to calculate these with a better degree of accuracy than labels?


----------



## GlennV

Step21 said:


> So, in general terms the GH:KH ratio is widening when water is heated?
> 
> Presumably water ratios above 2:1 (say 120:60) are not going to be good for machines due to scaling.
> 
> If i wanted to get a home estimate for GH and KH rather than relying on bottle labels would the Salifert Ca, Mg and KH/alkalinity kits be suffice to calculate these with a better degree of accuracy than labels?


High ratios are not necessarily bad for scaling - eg 180:30 shouldn't scale. I certainly wouldn't put it in my espresso machine though, if that's you're thinking, far too much uncertainty about the effects of high chloride or sulfate levels for my liking.

The salifert KH test is accurate and reliable, much better than drop tests I've tried. The magnesium test only works in sea water though, and has a very coarse resolution. I would recommend the API GH test.


----------



## Viernes

*nevermind


----------



## boxerdog

Not scientific at all but I drink mostly distilled water and have a small appliance that makes it by the gallon. I wanted to use it in my new Sage machine but customer service says not to do this as I will damage the machine. Real shame as tea and coffee taste better when using pure water. I shall simply use half distilled and half Brita filtered.


----------



## garydyke1

boxerdog said:


> Not scientific at all but I drink mostly distilled water and have a small appliance that makes it by the gallon. I wanted to use it in my new Sage machine but customer service says not to do this as I will damage the machine. Real shame as tea and coffee taste better when using pure water. I shall simply use half distilled and half Brita filtered.


Tea and coffee both taste better with minerals . Each to their own


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## boxerdog

garydyke1 said:



> Tea and coffee both taste better with minerals . Each to their own


Hi Gary, yes I agree, each to their own. I just seem drawn to purer food and drink. I make most things from scratch with the purest ingredients I can find. I make yogurts etc from organic milk (used to buy raw milk but its getting rarer and the prices make it more like a treat) I make my own bread from wheat flour that I mill at home in my little granite stone mill. I just poured a cup of clear golden tea from distilled water, no scum on top, totally clear. For me that is part of the enjoyment. I've never had an espresso shot from distilled water but I can't wait to try!


----------



## Xpenno

boxerdog said:


> Not scientific at all but I drink mostly distilled water and have a small appliance that makes it by the gallon. I wanted to use it in my new Sage machine but customer service says not to do this as I will damage the machine. Real shame as tea and coffee taste better when using pure water. I shall simply use half distilled and half Brita filtered.


Distilled water will leech the metals from your espresso machine and may eventually result in it failing. I would advise against using it for espresso but as you say, each to their own.


----------



## boxerdog

Xpenno said:


> Distilled water will leech the metals from your espresso machine and may eventually result in it failing. I would advise against using it for espresso but as you say, each to their own.


Thanks for that, I was thinking I wouldn't want to use distilled in a plastic water chamber either so I think what I am going to do is half distilled half tap to give more of a softer water. Before I used distilled in my house I used to get things like the kettle so furred up. Thats not the end of the world on a £20 kettle but I don't fancy the same thing happening on an expensive coffee machine. I'm not going to go fully tap water however as I don't fancy that scummy residue that I get on drinks here. I notice people use bottled but that would be expensive for me and I already have the distiller.


----------



## Xpenno

boxerdog said:


> Thanks for that, I was thinking I wouldn't want to use distilled in a plastic water chamber either so I think what I am going to do is half distilled half tap to give more of a softer water. Before I used distilled in my house I used to get things like the kettle so furred up. Thats not the end of the world on a £20 kettle but I don't fancy the same thing happening on an expensive coffee machine. I'm not going to go fully tap water however as I don't fancy that scummy residue that I get on drinks here. I notice people use bottled but that would be expensive for me and I already have the distiller.


There are some good posts here on water and why people use certain waters. If you're interested then it might be worth a search.


----------



## boxerdog

Xpenno said:


> There are some good posts here on water and why people use certain waters. If you're interested then it might be worth a search.


Thank you yes there are a lot! Working my way through them all as it is very interesting


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## bronc

Should I purchase a Salifert KH test or a JBL GH/KH one? From what I gather the Salifert one is more accurate but measures only carbonate hardness while the GH/KH is less accurate but measures both general and carbonate hardness. I'm mostly interested in the carbonate hardness as I already know the Ca/Mg values from my local authority but am getting a bit lost in all the terminology.. Do I need the GH test as well?


----------



## bronc

GlennV said:


> I've just been reading the latest BWT patent (below), which I presume describes the underlying technology they are using here. They describe replacing some of the calcium ions with magnesium ions, using a strongly acidic ion exchange resin, and a proportion of the remainder with hydrogen ions by means the usual weak acid system. The advertising literature suggests they're shooting for 30mg/L Mg2+, which is 125ppm as CaCO3 and is consistent with what I measured. This all suggests that it might be easier to use magnesium carbonate in the first place (which is more soluble) and skip the filtering step, the precise effects of which are likely to change over the life of the cartridge (my measurements were on a new cartridge).
> 
> This is fun!
> 
> www.google.com/patents/US20150060366


I just received my Soda Stream this morning with a bag of magnesium carbonate alongside. Just waiting for the calcium carbonate to arrive tomorrow and I'll start having some fun! Do we know how much calcium ions are replaced with magnesium ions (in some layman units)? I understand I should be adding 30mg/L magnesium carbonate to begin with but shouldn't I decrease the amount of calcium carbonate I'm adding so that the water doesn't become too hard?

@Xpenno I'm trying to adjust your spreadsheet to suit my needs (using very soft tap water instead of RO). Is it as simple as calculating the resulting hardness as a weighted average of the solution and my tap water? I also don't understand what the 1.35340284 & 1.4533333 coefficients stand for. Help?


----------



## Xpenno

@bronc send me a pic of what you're looking at. If your 10mg/L of Ca then that's 25ppm as CaCO3. Just add that on


----------



## bronc

Xpenno said:


> @bronc send me a pic of what you're looking at. If your 10mg/L of Ca then that's 25ppm as CaCO3. Just add that on


----------



## Xpenno

bronc said:


>


They are multipliers I measured through experiment to convert the measured tds of your CaCO3 solution to hardness. That field will not help for calculating anything else.

If you are already at 25ppm GH and your target is say 100ppm then set your desired hardness in my sheet to 75ppm.


----------



## bronc

Xpenno said:


> They are multipliers I measured through experiment to convert the measured tds of your CaCO3 solution to hardness. That field will not help for calculating anything else.
> 
> If you are already at 25ppm GH and your target is say 100ppm then set your desired hardness in my sheet to 75ppm.


Ahh.. that makes sense. I was Googling various versions (rounded, multiplied, fewer/more characters) of the said coefficients in an attempt to discover what they mean







Thanks!


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## the_partisan

Matt Perger has this recipe:



> All you need is bicarb soda (baking soda, NOT baking powder), epsom salt (magnesium sulfate), and distilled water. All super cheap and readily available.
> 
> Add 6.8g bicarb, and 25g epsom to 500g distilled water. This is your concentrate.
> 
> Shake the concentrate and make sure it's all dissolved.
> 
> Add 2.5g of the concentrate to 500g distilled water. This is your brewing water.
> 
> Boil and brew!


I wonder if this recipe will make significantly better coffee, than my filtered(BWT pitcher) hard tap water? Has anyone experimented with it?


----------



## julesjules

the_partisan said:


> Matt Perger has this recipe:
> 
> I wonder if this recipe will make significantly better coffee, than my filtered(BWT pitcher) hard tap water? Has anyone experimented with it?


Been wanting to try this, but I've been struggling to find cheap drinkable distilled water. Plenty available in car sections of supermarkets or Halfords in smaller volumes (1L or so), but I'm not sure if these are safe for human consumption!


----------



## StusBrews

julesjules said:


> Been wanting to try this, but I've been struggling to find cheap drinkable distilled water. Plenty available in car sections of supermarkets or Halfords in smaller volumes (1L or so), but I'm not sure if these are safe for human consumption!


If you have an acquatics shop near by, you can pickup RO water super cheap. I can get 10L for £1.20.

The RO water I get comes in at about 25 TDS and I've been using it to make Xpenno's water with amazing results.


----------



## DevonStan

OK fellas. Cards on table. I'm not a scientist. Clearly some of you either are...or are very nearly there 

I confess I glanced only at some the preceding *43 !* pages. I further confess a lot of it (OK, most of it) went over my head.

Therefore my query is, in essence, about as simple as they come.

I live in South Devon on the south east edge of Dartmoor. The South West Water harndess chart suggests that my water is classed as "Soft".

Calcium 0-20

Calcium Carbonate 0 - 50

English Clark degrees 0 - 3.5

French degrees 0 - 5

General German degrees 0 - 2.8

There's no scale anywhere around the house - except very mild coating in the 10 year old kettle - it's a fine coating stuck to the inner surfaces of the kettle and isn't thick enough to flake off etc. It's almost more a case of discolouration rather than actual scale.

For the past six years I've used Aqua Select (Brita type) cartridges in a water jug to fill up my Oscar and it's been fine and exhibits no scaling.

I've always added a sprinkling of Bicarbonate of Soda to the water tank following advice from somewhere or other.

Now I've changed the machine I'm keen to continue to keep it in good order and am currently using the same regime.

Someone tell me if I'm doing what might be considered "the right thing" in adding Bicarb. Soda to each tankful. and what, actually, is it doing? Certainly it has kept both my two machines in excellent condition - neither have given a scrap of trouble and when I clean and flush them there's not a hint of scale to be seen.

And lastly, the alternative to tank fill is to (a) fit an inline filter into a mains cold water fed set up. Or (b) connect to the mains cold water and not fit a filter on the basis that the water's soft and it's not necessary.

I can see inline filters by Brita, BWT and 3M...plus others I've not looked closely at.

Observations will be very welcome and appreciated.

Ta.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

I think "Special Water" will trump filtered water for taste. I don't know the science but mineral content improves the taste significantly, I think the magnesium is quite key. The water I had from Xpenno made a phenomenal difference. Please let one of the boffins step in with the facts. Waitrose/ volvic mix isnt a bad trade off.


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## Step21

Adding sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) to your water makes it more alkaline and will affect the taste. Whether that is good/bad is personal preference. It does not raise temporary hardness (the bit that precipitates off when you boil water and leaves behind scale).

Sounds like your water is soft. If you like what you currently have then there is no reason to change it, it 's not going to damage your equipment. You say that you filter the water which is probably exchanging Calcium for sodium and so softening your original water even further.

It might be worth trying as an experiment using Volvic to make coffee in your machine and see whether the taste is noticeably different (better/worse) from your usual. Volvic is soft water with a useful (if not optimum) ratio of minerals that are important for making good coffee and will not damage machines.


----------



## DevonStan

Thanks Step21. Your reply's appreciated.

I'm reassured to know that the use of the filter jug and the Baking Soda isn't inadvisable in regard to the well being of the machine. Certainly, as mentioned, in six years the Oscar has remained as clean as a whistle.

Recommendation re. Volvic noted with thanks. As an aside, my Mrs. drinks bottled water all the time. But it's sparkling so that may render it out of the equation for comparison purposes. It's only the sparkling aspect that causes her to use it...the taste difference between that and our tap water doesn't have anything to do with her choice.

But, in connection with the above, I noted the specs of the two makes of sparkling water we happen to have here.

Lidl Saskia Sparkling

Sodium 12.8

Magnesium 3.0

Calcium 25.0

Chloride 30.8

Sulphate 45.9

Nitrate 0.5

Aldi Aqueo Sparkling

Calcium 38.0

Magnesium 12.0

Sodium 8.0

Pottassium 2.5

Chloride 12.0

Sulphate 14.0

Nitrate 5.0

Dry Residue a5t 180C 219

Ph @ Source 5.5

I don't have the Volvic specs to hand as we speak (and even if I did I'm fairly confident I wouldn't be able to draw any meaningful conclusions from them )









And so, I'm happy to be corrected, and bearing in mind your advice above. I have options as follows :-

(a) Carry on doing what I'm doing now. ie. filter the water for the machine in a jug.

(b) Use water straight from the tap unfiltered by the jug filter.

© Do nothing to the mains cold water and (by the sound of it) use it, unfiltered, straight into my new ECM HX machine via a plumbed in set up. i.e pressure reducing valve, check valve, isolating valve.

(d) Plumb the machine in as above, but add an inline filter cartridge from Brita or BTW or 3M, for example.

I gather the, apparent, advantage of an inline filter (and, perhaps to a lesser extent, using the jug filter) is the filter imparts a better taste having filtered out whatever it is that they filter out.

(I apologize for the slightly unscientific lingo).

To summarize...I'm still unsure which course of action might be most favourable.

Hopefully I'll get further pointers to assist.

Thanks again.


----------



## MWJB

Sparkling water does taste different to non-sparkling, dissolving CO2 into the water creates carbonic acid.


----------



## DevonStan

MWJB said:


> Sparkling water does taste different to non-sparkling, dissolving CO2 into the water creates carbonic acid.


TBH whilst I wasn't absolutely sure I guessed it might. We would, of course, use still....I just included the specs to see if they might offer any significant differences between them and, say, Volvic.

I will, undoubtedly, give the Volvic a try. It'll be an interesting experiment.

Presumably you can buy it most places?


----------



## MWJB

DevonStan said:


> I will, undoubtedly, give the Volvic a try. It'll be an interesting experiment.
> 
> Presumably you can buy it most places?


Sainsburys, Ocado/Waitrose, there was some talk about Tesco discontinuing the 6x1.5l packs (don't shop there, so can't confirm).


----------



## DevonStan

Ta.

Having tried, and failed, to read/understand all the previous contents of the thread I'm guessing that it was concluded that Volvic had advantages over other (cheaper?) options?

Just popped round to the local, small, Co-op. Even for a small store it has a lot of different makes and types. There's Fairbourne Springs 'still' in 5 litres for £1.19. They only had Volvic with a flavouring added so not appropriate.

Lidl's is 25 pence for 1.5 litres of Saskia Natural Mineral Water (whatever that is?). I detailed it's contents above.

I have to admit a couple of things spring to mind:

1. Simplistically, it seems a bit OTT to buy bottled water when I live in a very soft water area with our water, apparently, coming from moorland rivers, streams etc. (according to South West Water). Maybe the thread is more relevant to those in hard water areas?

2. It seems a dreadful waste to think of all the time, money, effort and energy expended in getting bottled water to my machine only for a tiny amount of it being drunk and the rest of it used for flushing/cleaning procedures and cup warming etc.

3. I wonder if the "taste" aspect might be substantially diluted insofar as I/we very rarely drink espresso....only cappuuccinos? We have yet to develop a maturity of taste to appreciate espresso. And we have tried.

However, all good food (and drink) for thought.


----------



## julesjules

StusBrews said:


> If you have an acquatics shop near by, you can pickup RO water super cheap. I can get 10L for £1.20.
> 
> The RO water I get comes in at about 25 TDS and I've been using it to make Xpenno's water with amazing results.


Thanks for the tip.

Does anyone have a link to said water recipe? My Google-fu has failed me..


----------



## Step21

Ideally you are looking for a PH of 7. The sparkling waters you detail look pretty acidic and the dry residue figure is over 200mg/l - i would avoid these in your machine.

Without more detail on the composition of your water (Calcium/Magnesium/Sodium/ Bicarbonate/ TDS ) it's difficult to know if it is any good for coffee. It might be good for your machine but the two don't necessarily go together.

Volvic has a PH of 7 , a TDS or dry residue of 130mg/l, Calcium 12, Magnesium 8, sodium 12, bicarbonates 74. I think most people that use bottled water in a machine on here use either Volvic or a mixture of Waitrose Essential + Volvic.

I don't know enough about inline filters to comment on that. In the end it's all about what taste you prefer rather than water specs.


----------



## DevonStan

Thanks, I only have the information that I mentioned in an earlier post (#427) which was....

Calcium 0-20

Calcium Carbonate 0 - 50

English Clark degrees 0 - 3.5

French degrees 0 - 5

General German degrees 0 - 2.8

I only noted the "sparkling" figures as I didn't have any "still" to hand. I can now see there's a difference in their specs between the two. Truthfully, I wasn't sure either way.

I can see the only way to exercise proper discernment is to make, and compare, espresso rather than milk based. Until I do that I think I'm up a gumtree.


----------



## Step21

Why are you up a gumtree?

If you do exactly as you have been doing then your new machine will not scale and you should enjoy the coffee. So no problem?

If you do decide to do a taste test comparison using Volvic and you prefer it then you've got decisions to make!

If you don't like espresso dilute it with some of the same boiled water (in this case either Volvic or tap to do the comparison). The most important thing to note is avoid experimenting with bottled waters that have a high "Dry residue or TDS" figure otherwise you may get scaling in the machine. So look for a number around 120mg/l or less. For brewed coffee this is less important as the only thing liable to scale is a kettle which is easy descaled.

The dilemma is that soft water often doesn't have sufficient minerals for optimal coffee extraction whereas hard water has an excess. Ideal water for coffee is very rare which is why filters, RO etc... are employed. But remember that 90+% of a cup of coffee is water (before any additives like milk) so good water is important. Milk is naturally sweet and will skew the original coffee flavour. It may skew it either favourably or not depending on your preferences. But there's no right and wrong here. It's all about what you enjoy. If it ain't broke don't fix it!


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## DevonStan

Cracking response there, Step21.

No, you're right....gumtree is overstating the case. It's more the case that I'm given to (attempting to) overthink things sometimes. Often failing to achieve the desired outcome...but it keeps me off the streets, mugging old ladies. (best put the obligatory smiley in....







).

You raise several important and relevant points that I shall reflect upon.

Just looked to see what the only bottled water that I have in the house shows....the Aldi sparkling..it says Dry Residue at 180C - 279 (we've established I wouldn't consider Aldi sparkling, but i thought I'd have a look anyway).

I rang a couple of local Marine/Tropical fish outlets who sell their (home produced) RO water for 10p a litre just to see if that was something to consider.

I shall certainly experiment with bottled as per your suggestion. But you've warned me, above, that not all bottled is suitable....I wouldn't have realised that some could actually scale a machine - and furthermore I wonder if, given my soft water here, I might add 50% Volvic (or Waitrose) to my tank and maybe have a little bit of the best of both worlds.Your reference to TDS figures has given me a rule of thumb when looking at, and comparing, bottled stuff. However I can see an easy, tried and tested, option is simply to use Volvic. - I wouldn't have known that. I'm grateful.

To be sure I want to preserve the machine's internals. And I would also like to think I'm making half decent tasting coffee and, in all honesty, I'm not unhappy with the taste of what I currently produce...but you always wonder if you can do better, especially now I've upgraded the grinder and machine and have just used a batch of the freshly roasted beans supplied by BellaBarista.

I'm currently scratching my head because I haven't yet managed to achieve the classic 2:1 ratio...that is to say, 26 or 28 seconds with 17 or 18 grams resulting in 2 fluid ounces in the cup. I generally produce nearer one ounce instead of two. So that will keep me fiddling about experimenting with tamp pressures and grind settings etc etc.

But, further thanks for inspiring me to look at things I wouldn't have otherwise done.


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## MWJB

A point to note about Waitrose Essential water: The 5l bottles are hard Welsh water from Princes Gate, the 2l bottles are the one that's better suited to machines with boilers (Stretton Hills).


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## Step21

If you can easily get hold of RO water at 10p/l then it's worth considering. You'll need to do some research on what to add to the RO base water to make it coffee suitable. Xpenno's coffee blog has specifics on this.

Another option you have is to get some home testing kits and find out the composition of your tap water. You'll need to do a bit of searching on here to find the right ones to try but aquarium shops will stock them. They are not expensive. General Hardness and alkalinity measuring kits are what to look for. I've not used any myself. Always meant to do it but never got round to it...

I'm sure someone knowledgeable will be able to help you improve your shotmaking - just post the problem up on the appropriate subforum. I don't use a machine myself.


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## Step21

MWJB said:


> A point to note about Waitrose Essential water: The 5l bottles are hard Welsh water from Princes Gate, the 1.5l bottles are the one that's better suited to machines with boilers (Stretton Hills).


Is that a recent change? 5L bottles used to be Stretton Hills but i've not bought any WE for ages.


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## MWJB

Step21 said:


> Is that a recent change? 5L bottles used to be Stretton Hills but i've not bought any WE for ages.


Don't know as I only ever have the 2l, but it was mentioned recently & 5l currently listed as "Pembrokeshire" on Ocado's site. So best to check the label.


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## DevonStan

All the above noted with (a) gratitude, (b) much interest and © OK, I can't think of anything for c.


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## StusBrews

julesjules said:


> Thanks for the tip.
> 
> Does anyone have a link to said water recipe? My Google-fu has failed me..


This is the link for the recipe:

http://grindscience.com/2015/08/making-water-for-coffee-sodastream-method-best-recipe-so-far/

I've tried brewing with bottled, filtered tap, filtered tap blended with RO to drop the hardness, Matt Perger's mentioned recipe and Xpenno's method.

Xpenno's method gIves by far the best cup for me, so is well worth it if you're willing to put the effort into making the water up.


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## CoffeeChris

Just getting back into coffee after a busy time and Have spent what feels like hours reading about what water to use. Amazing how things change and what people use. Currently using a 1:4 mix of ashbeck/glaceau/0.4 bicarb (thanks to Gary's recommendation). I live next to a waitrose and there water seems to be popular. Would I notice a big difference in using a mix of volvic/waitrose essential mix (for espresso) or stick to what I have....just a thought after reading pages of info!


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## JK009

Waitrose is very far away from my location.

Last week I tried another name from Tesco , on sale for 2.3p per litre. I feel it still ok


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## MWJB

JK009 said:


> Waitrose is very far away from my location.
> 
> Last week I tried another name from Tesco , on sale for 2.3p per litre. I feel it still ok.


Aqua Pura is very low in bicarbonate, it falls blow the recommended region for boilers.

Mix 3 parts to 1 part Brecon Carreg

Or, 4 parts to 1 part Buxton or Nestle Pure Life.

Or, 5 parts to 1 part Tesco Perthshire.


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## DavecUK

If using RO, I found this to be a good and simple recipe. I started using it nearly 10 years ago and still use it to this day. tastes good, no machine problems and no descaling...ever.

http://coffeetimex.wikidot.com/ro-water-copper-corrosion


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## dan1502

Just bought all that my local Waitrose have of 2L essential bottles (could be some members around me!) and enough Volvic to do a 50/50 mix as Tesco only do 1 litre bottles of Volvic ready for Monday's training with @garydyke1

Is 50/50 the recommended ratio for espresso? I've read a lot but bot all of this thread.


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## garydyke1

dan1502 said:


> Just bought all that my local Waitrose have of 2L essential bottles (could be some members around me!) and enough Volvic to do a 50/50 mix as Tesco only do 1 litre bottles of Volvic ready for Monday's training with @garydyke1
> 
> Is 50/50 the recommended ratio for espresso? I've read a lot but bot all of this thread.


Haven't had the best results with those waters TBH but lets see what happens : )


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## dan1502

Oh well, I should have asked first. I also have Ashbeck and Buxton so could combine any of those. Any thoughts before I crack on tomorrow?


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## garydyke1

dan1502 said:


> Oh well, I should have asked first. I also have Ashbeck and Buxton so could combine any of those. Any thoughts before I crack on tomorrow?


Always useful to have some Glacéau Smartwater around


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## siliconslave

I've got a guy locally that sells RO water for aquariums, but he also does 30 tds 'drinking water' thats apparently just ro without the polishing resin. Would this be a good alternative to RO + additives?


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## MWJB

siliconslave said:


> I've got a guy locally that sells RO water for aquariums, but he also does 30 tds 'drinking water' thats apparently just ro without the polishing resin. Would this be a good alternative to RO + additives?


 Likely to still need some additives for espresso machine boilers & or brighter coffees manual brewed.

You need to know the GH & KH values, more then TDS.


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