# Dualit grinder doesn't do espresso - where do I go now?



## alexellis2 (Aug 27, 2013)

I have bought a new Gaggia Classic machine and own a Dualit Burr Coffee Grinder 75002 (£60-80).

I am finding that I can't get the magic 20-25 seconds on a single shot with the finest grind setting and tamping down. I have been using 9-10g of ground coffee to stop it coming through too quickly - and even then it tastes very bitter.

After purchasing the Silvia wand upgrade and unpressurised baskets I'm over £200 out of pocket and can't get a decent espresso.

I've seen that the Iberital MC2 is the way a lot of people go - but plus VAT and P&P it's in the bounds of £150 again.

What options do I have regarding hand grinders - are they a good option and can they perform better than the Dualit I have? I.e. Hiero grinder vs Porlex?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

2nd mc2 can be gotten for 80 ish. Plenty of them around to avoid buyung new. Where did you get your dualitt from. Somewhere like amazon will acceptt back after 30 days. Can you return it?


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## alexellis2 (Aug 27, 2013)

I've had the Dualit for at least 2 years, great for stove-top and filter, but it isn't giving the goods.

I looked for used MC2s and couldn't find any in that price range - can people give me some feedback about the hand grinders - do they work well with a Gaggia Classic?


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

You could always dose higher, which will slow the flow down for the time being.

The double basket should be dosed with at least 14 and most people go up to 20 anyway.

If your grind is no good, the coffee wont be great, but its better than the 20 second long black.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

You also need to get rid of the pressurised basket and stupid black plastic crema perfetta pin and buy a standard unpressurised double basket from ebay or from somewhere such as happy donkey, if you are using the pressurised basket then you must use the pin underneath it in the portafilter and you don't really need to tamp that much when doing this

How much espresso are you trying to brew from 9-10g of coffee? Most people stay away from making single shots and just use the double basket with anything from 14-18g of coffee or even buy VST baskets that can take up to 22g. The other thing is most people here work by weighing the amount of coffee going in and weighing the espresso output and working to a brew ratio of around 1.6 times the dry weight to determine how much espresso they should be making.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

alexellis2 said:


> I've had the Dualit for at least 2 years, great for stove-top and filter, but it isn't giving the goods.
> 
> I looked for used MC2s and couldn't find any in that price range - can people give me some feedback about the hand grinders - do they work well with a Gaggia Classic?


The hand grinders will produce an acceptible grind, but wont be very adjustable.

So, you are looking at a decent grind, but it might be one or two seconds out for the pull you want.

You can fix that with tamp and dose adjustments though, its not so easy to know what you are looking for without a bit of experience though.


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## 666tyler (Apr 19, 2013)

Might sound a stupid question but have you done the opv mod? If not you'll struggle no matter what grinder you get.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

666tyler said:


> Might sound a stupid question but have you done the opv mod? If not you'll struggle no matter what grinder you get.


Not true.

Its perfectly possible to make decent espresso without.

It does help though.


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## alexellis2 (Aug 27, 2013)

I added the basic details in the first post, but I'll just go over them again:


Gaggia Classic - modified Silvia steam wand, no other mods

Dualit Burr Grinder on finest or penultimate grade

Unpressurised basket - 1 shot version

8-10g coffee - weighed on scales

57mm stainless steel tamper


The timing is way off, I've come to understand my grinder is no good for espresso on the Gaggia. It tastes way too bitter and comes through too quickly.


If I buy a hand grinder can I get better results?

Has anyone here used the hand grinders I mentioned?


Thanks guys


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

The porlex is a good grinder, and it will suffice to get a fine enough grind.

Really, you might be better initially trying a normal double basket with something like a 16g dose and aiming for something like 25g out in the 25-30 second range. This will truly tell you if the grinder is duff.

If so, get something like a porlex till you're ready to upgrade.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

As above. Start with a standard double basket


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

There used to be a recognised mod on this. i did it many years ago. You basically take the burrs out and when you refit them, advance them so the starting position is closer together which creates a finer grind. I will see if I cn find the link from years ago for you in a moment

http://www.toomuchcoffee.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&btitle=CE&mid=&ceid=166


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

The MC 2 is a good pairing with the Gaggia Classic, it may take a few shots to get the grind just right , after that it is just a matter of a turn or two of the adjuster knob to accommodate different beans or day to day changes in temperature/humidity which can affect the beans.

Buy a standard double basket and try 16 gms of coffee and use this to obtain 25/26 gms total output in 25 sec. If not weighing try for approx 30 ml in 25 secs, (this includes the crema) you can adjust this to personal taste later.

The MC 2 is not suitable to change between espresso and filter on a day to day basis. ( Go for second hand off the forum )


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Here is one lonk that someone on here started

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?8378-Modifying-Dualit-75015-to-achieve-a-finer-grind

here is another one which is crystal clear

http://www.toomuchcoffee.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&btitle=CE&mid=&ceid=166


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## 666tyler (Apr 19, 2013)

Try here for the mod to the grinder

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?8378-Modifying-Dualit-75015-to-achieve-a-finer-grind


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## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

Would suggest that your initial diagnosis of the grinder is accurate. I would ditch the Dualit as not fit for purpose, as I did with mine, got nowhere near espresso grind even after dismantling and tweaking to grind finer. A proper grinder will be a revelation  as it was to me! Can't go wrong with a Classic and Silvia steam wand. IMHO of course.....

Ian


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

As already mentioned, the grinder will be a revelation if you change or manage to modify it. My father in law had a Cuisinart burr grinder which grounds rocks. When I mooded it for him, he couldn't believe the difference and then when I gave him a demoka burr grinder ... well let's just say he doesn't go to the bar for his cafe sols and tallats (short coffee with short milk) now. It doesn't have to be a great grinder but a burr rinder which grinds fine enough and slow enough not to burn the coffee.


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## alexellis2 (Aug 27, 2013)

Hi everyone,

I am tempted to overhaul the Dualit and make it grind finer, but part of me doesn't really want to start taking it to pieces so I bought a Porlex mini and this is what happened.

I have kept to pulling singles because I am running through beans like there is no tomorrow and doubles (20-25g) wouldn't give me many chances to practise.

On three clicks back from shut the Porlex with 8-9g of coffee shot through about as fast as the Dualit on its finest setting. On one click back from closed the Porlex bunged up the machine, it took 15 seconds for the first drip and after a minute there was barely a Ristretto's worth of liquid. I then went back two clicks and this seemed to be around the right position, the first few drips came through in just under 5 seconds and then by 25-30 seconds there was about the right amount of liquid. It'd be ideal if there was a step between 1 and 2 turns back from closed, but it does still leave me with dosing and tamping to play with.

I do need to get hold of a clear glass with measuring lines as I am using white espresso cups and I don't know how much liquid equals 1-2oz.

Fresh Nero classico beans (dry, medium roast satin finish) give a faster pull with less crema than the fresh Waitrose espresso beans (dark, oily finish)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok need to clarify a couple of things.

Do you have a non pressurised basket for both singles and double now? I'd stick the double basket if non pressurised its easier to get better epsresso with. Single dosing due to the basket size is difficult to do well.

Are your beans from Nero the chain shop? Do they have a roast date on them ?

Are you weighing what you are dosing? 20-25 g for a double is very high for a standard basket. If you are not weighing your dose , then get some scales . Tis will help you achieve consistency.try 16 g of fresh roasted ground beans .

You can weigh the output of your espresso instead of measuring volume . Aim for a 1.6 output . If dosing 16 in go for 25-26 g out . Don't worry about the volume this gives you. But aim to get this within the 22-30 second area.

Without answering these I suspect your beans are not fresh as well. Beans bought from, waitrose or Nero will have been roasted ages ago, and will not be " fresh" Beans are only good for 2-4 weeks after roast date ( depending on rest time ) . Bans from waitrose will have been roasted and packed weeks before , and have a best before date of months . Not good . Fresh beans from a local roaster or bought online ( rave , hasbean ) will taste better and help you with your pours. I believe there is a offer on site somewhere for some beans for £1 from online roaster . Bargain.

You may be doing all of this already , if so , the we can go from here.

Hope some of this helps


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hi i see from a other post you looking at roasting some fresh beans, I'd strongly recommend getting some roasted from an online retailer to practice your espresso on before Introducing another variable such as your own home roaster beans. But up to you. If you can answer the questions I asked can direct you with some more specific help


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## alexellis2 (Aug 27, 2013)

I have both basket sizes in both pressurised and unpressurised, but I am only using the unpressurised ones. I would prefer to pull singles, but it seems like doubles are de facto. I have been putting 7-9g in a single to get close to the right timing and I am weighing the beans/grounds with salter kitchen scales for every shot.

There is no local roaster I am aware of in the area so I could do with a link to the £1 coffee. It seems like the cheapest you can buy 200g of beans for online is around £7.50 including P&P which is quite horrendous for essentially 10 shots (much less when you include practise runs)

I'll try 16g of beans in a double next and see how that goes.

As regards the DIY roast as another variable - I do agree with you so I will be doing both - buying pre-roasted and trying the home roast.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

alexellis2 said:


> I have both basket sizes in both pressurised and unpressurised, but I am only using the unpressurised ones. I would prefer to pull singles, but it seems like doubles are de facto. I have been putting 7-9g in a single to get close to the right timing and I am weighing the beans/grounds with salter kitchen scales for every shot.
> 
> There is no local roaster I am aware of in the area so I could do with a link to the £1 coffee. It seems like the cheapest you can buy 200g of beans for online is around £7.50 including P&P which is quite horrendous for essentially 10 shots (much less when you include practise runs)
> 
> I'll try 16g of beans in a double next and see how that goes.


You can get coffee from Rave in 1kg bags from 10£ for the cheapest, to about £15 or so, including postage.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

alexellis2 said:


> I have both basket sizes in both pressurised and unpressurised, but I am only using the unpressurised ones. I would prefer to pull singles, but it seems like doubles are de facto. I have been putting 7-9g in a single to get close to the right timing and I am weighing the beans/grounds with salter kitchen scales for every shot.
> 
> There is no local roaster I am aware of in the area so I could do with a link to the £1 coffee. It seems like the cheapest you can buy 200g of beans for online is around £7.50 including P&P which is quite horrendous for essentially 10 shots (much less when you include practise runs)
> 
> I'll try 16g of beans in a double next and see how that goes.


Ok thanks , your pours are quick I suspect because the beans are not fresh , . Good coffee costs money unfortunately . Rave ( google rave coffee beans) for example do 250g roasted beans for £4-5 then shipping on top, this is very good value , and their coffee tastes excellent, as kyle says above certain amounts postage is free. Compare that to £3-4 for the garage drinks you buy at Starbucks, it's good value . You can't pay supermarket prices for proper artisan roasted beans , they are your ingredient, rubbish in , rubbish out.

You should be able to get more than 10 doubles from a 250g bag 16g isn't a bag dose for a double basket. Yep doubles are easier to do than singles. I understand why you want to try single due to getting more from the beans you buy. But without being over technical the basket for singles meaning getting better espresso from them is more difficult .

Once you get fresh beans , properly ground with our hand grinder you will start to see better tasting espresso , with better crema , in the 20-30 seconds your aiming for .

There are other things that can help you ( tamper that fits your basket ) , but try the above those first . Everyone goes through a steep learning curve with their first machine and grinder. You will blow though some beans without getting good drinks for, all of them. Then you get your process right, it gets easier,and the drinks get better. Your in the right place for advise . Persevere , it's worth it .


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Not just with your first machine either, when I changed machines my first 500g of beans were awful inconsistent extractions varying in time by as much as 1 or 2 mins.

And this is with a proper tamper, machine, a 250£ grinder and knowing what I'm doing.

Getting it right just takes time.

Doing your extractions with the double basket will make things a lot easier for you.

Plus, when you really start to extract properly by weight, the target extraction for a single pull is not even worth pulling. You are talking less than 10g.

So, in my advice, buy that 1kg of rave, pull a lot of 14 - 16g double shots, get experience.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> Not just with your first machine either, when I changed machines my first 500g of beans were awful inconsistent extractions varying in time by as much as 1 or 2 mins.
> 
> And this is with a proper tamper, machine, a 250£ grinder and knowing what I'm doing.
> 
> ...


+1 on what he said


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Agree with everything that has been said, buying a kg of rave will make it feel much more like you aren't throwing away your money. Every time I buy more premium beans and I get a sink shot it pains me a little inside.

Just to clarify the single vs double discussion, there are specific reason why pulling a double is better, firstly is is widely considered that the best bit of the shot is the fist bit. So even if you want a single, dose a double and stop it half way, but also its down to the type of basket;

A gaggia comes with a basket that looks like this










when you tamp this the consistency is all over the place, the edges of the basket would get all the pressure, and the water will go straight through the less tamped coffee in the middle and ruin your shot. This basket is essentially useless unless you are using a pressurised portaflter.

The standard double basket is better as the walls are mostly straight, but at some point you will want to buy a proper basket with straight walls (preferably VST, although they are pricy)

There is the VST single basket that looks like this, here you put the coffee in the small centre part.










But you need a smaller tamper, which is again more money and pretty rare (La Marzocco do a double ended tamper) and reports of results are inconsistent and the general opinion seems to be that they are not worth it.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Good explanation on the vst and baskets, way better than could have done. Congrats , I would get a tamper that fits first tho , think the OP is using a 53 plastic tamper currently


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Ok, not massively helpful, but here is an illustrated guide to pulling a simple espresso with the classic.

Pardon the poor photography and the low quality images, my kitchen is DARK so I was using a fully open lens and iso 1600.

Mostly the exposure was ok though.

You probably already know all this, but I just felt like taking some photos of something and had some time to kill.

Anyone feel free to criticise my technique as I'm always looking to improve the routine.

1) The set up. 

So, this is the set up, pretty basic in the grand scheme of things, but not incapable.

Of note is that the classic has a Silvia wand, which isn't stock and the basket in the portafilter is a 15g VST, the second basket on the grinder is the stock Gaggia double and used only as a measure.

2) Purge the grinder.

put like 1 or 2g though the grinder just to purge stale grounds and bring the grind in-line with the current burr distance (if grind has been adjusted).

Throw whatever you grind into the sink.

3) Measure your shot input. 

Zero the basket onto your scales and add an exact amount of coffee, in my case I used 14.2g. No real reason why there is an extra .2 of a gram, I was just concentrating on trying to take a photo with a massive lens in a very dark room, so I missed it.

Put the beans into the hopper.

4) Flush about 1/2 an ounce though the portafilter for a quick clean/warm. 

Basically, just to keep everything nice and warm and clean.

5) Clean the PF with your PF towel. 

So now your PF is wet and probably has a few grounds which were flushed out of the group if you were not exactly rigorous at cleaning, just give the basket a good old wipe to get all of that water out.

6) Grind your coffee. 

Grind that coffee into the PF

7) Extra barista points if you distribute the coffee properly. 

Basically, stir that coffee to break up any clumps and get a nice level distribution, the bed of coffee wants to be pretty flat and fluffy.

8) Tamp. 

Roughly 14kg or 30lb of pressure is recommended, but any amount of pressure which you can reproduce every-time you tamp is acceptable.

Tamping harder has the advantage that you can grind very slightly more coarse however, which is an advantage if you have a less than consistent grinder or you suffer a little more from over extraction.

9) Heat your cup. 

Purge about 1oz of water into the cup.

10) Engage the group.

Engage your loaded PF into the group.

11) Weigh your cup.

Empty the cup into the drip tray and then place onto the scales and tear.

12) Pull the shot.

Pull your shot into the cup and start your timer, the coffee should start to flow at about 4 or 5 seconds and be a hazel colour with dark speckles, if you are getting a blonde or yellowish stream then you need to ensure your coffee

A) Fresh

B) Fresh but well rested (let the coffee rest for about 4 days after roasting).

C) You need to distribute your coffee more evenly and tamp more securely. Your tamp should be a single high pressure compression with a single half turn polish, no tapping the PF or tamping a second time. Imagine you are building a sand castle, any faults with your tamping will lead to you building a hill. Or in this case, an awful over-extracted coffee.

13) Stop the shot at about 25 - 27 seconds. 

The time you stop at will vary on your extraction, in general, if you are using a VST basket its better to grind courser, tamp harder and stop sooner when using a darker roast to prevent over-extraction.

When using the standard Gaggia basket, 27 is a good target. If you over-extract (bitter), grind coarser and stop the shot sooner; if you are under-extract (sour, acidic) grind finer and stop the shot later.

You should always aim for the same weight, no matter when you stop the shot, to ensure consistency between shots.

14) Weigh your shot. 

There is a horrible irony here considering I'm writing a guide.

For a 14g dose, a 31g espresso is pretty heavy. If I was using some more aggressive beans, I think I definitely would have ruined this cup. Luckily I find these beans like to be over pulled a little into a more 'Italian' style shot.

Actually, I should have pulled something in the range of 22g.

The rule of thumb is input * 1.6 = ideal output.

This isn't a perfect rule, but for example, the shot I produced was a little bitter; it was actually pretty drinkable and very much better than the bench mark for the average coffee shop.

15) Enjoy (probably......).


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## alexellis2 (Aug 27, 2013)

Thanks for the useful post and guide with pictures. I think the freshness of my beans and the grind granularity are the reasons why my shots are not satisfactory rather than the process as a whole, but this will help get things fine tuned.

This morning I opened a 1kg bag of Lavazza Super Crema (£13, the type used in small cafes) - now people here will say this coffee isn't fresh, but apparently it is fresh because it's been vacuum packed. I suspect I will get better results with an online roaster which I will try after I finish this bag.

First I ground 9g of coffee to pull a single and it came through very quickly, then I pulled a double with 16g of coffee on the finest setting on my Dualit. This looked better, but was still quite fast.

Next I ground 16g with the Porlex on two clicks back from closed and I had 4-5 seconds of no output then about a 25 second pour with better crema than I've seen yet.

I made both into separate lattes and the Porlex grind one was definitely a better extraction. The flavour was so much better with both drinks than the oily Waitrose beans or the Nero beans had provided. I think they were 'stale' by geek standards before the packs were even sealed. Useful for stovetop or french press, but not espresso.

Using the double basket was way better than the single and the pucks were dry instead of wet, I think I am going to retire the single basket.

After this morning's experimentation I am sure I can get some decent results with these beans even though they won't be as good as freshly roasted and posted. I will go to Rave and get some beans ordered when I'm most of the way through the 1kg of Lavazza.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hi , sorry to disappoint , doesn't matter if the beans are vacuum packed or not , it's howold it is from roast date that counts, they will have bean roastd packed and shipped off across the world. Your lavazza will not be as you say fresh, really don't buy it its a waste of money on beans, as are Nero, Starbucks and supermarket whole beans.. Take the advice, save your money , these beans are cheap for a reason .

If you get beans from rave , they will have a roast date on them. Leave them 5-10 days depending on the blend or coffee you have . Then grind and taste

There is no stale by geek standards, as you say, they are either fresh or not







. And that makes everyone on here a geek btw.....


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Illy are about the best, but even after a day of opening the can, the beans are ruined.


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## bignorry (Mar 19, 2013)

I used the Dualit /barista for four years .Only takes ten mins to strip and adjust settings. I thought I was getting ok shots until i bought fresh roast then blown away by difference,which led me to wonder how good it would be with a better grinder.Next week bought a super jolly and was hooked .Dont wait until your current beans are finished order now and when the new rave are 7/10 days old chuck the lavazza in the bin.


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## chrisah1 (Nov 21, 2013)

any londoners use Whole Foods for beans?

Only places near me are local hero, barossa, fernandez & Wells and Tomtom. :'(


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