# Can you justify an expensive grinder?!



## Voocash (Jan 16, 2020)

Hi there,

I'm a happy user of cheap delonghi £40 grinder. I managed to find it on the marketplace for £15. It grinds coffee beans on my command🤠. Grind setting can be adjusted to be a bit coarser or a bit finer to my preferences. Not 100% even grind (especially on coarser side) but it does a good job👌. I brew the coffee then and it tastes good both from aeropress or v60.

But I'm a gadget-man🤖 I like those fancy coffee gadgets and sometimes I'm struggling to justify my purchases. I see those grinders like Niche selling for £500 and I'm wondering is it worth the money? Is it going to change of my coffee cup dramatically? It looks fancy but I'm not sure if I can taste that £500 in my cup. It's great to show off though!👑

Can you tell the difference in a blind test between Niche or cheapskate grinder? 😵


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## allikat (Jan 27, 2020)

Yes.

That cheap grinder is fine for some brew methods. My old Severin cost 50 quid, and went to my friend for his drip machine. It's perfectly capable there. However it could never do a good espresso, no matter how much I tweaked it. And he'd never really notice the difference anyway, the guy has one tastebud left and it's tuned for chilli peppers.

The grinder I have now cost me, in total, about £120 or so. 65 for the grinder, and the rest on fixing it up. And the espressos coming out of my even older Gaggia are so much better now.

If your grinder works for you and how you brew, that is perfectly fine and acceptable, even here. But a better grinder would bring out flavour depth from those beans that's present, but weak. Those tasting notes on good beans require a good grinder to show themselves. Sure you can make good coffee with a low end grinder, but you'll never make amazing coffee with them. What you feel getting more depth from your coffee is worth is your own personal decision to make.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Niche (which I'll be ordering next month) is quite cheap for an espresso grinder and easy to justify. I make on average 2 coffees a day, which would cost me at least 5 euro in a café, that is around 1800 euro per year, so yes, I can justify the cost of it.

I'd struggle with Monolith's or Versalab's price but if I could afford it I'd get one of those for sure. It's a hobby 😉


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Yep sure can. But buying the right one is a chore.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Absolutely you can taste the difference. I would be more than happy to blind taste a cheap grinder next to an expensive one.

Having said this, I think the law of diminishing returns starts to kick hard with coffee gear. After around the £400 mark I think the returns you get are relatively low. You often start to pay for fancy features, speed of grinding, better quality construction etc. There is still a difference in cup but not like the difference of a £50 Argos job compared to say a Niche or Mignon.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Talking about new grinders in terms of price, both the Mignon for hopper fed grinding and the Niche for single dosing are examples of entry level gear for espresso, IMHO. They sit in the 300-500 GBP range, when new.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

For some, the Niche is a cheapskate grinder 🙂


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Absolutely you can taste the difference. I would be more than happy to blind taste a cheap grinder next to an expensive one.
> 
> Having said this, I think the law of diminishing returns starts to kick hard with coffee gear. After around the £400 mark I think the returns you get are relatively low. You often start to pay for fancy features, speed of grinding, better quality construction etc. There is still a difference in cup but not like the difference of a £50 Argos job compared to say a Niche or Mignon.


 I'm reposting my thoughts on this from another thread as BlackCatCoffee, I'd love to know what you thought about this.

Mostly everyone who takes espresso seriously on this forum talks about the grinder being (almost) more important than the machine (which I totally agree with) and then go on to suggest Niche, Mignon etc (and these are probably at the pareto optimal point at which the law of diminishing returns applies for the majority of people).

From my reading (and taste experience) there are substantial differences between flat burr and conical burr in the taste output (related to the spread of ground sizes) which no one really seems to discuss a lot here... In my mind one conical burr grinder is much like another in terms of output (assuming they are comparable) ditto for flat burr, just the functionality: reliability, dosing, weighing etc, so comparing a Niche to a Mignon for me is rather like comparing tangerines to clementines - both nice but depends on your taste preference.

I get as good single dosing from my Mignon as my Sette now (really zero retention) with a set of bellows which is fine for me (perhaps not for others). However I can distinctly taste the difference between the flat burr of the Eureka, more muted taste and the conical burr of the Sette , which has a greater taste gamma (more sharps, sours etc)... and I like both depending on what mood I'm in...

My question is surely that's a bigger decision consideration (conical vs flat burr) when buying a grinder than other factors which can be compensated for (scales, bellows etc).

You can't easily change the taste profile of the grind with aftermarket accessories. Am I wrong?


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## Voocash (Jan 16, 2020)

Ok interesting.

I don't drink espresso since. I only use other brewing methods V60/Aeropress/Chemex. 
Perhaps you can recommend cheaper alternatives to Niche grinder. I don't really mind whether its conical or flat burr.


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

Voocash said:


> Ok interesting.
> 
> I don't drink espresso since. I only use other brewing methods V60/Aeropress/Chemex.
> Perhaps you can recommend cheaper alternatives to Niche grinder. I don't really mind whether its conical or flat burr.


 Ahh ok... from what I've read there's much less of an issue with coarser grinds (although espresso specific grinders sometimes have problems creating consistently coarser grinds)... the Eureka Mignon range has one specifically for pour over/drip I think... that's around 300/350 new.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Voocash said:


> Ok interesting.
> 
> I don't drink espresso since. I only use other brewing methods V60/Aeropress/Chemex.
> Perhaps you can recommend cheaper alternatives to Niche grinder. I don't really mind whether its conical or flat burr.


 For brewing....Wilfa grinders?

@Kannan Are you running the Mignon with a weight on the beans or just single dosing and using bellow? You'll get better quality from it if you run it with a full hopper or use a small weight.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Kannan said:


> I'm reposting my thoughts on this from another thread as BlackCatCoffee, I'd love to know what you thought about this.
> 
> Mostly everyone who takes espresso seriously on this forum talks about the grinder being (almost) more important than the machine (which I totally agree with) and then go on to suggest Niche, Mignon etc (and these are probably at the pareto optimal point at which the law of diminishing returns applies for the majority of people).
> 
> ...


 I fully agree there is a difference between the taste of conical and flat burrs.

I think when people come to buy their first proper burr grinder it is very hard for someone to describe the difference. It really needs to be a side by side in order for someone to appreciate the difference. Not many of us get that luxury which is why I think it is something not discussed all that much.

Up until the Niche and Sette came out I also think conical burrs did not really have a good midrange advocate. You either got cheapie ones in say a Dualit or you got the likes of the Mazzer Robur right at the other end of the scale. The default for a good mid range was generally flat burrs. I think that is still similar when it comes to recommendations.

I personally have a preference for flat burr grinders, I guess I am lucky to have been able to experiment however!


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> For brewing....Wilfa grinders?
> 
> @Kannan Are you running the Mignon with a weight on the beans or just single dosing and using bellow? You'll get better quality from it if you run it with a full hopper or use a small weight.


 Actually running it with just the single dose and bellow and yes I agree I'll probably get better grind consistency with weight on top/more full hopper... right now I'm experimenting with my workflow and also with profiling so I'll move onto grind perfection next  I'm yet to get the Kruve back out to see about distribution and consistency but that's in the plan... lots to play with before my next set of equipment arrives lol!


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Absolutely you can taste the difference. I would be more than happy to blind taste a cheap grinder next to an expensive one.
> Having said this, I think the law of diminishing returns starts to kick hard with coffee gear. After around the £400 mark I think the returns you get are relatively low. You often start to pay for fancy features, speed of grinding, better quality construction etc. There is still a difference in cup but not like the difference of a £50 Argos job compared to say a Niche or Mignon.


I have compared an EK43, Vario with Steelburrs, A big ass Conic, a cheap grinder and one of the good travel hand grinders plus additional stuff.

With Some of them the difference is mute, for example there where a very little difference between the two good handgrinders that I have owned an the big conic. With some of the others there is quite a pronounced difference, especially between flat and conics. The EK is quite different to any of the others in it's taste profile, I could even pick it out against a Vario with steel burrs, most of the time as the cups where sweeter, clearer and the notes stood out where it where more muted on the Vario.

So I believe the return is bigger than you might think, but again it really comes down to what you like.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

malling said:


> I have compared an EK43, Vario with Steelburrs, A big ass Conic, a cheap grinder and one of the good travel hand grinders plus additional stuff.
> 
> With Some of them the difference is mute, for example there where a very little difference between the two good handgrinders that I have owned an the big conic. With some of the others there is quite a pronounced difference, especially between flat and conics. The EK is quite different to any of the others in it's taste profile, I could even pick it out against a Vario with steel burrs, most of the time as the cups where sweeter, clearer and the notes stood out where it where more muted on the Vario.
> 
> So I believe the return is bigger than you might think, but again it really comes down to what you like.


 Hmmm I am not convinced I am afraid. I did some double blind tasting with an importer I work with and a group of industry chaps once, some of the results were interesting to say the least.

I am not suggesting there is no difference, just that I think the leap between a high street grinder and what I would describe as an entry level enthusiast grinder is much greater than the entry level enthusiast grinder and then something like an EK. As I say, differences yes, but the law of diminishing returns kicks hard at a certain point.


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## Voocash (Jan 16, 2020)

Great feedback and comments chaps.

Since I'm not experienced I'd like to ask for your suggestion here. Knowing my brewing methods, I also stick to light/light-mid roast coffees from different origins. Single dose grinder would be the best since I like switching coffees everyday.

What would you recommend me to buy Niche Zero or Eureka Mignon? There is a price difference between them and burr type. Should I take a punt and go for NIche or Mignon will do as good?


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Niche


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## ronan08 (Dec 21, 2019)

Niche if like to change often


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## Voocash (Jan 16, 2020)

haha I was expecting the Niche 

If I only had more industrial contacts I'm sure I would produce better product than Niche at lower price. I'm a professional design engineer and I can't see many difficulties in designing a clever machine. Perhaps anyone would like to do a joint-venture


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Yes you can tell a difference - although for brewed only, there's alternatives: Vario, used Dittings/Mahlkonigs. If you are fine with conicals for brewed, Wilfas are probably just as fine as the Niche.

Build a 120mm flat burr grinder with tight tolerances and zero retention. I'll throw money at you.


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

Voocash said:


> If I only had more industrial contacts I'm sure I would produce better product than Niche at lower price.


 I've worked in industrial design and production and I must say, mazer burrs at this price point (their bom cost needs to be sub £100 to get an rrp of £500) - I think they've done really well!! I think it would be really hard to produce a better grinder for the money unless you could really buy in bulk or had the resources to produce at scale...


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

PPapa said:


> Yes you can tell a difference - although for brewed only, there's alternatives: Vario, used Dittings/Mahlkonigs. If you are fine with conicals, Wilfas are probably just as fine as the Niche.
> 
> Build a 120mm flat burr grinder with tight tolerances and zero retention. I'll throw money at you.


 Wilfa and Niche, well that's same Niche and Mono Conical then.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Jony said:


> Wilfa and Niche, well that's same Niche and Mono Conical then.


 Meant "If you are fine with conicals *for brewed*, Wilfas are probably just as fine as the Niche." - edited the post now.

Niche is a good grinder for a beginner or someone who likes dark roasts.


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