# VST vs stock baskets



## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

I've really been struggling to get a good even extraction out of my brewtus and SJ recently (see videos thread). Often uneven, never really coming into a single cone and giving me very bitter shots. I've tried all manner of techniques over the last 6 months (wdt, hard tamp, soft tamp, nutation, straight tamp onto mound, distribution with finger, knock flat tamper btw). Prior to the brewtus I had the same problems with my classic. I've always put it down to my technique, I've only been doing this for 1 as a half years so maybe I just needed to keep trying different things to see what I get right. But in the last 6 months I've moved to working at home and I'm making two-three coffees a day and I'm not getting better. Recently in a last ditch attempt I stopped using the 18g VST which I have used since the very beginning. This was based on a few comments about them being hard to use. And what do you know my shots are much better. All that bitterness has gone and I'm finding it much easier to get a pour which appears to extract evenly and based on taste is extracting evenly because of the lack of bitterness.

So I guess my questions are what should I do from here? Continue to use the stock basket and just get better at that? Or if I persisted and got good shots out the VST would they taste notably better? Ie when they are good they are amazing but when they are used badly they really suck? Are there a whole load of newbie classic et al users buying into VST to have the best when in actual fact they would be so much better just using stock baskets? Or is it just me?


----------



## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I have no experience of the VST baskets, but I LOVE my IMS basket. It's so forgiving and handles a nice range of doses if you need to up/down dose for a particular reason.


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

I'd say if stock tastes great to you then stick with them. Taste is a personal thing, just because someone else says VSTs will give you better taste doesn't necessarily make it true for you.

Go with what works for you. You don't need to be a sheep


----------



## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

Daren said:


> I'd say if stock tastes great to you then stick with them. Taste is a personal thing, just because someone else says VSTs will give you better taste doesn't necessarily make it true for you.
> 
> Go with what works for you. You don't need to be a sheep


But it's not just taste. Visually I find it a nightmare to get an even extraction with a VST basket. *So taste aside do you find them hard to use?


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

VST baskets require a finer grind. the holes are bigger. The finer grind needed for an appropriate flow rate = higher extraction, the mojo doesn't lie.

Its just a drink at the end of the day, it shouldn't be stressing you out. work with whats working for you.

...but yes once dialled in VST baskets taste way better IMO


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

I cannot speak for the VST baskets but having tried the IMS competition basket I found I could not obtain a good pour, even changing the grind, quantity of coffee and the beans.

In "the cup" I found it variable and not to my liking. I reverted to the standard supplied basket and found consistent pour and quality in the cup (on a Verona)

To my mind there is more hype and sales in these baskets than benefits.


----------



## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

I have an 18g VST and wouldn't return to the standard stock basket now. Far better pours and far better consistency.


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Stuff what it looks like... surely what it tastes like is the important thing? If you think stock tastes better then stay with stock. Visually - if you can see it's extracting unevenly and you can't rectify it then move on.

As for finding them hard to use - personally no, not harder, however they do take a bit more effort and experimenting.


----------



## emin-j (Dec 10, 2011)

Have recently gone back to using the stock basket with 16 gms, just seems better flavour than with the 18 gm VST I had been using.


----------



## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

Daren said:


> Stuff what it looks like... surely what it tastes like is the important thing? If you think stock tastes better then stay with stock. Visually - if you can see it's extracting unevenly and you can't rectify it then move on.


Agree with that. A "perfect" looking extraction is no guarantee of a good tasting shot. A merely decent looking extraction can taste great if it's dialed in right. That's where getting obsessed with perfecting the appearance of bottomless portafilter shots hits a dead end.

Of course a shot that looks terribly uneven is not going to taste good.


----------



## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

AndyS said:


> Agree with that. A "perfect" looking extraction is no guarantee of a good tasting shot. A merely decent looking extraction can taste great if it's dialed in right. That's where getting obsessed with perfecting the appearance of bottomless portafilter shots hits a dead end.
> 
> Of course a shot that looks terribly uneven is not going to taste good.


Agreed, the look of a shot and the pour is a fairly good indication of the quality, it's not the be all and end all though. The best way to establish whether a shot tastes good is if it tastes good!


----------



## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

I have always found that a good quality "normal" basket is the best way to go. I have some nice Gaggia baskets an Italian friend gave me a good few years ago and I have always found them very good. I have a couple of VST baskets but have never found them as great as people say. What is important is to use a good quality basket imo.


----------



## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

seeq said:


> Agreed, the look of a shot and the pour is a fairly good indication of the quality, it's not the be all and end all though. The best way to establish whether a shot tastes good is if it tastes good!


And I have been doing this, to me the stock basket tastes much better. But given the way my extractions appear to go with the VST I'm not really surprised by this, they are very uneven.

I get that it's what's in the cup that counts but I was just trying to quell a series of responses saying go by taste. I have gone by taste and the stock basket is better. I guess what I was getting at is (like Gary says) if I could actually get a decent looking pour out of a VST I'm sure it would taste better, but I can't get consistent enough with it to compare.

I will continue experiment. I think I will continue to perfect my technique with the stock basket for now and try the VST again in a few weeks


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I get really good results with VST and my machine compared to stock. But today with the L1 the stock baskets were better than the VST.

I think it boils down to whatever works best for your machine and you.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I get really good results with VST and my machine compared to stock. But today with the L1 the stock baskets were better than the VST.
> 
> I think it boils down to whatever works best for your machine and you.


Shot I give you ( that Callum made were vst







)


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Shot I give you ( that Callum made were vst
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol...didn't realise.....but that was Callum pulling it not me.









My favourite shot on the EK today BTW, not your classic espresso shot but it was something definitely special. Massive complexity and cleanness as shots go. Hats off to the roasting of the beans too.....basically 10/10 for Callum and Lee


----------



## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

Is there a general consensus that they are trickier to use? Should newer users like myself be steered away from them? I might be wrong but in the back of mind I think I would be further down the road if I'd progressed to VST rather than jumping straight on with them.

Keep in mind that I'm doing this journey on my own, I don't know anybody else who is in to coffee other than baristas at my local to ask. I'm sure some demos/ practical tuition and I'd be much wiser


----------



## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Dave.wilton said:


> Is there a general consensus that they are trickier to use? Should newer users like myself be steered away from them? I might be wrong but in the back of mind I think I would be further down the road if I'd progressed to VST rather than jumping straight on with them.
> 
> Keep in mind that I'm doing this journey on my own, I don't know anybody else who is in to coffee other than baristas at my local to ask. I'm sure some demos/ practical tuition and I'd be much wiser


Exactly on the same road as well and I am also without any help. I have not found great difficulty with VST but a 54.4+ tamper helps (probably helps with any basket). I use an Espro 58.35 which is great for newbies and is very consistent but i plan to change to torrs soon if my tamping is consistent.


----------



## CallumT (Aug 23, 2013)

I honestly think the VSTs are king. Once all the distribution woes are sorted and the extraction is looking visually good the results are far superior to IMS competition. For my tastes anyway, IMS gave me a flatter taste profile I don't mojo but I assume this just means I can achieve same levels of ext %.

Need to get a mojo...


----------



## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

CallumT said:


> I honestly think the VSTs are king. Once all the distribution woes are sorted and the extraction is looking visually good the results are far superior to IMS competition. For my tastes anyway, IMS gave me a flatter taste profile I don't mojo but I assume this just means I can achieve same levels of ext %.
> 
> Need to get a mojo...


I think just need to step back. I think my problem is my distribution issues aren't sorted and the VST is amplifying this to the point of producing a worse shot. I don't like to jump in and buy new equipment until I'm sure, but I do think i need a convex tamper. I'm getting dead spots in the middle which leads to multiple streams. I'm trying to prevent this with finger distribution but i don't think my technique is consistent. I also get a bias towards the front which I think is a combination of the SJ distribution and tamp. I have learnt to prevent this though.


----------



## CallumT (Aug 23, 2013)

Use a flat tamper, convex tampers just mask issues in the prepping. Sizing helps reduce leaking around the puck which is really obvious if your bottomless.

Consistent dose of appropriate size basket your using (pucks will tell you how much to dose eases overly wet - too little / massive indentation - too much)

Groom to sides , nutate, polish and pull.


----------



## CallumT (Aug 23, 2013)

Also try not to tap or shake the basket to compact the grinds, it'll make nutation harder and tamping feel weird.


----------



## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

CallumT said:


> Use a flat tamper, convex tampers just mask issues in the prepping. Sizing helps reduce leaking around the puck which is really obvious if your bottomless.
> 
> Consistent dose of appropriate size basket your using (pucks will tell you how much to dose eases overly wet - too little / massive indentation - too much)
> 
> Groom to sides , nutate, polish and pull.


Thanks callum good to hear the other perspective. I do have a 58.4mm tamper which in theory should take out the sizing issues. I have my doubts as to how well it actually fits though because I think it could be tighter. Having not had a more expensive tamper though I can't tell


----------



## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

CallumT said:


> Also try not to tap or shake the basket to compact the grinds, it'll make nutation harder and tamping feel weird.


I was told recently not to nutate with a flat based tamper (see videos thread) is there co census on this? I never tap or shake


----------



## CallumT (Aug 23, 2013)

58.4mm is fairly tight in VST , still occasionally have to use my Chris King tamper (58mm) flat in a VST and seems ok; nutation usually ensures I get a decent edge packing / seal.

And the thing with nutation a sized flat is that it's hard to get it to physically drift and move in the basket. Bring on the days of the oncoming TORR Trap flat


----------

