# Grinders with big conical burrs



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Just trying to get a feel for options.

I'm liking what I'm getting from the Pharos' but thinking that I would like a powered version that is not too expensive. So the question is what should I be looking for that has 68mm or larger conical burrs, is on demand (or at any rate without a mechanical doser), and is not too huge overall? Don't have a problem with second hand and the cheaper the better.

I know about the Eureka MDL conical and the price of these is right but it's a doser. Maybe it could be modified? But I'd rather find something that doesn't need modding if I can.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

The problem as far as I have read with big conics is retention. They just arent suited to home use due to holding on to several grams of grounds.

I think dfk is you man to verify or rubbish that statement tho, he was on a bit of a mission to find the ideal at home conical I think.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dylan said:


> The problem as far as I have read with big conics is retention. They just arent suited to home use due to holding on to several grams of grounds.
> 
> I think dfk is you man to verify or rubbish that statement tho, he was on a bit of a mission to find the ideal at home conical I think.


Yes, retention is a problem....but there are ways to reduce/eliminate it, depending on grinder. However, it's fair to say that none of them can be run with a significant amount of beans in the hopper (e.g. not single dosed) and not suffer from massive retention in the order of 20g+. OPurging if used with a full hopper would need to be in the region of 30-40g to get to fresh coffee.

If you want to eliminate retention, the first stop on the road to doing so, is single dosing.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Xpenno has had some success modding his k10 barista to single dose and reduce retention ( although it still exists ) . I'll drop him a message and see if we can get him to share his experiences too.


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Retention is nowhere near that high - its probably less than a double dose with a full hopper.

You pays your money and takes your choice - but I prefer the convenience of an on demand conical over the thwacking of a doser even given the slight retention hit, which doesn't bother me (I just drink it!)


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

MrShades said:


> Retention is nowhere near that high - its probably less than a double dose with a full hopper.


General consensus is it's more than a dose worth...


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I have compak k10 Doser model that I modified to lower the grind retention which it has done very well. As with most of the big burr grinders there will always be some retention but I'm currently working around 0.2 to 0.5g retained. I'll always flush a bit through at the start of the day but then I do this with my ek43 as well. This just removes any stale grinds from the cavities in the burr chamber and underneath it where the sweeper arms are.

The mods that I did remove as much resistance as possible from the grinds leaving the lower chamber. This involved removing a step in the plastic chute as well as adding a slope into the Doser. I also increased the access to the exit chute to allow for easy sweeping.

The K10 doser models are easy to mod for low retention but from what I've seen of the big mazzers they would be much harder.

If you are in the area then you are than welcome to come and take a look at what I've done.


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

jeebsy said:


> General consensus is it's more than a dose worth...


It's not 20g+ and absolutely not 30-40g

... and that's from my personal experience of my K10 (and accept that other makes/models may differ) rather than hearsay.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> I have compak k10 Doser model that I modified to lower the grind retention which it has done very well. As with most of the big burr grinders there will always be some retention but I'm currently working around 0.2 to 0.5g retained. I'll always flush a bit through at the start of the day but then I do this with my ek43 as well. This just removes any stale grinds from the cavities in the burr chamber and underneath it where the sweeper arms are.
> 
> The mods that I did remove as much resistance as possible from the grinds leaving the lower chamber. This involved removing a step in the plastic chute as well as adding a slope into the Doser. I also increased the access to the exit chute to allow for easy sweeping.
> 
> ...


Is that retention measured by dose in and out or from measured from a clean of burrs and carrier and then first dose in ?


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Coffeechap has talked about not seeing a change in grind until the second shot on his big Mazzers


----------



## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Got a kony and Retention is proving to be real pain especially when dialling in, but when it gets going coffee is soo much better than on major, guess it's swings and roundabouts,

thinking of saving it for just weekends, when I can have more than a couple off cups, actually thinking the same about l1, seems a bit of waist heating up all that water after work,

Thinking of trying a pavoni and hausgrind for weeknights, (if it ever turns up)


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The hausgrind won't be a patch on any of the grinders you have or have had for espresso ....


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Is that retention measured by dose in and out or from measured from a clean of burrs and carrier and then first dose in ?


From what I cleaned out of it I can say that part of the first dose will be retained. However, this was no different to the Royal and the EK or any other big grinder that I've owned be it flat or conical. There are nooks and crannies that need to be filled by that first dose, hence the small purge at the start of each day using it, but I'm confident that once these gaps are filled up, what I put in is what I get out (within the parameters mentioned previously)

The K10 is a different beast to the likes of the Robur, their exit path is slightly obscured meaning that lots of ground coffee will be retained under the burrs in the sweeping chamber. I think if you are dismantling and cleaning your grinder to that level before each shot then you are

a. in for a bad time

b. in need of a new hobby


----------



## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Dam boots

thought I'd solved all my espresso woes









problem is the ultimate home (electric )grinder hasn't been made yet,

Guess coffee is a science, and as with any science you solve one problem you create 10 more

QUOTE=Mrboots2u;227246]The hausgrind won't be a patch on any of the grinders you have or have had for espresso ....


----------



## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> The K10 is a different beast to the likes of the Robur, their exit path is slightly obscured meaning that lots of ground coffee will be retained under the burrs in the sweeping chamber. I think if you are dismantling and cleaning your grinder to that level before each shot then you are
> 
> a. in for a bad time
> 
> b. in need of a new hobby


true didn't realize how big the chamber under the burrs was until owning one,

one plus for the kony over major is the flow rate stays pretty much the same as the hopper empties

the major requires tighting up quite a lot, so guess the augers work, even if they do add more to retension.

Would be interesting to see what the extraction does though, but don't own a refactor meter


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Orangertange said:


> true didn't realize how big the chamber under the burrs was until owning one,
> 
> one plus for the kony over major is the flow rate stays pretty much the same as the hopper empties
> 
> ...


Never played with the Kony but I guess it would be a similar design to the Robur. At the end of the day all of these machines are designed to be used in the commercial world and there is little doubt that they do that bloody well









I actually weigh my beans down with a mental spice pot as I am single dosing, seem to get really consistent results still.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Orangertange said:


> true didn't realize how big the chamber under the burrs was until owning one,
> 
> one plus for the kony over major is the flow rate stays pretty much the same as the hopper empties
> 
> ...


Box up the kony and send it to me

I'll refract it for you


----------



## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

I single dose my kony-e, and get approx 7-8g of retention per shot.

So for an 18g shot, I will load up 26g of beans.

I'll purge the first approx 3g, and I tend to do a bit of RDT on it too, which seems to help marginally.

Although it's far from ideal, I don't see 8g as too bad to be honest.

It certainly isn't the 20g that's being talked about!

Single dosing works fine, providing you weigh down the beans to prevent popcorning..


----------



## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

I'm using a 1kg calbration weight too fits perfectly down the collor, but don't like too much faffing else what's the point of having on demand, think I may just dial in the major for weekdays with some (cheap) italian job, save the so for weekends


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MrShades said:


> It's not 20g+ and absolutely not 30-40g
> 
> ... and that's from my personal experience of my K10 (and accept that other makes/models may differ) rather than hearsay.


Did you misread what I wrote, I never said retention was 30-40g? and remember with a hopper full of beans, it comes out as fast as it goes in....so retention has to logically be a full burr chamber. open the burr chamber weigh what's there after grinding out a dose using a hopper that has beans in it (NOT single dosing) and isn't emptied for each dose. I would be surprised if you get less than 20g. The E92 has a fairly small burr chamber for the size of burrs and that retains nearly 25g. In America, I see E92 owners talking about 5-6g retention on their E92, but that's not what I measure (with beans in the hopper and NOT single dosing). You tell them it's 25g when not single dosing and they won't have it either? Of course it's possible my grinder is unique among E92s, but I don't think so.

*Below is the E92, the groove in the coffee and in the sweep arms is for the top burr to sit. There are 4 sweep arms, many have only 3, which gives even more room for Coffee. This is the space for a 71mm conical burr set and it won't be much different for other conicals, as they all grind so fast, you need a minimum space (around and below the burrs) to prevent the coffee impacting and adding resistance to the sweep arms or not grinding properly. I'll stress again the Ceado is about low to average in space around the burrs for a large conical grinder. There is 23.3g in the scales, but I would expect there is still around 1.7g left in the grinder, I couldn't get out.*

None of the coffee weighed was from the precrush zone, it had all been through the burrs. I took great care to ensure that all coffee in the crush zone had been ground/removed, but without the effect of the grinder being empty and sweeping coffee from the burr chamber, as happens with single dosing. So it was exactly the same as having a completely full hopper that still had beans in it after grinding. This is a little easier on the E92, due to it's very low rotational speed.









As for grinding out 30-40g to get to fresh coffee......I tested with 2 different roast level coffees and it was pretty much 40g before it was all the next coffee (e.g. fresh coffee). This was borne out by grind adjustments needing 2 double shots before it settles down to a consistent pour time (for weight of shot) by the 3rd double. The also the best tasting shot (after say an hour), was always the 3rd double shot and this was the one that always had the lowest pour time for weight of shot..

Of course, single dose and it's a different matter, if certain techniques are used to get as much of the coffee out as possible.....running with a hopper full of beans, only for the Cafes I'm afraid. Big conicals that don't suffer from retention, something like the HG1 I guess....Popeye, come home all is forgiven.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The robur hoods at least 25 grams in my experience, the k10 much less probably due to the burr size.


----------



## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Think the retension on the kony, with beans in hopper and no sweeping is around the 20g, even if dailed in some days the temp/humidity is different so needs tweeking, so recon it's at least 40g before the the good stuff starts flowing, a bit more to get the god shot


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

I'm beginning to think I should stick with manuals! Maybe the HG1 beckons... There seems to be an awful lot of faffing about with the powered grinders. (Maybe apart from the M3 and the new German one)

I can grind 18g in one of the Pharos' in about 30 seconds with minimal retention and F.A.T. Starting to think I'm well off.


----------



## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Haha Not a lot of faff compared to the Pharos (if you can put up retention)


----------



## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Pharos is awesome!


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Don't like the retention and, as I said, faff with the Pharos is minimal. (At least with the VoodooDaddy modified one.) I do have to tap the stock one fairly vigorously to achieve the same results but no big deal. No brushing out, no endless doser thwacking and no clean up on a daily basis.


----------



## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> The robur hoods at least 25 grams in my experience, the k10 much less probably due to the burr size.


Dave does the 3mm burr difference between them affect retention that much?


----------



## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Rob666 said:


> Don't like the retention and, as I said, faff with the Pharos is minimal. (At least with the VoodooDaddy modified one.) I do have to tap the stock one fairly vigorously to achieve the same results but no big deal. No brushing out, no endless doser thwacking and no clean up on a daily basis.


Sorry don't know the voodoo daddy mod, but this looks like faff to me






thwacking and lens hood is a lot less painfully, actually miss it

but once you've got rid of stales in the on demand It's pretty easy/ maybe to easy, end up having a coffee every time it walk past


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

charris said:


> Dave does the 3mm burr difference between them affect retention that much?


The K10 and Robur burrs are essentially the same size.

The external sizes are quoted as being 68mm and 71mm, but interior grinding surfaces are the same size.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

charris said:


> Dave does the 3mm burr difference between them affect retention that much?


There is more room within the chamber of the robur compared yo the k10


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

That may be one of the most boring videos of all time! This guy obviously has more time than sense. And he grinds ridiculously slowly. It really isn't like that even with the stock Pharos! The VoodooDaddy modded one grinds into a stainless container. One quick knock to get the grinds off the lower bearing holder and that's it. Retention is in tenths of a gram.


----------



## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

Orangertange said:


> Sorry don't know the voodoo daddy mod, but this looks like faff to me


That is faff! I just ground, put a cup under the exit chute and gave one shake and I was done.

Either that is an earlier model or some ott effort to remove the last bits.


----------



## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Haha Indeed, can't say I watched it all, but did put me off,

Mmm how much is the voodoo daddy mod?


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

I can't answer that because I bought mine already modded. Wintoid may be able to enlighten you.


----------



## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Cheers,

just out off interest has anyone ever modding a big mazzer ,using the cooling fan to blow the chamber out? Maybe by drilling a hole or something)

Would make sence as it's in there anyway, (probably not doing a lot if low dosing)


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Interesting idea but I have my doubts. Beginning to think that a Mythos is the way to go. (If you can find one at the right price.) Most of the advantages of a big conical with low retention. And none of the low power and other issues of an M3.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Rob666 said:


> Interesting idea but I have my doubts. Beginning to think that a Mythos is the way to go. (If you can find one at the right price.) Most of the advantages of a big conical with low retention. And none of the low power and other issues of an M3.


Out of interest what advantages do you think the mythos will share with a conical that another big flat will or wont ?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mythos burrs are flat but mounted at 45 degrees, so will affect the way the coffee is ejected. There has to be a reason that the delivery into the pf is so perfect!


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

@ MrBoots Not that it's shared with most big conicals apart from the M3 but mostly the lack of retention due to the clearer path and angled burrs. So far as I can see most of the big flats and conicals share the same disadvantages for home use unless modified. Possible exception being the EK but that's way too expensive for me and a bit odd. I'd love to find a powered grinder with the some of the same characteristics of the Pharos plus a few advantages. I.e. the same big conical burrs, very low retention but powered and grinding directly into the basket.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Let's hope someone gets a tidaka then!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Have you tried a HG1?

how many drink do you actually make in a go

if only 1 or 2 then the hg1 can cope

15-20- turns for 16-18 grams ( ball park guess )


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Have to say I've thought about a HG ONE.

Mythos is another good option too but a completely different beast.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Have to say I've thought about a HG ONE.
> 
> Mythos is another good option too but a completely different beast.


Get a bloody lever first


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If I had to give up the EK my shortlist would be:

Mythos

K30

Maybe one of the Caedo numbers

Maybe the HG One

A Versalab perhaps


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

@ Mr Boots Generally make two or three at a time. Pharos copes well with this with the current machine. Sounds as if HG1 needs more turns but that need not be a problem. Haven't tried one but I get the idea. Starting to think that the limiting factor at the moment is the machine not the grinder. We drink mostly flat whites or cappuccinos so the temp changes are a problem. The Domobar is quite quick at heating up to steam temp and, if you don't mind wasting water, reasonably quick to return to brew temp but it is a faff and I think a DB would be a LOT easier.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I am quite often tempted to buy and HGone and stick a motor on it, that would be an awesome grinder for sure.


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

@ Jeebsy Interesting list! I like the sound of the Ceados but the price is high. (Ceado or Caedo? I keep seeing both???) HG1 is a definite possibility but pricey. Mythos, if I can find one at the right price, likewise K30. Versalab, not so sure, low power motor and if CC is to be believed not the best company to deal with.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If you were going too swap a k30 for a big conic ( hand powered or otherwise ) then it would need to be for convenience and retention not for in the cup


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Versalab would be a proper 'maybe', the motor does concern me a bit. Would probably be a Mythos or K30


----------



## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Rob666 said:


> @ MrBoots Not that it's shared with most big conicals apart from the M3 but mostly the lack of retention due to the clearer path and angled burrs. So far as I can see most of the big flats and conicals share the same disadvantages for home use unless modified. Possible exception being the EK but that's way too expensive for me and a bit odd. I'd love to find a powered grinder with the some of the same characteristics of the Pharos plus a few advantages. I.e. the same big conical burrs, very low retention but powered and grinding directly into the basket.


the big flats have no where near as much retention as the conicals,

conical s have a large chamber under the burrs with the veins in, flats sweep round the outside, itms

(at least that's what happens in mazzer)


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> If I had to give up the EK my shortlist would be:
> 
> Mythos
> 
> ...


Think you've listed at least 3 of my "would like grinders"


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> I am quite often tempted to buy and HGone and stick a motor on it, that would be an awesome grinder for sure.


Doesn't that make a Versalab?


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The VL is a great grinder, however the new ones seem to have really crap tolerances on the run out, .7 mm is a joke and should be returned, mine is .07 which is quite good for a VL. The mythos is a much better grinder than the k30, the ceados are really promising but not many have them, the HG1 is a great zero retention conic but a bit of a faff as is the Pharos. I don't think there are many grinders I have not owned and to pick a favourite is very difficult. I love the big comics as they seem to compliment the l1 very well, I have a soft spot for the mythos as this was my first big on demand and the delivery in the basket is second to none.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Doesn't that make a Versalab?


Sort of, the hg always felt like a more sturdy beast to me. Looks better also, IMHO.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Doesn't that make a Versalab?


Only if you stick on a set of flat burrs as well.


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Sort of, the hg always felt like a more sturdy beast to me. Looks better also, IMHO.


Yep that makes perfect sense, HG ONE feels a really well built solid grinder. Versalab looks beautiful, but was slightly put off by CC's fault with his.

For the amount of coffees I make a day HG could work for me......or I could get a lever


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> Sort of, the hg always felt like a more sturdy beast to me. Looks better also, IMHO.


HG One is great with medium plus roasts - with lighter ones, really needs to be bolted to a work surface.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Yep that makes perfect sense, HG ONE feels a really well built solid grinder. Versalab looks beautiful, but was slightly put off by CC's fault with his.
> 
> For the amount of coffees I make a day HG could work for me......or I could get a lever


You missed the boat with that cremina clive


----------



## Terranova (Feb 15, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> Sort of, the hg always felt like a more sturdy beast to me.


Maybe the flywheel, not so sure about the parts which really matter and this was only measured at the middle of the shaft.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV1CRDtJ3T4&list=UUyynBy90JgZ7763nIJCTpCQ 




 BTW: Hi CC


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> You missed the boat with that cremina clive










Beautiful machine Dave. I'm struggling to leave the E61 group, 58mm basket.....I'm a closet L1 owner!

........unless I invest in a second machine!!!!!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> I am quite often tempted to buy and HGone and stick a motor on it, that would be an awesome grinder for sure.


But then it would not be an HG One! The boys went Open Source with the motorised idea. It seems a few have done it but it seems a bit like buying a manual car and changing the gearbox to auto!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Versalab would be a proper 'maybe', the motor does concern me a bit. Would probably be a Mythos or K30


If you enjoy the convenience of electricity, it is hard to go to an HG One. Ming more than one shot becomes a chore, or I thought so. the M3 is one of those on paper grinders that ticks so many boxes but in truth, they were not for me. You just cannot beat sticking beans into a hopper, clicking your pf and filling it in 4 seconds! I have had a few Mythos and 3 K30's and to me, the K30 just does not cut the mustard. Well made but in the cup, when I last tried one everything seemed muted!


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Just to add some highly scientific research to the big conical subject:

I've been away with the family for a long weekend, so the K10 Fresh hasn't been used since Friday morning.

On purpose, I didn't purge or anything this morning - and ground a double shot (17.5g). Whacked it through the Duetto and it tasted bloody awful... sink shot.

I then ground a further double shot, and drank it - it tasted lovely.

For the sake of completeness I then ground a further double shot, and drank that to... it also tasted lovely, and on a par (if not the same as) the shot above.

So - my scientific results from this conclude that:

1. The first 17.5g double shot out of a K10F is largely if not entirely retained ground coffee

2. The second 17.5g double shot out of a K10F is largely if not entirely freshly ground coffee

3. The third 17.5g double shot out of a K10F taste the same as the second

As far as I'm concerned, having left the retained coffee to go stale for 4 days highlighted the shot difference (in taste, to my taste buds). When I leave the retained grinds overnight, the first shot the following morning is obviously retained but still drinkable (again, in my view).


----------



## billcoxfam (Jan 8, 2013)

I'd agree with MrShades. My own test this morning involved running some old beans through the K-10 F and stopping when the level of beans reached the top of the burr spindle.

II then ran the machine until all those beans had been ground and then purged the grinding chamber using several puffs of air from a rubber lens hood hopper.

22.5g expelled

If the normal hopper was left on overnight then this must be the absolute maximum weight of ground and partially ground beans in the machine. This would be a mix of which, part would be minimally ground and not as susceptible to oxidisation / staling as those fully ground in the bottom of the grinding chamber. I would estimate 6g - 10g of minimally ground beans in the upper part of the burrs?

I think the lesson for me is to switch to the rubber hopper, single dose and purge if I am not going to use the grinder each day. As it is, I am not too concerned if the first dose each morning is a little stale, it's usually drunk in milk and any staleness is barely noticeable. The joy and convenience of on demand dosing on the K-10 F more than outweighs any retention issues.

If at any time I want to try other beans then single dosing and purging with the £2.99 rubber lens hood hopper is the way to go.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

billcoxfam said:


> I'd agree with MrShades. My own test this morning involved running some old beans through the K-10 F and stopping when the level of beans reached the top of the burr spindle.
> 
> II then ran the machine until all those beans had been ground and then purged the grinding chamber using several puffs of air from a rubber lens hood hopper.
> 
> ...


The only way to know the retention is to open the burr chamber, take the coffee out and weigh it....I would think that with 22.5g expelled you were closer to the retained amount, but who knows unless you open up the chamber, rather than using puffs of air. grind with a hopper with a reasonable amount of beans, stop suck out whats in the precrush zone careully and gently, then open the burr chamber and scoop out that compacted coffee and weigh it.

You will see this (obviously the large beans must have fallen in there) on a K10 PB









If you see this (below), then you ran the grinder till no more beans were in the burrs at all. This is an incorrect method, because some of the coffee in the chamber is lost via the sweep arms pushing it out and no new coffee is there to replace it. The above photo is the situation if you grind with beans always in the hopper and the reason why you need to stop with coffee in the burrs and vacuum out the precrush zone gently.









When new coffee is ground it doesn't immediately purge all the old out and mixes with it for a lot longer than you think.



> 1. The first 17.5g double shot out of a K10F is largely if not entirely retained ground coffee
> 
> 2. The second 17.5g double shot out of a K10F is largely if not entirely freshly ground coffee
> 
> 3. The third 17.5g double shot out of a K10F taste the same as the second


Mr Shades above post could also be

The first 17.5g double shot out of a K10F is a medium to high proportion of retained ground coffee

2. The second 17.5g double shot out of a K10F has some stale coffee not entirely freshly ground coffee

3. The third 17.5g double shot out of a K10F taste the same as the second, because it has some stale coffee.

When I did exactly the same test on the Ceado E92 when reviewing, I found that I needed to go through nearly 40g of coffee before I was completely in the clear so to speak. So it was the 3rd 20g shot that was clear, previously 40g having gone through. I also think the Ceados burr chamber actually has less space for retained grinds, as they can get away with this because of the slower burr speed.


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

DavecUK said:


> ...
> 
> Mr Shades above post could also be
> 
> ...


Yup - you're correct, you could indeed say exactly that.

All I can say is that the first shot was undrinkable, and the next two were both very good and very similar in taste (if not the same). I'd hit my "espresso max" (in the space of 5 mins) at that point, and didn't really fancy trying yet another double in the interests of further verification (as I'd HAVE to drink it all!).


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MrShades said:


> Yup - you're correct, you could indeed say exactly that.
> 
> All I can say is that the first shot was undrinkable, and the next two were both very good and very similar in taste (if not the same). I'd hit my "espresso max" (in the space of 5 mins) at that point, and didn't really fancy trying yet another double in the interests of further verification (as I'd HAVE to drink it all!).


The only way, is to open up the burr chamber and weigh what's in there...anything else is just a guess.


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

I appreciate that Dave - but I'm not really interested in grams, I'm just interested in how my coffee tastes - and I'd guess that's the same for most people on here.

If I leave the grinder for circa 12hrs or so then I'll happily drink the first shot. If I leave it for 4 days then I won't, but will drink the second one.

Simples!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MrShades said:


> I appreciate that Dave - but I'm not really interested in grams, I'm just interested in how my coffee tastes - and I'd guess that's the same for most people on here.
> 
> If I leave the grinder for circa 12hrs or so then I'll happily drink the first shot. If I leave it for 4 days then I won't, but will drink the second one.
> 
> Simples!


Sort of defeats the object of buying a high retention grinder, you could have spent less on one with less retention and got better taste

Simples!


----------



## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> Sort of defeats the object of buying a high retention grinder, you could have spent less on one with less retention and got better taste
> 
> Simples!


Dave, is there any big conical though that has less retention?


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

If you just consider the 1st shot of the day then yes, perhaps a Mythos would be better or at least equally as tasty... but 2nd shot onwards I'm confident that the K10 wins comfortably.

I wouldn't be parted from my K10 Fresh for anything else, period.


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

charris said:


> Dave, is there any big conical though that has less retention?


Not if you want the burrs powered by an electric motor, or fancy a VL (conical / flat hybrid)


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Gravity feed without any weight of beans works well in the Pharos and, at least with the VoodooDaddy modified version retention is minimal. (Less than a gram.) Yet the Pharos uses commercial conical burrs. So, how come the same burrs in a powered grinder seem to need a weight of beans above the burrs and have massive retention? Is it to do with the speed the burrs are turning?

The German device (CB1) seems somewhat over engineered to me and too big. I'm not convinced by the Versalab either.

There has to be a more elegant answer!


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

What do the Germans know about engineering eh?


----------



## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

Rob666 said:


> There has to be a more elegant answer!


HG1, DSC's ZR71 and perhaps the monolith (iirc) I've seen on HB are all elegant, although only 1 is available for purchase.

Most conicals have grind chambers, but Pharos, HG1 and the others above drop directly down from the burrs. Don't know the answer re weight of beans.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Southpaw said:


> DSC's ZR71 ...are all elegant,


The bits we've seen!


----------



## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Rob666 said:


> The German device (CB1) seems somewhat over engineered to me and too big. I'm not convinced by the Versalab either.
> 
> There has to be a more elegant answer!


It has been my experience in various product markets that over engineering is the best thing that can happen. Any performance car e.g porsche, even ferrari, but even normal cars are, any electronic product with long warranty, even everyday household devices like dishwashers for example Miele are extremely over engineered.

Of course over engineered means expensive but as the famous quote: I am too poor to afford cheap stuff.


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Just been doing some research - thanks to Southpaw. The Monolith is almost exactly what I'm looking for! Hefty geared motor driving big conical burrs with an offset coned funnel at the delivery end for good distribution. Only snag I can see is the height. In an ideal world the motor would be mounted parallel to the grinder stack and drive it via a couple of gears or even a belt if you must.


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

@ charris as the owner of a current Miele dishwasher I can only comment that there are some areas that could do with a bit more over engineering! Like return pipes with inferior seals that fail and are not replaceable resulting in a £180 bill to replace the entire pipe!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Rob666 said:


> Just been doing some research - thanks to Southpaw. The Monolith is almost exactly what I'm looking for! Hefty geared motor driving big conical burrs with an offset coned funnel at the delivery end for good distribution. Only snag I can see is the height. In an ideal world the motor would be mounted parallel to the grinder stack and drive it via a couple of gears or even a belt if you must.


Only snag Is he doesn't actually make them to sell


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

@ MrBoots Exactly! Hmmm...


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The thing is about retention, it does not mean a thing, unless it annoys you. I have had many chats with DaveC about this, and tbh, I end up thinking that if retention does not bother you, then to hell with it. Dave is a perfectionist and I am not! I make a coffee, if it is crap I bin it, if it is not, I drink it. Simple as that. All grinders, well nearly all grinders, have retention. There are ways around it for certain.

The K10 was greta. I did not care about the retention, in terms of taste, but, you pull a shot, make an adjustment, then have to pull 2 shots before you get the effect. Ok, come down to one bean type as I did, but you still get this problem whenever you make an adjustment.

I think too many people get hung up on coffee irrelevances........retention is here to stay so get over it!

And the Mythos produces a completely different taste profile to a K10, so you cannot possibly compare the shots I am afraid


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

My god I agree with dfk.........

Either than or I'm having a 20 year old shroom flashback


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> The thing is about retention, it does not mean a thing, unless it annoys you. I have had many chats with DaveC about this, and tbh, I end up thinking that if retention does not bother you, then to hell with it. Dave is a perfectionist and I am not! I make a coffee, if it is crap I bin it, if it is not, I drink it. Simple as that. All grinders, well nearly all grinders, have retention. There are ways around it for certain.
> 
> The K10 was greta. I did not care about the retention, in terms of taste, but, you pull a shot, make an adjustment, then have to pull 2 shots before you get the effect. Ok, come down to one bean type as I did, but you still get this problem whenever you make an adjustment.
> 
> ...


With you all the way!


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

@ Dave K OK I can accept all of that. I like the results from big conical burrs but I also hate retention. Not because of the one potentially wasted shot first thing but the multiple ones when dialling in. Hence beginning this thread in the first place. This is just an engineering problem waiting to be solved. It looks as though one guy has already cracked it, it's just not available to buy.

Would love to compare side by side shots from the same beans ground in a Mythos and a Compak. How do they differ?


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

As a serial bean changer I could live with one shot of retention but more than that and it becomes tricky to get much value out a 250g bag.


----------



## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

So maybe this new CB1 thing which is based on the VL delivery system (i.e. no retention) and a more powerful motor but with titan level conical burrs could be a breakthrough. Maybe, maybe....


----------



## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

As for no retention grinders, at the Mythos level let's not forget the EK43 and the Compak R line. And of course the Versalab (hopefully a good one or a Frank one)







.


----------



## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> As a serial bean changer


I think deep inside we are all serial bean changers







. Can you really commit to a single woman, a single taste forever? It is the same thing...


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rob666 said:


> @ Dave K OK I can accept all of that. I like the results from big conical burrs but I also hate retention. Not because of the one potentially wasted shot first thing but the multiple ones when dialling in. Hence beginning this thread in the first place. This is just an engineering problem waiting to be solved. It looks as though one guy has already cracked it, it's just not available to buy.
> 
> Would love to compare side by side shots from the same beans ground in a Mythos and a Compak. How do they differ?


Rob, they differ because a flat burr produces a different flavour to a conical. If you imagine a single shaft of light entering a prism, a flat might for arguments sake, break that up into 5 different coloured shafts leaving the prism, but, a good conical will have substantially more shades leaving....it lets you identify more flavours individually, rather than a flat which often does not break the individual taste down and just gives an overall impression,


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Even different designs or geometry of flat burss can add different nuances to the cup.

Then there how those burrs are alignied....

They tastes burrs deliver are subjective some prefer big flats , some big conicals.

I prefer the taste that really big flat burrs deliver.

Doesn't make it better, just makes it my preference.

The taste the different burrs deliver will for some be no different, for some more balanced as a big flat or a conical.

All down to the person tasting it.....


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

charris said:


> As for no retention grinders, at the Mythos level let's not forget the EK43 and the Compak R line


I don't think you can really say the R120 and EK43 are Mythos level.


----------



## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> I don't think you can really say the R120 and EK43 are Mythos level.


Agreed, I just meant top level flat burr grinders with almost no retention.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

charris said:


> Agreed, I just meant top level flat burr grinders with almost no retention.


I thought the Mythos did have retention? Maybe not as much as Robur but potentially significant amounts? When I read the specs of the Mythos One I thought that this was one of things that they tried to reduce. Could be wrong as I've never owned one


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Rob, they differ because a flat burr produces a different flavour to a conical. If you imagine a single shaft of light entering a prism, a flat might for arguments sake, break that up into 5 different coloured shafts leaving the prism, but, a good conical will have substantially more shades leaving....it lets you identify more flavours individually, rather than a flat which often does not break the individual taste down and just gives an overall impression,


Unless it's an EK43.


----------



## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> As a serial bean changer I could live with one shot of retention but more than that and it becomes tricky to get much value out a 250g bag.


Yep me to, but I usually buy kg at time or a least 500g, find I'm only just getting the optimum outa any bean at the 200g mark, (even as pourover)

so changing every 250 would be torture


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

As always on this forum I've learned a lot on this thread. Many thanks to all. I've had suspicions confirmed and prejudices/preferences reinforced.

I.e. since I like what I'm tasting from big conical burrs (albeit in a hand grinder) then that is probably the way to go with a powered one. The retention question remains.

Perhaps I'll just have to be patient or try an MDL conic. The budget doesn't stretch to one of the high end grinders even second hand. (Unless I get very lucky!)

Meanwhile, I'll carry on doing up the flat burr MDL and give it a try.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> I thought the Mythos did have retention? Maybe not as much as Robur but potentially significant amounts? When I read the specs of the Mythos One I thought that this was one of things that they tried to reduce. Could be wrong as I've never owned one


It's low retention, one of the big plus points. Burrs at at 45 degrees so it spits almost everything out


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> It's low retention, one of the big plus points. Burrs at at 45 degrees so it spits almost everything out


Thanks for the clarification


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Rob, they differ because a flat burr produces a different flavour to a conical. If you imagine a single shaft of light entering a prism, a flat might for arguments sake, break that up into 5 different coloured shafts leaving the prism, but, a good conical will have substantially more shades leaving....it lets you identify more flavours individually, rather than a flat which often does not break the individual taste down and just gives an overall impression,


So David, if I'm understanding your theory right, the wider the range of particle sizes, the more flavours available? Following this to it's logical conclusion, wouldn't a whirly blade grinder be best with roughly chopped beans & powder in the same dose, or wrap your beans in a tea towel & whack them with a hammer? Shouldn't then a Porlex, or Skerton be knocking commercial burr grinders into a cocked hat?

Also, if the "flavours" available are actually more a result of defects (underextraction of large particles & overextraction of smaller particles) are these representative the "flavour" of the coffee itself, or masking the coffee's flavour through unevenness?


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

MWJB said:


> So David, if I'm understanding your theory right, the wider the range of particle sizes, the more flavours available? Following this to it's logical conclusion, wouldn't a whirly blade grinder be best with roughly chopped beans & powder in the same dose, or wrap your beans in a tea towel & whack them with a hammer? Shouldn't then a Porlex, or Skerton be knocking commercial burr grinders into a cocked hat?
> 
> Also, if the "flavours" available are actually more a result of defects (underextraction of large particles & overextraction of smaller particles) are these representative the "flavour" of the coffee itself, or masking the coffee's flavour through unevenness?


There is some truth in what dfk says, although it may be a simplification. The EK is known for its 'clarity' (which some dont enjoy) because of the even-ness of the particle sizes. A greater variation means a greater variation in the cup, the 'balance' is whats important.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Does that mean other coffee is " vague " then?

Confused


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> So David, if I'm understanding your theory right, the wider the range of particle sizes, the more flavours available? Following this to it's logical conclusion, wouldn't a whirly blade grinder be best with roughly chopped beans & powder in the same dose, or wrap your beans in a tea towel & whack them with a hammer? Shouldn't then a Porlex, or Skerton be knocking commercial burr grinders into a cocked hat?
> 
> Also, if the "flavours" available are actually more a result of defects (underextraction of large particles & overextraction of smaller particles) are these representative the "flavour" of the coffee itself, or masking the coffee's flavour through unevenness?


Mark, I merely explained in a picture drawing sort of way, a method of someone who does not understand flat v conical having an idea. Having owned many of both, the spectrum explanation is a very good one, toe explain why the same bean ground the same way etc etc produces a markedly different flavour or range of flavours. it is not a theory although you are quite welcome to dissect it and draw your own conclusions, if you wish.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Does that mean other coffee is " vague " then?
> 
> Confused


I think some of the metaphors being used are a little confusing at the moment


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Has anyone ever tried a mixed roast? So a 'balance' or dark and light flavours.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dylan said:


> Has anyone ever tried a mixed roast? So a 'balance' or dark and light flavours.


How would that extract evenly then? Or be dialled in

If your suggesting two or more beans at radical ends of the roasting spectrum?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> How would that extract evenly then? Or be dialled in
> 
> If your suggesting two or more beans at radical ends of the roasting spectrum?


Or are you just suggesting a medium roast .

Can you expand please


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dylan said:


> There is some truth in what dfk says, although it may be a simplification. The EK is known for its 'clarity' (which some dont enjoy) because of the even-ness of the particle sizes. A greater variation means a greater variation in the cup, the 'balance' is whats important.


But the EK does something, so far, recognised as unique & not necessarily an attribute of "flat burrs" universally. Any grinder that's letting you hit a nominal yield, with a good flavour must be hitting at least a satisfactory balance. Greater variation of extraction in the cup doesn't strike me as any more balanced...balance suggests equilibrium to me, so (off the top of my head for illustration purposes) an extraction that was say +/- 6% would be balanced at a desirable yield, as would a +/- 3%.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> But the EK does something, so far, recognised as unique & not necessarily an attribute of "flat burrs" universally. Any grinder that's letting you hit a nominal yield, with a good flavour must be hitting at least a satisfactory balance. Greater variation of extraction in the cup doesn't strike me as any more balanced...balance suggests equilibrium to me, so (off the top of my head for illustration purposes) an extraction that was say +/- 6% would be balanced at a desirable yield, as would a +/- 3%.


But you would expect this from a grinder with such a huge price tag. come down a few notches and compare say a Eureka MDL conical to an SJ......at £300


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Or are you just suggesting a medium roast .
> 
> Can you expand please


Fleeting thought that I hadn't put too much into. I did think that the first hurdle would be an extraction that wasn't all over the place, but generally has anyone experimented with the idea, or is it just a non starter?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> But you would expect this from a grinder with such a huge price tag. come down a few notches and compare say a Eureka MDL conical to an SJ......at £300


I'm not sure that price specifically has anything to do with it...there are other grinders in that range, not as yet identified as doing the same thing.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Dylan said:


> Fleeting thought that I hadn't put too much into.


That's unlike you


----------

