# Lelit Bianca



## ncrc51

I'm interested in what Forum members think of this machine. I know very little about Lelit's other products. It appears that the Bianca may be available in some markets now and in the U.S. perhaps in July. The price quoted by 1st Line is pretty competitive with other double boiler machines.


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## Stanic

little info on page 38 here

the water tank is external

and a video





 but I'm not sure if this is a production version

for sale in Europe here (with more info)

looks nice for sure


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## ncrc51

Thanks! I've found a bit of information here and a few short videos on the web. I wonder how the quality compares with similarly priced double boiler machines, because it does appear to offer additional features compared with most of the competition. Here's a link to the U.S. site that will carry it https://www.1st-line.com/buy/lelit-pl162t-bianca-espresso-machine/


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## Stanic

as mentioned in the other thread, availability of the pressure regulation paddle to mount into existing E61 groups would be fantastic







let's wait and see


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## DavecUK

ncrc51 said:


> Thanks! I've found a bit of information here and a few short videos on the web. I wonder how the quality compares with similarly priced double boiler machines, because it does appear to offer additional features compared with most of the competition. Here's a link to the U.S. site that will carry it https://www.1st-line.com/buy/lelit-pl162t-bianca-espresso-machine/


I did a fairly extensive engineering review on it about 4 or 5 weeks ago now. gave the results back to BB and Lelit. It had some changes I wanted them to make and I think....they delayed launch a bit while they made them. Yeah it's an interesting machine and I am sure people will have a lot of fun experimenting with the paddle. One feature I thought was very innovative was the ability to place the external water tank at the back or on either side of the machine.

P.S. I also came up with a nice set of recommended PID parameters for it.....which I believe Lelit are having programmed as the factory settings....at least that's what they said.


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## kennyboy993

Hats off to lelit for innovating - there's life in the old e61 yet!


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## DavecUK

If someone ever said the E61 was built for dual boilers, they would of course be wrong factually but right in principle. A very nice piece of timeless design.


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## DavecUK

Oh I should have said I am actually buying the prototype to add to my collection. I like to have machines that are in some way "special". I would have kept the Bellman as well if it wasn't so flipping expensive.



*Duetto 0001* (first preproduction and a machine I had a huge involvement with creating)


*Vesuvius (just special in every way, including the guy who built it for me). It's also my "every day carry" so to speak. I don't believe there will ever be another machine quite like it*

Lelit Bianca (pure left field innovation and a prototype, one of a kind and I just kinda Liked it, just something about it)

Melitta Varianza Best BTC I ever used for the Money and better than many £1200 BTC machines, certainly better than the Market leader! When I'm feeling Lazy in the summmer...out it comes. Constant flow of coffee to the Patio.


*I am also hoping to add the damaged little Minima to this list*. It's again VERY special, it's been mistreated by the couriers and I really don't think will stand a second journey and needs a good loving home.

It's ridiculous isn't it, other people collect stamps n stuff and I collect coffee machines. I sort of think I should have never sold the R58, and my Quickmill Verona, but there you go, people were in need and the problem with collecting coffee machines....you can only have so many!

Oh and I would have 2 bloody Niche grinders If I could...one White and one Black!!


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## ncrc51

Dave, at what point could you share your assessment of the Bianca. I rather assume the report is "eyes only" for Lelit and BB(?) but your thoughts on the design and construction vs. other machines would by great to see.


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## MildredM

DavecUK said:


> Oh I should have said I am actually buying the prototype to add to my collection. I like to have machines that are in some way "special". I would have kept the Bellman as well if it wasn't so flipping expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> *Duetto 0001* (first preproduction and a machine I had a huge involvement with creating)
> 
> 
> *Vesuvius (just special in every way, including the guy who built it for me). It's also my "every day carry" so to speak. I don't believe there will ever be another machine quite like it*
> 
> Lelit Bianca (pure left field innovation and a prototype, one of a kind and I just kinda Liked it, just something about it)
> 
> Melitta Varianza Best BTC I ever used for the Money and better than many £1200 BTC machines, certainly better than the Market leader! When I'm feeling Lazy in the summmer...out it comes. Constant flow of coffee to the Patio.
> 
> 
> *I am also hoping to add the damaged little Minima to this list*. It's again VERY special, it's been mistreated by the couriers and I really don't think will stand a second journey and needs a good loving home.
> 
> It's ridiculous isn't it, other people collect stamps n stuff and I collect coffee machines. I sort of think I should have never sold the R58, and my Quickmill Verona, but there you go, people were in need and the problem with collecting coffee machines....you can only have so many!
> 
> Oh and I would have 2 bloody Niche grinders If I could...one White and one Black!!


You sound like me, kind of, although it's rescuing guinea pigs in need of a good home here. The one 'benefit' (if that's what it is) is that they eventually die and you can then fit another one then another and another . . .


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## DavecUK

ncrc51 said:


> Dave, at what point could you share your assessment of the Bianca. I rather assume the report is "eyes only" for Lelit and BB(?) but your thoughts on the design and construction vs. other machines would by great to see.


The report I cannot share, but there will be a proper review to come as soon as the revised machines are sent to BB and then another is sent on to me.

I like Lelit machines and I like the companies attitude. They are a little left field innovative, it's good but does result in increased complexity. Internal quality is good and external quality although not the most expensive they make very good use of what they have. The accessories, portafilters etc.. are nicely accessorised with the logo, havs some unusual designs. They genuinely seem to care about function and the consumer. They are probably not the easiest machines to maintain for the non engineer, and some parts can be hard to reach, however this is common for all makes. The main thing with Lelit is you get a good machine, at a very good price.

*Think of it like cars I suppose, were not talking values here*.


Mercedes, BMW, Audi = LM GS3, Londinium, Speedster etc..

Mondeo, Nissan, Honda etc.. = Rocket izzo Profitec, Lelit general machines

Morgan, Aston Martin, AC = Vesuvis, Lelit Bianca, Minima, Rocket R60V, Decent espresso DE1


It's about brand value, then peas in a pod followed by innovators doing something different.....I hope that helps.


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## ncrc51

Funny and informative is an excellent and rare combination. The car analogy is especially appreciated as we strongly favor BMW's. Love the look of a Morgan or Aston (way above my pay grade regardless) but would not attempt ownership due to fear of maintenance. I should probably land in that middle group of reliable, well engineered and cost effective options - Honda anyone?


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## RoA19

The Bianca has now shown up on Lelit UK's site http://lelit-uk.co.uk/bianca_pl162t.html

£1900 was probably more than I expected it to be, although there are some places online in Europe selling it below 1900 Euros. Hopefully some launch discounts perhaps?

It looks a very nice piece of kit!


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## DavecUK

RoA19 said:


> The Bianca has now shown up on Lelit UK's site http://lelit-uk.co.uk/bianca_pl162t.html
> 
> £1900 was probably more than I expected it to be, although there are some places online in Europe selling it below 1900 Euros. Hopefully some launch discounts perhaps?
> 
> It looks a very nice piece of kit!


That is not Lelits site to the best of my knowledge, am not even sure if they are authorised resellers.


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## RoA19

Says it's part of Espresso Underground, but calls it Lelit-UK. Bit naughty of them if it's not an official Lelit concern.


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## RoA19

Lelit Bianca is being launched at World of Coffee in Amsterdam on June 21st.


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## Headgoboomboom

I have pre-ordered one from 1st Line here in the states. I live 45 minutes from them and went to see the prototype last week. We made some great shots right off the bat...better than I make at home now.

I had been waiting for the Decent, but this machine and paddle really caught my eye. I think that it will be awesome, and will go nicely with my future Niche Zero!

Can't wait to read Dave's review.


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## DavecUK

Headgoboomboom said:


> I have pre-ordered one from 1st Line here in the states. I live 45 minutes from them and went to see the prototype last week. We made some great shots right off the bat...better than I make at home now.
> 
> I had been waiting for the Decent, but this machine and paddle really caught my eye. I think that it will be awesome, and will go nicely with my future Niche Zero!
> 
> Can't wait to read Dave's review.


I liked it and bought the prototype because I thought it would be a bit of fun and is an unusual machine, I like to collect unusual machines. I think the Movable tank is also an interesting Idea, hopefully they kept that feature.


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## Dylan

RoA19 said:


> Says it's part of Espresso Underground, but calls it Lelit-UK. Bit naughty of them if it's not an official Lelit concern.


One would hope they have permission from Lelit to do so... just calling yourself 'lelit-uk' would be a clear infringement of trademark. Espresso Underground are a generally well regarded company however, so they may well have a deal with Lelit to use their name in such a way.


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## DavecUK

Dylan said:


> One would hope they have permission from Lelit to do so... just calling yourself 'lelit-uk' would be a clear infringement of copyright. Espresso Underground are a generally well regarded company however, so they may well have a deal with Lelit to use their name in such a way.


They don't


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## Dylan

DavecUK said:


> They don't


Well, very bad form then. I imagine they will get a cease and desist from Lelit at some point.


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## Dylan

Just dropped Lelit an email, they said that Espresso Underground are an authorised UK reseller and did not seem at all bothered by their use of their name.


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## DavecUK

Dylan said:


> Just dropped Lelit an email, they said that Espresso Underground are an authorised UK reseller and did not seem at all bothered by their use of their name.


I am pretty sure I had an email stating they were not about 4 months ago, perhaps things have changed (or I was wrong). Looks like people have some choice who to buy from.

To me it matters not.


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## matomoto

Hello, I am a future buyer of the bianca from Spain.

Is the preinfusion system the same as group e61?

I see in the videos a position of preinfusion on and preinfusion off ....






E61 Lelit Bianca

Enviado desde mi BLA-L29 mediante Tapatalk


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## DavecUK

matomoto said:


> Hello, I am a future buyer of the bianca from Spain.
> 
> Is the preinfusion system the same as group e61?
> 
> I see in the videos a position of preinfusion on and preinfusion off ....
> 
> Enviado desde mi BLA-L29 mediante Tapatalk


No the preinfusion system has been disabled (as it should be), so as not to interfere with paddle operation. it has two methods of preinfusion already, one via the paddle and one via electronic control of the pump.


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## matomoto

DavecUK said:


> No the preinfusion system has been disabled (as it should be), so as not to interfere with paddle operation. it has two methods of preinfusion already, one via the paddle and one via electronic control of the pump.


In my lelit mara the e61 was very sweet with the shots, I hope that bianca is still as sweet.

My lelit mara broke down and the supplier for little money offers me a bianca for 15 days ... great doubt ..

Davecuk I'm a great follower of yours, niche zero is coming jajaja

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## RoA19

I'm really looking forward to reading DavecUK's review of the Bianca. Very much a first World problem, but I'm strongly trying to decide between the Bianca, waiting until January for the DE1+ or possibly trying to get a Vesuvius next time there are some trade fair machines available (whenever that may be?). I'm strictly a flat white preference bloke (could change in time of course) so a new machine has to steam milk well in addition to pulling a great shot of espresso. Decisions, decisions. Have I missed any other obvious possible choice of machine?


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## DavecUK

RoA19 said:


> I'm really looking forward to reading DavecUK's review of the Bianca. Very much a first World problem, but I'm strongly trying to decide between the Bianca, waiting until January for the DE1+ or possibly trying to get a Vesuvius next time there are some trade fair machines available (whenever that may be?). I'm strictly a flat white preference bloke (could change in time of course) so a new machine has to steam milk well in addition to pulling a great shot of espresso. Decisions, decisions. Have I missed any other obvious possible choice of machine?


I know Paolo has been away and busy with planning a factory move.....but I do think a few Vesuvius machines from exhibition will be available soon....not sure of the specifications, but I know they won't be black ones, no more black bodywork left. The issue is checking them unpacking them and also an exhibition machine may be complete externally, but not internally if that makes sense. So some of them have to have the rest of the internals added. It allows a cheaper machine to be built for show and the expensive bits added later (but the tax break still applies).


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## matomoto

Enviado desde mi BLA-L29 mediante Tapatalk


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## DavecUK

I'm just going to add a little something to this thread. Lelit have just contacted me, because they think it might have been me (or a few others also mentioned in the e-mail) that leaked a cutaway photo of their prototype E61 group. The point they made was twofold.

1. They are not very happy

2. The group is a prototype and has been subject to change

The machine I reviewed was a prototype and subject to change which is why I respected that and have said very little about it. I would like to see @matomoto respect that and edit to post to remove the photo. I have already edited my reply to remove it....because now I know this is not an officially released photo. If the photo doesn't go, I will alert the mods to it so they can remove.

Thanks

Dave


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## matomoto

DavecUK said:


> I'm just going to add a little something to this thread. Lelit have just contacted me, because they think it might have been me (or a few others also mentioned in the e-mail) that leaked a cutaway photo of their prototype E61 group. The point they made was twofold.
> 
> 1. They are not very happy
> 
> 2. The group is a prototype and has been subject to change
> 
> The machine I reviewed was a prototype and subject to change which is why I respected that and have said very little about it. I would like to see @matomoto respect that and edit to post to remove the photo. I have already edited my reply to remove it....because now I know this is not an officially released photo. If the photo doesn't go, I will alert the mods to it so they can remove.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dave


The photo was obtained from another coffee forum, I never thought that its diffusion was prohibited. My only intention was to share opinions about this machine.

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## DavecUK

matomoto said:


> The photo was obtained from another coffee forum, I never thought that its diffusion was prohibited. My only intention was to share opinions about this machine.
> 
> Enviado desde mi BLA-L29 mediante Tapatalk


I did not not think for one second you were the originator of the photo and assumed you got it from another forum or blog. However I think we are better than that on this forum and thanks for respecting the fact that's its a prototype and not resharing the photo. The original posters were at fault, but at least we don't have to help distribute it.

Thanks again.

P.S. I get a lot of inside information on all sorts of coffee developments in machines, grinders and roasters...which I don't share, but can prove indirectly useful to forum members....so anything that ensures that continues is good.


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## cloughy

Noticed this morning the bianca was on BB website

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-bianca-dual-boiler-paddle-pl162t.html


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## 9719

Wish DavecUK had done the video would then have made it all the way through and not given up after 36secs yes it did take that long before I'd had enough of Mr Drowny


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## RoA19

https://video.buffer.com/v/5b2e795aaffd28da5a1df401

From Lelit's twitter feed at the Amsterdam show this week


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## cloughy

Trigger pulled. I have high hopes the Bianca will cure upgraditus!


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## 9719

cloughy said:


> Trigger pulled. I have high hopes the Bianca will cure upgraditus!


Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## DavecUK

cloughy said:


> Trigger pulled. I have high hopes the Bianca will cure upgraditus!


Why do I waste my time doing reviews, when you guys just buy it? At least I can rest easy in the knowledge that I have not done the user guide for it yet (because I don't have a production model), so you just have the Lelit one and I don't know what, of my feedback, is included in it











********** said:


> Wish DavecUK had done the video would then have made it all the way through and not given up after 36secs yes it did take that long before I'd had enough of Mr Drowny


Really! I always thought my youtube vids were cringe-worthy. I hate watching them back.

1. No production value at all

2. No fancy editing, lighting or music

3. No script

4. One take (usually) unless kids, cat or wife interrupt.

I am amazed and rather sad every time someone subscribes, because they are not going to get the polished coffee whole Latte love with Todd (or whatever his name is) polished production experience that's full of sales bollox.


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## 9719

Really! I always thought my youtube vids were cringe-worthy. I hate watching them back.

1. No production value at all

2. No fancy editing, lighting or music

3. No script

4. One take (usually) unless kids, cat or wife interrupt.

I am amazed and rather sad every time someone subscribes, because they are not going to get the polished coffee whole Latte love with Todd (or whatever his name is) polished production experience that's full of sales bollox.

Exactly, just an honest vid without all the 'bull s**t'

And where's that one on adjusting a grinder to get the perfect extraction you said you'd do


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## cloughy

Didn't need a review @DavecUK, your positive comments in this very thread were enough!


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## jj-x-ray

Looks great.....I still prefer the phenolic look though on these type of machines for some reason instead of wood.

Very much aspirational for me, hope I get to own one or something similar


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## DavecUK

cloughy said:


> Didn't need a review @DavecUK, your positive comments in this very thread were enough!


Well people still keep buying Rocket machines and I won't review those?


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## ashcroc

DavecUK said:


> Why do I waste my time doing reviews, when you guys just buy it? At least I can rest easy in the knowledge that I have not done the user guide for it yet (because I don't have a production model), so you just have the Lelit one and I don't know what, of my feedback, is included in it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really! I always thought my youtube vids were cringe-worthy. I hate watching them back.
> 
> 1. No production value at all
> 
> 2. No fancy editing, lighting or music
> 
> 3. No script
> 
> 4. One take (usually) unless kids, cat or wife interrupt.
> 
> I am amazed and rather sad every time someone subscribes, because they are not going to get the polished coffee whole Latte love with Todd (or whatever his name is) polished production experience that's full of sales bollox.


I think it may be the fact that it's missing the 'sales bollox' that people subscribe. It can be refreshing to see an unbiased review which points out both the good & the bad from time to time.


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## matomoto

Lelit Bianca for everyone !!!
















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## cloughy

Where are those pics lifted from?


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## matomoto

cloughy said:


> Where are those pics lifted from?


Those and many more photos and videos are from the lelit facebook

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## jj-x-ray

Am I the only one who thinks of "RICKKYYYYY!"


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## hotmetal

Byanckahhhh!

___

Eat, drink and be merry


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## jj-x-ray

They should make a paired grinder to go with it and call it the Lelit Ricky



hotmetal said:


> Byanckahhhh!
> 
> ___
> 
> Eat, drink and be merry


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## Stanic

They look awesome


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## hotmetal

jj-x-ray said:


> They should make a paired grinder to go with it and call it the Lelit Ricky


Rancilio already make one don't they? Or is that Rockyyyyy?

___

Eat, drink and be merry


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## DavecUK

hotmetal said:


> Rancilio already make one don't they? Or is that Rockyyyyy?
> 
> ___
> 
> Eat, drink and be merry


Lelit managed to call their grinder the William <sigh>. I did have a look at the grinder...but was not impressed. I am not sure I could even muster up the will to properly use it. When they make one that the end user can open and clean, perhaps I will give it a second look. I do like their higher end espresso machines though.</sigh>


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## Hasi

I sat out the video... man...

"king of materials" was funny though!

I'd mainly be interested to see how geeky and impractical the so-called paddle is in daily use. I'd find myself forgetting to put it back every now and then, subsequently screwing up a charge


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## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> I sat out the video... man...
> 
> "king of materials" was funny though!
> 
> I'd mainly be interested to see how geeky and impractical the so-called paddle is in daily use. I'd find myself forgetting to put it back every now and then, subsequently screwing up a charge


Well you won't if the machine is fully set up the way I recommended. Even if you forget to move the paddle back, the impact will not be so bad.


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## kautivo

DavecUK what model of grinder do you suggest me if i buy Lelit Bianca? i want to find one model with low retention and limited size!

Sorry my english is soso!

Regards from spain!

Thanks you!


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## DavecUK

kautivo said:


> DavecUK what model of grinder do you suggest me if i buy Lelit Bianca? i want to find one model with low retention and limited size!
> 
> Sorry my english is soso!
> 
> Regards from spain!
> 
> Thanks you!


Well low retention and limited size is Niche Zero, Ceado E37S (but you have to use the Ceado with beans in the hopper, you cannot single dose it). Grind quality will be similar, with the Niche just beating the Ceado E37S. Other than that you have the Eureka Mignon/Compak K3, but really not got as low retention, has to have beans in the hopper and won't grind as well as the first two..it's a lot cheaper though. If space is very limited the Niche or Mignon...depending on what you want.


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## ncrc51

Dave, do you know or have a feel for grind retention in the Eureka?


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## cloughy

The mirrored s/s bodies look a work of art!


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## kautivo

how I prefer use it with single dose, i believe my better choice maybe the Niche Zero, also i have read very good comments!

what do you think about buy it by indegogo.com ? Is it a secure shopping?

Thank you very much!



DavecUK said:


> Well low retention and limited size is Niche Zero, Ceado E37S (but you have to use the Ceado with beans in the hopper, you cannot single dose it). Grind quality will be similar, with the Niche just beating the Ceado E37S. Other than that you have the Eureka Mignon/Compak K3, but really not got as low retention, has to have beans in the hopper and won't grind as well as the first two..it's a lot cheaper though. If space is very limited the Niche or Mignon...depending on what you want.


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## Dylan

IGG is not 'secure shopping' - you are 'backing a company' not 'buying a product' - you have no legal protections should something happen to Niche and it goes under before delivering.

That said, in the case of Niche it seems very unlikely, I have little doubt grinder will be delivered but you need to be 100% aware of what the risks are, even if they are small.

If you are in no rush to buy and can afford the retail price of £500 then waiting until they are properly for sale will give you the peace of mind that you will get your grinder, you will also be able to get an idea of what everyone thinks of them before purchasing. I would say you also will get all the consumer protections that go with a retail purchase but if you live abroad they may be limited in one way or another.

If I didn't back at an early stage and wanted to buy a Niche, I would personally now wait until they are released, the saving does not seem worth the sacrifice of legal protections to me. Niche may end up offering a proper warranty to crowd funding backers but have promised nothing yet afaik


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## matomoto

Today arrived





































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## Stanic

nice! can we see a detail of the water tank connection?









how about some long and low pressure pre-infusions?


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## matomoto

Stanic said:


> nice! can we see a detail of the water tank connection?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> how about some long and low pressure pre-infusions?


I'm not home now, practically I could not prove it

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## cloughy

Looks great!


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## kautivo

Incredibleeee!!!


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## matomoto

Stanic if you need something else ....

For now I have canceled the preinfusion. I'm playing with paddle and it's complicated for me, to see if someone with more expertise teaches us something.

Opv 11bar

















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## Stanic

many thanks! yeah I was curious to see especially how they did the water level indicator connection









as for pressure profiling, I would recommend to simulate the lever machine profile for start (low pressure pre-infusion, fast ramp-up to 9 bar, slow decline)


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## DavecUK

My review machine arrived yesterday pm...I have been setting it up today (unfortunately it was damaged a little in transit...long story). So I finally commissioned it this evening. The water tank explanation is something that will make people glaze over...so I plan to do a little video on it....and actually change it over on Video. The pain in my knees is the hardest thing about changing the tank over.

I will also be covering the use of the paddle...because I may have mentioned this before (sure I have), it's not a pressure profiling machine as such....it doesn't really do that...what it does do is give a great deal of flow control during certain parts of the shot. My main focus at the moment though is checking all the prototype recommendations were dealt with when it went to full production. Fortunately I can tell one biggie (pump vibration and noise) has been fixed....It's really...really quiet!


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## eddie57

DavecUK said:


> My review machine arrived yesterday pm...I have been setting it up today (unfortunately it was damaged a little in transit...long story). So I finally commissioned it this evening. The water tank explanation is something that will make people glaze over...so I plan to do a little video on it....and actually change it over on Video. The pain in my knees is the hardest thing about changing the tank over.
> 
> I will also be covering the use of the paddle...because I may have mentioned this before (sure I have), it's not a pressure profiling machine as such....it doesn't really do that...what it does do is give a great deal of flow control during certain parts of the shot. My main focus at the moment though is checking all the prototype recommendations were dealt with when it went to full production. Fortunately I can tell one biggie (pump vibration and noise) has been fixed....It's really...really quiet![/quote
> 
> Looking forward to your review


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## kautivo

ooooh I wait anxious your special review!

Thanks


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## matomoto

As far as my expertise goes, it is not possible to reproduce or I do not achieve the profile curve of a normal e61, since the 1st coffee compaction although the paddle needle has decreased the flow does not manage to break the resistance of the tablet and the pump, let's not forget, keep working as we have it, in my case 9.5 bar.

Sorry, It is possible that so much technicality does not translate correctly into the English language.

I hope that @DavecUK makes a revision of the machine soon, because there are several concepts of the machine that I do not have clear.

At the moment the advantages are for ME:

-Very silent and nothing vibrates

-Thermal stability

-Pid very complete

-Dual boiler!! Power steam!!

Things that I do not like or I still do not know the secret:

-I can not play the profile of e61 lelit mara, which I loved so much

-In general, even using the naked portafilter, I do not get so much cream

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## Stanic

You mean you are not able to modify the pressure with the paddle after you switch the pump on?


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## matomoto

Stanic said:


> You mean you are not able to modify the pressure with the paddle after you switch the pump on?


Not exactly, when I can record a video for you to understand.

Enviado desde mi BLA-L29 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> You mean you are not able to modify the pressure with the paddle after you switch the pump on?


He is just coming to terms with the differences of flow control and a PD pump set to constant 9 or 9.5 bar vs true pressure profiling using a computer, pressure sensor and gear pump. If you understand what's happening or why, it becomes easier to find a routine that works well..It's why this is one of the longer and harder reviews I have to do for BB, plus the user guide is going to be more difficult than usual.


----------



## matomoto

DavecUK said:


> He is just coming to terms with the differences of flow control and a PD pump set to constant 9 or 9.5 bar vs true pressure profiling using a computer, pressure sensor and gear pump. If you understand what's happening or why, it becomes easier to find a routine that works well..It's why this is one of the longer and harder reviews I have to do for BB, plus the user guide is going to be more difficult than usual.


Exactly, I already understand the difference. But your help on how to shoot will be welcome.

Enviado desde mi BLA-L29 mediante Tapatalk


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## matomoto

Two videos.

16.5 grs: 33grs 27'' 91°






Enviado desde mi BLA-L29 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Nikko

If you want to pre-infuse at a lower pressure, then you need to start with the paddle in a position somewhere to the left (to give the pressure you want) and leave it there for the duration you want. Then open up to let the pressure rise.

The blind basket video confirms that the pressure will rise to max irrespective of the paddle position.


----------



## matomoto

Nikko said:


> If you want to pre-infuse at a lower pressure, then you need to start with the paddle in a position somewhere to the left (to give the pressure you want) and leave it there for the duration you want. Then open up to let the pressure rise.
> 
> .


If you put the paddle to the left from the beginning the flow is so low that it will take a long time to fill the water chamber and take pressure

Enviado desde mi BLA-L29 mediante Tapatalk


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## matomoto

Enviado desde mi BLA-L29 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Nikko

matomoto said:


> If you put the paddle to the left from the beginning the flow is so low that it will take a long time to fill the water chamber and take pressure
> 
> Enviado desde mi BLA-L29 mediante Tapatalk


That is true. If you are in a hurry low pressure preinfusion may not be for you.


----------



## matomoto

Nikko said:


> That is true. If you are in a hurry low pressure preinfusion may not be for you.


Maybe with some origins with medium roast can lengthen the shot. My impression with the Italian blend is that if we take more time it remains bitter.

Example, huahuatenango origin






Enviado desde mi BLA-L29 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Stanic

DavecUK said:


> He is just coming to terms with the differences of flow control and a PD pump set to constant 9 or 9.5 bar vs true pressure profiling using a computer, pressure sensor and gear pump. If you understand what's happening or why, it becomes easier to find a routine that works well..It's why this is one of the longer and harder reviews I have to do for BB, plus the user guide is going to be more difficult than usual.


I see now (aha)


----------



## Stanic

I'd love to see Dave review the Decent Espresso machine


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> I'd love to see Dave review the Decent Espresso machine


I don't believe Decent would be interested in me reviewing it, if they had wanted any input from someone like me, I think they would have contacted me long before now? I think now it would little like reviewing the Mahlkoenig Vario. It was out and *eventually* I got to see one. I personally thought it wasn't great and said so...boy could I feel the hate from owners. Then people started disputing findings. Once something is out and done, it's very hard to do a review, especially if it's not all positive. The Niche Zero was a difficult review, because I was personally very sceptical and had to put my own negative bias aside...I mean, I actually owned £2500 of grinder, how could it be any good....but it was. I had to give Martin some difficult feedback, but his response to it was excellent, rather than argue, he improved....it was a pleasure to work with him to help him create something that the market really needed.

A lot of companies want only positive sales reviews (like the Whole Latte Love stuff), many don't value proper testing and reviewing and are worried if they cannot control output. Decent strike me as wanting to produce a machine that answers everyone's dreams and are very keen on using social media to promote their ideas and all their positive thinking. It feels as if they are looking to have their ideas and concepts validated, not tested? One thing they should be very careful of:






This shows some of the thinking I myself would have been guilty of many years ago. Espresso machines make coffee and they need to be easy to use. It's very easy for tech savvy people following a project to be familiar with all the concepts and ideas as they grow. The problem is once it's all done, literally only 20% of the functionality actually gets used. Take Microsoft Word as a fine example of this. The guy above just wanted a shower, most people just want to make a coffee...sure they want a good coffee or a good shower, but our lives are often complex enough. Ever remember that time standing in the sweetshop as a kid looking at all the jars...the more choice you had, the harder it was. With the Vesuvius, one of the fantastic self limiting things was the excellent, but older commercial control board could only have so much programming, it means it's at it's limit. There won't be any new functions, the machines bought 3 years ago and the machines bought today all work the same functionally. I think often consumers like that in certain devices.

I usually get contacted around 7-12 months prior to a machines release and it's often at the concept stage. 2 large coffee machine manufacturers (not including ACS, or Lelit) have contacted me in recent months about new machines. Funny enough just as things are starting to get busier in the area I love.....I am getting closer to fully retiring and ceasing reviews, testing design work etc.. on machines, roasters or grinders.

The Bianca review is also a difficult one, because I am sceptical of flow profiling (indirectly pressure profiling), but after heavily testing the prototype...giving my usual feedback, Lelit responded really well...again a pleasure to work with. There are some things about the Bianca that are different, this is because of the tech they use and specifically how they had to use it. This is going to throw people initially....but results in the cup are what count, not how something Videos and understanding what's really going on is so important. Did Lelit listen to everything, pretty much, perhaps resistant in a few areas, but that's expected as I don't know them very well yet and of course they hold the financial risk, I don't..


----------



## DavecUK

> Two videos.
> 
> 16.5 grs: 33grs 27'' 91°


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


>


love that bit in particular...


----------



## tjchung

What is the water debit (flow rate in the first 10 seconds) of this machine in paddle full open operation?


----------



## DavecUK

tjchung said:


> What is the water debit (flow rate in the first 10 seconds) of this machine in paddle full open operation?


Approximately 66 ml...however I have fine tuned mine from factory as part of my testing. Will either be explained in review or in BB user guide....not sure which yet. Working from my notes it will be around 50 ml perhaps slightly more on factory settings.

Gosh there are some technical questions coming out, I never bother mentioning this stuff for machines when I review and test them, I never thought anyone would be interested.


----------



## tjchung

DavecUK said:


> Approximately 66 ml...however I have fine tuned mine from factory as part of my testing. Will either be explained in review or in BB user guide....not sure which yet. Working from my notes it will be around 50 ml perhaps slightly more on factory settings.


Is it possible to make the water debit bigger? Adjust the needle valve or change a gicleur?


----------



## DavecUK

tjchung said:


> Is it possible to make the water debit bigger? Adjust the needle valve or change a gicleur?


Why would you want to make the water debit larger?


----------



## Hasi

tjchung said:


> Is it possible to make the water debit bigger? Adjust the needle valve or change a gicleur?


...why would that be important?

(edit: Oops, Dave's been quicker)


----------



## tjchung

DavecUK said:


> Why would you want to make the water debit larger?


If the water debit is bigger (e.g. 100ml/10sec), you could have a wider range to adjust the flow rate.

When the water debit below 60, that always make the espresso taste ashy, heavy and muddy.


----------



## Hasi

tjchung said:


> If the water debit is bigger (e.g. 100ml/10sec), you could have a wider range to adjust the flow rate.
> 
> When the water debit below 60, that always make the espresso taste ashy, heavy and muddy.


why in your opinion would that happen?


----------



## DavecUK

tjchung said:


> If the water debit is bigger (e.g. 100ml/10sec), you could have a wider range to adjust the flow rate.
> 
> When the water debit below 60, that always make the espresso taste ashy, heavy and muddy.


Perhaps if we do a thought experiment together.

We have a popular vibe pump espresso machine set to 9 bar. We have our grinder set up for an espresso double shot and it runs for 30 seconds for around 50ml of espresso. The expansion valve dumps excess water not required, so that the 9 bar pressure can be maintained. As we only got 50ml out in 30 seconds, if we estimate the headspace, E61 chamber and puck hold perhaps 20ml more altogether (my estimate is based on different measurments over the years, not pulled out of my backside)..

Logically a maximum of 70ml water flowed (and not all of it through the puck) during the 30 seconds of the shot. This equals almost 24 ml /10 sec

If we do the same with a popular rotary pumped machine...which we all know...or should know has almost double the water debit capability of a Vibe pump. We have same group grind and shot time/volume..Excess water is circulated around the bypass in the pump and reused to maintain the pressure at 9 bar. Logically no more that 70ml of water flows for the same debit of 24ml in /10 sec

So this is pretty obvious, why would it be any different? Lets no double the size of the Gicleur in on machine from 0.7 to 1.4. The flow rate with no puck may well increase for the rotary, perhaps perhaps not depending on the vibe pump. We pull the same espresso again, volume and time....because that's what we want. In what way would the flow rate be different? The answer, the flow rate through the coffee wouldn't be.

Note: for a single basket, the figures would be even lower, which is why I used a double

Flow rate through the coffee is a function of pressure and grind fineness....a very simplified view below, all other things being equal:


Finness increases + Pressure remains the same = lower flow

Finness decreases + Pressure remains the same = increased flow

Finness remains the same + Pressure decreases = lower flow (again a tad less simplistic than this)

Finness remains the same + Pressure increases = higher flow (up to a point, it begins to get more complex)


So when does water debit matter, well if you're requirement is a super duper lungo, pulled over 20 seconds and requiring 250ml of espresso from a double basket...You would have to flow 250ml+20ml or 270 ml in 20 seconds, that is 135ml in 10s. If a requirement is double lungos of 250ml in 20s...then no the Lelit Bianca is not the machine for you...because it couldn't quite make the water debit for that. Of course if you wanted to do the super lungo in say 25 or 30s, then it can just about do it.

Of course, if you are pulling crap like that, you might as well grind the beans with a hammer, put em in a saucepan and boil em with a mug of water.









P.S. I just realised Nikko might be stalking my posts, just waiting to try and troll me


----------



## Hasi

I copy that... to my knowledge/understanding more debit also equals longer warm up time as well as a higher chance of limescale build up.

I'm still curious to read from tjchung about possible reasons for those taste defects...


----------



## dev

tjchung said:


> If the water debit is bigger (e.g. 100ml/10sec), you could have a wider range to adjust the flow rate.
> 
> When the water debit below 60, that always make the espresso taste ashy, heavy and muddy.


Wait, what?

The espresso vocabulary seems to be expanding by the minute.... OTOH if you're using burnt coffee those attributes wold certainly describe a shot.


----------



## tjchung

https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/flow-rate-of-rotary-pump-espresso-machine-t1451.html

This is the discussion of water debit 12 years ago. Believe it or not


----------



## DavecUK

I read all that and although interesting it is best confined to the dustbin of history. Machines and thinking has moved on a lot since then. It's one of those interesting, but ultimately technical discussions that have no answer for machines like the Bianca apart from "it's ok". Or for the Vesuvius "how long is a bit of string".

I have another wonderful PM to answer, asking which is better a Bianca or the Vesuvius? As I also purchased the prototype Bianca, that's not a simple question. It depends what you want I guess.


----------



## Hasi

tjchung said:


> https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/flow-rate-of-rotary-pump-espresso-machine-t1451.html
> 
> This is the discussion of water debit 12 years ago. Believe it or not


this is an excerpt from the thread you quoted, how about that then?



> AndyS
> 
> #10: Apr 15, 2006, 11:42 pm
> 
> cannonfodder wrote:
> 
> Interesting, part of the reason I ask is because I have been having fits pulling decent shots. I have just been attributing that to the handle side of the portafilter and having to adjust to a new machine. I can pull a pretty darn good shot from my Isomac and my lever but this machine is in a different class.
> 
> When I rebuilt the groups, one of the dispersion disks had a crack in it so I ordered a new one. When I received the new disk I was surprised at how much smaller the openings around the disk were. I attributed that to years of use eroding the brass. I got to thinking, and wondering if the group jets had suffered similar erosion over time. Jets are cheap, under $2, so I ordered a new one for the sake of trying along with a couple of ridge-less LM baskets. I am assuming that the new jet would reduce the flow rate provided the old one has opened up over time?
> 
> People play with jet sizes. 0.6mm seems to be popular with obsessive artisan baristas (which is what I aspire to be)!
> 
> I'm told 0.6mm is also the size orifice used in the LM GS-3, and the GS-3 has an pretty low water debit around 60ml/10 sec. It has a reputation as an easier machine to pull shots on, and the low water debit is one important factor, I believe. Along with exceptionally good water dispersion in the group, great temp stability, stainless brew path, etc, etc....


So, at 60ml water debit it has a reputation as an easier machine to pull shots on. I like!


----------



## dev

Since lighter roast extractions really benefit from a slow, debit and time,pre-infusion there's no good reason to molest the puck with high flows.

The more interesting question is how does messing about with the paddle affect the thermal stability of this franken-E61 group. And by that I mean how does the temperature look at the end of a 40+ sec extraction.


----------



## DavecUK

dev said:


> Since lighter roast extractions really benefit from a slow, debit and time,pre-infusion there's no good reason to molest the puck with high flows.
> 
> The more interesting question is how does messing about with the paddle affect the thermal stability of this franken-E61 group. And by that I mean how does the temperature look at the end of a 40+ sec extraction.


I thought about how lots of hi end stuff is portrayed on the tube........Don't talk to me about facts....it's about marketing. Just watch this and forget about boring old facts...enjoy


----------



## Hasi




----------



## cloughy

Excitement short lived  something ain't right with this machine..think it's taken a hit at some point


----------



## Hasi

oh noes...


----------



## DavecUK

Theres a thing about packaging by Lelit in my review....and some recommendations....who did you get the machine from?

Oh and inspect carefully the damage is likely to be a lot more extensive than you can see.


----------



## cloughy

Luckily I bought from BB who have been fantastic so I'm sure they'll come good. BB packaged it so well it was like fort knox on a small wooden pallet. It's got me flummoxed. From side on the machine is sagging a little in the middle


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## L&R

Fingers crossed that the seller will replace the machine. More likely it was hit at the factory.


----------



## DavecUK

cloughy said:


> Luckily I bought from BB who have been fantastic so I'm sure they'll come good. BB packaged it so well it was like fort knox on a small wooden pallet. It's got me flummoxed. From side on the machine is sagging a little in the middle


It's not Bella Baristas fault, it's the Lelit Packaging system that is at fault + of course some help from the couriers. I specifically mention the packaging and damage in my review. Lelit maintain their packaging was designed by an expert packaging company and it's all good. I maintained that in my view it's insufficient. You can decide who you would rather believe...me or the expert packaging company that designed the packaging. I could see a number of flaws in the packaging, but hey what have I learned during my lifetime. The problem is understanding basic physics....and dare I say common sense and the packaging company don't seem to understand it. Lelit were given recommendations for the future, it will be interesting to see if they follow them.

In all the machines I have shipped back to Bella Barista over the years....and it's a lot, not one has ever got damaged...because I make sure they can't (as much as is humanly possible). With the Lelit machine I am unsure how to send it back because I don't have to stuff to repack it in a way I think is right. So I will probably end up with it in the back of a car when I go to meet them and Expobar next week.

I know all their Bianca machines were fine when received from Lelit, because I had them check every one, the problem is that they are on a big pallet, shrink wrapped and a forklift cannot drop anything (unless it catches as you reverse), the forks can only go down so fast (I have driven one before). Of course BB will sort you out...they always do keep their customers happy...but this is starting to annoy me. I have spoken to BB and given them a set of things to try to modify Lelit packaging in the hope of preventing this happening again. you may not know this but BB don't get the money back from the couriers, that money is just gone and the machine not really repairable (probably)!

P.S. My review machine was also damaged, which is how I know and why it's in the review.


----------



## L&R

I was thinking of upgrade with a Lelit machine like this (soon or later), but after these comments and pictures I am not sure anymore.

In my case I will need an International delivery and situation could be even worse.


----------



## Stanic

oh boy that must have been a huge impact


----------



## cloughy

That's a shame if BB will lose out. They packaged it so well. I don't think it's been damaged by FedEx as the impact would need to be solely on left side but as this was on a pallet with protection this seems unlikely.

I think L&R is right, I think this was probably a factory hit. I could be wrong though of course.


----------



## ncrc51

Ouch! Sorry you are having a bad start with what most of us feel is an amazing machine. Have you plugged it in to see if mechanically and electrically it still functions? If so it would speak to the quality of the components and construction if it could take a hit like that and still work. Although plugging it in could be pretty dramatic if there is internal damage and shorting of electrical components.


----------



## DavecUK

L&R said:


> I was thinking of upgrade with a Lelit machine like this (soon or later), but after these comments and pictures I am not sure anymore.
> 
> In my case I will need an International delivery and situation could be even worse.


*If it's from BB I would not worry about it...because I am pretty sure my packaging recommendations will be immediately implemented by them!* If it's from a different retailer, who will ship it as is....then yeah, be cautious, or personally collect it.



cloughy said:


> That's a shame if BB will lose out. They packaged it so well. I don't think it's been damaged by FedEx as the impact would need to be solely on left side but as this was on a pallet with protection this seems unlikely.
> 
> I think L&R is right, I think this was a factory hit. You could probably miss it during a PDI but it was the first thing I noticed (never even turned the machine on)


 It's the Lelit packaging inside that's the problem, not the overbox and any really rough handling by a courier will show the problem. As I said before every one of those machines was unboxed and inspected at BB by an engineer specifically for the sort of damage you describe, before they even PIDed them. This was because it happened to my review machine and is detailed in my review (soon to be published). As soon as I saw the Lelit packaging I asked BB to inspect every Bianca they had.

The problem is not even BB boxing and unboxing of the Lelit packaging as I ask for my machines to come exactly as the factory send them, so mine was not unboxed! Only in this way can I be sure *exactly* what the factory does.


----------



## cloughy

ncrc51 said:


> Ouch! Sorry you are having a bad start with what most of us feel is an amazing machine. Have you plugged it in to see if mechanically and electrically it still functions? If so it would speak to the quality of the components and construction if it could take a hit like that and still work. Although plugging it in could be pretty dramatic if there is internal damage and shorting of electrical components.


It's a lovely looking machine and the build quality is top notch. I didn't turn it on as I was strapped for time and it's taken me an hour to repackage it! I wasn't going to do anything about the alignment issue on the left as I was always going to mount the tank that side anyway but when I saw it wasn't sitting level my heart sank


----------



## cloughy

Got a replacement coming tomorrow, first class from BB


----------



## L&R

inauspicious 13


----------



## DavecUK

cloughy said:


> Got a replacement coming tomorrow, first class from BB


Did you really expect anything less from BB


----------



## ncrc51

That's great service. Very fortunate to have such an ethical supplier. I'd expect the same from Chris Coffee Service here in the states, but fortunately have never had an experience to test that out. Anxious to hear thoughts about the machine when the new one arrives.


----------



## DavecUK

ncrc51 said:


> That's great service. Very fortunate to have such an ethical supplier. I'd expect the same from Chris Coffee Service here in the states, but fortunately have never had an experience to test that out. Anxious to hear thoughts about the machine when the new one arrives.


Don't forget to catch my review as well. I know it's the UK version, but should be quite relevant for the US version. In total probably almost 1 hour of Videos. The internal Tech tour is about 18 minutes and I couldn't cover everything (even forgot the autofill probe dammit). it's probably one of the longest/biggest reviews I have ever done in terms of content.


----------



## Jony

Good luck with the new machine. Bet you are glad it wasn't a box shitter.haha


----------



## DavecUK

Jony said:


> Good luck with the new machine. Bet you are glad it wasn't a box shitter.haha


People love box shifters prices, until something goes wrong......I've seen it countless times over the last decade or so.


----------



## Jony

Your right Dave, oh how thee mind boggles!


----------



## cloughy

Bianca MK2 is so well packed I'm not sure how to get it out!


----------



## ashcroc

cloughy said:


> Bianca MK2 is so well packed I'm not sure how to get it out!


Liking the extra strengthening.


----------



## L&R

Cloughy it is time to change the signature!


----------



## cloughy

So pleased with this thing!


----------



## DavecUK

Can you Imagine how I feel having to unbox, unpack it all, set it up, clean the machine up and then repack it all. Then rebox them. Just think how long that takes before I even get to start commissioning a machine, cleaning and flushing it out so it's ready for reviews. I would estimate that the whole process takes around 3 hours (at least). It's the biggest ballache of the job and doesn't include the time I have to wait in for the deliver/collection..

*Don't forget to put felt furniture pads on the feet...nice good quality thick ones, not thin ones!*


----------



## L&R

cloughy said:


> So pleased with this thing!


Protect on time the drip tray cover


----------



## ashcroc

L&R said:


> Protect on time the drip tray cover


Pull that nasty label off the group head too before it etches itself on there.


----------



## ncrc51

That is a beautiful machine.


----------



## Jony

I must say it does look like a really good machine. Enjoy


----------



## cloughy

Done. Thanks for the tip @ashroc that sticker was already firmly on there, adhesive was a bugger to get off!


----------



## jj-x-ray

So shiny


----------



## Jony

jj-x-ray said:


> So shiny


Yep I do miss a shiny machine


----------



## Hasi

Jony said:


> Yep I do miss a shiny machine


go buff yours will ya?


----------



## Stanic

cloughy said:


> So pleased with this thing!


Omg so hot








I feel like Randy in the Creme Fraise episode


----------



## dev

Congrats. All you need now is a proper grinder to make the most out of your setup.


----------



## jj-x-ray

Aye there's a nice versalab M3 and a Titus still for sale while you're feeling flush ahem


----------



## cloughy

It's only been a few days but a couple of things I've liked about the Bianca thus far....

Really like the flexible water tank placement. I find that being on the side it allows me to fill up with water super easy. It also has the added benefit of somewhere to store spare PF and tamper.

Warming rack is very efficient, I like the removable grid the cups sit on so as not to scratch the top of the machine

I really like the the small LCD screen with the built in shot timer, you do everything though it setting pre infusion time etc

But the main thing I like is how quiet it is! the pump is so silent and I can tell some thought has gone into reducing any rattles (drip tray grid sits on rubber feet for example)

Only had a small play with the paddle as I'm just concentrating on pre insusion for now, will use it more in time I'm sure

Only thing I can't understand is the supplied power cable, it's not a right angled one which defeats the object of putting tank to the side as you can't get it flush to the wall, they're only a few quid to change though.


----------



## Jony

Yep I do agree.


----------



## tobyjrn6

If you guys keep posting in this thread im gonna end up buying one ffs


----------



## DavecUK

tobyjrn6 said:


> If you guys keep posting in this thread im gonna end up buying one ffs


Well if you are still on the Fence, here is my completed review of the Lelit Bianca

https://wp.me/p7LpqI-4R


----------



## matomoto

DavecUK said:


> Well if you are still on the Fence, here is my completed review of the Lelit Bianca
> 
> https://wp.me/p7LpqI-4R


Great!!!!

Hi Dave, are you planning to make more videos with profiles?

Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

matomoto said:


> Great!!!!
> 
> Hi Dave, are you planning to make more videos with profiles?
> 
> Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


Theres no way you guys could have read it all and watched all the Videos....<sigh> have I wasted my efforts again.</sigh>

I may do some more videoed profiles, it does take some time. L:elit have a Video with a few examples. I'll be quite honest though, although there are lots of ways it could be used. I think the best results will be pure manual control via the paddle and variations on what I have already done e.g. loooonger infusions, or shorter....slower or faster ramp rate, then controlling max pressure and the drop rate. Some of the other things might well be likened to driving a rally car with your feet because you can, not because it's better!

Perhaps I'll do some more B&W slo mo shots wiv music









Seriously though, I thought it was a really good machine, rather have that than many many other machines on the market, a lot of them costing more money. As for a V vs B comparison, don't ask me, I like them both for different reasons, If I didn't I wouldn't own one of each would I?


----------



## Jony

Strikes yet again! ha


----------



## matomoto

DavecUK said:


> Theres no way you guys could have read it all and watched all the Videos....<sigh> have I wasted my efforts again.
> 
> I may do some more videoed profiles, it does take some time. L:elit have a Video with a few examples. I'll be quite honest though, although there are lots of ways it could be used. I think the best results will be pure manual control via the paddle and variations on what I have already done e.g. loooonger infusions, or shorter....slower or faster ramp rate, then controlling max pressure and the drop rate. Some of the other things might well be likened to driving a rally car with your feet because you can, not because it's better!
> 
> Perhaps I'll do some more B&W slo mo shots wiv music
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously though, I thought it was a really good machine, rather have that than many many other machines on the market, a lot of them costing more money. As for a V vs B comparison, don't ask me, I like them both for different reasons, If I didn't I wouldn't own one of each would I?
> 
> </sigh>


I feel sad to see that you think that I have not seen all the videos, I already tell you that I have seen them , except the tours of the machine.

Your work seems very important to me to minimize it by not seeing it. If I say that I will see them again patiently, because the English language is not my mother tongue.

I would never ask for a comparison between vesuvius and bianca.

Best regards.

Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## eddie57

Brilliant review yet again dave, and your video editing is getting better all the time. I have tried searching for the (portafilter device) you made in 2005 but can't find it. did you make a tutorial? or explain how you made it, if so could you post a link would really appreciate it.

ps I have set my heart on a (Vesuvius) and now you go and post a review like this, my heads in the shed now:confused:


----------



## Nikko

I would appreciate more technical input on the variable orifice performance

1. Why is it difficult to maintain constant low pressure (2 bars was mentioned). Is that because the resistance of the puck changes?

2. Is the change in pressure linear with the paddle movement

3. How is the paddle spindle sealed - will regular maintenance be required to keep leak free

thanks


----------



## DavecUK

eddie57 said:


> Brilliant review yet again dave, and your video editing is getting better all the time. I have tried searching for the (portafilter device) you made in 2005 but can't find it. did you make a tutorial? or explain how you made it, if so could you post a link would really appreciate it.
> 
> ps I have set my heart on a (Vesuvius) and now you go and post a review like this, my heads in the shed now:confused:


Two very different machines......you could just get both like I did







. I will revert back to the V and the Bianca will go to join my collection. The V is like a comfortable old shoe...It has faithfully sat on my counter switching on and off 16 hours a day, 7 days a week 52 weeks a year for the last 4 years. It's given me no trouble, I have had to do absolutely nothing to it and she looks the same now as the day I got her. I select the profile I want and it goes to work, shot after shot after shot. As I have said before beauty is in the eye of the beholder, the V has it's cost hidden inside like almost no other machine. Bianca Boilers are good at 8mm end plates and 1.5mm thick in AISI 316L, the V is 12mm thick plates and 2mm thick boilers in AISI 316L, the steel is even thicker, the front plate has almost 5mm of stainless strengthening it behind the group. It has a solidity and simplicity of design I appreciate and certain functions no other machine has. It's also VERY expensive to build

The Bianca is beautiful in a different way.

The Minima again has it's own charm...it's a street urchin, punching above his weight, he can do it for almost half the price. opening up the world of quality coffee from a dual boiler system....but for a bargain price.

Every machine I own has it's own special charm....they don't necessarily have to be expensive. e.g. the Melitta Varianza CSP BTC

I have not published detail of my device because it is slightly different to the Scace II, it's also a 10 year old design now, perhaps I can do even better. It is very accurate but has to be used properly, another reason I have not given much detail.

Oh my god I just seen Nikko posted something, thank god he is blocked, I can't be arsed to read it, ...come on Nikko, that's enough for tonight.


----------



## kennyboy993

Great review Dave - reading it all as we speak.

Now come on though - you can't leave us like this....... we're lucky enough to have u on this forum and save us all £000's buying crap equipment..... but you've got to tell us:

If u could only buy one of them - and your goal was to get a machine that could get the best out of different beans/roasts through pressure/flow in-shot adjustments - which would it be?

One is so much cheaper than the other - and u tell us why and it's pretty clear to see why - but is in the cup that different.


----------



## kennyboy993

Your review has got me really in to this machine Dave - id like to ask another couple of questions:

1. Out of interest - why did u set the main pump to 10bar max, just so u could over 9bar with the paddle occasionally?

2. How would the paddle operate if the machine was plumbed in? I run around 2.5bar with a prv - the paddle minimum would equal main pressure?


----------



## kusmi

Really enjoyed reading your review Dave!

You mentioned the brew temperature accuracy is „stable" - do you have some raw data on this? E.g. to pull 3 espressos in short succession, how large will be the temperature drop? Or how long should I wait between pulls so the temperature recovers?

Regarding your recommended PID setting "KPc": When I understand you correctly, Lelit uses 0.8 to have "better performance" during the first 30 min. So they could tune their firmware to set it to 0.8 during the first ½ h and then automatically change it to your recommended 0.4 after that time (or gradually ramp that down to 0.4)?


----------



## DavecUK

kennyboy993 said:


> Your review has got me really in to this machine Dave - id like to ask another couple of questions:
> 
> 1. Out of interest - why did u set the main pump to 10bar max, just so u could over 9bar with the paddle occasionally?
> 
> 2. How would the paddle operate if the machine was plumbed in? I run around 2.5bar with a prv - the paddle minimum would equal main pressure?


1. Because 9 bar ish is the pressure used as a good average pressure for the shot, based on the fact that profiling wasn't a "thing", when rotary pumped machines first came about. However, now we don't need to worry about an "average" best pressure. We can decide....so my own experience with pressure profiling has shown that a higher pressure at the beginning portion can benefit many shots. Remember all commercial levers tend to generate more than 9 bar at the start of a shot....no one worried about that. my view is 10 or 10.5 bar, simply gives you flexibility, the flexibility you don't have on a normal rotary pumped machine.

2. it wouldn't make any real difference, apart from the fact that if using electronic (pump start/stop preinfusion), during the stop, mains pressure of 2.5 bar would be applied to the coffee and not 0. This may well have an impact, but as I don't plumb machines, I can't comment further.



kusmi said:


> Really enjoyed reading your review Dave!
> 
> You mentioned the brew temperature accuracy is „stable" - do you have some raw data on this? E.g. to pull 3 espressos in short succession, how large will be the temperature drop? Or how long should I wait between pulls so the temperature recovers?
> 
> Regarding your recommended PID setting "KPc": When I understand you correctly, Lelit uses 0.8 to have "better performance" during the first 30 min. So they could tune their firmware to set it to 0.8 during the first ½ h and then automatically change it to your recommended 0.4 after that time (or gradually ramp that down to 0.4)?


I don't have raw data I am prepared to collate to produce a chart or anything. When I test it's about 3 key things:

1. Does the brew temperature accurately reflect the displayed temperature at all reasonable (and slightly unreasonable) values of brewing temperatures e.g. 89-97C. At the outliers I am happy to accept a little variability during the shot.

2. Are the PID settings optimised to give the balance between recovery, stability and varied brew temperature performance

3. Does this work not only for 1 hour on, but later after 3 or 4 hours on and does steam boiler on/off have any impact.

If you pull 1 double espresso, by the time you grind, tamp and are ready to pull another, the machine should also be ready. The parameters I have to this are a delay of 30 seconds between one shot ending and the next beginning.....for 4 double shots in a row. if it does this OK, then I am happy. It might be easy to think I could do more, but it's important to realise that this is for. 9 temperatures x 4 shots, x 2 time slots (1 hr and 5 h) x repeats due to tuning ...this ends up being around 200 shots! It's only 200, because fortunately I can reduce the number of consecutive shots at the outliers and tuning within a more limited realistic range, normally reduces the number of repeats. I also don't record it all in a detailed form, because sometimes it's just wrong and no point recording it, when I am making parameter changes. The BIG delay is the wait after a parameter change.

I doubt anyone else including the manufacturers do the sort of detailed testing i do for brew temperature. certainly the prototype was just running on standard Gicar settings when I got it.

As for the KPc setting, no I don't think you have understood. There is no "better" performance in the first 30m...the machine simply isn't ready to make coffee in the first 30m, so having a PID setting so it all looks good is worthless. My value is the right value for a 230V machine.


----------



## Stanic

Dave's videos are really helpful ��


----------



## DavecUK

Stanic said:


> Dale's videos are really helpful ��


I don't know a Dale.... who is he?

well apart from Dale Winton and he is in no shape to use a Bianca, probably never was.

oh and before anyone says....I liked Dale Winton!


----------



## Stanic

Uups damn you autocorrect


----------



## Stanic

I'm seriously considering the Bianca

The low noise of the pump is quite incredible!


----------



## jj-x-ray

Not proper coffee unless it's accompanied by the deafening roar of a vibration pump 

I think I have gaggia tinitus

Great machine and great review again Dave.



Stanic said:


> I'm seriously considering the Bianca
> 
> The low noise of the pump is quite incredible!


----------



## L&R

Is there any other materials other than stainless steel in the chassis, how thick are the panels?

What grade of SS is used or at least is it magnetic or non magnetic?

Thank you.

@ *jj-x-ray*







when there isn't brrr sound, I am usually with a screwdriver in hand


----------



## DavecUK

L&R said:


> Is there any other materials other than stainless steel in the chassis, how thick are the panels?
> 
> What grade of SS is used or at least is it magnetic or non magnetic?
> 
> Thank you.


This is all working from memory, but I am pretty sure it is right. I am amazed at the technical depth wanted....when people buy machines costing 3 times as much I never see such information required....or any real in depth reviews...s

*The panels are 1.2mm thick, the frame and base frame are 2.0 mm thick, measured with a micrometer*

Panels (what I call the Tin, it's a nickname) are Austenitic Stainless, can't remember the steel grade for sure, but something that's going to take a high polish and be very corrosion resistant to maintain appearance on a mirror finish. This is because the high mirror finishes really show up any imperfections.

The base frame is Martensitic stainless. This will be because bending and forming can be done and it work hardens the steel at these points. Again not sure of the grade, but it allows workability with reduced corrosion resistance, but of course it's inside the body and not given a mirror finish. There is of course more than enough corrosion resistance to do the job it has to do *e.g. it's nothing like the Mild steel used on so many machines, I won't name names, but some are unreasonably/undeservingly popular!*



*
*The panel under the cup warmer is Martensitic, why I'm not sure, will it corrode...no, is it mirror finished, no, does it laser cut easier...probably......is it important, no.

There are other materials in the chassis, but they don't form a structural part of the Chassis, e.g. power plug sockets, plastic clips, electrical components

Hope it all helps......


----------



## ATZ

@DavecUK could you produce a lever style shot with the bianca? I was all set on holding out on a Londinium but not this has piqued my interest! I love the lelit brand and design in general!


----------



## DavecUK

I believe you can, but if you explain the sort of pressures & times you want, I can try one and vid it. Obviously the pressure limits are the max the pump is set to.


----------



## DavecUK

@ATZ


----------



## ATZ

@DavecUK from what I understood a lever is something akin to:

- a low pressure preinfusion for some amount of time, determined by you/The coffee? Say 4-6 seconds at 2/3 bar.

- a quick ramp to around 9/10 bar pressure (or somewhere close)

- a slowly declining pressure throughout the rest of the shot to desired shot output.

Thoughts?


----------



## DavecUK

Yeah a shot like that is no problem. It can also do slayer style shots no problem as well.


----------



## matomoto

DavecUK said:


> Yeah a shot like that is no problem. It can also do slayer style shots no problem as well.


Dave, a question.

I have two occasions that when I run out of water, it spoils my shot. If I remember correctly, before there was a lack of water but I could finish the shot ..

Could it be that the 70 liter lelit's filter has picked up air?

Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

I think there is a small delay, but not enough for last shot protection. You were just lucky and caught it right. I tested for LSP and it's not there


----------



## matomoto

DavecUK said:


> I think there is a small delay, but not enough for last shot protection. You were just lucky and caught it right. I tested for LSP and it's not there


Ok, Sorry Dave but I don't know what is LSP

Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Stanic

matomoto said:


> Ok, Sorry Dave but I don't know what is LSP
> 
> Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


last shot protection


----------



## cloughy

This just landed, looking forward to reading this one


----------



## DavecUK

Pah, I've already updated it...just now (that's a draft full of typos n stuff).

Fortunately for you...with your experience the updates are not significant. I think you will find the Video material more interesting and definitely optimise the paddle range.

Main changes, typos, diagram wrong showing HX in steam boiler for preheat, don't know how that remained in there, but there is no brew water preheat. Some extra stuff about generic preparation of espresso, the addition of the cafe crema (if you are from the 80s). etc..

You are missing nothing critical for you, but BB will probably send you an update...probably.

How are you finding Bianca...done a slayer style yet?


----------



## lake_m

I've been purposefully avoiding reading this thread but I couldn't help it any longer.

I've just read all of it including Dave's review and watched most of the videos.

Just a great review.

This is one seriously nice machine!

It just does everything I would want. The perfect upgrade. (and a LOT cheaper than a LM GS3 MP).

Is having a saturated group worth £3000 extra? I think I know the answer.


----------



## DavecUK

lake_m said:


> I've been purposefully avoiding reading this thread but I couldn't help it any longer.
> 
> I've just read all of it including Dave's review and watched most of the videos.
> 
> Just a great review.
> 
> This is one seriously nice machine!
> 
> It just does everything I would want. The perfect upgrade. (and a LOT cheaper than a LM GS3 MP).
> 
> Is having a saturated group worth £3000 extra? I think I know the answer.


It's the lowest offset on any e61 machine I have ever seen only 10C....which is a good thing. If it were my money and I wasn't very cash rich, or simply didn't want to spend more than a certain amount, but wanted the ability to do most everything, I'd be pushing in the direction of the Bianca...well I actually did for the prototype and really it's just for my collection because it's interesting and a bit of fun, without being too taxing. I can get hands on, but I don't need to be head into an app to get my coffee, or mucking about with a tablet...just walk up and shoot. My V has a little more complexity in the setup, but once it's where you want it, the only complication is which profile shall I choose.

The S1 is a nice machine, but I think you would find the Bianca a definite move up, teriffic looks and just more fun.....quieter too and I'll bet you thought the S1 was quiet (most S1s are fairly quiet)


----------



## cloughy

It's a really good guide and have just changed the LCC settings to those you recommended using the videos

I'm really enjoying the Bianca but my inexperience has been letting me down lately and I'm producing some shots so sour they could be used in torture techniques!

Doubt my grinder is helping either (SGP)

Still can't believe how quiet it is though!

Oh, haven't tried a slayer yet sgp probably wouldn't be able to grind fine enough


----------



## DavecUK

cloughy said:


> It's a really good guide and have just changed the LCC settings to those you recommended using the videos
> 
> I'm really enjoying the Bianca but my inexperience has been letting me down lately and I'm producing some shots so sour they could be used in torture techniques!
> 
> Doubt my grinder is helping either (SGP)
> 
> Still can't believe how quiet it is though!
> 
> Oh, haven't tried a slayer yet sgp probably wouldn't be able to grind fine enough


The SGP definitely won't be good enough for the Bianca, it will be really hard to get a good profiled shot. Just for some feedback on the user guide....did you find the Videos useful for all the different shot types you can do (well just some really) I'm sure the inventive will come up with more.

oh I can't remember if I covered it in the user guide...probably not, turn up the pump to 10 bar, gives you a lot more flexibility and range in the profiles, it's just a simply adjustment underneath the machine and only takes a few minutes.

[video=youtube;fh-VUwnMd_g]






I bet I forgot to mention it in the guide...dammit.


----------



## cloughy

Videos were very handy indeed Dave especially the grind normalisation one and the different profiles  so much flexibility with the paddle and something I'm sure I'll come to use more often the more confident I get with the machine

Have tuned the pump to 10 bar, which I think you mentioned at some point just can't remember where

Want Niche to arrive more than ever since the Bianca turned up


----------



## cloughy

Video about the KPc adjustment was also very useful


----------



## lake_m

DavecUK said:


> It's the lowest offset on any e61 machine I have ever seen only 10C....which is a good thing. If it were my money and I wasn't very cash rich, or simply didn't want to spend more than a certain amount, but wanted the ability to do most everything, I'd be pushing in the direction of the Bianca...well I actually did for the prototype and really it's just for my collection because it's interesting and a bit of fun, without being too taxing. I can get hands on, but I don't need to be head into an app to get my coffee, or mucking about with a tablet...just walk up and shoot. My V has a little more complexity in the setup, but once it's where you want it, the only complication is which profile shall I choose.
> 
> The S1 is a nice machine, but I think you would find the Bianca a definite move up, teriffic looks and just more fun.....quieter too and I'll bet you thought the S1 was quiet (most S1s are fairly quiet)


Dave is the 10*C temperature off-set already set up from the factory within the PID i.e. 94*C displayed = 94*C delivered to the coffee? My S1 had to be set up by myself using a home-made SCACE. (+4*C difference from boiler to water delivery)


----------



## DavecUK

lake_m said:


> Dave is the 10*C temperature off-set already set up from the factory within the PID i.e. 94*C displayed = 94*C delivered to the coffee? My S1 had to be set up by myself using a home-made SCACE. (+4*C difference from boiler to water delivery)


After I completed the tests of the prototype, including extensive temperature testing....they took all my recommended settings and hard coded them into the firmware. So if the Gicar is factory reset all my settings are used, except for one KPc.

This is because they felt that setting made the machine not look quite ready until 30 minutes has elapsed. They used a setting of 1.8, I used 1.4. My setting keeps the brew temperature hunting just below the preset and at the preset for about 25 minutes. Theirs keeps it at or above the preset for 20-25 minutes. They made an excuse about this being needed for US machines, but also commented on the machine being ready faster. This was bull because the machine is ready no faster (their only concern), it just might have "looked" more ready. It needs 25 to 30 more minutes to be properly ready. The big problem with their "higher" setting is that after 30 minutes their machine constantly hunts above the preset brew temperature, or simply sits 1C above it most of the time. With my recommended setting for KPc it does not and I always put performance above appearance.

The other thing I should have mentioned in the userguide and still might have to is sleep mode. I forgot, because it's not useful I didn't think about it much. I disabled it and left it disabled and it comes as standard like that from a factory reset. People may not realise, but simply stopping the thermosyphon to an E61 for a short while, allows so much metal to cool, that it actually takes a lot longer than you think to come up to temperature enough not to have a drastic cooling effect on the coffee.

P.S. I don't know about the newer versions of the S1, but rereading my review of the older versions, La Spaz hid a lot of stuff from the customer. The offset on those could only be reduced and I am certain they were programmed never to show overshoots....of course they were not a PID either. I did make some comments in the review, but had to be careful as it was not easily provable at the time and I was less confident then. Now I would have not been so kind to those early S1 machines, especially about temperature management! As a company, I found them quite "closed" to feedback.


----------



## Mesmer

Is the BellaBarista user guide also available online?

On a sidenote, regarding E61 PID Offset, many Expobar Brewtus 4 users are running an offset of 7. This ensures constant temps in extraction.

They come standard with an offset of 12, but you can see the temperature ramp up while pulling a shot in these cases (on an Erics at least)


----------



## DavecUK

Mesmer said:


> Is the BellaBarista user guide also available online?
> 
> On a sidenote, regarding E61 PID Offset, many Expobar Brewtus 4 users are running an offset of 7. This ensures constant temps in extraction.
> 
> They come standard with an offset of 12, but you can see the temperature ramp up while pulling a shot in these cases (on an Erics at least)


They probably have to do that to overcome the design defect. Try 3 shots in a row, it will get hotter and hotter. It's an old design and hopefully no one buys them new any more.


----------



## Mesmer

Sorry to derail the discussion somewhat, but can you elaborate what makes it inferior in design?

As far as my understanding goes, most E61 dual boiler machines are the same (not counting fancy profiling techniques, etc). I mean the group is the same, boilers are more or less the same, how could you mess up the design?


----------



## DavecUK

Mesmer said:


> Sorry to derail the discussion somewhat, but can you elaborate what makes it inferior in design?
> 
> As far as my understanding goes, most E61 dual boiler machines are the same (not counting fancy profiling techniques, etc). I mean the group is the same, boilers are more or less the same, how could you mess up the design?


Unfortunately most E61 dual boiler machines are not the same and it's a lot easier than you think to mess up the design. designers come and go, they retire and youngsters come from uni...what they don't often have is experience and then repeat the mistakes of the past. Or find a way to do something that really isn't good or has been tried and found wanting. In some ways this very thought that it's easy and they are all the same, lulls designers into a false sense of security. It's taken me 15 years and almost 100 machines from different manufacturers to see most of the ideas, it's surprising how often I see the old mistakes returning to haunt modern machines.

Did I say "Inferior in design", I'm sure I said design defect and old design. You have to remember, in it's day it broke new ground, but that was nearly 15 years ago and they didn't quite take into account everything they should have. Good in it's day compared to what else was out there, 1 bad design flaw and really build down to a budget, resusing existing parts, rather than designing some new bits. Modern designs have improved, whilst it stagnated a bit..

*The design defect was quite a few things (all of which worked together to cause issues)*

1. The steam boiler could not be switched off

2. The HX in the steam boiler preheated water for the brew boiler

3. The feed for the brew boiler was at the top

4. The top thermosyphon take-off was at the top of the brew boiler

5. Boilers were standard parts not tuned/made for the application

6. The brew boiler was too large

7. The steam boiler was too small

8. Thermal transfer between the boilers was not considered

*Individually and/or in groups these design flaws affected performance in a number of areas and cause various problems, including and not limited to:*


Inability to run the steam boiler much hotter than 1.1 or 1.2 bar without problems for brew temp (they knew this which it was why they were factory set to 1.1 bar)

consecutive shots could overheat the brew boiler

The thermosyphon was prone to stalling, if even the slightest slow leak developed in a valve (not affected if plumbed)

The thermosyphon could run cooler than it should

Small offsets cause more problems than they tried to solve

eddy currents in the brew boiler and it's large size plus vertical orientation made thermometry inaccurate

The small steaming boiler gave lacklustre performance at the low pressures it needed to operate at (hence the 1 hole tip)


Notice I am not even mentioning the absolutely inappropriate, rubbish and completely failure prone AKO fridge controller they used for temperature management up until about 2005....it was only all the retailers threatening to drop them like a hot potato that finally made them change to a Gicar PID. They were not exactly receptive in the early years...this might have changed recently? There were quite a few other things they needed to improve, unfortunately the machine lived in a development wasteland, what was once a leading idea and opportunity was not capitalised on. Sad really because it garnered a good following and even a user group.

I should also add that it's just as easy to muck up a simple HX design as well.


----------



## lake_m

Back to the Lelit.

Just to clarify, the electronic pre-infusion is a pump on / pump off time set up only?

I watched the Lelit video and the guy set up the electronic pre-infusion for 5 seconds or so, started the shot without touching the paddle and got exactly 2 bar for 5 seconds. The way I understand it, this is possible but you'd have to pre set the paddle location 'in the ball-park' initially and then tune it once the shot starts. I am missing someting?

Do BB do trade ins?


----------



## DavecUK

lake_m said:


> Back to the Lelit.
> 
> Just to clarify, the electronic pre-infusion is a pump on / pump off time set up only?
> 
> I watched the Lelit video and the guy set up the electronic pre-infusion for 5 seconds or so, started the shot without touching the paddle and got exactly 2 bar for 5 seconds. The way I understand it, this is possible but you'd have to pre set the paddle location 'in the ball-park' initially and then tune it once the shot starts. I am missing someting?
> 
> Do BB do trade ins?


The preinfusion is an on, pause and continue. you can set the on and pause times from 0 to 20 seconds.

The paddle can be wherever you want, but physics states it won't affect the maximum pressure reached, just the rate it reaches it. e.g. if the pump is set to 10 bar, run the electronic preinfusion long enough and it will reach 10 bar, unless the paddle is "almost" completely off. It's unlikely you can choose 2 bar for 5 seconds, but with 5 seconds it's probably not long enough to see the slow rise. It might also have been a marketing Video.

If you get it from BB, you will get my much more useful user guide.


----------



## cloughy

@DavecUK don't suppose you intend on doing a cam lube vid do you? or is it a really simple job? my lever is sometimes a bit stiff, was my fault didn't realise puly caff would strip the lube!


----------



## DavecUK

cloughy said:


> @DavecUK don't suppose you intend on doing a cam lube vid do you? or is it a really simple job? my lever is sometimes a bit stiff, was my fault didn't realise puly caff would strip the lube!


Already have done, technique is the same for the Bianca...it's a strong old spring in there, so deffo need to lubricate after backflushing....i only backflush with cleaner 3 monthly and I make much more coffee than you...why have you done it already??

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/e61-lubrication


----------



## cloughy

DavecUK said:


> Already have done, technique is the same for the Bianca...it's a strong old spring in there, so deffo need to lubricate after backflushing....i only backflush with cleaner 3 monthly and I make much more coffee than you...why have you done it already??
> 
> http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/e61-lubrication


Cos I'm an idiot!  used to use it fairly regularly with the gaggia so just assumed it would be ok


----------



## DavecUK

cloughy said:


> Cos I'm an idiot!  used to use it fairly regularly with the gaggia so just assumed it would be ok


What's OK is to drop the shower screen every 2 days and clean behind it, the dispersion disk etc.., remove the portafilter basket dailiy and clean there, plus the little hole with a bottle brush. If you use the naked a bit of a scrubby on both sides of the basket daily, check the holes and toothbrush em when necessary. backflushing really achieves very little except for stopping the vent works getting gummed up.


----------



## Graham J

My recently acquired Lelit Bianca spits a small amount (just a few cc's) of warm water from the small vent nozzle, into the drip tray, during early stage warmup, for about 30 secs or so.

I guess this is just a little venting before the anti-vacuum valve closes, but I don't actually know the cause. Any other machines do this and is this normal behaviour?

Machine is otherwise terrific and I can ask BB (who supplied it) of course, but its sometimes useful to share these imaginary or actual problems.


----------



## DavecUK

Graham J said:


> My recently acquired Lelit Bianca spits a small amount (just a few cc's) of warm water from the small vent nozzle, into the drip tray, during early stage warmup, for about 30 secs or so.
> 
> I guess this is just a little venting before the anti-vacuum valve closes, but I don't actually know the cause. Any other machines do this and is this normal behaviour?
> 
> Machine is otherwise terrific and I can ask BB (who supplied it) of course, but its sometimes useful to share these imaginary or actual problems.


Totally normal, it will also weep a bit after an espresso shot as well, or after pulling water through the group. Cold water expands when heated, so when you switch on or pull cold water from the group the brew boiler heats it and it expands. it's a sealed system, so the expansion valve opens at 12 bar ish to allow that expanding water out (a small amount). If it didn't the Hydraulic pressure would build up and rupture something as water is not compressible (well it is a bit if we're being scientific)....hence expansion when heating needs to be catered for. All machines have an expansion valve.


----------



## Graham J

Thanks for that Dave. Hadn't occurred to me that it was just the brew boiler dealing with water expansion. Also, thanks for your good work on the BB guide. Its very useful! Shots 5 & 6 from your 8 shots video resolved a really bright blend into an enjoyable espresso.

I also used your general review to help me select this machine. I already had several years of general brew experience and a very precise grinder but no real machine knowledge. The "generic" E61 machines were not so interesting and it came down to this or a Lever. So your detailed review and video demo's were very helpful.


----------



## DavecUK

Graham J said:


> Thanks for that Dave. Hadn't occurred to me that it was just the brew boiler dealing with water expansion. Also, thanks for your good work on the BB guide. Its very useful! Shots 5 & 6 from your 8 shots video resolved a really bright blend into an enjoyable espresso.
> 
> I also used your general review to help me select this machine. I already had several years of general brew experience and a very precise grinder but no real machine knowledge. The "generic" E61 machines were not so interesting and it came down to this or a Lever. So your detailed review and video demo's were very helpful.


I'm pleased to hear they were useful....it took more time to do everything with the Bianca than any other machine I have ever used. Especially thinking how to "get across" the different usage scenarios to owners....Hopefully, it sounds like I succeeded.


----------



## martin.baciak

Hey Guys,

I'm really happy that I found this forum and Dave's review of Bianca - great job, really helps to understand what machine can do.

I have one question about 30 minutes starting time - I've read that minimum time to heat up is 30 minutes. I thought that this is kind of recommendation, but I found short manual on https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/files-110/1530009086_copertina-PL162T.pdf where I can see that 30 minutes time is shown on LCC. It's possible to shorten the time with flushing water thru the head or LCC won't me do a shot in 20 minutes even if temperature will be on selected value?

I'm using E61 head on Isomac machine and it could be in operation temperature in 15 minutes by flushing water.. I know.. not ideal, but it's working.

Thanks.


----------



## Mesmer

If you mean C4 drawing, that should mean 30 seconds (two notches). I don't think the machine prohibits you to use it before proper warm up.


----------



## Graham J

martin.baciak said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> I'm really happy that I found this forum and Dave's review of Bianca - great job, really helps to understand what machine can do.
> 
> I have one question about 30 minutes starting time - I've read that minimum time to heat up is 30 minutes. I thought that this is kind of recommendation, but I found short manual on https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/files-110/1530009086_copertina-PL162T.pdf where I can see that 30 minutes time is shown on LCC. It's possible to shorten the time with flushing water thru the head or LCC won't me do a shot in 20 minutes even if temperature will be on selected value?
> 
> I'm using E61 head on Isomac machine and it could be in operation temperature in 15 minutes by flushing water.. I know.. not ideal, but it's working.
> 
> Thanks.


The weblink that you give is just the quick start, foldout part of the Owners Manual, to help you refer to the right sections in the manual. The 30" is part of the initiation cycle the machine goes through the first time its used from new or after a reset. It is a 30 second countdown on the LCC after which you move the lever (see lever symbol on next pictogram) and its then all set to warm up. You can operate the machine a few minutes after that if you wish, although I wouldn't do it, as the boilers heat up really fast. i'm not sure that flushing a lot water will help that much, as its the thermosyphon from the brew boiler that has the needed to warm the grouphead, not a relatively small flow though the needle valve

Its still an E61 group and they need time to stabilise the thermal mass. Personally I use a WEMO plug, programmed to come on an hour before I usually stagger downstairs. This or similar auto-timers cost almost nothing in electricity and give you flexibility on machine availability, along with the Bianca's built-in power reduction timer programme.


----------



## martin.baciak

Oh, looks like I'm blind. Thanks for explanation the difference between minutes and seconds

Just to add info for others.. know that most of you knows.. most of the "smart SSR plugs" like Wemo plug are designed up to 2kW.. so with Bianca it will 100% work only with water boiler, not with both turned on.

Just to not find your house burned out









If I'll buy Bianca I'm thinking to intergrate Sonoff SSR like ITEAD https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Sonoff-ITEAD-WiFi-Wireless-Smart-Switch-Module-With-ABS-Shell-Socket-For-MQTT-COAP-Smart-Home/32683636030.html directly the machine and change switch on the machine to control this SSR.. somehow without big impacting the warranty.. reason is the look of the kitchen without smart plugs and cables..


----------



## cloughy

martin.baciak said:


> Oh, looks like I'm blind. Thanks for explanation the difference between minutes and seconds
> 
> Just to add info for others.. know that most of you knows.. most of the "smart SSR plugs" like Wemo plug are designed up to 2kW.. so with Bianca it will 100% work only with water boiler, not with both turned on.
> 
> Just to not find your house burned out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I'll buy Bianca I'm thinking to intergrate Sonoff SSR like ITEAD https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Sonoff-ITEAD-WiFi-Wireless-Smart-Switch-Module-With-ABS-Shell-Socket-For-MQTT-COAP-Smart-Home/32683636030.html directly the machine and change switch on the machine to control this SSR.. somehow without big impacting the warranty.. reason is the look of the kitchen without smart plugs and cables..


My WiFi plug works fine with my Bianca


----------



## martin.baciak

I know it works, question is until when and if it is safe. But it is OOT for this thread


----------



## kusmi

To be honest I'm a bit skeptical on using AliExpress stuff on mains voltage... while I also buy stuff there, I usually skip buying high voltage devices there. Especially if it is that cheap







- just for safety reasons...


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

martin.baciak said:


> I know it works, question is until when and if it is safe. But it is OOT for this thread


Hi!

The Wemo, according to their specs, last time I read, were rated at 10A.

Thus, at 220V, it will cope with ~2200W. Mind you, in practice, voltage in the UK is 240V approx, although its is technically 230V...

So, like you, I'm also a bit careful when it comes to those. And, when I had my Pro-700, set to work with both boilers simultaneously, the total power drawn was over 2400W.

The only plug I found which is rated at 13A (thus, at 220V will give you 2600W) is the TP link one. I used for over 18 months and had no issues with it.

The mobile phone app is very user friendly and worked flawlessly when I had it.

Here's the link:

https://www.tp-link.com/uk/products/details/cat-5258_HS110.html#specifications

"Maximum power: 2.99KW" (13A at 230V).

Hope that helps.


----------



## martin.baciak

Didn't know about tplink. Thanks. I'm using sonoff without problems, bought from ebay- but using only acording the specs.. Advantage is that you can flash FW to tasmota and use it for openhab via Mqtt for example. Dońt like to have my devices on some cloud, so Ím using openhab server located in my house.


----------



## DavecUK

I use the Meros smart plugs MSS310 I think, take 13amp, nice and compact and sit in a double or single socket with switch no problems. Purchased from Amazon.


----------



## Mesmer

I use a tp link with my e61, no problems so far. As a plus it also records energy usage. I got quite a shock when I switched from a Gaggia single boiler to an e61 dual boiler.


----------



## cloughy

martin.baciak said:


> I know it works, question is until when and if it is safe. But it is OOT for this thread


I misread your post I think, thought you'd said it wouldn't work 100%


----------



## Hasi

Mesmer said:


> I use a tp link with my e61, no problems so far. As a plus it also records energy usage. I got quite a shock when I switched from a Gaggia single boiler to an e61 dual boiler.


pretty sure about the curing effect of e61 spros you're pulling ever since


----------



## Graham J

Hasi said:


> pretty sure about the curing effect of e61 spros you're pulling ever since


I know it works, question is until when and if it is safe. But it is OOT for this thread

For sure its best to be safe, not sorry!

The fact that a machine has 2x1400W elements and a dual PID switching control does not imply that it has a 2800W power consumption.

The Bianca control program powers its boilers sequentially, so the brew boiler heating is completed before the steam boiler element is switched on. This reduces maximum or continuous power requirements. PID switching also means that electrical impedance at any point in the machines heating cycles is hard to predict. We need to talk about impedance not resistance, in a/c power circuits, to be pedantic.

DaveC or others may be better placed than me to talk about measured power consumption of the Lelit Bianca.

I just ran a heating cycle from cold on this Bianca, as point of interest (not as a definitive power statement) and the Belkin Insight WEMO reports a max power consumption of 1522W instantaneous to bring the brew boiler to 94C and the steam boiler to 126C from room temperature - which was close to 25C water temp.,starting. This took about 18 minutes.

Running steam and brew water together for 50 seconds results in 1722W (and a lot of steam in my kitchen) for about 5 seconds dropping, quickly to below 1Kw as the operating temps are restored in 15 secs or so. These power readings are not necessarily accurate although the timings are. The machine comes back to operating temp. from program standby in about 4-5 minutes. Obviously the E61 group will be slower than that to reach set temp.

As we know, there are lots of smart plugs and other timer switches around. This 2018 Belkin Insight is rated at 3.1Kw on 230/240V a/c. The lower power ratings given elsewhere are at 120V a/c and are also for earlier model devices in some cases. So, to be safe, we all need to check our own devices and their ratings with makers or their approved agents.

My kitchen area power sockets are wall mounted under work surfaces where I need to leave items plugged in, such as coffee machines, cooker, washing machines etc, so the ugly appearance of smart plugs and cables doesn't matter much. A cable hole in the rear edge of the worktop or surround may not be acceptable or possible. if so, 2018 Belkin Insight are smaller and neater than the older models (still a bit bulky) and work with NEST or some other home automation. They are relatively expensive though.


----------



## cloughy

Typically I've got stuck doing the simplest of tasks! trying to lubricate the lever on my bianca.

Why is the cam so hard to locate?! to my eye the lower pin is sticking out more which I think is making it impossible to locate the pin the the neutral position

Does it look normal?


----------



## cloughy

Scratch that, I've done it 

Top pin had a slight bit of give and a light tap with pin hammer did the trick.

Was crapping myself for a while with the thought of no coffee.


----------



## DavecUK

It's harder because lelit took a different approach to the one I did on the Vesuvius design, to disable the pre-infusion function on the E61


----------



## cloughy

I see  hasn't cured the problem I had so might have to lube it again. The lever is really notchy on the first pull after a shot, after the first pull it's back to being smooth again, it's really odd

Also if I leave the machine for 15-20 after the shot that first pull on the lever is smooth


----------



## DavecUK

cloughy said:


> I see  hasn't cured the problem I had so might have to lube it again. The lever is really notchy on the first pull after a shot, after the first pull it's back to being smooth again, it's really odd
> 
> Also if I leave the machine for 15-20 after the shot that first pull on the lever is smooth


Strange, I don't have this problem (well didn't when the prototype was on the counter), it's in storage in my collection at the moment.


----------



## cloughy

It only started happening after I used puly caff! not my finest hour.

The cam was pretty dry when I took it out, think it might just take several uses for the lube to work its way around.

Just done another shot and it was much smoother


----------



## Jony

Yes because it's stripped all the coffee oils away, then you grease the cam after the puly cafe, machine isn't that old is it.


----------



## DavecUK

2 things.

1 Parts must be dry before cam n followers lubed, also cocktail stick and lube where followers slide!

2 if cam is hard to get located with lever on and at 45 degrees, simply loosen bottom part of E61 a tad


----------



## Jony

I used a darning needle


----------



## cloughy

Jony said:


> Yes because it's stripped all the coffee oils away, then you grease the cam after the puly cafe, machine isn't that old is it.


Nope, 6 weeks old I think. Now that I know I can do the process confidently I might do it again in a couple of weeks


----------



## kusmi

cloughy said:


> Nope, 6 weeks old I think. Now that I know I can do the process confidently I might do it again in a couple of weeks


You could do a video, so we can learn how to diasemble the group on a Lelit


----------



## Graham J

> Nope, 6 weeks old I think. Now that I know I can do the process confidently I might do it again in a couple of weeks


Following in your slipstream! I'll leave the backflushing alone for a while yet, I reckon. Apart from an easily fixed water leak my Bianca has been cranking out 8-12 shots a day trouble free so far.

Enough variables that its always tempting to try another shot to experiment, which keeps pushing the usage up...


----------



## Stanic

1:50


----------



## Rho

@DavecUK I noticed in your profile that you have the Izzo Duetto, along with the Bianca prototype. How would you compare these two machines? The Duetto seems like a solid machine (been around for a while, multiple revisions, various improvements over time, etc) while the Bianca seems high quality but perhaps unrefined. Would you recommend one over the other to someone upgrading from a BDB?


----------



## DavecUK

Rho said:


> @DavecUK I noticed in your profile that you have the Izzo Duetto, along with the Bianca prototype. How would you compare these two machines? The Duetto seems like a solid machine (been around for a while, multiple revisions, various improvements over time, etc) while the Bianca seems high quality but perhaps unrefined. Would you recommend one over the other to someone upgrading from a BDB?


It's tricky I of course own both machines, I got the Bianca to add to my collection of dual boilers, mainly because it's unusual and quite pretty. From a raw engineering standpoint, the Vesuvius is really built, thick high quality stainless, lots of space inside, gear pump that gives control over pressure and is repeatable.

The Bianca, more delicate, undeniably pretty, some clever features...able to do a very low flow preinfusion shot like a slayer, that the Vesuvius can't quite match, although it comes close. However what the V can do with pressure on a repeatable basis is astounding. For me the V is my daily driver, but it's whatever floats your boat really. Even with the forum deals from time to time, depending on PTFE or Sainless Steel pipework becomes £300 to £500 more than a Bianca. Both machines come with a lot of standard equipment....you have to decide what fits your lifestyle best. I don't think I can advise you easily. They will both be fantastic machines....you will own either happily for decades?

Oops just noticed you said Duetto....yah I own one of those as well because I sort of designed it....Bianca definitely over the Duetto, not even a contest!


----------



## Graham J

For Lelit Bianca owners and anyone else so interested, there are some developing threads on Home Barista that I've found useful and interesting:

https://www.home-barista.com/reviews/lelit-bianca-review-t54489.html

https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/lelit-bianca-user-experience-t54490.html

We've had the Bianca available a few weeks longer in UK, than customers in the U.S. , So DaveC has shared some data from his pre-launch work (and ownership) and so have I. As a new user with 300+ Bianca shots in place that hardly makes me expert, but other responders on the threads are open minded (generally!) and offer good responses.

If you're interested in profiling and espresso machine engineering, this thread is a lot of fun and I read it for some months (it takes a while) before buying a Bianca:

https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/my-long-and-rambling-path-to-preinfusion-pressure-profiling-t49539.html

- might be good to start at the end and work backwards....


----------



## TTM

I'm close to taking the plunge on one of these. I'd assumed I'd be looking to BB for the purchase, but noticed that Lelit sell direct for £1600. Obviously I want a proper warranty and ease if it comes to needing anything fixed, so would that price mean that isn't offered if one were to purchase direct from Lelit?


----------



## Dylan

It's actually sold by Espresso Underground rather than direct from Lelit. You can email Peter on [email protected] - he is fairly responsive.

Bella Barista have an absolutely stellar reputation and fantastic after sales support, but it's quite a bit more expensive and Espresso Underground have a good rep themselves, although I dont think they have supplied a lot of machines to the con/prosumer market.


----------



## cloughy

As above, I bought mine from BB and the service was fantastic, first machine I wasn't happy with and they sent another out the next day. I was surprised they did that, many other companies wouldn't of.


----------



## TTM

Yep, I'm well aware of how good BB's reputation is. However, the price difference isn't insignificant, so was hoping someone had experience of purchasing via Espresso Underground.

I think I'll drop them a line and see what they say re warranty and after sales.


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

fyi i spotted the bargain price at lelit-uk site also, and was tempted, but the price has now been corrected to £1800. So no meaningful saving over BB price. Only benefit is lelit-uk has stock.

FYI I bought a single boiler machine from lelit-uk and found them helpful.



TTM said:


> Yep, I'm well aware of how good BB's reputation is. However, the price difference isn't insignificant, so was hoping someone had experience of purchasing via Espresso Underground.
> 
> I think I'll drop them a line and see what they say re warranty and after sales.


----------



## DavecUK

TonyCoffeeNewbie said:


> fyi i spotted the bargain price at lelit-uk site also, and was tempted, but the price has now been corrected to £1800. So no meaningful saving over BB price. Only benefit is lelit-uk has stock.
> 
> FYI I bought a single boiler machine from lelit-uk and found them helpful.


Lets tell it how it is. I have no idea how good or not Espresso Underground are. I do know for a fact that when you buy from Bella Barista they have your back 100%. You get a full 2 year fully transferrable warranty, tremendous customer support and proper backup of a bricks and mortar company with significant resources in place. You also get the goodwill and interest in your purchase when you go back for help/advice perhaps 3 or 4 years later. Warranty packages are now available as well I believe to extend the 2 year period and perhaps other packages, that can be purchased and if I remember rightly, they are good value (or were when I last looked). It's easy to miss them because they are presented at checkout/in your basket in a drop down list. You can move from 2 years (free), to 3 years for £110 and 4 years for £180 based on the cost of the Bianca. I think for these type of machines thats great value and gives you 4 years total peace of mind.

The retailer you buy from and the support you get are critical when buying these machines...everybody wants to save a few quid, but they soon come crying on here when something goes wrong and unlike yourself, don't ask us first. There are a couple of poor vendors. As hinted at in my Hitler skit.


----------



## TTM

Well, with Espresso Underground having upped the price it means I don't need to even worry about the decision anymore. Bella Barista it is.

Sadly, out of stock.


----------



## DavecUK

TTM said:


> Well, with Espresso Underground having upped the price it means I don't need to even worry about the decision anymore. Bella Barista it is.
> 
> Sadly, out of stock.


It didn't say that on the website when I looked, perhaps they got more just come in?


----------



## TTM

You're right, two appeared in stock after I'd last looked. Trigger pulled.


----------



## DavecUK

TTM said:


> You're right, two appeared in stock after I'd last looked. Trigger pulled.


You have an interesting & enjoyable time ahead, did u buy extra warranty?


----------



## TTM

I haven't, but still can. Two years seems good, but would you recommend extending?


----------



## DavecUK

It depends on how handy you are.


----------



## TTM

I'm happy enough to get stuck in to anything mechanical, but nothing electrical. What's the expected lifespan of a rotary pump?


----------



## DavecUK

TTM said:


> I'm happy enough to get stuck in to anything mechanical, but nothing electrical. What's the expected lifespan of a rotary pump?


About the same as a vibe pump in the domestic environment, 7-10 years....the other thing about warranty is if you wanted to ever sell it on in 3 years, you still have 1 year transferable. It's a very personal choice, something I think olnly the person themselves can decide on. A coffee machine is a very different sort of appliance to a fridge or TV though.


----------



## rynogee

FWIW I had a lelit pl60v2 DB machine for several years and it was fantastic. non e61 DB with great steam and awesome in cup results. really good value. i think it's a really underrated brand, but can't speak for the Bianca.


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

OK well after many months of investigation, reading reviews, thinking about what I want and considering space in the kitchen I decided on an ECM Mechanika slim... so today I went to Bella Barista and bought this....and couldn't be happier


----------



## selmerfudd

DavecUK said:


> Oh I should have said I am actually buying the prototype to add to my collection. I like to have machines that are in some way "special". I would have kept the Bellman as well if it wasn't so flipping expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> *Duetto 0001* (first preproduction and a machine I had a huge involvement with creating)
> 
> 
> *Vesuvius (just special in every way, including the guy who built it for me). It's also my "every day carry" so to speak. I don't believe there will ever be another machine quite like it*
> 
> Lelit Bianca (pure left field innovation and a prototype, one of a kind and I just kinda Liked it, just something about it)
> 
> Melitta Varianza Best BTC I ever used for the Money and better than many £1200 BTC machines, certainly better than the Market leader! When I'm feeling Lazy in the summmer...out it comes. Constant flow of coffee to the Patio.
> 
> 
> *I am also hoping to add the damaged little Minima to this list*. It's again VERY special, it's been mistreated by the couriers and I really don't think will stand a second journey and needs a good loving home.
> 
> It's ridiculous isn't it, other people collect stamps n stuff and I collect coffee machines. I sort of think I should have never sold the R58, and my Quickmill Verona, but there you go, people were in need and the problem with collecting coffee machines....you can only have so many!
> 
> Oh and I would have 2 bloody Niche grinders If I could...one White and one Black!!


Hi Green Bean -i am green on this site ,but espresso has been in my veins for decades -I am Italian - So I see that you own both ,,so please help me out ,,I am also deciding between the Vesuvius and the Bianca by lelit -any thoughts --money is not the main consideration. How do the machiens compare , and especially the results in the cup. Is the manual ability of the Bianca equal in results to the programmability of the Vesuvius -thanks for your help


----------



## selmerfudd

Hi Dave-i am green to this site ,but espresso has been in my veins for decades -I am Italian - So I see that you own both ,,so please help me out ,,I am also deciding between the Vesuvius and the Bianca by lelit -any thoughts --money is not the main consideration. How do the machiens compare , and especially the results in the cup. Is the manual ability of the Bianca equal in results to the programmability of the Vesuvius -thanks for your help


----------



## Jony

Well I have had coffee from both machines, and seen both in action I prefer the Vesuvius that's my opinion the V is pretty silent. I am sure @DavecUK will help you out. Have you seen the ones in the for sale area


----------



## tonerei

I would have thought the Vesuvius especially at the price in the for sale section currently. The Lelit is intriguing and is one I think I would like to go for if moving up. The paddle and programmable preinfusion seems to make it a great toy for tinkering with your shots. The one query I would have is the long term quality and reliability of the Lelit. Time will tell. Even though the movable water tank is useful I don't think it looks good. The ECM, Quickmill appear at least in photo's to me to be a higher quality finish but that paddle option is hard to resist. I hope a lot of the manufacturers get on board with those type of features going forward


----------



## Graham J

Bella Barista gave me a good few hours support onsite, comparing the ECM's, Vesuvius and Bianca amongst others. The internal machine design and choice of pump, boilers, elements and GICAR etc are very similar, so reliability is likely to be similar, with the possible exception of the Vesuvius, which is somewhat left field now. But DaveC is very happy with his!

I was initially put off the Bianca somewhat, by its thinner gauge bodywork and rolled edges, compared with the heavier gauge stainless and well structured chassis of the ECM/rocket designs. However, these are not road vehicles and heavy gauge stainless is meaningless to the creation of a great espresso.

When we compared shots from Bella Barista's in-house La Marzocco Strada with the same grind on the standard E61's and then dialled the Bianca a little, there was a significant difference, with the Bianca able to emulate the LM Strada flavours, whilst the others couldn't be adjusted so accurately or easily and produced less flavours. Primarily, the Bianca is a high quality, fully adjustable machine, for those who like to adjust their settings to different roasts and finds and find lots of flavour. You can just run it as a standard E61, but that is missing its real capability.

Obviously I've made my choice and after 600 shots now, I'm very pleased and rally enjoying the Bianca. I can't personally comment on the Vesuvius, but you can read detailed reviews of both machines by experts on the Home-Barista website and also by Dave C.


----------



## Mesmer

Can you share more info on how Strada vs the E61s compared for shot extraction? I mean did the extractions run faster on the E61 with the same grind/dose?

What adjustments did you make on the Bianca in terms of flow and temperature in order to get the same flavors?


----------



## kautivo

now I have doubts if I buy lelit bianca or Vesuvius model Christmas offer...

Any suggestions?

Thanks


----------



## Graham J

> Can you share more info on how Strada vs the E61s compared for shot extraction? I mean did the extractions run faster on the E61 with the same grind/dose?
> 
> What adjustments did you make on the Bianca in terms of flow and temperature in order to get the same flavors?


Sure - briefly, the LM Strada has adjustable pressure preinfusion with its paddle on the grouphead. The BB staff used this to get the low pressure start to p.i. that they found best with their own roast. Strada p.i. was about 10 secs. Total shot time was about 35 secs. Bianca has the same facilities, so a similar paddle swing left was used to hold p.i. pressure down over 15 secs, with a slow rise from 1-4bar. total bianca shot time was about 40 seconds.

The E61's on the same grind/dose were faster shots, using the machines built-in E61 p.i., which is about 4-6 seconds. Shot times were similar around 25 seconds. We didn't measure extraction in the showroom and I relied on BB's experienced staff to pull the Strada and E61 shots. The taste differences suggested that the standard E61 shots were under-extracted to me and to the BB staff.

Temperature adjustment is simple on Bianca and the other E61's but to relate Bianca temp. to LM Strada temp. is not straightforward, because the Strada has a saturated brew head. My local roaster (Forge Roasters, Sheffield) runs an LM Strada for roast recipe testing and we've found that my Bianca needs 2-3C higher settings then their Strada, for the same recipe. There's good data on Bianca temperature setup and stability in the machine test on Home-Barista. I've shared my machine data with their testers and got useful input.


----------



## Teejay

After buying a Sage DTP last year, I'm getting the urge already for a Bianca, thought I may be able to resist for another year. After reading through many pages of reviews etc. on the HB site and most of those seem to love it. It's a 4 hour drive so planning on going down over the weekend and docking with BB on the 17th.


----------



## Graham J

Sounds like it could be a pre-christmas selfie!

I did a useful comparison at BB, before buying, with the Vesuvius and their in house LM Strada, which showed that the Bianca can profile at least as well as even more expensive machines.

I see on H-B that one or two people have added a needle valve to their Sage, so that could be a lower cost option if you enjoy machine modification.

But the Bianca has a lot of other excellent features that you'll doubtless enjoy and a lot of those have been already mentioned in the reviews. Power management is clever and saves a few pounds of electricity monthly, compared with previous generation machines. Cleaning and maintenance is easy and I'm anticipating a long life, as it uses well tried mainstream components and has a very nice build quality. There's a lot of detail work, around seals, rubber grommets and edges to ensure it stays looking good and undamaged.


----------



## P.B.

kautivo said:


> now I have doubts if I buy lelit bianca or Vesuvius model Christmas offer...
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Thanks


Me too, same question


----------



## Teejay

I think there must several of us in the same situation. I have a Bianca "put aside" for me with BellaBarista so the choice may have been made for me. Just need to sell the Sage, seems like a quiet market at the moment for them second hand.


----------



## Kilo

I enjoy my Bianca very much. However, there is one thing that worries me a little. Every time a solonoid valve switches on there is a rather violent metal noise from the switch clicking on and of. Even the whole machine shudders a little. My old Vivaldi valves made noises, but much less. Also I find the machine not very silent at all. Pump noise and I think some resonance.

Are other users having similar experiences?


----------



## Kilo

Maybe I should add that I have my Bianca plumbed. With pressure reduced to 3 bar.


----------



## Graham J

> I enjoy my Bianca very much. However, there is one thing that worries me a little. Every time a solonoid valve switches on there is a rather violent metal noise from the switch clicking on and of. Even the whole machine shudders a little. My old Vivaldi valves made noises, but much less. Also I find the machine not very silent at all. Pump noise and I think some resonance.
> 
> Are other users having similar experiences?[/quote
> 
> Mine is quieter than other machines that I've worked around. The pump and boilers are rubber damped and the wooden feet have rubber seating rings, which all helps. It's not plumbed in, so there's no associated "water hammer" as the solenoids open up on start.
> 
> I can sometimes hear a thump from the machine when the WEMO brings it on first thing in the morning. This would undoubtedly be louder if it was 3 bar hitting the pipework. On H.B. I see that Jim Schulman who is doing a long term Bianca review rates it as a quiet, smooth machine, but I'm not aware of how his Bianca is plumbed.
> 
> If Dave C picks up on this, he has more machine experience than most, in order to judge its relative noisiness.


----------



## Kilo

I reduced the inlet pressure to 2 bar. This reduced the "water hammer" somewhat. Pump noise remains the same. Maybe, I should try out the machine in tankfeed operation to see if the noisy operation has to do with plumbing it in...


----------



## Graham J

Kilo said:


> I reduced the inlet pressure to 2 bar. This reduced the "water hammer" somewhat. Pump noise remains the same. Maybe, I should try out the machine in tankfeed operation to see if the noisy operation has to do with plumbing it in...


That's a good idea. At least you are starting from a standard machine "experience" then and it certainly shouldn't be much louder than your old Vivaldi.

Is it sitting on a solid surface that's not prone to movement or sympathetic vibration? - I guess if it is the same place as your last machine that should be covered. Also you could verify maximum pump pressure during brewing or when the blind basket is in place - should be around 10-10.5 bar. maximum. This is easy to adjust if needed.


----------



## Kilo

Problem solved. Only I don't exactly know how or why. I disconnected the plumbing, I opened the casing and checked for lose connections or items touching, nothing obvious to be seen. Rebuilded everything. Surprise... no loud solenoid anymore and a softy whirring pump. Happy!


----------



## ChrisBy

Hi! New and happy Bianca owner here. One thing (of many) I am wondering about is what the rest of you decided to do with the baskets that come with it. Did you stick with them or did you go down the VST route? For those who did: was there a significant difference?


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

Kilo said:


> Problem solved. Only I don't exactly know how or why. I disconnected the plumbing, I opened the casing and checked for lose connections or items touching, nothing obvious to be seen. Rebuilded everything. Surprise... no loud solenoid anymore and a softy whirring pump. Happy!


Thanks for sharing that, I am tempted to do the same, as i think a simple disassemble and careful reassemble would improve thr quietness of my Bianca also.


----------



## Graham J

Kilo said:


> Problem solved. Only I don't exactly know how or why. I disconnected the plumbing, I opened the casing and checked for lose connections or items touching, nothing obvious to be seen. Rebuilded everything. Surprise... no loud solenoid anymore and a softy whirring pump. Happy!


Good news! Thats a classic result from disconnecting and reinstalling plumbing, if you have a partial airlock. Sounds like you have bled out or removed the airlock in the process. Your final comment also confirms that they are a quiet machine, as reviewed and that's certainly been my experience.


----------



## Graham J

ChrisBy said:


> Hi! New and happy Bianca owner here. One thing (of many) I am wondering about is what the rest of you decided to do with the baskets that come with it. Did you stick with them or did you go down the VST route? For those who did: was there a significant difference?


I did some research on replacing the Lelit baskets, but after coming close to buying the set of Decent Espresso baskets, I was dissuaded by all the test work on baskets that Jim Shulman did, over on H-B. Summing up, unless you are particularly dedicated to light roasts only, you end up spending a large sum on three baskets and have to regularly swap them when changing to medium or dark roasts, when in fact the standard basket is a very good compromise. If you are dedicated largely to light roasts, then it could be a good swap. But they don't extract well outside of a narrow range of roast.

BTW, if you haven't read them already, his review of Bianca and the user experience thread on H-B re very useful.

I'll be interested to read about your experience with replacement baskets, if you go ahead.


----------



## ChrisBy

Thanks a lot, Graham! I had read some of the posts on HB, but not all. Shall rectify that when I have the time and stay off the basket purchases in the mean.


----------



## Teejay

These look to be selling like hotcakes at Bella Barista, they had 9 last week now they are down to only 2!


----------



## Stanic

It's a good value


----------



## kmkuk

Teejay said:


> These look to be selling like hotcakes at Bella Barista, they had 9 last week now they are down to only 2!


I am guilty for that, bought Bianca from Bella Barista Wednesday, very impressed with the machine it is a thing of beauty. Claudette was very helpful and showed me how to play with the machine.


----------



## DavecUK

It's a very nice machine.


----------



## kmkuk

DavecUK said:


> It's a very nice machine.


I want to say big thank to you Dave as I firs came across Bianca and Lelit thanks to your review and your experience with the machine. I am very happy with it and it is such a great value for money..

We spoke with Claudette about the machine and I mentioned my interest for Lelit thanks to you and the forum. Claudette hold very high regards for you as well


----------



## DavecUK

kmkuk said:


> I want to say big thank to you Dave as I firs came across Bianca and Lelit thanks to your review and your experience with the machine. I am very happy with it and it is such a great value for money..


I think if the reviews get people asking the right questions, even if they don't buy the machine, it's a good thing. Sometimes my independent work with other companies does strain relations, but that's the nature of being independent and not an employee... It's also part of my value in a way.


----------



## alex68

My Bianka has just been ordered. Hurry up only 1 left at BB.


----------



## Teejay

alex68 said:


> My Bianka has just been ordered. Hurry up only 1 left at BB.


Deed done, Bianca sits in my van for the long (well 4 hours) journey home.









Still waiting in the box until I get back from a few days in the Lakes.


----------



## alex68

I long for it possibly tomorrow ..


----------



## olivier

Another new Bianca owner here.

Had been following it closely since it was announced as it filled many of my criteria: some form of control over the extraction process, use of mostly standard parts, not too deep (thanks to alternative tank placement), and rotary pump.

DaveC's review and other seemingly positive impressions read here and elsewhere helped me pulled the trigger.

I didn't think I would ever spend so much on an espresso machine (I should have known better as I have other hobbies...), but I'm 100% satisfied so far. I found it really well built with nice attention to details and nice finishing throughout. No bad surprise when unboxing I thought BB and Lelit's packaging were quite robust. Don't know if they've changed something since Dave's negative comments about this a few months ago or if I got lucky.

Performance-wise I can unfortunately only compare it to my Gaggia Classic. Paired with a Niche grinder the results I got from the first shot were better than 99% of what I could achieve with my former machine. I expected it to be more forgiving, but not that much!

I experimented a bit with flow control and couldn't help myself pulling shot after shot to see differences between profiles, and the effect depending on the beans and roast. I think I've barely scratched the surface. Definitely looking forward to playing again with it the next few days!

The only thing that didn't work so well for me is frothing milk. I think it's due to the machine being more powerful than what I'm used to. I end up heating the milk too much before I'm able to generate good foam. I'll work on my skills and hopefully will be able to get it right!

In short I can see myself using this machine for many many years, and foresee a huge espresso consumption increase in my future, so thanks to everyone who has provided feedback on this thread.


----------



## Graham J

olivier said:


> I experimented a bit with flow control and couldn't help myself pulling shot after shot to see differences between profiles, and the effect depending on the beans and roast. I think I've barely scratched the surface. Definitely looking forward to playing again with it the next few days!
> 
> The only thing that didn't work so well for me is frothing milk. I think it's due to the machine being more powerful than what I'm used to. I end up heating the milk too much before I'm able to generate good foam. I'll work on my skills and hopefully will be able to get it right!.


Yes, it can be difficult to know where to start with Bianca, but what you are describing seems to be a good place! Getting a roast that you like dialled in by using the "DaveC normalising shot" and moving from there without changing grind or dose is a good start.

I'll post a description in the next day or so of a shot that works well for Bianca, when used to develop a medium roast with profiling. I shared it with Bianca users on the H-B thread and it was well received and not too technically demanding.

Moving steaming technique on from a Gaggia Classic can be a challenge especially if you were using the Panarello wand. But starting with the single hole nozzle supplied with your Bianca and just having a short (1 or 2 seconds) turf with the wand tip just below the surface, works well to get going. Then just sink the tip a little deeper to get a quiet swirl going on and all will be well - micro foam!


----------



## ChrisBy

I kept blowing milk out of my smaller pitchers on 130 degrees, so backed it off a bit (125 at first, now 126). That helped and the microfoam is quite amazing compared to my previous machines.

Which temperature for the steam boiler are you other Bianca owners using?


----------



## DavecUK

ChrisBy said:


> I kept blowing milk out of my smaller pitchers on 130 degrees, so backed it off a bit (125 at first, now 126). That helped and the microfoam is quite amazing compared to my previous machines.
> 
> Which temperature for the steam boiler are you other Bianca owners using?


If you had a DE1, you wouldn't have that problem at all


----------



## ChrisBy

DavecUK said:


> If you had a DE1, you wouldn't have that problem at all


Why's that?


----------



## DavecUK

ChrisBy said:


> Why's that?


Whooosh and it sailed overhead....







....ah well<sigh></sigh>


----------



## ChrisBy

DavecUK said:


> Whooosh and it sailed overhead....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....ah well<sigh></sigh>


Oh well, didn't get around googling "DE1 steaming" then.


----------



## Graham J

DavecUK said:


> If you had a DE1, you wouldn't have that problem at all


Do I detect a certain ironic tone here Dave? Or are you just getting bored with reading how wonderful DE1 are.....


----------



## Graham J

ChrisBy said:


> I kept blowing milk out of my smaller pitchers on 130 degrees, so backed it off a bit (125 at first, now 126). That helped and the microfoam is quite amazing compared to my previous machines.
> 
> Which temperature for the steam boiler are you other Bianca owners using?


I'm using 129C steam boiler set temperature. This is about 1.7bar on the Bianca gauge . I chose this setup because I'm usually using a small Cafelat pitcher. The three hole nozzle works well with this setup for smooth foam and speed of steaming.


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

ChrisBy said:


> I kept blowing milk out of my smaller pitchers on 130 degrees, so backed it off a bit (125 at first, now 126). That helped and the microfoam is quite amazing compared to my previous machines.
> 
> Which temperature for the steam boiler are you other Bianca owners using?


I am steaming at the default 125 degrees with the standard 2 hole tip... i find this more than sufficient for getting good microfoam. Much better than my old lelit pl041tem, which is now doing a great job of converting a friend to real coffee.


----------



## ChrisBy

Graham J said:


> I'm using 129C steam boiler set temperature. This is about 1.7bar on the Bianca gauge . I chose this setup because I'm usually using a small Cafelat pitcher. The three hole nozzle works well with this setup for smooth foam and speed of steaming.


Just had to double check the spare one, but I only have two different two hole nozzles. Are there different versions of the Bianca?


----------



## ChrisBy

Different topic: do others get that same feeling of giddiness and joy out of fooling around with the machine and having it pan out nicely?

I had an 18 g in, 110 g out shot of Kenyan at 2 bar over 2 minutes earlier today and just knowing that that kind of beverage can be made with an espresso machine is somehow fun in itself (it tasted great, which also helps, I guess).

Might be I'm just turning proper weird, though.


----------



## DavecUK

ChrisBy said:


> Different topic: do others get that same feeling of giddiness and joy out of fooling around with the machine and having it pan out nicely?
> 
> I had an 18 g in, 110 g out shot of Kenyan at 2 bar over 2 minutes earlier today and just knowing that that kind of beverage can be made with an espresso machine is somehow fun in itself (it tasted great, which also helps, I guess).
> 
> Might be I'm just turning proper weird, though.


Mine is sitting in my machine collection unused at the moment, perhaps I should get it out for a Christmas Holiday excursion....it is truly a nice feeling when it pans out well...very organic.


----------



## ChrisBy

DavecUK said:


> Mine is sitting in my machine collection unused at the moment, perhaps I should get it out for a Christmas Holiday excursion....it is truly a nice feeling when it pans out well...very organic.


Well I can see the attraction of having hands-free, repeatable profiles from a machine like the Vesuvius or a DE1, but with the Bianca - at least for the moment - it does feel a lot like being a child playing with a new toy. Also great to change shots on the fly in case flow's different than expected.


----------



## DavecUK

One of the Bianca's strengths along with slayer style stuff


----------



## Graham J

The range and real-time (during the shot) easy adjustability of the Bianca is one of the main reasons for choosing it. However, that adjustability can also be a very big space to wander around and get lost in. Here's a shot profile that allows me to reliably dial in my grind setting for different roasts and establish a base, to work out from:

I start with a medium/fine grind and dose about 16g on a darker roast or 18g on a medium/light roast. Or follow the roasters recipe if you have one. (This gives a small headspace of around 2mm for the 18g dose on Bianca which can be filled in 2-3 seconds). Begin with the paddle pointing outwards, around 90 degrees to the panel.

Starting with this paddle position, swing left after this first 2-3 seconds, or at the first sign of needle movement on the grouphead gauge. Vary the paddle position towards fully closed/ low flow, to keep the gauge creeping up to 2bar, over 5-8 seconds. This timing may be longer, if you have started with a tight or fine grind, but you'll be able to control it with the paddle position and wait for a pressure rise.

This phase of low pressure preinfusion will naturally end with the gauge pressure rising above 3 bar, as the puck fills, swells and develops resistance to flow. Drips may start at this point.Then follow the gauge pressure upwards with a slow movement of the paddle rightwards, increasing flow, but keeping the pressure under control up to 8 bar or so. If the grind is in roughly the "right" zone for control, you will be able to increase pressure and flow up to full now by paddle movement rightwards, or limit to 8 bar or so and decline at the end for a softer "lever style" shot.


----------



## Graham J

ChrisBy said:


> Just had to double check the spare one, but I only have two different two hole nozzles. Are there different versions of the Bianca?


No, it just seems that my eyesight is failing; or I've absorbed too much caffeine ..... both my Bianca steam nozzles have two holes.... I use the smaller hole size in the small Cafelat Jug, but have pressure set at 1.7bar.


----------



## Graham J

ChrisBy said:


> Different topic: do others get that same feeling of giddiness and joy out of fooling around with the machine and having it pan out nicely?
> 
> I had an 18 g in, 110 g out shot of Kenyan at 2 bar over 2 minutes earlier today and just knowing that that kind of beverage can be made with an espresso machine is somehow fun in itself (it tasted great, which also helps, I guess).
> 
> Might be I'm just turning proper weird, though.


Well in that case it's the weird Bianca club! I've had my for four months now and run through 600+ shots. It's still as much fun as ever. But I do keep a shot profile record, so that I can develop and repeat. I think the ability to change the shot as it develops, real time, makes it a lot of fun and very enjoyable to use.


----------



## DavecUK

Just remember the balanced bypass of the pump is not intended to "loose" 12+ bar by recirculation for multiple minutes at a time!


----------



## Graham J

DavecUK said:


> Just remember the balanced bypass of the pump is not intended to "loose" 12+ bar by recirculation for multiple minutes at a time!


It's a timely warning. I've recently posted a similar shot over on the H-B Bianca users thread and it seems that quite a few Bianca users have found this range and are using it regularly. I did mention concern for its effect on pump life. But I'll want to continue using it from time to time.

If it is this pump fitted to Bianca: https://www.fluidotech.it/site/assets/files/1302/po-70-400-brass-rotary-vane-pump-datasheet-1.pdf then it is designed for high pressure and low flow. We are using 50-60 seconds to drip and then low flow for 60-90 seconds to complete a 40-80ml shot.


----------



## Teejay

DavecUK said:


> Just remember the balanced bypass of the pump is not intended to "loose" 12+ bar by recirculation for multiple minutes at a time!


What does this mean in layman's terms. What are the dos and don'ts here?


----------



## kennyboy993

Is anyone running their Bianca plumbed in? If so can you comment on its behaviour around pre-infusion please?

Both with the paddle and with the solenoid based solution at the beginning of a shot.

@Kilo I think you're plumbed in aren't you?


----------



## Kilo

Yes I run the Bianca plumbed. Paddle works fine. You can stop the flow by closing the paddle. The line pressure has no influence on the behavior of the paddle. The automatic pre infusion works also as planned. The pause phase stops the flow as the solenoid closes.

One thing I find a little annoying is the sometimes loud noise of the solenoid opening, which is not there when the machine is tank fed. A bit like you can have with a washing machine. Most prominent when the steamboiler starts filling.

Bianca looks tidy without a tank at the side.


----------



## kennyboy993

Superb - thanks Kilo

Very tempted by the machine - just waiting to see when BB get their next batch in


----------



## Teejay

Has anyone used the paddle in anger yet, wiliing to share thoughts etc. I've had mine 2 and a bit months and not had a lot of paddle action. Only once when I had a new bean that I must have ground too fine. I noticed the drip drip, so reduced the paddle to 7 or 8 oclock and the a steady stream was produced. It tasted fab but since it was a fluke its been a bit hit and miss. Admittedly I've not normalised the grind as Dave has mentioned. Slightly confused by it all at the mo.

However, as a general E61 stick the portafilter in and get somehting tasty out its been great.

Someone must have some notes to share. ;-)


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

Teejay said:


> Has anyone used the paddle in anger yet, wiliing to share thoughts etc. I've had mine 2 and a bit months and not had a lot of paddle action. Only once when I had a new bean that I must have ground too fine. I noticed the drip drip, so reduced the paddle to 7 or 8 oclock and the a steady stream was produced. It tasted fab but since it was a fluke its been a bit hit and miss. Admittedly I've not normalised the grind as Dave has mentioned. Slightly confused by it all at the mo.
> 
> However, as a general E61 stick the portafilter in and get somehting tasty out its been great.
> 
> Someone must have some notes to share. ;-)


I am not sure if i am doing it correctly..but i certainly use it every shot. My current approach is to set the paddle half open at the start and have a 7 second preinfusion with an 8 second pause. Once the pump restarts I wait until i get the first drips, typically at 2 bar, then i open the paddle until i see 9 bar on the puck, and either let it stay there or ramp it down. Still not convinced ramping down at end makes a huge difference in cup...but i like having a slow flow rate at start for a long preinfusion.

i would be interested what other people fo as well.

Tony


----------



## matomoto

Hi i've got bianca since June 2018, I began to notice changes in the taste of my shots with the same routine. I removed the pressure gauge and installed a temperature clock like Eric's. I observed 2 problems, the temperature was 4 or 5 degrees higher than the selected one.

Which I can correct through the Pid.

The second and most important problem is that the thermosiphon of the e61 is not thermally stable, which conditions that the extraction fears a different temperature or another.40 minutes after turning on the temperature of the thermosyphon, varying sometimes being 85 degrees and other 90 degrees

This week I will have a professional temperature reader and I can do more temperature readings

If someone can help me or guide me. @DavecUK

Thanks

Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


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## DavecUK

It would be helpful to know how the machine is set up in the LCC (all the settings). Without this I have no idea.

Also degrees C or F and which country /retailer


----------



## matomoto

DavecUK said:


> It would be helpful to know how the machine is set up in the LCC (all the settings). Without this I have no idea.
> 
> Also degrees C or F and which country /retailer


Hi dave,

KPc = 0.4

Klc =0. 04

Kdc=12

Bc=15

Ec =13 or 14, if i dont modify very low extraction temperature

Celsius

Spain 220v

Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


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## np123

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the day to day use of this machine - would anyone be so kind as to help me please. Because of the paddle, does it mean that on occasion, when you didn't want to stand and adjust the flow, you couldnt just extract a shot. What I am really asking is, if the other half wanted to pull a shot, do they need to use the paddle or could they just use the lever to start/stop. I'm assuming the answer is no, and that you need to move the paddle to increase pressure/flow?


----------



## DavecUK

matomoto said:


> Hi dave,
> 
> KPc = 0.4
> 
> Klc =0. 04
> 
> Kdc=12
> 
> Bc=15
> 
> Ec =13 or 14, if i dont modify very low extraction temperature
> 
> Celsius
> 
> Spain 220v
> 
> Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


All looks good apart from EC which should be 10. The machine must warm up for 30-40 minutes, 10C is the correct setting....too high a temperature as you are using will not give correct results and the group head thermometer is not the way to monitor for correct temperature. I measure it 3 mm within a simulated coffee puck.

If you are getting inconsistent E61 temperatures you have a small leak somewhere in the brew circuit, enough to cause the boiler level to stop slightly. One of the issues with almost all vertical boiler machine that have their thermosyphon take off on the top of the boiler is a slight drop in water level causes thermosyphon inconsistency and if it goes down more...stall. As any of these machines age, these maintenance issues become more apparent and performance limiting until the source of the poor sealing is identified and rectified. *This is common to every vertical boiler dual boiler machine I have ever used *apart from machines where the take of is at the sides, *or the ACS Minima where I ensured the design places the top thermosyphon tube at least 3 cm into the boiler, using a special fitting made for the purpose.* Fortunately I have a lot of influence with the ACS designs and it's the reason the production machine took so long to come to market from beta 1.

P.S. If the thermosyphon is stalling slightly or a lot...it will of course negatively affect brew temperatures.


----------



## DavecUK

np123 said:


> I'm just trying to wrap my head around the day to day use of this machine - would anyone be so kind as to help me please. Because of the paddle, does it mean that on occasion, when you didn't want to stand and adjust the flow, you couldnt just extract a shot. What I am really asking is, if the other half wanted to pull a shot, do they need to use the paddle or could they just use the lever to start/stop. I'm assuming the answer is no, and that you need to move the paddle to increase pressure/flow?


It's all in my use rguide and this is specifically covered?


----------



## np123

DavecUK said:


> It's all in my use rguide and this is specifically covered?


Hi Dave,

I dont own one as yet, I was just considering one and it dawned on me I didnt know how it would work.

Thanks

Nick


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

Hi Nick

My good lady wife uses my Bianca all the time, I just leave the paddle fully open and you can use it like any other machine. I do have the preinfusion programmed, so that just happens automatically, and my wife has on several occasions commented on how easy it is to use.

i hope that helps.

Tony


----------



## DavecUK

np123 said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I dont own one as yet, I was just considering one and it dawned on me I didnt know how it would work.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Nick


That explains it then.


----------



## matomoto

DavecUK said:


> All looks good apart from EC which should be 10. The machine must warm up for 30-40 minutes, 10C is the correct setting....too high a temperature as you are using will not give correct results and the group head thermometer is not the way to monitor for correct temperature. I measure it 3 mm within a simulated coffee puck.
> 
> If you are getting inconsistent E61 temperatures you have a small leak somewhere in the brew circuit, enough to cause the boiler level to stop slightly. One of the issues with almost all vertical boiler machine that have their thermosyphon take off on the top of the boiler is a slight drop in water level causes thermosyphon inconsistency and if it goes down more...stall. As any of these machines age, these maintenance issues become more apparent and performance limiting until the source of the poor sealing is identified and rectified. *This is common to every vertical boiler dual boiler machine I have ever used *apart from machines where the take of is at the sides, *or the ACS Minima where I ensured the design places the top thermosyphon tube at least 3 cm into the boiler, using a special fitting made for the purpose.* Fortunately I have a lot of influence with the ACS designs and it's the reason the production machine took so long to come to market from beta 1.
> 
> P.S. If the thermosyphon is stalling slightly or a lot...it will of course negatively affect brew temperatures.


Thanks for the response Dave, as for the Ec if I do not modify it to 13 or 14 the temperatures are very low. Within a short time I will try to have more reliable readings with a more precise thermometer and measuring from the portafilter.(fluke t3000) I have to think about how to install the temperature probe in the portafilter

I have contacted lelit and sent me to the distributor in Spain.

Is there any way I can observe if there is water loss or other anomaly?









Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


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## DavecUK

I don't know, all I do know is my settings are absolutely correct for a properly working Bianca. it has a large thermosyphon pipe and you don't want it too hot. I did 3 or 4 days just temperature testing. However, it's your machine, your tastebuds and used your way. If you like an offset of 13 or 14, then that's fine.


----------



## matomoto

DavecUK said:


> I don't know, all I do know is my settings are absolutely correct for a properly working Bianca. it has a large thermosyphon pipe and you don't want it too hot. I did 3 or 4 days just temperature testing. However, it's your machine, your tastebuds and used your way. If you like an offset of 13 or 14, then that's fine.


Thank you for your time dave, when I have more results I will let you know.

Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## ChrisBy

I seem to have the same issue as matomoto with regards to the offset being wrong, though I unfortunately don't have any measurements...

When I tried to find the boiling point at my shower screen, (used a guideline I found on hb which in turn was based on instructions from Dave for the Izzo Alex Duetto), I had to go up to 103/4 degrees.

Based on taste, I have set my brew boiler (factory PID settings) to 96 degrees Celsius for medium/dark roasted espresso.


----------



## DavecUK

@ChrisBy what exactly was your protocol.


----------



## ChrisBy

Let it heat up with portafilter in place for 45 minutes or so. Start at 99 deg C, then work upwards in 1 deg steps until 104 deg C with 20 minutes per step to stabilize.

I've created a YouTube account and have tried to put together a video to show the results. Please be aware that a) the video is showing the steps backwards 104 down to 99 (never tried editing video before and messed it up) and b) I might be misinterpreting everything.

Hope this works, am looking forward to your comments.

http://


----------



## DavecUK

I'm not sure I watched on my phone and it still looked to be boiling off at 99. The method I gave that you used is a rough and ready method. I actually measured brew temps from 91 to 97 on the prototype. I still have it as I bought it. I will review video again on the TV, perhaps they changed something in production.

It's also quite possible the brew temps are OK with the offset I recommend when in the correct range 91 to 97. It's harder and harder for the same offset as the temperature is increased.

If you and the other guy came from an HX you might have been very used to extractions at higher temperatures than you think?

Either way if an offset of 13 or 14 is doing it for you stick with it.


----------



## matomoto

Today after 40 minutes on and a 3 seconds shot ....

Ec=13






Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


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## DavecUK

You need to be a little more informative.

What was the temperature you set.

What was the paddle position

What was the flow rate

What were you using to measure the temperature

Otherwise i just see two temperature readouts and a towel?


----------



## matomoto

DavecUK said:


> You need to be a little more informative.
> 
> What was the temperature you set.
> 
> What was the paddle position
> 
> What was the flow rate
> 
> What were you using to measure the temperature
> 
> Otherwise i just see two temperature readouts and a towel?


Sorry dave

The temperature is 94 degrees with ec = 13

The paddle position is almost all open

Flow rate without filter 75 g 10seg aprox

For measure temperature use k type themocouple in a blind filter with a small hole with a small base emulating the coffee pill

The towel... Pressurized water goes a little crazy jajaja Excuse me if I'm a little sloppy

Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


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## DavecUK

matomoto said:


> Sorry dave
> 
> The temperature is 94 degrees with ec = 13
> 
> The paddle position is almost all open
> 
> Flow rate without filter 75 g 10seg aprox
> 
> For measure temperature use k type themocouple in a blind filter with a small hole with a small base emulating the coffee pill
> 
> The towel... Pressurized water goes a little crazy jajaja Excuse me if I'm a little sloppy
> 
> Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


Your equipment is different to mine, I use a simulated coffee puck with the same sort of flow, so no large initial water dead space as with an empty portafilter. I can't imagine I am 3C out and really (if you think about it) if there is a measurement error, the error would be a low error, not a high error. However it would appear that I am measuring a higher temperature than you for the same offset, which is unlikely unless they changed something about the later production machines thermosyphon...which i doubt why would they..I also doubt it because the temperature checks I repeated on a production machine? Or perhaps they found a temperature offset or display programming bug and told no one. I did the whole series of temperature checks twice during testing because 10 was low for an offset, but it did have a large top thermosyphon pipe. I was even tempted to suggest 11 on the PID to err on the safe side, but didn't because it was fine.

*Like I say though, if it's working for you, keep using it.* I built my testing devices about 15 years ago, before the scace 1 or 2 was a concept and I always used a simulated coffee puck and I have replaced my thermocouples a few times over the years, just in case. it's also worked correctly on every other machine I have ever tested and the V recommended offset is from using it?


----------



## matomoto

I know that the device can improve a lot, with time I will try to do something better. What seems obvious is that the thermosyphon does not work properly.

I have removed the top cover of bianca and I have not seen water filtration or dry residue

Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


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## DavecUK

matomoto said:


> I know that the device can improve a lot, with time I will try to do something better. What seems obvious is that the thermosyphon does not work properly.
> 
> I have removed the top cover of bianca and I have not seen water filtration or dry residue
> 
> Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


Can't be sure about that either...perhaps my measurements are wrong, perhaps they changed something. I've been wrong before...not often, but it happens. Essentially the display is just a number, it's all about being able to increase and decrease temperature to the taste you like for the particular coffee. The offset only throws things off and starts giving a non linear response when it's much much higher than it should be. So I would just say don't worry about it...unless your getting very long delays between starting the pump and water coming from an open group...which might show brew boiler level dropping over time... (for a mostly full valve opening of course).


----------



## swai

I would say alot of users of the Bianca are a good few months into owning there machines. Are you guys still enjoying it the same as when you first got it? Seriously considering purchasing one. Just looking for some user feedback! Thanks


----------



## Teejay

Still loving mine. Had it now for 4 months is on most days. Tend to have one or two cups them it's powered off. I'm just beginning to grind a little finer and use the paddle. Coffee is always good but reckon with practice it will be better.


----------



## olivier

Still enjoy it as much as when I got it! I don't think too much about it now. I guess that means the hardware is not getting in the way which is a good thing.

I haven't experimented that much with pressure profiling. However I do use the paddle to control flow, but more based on visual cues / experience with a given bean, in order to get in the ballpark of my desired yield and time.

Steaming was hard to get the hang of at first, but now I can do it relatively well, and it takes only a few second for a 35cl pitcher.


----------



## Nick1881

Did anyone move to the Bianca from an ECM Mechanika? I'm considering both machines, the ECM is much more in my budget but I'm considering upping my budget to the Bianca as after seeing it at BB I really like it. This will be the third increase in my budget lol.


----------



## Jony

Only the 3rd


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

I will only say three things... rotary pump, flow control and dual boiler... surely that's enough to warrant the extra cash


----------



## Nick1881

Jony said:


> Only the 3rd


they were fairy big increases though











TonyCoffeeNewbie said:


> I will only say three things... rotary pump, flow control and dual boiler... surely that's enough to warrant the extra cash


The ECM is rotary pump and I would plumb it in. It doesn't have a shot timer or PID or come with as many accessories I think. I'm not sure what I'd with the flow control, nice to have it there though I guess.

Im still not sure if I need DB over HX, a cooling flush doesn't sound too bad.


----------



## kennyboy993

I ran a plumbed in mechanika for a while - it was a joy to behold, lovely to own and made great coffee.

Ultimately I wanted more consistency and control over brew temp that a HX could provide as i now mainly drink lighter roasts than 'dark'.

If I'd have known this from the start I'd have gone dual boiler straight away. And conversely if I was still drinking predominantly darker roasts that are less sensitive to brew temp I'd still have it


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

sorry i assumed you were referring to the mechanika slim..with a vibe pump.

my upgrade thoughts went ... lelit mara to ecm mechanika iv profi to mechanika slim to lelit bianca..

good luck


----------



## Nick1881

Oh god, I'm going to end up with a Bianca aren't I, it really is a beauty and meets all my wants and then some.

Thanks for the replies.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Nick1881 said:


> Oh god, I'm going to end up with a Bianca aren't I, it really is a beauty and meets all my wants and then some.
> 
> Thanks for the replies.


whats your grinder


----------



## Nick1881

Niche Zero, already upgraded that lol.


----------



## Nick1881

One thing I read about the Bianca is that the flow rate is very slow compared to other machines, someone said that mouth feel on darker shots isn't as good. Any owners noticed this?

Also is DB harder to maintain than a HX machine or are they about the same?


----------



## Mrboots2u

Nick1881 said:


> One thing I read about the Bianca is that the flow rate is very slow compared to other machines, someone said that mouth feel on darker shots isn't as good. Any owners noticed this?
> 
> Also is DB harder to maintain than a HX machine or are they about the same?


Dont over think it... Mouthfeel Is such a subjective thing. Get the machine and have an experiment.


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## Nick1881

Well I'm now a Bianca owner.

Just reading the the guide and doing the flushing procedure.


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## Nick1881

My machine is all plumbed and and running.

What pressure are you guys running. Mine came set to 11 bar, I see that @DavecUK has his set to 9 bar. I'm still very new to this, what does it mean for the shot, should I reduce mine? I saw the Lelit video on adjusting it, very nice that it can be done without removing covers.


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## igm45

Nick1881 said:


> My machine is all plumbed and and running.
> 
> What pressure are you guys running. Mine came set to 11 bar, I see that @DavecUK has his set to 9 bar. I'm still very new to this, what does it mean for the shot, should I reduce mine? I saw the Lelit video on adjusting it, very nice that it can be done without removing covers.


Go on, show us some shiny pics..


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## Nikko

Nick1881 said:


> My machine is all plumbed and and running.
> 
> What pressure are you guys running. Mine came set to 11 bar, I see that @DavecUK has his set to 9 bar. I'm still very new to this, what does it mean for the shot, should I reduce mine? I saw the Lelit video on adjusting it, very nice that it can be done without removing covers.


You adjust the group pressure with the needle valve. You can leave the pump pressure where it is.


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## DavecUK

I tweaked mine to 10 bar, this was to ensure the max pressure was set to a pressure I would not want to go above in a profile.


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## Nick1881

Thanks guys.

I reduced the incoming mains water pressure, despite setting it to 2 bar on another gauge the Bianca gauge showed 3 bar, I have now lowered it so the Bianca reads just under 2. I noticed during a shot the pressure was more like 9.5 bar so i think it will be ok.


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## Nick1881

igm45 said:


> Go on, show us some shiny pics..


----------



## igm45

Nick1881 said:


> View attachment 40320


Lovely set up.

Are they the arc scales? How do you get on with them?


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## Jony

Looking good.


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## MildredM

Nick1881 said:


> View attachment 40320


It looks fantastic


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## Nick1881

Thanks all



igm45 said:


> Lovely set up.
> 
> Are they the arc scales? How do you get on with them?


Yes they are, very good indeed, much better than the cheap scales I was using, because the response time is fast it is much easier to stop the shot at the right weight. Also better accuracy repeatability. The timer was very handy before but now I use the Bianca shot timer.


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## Nick1881

I've had the Bianca for a week now and I absolutely love it. I didn't think I would play with the pressure paddle but I have been already. I haven't attempted the very long pre-infusion shot yet, not sure how fine I should grind. I have done fairly long pre-infusion shots with my standard grind, set to about 14 on the Niche.

I'm getting through the Gaslight blend that I got with the machine and I have to say I'm making the best coffee I have ever tasted, the only trouble is that as soon as I finish a cup I want another one. I've had two so far today and I'm trying to go easy.

My milk frothing is still pretty poor, I seem to make too many bigger bubbles. I saw on the HB forum someone changed to a 4 hole tip with good results, not sure if that would help me.

I'm really happy I chose the Bianca though, for the money it seems to be the perfect machine.


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

Nick1881 said:


> I've had the Bianca for a week now and I absolutely love it. I didn't think I would play with the pressure paddle but I have been already. I haven't attempted the very long pre-infusion shot yet, not sure how fine I should grind. I have done fairly long pre-infusion shots with my standard grind, set to about 14 on the Niche.
> I'm getting through the Gaslight blend that I got with the machine and I have to say I'm making the best coffee I have ever tasted, the only trouble is that as soon as I finish a cup I want another one. I've had two so far today and I'm trying to go easy.
> My milk frothing is still pretty poor, I seem to make too many bigger bubbles. I saw on the HB forum someone changed to a 4 hole tip with good results, not sure if that would help me.
> I'm really happy I chose the Bianca though, for the money it seems to be the perfect machine.


i suggest you master the two hole tip before moving to the four hole. You may even find it easier to learn with the other tip you get with the bianca which has two smaller holes.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## GordonH

I was next in line behind @Nick1881 at BB to buy the Bianca. Big learning curve for me too, but I am managing to pull good (drinkable) shots.

Steaming is more of a challenge, I've now moved to the smaller holed tip but still can't master it - I guess it will take more practice. Kids are more than happy with the hot chocolates I make so can't be all bad.


----------



## Nick1881

Hi @GordonH You decided to go for a Bianca then.

I briefly tried the smaller hole tip but it didn't seem to help me. The guy on H-B got a 4 hole 0.9mm so I'm not sure if they are more smaller holes than the stock 2 ones or maybe having 4 holes helps in some different way. I'm just musing here, really I just don't know what I'm doing 

For now I'm just glad that my coffee tastes good.


----------



## Enolator

Hi Everyone,

I've been following this topic for a while as well as looking throughout the internet for reviews/information on the Bianca; eventually deciding to go for it as my first upgrade from my trusty old Lelit PL041tem. Having ordered from Bella Barista, the service was entirely top notch, and all my questions on delivery arrangements and whatnot were answered fully.

Indeed, they tested the new machine for me and it arrived in excellent nick last Friday. However (there's always one isn't there?), upon first turning the machine on, the LCC display gave me "error 2" accompanied with a little wrench icon. According to the manual, this is some disorder related to the brew boiler temperature probe.

After waiting 5 minutes and an old turning off/on, the brew and steam boilers then started filling - problem solved with no more error.

Over the last few days, we've noticed the same error appear seemingly randomly, perhaps every 10 times or so. However, when we try turning the machine on/off several times, we couldn't recreate the error.

Puzzling indeed, until we realised that the error might be popping up every time the brew boiler drops below a threshold 20degC. This would make sense given that outside temperature at delivery was on the order of 10degC, and room temperature was around 18degC or so earlier (taking only 10 seconds for the error to automatically dissappear). And of course, as the brew boiler heats up incrementally with each off/on test, it far surpasses the 20degC lower limit. We're going to check again tomorrow morning, as some cold weather is expected overnight, so will report back later.

I just wandered, has anyone else noticed this before? Our machine was one of a fresh shipment from Lelit, has anyone heard of any factory level changes made?

Apologies for the wall of text, and thanks for reading!


----------



## DavecUK

Talk to BB you might have a faulty temp probe, if so it's easily replaced.


----------



## blankets

Hello fellow owners. Quick question, I've set the max pressure to 10 bar, but when the paddle is fully opened, the group head pressure gauge exceeds that. Does everyone have the paddle slightly closed to reduce pressure?


----------



## blankets

Oh @DaveC, I upgraded from a Sage Barista Express to this and the Niche after reading all your stuff. Hat tip sir.


----------



## blankets

Here it is, pride of place in a new kitchen.


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## Jony

blankets said:


> Oh @DaveC, I upgraded from a Sage Barista Express to this and the Niche after reading all your stuff. Hat tip sir.


 That would be @DavecUK


----------



## Obidi

I've decided to use Volvic bottled water with my Lelit Bianca. If someone can tell me, do I remove the resin filter or not?

Thank you. ?


----------



## DavecUK

Obidi said:


> I've decided to use Volvic bottled water with my Lelit Bianca. If someone can tell me, do I remove the resin filter or not?
> 
> Thank you. ?


 If yer confident Volvic is low mineral then yes. One thing less to get gunged up with bacterial!


----------



## Obidi

DavecUK said:


> If yer confident Volvic is low mineral then yes. One thing less to get gunged up with bacterial!


 I've searched the forum and Volvic seems to be highly recommended along with Waitrose Lockhills and another from Tesco, both of which I can't get here in France.

Just re-read your review @DavecUK and see that Volvic would be a good choice.

"The one thing that kills machines faster than anything else is bad water (lime scale). I realise it has an internal water filter, but *in reality they are about as useful as snowshoes in the desert unless changed very regularly*. They don't soften for very long and after a month or so tend to go mouldy inside (so don't bother trying to recharge them)! You are far better off using boiler safe water if you live in a hard water area. This can be certain bottled waters (NOT mineral waters), you can get plenty of advice on the forums, Volvic is one name that springs to mind. It's important to get the calculation correct for estimating whether the mineral water is soft or not. It is only 2 minerals that cause hardness.



MgCO3 (Magnesium Carbonate)


CaCO3 (Calcium Carbonate)


Soft water is usually below 60 mg/L (milligrams per litre) of the combined total of these compounds. Moderately hard is 60-120 and hard is 120-180.

The problem is that these waters normally only state the amount of Mg and Ca, not the whole compound which is misleading. Volvic has 11.5 mg/L calcium and about 8mg/L magnesium., so you would think it's super soft&#8230;*BUT you have to multiply the calcium number by 2.5 and the magnesium number by 4 to get the real amount (it's just chemistry).* This works out for be 28.75 + 32 = 60.75 mg/L which just classifies as soft and won't scale the machine badly at all."


----------



## Jony

He uses Reverse osmosis a few have the machine on here called the Osmio


----------



## Obidi

Jony said:


> He uses Reverse osmosis a few have the machine on here called the Osmio


 Thanks @Jony I just re-read his review and saw that.


----------



## Jony

Cant really beat it really.


----------



## Zagato

Hi, just wondering about dimensions as I can't seem to find it anywhere. Lelit say the depth of the machine is 48.5cm. What are they actually measuring, ie does this include water tank located at back of machine? Does it include the portafilter handle. It seems quite deep relative to photos I've seen if it doesn't include one of those.

I was planning on putting water tank to one side and would like to know what the footprint when set up this way.

Cheers


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

Zagato said:


> Hi, just wondering about dimensions as I can't seem to find it anywhere. Lelit say the depth of the machine is 48.5cm. What are they actually measuring, ie does this include water tank located at back of machine? Does it include the portafilter handle. It seems quite deep relative to photos I've seen if it doesn't include one of those.
> I was planning on putting water tank to one side and would like to know what the footprint when set up this way.
> Cheers


48.5 cm includes the water tank on the back. It is 40cm without the tank..
With the tank and the PF it is about 58.5cm according to my tape measure.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## Zagato

Thanks, that sounds more manageable, although will still be almost a foot deeper than my Silvia


----------



## Keeper

Just got mine from BB, great service looking forward to learning more about the machine.


----------



## DavecUK

Both of you guys have a real treat in store as you get to grips with your machines. Remember to watch the special videos I did for BB. Will help a lot in getting up to speed.


----------



## Rob1

Obidi said:


> I've searched the forum and Volvic seems to be highly recommended along with Waitrose Lockhills and another from Tesco, both of which I can't get here in France.
> 
> Just re-read your review @DavecUK and see that Volvic would be a good choice.
> 
> "The one thing that kills machines faster than anything else is bad water (lime scale). I realise it has an internal water filter, but *in reality they are about as useful as snowshoes in the desert unless changed very regularly*. They don't soften for very long and after a month or so tend to go mouldy inside (so don't bother trying to recharge them)! You are far better off using boiler safe water if you live in a hard water area. This can be certain bottled waters (NOT mineral waters), you can get plenty of advice on the forums, Volvic is one name that springs to mind. It's important to get the calculation correct for estimating whether the mineral water is soft or not. It is only 2 minerals that cause hardness.
> 
> 
> 
> MgCO3 (Magnesium Carbonate)
> 
> 
> CaCO3 (Calcium Carbonate)
> 
> 
> Soft water is usually below 60 mg/L (milligrams per litre) of the combined total of these compounds. Moderately hard is 60-120 and hard is 120-180.
> 
> The problem is that these waters normally only state the amount of Mg and Ca, not the whole compound which is misleading. Volvic has 11.5 mg/L calcium and about 8mg/L magnesium., so you would think it's super soft&#8230;*BUT you have to multiply the calcium number by 2.5 and the magnesium number by 4 to get the real amount (it's just chemistry).* This works out for be 28.75 + 32 = 60.75 mg/L which just classifies as soft and won't scale the machine badly at all."


 I use Jim Schulman's Water FAQ when remineralising water. http://users.rcn.com/erics/Water Quality/Water FAQ.pdf

Volvic has an alkalinity of 60.6 and according to the FAQ you'll get scale above hardness of 55 at 95c and 20 at 125c. Bear in mind the brew boiler temperature is going to be higher than 95c even if that's what the pid is set to due to the offset. I find this odd because I used volvic for a couple of years with very little sign of scaling but there was at least some.


----------



## Keeper

After a few days of use I'm finding my tamping is improving as I start to aim that each puck produces the same pressure through the head.

At first some where low then high , it really makes you think of the process.


----------



## Johey

I just bought my Bianca from BB today.

Great guys there!

@DavecUK in another thread you wrote „If you are buying from BB in the UK I did quite a good guide for them in addition to the manufacturers instructions....will answer most of your questions"

Does this mean that there is an additional instruction which should have been given to me from BB? I didn't ask but when I unpacked the machine there was only the original manual from Lelit.

Would it be possible for you to send me those instructions? I could also pm you a copy of the invoice from BB if necessary.

I also read somewhere about some adjustments you proposed for the PID Settings. Where can I find those?

Thanks


----------



## DavecUK

Simply contact BB they will send you a hard copy. They don't send electronic copies and it's no longer my document to send.


----------



## Johey

The last couple of days I played around with the Craft House Coffee - Colombia El Muro. I didn't get any pleasant result...

Two days ago I changed to the CHC "Development - House Espresso". I got great tasting Espresso!

But now my question: I have the 18g VST basket and with the "Development - House Espresso" the basket is quite full (with 18g espresso in). Today I checked with a 20p coin and it gets pressed in to the powder by the shower screen.

With the "El Muro" the powder was around 1mm deeper in the basket (same tamping force and more or less grind size).

Is it critical when the powder touches the shower screen? What options do I have: I think only reducing the amount of coffee in the basket?


----------



## Rob1

Reducing dose yes.

What kind of profiles were you using with the El Muro?


----------



## Johey

No real profiles. Just the pre-infusion from the machine. As I am still in the very early phase of my espresso learning I felt overstrained with trying different pressure profiles...

So I also learned that there are "easier" and "more complicated" beans. Lucky that the "Development House Coffee" beans are on the easier side.


----------



## ashcroc

It's not unusual for different beans to have a different fill height for a given dose. It's why VST baskets have a +/-1g tolerance.


----------



## Johey

Rob1 said:


> Reducing dose yes.
> 
> What kind of profiles were you using with the El Muro?


 Have you tried the El Muro with the Bianca? Can you recommend a profile?

... I still have half a kilo of beans left...


----------



## Rob1

No I've not tried it but why aren't the results pleasant? How does it taste and are you getting good flow from the basket or are you having trouble with channelling? What's the brew recipe e.g. 18g in 36g out? How long is the shot running for?


----------



## Johey

I had always 18 in, 36-40 out. Shot times between 25 and 40 (depending on grind size).

it was always extremely sour. Only with quite fine grind and long extraction time it went into bitterness. But I never managed to hit the spot in between.

Also sometimes noticeable variation in time (to get the 18/36) with same grind size.

As I said, I am new in that business so very likely that it's just my skills...


----------



## catpuccino

I'm not using a Bianca, but for El Muro i'm at 18 VST > 38g in ~32s. 13 on the Niche. Puck prep very important with this bean, first time I've had channelling with my normal routine in a long while. Also tasted better at higher temps. If your Bianca is set at 93 I'd give 94/95 a go.

The CHC development blend will definitely give you an easier time of things.


----------



## Rob1

I assume it's quite a light roast?

Take care of puck prep and extend pre infusion time. Extended pre infusion will make the shot run faster and you might not even hit 9 bar when you increase flow rate, especially if you do so slowly.

Probably try the finest grind setting you've used and go for a long 2 bar pre infusion and slowly increase pressure to 7 bar then slowly back down to keep flow rate steady through the shot. You could also do a long pre infusion and open the valve quickly to 9 bar and slowly lower to 7 by half way through and down from there.

By long pre infusion I mean 15-20 seconds until the first drops but 10 seconds might be fine.

Or you could just go to 45g out or more.


----------



## Johey

I just found a post in the German Coffee Forum about a software/firmware update for the Bianca.

Here's the link: https://www.kaffee-netz.de/threads/lelit-bianca-pl162-review-tests-und-messungen-e61-dual-boiler-temperaturverhalten.122377/page-8

And here is the text translated with Google (and not double checked) - if there is some wrong translation, you can ask and I can try to properly translate individual sentences:

"Lelit has released firmware 4.07c, which is now implemented in all possible machines. I HAVE BEEN COMPOSED HERE OVER THE LAST MONTHS OF DEVELOPMENT, WHICH HAS BEEN FUN. The changes are impressive:

*- economy mode:*

Press 3sec on the "-" button, which saves the way through the menu. Since I do this several times a day, I'm pretty happy.

*- Standby mode:*

With the shortcut "+" and "-" for 3 seconds, the machine goes into standby -> steam boiler, brewing boiler 80 ° C.

I tend not to use this mode, but it is a huge improvement to the old menu, where you can only set a time that specifies how many minutes of inactivity the standby mode will start.

*- water reserve:*

So far, there was no direct stop when the tank was quickly empty, but sometimes it was still possible that the supply did not come to the end. Well, when the water runs out, a water drop symbol appears during the reference, so that you could theoretically refill. In practice, however, it is hardly necessary since the cover continues for up to 60 seconds. If you don't pull an ultra-long slayer shot, you can get there well, otherwise you have enough time to refill.

*- Shott timer:*

The Shottimer was hidden relatively quickly in the old firmware. Now the time is displayed for 20sec. I got along well with the first solution, but apparently you also complained to customers. It's a good thing that you get into the menu as normal during the 20sec.

*- steam temperature:*

The steam boiler now goes up to 135 °. This is brutal and absolutely suitable for gastro, if you want to froth larger jugs. I do not see any difference here to the LMs etc.

*- Heating program:*

This has taken up a lot of the time. So far it worked perfectly with cold machine and dual boiler operation, there was a bit of overheating if the machine still had a lot of residual heat or it was only used in single boiler operation, see my graphics at the beginning of the thread, where I was working for the single boiler Company described a workaround. So far, there was only a threshold temperature of residual heat, where the standard heating program was still activated or was not run at all. If you were just below it, the machine overheated as a result, just above it without a heating program it took just as long or even longer to heat up than a cold machine with a heating program. So you had to wait longer for residual heat than for a cold machine.

Now the machine differentiates fundamentally whether it works in single or dual boiler mode and has two thresholds for the residual heat in order to run different programs. For every boiler mode there is a full heating program, a shortened and none at all for residual heat above 75 ° C.

Especially with residual heat in the middle region with the short heating program, if the machine e.g. an hour was up, it only takes about 5-6 minutes.

All in all, the new firmware significantly improves the Bianca once again.

To upgrade you have to replace or have the LCC unit replaced. It is quickly done by yourself, except for the case, you don't have to remove anything. Lelit has published a video on this. To be honest, I don't know how much this part costs, I would in any case talk to my seller about it, maybe there will be a discount as an upgrade customer.

Lelit has released firmware 4.07c, which is now implemented in all possible machines. I HAVE BEEN COMPOSED HERE OVER THE LAST MONTHS OF DEVELOPMENT, WHICH HAS BEEN FUN. The changes are impressive:

*- economy mode:*

Press 3sec on the "-" button, which saves the way through the menu. Since I do this several times a day, I'm pretty happy.

*- Standby mode:*

With the shortcut "+" and "-" for 3 seconds, the machine goes into standby -> steam boiler, brewing boiler 80 ° C.

I tend not to use this mode, but it is a huge improvement to the old menu, where you can only set a time that specifies how many minutes of inactivity the standby mode will start.

*- water reserve:*

So far, there was no direct stop when the tank was quickly empty, but sometimes it was still possible that the supply did not come to the end. Well, when the water runs out, a water drop symbol appears during the reference, so that you could theoretically refill. In practice, however, it is hardly necessary since the cover continues for up to 60 seconds. If you don't pull an ultra-long slayer shot, you can get there well, otherwise you have enough time to refill.

*- Shott timer:*

The Shottimer was hidden relatively quickly in the old firmware. Now the time is displayed for 20sec. I got along well with the first solution, but apparently you also complained to customers. It's a good thing that you get into the menu as normal during the 20sec.

*- steam temperature:*

The steam boiler now goes up to 135 °. This is brutal and absolutely suitable for gastro, if you want to froth larger jugs. I do not see any difference here to the LMs etc.

*- Heating program:*

This has taken up a lot of the time. So far it worked perfectly with cold machine and dual boiler operation, there was a bit of overheating if the machine still had a lot of residual heat or it was only used in single boiler operation, see my graphics at the beginning of the thread, where I was working for the single boiler Company described a workaround. So far, there was only a threshold temperature of residual heat, where the standard heating program was still activated or was not run at all. If you were just below it, the machine overheated as a result, just above it without a heating program it took just as long or even longer to heat up than a cold machine with a heating program. So you had to wait longer for residual heat than for a cold machine.

Now the machine differentiates fundamentally whether it works in single or dual boiler mode and has two thresholds for the residual heat in order to run different programs. For every boiler mode there is a full heating program, a shortened and none at all for residual heat above 75 ° C.

Especially with residual heat in the middle region with the short heating program, if the machine e.g. an hour was up, it only takes about 5-6 minutes.

All in all, the new firmware significantly improves the Bianca once again.

To upgrade you have to replace or have the LCC unit replaced. It is quickly done by yourself, except for the case, you don't have to remove anything. Lelit has published a video on this. To be honest, I don't know how much this part costs, I would in any case talk to my seller about it, maybe there will be a discount as an upgrade customer."


----------



## Johey

From my point of view this is another great example why OTA updates will play a more and more important role. IoT will continuously progress and bring added value to the consumers...even for very "mechanical" devices like espresso machines...


----------



## KingoftheHeath

Those updates address a couple of things which have been bothering me - just this morning I was wishing that standby mode could be switched on in the way described.

Annoying that the LLC needs replacing, wonder what BB will be offering.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


----------



## adamk

Thanks for the fantastic reading material everyone! My Bianca is on the way ?

Does anyone have an experience with the Bianca's performance on Italian (or Italian-style) medium or dark roasts, with some percentage of Robusta? I started my whole espresso experience with a Gaggia Classic by wanting to recreate at home that sweet and chocolaty taste you get in Italian bars ('caffè come al bar')... my shots were nice even with the Gaggia but I have high expectation from this upgrade! I really hope it will live up to the them ☕
I am also into dark Neapolitan syrupy espresso and I have recently obtained some very dark roasted Passalacqua Arabica beans... looking forward to try to imitate the traditional Lever pressure profile ?


----------



## tonnesofquestions

Hi all,

I have a new Lelit Bianca (thank you DaveC) and I see that a "pure water backflush" needs to be done daily, and performed 2 or 3 times. I'm doing a lot of dialling in at the moment so would like to keep the machine as clean as possible.

My question is, what is a pure water backflush? Am I meant to be removing the double portafilter, fitting in the supplied blank plate, and with the portafilter in the machine start running water through the group head?

I want to come up with a good workflow for cleaning (after pulling my daily espresso shot), any tips or videos would be appreciated.

Thanks!

edit: I bought the machine from Bella Barista


----------



## Johey

Hi, yes you described it. I only use the naked PF so the blind screen is always in the double PF for backflush.

I have 2 double espresso every morning and add 2 in the afternoon.

based on that I do the pure water backflush once every 2 or 3 days. When doing then always 3 times (Pump on until full pressure and then off). Takes 15s.

A proper backflush with Pully Caff is ok every 3 months (based on my usage of the machine).

For me it is more important to quickly clean the shower screen before I turn off the machine every day. The Espazzola is the perfect tool for that (my opinion).

After 3 month I removed the shower screen for the first time. Look absolutely ok. Just some hot water and a brush and it looked like new.

But I think any advice for cleaning the espresso machine heavily depends on the individual usage / number of coffees per day.


----------



## NikonGuy

tonnesofquestions said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have a new Lelit Bianca (thank you DaveC) and I see that a "pure water backflush" needs to be done daily, and performed 2 or 3 times. I'm doing a lot of dialling in at the moment so would like to keep the machine as clean as possible.
> 
> My question is, what is a pure water backflush? Am I meant to be removing the double portafilter, fitting in the supplied blank plate, and with the portafilter in the machine start running water through the group head?
> 
> I want to come up with a good workflow for cleaning (after pulling my daily espresso shot), any tips or videos would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> edit: I bought the machine from Bella Barista


 I clean water backflush daily, drop the screen weekly, purge boilers monthly and chemical backflush every 3 months or 150 cups.

is the BF procedure not documented in the manual?

I'm sure DaveC will be around shortly to guide you on specifics for your machine.


----------



## tonnesofquestions

Thanks @Johey, and @NikonGuyfor the through responses!

Do you recommend using the same brush to clean both the group head screen and behind the group head screen?

Do you wash the portafilter and the inside of the spout daily also?


----------



## NikonGuy

tonnesofquestions said:


> Thanks @Johey, and @NikonGuyfor the through responses!
> 
> Do you recommend using the same brush to clean both the group head screen and behind the group head screen?
> 
> Do you wash the portafilter and the inside of the spout daily also?


 On my old E61 machine I used a sponge the same as DaveC to clean behind the screen:-


----------



## Johey

I use the Espazzola. It cleans the screen and the gap between the screen and the group head (where the rubber sealing is).


----------



## DavecUK

I do recommend dropping the shower screen every few days and cleaning the screen and behind the screen and the dispersion disk. I use a bit of dish soap on a toothbrush for this. Even if you can't see much the old coffee oils are there. Unfortunately backflushing with Puly Cafe doesn't clean these areas properly and it makes a huge difference in taste.

Of course if each time you have a coffee or espresso, you take the dried out cup, rinse it quickly and then use it again each day, for a week or more....then you are probably OK.


----------



## tonnesofquestions

Johey said:


> I use the Espazzola. It cleans the screen and the gap between the screen and the group head (where the rubber sealing is).


 Great will try one out!



DavecUK said:


> I do recommend dropping the shower screen every few days and cleaning the screen and behind the screen and the dispersion disk. I use a bit of dish soap on a toothbrush for this. Even if you can't see much the old coffee oils are there. Unfortunately backflushing with Puly Cafe doesn't clean these areas properly and it makes a huge difference in taste.
> 
> Of course if each time you have a coffee or espresso, you take the dried out cup, rinse it quickly and then use it again each day, for a week or more....then you are probably OK.


 Thank you, totally understand what i need to do on this now. Now to actually do it


----------



## tonnesofquestions

Johey said:


> I use the Espazzola. It cleans the screen and the gap between the screen and the group head (where the rubber sealing is).


 Bought the Espazzola its like magic - find it does a better job without having to lean under the machine and see what you're doing. Thanks for the great recommendation!


----------



## Johey

tonnesofquestions said:


> Bought the Espazzola its like magic - find it does a better job without having to lean under the machine and see what you're doing. Thanks for the great recommendation!


 You're welcome. Without the Espazzola I cleaned it with a brush while the hot water was running. The hot water splashed around everywhere (incl my hands). With the Espazzola it's just easy and convenient...


----------



## Jony

My Pallo brush is spot on had it over two years still 3 in it.


----------



## Keeper

In the manual by Dave he suggest getting a good grinder over a value, I have an old Eureka Mignon.

What grinder would you match to the machine between £500 - £1000.


----------



## Jony

500/1000 is a big jump,


----------



## Keeper

Jony said:


> 500/1000 is a big jump,


 Yes I guess it offers lots of options, however it looks like it will have to wait as sites like Bellabarista have zero grinder stock.


----------



## Jony

You have a reasonable grinder budget, so you should be fine.


----------



## willvo84

Nick1881 said:


> I've had the Bianca for a week now and I absolutely love it. I didn't think I would play with the pressure paddle but I have been already. I haven't attempted the very long pre-infusion shot yet, not sure how fine I should grind. I have done fairly long pre-infusion shots with my standard grind, set to about 14 on the Niche.
> 
> I'm getting through the Gaslight blend that I got with the machine and I have to say I'm making the best coffee I have ever tasted, the only trouble is that as soon as I finish a cup I want another one. I've had two so far today and I'm trying to go easy.
> 
> My milk frothing is still pretty poor, I seem to make too many bigger bubbles. I saw on the HB forum someone changed to a 4 hole tip with good results, not sure if that would help me.
> 
> I'm really happy I chose the Bianca though, for the money it seems to be the perfect machine.


 Took me a little while to get my head around steaming on it, but am getting there now. I stretch until just past 30 degrees with not too aggressive an angle/depth, to mitigate against large bubbles, then take up to serving temp with a nice vortex. If I stretched 'til 40, I'd get far too many larger bubbles. Using the standard tip, not the spare.

Will


----------



## Rob2444

https://coffeeforums.co.uk



ncrc51 said:


> I'm interested in what Forum members think of this machine. I know very little about Lelit's other products. It appears that the Bianca may be available in some markets now and in the U.S. perhaps in July. The price quoted by 1st Line is pretty competitive with other double boiler machines.


 NCRC51.....Noticed you are writing from North Carolina. I am in Greensboro. A good friend of mine is a coffee distributor and he brought me Bianca to try this past weekend. It took only a few shots to realize this is different than my Londinium. I love my Londinium but the Bianca allowed me to bring out flavors that were missing with the Londinium. The one I am using is a Version One. I ordered a Version Two and should have it next week. I was impressed with the quality of the materials and the construction. A very well made machine. 1stLine owner stated it was one of the lowest maintenance machines that he's ever sold. I'm still learning. I know this is a 2018 post so most likely you know more about the machine than I do.


----------



## Keeper

Ive just cleaned my shower screen and above it is a plate with brass fitment, it looks like this has a thin laver of grease or it it residue to clean off?

I've cleaned it, if grease what do I need to replace it with?

Sorry if this is a daft question I couldn't spot it in Dave's manual.

Cheers


----------



## Rob2444

Keeper said:


> I suspect what you are seeing is coffee stains. Some coffees are oilier than others (darker roasted coffee) and will leave a greasy looking film on metal if not cleared regularly. If you have cleaned the inside of your screen and cleaned the greasy looking film off the brass fitment underneath you don't need to do anything else. However I would recommend than you do a back flushing about once a week using a dime size bit of espresso detergent. Back flush 4-5 times holding each one for 10 seconds should keep the greasy coffee film from accumulating. After back flushing remove the blind filter from your portafilter run some water through it to remove bits of the detergent. Back flushing is described in the manual.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Rob





> Ive just cleaned my shower screen and above it is a plate with brass fitment, it looks like this has a thin laver of grease or it it residue to clean off?
> 
> I've cleaned it, if grease what do I need to replace it with?
> 
> Sorry if this is a daft question I couldn't spot it in Dave's manual.
> 
> Cheers


----------



## Keeper

Rob2444 said:


> Cheers thanks for the response.


----------



## cherryberrymango

Hey guys!

Received my new Bianca this week. So far I've been running the flushing cycles, and the water coming out of the water tap has tiny black particles in it. I THINK the more water I run through it, the less particles I'm seeing, but is this a cause for concern?

The water out of the shower screen and steam wand are completely clean though. No particles there.


----------



## Rob2444

Did you clean the reservoir before you used it?

Did you use detergent when you back flushed?


----------



## cherryberrymango

Rob2444 said:


> Did you clean the reservoir before you used it?
> 
> Did you use detergent when you back flushed?


 Hey Rob,

Yes I washed out the reservoir before I filled it up for flushing.

I haven't back flushed yet. The picture above is from when I was just flushing water through the machine as per the user manuals 1st use instructions.

I have a tub of cafiza2 cleaning powder though for when I do have to backflush and clean the machine.


----------



## DavecUK

Did I write the user manual?


----------



## cherryberrymango

DavecUK said:


> Did I write the user manual?


 Hey Dave 

I was referring to the official user manual that came with the machine  just the standard 'run the grouphead for 500ml, run the hot water tap for 1L, run the steam wand for 10 seconds'

If there are small black specks coming from the water tap, but the shower head and steam wand are fine, does that mean it's an issue with the water tap only?

Cheers


----------



## DavecUK

Ah cos when I used to write manuals I used to use the term first use. I'll havo check I thought I wrote a user guide for Bianca. If I did it probably would have complemented the Lelit one.


----------



## DavecUK

Yes i did write a user guide not sure if it's fully up to date now with current LCC software.


----------



## Nick1881

My water dispenser has started dripping today, I only noticed because I could hear the pump running every 10 minutes or so to fill the boiler, I went to look why and the water tap is dripping every 3 seconds, it's closed off tight enough, I never shut the taps off really tight, just nip them till they stop.

@Davecuk Any ideas? Am I likely to need a new o ring or something?


----------



## DavecUK

Nick1881 said:


> My water dispenser has started dripping today, I only noticed because I could hear the pump running every 10 minutes or so to fill the boiler, I went to look why and the water tap is dripping every 3 seconds, it's closed off tight enough, I never shut the taps off really tight, just nip them till they stop.
> 
> @Davecuk Any ideas? Am I likely to need a new o ring or something?


 They are no compression taps so it doesn't matter how tight you close them. If you use water that's not clean enough for espresso machines (e.g. limescale and other contaminants), the seals on no compression water taps can leak. It could be debris, scale or it might need a new o ring. The best way is to open it, clean it and reassemble to see if the leak stops.

The other type of tap (you don't have) is the compression tap and the reason the manufacturers changed from them to no compression was users are ham fisted and were tightening up the compression ones too hard, so they didn't last as long as they should have and it was good marketing. I like compression taps because I'm gentle and usually they last me more than 10 years quite easily.


----------



## Nick1881

DavecUK said:


> They are no compression taps so it doesn't matter how tight you close them. If you use water that's not clean enough for espresso machines (e.g. limescale and other contaminants), the seals on no compression water taps can leak. It could be debris, scale or it might need a new o ring. The best way is to open it, clean it and reassemble to see if the leak stops.
> 
> The other type of tap (you don't have) is the compression tap and the reason the manufacturers changed from them to no compression was users are ham fisted and were tightening up the compression ones too hard, so they didn't last as long as they should have and it was good marketing. I like compression taps because I'm gentle and usually they last me more than 10 years quite easily.


 Thanks Dave, I switched the machine off and emptied about 150ml of hot water out, then shut it off and it wasn't dripping. I turned it back on and it filled the boiler and went back to temperature, not another drip all day. I'll keep an eye on it. The machine is plumbed in with a water filter, I measure the GH and KH at intervals and check the amount of water through the filter as I also drink it from a tap off the same filter.

I noticed the taps don't tighten like a regular tap, they just stop and the water flow is shut off before they hit the stop.

My Bianca is just over a year old now. Is there any extra maintenance tasks I should do or spares I should buy? I do a daily water backflush and occasionally I add Puly Caff, probably every 2 months.


----------



## DavecUK

There is I'm sure I posted about it (regular maintenance procedures. You will need to do a search and have a look at the coffeetime wiki as well.

With 100s of forum areas, I have no idea where it might be now.


----------



## Rob2444

cherryberrymango said:


> Hey Rob,
> 
> Yes I washed out the reservoir before I filled it up for flushing.
> 
> I haven't back flushed yet. The picture above is from when I was just flushing water through the machine as per the user manuals 1st use instructions.
> 
> I have a tub of cafiza2 cleaning powder though for when I do have to backflush and clean the machine.


 I am trying to get in the habit of back flushing once a week. Most of the time I use plain water but I used carfiza last week. I have only had my Bianca for about a month.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Rob2444 said:


> I am trying to get in the habit of back flushing once a week. Most of the time I use plain water but I used carfiza last week. I have only had my Bianca for about a month.


You don't need to backflush chemically too often, maybe once every 6 weeks. But make sure you lube the cam afterwards! Otherwise the pins will prematurely wear off.


----------



## Groke

I've preordered a Bianca from BB, and figure it's about time I buy a dosing funnel. Assuming that I shouldn't be immediately swapping out the baskets, can anyone recommend a funnel that fits nicely on the stock ones please? Struggling to work out if they're 58mm or 58.5mm, and if it even makes much difference what size funnel I get if it's one that sits on the top like this one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07GZWNW7L/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_fZ3aFbXE0ZJCE

and yes I know I could just wait till it all arrives and get the callipers out, but it's nice to have all the toys ready from the off 😋

Thanks in advance!


----------



## olivier

Provided tamper says 58.5mm so I reckon that's the size of the baskets.
I have a standard 58mm funnel and it works well with it though. Probably more important for tampet choice.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Groke said:


> I've preordered a Bianca from BB, and figure it's about time I buy a dosing funnel. Assuming that I shouldn't be immediately swapping out the baskets, can anyone recommend a funnel that fits nicely on the stock ones please? Struggling to work out if they're 58mm or 58.5mm, and if it even makes much difference what size funnel I get if it's one that sits on the top like this one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07GZWNW7L/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_fZ3aFbXE0ZJCE
> and yes I know I could just wait till it all arrives and get the callipers out, but it's nice to have all the toys ready from the off
> Thanks in advance!


That funnel is fine.


----------



## spasypaddy

Is this the most complete machine at this price point?

Before buying did you consider anything else?

I'm almost convinced that if I get either the marax or the Elizabeth I'll regret not getting the bianca.

Any buyers regret? Any advice on the prospective purchase?


----------



## olivier

Not sure who this post is addressed to. I'll bite.

At the time I was torn between the Bianca and Decent. My main criteria that helped me narrow it down to these two were no HX, relatively fast heat up time, pressure/flow profiling ability, and dimensions (particularly depth). As it was early days for the Decent, I chose to go with the tried & tested stuff, especially as I'd had great coffees pulled from other E61s in the past.

I'm very happy with my choice, didn't have buyer's regret at all. Quite the contrary, it exceeded my expectations. I might still buy a DE1 one day, as the visual feedback, even faster heat up time, smaller dimensions, and overall greater level of control are quite appealing. However now the price of this machine has increased quite a bit so is in a different pricing league than the Bianca.

Below £2k, I would choose the Bianca again if buying today.


----------



## KingoftheHeath

I'm exactly the same as the post above. Plus the decent wasn't in stock when I was buying. I do slightly regret not having a decent, but it's more than likely that I wouldn't notice a difference in the cup.


----------



## Mrboots2u

spasypaddy said:


> Is this the most complete machine at this price point?
> 
> Before buying did you consider anything else?
> 
> I'm almost convinced that if I get either the marax or the Elizabeth I'll regret not getting the bianca.
> 
> Any buyers regret? Any advice on the prospective purchase?


 In the price range I had it seemed to be the best option , the decent was beyond my pocket , as is a speedster , proabalt the only two machines if have .

flow profiling is a hard as you want to make it ,once dialled in you can set the paddle and let it do it's thing mor you can change a shot on the fly if you got the grind wrong . 
moving the paddle around the hot certain pressure is easy and really repeatable 
It has some nice features like moveable water tank , level spouted pf , eco mode and a really great tamper .


----------



## spasypaddy

thanks guys, i basically want to buy once and not again (for 10 years or so...) and this seems to have literally everything i can imagine i want from a home machine so its good to see some nice feedback


----------



## thusband

spasypaddy said:


> thanks guys, i basically want to buy once and not again (for 10 years or so...) and this seems to have literally everything i can imagine i want from a home machine so its good to see some nice feedback


 I'm like you so I went with the Bianca about six months ago. I came from a La Pavoni so this was a big step. Best thing I ever did. Little bit of a learning curve but all of it fun. The power of the paddle really opens up so many possibilities.

You'll love it.


----------



## spasypaddy

now realising how big these are... does anyone have their machine with side mounted tank? if you do can you measure how far from the back it sits? (ie the gap between it and the back of the machine)


----------



## mit_hirani

thusband said:


> I'm like you so I went with the Bianca about six months ago. I came from a La Pavoni so this was a big step. Best thing I ever did. Little bit of a learning curve but all of it fun. The power of the paddle really opens up so many possibilities.
> You'll love it.


@thusband How are you finding the Bianca compared to the La Pavoni?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## thusband

mit_hirani said:


> @thusband How are you finding the Bianca compared to the La Pavoni?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


 Apple and oranges. Totally different experience. The Bianca is so much more precise.


----------



## KingoftheHeath

spasypaddy said:


> now realising how big these are... does anyone have their machine with side mounted tank? if you do can you measure how far from the back it sits? (ie the gap between it and the back of the machine)


The machine front to back is 40cm. With the water tank rear-mounted it's 48cm. When the tank is at the side it sits flush with the casing at the back, but remember you'll have the power cord at the back. The power cord protrudes a fair amount, I measured 8cm of space needed for the cord at the back before it will bend vertically up a wall (see photo for what I mean by that).


----------



## spasypaddy

Thanks! Very helpful


----------



## spasypaddy

owner checking in


----------



## KingoftheHeath

Congratulations, a very exciting day. I got mine in January and I still get all warm and fuzzy when I think about the day I travelled to Bella Barista to choose and take my machine.

Be patient with the paddle, it's intuitive but takes a little while to really understand what it can do for you.


----------



## spasypaddy

had my first milk drink from it just now, and wow. even with a severe lack of milk skills it was a substantial step up from what my old silvia could produce. the sweetness in the milk blew me away! i promised my gf cafe standard drinks from this machine and i cant see it letting me down

im going to use standby mode to save electric (and the steam boiler off), how long does it take to come back to temp from standby?


----------



## KingoftheHeath

Very quick. Espresso is ready by the time you've done your prep, milk will need 5 minutes. Optimum temp for espresso might mean giving it a bit longer, which I usually do - using timer plug app if needed (I use Meross)


----------



## spasypaddy

KingoftheHeath said:


> Very quick. Espresso is ready by the time you've done your prep, milk will need 5 minutes. Optimum temp for espresso might mean giving it a bit longer, which I usually do - using timer plug app if needed (I use Meross)


 its on a tp-link wifi plug to come on in the morning and to go off at night (if i forget) but i'll leave it on all day and make coffee as and when as i work from home now. so knowing it comes back up to temp in 5-10mins is great!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

spasypaddy said:


> knowing it comes back up to temp in 5-10mins is great!


 this doesn't make any sense 🙂 - and congrats on the Bianca! I wish I had the space!

Unless it does funky stuff during standby, like - keeping the boiler temp at a lower temperature - then it should make no difference whether you turn the machine off or use the standby function. So, yes, it would take 5 minutes providing the group is relatively warm and close to the operational temperature, but equality it could take 30 minutes.

If you intend to use the machine at unknown intervals or frequently, just leave the machine with the brew boiler on. - This way I think you'd save electricity, and, specially in autumn/winter time, you are technically not wasting any of the heat generated.


----------



## spasypaddy

how do i slide it on the counter to refill? its HEAVY...


----------



## KingoftheHeath

Put felt pads on the feet, first thing I did


----------



## spasypaddy

something like this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Assorted-Heavy-Duty-Felt-Pads/dp/B002JEFHIU/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=felt+pad&qid=1605110331&refinements=p_76%3A419158031&rnid=419157031&rps=1&s=kitchen&sr=1-5


----------



## Faffing

some lovely snaps 👀


----------



## spasypaddy

love my machine, currently using the preinfusion mode but getting consistently brilliant (IMO) shots.

however, i can't get the shower screen out to give it a good clean. anyone got any advice?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

spasypaddy said:


> love my machine, currently using the preinfusion mode but getting consistently brilliant (IMO) shots.
> 
> however, i can't get the shower screen out to give it a good clean. anyone got any advice?


 Get a tea spoon. Yank the shower screen out by leveraging the spoon against the group and the ridge of the shower screen.

(pica boo!)


----------



## spasypaddy

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Get a tea spoon. Yank the shower screen out by leveraging the spoon against the group and the ridge of the shower screen.


 ive been trying that, will give it another go.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

spasypaddy said:


> ive been trying that, will give it another go.


 Added a video for you. 🙂 - Only works with high-grade good quality spoons though. 😂 - Some people use screw drivers... Some people use bike tyre levers. Spoon is just fine.


----------



## DavecUK

And better/easier if the machine is hot, until it's been in and out a fair few times.


----------



## spasypaddy

Thanks for the video, its what i've been using.

i have loads of tyre levers dotted about (i do have 6 bikes after all...), will get one of those on it!

I was getting the gasket coming out a bit instead of the screen cover so i think im leveraging against the wrong bit. didnt notice a ridge so will look for that instead



DavecUK said:


> And better/easier if the machine is hot, until it's been in and out a fair few times.


 my machine is on if im awake so yeah its always been hot when i've tried.


----------



## DavecUK

spasypaddy said:


> Thanks for the video, its what i've been using.
> 
> i have loads of tyre levers dotted about (i do have 6 bikes after all...), will get one of those on it!
> 
> I was getting the gasket coming out a bit instead of the screen cover so i think im leveraging against the wrong bit. didnt notice a ridge so will look for that instead
> 
> my machine is on if im awake so yeah its always been hot when i've tried.


 No..no, the gasket is meant to come out....if it doesn't, then you're really in trouble!


----------



## spasypaddy

DavecUK said:


> No..no, the gasket is meant to come out....if it doesn't, then you're really in trouble!


 oh i know that, but when im just trying to take the shower screen out?


----------



## DavecUK

spasypaddy said:


> oh i know that, but when im just trying to take the shower screen out?


 I think you would really have to try to get the screen out without the gasket on an E61....I've not been able to...well unless it's on a machine where the screen has not been dropped in years and the gasket has welded itself in place.


----------



## spasypaddy

DavecUK said:


> I think you would really have to try to get the screen out without the gasket on an E61....I've not been able to...well unless it's on a machine where the screen has not been dropped in years and the gasket has welded itself in place.


 great, i wasnt going wrong i just was scared i wasnt doing it right.

its not been out and cleaned.

thanks


----------



## spasypaddy

me again... where should my steam boiler get to pressure wise? temp is set to 125 but sometimes it goes to 1.5bar and not much further other times much much further. today it went as far as i think it could go before getting stopped by the needle on the brew boiler


----------



## Mrboots2u

spasypaddy said:


> me again... where should my steam boiler get to pressure wise? temp is set to 125 but sometimes it goes to 1.5bar and not much further other times much much further. today it went as far as i think it could go before getting stopped by the needle on the brew boiler


 Is it staying at plus 1.5 bar for a long period of time , or just a couple of seconds before it dives down to a normal setting?

Ill have a look at mine when i get back to see where it is set and the bar it is at.

Over 1.5 for that temp seems high >? @DavecUK


----------



## DavecUK

spasypaddy said:


> me again... where should my steam boiler get to pressure wise? temp is set to 125 but sometimes it goes to 1.5bar and not much further other times much much further. today it went as far as i think it could go before getting stopped by the needle on the brew boiler


 What is much much further, what pressure is it showing?

Is the safety release going off?

How old is the machine and is it still under warranty?

125C is about 1.32 ish bar.


----------



## spasypaddy

Mrboots2u said:


> Is it staying at plus 1.5 bar for a long period of time , or just a couple of seconds before it dives down to a normal setting?
> 
> Ill have a look at mine when i get back to see where it is set and the bar it is at.
> 
> Over 1.5 for that temp seems high >? @DavecUK


 erm, i dont know. i turn the steam boiler on when im making milk drinks (once a day) and its normally off and just the brew boiler is on.

@DavecUK 3 weeks old from bella barista. so yes under warranty.

it was WAY over. It was down at the 12 on the brew boiler scale.

What safety release?

Coffee was made about 45mins ago and the e61 is ridiculously hot now, probably hotter than ive ever felt before.


----------



## DavecUK

spasypaddy said:


> erm, i dont know. i turn the steam boiler on when im making milk drinks (once a day) and its normally off and just the brew boiler is on.
> 
> @DavecUK 3 weeks old from bella barista. so yes under warranty.
> 
> it was WAY over. It was down at the 12 on the brew boiler scale.
> 
> What safety release?
> 
> Coffee was made about 45mins ago and the e61 is ridiculously hot now, probably hotter than ive ever felt before.


 It's a dual boiler so E61 temperature has nothing to do with service (steam) boiler temperature.

I'm assuming the temperature was showing normal when the machine was up at apparently 4 barish on the analogue scale...which makes me think something is a bit odd...especially as the safety valve didn't let go. did the steam seem to be super powerful compred to normal/

Call Bella Barista and get advice, be prepared to explain a little more than on here...more in line with what i've been asking you. You don't want to affect your warranty!


----------



## spasypaddy

the steam was mega powerful.

how do i know if the safety valve didnt go?

i'm making latte this morning so we will see what happens today... but will call BB later if i still see issues


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

You hear a sort of pop and then a large jet of steam from the top of the machine if the safety valve pops. Occasionally the safety valve outlet is routed elsewhere but either way you would know about it.

If your machine actually got to 3+ bars and the valve didn't go then you have a faulty valve. I wouldn't be surprised however if the real problem here is a faulty gauge or it is not providing an accurate reading for some reason.


----------



## warwickhan

Hi everyone. Does anyone know if you can buy the Lelit Bianca gicleur separately. It seems like they are easily broken and Lelit only sells the whole kit for 200£. And, on a seperate note, is your Bianca set to stop the flow completely when the paddle is closed? Thanks.


----------



## warwickhan

@DavecUK any thoughts on this gicleur? thanks.


----------



## DavecUK

warwickhan said:


> @DavecUK any thoughts on this gicleur? thanks.


 Gicleur is Italian for Jet, like the jet in an old style carburettor. *So I am not quite sure what you are asking.* The Gicleur isn't easily damaged, in fact I've never heard of a damaged one. If you mean the flow control valve, the needle part is only damaged if you try to screw it on (fit it to the group) with it in the fully down position, I cover than in my reviews of the device.


----------



## warwickhan

DavecUK said:


> Gicleur is Italian for Jet, like the jet in an old style carburettor. *So I am not quite sure what you are asking.* The Gicleur isn't easily damaged, in fact I've never heard of a damaged one. If you mean the flow control valve, the needle part is only damaged if you try to screw it on (fit it to the group) with it in the fully down position, I cover than in my reviews of the device.


 Thanks @DavecUK. Sorry for not being clear. I am talking about the small yellow screw with a hole. That piece came broken in my Bianca. I've been told not to adjust the paddle so that it stops the flow. I replaced the flow control, but i didnt tighten the gicleur nor adjusted the paddle so that it stops the flow. So I am ok now but looking at all the videos from Lelit and yourself, I feel like i am not utilizing the paddle enough... it slows the flow but doesnt stop.


----------



## DavecUK

warwickhan said:


> Thanks @DavecUK. Sorry for not being clear. I am talking about the small yellow screw with a hole. That piece came broken in my Bianca. I've been told not to adjust the paddle so that it stops the flow. I replaced the flow control, but i didnt tighten the gicleur nor adjusted the paddle so that it stops the flow. So I am ok now but looking at all the videos from Lelit and yourself, I feel like i am not utilizing the paddle enough... it slows the flow but doesnt stop.


 Then it needs adjusting..not sure which bit is broken, but it probably needs sorting out.


----------



## warwickhan

DavecUK said:


> Then it needs adjusting..not sure which bit is broken, but it probably needs sorting out.


 Do you adjust while the machine is hot or cold?


----------



## DavecUK

I did mine hot.


----------



## spasypaddy

pressure went silly again today so i rang BB, great service over the phone. reassured me its 'ok' but needs a sensor change which they will do when i take it up in january. great service.


----------



## colb16

Hi All, I recently purchased a bianca and it's been a steep learning curve so far as it's my first e61 machine, and quite the step up from what I've been used to. Had an issue with water flow regulator but it's sorted now and getting some great shots.

I do have two minor issues that I'm hoping fellow users can confirm if these are abnormal or not -

1) I'm getting a slight vibrating/buzzing noise when the machine is idle, that cycles on/off every 1-2 minutes. There is a longer vibrate sound to start quickly followed but 3 short bursts. Anyone else have this? Seems like some switch coming on to ensure temperature stability perhaps - wild guess.

2) The pressure release valve on the front panel also drips intermittently when idle, hours after a shot has been pulled. Drips every few minutes or so. Not overly bothered by this but again just checking if it's normal.

Appreciate any help not the above, just want to make sure the machine is operating as it should be. Thanks


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

colb16 said:


> Hi All, I recently purchased a bianca and it's been a steep learning curve so far as it's my first e61 machine, and quite the step up from what I've been used to. Had an issue with water flow regulator but it's sorted now and getting some great shots.
> 
> I do have two minor issues that I'm hoping fellow users can confirm if these are abnormal or not -
> 
> 1) I'm getting a slight vibrating/buzzing noise when the machine is idle, that cycles on/off every 1-2 minutes. There is a longer vibrate sound to start quickly followed but 3 short bursts. Anyone else have this? Seems like some switch coming on to ensure temperature stability perhaps - wild guess.
> 
> 2) The pressure release valve on the front panel also drips intermittently when idle, hours after a shot has been pulled. Drips every few minutes or so. Not overly bothered by this but again just checking if it's normal.
> 
> Appreciate any help not the above, just want to make sure the machine is operating as it should be. Thanks


 If you could video the constant buzzing you describe, together with the dripping into the drip tray, that would be very helpful.

There should be no water going into the drip tray when the machine is idling. From what you are describing, it feels to me your steam boiler is overfilling - and maybe the buzzing you describe could be the pump just trying to keep up now and again. Hard to tell from words, so best for us to see before we start suggesting things.

Nice machine, I really like it.


----------



## colb16

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If you could video the constant buzzing you describe, together with the dripping into the drip tray, that would be very helpful.
> 
> There should be no water going into the drip tray when the machine is idling. From what you are describing, it feels to me your steam boiler is overfilling - and maybe the buzzing you describe could be the pump just trying to keep up now and again. Hard to tell from words, so best for us to see before we start suggesting things.
> 
> Nice machine, I really like it.


 Thanks Medium, really like it as well, big investment but hoping to get a lot of years out of it.

I did try try getting a video a couple of days ago but unfortunately the vibrate is quite low and it didn't pick it up. I know that's not very helpful! I will try again in the morning. I guess it's more like a slight vibrate rather than buzzing sound. The drip is very slow developing and happens 3/4 minutes apart.

Might try take the top off tomorrow and see if that helps in capturing the issue.


----------



## colb16

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If you could video the constant buzzing you describe, together with the dripping into the drip tray, that would be very helpful.
> 
> There should be no water going into the drip tray when the machine is idling. From what you are describing, it feels to me your steam boiler is overfilling - and maybe the buzzing you describe could be the pump just trying to keep up now and again. Hard to tell from words, so best for us to see before we start suggesting things.
> 
> Nice machine, I really like it.


 Attached is a video, unfortunately the vibrate sound that occurs is very low so I'm unable to pick it up on the video. The sound occurs every 30 seconds or so, and on the 60 second interval there is a slight gurgle from the steam boiler - can hear this at 36 sec and 1.36sec. Having listened closely today I located the vibrate sound to the lower right side of the machine, hence why I have the phone near there for the video. I looked at Dave's internal video tour and I'm not sure what would be causing it on that side, as it's just the pump down near the bottom. I might take off the side panel tomorrow to see if it helps in further pinpointing it.






Also, attached is a photo of the drip that occurs from the release valve on the front, again it's every 3-5 minutes. Not sure if it's related or if it's even anything to be concerned about.


----------



## DavecUK

Can't really hear anything.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@colb16 Nor can I. With regards to the drip. There are some hoses which come from the steam boiler. They eventually end up on the drip tray. With the machine idle, can you see any movement on those hoses? Also, if you keep the steam boiler off and leave the machine idling, do you still see anything dripping on the drip tray? (I'd expect not, but worth asking).


----------



## colb16

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @colb16 Nor can I. With regards to the drip. There are some hoses which come from the steam boiler. They eventually end up on the drip tray. With the machine idle, can you see any movement on those hoses? Also, if you keep the steam boiler off and leave the machine idling, do you still see anything dripping on the drip tray? (I'd expect not, but worth asking).


 @MediumRoastSteam @DavecUK I took the panel off today and recorded the sound again, hopefully it's clearer now that I'm closer to the boiler. It happen at 13 sec and again at 1.43. The gurgle sound is preceded by the little vibrate pulse, but as it's so low it's inaudible on the video.






On the drip, I noticed when I took off the panel that here was some air bubbles in one of the hoses, so I removed it and drained some water. It seems to have stopped now so hopefully that has resolved it, will check again tomorrow.

Thanks.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Hmm... It sounds to me the noise you refer to is the heating element kicking in to keep the boiler in the set temperature - absolutely normal. (That's what I can hear).

As for the drip, I am confused.

In your previous post you said:



colb16 said:


> The drip is very slow developing and happens 3/4 minutes apart.


 I take that's every 3 or 4 minutes, rather than 3/4 of a minute?

The hoses will gurgle. It's a junction between a vacuum breaker - which squirts a bit of steam and water as the service/steam boiler reaches 100C. You'll notice that venting out to the drip tray. That's absolutely normal.

The other hose joining in is from the safety valve. That one should never really open during normal operation. As per the name says it's a safety valve and will only open if the boiler is over pressurised.

The other hose is from the expansion valve. With rotary pumps, my understanding is that it serves more like a safety feature as one can simply regulate the pressure at the head of pump. On the Bianca, however, this might not be strictly the case as it has a paddle, so the excess pressure might be directed through the expansion valve. @DavecUK knows this machine really well so I defer it to him.

So, you will have some water in there, and it will drip (as you can see the hope from the expansion valve and vacuum breaker are wet, whereas the safety valve one is dry, so all good there).

I might have misread one of your posts and thought the venting at the front of the machine was dripping every 3/4s (three quarters) of a minute (i.e.: every 40 seconds) when the machine is idling, which is not normal.

You might not have a problem after all.


----------



## colb16

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Hmm... It sounds to me the noise you refer to is the heating element kicking in to keep the boiler in the set temperature - absolutely normal. (That's what I can hear).
> 
> As for the drip, I am confused.
> 
> In your previous post you said:
> 
> I take that's every 3 or 4 minutes, rather than 3/4 of a minute?
> 
> The hoses will gurgle. It's a junction between a vacuum breaker - which squirts a bit of steam and water as the service/steam boiler reaches 100C. You'll notice that venting out to the drip tray. That's absolutely normal.
> 
> The other hose joining in is from the safety valve. That one should never really open during normal operation. As per the name says it's a safety valve and will only open if the boiler is over pressurised.
> 
> The other hose is from the expansion valve. With rotary pumps, my understanding is that it serves more like a safety feature as one can simply regulate the pressure at the head of pump. On the Bianca, however, this might not be strictly the case as it has a paddle, so the excess pressure might be directed through the expansion valve. @DavecUK knows this machine really well so I defer it to him.
> 
> So, you will have some water in there, and it will drip (as you can see the hope from the expansion valve and vacuum breaker are wet, whereas the safety valve one is dry, so all good there).
> 
> I might have misread one of your posts and thought the venting at the front of the machine was dripping every 3/4s (three quarters) of a minute (i.e.: every 40 seconds) when the machine is idling, which is not normal.
> 
> You might not have a problem after all.
> 
> View attachment 52721


 *"Hmm... It sounds to me the noise you refer to is the heating element kicking in to keep the boiler in the set temperature - absolutely normal. (That's what I can hear)" - *thanks for clarifying, I thought it might have something to do with temperature stability but wasn't sure. Would that explain the slight vibrate beforehand as well? As it seems to cycle every 30second to check and then the heating element kicks in when required. I think I my just have over-sensitive hearing!

*"I take that's every 3 or 4 minutes, rather than 3/4 of a minute?"* - sorry, yes it is every 3 or 4 minutes intervals for the drip which again seems normal.

The steam and water venting out when it heats up was all expected, but I wasn't sure if you would continue to have a drip a couple of hours later when the machine is idle, but as you have mentioned that can be from the expansion valve/vacum breaker hoses. So no issue there.

Thanks for prompt reply and detailed explanation.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

colb16 said:


> Would that explain the slight vibrate beforehand as well?


 I can't tell from the video the vibration you allude to. All I can hear is the heating element cycling. Honestly, don't worry about it.

With regards to the drips... Now that you have your machine open: If you backflush with water, or simply just close the paddle totally, do you see water coming out of the expansion valve? That will explain the drips. Again, I don't know the design of the Bianca, but it could also be that your expansion valve needs to be tweaked slightly so it doesn't open under normal usage (i.e.: up to 9 bar). What pressure reading do you read on the gauge when backflushing?


----------



## colb16

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I can't tell from the video the vibration you allude to. All I can hear is the heating element cycling. Honestly, don't worry about it.
> 
> With regards to the drips... Now that you have your machine open: If you backflush with water, or simply just close the paddle totally, do you see water coming out of the expansion valve? That will explain the drips. Again, I don't know the design of the Bianca, but it could also be that your expansion valve needs to be tweaked slightly so it doesn't open under normal usage (i.e.: up to 9 bar). What pressure reading do you read on the gauge when backflushing?


 Yes the vibration is very low and inaudible in the video, I'm assuming it might be related to the heating element cycling, some sort of stability check perhaps.

When I blackflush I don't see any water coming out of the expansion valve, which I assume is a good sign. I'm getting 10 bar on the gauge. I've left it on again this morning, and there doesn't seem to be any drip whilst idle an hour or so after. I did remove some of the tubes attached the the y-connector yesterday and moved the position it was in slightly. Perhaps that's had some affect.


----------



## Alex_L

I've now had my Bianca now for 4 months and throughly impressed with it and enjoying experimenting with the flow control but have concluded I need a grinder upgrade. A couple of questions for other owners:

1. I've noticed that the steam wand occasionally leaks water and a bit of steam at the nut below the valve. I've tightened it maybe half a turn with a wrench to stop the water dripping but wasn't sure how tight to go as I can still hear a hiss if I put a damp microfibre cloth around it after steaming?

2. I've also noticed the ball joint on the steam wand isn't perpendicular to the valve that comes out of the front panel (compared to the hot water one that is) - aesthetic more than anything but wondering how easy to adjust?


----------



## DavecUK

Have a look at this, your wand would be similar....That big chrome nut also has an o ring inside that seals against the bottom of the ball joint..It's an area that should be kept lubricated with Molykote 111, sadly most owners never do and also move the steam wand about when it's quite cold...if it's not lubricated at all, that simply tears up the O ring. It's a maintenance item and I need to get around to doing a Morning coffee vid on it...but so busy.



every month use a cocktail stick and work some molykote onto the upper part of the ball joint and move the wand around


every 6 months, remove the nut and inspect the o ring, lubricate the inside and lubricate the brass cup


----------



## Alex_L

> 47 minutes ago, DavecUK said:
> 
> Have a look at this, your wand would be similar....That big chrome nut also has an o ring inside that seals against the bottom of the ball joint..It's an area that should be kept lubricated with Molykote 111, sadly most owners never do and also move the steam wand about when it's quite cold...if it's not lubricated at all, that simply tears up the O ring. It's a maintenance item and I need to get around to doing a Morning coffee vid on it...but so busy.
> 
> 
> 
> every month use a cocktail stick and work some molykote onto the upper part of the ball joint and move the wand around
> 
> 
> every 6 months, remove the nut and inspect the o ring, lubricate the inside and lubricate the brass cup


 Thank you. That makes sense and something to add to my monthly to-do list!. I think the chrome nut was a bit loose when it arrived (it was just about hand tight) so hopefully a combination of tightening it and lubricating it per your advice will solve the problem.


----------



## DavecUK

The nut shouldn't be too tight....


----------



## Alex_L

Hmmmm. When I first noticed the dripping I hand tightened it which stopped that but could still notice a hiss after steaming so used a wrench to tighten about half a turn further. My assumption being it shouldn't be hissing by design (I asked Bella baristas opinion but never heard back). Given how new it is I assume the o-ring can't have gone already (taking account obviously that I haven't lubricated it in the 4 months I've had it)?


----------



## DavecUK

Alex_L said:


> Hmmmm. When I first noticed the dripping I hand tightened it which stopped that but could still notice a hiss after steaming so used a wrench to tighten about half a turn further. My assumption being it shouldn't be hissing by design (I asked Bella baristas opinion but never heard back). Given how new it is I assume the o-ring can't have gone already (taking account obviously that I haven't lubricated it in the 4 months I've had it)?


 Well yes it can have gone if you never lubricated it, and played it like a fiddle when cold...of course it could just be dry...you whip that nut off and ave a good look, give it a good lube including any nylon white washer at the top, the top of the ball joint and see how you go after a bit of TLC


----------



## Alex_L

DavecUK said:


> Well yes it can have gone if you never lubricated it, and played it like a fiddle when cold...of course it could just be dry...you whip that nut off and ave a good look, give it a good lube including any nylon white washer at the top, the top of the ball joint and see how you go after a bit of TLC


 It's on from 5am - 11pm everyday so never touched cold so will see how it's looking.

It's a great machine but the manual is somewhat lacking on maintenance instructions. I've noted the following from my own reading and looking at the lelit YouTube channel:

- cleaning and sterilising the water tank

- disassembling and lubricating the e61 after chemical back flush

- Shower screen cleaning

- NEW: ball joint lubrication for steam / water taps

Are there any other regular maintenance tasks I should be completing?


----------



## DavecUK

@Alex_L a few, I'm a bit busy with manufacturer feedback at the mo, but have a look at my morning coffee series on YouTube, specially about the shower screen.


----------



## Alex_L

@DavecUK Thank you. I'll take a look but I've been following the shower screen one regularly since I got it. I will for my own sanity put together a list of maintenance tasks for the Bianca as there doesn't seem to be a consolidated one.


----------



## DavecUK

Alex_L said:


> @DavecUK Thank you. I'll take a look but I've been following the shower screen one regularly since I got it. I will for my own sanity put together a list of maintenance tasks for the Bianca as there doesn't seem to be a consolidated one.


 Oh just remembered, maintain the paddle system I did a review of the paddle system on my review site an linked to a video as well.

Very important.


----------



## benoit3000

Hi Bianca owners...

After much research I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on a Bianca.

im aware it's well stocked with 'extras' as standard but wondered what other upgrades/accessories current owners would recommend please?

e.g. are IMS screens/VST baskets worth it?

also heard a wifi plug is essential.

anythjng else?

Also... I won't plumb the machine in for a while. Therefore my water option at the moment is a Peak Water jug - anyone know how good this is vs. bottled water vs. RO system like an osmio? Conscious I feed the machine decent water from the outset. (I live in Bristol which has relatively hard water).

thanks for any advice/thoughts folks

chris 👍🏼


----------



## Alpesh

Hi Chris

I would suggest using the stock screen and baskets to start with as they are very good and you'll get excellent results with those.

Wi-Fi plug is handy but not required. I've often forgotten to start the machine after getting distracted but fortunately the heat-up time is very good on the Bianca.

Decent grinder, a set of scales that measure to 0.1g accuracy (I have the inexpensive Brifit ones), knock box and optionally a leveller and you're good to go. Oh and an old takeaway container when cleaning the shower head and unused paintbrush to clean baskets after de-puck (tips from watching Dave's videos).

In terms of water I'm using bottled Volvic. There's a few topics on this forum with other recommendations. I'd go the Osmio route but counter-space in the kitchen is becoming limited.

Hope that helps.

Alpesh


----------



## Luca06

@benoit3000: I swapped the shower screen for an IMS screen. Probably it compensates a bit the lack of my technique. I also use 18 and 20g VST. But they do require a precise workflow. The stock basket for the start worked perfect. For my personal use a WiFi Plug isn't needed. It heats up fairly quickly. I use a BWT filter jug.

Tamper etc. come with the machine. I only purchased a Lelit distribution tool and a WDT-Tool of Etsy. Last one matches the wood of the machine nicely.


----------



## Mrboots2u

benoit3000 said:


> Hi Bianca owners...
> 
> After much research I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on a Bianca.
> 
> im aware it's well stocked with 'extras' as standard but wondered what other upgrades/accessories current owners would recommend please?
> 
> e.g. are IMS screens/VST baskets worth it?
> 
> also heard a wifi plug is essential.
> 
> anythjng else?
> 
> Also... I won't plumb the machine in for a while. Therefore my water option at the moment is a Peak Water jug - anyone know how good this is vs. bottled water vs. RO system like an osmio? Conscious I feed the machine decent water from the outset. (I live in Bristol which has relatively hard water).
> 
> thanks for any advice/thoughts folks
> 
> chris 👍🏼


 Shower screen - not convinced it makes much difference , may last longer ? I swapped mine out . In general depth and height of screen has a bigger effect with headroom than nanotechnology.

VST baskets - more holes bigger surface area , allows for a finer grind and longer low flow ( if you are doing that ) . Will you taste a difference, entirely subjective. I have used nothing but VST baskets for about 8 yeas now , so know no other .

WiFi plug, - i have mine in Eco mode , takes what 1-2 mins to get to stream power so dont use it.

The Bianca with its paddle is as hard or easy as you want to make it. The pre programmed pre infusion is a waste of time , I'd skip using that, all you are doing it turning the pump on and off.


----------



## Baffo

Mrboots2u said:


> . The pre programmed pre infusion is a waste of time , I'd skip using that, all you are doing it turning the pump on and off.


 How come? Surely it can all be done (and more)via the paddle, but in case you couldn't be fussed on some days (or, if you wanted to use the paddle to focus on other aspects such as declining pressure towards the end of a shot), wouldn't you benefit from having a long "pump on" electronic preinfusion anyway, also considering that it would be far more "repeatable" than using the paddle?

Apologies if the question is silly as I'm rather inexperienced, I would've thought that the electronic preinfusion could be very useful to be used in conjunction with the paddle.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Baffo said:


> How come? Surely it can all be done (and more)via the paddle, but in case you couldn't be fussed on some days (or, if you wanted to use the paddle to focus on other aspects such as declining pressure towards the end of a shot), wouldn't you benefit from having a long "pump on" electronic preinfusion anyway, also considering that it would be far more "repeatable" than using the paddle?
> 
> Apologies if the question is silly as I'm rather inexperienced, I would've thought that the electronic preinfusion could be very useful to be used in conjunction with the paddle.


 The paddle is repeatable , people seem to get hung up on trying to hit the same pressure and the gauge , what the paddle does is controlling flow , not pump pressure . They assume If they dint hit the same pressure in the same position than its the paddles fault. The

You can put the paddle in the same position for two shots, but if you are using different grinds and doses it will register different pressures on the group head gauge as this is a fucnction of the flow versus resistance the coffee and the puck produces .

Turning the pump of on and off is only doing so at 9 bar and with the flow set to one flow so are you setting it to a long low flow all the way through the shot ? You can use it but i don't find it an easier but give it a go.

If you want a loving preinfsuion stick a low flow on with the paddle then open it up when you want.


----------



## Baffo

@Mrboots2u makes sense. When I read about it, I thought that the electronic pre-infusion was done at low pressure.


----------



## Alpesh

DavecUK said:


> Oh just remembered, maintain the paddle system I did a review of the paddle system on my review site an linked to a video as well.
> 
> Very important.


 This video I believe: 




Added to my maintenance list as well.


----------



## DavecUK

Alpesh said:


> This video I believe:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Added to my maintenance list as well.


 That's the one


----------



## benoit3000

Alpesh said:


> Hi Chris
> 
> I would suggest using the stock screen and baskets to start with as they are very good and you'll get excellent results with those.
> 
> Wi-Fi plug is handy but not required. I've often forgotten to start the machine after getting distracted but fortunately the heat-up time is very good on the Bianca.
> 
> Decent grinder, a set of scales that measure to 0.1g accuracy (I have the inexpensive Brifit ones), knock box and optionally a leveller and you're good to go. Oh and an old takeaway container when cleaning the shower head and unused paintbrush to clean baskets after de-puck (tips from watching Dave's videos).
> 
> In terms of water I'm using bottled Volvic. There's a few topics on this forum with other recommendations. I'd go the Osmio route but counter-space in the kitchen is becoming limited.
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> Alpesh


 Thanks a lot @Alpesh - I have scales and a grinder so all set there. Knock box a good shout though.

ive heard mixed things on the leveller - you got one? Recommend it?


----------



## benoit3000

Luca06 said:


> only purchased a Lelit distribution tool and a WDT-Tool of Etsy.


 thanks @Luca06 - helpful points. So you use a leveller AND a WDT thingy? Thought they might do same job, no?


----------



## Luca06

I noticed by using a leveller only, it creates a flat surface on the top but not through the entire coffee bed. I often had the problem with levelling and tamping only that dry spots occurred or the flow rate was different on various spots. By including WDT (stirring the grounds), it mixes up nice and fluffy and solves that problem.

At least this is my personal preference. I am sure barista professionals will have mixed opinions. From tapping, levelling, nutating etc. I personally think levelers are a bit waste of money. I bought 2 expensive ones but only really use them to create a flat bed for tamping. But without them, it's harder to tamp evenly.

Once you are on the gear, I am sure you'll go through all the stages and investing in some sort of leveller will be a path one considers at some point.

I would go for a leveller instantly and leave the WDT for later. If you do struggle with distribution and extraction problems followed by it, you can look into WDT.


----------



## Alpesh

benoit3000 said:


> Thanks a lot @Alpesh - I have scales and a grinder so all set there. Knock box a good shout though.
> 
> ive heard mixed things on the leveller - you got one? Recommend it?


 I was skeptical at first but then bought the Lelit leveller 58.55mm from Bella Barista and see less channelling and greater consistency as a result.

I also tamp very lightly with finger tips only and polish after levelling - the tamper that comes with the Bianca is good in my opinion. Mixed opinion of whether there is a need to tamp as well but I prefer to.

I don't do WDT (yet) as I'm getting pretty consistent results without but let's see still early days.

This is the leveller I bought (mid-priced😞

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/brands/lelit-58mm-levelling-tool-1.html

Regards

Alpesh


----------



## jonr2

Alex_L said:


> @DavecUK Thank you. I'll take a look but I've been following the shower screen one regularly since I got it. I will for my own sanity put together a list of maintenance tasks for the Bianca as there doesn't seem to be a consolidated one.


 @Alex_L - if you do pull together a maintenance list could you share it - i just pulled the trigger on ordering a Bianca and it would save me a job 🙂


----------



## Baffo

jonr2 said:


> @Alex_L - if you do pull together a maintenance list could you share it - i just pulled the trigger on ordering a Bianca and it would save me a job 🙂


 I think there's this post which already has done a great job for the MaraX - I am quoting a bit of it at the bottom of this post, which details what tools are needed. Essentially, the same would apply to the Bianca. We can use it as a starting point. It lays down what to buy (Puly Caff, a wrench, lubricant), and has a few links.

@DavecUK YouTube's channel has a few videos that cover routine maintenance items that apply to all machines, such as Removing & Cleaning E61 shower screen (he suggests it be done every couple days) after-shot cleaning, E61 cam lubrication (every 4-8 weeks I assume, depending on how often you backflush with detergent). And in general plenty of videos about cleaning such as this.

The below + the above is probably covering most if not all bases. But probably:

*After every shot*: brush grouphead and pf (I'm lazy so probably would do this at the end of every day)

*At the end of every day*: backflush with water only

*Every 2-4 days*: clean shower screen. Dave will cringe at the "4 days" scenario, so let's pretend I said "every other day".

*Every few weeks*: backflush with detergent and then lubricate cam lever. Immerse PF in hot water with detergent as well. @DavecUK, would you say this can be stretched to 8 weeks or more, provided that daily water backflush is adhered to?

*Every few months*: probably so many other things other than the steam ball joint lubrication.

Ideally either this could be edited into the initial post, or a similar could be created with a "starter guide".

*Maintenance*



Puly caff


Adjustable Wrench


Lubricant


E61 lubrication guide


E61 grouphead maintenance


E61 understanding the group mushroom


How to descale video


How to drain the boiler video


----------



## jonr2

Baffo said:


> I think there's this post which already has done a great job for the MaraX - I am quoting a bit of it at the bottom of this post, which details what tools are needed. Essentially, the same would apply to the Bianca. We can use it as a starting point. It lays down what to buy (Puly Caff, a wrench, lubricant), and has a few links.
> 
> @DavecUK YouTube's channel has a few videos that cover routine maintenance items that apply to all machines, such as Removing & Cleaning E61 shower screen (he suggests it be done every couple days) after-shot cleaning, E61 cam lubrication (every 4-8 weeks I assume, depending on how often you backflush with detergent). And in general plenty of videos about cleaning such as this.
> 
> The below + the above is probably covering most if not all bases. But probably:
> 
> *After every shot*: brush grouphead and pf (I'm lazy so probably would do this at the end of every day)
> 
> *At the end of every day*: backflush with water only
> 
> *Every 2-4 days*: clean shower screen. Dave will cringe at the "4 days" scenario, so let's pretend I said "every other day".
> 
> *Every few weeks*: backflush with detergent and then lubricate cam lever. Immerse PF in hot water with detergent as well. @DavecUK, would you say this can be stretched to 8 weeks or more, provided that daily water backflush is adhered to?
> 
> *Every few months*: probably so many other things other than the steam ball joint lubrication.
> 
> Ideally either this could be edited into the initial post, or a similar could be created with a "starter guide".
> 
> *Maintenance*
> 
> 
> 
> Puly caff
> 
> 
> Adjustable Wrench
> 
> 
> Lubricant
> 
> 
> E61 lubrication guide
> 
> 
> E61 grouphead maintenance
> 
> 
> E61 understanding the group mushroom
> 
> 
> How to descale video
> 
> 
> How to drain the boiler video


 @Baffo - thanks for this - super helpful 🙂


----------



## Baffo

First day, first problems. Perhaps I'm being stupid, but I can't quite figure out what else to do. Ideally I wouldn't want to return this on the first day..

Issue: excess pressure coming out of the little safety valve (unsure of the name). Like so:






I tried solving it by:

- turning machine off

- opened both steam and hot water knobs until boiler is completely empty

- close knobs (without cranking them)

- turn machine back on

Tried twice. Problem still persists. It could be a recurrent issue. What to do?

edit: upon further research, looks like it might be a common issue. Would probably need to replace the temp probe.. Grr


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

That's annoying. Where did you buy it from? Was it Bella Barista? Don't they bench test their machines? I thought they did?

Usually you see a bit of water/steam coming out of that when the machine first heats up until the vacuum breaker seals up. After that, there shouldn't be anything coming out from there, maybe a few drips if the OPV opens. Certainly not steam!


----------



## cuprajake

Thats shute 😭


----------



## Baffo

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That's annoying. Where did you buy it from? Was it Bella Barista? Don't they bench test their machines? I thought they did?
> 
> Usually you see a bit of water/steam coming out of that when the machine first heats up until the vacuum breaker seals up. After that, there shouldn't be anything coming out from there, maybe a few drips if the OPV opens. Certainly not steam!


 Well I thought they did too, but clearly not in my case...


----------



## cuprajake

Heard that a few times of not bench testing.

My minima took a tad longer to get del as it was being bench tested over the weekend.

Fingers crossed its a quick fix, cant imagine how 😠😡🤬 you are right now, it would be getting thrown through their shop window


----------



## Baffo

Cuprajake said:


> Heard that a few times of not bench testing.
> 
> My minima took a tad longer to get del as it was being bench tested over the weekend.
> 
> Fingers crossed its a quick fix, cant imagine how 😠😡🤬 you are right now, it would be getting thrown through their shop window


 Yeah well, it's fine if an issue arises over time, but when a machine is faulty out of the box, it gets rather annoying, cause now I'd probably have to wait biblical times for replacement parts to come from Italy.. Unless they have a probe at hand (I hope they will) and ship it asap.

The repair itself seems not too difficult, and I want to be in a positive state of mind and take it as an opportunity to learn more about the inner workings of the machine. But it's s***e that it happened on Day 1..


----------



## cuprajake

Be back at there door, day one and a fault. Not for me not at nearly 2k of machine.


----------



## Baffo

Put me off a little bit from buying a Solo grinder tbh. Anyway, I'll call first thing on Monday. I've already emailed with the evidence.

@jonr2 is yours working flawlessly? They must be from the same batch.


----------



## jonr2

Baffo said:


> Put me off a little bit from buying a Solo grinder tbh. Anyway, I'll call first thing on Monday. I've already emailed with the evidence.
> 
> @jonr2 is yours working flawlessly? They must be from the same batch.


 hey - it does seem to be (fingers crossed) - also when i did the initial start up yesterday it was shortened showing that the machine had been tested by BB - i am gutted for you 😞 hope it can get sorted quickly


----------



## jonr2

Baffo said:


> Put me off a little bit from buying a Solo grinder tbh. Anyway, I'll call first thing on Monday. I've already emailed with the evidence.
> 
> @jonr2 is yours working flawlessly? They must be from the same batch.


 that said - i just looked at your video - the progress bar shows that the start up sequence hasnt finished right and the steam pressure is showing zero.

during start up mine does leak some steam out of that valve for a bit but then it stops (i think like described by @MediumRoastSteam above)


----------



## HVL87

Baffo said:


> Yeah well, it's fine if an issue arises over time, but when a machine is faulty out of the box, it gets rather annoying, cause now I'd probably have to wait biblical times for replacement parts to come from Italy.. Unless they have a probe at hand (I hope they will) and ship it asap.
> 
> The repair itself seems not too difficult, and I want to be in a positive state of mind and take it as an opportunity to learn more about the inner workings of the machine. But it's s***e that it happened on Day 1..


 That is very upsetting I'm sure. It really should go back to BB. Maybe something happened in transit. Was it delivered via courier or pallet?


----------



## Baffo

jonr2 said:


> that said - i just looked at your video - the progress bar shows that the start up sequence hasnt finished right and the steam pressure is showing zero.
> 
> during start up mine does leak some steam out of that valve for a bit but then it stops (i think like described by @MediumRoastSteam above)


 Which start up sequence did you follow? The one from Dave's video I assume? I turned machine on and immediately opened the brew water, then turned it off.


----------



## jonr2

Baffo said:


> Which start up sequence did you follow? The one from Dave's video I assume? I turned machine on and immediately opened the brew water, then turned it off.


 from Page 4 of his manual - i switched it on, immediately the steam boiler filled (it didnt show the level image as described in the Lelit manual) - then after that i just followed the instructions on page 4


----------



## Baffo

@jonr2 well that's what I've done as well. I've ignored the first few seconds of the video about resetting the PID.

How do you see that the procedure is not complete from my video? Should I reset it to factory settings and try again?

I'll just try it from the start on page 3..


----------



## jonr2

Baffo said:


> @jonr2 well that's what I've done as well. I've ignored the first few seconds of the video about resetting the PID.
> 
> How do you see that the procedure is not complete from my video? Should I reset it to factory settings and try again?
> 
> I'll just try it from the start on page 3..


 just switched mine on and allowed it to heat up - video shows the steam release and then stops


----------



## Baffo

> 2 minutes ago, jonr2 said:
> 
> just switched mine on and allowed it to heat up - video shows the steam release and then stops


 So is that steam coming out normal, if it lasts only for a handful of seconds? (mine doesn't).


----------



## jonr2

Baffo said:


> So is that steam coming out normal, if it lasts only for a handful of seconds? (mine doesn't).


 as far as i know that is normal - mine does it everytime it is switched on so hope so 🙂

but yes each time it has stopped after 5-10 secs as per video


----------



## Baffo

jonr2 said:


> as far as i know that is normal - mine does it everytime it is switched on so hope so 🙂
> 
> but yes each time it has stopped after 5-10 secs as per video


 Mine seems to have improved after the reset but I don't know if it's working ok now.. It still leaks and puffs for a while but it stops. It continues dripping though, albeit slowly, even after reaching 1.4bar. I still don't know if it's normal to have excess pressure like that, and dripping that continues.


----------



## jonr2

Baffo said:


> Mine seems to have improved after the reset but I don't know if it's working ok now.. It still leaks and puffs for a while but it stops. It continues dripping though, albeit slowly, even after reaching 1.4bar. I still don't know if it's normal to have excess pressure like that, and dripping that continues.


 yes so i have noticed that happening - like 1 drip per 2-5 mins or so


----------



## Baffo

jonr2 said:


> yes so i have noticed that happening - like 1 drip per 2-5 mins or so


 Mine is more like 1 drip per 5-10 secs. But perhaps it will improve.

Not to mention another thing that I'd need to change (but not today..). The paddle, when completely to the right, still allows for water to flow through the grouphead. As far as I understand, it shouldn't (also cause I can't really do pre-infusion if it doesn't stop the water flow..).

Is yours working like this or?


----------



## jonr2

Baffo said:


> Mine is more like 1 drip per 5-10 secs. But perhaps it will improve.
> 
> Not to mention another thing that I'd need to change (but not today..). The paddle, when completely to the right, still allows for water to flow through the grouphead. As far as I understand, it shouldn't (also cause I can't really do pre-infusion if it doesn't stop the water flow..).
> 
> Is yours working like this or?


 oh yeah i would wait and see what happens with the drip over time - leave it on for a while and see

on the paddle side - if you go to the videos mentioned in the handbook - one of them is about adjusting the paddle correctly i think - but i havent done anything with mine yet - just focusing on pulling 'normal' shots - sorry i can't be more help 😞


----------



## Baffo

It's fine, you've been very helpful already.. I'll see what happens with the machine tomorrow morning, if it puffs for just a handful of seconds then it's fine I guess.. But would be nice to understand whether it should do *any* puffing at all. If it's not harming the machine and it's safe, then all good.. Still don't understand what went wrong the first time.

Sir @DavecUK if you have time can you comment on this? You have used the Bianca so I'm sure you'll know.


----------



## DavecUK

@Baffo Yeah it's all good, I actually purchased the prototype (I had my reasons and was flush with cash then), so mine might not vent from the vacuum breaker into the drip tray. Yours looks perfectly normal and you get a little show as well....count yourself lucky my man.


----------



## Baffo

DavecUK said:


> @Baffo Yeah it's all good, I actually purchased the prototype (I had my reasons and was flush with cash then), so mine might not vent from the vacuum breaker into the drip tray. Yours looks perfectly normal and you get a little show as well....count yourself lucky my man.


 Phew, thanks Dave. I will see if tomorrow it stops after a few seconds, and if it does, then no more anger, and back to watching your great videos on how to set the paddle correctly.


----------



## Alex_L

Baffo said:


> Put me off a little bit from buying a Solo grinder tbh. Anyway, I'll call first thing on Monday. I've already emailed with the evidence.
> 
> @jonr2 is yours working flawlessly? They must be from the same batch.


 I emailed them twice about a couple of minor things (including a missing user guide) with mine and have yet to hear back a month later. They were much more responsive pre-sale......

I'd recommend taking the water tank off as I moved mine recently to the side (great feature) a few months into ownership and discovered a nice small dent in the back panel which was hidden by the tank previously. Minor aesthetic issue undoubtedly but not hugely impressive QC.


----------



## DavecUK

Baffo said:


> Phew, thanks Dave. I will see if tomorrow it stops after a few seconds, and if it does, then no more anger, and back to watching your great videos on how to set the paddle correctly.


 made a series of 8 specials (I think it was 😎 ) Unlisted and linked to in the user guide only. In fact If I ever bring Bianca back into service, I would probably have to watch them myself.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Baffo said:


> But would be nice to understand whether it should do *any* puffing at all. If it's not harming the machine and it's safe, then all good


 All HX and DBs will "puff" at the start. Lelit, Profitec, ECM, Rocket (at least the more modern ones) will vent the vacuum breaker to the drip tray, hence the puffing during the start up of the service boiler (steam boiler). The vacuum breaker will shut as soon as the water temperature reaches approx 100C.

If yours doesn't do any "puffing" when idling, then all is well and there's no issues with your machine. You could turn the machine on and check that now... As we are all waiting in anticipation to know what the verdict is! 😂


----------



## Baffo

MediumRoastSteam said:


> All HX and DBs will "puff" at the start. Lelit, Profitec, ECM, Rocket (at least the more modern ones) will vent the vacuum breaker to the drip tray, hence the puffing during the start up of the service boiler (steam boiler). The vacuum breaker will shut as soon as the water temperature reaches approx 100C.
> 
> If yours doesn't do any "puffing" when idling, then all is well and there's no issues with your machine. You could turn the machine on and check that now... As we are all waiting in anticipation to know what the verdict is! 😂


 I think we're in the clear. It does it much less now, and then steam pressure ramps up nicely.

I have no idea what happened as I have just done the startup procedure as the first time. But I suppose if something is working, then let's not question why?

Can anybody watch this and confirm?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@Baffo - Looks good to me, and this is exactly what it should be doing. My machines did (do) exactly the same. Gets to about 100C, water starts boiling, vapour is released and becomes under pressure. Vacuum breaker shuts and pressure starts rising.

Also Baffo, do follow DavecUK's recommendation for PID settings and overall display settings. The temperature you see is NOT the actual temperature, but the set temperature. You can change that.


----------



## Baffo

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @Baffo - Looks good to me, and this is exactly what it should be doing. My machines did (do) exactly the same. Gets to about 100C, water starts boiling, vapour is released and becomes under pressure. Vacuum breaker shuts and pressure starts rising.
> 
> Also Baffo, do follow DavecUK's recommendation for PID settings and overall display settings. The temperature you see is NOT the actual temperature, but the set temperature. You can change that.


 Thank you. Phew! I wonder what was wrong the first time.

I will surely watch all of Dave's content in due time, thank you.

Paddle will be the first fix, without preinfusion I'm struggling to get some beans not to be too acidic (I guess I had to start with the ones with strawberry jam flavour notes eh!)


----------



## jonr2

> 1 hour ago, Baffo said:
> 
> I think we're in the clear. It does it much less now, and then steam pressure ramps up nicely.
> 
> I have no idea what happened as I have just done the startup procedure as the first time. But I suppose if something is working, then let's not question why?
> 
> Can anybody watch this and confirm?


 that looks exactly the same as mine - so far the changes i have made are:

KPC from 0.8 to 0.4 (push and hold + & - when switching on and you get to the right menu and it is the first option - push + once to get the number flashing and then - 4 times to get to 0.4)

Brew temp to 92 from 95 preset - guess this depends on the temp you want

I set the preinfusion to 5s on and 5s off - whilst i get used to the machine & the pump pressure seems set to 10 bar

Paddle seems ok, as in no water comes through when it is fully left

Good luck 🙂


----------



## Luca06

@Baffo - I have the Lelit Bianca and it does exactly the same. Once fully on temperature the display stops flickering and the dripping from the valve stops.


----------



## HVL87

Baffo said:


> Thank you. Phew! I wonder what was wrong the first time.
> 
> I will surely watch all of Dave's content in due time, thank you.
> 
> Paddle will be the first fix, without preinfusion I'm struggling to get some beans not to be too acidic (I guess I had to start with the ones with strawberry jam flavour notes eh!)


 Now it's time to put all your theory into practice 😄


----------



## Baffo

HVL87 said:


> Now it's time to put all your theory into practice 😄


 I would love to video it and document my journey so that the masses can laugh at me, but I don't quite have the video equipment. Perhaps I should resell the Niche on eBay in April and buy a Solo + some video equipment.. (and a car, probably)


----------



## Baffo

Nobody asked for this. Nobody wanted this.

Brewing / paddling whilst holding your phone can be confusing, was supposed to stop at 40g out (18g in) but got distracted haha. I think I might have ground too coarse or puck prep wasn't optimal (my rationale is that 1 it wasn't holding 2bar and 2 it struggled to reach 9 bar at full flow) but the shot turned not too bad.

Any comment and feedback welcome but please realise it's my first time after just watching videos, and having to hold the phone didn't help 🤣


----------



## cuprajake

Did goog buddy

As soon as you start paddling time goes out the window and work of weight anyway

I too was shocked hoe little movements can drastically change the pressure on the gauge.

Super jealous of the bianca.

Silence. Infact i mite sell the minima and upgrade.

Well done


----------



## Baffo

Cuprajake said:


> Did goog buddy
> 
> As soon as you start paddling time goes out the window and work of weight anyway
> 
> I too was shocked hoe little movements can drastically change the pressure on the gauge.
> 
> Super jealous of the bianca.
> 
> Silence. Infact i mite sell the minima and upgrade.
> 
> Well done


 Yeah it's so silent that in the video you can even hear my breath with my morning stuffy nose 🤣


----------



## DavecUK

Baffo said:


> Yeah it's so silent that in the video you can even hear my breath with my morning stuffy nose 🤣


 That was the only problem with the prototype I purchased, the pump is not as silent as the production machines....Must get around to fixing that...I'm pretty sure it's pump mountings. I should ask Lelit for a set of the current ones.


----------



## HVL87

> 2 hours ago, Baffo said:
> 
> Nobody asked for this. Nobody wanted this.
> 
> Brewing / paddling whilst holding your phone can be confusing, was supposed to stop at 40g out (18g in) but got distracted haha. I think I might have ground too coarse or puck prep wasn't optimal (my rationale is that 1 it wasn't holding 2bar and 2 it struggled to reach 9 bar at full flow) but the shot turned not too bad.
> 
> Any comment and feedback welcome but please realise it's my first time after just watching videos, and having to hold the phone didn't help 🤣


 Looks like good fun! Very quiet indeed. Have you made a decent tasting shot without profiling yet?


----------



## jonr2

> 2 hours ago, Baffo said:
> 
> Nobody asked for this. Nobody wanted this.
> 
> Brewing / paddling whilst holding your phone can be confusing, was supposed to stop at 40g out (18g in) but got distracted haha. I think I might have ground too coarse or puck prep wasn't optimal (my rationale is that 1 it wasn't holding 2bar and 2 it struggled to reach 9 bar at full flow) but the shot turned not too bad.
> 
> Any comment and feedback welcome but please realise it's my first time after just watching videos, and having to hold the phone didn't help 🤣


 impressed - i tried something similar this am (without trying to video it) and was all over the place - my excuse is i can only compute (really slowly) 1 thing at a time and so all the whilst i am pratting about with the paddle the coffee is coming out and i pretty much had a vat of it by the end 🙂


----------



## jonr2

Cuprajake said:


> Did goog buddy
> 
> As soon as you start paddling time goes out the window and work of weight anyway
> 
> I too was shocked hoe little movements can drastically change the pressure on the gauge.
> 
> Super jealous of the bianca.
> 
> Silence. *Infact i mite sell the minima and upgrade.*
> 
> Well done


 i dont think anyone on this forum would take the bet on you not having a bianca before Easter 🙂 - but the good thing is WHEN you do get one at least you will have had practice profiling - am impressed with your skills - modded Mazzer and Minima 👏 - i was thinking of putting a plastic container in the drip tray does that count as a mod?


----------



## thusband

> 2 hours ago, Baffo said:
> 
> Nobody asked for this. Nobody wanted this.
> 
> Brewing / paddling whilst holding your phone can be confusing, was supposed to stop at 40g out (18g in) but got distracted haha. I think I might have ground too coarse or puck prep wasn't optimal (my rationale is that 1 it wasn't holding 2bar and 2 it struggled to reach 9 bar at full flow) but the shot turned not too bad.
> 
> Any comment and feedback welcome but please realise it's my first time after just watching videos, and having to hold the phone didn't help 🤣


 I'll have to try your profiling. I've been holding the paddle to the left letting pressure climb slowly up to 10 bar or so over 10 or 12 seconds. As soon I see some drops I open it up to 8 or 9 bar. After 20 or so seconds I drop it down to 5 or 6 bar shooting for 36 g out (18 g in) at around 30 seconds.

Maybe we're basically doing the same thing.


----------



## cuprajake

@jonr2 i hoping when we move once the minima is out in the open not enclosed in a corner its going to tone the pump noise down, thats really my only gripe.

I was weighing up an l1 before aswell as the Elizabeth and sound/looks was a big factor for me

The flow control is a game changer though


----------



## jonr2

@Cuprajake i would say it would reduce the noise - try putting the radio on or something whilst you are pulling a shot - once you have a noise in your head it is really hard to not keep hearing it - maybe distraction therapy will help


----------



## DavecUK

Cuprajake said:


> @jonr2 i hoping when we move once the minima is out in the open not enclosed in a corner its going to tone the pump noise down, thats really my only gripe.
> 
> I was weighing up an l1 before aswell as the Elizabeth and sound/looks was a big factor for me
> 
> The flow control is a game changer though


 A corner does amplify noise, I used to have machines in the corner and it acts like a megaphone. There is always the lelit pump...super quiet. You could check out a "membrane regulator" as well....


----------



## DavecUK

I would add on the scale of Noise, even if we assumed the Bianca to be completely silent, the Minima is only 0.0035% noiser than the Bianca overall. So for a Noise difference of far, far less than 1%, you are paying quite a steep extra charge.










Note: based on 6 shots per day


----------



## HVL87

DavecUK said:


> A corner does amplify noise, I used to have machines in the corner and it acts like a megaphone. There is always the lelit pump...super quiet. You could check out a "membrane regulator" as well....


 What is a membrane regulator?


----------



## DavecUK

HVL87 said:


> What is a membrane regulator?


 Fits on outlet of vibe pump, can make them a lot quieter


----------



## cuprajake

@jonr2 the wife suggest earplug in response to an £1800 machine 😂😂😂🤔


----------



## cuprajake

@DavecUK an added overhead cupboards to boot!!

Im im going into the machine get to the pump the siloent x would prob be fotted. But ill have a look at what you just suggested also.


----------



## jonr2

Cuprajake said:


> @jonr2 the wife suggest earplug in response to an £1800 machine 😂😂😂🤔


 spouses are an endless source of support arent they 🤣🤣


----------



## DavecUK

Cuprajake said:


> @DavecUK an added overhead cupboards to boot!!
> 
> Im im going into the machine get to the pump the siloent x would prob be fotted. But ill have a look at what you just suggested also.


 I didn't understand this, but it's a lot of effort for a 0.0035% noise reduction overall against a machine that's for example, completely silent.


----------



## cuprajake

Sorry it should of said if im


----------



## cuprajake

Im being way to overly fussy 😂🤣


----------



## Baffo

jonr2 said:


> impressed - i tried something similar this am (without trying to video it) and was all over the place - my excuse is i can only compute (really slowly) 1 thing at a time and so all the whilst i am pratting about with the paddle the coffee is coming out and i pretty much had a vat of it by the end 🙂


 Thanks Jon. I have to say, getting the pre-infusion right is still 50/50. Keeping the pressure steady at 2 bar especially.. Maybe I'm still grinding too coarse, but pressure goes all around, either drops too low, or too high, you get distracted one second and you're at 4 bar and coffee is pouring out like mad and you're like "oh feck pre-infusion, I'll wing it!". I don't know if I should just stop the flow when I get to 2 bar and let it drop, or try and keep it steady?



thusband said:


> I'll have to try your profiling. I've been holding the paddle to the left letting pressure climb slowly up to 10 bar or so over 10 or 12 seconds. As soon I see some drops I open it up to 8 or 9 bar. After 20 or so seconds I drop it down to 5 or 6 bar shooting for 36 g out (18 g in) at around 30 seconds.
> 
> Maybe we're basically doing the same thing.


 I think more or less it's a potayto potato (or cortaydo cortado?). Yours sounds like a lever shot kinda? To be honest I'm not that good at paddling yet that I can have a plan and stick to it.



HVL87 said:


> Looks like good fun! Very quiet indeed. Have you made a decent tasting shot without profiling yet?


 Well, yes. Now, for reasons that I shall not explain, I have four (4) different bags at home. Miscalculations.. All of these are different roasts. Me being a baby, I am sort of wanting to try all of them.

Now, I think the paddle is super fun but it's going to be challenging at first. Normal people will have experience by the time they touch a Bianca. They have their grinder, they read the flavour notes, and they're like "right, this sounds like a medium roast, I know that a good starting point would be to grind at around X setting on the grinder."

The paddle makes all of this rather moot. Or at least, not that much set in stone. The paddle allows me to steer the shot one way or the other (at least in terms of how fast it's flowing..), which is great to "save a shot", but I think I should try and pull a normal shot with the paddle still, and use that to gauge whether I've ground too coarse, too fine, just right. Then, only then, I should start messing about with pre-infusion.

At least this is what I'm thinking at the moment.


----------



## Baffo

The revelation of the day.

I have a specialty coffee place next to me that sells plenty of nice beans. It's a guy named Will who was on the forum as well (shop is called "it all started here", I can't remember his username here).

Yesterday I opened this bag that I got there: https://www.crankhousecoffee.co.uk/products/esperanza-mandela-natural

To me it sounds more on the light side. It's probably medium light? I don't know. But surely STRAWBERRY JAM, LYCHEE AND COCOA, do not sound like a dark Italian roast to me. I'd never had a lighter roast. Not a good one, at least.

The first attempt was HORRIBLE. I was horrified. I ground a bit too coarse, I brewed at only 1:2.5, little pre-infusion as the paddle was still not adjusted properly. Battery acid.

Today I tried again. I know you're not supposed to change many things at once, but I wanted to extract the a***le for good. I ground a bit finer, managed a good 10 second preinfusion, and brewed at 1:3.

My taste buds went nuts. It's like I was drinking something moderately boozy. I can't say I picked up the notes, but it was definitely more boozy than acidic, it was something I've never tried before. It was fascinating. For the first time, I was like "Feck. Ok. So the science is real".

I can't say that I prefer this kind of roasts yet, but they are definitely intriguing. I need to see what happens when I extract a darker, chocolatey roast well...


----------



## HVL87

Baffo said:


> Thanks Jon. I have to say, getting the pre-infusion right is still 50/50. Keeping the pressure steady at 2 bar especially.. Maybe I'm still grinding too coarse, but pressure goes all around, either drops too low, or too high, you get distracted one second and you're at 4 bar and coffee is pouring out like mad and you're like "oh feck pre-infusion, I'll wing it!". I don't know if I should just stop the flow when I get to 2 bar and let it drop, or try and keep it steady?
> 
> I think more or less it's a potayto potato (or cortaydo cortado?). Yours sounds like a lever shot kinda? To be honest I'm not that good at paddling yet that I can have a plan and stick to it.
> 
> Well, yes. Now, for reasons that I shall not explain, I have four (4) different bags at home. Miscalculations.. All of these are different roasts. Me being a baby, I am sort of wanting to try all of them.
> 
> Now, I think the paddle is super fun but it's going to be challenging at first. Normal people will have experience by the time they touch a Bianca. They have their grinder, they read the flavour notes, and they're like "right, this sounds like a medium roast, I know that a good starting point would be to grind at around X setting on the grinder."
> 
> The paddle makes all of this rather moot. Or at least, not that much set in stone. The paddle allows me to steer the shot one way or the other (at least in terms of how fast it's flowing..), which is great to "save a shot", but I think I should try and pull a normal shot with the paddle still, and use that to gauge whether I've ground too coarse, too fine, just right. Then, only then, I should start messing about with pre-infusion.
> 
> At least this is what I'm thinking at the moment.


 Yep that's exactly how I would start. Essentially pretend like the paddle is not there and dial in the shot using grind size to get in the right ball park. Otherwise too many variables to begin with!

Are you using a hand grinder at the moment?


----------



## Mrboots2u

Baffo said:


> The revelation of the day.
> 
> I have a specialty coffee place next to me that sells plenty of nice beans. It's a guy named Will who was on the forum as well (shop is called "it all started here", I can't remember his username here).
> 
> Yesterday I opened this bag that I got there: https://www.crankhousecoffee.co.uk/products/esperanza-mandela-natural
> 
> To me it sounds more on the light side. It's probably medium light? I don't know. But surely STRAWBERRY JAM, LYCHEE AND COCOA, do not sound like a dark Italian roast to me. I'd never had a lighter roast. Not a good one, at least.
> 
> The first attempt was HORRIBLE. I was horrified. I ground a bit too coarse, I brewed at only 1:2.5, little pre-infusion as the paddle was still not adjusted properly. Battery acid.
> 
> Today I tried again. I know you're not supposed to change many things at once, but I wanted to extract the a***le for good. I ground a bit finer, managed a good 10 second preinfusion, and brewed at 1:3.
> 
> My taste buds went nuts. It's like I was drinking something moderately boozy. I can't say I picked up the notes, but it was definitely more boozy than acidic, it was something I've never tried before. It was fascinating. For the first time, I was like "Feck. Ok. So the science is real".
> 
> I can't say that I prefer this kind of roasts yet, but they are definitely intriguing. I need to see what happens when I extract a darker, chocolatey roast well...


 @jeesby is his name , great cafe and a good guy all round


----------



## Baffo

Mrboots2u said:


> @jeesby is his name , great cafe and a good guy all round


 not had a chance to meet him just yet (lockdown and all), I might have spoken with him on their IG (unless it was somebody else) and he was very nice and helpful in helping me pick the beans.

once it's possible to actually get inside the shop I will totally want to have a chat with him. @jeebsy you've been warned!


----------



## Baffo

HVL87 said:


> Yep that's exactly how I would start. Essentially pretend like the paddle is not there and dial in the shot using grind size to get in the right ball park. Otherwise too many variables to begin with!
> 
> Are you using a hand grinder at the moment?


 Yes, a painful hand grinder.. Now I'm going to spend the next month mulling between Niche and Solo ha ha!


----------



## Baffo

Lesson number Two.

Lelit gives you a handy bottomless PF. Do check what basket they fit on it.

I now realised I've been dosing 18g in a 20g basket, and had completely ignored the 18g basket..

Whether that could have explained the odd channeling I've experienced (or it is just my poor puck prep, despite WDT, levelling and seemingly level tamping), this shall be determined in the next couple shots.


----------



## Baffo

Question.. Pump pressure. From the factory, 10.5 bar. Yes it's a profiler. But if you're anyway not supposed to go much beyond 9, if at all, then what's the point of being able to go above 9.5?is there a potential benefit? I only see potential harm as sometimes, you grind too fine and you smack the puck with 10.5, which surely isn't the best thing ever..

Since it is seemingly so easy to change, any reason not to?


----------



## jonr2

Baffo said:


> Question.. Pump pressure. From the factory, 10.5 bar. Yes it's a profiler. But if you're anyway not supposed to go much beyond 9, if at all, then what's the point of being able to go above 9.5?is there a potential benefit? I only see potential harm as sometimes, you grind too fine and you smack the puck with 10.5, which surely isn't the best thing ever..
> 
> Since it is seemingly so easy to change, any reason not to?


 i had just been thinking the same question - that said i was a bit nervous about trying to change it.

plus side is i added felt pads to the bottom of the machine today - game changer!


----------



## Mrboots2u

Easy to too tbh ( change pressure )


----------



## Luca06

@Baffointeresting question. I have thought exactly the same. Going through probably the entire YouTube content of Bianca's, I did remember one that says to put the flow paddle at about 3/4 to "act as a regular E61". I always have the paddle fully open and it's fine. Do you have the paddle at 3/4 position and if not, this might be worth a try to see if one could reach 9 bar this way, instead of 10 ish directly from the pump. I'll try this week to see if I notice a difference....


----------



## Baffo

@jonr2 in what way are felt pads a game changer? For moving it around?

@Luca06 i mean whoever said "put the paddle at 3/4 and it acts like a normal E61 was simplifying things too much IMO. The pump still pumps at 10.5 which is higher than what a conventional E61 would be set at. So yeah, perhaps if you happen to have ground your coffee just in the right sweet spot so that 3/4 paddle gives you the flow that equates to 9-ish bars, then all good. Otherwise, not quite.

I don't know, I just see it as a thing that does not bring any benefit to have the pump maxed at 10.5..

Edit: changed it. 9.5. It's a bit tricky due to the location but the job itself is very easy. Unsure if it did this as well before, but it seems to hover around 9 bar first (pump gauge) and then go to 9.5ish


----------



## jonr2

> 13 hours ago, Baffo said:
> 
> @jonr2 in what way are felt pads a game changer? For moving it around?
> 
> @Luca06 i mean whoever said "put the paddle at 3/4 and it acts like a normal E61 was simplifying things too much IMO. The pump still pumps at 10.5 which is higher than what a conventional E61 would be set at. So yeah, perhaps if you happen to have ground your coffee just in the right sweet spot so that 3/4 paddle gives you the flow that equates to 9-ish bars, then all good. Otherwise, not quite.
> 
> I don't know, I just see it as a thing that does not bring any benefit to have the pump maxed at 10.5..
> 
> Edit: changed it. 9.5. It's a bit tricky due to the location but the job itself is very easy. Unsure if it did this as well before, but it seems to hover around 9 bar first (pump gauge) and then go to 9.5ish


 yes for moving around - makes a huge difference

i guess i am going to have to give the pump pressure change a go - one for the weekend


----------



## Buster

I haven't moved the paddle once yet, and enjoying excellent espresso from the machine as set up by BB. Only change has been to drop temp to 92 which has made the taste much 'smoother'.


----------



## Baffo

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/58802-crowd-sourcing-advice-upgrade-espresso-game/?do=embed&comment=830129&embedComment=830129&embedDo=findComment

Sharing this as I'd be curious to see if anybody with a Bianca has tried or will try this approach for lighter roasts and report their findings.


----------



## benoit3000

Hi, after weeks of deciding on my new machine, pleased to say I'm the proud new owner of a Bianca 😃 Had a couple of initial questions for other users straight out of the gate:

1) what steam temp/pressure setting people use - I understand the revised Bianca PID lets you go up to 135C which gives 2.5-3 bar... I note the default is 125C and this gives me c.1.5 bar. Is there any downside to going for the max setting? (Boiler longevity perhaps?).

2) This probably more of a standard E61 / dual boiler question than specific to Bianca - but do people regular drain their steam boilers? I flushed mine through a few times on first use per Dave D's guidance in the manual - but in regular use is this something that benefits the boiler if it's done semi-regularly?

thanks,

chris


----------



## jonr2

benoit3000 said:


> Hi, after weeks of deciding on my new machine, pleased to say I'm the proud new owner of a Bianca 😃 Had a couple of initial questions for other users straight out of the gate:
> 
> 1) what steam temp/pressure setting people use - I understand the revised Bianca PID lets you go up to 135C which gives 2.5-3 bar... I note the default is 125C and this gives me c.1.5 bar. Is there any downside to going for the max setting? (Boiler longevity perhaps?).
> 
> 2) This probably more of a standard E61 / dual boiler question than specific to Bianca - but do people regular drain their steam boilers? I flushed mine through a few times on first use per Dave D's guidance in the manual - but in regular use is this something that benefits the boiler if it's done semi-regularly?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> chris


 hey

i have set the brew boiler to 92 but left the steam boiler at 125 - i dont have any good reason for this but it seems to work fine for me. i think the higher you set steam the less flexibility you will have cos it will steam quicker - but if you are confident in your steaming / texturing skills you may prefer the faster steaming time

i havent any plans to drain the boiler - i do run through at least half a cup of water each day though to heat the cup i am using - figure that that will be enough to keep the water inside it fresh

Hope this helps

Jon


----------



## 7877

Only had mine a couple of weeks, came from BB

i found the default 125C for steam boiler was not getting up to 1.5 bar on mine, it was just a bit over 1.3, only had to tweak up to 128 to get the 1.5 bar, which I think for me is sufficient. If I was steaming more in one go I'd be tempted to gradually increase it a little further.

I've also tweaked the pump pressure which seemed to be about 10.5 bar to start on the pump (maybe slightly more) but I was getting up to 12 at the group with the paddle flow fully open when pulling a shot. So I've bought it back to 9 at pump, then gradually very small increments pushed it back up a little until I get a little more control at the group via paddle. I find that there isn't a equal linear control of flow and catching it at 4 or less for pre infusion is tricky, need practice, but you do get used to it.

unless you are grinding very very fine I'm not sure how you would never touch the paddle. but that I suppose is the joy of this machine there are so many options in pulling a shot available.

as for brew temp, you may find a small change impacts differently with different beans. I've been running at 94 and that 1 degree (from default) really helped with the ranchero mahogany roast from Rave I felt. I'm now with a lighter roast again, a little too light for my taste but I feel like perhaps that needs a bit of tweaking again for it. If switching beans a lot I guess it helps to keep a diary


----------



## benoit3000

Thanks @jonr2 and @Sibling Chris - good to hear other users' experience. I'm also on 128C for the service boiler now and getting 1.5-1.6bar steam pressure. Also switched to the 4-hole wand that came with the machine but might go back to the 2-hole as was finding better results with this - though not sure what the difference is?


----------



## benoit3000

Also... two more Qs I had nearing 1 month of ownership:

1) Has anyone switched the rear plug adapter to get the machine closer to the wall? I see it sticks out a good 8-10 cm. Bit annoying as I have the tank on the side of the machine to try and maximise my counter space but not bought myself much room due to plug. Wondering if there's a smaller plug or one which turns 90 degrees as soon as it exits the machine? If one does exist is there a standard fitting/spec that I need? (Sorry, I'm not that electronically minded).

2) Presume the slots in the machine's top case panel (below the cup warming rack) are there to let the machine vent heat? But wondering if they let dust accumulate inside the machine internals over time and this is something to watch for or not?

thanks,

chris


----------



## Waitforme

@benoit3000, I bought one of these .....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002DWA8IW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## 7877

Waitforme said:


> @benoit3000, I bought one of these .....
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002DWA8IW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


 If only you could get one with a smart plug feature built in 🙂


----------



## benoit3000

Waitforme said:


> @benoit3000, I bought one of these .....
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002DWA8IW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


 Nice! That looks like it'll buy me back a good 5-6cm of counter space! Thank you for the link


----------



## benoit3000

Sibling Chris said:


> If only you could get one with a smart plug feature built in 🙂


 Yeah a combined solution would be neat.

I've purchased a TP link plug which has been a bit of a game changer! Machine comes on 30 mins before I'm out of bed! (or turn it on before getting home so it's up to required temp when I come through the door).


----------



## 7877

I've actually been a bit reticent with the smart plug thing. Concerned a little in terms of security and not knowing where in the cloud my settings and details are going. I'm generally not a Luddite but I am a bit risk averse I would say. So I ordered a digital timer instead, overall much bigger but slimmer than the vast majority of smart plugs so for me that helps. Will see how,I get on with it, can always return via Amazon easily enough if it doesn't pan out 🙂


----------



## thusband

I bought a smart plug but couldn't get it to recognize my network. Just as well as it would have been overkill. I ended up buying this one and it's been perfect for a year and half.


----------



## spasypaddy

Sibling Chris said:


> I've actually been a bit reticent with the smart plug thing. Concerned a little in terms of security and not knowing where in the cloud my settings and details are going. I'm generally not a Luddite but I am a bit risk averse I would say. So I ordered a digital timer instead, overall much bigger but slimmer than the vast majority of smart plugs so for me that helps. Will see how,I get on with it, can always return via Amazon easily enough if it doesn't pan out 🙂


 if youre worried about that get a big brand one like the tp-link


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Had a TP-link when I had the Profitec-700 and highly recommend it.


----------



## 7877

thusband said:


> I bought a smart plug but couldn't get it to recognize my network. Just as well as it would have been overkill. I ended up buying this one and it's been perfect for a year and half.


 Yeah I have one of those I use for Christmas lights, but it's really too chunky to have in the kitchen where space is at a premium. Not sure if the digital one I ordered will but much different but it's supposedly only 2.3cm deep. Ideally I'd like a smart socket rather than plug&#8230;.but there is nothing available that matches my relatively new kitchen and I'm loathe to stick a bright white one in and mess with the design. Hence my comment about a smart kettle lead if anyone made one being a good idea imho

have read that most smart plugs work on 2.4ghz wifi, so where you have a router that offers up both that and 5ghz there can be issues. But I think there are ways around it. Some report if you temporarily switch 5ghz off and allow the plug to connect , then afterwards when 5ghz is switched back on all is good. The other option is to separate them with individual network names (SSID)

sorry this is off topic from the bianca&#8230;.consider my wrists slapped 🙄


----------



## colb16

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Had a TP-link when I had the Profitec-700 and highly recommend it.


 Agreed. That's what I'm using now with my Bianca, app is user friendly and a lot better than some other brands I've used.


----------



## BruceB

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone has encountered the following issue?

I got the bianca a couple of days ago. Filled the tank, pulled a few shots and eventually had to refill (had to refill sooner than usual, but for the first time I'm assuming the service boiler took the lions share initially so not worried) . So duly refilled, went back to pulling a few more shots. Pulled another couple for breakfast yesterday and then another midday.

Came down this morning, turned it on bleary eyed and wondered off whilst it warmed up. Came back 30 mins later and noticed the machine was still cold. Checked the display and it's telling me it's low on water. Thought that was weird. Check the tank and it's still 2/3rds full. Tried reseating it, tried topping it up, turned it off on. Turned the service boiler on off. Nothing, can't get the refill warning to clear.

Can anyone shed any light on this? Slightly frustrated given its less than 48hrs old!

Edit: I should add I've had the service boiler turned off by default.

1 checked the float in the tank isn't stuck.

2 checked there's no air lock in the pipes of the tank

3 tried a reset on the LCC

Thanks


----------



## DavecUK

Check the connector, black cable with two jack plugs. Connects tank level sensor to machine. Ensure each end well connected.


----------



## BruceB

DavecUK said:


> Check the connector, black cable with two jack plugs. Connects tank level sensor to machine. Ensure each end well connected.


 Perfect! Sorted, I hadn't realised that was a double ended connector, the one underneath the machine was loose.

Credit to Bella Barista who I had just contacted once they opened this morning, they were going to arrange collection and replacement with no issue.

Thanks @DavecUK for saving a load of hassle!


----------



## BruceB

DavecUK said:


> Check the connector, black cable with two jack plugs. Connects tank level sensor to machine. Ensure each end well connected.


 Sorry @DavecUK I should have asked in the last post, if I did a reset of the LCC will that have removed the settings Bella Barista would have setup when they checked the machine? If so I think I can go find them on your write up of the machine and redo them in the advanced menu.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@BruceB - https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2018/07/17/lelit-bianca/

look up "Brew Temperature & PID settings" and "Lelit Control Centre (LLC)"

there's one setting you may want to turn on, which is to display the actual temperature rather than the pre-set target temperature. I think it's "TR" in the advanced menu.


----------



## DavecUK

BruceB said:


> Sorry @DavecUK I should have asked in the last post, if I did a reset of the LCC will that have removed the settings Bella Barista would have setup when they checked the machine? If so I think I can go find them on your write up of the machine and redo them in the advanced menu.


 You should be able to, there might even be a video of it on my site...just be careful as the software has been revised on Bianca *and there may be extra settings I don't cover. *

I do actually have new firmware for my LCC, but I have not got around to installing it yet. My Bianca is currently mothballed...it's a prototype and I need to bring it up to production spec with a replacement Gicar, (and firmware), slight rewire and a reflassh of my LCC to latest firmware, which I can of course do....Just time.


----------



## BruceB

To much time on this forum helping folk! Thanks @DavecUK


----------



## crazyp

Hi All,

I've just joined Club Bianca - what a lovely looking machine. It'll be a little while before my grinder arrives but of course I couldn't delay setting up the shiny shiny and just wanted to make sure the basics were working. I won't even have scales until later today....

I threw in the only pre-ground coffee I had in the house (designed for cafetières) just to check all the pumps and dials working. The group head pressure guage only moved a shade to 1 bar - I'm guessing because it's just too coarse a grind to provide any resistance?

Are there any forum favourites for espresso pre-ground until the Niche arrives?

Thanks all.


----------



## KingoftheHeath

crazyp said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I've just joined Club Bianca - what a lovely looking machine. It'll be a little while before my grinder arrives but of course I couldn't delay setting up the shiny shiny and just wanted to make sure the basics were working. I won't even have scales until later today....
> I threw in the only pre-ground coffee I had in the house (designed for cafetières) just to check all the pumps and dials working. The group head pressure guage only moved a shade to 1 bar - I'm guessing because it's just too coarse a grind to provide any resistance?
> Are there any forum favourites for espresso pre-ground until the Niche arrives?
> 
> Thanks all.


I'm not sure any pre-ground coffee will get you a decent espresso


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

crazyp said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I've just joined Club Bianca - what a lovely looking machine. It'll be a little while before my grinder arrives but of course I couldn't delay setting up the shiny shiny and just wanted to make sure the basics were working. I won't even have scales until later today....
> 
> I threw in the only pre-ground coffee I had in the house (designed for cafetières) just to check all the pumps and dials working. The group head pressure guage only moved a shade to 1 bar - I'm guessing because it's just too coarse a grind to provide any resistance?
> 
> Are there any forum favourites for espresso pre-ground until the Niche arrives?
> 
> Thanks all.


 It won't work. Most pre-ground coffee are stale, and will be more permeable and offer no resistance. You can try some "espresso ground" from a Roastery - try Rave - but I never seen it working.

Ps: nice machine.


----------



## Alpesh

Welcome to the club, I'm sure you won't be disappointed with the Bianca. I tried pre-ground once but resulted in the shot pulling too fast and tasting very sour. This was shop bought mind so pre-ground from a good roaster may give better results.


----------



## Alex_L

Question for owners - VST basket size compatibility. I'm enjoying the bottomless portafilter with a 18g VST basket but fancy trying a larger one for some milk based drinks - does the 22g VST fit the lelit bottomless portafilter? I notice it has a lip and wanted to check if anyone had issues with the 22g basket before I order.


----------



## Dallah

I have a Lelit original bottomless portafilter for my MaraX which has a lip. The 22 VST basket fits it fine. I assume the one that came with the Bianca is the same metal work but just a different handle. Of course YMMV.


----------



## Alex_L

Dallah said:


> I have a Lelit original bottomless portafilter for my MaraX which has a lip. The 22 VST basket fits it fine. I assume the one that came with the Bianca is the same metal work but just a different handle. Of course YMMV.


 Thanks. Would be odd if they were radically different. My attempt at measuring suggests it should just fit. Think I'll chance it and see what happens.


----------



## RandyC

Hi All,

I just picked up a Lelit Bianca and attempted setup this afternoon but ran into a problem that won't let me use the machine and I was hoping someone here might have encountered it before or might know how to get around it.

*Issue description (TL/DR*) On initial setup, I'm stuck between the machine asking for more water, filling it with tap water, then the machine emptying the tank into the drip tray via the OPV until the machine asks for more water again.

*Issue description*

During initial setup, I installed the water softener filter and filled the water tank with half RO and tap water as my water is quite hard here in Canada. I went through the initial step for the first time use by opening up the grouphead for 30 seconds then closing it. After the tank was drained to fill the boilers, the LCC shows the temperature at 11C. [This like likely the TIFU part] At this point I looked at the tank and saw it was empty so I removed the water tank and added water, and put the tank back in. The LCC is still displaying to the heating icon showing it's going up to 15C but at the same time it started purging the water tank into the drip tray via the OPV. Before it started overflowing the drip tray, I had to shut it down. Now every time I turn it back on it drains the water tank until it is empty and the LCC changes back to the missing water icon. It's now in a state where it will repeat missing water > add water > drains water into drip tray until empty > missing water.

I've tried:



Factory resetting (+ sign with power button while the machine is off) then redoing the steps but the water starts flushing from the tank through the OPV as soon as the 30 second groupheads open is completed.


Using only tap water as well in the tank


I've also reached out to Lelit as well as the company I bought the machine from to create support tickets but don't expect anything on the weekend.


Any help or insight would be extremely helpful as I was super excited to get going on the Bianca after upgrading from 4 years on the BBE.

Thanks!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@RandyC - are you sure it's the OPV (expansion valve)? Could it be it's filling the service boiler, that's not detecting its full and just chucking water out via the vacuum breaker?

Could you please try this:

- put the machine in ECO mode (I.e.: service boiler off)
- attempt to start up your machine.

If it works, it might be you have a faulty fill lever sensor, or it's disconnected on the Gicar box (maybe happened in transit) - in which case you'll need to contact the reseller or try to check out yourself, but you'll need to open the machine up.

edit: welcome aboard to CFUK.


----------



## RandyC

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @RandyC - are you sure it's the OPV (expansion valve)? Could it be it's filling the service boiler, that's not detecting its full and just chucking water out via the vacuum breaker?
> 
> Could you please try this:
> 
> - put the machine in ECO mode (I.e.: service boiler off)
> - attempt to start up your machine.
> 
> If it works, it might be you have a faulty fill lever sensor, or it's disconnected on the Gicar box (maybe happened in transit) - in which case you'll need to contact the reseller or try to check out yourself, but you'll need to open the machine up.
> 
> edit: welcome aboard to CFUK.


 Thanks for the warm welcome and the things to try, appreciated!

So I believe I've set it into Eco mode (service boiler off, still learning the terminology on the fly here):










After I turned the machine back on it still complained about needed water so I added ~300ml of water. What I believe is the OPV started draining water immediately, I captured it below for confirmation. I noticed the steam pressure is sitting quite high here as well:


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@RandyC - thanks for the pics. So...

machine on in ECO mode, tank full. Turn machine on and let it warm up. What happened? The reason I'm asking is that, if the machine is in ECO mode, there should be no pressure in the service boiler. Is the second picture showing the pressure high with the machine in ECO mode? If so, that's strange. Please confirm.

If the machine is not in eco mode and the pressure is high... then it might be the safety valve triggering. The water in the drip tray... is it really hot and is steam coming out of the outlet? Regardless, the pressure should not be that high, ever, on your machine. Something is not right. Maybe a sensor got disconnected in transit, or a faulty sensor, or it could be misconfiguration (e.g.: steam offset too high), although you said you've reset the machine so that could be ruled out.

if you can't resolve this yourself, you might want to reach out to your retailer as maybe they can help you.


----------



## Teejay

Has anyone changed from v1 to v2 of the LCC. Any issues/advantages ? Considering using one of the energy efficient modes and the 60 sec shot completion appeals.

Feels like a waste not being able to get LCC reflashed.


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## Mrboots2u

Teejay said:


> Has anyone changed from v1 to v2 of the LCC. Any issues/advantages ? Considering using one of the energy efficient modes and the 60 sec shot completion appeals.
> 
> Feels like a waste not being able to get LCC reflashed.


 The only actuaul adavantge id see is the timer saying on longer after shot completion .

V1 has energy savign modes.

Not sure what the 60 sec shot competition is or would be advantageous for ?


----------



## RandyC

> machine on in ECO mode, tank full. Turn machine on and let it warm up. What happened? The reason I'm asking is that, if the machine is in ECO mode, there should be no pressure in the service boiler. Is the second picture showing the pressure high with the machine in ECO mode? If so, that's strange. Please confirm.




With the device in eco mode and water in the tank/reservoir, if I turn the machine on now, I get what's happening in my second picture from above where water is being drained immediately and the LCC changes to a temperature reading with the steam pressure reading high.


So yes, to confirm the second picture is indeed with Eco mode enabled.




MediumRoastSteam said:


> The water in the drip tray... is it really hot and is steam coming out of the outlet?




The water is cool and I assume it's the water coming straight from the tank. Though I don't know if the boilers are full at this point and the water is coming from there instead.


Should I purge the boilers to get them empty (is there a way to do this safely?) and redo the factory reset again to get the machine as close as it was to when it was shipped?


Yup, I've already sent a ticket off to the company I purchased it from and also reached out to Lelit. Hopefully hear back during the week. Thanks for the help so far though.


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## MediumRoastSteam

@RandyC - @DavecUK should be able to help much more than me. The bit that baffles me is that the machine is in ECO mode, the steam boiler is off... yet the pressure gauge is saying it's under pressure. Bizarre. I haven't got a clue. Maybe Dave will know... regardless, let us know how you get on. 👍 - very annoying.


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## DavecUK

@RandyC From what I have read and what you have said, it looks like the pump is filling the service (steam) boiler and this is overflowing into the drip tray. The high pressure you see is not because of temperature, but the pressure being created in the service boiler by the pump. Overflows from the vacuum breaker and safety valve lead to the drip try via plastic tubes, or did in my model.

The safety valve opens at around 2.8 bar+, depending on what version they have fitted...it will be written on the side. The vacuum breaker is closed by positive pressure....so in a full boiler, the vacuum breaker might get pushed closed by pressure, but the safety valve will certainly release water (even if the boiler is cold).

To do this, the machine thinks the service boiler is empty, causes are:



Faulty autofill box (unlikely on a new machine)


*bad connection on level probe, or level probe wire disconnected*


Solenoid in the service boiler fill position or installed the wrong way round at the factory. This is also very unlikely as the solenoid is a NC to service boiler, and only opens when it receives voltage. Installed the wrong way round is a possibility and there will be an arrow on the body (again unlikely).


Open the top of the machine and have a look, take a photo...upload it to the forum if you can, although you may not have enough posts yet, if not, link it. This allows members to identify things for you, and we may even spot the fault.

Welcome to the forum.....


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## MediumRoastSteam

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Could it be it's filling the service boiler, that's not detecting its full and just chucking water out via the vacuum breaker?





MediumRoastSteam said:


> it might be you have a faulty fill lever sensor, or it's disconnected on the Gicar box (maybe happened in transit)





DavecUK said:


> so in a full boiler, the vacuum breaker might get pushed closed by pressure, but the safety valve will certainly release water (even if the boiler is cold).





DavecUK said:


> bad connection on level probe, or level probe wire disconnected


 I'm glad I at least was, somehow, partially on the right track. 😂😂😂😂😂😂👍


----------



## RandyC

DavecUK said:


> Open the top of the machine and have a look, take a photo...upload it to the forum if you can, although you may not have enough posts yet, if not, link it. This allows members to identify things for you, and we may even spot the fault.


 Thanks for the response @DavecUK. I'll open it up and take a photo soon.

I did get a response back from Lelit, followed up by asking me to check with my direct reseller (which I have). It's probably still worth opening up and trying though.



> For what we see it could be a water level probe issue but this needs to be checked by a technician.


----------



## RandyC

DavecUK said:


> Open the top of the machine and have a look, take a photo...upload it to the forum if you can, although you may not have enough posts yet, if not, link it.


 I've uploaded some internal pictures to the following album. Wasn't entirely sure what to focus on so I took a few; thanks:



http://imgur.com/Vp0Muq2


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## DavecUK

get me a good shot of this, the tube obscures what I want to check


----------



## RandyC

DavecUK said:


> get me a good shot of this, the tube obscures what I want to check
> 
> 
> View attachment 56569


 Should have looked closer myself from the side, it's unplugged! Is that the water level probe?


----------



## DavecUK

And you will be good to go


----------



## RandyC

DavecUK said:


> View attachment 56577
> 
> 
> And you will be good to go


 Yup that worked! Plugged it in, re-assembled it and powered it on. It's now working and heating up. I should probably disable Eco mode now to test the service boiler. Thank you, @DavecUK and @MediumRoastSteam for your help these past couple of days!!



http://imgur.com/nHlSrpb


----------



## DavecUK




----------



## MediumRoastSteam

See... I was right! 🤣😂👍 - Great news @RandyC ! Hope you are now good to go and have made the best espresso of your life! 🙂


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## jonr2

awesome to see the level of assistance on the forum 🙂


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## Alex_L

Alex_L said:


> Thanks. Would be odd if they were radically different. My attempt at measuring suggests it should just fit. Think I'll chance it and see what happens.


 VST ridgeless 22 arrived and fits the standard bianca bottomless fine.


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## Waitforme

Alex_L said:


> VST ridgeless 22 arrived and fits the standard bianca bottomless fine.


 I'd be interested to know what difference you notice using a 22 VST rather than the 22 Lelit one 🤔


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## robimitchell

Hello all, I joined the Bianca club today after lots of reading and I thoroughly love it!

Looks were almost bottom of my priority list, but in the flesh, it is a stunning piece of kit.

I have a couple of questions that I'm hoping you can help with though:

I will be making two+ americanos every day. I get that many argue that you can (should?) use a kettle for the hot water element and this mainly seems to be from the perspective that you can cause scale-related issues if you over use the service boiler. I'm in a very soft water area (my hardness as mg/l CaCO3 according to Scottish Water is just under 17) so I reckon that puts me in a good place; will using the service boiler daily for americanos really cause me any long term issues?

Related to this, I flushed the service boiler from new four times as per @DavecUK 's guide supplied by Bella Barista, and whilst it took me a few shots to get a drinkable espresso, the first americano using service boiler water was minging. If I continue to flush a few more times, and then regularly use the service boiler water, will the taste improve, or is it always going to taste 'off'?

I'm not looking to create issues or over-complicate things, but for my set-up and workflow, it would be easier if the Bianca could provide this dependably.

Lastly, given the softness of my water, do I need to use any kind of filtering at all with the machine, or can I use it straight from the tap?


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## DavecUK

Best not to use service boiler water for Americanos. If used very very regularly it will clean up and taste OK, but a kettle is far better. The disadvantage is you always have to have it on.

It's not just softness but cleanliness of water and does depend how soft your water is? Yours sounds very soft, so shouldn't scale.


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## robimitchell

DavecUK said:


> Best not to use service boiler water for Americanos. If used very very regularly it will clean up and taste OK, but a kettle is far better. The disadvantage is you always have to have it on.
> 
> It's not just softness but cleanliness of water and does depend how soft your water is?


 Thanks Dave. I'd only factored the hardness quoted by the water company and figured it was low enough not to worry. I hadn't considered other qualities; I guess I should fire the filter into the tank after all!


----------



## DavecUK

robimitchell said:


> Thanks Dave. I'd only factored the hardness quoted by the water company and figured it was low enough not to worry. I hadn't considered other qualities; I guess I should fire the filter into the tank after all!


 I think that filter is just resin based hardness reduction. I wouldn't bother.


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## jonnycooper29

Hi All,

Having blown my initial budget on the lelit elizabeth (currently renovating my house so cant spare money on luxuries like this), then finding out from BB that it will be delayed even further, i have now got a Bianca sitting on my work top.. What a beauty it is, i think it will be a real feature of my new kitchen that im currently installing!

I have pulled two shots so far and although they have been drinkable, they ran fast. I tightened the grind on the second shot which improved it, but i find im grinding a lot finer than on my last machine, the sage bambino (previously around 18/19 on the niche, now at <10). I tried a straight forward profile of full flow until the pressure starts to build, then drop to around 2 bar, hold for 7/8 seconds then increase to full flow, cutting the shot once at the desired weight. The second shot was 18:45g in 24 seconds and both shots were sour, but as i said, drinkable.

I need to grind finer i think, but just wondering is it normal to grind much finer for the bianca than other machines such as the bambino? Only thing i can think of is the puck is much thinner than on the sage, so less resistance required to go all the way through?


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## Mrboots2u

I wouldn't worry about it @jonnycooper29

Things that change the grind setting , between machines

Age and roast level of coffee

The basket used 54 or 58 mm

THe type of basket used, some will have more holes than others

the amount of coffee used

the way the coffee is prepped in the basket ( distribution and level tamp )

How well the tamper fits.

THe pressure hitting the puck , the flow of Water hitting the puck

the temp of the water being delivered ( lower temp will extract slower )

When you look at all these variables , its not worth thinking about grind settings between machines , just focus on getting it right for your current one.


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## colb16

Congrats @jonnycooper29, you will not be disappointed. Got the Bianca a few months ago and I also came from a Sage, took me quite a while to dial it in so you are correct in thinking there is a big difference between the machines. There were times where I thought I ground way too fine and ended up with some 60+ second shots, but they actually tasted great.


----------



## Roko

jonnycooper29 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Having blown my initial budget on the lelit elizabeth (currently renovating my house so cant spare money on luxuries like this), then finding out from BB that it will be delayed even further, i have now got a Bianca sitting on my work top.. What a beauty it is, i think it will be a real feature of my new kitchen that im currently installing!
> 
> I have pulled two shots so far and although they have been drinkable, they ran fast. I tightened the grind on the second shot which improved it, but i find im grinding a lot finer than on my last machine, the sage bambino (previously around 18/19 on the niche, now at <10). I tried a straight forward profile of full flow until the pressure starts to build, then drop to around 2 bar, hold for 7/8 seconds then increase to full flow, cutting the shot once at the desired weight. The second shot was 18:45g in 24 seconds and both shots were sour, but as i said, drinkable.
> 
> I need to grind finer i think, but just wondering is it normal to grind much finer for the bianca than other machines such as the bambino? Only thing i can think of is the puck is much thinner than on the sage, so less resistance required to go all the way through?


 It's not necessarily a thing with the Bianca that you have to grind finer, I would imagine that it would mostly depend on the fact that you were probably using a pressurised basket on the Bambino?

If you said that you hold the pressure at 2 bar for 7-8 seconds and your total shot time is 24 seconds then you are definitely not grinding fine enough. It would take probably around 7 seconds for any meaningful pressure to build up, if you then add 7 more seconds of bloom, we're at 14 seconds, so you're then basically having all of your coffee flowing within 10 seconds.. Sounds way too fast.

Other than that, I wouldn't bloom for that long unless you're drinking very light stuff. And, I wouldn't go full paddle, if you leave it somewhere around half way, you will get a natural pressure decline towards the end of the shot, sort of a lever profile, which can be beneficial to flavour.


----------



## Johey

Hi coffee lovers and Bianca owners,

I bought my Bianca 1,5 years ago. Quite happy with the machine, although the harsh pump noise during the first 1-2s is kind of annoying - especially when Lelit told me I need to replace the complete water tank. So I decided to live with that noise (btw: my assumption is it's caused by air sucked in somewhere in the tank connections).

But now I got a real problem: every morning the machine is turned on automatically by a Wifi plug. When I came down to the machine (~45min after switching on), the display was off. The group head was quite hot and the pressure gauge showed 0 bar. Also when I opened the steam valve nothing came out. When I switched the lever nothing happened.
The LED form the powert button was on.

So I switched everything off, waited for another hour and turned on again. Same picture: power button LED on, but display off and the machine didn't heat up at all.

Do you have any ideas what the problem could be?

My special problem: I bought the machine 1.5 years ago from BB, so still would have warranty (2 years) but beginning of this year I moved back to Germany so I don't see a chance to bring the machine to BB.

I guess I need to figure out on my own...


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## DavecUK

@Johey The first thing to do is contact BB and get advice, this way, if you need parts, you will be able to get them free. If you start messing about yourself, then they would be within their rights to refuse to help.


----------



## Johey

DavecUK said:


> @Johey The first thing to do is contact BB and get advice, this way, if you need parts, you will be able to get them free. If you start messing about yourself, then they would be within their rights to refuse to help.


 @DavecUK: I will reach out to BB and ask for their advice. Hopefully, we can sort it remotely. But my first guess is that the electronics (LCC) is broken (either the electronics itself or maybe just a wiring issue).


----------



## DavecUK

Johey said:


> @DavecUK: I will reach out to BB and ask for their advice. Hopefully, we can sort it remotely. But my first guess is that the electronics (LCC) is broken (either the electronics itself or maybe just a wiring issue).


 The LCCs are actually really, reliable, so I would be amazed if it has broken, could be a wiring issue (loose wire). Might be Gicar Box.


----------



## Johey

All,

just to give you an update on the topic. I had a call with someone from BB. His first guess was the "over temperature switch" (cannot remember the correct wording) which is on top of the brew boiler (actually there are two of those switches). So I took off the lid and both switches were disengaged. After reengaging them (pressing the small plunger) everything worked.

He told also told me that the reason for overheating could be either calcification or air sucked in the boiler.
So I had a closer look at the machine and saw that the 3-way connector (the blue one) was partially broken. Not enough to have a big leakage but some water went out there. And maybe some air was sucked in to the boiler through that leakage...

I am happy that the issue si fixed now but I will have to replace the blue 3-way connectors. There are some 4-way metal connectors available as a retrofit kit. Just asked Lelit if they could send me that kit as kind of a warranty issue. Let's see...

I can only strongly recommend all Bianca owners to change these blue connectors immediately.


----------



## Waitforme

@Johey, thanks for the update on your issue.

Would it be possible for you to post some photos identifying the connectors that should be changed / checked ?

Thanks.


----------



## Johey

Waitforme said:


> @Johey, thanks for the update on your issue.
> 
> Would it be possible for you to post some photos identifying the connectors that should be changed / checked ?
> 
> Thanks.


 Hi, I've attached a picture which shows the blue connector. You can only see that one, the other one is not on the pictue but if you open the machine you will easily find the second one.

But even better, here is a YouTube Video from Lelit which explains the replacement with the "metal" retrofit kit:


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Waitforme said:


> @Johey, thanks for the update on your issue.
> 
> Would it be possible for you to post some photos identifying the connectors that should be changed / checked ?
> 
> Thanks.


 You can't miss it. 😊 - if you open the machine and follow the hoses from the top of the boiler and OPV, they end up in a Y, blue connector. Those are then linked and returned to the drip tray.

you can replace them with brass versions - you can buy them very cheaply from eBay or plumber stores. Or you can by an X version so you only need one.

but - How old is your machine? On newer versions, Lelit has replaced those with brass versions anyway.


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## Waitforme

Thanks @Johey & @MediumRoastSteam

My machine was purchased from BB at the end of February this year.

Next time I pull it out to fill with water I'll take the top off and have a look to see what connectors I have.


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## Waitforme

4 way brass connector is fitted to my machine.
job's a goodun

Cheers guys 👍


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## DavecUK

@Waitforme Much less risky than sending it back for rectification....and quicker too. I thought we had seen the last of plastic connectors a decade ago when Quick Mill used to use them.


----------



## thusband

Guess I better check mine since I bought it in January.....of last year.


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## smorgo

Oh, my.

I've had my Bianca for 24 hours and the last shot I pulled was the best I've ever produced. Quite possibly, one of the best I've ever had. What's more, I know what I did, so I should be able to do it again.

That may say more about the kind of stuff I've been drinking in the past, but I am VERY excited about this machine.

Got to say thanks for Claudette at BB and @DavecUK for the excellent buying advice.


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## DavecUK

@smorgo They are a very nice machine indeed....end game for most.


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## Alex_L

Milk steaming on the Bianca.

I recently watched James Hoffman's £1500 machine video and was fascinated by milk steaming times he recorded I.e. 10 seconds for the rocket and 19 for the Mara to get 200g milk to 60 degrees and all the machines under 20s. Watching it made me think it takes me longer on the Bianca to do about the same and I guess I expected it to be comparable or better to these machines.

So, I got the scales and stop watch out and found getting 200g milk from ~5 degrees to 60-65 takes around 45 seconds - this is in a 350ml jug. This is with the two hole tip and with steam temp set to 130 degrees so just under 2 bar of pressure. To get down near 20-25 seconds I need to up the temp to 135 and use the four hole tip.

I'm aware this is a very rough comparison but it makes me think something isn't quite right (probably my technique) or I'm missing something as I'd assumed the four hole tip and temps like 135 were for larger volumes/jugs.

What are other owners experience of milk steaming times on the Bianca?


----------



## Mrboots2u

Alex_L said:


> Milk steaming on the Bianca.
> 
> I recently watched James Hoffman's £1500 machine video and was fascinated by milk steaming times he recorded I.e. 10 seconds for the rocket and 19 for the Mara to get 200g milk to 60 degrees and all the machines under 20s. Watching it made me think it takes me longer on the Bianca to do about the same and I guess I expected it to be comparable or better to these machines.
> 
> So, I got the scales and stop watch out and found getting 200g milk from ~5 degrees to 60-65 takes around 45 seconds - this is in a 350ml jug. This is with the two hole tip and with steam temp set to 130 degrees so just under 2 bar of pressure. To get down near 20-25 seconds I need to up the temp to 135 and use the four hole tip.
> 
> I'm aware this is a very rough comparison but it makes me think something isn't quite right (probably my technique) or I'm missing something as I'd assumed the four hole tip and temps like 135 were for larger volumes/jugs.
> 
> What are other owners experience of milk steaming times on the Bianca?


 I use the 4 tip on small amounts of milk doesn't take 40 seconds


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## MediumRoastSteam

Alex_L said:


> So, I got the scales and stop watch out and found getting 200g milk from ~5 degrees to 60-65 takes around 45 seconds - this is in a 350ml jug. This is with the two hole tip and with steam temp set to 130 degrees so just under 2 bar of pressure.


 Exactly the same here with the Elizabeth, Bianca's little sister. Boiler temp at 140C, but boiler it's much smaller, but still using a two hole steam tip, which restricts the flow considerably.

So I don't think you have anything to worry about.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Mrboots2u said:


> I use the 4 tip on small amounts of milk doesn't take 40 seconds


 He said with the 4 hole tip it takes 25-30s. 40 odd seconds was with the 2 hole tip, which seems about right to me.


----------



## jonnycooper29

I thought I'd time it this morning, took about 25 seconds to steam enough for a largeish flat white with the 2 hole tip. It's quick enough to start steaming as I lift the lever and finish before the shot is pulled!


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## jeebsy

Baffo said:


> not had a chance to meet him just yet (lockdown and all), I might have spoken with him on their IG (unless it was somebody else) and he was very nice and helpful in helping me pick the beans.
> 
> once it's possible to actually get inside the shop I will totally want to have a chat with him. @jeebsy you've been warned!


 That was me, hiya! I'm the only person on the insta, i'm usually at the shop Saturday until lunchtime if you want to have a chat through the perspex


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## HVL87

Alex_L said:


> Milk steaming on the Bianca.
> 
> I recently watched James Hoffman's £1500 machine video and was fascinated by milk steaming times he recorded I.e. 10 seconds for the rocket and 19 for the Mara to get 200g milk to 60 degrees and all the machines under 20s. Watching it made me think it takes me longer on the Bianca to do about the same and I guess I expected it to be comparable or better to these machines.
> 
> So, I got the scales and stop watch out and found getting 200g milk from ~5 degrees to 60-65 takes around 45 seconds - this is in a 350ml jug. This is with the two hole tip and with steam temp set to 130 degrees so just under 2 bar of pressure. To get down near 20-25 seconds I need to up the temp to 135 and use the four hole tip.
> 
> I'm aware this is a very rough comparison but it makes me think something isn't quite right (probably my technique) or I'm missing something as I'd assumed the four hole tip and temps like 135 were for larger volumes/jugs.
> 
> What are other owners experience of milk steaming times on the Bianca?


 I noticed this as well. I don't think the timings in the video made sense based on videos I've watched of the same machines and similar amount of milk. It takes me around 20 seconds to steam 200ml of milk to 60C at a steam temp of 130C. That's using a 3 hole tip on the ACS Minima 2.3l service boiler!

I don't think your technique would be the issue as from what I understand as long as long you're not generating really large bubbles your milk should heat at the same rate.


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## Johey

Hi Guys,

I just got another question regarding the steam valve: During the last 1,5 years the "valve clearance" (hope that's the right expression) became bigger and bigger. For the hot water valve I need to turn less than a quarter of a turn (because I hardly use the hot water), but for the steam I almost need to turn a full turn until the valve opens.
I never fully close the valve (until it's blocked). I just close it and slightly turn until I can feel the resistance and the turn back a bit towards "open".
I assume this is nothing Bianca or Lelit specific but has to do with those kind of valves.
Is that "clearance" normal? Is there a way to fix it (replace the valve)?

Thanks, Florian


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## Lesd

Hi Dave

You mentioned in one of your forum replies that you are reviewing a replacement fir the current Bianca, Bianca 2?

I am interested in the Bianca but assume the replacement will be released some time next year and I may be prepared to wait if there are significant changes/improvements. Can you say at this extremely early point in time if there will be changes worth waiting for?

Thanks

Lesd


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## Lesd

Forgot to add that I am very seriously thinking about the ACS Minima if I buy right now as it provides a considerable saving.


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## DavecUK

Lesd said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> You mentioned in one of your forum replies that you are reviewing a replacement fir the current Bianca, Bianca 2?
> 
> I am interested in the Bianca but assume the replacement will be released some time next year and I may be prepared to wait if there are significant changes/improvements. Can you say at this extremely early point in time if there will be changes worth waiting for?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Lesd


 No I can't really...because it may well change quite a lot between now and then, or not at all, or perhaps nothing will change and it won't be released. It's like a computer, if you always wait for the latest model due to come out, you will never buy one.


----------



## Lesd

Hi Dave

Very good of you to respond so quickly, much appreciated. I don't think I will wait, as you say it's like a computer purchase.

A question, as my wife and I only drink milky coffees would you say a HX machine may have its limitations and a Dual Boiler would be better suited to our needs?

Thanks

Les


----------



## DavecUK

Lesd said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> Very good of you to respond so quickly, much appreciated. I don't think I will wait, as you say it's like a computer purchase.
> 
> A question, as my wife and I only drink milky coffees would you say a HX machine may have its limitations and a Dual Boiler would be better suited to our needs?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Les


 If you only drink Milky coffee, from a taste perspective the HX vs Dual Boiler may make little difference. Once you start making espresso and Americano...then of course there is more.

From an ease of use perspective the Dual Boiler machine, if within budget, is better.



No Flushing (admittedly MaraX doesn't need flushing)


Shot after shot, no special prpocedures needed


Great stieaming, totally divorced from brewing


Can run with steam boiler off until needed


easier to descale, or do boiler water changes for steam boiler


Future proof requirements


The HX often has the advantage cited of always fairly fresh water from the HX, which is true.


----------



## DavecUK

Johey said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I just got another question regarding the steam valve: During the last 1,5 years the "valve clearance" (hope that's the right expression) became bigger and bigger. For the hot water valve I need to turn less than a quarter of a turn (because I hardly use the hot water), but for the steam I almost need to turn a full turn until the valve opens.
> I never fully close the valve (until it's blocked). I just close it and slightly turn until I can feel the resistance and the turn back a bit towards "open".
> I assume this is nothing Bianca or Lelit specific but has to do with those kind of valves.
> Is that "clearance" normal? Is there a way to fix it (replace the valve)?
> 
> Thanks, Florian


 have you been opening the valve all the way quite hard and bent the circlip that "pulls" the valve open? It's the only way I can think the opening position can change


----------



## jonnycooper29

Sorry to divert the conversation away from the discussion above, but I've just had a bit of a revelation.. since owner the bianca, and long before that with other machines too, I've been a bit frustrated with the process of making espresso. With the bianca, I have tried so many different things and no matter what, I always get spritzing/spraying.

Having just bought a VST 18g basket, I started to go back to profiles people have suggested on here. Im currently on Origin's Sam Fermin (had it years ago at their cafe and to this date is the best flat white I've ever tasted), and it's a tad lighter than I normally go. I decided to try an initial full open position on the paddle until it gets to around 2 bar, then close down the paddle to hold it at 2 bar. Drips started at 12 seconds and I opened it up slowly til at 8 bar and 40g out of 18g.

After an initial taste, I thought it was another underextracted shot, then I started thinking about it more, and slurping it a bit more. I started to taste different things and the initial perceived sourness started to taste like sweet acidity, like an orange. The more I slurped away, the more I appreciated this and I really enjoyed it. With the slow Preinfusion and ramp up, there was also no spraying.. I don't think the good flavour and no channelling are independent from each other..

Anyway, my long essay is over and I'm off to try and repeat my last result!


----------



## yahyoh

Hey Biancanas,

I received my Bianca today from DHL after receiving 2 Elizabeth's with 2 different issues, while i'm very excited upon unboxing it and checking it, i noticed the rail frame under drip tray is slightly bent 😭( probably DHL threw the package or dropped it) despite being double boxed. well the issue is not huge just really annoying as it is not a cheap machine its jsut causing the drip try to wobble a bit.

at least everything seems working fine for now, i might try to straighten the frame. any suggestion?


----------



## cuprajake

Not good, id get on to the seller. This should be covered by warranty from dhl

Its a stainless steel fram so not going to be the easiest to bend back.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@yahyoh - I agree with @Cuprajake here. I have to say, you had your fair share of bad luck with coffee machines, I grant you that.

However, its not your fault, it's not your responsibility to ensure the machines gets from A to B as it should. That's the responsibility of the currier, and the reseller (and you) pay a good price for that service.

It should be fixed. Don't accept something you are not happy. Despite all the bad luck you had, it's not your fault.


----------



## DavecUK

@yahyoh You go back to the seller. That isn't acceptable. It's the only way things will improve.

Just to help me out can you pm me photos of all the packaging that was used. I have a little work I'm doing on packaging for espresso machines and it would help me.


----------



## yahyoh

Cuprajake said:


> Not good, id get on to the seller. This should be covered by warranty from dhl
> 
> Its a stainless steel fram so not going to be the easiest to bend back.





MediumRoastSteam said:


> @yahyoh - I agree with @Cuprajake here. I have to say, you had your fair share of bad luck with coffee machines, I grant you that.
> 
> However, its not your fault, it's not your responsibility to ensure the machines gets from A to B as it should. That's the responsibility of the currier, and the reseller (and you) pay a good price for that service.
> 
> It should be fixed. Don't accept something you are not happy. Despite all the bad luck you had, it's not your fault.


 Honestly i'm not even sure if the replacement going to arrive in a better shape, at least the machine internally seems fine for now? couriers dont give a f how expensive the machine is. i kinda think the broken Elizabeth's i received the couriers fault for poor handling. lmao im scared to ask for a replacement which might arrive in worse shape!


----------



## yahyoh

DavecUK said:


> @yahyoh You go back to the seller. That isn't acceptable. It's the only way things will improve.
> 
> Just to help me out can you pm me photos of all the packaging that was used. I have a little work I'm doing on packaging for espresso machines and it would help me.


 actually the reseller offred me to return it. im kinda hesitant as the issue is not something affecting the performance of the machine and the replacement might arrive in worse shape or with something broken internally. honestly such heavy expansive machine should be shipped on pallet oh well.

sure i can PM you the packaging pics.


----------



## yahyoh

BTW My bianca came with baskets made by IMS. even the blind basket.

Also for some reason im getting testier espresso than Elizabeth honestly using the same coffee and temp, despite not using flow control much. 😃

how loud the rotary pump should be? i expected to be quieter honestly. like its not very loud but not very quiet either.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

yahyoh said:


> im getting testier espresso than Elizabeth honestly using the same coffee and temp, despite not using flow control much.


 Lies! Total lies! 🤣😂 - You're making jealous and wanting to upgrade! 🤣


----------



## yahyoh

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Lies! Total lies! 🤣😂 - You're making jealous and wanting to upgrade! 🤣


 Haha , machine design honestly looks like way better than Elizabeth and it is very heavy like around 25-27kg i think. Everyone coming around complimenting how good it looks.

also, yesterday i did 5 shots back to back and temp was really stable.

Steaming 200ML milk at 2.5 bar takes around 15-17 secs ( you have to be really good with technique 😂)


----------



## Gunder

I'm getting my Bianca tomorrow at some point from Bella B. I've only used the Rocket Appartamento before now, and was wondering something about temperature management: Will I need to flush the group before pulling shots in order to not douse the coffee in overly hot water? I'm expecting that the PID control on the boiler will mean that the water temp is less variable than with my old HX, but I'm assuming that the temp in the thermosyphon might still overheat the initial water travelling to the puck?


----------



## Gunder

Could someone with this machine do me a favour and measure the height of the machine from the counter-top to the highest point on the machine? (Which I assume is the top of the flow adjustment paddle?)

Various sites list the Bianca as being 40cm tall which would just fit under my cupboards, but I'm not sure if that includes the paddle or not.


----------



## cuprajake

Top of the paddle is 40cm just checked


----------



## DavecUK

Gunder said:


> I'm getting my Bianca tomorrow at some point from Bella B. I've only used the Rocket Appartamento before now, and was wondering something about temperature management: Will I need to flush the group before pulling shots in order to not douse the coffee in overly hot water? I'm expecting that the PID control on the boiler will mean that the water temp is less variable than with my old HX, but I'm assuming that the temp in the thermosyphon might still overheat the initial water travelling to the puck?


 Twin boiler no HX. The thermosyphon is purely circulation of brew water through the group to keep it at the right temperature, no need to flush before the shot...doing so might even disturb the temperature stability for the shot itself.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

To complement on what Dave said&#8230; with the Bianca, it does a quick overheat of the group from cold. So the brew boiler will actually go to approx. 130C and then cool down gradually. I think that, from the factory, the temperature showing in the display is the preset temperature, rather than the actual temperature. Make sure you set this up correctly and let the machine stabilise before you brew away. It's he advanced setting TR which would be set to 1 (rather than O). The Elizabeth does exactly the same. 👍


----------



## Gunder

MediumRoastSteam said:


> It's he advanced setting TR which would be set to 1 (rather than O).


 I'm not sure I understand this sentence. Hopefully it will be clear when I'm looking at the machine tomorrow.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Gunder said:


> I'm not sure I understand the last sentence in this post. Hopefully it will be clear when I'm looking at the machine tomorrow.


 As bed time reading&#8230; if you haven't done&#8230; check out Dave's review of the Bianca. 👍


----------



## yahyoh

Guys do you think it is normal to hear the pump like hitting something once it stops while refilling steam boiler( it doesnt happen while brewing), do you think it needs tightening. it actually my first rotary pump machine. also how loud it should be? as i expected it to be almost silent compared to Elizabeth 😁.


----------



## cuprajake

It will be a solenoid shutting.

Try to film it and upload to YouTube


----------



## DavecUK

yahyoh said:


> Guys do you think it is normal to hear the pump like hitting something once it stops while refilling steam boiler( it doesnt happen while brewing), do you think it needs tightening. it actually my first rotary pump machine. also how loud it should be? as i expected it to be almost silent compared to Elizabeth 😁.


 When refilling a service boiler it's absolutely normal to hear a clunk at the end of a fill....in fact if you didn't, it "might" mean the solenoid is shutting fractionally late e.g. just after the pump stops..

The Elizabeth with the quietX pump is very quiet, quieter than the MaraX. Bianca I think is super quiet, overall much quieter than most/all other rotary pump machines. As Jake said, upload a video and talk at the same time to give us some idea of relative noise levels.


----------



## Gunder

I received my machine from Bella Barista today and have noticed that there appear to be small black particles in both the brew water and water from the steam boiler. This is after flushing the machine 4 times as per the Bella Barista instructions I got with the machine. I have searched online and have found several people with Bianca and Mara machines complaining of the same issue. Some have owned their machines for a while, others are brand new.

The water doesn't taste or smell bad, but it's still pretty concerning to see this happening. I've only used the machine with RO water that's then remineralised with Third Wave Water's espresso profile powder. The water doesn't have these particles present before going through the machine, only afterwards. I've attached a picture of some water flushed out of the group. You can clearly make out the particles against the white saucer.

Here is a link to the home-barista.com forums where other users are discussing what appears to be the same issue: https://www.home-barista.com/repairs/lelit-bianca-particles-forming-in-boiler-rpavlis-water-t70440-20.html#p772779

Has anyone here experienced a similar issue, or has any clue what might be happening? I'll have to wait until Monday, but I'll definitely be talking to BB about it.


----------



## DavecUK

Could it be activated charcoal from a filter....I don't use filters at all, so have never seen this on a machine of my own?


----------



## Gunder

DavecUK said:


> Could it be activated charcoal from a filter....I don't use filters at all, so have never seen this on a machine of my own?


 That was my first thought, as the Zero Water filter jug might use some charcoal as part of its RO filter? The issue is that the resulting Third Wave Water I'm making from this RO water doesn't seem to have any black particles in it before it goes into the machine.

Also, this wasn't ever an issue with my old Appartamento, which I also used this water in.


----------



## DavecUK

Perhaps the factory use a filter when wet testing.


----------



## Gunder

Could be. I really hope I don't have to pack this heavy thing back up and ship it back to BB.


----------



## DavecUK

I'd flush it again, see if it lessens or disappears. I always put 7+ litres through a new machine.


----------



## cuprajake

Have you brewed any coffee in it yet, have you taken the screen and seal off. It could be a number of things.

Is it coming from every exit point


----------



## cuprajake

DavecUK said:


> I'd flush it again, see if it lessens or disappears. I always put 7+ litres through a new machine.


 I flushed once, one boiler lot than brewd 🤣🤦🤷

But then i eat dirt at work 😛


----------



## Gunder

I brewed a single espresso with it before noticing the issue.

I haven't taken the shower screen off, or the group seal.

It seems to be coming from both the group and the hot water tap.


----------



## Gunder

Just did another flush. Particles are still present.

Not sure how useful this information is, but I can move some of the little black particles around with a magnet...

I got the idea from the home-barista.com thread I mentioned, as someone there noticed that he could do the same, so I tried it on my own particles.

Not all of them, but some seem to jump right out of the water when I hold a rare earth magnet close to the bowl I dispense the water into.


----------



## Pasturemaster

Gunder said:


> That was my first thought, as the Zero Water filter jug might use some charcoal as part of its RO filter? The issue is that the resulting Third Wave Water I'm making from this RO water doesn't seem to have any black particles in it before it goes into the machine.
> 
> Also, this wasn't ever an issue with my old Appartamento, which I also used this water in.


 I'm fairly sure that almost all of the people who had issues with their Biancas were using TWW or something similar.
Could be coincidence.


----------



## cuprajake

Why buy third wave. Just make your own with potassium bicarbonate.

Its super easy and your machine will never scale.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@Cuprajake - any reason you use potassium over sodium bicarbonate? What's your recipe?


----------



## cuprajake

Its the dr pavlis recipe.

App his thinking was theres enough good stuff in coffee that the water shouldn't add to it, the potassium bicarbonate is enough to trigger fill sensors

To make up the concentrate add 10 grams of potassium bicarbonate to one liter of distilled water

To make up the espresso water just add 40 grams of concentrate to a 4 liter bottle.


----------



## cuprajake

If you Google his name theres loads of discussion on it.

You can also add more potassium bicarbonate to dull acidity i believe.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@Cuprajake - cool cool. I just googled it. It's the same concentration I'm using, 100mg/L, but I'm using with sodium bicarbonate.

I was curious if you had tried both and found a difference in taste. 👍


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

MediumRoastSteam said:


> curious if you had tried both and found a difference in taste


 It will be useful to understand if they also make a difference in scaling in boilers especially if one were to steam milk, say 2-3 times a day. Thx


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> It will be useful to understand if they also make a difference in scaling in boilers especially if one were to steam milk, say 2-3 times a day. Thx


 They don't scale. That's the beauty of it. 😉

ps: that's my understanding at least. @DavecUK and @Rob1 can confirm.


----------



## lake_m

I currently use Sodium Bi Carbonate at present to bring the TDS and pH levels up, but certainly curious to try Potassium if the concentrations are the same.


----------



## thusband

MediumRoastSteam said:


> cool cool. I just googled it. It's the same concentration I'm using, 100mg/L, but I'm using with sodium bicarbonate.
> 
> I was curious if you had tried both and found a difference in taste. 👍


 Boy, I've been way off base I guess. I've been using .5g/L (500mg) of potassium bicarbonate but the water seems to taste fine and I like my espresso.


----------



## cuprajake

I think from the reading theres already alot of sodium present in coffee, thus adding it to water adds more. Were as the potassium doesn't really effect the taste

Neither should scale


----------



## DavecUK

I just use a touch of sodium bicarb when I can be bothered, or need to


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

MediumRoastSteam said:


> They don't scale


 The bicarbonate can still scale, in simple terms, if we were to steam milk 2-3 times a day. Rob advises that we need to monitor it by drawing the water from the steam boiler, letting it cool at the room temperature and measure the hardness to identify the level it can reaching the scaling stage. We know the idea of this is flush the steam boiler water out on a regular basis. I know there is more complexity to this than my understanding. 😊

So, what happens if we were to use potassium bicarbonate instead of sodium bicarbonate? Thx


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> The bicarbonate can still scale, in simple terms, if we were to steam milk 2-3 times a day


 My understanding is that it doesn't scale. Yes, it will increase the concentration as it will precipitate. Thus flushing the service boiler every so often is beneficial. But it doesn't stick to the boiler or pipes, nor causes blockages.

From this point on this is way out of my depth so I shall leave the debate to the cognoscenti. 😉👍


----------



## Rob1

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> The bicarbonate can still scale, in simple terms, if we were to steam milk 2-3 times a day. Rob advises that we need to monitor it by drawing the water from the steam boiler, letting it cool at the room temperature and measure the hardness to identify the level it can reaching the scaling stage. We know the idea of this is flush the steam boiler water out on a regular basis. I know there is more complexity to this than my understanding. 😊
> 
> So, what happens if we were to use potassium bicarbonate instead of sodium bicarbonate? Thx


 Potassium and Sodium bicarb added to distilled water won't scale. Hardness needs to be present for scale to form. If alkalinity gets very high (say if you don't flush the service boiler for a while) and there is some hardness present in the water (e.g from an RO unit) then eventually scale but in very small amounts (limited by hardness present) will form but we're talking theoretically. My advice was really find out how often you need to flush the service boiler and do it, or perform a very light and frequent descale to prevent buildup if using water that would start to scale quite quickly in a service boiler e.g. anything bottled.

Also 100mg/l Sodium Bicarb will give a different alkalinity to Potassium bicarb.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

I'm intrigued by potassium bicarb. I have to try this. 👍


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Rob1 said:


> 100mg/l Sodium Bicarb will give a different alkalinity to Potassium bicarb.


 Thanks Rob. I am curious to understand what the difference in amount is. Could you give an give an example - a ballpark figure - please?

Cheers!


----------



## Rob1

Cuprajake said:


> Why buy third wave. Just make your own with potassium bicarbonate.
> 
> Its super easy and your machine will never scale.


 I believe TWW use Calcium citrate, magnesium sulphate and sodium chloride to get 10mg/l Sodium and about 40mg/l alkalinity from citrates while also gaining what is supposed to be the ideal hardness from Magnesium and Calcium. They have a few different recipes now though I believe.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Thanks Rob. I am curious to understand what the difference in amount is. Could you give an give an example - a ballpark figure - please?
> 
> Cheers!


 I actually wrote a spreadsheet to calculate this, a year ago when Rob and I had some lengthy conversations about all of this.

I can try dig it out later, and someone can verify whether I'm right or wrong. 😉


----------



## cuprajake

Wrong thread


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I actually wrote a spreadsheet to calculate this, a year ago when Rob and I had some lengthy conversations about all of this.
> 
> I can try dig it out later, and someone can verify whether I'm right or wrong. 😉


 Awesome. Please note it's just an academic interest as the remineralised Osmio zero water is used for A to Z purposes at home. I have had extensive conversations with Rob, Dave and Mark on this. We will continue to use the remineralised water as such inc the espresso machine. I look forward to your excel with a keen interest mate! Thanks

EDIT:

Sorry for sidetracking the focus of the thread. Agree with Jake. 🙏


----------



## Gunder

Did more flushing today. The amount of black particles I'm getting from flushing the group seems to have greatly decreased, but I'm still getting quite a lot from the hot water tap.


----------



## DavecUK

@Gunder how exactly are you flushing the service boiler?


----------



## Gunder

DavecUK said:


> @Gunder how exactly are you flushing the service boiler?


 I'm following the instructions from the Bella Barista guide.

I do Steps 3 - 9 from page 4 of the guide. I've attached a photo of the guide.


----------



## DavecUK

Ah, a very fine guide...keep doing it. I'll often do it 6 or more times on new machines


----------



## Gunder

Yeah, it's been a great help. Thanks for writing it!


----------



## Rob1

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Thanks Rob. I am curious to understand what the difference in amount is. Could you give an give an example - a ballpark figure - please?
> 
> Cheers!


 Not of the top of my head but my spreadsheet has the remineralisation page with everything you need there. You can use the molar mass of Potassium, Sodium and bicarbonate (all listed) to calculate how much of either or both you'd need to add.

Sodium Bicarb has a molar mass of 84.007g/mol compared to 100.115g/mol for Potassium Bicarb so you need to add 1.19174592593 x more Potassium Bicarb than Sodium Bicarb to get the same alkalinity from it.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Rob1 said:


> so you need to add 1.19174592593 x more Potassium Bicarb than Sodium Bicarb to


 That's exactly what I get with my spreadsheet. Therefore:

For sodium bicarbonate, 100mg/L will give you an alkalinity of 60.17mg/L as CaCO3. For Potassium bicarbonate, the same amount would give an alkalinity of 50.489mg/L as CaCO3.

Thus, 120mg/L of Potassium bicarbonate will give you an alkalinity of 60.587mg/L as CaCO3.

Edit: I know we are way off topic here. Wondering whether mods could move all this alkalinity talk to

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/53491-non-scaling-water-calculator/page/2/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=791403&embedComment=791403&embedDo=findComment#comment-791403


----------



## Gunder

Done another 4 or 5 flush cycles today. The grouphead is clear, but I'm still getting particles from the steam boiler.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> Ah, a very fine guide


 Do you know who wrote it? 🙃😉


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Great videos from Lelit insider:

This one compares a standard E61 group (MaraX and the Bianca) - It's in Italian though (ask away if you want to ask anything related to the explanation) 😉


----------



## yahyoh

Guys do you think i should use the lelit water softener if we im using RO water on the machine?

water here is kinda hard ( i never tested it actually) but we get scale build up on shower heads and mixers etc...


----------



## cuprajake

How do you make your ro?


----------



## yahyoh

Cuprajake said:


> How do you make your ro?


 with RO water filter duh 😂


----------



## cuprajake




----------



## MediumRoastSteam

yahyoh said:


> with RO water filter duh 😂


 How do you remineralise your RO? 😉


----------



## yahyoh

MediumRoastSteam said:


> How do you remineralise your RO? 😉


 Actually it has a small tap (valve) which introduce some minerals back to final water output, ive set the TDS to around 110 ppm.

I'm only not super sure if the RO filtrations would reduce the water hardness. therefore i asked regarding using lelit water softener.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

yahyoh said:


> Actually it has a small tap which introduce some minerals back to final water output, ive set the TDS to around 110 ppm.
> 
> I'm only not super sure if the RO filtrations would reduce the water hardness. therefore i asked regarding using lelit water softener.


 If it's a 5 stage reverse osmosis system it should pretty much deplete the water of everything as the water passes through membranes and resign.

Are you sure it's an RO system you have? Using the Lelit filter would be pointless if you have an RO system.


----------



## DavecUK

yahyoh said:


> Actually it has a small tap (valve) which introduce some minerals back to final water output, ive set the TDS to around 110 ppm.
> 
> I'm only not super sure if the RO filtrations would reduce the water hardness. therefore i asked regarding using lelit water softener.


 If you are introducing minerals back into the water...that's not good, you might as well add sodium or potassium bicarbonate to increase the TDS for flavour reasons...at least it's non scaling.

If you mix hard water with RO using that Tap valve the lelit water filter is simply going to change calcium carbonate which scales to sodium carbonate, which doesn't. A rather wasteful excercise.


----------



## yahyoh

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If it's a 5 stage reverse osmosis system it should pretty much deplete the water of everything as the water passes through membranes and resign.
> 
> Are you sure it's an RO system you have? Using the Lelit filter would be pointless if you have an RO system.


 yes I'm sure its 5 stages RO water filter.


----------



## yahyoh

DavecUK said:


> If you are introducing minerals back into the water...that's not good, you might as well add sodium or potassium bicarbonate to increase the TDS for flavour reasons...at least it's non scaling.
> 
> If you mix hard water with RO using that Tap valve the lelit water filter is simply going to change calcium carbonate which scales to sodium carbonate, which doesn't. A rather wasteful excercise.


 Actually we are introducing some TDS back for drinking water for health reasons as recommended by water experts? i think 😅

is it bad for boilers to introduce back some TDS?

Although we have been running the same water in stainless steel kittle which doesnt have any scale since 3-4 months . I think i might get water hardness tester strips to be on the safe side.


----------



## Rob1

Get some test trips and see what you're doing. TDS isn't a good measure of hardness or alkalinity.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

On the video from Lelit insider I posted above.

Check the Bianca video demonstrating the pressure safety features around 2:30 on&#8230; it has Bakelite knobs and paddle; (I.e.: not wood).

maybe an option on newer models that Lelit might be considering?


----------



## yahyoh

MediumRoastSteam said:


> On the video from Lelit insider I posted above.
> 
> Check the Bianca video demonstrating the pressure safety features around 2:30 on&#8230; it has Bakelite knobs and paddle; (I.e.: not wood).
> 
> maybe an option on newer models that Lelit might be considering?


 Which video?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

yahyoh said:


> Which video?


 Err&#8230; approx. 13 posts above this one&#8230; the second one, which talks about the Bianca's safety features.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/41144-lelit-bianca/?do=embed&comment=851614&embedComment=851614&embedDo=findComment


----------



## yahyoh

Guys, is it normal to feel some mild resistance with flow control while moving it around? most of the time its fine and moving easy, some times i feel some resistance.


----------



## Rob1

No, you may need to lubricate the seals on the paddle or some scale or debris may have made its way to the needle valve.


----------



## Resseh

Where is the best place to buy the Bianca? I've googled it and I don't recognise any of the suppliers so not sure if it's worth paying a bit extra for better customer service etc.


----------



## cuprajake

uk? bella barista


----------



## cuprajake

2 yr warranty too


----------



## Resseh

thanks - i checked the supplier forum and feedback on their customer service seems great. seems to be nearly £100 more expensive but after my last coffee machine died, i don't mind paying a bit extra for decent support.


----------



## cuprajake

whos the other suppliers as there is a know rouge about


----------



## darkstefano

Hello, u know how many PIDS are installed on this espresso machine?


----------



## DavecUK

darkstefano said:


> Hello, u know how many PIDS are installed on this espresso machine?
> 
> View attachment 61525


 There are two independent PID loops and 2 sensors, steam and brew boiler.


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## Marcusa

Hi Everyone,

Took delivery of my new Bianca yesterday and looking for advice on dialling it in. I'm using a niche grinder (which is also brand new) with fresh beans (two weeks old). The niche is set at on 23. and I'm putting 18g into the porta filter, aiming for 25-32 seconds to get 36g out. I've pulled a couple of shots and it's taking approx 10-12 seconds before any liquid appears and I reach 36g in 32 secs, which seemed about right. However I noticed the pressure was always around 4bar, despite the paddle being in the fully open position. To set a baseline (before playing with the paddle) I'd like to be getting at least 9bar and pulling the shots 25-32 secs for 36g out.

How do I get the pressure up? Is the grind too coarse or too fine? I've got the porta filter pretty tight in the head. Am applying reasonable pressure when tamping. Any help is much appreciated as I don't want to waste time and good coffee going down blind alleys.

Marcus


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## MediumRoastSteam

@Marcusa - hello and welcome.

what reading do you get on the pump gauge? Could you please video your workflow so it's easier to diagnose?

slso, with a blank disk (for backflushing) run the machine with the valve fully open. What reading do you get on the group gauge?


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## thusband

Marcusa said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Took delivery of my new Bianca yesterday and looking for advice on dialling it in. I'm using a niche grinder (which is also brand new) with fresh beans (two weeks old). The niche is set at on 23. and I'm putting 18g into the porta filter, aiming for 25-32 seconds to get 36g out. I've pulled a couple of shots and it's taking approx 10-12 seconds before any liquid appears and I reach 36g in 32 secs, which seemed about right. However I noticed the pressure was always around 4bar, despite the paddle being in the fully open position. To set a baseline (before playing with the paddle) I'd like to be getting at least 9bar and pulling the shots 25-32 secs for 36g out.
> 
> How do I get the pressure up? Is the grind too coarse or too fine? I've got the porta filter pretty tight in the head. Am applying reasonable pressure when tamping. Any help is much appreciated as I don't want to waste time and good coffee going down blind alleys.
> 
> Marcus


 I think it must different for just about everybody. My Niche is set to around 10 but find I need to grind a little finer (usually half a click at a time) as the beans age. I grind 18g, give it a stir with WDT, slap the portafilter down lightly to level the grind a bit and then tamp until I start to feel the puck give way just a little bit.

Are you using the paddle? I usually have the paddle half way open until I see a few drops (usually after 9-10 seconds) then open it up to 9 bar. I aim for around 33-34 in both grams and seconds. There are times, though, when timing can stretch out to 40 seconds and I can't figure out why. I try to maintain consistency from shot to shot but something obviously changes. Shots are just about always good despite any inconsistencies.


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## cuprajake

Hi,

You're too coarse, grind finer and try again

Atm just keep the flow control all the way open till you get used to it.


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## MediumRoastSteam

@Marcusa - I missed one key bit of info from your post. The timing! You quoted 10-12 seconds!

@Cuprajake - is bang on: grind finer, until you are happy with the timing and taste.


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## Marcusa

Hi Everyone,

schoolboy error; was using the larger basket (20g). Have changed the basket to 18g and will try again.

Also, might not have secured the porta filter enough at the start of each shot, as subsequent shots have been at 9bar since I've made a point of tightening a touch more.

Paddle is in the open position as I'm trying to establish a baseline.

Didn't notice the pump pressure, will look out for it now.


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## yahyoh

Guys is my Bianca kinda loud for rotary pump?i opened it and inspected it closely and nothing seems touching anything.

i think pump motor mounts might be too tight? should i adjust anything? or is it normal?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Hjwl1KagfB87MTGsA96seChGSZc6yESI/view?usp=sharing


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## cuprajake

Something spunds to be vibing

Take the drip tray off and the lid for the resivor and the top grate then try again.

You will need something smaller to catch the drips while trying.


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## yahyoh

Hey guys,

I was back flushing and cleaning & lubing my Bianca today, after doing the lever cam, moved to flow control. Upon removing it. i noticed some green stuff on the sides and the threads and some white stuff on the "jet" i think its called?

https://i.imgur.com/GovswHw.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Rxrah4P.jpg

which seems scale?? even though I'm using RO filtered water with hardness around 20-25 ppm as per the tester below, where TDS is around 120-140 ppm.

https://i.imgur.com/6a12t1I.jpg

this scale seems affecting the flow control which making it impossible to close fully. should i be worried about the boilers? even tho the water is not hard as per the tester. Im really confused.


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## MediumRoastSteam

yahyoh said:


> even though I'm using RO filtered water with hardness around 20-25 ppm as per the tester below, where TDS is around 120-140 ppm.


 If you are using RO, where are you getting the TDS from? Scaling minerals? Salts? Corrosion?


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## yahyoh

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If you are using RO, where are you getting the TDS from? Scaling minerals? Salts? Corrosion?


 Actually the RO system has a valve where you can reintroduce some TDS based on how much you open it, where it was set to around 120 PPM as per the TDS meter. which is good enough for drinking water and good Espresso extraction right?


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## MediumRoastSteam

yahyoh said:


> Actually the RO system has a valve where you can reintroduce some TDS based on how much you open it, where it was set to around 120 PPM as per the TDS meter. which is good enough for drinking water and good Espresso extraction right?


 That's not what I asked. 😊 - well, you partially answered the question. But do you know exactly what you are allowing through? In other words, if there's calcium and magnesium, it might well be limescale.


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## yahyoh

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That's not what I asked. 😊 - well, you partially answered the question. But do you know exactly what you are allowing through? In other words, if there's calcium and magnesium, it might well be limescale.


 But isn't using fully filtered RO water without any minerals is not good for good extraction? 
Guess the water hardness tester strips are not enough?

i might just send a sample of water for lab testing as it can be done FOC from the RO water filter company 😁


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## MediumRoastSteam

yahyoh said:


> But isn't using fully filtered RO water without any minerals is not good for good extraction?
> Guess the water hardness tester strips are not enough?
> 
> i might just send a sample of water for lab testing as it can be done FOC from the RO water filter company 😁


 No no. You are missing the point. You want minerals, but not minerals which will cause scale - sodium bicarbonate and potassium bicarbonate are examples. Add 100mg/L and it will act as a buffer to avoid corrosion and will also conduct current so probes and sensors will work just fine.

No scale ever again. Been doing so over 2 years.


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## yahyoh

MediumRoastSteam said:


> No no. You are missing the point. You want minerals, but not minerals which will cause scale - sodium bicarbonate and potassium bicarbonate are examples. Add 100mg/L and it will act as a buffer to avoid corrosion and will also conduct current so probes and sensors will work just fine.
> 
> No scale ever again. Been doing so over 2 years.


 Do you think using bottled water will be better?


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## MediumRoastSteam

yahyoh said:


> Do you think using bottled water will be better?


 Depends on the water. You need to check the PH and the mineral content, and then work out the alkalinity. Some bottled waters are very, very hard.

There's a thread here called Water Hardness calculator or something like that, engineered by Rob1.


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## yahyoh

Hey Guys


I have been having some issued with E61, where it seems exhausting some water while brewing since i did backflushing and lubing the whole thing!

here's a test while using blind basket








IMG_9298.MOV







drive.google.com





i already removed the lower part and reinstalled it but still the same, moreover ive been getting more wet pucks since this issue started.
Can you guys help!

Thanks

edit: i'm thinking about redoing it all, i will remove the lever\exhaust and inspect everything..hopefully nothing is messed up..


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## yahyoh

Update: i disassembled the whole thing and reinstalled it and now everything seems working fine.
Also soupy puck seems fixed too.


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