# Rancilio Classe 6 a New Beginning



## Joel.Sim

Hi folks. It's time for another thread about a rebuild/refresh of a Rancilio Classe 6. It's safe to say I don't aspire to the result of jeebsy's effort, but I certainly hope to bring it back to life.

Apparently it's sat for 5 years or so, so it will be interesting to see how it goes.

Some pics of the current status.























































I've not discovered yet what the ball valve is for that is at the bottom of that last picture!?!?


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## Dylan

We all have an appetite for restorations finished within a week or so of the initial posting... you can blame Jeebsy for that.

So get going!


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## Joel.Sim

I had some electrical questions in jeebsy's thread and I've got more now.

I don't mind doing electrical tasks, but I definitely like to check and double check before doing them.

First.... The documentation

Inside the machine:










From the manual:










How it's wired for 3 phase as I received it:










Interestingly... The wire configuration now doesn't seem to match any of the diagrams. Has anyone any wisdom on that??

As i mentioned in the other thread I will be switching it to single phase which means "bridging" the 3 contacts on the left. Is it best just to use extra cable for this or something similar to what you can see used in the picture of how it's wired now!?

Last but not least for the moment is this:



















That I've not completely grasped yet!?!?


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## Joel.Sim

Dylan said:


> We all have an appetite for restorations finished within a week or so of the initial posting... you can blame Jeebsy for that.
> 
> So get going!


A week for that result is borderline ridiculous (and well impressive I might add)... I don't stand a chance, lol.


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## Milanski

Any molluscs in there somewhere?


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## Joel.Sim

Milanski said:


> Any molluscs in there somewhere?


Haha.. None so far. We'll see what I find in the boiler, lol.


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## Daren

Have you finished yet?


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## jeebsy

Chop chop


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## oursus

Joel.Sim said:


> I had some electrical questions in jeebsy's thread and I've got more now.
> 
> I don't mind doing electrical tasks, but I definitely like to check and double check before doing them.
> 
> First.... The documentation
> 
> Inside the machine:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the manual:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How it's wired for 3 phase as I received it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly... The wire configuration now doesn't seem to match any of the diagrams. Has anyone any wisdom on that??
> 
> As i mentioned in the other thread I will be switching it to single phase which means "bridging" the 3 contacts on the left. Is it best just to use extra cable for this or something similar to what you can see used in the picture of how it's wired now!?
> 
> Last but not least for the moment is this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That I've not completely grasped yet!?!?


The bridging jumpers are generally useful when connecting spade clips, they also give a really positive mechanical connection - which theoretically reduces the chance of arcing. The post with the locking nuts on the bas is the Earth post for the housing.


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## Joel.Sim

oursus said:


> The bridging jumpers are generally useful when connecting spade clips, they also give a really positive mechanical connection - which theoretically reduces the chance of arcing. The post with the locking nuts on the bas is the Earth post for the housing.


Ok. Thanks for that.

Here I'll show my ignorance/lack of knowledge a little...

What am I earthing the housing to and from??


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## Joel.Sim

Daren said:


> Have you finished yet?





jeebsy said:


> Chop chop


Oh dear what have I gone and started!?!?

I've been in the same room as it since I posted, but that was just to grab a beer... So, no, not quite there yet.


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## oursus

Joel.Sim said:


> Ok. Thanks for that.
> 
> Here I'll show my ignorance/lack of knowledge a little...
> 
> What am I earthing the housing to and from??


Domestic (single phase) appliances are connected to the earth in the three core (twin & earth) supply, otherwise equipotential bonding goes back to a clamp on bare copper of a cold water feed. Might be an idea to have a domestic appliance engineer take a look if you're not comfortable... Getting a belt from an appliance isn't much fun when it's your own - significant others tend to take a REALLY dim view, not to mention kids/visitors.


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## Joel.Sim

oursus said:


> Domestic (single phase) appliances are connected to the earth in the three core (twin & earth) supply, otherwise equipotential bonding goes back to a clamp on bare copper of a cold water feed. Might be an idea to have a domestic appliance engineer take a look if you're not comfortable... Getting a belt from an appliance isn't much fun when it's your own - significant others tend to take a REALLY dim view, not to mention kids/visitors.


Yeah OK. They make sound like it absolutely must be used, which I didn't understand since it will be earthed via mains supply. Which if I understand your comment correctly, that will be sufficient!?!?

Agreed getting a boot is no fun... Been there, done that  And yes I certainly don't plan on setting one up for the wife or munchkins or anyone else who strays by the machine.


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## oursus

The cabinet will need to be earthed, there may be an internal post/terminal to attach to, manufacturing redundancy... I would personally always get a pat test before use, just take it to your nearest electrical contractors.


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## jeebsy

There's an earth terminal on the right middle of the frame under where the element is, and another near the front left i think.

I'm pretty clueless with electronics/electrics, the thing with this is if you're not sure about anything then ask, and if you're still not sure then get someone who does know to check it.


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## oursus

jeebsy said:


> There's an earth terminal on the right middle of the frame under where the element is, and another near the front left i think.
> 
> I'm pretty clueless with electronics/electrics, the thing with this is if you're not sure about anything then ask, and if you're still not sure then get someone who does know to check it.


Couldn't have put it better - with the new consumer units & rcds, not the issue it was a few yrs ago, but in an older house incorrect earthing can still be a serious hazard.


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## grumpydaddy

Bonding all the exposed metal parts in a kitchen like water pipes, sink, metal prep tables etc. is a belt and braces idea. Having a 10mm2 earth cable that runs to each item continuously, without any joints in the cable and having that earth bonding cable connect directly to the main incoming building earth terminal ensures a very low resistance path for fault current.

My view is that if you have pipework running to the machine from beneath the worktop then adding this large cross section earth strap between pipework and machine makes things doubly safe.

The actual rule for new builds reads: Regulation 544.2.5 now allows for part of the bonding path to an appliance to be via theCPC of the flex. This is particularly useful for bathrooms with electric towel rails etc.However supplementary bonding shall be applied to the CPC of that circuit unless* all circuits within the location are protected by a 30mA RCD.*



*
*So the earth in a flex is good provided that every circuit in the room (lights, sockets etc.) are connected to rcd's in the consumer unit

Yours will not be a new build perhaps so the rule would not apply but you can see that our regulations set out to preclude any chance of getting a shock.


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## Joel.Sim

Ok. Very much agree with you all and I'll get it checked out before it is going into use.

To start with I think we'll run it from a bottle/reservoir and not attached to mains water. Well see how of a pain that is...

Unfortunately we no longer have copper water pipes coming to our kitchen either, so that's going to pose s new issue...


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## Joel.Sim

Fun and games... I most certainly must check with a local professional. The Norwegian electrical system is a little different to others and there is no live and neutral in the wall sockets, but two of equal power...

I would expect this requires the machine to be wired differently from the provided diagrams and may also explain why the current 3 phase wiring looks to be different to the diagrams!?!?


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## Thecatlinux

Commercial machine , normally found in commercial environment where earthing of said environment 'might' require supplementary earth.

hence your earth bolt at the bottom of the machine

THe machine's supply cable should have an earth wire in it . Visually check the terminations at both ends is a good start .

if you are concerned about the machines safety get a PAT test carried out.


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## oursus

Joel.Sim said:


> Fun and games... I most certainly must check with a local professional. The Norwegian electrical system is a little different to others and there is no live and neutral in the wall sockets, but two of equal power...
> 
> I would expect this requires the machine to be wired differently from the provided diagrams and may also explain why the current 3 phase wiring looks to be different to the diagrams!?!?


I'd assumed you have the standard EU installation, earth in the collar, live & neutral round terminals, if that's not the case, at a bit of a loss...

The wiring looks like a standard 3 phase to me, jumper used for extra spade clip connectors, shifting everything else one space to the right, with earth on the far right.


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## Joel.Sim

oursus said:


> I'd assumed you have the standard EU installation, earth in the collar, live & neutral round terminals, if that's not the case, at a bit of a loss...
> 
> The wiring looks like a standard 3 phase to me, jumper used for extra spade clip connectors, shifting everything else one space to the right, with earth on the far right.


I always assumed that too. But as it turns out the round terminals are more like 115v each (with that said.. I don't know if this is normal in the EU??). Makes sense now that when I had asked an electrician friend here as which color wire to where (in power sockets, etc), his response was that it didn't matter (aside from earth of course).

Yeah OK. I see what you're saying with the 3-phase connection. The use of the jumper and extra terminal to use the extra spade clip connectors threw me.

Either way I've shot a message off to the local appliance guys and hopefully they'll either point me in the right direction or drop over and have a look some day soon.


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## Joel.Sim

Oh the love that was clearly shown towards this machine


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## jeebsy

Why are those still on!? Get it stripped man!


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## Dylan

I never noticed how far the bolt heads protrude from the shower screen... are the baskets particularly deep to accommodate this? It seems like they are deeper than the common '1p coin' depth


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## Sean

First look at this thread.. Jumped straight to last page for the gleaming final pics...


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## jeebsy

Dylan said:


> I never noticed how far the bolt heads protrude from the shower screen... are the baskets particularly deep to accommodate this? It seems like they are deeper than the common '1p coin' depth


Nah, even with a normal dose you still sometimes get an imprint.

You can get a jet breaker that's countersunk - http://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-equipment-midrange-500-1500/30151-rancilio-silvia-grouphead-screw-mod-where-buy.html - so you can use a countersunk screw and get a flush fit but i haven't been able to find that bit in the UK yet


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## Dylan

Surely buying a button head as it mentions in that link it better than nothing?

And I couldn't see a link to the countersunk jetbreaker, that thread suggesting on the Silva that a countersunk screw pulls into the grouphead and deforms the shower screen as is?


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## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> Why are those still on!? Get it stripped man!


Alright already.... Lol.

That's exactly what I was doing. Just stopped to document it first.


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## jeebsy

Dylan said:


> Surely buying a button head as it mentions in that link it better than nothing?
> 
> And I couldn't see a link to the countersunk jetbreaker, that thread suggesting on the Silva that a countersunk screw pulls into the grouphead and deforms the shower screen as is?


Tried a button head too but the different was negligible.

Some Silvias (and other Rancilios) have a flat breaker, so it won't pull the shower screen in. This is the convex:










or if hotlink doesn't work: http://shoppidsilvia.com/product/flat-shower-screen-kit



*
**http://coffeesnobs.com.au/Attachments/csd-screw-5__1_.jpg*



*
*Whereas mine is flat and has the frankenbolt


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## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> Nah, even with a normal dose you still sometimes get an imprint.
> 
> You can get a jet breaker that's countersunk - http://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-equipment-midrange-500-1500/30151-rancilio-silvia-grouphead-screw-mod-where-buy.html - so you can use a countersunk screw and get a flush fit but i haven't been able to find that bit in the UK yet


This is my plan for that issue.... Just need to find the screws. They didn't have them where I was searching today.

http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machinemods/358287

Looks like I lucked out on the scale front too, so I don't think I'll be doing The Jeebsy full break down.



















Got some good advice today from the local appliance techs pointing me in the right direction (hopefully) on the electrical front. So I'll try and strip and clean what I have to, switch the cable and then see if I can't give it a nice internal acid bath.


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## jeebsy

If you can't find the screws let me know and i'll put a few in an envelope to you.


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## Dylan

Nevermind, just read a bit further, I see what you mean... can you not follow this guys lead and countersink it yourself? http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machinemods/358287


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## Dylan

What about these Jeebsy?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M3-M4-M5-M6-M8-A2-STAINLESS-HEX-SOCKET-FLANGED-BUTTON-HEAD-ALLEN-BOLTS-SCREWS-/321232365051

Dims of the head are in the description


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## jeebsy

Dylan said:


> Nevermind, just read a bit further, I see what you mean... can you not follow this guys lead and countersink it yourself? http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machinemods/358287


I don't a vice, or a countersinking tool, and my drill is quite puny



Dylan said:


> What about these Jeebsy?
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M3-M4-M5-M6-M8-A2-STAINLESS-HEX-SOCKET-FLANGED-BUTTON-HEAD-ALLEN-BOLTS-SCREWS-/321232365051
> 
> Dims of the head are in the description


I've got bolts very similar to them but they don't actually protrude that much less than the original bolt


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## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> If you can't find the screws let me know and i'll put a few in an envelope to you.


Cheers man. Appreciate the offer. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.


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## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> I don't a vice, or a countersinking tool, and my drill is quite puny


I'm not entirely convinced that a vice is necessary. I would think that there's a good chance it would mould into place when you screw it in.

Can't imagine you need a very powerful drill either. But, probably does help to actually use the countersinking bit.

But surely there's someone in your area that can sort it for you for a coffee or two.


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## jeebsy

I'll try it later on but it didn't look like it would sink, and you'd just end up with something harder to clean. Machine is decommissioned for the time being anyway


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## Dylan

Wasn't suggesting you do it yourself Jeebsy!

At the very least you would need a vice to hold the bit you were drilling, and a pillar drill with the correct attachment. But you could probably find a place that would do it for you for a few quid... but as is the way with workshop places, sometimes you get nobs who just think your making them extra pointless work, and sometimes you get people happy to help out with a project.

There is probably a member or two on here who could do it as well.


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## risky

Reading further on the coffeegeek thread it has been suggested there too that it should just form when you screw it in. No idea why the OP in that thread didn't think of that.

@jeebsy if you want to do this I'll countersink the back bit for you.


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## jeebsy

I've just been fiddling about and the shower screen doesn't bend very easily - have had quite a bit of pressure on and it's still not flush. If you just screwed it in would that put too much pressure on the threads/risk damaging them?


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## risky

jeebsy said:


> I've just been fiddling about and the shower screen doesn't bend very easily - have had quite a bit of pressure on and it's still not flush. If you just screwed it in would that put too much pressure on the threads/risk damaging them?


What is this bolt/screw? M4/M5? The screen should give long before the threads. The guy on coffeegeek managed it I'm sure, but if you don't want to risk it I could do the DIY press to it.


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## jeebsy

M5 x 12 i think. Just a bit para about damaging the group


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## risky

jeebsy said:


> M5 x 12 i think. Just a bit para about damaging the group


Aye not worth it to risk it at all.


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## oursus

Apologies Joel, I typed a fairly lengthy response on the PC a couple of days ago, I think it may have timed out or something, not sent -

The upshot is, a mate of mine who contracted as a sparky in Norway for a while got back to me, apparently he was working on the upgrade of your network (or part of it) to 3 phase.

Afraid much of what he said has now leaked out of my ears - there seem to be different installations in different areas of Norway, correct?

The one really relevant thing he mentioned, was that if your house was wired before the 80s, you may well have a 3 phase supply coming into your house & it wouldn't be a major job to run an outlet to where you want the machine, as he pointed out, even if you are not working the machine hard, it will drag a lot of current when you turn the power switch. (Major job, admittedly defined by an installations sparky, not you or me!) He seemed to think you would probably have a 3 phase outlet somewhere (only prob is apparently there are more than one kind, one of them has 5 pins, I think, & there's one with an irregular shape, not sure if they are one and the same)

He also seemed to think, that there is a large chunk of the network that is not earthed! So everything Jeebsy, Grumpydaddy have said goes double!! (I'd be maintaining eye contact & backing out of the room slowly at this point, possibly with a chair in my hand!!!)

Hopefully this will send this time!

PS - I've used www.espressoxxl.de a couple of times, uber efficient, kit gets to me in the UK faster than some domestic sellers, hefty stocklist, particularly for consumables & smaller bits, when comparing to some of the UK suppliers.


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## Joel.Sim

oursus said:


> Apologies Joel, I typed a fairly lengthy response on the PC a couple of days ago, I think it may have timed out or something, not sent -
> 
> The upshot is, a mate of mine who contracted as a sparky in Norway for a while got back to me, apparently he was working on the upgrade of your network (or part of it) to 3 phase.
> 
> Afraid much of what he said has now leaked out of my ears - there seem to be different installations in different areas of Norway, correct?
> 
> The one really relevant thing he mentioned, was that if your house was wired before the 80s, you may well have a 3 phase supply coming into your house & it wouldn't be a major job to run an outlet to where you want the machine, as he pointed out, even if you are not working the machine hard, it will drag a lot of current when you turn the power switch. (Major job, admittedly defined by an installations sparky, not you or me!) He seemed to think you would probably have a 3 phase outlet somewhere (only prob is apparently there are more than one kind, one of them has 5 pins, I think, & there's one with an irregular shape, not sure if they are one and the same)
> 
> He also seemed to think, that there is a large chunk of the network that is not earthed! So everything Jeebsy, Grumpydaddy have said goes double!! (I'd be maintaining eye contact & backing out of the room slowly at this point, possibly with a chair in my hand!!!)
> 
> Hopefully this will send this time!
> 
> PS - I've used www.espressoxxl.de a couple of times, uber efficient, kit gets to me in the UK faster than some domestic sellers, hefty stocklist, particularly for consumables & smaller bits, when comparing to some of the UK suppliers.


Hey oursus,

Thanks for the reply. No need to apologise. When someone is offering advice and help freely they can surely do it when it suits them. Sucks when you take the time to type a long reply and then discover you lost it though.

I believe it is correct about varying network in Norway.

We do have 3 phase coming into our house, but to get it to the kitchen and have it done in a tidy manner would be quite the task. I know our kitchen inside out after completely stripping the room and rebuilding it.

I will be getting 3 phase run to one of the rooms in the basement soon though in preparation for the arrival of my roaster  but that's a whole other story.

The local appliance guys have checked out all photos and documentation and happily pointed me in the right direction for the rewire and they've not voiced any concerns about it. Although he did comment that he thought the 3 phase is incorrectly wired into it now, which is not so comforting.

Thanks again for your reply.

To be continued......


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## oursus

Joel.Sim said:


> Hey oursus,
> 
> Thanks for the reply. No need to apologise. When someone is offering advice and help freely they can surely do it when it suits them. Sucks when you take the time to type a long reply and then discover you lost it though.
> 
> I believe it is correct about varying network in Norway.
> 
> We do have 3 phase coming into our house, but to get it to the kitchen and have it done in a tidy manner would be quite the task. I know our kitchen inside out after completely stripping the room and rebuilding it.
> 
> I will be getting 3 phase run to one of the rooms in the basement soon though in preparation for the arrival of my roaster  but that's a whole other story.
> 
> The local appliance guys have checked out all photos and documentation and happily pointed me in the right direction for the rewire and they've not voiced any concerns about it. Although he did comment that he thought the 3 phase is incorrectly wired into it now, which is not so comforting.
> 
> Thanks again for your reply.
> 
> To be continued......


Yeah, that's not so good then. Something around that hot phase supply jumper, by any chance?


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## Joel.Sim

oursus said:


> Yeah, that's not so good then. Something around that hot phase supply jumper, by any chance?


You guessed it.

Can only hope nothing is fried. Would be a bit strange if it was wired wrong from the get go, but who knows who has done what with it in the past!?!?


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## oursus

Yeah, always a gamble with 2nd hand machines! The laws in the UK are a bit tighter... Meter & wiring diagrams time then?


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## Joel.Sim

oursus said:


> Yeah, always a gamble with 2nd hand machines! The laws in the UK are a bit tighter... Meter & wiring diagrams time then?


Yeah I'm guessing that's going to be a good plan.

Unfortunately this one's just going to have to sit for the next two weeks though as it's summer holiday time. Two kids home from daycare means this Pappa ain't fixing an espresso machine, lol.

So, sorry folks but this one's going to be completed more at the pace of what jeebsy found in his, than at the pace he got it done


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## Brewer in training

Joel.Sim said:


> Yeah I'm guessing that's going to be a good plan.
> 
> Unfortunately this one's just going to have to sit for the next two weeks though as it's summer holiday time. Two kids home from daycare means this Pappa ain't fixing an espresso machine, lol.
> 
> So, sorry folks but this one's going to be completed more at the pace of what jeebsy found in his, than at the pace he got it done


The important bit is to do it PROPERLY not quickly..........

Enjoy the project... And the coffee it produces


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## Joel.Sim

Brewer in training said:


> The important bit is to do it PROPERLY not quickly..........
> 
> Enjoy the project... And the coffee it produces


I agree.


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## jeebsy

There were a couple of points i got stuck and had to wait for help from people who know what they were doing. It's so frustrating but as Brewer in Training said it's best to make sure its done properly.

You can get to work on the panels while you're waiting!


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## Joel.Sim

I think I'll call her "Motivation" 

Although this delivery doesn't change the fact that it's holidays and I can't play with the Rancilio...

There'll be another thread in a minute about the state of this when it arrived.


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## jeebsy

New/old/which burrs?


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## Joel.Sim

Brand spanking new (allegedly, see thread in grinders section).

By which burrs are you meaning material?? If so, standard one's not ceramic.


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## Mrboots2u

Joel.Sim said:


> Brand spanking new (allegedly, see thread in grinders section).
> 
> By which burrs are you meaning material?? If so, standard one's not ceramic.


Coffee burrs or Turkish Burrs

New coffee burrs or old coffee burrs


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## Joel.Sim

Well it's finally time to very back to this Rancilio now holidays are over.

Just switched the electrical, so technically it should now be good to go on single phase.

A bit of a thought had crossed my mind (and perhaps it was mentioned in jeebsy's thread!?) regarding the heating element and it's power draw. Since it'll be on a 16amp circuit, but sometimes other things will be running on the same circuit. Is it an option to disconnect one set of wires on the element, there by cutting a third of it's draw?? See picture...



















I realise this would increase it's recovery time, but it will rarely be doing lots of back to back shots, etc.

I could then either leave it on all the time or set it up on a timer so it's good to go of a morning 

Cheers,

Joel.


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## espressotechno

Your element has 3 loops, so disconnecting 1 loop will reduce the load to approx. 2300w....quite safe re. overloading your domestic circuits.

PS Do fit a powerbreaker gizmo (30ma trip) when testing for the first time !


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## Joel.Sim

espressotechno said:


> Your element has 3 loops, so disconnecting 1 loop will reduce the load to approx. 2300w....quite safe re. overloading your domestic circuits.
> 
> PS Do fit a powerbreaker gizmo (30ma trip) when testing for the first time !


Haha.. I had not seen your post but was just correcting myself on the element count after had may pointed that out to me as well. I want quite thinking clearly when I posted 

Thanks for the heads up.

Does this mean that the elements are wired in coloured pairs then?? (ie: 2 black to one, 2 red to one and 2 brown to the other)

Naturally I'll go and check out the wiring schematic again also.


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## espressotechno

Each loop is usually wired in parallel to the other loop(s)in the UK. With your wiring , it looks like you can disconnect one colour (eg brown) completely - make the 2 brown wiring connectors safe with insulating tape.


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## Joel.Sim

espressotechno said:


> Each loop is usually wired in parallel to the other loop(s)in the UK. With your wiring , it looks like you can disconnect one colour (eg brown) completely - make the 2 brown wiring connectors safe with insulating tape.


Nice. That's what I was thinking.

Just found out an electro friend is going to stop in tomorrow and check it out and make sure I'm doing the right thing. Bonus


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## Joel.Sim

Hmmm... Anybody got a smart way of getting the pf seals out??


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## funinacup

Sharp pick

Flat screwdriver

Screw a self tapping screw in and pull with pliers


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## Joel.Sim

funinacup said:


> Sharp pick
> 
> Flat screwdriver
> 
> Screw a self tapping screw in and pull with pliers


I like option c. Good chance I won't damage the unit then I guess.

Pretty safe to say the seals are already done for.


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## funinacup

If it's old it'll probably break into pieces as you pull it, making it easier to get out.


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## Joel.Sim

funinacup said:


> If it's old it'll probably break into pieces as you pull it, making it easier to get out.


Thank you and correct you were.










I see that the seal has a channel on the outer edge in one spot, that I assume is to help with removal. But was in no way any help with how hard and brittle this one was.

Next question... Does anyone know if they are the same dimensions as the Silva uses?? A guy locally has silicone ones for the Silvia on offer and I thought to maybe give them a try if the right size.


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## espressotechno

Sylvia group seal = 8x74x58mm. Standard Rancilio commercial seal = 8x74x58mm. Cafelat silicone seal, Green (Rancilio) = 8x74x58mm.

If your group heads are well worn then card (0.3mm) or rubber (0.5mm) shims may be necessary additions.


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## Joel.Sim

espressotechno said:


> Sylvia group seal = 8x74x58mm. Standard Rancilio commercial seal = 8x74x58mm. Cafelat silicone seal, Green (Rancilio) = 8x74x58mm.
> 
> If your group heads are well worn then card (0.3mm) or rubber (0.5mm) shims may be necessary additions.


Thank you for the info. I had searched before but not found the info.

Also handy to know the Cafelat bit. Just checked their website and as I expected the guy here is asking an extortionate price.

170kr for one.... So about $20 or £13...

Thanks again.


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## espressotechno

What a ripoff ! PM me for a price (I'll need to find the postage price to Norway....)


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## Joel.Sim

And over to the Brainstrust again...

Am I correct in thinking that I should only have two of these?? One on the right hand water connection of each group head??










I've either got one too many or one too few.

It seemed one of them was sitting loose in decorative casing around the left side group head, but I'm not 100% sure of that.

Cheers, Joel.


----------



## Joel.Sim

A vast improvement 




























Now to get it back together...

Figuring I'll leave the pf gaskets and shower screens out until the whole system is rinsed.


----------



## Joel.Sim

Ready to go live (I hope!?)

But it's gonna have to wait until tomorrow as the mini humans just got home from daycare..... (for the record the grumpy face is about having to wait, not that the kids are here, lol).














































Still not completely sure why this ball valve is here?? But I'm thinking it should be open?? It was shut when I gut the machine, but I took a guess that that was to stop the tank from emptying??


----------



## jeebsy

@funinacup made some suggestions what that was for on mine but can't remember. There were a few odd bits on the plumbing.

Interesting to see the small differences in how yours is laid out.

The clips for the screws on the frame - on mine the flat side faced away from you when looking at the machine - did yours come with the flat side facing you?


----------



## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> @funinacup made some suggestions what that was for on mine but can't remember. There were a few odd bits on the plumbing.
> 
> Interesting to see the small differences in how yours is laid out.
> 
> The clips for the screws on the frame - on mine the flat side faced away from you when looking at the machine - did yours come with the flat side facing you?


Yeah I'm pretty sure the clips are exactly as they were. I didn't take them off....

And yeah I guess there's always some small changes over the years even if the machines are essentially the same still.

I've not done anything fun or exciting with the panels.... But I wish I'd never seen the powder coating


----------



## jeebsy

Have to take some panels off to put the new solenoids on later so might try turning them round - the panels the wee bump does make the panels stick out slightly, but they all stick out so it evens itself up


----------



## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> Have to take some panels off to put the new solenoids on later so might try turning them round - the panels the wee bump does make the panels stick out slightly, but they all stick out so it evens itself up


Just ducked down to the basement and had a look and yes if you switch them around it should pull your panels in tighter. Less gaps for crud to get into too I'd be guessing, which can't be a bad thing.

Guess you'll be stripping pretty much all panels off then??

Don't know what's worse... Having to wait until tomorrow to fire it up or firing it up tonight and of course risking the probability of discovering problems that I in turn then think about all night!!!!????


----------



## jeebsy

If you can be bothered could you do an 'exploded view' of the inside of the steam wand that connects to the valve please? Not sure mine are right and would be good to compare


----------



## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> If you can be bothered could you do an 'exploded view' of the inside of the steam wand that connects to the valve please? Not sure mine are right and would be good to compare


Can do. Only had them off yesterday but didn't take pictures.

Are you meaning the spring, the little "seat" and then the wand itself??

If yes... Then it's spring first, then smaller section of the "seat" fitted into the spring and then ball if the steam wand fits into the concaved part of the "seat". And of course the nylon washer between the nut and the valve.

I'll take pics for you later.


----------



## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> If you can be bothered could you do an 'exploded view' of the inside of the steam wand that connects to the valve please? Not sure mine are right and would be good to compare


 @jeebsy: there you go


----------



## jeebsy

Not sure i've got the second bit....need to check tonight. Thanks!


----------



## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> Not sure i've got the second bit....need to check tonight. Thanks!


No worries.

Two questions...

1: Was the advice you were given, regarding the ball valve I had a picture of, to have it open??

2: When you've been starting the machine up from an empty boiler and using a bottle/reservoir how long does it take to fill??

Just went live and all lights were flashing and the pump started but doesn't seem it's going to fill. Now comes the, bollocks do I need a new pump question....


----------



## jeebsy

I think the ball valve might be related to the drain, ie if you wanted to drain the boiler you'd close that tap first. I can't remember what position mine is just now.

Have you got a sight glass/can you tell from that if the boiler is filling? Mine sucked up most of a 5l bottle before stopping, thought it was going to keep going forever.


----------



## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> I think the ball valve might be related to the drain, ie if you wanted to drain the boiler you'd close that tap first. I can't remember what position mine is just now.
> 
> Have you got a sight glass/can you tell from that if the boiler is filling? Mine sucked up most of a 5l bottle before stopping, thought it was going to keep going forever.


Ok.

I'll leave it open for now and see what happens.

Nope to a sight glass. My main concern is that it doesn't seem to be filling, not that it's not going to stop filling, lol.


----------



## jeebsy

So the pump starts to auto fill, does it suck water?


----------



## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> So the pump starts to auto fill, does it suck water?


Sounds like it trying, but not succeeding. Just took the water house out of the bottle and stuck my finger on the end (very technical test, I know). There seems to be at least a little bit of pull from the pump.


----------



## jeebsy

Can you tell from the level in your bucket/bottle if it's pulling it?


----------



## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> Can you tell from the level in your bucket/bottle if it's pulling it?


Pulls a little bit and then stops.

I'll pull all supply hoses off after lunch and check for blockages.

I had just removed the main supply hose and strangely it sounded like it was either drawing or releasing air as I done it!?


----------



## Joel.Sim

Oh dear... Rookie mistake with something I didn't think to check...

This is from where the water supply hooks on. Couldn't even blow air through it, so it's no wonder water wouldn't make it:




























Time for a quick bit of cleaning and then put it back together and see what happens.


----------



## jeebsy

Feel a bit sick looking at that...what is it? Where's it from exactly?


----------



## Joel.Sim

And now I go into a new holding pattern while the machine dries out.

The good news:

* The pump works just fine after removing that blockage.

The other news:

It filled for a while and then stopped, but in my mind it can't have been full.

I then thought I'd try and pull some water through the group before turning the element on. Pressing the pause/free pour button it started filling again but nothing came out of the group and then I guess the boiler was full as the opv let loose and sprayed water everywhere.

This leaves me some what concerned about the water level auto shut off and of course sitting around waiting (probably until Monday) for any electrics that got sprayed to dry out before I can try again.

This also makes me wonder... Was it a bad idea to try and pull water through it before it had heated up?? Would that have caused the overfill and water feature??


----------



## Dylan

Did you remove the water level probe when descaling? A badly scaled probe can stop it working.

The probe connects to ground through the water and via the boiler wall. So ensure there is a ground wire connected to the bodywork/boiler somewhere.

You can test if the water level probe is working by shorting the exposed metal bit where it protrudes from the boiler to ground, this should stop the water fill.

You will also need to drain the boiler below its fill level


----------



## jeebsy

You can use a hairdryer to expedite the drying process.

Think a 5l boiler will take about 3l of water up.

You can run water through the groups when it's cold, that shouldn't have caused an issue.


----------



## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> Feel a bit sick looking at that...what is it? Where's it from exactly?


Haha... Yeah not exactly pleasant hey.

It appears to be a filter of sorts which is inside the fitting where the water supply attaches to. I've left it out at the moment.

Ok, if it would only take in around 3ltrs that would make sense as to why it stopped filling the first time. It doesn't explain why it overfilled when attempting to run water through the group.

Is the fill probe the green wire in the middle here??


----------



## jeebsy

No, the full probe is on top of the boiler. The green one in the middle is the thermal overload/element protector - the one you need to be careful with!


----------



## jeebsy

View attachment 15829


One mine the middle is the probe and the second from the right is the autofill, that should have a red wire connected to it


----------



## Joel.Sim

Oh and I still don't completely understand the water path/logic of this machine. Trying to empty the boiler takes an age and if I'm following it correctly it seems it has to make it's way back out via the pump which makes no sense.


----------



## jeebsy

You'll need to drain it manually or let it come up to temp and drain it with the hot water wand.


----------



## Dylan

You can pop off the water level probe to check it and then just pop a pipe into the boiler and use suction to set a flow going, that was the easiest way with mine, but may not be on one of these beasts.

Edit: Jeebsy - He cant if its overfull I dont think.


----------



## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> View attachment 15829
> 
> 
> One mine the middle is the probe and the second from the right is the autofill, that should have a red wire connected to it


That makes way more sense and is what I initially thought.

Hmmm... Your opv has a cover around it... That's smart.


----------



## jeebsy

Correction....level probe (middle) is the autofill and the one that should have the wire, the one to the right of it is the ghost of the antivac that was on there.

@Dylan - mine overfilled, i took some water out it manually but the engineer who checked it drained the rest by using the water tap. He noticed it was still far too full because the steam was really wet. Might not be advisable if the boiler is full to the brim though?


----------



## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> You'll need to drain it manually or let it come up to temp and drain it with the hot water wand.


Aha... So this is one of those times where reading the manual is a bad idea 

I'll crack it open later and syphon it.

Red alert for the arrival of mini humans now though... So again it waits.

Very much appreciate the help lads.


----------



## jeebsy

Mine has a drain valve at the front of the machine (comes out the left of the boiler) but might be different as it's the compact


----------



## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> Mine has a drain valve at the front of the machine (comes out the left of the boiler) but might be different as it's the compact


Mine is a compact too, but I've not seen anything that screams "drain valve".

I'll check again later.


----------



## jeebsy

View attachment 15834


----------



## jeebsy

The silicone tube at the bottom right....follow that back. The silver connection to the copper pipe unscrews to drain but it's a terrible design, so awkward.


----------



## Joel.Sim

Yep I had just found it.

I misunderstood the drawing in the manual (as, to be fair it was rather poorly illustrated.)

Thank you once more.


----------



## jeebsy

It didn't appear to be in the manual when I was trying to work out what it did


----------



## espressotechno

The Classe6 parts manual is to be read with caution ! Machine parts seem to vary in specification/existence from year to year. Rancilio UK parts dept. are also very slow in replying to emailed enquiries...


----------



## Joel.Sim

Now that I know it makes perfect sense. But looking at the picture and where they are on the machine it always seemed to me that it was the water supply connection, which made no sense at all....


----------



## jeebsy

Aha....


----------



## Joel.Sim

Any thoughts or wisdom as to what to troubleshoot as far as water not coming out of the group even though it sounds like it's trying, which in turn lead to the boiler overfilling??

It developed a small leak in the water in side of the group so water made it that far.

I didn't have the shower screens or screws in... I can't imagine that the screw activates a little valve inside the group or anything of that sort!?!? I'm guessing that would be overly complicated and troublesome.


----------



## El carajillo

Are the solenoids clear and working ? ( and valves )


----------



## Joel.Sim

El carajillo said:


> Are the solenoids clear and working ?


Not entirely sure how to check if they're working, but I'll check again that they're clear..


----------



## jeebsy

Solenoids on right way round?


----------



## jeebsy

Water for the groups doesn't come from the boiler which is a bit weird. Have you connected the autofill sensor?. Hx pipes in alright?


----------



## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> Solenoids on right way round?


I don't believe I've changed the way they were. But I also don't know which is the right or which is the wrong way.

I've just opened up the boiler and filled it to the brim for descaling... So back to it tomorrow once again.


----------



## Dylan

There is one pump that feeds both the boiler and HX system. If you are activating the HX system (the group) and the boiler is getting filled then this would suggest to me that the part of the system that directs the water to the HX or the boiler is stuck just feeding the boiler.

As the water fill sensor only cuts the water flow when the boiler is being fed this would explain why it is not cutting the flow when you are trying to feed the group but it is infact going to the boiler.

Edit: just realised this is, of course, the solenoid/s I'm talking about which is exactly what was suggested above.


----------



## Joel.Sim

Dylan said:


> This is just a stab in the dark, but bare with me here...
> 
> There is one pump that feeds both the boiler and HX system. If you are activating the HX system (the group) and the boiler is getting filled then this would suggest to me that the part of the system that directs the water to the HX or the boiler is stuck just feeding the boiler.
> 
> As the water fill sensor only cuts the water flow when the boiler is being fed this would explain why it is not cutting the flow when you are trying to feed the group but it is infact going to the boiler.


That's a pretty valid thought.

Hopefully I get time tomorrow to check it out.

Also have a meeting for possible roastery location tomorrow, so not sure how much time I'll get.


----------



## El carajillo

In your very first photograph there are two black box objects with stems pointing downwards, either side and above the cylinder drain tube & nut.

They appear to be well crudded up, these are solenoid valves , check and clean.


----------



## Dylan

@El carajillo

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but these solenoids you can see in the very first pic control the 'automatic' e61 group (i.e. without a e61 lever), there should be another solenoid (or two) that control the split after the pump between the HX and the boiler.

If you follow the exit of the pump, the first thing it goes into should be a solenoid controlled junction.

This is how my machine operates at least (I can see the other solenoid)

All that said, if that first pic does show clogged up solenoids and these should absolutely be inspected and cleaned.


----------



## Dylan

Can be seen here


----------



## El carajillo

You are correct ,there is at least one other solenoid valve, boiler fill control solenoid. I was commenting on what I could see Ie that the group solenoid valves where very corroded and possibly seized up which would prevent the passage of water. From the appearance of the machine it seems a little pointless trying to run it when it is clearly in need of a total strip down and blockages / problems could be anywhere in the machine.


----------



## Dylan

El carajillo said:


> You are correct ,there is at least one other solenoid valve, boiler fill control solenoid. I was commenting on what I could see Ie that the group solenoid valves where very corroded and possibly seized up which would prevent the passage of water. From the appearance of the machine it seems a little pointless trying to run it when it is clearly in need of a total strip down and blockages / problems could be anywhere in the machine.


Absolutely, hopefully this got cleaned by Joel during the rest of the strip down, but if not it would be silly to have the machine in bits and not fully clean all pipework and fittings.


----------



## Joel.Sim

El carajillo said:


> In your very first photograph there are two black box objects with stems pointing downwards, either side and above the cylinder drain tube & nut.
> 
> They appear to be well crudded up, these are solenoid valves , check and clean.


Those have indeed been cleaned since that very first picture was taken. I also took them off earlier today and checked once more. Clean and no problem to blow air through.


----------



## Dylan

did you find/check the internal solenoid/s?


----------



## El carajillo

Can you feel the solenoids click when you operate the switch /lever, if not could be electrical part sticking. Can you apply voltage to each individual solenoid to check for movement ?


----------



## jeebsy

Run it in test mode and you can activate each solenoid using the touchpads without risking water going places it shouldn't, instructions in the manual and inside the left panel


----------



## Joel.Sim

Dylan said:


> did you find/check the internal solenoid/s?


Haven't had a chance. Been building my sister in-laws bathroom all day... Lovely thing to spend a Sunday doing.



El carajillo said:


> Can you feel the solenoids click when you operate the switch /lever, if not could be electrical part sticking. Can you apply voltage to each individual solenoid to check for movement ?


I'll check that out next time I get to spend some quality time with it.



jeebsy said:


> Run it in test mode and you can activate each solenoid using the touchpads without risking water going places it shouldn't, instructions in the manual and inside the left panel


That sounds like a smart plan. I'll look into that for sure.


----------



## Joel.Sim

Hmmm.... Test mode instructions not on the panel and I've not found it in the manual.


----------



## jeebsy

I'm taking a half day due to (central heating) boiler issues, can post them up in a couple of hours


----------



## Joel.Sim

Awesome. Cheers.


----------



## salty dog

Sorry can't help you much with the problems, but hey! following the latest installment is almost as good as telly!


----------



## jeebsy

View attachment 15886


----------



## jeebsy

If you need a hi-res version PM me your email


----------



## Joel.Sim

Cheers for that.

If it's not too much of a pain can you take a picture of the second table only??

Can't read it when zooming in ?

Which manual is that out of??


----------



## jeebsy

This is the one from inside the machine:

  IMAG2123 by wjheenan, on Flickr


----------



## Joel.Sim

That would've been nice to have... Cheers again.

The one you've got in the folder/binder, was that something you downloaded from somewhere??


----------



## Joel.Sim

Bugger.... Took me a while to get there, but I've now landed on that I'm pretty sure auto test isn't SB option for me.

Found the manual you have, @jeebsy, and have discovered that as my machine is a couple of years older, it doesn't have the "smart" board with the little display on it....


----------



## jeebsy

I assumed yours was newer as it looked a little better laid out. That's a pain.


----------



## jeebsy

The manual says the tap valve is a 'rapid fill tap' btw










@espressotechno - this is the type of pump/tee valve you were talking about then?


----------



## Joel.Sim

0606 

Bit strange if they went backwards in logic regarding layout, but...

Still some questionable decisions on this one.... This is one of my favourites, zoom in and check out the location of the pipe to the right of the fill sensor.


----------



## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> The manual says the tap valve is a 'rapid fill tap' btw
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @espressotechno - this is the type of pump/tee valve you were talking about then?


First image isn't showing, but I'm guessing it's the ball valve I asked about??

I've no idea what your asking espressotechno about here. Something I've missed somewhere??


----------



## jeebsy

There's only one image - the ball valve is the one at the front we were talking about the other day

Yeah those pipes are annoying - working out what way to put stuff back on can be really annoying....


----------



## El carajillo

If E/T said it is rapid fill it is probably to bypass the pump when commissioning and fill the boiler directly ?


----------



## Joel.Sim

Haha.. Ok. It was just showing up as though there was an image missing. But at least we were on the same page as to what you meant.

That's an interesting thought El Carajillo... And sounds a bit logical too. That said the pump fills it pretty darn quick. But of course you could then fill without the machine turned on.

Maybe that ball valve should be closed most of the time then!?!?


----------



## jeebsy

Joel.Sim said:


> I've no idea what your asking espressotechno about here. Something I've missed somewhere??


I bought a new pump - the old one had a connection for the manometer built into the pump, but the new one didn't - espressotechno said his classe 6 came with a tee piece to connect the manometer, which i've just seen on your photo


----------



## Joel.Sim

Ah I see.


----------



## Joel.Sim

About how long does your machine take to warm up @jeebsy??


----------



## jeebsy

With one of the heating loops disconnected, a while. 15-25 mins for the anti vac to pop depending on ambient temp then maybe another 15-20 minutes for it to stablise. I'll be testing it tonight/tomorrow so will time it properly then.


----------



## Joel.Sim

As Scooby Doo would say.... Ruh roh.....

Had it on with all loops connected yesterday and after about 10 mins there was no noticeable difference when feeling the boiler.


----------



## jeebsy

You should hear it starting to heat up almost instantly (if you're in a quiet room) and it should get warm to touch within a few minutes. I use the hearing test mainly as the panels are always on at the market, must look weird to others when i keep cuddling the machine and putting my ear against the top every few minutes to see how its doing (a bit like they do with the sick Triceratops in Jurassic Park)


----------



## Joel.Sim

More testing... I was quite sure we tested the element when my electro mate was here and concluded that it should be fine.

Haha... Yes the espresso machine cuddling would likely draw some amusing reactions.


----------



## Joel.Sim

And a few steps backwards...

Figured I'd pull the element again and check it out and then since I could still see some floaties in the boiler after it's last acid soak... I've just pulled the boiler out completely. Like I probably should've at the start.


----------



## espressotechno

Yup Jeebsy, that's my Classe6 setup in your pic: T piece with 1/8"F capillary tube connector.

Yor new pumphead will have the T with 1/8"M capllary tube connector. Methinks you have either an older machine or a "Friday afternoon" machine.....


----------



## jeebsy

Its a different model, flowmeters and pipes are routed differently. I reckon it's better, much more simple than all that messing about with tee pieces...


----------



## Joel.Sim

Checked resistance in the element and all seems good. Solid 55's...

Now to display my lack of knowledge some more....

When we had tested resistance while all cables were attached we got solid 36's... Does that make sense??


----------



## Joel.Sim

And still waiting on my electro-mate to drop in and have a look at this one...

Given that the resistance on the element seems fine and so on. Has anyone any other ideas what I can test in the meantime to try and figure out why this is not heating up??

Cheers,

Joel.


----------



## espressotechno

* Check the overheat sensor (capillary tube) hasn't tripped: Push the red (or blue) button on the terminal block hard to ensure it's "on".

* Disconnect the boiler temperature sensor (grey/black wiring to plug on pcb) & see what happens.....


----------



## Joel.Sim

Thanks for the ideas. I'll give them a go and report back.

I also noticed when researching parts that the overheat sensor is listed as a 3 phase 169°c sensor. Given that I've rewired to single phase, is there anything there to consider??

Cheers,

Joel.


----------



## espressotechno

No - it just means that all 3 mains wires ( live, neutral, earth) are connected to the terminal block. Just check the button.


----------



## Joel.Sim

Thanks for clearing that up.

I have tried the button before with no result. But, just how hard is "hard" when pressing it?? It seems like it's got next to no movement to it.

Cheers again.


----------



## Joel.Sim

No result from those tests 

Should there be any physical or audible response when pushing said button??

Now I'm also a touch rusty on my electrical/multimeter skills... So when testing the element when it's powered up... Testing one connection point (on the element) and the other to earth, should that be reading 220/230v??

Cheers,

Joel.


----------



## jeebsy

Edit: I don't know about testing it when it spowered up, forget this


----------



## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> Edit: I don't know about testing it when it spowered up, forget this


Haha... I can easily forget that which I didn't even get to read.

I'm guessing you deemed it irrelevant.

Cheers anyway.


----------



## jeebsy

I tested the element with it completely disconnected for continuity through the loops I think (which is what I posted about) only saw after you were talking about testing it while powered, which I didn't do


----------



## Joel.Sim

I guessed that may have been what you wrote.

I tested it while it was out too and resistance was good in each loop and nothing back to earth..

So I kinda concluded that the element is good. So I'm really at a loss right now.

Roaster should be arriving next week, so I kinda hoped to have this one buttoned up before that arrives. But everything is putting up a good battle, lol.


----------



## Joel.Sim

And sadly the battle continues....

Still not heating up.

And it seems my hot water button has died too. It no longer has a light or does anything...

When switching it on all of the volumetric buttons light up and cycle left to right. While this is happening there is two red lights on the circuit board (see picture) and the volumetric buttons work and deliver water. After some time the lights stop cycling and are constantly on, but the two red lights on the circuit board are extinguished.










Anyone got any ideas/thoughts on this??

Also I just thought I'd ask (even though I'm guessing the answer is no)... On the circuit board you can see that there are two separate sockets to the bottom left 3VN & 3V... As of now it's plugged into the right hand 3V socket. Is there any reason for that to be switched to the 3VN?? (I only ask with the thought in my mind that I switched it from 3 to single phase...)










Really looking forward to one day getting a coffee out of this machine, lol.

Cheers,

Joel.


----------



## jeebsy

Hot water only works when it is up to temp/pressure so don't worry about that for now


----------



## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> Hot water only works when it is up to temp/pressure so don't worry about that for now


The light as well??

I was sure I ran water through that the very first time I fired it up and the boiler overfilled!?!?

But yeah either way it's definitely not my main concern.


----------



## grumpydaddy

This tends to suggest the 3VN connection for 3ph to heater element. It might be interesting to measure volts on 3V connector.

Not been following thread for a while so I am unclear how you powered this.... is it running just one or two heaters?


----------



## Joel.Sim

Hmmmmm... I'll have to put the meter on it tomorrow and see.

Interestingly it was wired for 3 phase when I bought it and I've not changed anything on the circuit board, so it's always been connected to 3V.

I'll have a look through the rest of the drawings too.

It's running one heater with 3 loops in the heater.


----------



## Brewer in training

TURN OFFER THE POWER AND UNPLUG THE MACHINE.

That bits quite important!

Can you see the connectors to the heating elements?

If so, set you multimeter to ac voltage, insert red probe into a connector and put the other to earth....

Then plug in & turn on.

If there is no voltage at the element it has no power getting to it.

If the voltage is less than mains (230v) it may indicate a poor connection or wiring fault.

Have you checked all the fuses?

Did you put all the wiring connectors back in the correct places?

My heating element is powered from a pressure switch........ One of the contacts had corroded which meant it wasn't working......... 5mins with a nylon scrubber and bingo, working element.......

Hth


----------



## grumpydaddy

without a detailed circuit diagram I would be expecting 3VN to be 3 voltages and Neutral and the 3V to be 3 voltages or in other words one has the heaters wired in star the other in delta.

In 240v use I would expect 3VN to be used. The rest of the machine seems to run off 240v (Line 1) looking at that diagram.

Depending on how you wired the incoming power for single phase, if the heaters are wired in delta there will be no complete circuit.

*BUT !!!* before committing to changes remember..... This is just my educated guess.....* Check for those voltages first !!*

*
*

If this assumption is correct then expect to find 3 pins of the six in the 3VN socket connected to Neutral and one of the others should be live (assuming you did not strap the L1,L2,L3 together where the mains enters the machine EDIT: If you did the 3 lives and 3 neutrals)


----------



## Joel.Sim

Ok. I'll hopefully get some time with it tomorrow with some fresh eyes and run these tests.

For what it's worth @grumpydaddy L1, L2 & L3 were/are linked with jumpers from when I switched to single phase (as per manufacturer instructions. Jumpers supplied with machine and all).

I have been wondering as to the wiring on the element. That I've put back exactly as it was when I got it.


----------



## Joel.Sim




----------



## Joel.Sim

Ok sorry about that last post, but I had to.

Thank you to you good forum folk and that bit of logical thinking.

Sure enough switching to the 3VN socket on the circuit board did the trick. The meter readings from it correlated much better with mains in readings.















It's got a bit of a constant leak from the right hand group solenoid which I now have to address. And a couple of other small leaks which I already knew about and then I think I get to put it back together 










All these months waiting for a mate to drop in and all it needed was that plug moved.... Ridiculous...

Thanks once again and I'll update once leaks are sorted and I go into proper testing with it.

Cheers,

Joel.


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## grumpydaddy

That put a smile on my face








If you have the capability, it might be worth knowing what the power draw is.

It will depend on those three heater elements of course and how many are still in circuit. Simplest is to get one of the British style Kill-a-Watt clones as not only can you see the instantaneous power, current or voltage readings for what ever is plugged in but most have a type of running total function so you can calculate what it costs to run a machine.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electricity-Power-Energy-Monitor-Meter-KWH-Watt-NEW-/252150890486?hash=item3ab55d3ff6:g:zVYAAOSwA4dWNT4Y is the one I use

Beware though as they use a 13a socket they are limited to around 3Kw Max..... If it is more than that, don't leave it plugged in too long


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## Joel.Sim

It put a pretty big smile on my face too, I must say.

I may keep my eye out for a similar measuring device. But yeah it might fry that particular one.

3kw in elements and a 5ltr boiler though... It heats up nice and quick.










Plan is that it'll have a dedicated (or mostly dedicated) 16amp circuit. But if that gets a bit dicey I can switch it back to 3 phase, as that's easily accessible at the roastery location  Or of course I can disconnect one loop of the element.


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## grumpydaddy

3160w is only a tad over 13a on a 240v supply. it would probably make a 13a plug and socket pretty warm but on a 16a circuit you will be absolutely fine.

Another choice, especially for folks using higher powered machines and needing monitoring would be the Owl monitor.

I use this one for its usb link up to my computer. software is a bit amateur but it mostly gets the job done. You could do your whole house with this one as it uses a current transformer hooked up to a wireless transmitter which sends to a separate display unit and that in turn can use the usb link to a pc

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Owl-CM160-USB-Wireless-Electricity-Electric-Energy-Monitor-Smart-Meter-/121087391648?hash=item1c315ef7a0:m:mxGwGestzYhFJVAdZjNkTXA

just thinking aloud here. You don't need either based on the above post


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## Joel.Sim

That looks like an interesting little "gadget". Could be interesting to hook up to our Simonelli home machine and see what it draws throughout the day.

Guessing I'd have to check for a different model (if it exists), as I'm guessing they are UK sockets on those ones!?


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## espressotechno

The Classe6 compact (5litre) with the 3160w element will run quite happily on 230v/13amp plug-in. No need for 3 phase....

All 3 element loops should be wired in parallel.


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## Joel.Sim

Thanks for that. Nice to not have to run 3 phase for sure. Had always kinda landed on that it would be happy on a 16amp circuit as planned.

I think we had the wiring of the element discussion one time before!? One colour wire per element basically!?!?

It's like this now...



















And yes, I need to get some new sleeves over those cable shoes.


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## grumpydaddy

The Kill-a-Watt is available in USA, UK and EU (shuko) versions for sure

The Owl will work anywhere (runs on batteries)


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## Brewer in training

Glad you sorted it mate.... Sometimes a fresh pair of eyes is all it takes.... And we've all overlooked the glaringly obvious... Even if we don't admit it!


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## Joel.Sim

Oh... And @jeebsy.... The hot water button is functioning 

Definitely want to get my hands on one of the little cups for around the opv on top of the boiler same as your's too. Strange that it doesn't have one!!


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## jeebsy

espressotechno said:


> The Classe6 compact (5litre) with the 3160w element will run quite happily on 230v/13amp plug-in. No need for 3 phase....
> 
> All 3 element loops should be wired in parallel.


Mine is fine on two 90% of the time but if the boiler does a big refill during a service the pressure can drop quite a bit while it reheats. It's annoying but dunno if it's worth paying £500 to get it fixed annoying



Joel.Sim said:


> Oh... And @jeebsy.... The hot water button is functioning
> 
> Definitely want to get my hands on one of the little cups for around the opv on top of the boiler same as your's too. Strange that it doesn't have one!!


Glad you got it sorted, sometimes it's the most simple things! If you can get the parts number for it i should be able to get you one. I'll try to check it when i've got a minute


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## Joel.Sim

jeebsy said:


> Mine is fine on two 90% of the time but if the boiler does a big refill during a service the pressure can drop quite a bit while it reheats. It's annoying but dunno if it's worth paying £500 to get it fixed annoying
> 
> Glad you got it sorted, sometimes it's the most simple things! If you can get the parts number for it i should be able to get you one. I'll try to check it when i've got a minute


£500 to get it fixed??!

I'll do a bit of a search for the part number, but you certainly don't have to chase around to get it.

Is there someone in the UK supplying that sort of part?? Once again I can't find anyone dealing with that in Norway


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## jeebsy

Yeah mine needs a new board, it runs fine as is but not optimally. I'll look for that part when I get into work, have been spending all my time in work looking arty second hand cars anyway


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## Joel.Sim

Ahhhh... That sucks about the new board!!

Haha... I can think of worse ways to spend the day than looking at old cars. You going to build a coffee car??


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## Dylan

For £500 I would look on ebay for another £60 machine Jeebsy and hope you get a good board.


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## Joel.Sim

@jeebsy I've just noticed that my memory served my wrongly...

I see here that that "cup" is around your safety valve (as it's called in the manual-VS)










I was actually thinking of something around the antivacuum valve (VA), since it hisses a little on each initial startup...

A little like this on our Simonelli










Just remembered the Simonelli has something around both too










Probably still smart to get one around the safety valve either way.


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## jeebsy

It's 38123947 DRAIN TANK SECURITY VALVE. Looks to be about £16+postage but would be special order. One of those smalls cups like in your more recent pics might be better.

I'm not building a coffee car but i'm amassing more and more gear and fitting it in a Mini is getting tricky (and it's getting scratched up with the constant loading an unloading). Looking at 2002-2005 A4 estates.


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## Joel.Sim

Cool. Thanks heaps for checking that out.

I'll assess if I can customise something else to do the job first and go from there.

Yeah I can see that a mini would be rather full with all your equipment in it.


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## Joel.Sim

Well... A cracked spring will most likely be the cause of the constant leak from under the solenoid on the right group head 










No less than 3 cracks in the spring in fact


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## Joel.Sim

And finally some spare time to get back to it again.

New solenoid in house and installed and so far leak free.

Max. Amps it pulled while heating up:










Max. Watts:










Bottom number is just after the element switched off for the first time and that was counting from when it was turned on to fill. Was about -8°c out here this morning so water temp is rather chilly too:










Now to duck up to the roastery and collect a drill (I've got 3 and every one of them is there  ) so I can drill out the discs(forget their proper name right now) in the group heads to make space for countersunk screws and new IMS showerscreens.


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## espressotechno

There are a few companies around which repair PCBs.

I have used Vendparts in Skipton to repair a few espresso machines with dead PCBs. Cost is under £100.


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## Joel.Sim

espressotechno said:


> There are a few companies around which repair PCBs.
> 
> I have used Vendparts in Skipton to repair a few espresso machines with dead PCBs. Cost is under £100.


Very handy to know.

But I'm confused... Did you notice an issue that I've not noticed??


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## aaroncornish

Joel.Sim said:


>


I thought an Anslut was something else... carry on


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## Joel.Sim

aaroncornish said:


> I thought an Anslut was something else... carry on


Such as a not very nice thing to call someone or???


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## aaroncornish

Joel.Sim said:


> Such as a not very nice thing to call someone or???


No comment....

On a more serious note. Progress is looking really good on this machine! Have you decided if you are going to do a Jeebsy and get it powder coated


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## Joel.Sim

aaroncornish said:


> No comment....
> 
> On a more serious note. Progress is looking really good on this machine! Have you decided if you are going to do a Jeebsy and get it powder coated


Haha.... Fair enough.

Yeah it's finally coming together. No flashy Jeebsy powder coating or anything at this time. Just planning to get it up and running and back together at the moment. After a little while I'll see about a change. See how it blends in at the roastery first too


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## Joel.Sim

Countersunk, screws shortened (since I couldn't find the right length), showerscreens moulded into countersinking



















Much better than the Frankenbolts!!


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## froggystyle

How you getting on with this @Joel.Sim


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## Joel.Sim

froggystyle said:


> How you getting on with this @Joel.Sim


Hi.

Actually I pretty much just need to test the volumetrics and then put the (veryboringcomparedto @jeebsy)panels back on.

Been away in Oz for 3 weeks and then trying to finalise roaster installation since being back, so this one's been on the back burner. Always niggling at the back of my mind though...

More updates soon.


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## froggystyle

Ahhh your the jolly roaster...


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## Joel.Sim

And together it is  



















My gas guy should come tomorrow to calibrate the burner on my roaster. So this and the EK will make their way to the roastery tomorrow as there will be no doubt MANY kilos of coffee to use (from me getting to know the new roaster) for testing this machine


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## GCGlasgow

Nice work, i'm always impressed when someone completes a job like this. Must be satisfying.


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## Joel.Sim

GCGlasgow said:


> Nice work, i'm always impressed when someone completes a job like this. Must be satisfying.


Cheers.

Bit of a long haul, but indeed satisfying. Now just to hope that it keeps running for some time without the need for anymore big fixes.

And all that with only two screws left over. One of which I lost today and can't find again. Plus I think both of them are only for holding the top panel.


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## Joel.Sim

Not their final resting place, but sort of. Just need to build another bench along the wall yet to give some more space and setup pour over and Brazen when I eventually get one/some over here.


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## hotmetal

Great restoration and that is one awesome "coffee chamber" you have there for the want of a better word.


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## Joel.Sim

hotmetal said:


> Great restoration and that is one awesome "coffee chamber" you have there for the want of a better word.


Haha cheers.

The "chamber", much like the Rancilio did, is going through a "make over"...

Soon some fresh paint for the room and then various display benches, etc which I'm yet to build from recycled pallets and so on... All in between roasting and packing and marketing, blah, blah, blah....


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## aaroncornish

Great work Joel!! Lots of fun lies ahead with all of that kit


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## Joel.Sim

And just because I felt like showing it's final resting place...










And it's company....










Good weekend to all.


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## Mr.Bean

Made a newbie comment, but still haven't figured out how to delete my comments.


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## Mr.Bean

Joel.Sim said:


> Still not completely sure why this ball valve is here?? But I'm thinking it should be open?? It was shut when I gut the machine, but I took a guess that that was to stop the tank from emptying??


In case you didn't get a reply. That ball valve is for doing manual filling of the tank. Basically it bypasses the inlet water solenoid valve. As long as the inlet water pressure is higher than the pressure in the tank, it will fill even if the pump isn't running.


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