# New member - Rocket Appartemento & Eureka S. - Questions regarding recipe



## trbo91 (Mar 7, 2021)

Hi everyone,

I have been a silent reader here for a while and now that my machine arrived, I thought I'd sign up and become a part of the community. I went with a Rocket Apartemento Serie Nera and a Eureka Mignon Specialita Grinder.

I am using the Resolute Beans from origin at the moment and brew with Tesco Ashbeck Water as I do not want to ruin my machine with central London tap water.

At the moment, I am really in the learning process and would appreciate some help. I have read a lot here before but something confuses me as a newbie. I have been constantly grinding 18g of coffee and use the double 58mm portafilter that came with my rocket.

What does not make sense to me though is that for 18g, most of the internet suggests an extraction time between 20-30 seconds for 30g of coffee, while the manual of my Rocket says 60g/ ml in the same time. If I would extract only 30g, this would literally only take like 15 seconds. Any idea here or what is the output amount I should aim for with the rocket 30g or 60g?

I have been playing around a lot and now got to the point where I extract 60g with 18g in 23 seconds (+ 3-6 seconds pre infusion), not there but close. I do start the timer once the espresso stars flowing, hope this is not the mistake I am making.

As a newbie and infrequent pure espresso drinker (usually flat whites) I cannot really tell if the shot tastes bitter or sour but it is certainly a bit off from where it should be. Nevertheless, it is much better that the first one I pulled, so there is a learning curve.

What also surprised me is that even though the shot on its own was off a little bit, I made a flat white I really liked with the exact same recipe. I mostly drink flat whites anyway but I want to get the shot itself as good as I can.

Lastly, I got a couple of different beans from several roasters I have access to. To what extent do different beans with the same circumstance (grinder setting, amount of coffee, amount of output) produce different results. Do I need to adjust the recipe/ my gear each time or does switching beans usually work without major adjustments?

Just out of curiosity to the people who reply do you stick to the same beans once you fund a good recipe or do you switch them around frequently? What is a good way for a beginner?

Looking forward to your replies and to contribute here in the future.

Best regards,
trbo

Edit: I tried to upload a picture of my setup - Is it not possible to upload something from my computer?


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## trbo91 (Mar 7, 2021)

Is this maybe the wrong forum for this post? Sorry if thisbis the case


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Welcome to the forum. Ratios are often something that confuse newbies. Whatever, you do, be guided by how it tastes. If you enjoy what you have brewed, that's all that matters.

That said, for an 18grm dose, a good ballpark is to aim for a 1:2 ratio - 36grms out in around 25-30secs. These variable are not set in stone but are a good place to begin. Don't change the dose and time variables until you are happy with the shots you are producing - just adjust the grind accordingly to extend or reduce total extraction time including PI time. There is a tempation to adjust everything at the same time but that only adds confusion. Change only one variable at a time.

Different beans will require dialling in when rested. You will also find that you may have to grind finer as the beans age. That's normal. It's best to stick with one bean and get to know how it behaves at different levels of extraction - ristretto, normale and lungo. Ratios for these are around 1:1 to 1:1.5 for a ristretto, around 1:2 for a normale and 1:3 for a lungo.

You haven't mentioned roast level of beans you are working with. Let us know.

Uploading pictures is very easy. You can just drag and drop them into a post you are creating. Or click on the 'choose file' at the bottom of each new post and navigate to the desired picture(s).


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## Nleng (Sep 30, 2020)

My advice would be:

Always start your shot timer from the moment you run the pump. This allows you to take into account any pre-infusion time. For a standard shot I usually get my first drip around the 7-8 second mark. If it's much below or over this mark I've likely botched my basket prep.

Systemic is right that you only need to adjust your grind setting to modify the extraction time. Other factors play a part but grind size is best variable to change.

You'll likely need to make adjustments when using different types of beans. Temperature, grind size, even dose and extraction ratio might change. That said, you will find beans of a similar roast level, blend composition etc will optimally brew within similar parameters. Over time you'll develop a ballpark or starting parameters based on what worked for a similar bean in the past.

I'm still new to this and experimenting with different beans. Once I've found a favourite I might brew it more often but with so much variety out there I will definitely keep trying different beans.

The specialita is a great grinder. However, it will retain some grinds so I'd advise cleaning it out every time you change bean to keep the flavour pure.

Welcome to the forum, let us know how you get on!


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## trbo91 (Mar 7, 2021)

Hey, thanks for your reply.

I tried to drag and drop the picture but it wont let me. I also do not have a choose file option, only "Insert image from URL". Do I maybe need a certain amount of posts in order to be able to upload pictures?

I use the Aguacate Beans from Origin at the moment and really started to enjoy them as soon as I was able to pull some decent shots. I managed 36g in 30seconds now from 18g of coffee and really enjoyed it. Unfortunately, the beans are sold out everywhere at the minute so I have to switch to some other ones once the bag is empty.

Regarding the roast level, where can I find that information? Here is also a link to the beans, even though I bough them from a local shop, just for the roast level information https://www.gustatory.co/products/origin-aguacate-1


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Origin offerings are lighter roasts so if you enjoy them, there's your benchmark. If you are not sure - ask on the forum.

The 'choose file' option is shown here


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## trbo91 (Mar 7, 2021)

Hi NIeng,

thanks for your reply.

Do you mean by cleaning the grinder screwing it up every time I change my beans? Wont this affect warranty or so if I open it up completely every time and that the screws maybe wear out?

So the last shot I pulled was 18g into 36 in 25, PI not counted thought. Would you recommend starting over again and counting PI as well?

Shot was quite decent in a flat white though.

I also managed to add a picture of my setup 

Thanks everyone much appreciated


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## Nleng (Sep 30, 2020)

trbo91 said:


> Hi NIeng,
> 
> thanks for your reply.
> 
> ...


 Nice looking setup! The Rocket looks great, almost makes me wish I'd gone for an E-61 machine.

The cleaning shouldn't affect the warranty. If anything I think cleaning is considered essential good practice to ensure the longevity of your machine.

When I clean the specialita I will:

- Remove the hopper. I never adjusted the hopper screw as I found the hopper was secure enough on it's own. I would either rinse or brush clean.

- Turn the machine away from you and pull off the Eureka badge from the back of the machine to expose the lid screw. Once this screw is removed you can easily pull and lift the too panel. (It might be slightly stiff the first time, just be gentle and don't force anything).

- You can remove the rubber insert from the lid (black thing that hold the hopper in place) and rinse it if you like.

- With the top panel removed you can see the top/fixed burr carrier (metal disc with 3 cross head screws). Removing these screws allows you to lift off the burr carrier.

- You'll see the top burrs are connected to the carrier with 3 slotted head screws. You need to remove these to clean the space between the burr and the carrier. I would brush these clean and reattach the burr before continuing.

- The bottom burr is connected to the machine with 3 slotted head screws. Once these screws are removed you need to leverage the bottom burr set out. This can be quite stiff especially the first time you remove them. Stick a thin metal pole into or two of the screw holes and apply moderate pressure to dislodge it. This bit seems scary but shouldn't cause any damage if done with care.

- after this you can brush and clean under where the bottom burr was.

There is a bit more you can do which involves unscrewing the front panel, removing and cleaning the grind chute and declumper. However, it's quite hard to describe and you'd probably be best just watching a video of it. I found this one helpful:






You can clean as often as you want. I did it frequently to prevent build-up of oils and grinds that might affect the grinders function and your next beans taste. The specialita is great because all of the above cleaning won't change how the burrs are calibrated, just pop it back together and you're good to go.

I did have an issue with the screws though. A couple were very tight from the manufacturer and got slightly damaged when I first loosened them. I was able to order replacements very cheaply online. You might be able to avoid this by using a snug fitting screwdriver and applying some downward pressure when you unscrew them.

I can't speak for your ratio and timing. There isn't one way to pull a shot. The different ratios and times just give you options to change your extraction and the 'correct' changes can only be made through tasting and trial and error and are ultimately down to your taste preferences. I'm still figuring this out myself!

Apologies for the essay, I hope some of this helps you getting started.


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## trbo91 (Mar 7, 2021)

Hey, no need to apologise, this is super helpful and very much appreciated that you took the time to put it together! I actually already opened up once as it arrived before the machine, I ground some shitty (oily) beans and had to clean it.

By frequently, what do you mean like monthly/ weekly?

Will certainly get a proper screwdriver thanks for pointing that out!


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## Nleng (Sep 30, 2020)

I generally cleaned it weekly but that was more because I go through about 250g of beans a week and wanted to clean them before changing bean. It's been longer when I've bought larger bags.

I don't think there would be any mechanical issue with cleaning monthly or longer but I'm no expert... You could make a post in the Eureka grinder forum to see what other owners recommend.


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## trbo91 (Mar 7, 2021)

Perfect, cheers! Got myself some good screwdrivers today to be sure to keep the screws in good shape.

Something I really do not get my head around is counting the pre-infusion when I pull shots. I did a lot of research and there is somewhat contradicting information regarding that out there. Some say count it, some say do not.

I have printed out and started to use this Espresso Compass to work on my shots










I did two for comparison purposes.

1) 18g in, 37 out in 26 seconds (without PI) - Was a little weak and a bit watery so I decided to decrease the yield

2)18g in, 31 out in 46 seconds (with PI - The time of PI and until the espresso started to flow combined was 17seconds. So if I would count without PI, like in shot 1, it would come up to 29 seconds - so only 3 seconds difference which resulted in the decreased yield) - Quite Intense

So my observation here is that by going from 37g out down to 31g I went across the spectrum basically from a weak shot to a quite strong one.

Is my extraction time maybe way too long anyway? If I do not count PI, I am right in the spectrum for decent extraction time and I have pulled a couple of good shots that way. However, if I now start to include PI, the shots take way too long (which is weird as I would not get a very intense shot like the 2nd one with a overly long extraction time, correct?)

I would be interested in how you guys usually do it with the PI, do you all count it? What is the expert opinion on my circumstances? What should I stick to?

I really want to step up my game and need to make a wise decision now 

Cheers,

Tristan


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

trbo91 said:


> Is my extraction time maybe way too long anyway? If I do not count PI, I am right in the spectrum for decent extraction time and I have pulled a couple of good shots that way.


 Something that I wish I had grasped a lot sooner when I first started making espresso is that there isn't a correct time to aim for. If you pull a shot at say 30sec that tastes bad and then pull one at 50sec that tastes good, you obviously aren't going to be aiming for a 30sec shot anymore. It will all depend on the beans; you may enjoy one bean at 30sec, another at 40sec.

The ratio you use will also depend upon how you like your espresso. Again there's no right or wrong ratio. For example I don't drink straight espresso, but if I did I would probably prefer a ratio closer to 1:3. I usually make a milk drink around 300ml so I find that I often enjoy a ratio closer to 1:1.5.

Also, because of the above, I wouldn't recommend tasting the espresso straight unless you're drinking it straight. Taste it in the drink you're making. Though when first starting out it may be is helpful to taste it straight to at least know you are somewhere near good.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

trbo91 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I have been a silent reader here for a while and now that my machine arrived, I thought I'd sign up and become a part of the community. I went with a Rocket Apartemento Serie Nera and a Eureka Mignon Specialita Grinder.
> 
> ...


 A typical dose for a stock basket is usually less than 18g but you might get away with it. 18g doses are usually used in VST or IMS baskets.

20 seconds is quite quick. 30g or 30ml? Volume measures are sometimes used and 30ml will not be 30g because of crema. A single espresso is 25ml, a double 50ml with a small allowance for variance. Volume is a bad measure because of crema, you're better off using scales to weigh the output.

30g is quite low for an 18g dose, you might be enjoying quite low extractions here especially if your shot time is only 20 seconds or so. The output you should aim for is based on how it tastes, not what it says on a manual or what somebody tells you to do on the internet. It's best to change one variable at a time. Don't be discouraged by the first sign of failure and go back to previous settings. If your shot is running fast and total shot time is less 30 seconds or less chances are you can increase extraction yield, but grinding finer might get you a sour shot first, grinding finer again might get you a bitter shot, grinding finer again might get you back to something that tastes good but with a higher EY.

Your shot time is from the time the pump is switched on and so includes pre-infusion. 3-6 seconds is oddly variable for an E61 machine. Are you basing pre-infusion time on when you see the first drops coming from the portafilter? If so it would seem your grind is quite coarse. First drops on an E61 usually come around 10 seconds in, however it will vary depending on the ratio you want so YMMV.


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## trbo91 (Mar 7, 2021)

Thanks @MarkHB, tasting the drink I actually make certainly makes sense. I guess it is just going to be a lot of fiddling around and I will get there at one point. Everything went quite well with the beans I first used, but now after switching, I do not get the new ones quite right yet. Would have sticked to the ones I had but they are not available for the foreseeable future according to Origin.

@Rob1 always grams, I have a little scale I use. The last shots were all around 36g so a 1:2 ratio.

When you say the shot time is from when the pump is switched on, is this the point when the lever is in the top position? Or already when I pre-infuse (it is at 45 degrees at this point)? And what do you mean by oddly variable?

Regarding the pre infusion time, let me quickly outline how I brew at the moment, should be easiest that way:

- Pre-Infuse with lever on 45 degrees for 3-6 seconds

- Set lever to top position and wait (and just as you assume, once the lever is fully up, it takes a little less than 10 seconds until the first drops come)

- Espresso starts flowing, stop once it is around 36g

I either start the time with pre-infusion or with the first drop.

Example of the last shot:

18g in, 42 seconds (from pre-infusion), 38g out

- 5 Second PI

- Flow after 14 seconds (so as you said around 10 seconds)

-38g after a total of 42 seconds from the point I started PI

Some things I noticed regarding the shot, I made a Flat White off:

- Slow dripping & dark crema

- Taste: not very strong, almost weak and watery

Looking at the Espresso compass above, my guess would be that I need to decrease the yield?

Does the above still imply that my grind might be to coarse and by setting it finer and extracting a bit longer, I might be able to have a improved drink? The only thing that is contradictory to that would be that the flow is already pretty slow and would get even slower with a finer grind.

Thanks for all your help, I do appreciate it!


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## Nleng (Sep 30, 2020)

I think of it all as extraction time. But as stated above, time on it's own is an unreliable metric.

From the moment water touches the coffee, regardless of the pump pressure, you are extracting flavours and oils from the coffee.

The increased contact time of water to coffee when you pre-infuse will increase your extraction. Therefore, the longer the pre-infusion the more you will be extracting (to a point).

When dialing in, I would recommend changing one variable (grind, ratio, yield) at a time. Otherwise it can be difficult to understand what each change did to your shot. You can treat pre-infusion like any other variable.


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## trbo91 (Mar 7, 2021)

Thanks @Nleng, I think I am going to see first what grinding a bit coarser does and keep the other factors consistent.

My assumption at the moment is that I over extract (based on slow flow, slightly bitter taste plus quite weak). Also did some research on how the creama should ideally look like and the shot in the picture seems to be on the over extracted spectrum from my guess.









🙏Thanks everyone


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

trbo91 said:


> always grams, I have a little scale I use. The last shots were all around 36g so a 1:2 ratio.
> 
> When you say the shot time is from when the pump is switched on, is this the point when the lever is in the top position? Or already when I pre-infuse (it is at 45 degrees at this point)? And what do you mean by oddly variable?
> 
> ...


 Ok I see what you mean now. There are three lever positions. When say you pre-infuse you mean you move the lever to the second position. Unless the machine is plumbed in and you're getting goo line pressure you aren't pre-infusing. As far as I'm aware the appartamento only has a vibe pump variant and can't be plumbed in so my assumption was the pre-infusion you were talking about was the in-built pre-infusion of the E61 group. On a manometer you'll see the pressure rise and stall for a couple of seconds at about 4 bar before continuing to ramp up to the max pressure set by the OPV/whatever the puck can resist. This function exists to prevent high flow rates from a rotary pump from destroying the puck. I don't know if the appartamento has a manometer that you can view brew pressure with but it's not really worth thinking about. Pre-infusion ends when you see the first drops forming on the bottom of the basket with a naked pf. If you're looking for drops with a spouted PF there's a significant delay.

The first lever position you're using doesn't really do anything. With a DB virtually nothing will come out, with a HX you will get a little trickle but you're just wetting the top of the puck not really pre-infusing. I've heard it can have a negative impact on the shot, not really heard anything positive. Probably better to be consistent and just lift the lever to the full up brew position.

If your shot took 37 seconds (removing the 5 second 'pi') and the ratio was a 1:2 then you're not over-extracting. You can get weak and watery extractions from bad puck prep. Bitterness doesn't mean over-extraction.

Regarding the last two points:

You can get watery and 'empty' weak tasting shots at any point. Improving extraction gives you bigger window to aim for which you can get to by grinding finer to a point and good puck prep. It's possible a coarser grind and longer ratio will improve things however there's likely room to increase extraction.


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## trbo91 (Mar 7, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> You can get watery and 'empty' weak tasting shots at any point. Improving extraction gives you bigger window to aim for which you can get to by grinding finer to a point and good puck prep. *It's possible a coarser grind and longer ratio will improve things however there's likely room to increase extraction. *


 Okay, thanks @Rob1, I just watched a video on that topic and what I though of as pre-infusion all the time was actually just pre-wetting (as you assumed, no plumb, no pressure).

Funnily, the last point you mentioned was exactly what I tried for the last shot I pulled. I set the grinder a notch coarser and went for a 1:3 ratio (18g in, 36 seconds from when the lever was in the full up position, 60g out), which resulted in stronger and much less watery shot which was much better taste wise.

I think I am playing around a little bit now with the 1:3 ratio with 18g in and aim for 60 out. And also forget about the pre-wetting or whatever I did there


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