# Tamping & VST Baskets



## Tryfan (Apr 11, 2012)

I'm having mixed success with my espressos (or should that be espressi?)

First pull will be something like 18g in, 36g out in just a shade under 25 seconds, so I tighten the grind and the second pull, 18g in, 37g out in 22 seconds.

I'm controlling the variables as well as my inexperienced abilities will allow me, so I'm wondering why my shot will pull faster the second time even when I tighten the grind slightly.

One variable I'm working on is the tamp. I'm trying to keep it consistent, but I fear I'm probably not doing a great job just yet which makes me wonder: with the VST's small holes which I understand are intended to maintain a good pressure in the basket, do I need to be trying to get a 30lb worth of pressure in the tamp. Or can I tamp a bit lighter, and let the basket do it's thing?

My reasoning is that a lighter tamp will be easier to get consistent on.

My kit: Rancillio Siliva, Mahlkonig Vario, beans roasted by a local roasted 22nd Sept.


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

I'd guess its your distribution or tamp that's effecting the speed of the shot. If you think you can achieve a more consistent tamp pressure by using a lighter tamp then go for it, its all about consistency rather than absolute pressure. By using a lighter tamp you'll probably find you have to tighten the grind up to slow the pour down.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Can you achieve consistent times if you don't change the grind settings?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm guessing it's more likely to be the distribution that's the issue.

It would be good to rule out if the action of changing the grind is causing some issues.

It might be worth posting a clip of the shot prep and shot.


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## 7877 (Aug 14, 2014)

Got an 18g VST basket for my Silvia recently and I have observed similar...come to the conclusion as others have said its about distribution and tamp......if distribution is not right I find it all too easy to end up tamping with more pressure on one side than the other leaving surface of the coffee not really level and so essentially 'less tamped' to one side than another.

interestingly I find the VST also results in a change of flow over the duration compared to the original double basket which seems to pretty much flow the same from start to finish. So with the VST it can start quite slow and even looking like starting to choke the Silvia but then towards end of the pour it's almost starting to gush....also with the VST a the puck is far wetter now after the pour and there tends to be a shallow remnant of water sitting still on the puck when the portafilter is removed....the rancilio basket was always much drier for me, but then I was probably over packing it a bit to be honest

hope that helps!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Try 18.5g doses and focus on a consistent routine


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

Do you tap the portafilter to collapse the grounds?

My Rancilio Rocky used to make a lot of clumps and I'd have to stir the grounds in the basket with a kebab stick then give the PF a dead knock too. In retrospect it reduced my channelling a lot.

You could also try a nutation tamp which helps with even distribution in the basket,

as Gary says above be consistent as possible.

Where are you based in East Yorkshire by the way?


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## Tryfan (Apr 11, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback all.

My 'distribution' could certainly be a weak aspect. I don't have a vid (will sort one out if problems persist), but my routine is broadly as follows:


Tare scales to empty basket.

Weigh beans into basket, usually 0.2g to 0.3g above target weight which is 18g so far.

Grind beans directly into basket, check and make sure within 0.1g of desired weight.

Inset basket into portafilter

Tamp the mound, apply *some* pressure trying to be consistent.

Flush group head / temp surf.

Insert portafilter and brew with scales and a timer.


I had previously tried distributing with my finger (NSEW), but wasn't having much joy, so tried without distributing with my finger, instead allowing the tamper to distribute the grounds.

Other than the tamping pressure question, I would say my routine is consistent - same steps same order almost without thinking now.

Perhaps the beans could play a part. Had some horrible gushers with spritzing tonight, then swapped to a bag of Rave Fudge, and pulled two shots with same weights within a couple of seconds (18.5g in, 36g out in 30 and 28 seconds for first and second).

Between Hull and Withernsea Beano - not a million miles from yourself. We pass through Hornsea regularly either when I'm out on the bike, or a family outing to Mr Moo's for Ice Cream.


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

Try string the ground coffee with a cocktail stick before tamping (to break up any clumps) or try nutating with the tamper before tamping down to get a better distribution in the basket and prevent channelling.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Try and keep your prep as simple as possible . You should be able to use the vario and a simple stamp to get a good even pour.

If at all possible try not to add another step in ( cocktail stick for example ) unless absolutely needed , you can end up with an overly complex routine and going down a rabbit hole ..

Aim at getting the coffee even across the basket and a nice simple tamp ( doesn't have to be 30lbs , just something you can replicate each time ) ..

Perhaps a clip of your prep mighty help .

If you wish to experiment with nutating then have a look at this

http://gifboom.com/x/4d3e49bb


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Tryfan said:


> I had previously tried distributing with my finger (NSEW), but wasn't having much joy, so tried without distributing with my finger, instead allowing the tamper to distribute the grounds.


Have look at what Matt Perger says on the subject of grind distribution prior to tamping. You can find it on the HasBean site under the Pergatamp listing.


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

Tryfan said:


> Between Hull and Withernsea Beano - not a million miles from yourself. We pass through Hornsea regularly either when I'm out on the bike, or a family outing to Mr Moo's for Ice Cream.


Mr Moo's is ever so indulgent!

What machine do you have?

Dave


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## Tryfan (Apr 11, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Try and keep your prep as simple as possible . You should be able to use the vario and a simple stamp to get a good even pour.
> 
> If at all possible try not to add another step in ( cocktail stick for example ) unless absolutely needed , you can end up with an overly complex routine and going down a rabbit hole ..
> 
> ...


Your point is duly noted. I have been attempting to avoid unnecessary steps in the process - however I fully acknowledge my skills shortage will probably mean I'm not best placed to judge on what is necessary and what is not in some cases.



The Systemic Kid said:


> Have look at what Matt Perger says on the subject of grind distribution prior to tamping. You can find it on the HasBean site under the Pergatamp listing.


That is an interesting read indeed. Especially the bit about the pre-tamped bed looking like a 'putting green'. Mine are always far from that, even when I attempt to distribute with my finger first. This is a step which needs some work, and perhaps I was quick to skip it.



Beanosaurus said:


> Mr Moo's is ever so indulgent!
> 
> What machine do you have?
> 
> Dave


I'm playing with Rancilio Silvia, Mahlkonig Vario, 18g VST basket and a Torr 58.4mm curved base tamper. Beans are fresh; maybe too fresh now I've switch to a new batch of Rave (roasted 29th Sept). The different beans have reduced the amount of gushers I was getting with my other beans.

I like Xpenno's earlier point about consistent times with same grind too.

Feedback appreciated. thanks.


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## Tryfan (Apr 11, 2012)

I've had improved success this evening from the last two efforts. I thought I'd share a few pictures to help judge grinder output. The pics are full size, so all sins should be clearly visible.

The first picture shows the dosed coffee pre distribution - is it too clumpy. To I need to stir it?

The second and third pictures shows distributed coffee. It looked OK at the time, but it looks not quite level on reflection. Looks a touch clumpy also.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

First picture looks fine, give it a knock against your hand to flatten a little and tamp. that's what I'd be doing... Less is more...


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

As Spence suggests - use the inside of your index finger to tap the side of the portafliter gently to level the grinds.


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## Tryfan (Apr 11, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> First picture looks fine, give it a knock against your hand to flatten a little and tamp. that's what I'd be doing... Less is more...


Great - that's exactly what I did.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

My shot prep changes all the time. I try and remove stages and then generally replace them with other ones a week later. Would be worth posting a vid clip of the shot prep and tamp.

Agree with the advice given about trying to keep the process as consistent as possible.

When I had a Classic, 18.5-19g in a 18gVST seemed to work really well. Silvia is a similar machine.

Keep us posted how your getting on.


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