# Beat that



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Ok, my HG One is not yet seasoned properly. It has the Mazzer 83 mm Titanium Nitride coated burrs. There was only a straight choice between those and the aftermarket equivalant and in terms of price, it was a few dollars. I have just put in 16 gms and it took 130 turns or revolutions to grind! Mind you, it was quite a nice shot and they do say that once run in this will shorten to 70 or 80!

I think a lot of people have opted for the smaller burr set which is no longer available! On the plus side though, the coating makes the turning absolutely effortless!


----------



## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Ok, my HG One is not yet seasoned properly. It has the Mazzer 83 mm Titanium Nitride coated burrs. There was only a straight choice between those and the aftermarket equivalant and in terms of price, it was a few dollars. I have just put in 16 gms and it took 130 turns or revolutions to grind! Mind you, it was quite a nice shot and they do say that once run in this will shorten to 70 or 80!
> 
> I think a lot of people have opted for the smaller burr set which is no longer available! On the plus side though, the coating makes the turning absolutely effortless!


Hi dfk41

I do like the look of the HG1, I am tempted to give it go, I suppose it's too early to tell how it compares with your other grinders as the burrs aren't run in yet, I'll be interested in your findings when they are though!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Although not yet run in, it beats the Mythos hands down if you use taste as the judge. the Mythos, from a dark roast still tries to extract light, fruity acidic notes where as both the K10 and the HG find the darker, earthier nutty chocolate overtones. For the benefit of Bootise, I hope to be posting, HG 2, the movie soon......!


----------



## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Although not yet run in, it beats the Mythos hands down if you use taste as the judge. the Mythos, from a dark roast still tries to extract light, fruity acidic notes where as both the K10 and the HG find the darker, earthier nutty chocolate overtones. For the benefit of Bootise, I hope to be posting, HG 2, the movie soon......!


Ahhh! The K10, that's the other one on my wish list. The time will come when upgradeitus will consume me once more and I'll make a decision on which grinder to go for, until then I'll have fun single dosing my Super Jolly.

Ill look forward to your HG movie


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I hope to be posting, HG 2, the movie soon......!


Looking forward to that David.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

That's interesting I thought that the popular consensus was a conical( k10) brought out more fruit high end notes than a flat burr ( mythos )


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> That's interesting I thought that the popular consensus was a conical( k10) brought out more fruit high end notes than a flat burr ( mythos )


I do not know where that comes from Martin. I always thought that the conical was capable of splitting the tastes up, like a shaft of light through a spectrum, whereas the Mythos or flats are not able to split in the same way. This means that with the Mythos, it finds the fruity notes but on the same bena does not find the darker notes in the same way. That might be bollocks of course, but in the cup, the same bean, same espresso machine found one heck of a difference in note and taste, and all I can say id I have scripted in in a way that made sense to me, if no one else!


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I have 83mm Ti Burrs on my royal (flat burrs) and I had read bunch of info on seasoning them, I guess the Burrs were pretty much new when I got them, at least they looked it. In the end I decided at the rate I get through coffee that they would probably be seasoned in about 3-5 years. I decided to expedite the process and did some reading up over various blogs/website and forums before deciding on rice as the weapon of choice. I grabbed a 2kg box of Uncle Bens (other brands are available) 10 minute rice as it's pretty clean and it wasn't too expensive. I ran it through the royal checking the time taken to grind 20g (with no weight on beans) at the start and every two cups of rice. I didn't measure that accurately on the time but there was certainly an improvement of about 4 seconds total for 20g of unweighed beans. I've also noticed that it grinds more quietly, more evenly (to the eye), my grind settings are tighter now but I'm getting better extraction (less early blonding) and there are noticeably less clumps and static especially at tighter grind settings.

Cheers

Spence


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I do not know where that comes from Martin. I always thought that the conical was capable of splitting the tastes up, like a shaft of light through a spectrum, whereas the Mythos or flats are not able to split in the same way. This means that with the Mythos, it finds the fruity notes but on the same bena does not find the darker notes in the same way. That might be bollocks of course, but in the cup, the same bean, same espresso machine found one heck of a difference in note and taste, and all I can say id I have scripted in in a way that made sense to me, if no one else!


From Americans dfk .... Like I said not my opinion as don't have the two to compare.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Martin, I suppose at the end of the day, it is personal taste. My pal doing the video much preferred the acidic Mythos shot to the darker Hg and K10 shots. For me, it was vice versa. I think all it comes down to, is the conical extracts a wider range than a flat, be it acidic or not!


----------



## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

Things, as they say can only get better!

it's interesting that you can tell the difference in taste between the different burrsets.

Can you tell the difference between the K10 and HG-1?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Marky, my palate is not the most sophisticated, but on Wednesday the two of us who tasted the two side by side could not really split them. Even more in interesting, was the shot I just pulled had 15.9 gms in and 15.8 gms out. Compared to the waste on the K10 the HG will soon have paid for itself!


----------



## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

That is very interesting!

Near zero retention... I'm tempted to get a friend for the K30...


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I definitely find large flat burrs at slower RPM to enhance chocolate & caramel base notes.

The mini-e with mid-size flat at fast RPM was unbalanced , bright, overly sharp, rarely got much chocolate/caramel. Perhaps more of a grind distribution issue tho.

I have limited experience with larger conical grinders, but coffee I know pretty well from home use came out more focus'd (treble and midrange) and fruity on the Robur-e and Compak k10 WBC.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MarkyP said:


> That is very interesting!
> 
> Near zero retention... I'm tempted to get a friend for the K30...


What's got zero retention ....


----------



## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

The HG -1...

15.9 in, 15.8 out...


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Even more in interesting, was the shot I just pulled had 15.9 gms in and 15.8 gms out. Compared to the waste on the K10 the HG will soon have paid for itself!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MarkyP said:


> The HG -1...
> 
> 15.9 in, 15.8 out...


It should be it's a single dosing grinder with vertical burr alignment ...


----------



## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Interesting.

So if I prefer lighter roasts and naturals with fruit and acidity would the HG-ONE not be a good choice for me?


----------



## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> It should be it's a single dosing grinder with vertical burr alignment ...


I know, that's why I'm tempted!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

aaronb said:


> Interesting.
> 
> So if I prefer lighter roasts and naturals with fruit and acidity would the HG-ONE not be a good choice for me?


I'm not sure dfk is ever going to put anything light through any of his grinders......


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Perhaps a bag of SQM to clean the grinder out?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Aaron, the point j was making was that the conical seems to extract more taste, be it fruity or otherwise. The same bean through the Mythos produced a different taste


----------



## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Aaron, the point j was making was that the conical seems to extract more taste, be it fruity or otherwise. The same bean through the Mythos produced a different taste


Sorry I did get that, I was just wondering what peoples thoughts were on it's suitability to lighter roasts as I had been considering one but it may not be for me if it lends itself more towards darker roasts and chocolate/caramel.

Would appreciate any feedback from people who have run SqM or HasBean roasts through them.

Or I wonder if the different burrs make a difference?

Sorry to derail your thread dfk


----------



## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

When I picked up the Super Jolly from Mr Shades he kindly brewed a couple of shots for me to taste and the difference in the cup was quite noticeable, the K10 was a smoother mouth feel compared with the SJ it was the first time I had 2 grinders to compare with side by side.

My two pence worth anyway


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

aaron, de-rail away! I am on a laptop now so can expand a bit. Whether it id a light or a dark roast, the experience I am finding is that the conicals extract a wider range of notes than the Mythos. Perhaps an 83 mm flat Mazzer might blow that theory away! Plenty of coffee shops run conicals plus a generally more light roasted bean for the public.

If that still does not sound right, when running the same bean trough the K10 and HG and Mythos, the conicals produced a very similar dark earthy taste whereas surprisingly, the Mythos produced a lighter, more acidic slightly fruity taste. I only have one bean at the moment so cannot experiment too much


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I think it is a silly notion that certain burrs are better for either dark or light roasts.

The differences in flavour are minuscule anyway. Poor shot prep or incorrect extraction % will have a vastly bigger impact in the cup. How many of us can nail 2 or 3 shots back -to-back with exactly the same output yield anyway


----------



## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

cheers guys! I cant afford the hg one right now anyway, but hopefully soon!


----------



## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

It'd be interesting to get the chaps take on this...


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The thing is Gary, some of us produce coffee to drink! We do not really care if there is a 1 gm retention rate, if the shape of the grinds when put beneath the hubble telescope shows a disproportionate amount of fines and shape differentiation, if the output ratio is a fraction away. The important thing is how it tastes! A world record holder only breaks the World Record once. Does that mean all of his other races are crap! Nope, it just means that he excelled on the day that mattered.

So, if you are in the WBC, then perhaps all these things go into building that god shot......if you are in my kitchen they ain't worth a pinch, to me anyway!'


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

"". Rl


----------



## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

So the flavours are different but those from the conical burrs are preferred ?

I'm trying to decide which way is up here

Last month minor dose weight variation was the be all and end all, along with retention. Now its of little or no consideration

My heads hurting now. I'm off to the supermarket to pick up some pre-ground lavazza to snort


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Hahaha Andrew........I know where you are coming from! I usually snort illy as I prefer the taste! Forums equal opinions and the nice thing about having an opinion is that everyone can be right! Just trust your taste buds, thats what I do. I have just had a couple of shots of the Coffee Compass offering for DSOL, roasted over a month ago. Not frozen, not stored in air tight containers, just left open in the packet on the bench.......was wonderful!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> The thing is Gary, some of us produce coffee to drink! We do not really care if there is a 1 gm retention rate, if the shape of the grinds when put beneath the hubble telescope shows a disproportionate amount of fines and shape differentiation, if the output ratio is a fraction away. The important thing is how it tastes! A world record holder only breaks the World Record once. Does that mean all of his other races are crap! Nope, it just means that he excelled on the day that mattered.
> 
> So, if you are in the WBC, then perhaps all these things go into building that god shot......if you are in my kitchen they ain't worth a pinch, to me anyway!'


But different coffees need different extractions , I wouldn't pull the SQM the same as I would the the londinium I had .

Taste is king , but understanding how to get the best from different beans is too and this is where understanding how an extraction ratio can change the taste is important .

Understanding why the same coffee with the same grind and dose tastes better or worse between shots is where the distribution and prep are key and how they effect the extraction , I don't measure fines and use refractometer a . I'd get that what I do to the coffee , how I put it in the portafilter , how long I pull it before can make a good coffee bad .

I agree that the prep, and dosing are way more important in how a coffee tastes than whether I'm using a 73 mm flat or a 68 m conical or an ism or a vst basket .


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> The thing is Gary, some of us produce coffee to drink! We do not really care if there is a 1 gm retention rate, if the shape of the grinds when put beneath the hubble telescope shows a disproportionate amount of fines and shape differentiation, if the output ratio is a fraction away. The important thing is how it tastes! A world record holder only breaks the World Record once. Does that mean all of his other races are crap! Nope, it just means that he excelled on the day that mattered.
> 
> So, if you are in the WBC, then perhaps all these things go into building that god shot......if you are in my kitchen they ain't worth a pinch, to me anyway!'


I think Gary's point is more that the differences between conicals & flats - at an equal level of extraction - is miniscule. I'm not saying that you can't tell the difference, nor that you are in any way mistaken in what you taste. More that you have used 2 different grinders to make 2 different drinks &, naturally, they taste different. Most likely because you have differences in the levels of extraction.

You might not care about the shape of the grinds, fines...but how do you know the differences you taste are not down to these things, rather than the burrs specifically (all else being equal)?

I think burrs do make a difference in the result of a brew/shot, but when you normalise extraction yield & get the same result, the differences are probably far less than is commonly thought.

It's not about competition, or record breaking, it's more about tasting the bean with some consistency.


----------



## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

I must admit, the most important piece in all of this is that the coffee we make is the coffee we drink and love.

We are all after increasing the god-shot ratio. But to be honest if your bad shots are very drinkable, that's a great place to be!


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I agree with the sentiment shared by dfk, I first and formost care for taste, I couldn't care less most of the time what a vat refractometer could tell me about my cup. As for difference between burrs though, wasn't there a presentation at the nordic barista champs indicating, at least on taste, people couldn't tell them apart? Anyway, if what you say is true of the mythos, I have the ideal grinder for my coffee and taste. I also like that it has so little retention though that I don't mind binning it. A 0.1 second purge is enough to clear it.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mark, I am presuming that if I weigh the same bean into the two grinders that have been set up for that bean, and tamp in the same manner to a similar weight, and without weighing the output but going on time and volume, then if there is a taste difference it is more likely to be caused by the way a particular grinder deals with the process of grinding than anything else.

I drink coffee for enjoyment.....I accept that I am blissfully ignorant in the eyes of many! At the end of the day, I take the Roman Empire approach.....it is a thumbs up or a thumbs down to the drink. I do things on the fly. I hate recording or documenting things and yes, probably end up with mediocrity in my cup, but then, since I am blissfully ignorant I do not care!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

But one drink could be taste different as it channeling and one isn't . The extraction can be different . I think I dose and tamp the same each time but the bottomless PF and the extraction time and ratio ( when I measure it ) and the taste tells me I don't


----------



## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Mark, I am presuming that if I weigh the same bean into the two grinders that have been set up for that bean, and tamp in the same manner to a similar weight, and without weighing the output but going on time and volume, then if there is a taste difference it is more likely to be caused by the way a particular grinder deals with the process of grinding than anything else.
> 
> I drink coffee for enjoyment.....I accept that I am blissfully ignorant in the eyes of many! At the end of the day, I take the Roman Empire approach.....it is a thumbs up or a thumbs down to the drink. I do things on the fly. I hate recording or documenting things and yes, probably end up with mediocrity in my cup, but then, since I am blissfully ignorant I do not care!


Absolutely agree with everything here... it's all about the coffee.

Like everyone, I want to make the best drink possible. However, I drink everything I make!!!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Yawnnnnnnnn........!,!!!! Martin, how do you get to sleep at night, pondering all these variables? Boy, you must chuck so many drinks away that do not reach the standard....LoL

You are right of course but that is because you are letting the science take over, where as I am instinct led........I think!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

CoffeeJohnny said:


> I first and formost care for taste, I couldn't care less most of the time what a vat refractometer could tell me about my cup.


Sure, a refractometer is no replacement for one's sense of taste but it does provide crucial data regarding level of extraction which, in turn, has a major bearing on taste. Say a shot tastes unremarkable - which way to go - grinder finer or coarser? A refractometer will point you in the right direction and save a lot of wasted shots. From there, fine tuning is down to personal taste preference.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Yawnnnnnnnn........!,!!!! Martin, how do you get to sleep at night, pondering all these variables? Boy, you must chuck so many drinks away that do not reach the standard....LoL
> 
> You are right of course but that is because you are letting the science take over, where as I am instinct led........I think!


I enjoy what I drink , I don't drinks way in general ( Except dialling in ) I try and understand why something I tasted at cupping isn't there at extraction . It's Because of something I've done . I I don't have graphs or a refractometer , I have a set of scales and a timer and some taste buds . It takes me same amount of time to make a drink as you but what I do It lets me understand if something doesn't taste as good as it did last time , why that might be.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Sounds like a challenge bootsie baby! When you and Paddy come over I am gonna blow your coffee socks off with my off the cuff, non scientific approach........well, I will try anyway!


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I said most of the time, of course it interests me, but if I hit 20% and it tastes crap and 16% and it tastes good to me then I will drink the one that tastes better.

What the VST does not account for is what each Chemoreceptor perceives as pleasant it also is incapable of assessing any positive neurological links associated when the receptor is activated. When it comes to that, it is a very blunt tool indeed.

Where it excels is assessing what the main cohort finds pleasant and measuring the cup against that.

If someone lies outside the bell curve they may even disagree entirely that 20% TDS is a pleasurable drink.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Sounds like a challenge bootsie baby! When you and Paddy come over I am gonna blow your coffee socks off with my off the cuff, non scientific approach........well, I will try anyway!


No challenge we have different tastes, , I can quite happily go from a single origin from SQM to jampit to a Yirgacheffe in one days drinking. Doesn't make be any better or worse , we appreciate different ranges of flavours in coffee in different ways


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Coward.....that's fighting talk where I come from....go on, tell me you have moved recently.....


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MWJB said:


> I think Gary's point is more that the differences between conicals & flats - at an equal level of extraction - is miniscule. I'm not saying that you can't tell the difference, nor that you are in any way mistaken in what you taste. More that you have used 2 different grinders to make 2 different drinks &, naturally, they taste different. Most likely because you have differences in the levels of extraction.
> 
> You might not care about the shape of the grinds, fines...but how do you know the differences you taste are not down to these things, rather than the burrs specifically (all else being equal)?
> 
> ...


You read my mind. As usual


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

If someone is happy with the coffee they produce and not bothered about the exacting parameters which are so critical to espresso, why then change grinder every five minutes . It seems like an eternal quest for improvement to me : )


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Simple Gary.......because I can!


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

anyway, the one thing we all agree on, I think, we want coffee that tastes great. Some like to know why it tastes the way it does to a greater extent than others and employ any tool at their disposal.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Seems like a lot of effort


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I like a Challenge, s long s it is un scientific! Anyway, what are my findings so far? The Sage is beaten by the Vario which is beaten by the Mignon which is beaten by the Mythos which in turn is beaten by both the HG One and K10. On reflection, that's a lot of effort but also a lot of fun.

I respect your knowledge Gary on coffee, and I could not have reviewed the Sage in anything like the manner you did, but there again, I do not really want to either!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Seems like a lot of effort


Isn't that what we're all about?


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Isn't that what we're all about?


So long as there is tangible benefit , hell yeah : )


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Mark, I am presuming that if I weigh the same bean into the two grinders that have been set up for that bean, and tamp in the same manner to a similar weight, and without weighing the output but going on time and volume, then if there is a taste difference it is more likely to be caused by the way a particular grinder deals with the process of grinding than anything else.
> 
> I drink coffee for enjoyment.....I accept that I am blissfully ignorant in the eyes of many! At the end of the day, I take the Roman Empire approach.....it is a thumbs up or a thumbs down to the drink. I do things on the fly. I hate recording or documenting things and yes, probably end up with mediocrity in my cup, but then, since I am blissfully ignorant I do not care!


I wouldn't say you were ignorant at all, even if it's blissful. I know that many reading this think that measuring shots/yield is geekery gone mad, but let me give you an illustration...

You have used a consistent dose, put 2 doses through different grinders, possibly got 2 different weights in the basket & pulled shots for the same time. You say you have equal volume. So we are simply judging the resultant cups by being brewed in the same time & how big they look. How does that tell us anything other than they took the same time & are the same size?

I caught a fish once, it took 5 minutes to land it. It was fairly big. I liked it. Is that about right? Was it a good example of a fish? ;-)

We talk about extracting coffee. The shot tastes the way it does because of how much of the dry dose is turned into liquid (extracted) & ends up in the cup...even if your equal volume shots weighed exactly the same, it only takes around a +/- 5% difference in strength to go from target to minimum ideal extraction & reasonable maximum. Or, if they are the same strength, it's only a gram either way and you're outside the zone. Or if they are the same strength & weight, +/-0.7g of dose...if I had a Mythos, K10 & HG1 I'd want to be sure they were earning their keep (I'm sure all are very capable), if I really didn't care I'm not sure why I'd buy them.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

So, after all that, the discussion really comes down to whether we think we are making the most of the kit we have or not......but, at the end of the day, you end up with a little liquid in a cup and you either like it or you do not. The question of whether or not you could make it better is an interesting one of course, to some anyway. It is hard to argue with science so why bother?


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Spill the beans , what did the fish weigh in the end?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Well, it's more about trying to reduce the number of cups you don't like & increase the cups you do like...we have to assume the vast majority of beans we buy are suitable for making coffee with, if we're not liking some of the results should we be blaming the beans, the grinder, etc....?

If you like 'em all you don't have a problem.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok here goes, been thinking bout this...

We ( me and DFK ) are both very lucky to have machines that are easier to use and very forgiving ( they are rock sold temperature stable, have pre infusion ) DFK has currently more equity in grinders than anyone would dream off! This means the gear we both have allows us to make , making coffee a lot easier than lesser expensive equipment . you still need skills and a palate , this is given.

In your case Dave it allows you top make coffee using the same short extraction style you like ( short extractions in 20 seconds ) and then finding beans that fit around your palate and your style .

Now The most common questions of new members on here is why doesn't my coffee taste good or like the tasting notes, or like the rest of you say it does... ( lets take for granted that they have fresh beans and a grinder capable of making an espresso grind )

Why doesn't it taste like they want it to ,because they invariable don't know from shot to shot what they are dosing , how to prep a basket and how it is extracting ( channeling etc ) and in what ball park the temp is ( if they are using single boiler machines and aren't temperature surfing )

So we ask them to measure dose , do some prep , see how it extracts and measure and taste and change change variables.

Their coffee gets better....they have used science....

Some won't do this and won't come on here and hence we we be shiny machines on ebay .

Yeah you don't need science all the time , but having something like an l1 allows you more flexibility f on some of your variables , because it has a forgiving pre infusion and rock solid temperature to extract on.

Whats my point , some form of measuring etc can be really beneficial , especially when your trying to contend with lesser grinders and machines they we both have .........


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I come from a working world where the dividing line between gut instinct, hearing and experience vs scientific measurement and quantification was a hot topic of debate for more than 10 years, and don't even get me started on the analogue vs digital debate. I always advocated a synthesis of both approaches and found this tended to gain the best results, plenty of, generally speaking , younger guys couldn't take their eyes off the numbers and meters and wouldn't trust something unless it could be quantified and measured not even their own ears, then there were the older guys who wouldn't trust the measurement approach, going only with their ears as a guide. Both approaches could occasionally deliver great results but far more often, particularly the ones who wouldn't trust their own senses delivered mediocre to diabolical results. Those of that stood in the middle and used measurement to confirm what we were hearing and help to determine why this was occurring were the last men standing.

I see huge parallels in this discussion. I don't think anyone is advocating to just trust measurement and not taste, but I must really disagree regarding the statement that if we don't like the coffee produced by a certain bean we must be doing something wrong. We all know beans deliver different tastes from farm to farm, from sack to sack and from region to region, not everyone will like every bean no matter how close to the "ideal" it is extracted, I'll give you an example I hate grapefruit I just didn't like the taste , it doesn't matter what you try to do with it I still don't like it, the same goes for tonic water.

Having a machine with so many variable parameters I have recently become more scientific in my approach to making espresso and have even enjoyed beans that are a lighter roast than I have previously liked, I wouldn't have been able to do this without an understanding of what I am doing and why, however, over an above anything else I let my taste buds decide what I need to do to correct the extraction so that it is more to my tastes. I wouldn't even consider making espresso for myself without weighing input and output, if it were say a family occasion and making coffee for a large number of people I might just dose directly into the portafilter and let the volumetrics do their job, but that would still be a huge improvement to the coffee the rest of my UK based family drink at home.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

All talk is good as everyone has their viewpoint. Of course I do some of the things, like sometimes weighing in beans but so often I do not, just going by eye etc....if I was making a coffee for someone else who I knew was going to judge me then perhaps I would be cautious, but, at the end of the day I do very few things in my life by numbers........he says, thinking of Fletchers words of wisdom to Mr MAckay!


----------



## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm in the half science / half feel with my coffee. I would say that it's far easier to make mediocre coffee with decent kit. Maybe a high end grinder taste test is in order for the next forum day ?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

working dog said:


> I'm in the half science / half feel with my coffee. I would say that it's far easier to make mediocre coffee with decent kit. Maybe a high end grinder taste test is in order for the next forum day ?


Grind off 2......


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

working dog said:


> I'm in the half science / half feel with my coffee. I would say that it's far easier to make mediocre coffee with decent kit. Maybe a high end grinder taste test is in order for the next forum day ?


People like the idea of "science vs. feel" (machine vs man...etc.), think of it more like cooking - but, people don't think twice about recommendations for "fluffy rice every time", or microwaving their instant porridge product, or baking. Coffee is more like cooking - brew, taste, adjust. If you're a bag down & still adjusting...it's time to measure...or buy bigger bags?


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

The thing I have kind of against the pure measurement aka espresso by numbers brigade is where does it leave you if according to all measurements the shot of espresso in front of you is perfect, but you still don't like it, in that case it has to be that you don't like the bean, or it's roast level or a so called perfect extraction. Also most likely you will have a cold espresso in front of you by the time you've completed all your measurement and calculations.

Above and beyond anything to do with method, if it tastes right to you it is right for you. I really really don't like very acidic coffee it's sod all to do with my brewing method I simply do not like it b, doesn't matter how "well " its made I don't like the way it tastes as I'm very sensitive to acidity in food and drinks.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Pursuit of coffee excellence is subject, like all things, to the law of diminishing returns. Anything, technique and/or use of science that helps gets my vote.


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Pursuit of coffee excellence is subject, like all things, to the law of diminishing returns. Anything, technique and/or use of science that helps gets my vote.


I most certainly agree with this Patrick I just think that over reliance on either side of this discussion is where trouble and bad coffee lurk.

Without knowledge of the "science" I would be floundering around in the dark with all the adjustable parameters on the Sage, brew temp, steam temp, preinfusion pressure and length of time, being able to bypass preinfusion by holding down a button, being able to lengthen preinfusion by holding down another, being able to lengthen preinfusion and raising pressure so that you can pull an entire shot at say 7.5 BAR rather than pre infuse and then pull the shot at 9 BAR, being able to preinfuse, run the shot for a while at 9 BAR and then holding in a button to run the rest of the shot at lower pressure etc.

But at the end of the day my overriding concern is "did it taste good", I have made some foul shots whilst playing around with all those parameters, it's good fun too and even the bad shots have taught me something. Also being able to as Gary put it use the "stabilisers" also has it's place when you can't be bothered with the messing around.


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I think I'm in the 50:50 approach. The numbers get you in the right ball park but it's the fine tuning and experimenting to your taste that get the better shots for me.

Even the mistakes can be great. The first shot I pulled with Jampit I'd not used scales and was doing it by eye.

I mistakenly stopped the shot early and when weighed it was 18g from a 18g dose. Tasted phenomenally, possibly the best shot I'd pulled up to that point.


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Grind off 2......


Sounds good.....who's going to be the Tommy of the barista world? Deaf, Dumb and Blind but pulls shot by touch alone.









.....it's got A&E written all over it!!!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I was pulling 18 gms from 16 gms in 28 seconds today with Jampit, and before you start, that was the first time this year I have weighed output. I always pull a short shot with Jampit and I just wanted to know how short


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Charliej said:


> The thing I have kind of against the pure measurement aka espresso by numbers brigade is where does it leave you if according to all measurements the shot of espresso in front of you is perfect, but you still don't like it, in that case it has to be that you don't like the bean, or it's roast level or a so called perfect extraction. Also most likely you will have a cold espresso in front of you by the time you've completed all your measurement and calculations.
> 
> Above and beyond anything to do with method, if it tastes right to you it is right for you. I really really don't like very acidic coffee it's sod all to do with my brewing method I simply do not like it b, doesn't matter how "well " its made I don't like the way it tastes as I'm very sensitive to acidity in food and drinks.


There are 2 points that stand out to me here...

1 The assertion that the "measurement brigade" are devoid of tastebuds, or lacking somehow in sensory evaluation? We trust people who say they like things because they brew by feel/eye/roast level/maintaining a rigorous level of worship of the woodland spirits, but not people who can establish how much coffee is in their, erm, coffee? Puhleeeze! ;-) How many times have you had a 19-20% coffee that you didn't like? It's not a foolproof scenario, but unlikely if you like the coffee at all & with good prep.

2 You don't like underextracted coffee. You just haven't measured the "very acidic" coffee you don't like to ascertain that is largely why you don't like it. ;-) When have you had a 19-20% espresso (roasted for that purpose) that was "very acidic"? If you can brew that same coffee so that it is sweet & balanced, but it's only "very acidic" as espresso, how can you claim it's "bugger all" to do with the brew method?

I hate slightly underextracted coffee, but go farther & 12-14% actually doesnt have that much acidity, but it doesn't have much character either. If you don't like coffee at it's most acidic, then it sounds like you would benefit most from getting into the 19-20% range ("Big Hump").

If your coffee is horrible, it's not how it is supposed to be.

If you can get into the ideal zone, then roast level isn't holding you back....it largely holds you back because lighter (espresso) roasts are harder to extract & more likely to underextract.

You ony need 4-5ml for measurement of espresso, you may have finished the shot before you get a reading. I brew taste, assess, then measure. Once you are accustomed to coffee at your extraction preference, you may not need to measure anything again until the wheels come off.

I see noobs being told they have to brew to specific ratios here all the time (sound advice, I agree entirely), those oft quoted ratios are designed to specifically hit ideal yield, at a certain strength preference...if you have ever told anyone to brew at 1.5:1, then you have bought into the yield philosophy, without knowing it. If you are a "by feel" guy, taste it on the way out out & stop when it tastes like crap, no scales, no measurement, just cooking.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Plus one on the above .


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Mark to answer your 1st 2 points.

1. Hence my statement of "pure measurement" meaning people who go on measurement alone rather than trusting their senses as well. I'm not saying anyone here is like that but thee are people out there who are, you can find them in any hobby that involves some form of science and measurement.

2.I'm talking about the varieties of coffee that some roasters sell that states it has a high acidity level in the cupping notes. I have tried a few and no matter how I tried I simply didn't like them and that was as brewed to as close to the roasters" ideal" parameters as I could achieve.

As I said I'm fairly sensitive to acidity in food and drinks and I would prefer not to buy such things. That's just me and my personal tastes, just like some people just don't like very hot dishes and chillies, I'm not keen on these either about the "spiciest" I can deal with is a Madras from the average Indian takeaway or restaurant. If I'm going out for a curry in Rusholme, Bradford or Birmingham I won't even go there I'll opt for something much milder, as experience has taught me that the dishes in those places generally tend to have a higher level of " heat".


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Who are, the 'people out there', Charlie, who go on measurement alone? - I haven't come across one. Those who are advocates of using gizmos to measure extraction rates such as Scott Rao and Matt Perger, for example, are at pains to stress the importance of taste being the final arbiter.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think what we all agree on, joking aside, is that the scientific side can certainly help, especially in the beginning to learn parameters, and once you can make a reasonable cuppa, will take you to the next level, but making coffee is not painting by numbers and experience, judgement, call it what you will, must low lays play a part


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Who are, the 'people out there', Charlie, who go on measurement alone? - I haven't come across one. Those who are advocates of using gizmos to measure extraction rates such as Scott Rao and Matt Perger, for example, are at pains to stress the importance of taste being the final arbiter.


I don't know anyone personally that fits that description but if you read through a lot of HB threads there certainly seem to be some out there like that and can't seem to understand why they like the taste of something if the measurements fall outside the "ideal" box. What suits one person even if extracted to absolute perfection may not suit another, you just have to look at all the different countries and farms across the world to know that it's not likely that you will like the taste of them all, that's what I'm trying to get at, numbers or not sometimes you just don't like the taste.

Perfectly prepared or not I'm willing to bet that not many, if anyone would like the taste of Hákarl outside of Iceland or even be willing to try it.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Anyway which grinder is better ?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

No brainer - HG One - cheaper and no retention.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I genuinely think I have witnessed people on here write-off a coffee (and even entire roasters) based on failed attempts to dial it -in/extract it. Thats why I always suggest cupping it if struggling.

If your'e judging coffee by how well your extracting it then the tendency will be to gravitate towards coffees which give up their extractable solid more easily. If they enjoy what they produce then either way thats fair enough.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Charliej said:


> I don't know anyone personally that fits that description but if you read through a lot of HB threads there certainly seem to be some out there like that and can't seem to understand why they like the taste of something if the measurements fall outside the "ideal" box.


I spend a fair bit of time on H-B, that's not typical of what I see...I could stand to be corrected though.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> No brainer - HG One - cheaper and no retention.


It hasn't got a little blue light tho......

And my mythos was cheaper ....


----------



## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> No brainer - HG One - cheaper and no retention.


That's the conclusion I made, albeit a lot earlier before this thread turned into something quite different. So I'm liking the HG1 and 0 retention but will I get fed up with all that turning and turning and turning ! Especially when guests are over, I suppose I could keep the SJ for that and the HG1 for myself and the Mrs Soll. I wouldn't mind seeing one and having go for myself if anyone would kindly offer ?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> I spend a fair bit of time on H-B, that's not typical of what I see...I could stand to be corrected though.


Agree MWJB but there are far more graphs there tho .


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Hmmmm, graphs....


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Hmmmm, graphs....


Yeah I knew you'd dig graphs One last word on extraction , here is my patent scientific palate diagram


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> It hasn't got a little blue light tho......
> 
> And my mythos was cheaper ....


Maybe, but your Mythos is not brand new Martin. An HG One is about £800 all in so perhaps not the clearest comparison.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Numberwang!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Soll said:


> That's the conclusion I made, albeit a lot earlier before this thread turned into something quite different. So I'm liking the HG1 and 0 retention but will I get fed up with all that turning and turning and turning ! Especially when guests are over, I suppose I could keep the SJ for that and the HG1 for myself and the Mrs Soll. I wouldn't mind seeing one and having go for myself if anyone would kindly offer ?


Been grinding away!!?? for a year - haven't got fed up yet:good: Having a back up grinder is the best of both worlds.

Soll, if you go on the HG website, they have a map showing where all the grinders are homed. Not many in the UK. Where are based? If your within travel range of the N West, you're welcome.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Numberwang!


Fess up Gary, you got that off H-B, didn't you?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I did my diagram myself.......


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

So did I : )


----------



## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Been grinding away!!?? for a year - haven't got fed up yet:good: Having a back up grinder is the best of both worlds.
> 
> Soll, if you go on the HG website, they have a map showing where all the grinders are homed. Not many in the UK. Where are based? If your within travel range of the N West, you're welcome.


Ha ha !! It's not even been a year yet TSK ! I know I should be getting the most out of my system first before any grinder upgrade but then I do want the grinding part of the coffee making to be as quick and as easy as possible and at the moment, the SJ does drag on a bit with all the brushing and thwacking. Thanks for your offer of trying it out, only I'm in London and it's a bit of trek up to the North West to try one out.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

There's a southerner on here whoose got a hg1........


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I know my tastes have started to change since I got my hands on the Sage as it gives me so much more control than the Classic, but I still can't imagine loving much thats highly acidic either due to being under extracted or by intention. I love fresh orange juice but have had it in some places that even freshly squeezed from ripe oranges has been too acidic for my taste


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Soll said:


> Ha ha !! It's not even been a year yet TSK ! I know I should be getting the most out of my system first before any grinder upgrade but then I do want the grinding part of the coffee making to be as quick and as easy as possible and at the moment, the SJ does drag on a bit with all the brushing and thwacking. Thanks for your offer of trying it out, only I'm in London and it's a bit of trek up to the North West to try one out.


Had a feeling you were in London. Anyone know if Reiss from a Londinium still has one? If he does, Soll, I'm sure he will demo it for you.


----------



## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> There's a southerner on here whoose got a hg1........


That would most conviniant if a Southerner has an HG1 !


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> I did my diagram myself.......


Really, it's extremely professionally done.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> So did I : )


Very modest, Gary, as ever.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

My my my, David you do like to spark a debate dear fellow, however I am inclined to disagree with some of your assertions. All three of the grinders that you have are good on their own way and to write one off has hugely inferior to the two conicals is a tad bit naive, you certainly have your pallet and and perhaps the flavour profile from the conicals is more in tune with that, but I have had all of these grinders and many more on my bench and have tried them all out quite extensively.

The mythos is Ak fantastic deliverer of coffee into the portafilter, has beautiful fluffy grinds and is capable of fantastic kg extractions across all ranges of coffee, I have run light to medium to dark through the mythos and picked out all of the flavour profiles of them. The key is shot prep once you get to top end grinders and here I am inclined to go with the science route of dialling in a bean, without weighing in and out and timing you just don't get your start point for adjustments ( unless you are the most lucky person on earth) the best of us on here use scales and stopwatches. Once dialled in to perfection the absolute best can be got out of any bean on the mythos as well as the k10 and the hg1

Now the two big conicals are more suited to lever machines (IMHO and experience), they just bring out a little more from the coffee, this is particularly noticeable when comparing the two big mazzers side by side, the royal and robur, as even though single dosing is impossible and retention is high, my go too grinder right now is the robur, just fab with the L1.

Taste is taste and we will all have a different pallet and preference.

With regard to evaluating the big grinders, the grindoff 2 clash of the titans is happening later this year, allowing for direct comparison of all of the top end grinders, but I will post more on that soon


----------



## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Had a feeling you were in London. Anyone know if Reiss from a Londinium still has one? If he does, Soll, I'm sure he will demo it for you.


Oh nooo!! I can see it already! I'll walk into Londinium to demo an HG1 and walk out with an L1 under my arm! Hmmm! Does he do part ex's ?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Soll said:


> Oh nooo!! I can see it already! I'll walk into Londinium to demo an HG1 and walk out with an L1 under my arm! Hmmm! Does he do part ex's ?


No, bad thing, Soll. Reiss will chuck in some beans too


----------



## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

I'm thinking to drop him an email to see if he'll let me play around with HG1 ! And of coarse the L1. Is he approachable ?


----------



## drude (Apr 22, 2013)

When I demoed the L1 in August Reiss had an HG One too. It's a very desirable piece of kit - both the L1 and HG One seem like they might last long enough to leave to your grandchildren...


----------



## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Had a feeling you were in London. Anyone know if Reiss from a Londinium still has one? If he does, Soll, I'm sure he will demo it for you.


He does indeed still have one.


----------



## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Soll, if you go on the HG website, they have a map showing where all the grinders are homed. Not many in the UK.


I don't think that map's been updated for ages. I think it's still showing the same number of units in the uk as over 6 months ago


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Morning, or afternoon to be more exact! I received three packets of that rice the HG boys recommend and ran it through this morning, being much easier to grind than beans. I had to slacken off quite a bit. I then started from scratch, closing the burrs. it took me three shots to get 30 seconds, 29 mls from 15 gms so I can play around now. Taste wise, I am going to work on that a bit. the Jampit took approximately 100 turns for the 15 gms so I will keep an eye on that to see if it drops.

I have to say that the HG although has foibles, is an absolute pleasure to work with, providing it is not your only grinder, unless your habit is just a couple a day!


----------



## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I think Reiss mentioned he has 3 HG-ONE's recently, and would not sell any of them?!

He is very approachable. I'd also have mad respect for anyone carrying an L1 under their arm


----------



## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

aaronb said:


> I think Reiss mentioned he has 3 HG-ONE's recently, and would not sell any of them?!
> 
> He is very approachable. I'd also have mad respect for anyone carrying an L1 under their arm


I imagine they're quite heavy, might bring Jeebsy along if he's free lol!


----------

