# Help with my nakedness!!!



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

OK - to start off with, I'm married, so that takes care of the "I have no accessories" issue but I'm having real trouble with consistency.

I've got a Gaggia Classic and, whilst I'm learning, some Taylors ground coffee from the supermarket. I know this combination is never going to give me great results but it's not going to cost me the earth so SWMBO is happy(ish). My routine is to decant some coffee into a small bowl, use a paperclip to loosen the grounds before spooning (using a teaspoon) into the thingy with the handle







I use the back of a knife and level off the coffee over the bowl and then tamp using the cheap plastic tamper supplied and brush off the spare grounds with my finger. Now I completely understand that I should be grinding my own beans and using a fancy tamper (convex base or flat?) but even using bathroom scales to get a precise 30lb tamp I'm getting varied amounts of espresso with a 25 second brew time (after priming pumps and steam wands etc). It's not all failure though. I seem to have mastered steaming the milk very well, albeit using a mug, and can produce some great latte's and hot chocolate for the kids.

I suppose the main problem is a wet puck - not so much wet as soaking. When I remove the portafilter there's about 2-3mm of water on top. When I switch off the brew switch there's about 5-6 seconds worth of dripping espresso despite the three way solenoid doing its stuff. I have tried using less coffee, more coffee and tamping harder/softer but with each permutation there's no consistency. Does anybody have any ideas what I'm doing wrong or have any suggestions to help me improve?

There are 29 pages of threads in the 'Coffee Lounge', 19 pages in the 'Gaggia Forum', 9 pages in the 'How To's' forum and 6 pages in the 'Barista Home Skills' forum and whilst I confess to missing out a few threads, I've pretty much spent 3 days reading them all and that doesn't include custom searches.

I said at the start that I need accessories and, grinders aside for the moment, here's what I think I need:

Scales - 0.1 sensitivity

Tamper - convex or flat (jury seems out on that one). I know I'm pushing much cheapness but is there that much of a difference between this cheap tamper and this  slightly more expensive one

Shot glasses - with markings for reasonably accurate measurement

Milk pitcher - size for a Classic - 12oz or 20oz ?

Cups and saucers.

Finally, the basket that came with the Classic - is it suitable?

Thanks for looking.

Al


----------



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

When you say "25s brew time" what do you mean exactly? If you mean you're running the Classic for 25s regardless of how much is coming out then I can only imagine that with supermarket ground beans you'll be getting FAR too much output and it must taste pretty bad. The 25s timing comes from the optimal extraction time. This is relying on the the right amount of liquid coming out in that time. Not just running it for 25s regardless. I doubt (but might be wrong) that with the classic you'd be able to tamp supermarket ground beans hard enough to get 2oz in 25s. You'd probably get 2oz in about 5-10s which will mean you're massively over extracting.

Don't you have a local coffee shop that could grind the whole beans for you? You'll need them a lot finer than you can get them from the supermarket.

I put about 18g (depending on the coffee) in my basket and tend to get a nice solid puck at the end. If there's water on the top that means there's too much gap between the top of your coffee and shower screen. Try putting more coffee in. Give the PortaFilter a knock on the counter a couple of times to make sure the coffee if settled, then stir it up again, you'll probably find you fit lots more in that way. The problem with the crappy plastic tamper is that you can't do the whole puck in one push, it's too small so you have to move it around. This will mean you're not getting an even tamp. Personally, I like a flat bottomed tamper because the showerplate is flat and the bottom of my VST basket is flat so it right for my setup.


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Either tamper will be fine. I use both flat and convex and both have the same effect. There is about a 50/50 split in the pro-barista community too

Even a hand grinder like this one will be better than pre-ground beans in most cases (that said, some Illy coffee is remarkably well ground for espresso!)

Until you get a better tamper the wet puck syndrome will stick with you.


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I love tasting our (taylors) espresso coffee straight after its been roasted and ground and we actually gauge whether the grind is within specification by using a gaggia baby but usually its on the fast side.

I would save up all your pennies and get a grinder. Forget all the other stuff for now, being able to tweak the grind is great.

And you'll need to get some nice fresh beans. Taylors espresso blend is nice when its been freshly roasted (like 30 minutes ago) but usually when its in the supermarket its a few months old.

Best of luck with your Classic


----------



## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

Yeah, get a grinder; a Japanese hand grinder will work well if you're on a budget. You are wanting to get your grind such that you are pouring singles and doubles in ~ 25s. I bet as suggested you're currently pouring that amount in about 10s. This is under-extraction as some of the contents of the beans do not get extracted. What gets extracted first is the thick, oily, sour portion of the shot. You need this to be balanced by what comes out later in the extraction which has more body and bitterness. You can split a shot in half by swapping glasses half way through the pour to learn how the flavour dramatically changes.

Will good technique, you cab still tamp acceptably well with the (55mm) Gaggia tamper. Just gently tamp the sides which get missed at the start! Remember to tap downward before ramping as it settles the grounds together and evens them out.


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

fatboyslim said:


> we actually gauge whether the grind is within specification by using a gaggia baby but usually its on the fast side.


Have you done any research to see if grinding finer would bring you more customers?



fatboyslim said:


> Taylors espresso blend is nice when its been freshly roasted (like 30 minutes ago)


That's normally considered too fresh to drink. Have you cupped it over several days to see how the tastes develop?



fatboyslim said:


> usually when its in the supermarket its a few months old.


Is there any way that you can control the stock rotation and get it out there quicker? Again this may lead to increased sales?


----------



## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

Oh, and Al, you may also be overdosing if you are filling the basket to the brim. I'd start with around 14 grammes for a double and see how you get on from there. You can use a crappy 7g spoon from Bodum or wherever to measure. It'll be roughly a level spoon when either grounds or beans (grinds expand volume slightly from beans, but not by that much).


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I've had wet puck in the past and it was fixed through two changes:

1. Increased dose

2. Fresh, better quality beans


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

Thanks for the replies folks.

I'm going to stand firm at the moment and stick with supermarket coffee, although my wife did buy me a tin of Illy stuff the other day. Would it be better to order beans from the likes of Coffee Bean Shop Ltd and ask for them to be ground for an espresso machine? Has to be better than the supermarket stuff eh?

It strikes me that there's going to be no improvement until I get a proper tamper so I've just ordered the Espresso Gear Barista from Coffee Hit. The question of adding more or less coffee to the basket will have to wait until its arrival but in the meantime thanks for your help. I'm not sure if I've embarked on a science or an art form (latte art excluded) but it doesn't half get a grip of you.......

Al


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

The tamper and the tamp is pretty much irrelevant until you've got the grind sorted. The grind changes slightly according to machine and the beans. There really is no way round it, but of course it is up to you to do as you please. Even a second hand mc2 for £60 ish would immeasurably improve things


----------



## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

At £30 you can grab a Porlex Mini like I'm using here, or you might be able to get a Zassenhaus for ten or twenty second-hand.

Some people will turn their noses up, but a big improvement would be to get freshly ground, and store it carefully (push air out of bag, then argue whether or not to refrigerate). When I first got my Gaggia, Monmouth Coffee were kind enough to approximate a suitable grind for the Classic. The pour ended up only slightly slower than ideal.


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

OK folks. Today I tried extra grounds in the basket, knocking it to level them off before doing the 30lb tamp on the scales. Got an absolute cracker of a puck and about 5ml of 'stuff'.

Plan B - underfill the basket but with the same 30lb tamp using the bathroom scales. The puck was swimming (literally) in so much water that I spent about 10 minutes cleaning the machine. Have to say though, that I got a reasonable shot so there's some improvement.

Plan C. Stood on the bathroom scales and they indicated 84lbs. Changed batteries, stood on scales again - 84lbs. I'm not 84lbs. Borrowed scales from neighbour. I'm surprised the plastic tamper is still in one piece.

Third bash of the day produced a reasonable amount of tasty espresso with a soggy to wet puck.

Onwards and sideways........

Al


----------



## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

Just to add to this soggy puck escapade... I always seem to have a soggy puck at the moment with about 1mm of surface liquid but the shot tastes good to me.

I'm getting about 15g-16g in to the basket and it is full to the brim in a standard Gaggia Classic double basket using a naked portafilter. I can not get any more in so how can I up the dosage? Any tips? Should I be looking at a VST basket now? Used to get a great puck using taylors beans but struggled pulling a decent tasting shot. Tried using Happy Donkey Italian beans and currently using Hasbean Blake and just seems to be really wet. Good tasting and timing though.

Should I be that worried as long as I keep on back flushing regularly? Or is the wet puck a sign of technique?


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

VST basket will produce a soggy puck time after time! I find the shot quality to be better , others may disagree


----------



## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

As a side thought, what happens if I tamp too hard/lightly?


----------



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

@onemac When you say "5ml of stuff" do you mean you managed to choke the machine and only got a little bit of coffee into your cup? I'm really surprised you can do this with store bought beans.

@gazbea There is usually a tiny bit of liquid on top of the puck using my VST basket too but it produces fantastic shots. If you can only fit 15g into your double basket i'd say you're either not breaking up the stuck together grinds or you're not tapping the PF on the counter top? This will settle the grinds and fill in any air gaps so you can then get more in the basket. I can get 19g in my basket then after a stir and a couple of taps I don't even need to level it off because the coffee is below the rim ready for tamping.

Maybe a video or photo of your technique would help us help you a bit more?


----------



## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

Cheers chimps... Will have to investigate tonight to see what is happening with my dosage


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I don't find any significant difference in volume between a VST basket and a standard double so I'm not sure that a VST will help you updose. Grinder performance influences the amount you can fit in a basket, I find.

How about not levelling off before tamping? Just tap the PF on the table to settle the grinds then tamp.

IMHO the VST puck are not necessarily soggier than standard basket pucks, but they are more fragile because they are thinner due to the grinds being spread over a wider area. But everyone has a different experience.


----------



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

They're fab looking pucks there Mike


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Hehe yeah, bit grim


----------



## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

Definitely going to have to figure out my dosing problem then. Mine look nothing like that.

Actually I tell a lie... They look similar but only once the top 1mm of fluid has been removed.

Is under dosing the main cause of a wet puck?


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Well first thing to say is that photo was taken using old beans so the colouration is very dark. The main thing to take from it is the difference in shape between the VST (left) and standard (right)... VST is wider diameter and thinner.

As for cause of wet puck, I can only surmise that it has to do with the degree of extraction of solids. If a dose is low then the water diffusion within the particles will wash a lot away, leaving a high proportion of water within the particle structure. When this reaches a saturation point then any additional water doesn't flow through the puck as easily, creating sogginess. Pure conjecture of course. And there's always the influence of the empty headspace between the shower screen and the top of the tamped puck. If this is large (for example if pulling a double shot in a triple basket) then there will be more water floating on the puck afterwards.


----------



## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

Up-dosing may be the key then by the sounds of it... 15g/16g with extraction rate around 25 seconds for 2oz.

Really need to get me a decent 58mm tamper sorted out too!


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Glenn said:


> Have you done any research to see if grinding finer would bring you more customers?


When you are producing 45 x 227g bags a minute for 18 hours it can be hard to ensure the grind is anywhere close to the target you set as the burr plates are prone to overheating even though they are cryogenically cooled.

We perform the 'Gaggia test' as a means to ensure the grind is sufficiently coarse enough as to avoid choking a machine. This was due to a customer severely burning themselves using Taylors espresso grounds so this is our due diligence, but honestly the grind setting we have for espresso is simply finer than the omnigrind used in the rest of our coffees. There is no possible way to specifically grind for even a small proportion of the espresso user market, especially considering what proportion might be using pressurized baskets. On a good day you may get a bag of espresso ground that works perfectly in your machine, on others it may be way to coarse but should still produce a decentish shot due to the absolute consistency.



Glenn said:


> That's normally considered too fresh to drink. Have you cupped it over several days to see how the tastes develop?


Yes but due to the fineness of the grind, it releases sufficient CO2 in the time before we test it for it to produce a decent shot, we also test in a single basket.

As its a blend, it can vary from week to week depending on what coffee we have in at the time so it will always be slightly different cupping it but the freshest shots are usually the best IMO.



Glenn said:


> Is there any way that you can control the stock rotation and get it out there quicker? Again this may lead to increased sales?


 No, unfortunately not. We have no control over what supermarkets do with their stock once they take it off our hands. We just provide guidelines for them. The additional infrastructure that would be required to ensure quicker stock rotation is just not viable in the current climate, even considering we are still experiencing sales above forecast.

Also I only work in Quality so I'm not even the right person to answer these questions


----------



## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

I figured out my problem I think. I changed my method to do a couple of distribution taps on the worktop whilst filling and I managed to get 17/18g in. Pulled a shot and got a dry Puck. Unfortunately this resulted in a slow shot, almost choked.

Looks like I'll be working to get my grind right again. Bit coarser again now! Grrrrrr


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Why are you trying to get 18g in?


----------



## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

Not particularly trying to get 18g in, just trying to up the dosage from 15/16g as I'm getting a very wet Puck. Had to change my method as the basket was topping out at 16g


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

Perfect thread for me this and very very interested in these posts, I've also just got a gaggia classic for Xmas, my first ever machine. Also I'm currently using taylors aswell ! I bought some Ikea stuff cos it was cheap to practice with and no matter how much I put in or how hard I tamp I can't get a double past 14 seconds! I'm measuring using lined shot glasses. Using the taylors I'm bang on 25s usually it seems to be working very well. Only problem I'm having is same as you, about 1mm of water on top of the puck when you take the filter out, how long are you supposed to leave it in the machine. Also I have a question, when knocking out the puck, what edge should I actually be banging against a surface, at the moment even though I have a little water on top of the puck I'm finding it hard to get the puck out but am I knocking it out wrong ?


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

I'll also add I've not weighed what I'm putting in but its 2 level scoops of the spoon provided. Currently using the supplied pressurized 'perfetta crema' basket as its all I have


----------



## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

hey there brun... Welcome to the forum and world of coffee. How much coffee are you banging in to the portafilter? I'm assuming that with your Gaggia Classic being new you have a pressurised portafilter with the crema widget?

I had the exact same problem with yourself and struggling to get past ~14 seconds and very much like dirty water. No matter what I tried, numerous brands of store bought pre-ground coffee and even fresh ground coffee from the market I could not get it to be anything like it should be.

In the end, it was all down to the grind. Get yourself a decent grinder [especially] and tamper. You will notice much better shots straight away. I still haven't got my tamper sorted out and still using the plastic one but everybody on here will stress to you that to get a decent espresso shot, invest in a good grinder and fresh beans


----------



## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

May also be worth looking at ditching the portafilter supplied and getting a naked portafilter (Happy Donkey are good for these). Can see exactly what is going on with your extract then too


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

ive got a proper tamper on the way, but at the moment my Taylors is giving me the right amount in the right amount of time

ive tried some out of date Starbucks espresso and that comes out way too fast too like the cheap Ikea stuff, but the Taylors has been spot on and makes a nice americano









maybe i got a good fresh bag of Taylors ?

im dosing 2 level scoops of the supplied spoon

also can i ask, whats a VST basket ?


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

chimpsinties said:


> @onemac When you say "5ml of stuff" do you mean you managed to choke the machine and only got a little bit of coffee into your cup? I'm really surprised you can do this with store bought beans.


Yup, pretty much. I used Illy espresso ground coffee but the amount would have probably been nearer 10ml - I shall remember that taste for the rest of my life.



chimpsinties said:


> @gazbeaMaybe a video or photo of your technique would help us help you a bit more?


Photography gear looked out for a top class photo session tomorrow.

Al


----------



## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

Going to have a good go at it this weekend and finally put this sloppy Puck to rest.

I'm annoyed that I'm now at the complete opposite side to where I started!

Sloppy Puck + good extraction + uneven distribution = tastes good

Dry Puck + slow extraction + better distribution = machine choke + 1oz in 25 seconds!

Don't you just love this hobby







lol


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

Any updates onemac?


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

Hi brun

Still plodding away and getting the occasional drinkable espresso. I'm awaiting a new tamper and marked shot glasses which should improve my reporting back, if not the actual espresso. Will take a trip through to Macbeans in Aberdeen sometime this week for replacement coffee. Spoke to the wife and the grinder will have to wait for a couple of months - I can't justify a hand grinder and a machine for the worktop.

Incidentally, tried to order some stuff from a reputable firm and was hit with a surcharge because of my 'remote location'. £16.90 postage for items worth just over £42. Looked into the cost of a pick up and delivery of said items in case I had to return them - £7.95 (same courier). This hobby is expensive enough without the likes of that.

Will report back when conditions improve....

Al


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

I think the lined glasses are a must, maybe I've got lucky with my bag of taylors espresso but I've not had any problems with it at all its been spot on


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

OK - apologies for dragging this thread out of the history books.

I should remind everybody that I'm using ground coffee from a reputable supplier (Jabberwocky at the moment) and processing through my Classic. Since the early days three weeks ago I've got some 2oz double lined glasses and a real tamper (what a difference). Anyway, I'm begining to discover the truth behind being able to vary the grind but for the moment I'm stuck without a grinder and I have several questions based on advice offered in this thread amongst others:

1. Tamp harder or not - how would a more firm tamp affect the same density of ground coffee (say 16g in the pressurised classic basket)? Would a lighter tamp lead to increased pour rates.

2. Soggy puck - I know now they don't really matter but when I take the portafilter off the classic I always end up having drips all over the place, even when I leave it on the machine for a few minutes. Anything wrong with my basket/portafilter?

3. Pour rates - I'm getting 3-4oz in 25 seconds, that's switch on the machine and 25 seconds later I've filled both shot glasses three quarters. How can I reduce the flow rate?

4. I've tried 20g in the basket but end up with the screw head imprinted on the puck. I've seen 'serious tampage' employed on a double basket filled to the brim and I've also seen an elderly lady hardly tamp at all and yet her commercial machine nearly choke. With my fixed quality of grounds, should I put in less and tamp more or do the exact opposite?

(I would say at this stage that I have actually tried all the different combos above but I'm buggered if I can be consistent).

5. Puck - when I do get a decent puck it's almost impossible to bash out on the worktop (plastic cutting board). When it does eventually come out it's all crumbly - it's never come out clean yet. Any particular reason for this? If I do a light tamp I can rinse it out under the tap but if I do a 20g shot and tamp hard I have to use a knife to cut the puck out. Note - knock box to be ordered shortly.

6. Acidic brew - and watery too. If I stop the pull at 2fl oz (18 seconds) I get a very acidic taste. If I let it run for longer it's watery. How can I get a slower flow rate to get me a 25 second pull without being able to alter the ground size?

Now I am aware that most of the questions above are interlinked but I have many, many more and trust me when I say that I will get a grinder but my point is that I should be able to pull a decent shot, at a decent flow rate, ending up with close to the magic 2fl oz, even given that I've purchased grounds which are a defined size? Surely I have to be able to master even the basic techniques before embarking on changing ground sizes?

Any help with the above will be gratefully received - I'm having trouble justifying the cost of the espresso machine, let alone the accessories I've just bought and that's before any bottomless portafilters/vst baskets/scales and grinders are looked at.

Al


----------



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

As a barista, your tamp is like your handwriting, totally unique and personal. you will have more of an opportunity to develop your style once you have a grinder, adjusting the grinder to suit your tamp. while using pre-ground, your tamp is the only way you have of controlling extraction time. Unforunately aswell, pre-ground varies in courseness with every batch, in the same way you have to keep udjusting a home grinder to compensate for Air Temp, Ambient Temp, Humidity, Age of Beans, Type of bean etc etc etc, my guess is they more or less have a default setting.

Anyway, 1) yes you can change your tamp to slighty alter rate of extration, though extremes either way, course or fine cannot be corrected with tamp.

2) It is unlikely there is anything wrong with the portafilter or basket, we all sometimes end up with a soggy puck, for me it only tends to happen when dialing in my grinder for a new bean and go too fine, it also used to happen alot in the early days before i had a grinder.

3) In your position all you can really do is tamp harder(don't be afraid, I am naturally a little heavy anyway, but in the old days you could have found me pretty much standing on my tamper to try and correct a rubbish pre-ground! Using coffee as fresh as is humanly possible will also really help you, make sure you buy from a roastery who will roast, grind and ship your Joe in one day. once at home minimise exposure to air, moisture, heat etc by taking your scoop from the bag and immediately rolling the bag tightly shut and cling filming it or wrapping a rubber band around to keep it tight and putting in an airtight container somewhere cool, dark and dry(don't you dare put it in the fridge!).

4) Basically, this business is like sorcery, things happen sometimes with no ryme or reason, something that works for one will almost never work for somebody else! Go by feel, rather than instruction, keep experimenting until you find your own balance. Though having the puck touching the brew head will generally mean a clog and a post brew explosion when removing the portafilter!

5) I don't recall ever having to cut a spent puck out with a knife! a knock box should remedy this.

6) an under-extracted shot will usually taste sour, if anything longer than this is coming out watery it could be one of two things, or both, 1, Channeling, water will always find the easiest course, therefor any imperfection in your tamp(among other factors) will cause water to find its way through small channels in the puck rather than evenly through the whole thing. this can cause both bitter(over extracted) and watery tasting coffee as it will have only extracted a very small amount of actual coffee on its way through, but over extracted that small amount pulling out tannins which cause the bitterness. Check for worm-holes in the spent puck. 2, if your coffee is stale and dry, which happens in terms of minutes rather than days once ground, it becomes even more prone to channeling and even if it doesn't, many of the volatile compounds that give the coffee its body and flavour have already reacted with the atmosphere and you are left with the tannic 'ruffage'!

I really hope this helps you. Now, Go forth ye intrepid barista and PLAY!!


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

To slow things down you need more resistance. But without grind control everything is a compromise. A firmer tamp might help but could also introduce early blonding. Increasing the dose is an option (a thicker puck has more resistance) but there are space limitations and it would also change the flavour profile - no bad thing but something to know. You could adjust the OPV on your machine to reduce flow pressure and hence speed, but that may be a little drastic and again there are limits - the pressure is needed to create an 'express' brewing environment.


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

Onemac I know your in the same boat as me, I now have normal pucks, I think, since I changed to none pressurized baskets, they knock out easy, mine were like yours using the supplied baskets.

Also I'm finding the longer I've had the pre ground the faster its coming out, the taylors was bang on the money at first but the last few scoops out the bag were nearer 20s.

I think like myself, a set of scales is also required


----------



## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

onemac said:


> ...
> 
> 1. Tamp harder or not - how would a more firm tamp affect the same density of ground coffee (say 16g in the pressurised classic basket)? Would a lighter tamp lead to increased pour rates.


I think Mike and Outlaw may have already answered this one but here a my thoughts. You basically have 4 variables to control the flow rate of brew water through the coffee puck and hence the amount of time the water is in contact with the coffee. These are the pump pressure, coarseness of grind, tamp pressure and depth of coffee column (a larger dose will give a deeper column for a given filter basket). The water pressure can be altered by adjusting the OPV as Mike suggested which allows you to reduce the pressure of the water actually hitting the puck. I would not recommend this as it is a relatively involved modification. Most people tend to maintain a constant tamp pressure and then adjust the dose and grind to suit their machine, the coffee and environmental conditions. Without a grinder then you could alter your tamp pressure in conjuction with changing the dose to affect the flow rate. The problem with this approach is that it will be difficult to achieve consistent, repeatable results.



onemac said:


> 2. Soggy puck - I know now they don't really matter but when I take the portafilter off the classic I always end up having drips all over the place, even when I leave it on the machine for a few minutes. Anything wrong with my basket/portafilter?


I would not worry too much about how soggy the puck is - the main thing is how the coffee tastes. Your portafilter sounds fine although the amount of sogginess you describe does sound quite inconvenient. Usually much of the excess water from the top of the puck is sucked back up into the machine and deposited into the drip tray at the end of the pour, as the solenoid valve rapidly releases the pressure from the puck (in the same way that backflushing works). However, if suitable pressure was not established during the shot, then this will not really happen. It sounds like more pressure is required through creating more resistence in the puck and a slower pour rate - see #1 above.



onemac said:


> 3. Pour rates - I'm getting 3-4oz in 25 seconds, that's switch on the machine and 25 seconds later I've filled both shot glasses three quarters. How can I reduce the flow rate?


Create more resistence in the puck either through increasing the dose or a firmer tamp or perhaps both.



onemac said:


> 5. Puck - when I do get a decent puck it's almost impossible to bash out on the worktop (plastic cutting board). When it does eventually come out it's all crumbly - it's never come out clean yet. Any particular reason for this? If I do a light tamp I can rinse it out under the tap but if I do a 20g shot and tamp hard I have to use a knife to cut the puck out. Note - knock box to be ordered shortly.


A knock box should help you to knock out the puck more easily.



onemac said:


> 6. Acidic brew - and watery too. If I stop the pull at 2fl oz (18 seconds) I get a very acidic taste. If I let it run for longer it's watery. How can I get a slower flow rate to get me a 25 second pull without being able to alter the ground size?


The sour taste is caused by underextraction of the coffee. The coffee in the basket needs more time in contact with the brew water which can be achieved by crating more resistence in the coffee puck. Usually one would use a combination of dose and grind adjustments to do this but without a grinder, concentrate on changing the dose and perhaps altering tamp pressure.


----------



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I think I may have said this before but a video of your method might help everyone spot any glaring errors. The rest is just practice and consistency.

I know you've heard it all before but sadly a decent grinder and fresh beans are going to solve 99% of all your problems.

Best of luck


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

Thanks for the detailed replies folks.

@chimpsinties - I appreciate that fresh beans and a grinder will improve things but I'm having difficulty trying to justify further expense to the wife given that I don't seem to be able to work the Classic with the additional accessories already purchased









So I started this morning using three weights of tamp - tamper weight only (Motta 58mm curved), light pressure (10-20lbs) and almost 'feet off the floor with all my (fairly substantial) weight. Well, perhaps the last one is not strictly true but you get the picture. The actual method employed to transfer the coffee to the basket was to employ the WDT to the grounds in the tin, use a teaspoon to transfer the grounds to the glass which is placed on the kitchen scales (for now), weigh the required amount, WDT in the glass, pour grounds into the basket in three stages levelling and tapping the portafilter each time on the counter, WDT in the basket and tamp (phew!). Because I'm using the supplied twin spout portafilter supplied with the Classic, I used a book to prop up the handle so that everything was level as I tamped.

I experimented with 14g, 15g, 16g, 17g and 18g and the four tamper weights described above and tried to keep the tamp as level as possible. I ran out of grounds on the second 18g fill







so the results are hardly comprehensive given the change to 'Blake'.

Interestingly there was very little fl oz difference between the different weight of tamp for each measure although for each 20 second brew there was a marked difference in where blonding (or my interpretation of it) started. The other thing I noticed was of the two shot glasses the right one always ended up with less espresso. So I spent an hour levelling the machine.

So, 14-18g with three different tamp weights and the only difference to my palate was that the more coffee, the less watery the taste. It must be a feature of the pressurised portafilter that the flow rate remains virtually the same? I think the 17g weight was the more palatable so I did a few more brews using a medium tamp and 17 seconds on the clock. Each time the result was acidic which I expected.

Two questions? Firstly, would there be any difference between say 17g in the double basket as opposed to 17g in the single basket? Secondly, I noticed a couple of times that the flow was spurting. Is this from a badly tamped basket? I tried to keep everything else the same - technique of priming the boiler, heating shot glasses and waiting for the machine to return to working temperature before pressing the brew switch.

Oh and one last thing - where would I get a vst basket and what weight would you reccommend?

Thanks

Al


----------



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I really would be interested in seeing your routine. Can't we get a video?

You don't really have to use two glasses just cos the PF has two spouts. Because I weigh the resulting espresso I just have one one espresso cup on the scales and the 2 spouts dribbled into it fine. Just to confirm, you are only getting 1oz in each glass aren't you? not 2oz in each!

I think what you're finding is the ability of the pressurised PF to correct errors in the coffee/grind/tamp and the limit as to what tamping can actually do to store bought pre-ground coffee. When you've tamped, even if you did it hard, I bet it isn't very hard to get the coffee out of the PF again is it. When you've got it ground fine enough and tamped right you could almost knock the PF upside down and the coffee would still stay in there (this is before you've put any water through it obviously)

Sadly, your wife's logic has put you in a bit of a catch 22. You'll never get the best out of what you've got as it is, however many gadgets or methods you try. I know I've said it before and it's not what you want to hear so this is the last time I promise. Until you get a good grinder, you're going to be pretty limited as to what you can achieve.

I doubt you'd fit 17g/18g in a single basket so not really worth trying.

PS I got my VST 18g from CoffeeHit http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/la-marzocco-strada-basket-17g/p863 They're just branded for the manufacturer they originally developed them for I think.


----------



## stoobydale (Oct 27, 2011)

Onemac, I understand your woes, this is all new to me and still on the steep learning curve. Getting a decent grinder made all the difference to me, I was struggling along with the Porlex hand grinder set at 2nd click (tried different settings but no good). Which I thought would be too fine as I found on here a thread saying that 4-6 should be good for espresso. Was getting almost double the volume in 25 seconds, I have since bought a second hand MC2 and got it dialled in, it's fantastic, massive difference, proper shots in the right time. Even changing to different beans it's usually within 2 full turns to get it right again. 17-18g of coffee is what I use all the time now in the standarg Gaggia double basket. Haven't had any soggy pucks since.


----------



## Danielowenuk (Aug 12, 2011)

I have recently purchased two bits of kit that you are probably thinking of doing.

I had the gaggia with a pressurised basket, and no grinder.

Moved to EP HQ Basket (cheaper than VST) http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/ep-hq-double-basket/p859

When I tried the same grind, with the same tamp force using the different basket it extracted in about 15 seconds and had zero crema.

Ignore what you are seeing as blonding, with a pressurised basket it's impossible to see (so much air in the coffee it looks blonde the second you switch it on).

Now I have grinder it's really obvious how much difference it makes to speed of extraction.


----------



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Ah ha!! well there is your no1 issue, I didn't realize the gaggia came with a Pressurized portafilter! This will be responsible for the watery puck, when a shot is finished the drying comes from a combination of draining from the bottom and the solenoid evacuating pressure from the top, the pressurized basket will be stopping proper drainage from the bottom. It is often also the reason for the fast pour, while it may seem absurd that the pressurized PF would increase flow, what can happen is that water passes through the puck where it is met with resistance as it tries to exit the basket, this can cause a lifting action on the puck making it vulnerable to breaking up, cracking, channeling etc, this could also be part of the reason you are ending up with a sloppy mess. They also clog for a passtime! The trouble is, without very fresh coffee, the Pressurized basket is probably your best option flavour wise. You should try a standard basket and see how you like the results anyway.

Oh by the way, it will also be why you are getting uneven distribution as the shot will be spurting out of the basket all over the place, a bit like post coital urination.


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I have a spare 18g basket that came with my naked PF. I can post it to you if you like. Should fit standard 58mm.

VST basket is the way to go if you can justify the money for them.


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

surely a VST basket isnt required at this stage and is a bit expensive when other items are probably gonna need to be bought ?

a standard basket on Ebay is about £4 delivered, i got mine from gaggiamanualservice on there, think he posts on here

your puck issue will be solved if you switch to a normal basket straight away, then you can worry about taste etc, i had the same puck issues as you and now im on a normal basket its fine, i also had to spoon out the puck and it had lots of water on top, now they knock out easy with only a few drips to worry about which i think is pretty normal


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

brun said:


> surely a VST basket isnt required at this stage and is a bit expensive when other items are probably gonna need to be bought ?
> 
> a standard basket on Ebay is about £4 delivered, i got mine from gaggiamanualservice on there, think he posts on here
> 
> your puck issue will be solved if you switch to a normal basket straight away, then you can worry about taste etc, i had the same puck issues as you and now im on a normal basket its fine, i also had to spoon out the puck and it had lots of water on top, now they knock out easy with only a few drips to worry about which i think is pretty normal


A VST basket is absolutely not a must-have. It delivers benefits, but they are imperceptible to beginner baristas and the espresso industry has thrived for decades without these baskets. I would certainly recommend upgrading at some future point, but when money is tight and you're still learning, spend it on good beans instead.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

What he said ^ ^


----------



## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

I must admit, I did not realise you were using a pressurised basket. That will explain why the pour times are relatively consistent - the pressurised basket is providing most of the resistance itself and is the bottle neck. It makes little difference what resistance you create in the puck. Replacing the pressurised basket with any non-pressurised basket will be an improvement, leaving the puck responsible for all resistance to the brew water. Of course, until you have control over the grind, this could be a curse rather than a blessing.

VST baskets will only really make any difference once you are grinding your own beans.

I know it has been said before but grinding your own beans with a non-pressurised basket will solve the majority of the problems you are describing.


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

Again, thanks very much chaps.

@chimpsinties - I doubt I have the technical competence to do a video and post it on yahoo-tube but the message has finally hit home - grinder ordered







Also bottomless filter which I didn't know will come with a basket.

@Danielowenuk - looks to be a fairly good (and cheap) basket. Might give it a go, thanks.

@fatboyslim - thanks for the offer but as you can see from above I'm sorted.

To my dear (and long-suffering) wife I apologise in advance. But listen dear, I got it in the sale...... at 50% off MRP..... I just couldn't pass on that much of a bargain - you say so yourself so you see - it's your fault..... really









And now it's a trip through to MacBEANS in Aberdeen for some supplies. At least I'm saving a fiver in postage.

Al


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

Keep us updated


----------



## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

What grinder did you go with in the end? Hopefully now decent espresso is at your fingertips and your wife will forgive everything! Besides, how often does she go clothes/shoe shopping and spend up? At least you will use the grinder more than once







lol


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

gazbea said:


> What grinder did you go with in the end? Hopefully now decent espresso is at your fingertips and your wife will forgive everything! Besides, how often does she go clothes/shoe shopping and spend up? At least you will use the grinder more than once
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I went for the MC2 doserless as I can always buy supermarket ground for the cafetiere.

The wife only buys sale stuff that she apparently 'needs'. I'm going to have to pitch the grinder really well and to that end I've bookmarked about fifteen pages which insist that a grinder is vital. Trouble is her comment will probably be 'it's only coffee' or 'for goodness sake, what a faff for such a piddling little amount'. There's just no understanding the female species is there?

Al


----------



## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

Sounds very familiar!







haha

Luckily my Mrs didn't argue as she saw how stroppy I got when it didn't work without and realised it would be easier to live with me for the cost of a grinder! Lol


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

im lucky i guess, my mrs loves coffee, shes happy ive got my gaggia classic as it will be coming with us when we move in together, and she has had barista training by Costa so she knows what she is doing


----------



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

My wonderful other half actually bought my Mazzer Mini for me for my birthday!


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

ive just got some hasbean blake @onemac, borrowed my mates scales, put 14g in the double basket, i got 2oz in 19s, guess ill try 15g+ next time

(a grinder will be bought in March







)


----------



## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

Definitely sounds like you are on the right track! 14g is on the light side. I got no where near right both taste and volume wise without a sloppy Puck until the dose was upped to 18g. So much better


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

I've just been watching some vids on making espresso - the chap says to 'Hand the espresso to the customer within 3 seconds as it goes sour the longer you leave it'. I guess me admiring my work for a few minutes before drinking is not helping......

Al


----------



## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

That would make sense. Mine always taste a little on the sour side but I always tidy up and clean before I drink it!


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

i clean up too before i drink mine lol, ill try dosing more, might be time for another soon


----------



## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

If you struggle getting more in then a couple of thwacks on the worktop usually does the trick and fills the gaps in the basket


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

i thought 14g was gonna be a push when i first put it into the basket, but once i tamped it down it went down way more than i expected


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

brun said:


> i clean up too before i drink mine lol, ill try dosing more, might be time for another soon


Yup - I've just got my new scales and 18g of pre-ground stuff is almost a (double) basketfull so I'm experimenting with just filling the basket and doing WDT then NSEW with the old finger. Waiting for the MC2 so I can get into it big time.

Al


----------



## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

Once you receive the MC2 you'll be glad you did! I doubted in my head that the grind wouldn't make any difference at all but after playing wiyth the grinder when I got it I was amazed at how much of a difference it made.

And being able to tweak to the n'th degree makes all the difference


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

Just to update you all......

Last night the young lad wanted some hot chocolate so I switched on the Classic and after about 5 minutes flicked the steam switch on. Turning the steam knob ended with the 'wrong' steam so I turned off for a few seconds. Then it was milk into the mug (yes, the milk pitcher I bought just doesn't cut it) and off we go. End result was cracking but what happened next surprised me. After switching off the steam switch I purged the brewhead and stuffed 16g of grounds in the basket and tamped quite hard. The result was almost 4fl oz of the least acidic espresso yet and easily the best shot produced to date. I'm sure that when I eventually receive my grinder and bottomless portafilter the resulting brew will be less watery and much more tasty.

Al

PS I do know that it should be nearer 2fl oz for a double espresso in 20-30 secs but anything short of 3fl oz using pre-ground coffee with my current pressurised basket results in undrinkable brown stuff, useless even for the most dilute of milky milk drinks.....


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

onemac said:


> Just to update you all......
> 
> Last night the young lad wanted some hot chocolate so I switched on the Classic and after about 5 minutes flicked the steam switch on. Turning the steam knob ended with the 'wrong' steam so I turned off for a few seconds. Then it was milk into the mug (yes, the milk pitcher I bought just doesn't cut it) and off we go. End result was cracking but what happened next surprised me. After switching off the steam switch I purged the brewhead and stuffed 16g of grounds in the basket and tamped quite hard. The result was almost 4fl oz of the least acidic espresso yet and easily the best shot produced to date. I'm sure that when I eventually receive my grinder and bottomless portafilter the resulting brew will be less watery and much more tasty.
> 
> ...


sounds like you have discovered temperature surfing by accident


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

should your grinder not have arrived by now ?


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

brun said:


> should your grinder not have arrived by now ?


http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?2670-Happy-Donkey-%28www.happydonkey.co.uk%29/page2

Al


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

i cant wait to hear your results as i want one asap


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

I've just had a double with 18g, Blake, 19seconds, tamped as hard as possible too, gonna experiment at the weekend


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

brun said:


> i cant wait to hear your results as i want one asap


Here are the results:

A massive fail









First of all I received the grinder late yesterday and decided to wait until today as I didn't want to lose sleep through caffeine poisoning. I eagerly set up the Classic, MC2, scales, and had all the ancillaries to hand. With the laptop set up next to the grinder I went to the Wiki tab on a decent forum (with a brown and green banner) and found a link to Iberital MC2 manual. The first thing it says after unpacking (and being one of the unlucky ones not to be supplied with beans) is to turn the worm screw on the top right of the machine as far anti-clockwise as it will go. I gave up after 5 minutes and threw some beans in to test. They were no good - even for the cafetiere so I spent another 5 minutes turning the same worm screw clockwise.

Now I should say at this point that I used supermarket beans as I was trying to dial in the grinder and didn't want to waste decent ones (on order). I used Jabberwocky pre-ground form Hasbean as a rough guide knowing that I needed to grind finer as 18g of those was producing 3fl oz in just over 20 seconds.

The second thing I should mention is that I'm using a naked portafilter from Happy Donkey which was tested yesterday with the Jabberwocky resulting in several coffee showers so at this point I concentrated on dosing, levelling and tamping in order to get consistency.

Back to the grinder - I turned the worm screw one complete revolution and ran another 18g of beans through and was surprised at how much was left in the spout so I unplugged and cleaned the thing with a brush and hoover. I used the stale grinds along with the fresh to pull a shot anyway, just to see if the timing was correct. It wasn't. Clean grinder and 18g of beans produced just over 16g of grounds, even with 'tapping' the back of the machine to clear the spout. I had to take off the hopper and tilt the grinder so that all the grounds went into the tub but I ended up with 17.64g so decided to give that a go with a heavy tamp (the grounds looked finer than the Jabberwocky). Nine seconds and I didn't even bother tasting. Three turns of the worm screw later another 17+g was in the basket and this time it lasted fifteen seconds before I was sprayed in coffee. Not to be beaten I continued to turn the wormscrew one complete revolution per grind and finally opened the second bag of beans







Lunch was a Bagel and cream cheese with fresh orange juice - watered down from concentrate of course.

After lunch I swapped the basket over to the pressurised double spout but took out the little plastic bung turning it into a normal portafilter. Using the same degree of grind I achieved almost a 20 second pour for the 2fl oz so I turned the worm screw another two full turns and managed 28 seconds - winner. Well not really - it still tasted very, very sour which was massively disappointing. I made sure the Classic was at the correct temperature before pulling each shot so I assume it's the cheap beans. I swapped the basket back to the naked portafilter and the 15 second shots returned so I tried tamping softer with marginal success. At this point I had had enough and almost advertised the lot on the 'For Sale' board but I'll give it a go tomorrow with the half bag of beans I have left.

I have to say I'm disappointed in how much grounds stick in the spout but it may be because the machine is new - or it may be static. Either way my head hurts tonight, probably from too much caffeine, but the house smells lovely.......

Onwards and sideways....

Al


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Others may be along to offer advice but my only advice would be to stick to one weight and try to dial that it.

It won't be helping you at all tune the grinder in by adjusting the weight as well as the grind size.

Try to keep all other factors, (temp surfing, tamping, distributing and which basket you use) as consistent as possible and only alter the grind size.

Fresh beans I would maybe aim for 17g? Older beans and definitely supermarket beans you probably want to try 18 or 18.5g but these are only bench marks.

You will eventually find the right balance of dose over grind size to reach good flow resistance and therefore extraction time.

Next comes adjusting grind for correct flavour.

Enjoy


----------



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I might have asked this before but is there no way we can see a video of your whole technique from start to finish. Maybe someone could spot something obvious you're doing wrong.

You CAN'T give up after just one day. It takes ages to get used to a new machine. Don't rush and enjoy the journey.

Maybe the MC2 has too much adjustment for the beginner and something stepped might be better to begin with? That way it's either mostly right or totally wrong and not 55 steps between


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

Jesus, good luck mate, keep at it, ill need your mistakes and findings to help me when I get mine lol, don't use the pressurized basket without the widget, look at it under the light, it only has one hole, its not like a standard basket


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

I forgot to mention that on a couple of occasions when I took the naked portafilter off the machine the puck stuck to the brewhead. This may have been on a couple of the less firm tamps but one was definately with 18g in the basket.

@fatboyslim - I'm going to write-off today as a learning experience and start fresh tomorrow.

@chimpsinties - the only video device I have is the phone and I've tried on a couple of occasions to upload but to no avail.



brun said:


> Jesus, good luck mate, keep at it, ill need your mistakes and findings to help me when I get mine lol, don't use the pressurized basket without the widget, look at it under the light, it only has one hole, its not like a standard basket


Nah, I used the normal basket supplied with the naked portafilter and swapped it into the twin spout handle after taking out the bit of plastic.

I'm seriously thinking of asking MikeHag if he fancies making a few quid one evening. Might be worth the 250 mile round trip?

Al


----------



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I've uploaded vids from my camera to photobucket in the past. Have you tried that?


----------



## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

I agree a video would help us to diagnose what is going on.

Unfortunately grind retention is fairly normal in grinders although I understand Baratza grinders are better than most. Furthermore, you may find that if you clean out the shoot between grinding you may get inconsistent doses - the coffee in the shoot is pushed out when fresh coffee is ground behind it. If you are worried about the freshness of the coffee being ground or you have changed beans or grind then run some sacrificial coffee through the grinder before grinding to make sure that all the grounds in the shoot are fresh and at the correct grind size.

I notice you say that you achieve different shot times using the same basket in different portafilters - one naked and one with spouts. Assuming both portafilters are unpressurised, then this suggests that either the grind was different (perhaps due to grind retention in the grinder whilst adjusting the grind between shots) or the distributing and tamping is different between the two portafilters (perhaps the tamping with the spouts is not quite as hard?) The difference between the portafilters sounds quite pronounced which suggests grind differences or perhaps channelling. Did the puck have any holes in its surface after the pour and did it blond early and speed up significantly mid pour?


----------



## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Al it sounds like you're enjoying yourself! There are a couple of ways of dealing with the grind retention:

- work out how much gets stuck in the chute and up the amount of beans you chuck in by that amount and do a small 'flush' first to get rid of the stale grounds. Not ideal as it wastes beans.

- Create an implement to get the grounds out of the chute without moving the grinder. I made mine from a paper clip and it seems to work pretty well. Photo below.










These are both if you want to weigh the beans before hand of course. I used to chuck the whole bag into the hopper and just do a short flush of the stale grounds before each shot. You can cancel a grind part way through using the switch on the side if you aren't quite at your target dose.

Overall I'd say that while you might not have made anything amazing yet, you at least have all the equipment to do it! Stick at it!

Sent from my ICS Touchpad using Tapatalk


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

Thanks for the help chaps.

Did try Photobucket but it says the file size is too big - and that was with a bare five seconds of video.



jimbow said:


> I notice you say that you achieve different shot times using the same basket in different portafilters - one naked and one with spouts. Assuming both portafilters are unpressurised, then this suggests that either the grind was different (perhaps due to grind retention in the grinder whilst adjusting the grind between shots) or the distributing and tamping is different between the two portafilters (perhaps the tamping with the spouts is not quite as hard?


No change in grind or dose between twin spout and naked portafilter but possibly the tamp.



jimbow said:


> The difference between the portafilters sounds quite pronounced which suggests grind differences or perhaps channelling. Did the puck have any holes in its surface after the pour and did it blond early and speed up significantly mid pour?


One puck did have three tiny holes in it - one of the gushers I think. I also had a couple of wet pucks (apologies for not stating this sooner).

On the upside, the pucks were easy to knock out from the naked portafilter straight into the bin (but this probably means I'm doing something else wrong).

@lookseehear - I need two paperclips? OK - sod the expense!

Al


----------



## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

onemac said:


> No change in grind or dose between twin spout and naked portafilter but possibly the tamp.
> 
> One puck did have three tiny holes in it - one of the gushers I think. I also had a couple of wet pucks (apologies for not stating this sooner).
> 
> On the upside, the pucks were easy to knock out from the naked portafilter straight into the bin (but this probably means I'm doing something else wrong).


I would not worry too much about the wet pucks but the gusher with the holes in the surface of the puck sounds like channelling - the holes are the routes of lesser resistance that the water takes through the puck. If you are not already doing so, try using a paper clip (yes another one!







) to stir the grounds in the portafilter and break up any clumps before tamping. This will help you achieve a consistent, even extraction allowing you to more easily fine tune your grind in response to what you are tasting and seeing.


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

Already doing the WDT twice *jimbow*. Once when I get the grounds into a container (for onward pouring into basket) and again in the basket, sometimes with a tap of the portafilter to flatten the grounds - especially on the higher dose ones.

Al


----------



## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

I'm not an expert by any means bit I'd try a little finer and also try a soft tamp halfway through filling the basket. It seems that you are not getting enough pressure in the tamp, causing a fast pour and chanelling. The other thing I noticed (if I read properly) is that you are using different coffees. You do realise that different beans require different grinds. Also, when was this coffee roasted? If it's old, it's more difficult to get a good coffee and consistant shots.


----------



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

How about a little photo diary of your method then? Maybe someone will spot something glaringly obvious


----------



## ~ Sea Chief ~ (Sep 20, 2011)

onemac said:


> Thanks for the replies folks.
> 
> I'm going to stand firm at the moment and stick with supermarket coffee, although my wife did buy me a tin of Illy stuff the other day. Would it be better to order beans from the likes of Coffee Bean Shop Ltd and ask for them to be ground for an espresso machine? Has to be better than the supermarket stuff eh?
> 
> ...


Al, if I may being a ~newbie Classic user: my 2p's' worth..

In an emergency Ive gone to std supermarket ground coffee (M&S 'house blend' pap) and whacked it thru my (£25 Russell Hobbs burr grinder) to get it espresso-fine. I wasn't expecting anything bar a flat, weakly thin-tasting shot with zilch crema. Wrong. It had a perfectly healthy 4mm of typical two-tone crema, a std 25sec pour, and the taste was absolutely acceptable. Ive no qualms using any pre-ground at all if I do run out of beans now, just making sure its ground (IE ground again) fine enough that's all. And probably that its not overltly stale, just a close crop with a clip to get the air out that's all. There shouldnt be any reason to get bathroom scales for the exact pressure/ exact this n that, even an iota of thought on the curvature of a tamper base (just press it down a bit, or a bit more): life's too short fella.. and you may well be inadvertantly affecting your relationship too! Chief.


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

OK folks - here's todays efforts.

First of all I think it's my tamp as there have been a couple of pucks with holes in them. On the other hand there has been less gushers today than yesterday. Below is a couple of pics of the puck - note that 18g ran through in 28 seconds resulting in 2fl oz of liquid but the results say that I'm switching off at the incorrect time as they are still sour.



















One thing I did notice was a ring around the edge - is this the brew head?










Now here's what I think you're going to say - first; the grind is too rough, second; I'm switching off too late, third; I'm dosing too much.

First thing tomorrow I'll get more beans and grind finer.

Al


----------



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I'd be interested in seeing the coffee before and after you've tamped.

Here's on I prepared earlier




























Although now adays I don't level off as much. I tend to distribute and tap the PF on the counter and I have no need to level off. This was also in my old double basket and double spout PF but you get the idea


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

That's mega clumpy..... Iberital MC?. In the photo it looks very fine too. Good pour?


----------



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

No, see my sig. It's the Baratza Virtuoso and it's as fine as it needs to be to get a perfect shot on my Classic


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

What number grind is that on Virtuoso?

Also you never answered how many paddles you have chimp!


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

Nice to see people posting pics of what they do, very helpful info, do you not weigh then I take it, that seems to be what Gail does on YouTube


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

EDIT: the grounds look much more coarse in my pics.

18g/27 seconds and just under 2fl oz. Tamp looked ok but there were areas under the basket without liquid.





































I'm wondering if the water is too hot as it's still sour?

Al


----------



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

fatboyslim said:


> What number grind is that on Virtuoso?
> 
> Also you never answered how many paddles you have chimp!


It was probably on zero or 1 out of 40. I always use that for my espressos. I weight the beans before grinding so I know how much is in the PF. I've recently started grinding into a glass then tipping it into the of which helps with the clumpng. Nothing a bit of a stir downtown quickly fix anyway so no problem.

I don't really know what these paddles you're talking about are. Could you explain?


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

onemac said:


> EDIT: the grounds look much more coarse in my pics.
> 
> I'm wondering if the water is too hot as it's still sour?
> 
> Al


sour would indicate water too cool and/or under extraction


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

try switching to steam mode, once thats ready go back to normal but clear the steam first before pulling so its back to water


----------



## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Al I would say don't get too caught up with a 30lb tamp either. I would initially grind finer, tamp lighter and keep the brew ratio constant.

I think a heavier tamp will tend to encourage channeling - so give this a try and see how it works out.


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

OK - I have a question to all those with a Gaggia Classic and Iberital MC2. Is it possible, using beans purchased at the supermarket, to dial them into your grinder, fill the basket with 18g, level, tamp then stick it on the Classic and get something out that you don't have to spit down the sink? I've spent all morning and yet another two bags of beans grinding, tamping and pulling shots following this routine:





[/QUOTE]

I have ground so fine and used the weight of the tamper plus a few pounds and managed to choke the Classic. I've ground more coarse and kept the same weight of tamp until I get something around 20 seconds but every time the brew head has been covered in grounds (using the naked portafilter). I've reduced the dose, tamped harder and ground finer going through the whole process of grind/dose/tamp in every permutation available to my two bags of beans and not one shot turned out remotely close to being palatable.

I have a headache.

Al


----------



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

1) do you even like espresso? (just a thought







)

2) Why are you still using supermarket beans? They'll never taste anywhere near as nice as something fresh. Please just buy some fresh beans online. (or did I miss some reason why you can't?)

I'd be really interested in seeing your technique as I have no idea how you still haven't got anything decent out of it after all this effort. Don't give up.


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

onemac said:


> OK - I have a question to all those with a Gaggia Classic and Iberital MC2. Is it possible, using beans purchased at the supermarket, to dial them into your grinder, fill the basket with 18g, level, tamp then stick it on the Classic and get something out that you don't have to spit down the sink?
> 
> Al


It sure is, but it depends on your own personal quality threshold. Have a look at this... OK, I used a better grinder, but still...

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?4479-Tesco-Beans&highlight=tesco


----------



## surfingjoyner (Dec 12, 2011)

I would echo the sentiments about not getting to hung up about it - I've had my equipment for about a month and had some good shots and bad shots but am enjoying the journey of discovery, I don't think it is something you can master over night but most of the sots you are making are undrinkable I would question whether you like espresso or not







By the way I had some terrible shots last week due to the beans not being to my taste - maybe that is it? Git some new beans and now much happier. Just a thought.


----------



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

It could just be that the particular beans that you are using may not be to your taste or that they might be a particularly unforgiving variety, or a blend with a broad spectrum with regards to size and density of bean, which can make dialling in very difficult indeed. I know that many might disagree but try using a nice consistant uniform single estate, something with a nice oil content and density which will be forgiving with extraction rates. I am thinking you couldn't go wrong with this.. http://www.coffeecompass.co.uk/shop/roasted-origin-coffee/south-america/peru-tunki-500g.html

If you look back at some of my previous posts you will discover that I have been really pushing this coffee, though not without good reason. It has many attributes that I belive you will benefit from, It is very forgiving, to the point where even my test shots when dialling in are delicious! It is also very easy to dial in, I have a rough spot on my Mazzer that I use as a starting point for it and it is usually only a couple of mm either side of that. It rarely blondes early unless I have been half asleep and done something totally stupid!

If you do give it a go, apon ordering, request a full city+ roast, which I have discovered makes this stuff really shine!

I am that convinced it would re-capture your passion that if I wasn't so low on funds this week (I can't even afford a bag for myself!) I would just buy you a bag!

Never give up man, I know you will sort it!


----------



## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

To be honest I won't buy beans from the supermarket. If I did I wouldn't rate my chances of getting something I would drink as straight espresso.

It's all about the beans man! If your mc2 is now in the ball park fineness wise then buy some fresh beans (I'm using lusty glaze by hands on roasters at the moment and can highly recommend it for being forgiving and very tasty).

The other option is to get some barista training. I'd see it as 'doubling down' on espresso, as theres more financial commitment but at the end of it you'll know if it's something you really want to pursue. I'd imagine you're a bit far away for Glenn but there must be other trainers recommended near you.


----------



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

That's a good point. Maybe the beans just aren't suited to espresso even if fresh. I've had a couple like that on the past. Saying that, out of total desperation the other day I had to use some oldish tesco beans. I just added hot water to the double espresso to make an Americano and it actually tasted pretty good.

Have you tried that?


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

what are the beans you have used ?


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

brun just so you aren't pouring money down the sink, perhaps try Happy Donkey Italian click here

I have heard this blend makes good espresso without being challenging or with 'hard to capture flora notes'. Its just a simple dark roast that will be perfect for you to play around with.


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

yea i will need somethig to mess with when i finally get a grinder


----------



## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

onemac said:


> using beans purchased at the supermarket


So, you're trying to make espresso with stale beans that probably weren't great when fresh. That just isn't going to work for espresso.

Do you want me to post you some Monmouth espresso blend beans to try? I could send some when I next get them fresh.


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

rodabod said:


> Do you want me to post you some Monmouth espresso blend beans to try? I could send some when I next get them fresh.


Thanks for the offer but I've ordered a few bags of fresh as suggested elsewhere in this thread.

Update: I managed to blag some fresh beans today and set about stuffing 18g into my naked portafilter. Results were better than yesterday but still not great - I think I'm going to try a finer grind and less weight in the tamp which will probably require less of a dose.

@chimpsinties - tried the Americano route yesterday but it was truly awful. Today I did at least manage to taste a few and even drunk a double but it left the inside of my mouth dry and wrinkled. I am now drinking beer to compensate.....

Al


----------



## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

If you are getting sour shots (lemon, vinegar) then reduce to 14g or less, with a finer grind, and see how you get on.


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

I'd try goin to 14g too, although I've only used pre ground so far I've not got good results with 18g


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

rodabod said:


> If you are getting sour shots (lemon, vinegar) then reduce to 14g or less, with a finer grind, and see how you get on.


I'd not considered going to 14g, only 16g-18g. Will try that. Thanks.



brun said:


> I'd try goin to 14g too, although I've only used pre ground so far I've not got good results with 18g


Yes - should have thought of that. 15g did seem to be best with pre-ground.

Al


----------



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Did you try the Tunki?


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

Outlaw333 said:


> Did you try the Tunki?


Not yet - it's on order though









Al


----------



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Ah great, I hope you love it as much as I do, did you request the Roast profile I recommended? If not don't worry, It was already a favorite of mine as standard. It was just by chance one day, that they had some left over from another customer who had requested a full city+ roast, they gave me a call to say that they had added a 200g bag of that to my order to try for free, since then I have requested the darker roast every time I order Tunki.

Either way though, it's Yummy!


----------



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Oh, I must add, the all round product quality and service from these chaps is second to none! I can pretty much set my watch by the delivery, they roast(your individual batch) and dispatch same day, using parcel-force next day. You even get a lovely little touch on the bags label that i will let you discover.

I love the fact that they do the bigger 500g bags aswell, which last me and my partner around 7-10 days worth of regular consumption and Its not like a 250g where you have got through half of it dialling in and learning it's behavior!


----------



## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

I'd also experiment with the weight you're pouring. I've only found recently how much volume varies due to crema content. A double is often quoted as including crema in that volume of two ounces, but that could only be around 30g of liquid...

Change variables one at a time, and vary them to extremes. It can be tricky!


----------



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Hey man, how are you getting on with those beans?


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

The beans have not arrived yet - hopefully tomorrow. Didn't pull a shot today and I'm getting withdrawal symptoms already.

Al


----------



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

That really surprises me, I usually order a bag a week from CC and every single time, they are here the very next day at 10am!


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

Hope they arrive soon, best of luck


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

They arrived today when I was out - neighbours have them and I'll get my hands on them tomorrow.

Al


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

Bit of an update - now have espresso machine/grinder/fresh beans (set down for a day or two). 14g into the basket with a light tamp and I choked the Classic. Wind back several turns and try again - 35 seconds and just over a fluid ounce so unwind four more turns with the same light tamp and get the time down to 30 seconds (same amount). Unwind 2 more turns and 15 seconds later had to switch off. Good grief the grinder is sensitive.

Anyway, suffice to say that I'm getting there with the best shot being the first (Ristretto?), however it was too strong and viscous for my taste. I think I've got the MC2 dialled in and will experiment with dose and tamp tomorrow although I still have nightmares about throwing disgusting tasting shots down the sink.

I'm sure I know where I was going wrong - the tamp! I was obsessive about getting the grinds off of the side of the basket and getting the tamp level. I would do a NSEW, check the level and tamp but would never be happy with it. A few of the ongoing threads yesterday came out with two suggestions - 'tamp light to set the level then one more firm tamp to finish (no faffing about to get it spot on)' and 'if it's not level knock the puck out and start again'.

Many thanks for the guidance and especially your patience - looking back through this thread there must have been much hair-pulling at my inexperience.

Al


----------



## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

It is all a learning experience and the learning is part of the fun. I am sure I speak for everyone on this forum when I say that sharing what collective experience we might have with others is one of the reasons we all use the forum.

Glad to hear it is all coming together - I too used to be obsessive about grinds up the side of the basket


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

Nice work, progress !


----------



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

is it still progressing mate ?


----------



## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

brun said:


> is it still progressing mate ?


Indeed. I've stopped making truly awful shots and am now making drinkable ones - and those that are too bad I'm throwing into some steamed milk.

However............................. I struggle with the bean ageing issue. This second lot of beans seem to want unscrewing the worm screw at least a full turn per day so that by the time I get fresher and perhaps different beans I'm going to have one mother of a job dialling them in again.

Progress is currently measured by the fact I can pull between one and two ounces in 20-30 seconds using 14g-15g of grounds in the naked portafilter. No two ever taste the same though.........

Al


----------



## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

The changes that beans go through as they age makes it very challenging to achieve consistent results. One of the biggest difficulties is consistently measuring the quantity of espresso produced as the beans de-gas and produce less crema. A way around this is to use weight to measure the espresso rather than volume. Weight should be consistent even while the amount of crema changes as the beans age.

The weight of espresso to aim for is dependent upon personal taste and the beans themselves but I would suggest starting with double the weight of liquid espresso to the weight of ground coffee you dosed e.g. if you use 14g of ground coffee then aim to produce 28g of liquid espresso.

Beans can also produce inconsistent and unpredictable results when they are too fresh. Usually, for espresso, I like to let the beans rest for at least 4 days after roasting before using them and with some beans even longer.


----------



## cofibean (Feb 18, 2012)

i would love to grind my own coffee but am unsure what i need, the best one for the cheapest price and any coffee bean recommendations


----------



## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Have a look at the grinders thread on this site for some good ideas. You basically want a burr grinder (not blade) that can grind fine enough for espresso. Unfortunately, there are not many, if any, electric burr grinders under £150 that a capable of this. The Iberital MC2 is considered a very reasonably priced and capable grinder for espresso around this price point. Alternatively you could consider a manual grinder for around £30 such as those made by Porlex or Hario.


----------



## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

cofibean said:


> i would love to grind my own coffee but am unsure what i need, the best one for the cheapest price and any coffee bean recommendations


I am using an Iberital MC2 and can recommend on a budget. It does have its negatives along with its positives, but, the price point far outweighs the negatives!

As for beans, I can highly recommend http://www.coffeebeanshopltd.co.uk.

Get their fortnightly promotion. £14.99 for 4x250g mixed bags. Currently 10% off. I have just put a thread up in the "Beans" section in regards to them.

If getting the iberital from happy donkey, give them a call and see if you can get some of their Italian beans thrown in as a courtesy







if they don't give them you for free, get some anyway as they are as cheap as they come and I found them invaluable when practicing dialling in correctly as you will waste so much at first!


----------



## Beany17 (Aug 25, 2018)

Am thinking of ordering a bottomless portafilter from Happy Donkey to try instead of the pressurised double that came with the classic and I've been using up till now- see though that they come in both 15 and 21g sizes. Any thoughts re which is likely to be the better choice?


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Beany17 said:


> Am thinking of ordering a bottomless portafilter from Happy Donkey to try instead of the pressurised double that came with the classic and I've been using up till now- see though that they come in both 15 and 21g sizes. Any thoughts re which is likely to be the better choice?


Depends on the size of your cup. The only time I use my 21g basket is when I'm making a brew in my travel cup.


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Using 15g on my L-R and find it is just right for a 34g ish shot in a flat white or topped up in the same cup for black.


----------

