# Exact timing for pulling a shot



## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

I was just wondering how people time their shot? Do you time it from the moment you switch the pump on or time it from when the coffee starts to appear from the spout and count 25 seconds. Obviously there is a delay of about 3-5 seconds from switching the pump on to the coffee appearing so does that have a bearing on things?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Time it from when the switch is hit


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah, from when you hit the switch.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Yep. From the moment you flick the switch.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Why does everyone say it is from when you flick the switch. that is encompassing pre infusion. On a lever, as you know Bootsie, the timing of the shot ignores the pre infusion and is counted from when the first drips hit the bottom of the glass.

Why should it be different for pumps?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Thats a good point dfk...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Forget 25 seconds, go by weight in the cup (as long as time isn't absurdly long or short) & adjust grind by taste.

The time is generally considered to refer to flow through the puck. With a spouted pf & pump you may get a few seconds delay after throwing the switch, but not be able to see exactly when flow began. With a lever, preinfusion is typically low pressure - once the puck is saturated & drips appear, that's the time to start timing flow. It's not "the law", but do things consistently.


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Forget 25 seconds, go by weight in the cup (as long as time isn't absurdly long or short) & adjust grind by taste.
> 
> The time is generally considered to refer to flow through the puck. With a spouted pf & pump you may get a few seconds delay after throwing the switch, but not be able to see exactly when flow began. With a lever, preinfusion is typically low pressure - once the puck is saturated & drips appear, that's the time to start timing flow. It's not "the law", but do things consistently.


Along this line then when do you know to change ratio?? Would you get you 1:1.5 in a reasonable time and if doesnt reflect the tasting notes or if you just fancy a play then try a 1:1 and a 1:2 ratio without changing the grind setting?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

As soon as hot water comes in contact with coffee then the process has started IMO. So yes thats when the switch is flicked.

The whole 25 seconds thing isnt what the absolute focus should be on, its more important to get the right output weight. Have had some amazing shots where drips hadnt hit the cup until the 20 second mark! Think of time as a marker to allow repetition once youre dialled in and happy.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> As soon as hot water comes in contact with coffee then the process has started IMO. So yes thats when the switch is flicked.
> 
> The whole 25 seconds thing isnt what the absolute focus should be on, its more important to get the right output weight. Have had some amazing shots where drips hadnt hit the cup until the 20 second mark! Think of time as a marker to allow repetition once youre dialled in and happy.


More or less my point Gary, but, it does not explain why pump boys say flick the switch when ;lever boys say from the first drips through the puck


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

One of the many mysteries surrounding the world of coffee.

Its unlikely that either machines users will be prescribing x seconds @ y BAR anyway - pointless trying to replicate each others extractions


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> One of the many mysteries surrounding the world of coffee.
> 
> Its unlikely that either machines users will be prescribing x seconds @ y BAR anyway - pointless trying to replicate each others extractions


In that case, stop pressure profiling with your Sage and buy a lever machine!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

but then I lose my volumetrics and we know input v output is more important than shot time


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

kikapu said:


> Along this line then when do you know to change ratio?? Would you get you 1:1.5 in a reasonable time and if doesnt reflect the tasting notes or if you just fancy a play then try a 1:1 and a 1:2 ratio without changing the grind setting?


Well, if you hit 1.5:1 in a reasonable time (more than 20 seconds, less than, say 40) and the taste isn't to your liking, you have expolored limits of grind (choker to gusher), then go longer on the ratio and/or coarser.

A brew ratio sets the target concentration (can be pretty well anything), not the flavour balance, there are the more commonly used brew ratios but no "right/wrong". If you can't hit the sweet spot with your regime/gear (grind not consistent & fine enough, coffee roast too light, poor/less than ideal prep)at a short ratio, you then have to go longer...or severely underextract to avoid sourness (results in bland coffee).

The point is, your extraction is dependent on a given weight of dose vs beverage, if it tastes sweet & balanced it doesn't matter exactly how many seconds it took (30seconds +/- 10 seconds is a 33% swing in that factor, time is a very vague guide to flavour, beans can't see clocks, clocks can't taste coffee), but 1.5:1 is always 1.5:1.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> but then I lose my volumetrics and we know input v output is more important than shot time


What happens if you pull the wonder shot with all you dibbling and dabbling, then taste it and all is not as it seems. Pump boys wear short trousers, lever boys wear long trousers!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> What happens if you pull the wonder shot with all you dibbling and dabbling, then taste it and all is not as it seems.


Then I simply adjust one of my recipe parameters (I can because i measured them) : )

It gets warm in summer with long trousers


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## AlexB (Mar 20, 2013)

Presumably it helps to keep track of the shot timing once everything's dialled in, for the sake of consistency? If the desired output hits at 30 secs and it tastes as it should (not over or under extracted), then having that as a target time makes things easier?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> What happens if you pull the wonder shot with all you dibbling and dabbling, then taste it and all is not as it seems. Pump boys wear short trousers, lever boys wear long trousers!


Then, by definition, it's not a "wonder shot". It's only a wonder shot if it tastes good. If all 25 second flow shots (+/- preinfusion, lever, pump, whatever) taste good, then coffee forums would be very sparse places with little discussion going on.

Who wears kilts & plus fours? What do lever boys wear when they play rugby, short shorts, long shorts? What does that make Tom Daly? ;-)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

AlexB said:


> Presumably it helps to keep track of the shot timing once everything's dialled in, for the sake of consistency? If the desired output hits at 30 secs and it tastes as it should (not over or under extracted), then having that as a target time makes things easier?


+/-1gram of beverage has much more effect on consistency of flavour than +/-1 second.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

MWJB said:


> ....... do things consistently.


Sums it up!

Weighing

Timing

Praying

whatever your technique consistency is how you will get repeatable results.....


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

Well I time from hitting the switch and I've been doing this since starting last December, following every bit of advice given, ensuring my machine is in tip top condition by replacing bits for new and adjusting the pressure, using great beans and a good grinder. But I still haven't produced an espresso that is considered really drinkable without making it into a latte.

So on that form, I'm a Gaggia boy still wearing chuffin nappies!

But I love it!


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

In my opinion, life's too short to be messing around with all of this. I do try and get between 23 and 27 seconds and I know more or less the correct volume of the coffee in my cup. I do everything more or less. As long as the coffee tastes good, who can be arsed to measure and weigh?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

xiuxiuejar said:


> In my opinion, life's too short to be messing around with all of this. I do try and get between 23 and 27 seconds and I know more or less the correct volume of the coffee in my cup. I do everything more or less. As long as the coffee tastes good, who can be arsed to measure and weigh?


your choice







there is no one way to make coffee that's absolute

if your coffee tastes good and your happy with it then it works for you.

if it doesn't and you want to have an idea of what to change to make a different taste then weighing in and out can help .

no one has to do anything , in any particular way , but if someone says my coffee tastes bitter to sour then it's good to know which bits to change to help .

so it's a valid opinion

but so is that of those that weigh in and out

if you don't think it adds value don't it , if you do then do !


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

I wasn't being critical of anybody doing it properly, just stating that some of us are too lazy!!!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

xiuxiuejar said:


> I wasn't being critical of anybody doing it properly, just stating that some of us are too lazy!!!


Ha ha ! And I wasn't saying there is a proper way either sorry









just different ways for different people


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I time it from hitting the switch....otherwise the laws of space and time collapse!









I do agree with extraction ratio is more important. I've had some great shots at 40 secs of late that have been extracted correctly. Previously I'd probably previously sinker them.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I just wish it was a little simpler, just did 15g in, 23g out, 23 secs with my indian beans.

First one that i can honestly say tasted like strong coffee and not some sour/bitter cup of doom!

What i did different, tamped it a little lighter.

Will i get the same result tomorrow morning, who knows!


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