# Filtered water



## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Yesterday was one of those frustrating days where every brew went wrong. Felt like chucking the whole lot in the bin...

My excuse is that i changed water. I've been using various bottled waters, initially volvic, but latterly the cheaper spring waters and tbh not really noticing much difference. The other night while shopping , i saw a brita filter jug in the supermarket going really cheap so thought i'd give it a go. Bad move. Every type of brew went wrong and tasted really bad.

The brews seemed over extracted and bitter. Undrinkable some of them.

Really surprised. I thought it was my ineptitude, but i was dosing/brewing exactly the same with the same bean exactly as i done the day before. Maybe when you change water you need to change other parameters like grind/temp as well?

Back on the tap this morning - so much better. Funny thing is the brita filtered water tastes ok as water!


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Did you flush the filter several times before use ??


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## El Cabron (Nov 23, 2013)

Hi step21 i always use a brita maxtra filter and never had a problem, so maybe it might be your machine especially as it seems to be happening with whatever water you use. My advice would be to get some puly caffe and some puly baby and descale your machine with puly baby and backflush the group head with puly caffe. You'd be surprised at the residue that builds up under the screen and the brass thing that the screen fits to and whenever i take those off everyday to clean them it smells horrible, similar to burnt oil, and that's after just 1 days use at home, and about 10 double espresso shots. Good luck i hope it works out for you


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

El carajillo said:


> Did you flush the filter several times before use ??


Yes i did.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

El Cabron said:


> Hi step21 i always use a brita maxtra filter and never had a problem, so maybe it might be your machine especially as it seems to be happening with whatever water you use. My advice would be to get some puly caffe and some puly baby and descale your machine with puly baby and backflush the group head with puly caffe. You'd be surprised at the residue that builds up under the screen and the brass thing that the screen fits to and whenever i take those off everyday to clean them it smells horrible, similar to burnt oil, and that's after just 1 days use at home, and about 10 double espresso shots. Good luck i hope it works out for you


Just using for manual brews. I don't have a espresso machine.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

I also tried an experiment with adding magnesium & sodium bicarbonate to the filtered water

See here https://www.dropbox.com/s/ua5p4y4irf22lwg/Five%20Senses%20water%20recipe.pdf

This was really bad - quite undrinkable!


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## CallumT (Aug 23, 2013)

If your unhappy with the brita filters you could also try the BWT filter catridges which also fit the brita maxtra jugs. All the water filtration I use is BWT be it all inline but i have friends who love their jug systems


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## El Cabron (Nov 23, 2013)

Hmmm ok, then i dunno what to suggest, but by process of elimination, and if you get problems no matter what water you use, and i assume you're pretty competent at making coffee, then that only leaves your brewing equipment and the beans or grinds you use as to where any problems might lie. Sorry i couldn't be of more help.



Step21 said:


> Just using for manual brews. I don't have a espresso machine.


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

BWT filters in the Brita Jug may help ( Amazon had them for about £11 for 3 plus shipping) and a marked improvement over Brita own.

Have both Brita jug and BWT jug and the BWT MG2+ fit fine in both, so much so that run both on BWT now.

Loads of blurb on the BWT site why these may be better than the Brita for you to make your own mind up though if you wish.

Hope of help

John


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Step21 said:


> I also tried an experiment with adding magnesium & sodium bicarbonate to the filtered water
> 
> See here https://www.dropbox.com/s/ua5p4y4irf22lwg/Five%20Senses%20water%20recipe.pdf
> 
> This was really bad - quite undrinkable!


The problem here is sodium bicarbonate. I have done similar tests over the past 3 months and think I've just about cracked it. As soon as I have the answers I'll put a post up.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

El Cabron said:


> i assume you're pretty competent at making coffee, ...


That's an assumption indeed! Occasionally competent perhaps.

I think it's mostly a taste difference. I've also noticed it in (whisper) tea. The tea tastes to me more acidic and less sweet compared to tap water. But strangely, it tastes ok as plain water. I've tried tasting the tap water beside the brita and they are not hugely different. The brita seems relatively sweet at first but leaves a marked drying effect on the tongue and mouth which the tap water doesn't.

I might give the BWT filter a try at some point.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Water is HUGE for coffee. Some is that bad that it doesn't matter what grinder or technique you use, you're doomed.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> The problem here is sodium bicarbonate. I have done similar tests over the past 3 months and think I've just about cracked it. As soon as I have the answers I'll put a post up.


That sounds great, look forward to it. Saves me doing any more experimentation and wasting coffee!


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

garydyke1 said:


> Water is HUGE for coffee. Some is that bad that it doesn't matter what grinder or technique you use, you're doomed.


I read that with the voice of Private Frazer from Dad's Army. We're doomed Captain!


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Step21 said:


> That sounds great, look forward to it. Saves me doing any more experimentation and wasting coffee!


It's been hard work, I actually did my degree in Chemistry but that's now long forgotten. I've collected a load of chemistry papers as resources to work out what's actually happening and I think I've managed to work it all out.

I tried the 5 senses 70/30 early on but didn't get anything good out of it. I've been speaking to Maxwell from C&S about ratios but the hardest part by far was working out the correct way to theoretically calculate what you are actually doing to the water as testing is pretty laborious without the correct equipment.

My testing has been basic up to now but I've just ordered some slightly better equipment to increase accuracy now that I'm in the ballpark.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> It's been hard work, I actually did my degree in Chemistry but that's now long forgotten. I've collected a load of chemistry papers as resources to work out what's actually happening and I think I've managed to work it all out.
> 
> I tried the 5 senses 70/30 early on but didn't get anything good out of it. I've been speaking to Maxwell from C&S about ratios but the hardest part by far was working out the correct way to theoretically calculate what you are actually doing to the water as testing is pretty laborious without the correct equipment.
> 
> My testing has been basic up to now but I've just ordered some slightly better equipment to increase accuracy now that I'm in the ballpark.


Sounds like you are near to cracking the case after a lot of effort- well done!

I tried the 70/30 because it was simple to do. But i did think if it was a winner there would be a lot of people using it which doesn't seem to be the case. Actually, i couldn't believe how bad the coffee it made was which made me triple check that i'd followed the instructions correctly.

Do you think that your investigations will result in a simple method for brew water that can be made at home with only basic tools & knowledge?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

As others are saying water is a HUGE part of coffee, in a brewed coffee it's about 99% of the finished product!

There is also a massive difference in the water between your tap water filtered in a Brita jug and your various bottled waters, just look at the chemical differences on the labels. I think Evian is one that is often cited as awful for coffee.

Maxwell himself says that what tastes nice as drinking water and what tastes nice as coffee water are 2 different things.

If you want to learn more then watch Maxwell Colonna-Dashwood's talks on TamperTantrum about water, he has done a lot of research with a chemist that goes a lot further than just TDS and they're really interesting.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Step21 said:


> Sounds like you are near to cracking the case after a lot of effort- well done!
> 
> I tried the 70/30 because it was simple to do. But i did think if it was a winner there would be a lot of people using it which doesn't seem to be the case. Actually, i couldn't believe how bad the coffee it made was which made me triple check that i'd followed the instructions correctly.
> 
> Do you think that your investigations will result in a simple method for brew water that can be made at home with only basic tools & knowledge?


That is why I tried 70/30, it looked easy and promised a fair bit, unfortunately it wasn't for me.

My goal is to come up with a solution that should make it easy for people to modify water at home.

I set out with two goals

1. To devise a method for creating ideal water from an RO source.

2. To devise a method for optimising a branded bottled water.

Option 2 appears to be the easiest to achieve at home with basic equipment. I've spent most of my time on option 1 and it appears to be much harder to achieve.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

aaronb said:


> As others are saying water is a HUGE part of coffee, in a brewed coffee it's about 99% of the finished product!
> 
> .


Thanks, i'll look into that.

Given the huge impact of water on coffee it seems strange then that there is not more focus by the coffee industry on how to optimise it. Maybe there is research going on under the radar?


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> That is why I tried 70/30, it looked easy and promised a fair bit, unfortunately it wasn't for me.
> 
> RO source.


Sorry to be dumb, but do you mean renewable source? (like the tap)


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

With regards to the OP, Tesco Clearview is theoretically the closest to the figures that I am using for ideal. It lacks a bit in strength but the mineral ratios are much better than most certainly for brewed.

Espresso is a bit less picky.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Step21 said:


> Thanks, i'll look into that.
> 
> Given the huge impact of water on coffee it seems strange then that there is not more focus by the coffee industry on how to optimise it. Maybe there is research going on under the radar?


There is though, like I said Maxwell has done loads!

For a long time people just looked at TDS until it became apparent that there was more to it than that.

Don't forget research costs lots of money.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Step21 said:


> Sorry to be dumb, but do you mean renewable source? (like the tap)


RO is reverse osmosis which is nearly pure water (about 4ppm). The systems cost about £120-£160 and are really easy to plumb in. Either way it's really hard work getting the water back up to spec from nothing.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

aaronb said:


> There is though, like I said Maxwell has done loads!
> 
> For a long time people just looked at TDS until it became apparent that there was more to it than that.
> 
> Don't forget research costs lots of money.


Yes, it's hard to see much commercial gain. Who funded the Maxwell research?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Step21 said:


> Yes, it's hard to see much commercial gain. Who funded the Maxwell research?


Not sure, it was used as part of this WBC routine so maybe connected?

They are meant to be publishing all this research in a paper v soon, it may have already happened.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Step21 said:


> Yes, it's hard to see much commercial gain. Who funded the Maxwell research?


Nuova Simonelli


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

aaronb said:


> Not sure, it was used as part of this WBC routine so maybe connected?
> 
> They are meant to be publishing all this research in a paper v soon, it may have already happened.


The paper was released some time ago but I believe that they are writing a book on the subject which will hopefully be released soon. I'm not sure what the book will cover but it should make for an interesting read.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> but it should make for an interesting read.


If you're into all that stuff anyway....


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

aaronb said:


> There is though, like I said Maxwell has done loads!
> 
> For a long time people just looked at TDS until it became apparent that there was more to it than that.
> 
> Don't forget research costs lots of money.


Max is in the process of finishing his book at the moment (slightly delayed by trips to our place for coffee when he's writing). It's going to be published in print form now, rather than as an ebook, and will have loads of useful info.

JP


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

This 70/30 water looks at odds to what Maxwell told me. He said that roughly speaking the sum of the calcium and magnesium content should be around double that of the bicarbonate.

My Chemistry is poor, but from what I can tell the 5 senses 70/30 water is basically 70% bicarbonate and 30% magnesium. According to what Maxwell said it should be more 33.3% bicarbonate and 66.6% magnesium.

Or have I misunderstood the 5 senses chemistry?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

fluffles said:


> This 70/30 water looks at odds to what Maxwell told me. He said that roughly speaking the sum of the calcium and magnesium content should be around double that of the bicarbonate.
> 
> My Chemistry is poor, but from what I can tell the 5 senses 70/30 water is basically 70% bicarbonate and 30% magnesium. According to what Maxwell said it should be more 33.3% bicarbonate and 66.6% magnesium.
> 
> Or have I misunderstood the 5 senses chemistry?


There is more to it than that. Maxwell is talking in terms of hardness, which relates on ions in solution, not in terms of straight up ppm which is what 70/30 is referring to. Either way 5 senses method doesn't make good tasting coffee to me and I'm glad the Step21 said the same thing as I thought it might just be me


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Based on what I think I know now, the 5 senses recipe seems to give Carbonate Hardness (KH) 1.9 and General Hardness (GH) of 1.4, taste testing indicates that a ratio of 2:1 of GH:KH is preferential. To make this recipe work you would need GH of about 4 to offset the KH. However, I have been there and done that and whenever I add anything to do with sodium bicarbonate into a water mix it usually tastes like crap even when the ratios are correct. I believe that this is down the the fact the Bicarbonates are unstable in solution with water and they further decompose into CO2 and H2O whereas Carbonate don't do this under normal circumstances.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> whenever I add anything to do with sodium bicarbonate into a water mix it usually tastes like crap


I agree strongly with this.

Given it's an alkali, would the addition of sodium bicarb not change the PH of the water? Presumably we want a PH of 7?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Step21 said:


> I agree strongly with this.
> 
> Given it's an alkali, would the addition of sodium bicarb not change the PH of the water? Presumably we want a PH of 7?


Yes it would. Although I've measured at various points I've not spent a lot of time researching how to add this into my calcs as it's complicated. RO water is usually slightly acidic so adding some pH is a good thing. I saw some graphs that showed the difference in the way that carbonates and bicarbonates buffer. Bicarbonates reacted very quickly to any pH change where carbonates were a little bit more controlled. I've no idea if this could affect coffee brewing or not though


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