# Lever Machine Comparison



## davetucker

When I was researching buying a lever machine I started this spreadsheet based on the info I found on the web.

I'd be interested in getting some feedback from you lever aficionados to make this a little more accurate.

My thoughts are, this could be an interesting resource for somebody looking to buy a lever machine


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## Jp19810

Hi Dave

really useful comparison - one observation on the price of the londinium I - I think the price is £1950 with the VAT added. (George Osbourne always has to have his cut!!) unfortunately pushes the price up significantly against some of the other options but from what I've read and heard it's a great machine.


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## Glenn

The heating time for the L1 is much lower than you have stated. It can heat in as little as 3 minutes from cold for a shot if you flush first.


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## davetucker

Updated price and heating time for L1 on the spreadsheet as per comments.


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## Glenn

Stickied for a while


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## welshrarebit

Great spreadsheet, sure it will be of great use to community.


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## aaronb

For the L1 I think it's 3 mins boiler heat time, flush (to kickstart the themosyphon) then 12 mins for the group to come up to temp, so 15 mins?

I may be wrong though, I turn it on and go back to bed for a bit then have a shower. ~45 mins from switch on its ready to go (no flush).


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## 4085

Having owned 3 Londiniums, I have never had one go from a cold start to being ready in 3 minutes! It is fast but I would say from zero to temp is about 7 minutes, then you have to pull a good litre of water through the group then let the boiler recover again. Reiss states on his website, 12 minutes.The L1 price is £1625 plus vat.

there is also a new lever machine coming from BB called the Veloce. Info can be found on other threads and I believe the test machine will be with CC this week, priced at £1650 including vat


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## The Systemic Kid

Zero to go in three minutes is entirely possible - cock the lever and let about half a litre pour through into a jug. Good idea to have a thermocouple attached to the group to check you haven't overheated it


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## Glenn

That's how it was measured Patrick









At a pinch, 3 mins

Normal time 10-12 mins

Still one of the quickest heatups in the laver market whichever way you look at it.


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## The Systemic Kid

Glenn, this is lifted from Reiss's blog - he gives 9 minutes

http://londiniumespresso.com/blog/londinium-i-ready-to-go-in-less-than-9-minutes

What I am referring to above is: switch on the machine from cold. As soon as pressure is up to 1.2bar, run half a litre through the group to warm it up to temp. Recall Reiss mentioning this somewhere on his blog as an emergency heat up method.


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## DavidBondy

I've seen a lot of discussion on another forum about the Izzo Alex Leva lever machine. Is that available here to be added to the spreadsheet?

DB


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## Geordie Boy

Strega is 7 mins for steam delivery and I'd say a further 5 (so 12 total) for being ready for a shot (in reality I generally give it some margin and do 15 mins from turning the power on to pulling a shot)


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## davetucker

Glenn said:


> Stickied for a while


Thanks Glenn, if anybody wants edit permissions to help maintain this PM me your email address



dfk41 said:


> there is also a new lever machine coming from BB called the Veloce. Info can be found on other threads and I believe the test machine will be with CC this week, priced at £1650 including vat


I've seen other threads about this but nothing concrete as yet. As soon as information is available I'll add it to the spreadsheet.



The Systemic Kid said:


> Glenn, this is lifted from Reiss's blog - he gives 9 minutes
> 
> http://londiniumespresso.com/blog/londinium-i-ready-to-go-in-less-than-9-minutes
> 
> What I am referring to above is: switch on the machine from cold. As soon as pressure is up to 1.2bar, run half a litre through the group to warm it up to temp. Recall Reiss mentioning this somewhere on his blog as an emergency heat up method.


Shall we say 9 mins then?



DavidBondy said:


> I've seen a lot of discussion on another forum about the Izzo Alex Leva lever machine. Is that available here to be added to the spreadsheet?


I've googled, but can't find a UK retailer. If anybody knows of one I think we could add this to the sheet too.



Geordie Boy said:


> Strega is 7 mins for steam delivery and I'd say a further 5 (so 12 total) for being ready for a shot (in reality I generally give it some margin and do 15 mins from turning the power on to pulling a shot)


Thanks! Added.


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## 4085

Izzo is called the Pompeii and bb used to sell it. 2 group is popular with trailer owners


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## Glenn

9 minutes is a happy medium


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## dpiette

small fix - the Achille (at least my Achille) has a site glass.

added: And the boiler pressure can get to at least 1.5 bar (though mine is not set that high)


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## davetucker

dpiette said:


> small fix - the Achille (at least my Achille) has a site glass.
> 
> added: And the boiler pressure can get to at least 1.5 bar (though mine is not set that high)


Done

13 chars


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## dpiette

I'm sorry - I meant the Quickmill Achille.

(With all the Greek heros out there, you would have thought they wouldn't have picked the same one that Gaggia did!)

d


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## davetucker

dpiette said:


> I'm sorry - I meant the Quickmill Achille.
> 
> (With all the Greek heros out there, you would have thought they wouldn't have picked the same one that Gaggia did!)
> 
> d


I think it's named after Achille Gaggia







Achilles is the hero greek mythos, although some may argue that Mr. Gaggia is a hero too.


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## Shady

The izzo 1 group is available from these guys - http://www.tudorcoffee.co.uk .


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## Lord Fluff

So the L1 without group heater is ready quicker than the Strega which does have one?


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## 4085

confusion me thinks. The L1 time, is the time it takes for the boiler to come to pressure, not the time the machine is ready to use. Once the boiler is at pressure, the group has to heat through so you either leave it which takes around 45 minutes or so or pull water through to force it up.

The Strega probably has a smaller element but once at pressure, there is a cartridge in the group which heats the group up, meaning the time from cold to ready is far shorter. The Sage DB also does this


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## mfortin

Why there is no comparison about the Olympia cremina or Strietman ES3?


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## coffeechap

mfortin said:


> Why there is no comparison about the Olympia cremina or Strietman ES3?


even though the cremina is more expensive, having owned and used one, it is not in the same league as an L1 (they are nice little machines though)


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## mfortin

coffeechap said:


> even though the cremina is more expensive, having owned and used one, it is not in the same league as an L1 (they are nice little machines though)


Ok then what about the Strietman?


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## Niall

Very informative thread. Thinking of a lever machine. Thanks


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## BeansForBreakfast

Does anyone know what happened to this spreadsheet? The URL is a dead link. Has it been moved? Should this still be sticky?


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## davetucker

BeansForBreakfast said:


> Does anyone know what happened to this spreadsheet? The URL is a dead link. Has it been moved? Should this still be sticky?


I deleted my Google Apps account last week so the URL is now dead









I'll find a new home for it and update the link tomorrow.


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## BeansForBreakfast

Good for you (I dislike everything googley)!

Would be great if you could relocate it, I'm considering a lever machine purchase and would appreciate the information.


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## Planter

Any follow up for this link as I am looking for my first lever?

Any help appreciated. Thanks


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## Leoluo

I can say that after fixing some wiring problems I like my quick mill a lot


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## 4085

Realistically, the lever market has very few offerings (new) now. Londinium of course, Profitec do the 800 and after that I am scratching my head for main stream stuff. Olympia do the Cremina but it is very expensive and unless your needs are for that sort of machine, why would you bother. There might be the odd Quickmill Veloce or Bezerra Strega but the latter is a dirty word to lever enthusiasts as it is a hybrid machine. Izzo do the odd one but quite a rare beast over here. Fracino do one as well but they seem to aim it purely at trailers rather than domestic. Then you drop down to the little machines like the La Pavoni.

Set a budget as a starting point


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## DavidBondy

dfk41 said:


> Realistically, the lever market has very few offerings (new) now. Londinium of course, Profitec do the 800 and after that I am scratching my head for main stream stuff. Olympia do the Cremina but it is very expensive and unless your needs are for that sort of machine, why would you bother. There might be the odd Quickmill Veloce or Bezerra Strega but the latter is a dirty word to lever enthusiasts as it is a hybrid machine. Izzo do the odd one but quite a rare beast over here. Fracino do one as well but they seem to aim it purely at trailers rather than domestic. Then you drop down to the little machines like the La Pavoni.
> 
> Set a budget as a starting point


Don't forget the La Marzocco Leva!


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## Stanic

there is also the Strietman..not so popular here as well it seems


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## Mrboots2u

Lolz , anyone got probably close 20k for a two group



DavidBondy said:


> Don't forget the La Marzocco Leva!


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## onluxtex

My favorite is the Bosco. I started with the one group Bosco and have now the Bosco with two groups, just or fun and it looks nice.

But....., even with insulated boiler it needs 45 minutes to be ready.

The Londinium is a very good lever, the Profitec too. Just for my feeling a lever has to be build in Italy, and there in Napoli.


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## 4085

I had a Bosco One group for a while. I would agree with you that owner satisfaction is tremendous with it. It just looks and feels right. however, it is not as good in the cup as an L1, or thats my humble opinion anyway, hence why I switched back last year. If it is a genuine Italian lever you desire, then there is nothing better but even the one group had a 7 litre boiler!


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## onluxtex

The workmanship of Londinium is better. The Bosco has here and there some different gaps. Italian like. If you see the workshop of the old man you understand.

The 2 group Bosco has a 12l Boiler. Before I put insulation on it, I did not need a heater in the kitchen.


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## Rhys

Not forgetting Kees Van der Westen Idrocompresso (which aren't made anymore, and is probably the price of a small house..)


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## DavidBondy

Mrboots2u said:


> Lolz , anyone got probably close 20k for a two group


I must say that I am thinking of getting another lever machine.

I'll keep my GS/3 but another tank-fed Londinium may be a possibility in the new year!

It would go well with my Titus!!

David


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## igm45

DavidBondy said:


> I must say that I am thinking of getting another lever machine.
> 
> I'll keep my GS/3 but another tank-fed Londinium may be a possibility in the new year!
> 
> It would go well with my Titus!!
> 
> David


It'll go well with your soon to be new badge!


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## DavidBondy

Hahaha. It's only taken seven years!! I don't think that there are enough hours in the day for me to ever get to five or even ten thousand!!


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## rob177palmer

So, for someone considering a lever for home use, it strikes me that, new, there is:

Pav - £400, small, overheats after two shots, fully manual

Electra - £900, small, spring (?) better than Pav but still a sealed boiler unit.

Londinium / Profitec - c £2k.

Is there really nothing in the middle?

Will the missing spreadsheet reveal something I'm missing when it finds a new home?!


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## coffeechap

There are loads of machines in the middle Pontevechio, faemina, la cimbali to name but a few


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## Stanic

Or Bezzera Strega


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## Lord Fluff

The Strega is an interesting machine - not purist enough for many, but interesting none the less. I've had mine a few years and have learnt to make very tasty shots with it (to be fair, it wasn't hard). If you want a machine to "play" with it has some aspects others do not - if you're so inclined you could do a 100% pump shot, or anything in between. I suspect if I could have bought a plumbed in machine I'd be keeping it, but using a reservoir, given we also make a lot of teas, is annoying, so I'm looking for the next lever...


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## Lord Fluff

dfk41 said:


> I had a Bosco One group... If it is a genuine Italian lever you desire, then there is nothing better but even the one group had a 7 litre boiler!


As does the Londinium L1...

I do wonder if this will lead to incredible electricity bills...Reiss assures me not, but physics would seem to indicate otherwise...


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## johnealey

The electric bills on an LII are not small but put in context depends on what you otherwise need to do with your available cash. Yes your electric bill will go up but will be dependant on how long you have it on for: 24/7 energy companies best friend, 10 -12 hours @Weekend plus 3-4 in the week and would be surprised if you spent more than 5-6 lattes out. (LII costs me about £20 month based on probably a bit more than the above)

John


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## billt

Lord Fluff said:


> As does the Londinium L1...
> 
> I do wonder if this will lead to incredible electricity bills...Reiss assures me not, but physics would seem to indicate otherwise...


I doubt that you'll notice the difference. I changed from 10 years with an Iberital L'Anna (6l boiler) to a Strega hoping for a reduction in energy consumption, but the change was not noticeable; both used about 3 kWhr per day. (The machines are on for about 16 hours a day.)

Energy loss is roughly proportional to the surface area of the boiler which scales with the cube root of the volume, so a 7l boiler only has about 1.45 as much area as a 2l boiler. A lot of the heat loss will come from the various pipes and connections anyway which reduces the influence of boiler size further.


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## Lord Fluff

Ok, that's good to know, especially as the Strega is your reference point.


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## khampal

Is there a copy of this spreadsheet somewhere? I'm potentially looking to get a spring lever machine (with a reservoir) for about £1500+-200ish, but I have only found the Strega and Rapida (sold as the veloce over here) fits this


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## Leoluo

I have the rapida/veloce hence biased. But if you'll lookat the important bits it s the same as londinium, with a huge wire mess inside, which is only for people with strong heart.

and slightly smaller boiler.

now I expect the shower from the londinium fans


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## khampal

@Leoluo how are you finding your rapida (vs your older machine - unica?)


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## Chadatron

This spreadsheet would be super useful if it is online anywhere? cheers. I am looking to pick up a lever machine for £6-800 and wanted to see if there were any other options than the Lusso or Pavoni.


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## ATZ

Chadatron said:


> This spreadsheet would be super useful if it is online anywhere? cheers. I am looking to pick up a lever machine for £6-800 and wanted to see if there were any other options than the Lusso or Pavoni.


Having researched this extensively, there aren't to be honest. Your best best is picking up something second hand, but be prepared to wait and hunt around.


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## Slowpress

dfk41 said:


> I had a Bosco One group for a while. I would agree with you that owner satisfaction is tremendous with it. It just looks and feels right. however, it is not as good in the cup as an L1, or thats my humble opinion anyway, hence why I switched back last year. If it is a genuine Italian lever you desire, then there is nothing better but even the one group had a 7 litre boiler!


 @dfk41

What were the differences in the cup, between the two machines? I would guess these specifics are likely difficult to describe, but would be most appreciative to hear your feedback... you are the only person I've encountered who has used both machines! (I've been leaning towards a Londinium R... however, it is still early days, for me.)

I realize this is an older post... sorry... I'm a latecomer to this group!


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## Planter

Slowpress said:


> @dfk41
> What were the differences in the cup, between the two machines? I would guess these specifics are likely difficult to describe, but would be most appreciative to hear your feedback... you are the only person I've encountered who has used both machines! (I've been leaning towards a Londinium R... however, it is still early days, for me.)
> 
> I realize this is an older post... sorry... I'm a latecomer to this group!


David hasn't been around much lately so you may be waiting a while for a response. Unless you're the chosen one.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## coffeechap

I have owned and used both machines side by side as well as the newer LR, what do you want to know


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## Slowpress

coffeechap said:


> I have owned and used both machines side by side as well as the newer LR, what do you want to know


 How do you guys get to be so lucky... both machines!?!?

When I read @dfk41 post, he said he felt the Bosco was "not as good in the cup" when compared to the Londinium. Do you find the brews are different "in the cup", and if so, in what way? Thank you!?


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## Slowpress

Planter said:


> David hasn't been around much lately so you may be waiting a while for a response. Unless you're the chosen one.
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


 ?


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## coffeechap

Slowpress said:


> How do you guys get to be so lucky... both machines!?!?
> 
> When I read @dfk41 post, he said he felt the Bosco was "not as good in the cup" when compared to the Londinium. Do you find the brews are different "in the cup", and if so, in what way? Thank you!?


 There is a distinct difference between the comparison that Dave did as he compared the L1 to the Bosco, and the LR whichbis the machine produced today by Londinium is a different beast entirely.

what will make the greatest difference for you is dependant on your roast profile preference, especially with the LR.

side by side the Bosco and LR were quite similar in terms of in the cup performance, the Bosco with the larger boiler yet lower rated element used more electricity and has a much bigger profile than the L1. I felt that the L1 edged it in the cup as it is much more temperature stable than the Bosco due to the way the group is fed and how the water is kept at temp in the group.

The LR is hands down a much better machine than the Bosco and offers you the versatility to get the best out of all roasts levels. However if your presence is towards the darker stuff then all you really need is a used L1


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## Slowpress

That is most helpful to know, and I thank you. And, interesting to note I might be very happy with a *used* older model L1 than the new LR. Promising!

I do enjoy experimenting with a range of roasts, and hate to limit myself (although the light end of the spectrum is invariably just too acidic for me).It's completely interesting to taste all the flavours these different roast levels bring to the cup, but my go-to preference will likely continue to lean toward a medium-dark (i.e., somewhat darker than medium, but not so dark that I lose a variety of flavour highlights).


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## Phil104

When it comes to machines, I'm utterly biased but an L1 is as close as I can get to perfection at home as it's possible to get (in fact there is nothing else in our kitchen that gets even that close, whatever its purpose - apart from maybe the parmesan grater).


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## Phil104

And, of course, I owe it all to that lever evangelist, coffee chap...it's the best cult to become a member of.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Slowpress

Phil104 said:


> When it comes to machines, I'm utterly biased but an L1 is as close as I can get to perfection at home as it's possible to get (in fact there is nothing else in our kitchen that gets even that close, whatever its purpose - apart from maybe the parmesan grater).


 If I am lucky, maybe someone will be selling a gently used & loved Londinium 1!? A person can always have hope... ?


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## Planter

Slowpress said:


> If I am lucky, maybe someone will be selling a gently used & loved Londinium 1! A person can always have hope...


Over the last year 2 or 3 L1s have come up for sale on here. You won't see as many LRs and I can only think of 1 of them. But keep your eyes peeled. They do occasionally pop up.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Phil104

Slowpress said:


> If I am lucky, maybe someone will be selling a gently used & loved Londinium 1! A person can always have hope...


Hope and patience. I haven't looked on the Londinium site to see if anyone is posting one for sale there - although more likely to be a machine outside the UK. Good hoping and waiting 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Planter

Phil104 said:


> Hope and patience. I haven't looked on the Londinium site to see if anyone is posting one for sale there - although more likely to be a machine outside the UK. Good hoping and waiting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


 The only one on there i believe is in the states.


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## Fez

The only 2 L-Rs I've seen for sale here are because the owners wanted the new one with the digital PI.

You may be waiting a long time for another used one to pop up


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## PPapa

Fez said:


> The only 2 L-Rs I've seen for sale here are because the owners wanted the new one with the digital PI.
> You may be waiting a long time for another used one to pop up


Tells a story doesn't it!


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## coffeechap

PPapa said:


> Tells a story doesn't it!


 It does indeed


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## Fez

coffeechap said:


> It does indeed


 You had me for a second with your profile pic! Had to do a double take haha


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## coffeechap

Fez said:


> You had me for a second with your profile pic! Had to do a double take haha


 Apologies, missed him so

much had to change the avatar


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## Fez

coffeechap said:


> Apologies, missed him so
> 
> much had to change the avatar


 After catching up on a few threads I see you're not alone!


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## coffeechap

Fez said:


> After catching up on a few threads I see you're not alone!


 No way !


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## MediumRoastSteam

One day.... the mythical LC will appear. One day.... 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## PPapa

There's one for sale just now.

CC@Sparkyx


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## mctaff

did the mythical spreadsheet mentioned at the beginning of this thread ever reappear?

considering upgrading my Savinelli Bologna (https://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/savinelli-bologna.html).. which I love... but I think I can get better quality espresso from a higher spec machine...

trying to figure out what options are available


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## ashcroc

mctaff said:


> did the mythical spreadsheet mentioned at the beginning of this thread ever reappear?
> 
> considering upgrading my Savinelli Bologna (https://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/savinelli-bologna.html).. which I love... but I think I can get better quality espresso from a higher spec machine...
> 
> trying to figure out what options are available


Suggest you stay clear of coffee italia. Despite their .co.uk website, they're based in Italy & don't hold stock (the machines get sent with a euro plug & dodgy adapter). Getting warranty repairs (if required) is next to impossible.


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## mctaff

We got the Savinelli lever from them 6 years ago and they have been good, but never had any warranty needs... however, when the seals went they responded to me quickly, and put me in touch with the manufacturer to buy replacements.

Agree re dodgy adapter, but 6 years later its still going strong! Not that I ever really unplug the machine though...


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## ashcroc

mctaff said:


> We got the Savinelli lever from them 6 years ago and they have been good, but never had any warranty needs... however, when the seals went they responded to me quickly, and put me in touch with the manufacturer to buy replacements.
> Agree re dodgy adapter, but 6 years later its still going strong! Not that I ever really unplug the machine though...


Yeah if everything goes smoothly & you don't need warranty repairs, I guess they're ok but it's a gamble I wouldn't be willing to take if buying new. Overall it's best if people purchase with their eyes open so they know what pitfalls there may be.


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## DrH

Hi all. I'm in the market for a lever and trying to decide which is best for my use.

For the LR owners here, what has your experience been with darker roasts? I want to experiment with all roast types by my usuals are dark and I'm worried that the LR will overextract them?

In general, how does the londinium compare to the Izzo Leva in body, mouthfeel abs taste?

Any thoughts are much appreciated.


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## Faffing

A warning to you all, amazon.de has been having Olympia Cremina's pop up in the last week for great prices, but seems some bizarre scam - would steer clear


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