# Gaggia PID Not Turning on Heating Element....HELP!



## Pompeyexile

I originally posted this problem in the Gaggia section and NJD1977 has done a sterling job in trying to help me and has had the patience of a saint because let's be fair he has been dealing with a prize pillock...Me!

But we've come to a dead end. Nothing we've tried seems to work and so I thought I'd throw it out there to all and sundry in the hope there will be someone who can get me past the finishing post.

I won't go into detail but suffice to say after blowing up my old PID I bought another and two new relays and after connecting them up, cannot get the damn thing to turn on the heating elements of the boiler. There is power to the PID because it lights up and I have been able to set the settings but using my newly acquired trusty digital multimeter (which I find works best if you take the plastic probe covers off...don't ask!) there seems to be no current between PID terminals 6 & 7.

So below are pictures of my wiring diagram PID settings and PID instructions wiring guide. Then only difference is, I have two relays (SSR 40 AA & SSR 40 DA).

I copied the PID settings from the old original PID and that worked fine before I blew it up.

The only thing I will say is that the bloke paid by the previous owner who fitted the original PID did not have two normal relays. He fitted a normal SSR 40 DA but instead of the SSR AA he made up some Frankenstein plug thingy with a home made circuit board inside which is where the rogue wire came from that originally got disconnected and I couldn't fathom out where it went. So it seemed sensible to replace the home-made with professional made relay. I've included the drawing I did of the old electrical set up before trying to replace it. So you can see what I mean.

I've been at it now on and off for weeks and I'm as frustrated as a bloke who has just taken a handful of Viagra, and turned up at a brothel with a wad of cash and found the workers are on strike.

New schematic









PID Settings









PID Instructions schematic









Original drawing of wiring from bodge job.


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## Pompeyexile

Well I know if any of you could have helped me you would have and I know it may seem like I'm being a bit impatient as I only posted this on the tech faults thread yesterday, but I'm under a bit of pressure from 'She who must be obeyed' as my coffee corner in the kitchen has more resemblance to Steptoe's yard. My machine is in bits, there's paraphernalia all over and like my hair, her patience is beginning to wear thin. Especially as it's been like this for over three weeks now with me trying to fix it.

Then I get an email from Lakeland telling me they are selling the Duo Tem at £297.49 and this coupled with their guarantee is very very tempting. Am I being too hasty?


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## MrShades

Let me try and help.

If I were you I'd simplify it to start with - and just have power to PID 1 & 2, the SSR 40DA on pins 6 and 7 and then your sensor on 8,9,10 (depending on what you're using). Disconnect the other wires from the PID to start with and don't have the output wires on the SSR connected to the heater elements (the SSR has an LED so you can see when it's engaged anyway).

Q1 - with just the connections above, does the PID power up OK - and does the initial boot-up message (where I assume it tells you the sensor type configured, eg K type) match the sensor that you're actually using?

If it's not powering up then check you power to 1 & 2. If the sensor that it thinks is connected is different to what's connected then refer to your PID manual and reconfigure it for the correct sensor.

If all yes, then...

Q2 - Does the PID show a temperature in the display, as being read from the temp sensor (and as the machine is cold with nothing connected to the elements I'd expect this to be ambient room temp of circa 20c)

If no, then the sensor wiring to 8,9,10 is probably wrong. The diagram shown is quite misleading - as it seems to show a k type TC on pins 9 and 10 - and a pt100 using white to 8, then reds to 9 and 10.

If yes, then the PID is working and the sensor is working.

Is your SV (target temp) greater than your PV (actual temp)? If so, the PID should be calling for heat and engaging the SSR by applying power to 6 and 7 - which should show by lighting the LED on the SSR.

If your SV is too low then it won't call for heat and nothing will happen - so increase the SV and see what happens.

If it should be engaging the SSR then try your multimeter on 6 and 7 or alternatively try swapping them over and see if it makes any difference.

If 6 and 7 aren't doing anything then the PID would appear to be faulty. If 6 and 7 are powering up but the SSR isn't illuminating the LED then the SSR is possibly faulty.

Give these initial tests and suggestions a whirl and report back!


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## Pompeyexile

I fitted the new thermocouple as per your instructions.

I initially connected thermocouple wires to PID 8 (white wire) 9 & 10 (red wires)

PID 1 to middle pin on-off switch.

PID 2 to piggy back with brown wire coming out of back of power in (looking at the Gaggia schematic this is neutral and top pin blue wire is live).

PID 6 + to SSR 40 DA +3

PID 7 - to SSR 40 DA -4

PID powered up boiler temp shows 20.8 SV shows 98.0 (in the settings this is set at 0980

Multimeter reading from PID pins 6&7 about 0.30

Brew temp stayed static at 20.8

Swapped wires at PID terminals 6 & 7 round at PID end no change except reading from multimeter 0.52

As red is + and black is - As I had swapped the wires at the PID end round i.e putting the -7 wire onto the +6 termainl and vice versa I also touched the + red probe to terminal 7 and -black to terminal 6 and got a reading of 03.2.

Again stable boiler and SV temp and no rising boiler temp. SO again it is not turning on the heating elements.


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## NJD1977

I'm starting to think that a defective PID is the only explanation. If you've exhausted all the tweaking of settings and still not getting anything out of pins 6&7 then it must be faulty.


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## Pompeyexile

OK I'll send it back and get another one.

Thanks for your help it is much appreciated.


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## El carajillo

Pompey, I have to give you 11 /10 for perseverance. And commend members of the forum for all the assistance they have /are giving you.

I think we could do with a vote to see all the members who are willing you to get it fixed.


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## NJD1977

Think of it as a learning experience Pompey! You now know how to use a multimeter, including how to take the probe caps off!


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## MrShades

Are any of the alarm lights on? If they are then it may well not fire the normal outputs anyway...


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## Pompeyexile

Luckily I've found another model (Mypin RNR TA4) at £12.99 with the right dimensions coming from the UK so it will be with me hopefully by Tuesday. Lucky really as I just went out to check the alarm lights as you said and knocked it and the live wire touched the casing and blew the PID.......FFS!!!

So that's the original buggered and another two I've blown up and 'Oooh Betty the cats just done a whoopsy!".

Just to warn any of you going to the Rave bash; I am too. Don't let me anywhere near any equipment and check you're insurance is all paid up. That's of course I make the 192 mile drive down...Hah!

I am truly grateful and touched by the help, time and patience given to me, and it's just this sort of thing why the recent award for this forum came Glenn's way and is so richly deserved.

Yes I have earned from this experience.......Electrics are as much as an enigma to me and impossible to understand as Hieroglyphics found on the walls of a tomb in a pyramid, scratched out by an Ancient Egyptian scribe suffering from dyslexia.

Forgive me though if after PID No 4 I still can't get it to work or I blow that one up, I do decide to move on and buy a different machine. I'm only human.


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## NJD1977

Wtf!?! You've actually blown another PID. You are actually the real life Frank Spencer! Fingers crossed the new one finally sorts it for you. I think it will.


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## Pompeyexile

So I blew the other PID about an hour and a half ago.









It's now 12:20 am and time to climb up the wooden hill to Bedfordshire. My partner Betty has gone to the fridge freezer to get some ice cold water from the dispenser.....nothing no water being pumped out and there are no lights on to show the temp of the fridge or the freezer.

So when the PID blew it apparently tripped the fuse box and all the sockets in the kitchen went off. I didn't realise because the sockets in the living room were still on, shown by the fact the lamp, TV, Sky box, surround sound amp etc were all still working.

How the chuff was I supposed to know the lounge sockets were on a different fuse to the kitchen sockets? I thought all down stairs sockets were on the same fuse. Good job she was thirsty, or else we'd have woken to a big puddle on the kitchen floor and X amount of pounds worth of food being thrown in the bin.

As I said, me and electrics..........like oil and water, just don't mix.

Note to self........Toothpaste is in the green tube not the white tube...........last time I made that mistake my mouth was numb for hours. Strong stuff that pile cream.


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## Pompeyexile

So I'm here twiddling me thumbs whistling away waiting for my new PID to arrive and mooching about wondering what to do, when I went into the kitchen and ambled over to my now electrically disembowelled Gaggia with loose wires sprouting from its innards sitting there looking all forlorn, I noticed something and suddenly a light bulb illuminated in me head.....Ping!

Now given my track record you may find what I did next a bit irresponsible to say the least and downright stupid and just asking for trouble at worst.









I know what you're saying "What on earth possessed you, you [email protected]"

Well I received a new super dooper thermocouple from Mr Shades and his instructions showed a necessary (if you didn't want to damage it) but very easy way for fitting it, which involved releasing the pump and boiler from the casing. I wasn't going to attempt it until I fitted the new PID and knew that was working OK. But peering inside just out of interest to see where the thermocouple was attached, I noted some spots of rust on the plate where everything sat.









"Oooh! I've got some stuff in the shed that'll sort that out" I thought. Kurust just paint it on and it neutralises rust and prevents any spread, drying in 15 minutes job's a goodun; Perfect! Two birds with one stone, new thermocouple and rust busting.

So there it is, and I must say this was a lot easier than I thought it would be. Using a permanent marker I made sure each electrical contact is marked with a code so I know where to put them back TB (top Brew) MS (middle steam) BP (bottom power) etc.

I'm tempted to dismantle the whole boiler just to see if it needs descaling but to be honest, the previous owner only ever used bottled water and descaled and back flushed as do I, so perhaps it would be better not to tempt fate.

Mind you, any other suggestions whilst I have it in bits. Might as well, as they say in for a penny and all that.


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## El carajillo

As it is not electrical you may as well. just release the four pins and lift off. Check the large "O" ring seal and clean the area where it rests.. If it is scaled up you can do it whilst upside down, just close the steam valve firmly (not over tight)


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## Pompeyexile

As it's not electrical? What are you trying to insinuate?

If this was 1756 I'd be challenging you to a duel, but as it's not you will be hearing from my solicitor!


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## El carajillo

Pompeyexile said:


> As it's not electrical? What are you trying to insinuate?
> 
> If this was 1756 I'd be challenging you to a duel, but as it's not you will be hearing from my solicitor!

























Badly stated, I was actually meaning it would not introduce another variable into the electricery equation.

Suitable sniveling groveling apology


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## MrShades

Now that you've realised that you fused your mains electricity when you "slipped" with your last PID, and you've obviously got the mains sockets working again now...

... are you really sure that you've blown your last PID up - or does it now (miraculously) work... now that there's 240V coming out of the wall?

Just wondering...


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## NJD1977

That's a very good point from Mr Shades!


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## Chockymonster

MrShades said:


> Now that you've realised that you fused your mains electricity when you "slipped" with your last PID, and you've obviously got the mains sockets working again now...
> 
> ... are you really sure that you've blown your last PID up - or does it now (miraculously) work... now that there's 240V coming out of the wall?
> 
> Just wondering...


where is that can of Dr Pepper?


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## Pompeyexile

Ah, well umm....the thing is....... No I didn't check to see if it was OK once the tripped fuse was re-set, mainly because it was very late Saturday when we discovered the fuse had tripped and I went straight to bed. Then on Sunday as it didn't occur to me the PID may actually have survived (because the one before didn't when the same thing happened) I set about stripping the Gaggia down and as you can see above, it is now in bits and therefore I can't check. I ordered a new PID quickly after the unfortunate accident and it will be here tomorrow or Wednesday at the latest. I will put everything back and try the one I thought I killed first. If it works then I'm back to square one. I will try the new PID though as it is a different model and the other one could have been faulty anyway which may be why the boiler heating elements weren't switching on even though I'm sure the wiring was connected up correctly.......or? We'll wait and see.

Better than a Ruth Rendell mystery this is.


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## amaferanga

Pompeyexile said:


> Luckily I've found another model (Mypin RNR TA4) at £12.99 with the right dimensions coming from the UK so it will be with me hopefully by Tuesday.


I hope I'm wrong, but isn't it the mypin ta4 SNR that you need? This has a SSR output whereas the RNR has a relay output. The SNR definitely works (that's what I have), but for your sanity I hope the RNR will work as well.


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## Pompeyexile

Oh why did you have to go and say that?

I didn't know what the letters stood for and had no idea there were different versions.

OK I've emailed the seller and asked if he would swap it for the SNR version.

Let's hope he agrees.


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## Pompeyexile

So as you know whilst I have the Gaggia's innards strewn across the kitchen worktop, I thought I'd give it a birthday and freshen it up clean off any residues and replace the O-rings etc. So I duly ordered the O-rings set and also a new pump mount as the old one has gone very soft which means the pump has a tendency to do a Ken Livingstone i.e. lean very heavily to the left.

Here's the problem. I can't seem to undo the bolts holding the boiler together. No matter how hard I try I'm at a stage where if I pull any harder I'll just twist and bend the Allen key. Also the rubber pump mount doesn't seem to want to pull off from the bottom of the pump.

knowing my record for mishaps I'm loathed to really writhe at either for fear of causing more damage and therefore incurring more cost. Any suggestions?


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## NJD1977

WD40 and a bit of heat on the bolts, either from boiling water or a hot-air gun / hairdrier? If you're only using an Allen key you might need to consider a ratchet with a socket and bit on the end to get a bit more leverage.


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## El carajillo

As NJD said the heat is initially the most effective as it expands the aluminium off the S/S bolts helping to beak corrosion. Also try tightening the bolts first to help"crack" the corrosion.

Turn the boiler upside down and place a small piece of rag /material (even kitchen roll) on each thread end, then apply W D 40, this acts as a wick and keeps the WD around the thread.

It is also applying WD directly to the thread section rather than having to soak under the head of the bolt.


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## Pompeyexile

Well the PID has finally arrived. It is a MYPIN TA Series and although the schematic shows twelve connections there are only 10.

So attempt number 3. It is a different model and the wiring schematic is not as clear to me, so below is the schematic that came with the new PID, my schematic as to how I had my old one set up, which remember didn't seem to work and the old PID settings.

So if anyone could direct me as to what wire goes from which connection on the new PID to where I'd be very grateful. I don't want to blow this one up.









New PID schematic









My schematic with old PID









Old PID settings

Thanks guys.


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## NJD1977

Just on my phone at the moment so hard to see, but looks like: 3 to DA4, 4 to DA3, 5 to bottom pin of on/off switch, 6 to AA4. 7 & 8 to the thermo couple or 7, 8, 9 to the PT100.

Best of luck! Hope this finally works for you!


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## GCGlasgow

Fingers crossed!


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## teejay41

Pompeyexile said:


> Well the PID has finally arrived. It is a MYPIN TA Series and although the schematic shows twelve connections there are only 10.
> 
> So attempt number 3. It is a different model and the wiring schematic is not as clear to me, so below is the schematic that came with the new PID, my schematic as to how I had my old one set up, which remember didn't seem to work and the old PID settings.
> 
> So if anyone could direct me as to what wire goes from which connection on the new PID to where I'd be very grateful. I don't want to blow this one up.
> 
> View attachment 14490
> 
> 
> New PID schematic
> 
> View attachment 14491
> 
> 
> My schematic with old PID
> 
> View attachment 14492
> 
> 
> Old PID settings
> 
> Thanks guys.


Which terminals are missing? If it's 5 and 6, then the Alarm output isn't there (needed for steam temp. control). There have been a lot of MYPIDs supplied lately in the UK without the alarm output, despite the terminals being shown as present on their eBay descriptions. 11 and 12 can be missing without consequence as an Alarm 2 output isn't needed. Otherwise, it looks OK.

Tony.


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## Pompeyexile

Terminals 11 & 12 are missing. As I said I just need to make sense of what does what and goes where and NJD1977 has helped so as GCGlasgow says....fingers crossed, but I think legs and eyes might help too along with stroking of a rabbit's foot, picking a four leaf clover, find a penny and pick it up, catching a ladybird and rubbing a Buddha's belly.

Just hope I don't trip over next doors black cat and fall into a mirror.

Won't be doing it until Monday though as I'm at the Rave day tomorrow.


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## amaferanga

Here's how mine is wired:

PID T1 --> middle pin at on/off at front

PID T2 --> brown (bottom) wire at rear power plug

PID T3 --> SSR 40DA T4

PID T4 --> SSR 40DA T3

PID T5 --> bottom pin at on/off at front

PID T6 --> SSR 40AA T4

PID T7/T8/T9/T10 --> for rtd (see below)

rtd: I struggled a bit with the rtd (from MrShades) because when I connected it as others said it should be it just didn't work. A bit of trial and error and I found that the two red wires went to T7 and T10 and the white went to T8. I also had to connect T8 and T9 together. Any other way simply didn't work.

I have my Al1 type set to 3 and temp of 150 degrees. This means that the Al1 light is on until the steam temp reaches 150 degrees (I thought it should be coming on when it exceeded 150 degrees, but I couldn't get that to work with any alarm type and when I found that this worked I was happy).

The only other changes I made on the PID was changing the sensor type to p100 and setting brew temp to 102 before auto tuning.


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## Pompeyexile

Well everything is back together, all the wires have a home and there was no bangs, sparks or singed hair when I switched it on.Thanks guys for your help with that.

So the final hurdle was setting up the new PID which I thought would be a doddle, except I didn't take into account the instructions couldn't be any harder to understand if they were written in brail and I was blind and trying to read them wearing a pair of boxing gloves.

The problem (a part from me being thick) is that the terminology and symbols used are different than my old PID and consequently they really don't mean a thing to me.

I did have a bash, and actually got the heating elements on the boiler to kick in and rise....and rise....and rise...and...well I think you get the picture. In fact it got so hot that it gurgled and bubbled and almost boiled dry. I did manage to stop that and set what I think is the brew temp (by luck not design) to 97 degrees and the temp did start to fall but when it went below the 97 degrees it clicked on and started to rise again but no matter what I do, I can't get it to stop at 97. It rises to about 112 to 115 before turning off the heating elements and dropping back down until it goes below 97 and then it's up again to 112 to 115 and so the cycle continues like a yo-yo and doesn't stabilize like my old one did.

I certainly don't even know how to set the steam temperature.

So I'm stuck yet again. If anyone has used a MYPIN PID and has any idea what settings go with which symbols and which I should ignore, I would be very grateful.


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## NJD1977

Have you auto tuned it yet?

Out of interest, when you say "kicks in/out".....PIDs shouldn't work like that, they should pulse an output which means the brew switch is constantly flickering on/off all the time.


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## amaferanga

For steam change Al1 type to 3 and the temperature to about 150.

Then auto-tune from cold - what your describing is similar to mine when I did the first auto-tune starting with the boiler already hot (at least that's one possible explanation - the first auto-tune maybe just didn't work).

That's all I changed manually on mine - the autotune did the rest. With a set temp of 102, mine rises to about 105 initially and settles at 102 +/- 0.2 after about 10mins.


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## Pompeyexile

Strike up the band, because with the help of you guys I've just made my first coffee on the Gaggia in over a month.

It's not perfect, for some reason the power switch light no longer comes on but since replacing a few bits cleaning and tightening it up it definitely runs quieter and doesn't vibrate as much.

I still think it needs a new solenoid because when the steam builds up there is a slight leak from the group head. But the main thing is it bloody works!

Thanks again; I couldn't have done it without you.


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## NJD1977

Hal-a-lew-ya!

Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not: nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not: the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.

Calvin Coolidge


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## Taff

I love that quote!


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## Pompeyexile

As I said she's up and running but there is one thing that is bothering me slightly. The max temp for steaming is set at 145 degrees however when I've steamed my milk for the first latte and I'm just getting the milk in the jug for the second cup the temp goes back up but sits at around 153 and then there is a pop from the group head. Is this a sign that the solenoid does need replacing?


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## El carajillo

Could it be just releasing the excess pressure from the boiler because of over shoot ?


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## Pompeyexile

Well if I knew what overshoot was I guess it could be but it never did it before with the old PID. Again I guess it could be down to a setting in the PID but what that would be and where to find it to adjust I have no idea.


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## El carajillo

Over shoot = going way past the required temperature. PID goes just above and just below to maintain the required / set temp. If it is going way to high the excess temp also increases the pressure, this may be forcing it to escape through the solenoid valve ??


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## Pompeyexile

Oh I understand now but I guess there is a setting within the PID where that can be adjusted I'm just too thick to know where. There are lots of adjustments; is it the hysteresis or offset value range or control hysteresis or proportional band? Those terms mean as much to me as looking at a bunch of Rune images.

I have let the auto tune do its thing but that doesn't seem to have stopped the popping.


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## Pompeyexile

So here are the complete settings for my MYPIN PID if anyone sees anything glaringly wrong please let me know. It settles at the 95 degrees for brewing but as I said it's the steaming temp and popping that I'm concerned about.

LSP 0

USP 146

HY1 1

HY2 1

dp 0

AL1 145

A _1 3 (PV LO Alarm)

AL2 146

A_2 3 same as AL1

PVF 0 (Offset value range)

InP Pt (Pt100 thermocouple)

P 59.92 (after auto tune)

I 87.50 (after auto tune)

d 21.87 (after auto tune)

oUd Heat

HYS 0

Ctl 001

trL 0

trH 0

bSL Pid

C-F C


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## Pompeyexile

I've decided to lower the upper temp limit to 135 and see if that stops the problem.


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## El carajillo

Any luck yet ? has it stopped misbehaving ?? We want to hear about all the coffee you are making


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## GCGlasgow

Yeh we're all waiting on a good ending to your saga!


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## Pompeyexile

Well I guess it's as good as it's going to get. The brew temp stabilises and dropping the steam temp down to 135 whilst seemed to stop the popping (although there is still a wisp of steam being emitted from the group head) meant I was stood about the same time it takes to cook a soft boiled egg just steaming for an 8oz latte. So I've upped it to 142 because like me, life's too short.

As for the coffee I thought as a tester I'd start with something I'm familiar with Rave signature, and whilst it's drinkable (the other half is chuffed to bits as she missed her evening slurp) I'll never get so much as a nosebleed let alone reach the dizzy heights I experienced at the Rave day.

I've also got some Brazil Santa Rosalia, Italian Job and Colombian Suarez to try, so the main thing is I'm back in the game; the conference maybe, but still dreaming of the premiership.

Thanks again for all the support and help.

If Carlsberg did forums....this one would be it.


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