# Silvia warm-up time?



## cjroebuck

I've read a lot of articles on the Silvia by now, and some places I've seen that you should leave the silvia on for 30-60 minutes before brewing. Is this for real?! Can anyone share experiences from using it themselves.

Is there any noticable difference between an espresso brewed after 5minutes vs one where the machine has been left on for 30minutes?

Many thanks

Chris


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## 4085

This is not limited to a Silvia. Any machine will come to brew temp in 5 to 10 minutes but the reason for leaving it, is so that the group head has the chance to come to working temp. If you pull a shot with a cold group head, it will taste awful as the group will absorb the heat.

A way around this, is once at temp, pull 500 mL of water through twice with a 30 second gap between the 2.


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## frandavi99

Curious to see what others say, but mine is rarely on for more than 5 minutes before I use it. Just a waste of electricity having it on longer.


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## cjroebuck

dfk41 said:


> This is not limited to a Silvia. Any machine will come to brew temp in 5 to 10 minutes but the reason for leaving it, is so that the group head has the chance to come to working temp. If you pull a shot with a cold group head, it will taste awful as the group will absorb the heat.
> 
> A way around this, is once at temp, pull 500 mL of water through twice with a 30 second gap between the 2.


Great, thanks for the explanation and the tip. I'll be keen to see if I can notice the difference myself once I get my new kit.


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## cjroebuck

frandavi99 said:


> Curious to see what others say, but mine is rarely on for more than 5 minutes before I use it. Just a waste of electricity having it on longer.


Have you tried leaving it on for longer and seeing if the results are noticeably different when you brew after everything has heated up?


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## frandavi99

Interesting. I'll try it tomorrow and let you know!


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## marcuswar

On E61 style machine the extra time is needed for the lump of brass that is the E61s brew head to absorb enough heat from the theromocycling boiler water. On a non E61 machine its basically the same but usually just via conducted heat from the boiler to the brew head that is physically attached to it. In both cases a hot brewhead will act as a thermal reservoir evening out the water temperature as a shot is pulled. Without this the temperature during a pull will decrease from the beginning to the end as the brewhead absorbs some of the heat from the brew water. When I had my Gaggia Classic (roughly equivalent to the Silvia) I could definitely taste a difference in the cup between a coffee made after 5mins and one made after 20-30mins. Arguing that its just a waste of electricity is a bit like saying its a waste of electricity buying fresh beans and grinding since you can buy preground.

I just have my machine on a timer (recently changed to a WeMo plug) so its fully warmed up when I get up in the morning.

In short, yes you can make a coffee after 5mins but it won't be the best possible cup of coffee... and after all, isn't this what we are striving for by being members of a coffee forum ?


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## cjroebuck

marcuswar said:


> On E61 style machine the extra time is needed for the lump of brass that is the E61s brew head to absorb enough heat from the theromocycling boiler water. On a non E61 machine its basically the same but usually just via conducted heat from the boiler to the brew head that is physically attached to it. In both cases a hot brewhead will act as a thermal reservoir evening out the water temperature as a shot is pulled. Without this the temperature during a pull will decrease from the beginning to the end as the brewhead absorbs some of the heat from the brew water. When I had my Gaggia Classic (roughly equivalent to the Silvia) I could definitely taste a difference in the cup between a coffee made after 5mins and one made after 20-30mins. Arguing that its just a waste of electricity is a bit like saying its a waste of electricity buying fresh beans and grinding since you can buy preground.
> 
> I just have my machine on a timer (recently changed to a WeMo plug) so its fully warmed up when I get up in the morning.
> 
> In short, yes you can make a coffee after 5mins but it won't be the best possible cup of coffee... and after all, isn't this what we are striving for by being members of a coffee forum ?


Looks like i'm going to have to add timer plug/wemo plug to my list of extras! Thanks for the detailed info.


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## marcuswar

You can get a cheap mechanical style timer for a pound or two.

Just make sure you leave your coffee machines power button switched on, the steam wand is closed, the boiler is fully primed and that the water tank has water in it.


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## cjroebuck

marcuswar said:


> You can get a cheap mechanical style timer for a pound or two.
> 
> Just make sure you leave your coffee machines power button switched on, the steam wand is closed, the boiler is fully primed and that the water tank has water in it.


Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by the boiler is fully primed? If I leave enough water in the tank, and have the power on, will it go into the boiler by itself or do I need to run some water through manually using the brew button? I haven't got the machine at hand yet, I'm just going by all the videos and reviews I've read. I've heard about some newbies like myself over cooking the boiler by not having enough water in it, I guess my question is how to not make this schoolboy error?

Thanks


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## The Systemic Kid

When you steam, water isn't drawn into the boiler so it can run dry which is the primary cause of element failure on these types of machine - Classic is more at risk as it has a much smaller boiler capacity. Always a good idea, after steaming, to run the brew button for a bit. This will fill the boiler.


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## frandavi99

Like I said I'll give it a try tomorrow, if it improves the coffee then it's obviously not a waste of electricity!


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## marcuswar

The Systemic Kid said:


> When you steam, water isn't drawn into the boiler so it can run dry which is the primary cause of element failure on these types of machine - Classic is more at risk as it has a much smaller boiler capacity. Always a good idea, after steaming, to run the brew button for a bit. This will fill the boiler.


What he said









The Classic has the heating elements on the outside of the boiler (heating the actual boiler) rather than internal to the boiler (heating the water direct) , so maybe in someways the classic is les prone as the boiler body will be dissipating heat even with no water in it?

Anyway, regardless, like you said I would always re prime the boiler after use. On a Classic priming the boiler simply involves opening up the steam wand and pressing the brew switch (not the steam switch) until water comes out of the steam tip. When this happens it means the boiler is full.


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## cjroebuck

marcuswar said:


> What he said
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Classic has the heating elements on the outside of the boiler (heating the actual boiler) rather than internal to the boiler (heating the water direct) , so maybe in someways the classic is les prone as the boiler body will be dissipating heat even with no water in it?
> 
> Anyway, regardless, like you said I would always re prime the boiler after use. On a Classic priming the boiler simply involves opening up the steam wand and pressing the brew switch (not the steam switch) until water comes out of the steam tip. When this happens it means the boiler is full.


Cool. I'm assuming its the same process on the Silvia to refill the boiler?


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## The Systemic Kid

marcuswar said:


> The Classic has the heating elements on the outside of the boiler (heating the actual boiler) rather than internal to the boiler (heating the water direct) , so maybe in someways the classic is les prone as the boiler body will be dissipating heat even with no water in it?


Latest Silvia variant - V4 has the heating element configured outside the boiler like the Classic.


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## The Systemic Kid

cjroebuck said:


> Cool. I'm assuming its the same process on the Silvia to refill the boiler?


Switch off the steam switch, close the steam wand and run the brew switch until the spluttering dies down - then switch power off.


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## cjroebuck

I just came across this article on cheating the Silvia into warming up faster than usual:

http://www.coffeekid.com/archived/rancilio/cheatsilvia

Might be useful to some people. Let me know if theres anything in there that is terrible advice!


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## 7877

Personally I would pretty much always go with about 45 mins warm up time on my old Silvia (used a socket timer doodah), so inline with what you read. At a push I would do the quick heat up trick at pushing water through, but honestly given some of the temp inconsistencies with the Silvia trying to force it to play ball too early just makes it harder to pull a decent shot...and I had a PID.


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## AussieEx

Don't forget to lock in the portafilter (with basket) while the machine is heating up too! Otherwise the temp differential from boiler to PF plays havoc with consistency (and quality).

30 mins is really the minimum, and be glad you don't have a multi-group commercial machine which requires an hour plus...


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## hotmetal

Totally different machine, but after a mid-week waking up failure (me not the machine!) I made a coffee on my Rocket without giving it the usual 45 min warm up and the shot was thin and sour. It definitely makes a difference and with the heavy E61 group, warm-up time is the flip side to the thermal stability you get from 9lb of brass. I used to find 20min the minimum for the Classic but just not enough for an E61. Very good point about locking the PF in during warm up too. Have occasionally forgotten that when I'm bleary-eyed in the morning. Although that can be rescued with a bit of water from the water wand into a cup and dunking the PF in it if push comes to shove and you've forgotten.


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## Wando64

I usually keep the machine on for approximately 15 minutes before I make the coffe (this as a minimum), but most importantly I flush quite a bit of water though both the group and the steam wand whilst the machine is warming up. THIS in my experience makes a huge difference in ensuring consistency between shots (on a Silvia, of course. Not so relevant of other machines).


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## Wando64

The Systemic Kid said:


> Latest Silvia variant - V4 has the heating element configured outside the boiler like the Classic.


Can you please tell me how did you find this out?

I thought the only difference was that the element can be replaced independently from the boiler, but I've not seen one yet.

EDIT: I've done a Google search and found this: http://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=set-ranc-1uk

The element is still inside the boiler as I thought.


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## marcuswar

You can get the warmup time on a E61 machine down to about 20 to 30mins by wrapping a towel around the brew head as it heats up.


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## AussieEx

Wando64 said:


> Can you please tell me how did you find this out?
> 
> I thought the only difference was that the element can be replaced independently from the boiler, but I've not seen one yet.


I was also under the impression that the difference is that the v4 has a screw-in element instead of a welded-in one. Dr Google seems to confirm this.


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## hotmetal

marcuswar said:


> You can get the warmup time on a E61 machine down to about 20 to 30mins by wrapping a towel around the brew head as it heats up.


Sounds like a good idea, I suppose it couldn't do any harm could it? I suppose as long as the towel is cotton it'll be fine. Cheers for the tip. That might mean 15 minutes more sleep


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## AussieEx

On the contrary.... My fear that I'll be drinking a horrid coffee is what gets me out of bed to ensure the 30-min warm-up time!


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## marcuswar

The only "problem" with the towel is that you really do want to remove it after 20-30mins i.e. don't forget and leave it on much longer (as I have done in the past) as it will overheat the head which means lots of spluttering and steam and a long cooling flush to get it back down to temperature. It also seems to me that I tend to get a fluctuating pressure gauge if I leave it on too long and have to remove the pressure gauge and heat the coil to remove the water from it. This may be just a coincidence but that's how it looks to me from my own experiences. It's fine as long as you remove after 20mins or so.

If you really want extra time in bed then get a timer plug


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## frandavi99

So first coffee of the day with a fully prewarmed grouphead and PF did taste noticeably different. Poor distribution means I'll have to try it again later to be sure but coffee had a lot more body than usual. Live and learn, now I'll be spending the rest of the day sourcing a timer to plug it into.


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## cjroebuck

frandavi99 said:


> So first coffee of the day with a fully prewarmed grouphead and PF did taste noticeably different. Poor distribution means I'll have to try it again later to be sure but coffee had a lot more body than usual. Live and learn, now I'll be spending the rest of the day sourcing a timer to plug it into.


What do you mean by poor distribution?

I read this article a while back (http://www.coffeecrew.com/gear-equipment-coffee/411-living-with-the-rancilio-silvia.html) and one of the tips is:


Do not put your Rancilio Silvia on a timer (to have it pre-warm before you get up in the morning). Unless you can devise a way of having it prime itself, it is not a good idea.

Any thoughts on this?

Also, what is the consensus on steaming first vs brewing first. Most things I've read have advised steaming first if making milk based drink, but then there is a sticky thread outlining the different kinds and prices ranges of machines on this forum which suggests to brew first then steam for single boiler machines.


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## marcuswar

cjroebuck said:


> Do not put your Rancilio Silvia on a timer (to have it pre-warm before you get up in the morning). Unless you can devise a way of having it prime itself, it is not a good idea.
> 
> Any thoughts on this?


Yes... that's what we were talking about on post #9, #11 and #16

As long as you always re prime the boiler after using the machine and make it part of your coffee making ritual you'll be fine. The Gaggia Classic is exactly the same in this respect and I never had any issues running it on a timer for over a year.


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## cjroebuck

Yep, I wonder why the guy didn't just say that then, rather than implying that it needs to be re-primed each time it switches back on. Thanks for putting out any doubt.


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## Olliehulla

Assuming people know how to use their Silvia's, unless they're lazy or stupid a timer should be fine.

On the topic of milk or shot first, I just couldn't get the milk steaming first to work for me.


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## marcuswar

Yep, coffee first, then steam milk every time for me. If you do it the other way around you have to purge the steam, refill the boiler and wait the temperature to stabilise at the lower brew temp. Plus your milk will have started to cool and separate by this point so no latte art


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## hotmetal

Cheers Marcus. I tried the towel thing, but the second time I tried it I did actually fall back to sleep for a whole hour and a half so have decided not to use this method in the mornings, only for occasions when I haven't had the machine on.

Used the timer for the first time today. Worked a treat, and I had even checked the water levels etc before going to bed. Except I was too late getting up was still brewing when I should have left for work! Guess what? Timer switched the machine off mid-shot. Oh well&#8230; maybe I should train the dog. (Would need to get a dog first). EDIT: that would mean taking it out for a walk, which would mean getting up 20 minutes earlier. And I'd need a coffee for that. :-/

<end of thread hijack></end>


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## marcuswar

Yeah I'd only use the towel trick for those times when the timer failed or you just need an unexpected coffee quickly.

Re the turning off mid shot.. LoL.. that's happened to me a few times for a slightly different reason. The Isomac has a pressure switch under the water tank and if the water gets too low then it essentially turns off the machine. The water tank is entirely hidden from view and I have to remember to check the level every few days. Problem is I don't and then end up like yourself with half a shot... its is SO ANNOYING!


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## cjroebuck

This is coming from a Seattle coffee gear video. They suggest that cooling down from steam temp to brew temp is quicker than going the other way. Regarding the microfoam, they suggest to keep on mixing it so it doesn't separate. I have a Silvia on the way now so I will be learning all this based on my own experience very soon.

Has anyone been able to measure the temperature of the PF / grouphead reliably with, say, an infrared thermometer? So that you can tell more accurately when the best time to brew a shot is. I was thinking of buying one as they are not too expensive, but then they don't work too well with shiny surfaces.


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## marcuswar

Mmm.. so now I have to keep spinning the milk in the jug while I pull the shot and watch my scales for the extraction weight..sounds a bit like patting my head and rubbing my tummy. On the Classic the time to from brew to steam was only about 10 seconds so I'd still say coffee first and milk second.

I guess the best advice is try both ways and see what works best for you


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## Vieux Clou

Raises the question of whether regularly leaving the PF in place during a 45-minute warm-up will reduce head gasket life. I do it, but I don't feel very happy about it.


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## johnealey

Read all the above with interest and to offer up a tuppence worth:

1. 20mins minimum with a flush through ideally 30mins warm up. Run brew switch until light kicks in to reheat. Once boiler cuts out and you ready to pull a shot, press brew button until water stops spitting out ( 2-3 seconds) temp will be about fine. (This is part of the reason people PID them)

2. Steaming first is a pain in the proverbial and guess primary reason for doing milk first then coffee would be to ensure the boiler full again; for me coffee first every time and see point 3.

3. Immediately after steaming the milk, wrap half a wet piece of kitchen roll around the steam wand, then run the brew switch until the light comes on (if you want to ensure boiler now cool also) or until spluttering stops and constant stream of water coming out. Use a suitable small container for this as the drip tray really is only big enough for drips. Whilst this going on swirl the milk, pour in to cups etc and when done clean steam wand whilst admiring your excellent latte art (note, said yours , not mine....). Once clean, quick turn of the steam dial will expel any milky resdue left in.

4. Microfoam definately possible, lots of videos on you tube, one MrBoots2U has linked to in the past pretty good, also a nice little clip on the Rave coffee website

5. Don't skimp on the jug. Whilst you can create good microfoam in an ikea £5 jug, getting any meaningful art or texture out requires something with a decent spout ( lots of different types and lots of different threads on here)

6. Always check the tank is full also or at least has enough water in for the early morning coffee....

7. Timer: every time, cracking device to allow you plenty of time to warm it up whilst still snoozing. WeMo's allow you to turn them on remotely but a simple timer plug will do if you always out and home at same time.

8. Check, if using a timer, that the stem valve shut and more crucially, the brew switch was not the one you switched on by mistake.

9. V4 boiler definately an internal heating element but improvement over V3 in the the V3 boiler and element were one unit so more of a PITA to replace; V4 element only needs replacing

10. gently engage the portafilter not lock it tight and the gasket will be fine. Just aim to gently make contact with the gasket so the portafilter is in loose contact ( doesn't need to be in tight). Original group head gasket in mine 2 years on, no leaks.

11. Don't forget the grinder.

12. Plastic tamper supplied in the box best used as an emergency plug in the sink, cheapish decent ones start around a tenner up to silly money, is a personal preference / cost thing as is point 11 once you get into the "decent range" a bewildering choice

Am sure there are other nuggets of info painfully gleaned in the two years of ownership and woudl like to point out that I have not toasted my boiler in that time following the above methods but have replace 2 boilers fro a friend who was insistent on leaving the boiler empty at the end of steaming... ( have however, left the steam tap open which caught just before it ran out of water and done the same with the brew switch but fortunately caught also before running out of water.

Hope of help and enjoy your silvia ( will not tell mine that someone earlier compared her to a classic, normally ends in a sulk. Her boiler is much bigger!  )

John


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## cappuccino crackers

so for the above and excuse the ignorance, 1. pull shot. 2. steam milk. 3. turn off steam button and flick on how water . 4. wait till hot water comes from steam wand. indicating that boiler is filled?? once this achieved is it safe to switch boiler striaght off??


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## cappuccino crackers

allowing warm up first though sorry


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## hotmetal

Vieux Clou said:


> Raises the question of whether regularly leaving the PF in place during a 45-minute warm-up will reduce head gasket life. I do it, but I don't feel very happy about it.


I wouldn't worry too much personally. I never used to leave the PF locked in overnight (although not doing so kind of defeats the object of using a timer to some extent). But group gaskets are cheap consumables in the scheme of things and also about the easiest thing on the machine to replace. If you're worried maybe allow the group to heat on its own and then lock in the PF maybe 10 min before brew. That should be enough time to bring the PF up to group temp I'd guess.


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## frandavi99

cjroebuck said:


> What do you mean by poor distribution?


I just meant my technique was poor so may have impacted the coffee.

I actually found preheating gave me a more bitter coffee; I'm assuming as I've tweaked my current recipe for a different group head temp. So not going to start preheating properly until I've finished this bag of beans. Lazy I know, but I don't have a day off to play until Sunday, which conveniently is about when my current stash will run out.


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## Olliehulla

cappuccino crackers said:


> so for the above and excuse the ignorance, 1. pull shot. 2. steam milk. 3. turn off steam button and flick on how water . 4. wait till hot water comes from steam wand. indicating that boiler is filled?? once this achieved is it safe to switch boiler striaght off??


exactly what I do


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## AussieEx

I wait until I've enjoyed my coffee (or at least started it) before starting the cleaning routine:

1. Pull shot

2. Steam milk and turn off steam switch and steam wand

3. Attempt latte art and drink some coffee... yum [edit: this takes

4. Open steam wand and activate hot water switch until water comes out. Deactivate switch then turn off steam wand.

5. Run a bit of water through the group, giving it a little clean with a cleaning bush.

6. Machine to off, clean up milk jugs.


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## AussieEx

marcuswar said:


> The Isomac [...] water tank is entirely hidden from view and I have to remember to check the level every few days. Problem is I don't and then end up like yourself with half a shot... its is SO ANNOYING!


Same issue on the Silvia. For me what works is I have a Grindenstein knock-box which fits ~5 double-shot pucks in it before needing to be emptied. Happily, the Silvia water tank has comfortably enough water for 10 flat whites (including milk steaming, moderate flushing flows, cleaning etc).

So I leave the pucks in the Grindenstein, and on Day 5 / Coffee session 5 empty the pucks into the food waste and refill the water tank. Puck-based water level monitor!

Hasn't failed me yet.


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## cjroebuck

Does using fresh water have a big impact on the quality of your espresso?


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## AussieEx

I've switched to bottled since moving from Scotland to Norwich. The water does impart its flavour on the espresso, but it's not the first thing I'd worry about (except if you have very hard water like here, since it scales up machines).


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## johnealey

cappuccino crackers said:


> so for the above and excuse the ignorance, 1. pull shot. 2. steam milk. 3. turn off steam button and flick on how water . 4. wait till hot water comes from steam wand. indicating that boiler is filled?? once this achieved is it safe to switch boiler striaght off??


point 4 above: not water from the steam wand but through the grouphead turning off the brew switch either when light comes on for the boiler or water coming through brewhead not so "bubbly" / "spitty" and yes you could turn it off at this point safe in the knowledge that the boiler primed for next use (whilst you could do it through the steam wand would be longer and no benefit compared to shutting the steam valve and hitting the brew switch)

Believe running water through the steam wand more of an instruction from Gaggia manuals?

Ultimately, whatever works for you is best as long as you don't cook the element that is.

Keeping the portafilter in the grouphead loose i.e. about 7 to 8 o'clock keeps it safe, away from being knocked and gently warms it in contact with all the brass in the grouphead.Agree with the comment re the grouphead gasket, have had a spare ready since i bought my silvia, just not had to fit it yet.

Hope the above of help / clarifies

John


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## AussieEx

The V3 Silvia manual says run water through steam wand on hot water setting to refill the boiler.

Edit: I remember reading somewhere that this is due to the location of the steam wand/hot water outlet from the boiler compared with the group. I haven't checked myself.


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## frandavi99

Would I be right in assuming this is only necessary after steaming milk? Just using the group head for the shot triggers the boiler to refill...?


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## marcuswar

AussieExpat said:


> The V3 Silvia manual says run water through steam wand on hot water setting to refill the boiler.
> 
> Edit: I remember reading somewhere that this is due to the location of the steam wand/hot water outlet from the boiler compared with the group. I haven't checked myself.


Using the open steam wand is definitely the correct technique on the Gaggia Classic as the steam valve is at the top of the boiler so the boiler has to be full of water before water comes out. I believe the brew water is taken from about half way up the boiler so it may only be half full when water comes out of the brew head. Being a single boiler machine I would imagine the Silvia is the same.


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