# Oracle Touch possible channeling ?



## PoGo (1 mo ago)

Hi guys! New to forum, sry for my English. I have Oracle Touch for around a year. Had some problems with fan adjusting but I got passed that.

Unfortunately recently I’ve encountered extraction issues. Coffee is the same but one extraction is perfect 21-22g for 44g another is like 2x times more liquid. It’s coffee after coffee. There is obviously some channeling happening. But when I look after tamping I don’t see any meaningful differences in puck preparation. It looks tamped after removing portafilter from the grinder. 

I’ve recently switched coffee, dialed in yesterday, pulled off some good cups. But today had to do 3 coffees in the morning to get the right extraction. I don’t know if any of you encountered similar issues. 

Any feedback will be much appreciated, maybe there’s something wrong with my oracle tamper?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've never used an Oracle,
Maybe as you have done something to the fan your tamping is now too light, 

21-22g sounds a lot for a Sage double to me but beans do vary. I'd expect around 19g and 1g variation will alter the flow. However on the dose of grinds you would be better advised to ask what people use in the double basket on the Sage DB and or Oracle as I don't use it. I use a different brand of filter baskets so that I can use a wider range of grind weights, This isn't because there is something wrong with Sage baskets, There isn't other than on the 58mm baskets the single can be hard to use,

What some do is weigh the shot as it's being poured and terminate manually when it reaches the correct amount. 1g equals 1ml. Variation in shot time have less effect on taste, Say +/- 5secs or less. Actual taste is the important aspect.


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## PoGo (1 mo ago)

Thank you for feedback. Yeah, I also think that 22g is a lot but that's what specification of the Sage Oracle says, there is even info on the box that it uses 19-22g. When I tried to lower the dose I encountered many tamping issues. Basically lowering the dose means that you lower the tamper fan. There is a single dose basket from sage but I don't use it very often I heard that single dose 58mm baskets are not the best choice for even extraction because of the shape.

I've also used IMS for some time. But had some issue with tamping using IMS basket. I thought that maybe tamper doesn't work best with a little different basket shape. I think that Sage tamper is not the best solution for even distribution or maybe it's hard to calibrate properly and I just don't know what to do. 

I always target pulling the shot in 28-30s and 1:2 ratio. I'm not a barista, started my coffee journey a year ago because I wasn't satisfied with bean to cup machines espresso. I know I can try to remove fan and tamp it manually but the automatic tamper is very convenient.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

You could try using a spring loaded calibrated tamper after the machine has done it's job. You'd be starting off with level grinds which helps. Pass on if this would help or not. A very light tamp is ~10kg. I use 15 and have wondered about going to 20 but that is on Sage DB. The boiler etc is the same as yours. I've used 15 for some years now.Could be time for a change,

Baskets, My impression on IMS is that some use them to get more grinds in and that on a Sage they will hold more than their stated capacity, I use Fracino baskets. All hold more than their stated capacity on my DB, The razor tool is useful for giving an indication of fill height but usually a gram or so more can be added, These are ridged baskets. Using those eventually weakens the portafilter spring. If I used a Sage basket now it would pop out when I knocked the puck out, The ridged baskets also need a cheap extraction tool to get them out,

Some one early on did a decent run down on the Oracle not long after it came out. This was before they calibrated it's tamp. The main problem he had with the single was what dose to use. Get that wrong and given the design of the basket tamping could finish up hitting the basket so no idea of what the grinds were actually getting. If Sage now state a weight I wouldn't argue with them, The new DB I bought a couple of weeks ago comes with the same baskets as my previous one and no stated weights, Rather than worrying about what the web says about the single personally I would just try it. They are designed to help the flow not make it worse, There is as a high end basket that departs from that general idea and it's a pig to use.

I drink americano which in some ways relates to espresso shot drinkers. Some of those water an espresso shot down to open up the flavors. So I buy a bean based on the flavor the retailer states and alter mostly ratio until I achieve them even on very light roasts, Also 2nd crack roasts if available. Or anything between the 2,


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## grant brown (1 mo ago)

type of bean and possiblly too course grind might cause it. you may have adjusted the fan for a fifferent bean type?


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## Laudrup1 (Aug 14, 2020)

PoGo said:


> Hi guys! New to forum, sry for my English. I have Oracle Touch for around a year. Had some problems with fan adjusting but I got passed that.
> 
> Unfortunately recently I’ve encountered extraction issues. Coffee is the same but one extraction is perfect 21-22g for 44g another is like 2x times more liquid. It’s coffee after coffee. There is obviously some channeling happening. But when I look after tamping I don’t see any meaningful differences in puck preparation. It looks tamped after removing portafilter from the grinder.
> 
> ...


I'd be keen to see more answers to this too. 

I pour one cup in the morings myself before going to work and it's ideal. I'm using pretty much the exact same doseage and timings as yourself. 20 in for 40g out and 25 - 30 seconds. I know on a daily basis (if the beans have been in the hopper) to adjust the grind settings accordingly etc. 

If someone is over on the weekend and I pull two shots, the first will be like the above and more often than not the second is a watery mess as if the puck has channeled badly and you'll end up with 60g in 15 seconds to the point the shot isn't recoverable. 

Keen to find out if there's a solution at all...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I don't use an Oracle so a bit tough for ideas. I use a DB which as far as brewing is concerned isn't really any different. It just lacks fan, display type etc. However I produce shots with a button set for 30sec and check the weight that comes out. The weight of grinds will be very consistent but even then there can be flyers, For instance a new DB. Fresh lot of beans, Set the grinder up and get a run of shots 14g in and close to 42g out. Even small changes to preparing the grinds can spoil that. For instance I tap the grinds down while in the portafilter twice. Alter that or do it a lot more firmly and the shot weight will change, Then I get one that gives ~30g out for no apparent reason. Next one as usual. The grinder does need adjustments now and again. Small ones as beans age more.

I have used 2 versions of Sage grinders. All are the same where they crop up, just the adjustment mechanism changes, I did have one choke up with a particular bean. Looking into the grind chamber hopper off and the outer burr removed there should be a ring of grinds around the chamber. It shouldn't be full. Time for a good clean then including the route out to the portafilter. I might mean that the bean is unsuitable for the machine. I had this with an extremely oily bean. 2nd crack and far more oily than these usually are but only when I changed supplier. From a dead clean grinder - I have wondered if it would have been ok if I used something else until it settled down to how it should be.

Clumps can cause problems. Not static ones really. Solid ones. Brand new grinder can have these until the burrs have been run in. On a commercial grinder some might run 10kg through before making coffee with it. I found 2 helped, Taste changes as they run in as well. I've used larger cheap bags off Amazon that look to be well rated and sell  might even taste some. Not impressed. Some ask a supplier for suitable beans for running in. Probably out of a bad batch that didn't roast as they should. This can't be done quickly as the motor mustn't overheat. It might even on a commercial grinder. They are intended for one shot and a time lag before the next.

Dose of grinds and fill height. The density of beans vary. On Sage machines if the used puck shows signs of the shower screen fixing screw it is a bit over filled. If signs of the hex socket in it more so. There is no problem with this in some ways but grind weight changes have more effect. The grinds expand when wet and are hitting the shower screen. That can set how much tamping the puck is really getting. It can go pretty high that way or the other way. either down to tamping or dose weight variations. One way people have checked this area is to place a coin on the prepared puck. Fit the portafilter. Remove and then the coin. If the coin leaves an impression too much grinds. Any of the thinner coins should do.

The only other thing I can think of is checking the weight of the grinds that finish up in the portafilter especially when having problems. At a fixed time altering the grinder setting will change the amount that comes out.

Beans can be weighed into Sage grinders. Once the grinder has settled down as above the output is pretty consistent to a fraction of a gram. Before that it will be short by varying amounts as it settles down,

 I hope there isn't any of my odd typo's in that lot.


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