# ACS Minima dual boiler machine or alternatives



## Obidi (Feb 23, 2019)

I've been doing a little research with regards to buying my first espresso machine. My head is spinning now!

I came across this very comprehensive review which has made me think that this machine may fit the bill.

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2018/08/04/acs-minima/

If anyone has any advice, info or alternative suggestions, it would be very much appreciated.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I think it's a great review, and the final production machine is even better!


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## Obidi (Feb 23, 2019)

Thanks Dave, just realised it's your review. There are several machines around this price, so it's a little difficult to choose. I notice that this is on offer at Bella Barista 'Expobar Leva Dual Boiler' what's your opinion of this machine compared with the ACS Minima?



DavecUK said:


> I think it's a great review, and the final production machine is even better!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Obidi said:


> Thanks Dave, just realised it's your review. There are several machines around this price, so it's a little difficult to choose. I notice that this is on offer at Bella Barista 'Expobar Leva Dual Boiler' what's your opinion of this machine compared with the ACS Minima?


The expobar is also entry level, very old school and dated design. If I were on the market for an e61 machine at a budget, I know which one I'd go for.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

If I needed another Machine, pricewise it would be the Minima and at £1200 not a bad price.


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## Obidi (Feb 23, 2019)

Ok, @*MediumRoastSteam *so you'd go for the Minima?



MediumRoastSteam said:


> The expobar is also entry level, very old school and dated design. If I were on the market for an e61 machine at a budget, I know which one I'd go for.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

You've read the review. Other points to consider:

1. The boilers are what they are because they are off-the-shelf made by a third party. The heater elements are integral and cannot be changed independently. If replacement boilers are not available a few years down the line then you are left with a shiny doorstop.

2. The e61 group comes without the usual spring based pre-infusion chamber which stops the rise in pressure for a second or two. This arrest in pressure rise is in addition to the slow pressure ramp up. The Minima cannot do this. In this review the same reviewer waxes lyrical about the spring based pre-infusion function on another e61 machine, which like the Minima, also has a vibratory pump.

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2017/11/20/lelit-mara-pl62s/

3. The Minima pre-production test machine came with an e61 group with a wonkily drilled front hole. You may wish to ascertain that this does not also apply to production models, particularly if you consider fitting a thermometer or a manometer to the group


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Obidi said:


> Ok, @*MediumRoastSteam *so you'd go for the Minima?


Personally - yes. The best advice I could give you is for you to go to Bella Barista and see the machines on the flesh. I went there with a similar Intention, to buy an Expobar Pulser. I came out with a Rocket Cellini, and a month later I swapped for a Profitec 700.

Make a day trip if you wish, but if you are going to spend over 1k on something, it's best you buy the right thing.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

This is an interesting point, and I don't know how the Minima deals with the slower ramp up in pressure and maybe hence why it doesn't need the pre-infusion chamber (bottom part of the e61). Maybe DavecUK can explain more about the design. However, as the name says "Minima" is for a machine which can produce great espresso at a minimal cost, so costs have to be cut down somewhere. The expobar for example, if memory serves me right, is famous for having a thermosyphon which can stall, therefore the group won't heat up from cold sometimes. If memory doesn't fail me, I think @Rob1 had both the expobar and the minima. I might be wrong though.



> 2. The e61 group comes without the usual spring based pre-infusion chamber which stops the rise in pressure for a second or two. This arrest in pressure rise is in addition to the slow pressure ramp up. The Minima cannot do this. In this review the same reviewer waxes lyrical about the spring based pre-infusion function on another e61 machine, which like the Minima, also has a vibratory pump.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I would just like to add that all 3 points made by Nikko are incorrect and highly misleading. I still have to update the beta1 review you have read with the updates incorporated in the final production Minima.

The production machine is really nice and it came out really well. I believe it will represent a new standard in dual boiler machines at that price point and deliver the same or better performance of machines costing £800+ more money.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Yes the thermosyphon for the expobar stalls when the service boiler refill is triggered when it cools down after use. No idea if it's because of refill or the cooling water in the HX causing the level to drop in the brew boiler.

I have a beta minima and don't want to go back to the expobar. I find cleaning the group much easier, steaming is better, espresso quality is the same.

If they're around the same price go for the Minima.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Obidi said:


> Thanks Dave, just realised it's your review. There are several machines around this price, so it's a little difficult to choose. I notice that this is on offer at Bella Barista 'Expobar Leva Dual Boiler' what's your opinion of this machine compared with the ACS Minima?


Bella barista are out of stock aren't they?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Rob1 said:


> Bella barista are out of stock aren't they?


Their website is showing 2 left in stock to me.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

ashcroc said:


> Their website is showing 2 left in stock to me.


Of the Expobar?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Rob1 said:


> Of the Expobar?


No, the minima.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Oh ok. Wires crossed there...the quoted part I was referring to was "I notice that this is on offer at Bella Barista 'Expobar Leva Dual Boiler".


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Rob1 said:


> Oh ok. Wires crossed there...the quoted part I was referring to was "I notice that this is on offer at Bella Barista 'Expobar Leva Dual Boiler".


Got that after you quiried my reply.


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> I would just like to add that all 3 points made by Nikko are incorrect and highly misleading. I still have to update the beta1 review you have read with the updates incorporated in the final production Minima.
> 
> The production machine is really nice and it came out really well. I believe it will represent a new standard in dual boiler machines at that price point and deliver the same or better performance of machines costing £800+ more money.


Dave, thanks for explaining, looking forward to seeing updated review as interested in one of these. Are the boilers off the self then? Whats the approximate cost/how would you get one if needed?


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## Obidi (Feb 23, 2019)

I've just been looking on the Bella Barista site at the ACS Minima and saw the Lelit Bianca.. ....... Oh dear!

A question for @DavecUK - Bearing in mind that I'm a beginner, but that I may be tempted to pay the extra for the Bianca, which should I buy?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Obidi said:


> I've just been looking on the Bella Barista site at the ACS Minima and saw the Lelit Bianca.. ....... Oh dear!
> 
> A question for @DavecUK - Bearing in mind that I'm a beginner, but that I may be tempted to pay the extra for the Bianca, which should I buy?


That's really difficult, because I own a Vesuvius, a Bianca and now have a Minima back on the counter. I also have a Duetto (sentimental value). I like em all, what can I say. Will you like a Minima, Yes, will you like a Bianca, Yes, would you like a Vesuvius, almost certainly yes. Will the coffee be good from all of them...yes. On balance the Biancas simpler and liable to be easier on maintenance over it's lifetime....but doesn't have the potential to pressure/flow profile. Let your heart and wallet guide you. Remember if you "under buy", usually it leads to an upgrade later and the vultures circling on here love the weakness of an upgrade fire sale!

I'm sure others will advise you better than me.

The Bianca does come with access to my super wonderful videos for how to get the best from it.


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## Obidi (Feb 23, 2019)

Thanks Dave. I can't afford the vesuvius, so that's easy. I can afford both the minima and the bianca, although it's a push for the bianca. I'm in France, so reliability is a real consideration as in the case of a fault,I would either have to try and get the machine back to the UK for BB to sort or look for a repairer here. I'm worried about something going wrong and struggling to get a repair (although I realise any machine can go wrong). I always do this, I start off with a reasonable wish list and then start to research and it all goes out the window..........



DavecUK said:


> That's really difficult, because I own a Vesuvius, a Bianca and now have a Minima back on the counter. I also have a Duetto (sentimental value). I like em all, what can I say. Will you like a Minima, Yes, will you like a Bianca, Yes, would you like a Vesuvius, almost certainly yes. Will the coffee be good from all of them...yes. On balance the Biancas simpler and liable to be easier on maintenance over it's lifetime....but doesn't have the potential to pressure/flow profile. Let your heart and wallet guide you. Remember if you "under buy", usually it leads to an upgrade later and the vultures circling on here love the weakness of an upgrade fire sale!
> 
> I'm sure others will advise you better than me.
> 
> The Bianca does come with access to my super wonderful videos for how to get the best from it.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Using good water pretty much guarantees minimal faults from any machine. It's a lot of money so let your heart guide you. However, never spend more than you can afford.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> I would just like to add that all 3 points made by Nikko are incorrect and highly misleading. I still have to update the beta1 review you have read with the updates incorporated in the final production Minima.
> 
> The production machine is really nice and it came out really well. I believe it will represent a new standard in dual boiler machines at that price point and deliver the same or better performance of machines costing £800+ more money.


Another misinformation from DaveC ? Bella barista agree with me that 1) the heater elements are "in-built" and cannot be replaced independently and 2) the e61 group is "solenoid actuated" and hence does not have the spring loaded pre-infusion.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

@Nikko is your sole aim of being on the forum to bait DaveC ?


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## Vollbart (Jan 27, 2019)

I appreciate you pointing these things out Nikko, as a bit of balance is always welcome, but I don't think either of those facts are being contested as they are noted in Dave's review.

What the boilers lifespan will be and whether it'll be possible to replace them a few years down the line is certainly a relevant concern but probably only something time can really tell?

It's undeniable that costs have been cut with the Minima, Dave enumerates some of the ways this has been done, including the solenoid valve. I think he stipulates that the ramp up of the vibration pump leads to a good enough result without a preinfusion chamber. Do you think this unlikely? It seems to be backed up by the experiences on the beta thread.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

If the heating elements are welded into boilers, it will be really strange.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

L&R said:


> If the heating elements are welded into boilers, it will be really strange.


Er.... what does this mean? It's a fact the heating elements are an integral part of the boiler on the Minima. What does "strange" mean here?


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

another, cheaper dual boiler available is the Profitec 300

but if you can stretch for the Bianca, it would be great IMHO


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Er.... what does this mean? It's a fact the heating elements are an integral part of the boiler on the Minima. What does "strange" mean here?


Probably, I am guessing that they then would not be easily replaceable if welded in.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

You have to replace the boilers rather than the heating elements. Assuming the worst case scenario of not being able to buy the boilers because they are no longer manufactured and ACS have discontinued the Minima and not found another manufacturer for replacement parts, presumably users would be left to source another boiler of similar or smaller dimensions and do a bit of plumbing.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rob1 said:


> You have to replace the boilers rather than the heating elements. Assuming the worst case scenario of not being able to buy the boilers because they are no longer manufactured and ACS have discontinued the Minima and not found another manufacturer for replacement parts, presumably users would be left to source another boiler of similar or smaller dimensions and do a bit of plumbing.


Similar off the shelf boilers will be available, often with threaded holes, but it's quite simple to drill small diameter holes for pipework and thread them. Or....have a hole cut and threaded in the bottom and put a heating element in....Of course your talking ACS going out of business and this could apply to any manufacturer. Usually what happens is manufacturers change specs anyway over the years and it becomes very hard to source parts for lots of makes of machine. I have stressed to ACS to not do this and ensure compatibility is continuous through production wherever possible.

The other assumption being made is that the boilers will be short lived, like on (much more cheaply made internally) machines with embedded heating elements. These are not cheaply made boilers and are surgical steel, 2mm thick and use Incolloy 800 heating elements. Using good water, I suspect the boilers/heating elements will last the life of the machine. I didn't like embedded heating elements in the La Spaziale Vivaldi mini particularly, because the boiler was cheap and bean can thin and the replacement cost was quite/very high. For the Minima, I would expect the boiler replacement cost to not be much more than actually replacing a heating element. It would also be no more work as usually for heating element replacement (for those who have done it) boilers are best removed (except a Vesuvius which uses O ring seals). My review explains the advantages of embedded heating elements in the Minima, the Solenoid group and many other features. I think the best thing is to ask owners of Beta machines which are inferior to the production machine, but even then they still love their machines.

I was using the production machine this morning for an espresso after 3 days of temperature testing and re-validation, other thermal and leak checks, plus pressure adjustment. Does it still make great espresso...you bet, is it still nice to use...yes. Is it quieter than the Beta...yes thank god. I will be putting up the pressure adjustment Video in a while if people are interested. A dual boiler of this internal quality and performance for the money is where i would like to see more manufacturers try and be....perhaps the Minima will be a kick up the pants for them.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)




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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Is there a list of all the changes made to the Minima since the beta machines somewhere @DavecUK?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

mctrials23 said:


> Is there a list of all the changes made to the Minima since the beta machines somewhere @DavecUK?


Yes, in my head at the moment....will try and incorporate as many as I can remember in the review....although it's not really relevant to know what changed really, just what is now.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Vollbart said:


> I appreciate you pointing these things out Nikko, as a bit of balance is always welcome, but I don't think either of those facts are being contested as they are noted in Dave's review.
> 
> What the boilers lifespan will be and whether it'll be possible to replace them a few years down the line is certainly a relevant concern but probably only something time can really tell?
> 
> It's undeniable that costs have been cut with the Minima, Dave enumerates some of the ways this has been done, including the solenoid valve. I think he stipulates that the ramp up of the vibration pump leads to a good enough result without a preinfusion chamber. Do you think this unlikely? It seems to be backed up by the experiences on the beta thread.


On my standard e61 with a rotary pump the ramp up against a blind filter takes a little over 5 seconds. In the latest pressure adjustment video the Minima ramps up in just over 3 seconds again against a blind filter so I'd say the e61 pre-infusion makes a substantial difference. There is no reason why the Minima ramp up time should be any different to other machine with a vibratory pump and no pre-infusion facility.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

So @Obidi which machine did you decide on in the end, did you go with your heart or your wallet.

You were undecided between Minima or Bianca and as I get a huge commission if you buy either I'd love to know so I can book my round the world cruise.

P.S. Unless otherwise stated, commission value is £0


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

No way to buy this after information about welded elements...how much they saved from 2 threads and 2 standard heating elements, actually I don't want to know.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

L&R said:


> No way to buy this after information about welded elements...how much they saved from 2 threads and 2 standard heating elements, actually I don't want to know.


I didn't know you were considering one?

Then I had better not tell you that they didn't save anything really....vs boilers with a screw in copper element


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## Obidi (Feb 23, 2019)

Hi Dave, I'm seriously considering the Bianca, I see that they have them at 'Maxicoffee' here in France, total price around £1600



DavecUK said:


> So @Obidi which machine did you decide on in the end, did you go with your heart or your wallet.
> 
> You were undecided between Minima or Bianca and as I get a huge commission if you buy either I'd love to know so I can book my round the world cruise.
> 
> P.S. Unless otherwise stated, commission value is £0


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Bianca and Maxicoffee.fr:good:


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Obidi said:


> Hi Dave, I'm seriously considering the Bianca, I see that they have them at 'Maxicoffee' here in France, total price around £1600


It's a good machine I think you will like it.


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## Obidi (Feb 23, 2019)

Hi @L&R Can you recommend 'maxicoffee'? They seem like a good company to deal with.



L&R said:


> Bianca and Maxicoffee.fr:good:


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Obidi said:


> Hi @L&R Can you recommend 'maxicoffee'? They seem like a good company to deal with.


I think he already did give a thumbs up. So I am guessing he has used them a few times before and found them good to deal with.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Maxicoffee is very reliable supplier, probably the best in France(they ship at low cost in EU too). Bianca is a really nice and capable machine, although my opinion is based on videos and reviews.

BR


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## AndyZap (Dec 29, 2016)

I am thinking about Minima as well, mainly because of the small size (important) and simple design. How often it needs descaling / cleaning? And how long it take on average? I make 5-6 cups a week (and on weekends mostly), so worried that the extra time I need to spend maintaining a bigger machine is hard to justify (leave money aside).

Also I like 2 bar and 6 bar shots (I have a dimmer attached to Gaggia pump). Can I attach a dimmer to the Minima pump to get a low-pressure shot, or it has an easy accessible handle to set the shot pressure? Sorry for a stupid question, spent too much time on Gaggia mods


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

AndyZap said:


> I am thinking about Minima as well, mainly because of the small size (important) and simple design. How often it needs descaling / cleaning? And how long it take on average? I make 5-6 cups a week (and on weekends mostly), so worried that the extra time I need to spend maintaining a bigger machine is hard to justify (leave money aside).
> 
> Also I like 2 bar and 6 bar shots (I have a dimmer attached to Gaggia pump). Can I attach a dimmer to the Minima pump to get a low-pressure shot, or it has an easy accessible handle to set the shot pressure? Sorry for a stupid question, spent too much time on Gaggia mods


How often it needs descaling and cleaning depends on the water you put into it and how often you use it. If you remineralise RO or distilled water with bicarbonates then you won't need to descale. If you use bottled water like volvic I don't think you'll ever need to descale either. Generally if you run it off filtered tap water you'll need to descale every six months, maybe sooner depending on how hard your water is. Running it from tap water isn't the best thing for the taste or health of the machine though...

Regarding cleaning you'll want to do that once a week most likely (as in backflushing with detergent, dropping shower screen to scrub). There's really no reason to avoid it with a solenoid operated group, and it uses a very small amount of water compared to a traditional E61.

I'm not sure what you mean about extra time maintaining a bigger machine...how does the size of the casing affect how much time you spend maintaining and cleaning the group? Unless you're referring to the minuscule amount of time you'll save not wiping down the extra few inches of casing??

How long what takes? Cleaning or making coffee? The service boiler takes about 10 minutes to heat up, maybe a little less. I let the brew boiler heat up for at least 45 minutes, usually more. Backflushing and cleaning takes about 10-20 minutes at the most I'd say. I haven't descaled and probably never will but the length of time will be determined by your technique and amount of scale you need to dissolve (for more you'll need to leave descaler in the boiler for longer). If I were to descale mine I'd do it by removing a fixture on top of the brew boiler and syphon cleaner in and out, rinsing with water a few times. I did that with the expobar and had to remove the casing and water carrier just to access the top of the boiler and it took me about an hour in total. With the minima it would be a lot quicker and easier as you access the top of the boilers (and OPV) just by taking off the cup warmer which is secured by a few hex screws.

I'm toying with the idea of modding the minima for flow profiling by wiring in PWM control to the pump. It might be a bit difficult to access because of how compact everything is but I can't see why it wouldn't work.

For reference I bought a cheap distiller from ebay for £50, got a demijohn and some platinum silicone tubing to fit on the end of the condensing coil for another £10 or so and I've produced almost 200 litres without any sign that the distiller is losing efficiency. At about 22p per litre that's £44. So far that's £104 for 200 litres of water with a mineral spec of my choosing. Volvic would work out at about £75 + travel costs with 133 bottles sent to be recycled. I need it to last another 200 litres to be around breaking even and have no reason to believe it won't get there. Thing is even if it break today and costs me an extra £30 vs bottled that's a small price to pay for total control over what's in the water and having it essentially on demand rather relying on stores to stock the big multi pack boxes of volvic.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

AndyZap said:


> I am thinking about Minima as well, mainly because of the small size (important) and simple design.
> 
> 1. How often it needs descaling / cleaning? And how long it take on average? I make 5-6 cups a week (and on weekends mostly), so worried that the extra time I need to spend maintaining a bigger machine is hard to justify (leave money aside).
> 
> ...


1. It depends on how hard your water is. I would always recommend not using hard water on an espresso machine. descaling takes a variable amount of time to work, depending on the scale and the descaling method used. The user guide i wrote covers how to descale both boilers on the Minima. The Service Boiler is very easy to descale, the brew boiler a little harder.

2. I don't know if the Video on the previous page of this thread answers your question or not? As for dimmer attached to the pump, I don't think they work particularly well but it uses a vibration pump not an ULKA, but you will be able to connect a dimmer. The pump does have an overheat protection device on it, but it should not preclude the use of a dimmer.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?49011-ACS-Minima-dual-boiler-machine-or-alternatives&p=667863#post667863

3. I'm not sure what you mean?


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## AndyZap (Dec 29, 2016)

@Rob1, @DavecUK - thank you both for the replies. Would you have a link to the Minima user manual?

I use Volvic and descale my machine every couple of months (takes about 30 min). Every week I remove the shower disk and the brass holder and clean them with a descaler (a couple of mins). It makes sense that the Minima stainless boilers require less frequent descaling (esp when using Volvic). Also good to know that the larger service boiler is easy to descale and the E61 group is not difficult to clean.

Have not looked at the videos yet, thanks for the link.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I am rewriting the manual as the current one is for the Beta. I am not sure whether it's available by link or only hard copy.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

You see signs of scale even though you're using volvic?


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## AndyZap (Dec 29, 2016)

No signs of scale. I've heard that the aluminium boilers need to be descaled frequently, to remove the alu oxide - this is the reason I decided to descale every 2 months


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Why would you remove the aluminium oxide? It's a protective layer isn't it? Just from a quick google search it forms when water or oxygen makes contact with aluminium forming a non-porous protective layer...then again I know nothing about the Gaggia aside from its reputation and know nothing about aluminium boiler aside from a little about corrosion problems with old lever machines that used them.


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## poolfan (May 9, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> I am rewriting the manual as the current one is for the Beta. I am not sure whether it's available by link or only hard copy.


manual available below from ACS website

http://www.elcor.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Manuale-Minima.pdf


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

That's a really nice manual


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## Obidi (Feb 23, 2019)

So, I'm awaiting my new machine, should be here tomorrow. @DavecUK, can you link me to your review please, I can't seem to find it. Oh forgot to say - Lelit Bianca - can't wait! Thanks for all your input guys, it's very much appreciated.


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## joe (Nov 13, 2014)

deleted..... reason.... stupidity.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Obidi said:


> So, I'm awaiting my new machine, should be here tomorrow. @DavecUK, can you link me to your review please


Seriously, you must have been very bad at those where is wally pictures!


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Obidi said:


> So, I'm awaiting my new machine, should be here tomorrow. @DavecUK, can you link me to your review please, I can't seem to find it. Oh forgot to say - Lelit Bianca - can't wait! Thanks for all your input guys, it's very much appreciated.


Which machine @Obidi


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## Obidi (Feb 23, 2019)

@Jony - the Lelit Bianca



Jony said:


> Which machine @Obidi


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## Obidi (Feb 23, 2019)

Hehe, yes, I'm too impatient! Just found the link to your blog ( hmm quoted by myself on the first post) Off to read the Lelit review, thanks Dave.



DavecUK said:


> Seriously, you must have been very bad at those where is wally pictures!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It's actually in my signature as well!


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## Obidi (Feb 23, 2019)

Yes, I see that now................











DavecUK said:


> It's actually in my signature as well!


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