# Sage Dual Boiler seems impossible to calibrate



## Shakuahi (Jun 14, 2021)

Hi fellow Coffee Lovers!

Recently I bought Sage Dual Boiler (BES920BSS) and BARATZA SETTE 270 coffee grinder and I have huge problems with making drinkable espresso.

I've tried many settings and coffee is constantly very sour.

I've used ratio 2:1, then 3:1, tried different grind level (5 higher), used few different coffees, results were different but none of them were even close to decent, coffee is always sour. I'm wondering if there is any basic settings level which might be some kind of starting point for a beginner?

Also, I have no idea whether this is grind issue (I used only 5 and below grind level) or maybe I used wrong express settings?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Shakuahi Welcome to the forum...I don't use a sage myself, but we have plenty of people that do and seem happy with them. I am sure they will have lots of hints and tips to help you overcome any problems.


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## Shakuahi (Jun 14, 2021)

I've tried the smallest settings on the grinder mainly. From 1 to 5 practically. Portafilter with strainer for double espresso. 18g of coffee into the strainer, about 36-45g of the finished brew. So the ratio is roughly 1: 2 to 1: 2.5. Brewing time from 30 to 42 seconds was coming out. Factory temperature and pre-infusion settings.
The taste is still sour, as if the coffee is underbrewed, but with a longer extraction time, the taste is bitter as if it was overbrewed, but the acidity persists.
Coffee is 60% Arabica and 40% Robusta. Roasted dark enough. So on its own it shouldn't be too acidic.


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## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

Where are you buying your coffee from? Do you know how fresh it is / when it was roasted?

Are you always buying your coffee with robusta?

Have you tried a 100% arabica coffee?


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## Shakuahi (Jun 14, 2021)

dutchy101 said:


> Where are you buying your coffee from? Do you know how fresh it is / when it was roasted?
> 
> I don't know when this specific coffee was roasted but I'm sure it's not very fresh. Usually I buy fresh coffeess from local coffee roaster but I wanted to save some money on wasted coffee during the calibration.
> 
> ...


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## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

As a first step I'd suggest getting some fresh coffee if not from your local roaster from one of the board suppliers. Generally once the coffee is rested for 7 days after roasting it should be good to go.

I've got this on the go at the moment and it's a great price for the quality:

https://www.coffeecompass.co.uk/collections/roasted-origin-coffee/products/mystery-coffee-mark-14-1kg


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

@Shakuahi Follow Hoon's Coffee on Youtube; ditto Lifestyle labs, They feature other machines from the Sage(Breville) range but the principles are the same. Also Sage offer brilliant (free) online training. Finally there are a couple of DB Facebook groups everyone is helpful and friendly and supportive. Good luck! You WILL get there!


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

Shakuahi said:


> Recently I bought Sage Dual Boiler (BES920BSS) and BARATZA SETTE 270 coffee grinder and I have huge problems with making drinkable espresso.


 I own the Dual Boiler and a Niche. Is this the first machine and grinder that you've owned?

When I started out making espresso with a Dedica and SGP, I found a lot of the time it would end up sour. I believe this was mostly to do with the temperature being too low. The Dual Boiler is a far easier machine to work with when it comes to temperature though.

When you turn the machine on and it comes up to temp, leave it for another 5 minutes or so. This will allow the portafilter to warm up. After that, heat your cup with a little water run through the portafilter for about 10 seconds. Load your coffee into the portafilter and do not flush water through the grouphead before inserting the portafilter; just stick it in and pull your shot.

The only other thing I can say is that new grinders need to be broken in. When I first got the Niche I found it to produce harsher flavours than it does now. Some people recommend breaking in the grinder by running up to 10kg through before you start using it. Personally I just used mine from the get go. Also I think the Baratza Sette has some reliability issues, so you'll probably be lessening the life of the grinder.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Shakuahi said:


> I've tried the smallest settings on the grinder mainly. From 1 to 5 practically. Portafilter with strainer for double espresso. 18g of coffee into the strainer, about 36-45g of the finished brew. So the ratio is roughly 1: 2 to 1: 2.5. Brewing time from 30 to 42 seconds was coming out. Factory temperature and pre-infusion settings.
> The taste is still sour, as if the coffee is underbrewed, but with a longer extraction time, the taste is bitter as if it was overbrewed, but the acidity persists.
> Coffee is 60% Arabica and 40% Robusta. Roasted dark enough. So on its own it shouldn't be too acidic.


 What happens when you go coarser than 5? 5 sounds very fine.

If acidity is the primary problem, then it sounds like under-extraction, the bitterness may be because you are too fine & under-extracting?


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## Shakuahi (Jun 14, 2021)

So I've used 100% arabica brasil espresso blend roasted in march 2021 (Best I could get fast).

First attempt: 17g of coffee, grind level 3, 41s, 34g of fluid - best attempt but still acid.

17g, grind level 4, 35s, 36 g of fluid - more acid.

17g, grind level 3, 28s to 43,4 g, acid.

18g, grind level 3, 31 s, 47g of fluid, acid.

When I go below level 3 of grind there is basically mud in my portafilter. Above 5 fluid went really fast with low pressure (around 4 bar).

I have a feeling that my settings are correct but the taste is awful. Is is really possible that this is caused by poor coffee? It is rather expensive coffee but roasted few months ago.


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## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

Think you're going to struggle with 3 month old coffee. Even if it has been stored well it's likely to be stale at 3 months.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Shakuahi said:


> I have a feeling that my settings are correct but the taste is awful. Is is really possible that this is caused by poor coffee? It is rather expensive coffee but roasted few months ago.


 3+ months old is dead coffee really, even if stored optimally, certainly for purposes of trying to pin down your issues. Start again with coffee rested for the appropriate time (ask the roaster, likely between 5 days and two weeks), then you rule out the coffee variable. I'd also recommend a 'starter coffee' - something cheaper, a blend with notes you can distinguish. It's hard to tell bitter, sour etc from acidic notes at the start I found. Get a darker chocolate/nuts type coffee so you know what you're looking out for, I found that helped me.


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## Shakuahi (Jun 14, 2021)

CocoLoco said:


> 3+ months old is dead coffee really, even if stored optimally, certainly for purposes of trying to pin down your issues. Start again with coffee rested for the appropriate time (ask the roaster, likely between 5 days and two weeks), then you rule out the coffee variable. I'd also recommend a 'starter coffee' - something cheaper, a blend with notes you can distinguish. It's hard to tell bitter, sour etc from acidic notes at the start I found. Get a darker chocolate/nuts type coffee so you know what you're looking out for, I found that helped me.


 But how this is possible, that I'm using the same coffee in automatic Jura automatic espresso machine and coffee is tasty?


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Shakuahi said:


> But how this is possible, that I'm using the same coffee in automatic Jura automatic espresso machine and coffee is tasty?


 I'm not sure how the Jura works or what it does, but I don't see anyone drinking 3+ months old beans so I'd take that out of the equation. Next, go through the Sage DB checklist. Read the Sage forum, make sure you're doing everything right - heat up time, dummy shots, preinfusion time etc. Next, choke the machine (grind too fine), then work back from there. Play with the amount, some coffees like 18g, some 18.5g, some 19g. Tamp should be consistent. I assume your puck prep is right?

The Sette 270 doesn't have a great reputation but I think that's because of the reliability rather than performance. Regardless I'd look it up on YouTube for hints.

EDIT: Are you saying below setting 3 chokes the machine and setting 5 is too fast? If so sounds like the grinder can't handle the coffee. That's giving you a very small window.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The DB is a dual boiler - sort of end of. There are many of them around with all sort of names that have the same pump pressure, temperature and etc. The DB is pretty good in that respect. Remarkable value really.

People use the DB in different ways. I for instance use it as soon as it's ready. Flush briefly - this is to ensure the hydraulics are full and discharge any overheated brew water in the preheater the machine uses. That may cause the flush to spurt very briefly. End the flush as soon as the flow is even. 2 to 4secs usually achieves that.

If you want to preheat the portafilter simply fit it and wait until you can only touch is very briefly. It doesn't take long. I don't as I have found it makes zero difference to taste. Best way to find out if it's needed.Try it, some might detect a change. I drink americano so lots of hot water is added and the shot temp doesn't alter that much at all. Milk based may work out the same. An straight espresso shot drinker probably will want to preheat it. On the other hand with these and americano taste is more apparent when cooled. I use borosilicate mugs, not dual wall. They don't take up much heat especially if thin wall. I use some thick ones now. The drink cools to a sensible level in a few mins.

Sounds like you have either a bean or a grinder problem to me. Grinders can take several kg to run in. A couple of kg of anything can help. Start coarse and do the last 500g or so at espresso levels. Time depends on the grinder - don't let it overheat. The manual may mention on to off times but more can be ground at coarser setting in one go.

Beans really need a link to see what you have bought. Some especially none fresh roasted can be impossible to tune. They tend to turn to dust and even more so as the grind is set finer. By the time you get to soggy pucks the machine is probably near choking and ratio out should be very low in 30secs. If ratio doesn't respond to setting it probably is the beans providing your grinds are level before you tamp and you use a reasonable amount of force >10kg. With some experience you will get an idea how much the grinder needs to be adjusted to correct a ratio. Most grinder need very small adjustments to tune exactly but I am not familiar with yours. It sounds like steps plus a micro adjustment. If you are using it with a hopper full of beans you will need to waste grinds each time you change the setting. How much depends on the grinder. It can do if you are weighing beans in as well.

 We all struggle when we start. Some of that can be not being careful enough about what is done to the grinds.


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## 7877 (Aug 14, 2014)

Shakuahi said:


> So I've used 100% arabica brasil espresso blend roasted in march 2021 (Best I could get fast).
> 
> First attempt: 17g of coffee, grind level 3, 41s, 34g of fluid - best attempt but still acid.
> 
> ...


 This doesn't sound too far off to me although I appreciate you aren't getting the desired taste. I've had a Sage DB for many years but not familiar with your grinder.

I always went with 19g in a double basket (I used a VST but the sage one is fine)

i'd try 19g, grind at 4 or even try 5 again and see where that gets you but consider the brew temp also.

When changing beans I would only change grind usually, but didn't realise for a long time the benefit of changing the brew temp by a degree here and there. A little hotter for a darker roast say 95 deg or even 96, but most of the time I was at 94. Always set pre-infusion for 10 seconds, anything around 35s pour or a little longer for 36-38g out seemed to get me good results.

whilst I think the sage was a decent machine, since replacing it interestingly I find I don't grind as fine for as long and don't find myself either trying to compensate with over tamping&#8230;. Getting into better habits now, but didn't realise I had bad ones at the time!

HTH


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## 7877 (Aug 14, 2014)

PS&#8230;. Whilst I did sometimes use the sage as soon as it had warmed up, generally would leave it 20-30 mins before first use of the day. I'd usually set the switch on timer in the morning to be the same as my wake up alarm clock, so by the time I'd "come round", had a shower etc. It was ready to go 🙂


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## CoffeeTim (Nov 23, 2020)

Try to use pressurized basket to make espresso. Non pressurized basket is very sensitive to beans freshness, grind settings and other parameters.

I personally won't use beans older than 2months for non pressurized basket to make espresso.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I just turn mine on and use it when it says ready. I've found other methods don't offer any advantage. Set early via the built in clock - too early and it will switch itself off.

How to choose in this area - as always taste. If leaving it for 1/2hr improves it do it  funny feeling it will turn itself off.

Preheating the portafilter adds to the usual ~3min heat up time. Maybe another 5 if it's left in. I don't as found no taste difference unlike steps needed to preheat the internals of a BE. I have mostly used a bottomless though.

The OP's problem. Beans or grinder but it might also be the tuning used. I have actually used beans that needed a ratio of 5 to achieve a balanced taste. Not fresh roasted from my usual suppliers though.

I'm using a bean at the moment that leaves a film of water on the used puck. Some do. In my case enhanced as I have started using lower fill levels. No more pucks sticking to the shower screen.  So far anyway. The machine is happy with the grinds a good 10mm+ below the rim of the basket - sadly my tamper isn't.

What happens when the dose is reduced - invariably there is a need to grind finer. What does that do in this case. I doubt if many bother finding out.


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