# New Barista Express gushing



## YorkshireLion (Jun 11, 2019)

Hi all,

This is my first post although I have seen plenty of posts when searching on Google. I bought a Barista Express after originally buying a Bambino Plus and realising that it didn't do what I wanted. It would make any shot look good with the Dual Walls but I could not get a decent taste out of it. So I upgraded to the Express and found myself in the same boat again.

I have only just got the machine yesterday, I am dosing my shots on a scale to 18g and tamping to what I feel a consistent level. Although I think I am getting channeling on my shots.

I bought some Rave signature from Amazon and it has a roast date of 3/4/19, I think that they flush with nitrogen, however my grinder on the Express is set to 1 or 2 to get enough pressure out of the machine to be in the espresso range. The shots however taste astringent and they start slow and then gush.

Here is the before and after, also try and link to my Twitter where you can see the shot.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1138460652132020225


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

What's your grinder and what's your prep routine?


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## YorkshireLion (Jun 11, 2019)

igm45 said:


> What's your grinder and what's your prep routine?


 I'm using the built in grinder on the express apologies. Needs to be at 1-2 to generate the pressure for the shot, from watching loads of YouTube videos I feel like I'm doing a better job of preparing the shot than most but the end product is bad.

I tare the portafilter on the scale and then dose the 18g, level off the dose with a knock and using my finger, then I tamp down to the correct level and check with the razor levelling tool, I've been spot on recently, just right on the dose. Then I flush the group put the portafilter in and pull the shot. It starts off ok then seems to go mad and it is pulling too fast.

From all the videos I have watched of people pulling shots with this machine, it always seems to come back to bean freshness, most people are grinding at 8-12, I realise that all the machines will have different outputs to each other but I'm at between 1-2.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Your coffee is two months old , which although not completely stale , unsueable , is not ideal.

But to help , Ignore the pressure gauge for now , How much coffee it is making, in grams over what time .


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## YorkshireLion (Jun 11, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> Your coffee is two months old , which although not stake , is not ideal.
> 
> Ignore the pressure , How much coffee it is making in grams over what time .


 I haven't weighed the coffee yet as I was trying to slow down the extraction, when I put two shot glasses underneath it looked like around 60ml, I know that you can adjust the burr to make it grind finer but I don't feel like I should have to do that, I have the feeling that I just haven't used fresh enough coffee yet.

On the video it was around 26 seconds on the extraction


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Isn't there an internal adjustment in the machine that lets you take the grinder range finer?

You didn't have any scales under the cup in your video?

You seem to be letting the machine kill the shot, rather than brew to a consistent ratio (say 18.0g in to 54g out)?

"8-12" & "1-2" are numbers painted on the machine, they're not si units and don't tell us the burr gap/grind size, nor indicate any similarity with other machines apparently set the same, could be 8-12 dancing elephants for all it is worth. 

Go by weight in vs weight out, then taste & adjust grind. Make a note of shot time, but kill the shot manually to achieve desired weight (maybe 8g or so early?)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

YorkshireLion said:


> On the video it was around 26 seconds on the extraction


 That doesn't mean a whole lot without a weight of drink made.


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## YorkshireLion (Jun 11, 2019)

MWJB said:


> Isn't there an internal adjustment in the machine that lets you take the grinder range finer?
> 
> You didn't have any scales under the cup in your video?
> 
> ...


 That's correct, the reason I haven't been weighing yet is because the shot looked so bad, or looked wrong to me anyway so I was just trying to slow it down, however I have nowhere else to go to slow it down without adjusting the burr. I hear what you are saying about the grind setting, however I think any lower and it would be out of the pressure gauge zone.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

YorkshireLion said:


> That's correct, the reason I haven't been weighing yet is because the shot looked so bad, or looked wrong to me anyway so I was just trying to slow it down, however I have nowhere else to go to slow it down without adjusting the burr. I hear what you are saying about the grind setting, however I think any lower and it would be out of the pressure gauge zone.


 Weigh the shot

How long does it take to make 36g of Espresso


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## YorkshireLion (Jun 11, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> Weigh the shot
> 
> How long does it take to make 36g of Espresso


 20 seconds for 32g, then dripped up to 35.6g


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok

Adjusst your grinder as instructed, change the coffee if not better.

Don't buy from Amazon again , you can't guarantee the freshnese.


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## adam85 (Feb 16, 2018)

As many have said, and what the instruction manual probably confirms (it does at least for my Sage DTP); if the weight in has more than doubled at 30 seconds, you'll likely want to grind the beans finer.

The other 'issue' might be the tamp pressure being too low -- but usually I read tamping is the least important.

Edit: Also the weight, before and after.


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## YorkshireLion (Jun 11, 2019)

adam85 said:


> As many have said, and what the instruction manual probably confirms (it does at least for my Sage DTP); if the weight in has more than doubled at 30 seconds, you'll likely want to grind the beans finer.
> 
> The other 'issue' might be the tamp pressure being too low -- but usually I read tamping is the least important.


 I think that I am just going to try and buy some fresh beans, rather than messing with the grinder settings. Hopefully then I will be able to pull a decent shot.


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

YorkshireLion said:


> I'm using the built in grinder on the express apologies. Needs to be at 1-2 to generate the pressure for the shot, from watching loads of YouTube videos I feel like I'm doing a better job of preparing the shot than most but the end product is bad.
> 
> I tare the portafilter on the scale and then dose the 18g, level off the dose with a knock and using my finger, then I tamp down to the correct level and check with the razor levelling tool, I've been spot on recently, just right on the dose. Then I flush the group put the portafilter in and pull the shot. It starts off ok then seems to go mad and it is pulling too fast.
> 
> From all the videos I have watched of people pulling shots with this machine, it always seems to come back to bean freshness, most people are grinding at 8-12, I realise that all the machines will have different outputs to each other but I'm at between 1-2.


Even if your coffee is a bit stale you should be able to get a decent shot out of it, albeit muted in flavour it can still taste balanced. Don't be afraid to change the grind setting, it's something everyone has to do with their grinders when dialling in a new bean and is a part of the process of making espresso. Try setting the grinder finer and then loading your 18g dose into your portafilter, see if that helps.

Edit: also ensure your tamping with enough pressure, just until you feel the coffee compact into a solid puck.


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## Planter (Apr 12, 2017)

When you change beans it's almost inevitable that you will have to adjust the grind setting. So you may aswell practise. Even with the beans you currently have.

But I would strongly recommend fresher beans.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

It looks like from the video the BE is doing some pre-infusion then it happens quite quickly after that.

Definitely the fresher beans will be better, but try finer and longer, don't get to fixated on a set time (just record it)- just concentrate on the weights and your taste buds!

i've had some beans taste great at 45s. but that's using a slightly bigger basket 20g pulling 50g. :good:

edit: if you are not going to use the beans to drink, then try experiment with what happens if you go really long like 18g in 54 g out (3:1) and what happens as you go finer and finer on the grinder.


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## Tonino (Mar 26, 2018)

Problems here are the beans and than the grind settings. On the picture I can see the grinds are too coarse for espresso, they look fine to me for pressurised basket. Just try with pressurised basket and see how it taste for reference. Also This particulate beans are not the best to start with , they are actually the worst I ever tried. Buy another beans, get a blend for espresso and adjust the grinder finer until you clog the machine than you can go up the settings until you get the results you are looking for. Don't worry to adjust too fine or too coarse. I can recommend you to buy 1kg of Lavazza Rossa or Super crema beans and keep experimenting, they are cheap at least and will produce great crema, same as on the tv.

Regards


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## YorkshireLion (Jun 11, 2019)

Thanks for the input guys, I took the grinder out and changed the setting, it defaults to number 6 and I changed it to 4, it's quite fiddly as even though I ran what I thought were all the beans out some remained in making it a pain to get in and out. I ended up with even more of a gusher even though I set it finer, so I took it back off and went to one. Then with the finest setting on the grinder it choked the machine, I worked up from there to about 6-7 and that is a 28 second pull still on the 2 cup program so it was coming in at around 58ml each time.

I don't drink the espresso straight I pretty much always drink Americanos, I added water using the hot water dispenser, it tasted ok at best, I want to say that it wasn't astringent but had what I think was a sourness. The. Problem I have is that I'm pretty tired of messing around now, I have also spent a lot of money with no results.

I started off off with the Bambino which was a hopeless effort due to the fact that is uses dual wall baskets, so no matter how bad the shot is it looks fine, so it might taste good or bad but it will look the part. Let me give you the run down of equipment.

Porlex hand grinder - Sage Bambino

Smart grinder pro - Sage Bambino

Sage Barista Express

I have been at this now for 2-3 weeks and I'm yet to taste anything remotely good, I have learned a great deal doing this but still cannot make a decent drink. I may have to look for an alternative that will make a decent repeatable coffee at the push of a button.

Also I forgot to mention that to get the 28 second flow the machine went out of the ideal range, it was higher on the gauge.


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## YorkshireLion (Jun 11, 2019)

Tonino said:


> Problems here are the beans and than the grind settings. On the picture I can see the grinds are too coarse for espresso, they look fine to me for pressurised basket. Just try with pressurised basket and see how it taste for reference. Also This particulate beans are not the best to start with , they are actually the worst I ever tried. Buy another beans, get a blend for espresso and adjust the grinder finer until you clog the machine than you can go up the settings until you get the results you are looking for. Don't worry to adjust too fine or too coarse. I can recommend you to buy 1kg of Lavazza Rossa or Super crema beans and keep experimenting, they are cheap at least and will produce great crema, same as on the tv.
> 
> Regards


 The LaVazza Rossa were the first beans that I tried in the machine but they did the same thing as these, I went through the full pack getting nothing. I would most likely get a better result now the grinder is finer.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

YorkshireLion said:


> I don't drink the espresso straight I pretty much always drink Americanos, I added water using the hot water dispenser, it tasted ok at best, I want to say that it wasn't astringent but had what I think was a sourness. The. Problem I have is that I'm pretty tired of messing around now, I have also spent a lot of money with no results.
> 
> I have been at this now for 2-3 weeks and I'm yet to taste anything remotely good, I have learned a great deal doing this but still cannot make a decent drink. I may have to look for an alternative that will make a decent repeatable coffee at the push of a button.


 OK, stop right there.

If you always make Americanos, why are you trying to make a tricky, short espresso, then add water to it? Why not make a drink you can make in one go (less steps) and enjoy without adding water, or just add a splash (from a hot kettle)?

I don't know how the program buttons know how to dispense what you want, so go manual & aim for 18g in and 80g out, around 35s (but not critical if it drifts a bit). If the shot is too weak, grind a little finer, if it is silty/flat/dirty tasting go a tad coarser. Pours will look awful, so don't look, just watch the scales


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Try manual brewing, Press and hold the 2 hot button until drips appear, release and press again when you get 36g out. (think that's how you do manual). Can also ty grinding finer and doing longer pre-infusions, which you can on these.

The auto settings can be programmed and I do them every time I put a new bean in the hopper. I'd ignore the pressure gauge as my extractions were always at the top end of the gauge anyway. Always go by taste..


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## YorkshireLion (Jun 11, 2019)

Rhys said:


> Try manual brewing, Press and hold the 2 hot button until drips appear, release and press again when you get 36g out. (think that's how you do manual). Can also ty grinding finer and doing longer pre-infusions, which you can on these.
> 
> The auto settings can be programmed and I do them every time I put a new bean in the hopper. I'd ignore the pressure gauge as my extractions were always at the top end of the gauge anyway. Always go by taste..


 I will have a look into that tomorrow, although I'm already half way through a £20 1kg bag of Rave with nothing to show for it.


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## YorkshireLion (Jun 11, 2019)

Ok so, this morning I ran through about 4-5 shots choking the machine and then I now have a programmed 30 second pour of 36ml from an 18g dose. Pressure gauge is off the scale and it tricked out now rather than gush, thin stream of liquid for the full duration. Will report back how it tastes.


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## Les996 (Jan 8, 2019)

Apologies if this has already been covered...

Did you buy the BE from new?

From my experience with the BE I was always working around 6-8 (with default set at 6) on grind although that can obviously vary from one to another.

I did use a push tamper set to same as level tool which gave me consistency on each shot.

When I started I tried some older beans and had a complete mess, it really does need fresh beans.

Before I sold it on I was on Rave Fudge:

Grinder 7 in 18.5g from what I can remember it would take to the far end of the gauge (about 1 o'clock) This gave a few second pre-infusion before ramping up. Gave me 57g out at 27 seconds. The BE does work on higher ratios, I found if I wanted less then I split the dose for a tasty latte.

Hope this helps - I would definitely get a fresh bean (from the roaster themselves) and start from about 8 days old, reset grinder to default and try around 7...work from there!


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## Planter (Apr 12, 2017)

YorkshireLion said:


> Ok so, this morning I ran through about 4-5 shots choking the machine and then I now have a programmed 30 second pour of 36ml from an 18g dose. Pressure gauge is off the scale and it tricked out now rather than gush, thin stream of liquid for the full duration. Will report back how it tastes.


You keep referring to ml (millilitres) out. Weigh your output. Don't rely on ml.

18gm in and aim for 36gm out. Weighed.


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## YorkshireLion (Jun 11, 2019)

Ok so I'm nearly out of beans now, I've made two this morning and they have both got the flavours of being sieved through a tramps boot, after I adjusted it this morning and got the right does I was looking for, I made another, it came gushing out. Baring in mind that I have been running the grinder between changes, so I went two steps lighter on the grind and it slowed to 36g of coffee in 30 seconds, still tasted bad, mouth drying type.

Im pretty much throwing the towel in now and walking away, I haven't got time or the money now to waste on anymore beans, for me £430 is a lot of money to make bad coffee, which is most probably my fault but still. The machine was brand new.

I think I am going to look into buying something that can make me just a normal tasting Americano at the touch of a button that takes me out of the equation.

This is was the last one;

Last shot pulled.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1138735165092573189


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Hi! Just saw this and I had a lot of the same issues you're having. A lot of other members in here have already addressed a lot of the things I'd suggest (modifying the outer burr settings etc.) but for reference with the machine being so new, the grinder will need a few kg of coffee to break the burrs in.

Ive put together a reference guide for other people before. Please see link below, it explains my process and how I do it (I don't use the built in grinder though, and have now added a motta leveller to the workflow). Unfortunately the limiting factor of this machine is its grinder but there's not really much you can do about that unless you fork out for a new one. You can work with it though.



http://imgur.com/ZXkYrxt


Ive also found that measuring the coffee from first drip as opposed to pressing the button has helped my results, as you get about 7-10s pre infusion and then the shot starts pulling. Weigh the output to be 25s from first drip, and adjust from there. Making the overall shot to be in the 35s region from start to finish.


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## Tonino (Mar 26, 2018)

Hi,

Pre infusion seems ok than coffee comes out too fast , you can Try more adjustments and change beans again, don't give up. I always succeed with lavazza however last bag I had opened yesterday it's not as good as I am use to. There is one thing about the beans that if they are not good for some reason the espresso will never brew as on the tv no matter what adjustments are, may taste ok but won't make you happy watching it pouring down.


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

Cooffe said:


> Ive also found that measuring the coffee from first drip as opposed to pressing the button has helped my results, as you get about 7-10s pre infusion and then the shot starts pulling. Weigh the output to be 25s from first drip, and adjust from there. Making the overall shot to be in the 35s region from start to finish.


Always start the timer from the moment you push the button as this is the amount of time the coffee has been in contact with water ie extraction time. First drips may appear after different amounts of time depending on the bean and grind setting so can lead to big inconsistencies.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Rakesh said:


> Always start the timer from the moment you push the button as this is the amount of time the coffee has been in contact with water ie extraction time. First drips may appear after different amounts of time depending on the bean and grind setting so can lead to big inconsistencies.


 agree, timing differently just for the sake of it in machines like this is pointless.

Water hits coffee ,


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## Julien Rashti (Jan 9, 2020)

So I had the same issue and called Sage, i did it at the finest of the finest the machine could do & still only got longest 12secs output. I was hoping I could get the espresso to over extract and drip out - then work backwards. But no matter what beans or even the pressurised filter, still 15secs max. Sage told me after explaining to them the issue that definitely there's a fault on the machine.

So now my options are like yours, separate grinder and espresso machine&#8230;but I found out from Seattle coffee gear the sage smart grinder pro is exactly the grinder in their machines, built exactly the same way, they even did a side by side test.

Im still thinking about it, maybe I'll give the barista express another go and see what happens, it's known to be one of the best supposedly.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Julien Rashti said:


> So I had the same issue and called Sage, i did it at the finest of the finest the machine could do & still only got longest 12secs output. I was hoping I could get the espresso to over extract and drip out - then work backwards. But no matter what beans or even the pressurised filter, still 15secs max. Sage told me after explaining to them the issue that definitely there's a fault on the machine.
> 
> So now my options are like yours, separate grinder and espresso machine&#8230;but I found out from Seattle coffee gear the sage smart grinder pro is exactly the grinder in their machines, built exactly the same way, they even did a side by side test.
> 
> Im still thinking about it, maybe I'll give the barista express another go and see what happens, it's known to be one of the best supposedly.


 The barista express is by far not one of the best espresso machines but it is a very good starter machine.

Out of curiosity did you adjust the outer burr setting during your trials?


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## JJarvis (Dec 20, 2019)

Julien Rashti said:


> So I had the same issue and called Sage, i did it at the finest of the finest the machine could do & still only got longest 12secs output. I was hoping I could get the espresso to over extract and drip out - then work backwards. But no matter what beans or even the pressurised filter, still 15secs max. Sage told me after explaining to them the issue that definitely there's a fault on the machine.
> 
> So now my options are like yours, separate grinder and espresso machine&#8230;but I found out from Seattle coffee gear the sage smart grinder pro is exactly the grinder in their machines, built exactly the same way, they even did a side by side test.
> 
> Im still thinking about it, maybe I'll give the barista express another go and see what happens, it's known to be one of the best supposedly.


 I've been looking at info about the Barista Express after seeing that XS Items on eBay were selling a pre-owned model without some accessories for £190 on a sale which ends today. I decided against buying it, but in the process of deciding saw a lot of videos like the one you mentioned from Seattle Coffee Gear.

I think, though, that the video you're talking about which found no difference (if it's this one from 2013) compared the Barista Express to the original Smart Grinder, not the Smart Grinder Pro.

The newest video I found of theirs solely comparing the Smart Grinder Pro and Barista Express was this one from 2016, and it showed a difference. *However,* Gail said that the top burr of the Barista Express was not adjustable, which is apparently no longer true of post-2018 Barista Expresses - so that comparison may not be entirely useful, either.

Apologies if you're talking about a separate video. I own neither machine and am just going off of what I saw.


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## Mr Binks (Mar 21, 2019)

Julien Rashti said:


> Im still thinking about it, maybe I'll give the barista express another go and see what happens, it's known to be one of the best supposedly.


 Curious to know who told you it's one of the best?


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## Julien Rashti (Jan 9, 2020)

Cooffe said:


> The barista express is by far not one of the best espresso machines but it is a very good starter machine.
> 
> Out of curiosity did you adjust the outer burr setting during your trials?


 Yeah I adjusted both to number 1


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## Julien Rashti (Jan 9, 2020)

JJarvis said:


> I've been looking at info about the Barista Express after seeing that XS Items on eBay were selling a pre-owned model without some accessories for £190 on a sale which ends today. I decided against buying it, but in the process of deciding saw a lot of videos like the one you mentioned from Seattle Coffee Gear.
> 
> I think, though, that the video you're talking about which found no difference (if it's this one from 2013) compared the Barista Express to the original Smart Grinder, not the Smart Grinder Pro.
> 
> ...


 Ah yes it was the one from 2013 - I mean they updated both machines so I don't know how different the grinders would be. The latest barista express that I still have has 16 settings on the outer dial, then inside burr has I think 6 - 10 - but from the video I saw of the recent grinder pro, for espresso grind I'm not how many it had. But obviously you have room to improve the grinder if you buy the machines separately but to get a better grinder than sage is quite a bit more expensive I believe.


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## Julien Rashti (Jan 9, 2020)

Mr Binks said:


> Curious to know who told you it's one of the best?


 For a home espresso machine, most coffee websites I saw (and Seattle Coffee Gear) said the build quality is very good. Whatever website I go to - barista express is the 1st or 2nd machine I see, basically I don't think I've seen a bad review. Like @Cooffe said it's amongst the best starter machines you can buy if you're comparing against home brands like Delonghi etc. For the price - you get a very good machine, even if you're comparing against the whole Sage line.

Its always featuring on Seattle Coffee Gear and a few other coffee channels I watch like Hoon Coffee


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## Mr Binks (Mar 21, 2019)

Julien Rashti said:


> For a home espresso machine, most coffee websites I saw (and Seattle Coffee Gear) said the build quality is very good. Whatever website I go to - barista express is the 1st or 2nd machine I see, basically I don't think I've seen a bad review. Like @Cooffe said it's amongst the best starter machines you can buy if you're comparing against home brands like Delonghi etc. For the price - you get a very good machine, even if you're comparing against the whole Sage line.
> 
> Its always featuring on Seattle Coffee Gear and a few other coffee channels I watch like Hoon Coffee


 I see, I assumed you were saying that it is know to be one of the best period, it most certainly isn't, if it was we'd all have one.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Les is about right on where you should be grinding but numbers will vary. Check and adjust the burr setting this way

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/49058-how-to-check-any-sage-grinder/?do=embed

Once done you will know you should never need to use the min setting. Useful as you have an indication that the beans may be a problem. They should come out of the factory set like this but it's looking like some don't.

I'd be inclined to put channelling down to 2 factors when a beginner is using these machines. Too high a dose of grinds or tamping problems. Could even be both. Dose is easy on Sage, check with or use the razor tool. Tamping is more tricky. It needs to be level. If not it's still possible to level with the tamper but correcting a slope like this way will change flows - better option than having it out of square though. The other is pressure. Generally thought to be more than 10kg. I'd suggest that you strain a little as it's more easy to keep that consistent and likely to be at least 10kg.

I'm not going to post again on tuning with these or a better way of using them manually. Did it too recently

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/49475-timing-the-shot/?do=embed

Feel free however for manual use to press the button for 10secs to keep the infusion time correct and etc

If the machine has a gauge - disregard Sage's comments on where the needle should go. People are likely to find they need it to go higher. Maybe even lower with some beans. The aim is taste and nothing else really.

Just thought of another problem that can happen with Sage grinders. Burrs set too close. That's how my SGP arrived. Fortunately I checked before using it otherwise the motor may have burnt out or the burrs wrecked if I ever ground at the lower settings.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

There is also the obvious solution to a grinder that isn't grinding fine enough on a new machine - contact Sage and report the fault. An engineer will come along and adjust the burrs. When one arrived here he seemed to be used to doing this as his initial reaction was to adjust the burrs but that wouldn't have fixed my problem so he fitted a new grinder.

Bad beans ? He will have his own with him. He left a bag, no to my taste so threw them. The way they brew though taste may have been somewhat different.

John

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## Julien Rashti (Jan 9, 2020)

ajohn said:


> There is also the obvious solution to a grinder that isn't grinding fine enough on a new machine - contact Sage and report the fault. An engineer will come along and adjust the burrs. When one arrived here he seemed to be used to doing this as his initial reaction was to adjust the burrs but that wouldn't have fixed my problem so he fitted a new grinder.
> 
> Bad beans ? He will have his own with him. He left a bag, no to my taste so threw them. The way they brew though taste may have been somewhat different.
> 
> ...


 Is this the White Glove Service? Sage unfortunately didn't offer me an engineer, only for their more expensive machines.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Julien Rashti said:


> Is this the White Glove Service? Sage unfortunately didn't offer me an engineer, only for their more expensive machines.


 Yes. I think it's available on a DB and most mentioned on an Oracle. To be honest if they did what one person suggested they do I wouldn't brew like that anyway. Not my style of bean as well in this case and also not fresh roasted.

John

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