# Steam Tips and whirlpools , steam power..



## hotmetal

There's nothing worse than "all the gear and no idea"; but I'm sat here with my R58 and still can't get milk like Kane's pic! It was almost easier on the classic cos you had more time until it reached temp (until the steam ran out of course). Now I have no excuse. Off to have another 'practice' ☺☕


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## KkAaNnEe

hotmetal said:


> There's nothing worse than "all the gear and no idea"; but I'm sat here with my R58 and still can't get milk like Kane's pic! It was almost easier on the classic cos you had more time until it reached temp (until the steam ran out of course). Now I have no excuse. Off to have another 'practice' ☺☕


You're right hotmetal, it is easier on the Classic but a bugger when making multiple drinks! The R58 is a beast, but the technique should be same, although maybe watch the vid in fast forward


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## hotmetal

KkAaNnEe said:


> maybe watch the vid in fast forward


Lol! Very true! My milk does look like that but seldom pours as well. Seems to separate. And when I try for less air I end up with almost no foam. Off to make another. I'll be bouncing off the walls soon!


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## DoubleShot

hotmetal

How much of a vortex/whirlwind do you manage to get going on whilst steaming? Get that right and you should over come having the milk and foam separating problem.


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## hotmetal

Yeah that's what I thought DS. Obviously the R58 has steam power in spades. I have a 2-hole tip. I get a mega vortex - the Ark Royal would probably go down in it (if it fitted in a jug LOL!) - it's all I can do to stop the milk from 'roiling' instead of spinning. Maybe I'm still introducing too much air? I have tried the "tsp-tsp and keep the tip still" approach, the "1-second mega-blast and long spin" method and the "stretch and dive" method but struggle to consistently get an even texture all the way through. When I pour, I find that the foam has started to come to the top and if I try for less foam, there never seems to be enough texture. I actually did have better success with my Classic. I just can't quite get the balance right these days - either too much or too little. I do knock out the big bubbles and swirl the jug, and I don't leave it standing for ages - I steam the milk, and pull the shot while I'm wiping and purging the wand. So the milk gets a swirl every 10 seconds for the 30" it takes to pull the shot, and then it's the usual story: I pour in from say 6", which seems to almost blast the crema out of the way, then as I come down, the milk either dips straight under, or it flops out in a nearly 3D-mess of overaerated foam at the end. OK it's not always that dramatically crap but usually not impressive. I really thought I'd have cracked it by now, I've had the R58 for a few months now. Beginning to feel a bit of a muppet! I did once manage a half-presentable small cappa, which as luck would have it was poured for Glenn when he came over to pick up my Classic. Maybe I should have just swapped the Classic for a day of tuition&#8230;


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## DoubleShot

Can't comment on using a 2-hole tip or a steam wand more powerful than that on my Brewtus using a stock single hole tip but for me a 1 second introduction of air has never produced suitable microfoam to pour or should I say attempt latte art. It's more like 3-4 seconds for me. I then submerge the tip below the milk surface, about 1cm away from the edge of the jug, around about a 9 o'clock position. I tilt the top of the jug back and towards the right and hold it as steady as possible. I'm not getting the best vortex in the world going like in most of the excellent YouTube videos but it does move it around. After tapping out any large bubbles, I'll continuously spin the jug until I start pouring. Swirl the cup gently so the crema distributes a little around the sides. I start from a height probably lower than your 6 inches from top rim of cup. Maybe around 3-4 inches. Small stream into the centre of crema. Stop. Gently swirl cup again. You should now have a good even crema on the whole of the surface. Tip the cup towards you at around 45 degrees. Start the pour again around the centre or a little further towards the back of the cup. Time to lower the spout really close to the surface of the crema and get your wiggle on. Try not to pour too fast or you'll run out of room and reach the rim before you've managed your pattern of choice. Depends what you're aiming for but most involve a lift at the end then a 'slow' cut through to define. Too fast and often you'll drag the leaves etc back down and semi-spoil your pattern. Practise, practise, practise. Try not to get frustrated although sometimes easier said than done. It'll come eventually.

Good luck.


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## KkAaNnEe

hotmetal said:


> Yeah that's what I thought DS. Obviously the R58 has steam power in spades. I have a 2-hole tip. I get a mega vortex - the Ark Royal would probably go down in it (if it fitted in a jug LOL!) - it's all I can do to stop the milk from 'roiling' instead of spinning. Maybe I'm still introducing too much air? I have tried the "tsp-tsp and keep the tip still" approach, the "1-second mega-blast and long spin" method and the "stretch and dive" method but struggle to consistently get an even texture all the way through. When I pour, I find that the foam has started to come to the top and if I try for less foam, there never seems to be enough texture. I actually did have better success with my Classic. I just can't quite get the balance right these days - either too much or too little. I do knock out the big bubbles and swirl the jug, and I don't leave it standing for ages - I steam the milk, and pull the shot while I'm wiping and purging the wand. So the milk gets a swirl every 10 seconds for the 30" it takes to pull the shot, and then it's the usual story: I pour in from say 6", which seems to almost blast the crema out of the way, then as I come down, the milk either dips straight under, or it flops out in a nearly 3D-mess of overaerated foam at the end. OK it's not always that dramatically crap but usually not impressive. I really thought I'd have cracked it by now, I've had the R58 for a few months now. Beginning to feel a bit of a muppet! I did once manage a half-presentable small cappa, which as luck would have it was poured for Glenn when he came over to pick up my Classic. Maybe I should have just swapped the Classic for a day of tuition&#8230;


Biggest thing that stands out for me is that you are doing your milk first, I would flip that around and do your shot first, if you are giving the milk time to seperate, it will


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## DoubleShot

Good tip KkAaNnEe and one I myself started using a couple of days ago. My previous thoughts were to pull the shot after steaming the milk so the crema wouldn't dissipate but I've found that doesn't happen in the time it takes to do the milk and doing the milk after means it has less time to stand and start separating.


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## KkAaNnEe

DoubleShot said:


> Good tip KkAaNnEe and one I myself started using a couple of days ago. My previous thoughts were to pull the shot after steaming the milk so the crema wouldn't dissipate but I've found that doesn't happen in the time it takes to do the milk and doing the milk after means it has less time to stand and start separating.


My crema normally lasts fine with doing milk second and has on occasion lasted up to 2 minutes. Some say this has detrimental effects on the shot itself although I haven't tasted *much* difference tbh. Especially you guys with dual boilers, even quicker!


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## hotmetal

Cheers lads. Will try that. I thought the same about the crema. With a db machine I have the choice and no excuse.


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## hotmetal

Apropos DS' comments in post 17 I tried introducing a longer blast of air (4" instead of 1") and the milk stretched up to the top of the jug. Obviously I overdid it and it was still almost 3D at the end but to be fair it was a lot better and I did get decent texture throughout. Just a little too firm and bubbly but it does seem like a bit of progress. I think I've been doing the same thing for too long and 'practicing' the wrong thing rather than trying out different steaming styles.


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## wilse

How far are we turning the steam valve knob... oh er..?


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## DoubleShot

hotmetal

Your steam wand is obviously more powerful than mine (I'm starting to wonder if there's something internally causing a lack of steam power?) hence why I was finding 3 to 4 secs of introducing air is necessary. Maybe try to double your previous amount, so 2 secs.

Different members describe the sound made whilst introducing air at the very beginning of the process differently. I believe this could be very important to the final product produced. If the steam tip is above the surface of the milk, you'll probably get a load of big bubbles (this is bad!), just below the surface and you might not be introducing air like you think. But resting on the surface and you might be golden? Akin to a paper tearing sound is the best way is describe it. Some say tsk tsk, other churk churk. I believe there is a difference depending on steam tip placement. They are not one and the same. I do feel your pain though as I'm in a similar boat at the moment in not being able to produce jug after jug of silky microfoam like the latte art competition pro's! 

Perhaps start a new thread of your own and a kind mod (MrBoots2u) can transfer our mini discussion over to it rather than mess up KkAaNnEe's excellent one?






wilse

I previously asked this and jeebsy said after a certain point of turning the steam knob (not much on my Brewtus) the flow of steam no longer becomes any greater. i.e. it's on its maximum output then.


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## jeebsy

DoubleShot said:


> hotmetal
> 
> Your steam wand is obviously more powerful than mine (I'm starting to wonder if there's something internally causing a lack of steam power?) hence why I was finding 3 to 4 secs of introducing air is necessary. Maybe try to double your previous amount, so 2 secs.
> 
> Different members describe the sound made whilst introducing air at the very beginning of the process differently. I believe this could be very important to the final product produced. If the steam tip is above the surface of the milk, you'll probably get a load of big bubbles (this is bad!), just below the surface and you might not be introducing air like you think. But resting on the surface and you might be golden? Akin to a paper tearing sound is the best way is describe it. Some say tsk tsk, other churk churk. I believe there is a difference depending on steam tip placement. They are not one and the same. I do feel your pain though as I'm in a similar boat at the moment in not being able to produce jug after jug of silky microfoam like the latte art competition pro's!
> 
> Perhaps start a new thread of your own and a kind mod (MrBoots2u) can transfer our mini discussion over to it rather than mess up KkAaNnEe's excellent one?


You're using a one hole tip, aren't you?


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## DoubleShot

Yes jeebsy, for the moment anyway. I did mention that to hotmetal who is using a 2-hole tip plus possibly has more steam power on tap than I have.


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## jeebsy

I'll send you a more powerful one to try if you want but while the one hole to on the brewtus is slow, you should still be able to get really good microfoam


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## KkAaNnEe

DoubleShot said:


> hotmetal
> 
> Perhaps start a new thread of your own and a kind mod (MrBoots2u) can transfer our mini discussion over to it rather than mess up KkAaNnEe's excellent one?


Very good idea DS, I think it would be beneficial to keep this about the Classic to enhance the original post. No offence of course as yoi could continue in another thread if poss


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## DoubleShot

jeebsy said:


> I'll send you a more powerful one to try if you want but while the one hole to on the brewtus is slow, you should still be able to get really good microfoam


What got me thinking that the steam output on my Brewtus isn't powerful enough was coffeechap posting a photo of his GS3 warming up for round 1 of latte art competition. As one member mentioned it reminded him of the large clouds of smoke given off by tyres squealing at the start of a race! Mine is not even close when I open steam wand knob fully whilst it's over the drip tray, I'm only seeing a little steam plus fine water mist/spray exiting the nozzle!


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## jeebsy

That's because you have a one hole tip on it. Put a three or four hole on and turn the pressure slightly and you'll have a hot rod too


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## jeebsy

http://Http://youtu.be/tg6E9Gu9O7Y


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## DoubleShot

I'm not getting anything like that much steam. Might have to turn up the pressure like you did on yours...


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## jeebsy

It's BECAUSE YOU HAVE A ONE HOLE TIP


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## jeebsy

Fewer holes =less power= more control

More holes= more power = less control


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## DoubleShot

I think I've got it now, thanks!


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## jeebsy

My offer to send you a more powerful tip to try out still stands


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## Mrboots2u

here


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## PedC

Some good info here!


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## DoubleShot

jeebsy

After watching your video, thought I'd make one of mine with stock steam tip and unchanged pressurestat


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## Obnic

Choices choices: (a) wind up the pressure stat; (b) try the two hole tip; © take out the cool wand plastic tube; (d) dremel drill the single hole tip .


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## DoubleShot

Might be going all out and trying out a WBC Aurelia tip (4 x 1mm holes) which I'm informed isn't too vicious on a Brewtus


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## Cana

Hmm Having trouble with my 4 hole tip .. I either get a crap ton of bubbles and the milk gets too hot to fix them in a vortex. Or I get very spiny milk with no foam.

I had amazing results with a single hole tip on my previous machine but 4 hole seems impossible!

Do they make single hole tip for Gaggia TS? or two hole tip?


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## Mrboots2u

Cana said:


> Hmm Having trouble with my 4 hole tip .. I either get a crap ton of bubbles and the milk gets too hot to fix them in a vortex. Or I get very spiny milk with no foam.
> 
> I had amazing results with a single hole tip on my previous machine but 4 hole seems impossible!
> 
> Do they make single hole tip for Gaggia TS? or two hole tip?


I don't know what the configuration of the holes are on your team tip but you can use if for small amounts if you persist and practice

But Man up ....learn to use the power you have









Have you tried blocking one whole on the 4 steam tip , to see if that works as a compromise ....


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## Obnic

Cana said:


> Hmm Having trouble with my 4 hole tip .. I either get a crap ton of bubbles and the milk gets too hot to fix them in a vortex. Or I get very spiny milk with no foam...


Just a thought...

Usually, 'a crap ton of bubbles' results from the tip breaching the surface of the milk, either because the tip gets too high relative to the milk or the vortex is too vigorous and creates cavitation around the tip so it breaches the surface regardless of how high the jug is held.

If it's the former, try submerging the tip first and letting the jug down slowly. This may give better control.

If it's the latter, then I would experiment first with either position of wand in jug (closer to centre vs closer to edge) and jug/wand angle (wand more vertical / jug more or less tilted). If that didn't work then I'd conclude that steam pressure is overpowering the jug. I'd start by venting off some of the pressure before steaming and seeing if that made things smoother. If it did, I might think about adjusting my steam boiler pressure down permanently.

For the record, i acknowledge that I'm theorising. In practice, I found one hole slow but totally controllable, two hole just created chaotic turbulence rather than spin (big bubbles), three hole created spin but crap texture, but four hole is both fast and controlled at 1.7 bar.... for me with my Motta 350ml.


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## hotmetal

No wonder they sell tips in sets of 4 then! So many variables/characteristics got each type! Good post though Obnic. Shame the 'set of 4 Rocket steam tips' that BB sell don't fit the R58. Although I am making some progress with my 2 hole.


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## lucasd

If you use two-hole tip do you always align it perfectly flat? As especially with the angled hand it seems quite cumbersome...


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## hombre_mediocre

Really looking forward to getting better at this! Thanks


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## DoubleShot

hombre_mediocre said:


> Really looking forward to getting better at this! Thanks


A few videos that explain things very well:






Hope that helps.


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## Obnic

Do like those Verve vids (second one) very clear and thorough.


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## DoubleShot

Obnic said:


> Do like those Verve vids (second one) very clear and thorough.


That was one of the first videos I tried following and imo there's one point which I don't agree with. Baca (sp?) says the steam wand should basically be in an up and down position. A couple of side profile shots show it in this type of position but during close-ups the angle of the steam tip looks quite different.

In the Origin video (first one in above post) that dude explains and demonstrates what I mean.

Think this explains why I was rarely ever able to get any kind of decent vortex going over the past few months as I was following how Baca describes to have the steam wand in the milk.


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## jeebsy

The Origin one is interesting in that he says for thicker foam do a more aggressive stretch at the start - i was told by a couple of barista to keep the same gentle stretch you would for a flattie or something but just do it for a few more seconds. The foam in his glass after is lovely though.

The more of these videos i see the more it looks like there's so many different ways to do it and it's just a case of finding what works for you.


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## Mrboots2u

Baca no longer at Verve , as he has set up a new roasters

Anyway you should all be ghost riding the steam wand you noobs


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## DoubleShot

I'm guessing that is more to do with him explaining use of a commercial La Mazocco machine that no doubt has far more steam power than most of the prosumer machines many of us own?

But you're not wrong, youtube videos by wholelattelove etc suggest adding air for slightly longer when you want denser foam for cappas etc.

Different strokes for different folks...


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## jeebsy

Produces a good video does Baca


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## DoubleShot

jeebsy said:


> Produces a good video does Baca


Was thinking exactly the same just earlier when watching the Verve video AGAIN!


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## jeebsy

All over this


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## Mrboots2u

there was that mad guy who used to ghost ride on a brewtus or a bezzera on here

Did mad stuff with latte art and hot chocolate ( would have been on the old thread that went missing )


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## DoubleShot

Mrboots2u said:


> Anyway you should all be ghost riding the steam wand you noobs


MENTAL but sooo cool!


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## DoubleShot

jeebsy said:


> All over this


Watching that made a turn on, lol! I've definitely been there and done that...smashing my design up against the back of the cup. Only to find that the design finishes around the centre point by the time the cups full.

Got something new to try tomorrow...


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## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


> there was that mad guy who used to ghost ride on a brewtus or a bezzera on here
> 
> Did mad stuff with latte art and hot chocolate ( would have been on the old thread that went missing )


The Swede?


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> The Swede?


YEah he was like swedishbarista but was korean or something

Anthony Nugen????


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## jeebsy

Nguyen, Vietnamese i think?


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> Nguyen, Vietnamese i think?


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## garydyke1

Ghost riding the tip on the Sage is awesome, reduce steam boiler temp to 130 and you can pop to the shops come back and its almost ready.


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## DoubleShot

Just watched all of the Honey Co videos. Not only informative but those guys look they're having loads of fun too! 

Especially found the one about tamping interesting.

http://honeycocoffee.com/pages/videos


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## hotmetal

Ghost riding! If I didn't know better I'd say that's where "Look mum no hands" got their name from LOL!


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## DoubleShot

Mrboots2u said:


>


A great example demonstrating that if you have the skill set, good latte art can be achieved even without crema!


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## jeebsy

garydyke1 said:


> Ghost riding the tip


Next level


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## morphsbsd

DoubleShot said:


> A great example demonstrating that if you have the skill set, good latte art can be achieved even without crema!


The art work at the end is just showing off.


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## DoubleShot

morphsbsd said:


> The art work at the end is just showing off.


Old adage: if you've got it, flaunt it...


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## funinacup

That drip tray is cool


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## garydyke1

Crema just gets in the way..... pesky crema


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