# Getting really fed up!



## tcr4x4

With my milk!

About twice I've got milk perfect, but then I can never do it again, even if I do exactly the same thing.

Ive got temp tags, a thermometer and a 20 oz jug and I've just also bought an espro toroid 20 oz jug to see if that helped but I still can't get it right.

The main problem is I don't get any proper microfoam until the very last few ml of milk at the end of the jug, by which time the cup is full and there isn't enough milk foam to even attempt latte art, I just end up with a dribble of white foam on top.

With the toroid, I tried just sticking the wand in the middle about half way down.. That didn't work, so I tried the usual way with the tip just above the surface for a while and then in the centre, that didn't work.. I tried the usual tip above the surface for the whole process and that didn't work...

I'm using whole milk and the rancilio wand, and I know I can do it, as I have before, just why can't I do it consistently?


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## shrink

what machine do you have again?

even on a fracino cherub with the 4x1mm steam tip, a 20oz jug is big! i use a 12oz rattleware jug and get gorgeous milk pretty much every time


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## bronc

Sounds like a Gaggia Classic. Like shrink said 20oz is way too big.


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## garydyke1

The bigger the jug the more steam power you'll need for a great texture.

Why do you use such a large jug?


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## shrink

i fill my 12oz up to bellow the spout and its perfect for an 8oz drink. I also get much more dense microfoam and a more easy to handle pour thanks to the size


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## tcr4x4

*****

Edit!!

Thought they were 20's, then 12's, they aren't, they are 20!

****

I was told 20 oz was ok.. I'm guessing not!!

I do also have a 12oz, but it seems to small.. I'll keep trying with that instead and see if it makes any difference.

Machine is gaggia classic.


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## shrink

fair do's... i had a carezza (same steam power as classic) and found it a bit of a nightmare.

In generally i started steaming just before the light came on to say the boiler was up to pressure. It gave a few extra seconds of valuable steaming power and meant that the boiler stayed on a bit longer. That said, i rarely got great milk out the gaggia.


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## 4085

At different times of the year, cows diet vary. They are going out to grass now and as such, it is thought by some that nutrients such as magnesium, are suddenly taken in by the bucket. One of the effects of this is that it appears to have an effect on the capability of steaming milk to produce microfoam. It is generally though that full fat milk helps, but it will not at this time of year.

This is the reason many choose filtered milk such as Tescos own or Cravendale. If you could do it before, then it is not you!


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## shrink

20oz on a classic is way too big









i use a 12oz on the steam beast that is the cherub and its just perfect for most normal sized drinks. I only break out the 20oz if i'm making for two people at once


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## tcr4x4

dfk41 said:


> At different times of the year, cows diet vary. They are going out to grass now and as such, it is thought by some that nutrients such as magnesium, are suddenly taken in by the bucket. One of the effects of this is that it appears to have an effect on the capability of steaming milk to produce microfoam. It is generally though that full fat milk helps, but it will not at this time of year.
> 
> This is the reason many choose filtered milk such as Tescos own or Cravendale. If you could do it before, then it is not you!


Perfect, blame it on the damn cows!!!



shrink said:


> 20oz on a classic is way too big
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> i use a 12oz on the steam beast that is the cherub and its just perfect for most normal sized drinks. I only break out the 20oz if i'm making for two people at once


Ill start using the 12oz all the time and see if I can regain my very limited skills..

Anyone want to buy a day old 20oz toroid jug?


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## 4085

20 Oz for 2 people.........do you have any coffee in there? I guess we all take it differently but I drink usually a classic cappuccino of 2 ounces coffee, milk and foam, so only use 4 to 5 ounces of milk!


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## shrink

remember thats a 20oz jug... if you filled it all the way to the top that'd be obscene and you couldnt froth with it.

i only ever fill a jug half way (ish) so a 20oz jug would end up with about 10oz of milk and maybe 15oz of steamed foam at the end. thats perfect for a pair of 8oz lattes.

i normally make a flat white... ristretto double shot into 6oz cup, topped up with steamed milk. So half of my 12oz jug is perfect again.


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## autopilot

I'm in the same boat, I'm also very disheartened. I'm hoping a Rancilio arm might help next month when funds permit, but I was hoping that the standard gaggia one might get something close-ish in the meantime. I just end up with hot milk and varying amounts of usless bubbly foam on top.

I have used a commercial machine and found getting a good micro foam was fairly easy. I'm starting to think the gaggia classic is just a bit rubbish at steam and cappuccino and really decent latte are out of the question.


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## 4085

The Toroid jugs are fantastic. they taught me how to make proper microfoam in the days when I thought my Expobar Dual boiler was powerful! I am being serious about Cravendale. I use it all the time. Go and try a litre and report back!


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## The Systemic Kid

tcr4x4 said:


> With the toroid, I tried just sticking the wand in the middle about half way down.. That didn't work, so I tried the usual way with the tip just above the surface for a while and then in the centre, that didn't work.. I tried the usual tip above the surface for the whole process and that didn't work... I'm using whole milk and the rancilio wand, and I know I can do it, as I have before, just why can't I do it consistently?


The Classic isn't blessed with the biggest set of lungs but with the Rancilio arm you should be able to get decent microfoam. The steam wand should be at an angle into the jug with the tip just under the surface. As your milk increases in volume, you need to raise the wand to keep it just under the surface. If you get it right, you should hear a sort of slapping noise. If the wand tip is raised above the surface of the milk, you will introduce too much air. When the temp tag indicates the right temp has been reached, your milk should have a shiny velvety texture with no visible bubbles. If there are one or two, tap the jug on the work surface to get rid. Before pouring, give the jug a good swirl to ensure the milk and microfoam are properly mixed. With your toroid jug, I'm assuming you get a good vortex going whilst you are are steaming - you might need to tilt the jug whilst keeping the wand tip near the edge of the jug - the milk must swirl whilst heating - essential for microfoaming.


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## The Systemic Kid

autopilot said:


> I'm in the same boat, I'm also very disheartened. I'm hoping a Rancilio arm might help next month when funds permit.


Sadly, the Paranello wand on the Classic is only good for heating milk and putting lots of bubbles in it. You'll need the Rancilio wand to get more precision.


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## 4085

I have a Bialetti milk steamer






It is absolutely fantastic at steaming, comes with no fancy ends. Just a bit of technique needed. You can get them cheaply enough if you scour around. then your Classic can concentrate on making espresso and you can forget trying to use it to steam


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## bronc

The jug I use is 330ml (12oz) and I fill it around halfway. I'm getting perfect microfoam even without the Rancilio wand. I have just removed the Pannarello attachment and use it like that. It's all in the technique. Keep the tip near the level of the milk where you're hearing the specific ts-ts-ts sound until you get to 30-40*C (depending on how much foam you want) and then move it to the side so it starts spinning the milk (here I usually open the valve more so I get more power to swirl the milk) and also plunge it below the surface of the milk so it stops expanding. Stop when you reach 60-65*C. After frothing the milk swirl it inside the jug so the milk and foam incorporate better.


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## tcr4x4

I know the theory and the practice like I said, I have done perfect milk on occasion, I just seem to have lost the knack recently. Its quite poissible the good milk I did was in the smaller jug.. I can't recall. I shall top using the bigger ones and see what happens

I only ever fill the jugs a third to half full too, so I'm not actually using 20oz of milk!! I use coffeechaps small illy cauppachino cups, so you can't get much milk in them anyway.

.. I shall try cravendale and report back tomorrow!


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## shrink

if you dont have the gaggia wand, its a must. It was a great improvement on my gaggia. really much more pleasant to use.


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## gman147

As the others have said, get yourself a 12oz steaming jug. I have a RattleWare and a Motta both 12oz. My fav is the Motta.


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## autopilot

Anyone ever tried one of these -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bodum-1446-Latteo-Milk-Frother/dp/B000BZ6BXE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366306306&sr=8-1&keywords=bodum+milk+frother

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cafetiere-Bialetti-Tuttocrema-Frothing-Surface/dp/B0001IXA4Y/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1366306318&sr=8-4&keywords=bodum+milk+frother


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## glevum

Never had any problem with any type of milk, been using the fat free skimmed red asda one for 2 years also never use a cold pitcher as some do. I think its getting to know your machine. with the Silvia i started steaming a min after flicking the steam switch so the element would stay on thru' the whole process, slowly injecting air into the milk with the tip above the milk upto around 25c then sink wand about 1cm onto the side of the jug at full blast to get a nice wave effect, worked every time for me

Totally different with a 2 holed tip on a HX machine, i have to make sure both holes are under the milk at all times, with the power and wave effect air is hardly introduced or unnoticeable and done in a 20 cl jug in about 15-20 seconds.

anyway, i have found both of these machines provide the same end result microfoam though made in a slight different way.

PS..i just could not get on with the espro jug and sold it on, have also got a handleless cafelat one which is okay. I have found the Motta ones fantastic and worth every penny, best at steaming & pouring for me


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## tcr4x4

Just tried in my 12oz jug with some whole milk (shop didnt have cravendale) Better, but more practice needed..


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## Pablo

autopilot said:


> Anyone ever tried one of these -
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bodum-1446-Latteo-Milk-Frother/dp/B000BZ6BXE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366306306&sr=8-1&keywords=bodum+milk+frother
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cafetiere-Bialetti-Tuttocrema-Frothing-Surface/dp/B0001IXA4Y/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1366306318&sr=8-4&keywords=bodum+milk+frother


I've got the bodum you've linked to. I used to use it with my aeropress in my first ventures into coffee. Unfortunately, it won't produce microfoam.

What you get is a thick dense foam but there's no way of producing anything fine enough for latte art with it, not that I could find!!


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## tcr4x4

Been using my 12oz jug for the last few days, still no better, so its got to be my technique.


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## suferick

autopilot said:


> I'm in the same boat, I'm also very disheartened. I'm hoping a Rancilio arm might help next month when funds permit, but I was hoping that the standard gaggia one might get something close-ish in the meantime. I just end up with hot milk and varying amounts of usless bubbly foam on top.
> 
> I have used a commercial machine and found getting a good micro foam was fairly easy. I'm starting to think the gaggia classic is just a bit rubbish at steam and cappuccino and really decent latte are out of the question.


Good steaming is possible on a Classic, and much easier with the Rancilio arm.

But you may be experiencing the early symtoms of that insidious disease - upgradeitis.

With a Heat Exchanger or double boiler machine, steam power is so much more (but your bank balance correspondingly less)


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## garydyke1

A commercial Fracino Bambino which is about 1500 quid has steam power a billion times more powerful than my Brewtus 1000 quid. If steam power is your ultimate goal then commercial machine always wins


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## shrink

well.. i think the steam power on a GS3 is pretty good









for what its worth, i'd say that the commercial machines deliver the steam power in a very different way as well.

with the large four hole tip, my fracino has huge power, but its not very refined, or controllable. Putting the 4x1mm tip on, backs that off and I think is a great balance of making the most of the power on the machine.

The LM commercial machine i used, had similar sized tip holes, but more power, so it was indeed more powerful, but was also smooth and controllable. For the milk i steam in a day, the fracino's power is absolutely superb.


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## garydyke1

Indeed. Power is nothing without control.


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## shrink

with great power comes great responsibility


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## garydyke1

shrink said:


> with great power comes great responsibility


..and usually a huge steam boiler


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## shrink

2.3 litres will do me!

just made an epic flat white. I forgot how bloody good Cachoeira is. Its much richer than most has-beans, but also very tasty.


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## garydyke1

Now this is a large steam boiler ; )


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## tcr4x4

No point upgrading until what you have is limiting you.. Im a long way from there!


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## The Systemic Kid

garydyke1 said:


> Now this is a large steam boiler ; )


Wow, now that's the look of a machine saying don't mess me around - think I'd wait until it had calmed down before approaching and asking very nicely if it would mind awfully making me an espresso or two.


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## coffeechap

My classic will do that, if I set fire to it!


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## shrink

haha







its OK... if philips lower the build quality much more, it'll probably start setting fire to itself.


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## The Systemic Kid

shrink said:


> haha
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> its OK... if philips lower the build quality much more, it'll probably start setting fire to itself.


Now that's a little unnkind!


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## shrink

I have no doubt in my mind that the classic was and possibly still is a great machine. I had a little gaggia carezza and I hated it.

In all fairness a lot of that was down to the fact it had no 3 way release valve, so it dripped like nothing else. PLus the tiny drip tray didnt help.

but these little machines just don't do it for me in terms of steam power, consistency, temperature stability etc. Its why i upgraded very quickly!


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## Lex_B

I am finding the Classic to be a great starter machine. It took me a few weeks to learn how to get consistent silky microfoam, but that's just down to learning the quirks of the machine. I am only saving to upgrade because of its inability to make multiple drinks quickly, as well as wanting temp control and pre-infusion.


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## aodstratford

dfk41 said:


> At different times of the year, cows diet vary. They are going out to grass now and as such, it is thought by some that nutrients such as magnesium, are suddenly taken in by the bucket. One of the effects of this is that it appears to have an effect on the capability of steaming milk to produce microfoam. It is generally though that full fat milk helps, but it will not at this time of year.
> 
> This is the reason many choose filtered milk such as Tescos own or Cravendale. If you could do it before, then it is not you!


Cows moving from field to barn or barn to field definitely messes up the milk / abilty to make microfoam.


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## coffeechap

is it because you get crushed in the herd ?


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## autopilot

dfk41 said:


> At different times of the year, cows diet vary. They are going out to grass now and as such, it is thought by some that nutrients such as magnesium, are suddenly taken in by the bucket. One of the effects of this is that it appears to have an effect on the capability of steaming milk to produce microfoam. It is generally though that full fat milk helps, but it will not at this time of year.
> 
> This is the reason many choose filtered milk such as Tescos own or Cravendale. If you could do it before, then it is not you!


I had missed this until it was quoted above by another forum user. I'm sorry but this sounds incredibly dubious to me. Can you evidence this, any studies done, links?


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## 4085

auto, what do cows eat at this time of year when they are turned out? What supplements do cows get fed by farmers to combat the effect of grass. What are cows fed when they are indoors or close to the farm in winter.

Speaks for itself


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## aodstratford

I use milk from a local jersey herd and have experienced this problem which really stumped me - when i have spoken with a coffee shop owner in stratford upon avon who also uses their milk (box brownie) -we shared the same problem. His greater experience of the milk and discussions with the milk supplier confirmed this. Not scientific but I personally am convinced !


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## autopilot

dfk41 said:


> auto, what do cows eat at this time of year when they are turned out? What supplements do cows get fed by farmers to combat the effect of grass. What are cows fed when they are indoors or close to the farm in winter.
> 
> Speaks for itself


With all due respect, I don't think it does. I would love to be proven wrong and I remain open minded, but to me that sound like the kind of thing I read on audiophile forums, some vaguely logical and oversimplified facts strung together to construct a theory. Yes, undoubtedly there will be slight differences in milk based on what they eat. I grew up in and around dairy farms and many farmers do things differently. To be able to link back milk foaming properties is a huge stretch when there are other variables too. Is this an internet forum theory, or a genuine issue which is considered in the coffee industry?

I would love to be proven wrong, no offence I just have a questioning mind!


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## 4085

I have no scientific evidence, but I have seen it discussed on other forums in great detail with scientists chipping in. Apparently the diet directly affects the composition of the milk, so that at different times of year, you get this problem. From memmory I am certain it was suggested that magnesium which is prevalent in early flush grasses was the cuplrit. As a result, I have used filtered milk for years and never suffer this problem. Not scientific, but it has been discussed at length elsewhere. If I can find any links I will post them.


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## The Systemic Kid

Did some latte training this evening. The trainer, who owned the shop, mentioned in passing that some times the milk he gets from the same supplier just won't stretch no matter what he did to it. He said he just put it down to being a bad batch. Interesting.


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## autopilot

dfk41 said:


> I have no scientific evidence, but I have seen it discussed on other forums in great detail with scientists chipping in. Apparently the diet directly affects the composition of the milk, so that at different times of year, you get this problem. From memmory I am certain it was suggested that magnesium which is prevalent in early flush grasses was the cuplrit. As a result, I have used filtered milk for years and never suffer this problem. Not scientific, but it has been discussed at length elsewhere. If I can find any links I will post them.


Cheers that would be interesting. I find stuff like this fascinating, I'm also very sceptical


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## autopilot

The Systemic Kid said:


> Did some latte training this evening. The trainer, who owned the shop, mentioned in passing that some times the milk he gets from the same supplier just won't stretch no matter what he did to it. He said he just put it down to being a bad batch. Interesting.


Did he have this problem for months on end, or just the odd batch? Sometimes they make changes to the way it processed based on tests they do, yields and logistic considerations. so that could lend to the food theory. In my mind its more likely to be indirect. Sometimes it's frozen, deferent levels of coagulation etc more likely to effect foam properties than what he cow ate. Anyway, I think that's enough on this for me. The things I think about when I should be working!


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## 4085

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/25555541?uid=3738032&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21102189721337

found this whilst googling


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## autopilot

Fitted the Rancilio arm today and got foam first time







Very happy after weeks of hot milk with a couple of bubbles on top. Still need to perfect my technique but at least it can do it now. Strange that Gaggia persist with their completely useless thing, the Rancilio arm is an essential upgrade.


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## shrink

the rancilio arm makes a huge difference (and is much easier to get into a jug). I loved it on my old Gaggia.


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