# Damned La Pavoni filter



## Vieux Clou

Wretched Europiccola** 49mm filter falls out of the PF every chance it gets. The rim fits over the top of the PF OK but the body is so loose there's no friction to hold it in. I like the rest of the machine, but burnt coffee-covered fingers from fishing the damned thing out of the knock box is rapidly taking the shine off it.

Any remedies?

** 2nd-hand pre-millennium with original accessories.


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## insatiableOne

I wish I could find an upgraded basket for my Stradivari.

Just sounds as if you just need to get a new basket, I cannot imagine it should fall out, although not the first have heard this. Might as well source a new bottomless PF too, Christmas could come early for yourself.

Or worst case scenario, if you just cannot find the scratch, try lightly hammering (use mallet) the lip down/in. Sounds it may find its way to the bin anyhow?

Lets see what the others have to say.


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## alexferdi

My Cremina has the same thing. I just pull out he basket by the outer rim and run it under cold water for a few seconds then it's not too hot and I bang it out in the bin. Doesn't take long to remember you can't bang it out the way you're used to


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## h1udd

I have had a couple of la pavs ... I thought they all did this ... I use a couple of baskets and pop one out and the new filled one in .... Then when the old one has cooled a bit then empty it


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## insatiableOne

Hope not, mine does not fall out while whacking it on the knockbox.


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## h1udd

Guess the bigger 51mm baskets are made as interference fit or have a spring ... Butt all the 49mm one are drop in baskets .... I don't have an issue since using 2 baskets ... I even fill the baskets out side of the filter holder ... In someways I prefer the loose fit especially for lining up multiple shots .. It allows you to prep the next shot before you have unlocked the PF that might still be pressurised


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## insatiableOne

Hmm, lets see if they make a crimped one then?

Mine just sits in like any other basket, the PF is cut & the basket sits around the chamfer.


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## jkb89

My 49mm drops out too! I just wait and run it under the tap, rinse the grinds down the sink... can't be faffing with the compost bin in the bleddy rain. Anyone know a cheap source for a 2nd basket? Seems like swapping them out might be the best idea


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## GCGlasgow

I have the same problem of basket falling out, was told when i took it for a service that the post millenium machines portafilter size was increased to incorporate a spring to hold in the basket. My thumb is now burn proof but did find it frustrating.


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## Vieux Clou

Interesting, but the stuff of desperation. I've considered soldering a sliver of copper to the side of the basket or into the PF but I'm loth to fiddle for fear of bollixing it up. I don't really need a 2nd basket, being the only one in the family that drinks real coffee.


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## h1udd

I have a microcosm a leva that uses the same baskets .... however on one of the baskets there is a small dimple that protrudes from the outer edge and causes an interference fit with the PF ... this keeps it in place ... you could get a hole punch and try making a dimple ?

if it goes wrong though ... that second basket will be needed









Or you could wrap some tape around the basket to wedge it in


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## Vieux Clou

I suppose I could try it with the 1-cup basket, which is pretty well useless, then if it works have a go at the 2-cup...


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## Rob1

The 49mm portafilters don't have a spring to keep the baskets in placed. I never found it to be a problem to stick my thumb just on the edge of the basket and quickly knock it out. It's uncomfortable but not hot enough to burn in the second it takes to knock the puck out. I think http://www.francescoceccarelli.eu/La_Pavoni/Dr_Pavoni/troubleshooting.htm had some modified portafilters to incorporate a spring at some point, might be worth a check.


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## Vieux Clou

Don't think he has now, but his site is a bit of a warren.

Anyway, I tried the bit with the centre punch on the single basket: no use. The wall of the PF tapers towards the top and the pimple raised by the punch isn't high enough to wedge the basket in place. Even if I punched out several such the impact on the bar of the knock box would still force it out. The double basket goes down in to the parallel-sides part of the PF but I don't want to put my one & only 2-cup at risk.

What the hell. Given the excellence of the shot I pulled just now I'll forgive it.


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## Rhys

Must be the older models as mine has a spring and is a pain to get out. Don't suppose wrapping tin foil round the basket is an option?


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## insatiableOne

Vieux Clou said:


> Interesting, but the stuff of desperation. I've considered soldering a sliver of copper to the side of the basket or into the PF but I'm loth to fiddle for fear of bollixing it up.


I can see that working..scuff up a minute spot (like use the smallest drill bit to make a rough impression) then a drop of solder would definitely make it tighter. Lightly sand or file down if tooo tight.

Could always try it with the basket you don't use. Then the second one you will be an expert.

Or go wit punch.. a flat punch. Light dimple might be enough?


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## Vieux Clou

Nah. Apart from what I said a couple of posts ago, the angle at which you have to incline the punch means that it skids rather than punches, which risks deforming the bottom of the basket. However, the solder blob is promising - and reversible.

Just checked: solder melts at ~180°C so unless the coffee is superheated at umpteen godzillion bars it should be OK. And I love the smell of flux in the morning. Resin flux, that is, not the other kind.


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## h1udd

Never underestimate the heating power of the la pavoni .... The early modes can easily make espresso at 180deg


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## insatiableOne

h1udd said:


> Never underestimate the heating power of the la pavoni .... The early modes can easily make espresso at 180deg


Not Celsius, Fahrenheit yes. I keep a thermometer on mine it STAYS pretty stable at 193. Very a few degrees at most.


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## Vieux Clou

Maybe use lead-free solder, too...


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## coffeechap

insatiableOne said:


> Not Celsius, Fahrenheit yes. I keep a thermometer on mine it STAYS pretty stable at 193. Very a few degrees at most.


Measure it after pulling four shots in succession, the group will sit solid UNTIL you start pulling shots


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## Vieux Clou

And if it reaches 193°C, contact NASA (or Jeff Bezos).


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## h1udd

apparently it will only reach 193 degC after pulling 9 back to back shots .... fortunately the boiler only contains enough water for 8 shots ...... well planned ? ..... I think so


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## insatiableOne

coffeechap said:


> Measure it after pulling four shots in succession, the group will sit solid UNTIL you start pulling shots


It might climb a few degrees, I take out the portafilter wash, wipe off it drops back down to where it was. I have pulled back to back six, seven. Left it on for two days, pulling shots refill. The temperature has always stayed consistent at the bell where I have my probe fixed.

After the shot temp goes up a couple few degrees. I knock out the puck wash the basket & portafilter, put portafilter back in, grind beans, tamp, pull shot after shot. It never gets too hot after I re-adjusted the boiler. Flash boil when the shot is nearly dripping yes, overheat NO. I have watched it with a quality thermometer for over a year. I don't even bother any longer.

My average temp is a little different at times, but mostly 193-195f great for taste with my bean & roast.


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## Rob1

You've left it on for two days?


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## insatiableOne

Rob1 said:


> You've left it on for two days?


Do it sometimes. I have the 16 shot boiler, 2014 model.

http://eshop.lapavoni.com/en/lanotattachments/download/file/id/40/store/3/man_stradivarigranromantica.pdf


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## h1udd

unless you were planning on staying awake over night for 48 hours ..... why ?


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## insatiableOne

Heated it up, had some shots. Went to bed it was still on, woke up had a shot. Had a few more. Had a few more.

If I do not experience heating issues as others here with the older machines..then why not??


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## Rob1

It isn't just the older machines. That's a Stradivari so may be different but not as I've heard from other people with it. You've got an odd case there. I'd have thought from the temperature generated by the heating element and water that the brass group would overheat fairly quickly due to contact with the boiler.


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## insatiableOne

Nope, other with Stradivari have said the same.+ no temp surfing. That is why I could not justify an old model vs. cost.

I did adjust the boiler from factory setting.


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## Dylan

I think you will be lucky to get a blob of solder to stick to either the basket or the PF.

I would buy some gasketm... edit: maybe not


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## insatiableOne

*I* Would not silicone gasket maker with liquids for consumption. Perhaps you make judgement.

http://www.nakedwhiz.com/gasketsafety/ultracoppergasketmakertds.pdf

*Permatex Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS)*

In the Hazards Identification section, we find:

"Butanone oxime produced during curing is toxic and irritates eyes, nose and throat. Overexposure to the silane may cause coma and respiratory failure."

Then, in the Special Precautions section we find:

"When heated to temperatures above 300 degrees F. in the presence of air, this product can form formaldehyde vapors. Formaldehyde is a potential cancer hazard and a known skin and respiratory sensitizer. Safe handling conditions may be maintained by keeping vapor concentrations below the OSHA permissible limit for formaldehyde."

The first warning doesn't seem to be of any concern since it the butanone oxime is only produced during curing. If one applies this gasket material to the cooker and allows it to cure outdoors, there should be no significant exposure to this chemical. As we said, most of the discussion centered around the second statement regarding the formation of formaldahyde. Here are what we consider to be the salient points about this issue:


The only portion of the gasket that will reach 300° and be exposed to air is the inside edge.

It is debatable whether or not the "air" inside a cooker burning charcoal is the kind of "air" mentioned in the warning. The oxygen levels will certainly be lower than normal "air".

It is questionable that significant amounts (or any amounts) of formaldahyde will be formed.

The main hazard of exposure to formaldahyde is inhalation.

The main effect is irritation of the eyes, nose, throat and nasal cavity.

Per the EPA, occupational studies have noted statistically significant associations between exposure to formaldehyde and increased incidence of lung and nasopharyngeal cancer. This evidence is considered to be "limited," rather than "sufficient."

EPA estimates of the liklihood that inhalation of formaldahyde will increase the risk of cancer are based upon a person breathing air containing formaldahyde continuously all their lives. The risk of an increase is between 1 in 10,000 and 1 in 1,000,000, depending on the concentration.


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## Dylan

Didn't think of that, fair point!

Maybe look up the heat properties of Food-grade silicone.


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## Vieux Clou

h1udd said:


> apparently it will only reach 193 degC after pulling 9 back to back shots .... fortunately the boiler only contains enough water for 8 shots ...... well planned ? ..... I think so


Are you really talking Celsius here? 193°C = 379°F, almost first crack temperature. At that rate you could put a jacket round the boiler and roast beans in it.

For reference, in a steam locomotive the operating boiler pressure of 190 psi is attained at 195°C/383°F (Wiki). 190 psi = 12.7 bar. The EP pressure gauge is bright red at 2.5 bar.


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## h1udd

it was tongue in cheek in reference to how hot our girls get pulling multiple shots ....... I have no idea how hot mine gets, all I know is if I dont start dunking the PF after the 2nd back to back shot she starts to flash boil the coffee.


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## coffeechap

la pavoni must have changed something in your version as in every la pavoni I have ever stripped serviced and used, they overheat, a fact which is widely acknowledged across all coffee forums, yours must be different.


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## insatiableOne

I posted the article in another thread Coffeechap, yes they changed...let me find it..

Other forums are changing their facts with the newer machines as well.

Simple search from coffeegeek..if you find it credible, as follows

As stated previously, my test La Pavoni is the older 49mm filter basket version. Pavoni has redesigned their Lever machines recently, and Angelo Forzano of European Gift and Houseware sent along a detailed letter that explains the changes and why they were made. I've included portions of the letter below:

*A La Pavoni machine, due to its basic construction, is made to be turned on, used, then turned off, ideally, within 25 minutes. Two factors come into play if your La Pavoni machine is left on for prolonged periods. First you risk running the boiler dry, since there is no direct water feed. Second, because of all the metal to metal fitting the units slowly become hotter and hotter, heat, as you may know is a deterrent to making good coffee, and it does build up in the machine.*



*
While many (lower priced) pump espresso machines do not actually have enough power to produce a hot cup of coffee, the La Pavoni dilemma was that it produces too much heat. This is one reason the La Pavoni lever machine is a steaming gem, cup after cup of cappuccino can be produced with little or no recover time. This heat problem was barely noticeable when making 3-4 cups, but if more drinks need to be prepared then a sufficient "crema" would be harder to achieve. (ed note: in our testing the first shot is the best; it is a slow downgrade after that point due to heat damage).*



*
**In 1999 La Pavoni set out to correct this imbalance, a year later the MILLENIUM models came to market. A novice would be hard pressed to see the difference between the two units beside the fact that the group on the Millennium is larger, however, internally many changes took place.*



*
(The move to a) larger group solved two problems, it allowed the water in the group to sit in a larger area which would allow the water to mix with air and cool naturally. The water would also cool faster if it did not come into contact with metal; so the group is now lined with a nylon sleeve made of ryton, effectively placing a vacuum barrier between the water and metal wall.*



*
Last, a vented spacer was fit between the group and the boiler, this perforated spacer allows excess steam to travel up, away from the water and back into the boiler. A larger handle, screen and filter basket round out the changes. *



*
Specifications of changes are as follows:*

*
Filter holder: now 59.5 mm up from 57.5 mm*

*
Upper zone of group: now 60 mm up from 50 mm*

*
Internal Screen: now 50.5mm up from 48.3*

*
Filter basket: now 53.5mm up from 48.3*



*
After testing, the final results indicate a drop of 6% - 9%, or 10-15 degrees F between the units. Testing was done during a four-month period with temperature changes ranging from 54 degrees F to 77 degrees F*


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## coffeechap

That's fab, something which i have previously seen however the post millennium groups still over heat, just not as badly and you have to run a cooling regime to get the best out of them.


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## insatiableOne

Hmm

Hey, an idea do you think, after thinking about this for a minute. That there could be an issue between my 120v & the standard EU 230v?? it is a substantial upgrade..in price tooo!

I could only imagine that the heavier heating unit could be an issue?


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## Vieux Clou

insatiableOne said:


> I posted the article in another thread Coffeechap, yes they changed...let me find it..
> 
> Other forums are changing their facts with the newer machines as well.
> 
> Simple search from coffeegeek..if you find it credible, as follows
> 
> ....


Fascinating. Reminds me of the problems involved in arriving at controlled nuclear fusion. My version appears to me the La Pavoni Tokamak.

In the meantime, if I may be allowed to [re-]hijack my own thread, any ideas what this thing might be? When I received my second-hand Eniwetok Device it was in the box.









And that's 90° angular, not Fahrenheit or Celsius.

My own thought is that it's a hook for fishing the god-damned basket out of the knock box.


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## Jollybean

You could try Sugru to keep it in place. Heat resistant to 180C and inert once cured for food safety. It is also removable if it doesn't do the job.


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## Vieux Clou

Aha... promising. Ta!


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## Vieux Clou

Double posted. Wot no delete-post button? Drat.


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