# Expobar dual boiler Vs Rocket HX



## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

After my experiences with faulty sage machines i am saving up and planning to buy a proper set up. Spending a crazy amount of money just to produce a decent coffee at home.

Budget is unknown but I'm expecting to have to spend at least 1000 pounds on a machine and another 500 on a grinder, minimum.

I want new machines as i intend on keeping this set up for many years and don't want to gamble on the word of other people regards to maintenance etc...

Now in my price range i can get a expobar dual boiler or a heat exchange rocket.

Now cosmetically i think all these type of machines and beautiful. The rockets might have the edge tho, but i need a good all rounder, and i ain't spending 2k on a rocket dB just cause it looks better than expobar equivalent.

I'm also open to grinder suggestions in this thread. I don't want a huge huge grinder.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Personally I'd go for a dual boiler machine over an HX machine, specially if you live in a hard water area and plan to use bottled water, as you will waste some with a cooling flushes. IMO.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Well . . . when I got my first set up 5 years ago I went for the Rocket Evo plus a Mini Mazzer. This was my first experience of Espresso making and it was a huge investment for us at that time. I soon got the hang of things and honestly, the coffee was pretty darned good. Off the top of my head I think the Evo was £1300 and the mm £550. We sold the Evo for £750 (less eBay fees) and will probably sell the mm for £200 (roughly, I don't even know what it is worth).

Yes, I have gone for a d/b and better grinder recently, but if we couldn't have afforded to do so I would have been happy keeping the kit we had!

It is like a lot of things, you don't always start off with the top of the range! I love my Leica camera but not many years ago I was as happy as Larry with the Kodak thing that came free with a desktop computer set up!

Can you go to Bella Bariasta and look at a few machines? I think doing that would make things much easier for you. For your budget you will be able to get something you are happy with, that will make great coffee and that you will be able to sell in the future.


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## pedg (Apr 11, 2017)

Look at the ECM Barista for £1199. Super machine. I tested a HX and a DB side by side and couldn't tell the difference in the cup.

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/ecm-barista.html

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/ECMBaristacloserlook2012v2.pdf

Have a quick read of my reviews if you've got nothing better to do or suffer from insomnia (will probably cure it).

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?37447-The-Facts-from-the-Fiction-(Types-of-Espresso-Machine)

I'd go for a HX at that price. Expobar are good but have a reputation for being very noisy.

I don't know an awful lot about grinders but at £500 I'd probably go for a Zenith 65E

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/eureka-zenith-65e-grinder.html

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/EurekaZenith65EvsMazzerMiniE.pdf

@DavecUK Recommends the Zenith...Thats good enough for me!

Any Qs please ask

Cheers

GP


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## wilse (Nov 14, 2013)

Expobar gets a thumbs up from me. I was hell bent on a Rocket, but didn't thing I was getting anything extra for the money.

Being a double boiler, I like being able to switch off just the steam boiler, if It's not going to be used, saves leccy.

I've been very impressed with the Expo's build quality and the drip tray is deep enough to have a bath in!

The steamer is very powerful, I'm experimenting with different hole tips.

I don't remember it being anymore noisy than my Classic (as both are pump driven.)

The pump runs for a few seconds when first firing up, it seems, every alternate day.

The low water 'turn the machine off to protect the element malarkey' still catches me out periodically, but it's better than buggering up the element.

Good luck with your choice!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

People buy Rockets, often based on aesthetics (sorry mildred!). If you could line up three machines and take a blind test with a shot from each, I doubt you would be able to distinguish very much. You could argue that an HX is better value if you are not steaming much as a bigger boiler retains heat longer before the element kicks in. The Expobar is a well made machine and I agree better value than Rockets


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> People buy Rockets, often based on aesthetics (sorry mildred!). If you could line up three machines and take a blind test with a shot from each, I doubt you would be able to distinguish very much. You could argue that an HX is better value if you are not steaming much as a bigger boiler retains heat longer before the element kicks in. The Expobar is a well made machine and I agree better value than Rockets


Don't apologise! I think balancing aesthetics with performance led me to Rocket in the beginning. I didn't compare prices as I knew that was what I wanted









Whatever you get you want to fall in love with it! It needs to 'feel right' for you. When you open that box you want to be over the moon with your purchase. Go with instinct. The machines already mentioned are all great - go see them and you will know what you want to go home with


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

If you're looking for small grinder then for me it comes down to:

Eureka mignon - great value though clumping can be an issue. Rock solid build.

Mazzer mini - similar to mignon

Eureka atom - step up from mignon though a tad expensive it seems. Very quiet.

Ceado e37s - high end grinder and second hand still a bit over your budget though for a big burr grinder they still fit under kitchen cabinets


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## CardinalBiggles (Apr 24, 2017)

It's more than just about the coffee. The Rockets are pure works of art.

My head says go for the engineering excellence, efficiency and Panzer-like build of the Teutonic ECM, but my heart says Rocket time and time again. Pure delight drinking coffee from either, I am sure,.... but the Rocket brightens your day every time you walk past it! You don't process coffee on it.... you make love to it, nurture it,..... worship it!

Il caffè è la vita in ogni tazza!









Ok. I know. Im nuts. But then 'normal' people think they are being discerning if they buy a jar of Gold Blend.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

CardinalBiggles said:


> It's more than just about the coffee. .... but the Rocket brightens your day every time you walk past it! You don't process coffee on it.... you make love to it


Speak for yourself. I don't. It would only make the grinder jealous.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

I like my expobar db, it makes pretty good coffee and it's way cheaper than the equivalent rocket. It can be a bit noisy but it's not that bad really. The group is a little different to a standard e61 as there is more space in the cavity above the shower screen, this means it ramps up to full pressure slower and increases the forgiveness factor if your prep isn't bang on. If you're happy to put in a bit of work I'd recommend pairing an expobar with a high end hand grinder which will be way cheaper than an electric, give the capability to single dose without much waste, save you money on a gym membership and leave lots of money left over for things like scales, bottled water and most importantly.......tasty coffee!


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

Hi Ben, its a hard decision and an important one with cost of a high end machine, as Mildred says its quite an investment and expense for most people-one that folk who are not into there coffee will understand and will think your nuts for spending that much on coffee equipment lol.

I would agree with dfk that you probably wont taste the difference in the cup between them so apart from key features looks are important, at least for me they where- its a hard balance.

I've been researching for a new machine for what feels like absolutely ages. Looked at the Sage dual boiler and while they are a great machine I just don't like the plastic, The db Expobar seems a solid machine but just not quite as attractive as say a Rocket. I wouldn't let the flush aspect on an HX machine be a factor as I've found its a very small volume of water and heats up a cup nicely although I do live in a very soft water area so don't need to use bottled.

I ended up going for the ECM Elektronika and am extremely happy with it, I cant take my eyes of it and it makes a great shot. I love the traditional look but wanted the volumetric buttons.

BB have been great to deal with and couldn't recommend enough.


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

Also meant to add check out the fiorenzato f4 nano grinder, it's got nice 58mm burrs, is a nice size and is very reasonably priced. Delivered for £380

Mine should arrive end of next week so will post info.


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

I've got an agreement in place to buy a used Rocket Appartmento machine bought in October last year, looks brand new. And a mazzer mini grinder that's a few years old and looks perfect.

I think I've got a good price but got to find out how much delivery will be as i don't have time to drive 4 hours to London.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Benjijames28 said:


> I've got an agreement in place to buy a used Rocket Appartmento machine bought in October last year, looks brand new. And a mazzer mini grinder that's a few years old and looks perfect.
> 
> I think I've got a good price but got to find out how much delivery will be as i don't have time to drive 4 hours to London.


Delivery will be cheaper than driving that distance! I think they've got the original packaging too so it should be safe if they use a decent company and have insurance.


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

MildredM said:


> Delivery will be cheaper than driving that distance! I think they've got the original packaging too so it should be safe if they use a decent company and have insurance.


Lost out on it.

The girl has had a better offer. She accepted an offer of 1000 pounds from me for the rocket machine and mazzer mini. It was a very good price i have to admit. Someone else has offered her 1200.

Oh well.


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## pedg (Apr 11, 2017)

Benjijames28 said:


> Lost out on it.
> 
> The girl has had a better offer. She accepted an offer of 1000 pounds from me for the rocket machine and mazzer mini. It was a very good price i have to admit. Someone else has offered her 1200.
> 
> Oh well.


Ya snooze ya loose!

They'll be other stuff come up. This package obviously wasn't for you!


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## PHB1969 (Dec 26, 2016)

Just picked up an expobar dual leva as an upgrade to a Gaggia classic. Been very impressed with it so far after 3 days. Frightened myself today when it turned itself off due to low water...!


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## PHB1969 (Dec 26, 2016)

....noticed I need to change my signature...


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

PHB1969 said:


> Just picked up an expobar dual leva as an upgrade to a Gaggia classic. Been very impressed with it so far after 3 days. Frightened myself today when it turned itself off due to low water...!


Interested in your progress with your new machine.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

PHB1969 said:


> ....noticed I need to change my signature...


Although, Expobar Dual Leva makes it sound like a two group lever machine, ha ha!


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

DoubleShot said:


> Although, Expobar Dual Leva makes it sound like a two group lever machine, ha ha!


.... and Brewtus or Brutus sounds so...... well..... "hard"


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## PHB1969 (Dec 26, 2016)

Benjijames28 said:


> Interested in your progress with your new machine.


So....limited use so far...think it has been 8 or 9 shots over 2 days, and won't be any more until the weekend as I'm stacked this week. 3 milk based drinks other americanos.

2 with naked pf, others with double basket, twin spout.......

double basket is VST and I'm using 17g. Naked is a triple, I'm using 20.5g. Using a distribution tool (Chinese clone).

ive not been weighing output yet but have measured into measuring shot glasses, so not 100% setup and repeatable (made more problematic by ending a batch and starting a new batch of beans partway through).

So far, the flavour of the espresso is sweeter than that of my outgoing Gaggia classic. The resulting pucks seemed more consistent with less evidence of channeling (but I have taken to a bit of WDT now that I didn't on the Gaggia). I was wary of the naked pf knowing that they can result in an unwelcome mess.....1st attempt (beginners luck?) was impressive, uniform delivery of coffee from the outer edges to the centre with a single flow from the centre. My 2nd attempt a day later was acceptable but built from the edge, developed 3 "tails" which combined into a single flow.

All drinks have a fuller flavour (most have been using Rave - the Italian Job which is a blend but quite dark roast) and a deeper range of tastes - more nutty....

Steaming...night and day from the Gaggia. Great foaming ability...and quickly compared to the Gaggia. I'm not an expert and think I get some decent foam mixed with cappuccino fluff. I've not managed latte art (ever with anything) unless your take on art is "modern"...!!

My "home customers" endorse the improvement (unless they are humouring me).

i will spend some time measuring and weighing this weekend and if there is anything specific you want to ask, please do so - I'm no expert but happy to share my experiences (and be corrected).

I've ordered a cafelat silicone group head gasket as the rubber one was slightly hard....should arrive this week and go straight in (taken rubber one and shower screen out already). Bought a wemo to turn on remotely to allow it to warm up (c20 -30 mins). Have also changed the feet to drop the height about 2 cm. They are also easier to move the machine on....slides now...great for filling up.

Finally, it looks good.....it's got knobs and dials (2 of them!!), its solid and shiny....


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## PHB1969 (Dec 26, 2016)

Currently resisting upgraditus telling myself I don't need a teflon coated ims shower screen (which is black, so it must be good...!).....

but have ordered a magnetic kitchen timer which will make shot timing easier...


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## PHB1969 (Dec 26, 2016)

Benjijames28 said:


> Interested in your progress with your new machine.


....another point I should have mentioned is like you, I'm really taken by the rocket styling, I nearly pulled the trigger on a new appartmento because of looks and size. I then had the chance of a 2 year old expobar for a decent price which made my mind up for me. I guess, it's like modern cars....you can't really buy a bad one....they will all do the legal limit, they all have airbags etc etc, just some look better than others, some are slightly quicker, some more economical AND beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I've looked at many reviews and I haven't read one that says stay away from machine A or machine B, at this price they all seem capable.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

PHB1969 said:


> ....another point I should have mentioned is like you, I'm really taken by the rocket styling, I nearly pulled the trigger on a new appartmento because of looks and size. I then had the chance of a 2 year old expobar for a decent price which made my mind up for me. I guess, it's like modern cars....you can't really buy a bad one....they will all do the legal limit, they all have airbags etc etc, just some look better than others, some are slightly quicker, some more economical AND beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I've looked at many reviews and I haven't read one that says stay away from machine A or machine B, at this price they all seem capable.


Totally agree with this. Yet you still get folk pontificating about X and Y - it's just coffee and hot water! Grinders on the other hand....


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## wilse (Nov 14, 2013)

PHB1969 said:


> Currently resisting upgraditus telling myself I don't need a teflon coated ims shower screen (which is black, so it must be good...!).....
> 
> but have ordered a magnetic kitchen timer which will make shot timing easier...


You DON'T need the screen!










I've been weighing for the last year, but yesterday, after not securing the PF and making a great bloody mess I stopped using them... OK truth is they got drenched and now don't work properly... anyway, the result was as good as normal, as I think I can judge the quantities.

I like Suarez from Rave, but recently tried their Signature offering and was surprised how good it was... I always thought it was going to be run-of-the-mill... but it's not.

I make a few espresso's a day and occasional white, and haven't looked back since my Gaggia days.

I'm using a two hole tip for steaming, it's very quick, tried the four hole, but too difficult for me.

Keep practising.


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## PHB1969 (Dec 26, 2016)

New 8.0mm cafelat red group head gasket installed. Pf locks at 6 o clock rather than previous 7 o clock.

Will get some use tomorrow.


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

I have done loads f research now, and think i understand these different types of machines.

It's going to be more than possible to get great coffee from a hx machine, maybe even better coffee as the slight fluctuations in brew temp might produce different tasting cups. The problem is consistency, a dual boiler machine would be much easier for a newbie like me to get results on.


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## pedg (Apr 11, 2017)

Benjijames28 said:


> I have done loads f research now, and think i understand these different types of machines.
> 
> It's going to be more than possible to get great coffee from a hx machine, maybe even better coffee as the slight fluctuations in brew temp might produce different tasting cups. The problem is consistency, a dual boiler machine would be much easier for a newbie like me to get results on.


There's much more to it than the machine. You'll get great, consistently good coffee with either a HX or DB, as long as you perfect your technique for that kind of machine AND (more importantly) everything else is consistent. I would argue that a DB is more forgiving of bad technique, so if simply making coffee is what your after, go DB. If you like to 'get it right' and are prepared to spend a bit of time perfecting a good technique, I'd say either or.

"So the question is, which is better?

Shouldn't double boilers be better with a consistent and accurate temperature control? To answer that, we must first understand the history of the heating system and the science of coffee.

Double boilers were invented later than heat exchangers, and Italian manufacturers initially created it for American cafes. As the Americans were expanding quickly around the nation and globally, and they are always lack of trained baristas. The Americans told the Italian makers of their problem, that they need the machine to make consistent shots between amateur baristas, and the double boiler was invented. Double boilers soon became popular among the English-speaking nations, or nations with a huge presence of American-style cafes, that includes Britain, Australia and Singapore. Big cafes like Starbucks were using them, and name of the brands doing Double Boilers soon became popular globally.

In some heat exchangers machines, they are equipped with a PID temperature controller and regulator. Some will ask whether adding a PID works or is it useful in a heat exchanger. It does work by controlling the temperature of the steam boiler, which in turn influence how hot is the heat exchanger rod in the boiler. Raising or declining the temperature does have an impact on the water used for brewing. The deadband of temperature swing in a PID is also a lot more stable than the regular pressurestat controller."

http://www.finecoffeecompany.com/double-boiler-versus-heat-exchanger/

It's more than likely when it comes to consistency in the cup that everything else (grind, tamping, water quality, coffee bean quality) will have a larger effect than whether you go HX or DB.

I had a Sage DTP (£300 thermoblock) and was getting very good, consistent espresso out of that which, in the cup i was very happy with. The biggest problem was workflow, and when I wanted to steam milk or make multiple beverages it was a mission!!

Are you leaning towards a DB?

The Profitec 700 (IMO) is the best value DB going. You get the Rotary pump as well, Stainless boilers, PID, and would be a great option if you are planning on keeping the same setup for a long time. I know it's possibly slightly over budget but reckon it'll be worth the stretch.

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/profitec-700-dual-boiler.html

Have you been to BB to have a look?


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

Will be going to bb at some point. I love the pro 700, right now it's the dB i want. If i go heat exchanger it will be rocket appartmento.

Grinder i want a Eureka 75e. So up to 3k worth of gear. It's a big investment but premium desirable products retain value, so not end of world.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

700 and 75e - sounds a fantastic setup.

Will be very interesting to see if seeing things in the flesh changes your mind


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Benjijames28 said:


> Will be going to bb at some point. I love the pro 700, right now it's the dB i want. If i go heat exchanger it will be rocket appartmento.
> 
> Grinder i want a Eureka 75e. So up to 3k worth of gear. It's a big investment but premium desirable products retain value, so not end of world.


I like this. This was the setup I wanted, but I only managed to get the Pro 700. Unfortunately for me, my kitchen is incompatible with the size of the 75e, so I had to resort to the Pro T64, which is not a bad machine at all, but requires a 5-6g purge if operated as per factory designed.


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

I keep having second thoughts about my set up. It all comes down to budget and what i can justify to myself on a coffee set up.

We already established i will get great coffee from both a rocket appartmento hx and a pro 700 dual boiler. The temp stability will be more forgiving and consistent on the dual boiler which is a big appeal, but I'm not sure its worth almost double the cost.

For the price of the dual boiler i could buy a high end grinder and a hx rocket. Big difference.

Appartmento and Eureka 75e as a set up. Add a few extras like vst baskets and bottomless portafilter, maybe a distribution tool and a good tamper... Perfect set up for a beginner?

Maybe one day sell the rocket and upgrade to a dual boiler if I'm not getting what i want from the rocket


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

These indecisions could easily evaporate within 10 mins of being in BB Benji.

There's nothing like being in front of the kit, actually using it, with an experience attentive operator stood next to you - something all the wisdom on this forum can't compete with.

Get booked in, get yourself up/down there and enjoy ;-)


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I think my life savings could easily evaporate within 10 mins of being in BB Kenny.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

hotmetal said:


> I think my life savings could easily evaporate within 10 mins of being in BB Kenny.


Too true


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

hotmetal said:


> I think my life savings could easily evaporate within 10 mins of being in BB Kenny.


Yeah but all you'll have is - a lined shot glass and a Uk-Euro Plug adaptor!!!! ;-)


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

It's a two hour drive lol. I don't know if i can resist if i drive all that way and don't buy


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Drewster have you been peeking at my bank statements again?


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## pedg (Apr 11, 2017)

I'd say HX and a better grinder would be a good call!











Benjijames28 said:


> ... right now it's the dB i want. If i go heat exchanger it will be rocket appartmento.


Why definitely the Rocket as HX, just out of interest, and not the ECM Barista (HX) or even the Expobar Leva Dual Boiler @£1185? The Expobar is quite compact as well for a DB, and has PID and all the rest of it that you wanted?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

It was 2.5 hour drive for me - I hadn't been that excited since Christmas 1976


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Benjijames28 said:


> It's a two hour drive lol. I don't know if i can resist if i drive all that way and don't buy


Same for me. And I've been there trice. Every trip was worth the while. Take time off, and go for it. You won't regret it.


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## PHB1969 (Dec 26, 2016)

kennyboy993 said:


> It was 2.5 hour drive for me - I hadn't been that excited since Christmas 1976


So why 1976...what did Santa bring?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Ha - technical lego sports car, best day of my life!


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> Ha - technical lego sports car, best day of my life!


Oh wow! What a fab thing to get (I had to make do with an orange and a walnut)!


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Ha ha life was hard wasn't it Mildred


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

Ok space wise i think a rocket appartmento is my best option. As much as i love all the dual boilers, they may have to wait until I've got my own gaff.

Now i need to decide on a grinder. Again space may play a factor. I will start a new thread lol.


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## PHB1969 (Dec 26, 2016)

kennyboy993 said:


> Ha - technical lego sports car, best day of my life!


Well done...I wish I could remember what I got....lol


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

PHB1969 said:


> Well done...I wish I could remember what I got....lol


I wish I could remember.... when was it again..... 1976.....

(Actually I do remember the very hot summer-but even that may be just because it is always mentioned whenever we have 2 days sunshine)


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## PHB1969 (Dec 26, 2016)

PHB1969 said:


> Currently resisting upgraditus telling myself I don't need a teflon coated ims shower screen (which is black, so it must be good...!).....
> 
> but have ordered a magnetic kitchen timer which will make shot timing easier...


i gave in....teflon coated IMS shower screen ordered...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

PHB1969 said:


> i gave in....teflon coated IMS shower screen ordered...


From torr?


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## PHB1969 (Dec 26, 2016)

coffeechap said:


> From torr?


The Espresso Shop - http://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/en/IMS-E61-PTFE-Coated-Precision-Shower-Screen-60mm----E61200TC/m-2731.aspx


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

PHB1969 said:


> i gave in....teflon coated IMS shower screen ordered...


Good on you! Watch those grinds just fall off after pulling a shot ;-)


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