# EK43 Titus Alignment tool



## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Thought I'd start a new thread on the Titus alignment tool.

I ordered the alignment tool direct from Frank at Titus at 10:35pm, the tool was delivered at 11am the next day, pretty impressive. With 5% paypal fee it cost €156.18 with vat and delivery.

if you're after one drop him an email [email protected].






plan to have a play with it this weekend.

being unable to do a side by side comparison, I'm pondering how best to compare before and after.....


Taste - obvious but is going to be subjective

Sieves - I've got the full Kruve set, but don't underestimate how lazy I am

Ext % - dial in before and hit it with the VST, dial in afterwards and compare

Sound - check the before and after chirp chirp


no doubt will end up doing a mixture of these depending on how lazy I feel and/or how much I'm being attacked by the toddler


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Are you planning on testing across different brew methods/settings? I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts on the tool and also keen to rent/buy it off you once you're all aligned and ready to rock.


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## MatBat (Feb 15, 2017)

Phobic said:


> Thought I'd start a new thread on the Titus alignment tool.
> 
> I ordered the alignment tool direct from Frank at Titus at 10:35pm, the tool was delivered at 11am the next day, pretty impressive. With 5% paypal fee it cost €156.18 with vat and delivery.
> 
> if you're after one drop him an email [email protected].


the grind distribution has already been tested by Socratic Coffee so that may save you some time!


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Frank was showing this at the London Coffee Festival along with other bits of kit. He's remarkable.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

unoll said:


> Are you planning on testing across different brew methods/settings? I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts on the tool and also keen to rent/buy it off you once you're all aligned and ready to rock.


yes will test on filter and spro.

might look at some charity donation rental scheme maybe once I've finished playing with it


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

MatBat said:


> the grind distribution has already been tested by Socratic Coffee so that may save you some time!


it's more to test it on my machine, I've done the felt tip alignment, think it could be better. Interested to see how good it was and if I can improve it with this tool.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Phobic said:


> yes will test on filter and spro.
> 
> might look at some charity donation rental scheme maybe once I've finished playing with it


Definitely be up for charity donation rental. I thought the Stroke Association raffle thing was an excellent idea.

I'm still not entirely sure what it is we're aligning


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

fatboyslim said:


> I'm still not entirely sure what it is we're aligning











we're aligning the god of burrs, more specifically making sure that the stationary burr is perfectly parallel with the rotating shaft, that way the rotating burr will be an equal distance away from the stationary burr - this means consistent grind size - and the god of burrs gives us the tasty as a reward!


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

And, as Frank said, in a busy cafe being able to readily align the god of burrs is a considerable benefit.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

I managed to get use of one of these contraptions a few weeks ago, having previously done the marker pen alignment. Opened her up, attached the device and found that it was absolutely bang-on level all the way round. Closed it up again. Job done


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Is everyone else using a torque wrench to tighten burr screws up? Worth doing as you can drive yourself mad if you need to do several shims and don't have the screws evenly tightened.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

right round 1 to the EK, I F*cking hate doing alignment, I'd forgotten what a PITA it is!

the tool is pretty good, takes the guess work out, I always found the marker method a bit hit and miss.

started off by measuring the enclosure that the static burr sits on, as I'd imagined there was a big variance around the diameter, and by big I mean 300 microns (0.3mm).

I then checked the burr itself with a caliper, that showed pretty much no variance to ~5 microns.

it took me about 4 hours of shimming, much swearing, and resulted in the cat developing a fear of coming into the kitchen. The shim set that comes with the kit is great, everything that you need to do the job, I just chopped bits off using a pair of clippers.

need to work on the best technique though, I started off by recording the variance at 6 points and then put appropriate sized shims in, put it back together but it was all over the place e.g. point 1 was 200 microns under, I put in a 200 micron shin and that point became 100 microns over - I'm guessing that the collective shims altered a wider range that Id thought.

next tried focusing on the point with the largest deviation, that make for a more controlled change, however also meant I had to go back and repeat the same process many times. You can finely tweak by tightening the screws a little more or less. @unoll yes a torque wrench would have helped I think.

4 hours later.....I've got it to 0-5 micron variance max all the way round

would be good to hear any tips and tricks from people.

I need to check the moving burr as well however last time I aligned I checked and it was pretty much bang on, need to double check it tomorrow.

now the results! I spent all afternoon doing it and it was too late to drink any coffee - FML

pulled 2 cheeky decafs, instantly noticed that the grind was much fluffier. As expected I need to redial in however could notice an instant improvement even though I don't drink much decaf.

will have some fun tomorrow seeing what the results are really like.

And before anyone asks, not ready to loan it out just yet, let me make sure everything sorted 1st


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Great feedback @Phobic , it'll be interesting to hear of you're tasting much of a difference, hopefully all the effort will be worth it. Is the same tool used for the rotating burr?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

unoll said:


> Great feedback @Phobic , it'll be interesting to hear of you're tasting much of a difference, hopefully all the effort will be worth it. Is the same tool used for the rotating burr?


I can already see more clarity in the decaf even though it's not dialed in properly so expect a decent improvement but will report back once I've tested.

I think the caliper would be best for the rotating burr, can't see a way you can use this tool for it.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Phobic said:


> I think the caliper would be best for the rotating burr, can't see a way you can use this tool for it.


Ah thought that might be the case. Glad to hear you're having fun (or at least getting the ek aligned better). Did you measure how far out you were from just the pen technique?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I'm a geek and like fiddling but didn't find today fun tbh, it was frustrating and I got bored of it and wanted to give up, but I stuck with it and persevered!

4 hours is a long time when you had the boredom threshold of a 3 year old.

I did measure the pen technique but didn't record it, I only remember thinking that I was way out - not sure if that's because I wasn't very good in the 1st place or if it had drifted out of alignment over time. Gut feel is I wasn't that good.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

It's good you persevered. I've lost track of how many hours I've spent on the pen technique although it's been worth it.

Just think, once you splash out on the gorilla burrs, you'll have to do it all again ?


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Hey @Phobic, have you seen this? Might come in handy


__
http://instagr.am/p/BVsod0mgxH6/


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

unoll said:


> Hey @Phobic, have you seen this? Might come in handy
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BVsod0mgxH6/


not too sure what he's doing, looks like 2 burrs together with not much variation as they are rotated. bit of a slip at the end but when pushed together they look fine to me


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

To me it looks like he's checking the flatness of the burr surfaces which contact the grinder body. I guess as long as the surface they're sat on is fairly flat it probably means you can do some shimming before the burrs are mounted. I would've thought it'd be better to do one burr at a time though.

I guess if the burrs are shimmed before mounting; you can check the body and just tighten body bolts to make things are flat before mounting burrs. Might result in less effort overall. When I get the chance I'll have to time it?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

unoll said:


> To me it looks like he's checking the flatness of the burr surfaces which contact the grinder body. I guess as long as the surface they're sat on is fairly flat it probably means you can do some shimming before the burrs are mounted. I would've thought it'd be better to do one burr at a time though.
> 
> I guess if the burrs are shimmed before mounting; you can check the body and just tighten body bolts to make things are flat before mounting burrs. Might result in less effort overall. When I get the chance I'll have to time it


it's a strange way to do it if that's what he's doing, if you want to check the burr flatness against the body then better to check them separately, if you do them together then how do you know which is out?

they don't look like OEM burrs to me, wonder what they are.

makes me want to get an instagram account to ask him!


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

just spotted I posted this in the wrong thread, oops!



> bit of an interim update from me, I was out most of sat and then we had a power cut on Sunday so not had chance to sample as much as I would have liked.
> 
> however the few cups I've had have been bloody impressive, I need to re-dial in as expected, it's already clear though that there's a lot more clarity & sweetness.
> 
> ...


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## onluxtex (Nov 18, 2015)

not so nice like the Titus one, but anyway, I did it myself. Front and rear are same size, it´s from the photo









Sorry, wrong thread, may be the mods can shift it. Thanks.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

right tool going out to @fatboyslim tomorrow (hopefully), given he asked 1st in the other thread. As predicted I just couldn't bring myself to do it again! I'll have a look again in a few weeks to see if the alignment's changed at all, not sure how frequently you need to do it...

suggest £10 donation per week to the charity of your choice.

@unoll if you still want to loan it can you drop fatboy and me your address in a PM please, he can send it straight over to you when he's done.

I've kept the shims as there aren't that many of them, tin foil should work just fine though so wouldn't suggest going and buying anything specific.

it's fine to use a small hammer to tap in the metal block, just try not to whack it too hard - more because you might damage your grinder than anything else.

would be interesting on seeing your before and after measurements, and what difference you can taste when you've finished!

I think I'll have a quick go at centering the rotating burr this week if I can find time.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Phobic said:


> right tool going out to @fatboyslim tomorrow (hopefully), given he asked 1st in the other thread. As predicted I just couldn't bring myself to do it again! I'll have a look again in a few weeks to see if the alignment's changed at all, not sure how frequently you need to do it...
> 
> suggest £10 donation per week to the charity of your choice.
> 
> ...


Sounds good to me @Phobic, that's very kind and much appreciated. @fatboyslim already has my address from lsol but I'll send you it as well. Do you have a preferred charity? Do you get the feeling your coffee has improved as a result of using it?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

you can pick your own favorite charity.

coffee has certainly improved, very noticeable to me.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Phobic said:


> you can pick your own favorite charity.
> 
> coffee has certainly improved, very noticeable to me.


Time to put up, let's hear your burrs chirp ?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I'll confess that i recorded a before and after, but couldn't really tell a difference in sound....

maybe I'm getting old


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Maybe we should have an EK43 chirp-off thread


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

fluffles said:


> Maybe we should have an EK43 chirp-off thread


I feel like that would have a very very selective audience. Very niche!

@Phobic does the alignment tool come with instructions/guide? I may have to call you up to ask what the flips I'm suppose to do!


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

there's a video guide, I personally found it easier to pop the titus tool off when putting shims in, rather than fiddle around trying to squeeze them underneath the burr with it attached.






will PM you my number if you want to talk through though - or more likely if you need someone to sympathise with you for the pain you're about to go through









only other thing I forgot to mention, the screw and slide fitting isn't the strongest, no doubt that's the part that @Xpenno broke on his. Just be gentle with it, try not to over tighten and it should be fine.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

I would probably like to borrow it at some point but shall leave it a while as there are a number of things I want to do and it will probably be autumn before I get around to them.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

more than welcome to dan.

not sure if my browser is bugging out but the video I posted isn't showing for me, here's the link just in case


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

@Phobic tool received, thanks very much but oh my goodness! The faff-factor is almost immeasurable! I'll just try to get it done this afternoon even if it takes all afternoon.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

enjoy your own personal hell!

it's worth it though, just think about the best tasting coffee you're ever made as the prize!


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

So what method/s are now considered best for aligning the moving burr? Feeler gauge or something else suitable for the gap around the edge but what about the other plane? I've not really seen a proper exlanation of the method of checking this or aligning. Is it a case of removing the bag holder and somehow measuring the gap between the burrs with vernier calipers, rotating and measuring again then taking apart, putting back together and shimming or what? I'd also like to measure to make sure the shaft angle and housing etc are spot on so shall have to work out how to measure all that at some point.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

have seen a few techniques used, I'm going to try feeler gauge to center it, then use calipers + shims. though when I last checked it a while ago I seem to remember that it was pretty much bang on. I'm guessing that the manufacturing tolerances are less of an issue for the rotating burr. we notice it more for the stationary as it's the tolerances of the case, screws & fittings that cause the alignment issues.

It might still be best to check it in place with feeler gauges through the hopper hole once done - I'm thinking that you can rotate it with a screwdriver and then mark any deviation with a white board marker


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I don't know if I've even got it set-up right. It seems a faff just getting all the holding screws on the tool tightened up.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

yes that looks right, rotate it to the high point, it's a bit faffy and you need to be careful you don't trap the probe, only rotate it 1 direction. then when you've roughly found it, stick the screw in the middle and turn it until you get to zero on the dial.

then you can rotate and look at the delta all around.

pick the 3 lowest points at roughly 90, 180, and 270 degrees, note the negative delta and start shimming.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Phobic said:


> yes that looks right, rotate it to the high point, it's a bit faffy and you need to be careful you don't trap the probe, only rotate it 1 direction. then when you've roughly found it, stick the screw in the middle and turn it until you get to zero on the dial.
> 
> then you can rotate and look at the delta all around.
> 
> pick the 3 lowest points at roughly 90, 180, and 270 degrees, note the negative delta and start shimming.


 @Phobic I've got it to within about 6 microns delta from lowest to highest. Is that good enough? I can't help but feel another shim would throw the whole thing off.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

that's about as good as I managed before I got bored of it.

you'll notice a great difference in taste without a doubt.

I think you could get it spot on but will take more fiddling because I think you're right, another shim and you'll need to move things about.

have you tried tightening the screws a bit more, you get get ~5 micron change doing that, might be enough....


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Phobic said:


> that's about as good as I managed before I got bored of it.
> 
> you'll notice a great difference in taste without a doubt.
> 
> ...


I can't consistently get the tool back on after making an adjustment. There must be a better way. I make an adjustment but then can't trust the readings after reattaching the tool.

(probably best to have our discussion hear to help others when they get it).


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

I'm wondering if I did it right now, as I put I it on and it was dead level all the way round. Sounds unlikely having read this thread...


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

@fluffles it might've been simply bottomed out ie. pressing so hard on the burr surface that it reached it's mechanical stop and was showing no movement at all (or should I say only movement in one direction). I've done this many times when checking assemblies, first you're chuffed and then realise your mistake. Easiest way to check this is push on the surface around the DTI, or gently try moving the tip of the DTI, this way you should see the dial / read out move in both directions and know for sure you still have some wiggle room on the tip.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I had a chat with fatboy on the phone to explain how I did it but thought it worth outlining the steps to help others

1. Tap it on with a hammer as far down as it will go

2. Put the gauge on with the tip in the center, you won't be able to angle it out yet as the block is hammered in too deep

3. Screw in the center screw, you can use this as a very fine control to lift the gauge to the right height

4. gradually turn the center screw and at the same time angle the dial out until the dial pin rests on the top teeth of the burr about 2-3mm from the edge. lock it off with the gauge screw (it's a bit flimsy so don't over tighten it). You're aiming to have this as you zero point on the dial as you're measuring deviation

5. Rotate the gauge counter-clockwise until you find the highest point of the burr, mark it with a whiteboard marker - it won't turn clockwise without trapping the pin

6. Reset this highest point to zero on the gauge using the above steps - you might need to use the hammer and screw again

7. Now you can turn the gauge round, you're looking for negative deviations as that's what you can shim up to be level with the zero. I found picking 3 points worked best for me, the highest deviation + 2 other points at either side equidistant to the zero point is what I went with (they happened to be at right angles to each other and the zero point, I guess it makes sense for the high point and low point to be opposite each other but that might not be the case for everyone)

8. Mark the locations with a white board marker, and their deviation - my highest was ~300 microns

9. Shim it, but note that shimming to the exact number you recorded won't work, the burr is very rigid so when you shim the high point it effects a much wider area. I think I ended up shimming exactly to the highest point and a little under on the others. Foil is ~20 microns for info, and each point on the gauge is 10 microns

10. Repeat all the steps above for ~4 hours or until you turn to the bottle of whiskey you've been saving for a special occasion, whichever comes 1st

11. I managed to get it down to ~5 micron difference, that's halfway between zero and the 1st click on the dial - at that point how hard you screw the burr in will be having an effect. I found I could get about a 5 micron change by screwing in harder of softer

this is fiddly painful work but it's really worth the effort, you'll notice a marked improvement in clarity, well worth doing it, just bite the bullet, live through the pain, drink the whiskey, and think about the end result!!


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

This is where I've got to, you can see the deviation marked around the edge. My plan would be to shim the area around 0.

Should be easier to reattach the tool if I can replicate some of those readings after shimming (obviously not on the side I've just shimmed)

@Phobic seem reasonable? Great instructions. I will try to film some footage later.









Edit: got it to within 10 microns. Will try one more shim.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

looks good, a few more points than I needed but a pretty similar method, gauge looks setup just like I had it, but no screw in the center?

other thing I forgot to mention, try to make sure you're putting the burr in exactly the same place each time you take it out as well as there's a fair bit of play with the screws, both lateral and rotational


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Got it to within 9 and gave up for today. Reassembled grinder and I get chirpy noise at finest setting. Not sure if I've made it better or worse quite frankly.

Using foil is hard work.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

getting there.

you can set where the chirping noise comes in by altering the knobs rotation with the allen screw, turn it with the main center screw, back off 10 degrees, then re-screw in the allen screws.

I couldn't really tell a difference with sound myself.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Phobic said:


> getting there.
> 
> you can set where the chirping noise comes in by altering the knobs rotation with the allen screw, turn it with the main center screw, back off 10 degrees, then re-screw in the allen screws.
> 
> I couldn't really tell a difference with sound myself.


what do the included shims look like just to give myself an idea. I presume they shim the outer part of the burr?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

fatboyslim said:


> what do the included shims look like just to give myself an idea. I presume they shim the outer part of the burr?


they look like feeler gauges cut in half, nothing scientific about them, just different thicknesses of metal that you have to cut to size.

I've shimmed with foil before and it's probably easier to use it to be honest particularly if you have calipers to measure.

so yes shim the outer part of the burr, if you turn the burr upside down you can see a lip round the edge, that's where you're shimming.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Phobic said:


> they look like feeler gauges cut in half, nothing scientific about them, just different thicknesses of metal that you have to cut to size.
> 
> I've shimmed with foil before and it's probably easier to use it to be honest particularly if you have calipers to measure.
> 
> so yes shim the outer part of the burr, if you turn the burr upside down you can see a lip round the edge, that's where you're shimming.


Yep that's what I thought. Just wanted to check. Thanks


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Something seems slightly off with my espressos since messing around with alignment.

I would subjectively say I've made it worse. I will have to have another play


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

don't forget you'll need to redial everything in so forget your previous settings for whatever bean you're using.

what deviation did you manage to get it down to?


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Phobic said:


> don't forget you'll need to redial everything in so forget your previous settings for whatever bean you're using.
> 
> what deviation did you manage to get it down to?


Still only 9 microns but I have tomorrow off work so I will have another go. Yes I appreciate I will need to recalibrate the adjustment knob.

I hope once I've got it all sorted I can just leave it forever


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

You may have improved the alignment of the stationary burr in relation to the chassis, but I would imagine it is possible that you've made it worse in relation to the moving burr unless you have taken steps to align that as well? Just a thought...


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

fluffles said:


> You may have improved the alignment of the stationary burr in relation to the chassis, but I would imagine it is possible that you've made it worse in relation to the moving burr unless you have taken steps to align that as well? Just a thought...


Oh god, what have I got myself into. What's the preferred method to align moving burr? I don't really see what I can adjust or shim for the moving burr.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

fatboyslim said:


> Oh god, what have I got myself into. What's the preferred method to align moving burr? I don't really see what I can adjust or shim for the moving burr.


I don't know of any easy way of doing this, in which case I would suggest the old fashioned whiteboard marker technique. Would at least be interesting to see how much of the marker gets wiped away now you've aligned the stationary burr


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

fatboyslim said:


> Still only 9 microns but I have tomorrow off work so I will have another go. Yes I appreciate I will need to recalibrate the adjustment knob.
> 
> I hope once I've got it all sorted I can just leave it forever


if you mean 9 points on the dial that's 90 microns I think.

don't forget the EK peaks at ~260 microns, so 90 microns is pretty high, I think you'll need to get it better than that ideally....









concentrate on the stationary burr 1st, then look at the rotating, you can measure that with calipars and/or use feeler gauges when it's in place to see if you need to worry about aligning it - the stationary is the biggest culprit though, you don't see much talk about needing to align it


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Just to quickly chip in. Using the good ol whiteboard trick I found i had to work on both burrs. My prebreaker must have been a Friday afternoon job.

@fatboyslim ; are you making sure the bolts are all tightened up the same every time? 3Nm should do it.

I recently got a bag of a2 m5×10 torx pan head screws. The plan is to swap out the rubbish flathead screws as it's difficult to get consistent tightness. It's a bag of 50 so I'm happy to send a few your way, although probs best I experiment with them first.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Good tip on the bolt change out, apparently they fit slot ones to pass some sort of food certification. Allen / torx hold more powder in the slots and its less hygienic.

What would make it even better is if you had a torque wrench to do up all the bolts to the same torque (this is what I've done on the ZR on all bolts to keep consistency). This especially makes sense if you are shimming, as the shims might compress to some degree (although you'd probably need to have large differences and massive torque values to see significant differences).

Also, I'm happy to help out in alignment if you're around the Surrey area and want to pop in.

T.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Funny that the rule relates to retention of coffee. I've always found that flatheads hold onto loads of coffee.

My other thinking with torx was that they present a more consistent surface to the coffee. My gut feeling is that flathead screws angled to the centre will have an effect on how the coffee grinds depending on the angle ( which is difficult to get the same consistently). A torx bolt would seem to more or less remove this issue. I guess it'll have to remain a theory as I have nowhere near enough patience to research it.


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## Microlot (Jun 22, 2017)

fatboyslim said:


> Oh god, what have I got myself into. What's the preferred method to align moving burr? I don't really see what I can adjust or shim for the moving burr.


It´s best to send the moving burr with the carrier to titus-grinding,the only way to align it perfectly is on a lathe machine.


__
http://instagr.am/p/BSy4dUiBQxd/

Best regards,Thomas


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

agree on the torque points, remember as well that even without a torque wrench you can use the alignment tool to check the burr, so you can address shim compression and maintain a degree of consistency.

I was effectively using the alignment tool to measure torque indirectly.

I think next time though that I'll buy a torque wrench and change the screws out - the holes in the burrs retain tons of grinds so not sure it makes a lot of difference


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Microlot said:


> It´s best to send the moving burr with the carrier to titus-grinding,the only way to align it perfectly is on a lathe machine.
> 
> 
> __
> ...


I did ask Frank ( @Terranova )about this, his view is



> When you send some burr mounts / burr carrier we will just revise them if the run out is bigger than 0,02mm.


Not something he sees a lot because



> the burr carrier is made out of one part


Frank also provided some kind advise in another thread on alignment



> You guys should calculate the angle, so if the dial indicator shows a difference between highest and lowest point of lets say 80 micron, an 80 micron shimm would be too thick to compensate it.


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## Microlot (Jun 22, 2017)

@Phobic

Hi there,

my EKK was aligned by the man himself,he told me it takes quite some experience to get this alignment thing done,no easy story for every first time aligner.

The strange thing to me is that 9 micron,0,009m,is far better than most EKs I know,usually the run out is between 0,01-0,02mm,and even with 0,02mm it should be no problem to extract a good result.

Apologies for entering this thread,I´m from Germany,would like to ask some things concerning the decent espresso story and having a look into the buy/sell area.

Do not want to achieve my 5 posts with really boring stuff .

Best regards,Thomas


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Hmm, I have three friends with lathes and the skills to do this but they'll think I'm nuts if I ask them. Having said that one is into his coffee but he's also the furthest away. Regarding the burr bolts, I might just have some ex Honda F1 titanium torx machine screws in that size!


----------



## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Microlot said:


> @Phobic
> 
> Hi there,
> 
> ...


that's great feedback Thomas thanks, good of you to join in the discussion









I'm very happy that I managed to hit 5 microns then as a 1st timer, though I have to confess I think I could have done better if I hadn't got bored of it!


----------



## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Hello

Curious about the Titus gauge, but I have a question:

The dial, in the photographs I have seen, states a resolution of 0.01mm.

How can one align the burrs with an accuracy measured in microns

at this resolution.

[ 1 micron = 0.001mm ]

Thanks


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

I am slightly puzzled as to why you guys are using a lever type gauge rather than a plunger type. This measures the displacement directly and there is no need to allow for the angle of the lever.

Here is a photo of the setup I used to check the alignment of the lower burr in my Rossi RR45 in an attempt to exorcise the chirping at fine grind levels. I measured at three points only, on the flats adjacent to the three towers.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

That's just the resolution, curious what the accuracy is considering this looks like a very cheap offshore copy of a Mitutoyo 513-404E. Accuracy on those is +/-8um, so even if you had a genuine one you'd really be pushing it to trust anything better than 10um.

Another thing to consider is the correct way to use these is with the stylus set close to parallel to the body of the DTI. If you introduce other angles on the stylus you should recalculate readings based on trygonometric functions.

Overall the main thing to remember is that you are aiming to get a steady reading along the entire burr perimeter, so you are using the DTI more like a comparator, rather than an absolute readout device (which is probably why an el cheapo DTI works anyway).

T.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

JKK said:


> Hello
> 
> Curious about the Titus gauge, but I have a question:
> 
> ...


Yes so my burrs are 90 microns not 9


----------



## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

dsc said:


> That's just the resolution, curious what the accuracy is considering this looks like a very cheap offshore copy of a Mitutoyo 513-404E. Accuracy on those is +/-8um, so even if you had a genuine one you'd really be pushing it to trust anything better than 10um.
> 
> Another thing to consider is the correct way to use these is with the stylus set close to parallel to the body of the DTI. If you introduce other angles on the stylus you should recalculate readings based on trygonometric functions.
> 
> ...


the accuracy of the gauge and technique used might not be great, I think you're right, we're using it as a comparator in this case, it's the end result that we're after, it's good enough to make significant improvement in taste, which is what matters.

when we talk about numbers it's all relative rather than absolute measurements, Fatboy is showing 0.09mm (90 micron) delta on the dial, I was able to get it down to under 0.01mm (10 micron), so more pain for fatboy getting it lower









@Norvin the plunger dial might very well be a better solution, I don't know a great deal about them, how to use/set them up, or how the cost compares. Buying Titus off the shelf is pretty accessible as a layman though.

I can also see the merits of being able to measure (compare?) every point all the way around the burr rather then just measuring 3 places, so I think having something which fastens to the center & rotates is a good idea generally. I'm guessing that Frank has access to the plunger type and choose to go with this set up for a good reason.


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## mazi (Jan 21, 2015)

Phobic said:


> Fatboy is showing 0.9mm (90 micron) delta on the dial, I was able to get it down to under 0.1mm (10 micron)


1mm = 1000 micron so 0.9mm is 900 micron and 0.1mm is 100 micron

So Fatboy's burrs are 0.09mm on dial and yous are 0.01mm then the micron is correct.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

mazi said:


> 1mm = 1000 micron so 0.9mm is 900 micron and 0.1mm is 100 micron


I think he meant 0.09mm and 0.01mm


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Plungers are just a different type, not that much difference in usage, they typically cover a larger range (ie. 1-5mm) but are slightly less accurate, as Norvin mentioned sometimes it's simply easier to use a plunger. Both types can be used to attach them to the shaft and check the entire burr, typically 3 point checks are sufficient enough assuming the burrs are flat.

T.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

fatboyslim said:


> I think he meant 0.09mm and 0.01mm


yes I did, oops!

just adding the below from another thread to keep the info in 1 place.



El carajillo said:


> I think Frank means that the maximum shim point reduces around the periphery getting closer to the high point and also reduces diametrically across to the high point Ie If you fit an 80 micron shim which covers more than just the low point it will raise the burr too much.


that makes sense and aligns with what I saw when I tried to shim too many places at once


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

dsc said:


> Plungers are just a different type, not that much difference in usage, they typically cover a larger range (ie. 1-5mm) but are slightly less accurate, as Norvin mentioned sometimes it's simply easier to use a plunger. Both types can be used to attach them to the shaft and check the entire burr, typically 3 point checks are sufficient enough assuming the burrs are flat.
> 
> T.


 You raise a point that I didn't want to mention in case I was wrong, that is that the burr may not be entirely flat. I got the three points near the screws more or less level, (within 0.01 mm on the dial) but some chirping was still evident. I put board marker on the surface and ran the top burr down until both burrs touched; the marker was rubbed off at a few points across the burr, not adjacent to the mounting points, suggesting that the burr is not flat, perhaps that was the cause of the chirping all along. That is as far as I got as I thought that it was unlikely that the burr wasn't flat and it was a result of poor technique. I was thinking that the next stage for me would be to rub the burr face down on a surface plate (or plate glass) with fine valve grinding paste or using Engineers Blue to check flatness (I don't have access to a surface grinder), but that may blunt the cutting surfaces?

Sorry if this is irrelevant to the discussion, I don't mean to hijack the thread.

The project was put on the back burner with the arrival of a Compak E8 and a Gene Café roaster; plenty there to occupy my interests.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Help! For some reason I can't get the tool set up properly. It now hits the 3 big teeth on the stationary burr on its way round.

Is the needle adjustable? I feel like the angle is too shallow.


----------



## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I don't really know to be honest, someone else on here might know better.

just taking a guess though but the black screw at the bottome inside the hex washer might allow you to adjust the needle position. I'd take it off and have a gentle fiddle to see if that allows you to move it. maybe just losen it off a little rather than unscrew it all the way just in case it all falls apart, might be holding the gauge together....


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

fatboyslim said:


> Help! For some reason I can't get the tool set up properly. It now hits the 3 big teeth on the stationary burr on its way round.
> 
> Is the needle adjustable? I feel like the angle is too shallow.
> 
> View attachment 27885


What do you want to achieve? Just move the whole DTI higher? Or tilt it more? Or slide it more towards the outer edge of the burr? Up / down can be done by loosening the knurled nut (part of the dovetail holder) behind the DTI (on the piece which holds it to the block mountes in the shaft) and readjusting the DTI then tightening the nut again. Tilt is not doable from what I've seen, you can slide the whole thing out more towards the edge by loosening the bolt which holds the dovetail attachment in the block.

I wouldn't touch anything on the DTI itself as it's all factory assembled and shouldn't be adjusted.

T.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I think the problem is that the if he moves the DTI lower via the dove tail it will then catch on the burr because the angle of the needle has moved. he needs to change the angle of the needle on the DTI, I'd have thought that should be doable to allow for recalibration?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

mazi said:


> Just to add look at this and use google translator:
> 
> https://www.kaffeewiki.de/wiki/Alignment_der_Mahlscheiben


some more info from @mazi in another thread which is very useful, I think this is what Frank was trying to explain previously.



> Alignment of grinding wheels
> 
> If the grinding discs are oriented exactly at right angles to the motor axis and thus parallel to each other, a narrower particle distribution is obtained.
> 
> ...


----------



## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Phobic said:


> I think the problem is that the if he moves the DTI lower via the dove tail it will then catch on the burr because the angle of the needle has moved. he needs to change the angle of the needle on the DTI, I'd have thought that should be doable to allow for recalibration?


Ah yes, sorry, I assumed he bottomed out on the stylus, for sure you can move that about within a reasonable range, just push on it a bit with your finger and it will give.

T.


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## Microlot (Jun 22, 2017)

Think this video shows the correct setup


__
http://instagr.am/p/BVkH2ejhOW6/


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

For what its worth, the lever on my lever gauge (made by Verdict) can be gently pushed against the stop to adjust the angle. There is a certain amount of slippage, no loosening of any nuts necessary. It feels like it is supposed to do that.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Managed to get down to 15 microns and I'm calling it a day there. It became much harder making 5 micron changes. I found shimming one bit would cause another bit to be the same amount out of alignment.

Subjectively the grinder at the newly calibrated finest setting seems much finer and my first espresso made definitely seemed to extract slower. Will need a bit more testing.

Below is a pic showing the new finest grinder level. Don't have a comparison pic unfortunately but it definitely seems finer.


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## Microlot (Jun 22, 2017)

Very nice,the silvers skin released out of the central crack of the bean is almost no more visible,that´s really fine


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

The tool is going out to @unoll early next week. You definitely aren't allowed to beat my variation Chris!

Brewed coffee is now 1.5 settings coarser than before and flavours are much more defined.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

fatboyslim said:


> The tool is going out to @unoll early next week. You definitely aren't allowed to beat my variation Chris!
> 
> Brewed coffee is now 1.5 settings coarser than before and flavours are much more defined.


Sounds like a challenge me! 1 micron here we come? although to get there I'd no doubt have to get @dsc round.

Where is the dial now for espresso compared to where it was previously?


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

unoll said:


> Sounds like a challenge me! 1 micron here we come�� although to get there I'd no doubt have to get @dsc round.
> 
> Where is the dial now for espresso compared to where it was previously?


Well I have more of a range in espresso now so I'm not grinding on the finest setting. It took much more fine tuning with the screwdriver to recalibrate the finest setting and I could probably still do a better job. The burrs suddenly just start touching after very little rotation on the screwdriver.

I would say my old espresso range would start from maybe 2 so I've gained 9 settings approximately. Pic below. Old brewed range started from 4.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

I was going to state my typical espresso setting but due to you having a different scale (mine's up to 22) and scale alignment I don't think it would be very helpful but your original setting does seem to have been very fine so perhaps a lot of the variance is due to zeroing. Looking at it a again, 2 on your scale is probably about 3 on mine and I'm currently at a fraction over 2 (2.05) with the last LSOL beans.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

dan1502 said:


> I a lot of the variance is due to zeroing.


What variance are you referring to and what do you mean by zeroing? Finding the finest point?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

dan1502 said:


> I was going to state my typical espresso setting but due to you having a different scale (mine's up to 22) and scale alignment I don't think it would be very helpful but your original setting does seem to have been very fine so perhaps a lot of the variance is due to zeroing. Looking at it a again, 2 on your scale is probably about 3 on mine and I'm currently at a fraction over 2 (2.05) with the last LSOL beans.


I think Dan is saying that a lot of the change you're seeing with dial setting might be down to you re-zeroing the dial, in other words you've just moved the numbers up/down a bit.

that might partly be true though depends on how consistent you are with zeroing - find the touch point and back off 10 degrees iirc


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Phobic said:


> I think Dan is saying that a lot of the change you're seeing with dial setting might be down to you re-zeroing the dial, in other words you've just moved the numbers up/down a bit.
> 
> that might partly be true though depends on how consistent you are with zeroing - find the touch point and back off 10 degrees iirc


Surely I can move a few degrees finer due to better alignment? The burrs would touch sooner if worse aligned wouldn't they? My EK was recalibrated just before I bought it by @[email protected].com. Grind is definitely finer compared to when I got it.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Looks like mat north at full court press messed up his ek43 with the titus tool. There's a clip on Instagram of him sanding the drive spindle down following attempted alignment, although I'm not sure what he did. Think I'm going to be be extra careful when I try to align.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

unoll said:


> Looks like mat north at full court press messed up his ek43 with the titus tool. There's a clip on Instagram of him sanding the drive spindle down following attempted alignment, although I'm not sure what he did. Think I'm going to be be extra careful when I try to align.


Maybe just an excuse to rub down his shaft? Sorry couldn't resist. I have no idea how you would damage the drive spindle other than fierce over-hammering when fitting the block to the top of the spindle/shaft?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

can't see why you couldn't go finer now aligned, base it on taste as always.

no idea how you damage the spindle/shaft! maybe he pushed the tool in to far/hard, maybe whacked it with a hammer?

got a link we can look at?


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Phobic said:


> can't see why you couldn't go finer now aligned, base it on taste as always.
> 
> no idea how you damage the spindle/shaft! maybe he pushed the tool in to far/hard, maybe whacked it with a hammer?
> 
> got a link we can look at?


Taste is rather excellent but I need some different coffees to try out. Absolutely nailed the 3rd shot of SSSSS in the most pecan-tastic 'spro that has ever existed (in my kitchen), but I need something juicy.

I'm going to make a short compilation of EK 'spro pours at different lever pressures...in 4K, it will look glorious


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## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

Evening gents, so the issue is twofold, one installing the tool. The carrier would not sit level, and so needed hammering in, as per the Titus video. Tbh the carrier is awful, incredibly inaccurate considering the dial indicator it carries. Plus you get very little in the way of manual or help from Frank, who has to be honest been awful the last few days. Terrible feedback, no help and completely unwilling to take on constructive criticism.

But that's fine, and isn't what causes the damage. It's the removal. Once you hammer it in, you need to use a screw driver to remove it. That spindle is softer than you think and can be damaged easily, hence the shear plate.

Same thing has happened to a few people, John Gordon included and the best way to rectify the issue is to re shape the burrs that are caused from the screwdriver by sanding them down so the burr carrier fits over the spindle again.

Some time with some wet and dry paper, some calipers to measure and it's all golden.

Anyway, the indicator is good, the carrier is shite. Hopefully he'll upgrade it.


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## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh and it's worth noting that I'm a pretty experienced tech, so I wouldn't have hammered it if I didn't have to.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

As I said before it might be better to go down the route of split shaft collar + mag base. Here's a photo showing a 14mm Guatemala shaft with a 14mm shaft collar but it's a custom made one I've had done for the ZR, so imagine a split collar in it's place. This will then enlarge the back end of the shaft and allow the mag base to stick easily (shaft collars are steel so magnetic). The second photo shows a mag base attached, this works even though the collar I used is stainless as the pull from the 14mm shaft is enough.

T.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Good to hear some additional feedback on the tool and it's issues/quirks.

Tomorrow I get to play the allignment game. Wish me luck.


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## Terranova (Feb 15, 2014)

matisse said:


> Tbh the carrier is awful, incredibly inaccurate considering the dial indicator it carries. Plus you get very little in the way of manual or help from Frank, who has to be honest been awful the last few days. Terrible feedback, no help and completely unwilling to take on constructive criticism


Matt, i think no matter what we do. no matter what we offer, in some cases we just cannot win.

I can understand your frustration and that you mention the problem you have where ever you can, this might release some of your frustration.

You don't need to hammer the tool inside because your version is stepped, This is also what I told you, but of course out of your sight not clearly enough

You just wrote me that you needed a hammer on your version instead of contacting me (in nearly 2 month)

I can also understand that you don't mention to the other forum members that I offered you to take care of your EK43 LE (which has a different burr carrier) and that I have offered you in my email to align it on our costs down to 10 micron.

I can also understand that you didn't mention my offer to send you a complete new alignment tool for free.

You preferred to ignore whatever I offered which is totally ok and your own choice.



matisse said:


> Same thing has happened to a few people, John Gordon included and the best way to rectify the issue is to re shape the burrs that are caused from the screwdriver by sanding them down so the burr carrier fits over the spindle again.


I would appreciate if you tell me who else had a problem with it, @JohnGordon09 had one of the first versions which he needed desperately for his burr testing.

He was in such a rush that he was just desperate to get the tool.

As soon as the 2nd version came out the next tool was sent directly to New Zealand (For free) then he asked me for another alignment tool for his UK burr distributor in England which was also a version where no hammer is needed.

John never told me that he has a problem with a tool. not even with the first version which definitely needed some force combined with some *common sense.*



*
*

The users in the UK forum are sharing an alignment tool. I also offered to throw in some extra shimming material (for free)

if they cannot get the machined tool inside the shaft (which is machined / cnc milled with less than 10 micron tolerance, out of your sight "shite") I am also happy to send them a new one for the sharing action and some charity funds.

I am very sorry that you had to "Grind your shaft by hand" and I hope you will have a good running Ek43 LE back on your shelf like some 100 other EK43 users who were happy with their much better aligned burrs.

Best regards

Frank


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## lepompier (Jul 4, 2015)

matisse said:


> Evening gents, so the issue is twofold, one installing the tool. The carrier would not sit level, and so needed hammering in, as per the Titus video. Tbh the carrier is awful, incredibly inaccurate considering the dial indicator it carries. Plus you get very little in the way of manual or help from Frank, who has to be honest been awful the last few days. Terrible feedback, no help and completely unwilling to take on constructive criticism.
> 
> But that's fine, and isn't what causes the damage. It's the removal. Once you hammer it in, you need to use a screw driver to remove it. That spindle is softer than you think and can be damaged easily, hence the shear plate.
> 
> ...


Not good to hear, why did not you try to remove it with vice grip and then wiggle it left and right to remove it? So frank did not help or offered to do anything about it? it is very unfortunate that this happened to you, Frank has always been helpful to us and not sure why he would ignore any constructive criticism but yes i agree it should come with instructions


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## lepompier (Jul 4, 2015)

matisse said:


> Oh and it's worth noting that I'm a pretty experienced tech, so I wouldn't have hammered it if I didn't have to.


 I am not experienced tech but I used vice Grip to remove the tool, you should give it a go it works like a charm


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

have to say that I had no problem getting it off or on.

Frank was massively helpful, responsive and generous via email.

I've loaned the tool out to 2 people, so we're not really sharing it with everyone @Terranova







still it's very kind of you to offer additional shims.

as I've said earlier in the thread,* I encourage people to buy their own*, it's important that the people who are developing things like this keep getting encouraged to do so.

building up a bit of knowledge on how best to use it here and then getting support from other people & the creator is the best way to learn.

It's directly created the best coffee I've ever made, couldn't be happier with it!


----------



## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

I had no vice grips, other grips wouldn't cut it. I only resorted to that removal technique as a last resort based on the video.


----------



## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

Hi Frank,

Whilst I stand by my feedback, I apologise for the language and tone used in this forum. We've discussed this via email, and I'll continue to contact you that way.

I only commented here as I was mentioned by someone else. You were unwittingly the false target of a very stressful week for me, and I apologise.

With regards the other points, I've not ignored your offers, I have other things to take care of, and alignment is at the bottom of the list, I will be emailing you soon.

Whilst I cannot blame you for posting in this manner, I'd appreciate it if we kept this between ourselves from now on, this helps neither us nor the forum.

Mat


----------



## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

So I got cracking straight away last night and established that whilst whiteboard marker pen had done me quite well (within approx 0.03mm or 30 microns difference on the gauge, roughly 0.02mm in vertical difference), I could still make improvements.

I replaced the flatheads with torx which allowed me to easily tighten and retighten each bolt to 5Nm and with one layer of foil near one bolt I've managed to get variation down to less than 0.02mm on the gauge, so roughly 0.015mm vertical difference. At 11.30 I called it quits and headed for bed. More fun later tonight.

Overall, although it can get a bit fiddly I havent particularly struggled with using the tool.


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

unoll said:


> So I got cracking straight away last night and established that whilst whiteboard marker pen had done me quite well (within approx 0.03mm or 30 microns difference on the gauge, roughly 0.02mm in vertical difference), I could still make improvements.
> 
> I replaced the flatheads with torx which allowed me to easily tighten and retighten each bolt to 5Nm and with one layer of foil near one bolt I've managed to get variation down to less than 0.02mm on the gauge, so roughly 0.015mm vertical difference. At 11.30 I called it quits and headed for bed. More fun later tonight.
> 
> Overall, although it can get a bit fiddly I havent particularly struggled with using the tool.


I used approximately 24 small pieces of foil! My EK was about 130 microns out before any alignment took place. Seems you did the hard work already and/or your EK had less misalignment to begin with.


----------



## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

looks good, my one didn't have that screw on the top of the spindle.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

I can see how without the release screw it would be a pita to get off once you've jammed it in place.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Curious if anyone tried measuring the rotating burr via the bottom outlet, with everything assembled and tight? At this point everyone assumes that the rotating bearing surface sits perfectly perpendicular to the shaft rotation, which might not be the case, so aligning the stationary burr against the rotating shaft might might not be enough. You can do a quick test on the rotating burr, by putting the whole assembly onto the shaft back to front, so that the burr points outwards and then swipe the cutting surfaces with a DTI. That or as I said earlier leave a big enough gap between the two burrs (so the DTI stylus fits) when all is assembled and swipe the rotating burr with a DTI via the outlet cutout on the bottom of the burr chamber.

T.


----------



## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

unoll said:


> I can see how without the release screw it would be a pita to get off once you've jammed it in place.


Mine doesn't have it either. How does the screw help release it? Perhaps with the screw it isn't quite as tight a fit?


----------



## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

dsc said:


> Curious if anyone tried measuring the rotating burr via the bottom outlet, with everything assembled and tight? At this point everyone assumes that the rotating bearing surface sits perfectly perpendicular to the shaft rotation, which might not be the case, so aligning the stationary burr against the rotating shaft might might not be enough. You can do a quick test on the rotating burr, by putting the whole assembly onto the shaft back to front, so that the burr points outwards and then swipe the cutting surfaces with a DTI. That or as I said earlier leave a big enough gap between the two burrs (so the DTI stylus fits) when all is assembled and swipe the rotating burr with a DTI via the outlet cutout on the bottom of the burr chamber.
> 
> T.


I'll give it a go once I've sorted the fixed burr. Using pen I found that the rotating burr wasn't that well aligned either.


----------



## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

fluffles said:


> Mine doesn't have it either. How does the screw help release it? Perhaps with the screw it isn't quite as tight a fit?


Once you're done measuring you then screw downwards, this pushes against the top of the spindle causing the assembly to release. I have noticed however that the top of my spindle now has a lovely indentation as a result although it won't effect anything.


----------



## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

dsc said:


> Curious if anyone tried measuring the rotating burr via the bottom outlet, with everything assembled and tight? At this point everyone assumes that the rotating bearing surface sits perfectly perpendicular to the shaft rotation, which might not be the case, so aligning the stationary burr against the rotating shaft might might not be enough. You can do a quick test on the rotating burr, by putting the whole assembly onto the shaft back to front, so that the burr points outwards and then swipe the cutting surfaces with a DTI. That or as I said earlier leave a big enough gap between the two burrs (so the DTI stylus fits) when all is assembled and swipe the rotating burr with a DTI via the outlet cutout on the bottom of the burr chamber.
> 
> T.


I'm struggling to picture what you mean by this. Regarding the collar and mount idea, have you thought about putting together a parts list or kit? I'm all for supporting people who come up with stuff like this but for the home user and given that hopefully once it's set up there should be no need to touch it again the price is very high. I think I'd borrow one or buy then sell on but your suggestion seems a good one.


----------



## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

unoll said:


> So I got cracking straight away last night and established that whilst whiteboard marker pen had done me quite well (within approx 0.03mm or 30 microns difference on the gauge, roughly 0.02mm in vertical difference), I could still make improvements.
> 
> I replaced the flatheads with torx which allowed me to easily tighten and retighten each bolt to 5Nm and with one layer of foil near one bolt I've managed to get variation down to less than 0.02mm on the gauge, so roughly 0.015mm vertical difference. At 11.30 I called it quits and headed for bed. More fun later tonight.
> 
> Overall, although it can get a bit fiddly I havent particularly struggled with using the tool.


looking really good! I think it helps a lot to start from somewhere good.

my felt tip exectution was shocking to be honest, I pretty much started again from a clean sheet.

@dsc I don't understand what you mean either! I want to have a go at aligning the rotating burr next but not really sure how best to achieve it other than making sure it's central and they using feeler gauges through the chute.

any suggestions/ideas?


----------



## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

It's hard to explain in more detail, I'll try and make a video with a simulated set up to discuss a few alignment related ideas.

What most people are doing is aligning the stationary burr, that's the one bolted to the grinder frame. The method for this is to use a dti, attach it to the shaft and spin it around checking the difference in distance between the top surface of the burr and a plane which is perpendicular to the axis of rotation. After all the shims are in place and your dti errors are minimised, you end up with a burr that has it's top surface parallel to a plane which is perpendicular to the axis of rotation. Most people end here, mount the rotating burr and call it a day, the problem here is that you are assuming that the rotating burr has it's top surface perpendicular to the axis which runs through the rotating burr carrier and that's not necessarily true. If the rotating burr doesn't sit perpendicular, or the bore in the carrier isn't perfect, you'd still have an uneven gap when running. So the idea here is that you should mount the dti in such a way that the end of the stylus can swipe the top surface of the rotating burr and rotate the burr, checking for dti reading differences (as opposed to rotating the dti with the shaft and keeping the burr stationary like earlier). For this to happen you need to have a hole in the burr chamber, otherwise you won't be able to measure and rotate the burr and here's where the outlet cutout comes in handy as through the cutout you can see the burr gap. So, all you need is to:

a) back off the rotating burr far enough so you have a few mm of a gap so the stylus fits and you can set it up so it touches the top surface of the rotating burr

b) mount the dti so that you can swipe the rotating burr, this might be tricky as the grinder is covered in plastic, so even a mag base will be hard to attach to something. I'd say perhaps attach it to a dti base of some sort and them clamp this tightly to the grinder case. It cannot slip or move during shaft rotation, as otherwise you'll get false readings

c) rotate the shaft (with the carrier and burr) and swipe the top surface of the rotating burr, check for low spots and mark them. Remove the carrier, slide shims under the burr and re-tighten, then back on the shaft and swipe again. Rinse and repeat. Just make sure that you don't crash into the dti stylus when putting the carrier back on the shaft (you should maintain the same burr hgap, so perhaps use a spacer to achieve this everytime the carrier goes back on the shaft).

d) Another issue is when fitting shims and tightening the burr, it should teoretically always go back into the same position, ideally dead centre on the carrier (this also applies to the stationary burr). This is again possible to do with a dti, if you have a piece of steel stock which fits the bore in the carrier, you can swipe the inner round rim of the burr to make sure it's dead on centre. Fastest way would be to manufacture a disk, which slides on to the carrier and centres the burr or use shims to offset it from a know dead centre surface.

As I said, it's hard to explain, I'll see if I can shoot a quick video and explain it better by showing a few metals parts, maybe set up a fake shaft on a pair of V blocks etc.

T.


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## Microlot (Jun 22, 2017)

Hi there,

the method with the whiteboard marker is a further possibiltiy to check the runout of the rotating burr very easily after having aligned the stationary one with the dti,but it is better to cover the stationary burr with the marker.

It is a lot easier to recognize the transfered colour from stationary to rotating burr than identify the rubbed off colour from a painted rotating burr.

In my case the minimum runout oft the rotating one was removed by unscrew the burr from the carrier,turn it 120 degrees and give one screw 1nm more torque,in my case 6nm, than the other two with 5nm.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

That's a lot clearer. I don't think the grinder is covered in plastic but the front housing is aluminium. If I can work out which suitable inexpensive gauge and mount to buy and the right collar I would have a go at the stationary burr then see what I can do about the rotating burr. I had visions of putting the rotating burr assembly on the shaft backwards but enough to spin it on the shaft to check if it's out.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Ah yes, I'm coming from a Guatemala which is all plastic







on the Guat though there's mounting holes at the bottom for the bag shaker, I'm guessing there's something similar on the EK as well? you could then simply bolt down a piece of steel and mount a magnetic base to it (I've got one I'm not using, can send it out if required). As for DTIs check ebay for Mitutoyo ones, for example here:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MITUTOYO-1044S-DIAL-INDICATOR-5mm-X-0-01mm-DIV-REAR-LUG-MOUNT-ACCESSORIES-/192251412618?hash=item2cc313c08a:g:73MAAOSw1P9ZbdfB

It's a plunger type, so would work well for the stationary burr, but wouldn't fit for the rotating one as you need to keep it perpendicular to the surface to take measurements.

If you don't care about quality, just type "dial indicator" into ebay's search and there's loads of used ones for pennies:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIAL-TEST-INDICATOR-LEVER-/263098823859?hash=item3d41e974b3:g:rEQAAOSwRZRZcO3O

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TESATAST-JEWELLED-METRIC-DIAL-TEST-INDICATOR-DTI-/282573938058?hash=item41cab81d8a:g:qbUAAOSwWdZZa7Ja

even with mag bases:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Engineering-Baty-Dial-Indicator-Eclipse-Magnetic-Base-Engineer-Lathe-Work-/152628002864?hash=item2389568030:g:Z4oAAOSwmoBZbSCy

I've ordered myself a 14mm split collar, so will try to take a short video when it arrives to show how you can use it on a Guatemala (very similar to an EK).

T.


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## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

I see no reason why this method wouldn't work, it'll be a pain to adjust, taking it on and off again each time.

I actually feel that this should be better than aligning the moving burr separately, as when we do this we are assuming that it spins true on the drive spindle.

If you align the stationary burr and then match the mc'ing burr to it in this manner, you should end up with the most accurate result.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I've been pondering aligning the moving burr for a few days.

I think you could just use the same titus alignment tool setup on the rotating burr if you had a different block machined to fit it and a rotating shaft insert to mount it on.

what we're doing with the stationary burr is making sure it's perpendicular to the shaft.

you can achieve the same thing by making sure the rotating burr is perpendicular to the internal diameter of the rotating carriage holder - the bit that the shaft fits into. Then you can use exactly the same technique as we do for the rotating burr.

stick a rod through the hole in the rotating burr carrier, mount the titus tool onto that using a different block, and use the same technique.

does that make sense?


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Yup for sure that's doable and I've mentioned it above when discussing methods of making sure the burr goes back on dead centre. The only issue here is the size of the shaft as on the Guat it's 14mm and this isn't a standard stock size (closest is 12mm and 15mm), so you'd need to get it machined to fit.

T.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

ah right, maybe I didn't understand what you were saying (or maybe i did subconsciously







)


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Lever type dial gauge and magnetic base on their way via ebay. I hope they're ok. It'll be a while until I use them though. Thanks to Tom for the assistance and I'm looking forward to his how to video.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Phobic said:


> ah right, maybe I didn't understand what you were saying (or maybe i did subconsciously
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah sorry, it was thrown in as a btw note rather than a proper method description.

T.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

I'm going to embark on this tonight. I've read through this thread so am a little clearer, but would like to ask a simple question of @Phobic @fatboyslim and @unoll if possible.

If I measure with the gauge and find that the high point is at 12 o'clock, 3 o'clock is -2, 6 o'clock is -6 and 9 o'clock is -3 ... what would be the best way to shim? Do I concentrate on just the low point (6 o'clock), or do I shim at 3 and 9 o'clock as well? What size shimming material is likely to be the best in this example?

Thanks!


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I would use the lowest point as your starting point, so 6 o'clock. That makes 12 o'clock +6. I would do 4 layers of alu foil at 6 o'clock. 2 layers at 9 o'clock. Maybe one layer at 3 o'clock.

That's just me though.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

fatboyslim said:


> I would use the lowest point as your starting point, so 6 o'clock. That makes 12 o'clock +6. I would do 4 layers of alu foil there. 2 layers at 9 o'clock. Maybe one layer at 3 o'clock.
> 
> That's just me though.


Thanks, I've got the Titus aluminium strips so can be more accurate in terms of selecting shim thickness


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

fluffles said:


> Thanks, I've got the Titus aluminium strips so can be more accurate in terms of selecting shim thickness


I got a bit mixed up in my reply (edited now) but I think the information you are after is I shimmed about six different locations around the circumference of the stationary burr. I had 140 microns of variance before aligning though!

Try shimming at the clock points you mention and see how you get on. It would be a miracle if you crack it first time


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

fluffles said:


> I'm going to embark on this tonight. I've read through this thread so am a little clearer, but would like to ask a simple question of @Phobic @fatboyslim and @unoll if possible.
> 
> If I measure with the gauge and find that the high point is at 12 o'clock, 3 o'clock is -2, 6 o'clock is -6 and 9 o'clock is -3 ... what would be the best way to shim? Do I concentrate on just the low point (6 o'clock), or do I shim at 3 and 9 o'clock as well? What size shimming material is likely to be the best in this example?
> 
> Thanks!


I didn't experiment to be able to confirm the best method but if I were doing it again I would just start by shimming 6 o'clock to with a +6 and see what effect it had on the rest. it really depends on what the overall deviation is like.

what I found was when I shimmed at 3 points at the same time it resulted in over compensating so the point were all higher than needed.

I'd also try to keep to a max of 3 locations if you can, otherwise it's very fidly!


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

unoll said:


> I recently got a bag of a2 m5×10 torx pan head screws. The plan is to swap out the rubbish flathead screws as it's difficult to get consistent tightness. It's a bag of 50 so I'm happy to send a few your way, although probs best I experiment with them first.


 @unoll what diameter head are these? The standard slotted head screws are 10mm whereas most low cap screws seem to be 8mm. It probably doesn't matter but I just wondered as it would be nice for them to match other than being nicer to use Torx of course (particularly with a torque wrench). My Ti ones are M5 x 12mm so unless there's more than enough thread depth the won't be any good.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

dan1502 said:


> @unoll what diameter head are these? The standard slotted head screws are 10mm whereas most low cap screws seem to be 8mm. It probably doesn't matter but I just wondered as it would be nice for them to match other than being nicer to use Torx of course (particularly with a torque wrench). My Ti ones are M5 x 12mm so unless there's more than enough thread depth the won't be any good.


Haven't measured the head diameter tbo but visually they look the same next to the regular screws. The ones I got aren't cap head thought, they're pan head.


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## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

fluffles said:


> I'm going to embark on this tonight. I've read through this thread so am a little clearer, but would like to ask a simple question of @Phobic @fatboyslim and @unoll if possible.
> 
> If I measure with the gauge and find that the high point is at 12 o'clock, 3 o'clock is -2, 6 o'clock is -6 and 9 o'clock is -3 ... what would be the best way to shim? Do I concentrate on just the low point (6 o'clock), or do I shim at 3 and 9 o'clock as well? What size shimming material is likely to be the best in this example?
> 
> Thanks!


Alignment is like truing a bike wheel, start with the largest varience, shim, retest and repeat.

When truing a wheel changing thr tension of one spoke changes how the others interact. It's the same with alignment, when you shim it affects the whole system, always shim one section at a time and retest.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

unoll said:


> Haven't measured the head diameter tbo but visually they look the same next to the regular screws. The ones I got aren't cap head thought, they're pan head.


 Sorry, yes, DIN 7985 pan head are the same diameter. I just happened to have some low cap screws so had been looking at them.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Got the collar finally, here's the set up, you need to move the mag base to one side to allow room for the DTI and attachments to fit. It's a bit tricky as the mag base arm is not bendy, but it's doable and you can easily pop it on / off. Video to follow soon.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

anyone got a link to some good replacement screws for mounting the burrs? Having been through the joys of alignment one of the screws has cut up quite badly.

(i'll post my alignment experiences later when I've time, might be a long post!)


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

I went through the pain of alignment yesterday, here are my thoughts and observations:

Out of the factory the gauge measured that there was a 0.09mm difference between the low and high points.

On my first attempt I was shimming in multiple places at once and I ended up with so many shims that I quickly lost faith in what I was doing so started again.

Decided to take the advice of @matisse and only shim once place at a time. I had previously noticed that there always seems to be low spots around the screws (which kinda makes sense since this is where you screw the burr down), so I concentrated on getting the three screw points level. I then moved on to the bits in between the screws. When shimming the screw points I placed the shim directly behind the screw point, when shimming in between screw points I found it better to places two shims a centimetre or so either side of the low point rather than a single shim. I ended up with the following (numbers are marks on the gauge, so 1 = 0.01mm, 2 = 0.02mm, etc):










This left me with an alignment within around 0.015mm - probably could be better but I'd had enough by that point and was still a lot better than where I started.

Put everything back together and conducted a chirp test (i.e. bring the burrs lightly together and listen to the sound they make,






(A quick and easy way of making small adjustments and improving the chirp sound was to play with the torque on the front case screws. Back off the burrs, play with the torque in the screws then chirp then again. I was able to very quickly improve the sound of the chirp in this way - I found that tightening the right hand screw more than the left was best)

With the marker pen, I'm getting a fairly consistent contact around the moving burr. However, I'm not getting much contact around one side of the static burr. Given that I have supposedly aligned it parallel to the shaft, this is a little unexpected and annoying.

This has all left me pondering a couple of things:

1. Is the titus alignment tool technique actually any good? is the marker technique and sound test any good? At least with the marker pen you're getting definite evidence of burr contact, with the tool it is all a little theoretical.

2. Should I now shim the fixed burr so that I get contact around its entire circumference according to the marker pen? At the moment it is aligned according to the tool, but not the marker pen technique. Which do I trust?

3. It would be great if we could find a way of using the tool with the moving burr.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

0.1mm shim sounds huge, if it was indeed off by that much I'm surprised it was producing drinkable shots.

There's nothing wrong with the dti technique and I'd say that's the best way to do it, you just need to make sure you can trust your readings (repeatability, not sure how repeatable that import dti is). With the marker method you don't know how well the marker sticks to the surface and you might have different marker mark thickness as well, different rub / friction required to start showing transfer marks etc. DTI will be much better and will provide good results if you are doing it well.

T.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

fluffles said:


> I went through the pain of alignment yesterday, here are my thoughts and observations:
> 
> Out of the factory the gauge measured that there was a 0.09mm difference between the low and high points.
> 
> ...


Has it made any appreciable difference in the cup?


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

dsc said:


> 0.1mm shim sounds huge, if it was indeed off by that much I'm surprised it was producing drinkable shots.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with the dti technique and I'd say that's the best way to do it, you just need to make sure you can trust your readings (repeatability, not sure how repeatable that import dti is). With the marker method you don't know how well the marker sticks to the surface and you might have different marker mark thickness as well, different rub / friction required to start showing transfer marks etc. DTI will be much better and will provide good results if you are doing it well.
> 
> T.


the question is whether I am better off having shimmed the moving burr in this way or deciding that the marker technique is unreliable and leaving it un-shimmed and "trusting" it was good out of the factory.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Has it made any appreciable difference in the cup?


Too early to say, have only made one cup since aligning. Will revisit some familiar coffees from the freezer and see if I notice much difference. Trust you to take all the fun out of it by talking about things like "taste" and "enjoyment" over gadgets and equipment!


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

fluffles said:


> the question is whether I am better off having shimmed the moving burr in this way or deciding that the marker technique is unreliable and leaving it un-shimmed and "trusting" it was good out of the factory.


One way would be to use the DTI to check the moving burr, but with the Titus tool I don't think it will be possible without at least drill two holes to fix it to the grinder chassis (you could clamp it in place if you have a large enough F clamp / C clamp).

T.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Has it made any appreciable difference in the cup?


In my case my functional espresso range increased dramatically so I would say a resounding yes


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

If any of the other aligners are up for trying the marker pen on the moving burr it would be very interesting to hear your results. If you're hearing a clicking rather than a high pitch ringing in your chirp then it would suggest it is not aligned that well


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

fluffles said:


> anyone got a link to some good replacement screws for mounting the burrs? Having been through the joys of alignment one of the screws has cut up quite badly.
> 
> (i'll post my alignment experiences later when I've time, might be a long post!)


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M5-5mm-A2-STAINLESS-STEEL-TORX-PAN-HEAD-MACHINE-SCREWS-SIX-LOBE-DRIVE-TX25/232220950737?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=531429206197&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Has anyone checked how uniform the burr grinding surfaces are just to be certain they're consistent (due to manufacture or wear) before starting?


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

dan1502 said:


> Has anyone checked how uniform the burr grinding surfaces are just to be certain they're consistent (due to manufacture or wear) before starting?


I did wonder about this too, are we using the tool on a level surface? Given that burrs come out of the factory not perfectly aligned, any coming together of the burrs (chirping) in an unaligned state could potentially wear down the flat surfaces unevenly, no?


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

dsc said:


> 0.1mm shim sounds huge, if it was indeed off by that much I'm surprised it was producing drinkable shots.


Bear in mind that the 0.1mm was measured AFTER I had aligned the fixed burr to the shaft, so it isn't necessarily the case that there was a 0.1mm difference BEFORE i aligned


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

fluffles said:


> I did wonder about this too, are we using the tool on a level surface? Given that burrs come out of the factory not perfectly aligned, any coming together of the burrs (chirping) in an unaligned state could potentially wear down the flat surfaces unevenly, no?


I've tested burrsets before and all were flat to within 0.01mm (apart from chips and raised edges due to bumps).

You could always lap them on some 800 grit wet paper on a surface plate just to make sure all the raised bits are removed (if there is any).

T.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

If I had a surface plate. I'm realising that when you get into measuring stuff to this degree of accuracy it isn't simple and takes a lot of thought/care.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

dan1502 said:


> Has anyone checked how uniform the burr grinding surfaces are just to be certain they're consistent (due to manufacture or wear) before starting?


checked mine with a caliper and they were very good, can't remember numbers though, too long ago for that.

I need to get off my ass and align the moving burr I think, might get round to it this weekend


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

Hello

I finally had a go, with a generic DTI attached to burr shaft with threaded bar and

a wotnot.









Quite boring work, but with one layer tin-foil shim achieved fairly decent +- 0.01mm tolerance.

Thought about working on the rotating burr, perhaps mounted backwards on the shaft

with the DTI attached to the case somehow could work, but I didn't have the correct wotnot.

So for now just the static burr.

But after putting back together I was amazed to see I can now grind

Decaf Espresso at 2.0 instead of 1.2 !!

Tast-wise, so far has been great, and certainly a relief not having to grind right

next to the 'chirp-zone'.

-JKK


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

My Mitutoyo gauge and arm have arrived (and some torx screws). Presumably I just need a steel collar now though I might see about making up a steel plate to fit in place of the chute (or having one made up) before I begin.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

After aligning the static burr with the tool and the moving burr with the marker pen, I didn't notice any change in shot times - more or less the same. Not much change in flavour either. Decided to go back and tweak further with the marker pen - it was wiping clean on the moving burr but not the static burr, so I got it wiping clean on both burrs and my shot times have now increased (30s -> 36s). Flavour was damn good too.

I dunno, I just find I trust the marker pen more as I can see that contact has happened. Aligning the static burr to the shaft is all well and good, but the alignment to the moving burr is what is important and the two are not necessarily the same thing.

Incidentally, inspired by @matisse's spreadsheet on the Gorilla burrs thread I just dusted off the Aeropress and am sipping a really lovely 24.83% brew (not a long steep, 1m15s brew time). Better alignment? Maybe, maybe not


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## ShortShots (Oct 2, 2013)

if anyone would be willing to lend us one of these beauties we would see fit to return it with a few bags of coffee of their choice if anyone is up for it?


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

ShortShots said:


> if anyone would be willing to lend us one of these beauties we would see fit to return it with a few bags of coffee of their choice if anyone is up for it?


Sure thing, PM me an address and I will post it out to you


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## bpchia (Dec 23, 2014)

Hi, just received my tool but have a few questions before I get started:

1. What sort of torque wrench (or is it a torque driver?) do I need to get the force even between the three screws? What would one recommend as the torque in Nm? Would you recommend a fixed torque wrench or adjustable if this is all I'm using it for?

2. What screws would you replace the stock screws with and is "food safe" critical?

3. Does anybody replace the two flat-head screws that fix the faceplate? If yes, what with?

Thanks


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## mazi (Jan 21, 2015)

1.



jupe2.0 said:


> tightening torques for EK43
> 
> grinding house M4: 1,4 Nm
> 
> burrs M5 (fix and rotating): 2,8 Nm.


2. What screws would you replace the stock screws with and is "food safe" critical?

Original is flat head screw DIN85 M5x10 A2 and I changed them for ISO 7380 M5x10 A2 (A2 is stainless steel)

3. Does anybody replace the two flat-head screws that fix the faceplate? If yes, what with?

Credit: James Risk on FB Barista Hustle

EK43 hack! Replace the flat head screws on the front with socket cap screws. No more chewed screws, no more slips of the screwdriver scratching the grinder. M6x20 is the size. You can even get fancy coloured ones like the Titanium ones in the picture. Makes opening the EK up for cleaning super easy!


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## Terranova (Feb 15, 2014)

This video should help.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Bit of a thread resurrection. Having bought the new style coffee burrs from @coffeejon to replace my old style burrs I checked the alignment before fitting.

There was a potential problem as the raised edge on the back of the new burrs is wider than on the old, and I'd used the sanding method to align the old meaning there is a channel into which the new burrs won't sit. With hindsight I wouldn't use that method again. I checked the variance in the channel and it was very uniform though.

I fitted the new burrs and the variance was about 60 microns, not allowing for cosine error.

I struggled for hours with foil to get to 25 microns then thought I'll make one last adjustment and screwed it up. By that time there were lots of pieces of foil and they moved.

So, I removed them all, made up some longer pieces and placed them where I thought they might work and immediately got to about 11 to 12 microns. I resisted the temptation to meddle further as I think that's a good result. Edit - taking a guess at the angle, it should be about 10 microns after adjusting for Cosine error.






I've not tried the rotating burr yet as I need to find a way to attach the gauge. A machined steel plate might be best but my pillar drill has too much wobble.

This is a test of the shaft but I don't know what to make of it.


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