# SILVIA out of stock - other ideas for a first decent machine?



## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

Hi all.

I joined the forum 18 months ago and remember spending a long time researching the eternal question of "what coffee machine should I buy?"

We ended up just fixing the (pretty rubbish) one that we had, but now it has died and it is time to finally get a proper machine.

I remembered that I had narrowed down the advice to a Rancilio Silvia and a Eureka Mignon grinder, but today I went to look at Bella Barista and find they are out of stock of the Silvias and couldn't tell me any better than "hopefully in a month we will have more"... They are showing as in stock at coffeeitalia, but they don't carry the Mignon so can;t get a "set" discount, and I seem to remember reading they are not as good as BB anyway.

I'm really not sure I have the heart to retstart the whole research process, so I was hoping you all might be able to tell me what I should get.

I'm wondering what LELIT are like?

BB have a VICTORIA which looks quite interesting. I like the small footprint and the ability to take MUGS:

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-victoria-91t.html

Also there is an ANNA TEM being discounted here. I like the idea of DISCOUNTS.https://www.thecoffeemate.co.uk/p/traditionl-espresso-coffee-machine-lelit-anna-tem/

https://www.thecoffeemate.co.uk/p/traditionl-espresso-coffee-machine-lelit-anna-tem/

Also willing to consider anything up to near the £650 mark.

A desired ability would be a machine that can get up to temperature in 15 minutes or so, and I am hoping to not have to buy another coffee machine until 2040.









Or should we just wait a month and get a Silvia?

Thanks.

Robert


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

BB had a decent selection of "good entry level" machines in their ex-display section when I was there on Monday. Could be worth a trip.

Quick Mill Silvano?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I would not buy a silvia new , in or out of stock. They are over priced for the features they have.

I don't often reference whole latte love, but even they talk about the deadband on here. It's just pants for a machine that claims commercial quality build and for the price they ask for it.

[video=youtube;Y-tsXSoCaGk]






PS i had a silvia previously


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

Thanks for the early replies!

Rob - I hadn't realised that they had that section, thank you! The Quick Mill looks interesting - I'm sensing from very brief googling that they are a step up from the Rancilio?

MrBoots - what would you buy?


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Firstly, I'm going to call on @joey24dirt to interject on behalf of his beloved DTP!


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

The Silvano seemed a great option to me, as opposed to a Classic. You should look at how the specs differ to a Due Temp Pro tho, as both are thermoblock machines (which I haven't used but I understand gives good steaming capabilities). My experiences on a Classic are that a PID is a massive benefit on a non-e61 machine, where temperature stability can be hit or miss.

I tried to buy a Silvano last year to upgrade my Classic but couldn't find one at the right price. BB had a couple in stock, I think around a similar price to the Silvia, maybe a nudge more.

The also had a Fracino Piccino (in yellow!!) which is a dual boiler and would be a superb starter machine if you drink a lot of milky coffees, but maybe less ideal than the Silvano if you drink mainly black (the Piccino reportedly has poor temperature stability so the resultant espresso can vary in quality, where as the Silvano would be more consistent)


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

rob177palmer said:


> Firstly, I'm going to call on @joey24dirt to interject on behalf of his beloved DTP!


Haha cheers  yep it's common knowledge I love my little DTP. Good option if you wanted to save on the budget and put that towards a beast of a grinder.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

rdpx said:


> Thanks for the early replies!
> 
> Rob - I hadn't realised that they had that section, thank you! The Quick Mill looks interesting - I'm sensing from very brief googling that they are a step up from the Rancilio?
> 
> MrBoots - what would you buy?


I dont really have an answer to that , learning how to temp surf or work a machines dead band , teaches you nothing about making espresso .

Personally id explore brewed coffee , see if you like the taste of good roasted coffee , go to some cafes try some great espresso and then if you still decide its worth going the rabbit hole then save up a little more.


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

We like good coffee, but are not prepared "to go down the rabbit hole". Merely looking for a decent compromise between a good espresso, and not spending three grand on a grinder!

I think the Silvano looks like quite a good option, might give them a call in the morning.

No-one has opinions on the LELIT models?

R


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## ohms (Jan 22, 2018)

For £600 you could pick up the Nuova Simonelli Oscar II, as I just have.. (I'm also pairing with a Eureka Mignon II grinder!)


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

ohms said:


> For £600 you could pick up the Nuova Simonelli Oscar II, as I just have.. (I'm also pairing with a Eureka Mignon II grinder!)


If you could get Oscar II for that price it will definitely be a machine to have. Well built and with good temp stability.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

rdpx said:


> No-one has opinions on the LELIT models?
> 
> R


I haven't read any bad reviews on lelit. They seem to be more popular in America due to better availability. They seem fine and have a big range. The higher end ones look quite good and the Lelit Mara just had a stellar review from DavecUK, who very much knows his stuff.

I can't recall your budget.

Bear in mind you should be spending a good amount of money on your grinder - you will get much better value secondhand and even a well used commercial grinder should last forever with not many parts to go wrong. People seem to love mignons. My personal view is spend £100-200 on a used super jolly - maybe less pretty but more solid and will always be worth what you paid for it!

If you want new then £650 would buy you some good ex-display options at bella but you will have to visit them to review and collect as these sale items can't be posted.

You might end up spending £900 on the Mara, which I understand to be one of the best at the price.

I'd buy a used grinder. Broadly, a bigger budget on grinder will improve your coffee more than a bigger budget on the machine, certainly at this end of the market.

Oh - and you have to promise to post about what kit you finally decide on!!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

rdpx said:


> We like good coffee, but are not prepared "to go down the rabbit hole". Merely looking for a decent compromise between a good espresso, and not spending three grand on a grinder!
> 
> I think the Silvano looks like quite a good option, might give them a call in the morning.
> 
> ...


You say that now, not many people come here expecting to .. many end up doing it though


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

If you're not too fussy about your espresso and not bothered about milk; consider the cafflano kompresso (£65) or the flair (£149). I've got a kompresso and I'm really impressed with it so far. Paired up with a decent grinder you can get great results without too much effort and focus the left over cash on what's important - the coffee!


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> You say that now, not many people come here expecting to .. many end up doing it though


My other half is already leaning towards a LELIT Victoria, which is right at the top end of price that we are looking at...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

rdpx said:


> My other half is already leaning towards a LELIT Victoria, which is right at the top end of price that we are looking at...


And you need

Grinder,

Knock box

Scales

Tamper

Cleaning stuff

Wemo Plug


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> And you need
> 
> Grinder,
> 
> ...


Just had to Google wemo plug... Do you have one of those so you can fire up your machine on your way home!?

Coz I like the sound of *that*


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> And you need
> 
> Grinder,
> 
> ...


Might be easier to just stick with tea.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

rdpx said:


> Might be easier to just stick with tea.


or brewed coffee.


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## brabzzz (Apr 14, 2017)

I can only compare 3 machines - a Silvia, my current Expobar Leva DB and my parents' £190 DeLonghi B2C.

The Silvia is a finicky, irritating little bastard - compared to the Expobar. Like rolling a dice...and the butt of family jokes when 4+ people pop by for a coffee.

Maybe i never learned to get the best out of it, but the price difference between a new Silvia and a used HX/DB makes me wonder the why i ever bothered with a Silvia in the first place - other than trying to avoid going down the slippery spendy slope to better and better gear. I rate my increased enjoyment and reduced frustration more highly than the extra couple of hundred quid. The extra spend buys you something far easier, consistent, predictable and seriously more pleasant to use - and maybe better espresso.

The parents B2C? Is it 'great' espresso? No. But it is ok. Is it better than you get served in some chain cafe outlets? Maybe, some, yes. Absolutely i have paid £3+ for crapper coffee than their machine produces, on the high street. If you make a cappuccino like average joe and jane expect and know, they like it. My parents like it. I find it nice enough when i visit. Can i create microfoam with it? Yep. For £190 - warms up in 5 mins, no messing about, produces ok espresso (maybe a tad longer, but hey) quickly, cleanly and with zero faff. Avoids the rabbit hole too.

If you have £650 to play with, i nearly went down the Oscar 2 route. You'll find it for 100 less than that online. Never heard or read a bad thing said about it - just that it was a pleasure to use, steamed like a demon and was great value for money. But i've never used one...

Good luck


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

brabzzz said:


> The Silvia is a finicky, irritating little bastard - compared to the Expobar. Like rolling a dice...and the butt of family jokes when 4+ people pop by for a coffee.
> 
> Maybe i never learned to get the best out of it, but the price difference between a new Silvia and a used HX/DB makes me wonder the why i ever bothered with a Silvia in the first place - other than trying to avoid going down the slippery spendy slope to better and better gear. I rate my increased enjoyment and reduced frustration more highly than the extra couple of hundred quid. The extra spend buys you something far easier, consistent, predictable and seriously more pleasant to use - and maybe better espresso.


That's a fair summation , that's what using a machine with a dead in temp is like , rolling dice. It annoys me coz people get seduced by by " commercial grade components " spiel that people use to market it. This when the most important thing an espresso machine needs to do it deliver water at a good stable temp each tome you hit the button. Until you used one , then got a another machine that it actually competent you really cant comment







. At what £450 ish for a new machine they are a colossally over priced. Every new version now the M never fixes the problem they have , Rancilio just don't seem to care , people keep buying em.


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

thanks for both those replies.

The Silvia is now off the list!

We are leaning further towards the Lelit Victoria PL91T as everything I can find about it suggests people like it and that. it's a good machine.

Pros: narrow footprint; "mug-friendly"; seems "idiot-friendly"

Heaviest regular use is likely to be two cappuccino at a time...

I'm talking to BB and still considering the refurbished Silvano, but I think it would dominate the kitchen.

They have an old Oscar as well, but geez they're ugly!


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Lelit are an rare machine - not used ones so don't know, it seems to have a pid - but for a couple hundred more you will be into Oscar II or Rocket apartmentino

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-machines/all-coffee-machines/heat-exchanger.html?product_list_order=price

both are HX machines that will provide greater thermal stability - your best bet is a day out to bella to look at machines and be talked through them


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

jimbojohn55 said:


> Lelit are an rare machine - not used ones so don't know, it seems to have a pid - but for a couple hundred more you will be into Oscar II or Rocket apartmentino


The Lelit Victoria is actually slightly more expensive than the Oscar II at BB (£659 against £649 without OPV):

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-victoria-91t.html

From looking at specs and videos though the Oscar (and the Silvano Evo that BB have on clearance) just seem too big, as I mentioned above.

The Lelit PL91T on the other hand has a really small footprint (22.5W x 26.5D)

I just spent ten minutes on the phone with David at BB and am considering going up there to get a feel for what they are like "in the flesh".

[They are counselling to hold fire on a grinder for another month or so as they are expecting new improved Eureka Mignons to be coming sometime next month.]


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## brabzzz (Apr 14, 2017)

The Lelit seems to match the specs of a Silvia or Classic (with PID installed) that go for £150-300 on here.

In a more sleek, small, kitchen friendly and shiny iteration form (like a Classic then...), but has a slightly larger boiler (like a Silvia).

Edit: The fact that it's in the same price range as an Oscar 2 makes it easy. If you have 750 and plan to buy new, you owe it to yourself to (ideally) see them both make 2 cappuccinos back to back.

It is like comparing a communist-era Lada to a modern VW. The differences are not solely aesthetic but very much in how it works, what it can do and how it does it. Both will move, turn and stop - but the difference will be more than skin deep.


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

brabzzz said:


> The Lelit seems to match the specs of a Silvia or Classic (with PID installed) that go for £150-300 on here.
> 
> In a more sleek, small, kitchen friendly and shiny iteration form (like a Classic then...), but has a slightly larger boiler (like a Silvia).
> 
> ...


Yes we are planning on buying new (or poss ex-demo).

I agree that seeing them both working is important, and advice like this is exactly why I started the thread!

Seeing them might also make me think the size is not really such an issue.

If anyone is reading this and thinking "oh dear god no what a foolish mistake" then please tell me why...!

At the moment I need good reasons NOT to buy the Lelit.

Current considerations are:

1. Lelit Victoria - (Bella Barista speak very highly of LELIT, and the size is a big PLUS)

2. Quick Mill Silvano Evo - (display model otherwise unused)

3. NS OSCAR II - (new - add £90 for OPV*)

(* does it NEED the OPV?)


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## brabzzz (Apr 14, 2017)

The Lelit machine that got the home barista world excited and put Lelit on the radar was the PL62 Mara.

It did something that has been done for decades (a HX / heat exchange machine) but make it smaller and cuter and more kitchen friendlier than anyone before.

Yours for £980-1100 in the UK.

By all accounts a good machine - competes with the Expobar Leva, Rocket Appartamento, Oscar 2 and many others.


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## ohms (Jan 22, 2018)

I guess you should ask yourself - what do you drink? If it's just espressos then a single boiler may be fine for you. But if you drink more milk based drinks - a HX unit would serve you much better. As such, you're looking at the Oscar, really.


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

ohms said:


> I guess you should ask yourself - what do you drink? If it's just espressos then a single boiler may be fine for you. But if you drink more milk based drinks - a HX unit would serve you much better. As such, you're looking at the Oscar, really.


Every morning we make ONE milk based drink, then another half an hour later.

At weekends we make TWO at a time.

Occasionally when we have friend over we may end up making four espressos....

I guess if we get a schmancy machine we may start making more coffee for people!!!

For thirteen years we have been heating milk using a stove-top frother contraption.

For thirteen years we have been using a Saeco pressurised PF machine (La Pav branded) that for the past two years has been fubar temp wise, but OH has been content with it.

I have been using Lavazza since about 1992. I guess I like the packet it brings me nice memories.










I'm all over the Rocket, truth be told, but I know it is OVERKILL for us and that it is my inner-geek speaking.

I believe that we would probably be happy with the Lelit, but can see its limitations.


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

brabzzz said:


> The Lelit machine that got the home barista world excited and put Lelit on the radar was the PL62 Mara.


Ooooh that's even narrower than the Victoria...

(Not as pretty as the Rocket though, eh?) and this is how it starts

"alice, alice, come back, it's only a kitten!!!"


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## ohms (Jan 22, 2018)

rdpx said:


> Every morning we make ONE milk based drink, then another half an hour later.
> 
> At weekends we make TWO at a time.
> 
> ...


So, seeing the limitations of a single boiler machine (lots of waiting around), what's keeping you from the Oscar? Looks? Size? And have you looked or thought about grinders? (that will equally dictate your overall budget)


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## brabzzz (Apr 14, 2017)

There is also the Expobar Office Pulsar - narrower and cheaper than most HX machines.

Its looks...i imagine one would either love or hate them.

I quiet like its utilitarian/function-over-form approach, indeed, i prefer it to the Oscar 2.

But certainly not more than an E61 machine with lots of polished SS, knobs, gauges, LEDs and spouts.

Horses for courses


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

get a pav europiccola - job done


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

jimbojohn55 said:


> get a pav europiccola - job done


I would love one.

But my partner would end up in a puddle of tears and coffee.

We have to know our limitations.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

I have read through all this thread and for me the answer is screaming Fracino Piccino. I had one of these for a while and I only changed as I need a more commercial set up due to the needs of the business. They are rock solid machines, they can steam and brew at the same time and the support from Fracino is great! They also suit your requirement for a small foot print. They are great to look at too. This an a K3 Touch or a Mignon is a quality set up.

This is a personal thing as I like milk drinks also but when you get up to the 650 range I would really be wanting a dual boiler. Single boiler for that money seems expensive when you could PID a used Gaggia Classic and get similar performance for half that.

I have read the talk of temperature stability but I can honestly say I never had any issues with it.

You can pick them up from Nisbets for £614 currently.

Good luck!


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Definitely go and see with an open mind.

I have to say I want to be the one to say don't buy THAT lelit. Definitely look at the Mara and some of this other options, but at that price those other two options will be superior and there really isn't much difference in size.


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## brabzzz (Apr 14, 2017)

Good call on the Fracino. Didn't realise it was reasonably small.

MyEspresso also have their own looking version of it, ex-demo, for 500

The Profitec 300 is similar but with a PID...and double the price.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

BB have an ex-demo prof 300 at an excellent price and I was very pleasantly surprised at the small size - seemed a very good option


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Have you seen the recent thread?


https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink...rums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=567050&share_type=t

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=6813&share_tid=42710&share_pid=567050&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcoffeeforums%2Eco%2Euk%2Fshowpost%2Ephp%3Fp%3D567050&share_type=t


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## brabzzz (Apr 14, 2017)

Dead link, but i assume one of these - new guy with new Profitec 300?

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?42710&p=567050#post567050

*https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?42643&p=565962#post565962*

Really smart looking machine - and a nice discount at BB.


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

Fracino Piccino.. A double boiler for £614??

Where's the catch?

The Profitec 300 also looks nice for £900...


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## brabzzz (Apr 14, 2017)

Lol - the choice is getting harder rather than easier, eh?









It is cheap for a DB. The cheapest ones (depending on what degree of discount you can find) are the Piccino, the Profitec and the Sage Dual Boiler.

Downsides?

1) They all have quiet small boilers - but that really shouldn't affect most 'normal' people - we're not a cafe.

2) The Piccino has no brain/PID. How much that affects the temperature i don't know. Never owned one.

3) The Sage is loved on here - but plastic and nobody would buy one without a 3 year warrenty - unless you were a huge Heston fan-boy ;-)

4) The Profitec...i dunno...seems pretty damn nice


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

Well I feel I am learning, even if I had been hoping for a quick consensus answer!

We are trying to get our heads round whether we are really up for spending over a grand...

We quite like the Lelit Mara!

I might look at the Profi300 properly tomorrow!


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

That covers it above really. Only thing to add is that small boilers on the entry level double boiler machines needs to be put in context: the piccino has two 300ml boilers the lelit single boiler has one 300ml boiler. So nothing to worry about.

As for the Profitec. Looks awesome but unless I am looking at the wrong machine it is £1400? That needs to be one hell of a mark down on the display model to bring it in budget.

Don't forget the grinder in all the excitement of buying a machine either. Just as, if not more important at this price point!


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Ask B.B. the price on their ex-demo Prof300. I am sure it was well south of £1k as it struck me as being a bargain. I wasn't concentrating on it tho so might be misremembering.

Definitely no consensus on the best way to spend £1k, which is one of the nice and rubbish things about espresso


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## brabzzz (Apr 14, 2017)

£900, from memory, with 12 months cover.

Love this way this has crept up from Silvia replacements to sensible 'machine-for-life' recommendations.

I dare say Mr. Monolith Londinium is looking down at me chuckling as we speak.


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## ohms (Jan 22, 2018)

Correct me if i'm wrong here, but doesn't the Fracino Piccino need to be sent away to be descaled? (as in, you can't do it yourself..). No HX and no PID means solid thermal stability is surely more of a pipe dream on the Piccino (and lower steam power).

Has the Cherub been considered too?


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

I have just seen a Nuova Simonelli Musica at the famous auction site. It has done 30 shots in total from new. It looks like a very good deal subject of bidding success.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

The Piccino does need to be returned for descaling yes.......however if you use the right water you virtually needn't worry about this. Even if you did factor in a couple of descales it is still a bargain.

Re Steaming power. Yes it wont be as powerful as a 3 litre HX but...... the OP was originally looking at the Silvia and the Lelit. The Fracino easily surpasses the Silvia in steam power (I've owned both). For the average home user I think the Fracino has plenty of power in reserve.

Personally as you suggest the Cherub might have been the way to go but I think the OP wants to keep the footprint as small as possible.


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Personally as you suggest the Cherub might have been the way to go but I think the OP wants to keep the footprint as small as possible.


The footprint is indeed important.

I want the best compromise between small machine and best coffee.

The Profitec 300 is, from what I can tell, just too big.

(The Fracino Cherub is also c£400 on top of the Piccino)

I like the Lelit Mara.

But, as we started this off thinking we were going to spend perhaps £700 on a Silvia/Mignon and that seems to have escalated north of £1000 we are thinking about it!

Annoyingly Nisbets don't keep the FP in store so I can't go along and see what it looks like...


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Nuova Simonelli Oscar II with opv is not a bad choice, I'm sure the Musica was bought from ebay from a user on here , could be wrong and was a bit dodgy.

Nuova

here


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

The Cherub can be had for a lot less than the retail. I am a distributor myself and I am in the process of becoming an advertiser on this forum. I can do a good deal on the cherub. I haven't mentioned this before as I am not yet an advertiser and don't want to breach rules plus I cannot get anywhere close to the Nisbets price on the Piccino anyway. They must be getting an awesome volume discount.

The Oscar is a great machine too. The Oscar 2 seems to have leapt up in price since I last looked at them however?


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Jony said:


> Nuova Simonelli Oscar II with opv is not a bad choice, I'm sure the Musica was bought from ebay from a user on here , could be wrong and was a bit dodgy.
> 
> Nuova
> 
> here


I have just seen the Musica this morning but did not follow it. I have just checked it is still there with one bid.


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## steelartsa (Feb 22, 2018)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> The Piccino does need to be returned for descaling yes.......however if you use the right water you virtually needn't worry about this. Even if you did factor in a couple of descales it is still a bargain.
> 
> Re Steaming power. Yes it wont be as powerful as a 3 litre HX but...... the OP was originally looking at the Silvia and the Lelit. The Fracino easily surpasses the Silvia in steam power (I've owned both). For the average home user I think the Fracino has plenty of power in reserve.
> 
> Personally as you suggest the Cherub might have been the way to go but I think the OP wants to keep the footprint as small as possible.


I'm a noob and considering upping the ante from my Dedica (even though at the moment to my taste it can produce a really nice long black) and was looking at the Piccino as a possibility. This descaling thing put me off a bit but, looking at a PDF of the manual, it seems as if provided one uses the filters correctly and replaces them regularly then descaling should be unnecessary. How true this is in the real world I wouldn't know but it's there in black and white.


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

I know the thread has been quiet for a while but I'd just like to thank everyone for their input.

We took a step back to think about what we actually wanted, as the costs had escalated somewhat.

Yesterday I went and picked up a lovely used HX machine from BB. We're slowly working out how to use it, and will hopefully get one of the new Mignons next month when they come in stock. For now we're using some pre-ground BB beans and are very happy.

I'll post pictures and thoughts soon, in a new thread.

Incredible service from Marko and Dave at Bella Barista.


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## beanere2long (May 11, 2018)

Very enjoyable thread!


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

beanere2long said:


> Very enjoyable thread!


 Explain then!


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