# Fast heat ups



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am in the market for a new coffee machine through enforced circumstances. The criteria would be:

Fast warm ups (meaning I can switch the machine off between cups. I am drinking far less coffee and it often sits all day for just one cup)

Not too noisy (open plan kitchen)

Definitely not plumbed in

Thats only three requirements but it knocks the vast majority of machines off the list. I am trying to think of machines that have the heating cartridge to aid warm ups. I can think of a Gaggia TS, the Strega (no thanks!) and the Sage DB. A rotary pump is quieter than a vibe but having had a Profitec 700 it did not impress me at all. Typically German, efficient but boring! What vibe pump machines are quiet?

I am not particularly restricted by space so anything around 35 cm wide is ok. I have looked at the Leilet Mara that DAveC reviewed and it is interesting but it does not get around the warm up problem or being bale to turn it on and off at will.

The only machine I can think of, is the one I do not want and thats a Sage DB. Can anyone help me?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I've been looking for exactly the same recently @dfk41: fast heat up time bring a top requirement. I like the idea of the Sage DB, but I'm unease due to the price and the fact that's a consumer machine. What happens when it breaks? Can you easily get spares and fix it? What about the cost?

And then I keep going back to the La Pav. So far that's the only one I would buy, due to simplicity and compact design.

In the mean time I've been using a V60 and a Moka pot with and Aerolatte.... not quite the same, I know, but I want to have a good evaluation before I make a final decision of my future setup.


----------



## Jacko112 (Oct 29, 2015)

It's something that I'm always looking for & currently looking at an izzo vivi but the fact it's a hx machine means it's going to take ages to warm up - something I don't have in the mornings. I really don't fancy the Sage range for the same reasons mentioned above so at the moment I'm sticking to the Zacconi, although the magpie in me wants something shinier!

Think I'll watch this thread with interest


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I've been looking for exactly the same recently @dfk41: fast heat up time bring a top requirement. I like the idea of the Sage DB, but I'm unease due to the price and the fact that's a consumer machine. What happens when it breaks? Can you easily get spares and fix it? What about the cost?
> 
> And then I keep going back to the La Pav. So far that's the only one I would buy, due to simplicity and compact design.
> 
> In the mean time I've been using a V60 and a Moka pot with and Aerolatte.... not quite the same, I know, but I want to have a good evaluation before I make a final decision of my future setup.


I am lucky, in as much as in my current life I enjoyed buying whatever kit I wanted without space restriction, the result being I have had most of what is out there, including La Pavs and the like. One of the things I need is the ability to make multiple cups every now and again, and there is the failing of the LP. The one machine I would have again is the Orchestrale Nota which is superb, except for heating up! Back to Catch 22.

I have had a couple of Sage DB machines and the truth is once out of warranty, then it is a bit of a lottery. Sage have one arm who are authorised to carry out all repairs and I have heard of very few times that they are not able to fix a machine.

The traditional coffee machine using standard industry parts will last forever, however, we buy a TV nowadays and once the warranty has expired and it breaks, we throw it away, so why should a coffee machine be different?

Lakeland offer a three year warranty and it may well be possible to buy a longer warranty through one of the stand alone warranty companies. Unfortunately, the DB does tick all the boxes except for longevity, but there are members on here who bought first release machines and they are still going strong, whereas one ex member got a first release machine nd it broke within warranty and was not replaced by Sage for reasons I cannot go into on here!


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Do you need to steam milk David?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

kennyboy993 said:


> Do you need to steam milk David?


Copiously!


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Profitec pro 300

Unsure on rebound time for multiple shots though


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Shame the "Decent" isn't available yet...


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

To add my previous - I reckon rebound on pro 300 should be quick for same reason it heats up quick


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

kennyboy993 said:


> Profitec pro 300
> 
> Unsure on rebound time for multiple shots though


So it is a db that allows you to switch off the steam boiler aka the 700. It claims a 5 minute heat up time but presumably that is if you only have the brew boiler on. If you switch on the steam boiler then I wonder what the time to come to working temp is? Any owners?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

the 300 looks interesting but i\ do not understand if they mean the boiler is at working temp in 5 minutes or the group is at working temp in 5 minutes


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

There's some good reading over on HB about it - including owner experienced start up times.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

kennyboy993 said:


> There's some good reading over on HB about it - including owner experienced start up times.


and for them I believe it is fitted with 2 x 800 watt elements due to the 110/115 restriction


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I found this from an old thread

I had a useful email conversation with a helpful engineer at Profitec yesterday. I asked him about the ring group head

"The Pro 300 has a group head where the coffee boiler is attached on the top. Advantages to this boiler are very fast in heat up ( 4 minutes) as direct material contact. Not like as on an E61 group head where the group heads gets heated by water circulation. But the E61 group head has of course other advantages."


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Have you looked at the Xenia? Not available in the UK yet but I'm sure that would be surmountable.

http://xenia.coffee/?lang=en


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Their thread on the forum seemed to come to a standstill.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rob666 said:


> Have you looked at the Xenia? Not available in the UK yet but I'm sure that would be surmountable.
> 
> http://xenia.coffee/?lang=en


i had a good look at them before xmas and the trouble is from the base price by the time you have added in the basics it becomes very expensive for an untried hx


----------



## barrymckenna (Oct 26, 2017)

I've been saving for the pro 300 for this very reason, unless I pick up something better second hand.

I know people are saying get a wifi plug for a HX machine but I had mates round unexpectedly yesterday. I offered tea straight away as I normally would but I if I had a HX rocket or similar, it would annoy me to have to wait 30 mins before it was ready


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

does anyone think that the preinfusion of a standard e61 actually adds anything to a shot. The 300 is not e61 and has nor preinfusion at all but to me, a tank fed e61 might preinfuse technically by definition but does it make any difference


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> does anyone think that the preinfusion of a standard e61 actually adds anything to a shot. The 300 is not e61 and has nor preinfusion at all but to me, a tank fed e61 might preinfuse technically by definition but does it make any difference


Well on a plumbed in e61 for me it's nothing more than a puck 'anti shock' mechanism - it all happens so quick.


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

MildredM said:


> Their thread on the forum seemed to come to a standstill.


I think this is because they have moved their base to Berlin and it is the show season.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

barrymckenna said:


> I've been saving for the pro 300 for this very reason, unless I pick up something better second hand.
> 
> I know people are saying get a wifi plug for a HX machine but I had mates round unexpectedly yesterday. I offered tea straight away as I normally would but I if I had a HX rocket or similar, it would annoy me to have to wait 30 mins before it was ready


If I replaced my machine now i may well have done the same.

Warm up time on e61 machine for the home is ridiculous really - and in my case it's nearly always just for one or two drinks a day.

Using a chunk or brass to maintain temp stability is seriously low tech isn't it - perhaps it's now pretty they look that keeps em going in prosumer market


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

so it seems to be a shootout between the 300 and the Sage......


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

kennyboy993 said:


> If I replaced my machine now i may well have done the same.
> 
> Warm up time on e61 machine for the home is ridiculous really - and in my case it's nearly always just for one or two drinks a day.
> 
> Using a chunk or brass to maintain temp stability is seriously low tech isn't it - perhaps it's now pretty they look that keeps em going in prosumer market


Of course it's pretty low tech but it is pretty and low tech doesn't always equal 'bad'. The problem is 21st century impatience. The massive lump of brass is quite a good way of providing reliable temperature stability if you don't mind waiting. If you do, then you need to investigate the more hi-tech answers.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rob666 said:


> Of course it's pretty low tech but it is pretty and low tech doesn't always equal 'bad'. The problem is 21st century impatience. The massive lump of brass is quite a good way of providing reliable temperature stability if you don't mind waiting. If you do, then you need to investigate the more hi-tech answers.


but that is based on the assumption you want to leave it switched on all day and pull multiple shots.......what if you want 2 cups a day, one morning, one afternoon.....what is king them?


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> i had a good look at them before xmas and the trouble is from the base price by the time you have added in the basics it becomes very expensive for an untried hx


There will be a dual boiler version this year and the higher spec HXs will be upgradeable. The prices don't look out of line with Rocket etc. let alone the Orchestrale Nota, and if their warm up times are to be believed it looks to me as if this answers your wish list.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rob666 said:


> There will be a dual boiler version this year and the higher spec HXs will be upgradeable. The prices don't look out of line with Rocket etc. let alone the Orchestrale Nota, and if their warm up times are to be believed it looks to me as if this answers your wish list.


The Nota is flipping expensive! i always say I will not be an early adopter again as i always suffer problems! That said, I do like kit which is not the norm


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> but that is based on the assumption you want to leave it switched on all day and pull multiple shots.......what if you want 2 cups a day, one morning, one afternoon.....what is king them?


I do find the Rocket HX warm up time a bit annoying sometimes. (We have a couple of flat whites in the morning and a flatty and espresso in the afternoon.) but it's only a problem when we have unexpected guests. At some point I will upgrade either to a lever (same warm up problem, well close) or to a Xenia. I like the sound of their solution with the electric head heaters. (Obviously I have no connection with the company!)


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Rob666

Xenia are saying 12 minutes to operating temp with the 100 watt cartridges but they also have 150 watts available


----------



## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

I'm also quite interested in the Profitec 300, I imagine I could use that when having guests and use the Portaspresso as the pressure profiling 'machine' aka lever







(it also does a declining temperature profile)

I'm a big fan of its design and I think it looks pretty good under the hood, looking at some videos and reviews, also the parts diagram is available

Based on user experience reported on various forums it seems there was a silent upgrade of its firmware, so for example when you brew and steam simultaneously, the steam boiler fill solenoid won't kick in.

The features missing are preheating of the brew boiler water input and pre-infusion (vibe-pump gradual pressure build-up could probably serve as a sort of pre-infusion)


----------



## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

I think you're going to struggle with whatever you buy after owning and using your last set up. Maybe get something like the profitec and a Pavoni for whenever you feel the need to satisfy the lever itch.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

been around the block too many times for hang ups! they all make coffee and if your field skills are good enough thats half the battle!


----------



## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Fair enough, second hand Gaggia TS or Spazialle S1?


----------



## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

I'm kinda in the same boat, as I'm also looking for a smallish, machine with fast heat up times, but unlike you i'm not in a hurry, so can easily wait for the Decent.

Unlike you I do have space restrictions and it kind of seems ridiculous to spend 2 grand on a machine or let it take up a substantial part of the counter space for the 1-2 shots a day, as I'm mostly into pour over.

Have owned a DB-61 although it where a perfectly fine machine it where boring both in usage as well as in taste, but I had a few HX E61 on trial, and honestly these never impressed me. Of all the machines I owned the T1 is still the best.

Have owned pretty much all none E61 DB under 2 grand and found them to pretty boring. The biggest benefit where faster heat up times than the classic E61. The Pro300 is the only one of these I haven't tried, so that might be different.


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> @Rob666
> 
> Xenia are saying 12 minutes to operating temp with the 100 watt cartridges but they also have 150 watts available


Hence my interest. I don't leave the machine on all day (unless I forget to turn it off...) so a quicker warm up would be definite advantage. I'm persuaded by the Xenia PR to at least take a closer look if and when they become available in the UK.


----------



## zeezaw (Nov 12, 2017)

I'm surprised the Bezzera BZ10 hasn't been mentioned, as it satisfies the three criteria.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

zeezaw said:


> I'm surprised the Bezzera BZ10 hasn't been mentioned, as it satisfies the three criteria.


Yes that's the other one I wanted to recommend but couldn't remember the name.

Electrically heated group head also


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rob666 said:


> Hence my interest. I don't leave the machine on all day (unless I forget to turn it off...) so a quicker warm up would be definite advantage. I'm persuaded by the Xenia PR to at least take a closer look if and when they become available in the UK.


I messaged Holger and this is his reply!

Hi David,

just send your order and we will add 'UK'.

You should consider that we have a delivery time of 3 month and a long backlog of binding orders. We try to produce the machine ealier, but it is not promised. It is really handmade and each machine is different.









Holger


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> I messaged Holger and this is his reply!
> 
> Hi David,
> 
> ...


You could nab a Sage something-or-other, order the Xenia, and in the meantime post your findings on the Sage


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MildredM said:


> You could nab a Sage something-or-other, order the Xenia, and in the meantime post your findings on the Sage


I have actually had a couple of Sage DB's Mildred. Apart from possible longevity issues, they are absolutely brilliant machines. the trouble is it is a bit like rallying a Mk 2 Escort Dropsnoot RS2000 then buying a Subaru. They are far faster and better but no pedigree. With the DB thanks to input from @Gary**** you can really fine tune them. Last one I had the power to the pump was reduced and the preinfusion time lengthened to 60 seconds and the result is a proper 6 bar shot. Even I, with my dead taste buds was finding flavours that I did not know existed.

I cannot think of another machine that lets you do this without going to Slayer type things


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> It is really handmade and each machine is different.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To me that says bloody expensive to fix if you need parts...









Sage sounds like a good option tbh, and iirc don't they have a built in programable timer thing to switch themselves on/off?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rhys said:


> To me that says bloody expensive to fix if you need parts...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


my son reliably tells me he programmes his to turn on each morning, though how flexible it is perhaps other owners can chip in and tell us. That said, it heats up so quickly by the time you open the fridge door it is ready (he says tongue in cheek!)


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> I messaged Holger and this is his reply!
> 
> Hi David,
> 
> ...


That's good to know! The suggestion to order one and get a Sage for the meantime sounds good to me.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Get an oracle touch David and spend more time in the classic RS ford


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

kennyboy993 said:


> Get an oracle touch David and spend more time in the classic RS ford


choices choices......I think I know what I am going to do......will think it over tonight then execute it tomorrow


----------



## zeezaw (Nov 12, 2017)

The new Bezzera Duo has PID-controlled heating cartridges in the group. Could be interesting.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

zeezaw said:


> The new Bezzera Duo has PID-controlled heating cartridges in the group. Could be interesting.


I had a Strega with them fitted. Pretty sure there used to be a design flaw with these ones whereby to replace beams an absolute pain but I cannot remember the detail. The Strega had the prettiest pf handles, till you touched them.....absolute grade two cheapest of the cheap !


----------



## zeezaw (Nov 12, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Pretty sure there used to be a design flaw with these ones whereby to replace beams an absolute pain but I cannot remember the detail.


Interesting, I've yet to hear or read of the heater cartridge failing on these. I researched it extensively prior to buying my BZ10 as there are no Bezzera authorised repairers nationally where I live. Doesn't mean it can't happen, of course.



dfk41 said:


> The Strega had the prettiest pf handles, till you touched them.....absolute grade two cheapest of the cheap !


The Snake logo handles are quite plasticky, granted---the standard ones certainly feel more solid. That wasn't one of your "three only requirements", though.









Looking forward to seeing what you're getting.


----------



## Bolta (May 11, 2014)

Fast heat up, quiet, stable temperatures, back to back shots, Slayer type shots, sounds like a Strietman CT1 would meet all those requirements. But for espresso only.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

zeezaw said:


> Interesting, I've yet to hear or read of the heater cartridge failing on these. I researched it extensively prior to buying my BZ10 as there are no Bezzera authorised repairers nationally where I live. Doesn't mean it can't happen, of course.
> 
> The Snake logo handles are quite plasticky, granted---the standard ones certainly feel more solid. That wasn't one of your "three only requirements", though.
> 
> ...


I have made my mind up, done some research on prices and taken a price match through Lakeland for another Sage. Been thinking long and hard about it. Have had a couple before so know what I am getting in to. The Profitec 300 was a serious contender but the others people mentioned did not really come into contention. I guess the end of the 3 year warranty is when I will know if I have done the right thing or not. I am not particularly into playing with settings for fun, but the 6 bar shots I used to pull on the Sage were as good as anything I managed


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Good choice.

If they ever made a plumbed in rotary I'm pretty sure I'd move to one.


----------



## barrymckenna (Oct 26, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> I have made my mind up, done some research on prices and taken a price match through Lakeland for another Sage. Been thinking long and hard about it. Have had a couple before so know what I am getting in to. The Profitec 300 was a serious contender but the others people mentioned did not really come into contention. I guess the end of the 3 year warranty is when I will know if I have done the right thing or not. I am not particularly into playing with settings for fun, but the 6 bar shots I used to pull on the Sage were as good as anything I managed


Dual boiler is it?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Yep



barrymckenna said:


> Dual boiler is it?


----------



## Inspector (Feb 23, 2017)

Good choice i think.

http://www.ecookshop.co.uk/ecookshop/product.asp?pid=BES920UK

Try lakeland to price match with these guys. Nothing to lose


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Inspector said:


> Good choice i think.
> 
> http://www.ecookshop.co.uk/ecookshop/product.asp?pid=BES920UK
> 
> Try lakeland to price match with these guys. Nothing to lose


I did, and they did!


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> I did, and they did!


Any idea what grinder you're gonna pair it with?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ashcroc said:


> Any idea what grinder you're gonna pair it with?


Nothing fancy! I have a K3 Touch that I will use until the Niche turns up. Thats the theory anyway but I do love my Titan grinders. Once I have moved perhaps a different perspective will let me move back to a biggie, but there again June is not that far away!


----------



## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

Any reason why you didn't consider the Oscar 2?



dfk41 said:


> I have made my mind up, done some research on prices and taken a price match through Lakeland for another Sage. Been thinking long and hard about it. Have had a couple before so know what I am getting in to. The Profitec 300 was a serious contender but the others people mentioned did not really come into contention. I guess the end of the 3 year warranty is when I will know if I have done the right thing or not. I am not particularly into playing with settings for fun, but the 6 bar shots I used to pull on the Sage were as good as anything I managed


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Tsangpa said:


> Any reason why you didn't consider the Oscar 2?


I did briefly but the Oscar has no hot water tap and I did not fancy an HX. I have had a couple of Sage DB's and as much as I used to the saying it, they are very respectable machines that have a lot of bells and whistles on them. They have a downside of course which is they are not a traditional machine in looks or components and have not been around long enough to have known staying power, but on the plus side, as long as it works what it does it does well


----------



## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

Hope the results are too much of a step down fro the Londinium


----------



## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

**aren't**


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Different results but in their own way quite acceptable


----------



## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Im pretty happy with my DB, as long as i don't change bean (but thats grinder faff) Even mrs Craig is finally getting involved, E5 is giving consistent doses, quick WDT swirl, eazytamp, button 1, et voila! COFFEEEEE


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mine has just arrived. It took 3 shots to dial in and at the same time increase the preinfusion and pump power giving 34 from 18 over 30 seconds. They have to be the easiest thing in the world to live with!


----------



## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

How quite is the pump on the Sage, some machines seem a lot louder than others.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

iroko said:


> How quite is the pump on the Sage, some machines seem a lot louder than others.


It is noisy on initial set up whilst it primes, after that as it seems well insulated it seems quite quiet, to me anyway


----------



## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> It is noisy on initial set up whilst it primes, after that as it seems well insulated it seems quite quiet, to me anyway


^^^ what he said


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Sounds like a good machine, can't say I've used one myself but heard good things about them.


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

I've read very little of this thread but - ignoring the noisy part - what about a NS Oscar II?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Jon said:


> I've read very little of this thread but - ignoring the noisy part - what about a NS Oscar II?


HX and no water arm.....and also not a patch on the Sage!


----------



## Jacko112 (Oct 29, 2015)

What sort of heat up time are seeing @dfk41 ?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The DB reaches 93 in about 3 30 or so but the group needs a little water through it. If you do not do that and just left it, probably 12 mins but I will time it


----------



## Jacko112 (Oct 29, 2015)

Wow that is pretty quick for a DB. When we move I may consider one, it's just the durability that concerns me a bit


----------



## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> The DB reaches 93 in about 3 30 or so but the group needs a little water through it. If you do not do that and just left it, probably 12 mins but I will time it


Same with the Oracle. I always run a cup of water through the head & PF before drawing the first shot of a session.


----------



## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

@dfk41 how you finding the dual boiler? I've come full circle and may be in the market for one due to sheer convenience.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ATZ said:


> @dfk41 how you finding the dual boiler? I've come full circle and may be in the market for one due to sheer convenience.


sheer convenience was exactly the reason I bought another. I am not drinking so much coffee these days, but still enjoy what I drink. It annoyed me to have a lever machine sitting there all day, using electricity up to sometimes pull one or just two shots. At the end of the day, you just need to decide what your main constraint in life is and deal with it....Sage won!


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> sheer convenience was exactly the reason I bought another. I am not drinking so much coffee these days, but still enjoy what I drink. It annoyed me to have a lever machine sitting there all day, using electricity up to sometimes pull one or just two shots. At the end of the day, you just need to decide what your main constraint in life is and deal with it....Sage won!


My my you've changed !


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> My my you've changed !


matured I prefer to think!


----------

