# Conflicting information on shot size



## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

I am just talking about a double espresso, and the engineer in me fully understands the shot should be weighed, as volume isn't easy to measure accurately especially with crema.

Most of the information on here indicates 16g of grind to produce 32g (ish) in around 25 (ish) seconds - am I correct in thinking Italian espresso is a much larger shot than this?

I recently visited a restaurant run by a Italian descent, champion barista, who produced a double that was considerably larger than that - of course I didn't have my scales with me, and even if I had, the looks from the other diners would have probably been too much, but I would think it was probably twice as much as would be recommended on here. I asked if it was 16g dry, but he told me it should be 14.

For a laugh, I have some of his beans - I wonder if I can make a coffee I prefer









I then looked on the Certified Italian Espresso website, as you do, which lists the following

Necessary portion of ground coffee 7 g ± 0,5

Exit temperature of water from the unit 88°C ± 2°C

Temperature of the drink in the cup 67°C ± 3°C

Percolation time 25 seconds ± 5 seconds

Millilitres in the cup (including froth) 25 ml ± 2,5

so for a double that would be 14g (as per my barista) and 50ml, which might be about 50g, roughly. Which is around what he produced

I know it's actually irrelevant, as the task is to make a good tasting coffee, but I am curious about the massive discrepancy.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Italians pah

For me - Double is the basket you use not a volume you make . The rest is as you say largely irrelevant .

Make what is tasty and called it Derek ...


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

Derek? That's a bean I've not tried yet


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Different places prefer different sizes and ratios of espressos

http://home.lamarzoccousa.com/brew-ratios-around-world/


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## PreCoffeeCantankerousness (Dec 14, 2014)

Different machines also have different sized baskets for doubles e.g. 14, 18, 21, etc

I experimented daily for many months and recorded a lot of information on every single shot as I was learning what I liked and fine tuning it.

It also varies with the bean.

But currently I'm 14g in a 14g basket, and 24g out. 10 seconds of pressure before anything comes out. 20 seconds later its starting to blonde and I pull away.

A nice, smooth rich shot the way I like it.

So my advice is to have fun experimenting and writing your own book!


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Some other information on shot sizes etc from a survey http://www.jimseven.com/2015/08/31/the-state-of-espresso-in-2015/


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Id say without fear of contradiction that 7 grams is the excepted single dose weight of grounds in the protafilter and thereon multiple of

7 grams is a single, 14 grams is a double and 21 grams is a triple.

anything inbetween those increments are between standard shot sizes, but are becoming more popular for whatever reason.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

For what its worth, most specialty places use a ratio that is AROUND 1:2. Half of that output is a single.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Make what is tasty and called it Derek ...


I've been calling mine Desmond, I'll have to re-think my entire naming routine.









I'm with Boots on making what tastes good. Doubling (no pun intended) the output is a good starting point though.

I've found darker roast tend to taste better pulled shorter (as a general rule) but not always the case.


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

PreCoffeeCantankerousness said:


> Different machines also have different sized baskets for doubles e.g. 14, 18, 21, etc
> 
> I experimented daily for many months and recorded a lot of information on every single shot as I was learning what I liked and fine tuning it.
> 
> ...


It's interesting, that one one hand the god shot depends on everything being spot on, and is tricky for even experienced coffeestas to achieve, and it appears that there is a knife edge sweet spot for shot weight, time, temp, etc - and on the other hand you can massively vary the grind and shot volume and just end up with an espresso from a different country.

at the moment, I can only control grind , dry weight, duration/wet weight. I'm going to add a pid soon, so will have temp to play with. and then a nice big table of results - so many variables, so little time







and beans....

I think initially I'll stick with 14g and 25 seconds, and vary the grind to get different weights out. Once i have temp control I can tweak my favorite settings. Spreadsheet time!


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Scotford said:


> For what its worth, most specialty places use a ratio that is AROUND 1:2. Half of that output is a single.


Would a double shot, at your establishment for example, be 14g dose input? If so, how did most of us at home arrive at 18g becoming a double?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

So there is my two pence (cents)... 

From what I've been reading over the past 3 years, there is a big difference between post second world war Italian (I am an Italian descendant myself) stale dark roast with robusta/arabica mix and speciality coffee. Speciality coffee tends to be roasted on a lighter side, and be 100% arabica beans (less crema than robusta?), hence the higher temperature preferred, around 93-96 degrees Celsius, for example.

I am no coffee connoisseur, but that seems to be the common opinion around speciality coffee.

Myself, for a typical speciality espresso blend, I try to stick to a 15g double yielding 30g in the cup. (1:2). That's what tastes better for me, IMHO.

Enjoy!


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

As mentioned before, for me it also depends on the machine and the basket size. With the Classic I was dosing 18g into approx 36g in 27s (+/- 5s depending on taste). With the lever I dose 15 or 16g depending on roast. Output is roughly 30g so 1:2 for both methods. With the lever though, I get a measured dose of water going through for the output, instead of using scales/time with a pump machine.


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## SeamusMcFlurry (Jul 9, 2008)

When I dial in a grinder I usually have a start point. As a general rule this is 18g in, 36g out over 30 seconds at 93 degrees. I'll taste that, and go from there. If it tastes like it needs more coffee then I'll up the dose to 19, and pull the same shot. If it has too much I'll lose a gram and pull the same shot. For me, brew ratios in espresso are much more of a guideline. I've pulled long espresso shots from low doses, and vice versa. It's all about individual coffees, how they're processed, and how they're roasted. To be honest, it doesn't even take that much coffee to get right, then you can write your brew recipe somewhere and pull a great shot every time!

Anyway, just my two cents from working a bar for a few years. I only make espresso at home during Christmas at my parents' house, so take everything I say and make it work in your context!

Also, in terms of temperature, if you CAN change that, I wouldn't recommend going above 94 degrees for anything other than black teas and oolongs. Coffee works best between 88 and 94 depending on roast, and to be honest, in the last four years, working exclusively with light roast coffees, I've never strayed lower than 92 or higher than 93.5.


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