# Grinder for both espresso and pour over/drip coffee?



## u12345 (Aug 8, 2018)

I am looking for a grinder that I can use both for espresso and pour over coffee.

I have this espresso machine Breville duo temp

https://www.breville.com/us/en/products/espresso/bes810.html

and I have looked at the Eureka Mignon silenzio

https://machina-coffee.co.uk/collections/eureka-domestic-grinders?page=1

which I have read should be really good except it's should be really difficult to change between grind levels, e.g when you want an espresso and when you want pour over.

is that true and is there some solution for this?


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

This question comes up quite a lot. The general advice is that the Mignon in theory *can* do both but changing back and forth in practice is just not practical.

So people tend to buy a good hand grinder for drip, and keep the Mignon for Espresso at which it is really designed for.

The other option depending on your budget is the Niche Zero which can go back and forth relatively easily.


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## u12345 (Aug 8, 2018)

Ok that was also what I was afraid of - that I need two grinders if buying the Eureka Mignon.

And there are not other alternatives in the 250-300£ price range - the Niche Zero you link to looks awesome but too expensive for my budget.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

The Sage Smart Grinder Pro can do both espresso and everything up to french press. I owned one for a while, but found that the espresso side of things was limited. They're quite reasonably priced and come for sale quite often on the forum.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

As Lake_m says, dialling back and forth soon becomes frustrating. It's impossible to get it back to the espresso grind. The Wilma svart is a good grinder for pour over


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

MildredM said:


> As Lake_m says, dialling back and forth soon becomes frustrating. It's impossible to get it back to the espresso grind. The Wilma svart is a good grinder for pour over


Not to mention a 2nd grinder will eventually pay for itself with the amount you save from purging when dialling back & forth.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The Sage grinder can be set back and forth pretty well. The main thing is to always make the final adjustment in the same direction. I used finer. So if going coarser go too coarse and then adjust to the actual finer setting. Using a Mazzer is similar except in that case go either way and rock the adjustment lever slightly side to side to centralise the ears on the burr carrier. The Mignon may or may not have some sort of foible in the same area. Big difference with Sage is that it shows numbers for settings. They can be a little iffy at times but with a bit of practice it's easy to spot that and repeat the adjustment - the numbers change at some rate when it's being adjusted - the final one may appear more quickly than usual. It doesn't pay to turn the knob too quickly.

Main limitation of the Sage as I see it is steps and not continuous adjustment. It wont last as long as a Mignon could either but I doubt if many or any home users need to worry about that too much. People did find a certain internal part could wear out after around 18 months of heavier home use on an earlier model - the part has been upgraded. One model wouldn't always reach espresso levels and could need shimming, the burrs are adjustable now.

Taste between it and flat - subtle but people will tell me that I must get a model with larger burrs. I may do one day so don't bother telling me.

Purging them isn't too bad coffee wise. Some whole beans can be picked out manually when the hopper is removed but there aren't that many so a purge might consist of shutting off the hopper and then running the grinder until it's empty. Then stick the new beans in the hopper and grind a shot. There will be some carry over from the previous bean. I drink it as the taste can be interesting but not possible to reproduce. The shot after that may still have a bit of the same taste. Next one after that highly unlikely. Worst I found was some vanilla flavoured beans. Couldn't detect the taste of vanilla on the 4th shot. The grinder has a certain amount of permanent retention and some carry over that soon goes. If it's cleaned the permanent needs to build up again before output gets stable.

When there is a huge change in grind settings there is probably some carry over with that as well. Normally when tuning for espresso grinds have to be wasted after a setting change to get rid if the grinds from the previous setting. I do know that on the grinder on the Barista Express from lots of 10g shots it would appear to be less than that







as i didn't think of the need to do this when I first started using it which caused a lot of repeat adjustments. The SGP due to certain differences probably needs to waste more than the BE.

It's also possible to weight beans in on the SGP. Personally even though it's a choir a grinder with a Mazzer style funnel is better for this than one with a spout on it as grinds are more likely to get trapped in a spout and be more difficult to get out. On a Sage grinds can build up on the exit from the grinds chamber. Lot less likely in the actual spout. I use a bean that comes heavily coated in oil and this happened to frequently for me. This is why I sold it. My Mazzer copes but needs 2 applications of the brush and the rubber lens hood mod. Tedious to say the least.







I'm going to switch to the hopper shortly and see what happens with that on.

Some of that may seem off topic but people new to them may not be very clear about the problems of using them. To be honest if starting again and not buying a machine with a built in grinder and wanting to keep costs down and now being aware of what people do with grinders I would probably buy a Quamar as it's suitable for all methods of use - adding a lens hood mod may not be as simple as it is on some Mazzers but I could cope with that. That then leaves the question of are they any good as grinders. It's stepped and does have a decent setting scale on it. How that would work over the full range of brewing methods pass.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> How that would work over the full range of brewing methods pass.
> 
> John
> 
> -


You could have just started with this?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Lots of comments here, so perhaps a different perspective. A Niche Zero will easily move from espresso to pour over, then back again with pretty much zero waste and no need to purge. A EM Silenzio is about £315 a Niche Zero at the moment is £440, that's a difference of £125.

With a Mignon, and most grinders with a hopper, unless modded and run hopperless (often then grind quality is impacted), you're going to have to purge some coffee to get the old out before you go to the new. The waste is even higher when trying to move grind settings, and some after opening for cleaning 18-36g can be wasted dialling them in again....we all know this. So lets take a conservative situation.

4 coffees per day average for a year.....with an average waste of 2.5g per grind based on dose variance and little discards to get the right weight+ purging. We are going to assume coffee at £6 per 250g bag (which is cheap) and no postage costs (which is unrealistic).

2.5g x 4 x 365 = 3.65 kg of coffee wasted....lets call it 14 x 250g bags (round it down). *Doing the complex mathematics we come to an amount of £84 per annum (it's a super conservative amount, I think it would be much more)*

With a Niche Zero the specific waste of coffee mentioned (2.5g per grind based on dose variance and little discards to get the right weight+ purging), simply doesn't exist, that 2.5g per grind, become 0g. This means that in 18 to months the extra £125 spent on the Niche Zero, has paid for itself, the Niche has become a cost neutral choice.

Even more interesting is that in 5 years 3 months, the saving in those two forms of coffee waste alone at £82 per annum, will have completely paid for the Niche Zero, it effectively becomes free!


At the end of 5 years your Mignon would have ground 150kg of coffee and in another 3 years you would probably be replacing the burrs.

The Niche will have ground 131kg of coffee and still have more than 23 years life left on the burrs


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

^^^ plus all those 15g/18g shots you dump because they are way off. Multiply that time after time and you've made inroads into your favourite new bag of [espresso] beans!

Two separate grinders or one Niche! And ajohn mentioned something about the Sage . . . .

I am starting to be tempted by the Niche myself


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

The other option is to buy the espresso grinder you want and then a hand grinder for pour over, with the added benefit of being able to take it on the road or to work.


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## u12345 (Aug 8, 2018)

Hm based on this video:






the eureka mignon specialita should actually be able to do both espresso and pour over anyone has experience with that?


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## Beeroclock (Aug 10, 2015)

u12345 said:


> Hm based on this video:


It's not really a question of whether it can do both but, how easy and consistent it is in practice. I found my mignon (mk2) not the greatest in this regard.

cheers Phil


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

u12345 said:


> Hm based on this video:


Any grinder that can do espresso can "do pourover". It's not whether they can/can't that is the problem, it's being able to quickly & easily get back to your espresso setting.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

u12345 said:


> Hm based on this video:


If Ben Piff says it to expertly produced sweeping video, shiny grinders and soft music....then it must be true? In fact the second grinder he mentions is the "best grinder he has ever used". If this is true and I have no reason to doubt a word of what Ben says, that comment might worry you. It's a great production though...way more professional that I could ever be bothered to do. Sounds like you like the Mignon and it is a decent grinder....not too expensive either. I used one extensively and liked it...it's a great entry level espresso grinder.

Have that cookie, buy the Mignon and pretty soon you will forget all this and feel just fine.....


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

ohh he is out


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MildredM said:


> ^^^ plus all those 15g/18g shots you dump because they are way off. Multiply that time after time and you've made inroads into your favourite new bag of [espresso] beans!
> 
> Two separate grinders or one Niche! And ajohn mentioned something about the Sage . . . .
> 
> I am starting to be tempted by the Niche myself


The Niche makes a lot of sense from several perspectives.







I have my own reasons for not buying one which i have mentioned before. Sage ? IMHO not as bad as some might suggest but yes it has limitations but in practice many grinders do one way or the other usage wise for home use and yes the Sage has some of those too, maybe not so badly as some.

My post was made with the perspective I had when I bought an espresso machine one difference to the OP though. I new that at some point I'd want 2 grinders as from experience I know that setting them up for a particular bean wont happen immediately. Like all I have drunk coffee in a number of places and I see someone poke a portafilter under a doser or spout on some grinder and pull a lever or press a button and out comes a dose. So I ran the Barista Express like that for some time. What I found was a need to keep adjusting the grind time to get the correct dose. Fortunately not that often once the grinder settled down. A little different to what I had seen in coffee shops. Then I find that many people weigh beans in. That way providing all of the grinds can be got out all of the doses will be the same. Obviously an attractive approach. The catch though is getting all of the grinds out.







I'm currently using 14.5g and always aim to get that out. Say I accept 14.3g several times on the trot. At some point the excess left in will either cause larger errors or suddenly pop out of the grinder. So IMHO it makes sense to pick a grinder where getting all of them out is likely to easy to do. I would hazard a guess that any newbie will want to try weighing in at some point what ever grinder they buy when they get the whole picture of pulling a shot at home. Some grinders make this easier than others. Mazzers for instance often finish up with a rubber lens hood fixed to them. An idea I hadn't heard about when I started. Quamar - a lot cheaper new but may not be so easy to fit a lens hood to it. Even it's dial markings may mean the need for repeated tuning steps when settings are changed.

Grinders can also be used with the hopper on. One way is to check the weight that finishes up in the portafilter and adjust if needed. Also I am told that once a grinder has had several kg of beans put through it timed doses will be more accurate and consistent. Depending on beans the hopper can also result in more clumping in the portafilter. The answer to that is to use something to break them up. Clumping lessens pretty quickly when a new grinder is conditioned. Even 750g of wasted beans makes a difference and in my case 1kg has made 2 grinder usable but it has to be said that this aspect continues to improve with use.

The other aspect is later upgrades - very likely on grinders. It doesn't make much sense to spend lots when some one has no idea about the complications of using them.

Perhaps the best option for the OP has been suggested. He likes the Mignon and counting turns of the knob to switch from one setting to another or using the markings on the knob if they go far enough could work out with some loss of coffee when tuning. He'll find out when he tries it. He could also then buy a hand grinder for pour over or a grinder that grinds into a container. The chances are that any burr grinder that uses a container will handle coarser grinds pretty well but will probably choke up if it can be modified to cover the entire espresso range. Lots of these machines are very similar internally who ever makes them.








One thing for sure until he settles on something and buys it he / she will have great difficulty making any coffee at all via any method. I think that many replies to questions like this aim at the asker achieving perfection from day one. I'm guilty too really. That can take people out of their budget range and it seems often does.

John

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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

> The other aspect is later upgrades - very likely on grinders. It doesn't make much sense to spend lots when some one has no idea about the complications of using them.


What complications, @ajohn?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MildredM said:


> What complications, @ajohn?
> 
> [/color]










Obviously none at all hence mentioning certain things associated with using them.

John

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MildredM said:


> What complications, @ajohn?
> 
> [/color]


I reckon he has been watching that video of the guy trying to use a Monolith..I know, I know it triggers @coffeechap every time I link to it....perhaps why I do it







However, whenever I need a good laugh (Sorry Matthew) I watch it. If I was Kafatek, I would give him a free grinder just to remove that video. Sadly on a youtube search for "kafatek monolith" it comes out at number 1 in the list!


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

ajohn said:


> Obviously none at all hence mentioning certain things associated with using them.
> 
> John
> 
> -


 LOL this is like one of those brain teasers . . . So, none at all . . . . Hence mentioning certain things . . . Never mind!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MildredM said:


> LOL this is like one of those brain teasers . . . So, none at all . . . . Hence mentioning certain things . . . Never mind!


Given the area I work in a problem is something to solve rather than worry about. At one point management decided that the word problem had bad vibes, the power of negative thought etc and might even cause things to go wrong and suggested that the word opportunities should be used. True fact is that the word probably caused them loss of sleep. The other aspect of course was what word to use if it was the other type of problem.








Grinders have many opportunities to be used in various ways to get round what happens when they are actually used. No harm in telling some one what some of those ways are.

John

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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I smell some more CB on this thread


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> Grinders have many opportunities to be used in various ways to get round what happens when they are actually used. No harm in telling some one what some of those ways are.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Can't argue with that. An EK43 is indeed heavy enough to be used as a doorstop.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Sorry JCB


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

coffeechap said:


> Sorry JCB


Wass that chap?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

John coffee [email protected][email protected]&£?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> John coffee [email protected][email protected]&£?


How on earth would you know one way or the other - actually it's true.

John

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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

ajohn said:


> Given the area I work in a problem is something to solve rather than worry about. At one point management decided that the word problem had bad vibes, the power of negative thought etc and might even cause things to go wrong and suggested that the word opportunities should be used. True fact is that the word probably caused them loss of sleep. The other aspect of course was what word to use if it was the other type of problem.


 What is this other type of problem. Sorry to seem dense, I am honestly interested.



> Grinders have many opportunities to be used in various ways to get round what happens when they are actually used. No harm in telling some one what some of those ways are.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Right. I think.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Simple, something that just wont work as it should what ever is done to it. It happens at times and can result doing what ever it is all over again from scratch or if research abandoned completely. What some do faced with that situation is say nothing and carry on while looking for another job.







One instance springs to mind - the company that the person worked for had to fork out a number of £ millions on a recall. This sort of thing doesn't happen very often but every time I hear of a recall I wonder if that was the cause but everybody makes a mistake or misses something at times.

John

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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

ajohn said:


> How on earth would you know one way or the other - actually it's true.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Oh more JCB keep it coming I love it


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## Aamz23 (Aug 20, 2018)

MWJB said:


> Any grinder that can do espresso can "do pourover". It's not whether they can/can't that is the problem, it's being able to quickly & easily get back to your espresso setting.


 Sorry to reup this thread and excuse my ignorance at never using a grinder before in tjis way (i have a sage BE) why is it difficult to change between brew methods? Can you not just note down what your grind setting is for espresso and then change to a V60/pour over grind?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Aamz23 said:


> Sorry to reup this thread and excuse my ignorance at never using a grinder before in tjis way (i have a sage BE) why is it difficult to change between brew methods? Can you not just note down what your grind setting is for espresso and then change to a V60/pour over grind?


 I'm not sure that the grinder on the BE will be able to switch between V60 & espresso without internal resetting of the top burr? V60 is the coarsest grind I use, with no overlap with espresso settings (say 350-450um average for espresso vs 700-900um for V60 as an illustration).

In theory, yes, you can do this but with any grinder that you can't adjust whilst running, you'll need to go finer in small increments to stop the burrs from binding against trapped articles. There's also possibly thread slop that may influence how repeatably you can go back & forth.

In most cases, people will prefer to keep one grinder set for espresso, making just small, necessary adjustments, keep a second grinder for V60. V60 doesn't really need any abnormal grinder qualities, regular adjustment once dialled in, or as fine adjustment/setting capability, so a grinder for V60 can be relatively cheap.


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