# Brand new cherub hissing, dropping pressure and reheating every 45 seconds?



## gwapenut

Hi

I've just taken delivery of a brand new cherub, but it doesn't seem quite right to me. Maybe some seasoned owners can help.

I switched it on, vented the steam, and let it heat for about 30 minutes. Now in its "steady state", every 45 seconds or so the pressure drops from just over 1 bar down to about 0.7 bar (the machine hisses at the start of this pressure drop, tails off towards the end), and then the red light comes on, pressure increases above 1 bar, light goes off, hissing starts, and pressure drops again - with the red light coming on and on off more than once every minute.

Seems to me like there is a leak somewhere...?

I've turned on and off the brew, steam, and hot water tap, closing them firmly, to rule them out ...

Thanks!


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## fatboyslim

That might be quite normal. That is just the pressure cycle of the Cherub. Until all the components are properly warmed up you might expect the element to switch on every minute or so.

Where did you purchase the Cherub from? You might want to talk to them about it just in case you need to return it.


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## gwapenut

Thanks fbs. Should it be hissing?

Have contacted the vendor, but it's early days yet.


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## fatboyslim

If it sounds within the boiler, I occasionally get a hissing type noise there but if it sounds more external its probably a leak. Have you tried making shots yet?


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## gwapenut

It sounds more internal, so it could be normal behaviour. Just seems a bit strange that the pressure will keep dropping from > 1 to 0.7 in 30 seconds or so. Haven't dared brew yet, until I can be more sure this is normal.


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## stub24

The Cherub I used to own would last for 1 min and 45 sec before switching on the heating element, sounds to me like the anti-vac valve might not be closing. I would try taking off the top cover and see if you can see any sign of a leak from any of the joints/fittings.


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## gwapenut

After an hour or so being on, the time interval has lengthened to about 75 seconds. It's in a fairly cold kitchen rather than a warm room. I'm beginning to think this may just be normal behaviour, so will keep an eye on it.


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## Mrboots2u

gwapenut said:


> After an hour or so being on, the time interval has lengthened to about 75 seconds. It's in a fairly cold kitchen rather than a warm room. I'm beginning to think this may just be normal behaviour, so will keep an eye on it.


Your machine group works via thermosyphon , so it's pretty normal .

75 seconds sounds about right

Don't worry about it .


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## espressotechno

Take the top off and listen / look for any steam leaks from either the anti-vac valve or the boiler safety valve.


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## Padder

I wouldn't have said it should be hissing. My heavenly cycles the heating element when the pressure/temperature drops but it just clicks on and then off. Is the hissing just water boiling like a kettle?

As has been said, take the top off and have a look inside for leaks. Possibly just something not tightened properly


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## 4515

All I get is the boiling noise and no noticeable hissing. Pressure stays constant too


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## gwapenut

My pressure definitely doesn't stay constant. Drops from just over 1 to 0.8 in about 30 seconds or so. I get the "boiling" noise when the red light is on, heating it up (as expected) but as soon as the red light goes off, the hissing starts.

I'll upload the video to youtube, which will be thrilling for you all, but I'd love to know if it does sound like other people's.

Thanks for the various bits of advice so far, don't feel comfortable opening it up as it is only a day old so I don't want to prejudice the warranty, and exchange of this one if this does turn out to be a problem.


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## gwapenut

Here's the link to the video... would appreciate any insight into whether the "hissing" noise is normal.


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## fatboyslim

Yeh ok I don't think that is normal and pressure looks like its dropping just slightly too fast. Its fairly easy taking the top off (or it is with old water tank design).

Might be worth taking a peek inside and see if you can spot anything.


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## Sharkie

I would say you have a problem for sure, sounds like it's leaking pressure somewhere. Mine has much more stable pressure and the only noise it makes is the heating element inside the boiler.


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## glevum

in its idle state it should not be dropping below 1.0bar. Great recovery on these machines thou'.


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## Jerry Thurston

I might be a newbie to the Coffee scene but I have dealt with steam for years.

Almost 100% a leak but only a tiny one.

1 bar is about 14.5 psi and yours is cycling at between .75 up to 1 bar and back again. so its only moving about 4psi. Not a vast amount so not a big leak

However, (and I must note that I am not an expert on coffee machines) I would contest that there shouldn't be any noise or that amount of pressure drop in 45 seconds or so.

Forgive me if I am teaching granny to suck eggs here...

This is a brand new machine, am I right? If so resist the screwdriver and first stop... Go back to the dealer that you bought the machine from and show them the problem

Failing that in my limited dealings with Fracino I have come to regard them as a great bunch of people... Give em a ring, there is a tech-dept perhaps even email the video.

hope this helps

jt


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## AliC

As the others have said, that's not right. Could just be a joint not tightened correctly.

I'd be on the phone to whoever you bought the machine from. However warranty is return to base so depending on what your time and car's fuel economy are like, you may just prefer to ring Fracino directly and take a little trip up to Brum. Their factory is only 5-6 mins off the M6.

I took my machine (5mths old) back to fix a fault with the low water sensor. After a few emails to book the machine in (just so that they new to expect me), I was shown to the workshop and they guys tinkered and scratched heads and fixed it while I watched.


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## gwapenut

Thanks all, Fracino have taken a look at the video and said it may be the anti-vac valve and may need a tap with a spanner, if I'm OK with them guiding me through this. Alternatively, I can return i for a back-to-base repair (wait for a repair on a brand new 1-day-old machine?)

I have a concern that if something is fickle enough to need a tap with a spanner, does this not bode well for long term reliability of that part?

I really appreciate all the input I've received, it's so difficult with new machines that look, sound and feel different to old machines, you just don't know if something's right or not. It sounds like from the advice here and now from Fracino themselves, it isn't right.


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## AliC

Jerry Thurston said:


> I might be a newbie to the Coffee scene but I have dealt with steam for years.
> 
> Almost 100% a leak but only a tiny one.
> 
> 1 bar is about 14.5 psi and yours is cycling at between .75 up to 1 bar and back again. so its only moving about 4psi. Not a vast amount so not a big leak
> 
> However, (and I must note that I am not an expert on coffee machines) I would contest that there shouldn't be any noise or that amount of pressure drop in 45 seconds or so.
> 
> Forgive me if I am teaching granny to suck eggs here...
> 
> This is a brand new machine, am I right? If so resist the screwdriver and first stop... Go back to the dealer that you bought the machine from and show them the problem
> 
> Failing that in my limited dealings with Fracino I have come to regard them as a great bunch of people... Give em a ring, there is a tech-dept perhaps even email the video.
> 
> hope this helps
> 
> jt


You obviously type faster than me JT.......


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## fatboyslim

gwapenut said:


> Thanks all, Fracino have taken a look at the video and said it may be the anti-vac valve and may need a tap with a spanner, if I'm OK with them guiding me through this. Alternatively, I can return i for a back-to-base repair (wait for a repair on a brand new 1-day-old machine?)
> 
> I have a concern that if something is fickle enough to need a tap with a spanner, does this not bode well for long term reliability of that part?
> 
> I really appreciate all the input I've received, it's so difficult with new machines that look, sound and feel different to old machines, you just don't know if something's right or not. It sounds like from the advice here and now from Fracino themselves, it isn't right.


I wouldn't worry too much about longevity. My machine has been flawless for almost 2 years now. Pressure and anti-vac valves are complicated so I won't pretend I understand but tapping with a spanner fixes most things


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## 4515

fatboyslim said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about longevity. My machine has been flawless for almost 2 years now. Pressure and anti-vac valves are complicated so I won't pretend I understand but tapping with a spanner fixes most things


Agreed

Mine hasnt missed a beat in the year that I've owned it


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## Mrboots2u

Sorting the anti vac out with a tap won't cause it any harm or ruin the longevity of the machine

it should be a relatively simple thing to do , if your happy to do it


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## gwapenut

OK, this is now looking better, thanks to you all for your help and support.

Fracino called me back and guided me through what I was looking for. Unusually, it turned out to be the safety pressure valve that was stuck slightly open. They thought that would need a return to base (in fact when I queried this, they did seem open to a replacement), but as a last resort I tapped it and it got rid of the hissing. I'm now on about a 90 second heating cycle, and the machine is an awful lot quieter and healthier sounding, so as long as it stays mended - and I suspect it will stay OK - then this is fixed.

I have to say, the support has been fab - from this forum, from Fracino themselves, and from Andy @ thecoffeebean who I bought this machine off (a very good deal for forum members that he advertised a couple of weeks ago by the way!). Andy has shown great willingness to get this sorted / organise a replacement, even when it was unclear whether it was newbie paranoia or a real problem. I only cross-posted here as I didn't want to be fobbed off by Fracino etc without getting some real views from real people, but I needn't have worried as everyone has been really helpful and receptive.

You never quite know how good a service you'll get when you buy a machine, as arranging a sale is one thing, but it is difficult getting the balance right between supporting customers and distinguishing from those who are either trying it on, or simply doing things wrong. I'm happy to report that Andy and Fracino both care about more than just making the sale, and I would happily recommend either of them.


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## glevum

great news...you can now enjoy your Cherub & your coffee.


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## fatboyslim

Yay! Glad you got it all sorted and you can finally enjoy your Cherub. Remove any lingering doubts about the quality of your machine. It is a true beast.

Fracino are great but everything costs ££££ when you're out of warranty. Glad Andy offers the kind of customer service I've come to expect from the coffee enthusiast industry (Has Bean, Baratza, Espresso Underground, Coffee Hit etc).


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## Jerry Thurston

Great news!

Clear any niggling doubts from your mind. Pressure relief valves / anti vacuum valves occasionally stick just a wee bit. Indeed the anti vac valve on my little gem occasionally fizzes and the merest nudge seats it perfectly. So long as you are respectful of the fact that you have several litres of above boiling point water in the boiler a little tap to help them to settle is perfectly ok.

I've seen decent sized steam locos getting a (very careful) rap on the safety valve to sort a persistent seating issue.


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## gwapenut

It certainly makes good coffee. Even though I've only had a few attempts, I'm already getting better results than from my Gaggia Classic, I think I went through a painful learning curve on that and seem a bit quicker to adapt with this one.

Steaming milk ...now that's another matter. Out of control does not even begin to describe it, and the tiny jug I got for the gaggia is not helping! Reluctant to get a new steam tip though, think I'd rather persevere with this one.


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## fatboyslim

gwapenut said:


> It certainly makes good coffee. Even though I've only had a few attempts, I'm already getting better results than from my Gaggia Classic, I think I went through a painful learning curve on that and seem a bit quicker to adapt with this one.
> 
> Steaming milk ...now that's another matter. Out of control does not even begin to describe it, and the tiny jug I got for the gaggia is not helping! Reluctant to get a new steam tip though, think I'd rather persevere with this one.


Either steam a larger quantity of milk or get a different steam wand tip. I personally use the 2-tip wand as I'm never in a particular rush or need to steam a particularly large amount of milk and I like the control I have with that tip. It'll be expensive to get it from Fracino as they charge a flat £10 postage fee but Andy might be able to hook you up?


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## coffeebean

The Cherub is basically a small commercial machine s the steam power is on a par with the machines you would get in a commercial environment. How much milk are you steaming at a time? Start with the wand tip just below the surface of the milk and tilt the jug slightly - I find if you position the wand towards the edge of the jug and get the milk to spin it shouldn't make a lot of noise (if it's spluttering all over the place put it slightly deeper) when you feel the jug starting to get warm put the steam wand deeper and you SHOULD get a lovely microfoam. If you do want a two hole tip, I can sort one out for you - will be a bit cheaper than getting it direct from Fracino. I'll check the price!

Andy


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## michaelg

If it's the stock 4x1.5mm then definitely change it say to the 4x1mm one unless you are steaming buckets of milk at a time!


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## espressotechno

The boiler safety valve is spring-loaded to stay closed, so once you've tapped it to stop the steam leak the valve will always remain closed. The only time it will open (usually with a bang !) is when the steam pressure exceeds 1.8 or 1.9 bar - usually when the pressure switch fails. But pressure switches last for years.........


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## gwapenut

Hi guys

Just a quick update - unfortunately the very next day the hissing returned (quieter), but growing day by day. A repair at base has therefore been arranged, all quite effiiciently, though of course I'm a little sad to own a brand new "repaired" machine. I didn't push Fracino hard for a straight swap, as that's quite wasteful for them and I'm guessing mine my would be reconditioned then someone else would, unwittingly, own a brand new "repaired" machine, which is even less fair.

On the plus side, I mentioned that I was after a new steam tip but had been put off by the delivery, and could they just bundle it in if I bought it -and if I understand right, I think they'll just throw one in as goodwill.

Am I right in thinking the one it ships with is 4x1.5mm, that the two hole tip is good when learning, but that the 4x1mm can be mastered and usefully used even for small quantities of milk for a single coffee? I started getting half decent results from the shipped tip, so I reckon I could tame the 4x1mm for single quantities of milk.

Which tip would people recommend given that I'm not too bad at the steaming, I mostly make one cup at a time, and can swap back the 4x1.5mm if I make larger quantities? I'm erring towards the 4x1mm.


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## Sharkie

I have both the two hole tip and the 4x1 mm tip and use almost exclusively the 4 hole tip.

As you said the two hole is great if you are new to steaming milk but now find it a little to slow even for small quantities of milk.


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## michaelg

The 4x1mm is really the best compromise - even for larger quantities. The 4x1.5mm is too hard to control I would say. With the new wand (which might be on your machine if new) has 4 x 1.2mm which is a lot better but I think 4x 1mm is best. 2x 1mm is painfully slow on the Cherub and I think doesn't produce any better microfoam as it struggles to get a proper whirlpool going.


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## Padder

Anyone know where I can get a 4 X 1mm tip for reasonable cost?


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## Jon V

Padder said:


> Anyone know where I can get a 4 X 1mm tip for reasonable cost?


http://www.espressounderground.co.uk/fracino%20steam%20valves.html

or

https://londiniumespresso.com/store/accessories/four-x-1-0mm-hole-steam-wand-tip-for-londinium-lever-espresso-machines

I believe that the steam wand design was recently changed. On one version the thread would be visible on the tip and not the wand and on the other vice versa so make sure you get the matching one!


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## Padder

Jon V said:


> http://www.espressounderground.co.uk/fracino%20steam%20valves.html
> 
> or
> 
> https://londiniumespresso.com/store/accessories/four-x-1-0mm-hole-steam-wand-tip-for-londinium-lever-espresso-machines
> 
> I believe that the steam wand design was recently changed. On one version the thread would be visible on the tip and not the wand and on the other vice versa so make sure you get the matching one!


Cheers. Still to expensive when you add in P&P. Espresso underground is more for P&P than the part is. £5.25 to send me a steam tip is crazy. I'll wait until I need more items so the postage cost doesn't seem as bad


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## Yes Row

I would ask them to throw in a naked PF or a single FOC for the inconvenience , they did when I had a delivery issue with mine. ( carrier had not been as careful as they should have been !)

Your issue is far worse than mine and you are allowing them to repair and not replace. I think you have been very reasonable on a. £650 bit if kit


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## gwapenut

Wow thank you Yes Row, they were very happy to oblige.

Well, I've now truly experienced the fab customer service everyone talks about, they recognise the inconvenience and don't take my ownership / time for granted. Not that I had to labour or complain about either of those points .... they just get it, without being told.

I've spoken to 3 different people there now, and they all seem a great bunch. It's so nice to deal with a reasonably big company which still has a human touch, and it completely overrides any niggling concerns I had about receiving a faulty machine - the fault is a rare one, just an unlucky roll of the dice, and I feel in safe hands.


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## Jon V

How's it going now gwapenut? Have you got the machine back yet?


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## gwapenut

Jon V said:


> How's it going now gwapenut? Have you got the machine back yet?


Hi Jon

The machine turned up yesterday, so not too shabby a turnaround at all. I'd called Fracino first thing Monday, it was picked up by DPD within a couple of hours, so all very efficient. My new goodwill bits and pieces should arrive next week.

One advantage of having it repaired rather than replaced is that I didn't have to spend an hour carefully peeling off the protective film.

The repaired machine is much better, even than when I thought I'd fixed it by tapping the valve - it's a good 1 3/4 minutes or so between cycles now, versus a previous best without hissing of less than a minute and a half.

So, was going to test it out this weekend before fully reporting, but it's looking much more promising. And good to know that the people at Fracino are a decent bunch, a refreshing change these days.

Just trying to work out what warmup time I really need now, having posted the question in the Wemo thread. I know Silvia etc benefit from 45 mins or so, but Fracino instructions just say to wait 10 mins, which could make the Wemo redundant?


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## fatboyslim

At a push you can warm the group up in 15 minutes by flushing about 2oz through group every 5 minutes or so. This is due to the thermosyphon design, taking time to equalise to the hot water coming from the boiler, speeding up the process of equalisation by using water from the heat exchanger to warm all that mental.

Its still best to leave it for a good 45 minutes when you have the time but like I said, it can be brought up to temperature sooner if necessary.


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## gwapenut

OK thanks, sounds like the Wemo will make life easier then.


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