# Cherub Soggy Pucks



## moonray (Aug 18, 2017)

Totally love my new Cherub. One thing I have noticed though is that the spent pucks are soaking wet. My old Gaggia Classic left them bone dry, and they went straight into the knock box, leaving the basket as clean as a whistle. Now I am left with a soggy mess each time, and have to wash the basket after each pull.

Is this a feature of the Cherub do you know, or do I perhaps have a fault here?

Best wishes,

Ray


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

moonray said:


> Totally love my new Cherub. One thing I have noticed though is that the spent pucks are soaking wet. My old Gaggia Classic left them bone dry, and they went straight into the knock box, leaving the basket as clean as a whistle. Now I am left with a soggy mess each time, and have to wash the basket after each pull.
> 
> Is this a feature of the Cherub do you know, or do I perhaps have a fault here?
> 
> ...


I hope you get a response from an actual cherub user (because I'm not), so my response is generic.

Apart from the inconvenience factor, wet pucks are sometimes unavoidable. With my E61 machine, if I were to prioritise taste above everything else, then it will be damp.

Combination of the basket, bean type, grind level, dose and then how it is tamped all play parts in the outcome.

I'm my case, there would be a thin layer of water on the puck as the portafilter is removed from the Grouphead, but by the time I've moved it to the knockbox, it would have been absorbed into the puck, but still way too wet for a solid puck to fall out. They break up, leaving bits stuck to the side of the basket.

I use a brush to flick them out.

Not that you should, but if you were to change priority order to make sure they fall out in one piece, leaving the basket dry and clean, try over dosing. Then tamp harder.

My experience seems to be, too knock out cleanly, that bigger baskets are easier than smaller. Also Ridgeless easier than ridged. Darker roasts easier than lighter. Coarser easier than finer.


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## moonray (Aug 18, 2017)

u2jewel said:


> Combination of the basket, bean type, grind level, dose and then how it is tamped all play parts in the outcome.


Thanks for your thoughts on this. You may well be right that I am doing something different with the Cherub owing to the way it produces coffee, such as adding less coffee to the basket and tamping down with less pressure. I had certainly not thought of that. I just understood that the 3 way solenoid valve thing was meant to keep the basket dry. But, as you say, it may be affected in a big way by the method I am now using to make espresso. And certainly flavour is paramount. If I have to have a soggy basket to get that, then "Long live the soggy basket"


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I'm not a cherub user either but own a Piccino. On that I've found that the dry puck aspect seems to be more variations tolerant than the machine I normally use, a Sage BE.

They seem to be caused by inadequate filling where I am sitting and also the dose seems to need closer control as the grinding gets finer. Under fill the double and both aspects get worse - slush if ground very fine. Fracino unlike Sage do make a ranges of basket sizes that can be used to fix that problem.

It's possible to see the output from the 3 way valve on these Fracino models. There is a stainless cover over it behind the grouphead and the spout sticks out of that. On a Piccino a puff of steam comes out of it when the boilers have heated up. Also fluid when the machine is back flushed - that should tell you if its working.

Your using an HX machine as well, same boiler for steam and brew - not sure how a Gaggia works. HX machines can need a flush to cool the brew water down before a shot is pulled. There seems to be some variation in this according to the maker though. All of the Fracino models have happy HX owners -







As far as I know anyyay.

From your post it sounds like you could need other basket sizes. Seems to be an odd aspect of the Sage world. No one seems to be aware of how essential they are.

John

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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

Don't get hung up on the state of your puck. Soggy pucks are quite common and don't really mean anything, as long as your coffee tastes good!


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Do you have a naked pf?

I used to suffer from soggy pucks. With the help of a naked pf and the lovely people on this forum I improved my technique and the pucks dried up.

That said I do sometimes get the occasional soggy puck.


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## moonray (Aug 18, 2017)

mmmatron said:


> Don't get hung up on the state of your puck. Soggy pucks are quite common and don't really mean anything, as long as your coffee tastes good!


Sigh. I am sure there is a "Soggy Puck" mindfulness technique I should be using


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## moonray (Aug 18, 2017)

igm45 said:


> Do you have a naked pf?


No, just a single & a double spout. It just seems odd to me that my old cheapy Gaggia produced dry pucks every time, no technique needed, but my fabulous Fracino Cherub needs special equipment and technique to do the same thing. I suppose you could say the Cherub gives one the freedom to fail







(


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

moonray said:


> No, just a single & a double spout. It just seems odd to me that my old cheapy Gaggia produced dry pucks every time, no technique needed, but my fabulous Fracino Cherub needs special equipment and technique to do the same thing. I suppose you could say the Cherub gives one the freedom to fail
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The filter baskets aren't very expensive. I like their shower plate brush and tamping mat as well.

http://www.fracino.com/accesories.html

John

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## moonray (Aug 18, 2017)

> The filter baskets aren't very expensive. I like their shower plate brush and tamping mat as well.


Thanks John. I will give that a shot. Gosh, I think I just made a pun!


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

moonray said:


> No, just a single & a double spout. It just seems odd to me that my old cheapy Gaggia produced dry pucks every time, no technique needed, but my fabulous Fracino Cherub needs special equipment and technique to do the same thing. I suppose you could say the Cherub gives one the freedom to fail
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Regardless of the soggy puck I'd recommend one.

Really helps produce a great cup and forces consistency


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## moonray (Aug 18, 2017)

ajohn said:


> The filter baskets aren't very expensive. I like their shower plate brush and tamping mat as well.
> 
> http://www.fracino.com/accesories.html
> 
> ...


I think I have found a retail example.

https://www.thebottomlesscoffeeshop.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=186&gclid=CjwKCAiAmb7RBRATEiwA7kS8VA_OXe6zKuGNmNu1LRKwKrh1gnzjuqXEj26zADIykD3zGkLeFKDOiBoCNk0QAvD_BwE

Is that the sort of thing?


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## moonray (Aug 18, 2017)

igm45 said:


> Regardless of the soggy puck I'd recommend one.
> 
> Really helps produce a great cup and forces consistency


That does seem to be the popular advice here. I will go ahead with that and see what I can achieve. Many thanks to you and everyone here for the excellent support.

Ray


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

moonray said:


> I think I have found a retail example.
> 
> https://www.thebottomlesscoffeeshop.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=186&gclid=CjwKCAiAmb7RBRATEiwA7kS8VA_OXe6zKuGNmNu1LRKwKrh1gnzjuqXEj26zADIykD3zGkLeFKDOiBoCNk0QAvD_BwE
> 
> Is that the sort of thing?


The after market portafilters are on amazon as well.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bottomless-Portafilter-FRACINO-Espresso-Machines/dp/B01EQ56PZ8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1513070999&sr=8-1&keywords=fracino+bottomless

A seller that posts every day and includes free delivery. Amazon try to get people to pay for more rapid delivery but just ignore the dates they suggest. Mine came pretty quickly. Lots of heavier items that state free are like that.

I find it very hard to believe that one of these will help with a soggy puck problem as there really isn't any reason why they should. I was more pointing you at the different basket sizes. If your using the 14g the 12g will probably solve your problem. It will also allow a different grinding profile. If you are using the 7, unlikely, it would be the 6. The baskets can be be bought from other sources as well. Maybe expresso undergound but a lot of suppliers are locked into offering only 7 and 14 that tend to suite the strong blends that commercial and restaurant users often use You wouldn't believe how black some parts of my Piccino were when I bought it. Hardly used and came of a bloke that owns 2 restaurants. It wouldn't surprise me if he used rather short shots as well.

John

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## moonray (Aug 18, 2017)

ajohn said:


> I find it very hard to believe that one of these will help with a soggy puck problem as there really isn't any reason why they should. I was more pointing you at the different basket sizes...


Thanks for the clarification. Being a novice, I was finding it all a bit hard to follow. So, the idea would be to have a slightly smaller basket each for single and double shots? With the the same amount of ground coffee as for the larger basket, or a little less?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

moonray said:


> Thanks for the clarification. Being a novice, I was finding it all a bit hard to follow. So, the idea would be to have a slightly smaller basket each for single and double shots? With the the same amount of ground coffee as for the larger basket, or a little less?


In a nutshell yes.








Beware though I am a relatively new espresso machine owner but sadly did know something about them when I bought one. When we went for a Sage BE I had spent ages looking for something similar that offered more basket sizes because I knew that they would be needed as so many different types of beans are available. Sage help a bit because both their single and double have larger capacity than the usual ones so weaker beans can be used to some extent but there is still a large gap in the sizes which for dry pucks rules some beans out completely. In fact I'd go as far as to say that an under filled double messes up the extraction anyway.

It's also possible to get round it another way. Grind coarser and add more but grinding coarser will increase the fill height anyway for the same weight if tamping is consistent. Or the other way if a fill is a bit weak -grind finer. That will all allow more coffee to be added to keep the fill height the same. I've just done that with the bean I use most. 9.3g went up to 9.6, maybe a bit more as I am still sorting it out. As that produces a pretty strong drink it's not hard to see what would happen if I filled their circa 16g double sensibly. Currently there is a slight film of water on top of the puck but it pops out ok. If I increase the grinds weight a touch that may disappear but if too much the taste will drop off. The film is there because it's harder for the 3 way effect to extract all of the water. If sage did one I'd probably be better off with a 12g basket. Then I might find a bean that ideally needed a 14g basket. There's no end to this really and maybe the sage double is ok a 14g. I know it's useless below that.

John

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## migralda (Nov 8, 2012)

I've had a Cherub for quite a few years, I use both a naked portafilter and a single spout with 18g VST baskets and a 58.5mm concept art tamper. I use a Eureka Zenith 65e grinder and do quite often get wet pucks, it seems to be more to do with the space between the top of the puck and the shower screen, finer grinds seem to tamp down more leaving a bigger gap and a wetter puck.

As others have commented it doesn't bother me or affect the taste of the coffee.


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## moonray (Aug 18, 2017)

migralda said:


> As others have commented it doesn't bother me or affect the taste of the coffee.


Thanks for the reassurance. That does seem to fit in with ajohn's theory regarding the size of basket. Presumably with a smaller basket there would be a smaller space between puck and shower screen for the same amount of coffee.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

moonray said:


> Thanks for the reassurance. That does seem to fit in with ajohn's theory regarding the size of basket. Presumably with a smaller basket there would be a smaller space between puck and shower screen for the same amount of coffee.


It's no theory. More fact. The other reason for different basket size is different sizes of drink as well.








If you want a theory - I like a Drink rather than a drink or something to sip so often finding myself needing to get maximum taste out of a bean. I've explained why that's tough on the smaller Sage machines. To get that it looks like the clearance above the tamped grounds needs to be just enough to allow them to nearly fully expand. Nearly because the puck will stick to the shower screen if there is too much space.

Soggy pucks mess things up when several drinks are made on the trot. I suppose they could be swilled away with boiling water to keep heat in the portafilter or a cool portafilter could be used and washed each time a shot is pulled. It's so much easier if the majority just pops out maybe leaving minimal grounds. That's how it should be. Personally I would rather have a full set of Fracino baskets than one single VST. I'd only go elsewhere for different sizes if I found that they were needed.

John

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## moonray (Aug 18, 2017)

ajohn said:


> It's no theory. More fact.


It's a theory that also works in practice. I think they call that science


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