# Puck breaking when knocking out



## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

Hi all

When I knock out the puck, it never comes out smoothly. It comes apart like in the pics. What is causing that?

Also noticed that parts look dry. The naked PF looks good (as far as I can tell) and I don't see any channelling. Is that just an optical illusion or can that happen and still show an OK pour?

Thanks. Alan


----------



## webdoc (Jan 22, 2019)

I doubt you not having channeling, from the looks of it, there has to be plenty. Could you upload a picture or video?

How do you distribute and tamp? What basket do you use? What is the tamper size?


----------



## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

AlanB1976 said:


> Hi all
> 
> When I knock out the puck, it never comes out smoothly. It comes apart like in the pics. What is causing that?
> 
> ...


 Videos of your naked pull will be the best option at this point to see if there is any channelling. Do you know how long it takes for the espresso to blonde?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

AlanB1976 said:


> Hi all
> 
> When I knock out the puck, it never comes out smoothly. It comes apart like in the pics. What is causing that?
> 
> ...


 Focus on making coffee not pucks.

If it tastes good then does it matter?

Personally focussing on blonding for me is not an accurate way of diagnosing a pull or a puck but up to you.


----------



## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

Thanks for the replies. I'll try make a video this weekend. Not all of them show the different coloured grinds but pretty much all of them don't knock out nicely.

I'm using a 15g VST basket. This happens at doses of 15 and 14g. My distribution consists of briefly using my finger (stocksomething method), a brief tap or 2 and then using a wedge distribution tool. Following that i tamp using the sage tamper (58mm?). I may be tamping a bit hard as my flow was slightly fast (very slightly) and a harder tamp seemed to sort it. I'm pulling 28g (from 14g dose) over 26s.

The taste is fine (but don't have enough experience to know if it can be better) but the puck is annoying me when I'm making more than 1 drink, as I have to wash the basket (instead of possibly just wiping), then heat it up again.


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

How are you knocking the puck out? Vid of that too, please


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

AlanB1976 said:


> Thanks for the replies. I'll try make a video this weekend. Not all of them show the different coloured grinds but pretty much all of them don't knock out nicely.
> 
> I'm using a 15g VST basket. This happens at doses of 15 and 14g. My distribution consists of briefly using my finger (stocksomething method), a brief tap or 2 and then using a wedge distribution tool. Following that i tamp using the sage tamper (58mm?). I may be tamping a bit hard as my flow was slightly fast (very slightly) and a harder tamp seemed to sort it. I'm pulling 28g (from 14g dose) over 26s.
> 
> The taste is fine (but don't have enough experience to know if it can be better) but the puck is annoying me when I'm making more than 1 drink, as I have to wash the basket (instead of possibly just wiping), then heat it up again.


 Advice. Don't use tamp to drive flow, taste , use dose or grind. Preferably grind.

Why use a finger and a wedge. Try a few sideways taps to get the coffee even the use your wedge.

14 g in a 15g basket is going to be a very fine grind indeed, and I hate to guess but I suspect your clogging the basket flow a little, some channeling but you say no channeling.

A vid of extraction would help us diagnose this though.


----------



## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Stockfleth method (the finger method) is OK but can still cause uneven distribution. Personally I tend to grind into a catch cup, may WDT in the catch cup, not always though. And then tip into the portafilter (I have a knock off LWW Tumbler - it's quite good to be fair). Then knock down on the worktop a few times (vertical, not side taps), and then use my distributor and a light push on the tamper with a polish on just the tamper weight.

Everyone's method varies slightly but people find what works for them. What grinder are you using? Could consistency be an issue?


----------



## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

I'm using a 18g ridgeless VST and I find that if you leave the portafilter in the machine for a length if time after extracting then bits of the puck tend to stick more. Never had this issue with the La Spaz 53mm setup.

If I bash it out immediately then it comes out fine.

But looking at that photo you have a channeling problem for sure. The bottom of the puck is getting no flow at all. I'm surprised it's tasting OK to be honest.


----------



## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

I've only got the Sage smart grinder pro. As far an my aging eyes can see, it's fairly consistent but a lot of grind comes out in clumps, which are easily broken apart but I worry about dense pockets. However, I did read an article where they mentioned that if the clumps break apart on a light touch, then tamping would solve that issue.

I found that using my finger helped in levelling the mound from the grinder initially (I don't have a cup to grind in to). This was only for the heap on top and not looking to level the entire basket as grind level was too low in the basket to be consistent. Then, I read in some articles that tapping was a good way of levelling, specially with the grinds below eye sight, so figure a couple taps wouldn't hurt. My tapping is not that great so wouldn't trust it completely and hence, the distribution tool comes in.

I'm dosing to 14g as I worry about caffeine levels. I have about 5 cups a day and with each being 15g, don't feel the best come the end of the day. I'm planning on trying some decaf roasts in the future. I would like the option of using a 12g basket for some drinks but every 12g I've tried doesn't work for me (terrible channelling). I've tried the Sage single, IMS "the single" and 2 other no-name types. Not one has worked for me (although I do admit this is a lot to do with me still being new). I'm also too poor at the moment to try others or always use a 22g basket split to 2 and throw one away half the time.

I'll take a vid this weekend so it can hopefully give some insight to what I'm doing wrong.


----------



## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

lake_m said:


> If I ﻿bash it out immediately then it comes out fine.


 It does sit there for a little while why I sort other stuff out, so that may be the problem to the puck breaking


----------



## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Try the catch cup method. Grind into the cup and give it a damn good stir or shake.

I had terrible channeling problems with the SG pro on fine grind settings.

Start saving for a better grinder ?


----------



## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

lake_m said:


> Start﻿ saving for a better ﻿grinder ?


 Definitely, but that is a while away. Before starting this journey I would never have believed grinders would be so expensive. I thought a good grinder would be like £200 ?

Doesn't help that between me knocking my car ? and the wife's dental bill, any savings have been thrown in the bin.


----------



## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

In terms of cups, which type of the below is recommended? The first seems nice in that it doubles as a funnel but not sure how well it works in that it's not a cup you can shake around without bits moving and losing grinds.

Not that I can afford anything at the moment (will probably have to use a yogurt container) but I like to dream.


----------



## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

AlanB1976 said:


> In terms of cups, which type of the below is recommended? The first seems nice in that it doubles as a funnel but not sure how well it works in that it's not a cup you can shake around without bits moving and losing grinds.
> 
> Not that I can afford anything at the moment (will probably have to use a yogurt container) but I like to dream.


 I had good results with the top one. Was about £13 from fleabay. The second one I have just bought so am still using it and figuring out what best to do with it.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

AlanB1976 said:


> Hi all
> 
> When I knock out the puck, it never comes out smoothly. It comes apart like in the pics. What is causing that?
> 
> ...


 A bit of superglue will help keep the puck together.......and then it will either come out in one piece....or it won't come out at all.


----------



## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

And I can enjoy a nice cup of coffee with a free high


----------



## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> A bit of superglue will help keep the puck together.......and then it will either come out in one piece....or it won't come out at all.


 A much safer suggestion is put it in the freezer Dave - you should know that. 



AlanB1976 said:


> It does sit there for a little while why I sort other stuff out, so that may be the problem to the puck breaking


 If you have a single boiler, leaving the PF attached while you steam will dry out the puck as it heats up. Try knocking it out straight away. It only takes a few seconds, see if that makes a difference.

I found after upgrading to a VST basket i found a number of things changed for the better. :good:


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I don't think I'd worry about your puck not coming out clean. I have to give my Speedster portafilter a wash every-time as I never get a clean knock-out, and I'm fastidious with my prep so I get no channeling or spritzers. Saying that my La Pavoni pucks come out clean every-time as did the Sage BE ones and all I do with them is Tamp.

I use a yoghurt pot on my La Pav PF and grind direct into it with my Niche. The Niche cup lives on my EK and I use that with my Kees. I guess it's down to what you prefer and what works for you.

You could even try the AeroPress filter method, but it's a bit of a faff tbh.


----------



## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

Ok, below are videos of my prep and of the extraction. Any issues with it, please let me know (in a nice constructive manner). The puck is still breaking but not as bad as before when I take it out straight away. Although it still looks like there are grinds that are different colours.

I am planning on using a cup to break the clumps in the future.

What doesn't come out too good in the video of the prep is that after the tamp there are some grinds on the side since the tamp is the default sage at 58mm. In the video it looks like a gap.


----------



## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

AlanB1976 said:


> Ok, below are videos of my prep and of the extraction. Any issues with it, please let me know (in a nice constructive manner). The puck is still breaking but not as bad as before when I take it out straight away. Although it still looks like there are grinds that are different colours.
> I am planning on using a cup to break the clumps in the future.
> What doesn't come out too good in the video of the prep is that after the tamp there are some grinds on the side since the tamp is the default sage at 58mm. In the video it looks like a gap.
> 
> ...


In my opinion you have nothing to worry about.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Are you using a Sage machine as well - which one if so.

John

-


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

KTD said:


> In my opinion you have nothing to worry about.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 This.....

Make coffee not pucks....


----------



## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

ajohn said:


> Are﻿ you using a Sage machine as well - ﻿which one if so﻿.


 The dual boiler and the grinder is the smart grinder pro. I know they are not the best but I'm very happy with them at the moment



KTD said:


> n my opinion you have nothing to worry about.


 Thanks. Good to know.


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I personally don't like a messy puck, but I don't like mess Full Stop. I'm it sure I can offer any advice really, try giving it half a minute after the shot maybe? But then if you want to crack on with the second cup that isn't an option probably. A harder 'knock' maybe ?


----------



## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

It's always interesting to watch how others prep, i don't think i'd seen a left handed prep before - lol

Everyone is different, I certainly knock mine out with a bit more oomph.

i'd be happy with how that shot looked, and if it tastes ok that is the main thing. If it comes out clean and tastes less good that's a backwards step.

Is it always "sticking" in the same place? Is that where you see the grinds sticking (at 2 o'clock in the video) ?

I didn't notice anything negative tbh maybe try some experiments - try tamping with the PF flat on the counter or a bit of North South East West, or no levelling tool or reduce its height, change or rotate the basket. If nothing works there is the kettle. :good:


----------



## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

Does this count as coming out in one piece? ?


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

catpuccino said:


> Does this count as coming out in one piece?
> 
> <img alt="20190824_194642.thumb.jpg.65188301bd5a152991916629ebf7c6ab.jpg" data-fileid="31846" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_08/20190824_194642.thumb.jpg.65188301bd5a152991916629ebf7c6ab.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


A quick blip on the handle should dislodge it.


----------



## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

Agentb said:


> It's always interesting to watch how others prep, i don't think i'd seen a left handed prep before


 Haha.... It's actually not left handed. I was filming through the front camera of my Samsung which always flips the screen (I don't know why). So everything was reversed


----------



## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

catpuccino said:


> Does this count as coming out in one piece? ?
> 
> View attachment 31846
> ...


 Haha.... I've had similar before. Annoys the hell out of me as I never get it clean away and it ends up looking like someone took a [email protected] on my drip tray


----------



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

If your using a Sage DB you will probably find the a 15g VST needs more grinds than that in it. Might be 2 or more grams.

Personally I wouldn't be at all happy with the 2 tone remains shown in one of the shots - looks like water may not even have flowed through part of it going on the colour. I'd expect the flow out of the poratfilter to settle down more quickly as well. I like to see straight into one single flow but at times 2 briefly going to one do crop up.

Your getting a rather wet puck too - indicating that grinding is probably finer than it need be. The DB 3 way really "sucks" in more ways than one. If it's a decent puck it's very likely to suck a thin skin off in places. What it's unlikely to do is leave water behind.  Unless it in serious need of a back flush.

Couple of things I'd suggest. Tap the portafilter down on the mat to settle the grinds. Light clumps will mostly break up just from that but as you say if a very light touch breaks them up they are probably ok. It;s still worth trying forgetting that and going straight to levelling and then tamping.

If you have read about light tamping forget it for while and strain. A light tamp is something like 10kg which can feel pretty heavy.

Getting fill heights perfect on a DB is no fun. I'd suggest checking what the razor tool leaves and using that as a basis. May well be ideal with a little less. I find that variations of a 1/4g can make a difference especially in terms of the puck not sticking to the shower screen.

I use a chisel type levelling tool as well. As with the other type the idea is to level not tamp. Don't set it too deep.

Most problems crop up because people just do the same thing over and over again  they may not even know they have a problem. You do. The obvious thing to vary in your case is the weight of grinds. Also possibly tamping. When the water goes in the grinds expand. It's a pretty crucial period. In an ideal world there would just be enough space above the grinds for them to fully expand. In practice it will often have to be a bit less or more. Sort one bean out and a change is likely to need something different. If you ever get to a point where shot times and outputs get rather consistent you'll soon realise that just about anything you do to the grinds will alter the output. So in an ideal world you would have a nice central heap of grinds in the portafilter, use the chisel tool and then tamp and that would be that. Smooth things out, bang the portafilter about, stir up the grinds etc etc and that moves into an area where you can't reliably do the same thing every time so shot times / output will vary more than they need do. What this means is try and keep it as simple a you can. If you don't work for a while like that there is no way of knowing if any changes made are beneficial or otherwise.

John

-


----------

