# Regular back-flushing, de-scaling and lubrication of e61 groups



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Hello there,

Not sure whether this has been covered anywhere else, so apologies if it has. As I am new to this type of machine, I am seeking advice from experts members of this forum on the topic of general maintenance.

1) How often should I chemically backflush an e61 machine? I backflush with water every other shot.

2) When you chemically backflush, how often would you then lubricate the insides of the group?

3) when you descale the machine, do you also take the group apart and lubricate it?

Thanks!


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Interesting questions! I think backflushing every other shot is a little excessive. Once a day is probably enough.

Chemical backflushing once a month for domestic use. If the group is relatively new you shouldn't need to lubricate after chemical backflush. It might squeak for a few cycles but the brass is self lubricating.

When I descale, yes I do take the group apart and lubricate the bearing surfaces. Not at all sure it's worthwhile.

Hopefully Dave will be along in a while and give the definitive answers.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

That's an awful lot of wasted water if you're using bottled and back flushing after every other shot. Seems excessive to me too.

Have you considered changing the stock shower screen to an IMS integrated competition one? Because of its fine weave there is less chance of coffee grounds being sucked up behind it and therefore should require less cleaning.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Rob666 said:


> I think backflushing every other shot is a little excessive.





DoubleShot said:


> That's an awful lot of wasted water if you're using bottled and back flushing after every other shot. Seems excessive to me too.
> 
> Have you considered changing the stock shower screen to an IMS integrated competition one?


Yep, ordered one last night, should arrive in the post tomorrow.

I make one drink before going to work, or two when I work from home or at the weekend. Will backflush every 3 days or so then.


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

With that usage every couple of days should be fine.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Something quick and easy that you can do to check if indeed a backflush is even necessary is to flush some water through the group head directly into a clean cup. If you see any fines in the bottom...you would benefit from backflushing.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DoubleShot said:


> Have you considered changing the stock shower screen to an IMS integrated competition one?


What a difference! No coffee grinds trapped. A quick rinse and it's clean. Brilliant!


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

I've mentioned how impressed I've been since switching to an IMS competition shower screen on a few threads. Well worth the small investment imo.


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

I'm using one too and I agree! I think it also reduces channelling.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

If you haven't already lubed the insides of the group this might be useful.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

After pushing the "cam" out of the barrel, twist the corner of a piece of kitchen roll into a spiral and push it through the barrel, gently pull through twisting as you do. This will clean out stale grease and black seal residue prior to applying fresh grease with cotton bud and lightly lubricating shaft adjacent to threaded end.


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

I have backflushed my Classic in the past with Caviza, but recently I had my machine serviced at my local Gaggia service centre and got talking to a couple of their service engineers and they said a resounding no, no to chemical backflushing as it could potentially force any particles of crap further into the machine. They said to put a sachet of Puly machine cleaner into the water tank and half fill it with warm water so the crystals were full dissolved. Take off the dispersion plate and shower screen. Give them a soak in a separate bowl with some cleaner in. For the machine itself they recommended switching on the pump and flushing some of the solution through the machine then switch it off for 20 mins while the solution goes to work inside the machine. After that continue to flush more of the solution through the machine (they recommended a cup full) then switch it off for a further 5 mins. Continue doing this until all the solution is gone. Wash the water tank thoroughly and fill with fresh clean water and purge it through the whole system including the steam wand until all the residue of the cleaner is gone. Rinse the dispersion plate and shower screen and re-assemble. Brew a coffee and throw away then you are good to go again. Maybe a bit long winded, but it may save any unnecessary damage to the delicate internals of your machine. I have owned my Classic for 6 years and it has had a shed load of coffee through it in this time and with a little bit of maintenance it should serve me for a good few years to come.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Not sure if I want to put any chemicals inside my boilers... Citric acid (food grade) for descaling is as far as I would go. Also let's not forget that the boiler of the Gaggia Classic is 100ml, so very small to flush and rinse. Also, the Gaggia Classic is an manual filled SBDU machine so the boiler can be fully filled up and consequently rinsed thoroughly with ease. Most of the e-61 machines will be HX or Dual Boilers, which have considerably larger boilers and, in the case of an HX or a the steam boiler in a Dual Boiler, it will only be over half filled. The descaling / cleaning routine of a Gaggia Classic compared to an e61 is very very different.


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## paul whu (Sep 25, 2014)

I backflush with no chemicals about every 4th cup. Chemically backflush evey second kilo or if I'm switching to a lighter bean. I always seem to get plenty of crap out of it and I am convinced the cleaning is necessary from a flavour perspective.

I have so far never lubricated the group. I have bought the machine secondhand from Rob666 maybe 9 months ago. I don't feel as though I'm mistreating the machine because there is no noticeable stiffness to the lever.

I'm a little concerned having read this. Do I need to get lubng to avoid future issues?


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

pessutojr said:


> Hello there,
> 
> Not sure whether this has been covered anywhere else, so apologies if it has. As I am new to this type of machine, I am seeking advice from experts members of this forum on the topic of general maintenance.
> 
> ...


1: an E61 group is not something you want to chemical backflush to often, unless you like to lubricate the cam etc. on a very regular basis. The normal advice is once every month or every third month, depending on use.

2: every time you chemical backflush, the cam should be lubricated.

3: you shouldn't run allot of descaler through the group, so better that you avoid to hard water. So either you drain the boilers through the drainplug or remove either a tube, vaccumbreaker to get access to the boiler(s) then drain them from their and fill with a descaling solution, and rise with plain water.


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## paul whu (Sep 25, 2014)

malling said:


> 1: an E61 group is not something you want to chemical backflush to often, unless you like to lubricate the cam etc. on a very regular basis. The normal advice is once every month or every third month, depending on use.
> 
> 2: every time you chemical backflush, the cam should be lubricated.
> 
> 3: you shouldn't run allot of descaler through the group, so better that you avoid to hard water. So either you drain the boilers through the drainplug or remove either a tube, vaccumbreaker to get access to the boiler(s) then drain them from their and fill with a descaling solution, and rise with plain water.


Just wondering what the point of dismantling it all is if there is actually no stiffness in the lever whatsoever? Surely there is no chance of things seizing up without at least a symptom of stickiness?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

paul whu said:


> Just wondering what the point of dismantling it all is if there is actually no stiffness in the lever whatsoever? Surely there is no chance of things seizing up without at least a symptom of stickiness?


The Pins wear far more quickly, even if it doesn't feel particularly stiff, then suddenly the notchiness...but by then it's far too late.

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/e61-lubrication


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

malling said:


> 3: you shouldn't run allot of descaler through the group, so better that you avoid to hard water. So either you drain the boilers through the drainplug or remove either a tube, vaccumbreaker to get access to the boiler(s) then drain them from their and fill with a descaling solution, and rise with plain water.


Thanks.

Currently using Tesco's Ashbeck, which seems to be the water a lot of the members of this forum use when using bottled water. Hopefully that's good enough to avoid scaling.

Unfortunately my machine (Profitec 700) is not equipped with drain tubes. When you say "remove either a tube, vacuum-breaker", are you saying that I could drain the machine from there? How hard is it to put it back? Would I need to replace anything in the process, like a gasket or something? (Sorry I am not very familiar with these machines, so any advice is highly appreciated).

And when you mention that I shouldn't run a lot of descaler through the group: Do I run at least some to descale the pipes that lead from the boiler to the group and the group itself?

Thank you.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

pessutojr said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Currently using Tesco's Ashbeck, which seems to be the water a lot of the members of this forum use when using bottled water. Hopefully that's good enough to avoid scaling.
> 
> ...


Yes I'm saying you should drain it from there, I usually just vacuum it out, something I have done on most machines I have owned, it works far better and are less risky procedure then running descaler through the group and all the valves. And you are actually sure you'll get almost all the solution out, that won't be the case if you just flush the boiler through the group and valves. Something that many professionals advice against.

If you need to clean or descale your valves (if they are beginning to leak, or have not been serviced for a few years), your far better off taking them apart and doing it manually, remember to lubricate them when your done. You Could also replace the inner part.

If I can do, so can you. It only requires that you have the tools to do the job, and no you do not need an overly expensive toolbox to do it. Some cheap wrench in the right size dos the job, on most parts.

If the lever arm becomes stiff, move strangely, making funny noises you'll need to replace the pins/valves and in some cases the cam lever. Although 9month isn't going to do that much harm with limited home usage. It's surely isn't good for these parts, it's surely is going to shorten their life span. Fortunately thise are readily available and are not the most expensive parts to change.


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

paul whu said:


> I backflush with no chemicals about every 4th cup. Chemically backflush evey second kilo or if I'm switching to a lighter bean. I always seem to get plenty of crap out of it and I am convinced the cleaning is necessary from a flavour perspective.
> 
> I have so far never lubricated the group. I have bought the machine secondhand from Rob666 maybe 9 months ago. I don't feel as though I'm mistreating the machine because there is no noticeable stiffness to the lever.
> 
> I'm a little concerned having read this. Do I need to get lubng to avoid future issues?


Hi Paul, hope it's all going well. I re-lubricated the group shortly before you bought the machine. If the lever isn't stiff or squeaking I would only re-lube after a chemical backflush. And I wouldn't do that too often, 3-6 months depending on how much coffee you're making.

As an aside, Rocket are now recommending that users do NOT descale. Rather that they should control the water they are using. Needless to say, they recommend using their own filters in the feed tank.

I've just serviced the group on my Rocket, chemical backflush and re-lube the group. There was minimal to no scale. (I'm using Ashbeck) Some evidence of corrosion on the mushroom, which I gather is the first to be affected. I've only descaled this machine once but I do wonder if this caused the corrosion.

In the light of this, I think I'll source some Rocket filters and avoid descaling again.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Rob666, do you think Ashbeck could be causing the corrosion? Would you still use Ashbeck when you have the rocket filters in place?


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

@pessutojr I very much doubt the Ashbeck is the cause of the corrosion. More likely the one time I descaled it. So, no I have no plans to stop using Ashbeck any time soon. I might add the Rocket filter as an added layer of protection but that's it.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I take these are the filters you are talking about @Rob666? I wonder whether it would make any difference since Ashbeck is already soft. May give it a go too.

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/rocket-espresso-water-reservoir-filter.html


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

I've used the Rocket filter in the past and found it did little. I tested the TDI of my water and also tested for water hardness before and whilst using the sachet. There was virtually no difference.

I now use a Brita c300 plumbed in filter which seems to do the trick (for my rock hard water)


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Those are indeed the filters I was thinking of. If they really don't do much I probably wont bother and just stick to Ashbeck. The whole water filter thing seems to be quite complex if you want to achieve a balance between softness and mineral content. I'm not sure I can be bothered. That said, the day I buy a machine which HAS to be plumbed in I'll be doing some serious research.


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