# Grinder upgraditus.... struggling to make a decision! Mazzer Royal or K10 PB?



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

I've been looking at new grinders for a while and am struggling to decide what to do.

Firstly - forget the price, I don't want that to be a factor really.

I mainly drink ristretto / espresso / long black from dark roasted (rolling 2C) beans that I roast myself and single dose - certainly no milk ever - and am looking for a grinder that I can be happy and content with for some time to come. Brewing on an Izzo Alex Duetto.

The SJ that I have had for some years is lightly modded for clean sweep, snozzler thing, and Coffeechaps rubber hood idea (with close fitting lid to ensure a good blast of air). I weigh the beans for every shot, sweep the burr exit and dose chamber clean during the single dosing.

So - I was originally looking at a Royal.... that I would probably fit the rubber hopper to as well, and may either go doserless on or mod the doser to the same extent that I have with the SJ. Those 86mm flat burrs turning relatively (to my SJ) slowly sound like a good thing and an improvement over my SJ.

However, I keep coming back to the conical vs flat argument - and feel that if I went with large flat I would for ever wish it was a conical.

Most conicals have obvious issues in grind retention and hence single dosing - though from what I can research the K10 PB works well in that respect (and better - ie less - grind retention than the K10F)

So - I'm struggling to make a decision. (As an aside, if an Elektra Nino appeared somewhere at a reasonable price then I'd probably throw that into the mix as well - but they just seem to be considerably more expensive than the K10PB. If it was going to be significantly better than a K10PB then I would perhaps consider it, but it's not going to be... is it?).

Decisions, decisions...

Any help or advice appreciated.... Come in Coffeechap... ;-)

Shades


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I have no experience of single-dosing high-end Conicals (shock horror) but I can tell you the Royal is 83mm burrs, and yes, its an improvement over an SJ. Much faster too. If you single dose then no need for a hopper of any kind - the size of the throat will accomodate 20g of any bean with a plastic tamper sat on top to stop popcorning. The motor is so powerful that a pulse or two will empty the majority of the grind path.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Is it much of a jump up from the the sj gary?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

In term of results in the cup or speed? you know just aswell on this front : )

Personally having a Mini-e (64mm) and the Royal side-by-side for over a week the difference was night and day in the cup. All even more clarity, more sweetness , more choc/caramel notes. Mini-e was overly bright and not balanced...although some of this could be down to distribution issues with the e's funnel.

The Compak K10 Barista has a reputation to be the ultimate doser grinder, over on HB


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## frankil (Jan 20, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Is it much of a jump up from the the sj gary?


I meant to ask the same question


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

If anyone wants to bring an SJ round we can do side by side with both dialled in.


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

Get a pharos or hg one?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> If anyone wants to bring an SJ round we can do side by side with both dialled in.


I only asked as earlier is was not that important which grinder you had!!!

The royal and an sj are night and day, the royal is an excellent slower spin super consistent big burred beast. I have run it side by side with a mythos and in terms of grind the royal probably pips it, but in terms of function delivery and retention the mythos is the best all round flat burr grinder.

Having had the k30 fresh for a while now and can quite categorically say it is going nowhere, the k10 brings an extra clarity to shots whether this is across the board with conicals I couldn't say,bug I have had the hg1 and the mythos and the Brasilia mc and they are not as good as the k10. L'altro and it can do everything light to dark roast, complex roasts and fussy single origins, I love it.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> I only asked as earlier is was not that important which grinder you had!!!
> 
> For pure espresso , the jump from SJ to something else is important, the OPs remit is espresso


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

In the thread about a classic and sj versus the l1 and k10, how quickly you forget you must be getting old


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Ah that thread (yes I am getting old) , well solely for milk drinks SJ v Royal (if speed wasnt a consideration) I wouldnt bother with the upgrade to be honest


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Have you done side by side on small volume milk drinks, as I find when working with a max volume of 4 oz of milk that is a significant difference in the standard of the drink over those two grinders, agreed once you start to drown espresso then there is less of a difference but even with ( forgive me for sweating) a caffe latte I notice the difference between a good grinder and a great grinder.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

I have considered the HG One and Versalab M3 as well - but keep coming back to the Mazzer and K10. Don't like the look of the Pharos - and I could buy a K10PB for the price of an HGone and would probably prefer the lazy (and possibly better?) option.

With the v slow speed of the K10PB and the fact that Dave would never be separated from his Fresh I'm starting to see this mist clear...

Can anyone comment on the Elektra Niño? It looks to be ideal - but is not cheap or very common.

Thanks for the comments and discussion so far, it's certainly helping.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Not throwing the Robur in the mix?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think right now the K10 Fresh is about top of the tree. I would agree with Dave about the Mythos being the best flat burr grinder and having owned one but I honestly believe the K10 Fresh is a step up from that as well.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

forzajuve said:


> Not throwing the Robur in the mix?


Played with a robur other day, very nice. But fluffy sheep massive though. Don't see many around , well not pre owned . Don't think it would be a single doser machine somehow


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Robur is the same size as a Royal - K10 probably smaller (which helps with wife approval

As Mrboots2u says, Royals appear used fairly regularly but Roburs don't. Retention seems high on them as well.

If one appeared at a reasonable price and some further research showed that a rubber hopper and doser mods would make it a good single doser with low retention then I'd consider it - but K10 still winning.

I like the idea of the K10F but the PB (WBC) variant seems better suited to single dosing - and it's cheaper.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> Have you done side by side on small volume milk drinks, as I find when working with a max volume of 4 oz of milk that is a significant difference in the standard of the drink over those two grinders, agreed once you start to drown espresso then there is less of a difference but even with ( forgive me for sweating) a caffe latte I notice the difference between a good grinder and a great grinder.


No the focus was entirely on espresso.

So is a Mythos now only considered 'good' and a K10F considered 'great'?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MrShades said:


> Robur is the same size as a Royal - K10 probably smaller (which helps with wife approval
> 
> As Mrboots2u says, Royals appear used fairly regularly but Roburs don't. Retention seems high on them as well.
> 
> ...


You have an amazing dilema. Contact Mike Haggerton (Habitat cafe) - he just won the best espresso award in some coffee industry competition, they use the K10 PB, he loves it.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Right... so where to get a K10 PB for a good price... Hmmmmmm...... just need to convince myself that I'm really better off with a PB than a Fresh..... 'cus then that damn Elektra Nino comes into play again!

Have warned the wife that we're probably into 4 figures for a grinder - she thinks I'm bonkers but is planning her Christmas presents accordingly!


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

I now cant decide between K10 Pro Barista, and the K10 Fresh - I absolutely LOVE the gadget factor of the K10 Fresh (esp the grind adjustment), the movable portafilter forks and the single/double shot grind-on-demand nature, and I can happily load my current roast batch (250g or so) in the small hopper and forget all about single dosing. Purging a few grams at the start of the day, or suffering a slightly inferior initial shot isn't really an issue (if you can afford a K10 you can afford a few beans I guess...). Any reliability issues with all of those electronics?

However, is retention in the Fresh really significantly worse than with the K10 Pro Barista? With the PB I could probably single dose if I wanted to (anyone know if there's a rubber hopper that'll fit?) - which is probably more difficult if not impossible with the Fresh.

Dave - you at home at all this week? Could I possibly impose on you and come over to look at the K10F and see what it's like in the flesh?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Why would you wish to single dose a Titan class grinder? It is not for home use, they are commercial machines. It is like identifying your need to have a Range a Rover then deciding against it as it does not offer 2 wheel drive!

If you are not a Barista in a coffee shop, just settle for the Fresh and be done!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Why would you wish to single dose a Titan class grinder? It is not for home use, they are commercial machines. It is like identifying your need to have a Range a Rover then deciding against it as it does not offer 2 wheel drive!
> 
> If you are not a Barista in a coffee shop, just settle for the Fresh and be done!


Yep agree with my esteemed and learned friend. Spend £1000 plus on a grinder and then worry a out waiting 50p worth of coffee, whilst at the same time not using it to to fill potential or function .....


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Might be able to bring it over to yours if you like!!!!


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Hmmmm.... Very kind and very tempting indeed! Will PM you.


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