# confused



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

feeling a bit thick here, but ive been confused by conflicting info on the net....

I always hear this talk of a 2:1 brew ratio, so 18g in should yield 36g (which will be roughly 36ml) etc, but I also see that a double espresso is 60ml, which would mean youd need 30gm of coffee for this ratio, which isnt possible...................or am i completely off my rocker?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

jj-x-ray said:


> feeling a bit thick here, but ive been confused by conflicting info on the net....
> 
> I always hear this talk of a 2:1 brew ratio, so 18g in should yield 36g (which will be roughly 36ml) etc, but I also see that a double espresso is 60ml, which would mean youd need 30gm of coffee for this ratio, which isnt possible...................or am i completely off my rocker?


In simple terms.... 2:1 is the new way, 30ml 60ml is the "old" traditional way, where coffee is full of robusta, stale and not fresh, aka "Italian Espresso".


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jj-x-ray said:


> feeling a bit thick here, but ive been confused by conflicting info on the net....
> 
> I always hear this talk of a 2:1 brew ratio, so 18g in should yield 36g (which will be roughly 36ml) etc, but I also see that a double espresso is 60ml, which would mean youd need 30gm of coffee for this ratio, which isnt possible...................or am i completely off my rocker?


The ratios are coffee to water so would be 1:2

A double espresso being 60ml is old italian technique of measuring for making espresso , where people also dosed 7 and or 14g. Alot has changed since then ( baskets sizes , milk drinks, style of roasting and quality of coffee )

Both are different ways to measure and help you make espresso , so if you are going to use weight and ratios , then ditch the " it must be 30 or 60 ml "

By the way 1:2 ratio is just a starting point , and you would adjust thus as you find you like your preference . If too strong use more water , if too weak use less water.

Nowadays people also use different baskets of variable dose sizes ( example vst 15 18 21 etc )


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

so a double shot should now only yield circa 30ml...........seems really miserly to me. surely an 'double americano' with this would be really weak?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jj-x-ray said:


> so a double shot should now only yield circa 30ml...........seems really miserly to me. surely an 'double americano' with this would be really weak?


Don't confuse and or mix weight and volume , Use one or the other .

A double can be anything you want it to be , depending on how you like your coffee to taste.


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

ok thanks for the help


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

It can be really hard not to get caught up in making a number instead of a drink when making espresso . Be the number measured in ml, grams, or even seconds. These are all just measures that are there to help you

1. repeat a test drink when you get to it

2. help to understand what to adjust if it isn't tasty ( too bitter , weak or strong etc )

3. a language to help communicate between people who they are making said drink.

Weighing is the best common language and the most accurate way of defining the things that have helped make the coffee you are drinking , but the most important is how it tastes. Not whether you hit 60 ml in 25 seconds or 1:2 in 30 seconds.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

just think in terms of extraction......how much coffee you are extracting from the dry weight. as boots said, start off at 18 in, 36 out and adjust accordingly. i am old school and been around coffee long enough to ignore a lot of the modern approach though i do borrow some guidelines. my own preference is to extract 60% of the dry weight. i am sure someone can tell me what that ratio is but 18 gives you circa 30 but for some that is too strong


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> just think in terms of extraction......how much coffee you are extracting from the dry weight. as boots said, start off at 18 in, 36 out and adjust accordingly. i am old school and been around coffee long enough to ignore a lot of the modern approach though i do borrow some guidelines. my own preference is to extract 60% of the dry weight. i am sure someone can tell me what that ratio is but 18 gives you circa 30 but for some that is too strong


1:1.66666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

DFK, it is not too strong but it is nice and gloopy:good:


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

jj-x-ray said:


> so a double shot should now only yield circa 30ml...........seems really miserly to me. surely an 'double americano' with this would be really weak?


Once you get your double shot of espresso, then to make an americanio, just dilute that with hot/cold water to taste.

When I make it, I dilute anywhere in between from 1 part coffee to 4 parts hot/cold water, up to 7 parts water. It depends on the beans and feeling of the day. So mine is anywhere from 180ml to 300ml.

It's confusing when you surf for info and at a glance, cannot distinguish between English sources and USA sources. Over the in the USA, not only do quite a lot of people talk ratio backwards, 1:2 or 2:1, 1:3 or 3:1 etc... quite a few places use monster baskets and on top of that, like to go to the verge of over dosing the baskets specified dose recommendation.

Generally portion sizes being monster sizes over there, I think a lot of people are used to making shots that yield about 40-50g (from about 20g+ of dose)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> 1:1.66666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666


recurring or is that exact?


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

almost a golden ratio........wonder what pi tastes like


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jj-x-ray said:


> almost a golden ratio........wonder what pi tastes like


apple or blackcurrant?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

jj-x-ray said:


> so a double shot should now only yield circa 30ml...........seems really miserly to me. surely an 'double americano' with this would be really weak?


Assuming the 18g:36g & 18g:60ml double has poured in the same time (eg approx. 30 seconds), they should give a similar tasting americano as near enough the same amount of coffee solids has been dissolved.

Flat whites, lattes etc would taste different however as the 1:2 ratio requires more milk to reach the same final volume.

My dad only drinks single espresso & prefers the taste when prepared 'the traditional' 7g:30ml way. For him a 1:2 ratio produces a drink that's a bit too short.

Try both ways side by side & see which you prefer or even if you can tell a difference between the 2. There is no hard & fast rule. The only thing that really matters is if you like the resulting drink.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jj-x-ray said:


> so a double shot should now only yield circa 30ml...........seems really miserly to me. surely an 'double americano' with this would be really weak?


A double or single shot can be almost any amount in the cup, double or single refers to the dose in the PF, so generally ~14-20g for a double, ~7-10g for a single.

The bigger the beverage/longer ratio you aim for, the weaker your drink...the smaller the beverage/shorter the ratio the stronger the drink.

For filter coffee an 18g dose would produce a cup around 250g in weight, look at that as a ratio of 1:14. You might prefer shorter ratio for your Americano, but once you have identified what you prefer, you can then repeat it.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Before lines shots glasses, a single to a double what probably whatever went into that espresso cup, which no doubt would be variable depending on the cup and the crema. The doser would be set up to fill a single or double basket but again this would no doubt entail some variable in dose.

These variable in process may help explain the " god shot " once in a while the star aligned and you would get something out of the ordinary.

No doubt a drive to improve or get to better coffee lead to more accurate setting up of doses and dosers and shot glasses get added in , in an attempt to get more consistent and or train new people as more cafes opened up .

So techniques change from a cup full and a basket full to 7g and a some ml , then comes in weight and grams , its no different , you are still making coffee , just measuring it all differently in an attempt to make better drinks more often.

Plus When you are working with a darker roasted Italian style coffee, with robusta and perhaps with sugar added ,then you had a good range in which to get to a drink people would find palatable.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

jj-x-ray said:


> , so 18g in should yield 36g (which will be roughly 36ml)


Very roughly but mostly more, depends on crema (which depends on beans freshness, processing, roast level and bean type)

Sometimes I can just barely fit a 36g shot in a 70 ml espresso cup


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