# tin burrs.... why tin?



## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

Tin is a chemical element with the symbol Sn and atomic number 50. It is a main group metal in group 14 of the periodic table.

So why do you use Tin as shorthand for titanium (Ti)

If using Tin as shorthand, then why add the 'n' when Ti is the official symbol?

Makes no sense to me...

If adding any letter add 't'.... I think Tit gives so much more for the imagination....'less you're an alice in wonderland fan.


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## billt (Jul 10, 2013)

I think it's TiN, titanium nitride.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

where's the imagination in that!? lol

So should it not be TiN?


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## smorgo (Nov 22, 2015)

Indeed. Don't buy Tin burrs. Buy TiN burrs.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

Though i guess the upside of Tin burrs is they'll take less 'seasoning'

cheaper to replace too!


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Isn't the reason that burrs such as Mythos etc are referred to as TiN because they are Titanium coated as opposed to being made from solid Titanium?


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

I know very little about metal, but is a 'coating' really worth all the fuss?

its suggested burrs aren't that reliable until they're seasoned - effectively blunted some what.

yet assuming the reason for TiN burrs is longevity, it'd take a heck of a lot of coffee to season them - roughly 3 times as much if journals are to be believed..

Then, assumedly once TiN burrs are seasoned (blunted), it's only because the 'coating' is worn off..(as coatings are normally less than 5 micrometres [wikipedia])..... thus back to 'normal' burrs.... except


you paid more for them,

they were unreliable for ages,

and then they were normal....


so just buy normal burrs?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

DoubleShot said:


> Isn't the reason that burrs such as Mythos etc are referred to as TiN because they are Titanium coated as opposed to being made from solid Titanium?


No. Titanium nitride.

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## billt (Jul 10, 2013)

Titanium nitride is used on a lot of cutting tools, drills etc, in order to harden the surface and maintain sharpness for longer than the uncoated metal.

If "seasoning" burrs does anything (which I doubt; it goes along with burning in hi-fi electronics - the improvement is in the mind of the user) the small amount of beans isn't going to have much effect on the longevity of the burrs.

Commercial grinder burrs have a normal life expectancy of around 400kG of beans. TiN coated will extend that by 3-4 times. A couple of kG of "seasoning" beans isn't going to shorten the burr life.

Of course the real advantage is for high volume commercial use - you don't have to change the burrs so frequently.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

It refers to the burrs being coated with titanium nitride, giving it a golden color. TiN burrs doesn't need seasoning as the burrs is (as far as I know) sandblasted before the treatment. The treatment hardens the surface and those protect the cutting surfaces.

You wouldn't want to pay for true titanium burrs, it would be impossible to afford


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

billt said:


> If "seasoning" burrs does anything (which I doubt; it goes along with burning in hi-fi electronics - the improvement is in the mind of the user) the small amount of beans isn't going to have much effect on the longevity of the burrs.
> 
> Commercial grinder burrs have a normal life expectancy of around 400kG of beans. TiN coated will extend that by 3-4 times. A couple of kG of "seasoning" beans isn't going to shorten the burr life.
> 
> Of course the real advantage is for high volume commercial use - you don't have to change the burrs so frequently.


I think there will be quite a few members who will disagree with your statement above that seasoning new burrs makes no difference.

And if by hi-fi equipment, you mean burning in new speakers and headphones, it certainly can make a difference. You may of course be in the minority who disagrees and of course are entitled to your own opinion.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

malling said:


> TiN burrs doesn't need seasoning as the burrs is (as far as I know) sandblasted before the treatment


can anyone confirm this?

so they 'blunt the burrs' by sandblasting them, then coat them? I doubt this very much, but i don't know... so can someone (who does know) confirm this?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Not "blunted", seasoned. Scott Rao for one has talked about unseasoned burrs not giving best extractions, once seasoned they improve before deteriorating again when blunt.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

Most big burr last for 500-800kg and longer if grinding less dense and darker roast.

Most TiN burrs last for 1200kg

Bulks 3000-10.000kg

And seasoning helps, this is not some sydo mind effect but a reality.

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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

MWJB said:


> Not "blunted", seasoned. Scott Rao for one has talked about unseasoned burrs not giving best extractions, once seasoned they improve before deteriorating again when blunt.


so what is seasoning if not mild bunting?

it aint achieved by adding salt.... and the burrs last time i licked them did not taste of coffee...


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

bongo said:


> so what is seasoning if not mild bunting?


Blunting, in any form, will impact on the efficiency of the burrs' ability to cut rather than crush the bean. Seasoning doesn't blunt burrs be it mildly.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

ok... so what does it do?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

bongo said:


> ok... so what does it do?


 @Terranova


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

[video=youtube;tiqjf8-yuR4]






@bongo go to 20 minutes in


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

cheers boots . i'll have a look


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

I guess it comes down to the way that burrs are made....

If you watch one of those slo-mo videos of the burrs being ground then you will see a grinding process using a grinding "wheel". One must assume that said wheel also gets "blunt" during its useful life and therefore the edge that it is capable of grinding is perhaps less precise after a number of uses. that lesser precision might then grind a good edge but the edge may have more material left behind in the form of a slight burr (feather or wire) which is that very fine part that folds over at the very cutting edge. On a cutting implement like a knife the work in then honed using the very finest of stones and this removes the feather leaving the finest of cutting edges.

I believe the seasoning process is akin to that of honing any blade and given that the removal of the feather is the result then preparation for processing with titanium nitride likely has the same effect. If that preparation takes into consideration the placement of the feather and removes it even using some sort of sand blasting process it must also surely consider the best angle of application for efficient removal. Such a precise application must then preclude damage to the cutting edge.

This might explain why some folks mention that there is barely any need to season TiN burrs.

Yeah OK this is all supposition on my part but....isn't this how engineering works ??


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

The burrs need to be entirely clean before the coating, those it is common to use some sort of sandblasting process.

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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

sounds reasonable to me....


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

billt said:


> Commercial grinder burrs have a normal life expectancy of around 400kG of beans.


Err wut? So 6 weeks? No.

-insert punderful wit here-


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Scotford said:


> Err wut? So 6 weeks? No.
> 
> -insert punderful wit here-


Must be missing a 0? At least?

Maybe that's why your coffee is terrible, you've not been replacing burrs every week....


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

After 6 weeks of new burrs is when I start to see grinding time slightly increasing. Makes no difference to extraction until about 12 weeks and even then it's very minimal.

-insert punderful wit here-


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## billt (Jul 10, 2013)

DoubleShot said:


> I think there will be quite a few members who will disagree with your statement above that seasoning new burrs makes no difference.


No doubt. It's been said on the internet so it must be true.



DoubleShot said:


> And if by hi-fi equipment, you mean burning in new speakers and headphones, it certainly can make a difference. You may of course be in the minority who disagrees and of course are entitled to your own opinion.


I was mainly referring to people who insist that electronics and wires need burning in, but there's no credible evidence that transducers need it either.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

billt said:


> No doubt. It's been said on the internet so it must be true.
> 
> I was mainly referring to people who insist that electronics and wires need burning in, but there's no credible evidence that transducers need it either.


Did you watch the Scott Rao clip I linked


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

billt said:


> I was mainly referring to people who insist that electronics and wires need burning in, but there's no credible evidence that transducers need it either.


I have spent a lot of time discussing electronics and have never heard of wires needing burning in. Other components have more tangible lifespans and change in state with time & use.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Did you watch the Scott Rao clip I linked


Probably not, there is no need if you already know the facts and are a person speaking from experience and authority, wait a minute ! It's Scott rao, what does he know?


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

so when are they going to make either diamond burrs, or tungsten carbide?

or does TiN top these for cutting?


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

TiN burrs is not the pinnacle when it comes down to longevity - Bulk burrs last longer, many of these are coated with something else then TiN


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

bongo said:


> so when are they going to make either diamond burrs, or tungsten carbide?
> 
> or does TiN top these for cutting?


They do make tungsten carbide ones, but not many people can justify the price tag.

Also I doubt any sandblasting is done on ground burrs, that would defeat the purpose of grinding them in the first place. Anything abrasive is only going to damage the cutting edge.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

Surely price is the last thing to worry about when people are paying £130 for metal to push the coffee down with...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

bongo said:


> Surely price is the last thing to worry about when people are paying £130 for metal to push the coffee down with...


You got very cynical very quickly







.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

It's 09:41 on a Sunday morning, and i've been awake for hours.... that was a treat for myself.


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