# Descaling - Citric acid not so great?



## Nick1881 (Dec 18, 2018)

I bought some citric acid crystals ready for when I need to descale, I decided to try it on a kettle that was pretty bad, our water is fairly hard and this kettle had never been descaled. I followed the recommended procedure and used a teaspoon of citric acid. It didn't do much so I tried again, again very little difference.

I then tried a measure of Kilrock, within 10 minutes this had dissolved all the scale in the kettle and it looked as good as new.

So did I get poor citric acid crystals or is it just not very effective? Is Kilrock ok to use in my machine? It didn't smell great but the results were good.

Anyone else compared other products?

I also need other cleaned products to clean the group etc, not quite yet but maybe in a few months, looking for recommendations.

Thanks


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## Inspector (Feb 23, 2017)

For kettle i use a tablespoon instead of teaspoon.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

I've found citric that I have bought varies quite a bit - with doing some Italian machines the type of scale also varies so it might be that? certainly tartric acid is often recommended for Gaggia classics and old levers as its kinder to the seals apparently.

Thinking about this I've often put a couple of tablespoons in if its very scaled and then had to repeat it, but always use boiling water to get the best out the acid

I hear Kilrock does the business so must try it


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Re citric acid

1. try with warm/hot water

2. as mentioned already, use a bit more than a teaspoon

3. give it some time

careful with aluminium parts (no matter what acid btw), do you know what materials your machine internals are made from?


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## Nick1881 (Dec 18, 2018)

I used the citric acid with boiling water, I will try more next time. I left it for about 15 minutes.

I believe my Lelit Bianca has steel boilers, not sure about other parts. I guess the seals would be a worry.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

A teaspoon will do nothing at all, you need at least 10-12 teaspoons or around 50g per litre, even then this is fairly non aggressive. Citric acid won't damage the seals, or anything else in your machine. Well don't splash any on the outside finish of course.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Like Dave says at least 50, last time used 80 I think, but that is all in the past.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I used 20g/l and descaled my La Pavoni - not a lot in there - and then I poured the same solution into the kettle which was badly scaled with unfiltered hard Thames Valley water. Left for 45min and it was clean.

Maybe these citric acid crystals have different concentrations?


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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

Resurrecting this topic to offer my experience.

I just went through the process of descaling my E61 HX. Used 50gr of citric acid crystals per litre of water. Added 1.5 litres to the tank with 150gr of citric acid dissolved in it. Pulled the water through to the HX boiler and made sure it also went through the group.

I turned off the machine, left it for 45-50 mins, and then began the process of flushing...

3.5 litres of water later, the water out of the machine is no longer green!

Not sure if it has been completely descaled, I can't see inside the boiler, but judging from the color of the first water that I purged through, it certainly helped.


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## ThePeginator (Dec 17, 2019)

ArisP said:


> Used 50gr of citric acid crystals per litre of water. Added 1.5 litres to the tank with 150gr of citric acid dissolved in it.


That's 100g/l isn't it?

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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

It is. I've seen 50-80g hawked around. Think I used 75 at one point in a pavoni and backed off to 50. I only use about 10g/l in my water distiller and it always comes up good as new.


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

150/1.5 = 100


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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

Rob1 said:


> 75


 100 is correct, sorry for the confusion.

I wanted to go for 50, but then said [email protected] it and went hard ?


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## ThePeginator (Dec 17, 2019)

I've ordered some Calcinet to descale my 2nd hand Classic, which may or may not have ever been done before. Obviously I'll check the instructions but anything to be aware of? I think it's pretty heavy duty stuff.

Same with Puly Caff for back flushing.

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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

ThePeginator said:


> I've ordered some Calcinet to descale my 2nd hand Classic, which may or may not have ever been done before. Obviously I'll check the instructions but anything to be aware of? I think it's pretty heavy duty stuff.
> 
> Same with Puly Caff for back flushing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Can't find a chemical composition for Calcinet. However, if the machine has never been descaled before, you do run the risk of dislodging a big chunk inside the boiler and blocking it.


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## ThePeginator (Dec 17, 2019)

ArisP said:


> Can't find a chemical composition for Calcinet. However, if the machine has never been descaled before, you do run the risk of dislodging a big chunk inside the boiler and blocking it.


Fantastic!

Any precautions / advice to try to avoid this?

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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

ThePeginator said:


> Fantastic!
> 
> Any precautions / advice to try to avoid this?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Better get a few opinions before starting. What I would do is take the boiler apart, it is fairly easy in the Gaggia, and submerge it in liquid outside of the machine.

That way, even if some larger chunks come lose, you don't have to worry.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ThePeginator said:


> Fantastic!
> 
> Any precautions / advice to try to avoid this?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Only real way to avoid it is to split the boiler & descaling all the parts separately. The Espresso Shop sell a service kit that includes new thermostats (they can degrade over time & switch off at a lower temperature).


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ArisP said:


> Better get a few opinions before starting. What I would do is take the boiler apart, it is fairly easy in the Gaggia, and submerge it in liquid outside of the machine.
> That way, even if some larger chunks come lose, you don't have to worry.


Don't submerge the boiler. The insulation around the elements will soak up the solution & you'll find yourself blowing the fuse (due to the short to earth) on rebuild.


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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> ArisP said:
> 
> 
> > Better get a few opinions before starting. What I would do is take the boiler apart, it is fairly easy in the Gaggia, and submerge it in liquid outside of the machine.
> ...


 ...and that's why it helps to get a second opinion!

Btw, I did not mean submerge any electrical contacts, but you made it clear.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ArisP said:


> ...and that's why it helps to get a second opinion!
> 
> Btw, I did not mean submerge any electrical contacts, but you made it clear.


Seen too many 'triping electric after descale' threads! 

It's a regular problem with the fixed external elements on the classic boiler.


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## ThePeginator (Dec 17, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> Seen too many 'triping electric after descale' threads!
> It's a regular problem with the fixed external elements on the classic boiler.


So if I shouldn't descale whilst built incase I block it, and I can't descale disassembled because it'll trip on rebuild, how on earth do I do it? 

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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

ThePeginator said:


> So if I shouldn't descale whilst built incase I block it, and I can't descale disassembled because it'll trip on rebuild, how on earth do I do it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 It is easier than you think (famous last words...)

Just avoid getting the electrical contacts sticking at the top wet!


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## ThePeginator (Dec 17, 2019)

ArisP said:


> It is easier than you think (famous last words...)
> Just avoid getting the electrical contacts sticking at the top wet!
> 
> <img alt="tn_IMG_3400.jpg.510744dd654de66ca64129823b10191c.jpg" data-fileid="34826" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_12/tn_IMG_3400.jpg.510744dd654de66ca64129823b10191c.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


Okey doke. I'm sure there's plenty of instructions, I'll look some up. 

Anyone have a rough timeframe for strip/re-build for a first timer who's relatively handy and has tools?

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ThePeginator said:


> So if I shouldn't descale whilst built incase I block it, and I can't descale disassembled because it'll trip on rebuild, how on earth do I do it?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just turn the boiler upside down so it'll hold the descaler. & Be careful when you empty it. Splitting the boiler will also give you a good indication of how it's been looked after before you got it.
The main problem with just running descaler through it is running the risk dislodging flakes of scale like has already been mentioned & not only having to unblock the solenoid but having it then block over & over again. You could get lucky & never have that problem too.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

ArisP said:


> 100 is correct, sorry for the confusion.
> 
> I wanted to go for 50, but then said [email protected] it and went hard ?


 I have always used 10% of citric acid (100 g per 1 l) assuming that the crystals I buy are 100% (which doesn't have to be the case as it can contain bond water) and usually with near to boiling water. The time needed would depend on the extent of scale build up. This by far has been the best option for me. In the past I have used some descaling agents based on phosphoric acid but they were really aggressive.


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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

John Yossarian said:


> I have always used 10% of citric acid (100 g per 1 l) assuming that the crystals I buy are 100% (which doesn't have to be the case as it can contain bond water) and usually with near to boiling water. The time needed would depend on the extent of scale build up. This by far has been the best option for me. In the past I have used some descaling agents based on phosphoric acid but they were really aggressive.


 Excellent, thanks for sharing!

I guess I got lucky with the ratio then.


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## ThePeginator (Dec 17, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> Just turn the boiler upside down so it'll hold the descaler. & Be careful when you empty it. Splitting the boiler will also give you a good indication of how it's been looked after before you got it.
> The main problem with just running descaler through it is running the risk dislodging flakes of scale like has already been mentioned & not only having to unblock the solenoid but having it then block over & over again. You could get lucky & never have that problem too.


Cool, thanks.

I guess once the boiler is descaled separately and I can be confident there's nothing that's going to block the machine, I can de-scale and back flash the machine as normal to ensure the machine is clean through out?

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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

There's another option for descaling seldom mentioned which is Lactic acid. Less often mentioned I guess as it's more expensive. "Food grade" supplies can be purchased at 80% strength for around £15/litre. Recommended dilution for descaling is between 1:7 and 1:10. Like Citric acid, it won't damage the internals of your machine as it's classed as "non-agressive" unlike Phosphoric acid. Delonghi sell it as their "Eco-Decalk" descaler. I've tried it and it seems to be very effective.


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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

I used puly descale sachets and they were fine, but took a fair bit of work to clear the solenoid.

Got 1kg of citric acid (food grade) on the way thanks to this thread - much cheaper, thus enabling more frequent preventative care - surely a win


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