# Grinder vs machine...



## mcharrogate

Hi everyone, hoping for some advice...

I'm looking to upgrade my current setup, which is a gaggia classic and mazzer mini-e. Both been modded to some extent (e.g. Silvia wand, upgraded shower screen, brass dispersion plate for classic; sj burrs and lens hood for mini) but as yet no pid...

Budget hopefully gives a bit of flex, probably maximum 2k all in, but my question is where should this be spent for best results? Whilst obviously tempted by all the lovely chrome on a new machine i know full well that if anything the grinder is more important so as an (admittedly extreme) example, would I actually get the best result with a massive step up in grinder quality (e.g

Mythos or similar) and buying a pid for the classic?! Essentially in terms of grinder vs machine, where is the "tipping point" if indeed it can be put in those terms?

In terms of drinking habits, it's mainly lighter roasts, as both espresso and in milk, but rarely need to do more than one or two drinks in quick succession as I'm really the only coffee drinker in the family. Tend to change beans very regularly which on current setup means lots of mucking about dialing in - although not sure I'll every be able to get round that one!

All thoughts much appreciated.

Matt


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## emradguy

I think you can get yourself a very good prosumer HX machine with a few hundred left over to put towards the grinder. Do you intend to sell your Classic? If so, you add the "profit" to the left over cash, then look for a well cared for used commercial grinder as your upgrade. Anyhow, that's just my opinion.


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## jenniferjohn

Nice one.


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## mcharrogate

Thanks emradguy, yes I would be selling both if I upgrade - not enough space to start hoarding!


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## coffeebean

I'm willing to extend Black Friday offer for the Forum. SO, Brewtus for £1000 delivered for the rest of the week!

Andy


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## jjprestidge

I really don't think you need anything more expensive than an Anfim Super Caimano for home use. The K30 has a slightly better particle size distribution, but it's not worth double the price IMO.

I've got the titanium burrs models, but this is only useful in a commercial environment - go for the regular model for home use. Results in the cup are excellent - a big step up from the Super Jolly (which I had as a spare grinder until recently, so have compared back to back).

JP


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## 4085

jjprestidge said:


> I really don't think you need anything more expensive than an Anfim Super Caimano for home use. The K30 has a slightly better particle size distribution, but it's not worth double the price IMO.
> 
> I've got the titanium burrs models, but this is only useful in a commercial environment - go for the regular model for home use. Results in the cup are excellent - a big step up from the Super Jolly (which I had as a spare grinder until recently, so have compared back to back).
> 
> JP


Funny how that grinder is one of the least popular on this forum anyway. There are a number of decent but non fashionable grinders out there and this is one of them. Which is why second hand they are probably a reasonable bet, but new, forget it


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## jjprestidge

dfk41 said:


> Funny how that grinder is one of the least popular on this forum anyway. There are a number of decent but non fashionable grinders out there and this is one of them. Which is why second hand they are probably a reasonable bet, but new, forget it


They're more popular in the industry than you might think - Colonna and Smalls had two until 2013, Relish (run by a former UKBC champion) had them until recently, and quite a few places that have a Kees Van der Westens use them. They're popular enough in Australia that Matt Perger analysed their particle size distribution, together with the EK43, Robur and K40. I'd take one over any Mazzer currently available.

JP


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## emradguy

Well, the Super Caimano is a flat burr grinder, and there's not really much better in the cup than it in the flat burr design, so as far as that goes I'd agree (though I can only say this based on what I've read, not from personal use). But one really needs to decide if they prefer the flavor profile from a flat burr set over a conical burr set, and if they prefer the conicals, then they should get one. As far as what is needed in the home, I strongly believe that is user dependent. It will vary by budget, space, aesthetics, functionality and use volume, as well as what someone needs to feel good about their purchase. If you want to develop the skills to match the best cafes in the world, then you will likely want gear that can perform just as well too. Or perhaps just making good espresso drinks is what is needed. I mean, some people are very, very happy using a SBDU and a low end grinder. If that's all they want from it, that's ok...and who's to say they need anything more. I mean, who really needs a BMW M5? Really, it's nearly 600HP! Some need a pickup truck, some just need a working beat up old car...and some need a Ferarri. So, while maybe YOU don't need anything more than a Super Caimano in YOUR home, that doesn't mean that someone else doesn't need more. I feel the purpose of this forum, and the others I participate in, is to help others achieve their goals, while learning ourselves.


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## 4085

You tend to own as expensive a piece of kit as you afford. I often have decent flat burr grinders at the same time as conicals. Every time, the conicals absolutely boot the flats into touch when it comes down to taste in the cup, using the same bean as a benchmark, which is why I am surprised at the love for the Anfim. Still, each to his own. If the conicals could solve the retention issues the life would be fun. It seems that Compak have done this to a large extent with the new E series as I am informed that there is hardly any space left inside for coffee to be stored.

I like darker roasted beans. Last Xmas I put a Mythos (which I currently still have) up against a K10 fresh. The results were absolutely staggering in that the K10 brought out chocolate and nuts and dark earthy tastes whereas the same bean in the Mythos came through way too much citrus city for my palate.

I will be getting a new Compak fairly soon, if the both fairies are good!


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## jjprestidge

dfk41 said:


> You tend to own as expensive a piece of kit as you afford. I often have decent flat burr grinders at the same time as conicals. Every time, the conicals absolutely boot the flats into touch when it comes down to taste in the cup, using the same bean as a benchmark, which is why I am surprised at the love for the Anfim. Still, each to his own. If the conicals could solve the retention issues the life would be fun. It seems that Compak have done this to a large extent with the new E series as I am informed that there is hardly any space left inside for coffee to be stored.
> 
> I like darker roasted beans. Last Xmas I put a Mythos (which I currently still have) up against a K10 fresh. The results were absolutely staggering in that the K10 brought out chocolate and nuts and dark earthy tastes whereas the same bean in the Mythos came through way too much citrus city for my palate.
> 
> I will be getting a new Compak fairly soon, if the both fairies are good!


There's a reason that the best shops have ditched conicals - Colonna and Smalls being one example.

Conicals, like the Robur E, are popular in high end coffee shops, especially in London because of their speed. They definitely don't produce the optimum grind, due to their particle size distribution and the shape of the grounds they produce. This isn't hearsay or folklore - look at Matt Perger's website, or speak to the current UK Barista Champion, who will tell you the same.

JP


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## jjprestidge

emradguy said:


> Well, the Super Caimano is a flat burr grinder, and there's not really much better in the cup than it in the flat burr design, so as far as that goes I'd agree (though I can only say this based on what I've read, not from personal use). But one really needs to decide if they prefer the flavor profile from a flat burr set over a conical burr set, and if they prefer the conicals, then they should get one. As far as what is needed in the home, I strongly believe that is user dependent. It will vary by budget, space, aesthetics, functionality and use volume, as well as what someone needs to feel good about their purchase. If you want to develop the skills to match the best cafes in the world, then you will likely want gear that can perform just as well too. Or perhaps just making good espresso drinks is what is needed. I mean, some people are very, very happy using a SBDU and a low end grinder. If that's all they want from it, that's ok...and who's to say they need anything more. I mean, who really needs a BMW M5? Really, it's nearly 600HP! Some need a pickup truck, some just need a working beat up old car...and some need a Ferarri. So, while maybe YOU don't need anything more than a Super Caimano in YOUR home, that doesn't mean that someone else doesn't need more. I feel the purpose of this forum, and the others I participate in, is to help others achieve their goals, while learning ourselves.


I own a speciality coffee shop - the Anfims are for commercial use, not for home.

See my previous post for my views on conicals.

JP


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## 4085

I always thought the proof of the pudding was in the eating and I am sorry, you are NEVER going to convince me that the taste profile of a flat is better than that of a conical. I don't give a bugger what Malt Berger says, nor do I care about particle size.........I care about taste. My taste may well be different to yours and there lies the issue. If you decide to use flats then I would never buy a coffee from you.........but fortunately, many others will, and probably drool at the prospect, but this is probably due to their lack of real coffee knowledge coupled with having mouth infections....just my two pence worth of course


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## funinacup

dfk41 said:


> If you decide to use flats then I would never buy a coffee from you.........


Seriously?

Thought I was snobby!


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## Mrboots2u

Ignore him , he is bored agaiin

Unless " Real coffee knowledge " comes from the zen state of mind of drinking 100 percent jampit

We can never hope to attain this state of mind or taste


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## Wando64

dfk41 said:


> but this is probably due to their lack of real coffee knowledge coupled with having mouth infections....just my two pence worth of course


Really? Can you believe I actually thought I was making good coffee with a Silvia and a Mignon?

Wow, I'll be off to the doctors first thing to get my mouth infections checked out.


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## jjprestidge

That is ludicrous - so you're saying that you wouldn't buy a coffee from the current UK Barista Champion, who only runs flat burrs? I suppose you're suggesting that he has a lack of knowledge of how things are meant to taste?

JP


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## Mrboots2u

Wando I dint think even Mr Kidd believes this one .....

Just the joy of argument


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## 4085

funinacup said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Thought I was snobby!


Give me a break! The point I am making, is that coffee, like any business evolves, and in order to evolve, with hindsight some of the things they invent are just garbage. We are now told that the consumer is demanding the third world (excuse the typo) style of Boheman coffee, lightly roasted etc etc. Rubbish, it is another industry led initiative. If someone is now exploiting coffee by determining that unless the coffee particle size is more uniform then the result in the cup is suffering, then I do not go along with that.

JP is using Anfims on the blog advice of MP. that is his choice and I hope he is happy with it. Bt, ws he happy with the set up he was using before reading the blog telling him his choice was wrong?

There is so much coffee *ollocks written and talked about. Most coffee is retailed to people who do not know a decent cuppa if it hit them in the face. Most coffee sold is diluted with milk, so who really cares about particle size?

Out of interest, how many Anfims are regularly seen on the World circuit?


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## garydyke1

Flats smash conicals IMO. Unless of course you have a tendency to under-extract due to various reasons and then the fines are a God send.


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## jjprestidge

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion about how YOU like coffee to taste, but to suggest that flat burrs produce worse coffee is absolute nonsense (and about five years out of date).

JP


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## Mrboots2u

Actually can I just say that I couldn't give a monkeys.


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## jjprestidge

dfk41 said:


> Give me a break! The point I am making, is that coffee, like any business evolves, and in order to evolve, with hindsight some of the things they invent are just garbage. We are now told that the consumer is demanding the third world (excuse the typo) style of Boheman coffee, lightly roasted etc etc. Rubbish, it is another industry led initiative. If someone is now exploiting coffee by determining that unless the coffee particle size is more uniform then the result in the cup is suffering, then I do not go along with that.
> 
> JP is using Anfims on the blog advice of MP. that is his choice and I hope he is happy with it. Bt, ws he happy with the set up he was using before reading the blog telling him his choice was wrong?
> 
> There is so much coffee *ollocks written and talked about. Most coffee is retailed to people who do not know a decent cuppa if it hit them in the face. Most coffee sold is diluted with milk, so who really cares about particle size?
> 
> Out of interest, how many Anfims are regularly seen on the World circuit?


No - I take most of my advice from Maxwell, who has done a tremendous amount of work blowing away some of the ridiculous folklore in the coffee industry, and this has been supported by proper science (in some cases published in peer reviewed academic journals, which is a far cry from the nonsense perpetuated for years by the old school coffee world).

Matt Perger's site merely has a useful analysis of particle size distribution that has been conducted in a decent way. You don't have to accept the findings, but at least there are data that support his views, unlike most other notions, like 'conicals are better'.

JP


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## mcharrogate

Blimey, I step away from the thread for a bit and its all kicking off! ;-)

Incidentally can I just say how much I enjoy the old blade grinders, mmm...


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## 4085

Been ages since we had a propa debate!


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## Wando64

Actually I have been meaning to ask this question for a long time.

Is anyone aware of double-blind tests of coffee grinders being carried out by anyone, anywhere?

I don't need to tell you how important these are.

I heard so many people swearing that expensive "high quality" HDMI cable produce a better video image, for example.

Or you know the one where a bunch of audiophiles selected the coat hangers as the best speaker cables in a DB experiment.

I don't doubt that the grinder can make a great difference, but has this been tested scientifically by anyone?

Every time I hear someone arguing in favour of this or that grinder I wonder how much the colour, shape and price are influencing their opinions.


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## jjprestidge

Wando64 said:


> Actually I have been meaning to ask this question for a long time.
> 
> Is anyone aware of double-blind tests of coffee grinders being carried out by anyone, anywhere?
> 
> I don't need to tell you how important these are.
> 
> I heard so many people swearing that expensive "high quality" HDMI cable produce a better video image, for example.
> 
> Or you know the one where a bunch of audiophiles selected the coat hangers as the best speaker cables in a DB experiment.
> 
> I don't doubt that the grinder can make a great difference, but has this been tested scientifically by anyone?
> 
> Every time I hear someone arguing in favour of this or that grinder I wonder how much the colour, shape and price are influencing their opinions.


We've certainly played around measuring extraction rates on different grinders. It's very difficult to get a good espresso at higher extraction rates on conical grinders (tasted blind). Flat burrs produce much better espressos at higher extraction rates; you can also run the shot longer and get more complexity without introducing negative flavour notes.

This has been a very bizarre debate!

JP


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## jjprestidge

dfk41 said:


> Out of interest, how many Anfims are regularly seen on the World circuit?


Well, three out of the six 2009 WBC finalists used Super Caimanos, and there were a few at this year's WBC (although the EK43 was most popular).

JP


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## Wando64

Actually I found an old thread where the issue of double blind test was discussed and dismissed as "unpractical"

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?14720-High-End-Grinders


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## 4085

jjprestidge said:


> Well, three out of the six 2009 WBC finalists used Super Caimanos, and there were a few at this year's WBC (although the EK43 was most popular).
> 
> JP


Seems a bit old to me, 2009. Thing is, would you agree, that the single most important thin, is how the shot delivers in the cup? You can make up any amount of scenarios you wish around this of course, which is why I dislike the whole showcase of Barista events. If a bunch of people turned up and served coffee to a judging panel, I could go with that. But why hey have to prance around the stage telling some convoluted story in order to win. Does this mean, that no matter how gifted, a barista with a speech impediment who could be the authority on coffee and produce amazing shots, cannot enter? Of course it does. It would be like that fat lass who won Pop Stars. Louis Walsh walked off in disgust because in his view she was unmarketable. The world coffee scene is just a merry go round for the same manufacturers to showboat


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## emradguy

jjprestidge said:


> I own a speciality coffee shop - the Anfims are for commercial use, not for home.
> 
> See my previous post for my views on conicals.
> 
> JP


The fact you own a shop is irrelevant - sorry, but I've just met too many people who know nothing about espresso owning, running and working in specialty cafes. Maybe you're more like the guys I respect, but I don't know you. Regardless, I may be relatively new to this forum, but I've been at this since Spring 2003, and I've picked up a fair amount of knowledge over the years through reading, discussions and hands on training with two-time US Barista champ, Heather Perry. The comments I made about using something in the home were based on your comments about what someone needs or doesn't need in their home. Regarding flat vs conical, I respect your views, but to me, it's a matter of personal preference...that really can be best determined via side by side comparisons with all other parameters being equal. You may also have noticed, my main espresso grinder is a Mazzer Major...so it's not like I'm saying conicals are better...just different.

And I'm flabbergasted to see what's become of this thread! WOW!


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## 4085

The nice thing about healthy discussion, is that each and every viewpoint can be right. But, I still do not agree with the industry being manipulated by a few, 'respected' people.


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## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> The nice thing about healthy discussion, is that each and every viewpoint can be right. But, I still do not agree with the industry being manipulated by a few, 'respected' people.


Or a forum being manipulated by one voice....


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## The Systemic Kid

My mother came up with the following during a passionate argument:

'I may be dogmatic - but at least I'm right'


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## jjprestidge

emradguy said:


> The fact you own a shop is irrelevant - sorry, but I've just met too many people who know nothing about espresso owning, running and working in specialty cafes. Maybe you're more like the guys I respect, but I don't know you. Regardless, I may be relatively new to this forum, but I've been at this since Spring 2003, and I've picked up a fair amount of knowledge over the years through reading, discussions and hands on training with two-time US Barista champ, Heather Perry. The comments I made about using something in the home were based on your comments about what someone needs or doesn't need in their home. Regarding flat vs conical, I respect your views, but to me, it's a matter of personal preference...that really can be best determined via side by side comparisons with all other parameters being equal. You may also have noticed, my main espresso grinder is a Mazzer Major...so it's not like I'm saying conicals are better...just different.
> 
> And I'm flabbergasted to see what's become of this thread! WOW!


Well, I was trained by a double UKBC champion for whom

I regularly make espressos. If you check my Twitter feed you can see what various people in the industry who've visited have thought of the place. We're also in Caffeine magazine this month, if you're interested.

The conical vs flat debate is pretty much over in the industry; if you want evidence of this, just look at the grinders that are in demand - the EK43 and the new Simonelli grinder. Also look at what competitors are taking to the WBC when they're not using the stock grinders; clue - there aren't many conicals.

I realise that this may offend some people, but there's a big difference between playing around with espresso at home (no matter how good your equipment) and operating a speciality coffee shop. I know this because I was originally a home user who took the leap to owning my own place.

Rant over.

JP


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## 4085

Mrboots2u said:


> Or a forum being manipulated by one voice....


Says the man with 11,476 posts..........yawn


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## 4085

I realise that this may offend some people, but there's a big difference between playing around with espresso at home (no matter how good your equipment) and operating a speciality coffee shop. I know this because I was originally a home user who took the leap to owning my own place.

M<y point exactly. why should you professional boys dictate trends for home users. my that has probably been lost is i have on several occasions put a decent flat against conical and ignoring the retention issue users to taste conicals wins every time.>

Can I ask why you have not jumped onto the EK platform then?

</y>


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## froggystyle

I forgot what the first post was asking now after reading all that.....


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## Beanosaurus

froggystyle said:


> I forgot what the first post was asking now after reading all that.....


It's Atheists vs Religion I think...


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## Mrboots2u

froggystyle said:


> I forgot what the first post was asking now after reading all that.....


I wouldn't have bothered reading it....

X is better than y ...

X being variable to whatever kit is currently owned fluctuates every 4 weeks

Y being anything that isn't that current kit.....normally x - 1


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## jjprestidge

dfk41 said:


> I realise that this may offend some people, but there's a big difference between playing around with espresso at home (no matter how good your equipment) and operating a speciality coffee shop. I know this because I was originally a home user who took the leap to owning my own place.
> 
> M<y point exactly. why should you professional boys dictate trends for home users. my that has probably been lost is i have on several occasions put a decent flat against conical and ignoring the retention issue users to taste conicals wins every time.>
> 
> Can I ask why you have not jumped onto the EK platform then?
> 
> </y>


Wanted to see how things would pan out before committing to the EK43, especially as it requires a huge amount of effort weighing out doses in advance.

JP


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## michaelg

When are we getting onto whose Dad would win in a fight?


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## froggystyle

Mine would!

Done.


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## michaelg

Mines wouldn't unless finger waggling becomes lethal (he's a teacher and it's his signature move!)


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## froggystyle

He doesn't throw chalk??


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## Mrboots2u

froggystyle said:


> He doesn't throw chalk??


Chalk..old school teachers used to throw the whole board rubber at you


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## 7493

Mrboots2u said:


> Chalk..old school teachers used to throw the whole board rubber at you


Remember it well!


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## Beanosaurus

Mrboots2u said:


> Chalk..old school teachers used to throw the whole board rubber at you


My teacher used to throw the whole BOARD at you.


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## coffeechap

jjprestidge said:


> Well, I was trained by a double UKBC champion for whom
> 
> I regularly make espressos. If you check my Twitter feed you can see what various people in the industry who've visited have thought of the place. We're also in Caffeine magazine this month, if you're interested.
> 
> The conical vs flat debate is pretty much over in the industry; if you want evidence of this, just look at the grinders that are in demand - the EK43 and the new Simonelli grinder. Also look at what competitors are taking to the WBC when they're not using the stock grinders; clue - there aren't many conicals.
> 
> I realise that this may offend some people, but there's a big difference between playing around with espresso at home (no matter how good your equipment) and operating a speciality coffee shop. I know this because I was originally a home user who took the leap to owning my own place.
> 
> Rant over.
> 
> JP


JP,

There are people on here that know as much if not more than you in relation to the preparation of coffee, conicals have certainly not had their day the grind particle size and composition certainly suit levers. The only flat grinders I have had that gets better extractions than the top end conicals are the ek43 and the compak r120, the super caimano ( yes I have had two) is a very good grinder,but for my palet (as amateur as it is) the k10 was much more complex in the cup and certainly suits the L1 over a flat burr. I will have to come down and see what you are about as I am only just around the corner.


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## jjprestidge

coffeechap said:


> JP,
> 
> There are people on here that know as much if not more than you in relation to the preparation of coffee, conicals have certainly not had their day the grind particle size and composition certainly suit levers. The only flat grinders I have had that gets better extractions than the top end conicals are the ek43 and the compak r120, the super caimano ( yes I have had two) is a very good grinder,but for my palet (as amateur as it is) the k10 was much more complex in the cup and certainly suits the L1 over a flat burr. I will have to come down and see what you are about as I am only just around the corner.


With respect, the coffee world, both at home and in commercial settings, is full of folklore. I take my advice from people who back up their claims with evidence: Max, Tim Wendleboe, Matt Perger and James Hoffmann all do this.

Show me any evidence that conicals don't cause particle distribution and ground shapes that tend towards both under and over extraction and I'll listen. What I won't follow is slavish devotion to a particular type of grinder with nothing but folklore to back it up.

Drop in to the shop one day - I'm much nicer and less argumentative in person!

JP


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## 4085

JJ, what cc said was that in his experience, having played with flats and conicals, the K10 which I have also had on the bench against a K8 and Mythos absolutely mullered the flats on their ability to produce a more complicated combination of taste and flavour. It was explained to me, that if a shaft of light enters a prism, then the conical shaft has many more colours in it than the flat shaft of light. Hence the rationale of not giving a fig about particle distribution but trusting taste as the be all and end all.

It is a bit like saying, yes, it tastes shite but when you put the grinds under a microscope, it is very impressive that they all appear the same size.....so what?


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## jjprestidge

dfk41 said:


> JJ, what cc said was that in his experience, having played with flats and conicals, the K10 which I have also had on the bench against a K8 and Mythos absolutely mullered the flats on their ability to produce a more complicated combination of taste and flavour. It was explained to me, that if a shaft of light enters a prism, then the conical shaft has many more colours in it than the flat shaft of light. Hence the rationale of not giving a fig about particle distribution but trusting taste as the be all and end all.
> 
> It is a bit like saying, yes, it tastes shite but when you put the grinds under a microscope, it is very impressive that they all appear the same size.....so what?


That's a curious analogy that takes no account of the way espresso is extracted. People aren't looking at particle distribution in isolation - they're looking at why certain flat burr grinders produce better tasting espressos, particularly at higher extractions (measured on the VST refractometer).

I've only just been speaking to Nude Espresso about how they are able to pull longer, more complex shots, on the new Simonelli Mythos One compared to their previous Compak conical grinders.

JP


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## 4085

JJ, why don't you pm coffee chap since you are nearby, and see for yourself. Forget the science and the refractometers and all that stuff. Just take a couple of bags of beans along to his shack and ask yourself which grinder produces the nicer shot for your own personal taste. Unless I am wrong, it is what ends up going down ones throat that is important.....


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## jjprestidge

dfk41 said:


> JJ, why don't you pm coffee chap since you are nearby, and see for yourself. Forget the science and the refractometers and all that stuff. Just take a couple of bags of beans along to his shack and ask yourself which grinder produces the nicer shot for your own personal taste. Unless I am wrong, it is what ends up going down ones throat that is important.....


I've worked with plenty of conicals - Roburs, Compaks, etc and have never been greatly impressed. They always favour low extraction rates.

JP


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## 4085

There you go again, believing extraction results from a refractometer over your own tastebuds. Do you think any customer gives a salads toss about your refractometer readings?


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## The Systemic Kid

Refractometer provides data - it's not a taste tool. Data is invaluable when tweaking grind for example.


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## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> There you go again, believing extraction results from a refractometer over your own tastebuds. Do you think any customer gives a salads toss about your refractometer readings?


They're closely connected, you're assuming one overrides the other, rather than working in harmony. It's perfectly valid for you to say that you have made better cups with conicals than you have with flats, but you're not giving any of us any frame of reference, or a datum by which we can assertain what you mean by better. If you are saying that conicals actually & consistently function better than flats, we need something more solid & repeatable than a single protocol/preference/user expectation. It's not that no one believes your experience, it's more how does anyone who isn't present when you make your shots replicate your findings & establish consensus or otherwise.

Perhaps you can tell what kind of burr was used when comparing nominally extracted shots, without seeing the grinders, then you have some serious taste buds.

If your "prism of light" theory stands & makes sense to you, I'll post you my Tiamo hand grinder, or try a Krups GVX...these should blow all other grinders out of the water on that basis! ;-)


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## mcharrogate

Maybe I should have started with a less emotive subject, say creationism...


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## mcharrogate

BTW any chance of some thoughts on the original question ... ;-)


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## urbanbumpkin

dfk41 said:


> JJ, why don't you pm coffee chap since you are nearby, and see for yourself. Forget the science and the refractometers and all that stuff. Just take a couple of bags of beans along to his shack and ask yourself which grinder produces the nicer shot for your own personal taste. Unless I am wrong, it is what ends up going down ones throat that is important.....


I like the sound of this. video the results and we can put this argument to a close, it might change the someone's opinion


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## dwalsh1

mcharrogate said:


> BTW any chance of some thoughts on the original question ... ;-)


What was the question again........................


----------



## 4085

I endeth here. I do not need a refractometer to tell me how good or bad my coffee is. For some, science and coffee go together, for others, it is a major turn off. I cannot accept jj's argument that he is seriously trying to produce the best coffee science can manage when his grinders are Anifms, based on the fact that some were used in the championships in 2009, anymore than I can accept that there is much more data to come out on the EK style grinder. Each to his own. I still stand by the fact, and no one seems to have really argued the point, that the same bean through a flat produces a different taste than a conical. This is regardless of the size of particles etc etc. I have a flat at the moment but will be switching back to conicals after Xmas. There is nothing wrong with the coffee I am producing for myself, but I know I prefer the conical taste. If every cup of coffee is a scientific experiment, then I am pleased for you.


----------



## Mrboots2u

" I endeth here...."


----------



## The Systemic Kid

mcharrogate said:


> Maybe I should have started with a less emotive subject, say creationism...


Is that flat or conical creationism?


----------



## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> ...but I know I prefer the conical taste. If every cup of coffee is a scientific experiment, then I am pleased for you.


I think it would be shame if you left the discussion, after all that is what forms are about, not just reinforcing our established beliefs.

Science is about answering unknowns, if you already "know" the answer then you don't need to do any science...perhaps measurement would be a better phrase, but what measurement/result, that you can convey to someone 200/2000 miles away, is that knowledge based on? Coffee is a delicious drink, when it's not, a measurement may help you work out why. It's an experiment if you choose to make it so, otherwise I aim to make a delicious cup & start out with the parameters I need to do that & repeat it. I don't like to make coffee not knowing roughly what the result will be, though obviously this is unavoidable at times.


----------



## Xpenno

jjprestidge said:


> With respect, the coffee world, both at home and in commercial settings, is full of folklore. I take my advice from people who back up their claims with evidence: Max, Tim Wendleboe, Matt Perger and James Hoffmann all do this.
> 
> Show me any evidence that conicals don't cause particle distribution and ground shapes that tend towards both under and over extraction and I'll listen. What I won't follow is slavish devotion to a particular type of grinder with nothing but folklore to back it up.
> 
> Drop in to the shop one day - I'm much nicer and less argumentative in person!
> 
> JP


This is true if you are trying to extract more from the coffee. Is this necessarily better, no, is it different, yes. With the EK and longer extractions I would say this is a different drink, it's no longer really espresso as it used to be known. Simply saying that extracting more is better is like saying a 20% beer is better than a 5% beer, it's not better it's different. The EK gives a narrow grind distribution and conical doesn't, it's not necessarily right or wrong, better or worse.

If you do it right then the EK (and some of the newer large flat burr grinders) give a very clean, focused beverage that represents that coffee in its most basic form. The extraction that you get from a range of grind sizes e.e on a conical, may suit some machines, taste buds, coffees etc.. better. You get the full picture of what's on offer from the coffee, there is more going on from the wide extraction range, some prefer this and why shouldn't they?

For me the analogy is as simple as a packet of skittles. The EK produces a shot that like taking a single skittle, say a red one, when you eat it you enjoy that flavour and that one only. A conical is more like taking a handful of all colours and eating them at the same time, still can be tasty but a range of flavours. It's all still skittles but different ways of enjoying them, neither right or wrong.


----------



## anton78

I wouldn't claim to be an expert (although my dad is really hard, and my god is better than yours), but I have just done something similar in upgrading from a silvia and mignon to an R58 and ceado e37s. I've only had the ceado a couple of weeks, but now it's settled down I'm really seeing a difference. The rocket has made a massive difference in terms of consistency and convenience (especially on the milky ones, for obvious reasons). The grinder just seems to give me so much more though, in terms of texture and flavour. It's just great. I'm hoping to do some extensive (unfortunately not double blind) side by side testing in the new year, but for me the upgrade of the grinder made a bigger difference in the shots.

It's obv a difficult question to answer, and I think someone rightly said you'll spend whatever you can afford, but go nuts. It's Christmas soon, and I've heard you've been a good boy. Treat yourself, and say the bigger boys on the forum made you do it.


----------



## 4085

Well said Spence. The skittles analogy is similar to what I was trying to explain about the prism. More is not automatically better. If you did not have these toys, you would have to trust your tastebuds. The EK boundaries have been stretched and I have always said that I am not prepared to change the style of coffee I drink to accommodate a new grinder, though I respect the fact that others are willing. It all leads back to marketing, the new trends that are drawn up to sell more coffee. Takes me back to the 1960's when if you wanted to wash your clothes you used washing powder!


----------



## garydyke1

Everyone keeps banging on about the EK but highish extractions can be obtained with the K30 Air and Mythos 1, at more conventional ratios to boot. both grinders wipe the floor with a Robur-e


----------



## Xpenno

garydyke1 said:


> Everyone keeps banging on about the EK but highish extractions can be obtained with the K30 Air and Mythos 1, at more conventional ratios to boot. both grinders wipe the floor with a Robur-e


At the Has Bean forum day I made tastier (IMHO) shots on the Mythos One than the EK. Maybe I need one of those at home too...


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Xpenno said:


> At the Has Bean forum day I made tastier (IMHO) shots on the Mythos One than the EK. Maybe I need one of those at home too...


Selling one of the EKs Spence?


----------



## Xpenno

urbanbumpkin said:


> Selling one of the EKs Spence?


I only got the one mate, and probably not....


----------



## emradguy

jjprestidge said:


> Well, I was trained by a double UKBC champion for whom
> 
> I regularly make espressos. If you check my Twitter feed you can see what various people in the industry who've visited have thought of the place. We're also in Caffeine magazine this month, if you're interested.
> 
> The conical vs flat debate is pretty much over in the industry; if you want evidence of this, just look at the grinders that are in demand - the EK43 and the new Simonelli grinder. Also look at what competitors are taking to the WBC when they're not using the stock grinders; clue - there aren't many conicals.
> 
> I realise that this may offend some people, but there's a big difference between playing around with espresso at home (no matter how good your equipment) and operating a speciality coffee shop. I know this because I was originally a home user who took the leap to owning my own place.
> 
> Rant over.
> 
> JP


Ok, well, you've gained yourself some credibility. However, I maintain that your experience and know how remains irrelevant to me forming my own opinion about whether I prefer A or B grinder. You have failed to convince me (or probably anyone else) that you've actually decided on your own that you did anything other than follow trend. Really, you've merely presented an argument for jumping off a cliff. You do acknowledge there is a difference in the cup, at least indirectly so, but you have not yet said you've ever done a side by side experience with multiple shots of multiple beans/blends and decided in your own mind..."I prefer...." You know what? I have done that, and I've decided for myself which burr type I prefer. To say that because all the pros are using A or B doesn't say at all that every person will prefer A or B.

...and yeah, your statement about people playing around with espresso at home is very offensive...though perhaps true for many people. Some are playing, some are taking it as a serious hobby. I suspect many of the enthusiasts that frequent the forums are not merely playing around. Do I think I can crank out 50 drinks or more an hour? Hell no! Do I think I can carefully prepare a drink that rivals most high end establishments? Hell yes! Without a doubt. Do I think I'm good enough to compete in the WBC...not even close. Anyhow, I know that I'm replying to a post that occurred 4 pages back, but oh well, some people gotta work.


----------



## garydyke1

Xpenno said:


> At the Has Bean forum day I made tastier (IMHO) shots on the Mythos One than the EK. Maybe I need one of those at home too...


Its a shame the brewed coffee it produces is not great and its useless for bulk grinding. he he


----------



## Xpenno

garydyke1 said:


> Its a shame the brewed coffee it produces is not great and its useless for bulk grinding. he he


Bulk grinding I'm not so worried about, although sometimes I do wonder with the amount of coffee I get through. Brewed is a problem, not sure I'd sell the EK though, probably the K10


----------



## anton78

So, mcharrogate, what are you going to do with your cash armed with all this info?


----------



## jjprestidge

emradguy said:


> Ok, well, you've gained yourself some credibility. However, I maintain that your experience and know how remains irrelevant to me forming my own opinion about whether I prefer A or B grinder. You have failed to convince me (or probably anyone else) that you've actually decided on your own that you did anything other than follow trend. Really, you've merely presented an argument for jumping off a cliff. You do acknowledge there is a difference in the cup, at least indirectly so, but you have not yet said you've ever done a side by side experience with multiple shots of multiple beans/blends and decided in your own mind..."I prefer...." You know what? I have done that, and I've decided for myself which burr type I prefer. To say that because all the pros are using A or B doesn't say at all that every person will prefer A or B.
> 
> ...and yeah, your statement about people playing around with espresso at home is very offensive...though perhaps true for many people. Some are playing, some are taking it as a serious hobby. I suspect many of the enthusiasts that frequent the forums are not merely playing around. Do I think I can crank out 50 drinks or more an hour? Hell no! Do I think I can carefully prepare a drink that rivals most high end establishments? Hell yes! Without a doubt. Do I think I'm good enough to compete in the WBC...not even close. Anyhow, I know that I'm replying to a post that occurred 4 pages back, but oh well, some people gotta work.


I've tasted coffee on and compared most commercial grinders on the market. I also take advice from people I trust, as it's good to get second and third opinions. The choice for me was between a couple of used Roburs, the Anfims, an EK43 and the K30. The EK43 produced the best shots, but also produced some duds, and was difficult to get hold of with the right burrs at the time. The K30 was very good, but very expensive when buying two. The Robur didn't produce great shots in my view - any sort of length brought out undesirable flavours. The Anfims were very close taste wise to the K30, but cheaper, and, as I weigh everything in, and am not a super high volume place, I didn't really need the on demand features if the K30, which are one iof its main advantages over the Anfim for many shops. Plus, one of my main roasters, Round Hill, uses them, which makes life a little easier when comparing their recipes with mine.

The experience of many people, including me, with conicals is that they don't work well with longer shots and higher extraction rates. This is pretty much a given. I don't know what else I need to say to convince you, but it might help to look at the grinders people are taking to the WBC, as the scoring is taste based. There aren't many conicals. The research done on particle size distribution just identifies why the larger flat burr grinders produce particles that extract more evenly and sores so that tastes better.

Ultimately, I can only say come into the shop and try some espressos. However, if you like short, syrupy ristrettos that have extracted at 15% then I can tell you that you won't like what I'm doing (nor would you like Colonna and Smalls for that matter).

It feels like I've criticised someone's religion on this thread, such is the dogma regarding conical grinders. Weird, as

I'm not saying anything new - in fact loads of people in the industry have been saying it for ages now.

JP


----------



## michaelg

Whilst it's an admirable effort in standardising ways in analysing the outcome of the drink production with all the technology we have available today and I applaud the scientific rigor some people seem to apply to it, even as a former lab chemist it's for me a step too far for what is a tasty distraction and some caffeine fuel for what actually pays the bills. I am aware that I am at the whim of my somewhat unreliable tastebuds that some days will tell me that beer from my fridge was the tastiest beer in years and the next day, the same beer, bought at the same time, same batch, from a fridge at the same temperature just isn't going down a treat like it did yesterday.

Sometimes it is just down to your mood, what you ate/drank earlier, how recently you brushed your teeth or whatever that determines how much you enjoy a drink and it might be a bit of a fruitless endeavour to painstakingly try to recreate the wonderful coffee you had yesterday. I think sometimes you have to just enjoy the great ones when they happen, keep trying to produce the best drink you can with all the equipment and technique you have to hand and can be arsed using on a day-to-day basis within your own tolerance of 'faff' and get on with your life.

It is at the end of the day, just a drink albeit a tasty and important one!


----------



## mcharrogate

I'm going to cut out the middle man and just get some of those nice convenient tassimo pods I think


----------



## Xpenno

anton78 said:


> So, mcharrogate, what are you going to do with your cash armed with all this info?


Bloody hell I just realised there was a point to this thread....

If I had 2K to spend I look to the used section (or Coffeechap as he's also known) for a used ex-commercial grinder such as a Royal or similar. Those 83mm burrs can produce fantastic espresso, better than the mini for sure, but they are big/heavy grinders. The machine is down to personal choice, Expo Brewtus is a superb machine for the cash, there are better looking machines out there for more cash but that's where my money would go on your budget.


----------



## El Cabron

No offence to anyone but owning a café doesn't mean someone can make better coffee than a 'home tinkerer'.

In fact most hobby coffee making enthusiasts make coffee to put most cafés to shame, most of the time with equipment costing thousands of pounds less than professional set ups, and with no barista training. Unlike pro's, home users turn to making their own coffee out of passion and enthusiasm for making decent coffee and not for a wage


----------



## Daren

mcharrogate said:


> I'm going to cut out the middle man and just get some of those nice convenient tassimo pods I think


Nespresso's far better - industry insiders tell me


----------



## Xpenno

jjprestidge said:


> I don't know what else I need to say to convince you


Why do you have to convince anyone? What's wrong with liking something that's extracted to 15%? Just because it wouldn't (necessarily) win WBC doesn't mean that someone wouldn't like it. You are presuming that the end goal is to run longer and extract more, this is your goal (and mine as it happens), however it's not for everyone as I'm sure Maxwell will happily tell you.


----------



## michaelg

Daren said:


> Nespresso's far better - industry insiders tell me


I make my own capsules filled with freshly ground Lavazza. Taste heaven obvs.


----------



## Xpenno

Oh yeah and jjprestidge, it's good to have people who do coffee for a living around here, we love to hear opinion and we love a debate, don't take it personally!


----------



## jjprestidge

El Cabron said:


> No offence to anyone but owning a café doesn't mean someone can make better coffee than a 'home tinkerer'.
> 
> In fact most hobby coffee making enthusiasts make coffee to put most cafés to shame, most of the time with equipment costing thousands of pounds less than professional set ups, and with no barista training. Unlike pro's, home users turn to making their own coffee out of passion and enthusiasm for making decent coffee and not for a wage


There's a difference between owning a cafe and owning a speciality coffee shop where coffee is the complete focus.mI own the latter.

The point I was trying to make is that many home users (and I used to be guilty of this myself) come up with all sorts of weird ideas that they get from forums and internet experts. It's a different ball game when you're selling coffee to people like Maxwell - if you're doing something bad then you'll soon find out.

That's not to denigrate what people achieve at home - I'm sure there are plenty on here who can produce great coffee on their home setups.

JP


----------



## jjprestidge

Xpenno said:


> Oh yeah and jjprestidge, it's good to have people who do coffee for a living around here, we love to hear opinion and we love a debate, don't take it personally!


Cheers. I hope I haven't come across as a complete arse!

JP


----------



## El Cabron

Maxwell house? Hehehe











jjprestidge said:


> It's a different ball game when you're selling coffee to people like Maxwell


----------



## 4085

Unless Maxwell represents more than 0.00005% of your total sales, personally I would not be bothered.........and I doubt he pays anyway so there:coffee:


----------



## nobeans

It's quite interesting to see the back and forth this thread is producing. Too my mind it draws a parallel to the use of science in cooking.

When sous-vide became the in thing many years ago it split chefs . The argument for sous vide was there was science to back it up, they could calculate the temperature at which proteins cooked and water was released and bacteria killed etc. this allowed the creation of dishes which were deemed ideal for brining out a 'true' or 'pure' unadulterated flavour of ingredients.

Thing is there is no consensus, take an ingredient like fish and people are split. When cooked sous-vide some describe it as perfect, juicy and melting and clean in flavour. To others it's a bit mushy, slimy and feels raw lacking something in flavour.

So what does that mean? Maybe it's all subjective, perhaps taste is not a definable outcome except on a personal level. When I eat chicken, does it taste the same as when someone else does? And much like people search for an authentic flavour you could say there is no such thing as authentic. It's always evolving, much like how the coffee served today is different to that 10years ago.

I like what I like, but I'm open to new experiences. So if I have coffee on a large flat and it blows me away, I may consider that next or as my tastes evolve. Who knows, when the new ultrasonic grinders are invented they may make the next ultimate coffee.

It's all very interesting to hear the debate nonetheless.


----------



## 4085

I am old enough to remember taking your car to the garage for a service. When you opened your boot the used parts were always left on display for you to see. Part of the driving ritual was spraying your distributor cap and leads with wd40 or if you were handy, putting a rubber glove over it and feeding the less through the fingers. Points, ask your dad what they are.

Now, it is down the garage to met the technique who has not got the foggiest what might be wrong with your car till he has plugged in into the laptop for diagnosis..........


----------



## jjprestidge

dfk41 said:


> Unless Maxwell represents more than 0.00005% of your total sales, personally I would not be bothered.........and I doubt he pays anyway so there:coffee:


He always pays. In fact he thinks our espresso prices are too low.

JP


----------



## Jon

Can we rename this thread to: "How to intimidate newcomers to the world of coffee" - seems appropriate.

Seriously think some people need to switch to decaf.

Just saying.


----------



## Obnic

jonc said:


> Seriously think some people need to switch to decaf.
> 
> Just saying.


 careful... that's a whole 'nother flame thread right there.


----------



## Jon

Obnic said:


> careful... that's a whole 'nother flame thread right there.


"Decaf vs. Normal" - I'll add a thread.


----------



## emradguy

jjprestidge said:


> I've tasted coffee on and compared most commercial grinders on the market. I also take advice from people I trust, as it's good to get second and third opinions. The choice for me was between a couple of used Roburs, the Anfims, an EK43 and the K30. The EK43 produced the best shots, but also produced some duds, and was difficult to get hold of with the right burrs at the time. The K30 was very good, but very expensive when buying two. The Robur didn't produce great shots in my view - any sort of length brought out undesirable flavours. The Anfims were very close taste wise to the K30, but cheaper, and, as I weigh everything in, and am not a super high volume place, I didn't really need the on demand features if the K30, which are one iof its main advantages over the Anfim for many shops. Plus, one of my main roasters, Round Hill, uses them, which makes life a little easier when comparing their recipes with mine.
> 
> The experience of many people, including me, with conicals is that they don't work well with longer shots and higher extraction rates. This is pretty much a given. I don't know what else I need to say to convince you, but it might help to look at the grinders people are taking to the WBC, as the scoring is taste based. There aren't many conicals. The research done on particle size distribution just identifies why the larger flat burr grinders produce particles that extract more evenly and sores so that tastes better.
> 
> Ultimately, I can only say come into the shop and try some espressos. However, if you like short, syrupy ristrettos that have extracted at 15% then I can tell you that you won't like what I'm doing (nor would you like Colonna and Smalls for that matter).
> 
> It feels like I've criticised someone's religion on this thread, such is the dogma regarding conical grinders. Weird, as
> 
> I'm not saying anything new - in fact loads of people in the industry have been saying it for ages now.
> 
> JP


My my whole point all along, is that you don't have to convince me or anyone else, in fact, you shouldn't even try to convince people. Just give your opinion. People will gather opinions, try things, and decide for themselves. Whatever, though. I'm done with this thread. We've wasted far too many words on OP's "dime" (or two-pence, or whatever the quivalent expression is over there in the UK).

Btw, I would love to visit your cafe, but it's really friggin' far from me. I live in Houston, Texas!


----------



## mcharrogate

Thanks Xpenno, that's helpful - I might have a word with CC in terms of grinders specifically as whilst space/size isn't the main criteria I'm not sure I can accommodate a dalek on the bench!!


----------



## urbanbumpkin

For £2k a used grinder like a Royal or even a Mythos. And then a Brewtus would be a good starting point.

I'm sure there's other grinders in that price bracket that CC could suggest.


----------



## rmblack78

I do like a good discussion...

I really enjoy the coffee I make at home on my Gaggia Classic (no mods) and my MC2.

I've nothing more sensible to add than "taste is personal"

I want my 20 minutes back too by the way!


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Well, you can't have it


----------



## MWJB

nobeans said:


> It's quite interesting to see the back and forth this thread is producing. Too my mind it draws a parallel to the use of science in cooking.
> 
> When sous-vide became the in thing many years ago it split chefs . The argument for sous vide was there was science to back it up, they could calculate the temperature at which proteins cooked and water was released and bacteria killed etc. this allowed the creation of dishes which were deemed ideal for brining out a 'true' or 'pure' unadulterated flavour of ingredients.
> 
> Thing is there is no consensus, take an ingredient like fish and people are split. When cooked sous-vide some describe it as perfect, juicy and melting and clean in flavour. To others it's a bit mushy, slimy and feels raw lacking something in flavour.


This is interesting, but constant references to "science" & "scientific methods" are really neither here nor there. A sous vide is a cooker, a deep fat fryer is a cooker, curing is also a method for coagulating the proteins at room temp. Fish can also be dried. Non of these happens by magic, all can be described by science however simple. And so it is with grinders, they all do what they do, science can describe what they do & applies to all of them equally.

The target an individual is aiming for, preference if you will, may vary from person to person, but that doesn't stop a describable/measurable process from happening, nor mean that the laws of science are suspended and magic is taking place.


----------



## jjprestidge

rmblack78 said:


> I do like a good discussion...
> 
> I really enjoy the coffee I make at home on my Gaggia Classic (no mods) and my MC2.
> 
> I've nothing more sensible to add than "taste is personal"
> 
> I want my 20 minutes back too by the way!


Can't give you the 20 minutes back, but you can have a free coffee (made on a flat burr grinder!)

JP


----------



## dwalsh1

jjprestidge said:


> Cheers. I hope I haven't come across as a complete arse!
> 
> JP


No. Just a know it all


----------



## nobeans

MWJB said:


> This is interesting, but constant references to "science" & "scientific methods" are really neither here nor there. A sous vide is a cooker, a deep fat fryer is a cooker, curing is also a method for coagulating the proteins at room temp. Fish can also be dried. Non of these happens by magic, all can be described by science however simple. And so it is with grinders, they all do what they do, science can describe what they do & applies to all of them equally.
> 
> The target an individual is aiming for, preference if you will, may vary from person to person, but that doesn't stop a describable/measurable process from happening, nor mean that the laws of science are suspended and magic is taking place.


When I said 'science' It was more a reference to the arguments proponents of sous vide use. In the evolution of cooking science an oversimplification would be to say heat --> cooked through, heat --> till right colour/texture, heat --> target core temperature for rare/medium, heat --> aiming for constant temperature taking into account factors as temperature actin and myosin denature. The coffee parallel in terms of evolution would be moving from shot volume to shot weight to refractometer use.

It was more a commentary on how coffee is evolving, and the parallels I saw to previous events in food. As with art and taste people become passionate about what they feel is right. Rightly so, as we are all passionate about coffee here.

Ultimately I agree with you, the understanding behind processes will push things further and perhaps create new ways much as the EK 43 coffee shot has done. But there is a difference in saying flat grinders are more uniform, extract higher hence this is 'better'. This statement is part fact part subjective.

Either way, Who knows, even taste will become less subjective once we detangle the bio-psycho-social elements to it. I'll stop now because I feel I'm becoming too philosophical.


----------



## jjprestidge

dwalsh1 said:


> No. Just a know it all


Spot on, then.

JP


----------



## El Cabron

Do you deliver to the isle of wight?











jjprestidge said:


> Can't give you the 20 minutes back, but you can have a free coffee (made on a flat burr grinder!)
> 
> JP


----------



## jjprestidge

nobeans said:


> When I said 'science' It was more a reference to the arguments proponents of sous vide use. In the evolution of cooking science an oversimplification would be to say heat --> cooked through, heat --> till right colour/texture, heat --> target core temperature for rare/medium, heat --> aiming for constant temperature taking into account factors as temperature actin and myosin denature. The coffee parallel in terms of evolution would be moving from shot volume to shot weight to refractometer use.
> 
> It was more a commentary on how coffee is evolving, and the parallels I saw to previous events in food. As with art and taste people become passionate about what they feel is right. Rightly so, as we are all passionate about coffee here.
> 
> Ultimately I agree with you, the understanding behind processes will push things further and perhaps create new ways much as the EK 43 coffee shot has done. But there is a difference in saying flat grinders are more uniform, extract higher hence this is 'better'. This statement is part fact part subjective.
> 
> Either way, Who knows, even taste will become less subjective once we detangle the bio-psycho-social elements to it. I'll stop now because I feel I'm becoming too philosophical.


The analysis was done post hoc, to try to understand why the EK43 was producing better tasting coffee. Taste has an element of subjectivism to it, but to deny any objectivity requires advocating a disproved philosophical position; that is to say giving equal credence to everything when there is clearly better and worse.

An analogy would be to say that literature is subjective and that no writer is better than another - it is merely a case of what the individual likes. However, this ultimately leads to the ridiculous assertion that someone like Jeffery Archer has the same literary worth as Shakespeare.

JP


----------



## jjprestidge

El Cabron said:


> Do you deliver to the isle of wight?


Might be a bit cold, even if I can get one of my customers to fly it down there.

JP


----------



## El Cabron

Damn i was hoping to try some of this speciality coffee











jjprestidge said:


> Might be a bit cold, even if I can get one of my customers to fly it down there.
> 
> JP


----------



## michaelg

jjprestidge said:


> Might be a bit cold, even if I can get one of my customers to fly it down there.
> 
> JP


Microwave?


----------



## Dylan

jjprestidge said:


> The analysis was done post hoc, to try to understand why the EK43 was producing better tasting coffee. Taste has an element of subjectivism to it, but to deny any objectivity requires advocating a disproved philosophical position; that is to say giving equal credence to everything when there is clearly better and worse.
> 
> An analogy would be to say that literature is subjective and that no writer is better than another - it is merely a case of what the individual likes. However, this ultimately leads to the ridiculous assertion that someone like Jeffery Archer has the same literary worth as Shakespeare.
> 
> JP


Edit-

Actually, nevermind...


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Doing up my son's flat - so everything is upside down - no espresso - relying on a Dualit grinder for Chemex to keep me sane - Dualit's burrs are knackered but it's amazing how good a brewed coffee tastes using fresh beans when your desperate no matter how crap the grinder is.


----------



## Beanosaurus

michaelg said:


> Microwave?


This summer when I was working in a shop I genuinely heard someone request for their latté to be heated up in the microwave as it was "too cold" by the time she got round to drinking it.

Typically, the daft bat had left it sat there while she had her meal then irately proclaimed "Its not what I'm used to!" then began the twitching and gesticulating after we said we didn't have a microwave...











​


----------



## urbanbumpkin

The Systemic Kid said:


> Doing up my son's flat - so everything is upside down - no espresso - relying on a Dualit grinder for Chemex to keep me sane - Dualit's burrs are knackered but it's amazing how good a brewed coffee tastes using fresh beans when your desperate no matter how crap the grinder is.


Didn't you give your son your L1? or have you disinherited him?


----------



## The Systemic Kid

urbanbumpkin said:


> Didn't you give your son your L1? or have you disinherited him?


He's getting the LI Clive but that won't be until the kitchen's finished. I've increased the worktop area to make sure there's plenty of space for it. At the moment, all he's got is a sink - and that's coming out tomorrow - worktops don't arrvive until a week on Monday so more chaos to put up with until then but it will be worth it.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

The Systemic Kid said:


> He's getting the LI Clive but that won't be until the kitchen's finished. I've increased the worktop area to make sure there's plenty of space for it. At the moment, all he's got is a sink - and that's coming out tomorrow - worktops don't arrvive until a week on Monday so more chaos to put up with until then but it will be worth it.


He's a lucky lad. Excellent Patrick


----------



## Mrboots2u

Might be better if people in general spent time understanding how to prep a basket properly or understand the effects of different brew ratios on taste and extractions .

Probably make a bigger difference to how espresso tastes than one grinder versus another. A poorly prepped and inappropriate brew ratio for a coffee will effect it more than whether your using a sj or an anfim or conic or an ek or a torr or perf tamp...

The amount of cafes and home Baristas that over dose and under extract with high end equipment is the real shame and probably why a lot of the public find espresso unpalatable in the first place .....


----------



## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


> Might be better if people in general spent time understanding how to prep a basket properly or understand the effects of different brew ratios on taste and extractions .
> 
> Probably make a bigger difference to how espresso tastes than one grinder versus another. A poorly prepped and inappropriate brew ratio for a coffee will effect it more than whether your using a sj or an anfim or conic or an ek or a torr or perf tamp...
> 
> The amount of cafes and home Baristas that over dose and under extract with high end equipment is the real shame and probably why a lot of the public find espresso unpalatable in the first place .....


I'm sensing a paradigm shift. Now when someone comes on asking about a machine, the first question will be 'do you know how to prep a basket?' instead of 'Do you have a grinder?'


----------



## Mrboots2u

They still need a gridner...

Should be able to make perfectly acceptable espresso with a sj upwards tho don't you think.

Especially if its being masked by milk sweetness


----------



## jeebsy

Yeah for sure, anything SJ and up should be producing good drinks with them getting better as you go up

I just jumped into the thread without reading the first 116 posts, couldn't be arsed.


----------



## michaelg

The Systemic Kid said:


> He's getting the LI Clive but that won't be until the kitchen's finished. I've increased the worktop area to make sure there's plenty of space for it. At the moment, all he's got is a sink - and that's coming out tomorrow - worktops don't arrvive until a week on Monday so more chaos to put up with until then but it will be worth it.


What Patrick is trying to say is, he's adopted me and I'm getting the L1 and he hasn't plucked up the courage to tell his biological son that he's being snubbed now


----------



## Mrboots2u

michaelg said:


> What Patrick is trying to say is, he's adopted me and I'm getting the L1 and he hasn't plucked up the courage to tell his biological son that he's being snubbed now


I'm first in line for adoption to the savages ...........


----------



## jjprestidge

Mrboots2u said:


> Might be better if people in general spent time understanding how to prep a basket properly or understand the effects of different brew ratios on taste and extractions .
> 
> Probably make a bigger difference to how espresso tastes than one grinder versus another. A poorly prepped and inappropriate brew ratio for a coffee will effect it more than whether your using a sj or an anfim or conic or an ek or a torr or perf tamp...
> 
> The amount of cafes and home Baristas that over dose and under extract with high end equipment is the real shame and probably why a lot of the public find espresso unpalatable in the first place .....


Most early speciality coffee was under extracted - doses were too high with very light roasts, and were pulled too short. Things are changing now.

JP


----------



## michaelg

Mrboots2u said:


> I'm first in line for adoption to the savages ...........


Okay big bro, whatevs...


----------



## rmblack78

Mrboots2u said:


> They still need a gridner...
> 
> Should be able to make perfectly acceptable espresso with a sj upwards tho don't you think.
> 
> Especially if its being masked by milk sweetness


I get espresso that I enjoy with my MC2. Whether anyone else enjoys it is of little importance to me. (Only coffee drinker in the house most of the time).

I have spent time getting the dose and tamp right, I get a good 1:2 in about 28s on average. The odd gusher mind...

I'm sure I'd get better results if I upgraded, but the Mrs keeps my balls in her handbag so I don't see an upgrade coming anytime soon.

Just my opinion.


----------



## Mrboots2u

rmblack78 said:


> I get espresso that I enjoy with my MC2. Whether anyone else enjoys it is of little importance to me. (Only coffee drinker in the house most of the time).
> 
> I have spent time getting the dose and tamp right, I get a good 1:2 in about 28s on average. The odd gusher mind...
> 
> I'm sure I'd get better results if I upgraded, but the Mrs keeps my balls in her handbag so I don't see an upgrade coming anytime soon.
> 
> Just my opinion.


And it's a valid one , sorry just picked SJ as a general reference

Sorry about your Balls......


----------



## rmblack78

They've been there for a while... I barely miss them now.


----------



## Daren

Are they green?

Oh sorry - wrong thread


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Mrboots2u said:


> I'm first in line for adoption to the savages ...........


I think you'll find I'm first in line for being TS Kidd Jr. In a previous post....well I bagged it first anyway


----------



## Jon

Hi - can you offer any advice on not doing this, since I probably do it please?:



Mrboots2u said:


> The amount of cafes and home Baristas that over dose and under extract with high end equipment is the real shame...


And on doing this better please?:



Mrboots2u said:


> Might be better if people in general spent time understanding how to prep a basket properly or understand the effects of different brew ratios on taste and extractions...


----------



## Mrboots2u

jonc said:


> Hi - can you offer any advice on not doing this, since I probably do it please?:
> 
> And on doing this better please?:


Yep ilk drop you a pm


----------



## Mrboots2u

It all depends how it tastes


----------



## jjprestidge

jonc said:


> Hi - can you offer any advice on not doing this, since I probably do it please?:
> 
> And on doing this better please?:


Big topic, but as a starter it's difficult not to under extract when pulling short shots and/or using larger doses (say more than 20g with a light roast coffee).

Sometimes coffees are roasted in a way that encourages under extraction; that is to say that they taste better at 16% than 21% for example. This, however, is often a case of a bean not reaching its full potential because of the way it has been roasted.

You can sometimes get an under extraction hump where grinding finer makes the coffee taste worse, but grinding finer still makes it taste better. Sometimes a barista won't get beyond the hump because they assume that grinding finer still would produce worse results.

JP


----------



## 4085

So, is a ristretto a ristretto if you did not intentionally mean to pull it?


----------



## Mrboots2u

It only really makes a difference if whatever you pull ( ristretto or not ) isn't balanced and to your taste . If it tastes bitter or even sour , the you could be under extracting . If you don't like this taste then changing the brew ratio might help achieve the balance of taste you want

As indicated its hard to under extract at more normale brew ratios and again the roast of the coffee will dictate to some degree what your capable of extracting

20 into 34 you gonna have to have a high TDS to 11 to get a say something considered a sweet extraction of 19 extraction yield , but it will taste " strong " . That's fine if you like it , no problem with that at all .....

But you may not be grinding fine enough at getting less extraction yield and you may prefer the taste of this . If that's the case it doesn't really matter , all say a brew ratio and then a refractometer is doing is conforming how to replicate what you don't like or what you do like .....


----------



## Hoffmonkey

Mrboots2u said:


> Yep ilk drop you a pm


Why not start a new thread - it would be of wider interest (I for one!)


----------



## froggystyle

The thread that keeps on giving, and giving, and giving....


----------



## Mrboots2u

Hoffmonkey said:


> Why not start a new thread - it would be of wider interest (I for one!)


Coz you just tend to get a ton of grief or sarcasm when Any mention of measurement is used or applied or implied....


----------



## Jon

Thanks for your PM and advice, will read and re-read to make sure I get it because this stuff gets a bit complex for me and my simple brain...



Mrboots2u said:


> Coz you just tend to get a ton of grief or sarcasm when Any mention of measurement is used or applied or implied....
> 
> See above ..


This is what annoys me about this forum, there's a bunch of helpful people, then there's a few (albeit only a few) antagonistic folk that see it as their place to inform folk about how ill-informed they are relative to said 'expert'.

It's a shame, because Glenn, Mrboots2u (sorry I forget your actual name!) - and many others seem to be genuinely nice people who want to help folk to get the most from their coffee...

Rant over.


----------



## Mrboots2u

No of it is gospel , as I said , if you like what you make it doesn't matter if it's nominally under extracted as thou of by a coffee association .

If you think something tastes unbalanced or acidic then perhaps trying to change the brew ratio and therefore the taste might give an insight into how the coffee taste at a different extraction . If you still don't like it then of course that's not a problem , you don't like it .....often though people post that they fail to hit tasting notes in espresso . Is that coz the notes are unrealistic or coz the coffee need extracting higher or because we'll all taste stuff differently ...

For me I prefer clarity and sweetness over mouthfeel . I'm not right , it's not better coffee just different .

Others love the intensity, strength and mouthfeel of a more traditional ristretto shot and might find a normale, higher extraction yield shot to be weak and watery ....

Again no right or wrong


----------



## 4085

I take it that jonc's comments are aimed at me. I have had a healthy interest in coffee for years. I drink it or sink it. I am quite happy for the boffins to do there thing, but at the end of the day, I do not think a drink that's been through the boffin machine will taste any better than one made with love, care and respect without a boffin in site. Out of the many users on this site, the boffins are in the minority in terms of numbers. I do not take coffee so seriously, that if I taste a drink I not 100% with, I rush from refractometer and start measuring etc etc. I would be interested to know the Italian lever cafes approach to all this scientific stuff. I suspect they serve more coffee than the average high street or speciality coffee shop and do not get many drinks returned to them.


----------



## Jon

I agree with dfk41 that taste is fundamentally the most important thing.

That we can all agree on surely.


----------



## 4085

Don't call me surely.......


----------



## glevum

Some of the worse coffee i have ever had is from Italian Levers & pump machines, but that's down to their ''L*****A'' beans hopefully!


----------



## Daren

dfk41 said:


> I would be interested to know the Italian lever cafes approach to all this scientific stuff. I suspect they serve more coffee than the average high street or speciality coffee shop and do not get many drinks returned to them.


Oi Surely... I mean dfk

Quantity is not a measure of quality. Nor is the amount of returned coffee a measure of quality (I'm sure Starbucks and Costa are glad of that - it's still gash)


----------



## Jon

Daren said:


> I'm sure Starbucks and Costa are glad of that


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not forget Nero. Yuck. Filth.


----------



## Daren

jonc said:


> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not forget Nero. Yuck. Filth.


Jonc - I hate you... I had managed to wipe Nero from my memory bank - now I'm having to think about it


----------



## Jon

Daren said:


> Jonc - I hate you... I had managed to wipe Nero from my memory bank - now I'm having to think about it


Maybe pop in - see if it's better than you remember? ;-)


----------



## Daren

jonc said:


> Maybe pop in - see if it's better than you remember? ;-)


I'd rather suck my own plumbs


----------



## Jon

Daren said:


> I'd rather suck my own plumbs


Which is easier than enjoying a Nero coffee...


----------



## michaelg

You sucking Daren's plums or him sucking them? Or maybe the question is would you rather suck Daren's plums than a Nero espresso?!


----------



## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> I take it that jonc's comments are aimed at me. I have had a healthy interest in coffee for years. I drink it or sink it.


That's fine as long as you're not sinking as much as you drink.



dfk41 said:


> I am quite happy for the boffins to do there thing, but at the end of the day, I do not think a drink that's been through the boffin machine will taste any better than one made with love, care and respect without a boffin in site. Out of the many users on this site, the boffins are in the minority in terms of numbers. I do not take coffee so seriously, that if I taste a drink I not 100% with, I rush from refractometer and start measuring etc etc.


Machines tend to be made by boffins, unless yours grew in the ground from a seed, or was delivered to you by aliens...ooh hang on, wouldn't technologically advanced aliens from another world just be little green boffins from somewhere else...?

Lever owners are in a minority too, but their opinions aren't dismissed because of that, do you think they should be?



dfk41 said:


> I would be interested to know the Italian lever cafes approach to all this scientific stuff. I suspect they serve more coffee than the average high street or speciality coffee shop and do not get many drinks returned to them.


I couldn't give a hoot what somebody in another country did with coffee I won't be drinking. I care about the coffee I make/buy & drink. I do not take coffee so seriously that when I taste a drink I'm not 100% with that I rush to Italy & start ordering coffees there. ;-)

I feel sure that you are using the word "boffin" in the complimentary sense, y'know to convey your very deep respect for the intelligent designers & engineers who allow you to indulge your passion for espresso...which, without boffins would just be beans smashed in a pestle & mortar then soaked in hot water.

I find it hard to consolidate your love of machinery & engineered products with your dismissal of other engineered products & machines. But if you're enjoying your coffee made on machines, then good for you.


----------



## Daren

michaelg said:


> the question is would you rather suck Daren's plums than a Nero espresso?!


I think we all know the answer to that question (don't be ashamed - tell the truth)


----------



## Thecatlinux

Hmm an intresting debate , with a divided outcome of opinions , there is a few pearls of wisdom in that lot but boy what a load of stuff you have to read to find them .

i read it all and just picked out the opinions that suited my journey and dismissed the ones which didn't , for the those who contributed the opinions that suited me Thank You,

Off to carry on my handfull of skittles , discovering ridiculously oversized equipment for myself whilst trying to perfect and tinker my technique to get the best tasting coffee that suits my palette with the knowledge I may be missing out on a whole other journey of coffee enlightenment , but it's early days yet and still happy to be an apprentice.


----------



## 4085

Some people have a need to play with toys. Me, I trust my tastebuds. If I make a shot and for some reason dislike it, I have enough knowledge to think it through and try different things to get the shot right, without the need to reach for a refractometer. It sounds to me, MJ that without your toys you would be lost. Are you telling me that you are incapable of making a shot and diagnosing it without your toys. Makes me think you are old enough to have been brought up to expect a technician to plug your car into his laptop to diagnose it, whereas I am older and would expect a mechanic to be able to work the problem out. Ok, I accept that cars are a lot more technical these days but whether that is a good thing or a bad thing can remain open.

The point I am leading to now, is that on the forum over the past 12 months or so, when people talk about their coffee, the first thing they say is x gms in, x gems out over x seconds. Why? Without a refractometer, that really is inconclusive yet it is the way people express themselves. A violin in the inexperienced persons hand will still play a tune, it just will not sound as good as a more experienced person.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Aren't machines and grinders your toys?

Why is chasing new machines and grinders more purposeful, less boffin , and more acceptable than trying to be consistent with one set of gear.....

Perhaps learn the equipment you have rather than changing it every month


----------



## Daren

dfk41 said:


> A violin in the inexperienced persons hand will still play a tune, it just will not sound as good as a more experienced person.


Some of the world best musicians also tune their instruments with electronic devices - some do not. Let the musician choose what works best for them and enjoy the music. (At the moment all the noise is spoiling it)

Peace out


----------



## 4085

Hey, I have always said each to his own. I do not mind in the slightest if people want to boffin their coffee. My objection, is that that is the only and correct way of getting a decent cuppa!

And Bootsie, yes, machines and grinders are my toys........should I ask ant for refractometer?


----------



## 4085

duplicate post!


----------



## Mrboots2u

Aren't machines and grinders your toys?

Why is chasing new machines and grinders more purposeful, less boffin , and more acceptable than trying to be consistent with one set of gear.....

Perhaps learn the equipment you have rather than changing it every month


----------



## 4085

Mrboots2u said:


> Aren't machines and grinders your toys?
> 
> Why is chasing new machines and grinders more purposeful, less boffin , and more acceptable than trying to be consistent with one set of gear.....
> 
> Perhaps learn the equipment you have rather than changing it every month


Boots, **** off you four eyed argumentative moderator. Just as well we know and love each other. thats fighting talk where I come from.......just as well I have moved!

I have a very good understanding of the gear I have mate. I changed my machines this year, simply because I sold the L1 in preparation of the Veloce turning up. That took longer than expected, then mine had to go back to have the right sized boiler retro fitted. The GS came along. Where many sat and drooled and made all the usual sounds that people who have no intention of buying dribbled, I actioned the situation and nicked the GS. After a week it was easy to see that whilst desirable, it was absolutely nothing special. The Vesuvius, which by the way, you now own was also nicked by virtue of the fact I managed to part ex a grinder I had owned three times before, so you benefitted from my generosity.

I am back in lever land and thats where I am staying. Anyone who knows me understands that if I buy something, it is not because I have the biggest cheque book but that because all parties concerned are happy with the deal.

I reckon I know my gear a lot better than you know yours........have we slapped each other in the face enough, or do you want to continue

xxx


----------



## Daren

dfk41 said:


> Boots, **** off you four eyed argumentative moderator.


That is completely unnecessary and offensive (even if Boots doesn't think so - it is). Any creditability in your argument is lost when you start making personal offensive remarks - even in jest. It's an open forum.

Maybe it's time to draw a line under this now


----------



## MWJB

I measure stuff on a refractometer surprisingly rarely, usually if dialling in, or trying something new/experimenting. If everything tastes good then what is measuring going to tell you? It's just going to confirm what you already know. It is invaluable when troubleshooting, like JP says, the change from sour>sweet>bitter isn't always linear, the first signs of bitterness could be extreme low extraction, a trough on the low side of normal, or in some cases overextraction, it's tricky to identify the different states just by taste, especially in a layered espresso.

The refractometer doesn't change the taste of the coffee you have made, it just points you to what may be wrong/right with it.

DFK41 wrote: *"The point I am leading to now, is that on the forum over the past 12 months or so, when people talk about their coffee, the first thing they say is x gms in, x gems out over x seconds." *

Brew ratios have been a recognised mechanism for making coffee for 60yrs at least. Espresso ratios, based on mass, for 8yrs & 27 days at least (thanks AndyS)...not the last 12 months.

There are a couple of things you are missing out here - you're not the only one & I agree with you that this info on it's own doesn't tell you much about the result. g in vs g out tells us the ideal range of strength of the shot *if* it is nominally extracted. The idea being we limit the variables by using the same dose & output, then just adjust grind based on flavour to get a good tasting shot. The seconds aren't really part of the process (within reason), though I guess folk put them in for completeness/reference.

I don't know how old you are, I don't know how old you think I am, or have any reason to assume my age...this is a leap of faith/assumption, with no basis in any information that you have been party to (much like "prism of light" theory - ALL burr grinders produce a range of grinds, all that I'm aware of are bimodal in espresso range, just ranges of smallest to largest particles vary). FWIW I can set a points/contact breaker ignition, hall effect, whatever, I can check big end clearance, crankshaft run out, con rod tolerance, measure bore wear, piston ring clearance, compression ratio, squish clearance...yada....yada....There are tools for all these purposes - bore guages, dial gauges, micrometers, etc., If my timing was seriously out, or any of those other issues, I can measure it, I can compare it to a nominal value, or I can blueprint to very fine tolerance. I would naturally expect a large deviation from nominal to show up in engine performance...exactly as I would expect an extraction yield well out of the bounds of normal to reflect in the taste in the cup. As with engines, different designs have different tolerances & ideal values - same with coffee & grinders. I wouldn't use the same bore clearance on a cast iron Rudge cylinder as I would for a water cooled ally Yamaha cylinder, I wouldn't expect them to be the same, but I'd expect both to function as intended & if they didn't, I'd work out why, by measuring & fix them.

The violin needs to be in tune for either player, it doesn't need to be a Stradivarius to be in tune, it just needs to function satisfactorily. If the inexperienced player is not hitting the correct intonation through technique this is pretty obvious in the sound (to within a few cents), they can either have the experienced player compare tones for correction, or assuming the experienced player & novice aren't conjoined twins & spend a reasonable time apart, they can use a tuner, or recording software to highlight the errors & remedy them (just like using a refractometer). If you don't recognise the tune (or tasting notes with the coffee) you can carry on making yourself happy...if you want others to share in & enjoy the experience, maybe even pay for it, you might want to hit a reasonable level of achievement. X-Factor & BGT are rife with folk with lots of heart, soul, self belief, but if someone comes on & plays an instrument/sings badly despite "really caring", do you laugh it off, or buy their next single? When I go into a café & order a coffee I don't want the result of an experiment, every one being wildly different - I'm unlikely to return the drink unless it is absolutely foul, but I expect it to be within reasonable bounds. I expect all my coffee to taste at least "very nice" (it's the only reason I can see for making/drinking it - because it is supposed to taste nice - even commodity/non-specialty grade coffee taste OK when well made), when it doesn't, I work out why, so in the next 2 or 3 goes I get back to "very nice" again.

Sorry, long sprawling post, but hey, it's called "having a style" 

Short version: If you don't know what grinder you want, buy the best you can afford, as long as it isn't so ugly you can't bear to look at it, make sure it fits where you want to put it & doses in the way you intend (doser/on demand/single dose), try before you buy if possible, then ...here's the bit that everyone wants to shortcut...learn how to use it.


----------



## 4085

Daren, thats your take on things. boots is big enough to answer me if he wants to and does not need your input, however well intentioned. He and I get on very well which extends to winding each other up on a regular basis. Are you now going to tell me and the rest of the forum how you interrupted ****. I promise you that you will be wrong and whatever I said is not offensive. it is just your pc way of looking at things wrongly.


----------



## grumpydaddy

Hahaha.... Saucer of milk anyone? You guys put a smile on my face this morning then, you dfk mention the veloce.... What is that I wonder?

Enter google: and I get this: 




Really ??


----------



## Mrboots2u

I'll bow out of this thread and its become unproductive and less debate and discussion and more dogmatic than I had hoped. ( In large this is a lot down to me apologies )

Peace out people...


----------



## 4085

Brilliant. Makes me happy not to have seen that before QuickMill made their version!


----------



## Daren

I'm not going to get drawn into an argument with you because you will never concede you're wrong, therefore this will be my last post on the subject of you making offensive personal remarks.

You are right that Boots is big enough to answer to you if he wishes to do so, and I am fully aware of the regular winding up. I maintain that regardless of how Boots takes your "four eyed" comment I find it offensive. I come to this forum because it's light hearted, friendly and useful. Comments like are little more than school yard bullying an will alienate a large portion of members. They are unnecessary.

All I ask is you think who else you may offend before you post.

That's me done.


----------



## oop north

grumpydaddy said:


> then, you dfk mention the veloce.... What is that I wonder?
> 
> Enter google: and I get this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really ??


oh my! Lost for words!


----------



## 4085

Daren said:


> I'm not going to get drawn into an argument with you because you will never concede you're wrong, therefore this will be my last post on the subject of you making offensive personal remarks.
> 
> You are right that Boots is big enough to answer to you if he wishes to do so, and I am fully aware of the regular winding up. I maintain that regardless of how Boots takes your "four eyed" comment I find it offensive. I come to this forum because it's light hearted, friendly and useful. Comments like are little more than school yard bullying an will alienate a large portion of members. They are unnecessary.
> 
> All I ask is you think who else you may offend before you post.
> 
> That's me done.


Have you got 4 eyes as well by any chance (as I do) or are you just a sympathiser?


----------



## charris

dfk41 said:


> I have a very good understanding of the gear I have mate. I changed my machines this year, simply because I sold the L1 in preparation of the Veloce turning up. That took longer than expected, then mine had to go back to have the right sized boiler retro fitted. The GS came along. Where many sat and drooled and made all the usual sounds that people who have no intention of buying dribbled, I actioned the situation and nicked the GS. After a week it was easy to see that whilst desirable, it was absolutely nothing special. The Vesuvius, which by the way, you now own was also nicked by virtue of the fact I managed to part ex a grinder I had owned three times before, so you benefitted from my generosity.
> 
> I am back in lever land and thats where I am staying. Anyone who knows me understands that if I buy something, it is not because I have the biggest cheque book but that because all parties concerned are happy with the deal.
> 
> I reckon I know my gear a lot better than you know yours........have we slapped each other in the face enough, or do you want to continue
> 
> xxx


Dave I only have one question which I intended to pm you about this by the way:

You are somehow experienced in this hobby BUT the way or how FAST you change machines or grinders I am 100% convinced that you do not truly test them or try them at their full potential. A Vesuvious would need at least 3-6 months to be fully tested in my opinion in order to understand the machine and make the best put of it. Can you really explore a GS3 in 3 weeks? A versalab needs a couple of months to season it and then learn to adjust it. An ek43 is a grinder that needs lots of testing also in order to have an opinion about it.

The testing could be extremely detailed (like the posts from Ronsil on his Vesuvius) or even simpler but there has to be some science: some simple measurements, weights, temps, timing, different pressure, different grind particle sizes, all these have to be somehow tried and require time.

I am also very interested in trying lots of gear but I allow at least a few months on each so that I can form a logical opinion based in lots of testing.

This is not to offend you or anything, it is something I wanted to mention and ask you about. I think if you allowed a bit more time on each then your opinion could be different and probably less people would try to challenge you.

P.S. I know that you like to stir things up and go against the mass opinion.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

dfk41 said:


> And Bootsie, yes, machines and grinders are my toys........should I ask ant for refractometer?


You'd stand a better chance with Dec


----------



## urbanbumpkin

dfk41 said:


> Boots, **** off you four eyed argumentative moderator.


That's just offensive. No need for that mate.


----------



## Obnic

I think I'd object to being called a moderator as well!


----------



## Drewster

Obnic said:


> I think I'd object to being called a moderator as well!


Wot you talkin' about mo*er***r?


----------



## Thecatlinux

Drewster said:


> Wot you talkin' about mo*er***r?


thats just a play on asterisks that is .


----------



## Drewster

Thecatlinux said:


> thats just a play on asterisks that is .


You c**t f*** c***

(You can't fool Cat!)


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## Obnic

On the measurement of the elusive

Some days I just make coffee. On these days I'm happy to have an audience because I need someone to marvel at my demi-god shots.

Some days I want to understand (a) why my coffee tastes as it does (that looked right but tasted bleugh, why? / what exactly did that profile change achieve? Is a flat tamper better?) and (b) whether it can taste better / as good but different. (I like ristretti but what happens when I push the extraction yield higher.)

Other days I want to do something that looks so complicated and boring that my family give me some peace.

The latter two are when a refractometer comes into play but I have to be in the requisite mindset and on my own so I have empathy with both views advanced here.

Other more talented and sociable types will not see the need or attraction of measuring instruments but then - I suggest - they might be gently ribbed for exhibiting almost exactly the same obsessive behaviour through the medium of multiple grinders and espresso machines 

Live and let live I say.

Now where are my specs? What's that you say?


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## Drewster

Obnic said:


> <snip> I want to do something that looks so complicated and boring that my family give me some peace.....<snip>
> 
> </snip></snip>


That sounds....... well familiar!


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## dwalsh1

Mrboots2u I told you last night this thread was going to get nasty


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## 4085

charris said:


> Dave I only have one question which I intended to pm you about this by the way:
> 
> You are somehow experienced in this hobby BUT the way or how FAST you change machines or grinders I am 100% convinced that you do not truly test them or try them at their full potential. A Vesuvious would need at least 3-6 months to be fully tested in my opinion in order to understand the machine and make the best put of it. Can you really explore a GS3 in 3 weeks? A versalab needs a couple of months to season it and then learn to adjust it. An ek43 is a grinder that needs lots of testing also in order to have an opinion about it.
> 
> The testing could be extremely detailed (like the posts from Ronsil on his Vesuvius) or even simpler but there has to be some science: some simple measurements, weights, temps, timing, different pressure, different grind particle sizes, all these have to be somehow tried and require time.
> 
> I am also very interested in trying lots of gear but I allow at least a few months on each so that I can form a logical opinion based in lots of testing.
> 
> This is not to offend you or anything, it is something I wanted to mention and ask you about. I think if you allowed a bit more time on each then your opinion could be different and probably less people would try to challenge you.
> 
> P.S. I know that you like to stir things up and go against the mass opinion.


hiya and a good question. I was pretty much set up when I bought my first L1. I had a problem with it and got a refund, which led me to the Strega. I did not enjoy that machine, finding the amount of time it took to empty the puck before disengaging the pf safely to be a pain. So, an L1 came back to me which I kept for 12 months. During 6 months of that time I had a Mythos, which I ditched for a K10 fresh which I liked. I bought another Mythos to try against the k10 but it got moulder. I then bought a K8 to sit against the K10 and these were a good match. I found myself using the conical less and less due to retention, so sold it. The K8 then eventually went for a K10 Pro Barista which was dosered. I tried it, liked it but it was a faff on so sold. I then bought a Mythos which I still have. In amongst all that lot a few other grinders come and go but they are just things I buy to try with no intention of keeping.

The Sage, Vesuvius and GS3 were just distractions. it took me 3 days to work out that I was not remotely impressed with the Vesuvius and its abilities. Some will not understand that at all, but I have a simple approach to life, which is encapsulated by my reference to espresso shots, which is drink or sink (MJ, i waste very few shots indeed. I am pretty experienced and although not always interested enough to join in technical discussions can still churn out an acceptable shot, most of the time) so the idea of playing and tinkering and experimenting just turned me off. Remember, I bought the Sage at my price and sold it on in similar fashion. The GS was exactly the same. Like many, always wanted one. One came up. I was going to be able to make a slight detour to see it on my route to loch Lomond. they accepted a daft bid on which I did not budge and the rest is history. The Sage, I always secretly wanted one to try. I had no machine for 2 weeks. Lakeland have a no quibble guarantee. I might have kept the Sage for fun, but it made Jampit taste like some floral, lemon grunge produced by light roast roasters and that is sacrilege!

So, 3 boxes ticked because at that point in time, I was ablate outlay the funds. If the same thing happened now, I would not be able to think about it, so, Carpie Diem and all that.


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## Phil104

Goodness knows what the OP makes of all this - good entertainment value, I hope. On a positive note, I am grateful to dfk for highlighting in another thread Reiss's report on Scott Rao's talk. Going back to to where this thread started and as Reiss notes:

'Scott drove home the importance of the grinder, the grinder trumping everything, and having the ability to transform any level of espresso machine and its good to be reminded of that message'.

Peace and good will - and I'm just off to clean my glasses.


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## Obnic

dfk41 said:


> ..... it took me 3 days to work out that I was not remotely impressed with the Vesuvius and its abilities. .


I'd like to revise my earlier remarks.

Burn him! He's a witch!

View attachment 10593


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## mcharrogate

As the OP - bemused and slightly amused!!


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## Spazbarista

Awesome display of cock-waving, with a few bemused onlookers, then a bit of mutual dick sucking over Nero, back to cock-waving then finished off by dfk pulling his trousers down and doing a sh1t on the carpet

This is one of those threads where everybody gets slaughtered.


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## MWJB

Spazbarista said:


> Awesome display of cock-waving, with a few bemused onlookers, then a bit of mutual dick sucking over Nero, back to cock-waving then finished off by dfk pulling his trousers down and doing a sh1t on the carpet
> 
> This is one of those threads where everybody gets slaughtered.


Followed by a one-line, condescending critique of its content, with little to contribute to the actual discussion by Spaz...yup, pretty much a typical forum thread in that respect. C'mon, at least give us something, perhaps, "Get a grinder that makes your coffee taste like coffee"? ;-)

Requests for recommendations on gear and subsequent discussion could all be answered briefly & honestly - "Everyone will tell you to buy what they have (beans, grinder, machine), they will all tell you it's great, they might all be right, some may be wrong, you won't know until you have put your money down & it's too late. Otherwise, it's what you do with it that counts." Perhaps it could be made a sticky and we could forego such discussions altogether? But what would we talk about then?


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## Mrboots2u

I'm not gonna lock the thread as locking a thread doesn't change interactions between people , it just cuts of one avenue of expression. Plus my recent experience of closing another thread called into question areas re moderation I don't want to revisit....

If people wish to abstain from this " debate" and let's this die, then they have the power to simple divert their focus somewhere else and somewhere more positive.

Cheers


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## The Systemic Kid

Seems line between argument/debate and personal insult, however amusingly intended/put, may well have been crossed. Let's not have to resort to closing threads down because some of the content is viewed as unnecessary and/or unacceptable. After all, the season of goodwill is upon us all


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## hotmetal

I've just spent so long reading this that I now don't have time to get my rocket up to temperature before I have to go out. Coffee fail! And so far all I've learnt is that the earth is flat, unless you believe it's conical.


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## Drewster

hotmetal said:


> I've just spent so long reading this that I now don't have time to get my rocket up to temperature before I have to go out. Coffee fail! And so far all I've learnt is that the earth is flat, unless you believe it's conical.


I know it's a little late but"

*STEP 1 - Switch on coffee machine.......*

*
*Other Steps in pretty well any order:

- Sh*t, Shower & Shave

- Browse forum

- Walk dogs

- Discuss days/weeks events with other 1/2

- Get dressed

- Make breakfast

- etc etc

*STEP WHEN READY - Make coffee*

- Continue with other less important steps

Repeat - *STEP WHEN READY - Make coffee* - as required

Tut! I don't understand the youth of today!


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## hotmetal

Yes that is my normal routine. The factor I forgot to mention is that we have had a power cut this morning so all I could do was browse the forum on my phone until it came back on. I'll be late but the machine is coming up to temp as we type!


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## Obnic

mcharrogate said:


> As the OP - bemused and slightly amused!!


Fair point. I've gone back to read your original question and it's quite a shrewd on actually.

If I've understood (please correct me if I'm wrong), you asked:

(A) whether there was a law of diminishing returns when upgrading a grinder but sticking with an entry level machine like a Gaggia Classic, and if so

(B) where is the cross-over point where upgrading the espresso machine will get better results than pushing on to the next best grinder?

I'd like to see this thread restarted actually. This is a good question. It's possibly the missing link between @CoffeeChap's two pieces on what you get for your money with grinders and machines.


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## mcharrogate

@obnic - that's pretty much exactly what I was asking, yes, albeit I think you've summarised better than me!


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## 7493

I think it would be great to start another thread posing Obnic's points A & B as questions! Please do.


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## MWJB

It's a hard one to answer succinctly, a classic is an entry level machine & would typically be paired with a capable but cheaper grinder, most folk would upgrade machines before lashing out on £1K-£2K grinder.

Buy the grinder now, after researching whether it will suit your needs re. dosing, aesthetics, space available.

The grinder produces the grind & therein the potential for great shots. If the grind is poor it will hold back the machine. The grinder though, can't account for temperature stability, lack of preinfusion, or other factors that would lead to a machine upgrade.


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## Spazbarista

MWJB said:


> Followed by a one-line, condescending critique of its content, with little to contribute to the actual discussion by Spaz...yup, pretty much a typical forum thread in that respect. C'mon, at least give us something, perhaps, "Get a grinder that makes your coffee taste like coffee"? ;-)


Followed by a characteristically humourless response from you, Mark.


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## Glenn

I have just been alerted to this thread and have read through

Can I please ask that no offensive comments about another person are posted

I don't mind the usual witty remarks but sentences such as "**** off you four eyed argumentative moderator" could result in time out - even if said in jest - as it does not give a good impression to newer members who do not know the personalities behind the posts


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## MWJB

Spazbarista said:


> Followed by a characteristically humourless response from you, Mark.


It would make life easier for me, being humour impaired, if you could start your jokes with "Doctor, doctor..."/"Knock knock"/"I say, I say..." then I'll recognise a joke is on it's way, switch to humour mode & respond with measured & commensurate hilarity.

It is the way that I tell them...(cue laughter)...(is this better?)...come here, there is more...


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## Obnic

In the spirit of doing first and apologising later, I've opened a new thread with the original question.

(now closed - click here to continue with reasoned debate)

Having done it I realise that this is moderator territory. In my defence I'll say I was emboldened by Rob, Matt and The Chap who seemed to like the idea.


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