# Third wave



## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

I've heard this term bandied around a lot. I have the impression it relates to fruity flavours rather than chocolatey flavours. Would you describe Hasbean as Third Wave?

Would you describe Coffee Compass (who to me seem the opposite of Hasbean) as non-Third Wave? Second wave?

Or is it not as simple as that?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Its a really stupid term, but Id Describe them both as Third Wave.

First Wave was the Italians.

Second Wave was $bucks/Costa

Third Wave is all the new independent roasters + cafes that really strive(d) to push quality up.

You are right though, the term does often get used for the lighter style of roasting.

You also need to fit the old school coffee roasters and shops in there somewhere with their huge tins of stale coffee labelled simply as 'Ethiopia' that still stick around to this day.

Did I say I think its a stupid term?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

It's got nothing to do with fruity flavours or any other specific flavours, coffees labelled as 3rd wave can be chocolatey, caramel, leathery etc. (conversely highly roasted 1st & 2nd wave coffees can still taste of fruit). It's more about not roasting so far that the origin of the bean is masked by flavours that are a byproduct of a roast. Developing the distinctive flavour of the bean itself...though obviously there will be some subjectivity as to which point this occurs. In reality there's a lot of dovetailing, even within the products from one roaster.

It's probably not even about specifically roasting light, I'd say that's more Nordic driven, there are roasters in the US, undoubtedly 3rd wave, that roast darker than we might be used to here.

As Aaron says, it's a horrible term, or is often mis-appropriated in such a way that connotations are usually less than flattering.

Light/medium roasts are less soluble & harder to extract, underextracted coffee is more prone to sharp, unripe, acidic fruit flavours...a lot of people may try such coffees & then give up because they're not getting past this point, leading to an unrealistic appraisal.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

3rd wave was so last year, i am now producing 4th wave at home on my roaster!


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

Thanks! OK one more dumb question.

If the Italians were the first wave, was Italian coffee originally from beans grown in Italy, or was it always imported?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

wintoid said:


> Thanks! OK one more dumb question.
> 
> If the Italians were the first wave, was Italian coffee originally from beans grown in Italy, or was it always imported?


Beans are grown in the tropics, not in Italy, so yes, it was always imported. Apparently left in Italy after the Ottomans withdrew. "Italian coffee" is more relevant to style of preparation.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

And of course there are written stories about coffee houses in the UK and Western Europe long before the 'first wave'!


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

Interesting, thanks. When I think how hard it has been for me to get a taste that I actually like, it's a wonder that the coffee bean ever took off. Still I suppose even when you get it wrong, the smell is incredible.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

aaronb said:


> And of course there are written stories about coffee houses in the UK and Western Europe long before the 'first wave'!


Someone should really do some research in Ethiopia, Kenya and the other tropics these beans come from, I bet they find a rudimentary 'wave' there as well. "3rd wave BC" ??


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

wintoid said:


> Interesting, thanks. When I think how hard it has been for me to get a taste that I actually like, it's a wonder that the coffee bean ever took off. Still I suppose even when you get it wrong, the smell is incredible.


Interesting observation, sometimes I genuinely think trying to hit a great aroma & a great taste in the cup at the same time can be making a rod for our own backs. It was noted by EE Lockhart (food scientist and Coffee Brewing Institute legend) that the aroma of coffee extracts almost immediately, whilst the dissolved solids take longer. Coffee on the low side of extraction can often smell amazing, less so on the higher side, but may be sweeter in taste?

Folk often say it smells better than it tastes, I tend to think that it can smell different to how it tastes, but should taste good & smell good, if not always both at the same time?


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

Wake up you lot !

As it's near the end of 2014, I'm already putting the finishing touches to my 5th wave, for it's launch on 1st January 2015.....LOL

Merry Christmas !!


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## AussieEx (Jul 10, 2013)

The lighter roasts seem particularly dominant in the UK specialty coffee market. I haven't yet figured out why.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Following fashion in the US.....which is where 3rd wave term comes from.

It is no coincidence that trendy coffee shops are very hipster, which is another part of US fashion...white educated, middle class and young. Lots of roasters are jumping on the bandwagon. Personally I find the style of coffee undrinkable as espresso and I think the pendulum will swing away and back to more balanced flavours rather than going for extremes all the time. It'll never swing back all the way though.


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## AussieEx (Jul 10, 2013)

I'm probably just biased, but the flavour profiles most Australian specialty roasters (a better term than 3rd wave...) go for is just that bit more balanced than I find here. I had no complaints in Portland, though!


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

In the UK a greater %age of people drink their coffee with milk which is why I think the lighter roasts have been allowed to flourish. There's no way you'd get away with this kind of coffee in some European countries.

I almost exclusively drink espresso and I have to say that I don't hugely enjoy coffees from many modern coffee shops. Doesn't stop me buying from them though


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I think its all down to the way drip/filter coffee has boomed, i feel these lighter roasts appeal to this area better.

For me i love a dark/strong drink, not fussed with the fruity stuff, would have a cup of tea if i wanted that!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> I think its all down to the way drip/filter coffee has boomed, i feel these lighter roasts appeal to this area better.
> 
> For me i love a dark/strong drink, not fussed with the fruity stuff, would have a cup of tea if i wanted that!


What about strong dark fruity coffee? Many "3rd wave" proponents have pushed much stronger coffee than was typical in traditional Italian espresso, lighter roasts are more driven by the Nordic style than by 3rd wave per se, as a nation the Norwegians brew their coffee typically stronger than Europe/US.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

There's a weird obsession with darker toasts on this forum!

UK and Nordic roasters don't generally come with the cultural baggage of countries like Italy (and to a lesser extent Australasia, where the coffee culture was in part developed by immigrants from Southern Europe), so can roast for the best taste rather than to what some cultural norm tells them they should do.

Light roasts, when roasted and extracted properly, show far more flavours and complexity than darker roasts. I've had some beans from US and Australasian roasters (brought back by friends and customers) and have been really disappointed at how dark and one dimensional they are.

Light roasts sometimes get a bad reputation for a number of reasons. Updosing and pulling short (as was fashionable in many places until recently) usually results in under extraction. Sometimes the envelope was pushed with lightness as well. Furthermore, an adjustment in taste is often required if you have spent years drinking dark roasts.

I reckon that if any of you were to come into my shop I could serve you a light roast bean that you'd like. Perhaps that's a challenge for 2015!

JP


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

strong or weak, i cant get into the fruity stuff.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> strong or weak, i cant get into the fruity stuff.


Roasted by you or anyone ?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jjprestidge said:


> Oerhaps that's a challenge for 2016!


You must be confident if you only need a year of practice


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Anyone.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

With regards to third wave, it's strange that everything has to have a label these days, why does it have to be a thing, it's all coffee just different peoples takes on it. The way I see it variety and choice are good things. I went to San Fran earlier in the year, the beans certainly looked darker than many I've had from UK roasters however some of the drinks we had out there were off the chart! For me it's about how the bean is developed not the colour of it. It's all horses for courses, drink what you like and enjoy it.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> With regards to third wave, it's strange that everything has to have a label these days, why does it have to be a thing, it's all coffee just different peoples takes on it. The way I see it variety and choice are good things. I went to San Fran earlier in the year, the beans certainly looked darker than many I've had from UK roasters however some of the drinks we had out there were off the chart! For me it's about how the bean is developed not the colour of it. It's all horses for courses, drink what you like and enjoy it.


plus one .....( also coffee is a fruit btw )


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Xpenno said:


> With regards to third wave, it's strange that everything has to have a label these days, why does it have to be a thing, it's all coffee just different peoples takes on it. The way I see it variety and choice are good things. * I went to San Fran earlier in the year, the beans certainly looked darker than many I've had from UK roasters* however some of the drinks we had out there were off the chart! For me it's about how the bean is developed not the colour of it. It's all horses for courses, drink what you like and enjoy it.


That is because in the US there is now a backlash against Third Wave style light roasts....they are heading back towards dark.

Give it another year and we'll follow on here.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I like medium roasts

Label me


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> I like medium roasts
> 
> Label me


2.5 Wave


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> 2.5 Wave


MrBoots v3.2


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Spazbarista said:


> That is because in the US there is now a backlash against Third Wave style light roasts....they are heading back towards dark.
> 
> Give it another year and we'll follow on here.


Not entirely, there are 3rd Wave establishments in the US never left what many would consider "dark" here (likewise aren't Monmouth & Union 3rd wave?). Plus there are those who are looking to go even lighter, roast colour is not indicative of a wave, more individual taste.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Not entirely, there are 3rd Wave establishments in the US never left what many would consider "dark" here (likewise aren't Monmouth & Union 3rd wave?). Plus there are those who are looking to go even lighter, roast colour is not indicative of a wave, more individual taste.


I had some nordic style roast , medium colour rwandan beans

I have no idea what wave they are ...

They were very tasty though .....

They did though taste of cherry


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Given that most coffee has 'fruit'-like attributes you rule out most coffee without it.

Kenya - gone

Ethiopia (the birth place of coffee and only place its indigenous) - gone

Guatemala - gone

Costa Rica - mostly gone

and so on ......

I guess you could roast it all the same way so it tastes like a commodity Brazilian/sumatran ... but then all the farmers would go into a different industry that pays more. Sad times


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

appropriate-roast-for-the-bean-wave for the win

(mostly medium)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> appropriate-roast-for-the-bean-wave for the win
> 
> (mostly medium)


needs to be catchier , if its gonna catch on


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> needs to be catchier , if its gonna catch on


Needs a gimmick does it? Hmmmm.

First flood


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Needs a gimmick does it? Hmmmm.
> 
> First flood


Brown Wave ? ( why am i not working in marketing ...... )


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## Steve7 (Dec 19, 2014)

Four pages of this and still no consensus


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Steve7 said:


> Four pages of this and still no consensus


What's good about a consensus?

Its a name given to some roasters and coffee professionals, half of which probably don't recognise they are third wave or agree what it is...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Steve7 said:


> Four pages of this and still no consensus


Expecting consensus might be a tad optimistic? It's not a poll. As with any thread, it's the discussion itself where the gems of information reside.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Name all the trendy roasters we use on here and i bet more than half of them would be medium or darker


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Spazbarista said:


> That is because in the US there is now a backlash against Third Wave style light roasts....they are heading back towards dark.
> 
> Give it another year and we'll follow on here.


Nonsense. The US has always roasted darker than Northern Europe speciality roasters. I had coffee from some of the bigger speciality roasters five years ago and they were darker then, especially the filters.

The trend is towards slightly darker roasts here, but I wouldn't call them medium.

JP


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Name all the trendy roasters we use on here and i bet more than half of them would be medium or darker


Depends what you mean by trendy. Of the roasters I use in the shop:

Round Hill - light

Square Mile - light (Red Brick is slightly darker)

Origin - light for SOs

Workshop - light

Nude - light

Extract - more towards medium than light, but don't use them very often

There is only a handful of other roasters that I'd consider using, so this is a representative sample.

JP


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

For me, this is quite an interesting thread, even if I feel slightly in danger of having started a bunfight









I have an Italian American friend who comes over occasionally, and I took him to one of my favourite coffee houses that serves Square Mile Red Brick. To say he hated the coffee would be an understatement. He felt it wasn't at all the same drink he was used to in Italy. I reckon if I fed him some Coffee Compass he'd feel differently, but I'm guessing.... I don't regularly drink espresso in Italy


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

wintoid said:


> For me, this is quite an interesting thread, even if I feel slightly in danger of having started a bunfight
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Italians generally don't get speciality coffee. One reason why they've never done well in the WBC.

JP


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Serendipitous post on Tumblr by Nick Cho, that's partly relevant to the discussion...

http://nickcho.tumblr.com/

...particularly, "In response to this call to action, roasting has gotten lighter and lighter as roasters appear to be afraid of ruining the coffee with the slightest hint of 'roastiness' (whatever that means),..."


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

More background....

http://imbibemagazine.com/Coffee-s-Third-Wave


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

wintoid said:


> I have an Italian American friend who comes over occasionally, and I took him to one of my favourite coffee houses that serves Square Mile Red Brick. To say he hated the coffee would be an understatement. He felt it wasn't at all the same drink he was used to in Italy. I reckon if I fed him some Coffee Compass he'd feel differently, but I'm guessing.... I don't regularly drink espresso in Italy


Coffee Compass is 3rd Wave. They identify estates, you get a roast date.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> I like medium roasts
> 
> Label me


I think I've concluded the beans I've enjoyed of late have been Medium-Light, Medium-dark roasts.

Am I in a Beige Wave?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

jjprestidge said:


> Depends what you mean by trendy. Of the roasters I use in the shop:
> 
> Round Hill - light
> 
> ...


I'd say nude were medium, drank a lot of their shit in London.

Rave - medium

Coffee compass -medium

Climpsons -medium dark

Monmouth -medium dark


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

And Hasbean...?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I prefer to refer to roasters as whether i enjoy their coffee and what that coffee tastes like , rather than categorise them by a limited colour spectrum but to each their own.....


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> I'd say nude were medium, drank a lot of their shit in London.
> 
> Rave - medium
> 
> ...


Nude are definitely not medium - I've run numerous espressos and filters from them in the shop and they've always been light.

Of those above - don't know Rave or Coffee Compass, but I wouldn't run Monmouth or Climpsons, or consider either as being at the forefront of speciality roasting.

JP


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> I prefer to refer to roasters as whether i enjoy their coffee and what that coffee tastes like , rather than categorise them by a limited colour spectrum but to each their own.....


Boom! Bang on I reckon, if you enjoy it who gives a fluff what wave its supposed to be.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Agree with jjprestige on monmouth and climpsons.

last coffee compass bag I saw was dark. very dark. brrr.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

wintoid said:


> And Hasbean...?


they tell you the roast level on every coffee on their site, but generally medium.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> I prefer to refer to roasters as whether i enjoy their coffee and what that coffee tastes like , rather than categorise them by a limited colour spectrum but to each their own.....


I think I'm inclined to agree with above.

I think your extraction preference can make a difference as to whether you think it's light medium or dark roasts.

I've tried beans in the past with a 18g->28g out 25secs approach that I've not enjoyed and have written off as Acidic light beans.

I've since tried the same beans and pulled a longer more extracted shot and have really liked them and realised I was under extracting on the first attempt and the roast was more medium than light.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

aaronb said:


> Agree with jjprestige on monmouth and climpsons.
> 
> last coffee compass bag I saw was dark. very dark. brrr.


But that is not necessarily relevant to the OP's question (whether 3rd wave?). We're mangling paradigms, if "3rd wave" is a thing or not, it is that thing (or isn't), irrespective of our personal preference. 3rd wave & light roasts may dovetail, but they're not necessarily synonymous.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Monmouth were probably drivers of speciality coffee in London, and climpson are def trendy enough to fit the bill.

I think it's about the beans themselves and not necessarily roasting style - the rave dsol tasted of blueberries, and plenty of has bean stuff tastes of chocolate.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Monmouth were probably drivers of speciality coffee in London, and climpson are def trendy enough to fit the bill.
> 
> I think it's about the beans themselves and not necessarily roasting style - the rave dsol tasted of blueberries, and plenty of has bean stuff tastes of chocolate.


You're right re Monmouth, but they're way behind the curve now. Climpson - not my scene at all.

JP


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Why do you not like climpson? They tick plenty of third wave boxes.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Why do you not like climpson? They tick plenty of third wave boxes.


I sample different roasters all the time; often, as is the case with Climpson, they turn out to be not our sort of thing. Usually this is due to a darker roast profile than I believe is optimum or a lack of balance.

JP


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

So is third wave only light to you?


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

Steve7 said:


> Four pages of this and still no consensus


I'm in consensus that there is no consensus


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> So is third wave only light to you?


Lighter, not light, as many third wave places in the US and Australasia especially serve medium roasts.

JP


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

so a speciality coffee house, sourcing and roasting its own beans, but roasting them a bit darker, would be 2.35 wave?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

PS i have been drinking and will argue excessively until i fall asleep


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Wish I got some snouts. I'd smoke one and feel sick, but at least it'd put me to bed.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Snout!! Word cracks me up


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Nicotines no good for you apart from using up you money, killing you and making your head spin after not having one for a while. Makes you look cool though


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Snout!! Word cracks me up


Ronny Barker Porridge. naff owff Gobber!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Snout!! Word cracks me up


Funny cockney thing innit....only other consumables in the house are overstrength microdots and now is neither the the time nor the place...


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Window pane them and goto bed. You'll wake up travelling down a stripy straw!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Funny cockney thing innit....only other consumables in the house are overstrength microdots and now is neither the the time nor the place...


See now I'm confused, I know microdots from yonks ago... Surely you cant be talking of the same thing?


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## michaelg (Jul 25, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Window pane them and goto bed. You'll wake up travelling down a stripy straw!


Wow this is like another language to me. Think I had a sheltered upbringing! Hard to believe but growing up in Glasgow only been offered drugs once when out and after going 'eh?!' one too many times the guy realised I wasn't his target market!


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## michaelg (Jul 25, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> I'd say nude were medium, drank a lot of their shit in


As part of the brown wave?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jeebsy said:


> Funny cockney thing innit....only other consumables in the house are overstrength microdots and now is neither the the time nor the place...


Surprised you didn't put your blue coat on


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Surprised you didn't put your blue coat on


I can occasionally exercise some degree of control


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## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

Third wave is specifically referring to the actual establishment (and those who frequent them) who sell light roasted coffee exclusively to people with excessive facial hair, jeans through which you can see their steam wand. They also wear the occasional flat cap.

They order a double espresso,which they pretend to like, before peddling away on their fixed wheel bike to grab a pulled pork sandwich from a bloke serving from the hatch of a VW camper in trendy hoxton.

These are the same people who pretend to like IPA that is hoppier than a really hoppy thing and think their girlfriends look good in wide rim glasses and straw hats (even when they don't need glasses)

Its a trend, a lifestyle... The roasts will get darker, the reclaimed timber tables will go back to the yard and everyone will be drinking carlsberg again soon.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Danm said:


> Third wave is specifically referring to the actual establishment (and those who frequent them) who sell light roasted coffee exclusively to people with excessive facial hair, jeans through which you can see their steam wand. They also wear the occasional flat cap.
> 
> They order a double espresso,which they pretend to like, before peddling away on their fixed wheel bike to grab a pulled pork sandwich from a bloke serving from the hatch of a VW camper in trendy hoxton.
> 
> ...


Please [insert Deity of choice] NOOOOOOO! Not that!!


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## michaelg (Jul 25, 2013)

Drewster said:


> Please [insert Deity of choice] NOOOOOOO! Not that!!


Carling surely?! None of that Continental pish - UKIP will see to that! If the Danes hate to see it leave they can keep it!

Seriously though, hipsters may be easy to take the piss out of but looking at it from the other end, the UK is probably the country with the highest per capita consumption of instant - that's nothing to be proud of regardless of your roast colour preferences.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Danm said:


> ...jeans through which you can see their steam wand.


Brilliant! And yet deeply disturbing at the same time. Pass the mental floss!



Danm said:


> ... These are the same people who pretend to like IPA that is hoppier than a really hoppy thing


Ah so now i know what Hip hop is!

(Actually I'm quite fond of a hoppy ale in summer, to be fair, but my bikes have way too many gears for me to be a hipster. When ah wuz a lad, hipsters were trousers cut the 60s way. )


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## AussieEx (Jul 10, 2013)

Wow this has taken off in the last few days! I must admit I tend to prefer chocolates and caramels to figs and honey, but not exclusively!


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