# Dialing in on new beans with the SGP AND DTP



## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

Hi everyone,

I've had my machines for a couple of weeks, and prior to these I only ever had preground coffee with a bialetti stove top. Obviously there is quite a large learning curve with making espresso, but I seem to take a while to dial in on all the variables and struggle to get a half decent espresso!

I normally do 17g in and 34 out, with 0.1g scales, my tamping is all over the place I'm sure, which with practise and a motta tamper I'm hoping I can improve soon!

I either pull a shot slightly too fast or way too slow, and if I get it right in terms of time, by adjusting the grinder, it runs thin and bitter. Could this be due to channeling?

Ive also just switched to pact beans from supermarket beans that I was given and hence felt obliged to use! But the first time I used them I choked the machine (on the same settings as the supermarket beans). I can video it on Tuesday when I'm back home.

I think I am at the frustrating stage, but I will persevere!!

Thanks in advance everyone


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Invest in a mini whisk. I've found with the setup you have it's all down to getting the prep right.

Evenly distribute the grounds, knock out any clumps and a good level tamp. Don't worry too much about how much pressure you tamp with, just keep it consistent.

With regards to time, don't stress too much about the 30 seconds always mentioned. I would often run up to 40 seconds with 17g>30g. Rely on taste and adjust according. Takes a while though and if it's a new grinder it may start to wear in and change all over again haha.

I fit a dimmer kit to my DTP which I found helped massively with a lighter roast.

Good luck


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

That's a fairly short brew ratio, you ay you are dialling in the variables, but brew ratio has a very big impact and you don't seem to be varying this. Try 18g dose to 74g out in about 25s (+/-5s), if it tastes OK but is too weak see how much finer you can grind & bring it down by 9g each time until the flavour shifts towards sourness again.

See if you can get a gram or two more in the PF, it might be easier to see if your tamp is level with the stock tamper for now.

What do you call "too fast/slow"? Try not to dial in grind by shot time, change the grind setting to effect a change in flavour balance. A bad shot & a good shot at the same ratio could take the same time, even at a different grind.

If you're choking the machine, you are way too fine.


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

Cheers both, I'll make sure I spend a bit more time prepping, and I think my girlfriend has a spare mini whisk (I'll have to take it quietly after all those times I mocked her for such a silly little thing). I don't worry too much about time when I'm pulling the shot, I worry more about yield and taste, but if it's pulling in 15 seconds or 45 seconds for 1:2 ratio and tastes bitter or sour, I know I've got to adjust the grind!

I'll have a go with different ratios too, start to get a better idea about different flavours etc.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It could be worth checking the weight you are using via the razor tool. Bean weight to volume varies. I found that to be a good guide but a BE benefited from adding a bit more, some fraction of a gram.

Sometimes signs of channelling can be seen on top of the used puck ranging from holes to a very uneven surface. I find that fill height can have a big impact on that.







I recently found on my new machine that too high can cause holes. Never happened on my BE. DTP's may differ again. I also find a soggy or even rather wet puck is a bad idea.

I use some really sticky and also some really oily beans, they are literally coated with oil. My SGP has never produced clumps that need a whisk to break them up. The sticky ones are worse but they fall apart at the touch of a finger. It's never jammed up due to using these either.

As MWJB pointed out you can vary ratios well past the often mentioned 1 to 2 in 30 sec. It might be a good place to start but for instance you can the vary that by altering the time, shorter or longer. Different beans behave differently. Then grind can be adjusted and ratio altered that way - then change that grind's output via time. The aim is too obtain a drink that the drinker likes.

Tamping can have an effect - I'd say too much is a better option than too little so really press on. I found the Sage tamper fine but a larger handle probably does help apply more pressure.

While you are messing about with this area you might like to try emptying the grinder and running it until the burrs are clear and then weighing beans in and running the grinder until it's gobbled those up. You should get very consistent results when the grinder has settled but the output will change a bit each time you alter the setting and then go pretty constant again. Cleaning the grinder out can mess this up so I would suggest you don't do that even if you change beans - just assume that the old bean may influence taste for the first 30 or 40g of the new bean. The biggest culprit in that area is bits of beans lodged on top of the outer burr - easy to remove.

John

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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

I think I was getting confused between bitter and sour so I purposefully pulled a shot short and one long to taste over and under extracted.

I think I get it now, but can there be a very fine line between sour and bitter? I then dosed 17g and extracted 30g and it tasted sour, then 17g->34g and it was bitter.. the pour seemed great on both and both resulted in a very thick crema!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jonnycooper29 said:


> I think I was getting confused between bitter and sour so I purposefully pulled a shot short and one long to taste over and under extracted.
> 
> I think I get it now, but can there be a very fine line between sour and bitter? I then dosed 17g and extracted 30g and it tasted sour, then 17g->34g and it was bitter.. the pour seemed great on both and both resulted in a very thick crema!


You're suggesting a linear relationship between under & over-extraction based on sour vs bitter. Pulling 17g to 30g & then to 34g is not a big enough swing to go from under to over extraction at the same/similar grind setting. More than likely they were both under, one was under & sour, the other under & bitter. If +/-2g was enough to cause that kind of difference in a shot, no one would be able to make espresso. I don't know how long you would have to pull a shot at the 17:30g grind to hit over-extraction, you'd probably need a regular mug.


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

It was at the exact same grind setting, with as similar tamp as I can give. I think I need to get over the under extraction hurdle by grinding finer with the same brew ratio as I was trying before,1:2, does this sound reasonable? Your last comment ties in with a shot I pulled yesterday, same grind setting for 1:2 ratio but did 1:3 and it still tasted sour, so still underextracted?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jonnycooper29 said:


> It was at the exact same grind setting, with as similar tamp as I can give. I think I need to get over the under extraction hurdle by grinding finer with the same brew ratio as I was trying before,1:2, does this sound reasonable? Your last comment ties in with a shot I pulled yesterday, same grind setting for 1:2 ratio but did 1:3 and it still tasted sour, so still underextracted?


After a point grinding finer will cause extraction to stop increasing, then it will drop. Too fine a grind might also give you a silty, chewy texture accompanied with bitter flavours. Yes, I'd guess the 1:3 shot was still under-extracted, try 1:4, 1:5...they will get weaker, maybe too weak for you, but if the flavour balances out you'll need then to grind finer to get that flavour balance at a shorter ratio & a stronger drink.


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

Thanks a lot, this really helps! So to try the 1:4 ratio, should I keep the grind the same? I'm guessing if I go coarser this defeats the point of trying the 1:4?

Ill try try it tomorrow and fingers crossed it improves! I feel like I'm burning through the beans to get a half decent espresso!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

jonnycooper29 said:


> Cheers both, I'll make sure I spend a bit more time prepping, and I think my girlfriend has a spare mini whisk (I'll have to take it quietly after all those times I mocked her for such a silly little thing). I don't worry too much about time when I'm pulling the shot, I worry more about yield and taste, but if it's pulling in 15 seconds or 45 seconds for 1:2 ratio and tastes bitter or sour, I know I've got to adjust the grind!
> 
> I'll have a go with different ratios too, start to get a better idea about different flavours etc.


You do need to worry about shot time. See page 17 of your manual. Page 18 is worth noting as well on time to flow during infusion. The output is usually viewed as 30g for a single and 60 for a double. Say you have 10g in the single basket that implies a ratio of 1 to 3. The double ratio is probably higher, I can't remember the capacity off hand. They give more information on basket size in the BE manual which uses the same baskets. 8 to 10g in the single and 15 to 18g in the double. Personally I don't thing the high ends are achievable but grinds and beans vary. The single would more typically hold 9.5g max. I'd suspect 16 - 17 for the double. The razor tool will give you an idea to use as a starting point.







Wish I'd used it the first time I bought a machine it would have saved a lot of time.

In my case the ratio's Sage imply worked well but that will vary according to the bean that is used. If you want to do 1 : 2 you might try 15g in the single and 30g out in 30 sec or maybe 16 and 32 out again in 30 sec. However there are other styles of drink - ristretto for instance, single 22g double 44. That I under stand it would be done by reducing time proportionally or it could be done by finer grind and the same time. You might even find that you prefer the drink if you up the ratio by exceeding 30 sec.

Really shot time is rather important, It's also worth noting the comment on preheating the portafilter and basket as the manual mentions.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

If you grind coarser you run the risk of going too coarse & either hitting the same low extraction at longer ratio, or even hitting lower extraction.

Look at it this way - a certain degree of grind (fine) will give you a good extraction at 1:3, a little coarser might do it at 1:4, coarser still might need 1:6.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

@MWJB

The Sage manual mentions ok shot time of 25 to 35 sec. Given that some one finds a time that suites I feel that's too big a range if for instance 30 sec produced best results. It's not something I have to contend with on machines I have used most. They do what I have set via a press off a button but I understand people generally use timers so numbers such as 30 sec get held pretty tightly. That way fluctuations in output are less likely to matter. Some accept those, some weigh out as well. Personally I don't think that it's worth doing that but views vary. Add those to time variation as well though and ????????????

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> @MWJB
> 
> The Sage manual mentions ok shot time of 25 to 35 sec. Given that some one finds a time that suites I feel that's too big a range if for instance 30 sec produced best results. It's not something I have to contend with on machines I have used most. They do what I have set via a press off a button but I understand people generally use timers so numbers such as 30 sec get held pretty tightly. That way fluctuations in output are less likely to matter. Some accept those, some weigh out as well. Personally I don't think that it's worth doing that but views vary. Add those to time variation as well though and ????????????
> 
> ...


It is normal for shots of a similar extraction to vary in time, depending on the coffee and the grinder used.

Even using the same grinder I'd expect 2/3 of shots to vary by ~+/-3sec.

Illy suggest the range of espresso shots to be 15 to 50s, INEI & SCAA 20-30s.

Trying to cram all your shots into a very narrow range will cause inconsistency, trying to make them all 30s will guarantee it & would be bad advice. I have had shots with the same coffee at the same ratio, different grinder extract to >18.5% to

Beans cannot tell the time, they have different densities and grinders produce different resistances at different settings. Brew ratio, at a known grind setting, is the biggest driver of extraction. This is known & verifiable.

Why would sticking to 30s & changing everything else, including basket, be simpler than aiming for a brew ratio & just changing grind?


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

MWJB said:


> After a point grinding finer will cause extraction to stop increasing, then it will drop. Too fine a grind might also give you a silty, chewy texture accompanied with bitter flavours. Yes, I'd guess the 1:3 shot was still under-extracted, try 1:4, 1:5...they will get weaker, maybe too weak for you, but if the flavour balances out you'll need then to grind finer to get that flavour balance at a shorter ratio & a stronger drink.


Just tried 17g->68g on the same setting, and it was very drinkable! Hooray! It actually only took 36 seconds, so I guess I can go a tad finer and extract about 51g and see where that leads me! This is one of the first non-sour shots I've pulled from this batch of beans..


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

ajohn said:


> While you are messing about with this area you might like to try emptying the grinder and running it until the burrs are clear and then weighing beans in and running the grinder until it's gobbled those up. You should get very consistent results when the grinder has settled but the output will change a bit each time you alter the setting and then go pretty constant again. Cleaning the grinder out can mess this up so I would suggest you don't do that even if you change beans - just assume that the old bean may influence taste for the first 30 or 40g of the new bean. The biggest culprit in that area is bits of beans lodged on top of the outer burr - easy to remove.
> 
> -


So whilst I'm changing the grind settings to find the right grind, you think I should not fill the hopper and only put in the amount I need? And double check the output weight too. Or am I misunderstanding? I find that if I want to adjust the grind setting I need to run it for a few seconds to purge the grinder of the old grind.


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## AndyJH (Apr 25, 2017)

Personally I weigh in and weigh out each shot from my SGP. I adjust the setting by running it with no beans but running. Not sure if this is the best method but it wastes the least amount of beans in the process and allows for quick frequent changes as I'm still trying to find a good shot!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

jonnycooper29 said:


> So whilst I'm changing the grind settings to find the right grind, you think I should not fill the hopper and only put in the amount I need? And double check the output weight too. Or am I misunderstanding? I find that if I want to adjust the grind setting I need to run it for a few seconds to purge the grinder of the old grind.


Yes but you can use the hopper and set the timer to try and get what you want out or even adjust what comes out. Sounds like AndyJH has found the same thing. I've also weighed a bit too much in and then razored it off. I haven't had any problems using the razor. One poster has. I do that because the level for a given weight will change as the grind changes so if I have no idea what grind will be needed it saves time. When I have what I want I weigh what has been left in the basket. I might then try a few shots varying that weight. At the weights I use that would only be by small fractions of a gram.

Of late I have been weighing all of my shots in. The Sage grinders seem to be rather good at this. Once settled often what went in is what comes out. Errors +/- 0.1g except when the grinder setting is changed. Then it can be 0.3g - highest I have seen. Next shot and it will usually go back to +/- 0.1g. This was on shots in the 12 - 13g range. I have a basket that takes that amount on the BE. I had to modify it to get it to fit. This is the set up I use for this









The can I use for the grinds is the grinds chamber of a Hunts hand grinder. Best use for it. I hate hand grinding. One reason for working this way might be - one bean that I use a lot starts off with the grind timer knob at about 2-30 on a BE. Over a weak with 3 to 5 shots a day the time will need extending frequently to maintain the dose. It'll finish up at about 6 o'clock. There after it would need tiny twitches either way. Maybe once or twice a week.







Not all beans are like this but when the timer is used on any grinder it will pay to check what's coming out - maybe daily. A number of people weigh in all of the time on various grinders. My Mazzer is set up for that at the moment. It needs a rubber lens hood and a brush. Weigh bean in, run grinder until it's empty, while the grinder is running cover the lens hood and press down firmly - puff of air to blow any grinds left out. Stop the grinder and brush any out that's trapped in the outlet from the grind chamber. I've added a weight over the beans as well. It stops them bouncing about. So I have to remove that and brush any that traps in and then run the grinder again, the puff. Weighing in on a Sage is a lot easier.

Weighing in is just another method of using a grinder really. I generally use my SGP for beans I want to try so weigh in on it. The BE would be set up for what I usually drink. The BE has a built in Sage grinder. I am near concluding that it would be best to weigh in on that as well but have recently switched machine.

My post on shot time wasn't too clear. Can't put any numbers on this but some one might find that a 10% change in shot time didn't alter taste. Some one might find that Sage's 35 sec was ideal. If for some reason the machine started to do 25 sec shots I am pretty sure the taste would change. For many people the time is fixed so output will vary. Some weigh out as well so if any differences time will change. Espresso machines aren't super precision devices in this respect. My personal view is that the important aspect when a bean has been tuned to suite some ones taste is the amount of coffee used for the shot. That needs maintaining pretty closely. The other variations will then be acceptable.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Espresso machines aren't super precision devices in this respect.


What does this mean? What is adequate precision vs super precision?



ajohn said:


> My personal view is that the important aspect when a bean has been tuned to suite some ones taste is the amount of coffee used for the shot. That needs maintaining pretty closely. The other variations will then be acceptable.
> 
> John
> 
> -


If you maintain the dose weight, then vary everything else, your variation won't be much better than if you varied dose somewhat. You can't measure the length of a piece of string just by looking at one end of it. This might conflict with your personal view, but reality has a way of not acknowledging personal views.


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