# Terranova 83 hybrid and other grinders



## Terranova

Split from " what's your work set up "



Scotford said:


> Where are you?


Near Cologne Germany. We also designed our own 83 hybrid grinder for the workshop without making a big deal out of it... like showing a pic of a screw and 3 month later showing another screw or so. Isn´t it a real beauty ? lol


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## jeebsy

Miaow..........


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## coffeechap

Terranova said:


> Near Cologne Germany. We also designed our own 83 hybrid grinder for the workshop without making a big deal out of it... like showing a pic of a screw and 3 month later showing another screw or so. Isn´t it a real beauty ? lol


Ah but the said grinder is a reality though!


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## Terranova

The said grinder ? I was more talking in general about people getting paranoid that their ideas are getting stolen before there is any proof that the ideas work at all.


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## coffeechap

There is all kind of cloak and dagger stuff in design though, surely you know better than most


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## Scotford

That is a pretty looking grinder. If I'm ever near Cologne I'll look you up.


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## coffeechap

Terranova said:


> Near Cologne Germany. We also designed our own 83 hybrid grinder for the workshop without making a big deal out of it... like showing a pic of a screw and 3 month later showing another screw or so. Isn´t it a real beauty ? lol


Is it my imagination or does this look like a big versalab?


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## Terranova

I would say that just the principle is the same, so like a Mazzer vs Quamar or so.. burr set geometry is like the one invented by DRM copied by Versalab just with a 83 Robur and a 83 Mazzer Royal / Stark © in this case














[


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## coffeechap

Ah so it is a big "terra nova" versalab then, surprised you haven't developed your own burr set given the debates over mazzer quality?


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## coffeechap

I assume this will be going into production, what will the price be?


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## Neill

garydyke1 said:


> A customers, but we need to unit test it , considering its the very first


Of course, such a tiring task though


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## coffeechap

Terranova said:


> We also designed our own 83 hybrid grinder for the workshop without making a big deal out of it.]


Did you design this from scratch or " follow the principles of versalab "


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## Terranova

coffeechap said:


> Ah so it is a big "terra nova" versalab then, surprised you haven't developed your own burr set given the debates over mazzer quality?


It is actually an own developed burr set, the 83 Robur is modified on the flat grinding bench and the inner conical was a one off production of our own. The 83 Royal / Stark was unchanged.

With "the same burr set geometry" I meant the hybrid design which works independently of any pressure from above.

I was stupid enough to believe that "the bigger the better" is true, so at the end it is a waste of money to implement these burrs compared to a more compact size.

A production of 3 grinders of this kind would make each cost ~ 10.000€ depending to the materials (stainless, Titanium) coatings and other surface treatments till open end.


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## Mrboots2u

10000 Euros gulp

That's only £7800

Group buy anyone


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## coffeechap

Ah so bigger is not better then?


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## coffeechap

I will stick to a mignon then


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## coffeechap

Bugger I could have saved a tonne of money!


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## Mrboots2u

By group buy I mean we all group together to buy one and share it over the course of the year


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## coffeechap

I hope the zr71 is significantly cheaper


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## Mrboots2u

For my work set up I'll stick to the sowden and hausgrind....


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## ronsil

Terranova said:


> A production of 3 grinders of this kind would make each cost ~ 10.000€ depending to the materials (stainless, Titanium) coatings and other surface treatments till open end.


So that is £7800 for three? - yes?


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## coffeechap

I think it is each Ron, still cheaper than a slayer


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## Mrboots2u

ronsil said:


> So that is £7800 for three? - yes?


Each Ron

Each.....


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## ronsil

ronsil said:


> So that is £7800 for three? - yes?


Just saw the word EACH??


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## coffeechap

Instead of this and a slayer I will get an l1 ek43 and a used porsche 911


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## Terranova

coffeechap said:


> Ah so bigger is not better then?


Let me put it this way:

A 83 hybrid is not better than a 68 hybrid set just because of the size, there are other factors which are much more important than just size.

But I think we have had this discussion somewhere else and I am really not on a mission trying to convince anyone of anything, it is just stuff which I like to find out for myself.

I am just against "the general saying" of "the bigger the better" which is true in terms of built quality but not because of burr size.


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## Mrboots2u

ronsil said:


> Just saw the word EACH??


Where's bondy....

He will have one


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## coffeechap

Surely a bigger burr set grinds the beans for longer and over a much more gradual process?


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## coffeechap

The r120 is certainly better than a mignon and a mazzer royal


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## coffeechap

Perhaps I should try mounting a set of sj burrs to my royal


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## Terranova

coffeechap said:


> Instead of this and a slayer I will get an l1 ek43 and a used porsche 911


Thats ok and instead of your L1 and the EK43 some million people would prefere to buy a Bialetti and a used Golf.


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## Mrboots2u

Balotelli isn't as good as he used to be though....


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## coffeechap

Coffee wouldn't be as nice though, but pretty sure my l1 ek43 combo will not be far off the slayer terranova combo and my porsche will eat up the golf


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## Terranova

coffeechap said:


> my porsche will eat up the golf


Buying a used Porsche 911 is not such a big deal than to run it.


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## coffeechap

Well I though that clearly money was no object!


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## coffeechap

I do quite like golfs as well, could probably squeeze a golf into my equation as a run around


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## coffeechap

Make it a diesel and I can just use the Porsche for fun and still enjoy amazing coffee oh and still be able to get to work!


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## Terranova

Why so much enviousness ?

I would find it very cool if you would build your own coffee machine or so spending a 1000 hours, just to make it perfect for yourself. (for your workshop)

I am not offering a grinder, you just asked how much it will cost.

Then your ironic statements in post 126 , 127 ,140 . (regarding burr size) "I will stick to a mignon then" "Bugger I could have saved a tonne of money" "Perhaps I should try mounting a set of sj burrs to my royal".

I am not sure if you did not understand what I wrote / what I mean, or you are just taking the piss and no one else intervenes because of you being a "long time member".

It is not my invention that alignment plays a much bigger part than your fanatism to "burr size".

http://nordicbaristacup.com/2013/09/nbcscae-gold-cup-project-by-francisca-listov-saabye-nbc-researcher-and-randy-pope-bunn/

I know that you have had 100s of grinders, but does a car collector make you a mechanic ?

Does a F1 driver make you an engineer ?

No it doesn't.

Although I am pretty sure that you know a lot about how much retention remains in each grinder or how fast do they grind.

It is a hobby, it is a passion and each of us is having their own prioritys.

One is a car collector, the other one a trainspotter.

One likes to spend more, the other may spend less.

What will be the price of the ZR 71 ?

Do you really think to get a hand made product, which took hundreds of hours, trial and error in produced parts for the price a Robur costs, or even twice the Robur ?

The production price of 3 grinders (EACH) to reach the "break even" will be higher than your L1 + EK43 together.

Also a Gaggia CC and a Mignon can make great shots, I just think that it's much more fun to pull shots on a Slayer and a custom grinder built from scratch, if you like it or not is not important to me.

Kind regards and no hurt feelings

Frank


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## coffeechap

Frank

Please, I am not envious of you or your equipment, I also don't feel the need to to show off all of my wares on the forum.

You are right about something's, I am not an engineer nor do I have an engineering background, nor am I completely obsessed with every tiny millimeter of run out. I enjoy my coffee and feel that with the mediocre equipment that I have I can pull a half decent shot.

I never want to build a machine, although I have stripped and rebuilt many lever machines ( from an amature not really sure what I am doing perspective, clearly) I never want to build a grinder as it would consume me ( just strip rebuild existing ones and help others out at a reasonable price)

Was I taking the piss, quite frankly (if you pardon the pun) yes I was, as this is humour frank which clearly you are devoid of ( unless you are critiquing another grinder builders work or secrecy). I don't get away with it ( as you say) because I am a long time member, although that probably means I might be more understood, everyone gets away with a little piss taking and joking, because this is a forum of fairly freindly humorous people.

Would I really expect to get that hand built grinder for the cost of a robur, of course not frank nor would I spend twice the cost of a robur on one either, but then I would not spend 10k on a slayer so perhaps that makes me cheap. Could I tell the difference in the cup between a thousandth of mm or a hundredth, probably not, perhaps you are a super taster that has that ability. What will be the cost of the ZR71, who knows but I don't think Tom has any intention of selling it, it is a labour of love that has probably cost him a fortune to build, but then he is an engineer and not a collector.

Finally, I am not obsessed with bigger burrs, I merely point out that in my experience of grinders ( from my non engineer collectors perspective), bigger burred grinders grind better and produce better quality shots than smaller burred grinders. Logic which I am sometimes inclind to applying to an argument, (although only infrequently) would suggest that the greater the surface area of a burr, then the longer the bean is physically ground for between those burrs, and thus a bean is technically ground more effectively over a more gradual process with a bigger burr. I accept that some manufacturers burrs are better engineered than others and I wish that manufacturers would take more time and effort in the quality of the burrs that they use.

Keep doing the great stuff that you appear to be doing and I wish you the best of luck with your grinder ( I quite like new and innovative stuff relating to grinders), but real innovation would surely be designing a grinder from the ground up, bringing a completely new design, completely new engineering to the market?


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## Terranova

I think my understanding of humor is pretty good and the equipment I "showed off" is not mine.

The thread is called:" what you got at work".

But I am sure it is very appreciated how modest you are and "not to feel the need to show of all your wares", I find that pretty modest, on the other hand this is a coffee forum and not a Porsche forum where the spent money is reaching another league.

I was never talking about thousands of a mm nor a hundreds, this shows again that your knowledge is more limited to rebuilding lever machines and helping people (without ripping them off).

A grinder has to be (in the best case) a precision instrument, a run out in the usual range is even measurable by extraction yield, visible extraction and last not least by taste.

We have been through various particle size analysis, often it is not possible to taste the difference in the cup to me, but then again we like to understand the physics and have to guess why little changes make a difference.

If your tastebuds are not so good, you can save a lot of money of course.

At least you could immediately taste a difference between shots out of an Athena which were not close as good as out of your L1, so your taste buds cannot be too bad, we had some side by side tests between these 2 and could not do so during blind testing.

I have never mentioned dsc's grinder, nor did I criticize it without knowing it, there were many others like bostonbuzz, monolith and Danoms grinder, but I wrote that before that I am talking in general after you confronted me with that statement. So here again a little hit with your elbow.

At least I know that the shaft (ZR 71) runs close to 0,01mm, which is fantastic so who is after accuracy when it wouldn't make sense ?

Using the potential of existing grinders, which proof that they work when single dosing without any needed pressure from above makes much more sense to me than your suggestion of a "real innovation" (like you use to say it) with a complete new design, which can easily end up in a "one way".

Sometimes a little bit of self-reflection helps. (also myself)


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## coffeechap

I have indeed tasted a difference in the shots that in pulled from my Athena and an l1, perhaps this was due to the groups that are used, or the temperature stability of one versus the other, I found it harder to get consistent results from the Athena as opposed to the l1. I have tasted the difference between conicals and flat grinders and for my taste buds a conical seems much more suited to a lever, (Ek 43 excepted)

I actually admire people that are improving products, I have seen what you have achieved with the VL and my skill level and patience are not high enough to commit to that kind of precision.

You are of course right, this is a coffee forum and we have such a broad spectrum of skills, capabilities and equipment here, some of it super shiney some of it less so, but a shared common interest in all that is coffee. Some will shout and some will be quiet. Some are very experienced some just beginning, I started his thread as you said to see what people had at work.


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## dsc

This has gone off topic, so I'll just throw in a quick comment regarding costs. I get my parts cut outside UK (purely because I couldn't find anyone reasonable with enough spare time in the UK) and the going rate is 25euros per hour. Now this is not only cutting, but also setting things up, prepping material, making jigs etc. For a pretty simple part you are looking at a few hours of work, to get something precise normally more work / time is required, so you have to add a few more (sure if you have access to a full blown CNC machine you can probably do it quicker, but then again CNC machine houses normally charge an arm and a leg per hour - £60+ or so). Hours add very quickly, monies add very quickly, throw in material costs, shipping and you start to understand that this isn't a cheap hobby. Then of course you sometimes get things which don't really work, so you think of, design, cut, pay for a part which in the end doesn't do what it's suppose to, so you scrap that and modify the design, get another one designed, drawn, exported to CAD, dimensioned and cut. You buy off-the-shelf parts which sometimes work, but sometimes don't, so you throw them in the cupboard and buy new ones etc. This all costs money and loads of it, I've bought two motors previously, all with power supplies and electronics, only to swap them for something else and simply stick them in a box which sits on a shelf. That was easily £500 which I won't get back, not all of it anyway. R&D costs loads and because you only make a one-off it costs even more so there's no way to compete with the likes of Mazzer or any other mass produced grinder on the market, it's a different game and different price levels / margins.

Keep in mind the above is the machining process ONLY, the amount of hours spent in CAD or simply thinking about parts is easily measured in 100s of hours, which I don't charge anyone for! if I was to count all the hours spent on the project and add that to the final cost of the machine (which I'm not planning on selling anyway) charging say £25 an hour you'd get a price tag similar to a brand new middle class car

I guess what I'm trying to say is that even though some of the prices quoted seem mental, you do have to realise that it's more or less justified and far from a finger-in-the-air kind of quote.

T.


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## Mrboots2u

Split from what we have at work ..


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## DavecUK

Terranova said:


> I was stupid enough to believe that "the bigger the better" is true, so at the end it is a waste of money to implement these burrs compared to a more compact size.
> 
> A production of 3 grinders of this kind would make each cost ~ 10.000€ depending to the materials (stainless, Titanium) coatings and other surface treatments till open end.


That's interesting

1. what made you believe it's a waste of money to use larger, rather than more compact burrs...but I do like small grinders with big burrs?

2. So why do you think surface treatments are so important?


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## gman147

Here we again..


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## Terranova

DavecUK said:


> That's interesting
> 
> 1. what made you believe it's a waste of money to use larger, rather than more compact burrs...but I do like small grinders with big burrs?


Small grinder with big burrs ? Both sizes are in the titan range (68-83)

We have built this grinder for us and I don't care when people say "big burrs are better".

Anyway I don't want to start a never ending discussion where I feel like Don Quixote fighting against windmills against the "myth" bigger is better.

There is no personal, financial interest behind it at all, in particular when I am "criticizing" my own product, saying "a more compact size would have been easier and cheaper with the same result in the cup".

The funnels for a 83 hybrid burr set are massive, just the material costs are a killer, so why should I make the grinder even more expensive when there is no advantage ? I did make it bigger BTW which was a mistake.

Just because of a "myth" without any proof in science ? So I prefer to follow my own science without trying to convince people of the other way around and I am also ok with it if people will develop a 200mm burr set, I am sure they can sell it to some folks.

In side by side comparism there was no evidence for "bigger is better" by TDS, particle size distribution (laser difractometry by Sympatec) and last not least by taste.

Alignment / parallelism plays the biggest part.

If you compare a 55 set with a 83 it might be possible to see a difference, but between 68 hybrid and 83 hybrid there was none !



DavecUK said:


> 2. So why do you think surface treatments are so important?


Where did I ever say that ?

Please show me a quote in any forum where I said so.

If you order a car, then you chose a color don't you ?

Aluminium will oxydize when touching it, some people go for chrome, or Nickel, others go for a powder coating, copper plating or brass, DLC is also an option which is all a matter of taste and wallet but it has no technical background exepted a polished surface INSIDE is less prone to retention.

There are also coatings which will reduce retention, but this has nothing to do with my previous quoted statement about surface treatments.

Also materials make a difference in costs, Aluminum is the cheapest, if you go for stainless it will triple the price and titanium is 20 times more expencive than stainless.

The tools needed to work on Titanium grade 5 are again 20 times more expensive than those for steel, so if you are a russian oligarch, you could even go for it, but then I want half the price in advance 

I hope this answers your questions.


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## DavecUK

Sounding a little defensive there Terranova, I was just trying to understand your comments a little better. Your answers have not really made me understand anything better...so as they would say in Dragons Den..."I'm out"


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## Terranova

DavecUK said:


> Sounding a little defensive there Terranova, I was just trying to understand your comments a little better.


I am sorry about that, I just thought it will start the "bigger is better" discussion again.

Please accept my apology and ignore anything which sounded rude.


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## Mrboots2u

DavecUK said:


> Sounding a little defensive there Terranova, I was just trying to understand your comments a little better. Your answers have not really made me understand anything better...so as they would say in Dragons Den..."I'm out"


Its a detailed response least we forget in a language that isn't the OP mother tongue .

I struggle to make sense when I post in English , I dread to think how I would cope with German ...

People are often passionate about their own projects ( including yourself DaveC ) , plus , posts on the forum ( mine included more often than not ) can often be construed in a different manner to how the poster intended them to be , you can't read tone , intonation and all the things a real conversation has...

As always lots of info to take in and some interesting points raised


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## DavecUK

Mrboots2u said:


> I struggle to make sense when I post in English , I dread to think how I would cope with German ...


I don't think I would have any problems at all with you posting in German....so don't you worry about it.


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## Mrboots2u

DavecUK said:


> I don't think I would have any problems at all with you posting in German....so don't you worry about it.


That's nice to know Davec thanks..


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## Drewster

DavecUK said:


> I don't think I would have any problems at all with you posting in German....so don't you worry about it.


Do you mean Bootsies posts would be every bit as clear, erudite and intelligent in German?


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## Mrboots2u

Drewster said:


> Do you mean Bootsies posts would be every bit as clear, erudite and intelligent in German?


Ich vermute, er meint, sie wäre leichter zu ignorieren in Deutsch


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## DavecUK

Drewster said:


> Do you mean Bootsies posts would be every bit as clear, erudite and intelligent in German?


Well that's one way of looking at it, I guess...


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## Terranova

BTW. The shaft is running inside 2 SKF bearings, it is maximum stiff and there is no difference when running under load or without, even when grinding raw rice.


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## DavecUK

Terranova said:


> BTW. The shaft is running inside 2 SKF bearings, it is maximum stiff and there is no difference when running under load or without, even when grinding raw rice.


I think testing tolerances under load, is one of the most important things to do....but no doubt you saw my post on home Barista.


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## Drewster

Mrboots2u said:


> Ich vermute, er meint, sie wäre leichter zu ignorieren in Deutsch


Niemand würde sogar ignorieren Sie in Englisch Deutsch, Griechisch, Chinesisch, Serbokroatisch oder Japanisch träumen


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## MWJB

Drewster said:


> Niemand würde sogar ignorieren Sie in Englisch Deutsch, Griechisch, Chinesisch, Serbokroatisch oder Japanisch träumen


It's all Greek to me...


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## The Systemic Kid

Not, sure it's Greek, Mark but could be wrong

Think Drewster and Boots are debating tolerance under load but could be wrong about that too.


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## MWJB




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## Drewster

The Systemic Kid said:


> Not, sure it's Greek, Mark but could be wrong
> 
> Think Drewster and Boots are debating tolerance under load but could be wrong about that too.


Bootsie θα μπορούσε να είναι, αλλά Drewster είμαι βέβαιος ότι δεν ήταν


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## Terranova

This is how it looks in the kitchen on a rusty pipe, the other "coffee corner" is the one of a mate.


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## The Systemic Kid

Great pictures, Frank. What's the wall mounted grinder in the last one - work in progress?


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## glevum

Amazing equipment Frank


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## charris

Frank,

In the last picture with the kdw machine, arent the two grinders modifies VLs?


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## Terranova

charris said:


> Frank,
> 
> In the last picture with the kdw machine, arent the two grinders modifies VLs?


Yes, but I don't know what that wall grinder is, there are some more pictures at KvdW FB page.


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## Southpaw

How big is the very big looking speaker in the second picture! That's quite a system for the kitchen


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## hotmetal

Mrboots2u said:


> Ich vermute, er meint, sie wäre leichter zu ignorieren in Deutsch


Herr Stiefel zu dir! Müssen wir nun ein eigenes Thread für Deutsch-sprechenden Kaffee-Liebhaber eröffnen? Heißes Metall


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## Drewster

hotmetal said:


> Herr Stiefel zu dir! Müssen wir nun ein eigenes Thread für Deutsch-sprechenden Kaffee-Liebhaber eröffnen? Heißes Metall


Kann ich mich in der Deutsch Thread? Obwohl, ehrlich zu sein, ich kann nicht wirklich sprechen Deutsch, aber ich weiß wie ein Tropfen Kaffee


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## hotmetal

Ja sicher Drewster, du darfst auch Mitglied werden! *Wenn es so ein Thread eigentlich gäbe.


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## Terranova

charris said:


> Frank,
> 
> In the last picture with the kdw machine, arent the two grinders modifies VLs?


Here they are... lets blitz Fritz









Titanium funnel, shaft, burr mount. Plated transmission and some DLC (diamond like carbon) applications.


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## The Systemic Kid

They look stunning as well as functional.


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## Xpenno

Agreed, they look absolutely mint!


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## Terranova

Here some more of the messed up kitchen and the CNC milled plates, which are still waiting that I got some time left.



































The Royal / Stark burrs are 2 times quicker than the Major (A single phase) TDS , blonding, taste absolutely equal. The thread inside the middle plate will be made out of a bronze flange because of material pairing to make them last, funnels will be made out of Titanium Grade 5, this may take several month.


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## hotmetal

Those plates remind me of the arm board on a TW-Acustic Raven (expensive!) vinyl turntable. Serious engineering there!


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