# Nordic Barista Cup - WFT is going on up there?



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I'm very keen to know what's going on at the NBC after reading tweets by David Walsh of Marco that said:

"The Nordic Barista Cup says yes to Kopi Luwak"

and

"Nespresso and Kopi Luwak in one day. The Sumatran coffees are also free flowing. This, my friends, is the Nordic Barista Cup."

I had thought that the Nordic baristas generally had a good reputation, but if it's true that Kopi Luwak has been allowed in a high profile competition then shame on everyone involved, from organisers to judges to all entrants. If I had been involved and learned of this I would have pulled out. It's a f*****g disgrace to use beans associated with a process that encourages the lifelong caging of wild animals to satisfy the curiosity of under-informed coffee drinkers. Imagine the implications if it was used by a prize winner.

I only hope that David's tweets are some sort of joke intended to prompt a public response, and thereby promote the event. It would be a cheap trick, but even that would be better than the tweets being true.

Anyone know more?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

"Incoming. Heads down lads".

Mates are mates, let's not have principles eh? Self promotion and social media spin doctoring come first. Let's only take the high moral ground when it doesn't jeopardise our rankings in the clique.

I thought this industry was different. I'm naive.

But hey, happy to admit if I'm wrong. The silence is deafening.


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## CoffeeMagic (Aug 7, 2011)

Mike, I can understand your passion for this subject which is plainly obvious from your initial post. The silence on my part stems from ignorance as I suspect is the case with some others. Generally when I come across something that is not even on my radar - kopi luwak, wagyu beef, etc. - I don't even go there. What's the point? Consequently, if I felt morally obligated to become involved in every bad thing that goes on in this world I would have no time left to live my own life. I have my own gripes which are a lot closer to home and more "in your face" than coffee.

My own view is that more positive action is achieved by stealth than full frontal confrontation (this post aside). I apologise if this is not the kind of debate you were looking for.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Thanks Ron.

I took a blunderbus approach with my post, which was wrong as I'm not having a go at everyone. My grievance is with those who could shed some light on what went on with kopi luwak up at the NBC but would rather ignore it.

As an industry so much effort is going into protection and promotion of the farmers, which shows the positive power of organised action. Meanwhile animals continue to be abused and nothing is done. Why doesn't James Hoffman do a presentation about that? He has the kudos to make a difference.

And hey, it could be that kopi luwak was used at the NBC to show how stupid a product it is. I don't know. I'd just like a little more info


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## crispy (Jun 6, 2011)

Wouldn't worry about your initial post, shows your passion for the industry and ethics related to... I assume post response is due to the lack of information available...

In terms of media hype, suppose it depends on how the industry / champs is funded and it's aims... is it to promote good coffee (yay) or is it to aid growth regardless of measures taken (boo)... I guess all you can do is guide people and stand by your principles, educating those who are interested as to why you take that stand...

If people are naive enough to think Nespresso is acceptable at the NBC then more the fool them, most informed individuals will see straight through it...


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

I've completely missed the NBC coverage this year due to other commitments, and have even been unusually quiet on Twitter also

Will need to read the timeline before replying as this is a rather complex matter, and boundaries are often pushed

It's not inconceivable than when brewed well the Kopi Luwak might taste okay

There are wild and caged civet cats, and also some unscrupulous dealers and trade practices surrounding this end of the market (which might be referred to as novelty rather than speciality)

Keep an eye out for blog posts/summaries of the event which should build a greater picture of what happened


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## Fran (Dec 27, 2010)

I had heard of 'Weasel coffee' before, but I didn't know that it was known as Kopi Luwak, or involved maltreatment of animals. I guess I should have known better than to assume that people followed these weasels around, waiting for them to vom!

There's no room in high-end coffee for beans created using maltreated animals. It's as simple as that.


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

I can't really shed any light on what has going on, but i only had a vague idea of what kopi luwak was and as a result has lead me to some research and reading. At the very least this post has made another person aware of what is going on..... quite disgusted.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

I've often wondered what Jack Nicholson's character's obsession with KL in 'The Bucket List' did for sales?


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## crispy (Jun 6, 2011)

No vomiting Fran, it's the other end..


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

vintagecigarman said:


> I've often wondered what Jack Nicholson's character's obsession with KL in 'The Bucket List' did for sales?


Exactly, vintage. Anything that shows civet coffee (kopi luwak) in a positive light directly contributes to more westerners thinking "hmmm, let's try that."... which in turn directly results in more animals being put in small cages for the rest of their lives. Industry members who turn the other cheek are, by their silence, advocating kopi luwak.

The main reason I'm so vocal about this is that I've seen it with my own eyes on more than one occasion whilst visiting coffee plantations in Indonesia. Actually seeing it had a profound effect on me. It's upsetting to see. And I've been told point blank by an indonesian coffee farmer that there's absolutely no way to collect enough civet-poop-beans to make it commercially viable. I've been guided around the forest collecting civet poo beans myself, and satisfied myself that his comments are true. Shelves of Kopi Luwak coffee bags that are available for sale are either (a) the result of the mass catching and caging of civets to create kopi luwak production lines, or (b) are not from civets at all and are therefore just vastly overpriced beans.

In my view industry members need to send a clear message. Kopi Luwak is not acceptable. Producing it. Selling it. Using it in competitions. Nothing. *The best way to end the supply is to remove the demand.* We can each help this happen by being more vocal when we come across people encouraging civet coffee's use.

This pic is one I took. These poor buggers used to roam free in the forest, but thanks to people being curious about civet coffee, they're now going to spend their lives in these tiny cages.

  

This picture is from an article in The New York Times.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Mike: At least your post has had one positive outcome. I may have been tempted to try KL at some stage - now I definitely won't.

And I'll spread the word whenever it is mentioned.


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## Combercoffee (Feb 12, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> or (b) are not from civets at all and are therefore just vastly overpriced beans.


I'd say there is a lot more of this than people who buy this stuff like to think. I used to work with a guy who said these were the only coffee beans he would buy.

I must add that he would also drink instant "coffee" whilst at work - which lead me to question his real love for coffee.


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## Pjordan (Feb 6, 2011)

Wow, never even considered this, thanks for opening my eyes, won't ever be featured here now!


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## carbonkid85 (Jan 19, 2011)

KL was available to buy at London Coffee Festival too. In fact, it was the subject of a tasting/presentation from a London-based coffee merchant with absolutely no mention of any kind of animal rights issues...


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

carbonkid85 said:


> KL was available to buy at London Coffee Festival too. In fact, it was the subject of a tasting/presentation from a London-based coffee merchant with absolutely no mention of any kind of animal rights issues...


It wouldn't exactly be a winning marketing strategy, would it? "Buy our Kopi Luwak... we condone animal cruelty so you can drink a completely average coffee". I'd be interested in knowing which merchant it was if you'd be happy to PM me. It would be good to get their take on why they sold it and whether they knew about what happens to the civets involved. It's quite possible they just never took the time to find out. I'm not interested in a name-and-shame approach though, or in reading the riot act to them (although you might not guess that from my first post!). Changing attitudes is about working with people rather than alienating them. When I talk about being vocally against kopi luwak, I think we should simply show people the truth and hopefully they will make the right choice on their own.

Of course, there will always be those who only see the £££ and don't care about the ethics.

Anyway... I still haven't been able to shed any light on what happened at the NBC with kopi luwak. Maybe I'll send an email to the organisers gently asking for some clarification.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

To be fair and avoid rumour I've sent this email to Björg Brend, one of the organisers of the NBC 2011.



> Hi Björg,
> 
> I hope you can help me. I've been following with great interest the events at the 2011 NBC. It seems to have been a huge success, and I'd love to have been there. The presentations on vimeo are a very good idea and have prompted interesting debates on twitter and coffee forums.
> 
> ...


Makes me feel a bit like Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall writing to the EU fisheries minister


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## Danielowenuk (Aug 12, 2011)

Newbie here so excuse my ignorance.

We have coffee which we dont want to be without, sometimes it's produced in ways we don't approve of, be it human or animal, surely we shouldn't be just stopping using it but promoting the ethical production of it.

How is KL any different?

(sorry for the slightly devils advocate nature)


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Please explain further. How could your suggestion be achieved?

Welcome to the forum too


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## Danielowenuk (Aug 12, 2011)

I suppose by maybe putting it under the fair trade banner, aren't they responsible for ethical production? Or are they only relating to finance?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I'm afraid that in rural parts of South East Asia things like FairTrade or other banners mean absolutely nothing. People are poor, and there is simply no concept of animal cruelty, so they do whatever they can to make money. If a rich westerner (which we all are) is prepared to pay a month's wages for a bag of coffee then the bloke next door is going to head into the forest (which incidentally is his back garden) and set a civet trap.

Similarly with large scale Kopi Luwak producers, it generates a lot of money for the Indonesian economy. Anything that aims to reduce sales of KL would not be actively adopted by the authorities, despite the existence of trade banners.

I'm afraid that there's no escape from the fact that coffee buyers need to exercise their conscience. If you buy it, you put an animal in a cage.


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## marbeaux (Oct 2, 2010)

And Vietnam of course is also a producer of Civet beans.

Personally I'll stick with beans that are first hand!


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## carbonkid85 (Jan 19, 2011)

Just as an addition to my last post about London Coffee Festival, according to the merchant's website, the company sources their civet coffee from wild animals and not caged animals.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Thanks. I'll be following up with the merchant to find out whether they buy directly from the tribes/workers who they say harvest the wild civet beans, or from a central supplier. It's important to find a reliable source of information, as website blurb is not credible. There's nothing stopping a merchant putting false marketing info on their website if they can claim "well that's what my supplier told me". What I've seen with my own eyes differs from what their website claims.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Sod Kopi Luwak. It's a gimmick and, what's worse, it's a gimmick that exploits animals.

I would suggest a boycott of any coffee festivals that feature it.


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## CoffeeMagic (Aug 7, 2011)

I'm sorry if this doesn't bode with the tree-hugging majority, but I would like to know if there are cold hard facts regarding the percentage of KL on the UK market that is sourced by "unethical" practices. As much as I have no reason to doubt what has been witnessed, I would also caution treating it as a representative sample. This is exactly the same hype that we saw regarding eggs from battery chickens, etc. Do you go back to the free-range supplier to check that he was telling the truth before you buy their eggs - No!

Please don't get the wrong idea here. I don't condone animal cruelty or unethical practices, however, I do appreciate a *balanced* argument. I suspect that much of the KL for sale in UK is sourced ethically. Personally, I don't purchase the stuff as I probably wouldn't appreciate its nuances - but I tend to deal through reputable dealers and that implies that I have trust in their practices (until I discover otherwise).

Give me some cold hard *unbiased* facts and I can then make an informed decision.

Climbing down of my soapbox...


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

I think the eggs argument is on too much of a different level to compare. Most UK eggs are sourced from the UK and we are very strict on farm inspections. If a company claims eggs are free range, then they will be. However I would have doubts on whether the inspections in countries that produce KL are thorough, if they even happen at all.

I am sure there must be some suppliers that 'ethically' produce KL where the civets are 'free range' rather than caged and unlikely there are many wild as it would be unviable. I would guess the majority of imported KL is producedd from caged civets. Clearly this is my opinion. Mike has been and seen it first hand (of course I could go and see a hen battery farm and end up with the opinion all farms are like that), but, caged civets are going to be more economic for the supplier of KL and without control it is extremely likely that this is the usual way to farm KL. Without any formal control or pressure on the industry then they will mostly do what makes the most money. Clearly this isn't fact, it's my opinion, but I'd happily bet on the fact i'm right.

Anyway, I'd think most KL in this country is chemically produced anyway, commercially it's far cheaper. Proper KL is quite rare, hence the price of it.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Ron, I have a number of concerns regarding your post.

1. "Tree-hugging". This kind of pejorative term isn't helpful. Its implication is that anyone who is concerned about animal cruelty in the production of coffee is some sort of marginal, radical type whose opinion can be ignored by the rest of normal society. It doesn't do you justice.

2. It's not only the UK market that matters. This is a global product. What you should be concerned with is the proportion of total global production that is sourced from wild civets versus caged animals on production lines.

3. You liken 'battery versus free range' chickens to 'wild or caged' civets. I'm glad you brought this up.

There are a number of differences. The former is a regulated industry governed by the European Commission through formal legislative processes. To quote this document, the minimum criteria to be met by suppliers of such poultry products have been set and are monitored within the EU "for improved Animal Welfare and to avoid confusion amongst consumers and the trade." (Hmmm... I guess that would make the European Commission a bunch of tree huggers.) Buyers therefore have no need to question the legitimacy of a supplier's claim that their product is free range.

Conversely, there are no legislative regulations regarding the treatment of animals in ASEAN's coffee production industry. It's a free-for-all. Moreover, should such regulations be introduced (which would be welcome), the EU is much more capable of enforcing such regulations than ASEAN countries.

To put it simply, there was and is no "hype" (as you call it) regarding poultry battery farming. Cruelty to poultry was taking place. People realised and took action, leading to changes in legislation that helped overcome animal cruelty.

So I can agree that there are similarities with the poultry scenario, in that if we can stop denying that civet cruelty is taking place then perhaps we can prevent it.

4. I think it's fair to want proof that it takes place. I wish I had it, but clearly I'm just one person. And all the other anecdotal evidence I've found (photos, articles, etc) come from what other individuals have seen, rather than from a credible formal research project into Kopi Luwak.

(However, I'd expect The New York Times to be a credible publication, and their article says



> In Liwa, a small town in southwestern Sumatra, more than 30 families were involved in civet coffee.Mega Kurniawan, 28, entered the business two years ago by setting up shop in the backyard of his family home. He had already expanded to three other locations and was now in civets full time. With a total of 102 civets, he gathered about 550 pounds of beans a month.
> 
> During the day, Mr. Kurniawan's civets slept inside their small wooden cages before growing active at dusk. At night, the animals ate from fresh plates of coffee cherries, replenished every two hours, or paced back and forth at a brisk, caffeinated clip.


But this is where you and I differ, Ron. If I have ANY doubts about the ethics involved in products I buy, I DO make a point to find out more. I DON'T dismiss the anecdotal evidence and photographs as being unrepresentative. I DON'T throw it over the wall for someone else to prove to assuage my own conscience. I'm involved in the coffee industry now, and that means I MUST take care not to support unethical practices.

5. You emboldened *unbiased*, suggesting that I have some sort of hidden agenda or something to gain from this. I'd be keen to know where you think my bias comes from. I believe I've been very clear in explaining that the only reason I'm being vocal about this is that I've witnessed Kopi Luwak being cage-farmed and been moved by the awful cruelty I saw. I have no reason to lie or embellish.

If you need any more than this photo to make an informed decison then I think it's a pity, Ron.


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## buzzbuzzbuzz (Sep 1, 2011)

Have to say that regardless of the ethics/ practices involved in the production of weasel coffee - I've got no intention of drinking coffee that's come out of an animals bum! (Though, admittedly, I've tasted coffee in the past that tasted as if it might have done...)

Unfortunately, because of the cachet associated with Kopi Luwak there will always be 1. Someone willing to buy it and 2. Someone willing to supply it (for a profit). The same thing is starting to happen with the Cave Swifts that produce the nests used in "Birds Nest Soup". And as for the ethics of the situation... Foie Gras anyone?

Buzz

ps. Thank-you to everyone who has posted in this thread so far - it's very thought provoking stuff.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I received a reply today from Björg Brend, one of the organisers of the NBC event. Rather than extract bits of her email I've pasted it all below.



> Dear Mike
> 
> Thank you for your email.
> 
> ...


I'd like to respond to Björg in due course, but would be keen to know what others think first.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Mike: If you'll forgive the pun, this reply is full of weasel words and actually says nothing much ('- your comments will be taken into consideration...).

My suspicion is that what has concerned him is that this may have now got on the animal rights activists' radar ( - not that I'm implying that description fits you) - and he has fears that it could lead to disruption of a future event. So perhaps this will be the first and last time this product appears at this event.

It seems strange that the issues surrounding KL never appeared to have dawned on him until you got in touch. And as for 'educating people' - well, words fail me. Perhaps he would find it OK for a health products show to exhibit bear bile products from an educational perspective?

Thanks for what you have done to raise awareness on this forum.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Thanks Geoff.

I completely agree with your assessment of the response from the Nordic Barista Cup representative. I'll post my reply on here soon.

Really pleased and proud that you've made a decision about this shameful aspect of the world of coffee.

I hope members continue to publicly express their objections to Kopi Luwak. Even one simple thread like this one can make a difference. The Wikipedia page for Kopi Luwak currently has a reference to this thread.

Boughtons online coffee magazine contacted me and are running a feature in their next edition.

Sprudge, another well known online coffee publication, posted this today.

http://sprudge.com/cat-and-laos-the-sands-of-time.html

It includes a link to a Facebook Group that is championing the fight against Kopi Luwak. I'm going to click Join and I hope other forum members do too.

This is not a radicalised movement. It's an embarrasing aspect of Speciality Coffee.

Let's not turn the other cheek. Let's vote No To Kopi Luwak.


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## sicknote (Sep 5, 2011)

I have to hold my hands up.....I was drinking Kopi Luwak last year in Bali. I think it's one of those things that tourists will try perhaps once as the coffee is nothing special. I found it had a chemical taste.

The coffee farm I visited had a few animals scattered around the visitor centre in fairly sized runs rather than small cages. This was obviously for show as the ammount of Kopi Luwak for sale in the farm shop was staggering. There seemed to be tons of the coffee for sale. I can only imagine how these creatures are really kept to produce this ammount of coffee.

Asians (not all) look at animals in a different light to us and this is the biggest problem facing the civet. They have monkeys chained to trees, birds, snakes, rabbits, dogs and cats crammed into the smallest of cages. It's purely seen as putting food on the table and perhaps sometimes we are to quick to judge. Heart breaking for me though.

Off topic I know but for some reason we have accepted that it's ok as it is in Asia to keep hundreds of fish in small tanks in shopping centres and spas where we go and stick our feet in. How this is allowed in this country is beyond me.

Mike I don't know how you found the coffee overall in Bali and the rest of Indonesia, but for me 90% of the time it was shocking.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Brewed-coffee-wise, I found two kinds of Bali Coffee. The stuff you get in the tourist areas of the South, which is awful, and the fresh stuff in the rural North, which was good. But sugar helped. It's very much like Turkish, I found. But then I don't mind a ton of sludge in the cup.

Espresso was a different ball game. Very hard to find anything decent. In Ubud, Cafe Luna gets good reviews but Tropical restaurant had the best by far... and latte art, amazingly. Definitely an Ozzie behind that place, I'd say.


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## ianb (Jul 3, 2008)

It is the front page lead in Boughton's Coffee House, is a news story on the Caffe Culture portal, and is on our newsfeed which is read by news organisations around the country. We think we're all obliged to Mike for highlighting this subject... and we're horrified by it, too.

-Ian B

Coffee House magazine.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Ian's article is now available to read from one of the following links. It includes input from Steve Leighton from Has Bean, and Stephen Hurst, MD of Mercanta. Fantastic to know this article is being read by so many people in the coffee trade. It all helps promote more transparency. Great stuff, Ian.

http://boughtonscoffeehouse.wordpress.com/

http://www.caffeculture.com/2011/09/15/ethical-price-world%E2%80%99s-expensive-coffee/


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## ianb (Jul 3, 2008)

Thank you. Of course, not everyone agrees.

This from a roaster in London:

Ian only in the UK can we be concerned about some cats on the other side of the world who are well fed, bred in captivity and kept in a cage away from any predators. People with more money than sense buy this coffee giving the farmers a decent living, if they want to drink coffee fermented in shit good luck to them. I have seen elderly disabled women working in torrential rain on the side of a mountain where if you slip you die trying to earn enough to contribute to the family income they only get paid for what they pick.

Everybody I speak to at the moment is complaining about the price of coffee its gone up 2 pence a cup, I only whish the people who did the marketing for Kopi Luwak would work for the rest of the coffee market then everybody would be well fed and safe just like the cats.

But he is a very opinionated roaster... aren't they all?!!

-Ian B


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## CoffeeMagic (Aug 7, 2011)

ianb said:


> But he is a very opinionated roaster... aren't they all?!!


Not at all!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Until there's an organised (and perhaps funded) movement to create greater transparency in the sourcing of civet coffee I think perhaps the best we can do is provide enough info for customers to make an informed choice. There will always be people with opposing views, but I hope that most people would vote NO once they learn of the animal cruelty involved in Kopi Luwak. I mean, even that roaster isn't disputing the cruel practise... he is just disputing whether it's worth caring about. Most people care more than he does.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

A follow up on the ongoing sick abuse of civets in the name of coffee curiosity...

The Philippine's largest exporter of civet coffee recently said "I feel bad about it because we sort of opened a Pandora's box wherein people think it's all about money." She estimated that 80 percent of civet coffee in the Philippines was now produced using caged animals, and said there were similar problems in Indonesia.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/-depth/10/30/11/ph-farmers-cash-civet-coffee-dung

Thanks to Ian of Boughton's Coffee House News for reporting this.

http://www.coffee-house.org.uk/


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Some big names in the world of coffee are now on board with putting an end to Kopi Luwak, the animal cruelty it encourages, and the low grade of coffee that it represents. There have been some fantastic recent developments in the fight against this rotten product, and I just wanted to share some of them to help continue raising awareness and help true coffee lovers avoid being suckered into trying this terrible concept.

Tim Wendelboe (former World Barista Champion) recently said "*Kopi luwak is not bullshit. It is actually SHIT! Lets not ever mention it again.*"

He is right. Don't forget, this coffee comes out of the arse of a civet, covered in faeces and harmful bacteria. When he says let's not mention it again, I think he is saying let's stop promoting this product through discussions regarding taste. He's right. It's not about taste. It's about animal cruelty. But *we MUST talk about it*, because members of the coffee industry have been quiet about it for too long. Being open about the truth of this product, cutting through the falsehoods of those who produce and sell it, is essential to reducing the factory farming of wild civets that is on the increase.

And so, it was wonderful to see the Specialty Coffee Association of America (SCAA) pin their flag to the mast when they published THIS ARICLE by a member of their staff, Lily Kubota. To quote the article:



> There seems to be a market for products that claim rarity or superiority in quality. Does that in and of itself make it special? We're going to go out on a limb here and say no.... This industry has worked too hard to risk entering less defendable realms...We want this one to go away.


"Dean & DeLuca" is a household name in the USA, and their strapline is "purveyors of fine foods, wine and kitchenware". Recently they begain selling Kopi Luwak, jumping on the bandwagon of selling a very expensive coffee with extraordinarily high profit margins, without considering the ethics of the product. *The coffee industry and the public responded with revulsion*. ..

http://www.Sprudge.com ran an editorial entitled Say No To Kopi Luwak, to provide readers with the truth. In addition to details of the animal cruelty involved, the piece included the following:



> our cupping notes included the words "moldy" and "musty"


and a quote from an expert cupper:



> One of four cups was moldy and another single cup showed phenol. I tasted band-aids, iodine, and oyster.


Andrew Hetzel wrote an article entitled Kopi Luwak: curiosity kills the civet cat which included the following link to Dean & Delucas customer feedback page:



> If you find any of the information above enlightening or disturbing, I urge you to never buy Kopi Luwak and be sure to let retailers like Dean & DeLuca know why.


*I'm pleased to say that only a few days later Dean & DeLuca removed Kopi Luwak from their catalogue of products.*

This is very good news, and we should learn from this experience. As I've said previously, we need to be verbal in our opposition to this product. Telling coffee suppliers that you will not buy any of their products as long as they continue to stock Kopi Luwak sends a strong message.

*We have to be clear about this... if you sell Kopi Luwak... if you encourage animal cruelty and bad tasting coffee... we will not support your business.*

*
*

Tom Owen who co-owns www.sweetmarias.com (one of the world's best resources for home roasting), set up a facebook page called No To Kopi Luwak. Join it. Spread the word. This is not how we want coffee to be represented and it is not acceptable.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Great post Mike.

I wonder if there is any mileage in setting up a watch list as a sticky on this forum. Members could report suppliers who are selling/promoting KL and the rest of us could choose to boycott them.

Sent via Tapatalk


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

That could be a great idea if it were done in a way that gave the supplier an opportunity to be removed from the list by removing animal coffee from their offering. It would allow both the supplier and the consumer to have a choice.

If forum members would add supplier details to the list, I would be happy to contact them to discuss their marketing of kopi luwak and inform them of the watch list.

Glenn, could you please advise if this would be ok and if so I can add a thread for stickying.


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## ChrisP (Jun 19, 2011)

Interesting read. Didn't realised how it was actually produced on a commercial level. Most people i've come accross that drink this coffee wouldn't know a good coffee if it hit them in the face! Lovely creatures too. Such a shame to see them in cages.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Yes, happy for a separate thread to be created as a sticky.

There needs to be a balanced debate about this and we would need to ensure there is awareness - not a blacklist - of suppliers, or any defamatory statements towards them on this public forum


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## CoffeeMagic (Aug 7, 2011)

Glenn said:


> ...
> 
> There needs to be a balanced debate about this and we would need to ensure there is awareness - not a blacklist - of suppliers, or any defamatory statements towards them on this public forum


I, for one, would be sorry to see any business victimised because of their right to provide a service even though they may have taken the time and trouble to ensure traceability to a legitimate source.

In the same way, I would not want to see any forum members fall foul of the laws with regard to defamation or incitement.

One sticky I will be steering well clear of...


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

My original suggestion was for a watch list, rather than a blacklist. I would like to be aware of who is selling these beans so that I can avoid using them. This isn't victimisation - it's just being aware of the company ethics and making an informed decision based on this.

Sent via Tapatalk


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Ok, I'll start a new thread. It will simply list the details of suppliers involved in the distribution of kopi luwak. Readers can see the list as either a way to know who they can buy it from if they so desire, or alternatively who to decline to purchase from. That is, I believe, a balanced approach and should not offend anyone.


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## WobblyGoblin (Oct 18, 2011)

Hmmm... Years ago, maybe 5, I was bought some KL coffee as a present. It used to show up every so often as a novelty item (buy cat-poo coffee!) Until just now I was completely unaware of any ethical issues with the coffee. I have been sceptical of the sourcing and labelling as I just couldn't see how they could supply so much from picking up droppings in the jungle. However, I presumed the product simply lied about the origins similar to how "monkey-picked tea" doesn't involve any monkeys.

After tasting it I had already decided I wouldn't buy it myself. I wasn't sure if it was me not getting the best out of the beans, lack of freshness, or just that they taste bad, but I could get a much nicer cup from... ...well just about anything.

Knowing what I do now, I will avoid a bit harder. I'll also let people know how it may encourage mistreatment of animals so they can also make an informed decision too.

btw: the Metro had an article the other day about it (Most expensive cup of coffee in the world... made from cat poo!). No mention of the animal cruelty...


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Thanks for this. Yes, Kopi luwak is a perfect 'puff piece' for journalists looking for an easy filler that (they believe) doesn't demand much research to write... so they rarely go beyond the "ha ha, poo, expensive, one man says it tastes good" cliche. There needs to be some creative thinking to come up with a way to get the message out there once and for all, to journalists and the public, to counteract the pro-kopi luwak advertising. (BTW there are some journalists who are already on board... Thanks again Ian at http://www.coffee-house.org.uk for helping provide transparency regarding kopi luwak)

Personally I'd love to just sit back and have an easy life ... I'm not by nature a campaigner or a reactionary person... but this disgraceful product makes me get out of my chair and do something about it. So I'm going to try to take this to another level if I have the time inbetween setting up a new business, building a new home, training for the UKBC, etc etc. The investigation into kopi luwak and communication of the findings needs to become organised. Watch this space


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