# The right machine for me



## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Hi All,

An upgrade is a long time coming in my books and I wanted to get a little advice before I make my decision. I've only ever had a Gaggia Classic.....which I blew up a few months ago and I'm now using my aeropress and mignon on a daily basis. It's a relatively nice and simple set up but it's defo time to get something better.

So I was looking around and found that Andy was doing a Brewtus for £1k delivered. Having taken some advice and having a read around, it seems to tick all the right boxes..... DB, PID, e61 group, rave reviews etc...

Then I was reading back through the sales threads and saw that I could get something like a second hand Giotto with loads of extras for a couple of hundred less. So now I find myself going back and forth in my mind wondering which decision to take.... And still can't decide.

and to make matters worse, I've now had another thought. Do I need to buy something this good to suit my needs? In reality I have a coffee in the morning before work and one when I get home. With a new machine, I might have another in the evening but that's it. No one else in my house drinks coffee so a dual boiler might be an overkill.

I don't mind spending the money but I don't know whether I'm going over the top for a nice cup of coffee. If you were in my position, what would you do? Oh, and if it makes it easier to suggest alternatives, I like the look of the Expobar, Fracino Heavenly and Cherub, Rocket machines....not many others tbh.

any advice much appreciated.

thanks


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I think the Brewtus takes some beating at that price point.

I replaced mine with a Spaz S1 Vivaldi ii which is even easier to live with, but the Expo was great.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

At that price the Brewtus is a bargain.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I would recommend stumping up the extra for the rotary plumbed in model. It saves a lot of faff and noise


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

I don't know the difference if I'm being honest.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

vibe pump is cheap and noisy....rotary is better quality and quieter. You can only have it on plumbed in model. Plumbed in means you connect the machine to a water supply (actually very easy to do with minor skillz needed) rather than having a tank to fill.

It is particularly worth it on the Brewtus as it has no low-water alarm....the machine just switches off, which is actually a massive pain in the arse.

The constant feed from a water mains supply means this wont happen.


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## cappuccino crackers (Mar 12, 2014)

you sound exactly like me, one on morning and when get back from work etc. im contemplating the exact next step ill be watching this thread with interest although i have a silvia v3 and a mini


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Is it fair to say it's cheap and noisy in a machine costing £1000? that kind of statement makes me slightly uneasy but I suppose it depends on what you're used to.

I'm not sure that I would go down this route though. The reason being that I live in a really hard water area and the lime scale build up is terrible. A plumbed in version would surely suffer an early demise would it not?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I live in a soft water area but I'm sure I've seen folk fit an inline filter in place for this.

Any idea of the best options and costs for doing this? How often do you change the cartridge?

I can understand people going for the tank versions because of this. I'd have thought the noise of the grinder would be much greater than the vibe pump. Unless you have a HG ONE.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Big Tony said:


> I'm not sure that I would go down this route though. The reason being that I live in a really hard water area and the lime scale build up is terrible. A plumbed in version would surely suffer an early demise would it not?


Then you should go for a plumb in without question.

The alternative is bottled water, which becomes quite expensive as the Brewtus flushes quite a large volume of water with every shot.

A big Brita Purity 300 cartridge and head will cost about £50 on ebay if you hunt about and will last for ages.


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

You're right Clive, the Mignon is quite a noisy grinder but it doesn't bother me. The extra noise doesn't bother me in relation to the pump, but a 'cheap' and nasty pump probably would.

In line filters seem a lot of hassle when compared to a regular supply of Ashbeck!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Tony, you buy a Brita water filter, not the sort of thing that you fill a jug with, and this connects between your machine and the water supply. Makes life a doddle. All vibe pumps are noisy by comparison to a rotary pump


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Spazbarista said:


> Then you should go for a plumb in without question.
> 
> The alternative is bottled water, which becomes quite expensive as the Brewtus flushes quite a large volume of water with every shot.
> 
> A big Brita Purity 300 cartridge and head will cost about £50 on ebay if you hunt about and will last for ages.


Yep, I dare say that the Brita would be the easiest option. You've still got me slightly worried about the cheap pump comment though


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Tony, you buy a Brita water filter, not the sort of thing that you fill a jug with, and this connects between your machine and the water supply. Makes life a doddle. All vibe pumps are noisy by comparison to a rotary pump


Ah, right. I'm starting to understand what you mean now!


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Don't worry about it....loads of machines use them. Its a standard Ulka unit....it just is comparatively cheap and unsophisticated. Mine never failed. But rotary pumps are just lovely


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I think the SJ is even noisier than the Mignon with the Twacking.


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

To put the type of pump in context, the pump you have in your classic is a vibe pump and most likely the same or similar as in the Brewtus ( although may be isolated better) wheras a rotary pump is a lot quieter / smoother in operation. If the noise of the pump on your classic doesn't bother you too much you could save a fair bit of money by purchasing the tanked version ( rotary pump only fitted to the plumb in version as there is not enough room for a tank as well as the pump)

Version Andy offering up suspect is the vibe pump, tanked only variety. There is another model between this and the rotary one which offers the option to plumb in should you wish and they tend to go up in price by about £100 so the rotarry pump is approx £200 more than the "entry level" brewtus DB when not on offer.

Disadvantage of Vibratory pump is noise yes, but also cheap to replace should it fail in the future ( they don't fail that often, think how old the one may be in your classic as an example)

Which would i choose: Plumb in Vibe or rotary but thats because I am cheesed off with keep filling a tank! However am aware this would also bring the additional cost of the filter/ head and pipework etc.

There are lots of threads re the benefits / disadvantages of the two types on the forum of you have a look about and lots of info from those far smarter than I too.

Hope the above of help

John


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Here are my thoughts on some of points raised above.

The expobar is a great machine, almost certainly the best DB for the cash. I find it funny that people talk about the noise that vibe machines make, and yeah compared to a rotary they are pretty noisy, however, IMHO grinders generally make more noise than the machine and there are not many people who make the decision on which grinder based on the amount of noise it makes so why would the machine be different...

Anyway, I am a former Verona owner and seriously loved that machine. I went to BB to buy a Brewtus or a Rocket Giotto and came away with the Verona. The decision was two fold, the Rockets look nice but felt flimsy so they were out. BB let me spend a morning there (they didn't have much of a say in it TBH) playing on both machines. For me the Verona delivered slightly more in the cup but there wasn't much in it. Also when the two were sat side-by-side the Verona looked beautiful in comparison to the Brewtus, the build quality was really nice to boot. Anyway after a few hours of tinkering I called the Mrs, cleared the extra spend and walked away extremely happy. If I only had the cash for the brewtus I'd have been equally as happy and would have taken that over the rocket any day.

In summary, if I had to choose then I'd put the extra £600 towards a class grinder and go with the Brewt. If money is no object then Verona and quality grinder would be where my cash ended up.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

With regards to water filters, you can get something to remove the elements that can cause scale if you want to plumb in. I know a few shops that use BWT Bestmax and Bestmax Premium filters as they reduce lime scale and chlorine and also replace Calcium with Magnesium which should sweeten up your brews. Considering how many litres they are good for, they shouldn't be too much of an outlay.

Using bottled water (Volvic/Ashbeck/Clearview) is a possibility if you want to go tanked as they all contain relatively low carbonate levels however finding something with the ideal chemical compounds for espresso extraction is pretty much impossible. They can also be expensive depending on how much you drink.

Britta jugs don't remove scale so they are not really an option in hard water areas.

I have a BWT Bestmin filter as I'm in a soft water area and that works pretty well, it actually introduces some elements into the water which help with coffee extraction however this is not perfect either.

I'm currently 'making' my own water but that's one for another post/another day


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Three great posts there guys, thank you. It gives me a lot more to think about but I'm starting to come round to thinking the Brewtus is the way forward. I've just had a look at the Verona and although it looks stunning, the price is way out of my league. The Brewtus is already way too much money and I'm not even joking! I'm just trying to convince myself that it would be a one off purchase









In relation to the model choice, I've just been looking at mainline filters and their associated costs. Moneysavingexpert offers some really good advice and one thread has been running for 7 years on the subject of removing limescale. The long and short of it is that you have to spend a considerable amount of money to put a system in place that will remove limescale effectively. Most other systems only reduce by varying degree.

Anyway, that research has led me to think that I would just buy bottled water.....but how long before I just use tap water and then de scale on a regular basis? On that note, does anyone think it's reasonable to remove limescale if I were to descale once a month or even every two weeks?


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Descaling is a massive job.....hours.

You don't want to remove all the scale, just take it down to about 100ppm. A Brita C will do that with its eyes shut as long as you get the headunit with the variable bypass setting (not the fixed 30% one)


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Big Tony said:


> Three great posts there guys, thank you. It gives me a lot more to think about but I'm starting to come round to thinking the Brewtus is the way forward. I've just had a look at the Verona and although it looks stunning, the price is way out of my league. The Brewtus is already way too much money and I'm not even joking! I'm just trying to convince myself that it would be a one off purchase
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Descaling the Expo (or in fact most dual boilers) is no mean feat. I'm sure one of the owners/ex-owners will chime in here and give you the gory details







Either way it's probably not something that you would want to do regularly if you can help it.

The Verona has pretty easy access to drain the boilers which makes it a much simpler task, still a few hours though.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> I'm currently 'making' my own water but that's one for another post/another day


I'm imagining a scene from Waterworld.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I'm imagining a scene from Waterworld.


The one on redtube, right? You got it!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Tony, you need t establish how 'hard' your existing water supply is. If you google your water supplier and add water results then you ought to be able to find a fairly accurate figure. From memory Volvic has a tads of around 17 and that is about what you need to aim for. Prevention is easier than cure!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> The one on redtube, right? You got it!


I was thinking of the Kevin Costner one, but the redtube one might be an improvement.


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Ok, I'm with Anglian Water and a postcode search reveals




279.75 mg/l (or parts per million):Calcium Carbonate 


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Ashbeck is as follows (mg/L)

Calcium 11

Magnesium 3

Sodium 9

Bicarb 30

Chloride 12

Sulphate 10


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Massive difference. I can't help but think my water would need massive help to get it to an acceptable reading.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Not much different to mine.

A Brita C set at 10% bypass brings it down to 100ppm which is about right for coffee


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

Version Andy offering up suspect is the vibe pump, tanked only variety. There is another model between this and the rotary one which offers the option to plumb in should you wish and they tend to go up in price by about £100 so the rotarry pump is approx £200 more than the "entry level" brewtus DB when not on offer.

Disadvantage of Vibratory pump is noise yes, but also cheap to replace should it fail in the future ( they don't fail that often, think how old the one may be in your classic as an example)

Which would i choose: Plumb in Vibe or rotary but thats because I am cheesed off with keep filling a tank!

John

The one I am offering is plumb or tank with vibe pump 

Andy


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Even better value then. OP would have the option to tank now and save towards the filter / bypass etc ( all assuming offer not finished of course....)

John


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Water is a lot more complicated than coffee folklore suggests. I recommend looking up Chris Hendon's and Maxwell and Lesley Colonna Dashwoods's academic paper on minerals in water: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/jf501687c

In most areas calcium levels are too high, as, often, are bicarbonate levels. In Bath we also have to deal with low magnesium levels, which need boosting in order to optimise the water for extraction.

JP


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jjprestidge said:


> Water is a lot more complicated than coffee folklore suggests. I recommend looking up Chris Hendon's and Maxwell and Lesley Colonna Dashwoods's academic paper on minerals in water: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/jf501687c
> 
> In most areas calcium levels are too high, as, often, are bicarbonate levels. In Bath we also have to deal with low magnesium levels, which need boosting in order to optimise the water for extraction.
> 
> JP


It's a good read but it doesn't really help with a solution though.

I spoke to the guys at BWT who looked at my water info and then offered their best solution for the job, could be worth the dropping them an email if you are serious about getting the best water for a plumbed machine Tony. If you are going tanked then the bottled water previously mentioned will do the job however none are ideal.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Double post


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

I have been reading up on a few articles since my last reply. I take on board the various comments but still feel that bottled water would be much cheaper overall. The pros for using bottled water mean that I can instantly use the machine and place it wherever I choose with zero limescale build up. A 5 litre bottle costs £1 which isn't exactly a great deal considering I might spend £3-£5 per day on food and drink.

opting for the plumbed version means that I would have to place it close to the sink and then do a bit of DIY myself. This DIY would cost me a few quid, maybe a tenner? Then I have to get the filter....how much is that? Another £80-£100? The Brita C300 is £90 on Amazon and the head that goes with it is £27. That filter needs replacing every 6 months? At a cost of another £80-£100. These are just estimates and I'm sure I'll be corrected, but can you see my point? So if I look at 5 years, am I right in thinking:

£10 DIY kit

£27 Filter head

£90 C300 filter x 2 per year = 10 total = £900

so call it £940 for five years water

spending £5 a week on bottled water is only £20 per month or £120 every 6 months, £240 per year or £1200 for the 5 years.

it seems quite a bit more expensive, but I'm not sure whether paying in small amounts per week is better than a big hit every 6 months?

there is also the question whether there would still be a build up of limescale with a filter in place considering that I live in hard water area. I read that the filter would reduce but not eliminate limescale. Surely bottled water wouldn't produce any limescale and would save the need to look at descaling in the future.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

C300 filter on eBay £30-40, head about £20 if you hunt about.

You don't need your machine near your sink, just on the same run of kitchen units.

If you go for the expo get the tank and plumb version. It means when you get sick of constantly filling it up you can plumb it in.

I had exactly the same thoughts as you initially btw


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Andy's offer would give you the chance to run bottled into the tank now, thus get you up and running quickly and the option to plumb it in later as this model is the middle of the dual boiler Brewtus' range having a tank and the gubbins on board to allow you to plumb in as well (this is not the rotary pump version referred to earlier but more a vibe plus if you want to think about it that way) . Hopefully this explains earlier posts a little better.

John


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## AL3XTUDOR (Nov 17, 2014)

Yeah i would 100% get the Brewtus plummed in!


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Yes, thanks, it does explain things.... I thought I had to choose one or the other. This makes things a little easier tbh.

in relation to the filters on eBay, there is only one I can find for £45 + £5 p&p. There is one head for £14 and another used head for £20. I suppose that would reduce the price to

£10 DIY

£20 head

£50 filter over five years

£530, versus £1200. That's a much bigger saving.... I'm starting to thaw!


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Keep an eye out for the head with the variable bypass, and for 150 and 300 cartridges. They pop up really cheaply


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Tony have you got space for an aquaquell 600?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Tony have you got space for an aquaquell 600?


Sounds interesting Dave what is one?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

commercial water filter with adjustable bypass, would work out a whole lot cheaper in the long run, would imagine a filter would last a couple of years in the home environment, the cases are pricey, but I have a few used ones if people are interested, the filters are around £70 on ebay from time to time.


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Let me google it and take a look mate.


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Looks interesting mate. Is it just a bigger version of the unit that we were talking about earlier in the thread? I could fit it under my sink if the Mrs will let me haha....does that sound like the kind of place it would go?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

yes the 600 should fit provided no shelves in there


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

The cartridges are around £150 though. Have you any idea how long they would last?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

you need to know where to look tony, i can get them for a lot less than that.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

i would think a couple of years in a home environment, they last around 6 months on a commercial machine


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

That sounds pretty good mate.... Although I've no idea what I need to get it up and running I.e connectors etc... What have you got from your end and what would I need? Appreciate your help with this everyone.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I am pretty sure i have everything that you will need, are you going to run it from a washing machine feed?


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Sorry mate, fell asleep. I can run it from the washing machine feed if needed. In fact, there is room behind my washing machine, right next to the washing machine feed where I could place the filter. It would mean that I'd have to drill through the kitchen work too to feed the pipe into the back of the machine, but we have an old kitchen anyway so it won't be an issue.

How much money am I looking at for your bits and pieces Dave?


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Did you get my pm Dave?


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