# Help nudge a 'bean-to-cupper' into the light



## Moon (Jul 12, 2010)

Hello coffee lovers.

I need a new espresso machine. I've read many posts on this fine forum, and would love your opinion...

My first (& only) espresso machine is a Gaggia Titanium bean-to-cup machine purchased new 4 years ago. It's bought me much pleasure and produced coffee better than most coffee I've bought in the UK since.

However it also caused much vexation & gnashing of teeth when the stupid thing broke down - again & again (internal leaks from both the brew side and steam side, stuck in rinse cycle, steam tap wouldn't close properly and more). This situation was made much worse by the s l o w & expensive Gaggia service - and this was before the Gaggia->Philips debacle.

So I came here to CoffeeForums to investigate a new bean-to-cup jobby, but reading the posts here, I'm tempted to go the semi-automatic route... I enjoyed coaxing the best coffee possible out of the Titanium, and the extra control a semi-automatic will give me is quite appealing.

So now I need some help with equipment please









I've read many articles and reviews in the last few days and arrived at the conclusions below... but please do challenge my conclusions & assumptions as appropriate!!

In general, I prefer a well (or even over) engineered design and high build quality rather than a low price. I'm not interested in spending money on flashy looks or a particular brand name - function over form for me please!

Reliabilty, good aftersales service and long term availabilty of spare parts are very important too. I have zero interest in any Gaggia product (at least as long as I live in the UK).

*Grinder:* Thinking Mazzer Mini E Type A - I'm liking the build quality & the way I only need to grind as much as I need. I don't tend to vary my coffee beans often, so the timer should work well for me once set. I think the standard bean hopper will fit under my kitchen wall units, and the shorter hopper definitely will.

The misses likes the Mahlkonig Vario Coffee Grinder - it would also be much better choice space wise. Would I regret saving £200 by buying this instead of the Mazzer?

*The main machine:* 90% of the beverages we make are latte & cappucino type jobbies - so I want a steamer that can bore a hole in my kitchen counter... and the steamer bit must steam whilst the espresso bit espresses.

We normally make only 1 or 2 coffees at a time, 3 or 4 times a day, so we don't mind if the machine is not optimised for making many coffees at once. However, our coffee desires are somewhat impulsive, so a reasonable warm up time is desirable.

The Gaggia Titanium uses a thermoblock for steam - it produced adequate steam reasonably quickly, but am I correct that a boiler driven steamer will produce more steam and better foam in a quicker time (once the boiler is at temperature)?

Despite reading many glowing reviews of some HX machines, it doesn't seem quite right to the engineer in me... Brew tempreture seems to be an important part of the process, but HX is a design with inherent temperature stability problems? Is there any benefit other than cost over dual boiler machines?

If I (reluctantly) put my reality hat on though - most of my espresso is diluted (corrupted?) with milk, so would I really be able to detect subtle variations in brew temperature of a HX machine?

The dual boiler thing does seem to restrict my choice too... Alex Duetto II or Expobar Office Leva (Dual Boiler). Any others that are available & officially supported here in the UK? Cost aside, most of the commercial machines don't seem appropriate for 10 shots a day, but as always, I'm open to suggestion!

*Budget:* Two options really...

A. £2100 (Coffee >> car) if I go dual boiler, I'm leaning towards the Duetto at an eye watering £1600 + £500 for the Mazzer. This is definitely pushing the boundries (and marriage perhaps), and will mean I'm relegated to the bicycle for the next year or two. The Mahlkonig Vario Coffee Grinder is an option too.

B. £1000 (Coffee == car) The choice at this price point is much bigger & hence harder to decide! I quite like the following, but would appreciate some alternatives to read up about. I'm thinking maybe...

Mahlkonig Vario Coffee Grinder + Expobar Office Pulsar

My wife (ever the loving voice of reason) is thinking £1000 should provide a significant quality increase over the old Gaggia Titanium - especially given our penchant for milky coffee. Logic suggests that 'diminishing returns' means the next £1000 spent will not be anywhere near as significant an improvement.... but what price that feeling of contentment derived from a tool perfectly suited to the job at hand!?

Phew. Didn't mean to write so much, so thanks for making it this far. I obviously miss my coffee machine more than I thought!

Cheers,

Moon


----------



## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

My thoughts for what they are worth.

Grinder - The Mazzer wins on sheer solidity of construction and its reputation, will last for years too. The Vario has been bought by a fair few forum members and seems very well thought of as well. I think the Mazzer is a wee bit overpriced due to reputation and for me the technowhizzery of the Vario would be tempting. TBH I am eminently satisfied with my much cheaper Iberital MC2 and would have to play with the Mazzer or Vario to prove their worth over it. Also do consider the Eureka Mignon which has been well reviewed.

Machines - have a good look at Bella Baristas site for the best range of seriously tempting machines and read the full reviews they do, I would want to go and get some hands on if possible. Money no object the Izzo Alex Duetto or Dalla Corte Mini, sensible head, the Expobar Leva dual boiler or Izzo Alex with rotary pump, very sensible head a Fracino Cherub which can be had for less than £600 if you look around.

Don


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Tought decisions ahead my friend.

However, I know one couple who have bought a Duetto / Mini Mazzer combo - and they work very well together

Such a pleasure to use and train on. Didn't want to have to say goodbye (and sadly it didn't fit in my bag...)


----------



## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

It looks like you have done plenty of research and your choices reflect that very well. If I was to buy new it would have been the Expobar Leva Dual Boiler, although I am not aware how well it is supported in the UK for spares. If my budget was stretched I would also consider the La Spaziale Vivaldi Mini.

Regarding grinders, I think the build quality of the Mazzer would sway me, although the flexibility of the Vario would also be tempting.

You never mentioned whether you would consider second-hand. Is this an option?


----------



## sandykt (Dec 3, 2009)

Moon - hello and welcome. As DonRJ says, go on the Bella Barista site. The machines will have you dribbling at the mouth but on a serious note their own reviews are very informative and well balanced.

As Mr Banish says, the Vario is flexible and as an owner, I can say I am happy with it. My dream grinder though would be a Mazzer Mini although I think it may well be that bit too big for my kitchen.

With a heathy budget such as yours, you are going to have some fun. Keep us all posted.


----------



## FurryCup (Jun 10, 2010)

Hi, I would go for the Vario and the Expobar Office Leva for just over £1,100.00. You get a great set up and a few more years of happy marriage. Don't in my opinion get a doser grinder all that flicking will give you calluses.


----------



## Fairfax Coffee (Jul 19, 2010)

Hello Moon

We have a vast amount of experience for those who want to drink espressos at home and don't ever like the idea of someone over spending or over specifying.

At the same time we do think that for a serious coffee lover which you obviously are there is a point in buying a brand that will last you a long time. Without doubt the Elektra machines like the Microcasa semi automatic for a pump driven or the Microcasa leva are beautiful machines made by a top Italian manufacturer. Their MSC grinder is definitely more than adequate, and in our opinion the Mazzer is only required by commercial use because of its capacity to produce pre programmed volumes quickly. If you do want a commercial size grinder then you could consider the Expobar 600, which is less expensive and less beautiful. All the grinders you mention are good of course but we sell the Ascaso i Mini for all domestic espresso machines. They would justify a lifetime guarantee in terms of quality and you can get them with doser if you want. And you spend a lot less money.

We like the semi automatic Elektra because this model has a heat exchanger and this will address some of your constant temperature concerns, as well as providing a constant and instant steam supply.

Ascaso Steel Bar machines have a 4 litre steam boiler and a professional brass boiler for ground coffee. We are using one here and the power of steam is fantastic, which it should be because its a commercial product.

You are right about the Expobar OFFICE LEVA EB-61 1 GR. We think this will fulfill all requirements as well. And the chromed finish looks great.

All the products we mention are supported by us, and one thing is for sure. You are going to be able to produce some fantastic traditional Italian style espresso when you go the semi automatic route - Bean to Cups dont compare in product terms, whatever the make.

Do let us know what you think of the above before you decide.

Bob at Fairfax


----------



## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

In the case that any used equipment doesn't take your fancy, I would have to say the mazzer mini. Having said this though, would be interesting to know what these guys are like and a super jolly, at £349, is a no brainer over the mini:

http://www.a1coffee.co.uk/index.php?app=gbu0&ns=prodshow&ref=MAZZER&sid=dp7507ac1zl6ry4801fha8lhljy378zj

However, please don't leave beans sitting for any time whatsoever in the hopper. They go stale unbelievably quick. This is why I wouldn't make judgment based upon the hopper size as I figure you generally won't make much use of it.

As with regards to machine, interesting that you've ruled out the vivi and the other alex's. I don't think a HX is inherently unstable tempaturewise compared to a dual boiler, it all depends on the mass of the boiler.

Any boiler with significant thermal mass in most of these machines takes time to come up to operating temperature, then you've got the brewhead in the case of the e61's which also takes time to come up to operating temperature, if you're looking for a machine which is capable of pulling a shot on demand very quickly, I'm not sure one of the prosumer/commercial machines would be desirable. (Of course the commercial machines would be almost permanently on). I've heard that dual boilers also need flushes before a shot can be pulled.

When that water is flowing round the e61's thermosyphon, the temperature is very consistent just because of the large amount of brass in the e61 brewhead.

However, I'm still personally of the thought that milk doesn't belong in espresso and the izzo alex mk2 paired with the compak k10 produces some fantastic shots (wasn't nearly as good with the mini)


----------



## Moon (Jul 12, 2010)

Thanks all very much for the advice... I'll read up on the machines suggested.

I'm not that keen on 2nd hand to be honest unless my budget was very low.

On closer inspection, I think the Mazzers are too big for my kitchen - the Mignon seems decent value and well reviewed, but man it will test my "form over function" call!!

I tried some instant coffee this morning - why is it even allowed to be called coffee? Someone call the EU quick and get it renamed "instant brown beverage" or summut. Uggh.


----------



## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

That's fair enough, just consider that you could get a very nice setup for £1k used







For £2k, i'd expect a very good setup new.

I don't think decent grinders get much smaller than the mini and I think you'd find the izzo would totally dwarf it, so I'd be surprised if you had space for a duetto but not a mazzer mini.


----------



## FurryCup (Jun 10, 2010)

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?2085-Eureka-Mignon

This is another great grinder. Similar size as a Vario and its Chrome. A little square maybe.


----------



## ChiarasDad (Mar 21, 2010)

FWIW the Mignon comes in both a flat "silver" finish (I think that's the same colour as the one that FurryCup linked to) and in very shiny chrome. And in some glossy enamels (some of the colours are shown here, but there are more).


----------



## Moon (Jul 12, 2010)

RisingPower said:


> That's fair enough, just consider that you could get a very nice setup for £1k used
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've had too many dodgy experiences with 2nd hand electronics, yet alone something mechanical like an espresso machine!



RisingPower said:


> I don't think decent grinders get much smaller than the mini and I think you'd find the izzo would totally dwarf it, so I'd be surprised if you had space for a duetto but not a mazzer mini.


The Duetto has a footprint a little bigger than my old coffee machine, so should be cool - the grinder is a whole new piece of kit I need to find space for. The misses is adamant that we still have counter space left over for chopping veg, cooking etc. Unreasonable of her I know, but what can you do









I'll have a better feel for what's possible space wise once I go somewhere to see the machines in the flesh.


----------



## FurryCup (Jun 10, 2010)

Looks like its chrome to me. Chrome is reflective therefore is only as shiny as the ambient light allows.

Below is the flat silver. Note the difference between the chrome fittings and the silver body.

Those coloured ones look like bubblegum machines YuK! IMO


----------



## Moon (Jul 12, 2010)

I'm still not sure about this HX 'cooling flush' malarky! I'm not worried about the need to flush, I'm just concerned about the fact you can underflush or overflush.

I've read about listening for 'water dance' and allowing recovery time etc., but this all seems... imprecise. Why do HX machines not have a temperature gauge to show the brew temperature at the group head? Then there would be no guess work?

This is the decision point for me to go ~£800 on a HX machine (Expobar Office Leva) or ~£1600 on a dual boiler (Alex Duetto II or Dalla Corte Mini).

Cheers,

Moon


----------



## DavidS (Apr 8, 2010)

HX machines don't use thermometers to determine boiler temp, they use pressure. Learning the cooling flush really isn't that difficult, and unless you're doing quick fire shots and flushing 50ml+ between, you wont over-flush.

You can easily hear when the temperature is right, and it actually allows you to experiment a little, brewing espresso at cooler and hotter temps.


----------



## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

I spent £815 on the office Leva and have no probs with it. I draw 4oz before the first shot and it's ready to go. You can hear the water dance fizzle out after 4oz. This coupled with a superjolly is good enough for me until I get a huge tax rebate.


----------



## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

dwalsh1 said:


> I spent £815 on the office Leva and have no probs with it. I draw 4oz before the first shot and it's ready to go. You can hear the water dance fizzle out after 4oz. This coupled with a superjolly is good enough for me until I get a huge tax rebate.


An Office Leva and Super Jolly - very nice. Have you posted a picture yet?


----------



## sandykt (Dec 3, 2009)

If only I could get a tax rebate.....


----------



## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

BanishInstant said:


> An Office Leva and Super Jolly - very nice. Have you posted a picture yet?


 Not sure how to but happy to do so.


----------



## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

There you go Banish.


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Your kitchen looks like it has character!


----------



## sandykt (Dec 3, 2009)

I love it, love it, love it.


----------



## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

Wow. That looks great, and with everything to hand too.


----------



## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Thanks for the nice comments people.


----------



## Moon (Jul 12, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your advice all those weeks ago. After much consideration I've bought a Office Leva Dual Boiler and a Eureka Mignon grinder.

I'm very happy so far - I do enjoy the coffee making process









Only regret so far is that it's not plumbed in - I'm forever lifting the lid to fill it. Not such a big deal, but means I can't fill it whilst warming my cups, and also exposes the less beautiful inside of the machine.

A question about the steam wand though - when the milk is cold I put the wand deep in the milk and turn the tap... and get a banshee like screaming that sends the poor cats fleeing. It passes after 10 seconds or so, and can be prevented if I turn the tap on with just 0.5cm of the tip in the milk.

What causes this?

(answers in this thread please http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?2557-Milk-Steaming)


----------



## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Moon said:


> I'm still not sure about this HX 'cooling flush' malarky! I'm not worried about the need to flush, I'm just concerned about the fact you can underflush or overflush.
> 
> I've read about listening for 'water dance' and allowing recovery time etc., but this all seems... imprecise. Why do HX machines not have a temperature gauge to show the brew temperature at the group head? Then there would be no guess work?
> 
> ...


Or ~£950 for an Expobar Office Leva Dual Boiler from BB. That's what I'm planning to get, similar case to the standard Office Leva but with no-burn steam wands, a brew pressure gauge and a PID. From what I've read nailing a certain temperature is easy and very repeatable.

It's called the Brewtus III in the rest of the world so that should help if you're looking for reviews, videos etc.

You don't need a cooling flush, just a short 'warming flush' maybe 1oz at the most just to bring everything up to temp.

Not in stock at BB right now but I spoke to Claudette last week and they should be getting a new shipment fairly soon.


----------



## ChiarasDad (Mar 21, 2010)

Moon said:


> Thanks everyone for your advice all those weeks ago. After much consideration I've bought a Office Leva Dual Boiler and a Eureka Mignon grinder.


Wow, Moon, I'm envious. Congratulations!


----------



## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

A very nice purchase. I tend to warm the cups using the hot water outlet (previously used a kettle) a few minutes prior to espresso preparation. I find the gentle warming of the machine insufficient.


----------

