# Simple distribution technique



## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

I have a eureka mignon and while a brilliant piece of kit, it is often a tad clumpy. I usually use a toothpick to distribute it in the pf but I do a crappy job and end up with some spritzers.

I got a tip on the HB site which I tried out today with good results. Simply grind into an empty milk jug and give it a good shake before 'pouring' it into the pf. Then tamp. Doesn't really add much if any time and I largely prevented the spritzers.


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## mike 100 (Jul 15, 2010)

Have a look on YouTube for Weiss Distribution Technique, same sort of idea but it's done in the portafilter with a "dosing funnel" (cut down yoghurt pot) I use this all the time now and find it works well.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Interesting idea..

Obviously, any grind "fluffyness" that your grinder produces will be lost by a shaking technique

wandering slightly off topic - i've often wondered how this "fluffyness" actually translates to the cup (+distribution/channeling etc.)

Perhaps someone knowledgeable could explain this?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Simple experiment can be done to find out. One shot with and one shot without WDT

Very occasionally (when grinding super fine) Roy will spit out a 'cube' which then makes its way into the portafilter (somehow surviving the doser thwacking) Ive not noticed any significant channeling as a result, however I guess it depends on how many 'cubes' we are talking about and how dense they are


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

aphelion said:


> - i've often wondered how this "fluffyness" actually translates to the cup (+distribution/channeling etc.)
> 
> Perhaps someone knowledgeable could explain this?


Don't profess to be an expert. Same beans through my HG One produce much much fluffier output compared to my Vario which I put down to huge difference in burr size and the much slower rpm of the HG so, little or no heat is transferred to the grind - but we are talking very small margins here. The greater the fluffiness the greater the consistency of the grind and, as a result, the greater capacity to extract the full potential from the dose. At present, I am playing around with taking the grind as fine as I can and applying no tamping pressure at all.


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

aphelion said:


> Interesting idea..
> 
> Obviously, any grind "fluffyness" that your grinder produces will be lost by a shaking technique
> 
> ...


But does it matter if the fluffiness disappears as it would go with the tamping anyway?


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Gangstarrrrr said:


> But does it matter if the fluffiness disappears as it would go with the tamping anyway?


Yup, maybe not..

Sounds like fluffyness implies the quality/consistency of the grind (probably makes no difference if you shake it out afterwards).


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Gangstarrrrr said:


> But does it matter if the fluffiness disappears as it would go with the tamping anyway?


Don't think so. Fluffiness just reflects the quality of the grind and the presence of plenty of air. If you stir it, say, with a toothpick, it collapses like a souffle and definitely disappears once in the basket and tamped.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

If youre tamping a level bed of coffee which contains a mix of fluff (ie not dense) and cubes (dense) this could cause chanelling - water finds the path of least resistance - dense bits will under extract and the least dense bits will over extract.

Could the average coffee drinker detect the over and under extractlon, I guess it depends on the extent of channeling?

If its all fluff , or all cubes, then density would be more even across the coffee bed. Persinally I prefer all fluff and thats what you tend to get with a large-burred commercial grinder like a Mazzer.


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> If youre tamping a level bed of coffee which contains a mix of fluff (ie not dense) and cubes (dense) this could cause chanelling - water finds the path of least resistance - dense bits will under extract and the least dense bits will over extract.
> 
> Could the average coffee drinker detect the over and under extractlon, I guess it depends on the extent of channeling?
> 
> If its all fluff , or all cubes, then density would be more even across the coffee bed. Persinally I prefer all fluff and thats what you tend to get with a large-burred commercial grinder like a Mazzer.


Here's another thing... If you have some clumps and fluff mix, when you tamp, will the density not become uniform as the density is greater than any of the clumps?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The reason you distribute is this. not even the best coffee grinder in the world will grind evenly. The size of each particle can and will vary tremendously (under a microscope), so you distribute to even out the size of the grind particles, not to break up the clump.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Gangstarrrrr said:


> Here's another thing... If you have some clumps and fluff mix, when you tamp, will the density not become uniform as the density is greater than any of the clumps?


If you confidently say the mix of cubes and fluff is even across the whole basket...

''Water always follows the path of least resistance through the coffee bed; it is the barista's job to create not only the proper amount of flow resistance, but also to form the coffee bed such that it provides uniform resistance to the water. A poorly formed coffee bed is vulnerable to the creation of a channel, an area of high-velocity flow through the coffee bed.

Channels are detrimental to brew strength and flavor. The large volume of water flowing through a channel dilutes the shot and causes the grounds along the channel to overextract, increasing bitterness. Because less water passes through the denser areas of the coffee bed, those areas underextract, resulting in underdeveloped flavors and lower brew strength.

''


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> The reason you distribute is this. not even the best coffee grinder in the world will grind evenly.


The best grinders and the humble tamper do an ample job of distribution. If you have visible channelling then perhaps intervention is needed.

Its worth adding that a mix of particle sizes is essential for expresso, fine migration is an important part of the extraction process . The opposite is true for brewed coffee where uniformity is sought - e.g Marco Uber grinder designed to produce 40% less fines than a Tanzania - superior filter coffee - both grinders being absolutely useless for espresso

''Fines play many important roles in espresso percolation; these will be discussed in detail in Chapter 3. For now it is important to know that the brewing water can transport and deposit fines lower in the coffee bed during percolation, a phenomenon known as fines migration. When fines and large insoluble protein molecules are deposited at the bottom of the coffee bed they can form a compact layer, or densely packed solid mass. A compact layer clogs holes at the bottom of the filter basket and can result in obstruction of flow paths, uneven resistance to flow, and channeling. It is desirable to have some fines, but too many fines or too much fines migration can damage espresso quality.''


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Gary, I have no idea. I was quoting Reiss from his blog, but who knows?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I was quoting the home barista's handbook.

If the coffee tastes amazing then all good.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Gary, FYI

if you've ground too fine and made a lousy job of the distribution of the coffee grinds in the basket what you will experience is the portafilter dripping almost instantly in the pre-infusion phase, and then when you release the spring, the extraction phase taking way too long

when you are 'doing it right' the portafilter won't drip for at least 10 seconds in the pre-infusion phase (longer with a light roast and/or a high dose), yet the extraction phase will still be in that 27-30s zone

what is distribution?

well even the very best grinders in the the world, regardless of cost, don't grind the coffee to a uniform size and shape

as a result you need to ensure that the 'mix' of slightly different shaped and sized grinds is about the same throughout the puck

so give the coffee grinds a vigourous stir with a cocktail fork or anything similar that you have to hand

for example, you dont want all the smallest grinds in one part of the puck and all the largest grinds in another part of the puck

if this occurs the resistance presented to the water is not uniform over the surface of the puck and so the water heads for the spot where the resistance is least, and that is what is known as 'channelling'. The bulk of the water flows through a single point in the puck at low pressure resulting in an under-extracted espresso, which will taste poor

bear in mind that channelling varies greatly from severe (water just gushes through a single point in the puck extremely quickly - obvious) to almost undetectable (less water flowing through some areas of the puck than others, but water still moving through all areas of the puck)

when you make an effort to get an even distribution of the grinds of different shapes & sizes throughout the puck you will be able to grind coarser, yet the puck will still hold back the water for a long time in the pre-infusion phase

the payoff is the extraction phase will then reduce to the 27-30s zone and you will experience whatever roast you are using at its best

rightly or wrongly i believe that the optimal extraction time is the same for all roasts (around 27s), but the pre-infusion phase needs to be varied (short for low doses &/or dark roasts - long for high doses &/or light roasts)

if your extraction phase is currently significantly longer than 30s you will be tasting a woodiness, much like sucking on a pencil as i remember from school days

improve your distribution so it doesn't drip immediately, then you can grinder more coarsely and your extraction time will reduce and the unpleasant woodiness will disappear and your espresso will suddenly taste a lot cleaner. If the roast is meant to have fruit notes in it they will suddenly appear too as you get the extraction time down

so go on, make an effort to get the distribution right & taste the difference immediately


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Thanks. Does he use a Mini-e by any chance?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think you know he uses an HG One


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Looks like a distribution method test day is required following the grind off!!!

For what it is worth since using a similar method to the OP my pours have been ultra consistent and bang on once dialled in. Much less faff than the dreaded WDT.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

less is more. Pay a bit more on a grinder and save yourself 1/2 your workflow with faffing


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Gary,

please explain the purpose of a doser to the uninitiated.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Original purpose was to provide a set dose of coffee when full.

Many barista now use it to thwack the coffee into the portafilter , taking care of any clumps & assisiting with distributing the coffee evenly into the basket. There are pros and cons to this for the home user.

A high-end doserless grinder should provide a grind quality directly into the basket which negates the need for thwacking or (re)distribution. There also are pros and cons to this for the home-user.


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

I'm seeing an improvement in my shots now. Grind into the milk jug, give it a little downward thwack to distribute the mound and then tamp.

I also picked up another point on HB, which appears to be debatable. I wasn't warming up my pf before loading the grinds, and I'd get a donut extraction almost every time. The theory goes that a cold pf will expand when the hot water hits allowing for side channeling. I now warm the pf up and donuts seem to have gone.

I poured a lovely 44g shot from 22g of Brazilian fazenda from londonium in 32s. Very little spritzing.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Gangstarrrrr said:


> I'm seeing an improvement in my shots now. Grind into the milk jug, give it a little downward thwack to distribute the mound and then tamp.
> 
> I also picked up another point on HB, which appears to be debatable. *I wasn't warming up my pf before loading the grinds*, and I'd get a donut extraction almost every time. The theory goes that a cold pf will expand when the hot water hits allowing for side channeling. I now warm the pf up and donuts seem to have gone.
> 
> I poured a lovely 44g shot from 22g of Brazilian fazenda from londonium in 32s. Very little spritzing.


Temperature stability is another reason for keeping the p-filter in the group.

Sounds like you are making good progress


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

So it could be said then, that a doser, whether accidentally or by sesign, actually does the distribution part for the user. Perhaps that explains why users of doser machines do not need to distribute whilst doserless users perhaps do. Not to break up clumps, especially if there are none to break up, but to help distribute an uneven grind.


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> So it could be said then, that a doser, whether accidentally or by sesign, actually does the distribution part for the user. Perhaps that explains why users of doser machines do not need to distribute whilst doserless users perhaps do. Not to break up clumps, especially if there are none to break up, but to help distribute an uneven grind.


But then with a doser, does is mound? If so, is a thwack enough to then tamp? I can't imagine it drops flat, ready to tamp straight away?

Also does a doser have retention issues? Or do you normally get almost all you put in? Assuming single dosing.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

GS, the point I am making, is that anything that you can do to improve your shot should become part of your ritual. this starts off with weighing beans in etc etc. On a doserless grinder, there maybe issues that a doer model does not suffer from, such as static and the list goes on. A good grinder ought to leave you a nice mound in the middle, but that is not to say it will. The distribution aspect comes from the fact that coffee beans when ground, do not grind evenly, so all you are doing is trying to distribute the unevenness evenly, if that make sense!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Gangstarrrrr said:


> But then with a doser, does is mound? If so, is a thwack enough to then tamp? I can't imagine it drops flat, ready to tamp straight away?
> 
> Also does a doser have retention issues? Or do you normally get almost all you put in? Assuming single dosing.


Why cant you tamp a mound? I have found with a convex tamper base it produces more even extractions.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Go to 2mins 50 seconds onwards of this video - tamps stright onto the mound






youll see no attempt to distribute the coffee after thwacking the doser. This technique was again by Colin in 2012.

If its good enough for the WBC....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Gangstarrrrr said:


> But then with a doser, does is mound? If so, is a thwack enough to then tamp? I can't imagine it drops flat, ready to tamp straight away?
> 
> *Also does a doser have retention issues? Or do you normally get almost all you put in? Assuming single dosing*.


With a standard doser probably not. A few simple mods and yes you get 100% of the coffee out. 18g in 18g out


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Go to 2mins 50 seconds onwards of this video - tamps stright onto the mound


Which is exactly my point. A professional using a professional machine will have it set up in a way no amateur could for how he wishes to pull his shot. If you take the doser away, you rely upon the grinds tumbling into the pf and then all sorts of variables come into play, which is exactly why on a doserless grinder, distribution plays a big part. Ok, take it to silly examples, but let us agree that beans do not grind evenly. If by chance your larger particles all sat in the same part of the pf, then this would cause channeling, with or without a tamp. So the idea, is to mix up the different sized particles.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Which is exactly my point. *A professional using a professional machine will have it set up in a way no amateur could for how he wishes to pull his shot*. If you take the doser away, you rely upon the grinds tumbling into the pf and then all sorts of variables come into play, which is exactly why on a doserless grinder, distribution plays a big part. Ok, take it to silly examples, but let us agree that beans do not grind evenly. If by chance your larger particles all sat in the same part of the pf, then this would cause channeling, with or without a tamp. So the idea, is to mix up the different sized particles.


Can you expand on this ?

I am an amateur but use exactly the same method. My grinder was far cheaper than a Vario


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Why cant you tamp a mound? I have found with a convex tamper base it produces more even extractions.


I guess the practicalities prove otherwise, but in my mind, I think, if you squash a triangular mound, the squashed product will be a lot denser in the middle than the edges - assuming no grinds move to the edges to even things out as you tamp.

I'm probably over complicating it, as empirical results disprove the above!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Gangstarrrrr said:


> I guess the practicalities prove otherwise, but in my mind, I think, if you squash a triangular mound, the squashed product will be a lot denser in the middle than the edges - *assuming no grinds move to the edges* to even things out as you tamp.
> 
> I'm probably over complicating it, as empirical results disprove the above!


Thats where the convex base creates an outwards action?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?9415-Tamp-and-Dose-Techniques&highlight=convex


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Thats where the convex base creates an outwards action?


Yes, makes a lot of sense to me.

Now to hunt for a 58.35mm convex tamper under £40-50! The torr ones look interesting but a bit more than I want to spend. Off to the US in a few weeks so might pick one up there if I can find their equivalent of coffeehit...


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I think the cheapest is 54 euro delivered, plain black aluminum handle.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Expand on what exactly Gary? The answer will be yes of ourselves! Knock does that size tamer. Question, do you really think 0.35 of one mm really makes a lot f difference or is it just coffee bollocks!


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I think the cheapest is 54 euro delivered, plain black aluminum handle.


Just ordered one of these bad boys - convex









http://cafe-kultur.de/collections/tampers/products/goldfinger_2012


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

Very nice.what configuration you plumped for?


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

bubbajvegas said:


> Very nice.what configuration you plumped for?


Convex VST, Inox Washer, Burled Palisander (very rare apparently)

one in from the right (6 of 7):-







[


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> I think the cheapest is 54 euro delivered, plain black aluminum handle.


That's brill, thanks. Much better than I expected. If madebyknock did a convex tamper I'd have their tamper/VST combo. Also checking out reg barber tampers in the US, prices don't appear too bad, around £45. Will likely opt for the torr one though.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Gangstarrrrr said:


> But then with a doser, does is mound? If so, is a thwack enough to then tamp? I can't imagine it drops flat, ready to tamp straight away?
> 
> Also does a doser have retention issues? Or do you normally get almost all you put in? Assuming single dosing.


That all depends on the doser chamber, some sweep absolutely clean


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Go to 2mins 50 seconds onwards of this video - tamps stright onto the mound


Doesn't he bin two of those shots?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

aphelion said:


> Just ordered one of these bad boys - convex
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You, sir, are a deviant


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> Doesn't he bin two of those shots?


haha, OK maybe not the best example, none were binned in 2012 using the same set up ; )


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> You, sir, are a deviant


Its true..I just couldn't help myself


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Go to 2mins 50 seconds onwards of this video - tamps stright onto the mound


My anfim is exactly the same - grind, fill and tamp with no faff. Produces lovely results.


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

aphelion said:


> Just ordered one of these bad boys - convex
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks good, but 120 euros for a tamper! I'm struggling to bring myself to spend £25 on a newer and nicer looking one.


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

Southpaw said:


> My anfim is exactly the same - grind, fill and tamp with no faff. Produces lovely results.


Same with my Brasilia,grind and tamp,no levelling,distribution or faff,I love it


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Southpaw said:


> Looks good, but 120 euros for a tamper! I'm struggling to bring myself to spend £25 on a newer and nicer looking one.


Haha







unfortunately i've gone through 3 tampers in as many months..they've all been crap!

Decided to finally get me a decent one (may have got a bit carried away)

I couldn't get a Reg Barber specced how I wanted it..Gary recommended Torr

..i'm gonna blame him!


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

Does anyone know if the handle on the madebyknock tampers can be used with other bases?


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Gangstarrrrr said:


> Does anyone know if the handle on the madebyknock tampers can be used with other bases?


Mine definitely doesn't fit in a motta base


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

aphelion said:


> Mine definitely doesn't fit in a motta base


I wonder if it can be used with a reg barber base? I'm being a bit tight and might try and get a 58.4 convex AND flat while scrimping on the handle (that and I don't have any space in my flat!!)


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

aphelion said:


> Haha
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What was wrong with the other 3? Even a plastic one is functional to a degree. It does look smart but I'm still working towards the £25 mark


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Southpaw said:


> What was wrong with the other 3? Even a plastic one is functional to a degree. It does look smart but I'm still working towards the £25 mark


Just wasn't happy with the quality of my Knock VST (or the fit of my Motta).

I planned to buy a Reg Barber for about £60 quid, but you can't get one with a convex VST base here in the UK (coffeehit ain't stocking them).

So, I started talking to Jens from Torr who magically subtracted 130 euros from my bank









..what can I say, the man's a genius!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Gangstarrrrr said:


> I wonder if it can be used with a reg barber base? I'm being a bit tight and might try and get a 58.4 convex AND flat while scrimping on the handle (that and I don't have any space in my flat!!)


There are other handles that slot into a reg barber base


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Gangstarrrrr said:


> I wonder if it can be used with a reg barber base? I'm being a bit tight and might try and get a 58.4 convex AND flat while scrimping on the handle (that and I don't have any space in my flat!!)


Some really nice ones only cost £15


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Some really nice ones only cost £15


Thanks. Might just pick up 2 reg barber bases then, 1 convex, 1 not.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I love my reg barber convex 58mm perfect if you grinder does a lovely mound of coffee


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

These are both £15 handles on reg barber bases, will dig out where I got them from

View attachment 2406


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Buy cheap , buy twice.

I like Tutbury Tea Rooms cheap motta, however the convex base is on the narrow side , probably sub 58mm...


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

aphelion said:


> So, I started talking to Jens from Torr who magically subtracted 130 euros from my bank
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just looked through the website and there is some really beautiful stuff


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