# Coffee Machine on extension lead. Okay??



## Deeez Nuuutz (Apr 15, 2018)

Hi, What's the general consensus on connecting a coffee machine to an extension lead with other accessories?

I made my better half a coffee this morning on my new ECM Synchronika. When I went back my make my own coffee the lights had gone out (green & orange) and the PID was blank. Pressed a button on the PID and nothing... So I assumed that it had ran out/low of water as I'm using it via the reservoir atm. Opened the flap and the reservoir was low so I topped it up. Then I couldn't get the machine to turn on. Switched it off and back on again and nothing. Switched the mains off and on and nothing. I then switched the switch for tank feed and still nothing, so switched it back. Checked reservoir and all okay, float at the top, in correct place and reservoir tank properly in place etc.

The only thing I noticed was the green light was dim when switched on instead of bright like it had been/should be.

The last thing I thought to try was to remove the plug from the extension lead and plug it directly into the mains socket, and it worked!

So I'm wondering if it was unable to draw the power it needed? There is only 3 items connected to the extension lead, the coffee machine, my Niche grinder and a Philips Hue light. Surely that's not using up too much power?

The extension lead is rated to 3000W. This is was it says on the product description:

"You can have a maximum 10 sockets with up to a load of 3000W combined from all 10 plugs."

Its this one:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Duronic-ST10B-Extension-Engineered-protected-Black/dp/B000OV0CEY

I was planning on plugging the extension lead with the 3 items mentioned above into a Meross WiFi plug, which I received today so I could turn everything on remotely, but I'm not sure now?

Any my ideas why this happened and have I done anything wrong?

Thanks,

Tony


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## Amvantage (Jun 20, 2018)

Taken from the description on the website-

"SAFETY TIP FOR ANY EXTENSION LEAD If you purchase this lead or any extension lead; we strongly advise never to use any high powered item such as heaters, kettle, iron, hair dryers etc. Any extension lead, not just ours will give approx. 3000W in total; if a heater is 3000W and it takes 1 socket, then you can't use the other 4; it doesn't matter how many sockets there are left. "

You look to be very close to the limit running the ECM and Niche at the same time, I'd look at alternative means for the power if I was you.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

@DavecUK may know more about the Niche's draw. I recall that some types of grinders may use a lot more power when it's starting the motor, but I thought I read a while ago that the Niche would be relatively low though I cannot see something specific about it now.

Do you know what size the Synchronika element is or what rating it is overall?


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## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

Does the machine just use a standard 13 amp plug? I ask as its description states 1400w & 1200w heaters, so if both were on that's 20 amps (230v) which is 7 amps more than the standard domestic plugs are designed to delivery (long-term). Add any other devices, and it may be like the straw that broke the camel's back.


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

The espresso machine and the grinder should ideally be plugged seperate. As and mentions, when both boilers are drawing power, there's too much load


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

AndyDClements said:


> Does the machine just use a standard 13 amp plug? I ask as its description states 1400w & 1200w heaters, so if both were on that's 20 amps (230v) which is 7 amps more than the standard domestic plugs are designed to delivery (long-term). Add any other devices, and it may be like the straw that broke the camel's back.


2600W divided by 220V is 11.8A.


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

PPapa said:


> 2600W divided by 220V is 11.8A.


Then take into consideration the grinder.


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## Deeez Nuuutz (Apr 15, 2018)

Yes it's a 13amp plug of which a kind of angled kettle lead is plugged into:



















I couldn't get the machine to switch on even. The boilers were not on or drawing any power. The grinder was only on standby.

Thanks


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Deeez Nuuutz said:


> Yes it's a 13amp plug of which a kind of angled kettle lead is plugged into:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd probably think it's the machine at fault after reading your thread fully as nothing popped fuses etc.

Try running the machine in socket and not the extension lead if possible to take the lead out the equation.

I tend not to plug any high load items into extension leads as just asking for trouble.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

Never use a long extension lead that's wound up, No No No, a coffee machine deserves a dedicated supply other than perhaps a WiFi switched unit, I run mine from a double ring main wall socket with no issues whatsoever, avoid to many interfaces ...... reminds me when 'Me Mam plugged the electric iron into the 3 way light adaptor' earth .. what earth ... only what on earth are you doing....

Jon.


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Not sure it's relevant but I had a Euro plug on the lead on my Vesuvius. Decided to just cut of and replace with a UK plug. Neater, less bulky and a few on the forum expressed their dislike for the adaptor option.


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## Deeez Nuuutz (Apr 15, 2018)

Jason1wood said:


> I'd probably think it's the machine at fault after reading your thread fully as nothing popped fuses etc.
> 
> Try running the machine in socket and not the extension lead if possible to take the lead out the equation.
> 
> I tend not to plug any high load items into extension leads as just asking for trouble.


Well I've had it plugged directly into the mains all day and it's been fine.

Strange that it was okay plugged into the extension lead with everything else when i first got it and working fine with everything else running too.

Only when it had (I think) ran out of water that it switched itself off and wouldn't power up again. It then only powered up when I plugged it directly into the mains.

Like I also said, when it wouldn't work, the green light was only lit up very dim and not bright like it should be...


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Looks like they have supplied the machine with a crappy euro to uk plug adapter, these are often pretty crappy. I would be tempted to cut the crappy plug and adapter off and put a quality plug on, it may make the difference.

The adapter has an uk brand but is made in china - we used to have a really good fuse system for plugs in the uk 3amp, 5amp, 10 amp 13amd but because all the gear is now made in china and they don't care about the quality or safety we have had to switch to a 3amp or 13amp fuse system in plugs to take account of the crap fuses that were being sent over.

also don't trust the rating of an extension lead if it came from china - most of the cheap extention leads sold in shops and supermarkets are utter bollocks, bad earth connections , gauge of wire often inadequate as well that they often fail a pat test out of the box.

grumble grumble


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

jimbojohn55 said:


> Looks like they have supplied the machine with a crappy euro to uk plug adapter, these are often pretty crappy. I would be tempted to cut the crappy plug and adapter off and put a quality plug on, /QUOTE]
> 
> I said a few forum members didn't like those adapters


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

To continue my rant - Duronic look like an import merchant selling rebranded goods, if you want a quality lead look for one made by Masterplug such as this

https://www.screwfix.com/p/masterplug-13a-4-gang-unswitched-extension-lead-1m/8935G?tc=FA6&ds_kid=92700019938450661&ds_rl=1241687&ds_rl=1245250&ds_rl=1249401&ds_rl=1248154&ds_rl=1245250&ds_rl=1247848&gclid=CjwKCAiA99vhBRBnEiwAwpk-uPbSkW7jeTpZNij8AS7Cvv4JFgTKzMeYhhl0vRpVZhjZ_q06-zmNOhoCQi8QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

PPapa said:


> 2600W divided by 220V is 11.8A.


Somehow I typed (correctly 230v) and did the maths as 130v. Doh

that pretty much sums up my day. I checked my 'phone OS version, yes 6.1, so I can delete this old version of an app for work, and add the new one that needs 6.0 or greater. new one not allowed, as my 'phone was 5.1.

"More haste less speed" as they say.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

AndyDClements said:


> Somehow I typed (correctly 230v) and did the maths as 130v. Doh
> 
> that pretty much sums up my day. I checked my 'phone OS version, yes 6.1, so I can delete this old version of an app for work, and add the new one that needs 6.0 or greater. new one not allowed, as my 'phone was 5.1.
> 
> "More haste less speed" as they say.


Poses the question, what action have you instigated on the OD info







:drink:







anyone







.

Jon.


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## Deeez Nuuutz (Apr 15, 2018)

In theory it should be fine with the ECM and my Niche on the same extension lead.

The first thing I'll try is to get a Masterplug extension lead and try that instead of the one I'm currently using and see if the problem happens again. If it does then I'll just plug the ECM directly into the mains on its own.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Just a note to all users about 13amp plugs and sockets of all kinds be they extensions or wall sockets:

Some years back 13amp sockets were modified to include an insulated sleeve around the power pins. I guess it was to stop those folks who remove plugs whilst the power is switched on from potentially touching the pins and getting a shock or even being electrocuted.

The result is that we now only have half of each pin able to make contact with the socket receptacle which is under spring tension. Smaller contact area equals more current passing through that contact area equals more heat.

Now consider the socket being spring loaded to give a good connection. Any weakening of the spring produces a smaller still connection area and potentially a very poor connection which is prone to arcing. Arcing produces carbon deposits which heat and start to melt plastic if left long enough as does a loose connection anywhere in a circuit.

Worn out sockets and extensions need replacing sooner rather than later. sockets in constant use by plugging in and unplugging get weaker sooner

In the case of a coffee machine it will pull a constant heavy load until it is hot in the same way as a kettle after which it will only need short bursts of power to maintain temperature so this should allow any plug socket to cool even if it is hot however if you have more than one high power item plugged in and they come on together this too can stress/overheat a socket even if it is only on for a matter of seconds.

It is my opinion that it is worth paying extra for good quality plugs and sockets (wall sockets from MK for example) and to get the best out of these then leave plugs plugged in with the wall switch off until needed

Just a footnote: Use coil up type extension leads FULLY UNWOUND to prevent overheating and potential fires. Don't believe me? Boil a kettle plugged into one and see how warm it gets (after it is disconnected please)


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

grumpydaddy said:


> Just a note to all users about 13amp plugs and sockets of all kinds be they extensions or wall sockets:
> 
> Some years back 13amp sockets were modified to include an insulated sleeve around the power pins. I guess it was to stop those folks who remove plugs whilst the power is switched on from potentially touching the pins and getting a shock or even being electrocuted.
> 
> ...


Spot on and sound advice. Just because the specs say it will take the load, doesn't mean all other factors are in peak performance


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Also, I think those machines come setup by default with each boiler working in turns, brew boiler having priority over the service/steam boiler. So it might be the machine is not even drawing the current you think it's drawing.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Never mind the lead! Have we congratulated you on your new acquisition - congrats!!!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The Synchronika can take 2.6kw plus what the pump takes. Believe it or not that isn't far off the limit of our 3 pin plugs and sockets providing they are decent ones. With extension leads there may be comments about not plugging certain things in. That's passing the 3kw aspect back to the socket that the lead is plugged in to not the sockets in their extension lead which are often complete and utter tat. The plug on high wattage items may not be too good as well. We are using a 3kw space heater at times for short periods in one room as the radiator is out for replacement. The plug gets warm. It's plugged into an MK socket on a ring main. It gets to a certain temperature and stops there. It's what I would expect for a 3kw load. The heating up could be avoided by permanently wiring in or switching to a 16 or 32amp plug and socket.

Normally few things take that sort of power for long. I believe that there are some electric cookers about that can be run on a normal 3 pin plug and socket but it wouldn't surprise me if regulations specify don't do it. The are some shower cabins with steam etc that come with a normal plug - for testing purposes only. They should be wired to a spur ideally going to the consumer unit. Probably must go to it actually but a lot would depend on what else is on a ring main. If some electrician has done a cheap job on wiring a kitchen they may just use a single wire rather than a ring main. They are inclined to. Easy to tell as it should have 20amp protection trips rather than the 32 for a ring main.

Basically a decent extension lead should be ok for even a 2.7kw espresso machine providing none is wound up into a cable drum. The machine shouldn't be taking 2.7kw all of the time especially if it has PID. A decent extension lead is IMHO unlikely to look like the one posted by the OP. I'd suggest Masterpug which can be bought from Screwfix, Their plugs are well regarded as well. Alternatively these things and 2.5mm^2 cable maybe heat resistant flexible from wickes etc if a lash up.

https://www.toolstation.com/mk-dp-switched-socket/p77345?r=googleshopping&rr=marin&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=googleshoppingfeed&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyvaVyv_j3wIV4ZXtCh3rjQzaEAQYASABEgL_DPD_BwE

They can be mounted in back boxes or surface patresses.

Maybe an MK plug from the same place. The wires going into them are clamped in a more effective way than the usual.







At least it's seen as being more effective. They do show how to wire them. It's a case of twisting the wire around a screw in the correct direction.

John

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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Indeed, congratulations Deeez! Any photos?


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## Deeez Nuuutz (Apr 15, 2018)

PPapa said:


> Indeed, congratulations Deeez! Any photos?


I just posted a few in the ECM section 

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?48029-Looking-at-buying-a-Synchronika


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

jlarkin said:


> @DavecUK may know more about the Niche's draw. I recall that some types of grinders may use a lot more power when it's starting the motor, but I thought I read a while ago that the Niche would be relatively low though I cannot see something specific about it now.
> 
> Do you know what size the Synchronika element is or what rating it is overall?


Grinders with AC motors can draw a lot of startup power. The Niche has a DC motor so draws power in direct proportion to load and not an increased startup draw. WWhen I did my testing (working from memory), with the Mazzer Kony Burrs I don't think it ever draws more than around 145W and usually a bit less. Of course the torque available is still incredibly high because of the slow rotational speed. Very simplistically as well the Niches slow grind speed has other benefits apart from grind quality, static etc and that is the amount of torque produced, which is large, because of torque multiplication through the planetary gearbox and why it doesn't really struggle with any beans. The relatively low power consumption countered by the fact that the "work done" is over a longer period of time. e.g. 130W over 18-20 seconds, is the same amount of power used as a big commercial grinder grinding the same amount of beans in 4 seconds (which might require a 600W motor). The "old give me a lever long enough and I will move the world" scenario.

So the load added by the Niche is negligible and you could run one quite easily of a small car battery and a cheap 200W inverter....probably for 500 or 600 double shots... that's for a 60Ah battery, much more if you used a larger one.

Even this little powerline battery for £39 will give you almost 360 double shot grinds..

https://www.amazon.co.uk/063-Powerline-Car-Battery-12V/dp/B01N39S443/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1547165420&sr=8-3&keywords=car+battery+12v

The big hint here is that if I had a mobile coffee cart....I would probably use a Niche with a small 12V battery and a gas powered lever machine.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Or this for a more serious grinding capacity

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-075-Car-Battery-60ah/dp/B07DY2D2T9/ref=sr_1_13?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1547165604&sr=1-13&keywords=car+battery+12v&refinements=p_36%3A5000-6000

I am surprised no one is used a niche under battery power for a small business venture yet?


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## Aidy (Jul 8, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> I am surprised no one is used a niche under battery power for a small business venture yet?


Kind of a weird direction to take this thread in, but I'll bite.

As you've pointed out, the Niche doesn't really use less energy than any other grinder, it just takes longer to do it. Thus there's no battery life advantage for it - you'd get the same number of shots per charge.

Higher wattage inverters aren't really a lot more expensive, certainly not a big consideration compared to the rest of the gear.

I've got a Niche, and I like it - but if I was intending to serve a stream of customers, I'd go for some sort of hoppered on-demand timed dose thing.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> Or this for a more serious grinding capacity
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-075-Car-Battery-60ah/dp/B07DY2D2T9/ref=sr_1_13?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1547165604&sr=1-13&keywords=car+battery+12v&refinements=p_36%3A5000-6000
> 
> I am surprised no one is used a niche under battery power for a small business venture yet?


I am but currently use it for decaf coffee with my coffee pop-ups. The information from the previous post is fantastic though and exactly what I need to know. I may well be doing events with a small-ish generator where pre-dosing and using the Niche (actually I have two) would be a fantastic option.

I can't thank you enough for this info .


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Gonna have to change your nick to Bravo Two-Zero Joe!

___

Eat, drink and be merry


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Aidy said:


> Kind of a weird direction to take this thread in, but I'll bite.
> 
> 1. As you've pointed out, the Niche doesn't really use less energy than any other grinder, it just takes longer to do it. Thus there's no battery life advantage for it - you'd get the same number of shots per charge.
> 
> ...


Let me clarify and give a bit more info on my thought process.

1. True, but for the same principle a joule thief can seemingly get more power out of a flat battery. It's how it does it. A low draw over a longer time will get more from the LA cell before the inverter shuts down.

2. It's not just about cost, but size as well as efficiency. A small 200W or 300W inverter costs around £25 and the Niche shouldn't need a PSW inverter as it will probably be fine on an MSW one which will use DC battery power more efficiently. AC induction grinders need a much larger inverter and it will have to be PSW. In truth only the grinder and perhaps a flojet style pump would be run on an inverter, the coffee machine itself will have to be gas.

3. I think it would depend on how many Niche grinders/customers you have and whether you want it for single origins, guest beans or just as a beverage adjunct to a popup snack bar.

I'm just pointing out possibilities for use with a battery and where it might be useful.


Brewed coffee classes where hot water is in a flask or can be bought to the location, but no mains power is available

Balance Brewers and Vacuum nrewers using spirit lamps and battery Niche

Education and demonstration

small pop ups

sales, training or demo of your beans, it's often better to grind them on a known grinder, so your potential customer can enjoy them ground correctly on their machine and not tainted by whatever they had in their shop grinder and inconsistent dosing.


e.g. This cheap sealed battery would give 120 double shots or 40 minutes grinding https://www.amazon.co.uk/EVP20-12-18Ah-Sealed-Battery/dp/B01DOAK3P4/ref=sr_1_42?ie=UTF8&qid=1547213421&sr=8-42&keywords=sealed+lead+acid+battery+12v


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

This page may help people get some idea at what discharging at higher currents than indicated by 20hr rate does. ') I'll leave the maths to some one else. Too much water under the bridge since I worked on them but I don't think it's been exaggerated.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/what_is_the_c_rate

This one cycle life according to design

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lead_based_batteries

This sort of battery and leisure batteries are usually designed for neither starting or deep cycling - some way but not very far at all towards the deep cycling end. All car makers usually care about is time at high currents at -40C, sometimes a 3min rating. :Leisure usually just means make that a bit cheaper which oddly enough helps a bit.

John

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