# Balancing profit with greed and stupidity



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I had the pleasure of spending the day in Edinburgh yesterday, around the Royal Mile as we had a Fringe show booked followed by the Edinburgh Tattoo (if you have never been, it is breathtaking). We wanted to fill in an hour or so and sit down to we went to Pizza Express as I have only been there once and know they serve nice thin pizza bases. Anyway, had a good meal but I started off by asking the waiter if they served good coffee. HE grinned and said of course. I have already clocked a LA Cimbali 3 group did U did not know the grinder. It might have been a Ceado, but anyway, he volunteered to grab a bag of beans to show me. He came back with Matthew Algie beans and I said, right, I know where we are then. You reckon you serve good coffee, lets have an espresso. This drink turned up. Very thin, no mouthfeel at all and absolutely no taste and was rank. He asked me how it was and I asked him what he expected me to say. He grinned again and told ne he would not charge me, not that I was bothered about that.

For anyone who wonders what I am rambling on about, Matthew Algie are one of the largest catering equipment lease companies going. They give yu and service the equipment and you are contracted into their beans. The beans re absolute shite and mega expensive, so, if you ever go anywhere and see Matthew Algie beans then you know you have a plce that does not understand coffee, its complexities and how to serve a good drink .....you have been warned!


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

Years ago before I was on this forum and consequent upgrades, I had a classic (still have) and was using Lavazza pre-ground and even then I knew Mathew Algie coffee was shit! (or so as not to offend...not to my liking!)


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Just to balance this post out - not all experiences related to Matthew Algie are as described.

I have tasted their coffee in many locations where it was pleasant and quite drinkable.

I have also judged competitions alongside some of their staff who have also made me lovely coffee from their own stand at tradeshows.

The situation described above always exists where there is transient staff - usually in chains - cafes and restaurants is most common.

Even with great equipment and beans (and sometimes from an enthusiastic member of staff) you can still get served a bad coffee.

Sometimes this is due to greed (profit over preparation) but more often than not it is a lack of willingness on the staff's part.

I have lost count of the people who have told me during a training that they do not even like coffee - yet are front line to the customer and have to make it as part of their job role.

How are you expected to get a good shot when they won't even taste it for calibration purposes?

Try coffee at the source, using the same equipment, and then see where the problem lies. I would wager that more often than not the final product is out of Matthew Algie's hands.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I was doing a pop up in Edinburgh yesterday but you would probably have preferred the Matthew Algie


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

I'm a bit baffled as to why you expected anything better in a chain restaurant?

Pizza Express, like so many other chains, are catering to the needs of the many not the needs of the few. And to the masses, the coffee they serve is perfectly acceptable. If you want something else, you need to go to a place where your needs are catered for.

I hope you managed to find some good coffee, considering there are many speciality coffee shops in Edinburgh.

Edit: although as @jeebsy pointed out, whether they serve the type of coffee you enjoy is another thing entirely.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Lol at:



dfk41 said:


> He grinned again and told ne he would not charge me, not that I was bothered about that.!


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

I never bother with any sort of coffee in these places, especially not espresso. Even very good restaurants who really care about their food, provenance ect, rarely bother to even clean their machines properly so selecting good beans or bad beans is a bit of an irrelevance really and that's even before you start with the training of the staff, who as Glenn says, are often transient and don't even like coffee.

The thing specifically with pizza express though is that around 10 years ago they were a bit of an unsung hero in other area's.

Their house wine for instance was actually ok compared to the joke served up by other chains. It was Italian and a good match for the pizzas and tomato based dishes that dominate their menu. Their ingredients where also of a high quality.

Fast forward 10 years and they now no longer seem to care about anything other than profit. Everything has gone down hill. I'm assuming there was a take over of some sort but I don't know this for a fact.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Let us be quite clear about the point i am making. I am not questioning Matthew Algie or their beans. I am saying, that anyone who pretends to care aboutnthe quality of the produce they sell, is very shortsighted in doing a deal to obtain free gear with a tie in. What happens a month into the contract if you want out because you have seen the light. SO, I said, any business selling MA beans, is probably not going to produce you a decent cuppa.

I was in Pizza Express because we had a wheelchair used and they were not busy, and their pizzas are nice. I did not have any expectations about receiving a quality shot and I was right. If anyone wants tottery it out, it was the branch in Edinburgh where the Royal Mile meets George 4th Bridge


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

It's not Matthew Algie's fault the restaurant didn't make your espresso well. Their beans ain't all that but they're not the worst.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> It's not Matthew Algie's fault the restaurant didn't make your espresso well. Their beans ain't all that but they're not the worst.


I did not blame MA......I made that quite clear. If they are so good, why do you not tie in with them?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I am saying, that anyone who pretends to care aboutnthe quality of the produce they sell, is very shortsighted in doing a deal to obtain free gear with a tie in. What happens a month into the contract if you want out because you have seen the light.


This happens way more than you think, there is a company in Norfolk called freshpac who lease machines with a lock in contract, their commodity coffee is burnt and absolute dreadful and they don't even teach their lessees how to dial in, let alone clean a grinder and machine!

I guess for some independent's they cant afford to outright buy the machine and grinder, or just dont know / care enough about coffee to not go for the cheap option of leased machine locked in with bad roaster. For the chains lets face it it's all about maximising profit and making it easy to have a consistent product, roll out leased machines and cheap beans nationally and reap the savings....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

agree but this place is probably paying £100k rent........are you telling me they think they would not sell more coffee if it was fresh and in the medium term make far more money? Usually if you have that sort of money to invest, then you can see into the future!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I did not blame MA......I made that quite clear. If they are so good, why do you not tie in with them?


I didn't say they were so good - they aren't the worst, but my aspirations lie a bit higher than not being the worst

Their standard issue kit in Glasgow is an Elektra and a Mythos. On the website they have generic espresso roasts and also a 'microlot' section that purports to be higher quality. Several large companies like them do 'cheap shite' and slightly better stuff (not quite speciality quality though) depending what you want to pay a kilo/pitch yourself in the market


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> are you telling me they think they would not sell more coffee if it was fresh and in the medium term make far more money?


 I can't speak specifically about the branch of Pizza Express you went into because I've never been but in general, in that sort of industry, it wouldn't make any difference at all.

If you have good, fresh beans and then give them to someone with a dirty machine and no specific training or even understanding of what good espresso should be the results will be almost indistinguishable from what you received and there's no incentive for the chains to change their ways because the vast majority of their customers are perfectly happy with what they receive.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> agree but this place is probably paying £100k rent........are you telling me they think they would not sell more coffee if it was fresh and in the medium term make far more money? Usually if you have that sort of money to invest, then you can see into the future!


Yep! Its Pizza Express, you are going for a pizza and a beer or glass of wine, the coffee is an after thought. I don't think it would make much difference in the grand scheme of things if they upped the quality of the coffee.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

As maybe, but if it was my branch, I guarantee you that the pizza, the coffee or whatever, would be the best you could get. If that is my ethos, what is theirs?


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> As maybe, but if it was my branch, I guarantee you that the pizza, the coffee or whatever, would be the best you could get. *If that is my ethos, what is theirs?*


Churn out enough to keep making profit.


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

Pizza Express won't be on a coffee / machine contract with Algies, as Algies run with Elektra machines. The Cimbali was probably supplied by Caledonian Catering Equipment a few years ago...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

espressotechno said:


> Pizza Express won't be on a coffee / machine contract with Algies, as Algies run with Elektra machines. The Cimbali was probably supplied by Caledonian Catering Equipment a few years ago...


I cannot comment as it was certainly an older La Cimbali. The grinder looked pretty new but the bag of beans he brought to show me were MA beans. Whether they have a tie to MA on other gear who knows

http://www.matthewalgie.com/coffee/espresso/

Looking at their website, it was none the coffees on here. Looking at the Pizza Express menu, this is what they claim

Organic Coffee

Our unique, triple certified blend; organic, Fairtrade and Rainforest Alliance with beans from Ethiopia, Honduras and Peru. All of our coffees are also available decaffeinated


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

espressotechno said:


> Pizza Express won't be on a coffee / machine contract with Algies, as Algies run with Elektra machines. The Cimbali was probably supplied by Caledonian Catering Equipment a few years ago...


They seem to offer a wider range than just `elektra, same with grinders

http://www.matthewalgie.com/machines/traditional-machines/


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## scottomus (Aug 13, 2014)

Matthew algie supply to M&S, they use Faema machines and mythis one grinders. Great kit.

Also so they have their own blend for them. 100% Arabica from Honduras, peru, samartra and Ethiopia. Much better than their generic 'tiki' blend.

they are great people in Matthew alike from my experience.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

scottomus said:


> Matthew algie supply to M&S, they use Faema machines and mythis one grinders. Great kit.
> 
> Also so they have their own blend for them. 100% Arabica from Honduras, peru, samartra and Ethiopia. Much better than their generic 'tiki' blend.
> 
> they are great people in Matthew alike from my experience.


Its where the line between commodity and speciality comes into play again...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Right, confession time! I was in another place today (The Biscuit Factory, Newcastle), that had exactly the same set up as I saw in Edinburgh. It is a Casadio machine and grinder and was supplied through Ringtons. Even more odd then, buying MA beans! I recognised the grinder immediately, then when I stood at a certain angle I coulees the 'C' on the from of the machine which I took to be La Cimbali....


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Great thread!


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> I was doing a pop up in Edinburgh yesterday but you would probably have preferred the Matthew Algie


http://i.imgur.com/NFBRRiI.gif


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## Chockymonster (Jan 21, 2013)

Every person serving coffee at a PE is trained., either by MA or someone onsite. They should know how to clean the machines and dial in their grinder. I've done the MA training, it's basic but gives them everything they need to make a semi decent cup.

The beans are the limiting factor though, I've done my best to make a decent shot but I've given up trying to have it with anything other than milk.

I'm assuming this is what you were shown??


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Chockymonster said:


> Every person serving coffee at a PE is trained., either by MA or someone onsite. They should know how to clean the machines and dial in their grinder. I've done the MA training, it's basic but gives them everything they need to make a semi decent cup.
> 
> The beans are the limiting factor though, I've done my best to make a decent shot but I've given up trying to have it with anything other than milk.
> 
> I'm assuming this is what you were shown??


It may well have been that cocky......I did not take that much notice of the variety once I saw the MA bit!


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## Chockymonster (Jan 21, 2013)

That's what we have in the kitchen at head office. MA just installed a two group Elektra and a Super Jolly for us to use. It's taken 2 years of whinging to get that far! For most the coffee tastes great, I don't like it. It's over roasted and always ashy. But I'm not the typical PizzaExpress coffee drinker, no one on this site is.

There is little point trying a coffee in any chain restaurant because it isn't in the ball park of speciality coffee.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I work for a chain of hotels in the UK and sadly we use Matthew algie. As you've already eluded to, I treat any Matthew algie sign as a good indicator of where not to go. Smokey, burned, fish oil smelly beans that don't belong anywhere near a coffee machine. Their training is laughable at best and ive often watched their trainer in the hotels show staff what to do, as if he had absolutely any idea.

I've tried to talk the powers that be out of it. And even got as far as submitting a list of appropriate suppliers, but sadly they stuck with what they knew. Very sad, given all the hotels have nice machines. One even sporting a LM GB5


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

Casadio is an economy brand of Cimbali - quite good build quality but not as good as Cimbali. They use an E61 variant group head.

Was In PE on North Bridge Edinburgh on Sunday: Espresso was good: Decent crema, good flavour & decent volume (not ristretto size).


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