# ECM Giotto, no steam/hot water



## iceaway (Feb 9, 2021)

Hi all,

New member from Sweden here, just starting out my espresso journey. I could probably have had a better start, as I invested in a used ECM Giotto anno 2000 that unfortunately does not work properly. My issue is that I am not getting anything from the steam wand or hot water tap. The machine warms up just fine and I get hot water flowing through the group head when I pull the lever. The boiler pressure gauge shows the pressure moving between about 0.8 bars och 1.3 bars. On a couple of occasions I have managed to get some steam/water from the steam wand and hot water tap, but mostly nothing happens when I open the valves. The steam seemed quite weak, and the hot water was flowing very slowly. I removed the steam wand/water tap and let them soak in a bath of citric acid, and tried to scrub the worst scaling off. After this, I could blow air through both valves, so at least there is not a complete blockage there. I then opened both valves (with everything assembled again) and tried blowing air through both the steam wand and the hot water tap, but I was not able to get anything through.

I was hoping to be brewing espresso and steaming milk at this point, not picking the machine apart to bits, but at least it's quite interesting. I am thinking about the next step to take; Is it time to take it further apart and remove the connection to the boiler from the steam wand/hot water tap, and look for blockages there? Is there anything else I could try before disassembling it further?

Thanks,
Pelle


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@iceaway - welcome to the forum. From what you describe, the machine is getting up to pressure, hot water is coming out of the group (assuming so, but you don't say explicitly).

No water comes out of the hot water, which is drawn from the bottom of the boiler, and no steam comes out of the steam wand, which comes from the top of the boiler.

Let's stick to the hot water tap. If you remove the wand by unscrewing the nut from the tap, does water come out?

if it doesn't, there might be a blockage. I think the easiest thing to do would be to descale the machine. Who knows what the boiler is like inside, let alone the pipe work.


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## iceaway (Feb 9, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @iceaway - welcome to the forum. From what you describe, the machine is getting up to pressure, hot water is coming out of the group (assuming so, but you don't say explicitly).
> 
> No water comes out of the hot water, which is drawn from the bottom of the boiler, and no steam comes out of the steam wand, which comes from the top of the boiler.
> 
> ...


 Yes correct, I do get hot water from the group, about 90 degrees, so it seems alright.

I will have another go at trying to locate the blockage in the pipework. By the "nut from the tap", do you mean the filter-like thing that is attached to the end of the tap? I did remove that and check for blockage, it was alright. Descaling is on the top of my list, but it's a bit hard to get the descaler into and out of the boiler when I am not able to draw any water from it (only the HX-path for the group seems to be working). I will try to run a piece of wire or similar through the pipework from the water tap (after the valve of course) and see if it appears to jam somewhere before the boiler. I think I will try to remove the over pressure valve or the vacuum breaker from the top of the boiler and see if I can have a peek inside, if it looks horrible I might just remove the whole thing and descale it away from the machine (never disassembled an espresso machine before, so that should be interesting).


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

I think MRS is referring to releasing the nuts which hold the steam and water arms to the valves (at the swivel point). These will be spring loaded to permit the movement. Hold the pipe and push up vertically as you release the nut (s), lower from the valve (tap) collecting the spring and small swivel cup.

Remove the steam / water valve taps and dismantle the internal components, check that the seals have not been crushed /displaced / broken.


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## iceaway (Feb 9, 2021)

I understand. I have an older Giotto model where the knobs for the valves are not connected externally to the steam/water taps, but they come out from two different holes in the front panel. I did remove both valves and tested them by blowing air through them, and they worked fine to turn on/off, although I'm not sure how much resistance there should be.

I can't seem to include images for some reason, tried to insert one to show the placement of the valve/wand


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

iceaway said:


> I understand. I have an older Giotto model where the knobs for the valves are not connected externally to the steam/water taps, but they come out from two different holes in the front panel. I did remove both valves and tested them by blowing air through them, and they worked fine to turn on/off, although I'm not sure how much resistance there should be.
> 
> I can't seem to include images for some reason, tried to insert one to show the placement of the valve/wand


 Try putting image on desktop then drag and drop to post on forum.


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## iceaway (Feb 9, 2021)

El carajillo said:


> Try putting image on desktop then drag and drop to post on forum.


 Adding it to the gallery first worked. Sorry about the size!





  








IMG_20210208_195523.jpg




__
iceaway


__
Feb 9, 2021


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

I see what you mean. The steam / water wand should be removable from the front, you may need to hold the thin locknut on the face of the machine

(you could try just releasing the retaining nut first BUT the locknut may rotate with it. In which case you will need to hold the nut inside the machine.

REF the tap, you will need to hold the nut / fitting behind the tap inside. Check for any seals as you unscrew the tap.


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## iceaway (Feb 9, 2021)

I made some more checks today to find any possible blockage in the pipework, and took apart all the plumbing from steam wand to boiler but found nothing blocking the path. I assembled everything again and now I could force water out of the water tap by blowing into the steam wand, so it seems that the path is relatively clear.

So i tried starting the machine again, but I left the steam valve open, and voila, as the pressure built up steam came out of the wand! But when I closed it, I could not get any more steam despite opening the valve completely.

Could there be something jamming the valve as it becomes hot? I completely disassembled both valves and they are resting in a citric acid bath at the moment. No idea what the valve inside should look like, but inserting a picture here for reference. The white plastic-like stuff on the steam valve had disintegrated a bit so i could peel off the outermost part.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

It looks like you need some new 'O' rings for the valve stem seals and teflon seals for the ends of the valve stems.

The white substance on the stems is food safe silicone grease. Look up 'MOLYCOTE 111' or equivalent.


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## iceaway (Feb 9, 2021)

El carajillo said:


> It looks like you need some new 'O' rings for the valve stem seals and teflon seals for the ends of the valve stems.
> 
> The white substance on the stems is food safe silicone grease. Look up 'MOLYCOTE 111' or equivalent.


 Yeah, thanks. I think I will order new stems altogether if I can source them. The end teflon seal looks a bit weird with that big bump in it, if I look at a spare part it looks like it should be flat (steam valve stem). The part where the end seal sit on one of the valve stems also has small cracks in it and it looks like it has expanded a bit. I wonder if the valves have been screwed on way too tight by previous owner, thus damaging them? The entire teflon part was loose and would come off quite easily on the steam valve, so I'm thinking that maybe it stuck to the valve opening and stayed there as I tried opening the valve, blocking it completely.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Over tightening valves is very common and the damage you can see results. A good call to replace the valve stem particularly if the metal has cracked / spread.

The stem seals should be flat. Also check valve seat for damage.


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## iceaway (Feb 9, 2021)

El carajillo said:


> Over tightening valves is very common and the damage you can see results. A good call to replace the valve stem particularly if the metal has cracked / spread.
> 
> The stem seals should be flat. Also check valve seat for damage.


 It's sooo hard to see the condition of the valve seats, pretty far down that narrow tube. Since they managed to seal properly, I hope they are in good condition and will replace them if they start leaking once the new stems are installed.


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## yorkel505 (Feb 26, 2015)

Hi iceaway, could you please let me know if you manage to find replacement stem and O rings? I Have the same machine but I have been struggling to find a parts list due to the age


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Look up D.R tradingshop.nl (or VB) they appear to have the steam & water valve spindles (they appear same type but check shaft dimensions/ 'O' ring positions


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## iceaway (Feb 9, 2021)

yorkel505 said:


> Hi iceaway, could you please let me know if you manage to find replacement stem and O rings? I Have the same machine but I have been struggling to find a parts list due to the age


 Hi,

I'm from Sweden and was able to source the parts from a local shop. I actually ended up buying two complete valve assemblies, as they had them in stock, but it was possible to order only the valve stems/o-rings if I wanted to (I did not want to wait two weeks...). The shop is https://www.kaffecompagniet.se/, but I doubt they ship internationally unfortunately.

According to the previous poster, this is probably what you want:
https://www.drtradingshop.nl/en_GB/a-39674435/spare-parts-ecm/spindle-steam-water-tap-ecm-rocket/#description
https://www.drtradingshop.nl/en_GB/a-39488059/spare-parts-ecm/o-ring-spindle-steam-watertap-ecm-mk-1-set-of-2/#description


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## iceaway (Feb 9, 2021)

To follow up on this story, I received and installed the new valves yesterday and now the steam works perfectly!

The hot water is still not working properly though. It tends to work for a while, then it seems to clog. Then I can blow into the tap to clear it, it works for a while, then it becomes clogged again. Must be some junk in the boiler. Next project will be to remove the boiler and clean it away from the machine.


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