# Second hand machine options in the £1000-1500 range



## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

So the Oracle experience didn't last long/go well as it seems it was faulty, so for a few reasons I have chosen to take a refund and begin searching for a manual machine. I have backed the Niche Zero so my plan is to research and source a good second hand machine to pair with that when it is released. I have plenty of time but want to make sure I do my research and don't buy the wrong thing.

So far I've only looked at Rocket machines (online not in person) and really like the R58. A dual boiler would be my preference and they are within budget for a well looked after second hand one.

My question is what other manufacturers and models should I be looking at that fit the dual boiler and budget requirements? It's a bit of a minefield for somebody not massively experienced so any guidance would as always be much appreciated. TIA


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Not dual boiler but have you considered an L1 ? This would be in your budget if one came up for sale

Theyre not for everyone but worth adding to the list


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

working dog said:


> Not dual boiler but have you considered an L1 ? This would be in your budget if one came up for sale
> 
> Theyre not for everyone but worth adding to the list


I hadn't to be honest. I sort of assumed a lever might be beyond my skill level! I know nothing about them and have never seen or used one. I think the learning curve for something like an R58 will be pretty steep, would a lever be harder?


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

GingerBen said:


> I hadn't to be honest. I sort of assumed a lever might be beyond my skill level! I know nothing about them and have never seen or used one. I think the learning curve for something like an R58 will be pretty steep, would a lever be harder?


A lever isn't harder, its just different.

For the first few shots you are all fingers and thumbs. Then it clicks. The biggest difference is that you pull the cup away when your desired weight is reached, rather than moving the switch/lever back on a pumped machine. Theres no voodoo magic going on and its easier to get a good shot from an L1 than it is with a budget machine


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

working dog said:


> A lever isn't harder, its just different.
> 
> For the first few shots you are all fingers and thumbs. Then it clicks. The biggest difference is that you pull the cup away when your desired weight is reached, rather than moving the switch/lever back on a pumped machine. Theres no voodoo magic going on and its easier to get a good shot from an L1 than it is with a budget machine


Ok, thanks. I'd probably have to find a way to have a go on one to see if it was for me or not. I'll consider it though should the opportunity arise.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

I'm to wondering where you can sample a lever, It's not like BB where you can go try your Machine DavecUK is and will be selling some 2K machines very soon Vesuvius ones.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Best way to try a lever is to ask for a local lever owner who is willing to let you have a play. This way youre not in a shop environment and don't feel obliged to buy. The only down side is that you cant (in most cases) sample side by side with a pump machine.

The other option is at a forum day where there tends to be an L1.


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## wilse (Nov 14, 2013)

What about Expobar Leva?

You can pick these up cheaper (usually.) I've been really impressed with mine, double boiler, good steaming power, consistent brews, drip tray big enough to swim in (nearly) and so far problem free. Thumbs up from me.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

an oracle would suggest that you do not want hands on.....a lever can be more hands on than a pump......a pump is basically easy as anything once you have the shot parameters right. get them wrong though or do hot have the knowledge/field craft skills then it does not matter what you make your coffee on it will be crap! people think somehow an R58 makes a better cuppa than an Expobar leva....it does not. put an idiot in a Porsche and it does not make him a racing driver!


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> an oracle would suggest that you do not want hands on.....a lever can be more hands on than a pump......a pump is basically easy as anything once you have the shot parameters right. get them wrong though or do hot have the knowledge/field craft skills then it does not matter what you make your coffee on it will be crap! people think somehow an R58 makes a better cuppa than an Expobar leva....it does not. put an idiot in a Porsche and it does not make him a racing driver!


yep that's fair comment. I didn't think I wanted hands on so went for the oracle but it didn't work so rather than get a replacement I've decided to go down the more traditional route. I'm not skilled with espresso yet so the learning curve will be steep whatever I choose. I'm aware of that.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> yep that's fair comment. I didn't think I wanted hands on so went for the oracle but it didn't work so rather than get a replacement I've decided to go down the more traditional route. I'm not skilled with espresso yet so the learning curve will be steep whatever I choose. I'm aware of that.


There was no criticism at all. A lot of people do not get it....a skilled person can make a really decent cuppa on a Gaggia Classic.....the machine is almost irrelevant. After you get over the bigger knob contest, what is it all about? I have always been a traditionalist, swopping from pumps to Londinium when they first came out. Now, I love levers but the world does not stop there for me, anyway! I have had plenty of pumps machines

Expobar Leva

GS3

Orchestrale Nota

Sage DB

Profitec P700

Vesuvius

and probably loads more and the easiest of them all, is the Sage dual boiler. it has more bells and whistles than most machines meaning you can play around whilst producing a really competent cuppa. I have one currently, paired to a Compak E5 and for a set up costing well under 2k, I would like to see a better one suggested. I grant you, the sage has question marks over longevity, but get lakeland to price match whoever is offering the cheapest deal and you get a good 3 year warranty


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Have a look at the ECM machines Ben - beautifully made and a real pleasure to own


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> There was no criticism at all. A lot of people do not get it....a skilled person can make a really decent cuppa on a Gaggia Classic.....the machine is almost irrelevant. After you get over the bigger knob contest, what is it all about? I have always been a traditionalist, swopping from pumps to Londinium when they first came out. Now, I love levers but the world does not stop there for me, anyway! I have had plenty of pumps machines
> 
> Expobar Leva
> 
> ...


thanks that's good info. The sage does look a good machine and a friend has one so I could potentially look closer at that easily. I am slightly wary of sage now though having had a couple of their products and not being happy. This could of course be my fault!! 

its definitely one to consider


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## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

Last year at the London Coffee festival Sage were offering their Dual Boiler at a show price of £600 incl vat. Don't know if they will repeat it but worth thinking about if you are in the market for one. I very nearly bought one but longevity concerns put me off and I plumped for an L1 in the end. This was straight from a Gaggia Classic which I had for many years. The machine is fantastic to use and not much of a learning curve. As has been said a Classic can make great shots on a par with an L1 or other high end machine, but the benefit you get from the expense of upgrading is more consistency so more chance of getting a good shot.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Jollybean said:


> Last year at the London Coffee festival Sage were offering their Dual Boiler at a show price of £600 incl vat. Don't know if they will repeat it but worth thinking about if you are in the market for one. I very nearly bought one but longevity concerns put me off and I plumped for an L1 in the end. This was straight from a Gaggia Classic which I had for many years. The machine is fantastic to use and not much of a learning curve. As has been said a Classic can make great shots on a par with an L1 or other high end machine, but the benefit you get from the expense of upgrading is more consistency so more chance of getting a good shot.


wow that's a great price, I'd be tempted at that sort of money. The L1's look phenomenal and seem very well loved by their owners, I shall do some reading up!


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> Have a look at the ECM machines Ben - beautifully made and a real pleasure to own


Will do, thanks.


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

I'm in a similar place to you in that I'm thinking about upgrading from a Sage machine. So, I'm not claiming experience of the machines I mention below, but after a bit of research these are the ones I'm interested in. Regarding the discussion about how hands on you want to be, I kinda think it could take years to become an excellent espresso maker, but it should only take a few weeks or less to know the basics and be able to produce a competent cup. After that, the journey should be very rewarding, in discovering beans of the world and developing the skills to get the best out of them.

Anyway, in terms of buying a machine, I don't want to take a step by step approach and lose money each time I upgrade. So, I think I'll shoot for the stars (life's too short,etc!). I like the look of:

- ECM Synchronika (or a lesser spec'ed model of theirs). I like the look of their German engineering. If they're anything like their cars, that's good enough for me.

- Vesuvius seems to me to have the ultimate in terms of being able to adjust the parameters (pressure particularly). You don't have to tinker with the parameters until you're ready, but you have that flexibility.

- Londinium R is probably the winner for me. Its owners won't hear a word against it. The engineering looks superb, and there is less electronics to potentially fail some day down the line. It has that cache about it which just makes it highly desirable.

Admittedly, I need to experience one or more of these machines to make the choice. (Oh yes, and then you need a great grinder to pair it with - Monolith Titan?)


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

so 4k then^


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

I know it's not what you've asked but... have you thought about getting a Gaggia Classic for a year or two while getting your head around espresso?

I've just fitted a pid on mine and adjusted the pressure and it's really pulling some excellent shots.

I only mention it as you could pick one up on the forum (with mods already done if that's not your bag, all very easy to do though) then sell it on again if/when you want to upgrade. I doubt you'd lose more than fifty quid.

Also means you can get yourself a really sweet grinder....


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

wilse said:


> What about Expobar Leva?
> 
> You can pick these up cheaper (usually.) I've been really impressed with mine, double boiler, good steaming power, consistent brews, drip tray big enough to swim in (nearly) and so far problem free. Thumbs up from me.


JUst had a look on BB and they are certainly attractive price wise as could buy new with warranty etc.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Jon_Foster said:


> I know it's not what you've asked but... have you thought about getting a Gaggia Classic for a year or two while getting your head around espresso?
> 
> I've just fitted a pid on mine and adjusted the pressure and it's really pulling some excellent shots.
> 
> ...


I had one for a while paired with a Sage Smart Grinder Pro. I sold them as wanted to focus on filter coffee for a few reasons. Now I want to get back to espresso again and with the Niche ordered I don't need to worry about a grinder so I'm looking for a machine that I'll be happy with for a decent amount of time.


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

Jony said:


> so 4k then^


Oops always miss something! A small matter of the headline budget of £1000 - £1500 - but you could just about get an ECM model and a second hand grinder - maybe?


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Banjoman said:


> I'm in a similar place to you in that I'm thinking about upgrading from a Sage machine. So, I'm not claiming experience of the machines I mention below, but after a bit of research these are the ones I'm interested in. Regarding the discussion about how hands on you want to be, I kinda think it could take years to become an excellent espresso maker, but it should only take a few weeks or less to know the basics and be able to produce a competent cup. After that, the journey should be very rewarding, in discovering beans of the world and developing the skills to get the best out of them.
> 
> Anyway, in terms of buying a machine, I don't want to take a step by step approach and lose money each time I upgrade. So, I think I'll shoot for the stars (life's too short,etc!). I like the look of:
> 
> ...


That's a good list but out of my budget sadly. I saw the vesuvius machines that went on here recently and I see some more are due but £2k is too much of a stretch for me. I'm happy in the £1-1.5k range.


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

GingerBen said:


> I had one for a while paired with a Sage Smart Grinder Pro. I sold them as wanted to focus on filter coffee for a few reasons. Now I want to get back to espresso again and with the Niche ordered I don't need to worry about a grinder so I'm looking for a machine that I'll be happy with for a decent amount of time.


Aah fair enough man, I've got to say I'm super tempted by a niche... currently weighing up whether to wait for the release to see what people think or just go for it at the crowdfunding price...


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Jon_Foster said:


> Aah fair enough man, I've got to say I'm super tempted by a niche... currently weighing up whether to wait for the release to see what people think or just go for it at the crowdfunding price...


They do look like they are going to be amazing value for money tbh. Only time will tell though I suppose!


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Part of me is also tempted to just buy a new Rocket Mozzafiato when the Niche turns up because they look so nice lol


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

I think a second hand spring lever would suit you..the learning curve is steep with any machine but once you master it, a lever is very simple to use with great results


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What didn't work with the oracle?


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> What didn't work with the oracle?


It kept tamping badly i.e. loose lumpy pucks and was very inconsistent when it did work. 50% change in yield between shots without changing anything. Seemed to be happy with darker roasted beans but had issues with lighter ones, not sure why.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

I think your on the money with a Rocket Giotto/Mozzafiato, at £1350 I dont think there is a lot better, however-not at all* biased* but the Fracino Classico I think, is a steal at £850-900 built in Birmingham, with easy access to parts and looks good too.

*probably slightly


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If I was buying a new machine again, and did not have specific needs that link me to the Sage, I would buy an Orchestrale Nota.....have had one before and they are absolutely brilliant in every way. Forget the HX badge. regardless of machine I always flush 40 mls or so, be that right or wrong. these are beautiful, well made and use commercial parts and loads of combinations of coloured panels etc. Watch the Youtube clip for evidence

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/orchestrale-nota-espresso-machine-1grp.html


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

*Orchestrale Nota*-What a machine that is


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

KTD said:


> *Orchestrale Nota*-What a machine that is


looks a beast. If I saw a second hand one it would be tempting


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

KTD said:


> I think your on the money with a Rocket Giotto/Mozzafiato, at £1350 I dont think there is a lot better, however-not at all* biased* but the Fracino Classico I think, is a steal at £850-900 built in Birmingham, with easy access to parts and looks good too.
> 
> *probably slightly


This is what I thought originally when researching my next machine.

But ECM machines seem to beat them in every way possible bar maybe looks. Better construction, better laid out internals, better components. I'm strongly considering an ECM Technika Profi or a second hand dual boiler if it comes up.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

ATZ said:


> This is what I thought originally when researching my next machine.
> 
> But ECM machines seem to beat them in every way possible bar maybe looks. Better construction, better laid out internals, better components. I'm strongly considering an ECM Technika Profi or a second hand dual boiler if it comes up.


I like ECM's, to be honest any machine with that classic look I find myself wanting 

How much do technika's go for? I quite like the expobar leva dual boiler think they are 1250


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

KTD said:


> I like ECM's, to be honest any machine with that classic look I find myself wanting
> 
> How much do technika's go for? I quite like the expobar leva dual boiler think they are 1250


Think expo bar DB is now more than that - was looking this morning and think now £1,600 with PID.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

rob177palmer said:


> Think expo bar DB is now more than that - was looking this morning and think now £1,600 with PID.


Ah didn't realise it was oos at bb, thought that looked cheap!


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

KTD said:


> Ah didn't realise it was oos at bb, thought that looked cheap!


Yes - I keep thinking the same. Machina were much more than that price.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Looks like I'm tracking the same sort of machines as you.

I'm thinking DB aid possible - I would much prefer to HX.

I have PID on Gaggia and like it. I would like a PID again.

I'm thinking:

Vibiemme Junior 2B is the best cheap option.

Expobar DB is next, but £1,600 or so.

At that price I prefer the look of the Vibiemme Super 2B PID.

It seems to be a tricky price point where you can ALMOST have all that you want....


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

rob177palmer said:


> Looks like I'm tracking the same sort of machines as you.
> 
> I'm thinking DB aid possible - I would much prefer to HX.
> 
> ...


The more I've been looking the more I'm thinking higher end hx would actually be better than a dB for me. Sure a dB is great but is the extra £ actually worth it over a few drinks a day? Hx with pid ticks a lot of boxes. I must confess to being somebody to whom looks are important with this sort of thing hence my initial leaning towards rockets. They are just awesome. Have you seen B.B. have an ex demo Verona in their offers section for £1250? It's not for me but worth a look maybe?


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

In all these times lurking on the B.B. website, I had never spotted that deals section!

Lovely looking machine...!


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

rob177palmer said:


> In all these times lurking on the B.B. website, I had never spotted that deals section!
> 
> Lovely looking machine...!


Its meant to be amazing too. I'm put off by short warranty but it's tempting


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Hmm. Hadn't been on my radar as the full price is above my budget.

Presumably no PID, as the new "2017" model is priced higher and explicitly includes one.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

rob177palmer said:


> Hmm. Hadn't been on my radar as the full price is above my budget.
> 
> Presumably no PID, as the new "2017" model is priced higher and explicitly includes one.


I'm pretty certain it is pid. Not sure what the 2017 model adds but afaik the Verona was designed by B.B. with the input of @DavecUK to be the bees knees.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Hmm, positive chat like that isn't helping me to discount it!!


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

rob177palmer said:


> Hmm, positive chat like that isn't helping me to discount it!!


Haha I'm pretty sure I've seen talk on here that they aren't going to stock them anymore so that one is the last one they will have I guess. Pretty sure it is the 2017 one they give details on


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Shame if they do stop - that really looks a lovely machine.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I agree a top end HX would make a lovely machine Ben.... don't worry about it having a PID though, it's a bit of gimic on a HX and IMO better off with a more traditional pstat


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> I agree a top end HX would make a lovely machine Ben.... don't worry about it having a PID though, it's a bit of gimic on a HX and IMO better off with a more traditional pstat


is that because you have to flush the group first anyway so makes the pid a bit redundant? Looking at the rocket mozzafiato it has a pid and seems a great machine. Having said that the appartamento also looks good and is £400 cheaper more or less. So confusing!


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

GingerBen said:


> Having said that the appartamento also looks good and is £400 cheaper more or less. So confusing!


That's the machine I started lusting after. But most of the comments seem to suggest is under-specc'd - not even insulated boiler etc.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Yeah that's right. The pid would control the single (steam) boiler and this only has an indirect affect on brew temp because of various factors - mainly flush as u say.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Not sure what your usage profile is but have you looked at profitec 300? Look a great machine and some owners starting to appear in here now. You budget would get new


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> Not sure what your usage profile is but have you looked at profitec 300? Look a great machine and some owners starting to appear in here now. You budget would get new


no i'll Have a look cheers


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## db8000 (Dec 6, 2017)

I've been to BB and seen the Verona. Nowt wrong with it. It's their ex staff machine. They also had a second nearly new Verona with 18months warranty iirc.

at under 1500 about the best I've seen.


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## db8000 (Dec 6, 2017)

I also wonder whether a PID on a HX machine is much use. For the steaming function I imagine a few degrees here or there makes little difference. Since the brew water is indirectly heated, again does the exact temp of the boiler help? Just wondering out loud!


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Some great chat in my thread here about the Verona, Lelit Mara and a few choice others

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?40294-Best-machines-for-%A31000


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

ATZ said:


> Some great chat in my thread here about the Verona, Lelit Mara and a few choice others
> 
> https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?40294-Best-machines-for-%A31000


excellent info in there. Thanks for highlighting. That Verona is tempting....can I get a second hand grinderto go with it that I can flip when the Niche arrives? That's the $1m question


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Maybe a second hand Mazzer


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Agree - second hand SJ for £200 and sell for the same when Niche arrives. All in under £1,500 with money spare to treat your significant other to a meal to apologise / explain your purchase!


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## db8000 (Dec 6, 2017)

The Niche may yet be delayed (or worse). I don't suppose many kickstarters arrive on time. Get a grinder you'd be happy with for longer I think. I got a Mignon as a stop gap to the niche.

BB do a 3% discount if u buy a machine and grinder - applying the discount to both. I don't know if it applies to the sale stock.

i bet I'll never get round to selling the Mignon because the prices will drop when the niche comes out and I'll get used to having two grinders, one for French press!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

db8000 said:


> The Niche may yet be delayed (or worse). I don't suppose many kickstarters arrive on time. Get a grinder you'd be happy with for longer I think. I got a Mignon as a stop gap to the niche.
> 
> BB do a 3% discount if u buy a machine and grinder - applying the discount to both. I don't know if it applies to the sale stock.
> 
> i bet I'll never get round to selling the Mignon because the prices will drop when the niche comes out and I'll get used to having two grinders, one for French press!


Wrong on every count! The Niche is on time for June, as Martin, their CEO confirmed to me in writing a couple of weeks ago and I posted here. The Niche will be £500 plus, not at the level it can currently be bought for which is getting on for twice the price of a basic Mignon. This will simply put it out of range for some. The Mignon price will not drop because of the Niche......why should it?


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

So tempted to order the niche at 405, I can't seem to see what kind of warranty it will ship with, is it a standard 1 year warranty?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

KTD said:


> So tempted to order the niche at 405, I can't seem to see what kind of warranty it will ship with, is it a standard 1 year warranty?


It has to have at least that but I do not know if it is one or two years. Go to their website and email them and post back


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

You lot are a bad influence!









id just decided to park the machine until the Niche turns up as ultimately I'm in no rush and I want to make sure I buy right. Gives me more time to save up too


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## db8000 (Dec 6, 2017)

@dfk41 i'm very happy to be absolutely wrong on the Niche, I've backed it. I also know that these things slip. If i'm "wrong on every count" then I reserve the right to say 'I told you so' on 1 July.









On the second hand market, I just think that there is a chance that prices for other machines in the same ball-park might get a bit soft after the Niche comes out. If it is so much better than the competition, for "only" a couple of hundred quid more than the Mignon and co then it looks tempting proposition. Secondly if there is a rush of upgrades from current Mignon owners to the Niche, then there may be more available - becoming a buyers' market not a sellers.


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> It has to have at least that but I do not know if it is one or two years. Go to their website and email them and post back


I'm thinking of grabbing one at 405 as well so I emailed them yesterday to ask about the warranty & also if there had been any changes in spec/parts since DaveC's review.

I'll post back any response


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

So I seem to be suffering from 'Rocket Vision' which I hear can be hard to cure. With that in mind my options when the time comes seem to be an Appartamento (would buy new) or wait for a good second hand R58. I know they are opposite ends of their range but if a PID on a hx is pretty much a gimmick then the mid range rockets are more money for not much else performance wise than the appartamento, smaller boiler, bit less power etc. I'm the only coffee drinker in the house so making multiple drinks will be a rarity rather than the norm. A good used R58 would be ideal as offers more future proofing I suppose and the DB element of course. Hmm


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Buying new obviously has its benefits if you can afford the machine you want, I think that's what I'd do. I bought second hand because the machine I wanted was more than I was willing to spend. The only thing I'd try and sell that the rocket doesn't have is a lever for steam, if you drink a lot of milk drinks it makes it much easier. Hey the good thing about rocket vision is at least at the end of it you end up with a good machine that looks good aswell!


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Have heard lots of praise from apartamento owners


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> It has to have at least that but I do not know if it is one or two years. Go to their website and email them and post back


Emailed immediately after you posted this and haven't had a response, while it's not surprising as only been a couple of days not getting a response has stopped me ordering, I know if it was my project I'd be all over it and seems like there's enough people involved in it to have somebody dedicated to responding to simple emails.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Well, by law it has to have 12 months and if they comply with EE law, 24 months.....do not know why this issue is stopping you from buying......hundreds of others have not seen this as a problem! A grinder has very few parts to go wrong


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Well, by law it has to have 12 months and if they comply with EE law, 24 months.....do not know why this issue is stopping you from buying......hundreds of others have not seen this as a problem! A grinder has very few parts to go wrong


Probably more worrying because it's new product with deadlines to meet, if there happens to be a model wide issue it would need addressing, I want the preorder price so obviously a risk I'll have to ignore!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

KTD said:


> Probably more worrying because it's new product with deadlines to meet, if there happens to be a model wide issue it would need addressing, I want the preorder price so obviously a risk I'll have to ignore!


The grinder has been in testing for 3 to 4 years now.....truly, there is so little to go wrong with these, plus, DAveC had a brief two week look so it is unlikely that any/many design faults escaped, plus you have to remember the pedigree of Kenwood!


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> The grinder has been in testing for 3 to 4 years now.....truly, there is so little to go wrong with these, plus, DAveC had a brief two week look so it is unlikely that any/many design faults escaped, plus you have to remember the pedigree of Kenwood!


James Wise has been using one for a little while too and is impressed apparently so I suspect their profile is going to be pretty high when it's released which will be good. Looking forward to mine arriving.


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## BWD (Feb 11, 2018)

Sage DBs seem to be popular and fit your price bracket


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

BWD said:


> Sage DBs seem to be popular and fit your price bracket


they do, however I'm not going down the sage route again.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

The VBMs look lovely machines. The Super looks like a tick-box exercise in "what would you ideally want in a coffee machine"


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

GingerBen said:


> thanks. Let me have a look and get back to you. I'm hoping I've got something lined up but it's worth checking out other things just in case.


Hang and buy one of the ex exhibition Vesuvius machine that will shortly be coming on here (days) for an astounding price, more than your budget, but well worth the stretch at pretty much a factory gate price, or the same as the retailers pay..


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> Hang and buy one of the ex exhibition Vesuvius machine that will shortly be coming on here (days) for an astounding price, more than your budget, but well worth the stretch at pretty much a factory gate price, or the same as the retailers pay..


Haha as if he isn't confused enough..people offering him dream machines from all angles


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Jesus don't tell everyone Noir is looking good


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> Hang and buy one of the ex exhibition Vesuvius machine that will shortly be coming on here (days) for an astounding price, more than your budget, but well worth the stretch at pretty much a factory gate price, or the same as the retailers pay..


cant do it sadly. Believe me I've been chewing it over


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Well you know where there is a not well DB offer up young man,haha


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

I do yes. As mentioned I'm hoping I've got something sorted more along the lines of what I'm after but time will tell.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

oohhh a nice Rocket


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

So following in this thread has proven expensive.

Running through the options for @GingerBen, I seem to have slipped and accidentally bought myself a Quick Mill Veloce.

Very pleased so far and excited to learn a new machine. Hope your new Rocket (??!!) materialises soon!


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

rob177palmer said:


> So following in this thread has proven expensive.
> 
> Running through the options for @GingerBen, I seem to have slipped and accidentally bought myself a Quick Mill Veloce.
> 
> Very pleased so far and excited to learn a new machine. Hope your new Rocket (??!!) materialises soon!


very curious to hear about your user experiences with the Veloce


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Yes - a big change for me. I blame the last Rave forum day for piquing my curiosity over levers. Somehow having loads of Londinium levers and loads of dialled in insanely expensive grinders everywhere you look made the process of making incredible espresso very easy!!

Spent an afternoon dialling in my Ceado with an unfamiliar decaf single origin. Was nice and better texture than from my classic but can't yet manage the luxurious tasting perfect shot. Will try again with my usual beans tomorrow to see what comes out.

So far so good though!


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

rob177palmer said:


> Yes - a big change for me. I blame the last Rave forum day for piquing my curiosity over levers. Somehow having loads of Londinium levers and loads of dialled in insanely expensive grinders everywhere you look made the process of making incredible espresso very easy!!
> 
> Spent an afternoon dialling in my Ceado with an unfamiliar decaf single origin. Was nice and better texture than from my classic but can't yet manage the luxurious tasting perfect shot. Will try again with my usual beans tomorrow to see what comes out.
> 
> So far so good though!


nicely done. I do think levers look a lot of fun and very cool. If a Londinium L1 came up on here I'd be tempted. However I do have a rocket lined up and looking forward to that a lot!


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Out of interest if I was to opt for a secondhand londonium L1 or veloce in the future do I need to worry about picking up one of the early problematic models or were they all sorted early on


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

KTD said:


> Out of interest if I was to opt for a secondhand londonium L1 or veloce in the future do I need to worry about picking up one of the early problematic models or were they all sorted early on


I the early ones are long enough gone that problems are sorted now.

I like the simplicity inside and ease of servicing - nothing I can't do myself.

After 5 shots this morning I am dialled in with a fantastic coffee.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

rob177palmer said:


> I the early ones are long enough gone that problems are sorted now.
> 
> I like the simplicity inside and ease of servicing - nothing I can't do myself.
> 
> After 5 shots this morning I am dialled in with a fantastic coffee.


I think it's my natural upgrade path, just don't tell the misses ?


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

KTD said:


> I think it's my natural upgrade path, just don't tell the misses ?


I was quite surprised how well my proposal went down - although she was surprised at the size when it finally arrived.

I would think either a Veloce or L1 from here would have been cared for by an owner who knew how to sort the earlier problems if it was a dud originally. I'd have been confident getting one from here.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

A short review of the Veloce here - looks pretty good for home use, guess I've found what I want


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Stanic said:


> A short review of the Veloce here - looks pretty good for home use, guess I've found what I want


Thats the current machine being sold......it has a Pid.....when in development, the prototype of which there is only one had a Pid and we could not fathom out what it added to things, so it was removed. QM must know something as they have stuck it back on again! Did you know I was given the honour of coming up with a name for the machine......only condition was it has to begin with a 'V'!


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Did you know I was given the honour of coming up with a name for the machine......only condition was it has to begin with a 'V'!


Actually Claudette mentioned that yesterday - I forgot to say!!


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Can someone try to re-post that link pls? I have tried to stick into google translate and I get a repository of reviews, none of which are the QM Veloce / Rapida


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

rob177palmer said:


> Can someone try to re-post that link pls? I have tried to stick into google translate and I get a repository of reviews, none of which are the QM Veloce / Rapida


the full link: http://www.rimprezza.de/epages/63241512.mobile/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/63241512/Categories/Servicebereich/%22Maschinen%20Vorstellungen/Vergleiche%22/Quickmill_Veloce

I use chrome - if you have it installed that should do a pretty decent job of translating it within the page (a little icon in the URL bar appears which you can click to translate) my humble apologies if that's all completely unhelpful, irrelevant already known etc.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Thanks! There she is


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> Thats the current machine being sold......it has a Pid.....when in development, the prototype of which there is only one had a Pid and we could not fathom out what it added to things, so it was removed. QM must know something as they have stuck it back on again! Did you know I was given the honour of coming up with a name for the machine......only condition was it has to begin with a 'V'!


personally I rather see a PID than p-stat as it has tighter deadband (higher precision can't hurt I guess) and the ability to be set to a precise value

you've come up with a name there can be no objections against I guess


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Great insight in to PIDs on hx and levers here: https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?15597-Pid-on-new-hx-machines

See davecuk response. Makes sense to me - I would prefer a good old mechanical pstat and be sure the PID wasn't compromising steaming within the deadband


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

these remind me the wars over film or digital cameras or vinyl vs. CD









both have their advantages and disadvantages and user preferences


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> looks a beast. If I saw a second hand one it would be tempting


I just might know of one coming up. I sold mine to a friend who has just been around this morning. If interested I doubt he would want to ship for all the usual reasons. This model came with the standard steel sides, and I replaced them with a glass panel on one side and a black tempered glass panel on the other. I also bought a stainless steel pf which is drop dead gorgeous. If interested, I will know in the next few days


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> I just might know of one coming up. I sold mine to a friend who has just been around this morning. If interested I doubt he would want to ship for all the usual reasons. This model came with the standard steel sides, and I replaced them with a glass panel on one side and a black tempered glass panel on the other. I also bought a stainless steel pf which is drop dead gorgeous. If interested, I will know in the next few days


I would love to see some photos of those sides!


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> I just might know of one coming up. I sold mine to a friend who has just been around this morning. If interested I doubt he would want to ship for all the usual reasons. This model came with the standard steel sides, and I replaced them with a glass panel on one side and a black tempered glass panel on the other. I also bought a stainless steel pf which is drop dead gorgeous. If interested, I will know in the next few days


thanks, are we talking veloce or L1? I've lost track of what's been mentioned in here now


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Think it was the nota


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

KTD said:


> Think it was the nota


Ah yes, forgot about that one!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Was referring to the Nota!


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Thanks. Stunning looking machine what sort of price would it be do you think? I suspect the distance might be an issue however. I'm not going to have a free day to drive up to get it


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Will tell you next week. if he has the original boxes (is a farmer so bound to be somewhere!) he may courier it if you arrange..but sit tight till I have sorted things with him


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Will tell you next week. if he has the original boxes (is a farmer so bound to be somewhere!) he may courier it if you arrange..but sit tight till I have sorted things with him


thanks. No hurry.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> thanks. No hurry.


are you anywhere near to Cambridge?


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> are you anywhere near to Cambridge?


no, not really. I'm near reading


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