# The end of the bi-modal espresso grinder?



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

http://colinharmon.wordpress.com/

This is a HUGE jump for a coffeeshop, when I first read this I checked the date wasnt 1st April!

I wonder how many others will follow suit....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Jesus how am I going to get that grinder in the kitchen ......


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

St Ali did it first, after Matt Perger's performance in WBC. They're doing all espresso that way, and also doing coffee shots which 3fe aren't yet. I'm slightly surprised to see 3fe doing this seeing as Hasbean Steve wasn't impressed, but i'd love to try it myself.

Not convinced it's the future yet.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I think Steve wasnt impressed with the longer ''coffee shots''. I forgot to ask about the standard 18.5>35>25 seconds.

It seems single-dosing has merit then, the coffeeshops learning from the thrifty home baristas!


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

It kind of makes you wonder where bi-modal came from in the first place if uniform grind size is superior :shrug:


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

I would have to try this before judging, but I'm not sure it's really necessary. We are moving to levels of 'super anal geekery' here, but for who's benefit? Will your average consumer notice the difference? Would need to try myself...

EDIT: Would like to add, noticed at the end of the blog, he mentions it's right for 3fe not everyone, which is a good and fair point.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I guess the main points for 3fe are around reducing costs and if as a result this creates a better espresso then thats a good thing right?

The EK43 is no more expensive than a Robur-e is it?

I need to try myself


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Is there no advantage to all of us setting the grinders we have to their most unimodal settings?

18.3g dose, 35g output, 7.5%TDS and 20% extraction don't scan?

The Prufrock blog seems every bit as enthusiastic about the possibilities that the EK43 present.

There's a lot of excitement generally about this at the moment, but equally alot of mashing together of "coffee shots" (hey, remember when they were called fast brew/Caffe Crema/Traditionnel?







)/high yields/unimodal grind...the latter two seem relative to each other, but don't necessarily relate to the first.


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

Can anyone translate?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Which bit, specifically?


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

Is there anything unique about this EK43, or would any high-end shop grinder do the same thing?



MWJB said:


> Is there no advantage to all of us setting the grinders we have to their most unimodal settings?


Not sure if it's what you're hinting at Mark, but is that effectively what we are doing by using high capacity baskets? The relative difference between the bi-modal grind sizes will reduce at coarser settings, so overall it is moving more towards uniform grind size.


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Which bit, specifically?


All of it









More seriously what is ground breaking? The grinder or an unconventional use of it.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

painty said:


> Is there anything unique about this EK43, or would any high-end shop grinder do the same thing?
> 
> Not sure if it's what you're hinting at Mark, but is that effectively what we are doing by using high capacity baskets? The relative difference between the bi-modal grind sizes will reduce at coarser settings, so overall it is moving more towards uniform grind size.


I guess so, to a degree that could be a by-product, but I'm guessing that to get the least variation in particle size, most grinders are well out of espresso territory? That's the thing, no one is mentioning particle size ...not that it would help if their grinder is unimodal at 500microns & yours at 1200?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Southpaw said:


> All of it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, to me, the ground breaking thing...OK the new-ish thing...the thing is...

The grinder (which has existed for some time, but not in coffee shop applications) allows shots to be brewed more precisely, to a specific extraction level....less overextracted tiny, tiny grinds & less underextracted big chunks, so less of a compromise. A 19% "ideal", bimodal shot may consist of little grinds at rather over 20% and bigger chunks at 16%, for example.

This grinder can allow an espresso machine to brew shots of a longer length (if so desired) without picking up so much unwanted flavours as the dose is ideally extracted to a similar level accross the puck. With less fines, this may push the overall extraction higher, but with less variation. So 19% isn't your sweet spot anymore, you've shifted the datum to maybe 22% to 24%.

I don't know whether espresso grinds were always meant to be bi-modal, or whether it was a natural consequence of grinding that fine. It was largely assumed (which we should never do) that a bi-modal grind was "required" for espresso.

Matt Perger, Jon Ferguson & others had been sieving grinds for pourover brews in competition, with much the same aim, more focus & clarity (but not necessarily getting more coffee out from the same dose).

My guess is that, even a fine unimodal (one size) grind is coarser that typical espresso, so shots are often longer than the the 1.55/1.65 ratio people were told to brew to before.

In 3fe's scenario the benefits seem to practical, business sense as much as anything.


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

MWJB said:


> A very thorough explanation


Thanks for that! Both massively interesting and mind boggling


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm sorry but I call Emperors New and very fashionable clothes on this, a small amount of people have latched on to what someone in the competitive barista world has done. Did this guy score highly in the WBC and come 2nd yes, but at the end of the day all this competition lark has very little to do with everyday coffee making across the world, unless of course you choose to evangelise this method and adopt it yourself, then of course it makes good business sense to big it up and call it almost the "2nd coming" of the coffee world to make it a selling point and distinguish your business from the one next door. In fact I would go as far as suggesting that if this was such a great method and made better coffee people would have been doing this a long time ago, after all the grinder in question isn't exactly the latest technology, but I guess for some people if they were told that a simple aluminium mokapot was where it was at and the best way to make coffee they would jump on that.

But hey if all this highly anal and frankly ridiculous geekery means more people dumping their big conicals in favour of EK43s and hence dropping the price then bring it on.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Charlie, my big conical is here to stay, but then I dont use it for anything but espresso.....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

For a business the move from 40 drinks per kilo , to 54 drinks per kilo is HUGE. Especially when doing 250-400 drinks per day!

Its the difference between profilt and loss for some smaller shops.

Matt Perger and his WBC performance was only symptomatic of what others in the industry had been playing around with for a while.

I think Colin is brave to take this 100% big-bang. I dont think we will see an overnight switch to this , however the likes of Prufrock seem to be twitching in that direction.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Like the smile on the baristas face after it stopped nearly bang on target weight! No pressure


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Alot of this is over my head totally but is this anywhere near . If not excuse my village idiot ramblings and please enlighten me simple english









They are using massive burr grinders ( 93mm) on coarser settings , to get a more uniform grind size? This means the shots they run produce more (weigh over same time ) , and bring out different taste profiles ( less sourness in lighter roasts ? ) . At the same time the grinder allows them to single dose and save money on wastage ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Alot of this is over my head totally but is this anywhere near . If not excuse my village idiot ramblings and please enlighten me simple english
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, essentially. Shot length is a bit moot, unless you are specifically comparing to short shots of ~1.6:1...I don't think many Italians would be wowed by the news that you can pull a nice 1.91:1 shot! ;-) They used to call that a ristretto.

The more accurate/consistent grind should cut back on the bitters, acidity & sours that typical grinds may contribute, allowing you to tap into more sweetness from previously "too acidic" coffees.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Yes, essentially. Shot length is a bit moot, unless you are specifically comparing to short shots of ~1.6:1...I don't think many Italians would be wowed by the news that you can pull a nice 1.91:1 shot! ;-) They used to call that a ristretto.
> 
> The more accurate/consistent grind should cut back on the bitters, acidity & sours that typical grinds may contribute, allowing you to tap into more sweetness from previously "too acidic" coffees.


Thanks , I flabbergasted I was anywhere near right . Presumably the logic is that by not going really fine like a traditional espresso grind , with a traditional espresso grinder ,the big beast grinder can produce it more consistently if asked to do a coarser one ?

Also would you need a machine that you can set to pre infuse and alter brew temperature accordingly ?

If so does this mean you wouldn't be able to replicate this with commercial or domestic traditional levers ?


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

It would be nice if you could buy an espresso grinder that did these things anyway.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

smokeybarn said:


> It would be nice if you could buy an espresso grinder that did these things anyway.


You can, it costs £2500 plus has 93 mm burrs and is massive


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

smokeybarn said:


> It would be nice if you could buy an espresso grinder that did these things anyway.


The lack of innovation in the coffee industry is something that constantly frustrates. Can we not move on from essentially two stones rubbing together to crush something like some sort of ape? Bit low tech for 2013!


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

Does it weigh the dose aswell?







That's what I wanna see


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

forzajuve said:


> The lack of innovation in the coffee industry is something that constantly frustrates. Can we not move on from essentially two stones rubbing together to crush something like some sort of ape? Bit low tech for 2013!


Yeah , lasers that grind , Jet pack baristas ....


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Yeah , lasers that grind , Jet pack baristas ....


Maybe sharks with lasers attached to their heads?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

forzajuve said:


> Maybe sharks with lasers attached to their heads?


And hover boards , don't forget the hover board .........


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> For a business the move from 40 drinks per kilo , to 54 drinks per kilo is HUGE. Especially when doing 250-400 drinks per day!
> 
> Its the difference between profilt and loss for some smaller shops.


I make that in the ballpark of a grand per month saving for beans costing £15/kg, though that's offset by the extra prep involved I guess.


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

painty said:


> I make that in the ballpark of a grand per month saving for beans costing £15/kg, though that's offset by the extra prep involved I guess.


That's got me thinking, I could be wrong here, maths never was my strong point, so please do correct me, but after doing some sums...

Allowing 18g per drink (1000g/54) that's £0.27 in coffee per drink. Going from 40 to 54 drinks means you're saving 252g of coffee per KG = £3.78 difference

If you maxed out at 400 drinks/day at (18g each) = 7.2KG/day x £3.78 difference = £27.21 per day. Multiply that by 30 days in a month, that's £816 saving. These numbers are unlikey, but lets edge on the prosperous side of life..

Minus the 1xBarista hour @ £7? x 30days = £210

Total saving: £816-£210 = £606/month. Quite considerable when you consider you have to sell a LOT of drinks to clear £600 in PROFIT.

Maybe I've change my mind about this method


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Still unsure on the wastage issue, are they saying they don't need to dial in the grinder between beans/days? What's the difference between just using an on demand grinder well calibrated?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Well it seems to me that plenty of other coffeeshops manage to clear a decent profit, are busy and don't lose as much in wastage, ,maybe all that was really needed was a re-examination of working practices re waste.


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

smokeybarn said:


> That's got me thinking, ...
> 
> Quite considerable when you consider you have to sell a LOT of drinks to clear £600 in PROFIT.
> 
> Maybe I've change my mind about this method


I did it more simply:

400 drinks per day @ 40 drinks per kg of beans = 10 kg beans per day = £150

400 drinks per day @ 54 drinks per kg of beans = 7.4 kg beans per day = £111

Daily saving = 150 - 111 = £39. Monthly saving = £39 x 30 = ~£1170

Not sure where the two methods diverge, but like you say, even though these may be optimistic figures, it's going to be a worthwhile saving.

.


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## spune (Oct 3, 2011)

Interesting read and thank you to those who translated!

My own two pennies on a sort of related note - whilst I sometimes like getting very 'precise' coffee, I enjoy the fact that there is that variation and uncertainty. Yes there can be disappointment in a somewhat unpleasant drink, but then that opens the door for those extra tasty ones too.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Thanks , I flabbergasted I was anywhere near right . *Presumably the logic is that by not going really fine like a traditional espresso grind *, with a traditional espresso grinder ,the big beast grinder can produce it more consistently if asked to do a coarser one ?
> 
> Also would you need a machine that you can set to pre infuse and alter brew temperature accordingly ?
> 
> If so does this mean you wouldn't be able to replicate this with commercial or domestic traditional levers ?


The EK43 does go really really fine, because it creates no 'rocks' you can actually go finer


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Charliej said:


> Well it seems to me that plenty of other coffeeshops manage to clear a decent profit, are busy and don't lose as much in wastage, ,maybe all that was really needed was a re-examination of working practices re waste.


The EK43 holds ZERO grinds in the path.

The Anfim Super Caimano holds quite a bit!

Lets not lose sight of the ''it improves taste'' and ''we can now use ANY coffees to produce tasty espresso'' comments Colin made.

The only negatives are the pre-weighing labour before service.


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

forzajuve said:


> Still unsure on the wastage issue, are they saying they don't need to dial in the grinder between beans/days? What's the difference between just using an on demand grinder well calibrated?


Indeed, that's what I would do. Would need to try this EK43 method, if it's that good you could save up and buy one with the pre-weigh savings


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> The EK43 holds ZERO grinds in the path.


Ahhhhh well there we go then. If you're serving a verity of different coffees, no need to flush between changes. Okay I like the idea now, I see it's merits, Edit: but what about 'dialing in' between shots?

Still, doubt I'll be able to convince any of my customers to switch


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

''•We have made our own incremental dial for the EK as it comes without one, the best one we have is not in the video

•We see very little movement of the dial. Pacamara to Bourbon would be 3 tiny notches different. Quiet to busy and back again would see a single notch difference (approx 1mm) and back again''


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> ''•We have made our own incremental dial for the EK as it comes without one, the best one we have is not in the video
> 
> •We see very little movement of the dial. Pacamara to Bourbon would be 3 tiny notches different. Quiet to busy and back again would see a single notch difference (approx 1mm) and back again''


I should read more thoroughly


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Interesting post that makes it sound a little less attractive, particularly the price of those burrs, I could buy a grinder for that. http://bar1sta.com/?p=164


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Neill said:


> Interesting post that makes it sound a little less attractive, particularly the price of those burrs, I could buy a grinder for that. http://bar1sta.com/?p=164


That's a very balanced reposte


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Those larger grinders indeed have huge burrs but they are rated at 20000lbs at medium grind, for a home user no issues...for a shop....hmmmm maybe


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The thing is like a jet engine or V8 . In a quiet little coffeeshop, ha ha


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> The thing is like a jet engine or V8 . In a quiet little coffeeshop, ha ha


Could you imagine switching that on first thing in the morning after a night on the sauce? Wonder if it comes with a complimentary pair of ear defenders??


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

That grinder is surely suffering some sort of defect.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> The thing is like a jet engine or V8


And there was me thinking that this would never take off! Boom boom!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Pretty sure thats not its normal noise, the other "EK43 service" video on youtube sounds nothing like that.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Agreed that cannot be functioning right in fact it sounds knackered


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

They've probably created the video to demonstrate the problem to the dealer / repair tech


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

Thinking more about this, does anyone know what sort of price the artisan cafes pay for their beans?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

depends on the beans and the relationship with the roaster.

For example HB Jailbreak is 4.50 per 250g (£18 per kilo) as a guestimate if you are a wholesale customer you would be paying somewhere around £13 a kilo but you'd need a minimum order per week/month.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

http://www.jimseven.com/2013/08/21/alright-lets-talk-about-EK43s-then/


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

^ It's surprising how much strength of feeling this is stirring up, isn't it. I couldn't begin to understand James's financial analysis.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Everyone seems to agree that uniform grind size is a good thing though, no one seems to be doubting the EK-43's performance in this respect. But there does seem to confusion & assumptions as to how this is employed. 3FE aren't doing coffee shots yet, there is confusion in their blog as to whether they are exploiting increased yields. Long shots from espresso machines aren't new, batch-ground coffee used to make espresso isn't new either (well, not if you use a pressurised basket, supermarket shelves are full of the stuff)...but everywhere there are implications that these thing are synonymous. Is an increased yield with reduced fines a new standard, or is the datum merely shifting with less overextraction of smaller particles and/or less water retained in the bed/puck?

...and all we can do is watch from the sidelines...and stir the pot once in awhile...


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## CallumT (Aug 23, 2013)

There's an EK43 in one of my local shops - I'm gently lingering and trying to come up with my own evaluation of the whole thing. But dedicated espresso grinders won't be dead I'm fairly sure about that, but as with any big step forward it's always initially a step back (if that makes sense?) - reminds me of workflow behind the bar and trying to crease out bad habits

Also I have had a coffee shot... It was interesting but wasn't dialled in 100% with the refractometer, which so I've heard gets you where they need to be.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

http://blog.workshopcoffee.com/2013/08/21/the-ek43/


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## Locus Solus (Apr 28, 2013)

The photos here from an article about the recent discussions raised a smile.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Great, plain English post from Jeremy Challender at Prufrock, about practical benefits of EK43/consistent grind/filter strength brewing on espresso machine...

http://www.prufrockcoffee.com/coffee/


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

Should I think that pull a coffee-shot with a lever will be almost impossible?

Double pull? Fellini technique? Any thoughts?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Viernes said:


> Should I think that pull a coffee-shot with a lever will be almost impossible?
> 
> Double pull? Fellini technique? Any thoughts?


Bonjour I don't think a L1 will do what you want it too, its got no pid , cant change the temp on the fly for different roasts, and I would doubt it would make a coffee shot due to the amount of water in the group (no dont Fellini pull it). Other levers I don't know , mr coffee chap might be able to enlighten you . The L1 will make very very good coffee though.


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

Have you tried to make a Lungo with the L1? (Is not as large as a coffee-shot, I know)

Thanks.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Viernes said:


> Have you tried to make a Lungo with the L1? (Is not as large as a coffee-shot, I know)
> 
> Thanks.


Haven't tried , I am by no means a expert in this field as only recently had my L1, but you don't Fellini pull them , and there is only a specific amount of water in the group , if you are defining lungo as 60 ml then , I don't think you can make one . The shots I pull from a double dose (16g ) tend to be around 40 -45 ml , but that is a guess as I don't measure.

Any of the other more experienced L1 guys have an opinion on this question ?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Viernes said:


> Should I think that pull a coffee-shot with a lever will be almost impossible?
> 
> Double pull? Fellini technique? Any thoughts?


You've got 50ml coming through the puck delivering 25-30grm extraction on LI. Pulling the lever a second time would deliver nothing +ve from the puck - would just degrade the shot. Better to add some plain hot water to stretch if that's your preference.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> You've got 50ml coming through the puck delivering 25-30grm extraction on LI. Pulling the lever a second time would deliver nothing +ve from the puck - would just degrade the shot. Better to add some plain hot water to stretch if that's your preference.


Does that mean for once I was right ?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Completely right well done your becoming a lever advisor...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Completely right well done your becoming a lever advisor...


Do I get a badge like in the scouts... I want a badge goddamit !


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

How about lever apprentice?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Do I get a badge like in the scouts... I want a badge goddamit !


Will have a word with Reiss to see if a merit badge is deserved. Be warned, they're not awarded lightly


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> How about lever apprentice?


Love it - perfect.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> How about lever apprentice?


Hmmm that sound a bit Star Wars , does this make you Ben Obi One to my Luke ? If so who is Han Solo , and more importantly darth vader ? I won't ask for suggestion for chewbacca.......


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> How about lever apprentice?


Try it again with the voice of Alan Sugar. Much less sinister than the Emperor.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Try it again with the voice of Alan Sugar. Much less sinister than the Emperor.


Your fired......


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Love it - perfect.


Shut it C3PO........


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Shut it C3PO........


Nah! I'm more R2D2....chirp, squeak, chirp, chirp.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Nah! I'm more R2D2....chirp, squeak, chirp, chirp.


I thought that would be bubba.........


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

EK-43 makes more fines that Robur shock! Read all about it....

http://mattperger.com/#The-EK43-Part-Two

...but it's OK ;-)


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

MWJB said:


> EK-43 makes more fines that Robur shock! Read all about it....
> 
> http://mattperger.com/#The-EK43-Part-Two
> 
> ...but it's OK ;-)


Interesting read. Also interesting that the k30 seems to do well in comparison.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

It's an interesting read,but, it seems like he designed the tests around the results he wanted from them, a much truer and interesting test would have been to see what happens when the peak size of particles from each grinder was diallied in as close as possible to that of the EK43 and then extracted each shot.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I don't see why that would be a truer test? The object seems to be to see which grinder could deliver the highest, most even extraction.

Did you read part 3?

http://mattperger.com/#The-EK43-Part-Three


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Very interesting read, thanks for posting . I wonder what sort of graph results the 83mm Mazzer burrs produce


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

22g in 51/52g out? Is that right? Was speaking to Craft Coffee about the EK43 at the weekend and they said they can extract up to 38g from a 20g shot but 52 seems wild.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

He stated dialling them in to extract as much as possible before hitting problems . I've enjoyed 20 into 42g before , the key is a faster shot 23-26 seconds , mouthfeel isn't the target but sweetness and clarity


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> He stated dialling them in to extract as much as possible before hitting problems . I've enjoyed 20 into 42g before , the key is a faster shot 23-26 seconds , mouthfeel isn't the target but sweetness and clarity


So wouldn't a "gusher" shot be traditionally seen as sour ? Yet 42g in 23 seconds makes it sweeter ? Help my poor aching head ......


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> So wouldn't a "gusher" shot be traditionally seen as sour ? Yet 42g in 23 seconds makes it sweeter ? Help my poor aching head ......


No gushing involved . It doesn't work with every coffee either


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

This isn't meant to sound fecious but when someone starts showing me graphs of why something tastes good , I I just switch off....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I find it interesting, especially that the larger ( and more flat) the burrs the quicker the shot time for max desired % . Need a play on one !!!!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> I find it interesting, especially that the larger ( and more flat) the burrs the quicker the shot time for max desired % . Need a play on one !!!!


When you have finished researching can you make me a picture with each grinder on and next to it either a happy or a sad face ?

That's about my level of comprehension currently ....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Yes. In wax crayons . I'll have my weak lemon drink to hand


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Yes. In wax crayons . I'll have my weak lemon drink to hand


Hmm weak lemon drink..........


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)




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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> 22g in 51/52g out? Is that right? Was speaking to Craft Coffee about the EK43 at the weekend and they said they can extract up to 38g from a 20g shot but 52 seems wild.


To extract to ~23%, whilst maintaining a preferred strength (grinder allowing), you likely need to run more water through the puck, this 42% brew ratio broadly fits with that. 20g:38g seems more in line with a 20-21% yield?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


>


Genius......I think maybe only me you remember that Gary .....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I wonder what grinder Simon Quinlank would have ?

This hobby is called "Seeing how long you can go without doing a hobby." You must empty your mind of all hobbies, and time how long it is before you find yourself doing a hobby. ...................... Remember, you must not drink your weak lemon drink, as drinking weak lemon drink constitutes taking part in a hobby.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

On the fount of wisdom game - I asked Simon ''What is the best coffee grinder?''

He replied ''You will learn the answer. NOTHING ELSE IS ACCEPTABLE.'' so true!!

http://www.loggods.com/pestilence/quinlank/forthishobbyyouwillneedoutside.htm


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> On the fount of wisdom game - I asked Simon ''What is the best coffee grinder?''
> 
> He replied ''You will learn the answer. NOTHING ELSE IS ACCEPTABLE.'' so true!!
> 
> http://www.loggods.com/pestilence/quinlank/forthishobbyyouwillneedoutside.htm


Ask him if the sage is better than the brewtus ....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ask him if the sage is better than the brewtus ....


''Definitely not! That is a boring and stupid conception.''

I also asked if Brewtus better than the Sage

''Definitely not! That is a boring and stupid conception''

Like me he is on the fence


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> ''Definitely not! That is a boring and stupid conception.''


And there we have our definitive answer .. All that time spend debating, testing, arguing and it was that simple all along

Then you has to ask him again ..........just when it was finally over


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

MWJB said:
 

> To extract to ~23%, whilst maintaining a preferred strength (grinder allowing), you likely need to run more water through the puck, this 42% brew ratio broadly fits with that. 20g:38g seems more in line with a 20-21% yield?


Bang on:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/401282363097088000


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