# What am I doing wrong? - Sage Dual Boiler



## Phoebe (Jul 15, 2020)

Hi,

Recently bought the sage dual boiler with the grinder and haven't yet had any luck making a decent double espresso. We using a dose of 18-20g (not sure if that correct) but getting a shot that literally double the weight it should be i.e flowing through way to fast. I've put the grind down right down to the finest setting but it hasn't changed anything. I was wondering if anyone had any tips.

Many thanks!


----------



## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

which baskets are you using?

Have you read the instructions?


----------



## Phoebe (Jul 15, 2020)

Hi, yes spent quite a while trying to inform myself!

I'm using the single walled basket designed for a double shot, I believe is 58mm. Doesn't matter what we do, I cannot increase the extraction to more than 15s


----------



## ArkellvsPressdram (Jun 21, 2020)

alright there, check out this post it contains some really useful tips for Sage owners:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51039-sage-beprodtp-etc-read-this-first/?do=embed

Also, what kind of coffee are you using?


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Send us a vid Phoebe - will make it much quicker to see what's going on.

And mention where beans are from, how long since roast date

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Phoebe (Jul 15, 2020)

Thank you, I found that post on the sage forum post very helpful! I changed the burr setting down from 6 to 4. I did try 5 as well but feel it didn't make enough a difference. On the 4 setting I managed to get an extraction time of 25secs which I'm much happier with but shot now tasting more bitter. I used a dose of 20g and got roughly 45g yield.

Beans are from Allpress Espresso, Brazil Porto do Ceu (don't think they sell it anymore, so can't find much info on it) - roasted on the 22/06.

Also, if anyone has experience with the Sage Smart Grinder, what grind setting do you usually go for, or will it completely depend on the beans?


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Phoebe said:


> Thank you, I found that post on the sage forum post very helpful! I changed the burr setting down from 6 to 4. I did try 5 as well but feel it didn't make enough a difference. On the 4 setting I managed to get an extraction time of 25secs which I'm much happier with but shot now tasting more bitter. I used a dose of 20g and got roughly 45g yield.
> 
> Beans are from Allpress Espresso, Brazil Porto do Ceu (don't think they sell it anymore, so can't find much info on it) - roasted on the 22/06.
> 
> Also, if anyone has experience with the Sage Smart Grinder, what grind setting do you usually go for, or will it completely depend on the beans?


 The sage thread that was linked to doesn't apply too much to your machine as it's a dual boiler, so you shouldn't have to worry about temperature relating to slowing the flow down and the other thermojet specific stuff. But there are some general good points in there that apply to all machines like weighing doses and using fresh coffee (though you can happily go beyond the stated 5 weeks if properly stored).

I'm fairly certain the DB has a PID that allows you to alter water temp. If you have a high flow rate (fast shots) you'll need to use a slightly lower temp than a low flow rate (slower shots) as the puck is brought up to temperature rapidly by the faster water flow, but we're only talking a couple of degrees here. A 93c PID setting is a good place to start. The reason I'm mentioning this is because you say your coffee is bitter at 20:45g in 25 seconds. You might get past this bitterness if you increase your ratio slightly to 20:55/60g in about 30 seconds (don't worry if it's a little over or under). Alternatively the bitterness could be caused by the water being too hot and/or the grinder could be generating a lot of fines. Is there a lot of grit in the cup?

The Sage grinder is not really good enough for espresso, it just about manages to hit the 'parameters' of espresso i.e a shot produced at 9 bars in 20-30 seconds, but producing good espresso, especially at low ratios requires better equipment. If the grinder is at fault (lot of grit in the cup or muddy tasting shots) you could try longer shots with between 60-90g in the cup from the same dose, don't worry about getting the pressure up to 9 bar if you do this.


----------



## Phoebe (Jul 15, 2020)

Hi,

I did have a little play around with the temperature, increased it from 93 to 95 (because I thought higher temp would mean a slower flow, but no?) but it went super bitter and scrapped that idea. Would you recommended trying lower than 93 degrees then?

I have made a few with a a larger ratio e.g. 60-70g and I must admit it did improve the taste but thought a bit to be classed as espresso. I didn't notice much grit in the cup, but would need to check next time to confirm.

If you say the sage the grinder isn't too good for espresso, do you mean it can't grind fine enough? Would you say changing the burr down to less than 4 would help at all?

Sorry for the all the questions, I"m very new to the espresso world Also, pls forgive me if anything I say doesn't really make sense!


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Phoebe said:


> Hi,
> 
> I did have a little play around with the temperature, increased it from 93 to 95 (because I thought higher temp would mean a slower flow, but no?) but it went super bitter and scrapped that idea. Would you recommended trying lower than 93 degrees then?
> 
> ...


 Increasing the temp by 1/2c wouldn't really slow the flow. Not significantly anyway, it will affect extraction. I would say decrease temp back to 93c.

I think you missed a word out with the second sentence. "thought a bit long to be classed as espresso"???? It's still espresso, call it a lungo if you want. Pressures above 4 bar will emulsify the oils and give you a crema.

It's not just a question of grinding "fine enough", the grinder has to be consistent too. All grinders produce a range of particle sizes. The finer your grind setting the more "fines" you get -- the fines are tiny particles that can clog basket holes and make their way into the cup imparting gritty/bitter/muddy tastes. The Sage is not great at producing fine grinds without a lot of these fines. So while you can probably grind "fine enough" to slow a shot down to get a 1:2 or 1:2.5 in 25 seconds with a medium roast, it probably won't taste great.

By all means give it a shot, no pun intended. Adjust finer, slow the shot down and see if what you get tastes better than the longer ratio with a coarser grind.


----------



## Phoebe (Jul 15, 2020)

Okay thank you very much for your advice!


----------



## Sam7036 (Jul 20, 2020)

Do you like the dual boiler machine thinking of getting it as my first proper espresso machine- have experience cafe wise making drinks but not the funds to go into the very expensive side so looking second hand at this combo

Potentially looking at the niche zero for the grinder as an ideal option should funds stretch


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Sam7036 said:


> Do you like the dual boiler machine thinking of getting it as my first proper espresso machine- have experience cafe wise making drinks but not the funds to go into the very expensive side so looking second hand at this combo


 Be very cautious about buying a Sage second hand.


----------



## Sam7036 (Jul 20, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> Be very cautious about buying a Sage second hand.


 Is there a good dual boiler system you could advise looking into for around the £600 mark second hand or would this be too little can stretch a little further if need be but not much further.

Appreciate the warning and any further advice thank you.


----------



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Sam7036 said:


> Is there a good dual boiler system you could advise looking into for around the £600 mark second hand or would this be too little can stretch a little further if need be but not much further.
> 
> Appreciate the warning and any further advice thank you.


 I do not think you will find a dual boiler for that budget and if you did I would be wary.

Go for a solid used HX machine or take a look at a used Fracino Piccino, it is actually a dual boiler but the boilers are very small. Great for a few drinks a day but it isn't the same thing as a Bianca or Duo.


----------



## Sam7036 (Jul 20, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> I do not think you will find a dual boiler for that budget and if you did I would be wary.
> 
> Go for a solid used HX machine or take a look at a used Fracino Piccino, it is actually a dual boiler but the boilers are very small. Great for a few drinks a day but it isn't the same thing as a Bianca or Duo.


 Thank you for this advice will look into the piccino have seen this before but not found any second hand ones available at the moment so may be best to wait until one comes around- won't be doing lots of drinks at once so small boilers shouldn't be a problem. Will most likely look into HX machines if nothing comes up within a reasonable time frame thanks for the reply


----------



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Sam7036 said:


> Thank you for this advice will look into the piccino have seen this before but not found any second hand ones available at the moment so may be best to wait until one comes around- won't be doing lots of drinks at once so small boilers shouldn't be a problem. Will most likely look into HX machines if nothing comes up within a reasonable time frame thanks for the reply


 If you can push your budget a touch I could do a new one for you. Let me know if it is of interest. You would at least then get a warranty and no worries about scale.


----------



## Sam7036 (Jul 20, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> If you can push your budget a touch I could do a new one for you. Let me know if it is of interest. You would at least then get a warranty and no worries about scale.


 Would I be able to pm you to discuss this option please.


----------



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Sam7036 said:


> Would I be able to pm you to discuss this option please.


 Of course.

David


----------

