# Sage Touch, Dual Boiler and Barista Pro the same cost - which is right for me



## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

Hi all

I recently saw on a site (can't remember which one but it had decent trustpilot reviews) that the Sage Barista Pro, Touch and Dual Boiler were all for £699. I haven't had any replies to my other post around getting the Sage and, not knowing any better, started thinking that I should just get a Sage as I know others use them and it looks like a good starting point that is in my budget.

On that basis, my immediate thought was, let me get the dual boiler, it is the best of the bunch. But then I got thinking, is it actually right for me? Granted it has a dual boiler but for the usual 2 cups at a time I do and with the Barista Pro lightning quick heat up times, do I actually need a dual boiler? Also, being a newbie, maybe the LCD panel will be more valuable so I can understand more of what is happening than just a pressure gauge. Also, it will mean I need to spend another £200 or so on a grinder which takes it above what I want to spend. So I thought, ok, maybe the "best" is not the best for me. Let me then get the touch. But again challenged myself in whether it is suitable. The touch, while the LCD panel is pretty, has the auto steam wand which I'm not too fond of. I don't believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that the auto-wand would be able to produce as good steamed milk as a manual with a fair bit of learning/practice (although it would mean my wife, who doesn't want to learn, would be able to produce milky drinks). So again, started thinking that I should stick to the Sage Barista Pro as my starting point.

Does anyone here have experience with the touch and can the steam wand be used as manual?

Also, for a newbie, would it make sense to have the LCD info panel or won't it help?

Thanks, Alan


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Hi Alan and welcome aboard!
Not having owned any Sage gear so far, I can't really advise you on what to get. From what has been written on here and elsewhere, I take that it is OK equipment but almost impossible to service or repair on your own for the company's restrictive spare parts philosophy.

In general, do you (plan to) prepare many milk based drinks? Multiple in a row? Frequently for guests as well? Then a dual boiler will always make sense.
If it's just for 2 cappuccinos in the morning, any other machine would also suffice.

If you want to control multiple on/off times per day and/or have smart sockets/switches at home, a Sage will not let you switch it anywhere else than on its built-in soft switch. Plugging it in it will always go to standby. Think at least the touch features a single on/off timer function, so you're not totally screwed  especially in the morning you might want to wake up to a pre-heated machine that lets you pull your shots immediately.

An integrated grinder has the benefit of using only one power cord and being a space saver. It also increases maneuverability. However, the downside being they're not the best and upgrading to a better grinder (which will be your next bus stop towards coffee nirvana) leaves you with an unused attachment suddenly taking up extra space. Also, if something breaks or fails, you'll find yourself without any equipment until it's fixed or replaced as a whole.

Maybe (previous) Sage owners may chime in on what to look for...!

Have you considered other machines so far?

Enjoy kicking off your coffee journey - great times ahead!!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

AlanB1976 said:


> Hi all
> 
> I recently saw on a site (can't remember which one but it had decent trustpilot reviews) that the Sage Barista Pro, Touch and Dual Boiler were all for £699. I haven't had any replies to my other post around getting the Sage and, not knowing any better, started thinking that I should just get a Sage as I know others use them and it looks like a good starting point that is in my budget.
> 
> ...


 making coffee is not really about those visual clues such as pressure gauge but more about understanding the relations between coffee used and coffee made , what we calla brew ratio and using some scales to help you set up a coffee.

No machine is super plug and play, your partner may be able to get by using a two cup button if properly dialled in by yourself ( see above )

the auto milk function is really good , i used it on the Oracle no touch version , i cant see why it would be any different in quality on this machine . I am not sure you would out it into manual mode on a this version of the barista as on Sage model i had milking was activated by a physical lever on and off. Check with Sage tbh as i cant see a mention on their website , perhaps it could be on off via the touch screen.

Re Lcd panel , i do not think this brings any help to making coffee better quality IMHO.

Daul boilers are great machines but if you are not gonna do high volume and do not ant to spend more than £200 on a grinder then perhaps it isnt for you.

The grinder in these Sage models is entry level , does a decent job on your medium and dark roasts , will struggle in a lighter fruiter based coffee.


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## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

Thanks for the replies.



Hasi said:


> In general, do you (plan to) prepare many milk based drinks? Multiple in a row? Frequently for guests as well? Then a dual boiler will always make sense.


 95% of the time it will just be for me and my wife which will be a mix of americano/cappuccino/flat-white. So I don't think a dual boiler is needed, but then, if it won't cost much more, may be an option.



Hasi said:


> If you want to control multiple on/off times per day and/or have smart sockets/switches at home, a Sage will not let you switch it anywhere else than on its built-in soft switch. Plugging it in it will always go to standby. Think at least the touch features a single on/off timer function, so you're not totally screwed  especially in the morning you might want to wake up to a pre-heated machine that lets you pull your shots immediately.


 What really attracted me to the Barista Pro was that it can heat up in seconds and so won't need to have any timers/smart-plugs/etc. I really don't want to have to wait a minute to steam milk or wait to make a coffee if not on one of the planned pre-heated times. That's what actually made me look at the Sage machines to begin with (i.e. can't afford the good HX/duals but want to avoid the single-boiler wait).



Hasi said:


> An integrated grinder has the benefit of using only one power cord and being a space saver. It also increases maneuverability. However, the downside being they're not the best and upgrading to a better grinder (which will be your next bus stop towards coffee nirvana) leaves you with an unused attachment suddenly taking up extra space. Also, if something breaks or fails, you'll find yourself without any equipment until it's fixed or replaced as a whole.


 I would actually prefer a separate grinder but, and this is only relating to the Sage equipment as it is one of the few that are within budget, the only options that don't have integrated grinders are the single boilers with long heating times or generally the more expensive models which don't look attractive purely on the basis that I can't afford them. If I could get the Barista Pro heat up times on a device without a grinder, that would be ideal.



Hasi said:


> Have you considered other machines so far?


 I looked at a few but not really knowing what to look for made it hard . As mentioned, was really put off by the long brew/steam swap times of the single boilers and costs of the HX/dual-boilers. The Sage Barista Pro kinda sat between those which is why I looked at Sage. Can you recommend something that doesn't have bad heating times in a reliable machine? I am definitely no connoisseur, so don't need top of the line makes, but would ideally like something I can get some skills on and have some consistency.



Mrboots2u said:


> Re Lcd panel , i do not think this brings any help to making coffee better quality IMHO.


 I am purely thinking while I learn. For example, you may know that you need to dial your grinder knob by 3 degrees to get a wanted finer grind. I wouldn't know how much change a small change to a dial is making, but on an LCD screen I can tell exactly by how much that is changing. Also, you know by look and experience how long to extract for. I will probably end up counting seconds on my phone to begin with so it would be a lot easier having that info on the screen. I fully agree that once I get a feel for things, it wouldn't add much at all.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

AlanB1976 said:


> I really don't want to have to wait a minute to steam milk or wait to make a coffee if not on one of the planned pre-heated times.


 The steam is an issue on any single boiler machines. Generally you'd pull an espresso first (boiler running at 93 deg.ish). You then switch to steam - needs to go above 100 degrees (maybe 110 on the sage appliances?) on the same boiler. You then say need to pull another Espresso for your wife, you instantly have water that isn't temperature stable as you've been running the steam. Causes an over-extracted bitter mess. Dual boiler ensures one runs @ 93 degrees constantly and another runs at 110+ constantly (ie the Minima runs at 93 and 125 with PID, respectively), so ensuring you always get the same espresso temperature.



AlanB1976 said:


> but want to avoid the single-boiler wait


 Single boilers don't generally take long to heat up - my Barista Express was good to go within 10 mins really, as it wasn't an e61 group. If you get an e61 group, then its recommended to leave it for half an hour or so to ensure the temperature stability (it takes a long time to heat up a big lump of brass). Also, the sage stuff is fairly compact so does heat up quite quickly as heat transfer doesn't take long.



AlanB1976 said:


> What really attracted me to the Barista Pro was that it can heat up in seconds


 I'd worry with the Barista pro getting hot so quick - reliability has come into question with the Sage stuff a few times, and I'm not sure how thermoshocking a lot of the componentry would actually do - whether it would reduce the life span etc. Think of putting ice into water - it cracks straight away. I would imagine that the lifecycle of the internal parts is much more reduced from the regular thermoshocking.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

AlanB1976 said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> 95% of the time it will just be for me and my wife which will be a mix of americano/cappuccino/flat-white. So I don't think a dual boiler is needed, but then, if it won't cost much more, may be an option.
> 
> ...


 How is the lcd communicating the change in grind setting, by a purely arbitary scale same as any other grinder. Its not telling you anything different to any other markings on any other grinder


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Cooffe said:


> The steam is an issue on any single boiler machines. Generally you'd pull an espresso first (boiler running at 93 deg.ish). You then switch to steam - needs to go above 100 degrees (maybe 110 on the sage appliances?) on the same boiler. You then say need to pull another Espresso for your wife, you instantly have water that isn't temperature stable as you've been running the steam. Causes an over-extracted bitter mess. Dual boiler ensures one runs @ 93 degrees constantly and another runs at 110+ constantly (ie the Minima runs at 93 and 125 with PID, respectively), so ensuring you always get the same espresso temperature.
> 
> Single boilers don't generally take long to heat up - my Barista Express was good to go within 10 mins really, as it wasn't an e61 group. If you get an e61 group, then its recommended to leave it for half an hour or so to ensure the temperature stability (it takes a long time to heat up a big lump of brass). Also, the sage stuff is fairly compact so does heat up quite quickly as heat transfer doesn't take long.
> 
> I'd worry with the Barista pro getting hot so quick - reliability has come into question with the Sage stuff a few times, and I'm not sure how thermoshocking a lot of the componentry would actually do - whether it would reduce the life span etc. Think of putting ice into water - it cracks straight away. I would imagine that the lifecycle of the internal parts is much more reduced from the regular thermoshocking.


 Ive had my oracle for a number of years and its been treated pretty poorly and it still functions OK.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ive had my oracle for a number of years and its been treated pretty poorly and it still functions OK.


 Does the Oracle have the quick heat up function?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Cooffe said:


> Does the Oracle have the quick heat up function?


 3 mins.

One would think its just a better thermo ring than the one form 5 years ago

I mean the decent super heats water to the group too


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> 3 mins.
> 
> One would think its just a better thermo ring than the one form 5 years ago
> 
> I mean the decent super heats water to the group too


 I'd hope so but wouldn't be 100% sure it's not the same thermo ring haha.

The decent being the DE1+?


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## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

The Barista Pro advertises 3s heat up time! I wouldn't trust that figure but even quadrupling that gives a very impressive time. However, as posted, that may have an adverse effect on the reliability of parts


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Cooffe said:


> I'd hope so but wouldn't be 100% sure it's not the same thermo ring haha.
> 
> The decent being the DE1+?


 Yeah , Im sure its not 3 seconds and it's more than likely being one a different way.

At some point one would hope that machines move on to being reliable and not having to have litres of water sat heated for hours. Its just not great for the environment.

Example of anther machine , although this will be super expensive , that heats its water prior to shot is

https://dailycoffeenews.com/2019/06/18/striking-espresso-machine-francesca-greets-the-world-of-coffee/


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## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> Yeah , Im sure its not 3 seconds and it's more than likely being one a different way.


 https://www.sageappliances.com/uk/en/products/espresso/bes878.html

"3 seconds start up with ThermoJet® heating system. "

I don't know anything about the different technologies so not sure if this is a VW emissions type scandal advertising false figures,..... but that's what it says.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

AlanB1976 said:


> https://www.sageappliances.com/uk/en/products/espresso/bes878.html
> 
> "3 seconds start up with ThermoJet® heating system. "
> 
> I don't know anything about the different technologies so not sure if this is a VW emissions type scandal advertising false figures,..... but that's what it says.


 Yes that's the first thing i though of a VW type scandal... 

I ve seen a similar heat up time for 40g of water in other places so I sure its possible


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## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

Ok, so is there a machine out there (not Sage) that is more reliable and doesn't take ages to swap to steam wand and heat up? All decent HX/dual-boiler machines (not sage) I've seen are unfortunately out my price range. I think I may be limited to Sage or have to work around heat up times.

I know I'm being lazy with that question but I would really appreciate a steer rather than reading a thousand posts/reviews.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

AlanB1976 said:


> Ok, so is there a machine out there (not Sage) that is more reliable and doesn't take ages to swap to steam wand and heat up? All decent HX/dual-boiler machines (not sage) I've seen are unfortunately out my price range. I think I may be limited to Sage or have to work around heat up times.
> 
> I know I'm being lazy with that question but I would really appreciate a steer rather than reading a thousand posts/reviews.


 What is your budget?


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## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

I was looking at £700 to £800. I know it's not that much in the espresso world but it's all I got at the moment ? (I didn't think it would be this expensive when I started on the idea). I'm not a connoisseur so don't need the best of the best.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Why not go for a used barista express? There's a couple in the for sale section. They won't cost you the earth and if you don't like it then chuck it on eBay and get your money back.

Yeah they won't have all the bells and whistles of the new machines, but for £250 you're sorted. I'd even chuck in a cheeky offer and see what happens 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Apatche64 (Jun 24, 2017)

Hi Alan ,

£700 for a dual boiler is an excellent price. They are reliable machines and many many people on here including myself use them on a daily basis.

The main gripe people on here have is if it goes wrong you have to use coffee classic to fix it , but how likely is that? And I would say the vast majority of users don't fix their coffee machines themselves anyway, so the lack of parts available to fix yourself is a moot point.

my combo of a niche grinder and a dual boiler serves me very well. I don't notice the 3 minute startup time so leave it off. Its a great machine


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

joey24dirt said:


> Why not go for a used barista express? There's a couple in the for sale section. They won't cost you the earth and if you don't like it then chuck it on eBay and get your money back.
> 
> Yeah they won't have all the bells and whistles of the new machines, but for £250 you're sorted. I'd even chuck in a cheeky offer and see what happens
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


^^^This.
If the coffee bug hits, you can always upgrade & sell it on for not much if any loss.


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## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

I know this sounds silly but I really don't like second hand goods (at least for anything that has motorised parts). My family has been burned before. I know it's the sensible thing, just possibly not for me.

Maybe if I could get something a bit better, as in a dual boiler or something that will make my experience nicer and not pi$$ the boss (wife) off cause she has to wait long for her coffee ?


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## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

Apatche64 said:


> I don't﻿ ﻿notice the 3 minute startup time so leave it off. Its a great machine


 I thought it was 10min start up. Is it really only 3min?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Sage DB is 3 mins

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

AlanB1976 said:


> I know this sounds silly but I really don't like second hand goods (at least for anything that has motorised parts). My family has been burned before. I know it's the sensible thing, just possibly not for me.
> 
> Maybe if I could get something a bit better, as in a dual boiler or something that will make my experience nicer and not pi$$ the boss (wife) off cause she has to wait long for her coffee ?


 A dual boiler will offer the functionality that you want, and yes, £700 will get you one (second hand however). But you will then need to find another couple hundred quid for a grinder, a tamper, a set of scales etc. etc. There are some hidden costs, but a lot of these accessories (that are seen as necessities) will follow through with you if you buy smart, and therefore once.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

AlanB1976 said:


> I know this sounds silly but I really don't like second hand goods (at least for anything that has motorised parts). My family has been burned before. I know it's the sensible thing, just possibly not for me.
> Maybe if I could get something a bit better, as in a dual boiler or something that will make my experience nicer and not pi$$ the boss (wife) off cause she has to wait long for her coffee


That's fair enough, especially with Sage's restricted part/repair ethos. Some come with transferable warranties which can remove the risk somewhat.


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## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

What makes the Sage Dual Boiler so highly rated over the other models (besides the fact that you can brew and steam at the same time)?

Considering the heat up times of the new Pro/Touch, would it still be better than them, specially considering it doesn't come with a grinder (I know it's not great but doable while saving up is going on)?

At the moment I'm leaning towards the touch due to the fact the frothing can be auto or manual (so my wife can use it.... or me if I'm feeling lazy) and I can stay within my budget which would be really helpful


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## RobbieTheTruth (Jun 4, 2019)

Just to chip in, because I started with a £700 budget (I went a bit over).

After extensive research, I went with a £500 Niche Grinder and spent about £250 on a Gaggia Classic modded to 9bar pressure with a PID temperature mod.

The Classic is a single boiler, but it only takes about 3 minutes to get the boiler to 93 degrees, and another minute or so to get it to 150 degrees for steam.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

AlanB1976 said:


> What makes the Sage Dual Boiler so highly rated over the other models (besides the fact that you can brew and steam at the same time)?
> 
> Considering the heat up times of the new Pro/Touch, would it still be better than them, specially considering it doesn't come with a grinder (I know it's not great but doable while saving up is going on)?
> 
> At the moment I'm leaning towards the touch due to the fact the frothing can be auto or manual (so my wife can use it.... or me if I'm feeling lazy) and I can stay within my budget which would be really helpful


 The Sage Dual Boiler is one of the cheaper DB machines you'll find (not second hand), and has all the benefits of having a Dual Boiler - Obviously! They are easily used, but don't have an e61 group, which some people swear by. This can be seen in two lights - e61 is very temperature stable so great for pulling shots, but takes a long time to heat up. On the other hand the Sage doesn't have the e61 componentry so might not be as temperature stable, but will heat up quicker.

The added benefit of the Dual Boiler is its ease to turn it to a frankenstein fairly easily and completely irreversible, which will allow you to profile the flow. This instantly puts it in the same category of the Lelit Bianca (and others), which has paddle flow control. This is classed as shot profiling (can profile flow or pressure - see Vesuvius/DE1+, the DB focuses on the flow).

They are fairly well made as far as I can hear. I've explained the benefits of a DB over a single boiler before so won't bother myself sounding like a broken record!

The auto froth won't be as good as you'd expect I guess, but it will be ok for your wife's needs I guess. The manual frothing does take a while to do on the sage single boiler machines, but they can make nice microfoam (managed to get plenty of decent milk on my Barista Express).

Obviously one thing worth noting is that if you get the DB you'd need to go through and get a grinder too... more $$$$


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## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

Thanks.

At the moment I don't see myself turning it to a Frankenstein (love the terminology ?) and there will only be 5% of the time where I would need to make more than 2 cups so wouldn't use the dual boiler functionality that much. Specially with the heat up and steam times of the Barista Pro and Touch (I also accept that those may not produce the most stable temperature profile but I doubt my palette wouldn't notice that to be honest).

I do worry about the steam output of the single boilers as you pointed out which is a key concern and probably the biggest reason I haven't already gone ahead and bought one of them. Oh and that I really don't like the idea of an LCD touch panel on a machine where I may get grubby fingers.

I posted some questions around the touch and hopefully if someone can answer them, I will make my decision. I know I will have regret no matter which way I go ?. But then there is always the future upgrade to look forward to ?


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## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

I don't think this will ever end. I'm stuck in my own personal hell of indecisiveness. So, after a comment on another post about some reported temperature issues with the Touch not producing hot enough drinks, I am starting to rethink things (AGAIN). I don't think I would notice a taste difference but I hate cold coffee, so this might be an issue. This is not ruling it out (as they are just some comments at the moment and the machine might still suit me fine)

So far, my pro/con list is below. I'm not asking for anything from anyone, more just documenting my journey in case someone is in a similar boat in the future. If you do want to chip in, always welcome  ...... on to more sleepless nights having nightmares of being brewed alive....





Sage Barista Touch

Sage Dual Boiler

Heatup

+ 3s heatup

= 3min heatup

Heat consistency

-- Some reported issues



Simplicity (Wife factor)

+ LCD & auto-milk



Switching drinks

+ Preset settings



PF

- 54mm

+ 58mm

Counter space



- extra grinder needed

Cost



- extra grinder needed

Looks



+ Love the manual look

Steaming



+ Dual boiler

Newbie factor

+ LCD helping on journey

+ Pressure gauge

Technology

+ Latest tech

= Older but trusted tech


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

AlanB1976 said:


> I don't think this will ever end. I'm stuck in my own personal hell of indecisiveness. So, after a comment on another post about some reported temperature issues with the Touch not producing hot enough drinks, I am starting to rethink things (AGAIN). I don't think I would notice a taste difference but I hate cold coffee, so this might be an issue. This is not ruling it out (as they are just some comments at the moment and the machine might still suit me fine)
> 
> So far, my pro/con list is below. I'm not asking for anything from anyone, more just documenting my journey in case someone is in a similar boat in the future. If you do want to chip in, always welcome  ...... on to more sleepless nights having nightmares of being brewed alive....
> 
> ...


 You are listening to every piece of advice , no matter from someone who has had one machine only or alot of them. You will have to make your mind up. As I said previously the LCD screen will not help you make better coffee over a pressure gauge and all touches do not make cold coffee. There is never any objective heat measurement on these threads that talk of coffee being cold enough.

If you want a auto milk frohter get the Touch if you dont get the SB.


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## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

I know. I'm just being indecisive cause it's a lot of money. It's not that I can't afford it. But I don't take spending many hundreds lightly (until I win the lottery) and so am looking for a perfect solution I won't find.


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## Apatche64 (Jun 24, 2017)

Just to help , I upgraded from the duo temp pro and the dual boiler is a vastly better machine. The niche grinder is awesome compared to the mignon grinder I had before .

i am an indecisive person, but my decision to go sage dB was a good one.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Apatche64 said:


> Just to help , I upgraded from the duo temp pro and the dual boiler is a vastly better machine. The niche grinder is awesome compared to the mignon grinder I had before .
> 
> i am an indecisive person, but my decision to go sage dB was a good one.


 Just for clarity - the Sage Duo Temp Pro will have very similar internals to many of the single boiler machines he's quoting (all of them?). The Duo Temp is basically a barista express without a grinder bolted on.


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## AlanB1976 (Jul 16, 2019)

Ok, had a chat with my wife. No, not about the costs or counter space she'll be losing, don't be silly; but about if/how she will use it. She basically told me she doesn't care and that she'll drink instants if I don't make the coffee's (I think I married a neanderthal). So, a significant reason for considering the touch has been removed.

So....... Drum roll........ I will get myself the dual boiler (provided I can still get it at that price)

Thanks to all for helping with the decision and for bearing with me. I will post a separate thank you for those that have given up on the thread ?


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## bp1000 (Jun 29, 2019)

Why don't you just save half your money and get a barista express?

I don't think you could taste the difference between the single and dual boiler models.

You may as well put the extra money saved on a really good grinder, unless you need the high use / dual boiler functionality.


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