# Don't suggest me a light roast



## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Right.

As some of you might know I've started my espresso journey recently. I've been pretty adventurous in bean selection, but I've gravitated mostly around medium roasts.

I don't know if I like lighter roasts yet, and I would like to find out. The closest I've been to going to the light side was with the following two beans, which to my knowledge are not light roasts by any stretch of the imagination (please correct me if I'm wrong) but closer to light than they are to dark:

This, which I quite liked and found intriguing, but it's not really something I'd drink as an espresso, maybe too "boozy". Absolutely fantastic with milk.

And this, which is perhaps less intriguing but I liked it more as espresso.

Preliminary evidence suggests that I don't quite like lemony notes, but I'm not entirely sure.

how can I go about understanding whether I like light roasts? My strategy, which I came up with just now, would be to:

- get two light roasts that are different (so I can possibly rule out just picking one I don't like)

- such light roasts should be something that are generally well liked, and "typical" of what a lighter roast could be, so nothing too out of the ordinary

Ideally the points above would allow me to select some good candidates.. However I would welcome any suggestion, possibly if there's some beans that more than one member agrees on then all the better.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Baffo You are the only one who knows your taste. I used to drink exclusively Medium Roasted coffee (checkout my username) 🙂 - Anything thing on the lighter side was just bland, meh, weak. However, if you get a decent lightly roast coffee, from a good roaster (Crafthouse is my favourite, but also like Foundry and North star) it's amazing. To the point that I only drink the stuff now. Anything towards medium/medium dark no longer works for me.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Few coffees have lemony notes, those that do tend to be very pricey.

If you want to stick to coffees that taste nice at 1:2.5, stick to medium/espresso roasts.

I only buy light roasts, still I often get medium (or darker), you're asking for something that is hard to consistently find. I can't even recommend a roaster that will consistently produce good, light roasts.

If you want something interesting, but not a Herculean challenge, try Illy Monoarabica Ethiopia, or espresso roasts the roaster recommends for 1:2-1:2.5.

Your Jx Pro is ideal as long as you have the elbow grease 

If you go ahead & end up with a light roast that is always sharp/tart, grind coarse & pull short (1:1.0-1:1.2, so that you get something at least drinkable & don't waste the bag.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @Baffo You are the only one who knows your taste. I used to drink exclusively Medium Roasted coffee (checkout my username) 🙂 - Anything thing on the lighter side was just bland, meh, weak. However, if you get a decent lightly roast coffee, from a good roaster (Crafthouse is my favourite, but also like Foundry and North star) it's amazing. To the point that I only drink the stuff now. Anything towards medium/medium dark no longer works for me.


 Well yes, only i know my taste, but having never tried light roasts, I can't really identify them (unless the roaster clearly specifies it), so looking for suggestions


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

MWJB said:


> Few coffees have lemony notes, those that do tend to be very pricey.
> 
> If you want to stick to coffees that taste nice at 1:2.5, stick to medium/espresso roasts.
> 
> ...


 Thanks Mark. About the ratios, I'm flexible. I can definitely say that at 1:3 (which is roughly what I brewed the above at for now) I'm definitely longing for some mouthfeel that I am (well, was, left Italy nearly 8 years ago now) used to.

This doesn't mean that I need such mouthfeel back, as @MediumRoastSteam suggested, taste preference can change over time.

Sure, maybe I'll stick to medium, or even go towards darker roasts. But that ain't happening until I try a handful of light roasts.

The grinder might not be the best, but I'm hoping that some long PI can get me to extract to the point where battery acid ends and sweet dreams start. I'll keep in mind to look for coffees from Yirgacheffe as the one you mentioned, I've seen such region mentioned a few times.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Baffo said:


> The grinder might not be the best, but I'm hoping that some long PI can get me to extract to the point where battery acid ends and sweet dreams start. I'll keep in mind to look for coffees from Yirgacheffe as the one you mentioned, I've seen such region mentioned a few times.


 Stop running down the grinder, there's not going to be a magic bullet there. Your grinder is totally normal/functional/acceptable.

1:3 isn't that "flexible". If you're worried about mouth feel & you want light roasts go short, fast (10-15s) ristretto. Trying to hit the big hump at <1:3 is massochism. I start at 1:5 with light roasts & work shorter *if* I can.

"Battery acid" - you're under-extracting, most likely because the ratio is too short. Even if you get the extraction up into range, light African beans can still be overly sharp. This is not a description of the notes of the Mandela you mentioned, its a description of a brew malfunction.

I'll be clear, I didn't say "try any old Yirgacheffe", I said try the Illy one  It's a gentler ice-breaker. Some of the most disgusting coffees I've ever had have been Yirgacheffes....some of the better ones too, but don't put all your faith in just being a specific region. Coffees from here vary massively and also by roaster interpretation.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

MWJB said:


> Stop running down the grinder, there's not going to be a magic bullet there. Your grinder is totally normal/functional/acceptable.
> 
> 1:3 isn't that "flexible". If you're worried about mouth feel & you want light roasts go short, fast (10-15s) ristretto. Trying to hit the big hump at <1:3 is massochism. I start at 1:5 with light roasts & work shorter *if* I can.
> 
> ...


 No worries. The mention about battery acid was definitely not the case for the Mandela, or the other. It was more of a figure of speech 

Likewise I've mentioned I am not worried about mouthfeel, again, just mentioned it as a side note.

And yes I'm not putting all of my faith in one region, as i mentioned in the OP, I wanted at least two suggestions of beans that were different in flavour.

I'll edit my original post so that there's no doubt as to what I'm trying to achieve and no additional narrative is provided.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Baffo I think with light roasts, they can be OK if they are properly developed and not just spending less time in the roaster. I personally prefer my coffees slightly darker than many light roasts and prefer 1st crack to have completed (or almost completed).....up to around 30-40s after 1st.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Baffo I think with light roasts, they can be OK if they are properly developed and not just spending less time in the roaster. I personally prefer my coffees slightly darker than many light roasts and prefer 1st crack to have completed (or almost completed).....up to around 30-40s after 1st.


 The fact that you can be as precise in describing your taste preferences indicates that you've tried plenty of stuff. Which is what I'm looking to do


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

I'd recommend most anything by either Foundry or Crankhouse roasters.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

@MWJB Mark, I was re-reading and i got curious. I have one or two doses left of that La Esperanza Mandela.

Now, I'm hoping that having the Bianca I can flow profile my way into brewing it at 1:5, and I'm curious to try it. It's against all of my preconceived notions about espresso, but I'm very curious to try it to see what changes.

The question is, is it doable to try this on the Bianca, and if so, how should I tackle it? PI or no PI, what sort of "pressure profile"? Should I grind coarser/finer than I would normally do?

I know that it's a hard task to get this right, and I'm not asking for a magic recipe, just some indication if at all possible. And see, I am a good student, not one single mention of "time" in my post. I might question but I take learnings as well! (I don't even record the timings of my shots!)


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Meanwhile, @jeebsy had plenty of new beans but nothing that my s.o. fancied too much. Aside from this..

Beans look light, but what do I know.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Newsflash: I don't have taste buds.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Baffo Would actually love to see a photo of the beans, all I can see is a packet?


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Baffo Would actually love to see a photo of the beans, all I can see is a packet?


 Ha, didn't attach. Lighting isn't that great maybe. They're not *that* light maybe. I can't say.

Anyway, I really can't taste much, even with 30 sec preinfusion and 1:3, admittedly my taste buds aren't that great. Perhaps I do need to experiment with going above 1:3. Considering it's already three weeks old, I better get through it fast!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Baffo said:


> @MWJB Mark, I was re-reading and i got curious. I have one or two doses left of that La Esperanza Mandela.
> 
> Now, I'm hoping that having the Bianca I can flow profile my way into brewing it at 1:5, and I'm curious to try it. It's against all of my preconceived notions about espresso, but I'm very curious to try it to see what changes.
> 
> ...


 1:5 is within Illy & the SCAA espresso definitions.

Use a spouted PF (it won't be pretty with a naked) and whatever you're currently doing regarding pressure & PI. You don't need any particular attribute/gizmo. It's no harder than other shots, in fact easier than tasty 1:2 shots, just don't look at it (watch the scales).

Grind a bit coarser, my shots of 17-18g take 30s +/-3s FWIW.


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## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

MWJB said:


> 1:5 is within Illy & the SCAA espresso definitions.
> 
> Use a spouted PF (it won't be pretty with a naked) and whatever you're currently doing regarding pressure & PI. You don't need any particular attribute/gizmo. It's no harder than other shots, in fact easier than tasty 1:2 shots, just don't look at it (watch the scales).
> 
> Grind a bit coarser, my shots of 17-18g take 30s +/-3s FWIW.


 Wow 1:5 in 30s explains a lot. I was grinding finer to try to maintain 1:2 on my first attempt with lighter beans. Back to the drawing board...


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

MWJB said:


> 1:5 is within Illy & the SCAA espresso definitions.
> 
> Use a spouted PF (it won't be pretty with a naked) and whatever you're currently doing regarding pressure & PI. You don't need any particular attribute/gizmo. It's no harder than other shots, in fact easier than tasty 1:2 shots, just don't look at it (watch the scales).
> 
> Grind a bit coarser, my shots of 17-18g take 30s +/-3s FWIW.


 After 30s I'm usually barely done with preinfusion 😂😂


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Baffo Look pretty light to me, I won't go much lighter than that...the key thing is, they look well developed.


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@Baffo - Well if you think 1:5 is pushing the envelope, then how about 1:17? 😂

https://sprudge.com/know-deal-mahlkonig-releases-coffee-shot-guide-49634.html

Slightly more on topic, I also struggle to taste certain notes, not saying they aren't there but either my tastebuds or skills aren't up to it.

The guava one might be a bit "aspirational" for me, as to be honest I don't think actual guava fruit taste of that much either apart from a bit sweet...

I find lighter coffees with blueberry, tropical, pineapple, orange, red berries and cherry to stand a better chance of "doing what it says on the tin". I tend to prefer punchy natural processed beans that are not subtle.

For light roasts I normally try 1:3 to 1:4, giving a 20-25s preinfusion at around 2bar for a few grams out and then a ramp to 8-9bar. I have a paddle on my machine so roughly comparable to your Bianca.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Northern_Monkey said:


> @Baffo - Well if you think 1:5 is pushing the envelope, then how about 1:17? 😂
> 
> https://sprudge.com/know-deal-mahlkonig-releases-coffee-shot-guide-49634.html
> 
> ...


 1:17 would be admitting that I should've just gone to other brew methods rather than purchasing an espresso machine! 😂

But yes, tomorrow I will adventure beyond 1:3 and see what happens. I pretty much follow what you described with a long preinfusion, ramp up, and then a decline (which sometimes doesn't quite work if I'd ground too fine)


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## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

MWJB said:


> If you want to stick to coffees that taste nice at 1:2.5, stick to medium/espresso roasts.
> 
> I only buy light roasts, still I often get medium (or darker), you're asking for something that is hard to consistently find. I can't even recommend a roaster that will consistently produce good, light roasts.


 Faced with the same dilemma as Baffo, I decided to buy some beans from Tim Wendelboe which he had labelled espresso. They were very light (measured by my Tonino) but so well roasted (developed?) that they magically gave very good results at 1:2 brew ratios. The defining characteristics were clarity of flavours with utter absence of roasty notes.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

mathof said:


> that they magically gave very good results at 1:2 brew ratios


 Why "magically"?

Might be useful to say which beans they were?


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## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Why "magically"?
> 
> Might be useful to say which beans they were?





MWJB said:


> Why "magically"?
> 
> Might be useful to say which beans they were?


 By "magically" I wanted to indicate that although I've found Wendelboe beans, over the years, to be among the lightest I've encountered, they extracted much like darker beans from other roasters - no need for special PI or other procedures which I've often needed to employ with ultra-light beans. I don't recall the names of the various Wendelboe beans I've tried, but they would probably have been washed and from Central or South America.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

mathof said:


> By "magically" I wanted to indicate that although I've found Wendelboe beans, over the years, to be among the lightest I've encountered, they extracted much like darker beans from other roasters - no need for special PI or other procedures which I've often needed to employ with ultra-light beans. I don't recall the names of the various Wendelboe beans I've tried, but they would probably have been washed and from Central or South America.


 Cool, I think he does aim for 1:2 shots in his shop & while he says his filter & espresso roasts are getting closer, he does roast specifically for filter, and for espresso.

My sub with Wendelboe was for filter & generally good, but still varied in development.


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## joe.barista (Nov 12, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> @Baffo I think with light roasts, they can be OK if they are properly developed and not just spending less time in the roaster. I personally prefer my coffees slightly darker than many light roasts and prefer 1st crack to have completed (or almost completed).....up to around 30-40s after 1st.


 Good point well made by DavecUK. Conversation that centres around 'light' and 'dark' roasts can veer into the arbitrary. Good roast development is not so simply categorised by colour. A so called dark roast can be revoltingly underdeveloped if the application of gas whilst roasting is unskilled and poorly applied. Likewise, a good roaster can manipulate their tools so as to achieve incredible development whilst retaining light appearance. In short, development is key, not colouration.

Exquisitely developed, therefore balanced, flavourful and rich, coffee can be found from April Coffee Roasters. Roaster Patrik Rolf Karlsson is renowned for full development with exceptionally light appearing coffee. James Gourmet of Herefordshire are equally impressive in this field.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Today I've opened this one, again selected by my significant other.

https://www.thomsonscoffee.com/products/colombia-srz

Advertised as medium roast, and it surely doesn't look dark.

Brewed at 1:2.8, 92c, with some 10s preinfusion. Not that it matters, but the extraction looked great, suggesting that puck preparation was OK.

I wasn't really expecting to taste a hot chocolate with "milk chocolate, treacle, caramel", and I understand that some notes are just a moniker for some broad sensations. But I definitely could not tell any flavour note, it just tasted "like coffee". I couldn't say whether it was sweet or not. It surely didn't have much acidity, but if somebody was asking me to describe this, I'd be lost for words.

I'm doing my best not to be discouraged at my inability to pick flavours. I've never been that great at picking flavours in foods.

I wonder if more experience will help and over time my taste buds will improve at picking notes, or if I should "do something about this".

Perhaps brewing at 1:6 and higher would bring more clarity, but when I get to that point, I'm sure there's cheaper setups for brewed coffee than a dual boiler espresso machine..

Maybe I should go even lighter, as I'm assuming that floral and fruity flavours will be more of a "punch in the face", and even impaired taste buds will notice them.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

And, not that it should interest anyone, but just ordered a bag from the February lsol (I needed something unquestionably light along with some feedback. Made just sense to go with something like that).

This is going to be a decisive moment in my coffee tasting, you'll hear back from me in a few days 🤣


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