# L1 Pre-purchase question



## DavidBondy

As Coffeechap knows only too well (he having enabled it!), I am edging towards buying an L1 (which will mean my ECM Mechanika IV being sold shortly afterwards). I will go for the latest version with the wooden handles which I really like although I may have to get a wenge wooden handle made for my Torr Goldfinger as a result!

I do have what may be a really stupid question though ... with a pump machine I can extract as much or as little volume as I want just by leaving the pump on for a longer or shorter time. With a lever machine, I believe (correct me if I am wrong here!) that the chamber holds a finite amount of water which is not variable. How much? Is it a single or a double or what? Also, if I want to make more than one shot at the same time, is there a way of "depressurising" the machine so that I don't spray coffee grounds all over the kitchen?

I've got CC coming round to do some training / demonstrating when I get back from here (Israel) so the answers will surely become apparent, but I have had more than a few moments to ponder just these issues hence my question!

Also, what accessories would be recommended with the purchase of the machine? Naked? Tamper? I need to work out the all-up price.

Thanks in advance,

David


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## RoloD

Yes, the cylinder holds a finite amount of water which is just about enough for a full 60cc double but most LI users pull it short of that - just by pulling the cup away when the shot begins to blonde (or earlier if you want a ristretto). My doubles are probably closer to 54cc. For singles you can use a single basket (although I rarely make singles), again pulling the cup when appropriate.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'depressurising the machine' or 'more than one shot at the same time'. You can use the double spout if you want to make two singles, but you don't want to (and can't) interrupt the lever process once you release the handle. "spraying coffee grounds" is not an issue.

Yes, you need a tamper (standard size so no problems there - although the Londinium tamper looks particularly nice) and I find a naked portafilter useful for checking your extraction, but not essential.

I hope this helps.


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## 4085

Hi David, the chamber does hold a finite amount of water, probably around 40 mls but I may be wrong. The best mind set, is to pull singles all the time. You can get a triple basket and a twin spout but not enough water in the system to do it justice! I pull multiple shots regularly. All you need to do is once the lever has clicked back into its starting position, then the puck will dribble the water away, but you probably would not want to drink this bit anyway. If you gently turn the handle, but not enough to take it off, then you are slowly releasing the pressure which you will hear escape, then it is safe to take it off completely.

Just release it slowly and you will be fine. The only additions to think of are whether to go for the L2 steam arm which is longer and a naked, if you want one.


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## DavidBondy

Thanks RoloD!

That really does help! What I meant by depressurising (it is probably the wrong word!) is that once the shot has been extracted there must still be pressure inside the PF compared to the outside world. With a pump machine you depressurise by returning the switch to its starting position at which point the pressure is relieved and the excess water flows into the tray. If I extract a shot (single or double) on the L1 but need to make another straight away (say I have visitors), what happens when I remove the PF from the machine? Is it full of pressurised water?

David

I hope that this is clearer now!


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## DavidBondy

dfk41 said:


> Hi David, the chamber does hold a finite amount of water, probably around 40 mls but I may be wrong. The best mind set, is to pull singles all the time. You can get a triple basket and a twin spout but not enough water in the system to do it justice! I pull multiple shots regularly. All you need to do is once the lever has clicked back into its starting position, then the puck will dribble the water away, but you probably would not want to drink this bit anyway. If you gently turn the handle, but not enough to take it off, then you are slowly releasing the pressure which you will hear escape, then it is safe to take it off completely.
> 
> Just release it slowly and you will be fine. The only additions to think of are whether to go for the L2 steam arm which is longer and a naked, if you want one.


Thanks David. You have answered my questions even as I was replying to RoloD! I probably won't bother with the steam arm and I very rarely (almost never!) make milky drinks! I will get CC to demonstrate the removal technique when he visits!

DB


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## 4085

David, if you have your grind and tamp right then there ought not to be any spare water


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## Heligan

David, it sounds as though you and I are at the same stage, and both due to Coffeechap! I've got my training/demonstration with him at the weekend, so next week will be decision time. Funnily enough I was going to post asking the same questions as you re accessories. I'll probably go for the bottomless portafilter too, and I'm also wondering if the other steam tips would make life easier initially, either the 4 x 1.0mm or even the 2 x 1.0mm.

Jane


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## 4085

Heligan, the standard 4 hole tip is easy to use, once you have the technique!


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## Heligan

dfk41 said:


> Heligan, the standard 4 hole tip is easy to use, *once* you have the technique!


There's the rub!


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## DavidBondy

Jane,

You know what ... CC just fancies a jaunt down to Cornwall! He will, I am sure show you the technique that David refers to!

DB


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## Heligan

DavidBondy said:


> Jane,
> 
> You know what ... CC just fancies a jaunt down to Cornwall! He will, I am sure show you the technique that David refers to!
> 
> DB


Unfortunately he doesn't get the jaunt as we're meeting elsewhere! Lovely day down here today though. I'm building a list of questions for him and already have a spreadsheet of costs...


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## RoloD

DavidBondy said:


> That really does help! What I meant by depressurising (it is probably the wrong word!) is that once the shot has been extracted there must still be pressure inside the PF compared to the outside world. With a pump machine you depressurise by returning the switch to its starting position at which point the pressure is relieved and the excess water flows into the tray. If I extract a shot (single or double) on the L1 but need to make another straight away (say I have visitors), what happens when I remove the PF from the machine? Is it full of pressurised water?


 It works slightly differently with a lever as the pressure decreases during the course of the extraction. If you take off the portafilter immediately you do get a slight portafilter 'sneeze' (nothing too dramatic if you have the knack of releasing the pressure as you twist) but it really a matter of waiting, say, 30 seconds and then there are no problems at all.


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## Mrboots2u

Hi looking at some of the user experiences on the londinium site people are dosing 20g and getting plus 30g extractions from the larger ism baskets for bigger milk drinks .

I personally wouldn't do this,as, all the time , as I think that those bigger doses can flatten the taste profile on some beans.

I have pulled some bigger shots by doing a second lever move , I do this infrequently and depending on the type of bean .

Dose and pull to a extraction ratio of 1.6 and you'll make great coffee. Don't worry about the volume it makes. It will taste great .

A hour with Dave will be better spent that reading our replies







.

Equipment wise

Naked PF , IMS basket( Reiss is bigging these up currently ) , decent tamper ( I love a convex trapez torr ) , scales .

Londinium tamper is nice but is flat base , not convex.


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## RoloD

Mrboots2u said:


> Hi looking at some of the user experiences on the londinium site people are dosing 20g and getting plus 30g extractions from the larger ism baskets for bigger milk drinks .
> 
> I personally wouldn't do this,as, all the time , as I think that those bigger doses can flatten the taste profile on some beans.
> 
> I have pulled some bigger shots by doing a second lever move , I do this infrequently and depending on the type of bean .
> 
> Dose and pull to a extraction ratio of 1.6 and you'll make great coffee. Don't worry about the volume it makes. It will taste great .
> 
> Equipment wise
> 
> Naked PF , IMS basket( Reiss is bigging these up currently ) , decent tamper ( I love a convex trapez torr ) , scales .
> 
> Londinium tamper is nice but is flat base , not convex.


I agree - I usually does around 15g and in approximately that ratio. The big thing about the Londinium is that it is forgiving - even if the dose/ratio is not ideal, you seldom get a bad cup.

Convex tampers? Hmm. Not convinced.


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## Mrboots2u

I have a flat base too, i just gravitate towards the convex more. The Londinium tamper was a very tight fit for the VST. I think it has a little more wiggles room with the IMS basket , apparently, but haven't used it myself.


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## coffeechap

It is a bit of a misconception that the L1 is only capable of short shots of coffee, I have been playing with big doses and Fellini moves recently, and pulling some much longer extractions on lighter roasted beans. Provided the integrity of the puck is not broken, you can load about 90 ml of water behind the puck no problem, thus giving longer extractions. I have been getting some great results from a 22g VST, but it does take practice to get this right.

Steam tip wise, the two hole is super easy to use, my preference is the 4 x 1 mm as I finds or low volume milk the 1.2 holes are slightly too aggressive.

David, I rarely have any sneezing on the l1 and most pressure has dissipated at the end of the shot as the spring is then fully uncompressed.


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## Mrboots2u

I have only has sneezing in very dark roasts where I have gone the grind wrong . Other than that by the I've steamed my milk or drink my espresso it's gone .

what tip is supplied as standard for the l1 now CC?


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## sjenner

Mrboots2u said:


> Hi looking at some of the user experiences on the londinium site people are dosing 20g and getting plus 30g extractions from the larger ism baskets for bigger milk drinks .
> 
> I personally wouldn't do this,as, all the time , as I think that those bigger doses can flatten the taste profile on some beans.
> 
> I have pulled some bigger shots by doing a second lever move , I do this infrequently and depending on the type of bean .
> 
> Dose and pull to a extraction ratio of 1.6 and you'll make great coffee. Don't worry about the volume it makes. It will taste great .
> 
> A hour with Dave will be better spent that reading our replies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Equipment wise
> 
> Naked PF , IMS basket( Reiss is bigging these up currently ) , decent tamper ( I love a convex trapez torr ) , scales .
> 
> Londinium tamper is nice but is flat base , not convex.


I gave Reiss the IMS baskets last week, he bought me a pizza and gave me a splendid apron







. He initially loved the small one 16-20gm (I think), but hated the big 18-22gm one. I pointed out that the big one is really for people that like the occasional large 10oz "flavoured milk drink", last night he conceded that this basket is indeed "very good" for such an application.

I know that David is not an imbiber, so the small 16-20gm IMS Competizione is the only (almost) obligatory IMS basket, though it is not the stock basket... and this basket will also make splendid 6-8oz (white drinks)...

N.B. In my purchase, there were two stock baskets, a single and a double, and they are in Reiss's view, the best and most forgiving baskets for the new owner.

As for "the sneeze", this is easily accommodated once one is used to it, and it only applies when trying to make drinks quickly. The good part is that the dirty coffee water that is left over, tends to want to come out of the group, rather than hide somewhere, so back-flushing, apart from being impossible is unnecessary anyway. Rather at the end of a drink making session, a short flush clears the shower screen of any crud and ensures that the Londinium thermal syphon maintains equilibrium. It is this thermal syphon that keeps the L1 at the optimum temperature, so that one can literally walk up to it and pull a shot.


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## Mrboots2u

Hi stephen

love the reference to Reiss " conceding " . Hope you don't mind me paraphrasing your posts for the londinium site on here too much


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## sjenner

Mrboots2u said:


> Hi stephen
> 
> love the reference to Reiss " conceding " . Hope you don't mind me paraphrasing your posts for the londinium site on here too much


Yes Martin, "concede" is just a degree (or smidgen) above "concur" I would suggest...








.


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## Mrboots2u

sjenner said:


> Yes Martin, "concede" is just a degree above "concur" I would suggest...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I bow to your skills , did you get a trophy ?


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## sjenner

Mrboots2u said:


> I bow to your skills , did you get a trophy ?


Only the best pizza known to man...









http://braviragazzipizzeria.co.uk

(I hope it isn't against the rules to post that URL?)


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## Mrboots2u

sjenner said:


> Only the best pizza known to man...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://braviragazzipizzeria.co.uk
> 
> (I hope it isn't against the rules to post that URL?)


I think it's ok ......we don't have many pizza companies as sponsors .


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## Charliej

Just to correct something here the IMS baskets for 58mm pf none Gaggia machines are 12-18g, 14-20g and 18-22g, I think at the moment I prefer the IMS 14-20g over my VST 20g. As pretty much all the group buy stuff has been posted out bar a couple of people who as yet have not sent me any mailing address we should soon start to accumulate a body of knowledge regarding them.


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## sjenner

Charliej said:


> Just to correct something here the IMS baskets for 58mm pf none Gaggia machines are 12-18g, 14-20g and 18-22g, I think at the moment I prefer the IMS 14-20g over my VST 20g. As pretty much all the group buy stuff has been posted out bar a couple of people who as yet have not sent me any mailing address we should soon start to accumulate a body of knowledge regarding them.


The 58mm non-gaggia IMS Competizione basket that I have is definitely 16-20gms Charlie...

http://www.imsfiltri.com/filtri/b70-2t-h26-5-m/?lang=en

But you may be referring to something else.


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## Charliej

Nope we're actually talking about the same basket LF who are the sole distributors for IMS are describing it as 14/20 in their catalogue


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## AndyS

Charliej said:


> I think at the moment I prefer the IMS 14-20g over my VST 20g.


[usual disclosure: I have no financial interest in VST. I was a beta tester in the development of the VST filter baskets and I am prejudiced about this issue







]

One of the driving factors behind VST's research into filter baskets was the poor quality control of the filters that were being sold at the time. IMS was one of the main culprits.

After VST filters were introduced (and adopted by the major barista competitions and numerous high-end cafes), IMS and other vendors went back to the drawing board and brought their own "precision," "high-quality," and/or "competition" filters to market. From what I've seen none of these other filters were developed or are being manufactured in the way the VSTs were and are.

1. Development: VST filters were designed using very rigorous and detailed criteria to provide evenly high yields while preserving effective filtering of fines. It's not clear how competing filters were designed.

2. Manufacturing: VST's undergo stringent quality control; a significant number of filters are rejected and not sold. As far as I've read, competing manufacturers pretty much say, "trust me, our filters are good." The upshot is that every VST filter of a given size performs the same as every other one. If you prefer the pours you're getting from your IMS 14-20g that's absolutely your privilege, but it's not clear how the bad IMS's get culled out. EVERY large-quantity manufacturing operation -- including IMS -- produces bad pieces; the "trust me" explanation is exactly how filter baskets got so crappy in the first place.

3. VST's weren't designed to produce pretty bottomless pours. Under pressure their heavier, more rigid construction doesn't bow out as much as other filters, so the pours don't quickly follow the curve and consolidate into a single stream. If you want pretty pictures, a light weight basket with perforations clustered more in the center of the bottom surface will make people ooh and aah. But if you want to extract evenly, thoroughly and tastily, making picture-perfect pours is a minor consideration.

IMHO, of course.


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## sjenner

Charliej said:


> Nope we're actually talking about the same basket LF who are the sole distributors for IMS are describing it as 14/20 in their catalogue


Then they must have got it wrong Charlie because on the IMS website where they are made, the basket is described as 16/20 gr.

AndyS wrote:



> Development: VST filters were designed using very rigorous and detailed criteria to provide evenly high yields while preserving effective filtering of fines. It's not clear how competing filters were designed.


Interesting then that my two 18gr VST baskets have 17gr printed on them and one is slightly bigger than the other... I also have a 15 gr VST and I had terrible trouble getting a good pour out of any of them.

In my defence, I will point out that I only persevered for about 8 months, and then the IMS basket, particularly the 16/20 one came along and that is an excellent basket, also (in my view only) the 18/22gr which does have your round bottom, is good for making an 8oz+ milky coffee in the early AM.

I do take the point that until VST found a different way to market their wares, very little attention was paid to the humble basket.

The reality of course is that everyone has their preference, and that usually comes about through using a particular basket regularly and getting used to its quirks.


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## AndyS

sjenner said:


> Interesting then that my two 18gr VST baskets have 17gr printed on them and one is slightly bigger than the other


I am told in this instance a worker made a typographic error punching data into the machine that engraves the filters. Unfortunately, typographic errors happen, just as with the IMS nomenclature issue that you and Charlie mentioned.

As far as the sizing is concerned, you aren't specific about what the difference is exactly. But if it's an issue for you, the VST's are warranted to meet specifications for one year after purchase, so you might contact the vendor and return the non-conforming filter.



sjenner said:


> I do take the point that until VST found a different way to market their wares, very little attention was paid to the humble basket.


I believe you're being slyly cynical here. Obviously VST didn't just find a different way to "market" their wares, they also found different ways to design, engineer, manufacture, test for quality, reject non-conforming units, warranty, track, package, AND market.



sjenner said:


> The reality of course is that everyone has their preference, and that usually comes about through using a particular basket regularly and getting used to its quirks.


I agree 100%. Unfortunately a tiny minority of users have made comments to the effect of, "if you don't like basket XYZ you aren't a competent barista." This is ridiculous; everyone's equipment, taste, technique and needs vary. That said, although I feel the VST's require a little more care in technique, the payoff for me has been rich.


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## lespresso

And VSTs are 'precisely' made in China

Nothing wrong with that of course, just you don't read much about


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## coffeechap

That's interesting they give the impression they are manufactured in the states!!!


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## lespresso

IMS form their straight sided baskets in their competition range with a convex base

They specifically refer to this feature in their literature as being intended to achieve an optimal extraction

IMS tapered baskets, also in their competition range, are pressed with a flat base

This deliberate difference suggests to me that IMS consider straight sided baskets perform better with a convex base

Given the convex base shape is pressed into the basket at manufacture, this is a separate issue from the convex shape that flat based baskets adapt after prolonged use, including my VST 18g ridgeless

If VST baskets really shouldn't go from flat to convex in the base with use Andy, then should everyone around the globe be returning all the VST baskets they hold that have gone convex in the base to the place of purchase for replacement?


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## Charliej

Just to add to this as I think Andy may have got the impression I was saying that the VST baskets were no good, when in fact they are all I have used for the past 2 years,I'll certainly be keeping hold of them as it's always nice to have more options, the current beans I'm on work better FOR ME in the IMS basket and that is using a spouted pf as naked's aren't available for my machine.


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## AndyS

lespresso said:


> IMS consider straight sided baskets perform better with a convex base
> 
> Given the convex base shape is pressed into the basket at manufacture, this is a separate issue from the convex shape that flat based baskets adapt after prolonged use, including my VST 18g ridgeless
> 
> If VST baskets really shouldn't go from flat to convex in the base with use Andy, then should everyone around the globe be returning all the VST baskets they hold that have gone convex in the base to the place of purchase for replacement?


The bottom surface of any filter basket, when stressed by over 200 kg of force in an espresso machine, becomes slightly convex. With repeated cycling the surface will remain slightly convex. My observation is that VST filters remain flatter after a couple years of use than did my older, lighter-duty filters. This is why I said about the VST's, "their heavier, more rigid construction doesn't bow out *as much as* other filters."

This was an informal observation offered as part of the explanation why bottomless VST pours tend to be less "pretty" than pours with some other filters. That is all I meant to imply, and since I certainly don't speak for VST in any official capacity, it is my personal opinion only.

Meanwhile, I don't think the warranty issue that you postulate is a valid one. If you read VST's specification, it simply says, "Improved structural integrity; will withstand deflection from pump cycling without premature structural failures." I don't believe there's a warranty for how many tenths of a millimeter the basket may or may not deflect.


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## AndyS

Charliej said:


> Just to add to this as I think Andy may have got the impression I was saying that the VST baskets were no good, when in fact they are all I have used for the past 2 years,I'll certainly be keeping hold of them as it's always nice to have more options, the current beans I'm on work better FOR ME in the IMS basket and that is using a spouted pf as naked's aren't available for my machine.


Understood, Charlie, thanks. I am interested in trying the IMS baskets but as yet I'm not sure where to buy them in the states.


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## The Systemic Kid

AndyS said:


> Understood, Charlie, thanks. I am interested in trying the IMS baskets but as yet I'm not sure where to buy them in the states.


Sure we could get some to you Andy if you can't get them in the States. Let us know.


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## Charliej

I have seen them recently on one of the USA retailer's website but anywhere that deals with LF shpuld be able to get them as they have the sole distribution rights for the screens and baskets


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## AndyS

The Systemic Kid said:


> Sure we could get some to you Andy if you can't get them in the States. Let us know.





Charliej said:


> I have seen them recently on one of the USA retailer's website but anywhere that deals with LF shpuld be able to get them as they have the sole distribution rights for the screens and baskets


Thanks, guys, I will look around for a US importer. As you know, I'm a fan of the VST filters but am curious about the new IMS.


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## glevum

On average, whats the wait time from purchase to delivery on an L1?


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## Mrboots2u

glevum said:


> On average, whats the wait time from purchase to delivery on an L1?


Depends , he was getting to or had reached the point of having them in stock , meaning they were ready to go from order .

Anyone interested I'd drop him an emails etc


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## coffeechap

glevum said:


> On average, whats the wait time from purchase to delivery on an L1?


Late response I know, but the l1 is now pretty much an on the shelf item....


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