# Anyone tempted by a Vesuvius?



## michaelg (Jul 25, 2013)

They're not cheap mind you;

http://blog.bellabarista.co.uk/index.php/the-new-vesuvius-espresso-coffee-machine/


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I know BB are very very excited by this machine. It is expensive buy if I were a pump man, then thats what I would be aspiring to I think!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Interesting specification - do you know how much?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

For that kind of money I'd want something a bit more stylish , that blue LCD read out is awful.

befoee you say it I know the l1 is a box with a lever but I like the retro look , just not the 1980s retro look .

i genuinely don't think I have the time or the brain power to play around endlessly with dose , preinfusion time , temperature , pre infusion temperature etc.

i know it appeals to others , they have less fudge for brains than me and better taste buds.

i could just see myself with one and asking Gary d , how do I make this coffee taste good !


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Its beautiful!! Plus a number of good/new features


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The looks you will love or hate, but, you have all the features of a top end machine, if that appeals to you!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Holy crapsticks thats expensive.

Thats getting towards speedster territory...

Funnily enough I would guess its closest equivalent would be the Sage DB.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

kikapu said:


> Its beautiful!! Plus a number of good/new features


That blue display reminds me of an alarm clock or something from a crappy teasmaid....


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Ok this has got to be the next raffle prize !


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> That blue display reminds me of an alarm clock or something from a crappy teasmaid....


Don't knock the teasmaid They still have a loyal following!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

CamV6 said:


> Ok this has got to be the next raffle prize !


Not when you see the price - tickets would have to be £50+ - gulp!


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> That blue display reminds me of an alarm clock or something from a crappy teasmaid....


I like a bit of blue! And you obviously didn't read the description properly it says "Display is touch screen and the colour and contrast can be changed" What colour would you like??


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

i can tell you now, this is amazing machine. It is an ugly duckling so people will judge it initially on looks alone, which is daft unless you are buying something nice for your kitchen, in which case naff off and buy a Sage or kitchenaid machine! This is expensive and for serious coffee lovers who want all the Slayer/GS3 type controls for less money


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Well I think we need to get one for the forum to test and review!!

I will volunteer!!


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## michaelg (Jul 25, 2013)

I think it's quite nice although I would probably want to take a few weeks off work, one type of beans only and experiment to find the optimum conditions! Then get frustrated that the aging of the beans means that test conditions weren't exactly the same each day. Plus why haven't I slept in 4 days solid!


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Where is everyone finding price info? all I could find is 1 Aussie site saying it's less than half slayer price


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

At the end of the day of you wanna play with all the variables , on paper it looks well priced versus similar machines .

no one has used one yet , so I'd wait till someone has before it gets classed as amazing etc.

lots of electronics means more to break .....

however buys one , if the grind and dose and distribution skills are still lacking , the coffee will still suck









if anyone up north takes a punt , I'd love to have a demo.

wont be me though









unless CC does one for a raffle of course , and I win , then it will be the best thing ever


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## michaelg (Jul 25, 2013)

Think first 5 are £2995 or so then up to £3200 I think I read on BB Facebook page


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

Tempted! Yes indeed! I don't think it's ugly!! Should I reconsider the L1? Hmmm. Not sure!!!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

D_Evans said:


> Holy crapsticks thats expensive.
> 
> Thats getting towards speedster territory...
> 
> Funnily enough I would guess its closest equivalent would be the Sage DB.


Not really as the closest tip this is the gs3


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

And watch this space for a fully demo


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Even at £3.2k thats cheaper than a GS3 as well isn't it?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> And watch this space for a fully demo


Alright fingers ....managing to type ok then?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Interesting looking machine doesnt stray too far from the usual e61/shiny/Italian look we have all seen before , but the pump and electronics sound interesting. An interesting test would be this machine and an EK43


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Charliej said:


> Even at £3.2k thats cheaper than a GS3 as well isn't it?


Yep , how many people have spunked up money for them on here though.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I'll volunteer for the Sage vs Vesuvius shootout, although even if offered the same discount rate on one of those as the Sage it would still be very pricy lol.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Charliej said:


> I'll volunteer for the Sage vs Vesuvius shootout, although even if offered the same discount rate on one of those as the Sage it would still be very pricy lol.


I think given gary d yearning for a gs3 profiling machine I'd like to see him benchmark it against the sage .

but before that I'd like to see it on the bench of the chap , for a full detailed going over .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Charliej said:


> I'll volunteer for the Sage vs Vesuvius shootout, although even if offered the same discount rate on one of those as the Sage it would still be very pricy lol.


Did you get the sage cheap the Charlie , I'm not sure I've notice you mention that before







.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Interesting looking machine doesnt stray too far from the usual e61/shiny/Italian look we have all seen before , but the pump and electronics sound interesting. An interesting test would be this machine and an EK43


OK - I'll ask Claudette if she wants to loan me one


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rodney has one on his bench at home. I am sure he would invite any seriously interested parties over


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I really like the idea of that machine. Well out of my price range though. It genuinely is a check list of almost everything you could want from a pump driven machine. I want it ugly or not.


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## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

Looks like a lot of tinkering with the extra features to get a feel of what you like a coffee to taste like, it's even supposed to have the same bar pressure to that of a lever machine! Hmm! Not sure, need to see the review video by Rodney. I wonder if they could loan one out to one of our honourable forum members, for the purpose of review?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I suppose I had better spills the beans now :

I have been in talks with BellaB regarding a test period on this machine









Will keep y'all posted.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> I suppose I had better spills the beans now :
> 
> I have been in talks with BellaB regarding a test period on this machine
> 
> ...


yay I want clips Gary

for that there yooootube please


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Having seen the Vesuvius specs I'm very keen to try one.

Very happy with my Alex Duetto. However, this could be an upgrade (on the way to a KvdW Speedster or a GS3)


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Agreed that this thing is no looker but if the tech works then it'll be very interesting indeed! Looking forward to seeing what happens when some of you guys get hands on.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Plus 1 for that.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)




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## innatelogic (Jan 26, 2014)

Is it bad that I prefer the looks of the gaggia classic to these chromed lever and knob adorned E61 style machines? Sorry.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

innatelogic said:


> Is it bad that I prefer the looks of the gaggia classic to these chromed lever and knob adorned E61 style machines? Sorry.


I think that the classic is a great looking machine.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

That's why it is the classic


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What's a classi


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

Great to see that the technology in home machines seems to be ramping up a notch. Ultimately machines like this and the Sage will make other manufacturers think outside the box a little bit more


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

I see a touch panel - I see something to go wrong in 2 or 3 years then be a nightmare to sort. Worse, I see it breaking in 10 years when the company is out of business or not supporting this model. That's why if I am ever lucky enough to have the money, I'll get a Londinium I. Great quality and easily serviceable if it breaks in the long run, less to go wrong etc. Ok you can't play with pressure profiles and the like but I will never afford something that expensive that I can't guarantee support for over the years.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Rodney has one on his bench at home. I am sure he would invite any seriously interested parties over


Well.....no, he hasn't....I got it Yesterday morning, been playing around with it all day.






Not sure how long I'll have it for, hopefully it will be long enough to get a really good feel for it.....and that usually takes me a while as you may know. Besides, I got to start taking it to pieces next!


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## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Well.....no, he hasn't....I got it Yesterday morning, been playing around with it all day.


Hi Dave,

What are your first impressions of this machine?

Cheers,

Paolo5


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Paolo5 said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> What are your first impressions of this machine?
> 
> ...


Well it's a prototype and still needs some changes before coming to market...but overall very favourable so far. It produces great coffee (pressure profiling works!), temperature stability is good but it uses the tried and tested magic formula for the E61 with a DB (as per my advice to Izzo with the first Duetto), so it would be good. Steaming is awesome. it's going to be expensive and beyond the reach of some, beyond the mental willingness of others...but there will be a market. As for size, dimensionally it is larger than a Duetto, being 5cm wider and 5cm deeper, but about the same height.

I'm enjoying using it and I wish I could own one.....however with 3 Dual boiler machines in my stable and 1 non E61 HX, that would be just greedy, and perhaps I come under the category of "mentally unwilling". I do love it though, I love the sound it makes, I love using it, I love playing with the pressure profiles and I love steaming with it. I have given some detailed feedback to the manufacturer on things that need changing before it's manufactured. However, it's going to be good, very good.

*The one thing I don't like, really, really don't like....I wish I had never seen it, because I want one and I'm going to be very jealous of people who get to own one....yes, I'm hating the designers right now!*


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

DavecUK said:


> Well it's a prototype and still needs some changes before coming to market...but overall very favourable so far. It produces great coffee (pressure profiling works!), temperature stability is good but it uses the tried and tested magic formula for the E61 with a DB (as per my advice to Izzo with the first Duetto), so it would be good. Steaming is awesome. it's going to be expensive and beyond the reach of some, beyond the mental willingness of others...but there will be a market. As for size, dimensionally it is larger than a Duetto, being 5cm wider and 5cm deeper, but about the same height.
> 
> I'm enjoying using it and I wish I could own one.....however with 3 Dual boiler machines in my stable and 1 non E61 HX, that would be just greedy, and perhaps I come under the category of "mentally unwilling". I do love it though, I love the sound it makes, I love using it, I love playing with the pressure profiles and I love steaming with it. I have given some detailed feedback to the manufacturer on things that need changing before it's manufactred. However, it's going to be good, very good.
> 
> *The one thing I don't like, really, really don't like....I wish I had never seen it, because I want one and I'm going to be very jealous of people who get to own one....yes, I'm hating the designers right now!*


Cant wait to put it through its paces : )


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Cant wait to put it through its paces : )


Any dates yet? Need to come and play!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Cant wait to put it through its paces : )


Well your going to have to wait a little longer, although I've done my Kung Fu style deep dive engineering review and had the 4 way Skype conversation with everyone. I want to hang on to it for a bit and at least enjoy it before it goes back. I think this one will then be re-engineered a little before going anywhere so as to be closer to the spec of the next 2 coming. it's going to be nice just to kick back and relax with it.

I'd love to be able to tell your what's coming...but, I can't, partly because they're investigating what's possible (out of my big list) and partly because its...









Also, if your buying one, "I now hate you and am officially jealous".


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I dont mind waiting if its worth it ; )


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## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Hi Dave,

Can you please tell me:-

1)if the steam boiler can be temporarily turned off for sessions when you don't need it and

2)how long the Vesuvius takes to properly warm up from a cold start?

I find the concept of this machine ingenious and potentially a world-beater....my only real concern is the durability of the electronic hardware items over time.

Are you aware of studies made of duty cycle testing on the electronic components of the Vesuvius in order to predict lifespans? Is the brushless magnetic pump generally longer-lasting than a conventional pump? (On the weekend I replaced the rotary pump on my LM Linea. My machine is 4 1/2 years old. A new pump for this machine is AUS$200. I would be hoping that a Vesuvius pump would run for far longer as I am certain that it would be much more costly.)

I think that these sorts of questions would be in the back of most potential buyers' minds...and I don't know who else to ask. Hope that you can find/give me some answers to these questions.

Cheers,

Paolo5


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Paolo5 said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Can you please tell me:-
> 
> ...


1. Yes the steam boiler can be switched off when not required., but there are some other features under development for the launch machines that may make the requirement to switch the steam boiler off redundant.

2. The same length of time as any other E61 DB machine, although again there is a way to shorten this time significantly, I don't know whether that will be in the machines at launch, or as a firmware update later, or if the programmability of the system will allow for it.

The pump is motor is brushless and magnetically coupled to a stainless steel, high quality gear pump. the pump unit itself can be replaced independently of the motor unit if required. the pump is an MG304 (part of the MG300 series). The ones more usually used in coffee machines are the MG100 series gear pumps, but the 300 is of course much better nd leak proof because of no rotational seals. The pumps are used in medical applications such as kidney dialysis etc.. and are pretty reliable. FOT themselves describe it thusly "The service life of the unit, due to fewer moving parts and to the excellent balance of the system, is greatly extended compared to the traditional pump-motor units." The link below gives you more information on the FG300 series, which is the combination of a the motore and MG300 pump. The unit in the V9 is the more expensive one on the right (as it should be).

http://www.fluidotech.com/Contents/Documents/Data%20sheet%20new%20logo/Mag%20drive%20gear%20pumps-motor%20units%20FG200-FG300%20series.pdf.

That said anything can fail, luckily the pump and motors can be replaced independently. However, if I was asked to hazard a guess, I would think the pumps life would be significant probably 10-15 years or more in domestic use and might even equal the service life of the machine itself?

Unfortunately, because there have been a lot of discussions and point that require changing for the production models, you guys probably won't get to play with anything for at least 3 weeks.I'm hanging on to this one for a while, in case anything else occurs to me and to just get used to it. Those who know me, know when i review a machine (not so often nowadays), I like to spend at least 2 weeks with it, or longer. Also there is no benefit to the forum seeing this, because what eventually comes down the pipe, will be different to what I have. Also it's my chance to use a great machine for as long as I can







.

interestingly had a chat about branding today...so far the view is, it doesn't need any and shouldn't have any, as it speaks for itself....me I like the absolutely plain brand-less case.

P.S. Can't remember if i said, but the steaming....wow!


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## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Those who know me, know when i review a machine (not so often nowadays), I like to spend at least 2 weeks with it, or longer.


Many thanks for your reply, Dave. From what you said above here...am I correct in thinking that you are writing a formal review for the manufacturer's benefit (not forum members) or will it eventually be published like the ones that you did for the Cafemino and Duetto 1 and 2?

Cheers,

Paolo5


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Paolo5 said:


> Many thanks for your reply, Dave. From what you said above here...am I correct in thinking that you are writing a formal review for the manufacturer's benefit (not forum members) or will it eventually be published like the ones that you did for the Cafemino and Duetto 1 and 2?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Paolo5


The review I have done is an in depth engineering review, where i do everything I can to rip the machine to pieces and find every possible fault and nit pick every possible thing i can find. I do horrible things to the machine, simulate fault conditions, often have it sitting in pools of water. the only place I draw the line, is if I am quite sure I'm going to damage it. I try and find everything I can, before you do. Then I push them manufacturers to improve it, add stuff they should have added.

To give you some examples it could be something as simple as the length of the water wand, which side the steam wand is, the material used for the heating elements, up to the core programming and hardware of the machine. My conversation with the manufacturers is usually "You have made a really excellent machine, BUT, it's not ready for market yet!"....after that, it's everything i don't like and what they need to do to fix it.A lot of it can seem quite petty, much of it you guys will never see or be aware of. It would do the forum absolutely no good to see the report to the manufacturer ....and it's often not a pleasant experience for the manufacturer, who usually believes their machine is almost perfect and as ready as it will ever be....I'm thinking of a company that could be mistaken for making spaceships here!

I will eventually do a proper review on the machine.....when it's ready.


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## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Thanks Dave....


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Have to say I find this machine very interesting but.... How 'finished' are the versions with the retailers currently? I read on another forum (I think posted by you DavidC) that there are possible modifications planned to steam wands and similar hardware components. Firmware upgrades are ok but at this price I'd want an optimised product. Will early purchasers get subsequent hardware upgrades retrofitted? Can you shed any light David?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Obnic said:


> Have to say I find this machine very interesting but.... How 'finished' are the versions with the retailers currently? I read on another forum (I think posted by you DavidC) that there are possible modifications planned to steam wands and similar hardware components. Firmware upgrades are ok but at this price I'd want an optimised product. Will early purchasers get subsequent hardware upgrades retrofitted? Can you shed any light David?


it is a fluid situation, but my understanding is; there are 2 machines in the world....one in the factory in Italy on a bench, probably without it's side panels on, that they use for testing and prototyping.....the other is in my kitchen as a pre production prototype. So there is "nothing" with the retailers yet. My job is to identify the stuff you guys are not going to like and add stuff you will like...whether you know you need it or not. Some of it as I have said before...you will never, ever see...unless you get a problem (or don't get one because of it, then of course you will never know)

It's is mainly the hardware that I am worried about and specifically the critical hardware that you can't easily replace in the future should you want to. So things like; the side the steam wand is on, the length of the water wand, how the drip tray drains, stuff like that should be done before they go on sale. Some firmware changes should be incorporated by then, fortunately with firmware, more can follow later because as far as possible those need to be hardware independent.

There will be a small number of machines going to retailers soon and I do mean small. Outside of the UK, there will be 8 more machines only.* As i understand it these will be models for the dealers to use, demo and "possibly" sell to those mavericks who really want to have something no one else has*. A large portion of the critical hardware changes will be done on these machines. Some may not, but could be dealer retrofitted...others just might not be. I'm thinking here of things like the top cup tray rack, where we all want a better one, do they wait 2 months to find one then ship the 8 to dealers, or do they say, "lets ship em and send new racks on later". These "dealer machines" won't be bad at all, but may have some minor hardware differences to later retail product. Should you buy one if you get a good price on it....from what I know at the moment...yes, you're not going to lose out on much. You may not (probably won't) see a USB port on these early machines, the retailers will be able to upgrade them and I suppose, if your a skilled IT/DIYer, so will you.

At the moment the firmware can be flashed using a laptop, correct cable, and by removing a jumper on the main board. *The plan for Retail machines *is to make this via a USB port, so you don't have to remove the case and a standard USB cable can be used to reflash the firmware for new features. We looked at SD cards and Bluetooth, but I am afraid that the technology is not yet available in the coffee world to do this at a sensible cost to the consumer. So a USB cable will be fine.

So as long as they get the critical internal hardware that interfaces with the on board computer sorted, identified and in a stable configuration, the rest is just software which helps future proof the investment as new features become available e.g. the inclusion of hardware in the Retail product, that although not used at launch, may be used later, perhaps a year or more later.

So to summarise, my view is there will initially be 2 products:

Very Limited numer of *"Dealer machines"* soft launch and looking for any key feedback items

Later* "Retail Machines"*, hard launch of finished product....with firmware revisions to follow over the life of the machine

I can only speak from my own perspective, even the machine I have now, I would buy at the right price....because I think it does things no other prosumer machine is doing, works well, there is a lot of good stuff inside..and the coffee is excellent!

Dave

P.S. As always with any Retail machines, hardware can be subject to change for various reasons e.g. reliability, future availability, product modification. However, I don't think you mean these sort of changes


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Comprehensive and encouraging reply. Thanks Dave.


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## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> You may not (probably won't) see a USB port on these early machines, the retailers will be able to upgrade them and I suppose, if your a skilled IT/DIYer, so will you.
> 
> At the moment the firmware can be flashed using a laptop, correct cable, and by removing a jumper on the main board. *The plan for Retail machines *is to make this via a USB port, so you don't have to remove the case and a standard USB cable can be used to reflash the firmware for new features. We looked at SD cards and Bluetooth, but I am afraid that the technology is not yet available in the coffee world to do this at a sensible cost to the consumer. So a USB cable will be fine.


Thanks for your detailed explanation here, Dave. It is great to have an insight into this new machine.

I have never owned an espresso machine that runs firmware. The Vesuvius is indeed an advanced machine.... but I would have thought that Ambient would have made the fitting of a USB port a top priority for the demo/future sales machines that will generate future sales.

From a consumer's perspective...If I walked into a showroom and was told that "this machine runs firmware which can be updated and future machines will have a USB port located here" I would probably lose interest. On a machine that has such a premium price as the Vesuvius has, this explanation would have a hurried and compromised ring to it. I would wonder what other shortcuts the machine has had done to it to get it to market.

In my mind, this USB port (or whatever means decided on to connect the machine to a computer) needs to be there and functional when demonstrating a machine, as would all hardware components.

Cheers,

Paolo5


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## michaelg (Jul 25, 2013)

Top cameras have firmware updates - usually to update problems you might not have even been aware of as a normal user and it doesn't mean they've been rushed out or are a compromise. I think it's a bonus as you could gain access to new features or improvements to existing features at no extra cost so sounds quite interesting to the consumer with time to play with all the variables. To be realistic mind you, you'd probably have to be retired or be living off a trust fund to have the time to fully explore all the possible features here and optimises conditions for each bean unless coffee is your profession. Nice to have the options mind you!


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## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

michaelg said:


> Top cameras have firmware updates - usually to update problems you might not have even been aware of as a normal user and it doesn't mean they've been rushed out or are a compromise.
> 
> I think it's a bonus as you could gain access to new features or improvements to existing features at no extra cost so sounds quite interesting to the consumer with time to play with all the variables.


Hi Michaelg,

I have updated the firmware in a GPS unit and a media player. They both had the facility to connect to a computer without opening the case, disconnecting a wire and plugging in another wire....and then connecting to a computer. I didn't buy either product having the information that the product's functionality and features would soon be improved, as is the case with the Vesuvius.

I agree with you 100%....but do you have to crack the case etc. in the camera to do the upgrades?

Cheers,

Paolo5


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## michaelg (Jul 25, 2013)

I think the plan is to have a USB port - if it's a case of connecting a USB stick then sounds hassle free. Wouldn't buy one before that's added personally though so maybe I missed your initial point.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

michaelg said:


> Top cameras have firmware updates - usually to update problems you might not have even been aware of as a normal user and it doesn't mean they've been rushed out or are a compromise. I think it's a bonus as you could gain access to new features or improvements to existing features at no extra cost so sounds quite interesting to the consumer with time to play with all the variables. To be realistic mind you, you'd probably have to be retired or be living off a trust fund to have the time to fully explore all the possible features here and optimises conditions for each bean unless coffee is your profession. Nice to have the options mind you!


Well you sort of cover the whole point I've been trying to make for a long time with next generation machines....coffee shouldn't need to be your profession, the machine should have the programming to almost have a Barista and Technician at your side.....I think machines should be able to tell you, when to change your group gasket, when to refresh water in the steam boiler, or clean behind the shower screen...suggest the last shot was too large or too tight,perhaps too fast. Perhaps it should remember to do things for you, or remnd you of stuff...e.g. if you switch it on/off at the same general time each day, it should put these in memory all ready for you, if you ever decide to do timed operation.

There is lots a machine could do that maens you don't have to be an expert, you don't have to remember and it presents you with information when you need it. Sure, it's perhaps a way into the future, but it should be possible. Just think of the power of your average smartphone and what they can do.

One day, we won't think it unusual to switch on/off your coffee machine from your phone, as one of many smartphone enabled functions.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mine already does Dave. You are behind the times on this one.....LOL. Ok, cheating a little but using an Iphone nd a WEMO plug


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Mine already does Dave. You are behind the times on this one.....LOL. Ok, cheating a little but using an Iphone nd a WEMO plug


behind the times, cor if only you saw a document i produced nearly 3 years ago, when you were but a green bean in the roaster <lol>...Stuff that might be in machines in 5 years time, but all potentially doable today, by a company with strong wills and hugely deep pockets.</lol>


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Paolo5 said:


> I have never owned an espresso machine that runs firmware. The Vesuvius is indeed an advanced machine.... but I would have thought that Ambient would have made the fitting of a USB port a top priority for the demo/future sales machines that will generate future sales.
> 
> From a consumer's perspective...If I walked into a showroom and was told that "this machine runs firmware which can be updated and future machines will have a USB port located here" I would probably lose interest. On a machine that has such a premium price as the Vesuvius has, this explanation would have a hurried and compromised ring to it. I would wonder what other shortcuts the machine has had done to it to get it to market.
> 
> ...


I just felt compelled to answer this...

The aim is to get machines out to the dealers, so the first few "dealer machines" will have the ability to upgrade firmware and for these the top panel will have to be removed to access the plug (it's only 4 hex screws and takes a less than 30s). To upgrade the one I have here (the first one, pre production prototype), I can still do it, but I would have to plug into the board itself and remove a jumper to reflash...but i still could do it.

The "Retail Machines", that go on sale will have the same system as the dealer machines, but you will access it behind the hinged side panel, in the same way you would access the on/off switch or the water tank and plug in there. A laptop/notebook PC with a USB port will be required. You will use a USB to Serial (RS232 cable) and run the update program on the Laptop. This is all being tested at the moment.

*
Be under no illusions....the machine works, it does everything a normal Dual boiler machine does and more.....it definitely isn't compromised. However, I set a VERY high standard for the customer*. I have a 3D computer model on my PC, where I can actually break the machine down into it's component parts, to examine how every piece has been put together, removing piece by piece by piece and examine it from every angle....I can examine how everything fits. I wish I could show it to you guys, I even made a small video....but the company have asked me not to (commercial confidence). We are even down to the detail of moving a switch 5 cm or not, , length and position of water/steam wands etc.....or the specific feet to be used even though you can't see them! Areas of the machines anatomy, that you will probably never see were discussed, in the vein of "it's fine, but lets think about 5 years down the line, when someone needs to do some maintenance".

These guys had pretty much a finished machine with the pre-production model, it was going to be simply a matter of building it for sale with any minor changes....it was me who looked and said "It's great, but think you can do even better ".* I set them a target that no one could reach in a year let alone weeks, because it's good to know what the development path looks like,* I stated an ethos than anyone who buys a machine should be able to reflash the firmware for the new functions as they become available.. e.g. if the first Retail machines have 5 programmable pressure profiles and later the firmware is upgraded to have 9, or each profile has 5 stages, but is later upgraded to have 6 or 7 (pump capability dependent), then I felt is reasonable for the customer to have a simple method of upgrading if they want to, without having to ship machines back to the dealers. However "hurried and compromised", are very unfair comments to use for the Vesuvius

The things I am asking for are costing the company a LOT of money, but they are not being added to the cost of the machine (Ambient are absorbing the costs)....they could have told me to go and **** myself (because retailers are pushing to have them as they are), but they didn't. They are trying to make sure that everything possible is done so that early adopters DON'T miss out and have compromised machines vs those who come later.

I've dealt with many manufacturers of espresso machines....some know about problems and don't care, others don't listen at all, some listen, but only if you got a BIG order, Some listen and are frightened to do anything new. I won't name those companies, but Ambient is listening and trying their best to get it right.....we really do need a new manufacturer, new ideas and a willingness to listen in the Espresso machine market.

Bella Barista sell one or two espresso machines I consider expensive esoterica for a very limited market e.g. GS3 and the like, I have absolutely no interest in reviewing such machines and I have been asked, because it's just a waste of my personal time on a very limited market indeed.


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## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Thanks, Dave...the Vesuvius sounds like an awesome machine...


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Dave,

The USB to serial cable sounds like a bit of a bad idea, they can be very temperamental things, I have 4 different ones as some of the digital stuff I needed to control via my laptop when working would work with some but not others even when all drivers were correctly installed. If they could offer it simply as a USB port on the machine or include the cable that would be a lot better bearing in mind that these things are pretty hard to find for the average person unless they get one of the cheap and nasty Chinese ones off ebay and then it's like a lottery as to whether it will actually work or not.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Charliej said:


> Dave,
> 
> The USB to serial cable sounds like a bit of a bad idea, they can be very temperamental things, I have 4 different ones as some of the digital stuff I needed to control via my laptop when working would work with some but not others even when all drivers were correctly installed. If they could offer it simply as a USB port on the machine or include the cable that would be a lot better bearing in mind that these things are pretty hard to find for the average person unless they get one of the cheap and nasty Chinese ones off ebay and then it's like a lottery as to whether it will actually work or not.


There are plenty available of Amazon using the Protech (I think it is chipset)....The limitation here is simply the commercial "brain" board used, is very good quality and has been used and proven over many years....they have modified it slightly and are using custom firmware. However, the chipset of the commercial board being older and proven, only has certain facilities for reflashing, via a device that has a serial female (which will be built in to the machine)l and then USB to serial converters (as laptops no longer come with serial ports) used to flash from a laptop..

It keeps the hardware non- proprietary, commercially proven, reliable and available.....which is exactly what you want. it also doesn't have the massive overhead costs associated with producing your own proprietary board, plus the unproven nature of such a thing....so I believe it's the best way.

Once you got your method, you got it and if it means a £10 or less ( i have seen em for £2-3 cable), so be it....


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## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Hi Dave,

I know that it is early days with your Vesuvius but....

Have you found a new profile that "just works better" with most/all beans?

Have you found any profiles that work best with particular beans?

Can you describe the difference in flavours etc. when you pull a shot at a favourite new profile compared to the same beans with a standard 9bar shot?

Thanks,

Paolo5


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Paolo5 said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I know that it is early days with your Vesuvius but....
> 
> ...


1. No, still experimenting as theres a lot of possibilities, my Proflie 1 seems to be a reasonable all rounder at the moment. I'll have to go look and see what its doing in the stages. However I can say that profiles with a soft start and finish seem to work better than the normal quick ramp to 9 bar and hold of non pressure profiling machines.

2. That would take a very long time...I am sure there will be, but that's more a thing for lots of people to do and share/agree on

3. Smoother, less bitterness, slightly more clarity (but probably because not overshadowed by other flavour artifacts). The flavours profile is also richer/broader, if that makes any sense. The shots themselves are slightly more viscous with less problems at the end of a shot, it looks nicer at the end than a hard 9 bar finishing shot.

The differences are subtle, but they are there. Also you don't have to grind as fine, because there is less chance of channeling and early blonding toward the latter part of the shot (assuming a reducing pressure profile). it's also important to point out that the type of pressure profiling the FG300 series mag drive units do is quite different from the GS3 MP, or even one with the La Strada upgrade. Simply because they still have a standard rotary pump and are using a valve to control pressure.. it's not as accurate and increases fluid velocity within the valve. This Bernoulli effect has consequences which are complex and it's difficult to be sure what the effects might be in an Espresso machine.. I think it's fair to say that they may/may not be bad, but I can't see it being beneficial. Theres a simple explanation of what's going on in valves that control pressure in the link below.

http://www.valin.com/index.php/blog/14-fluid-management-/305-liquid-flow-in-control-valves-choked-flow-cavitation-and-flashing

The only machine that does the same thing (apart from the interface, programability, size and group type) is the multi group La Marzocco Strada EP machines, but i don't think these are suitable for home use and they cost from £8,500. I am given to understand that the Vesuvius uses the same gear pump and main board (although the Vesuvius has some small customisation and different firmware). I looked really hard and I can't find anything else that does what the Vesuvius does in terms of a prosumer machine.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Well just a small update, I've been using the Vesuvius for 5 weeks now and been experimenting quite a lot. Obviously the final retail machines will be slightly different to this machine, but the core of the system will be the same, the actual number of profile stages could well be extended, if not at launch, probably in firmware later....but the 5 stages per profile are working well for me at the moment.

I started looking around the internet for similar machines so I could get some tips, unfortunately, there is nothing like it except for the full La Strada EP multi group...the GS3 with the La Strada upgrade, doesn't quite do what this does as it retains the original rotary pump and motor as the standard GS3. So back to the La Strada EP, which uses a very similar pump (part of the same range), but slightly different motor, in essence though it's doing the same thing, but perhaps it's a little more hard core in terms of commercial use. No differences in controllability or pressure performance that I am aware of. There were some videos about the things they were trying with that, pressures startup preinfusion times and pressures...all good stuff. it was something for me to build on and try to replicate some of their ideas...which i was able to do.

so with pressure,I am peronally favouring a long presinfusion at 2 bar (8 seconds):with a rise to 9.5 bar:: for around 12 and drop to 8.2 bar for around 9:: and then 7 bar for 4s:: and 5 bar for 3s or to end of shot. This is allowing a nice extraction, without causing channeling, giving longer before blonding occurs and decreasing bitterness. Also in the La marzocco video, it suggested that these longer preinfusions could allow you to use a much finer grind. So I am also getting another grinder which should grind better at finer grinds than my mini E. The suggestions from members on here has been that the K8 Fresh would make a decent grinder at a sensible price and size fofr the home environment (I did look at the K10 fresh, but was talked out of it due to retention issues and I didn't much like the cooling fan).

I wanted to get the pressure profiles sorted out in terms of some profiles I liked and wanted to understand how they affected the shot, so something I have not mentioned is the ability to change the acceleration parameters of the pump. This changes the speed at which the pump moves from one pressure to another. At the moment this is a global parameter which affects all profiles and stages within profiles when changed. It might be something I suggest can not only be linked to specific profiles, but also to specific stages within a profile. So that each pressure change can have a different rate at which the pump reaches the desired new pressure.

My feeling at the moment is this is probably a set and forget parameter for a specific coffee, and I am still discovering what this can do. Early finding are:


If you got a lesser grinder than a Mini E, it's going to allow you to compensate for the grind and let the shot hold together better than it otherwise would (the guys who just bought 0.5mm Gicleurs will understand). Can it be made "very soft" to cause little Disturbance

Is it my Imagination or does the pour hold together better on some coffees

Am I noticing taste differences...no, but of course I would if the pour went squirrely at faster rate changes of pressure.

Can I grind even finer, without puck compression causing channeling as the water has slightly longer to get moving. I

It's not quite the same thing, but the idea is similar to a non Newtonian fluid, that water and custard powder primary school experiment.

Is there an impact on different coffees...again I suspect there will be as some coffees need to be ground finer than others, they may benefit from a softer ramp

If I extend the time of the shot...which you have to do with softer ramps...what does this do to temperature, how does this affect taste


So all very interesting at the moment. lots of ideas to play around with and probably something that people were not aware of. *Sure there's pressure profiles, but also the ability to change the rate at which those changes are applied. I still need to fine out how granular this can be, is it big changes only or can they be quite subtle.*



*
*I suppose the bottom line is....do I like it and the answer is yes, temperature stability is not an issue, usual twin boiler E61, but there's lots of other stuff to play with. It sort of feels that I will always be able to get the best out of a coffee. The limiting factor is now going to be me, especially when the new grinder arrives tomorrow..

The dealer machines have shipped with the exception of the UK dealer machines, simply because there are a few things for the UK dealer machines that I don't believe are on the others, it's little things, but with the cost of these machines, I feel it's worth waiting for, protects the investment and allows higher steam boiler pressures to be used safely, for those that like to steam even faster. From my own perspective, I like it powerful, just before the milk doesn't jump out of the jug and attacks me.

I stress, I see these as dealer units, they will be firmware upgradeable so can become retail units, but won't have any of the firmware changes I have suggested, those are with Gicar to see how many can fit in the memory space of the mainboard, if all, great, if not all, then i need to cherry pick. The delay has been a little my fault as there were a number of things they needed to get sorted out for the dealer units, but I am sure it's worth the wait.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Thanks Dave. Really interesting to hear your experiences. Still really interested in the DaveC tuned version when it arrives. Wife is even on board in advance


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Loving the updates Dave, I don't think I could ever own one of these as it would be adding too many variable into the mix. I'd either end up never drinking any coffee or I'd end up dying of coffee poisoning due to long tweaking sessions!

Still, I'd love to have a play on someone else's


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Loving the updates Dave, I don't think I could ever own one of these as it would be adding too many variable into the mix. I'd either end up never drinking any coffee or I'd end up dying of coffee poisoning due to long tweaking sessions!
> 
> Still, I'd love to have a play on someone else's


my sentiments too. Although I more see it as another thing I'm unable to master


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> my sentiments too. Although I more see it as another thing I'm unable to master


Yes, that's probably what I should have said


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Yes, that's probably what I should have said


It's certainly not gong to be for everyone, or even a lot of people. I suspect it will be Duetto owners/verona Owners possibly looking for more, those who don't own a DB, but want a high end one looking for more. perhaps even those who think they want a GS3, but realise they don't have to have a brand name. The one great thing though about the computer control of profiles, acceleration etc..It's reproducible and can be written down and shared. I would hope that an owners forum develops where people do share profiles etc.. for various coffees they buy. Then I won't have to keep experimenting and can copy the work of others.

e.g. for EK43 owners, perhaps there will be a profile that works well for that grinder, at least it can be shared and reproduced? I will probably settle down to 3 or 4 favourite profiles and stick with those because I'm basically lazy.

P.S. I'm also too lazy to pack this machine back in it's box, or even remove it from my counter...unless they send the big boys in dark suits round to rough me up....I might even try sending back a box filled with bricks first.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> It's certainly not gong to be for everyone, or even a lot of people. I suspect it will be Duetto owners/verona Owners possibly looking for more, those who don't own a DB, but want a high end one looking for more. perhaps even those who think they want a GS3, but realise they don't have to have a brand name. The one great thing though about the computer control of profiles, acceleration etc..It's reproducible and can be written down and shared. I would hope that an owners forum develops where people do share profiles etc.. for various coffees they buy. Then I won't have to keep experimenting and can copy the work of others.
> 
> e.g. for EK43 owners, perhaps there will be a profile that works well for that grinder, at least it can be shared and reproduced? I will probably settle down to 3 or 4 favourite profiles and stick with those because I'm basically lazy.
> 
> P.S. I'm also too lazy to pack this machine back in it's box, or even remove it from my counter...unless they send the big boys in dark suits round to rough me up....I might even try sending back a box filled with bricks first.


I agree totally and I do love the idea of such a machine, I just know that I personally would tweak myself crazy always thinking well what If I'd just have done this. I play guitar and suffer from this here as well, always tweaking my amp settings and never playing. At least with my Verona the variables are somewhat locked down.

With regards to your comments about packing it up, please do so that Coffeechap or Gary (Ideally Gary is he lives down the road from me) can have a play


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> With regards to your comments about packing it up, please do so that Coffeechap or Gary (Ideally Gary is he lives down the road from me) can have a play


I can't, I really do need to test it for much longer...much, much longer


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## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> [*]Am I noticing taste differences...no, but of course I would if the pour went squirrely at faster rate changes of pressure.


Hi Dave,

I am not sure if I am reading what you said as you intended....are you saying that you can't notice any improvements in flavours etc. liberated through this machine relative to other machines? Can you clarify this for me please?

Thanks,

Paolo5


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I can't, I really do need to test it for much longer...much, much longer


Lol, where do you live? I think I have space for one more friend....


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## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Dave,

Has production on the retail machines commenced? Do you have any idea when these machines will start to be sent to retailers for sale to the public?

Thanks.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Paolo5 said:


> Dave,
> 
> Has production on the retail machines commenced? Do you have any idea when these machines will start to be sent to retailers for sale to the public?
> 
> Thanks.


No and No, because a lots going to depend on what Gicar say and how long they take to say it. Then the decision what goes in at launch and what waits for later firmware upgrades.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Paolo5 said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I am not sure if I am reading what you said as you intended....are you saying that you can't notice any improvements in flavours etc. liberated through this machine relative to other machines? Can you clarify this for me please?
> 
> Paolo5


I don't know yet whether there are any flavour differences vs not doing it on the same Vesuvius machine. The pressure profiling makes this machine produce shots that taste different to other machines.


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## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I don't know yet whether there are any flavour differences vs not doing it on the same Vesuvius machine. The pressure profiling makes this machine produce shots that taste different to other machines.


What I really want to know is (using the same beans) if you can make a noticeably better (more complex, richer etc.) espresso with the Vesuvius than what you can, say, with a Duetto.....or....aside from lots of variables that the Vesuvius will allow you to explore....is it worth the effort? I am hoping that the results will be noticeably better in the cup with this newcomer as (dollar for dollar) in Australia it is a direct competitor to the tried-and-true formula of the GS3.

In Australia the Vesuvius will sell for almost the same cost as a La Marzocco GS3 (Only AUSD300 less).

Paolo5


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