# Profitec Pro500



## Dan430 (Apr 29, 2016)

Holla profitec-ians!! just curious why is there not much talk on the pro500? yup not even in HB forum!! so would like to start a thread just about the lovely pro500 existing users and new to be owners!! Share with us your reviews, the good and bad, your mods, your techniques (Cooling flushes, brew pressures, Brew ratios, etc).

Heres my take!

Machine was solid build with quality components i had a mater pressure stats altho some in the USA have sirai, Start up time was fantastic it took me 5 min before the boiler was up 1.25bar. Steam pressure was fantastic, so powerful i have to get my techniques right. Decent weight of PF approx 550grams.

My cool flush routine is approx 100ml of liquid and 20ml of liquid before brewing. I'm still fine tuning it as sometimes my machine stays idle for hours before pulling a shot.

Cons: The plastic tamper is a convex temper, still works but not that good in my opinion. Used While waiting for my motta pro tamper to arrive. no plastic coffee scoop, Furnish on my cup rails are not as perfect as i would like it to be, (Probably i need to polish it, might be the stickers residue).

Overall I'm very happy with the results the pro500 provides. BTW I'm using a ROK Grinder to pull my shots!(Also another grinder less discussed) still waiting for the sette to arrive to do justice with the pro500.

Happy brew and great coffee folks!!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I think the majority of people here would favour a dual boiler machine over an Heat Exchanger, hence why there is much more talk about the Pro 700 rather than the Pro 500, at least on this Forum.

One comment though: The "Cons" are rather irrelevant IMHO. Who needs a plastic scoop? As for the plastic tamper, it is part of the packaging: It's in the box and there it shall remain! :-D

I am glad you are enjoying the machine. I have a Pro 700 and a t64 grinder and really like them. The Sette is looking good, I can't wait until the final version is released and people start using it and posting feedback. I am inclined to get one myself. 

Right, machine is warm. Time for a coffee.


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

Hi all,

I own a Profitech pro 500 coupled with a Compak K3 touch advanced grinder and I really love it! The build quality is fantastic, and the shot quality is even better.

Without starting a "what's better debate" I enjoy the process of using a HX and get great results in the cup which is all I can ask for









As for a cooling flush I have found so far that this machine needs very little in the way of flushing and the temp stability is by far the most stable I have experienced with a HX machine. I am in Australia so our model does ship with a sirai pressure stat.

The steam power is excellent I am able to achieve silky smooth texture in a 400ml pitcher in around 15 seconds, and the recovery time is very fast! I can't prep faster than it can recover between shots which is nice when I am entertaining.

The only negative I have on the machine is the hot water dispenser sits in a position where it blocks the pour handle. It is not a major issue you can just rotate the water spout out of the way but it could have been designed slightly better if I am being picky.


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## Dan430 (Apr 29, 2016)

pessutojr said:


> I think the majority of people here would favour a dual boiler machine over an Heat Exchanger, hence why there is much more talk about the Pro 700 rather than the Pro 500, at least on this Forum.
> 
> One comment though: The "Cons" are rather irrelevant IMHO. Who needs a plastic scoop? As for the plastic tamper, it is part of the packaging: It's in the box and there it shall remain! :-D
> 
> ...


Yes i agree the cons are irrelevant but dang its a waste of resource! just exclude it for the world sake! LOL My motta coming tomorrow!! yes!!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

michaelmb45 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> The steam power is excellent I am able to achieve silky smooth texture in a 400ml pitcher in around 15 seconds, and the recovery time is very fast! I can't prep faster than it can recover between shots which is nice when I am entertaining.
> 
> The only negative I have on the machine is the hot water dispenser sits in a position where it blocks the pour handle. It is not a major issue you can just rotate the water spout out of the way but it could have been designed slightly better if I am being picky.


Cool! I used to own a HX machine, but I couldn't get on with the flushing routine. Not that precisely, but my Rocket Evo required a 200ml cooling flush. As you might know, the water in southern England is very hard, so I feed the machine with bottled water. I could not bear the thought of wasting so much water every time. So now I own a Pro 700.

I never really timed my steaming, but it takes around 20s-25s for 300ml or so. The steam boiler is set to 1.3 bar (126C).

As for the handle, yes, I know exactly what you mean, but I think that, unless you go for a wide machine, that will always be the case. I hardly use the hot tap water, so I just keep it out of the way.


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

pessutojr said:


> Cool! I used to own a HX machine, but I couldn't get on with the flushing routine. Not that precisely, but my Rocket Evo required a 200ml cooling flush. As you might know, the water in southern England is very hard, so I feed the machine with bottled water. I could not bear the thought of wasting so much water every time. So now I own a Pro 700.
> 
> I never really timed my steaming, but it takes around 20s-25s for 300ml or so. The steam boiler is set to 1.3 bar (126C).
> 
> As for the handle, yes, I know exactly what you mean, but I think that, unless you go for a wide machine, that will always be the case. I hardly use the hot tap water, so I just keep it out of the way.


I have been looking at the pro 700 It is good to hear so much positive about the machine on the forums. My experience with DB systems is limited I have stuck with the HX due to my comfort with them.

With the 700 can you run both boilers simultaneously, And how do you find the recovery time for shots?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

michaelmb45 said:


> I have been looking at the pro 700 It is good to hear so much positive about the machine on the forums. My experience with DB systems is limited I have stuck with the HX due to my comfort with them.
> 
> With the 700 can you run both boilers simultaneously, And how do you find the recovery time for shots?


Yes, you can. The machine lets you configure the controller. For instance, you can:

- Set the temp display C or F;

- Set the brew boiler temp temp;

- Set the steam boiler temp;

- Set which boilers are on/off, whether they should run at the same time or whether the brew boiler has precedence over the steam boiler.

- The P, the I and the D;

- The offset difference between the temperature of the water at the group head and the water in the boiler. Usually around 15C (so, for instance, 92C at the group means 107C inside the brew boiler).

Regarding recovery, I never had an issue, but then again, I don't often do shots back to back. When I do, by the time you grind and tamp again (say, 20s or so), the PID display is showing the set temperature again.

Hope that helps!


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

pessutojr said:


> Yes, you can. The machine lets you configure the controller. For instance, you can:
> 
> - Set the temp display C or F;
> 
> ...


Thanks that definitely helps.

It sounds like I may need to expand my espresso coffee machine collection


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I found on the 700, that as soon as you pulled the shot, the Pid dropped by 5 degrees or so and the recovery time was a fair bit longer than 20 seconds. This is most annoying when pulling back to back shots, and even more annoying when if you think about it, totally untrue. If you pulled 50 mis from a pan of very hot water, would the reintroduction of 50 mis cold water have little or any effect on the actual temp? So, where is the sensor located and how accurate is it. If with the temp display showing 90, I bet anything you like if you pulled another shot straight away with the water cycling through the system and into the pre heated group, there would be no difference. SO, is it a question that the Pid display actually does nothing but interfere with the thought process......unless you intentionally increase/decrease the display temp and then give the boiler and group time to adjust which might take 15 minutes

To me, they are a total waste of time!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> I found on the 700, that as soon as you pulled the shot, the Pid dropped by 5 degrees or so and the recovery time was a fair bit longer than 20 seconds. This is most annoying when pulling back to back shots, and even more annoying when if you think about it, totally untrue. If you pulled 50 mis from a pan of very hot water, would the reintroduction of 50 mis cold water have little or any effect on the actual temp? So, where is the sensor located and how accurate is it. If with the temp display showing 90, I bet anything you like if you pulled another shot straight away with the water cycling through the system and into the pre heated group, there would be no difference. SO, is it a question that the Pid display actually does nothing but interfere with the thought process......unless you intentionally increase/decrease the display temp and then give the boiler and group time to adjust which might take 15 minutes
> 
> To me, they are a total waste of time!


Exactly. That's why in my post I never mentioned the perceived recovery time displayed by the PID, as it is most likely total nonsense as discussed in another thread.

All I said was that it takes me around 20 seconds to grind tamp and lock again, and I never noticed any difference pulling shots in sequence when I rarely do so.

EDIT: Finds out that I did mentioned about the reading of the PID display in the previous post, even though it makes no sense.

So, apologies @dfk41.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

pessutojr said:


> Exactly. That's why in my post I never mentioned the perceived recovery time displayed by the PID, as it is most likely total nonsense as discussed in another thread.
> 
> All I said was that it takes me around 20 seconds to grind tamp and lock again, and I never noticed any difference pulling shots in sequence when I rarely do so.
> 
> ...


No apology needed! But,it does beg the question as to why they have done it this way


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> I found on the 700, that as soon as you pulled the shot, the Pid dropped by 5 degrees or so and the recovery time was a fair bit longer than 20 seconds. This is most annoying when pulling back to back shots, and even more annoying when if you think about it, totally untrue. If you pulled 50 mis from a pan of very hot water, would the reintroduction of 50 mis cold water have little or any effect on the actual temp? So, where is the sensor located and how accurate is it. If with the temp display showing 90, I bet anything you like if you pulled another shot straight away with the water cycling through the system and into the pre heated group, there would be no difference. SO, is it a question that the Pid display actually does nothing but interfere with the thought process......unless you intentionally increase/decrease the display temp and then give the boiler and group time to adjust which might take 15 minutes
> 
> To me, they are a total waste of time!


This intrigued me, and so I had a little look how the brew boiler is set up on the Profitec 700.

It seems the temp sensor for the PID is at the top of the boiler, however both the water inlet and the water outlet to the group are also at the top of the boiler. This means it is likely that the cold water is getting dumped at into the top of the boiler and causing the temp drop on the PID, but it does also mean that the colder water is sitting right there under the pipe that goes to the group to brew your coffee... this cant be good for the temp stability although I would guess that the group probably does its job and stabilises the temp of the incoming water. Perhaps back to back shots could throw off the temp however.

It is perplexing why they would have lead the cold water in through the top of the boiler and not the bottom, it must have been a design choice but who knows why,






@DaveC did you get a look at the internals of one of these machines?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I think we've high jacked the thread... :-( (After all, it is about the Profitec Pro500). Should we discuss those issues on the topic below instead?

Profitec 700 recovery time

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcoffeeforums%2Eco%2Euk%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D29837&share_tid=29837&share_fid=6813&share_type=t


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

I thought I would give an update on my pro 500. My shot quality is getting better and better as I get used to the machine! I am finding the temperature is incredibly stable to the point of barely needing any cooling flush unless it is idle for a long time.

What sort of dose is everyone else going with in the standard 17g basket? I am finding optimum quality with around a 23g dose leaving a fine imprint on the puck from the shower screen. Is anyone having success with a lower dose?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

That's great to know that you don't need any cooling flush. I had an HX machine before and it would need a 200ml cooling flush every time! Lots of wasted water if you use bottled water. As for the sock basket, I've never used them, they are still in the box, intact. I think the majority of people in this forum will use a VST or IMS precision filter basket. I use an 18g one, and dose 18g into it.


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

pessutojr said:


> That's great to know that you don't need any cooling flush. I had an HX machine before and it would need a 200ml cooling flush every time! Lots of wasted water if you use bottled water. As for the sock basket, I've never used them, they are still in the box, intact. I think the majority of people in this forum will use a VST or IMS precision filter basket. I use an 18g one, and dose 18g into it.


That's good to hear about the VST I just ordered a couple 

I got a 18 and a 20g VST to couple with my naked to try some different combinations.

How long is your dwell time on your pro 700?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I don't know if that answer your question, but I leave my machine warming up for 45 mins, flush for 2 secs, grind, tamp, lock and pull my shot. Unless my wife wants a coffee or I have guests, I don't do a second shot. When I do, I just repeat: Cleaning flush, grind, tamp, lock and pull.

This video has some insights on the Pro 700: Profitec 700 recovery time

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcoffeeforums%2Eco%2Euk%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D29837&share_tid=29837&share_fid=6813&share_type=t


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

pessutojr said:


> I don't know if that answer your question, but I leave my machine warming up for 45 mins, flush for 2 secs, grind, tamp, lock and pull my shot. Unless my wife wants a coffee or I have guests, I don't do a second shot. When I do, I just repeat: Cleaning flush, grind, tamp, lock and pull.
> 
> This video has some insights on the Pro 700: Profitec 700 recovery time
> 
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcoffeeforums%2Eco%2Euk%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D29837&share_tid=29837&share_fid=6813&share_type=t


Sorry I should have been clearer with my terminology, when I said dwell time I meant the time from the pump coming on to the fist drop falling into the cup.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

michaelmb45 said:


> Sorry I should have been clearer with my terminology, when I said dwell time I meant the time from the pump coming on to the fist drop falling into the cup.


At 9bar (at the head of the pump, as it is a rotary pump), between 6 and 8 seconds on a spouted PF. With the bottomless one, it is around 4-5 seconds.


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

Awesome thanks, at the moment I am over 10 seconds so I need to make some adjustment to my prep


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## Dan430 (Apr 29, 2016)

michaelmb45 said:


> I thought I would give an update on my pro 500. My shot quality is getting better and better as I get used to the machine! I am finding the temperature is incredibly stable to the point of barely needing any cooling flush unless it is idle for a long time.
> 
> What sort of dose is everyone else going with in the standard 17g basket? I am finding optimum quality with around a 23g dose leaving a fine imprint on the puck from the shower screen. Is anyone having success with a lower dose?


I'm still using a standard stock basket and filled it with 17g of coffee with a yield of 34g!! on the dwell time its usually around 6-7s at 9bar! its also great to know you don't need any cool flushes! because i do need cool flushes probably because i warm up my machine 30min before brewing!! I've just got my E61 Brew Temp gauge (Vidastech) so I'm gonna test the temperature stability still doing some testing!!


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

Dan430 said:


> I'm still using a standard stock basket and filled it with 17g of coffee with a yield of 34g!! on the dwell time its usually around 6-7s at 9bar! its also great to know you don't need any cool flushes! because i do need cool flushes probably because i warm up my machine 30min before brewing!! I've just got my E61 Brew Temp gauge (Vidastech) so I'm gonna test the temperature stability still doing some testing!!


I have actually dropped my dose to 19 grams since the last post and am getting better results, so I may drop it a little more.

As for the temperature stability I was speaking to the Australian imported and they adjust the machines to suit our conditions here, so I am not sure if that is why the temp is very stable?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

My brief experience with a Heat Exchanger machine told me that, for the one I had (Rocket Cellini Evo) I would require no cooling flush if I warmed up the machine from cold for 30 mins. More than that and I would need a cooling flush.

In my opinion, no matter what, all HX machines will require some sort of cooling flush due to their nature. The water in the boiler is at 120C plus, and the desired temperature at the group is 94C (approx). On my Pro 700, the water in the brew boiler is at 108C. The steam boiler is set to 126C.

The only way to adjust machines to a particular condition is either by adjusting the boiler temperature, which in a HX machine translates to more or less steam capacity. The other option is to install a gliceur (flow restrictor) in the thermosyphon to reduce the flow of water used to circulate in the machine to warm up the e61 group head.

I bet if you leave the machine on for 45 mins or so you will need a cooling flush. Of course, I might be wrong for the Pro 500, as they might use some trick that I am unfamiliar with, but that was what I gathered from the machine I had.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Nota which is also labelled an HX requires no cooling flush either. I thought the simple reason why was the addition of a thermosyphon but do not know about the addition of a flow restrictor


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> The Nota which is also labelled an HX requires no cooling flush either. I thought the simple reason why was the addition of a thermosyphon but do not know about the addition of a flow restrictor


No cooling flushing at all, not even when left on for 60 mins or so? What's the boiler pressure you have it set to?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

From memory around 1,1 to 1.2 bar. I have not adjusted it. With every machine I own, from lever to db, when I remove the pf handle to grind, I always release a small amount of water, maybe 2 ounces. When a thermosyphon is there, it is just to kick start it but technically it is not needed. between shots, maybe typically be a couple of hours for me


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

With the way I use my machine it is warmed for 30-40 min then I pour my shots, so I don't really leave it idle for hours.

By habit I always drain some water before my first pour to flush the system but i have never seen it steaming and carrying on like other HX machines even on the rare occasions it has been idle for a long time.

I am sure that as you said if it is idle then there must be some extra heating of the water in the HX, however the pro 500 doesn't seem to reach the extremes that I have seen displayed in other HX machines.

For info my PX stat holds boiler PX around 1.25 bar.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> From memory around 1,1 to 1.2 bar. I have not adjusted it. With every machine I own, from lever to db, when I remove the pf handle to grind, I always release a small amount of water, maybe 2 ounces. When a thermosyphon is there, it is just to kick start it but technically it is not needed. between shots, maybe typically be a couple of hours for me


Wow, that's interesting. My Cellini required a 4-5 ounce cooling flush if left on for more than 30 mins!

At the end one of the reasons I decided to go for a DB was because I could not bear the fact of wasting so much bottled water.

I do like the nature of HX machines, specially the fact that they draw fresh water instead of the water sitting in the boiler.

Food for thought when upgraditus knocks on my door again!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

michaelmb45 said:


> With the way I use my machine it is warmed for 30-40 min then I pour my shots, so I don't really leave it idle for hours.
> 
> By habit I always drain some water before my first pour to flush the system but i have never seen it steaming and carrying on like other HX machines even on the rare occasions it has been idle for a long time.
> 
> ...


I think I need to upgrade my Pro 700 to a Pro 500 

Thanks for the info.


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

pessutojr said:


> I think I need to upgrade my Pro 700 to a Pro 500
> 
> Thanks for the info.


I will try and dig up an article I was reading which tried to explain why it doesn't super heat. I would try and explain it but I am confident I wouldn't get it right 

The 700 is a different beast, no matter how stable a HX is it's not close to PID stability.


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## Dan430 (Apr 29, 2016)

michaelmb45 said:


> With the way I use my machine it is warmed for 30-40 min then I pour my shots, so I don't really leave it idle for hours.
> 
> By habit I always drain some water before my first pour to flush the system but i have never seen it steaming and carrying on like other HX machines even on the rare occasions it has been idle for a long time.
> 
> ...


hmmm Really interesting!! would try this tomorrow morning!! we are having basically the same settings but i always thought i need to "Cool flush" it and i leave my machine on just like you 30-40min!! i just install the temp gauge and will check it out if its around 92-98C at the brew group without cool flushes!


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

Dan430 said:


> hmmm Really interesting!! would try this tomorrow morning!! we are having basically the same settings but i always thought i need to "Cool flush" it and i leave my machine on just like you 30-40min!! i just install the temp gauge and will check it out if its around 92-98C at the brew group without cool flushes!


I look foreword to seeing the results as I am seeing lots of chatter about the setup in different geographical locations and varying results based on location.

I will try and source a temp tester and see if I can run the same test in Australia.


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

Here is one of the explanations I was referring to. From what I have been told the PRO500 will run hot straight out of Italy however the Australian importers adjust the machine to run a lower temperature in the group more suited to our location, I assume by changing the restriction? I have seen many posts from unhappy people who have imported them self from Italy and had to flush huge amounts of water before each shot on the same machine.

"A cooling flush is only required if the circulation of hot water from the heat exchanger to the head while the machine is 'at rest' is too rapid, so that the group head becomes hot enough to cause the water being pumped through the heat exchanger to the head during extraction to overheat beyond the desired temperature, and in extreme cases getting hot enough to flash to steam as it exist the head. A cooling flush removes that excess heat, bringing the water temperature at the head down to where it should be.

On most heat exchanger machines the head is connected to the heat exchanger by one pipe from the top of the HX and another from the bottom. With the machine 'at rest', the water in the HX heats, rises to the top of the HX and travels slowly to the head, loses heat to the head casting, cools and travels slowly back down the other pipe to the bottom of the HX. This is the thermosyphon effect, which is what is used to head the head casting up to operating temperature. A machine that is 'configured well' is one where the operation of the thermosyphon is controlled to ensure that the temperature of water out of the head is the same regardless of whether an extraction has just occurred or the machine has sat unused for hours. It is most commonly done by fitting a restrictor to the upper HX pipe"


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Yeah, they also refer to that restrictor as "gliceur". I believe Whole Latte Love does the same thing in the USA for the Expobar Office line.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Moreover, I think on Home Barista, they categorise HX machines in three categories: Dragon, Mixed and Agnostic, in order of cooling flush size (long to small)


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

pessutojr said:


> Yeah, they also refer to that restrictor as "gliceur". I believe Whole Latte Love does the same thing in the USA for the Expobar Office line.


Different thing.

The gicleur is in the top of the group head, the flow restrictor they are talking about sits in the upper thermosyphon pipe.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Dylan said:


> Different thing.
> 
> The gicleur is in the top of the group head, the flow restrictor they are talking about sits in the upper thermosyphon pipe.


Thanks @Dylan. Was always led to believe otherwise. Thanks for the clarification.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I think Gicleur means something along the lines of flow restrictor in french, and they basically do the same thing by restricting the flow with bit of brass or plastic with a hole in it.


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## Dan430 (Apr 29, 2016)

michaelmb45 said:


> Here is one of the explanations I was referring to. From what I have been told the PRO500 will run hot straight out of Italy however the Australian importers adjust the machine to run a lower temperature in the group more suited to our location, I assume by changing the restriction? I have seen many posts from unhappy people who have imported them self from Italy and had to flush huge amounts of water before each shot on the same machine.
> 
> "A cooling flush is only required if the circulation of hot water from the heat exchanger to the head while the machine is 'at rest' is too rapid, so that the group head becomes hot enough to cause the water being pumped through the heat exchanger to the head during extraction to overheat beyond the desired temperature, and in extreme cases getting hot enough to flash to steam as it exist the head. A cooling flush removes that excess heat, bringing the water temperature at the head down to where it should be.
> 
> On most heat exchanger machines the head is connected to the heat exchanger by one pipe from the top of the HX and another from the bottom. With the machine 'at rest', the water in the HX heats, rises to the top of the HX and travels slowly to the head, loses heat to the head casting, cools and travels slowly back down the other pipe to the bottom of the HX. This is the thermosyphon effect, which is what is used to head the head casting up to operating temperature. A machine that is 'configured well' is one where the operation of the thermosyphon is controlled to ensure that the temperature of water out of the head is the same regardless of whether an extraction has just occurred or the machine has sat unused for hours. It is most commonly done by fitting a restrictor to the upper HX pipe"


Interesting info there!! i got my machine straight from Bella Barista and they tune it up for me before sending it to me!! I'm curious to know how will the restrictor looks like? and am also wondering does mine have one!

my settings on the boiler pressure is set at 1.15 bar and the heating element kicks in up to 1.25 bar the heating element cut off. I'm not sure what its set at but its between the number. but i also notice during the first 30min the boiler pressure goes up to 1.4 bar (The green line) then reduces, but when longer it idles it gets back to 1.25 before the boiler cuts off.

BTW here is my take on the machine with my new brew temp gauge. here are my findings:

1. i find the thermosyphon works really great at maintaining the temp.

- idle for more than 1 hour the temp ranges from 102C ~ 104C

- After cooling flushes for 5 sec the temp stays around 98C +- 0.3

2. i notice even when doing cooling flush, the temp will increase by 2C~3C before reducing it by 6C~8C i believe its the heated water from the HX system? not too sure.

3. When pulling a shot its the same, Starting it will increase the temp by 2C~3C then reducing it by 4C~6C. i started pulling my shots at 98C and the first 5sec it increase to 101C then gradually decrease to 96C ending my shot at 32sec for 2oz. for this shot i can taste a little burnt taste but not significant still taste good tho!!

i will make a video of it when i got the time!! will experiment more on these variables.


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

Dan430 said:


> Interesting info there!! i got my machine straight from Bella Barista and they tune it up for me before sending it to me!! I'm curious to know how will the restrictor looks like? and am also wondering does mine have one!
> 
> my settings on the boiler pressure is set at 1.15 bar and the heating element kicks in up to 1.25 bar the heating element cut off. I'm not sure what its set at but its between the number. but i also notice during the first 30min the boiler pressure goes up to 1.4 bar (The green line) then reduces, but when longer it idles it gets back to 1.25 before the boiler cuts off.
> 
> ...


That's great data!

I don't have a temperature gauge so it is possible I am fluctuating a few degrees also as all my judgement is visual through the water leaving the group during flushes. I will work to get my hands on a gauge so we can compare results.

From memory my pressure stat is set to a very similar cutout as yours but I will confirm tomorrow morning. And I have no idea what the restrictive looks like as I haven't really played inside the cases of machines.

On a side not I just got my 20g VST basket today, and it has made a massive difference to shot quality from the stock basket. On the same bean I am using a higher dose due to the basket weight however needed to fine the grind. This leads me to believe the flow through the basket must be faster leading to the amazing extractions I have been seeing!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

HX machines have a different profile to double boilers. There are loads of stuff available on home barista and you tube videos. Very interesting stuff.

https://www.home-barista.com/hx-love-brew-temperature-profiles.html


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## Dan430 (Apr 29, 2016)

pessutojr said:


> HX machines have a different profile to double boilers. There are loads of stuff available on home barista and you tube videos. Very interesting stuff.
> 
> https://www.home-barista.com/hx-love-brew-temperature-profiles.html


Ahhh That explains my findings!! indeed interesting read!! ok i shall call it a "HUMP" from now on!! but i think the characteristic of the profitec is different from the study done by HB i may sound bias but it doesn't peak as much as the graph shows in what we describe as "HUMP". but then again perhaps i may get different characteristic and profiles from different "hump"irience!! Time for experiments, enjoying the small variables!!


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

This is the VST 22g in action. Still a little fast I am thinking.


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

Dan430 said:


> Interesting info there!! i got my machine straight from Bella Barista and they tune it up for me before sending it to me!! I'm curious to know how will the restrictor looks like? and am also wondering does mine have one!
> 
> my settings on the boiler pressure is set at 1.15 bar and the heating element kicks in up to 1.25 bar the heating element cut off. I'm not sure what its set at but its between the number. but i also notice during the first 30min the boiler pressure goes up to 1.4 bar (The green line) then reduces, but when longer it idles it gets back to 1.25 before the boiler cuts off.
> 
> ...


Also I checked my boiler pressure. The element switches off at 1.2 bar and switches back on at 1 bar. So I am running a bit lower boiler pressure than your machine it seems


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## Dan430 (Apr 29, 2016)

michaelmb45 said:


> Also I checked my boiler pressure. The element switches off at 1.2 bar and switches back on at 1 bar. So I am running a bit lower boiler pressure than your machine it seems


Whats your pressure when you steam milk? meaning when you on your pressure at what bar is the boiler pressure? mine is at 1 bar and how is the milk froth? still powerful enough at that settings? yup on the extraction of VST looks tasty but its a little fast, how it taste like? and at what dose?


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

Dan430 said:


> Whats your pressure when you steam milk? meaning when you on your pressure at what bar is the boiler pressure? mine is at 1 bar and how is the milk froth? still powerful enough at that settings? yup on the extraction of VST looks tasty but its a little fast, how it taste like? and at what dose?


My boiler pressure sits around the bottom of the green mark when using steam. If I am using a large jug it can fall below the green, but it has to be on for a fair amount of time.

The froth seems fine. I am no milk texturing expert and latte art is not my strong point.

On the VST I am running 20g dose on the 20g basket whilst finding my feet with it. The taste was great! I actually fined the grind and slowed the pour down today however the taste turned very bitter. With this bean I'm finding the taste is best at the 5 second dwell time even though the pour is finished slightly fast at 25 seconds.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

That's fine, and exactly how you should be getting the coffee how you like it.

I tend to prefer slightly quicker pours than 25 secs, it's just a starting point.


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## Dan430 (Apr 29, 2016)

michaelmb45 said:


> My boiler pressure sits around the bottom of the green mark when using steam. If I am using a large jug it can fall below the green, but it has to be on for a fair amount of time.
> 
> The froth seems fine. I am no milk texturing expert and latte art is not my strong point.
> 
> On the VST I am running 20g dose on the 20g basket whilst finding my feet with it. The taste was great! I actually fined the grind and slowed the pour down today however the taste turned very bitter. With this bean I'm finding the taste is best at the 5 second dwell time even though the pour is finished slightly fast at 25 seconds.


Great!! ill tune mine to match yours and check the temp again tmr!! I'm neither a milk texture expert as well!! haha

yup i played around with the dose as well and yeah i prefer my faster shots than my usual 25sec shot for the same reasons!


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

Dan430 said:


> Great!! ill tune mine to match yours and check the temp again tmr!! I'm neither a milk texture expert as well!! haha
> 
> yup i played around with the dose as well and yeah i prefer my faster shots than my usual 25sec shot for the same reasons!





Dylan said:


> That's fine, and exactly how you should be getting the coffee how you like it.
> 
> I tend to prefer slightly quicker pours than 25 secs, it's just a starting point.


I have been playing a bit more with shot timing leaving all other variables consistent, and I am definitely leaning towards the shorter timings. I can see why people drink ristretto it does give a lovely sweet shot.


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## Dan430 (Apr 29, 2016)

Been Pleased with the result of lower boiler pressure and thus forgot to update here!! LOL

So here is the minor changes with significant result.

Adjusted my boiler pressure to 1 bar. and here is the findings:

1. idle for 1 hour Temp is around 100C +- 0.5C

2. Extracting the "Hump" is at 103C and tapering off at around 98C for 2oz coffee.

i did this without cool flush!! to mimic mikes routine!! and i got a pretty good shot!! perhaps to lower the brew temp a 5 sec cooling flush will be good and maybe provide different characteristic/profiles of the coffee. but yeah this can go without the cooling flushes.

ok I'm sticking to this variable!! oh ya milk texturing with this pressure is great too! i find it easier to control! (Personal preference)


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

Dan430 said:


> Been Pleased with the result of lower boiler pressure and thus forgot to update here!! LOL
> 
> So here is the minor changes with significant result.
> 
> ...


I'm glad the adjustment worked out for the better, and it means I'm not going mad about not needing a massive cooling flush before use!

I have also been quiet as I have just discovered ristretto shots and am loving them at the moment lol


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## Fousac (Sep 26, 2016)

Maybe silly question but what size of Tamper do you use with original Profitec pro 500 basket? Is it 58mm or bigger? I will have this machine at the end of month and I like one tamper just 58mm. Thx.


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## michaelmb45 (May 24, 2016)

Fousac said:


> Maybe silly question but what size of Tamper do you use with original Profitec pro 500 basket? Is it 58mm or bigger? I will have this machine at the end of month and I like one tamper just 58mm. Thx.


A standard 58mm will work, or you can go a precision 58.5mm for a snug fit.

On I side note I highly recommend upgrading to a precision basket, and tamper. In my opinion it is one of the cheapest upgrades with noticeable improvement.


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## Dan430 (Apr 29, 2016)

michaelmb45 said:


> A standard 58mm will work, or you can go a precision 58.5mm for a snug fit.
> 
> On I side note I highly recommend upgrading to a precision basket, and tamper. In my opinion it is one of the cheapest upgrades with noticeable improvement.


Yes 100% agree on this!! i bought a 58.4mm motta pro tamper and works great with stock basket and also IMS basket.


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## coffeecoder (Nov 17, 2016)

Hi. New Profitec Pro 500 user here (almost 3 weeks now). Going well. Love the machine.



michaelmb45 said:


> On I side note I highly recommend upgrading to a precision basket, and tamper. In my opinion it is one of the cheapest upgrades with noticeable improvement.


How come?


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## Radio (Mar 13, 2017)

Hi, a new profitec pro 500 user and have been playing with boiler pressure a lot... so far i found 0.8-1.0 bar pressure range/deadband gives me good results with just enough flushing where water flashing stops.

I use IMS basket and my machine does not have a restrictor (i am in canada).

What boiler pressure everyone is running and with what flush timings?

How is frothing pressure? when i run it, it goes to 0.7.

cheers


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Hi radio

I have ecm mechanika which I believe is same as 500 inside?

Can't help I'm afraid - just to say mine was set by Bella barista. Seems to settle at 1.5

Frothing pressure is great, had to put 2 hole tip back on as 5 hole was too fast for my inexperienced technique


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

kennyboy993 said:


> just to say mine was set by Bella barista. Seems to settle at 1.5


That's a lot! I don't think you need as much on such machine, but may be long. From what a remember, a good recommendation is ~ 1.2 bar.

Rockets HX are set to ~1.0 bar.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Radio said:


> Hi, a new profitec pro 500 user and have been playing with boiler pressure a lot... so far i found 0.8-1.0 bar pressure range/deadband gives me good results with just enough flushing where water flashing stops.
> 
> I use IMS basket and my machine does not have a restrictor (i am in canada).
> 
> ...


If you are happy with the results with the pressure that low, than keep it like that. Otherwise, just increase it and see how it goes. There are a few videos on Whole Latte Love or Seattle Coffee Gear which will show you how to do so. It's dead simple.

The pressure will influence a few things:

- Steam ability; (the greater the pressure, the more the steam intensity);

- Length of cooling flush; (The more the pressure, the higher the temperature, and therefore the longer you will need to flush to stabilise the water temperature at the group);

- Recovery after a shot; (if the pressure is too low, and the water temp too low, it will take longer for the water to heat up);

- Water temperature;


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That's a lot! I don't think you need as much on such machine, but may be long. From what a remember, a good recommendation is ~ 1.2 bar.
> 
> Rockets HX are set to ~1.0 bar.


Really!? ok I better ring BB today.

So Rockets are set to 1.0 bar maximum i.e. it falls to below 1.0 and then climbs back on a cycle?


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## MalcolmH (Dec 10, 2016)

I have the same machine as you @kennyboy993 and this morning, after the machine has been on around an hour its cycling between 1.2 and 1.4. So looks like yours may be a little high.

I have a two hole tip and frothing around 4/5oz milk takes around 10secs (probably doing this for too long as its so much quicker than my old Francis/Francis and Im still adjusting).


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks Malcolm - I'll check mine with more accuracy tonight.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

So my mechanika is cycling between 1.4 and 1.6 bar. Sound high?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

kennyboy993 said:


> So my mechanika is cycling between 1.4 and 1.6 bar. Sound high?


IMO, yes.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Ok cheers. I'll give BB a quick ring and enquiry re their logic as they set it to that specifically and potentially ill reduce it tonight.

I did think steam and hot water was a bit crazy


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

also the manual suggests the pressure should be lower

"Wait until the pressure gauge indicates approx. 1.0-1.25 bar. "


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## MalcolmH (Dec 10, 2016)

Doesnt the boiler pressure affect the temp at the group head, the two interact in an HX. Thats the important thing isn't it?. Id love one of those E61 group head thermometers for a few days. To assess length of cooling flush temp of water etc.

Also, I recall you saying that your machine is plumbed in. May be irrelevant but just a thought.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Boiler pressure does indeed relate to group head temp, how much it affects it depends on the design of the thermosyphon.

You can pick up a Vidastech thermometer for £55ish, I have an eric's and use it on every shot to be sure about my flush temps.

Vidastech - http://www.designcoffee.com/product/detail.html?product_no=520


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Been looking at those vidastech - will probably invest in one. Though part of me thinks if you buy a high-end, modern HX like the ECM then a decent flush should be all you need.

Yeah mine's plumbed in. I've called David at BB for a quick chat before I turn my pressure stat down - because he set it at 1.5 deliberately I assume.

Everything I read, including this thread points to it being better around 1.25


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

kennyboy993 said:


> Been looking at those vidastech - will probably invest in one. Though part of me thinks if you buy a high-end, modern HX like the ECM then a decent flush should be all you need.
> 
> Yeah mine's plumbed in. I've called David at BB for a quick chat before I turn my pressure stat down - because he set it at 1.5 deliberately I assume.
> 
> Everything I read, including this thread points to it being better around 1.25


You may well be right, and I think some HX's have a well enough designed HX that cooling flushes are all but eliminated.

You can still buy machines like mine (A VBM Domobar) however that need a substantial flush after idling.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Has installing the thermostat enabled you to improve your coffee on yours Dylan?

I've been toying with getting one for a while


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

kennyboy993 said:


> Has installing the thermostat enabled you to improve your coffee on yours Dylan?
> 
> I've been toying with getting one for a while


Do you mean thermometer?

In which case - yes.

But my machine requires a huge flush, after fitting a flow restrictor to the thermosyphon and a smaller gicleur I still have to flush 12-14Oz of water to cool the group and thermosyphon.

My flush routine is this long flush - until the Eric's reads 95 - Then wait for the thermosyphon to recover for a couple of minutes (as there is now cold water in there) - then pull the shot. I wouldn't have been able to develop this routine with any confidence without the temp probe, and I still use it every day to flush down to 95 before allowing the thermosyphon to recover. Without the probe I would be doing it by time having guessed in the first place.

For my machine it is an essential, I cant comment how necessary it is on other machines. I wouldn't really trust anyone saying 'all my machine needs is a short flush' unless they have the data to back up the fact they are not just pulling a hot shot at 99degrees after flushing out the boiling water.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Yes sorry - bloody iPhone.

Ok cheers, good insight.


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## MalcolmH (Dec 10, 2016)

@kennyboy993, there is a great review of the ECM technica profile IV here:






Please dont be put off by his geeky appearance, it really is well considered and interesting and he comes across as a really likeable bloke (to me anyway!). He goes into flushing and the temperature probe a lot. He takes a lot of trouble to answer peoples comments too which i like. I recall one saying that he only uses the temperature occasionally now, he's honed his technique and is confident of the repeatability. The flush is no where near as long as @Dylan is having to perform from what I remember. Different design machine I guess.

Ive also been thinking about purchasing one of these thermometers so if we could share postage that might be good, maybe others would be interested too.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks Malcolm.

I actually watched this a while ago - just watched it again and I got so much more out of it.

I noticed his boiler pressure seemed to hover around 1-1.2 also?

I think I've seen enough and would like to order the vidastech today, fancy going for it? - I'll post on the other thread and see if anyone wants to go for it also to share postage.


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## MalcolmH (Dec 10, 2016)

kennyboy993 said:


> Thanks Malcolm.
> 
> I actually watched this a while ago - just watched it again and I got so much more out of it.
> 
> ...


I do remember him saying that he was at altitude and that does effect temperature.

Id be happy to join you in the purchase of one of those.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Have mentioned you in the thermo thread Malcolm ;-)

Btw did much more reading and have adjusted my pressure so mid point is now 1.25

Steaming and hot water seams less frenetic now and just pulled one of the most delicious shots ever!

Coincidence of course....... or was it?!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

kennyboy993 said:


> Have mentioned you in the thermo thread Malcolm ;-)
> 
> Btw did much more reading and have adjusted my pressure so mid point is now 1.25
> 
> ...


Excellent, I am glad you got that sorted and seen an improvement. Good job!


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## Radio (Mar 13, 2017)

Wow lots of posts all of a sudden, apologies for late reply.



kennyboy993 said:


> Hi radio
> 
> I have ecm mechanika which I believe is same as 500 inside?
> 
> ...


As far as i understand the ecm mechanika is same/similar to the 500. 1.5 does seem a bit too high, i would get opinions of the vendor and other users to adjust. The higher the boiler pressure better steaming but you maybe burning the coffee and getting a bitter shot.

I have been experimenting with the boiler pressure and flushing to get the flavours where everything is balanced, i found max 1bar seems to be good here but again its all guess work without the thermometer.



MediumRoastSteam said:


> If you are happy with the results with the pressure that low, than keep it like that. Otherwise, just increase it and see how it goes. There are a few videos on Whole Latte Love or Seattle Coffee Gear which will show you how to do so. It's dead simple.
> 
> The pressure will influence a few things:
> 
> ...


Yup. For me i think it maybe better to invest in a thermometer to get the whole picture.

I wanted to know what was peoples routine for flushing everyday?

For me. I heat the machine for 45mins-60mins. Do a 5 second flush until the water flashing/gargling stops. Prep the coffee, grind etc, do another flush until the flashing gargling stops and pull the shot immediately.

at max 1 bar the frothing has suffered a bit but coffee i am getting at a more balanced level.

Has anyone used distilled water in the machine instead of tap water?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Don't use distilled water directly, as it is corrosive and the espresso will taste pretty bad! If you do that, you need to introduce some of the minerals back. Some people here have a Reverse-Osmisis system installed, and for espresso re-introduce the minerals.

I just use Tesco's Ashbeck.


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## Radio (Mar 13, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Don't use distilled water directly, as it is corrosive and the espresso will taste pretty bad! If you do that, you need to introduce some of the minerals back. Some people here have a Reverse-Osmisis system installed, and for espresso re-introduce the minerals.
> 
> I just use Tesco's Ashbeck.


Good to know, i am experimenting with the water now.

My home water i filter but it has an after taste of sediment and a hint of bitterness. My mate who has a water softener has water that tastes sweet to me, so i am trying his water and the balance is superb.


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