# Help with Dalian Amazon Roaster



## GShal (Aug 30, 2020)

Hi all,

Ive just entered the world of roasting with the Amazon (2016 model). Having read DaveC's amazing posts I get that what Im about to ask could be pointless but....

I've been using 1kg of green as a starter.

Leaving the roaster till for about 25 mins to warm up the temps get to 201 (215) and then I charge the drum. With most batches the temp drops to 149 (155) and then turns around. Now what I've seeing is first crack taking place around 8 minutes in at 173 (192).

What I'm wondering is....This seems to keep happening and I'm assuming that the temp is either wrong and the the PID is giving me a low reading or there is something else.

Please keep in mind I've only roasted about 6kg and I'm getting used to controlling the CA & SD but even so, I just wondered if there are any red flags that stand out with what's happening.

ANY help would be greatly appreciated.

Gus


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

It's really important to know what you're roasting. If you're roasting something with high density, then you need more heat to charge. If low density then you need less. My instinct is that you're charging too hot for the bean you're roasting.

Trouble is, the LCDs aren't the most accurate and so you're not necessarily able to tell us quite how hot you're charging. But for comparison's sake: I know that for a 12.5 minute roast of a Brazilian natural I charge at 180 degs


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## GShal (Aug 30, 2020)

O.k. This is good to know. I've been roasting an Ethiopian so probably need to do my research on the density.

I wasn't sure how accurate the LCD's are and am hoping to make the transition to a multimeter. The charging temp is a good start so thanks for coming back to me.

Do own a Dalian?


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## GShal (Aug 30, 2020)

O.k. This is good to know. I've been roasting an Ethiopian so probably need to do my research on the density.

I wasn't sure how accurate the LCD's are and am hoping to make the transition to a multimeter. The charging temp is a good start so thanks for coming back to me.


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

There is a difference between Ethiopian coffees. Geographical and process are both significant. This applies to all coffees from any country.

I would stick to the PIDs in the configuration that they left the factory. BT to the left, AT to the right.

Read this thread, not just for the power mod subject, but the OP is experiencing similar concerns to your self. It may help you resolve your concerns.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/54275-dalian-power-mod/?do=embed

It may also help you if you stuck with one bean to start with. The usual recommendation is to buy some OK but cheap Brazilian Santos and experiment to get the feel for your roaster.

Good luck and have fun.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

GShal said:


> O.k. This is good to know. I've been roasting an Ethiopian so probably need to do my research on the density.
> 
> I wasn't sure how accurate the LCD's are and am hoping to make the transition to a multimeter. The charging temp is a good start so thanks for coming back to me.


 Measure the density by volume. There are two methods. One is to use a tall measuring cylinder and drop the beans in, 1 cubic centimeter is equivalent to 1ml, so if you fill with beans up to the 10ml line and weigh them you can calculate the density. Unfortunately the gaps between the beans means this isn't accurate but it at least provides a reference without wasting any beans.

To get true accuracy you need to use the displacement method. Put a set amount of water (say 50ml) into the measuring cylinder and then see how much water is displaced by x grams (say 25g). You get the density by dividing the mass of green coffee used by the volume of water displaced. I.E the water is at the 50ml line and 25g beans are added, displacing water to the 70ml line. 20ml has been displaced. So the density is 25/20 = 1.25g/ml(/cm2)


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## Dartmoor Coffee (Feb 4, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> Measure the density by volume. There are two methods. One is to use a tall measuring cylinder and drop the beans in, 1 cubic centimeter is equivalent to 1ml, so if you fill with beans up to the 10ml line and weigh them you can calculate the density. Unfortunately the gaps between the beans means this isn't accurate but it at least provides a reference without wasting any beans.
> 
> To get true accuracy you need to use the displacement method. Put a set amount of water (say 50ml) into the measuring cylinder and then see how much water is displaced by x grams (say 25g). You get the density by dividing the mass of green coffee used by the volume of water displaced. I.E the water is at the 50ml line and 25g beans are added, displacing water to the 70ml line. 20ml has been displaced. So the density is 25/20 = 1.25g/ml(/cm2)


 Hi, That is interesting to know. Will take a look at this.

Phil.


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## Dartmoor Coffee (Feb 4, 2020)

Hi @GShal, Have you created any roast logs and do you have a power metre showing the volts being used?

Been a bit of a learning curve. Could try reducing CD to 5 to allow more airflow through the SD. When you drop the beans do you get smoke/steam coming out? Is your vent in a good place and allow all smoke to easily get removed?

Phil.


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## GShal (Aug 30, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> Measure the density by volume. There are two methods. One is to use a tall measuring cylinder and drop the beans in, 1 cubic centimeter is equivalent to 1ml, so if you fill with beans up to the 10ml line and weigh them you can calculate the density. Unfortunately the gaps between the beans means this isn't accurate but it at least provides a reference without wasting any beans.
> 
> To get true accuracy you need to use the displacement method. Put a set amount of water (say 50ml) into the measuring cylinder and then see how much water is displaced by x grams (say 25g). You get the density by dividing the mass of green coffee used by the volume of water displaced. I.E the water is at the 50ml line and 25g beans are added, displacing water to the 70ml line. 20ml has been displaced. So the density is 25/20 = 1.25g/ml(/cm2)


 Thanks Rob and Phil.

Rob, I'll look into the density of the Ethiopian I'm using. That will help. I think my charging temperature could be an issue too.

phil, I there hasn't been any smoke for the rear plate (if that makes sense) and for a roast the other day I put sd at full throttle and ca at 2. This was to slow the roast as after 4 minutes things were looking brown in the drum. I got first crack at about 8 minutes and had to dump shortly afterwards. A fair amount of smoke came out of the drum flap when I opened it up. Thats why I'm not sure if the pid is providing an accurate temp or if it is in fact a lot hotter.

will keep playing around and see how I go but please keep the advice/thoughts coming. It's really appreciated.

gus


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Your charge temp is too high. It's almost 30c higher than the temp the probe shows when you reach FC. Should be much closer temps. I agree with @Rob1 try charging at 180. It will slow the overall roast and your FC will happen about 178 I guess. FC will be later, in time, as well which will give you a better developed roast. Also read the manual and follow that as it's pretty accurate. There is always smoke when you dump the beans - the nearer you get to , and into, 2nd crack the more the smoke.


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## RDC8 (Dec 6, 2016)

Hi @GShal

After three and a bit years on this roaster I am still learning - but just wanted to make a few observations regarding your posts.

1. You might want to check the settings on the Ewelly controllers, the default should be (from memory) 195c for the BT (on the left) and 230c for the AT (on the right). Press the SET button on each controller to check. As a few others have suggested, adjust the BT down if necessary (180 works well for a lower density bean, maybe up to 190 for a higher density).

2. One of the best pieces of advice I got from @DavecUK was that no two machines will give the same temp readings, so it's a matter of getting to know your machine and seeing what works for you. At 6 roasts you are still at a very early stage, and every time you try a new bean you will need to re-think how best to roast it. @Batian has some good advice in buying a cheaper (but reasonable quality) bean to practice on - getting to know your machine and to work on achieving consistency.

3. Don't fixate on when certain things MUST happen; there are too many factors at play (ambient temperature, humidity, type of bean, age of bean etc).In principle, FC on the Dalian (at 1kg batch size) probably should occur no sooner than 7 minutes, and no later than 13 minutes. Of equal importance is the amount of time between FC and when you dump the beans - have you read any thoughts from Sott Rao? He calls this the development time and suggests that it should be around 20% of the total roast time (although I believe he is softening on that stance!)

4. Are you logging your roast data as the roast progresses? Keeping a record will help to understand how your machine reacts to the various adjustments you make and the effects on the resulting roast. I roast manually and record everything on paper. I have attached my roast log template as an idea.

5. Finally - roasting is about creating fabulous coffee, it's not about producing curves and filling in roast logs. Focus on the taste of the end product! Cup your coffee 24-48 hours after roasting, but leave it to rest 5 - 10 days before really drinking it.

Good luck with the journey - keep asking questions and sharing your progress

PS: do you have the manuals for the roaster that Davec wrote? or are you just relying on the info in the forum posts?

View attachment Roasting Log.pdf


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

@GShal

@DavecUK has previously run one on one roasting sessions (Surry area) which are a very reasonable cost compared to binning kilo's of beans, although to be fair not sure how current covid issues affecting if he doing them if at all, might be worth you PM'ing him to ask.

Failing that, advice given above is good especially the bit about all the Dalian's behaving very slightly differently as voltage, environmental temps, bean storage etc will vary.

On the Scot Rao 20% development figure mentioned above as RCD8 states this is being taken a bit less as gospel and bear in mind each bean will have its own ideal development time (bearing in mind variances above) rather than a fixed figure, use it if anything as a guide and adjust from there. Personally am getting much better results for all brew methods much lower than this (note am not giving you a figure to aim at  ) just don't be afraid to try much lower development times to see what they taste like to you with your machine.

An Ethiopian may not be the easiest bean to get the best out of when starting out roasting as can be so many different varietals / density, Brasil's as suggested above or even Malabars / old brown javas etc (aged) may be an easier roast and slightly more forgiving of not being spot on.

Keep on trying and maybe try adding your roast details into the "Todays roast" thread for ease of finding / feedback

John


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## Beeroclock (Aug 10, 2015)

People often get hung up on the development time ratio - even Scott Rao has admitted this gets taken out of context. It's probably better to think of it in terms of time after FC. April roasters did an interesting youtube video on this.

I would suggest concentrating on an end temp/colour and working your way backwards. If you want a light roast - you'll probably need to extend your maillard phase to properly develop the bean and avoid vegetal notes. However extend the maillard too far and you'll lose all the acidity in the bean.

It is worth mentioning though that if you're using a 5mm probe as you bean temp - then the chances are the end temp will be higher than your probe is telling you. It looks like its fairly easy to rig up a 3mm Independent TC or RTD which will give you a far better idea of where you're at.

Cheers Phil


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Beeroclock said:


> People often get hung up on the development time ratio - even Scott Rao has admitted this gets taken out of context. It's probably better to think of it in terms of time after FC. April roasters did an interesting youtube video on this.
> 
> I would suggest concentrating on an end temp/colour and working your way backwards. If you want a light roast - you'll probably need to extend your maillard phase to properly develop the bean and avoid vegetal notes. However extend the maillard too far and you'll lose all the acidity in the bean.
> 
> ...


 Extend maillard much too far and get a savoury coffee. Roasting in the gene I found out the most important thing was time after first crack re dev time. Going to 20% was too much when the roast was already quite slow and the beans were drying out quickly in the hot air.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

johnealey said:


> @GShal
> 
> @DavecUK has previously run one on one roasting sessions (Surrey area) which are a very reasonable cost compared to binning kilo's of beans, although to be fair not sure how current covid issues affecting if he doing them if at all, might be worth you PM'ing him to ask.


 I'm not doing them at the moment, the last one I ran was over 8 months ago....I am not sure whether I will bother running any more, it's a lot of work and a very long day....Last year I made plans to stop everything to do with coffee when I hit 60. It was only attending Host Milan 2019 and a few other incidents in the UK that changed my mind. I'm limiting myself now to the most fun stuff which is helping test/develop new machines, grinders, roasters and generally coming up with ideas....working (unpaid, for the love of it) with some of the more innovative "owner" companies in the prosumer business who produce accessible kit..


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## GShal (Aug 30, 2020)

Thanks everyone. Really am very grateful for the responses.

I've got a large batch of Ethiopian so will carry on with that for the moment. Weirdly enough, I plugged in a multimeter today. I think I'm right in saying that it measures the air temp? Anyway, the lcd displayed 200 whilst the multimeter displayed 226. I'm not entirely sure what's going on there but am considering looking at how to plug in the bean mass probe.

I'm hoping it's not a fault (bought the dalian 2nd hand) but either way, I'll continue to adjust the roast and see how I get on.

I roasted at SD 5 and CA 5 today with 1kg. 1C was at 9:40 with the Bean mass saying 165. I left it to develop for another 1:40 mins before dumping. Will see how it tastes in a few days but colour looking good.

Anyway, thanks again and keep any suggestions coming.

Gus

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CJV8 (Apr 8, 2019)

I assume the probe you've connected to the multimeter is the 'spare' K-type in the front of the roast just next to the trier? If so this is the air temp, and will always be hotter than the Air Temp display on the roaster, as the probe for that readout is underneath the drum in the air ducting, whereas the one in the front is inside the drum and just underneath the heating element. I wouldn't worry about the roaster having a fault, the temperature offset sounds about the same as mine.


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

ref difference in readings, out of curiosity what is the analogue dial reading at the same point?

Ethiopian: where from (retailer), what type (i.e. Guji, Rocko Mountain, Yirgacheffe), grade of bean (if known : G1-G5 etc) and what was the year of harvest

I ask as may have a bearing on how you roast them and any advice on settings you may get back as well 

John


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## GShal (Aug 30, 2020)

Hi all,

Quick update.

Roasted again with the Ethiopian highland yiragacheffe G1

Ca set at 4 and sd 5

Temps 180 (206)
Temp dropped to 136 and turned at 3:07
Rose 4 degrees per minute until 1c at 11:30 at 168 (194)
I tried to slow the temp by reducing ca 3 and sd to 8
And at 13 mins I dumped. 
Roast seems dark but not burnt at all. I'll leave and see how it tastes. 
I'm trying the reduce the temp so I can get the flavour to mature but not sure if this is right.

Any thoughts?

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