# Is 10p a good coin to test E61 dose amount?



## tristansummers (Nov 5, 2017)

Hi

I am now months in to trying to use my ECM Tedchnika and not having much luck.

Today's question.

Is a 10p a good coin to test dose with?

I think dose is really the starting point I may have been getting wrong.

I realise it is also bean dependant

I have an IMS 200 shower screen.

I have been putting 18g into a IMS h24 basket

Today I tried a 10p and it squashed it right in.

I took it down to 16g so that the 10p only slightly went in

But that came through too fast. (10s from first drip = 40ml weighed)

But was still more drinkable than the super sour other tests

I am only worried I may not be able to gring fine enough with Fiorenzato t80 to get an acceptible speed. So then start increasing dose, but worried now about squashing...

So far my order of priority has been...

Fresh beans

18g

not too heavy tamp

try to adjust grind to get 25-35s

fail

drink super sour shot and go to work grumpy!

I have tested brew pressure as 11bar with Edesia Portafilter guage, but it is a 2002 machine so think it is tricky to adjust OPV

I am awaiting an ebay slovakian built Brew head thermometer, simlar to the EricS and Vidatech/designcofee ones

My present process is long flush, grind, weigh, tamp.

quick flush and brew straight away


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I use a penny but I can't imagine the thickness is much different. The important thing is that there is some head space and if your 10p was completely pressed in then this would have caused bad channeling and ruined your shot.

Once you adjusted to 16g did you then try going finer? Your grinder should be able to choke your machine even at 16g and below. Remember as you go finer the volume of the grinds on the basket will decrease as they pack tighter, so you may end up with 16.5-17g with the right grind/headspace.

Edit: also. Do you trust the beans.. Are they a known good bean? I have some at the moment that I just cannot get to flow properly, gave up half way through a kg bag and bought different ones. Light roasts are more difficult as well to get right if the beans are lighter than you are used to.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Some questions:

*1. Is the grinder a used one you purchased or have you had it from new*

*
2. Are the burrs new, did you replace them (did you use genuine burrs or cheap knock offs.*

3. *What coffee (exactly) are you using, when was it roasted*

4. The expansion valve is not tricky to adjust to get 9 bar

Your problem is not brew head thermometers and whether the pressure is 11 bar or not. Assuming the machine is at least working half decently, the problem will be either the beans or grinder. As even a half competent operator would have got some decent shots by now. If you would care to indicate your location, there may be a member local to you who can offer some more direct help.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

[quote=tristansummers;589079

I have been putting 18g into a IMS h24 basket

...

I am awaiting an ebay slovakian...

that basket is rated for 14-18g based on roast level/grind adjustment, you might be overdosing

and it is slovak, not slovakian (as in slovak republic)


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

From looking on IMS's site admittedly only on competition baskets for one make of machine I have a feeling that the weight range they quote on some is more down to what specific machine they are used on as shower screen projection into the baskets varies from one make to another.

https://www.imsfiltri.com/risultati-ricerca/?competition=0&post_type=i-filtri&comp=la-spaziale&type=0&Capienza=0&competition=competition-item&submit=Search&lang=en

Also hard to see how they could get round what generally happens when fill height is varied.

The OP should stick with 16g and grind finer. No point wondering best to try it and find out. I find light tamping isn't a good idea. Of late I've started using a calibrated one bought early on but not used until recently. Amazon UK have one for about £20. The finish is better than the photo.

I'd also suggest not being too wrapped up with some X out in X seconds. Machines have different brewing techniques so saying once suites all can't be correct.

John

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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

ajohn said:


> I'd also suggest not being too wrapped up with some X out in X seconds. Machines have different brewing techniques so saying once suites all can't be correct.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Without X out in X seconds you dont have a reference point to make changes from. I'm not sure what you mean by machines have different brewing techniques either - by and large a Gaggia Classic is the same principle as a machine 10x its price (with obvious exceptions when it comes to levers/profiling).

There is no one rule fits all for the beans - but when you have no idea what the extraction should be like its nice to have a starting point - so this is usually a 1:2 ratio grounds to espresso over 25 seconds. So if you put in 16g you start by extracting 32g in 25 seconds. Then you taste your shot and if its too sour you extract for longer, if its too bitter you extract less. Without this you are just shooting in the dark hoping you end up with something you like.


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## tristansummers (Nov 5, 2017)

Hi thanks so much for responding everyone.

Apologies to Slovaks.

I mentioned it in case anyone else had experience as he has sold a few.

Similar to the vidsatech one I think.

I just wanted to rule out temperature as an issue, as it is HX so fluctates a lot after flushing at different wait times.

Pressure seems ok, but high

The old OPV would need to be disassembled and possibly cut to adjust. It is not like newer ones that you can just turn.

That is a bit of work and I am a bit scared to do that

I got the grinder refurb from coffeesupplies in London and I bought new burrs and removed the auto sensor so I could sweep out grinds.

I soldered the wires together and this is touching the plastic on the doser so should not be causing static(?)

I don't usally dose as I grind.

I have been trying many beans, but recently from a local (Crystal Palace) roaster so known to be a week since roasting and working elsewhere.

They worked well at 18g but I could still never get over about 10s for 40ml before it just didn't come through at all.

I simply can't tweak the grind, it is too fast or nothing.

So I thought I would go back and reset the dose.

The basket says 12-18 for a 24mm high basket. So I was dosing at the top of that so there was not lots of headroom, as previously I had a lot of wet mush at 17g

I am measuring from the first drops, as i know E61 has preinfusion, and have watched the pressure increase with the portafilter.

I can't grind finer without the burrs touching

I am not getting any lea way, Fast flow or nothing at all.

I measured 30 lbs a few times on scales for tamping. Basically it feels like push until it stops. I was pushing much harder before. Maybe this was cracking.

I think I need to get the dose right then the grind, but realise with some beans it just does not work whatever you do. I had a 2.5kg bag of micella bar espresso beans from Algerian Coffee Stores that never worked and I think that was the beans

So my next step is to get a big bag of known working beans and start again, checking dose first so I know it is neither too squashed ot too mushy. Will also try with nemox lux, though the burrs quite old on that.

I am sure it is usre inexperience, but really hard to find what it is. Have tasted a lot of sour mud.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

From your description my guess is also the beans.

Also make sure you are distributing the grounds well after grinding. Grinding into a milk jug and giving them a shake about does a very good job of this.


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## tristansummers (Nov 5, 2017)

Grinder was from http://www.coffeecupequipment.co.uk/ I think they know what they are doing and the grinder should have been fine until I got it.

I have cleaned out the threads so it turns smoothly

It does seem slightly off centre though

I thought this might just be an intentional torque thing, but maybe this is the real issue.

I will double check but my patience is wearing thin.

I had a service person come out and look at the machine who said everything semed to be fine.

I could service the group head.

I am sure it is just dose grind tamp problem, but I am getting to the point where nothing improves things.

For a while, I was getting better results with 20g flat bottom IMS barista pro nano tech basket.

I got one or two grind notches that worked. But spurting channeling mess usually.

I don't want this to beat me!

(I am not sure I even really like espresso or milky drinks, life was easier in the stovetop or aeropress days)


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## tristansummers (Nov 5, 2017)

The fast 16g yesterday tasted better, but one notch down and didn't come through at all.

I will keep trying, and checking the clearance is similar

I was shocked that clearance was so little for a small dose. But I guess the extra shower screen reduces space.

In the first weeks I was putting 14g in as I assumed that was standard double so should work in a double basket.

You see I am a rookie.

It takes a lot of time and money to nail, and if it turns out to be the grinder I will probably cry


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## tristansummers (Nov 5, 2017)

Bean wise, I recently tried Volcano's full steam. First couple worked and I thought YES IT WAS THE BEANS

but then I lost it again and could n't get anything drinkable at all. fast or nothing. Trying again with firehouse which is meant to work espresso, but noticed it was roasted two weeks ago, so maybe a bit stale.

Same thing happened with beans from a new roaster in Crystal Palace Brewtal who sells at Blowing Dandelion coffee shop.

I got paranoid about storage so kept in sealed bag, inside a container, in the cupboard. I used to decant into airtight container, kept in tea cupboard.

I then had a couple of hits with some weiss pin stirring

But then that wasn't consistent either.

Then I thought my flushing was not correct, as I was doing a large cup the flushing, not knowing the temperature contuniues to fall BELOW due to reverse thermo.

I am trying to be consistent. But I realise another week of experiments is needed before I can find the problem.

Or move it all the classifeds!

It is an ECM Technika 2 which is basically the original Giotto, and Firenzato T80 with new generic burrs

basket is B70 2 TC H24


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

A few questions -

It sounds like channeling - guessing you are getting different pours shot to shot? I think you are basically saying this happens above.

Are you using a naked PF or spouts? A naked PF is VERY useful for diagnosing channeling.

Try the grinding into a milk jug and shaking it about distribution technique (needs a catchier name)

What are the beans you are using like, are they dark or light or middling etc?

FYI, unless the beans have been sat out on the countertop 2 weeks wont make stale beans.

Both your machine and grinder are more than capable. If the inconsistency remains it may be worth investigating the grinder, but its worth eliminating all other variables first. I'm unsure if it could be the beans when you have tried several, but it may be worth picking up some known good beans to eliminate the possibility. I was recently having issues with a bean (very similar to your problems, couldn't get a good pour from one to the next) and switched to Rave's Chatswood which is pulling beautifully and virtually identically every shot - so something easy like this would tell you if your looking in the right place.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I've a funny feeling it might be the grinder.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

This thread explains why weight isn't an accurate gauge of what amount of a particular bean should go into a basket, also why the amount needed might not relate to what the makers such as IMS competition state.







I've also had a closer look at what I get up to.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?43975-Coffee-Puck-sticking-to-shower-screen

I'd suggest you fill a basket, tamp it and check the clearance with the thinnest coin in you pocket. That's likely to be a 1p. Go for a very slight impression. Then check the weight of grinds and use that as a basis for shots. For consistency I suspect you may find that you need to increase it.

I have an ancient externally beat up Doge for a source of bits. I've not ground any beans with it but it runs very sweetly and no signs of any play. I also have new burrs for it. I've no idea what worn out burrs will do to a shot.

Anyway what I have suggested works with both a Sage and a Mazzer grinder. I haven't tuned the Sage yet to see how it compares with the Mazzer. What I have found is if the grinds are too low channelling is far more likely, channelling wont be consistent. Get it right and the result will be a pretty flat top to the puck. On some baskets I use it's best to see slight signs of the shower screen on it but these are singles. A double or 12g and up should be a lot easier.

Machines do vary though. I have a feeling from use that pucks from my Piccino are better behaved than either of my Sage machine and if the BE's screen is clear and not messed up that one is better than the DB. I reckon it's all down to the shower screen being used and how it's fed with water.







The DB is perhaps more consistently bad so can be worked around. Too few, too big holes behind the screen I suspect.

Not sure but think you might be using an HX machine (heat exchanger). I want to try one but have been reluctant to buy due to how they have to be used. The brew water is heated via the steam boiler which means that when it's not pulling a shot it gets very hot. The general idea of how to use these machines is to flush first and then pull the shot. Going on cafes I have visited that use them 5 secs should be enough but more wont hurt. The alternative is to allow it to get hot on every shot. I believe this aspect is why @DavecUK reckons they should be banned but on the other hand many like them.

John

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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

He mentions in the OP that he does a long flush, so I dont think it will be over-hot water. My machine also requires a long flush to get down to temp. I don't really understand the advice often given to only flush until the over-hot spitting water stops, this water is clearly past boiling and bad for the puck, but if you stop flushing just after this you still have a super hot group and water at or near 100deg.

For me I flush after a long idle until my Eric's thermometer reads 98, this is a large flush that is completely filling the HX with new water. This temp cereals down to roughly 95 as I grind and prep and then the shot pulls at 97 or so (temp in Eric's is roughly 1deg higher than at puck). If I didn't have the Eric's and stopped the flush after the initial spitting stopped it would pull at 100degrees easily, way too hot.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

When I have seen one flushed in a cafe it has been portafilter off.

John

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Not sure but think you might be using an HX machine (heat exchanger). I want to try one but have been reluctant to buy due to how they have to be used. The brew water is heated via the steam boiler which means that when it's not pulling a shot it gets very hot. The general idea of how to use these machines is to flush first and then pull the shot. Going on cafes I have visited that use them 5 secs should be enough but more wont hurt. The alternative is to allow it to get hot on every shot. I believe this aspect is why @DavecUK reckons they should be banned but on the other hand many like them.
> 
> John
> 
> -


When have I said they should be banned?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

ajohn said:


> When I have seen one flushed in a cafe it has been portafilter off.
> 
> John
> 
> -


I dont think anyone suggested otherwise did they?


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## tristansummers (Nov 5, 2017)

Oh you get logged out when you compose for too long.

Ok

!

Hi

I have not set up email alerts, so only just checking back in.

Thanks so much everyone for all the input.

I am sure all this is ahorrible deja vu for most of you.

I have read a lot, since buying the machine in November, and hopefully it will all click into place soon.

HX machine (ECM Technika 2(Giotto) tank filled with water filtered with scale and carbon (iX connect *iX POLYPHOSPHATE - recommended by espresso solutions - fridge water feed recommended and cheap (£30 two years)*, known working beans, 0.1g scale weighed ground coffee, filling a max 45ml shot glass, water back flush every day, cafezia every week or so, Dezcal put through recently)

I started this thread, as I realised dose was something I needed to focus on, maybe even the cause of all problems.

Previously I think I was over dosing, tamping too hard, flushing lots right before shot.

DOSE

Usually I put 18g in

i get slight shower screen indent but otherwise best so far with that.

10p gave me 16g, which worked once but not again.

I will try a penny as my guide now to get dose right for bean/basket combo.

And I will try grind into dry milk jug shake as distribution help.

I dose into a doser at the moment.

FLUSH

If a HX machine has been idle for a long time and got very hot, a long flush causes it to keep dropping in temperature for about 30s, reverse thermo-syphon or something, according to ericS info. After that a quick flush and is fine to keep it at temp.

I ordered the E61 thermometer off the guy in Slovakia on eBay fro £45 +£5p+p to keep an eye on this and get the flushing bit right.

I did try known working beans but I am now worried I was doing other things wrong so I shall keep trying. I may enlist professional help from local baristas!

I get the feeling prosumer machines may be harder to please than commercial ones.

I could do with finding a cheaper way to get fresh espresso beans just to practice on before spending £7 a 250g bag on good coffee.

No point trying on supermarket beans as they don't seem to work.

I think the basket is pretty fussy. Curved base. problems began with the basket. But I am/was still learning.

I am using naked portafilter.

I rarely get a nice steady central stream.

Usually spurting. usually channelling

trying to be careful with tamping.

tried shaping with the attacheched convex tamp on the grinder.

tried carefully NorthSouthEastWest before main tamp.

Tried WDT pin stirring.

I find I try to change one small thing and get wildly different results, literally run out of beans and give up.

Take a day off to regain compsure and start again.

But I am hoping I become better and stronger because of it!

Possible grinder issues?

static.

Maybe from the auto unit removal and joined wires.

inconsistency?

There is a bit of play between the 4/5 notches on the adjuster button.

I have it set 14.5 (below zero)

14 and the burrs start touching

15 and it is way way too fast.

so there is about 6 notches betyween 14-15.

total lock of burrs is about 13.

A couple of times it has refused to put beans out at all, just whizzed around.

Had to dismantle, clean, hoover.

Now my Dyson smells of stale coffee.

It takes a LONG time to clean the nooks and crannies of a dyson.

It is annoying that it has a gap under the burrs that traps grinds, and I shall try to get the right sized washer to fill this.

I can service the E61 head just to double check but it is hard finding time.

I was offered a refund / replacement on the grinder but I wanted to make sure it was not other things.

I will probably try to get a check / service at least.

TRIS


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

My girlfriend rather quickly banned me from using the vacuum when I started out with the coffee thing - I too had to thoroughly clean the hoover.

I think DavecUK is right in that it is beginning to sound like the grinder may be the culprit - if you begin to seek the help of a professional, make sure you ask them to bring their own grinder. Alternatively let the forum know your location, if you get very lucky you might have another member nearby who can lend you a grinder or pop round.

I think the reason your 18g shot (with the shower screen indentation) was the one that worked best is because the coffee had no room to expand - when the water hits the puck it absorbs it and begins to expand (you can see this happening when you pour water over coffee in a v60 or french press) - if the grind quality is poor or the beans very difficult this does not happen evenly and water simply find a way to channel through the puck and you will get under extracted shots which gush all over the place as the pour. If there is no headroom then the coffee is kept compacted, it is more difficult for the water to make its way through so it will naturally be forced around the puck more - however it will still channel as the water is almost directly pushed into the puck at the points it exits the shower screen and wont extract correctly.

So don't be tempted to go for the larger amount as it seems to be working a bit better - you always need headroom for a good extraction.

To my mind it could only be one of two things - bad grinder or bad beans. You seem pretty sure it cant be the beans as you have ones which are good - if you are sure of this then spending another £7 on beans wont help, but if you aren't sure then £7 is a lot less than having barista training







(training is still a great thing to have when you are starting out however)

In terms of the grinder you there are ways to test if its misbehaving:

- Run the grinder with no beans - it should make a smooth humming sound - any mechanical wobble sound and its likely a dud.

- Run the grinder with no beans then very slowly tighten the grinder until you hear it 'chirping' this is the point where the two closest parts of the grinder very nearly touch and the burrs resonate. At this point the grinder should be producing talc like grounds, very fine indeed - grind some coffee and see what it looks like - does it look like an even grind.

- After doing the above thing turn the lower burr by hand (unplug the grinder for this) if it turns freely tighten the grind a bit - you are looking for the point where those two points that are the highest 'rub' - at this point you should be very very close to burr lock - if the burrs are significantly uneven they will run freely through most of the turn and then have a single sticking point - burrs that are in better alignment will rub over more of the turn. Difficult to describe but you can get a 'feel' for how well the grinder is aligned.

Just to address your other points -

Prosumer machines are as good as identical to commercial ones, what goes for a commercial 2-3 group goes for a Prosumer HX.

It is very unlikely that your group head will be causing the problem unless the machine is spurting out water or pushing it through too fast then its job is so very simple that even an old unserviced group can still pull a shot without the issues you are having.

1p will make no difference to 10p - although it may possibly allow you to get another .3g or something in there, but this isn't your problem as far as I can see.

If you lose a post the forum usually would have 'autosaved' it and it can be retrieved - also check the box that says keep me signed in and enable cookies for the site.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

tristansummers said:


> I could do with finding a cheaper way to get fresh espresso beans just to practice on before spending £7 a 250g bag on good coffee.
> 
> No point trying on supermarket beans as they don't seem to work.


If you like chocolate/nutty flavours you could do alot worse than Coffee Compass Mystery #8 only £13 a kilo.


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## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

....or check out the Rave website. Free delivery over £25


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Oh yea, was going to say the same as the above two posts as well defo grab a KG bag from someone like Rave/coffeecompas(10% forum discount)


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## tristansummers (Nov 5, 2017)

Thanks for coffee tips galore. So using 1p had helped and I'm basically now putting 20g in. I still get only one setting on either grinder that runs at 25s ish. And it tastes a bit better. Really brings out the lemon, but much of the chocolate. 20g seems like a lot for what is really just a double basket. But the penny is but squashed in, just touches sightly. But i think I still am doing something wrong as still get channeling or two or three streams instead of one. So need to get better at distribution. Been grinding into pot then funneling into basket. Tried the finger doing stockfondle thing to level top. Think I'm tamping level. Gently 3-9 o clock, gently 1-6 oclock then properly again at 3-6. Maybe cracking happens then. Tried tapping. Tried grinding into jar that's 58mm wide and shaking level. Tried dose whacking add i grind. Hopefully I'll get to nice taste one day, but the aero press is always nice

Will try the bigger flat bottom basket next. Think grinders are ok but thought i would get more granularity with the Fiorenzato. Seems same as the nemox lux.


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## tristansummers (Nov 5, 2017)

What is wrong with this reply thing? Why don't I have permission to quick reply?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

2 or 3 mouse tails isn't necessarily an indicator of channelling, sometimes it simply means the grinds are fairly tight/ compact and even so it isn't a problem per se. Often a shot can start with 3 and they unify into one halfway through. As long as it tastes good it doesn't matter.

Channelling is when water finds an easy path straight through a fault in the puck which leads to uneven extracting (part under/ part over or just all under) which will have a tendency to be too fast, sour and thin. You'll usually see a thin spray or jet (aka spritzer). Hope that helps.

_______

The only V8 I'm likely to own comes in one litre tetrapaks and tastes like celery.

Cushions were invented by women to stop men from sitting on the sofa.


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## tristansummers (Nov 5, 2017)

Thanks. Makes sense I think. Also I think I panic sometimes when the E61 is pre-infusing. I time it from first couple of drips. I had terrible spurting before. I think grinding into a jar first is helping a bit with distribution.

I am more worried that it tastes super lemony, no sweetness, and I only have one grind setting that is between 10seconds and none at all. Will try with coffeecompass mystery8 next. Hope this hasn't logged me out again!


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Jog all that 3-9/1-6 tamping crap on.

Try this: hand tap to distribute, 1x vertical drop (GENTLY) and then tamp once, level and well.


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