# Rave signature isues!



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Hi guys

I'm not sure what the problem is here; me, the beans or some misunderstanding of what I should be getting...

Anyway, let me explain:

For 2 years now I've mostly been grinding and extracting based on my judgement, and I have to say it's been going generally well I think. Occasionally I may do some weighing in and out, but have found that I'm usually not too far out at all - and most importantly the coffee tastes good.

But having recently got a better machine and toying with the idea of a new grinder and wanting to up my game I felt I should employ a bit more science.

So I got a kilo of these - weighed in and out my shot - but I'm not happy with the outcome. Only one of maybe 8 shots has been good...

Is this bean extremely dark and oily for others during extraction?

I usually use Has Bean or sometimes Union's lighter/medium roasts and I wonder if this is just a bit darker than I'm used to?

What do others get from this; is it easy to over-extract?

By the way I've run the last of my Union kilo and 1x or 2x 250g of Has Bean through the new machine with very good results (for me) so I think it's a me and this bean thing - not a me and the machine thing!

All thoughts very welcome - many thanks!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

What weights are you doing?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Weight in

Weight out

Extraction temp

Time it took

How does it taste , bitter , balanced , sweet , sour ...

And how are you drinking it ( espresso , milk based , americano )

Without any of these , any comments or help is meaningless


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Thanks for help and speedy responses!

So, to cover off both your questions;

Weight in - 19.5g

Weight out - aiming for 31.2 (had a tad less and a tad more) based on the 1.6 formula...

Extraction temp - Erm, no idea... [Gulp!]

Time it took - Tried it as 30s for about 32g and down to 25s for 27g odd

How does it taste , bitter , balanced , sweet , sour ... - grim, bitter or sour (wish I could taste the difference!) I think more sour actually... Sort of burnt and sour and strangely acidic at the same time!

And how are you drinking it ( espresso , milk based , americano ) With 20 gallons of milk!

Is it supposed to be super thick and dark; I'm guessing so?!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Super thick will largely be a result of the brew ratio, if it's so thick you are finding it hard to evaluate the flavour, try a longer ratio.

Your volumes out are swinging +/- 2g, it would be good to get tighter control on that.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Longer ratio you mean from 19.5g to more than 31.2g - i.e. more than 1.6; moving toward 1.7 etc?

The problem was with the longer ratio i.e. more 'stuff' out was it tasted like how coffee tastes when you overextract it or pull it for too long, that sort of 'not dissimilar to stale' kinda taste...

Please excuse my lack of a.) terminology; and b.) taste sophistication!

My gut feel, which could easily be wrong, is that it was right at a lower ratio - but it's just a cluggy, strong coffee. I wonder if I'm more used to less 'big' flavours?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

If your used to hasbean, then maybe its just the step up to a darker roast that is causing you taste issue.

Back to basics i would say, start weighing in at 14-15g and pull out 23-24g and have a little taste before adding milk.

Maybe you could try the same ratios with your other non rave beans and taste before adding milk, see what the difference is?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

froggystyle said:


> If your used to hasbean, then maybe its just the step up to a darker roast that is causing you taste issue.


I fear so!



froggystyle said:


> Back to basics i would say, start weighing in at 14-15g and pull out 23-24g and have a little taste before adding milk.


Excuse my ignorance but is such a low dose going to work in a basket of that size? Presumably I'll need to tighten the grind up rather substantially at that level?



froggystyle said:


> Maybe you could try the same ratios with your other non rave beans and taste before adding milk, see what the difference is?


I'm willing to try (almost) anything...


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Sorry i presumed you were using a standard double?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Indeed I am! But I've always dosed them at 18-20g. Is that a long-standing and fundamental mistake?!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jonc said:


> Longer ratio you mean from 19.5g to more than 31.2g - i.e. more than 1.6; moving toward 1.7 etc?
> 
> The problem was with the longer ratio i.e. more 'stuff' out was it tasted like how coffee tastes when you overextract it or pull it for too long, that sort of 'not dissimilar to stale' kinda taste...
> 
> ...


Sorry, by "longer" I really mean "heavier". So yes, maybe head more towards 1:2 but try to keep the ratio the same when dialling in.

Try pushing through what you think is overextracted, it may not be, you might hit another sweet spot? Overextracting is drying & bitter, if your shots just lack sweetness & are flat/roasty you might just be in another region of underextraction, rather than over.

Your coffee is cluggy & strong because of the short ratio, to make it less so, down dose and/or aim for a heavier beverage out. The thickness is a byproduct of the high coffee to water ratio & not enough water getting into the shot to thin out the non dissolved matter (fats & tiny particles) giving you the mouthfeel in the cup.

Changing bean will just shift the problem.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Ok, I guess it depends on your basket, plus the bean.

I can get 18g in my classic double, but then it hits the shower screen and i am sure that doesn't help extraction.

If your getting 18-20g in and confident its not touching the screen then dose that weight, as MWJB says though, if its really thick and dark it could be to much in the portafilter, drop the weight and see if it thins out and tastes better.

I defiantly think comparing both beans at the same ratios, time and temps could be a good starting point.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

When you pop the portafilter out, what does the puck look like, soggy, dry, covered in water?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Ok, Ok these responses are really helpful; thank you.

So I think here we have neatly highlighted a massive failure in my standard approach over the past x years! Oh dear.

Let me reflect and revisit the drawing board...


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

froggystyle said:


> When you pop the portafilter out, what does the puck look like, soggy, dry, covered in water?


Fairly solid, but I think I may be getting the odd imprint of the shower screen... I hadn't really appreciated that could be an issue until the last couple of days - which is maybe a little concerning!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Chuck a triple in if you want to weigh in more, just extract longer...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> I defiantly think comparing both beans at the same ratios, time and temps could be a good starting point.


If the roasts & beans are substantially different, that's all that will be confirmed by this test. The HasBean, if lighter, will be less intense at the short ratio, it's sounding like the Rave needs a different ratio to get a comparable result, or at least to get something to JonC's preference.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

MWJB said:


> If the roasts & beans are substantially different, that's all that will be confirmed by this test. The HasBean, if lighter, will be less intense at the short ratio, it's sounding like the Rave needs a different ratio to get a comparable result, or at least to get something to JonC's preference.


Thanks, I see what you mean Mark... But Mark is 19.5g too much do you think, generally I mean (please)?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Also would running this closer to 1:2 help - because the strength would presumably be subdued considerably by the milk - or am I missing the point?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jonc said:


> Thanks, I see what you mean Mark... But Mark is 19.5g too much do you think, generally I mean (please)?


No, generally, your double could be a few g either side of this. But a deeper puck will give you more 'body', you seem to be saying this wasn't an issue with HasBean, but it is an issue (subjectively regarding your taste) with the Rave. A slightly smaller dose may reign in the body.



jonc said:


> Also would running this closer to 1:2 help - because the strength would presumably be subdued considerably by the milk - or am I missing the point?


I wasn't considering milk. The milk, or water you add to the shot doesn't affect the extraction at all, when you kill the shot all the extracting action is done & dusted. The flavour balance is set. Adding milk/water just dilutes the extraction, the milk may take the edge off acidity/intensity. Get the shot itself tasting right, then if it needs to be punchier when milk is added, tweak the shots to a tighter ratio (1:


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

My first if simple observation is that Rave and Hasbean are miles apart re taste and roasting profile which "could be" the simple answer.

My second thought is how old are the Rave beans as we know they need 7 if not 10 days standing time post roasting to come to their prime.

Ian


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Eyedee said:


> My first if simple observation is that Rave and Hasbean are miles apart re taste and roasting profile which "could be" the simple answer.
> 
> Ian


Both should taste "good", at least, assuming no malfunctions, if each is sufficiently extracted & at a pleasing intensity level. If you like coffee, neither should taste "bad", whether they fit a personal preference, expectation, or perception of style is another matter. But you may need different recipes to get both to shine.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

MWJB said:


> I wasn't considering milk. The milk, or water you add to the shot doesn't affect the extraction at all, when you kill the shot all the extracting action is done & dusted. The flavour balance is set. Adding milk/water just dilutes the extraction, the milk may take the edge off acidity/intensity. Get the shot itself tasting right, then if it needs to be punchier when milk is added, tweak the shots to a tighter ratio (1:
> 
> Sure, but to clarify - I am tasting this in milk - so just wasn't sure whether running it longer would have a benefit. I mean essentially if you pull a shorter (erm, ristretto?) shot I would think the flavour would only be deintensified by running it longer before it then got over extracted...
> 
> ...although on further consideration you seem to be saying that the flavours gained in that early part of the shot may be complemented by more sweet flavours extracted thereafter rather than diluted by 'more liquid' per se?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

On consideration of the above posts I think:

a. this rave stuff is a bit dark roast/strong for my liking;

b. errors are being made in extracting that are adding flavours I shouldn't be getting to the shot - and making it taste less nice (to my tastes!) still...

So I'm thinking, do I persevere as it will be character and skill building - or post up 750g of Rave beans on the swap forum - and spend my time playing with something the good results of which I will actually appreciate!?!

Either way there's an important lesson or two here that I need to learn, I'm sure!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I would keep the rave beans, just try different things with them, test them as espresso or americano, you don't have to drink the whole shot just have a little taste and see if you can get to a shot with no sourness or bitterness...

Play with the grind, temp, weights even if its just to learn something.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jonc said:


> Sure, but to clarify - I am tasting this in milk - so just wasn't sure whether running it longer would have a benefit. I mean essentially if you pull a shorter (erm, ristretto?) shot I would think the flavour would only be deintensified by running it longer before it then got over extracted...
> 
> ...although on further consideration you seem to be saying that the flavours gained in that early part of the shot may be complemented by more sweet flavours extracted thereafter rather than diluted by 'more liquid' per se?


OK, this is common, but you are muddling the 2 concepts of "brew ratio/dilution" with "extraction".

Extraction starts with flow through the bed & ends when you kill the shot. When the shot stops your coffee will be underextracted, or in a reasonable range of extraction (no obvious defects), or possibly overextracted (less likely but not impossible at short ratios). This state is dependent on all of the solids dissolved at all stages in the shot, combined in the cup - the early, middle & late, individually they'll often all taste bad, but mixed together they should taste good.

Extraction is separate, but related to, brew ratio/dilution. The brew ratio sets how concentrated the shot's ideal target is. If your shot is too thick & intense you need a longer ratio/bigger drink (from the same dose).

Whether you are pulling at 1:4, 1:2, 1:1.3 you are consistently aiming to dissolve ~1/5 of the coffee in the portafilter into the cup.

A long shot will only be overextracted if you have ground too fine, for that brew ratio. If you want to keep the intensity up to cut through milk, pull short & dilute the shot with a little water when tasting to dial in (so you're not put off by the thickness/punch), when it tastes good repeat but add the milk to the neat shot.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Im still puzzled by people assessing coffee in milk. Milk isnt a blank canvass in the same way a drop of water opens up a fine whisky. Milk is sweet , and if steaming it you actually influence just how sweet.

Milk hides a multitude of sins. Best off being comfortable with the extraction in advance of creating milk drinks


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Something with seems to have been ignored so far is the hint about burnt tastes, Signature is a long way from being a charcoal roast so it could be that you aren't flushing enough to get to the right temperature for this particular bean.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

garydyke1 said:


> Im still puzzled by people assessing coffee in milk. Milk isnt a blank canvass in the same way a drop of water opens up a fine whisky. Milk is sweet , and if steaming it you actually influence just how sweet.


Firstly, I find espresso without milk too much of a taste assault - and although I would love to taste it this way to really assess it accurately I find it way harder than doing it in even the smallest amount of milk.



garydyke1 said:


> Milk hides a multitude of sins. Best off being comfortable with the extraction in advance of creating milk drinks


Secondly, I only drink espresso with milk - and I need the help in sin hiding







- so if it's still undrinkable to me with milk, then I know there's a serious issue!


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Charliej said:


> Something with seems to have been ignored so far is the hint about burnt tastes, Signature is a long way from being a charcoal roast so it could be that you aren't flushing enough to get to the right temperature for this particular bean.


I don't think this is the issue to be honest although I can't be sure. None of the other coffee that's come out of that machine has been anything other than lovely to my unrefined palate.

Will make up a filter coffee tomorrow with this stuff see if it still tastes like mud.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I tried signature and couldn't get on with ( although I'm not a massive milk drinker). I thought it was more sweet/zingier taste than bitter.

Really like everything else that's ever come from Rave. I'm thinking of getting a Rave T shirt or tattoo


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jonc said:


> Firstly, I find espresso without milk too much of a taste assault - and although I would love to taste it this way to really assess it accurately I find it way harder than doing it in even the smallest amount of milk.
> 
> Secondly, I only drink espresso with milk - and I need the help in sin hiding
> 
> ...


I agree poorly extracted espresso is a taste insult. If its undrinkable in milk its way way off


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

garydyke1 said:


> I agree poorly extracted espresso is a taste insult. If its undrinkable in milk its way way off


And I find it impossible to discern what's wrong in espresso - the flavour's too big - once dumbed down in milk I find it far easier! Realise this will seem odd to some.


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## Walter Sobchak (Nov 29, 2012)

My current kg of signature seems to be tastier to me after 20 days rest.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

garydyke1 said:


> I agree poorly extracted espresso is a taste insult. If its undrinkable in milk its way way off


GOOD NEWS!

Finally getting decent results (although I still don't really like this coffee)... Seemed to me 1:1.5 was about right - 1:1.6 started to produce some unpleasant flavours.

And Gary - following your prompting I braved it, and tried the espresso shots first - the good one in milk was rather nice as espresso, so I think I'm going to try this more and more!

Thanks to everyone for their help; in summary my previous assessment was right I don't like this beans flavour, but I wasn't getting the best from it nonetheless!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jonc said:


> GOOD NEWS!
> 
> Finally getting decent results (although I still don't really like this coffee)... Seemed to me 1:1.5 was about right - 1:1.6 started to produce some unpleasant flavours.
> 
> ...


Tasting is good, perhaps not to enjoy but to objectively assess if you've done a good job. Like tasting a stock prior to making a soup - get the stock wrong and the soup might not be great either ?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I really struggled with espresso when i first got the classic, but after lowering the pressure and getting to grips with all the different aspects, i can knock one back now, not to many mind, prefer amerecano or with a drop of milk.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

garydyke1 said:


> Tasting is good, perhaps not to enjoy but to objectively assess if you've done a good job. Like tasting a stock prior to making a soup - get the stock wrong and the soup might not be great either ?


Oh, my cooking is worse than my espresso making...


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