# Milk - flavour killer?



## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

I was wondering how many people take milk with their brewed coffee and if so, how? I'm thinking that it probably flattens out a lot of the more subtle flavours in good coffee and for me personally the point of drinking good coffee is to taste these flavours. Should I therefore be thinking of ditching the white stuff?

(I realise it's ultimately personal preference but this is more about how to optimise the flavour that I'm working hard to achieve)

I'm currently using an aeropress and feldgrind/sage sgp but looking in to a kalita and chemex potentially


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Personally, I don't take milk in coffee, nor in anything else.

However if someone likes milk in their coffee, however it is made, then I don't see anything wrong with that. You can always make your coffee stronger to stand up to milk better.

I don't see why more subtle flavours are any preferable to bolder flavours, if it's a flavour I like I don't want to have to work hard to find it.

Bad brew technique, very oily/silty coffee & very high bicarbonate content in your water can also obscure flavours, but some people like the body from a bit of silt & might like attenuated acidity from high bicarbonate, so it's tricky to suggest that these are in any way 'wrong' either.

Make the coffee how you like it. You make coffee to enjoy it, it's not a game of "Simon says..."


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

I used to take milk, until I realised just how difficult it was making my life in finding the right grind / recipe etc.

It took a little bit to get used to it without, but I wouldn't go back now. My partner, on the other hand thinks I am nuts, and can't stand it without.

I was right, though - milk was hiding some nasties from me and not letting me taste some of the finer points either. I doubt you will find too many people who take milk on here (in non milk based drinks of course)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Up to the drinker. Milk will often add sweetness but on some flavour profiles can turn them proper sour if added in small amounts.

Don't expect to necessarily hit the notes on the coffee with milk added.

Chemexes also are really delicate brews adding milk for me just kills em but, I've added milk to v60 and areopress and fp for people.

Personally I drink filter black, the only milk drinks I have are when I'm out,but it's personal choice.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I'll add to the above, the one mistake I made with filter early one, is just tasting it when it's too hot.

Flacours simply don't develop and it can convey a weakness of brew If drink too hot.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> I'll add to the above, the one mistake I made with filter early one, is just tasting it when it's too hot.
> 
> Flacours simply don't develop and it can convey a weakness of brew If drink too hot.


Definitely learnt this over the last couple of weeks since I started putting more effort in to my coffee. I didn't get a lot from a few coffees that were too hot other than a bit of bitterness and a burnt tongue.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Interesting points above and all are along the lines I sort of expected to be honest. As I said I realise it's a personal thing but there is also that element of learning what I like still for me as I'm new to this so I'm going to try some brews I know to work well (for my taste anyway) and leave the milk out and see what I think. It's good fun experimenting and unlike with my espresso efforts I've not made an undrinkable filter coffee yet lol


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

GingerBen said:


> Definitely learnt this over the last couple of weeks since I started putting more effort in to my coffee. I didn't get a lot from a few coffees that were too hot other than a bit of bitterness and a burnt tongue.


It really makes a huge difference.

I don't pre heat cups or my chemex or my server anymore.

Are you a whisky drinker btw


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> It really makes a huge difference.
> 
> I don't pre heat cups or my chemex or my server anymore.
> 
> Are you a whisky drinker btw


I use a double-walled glass mug and never pre-heat these days. I even leave it for 10 minutes before taking the first sip!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

fatboyslim said:


> I use a double-walled glass mug and never pre-heat these days. I even leave it for 10 minutes before taking the first sip!


Dutch the double wall and get a nice porcelain cup or mug.. Will cool quicker


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> It really makes a huge difference.
> 
> I don't pre heat cups or my chemex or my server anymore.
> 
> Are you a whisky drinker btw


Bourbon and rum - not together


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

GingerBen said:


> Bourbon and rum - not together


So do you add coke to your bourbon....


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> So do you add coke to your bourbon....


only if it's a rough one lol otherwise just ice


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## Tewdric (Apr 20, 2014)

A medium or dark roast pour-over can be lovely with milk, a comfort drink just as a really good steak and kidney pudding for supper is, on occasion, preferable to hâute cuisine.

If you want to taste the coffee, quality pour-over, like espresso, is best drunk without.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

GingerBen said:


> only if it's a rough one lol otherwise just ice


You've answered your milk and filter question then


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> You've answered your milk and filter question then


 I thought that's where you were going with it lol.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Just brewed my best cup of coffee yet. Extract - Chinga PB Kenyan

15g at 1.8 on the feldgrind

Inverted AP

125g water and stir for 5 seconds or so

125g water and leave cap off until 1 min

Put cap on at 1 min and flip at 1:30

Plunge at 2:30 for 30 seconds.

Lovely cup (no milk!) really hit the notes of muscavado and cooked raisins (garibaldi they say but I just get that dark almost slightly burnt raisin sweetness). I noticed the real sweetness seemed to sink to the bottom of the cup as it really hit with the last mouthful. Is this a product of the coffee actually settling in the cup or the lower temp at the end?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> Just brewed my best cup of coffee yet. Extract - Chinga PB Kenyan
> 
> I noticed the real sweetness seemed to sink to the bottom of the cup as it really hit with the last mouthful. Is this a product of the coffee actually settling in the cup or the lower temp at the end?


Could be both settling (if there's some stratification, more likely with drip) & temp, but I tend to find the sweetness more accessible under 55C. I don't see much point in trying to drink it much hotter than this as it's likely to be disappointing.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Just made the same brew but loosened the grind a tad to 1.10 on the feldgrind. Much sweeter but maybe a touch too far. 1.9 could be the magic number for this so I'll try that next. Still an excellent cup though


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> Just made the same brew but loosened the grind a tad to 1.10 on the feldgrind. Much sweeter but maybe a touch too far. 1.9 could be the magic number for this so I'll try that next. Still an excellent cup though


You poor thing, your coffee is too sweet? 

There's no magic number/grind, when settled you shouldn't have to mess with it. I wouldn't determine a grind setting for a recipe based on a Kenyan alone (extracts easily), the wheels could come off when you try a Brazillian or Costa Rican (doesn't).


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## IggyK (May 13, 2017)

GingerBen said:


> Definitely learnt this over the last couple of weeks since I started putting more effort into my coffee. I didn't get a lot from a few coffees that were too hot other than a bit of bitterness and a burnt tongue.


I brew AP+FP longer now 15mintues, as I do with teas to drop the temperature to drinkable, heard its better for your health avoiding hot liquids.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> You poor thing, your coffee is too sweet?
> 
> There's no magic number/grind, when settled you shouldn't have to mess with it. I wouldn't determine a grind setting for a recipe based on a Kenyan alone (extracts easily), the wheels could come off when you try a Brazillian or Costa Rican (doesn't).


Just the last couple of mouthfuls were a bit sickly almost edging to too acidic.

Yes understand there isn't a magic number but as I'm brand new to the feldgrind it's good to have a reference point now that I know works. I fully expect to have to adjust the grind slightly for this recipe for other beans. I'll be back asking questions again at that point ;-)


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

There is nothing wrong adding milk, but just keep in mind that it will dilute the brew, so you need to make your brew stronger. Let's say you want to do a V60 and end up with 170g of coffee and then add 50g of milk to it.

If you would just want to end up with 220g of coffee without milk, you could start with 15g of ground coffee and 250g of water. To achieve the same strength after dilution by 50g of milk, you'd need to have instead 15g of ground coffee to 200g of water and also adjust your grind to be finer.

If you'd make a brew as normal with 15/250 and add the 50g of milk, the resulting brew would probably taste very thin.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

the_partisan said:


> There is nothing wrong adding milk, but just keep in mind that it will dilute the brew, so you need to make your brew stronger. Let's say you want to do a V60 and end up with 170g of coffee and then add 50g of milk to it.
> 
> If you would just want to end up with 220g of coffee without milk, you could start with 15g of ground coffee and 250g of water. To achieve the same strength after dilution by 50g of milk, you'd need to have instead 15g of ground coffee to 200g of water and also adjust your grind to be finer.
> 
> If you'd make a brew as normal with 15/250 and add the 50g of milk, the resulting brew would probably taste very thin.


By doing this your not just changing strength but also extraction yield, how it tastes, with the above example potentially under extracting.

Under extracted coffee (especially with notes of a Acidity and fruit) and milk may be really unnom and sour.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> By doing this your not just changing strength but also extraction yield, how it tastes, with the above example potentially under extracting.
> 
> Under extracted coffee (especially with notes of a Acidity and fruit) and milk may be really unnom and sour.


I did mention the need to grind finder, to keep EY similar.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Tried my current beans with milk and without milk over the last couple of days (Kenyan Chinga Pea Berry form Extract). I have to say I like it both ways to be honest. The milk takes away a touch of the acidity I am getting at the end of the cup which is tipping a bit too far over the edge for me, that last mouthful tastes totally different to the rest of the cup. Without milk I'm getting the tasting notes more clearly but perhaps edging towards slightly too bitter on the burnt raisin sort of taste. Coffee is obviously a bit older now so maybe the grind for black needs to be a touch coarser to avoid that bitter note coming through so much?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Too acidic, last mouthful being totally different, having to tweak grind every few days, suggest that your basic recipe is not consistent.

You seem to be assuming that the bitterness is due to over-extraction (hence suggestion to grind coarser), but various things cause bitterness, including stages of under-extraction & silt getting in the brew.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Too acidic, last mouthful being totally different, having to tweak grind every few days, suggest that your basic recipe is not consistent.
> 
> You seem to be assuming that the bitterness is due to over-extraction (hence suggestion to grind coarser), but various things cause bitterness, including stages of under-extraction & silt getting in the brew.


I've used the same basic recipe for this bean and since getting my feldgrind (other than a couple of brews tuning the grind in to begin with).

15 g coffee, 250g water

inverted AP add coffee and half the water, quick stir then add rest of water. After 1 minute put cap and wet filter paper on. at 1:30 invert and plunge at 2:30 for 30 seconds.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> I've used the same basic recipe for this bean and since getting my feldgrind (other than a couple of brews tuning the grind in to begin with).
> 
> 15 g coffee, 250g water
> 
> inverted AP add coffee and half the water, quick stir then add rest of water. After 1 minute put cap and wet filter paper on. at 1:30 invert and plunge at 2:30 for 30 seconds.


Why are you adding half the water, then the other half? Put it all in, in one go.

Do you plunge until the hiss, or stop when you see the bed? Plunging hard & all the way through can push more silt into the cup. I like to just remove the plunger at the start of draw down & let it start under gravity, then plunge gently until liquid disappears above bed, no hiss.

You said it yourself, your recipe (a recipe usually as a target result, not just weights & times - e.g. 'bake until golden brown' & 'not bake for 20min then give yourself a pat on the back, even if still white dough, or a brick of charcoal') makes cups that end too acidic, last mouthful is very different & bitterness creeping in. Consider that you need to change the recipe.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Why are you adding half the water, then the other half? Put it all in, in one go.
> 
> Do you plunge until the hiss, or stop when you see the bed? Plunging hard & all the way through can push more silt into the cup. I like to just remove the plunger at the start of draw down & let it start under gravity, then plunge gently until liquid disappears above bed, no hiss.
> 
> You said it yourself, your recipe (a recipe usually as a target result, not just weights & times - e.g. 'bake until golden brown' & 'not bake for 20min then give yourself a pat on the back, even if still white dough, or a brick of charcoal') makes cups that end too acidic, last mouthful is very different & bitterness creeping in. Consider that you need to change the recipe.


Because 250g doesn't fit in one go it needs to settle a bit so made sense to add half, stir then add other half. It's arbitrary going half and half I suppose but it's easy to remember and therefore repeat.

I plunge until the start of the hiss then stop so I don't compress the coffee puck with the plunger.

I have tried your method as above, it was posted in detail elsewhere. I still had the very different last mouthful problem though.

Very happy to change the recipe but to what? There are 100's of them around and I'm not sure I'm convinced that AP recipes are a one size fits all (beans) are they? Clearly though you have a lot more experience than me so I'm keen to learn from your methods or ones you have tried


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> Because 250g doesn't fit in one go it needs to settle a bit so made sense to add half, stir then add other half. It's arbitrary going half and half I suppose but it's easy to remember and therefore repeat.
> 
> I plunge until the start of the hiss then stop so I don't compress the coffee puck with the plunger.
> 
> ...


The air trapped in the AP will be enough to force out more silt, so if I hear a hiss I know it's too late.

If you brew the normal way, you can fit 250g in there. If you want to brew inverted, scale down so you use ~230g water. You want all the water to be in contact with all the coffee ASAP.

How did you correlate the grind setting against my method you tried?

Why wouldn't a brew recipe work for Aeropress, when it works for other brewers? Sure, if you're changing from a light roasted Costa Rican to an incinerated Kenyan, then you're going to need some changes, but not if you're sticking to well roasted filter beans.

How do your preference scores tally up across the different recipes you have tried?


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> The air trapped in the AP will be enough to force out more silt, so if I hear a hiss I know it's too late.
> 
> If you brew the normal way, you can fit 250g in there. If you want to brew inverted, scale down so you use ~230g water. You want all the water to be in contact with all the coffee ASAP.
> 
> ...


250g definitely fits but not in one quick pour. Just made a brew and at around 150g water in the level was almost overflowing. I can't see any way around having to let the water settle for a bit then finish the pour. It takes around 30 seconds for me to get 250g water in the chamber with a 5 second (approx) stir.

Sadly my AP is the opaque grey model so I can't see the coffee bed at the bottom so have been using the start of the hiss as my cut off point. I can stop before that of course but not consistently without being able to see what I'm doing. It was a gift a while ago before I knew what went in to using it otherwise I'd have got a clearer one.

I used the 2+6 grind on the feld as suggested in your method.

Sorry, I think I'm using 'method' and 'recipe' incorrectly to mean the same thing. My recipe as in water to coffee is always 15g:250g. I have tried others when following a method I've seen online but this seems to be the most quoted so I've stuck with it. Extract coffee use a 18:270g recipe for example which I tried given I was using their beans.

I haven't been keeping scores on them just some basic notes. The best coffee I've made recently was still the first cup from these beans and the feldgrind a few days ago which was 15:250 ground at 1+8. Since then using the same method and recipe I have had some noticeably different brews. Some more bitter, some acidic. I really don't know why.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

OK, re, grind setting - it's just that in your other thread, you said you were using a SGP.

15:250g is a brew ratio of 60g/L. 18:270 is 67g/L (more coffee to water, stronger coffee for the same extraction) but not in itself a different recipe.

You're brewing by immersion, it won't make a great deal of difference if you use 14g:230 or 13g:215g. Steep time & grind setting (within broad limits) will make the biggest difference. Personally, I don't use ratios that high, so I can't really advise.

Overflowing at 150g does not sound normal. I can usually add at least 200g in ~5sec from a regular kettle.

You remember the best cup recently, but how does that balance against the less good cups you have had in the meantime? Not every cup is going to be the best cup, the large majority should be good, with little negatives - that's why it's a good idea to keep a few notes & if the scores average out low, make a change.

I think you are looking at this too micro, in terms of too bitter, too acidic...we don't really know the exact problem (though I suspect low extractions) and if you are out in the margins with your recipe & stumbling on a good cup once in a while, constant & minute changes in grind setting aren't going to get you home & dry.

Some of the things you are doing seem destined to keep your extractions low/uneven, like the split addition of water.

Can you not see the liquid level in the AP as it drops? I have 2 Aeropresses, but I'm pretty sure I used the grey one when testing the recipe (the other has no plunger bung).


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> OK, re, grind setting - it's just that in your other thread, you said you were using a SGP.
> 
> 15:250g is a brew ratio of 60g/L. 18:270 is 67g/L (more coffee to water, stronger coffee for the same extraction) but not in itself a different recipe.
> 
> ...


That's right, I do also have a SGP which I had been using up to when the feld arrived. Since then I've only been using the feldgrind which is the grinder I'm likely to keep so I want to focus on that one for the majority of my brews - I have backed Niche so when that arrives I'll sell the SGP.

I don't understand how 60g/l and 67g/l aren't a different recipe. My understanding of the terms is clearly a bit off!

If I pour 150g straight in on top of the coffee it bubbles up a lot and will overflow if I keep going. I wait for the level to settle then slowly (but as fast as I can without spillage) add the remaining water. You get less room inverted I think as the cap adds a bit of volume to the chamber in the normal method. Perhaps that is something I need to consider?

The best cup recently was well balanced and I could taste the notes without getting any overriding flavour one way or the other., Since then I wouldn't say I've had a bad cup but the balance has swung one way or the other.

More than likely I am over analysing it yes. I do tend to do that lol. I suppose I'm looking for that wow moment when it all comes together and then being able to repeat it. I thought I'd found it with that first cup but haven't matched it since, which is my slight frustration. It's not driving me too mad though, I'm still enjoying the brews.

No, I can't see the level in mine unless I take the plunger out and let it drain as with your method. When I put the plunger back for that I can see the water line as there is such a big clear space above it. when it's full though as with a normal steep and plunge I can't. I can see the rim of the plunger though so could use that as my guide.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> I don't understand how 60g/l and 67g/l aren't a different recipe. My understanding of the terms is clearly a bit off!.


Sure this can be a bit tricky to grasp.

If I had 15g of coffee, didn't change the grind and made drip brews with 250g of water (60g/L) I'd average a certain extraction & strength. Let's say 1.28% strength & 19% of that 15g dissolved.

Now if I changed nothing but the amount of water to 240g, I'd expect the average extraction % to drop a little (maybe towards acidic end, maybe sweetness would drop off & I'd perceive this as more bitter) & the strength to rise a little. The extraction changes the flavour balance more than the strength (think intensity for strength).

But in a typical immersion brew like AP, grind setting & steep time drive extraction (flavour balance) & if I brewed 10 cups each at 60g/L, 67g/L and 55g/L, extraction (flavour balance) is unlikely to change, just the intensity. I should still be able to identify the coffee's key characteristics (sweetness, acidity, balance - what we are aiming for with the recipe) at each of these strengths, though of course I might have a preference for one over the other.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Sure this can be a bit tricky to grasp.
> 
> If I had 15g of coffee, didn't change the grind and made drip brews with 250g of water (60g/L) I'd average a certain extraction & strength. Let's say 1.28% strength & 19% of that 15g dissolved.
> 
> ...


Thanks, that's really interesting and makes sense although I'm not sure I've got it 100%.

What is being measured when referring to strength %?

For extraction you say a % of the solids dissolved in the final brew and give 19% as an example. I understand that part and have seen a number of references to this elsewhere.

I understand that the same amount of coffee with less water will give a 'stronger' brew as it will be less dilute. Extraction will also lower as there is less water for the coffee to interact with and therefore dissolve. Is that right?

Sorry, this is turning in to coffee brewing 101 which wasn't my intention.

What would be an example of a different recipe to the above 15:250?

Referring back to your previous post if you feel I could be under extracting would the first step to try and correct this (or discover if it's the case) be to steep for longer (change the method) or grind finer but use the same method?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> Thanks, that's really interesting and makes sense although I'm not sure I've got it 100%.
> 
> What is being measured when referring to strength %?
> 
> ...


Maybe a simpler way to look at it (brew ratio - same extraction but stronger/weaker) might be: a steak can be 8oz or 16oz (small = weak, big = strong) but either can be rare (under-extracted), medium (nominal), or well done (over-extracted)?

The strength of coffee is the % of the liquid that is dissolved coffee dose, so 100g of coffee at 1.33% would have 1.33g of actual coffee dissolved into it, 98.67g water.

A different recipe for 15:250g might be a longer steep...not sure that you'll need/want to go much finer than 1+8 to 1+10 on a Feldgrind. Also not letting the water cool too much before brewing can help keep temp up & hit a higher extraction. I brew with water that's just clicked off boil.

I tend to prefer my coffee around 55C when I drink it, I'm just as happy to let it sit in the brewer until then, or just a bit before.

Or, just scaling down & try a faster brew at smaller weights, allowing all water in one go (like Tim Wendelboe's).

Here's a down & dirty way to hit a brew you like, find a small, light saucer, or just something you can put over the AP whilst steeping inverted. Dose, add the water right off boil, cover & leave 10min. Uncover, sink anything that floats, skim off any scum/froth. Take a spoon & taste a few sips from the top. If it tastes amazing, flip & plunge straight away. If not cover it again & wait, try again at 5min intervals. Don't flip & plunge if it's OK and you think something will be magically fixed by the plunge. Be prepared to wait a bit.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Thanks that makes sense now.

Ill give that a try and see what happens.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

For a faster brew at smaller weights would you use the same grind size as for a longer brew with bigger weights or finer?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> For a faster brew at smaller weights would you use the same grind size as for a longer brew with bigger weights or finer?


I would stick around 1+8 to 1+10 at the finest, going finer is just likely to increase bitter flavours from silt. You might be able to go a little coarser (maybe up to 1+13 or so?), but I'd be using the same grind for short & long...not that I do particularly short steeps. You're unlikely to hit high extractions mega quick, even if you do go finer.

Another trick would be to find a very fine flour sieve/sifter & take out the finest particles (under 0.5mm) before brewing, this can reduce bitterness.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> I would stick around 1+8 to 1+10 at the finest, going finer is just likely to increase bitter flavours from silt. You might be able to go a little coarser (maybe up to 1+13 or so?), but I'd be using the same grind for short & long...not that I do particularly short steeps. You're unlikely to hit high extractions mega quick, even if you do go finer.
> 
> Another trick would be to find a very fine flour sieve/sifter & take out the finest particles (under 0.5mm) before brewing, this can reduce bitterness.


ok cool. Thanks very much. No doubt I'll be back


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Wendleboe aeropress method from his YouTube video

14:200 all in quick stir and steep for one minute total. 20-30 second press.

Drank black.

Pleasant cup but not really any sweetness and could taste the extra strength in it. Probably a 7/10 if 10/10 was the great cup I had the other day.

Whilst writing this I'm aware of a fairly bitter after taste which is unpleasant.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> Wendleboe aeropress method from his YouTube video
> 
> 14:200 all in quick stir and steep for one minute total. 20-30 second press.
> 
> ...


A fairly bitter/unpleasant aftertaste would be deal breaker for me, I'd probably not rate that as much as half way. 7/10 seems generous for a cup with unpleasant properties.

12:200g might bring the strength in line.

What then happens if you go coarser?


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:



> A fairly bitter/unpleasant aftertaste would be deal breaker for me, I'd probably not rate that as much as half way. 7/10 seems generous for a cup with unpleasant properties.
> 
> 12:200g might bring the strength in line.
> 
> What then happens if you go coarser?


to be fair I should have rescored as that taste came through. It's a 7/10 which dropped to a 5 after about 5 mins which means I wouldn't make it again. I wondered if it was a product of the increased strength.

Ill try the same method with 12:200 at the same grind 1+9 on feld and then I'll try it at 1+10 and 1+11 and see how they compare. Will be tomorrow though as I'm hoping to get some sleep this evening, even with a new born baby in the house lol


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> to be fair I should have rescored as that taste came through. It's a 7/10 which dropped to a 5 after about 5 mins which means I wouldn't make it again. I wondered if it was a product of the increased strength.
> 
> Ill try the same method with 12:200 at the same grind 1+9 on feld and then I'll try it at 1+10 and 1+11 and see how they compare. Will be tomorrow though as I'm hoping to get some sleep this evening, even with a new born baby in the house lol


Wise plan 

Each number on the dial only represents a tiny change in grind, so don't be afraid to jump a few digits to see a difference.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Wise plan
> 
> Each number on the dial only represents a tiny change in grind, so don't be afraid to jump a few digits to see a difference.


Ok thanks I'll make slightly bigger steps then, easy to back off one if go too far


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Maybe a simpler way to look at it (brew ratio - same extraction but stronger/weaker) might be: a steak can be 8oz or 16oz (small = weak, big = strong) but either can be rare (under-extracted), medium (nominal), or well done (over-extracted)?
> 
> The strength of coffee is the % of the liquid that is dissolved coffee dose, so 100g of coffee at 1.33% would have 1.33g of actual coffee dissolved into it, 98.67g water.
> 
> ...


This is really interesting stuff @MWJB - any chance of a full post sometime, on the forum or blog, on the themes raised in this thread? I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one that would find it fascinating and informative


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

salty said:


> This is really interesting stuff @MWJB - any chance of a full post sometime, on the forum or blog, on the themes raised in this thread? I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one that would find it fascinating and informative


Careful what you wish for, it's all too easy for me to drop into 'lecture' mode...ahh, that feeling when you see folks eyes glaze over, just feels like victory! 

Seriously though, if there is something you'd like fleshed out & it's not covered on my blog feel free to PM me, or start a thread on a subject.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Wendleboe method using 12:200 brew ratio. Better than the 14:200 brew for me. No overriding bitter notes and a more balanced acidity through the cup. Still a touch of flavour difference at the end but much less than before. I'd score this an 8/10 compared to my best cup so far. Can it be improved and how? Rhetorical question...sort of.

Want to try the same method again next but a slightly coarser grind and see how that effects it. Will try a finer one too for equality. This was ground at 1:9 on the feld so I'll try 1:12 and 1:6 next.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

1+12 went in the sink after a few sips - very thin tasting, bitter but in a weak, hollow sort of way

1+6 is much more intense tasting, more body but the overriding taste is bitterness and it's not a cup I'm going to finish. None of the sweetness from the 1+9 cup

So from these recent brews using the Wendleboe method it seems that 12:200 at a grind of 1+9 on the feldgrind works for me. This is a very short brew though at 1 minute total time from water in to plunge.

Amazing how much a fairly small change in grind size can totally change things.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> Amazing how much a fairly small change in grind size can totally change things.


I don't know about Aeropress, but for drip I see about +/- half a percent extraction for 2 marks change on my Feldgrind. So 6 marks would have a noticeable impact (plus increase in silt as you go finer).


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> I don't know about Aeropress, but for drip I see about +/- half a percent extraction for 2 marks change on my Feldgrind. So 6 marks would have a noticeable impact (plus increase in silt as you go finer).


Would half a percent potentially make or break a brew for you? I don't fully understand how significant that is in terms of taste.

For my next brew I'm going to repeat the 1+9 brew at 12:200 and see if it comes back to the nice cup I had earlier today. If I wanted to then make a bigger drink is it a case of scaling up to 14:230 for example and keeping the grind the same?

Also where do longer steeps come in to play in terms of adding value to the final drink? As you know my method prior to what I've been doing today was a 2:30 min steep but with split water etc. If I wanted to do a longer steep would I need to go much longer, say 15 mins + and if so would the grind remain the same as now (which seems to be working).

Told you I'd be back with more questions


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> Would half a percent potentially make or break a brew for you? I don't fully understand how significant that is in terms of taste.
> 
> For my next brew I'm going to repeat the 1+9 brew at 12:200 and see if it comes back to the nice cup I had earlier today. If I wanted to then make a bigger drink is it a case of scaling up to 14:230 for example and keeping the grind the same?
> 
> ...


I love questions 

If I brewed 10 cups with the same coffee, I'd expect that the most disparate brews would be +/-0.5% (1% span), they would still taste a little different in that range (other factors can change the taste as well as extraction, like silt). If I changed the grind so that they averaged 1.5%EY lower, I'd expect most of the cups to taste very different on average...I'd then also have an issue with some coffees regularly dropping out of my preferred range.

Sure, scaling up to 14:230g would work.

Longer steeps (I'd suggest 20min minimum), if they hit a high enough extraction, will be cleaner & sweeter. If you don't hit a high enough extraction, they can be a bit roasty, flat & bitter. Yes, try with 1+9 to start with. You don't necessarily want to grind coarser as this will impair your ability to reach the high extraction.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> I love questions
> 
> If I brewed 10 cups with the same coffee, I'd expect that the most disparate brews would be +/-0.5% (1% span), they would still taste a little different in that range (other factors can change the taste as well as extraction, like silt). If I changed the grind so that they averaged 1.5%EY lower, I'd expect most of the cups to taste very different on average...I'd then also have an issue with some coffees regularly dropping out of my preferred range.
> 
> ...


That's great, thanks. Do you see Aeropress then as either a very fast brew or something much longer like 20 mins +? Is there little point in playing around in the middle ground?

I'll try a 20 minuter (reminds me of a black adder scene) later and see what it's like. I'll scale it to 14:230 and use 1+9 on the grinder and see what happens.

Glad you like questions, I want to get a Kalita Wave next.... lol

Really do appreciate your advice, it's saved me a lot of messing around and it's been fun learning too.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Oh and the current brew at 12:200 and 1+9 is as good as the one earlier. Joy!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> That's great, thanks. Do you see Aeropress then as either a very fast brew or something much longer like 20 mins +? Is there little point in playing around in the middle ground?
> 
> I'll try a 20 minuter (reminds me of a black adder scene) later and see what it's like. I'll scale it to 14:230 and use 1+9 on the grinder and see what happens.
> 
> ...


I don't see the attraction in making coffee very quickly, unless it tastes as good as coffee that takes more time to make. 10mins might be OK for an immersion style brew, but may not suit all coffees, may still be too hot to drink...if allowing a little more time ups your strike rate, why not do that?

I want a delicious cup more than I want to break speed records.  In a café speed is more important.

My recipe you tried previously is a 5min brew time & I'm happy with that recipe (though still can be improved). I think it's on par with 20min brews taken on average & if you screw up a 5min brew you can make another one straight away, it's less disheartening than not enjoying a 20min brew. My 5min brews use a bit of flow as well as immersion, so I'm not using it like a typical Aeropress brew (immersion). Immersions are a slow way to brew if the temperature is not held constant...I just accept that & work within it, rather than trying to bend the laws of the universe.

For 20min brews, as I'm aiming for a high extraction, I brew with a slightly lower ratio, maybe 12.5-13g of coffee for 230g water?


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Makes sense. I work from home so have the luxury of time to make a coffee when I want to therefore speed brewing isn't required for me. If it produces a better cup I'll do it but it doesn't matter, quality is king.

Right I'm off to prepare a 20 minuter (13:230) at 1+9


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

The 20 minuter was fine, nothing wrong with it, nothing special. A 6.5/10. I'll do it again tomorrow and go 30 mins. Was surprised it was still a touch too hot to drink after 20 mins. 30 mins should be ideal temp wise.

New beans tomorrow...


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## IggyK (May 13, 2017)

MWJB said:


> I love questions
> 
> If I brewed 10 cups with the same coffee, I'd expect that the most disparate brews would be +/-0.5% (1% span), they would still taste a little different in that range (other factors can change the taste as well as extraction, like silt). If I changed the grind so that they averaged 1.5%EY lower, I'd expect most of the cups to taste very different on average...I'd then also have an issue with some coffees regularly dropping out of my preferred range.
> 
> ...


So would you grind finer say a 1,3 on the Hausgrind, this is what I'm doing at the and brewing for 15mintues? Interested in what the additional 5mintues could bring.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

IggyK said:


> So would you grind finer say a 1,3 on the Hausgrind, this is what I'm doing at the and brewing for 15mintues? Interested in what the additional 5mintues could bring.


Sorry, I don't know how the Hausgrind & Feldgrind settings compare, or how coarse 1.3 on the Haus is? If you're getting good results at 15min, 20min is unlikely to be worse, I'd stick to the setting that works for you...longer may still be better, as long as warm enough to enjoy.


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## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

TL/DR whole thread, so sorry if i repeat anything.

Milk is so dominant, the fats and sugars add body and sweetness, totally changing your perception of flavour in the drink. Chances are if you are used to adding milk its to replace these factors in brews from poor quality coffees or poor quality extractions.

On page one Mark mentioned that the way to combat this is to increase strength and he's spot on. Brews at the lower end of the cbc box 1.13-1.3% tds just cant stand up to milk being added, they just tastes like flat woody dull "coffee".. once you get up to 1.4-1.6% then you reach a zone where the two can compliment each other, like steamed milk and espresso.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

After playing around with Kruve for a while now, I'm convinced that even with good EY, the cup still can taste bitter and unpleasant due to undissolved solids leeching into the cup. Undissolved coffee grounds do really taste pretty terrible (Turkish coffee drinkers would know this very well..). Make sure you're stirring very gently in the beginning and in the end, and if you're using inverted method when you flip it seems like a lot of liquid can escape from the sides without going through the filter, maybe try discarding this bit as well before pressing down.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If a coffee tastes unpleasant, then it is tv a good idea EY. Its just a measure. Personal prefences can nominally fall in a broad range.

If 20 percent tastes bad., adjust, there are also many ways to get to the same EY anyway.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Brewing with these (tiny) beans for the next few days. first one was 14:230 using the Wendleboe method. Was ok, balanced flavour but nothing special. Second brew was the same but I added some milk as they say on their site it's been roasted with that in mind. Definitely a better cup, hit the flavour notes pretty well and was pretty nice. It's what I'd describe as a day to day coffee rather than special, I'd get bored of it quickly if it was all I had but it's fine. Going to try a 30 minute steep with it later to see if it brings out any sweetness as so far I haven't noticed anything.

I also took the grind a touch finer for these beans to 1+8 on the feld as my understanding was they might be a touch harder to extract than the previous Kenyan. No acidity at the end of the cup or bitterness so I think it's about right.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

30 minuter was better. Sweetness coming through but only just. Wonder if this would be better as an espresso based drink or if I'm not getting the best of it yet.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> 30 minuter was better. Sweetness coming through but only just. Wonder if this would be better as an espresso based drink or if I'm not getting the best of it yet.


Brazil natural, tend to be lower end of extraction. Can you go any longer before it gets too cool, or your patience runs out?

If it's an effort to extract as brewed, may not be any easier as espresso. That said, espresso roasts can be a bit flat as brewed.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Brazil natural, tend to be lower end of extraction. Can you go any longer before it gets too cool, or your patience runs out?
> 
> If it's an effort to extract as brewed, may not be any easier as espresso. That said, espresso roasts can be a bit flat as brewed.


Yes can definitely wait longer. It was actually just too hot to gulp so another 5 maybe 10 minutes might be possible. Could always wrap the AP in foil to keep the heat in better.

Nothing is easy for me with espresso lol, I may revisit before I decide to sell my Gaggia but I'm not convinced yet


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Careful what you wish for, it's all too easy for me to drop into 'lecture' mode...ahh, that feeling when you see folks eyes glaze over, just feels like victory!
> 
> Seriously though, if there is something you'd like fleshed out & it's not covered on my blog feel free to PM me, or start a thread on a subject.


You may just regret that offer...

Rather than start a new thread I'll stay here for now as what I'm going to ask links with earlier posts - but if you think it belongs elsewhere feel free to move the response into a dedicated thread, if that makes sense.

So, I drink all my coffee - AP, V60 and FP - black but when I'm out I like a flat white. I've just bought a Bellman Stovetop Steamer to do the occasional flat white at home and to learn some milk steaming skills. It's great, I'm enjoying the learning curve and the milk is getting better although any latte art is still a long way off.

I started off using a moka pot for the coffee base but found that the coffee element of the drink was overwhelmed by the milk. So instead I've been adapting what I normally do for AP and FP.

My go-to AP is the Wendelboe style 1 minute 15/220 inverted, which I've adapted to 15/60 - feld 2+5

My go-to FP is the Hoffman style 4min steep, skim, then further 5 mins no plunge 15/250, which i've adapted to 15/100 - feld 2+5

Tasting the resulting brews pre-milk is ok - intense coffee and much more flavour than I'd want in a black coffee but I assume will be ok when I add milk. With milk added it's ok but flavour is pretty drowned out by the milk.

Now all of this may seem obvious - maybe I just need to increase the coffee/reduce the water. Or am I reducing strength and extraction by doing what I'm doing? Should I grind finer and brew longer? Is there another way - apart from buying an espresso machine? Am I committing coffee sins?

Supplementary point - although my milk steaming is coming on leaps and bounds, latte art is a long way off. Is espresso in some way intrinsic to art or should it be possible whatever the base? I watched Scott Rao making sort of latte art with soapy water so I'm guessing the latter - but just in case...

Thanks

Tim


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

for the sake of clarity , what does " much more flavour than you want in black coffee " mean ? Strength ? Acidity ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

salty said:


> You may just regret that offer...
> 
> My go-to AP is the Wendelboe style 1 minute 15/220 inverted, which I've adapted to 15/60 - feld 2+5
> 
> ...


An espresso used as the base for your flat white could be twice as strong as what you are making in the Moka pot, AP & FP. Yes, I suspect that you are using so much coffee to so little water that you are not able to get a high extraction as the coffee will rob the water of heat.

2+5 is also quite coarse on my grinder for what you are trying to achieve. I'd brew for 40min in a steel insulated press for a 1mug FP at that grind.

It's going to be really hard to hit espresso type strength from brewed...but maybe try adding less milk.

Could try adding 20g of water to the AP (at 2+5), swirl & press it out gently every 30s in stages, stopping just when you see the dry bed? A total experiment, but maybe worth a try? So - add 20g water, swirl, don't press as nothing will come out first go, after 30s add another 20g swirl then press a tiny bit to dry bed (don't keep pressing to hiss), remove plunger add a another 20g, repeat until you have 80 or 100g added & see what you get?

Or, have you thought about Turkish (sustained heat will make it easier to extract), then filter through the AP?

Really if you want espresso based drinks, you need to make the espresso. I can't comment on milk steaming/late art, I don't have milk in the house.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

@salty getting the right consistency for latte art ( milk that is ) helps too foamy and it wont pour , too fast and your fcked., then its about pouring and practising , the more you do it , the better you will be .


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

Thanks @MWJB & @Mrboots2u for thoughts and advice - I'll take onboard and keep experimenting & practising...


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Nothing to do with milk but this seems the best place to ask this question.

I have these new beans and am struggling to get a good brew out of them using the various methods we've been discussing in this thread. Brews are either a bit sour at the end of the cup (again!?) so maybe under extracted? Or they are roasty and bitter.

Any thoughts on what to do? Still using aeropress. Waiting for my kalita to arrive so I can try something new.









Also struggling a bit with a natural brazilian bean. Not sour just roasty


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sour, or roasty for the Tweega? If they were roasty, it would be hard to escape that. I think both faults you are describing are under-extraction. Between sourness & balance/sweetness is often a phase of carbony/bitter flavour which can be mistaken for roastiness & because it's bitter people jump to the conclusion that they have over-extracted & drop back into sourness, when they should be pushing through this phase into a sweeter one (longer steep).

"Various methods" doesn't tell us much. If the methods all end up with the same result, then they're not really that various. Look at them a road maps that always take you to the same place & essentially the same thing. It must be possible to shift the level of extraction using all of them, chopping & changing recipes may be preventing you from making methodical & effective changes.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Sour, or roasty for the Tweega? If they were roasty, it would be hard to escape that. I think both faults you are describing are under-extraction. Between sourness & balance/sweetness is often a phase of carbony/bitter flavour which can be mistaken for roastiness & because it's bitter people jump to the conclusion that they have over-extracted & drop back into sourness, when they should be pushing through this phase into a sweeter one (longer steep).
> 
> "Various methods" doesn't tell us much. If the methods all end up with the same result, then they're not really that various. Look at them a road maps that always take you to the same place & essentially the same thing. It must be possible to shift the level of extraction using all of them, chopping & changing recipes may be preventing you from making methodical & effective changes.


Bit sour for the Tweega which from our previous dialogue I took to be under extracted.

My methods have been the Wendleboe method previously discussed but using 12:220 brew ratio, a 14:230 ratio with the same short steep method and a 12.5:230 long steep (35 mins). The best of which was the 35 minute steep but I don't really want to be doing that every time, even though I did make a foil cosy for the AP which I'm quite proud of









Just had a cup of the Brazillian at 12.5:220 and it was actually much better than before. Dropping the ratio back a bit and using less water volume so it's easier to get in with a quick pour definitely makes a difference from the 15:250 brews I was making before.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I can understand that planning 30min ahead is not very attractive a proposition, but the way I look at it is I make my own coffee because I want to enjoy the taste. Making that coffee more quickly is only an advantage if I enjoy the taste as much. If it takes so much time to hit my preference, then so be it, 30min passes quite quickly if you have things to do & the brew takes no more input/time spent doing things, than a 2min brew.

E.g. Today's work brew - 1L double walled steel French press, 09:00 add boiling water to coffee (4min boil, 30sec pour), drink cup that my colleague made earlier, do some work, 10:00-11:00 drink tasty French press coffee.

If I want a 'quick' cup (~4min excl. grinding & kettle boil), with the same consistency, then I drip brew.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> I can understand that planning 30min ahead is not very attractive a proposition, but the way I look at it is I make my own coffee because I want to enjoy the taste. Making that coffee more quickly is only an advantage if I enjoy the taste as much. If it takes so much time to hit my preference, then so be it, 30min passes quite quickly if you have things to do & the brew takes no more input/time spent doing things, than a 2min brew.
> 
> E.g. Today's work brew - 1L double walled steel French press, 09:00 add boiling water to coffee (4min boil, 30sec pour), drink cup that my colleague made earlier, do some work, 10:00-11:00 drink tasty French press coffee.
> 
> If I want a 'quick' cup (~4min excl. grinding & kettle boil), with the same consistency, then I drip brew.


This is true and I do have the ability to do long brews at work so maybe just need to give it a touch more thought in advance.


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