# Deteriorating quality of microfoam



## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Hi, i need some advice!

When I first got my machine in June, it only took a short while to begin achieving decent quality microfoam, due to lots of watching videos and reading tips beforehand. Before long i was getting done reasonable attempts at latte art to match. Good texture, sweet and delicious, see the picture:










However, since about October, my microfoam has gradually gotten worse and worse. Its no longer a nice consistency. It doesn't integrate as well. The taste is still ok, but the texture is wrong. Also, whilst it may initially look like good microfoam from the top of the pitcher, with that glossy meringue effect, once pouring it becomes apparent that the microfoam is not the same texture throughout and once the drink is poured, bubbles begin to appear very quickly. This is shown in the second picture - no latte art here as it wasn't worth trying, but those bubbles appeared in seconds.










Now i can't think of anything in particular that's changed in my technique. I've re-researched how to make good microfoam and started from scratch, to see if I've just forgotten, but whichever method i use, i get "ok" at best.

Anyone got any ideas? Steam pressure seems fine by the way.

Thanks for any help


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Have you changed the milk you use?

Also your steam wand or some other part of your machine may be destabilizing your foam.

Recommend a deep clean.


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Your machine has a separate boiler for steam. Check the pressure settings to ensure they are within recommended tolerances.

Also remove the steam wand and give it a good soak in machine cleaner. This will remove any build up of residue.

After reassembling, try Cravendale milk for consistency and see if the problem still exists.


----------



## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks guys.

I'll be honest, I'm still not sure what the pressure gauge on the front is exactly measuring :s if i let out steam, the the water heating light comes on and takes pressure back up to 1.2 bars, the same as its always been. I'll take the wand off for a clean. Still trying to investigate whether i could manage descaling the machine myself.

Will also try cravendale







i haven't changed the milk i use. Both tesco milk and whatever my milkman delivers deliver the same results. times like this i wish i had a machine with lots of user experiences and how to's!


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Apparently organic whole milk is the best for micro foam but I have suceeded with milk man milk also.


----------



## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Try a bit of practice with the water and a drop of washing up liquid to see if that gets you back in the groove. Sometimes when I lose the sweet spot I'll go back to this method.

Sent from my Touchpad using Tapatalk


----------



## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks lookseehear. I'll give it a go. Though i must say that, despite previously getting it right with milk, i was unable to ever get that practice method to work haha. Good advice though, so I'll give it a go


----------



## marktatton (Jan 5, 2012)

I'll be interested to hear what comes of this one.


----------



## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

So far I've tried cravendale which improved results slightly. A couple of times, even the pour has been ok, but then those unsightly bubbles appear. Generally, the milk is flat and lacking texture.

I haven't had an opportunity to tinker yet, because my shifts are a pain. Might try taking it apart in the next few Weeks. The steam still seems plentiful though.

Might try and see if fracino do a single hole steam tip too.


----------



## Tristan (Dec 29, 2011)

Have to say I am experiencing a simmilar dilemma at the moment, I think a good clean up of my machine will help, One day I finally perfected microfoaming with my machine, the next, kaput! But i did notice the brand of milk has made a difference!


----------



## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

I wonder if the fact that all the cows are now inside for the winter is affecting this. Surely when cows are outside feeding on grass they will produce a better milk than when they are inside being fed with whatever the farmer chooses.

I'm not a farmer so I'm just guessing.

Ian


----------



## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

I think it's definitely something to do with the cows. But at work, if we run out of milk, be buy bottles from the shop. I have no issues whatsoever. Then when we go back to the usual pouches we have, when steaming cappuccino milk, it all looks great then all of a sudden as it nears the 120 mark (With steam arm plunged), a disgusting horrible very soapy looking top appears in the jug and gets worse when steaming is stopped, it doesn't swirl out easy either, most times not at all. Skimmed milk is fine however. Any ideas on how to stop this?

At home we tend to use Tesco own standard blue top milk, microfoam is consistent.


----------



## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

I think its to do with the cows. I find tesco semi skimmed isn't great at the moment. Its all confusing me. I'm hoping its going to sort itself out come spring.


----------



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Actually this phenomena of bubbles appearing even when the microfoam is faultless was explained to me the other day to be the result of the milk reacting with the acidic coffee and actually pretty commonplace, I belive this could be correct, I find I get it sometimes with very oily beans(not dark but just high natural oil content). Try some different beans with the same milk and see what happens?

I wouldn't worry too much unless it is affecting your enjoyment of the coffee.


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I had this today with semi-skimmed from the milk man.

Got lovely microfoam, made a poor attempt at latte art (it resembled a rosette for about 2 seconds during the pour), purged steam wand, wiped wand and looked back at my creation to see the lovely liquidy/air emulsion had already started destabilising and large bubbles had appeared.

Short of using a surfactant in my coffee (lol) will higher fat milk help with this?

EDIT: I've bought some organic full fat milk to play with tomorrow


----------



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

I usually get my very best results with organic full cream milk, even if it doesn't entirely stop the bubbles it is just sooo much nicer all round! I find that you can get away with stretching it a bit further and still have nice fluid microfoam which equates obviously to a thicker head of foam but without the pourability issues.


----------



## marbeaux (Oct 2, 2010)

It's possible that the milk is being steamed too hot causing the fat to separate out. With the fat separated you won't achieve a decent long lasting micro foam.

I made that mistake only a few days ago by microwaving my milk for 30 seconds rather than my normal time of 27 seconds..


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

marbeaux said:


> It's possible that the milk is being steamed too hot causing the fat to separate out. With the fat separated you won't achieve a decent long lasting micro foam.
> 
> I made that mistake only a few days ago by microwaving my milk for 30 seconds rather than my normal time of 27 seconds..


I was literally just thinking the same thing. I use a tiny 340ml frothing jug and often find full steam power to be too much and before I know it I'm past the temperature for stretching.

I also think my stage after stretching when I'm heating/whirlpooling isn't long enough. I guess a thermometer may be required.

Tried full fat milk today and thought it imparted too much 'milk' flavour and detracted from the 'coffee' flavour.

Anyone have any tips for steaming just a small amount of milk?


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Don't use full steam power?


----------



## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

Thermometers are superb, although it's probably considered more of a "skill" to steam without one, I prefer to use one, simply because I have to on a day to day basis, and you can easily determine at which is the best temperature to plunge, and if you've burnt it.

For steaming just a small amount of milk, I'd just say thermometer and the small jug. I've never had issues myself. Espro Toroid 12oz is my tiny jug.







On the original topic - Milk is behaving again! Woo!


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> Don't use full steam power?


Honestly think I hadn't thought that that would be a good idea?


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

It's surprising what can be done with technique rather than brute force. Eg the Classic doesn't have much steam power but with practise can make good microfoam.


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Steam power on my PIDed Classic compared to the steam power on my Baby Class is like night and day.

Classic has much steam power. I'll try using less but I think a thermometer is essential for me at this stage.

Will any frothing thermometer fit in my tiny 340ml jug?


----------



## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

I've got a very short thermometer, but I'm unsure of the brand, sorry







I got it from Bella Barista though - While it's relatively nice and compact, the dial movement isn't smooth, it jumps and there's a bit of a delay sometimes. But I think it's alright, a bit pricey though.


----------



## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

Anyone used these things for milk? http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=JAG9524&cat=88


----------



## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

I've used the espresso gear version on one of my pitchers. They're handy while you're getting used to it, but i don't use thermometers any more, just my hand.

I think Glenn sells temp tags


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I dont even use the temptag anymore as Ive learned the 'feel' technique- pretty simple...works for my machine anyway (steam boiler @ 1.2 bar - single hole tip)

Ice cold jug and milk (both in freezer with is -17 for 8 minutes)

Full power , lower jug until you hear ''ch ch ch''

Latte/flat white - stretch only until the jug isnt cold anymore

Cappa/machiatto - faintest hint of heat at bottom of jug.

Then raise jug until no ''ch ch ch'' creating a vortex/milk folding over on itself

When jug too hot to handle turn off steam


----------



## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

Eww, last time I curdled milk was when we added orange syrup to it down at my local. I've stopped using Cravendale since I started making coffee, quite simply because we get through much more milk now. We only bought it because it didn't sour so quickly.

I just steamed some Morrisons own whole milk, surprisingly the massive bubbles rolled away beautifully for once. Three cheers for lighter and longer days!


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> I dont even use the temptag anymore as Ive learned the 'feel' technique- pretty simple...works for my machine anyway (steam boiler @ 1.2 bar - single hole tip)
> 
> Ice cold jug and milk (both in freezer with is -17 for 8 minutes)
> 
> ...


Great tip about milk + jug in freezer.

Gives you more time for stretching before temperature is too high.


----------



## YouriV (Dec 4, 2008)

Monkey_Devil said:


> Hi, i need some advice!
> 
> When I first got my machine in June, it only took a short while to begin achieving decent quality microfoam, due to lots of watching videos and reading tips beforehand. Before long i was getting done reasonable attempts at latte art to match. Good texture, sweet and delicious, see the picture:
> 
> ...


Hi,

Did this happen after you had changed your coffee by any chance?

Thanks,

Youri


----------



## mike 100 (Jul 15, 2010)

Are you using the same milk as you started with, brand/fat content etc?

If you are it may be another case of winter feed of cows which some people think upsets the quality of milk in the winter months as the cows are not grazing as much, this was very noticable with Cravendale a while ago, I switched to another brand which seemsd to help.

Have a search on here I think there was a thread that went something like "Milk fizzing" may be an answer in there for you.


----------



## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Youri, nah i always use hasbean









I've also been informed by a Batista friend that I'm probably not resting my beans long enough and that the acidity is destroying the texture of the milk. I'd always only allowed about 2-3 days resting time, which apparently is fine for brewed coffee, but too young for espresso. Especially in milk drinks. So I'm going to try resting my beans. Apparently between 10 and 20 days old is best


----------



## YouriV (Dec 4, 2008)

If your foam falls apart in the jug after steaming then look at your milk. But if it happens only in the cup then it will be the coffee. This happens mostly with lighter roast and fresh coffee, but more so with lighter roast.

Try eliminating the factors one by one and you will figure it out in the end







Looking at your picture though I would say it is the coffee. (Nothing 'wrong' with the coffee by the way but it is the reason I think)


----------



## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks youri, i mainly use hasbean which means a lot of my coffee is a lighter roast, so that may offer some expansion







its usually the case that the milk separates in the mug rather than the jug.


----------



## YouriV (Dec 4, 2008)

Makes sense then. We also get it with our lighter roast coffees such as Kenyans. I really think that is all it is.


----------



## Fracino (May 16, 2012)

One of the biggest problems when steaming small quantities of milk is the amount of steam hitting the milk at once. We supply single and double hole steam tips that help achieve perfect microfoam in small jugs.

If you need any further information, please contact our spares department on







0121 328 57 57 or







[email protected]


----------



## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Fracino said:


> One of the biggest problems when steaming small quantities of milk is the amount of steam hitting the milk at once. We supply single and double hole steam tips that help achieve perfect microfoam in small jugs.
> 
> If you need any further information, please contact our spares department on
> 
> ...


Hi there,

I may well do that. I've tried blocking a hole with a tooth pick and got better results. I need to order a new filter and shower screen soon anyway, so will order a single hole tip with it









Thanks!


----------

