# Mazzer robur should I?



## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

, really thinking about getting one as they only work about £100 more exspensive than a kony but are

what do people who have them, think off them? are they as hard to have in the house as they look?

really close to pressing the button but not quite sure I'm man enough


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If you don't you'll think about it forever


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## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

Is there anyone on the forum who has one and would like to give Orangertange a test drive ? Trying one out could be a decider but you should also take in consideration how kitchen friendly it is in your own kitchen


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Ha I know, still thinking about the one that got away for 880 with a spare burr set

but it's a lot to spend on a grinder that may just be too big


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Thing is got a pretty good price on a new one,, but need to act fast


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

How much did you find the new one?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If it's keenly priced buy it, try it, and if it's too big you can sell it on without a loss


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If you can live with the retention and you have the space then they are great grinders

I got shots every day from the cafe i go to from one

Ive used it on a number of occasions after hours


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

i actually prefered the kony day to day, seemed to need less adjustments in the grind setting, but the robur is one of my favourite grinders for in the cup perfomance.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Orangertange said:


> Ha I know, still thinking about the one that got away for 880 with a spare burr set
> 
> but it's a lot to spend on a grinder that may just be too big


Got a Major that's same dimensions except for being three inches less in height. Doesn't look that big. You can always put a mini hopper on which will drop the height. If the price is a steal - go for it.


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Grrr really want a kony, but price is £1434 on this one and it's in black, just not sure if I'd be able to sell it on as easy as a kony, due to it's size


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Robur E?


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Hey chap hope your having/ had a good holiday? did you get a chance to speak to Jenns about a kony import?


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Robur E?


Yep - Black


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Like CC said hard to beat in the cup for a conventional grinder...

If you can live with the retention etc


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

That's the thing, think I can get a kony for £1310, and more home friendly so think I may let it slide


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

I nearly bought a Robur but couldn't live with the retention so I settled for a dosered major. Get what you want and listen to no one.


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Yeah even though it's cheap, it's still dam expensive

anyway it's on the bay if anyone wants it


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## MellowCat (Jun 7, 2013)

walk into a cafe that has one - or even better, two side by side - then you'll know how damn huge they are, and then you can picture that on your kitchen counter - all for one or two shots in the morning - and you'll know you were temporarily insane to consider it ;-)


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I am testing a couple of Ceado grinders at the moment, the E92 with the Mazzer Mini Hopper is surprisingly small, 71mm conical burrs and slowest rpm rate of all grinders. Would be far better in a kitchen than many other grinders, if size is a consideration.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dave, what is the rpm and declared power output please?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

900 watts and 250 rpm


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

My Mrs thinks my Mazzer Mini is big. I saw a Robur in a cafe recently and even I was shocked at the size. If I brought one home she'd think it was an invasion by Daleks. Shortly followed by her trying to "exterminate" me!


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

It's a no compromise grinder. When you want to concentrate on your best espresso it's the tool you need (dosered though I believe). But... some days you just want a cup of joe in which case you use your other grinder. Yes folks - DFK's two grinder model is completely rational after all.

Oh. To answer your original question: 'Yes. I did. No buyers remorse.'


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

The hoppers make the big Mazzers look a lot bigger than they are - whip them off, mini hopper on and you're rocking


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Cheers for input guys, size isn't really a issue but there is a limit, got a major in the kitchen at the moment, with a 320g hopper, and isn't too bad, just looks like a sj on steroids, think a robur may just be a step too far, think I may bite the bullet and go for a new kony, less retention less electric, and a less money, (all be it a little) and from what I've been reading not much difference in the cup


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## Terranova (Feb 15, 2014)

Obnic said:


> It's a no compromise grinder.


I find it a big compromise to get the thing working flawless only by a massive weight of beans inside the hopper.You won´t get close to the extraction yield when single dosing vs 1kg beans weight inside the hopper. Even for the exact same flow rates the espresso will extract less.The Kony is not much different though.If you don´t mind having 1kg + of beans in your hopper, you will be fine of course.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

A Robur is to a mini what a lion is to a pussycat. Grrr! I couldn't fit one in my kitchen even without the hopper. Plus I renovated my entire kitchen for the price of one!


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Terranova said:


> I find it a big compromise to get the thing working flawless only by a massive weight of beans inside the hopper.You won´t get close to the extraction yield when single dosing vs 1kg beans weight inside the hopper. Even for the exact same flow rates the espresso will extract less.The Kony is not much different though.If you don´t mind having 1kg + of beans in your hopper, you will be fine of course.


really you need a whole kg?

thought the robur/ Kony had augers that feed the beans in, does this not help? won't be using for single dose but will probably be keeping about 250gs in hopper, same as I currently do with my major, seems keep everything consistent, haven't got a clue about yield though


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## Terranova (Feb 15, 2014)

Orangertange said:


> thought the robur/ Kony had augers that feed the beans in, does this not help?


It also does not mean that your coffee does not taste good when "single dosing" or having less weight in the hopper.

Just mentioning that spending big money still does not guarantee you to get the best out of the beans.

Do you know this video of Nordic Barista (Ben Kaminsky) ?

Just have a look for some minutes at 29:55min


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

you can however use a modified hopper with say 100 gram of coffee in it with a 1 kg weight on top.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Yes you should.


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Cheers will take a look, just a thought (probably showing my engineering ignorance) doesn't the platic cone in the hopper act to displace the weight?


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> you can however use a modified hopper with say 100 gram of coffee in it with a 1 kg weight on top.


What's that mod Chap?


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Think he just means a smaller one than standard robur with a weight on top


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Also dose this effect all conicals, what does a say a hg 1 do different?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Orangertange said:


> Also dose this effect all conicals, what does a say a hg 1 do different?


hg1 is single dose machine


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Yeah I appreciate this eg less grind path, but how does it achieve better "yield" without weight of Beans?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I'm confused by your question. The robur works best with a weight of beans to push through a dose consistently , stop pop corning. Samish weight same ish grind consistency.

Hg1 you feed beans in manually its spins slower ( power of your hand) it doesn't need weight of beans to consistnely push the next dose through...it might suffer from a little pop corning I've not used one enough to comment.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I'm not sure it does achieve a Better "yield " as you put it . how consistnet the grind particle size is effects the quality if brew. I've not refracted a hg1 espresso v a robur I think they would be similar ish...


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> I'm confused by your question. The robur works best with a weight of beans to push through a dose consistently , stop pop corning. Samish weight same ish grind consistency.
> 
> Hg1 you feed beans in manually its spins slower ( power of your hand) it doesn't need weight of beans to consistnely push the next dose through...it might suffer from a little pop corning I've not used one enough to comment.


It's does suffer a little bit of popcorning. I've seen pics of peoples with wooden lids to help prevent it. Bit like Dfk's wooden thingy on his versalab.


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Cheers boots, just as teranova said and the vid shows, you get better yield with beans above, guess if it's popcorning issue alone, ei beans benefit from being compacted when they move through the burrs,

Does this mean your actually better off not single dosing with any grinder if you want the most out of beans?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Interesting about popcorning, the Ceado E92 doesn't really popcorn at all and has a little propeller type thing at the top to keep the beans "screwed down". I can use 109-200g in the mazzer mini hopper....but I also tried out a very small hopper with lid that basically allows me to fill the grinder throat and put perhaps another 80-100g in (I must measure it). The home made hopper is the top part of an old whittard tea infuser with a flush fitting lid. Needs nowhere near the weight of 1kg of beans. Also the small (home made) hopper allows me to get it under standard Kitchen cupboards with plenty of room to spare!

I suspect you could single dose, but I still need to see the impact on grind quality, but as long as the throat of the grinder is full, grind speed and quality seems good.....I am torn between which model to buy TBH, head says E37S, heart says E92.


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Cheers propeller thing sounds interesting, just having a look online see if I can find something hefty to sit in the hopper


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> Interesting about popcorning, the Ceado E92 doesn't really popcorn at all and has a little propeller type thing at the top to keep the beans "screwed down". I can use 109-200g in the mazzer mini hopper....but I also tried out a very small hopper with lid that basically allows me to fill the grinder throat and put perhaps another 80-100g in (I must measure it). The home made hopper is the top part of an old whittard tea infuser with a flush fitting lid. Needs nowhere near the weight of 1kg of beans. Also the small (home made) hopper allows me to get it under standard Kitchen cupboards with plenty of room to spare!
> 
> I suspect you could single dose, but I still need to see the impact on grind quality, but as long as the throat of the grinder is full, grind speed and quality seems good.....I am torn between which model to buy TBH, head says E37S, heart says E92.


What's the price on these £2200?

http://www.machina-espresso.co.uk/products/ceado-e92-on-demand-burr-grinder-silver-or-black

Way More than a k10 fresh ?

more than a robur e ?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> What's the price on these £2200?
> 
> http://www.machina-espresso.co.uk/products/ceado-e92-on-demand-burr-grinder-silver-or-black
> 
> ...


Well I'm testing them to see if BB want to carry one/both in their range, or neither. I have decided I want one of them, probably the E92, I was going to buy the E37S, but the heart....

As for the price, I have advised them on what I believe they should retail at...because I think £2200 is taking the piss personally.....so I think pricing will be more competitive. The little extras for the UK grinders would be the supply of a Mazzer Mini hopper and lid...because the Ceado one is massive. As for whether they carry it or not...that's up to BB. I will do the review, they can decide. I personally like both grinders quite a lot, but they do have pros and cons and there are improvements Ceado could make.

P.S. I think the E92 grinder compares better with a Robur, than a K10 fresh TBH....but it's a lot smaller than both of them.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok cheers

it needs to move in price a fair bit when the new line compaks come out ...

£2200 is cafe price only .....

seems you can get the e92 in the states for $1700..

lets see how much they move the uk price


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## Terranova (Feb 15, 2014)

Orangertange said:


> Yeah I appreciate this eg less grind path, but how does it achieve better "yield" without weight of Beans?


It doesn´t achieve a better extraction yield, despite the fact that the built quality is less than average in this price class it would increase the extraction with a full load above instead of nothing, no matter how slow you turn it.

It needs less adjusting, yea and do you know why ? Because of it's wider range in particle size.

I think the constructor likes to think that it centers the shaft by itself during grinding.

This does not mean that any shot out of the HG One does not taste good, but it is far away from being the optimum.

- no hurt feelings.


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Terranova said:


> It doesn´t achieve a better extraction yield, despite the fact that the built quality is less than average in this price class it would increase the extraction with a full load above instead of nothing, no matter how slow you turn it.
> 
> It needs less adjusting, yea and do you know why ? Because of it's wider range in particle size.
> 
> ...


so brings me to the m3 (although not possible) would it not benefit from weight above? , as I understand the beens jump about inside it fairly, or do the conicals help?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Can someone explain the Ceado propeller thing to me....


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## Terranova (Feb 15, 2014)

Orangertange said:


> so brings me to the m3 (although not possible) would it not benefit from weight above? , as I understand the beens jump about inside it fairly, or do the conicals help?


There is no chance for the beans to jump out, once they went through the conical pre breaking section. The hybrid burr set combination wasn´t invented by John Bicht, but by DRM. After pre breaking the inner conical has a propellar function. David Schomer was using only Cimbali Alinox grinders (68 hybrid) in his coffee bars, they work pretty good for single dosing and don´t cost that much.


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Thanks for all the info teranova, learning a lot from this thread,

one last question, to mazzer owners or x, does anybody know what the actual retention on a robur or kony e is? Not talking about all the stuff that sits and stays inside, just what you need to purge before grinding fresh again?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

D_Evans said:


> Can someone explain the Ceado propeller thing to me....


It sits a little above the burr set and acts in a similar way on the beans as a propeller does on air (air screw), so it add a screw pressure downwards onto the beans. This makes it so there is no difference between a full and empty hopper. only when the bean mass is below the influence of the "propeller" does it start to matter. you can see it in the photo below.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Thanks Dave, makes sense!


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Are they not augers like on the robur?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Orangertange said:


> Are they not augers like on the robur?


I don't think so...the robur has nothing like that just above the burr set, the ones I've seen just have a nut...unless you have a photo that shows otherwise?


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Haha defiantly a robur, apparently the new ones and the konys carry them, something I've discovered whilst do whilst doing my extensive research


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Orangertange said:


> Haha defiantly a robur, apparently the new ones and the konys carry them, something I've discovered whilst do whilst doing my extensive research


Do you have a photo, or a link to one?


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## Terranova (Feb 15, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> Do you have a photo, or a link to one?


https://www.google.de/search?q=mazzer+robur+auger&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=vccAVI2uBuWI4gSUi4HQDQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=924


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Ah, yes, well the last time I saw one they didn't have those...mind you it was a long time ago, more than 5 years. A sensible addition for sure and it should mean they don't need much beans in the hopper.

P.S. I also just realised that the other photo was a Robur, didn't look to hard as I though it was my image re-quoted


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I wonder if it would be possible to retrofit something along the lines of the Ceado one as it looks to have a smaller cross section as if so it would cure problems for single dosing on many grinders.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Charliej said:


> I wonder if it would be possible to retrofit something along the lines of the Ceado one as it looks to have a smaller cross section as if so it would cure problems for single dosing on many grinders.


A more interesting question is....why don't all conical grinders have it?

I am firmly of the opinion that whilst espresso machine technology has moved on apace.....grinders have been very slow to change.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

almost snail like progress on grinders!!!!!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Roburs have had that auger on them for at least 8 years now, but they only put them on the conical grinders, the flat burr do not have them


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The caedo e92 is not that small either, it is 16 inches to the collar without a hopper so at least 22 iches tall with a mazzer micro hopper, it is however a lot smaller than a robur or ek43!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> The caedo e92 is not that small either, it is 16 inches to the collar without a hopper so at least 22 iches tall with a mazzer micro hopper, it is however a lot smaller than a robur or ek43!


What's pissing me off is the 9-12g I have to grind through it before I make a shot....obviously not for back to back grinding, but if it's been left 30-60m. I looked in the chamber of the E92 and although the design means less retention than many other conicals, it's still nowhere near as low as I have seen some owners claiming on American forums. As for height, with a mazzer mini hopper, it's slightly less tall than a K8 fresh (with small hopper), but the depth is hugely less, so it sits in front of standard kitchen cupboards with ease and the door can still be opened. it's the most kitchen friendly big conical I have ever seen...

I was considering buying the E92 over the E37S, but if I'm smart I think the E37S makes the more sensible purchase and it's still very, very good in the cup. I can't get away from the feeling that these big conicals are not really suitable for home use (well at least for me) because of the waste, the faff of grinding out from 10-20g (depending on make of grinder) before you grind for your shot, and the hassle of dialling in when changing bean ...So if people want a conical, perhaps the HG1 makes more sense than I thought...the only thing I worry about is the grind quality in an HG1, inconsistent speed, weight of beans, but as I have never used one....who knows.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I think the key to using a big conical in the home is knowing your grinder. Most of them retain coffee however some can be modded to very low retention (like the k10 barista model) I personally run two grinders and i calibrate one from the other to reduce waste when dialling in, however retention is the elephant in the room with the big conicals, which the end user HAS to able to live with.

There is absolutely no denying that the in the cup results are better with the conicals, almost every big conical i have ever owned has knocked the spots off its same brand flat burr sibling, with exception to the ek43 and compak r120.

So the key choice that anyone has to make with these grinders is can the user put up with retention and purging. If they can they will see the benefits in the cup, which for me (and not for all) is all that matters, hence why another big conical is winging its way to me to pair with the r120.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> There is absolutely no denying that the in the cup results are better with the conicals, almost every big conical i have ever owned has knocked the spots off its same brand flat burr sibling, with exception to the ek43 and compak r120.


E37S is pretty good when compared to the E92....I wouldn't say the E92 Conical knocks spots of the E37S, it's a little different, but I'm not sure if it justifies the extra cost or wasted coffee. This might mean the E92 is not a very good conical (which I doubt)...of the E37S is a very good flat burr grinder (which it seems to be). How did you find the E92 vs the E37S, or those Ceado grinders vs other similar grinders?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I think the success of the caedos dave will be down to how much they come in at, I had a play on the 37 but not on the 92, I agree it is indeed a great flat burr grinder, not my cup of tea on the asthetics side, but i am not restricted on height so this may well be a great top end solution with people with limited space.

My experience with flat vs conical has been with mazzer and compak and brasilia grinders, where the flavour spectrum of the conical variant grinders was much more than the flat burr variants, however the price difference between the flat and conicals is pretty significant (including long term running costs, like cost of burrs and retention) and will influence what people decide upon.


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> I think the key to using a big conical in the home is knowing your grinder. Most of them retain coffee however some can be modded to very low retention (like the k10 barista model) I personally run two grinders and i calibrate one from the other to reduce waste when dialling in, however is the elephant in the room with the big conicals, which the end user HAS to able to live with.
> 
> There is absolutely no denying that the in the cup results are better with the conicals, almost every big conical i have ever owned has knocked the spots off its same brand flat burr sibling, with exception to the ek43 and compak r120.
> 
> So the key choice that anyone has to make with these grinders is can the user put up with retention and purging. If they can they will see the benefits in the cup, which for me (and not for all) is all that matters, hence why another big conical is winging its way to me to pair with the r120.


that's what I was thinking doing, using my major for day to day / calibrator and cranking the conical at weekends

still wondering if anyone's got any idea off "purge to fresh" in grams, on say a robur e, Kony e, k10 fresh, and nino (watching a another thread keenly)


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

For some reason i have 20g-ish in my head but couldn't provide a source. The nino is far less than the others though


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Well I have to say further tests have me firmly decided on buying the Ceado E37S flat burr grinder.

For information the E92 is 51.5cm tall with the Mazzer small hopper and 39cm tall to the top of the collar.

I have found out why I prefer the shots from the E37S, after doing further extensive tests today with exactly the same bean and grinding through (purging) different amounts, opening grinders weighing residues etc... I will be writing a review, so will put all the results for anyone who wants to read them (assuming it's published). Suffice to say the design of the burr chamber in all big conicals is very similar and the Ceado is one of the smaller volume ones! Once I put my heart aside, took my head out of my backside and trusted taste, smell and sight, I was finally able to see clearly why one should be chosen over the other.

So forgive my previous comments about having to run 9-12g through, it's incorrect, partly based on me wanting it to be true.


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> If they can they will see the benefits in the cup, which for me (and not for all) is all that matters, hence why another big conical is winging its way to me to pair with the r120.


Which one is your new conical Dave?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

13 characters...


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## onluxtex (Nov 18, 2015)

I was using the Ceado E92. The retention of it is much more than the one of the Robour.


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## Grahamg (Oct 24, 2013)

I've got an LM Vulcano - it has Kony burrs, presumably identical levels of retention, I tend to bin about 12g of coffee first thing and accept that the first shot won't be magical but I'm happy enough to have it as my first of the day (I reckon if you were really fussy you'd have to purge 20+g), the subsequent shots are great. I think the reason I'm happy living with that kind of high retention is that I don't have a hyper-sensitive palette, and stick to med/dark roasts 1kg at a time so can live with the faff/difficulty dialing in that the retention creates. I've not yet taken time to explore ways of reducing retention, although I remember coffeechap mentioning an idea for a 3d print item to reduce the chamber size behind the static screen or something along those lines.


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