# Water, water...



## soxley (Nov 7, 2016)

How do folks deal with water minerals and scale avoidance in higher-end dual-boiler machines? I understand these aren't really designed for frequent end-user descaling (e.g. Profitec 700).

I've heard bottled water mentioned (Volvic?) as well as filters (Brita, Bestmax?) and I guess in-line filters for plumbed in machines?

What's the consensus?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

No single bottled water meets SCA(E) requirement for boilers, but a 1:1 mix of Volvic & Waitrose Essential Stretton Hills (NOT the 5L W.E. Princes Gate) does, as does 1 Aqua Panna:1-4 Waitrose Essential Stretton Hills.

As a 1 brand/bottle, low hassle option Volvic is pretty common & won't cause a scaling issue.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

To back up Mark - I have used Volvic for nearly 4 years with no sign of scale in my Alex Duetto MkIV (Dual Boiler)


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## soxley (Nov 7, 2016)

Thanks gents. I'll start with Volvic and do some more research from there.

I've since found a number of other related forum threads to read up on too.


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## soxley (Nov 7, 2016)

Mark, I just followed your blog link. Wow! Thank you for sharing so much detail, lots of bedtime reading for me.


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## Skipper1988 (Jan 11, 2017)

I live in a hard war area so will probably have to look at doing something with the water I use.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Skipper1988 said:


> I live in a hard war area so will probably have to look at doing something with the water I use.


Bottled water. Tesco, Waitrose Essentials get good reviews. I use Volvic for my espresso machine.

The best cafes in Norwich are using RO for espresso and a mix of bottled water for filter, as the tap water is not useable.


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## Hibbsy (Jan 8, 2017)

This may be a stupid question but is filtered water not recommended then ? I only have a basic espresso machine but I have only ever used filtered water and the machine is still going strong or does this only apply to high end machines ?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Hibbsy said:


> This may be a stupid question but is filtered water not recommended then ? I only have a basic espresso machine but I have only ever used filtered water and the machine is still going strong or does this only apply to high end machines ?


That depends on the water you are using. Filtration is one way of altering the waters mineral content. If it doesn't need altering then you may not need to filter it. You may choose to filter for other reasons but if you use bottled water with the current mineral balance then you do not need to filter it.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Volvic works for me. I also use a Volvic -waitrose essentials 50-50 mix


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## Hibbsy (Jan 8, 2017)

Xpenno said:


> That depends on the water you are using. Filtration is one way of altering the waters mineral content. If it doesn't need altering then you may not need to filter it. You may choose to filter for other reasons but if you use bottled water with the current mineral balance then you do not need to filter it.


Thanks for reply, its just filtered tap water. Its what I have used when doing home brew so hoped it will be OK for my machine over a long time.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Hibbsy said:


> Thanks for reply, its just filtered tap water. Its what I have used when doing home brew so hoped it will be OK for my machine over a long time.


Tap water, like bottled water, is greatly different depending on where it is sourced & what is being filtered out. Your local water authority should be able to give you details of its composition.


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## Omid (Oct 16, 2021)

What do you think of using tesco or volvic water along with those in tank resin water filters such as BWT or Lelit ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tesco do various waters (of which Volvic is probably the best), which one do you mean?

Why would you need to BWT filter Volvic?


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## Omid (Oct 16, 2021)

MWJB said:


> Tesco do various waters (of which Volvic is probably the best), which one do you mean?
> 
> Why would you need to BWT filter Volvic?


 I meant Tesco Ashbeck along with sort of water filter such as in tank one make the water more pure (Using bottles water such as Ashbeck or Volvic is not sufficient to stop the scaling process ,that's my understanding from what I read , also I know pure acidic water cause corrosion and impact the coffee taste too , that's why I'm asking here to avoid scale or corrosion ) .


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Omid said:


> I meant Tesco Ashbeck along with sort of water filter such as in tank one make the water more pure (Using bottles water such as Ashbeck or Volvic is not sufficient to stop the scaling process ,that's my understanding from what I read , also I know pure acidic water cause corrosion and impact the coffee taste too , that's why I'm asking here to avoid scale or corrosion ) .


 You wouldn't really want to make Ashbeck more pure, it's already lower in minerals & pH than water recommended for boilers.

Volvic is generally OK, reducing hardness further might need to be carefully done.

I'd get a KH/alkalinity drop kit, test your water, then test the filtered water and see what you have. About 3d German is what you're aiming for.


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## Omid (Oct 16, 2021)

MWJB said:


> You wouldn't really want to make Ashbeck more pure, it's already lower in minerals & pH than water recommended for boilers.
> 
> Volvic is generally OK, reducing hardness further might need to be carefully done.
> 
> I'd get a KH/alkalinity drop kit, test your water, then test the filtered water and see what you have. About 3d German is what you're aiming for.


 My tab water is very hard ( London ). So if you say Ashbeck is safe for espresso boilers and dosent cause scale then I'll only use Ashbeck .


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Omid said:


> My tab water is very hard ( London ). So if you say Ashbeck is safe for espresso boilers and dosent cause scale then I'll only use Ashbeck .


 I didn't say that, or anything close to it.


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## Omid (Oct 16, 2021)

So whats the solution? Some members here use Ashbeck or Volvic or mixture of them . Some members use distilled water or RO . For me RO is an expensive method as I don't have the budget for that and distilled is a long process . I'm trying to find reasonable possible way to minimise the risk of scaling within my current budget and I'm sort of confused as there are tones of information here ( some members are saying bottled water are safe some are saying only disttiled and RO are safe ) .


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

If you want to use bottled water, use Volvic, or Waitrose Lockhills.

Or, as you say mix Ashbeck with Volvic (1:1).

Bottled water, like tap water is incredibly varied, how you receive your water has no bearing on it's suitability.

I'd still suggest measuring your tap water with a KH/alkalinity drop kit first, just so you know what you're dealing with.

Distilled/DI/Zerowater is not safe without remineralisation (but this is easy to do with kitchen scales).

Some RO systems re-mineralise as well.

Tap, bottled, RO can all work, but you need to have a goal in mind (~3 degrees German alkalinity). A BWT Mg+ jug could also work, depending on what you start with.

If you don't want to measure/test, go with the bottled suggestions in this post.


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## Alpesh (Dec 12, 2020)

MWJB said:


> If you want to use bottled water, use Volvic, or Waitrose Lockhills.
> 
> Or, as you say mix Ashbeck with Volvic (1:1).
> 
> ...


 Out of interest what are the benefits of mixing Volvic and Ashbeck?

I have been using Volvic exclusively so was wondering if I would benefit from mixing 1:1.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Alpesh said:


> Out of interest what are the benefits of mixing Volvic and Ashbeck?
> 
> I have been using Volvic exclusively so was wondering if I would benefit from mixing 1:1.


 Volvic is a little high in alkalinity, Ashbeck a little low. Mixing them gives you an alkalinity level in the ideal range.


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## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

I'm surprised there is no company making bottled water specifically for coffee machines. seems much easier than making it yourself and I for one would buy it.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ZwiGGy said:


> I'm surprised there is no company making bottled water specifically for coffee machines. seems much easier than making it yourself and I for one would buy it.


 Waitrose Lockhills is in the ideal zone. Of course, if they sold it as "coffee machine water" instead of just water, they'd only sell a fraction of what they currently do.


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## ZwiGGy (Jun 21, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Waitrose Lockhills is in the ideal zone. Of course, if they sold it as "coffee machine water" instead of just water, they'd only sell a fraction of what they currently do.


 is it even better than making your own water with no hardness and optimum minerals / pH? I understood even waitrose water contained SOME hardness which wasn't ideal, and so you would still need to descale say every 2 years which is not ideal.

or is my understanding not correct?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ZwiGGy said:


> is it even better than making your own water with no hardness and optimum minerals / pH? I understood even waitrose water contained SOME hardness which wasn't ideal, and so you would still need to descale say every 2 years which is not ideal.
> 
> or is my understanding not correct?


 Nobody is saying that water without hardness is desirable for coffee machines. Naturally soft water does not have optimum pH, usually it's acidic.

In all the studies I have seen some hardness (50mg/L as CaCO3 and upwards) is seen as desirable.


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