# Help - sour espressos from Sage Barista Express



## djkidman

Hi,

I wonder if you knowledgeable souls can help me troubleshoot my Sage Barista Express. I bought it in March 2016 from Lakeland. I purchase good quality coffee beans, such as Monmouth espresso, Taylor Street, and at present Square Mile Coffee Roasters (presently using Red Brick blend). I tend to use the beans 5 to 14 days after roasting.

I tend to get sour tasting espressos although sometimes they are bitter. Occasionally I get a good tasting espresso but it is rare.

So - the settings. I upped the temperature to 94 degrees C from 93. I measure 18g of espresso, freshly ground from the grinder built in. I use scales to get a 36g dose of espresso. The grind setting is usually between 6 and 9 depending on the bean and its age.

2 issues - the pressure gauge tends to be towards the top end each time - indicating (I believe) close to over extraction. But if I let this go lower (eg by making the grind coarser or reducing the dose), the coffee comes out at a faster rate than seems right, and is more likely to taste sour. I am gauging the flow rate based on timing the shot (aiming for between 26 and 32 seconds from.pressing the pour button) and what I observed on a home espresso course with Taylor Street Baristas (who couldn't help with my problem as they weren't familiar with my machine).

So how much attention should I pay to this gauge? Do you place any reliance on it?

Secondly, timing the shot. From the point I press the pour button it always takes about 8 to 10 seconds before the pressure gauge goes to the pre-infusion range and coffee starts to pour. This is regardless of the grind setting or dose. This doesn't seem right as the manual says it should be (I think) 3 to 7 seconds for the pour to start. But what is the machine doing in this time?

I time the shot from pressing the button up until I press it again to stop it (at around 32g, with the last 4g or so dripping out after the pressure has stopped). With the sort of settings I have described above this takes around 30 seconds. But this includes the initial 8 to 10 seconds where no coffee is pouring out.

My inclination is to make the grind finer but this puts the pressure gauge right at the top end, indicating over extraction, and making the pour time 35 to 40 seconds or more (albeit including the initial 8 to 10 seconds where no coffee comes out).

Any thoughts? The machine has been descaled, I recently ran a cleaning cycle with the tablet, and the water filter was recently changed.

Sorry for such a lengthy post, but I figure the more info the better!

Kind regards

David


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## Dylan

If your shot is sour then you want to extract more, so you are right to think you need to go a bit finer to do this.

High pressure during extraction could be an indicator of over extraction, but it is not a clear indicator. If your shot is sour then don't worry about what the gauge is saying.

Is there any way to adjust the high point of pressure with the BE? More 'classically' designed machines have an OPV (over pressure valve) which allows you to adjust the pressure.

Basically follow this rule above anything else.

Shot is sour= grind finer/extract for longer

Shot is bitter= grind coarser extract less

The 1:2 ratio over 25 seconds is a starting point only. If you need to extract for 40 (probably unlikely) seconds to get the right taste then so be it, keep adjusting time and grind until you have it right.


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## djkidman

Thanks. I increased the fineness by 1 (i.e. went from 6 to 5 on the dial) and it still tasted a little sour. I increased it by 1 again and it was better. But when I tried it at that setting for another shot it would barely come out - I got about 4g of espresso in 30 seconds!

I find it strange as I don't see how you could get a bitter espresso from the machine - since once you start getting into the over-extracting territory, it doesn't pour.

Any more tips from members, including those who are able to get good shots from their Barista Express, would be greatly appreciated.

In the meantime, on the weekend, I think I will just play around with grind settings at different values (e.g. 10, 8, 6) and compare tastes. Maybe I am confusing sour with bitter. It does trouble me that I am perceiving sourness when the pressure gauge is at the very high end and tells me I am overextracting, and the manual tells me to aim broadly for the middle of the pressure gauge!


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## Mrboots2u

A high pressure gauge in itself doesn't mean you are over extracting . If you are pulling 20g of espresso form a 20 g dose them more than likely if I am being honest you are nominally under extracting and just making a really strong espresso - the strength is what could be fooling you into bitter / spur also .

Taste and extraction ( ie nomonally under and over extracted ) is not always linear in its relationship , so under and over extracted don t always equate to sour and bitter . Sometimes a shot can be a mix of both on the palate

Perhaps add a little water to a shot after to dilute the strength and pick up flavours .

When referring to stuff post. Dose in weight out and time . It will really help


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## johnealey

Hi @djkidman

You have not mentioned yet how the puck is being tamped or pressed down and with what as this may also affect your pour rate:

fine grind with a gorilla tamp (huge pressure being applied to the grounds in the basket) could well slow down the pour rate of water throught the puck as the coffee grounds are by default now smaller and once compressed will present more of an "obstacle" for the water to pass through. A gentler almost no pressure levelling off of the grounds will be the opposite and you could find your happy medium somewhere between as tamping is another variable to consider.

The above is hugely simplified but hopefully will give you something else to look into.

Hope of help

John


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## Mrboots2u

Just try and keep the tamp the same ... with that grinder/machine i wouldnt recommend a " fine grind tamp light " mantra .

Dont over exert yourself and keep it the same each time


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## djkidman

Hi Mrboots2u, I grind 18g and aim for 36g of espresso out i.e. a 1:2 ratio. Typically, at grind setting of around 5 on the machine it takes around 30 seconds, but this includes about 10 seconds of time from when I press the '2 cup' button to when the coffee starts to pour. If I go any finer with the grind, the espresso tends not to come out.

Re your and John's comments about tamp, I don't think I am tamping too heavily but I will try a shot with a slightly lighter tamp to see what effect it has. I use the tamp that came with the machine. There is often a slight circular mark in the centre of the puck after extraction. I don't use the Razor to level off as I got to a point where it wasn't taking anything off and I felt I was interfering with the puck after tamping.

I mentioned above that I would try to reduce the fineness and then taste it. That said, it will then bring the extraction time down to 20 to 25 seconds including about 10 seconds of pre-infusion; I say this from experience of grind settings at around 8 or 9.

Another option perhaps is to reduce dose to say 16.5g or 17g and keep the fineness at around 4 or 5 and see what effect that has. But now I am getting into the realms of playing with so many variables, and getting through a lot of expensive coffee beans!

Thank you sincerely for your time in considering this. Something is not quite right but I am not sure what!


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## jlarkin

I don't want to start throwing you off but it could be also worth considering using slightly less coffee in the basket. The amount of coffee has a big effect on slowing it down, I don't know what size the basket is on the BE but trying 17g may allow you to grind a little finer etc. without completely stalling it...Just a thought.

p.s. Definitely don't use the razor.


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## MWJB

djkidman said:


> Thanks. I increased the fineness by 1 (i.e. went from 6 to 5 on the dial) and it still tasted a little sour. I increased it by 1 again and it was better. But when I tried it at that setting for another shot it would barely come out - I got about 4g of espresso in 30 seconds!
> 
> I find it strange as I don't see how you could get a bitter espresso from the machine - since once you start getting into the over-extracting territory, it doesn't pour.


If you're aiming for 36g out, why did you stop at 4g? Maybe there is scope to go a shade coarser, but sticking to 30sec might be pulling the rug from under your feet.

If nothing/only a dribble comes out, your coffee is under-extracted, not over-extracted.


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## Dylan

You mentioned that you pulled two shots at a fine setting. One was 'better' and one barely came through.

There are two explanations for this.

1. You are not weighing in and the grinder is producing different weights of coffee. The second shot had more coffee in the basket and caused the shot to be so slow.

2. The distribution of the coffee in the basket was different. Possibly the first shot channeled so was quicker, or the second shot has a concentration of fines that blocked the water flow.

The solution to 1 is simple, weigh every shot, especially when troubleshooting. The solution to 2 is a bit of a faff but again when troubleshooting worth doing: mix up the grinds in your basket to even them out, can be done with a toothpick. This has been coined as 'wdt' on home barista.


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## djkidman

Hi jlarkin, the manual for the Barista Express says that the range of the '2 cup' (single wall) basket is 15g to 18g. I went for 18g with the Square Mile Red Brick as the recipe on their website said to use 18g (although they have just changed to a different blend so the recipe online has changed to 19g). But of course, that is based on the commercial machine they use, not a Sage Barista Express! I think that I will try with 17g (or perhaps 16.5g, so that I am operating 'in the middle' of the basket range), keeping the fineness at 5, and see how that affects the taste.

MWJB, I stopped at 4g at 30 seconds as barely anything was coming out, and the flow rate was not really increasing. I imagine it would have taken about 3 minutes or more at that rate to get to 36g or thereabouts. I guess I could have let it run and then tasted it, out of curiousity if nothing else!

Dylan, I weigh in, and out, each time. I use 0.05g scales, and weigh in between 17.9g and 18g each time. But you could be right about the distribution of the coffee in the basket. A bit of a faff to even them out as you say, but perhaps worth trying.

There's no substitute for tweaking settings and blitzing through the coffee beans in these relatively early days, is there?!


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## MWJB

djkidman said:


> There's no substitute for tweaking settings and blitzing through the coffee beans in these relatively early days, is there?!


So, you've been pulling shots at 1:2 and they have been sour, or when you grind finer, they choke.

Set the grind where they cease to choke. Pull the shot longer to extract more, try 1:3 to start with, you can pull it back maybe once you get a better flavour balance.

So to recap, grinder set to 5, dose 16.5, 49.5g out. Record time. What do you get?


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## Dylan

Going through this process with expensive beans is certainly disheartening. You can buy a kg from a place like rave which would make it less expensive, but you obviously have to get it right for each bean.

As the grinder is stepped the grind you need could well fall in between two grind settings. Up or down dosing in the basket can achieve this; like a coarser grind, less coffee in the basket will give you a faster extraction.


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## Mrboots2u

Learning to dial in different coffees and roasts is all part of the " fun "

One last suggestion , are you single dosing ? or are using a hopper of beans . if the latter then are you purging a little coffee inbetween each grind change to take account for " old grind " even if you are single dosing there may be some residual left over .

MWJB's suggestions are normally on the ball , give it a go .

Good luck - we have all been there at some point


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## djkidman

Thanks again to those who have responded. I do enjoy the process, except when I just want to make a quick coffee before going to work, and I have to endure a sour espresso or nothing at all.









MWJB - I will try what you suggest. I wish I was working from home today to try it out, but I will have to wait until tonight/tomorrow morning.

Dylan - thanks for the tip about adjusting dosing in the basket.

Mrboots 2u - I am using a hopper of beans, and have not been purging anything in between shots. Thanks for the encouragement.

I'll post again on the weekend when I have had a chance to try MWJB's 1:3 recipe and have compared the taste of different grind sizes, at a 16.5g to 17g basket size, to see if I am confusing sour with bitter. Enjoy your excellent coffees in the meantime.


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## MWJB

djkidman said:


> I'll post again on the weekend when I have had a chance to try MWJB's 1:3 recipe and have compared the taste of different grind sizes, at a 16.5g to 17g basket size, to see if I am confusing sour with bitter. Enjoy your excellent coffees in the meantime.


Good luck, but don't focus on bitter vs sour, they're both defects and we don't want either. Focus on sweetness & balance.


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## NJD1977

Definitely try pulling a longer shot 45-50g and see how that tastes. I often find sourness at shots under 1:2 but they're much more forgiving at 1:3. As a rule I always aim for 18g:40g and go from there but there are definitely some beans that I pull to 50g.


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## djkidman

So, MWJB and NJD1977, thanks for suggesting a 1:3 ratio. I made 2 espressos this morning and there was a degree of improvement.

First coffee - I ran the grinder to flush out 1 or 2g of coffee grounds from yesterday (thanks Mrboots2u). I left the fineness at '5' but reduced dose to 17g. I flushed through the grouphead. I tamped firmly but not ridiculously so. The puck looked nice and even with no obvious cracks.

It took about 10 seconds from pressing the '2 cup' button for coffee to flow. When it started to do so the coffee came in a slow drip at first, with the pressure gauge just at the top of the 'extraction zone', but very slightly dropped as the pour continued, and the flow rate increased slightly as the pour went on (but not by too much).

It took about 37 seconds to reach about 48g, at which point I pressed the button to stop it.

The taste? Definitely an improvement on yesterday. A more rounded flavour and more palatable. But - there was a bit of a 'tang' to it that was not ideal, albeit not the substantial sourness from yesterday. I couldn't really detect any real sweetness to it. I should say that Square Mile's tasting notes describe the Red Brick blend as melon, honey and blackberry so it may be that they are relatively lightly roasted (albeit it is an espresso blend) and a degree of acidity is inevitable? (they have since changed their blend, by the way, as it is seasonal).

I add about 3oz of whole milk to make a flat white type coffee, and I must say that with that 'masking', it tasted nice.

The second coffee - I reduced the dose to 16.8g, and kept everything else constant (including the tamping, I hope). Oddly, the pressure gauge went above the 'extraction zone' and the espresso barely came out at first, but the flow rate slightly increased and the pressure gauge slightly came down. It took about 11 or 12 seconds for the coffee to start flowing, and about 47 seconds in total to get to about 48g, at which point I pressed stop.

The taste was definitely not as nice as the first. More of that tang, verging on what I would describe as sour but perhaps I am jumping to that conclusion when in fact it is just 'unbalanced'.

In both cases the spent puck, while not exactly dry, did not appear particularly wet on top and there was no indent in the middle (as there was yesterday at 18g).

Anyway, I'll bring this lengthy post to a close. The 1:3 ratio (or thereabouts) has improved the end product so thank you. Next steps? I will stick with that ratio and perhaps try a 16.5g dose, and if that improves the taste, perhaps I should reduce the fineness (i.e. make coarser) by 1 notch and see how that affects it? May seem counterintuitive if I was complaining about sourness, but it will be interesting to see if it leads to a more balanced flavour.

I welcome your thoughts and wise guidance!


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## MWJB

djkidman said:


> Anyway, I'll bring this lengthy post to a close. The 1:3 ratio (or thereabouts) has improved the end product so thank you. Next steps? I will stick with that ratio and perhaps try a 16.5g dose, and if that improves the taste, perhaps I should reduce the fineness (i.e. make coarser) by 1 notch and see how that affects it? May seem counterintuitive if I was complaining about sourness, but it will be interesting to see if it leads to a more balanced flavour.
> 
> I welcome your thoughts and wise guidance!


Your next steps are totally logical. You might even try going nearer the minimum dose for the basket?

I wouldn't go coarser however, that may reduce extraction (we're trying to eke it up).

The second shot taking longer, but more tangy, could be unevenness/lower extraction, try tamping with just enough force, it's fairly hard to tamp with less than 5kg pressure.

Wet/dry pucks are usually just a sign of how much coffee you have used, larger doses look drier, smaller doses look wetter based on the amount of water hoovered off the puck at the end of the shot. It doesn't mean much by itself.

If the strength is acceptable, you might even try stretching the brew ratio (1:3.5?) until it loses intensity?


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## djkidman

Thanks MWJB. Appreciating that it is just one factor in many, and that it is perhaps not a linear relationship, would it be correct to think that reducing the dose can increase the % extraction from the coffee grounds that you have; relative to an increased dose (and all other factors being equal)?

In other words, to extract say 50g of espresso from 16g of coffee grounds, you would be 'digging deeper' into those grounds and extracting more, compared to say 18g of coffee grounds? I appreciate it is not necessarily that simple, but I am just trying to get the concept clear in my head.


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## Dylan

Just a note to be aware that as the beans reduce in the hopper and stand a chance of popcorning this can dramatically change the grind and thus the extraction.

Not something that it sounds like is happening but worth being aware of.


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## djkidman

Just reduced the dose to 16g, and ran a 1:3 extraction at 31 seconds. Lovely shot, nice and balanced, not sour. It felt like it had a little more body to it, too. Very pleased! A shame I am nearing the end of the batch of beans!


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## Dylan

What you have learned in this thread should see you through many more however! It's easy to forget that almost all advice given can vary hugely with bean and machine, glad you got your coffee where you want it though!


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## Jason1wood

Loved reading through this, just reminds me of all the help I received when starting out.

Nice to recap also. @djkidman keep at it, your process is bang on and glad to see someone get a hang of changing one variable at a time.

The coffeeforumsUK guys certainly know their stuff. I tip my hat to you guys


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## MWJB

djkidman said:


> Thanks MWJB. Appreciating that it is just one factor in many, and that it is perhaps not a linear relationship, would it be correct to think that reducing the dose can increase the % extraction from the coffee grounds that you have; relative to an increased dose (and all other factors being equal)?
> 
> In other words, to extract say 50g of espresso from 16g of coffee grounds, you would be 'digging deeper' into those grounds and extracting more, compared to say 18g of coffee grounds? I appreciate it is not necessarily that simple, but I am just trying to get the concept clear in my head.


18:50g is 1:2.78 whereas 16:50g is 1:3.13, so relative to the dose you have put more water through the puck (another 5.5g or so in this case, compared to 16g & 1:2.78), yes this should help extract more.

But also, you may now have a slightly shallower puck, which may also have an effect in raising extraction. If you overfill the basket, you will likely slow the shot (more resistance), but also pull down extraction (more towards sour).

It's perhaps not quite that simple, but if your prep is good, your dose & grind appropriate, then brew ratio is the big driver of extraction (longer ratio = more extraction) for a given coffee. That aspect is fairly mechanical.


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## djkidman

Thanks everyone, truly. I think the complexity comes not from the fact that there are a number of variables, but that changing a variable often has more than one consequence.

Still, no going back! Looking forward to trying a different bean soon.


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## Mach

Dear djkidman,

I am pleased to see - if pleased is the word - that you are going through exactly the same perplexities as well as routines as I am with this machine. It is astonishing how incremental changes cause huge discrepancies in quality or function i.e. one degree of fineness adjustment can cause a choke, or the same bean, the same amount, the same tamp can run nicely one day and require adjustments by MANY degrees of grind/amount the next and this when the ambient temperature is little changed and the beans just as fresh. The pressure valve is odd. The pre-infusion takes just as long for me as with you and now some coffee actually starts to come out after those approx ten seconds while the needle is still in that range. I recently had an engineer here - and my machine was purchased in late November - to replace the solenoid valve. He suspected this at once. It is apparently a common problem, even in new machines, which is a little disturbing. I was having more than the usual anomalous issues and absolutely no luck with any bean, any grind, any amount and it is now 'working'. I too was doing everything - descale, portafilter 'clean me' operation, filter changes. And I rarely use the milk wand or hot water spout (except for Americano now and again) and there is often a drip down into and under the storage drawer. This is still occurring, by the way. The engineer detected no leaking issue, so i think this is a quirk of the machine. The very honest and pleasant engineer also recommended a descale AND filter change in London every two months. I shall do that. I daresay for £500 odd, this is what we are going to face up to in a home machine. The engineer has the Dual Boiler at home, not the Oracle. He says the DB (at twice the price) is actually no more sophisticated than the Barista Express we have, but far better for the milky-drink fans.


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## Mach

Thank you for this - I try to put just enough in the hopper for the day for fear of the beans altering in makeup. Is this correct?


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## Mach

djk,

May I ask do you reset the programme for length of shot each time or just do a manual operation? And 1:3 on 16g meaning 16g dose for 48g in the cup??


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## Mach

Thank you MWJB - this is all so helpful. I have been having very similar problems as djkidman.


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## Dylan

If you find your espresso varying from shot to shot (i.e. one pulls ok but the next is too fast) then it could well be the amount of beans in the hopper, if this isn't happening dont worry about it too much. If it is then find some type of weight for the beans that are in there (like a bean bag) or fill the hopper and empty it after your done.


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## ronsil

I keep a couple of small bean bags shaped around the centre. They work well & very necessary as I only ever put just enough beans for immediate use.


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## djkidman

Hi Mach, thanks for your posts and sorry for the delay in responding. Interesting that we have been having similar issues, although I must say that having reduced the dose from 18g to around 16g-16.5g, and tending to pull at around 1:2.5 / 1:3, the shots have tasted a lot better and are generally consistent and well balanced in taste.

In terms of the program length and whether I operate it manually: I have not changed the default water dose for '2 cup'. I press it once (ie put it into automatic mode), but have scales under the cup. I leave it to run (which includes its 10 seconds pre-infusion) and then I manually press the 2 cup button again to stop the pour when I get to the quantity of espresso I want. So as an example I would measure 16g of ground coffee, and press the '2 cup' button to stop it when there is about 36g to 40g of espresso poured into the cup (depending on the extraction ratio I am seeking). Another 4g or so will drip into the cup after pressing the 2 cup button to stop the pour.

It usually takes about 30 seconds to pour (including the 10 seconds pre-infusion time, which I include in the timing because my understanding is that pre-infusion increases the flow rate once the pour starts) with the pressure gauge very close to the top of the 'ideal extraction zone' or whatever it is called.

I hope this all makes sense - feel free to ask if it does not, as it is good to try and help out a fellow Barista Express owner!


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## Phil bcn

Super interesting thread. I'm also struggling with my barista express but not nearly as advanced as you guys. Will let you know how I get on over the next few trials.

My main issue has been actually getting consistency in the tamp at the same grind settings. I find that if you use the built in grinder and don't do anything more, then you never get pressure on the gauge and extraction is always sub 15s no matter how hard you tamp.

On the other hand, if I grind in small amounts and tap the portafilter between each grind then I can get good pressure and decent extraction times (I'm still below 25 s).

Anyway I'll get some more concrete details in the next post and let you know if I have any success. Only had the machine a few days


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## Mrboots2u

@Phil bcn what coffee are you using

And dose ( to 0.1g ) and espresso made to 1g


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## MediumRoastSteam

Phil bcn said:


> My main issue has been actually getting consistency in the tamp at the same grind settings. I find that if you use the built in grinder and don't do anything more, then you never get pressure on the gauge and extraction is always sub 15s no matter how hard you tamp.
> 
> On the other hand, if I grind in small amounts and tap the portafilter between each grind then I can get good pressure and decent extraction times (I'm still below 25 s).


What boots2u says, and also pay attention to distribution. If the grinds are not distributed somehow evenly in the basket prior to tamping, then the coffee will get compacted differently in different places as it has different densities in the basket, thus leading into "channeling" as the water will simply find the path of least resistance. What you describe when you grind a little, tap and grind some more, you are effectively the distributing those grinds better in the basket, so the water hits an uniform puck offering the same resistance throughout.

You may want to look into Distribution and WDT (Weiss Distribution Technique), which consists in stirring the grinds in the portafilter prior to tamping.

Good luck!


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## Bibbleq

Been a lurker for a few months since I bought my BE.

Registered to say a big thanks to all the folk adding advise and helping out here. I thought it was just me going nuts not being able to "properly taste" the espresso I was making as no matter what I did it was always kind of sour. Now I've got some new starting points and inspiration to give it another crack.

Curiously I was also using Red Brick to try and dial myself in and then moved to Rave Fudge blend to see if I got a different taste.

djkidman - What scales did you end up getting that fitted under the portafilter okay?


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## Bibbleq

Bibbleq said:


> djkidman - What scales did you end up getting that fitted under the portafilter okay?


(Plumped for these in the end - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B016WM5HOI/ seem to work pretty well...)


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## Mach

I often have this problem with the SBE. I finally get a nice shot and try it again at same settings the next day (and same bean) and it does not work at all - chokes.


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## Mach

My apologies djk,

I am not very good at negotiating the site and finding out how and when one receives a reply!

I have received a whole new replacement machine and am just starting up again. I am still having curious results, i.e. on a setting that works fine with a bean (I am on Atkinsons Prototype now), in this case 5 on the grind and 3pm on the amount for a double that then goes haywire next morning. Then I played with grinds between 4 and 6 and increased the amount to 4pm and had under-extraction according to pressure gauge. In the afternoon, I was back to being more or less successful at 5 on the grind and 4pm amount and I jiggle the portafilter as the grounds descend so that they fall as evenly as possible before tamping. It is possible I am being a little inconsistent with my tamp pressure, I don't know, but it shd not account for such wild variations in resulting shots . . On advice from Sarah at Hilltop Brews, I am going to just use the shot buttons on manual and go by my Hario scale for timing and volume. I must say I am not ALWAYS in the mood for going through three shots to get a good 'un . .


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## emc2

Hi,

I have been facing similar problems. I will try increasing the brew ratio to 1:3. I was trying to pull a double ristretto with a dose of 16 g and an output of 23 g. The shots were not very good though. They were sour and had some bitter notes. Any suggestion would be much appreciated











djkidman said:


> Hi Mach, thanks for your posts and sorry for the delay in responding. Interesting that we have been having similar issues, although I must say that having reduced the dose from 18g to around 16g-16.5g, and tending to pull at around 1:2.5 / 1:3, the shots have tasted a lot better and are generally consistent and well balanced in taste.
> 
> In terms of the program length and whether I operate it manually: I have not changed the default water dose for '2 cup'. I press it once (ie put it into automatic mode), but have scales under the cup. I leave it to run (which includes its 10 seconds pre-infusion) and then I manually press the 2 cup button again to stop the pour when I get to the quantity of espresso I want. So as an example I would measure 16g of ground coffee, and press the '2 cup' button to stop it when there is about 36g to 40g of espresso poured into the cup (depending on the extraction ratio I am seeking). Another 4g or so will drip into the cup after pressing the 2 cup button to stop the pour.
> 
> It usually takes about 30 seconds to pour (including the 10 seconds pre-infusion time, which I include in the timing because my understanding is that pre-infusion increases the flow rate once the pour starts) with the pressure gauge very close to the top of the 'ideal extraction zone' or whatever it is called.
> 
> I hope this all makes sense - feel free to ask if it does not, as it is good to try and help out a fellow Barista Express owner!


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## urbanbumpkin

emc2 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been facing similar problems. I will try increasing the brew ratio to 1:3. I was trying to pull a double ristretto with a dose of 16 g and an output of 23 g. The shots were not very good though. They were sour and had some bitter notes. Any suggestion would be much appreciated


If it tastes sour then it's probably under extracting. If you're dosing 16g, try letting the shot run for longer (say 32g) and see if it taste better.

If it still taste bad it could be a distribution issue.


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## Mrboots2u

emc2 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been facing similar problems. I will try increasing the brew ratio to 1:3. I was trying to pull a double ristretto with a dose of 16 g and an output of 23 g. The shots were not very good though. They were sour and had some bitter notes. Any suggestion would be much appreciated


16g> 23G is almost certainly nominally under extracting ...


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## emc2

Thank you for your suggestions. I tried running the shot longer (16g in, 38g out, 30 seconds, 93 degrees) by grinding coarser and went easy on the tamping. The taste was much better but slightly bitter. I guess I need to grind slightly finer.


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## MWJB

Don't stop the shot at 30sec, stop it when the ratio you are shooting for tastes good, adjusting taste by grind. Then record time, be aware of shots that are greatly different time-wise, to those that taste good.


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## emc2

Thanks all for your help. It is great for newbies like myself to be able to access such expertise. I pulled the best shot so far today! 16.5 gm in 30.2 gm out in 30 seconds. I had always struggled to differentiate between 'sweet' and 'sour' but now I can. The sage double boiler automatically selects a shot duration of 30 seconds but there is the option to choose volumetric settings.


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## tallamericano

Great to see someone having same issue.

i tried some new beans roasted 3 days ago on the sage barista pro

Dose 18g grind size 4. Yielded about 38-40g. Extraction time 29secs

taste was a bit burnt or bitter.

im now wondering if this is a temperature issue. Recently I increased the default temp on the machine to 1 higher but not so sure it made any difference .

tomorrow I'll try a slightly coarser grind.

any other suggestions welcome


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## grumble

I'd leave them a bit longer after the roast date if it was me.


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## TomHughes

grumble said:


> I'd leave them a bit longer after the roast date if it was me.


 Agree with this,
You need to leave them at least 7 days ideally, if they are a darker roast they will have those roasty burned flavours, if they are light they won't have gassed off.


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## Adam.f

This might help some people out, it gives a nice chart to work out where you might need to go next, I printed it out and stuck it on the fridge if I ran into trouble. I am quite new myself to coffee brewing but followed the rules by the more experienced on here, I have now got a consistent shot, with small adjustments if need be, one adjustment at a time. Anyway hope this helps someone out in the quest to a good shot!

https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/the-coffee-compass/


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## -Mac

That says it doesn't work with espresso.


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## Adam.f

Some of the principles you can still apply to the chart


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## Baristaexpressbrewing

Just wanted to add that from my experience with the bbe, I'm not sure how far apart your pulling those shots, but after the first shot for me the temp seems to be higher which changes the time and taste of the subsequent shots sometimes have to grind finer due to the shots running to fast due to increased temperature, not sure if anyone else has run into this. When pulling espresso especially when not a commercial machine even when it is , there are just a lot of variables. But I find I get very decent espresso from my bbe and have zero complaints especially for the cost of the machine. Also IMS has started making baskets and shower screens specifically for the bbe which imho have helped me get better shots than I even was previously. I also highly recommend bottomless portafilters to help see what the shot is doing to help dial in... just my two cents


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## ajohn

The temp is correct on the 2nd shot.

🤣 I get fed up of repeating this - if you want to pull a ristretto you stop the shot early. The effect of tuning low output purely by ratios has already been mentioned so not point in repeating it. Some bean might taste ok at ratios of 1 to 1 etc but I wouldn't bank on it.

So say 30sec produces 60g out. A ristretto would be produced by terminating the shot early, say at 20sec. Maybe 15. This changes the balance of what is extracted from the bean. Similarly a lungo would be obtained by extending the time.

There is another option as well. No name so I'll call it an @dfk41 shot as he is the only one I have seen mention it. Allow some of the shot to go directly to the drip tray and capture what comes after.


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## Mrboots2u

If you are going to just making ristretto shots then personally I'd dial them in accordingly , you will get thicker glooper shot than just stopping a shot early .

In my head constraining the flow through grind for a shorter ratio , is different to just stopping a shot early

The Dfk method is the traditional way of making a shorter shot.


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## ajohn

Mrboots2u said:


> If you are going to just making ristretto shots then personally I'd dial them in accordingly , you will get thicker glooper shot than just stopping a shot early .


*
HOW DOES YOUR BARISTA MAKE A RISTRETTO?
*

Some baristas and coffee bars make a ristretto in the same way as an espresso. Others like to do it differently. All ristretto shots have the same amount of dried coffee, water pressure and water temperature as espressos. On the other hand they use less water. Baristas will do this by pulling your espresso cup from the machine after 15 seconds or by grinding coffee beans longer so the coffee is finer and it will take them the same time to make a ristretto like an espresso.

Taken from

https://www.lorespresso.com/en_gb/what-is-ristretto

I have actually bought one, not for rather a long time though. Anyway one thing I will say is that when suitable my way will have the desired effect. The other is just saying oh I'll use a 1to1 ratio or what ever. Good luck.

Lots of commercial machines have more than 2 programmable buttons.


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## Mrboots2u

No I'm not saying use a 1;1 ratio or whatever , i dont know where you got that from..

I'm saying for my personal preference making one with a restricted flow has a different mouthfeel to one where a shot is stopped shorter , and of course this is commenting on home use.

99 % of commercial shops won't even offer a ristretto , they just dial in a coffee to a ratio that is there preference. If they are offering normal and ristretto then yes they are probably stopping the shot Early

I cant be arsed to find a load of links that say this is how a barista makes one, they are pointless, ,there are two different ways of doing it. I am just saying to me one has a different experience than ant other, Years ago they would have stopped at 15ml when blinding occurred , so stuff changes, try the different ways out and see what one likes,.

Either way they will be nominally under extracted .


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