# V60 - coffee sticking to sides with darker roast



## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

I posted this on the Feldgrind thread earlier but as it's not really anything related to Feldgrind I'll continue here.

I never had this problem before with all the others beans I used for V60, which were "scandinavian" style light roasts, but with a rather medium/dark roast beans, freshly roasted (roastery claims City+, but might be closer to Full City) a few days ago, I'm having most of the coffee sticking to the side of filter after extraction. This is how it looks like:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5519956/IMG_3522.jpg

In this one I used 12g/200ml. I bloom with 50g for 30s, and stir during bloom for 10-15s. Second pour is 50g at :30 and last one 100g at 1:00, and then I give it a gentle shake and tap to settle the beans. I also did a brew with 24g/400ml, doing one continuous pour after the bloom, but the coffee ended up on the sides again.

I've tried pouring around the edges but it doesn't seem to help, the coffee comes out looking like this everytime. One thing I've noticed is that the bloom is much larger than with lighter roasts. Anybody experienced this before?


----------



## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Bloom is dependent on the bean and the freshness of the roast.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

@the_partisan you also said in the other thread that the brews were now bitter, suspecting over-extraction? Your pour technique that worked for less soluble, lighter roasts is probably too slow for darker roasted coffee. So, I would be looking to speed up the pour, maybe by pouring in bigger, but fewer pulses, maybe even a longer bloom stage (60, maybe 90sec) with 20g of water, then all-in with the rest of the brew water in a single pour, spiralling in & out, finishing around the edges.

Very soluble coffee (darker roasted, or very soluble beans) might need faster flow, lighter roasted/less soluble beans conversely a slower flow.

The longer the beans are in the roaster the more CO2 they have, the less mass they have too, so they are probably more buoyant than the lighter roast beans, hence trying a longer bloom to try and waterlog them before the main pour.


----------



## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

MWJB said:


> @the_partisan you also said in the other thread that the brews were now bitter, suspecting over-extraction? Your pour technique that worked for less soluble, lighter roasts is probably too slow for darker roasted coffee. So, I would be looking to speed up the pour, maybe by pouring in bigger, but fewer pulses, maybe even a longer bloom stage (60, maybe 90sec) with 20g of water, then all-in with the rest of the brew water in a single pour, spiralling in & out, finishing around the edges.
> 
> Very soluble coffee (darker roasted, or very soluble beans) might need faster flow, lighter roasted/less soluble beans conversely a slower flow.
> 
> The longer the beans are in the roaster the more CO2 they have, the less mass they have too, so they are probably more buoyant than the lighter roast beans, hence trying a longer bloom to try and waterlog them before the main pour.


Thanks, it seems difficult to bloom for that long because the coffee seems to drain very very quickly, even though I was blooming with 50g. As soon as I pour water it seems to turn into some kind of sludge, absorbing most of the water. The total extraction time is around 2:30.

Here is a brew with 24g/400ml, which drained completely at 2:30:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5519956/IMG_3527.jpg

I did one continuous pour, fairly rapidly as well without overflowing the filter. Unfortunately the coffee still tasted quite bitter, but was ok when diluted with some more hot water.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Changing brew weights will change the times. Keep things the same or it's impossible to keep track of changes.

50g is a lot to use to bloom 12g of coffee (in Perger's method he is effectively pulse pouring, using the first pulse to wet & drive off CO2), 30g is going to drop straight through the bed into the cup & form an oily crust on your cup. The coffee bed will absorb about 1.5x dose weight, you might get a couple of g drop through.

If the coffee is tasting better diluted, then brew it weaker, maybe 11.4g:200g? Dark beans are more intense flavour wise, diluting shouldn't be greatly affecting bitterness per se.


----------



## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Changing brew weights will change the times. Keep things the same or it's impossible to keep track of changes.
> 
> 50g is a lot to use to bloom 12g of coffee (in Perger's method he is effectively pulse pouring, using the first pulse to wet & drive off CO2), 30g is going to drop straight through the bed into the cup & form an oily crust on your cup. The coffee bed will absorb about 1.5x dose weight, you might get a couple of g drop through.
> 
> If the coffee is tasting better diluted, then brew it weaker, maybe 11.4g:200g? Dark beans are more intense flavour wise, diluting shouldn't be greatly affecting bitterness per se.


Last brew was for 2 people, hence double the weight. Thanks, will give that a try! What about the coffee sticking to the sides? Is that to be expected with a dark roast/soluble coffee or is that just due to my technique? It never seems to happen with lighter roasts. This is how it normally looks like, using same technique:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5519956/IMG_3502.jpg


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dark roast coffee is more 'flyaway', may never look quite the same as a light roast brew. See if the longer bloom helps?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Are you grinding coarser for the darker beans ?


----------



## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Are you grinding coarser for the darker beans ?


First brew was the same, tried slightly coarser for second but had the same result.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

the_partisan said:


> First brew was the same, tried slightly coarser for second but had the same result.


Can you share these results with us? Grind setting, dose to 0.1g, brew water to 1g, bloom weight & time, pour details & total brew time, taste. Brew by brew. Otherwise you are changing things that we aren't aware of.


----------



## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

I also feel like tapping, stirring and swirling can add some inconsistencies in the brew times. I usually don't time the final time for my mastered brews (after managing to hit 4'00" brew time on Chemex within 5" range).

I banned myself from the Wave, so have been brewing in the V60 more for last few days and have been questioning that myself...


----------



## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Can you share these results with us? Grind setting, dose to 0.1g, brew water to 1g, bloom weight & time, pour details & total brew time, taste. Brew by brew. Otherwise you are changing things that we aren't aware of.


Sure will do, although probably in a few days as I'll be travelling for the next few days. Thanks for all the help!

Last try was F2.8 which drained in 2:15, with 50g/30sec bloom, pour at [email protected], and [email protected] Coffee tasted very bitter but OKish diluted. Next try will be F2.8 but with your suggestions for bloom, i.e. 60s bloom with 20g, and then pour the rest at 60s.


----------



## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Back from holiday and gave this another go, 12g/200ml with grind size of F2.10, 30g/45s bloom + stir and then add the rest of the water at :45. It drained pretty quickly at 2:05, and it didn't taste bitter for a change, and tasted quite ok, but maybe a little too thin? I will try with 2.8 next time using the same technique. I think adding less water in the bloom seems to have helped. The bed was still like a cone afterwards but I guess that's just how it is with these beans.


----------



## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

I am having problems with my feldgrind, V60 and IMM Brazil Fazenda Cachoeira. I always grind at 2.2, draining at 3:00 regardless of beans (so far). With these beans the first brew drained at 4:00+ so I have now opened to 2.10, and yet it took 4:00 which is weird, isn't it? Besides I also have coffee sticking to sides, more than usual, but I think this is due to coarser grind, as I am using similar grind setting to you. What its estrange is the long brew despite coarse grind, that should take similar to yours (based on grind setting, but I am single pouring). I think your problem will disappear is you grind finer.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

fede_luppi said:


> I am having problems with my feldgrind, V60 and IMM Brazil Fazenda Cachoeira. I always grind at 2.2, draining at 3:00 regardless of beans (so far). With these beans the first brew drained at 4:00+ so I have now opened to 2.10, and yet it took 4:00 which is weird, isn't it? Besides I also have coffee sticking to sides, more than usual, but I think this is due to coarser grind, as I am using similar grind setting to you. What its estrange is the long brew despite coarse grind, that should take similar to yours (based on grind setting, but I am single pouring). I think your problem will disappear is you grind finer.


What are your brew weights?

Have you bought new papers recently?

You say you are pouring in a single pour, is the water going in in a consistent time, are you blooming?


----------



## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

MWJB said:


> What are your brew weights?
> 
> Have you bought new papers recently?
> 
> You say you are pouring in a single pour, is the water going in in a consistent time, are you blooming?


15g>250g, 60g bloom for 30s and pour the remaining in ~50s in spiral and tap at ~1:20 when finished pouring. It usually takes 3:10 +- 10s. I am now using Japanese filters, but managed to adjust grind to complete draining at 3:10. The problem with timing has come up now with this new bag of beans, and I was previously brewing with consistent technique, timing and quality.


----------



## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

Any idea why grinding coarser does not reduce timing?


----------



## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

The reason the last bit of paper is clean is clogging at that exact point, dropping very slowly and taking ages for that small amount of remaining water


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

fede_luppi said:


> 15g>250g, 60g bloom for 30s and pour the remaining in ~50s in spiral and tap at ~1:20 when finished pouring. It usually takes 3:10 +- 10s. I am now using Japanese filters, but managed to adjust grind to complete draining at 3:10. The problem with timing has come up now with this new bag of beans, and I was previously brewing with consistent technique, timing and quality.
> 
> Any idea why grinding coarser does not reduce timing?
> 
> The reason the last bit of paper is clean is clogging at that exact point, dropping very slowly and taking ages for that small amount of remaining water?.


OK, overall timings look good. 60g is a lot for a static bloom on 15g of coffee, 40g or so of that is just going to drop through the coffee, try blooming with 20-30g & stir the bloom, looking for minimal drip through.

Grinding coarser is not altering timings because you are not grinding coarse enough. If this coffee is the one that has taken longest to drain, tastes generally good at that time & is consistent, I'd leave the grind setting where it is & for faster draining coffees pulse pour.

At the start of the brew, when the slurry height is high, grounds will be more buoyant & float on the top of the slurry & will be deposited on the filter wall. As the brew progesses the rest of the grounds become waterlogged & sink to the bed...this probably has a bearing on your clean band. The stir at bloom should help wet all the grounds at the same time & hopefully reduce the grounds at the top of the filter wall, but if the coffee is very gassy, there still may be some.

If you can't get a gentle spin with just the pour, give the slurry a single stir, just at the surface.

As brew water weight above the bed drops, flow slows. Also the bed gets more compact...the last few g will take longer to drain than perhaps the first 100g. This is pretty normal.


----------



## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

MWJB said:


> OK, overall timings look good. 60g is a lot for a static bloom on 15g of coffee, 40g or so of that is just going to drop through the coffee, try blooming with 20-30g & stir the bloom, looking for minimal drip through.
> 
> Grinding coarser is not altering timings because you are not grinding coarse enough. If this coffee is the one that has taken longest to drain, tastes generally good at that time & is consistent, I'd leave the grind setting where it is & for faster draining coffees pulse pour.
> 
> ...


Many thanks for such a great response. I forgot to say I follow Matt Perger's method in the video on Vimeo, so I do stir during bloom. I bloom with 60g because Matt uses 50g of water for 12g of coffee, so I adjusted to 60g of water for my 15g of coffee.

Thanks for confirming what I had observed so I now Know its normal. Cheers.


----------



## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

I've had a few good brews now at F2.8, 30g/45s bloom + stir, and then pour the rest slowly. Also I give it a good shake afterwards to settle the grounds as much as I can, though they still stick to the sides and there is still a hole in the middle afterwards. The total brew ended up at around 2:15.

Is it right that, during blooming, not much coffee should be dripping below?

I realized though that I will stick to lighter roasts as they tend to be more enjoyable with the V60.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

the_partisan said:


> Is it right that, during blooming, not much coffee should be dripping below?.


It depends entirely on how much water you bloom with, in the early stages of the brew, the grounds bed will only hold about 1.5 times its own weight in bloom water, though people have been using 2x dose weight for years (but I'd expect a little drip through & it not to be an issue).

If you are pouring in lots of small pulses, using more than twice the weight of the dose as the first pour, expect coffee to drip through pretty much from the start. Stir at the first addition of water.

This really only helps people relay similar timings to each other. Whether you have say a 30s bloom with no/little drip through, or whether you have some drip through and then follow up with frequent pulses, it doesn't seem to make a significant difference as long as the coffee is well wetted at the start. The bloom with no drip through just adds 30sec (or whatever) to total brew time.

You seem to have to bloom for a lot longer than 30s to make an impact on the speed of the remaining brew.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

the_partisan said:


> Also I give it a good shake afterwards to settle the grounds as much as I can, though they still stick to the sides and there is still a hole in the middle afterwards.


the hole in the middle is likely because you're pouring more in the middle than evenly over the bed, washing down the walls. If you're happy with the brews, then it's up to you to decide whether this is an issue.


----------



## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

MWJB said:


> the hole in the middle is likely because you're pouring more in the middle than evenly over the bed, washing down the walls. If you're happy with the brews, then it's up to you to decide whether this is an issue.


I am actually pouring down the sides as well, but the coffee just seems very sticky, this was never an issue with lighter roasts. I've now tried to grind a little finer at F2.6 with 24g/45s bloom and the brew finished at 2:10. Tasted even sweeter without any bad flavours. Still have the sweet aftertaste after 10min. Very nice! Also grinding finer doesn't seem to have made big difference in the brew time so far. I might even try a little finer to see if I can get even more sweetness.

It seems like technique made all the difference since previously I was getting very bitter coffee at F2.8 using pulse pouring. I have a feeling I might just always use continuous pour from now on as it seems easier to be consistent with it.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Good to see you're getting some improvement.

Pulse pouring & continuous pouring can both get you to the same result, but if you just substitute pulse pouring for a single pour, without significantly coarsening up your grind (more than 2 marks on a Feldgrind), for the same coffee, you will extract a lot more.


----------

