# Are we confusing people?



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Just thought I would get the thoughts and feelings of folk on here about the advice that is given out to members regarding grinders.

Firstly the trend I have noticed ( on a forum that is supposedly not sponsor led ) is for a few on here to pimp out bella barista and the Eureka zenith at almost every given opportunity, now the zenith is a competent grinder but is not the be all and end all as it has been portrayed to be and to be honest it is getting a bit tiresome. I would certainly rather that a broad spectrum of grinders are considered with owners inputs and those experienced in using them putting forward recommendations and why. The zenith scenario has recently got more confusing when posts are appearing that it is not the super grinder it has been portrayed be but is merely average.

How do we keep advice neutral? What can we set up as a reference point for new members to go to, perhaps a thread on each grinder where the front page has a distilled list of the pros and cons of each grinder individually, with best place to buy and why. The pros and cons can be taken from owners experience and those who have actually had hands on experience giving feedback in each thread. The first post in each thread can be updated every now and again by mods to keep the information current.

As much as I rate Bella Barista as a supplier, there are other retailers out there including other sponsors who deserve equal mention if they can give great deals, so let's find the deals spread the love and encourage better deals for all, but let's give the best advice we can.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

BB are a bit guilty of putting too much emphasis on the machine imo


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Great idea, something like they have at coffeegeek, that I stumbled across when I was first looking for a grinder, (before I found this place)


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Maybe do a user survey. Select a list of grinders, ask users that have owned to rate on a few key factors and then put a summary of their experiences.

The problem is that whatever happens it's going to be based on subjective opinion to a degree as it's very hard to get down to the facts and figures regarding grinders.

If there was a way then I think that it would be very useful indeed!


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Unless members actually have more than one machine it is rather difficult to do a comparison and review with any accuracy IMHO.

It's easy to say it grinds ok but it clumps for example but how bad is this and does it really matter in comparison to other grinders

Ian


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Maybe somone could start with the ek save me wading through the "goes all the way to l1" thread


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

As a relative noob I got the point very quickly. The grinder counts. I still haven't managed to find anything suitable but I understand. BB are a commercial concern and, by all accounts, a good one. It is nonetheless understandable that they will push their own products and those with the higher margins.

I'm still hoping for A) a second hand Pharos or B) a decent grinder from Dave (CC) or elsewhere. The machine comes second. The espresso machine is inherently less reliable than the grinder and is maybe better bought new with a decent warranty. BB seem ideal for this. On the other hand, grinders are reliable bits of kit and with the odd exception easy and cheap to fix if they go wrong. As I see it you're better off going for a used grinder and a new machine.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I think that's pretty spot on by Jeebsy IMHO. From my experience an upgrade on the grinder makes a much greater improvement compared to an upgrade to the machine.

I jumped from a :-

Classic with a Mignon

to a Classic with a SJ

to a QM Andreja with a SJ

I noticed a bigger jump on just the SJ upgrade compared to the Machine (which is fantastic I have to say).

From my experience of buying both new and used grinders in the go for a "used" one from a reliable source for the best value for money.

The new Mignon did look pretty though, I'm still tempted to get the SJ painted.


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

Maybe a few subsections budget, middle and titan then the owners of grinders in each section can help and people with budgets in mind can go to the correct section ie budget/entrey£200-£500 and so on.

The general ethos is grinder first machine second, yet the machines have all the sub sections?

A bigger more organised section for grinders and their owners might fix a few of these issues.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I guess that at least the Zenith 65 -E is a better grinder than an MC2 or Mignon. I do have to agree here with Jeebsy that BB seem to always emphasise the machine over the grinder, recently a member bought a Verona and a MIgnon to accompany it, which I'm certain won't do the machine much justice at all. I have never been able to work out why they take this approach even though they do sell a reasonable range of grinders.

We do seem to have a recent influx of a larger number of new members who don't seem to be willing to even consider buying used gear, for some reason grinders in particular, which personally I just don't understand as you get far far more grinder for £500 on the used market than new, maybe it's just a case that as longer standing members we have grown to trust each other more and that makes us more willing to buy used? I certainly know that I couldn't have afforded or justified owning a Mythos at full price.

Maybe as we already have a small wiki this could be expanded initially with the more popular grinders and added to over time. Price banding grinders really only works if you are buying new as prices can vary so much, particularly if you don't mind getting stuck in and deep cleaning, refurbishing and servicing a grinder off say Gumtree yourself then you are more likely to find a bargain, but you must be prepared to put in some work and get dirty and smelly when cleaning rancid coffee grounds and oils from one. Buying used from members is always a good option, and seems to run in cycles as people go from say a Mignon or MC2 to a Mazzer SJ and then move on to something even bigger and better.


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Maybe I'm just too trusting but I'd buy a used grinder on here from one of the regulars without a blink.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Maybe start with a poll. List 10-15 popular grinders in a few different price ranges/categories. Then get owners to vote for their first choice only. After the poll closes you then take the top three and do a peer reviewed writeup on each of them listing pros/cons. Post on the home page.


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

Totally agree id buy anything I needed on here first madness buying anywhere else, so you can put me in the noob Willing to buy used bit lol


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

Yeh, I am after a grinder upgrade myself and am finding all the information out there a bit overwhelming / confusing. This sounds good, anything to narrow it down is great in my book! Like everything it gets complicated when size restrictions, budget, faff factors come in to play. The whole thing is getting the right compromise and whats good for one person may not suit another. For example I have a SJ which I upgraded to from a Mignon. In the cup its a great upgrade no question, but I am getting frustrated with the faff especially when we have visitors and I am in the kitchen for 20 minutes, brushing, weighing pumping blah blah. Also I know we all rave about used grinders, but actually the availability is not that high in my experience... Ah what the hell perhaps I should just order the Versalab and be done with it, haha!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Wobin19 said:


> .. Ah what the hell perhaps I should just order the Versalab and be done with it, haha!


Hold that idea until I after I post about my latest experience!!


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Evening all

Echoing Wobin19's post above and others I too am a little confused as to where to go next. Am not averse to second/third etc user, in fact makes perfect sense when you are thinking particularly about grinders designed with longevity in a commercial environment especially if you know where the grinder in question has come from.

Each user will have differing priorities, speed for some, no clumping for others, no grind retention etc etc so any form of clear peer guidance would be welcomed.

The whole issue of machine over grinder is very reminiscent of the amplifier / speakers over stylus/cartridge / turntable (or any input of quality) that plagued the hi fi world in the 80's & 90's. Whilst slightly extreme, the saying at the time "garbage in, garbage out" could be updated to reiterate the grinders role in the equation.

Am aware of the shortfalls in my own grinder and would look to replace this first rather than machine as see the logic of a better grind in effect being amplified by the machine, only going down the machine route once any shortcomings with it then become apparent (unless of course a bargain comes along then would succomb just as quickly as anyone else... must be a gender thing







)

John


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Do tell, thinking the same myself, is a bueatiful bit off kit


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Not yet but soon i promise


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

I agree with the sentiments of CC's original post. I think we should all be careful and I can only really talk about what I have personal experience of. In terms of grinders it is the Mazzer Mini E and my present Compak K10. I've also used the Hausgrind, the Porlex Mini and I have both models of Rosco hand grinder.

Anything other than these is based on hearsay and what I've read.

However, having seen the Versalab M3 in action (in Merseyside) then that'll be my next purchase.

So if anyone wants to know about what I've got then I'm happy to give my opinion - based on my usage with very dark beans.

As our US cousins would say YMMV!!

DB


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Eloquently put as always

Like the idea of pro and cons of grinders. My only reservation is that often people ask is x better than y . So some of it comes down to comparative analysis and experience . For instance some people's first grinder is the zenith or a mignion . It does Exactly what the OP wants it do , but are they in position to give comparative info versus say an SJ.

Also The forum gets asked a lot "what grinder should I buy ? "

Perhaps we should ask for the same basic info from the OP each time so we can make a sound judgement based on what their needs are rather than what is " value " at the time .

Questions like

Price , size ( needs to go under cabinet ) new or refurb , single dose , used by you or by rest of family , how many drinks , will you change beans a lot , etc etc etc.

I'll send across some ideas re this to Glenn and CC and see where we can take this going forward ..or if it's just a duff idea then I won't ...









Re equipment list and peope, who they can visit. I have the data on spreadsheets

Is there anyone who might want to put it into a database we could link on here so pit could be added to in future and searched by people for ease of use .

If not I'll just stick the list up as is

Cheers


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Not yet but soon i promise[/
> 
> something specific on the versalab perhaps?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Could you 'embed' a Google document so it would update in real time? Or is that crazy talk?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Could you 'embed' a Google document so it would update in real time? Or is that crazy talk?


If you know how to do this drop me a pm ...


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Even if we can't do that a spreadsheet for grinders and another for machines could work. You put your username, the grinders or machines you've used, price and the positives and negatives. People could filter the sheet by the piece of equipment they're interested in to see the pros and cons.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Wobin19 said:


> coffeechap said:
> 
> 
> > Not yet but soon i promise[/
> ...


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

You maybe confusing people you maybe not . On the whole i think its the latter one .

From my personal experience , with which I class myself as newbie , jointing the forum was the best think I could have done.

It doesn't take long to work out the characters of the forum and gleaming information on the way and receiving some good advice from other members is very helpful to guide me on my way.

From the offset a new member joining ,it is likely they have come from a google search request and they have lurked and browsed the forum realising and noticing their are like minded people asking the same questions .

You don't have to look far as a 'newbie' to realise You need good freshly roasted coffee, a decent grinder is essential and most people would already have in their head what machine they would love to own, and like most purchases in life they already know the competitive machines.

I guess if you wanted to make it less confusing you would have to consider a review system but what weaves through the forum is a little bit of competitiveness and a review system would need to have a good dose of impartiality to make it quite credible .


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

The key question in Coffeechap's OP is, 'how do we keep advice neutral?' - easier said than done - that is, separating opinion from fact and, even worse, opinion presented as fact. Would be great for side by side bench tested comparisons such as the BB pdf featuring four or five grinders. I used just such a test (not from BB) to come to a decision on my last grinder.

Having a grinder database with forum members' hands on experience would be useful - wouldn't really address the side by side bench test comparison though.

The forum is a great place to share information, questions, ideas, opinions and even prejudices - keeping it neutral when it comes to kit is perhaps impossible.


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> - keeping it neutral when it comes to kit is perhaps impossible.


cc has the advantage of having a couple of handfuls of grinders in use at any time & thus is able to give an unbiased opinion of the merits or otherwise of any of them.

Mere mortals who represent the majority of the members own probably one. Someone who has lashed out as much as he/she can afford for a grinder will likely give a positive view on something he/she has spent so much money on. Opinion would probably be based against the grinder he/she had before upgrading..

Some change grinders at a fair rate of knots. Would they have had enough time with one & able to test the results through different brewing methods & espresso machines.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm not 'so' sure that an equipment database is the first priority. (I'm imagining something like the back of What HiFi magazine where they have summarised all their equipment reviews into key features, price and a star rating).

I think the market does move and what may be missing is a well signposted article that sets out the current CF consensus view. With some discursive narrative ie insight as much as empirical data.

I liked CC's grinder summary for this reason. It should be sticky.

I think it would be easy to post updates and maintain original post so they stay current.

Next step in member behaviours would be for the first responder to a new (but frequently asked) question to point the new 'askers' to the consensus summary post first. One can always say after that "but based on my own experience and your situation you might think about..."

Staying current is the key though. A few years ago the HB review articles were like gold but now so much has moved on they're not so helpful.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> The key question in Coffeechap's OP is, 'how do we keep advice neutral?' - easier said than done .


How neutral is a review commissioned by and published on a retailer's website?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Spazbarista said:


> How neutral is a review commissioned by and published on a retailer's website?


Fair point but the seller BB stocked all the grinders at the time? Not as if they were promoting one. Believe the review was carried out by DaveC and, for one, think it was as neutral as a review can be.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Its more of a question than a point, but its pretty apposite to the OP.

The rush on the grinders was, I think it is fair to say, brought about by davec posting up a thread about a BB offer, with a link to a review on the BB website.

BB shifted a bunch of grinders off the back of this. Now I'm not making a value judgement on the integrity of the review* but I would suggest that in most of our other dealings we would exercise considerable scepticism of reviews commissioned and published by a retailer. It is a pretty standard marketing tactic and has been for years. The internet has taken it out of magazines and put it on our screens, but we all know that not all magazine reviews could be taken seriously... some distributors would insist on positive reviews in return for buying large chunks of advertising space, individual journalists would get kickbacks.

I've no idea on what basis davec is remunerated for his time, if at all, or indeed whether BB chooses what to stock on the basis of his advice, but perhaps clarification is needed.

*I bought a 65E too on the basis of davec's review


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Perhaps the OP can name another grinder, brand new for £499?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

You cannot get impartial advice on a forum. You get opinion and opinion is based usually on life experience. If cc was not available with his usual selection of used gear which has been scrutinised, would people be so quick to recommend used? I have no skills with my hands, so for me knowing a grinders history is important, which is why I usually buy new


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

You can get a Super Jolly new delivered for £500.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Can any reviewer be impartial then?


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

It depends on whether they have a vested interest.

Are they trying to sell you something...


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Agreed - neutrality of any review is always open to question from some perspective or other - some, as you point out are particularly questionable bias-wise.

As for the forum, I would hope any newbie is savvy enough to do their research, read widely and check out the opinion of those who own/have owned the piece of kit in question before committing to buy.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Can any reviewer be impartial then?


Difficult but not impossible - that's the philosophy behind Which.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I certainly can be impartial, I rebuild mazzers but it is not the grinder that I recommend to people who are looking, I think there are lots a fabulous grinders out there that are often over looked due to the stock advice of Mazzer. Plenty of people will attest to the advice that I have given and the grinders that they have managed to source for themselves as a result. I have no vested interest with anyone and would happily review any grinder and give an impartial review of it. Distilling experiences and knowledge into an easy guide is my aim, how we do this is up to the forum.

Dfk are there other grinders new for £499 yes lots of them super jolly already mentioned Mazzer mini, Quamar, to name a few but used well that's a different matter mythos! K10, royal, k30, lacimbali magnum rr55, and the list goes on. I agree that the deal at bb is a decent one but it has now become the sole option given by a few on here. By your own admission the rr55 is a much better grinder yet these can be had for circa £300 refurbed and £200 if you hunt them out.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I Agree but to keep it simple, separAte new from used. The argument is not the same. Spaz, name me another od grinder without doser for £499


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

M80

13 grinders


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Not as simple as just separating as when people actually know how much better a used grinder can be then they often reconsider.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Does it have to be exactly £499, or would £498.99 do?

Anyway, for a shade over £499 you can get a mini mazzer electronic


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I must admit this thread is simply making me want to






just "another brick in the wall" getting in the way of my willingness to post anything on the forum. If you guys really want to help newcomers, take a long hard look at this thread. By this thread, I mean this actual thread.....the one I'm posting in.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The M80 has been slagged off on a regular basis. Spaz, grow up and come back tomorrow and we will try joined up writing. At £499, there is very little choice. If BB want to drop the price of their grinder for the forum then who is anybody to question that?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Zenith as I have already said, is not a great grinder in the concept of what is available, but it is a good grinder at that price point. Yes, second hand will get you a wider choice, we all know that. But, for someone wanting to buy a new grinder as an upgrade, without spending £1000 plus and without wanting second hand, and wanting something better than a Mignon, then it makes a good bet. I have had one. I have said it is not as good on delivery as a RR50 but the electronics are far better and it is getting on for half of the price the RR was before they stopped making it. There will always be a good argument for and against following any particular route and everyone will chop in with their but and experiences. At the end of the day, the responsibility lies with the poster to make his own decision and not follow blindly the advice given by any other poster on here.


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

I agree that there is lots of misinformation:

1) How can we recommend the Zenith whose reliability is unknown? Yes it is a Eureka - then again it is not a Mazzer which are extremely reliable and exist in almost all cafes - which is a fine brand but does not mean it is a reliable grinder?

2) Lots of newbies that buy a Mignon come back and say that it is a great grinder and recommend it to more people. How can someone judge that a grinder is great (and even recommend it) without having experience with any other grinder?

3) Most people seems to recommend and favor what they own at the moment. This does not make sense at all. Of course you can post your experience with your specific grinder but if you had not have another or even more logically a few grinders, how can you compare or even declare that it is an excellent grinder?

P.S. I am one of the few people - maybe the only one - that has bought a new Mignon and I do not like it much. Very big adjustments required everyday even with same beans (crazy adjustments from bean to bean) and lots of clumping.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I must admit this thread is simply making me want to
> View attachment 8180
> just "another brick in the wall" getting in the way of my willingness to post anything on the forum. If you guys really want to help newcomers, take a long hard look at this thread. By this thread, I mean this actual thread.....the one I'm posting in.


Is that the original post Dave or the content? This is a debate and brainstorming thread that will form some of the basis of an idea that I am having to give clearer advise to those wanting to upgrade, is that a bad thing?


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Spazbarista said:


> How neutral is a review commissioned by and published on a retailer's website?





jeebsy said:


> Can any reviewer be impartial then?


I think it's perfectly possible to 'represent/advocate' in one context and be impartial in another. I also think that the context is usually pretty clear.

As for BB tear down reviews, my own sense is that these have been by way of 'added value' offerings rather than promotional pieces. I think they are balanced and helpful.

I also think this audience (us lot) has to be one of the most detail oriented and sophisticated out there. It's not like we're going to fall for Wonga Grannies promising what you see is what you pay whilst dancing to distract us from the 1700%APR.

All that said, CC raises an interesting question about whether the best version of the expertise available on here is quickly laid out in an accessible and non-contradictory way for new users.

I think it's about formalising (a little) a CF consensus view with plenty of space for individuals to add dissenting views.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dave, this will never work in a month of sundays, because everything is subjective. it is like trying to explain to the Government, that in principle, decision trees look a fantastic way of sharing information..the truth is they are ****coks, in my industry anyway. the reason people ask for help is that they do not know. therefore they are automatically open to persuasion, be it one way or the other.

Why is the bible not to be believed. because it is written by man for man. ultimately power corrupts..always has done and always will do. Your opinion as a grinder expert is no more valid than mine as a numpty. The best way forward here, is for people to stop dishing out advice, which is usually not advice but buy what I have cos it is fantastic,and point people in a vague way to the bands of choice that they have. This could be something like:

upgrading from a Classic. It would seem the next step up is a Sylvia. this is because of........

From there, the next step would be an hx machine and the benefits of this are....

And then you move onto double boilers. The advantages are..... and all the relevant costings can be shown. This advice is immediately exposed when someone starts to bang on about buying second hand. No one would recommend buying an ebay or gumtree special unless they have access to someone or can fix it themselves. So, the only second hand ones that should be recommended, are ones that have at least been checked, mended, overhauled etc etc.

So, whilst not being unhelpful, I personally see nothing wrong with pointing out to anyone who asks, that there is currently a grinder which many people have bought, be it right or wrong (and so far no grumbles?) which on face value would be a good deal. I am sure other forum sponsors, seeing the sales this has generated could realise they are missing a trick and permute other grinders in the same way...yet the silence is deafening. I can tell you, BB ordered 15 of these grinders, putting their money where their mouth is.....and that seems to have paid off as they all sold and they are into their second batch now.

If there were 20 forum members,all looking for one of the better value grinders from the list of usual suspects, how long are they going to have to wait for these to appear?


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

It doesnt matter which forum you frequent - be it hifi, cameras, guns, cars - the list goes on. Invariably, when a question is asked as to what to buy, the answers will be in two categories :

Buy the model that I own or buy the model thats currently in vogue.

I'm not saying that either is the wrong answer but both are the opinion of that individual. Back to coffee, without getting into a brand war, Ive seen some of the recommended grinders in action and have to say that I'm not overly impressed with the results. Its all about levels / expectations. One mans junk is another mans gold.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> because everything is subjective


There is no objective truth


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> There is no objective truth


Except that one, boom, boom


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

What about something like this? We could do an online form and then a couple of users could administer the sheet to ensure that nothing bad happens to it? At the end of the day it's going to be subjective so maybe try and keep it generic...


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Maybe a bit easier to read :s


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Maybe a bit easier to read :s


OK add dimensions ?

Height and depth are a consideration


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

OK I'm also looking for a mignion and a mc2 and a zenith and any other grinder owners to take a couple of clips of their machines in action for threads and Pm.me if interested


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> OK add dimensions ?
> 
> Height and depth are a consideration


What are we trying to achieve? Can't anyone with an Internet find the dimensions, burr size, speed etc... I would keep it simple personally, what do the specs alone not tell you?

Just my 2c


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I have no idea what we are trying to achieve


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> I have no idea what we are trying to achieve


Ok so all we need is a new sticky called, after a new espresso grinder?

Content, just get an EK43, sorted

Simples


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## michaelg (Jul 25, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> The M80 has been slagged off on a regular basis.


Perhaps we can hold off on judging it until Dave's had a chance to evaluate the one he's buying just now fully. Personally I find it very good and more than adequate for my needs. Not everyone I would say can fully discern the benefits of titan grinders in the cup - especially if they are mainly drinking milk drinks and/or adding sugar.


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

Xpenno said:


> Ok so all we need is a new sticky called, after a new espresso grinder?
> 
> Content, just get an EK43, sorted
> 
> Simples


I think it should say: buy an EK43 or a Versalab M3. Sorted!

Doubly simples!


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

DavidBondy said:


> I think it should say: buy an EK43 or a Versalab M3. Sorted!
> 
> Doubly simples!


Ok, let's go for that then. Let's lock this thread down and get the sticky created


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> What are we trying to achieve? Can't anyone with an Internet find the dimensions, burr size, speed etc... I would keep it simple personally, what do the specs alone not tell you?
> 
> Just my 2c


Height without a hopper might be valuable


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> I have no idea what we are trying to achieve


What about grinder Top Trumps!?


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

urbanbumpkin said:


> What about grinder Top Trumps!?


My K10 fresh: 17g in 4sec!


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

DavidBondy said:


> My K10 fresh: 17g in 4sec!


MY mazzer Super Jolly , doser retention 5g


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

DavidBondy said:


> My K10 fresh: 17g in 4sec!


My Mythos 20.8g in 3.65 seconds


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Don't make me play the EK card


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

My grinder mashes beans


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

My grinds peppercorns


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mine grinds quarks.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Mine grinds quarks.


Mine grinds Ferengi


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Mine grinds quarks.


Can it not manage the Higgs Bosons though?


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

Big bang fan Charliej?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Not really just have some knowledge of physics.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I've got o level physics too and have played Kerplunk quite a lot..


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Wobin19 said:
> 
> 
> > Correct I will reveal all in a week
> ...


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

There was a breakdown....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> There was a breakdown....


There was a meltdown ...


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

There's been a few on here actually


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

Coffeechaps had a melt down? You lot talk in riddles sometimes!


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Wobin19 said:


> Coffeechaps had a melt down? You lot talk in riddles sometimes!


His Versalab had a serious meltdown, the power pcb failed and took out the motor as well so they had to be replaced with the latest versions.


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> There's been a few on here actually


Thanks! This has happened to more than one M3 then?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Wobin19 said:


> Thanks! This has happened to more than one M3 then?


No I don't believe so


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

Good. I thought you were going to reveal an inherent design fault or similar. I'm still holding that thought....


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

The Versalab as it comes from their factory has served me & many others for six years or more.

Its a great small but powerful machine excelling in home use.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Wobin19 said:


> Thanks! This has happened to more than one M3 then?


Only one Versalab broke down, many members have broken down however


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Only one Versalab broke down, many members have broken down however


Trying to put it back together in CC's shed at 11 pm in the dark wasn't the easiest of jobs . And all I had to do was hold a screw driver ....l


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

It seems that one breakdown (albeit by a lightly used, six-year old machine) has had the effect of severely denting the M3's reputation!

I think that there are so few here (soon to be one more!) makes one such meltdown (literally) seem more critical. That it belonged to CoffeeChap all the more so!

Having spent an arm and a leg on parts, I do not believe that CC is planning to move the M3 on and if he did, I do not expect that it would linger long on the for sale thread!

Have Mazzers or Mahlkönigs or Compaks never broken down?

David (for the sake of clarity - I have ordered and am awaiting my M3 from Versalab)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

DavidBondy said:


> It seems that one breakdown (albeit by a lightly used, six-year old machine) has had the effect of severely denting the M3's reputation!
> 
> I think that there are so few here (soon to be one more!) makes one such meltdown (literally) seem more critical. That it belonged to CoffeeChap all the more so!
> 
> ...


Agree I think It should have been left up to CC to decide if he wanted to pass on his experiences with the versalab or not etc , not come from a second hand source ...

It Was easy to put back together and worked like a dream on forum day though

Cheers


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Don't think it should have been a secret though either.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> There was a breakdown....


Agree also.....



jeebsy said:


> Don't think it should have been a secret though either.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Second that about running like a dream on Sunday , wouldn't expect anything less from the dude!

and judging by the attention it got from others a very desirable bit of kit .

PS still in awe about his unselfishness to allow people to have total and utter free reign on what is such a valuable piece of kit .


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Don't think it should have been a secret though either.


There is no secret, jeebsy, people at the event that were interested, were told about what happened, I am currently chatting to versalab about this and will post on my experience in due time, but rest assured I will disclose everything once VL customer service have had a chance to respond to me.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Openness is good, was just when boots said it should be up to you to share wasn't sure if there was an Assange or Snowden at work...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Openness is good, was just when boots said it should be up to you to share wasn't sure if there was an Assange or Snowden at work...


My bad , meant that he could relay anything re how versalab responded to it breaking and replacing parts , what their service was like , how easy it was to fix , how much it cost ....

Sorry for the confusion etc. Apols.....


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

ronsil said:


> The Versalab as it comes from their factory has served me & many others for six years or more.
> 
> Its a great small but powerful machine excelling in home use.


errr... The VL it's a lot of things but powerful...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Totally agree the versalab is one of the most underpowered grinders I have ever used


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

Hate to put the thread back on the OP's original questions, but has there been a definitive answer for giving newcomers a little hint towards the pros and cons of different grinders as im sure this was muted about 2 years ago?

we even suggested a similar chart to the one on coffee geek?


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Does it not depend on ones budget to which grinder is recommended... ? When i first came on here, it was absolute bare minimal was the MC2. But if you had a bit more to spend it was always the Eureka mignon....

Although having so many people recommend the same grinder for beginners was quite reassuring it would of been nice to have some sort of sticky chart to look at, just to provide more options. I have no idea about the zenith, but at £500 brand new if its felt that its sub par to other offerings in that price range, its probably important people are made aware of that....

i think a chart would be a great idea... I can certainly contribute to the low end grinder section... Would it be a case of attaching videos of it running? Maybe 3 pictures of different grind settings? You'll have to let me know if you are still planning to do it boots.

But overall a reference point for people would be great.. Even for people like me that will one day upgrade to the mid range market.


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Yes, I made the same mistake and got the mignon new. Now after a month or so I want to upgrade.


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## VJC (Apr 23, 2014)

To answer the original question - yes. And I'm still confused; currently I've got a hand grinder (porlex mini) & want to upgrade to an electric one, currently mainly for brewed, but reading through pages & pages of threads (often giving contradictory opinions) has left me in a state of total and utter confusion over what grinder to get.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Burnzy said:


> Does it not depend on ones budget to which grinder is recommended... ? When i first came on here, it was absolute bare minimal was the MC2. But if you had a bit more to spend it was always the Eureka mignon....
> 
> Although having so many people recommend the same grinder for beginners was quite reassuring it would of been nice to have some sort of sticky chart to look at, just to provide more options. I have no idea about the zenith, but at £500 brand new if its felt that its sub par to other offerings in that price range, its probably important people are made aware of that....
> 
> ...


Zenith 65E is not sub par to other grinders in it's price range (I did mean to post when I saw CC posting something along those lines, but couldn't be arsed) . *When comparing new grinders*, it out performs everything else (I have used) in it's price range and even more so when you consider the features it has. Also yes, it's better than a Super Jolly, there I've said it. I think CC post was referring to used grinders when the comments of price vs performance were made.

A chart would be a good idea, but your not going to produce it by forum consensus.

When grinders advice is being requested on this forum, it can sometimes overlook what the poster is asking for and many areas are not fully considered. Some of the common ones overlooked are.

1. Did they want new or used

2. Are there size limitations

3. What's the budget (1 above often still applies)

4. Dosered or Doserless

5. Do they want to mod said grinder

6. Do they want an HG1 or similar hand grinder

The other think I think should be made clear. Grinders of the Eureka Mignion Class and similar designs, I believe are the bare minimum required for espresso (or anything else)....the bare minimum. Is it great, no, it's OK, but only the bare minimum. When you think many people pair these with machines costing 1900 or more, has to make you stop and think.

The Iberital MC2, is not a fantastic grinder, it's a feel good grinder that I feel had it's good day years ago....there I've said it (I have actually said it a few times before)!

The advice of a Gaggia Classic + Iberital MC2 is some of the worst advice we can give people.

So if you're going to buy a grinder and you want a good one, for a starter grinder, either spend a decent amount new (Zenith 65E, Mazzer Super Jolly, Mazzer Mini E etc..) or go buy a used grinder of similar quality. If you want the bare minimum required....then get a Eureka Mignon or simlar.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Dave when exactly in this thread have I said the eureka is inferior? my comments were about it being the in vogue recommended grinder without redirect to any other grinders or options.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Dave when exactly in this thread have I said the eureka is inferior? my comments were about it being the in vogue recommended grinder without redirect to any other grinders or options.


Glad to hear you don't think the Eureka Zenith 65E is, perhaps I misunderstood? As far as in vogue, I asked them to give forum members a deal on the grinder, they agreed. For someone who wants a brand new grinder, for the money it's probably the best bang for your buck brand new and of a sensible size. If people want to recommend it brilliant, if they don't, fine no problem.



> Firstly the trend I have noticed ( on a forum that is supposedly not sponsor led ) is for a few on here to pimp out bella barista and the Eureka zenith at almost every given opportunity


*If the offer is offending people, or breaking forum rules, Glenn can always ask them to remove it. *So far the Eureka Mignon is pushed at every opportunity personally by an advertser on here, the excellent stock clearance offer on the Mignon by Happy Donkey (unbeatable price even though old model) and another supplier selling his clearance grinders on here when he gets them. None of this particularly upsets me as long as all vendors offer good support, back up and warranty for their products. At the end of the day is the consumer getting access to good deals? Answer, yes, it looks like they are. As for used grinders, the for sale section is there for all used grinders to be sold within, by anyone. I really don't see a problem.

Me personally, the constant reference to the Mignon annoys me a bit, but not as much as the MC2 suggestions and this is purely down to grind quality. There are many other grinders out there which I am always interested to hear about. The whole 65E thing came about because Mazzer are so up themselves, it's hard to get a decently priced new one these days and it's not because their special, it's the name. So something else was outed which was better, cheaper new and will eventually find their way onto the used market.


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