# Gaggia Classic 2013 refurb



## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

I picked this up with a 50 mile round trip taking a bit of a punt on it really.

Any fears were unfounded. The woman who came to the door with the box assured me she bought it from new for her husband's birthday pressie a few years ago. (in fact six years ago!)

I couldn't check it there and then as we were social distancing.

Back at home it looks like this machine has only been used a few times by its one owner from new, and maybe for coffee pods only! (Just 2 baskets supplied both pressurized)

So a total descale on all parts will be done although there is very little scale.

I'm fitting an oil filled pressure gauge this time on the front panel as there is apparently less vibration of the needle while it's operating under pressure

I'm also fitting a new larger solenoid valve, as the smaller valve that's fitted to the 2013 model tends to cause blockages with scale build up.

I'm fitting a new Rancilio Sylvia steam wand for improved milk frothing

All new o rings, seals, and also changing most of the bolts, to 316 grade stainless steel.

OPV will be set at 9.5 bar, as it drops 0.5 bar at the portafilter, the ideal pressure at that point most agree is 9 bar.

It might be relatively quick this time except the gauge needs a 42mm dia hole rather than 40mm so I may have to do a bit of grinding/filing.


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

Looking forward to watching the developments.


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## davril (Sep 17, 2012)

Sounds great.

Will you be selling this on or is it a keeper?


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Will be selling on, it's a shame!

No room in the kitchen for another machine worse luck.


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## Danz0r (May 29, 2020)

Watching very intently.


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## NitJay (May 18, 2020)

Good to see you've got another one in, my original 2011 has gone and now I've got a 2005 in which needs some TLC too, was going to crack her open this weekend (still got my 2003 with the leaky steam valve - not wand and PID for my own use!).

Where do you get the parts from if you don't mind - particularly the larger solenoid valve and the upgraded bolts?

I get standard parts from the espressoshop.co.uk, they are friendly and pricing is good but would be keen to see if I'm missing anything.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

NitJay said:


> Good to see you've got another one in, my original 2011 has gone and now I've got a 2005 in which needs some TLC too, was going to crack her open this weekend (still got my 2003 with the leaky steam valve - not wand and PID for my own use!).
> 
> Where do you get the parts from if you don't mind - particularly the larger solenoid valve and the upgraded bolts?
> 
> I get standard parts from the espressoshop.co.uk, they are friendly and pricing is good but would be keen to see if I'm missing anything.


 I try all the sellers including ebay and amazon and usually go with the best price I can find, taking into consideration time taken to receive items, but I don't have any favourites really.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Cleaned up boiler and head group, stripped and checked OPV, all good.

Will swop solenoid valve now for the larger valve and start to reassemble.

First pic shows items cleaned. The portafilter looks to have had little use too with minimum staining.

Second pic shows the two solenoid valves side by side.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Nice valve, is this from Kitchenaid DB?


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

L&R said:


> Nice valve, is this from Kitchenaid DB?


 No, I picked it up from an individual as a one off worse luck!


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## MartinB (May 8, 2011)

Looking good!


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## Oli986 (Apr 24, 2020)

ratty said:


> I'm fitting an oil filled pressure gauge this time on the front panel as there is apparently less vibration of the needle while it's operating under pressure


 I've just fitted one and it works well the needle stays perfectly still 👍🏻

Didn't realise what a tight squeeze it all was though 😅


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Oli986 said:


> I've just fitted one and it works well the needle stays perfectly still 👍🏻
> 
> Didn't realise what a tight squeeze it all was though 😅


 Yes, you don't want to mess up the hole position!

That machine looks good is it a 2001/2002 model?


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## Oli986 (Apr 24, 2020)

I did mess it up.. took the time setting it out to get it just right, but in trying to position the thing as low as possible (I thought would look better) I had a lapsed moment and somehow forgot about the boiler bolt being there 🤦🏻‍♂️!!!

Anyways.. got away with it just! I had to round the back off the nut to allow it to turn when tightening. Took me alot longer than it should!

And yes it's a 2002, I believe the same as the one you last refurbished 👀


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

@Oli986 which oil-filled gauge did you buy? The one sold on ebay?

By the way, there is a Polish modder who has documented his adventures installing a pressure gauge slightly too low (as you have). He had to install a new bolt into the boiler. Use Google Translate to read it in English. https://gaggiaclassicmods.blogspot.com/2015/05/montaz-manometra-pompy-w-mojej-gaggia.html

Just for the sake of others, it would be really good if you and also @ratty would report on the dial position relative to the left and bottom. Since you can't measure the centre that well anymore, maybe just report to the outer edge of the dial. This would keep others from making the same mistake and double checking their measurements.

I'm patiently waiting on @ratty to note whether it's worth it to go with the oil-filled version.

The stories about the vibrating needle is very sporatic, and I had guessed that some people have it worse because their capillary tube is so much shorter. This is why there are some who report that the typical green-red dry pressure gauge dial is fine while others report that it is vibrating wildly.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

phario said:


> @Oli986 which oil-filled gauge did you buy? The one sold on ebay?
> 
> By the way, there is a Polish modder who has documented his adventures installing a pressure gauge slightly too low (as you have). He had to install a new bolt into the boiler. Use Google Translate to read it in English. https://gaggiaclassicmods.blogspot.com/2015/05/montaz-manometra-pompy-w-mojej-gaggia.html
> 
> I'm patiently waiting on @ratty to note whether it's worth it to go with the oil-filled version.


 Should be together over the weekend, depending on postage of course! (not received gauge yet and sometimes shockwaves shop items arrive on the last date mentioned in the sale, which is next Monday


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## Oli986 (Apr 24, 2020)

Yes it was from ebay (shockwaves shop)

I would say the safest bet is to treat each machine as individual and not assume one set hole position fits all. The back set of the different gauges can also vary.


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Oli986 said:


> I did mess it up.. took the time setting it out to get it just right, but in trying to position the thing as low as possible (I thought would look better) I had a lapsed moment and somehow forgot about the boiler bolt being there !!!
> 
> Anyways.. got away with it just! I had to round the back off the nut to allow it to turn when tightening. Took me alot longer than it should!
> 
> ...


I made the exact mistake you made.....barely had enough room, nearly bolloxed up the whole job. My gauge stem is actually touching the bolt.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/41276-my-classic-pressure-gauge-mod/

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

Oli986 said:


> Yes it was from ebay (shockwaves shop)
> 
> I would say the safest bet is to treat each machine as individual and not assume one set hole position fits all. The back set of the different gauges can also vary.





jj-x-ray said:


> I made the exact mistake you made.....barely had enough room, nearly bolloxed up the whole job. My gauge stem is actually touching the bolt.
> 
> https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/41276-my-classic-pressure-gauge-mod/


 That's sort of what I'm saying. There are actually only 3-4 gauge designs that I've seen in the wild, so knowing safe tolerances for where to drill would be good. At least 3 people have come close to botching it up.

That said, I'm not sure how easy it is to measure this, given the weird geometry. Still, a basic measurement is the distance from the bottom of the case to the top of the boiler bolt. Anybody know this to some degree of accuracy?


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Not sure on the absolute heights in mm but if you look on my thread you can see exactly where I have marked the centre both in x and y relative to other reference points.

The height of my centre is roughly in line between the 'classic gaggia' words of the badge. At this position I'm touching the top of the bolt. I would say to be comfortable you should be at least in line with the top of the 'a' in 'classic' or more.....ie about 5mm higher.

The x position of my centre is in line with the edge of the switch plate cutout and that is exactly the x position of the boiler bolt.

The x position doesn't matter as long as you are clear of the bolt vertically or vice versa.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

That gauge looks really good.

Incidentally I fitted a dimmer for the pump and raised the OPV to ~14bar as no longer needed, and my gauge (no fluid) is quite steady at 9bar now.

So I'm wondering if the vibration is being caused by the OPV valve bouncing open and shut, rather than the pump itself. With the valve permanently shut (ie set to 14bar), I'm assuming the pressure waves from the pump are now being damped by the small air pockets in the boiler, rather than bouncing back off the OPV spring.

Just a theory at this stage.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Ok, back on track now, theory on gauge vibration sounds interesting.

I've descaled all limescale on this machine now (very little to do anyway!)

It;s basically a brand new modded machine!

Boiler and group head descaled and ground flat as required.

Waiting on the oil filled pressure gauge but OPV set at 9.5 bar with my portafilter gauge

New larger solenoid valve fitted.

OPV opened up and descaled.

New Rancilio Sylvia steam wand for improved milk frothing fitted.

All new o rings, seals fitted and lubricated with Molykote 111 (food grade)

Boiler and group head, OPV and Solenoid bolts replaced with new 316 grade stainless steel bolts, lubricated with anti seize paste (food grade)

OPV set at 9.5 bar, as it drops 0.5 bar at the portafilter, the ideal pressure at that point is 9 bar. Used my portafilter gauge for setting as waiting on the oil filled front panel gauge (Hole formed to 42mm - A pain!)

Forgot, new Cafelet Silicone head gasket!


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

@ratty before you put that gauge in, it would be good for you to give us a measurement of your centre position (might be too late at this point) or the outer circle positions.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Ok, bottom of the circle is 38mm from the bottom of the front panel. So 59mm from the centre of the circle.

From the end of the rounded curve at the side of the panel, to the edge of the circle, I just measured 12mm, so 33mm to the centre of the circle.

I do it by eye though, 😀


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

I'd be interested to know how you route the pressure gauge wire. I'm convinced mine is the root cause of my loud pump noise but can't figure out what it's clanging against


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Michael87 said:


> I'd be interested to know how you route the pressure gauge wire. I'm convinced mine is the root cause of my loud pump noise but can't figure out what it's clanging against


 There's a picture of my routing of the pressure gauge wire on the thread, "Refurbishing 2001 Classic," on this forum at post #18.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

First coffee out yesterday.

Needs tightening slightly on the grind, (beans are at end of useful life too!)

Hopefully oil filled gauge will come today and I can finish off the refurb.


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

@ratty Sort of a separate question, but in some of your other threads, you note the preference of the polished steel Gaggia Classics vs. the brushed steel. I think you expressed a preference for the polished version (which seems more rare). Any thoughts at this point?


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

phario said:


> @ratty Sort of a separate question, but in some of your other threads, you note the preference of the polished steel Gaggia Classics vs. the brushed steel. I think you expressed a preference for the polished version (which seems more rare). Any thoughts at this point?


 Mainly I prefer the brushed finish but on one occasion I chose a polished version as the finish was particularly good.

The one negative on the version I'm modding at the moment is there are some light scratches on the front panel.

Whether the original owner thought they would give it a good clean before selling it (to me!) I don't know, but they used an abrasive that has left some light scratches. They are not deep and should be able to be removed using tricks of the trade, found on YouTube videos.

It is outside my remit though, up to the new owner to tackle if they feel necessary.


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Same happened with my chrome version.....terrible scratch marks where someone has attempted to clean it poorly

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Postman has been and no oil filled gauge!

I shouldn't be surprised, had this a few times with the shock wave shop.

Items usually turn up towards the last day of intended delivery notifications, which in this instance was between Thursday to Monday.

Hopefully it's going to arrive Monday!

Pretty poor really for a 'professional' outfit without premises, working through the postal system. I ordered it on Monday June 22nd, so if it comes this Monday 29th, it will have taken 7 days, to travel 15 miles, from Leamington Spa to Bedworth!


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Can I ask about the void space in the gauge tubing?

How are you managing that? Are you leaving it open or are you using a diaphragm seal?

If open, would you not be concerned about the static/stagnant dead space being in contact with the flow?

I see these mods with the gauge low.

Personally, I would thing they would be better high, above the tee-in so that you at least get a free drain back.

Or is void space not an issue?

Also, what about air lock and gascompression in the tubing? Does this cause needle bounce and jitter?

Interesting mod. One of the better ones I've seen


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

I'm trying out the oil filled gauge to see how much it cuts down on the needle vibration.

To be honest its never been a major concern for me but if it helps damping down, I will use oil filled from now on.

Whether air pockets and positioning are a factor in vibration I do not know, and will leave that to others if they wish to experiment in that field.

I'm quite willing to follow proven theory, after peer reviewed results confirmations.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Postman's been and still no gauge!

I've emailed the seller and got this generic reply, it seems it hasn't been updated for a while.

Thank you for your message and we are sorry you have not received your order yet.
We are receiving an unprecedented number of enquiries each day about the whereabouts of packages and want to reassure you that we are posting every day, except Saturdays when the post office is closed.
The postal volumes are very high at the moment and Royal Mail is contending with severe staff shortages in many parts of the sorting and distribution network. It has been reported that they are currently working to clear the backlog of second class post.
Some customers have reported to us that items are having taken around 14 days to be received (UK second class service). We have no information about the delay on international services, but delivery times are expected to be significantly extended.
Please be patient, all items have been posted, and are on their way to you.


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

Interesting. I've seen no change in Royal Mail near my parts, but have seen delays with Hermes. The RM has been really excellent.


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## Dougieboy (Jun 21, 2020)

ratty said:


> Postman's been and still no gauge!
> 
> I've emailed the seller and got this generic reply, it seems it hasn't been updated for a while.
> 
> ...


 You can't help but think some retailers are taking advantage of the current situation. I'm in the Black Country, some parcels are taking 1 day to arrive whilst others seven. 14 days seems a stretch too far


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Dougieboy said:


> You can't help but think some retailers are taking advantage of the current situation. I'm in the Black Country, some parcels are taking 1 day to arrive whilst others seven. 14 days seems a stretch too far


 Agree, two or three items I sent for elsewhere after the gauge order, have arrived already.

I have had this happen from this seller before, in fact I mentioned it in a previous post in this thread, just as I put the order in. The previous times it happened. were pre-lockdown!

He seems to have a monopoly on quite a few coffee items.


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## Dougieboy (Jun 21, 2020)

ratty said:


> Agree, two or three items I sent for elsewhere after the gauge order, have arrived already.
> 
> I have had this happen from this seller before, in fact I mentioned it in a previous post in this thread, just as I put the order in. The previous times it happened. were pre-lockdown!
> 
> He seems to have a monopoly on quite a few coffee items.


 The problem we have when purchasing from EBay, is that the whole feedback system is corrupt. If you leave Negative feedback, they come along and remove it. 😂


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

Dougieboy said:


> You can't help but think some retailers are taking advantage of the current situation. I'm in the Black Country, some parcels are taking 1 day to arrive whilst others seven. 14 days seems a stretch too far


 man do not get me started. below tldr; someone taking the p*ss.

i had one (3rd party on amazon) which to be fair did list a potentially long delivery time (3 weeks) which everybody was doing at the time. nonetheless they marked it as dispatched the very next day, via regular RM, who have been pretty much as normal for me.

a week later, as even with delays i'd have expected it to make the journey from Dorset to London within that time, i asked them whether they had generally been experiencing delays with RM. reply, 'oh sorry, this will be sent out tomorrow'. 'why did you mark it dispatched then?' no reply. a week later i had to get Amazon to chase them to get them to respond, 'oh, there was a delay, if we can't track it down we'll ship another one in 24h'. another 3 days and still no response, i told them to refund it, which they grudgingly did.

Then got the item from Argos, which i picked up from the local Sainsbury the next day.


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## Dougieboy (Jun 21, 2020)

facboy said:


> man do not get me started. below tldr; someone taking the p*ss.
> 
> i had one (3rd party on amazon) which to be fair did list a potentially long delivery time (3 weeks) which everybody was doing at the time. nonetheless they marked it as dispatched the very next day, via regular RM, who have been pretty much as normal for me.
> 
> ...


 I can certainly relate to that. They want your Money, even if they don't have the stick. That was called theft when I was being raised 😂


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Good news friends,

Gauge finally arrived yesterday afternoon.

I will be fitting and posting pics etc, later today.


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

ratty said:


> Good news friends,
> 
> Gauge finally arrived yesterday afternoon.
> 
> I will be fitting and posting pics etc, later today.


 And at last we can have a basis of comparison for this issue of glycerine filled vs. not-glycerine filled! (I'm not being sarcastic).


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## islandlad (Feb 8, 2019)

phario said:


> And at last we can have a basis of comparison for this issue of glycerine filled vs. not-glycerine filled! (I'm not being sarcastic).


 Just to add to this... fitted my non-glycerine gauge and voltage controller to my Classic last week and have zero bounce/vibration.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

islandlad said:


> Just to add to this... fitted my non-glycerine gauge and voltage controller to my Classic last week and have zero bounce/vibration.


 Be great to see a video of yours in action. Also the gauge connection and routing inside the Classic. I must be missing a trick!

I will be posting one of the oil filled one later today, when it's set up and running.


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## islandlad (Feb 8, 2019)

Bog standard connection/routing. Capillary nut just about kisses the boiler even with the panel hole cut out to the extreme right. Will probably file it down once the workshop reopens. Will get a video up next shot.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

islandlad said:


> Bog standard connection/routing. Capillary nut just about kisses the boiler even with the panel hole cut out to the extreme right. Will probably file it down once the workshop reopens. Will get a video up next shot.


 Only difference I can see is you're mounting the gauge on the right hand side instead of the normal left hand side.

A bit of a tight squeeze fitting it above the lettering on the front panel?


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## islandlad (Feb 8, 2019)

ratty said:


> Only difference I can see is you're mounting the gauge on the right hand side instead of the normal left hand side.
> 
> A bit of a tight squeeze fitting it above the lettering on the front panel?


 Mine's the gold version 🤩 so badge is on the left.


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

ratty said:


> Only difference I can see is you're mounting the gauge on the right hand side instead of the normal left hand side.


 I wonder how much 'kissing' the bolt of the boiler also helps. Maybe it doesn't. How much of the vibration is being caused by uneven flow and how much by vibrations in the overall machine?

This is why I find the issue a bit weird to diagnose. Everyone has different definitions of 'rock steady', and few people I think have fitted multiple ones. It makes sense for you to just fit this one as you have done all the others.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Sorry for short video.

I made a longer one with a shot but too big a file and had to find a converter etc. Got pissed off, so just this short one for now!

Slight vibration but less than with no oil in the gauge.

Beer o' clock now, as someone mentioned. 🤣

/monthly_2020_07/v1.mp4.707a769f0498b54d157d36ecdf2712cf.mp4" type="video/mp4">
View attachment v1.mp4


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

islandlad said:


> Bog standard connection/routing. Capillary nut just about kisses the boiler even with the panel hole cut out to the extreme right. Will probably file it down once the workshop reopens. Will get a video up next shot.
> 
> View attachment 42135


 Can i suggest that you at least point your tee UP, (self draining)not down?

Least then you don't have too much dead space for stagnant water to sit.

A diaphragm seal on it wouldn't do any arm either,


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Can i suggest that you at least point your tee UP, (self draining)not down?
> Least then you don't have too much dead space for stagnant water to sit.
> A diaphragm seal on it wouldn't do any arm either,


I doubt there's room to do that with the lid fitted above. I also doubt it would make much difference in the big scheme of things....

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Inside the machine with gauge fitted

Puck in knock box


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

jj-x-ray said:


> I doubt there's room to do that with the lid fitted above. I also doubt it would make much difference in the big scheme of things....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


 Point it sideways then?


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## islandlad (Feb 8, 2019)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Can i suggest that you at least point your tee UP, (self draining)not down?
> 
> Least then you don't have too much dead space for stagnant water to sit.
> 
> A diaphragm seal on it wouldn't do any arm either,


 Not enough space to do that in my machine.

With one end closed, I highly doubt water will leak down the capillary. Reserve the right to eat my words if it ever does


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

When you said 'Puck in knock box' I assumed that you must have knocked your elbow on the knock box, a bit like puckin 'ell. Then I saw the puck in the knock box...

Looks a very neat conversion.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

islandlad said:


> Not enough space to do that in my machine.
> 
> With one end closed, I highly doubt water will leak down the capillary. Reserve the right to eat my words if it ever does


 Aye, you may be right.

I wonder how its done on the Pro machines? Do they take a tapping of the top of the boiler?

That would be a good idea though huh?


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

ratty said:


> Sorry for short video.
> 
> I made a longer one with a shot but too big a file and had to find a converter etc. Got pissed off, so just this short one for now!
> 
> ...


 Try https://streamable.com/ for uploading videos. It does a good job with compression and seems painless.

This is interesting. I would not describe that as 'rock solid' by any means, and I've seen slightly less on some people's installs.

So I guess the key question is: how strongly would you recommend the oil-filled gauges from here over the non-oiled filled ones? Keep in mind that the oil-filled ones are about £10 more expensive (?), have a less typical hole size (42mm), and are somewhat non-reversible (in the sense you can always go from 40mm to 42mm but not the other way around).

More simply, for your next machine, what will you choose?


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

phario said:


> Try https://streamable.com/ for uploading videos. It does a good job with compression and seems painless.
> 
> This is interesting. I would not describe that as 'rock solid' by any means, and I've seen slightly less on some people's installs.
> 
> ...


 Will get on your recommendation for videos, thanks.

I will be using the oil filled ones probably from now on.

It is a serious close up, and looks nowhere near as bad from even a foot away with the naked eye.

I like it!

I also prefer the U shape clamp that holds it in position, but must remember next time to fit it loosely in position before refitting the boiler as it was very fiddly to do afterwards.


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

By the way, when I was looking around for oil-filled ones @FairRecycler had some advice about the install and possibly removing vibrations.



FairRecycler said:


> Installation:
> Prior to installation it is recommended to fill the capillary tube with water to eliminate vibration of the needle. Remove the gauge by holding the brass connector with a 12mm spanner and unscrew the gauge by hand (note some glycerine might leak so try to do it carefully) than place the piggyback under clear water and simply suck on the other and until water comes through. Due to the he capillary action it's not likely to leak while you screw the gauge back carefully to avoid leaking glycerine from the gauge itself.
> Drill the hole first, than remove the OPV and thread this assembly in the machine through the hole (make sure you place the silicon lock ring inside first and thread the assembly through that too) bolt it in place and lock it with the silicone ring. Than you can fine tune the angle with a 12mm spanner. If the needle still vibrates you will need to get rid of any air locks in the system, take off the gauge as described above push in the fitting to plastic bottle, than turn the machine on and the pump too until consistent flow of water comes out the capillary tube. Re assemble.
> Enjoy it.


 I've not asked him about his kit in comparison with shock_waves_shop, but noticed it had a much smaller capillary tube.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

phario said:


> By the way, when I was looking around for oil-filled ones @FairRecycler had some advice about the install and possibly removing vibrations.
> 
> I've not asked him about his kit in comparison with shock_waves_shop, but noticed it had a much smaller capillary tube.


 True but even dearer with P&P. 🤣


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## islandlad (Feb 8, 2019)

phario said:


> By the way, when I was looking around for oil-filled ones @FairRecycler had some advice about the install and possibly removing vibrations.


 I've heard the opposite as air is compressible and able to dampen vibrations while liquids are not and will 'amplify' those vibrations vs air 🤷‍♂️

Not tried a direct comparison though so can't comment further.


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## Oli986 (Apr 24, 2020)

Just as a comparison https://streamable.com/169nxr same gauge less vibration.. its probably just be determined by the individual pump and machine. (Thanks for the vide link Phario)


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## Oli986 (Apr 24, 2020)

🤔 for some reason the link playback is a bit blury


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

islandlad said:


> I've heard the opposite as air is compressible and able to dampen vibrations while liquids are not and will 'amplify' those vibrations vs air 🤷‍♂️
> 
> Not tried a direct comparison though so can't comment further.


 I think there are two case studies of vibration: vibration that occurs due to uneven flow and the vibration that occurs within the needle (these two are of course related). A long capillary tube will hopefully allow the fluid to fully develop into a more steady state.

Damping of vibration of the needle is presumably due to viscous stress ('friction') of the surrounding fluid. Viscosity of glycerol is 1.312 Pa . s which, if I'm reading Wikipedia right, is about 4 orders of magnitude higher than water and 5 orders of magnitude compared to air in some conditions. It might be an interesting homework problem to try and estimate the characteristic vibration in the different materials. But the weird thing here is how variable it all seems to be based on the install and other factors.

I'm not sure where you heard that air is used to dampen vibrations, but I think it depends on context. Air provides less of a medium for free vibrations to develop (because there is no 'friction'), which is why you see water waves more frequently than air waves. But this also means that it can't 'grip' the needle in order to dampen it. You might have heard of it in the scenario of dampening a compression (like a shock confined to a tube).



Oli986 said:


> Just as a comparison https://streamable.com/169nxr same gauge less vibration.. its probably just be determined by the individual pump and machine. (Thanks for the vide link Phario)


 I'm sure we must have asked you before but where did you source your gauge?


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## Oli986 (Apr 24, 2020)

Same as ratty Shockwaves shop ebay


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

Thanks folks. I put in an order for the liquid-filled ones on ebay ("Panel Mount Liquid Filled Pressure Gauge Kit for Gaggia Classic -2015").

OK. Last question to the group (for now).

Would it be a bad idea to get a 40mm hole saw and enlarge it to 42mm via a dremel?

Two reasons:



40mm hole saws are more easy to source.


This gives you a gap for screwups. You'll be able to deal with burrs and other things.


According to a Polish YouTuber, when you use a hole saw on the Gaggia body, you'll typically make a hole +1mm of the saw size. So I have been leaning towards a 40mm+2mm sanding which has less possibility of going wrong. Half the time, people say "just do it" and it's straightforward. But there are a number of horror stories around the forums about screwing up the hole saw cut.

(I realise ratty uses a screw hole cutter).


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## islandlad (Feb 8, 2019)

phario said:


> Thanks folks. I put in an order for the liquid-filled ones on ebay ("Panel Mount Liquid Filled Pressure Gauge Kit for Gaggia Classic -2015").
> 
> OK. Last question to the group (for now).
> 
> ...


 How wide is the lip on the gauge? Maybe wait and measure and see how much safety factor you've got? Can confirm my hole saw added an extra mm.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

I used a cheap version initially of a dremel and then a half round diamond file to open the hole from 40mm to about 41.3mm that the gauge fit in. It wasn't so bad, just don't slip with the dremel on the front panel!

Not sure how much of a burr the 40mm saw will leave but think the dremel will easily cope with that and you will be around the correct size once the burr is remover if it drills initially to 1mm oversize.


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## islandlad (Feb 8, 2019)

phario said:


> I think there are two case studies of vibration: vibration that occurs due to uneven flow and the vibration that occurs within the needle (these two are of course related). A long capillary tube will hopefully allow the fluid to fully develop into a more steady state.
> 
> Damping of vibration of the needle is presumably due to viscous stress ('friction') of the surrounding fluid. Viscosity of glycerol is 1.312 Pa . s which, if I'm reading Wikipedia right, is about 4 orders of magnitude higher than water and 5 orders of magnitude compared to air in some conditions. It might be an interesting homework problem to try and estimate the characteristic vibration in the different materials. But the weird thing here is how variable it all seems to be based on the install and other factors.
> 
> ...


 I would say both are applicable. Needle flutter can indeed and obviously be dampened by oil/glycerin in the gauge housing. The source of the vibrations is however from the bourdon and capillary tube side of the gauge (both of which are not in fluid contact with the needle - it's the mechanical linkage which connects the needle to the bourdon tube). The way I see it, flow is not really applicable to a closed tube, purely because it is closed (unless you consider the minuscule back and forth flow associated with vibrations). But rather, exactly as you put it, "You might have heard of it in the scenario of dampening a compression (*like a shock confined to a tube*)". That is exactly what's happening in the capillary. Air can absorb and 'accommodate' that shock due to its compressibility, water or oil will simply transmit all that shock to the needle. Having said that, yes I have read of cases where capillary tubes have been filled with water without any problems - goes against my line of thinking but it clearly seems to work (unless used with a smooth rotary pump and not a vibration pump, which might make sense). Biggest issues seem to be when water and air coexist in the capillary tube (though usually solved by heating the tube).

No preaching intended


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## MartinB (May 8, 2011)

Thought I'd also wade in as we're talking gauges.

I tried fettling the capillary tubing on my 5 year old shockwaves gauge a couple of weeks ago and ended up snapping the pipe!

Ordered identical item from another supplier (despatched Monday, arrived today) and just fitted. There's pretty much no needle bounce with this configuration, the difference is like night and day to before. My conclusion is that there's a lot of mileage in how the capillary pipe is routed and looped 👍

Video below

https://streamable.com/8ckrql


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

MartinB said:


> My conclusion is that there's a lot of mileage in how the capillary pipe is routed and looped


 Care to share the routing?


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## MartinB (May 8, 2011)

phario said:


> Care to share the routing?


 Will get a pic for you 👍


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## MartinB (May 8, 2011)

phario said:


> Care to share the routing?


 Here you go!


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

MartinB said:


> Here you go!
> 
> View attachment 42222
> 
> ...


 And so in addition to the path you took, what's the 'rule of thumb' for the routing?


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Taken from slightly further away from machine;

https://streamable.com/5ku6zv


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## MartinB (May 8, 2011)

phario said:


> And so in addition to the path you took, what's the 'rule of thumb' for the routing?


 keep a nice curve/bend to the capillary tubing and try to prevent any 90 degree bends. Mine came with the coils already turned, I added one more coil and I was good to go 👍


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## sokoma (May 13, 2020)

Nice thread to follow!


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## Valkyrie88 (May 3, 2020)

Quick question, is it advisable to soak the OPV and brass steam assembly in Cafiza...? I have just soaked the dispersion plate and shower screen and I'm thinking should I do something with these two parts as part of my "full refurb".


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Valkyrie88 said:


> Quick question, is it advisable to soak the OPV and brass steam assembly in Cafiza...? I have just soaked the dispersion plate and shower screen and I'm thinking should I do something with these two parts as part of my "full refurb".
> 
> View attachment 42260


 Personally , i wouldn't

Copper is self sealing via oxides

Valves should either be stripped down and cleaned or left alone until they fail. Soaking them can cause more problems than you started with.

A good clean on the outside and rinse/wash won't do any harm though


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Valkyrie88 said:


> Quick question, is it advisable to soak the OPV and brass steam assembly in Cafiza...? I have just soaked the dispersion plate and shower screen and I'm thinking should I do something with these two parts as part of my "full refurb".


 You can soak the OPV in puly caff after removing the adjustment screw with a 5mm hex key.

Remove the spring and rubber pad as the rubber will start to break down in the cleaner. Also remove the two o rings then you can soak the OPV.

Remove the rubber 0 ring from the steam pipe, and that too can be soaked in puly caff to clean it.

The dispersion plate can turn black in Cafiza or Puly Caff, most people just clean it in hot water and washing up liquid with a scrubbing brush or a soft brass brush.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Machine sold to a forum member that has been following the thread from the start.

Great stuff to keep these Classic's going in top shape.


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## FairRecycler (Sep 26, 2019)

Such a brilliant topic.

I'm really grateful for being mentioned to let me read it through.

Thank you for everyone for the expertise, detailed information, and experiences.

I was about to revise my pressure gauge anyway, but now I decided, I'll do an experiment (on one machine to eliminate the pump and other variables) on routing length water filled / air "filled" capillary tube to find the best practice.

I'm open to any advice and criticism too, in order to get it done ultimately.

I'll definitely open a discussion on it once I get there.

Kind regards

Peter


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

FairRecycler said:


> Such a brilliant topic.
> 
> I'm really grateful for being mentioned to let me read it through.
> 
> ...


 Good news Peter.

Me and a few others will be following your thread and hopefully will be able to add to the discussion.

Meanwhile, I'm on the lookout for another Classic to work on!


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

FairRecycler said:


> Such a brilliant topic.
> 
> I'm really grateful for being mentioned to let me read it through.
> 
> ...


 I think one should look to what works elsewhere when doing these changes. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.

Have a look at the Breville DB set up. It's guage is placed high to encourage free draining and is taken from the valve block which is on the other side of the boiler away from the pump.

There is a bloke on YouTube who tapped into the brass steam valve for the pressure guage and I think this is the best way to do it. I don't like the pump outlet tappings. Too much noise for me.

I would also look to put the guage at the top of the machine so it free drains. And I wouldn't use a coil. To much hang up.

One possible route, is a tapping near on the boiler and use a DC sensor and reading. Not sure if the hysteresis would be problematic though.

The low slung, tee-off-from-the-pump approach is a big no though.

Your thread will be interesting!


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Blue_Cafe said:


> I think one should look to what works elsewhere when doing these changes. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.
> 
> Have a look at the Breville DB set up. It's guage is placed high to encourage free draining and is taken from the valve block which is on the other side of the boiler away from the pump.
> 
> ...


 Have you thought about putting into practice what you preach?

I'm sure many would appreciate a practical demonstration of your ideas!


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

ratty said:


> Have you thought about putting into practice what you preach?
> 
> I'm sure many would appreciate a practical demonstration of your ideas!


 Oh.

Have you got your knickers in a twist because I am suggesting something other than what you did?


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Oh.
> 
> Have you got your knickers in a twist because I am suggesting something other than what you did?


 Not at all Blue Cafe.

I just wonder what exactly you have done yourself?


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

ratty said:


> Not at all Blue Cafe.
> 
> I just wonder what exactly you have done yourself?


 Oh, good. I don't like unessesary conflict..

Nothing

Yet.

I was investigating adding a pressure gauge and my comments are based on that investigation. (and some professional experiences)

I'm keeping my powder dry until I am happy. The Breville DB approach is very interesting.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Oh, good. I don't like unessesary conflict..
> 
> Nothing
> 
> ...


 Great stuff, fair play to you.

Keep up the good work!


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## MartinB (May 8, 2011)

Can't wait to see your mods @Blue_Cafe 👍


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

Blue_Cafe said:


> I think one should look to what works elsewhere when doing these changes. There is no need to reinvent the wheel.
> 
> Have a look at the Breville DB set up. It's guage is placed high to encourage free draining and is taken from the valve block which is on the other side of the boiler away from the pump.
> 
> ...


 You discuss "free draining" but I'm not sure I understand the mechanism. The capillary tube and pressure gauge are not exposed to different pressures (e.g. via an open end). The only open ends in the system occur at the inlet and outlet (water tank and grouphead). So what is driving this free draining?


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

phario said:


> You discuss "free draining" but I'm not sure I understand the mechanism. The capillary tube and pressure gauge are not exposed to different pressures (e.g. via an open end). The only open ends in the system occur at the inlet and outlet (water tank and grouphead). So what is driving this free draining?


 Correct. You are pushing against a dead head so no pressure induced flow will occur once the void space is filled.

There are a number of mechanisms in play in this void. Fluid movement can occur due to vibration, convection, etc. Once full, it's probably not going to move anywhere.

That said, it starts off empty. Over time, I feel, it will slowly fill up, stagnating. From an industrial perspective, it's non hygienic and wouldn't be considered. That stagnant head will contain contamination at some point. You might argue it's minimal, and I wouldn't disagree, but it's there.

At least if the system was free draining, with the gauge being the high point, you wouldn't have this stagnation. I suppose you could tee off before the gauge and flush it.

I think this is why the Breville system doesn't use a capillary tube. It's a free flow/drain approach.

I am not being a smart arse or negative Nelly here btw. I have worked in the process-food industry and this kinda thing is a red flag.

You do you obviously. (This is meant in a friendly manner btw)


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

Blue_Cafe said:


> You do you obviously


 I don't understand why you've been so defensive with anybody who asks you any questions (I see it happened above as well with @ratty).

I don't get your post but let's leave it at that. This thread is not the right place to carry on a discussion, I suspect.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

phario said:


> I don't understand why you've been so defensive with anybody who asks you any questions (I see it happened above as well).
> 
> I don't get your post but let's leave it at that. This thread is not the right place to carry on a discussion, I suspect.


 I'm not being defensive, least I don't think I am.

I am just being careful to respect others in the thread and not come across as preaching.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

The thread was started to gain best information for refurbishing a Gaggia Classic.

The hope was to give newcomers a starting point if they wished to refurbish a Classic and for discussions of best practice between others that were already skilled at refurbishments. Hopefully with a meeting of the two, new, shared and improved knowledge could be achieved.

To get nearly 100 posts of information and questioning of procedure, has to be a big positive, and should help people in the long term as a reference to view, and also as a place for initiating further improvements.

That was my intent from the start. Not to blow my own trumpet on best practice. (In fact I love to learn from others all the time!)

The Gaggia Classic is a Classic, and long may it remain so.


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## Danz0r (May 29, 2020)

I'm the lucky buyer of the machine mentioned here. Ratty has done a great job and I'm really pleased with having something so looked after to play around with.

I do have one query though - after getting my first decent-ish shot with it earlier, I went to froth some milk, following instructions and tutorials online.
However the NOISE of the frother is soooooo loud, it nearly blew my eardrums.

Surely this isn't normal? I must be doing something wrong.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Heh. Steam whistles are loud lol. (Choo Choo!)

It's normal and the sign of a well constructed boiler refurb 👍🏻


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Yes the frother is loud.

As a test put the wand totally under the milk and see if it heats the milk ok.

If so it's just down to practice.


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## Danz0r (May 29, 2020)

No, it wasn't loud... it was quite literally deafening haha.

I've just been googling and sounds like I just had it in the milk too far so hopefully just technique.



> "When she screams, you're in too deep. Back it out a little until you hear the normal 'tsch, tsch, tsch' of air incorporating into the milk."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Valkyrie88 (May 3, 2020)

ratty said:


> The thread was started to gain best information for refurbishing a Gaggia Classic.
> 
> T*he hope was to give newcomers a starting point if they wished to refurbish a Classic and for discussions of best practice *between others that were already skilled at refurbishments. Hopefully with a meeting of the two, new, shared and improved knowledge could be achieved.


 100% @ratty I have read every single post on this thread and as a newcomer performing my very first refurb I must say it is incredibly useful and I cant say how much appreciate that you are taking the time out to take pics, write stuff, answer questions on top of physically working on the machine!

And what i love the most is that you have done it for your 2001 too, which for me kind of shows how different machines can come with their own challenges which you overcome and we the newbies benefit from. Thank you I hope you get your hands on another very soon mate.


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## Dougieboy (Jun 21, 2020)

Do people think the price might come down a bit now the world is moving more? What would we say is a good price for a refurb project in relatively good condition?


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Dougieboy said:


> Do people think the price might come down a bit now the world is moving more? What would we say is a good price for a refurb project in relatively good condition?


 Buy a V2.

You will get a good machine (better than the other models in some regards, for a great price.

New enough to not need much more than a good clean.


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## Dougieboy (Jun 21, 2020)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Buy a V2.
> 
> You will get a good machine (better than the other models in some regards, for a great price.
> 
> New enough to not need much more than a good clean.


 Is that the Sylvia you speak of Blue_cafe? I like prefer the look of these TBF


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Dougieboy said:


> Is that the Sylvia you speak of Blue_cafe? I like prefer the look of these TBF


 Ah, sorry, no.

I meant the Gaggia Classic V2 made from 2015-2018.


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## Dougieboy (Jun 21, 2020)

Blue_Cafe said:


> Ah, sorry, no.
> 
> I meant the Gaggia Classic V2 made from 2015-2018.


 Oh yes, I'm with you now. I like the new red one they're about to release.


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

islandlad said:


> I would say both are applicable. Needle flutter can indeed and obviously be dampened by oil/glycerin in the gauge housing. The source of the vibrations is however from the bourdon and capillary tube side of the gauge (both of which are not in fluid contact with the needle - it's the mechanical linkage which connects the needle to the bourdon tube). The way I see it, flow is not really applicable to a closed tube, purely because it is closed (unless you consider the minuscule back and forth flow associated with vibrations). But rather, exactly as you put it, "You might have heard of it in the scenario of dampening a compression (*like a shock confined to a tube*)". That is exactly what's happening in the capillary. Air can absorb and 'accommodate' that shock due to its compressibility, water or oil will simply transmit all that shock to the needle. Having said that, yes I have read of cases where capillary tubes have been filled with water without any problems - goes against my line of thinking but it clearly seems to work (unless used with a smooth rotary pump and not a vibration pump, which might make sense). Biggest issues seem to be when water and air coexist in the capillary tube (though usually solved by heating the tube).
> 
> No preaching intended


 Hi islandlad. Can you tell us where you sourced your gauge and the capillary tube? Yours has an incredible number of capillary coils. I wonder whether this made the bgigest difference.


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## FairRecycler (Sep 26, 2019)

phario said:


> Hi islandlad. Can you tell us where you sourced your gauge and the capillary tube? Yours has an incredible number of capillary coils. I wonder whether this made the bgigest difference.


 I believe the length of the capillary tube shouldn't be the solution, as my kits assembled with a 10" tube with only 1 loop and in 7-8 cases out of 10 the needle is solid as the hour hand on the clock.


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## islandlad (Feb 8, 2019)

phario said:


> Hi islandlad. Can you tell us where you sourced your gauge and the capillary tube? Yours has an incredible number of capillary coils. I wonder whether this made the bgigest difference.


 Shockwaves on ebay, same as the majority of users on here I suspect.


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

islandlad said:


> Shockwaves on ebay, same as the majority of users on here I suspect.


 So the question here is why he has cheaped out on the number of coils in comparison to before? Or does shockwaves have a particular reason for the design.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

Cost cutting exercise maybe?


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

I have emailed shockwaves via ebay with the following.



> Hi there,
> 
> I recently made an order for two of your pressure gauges. There is quite a lot of discussion of your gauges on the coffeeforums.co.uk forum and in particular, some of us have noted that in recent times, it seems that the design of the gauges you sell have a significantly shortened capillary tube (the number of coils on the one I received is only around 5, but some people have 8, some people have 10+). Would you be able to comment on why this is and what has brought the change in design?
> 
> ...


 Hopefully we will get a response.


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

So the nice thing is that shock_waves_shop provided a very fast and fairly honest response:



> This is currently depending on supply. It is proving very difficult for me to obtain capiliary tube at this time. Hopefully we always supply sufficient for the installation.


 I need to have a think about what to do with my situation because I have only around 5-6 coils, and I believe this makes install really difficult. I may need to contact shock_waves_shop for guidance because I believe it does make it too short to ensure proper functionality. Here is a picture of mine (ignore the arrow). As you can see, there are five coils, and the fifth one would need to be stretched significantly to route the tube in a fashion that allows proper flow.

Look at how long the initial segment (before the coil) and the final segment (after the coil).









Here are a few others.



@Oli986: 17 coils: https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/52816-gaggia-classic-2013-refurb/?tab=comments#comment-752697


@islandlad: 17 coils: https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/52816-gaggia-classic-2013-refurb/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-755304


@MartinB: 9 coils: https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/52816-gaggia-classic-2013-refurb/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-755752


@jj-x-ray: 9 coils: https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/41276-my-classic-pressure-gauge-mod/


@ratty 5 coils but very long initial segment: https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/52816-gaggia-classic-2013-refurb/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-755367


Looking at other people's tubes, I don't see how it's going to work in my case. I will need to stretch so that 3 coils will remain after I stretch the initial segment and final segment.


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## FairRecycler (Sep 26, 2019)

Hi Everyone,

I just made a topic to discuss what we know, what we don't, what we think - and what experiences we had so far - on the pressure gauges.

Peter

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/53171-pressure-gauge-discussion-experiment-improvement/?do=embed


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

Michael87 said:


> That gauge looks really good.
> 
> Incidentally I fitted a dimmer for the pump and raised the OPV to ~14bar as no longer needed, and my gauge (no fluid) is quite steady at 9bar now.
> 
> ...


 I like this theory.


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## phario (May 7, 2017)

Michael87 said:


> That gauge looks really good.
> 
> Incidentally I fitted a dimmer for the pump and raised the OPV to ~14bar as no longer needed, and my gauge (no fluid) is quite steady at 9bar now.
> 
> ...


 So one way to think about this is to consider the rate that this is all happening.

My understanding is that the needle flutter is happening at a much higher frequency than any dynamics (the "bouncing open and shut") that is occurring in the OPV (these flutters are the result of resonant interactions). Any movement of the OPV is very slow. In a related thread I've given some literature from the area of noise within fridges that indicate that the key aspect to examine is the formation of bubbles within the flow. It's likely that the dimmer changes the flow characteristics and hence these bubbles.

Basically, the pump vibration is happening at a much higher frequency than any change in the OPV. I don't think the OPV operation is the issue. That's of course not to say that pressure isn't involved in all this, but that I would be surprised if it has anything to do with the mechanical properties of the OPV itself.

This is really a poor testing bed to understand this phenomenon. What you really want is to do the experiment with the minimal components involved until you can replicate the phenomenon and understand the main contributor.


----------

