# Which grinder ?



## brun

im totally new to owning an espresso machine, but within a month of ownership its become very obvious a grinder is a must have

now at the moment im paying off some debts, so i cant splash out, ill just have to keep using pre ground until April 5th, the day when all my xmas' come at once and im finally debt free for the first time in about 10 years, to celebrate this moment ive always said id treat myself to something, and as me and the mrs are yet to move in together, a big plasma tv isnt on the cards but a nice grinder fits the bill

at first i was going to get a hand grinder, but in reality it would have been too much effort for me to stick with, though at most i make 2 doubles per day, usually 1, sometimes none, so im not a heavy user, electric is the only way to go

id settled on an MC2 but that was because it wasnt crazy money and i see a lot of people seem to use them, i know very very little about grinders, being new to all this, however, ive got £100 stuffed away from xmas money and selling a few things, so in reality an MC2 is only costing me £40-£50 and that isnt really celebrating my lack of debt, what im wondering is, as a newb, would i benefit from something like a Mahlkonig Vario ?

its a lot of money, way more than i want to spend, but if its a solid product, is reliable, its something i can take with me when we move in together, and its unlikely ill be able to afford something of that price for some time as ill be saving for a house, would i notice the difference between an MC2 and the Mahlkonig Vario ?

is it total overkill for someone like me ?


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## maarten_booij

Hi Brun! May I ask what espresso machine you use?


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## Spazbarista

You'll get good results from the MC2, and the build quality is pretty good. You'll not get better for the money, but try and find a used one. Danielowen had mine for £55, and there are usually a few in sale here. You'll probably get your money back in a couple of years on a used one if you decide to upgrade


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## maarten_booij

Sorry, just saw your other post, a Gaggia Classic. Personally I am very happy with the Iberital MC2, but the first thing that will be upgraded is the grinder if I'm honest. Since a grinder is very important, I wouldn't say it's overkill. Before you go for the Vario, also look at the Rancilio Rocky


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## robmx

I'm more or less in the same boat, even down to the amount of times I use the machine a day, so will watch this thread with interest. It'd be quite easy for me to get an Mc2, but my main issue, if I'm honest, is it doesn't look special enough, it looks awful and I quite like things that look nice and the mc2 doesn't.

I was looking at the cheaper ascaso grinders, they look a lot better, seem to do the same sort of thing (I've even read they have the same guts) and don't cost much more. But then I'd like settings so I can possibly grind for brewed coffee at work, which these two don't do.

Decisions, decisions....


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## Spazbarista

Have a look at the grinder reviews on Bella Barista. The cheaper Ascaso comes out very badly.


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## Ian_G

You can see a review of 4 grinders here http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/news/coffee-grinder-review.asp In my opinion the better the grinder, the greater is the satisfaction with the coffee.


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## FDC

That's a really good point about the MC2 not being the bonniest thing in the world and, having just posted a reply a few minutes ago saying I was just going to order one, I am now swithering! I have an Elektra Micro Casa which looks the business. How would MC2 look next to it I now ask myself? Given outlay on Elektra last week and imminent ski holiday, the MC2 is very appealing given cost and strong reviews but now I wonder whether to go for something which will sit better next to copper and brass Elektra. How it all looks is an important thing to consider.

Head about to do a scene from a David Cronenberg film!


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## brun

guys i dont really care what it looks like, all i care about is features, build quality, etc etc

i really like the look of the Vario grinding straight into the PF but i guess you can do that with any grinder ?


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## stavros

The Iberital MC2 is a perfectly decent grinder. Adjustable to a nth degree and fantastic value. I never had a problem with its performance I recently upgraded to the Vario because I wanted to grind for aeropress and drip too. I love my Vario and I do wish I had bought it first time now. That said, if I only drank espresso I'm pretty sure I'd still have my MC2 (though I reckon I'd be casting flirtatious glances at the Eureka Mignon, but that's another story!)


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## Spazbarista

There are better grinders out there than the MC2, but they cost a lot more.

The major downside if the MC2 is that it is an absolutely pain in the arse to change between grind settings for different brew methods. In fact, most people end up with a second cheap grinder for filter coffee.

If cash flow isn't good, get the mc2. If you've got the dosh and you reckon you'll stick with coffee for a while get something better.

I reckon you'd get a fair return on selling an MC2 (or a Eureka Mignon), but I'm not sure about the Vario. They are a bit more complicated and plasticky I believe, and long term durability is still unknown.


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## brun

Once its around espresso settings that's were it will stay


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## brun

Where sells the eureka ?


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## Spazbarista

Bella Barista do, but iirc Londinium were offering a discount for forum users to bring it down to £250.


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## brun

So is the vario not worth splashing out for ?


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## Spazbarista

I don't know I've not used one... my only hesitation would be that from what I have heard it has quite a bit more plastic involved. I'm sure someone here will have one and be able to advise, I can't.


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## fatboyslim

If the Vario's construction is similar to the Preciso (they look almost identical body-wise), it does indeed have a plastic shell but it is extremely solid and doesn't feel plasticy at all.

Unless you are mad about dose control, get a preciso


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## garydyke1

I just need a Robur-E to fall off the back of lorry


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## brun

The Rancilio Rocky looks good, is it ?


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## ripley

Hi Brun

I'm in the same situation as you having recently got the classic. Originally I was going to get the rocky - now I'm not sure. Last week I was going to get a hand grinder to see me though until I made up my mind, but figure the thirty odd quid could go towards the electric. All I'm certain of right now is that I don't want anything as a stop gap and I'm trying desperately not to dust off the credit card and take the plunge, preferring to save up for this purchase.

The coffee crew have some good vids on you tube specifically for choosing grinders - have a look and see if it helps sway you in a direction.

It's in three parts






cheers


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## MikeHag

If you're unsure whether you want to spend the extra, don't. When you really want a good grinder you'll know, and nobody will stop you!


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## Sam__G

My two cents is that although the grind quality is pretty great (really actually good, equalling or bettering many decent commercial grinders In my experience) its build quality is absolutely naff. I'm used to it now but it was really not confidence inspiring when it first arrived. On the other hand, its a good size for domestic use and looks better than you would think from the pictures. On the whole its benefits (price and grind quality) outweigh its downsides (build quality) for me...


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## brun

Which are you talking about Sam


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## Sam__G

Haha sorry, the MC2


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## brun

MikeHag said:


> If you're unsure whether you want to spend the extra, don't. When you really want a good grinder you'll know, and nobody will stop you!


I don't really wanna buy twice though if I can avoid it


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## fatboyslim

brun said:


> I don't really wanna buy twice though if I can avoid it


I decided to make an investment on my first grinder rather than going for an entry level espresso grinder.

Don't regret it one bit.

If you choose to get a Preciso or Vario or Eureka, it will continue to provide sufficient consistency long after you've upgraded your Classic.

Long term investment is my advice, speaking from experience.


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## garydyke1

Buy cheap = buy twice


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## onemac

I can certainly see the advantages of buying once but how many of us bought our ideal car first time out? Precious few I imagine.

From my point of view I went for the MC2 knowing it wasn't the best looking, or had the best build quality and it was going to be useless for swapping between espresso and cafetiere mode but the one thing all the reviews stated was consistent and good grind quality. SWMBO had a fit when the bill came in given the expense so far but a couple of days not speaking did us both good. My plan is to use the MC2 for a while and order something like the Preciso - I don't mind losing a few quid but it's an important step to have a decent grinder and the money is just not there at the moment. There is so much I still need - cups, shot glasses, knockbox, thermometer, wand upgrade - I feel that spending less on a grinder at the moment may allow these purchases without costing my marriage.......

Al


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## Marky_p

What would recommend as the best grinder with a budget of about £200?


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## Marky_p

Which is better also. Doser or Doserless?


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## fatboyslim

Doser - if you make a lot of shots and get through a lot of coffee daily (i.e. not a home user)

Doserless - grind straight into portafilter or scales and only grind enough for your shot to ensure coffee freshness.

Best grinder under £200 for straight espresso is MC2 or Ascaso i-mini.

For brewed and espresso I think its the Baratza Virtuoso (easy adjustments).


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## brun

I think the rocky might be the way to go but could do with a few real world opinions. Gail on YouTube rates it though


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## brun

Anyone use the rocky on here ?


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## DonRJ

Save a bit more and get a Mazzer mini or a Compak K3 touch which looks good value here http://www.coffeeclassicsdirect.co.uk/compak-k3-touch-coffee-grinder-286-p.asp

Personally, I would not have a Rocky due to the stepped adjustment


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## brun

what does stepped adjustment mean ?


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## Earlepap

The grind is adjusted in fixed increments.


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## MikeHag

When a grinder is stepless it means you can adjust the grind fluidly... there are no discrete grind settings such as 1, 2, 3, etc. There is just a continuous range and you can set it anywhere on that range. Stepped grinders are arguably not as good for espresso because sometimes, for example, setting 2 might to too fine and setting 3 might be too coarse, so you would want 2.5 but the grinder doesn't allow it.


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## brun

this is a minefield !!!

the Vario is the absolute max ill go to, and if im honest i dont really want to spend that much on a grinder, the MC2 is highly regarded for the price but as im attempting to treat myself i thought id spend a little more and hopefully get something better, so about the £250 mark i thought, id NEVER spend that normally, so i thought id get the Rocky, everything id seen about it looked good, it looks nice, seems very reliable etc, spot on i thought, and now i learn about stepped and stepless lol

aaaarrrrggghhhhh


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## lookseehear

The vario would be a great choice if you can stretch to that, otherwise check out the Baratza virtuoso preciso which is similar but doesn't have the lcd screen which the vario has and is therefore a bit cheaper.

I think the rocky is overpriced compared to something like the standard virtuoso which is £100 cheaper.


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## oldman

Surely the Eureka Mignon is the best size+quality+stepped grinder in the £250/260 bracket?


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## robmx

That Compak K3 Touch looks pretty good for the money. I think I've just decided which grinder I want to save for....


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## xiuxiuejar

Don't get the Rocky as you can find machines as good for a lot less. If you were to go for the Rocky - get the Mazzer instead.

Although stepless are better for espresso, it is not the most important thing if you get a good machine. A doser is not necessary either as you are probably not planning on letting your coffee go stale inside the grinder.

There are lost of good grinders on the market for your budget. A lott of people have a lot of opinions but you'll see a lot of repeated suggestions - the MC2, Mazzer etc. With the grinder though, get the best you can afford (not necessarily the biggerst name!)


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## brun

if im spending £320 it seems silly not to get the Vario, what would be the reason to get the Preciso ?

i was hoping a grinder for £2-£260 would be good enough, are the steps on the Rocky not fine enough then ?

which Mazzer ?......none that ive seen are anywhere near the Rocky price


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## garydyke1

Have you seen this http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?5194-For-sale-MAZZER-Mini-Electronic-%28A%29&p=29209#post29209

Id be inclined to offer less than the asking price, worth a go....


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## xiuxiuejar

The Rocky is fine but nothing more. The settings are okay and for most people, steps are not a problem but what happens if you have a coffee that needs to be set at set 8.5 to get the best out of it? A stepless grinder will allow you to be exact in your settings. There is no doubt that the Rocky (and the Gaggia MDF for that matter) is good enough and will grind fine enough but it is at least £100 overpriced. I have one which was given to me by a family member and it's fine.

Ultimately, the difference between the Mazzer mini and Super Jolly (both of which are fine machines) is the size of the burrs. I even know an Italian friend of mine who has replaced the small burrs in his mini with adapted larger burrs from the Super Jolly and produces wonderful results.

Similarly, all the Baratza products are fine products as are the Iberitals.

If you have a good retailer near you, do what I did, take your coffee down and ask them to grind it in the machines so you can see. A good business will do this for you and even make you a coffee with it.

In the end, it's just a matter of personal choice


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## chimpsinties

I wonder how well that Vario can dose to exact weight. It looks really good, I've never seen that before. I always assumed I'd upgrade to the Presico but now...


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## xiuxiuejar

I really don't know if this helps (I haven't seen it). You Tube is full of these reviews!

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=baratza+vario+preciso&oq=baratza+vario+preciso&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=190l8148l0l8406l18l18l0l14l14l1l269l789l0.3.1l4l0


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## Calidore

I have a rocky doserless. I've found it's pretty good. As with a lot of doserless grinders it tends to make the coffee clump (that is, some of it comes out stuck together by static, like little lumps of grinds). Real perfectionists don't like this, but you can easily break up the clumps with a toothpick if you're fussy, but mostly they just disappear when you tamp. The coffee comes out a bit more on one side of the chute than the other, and really oily beans on a fine grind can clog it up from time to time, but I guess that's true of every grinder. It's very solidly built, heavy, stable, and pretty consistent in grind. Online you'll find people worrying over the zero point (where the burrs actually touch) and that it doesn't actually coincide with the zero mark on the scale. Mine does. To get a really good espresso grind I have to take it pretty close to the limit on some beans (1 or 2, and at this point you can sometimes hear a little sign that the burrs are getting too close for comfort), but whenever I've made bad coffee it's been my fault not Rocky's. So I'd give it a thumbs up. Had it about two years.


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## chimpsinties

My Virtuoso clumps like that when it's grinding really fine.










A quick knock on the counter or stir with a pin sorts it out no problem.


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## fatboyslim

Build quality and adjustability are top notch on the Preciso.

Its extremely easy to change between espresso grind and aeropress grind and back again.

Tuning in the micro adjustment slider for espresso takes skill though but you get used to it.

I developed a small dosing chute for my Preciso to grind straight onto my scales.

Also Baratza customer service is legendary.

EDIT: Preciso doesn't clump anywhere near as bad as that pic from Chimp


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## brun

is the Vario actually a Baratza product ?


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## fatboyslim

Baratza Vario seems to be the North American name.

The Baratza Vario is sold as the Mahlkönig VARIO Home within the EU. They are the same grinder, except for voltage requirements. However, Mahlkönig also has its "own" Vario -- the Mahlkönig K30 Vario, which is designed as a "HORECA" (HOtel-REstaurant-CAfé) grinder.

I believe Mahlkonig designed and produce the burrs and they are sold under the North American name Baratza except in the EU where they have the Mahlkonig name. Same spec though.


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## chimpsinties

Look at this video of the Vario @ 2:30min






You can see that it clumps about as much as my Virtuoso does. I wonder if it's a bit to do with grinding directly into the PF because it doesn't have as far to fall and break up?


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## brun

The vario and preciso seem to be pretty much the same price, is their any reason to choose the preciso


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## chimpsinties

I can't see any reason not to go for the Vario. It sounds spot on.

Read this review: http://www.coffeecrew.com/gear/448-we-review-the-baratza-vario-a-coffee-grinder-for-the-ages

I know it's now on my shopping list


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## oldman

But then there is also this review: http://theotherblackstuff.ie/machines/review-mahlkonig-vario-grinder/


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## chimpsinties

That's a very honest review but I also think that guy had VARY high standards. His only issues really were slight clumping and it not necessarily returning to the "exact" setting after changing it from one extreme to the other. I still think it does a brilliant job for the money. Especially as it's only a tiny bit more expensive than the Presico


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## fatboyslim

The Vario has flat burrs that work very well but from the detailed coffee geek review, the Preciso has very fancy conical burrs which apparently never go blunt.

The grind quality from the conical burrs of the Preciso are suppose to be superior to the flat burrs of the vario and even rival some commercial grade grinders.

This is all in the Coffee Geek review which was the deciding factor for me.

Read all of this

http://coffeegeek.com/proreviews/quickshot/baratzavirtuosopreciso/details


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## chimpsinties

Ahh but they're ceramic flat burrs which should stay sharp for the life of the machine for "most" home users.


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## brun

It seems to me that elsewhere in the world the vario and preciso are far further apart on price, and the preciso should actually retail here around the 250 mark, the vario costs around what it should


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## xiuxiuejar

brun said:


> It seems to me that elsewhere in the world the vario and preciso are far further apart on price, and the preciso should actually retail here around the 250 mark, the vario costs around what it should


Working all around Europe, I can confirm that there are some very competitive prices in the UK - probably caused by the troubles the euro has had for the last 5 or 6 years. For example, the Gaggia CLassic in the UK is ab absolute steal and probably over 100 euros cheaper than Europe and 100 dollars cheaper than the US. The Barrazzas are also about 50-70 euros cheaper in the UK and much cheaper than the US, and the Vario is very expensive outside the UK. Once you get past these 'prosumer' models into the higher level machines, prices are much more simillar.

I have to stress that this is my opinion form what I have seen (I'm always looking) and not done with any scientific methods.


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## brun

Well just looking at the rrp figures, they should be about 100 quid apart yet they sell for about 5 quid difference


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## chimpsinties

It's probably due to a lack of distributors meaning that they can basically charge what they like. Competition drives the prices down. That doesn't really answer why it's so much cheaper here than in Europe


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## chimpsinties

In reply to your previous post about them being much further apart in price elsewhere.

Do you think that you're getting a bargain with the Vario or getting ripped off with the Presico?

I like the conical burr set in the Presico but I also really like the cramic burrs in the Vario. If only they'd made a conical ceramic burr set in the Vario


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## xiuxiuejar

It's definitely to do with the strength of the euro. When I started working in Europe 15 years ago, Spain and Italy were dirt cheap and when I came home, I found the UK unbelieveably expensive for many things. But in the last 10 years, since the euro, the UK has been becoming relatively cheaper every year. Put that together with the buying power of British supermarkets and large retailers and the efficiency of British internet shops, we now have some fantastic bargains.


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## brun

so are we agreed, funds allowing, get the Vario, as long as the price doesnt fluctuate in the next month or two

I may actually use it for more than espresso, press at home maybe once in a blue moon, and we use filter at work every day so i might convert everyone to beans and i can grind em before i come to work in the morning


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## MikeHag

I haven't followed this thread but just to throw this in the mix, have you considered something like a second hand mazzer? Considering they are the workhorses of countless coffeeshops around the world and they are within your budget, I'd have thought it would be a natural choice. Not sure how its features compare with the vario, or what your requirements are, but for espresso it's a grinder that you won't need to upgrade for years to come. But if you're after something you can use to switch between epresso and filter, I'd ignore me.


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## garydyke1

garydyke1 said:


> Have you seen this http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?5194-For-sale-MAZZER-Mini-Electronic-%28A%29&p=29209#post29209
> 
> Id be inclined to offer less than the asking price, worth a go....


ahem......


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## brun

id really rather have something new, and im not comfortable with sending £300+ to someone i dont know online, ive been done with card fraud twice in the last few years and as such im pretty careful with what i do these days


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## xiuxiuejar

Apart from fraud and all those things, you have to remember that grinders are work horses and the warranty may be a very handy thing - especially when spending so much money. You don't know what people may put through a grinder, how it's been treated, what modifications may have been made. If you don't know the seller, it's always a risk.


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## MikeHag

Yep, always a risk, but if I can get a £550 grinder for £150 and I have the security of paypal's Buyer Protection policy then I'm happy


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## brun

he wants £370 for it though ? not £150


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## garydyke1

brun said:


> he wants £370 for it though ? not £150


You can usually find a bargain Mazzer Super jolly on ebay , just a matter of waiting


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## brun

ill keep an eye out in the mean time then, but are they not all doser models ?

id waste a ton of beans/ground with a doser, i simply dont drink enough


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## MikeHag

Don't know what you mean, brun. Why would a doser model mean more waste? I don't waste any and mine is a super jolly doser model. Do you mean retention of grinds? I don't see that as a big problem. Just a few beans every morning clears out the old grinds from the tunnel between the burrs and the dosing chamber. I imagine even in doserless ones you're going to still have retention as there is usually still a tunnel from the burrs to the chute.

Sorry - not trying to confuse you but it sounds to me like your view of doser grinders is a little bit off the mark. Yes, doserless may have some advantages, but there are also disadvantages (often more clumping leading to poor distribution in the basket). Reduction of waste is not one of the advantages of going doserless (IMHO as always).


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## xiuxiuejar

I agree with MikeHag, dosers are in many ways, a waste because at home they should never be used 'properly' unless you want stale coffee. But there is little difference between the 'waste' (or grind retention) doser and doserless when you grind fresh for a shot. In fact, sometimes a doser allows you to decant fine coffee grinds into the pf evenly and without the clumping many people experience. I have 4 grinders and find that my supposedly 'inferior' doser, step grinder actually allows me to make good shots quickly and consistantly.

As with everything, it's all swings and roundabouts.


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## brun

thanks, that was the whole purpose of this thread for me to learn whats out there so i can decide, ive only had my machine a month and didnt read a single thing about grinders until recently, so everything about them is new to me, i have no experience at all


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## chimpsinties

All the Baratza's have practically zero retention. It's one of their selling points. Even if you have to throw just a few beans through to clear out old grinds from dosers, they soon add up if you're doing it every day. Maybe one shot per bag wasted or even more.


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## brun

i do like the sound of very little grind retension, the Vario is supposed to be less than 1g


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## Danm

Brun. Thanks for the comment in my thread. Got a question for you. What prices are you seeing for the vario versus the virt. Preciso and where?

From what i can tell the vario is retailing around 330. A1 coffee have the precisio for 260 ( assume these both include Vat)

Cheers


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## ripley

hi Danm

coffeehit have the Preciso for £315 inc VAT and the Vario at £330 inc VAT. Preciso is currently out of stock though.

http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/espresso-and-coffee-grinders/c9

Bella Barista did a review for some grinders and the vario was one of them...I think from a quick scan through they are suggesting that the ceramic burrs of the Vario alter the taste of the coffee

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/compactgrinder1closerlookv3.pdf

cheers


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## brun

That price from A1 is exc vat


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## taxiboy

Just some added information the Preciso burrs are now fitted into new Virtuoso. Don't know if available in europe yet may have to check with Marco they are european dist. in america upgrade kit is available for old Virtuoso ( very tempted lol grinder only 3 months old).


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## brun

Virtuoso is a fair bit cheaper isn't it


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## chimpsinties

Mine was £176 delivered.


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## brun

looking online, the Preciso should be ~£200, not the £300 we are getting charged over here, if it comes down in price id possibly get that as its good enough and would leave me enough to get a cheap one to do filter/press for work

anyone know of anywhere doing the preciso at a proper price ?


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## Danm

Excellent question Brun - this is the annoying part for me. At their 'correct' prices i'd be going for a Preciso but based on where they are currently retailing in the UK for the extra £15, it makes no sense not to get the Vario..... Be interested to see if anyone knows of any retailers....


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## fatboyslim

I think I know why there might be that price difference.

From what I read when looking into Baratza and Mahlkonig, the Baratza brand is distributed mainly to North America while the Mahlkonig brand is based in Europe.

Could it be then that the Preciso isn't produced in Europe has to actually be imported from America, even if they are designed for EU and have UK sockets on.

Mahlkonig Varios are produced in Europe and so importing to UK isn't so expensive?

Just a thought.

But like I said I paid £315 for my preciso and it is worth every penny. The only Vario that interests me is the Vario-W which doses on weight rather than time and costs more.

Still, the preciso has one of the best coarse grinds domestically available with a tiny percentage of fines compared to even the Vario.

Excellent for espresso of course.


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## brun

id have a preciso if the price was better, i begrudge paying over the odds for something especially when the next model up is a few pounds more

the virtuoso is ~£175, i wouldnt pay more than £250 for the preciso, the virtuoso now has the preciso burrs aswell


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## ripley

fatboyslim said:


> Just a thought.
> 
> But like I said I paid £315 for my preciso and it is worth every penny. The only Vario that interests me is the Vario-W which doses on weight rather than time and costs more.
> 
> Still, the preciso has one of the best coarse grinds domestically available with a tiny percentage of fines compared to even the Vario.
> 
> Excellent for espresso of course.


Hi Fatboyslim

Where did you get yours from and did you have any problems with the retailer?

cheers


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## brun

Looking at the rrp we are being overcharged for the preciso, it should be around 260 according to the importer


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## fatboyslim

I got mine from Has bean. I sent them an email before purchasing asking if it has the updated burr plates and the portafilter holder. Got a very quick and informative response.

Bought straight away. Came quickly, well packaged. Would definitely recommend purchasing from them.

Might be worth checking which burr plates the cheaper preciso comes with.


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## ripley

fatboyslim said:


> I got mine from Has bean. I sent them an email before purchasing asking if it has the updated burr plates and the portafilter holder. Got a very quick and informative response.
> 
> Bought straight away. Came quickly, well packaged. Would definitely recommend purchasing from them.
> 
> Might be worth checking which burr plates the cheaper preciso comes with.


Thanks Fatboyslim its the preciso I'm after so will definitely check them out.

cheers


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## ripley

brun said:


> Looking at the rrp we are being overcharged for the preciso, it should be around 260 according to the importer


Hi brun,

I know but figure there's not much I can do about it as most of the retailers are at the same price point. From reading boards around the globe it seems we in the UK are over charged on a lot of coffee gear - it does suck I agree. I got the classic though at a great price point off Amazon which has now increased the price to £195. I suppose the saving will go on the grinder next month, though Amazon have the Gaggia MDF at £132 which seems not a bad price and I was tempted - especially since the mini mill I got off them Friday is going back for a refund hehe

cheers


----------



## fatboyslim

Ripely I would say the MDF would do fine if you only make a few espressos a day.

You would only get the preciso if you want a fantastic coarse grind for brewed (aeropress, chemex, press) as well as espresso grind, adding easy adjustment in the mix.

I'd happily pass on my tips if you were to get the preciso.


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## ripley

Morning Fatboyslim

Thanks. I make roughly 4 espresso a day during the working week, then more during the weekend when I am off. I really fancy something that will see okay as my coffee drinking evolves. At work I am using the same pre-ground for espresso ( lavazza Tierra ) in my smart cafe mug but intend at some point to grind my own to take to work and get an aeropress or something similar...

I appreciate the offer and I'll take you up on that when the preciso is finally mine....

cheers


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## chimpsinties

ripley said:


> but intend at some point to grind my own to take to work and get an aeropress


You should do this!


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## pbutterworth

If you make the MDF stepless with the PTFE mod, it's pretty impressive. It does need that mod though, as IMHO otherwise the steps for espresso are too large.


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## MikeHag

I don't even use the PTFE tape any more to be honest... I just hold the hopper in place whilst it's grinding. So all the mod entails is removing the two little plastic step guides and their springs, which are not screwed in anyway... just take the hopper off, pick out the two bits, then screw the hopper back on (just making sure you find the point where the burrs touch ... makes a high pitches squealing noise, and then backing off a bit & setting the grinder marker to zero).

It is googleable.


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## fatboyslim

Ex-demo one on ebay here. Might get a bargin if the price doesn't go up too much

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gaggia-MDF-Coffee-Grinder-Slightly-Used-/150741383558?pt=Coffee_Machines_Makers&hash=item2318e2f986#ht_500wt_1156


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## xiuxiuejar

If you go for the MDF, the stepless conversion involves 4 screws, some PTFE tape and about 4 and a half minutes of your time. Even without the mod, it's a reliable machine.


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## robmx

I'm fed up of watching grinders on ebay go for wha I consider to be daft prices, used MDFs in particular, they're on amazon for £132 and they go on ebay for over £100 each and every time. You might as well buy new.


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## ripley

Hmmm

Whats a guy to do.

Originally I wanted a Silvia machine then I saw the classic at more than half the price on Amazon. Opinion is that the Silvia is better than the classic but not two & 1/2 times better.

Question is this - is the preciso twice as good as the MDF?

cheers


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## brun

the grinder seems to be the most important thing, id spend the money on the best grinder


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## chimpsinties

I'd say the ability to be able to both step and have the micro adjustment is worth the money if you're interested in espresso and brewed coffee. If you're just into espresso then it's a bit redundant.

PS. Put it this way I own the Virtuoso but am thinking of upgrading to the Preciso because I think it's worth it


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## brun

i fail to see why anyone would buy a preciso unless the price came down, seems pointless to me when you can have the vario for the same money


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## brun

grinder savings are currently @ £195, im getting there !


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## crowue

Hand grinders take hours and dont really do a good job. Ive seen professional coffee grinders costing over a grand so dont sweat the cost too much : )


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## xiuxiuejar

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brasilia-RR45-commercial-coffee-grinder-burr-grinder-home-shop-use-/190633330184?pt=Coffee_Machines_Makers&hash=item2c62a1c608

What do people think of this?


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## vintagecigarman

Looks good, provided that the price doesn't go through the roof. The same guy has just sold a very nice looking Elektra grinder (a re-badged Macap with giant 75mm burrs) and I had a dabble in the bidding myself, but fell out when the price escalated. It eventually sold for £260 - probably a fair price - but I'd sooner put that amount of money towards a new Anfim.


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## APIII

I'm still new to this, but it seems there isn't a lot of love for the Eureka mignon out there. Why don't people rate it, or is it simply a lack of retailers stocking it?


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## brun

for me, if your spending that kind of money id rather spend a little extra to have the Vario

if im spending over £200 id want something with very little grind retention, something it seems only the Baratza's can manage, im not bothered about the digital display on the Vario but as its the same price as the Preciso then its a no brainer

for me aswell, i think im likely to use it for work ground aswell, meaning ill need to switch from filter to espresso a bit, making the Vario easier


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## brun

cant wait to get my grinder !

i keep thinking, buy an MC2, get crackin with beans, then i think, ive nearly enough for the mignon, get that, but i want the vario, roll on March !


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## APIII

I've been very pleased with the mignon, but then I only grind for espresso. Imagine the vario is much better if you're constantly switching. Grind retention is minimal too.


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## ripley

I will be ordering a preciso next week at some point....out of stock at Coffee hit so will give hasbean a call and see if they have it in stock first. I'm actually not as excited as I thought I'd be- I have this nagging that my money would have been better spent buying that MDF off Amazon for almost £200 quid less, I'll never know for sure but I don't think that the preciso or the vario for that matter would have provided me with such a better "taste sensation" that the extra expense will ever be justified.

Update

well just ordered it off hasbean. It should have the updated burrs since stock was renewed 4 weeks ago. Forked out for special delivery before 1 pm so hopefully it should be here tomorrow. Gives me the weekend to play with it.


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## brun

whats the grind retention like on the mignon ?

ripley, can i ask why your getting the preciso ?........the vario is about a tenner more


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## fatboyslim

ripley you may want to think about doing the fatboyslim custom preciso mod as seen below.

This *significantly* reduces clumping, which is minimal anyway.










Also when you first get it, grind a few beans at the coarsest setting before dialing down.

As a ball park I do most espresso at macro 8-9 and aeropress around 14-19 (massive range I know) and french press around 29.

Best of luck.


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## vintagecigarman

Wow! If that's 'significantly reduced' from 'minimal clumping' I take back every complaint I have ever made about my Mini-e. Compare to that it gives micro-infinitesimal clumping!


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## garydyke1

Agreed, is any of that grind not clumped?

Ive had to modify my Mini-e, now I get 80% less clumping. Ill get round to posting the detail one day


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## ripley

brun said:


> whats the grind retention like on the mignon ?
> 
> ripley, can i ask why your getting the preciso ?........the vario is about a tenner more


Hi Brun

Price on this was never much of an issue for me, the reviews I have read on the Preciso have left me feeling more positive and more certain I was buying a machine that coffeegeek say is "top in it's class".

The coffeegeek review swayed me and the Bella review on the Vario clinched it.

cheers


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## ripley

fatboyslim said:


> ripley you may want to think about doing the fatboyslim custom preciso mod as seen below.
> 
> This *significantly* reduces clumping, which is minimal anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also when you first get it, grind a few beans at the coarsest setting before dialing down.
> 
> As a ball park I do most espresso at macro 8-9 and aeropress around 14-19 (massive range I know) and french press around 29.
> 
> Best of luck.


Thanks for the advice Fatboyslim. Early finish tomorrow at 3pm and a free weekend for plenty of trial and error. I'm actually quite looking forward to it now and hope it isn't too frustrating dialling it in....I'll let you know how I get on and thanks again for the tip )


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## pendragoncs

ripley said:


> I will be ordering a preciso next week at some point....out of stock at Coffee hit so will give hasbean a call and see if they have it in stock first. I'm actually not as excited as I thought I'd be- I have this nagging that my money would have been better spent buying that MDF off Amazon for almost £200 quid less, I'll never know for sure but I don't think that the preciso or the vario for that matter would have provided me with such a better "taste sensation" that the extra expense will ever be justified.
> 
> Update
> 
> well just ordered it off hasbean. It should have the updated burrs since stock was renewed 4 weeks ago. Forked out for special delivery before 1 pm so hopefully it should be here tomorrow. Gives me the weekend to play with it.


Just a tip, sign up for the coffee 101 emails from HasBean they send 1 daily (about 10 i think) and in one of the latter ones they normally include a discount code (mines 5%) I've used mine loads and for equipment aswell.


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## brun

so you believe the preciso to produce the best grind ?

id imagine the vario wouldnt be that far behind if thats the case, im sure were splitting hairs, the rrp is around £100 more on the vario than the preciso, surely thats not just for the display


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## AlIam

In the US the preciso sells for around $300 & the vario for $450. They are both about £300 over here. If I lived in America, I'd have got the preciso for sure. I'm unclear why you think the preciso is a better grinder than the vario. Baratza don't.


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## fatboyslim

vintagecigarman said:


> Wow! If that's 'significantly reduced' from 'minimal clumping' I take back every complaint I have ever made about my Mini-e. Compare to that it gives micro-infinitesimal clumping!


 I think humidity was against me that day. Usually a bit better than that. Also thanks for pointing out how spending more money gets you a better grind...









Also I've said this before but I think if the preciso could be made and sold under the Mahlkonig name it would retail cheaper than it does currently. The preciso has to be imported which is why I *think* it costs as much as it does.


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## ripley

brun said:


> so you believe the preciso to produce the best grind ?
> 
> id imagine the vario wouldnt be that far behind if thats the case, im sure were splitting hairs, the rrp is around £100 more on the vario than the preciso, surely thats not just for the display


Hi Brun,

I don't actually think there is much between them so had to rely on the reviews, views and experiences of others ( including our own fatboyslim) and make up my mind based on that reading.

From the coffee geek review -

"Fortunately, the Preciso can do a very uniform grind, with a distinct lack of fines across its grinding range. In fact, the Preciso even beats the Vario at coarser grinds"

"In truth, the Preciso offers the same kind of fines control that $1500, $2000 high end commercial grinders provide, and then some"

"During the course of testing this grinder, I found myself getting even more excited about the Baratza Virtuoso Preciso than I was about the Vario grinder from the same company. Why? In two words, particle sizes. In three words? Particle sizes and speed. In four words? Particle sizes, speed and adjustability."

"Honestly, if this grinder had digital timers and controls, I'd advise Baratza to just drop the Vario and keep this model. It is that good."

"The Baratza Virtuoso Preciso grinder sets a new standard for grind speed, particle size, fines (or lack thereof), grinding range, and the amount of fine tuning you can apply to the grind. It truly is a "do it all" grinder that can replace most espresso-specific grinders under $1000, and indeed, any other grinder (save for its big brother, the Vario) designed for multi-use grinding under $500."

Then I read the negatives about the Vario on this review.

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/compactgrinder1closerlookv3.pdf

I'm happy with my choice and I'm sure you will be also.

Cheers


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## APIII

brun said:


> whats the grind retention like on the mignon ?


Not enough for it to be an issue for me. Maybe a gram or less from sweeping the chute. Tbh, it wasn't at the top of my list of requirements for a grinder, but that's just me


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## fatboyslim

Wow that bella barista review of the Vario is brutal in regards to espresso grind, grind adjustment and assembly construction/material.

As a comparison, the preciso looks to be made of similar material but has a totally different adjustment mechanism that was highly praised by coffee geek.

The espresso grind is also fantastic on the preciso due to the extremely small number of fines and the extra set of blades on the bottom of the burr plates.

As Brun has stated numerous times, the Preciso is overpriced in the UK. But honestly, I don't care!

I'd buy it again.


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## brun

1g isnt that bad really i guess


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## brun

slim, would you buy it over a Vario ?

does the Preciso come with the PF holder/bin thingy


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## brun




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## fatboyslim

Yes I would Brun but having never used a Vario I can't make a fair comparison, I can only tell you my opinion of the Precio. But I am perfectly content with it.

I'd love to do a head to head comparison if anyone wants to come over to mine with their Vario.

The only downside to the Preciso is that a tiny layer of coffee forms just below the burr plates and just above the grind paddles when grinding very fine and using very fresh beans (wasn't an issue before I got VST baskets when my espresso grind was coarser).

I'm going to mod the burr plates so this doesn't happen then it will be a pretty faultless entry level espresso grinder (if you don't count the pretty useless timer knob on the side).

Brun why don't you contact Steve at Has Bean since he sells both machines, and ask for his opinion.


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## brun

he said himself he would choose the Vario


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## ripley

Well the Grinder arrived this morning and is now sitting smack bang in the middle between the classic and the kenwood.

First impression on unpacking is that it feels really solid and reassuringly heavy. Love the chrome finish, the small footprint and I'm so glad I didn't buy the MDF. Not used it yet, or even plugged it in, have a couple of bags of Italian beans from Happy Donkey to play with later and I'll take it from there but so far I'm pretty pleased that it fits in nicely.


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## fatboyslim

You must be about excited as I am as my PID unit just arrived!

Like a kid in a candy store!


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## brun

Get it goin let's hear what you think


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## ripley

brun said:


> Get it goin let's hear what you think


All I can say is WOW.

The instructions aren't too clear on operation for someone that hasn't used a grinder before so after watching some you tube and reading fatboyslims hints and tips I fired it up on a courser setting. Then as it was running moved it down heading toward ten on the macro setting. Settled on a couple of notches below ten and ground 17g out. Too fine, move it up a notch and tried again. A dribble. Moved it up another to just slightly over ten and there it was. 17g tamped to 30lb in just over 25 secs.

I must admit to being sceptical about this grinder stuff having been remarkably disappointed with the mini mill - so much so it went back, but this really is taking coffee to a different level and I'm only using Red Lavazza beans at the moment (1kg bag £10.70 amazon hehe)

Its hard to describe the different tastes you experience, I'm only topping up a double shot with water and a touch of milk but there's caramel, cocoa and it feels thicker, smoother, creamier than anything I've managed to produce previously.

The ground is light, airy and so fluffy, 17g fills the portafilter - I'd have to have used about 25g of pre ground to get it to look so full. It tamps beautifully, hardly any effort, 30llb nails it, one twist and its polished. Its fab.

If the Vario truly is another notch up from this then you are in for a real treat Brun, I'm very happy & very satisfied with my purchase and now very hyper from tasting. I can't wait to try different beans but I also can't wait until you get yours so I can read your thoughts and share in your excitement because this is really taking it to a different level.

cheers


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## brun

I'm not expecting the vario to be much better, if even at all, but the pricing just makes the choice a no brainer for me, if the preciso was about 260 like it should be I'd order that. All the other baratza grinders retail at their rrp exc vat, the preciso retails at rrp inc vat, 20% price difference


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## brun

I'm still tempted by the mignon hmm, i like the fact the Vario has so little grind retention though, and i actually like the idea of steps, if they are fine enough

for those who own a Vario, have you switched much between espresso and filter/press, and back again, does it need dialling in again or not ?....cos that would drive me mad


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## brun

ive decided its either:

Eureka Mignon + cheap £30 grinder for filter at work, or

Vario to do both

both come to the same kinda money, at the moment im still set on a Vario i think


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## stavros

I was a bit worried about this, but I've found the repeatability of the grind settings much better than I expected. For new coffee I dial it in for espresso and leave the micro adjuster where it is and just alter the macro to get my grind for Hario V60 or aeropress. When I come back to espresso I slide the macro back up near the top and away I go. I now run the grinder whenever I make any changes.


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## Wando64

I have been wondering about this for a while.

What is the logic behind running the grinder while making changes?

Also, should it run with beans in the hopper or it doesn't matter as long as it is running?


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## vintagecigarman

The logic is this: when the grinder burrs are stationary there could be whole or large parts of unground beans between them. Tightening up the distance between the burrs can result in a trapped fragment jamming the blades. Doesn't matter if there are any beans in the hopper - it's the fact that the burrs are moving that counts.

My suspicion is that this is much more important in a lightly built grinder than something like a monster Mazzer.

Sent via Tapatalk


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## dougl

Agreed, whilst I was adjusting my Mazzer Mini, I forgot to run the grinder at one point. This resulted in a stall. A quick back off, start grinding and adjust cured that.


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## brun

well, a Vario shall be mine, in the end i had to make a decision, and to be honest i think id have been happy with either of my final choices, but the Vario was available for a good price which im not likely to see anytime soon so i had to bite the bullet and snap it up


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## dougl

I think you will enjoy it lots. Hopefully you won't get severe upgraditis like I did, I should have just gone full steam ahead right at the beginning! Now I'm lusting after a Kony (I'm actually not serious). The new Mini E A-type with electronic Robur controls is lovely. Really. It is very expensive new though.


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## Fran

Where did you find it for a good price, brun? I'm in the market...


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## brun

ive snatched it away from dougl


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## dougl

brun said:


> ive snatched it away from dougl


Yes and as I said before, I think you'll be very happy with it. I think what made me unhappy was the fact that it wasn't built like an Soviet Block tank, which is what I really wanted. The Mazzer almost gets there, although I'm sure the ground retention is worse.

For what it's worth Brun, don't pay any attention to the videos for adjusting the Vario that you see on SCG, the Mahlkonig ones have apparently ironed out all of the nitpicky problems that happened on the Baratzas (eg the grind adjusters slipped out of adjustment). In fact the Euro Mahlkoning doesn't even come with that 2mm Allen key and comes with a foil sticker over that hole... (warranty void if removed). I have given it a good clean with a damp cloth, removed the upper burr carrier and vacuumed/brushed any grounds out - it looked brand new going back into the original plastic bags before being packed in the original styrofoam etc etc. Also make sure that you get a non-pressurised basket for the Gaggia if you don't have one already. Otherwise the Vario will be grinding much too fine for you and you'll choke the Gaggia. You can tell if you are using a pressurised basket if, when you hold it up to a light, you can only see one pin-hole. (You would also have a black plastic pin inserted into the spout).


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## brun

yup i switched to a normal basket within days of getting my machine

i think the lever problems were fixed a while ago now, all the current reviews and posts i see nobody has a problem with it anymore, and it seems very rare that someone needs to get the allen key out


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## Danm

Helpful last post Brun.

I stumbled upon a old coffee geek thread yesterday and strted to get slightly concerned that i did not have an allen key with mine.!

Btw: still enjoying it and learning to enjoy it. Gonna get some bean for press today and see how adjusting grind settings go.


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## dougl

Just a point of interest - I hated the portafilter holder supplied with the Vario and tended to weigh the dose and grind it as I needed it straight into the supplied bin as this was much cleaner, despite this adding a few seconds to dosing. Your mileage may vary! I suppose you could add some sort of funnel to the basket to make dosing cleaner.


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## brun

is it not adjustable so you can get it sitting high ?


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## Danm

its def adjustable but dont recall if factory setting is at the high point. I do need to play with mine some more.

Its not the cleanest fit, but for me, the small amount of wastage at the bottom of the unit is preferable to grinding into the bin.


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## dougl

I don't think I put it back to its highest setting which the Gaggia needs. I think there is still a gap between the lip of the basket and the chute to let grounds fly. The good thing about the bin is that it is antistatic and therefore the coffee does not clump when you grind into the bin. Try both, you may like using the portafilter holder.


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## brun

id just like to thank every single person who replied to this thread, its huge and has helped me massively on my grinder choice

fingers crossed, tomorrow, ill be enjoying better coffee


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## fatboyslim

Did you even consider this?










Definitely my next grinder.


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## brun

ive not seen any of those around in any of the UK online shops, plus isnt it a lot more expensive than the Vario

the Vario has arrived, but my beans are only coming next week, so im hoping the mrs can pick me something up from Bold St in Liverpool


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## brun

No mess ! This grinder is amazing


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## chimpsinties

Get some pics up, of the grinder and the grind









Glad you like it.


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## chimpsinties

fatboyslim said:


> Did you even consider this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely my next grinder.


Haha! It looks like R2D2's illegitimate love child









I think I like it


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## fatboyslim

Price is around £1800...

This was obviously not a genuine suggestion brun just in case you were wondering.

Call it my dream machine. Its what my local cafe use and I was dying to have a go on it.


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## MikeHag

chimpsinties said:


> Haha! It looks like R2D2's illegitimate love child
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I like it


Naah, THIS is the real Mahlkoenig R2D2


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## chimpsinties

fatboyslim said:


> Price is around £1800...
> 
> This was obviously not a genuine suggestion brun just in case you were wondering.
> 
> Call it my dream machine. Its what my local cafe use and I was dying to have a go on it.


Speaking of that. Has anyone ever convinced their local coffee shop to let them have a go on their equipment?

I'd love to have a crack at some of that mega expensive kit


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## chimpsinties

MikeHag said:


> Naah, THIS is the real Mahlkoenig R2D2


That is one seriously ugly machine. I think if Steve Jobbs hadn't died recently, seeing this would have finished him off


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## dougl

I was a bit worried that you hadn't received it Brun as the Royal Mail website initially said they'd carded you, but then that changed. I'm actually very pissed off with RM. Normal standard next day delivery doesn't attract VAT, yet it does on a Saturday, how does that work? Anyway I'm glad it's safely with you and it looks like you're enjoying it. At a push Waitrose do prepacked Illy and their own Italian Roast coffee beans which are better than nothing - certainly cheap enough to play with in the case of their own beans...


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## brun

sadly we dont have a Waitrose anywhere near me, id love to try some of the Illy


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## brun

that pic is straight out of the grinder, ive not fiddled with it at all, nooooooooo clumps









and dougl, they did card me but i managed to get it, for some reason both parents left the house for a bit even though my grinder was coming and it was missed, my dad said he had left a note on the door to leave with a neighbour but he hadnt, i was fuming !!!.......i went to the sorting office and the driver had got back and unloaded so i managed to get it, quite a stressful afternoon as i had an eye test appointment to get to aswell

all is well now though


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## dougl

:good:









Perhaps you should a) Update your sig b) Remove my masking tape stickers and c) Get very stroppy with your parents or perhaps trade them in for newer versions









It all looks the business! That grind looks very consistent. Maybe I didn't give it the best chance. I am VERY happy with my Mazzer though!

Believe it or not some of the cheap Tesco beans in a white bag actually produce reasonable espresso. They are not sold as Espresso beans, but used to work well in my semi-auto. Again good for a play around.


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## brun

I'm on bold st coffee house blend at the mo, which I believe is from hasbean


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## SlowRoast

chimpsinties said:


> Speaking of that. Has anyone ever convinced their local coffee shop to let them have a go on their equipment?
> 
> I'd love to have a crack at some of that mega expensive kit


Indeed! I've been on the Francino set up at The Store in Rothwell and pulled a shot from heaven with one adjustment of the grinder...


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## ripley

Congrats Brun looks really great









mind and post how you get on with your lusty when they arrive.

cheers


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