# Single vs Double - Dialling in



## Ark (Apr 11, 2020)

Hi folks,

So I'm attempting currently to dial in my first ever espresso correctly...and it's proving to be much more difficult that I might have planned for! I'm aiming for 18g in - 36g out, but in my trial and error phase I'm burning through so many beans.

My main question is if I can get the espresso tasting right with a single (9g in - 18g out I'm guessing?) then can I simply double the dose and expect similar results? Another question would be whether lattes and cappuchinos always use a double shot - in what scenarios with milky drinks should I expect to vary between doubles and singles?

Thanks!


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

I'm also a noob and I tried using the last of some beans as a single (in a double basket) after pulling a decent double with the same grind settings - it was way too fast/under-extracted. YMMV!


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## KingoftheHeath (Nov 22, 2019)

Singles are notoriously difficult. You're better off going for a double. And yes, you will burn through beans quickly. Once you gain experience it'll come down to 2 or 3 shots it dial in.

Is your basket definitely an 18g'er?


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

Is it controversial to suggest erring on the side of too fine rather than too coarse? I find a slow shot can be ok but a really fast shot is always sour and undrinkable.


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## Ark (Apr 11, 2020)

KingoftheHeath said:


> Singles are notoriously difficult. You're better off going for a double. And yes, you will burn through beans quickly. Once you gain experience it'll come down to 2 or 3 shots it dial in.
> 
> Is your basket definitely an 18g'er?


 Thanks, will just take a little time to get into the swing of things!

I'm using the default double basket which came with my Barista Express - which I think is 54mm so guessing that's for around 18g?


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## allikat (Jan 27, 2020)

Double baskets are, officially, 14g. But most will take 17 or 18g just fine.


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

I got some good advice on this forum to just take a couple of months ordering 250g bags of the same coffee and use that time to practice. Dialling in will be much faster and you won't be wasting 30% of the bag while you're learning. Maybe pick a dark blend (I did this with red brick but there are definitely cheaper options that will work fine).


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

I've always found the BE non-pressurised double works best with 18-20g. I usually use 19.5g after freezing and thawing beans, or 20g if not frozen. Now have a Niche, but used to find 7 or 8 on the BE grinder was good for fresh coffee. YMMV.


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

-Mac said:


> I've always found the BE non-pressurised double works best with 18-20g. I usually use 19.5g after freezing and thawing beans, or 20g if not frozen. Now have a Niche, but used to find 7 or 8 on the BE grinder was good for fresh coffee. YMMV.


 How you finding the BE with the niche? Cause I wanted to order on on Friday


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Ark said:


> My main question is if I can get the espresso tasting right with a single (9g in - 18g out I'm guessing?) then can I simply double the dose and expect similar results? Another question would be whether lattes and cappuchinos always use a double shot - in what scenarios with milky drinks should I expect to vary between doubles and singles?
> 
> Thanks!


 No. Even if you dial in a 9g single dose for an 18g shot you'll find that doubling the dose and output doesn't simply give you more of the same, there will be significant differences in the texture and balance of the shot. You might well find that with a 9g dose you prefer a different brew ratio than with an 18g dose. Secondly you wouldn't use the same grinder setting unless you're using those special IMS single baskets (and even then you'll probably want to adjust the setting a touch). And you would use a different basket.

You would usually use a double shot in milky drinks. If somebody doesn't want a double you'd split the double into two cups or just pull a single...


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Joe shorrock said:


> How you finding the BE with the niche? Cause I wanted to order on on Friday


 Great  Still want to go for a dual boiler machine ASAP, but it'll do for now. Probably won't upgrade the grinder any further than the Niche, though.


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## djam (Mar 26, 2020)

-Mac said:


> I've always found the BE non-pressurised double works best with 18-20g. I usually use 19.5g after freezing and thawing beans, or 20g if not frozen. Now have a Niche, but used to find 7 or 8 on the BE grinder was good for fresh coffee. YMMV.


 have you found that with larger beans you need to drop this dose considerably? Tried a med/dark Colombian the last couple of days and had to drop to about 14g max

New owner of a DTP and been getting to grips with it since Thursday - good thread to read as a newbie!


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

djam said:


> have you found that with larger beans you need to drop this dose considerably? Tried a med/dark Colombian the last couple of days and had to drop to about 14g max
> 
> New owner of a DTP and been getting to grips with it since Thursday - good thread to read as a newbie!


 Not sure I've noticed what I'd call larger beans. All mine are approx. the same so far. Will look out in future, though.


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

-Mac said:


> Great  Still want to go for a dual boiler machine ASAP, but it'll do for now. Probably won't upgrade the grinder any further than the Niche, though.


 Ok cool sorry didn't realised a reply, how much of an upgrade on taste was it to the niche from your express


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

A fair amount, but I bought the Niche because the grinder on my BE broke and I used it as an excuse


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

-Mac said:


> A fair amount, but I bought the Niche because the grinder on my BE broke and I used it as an excuse


 How did you the delivery after ordering it off indigogo? Atm delivery times are very delayed


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Was a couple of months pre-virus. Delivery was on the 4th day after I ordered on indegogo. All good.


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

-Mac said:


> Was a couple of months pre-virus. Delivery was on the 4th day after I ordered on indegogo. All good.


 That depresses me so much 😩


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

-Mac said:


> Was a couple of months pre-virus. Delivery was on the 4th day after I ordered on indegogo. All good.


 What machine you going to upgrade to next.


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Joe shorrock said:


> What machine you going to upgrade to next.


 Either ACS Minima or Lelit Bianca or Sage Dual Boiler. Haven't quite decided yet - not sure how much I want to experiment.


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

-Mac said:


> Either ACS Minima or Lelit Bianca or Sage Dual Boiler. Haven't quite decided yet - not sure how much I want to experiment.


 Further along than me, got grinder on order, So deffo a dual boiler, like the sage but not sure on scoping for parts if something crops up may be wrong! How do you find getting the grinds from your niche into the 54mm basket?


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Easy. I grind into the Niche stainless cup then use a cut down Skyr yogurt pot as a funnel into the pf.


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

-Mac said:


> Easy. I grind into the Niche stainless cup then use a cut down Skyr yogurt pot as a funnel into the pf.


 I'd fuck that up most likely! 😂 You live in Gloucester? I live in Cheltenham


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## Carlo (Dec 6, 2019)

Hi @Ark

I only do singles, very rarely doubles.

Singles are not easy but not as complicated as people think. I am Italian and all cafes (in their thousands!) in Italy are perfectly Ok with singles. I made it a mission to produce an espresso as similar as possible to my home espresso, i.e. 7 grams in, 25ml out (in weight I aim at about 15-16grams out, so about 1:22, a bit lower than normal Italian standard). Water at 90 deg (GH temp, so puck around 88-89deg), pressure at 9 bar, brew time 25sec, occasionally 30. Dark Italian roasts, and yes depending on the beans maybe a touch of caster sugar. This is the Italian way.

To make it work with the single basket I tried the 2 main routes, the IMS single competition basket and the LM Strada with Scarlett funnel and 41mm tamper. The latter worked best for me. For the double I just double the weight (14 grams) and I use an IMS 14g competition basket, leaving all other parameters the same. I don't change grind settings between single and doubles. In Italian bars NO-ONE would do that!

What I have done occasionally is use maybe 15 grams instead of 14 to slow down the flow slightly, depending on the coffee.

As for cappuccinos again I follow the Italian way. The REAL cappuccino is small, served in a 190ml cup. That's a single and 125ml of milk. Everything they say in US and British fora about espressos and cappuccinos I kindly discard 😂


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