# What machine do I buy? (lower end of the scale)



## chip_kara (Sep 25, 2017)

So I am looking to upgrade in the next couple of months, probably post Christmas but no harm in doing the research.

Had a Cubika(with a siliva steam arm)for the past 4 years but have been well aware of its limitations, especially since getting a Mignon MK2. I think the clear way for me to go is to a Classic or a Silvia, both of which I have used since two of my brothers have them and I think the general consensus among us is that we prefer the Silivia and after using them I wold probably aim to get one myself.

My question is, after seeing how many modded classics there are around for sale(PID, OPV etc.) but having no experience of using one, how does this change things? Would a modded classic be better than a silvia? Or is the dream scenario to get a Silvia with a PID?

I can't see that theres anything else viable at this end of the market? Not keen on the Sage DTP and can't see that theres anything else other than hoping for an exceptional second hand deal on something better coming along?

Any advice would be appreciated!







I am a student so although this might seem like an insignificant purchase to some, it's an investment for my next 4 years of coffee!


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

What's wrong with the sage DTP? You can get a refurb with warranty for £200.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

fatboyslim said:


> What's wrong with the sage DTP? You can get a refurb with warranty for £200.


Same question. The DTP is a very capable machine and can be picked up for half the price of a Silvia


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## Beth71 (Jan 4, 2017)

+1 for the DTP


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

+4 for the DTP. It makes better coffee the my mates classic with the OPV mod and with PID built in saves faffing with mods.


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## chip_kara (Sep 25, 2017)

Knew it was a risky bit to add about the DTP haha! By everything I've seen it seems like a good machine with some nice features like the built in PID. But the only reason I say 'not keen' is because when comparing machines I have not been drawn to it, which is probably mostly down to having user experience on both other machines and I guess is not a reason to dismiss it at all.

The price new of the DTP is attractive but my instinct has just been that a second hand silivia would be a better machine. Especially if you had one with a pid. E.g one with a Auber pid sold on here a couple of days ago for £250


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

chip_kara said:


> Knew it was a risky bit to add about the DTP haha! By everything I've seen it seems like a good machine with some nice features like the built in PID. But the only reason I say 'not keen' is because when comparing machines I have not been drawn to it, which is probably mostly down to having user experience on both other machines and I guess is not a reason to dismiss it at all.
> 
> The price new of the DTP is attractive but my instinct has just been that a second hand silivia would be a better machine. Especially if you had one with a pid. E.g one with a Auber pid sold on here a couple of days ago for £250


All I would say is if you want to play about with different temperatures then yeah a Silvia with pid would be a good option, but if you're not fussed then DTP is ideal.

Haha all the DTP owners will always jump in a thread to defend their machine.


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## chip_kara (Sep 25, 2017)

Yeah I enjoyed coming on this morning see the replies all being votes for the DTP! What size is the pf on your dtp @joey24dirt ? Can't find it anywhere and want to know how easy it is to get different baskets, tampers, naked pf etc!


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

chip_kara said:


> Yeah I enjoyed coming on this morning see the replies all being votes for the DTP! What size is the pf on your dtp @joey24dirt ? Can't find it anywhere and want to know how easy it is to get different baskets, tampers, naked pf etc!


Ok so the DTP has a 54mm portafilter. Random size but we've found baskets from a La Spaziale will fit with minor alterations.

Naked pf wise, Sage don't offer one but you can easily have one modified.

Check out the 'DTP owners club' on the forum. Loads of little tricks and tips on there  including what tampers people use and such


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## chip_kara (Sep 25, 2017)

Hmm okay, cheers for that, food for thought! I will check out that thread for more info.

Hopefully someone with a modded classic will chip in on here to add their own opinions!


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## Hornet's Nest (Oct 29, 2017)

I am in a similar market at the moment. Looking for a machine to run with my Ascaso mini grinder (which I'm happy with). Have seen the more recent reviews of the Ascaso Dream but am worried about reliability - I also like the Silvia and that is my 2nd choice. I didn't realise the Sage Dual Temp Pro was readily available in the UK - will look into this model.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

with Silvia you'll get a boiler and not a thermocoil like with the DTP

Silvia with a PID and few easy mods here and there will be a solid machine (but not for making many milk drinks in a row)


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## chip_kara (Sep 25, 2017)

> I am in a similar market at the moment. Looking for a machine to run with my Ascaso mini grinder (which I'm happy with). Have seen the more recent reviews of the Ascaso Dream but am worried about reliability - I also like the Silvia and that is my 2nd choice. I didn't realise the Sage Dual Temp Pro was readily available in the UK - will look into this model.


Glad there is someone else in the same boat! Hopefully people will add to this forum and it might answer both our questions


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## chip_kara (Sep 25, 2017)

Stanic said:


> with Silvia you'll get a boiler and not a thermocoil like with the DTP
> 
> Silvia with a PID and few easy mods here and there will be a solid machine (but not for making many milk drinks in a row)


Is the thermocoil advantageous? or is neither really better than the other?

Thats the feeling I've been getting, I want machine that will be as solid as you can get and last me a good few years until I am in the situation to upgrade further. For this I thought a modded Silvia would do the trick.

I didn't really think any of the machines at this bracket were suitable for making more than a couple of milky drinks in a row anyway and thats all I need.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

chip_kara said:


> Is the thermocoil advantageous? or is neither really better than the other?


given the supposedly lower total volume of water heated within the thermocoil (can't find exact info anywhere), the 330 ml boiler of Silvia should provide better thermal stability

it should also be easier/cheaper to get some second hand 58mm accessories

the steam power is huge and you can change the brew pressure to your liking


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Just to add, I also have a classic but prefer the sage. It's easier to use lol


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

joey24dirt said:


> Haha all the DTP owners will always jump in a thread to defend their machine.


Why feel the need to defend your coffee machine, if you like it then no need to justify it.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

GCGlasgow said:


> Why feel the need to defend your coffee machine, if you like it then no need to justify it.


It was a joke lol.


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

joey24dirt said:


> It was a joke lol.


There does seem to be a bit of paranoia with DTP owners as if their machines are not 'proper coffee machines'


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I'd go for the Rancilio mainly because it looks like it uses a commercial size portafilter. Unlike the Sage you wont be stuck in la la land on filter basket sizes. On the other hand how long does it take to heat up. A DTP comes on stream quickly which can be very convenient. Also looks like hot water comes out of the steam wand - pictures aren't clear enough to tell. Same with the DTP.

I've only looked at the V5 Silvia. Looks like it uses the same idea as a Piccino to speed heating up - a small insulated brew boiler. The Piccino will produce steam 3m after it's turned on, The brew boiler should be up to temperature before that but it takes significantly longer for the grouphead to fully heat up. Even longer for the portafilter. Like the Sage it's best to run hot water through it. Might be entirely different on the Silviia as it seems to only use on boiler.

Thermocoils on the DTP.-Probably a good idea to descale more often than some one might on a boiler model but the need will depend on what sort of filtering the machine uses and that filter can be pretty expensive if it really softens water. The Piccino as introduced me to 2 other aspects to think about when choosing - descaling isn't easy on it and there isn't much room under it's 2 outlet portafilter. Stacks with an open bottom one though. I haven't dismantled it to see how to descale it. There idea is to keep replacing the filter - £18 each and ok for 70L of moderately hard water.

When I was looking around before buying a BE I noticed the Gaggia Classic but recollect bad comments about the build quality of the newer versions. Might be confusing models though.

The Sage BE has it's advantages over the DTP. Of the 2 I would still buy that one. The la la land basket situation is a shame really.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

A point of view from Having owned one ( a silva )

Rather than read a manual or a brochure.

The Silvia is vastly over priced new. Vastly .

Second hand at #200 leaves you room to fit a pid, where it becomes a good little machine .

Without a pid , It lacks temp stability and temp surfing gets old quick. Very quick.

People will post charts of intra shot temp but this isn't where it lacks . It's understanding what temp you are at each time you start at shot. The thermostat has got a pretty big deadband on it.

The auto shut off on the new models needs deactivating which will knacker your warranty, otherwise you're left with an machine thag switchss off before the groip get to temp.

Other machine have non 58mm pf and make great Coffee ( pavoni and spaz machines ) .

At entry level the biggest impact and or variance a machine can have in making espresso is temp stability.


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## chip_kara (Sep 25, 2017)

@Stanic The odd size of the DTP is a con for me, for as you say I already have 58mm accessories and its easier to pick those up.

@Mrboots2u Thats an interesting point about temp stability, I have used a silvia but not enough to get used to this aspect. I would for sure buy one second hand, definitely not new and I would try to get one either already fitted with a PID or at worst just fit one straight away(sure I could manage it)

I haven't looked at any paving machines, do you mean the likes of the Puccino?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

chip_kara said:


> @Stanic The odd size of the DTP is a con for me, for as you say I already have 58mm accessories and its easier to pick those up.
> 
> @Mrboots2u Thats an interesting point about temp stability, I have used a silvia but not enough to get used to this aspect. I would for sure buy one second hand, definitely not new and I would try to get one either already fitted with a PID or at worst just fit one straight away(sure I could manage it)
> 
> I haven't looked at any paving machines, do you mean the likes of the Puccino?


Pavoni, God dammit autocorrect.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

@chip_kara the odd size of the DTP hasn't been as issue for me, but if you have gear already then maybe a 58mm like the Silvia would be a better choice.

What's your absolute budget out of interest


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## chip_kara (Sep 25, 2017)

I re-read the post and still didn't notice the autocorrect...hmmm doesn't bode well for the History degree..

To be honest I haven't really thought of a number and it probably depends on how the car service goes in Jan, but probably £300-£350 would be the max. However, if it made sense to spend a bit more I'd just try and save up for longer. But at that price I'd be hoping to get something like a silvia with a PID.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

chip_kara said:


> Thats an interesting point about temp stability, I have used a silvia but not enough to get used to this aspect. I would for sure buy one second hand, definitely not new and I would try to get one either already fitted with a PID or at worst just fit one straight away(sure I could manage it)


Silvia with PID and insulated boiler has no real life issues with temp stability, unless you are banging out 50 shots/hour of course









La Pavoni levers look great but again not the 58 mm system..and I would definitely add a brew pressure gauge (cca. 300 USD)

but they are lovely aren't they?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

There is not much certainty that a 58mm baskets will fit all makes or as I recently found that that all baskets of one make will fit into a clone portafilter as well as they do in the one intended for the machine.

Personally I am not so sure that PID is essential but it probably depends on the machine. I haven't run many shots through my Piccino but can't say that I have noticed any problems due to that. Like others the business end needs to be hot but the taste of the shots has been consistent. I was going to set up and run old brown java though it for a while to see what happens but am probably going to bin the beans as I'm not keen on the taste. I'd call it earthy rather than musty. The few shots of monsooned malabar I have run through it seem to have more of a spicy taste but less body using the same grind and amount as I use in the BE but in a 12g basket. 9.3g is a bit low for that. I wonder if there is such a thermal mass the water passes through on it's way out that the temperature of the water varies less than the temperature in the boiler. Pass but there isn't any indication of when the brew boiler is on. Going on the steam boiler the light is only on for seconds now and again so chances are when I run a shot the brew boiler is cooling as it's going to go from min to max more quickly when the heater is on. The group head on the other hand takes a long time to heat up - it'll take a long to change temperature too.








I need to get a life - this sort of thing interests me.

John

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## chip_kara (Sep 25, 2017)

Stanic said:


> Silvia with PID and insulated boiler has no real life issues with temp stability, unless you are banging out 50 shots/hour of course
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well thats all I can ask for, maybe 5 shots in a hour would be my absolute max if I was making them for others as well so I think the machine should cope.

Oh yeah the La Pavoni levers look gorgeous but they are an area I would like to try when I have substantially more money and space of my own!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

chip_kara said:


> Well thats all I can ask for, maybe 5 shots in a hour would be my absolute max if I was making them for others as well so I think the machine should cope.
> 
> Oh yeah the La Pavoni levers look gorgeous but they are an area I would like to try when I have substantially more money and space of my own!


Making drinks for others is gonna be a pain in the arse on either a Pavoni or a Silvia tbh.

Honestly I'd just dave up a bit more and drink great filter coffee.

Wait until you can get something second hand that really ticks all your boxes.


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## chip_kara (Sep 25, 2017)

Yep I saw that one on here the other day and it seemed perfect but I just wasn't in the position to make an offer on it!

It would be a pain but it would also be rarely done so it would be fine, I guess that is another option, save up for longer and get a HX machine.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I would have thought that the Pavoni referred to earlier was more likely this one.

https://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/la-pavoni-puccino-pc.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIic7f4IKY1wIVFJ4bCh0xuw5PEAQYASABEgLXNfD_BwE






It's a more expensive machine though but used probably within your budget. The brew boiler doesn't work the same way as the pump is always running..







They are all going to vary in how they work so choose with care Like some one mentioned in another thread the main problem with the Piccino is descaling. When I find a way into the machine I'll find out how that can be done. Might be hard or might be easy. The reason I bought one is baskets and that for a boiler machine it looks like it should heat up the quickest and I may be able to live with the time it takes - the brew boiler and the group head are all in one piece, that's why it's quickish.







I have a limited budget too but saving for my wife's new kitchen has left some excess. Far more than expected actually. I'm enjoying that but it wont last.

I should have mentioned that the Piccino does come with real coffee machine filter. That should help but I have no idea how much.

John

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## chip_kara (Sep 25, 2017)

Thanks for those videos John.

So you current have the Francino Piccino? It does look like an interesting option to look more into. Im not averse at all if it makes sense to saving a bit more cash and getting something substantially better!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I mentioned La Pavoini ( lever machines ) just give an example of machines that dont have 58 mm pf and still make great coffee.


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## chip_kara (Sep 25, 2017)

I do hope to have/use a lever machine at some point in the future, it would be an interesting new experience!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

chip_kara said:


> Thanks for those videos John.
> 
> So you current have the Francino Piccino? It does look like an interesting option to look more into. Im not averse at all if it makes sense to saving a bit more cash and getting something substantially better!


I have a Sage Barista Express with it's la la land filter basket limitations. The Piccino is a project in some ways. It was bought used off ebay and still has some time left on it's warrantee. It might turn into what I usually call an ebay loan. Buy used off ebay and later sell the same way. Costs of doing that are usually pretty low. It's hardly been used and the seller did have a good reason for that. There are a number of sizes of basket that can be used with it. Basically I intend to modify it and see how that goes but will continue mostly using the BE.

So far I can get a stronger extraction from the BE but am still working on that. The BE is far more convenient to use. It's all there, brew, steam and hot water plus very quick heat up. The Picino lacks water, steams well but the extraction isn't as high as the BE. I suspect that may be down to brew temperature variations but it could be grind, fill level or the baskets themselves. So the first question will be how much the temperature varies during a shot. I'm not going to recommend that you should buy one. I don't know enough about the machine. The one in the video is the earlier version. Mine is the more recent one but I believe that they are essentially the same. I mentioned them and the Pavoni just to point out that the machines do vary and it's hard to know what they do unless you use one.

Plenty of people use DTP's and BE's from Sage. Really other than the basket problem they are both very decent machines. Some prefer the DTP and a separate grinder. I decided on the BE for it's bells and whistles and thought that in order to try different beans a second grinder was on the cards anyway so that's what I have done.

John

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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

I went from a Cubika to an older Classic, with an Auber PID, Silvia wand etc. etc. I'd already upgraded to a Super Jolly Grinder and seen an improvement but the variables were too hard to control with the Cubika.

The Auber PID really makes the classic a doddle to use, with programmable pre-infusion, timed shots, temperature stability etc. The fact that it can take 'standard' baskets and accessories has proven to be very useful.

The one thing it's not so good at is milk at volume. It runs out of steam after 2 drinks. I then have to run water through the group to refill the boiler, then wait for temp to build back up to steam again. If that's a regular requirement for you then avoid the classic.


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## chip_kara (Sep 25, 2017)

BaggaZee said:


> I went from a Cubika to an older Classic, with an Auber PID, Silvia wand etc. etc. I'd already upgraded to a Super Jolly Grinder and seen an improvement but the variables were too hard to control with the Cubika.
> 
> The Auber PID really makes the classic a doddle to use, with programmable pre-infusion, timed shots, temperature stability etc. The fact that it can take 'standard' baskets and accessories has proven to be very useful.
> 
> The one thing it's not so good at is milk at volume. It runs out of steam after 2 drinks. I then have to run water through the group to refill the boiler, then wait for temp to build back up to steam again. If that's a regular requirement for you then avoid the classic.


Yeah, I've seen a huge improvement from the hand grinder to the Mignon but its just highlighted further the limitations of the cubika in controlling variables like you say.

I do like the idea of a PID on whatever machine I get, I really should consider a Classic with a PID as a real alternative I guess. Did you fit the PID yourself? If so, how much did it set you back?

Thanks for info on steaming, that is one of the reasons I sway towards the Silvia, the superior steaming power.


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

The PID was fitted when I got it. Worth noting that not all PIDs are equal, the Auber seems to be the one to look for, with more functionality than cheaper options. The steam is more than up to the job for small quantities, I've got a Silvia wand fitted and the milk is great but dinner parties can be a problem.


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## chip_kara (Sep 25, 2017)

BaggaZee said:


> The PID was fitted when I got it. Worth noting that not all PIDs are equal, the Auber seems to be the one to look for, with more functionality than cheaper options. The steam is more than up to the job for small quantities, I've got a Silvia wand fitted and the milk is great but dinner parties can be a problem.


Yeah, from what little research I've done the Auber seem to be the best and most used. Ahh well, dinner parties won't be a problem for me haha, thanks for the advice!


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## Newkybroon (Nov 1, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> It was a joke lol.


No humour those "Weegies" ;-)


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## Hornet's Nest (Oct 29, 2017)

As a newbie who wants a good machine that I can develop my skills with I'm beginning to lean towards the Sage Duo Temp Pro.

There are some great looking machines within my price bracket all of which I'm sure I could learn to use well from such names and Lelit, Pavoni, Rancillio, Gaggia and Ascaso nut what bothers me about one or two in this list is reliability and the backing of a decent dealer network here in the UK. I really can't see any negatives with the Sage and with one or two retailers offering 2 years warranties I cannot see a downside. OK I won't be temperature surfing or playing around with PID temperatures but then there are so many other variables that will remain within my control. It could be argued that some of the other models are more of a long term investment as you can replace components more easily - but I'm not sure why you cannot do the same with the Sage.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

> As a newbie who wants a good machine that I can develop my skills with I'm beginning to lean towards the Sage Duo Temp Pro.
> 
> There are some great looking machines within my price bracket all of which I'm sure I could learn to use well from such names and Lelit, Pavoni, Rancillio, Gaggia and Ascaso nut what bothers me about one or two in this list is reliability and the backing of a decent dealer network here in the UK. I really can't see any negatives with the Sage and with one or two retailers offering 2 years warranties I cannot see a downside. OK I won't be temperature surfing or playing around with PID temperatures but then there are so many other variables that will remain within my control. It could be argued that some of the other models are more of a long term investment as you can replace components more easily - but I'm not sure why you cannot do the same with the Sage.


The DTP is a great machine I think. Sage are apparently working on a website that you can order more spares from so hopefully that will land soon. You can ring up and order though so I think as long as you know what you want and can get it across to them, then part should be available. They are pretty sharp with email responses also. I had a great experience with a girl called Lea who was brilliant.

So I think the DTP may soon be seen as a more long term thing


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

There is a company appointed for Sage repairs. What isn't clear is if they will sell parts to people who want diy repair. The Sage web site currently shows more spares for the machines than it did a few months ago but last time I looked no signs of a group head seal. Odd thing to omit. I'm not sure where spares are stocked or by whom when it gets down to what might be called technical bits.

The only downside on DTP and BE's really is thermoblocks and scaling. I have a very strong suspicion that if some one tries to descale when it's already causing problems they will probably not get rid of them. On the other hand the thermoblocks are a big advantage. No need to wait for 1/2hr for machines to heat up fully. A big plus as far as I'm concerned.

The other odd aspect is the plastic group head. It wont heat the portafilter much even when running a shot. I've found that the pressurised single basket soon fixes that. I just run a double shot through an empty one and use the output to preheat my mug. That does a better job extraction wise than what I did previously - ran a blank shot through the basket I was going to use.

The downside for me on the DTP was hot water so went for the BE. We use a Morphy Richards hot water dispenser for boiling water now though and that can also be set for coffee.







I suspect I would still buy the BE though. I think the extras on it are worth having but probably over priced really.

John

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## Beth71 (Jan 4, 2017)

ajohn said:


> There is a company appointed for Sage repairs. What isn't clear is if they will sell parts to people who want diy repair. The Sage web site currently shows more spares for the machines than it did a few months ago but last time I looked no signs of a group head seal. Odd thing to omit. I'm not sure where spares are stocked or by whom when it gets down to what might be called technical bits.
> 
> The only downside on DTP and BE's really is thermoblocks and scaling. I have a very strong suspicion that if some one tries to descale when it's already causing problems they will probably not get rid of them. On the other hand the thermoblocks are a big advantage. No need to wait for 1/2hr for machines to heat up fully. A big plus as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> ...


I bought a grouphead seal for the DTP via the website a couple of weeks ago. Looking now, it appears they're no longer listed so perhaps temporarily out of stock.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Beth71 said:


> I bought a grouphead seal for the DTP via the website a couple of weeks ago. Looking now, it appears they're no longer listed so perhaps temporarily out of stock.


I'll have to have a look on the website. Wondering if the portafilters are available as I need some more


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> I'll have to have a look on the website. Wondering if the portafilters are available as I need some more


The portafilters seem to be now you see them then you don't as well. Other items such has cleaning products have remained about but shown no stock.

I picked up a portafilter on ebay with 2 double single wall filters but haven't converted it yet.

John

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