# Got the upgraditis itch and looking for some advice



## Jamie_C (Nov 6, 2020)

Hello 👋🏻

I've been reading the forums for a while and read most of Dave C's reviews this week as I'm looking to upgrade my beginner setup which is increasingly inconsistent.

So I've had my Sage DTP for 4+ years now and I think it's starting to get a bit tired, tight knob and likes to fill the drip tray. I went full Sage and paired this with the Smart Grinder Pro of which the first was replaced due to a gearing issue and the second one has been flawless so far. I'm finding the very basic controls of the DTP are holding me and my coffee enjoyment back as I've reached the top of what I can realistically achieve from the machine. I also find it very slow and annoying to make a couple of flat whites for me and my wife on a weekend morning due to the cooling purges following the steam wand use. I don't like the noise of the vibration pump but understand that this model is fairly bottom of the range. I weigh my grounds and my extraction for a 2:1 ratio (17g to 34g) in around 25s including the low pressure pre-infusion, but finding the machine and grinder really struggles with some beans to maintain flow or not gush.

A bit about my usage. I work from home full time and my wife works from home part time so we both enjoy a coffee with breakfast and often have another couple of coffees through the day up until late afternoon. I would average that I pull about 3 to 5 shots and a couple of steamed milks on an average day. When we are allowed visitors I am often pulling 3 or 4 shots at a time. I'm really itching to be able to experiment with my shots but retain simplicity for the family to use the machine without having to be taught extensively to use it.

*What I'm looking at*

I like the idea of an E61 machine with a rotary pump (because it's very different to what I have) and excited about being able to control the pressure profile of my shot as I learn to use the machine. This is where the problem lies really in that my wife is definitely not interested in learning to use a complex machine so whilst I want to be able to play with the programming of the extraction she wants something she can walk up to and pull a shot, tamping and pushing a button (or pulling a level) is really as much as she wants to do. I'm keen to get something I can leave on for the day or use a smart plug to control.

Machines I've been reading about



*Lelit MaraX* - Love the compact design but worried that it's not enough of an upgrade and I'll want to upgrade again in a few years.


*Lelit Bianca* - Really worried about *repeatability* and my *wife not being able to use the machine*. Do Lelit make a machine with profiling and repeatability?


*ACS Minima* - Will probably be a great machine for us but no profiling so might suffer from upgraditis in a few years


*Bezzera Duo* - I know the least about this machine and doesn't look like it has profiling


*Crem One* - The 2B R-LFPP is really up there on my list as I love the idea of saving a "recipe" for my wife to be able to walk up and shoot, whilst allowing me to tinker. Price is really the sticking point here as it's top of my budget.


Is there anything else I should be considering? I'd ultimately prefer to buy a machine that I never need to upgrade and will last me decades with inexpensive maintenance. My counter top has a depth of 47cm which is a bit tight for some of the larger machines.

I expect I'll probably need a new grinder to achieve the best from these machines and expect a Niche would be on the shortlist but open to suggestions.

Any advice would be appreciated.


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## EddieT (Oct 27, 2020)

Hi Jamie!

I'm no expert and in a similar position to you really so I'll follow this thread with interest. Certainly a big decision and not an easy one so take your time

With the Bianca, what do you mean by being worried about repeatability?

As far as I know there are only a handful of machines which offer flow profiling today so that will severely limit your choice!

How interested is your wife in coffee? Would she be happier with a separate bean to cup machine for her so you're not restricted by her wanting ease?

Eddie


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Hi Jamie,

Thorough post 👍👍

We are the UK retailer for the Minima and the Duo. The Duo offers the rotary pump you are looking for and the build quality is superb. It also has a touch screen display and you can set auto on/off so no need for a smart plug to control it. It does not offer flow profiling** but then this might be a plus for your other half!! What it does do is line pressure pre infusion so if you plumbed it in (which if you can, you should, it is super convenient).

The Minima again is beautifully put together with I suspect some of the thickest gauge stainless steel in any domestic machine. It is a vibe pump machine but has a lovely slow ramp up to pressure. It has stainless boilers and excellent steam power. In cup it is up there with any machine I have tried.

Both machines are full stainless frame and case construction.

**You could add the Bianca flow control paddle to either of these machines and achieve manual control pressure profile.

We will be selling off our workshop Duo shortly that has seen around 3 months use and will come with all original packaging, accessories, 12 month warranty and a decent discount.

If you want to discuss either machine or would like a quote on a discounted package with a grinder please get in touch!

David


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## Jamie_C (Nov 6, 2020)

EddieT said:


> With the Bianca, what do you mean by being worried about repeatability?


 Hi Eddie,

Since the paddle is entirely manual I suspect it is an art more than a science and doing the same movements at the right time, day to day, is quite tricky. Also if I setup the grind in the morning for a profiled shot will a subsequent shot without using the paddle (wife operated) be a less than ideal result?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

If your thinking of a paddle why not look at the lelit Victoria? Can set pre infusion and repeatable.

Granted its not an e61, but that would be mu choice if i upgraded from my e61 machine


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## EddieT (Oct 27, 2020)

Jamie_C said:


> Hi Eddie,
> 
> Since the paddle is entirely manual I suspect it is an art more than a science and doing the same movements at the right time, day to day, is quite tricky. Also if I setup the grind in the morning for a profiled shot will a subsequent shot without using the paddle (wife operated) be a less than ideal result?


 Oh that's interesting, I hadn't really thought about that. I assumed you get the bean dialled in with the valve open then you can play around with flow, but I am probably wrong. Interesting to see what others with experience would say.


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

I may be able to offer a bit of advice

A long time ago I had a Sage BE, used it for 2 years then went on to upgrade etc. I had a rotary pump Izzo Alex and it was a lovely HX machine. Wanted a dual boiler so changed to an Expobar Dual Boiler with Vibe pump.

Sold all of that when I moved but now have just bought a MaraX.

The MaraX really is VERY quiet for a vibe pump machine. It really is so much quieter than the Expobar and because of all of the rubber bushings / tray stops etc there is no tray rattling or metallic noise at all. My Izzo with rotary pump was noisier I think.

In terms of operation, the MaraX is a joy to use. The slightly more intelligent PID control makes the absolute best of the HX single boiler combo, and steaming power is great whilst brew temp is solid and stable.

It is compact too, which is good for me. I have no regrets on getting this machine. I have installed an IMS group screen and am using an 18g VST basket in a naked PF.

I know I could add the pressure profiling lever control if I wanted to later (don't feel the need now really).


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## Jamie_C (Nov 6, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> We will be selling off our workshop Duo shortly that has seen around 3 months use and will come with all original packaging, accessories, 12 month warranty and a decent discount.


 What is the Duo offering over the cheaper equivalents, I guess it's probably the touch screen? As I said it's a machine on which I've done the least research.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Jamie_C said:


> What is the Duo offering over the cheaper equivalents, I guess it's probably the touch screen? As I said it's a machine on which I've done the least research.


 Info out there is a touch limited in the UK market. We have sold some Duos to forum members though so hopefully someone can offer their input. Lots of info on YouTube from the US on it and the Matrix (same machine just different cosmetics).

It is really tough to tell you what it has and hasn't over 5 different machines as they all have their pros and cons. Some highlights (and I think all exclusive over something like a Mara x) - dual boilers, touch controls, rotary pump, ability to plumb in, true line pressure preinfusion, wood accents, dual user adjustable PID control, programmable auto on/off, full stainless frame and body, toggle steam and water controls, build quality (this machine is in a different league to some).

I know something like full stainless build doesn't exactly get the pulse racing but it is strong tick in the pro column of a machine for me. I personally would not want to spend a massive chunk of cash only to see a rusty frame a few years down the line.

The machine on your list that is somewhat of an anomaly is the Minima. They set out to design a dual boiler machine for the price of a quality HX. The spec is crazy for the price.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> I know something like full stainless build doesn't exactly get the pulse racing but it is strong tick in the pro column of a machine for me. I personally would not want to spend a massive chunk of cash only to see a rusty frame a few years down the line.





BlackCatCoffee said:


> Some highlights (and I think all exclusive over something like a Mara x


 Just a minor note: The MaraX construction is all stainless steel.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Cuprajake said:


> If your thinking of a paddle why not look at the lelit Victoria? Can set pre infusion and repeatable.


 As pointed out on other Victoria threads - the Victoria pre-infusion is rather useless. Doesn't really work, as it also vents at the end of it, destroying the puck.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Jamie_C - I don't know what your budget is, but assuming by what you said, around £2k, tops of £2.5k (crem one).

With that budget, you can consider a wide range of equipment, as you suggested and others did too. You keep going on about Profiling, so I take that's important to you. @Jonyhas a ACS Vesuvius for sale, for £1.8k or £1.7k. Can't remember. If you are considering second hand, it might be worth a look, because that will tick a lot of your boxes, if not them all! I don't remember exactly how much they cost new. @BlackCatCoffeemay know, not sure if he stocks it.

on the lower end, there's the Elizabeth. It offers bloom and steam pre-infusion, but not profiling. It's dead simple to use and to keep it going. But it might be not what you want for decades to come.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Jamie_C said:


> Hello 👋🏻
> 
> I've been reading the forums for a while and read most of Dave C's reviews this week as I'm looking to upgrade my beginner setup which is increasingly inconsistent.
> 
> ...


 The Vesuvius would seem to tick all of your boxes (magnetic gear pump). If you want a rotary pump because of the noise of a vibe pump the V's pump I think lies somewhere in between. There's one in the sale section now and Paolo from ACS also sells ex-display ones occasionally.

The paddle on the E61 of the Bianca (which can be dded to the Minima and many other machines). It's intuitive to use when you know what you're doing and easily repeatable. What I have noticed is playing around with it can rescue shots where the grind isn't right and getting good results even if it's not the ratio you were aiming for e.g with a grind way too coarse you can use a lower flow rate and extract to a longer ratio like 1:4 or 1:5 which delivers something like a cross between espresso and filter.


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## Jamie_C (Nov 6, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> The Vesuvius would seem to tick all of your boxes (magnetic gear pump). If you want a rotary pump because of the noise of a vibe pump the V's pump I think lies somewhere in between. There's one in the sale section now and Paolo from ACS also sells ex-display ones occasionally.


 The *Vesuvius* looks lovely but looks a little too deep for my counter top. Speaking of which the heigh clearance to my cupboards is 50cm with 30cm depth, does anyone know if accessing water tanks would be an issue? I think the *Bianca* with a side tank might fit quite nicely and be easy to access. The dimensions on the website claim that the unit is very deep but I assume this includes the tank at the rear.

I am very indecisive so this is a really tough call, every machine is some what a compromise. I would err on a smaller machine so that it doesn't monopolise my kitchen.


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## Jamie_C (Nov 6, 2020)

Thanks for all the help and advice everyone. I ordered a Bianca from BB which arrived today and looking forward to playing with it tomorrow.


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## EddieT (Oct 27, 2020)

Jamie_C said:


> Thanks for all the help and advice everyone. I ordered a Bianca from BB which arrived today and looking forward to playing with it tomorrow.


Exciting! Please report back once you've got to know her a bit 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JasonLovesRistretto (Nov 14, 2020)

I was once really excited about pressure profiling. I switched from a machine where I could only do pre-infusion to full 9bar pressure. So, now I can pressure profile. I then played and played with the different profiles. In the end, all I really do is what I used to do: pre-infusion and then full 9bar.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Lelit paddle is easy to get repeatable drinks from , if you choose to you can just open it up and use it like a normale61 for the wife .


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## EddieT (Oct 27, 2020)

JasonLovesRistretto said:


> I was once really excited about pressure profiling. I switched from a machine where I could only do pre-infusion to full 9bar pressure. So, now I can pressure profile. I then played and played with the different profiles. In the end, all I really do is what I used to do: pre-infusion and then full 9bar.


That's interesting. I wonder how many people are like this, or just use it for the sake of it without really needing to or knowing why. Did you find any noticeable difference when profiling? Not really or yes but not worth the effort or just prefer a normal shot? Which machine do you have out of interest?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JasonLovesRistretto (Nov 14, 2020)

I have a LM GS3. There were definite differences in the shots from the different profiles. Most of which I did not like. Either I was just used to my usual shot. Or, that's actually just a great taste. Not sure. It is all personal, in the end.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

To me, the appeal of such machines (Vesuvius, Decent, R9One, etc...) is not about experimenting on a daily basis, but getting to know which profile works best with the coffee you have.

I think once you figure things out, it's a matter of repeating that program time and again. Change coffee, change program (or not).

One of the advantages of the computerised automated process over the trendy flow control valve on E61 group, as you can reproduce things albeit being a fully manual process.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

The Vesuvius is a great machine.


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## EddieT (Oct 27, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> To me, the appeal of such machines (Vesuvius, Decent, R9One, etc...) is not about experimenting on a daily basis, but getting to know which profile works best with the coffee you have.
> 
> I think once you figure things out, it's a matter of repeating that program time and again. Change coffee, change program (or not).
> 
> One of the advantages of the computerised automated process over the trendy flow control valve on E61 group, as you can reproduce things albeit being a fully manual process.


 Yeah I can see that, interesting point. Those machines are almost twice the price of the Bianca though, so that are least gives you a foot into the door of profiling albeit manually and not as repeatable as something you can program.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

EddieT said:


> Yeah I can see that, interesting point. Those machines are almost twice the price of the Bianca though, so that are least gives you a foot into the door of profiling albeit manually and not as repeatable as something you can program.


 That's a machine I keep eyeing out - I suppose you could say that Bianca's Elizabeth's big sister. For the price, seems like great value. Compact, flow profiling, rotary pump, tank placement option, dual boiler, Lelit Control Centre... What's not to like.


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## GazRef (Dec 30, 2019)

Jamie I was looking at the Bianca for a while, still am, but you might want to consider the Decent if the budget allows. I'm yo yoing between the 2. With the Decent all the benefits of pressure profiling via under the hood profiles so repeatability for the wife. Small foot print too. Prices are next level though.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Flow and pressure profiling are not the same thing ..


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## benoit3000 (Apr 14, 2020)

Jamie_C said:


> Thanks for all the help and advice everyone. I ordered a Bianca from BB which arrived today and looking forward to playing with it tomorrow.


 Hi @Jamie_C - how have you found the Bianca so far? I also have a Sage DTP at the moment and was originally considering MaraX vs. Sage Dual Boiler for budget of c.£1k... now thinking I'll move away from Sage and try an E61 for the first time... but then also wondering, like you said in your OP, whether I'll be ready to move on from the Mara in a couple of years and worth biting bullet now to go for the Bianca. It is twice the price though so trying to conclude if this is worth it - would welcome any thoughts you had that finally swung your decision. Hope you're enjoying the new machine! 😀👌🏼

cheers,

chris


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## Jamie_C (Nov 6, 2020)

benoit3000 said:


> Hi @Jamie_C - how have you found the Bianca so far? I also have a Sage DTP at the moment and was originally considering MaraX vs. Sage Dual Boiler for budget of c.£1k... now thinking I'll move away from Sage and try an E61 for the first time... but then also wondering, like you said in your OP, whether I'll be ready to move on from the Mara in a couple of years and worth biting bullet now to go for the Bianca. It is twice the price though so trying to conclude if this is worth it - would welcome any thoughts you had that finally swung your decision. Hope you're enjoying the new machine! 😀👌🏼
> 
> cheers,
> 
> chris


 Hi Chris,

Still feels like early days with the machine and still exploring its possibilities. The dual boiler means that I've definitely reduce the time to make two milk drinks compared to the DTP. The consistency is flawless and never realised how important puck prep would be on a serious machine. If I was coming from a more expensive automatic machine I guess I might miss the ability to programme a set shot time or volume so that I could concentrate on steaming milk as the shot pours.

The paddle combined with the pump and looks is really what swayed me. I've tried the programmed pre-infusion but finding the paddle is a dream to use and it's quite fun trying out different flow rates and controlling the pressure at the puck. That dial is additive to watch.

The Elizabeth was seriously tempting due to its size and simplicity but felt I would get the itch to try something with more control in a few years.

I guess the biggest drawback of the E61 is that backflushing with chemicals requires servicing the lever mechanism.

The marax would have been a good choice for me but couldn't quite bring myself to spend that money on a vibe pump and hx.


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## benoit3000 (Apr 14, 2020)

Thanks for the quick reply @Jamie_C - great info from your initial impressions. Glad you like the new kit!

I'm the same as you... not sure I want to drop a grand on the MaraX when I'm reasonably confident I'll want more variable adjustment in the future... and equally the Bianca is more than I really wanted to spend on a new toy but it does seem appealing... decisions decisions.

But thanks for your comments, very helpful. And interesting what you're saying about e61 cleaning... I'll need to explore that further before taking the plunge on one of these types


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