# Extraction time starts when?



## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

Hello all

Been self studying on coffee making. I have two different info on extraction time. One article says extraction time begins when you press the button (or pull the lever for those using lever machines). Another says time starts on the first drop.

For me, I start my timer on first drop and seems to work for me but how do you do yours?

Thanks


----------



## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

On the point you hit button/pull lever!


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I've only really used pumps and have gone with timing from hitting the button.

The Classic used to have about a 5 sec delay before anything coming out E61 seems to be about 10 sec.


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

It's an interesting one though, and proof that extraction times are a but flexible.

My Expobar has an extra pre-infusion chamber above the shower screen, and as such, even without any timed preinfusion, adds a good 1-2 seconds to the pour time, meaning that my timings will be wildly different from say, a gaggia classic.

So I now aim for nearer 30-32 seconds on this machine, as first pour rarely occurs before 10 seconds.


----------



## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Regardless of machine and what it does though, it all comes down to when do you start the timer??

If your looking to discuss things on a forum then we should all look to report the time from hitting the switch/lever?

Or am i wrong!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Sarah, as a rule, on a pump machine you start to count when you press the button. With a lever machine, it is different. You only start the count once the first drops show. This is all to do with pressure. On a lever, it falls away whereas on a pump machine, it is constant


----------



## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I've only really used pumps and have gone with timing from hitting the button.
> 
> The Classic used to have about a 5 sec delay before anything coming out E61 seems to be about 10 sec.


The delay in classics is why I start the timer on the first drop! Frankly, I'm happy to throw away my timer and just rely on the colour of the flow!


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

I have used both techniques ,starting the timer from the start of the pump and also from the first sign of coffee ,

imo i think the best and most accepted way is from when you start the pump , this alleviates timing discrepancies should you change from a naked handle to a spouted handle as the extraction will appear to the eye sooner with the naked (open) than the spouted.


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I have to confess this topic has me puzzled in the case of machines where you can determine the length of preinfusion for yourself, such as the Sage, Vesuvius, Slayer and GS3 etc. as the pump will take time to ramp up to full pressure after preinfusion anyway much the same as a lever will take time for the full pressure to take effect. So why would the method of measuring time be different i.e. from starting the shot on a pump machine or from the 1st drips on a Lever. Not that it makes a vast amount of difference to me as I'm currently running shots for longer times than 25-30 seconds anyway, it would just fill in a gap in some of my at times meandering thoughts.


----------



## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

I don't think it matters, if it's a 27 second pull from hitting the button or a 22 second pull from the first drop it's exactly the same. Ultimately you would adjust to what tastes better. Most people consider it from hitting the button. Obviously for lever or pre infusion machines this affects it. As shrink says you have to add a couple of seconds.

I also think you're right. The time is a guideline. If you are able to judge it by colour then that's as good as timing it. Similar to when steaming milk. I measure by touch, not using a thermometer. It's all about knowing what you like the taste of and accurately being able to reproduce it.


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

seeq said:


> I don't think it matters, if it's a 27 second pull from hitting the button or a 22 second pull from the first drop it's exactly the same. Ultimately you would adjust to what tastes better. Most people consider it from hitting the button. Obviously for lever or pre infusion machines this affects it. As shrink says you have to add a couple of seconds.
> 
> I also think you're right. The time is a guideline. If you are able to judge it by colour then that's as good as timing it. Similar to when steaming milk. I measure by touch, not using a thermometer. It's all about knowing what you like the taste of and accurately being able to reproduce it.


I was talking about machines on which you can define the preinfusion by both time and pressure, and when you preinfuse for longer the shot will run faster, I'm primarily interested in the reasoning behind the different ways of timing the shot between levers and the newer pump machines that have programmable preinfusion given that with these the puck isn't instantly hit with 9BAR plus of pressure the moment you hit the switch in the same way a lever doesn't hit maximum pressure instantly either.

My current method is to run the shot for as long as it takes to get my desired brew weight, provided that time doesn't get into silly numbers and I will adjust both grind level and preinfusion time and pressure to achieve this.


----------



## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

I would say even when pre infusing then start from when you turn it on. Timing is supposed to be a constant, not a variable*. If you start timing when the pour starts then it becomes a variable. It's only a problem when you compare it with a non pre infusion or lever.

*you know what I mean!


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

seeq said:


> I would say even when pre infusing then start from when you turn it on. Timing is supposed to be a constant, not a variable*. If you start timing when the pour starts then it becomes a variable. It's only a problem when you compare it with a non pre infusion or lever.
> 
> *you know what I mean!


If you are aiming for a specific weight and ratio rather than a time it doesn't matter at all, if you are aiming for x weight in y seconds and comparing brewing recipes with people the point at which the timing starts begins to matter, and even if you start the timing from the 1st drops you can still run the shot for as many seconds as you want so the time from the start of the pour is still holding constant, all you are doing is changing the point at which you start your timing. What I'm interested in finding out is why the rationale of timing a lever shot from the 1st drops and pump shot from the moment you hit the switch came about and which method (if indeed either makes any difference) is more appropriate for machines where you can manipulate the pressure at the start of a shot. E.g with the Sage whatever percentage you set the preinfusion pressure to it still takes time to ramp up to that pressure and then preinfuses for the amount of time you have also set and from there it then ramps up to full brewing pressure so the puck isn't hit with full pressure from the very start unlike say a Classic or Silvia.


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

And what if your Classic has a PID that gives a quick pump (at full pump pressure but so short a duration that it doesn't fill the headroom in the PF and therefore the puck gets a shower not a pressurised bath)?

I tamp an 18g dose (+/- 0.5), pre infuse for 1.5s, pause 2.5s then run the timer for up to 30s, but stop at the desired weight. The time it takes is just a vague benchmark - was it fast (less than 20) or slow (longer than 30, or short when the timer stopped?).


----------



## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

As others have said, it is when you hit the on switch. I synchronise my timer and on button in order to get the best shot I can get. From my experience the moment you hit the on switch there is a delay of about 4-5 seconds before you see the coffee coming out.


----------



## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

Mine seems to be 8-10 seconds delay. I may be tamping too hard.


----------



## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

Sarah. Looking at your signature you have some great kit. I had a Motta 58mm, but my results were all over the place, so I decided to remove one other variable out of the equation which is how hard to tamp. Sometimes I was doing it too hard and nothing was coming out and other times I wasn't doing it hard enough and I ended up with a gusher. That's when I got the Espro Calibrated Tamper. Yes it is crazy money, but now I get accurate results every time and I can adjust my grinder accordingly. If funds allow I would recommend it every time. With the click that it gives, you know you have tamped at the correct pressure and the pressure will be the same every time, so you can dial in your grinder and get consistent results.


----------



## hilltopbrews (May 17, 2013)

I was actually thinking of the click tamping mat by attento. It's £28 from bella. Although the pressure sensor still have to be adjusted.

Espro seems to have better review but it's very expensive!


----------

