# Baratza Encore or...



## Ragley (Sep 1, 2014)

Hi

I'm getting my first grinder to go with a Gaggia Classic. My grinder budget is £150. I posted this in the wanted section, and received some helpful advice, so I thought I'd bring my thoughts over here to see what the experts think.

It was this review that made me think the Encore would do for me:

http://prima-coffee.com/blog/baratza-encore-review-espresso-grinder

I understand that the lack of fine adjustment on the Encore will give me some problems but my ambitions are limited. At the moment I love the taste of the first few shots from a new pack of Illy ground coffee from my DeLonghi with perfect crema device. I find it pretty smooth and sweet until the grounds go stale. Even then I don't hate my espressos.

I'm stepping up to a Gaggia Classic because the DeLonghi did only three years before it started leaking all over the place and because the steam was never very good.

I obviously need a grinder to go with it, and my theory, after reading the review, is that the Encore and Classic will give me that fresh taste I like.

So does this theory have any merit? Or am I better sticking with Illy ground and a new perfect creme machine and keeping £200 in my pocket?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Buy a decent grinder capable of espresso ( not an encore ) and use fresh roasted and ground beans without a " perfect crema " ( it isn't even crema let alone perfect ) .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

£200 may get you something like a used mignion if your lucky


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## Ragley (Sep 1, 2014)

Thanks.

So what you're saying is that the minimum investment for decent espresso is £150 for a second hand Classic, £250 for a second hand Mazzer Mini.

As I don't have that much to spend, I'm better off sticking with what I know.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

May seem surprising, but the grinder is as, if not more important than the machine. It's worth investing as much as you can in the grinder.


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Hi Ragley

You may want to build your budget (or increase it) for a grinder rather than rush out now and keep an eye on the for sale section as once you get above the £200 mark, you start to get into a different league of grinder.

The grinder is pretty much the key to good consistent coffee probably more so than the machine and if you read around the forum you will pick this up quite quickly.

You have also mentioned on your original thread that you would like to be able to switch between espresso and courser grounds which will bring with it compromises; you may want to look at what percentage of espresso to course ground you need and seek advice on here accordingly.

Second hand grinders can provide better value for money when setting out and there are often the likes of Mazzers or similar that members are upgrading from, nothing wrong with them just once upgraditus kicks in, a home has to be found for the last grinder. These will in all probability provide a much better grind than anything new as woudl have been more expensive / commercial built to start with.

For a long time I had a Rocky for Espresso and a hand grinder porlex tall for pour over / aeropress as did more espresso than courser grinds, this suited me at the time. You will find it not too uncommon for members to have multiple means of grinding coffee to suit different uses which negates the need to keep changing grind settings ( coffee shops follow this principle for broadly similar reasons).

Sorry if this sounds like an enthusiasm dampener but the grinder you buy now will set you off along your coffee journey and it does tend to be that the cheaper you buy the more compromises there are and conversely the quicker you wish to upgrade.

Hope of some help, John


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Think of it like this: an espresso machine, like an oven, merely produces something from what ever you put into it. A decent grinder, will hopefully give you a more uniform particle size than a cheap grinder. the machine is irrelevant, up to a point!


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## Ragley (Sep 1, 2014)

If I decided to wait and save up for a decent grinder (and this is probably going to take a year or so), can I make passable espressos from shop ground coffee and a Classic?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

No......as soon as you grind a bean, it instantly starts to stale. It has an expected taste life of an hour or so, after that,m it will just not taste right. yes, why the hell do supermarkets and the like sell so much! As soon as you cut the bag open and smell the aroma, it is dying!


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## MellowCat (Jun 7, 2013)

to go against the grain of all the advice already given, there *are* people who use baratza grinders for espresso.

there's loads of info in places like coffeegeek, i would just look at spending approx. 50 quid more for the Virtuoso (£169 @ amazon), which has a better burr set, motor and build.

I looked at these for an office grinder for brewed coffee, filter and steeped. The burrs are proven and the grind must be acceptable enough for a lot of users on coffeegeek.

Not to detract from the advice given above, you may well soon wish to have the solid build of a mazzer or similar, with professional burrs & burr carrier and grind adjustment sooner than later.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

MellowCat said:


> to go against the grain of all the advice already given, there *are* people who use baratza grinders for espresso.
> 
> there's loads of info in places like coffeegeek, i would just look at spending approx. 50 quid more for the Virtuoso (£169 @ amazon), which has a better burr set, motor and build.
> 
> ...


I would suggest totally ignoring the above post, if you notice the number of people actually using either of these grinder for espresso successfully on the forum is either zero or pretty close to it, one guy recently bought a preciso but is having to send it back as it won't do espresso properly. The Baratza grinders below the Vario in the range are fine for brewed but just don't cut it for espresso. Keep an eye on the for sale forum something will come up shortly. Meanwhile buy yourself a hand grinder a Porlex or a Rhino is better than the frustration of pre-ground.


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

Wasn't the guys Preciso faulty, not that the grinder isn't capable if it was working properly?

The Preciso and Virtuoso use the same burrs but the adjustment steps are way finer on the Preciso, hence why it's more suited to espresso than the Virtuoso. You could use a Virtuoso for espresso but the steps are quite large so the adjustment amount won't be the best. Also Baratza don't really sell the Virtuoso for espresso, that's what the Precisio is for (it also comes with a portafilter holder unlike the Virtuoso)


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## Graeme (Feb 1, 2013)

I have a Virtuoso that I bought to use with a Gaggia Classic. It does grind fine enough for espresso, but you end up with only the 3 or 4 finest settings which makes it very difficult to finely tune the grind.

I have now bought a Eureka Mignon for espresso and use the Virtuoso for pour over, which it's great for.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Given the price of a Preciso i.e. ~£300 you'd need your head examining buying one new when you look at what else that money could get you.


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## Ragley (Sep 1, 2014)

OK. You've convinced me about the Encore. What about a second-hand Gaggia MDF for espresso?

Seems some have had success with it.


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## domjon1 (Feb 14, 2013)

has anyone successfully used an encore in tandem with a Classic? 'was bought an Encore a few months ago after a couple of years hand grinding for aeropress..thinking of taking the leap to espresso with a Classic and was rather hoping the Encore would see me through for a while.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Generally the advice here is to steer people toward what is considered the cheapest 'good' grinder (that would be the Mignon).

However sacrificing getting into espresso for a year or more to save seems like a big ask, I would stop looking at the Baratzas and have a look at what is generlaly considered the very lowest entry point for home espresso grinder: The Iberital MC2. It is much more within your budget and many people have been happy with it as a starter grinder, it is true to say the Mignon is a significant step up but if I were faced with the choice of not buying for a year vs buying entry level the MC2 would be my first consideration.


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## domjon1 (Feb 14, 2013)

Surprised at the total negativity on this thread for the Encore actually, I've read quite a few articles /other threads saying its an acceptable entry level grinder, particularly if you adjust the calibration screw to give more adjustments at the lower end.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

domjon1 said:


> Surprised at the total negativity on this thread for the Encore actually, I've read quite a few articles /other threads saying its an acceptable entry level grinder, particularly if you adjust the calibration screw to give more adjustments at the lower end.


Just out of interest were these reviewers using it for brewed methods or espresso?

Where are the reviews from , and what level of knowledge or interest do they have in coffee ?

Not saying this forum is always " right " but for example someone who has only ever used an encore , defines it as acceptable espresso because it chokes the machine ( which isn't a way to judge a grinder btw ) , defines the espresso as the best that have ever made ( versus what as a comparison )

I've not used an encore but I'm sure it can produce a grind fine enough and with a big enough dose to choke an espresso machine , this doesn't mean it's a great espresso grinder ...


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Having used a Dualit paired with a Classic for several years, I guess the Encore would certainly match if not surpass the Dualit. If you are happy with the results the Encore provides then look no further. Any actual or perceived negativity on the thread towards the Encore stems from members' passion for getting the best out of the bean and for this you need to invest as much as you can realistically afford in a grinder.


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## domjon1 (Feb 14, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Just out of interest were these reviewers using it for brewed methods or espresso?
> 
> Where are the reviews from , and what level of knowledge or interest do they have in coffee ?
> 
> ...


For espresso. I'm not really knowledgeable enough to decide who and who isn't qualified to judge, 'have just seen relatively positive comments on sites like Sweet Marias, CoffeeGeek etc

TBH I don't want to be told it's a great espresso grinder, I know that aint happening, I just wanted to hear that it would just about do me during my first steps into espresso so I didn't have to tell the breadknife that the birthday present she just bought me was to be consigned to the loft 

Anyway I think I'm gonna take the plunge on a classic and see how it goes, guessing I can use the hand grinder if I really run into problems.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok fair enough , not asking you decide who is or isn't right , when it's Concerning taste none of us are , it's a subjective individual thing .

I think the point I was trying to badly make about reviews was are they from people who have used and bought a range of grinders so have a good comparison but anyway ..

Give it a go , see if you like the coffee it makes . Only you can be the ultimate judge of what you like and what's in the cup .

Asking this forum if anything " will just about do " is slight exercise in futility


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## domjon1 (Feb 14, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ok fair enough , not asking you decide who is or isn't right , when it's Concerning taste none of us are , it's a subjective individual thing .
> 
> I think the point I was trying to badly make about reviews was are they from people who have used and bought a range of grinders so have a good comparison but anyway ..
> 
> ...


ha ha fair enough. I've just bid on a classic on the sale/swap forum so here's hoping. I'll post an update once I've found my feet for anybody else who is interested.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

domjon1 said:


> Surprised at the total negativity on this thread for the Encore actually, I've read quite a few articles /other threads saying its an acceptable entry level grinder, particularly if you adjust the calibration screw to give more adjustments at the lower end.


Baratza are pretty open with their evaluation of their grinder's performance for various brew styles...worth a read:

https://www.baratza.com/blog/which-baratza-grinder-is-right-for-you/


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## Ragley (Sep 1, 2014)

Thanks all for the useful advice on this forum at the start of my proper coffee journey last month.

Thought I'd update this thread with my (for this forum) bargain basement experience after a month of grinding with a second-hand MDF (because the Baratza got the thumbs down) and making espresso with a refurbished Gaggia Classic (£250 for both, delivered) that I found for sale here by Mark (gaggiamanualservice.com). Thanks Mark!

I don't always have time to grind coffee, and so I usually have some supermarket ground in the fridge. Of course, by the standards of this forum, the espresso I make with this old coffee is terrible, but I wanted to know how it would compare with the drink I made in my old De Longhi with a perfect crema device (which I always found acceptable). And the good news for me is that my Classic (with no perfect crema device) makes better espresso with supermarket ground coffee than my old machine. It's not amazing, but it is better.

Of course, what I really wanted was a step up in my coffee. And my new setup has definitely delivered that. Most days I have time to grind, and I'm delighted to have made some fabulous espresso with beans from Rave Coffee and Workshop Coffee. I've discovered an amazing variety of flavours that I've never experienced in coffee before.

I've made a few horrible shots, too, especially at first, but in general my espressos are good (much, much better than my old setup and the big coffee chains); and one in four is excellent. Even Sainsbury's basic beans, freshly ground, make a decent espresso (better than Illy ready ground, I think, so I can save some money there). I realise that more money would buy better consistency, but I had a budget, I stuck to it, and I'm very happy.

Downsides? My espressos run a little fast (around 20 seconds) and the MDF is already on the finest setting. I think it needs adjusting inside. (I find that I can switch to a reasonable cafetiere grind and back to espresso OK.) And my wife thinks the MDF and Classic are ugly and take up too much space. Then again, she likes the cappuccinos...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What are you dosing and extracting in 20 seconds?

Is the MDF on finest setting for all coffees ( supermarket and fresh roasted ? ). If yes Might suggest the burrs need changing. Hard to tell though. Are they sharp to the touch?

Personally I would not keep coffee in the fridge either.


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## Ragley (Sep 1, 2014)

I was grinding 16g (fresh beans) and using that in the double basket. Never weighed the shots out... will get round to it. I'm stopping the shot by colour.

But I think that my scales aren't good enough and I was under-dosing.

So this week I've swapped to grinding 18g, loosely filling the portafilter, levelling off and tamping. Unfortunately, at the same time, I've run out of fresh roasted (no roasters near me), so while I'm waiting for an online order I've been on supermarket beans every time with this technique, and, I guess, because they're old, they run fast.

Also, I'll be getting a naked portafilter and Happy Donkey 58mm convex tamper to replace the Gaggia plastic thing. That might help, too.

Probably best to leave the MDF for the moment...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Try watching these

Weigh Your Espresso:


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

5 minutes in total will give your an idea of why weighing could be a good thing to try and why stopping at a " blonde point " may be difficult to repeat and judge for a good extraction


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## rmblack78 (Oct 9, 2014)

Excellent videos. Thanks for that. Looks like I *need some new scales! (*need... Want... Whatever).


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## Bigpikle (Oct 14, 2014)

just grabbed some ebay scales recommended here - less than a fiver delivered! Got to be worth it.


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## Ragley (Sep 1, 2014)

Great videos. Thanks.

Amazon scales on their way here, too.


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## domjon1 (Feb 14, 2013)

so I've had the Classic nearly a week now so time for a few first impressions on the Encore as an espresso grinder...bear in mind these are the impressions of a beginner with few reference points...

the first thing to say I suppose is that it IS capable of grinding a decent shot...kind of...so far. It's definitely capable of grinding fine enough, grind size is pretty damn consistent and I've had no issues with clumping. It's got a tiny footprint, it's quiet enough, fairly quick and very easy to pull apart to clean/have a nosy. It's also pretty damn cheap, relatively speaking of course. The elephant in the room is of course the adjust-ability, or lack thereof.

I opened up the case and set the calibration screw to put the grinder in the 'fine' range. There are 40 grind settings on the dial and I was kind of hoping this would open up at least 10 of these to the espresso range...in my dreams







Even with the grinder optimally calibrated it appears that only around 3 or 4 of these steps maximum are going to be useful for espresso. Granted I've only tried a couple of types of beans so far but the variance between shots with only a single click seems to be very much in the 'do or die' range. e.g. Setting the grinder to '9' as a starting point and dosing 17g yielded just 24g before I cut the shot at 40 seconds. Adjusting the grinder to '10' and again dosing 17g yielded a much more palatable 27g in 26 seconds. All well and good but a single click doesn't leave much room for manoeuvre and I'm guessing I just got a bit lucky with that particular bean. It also has to be said that the 'clicks' and adjustment scale are pretty poorly defined..plastic materials and poor markings means you're sometimes unsure whether you've moved one or two notches.

I'm guessing I'm going to have some good fun trying to adjust my dose/tamp to compensate for the lack of grinder adjustment in the coming weeks. All that sounds a bit negative perhaps but to be honest I am enjoying the challenge rather than being disheartened by it and the price point of the grinder has to be remembered.

Will report back in a month or so once I've got more of a feel for it.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

That is the downside of stepped grinders, the difference one click makes can be too much, then you're left playing with tamp and dose, which themselves have knock-on effects. Still, so long as you enjoy the process and results it doesn't matter - your enjoyment is what counts.

Can these machines be shimmed? I know some grinders can have their adjustment range shifted towards espresso by fitting shims but not sure if that applies to yours. It would at least mean that you have more options before falling off the end of the dial.


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