# Grind into PF: why?



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Question for the experts: I've seen what I would class as well respected members recommend to grind direct into the portafilter. I just wondered why this advice is given, and whether I ought to be doing it. My grinder is a Mazzer Mini with a doser and I can judge within a gram how long to run it for to get my 18.5 usual dose into my 18g VST. What I do though is tare an espresso cup and 'thwack' into that, check the weight really is 18.5 (+/-0.1) then tip into the basket, distribute with my finger edge and tamp with my 58.35 knock flat.

Why, seeing as the grounds are already going into a doser, should I need to cut out the cup stage and go straight into the basket? Just interested and keen to improve if this will help.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

There is no right or wrong. There are a couple of reasons that someone might choose to do this.

1. Speed/efficiency

2. More even distribution/better more fluffy grinds

Both may or may not be relevant to your grinder or prep method.

My EK43 has a really nice even output and I get better results from grinding direct to the basket. If I go into a cup first then I start getting clumps forming. Speedw-sie it's one less step.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

hotmetal said:


> Question for the experts


My answer above may not be relevant as I am in no way an expert


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> My answer above may not be relevant as I am in no way an expert


X = Unknown quantity

Spurt = Drip under pressure

Apropos nothing Spence could be right ;-)


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Haha, ok! I thought ex was a has bean and spurt is a drip under pressure.

I hadn't really thought about the speed aspect. My VST is ridge less so actually it's OK to dose straight in. I can still weigh and adjust if needed. I don't get clumps with my doser. In fact, going from cup to basket probably causes clumps. I've answered my own question!

Cheers


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Interesting post...I have an OCD if you like, have had it for years. I don't like to touch the coffee once it's ground except to tamp it. I give the portafilter a few bumps to level and allow any clumps to break up, bnut I hate handling the fresh ground coffee, I treat it like pastry, the less handling the better. I hate dosers with a passion, because of course "to me" they mechanically "handle" the coffee. If I ever was going to stirr coffee to break up the clumps I would do it with a very thin needle/wire.

My concern (perhaps groundless), is that once ground, the oils are exposed and the coffee is in a particular state where is is prone to being compressed and sticks together. Dosers, thick stirrers, buggering about with the coffee, to my mind only seems to cause more problems. I have this vision in my minds eye of a fluffy "powder" light and airy, homogeneous and even, that when tamped tries to compress as evenly as it can, as opposed to a stirred mucked about uneven powder.

I know, totally unreasonable, but I just can't shake the thought.....so I leave the coffee alone as much as possible.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

I'm with Dave on this. Especially the pastry analogy.

If you are weighing input, just tare your scales with the group handle on them.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

My personal preference caused, I might add by using a Mignon, is to grind into a plastic drinking cup on the scales then transfer to the PF with a cut down bottomless plastic drinking cup in the PF to prevent any spillage.

Reason----- Mignon is prone to clumping and using this method totally alleviates this, I am able to give the PF a little shake if my grinds are one sided without any spillage, IMHO I get an even extraction 99% of the time.

Ian


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Eyedee said:


> My personal preference caused, I might add by using a Mignon, is to grind into a plastic drinking cup on the scales then transfer to the PF with a cut down bottomless plastic drinking cup in the PF to prevent any spillage.
> 
> Reason----- Mignon is prone to clumping and using this method totally alleviates this, I am able to give the PF a little shake if my grinds are one sided without any spillage, IMHO I get an even extraction 99% of the time.
> 
> Ian


Are you using a Naked PF with that? I found a whack on flat of the PF before tamping seemed to work for me (after stirring).


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Are you using a Naked PF with that? I found a whack on flat of the PF before tamping seemed to work for me (after stirring).


Yes I am naked, must be a quirk but I like to see the extraction.

I did try stirring with a cocktail stick but prefer the cup method

Ian


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Eyedee said:


> Yes I am naked, must be a quirk but I like to see the extraction.
> 
> I did try stirring with a cocktail stick but prefer the cup method
> 
> Ian


When I had a Mignon I did try grinding into a cup first until I got a naked PF. It just used to go everywhere till I started grinding straight into the PF and stirring. This seemed to improve my shots massively.

Naked PF is one of the most useful pieces of kit I've bought.

Whether you grind into a cup or directly into a PF it all boils down to what works best for you.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Interesting this, because I find the most clump free, most evenly distributed methinks is using a dosered grinder modified to sweep Clean and centre fill is the best, horses for courses hey


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Interesting this, because I find the most clump free, most evenly distributed methinks is using a dosered grinder modified to sweep Clean and centre fill is the best, horses for courses hey


Have to agree in my experience.

Mignon (doserless) stir grinds in PF

Mazzer Super Jolly (doser) grind straight into PF, tamp straight onto a mound. Nutation is the only occasional add to this routine.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Some interesting reading on powders in the Pharmaceutical industry. For the purposes of the paper, the powders they consider range in size from carafe to espresso and smaller. A lot of it is specific to tablets and capsules, but some of the material covers deformation/compaction an a microscopic scale.

http://www.pharmainfo.net/reviews/compaction-pharmaceutical-powders

My OCD on the whole thing made me do some background reading many years ago now and it simply fed the "beliefs", however unreasonable, because these things are not reasonable. Is finely ground coffee something that should be treated like short pastry, or like choux pastry....I don't know. I just "feel", completely unreasonably, that it's better not to handle it too much?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Some great responses here, especially from everyone called Dave! Well I tried going from doser straight to basket and now wonder what on earth I 'needed' that cup for! Dave C, I get where you're coming from, and when I was round at yours I was impressed with your Eureka and how it dispensed a lovely fluffy mound right into the middle of the basket. However my budget only went as far as a Mini doser for now. Unfortunately Dave CC not a clean sweep modded one. I will try minimising contact and using a tap or two before tamping instead of my finger-based distribution/levelling and see where that gets me. I fear it might lead to spritzers but haven't tried, as a relative new boy I just thought you had to push the grounds around to get even distro. That's what's cool about this forum, you can ask what people do and experiment.

Since getting the 58.35 flat Heft and using my usual method, I have noticed I sometimes get a dead spot in the middle. Would tamping straight onto a mound from the doser not aggravate this though?


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