# Sour coffee with sage the oracle machine



## Crema (Apr 13, 2015)

My friend has had his Heston blunenthal sage (oracle) machine a few weeks and no matter what coffee he uses, the shots come out sour and bitter tasting.

He he runs his machine as follows:

25 second double shot pull after 5 second infuse,

Shot temperature is at 93c

Grind setting is at 29 and he uses 20g of coffee for a 60g double.

can anyone shed light on why this is happening??

He's using fresh coffee and here's a link to the blend he currently uses:

https://www.ovenbird.co.uk/shop/dead-poets-society-blend/

thanks in advance!


----------



## Dayks (Nov 19, 2016)

Crema said:


> My friend has had his Heston blunenthal sage (oracle) machine a few weeks and no matter what coffee he uses, the shots come out sour and bitter tasting.
> 
> He he runs his machine as follows:
> 
> ...


Wow the description of that coffee made me laugh, don't think I've seen another even come close to being that pretentious.

Don't have any experience with the Sage machines, but I would start with trying a finer grind and getting it down to about 40g out in the same time or a little longer.


----------



## WhySoSour (Feb 6, 2017)

Hahaha cheers man, that was exactly what I was about to do next. I'm just starting out on that coffee brewing stuff and excuse my stupidity. Thanks for the help.


----------



## Dayks (Nov 19, 2016)

No stupidity, everyone has to start from somewhere, at least you have decided to try and get some help rather than giving up.

There are a lot of people on the forum a much more experienced than me and others with the Oracle, hopefully we can help you to get some great coffee.


----------



## WhySoSour (Feb 6, 2017)

I have a question. I often see coffee roasting levels such as medium or dark roast. Is it only a taste difference or would I go around different rules when brewing each ?


----------



## Robbo (Feb 17, 2016)

WhySoSour said:


> Hahaha cheers man, that was exactly what I was about to do next. I'm just starting out on that coffee brewing stuff and excuse my stupidity. Thanks for the help.


At least it gave your freind a reason to post after nearly 2 years! Welcome 

Make sure you listen to pink floyd (on vinyl) otherwise you may not get all of the flavour notes.


----------



## WhySoSour (Feb 6, 2017)

Robbo said:


> At least it gave your freind a reason to post after nearly 2 years! Welcome
> 
> Make sure you listen to pink floyd (on vinyl) otherwise you may not get all of the flavour notes.


Do you reckon Pink Floyd on vinyl is the key to the perfect shot? Maybe that's the valuable component I'm missing


----------



## Dayks (Nov 19, 2016)

WhySoSour said:


> Do you reckon Pink Floyd on vinyl is the key to the perfect shot? Maybe that's the valuable component I'm missing


Well that and you also need to drink it while reading The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time, purchased from an independent book store.

It will certainly make dailing in new coffees more difficult.


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Try grinding finer and aim for around 40g out. Try going a bit longer 30-35 secs. See if it tastes better


----------



## Tewdric (Apr 20, 2014)

We need to establish whether it is sour or bitter. If it's sour, grind a little finer and run the shot for a little longer. If it's bitter it suggests over extraction, which means easing off the grind or dose.

It it does take talent to produce a shot which is both sour and bitter!


----------



## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

Pretty much as above is all you need to know but this is worth a read as well:

https://baristahustle.com/coffee-extraction-and-how-to-taste-it/


----------



## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

OK...lets try & see what is happening here.

1 - I have personal serious doubts about the coffee. Is it meeting the flavours you like?. Do you prefer chocolate, caramel taste or lighter fruity flavours. Decide your taste & maybe try a small quantity from one of the roasters advertising on the Forum.

2 - On the Oracle the shot will dispense at circa 22.5 grams. Its preset & cannot be changed very easily.

3 - Sour & bitter are at opposite ends of the flavour spectrum. Sour can mean too low a brew temp & bitter too high a temp. Maybe try at 92C & see what you get.

4 - Grind a little finer to acheive a slower extraction & aim to extract 42 grams finished espresso in 32 seconds incl. 5 secs pre-infusion. Personally I generally aim at 10 secs pre-infusion & extract 42 grams in 39 seconds including pre infusion.

Hope that helps a little.

Come back after trying some of the suggestions & see if we can assist more. Good luck.

BTW think this is better in the Sage forum so going to move it over.


----------



## IBO51 (Dec 22, 2016)

Crema said:


> My friend has had his Heston blunenthal sage (oracle) machine a few weeks and no matter what coffee he uses, the shots come out sour and bitter tasting.
> 
> He he runs his machine as follows:
> 
> ...


Why not get your friend to take advantage of the free Sage White Glove Service. Let them advise him.


----------



## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

WhySoSour said:


> I have a question. I often see coffee roasting levels such as medium or dark roast. Is it only a taste difference or would I go around different rules when brewing each ?


I agree with Ron. Follow his advice. He knows the machine well too.

Roast levels:

Dark roasts tend toward the chocolate/caramel end of the taste spectrum. They are easier to extract. They also tend to taste better pulled a bit shorter because as the shots get longer you start to get more smokey maillard (not nice) flavours. Dark roasts can work better with milk drinks because the flavours persist through the milk.

Lighter roasts tend toward the fruit/floral end of the taste spectrum. They are harder to extract but (if you have the right technique and equipment) you can pursue high extraction yields to get super-sweet juicy espresso shots.

PS. Also dark greasy roasted beans are more likely to stick to the inside of your grinder so you'll need to clean your grinder more frequently.


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Tewdric said:


> We need to establish whether it is sour or bitter. If it's sour, grind a little finer and run the shot for a little longer. If it's bitter it suggests over extraction, which means easing off the grind or dose.
> 
> It it does take talent to produce a shot which is both sour and bitter!


I agree, although I'm guessing that if the shot is producing 60g in 25 secs then it needs to go finer and it's probably under extracted.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The think that's important is that shot isn't tasty . It's easy to get distracted by a perceived taste indicator and then labelling it as under extracted.

It's

Focus on making an adjustment , I would grind finer and reduce the brew ratio and then report back on the taste .

Labelling stuff under or over extracted for relative newbies can be misleading as sour isn't always " under " etc and taste isn't always linear from sour to sweet to bitter .


----------



## WhySoSour (Feb 6, 2017)

Alright guys, update.

Thank you all for involving yourselves in this thread.

I applied the advice of lowering the yield to 40g. For the first time, I lowered the grind setting by a few notches and in the same time (30 seconds total with 5 second pre-infusion)

and didn't get much of a different taste, maaybe a little less sour.

So I tried the second time, I lowered the grind even more, kept the 40 grams out and stretched the time to 35 seconds in total with 5 second pre-infusion.

I got to say, it tasted better. It was more sweet, had a little more taste of its own and such, but it left a dry sensation on my tongue. I believe that's an indicator of some sort









The coffee is indeed very floral, bright and perhaps the word is acidic (although I don't have much experience with the taste of coffee so I might be wrong) and I think it's not something I would

like to drink even if it came out the best it could. I'm still learning the tastes and never thought that there is such a wide range







.

Next I will simply try a darker roast. Chocolatey, nutty and heavy is something I believe I will personally prefer. On top of that I like milk with my coffee, so yeah.

If you think that I am giving up too quick on this exact blend/roast then tell me, maybe I am far away from the intended taste.


----------



## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Buy something from Rave, fudge, signature, mocha Italia, then more people can help you assess if it's you, the machine or the coffee (because it won't be the coffee with any of those) buy direct not via Amazon.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

WhySoSour said:


> If you think that I am giving up too quick on this exact blend/roast then tell me, maybe I am far away from the intended taste.


How many of the next 10 bags of coffee you buy are you prepared to give up on & chuck?

You seem to be getting better results by grinding finer, so keep at it until the taste plateaus, or drops back into sourness again.

Then go back to the plateau grind settings & pull a little longer, maybe 45g.


----------



## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

send him to a coffee tasting course - that way he might be better placed to tune into the flavours, and tell him his roaster is ball aches - there is no way that the flavour will improve with Floyd and the dog in the nightime, Its well known that the flavours will only truly emerge by listening to -











while reading


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

How Rupert laughs at Ovenbird's roasts,

Flavour descriptions sound like boasts,

Though he loves good coffee of any variety

What has it to do with Dead Poets' Society?

Then Rupert starts to get annoyed,

Said he: "I bl**dy hate Pink Floyd!

How can it help the result that's final,

To read a book or spin some vinyl?"

That coffee clearly tastes like toast.


----------



## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

WhySoSour said:


> Next I will simply try a darker roast. Chocolatey, nutty and heavy is something I believe I will personally prefer.


Try CoffeeCompass Brighton Lanes. It has a very broad 'on target' zone. It's easy to extract and good in milk drinks. A little darker but not mahogany. It's also really worth building a rapport with Richard (the boss at CC) once he gets to know what you like, he can point you to some interesting things.


----------



## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

hotmetal said:


> How Rupert laughs at Ovenbird's roasts,
> 
> Flavour descriptions sound like boasts,
> 
> ...


Straight to the roaster the sage and Rupert scramble

Sir the flavours taste of wood and sandals!

Its not your fault, the roaster beckons

these beans there not for espresso

Now if you want the flavour out

Then Rupert- give kieth Floyd a shout

So Sage does some dark magic tricks

And summons from the BBC

Floyd and Pork and black eyed beans.


----------



## WhySoSour (Feb 6, 2017)

jimbojohn55 said:


> Straight to the roaster the sage and Rupert scramble
> 
> Sir the flavours taste of wood and sandals!
> 
> ...


Standing ovation for you guys haha !









"Its not your fault, the roaster beckons

these beans there not for an espresso"

Are they really not? - Rupert reckons

He must have been deceived,

by Pink Floyd and the presentation


----------



## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

The built in grinder may not be doing you too many favours - Just a thought for the future


----------



## WhySoSour (Feb 6, 2017)

Does it have a bad reputation?

Also the previous comment about using the wrong coffee, could that be it?

Thanks.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The typical knee jerk reaction is ''i must change the coffee'' Often thats the least of the problem


----------



## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Well - I have heard its not brilliant - but I have not owned one - packing a grinder into a small form factor is not a good thing in my mind, its often a question of Burr size and speed, for eg commercial grinders have at least 63mm burrs - Mazzer, Eureka, Compak, etc

As for the beans - again I don't know them - but they could be a dodgy roast, old or just pants, that's why people say get some from Rave - then at least they will know the quality and the tasting notes.

I really would go on a good coffee tasting course - or even an espresso course - but make sure its somewhere with a top draw reputation. you need a quality barista who can let you taste under and over extracted coffee

Also try separating the shot into three separate parts at 10sec interval during extraction then tase the start middle and end of the shot - each should be different.

and keep asking questions as you go - it will save you a lot of heart ache.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

WhySoSour said:


> Does it have a bad reputation?
> 
> Also the previous comment about using the wrong coffee, could that be it?
> 
> Thanks.


No one can agree on what the right coffee is, so don't expect them to have any better luck identifying the "wrong" coffee. 

Get used to trying to get the best out of the coffee you have. The right grind works for most coffee (but might be different for each one).


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

MWJB said:


> You seem to be getting better results by grinding finer, so keep at it until the taste plateaus, or drops back into sourness again.
> 
> Then go back to the plateau grind settings & pull a little longer, maybe 45g.


I'm with this guy, try the 45g out.

I'm pulling 18g=>45g in 44 secs at the moment


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

try pulling a short shot......make the shot as you would.....start the pour into cup one and capture the first 6 seconds or so, then capture the next 20 or so in another cup then whatever is left in the shot in another cup. Taste all 3 and tell us what you think


----------



## WhySoSour (Feb 6, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> try pulling a short shot......make the shot as you would.....start the pour into cup one and capture the first 6 seconds or so, then capture the next 20 or so in another cup then whatever is left in the shot in another cup. Taste all 3 and tell us what you think


Each one of them was unbelievably sour and disgusting... Lol


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

WhySoSour said:


> Each one of them was unbelievably sour and disgusting... Lol


Under, underer & underest.

Carry on methodically & repeatably. But if you want to try David's idea best to go for a region where you run a chance of getting a change in extraction. Maybe 4-5 portions of ~15g each. Taste #1, then add #2 stir & taste, then add #3 to 1&2 stir & taste ...& so on.


----------



## WhySoSour (Feb 6, 2017)

It's also interesting how the coffee beans themselves smell kind of sour lol.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Is it a natural process coffee ??


----------



## Dayks (Nov 19, 2016)

Says washed on the page.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

WhySoSour said:


> It's also interesting how the coffee beans themselves smell kind of sour lol.


Don't read too much into that. What was the last shot like? (taste & weights)


----------



## Roobarb (Jan 8, 2018)

Pages 2 and 3 of this thread were so entertaining, it deserves resurrection.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Roobarb said:


> Pages 2 and 3 of this thread were so entertaining, it deserves resurrection.


Don't worry , there will be another " my coffee is sour " bus coming along shortly, I am sure.


----------



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

My current bean has gone very bitter - no worries I do know why.







The next shot will be even worse.

John

-


----------

