# (Brand) Newbie Questions



## migs (Dec 20, 2014)

I apologise in advance that these will certainly have been asked before, but I'm all googled-out and thought I'd ask them all in one place as I can't find consistent answers to some of the questions.

First, some background. I've been using a Bialetti stovetop for about 25 years, so I'm not new to coffee. However, my wife finds the output from the Bialetti a bit too much for her taste and, besides, I can't trust her not to let it boil dry...

Anyway, she had the idea to buy a machine so she sould have a proper go at making herself a latte/cappuccino/whatever. I'd have been happy to spend proper money, as I know what a difference it can make, but that was never going to happen, so we ended up with a De longhi EC330S as a sort-of compromise. I know the machine has several limitations, as any consumer model will, but it's what we have to work with.

My questions are these -

1. What texture should the grind be? For the Bialetti, I've found that a castor-sugar-like grind has worked best, but I realise it'll need to be finer for the machine. Any guidance on what to look/feel for?

2. Re the above, I know the grind will affect the flow, as will tamping. No tamping is necessary for the Bialetti, but I have an Espro calibrated tamper on the way for the machine. My question though, is whether the pull time is from when the button is hit to start the extraction or from the time the first drop hits the cup? Nobody seems to ever clarify this.

3. For now, until my new tamper arrives, I'm stuck with the almost-useless thing on the machine itself. If anybody has any advice whatsoever on that thing, I'd appreciate it.

4. Re points two and three, I'm finding the extraction is only about 16 or 17 seconds and isn't a great espresso, although it's drinkable. Should I prioritise the grind or the tamping?

5. Why am I not in charge in my own house?

I love my Bialetti, but I'm happy to give the machine a go, if only for the convenience when making consecutive drinks. At present, though, I'm quite ambivalent towards it. It may be that I've been spoiled by the Bialetti, and nothing else will be good enough, but I'm obliged to try like it was in my wedding vows.

Sorry, I should add that I'm using a non-pressurized double basket, rather than the "Enhanced crema" thing that comes with the machine.

Once again, sorry to make you answer these questions again and again, but I'm struggling.

Cheers

migs


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Welcome, it's a journey but the arrival is worth the cost of the trip.

1 Finer than table salt but not as fine as talc, just a hint of grittiness

2 Pull time is from when you push the button.

3 I would suggest you do your best with what you have as consistency of tamp will arrive with your Espro.

4 Try tamping the same every time and alter the grind.

5. It's rather a novelty for me but for fear of being too offensive, I'll decline answering No5

Ian


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Hi Migs - welcome to the forum.

To answer Q2.... Time from the moment you press the button.

Q4. The grind - grind finer for a longer extraction. (Aim for 26-30 seconds as a starting point - you can experiment later) Just stay consistent with your tamping routine and pressure.

Q5. You're the male.









Q1 - you will find this out by experimenting with the answer to Q4.


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## migs (Dec 20, 2014)

Thanks to both for the prompt answers, it's much appreciated.

I'll do some more testing and let you know.

I do wonder, though, if my current grinder might not cut it*

migs

*baddum tish


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

I forgot to mention, weigh your ground dose and weigh your output. Try a ratio of 1:1.6 and alter to taste.

Ian


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## migs (Dec 20, 2014)

I never even thought about weighing the output. Thanks for the tip.

migs


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Aim to get your shot completed in around 27 secs from when you hit the brew button. A normale espresso is in the ballpark of 1:2 and a ristretto is 1:1.5. As an example, for a dose of 18grms, a normale would be 36grms of espresso in your cup whereas a ristretto would be 27grms - both extracted in same time frame.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Does this machine have a pressurised PF and basket ? If so ratios and extractions times aren't as pertinent .


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Does this machine have a pressurised PF and basket ? If so ratios and extractions times aren't as pertinent .





migs said:


> I should add that I'm using a non-pressurized double basket, rather than the "Enhanced crema" thing that comes with the machine.


Yep


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I'll go back to sleep aploz

Opv ?


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## TheDude (May 11, 2013)

This guide give a good understanding about what the texture of the grind should be like?

http://www.sweetmarias.com/library/content/espresso-grind


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## migs (Dec 20, 2014)

No problem, thanks for making the effort.

I had to google "opv" and, now that I know what it is, I can only say that the manual makes no reference to it and nor does googling find any matches for the machine.


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## migs (Dec 20, 2014)

@TheDude Thanks for the link, it was very informative. I do wonder sometimes, though, that if I'd read all the stuff that is involved in pulling a perfect shot before I got into coffee all those years ago, I probably never would have bothered. Of course, it's not so easy giving it up, and is worth the effort...

As for those efforts, here's where things have developed over the past two days.

My grinder, on its very finest setting, is a bit too fine, so I had to turn it down a touch. Much better that than not getting it fine enough but I still think the grinder will end up the weakest link in the process.

The volume I'm now getting, bearing in mind I'm still nowhere near a consistent tamp, is between 29 and 33g, somewhat shorter than normale based on TSK's info, but not as short as ristretto, and I'm okay with that. The weight ratio, based on the 17g the basket holds, is between 1:1.65 and 1:1.8. The calibrated tamp will help when it arrives.

I've also gone from almost no crema in most shots, to a very decent amount/colour.

In short, the quality of the shot has improved beyond comparison in the past 48 hours, thanks to you all taking the time to explain what I needed to do. My wife's eyes lit up with the first sip this morning, so we're on the right track.

My latte art, however, is nothing short of embarrassing. But small steps, and all that.

Thanks to all for your help, I'm truly grateful. It looks like my Bialetti may be put into retirement, and I never thought that would ever happen.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Congratulations, when the Espro arrives it will take a variable from the process and leave you with one less factor to consider.

While latte art is the icing on the cake, the number one priority is for the drink to taste good.

Ian


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## migs (Dec 20, 2014)

Eyedee said:


> While latte art is the icing on the cake, the number one priority is for the drink to taste good


Try telling my wife that


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## steviebee (Dec 22, 2014)

Hello,

My first post so feel free to ignore me.

Something that hasn't been mentioned so far is the temperature.

Leave it a while to heat up (the portafilter should be hot to the touch before you do anything else, you can run boiler water through it to get it to this point more quickly).

Also I don't know how much Delonghi machines have changed in the past 8 years but mine has a very large dead zone in the thermostat. I find running the pump for ~ 10 seconds till the light goes out (saying the boiler isn't at temperature) then locking in the filter and starting the pump as soon as the light comes back on works. This will mean you'll be working when the boiler is at its highest temperature, consistently. This might not be ideal on your machine but mine always ran a bit cold, you can try playing round with timings to change temperature but it's good to have a consistent place to start.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Running water through the brew head will bring it up to temp quicker but without an accurate temp sensor, you won't exactly now the temp.

Overcoming the dead zone in the way you describe is known as temperature surfing.


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## migs (Dec 20, 2014)

It hasn't occurred to me that the temperature might be a problem, it certainly hasn't felt that way at least.

I'll try the trick steviebee has suggested and report back with any differences.

Is this a widespread problem with a lot of machines?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Why PIDs are fitted - to control temp much more accurately.


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## migs (Dec 20, 2014)

I had to google PID, naturally, to find out what it was.

In all honesty, despite the potential for improvement, it's probably not something I'll do on a cheap machine. At some point in the future, perhaps, but not yet.

As with most things in life, I'll hope to get a feel for the machine as I go along, and make adjustments as necessary. Not perfect, but it'll have to do for now.

At least, according to the tracking info, my Espro has arrived in Europe so it might just make it here by early next week.


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## bishbosher (Dec 23, 2014)

Hi,

New starter to this, need to get a tamper. Was thinking of the made by knock heft with strada basket 58.35mm. Any good?

I have seen other cheaper ones but inconsitent size reviews.

thanks


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Good quality but get something else if you're in a rush


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## bishbosher (Dec 23, 2014)

Thanks. They take a while to deliver then presumably?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

You might get lucky and it'll be two weeks,you might get less lucky and it'll be two to three months. Check the knock thread.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

bishbosher said:


> Hi,
> 
> New starter to this, need to get a tamper. Was thinking of the made by knock heft with strada basket 58.35mm. Any good?
> 
> ...


I would read the made by knock thread and decide based on the feedback their


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## bishbosher (Dec 23, 2014)

Had a look at their thread, cant be bothered waiting and chasing so will have to find another means. Thanks all!

I have a gaggia classic with the double baskets, although i know a fast pouring double could be caused by many things, i am going to start by getting a proper tamper other than the standard plastic one. With the aim of trying to avoid getting one too small does anyone have any recommendations? Any that ship with a strada/vst basket?

Thanks


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Tampers don't generally ship with baskets. And very unlikely you'll get a VST or LMS with it as they retail at £20 just the baskets. You'll sometimes get a bog standard basket you didn't ask for when you buy a portafilter though. Coffee chap seems to be the forum's source of Torr tampers and I believe they do a 58.4mm or similar which will do you nicely. I use a Knock Heft with my 18g VST but by the time it finally turned up I'd forgotten I'd even ordered it.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

bishbosher said:


> Had a look at their thread, cant be bothered waiting and chasing so will have to find another means. Thanks all!
> 
> I have a gaggia classic with the double baskets, although i know a fast pouring double could be caused by many things, i am going to start by getting a proper tamper other than the standard plastic one. With the aim of trying to avoid getting one too small does anyone have any recommendations? Any that ship with a strada/vst basket?
> 
> Thanks


Budget?


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## bishbosher (Dec 23, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Budget?


I'd say about the £40 mark for the tamper if possible. I've got a feeling i'll be buying a new grinder soon so that'll rush me a fair bit as im not sure my bodum bistro grinds fine enough.

Thanks


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

You can get a torr for 40 but you'll need to get the basket separately


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Machina espresso sell branded made by knocks which they have in stock and baskets so could get both from there


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## bishbosher (Dec 23, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> You can get a torr for 40 but you'll need to get the basket separately


Awesome, sounds like the way to go. Presumably have to get from europe, http://cafe-kultur.de/collections/tampers?page=1.

cheers


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Coffeechap on here keeps them in stock and you get a small discount for being a forum member. You might need a few more posts before you can message him directly though


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Just let me know which torr you want a basic handle works out at about 40 with your choice of base


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## bishbosher (Dec 23, 2014)

Ok nice one, is this the basic handle? http://cafe-kultur.de/collections/tampers/products/torr-xs-walnut-nussbaum-1

Any other colours out of curiosity?

Im thinking the 58.4 flat, do you know if that fits the gaggia classic/gaggia baby double basket? If there is a better shape base i should be going for let me know as I probably dont know what im on about.

Cheers


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## migs (Dec 20, 2014)

On the subject of tampers, my Espro calibrated arrived today.

5 days to get here from Canada, at Christmas too.

Haven't used the tamper yet, but if it's as good as the customer service, then all will be well.


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## migs (Dec 20, 2014)

Quick update on things.

The Espro calibrated tamper has made a massive difference, as has increasing the dose slightly. Depending on who/what/where you look, a double is indicated as anything from 14-18g. I was running at 14, and it was okay, but some experimentation has led to the conclusion that 16g is the optimum on my machine. The basket seems overly full to the naked eye but, once tamped and pulled, the difference is quite startling.

I'm now getting amazing flavour, great crema and timing at 28 seconds with little or no variation between shots.

I couldn't have got there without the various contributions to this thread.Thanks to all (again).


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