# Descale



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I stripped the e61 today and gave it a citric acid descale (2 tablespoons per litre) . The mushroom was way worse than 12 months ago, some of the chrome plating had been eaten away. I highly recommend you do it every 3 months, even with low TDS water.

Its all hunky-dory again now and I did the steam boiler for good measure again (I do this every 3 months)....lovely blue water and flecks of metal....but its so so easy to do. Benefits are a quicker heat up time and quieter too.

The Brew boiler is the PITA, Im not doing this until I have a half day to do proper flushing. I understand that the brew boiler isnt as critical as water is only heated to a max of 95c and thus mineral deposits are left in suspension, unlike the steam boiler which is 120 odd celcius and thus leaves minerals well and truely behind on the element.


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

What water do you use with your machine Gary? With double boilers it would be good to have a dual feed with nearly pure water for steam boiler and good drinking water for the brew (in an ideal world...)


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I use Waitrose essential water. £1.05 for 5 litres. reasonable mineral content and fairly low TDS. I dont think it tastes as good as volvic for coffee but its loads cheaper.

Reverse osmosis would be the daddy


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## drude (Apr 22, 2013)

Gary, can I ask why descaling the brew boiler is such a mission? The review on BB alluded to this as well, and certainly implied that it's easier to descale Rockets, for example. Curious as I live in a very hard water area.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Its because you cannot fully drain the brew boiler. the descale water goes in bit by bit and when you've finished comes out bit by bit....thus multiple litres of water are required to fully flush all remnants of citric acid.....I did it 12 months ago and it took hours, gving the pump a rest inbetween flushes.

If youre prepared to remove a fitting off the top of the boiler you could use a siphon I suppose, wouldnt want to risk it.

Conversely the steam boiler can be fully emptied once up to pressure by opening the water tap and turning the machine off, when you switch it back on it takes full capacity again of fresh clean water.....nb this still takes about 5-6 empty/refills to remove all remnants of citric acid


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## drude (Apr 22, 2013)

Do you know if that is different from any other similar machine?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I think 'most' dual boilers have the same issue.

These matters are best dealt with prevention rather than cure. Invest in good low(er) TDS water up front and avoid having to descale often.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

This was the only reason i went HX machine after advice from rodney at BB. It said descaling DB was a PITA


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Its funny because Ive just run off some water from the steam boiler and it came out bright blue and tasting of lemonade! It being sat over night with remnants of citric in there....the descale has obviously continued.

Emptied it completely and refilled with fresh and voila...clear clean water.

The steam boiler takes less than half the time to come up to pressure, doesnt make any 'creaking' noises like it did prior to descaling.

Oh and my microfoam texture was off the chart good , shame I didnt photo it for freepourfriday!


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

Have you got a link to a descale guide?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I only have the print out Bella Barista provided with the machine. you could email them and request an e-copy ?

Its a pretty simple process . Check the e61 mushroom - if there is no sign of scale then leave well alone for another 3 months


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

Check out my inards:

















Looks like a touch of scale on the spring and threads but none on the shroom, just a bit if surface corrosion.

I'm surprised at the disparity between ours if you're only using bottled water Gary. I've got an in-line softener from when I had the Fracino.

I've only had mine a few months but it looks like the previous owner didn't use it much...


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

Just re-read your post and noticed the word chrome. Where's my chrome?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Erm , oops.

http://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-equipment-non-machine-specific/28043-e61-mushroom-scale-buildup.html


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

Hmmm.

Well I've ordered some citric acid and going to give her a full de-scale to be on the safe side!

Seems odd that there doesn't seem to be much scale yet the chrome plating has all come off. Perhaps they used something way too harsh?

Also I've read that the mushroom can act as a scale 'magnet' so perhaps the fact that it's down to brass is no indication of general scale buildup in the rest of the machine as the chrome plating will behave differently.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Im still getting blue lemonade water from the steam boiler .........haha.

Ill drain yet again and refill today.......


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

Sami said:


> Seems odd that there doesn't seem to be much scale yet the chrome plating has all come off.


Are you sure it was chromed in the first place?


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

I guess not! Isn't it standard?


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

Chrome's often just for the bits you can see. E.g. how many PFs don't have any on the inside.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The fact the chrome is missing isnt an issue, its cosmetic. However if it has previously been chromed (the majority e61 mushroom are) and isnt now then its been heavily scaled in the past


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

Chrome would be nice though, or better still... Gold.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Have you taken the Citric plunge yet, Sam ?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Have you taken the Citric plunge yet, Sam ?


Whats's that Gary? some new Hasbean limited edition


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Lol. I have heard worse names for blends.


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Have you taken the Citric plunge yet, Sam ?


Not yet. Ordered some off eBay and got it through yesterday. Maybe this weekend...


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Hmm pretty sure I need to do this on my Cherub but not guides or instructions available.

Gary do you just start by unscrewing that giant nut at the top of the e61? I have a similar big nut and it seems like a good place to start.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

little screw on top of the bigger one first....then the big one


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

I'm plunging...


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

Still taking the citric plunge. This really is a PITA...


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Prevention is so much better than cure


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

Would citric acid work to remove scale from filter baskets? I notice that my basket's holes seem to have a bit of scale on them. Would any food grade citric acid work?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Foodgrade Citric acid (aka sour salt) will remove scale from anything but be careful as some surfaces will tarnish.

scale in filter baskets? wow, never heard of that . Have you checked the machine for scale?


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

It's a VST basket. I notice when I look very closely from the underside, the holes look like they have slight amount of scale in each hole. It's due to when they're washed with tap water. The machine itself is fed brita and descaled monthly.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

As others have said Brita filters are not very effective at removing scale forming components but without expensive filtration it is about as good as it gets.Try using Puly caff, I know it is not a descaler but it does a good job cleaning up my basket. PS I also use a Brita filter.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Just done my 1st descale on a 4 month old HX machine which i thought probably didn't really need doing as for 2 months i used Volvic and the other 2 with Brita. was i wrong, absolutely! 1/4 more steam power and far quicker heat up time. You forget over the months how your machine should be.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm late to this thread but thought I would post my solution.

I use a 3M scalegard professional filter cartridge plumbed into my kitchen sink filter tap. It's very easy to fit if you have an existing filtered water tap; you just need push connectors to connect the larger diameter commercial tubing to the usually smaller diameter domestic tubing. I recommend getting the flow counter as well so you know when the cartridge is due for replacement. It's much cheaper than buying bottled water, and compared with what we are prepared to spend on our espresso vice, really it's a low cost upgrade.

You can get the cartridges and head unit here: http://www.3mdirect.co.uk/scalegard-pro-h-p195bh-cartridge.html and the tubing and push connectors from coffeehit. They are often on eBay too but I've always had reservations about that source.


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## mym (Sep 15, 2009)

How long does it last?


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## JKK (Feb 19, 2014)

garydyke1 said:


> I think 'most' dual boilers have the same issue.
> 
> These matters are best dealt with prevention rather than cure. Invest in good low(er) TDS water up front and avoid having to descale often.


Hello

Isnt there a way where you can unscrew the feed to the brew boiler, and fill with

descale, then syphone of syringe the stuff out from the open top

of the boiler.

Cant remember where I read about it

-JKK


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

mym said:


> How long does it last?


Sorry, late responding.

It depends on how hard your water is because it's a proper softener which also preserves espresso friendly minerals. There are also two versions (one with the suffix BH which is resin based so lasts longer).

The P195BH £158 is rated for 5289 litres at 180ppm. I'm in west london with very hard water (250ppm) and getting around 3800 litres.

The 3m direct site used to have a PDF specification sheet that made all details clearing lauding several litres vs water hardness but it seems to have gone at least for now. I'll post again if I find it.


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Need to find the PDF which gives instructions on how to empty/drain boilers.


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Also a note on not fully draining boilers.. Apparently if you rest machine on its side after emptying as much as you can the conventional way; the boilers will empty fully.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Remember though, If you are a Verona owner, I made Quick Mill put drain taps on extension tubes for both boilers. You can simply place the Verona on a few books, undo a plate at the bottom of the machine, reach under and undo with your fingers 2 drain taps on extensions and drain one or both boilers into a shallow plastic tray. Super handy. Quick Mill didn't want to do it initially, they said they had drain taps at the base of each boiler and sent me a laughable video. The case had to be removed, components removed and then the drain tap opened while a bit of hose was hurriedly shoved on the end with descaler going all over the bottom of the machine.

I mentioned that this wasn't doing it for me and had them put these little taps on an extension tube...it cost extra and interestingly I'm not sure the US variant has them?


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Obnic said:


> Sorry, late responding.
> 
> It depends on how hard your water is because it's a proper softener which also preserves espresso friendly minerals. There are also two versions (one with the suffix BH which is resin based so lasts longer).
> 
> ...


Mym, I have a copy of the PDF if you want to PM me your email address I can send it. The BH suffix canisters have a 40% greater capacity than the standard canisters.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

mym said:


> How long does it last?


Here's the Scalegard Pro PDF specification sheet.

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=66666UF6EVsSyXTtOxfan8TaEVtQEVs6EVs6EVs6E666666--&fn=3M%20Scalegard%20Pro%20range%20EU%20for%20Ma

Edit: hyperlink does not seem to jump when you click on it in taptatalk but it does work if you cut and paste it into a browser.


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

The way to empty an HX boiler (a method invented by myself) is to open the steam and hot water valves, and then attache a bike pump to the steam wand and pump the water out.


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Expo wands are female threaded


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Can't you get those thread gender changing adaptors though?


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Could do, but expo is double boiler. It's not the Steam boiler thats the issue, its easy to do. The brew boiler is the pita one. So slow to drain.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

rodabod said:


> The way to empty an HX boiler (a method invented by myself) is to open the steam and hot water valves, and then attache a bike pump to the steam wand and pump the water out.


The method I use is to switch the machine off once good and hot and then open the hot water valve fully....this drains all the water that can be drained from an HX steam boiler. The only problem of course is that often the water take off point is usually above the base of the boiler and some water always remains. unfortunately there is no real substitute for drain taps, or not getting scale in the first place. The manufacturers of these machines have no descaling instructions worth anything and they pretty much don't care.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Is there an access point for the heating element on the underside of the M/ch ??

Is it possible to remove heating element to completely drain brew boiler ?? (with it packed up for access)


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Descale complete. Probably ran about 15 litres of water through machine. Lemonade taste gone as far as I can tell. New IMS screen and thinner gasket installed. Will put to the test tomorrow morning.


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

IMS screen seems an improvement. Beautiful uniform saturation in the puck with absolutely no channeling after a lazy distribution and tamp. I can conclude that even a monkey could be trained in a cafe when using IMS screen and basket.

Have to say, the descale wasn't as much of a chore than expected. Zero remnants of acid in water this morning. Glad I got that DB after all


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Bank holiday descale, Cafiza flush, SS polish and new Lego 'slayer-vision' installed


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

Hey obnic, I love the slayer-vision, I'll be pinching that idea for sure! It'll save me doing the coffee machine squats every morning.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Nicked the mirror from one of Nic's (wife) makeup compacts - going to be in chub when she finds out - bwah hah ha hah


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Nice,Lego mod . And props on the avatar btw not noticed before ( hicks legend )


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> hicks legend


love all the people all the time.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

" Not all drugs are good, all right? Some of them &#8230; are great. Just gotta know your way around them, is all."


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

"Today, a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration - that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather."


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

drude said:


> Do you know if that is different from any other similar machine?


That is one advantage with the Verona, it has drain tube's fitted to the bottom of the boilers to allow full and quick draining.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

El carajillo said:


> That is one advantage with the Verona, it has drain tube's fitted to the bottom of the boilers to allow full and quick draining.


So does the Sage and they are even easier to access from the front of the machine and they drain into the drip tray.


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