# Rocket R58 v Mozzafiato type R



## Gonze

Hi All, I currently have a rancilio Silvia with PID but the time has come to upgrade!!

After many many hours of reading I've narrowed it down to either the Rocket R58 or the Rocket mozzafiato type R.

Has anyone been in a position to compare the new mozzafiato type R against the R58?

I prefer the black dials and the easier de-scaling of the type R, but then like the idea of having full temperature control over both group head and steam on the R58.

I drink predominantly espresso with maybe one milky drink a day. Would I as a non professional coffee taster be able to taste/see the difference in the glass between the two machines?

all advise and tips will be greatly received thanks


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## kennyboy993

This is essentially the dual boiler vs HX question - well discussed on here ;-)

As a prosumer E61 HX owner I love my machine and make great coffee - however every time a shot tastes a bit off I get paranoid about whether it could have been brew temperature problem.

Nearly every time I've corrected it with some other adjustment in workflow - usually different ratio or grind..... but, and herein lies the issue with HX for me, without a brew PID I never REALLY know what's going on.


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## MediumRoastSteam

If you drink mainly espresso with the occasional milk drink, would a Bezzera Unica or ECM Classika be a better suit? They are both e61 machines, with PID, but are also single boiler, so you would have the same routine as the Silvia for preparing a milk-based drink.

Saying that, after parting with my single boiler machine, I have started to appreciate milk drinks much more.

So, as Kennyboy says, HX or DB. And that's the million dollar question.


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## Tiny tamper

kennyboy993 said:


> This is essentially the dual boiler vs HX question - well discussed on here ;-)
> 
> As a prosumer E61 HX owner I love my machine and make great coffee - however every time a shot tastes a bit off I get paranoid about whether it could have been brew temperature problem.
> 
> Nearly every time I've corrected it with some other adjustment in workflow - usually different ratio or grind..... but, and herein lies the issue with HX for me, without a brew PID I never REALLY know what's going on.


Do you feel that the different owners can learn to tweak things that are machine dependent and therefore be equal, so in experienced hands in the case of both machines are all things equal or will the duel boiler always have a few more options due to having that little bit more control over the temperature?

I imagine with a single coffee with experiences users side by side in a blind taste test you couldn't tell any difference but if there were 10 different coffee's say at some point there would be a clear difference at some point due to extra dialing in options for the db.

What do you think?


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## hotmetal

Well I don't profess to be an expert, and it could be said I'm somewhat biased as an R58 owner. Also I've never owned a HX machine. I'm actually inclined to believe that theoretically, in a blind test, it might not be possible to tell the difference between a shot pulled on a Silvia, HX or R58, assuming all shots were as good as could be from each machine. But I'd bet my last bag of Rocko Mountain that the R58 would produce a series of consistent shots if the same test were repeated with a series of, say, 10 shots from each machine. I'm not saying an HX couldn't do the same in the hands of someone who had plenty of experience with that machine, but it might be harder to attain.

I went from a Gaggia Classic (with the Auber PID) to an R58. With the R58 you can fiddle with the PID to try different brew temperatures, whereas with an HX you often have to purge the overheated water to bring it down to brew temp. There is a certain amount of guessing and learning involved. Worth remembering that if you intend to use a suitable bottled water (advisable for taste and machine health reasons) there is an extra element of waste with the cooling flushes you have to do on a HX. I run mine exclusively on Volvic or Waitrose Essential Stretton Hills and it has not shown any signs of scale. I'm glad I'm not flushing too much just to get the temperature down! It's also worth remembering that the R58 does allow you to turn the service (steam) boiler off if you don't use it much. An HX always heats the water to steam temp.

I've only rarely bothered to change the brew temp from about 93-94°C (106 on the display). But what I like is that the temperature is stable and repeatable. Rotary pump is quiet too. It's made getting a good coffee the norm rather than waiting for the planets to align.

The Classic was capable of very good tasting shots when everything came together right, but pulling good shots one after the other is what you get with a dual boiler. As far as I can tell (given changes of beans, grinder, skill and other random variables) the R58 makes better coffee than the Classic, but the real thing is just how easy it is to get a very high percentage of good shots.

Like I say, I went SBDU to DB and skipped the HX, so apart from outlining the bit about cooling flushes I can't say more about it as I haven't had one.


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## lake_m

My DB machine requires a couple of warming flushes before arriving at the correct brew temperature. So there's still an element of puddling around at the start. But once the brew head is at temperature, you can pull shot after shot all day.


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## kennyboy993

Tiny tamper said:


> Do you feel that the different owners can learn to tweak things that are machine dependent and therefore be equal, so in experienced hands in the case of both machines are all things equal or will the duel boiler always have a few more options due to having that little bit more control over the temperature?
> 
> I imagine with a single coffee with experiences users side by side in a blind taste test you couldn't tell any difference but if there were 10 different coffee's say at some point there would be a clear difference at some point due to extra dialing in options for the db.
> 
> What do you think?


I think I know what you mean tiny. Yeah IMO a HX can't match the flexibility of a DB as you're only variable is the cooling flush in terms of temp setting. On a modern, well tuned e61 HX like mine (ECM mechanika) I just flush until the flash boiling stops and pull - no matter how long it's been idling. HOWEVER - what if it's a light roast and I want it as close to 96 degrees as I can, or it's a dark roast and I want it down near 90 degrees..... this is doable (in theory) with longer or shorter flushes or longer or shorter waiting time after the flush. But you need to be up for it - and even then it's a guess.

So yes maybe this isn't for everyone.

Huge generalisation - if you want to get the best from single origin coffees and often change them, perhaps you'd be better off with a DB.


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## kennyboy993

hotmetal said:


> Well I don't profess to be an expert, and it could be said I'm somewhat biased as an R58 owner. Also I've never owned a HX machine. I'm actually inclined to believe that theoretically, in a blind test, it might not be possible to tell the difference between a shot pulled on a Silvia, HX or R58, assuming all shots were as good as could be from each machine. But I'd bet my last bag of Rocko Mountain that the R58 would produce a series of consistent shots if the same test were repeated with a series of, say, 10 shots from each machine. I'm not saying an HX couldn't do the same in the hands of someone who had plenty of experience with that machine, but it might be harder to attain.
> 
> I went from a Gaggia Classic (with the Auber PID) to an R58. With the R58 you can fiddle with the PID to try different brew temperatures, whereas with an HX you often have to purge the overheated water to bring it down to brew temp. There is a certain amount of guessing and learning involved. Worth remembering that if you intend to use a suitable bottled water (advisable for taste and machine health reasons) there is an extra element of waste with the cooling flushes you have to do on a HX. I run mine exclusively on Volvic or Waitrose Essential Stretton Hills and it has not shown any signs of scale. I'm glad I'm not flushing too much just to get the temperature down! It's also worth remembering that the R58 does allow you to turn the service (steam) boiler off if you don't use it much. An HX always heats the water to steam temp.
> 
> I've only rarely bothered to change the brew temp from about 93-94°C (106 on the display). But what I like is that the temperature is stable and repeatable. Rotary pump is quiet too. It's made getting a good coffee the norm rather than waiting for the planets to align.
> 
> The Classic was capable of very good tasting shots when everything came together right, but pulling good shots one after the other is what you get with a dual boiler. As far as I can tell (given changes of beans, grinder, skill and other random variables) the R58 makes better coffee than the Classic, but the real thing is just how easy it is to get a very high percentage of good shots.
> 
> Like I say, I went SBDU to DB and skipped the HX, so apart from outlining the bit about cooling flushes I can't say more about it as I haven't had one.


As a HX owner I think this makes sense - nailing the cooling flush for your first shot is one thing, what to do with your 2nd and 3rd shots is another. Again - well tuned e61 HX with lots of brass to stabilise everything then in theory you'd be fine and you'd flush for first shot and then just prep for other shots within 3 mins and don't flush for them - but if they didn't taste quite as good as the first would temperature paranoia set it? Does with me.


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## Gonze

The R58 seems to be the way to go. As I want to keep this machine for years and really do not want to be sat there in 6 months time wishing I had spent the extra £300.

Has anyone used the new 2017 type R machine? Also is there likely to be an updated R58 model anytime soon?


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## MediumRoastSteam

Gonze said:


> The R58 seems to be the way to go. As I want to keep this machine for years and really do not want to be sat there in 6 months time wishing I had spent the extra £300.
> 
> Has anyone used the new 2017 type R machine? Also is there likely to be an updated R58 model anytime soon?


Is there any reason why you are restricting yourself to Rockets and not other machines such as QuickMill Verona, ECMs or Profitecs? Just wondering.

And yes, if you are thinking of feeding bottled water with ideal mineral content so it won't scale your machine, I'd say go for a Dual Boiler machine.

Have I mentioned Londinium LR yet? :







:


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## hotmetal

I'm kind of inclined to agree - go straight for the DB if you can. It doesn't have to be Rocket, there are similar machines from Profitec, Isomac, Alex Izzo and Quickmill. I think the R58 is the only one that has a detachable PID display, but the other machines may have other advantages. They're all awesome so it's worth looking at them all and deciding which is the best deal for your preference.

I'm not aware of a direct replacement for the R58 (but then I'm not involved with Rocket so I don't know any more than anyone else). There is a more modern Rocket (R60V?) that does some sort of pressure profiling etc, but as you can imagine it's even more £ and I've not looked into it as I am not much of a 'tweaker'. If you search on the forum there are definitely a couple of threads from people who have them.


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## 7493

I have the same nagging doubt! I like meters and displays to inform me and even though the temperature display may need an offset at least it would tell me the temp is consistent. I suppose I will give in eventually and move to a DB (sigh..)



kennyboy993 said:


> This is essentially the dual boiler vs HX question - well discussed on here ;-)
> 
> As a prosumer E61 HX owner I love my machine and make great coffee - however every time a shot tastes a bit off I get paranoid about whether it could have been brew temperature problem.
> 
> Nearly every time I've corrected it with some other adjustment in workflow - usually different ratio or grind..... but, and herein lies the issue with HX for me, without a brew PID I never REALLY know what's going on.


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## greymda

owning Gaggia, Rancilio Silvia with PID and now a HX i would say go for DB









you get same E61 group benefits WITH the user-friendly temperature control!


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## Gonze

Just unpacked a shiny new R58


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## kennyboy993

Nice one - lovely bit of kit


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## martinc

I'm having this same conundrum right now! I've seen a temperature probe for an E61 head which you can apparently fit yourself - see here - https://www.chriscoffee.com/E61-Group-Digital-Thermometer-Adapter-p/sss-04.htm

Perhaps that would take some of the guesswork out of using a HX?


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## ATZ

martinc said:


> I'm having this same conundrum right now! I've seen a temperature probe for an E61 head which you can apparently fit yourself - see here - https://www.chriscoffee.com/E61-Group-Digital-Thermometer-Adapter-p/sss-04.htm
> 
> Perhaps that would take some of the guesswork out of using a HX?


Ditto! A new HX or wait out for a second hand DB!? Budget doesn't stretch to the likes of a new R58


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## Scubasteve

What did you decide in the end? Am thinking of a purchase right now


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## hotmetal

The OP bought an R58. I don't know if the last 2 contributors have chosen yet.


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