# Brew ratio



## emc2 (Aug 21, 2016)

It has taken a while to understand brew ratio's and to realise that the ideal brew ratio can vary significantly. I have been trying to pull a double ristretto for a flat white with very poor results. Quite by accident I pulled a lungo with a brew ratio of >1:3 (18g in 54g out, 30 seconds, 93 degrees)- the best tasting shot I ever made. It was complex and surprisingly sweet. I expected it to be bitter due to the greater extraction. The espresso pulled at 1:2 was in fact more bitter! I have been using Ancoats Warehouse City seasonal espresso.

What exactly determines brew ratio's? Is it the type of roast or is it a property of the bean? Do the ratio's change with the batch for the same blend? It would be helpful to know your experiences.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Double ristretto?? Ristretto is 1:1 ratio, so with a dose of 18grms, that's 9grms in each cup. Much easier to pull under-extracted (sour/sharp) shots when making ristrettos. Sounds like your 1:3 was sweet and your 1:2 was possibly over-extracted if it was bitter. Try opening the grind a tad for 1:2 and see if that helps.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

If a coffee is more soluble you can pull shorter ratios for a stronger, but balanced drink, the less soluble it is the longer you might have to pull to balance it (but the drink will be weaker). However, you may find a Goldilocks zone where ratio need not vary greatly but you can balance a range of beans.

Ratio sets the target strength, at a balanced flavour. That is the key, the balance of flavour is driven by grind setting at whatever ratio you use (unless the ratio is so short you can't pass enough water through the puck to achieve balance).


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I wouldn't get hung up on the name of drink . Brew what tastes good .


----------



## emc2 (Aug 21, 2016)

Thanks. I was trying to pull a 1:1 ratio, 18g in 18g out but the results were not great.

The 1:2 was pulled at the same grind setting but the brew time was 25 seconds... I expected the 1:3 to be more bitter but it was sweeter. This does not make sense to me.

I have tried these ratios again with the same result.



The Systemic Kid said:


> Double ristretto?? Ristretto is 1:1 ratio, so with a dose of 18grms, that's 9grms in each cup. Much easier to pull under-extracted (sour/sharp) shots when making ristrettos. Sounds like your 1:3 was sweet and your 1:2 was possibly over-extracted if it was bitter. Try opening the grind a tad for 1:2 and see if that helps.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Just coz something has a name ( ristretto ) doesn't guarantee you like it . Stick with the brew ratio you like .


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

emc2 said:


> Thanks. I was trying to pull a 1:1 ratio, 18g in 18g out but the results were not great.
> 
> The 1:2 was pulled at the same grind setting but the brew time was 25 seconds... I expected the 1:3 to be more bitter but it was sweeter. This does not make sense to me.
> 
> I have tried these ratios again with the same result.


There's no reason why a 1:3 shot would be bitter, unless your grind was dialled in for a much shorter extraction and 1:3 was over-extracting (probably somewhat unlikely in a lot of scenarios). It sounds like your grind setting/prep/etc works fine at 1:3, you'll probably need to go somewhat finer to maintain the sweetness at shorter (& stronger) shots.


----------



## emc2 (Aug 21, 2016)

Ah! I see the error of my ways.. I thought that higher ratios are always bitter as I presumed the bitter bits are extracted last.

So essentially the ratio determines strength and the grind size determines balance. If the shot is bitter at a certain ratio and brew time, reducing the grind size would correct the balance.

Is my interpretation correct?



MWJB said:


> If a coffee is more soluble you can pull shorter ratios for a stronger, but balanced drink, the less soluble it is the longer you might have to pull to balance it (but the drink will be weaker). However, you may find a Goldilocks zone where ratio need not vary greatly but you can balance a range of beans.
> 
> Ratio sets the target strength, at a balanced flavour. That is the key, the balance of flavour is driven by grind setting at whatever ratio you use (unless the ratio is so short you can't pass enough water through the puck to achieve balance).


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

emc2 said:


> Ah! I see the error of my ways.. I thought that higher ratios are always bitter as I presumed the bitter bits are extracted last.
> 
> So essentially the ratio determines strength and the grind size determines balance. If the shot is bitter at a certain ratio and brew time, reducing the grind size would correct the balance.
> 
> Is my interpretation correct?


Focus more on the ratio than a specific time to the second, but yes, changing the grind size steers the flavour balance...bitterness can be over-extraction, but there can also be less sweet, drier flavours on the low side. If you were over-extracting at a long ratio, you could either pull a shorter ratio, or coarsen the grind to reduce extraction at the longer ratio. Safest to grind finer until you hit sweetness, then if you go still finer and get persistent bitterness/dryness, back up coarser again.

We grind finer when we want to pass less water through the coffee (shorter ratio), grind coarser for a longer drink (all else, or as much that can be, being equal).


----------



## emc2 (Aug 21, 2016)

Sorry, but I am truly lost... I tried reducing the grind size to get a 1:2 to see what happens- 18g in 34g out, 30 seconds. Grinding finer did not increase the sweetness but in fact it was completely lacking. Extracting it for 35 seconds to get a 1:3 brew ratio increased the sweetness. The taste was similar to the 1:3 I pulled at a coarser grind at 30 seconds. It seems to me that brew ratio does matter for balance as well.

Am I missing something here.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

emc2 said:


> Grinding finer did not increase the sweetness but in fact it was completely lacking.


Issue may be with your grinder vis a vis grind particle size consistency. If you've found your sweetspot at 1:3 - stick with it.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

emc2 said:


> Sorry, but I am truly lost... I tried reducing the grind size to get a 1:2 to see what happens- 18g in 34g out, 30 seconds. Grinding finer did not increase the sweetness but in fact it was completely lacking. Extracting it for 35 seconds to get a 1:3 brew ratio increased the sweetness. The taste was similar to the 1:3 I pulled at a coarser grind at 30 seconds. It seems to me that brew ratio does matter for balance as well.
> 
> Am I missing something here.


What this means is that your grind is not fine enough to hit the same flavour balance at 1:2. Maybe you need to grind finer, maybe your prep/machine/set up limits you to shots longer than 1:2. Don't beat yourself up making 1:2 shots you don't like if 1:3 is easier for you.

However, lots of folk can get a balanced shot at 1:2...or even up to 15 or 16:1 if you're talking brewed. The ratio & strength changes massively, but the range of balance for extraction changes very little.


----------



## Justin Fellows (Jan 14, 2020)

Just about to move onto Ancoats Warehouse after experimenting with their free samples.

I had issues for the first week and im a mere beginner. The coffee beans once they were 7 days old made a difference!

Ive been getting

7 second infusion and 24 seconds pour not sure how to get it to pour for longer yet.

Keep going yed down

Justin


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Justin Fellows said:


> Just about to move onto Ancoats Warehouse after experimenting with their free samples.
> 
> I had issues for the first week and im a mere beginner. The coffee beans once they were 7 days old made a difference!
> 
> ...


 What is your brew ratio?

Can you not grind finer?


----------



## Justin Fellows (Jan 14, 2020)

MWJB said:


> What is your brew ratio?
> 
> Can you not grind finer?


 18 grams and grind 4

Just changed to Warehouse and that wont work only 21 seconds including infusion will have go finer now

Justin


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Justin Fellows said:


> 18 grams and grind 4
> 
> Just changed to Warehouse and that wont work only 21 seconds including infusion will have go finer now
> 
> Justin


 OK 18g in the basket, but to know the brew ratio we need to know how much in the cup. Then divide that by the dose. You must be aiming for a certain weight in the cup?

Don't worry about including/excluding preinfusion, just tell us how log you ran the pump for to get


----------



## Justin Fellows (Jan 14, 2020)

MWJB said:


> OK 18g in the basket, but to know the brew ratio we need to know how much in the cup. Then divide that by the dose. You must be aiming for a certain weight in the cup?
> 
> Don't worry about including/excluding preinfusion, just tell us how log you ran the pump for to get


 I didnt measure in the cup this time as it everything had been working okay previously around double the dose.

It runs automatically so it ran from pressing to finishing for 21 seconds.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Justin Fellows said:


> I didnt measure in the cup this time as it everything had been working okay previously around double the dose.
> 
> It runs automatically so it ran from pressing to finishing for 21 seconds.


 Everything works until it doesn't 

Don't use the automatic mode, use the manual mode & aim for a consistent weight in the cup. I'd start off at 80g and work shorter/finer if you need it stronger, or to go in a milk drink.


----------



## Justin Fellows (Jan 14, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Everything works until it doesn't ?
> 
> Don't use the automatic mode, use the manual mode & aim for a consistent weight in the cup. I'd start off at 80g and work shorter/finer if you need it stronger, or to go in a milk drink.


 Ill have a look in my book how to dose manual


----------



## Justin Fellows (Jan 14, 2020)

Hi all,

Been a while but I got there so ive been checking the weight in the cup.

18g coffee

Manual dose 7 seconds infusion and 30g in cup has been decent.

Whats the best way to see if I can improve on what I have? The coffee dose or the weight in the cup? Or would it work either way?

Thanks

Justin


----------



## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

Justin Fellows said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Been a while but I got there so ive been checking the weight in the cup.
> 
> ...


 18g in and 30g out in seven seconds!! I would be aiming for a slower brew with 18g in 45g out in 25-30 seconds and take it from there, you may need to grind finer to achieve it.


----------



## Justin Fellows (Jan 14, 2020)

Hi,

Not 7 seconds thats just the infusion time before it starts to pour.

Thanks, Justin.


----------



## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

Justin Fellows said:


> Hi,
> 
> Not 7 seconds thats just the infusion time before it starts to pour.
> 
> Thanks, Justin.


 Sorry miss read the post!


----------



## Justin Fellows (Jan 14, 2020)

Its fine if wanted to make a finer adjustment do you think I should change the weight in the cup or the grind weight?

Or do you think I can use either of these methods?

Justin


----------



## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

Justin Fellows said:


> Its fine if wanted to make a finer adjustment do you think I should change the weight in the cup or the grind weight?
> 
> Or do you think I can use either of these methods?


 I wouldn't say you need more grind weight, go with weight in cup but same brew time.


----------



## Justin Fellows (Jan 14, 2020)

Ooh thats confused me

Ive gone more manual so weigh 18grams of coffee. The I stop the pour when ive got the weight to say 30g in the cup but not sure how I can affect time?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

If 18:30 is decent, why don't you just try small grind changes?

What is it you are looking to change in the flavour balance of the shot?


----------



## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

Justin Fellows said:


> Ooh thats confused me
> 
> Ive gone more manual so weigh 18grams of coffee. The I stop the pour when ive got the weight to say 30g in the cup but not sure how I can affect time?


 just increase the weight in the cup until your happy withe the taste.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dalerst said:


> just increase the weight in the cup until your happy withe the taste.


 That's a valid way to go but Justin says that the 30g output is decent, which suggests he is reasonably happy with the taste & strength.

More weight out will make the shot weaker, maybe not by enough to impact, but agree it is the simplest way to extract more.


----------



## Justin Fellows (Jan 14, 2020)

I think I'am starting to understand the process better so im asking to experiment. Its decent / nice but I will only know if it can be better by trying. Going manual with cup weight has made coffee life a lot simpler.

Its a Sage Barista Pro. Changing the weight in the cup is easier Id say as the grind is harder to determine in small steps with the dial.

If I want 30g in the cup I have to stop it around 22g as it keeps going after I stop manually lol


----------

