# Coffee shop shots - Are they too much?



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I was in my local coffee shop yesterday as I needed a bag of beans to tide me over the weekend until my Rave order arrives on Monday. I was chatting to the barista about the amount he puts in and out when making espresso. He said he would normally put about 18g in and then make 2 shots from it, each about 30ml (so we can assume ~30g each = ~60g). Now compared to most people on here that's quite a lot more out of 18g than I would expect. When I told him I usually put about 19g in and get 32g out his jaw nearly hit the floor. I also told him that a lot of people on here make it like that and he was baffled.

Today I tried it his way and got my double spout PF out of retirement, poured it into 2 shot glasses and made 2x 25ml ish in about 25 secs. It didn't taste too bad to be honest. It wasn't quite as sweet or complex as I'm used to but not so bad.

Are we just odd on here with out obsession with the 1.6 brew ratio?


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Am I being a little odd or does yours sound more like a ristretto pour?

I get around 60ml from a 18-19g dose. Though with beans like monsooned malabar I'd prefer a shorter shot like a ristretto, need to imo to bring out the oils and tend towards overextraction. Lighter beans like colombian I prefer longer shots and shorter extraction.


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

14g in > 60ml out is the 'traditional' i.e. Italian style way of making espresso.

I tell my commercial clients that if they don't want to reduce the volume out, so keeping ~60ml shots, then they should increase the dose in to improve the quality of that 60ml shot.

It's always going to contain more blonding, and so be more diluted. Essentially the shorter shots will have more flavour & complexity, but 'Italian style' coffees (illy/bei & nanini) in my opinion don't respond as well to being poured shorter.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

The key (as has been mentioned a lot elsewhere on here) is that espresso doesn't weigh the same as water, especially if there's a lot of crema. So a 32g shot could be 50ml in volume meaning we're actually all in agreement. Weight is more reliable which is why we always harp on about weighing coffee in and out 

Edit: just to add as well I believe that quite a few shops tend to overfill the basket and sweep across with a finger to dose. If I did this with my 18g vst I reckon there would be about 20g in there meaning that using a popular ratio of 1.6 means a 'correct' extraction of 36g of espresso. Again allowing for crema that is probably what a lot of coffee shops aim for.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Yeah you might be right.

I've got to admit, when I've bought from here before and made it my usual way it's not been great but this time making it his way it's not been so bad.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

funinacup said:


> 14g in > 60ml out is the 'traditional' i.e. Italian style way of making espresso.
> 
> I tell my commercial clients that if they don't want to reduce the volume out, so keeping ~60ml shots, then they should increase the dose in to improve the quality of that 60ml shot.
> 
> It's always going to contain more blonding, and so be more diluted. Essentially the shorter shots will have more flavour & complexity, but 'Italian style' coffees (illy/bei & nanini) in my opinion don't respond as well to being poured shorter.


By this you mean darker roast and therefore more oily coffees? I prefer them shorter, like the mm, imo, they have richer, earthier, smokier flavours lend themselves more to a ristretto pour.


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

Usually, and typically containing >10/20% robusta too.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

When Mike Haggerton was here, didn't he say that the UKBC regs stated an espresso was 30ml +/- 5ml, inc. crema? 4 shots from 2 basket loads?

Most shops seem to work to a full double basket producing 40-60ml & go with coffees/roasts that facilitate this. At home we can decide where we want to set the ratio depending on how the beans extract, and if we choose to, run into, what was considered traditionally as, more typical "ristretto" territory.

Anywhere I have ordered a single espresso I have been served 20-30ml, twice that for a double...but then, I've never been anywhere that serves fruitier, lighter roasts as their "house" bean. At home, I start at 1:2 and take it from there (unless there is specific info on the bean/roaster to hand)...but then I don't have to explain to customers how I changed beans and their usual 50ml double is now 25ml...and costs more...;-)

Espresso usually (I have heard of people being served "all crema" shots...) only weighs marginally more than water, once you let the crema settle (which it may well have done by the time the customer drinks it).


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

http://www.home-barista.com/tips/espresso-serving-temperature-t18708.html

Not to say that some coffees/personal taste don't lend themselves more to ristrettos though.

Only three memorable beans for me have been pulled ristretto. Bolivia machacamarca(wow that was an amazing bean steve had), El Salvador La Illusion and Monsooned Malabar. Would love to know if any beans had similar characteristics these days, they all seem a bit..clean and too fruity in the cup, not much depth/mouthfeel to them.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

MWJB said:


> When Mike Haggerton was here, didn't he say that the UKBC regs stated an espresso was 30ml +/- 5ml, inc. crema? 4 shots from 2 basket loads?
> 
> Most shops seem to work to a full double basket producing 40-60ml & go with coffees/roasts that facilitate this. At home we can decide where we want to set the ratio depending on how the beans extract, and if we choose to, run into, what was considered traditionally as, more typical "ristretto" territory.
> 
> ...


Slightly changing the subject... What happened with Mike? Will he be back

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Personal differences with another member on here, I don't think he'll be back. It's a real shame.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

I would agree with a few others that it all depends on the beans and the roast, there are some beens i have had, like the Indonesia Sulawesi Kalossi gave the best result was with a very low extraction yield, where as the Peru Tunki Mayo gives a really nice full bodied espresso with extraction yield well over 1:2

I would imagine that if the coffee shops use a more tradition dark roast with around 20/30% robusta then maybe the 18g in 50g out may be Ok, but they also do seam to have a very distinct flavour and very few have that chocolate/fruity mix that most of us on here seam to desire. in some of the very good cafe's they may serve single origin coffee but most of the cafe's round here all seem to favour a generic Italian blend thats incredibly dark. of course there is Costa-packet!!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Coffeeshops which use dark roasts and/or robusta normally do the counter-intuative thing (at least in my mind) and pull longer lungo-type shots which only goes to enhance the bitterness & reduce the body. Often this works out perfectly through milk (so long as they dont nuke it too much) so they are playing to where the volumes of sales is highest...milk is a great camoflague for low quality and poor execution. As we all know its far easier to pull terrible espresso hide it in sweet milk than something drop-dead delicous by itself.

Maybe off topic - I often use shops revered for excellent espresso as a gauge for what I produce at home. Usually laura and I recognise the espresso tastes 'different' to at home, not actually better (often much worse) . Im convinced however that rotary pump flow-regualted produced coffee tastes different to basic vibe, so hard to put into words what i mean though, the extractions look different visually too via a naked filter.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

garydyke1 said:


> Coffeeshops which use dark roasts and/or robusta normally do the counter-intuative thing (at least in my mind) and pull longer lungo-type shots which only goes to enhance the bitterness & reduce the body. Often this works out perfectly through milk (so long as they dont nuke it too much) so they are playing to where the volumes of sales is highest...milk is a great camoflague for low quality and poor execution. As we all know its far easier to pull terrible espresso hide it in sweet milk than something drop-dead delicous by itself.
> 
> Maybe off topic - I often use shops revered for excellent espresso as a gauge for what I produce at home. Usually laura and I recognise the espresso tastes 'different' to at home, not actually better (often much worse) . Im convinced however that rotary pump flow-regualted produced coffee tastes different to basic vibe, so hard to put into words what i mean though, the extractions look different visually too via a naked filter.


Per chance that it doesn't have an opv like a vibe pump does? Can't say I've ever noted anything different to the gaggia classic I had in terms of the extractions looking visually different, but that was a while ago, then again, I was learning with the classic slowly.


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## Milesy (Mar 8, 2012)

My perfect creamy chocolate/fruit balanced espresso 18g to 32ml gets totally lost in a cup of milk. I would need to do lungo type shots, run it well past blonding or use a much higher dose/yield to get a milky coffee here. I only use my espresso machine for espresso now and my aeropress for flat whites.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

RisingPower said:


> Per chance that it doesn't have an opv like a vibe pump does? Can't say I've ever noted anything different to the gaggia classic I had in terms of the extractions looking visually different, but that was a while ago, then again, I was learning with the classic slowly.


It might be the gradual ramp up of the vibe pump pressure, will try and find some videos to highlight what I mean


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

garydyke1 said:


> It might be the gradual ramp up of the vibe pump pressure, will try and find some videos to highlight what I mean


Humm

http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-guide-machines.html

Then again, when I had the classic and mini, all I ever seemed to get was channeling and watery cups, most of the time, even after trying with a needle to improve the distribution.

http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/vibratory-pump-vs-rotary-t6860.html

I do wonder how much of it is perceived. Rotaries are better anyways, for other reasons.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Im glad it isnt me alone who has pondered this, lol


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

garydyke1 said:


> Im glad it isnt me alone who has pondered this, lol


I very much doubt there's much that jim schulman/james hoffman haven't pondered about coffee.


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

the only reason i can think that a rotary is better than a Vib is noise & flow rate, flow rate only applicable on multi head units. both regulate via a bypass valve, one is internal to the pump, one is external, and a big down side to a rotary in a domestic Water tank situation is that if it ever runs dry the impeller vanes are toast.

its a bit like the Conical VR's Flat burr argument, flats are better in home use because the centrifugal force will push a small amount of beens into the blades where as a large conical requires a weight of beens on top.

Back on topic. i would imagine that most coffee shops have much better temp control than we do even with our PID machines, so perhaps changing the temp of the extraction would help with a longer pour as well? i have to agree with gary that most of them do rely on the milk to hide their sins. an espresso from most of the offerings near me are a no go.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Ordering a ristretto in an unkown coffee shop can sometimes stack the odds a little in your favour, reduces the risk of overextraction. I even had one in Costa at Southampton airport that was drinkable (jug of hot water on the side to dilute as necessary).


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

RobD said:


> the only reason i can think that a rotary is better than a Vib is noise & flow rate, flow rate only applicable on multi head units. both regulate via a bypass valve, one is internal to the pump, one is external, and a big down side to a rotary in a domestic Water tank situation is that if it ever runs dry the impeller vanes are toast.
> 
> its a bit like the Conical VR's Flat burr argument, flats are better in home use because the centrifugal force will push a small amount of beens into the blades where as a large conical requires a weight of beens on top.
> 
> Back on topic. i would imagine that most coffee shops have much better temp control than we do even with our PID machines, so perhaps changing the temp of the extraction would help with a longer pour as well? i have to agree with gary that most of them do rely on the milk to hide their sins. an espresso from most of the offerings near me are a no go.


Really? I thought the longer grind path for conicals meant that you didn't have to worry about weight of beans on top, unlike flat burrs which have a much shorter grinding path and therefore need more weight to stop them bouncing around?

The only pain with conicals is the huge burr chambers which contain a bit of coffee grounds. The chute can be easily cleaned.

There's the big grinder test on hb with the robur and conicals coming out on top and I don't remember there being a lot of beans involved?

I thought rotaries are only better from noise perspective and that they can be plumbed. Think they can also be rebuilt easily?


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

on the rotary pumps, the pump heads i have looked at are an eccentric sliding vane that uses the water film to act as a lubricant to the edge of the pump. if it dries out the vanes run on the metal casing and if not stopped very quickly will damage the casing and vanes beyond economical repair.

Conical V Falt, conical will popcorn more and the grind path is only the length that touches the beans, some of the conicals i have seen have such wide starts to the burrs that in sure the first 1/3 will not be doing a lot, read 2 of the HB articles on the Robur v Flats and all comers and it was interesting that the flavour difference was the thing most apparent, but the hybrid conical/flat arrangement used in some Cimbalis and the V3 seam to be the best of both worlds. and Dittling uses a giant flat burr,


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

RobD said:


> on the rotary pumps, the pump heads i have looked at are an eccentric sliding vane that uses the water film to act as a lubricant to the edge of the pump. if it dries out the vanes run on the metal casing and if not stopped very quickly will damage the casing and vanes beyond economical repair.
> 
> Conical V Falt, conical will popcorn more and the grind path is only the length that touches the beans, some of the conicals i have seen have such wide starts to the burrs that in sure the first 1/3 will not be doing a lot, read 2 of the HB articles on the Robur v Flats and all comers and it was interesting that the flavour difference was the thing most apparent, but the hybrid conical/flat arrangement used in some Cimbalis and the V3 seam to be the best of both worlds. and Dittling uses a giant flat burr,


Hmm, most interesting, will have a gander









Don't the robur, kony and k10 have grind paths which are in contact with the beans most of the length?


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Edit appeared to duplicate....


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

You got any links? Struggling to find much.

I know the beans have a long way to travel against the burrs in the k10. Popcorning, is it really an issue on conicals? Once it's got past the top of the burrs, it's still got a very long way to go.

I'd love to try a royal/sj and see how they compare though.

Actually, I seem to recall there was a much smaller conical than the k10/kony/robur which wasn't brilliant, forget its name....


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

if you look for titan project on HB there are about 3 different threads about the Robur and all its potential competition, the strange thing is that some very cheep lowbrow machines did very well.

worth a read if you have a few hours to kill


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

RobD said:


> if you look for titan project on HB there are about 3 different threads about the Robur and all its potential competition, the strange thing is that some very cheep lowbrow machines did very well.
> 
> worth a read if you have a few hours to kill


Ah yeah, I remember that


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