# Bitter as a sherbet dib-dab made with dried Angostura bitters



## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

OK,

Day off today so I thought I spend some time perfecting my espresso/barista skills because with my results to date, either I'm the worlds worst espresso maker or have the taste buds of an amoeba.

Gaggia OPV been set to a pressure of 10bar....check! Gaggia pre warmed for an hour...check! Columbian Suarez beans from Rave and ground out 18g into my IMS basket...check! Nicely tamped...check! run hot water through the group head to warm...check! Connected portafilter and put scales and coffee cup on underneath...check!

OK chaps; chocks away!

Hit switch and stop watch button at same time......coffee coming through, within about ten to fifteen seconds nice single tail. Hit Gaggia switch and stop watch button when 28g in cup. Stop watch read 27.4 seconds. Puck a little wet on top but not excessively so.

So, tamping must have been OK 18g in 28g out in 27 seconds perfect!

Raise to lips and sip.............Pull face like a Dowager taking a dump.

Bitter like 90%+ dark chocolate.

Tried to take a video with our camera of my technique but it doesn't seem to want to load up on here. So considering the input/extraction weight and time which according to the rules seems to be spot on, where am I going wrong, or is it just a case of concentrated coffee is not my thang and I should just stick to lattes? Having said that, the latte had a bitter edge too. I've even tried doing a 16g grind thinking perhaps 18g was too strong but with much the same results.

Oh well at least I can say my latte art is coming on.......well only if the definition of 'latte art coming on' is looking like it's been done by a drunken chimp using a struggling squirrel for a brush!

Don't get me wrong I'm not wasting anything, I haven't thrown away a drink yet, as a jug of steamed milk can hide a multitude of sins. So is it I just haven't found the bean for me? If so what do you recommend considering I've already tried Rave's Signature, Fudge and Columbian Suarez.

Anyway, I'm loving trying this real coffee malarkey, even if it's only because I now have enough caffeine in me to keep Rip Van Winkle awake for a month.







:drink:


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

One thing it might be .

the temperature your re pulling the shot at

If bitter temp might be too hot

one of the classic owners will come on and give the gaggia temp surfing routine they use

i see you have a PID though so what temp was it coming out at ?

Try lowering it ?

The coffee starts coming through at what time ?

If 10-15 seconds then that's too long , giving it the bitter taste .


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Sounds like you're over-extracting. Timing starts when you hit the brew switch not from when first drops appear. So your extraction time is actually 37-42secs. Try backing off the grind to hit same output but in 27secs of hitting brew switch.


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

My PID temp is 91 and I am hitting the timer button at the same time I hit the Gaggia switch not when the extraction starts to come through. The coffee is coming through very soon after hitting the switch; the 10 to 15 seconds is when it forms the single tail before that it is coming out in several places. But I'll try lowering the temp to 88 and if you think the grind need to be a bit courser I'll give that a go too.

Thanks guys.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I'm sure you wouldn't but

Do one thing at a time

Don't Change the grind or dose and the temp at the same time

change one thing , taste , what's its effect ...


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

OK - timing is fine -let's rethink. Bitterness can be caused by temp being too high but if your PID is reading accurately, 91c is fine. Could try backing off the grind a bit and/or tamping a bit lighter to reduce level of over-extraction related bitterness - *if* that's the issue. Other contributor to bitterness is the percentage of fines in the grind. How old are the burrs? Burrs that have lost their sharpness throw off a higher percentage of fines which over-extract and generate higher levels of bitterness.


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

Actually Mrboots2u sometimes I'm a bit of a pillock and probably would have done, so thanks for keeping me on the straight and narrow. Temp first grind second.


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

Now you've got me thinking Systematic.

I don't know how old the burrs are I got my grinder off Coffechap maybe he'll know. OK so setting the grind which has been my biggest problem to date (or at least getting it right) could be it. I'll also ease off on my bread kneading arm when tamping and see what occurs.

Thanks again, it's like having your very own tutors on this forum.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If you've got it form CC I don't think the burrs will be the problem, but you can ask him.

commercial grinders can takes lot of beans before they burrs need changing

Clips are better if you can for grind to extraction.


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Pompeyexile said:


> The coffee is coming through very soon after hitting the switch; the 10 to 15 seconds is when it forms the single tail before that it is coming out in several places. But I'll try lowering the temp to 88 and if you think the grind need to be a bit courser I'll give that a go too.
> 
> Thanks guys.


When I had my classic I would get no coffee drips till about 8-10 seconds after the switch press. How quick is the first drop hitting cup?

Are you really sure its bitter not sour!! I am not thinking your stupid or anything but I really had an issue when I first started, I assumed everything was bitter when in fact it was sour. Anyway was just a thought.


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

also post up a picture of the puck after a shot so people check for any defects


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Arent dib-dabs citric acid, ie sour


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

No problem, certainly no offence taken. It reminded me of strong dark chocolate so I guessed bitter. I'll have another go later as I'm just off to get my flaxen locks clipped and I'll time the first drips then.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

It could be both sour and bitter, could be many different reasons


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

sour does tie in more with your description in terms of when the shot starts

Even when I was getting the right output in the time on the classic I was still sometimes getting sour shots due to channeling.

When you try again look for no drops till 8 seconds or more after switch on.


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

Dib Dabs sour/bitter that's my trouble, trying to distinguish between the two all I know is it aint nice.

I'll take all your comments on board guys and check and report back with a picture of my puck.


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## oracleoftruth (Jan 15, 2014)

Brewdog punk IPA is bitter; cider is sour.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

bitter - dry mouth

sour - wet mouth


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

Here's the puck after the extraction

View attachment 6054


The first coffee came through after about 5 seconds and the final 28g at 24. The puck nocked out with one tap. Definitely mouth dry when tasted. Reminded me of a pint of Theakstones Old Peculiar sort of bitterness. Took the temp down to 89 just to be sure it wasn't too high. Will try a courser grind next.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What was the dose ?

External drop the dose or coarsen the grind

puck looks wet so either could be over dosed or too fine









As from memory the Cuban it's massively dark roasted bean where you might get a wetish puck as normal


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

I cant recall ever getting drops at 5 seconds on my classic seems too early but may be the beans. Your pid would have to be miles out for 89 to be the reason of bitterness. Would be tempted to try at 94 to see what happens

What size ims basket and what dose you using. Think you need to dose towards the top end capacity on tgese. In my 14-20 ims basket always use 20 now whereas when using 18g my pucks looked wet and messy. When dosed and tamped is coffee right near the top of pf


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

If you're sure that the shots are bitter/drying, then pull them shorter, 18:24/25g?


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## Doggycam (May 9, 2013)

Is the PID setting 91 deg measured at the boiler or grouphead ?

If its the boiler its way too low, try 102 deg. The temp will drop to about 91 at the head.


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

Phew! a few questions here to answer but here goes.

I'm dosing 18g into a 12/18 IMS Basket.

Got to admit the grinds after tamping are not at the top of the basket.

Will try and increase PID temp first to 94 then try at 104.

Will try coarsening grinds so puck not so wet and reduce extraxtion time.

Cuban is quite dark.

Try all this when I get home from work tonight.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Don't worry about the wetness of the puck.


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## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

I'm with Doggycam on this. My PID is on the boiler and auberins who supplied it suggest a 9 degree drop off to group head so mine is set at 100 to 104 depending on the coffee


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Pompeyexile said:


> Got to admit the grinds after tamping are not at the top of the basket.


I may be reading this wrong, but they should be at the top of the basket after tamping, maybe before they are tamped, but definitely not after.


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

Hi guys,

Well I've just spent an hour or so trying the suggestions.

I upped the temp loosened the grind in four steps and each time even though I tamped quite hard extraction got quicker and quicker. Still I thought, I'll give it a taste and each time the bitterness got less and less until it virtually disappeared but by then the extraction was coming out like Niagara falls and no crema at all. Tightened up the grind and got a slower extraction nice crema but bitterness raised its ugly head again, even if it was within the 20 to 30 second extraction range.

When the 18g of grinds are put in the basket its full but after tamping its down by the thickness of the tamper and as I say if I put in less than 18g or tamp lighter or grind courser extraction is far too quick.

Having just read another thread maybe using the 1:6 ratio I'm over extracting but when it was weeing out at a rate of knots thus giving a less concentrated drink was why the bitterness disappeared?

I will work out how to put a video on here so you can see exactly what I'm doing.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Be guided by you taste ultimately









clip would help though


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I could be wrong, but I tend to think that you're getting varying degrees of underextraction. If everything between gushers & your bitter drinks are happening at 1.6:1, I'd try pulling longer drinks, try 16g (finer if necessary) at 28-32g out. The 1.6:1 ratio is aimed at a sweet espresso at a given concentration range, if for some reason you're falling short of hitting that range, you'll have to go longer.

Your less bitter drinks, were they sweet or just bland? If you really underextract the coffee can be inoffensive, but weak & uninteresting.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Clip would help, are you using a naked PF?

Bitterness could be caused by channelling (just a guess).


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Grind some of the coffee, pour into a bowl, pour over hot water (just off the boil) . break the crust after 4 mins, taste from a spoon after 9 mins - is it bitter?


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

When the bitterness went away after extraction was super quick the drink just became bland.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Can you tell us a bit about the coffee you're using - variety - roast level -etc. Only reference in your posts I can find is 'cuban being quite dark'. Your puck pic looks very dark too. Are all the shots you've reported on been made using the same bean? Have you tried using different beans - preferably a lighter roast - for comparison?


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Grind some of the coffee, pour into a bowl, pour over hot water (just off the boil) . break the crust after 4 mins, taste from a spoon after 9 mins - is it bitter?


No hint of bitterness just coffee. Now that's what I want.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Pompeyexile said:


> No hint of bitterness just coffee. Now that's what I want.


So the problem is in the extraction then. Two main causes of bitterness are: over-extraction and brew temp too high. As you've checked your PID - would focus on grind/tamp/dose relationship.


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Can you tell us a bit about the coffee you're using - variety - roast level -etc. Only reference in your posts I can find is 'cuban being quite dark'. Your puck pic looks very dark too. Are all the shots you've reported on been made using the same bean? Have you tried using different beans - preferably a lighter roast - for comparison?


Seems the same no matter what bean I've used. Just finished off the Cuban Suarez from Rave which was dark, before that a kg of Fudge and before that their signature blend. Now I'm on Ethiopian Kaffa Forest which seems dark and is described as having lovely floral notes delicious juicy apricot, forest honey and tongue hugging caramel with a deep mocha hit.

My problem systematic is that to get in the ball park of between 20 to 30 second 28g extraction I have to go quite fine on my Brasilia 55. As soon as I coarsen the grind it comes out much too fast even if I increase my tamp pressure. I don't tap the basket or the tamper against the basket as I know this can cause channelling. I stir the grinds to get rid of clumping too.

As I said I will get to work out how to load a video, I don't know why my camera pictures upload OK but when I take a video with it they don't.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Didn't think you should have to stir with an RR55? Sometimes faffing causes more problems than it solves


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Pompeyexile said:


> Seems the same no matter what bean I've used. Just finished off the Cuban Suarez from Rave which was dark, before that a kg of Fudge and before that their signature blend. Now I'm on Ethiopian Kaffa Forest which seems dark and is described as having lovely floral notes delicious juicy apricot, forest honey and tongue hugging caramel with a deep mocha hit.
> 
> My problem systematic is that to get in the ball park of between 20 to 30 second 28g extraction I have to go quite fine on my Brasilia 55. As soon as I coarsen the grind it comes out much too fast even if I increase my tamp pressure. I don't tap the basket or the tamper against the basket as I know this can cause channelling. I stir the grinds to get rid of clumping too.
> 
> As I said I will get to work out how to load a video, I don't know why my camera pictures upload OK but when I take a video with it they don't.


Can you beg/borrow another grinder for comparison purposes? Any forum member in the York area able to help??


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I agree with jeebsy ,your grinder should be capable of delivering a good extraction without the need to stir.

i wouldn't say any of the blends or beans you are using are proper dark roasted . This isn't meant as a criticism it's just in comparison to Italian job or something of the compass beans or union roasted, they are more on the medium to dark side .

At the same time I wouldn't describe those beans as light either ( some SQM and hasbean offerings ) ,so if they are pushing your grinder to its fineness limits then something is happening during extraction we can't see that is driving this .This may not be the case I just inferred this from your comments about making the grind fine , you could be miles away from zero on your grinder,it's hard to tell...

Or it could be you just don't like those beans , cupping as Gary described will give you a idea of how they should taste and whether they suit your tastes.


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

To be honest I don't always stir the grinds as I thought the same, take out another possible culprit. But Because I can't grind directly into the portafilter and basket due to the static issue, I grind into a glass dish and I guess transferring it into the basket using a spoon will maybe cause channelling, I don't know. As I've said I will get to post a video and then you can all have a good laugh pick yourselves up off the floor and tell me where I'm going wrong. I don't mind I've got broad shoulders.....Hah!

Just out of interest I know there are a couple on here with the Brasilia 55 and whilst I know settings will differ from bean to bean I can't imagine there is a huge difference. So saying that, what mark on the collar are some of you Brasilia users set at?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Pompey,

A couple of questions for starters, do you have a copy of the RR55-OD manual or know how to change the time each button will run the grinder for? Regarding dosing into a glass and then into a portafilter, you need to make yourself some kind of dosing funnel from a plastic pot that just sits inside the portafilter and then pour the ground coffee into the portafilter rather than spoon it, or the other thing you can do is once the coffee is in the glass, put your portafilter on the grinder forks, remove the lid of the funnel and simply pour the coffee through the funnel into your portafilter, this will also break up any clumps.

I never had any issues with clumping with my RR55, I think you are possibly grinding far too fine, it's almost impossible to compare grind settings from grinder to grinder as where the zero point is set will most likely be different, as a rough guide I used to use a range between 15-20 on the collar, I also lightly nutated before tamping and never needed to stir the grinds.


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

I think I may have found a factor which is causing me the grief.

I was just reading another thread where measuring the temp at the brew head was given as ideally being about 94C. Well I have checked mine and the best I can get using two separate digital temperature measuring devices I have that I use for jam and marmalade making and cooking meat, even putting the PID up to 108 is 78c hot water coming out. I have a kettle that I can choose the temperature and set it at 90c and checked the accuracy of the temperature measuring devices and they measured 91 & 92 degrees respectively but that could be the kettle so either way they seem reasonably accurate. Definitely not out by as much as the reading I am getting coming out of the Gaggia

Having said that the water in the cup seems flippin hot, I can't put my pinky in and hold it there and I certainly wouldn't want to put my delicate cherry lips to it. So is this the gremlin in the works?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

If you are measuring the temp as it comes out of the brew head then 78c is way too low. The water rapidly looses temperature as it comes out, so the thermometer will ideally be a k-type that gives an instant reading.


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## Doggycam (May 9, 2013)

Increase the temp on the pid, say 1 degree at a time. Allow the boiler to stabilise. Switch on the pump and look and listen to the water coming out the head. Keep increasing the temp till boiling water comes out. You can hear the difference when it is boiling, it will be fizzing like the steam wand.

You will now have found the pid setting for 100 degrees at the head.

Subtract 8 or 9 from this to give a pretty accurate 92 at the head, all without the use of a thermometer!


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