# How to best spend my cash on coffee?



## Guitarcul (Jan 11, 2014)

I have been ignorantly making crap coffee with pre ground lavazza on my Delonghi icona for the last 2 years when it blew up just after Christmas. It broke on my first go of my new Xmas pressie a delonghi k79 grinder which is now servicing an aeropress with lavazza beans.

So I thought I would do a bit of research into this coffee lark and see what machine to get, weeks later having consumed hours and hours of info I am here posting this looking for advice.

My budget is £500 - £700 tops for everything (grinder, machine, tamper, proper cups) and ideally I would like to spend a bit less. My first love is music and I have spent crazy amounts of money over the years on my hifi system and have learnt a lot that probably applies to the coffee world.

If it wasn't for the wife the grinder would be a second hand Mazzer SJ, but the Mignon seems to be a class act and a nice size, there isn't too many of these 2nd hand so around £270 of budget gone if buy one new.

For the machine I am thinking either Gaggia classic with rancillio wand or Fracino Cherub, I can't seem to justify anything in between as S/H I can get a cherub for around 400-450 and can get a Gaggia for £120 with wand, my thinking is spend £250+ on a Silvia I may as well go the whole hog and get the Cherub or save my money and get the Gaggia which doesn't seem to far behind the Silvia.

Usage would be fairly light one cup in the morning before work, one when I return and maybe 3 cups a day on a weekend with the odd one for the missus, she's not a big coffee drinker.

I realise I need to ditch the Lavazza and my first fresh bean order is on its way from Rave.

So.......do I go for classic and mignon and learn a bit before upgrading, do I stick with a classic but get a better grinder than the Mignon or go with the Fracino Cherub and Mignon or is there another genius option I have overlooked.

Thanks, Mark.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I started with a Classic and a Mignon and you can get some fantastic shots out that combo.

If you don't make a lot of drinks back to back then a Classic is a great entry level machine. It has its limitations but for light use they aren't too much of an issue.

A Super Jolly or smaller commercial machine will see you an upgrade or two in machine. While the Mignon is about the best domestic, if you do upgrade your machine in future you'll probably look to change that too. Could be as well saving yourself the hassle now!


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## Guitarcul (Jan 11, 2014)

Thanks Jeebsy, would love to go straight in with a commercial grinder, it makes absolute sense and is in budget, however I have a smallish kitchen (although hopefully moving this year) and I don't think there is room for anything bigger than a mignon.

Regarding your experience with the classic how good is the steaming wand?


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## Guitarcul (Jan 11, 2014)

Unless there is a commercial grinder that has a small domestic footprint and good WAF


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Guitarcul said:


> Unless there is a commercial grinder that has a small domestic footprint and good WAF


Not with the footprint of a mignion ......


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## AliC (Jan 9, 2014)

I am in a similar position to yourself.

Second hand Cherub on its way today, but in dilemma about the grinder like yourself. Considering new Mignon (I'm only 40 miles from Bella Batista so can go in and try before I buy) or 2H Mazzer mini. I prefer the looks and footprint of the Mignon, so tempted to buy new (it pains me) but if I upgrade in 24 months I could sell the Mignon readily for £200 so not take too much of a haircut on the resale. Plus I would have the benefit of a warranty.

That's my two pennyworth. Best of luck which ever way you go.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mazzer mini would be about it. Didn't use the stock steam wand at all but the Silvia wand is fine for enough milk for a couple of small drinks or one large


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

Can do you a brand new Cherub for 645 -I'll throw in some beans to get you started

Andy


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## Guitarcul (Jan 11, 2014)

Ok, looks like the Mignon is the way to go, don't like buying new but holds value pretty well not to take to much of a hit. Would love to get peoples thoughts on how big an improvement the Cherub would be over the Classic bearing in mind my usage. One cup in the morning, one early evening and 3 a day on a weekend.


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Mark - You can't mention the L%vazza word on this forum.... the last person to mention it mysteriously vanished. Some say we fed him to the pigs. You've been warned!

Good luck with whatever machine you choose. Both Classic and Cherub are both great machines by the way. The Cherub being a HX machine will probably keep the upgradiutus at bay longer and save some frustrations if you plan on making lots of drinks in succession. If your the only coffee drinker in the house - and prefer espresso to milk based drinks then the single boiler Classic is a great choice.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok without getting over technical, and it less than half a page . I give it a stab .

Caveat for both for grinder and fresh coffee

Single boiler - classic - longer recovery time between brew and steam . Less temperature stable , steams smallish amounts of milk .

HX - cherub - steam and brew at same time , bigger boiler more temperature stable ( easier and better to extract espresso with ) . Loads more steam power , steam bigger qtys of milk.


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## Guitarcul (Jan 11, 2014)

Thanks [email protected] has been erased from my vocabulary.

Regarding reliability which is likely to give me the most trouble free coffee making cherub or classic and if something does go wrong which of the 2 would be easier and cheaper to fix?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Fracino who make the cherub are a uk company based In Birmingham , and have a good service reputation and parts are pretty easy to get .

Classics last years and years treated well also , and lots of people mod them repair them themselves .

It's a personally experience but I would say it's easier and less frustrating and time faring to make coffee on a HX, but that's not to say a classic isn't' capable , just take longer to make more drinks etc . It's sure as the day wears on the cherub and classic owners will chip in with opinions tot he thread .


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

You don't often hear of many problems with either machine. They are both easily fixed.

I went from a single boiler machine (a Rancilio Silvia - similar to the Classic) to my current HX machine because I prefer milk based drinks. Also when friends come it is so much quicker.

It was an inevitable upgrade in my circumstances and one that has made things so much better. There are lots of forum members with similar stories..... if your even considering the Cherub maybe you should just go for it? If you don't you will always wonder how much better it is.


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## Guitarcul (Jan 11, 2014)

I think with the Cherub it would give me more options/flexibility than the Classic making hot chocolate etc for the kids but not sure if that justifies the extra expense


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Guitarcul said:


> I think with the Cherub it would give me more options/flexibility than the Classic making hot chocolate etc for the kids but not sure if that justifies the extra expense


No problems making hot chocolate for the kids on the classic unless you have 3 or 4!


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Having read your first post and number of drinks and budget (max £700 including grinder) I would go for a classic (started with one myself) second hand from forum member if possible £100 approx. Migon or MSJ (200-£300) then you can still afford some cups nice tamper jugs etc.

Then if like me in a month or 3 or 6 you think you want to upgrade the espresso machine you will loose next to nothing on it.

Difference between £400 outlay to nearer £1000 (or more once you add in bits and bobs) plus you will see lots of people on here have had classics for years and with a good grinder they are more than capable.


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## Guitarcul (Jan 11, 2014)

Thanks for the good advice things are becoming a bit clearer, there is certainly a lot of love round here for the Classic and upgrading isn't a problem if I buy s/h as should get back what I paid for it and if I'm happy and it's a keeper then great I have saved some cash.

Ok so am thinking mignon, s/h classic with rancilio wand is looking like the most sensible flexible option. What other accessories would people advise to a newbie (eg naked PF) and is their any other mods required other than the wand that people feel is pretty essential to getting the best out of the Classic, obviously don't want to spend too much on mods as then may as well go straight in for the Cherub.


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## Guitarcul (Jan 11, 2014)

Also how old would you go on the Classic before there might be potential issues such as new pumps etc being required?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Guitarcul said:


> Also how old would you go on the Classic before there might be potential issues such as new pumps etc being required?


The older ones can be more reliable , on one have been going donkeys years. It's better to check where the have been used , in terms of water softness or whether they have used a water softerner. Hard water is the enemy of boilers .


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## Guitarcul (Jan 11, 2014)

Is there a way you can check the water hardness of a particular area, a website etc or is it case of just asking the seller


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

If you don't have anything for your coffee then I would get;

Milk jug: £15 http://www.creamsupplies.co.uk/motta-milk-foaming-jug-europa-350ml/prod_1804.html?category=491

Tamper: £15 to £100 Motta one or Torr are very popular and are quality

Scales: £7 on ebay

Brush for cleaning ginder

Naked PF is a good idea £28ish

Cups: as many as you want notneutural and inker very popular

Tamping mat

lots of other things you can get VST baskets etc but with the above you will be sorted, plus some of the above you might get with a secondhand classic

What you will learn is there is always something to spend your money on in the coffee world but how much of it is really needed is another thing!!


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## CFo (Aug 25, 2013)

Guitarcul said:


> Thanks for the good advice things are becoming a bit clearer, there is certainly a lot of love round here for the Classic and upgrading isn't a problem if I buy s/h as should get back what I paid for it and if I'm happy and it's a keeper then great I have saved some cash.
> 
> Ok so am thinking mignon, s/h classic with rancilio wand is looking like the most sensible flexible option. What other accessories would people advise to a newbie (eg naked PF) and is their any other mods required other than the wand that people feel is pretty essential to getting the best out of the Classic, obviously don't want to spend too much on mods as then may as well go straight in for the Cherub.


I was in similar place to you 6 months ago, with similar low usage, although I don't really use milk at all. Bought a 2nd hand Classic off Jeebsby, and a 2nd hand Iberital MC2 off another CF member. Got pretty good shots most of the time. Not too happy about the distribution of the MC2, trying to dose into the PF is a messy business, although the grind is OK. Around Xmas started getting upgradititis. Thought about changing either or both the machine and or the grinder. After consultation on here, decided the best bang for bucks was to upgrade the grinder. Bought Jeebsby's Mignon when the forum was down over Xmas as had his email from buying his classic and had seen from here he was upgrading his grinder. Sold the MC2 for what I paid for it. Very happy now with my combo of Classic and Mignon (until the next bout of upgraditis!). So 2nd hand, this is a nice set up for under £300. If I do upgrade again it will be the Classic, but my guess is I'll not lose more than £10-£20 on it. Not in a rush to do so however. Descaler and Puly Caf are your friends. Am very impressed with the Mignon, definitely better shots than the MC2, and all the grinds land in the PF basket rather than the worktop. Might even be worth paying the extra £70 for new. For the machine I'd say buy a 2nd hand classic, see how you go, you should make nearly all of your money back in 6 months if you want to upgrade. Naked PF takes skillful tamping! Chris


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## CFo (Aug 25, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> I started with a Classic and a Mignon and you can get some fantastic shots out that combo.
> 
> If you don't make a lot of drinks back to back then a Classic is a great entry level machine. It has its limitations but for light use they aren't too much of an issue.
> 
> !


Sounds a good combination


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## Dr Steve (Nov 25, 2013)

I'm about to sell mine if you're interested. Keep an eye on the for sale thread next week. Its old, shiny and pretty bullet proof. You definitely need a pre Phillips one as they were built up to a spec, not down to a price. If you are near Birmingham feel welcome to come and have a play...I've got a Mignon too so you could see the whole combo you are thinking about 9mignon not for sale though)


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## Guitarcul (Jan 11, 2014)

I'm getting some great advice here it is much appreciated. There is a Gaggia for sale in the for sale thread that I have posted a question about opv mods if anyone has an opinion on this. Dr Steve has thrown me a curve ball about pre Phillips Gaggia. How old are these and what is the consensus round here as to pre/post Phillips Gaggia


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## Dr Steve (Nov 25, 2013)

I might be accused of bias but here goes. When Philips took over they used cheaper components and made "improvements" like the pressurised portafilters which produce lots of fake crema. Cosmetically the machines are the same but rather different beasts inside. I think mine was made in 2002, so its a real classic Classic. It works fine, making me 2-3 shots a day and with regular loving care and attention (descaling/backflushing etc) should go on forever. Seals etc need replacing as they wear out but otherwise there is little that goes wrong with them


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## CFo (Aug 25, 2013)

Guitarcul said:


> I'm getting some great advice here it is much appreciated. There is a Gaggia for sale in the for sale thread that I have posted a question about opv mods if anyone has an opinion on this. Dr Steve has thrown me a curve ball about pre Phillips Gaggia. How old are these and what is the consensus round here as to pre/post Phillips Gaggia


personally think its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Pre phillips better made but getting old. Post Phillips - well... newer! and everyone chucks the pressurised baskets away so any talk of the is misleading. Would you buy an old Merc from the days they ere built like tanks, totally over-engineered but done 200,000 miles or a newer one a few years old, done say 50,000? Either way, get one around £90, keep it 6 months, if you still like it, keep it, if you don't sell it for £80. Gaggia, I mean not Merc.


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## Dr Steve (Nov 25, 2013)

I almost used the old merc analogy myself. Used to have a 190, which I sold with 170,000 on the clock to buy a much newer BMW. Biggest mistake of my motoring life. There are still 190s around and will probably outlast my current car.


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## Guitarcul (Jan 11, 2014)

Thanks everyone for all your help and input it has made things a lot clearer. Mignon with a few accessories due to arrive tomorrow or Friday from Bella Barista and have bought a Gaggia Classic with Rancilio wand, opv mod and naked portafilter from another member on here from the sale thread.

No doubt I will be posting again looking for more help in the future, but hopefully once I find my feet I can provide other newbies with the same help I've received here.

Cheers

Mark


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Great choices. Now the fun begins


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Well done mate am you will be able to get some great shots out of the classic.


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## CFo (Aug 25, 2013)

Good choices, hope you like them.


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