# La Pavoni Europiccola advice?



## Nopapercup

I have a pre millennium model so the 49mm basket. I was putting in 13g of coffee but I've been advised to try less. Any of you have an opinion on this? Also how long and how hard are you pulling on the lever? My last attempts I was hanging on it for 2min with 12g in the basket which seems a bit extreme. I'm now going to change my beans, I just picked up a bag from Curve Roasters as the last coffee I had was a mess (to be fair they told me at the time it was a hard bean to use). How much will grind size vary from bean to bean? Any tips would be greatly appreciated.


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## jimbojohn55

only a week or so of using a pre millenium la pav and im getting good results with the following -

Beans Rave fudge

Grinder Super Jolly

weight in basket 13.5g

false pressure bled for 5-10 seconds with lever 3/4 way up

pull 30 seconds

wet weight in cup 25g

Its taken a lot of adjustments to grind to get to this point - I was grinding finer but was having to use two hands to pull the lever!! I adjusted the grind at this point until the lever was reasonable.

My thoughts are that the pull on the lever at the moment is less than the 30lb recommended so I will edge the grinder finer - the le pav seems a lot more sensitive to grind than my old classic,

Hope this helps - Jim


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## Nopapercup

Sounds like you've almost nailed it. I need to grind coarser as hanging on the machine and 2min can't be right. Before when I went coarser my output was 32g with no crema and gritty but I don't think the beans helped.


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## jimbojohn55

What are you grinding with? - ive not managed to get 32g out of it - just wondering if you need to change the seals?


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## Nopapercup

It's just been serviced and I'm grinding with a La Cimbali Magnum


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## jimbojohn55

Nopapercup said:


> It's just been serviced and I'm grinding with a La Cimbali Magnum


Blimey that should do it,

Tamp lighter? With a 49mm tamper, flat base


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## Nopapercup

I've got a Motta 49mm tamper and trying not to tamp hard. I've tried 13g and 12g in the basket and the grinder from so fine I can't pull to pulling straight through and getting murky water. I probably need to order a large batch of beans but I've been in London so just tried picking some up locally. I'm off to France for the next few months tomorrow or Friday so probably need to find a roaster out there or order from someone like Rave that will ship. I bought a bag of beans from Curve Roasters yesterday but I only have 250g, haven't tried them yet.


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## profondoblu

How are you finding temp regulation?


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## jimbojohn55

For me - I'm not sure re the temp, but I've got some heatsinks on the way from Hong Kong to see if it helps.


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## Nopapercup

That's one thing I don't have is a thermometer to test the water. I've been letting the machine warm up for 30 min before using


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## johnealey

5-10 minutes once boiled, quick flush and am good to go on the G105 which is 51mm so post millennium, if that helps.

If left on longer than that then tend to find a large amount of steam comes out when first flush and would assume pre millennium's the same ( recall from the forum day at Rave Oct 16, all the europiccola types there which were left on were wrapped in wet teatowels)

John


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## Nopapercup

I've seen on YouTube that you can get the group head to temp by heating it up and then flushing it through 3 or 4 times. The only problem with that is that it doesn't leave you much water to run a few cups. This won't be a problem once I figure it out and I'm just making myself one cup at a time.


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## johnealey

Whilst I can only go on taste in the cup as a measure of hot enough, no access to a scace, only do 1 small flush which I use to heat the cups then grind the beans, gives perfectly satisfactory results with enough water left for steaming milk and at least 2 more espresso.

They don't need to be huge flushes, when you think of how much water you pull through the group to create your espresso it doesn't need to be any more than this even if duplicated 3 or 4 times.

Worst case if you run low on water, release the pressure through the steam wand refill with water and all boiled again within 5 minutes max but now with a warm group







During the day when don't want to have the L2 consuming the national grid, this is one of the endearing benefits of this type of machine: quick to heat up and quick to re heat if needed (results in the cup are different to the L2 but perfectly drinkable and punching way above the cost of the machine in comparison)

Worth a try if nothing else as will at least rule out the temp variable

Stick with it and hope the new beans provide a better result (just remember to account for purging previous grinds when adjusting grind setting otherwise gives a false indication)

John


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## Rhys

My routine consists of..


Fill boiler with Volvic.

Switch on (I keep large jug hooked under the steam wand, small jug under the spout).

When up to temp, open steam wand until I get a good blast out of it and then shut off.

Leave standing for about 20 mins.

Pump handle up and down, not enough for water to come out though.

Grind either 15g or 16g of beans (51mm basket millennium version).

Medium tamp.

Loosely fit and pull lever up to just before filling point.

Tighten pf and raise lever fully.

Wait 10s, pull slightly down with minimal pressure until drips appear.

Pull lever and watch for an even pour.

Steam milk to 65 deg (Espro Toroid pitcher, Rhinowares thermometer).

Purge/wipe steam arm.

Pour milk into cup and make pretty splodge on top.

Drink..


I'e gotten into the habit of doing the normal pre-infuse then pulling slightly and holding to increase pre-infuse pressure until drips appear then pulling. Also I try to avoid letting the water enter the group in one short blast, but instead lift the lever until I hear the water start to fill and let it gradually fill. I don't know if letting the group fill in one surge affects the puck or not?


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## Nopapercup

Thanks for the tips guys, i'll have another go in the morning. Out of curiosity what beans are you using? I'm thinking of just getting any that are easy to work with and once I get a good espresso experiment with different beans.


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## jimbojohn55

I would stick with Rave, and get there signature blend - at least it will be fairly consistent and well roasted.


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## Nopapercup

Sounds good jimbojohn55, I should have ordered some a few days ago in time to take with me but I think Rave post to France so I'll just do that.


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## Rhys

I'm mainly using Coffee Compass, got some lovely decaf and just got some mahogany roast Ethiopian as well. Seam to be going DSOL at the min.


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## Nopapercup

I've finally had a chance to have another go on the Pavoni. I'm getting closer, I've had to go coarser on the grinder. My last attemp and the best so far I had 12.5g in the basket out 30.6g and took 36 seconds to pull. The result was half decent crema but bitter taste. What would you guys suggest next, more coffee in the basket, firmer tamp, slightly coarser or finer grind?


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## coffeechap

12.5 into 30.6 is huge for a la pavoni. I would bring the ratio down, they shine on 1 into 1.5 - 2 at most!


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## Nopapercup

coffeechap said:


> 12.5 into 30.6 is huge for a la pavoni. I would bring the ratio down, they shine on 1 into 1.5 - 2 at most!


Thanks what's the best way of doing that?


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## jimbojohn55

I'm at the same point - I'm experimenting with the number of seconds the lever is held at the top of the stroke - 10 seconds gives me 29-30g, 7 seconds gives me 23 -24g - I think the purge time while held 3/4 up the stroke also has an influence.


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## Nopapercup

jimbojohn55 said:


> I'm at the same point - I'm experimenting with the number of seconds the lever is held at the top of the stroke - 10 seconds gives me 29-30g, 7 seconds gives me 23 -24g - I think the purge time while held 3/4 up the stroke also has an influence.


I was thinking of playing about with that today as I've been holding it up about 15 seconds


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## Nopapercup

At last a good espresso!! Having another attempt tonight I've just about got it. My first attempt I kept the grind the same as yesterday but increased the amount of coffee to 13g in basket. I only held the lever up for 5 seconds, 45 second pull with 22g out and good crema. Taste was a bit bitter. Next attempt I went half a notch coarser on the grind and everything else the same except I accidentally lifted the lever up slightly during the pull. The result was 25g out good crema and no bitterness.

Where ive been going wrong. Holding the lever up too long resulting in too large of an output and too fine on the grind. I was pulling so hard on the lever that boiler has come loose.


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## Nopapercup

That didn't last long!! My output is getting heavier with the same variables. I only held the lever up for 3 seconds and got 30g in the cup. Besides holding the lever all the way up is there anything else that contributes to the amount of water that goes through the portafilter?


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## coffeechap

don't be hung up with how much liquid comes out, just stop the shot at your desired output by raising the lever


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## Nopapercup

coffeechap said:


> don't be hung up with how much liquid comes out, just stop the shot at your desired output by raising the lever


Nice I was just trying to pull the cup out and make a right mess. Didn't think of lifting the lever back up. How long do you think I should hold it up before starting the pull and what's the benefit of more or less time? Thanks


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## lotuseater

Interesting thread. With my post millennium I typically tamp 16g of grind and get 32g out. Pretty sweet results with Strangers' Burtukaana (Ethiopia).

I am going to experiment with reducing the volume out - more ristretto.

You can get a lungo by immediately raising the lever and pulling a second part or even full shot?


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## Nopapercup

I'm really struggling with the Pavoni. A few days ago I thought I had it because I got two decent shots but haven't managed another one since. A kg arrived today from Rave which I'll start using tomorrow. If by the end of that I still can't make a decent coffee I'll probably fling the Pavoni out the window (or hopefully calm down)


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## lotuseater

I'd put money on it being a grind/beans problem, not about pre infusion and lever technique. Stick with it and dial in the grind on the new Rave beans such that a shot takes about 25-30 secs to pull cleanly in one go on a warmed through group and PF, and you should be about there. Once it clicks you will scratch your head and wonder how it took so long to get it sorted.


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## Nopapercup

Thanks Lotuseater I'll start over tomorrow with the new beans and see how I get on


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## jimbojohn55

Just a few thoughts.

I'm finding that the Pav retains a lot of stale coffee around the seal after every use - at the moment I'm running a twisted up piece of paper towel around the seal and sides of the shower plate in order to remove it after every shot - if I leave it then the shot tastes bitter.

the other thing I am finding is that I am using 13g in the basket and getting a drink that's stronger than the 14g I got from the same coffee through the gaggia.

I'm trying heated and unheated group and portafilter as well to see the effect on taste using Rave Signature Blend.

I'm also trying different pre infusion times with the lever at the top of the stroke.

hope this helps


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## Nopapercup

There are so many variables Jim! I'm having a bit more success today. I've now started using Rave's Brazil Capim Branco. I've gone a bit finer on the grind and I'm thinking of adding more into the basket and maybe tamping a bit harder. Not sure if the time on the pre infusion is making much difference to the output but I could be totally wrong.


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## John T

jimbojohn55 said:


> Just a few thoughts.
> 
> I'm finding that the Pav retains a lot of stale coffee around the seal after every use - at the moment I'm running a twisted up piece of paper towel around the seal and sides of the shower plate in order to remove it after every shot - if I leave it then the shot tastes bitter.


I would have thought that a bit drastic! I always do a quick NSEW before the final polish. This gets rid of any deposits round the inside edge of the basket. Admittedly, it is unavoidable to get some grinds round the edge of the screen but a Q Tip every two weeks or so does the trick for me!


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## Nopapercup

At last I'm getting consistent good espresso!

I'm not sure how the other Pav owners are finding their machines but I was going wrong with leaving it way too long to heat up before making my coffee. I have a pre millennium with the two switches 1 and 2. My routine is to turn both on and when it starts steaming and whistling turn switch 2 off. I was then waiting 15 to 20 min to make the coffee. I don't have a thermometer and the water must have been burning the coffee. After a lot of trial and error I have found that I need to make my espresso within 5 minutes of turning switch 2 off. My last 2 attempts 1) 14g in basket, 25 out with a 10 second pre infuse 2) 14g in 28g out 15second pre infuse. After holding the lever all the way up for 10/15 sec to fill the group head I now let go of the lever and wait a few seconds until a few drops appear in the cup. I've found this is now much easier to pull the lever down which now takes between 30 and 40 seconds.


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## jimbojohn55

That's great news - Im still playing around with temp - and tbh finding that best taste =

1 Turn on - gets to temp - stops boiling (pressure stat kicks in)

2 I (was) lifting the lever 90% up and purging the air by opening the steam wand - This caused the pressure drop and a second boil

3 I now lift all the way up hold for 7 seconds - then lever down 30 secs

13g in dry - 25 out - its certainly not as hot as when holding and purging the air out - but doesn't taste burnt anymore

I am suspicious of where the pressure stat is opening - in the pre millennium with Teflon plastic piston they dropped it to 0.8 or 0.7 I think so I have a gauge and adapter heading across from Trumpton so I can faff and see.

Glad yours is working out


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## Nopapercup

Each machine seems to have it's own traits. I'm surprised I get 14g in the basket easily, I'm sure I could squeeze more in which I'll attempt but I think I'm probably around the optimal amount for my machine.

The other things I'm doing is once up to temperature lifting the lever all the way up a for a quick blast to clear out any stale coffee that may be in it and to heat up the head. Once I'm ready to go I just put the portafilter on then lift the lever up 3/4 and then tighten it. Saw this on a site but not sure it makes any difference. I then lift lever all the way up, still experimenting on how long but right now either 10 or 15 seconds, then let go so it drops to 3/4 leave for 5 seconds and then pull the shot.

My machine is from the 70's so pretty sure it has the metal piston. I haven't looked at the pressure stat but it was just serviced.


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## lotuseater

Good news you're now in business!


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## MooMaa

Hi,

I have a 1974 version 1.7 this one = http://www.francescoceccarelli.eu/La_Pavoni/Schede/EP_1974_12_eng.htm but with a pressure gauge attached, pressure starts to be released at 0.75 bar

My routine

-Fill with bottled water turn switch position 2 leave for 7 minutes until pressure release kicks in

-Purge steam wand

-Quick flush through group into cup

-wait a few seconds for pressure release to start releasing again

-turn switch to position 1

-Grind coffee 13g into PF , insert into group

-lift lever for 10 seconds

-pull down until first drops of coffee appear

-Lift lever and slowly pull down (20 -30 seconds) until in full down position

-switch to position 2

-wait for pressure to start being released

-steam milk

-turn switch to position 0

-turn off at wall and unplug.

-Enjoy coffee


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## Rhys

Looks like there is quite a difference between pre and millennium machines. Mines a millennium and I usually use 16g of coffee, 15g for darker roasts as they tend to fill the basket more for weight. The tamper's shoulder is flush with the basket lip (Reg Barber).


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## Nopapercup

I've just changed my coffee today. I just went through a kg of Rave Brazil Capim Branco which was a medium roast. With that I found 14 grams in the basket (pre millennium) was the right amount. I just opened Rave's Chatswood Blend which is more of a dark roast and 14 g was a real squeeze so will try 13 or 13.5 and I think I need to go finer with this coffee on the grind


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## MooMaa

I have only used coffee compass roasts usually the darker ones Jampit and hill and Valley, although this week I am going to try mocha Milan, a lighter roast so I will see if I can get 13.5 - 14 g in the basket.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Whatever you do, don't copy how this person pulls a shot: (FF to 3:30 up until 6:00). Pure Comedy.


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## jimbojohn55

pessutojr said:


> Whatever you do, don't copy how this person pulls a shot: (FF to 3:30 up until 6:00). Pure Comedy.


you have to wonder why a company that has refined and tweaked the machine over 40 years would put out a terrible way to use it and make a terrible espresso - FFS - Oi Pavoni Pack It In.


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