# Have i been doing it wrong, all along?



## Scotty (Mar 21, 2011)

Just been reading the review of the VST baskets on another site. I noticed this particular paragraph:

I could use the same amount of coffee, same grind, same dose, level and tamp. I'd vary how long I pulled the shots - sometimes pulling 28g brew volume (ristretto); sometimes pulling 35-38g volume (normale as Fedele calls that) and sometimes pulling up to 45g (a luongo). All these shots were still within good extraction ratios Brewing Control Chart! But more importantly, all the shots maintained a decent amount of sweetness in the taste, throughout the size differences. For me, the normales tasted the best, but the luongo was definitely drinkable, and the ristretto even more so

Now i have been pulling my shots into two lined shot glasses using about 16g of coffee in the double basket. Based on the above weights i have been pulling 10ml more than a luongo? Is this right?

So should i now be aiming for 35-38g in 25 seconds? If so all my shots since the beginning have been way out!

Any advice appreciated.

Also, Are the VST baskets worth the upgrade over the OEM Rancillio ones?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Hi Scotty, did you mean to say 10ml, or 10g? i.e. are you pulling 55g shots?

No matter.

In my humble opinion, there's no right or wrong per se. There are established ways of doing things, based upon people adopting the experiences of others, and these are a good place to start. But they are not what you might call rules. Nobody can define a ristretto, normale or lungo in my view... for example, some say a ristretto is just a shot that is cut short, some say it's a shot with a brew ratio in a particular range (as per your quotation), some say it occurs when the Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) is between something like 12% and 18%, etc etc. *However*... Andy Schecter created the following chart based upon his own experiments, and I think it's a great way to define different shots.










Infact, here's the whole post... fascinating read, IMO.

But the key things, I think, are:

(a) to develop the skills to pull a certain type of shot when *you *want to, not when the machine or the grinder or the beans decide to.

(b) to know what kind of shot you or your customers prefer.

Therefore, nobody can say 35-38g is right, because you might actually prefer the taste of a 55g shot.

Personally I go for approx 65-70% brew ratio, which works out at around 18g of grinds, 25-28g of espresso, and 25 seconds. But then again, with different beans this formula would change!

Don't worry. Like so many of us you obviously have the bug, and your research will get you to a place you're happy with!

If it's of any interest, here's an old thread about such things...

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?3641-Weighing-espresso-and-brew-ratios&highlight=ratios

Mike


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

(strange... double posting. forum seems to be going a tad slow for me lately too.)


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## Scotty (Mar 21, 2011)

Thanks mike.

16g of coffee into a 60ml shot at 22 seconds is over extracted, pretty much?

Will need to warm up the silvia and experiment!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Struggling slightly due to not knowing whether you're working in ml or g.

Simple answer: 60ml, fine. 60g, too much liquid.

More detailed answer available upon request


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## Scotty (Mar 21, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> Struggling slightly due to not knowing whether you're working in ml or g.
> 
> Simple answer: 60ml, fine. 60g, too much liquid.
> 
> More detailed answer available upon request


1g and 1ml on my Scales are the same. Is this not right?

Im using 16g of coffee to produce 60ml (The line on 2 shot glasses or 2fl oz) in about 22 seconds. This is fine in milk drinks but the espresso itself drunk straight isnt particularly nice. Also, The subtle flavours mentioned on most bags of coffee dont seem to shine through for me.

Based on what you've said, This is about 30ml more than you would use for a good tasting shot. I presume this is why i cant taste the flavours as they are getting lost behind the overextraction?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Yes, upon re-reading I think this is a simple case of reading grammes/weights and not distinguishing it from millilitres. And I've made it worse by going off on a complicated rant









Basically, ignore that quote you read. Sounds like you're doing it right!!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

No, scotty. 60ml of espresso isn't the same as 60g. If your scales say they are the same, they're wrong. Grammes are weight. Millilitres are volume.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

That's a brilliant chart MikeHag. Good find. It's really easy to quickly find at least a good guide of where to start with your weights.

Turns out I've probably been drinking Lungos with a 35% BR until today when I cut off a lot earlier and actually got an espresso around 50% BR.

Might print it out and put it in brew corner for reference. Oh no! Does this mean I'm going to have to laminate it or is this going to push my geek coefficient into double digits


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## Scotty (Mar 21, 2011)

I appreciate the difference between G & ML as Weight and Volume but if i weight a shot glass of 30ml and change it to G it says it's 30g. If i change it to FL oz it says 1.1 so the scales are working correctly.

I guess i should attempt a shot of about 40ml from 16g in a double basket to see what i think?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I can understand why you'd thing that there's a direct relation between g and ml from what you've done with the shot glass, but I promise you've inferred a connection that doesn't exist.

Think of it this way. Gold is heavy, right? So if you took 60ml of water in one glass and 60ml of liquid gold (and I don't mean beer!) in another, they wouldn't weigh the same. Espresso is heavier than water, because it contains dissolved and undissolved particles from the coffee bean. So 60ml of espresso would weigh different again. AND, every different shot of espresso has a different number of particles, so 60ml of espresso could weigh anything from, say, 18g to 65g.

But to get back to your original question, most people aim for something like this for a double espresso:

- 18g of beans/grinds

- 25-30 seconds

- producing approx 60ml of espresso (or 2 fl oz).

But this isn't a rule.


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## Scotty (Mar 21, 2011)

So I guess what we are saying is my scales are rubbish?

Your 25-28g of espresso, do you 0 the scales with the cup on it then pull the shot into the cup, then weigh the cup?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

chimpsinties said:


> That's a brilliant chart MikeHag. Good find. It's really easy to quickly find at least a good guide of where to start with your weights.
> 
> Turns out I've probably been drinking Lungos with a 35% BR until today when I cut off a lot earlier and actually got an espresso around 50% BR.
> 
> Might print it out and put it in brew corner for reference. Oh no! Does this mean I'm going to have to laminate it or is this going to push my geek coefficient into double digits


Great









Since the formula for brew ratio is:

Grinds weight in / espresso weight out

then you can increase the ratio by either

- increasing the numerator or

- decreasing the denominator

So (keeping extraction time constant)

- for (a) increase your dosage.

- for (b) grinding finer is another way.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Scotty said:


> So I guess what we are saying is my scales are rubbish?
> 
> Your 25-28g of espresso, do you 0 the scales with the cup on it then pull the shot into the cup, then weigh the cup?


Not that your scales are rubbish, just that you've made a mental leap when using them.

Pretty much I do as you describe above. My scales are small so I put them on the drip tray, put the cup on, tare to zero then pull the shot into the cup. I aim to stop the shot at 25 seconds and with 25-28g, but also look for blonding as an indicator.

BUT

I have to clarify that most people right now don't use weight in grammes to measure their shot (the liquid). Most still use volume, i.e. either ml or fl oz. And infact I only use weight when I'm trying to find a particular bean's brew formula that works well for my own tastebuds. The rest of the time I use volume cos it's easier.


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## RvB (Nov 9, 2010)

1g is near enough 1ml when dealing with water, it's all to do with relative denisty, specific gravity stuff like that.







But as espresso isn't just water, as it has coffee solids present, and also isn't at room temperature you can't go with 1ml = 1g like your scales say as it's density has all changed.


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## Scotty (Mar 21, 2011)

RvB said:


> 1g is near enough 1ml when dealing with water, it's all to do with relative denisty, specific gravity stuff like that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So its probably safer if i'm pulling the shot into a cup rather than into shot glasess to judge it by weight rather than volume?


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

I feel your pain Scotty. I looked into brewing ratios a while back and got confused by the results. I also have a Silvia and a double shot for me (60ml) usually ends up around 59g in mass. To confuse me further I tried weighing just water and found 60ml = 51.5g. This is when I realised in order to acheive these mid 30g shots you are going to get a lot less to drink (around 30ml but with enough dose going by older guidelines to make a double). In conclusion I gave up and just went by taste









Sorry forgot to mention this was using around 15-16g of beans.


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## Scotty (Mar 21, 2011)

MonkeyHarris said:


> I feel your pain Scotty. I looked into brewing ratios a while back and got confused by the results. I also have a Silvia and a double shot for me (60ml) usually ends up around 59g in mass. To confuse me further I tried weighing just water and found 60ml = 51.5g. This is when I realised in order to acheive these mid 30g shots you are going to get a lot less to drink (around 30ml but with enough dose going by older guidelines to make a double). In conclusion I gave up and just went by taste
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I tend to use 15 to 16g of beans too. I'll just keep messing till i get it how i like it.


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

I think the beans you use probably has a huge effect on this. I prefer very dark roasts but if I'm having a lighter roast then I up dose considerably for the same volume extracted.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Scotty said:


> So its probably safer if i'm pulling the shot into a cup rather than into shot glasess to judge it by weight rather than volume?


Here's my view... others may disagree.

A marked 2floz (approx 60ml) shot glass is a great tool when learning (which we all are, and always will be







). It gives you an idea when to stop the shot on a double espresso. But then you learn about things like channelling and blonding, and realize that 2floz is just a number, and if you adhere to it rigidly without looking at other things like blonding then you may stop the shot too late or too soon. So the shot glass becomes slightly less important with experience. So then you start pulling shots straight into a cup. Before doing so its a good idea to pour a 2floz shot out of a shot glass into the cup, so you have an idea how much it fills the cup. So you pull into the cup and ask yourself "when should I stop this shot?". To decide, you use a combination of (a) your memory of how much it should fill the cup, (b) the appearance of the shot flow and signs of blonding, and © number of seconds. For many people this is enough. It's popular. However, if you're feeling geeky, you can start weighing the shot (liquid) in grammes. Why? Many reasons, which will become apparent if you decide to go down that path further. One reason though is that it provides another cue for when to stop the shot. You might decide to stop at 20g, 37g, 50g etc. What weight is best? Only your tastebuds can say. If you do decide to weigh, then try several different shot (liquid) weights. But maybe weighing is something you'd prefer to proceed to later, and for the moment stick with the popular way mentioned above.


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

My problem is that I can't get away from a full cup/glass of espresso. I will cut the shot as soon as blonding starts but anything less than 45ml and I have to make myself another







Maybe I'm lucky but blonding rarely occurs with me until my pours been going over 20 seconds. Maybe one weekend when I've got a bit of time I'll go back to this and try some different mass shots.

Mike, out of curiosity how much in volume would you say you acheive on average?


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## ChiarasDad (Mar 21, 2010)

I've been 'doing it wrong' all along myself, and to blazes with the charts. Per at least one chart, virtually every shot I make should be underextracted, sour, and just generally bad. Well, rubbish. Mine are sweet and rich and delicious (and come on over for a coffee if you're skeptical).

I consider the charts a guide, rules of thumb until you have control of enough of the variables that you can reliably get the results that please you (or your customers) without caring what the charts say. But once you can confidently make and tune your own shot recipes to get delightful results, I think the charts are a point of reference and nothing more. You might want to pull shots by the numbers once in a while for a change of pace and/or to be sure that what you're doing is still better, but IMO you should, in the end, be trusting your own palate over a chart.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I suppose the point is, that there are so many variables that you have no idea what changing something will do. So you might be drinking what you think tastes great where as a little tweak here and there could greatly improve things. It's all about consistency and only changing one thing at a time at the end of the day. The charts help you get your baseline where you start your experimenting from. It is all about the taste, but for someone like me that only gets to make 1 espresso a day it'll take a looooong time to work this stuff out so I'm glad of a rough guide to point me in the right direction.

I had a wonderfully sweet shot this morning using 17g and stopping the machine at about 28g but by the time it had stopped flowing it was actually 34g


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

ChiarasDad said:


> I've been 'doing it wrong' all along myself, and to blazes with the charts. Per at least one chart, virtually every shot I make should be underextracted, sour, and just generally bad. Well, rubbish. Mine are sweet and rich and delicious (and come on over for a coffee if you're skeptical).
> 
> I consider the charts a guide, rules of thumb until you have control of enough of the variables that you can reliably get the results that please you (or your customers) without caring what the charts say. But once you can confidently make and tune your own shot recipes to get delightful results, I think the charts are a point of reference and nothing more. You might want to pull shots by the numbers once in a while for a change of pace and/or to be sure that what you're doing is still better, but IMO you should, in the end, be trusting your own palate over a chart.


Couldn't agree more... you said it better than me


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

chimpsinties said:


> I suppose the point is, that there are so many variables that you have no idea what changing something will do. So you might be drinking what you think tastes great where as a little tweak here and there could greatly improve things. It's all about consistency and only changing one thing at a time at the end of the day. The charts help you get your baseline where you start your experimenting from. It is all about the taste, but for someone like me that only gets to make 1 espresso a day it'll take a looooong time to work this stuff out so I'm glad of a rough guide to point me in the right direction.
> 
> I had a wonderfully sweet shot this morning using 17g and stopping the machine at about 28g but by the time it had stopped flowing it was actually 34g


Again - completely agree.

If you get time, perhaps do a little 'taste experiment' over one weekend. Make 4 shots on Saturday and 4 on Sunday, only changing one variable (e.g. dose size) and trying to keep the others constant. It's a great way to get accellerated learning, I think


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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

Absolutely agree with pretty much everyone - it's all about taste. That said, a good understanding of the numbers helps tune your taste buds into what effect changes in dose/time/grind/length etc. generally have. A quick note on why I don't use volume - it's too confusing







The 2oz volume includes crema - which varies from shot to shot and significantly between different machines and coffees - and which, to add confusion, weighs significantly less.

It's also true that different people prefer different espresso flavours and that different coffees can have radically different flavours when pulled in the same way.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Here's a nice little blog post by Colin Harmon that's easy enough to follow for anyone wanting to start weighing their shots... interesting comments from readers too.

http://colinharmon.wordpress.com/2010/10/24/falling-in-love-with-espresso-1-55-times-over-again/


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## Scotty (Mar 21, 2011)

Really liking that link. 1.55 seems to be at least something to start at. Will give it a go tomorrow.


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## Scotty (Mar 21, 2011)

Just to follow on from this I've made 2 cappuccinos and 2 flat whites with finca de licho which I got in the 28-32g range and they have been lovely. I can still taste the melted chocolate of the flat White I finished 10 minutes ago. Has anyone else had a go at 20g of beans x 1.55?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

At home with Formula 6 I aim for 18g at 1.5 = 27g

At work I'd say it's more like 1.33 (75%), based on 21g:27g. Well and truly in the ristretto range, but I'll know more soon as I have some precision scales on order.

Either way, much nicer than nasty yellow gushers IMO.


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

Had another go at this today using the 1.55 method an had some nice results. I pulled a shot with 15g and stopped the extraction at around the 23g mark in 23 seconds and I must say it was a lovely sweet and smooth shot. I would prefer more of the end product but I guess I just have to updose. The only problem I've found with this method is my scales. They're very accurate and good to 0.01g but as soon as I hit the brew switch they start going up and down with the vibration of the pump. The refresh rate is also about 1 second so stopping it around the 23g mark required a bit of good judgement. Overall though I think I'm going to keep experimenting with it to see if it improves every bean over my normal method of just cutting the shot at the blonding point.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I think I said in an old post when I first looked into brew ratios that I was struggling to reconcile the two ways of knowing when to stop the shot.

(a) blonding

(b) target weight

Having initially used (a) then moved to (b) in the luxury of a home environment, and now find myself using (a) again in the cafe, I'm of the opinion that the key to a good shot is to get these two conditions coinciding. I mean, it should turn blonde at the point at which the brew weight is your target, provided you have dosed, ground and tamped with the appropriate settings... and therein lies the skill we strive to attain. (As well as doing all this in a target number of seconds.)

After sufficient repetition I expext it's possible to use (a) on a daily basis, and (b) as a periodic check to ensure you are calibrating yourself correctly.

The 'when to stop the shot' dilemma is vital to getting a good shot, but it does seem to be a case of the tail wagging the dog. If we set the target (e.g. weight/brew ratio) and configure our parameters correctly then there should be no dilemma. Blonding and weight both shout STOP loud and clear. The only question for each of us is "what is my personal target?". And the only way to know is to try different brew ratios to see what the palate prefers. 1.55 isn't a magic number. It's just what one guy's palate prefers (albeit one highly respected barista's palate







)


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