# Decisions, decisions! Choice between two prosumer machines



## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Hi Folks.

I'm looking for help, guidance, expert judgement, opinion, heresay or whatever, to assist me to decide on a prosumer machine.

I've narrowed it down to two; the Profitec 700 Dual Boiler http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/profitec-700-dual-boiler.html and the Quick Mill Verona Dual Boiler - Bella Barista Edition http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/quick-mill-verona-dual-boiler-espresso-machine.html, both available for an identical price.

So far, my observations are as follows: very similar but with these significant differences... the Profitec has S/S boilers and a slightly bigger brew boiler as opposed to the Verona's copper steam boiler and anti-taste brass brew boiler. The Verona has separate, different, PID algorithms for optimum independent control of brew and steam boilers. The Profitec has a shot-timer incorpated into its PID (no automatic control as it's an E61 lever). The Verona has a slightly smaller footprint, which is useful, for the space where I would locate it is a bit tight. I'm particularly taken with all the design features of the Verona as detailed here. http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/QuickmillVeronaCloserLook2013v1.pdf Lengthy, but an interesting and most impressive read.

Essential requirements are: proper dual boiler (not HX), rotary pump (not vib.), E61 grouphead capable of pre-infusion (or will all E61s do that?), PID control.

Highly desirable are: integral reservoir AND plumb-in option, independently switchable brew and steam boilers for energy economy, no-burn steam and water wands, externally accessible variable pump pressure, dual pressure gauges, ease of descaling (the Verona wins here). I also like the idea of the Verona's independent full PID control of the two boilers. I mainly make one, or possibly two shots at a time, with the occasional need for up to say, four or five.

Although a relative noob to the world of espresso, I'm already frustrated by the limitations of my Gaggia New Baby. Small single aluminium boiler with inadequate steam performance despite its Silvia wand, and the need to temperature-surf all the time. If I brew first, the crema's deteriorated by the time the milk's ready; if I steam first, the microfoam's all but disappeared when the shot is done. And the brew temperature and pressure are simply not stable enough. And as for doing multiple servings - well, come back next week!

So, as I'm the wrong side of 70, I've decided to go for the 'machine of my dreams' now, which will see me out, as it were. Realistically, 20 years at the most I'd say, although I'm genetically similar to my mother, and she went on to 101!

So, can anyone please help me with my quandary?

Thanks in anticipation,

Tony.

P.S. Forgot to mention that I already have a 'good enough' grinder... a Mazzer SJ with brand new burrs.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Im not sure anyone has had both side by side , i know a couple of profitec owners are on the forum and I'm sure DaveC will give you an opinion on the verona

Gman147 has one currently, verona that is , ( it used to be owned by Xpenno , so he may be able to give you some real life experience of owning a verona too ) ....also may i ask what grinder are you pairing the machines with . The quality of grinder will drive the quality of espresso either machine will make ..

Both will help you make better espresso more consistently and quicker ...

I suspect both will make excellent espresso with a good grinder and coffee , and it may well come down to small features like is and shot timer, that decide it for you ..

Are you able to get to Bella Barista ( lol ) they may have both next to each other for you to try .


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Worth having a quick read of this to properly understand e-61 pre infusion, especially with regards to the lever.

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/e61-pre-infusion

Best of luck finding the answers you need for your dream machine! Are you making a trip to BB to compare them?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

You've already highlighted many of the differences between the 2 machines so I'd say that it's worth heading to BB to check them out (as I did). Both of these machines have great reviews and it may just come down to 1 or 2 small details in the end, hence why its important to see them both in the flesh.

Not sure how the profitec handles descaling but the taps on the bottom of the brew and steam boilers were a godsend given that's its a dual boiler.

In my short time with it I couldn't think of any things I didn't like about the Verona tbh. It delivered in the cup, it looked superb and was easy to maintain.

Just make sure you get a nice grinder such as the compak e8/e10 (I think that foundry coffee roasters sell them in the UK) this level of grinder, paired with either machine will give you a setup that you will enjoy for years to come


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Thanks MrBoots and Dylan for your very quick replies.

Yes, I do intend to go to BB. Haven't spoken to them yet though, as the whole thing is a spur of the moment whim which only occurred to me last night. I'd been considering an Expobar double-boiler though, but decided I wanted rotary pump.

Grinder is Mazzer SJ. Coffee is generally Rave Signature or Italian Job.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

teejay41 said:


> Thanks MrBoots and Dylan for your very quick replies.
> 
> Yes, I do intend to go to BB. Haven't spoken to them yet though, as the whole thing is a spur of the moment whim which only occurred to me last night. I'd been considering an Expobar double-boiler though, but decided I wanted rotary pump.
> 
> Grinder is Mazzer SJ. Coffee is generally Rave Signature or Italian Job.


IMHO the expo is a killer machine if you are happy to take the small hit on looks and extra noise. The slightly softer pressure ramp on the vibe pumps can mean more consistent/tastier shots.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Expobar Leva DB is available with a rotary pump. Bella Barista sell it along with the vibration pump version.

I've not owned a Mazza SJ (although originally that was what I thought I wanted as a first grinder) but I'd have thought you'd want something a step or two up from that, paired with such a good espresso machine.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

teejay41 said:


> I'd been considering an Expobar double-boiler though, but decided I wanted rotary pump.


So, why not a Brewtus with a rotary pump? I have the same machine plumbed in at home with an E8 and I've never felt even the slightest urge to change anything since. Well, maybe that's not quite true - but controlling my urges has been much easier since I upgraded!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

If would be a shame not to consider a grinder upgrade whilst your at it. If the only thing putting you off the ExpoDB was the pump (which, as above, is not a problem as you can get it rotary) then get that and put the extra dose toward a killer combo!


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Thanx Xpenno.

Just what I hoped to hear, for secretly I favour the Verona, largely because of all BB's amazing design features it includes. I suppose the big one (like location, location) is the difference between S/S boilers and the brass & copper ones.

Cheers,

Tony.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Tony, did you realise that the Verona is the brainchild of BB through forum member Davec which is why it is only available through them? He was responsible for the wait looks and the features it has.


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

Hey Tony

As mad as it sounds, one of the most useful features for me at the moment on Pro 700 is the shot timer.

I am getting used to the machine and the new grinder, so dialling in is much easier with the integrated shot timer.

It was one of the small details that steered me from an R58 to the Profitec, small detail I know, but at this level, they are all there is to distinguish









Shout if you have any questions about the Pro 700, happy to help where I can

Aaron


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

aaroncornish said:


> Hey Tony
> 
> As mad as it sounds, one of the most useful features for me at the moment on Pro 700 is the shot timer.
> 
> ...


Hi Aaron,

Thanks for taking the trouble to reply... I'm most grateful to everyone who's added their penn'orth.

I take your point about the timer - I always time my shots with a small free-standing kitchen timer. They don't always match the target time, but I keep trying. I'd actually thought about a timer, as the Verona, which deep down I think I favour, doesn't have one. But I thought I'd get one of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281644718684?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (chosen for its 'stainless' appearance) and attach it to the machine's front fascia. Timers usually come fitted with a 'fridge-magnet, but that's no good on stainless, so self-adhesive velcro would be my choice, easily removable to renew its battery.

I'll keep the thread posted on how it eventually turns out.

Cheers,

Tony.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

teejay41 said:


> Hi Aaron,
> 
> Thanks for taking the trouble to reply... I'm most grateful to everyone who's added their penn'orth.
> 
> ...


Stupid, stupid! I've just realised that the timer I linked to is hours/minutes, not minutes/seconds. Ah well, back to the eBay watch list!


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## dare (May 1, 2013)

Wow Tony so your upgrading already from the Gaggia, well the Verona would be my choice, it looks the part and that would swing it for me. But definitely the Brewtus dual boiler comes with a rotary pump, plumbed in version to:

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/expobar-leva-dual-boiler-coffee-machine-reservoir-plumb-in.html


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## domjon1 (Feb 14, 2013)

no love for the izzo alex duetto? Seems to fit every one of your criteria. Great machine to use and look at imo


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## Spooks (Feb 20, 2012)

As someone who had always admired and lusted after the R58 as it has all the features and performance I want I am now in a quandary after seeing the Profitec 700 of Aaron's.

It is truly a stunning bit of kit that the pictures spit no justice, in the flesh it looks great and makes a great cuppa.

Not seen the other machine of choice but the 700 from my very limited experience looks a cracker.

Looking forward to seeing which machine you go for.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Where abouts in the midlands are you?

I have the R58 and E10, you are more than welcome to pop round and have a play.

BB now sell the Compaks and will do a good deal on machine/grinder combo if you go down and speak to them.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> Where abouts in the midlands are you?
> 
> I have the R58 and E10, you are more than welcome to pop round and have a play.
> 
> BB now sell the Compaks and will do a good deal on machine/grinder combo if you go down and speak to them.


Thanks froggystyle, that's very kind of you. I'm in Burton-on-Trent.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Ahh maybe a bit to far then, i am down near Coventry...


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> Ahh maybe a bit to far then, i am down near Coventry...


i wouldn't admit to that


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Mr O said:


> i wouldn't admit to that


Hinckley! Nuff said mate.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Home of Britain's favourite motorcycle.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

I thought I'd post the latest turmoils in my quest to decide on an ECM.

No decision yet. The more I try to narrow it down, the wider it seems to get. I think the good forum members who replied to the thread are all keen to give their own favourite a mention, so I've been considering machines I'd barely heard of before!

But it's running close between the Rocket R58, Izzo Alex Duetto Mk IV, Profitec 700 and Quick Mill Verona (Bella Barista version), with the Verona in the lead by a short head. I think the first two are now also-rans. I really like all the detail specified by Dave Corby and incorporated in Quick Mill's reworked Vetrano, now called the Verona and exclusive to BB. For example, the drain-taps on the two boilers are invaluable it seems, when descaling. The rotary pump is now below its motor (whole caboodle installed upside down) so that (as they say) WHEN not IF it begins to leak at some stage, the leak is harmless. There are so many of Dave C's minor improvements all taken on board by Quick Mill that I think they may well become the clincher. The brass brew boiler is another example, as some people (not me, I think) can detect copper in the taste. And such considerations as fitting all the electrical parts and electronics in cool, safely-away-from-water locations are dear to my heart, having been passionate about electrics and electronics since teenage. The PID is yet another example with its separate steam-function algorithm, enhancing steam performance and possibly safeguarding the steam boiler's life.

The only things the 700 has going for it, for me at any rate, over the Verona are the S/S boilers, more aesthetically balanced fascia layout and shot-timer in the PID. And its slight extra width is actually a minor downside. As far as I'm aware, the main advantage of stainless over copper or brass is its corrosion resistance when it comes to descaling. Well, here in Burton-on-Trent the water is very hard (calcium and gypsum), so the obvious answer is to treat it before use. I'm not convinced that bottled water is the right way to go, for that's usually fairly mineral-rich to ensure good flavour. It's the calcium (limescale) that needs to be removed... I've been considering a water filter jug which specifically removes potassium, favoured by some forum members, but I believe that's not what causes scale. In addition (I've been clueing up on water softening for drinking) potassium in drinking water is actually beneficial to health. Instead, I'm considering a Reverse Osmosis plant installed below the kitchen sink. That will remove everything just about, and with care, the treated water is OK potable. Burton's water has almost 500ppm minerals and impurities. After RO, it's about 4-7ppm! I've had access to RO water in the past, and I've tested it. Put say, an inch of water in a stainless saucepan and gently boil it dry... quite significant deposits are left. Do the same with RO... nothing, zilch - absolutely clean and shiny! That's how I'd like my boilers to stay, so that descaling is seldom necessary. A decent RO plant can be had for £200 or so... probably the same as around 600 litres of bottled water at a guess. With my Gaggia New Baby I'm getting through about 20 litres a month, what with temp. flushing and surfing, back-flushing etc. so with a dual boiler E61, break-even should be only a few years away, plus the benefit of having pure water on tap for other uses.

I mentioned fascia aesthetics. To be honest, I'm not really bothered. It's a work-horse after all, and I doubt that farmers choose their next tractor because it looks pretty! Actually, to balance the Verona's lop-sided look (caused by the single-dial pressure gauges) I would attach a digital shot-timer to the RHS of the fascia, conveniently close to the extraction lever. I'll use sticky-backed velcro so as not to mark the fascia, and easily detachable to change the battery. I'll go for an AA-style battery not a silver-oxide button, for longer battery life. And I'll try to get one with an 'in keeping' appearance - i.e. silver or black.

So it's looking good for when I go to BB on Friday. Spoke to Claudette today and arranged it. They now have their full range of rotaries in stock and by then, they'll have their really heavy bottomless E61 portafilter back in stock too. I shall take a good pal along with me who's also coffee-interested, but in a lesser way, as a second brain and memory (mine's a bit iffy these days). He has good engineering knowledge, so that'll help. He's the one who, although disapproving of my extravagance, persuaded me to look higher than an Expobar - my first target - so it's 'the last machine I'll ever need to buy'. I shall give the Gaggia to him as he and his other half have enjoyed its produce many times.

With a bit of luck, I'll be returning home with my head spinning and bank-balance groaning, along with the rear suspension under the extra weight.

Watch this space, as they say!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

You've done your homework ill say that. Enjoy your visit to BB and spend big my friend!


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

Very impressive research indeed.

I think I would be going for the 700 or the quick mill.

Decision would be made after a test drive of both.

is RO water good for making coffee though? I could be wrong and probably am.... I know it's good for marine fish to live in (with added salt) but does it remove what helps give coffee a superior taste? I know the BWT filters add magnesium for flavour. Could it be too pure?


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## Gander24 (Apr 11, 2015)

"No decision yet, the more i try to narrow it down the wider it seems to get"

I have also had this same issue since researching on here, I started off trying to decide between two machines now there are 5+ in the mix! Good luck!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Gander24 said:


> "No decision yet, the more i try to narrow it down the wider it seems to get"
> 
> I have also had this same issue since researching on here, I started off trying to decide between two machines now there are 5+ in the mix! Good luck!


What are you considering?


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## Gander24 (Apr 11, 2015)

Pretty much all the sub 1900 quid e61 dual boilers are now in the mix after starting my dilemma between the brewtus (due to value) and r58 (due to looks). From there my journey is pretty much like teejays. Keeping a close eye on this thread for more info, wont be till at least the end of the month due to financial constraints tho! Ill defo get my own post up when i have researched everything properly, just before i buy, as the info here is invaluable.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If you want to pull a couple of shots on the Brewtus you're welcome to swing by the stall at some point, but dunno if you'll get a fair chance to evaluate it in storm conditions!


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Thanks to all those who have responded to my last night's effort.

It seems I've got my twickers in a knist over the potassium-removing filter jug. I'm reliably informed that the BWT filter ADDS potassium to the water... and it's also been suggested that although Reverse Osmosis water is absolutely pure and OK to drink, it might lack some essentials for good coffee flavour.

So how about this for an idea? I need to reduce the unacceptably high limescale-forming calcium content of Burton water... fact! What about taking pure RO water and then running it through a BWT filter to add some potassium, thereby restoring potential flavour?

Any thoughts on that, anyone?

Tony.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Paging @xpenno for the water chat


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I think you need to remineralise RO water, seem to remember it being bad for your boiler and tasting funny from reading about others experience.

Can be achieved by adding some tap/bottle water after RO, or adding a Calcite filter in line. Not first hand experience tho, so hopefully Xpenno/DaveC will drop by to advise.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Paging @xpenno for the water chat


Does that notify a user they have been tagged?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Does that notify a user they have been tagged?


If they use tapatalk


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Good thread here on RO and remineralising.

http://www.home-barista.com/knockbox/does-reverse-osmosis-water-filter-prevent-scale-buildup-t9551.html


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> If they use tapatalk


So if i keep doing this your tapatalk will be full of notifications?

@jeebsy


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> So if i keep doing this your tapatalk will be full of notifications?
> 
> @jeebsy


What if quote it? Twice.



froggystyle said:


> So if i keep doing this your tapatalk will be full of notifications?
> 
> @jeebsy


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

aaroncornish said:


> What if quote it? Twice.


Good plan!

@jeebsy


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

teejay41 said:


> Thanks to all those who have responded to my last night's effort.
> 
> It seems I've got my twickers in a knist over the potassium-removing filter jug. I'm reliably informed that the BWT filter ADDS potassium to the water... and it's also been suggested that although Reverse Osmosis water is absolutely pure and OK to drink, it might lack some essentials for good coffee flavour.
> 
> ...


Something else I've spotted from Dave Corby's 'Quick Mill Verona - A Closer Look' (http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/QuickmillVeronaCloserLook2013v1.pdf) is that steel does not possess as good antibacterial properties as copper or brass, and that although brass is not quite as long-lasting as copper (in model steam engine applications), to all intents and purposes, it should last the lifetime of an espresso machine. It also avoids the 'copper taste' noticeable to a minority of 'supertaster' people, of whom Dave Corby is one.

So there's a bacteriological reason to opt for brass rather than S/S.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Good plan!
> 
> @jeebsy



View attachment 13817


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Dylan said:


> I think you need to remineralise RO water, seem to remember it being bad for your boiler and tasting funny from reading about others experience.
> 
> Can be achieved by adding some tap/bottle water after RO, or adding a Calcite filter in line. Not first hand experience tho, so hopefully Xpenno/DaveC will drop by to advise.


In my admittedly limited experience of Reverse Osmosis, I'm pretty certain that RO does not de-mineralise water unless a de-min stage is added at the end of the RO process. De-min water is definitely not advisable for drinking, although I'm not sure why.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> It also avoids the 'copper taste' noticeable to a minority of 'supertaster' people, of whom Dave Corby is one.


I'd like to see a Pepsi challenge on this


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> I'd like to see a Pepsi challenge on this


ahh i see what you did there...


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

teejay41 said:


> Something else I've spotted from Dave Corby's 'Quick Mill Verona - A Closer Look' (http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/QuickmillVeronaCloserLook2013v1.pdf) is that steel does not possess as good antibacterial properties as copper or brass, and that although brass is not quite as long-lasting as copper (in model steam engine applications), to all intents and purposes, it should last the lifetime of an espresso machine. It also avoids the 'copper taste' noticeable to a minority of 'supertaster' people, of whom Dave Corby is one.
> 
> So there's a bacteriological reason to opt for brass rather than S/S.


Why should that matter when the boilers are both well above temperatures needed to kill off the vast majority of bacteria?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

teejay41 said:


> In my admittedly limited experience of Reverse Osmosis, I'm pretty certain that RO does not de-mineralise water unless a de-min stage is added at the end of the RO process. De-min water is definitely not advisable for drinking, although I'm not sure why.


Perhaps it depends on the system, but in the limited reading I have done the suggestion is that it removes virtually all minerals from the water. This could just be a lack of understanding on my part, but I would be confused as to why there is all the chat of how to remineralise if this was the case.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Dylan said:


> Perhaps it depends on the system, but in the limited reading I have done the suggestion is that it removes virtually all minerals from the water. This could just be a lack of understanding on my part, but I would be confused as to why there is all the chat of how to remineralise if this was the case.


I was thinking of de-mineralised as being water OK for topping up lead-acid batteries, which has to be electrically non-conductive. RO systems don't go that far unless they have a de-min. cartridge as their final stage. I've just remembered why de-min. water is non-potable. It's on account of the chemical substance it passes through in order to become de-min. Can't recall what that is though.

I think the thread's taken an interesting turn and am avidly reading all new posts. Thanks chaps, for your continued input.

Tony.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Dylan said:


> Why should that matter when the boilers are both well above temperatures needed to kill off the vast majority of bacteria?


I was merely quoting Dave Corby's article (see my relevant post for url link). During the course of reading it, and some of his other 'Closer Look' reviews, and after speaking with someone who knows him personally, I respect his findings, views and opinions. Without doubt, he's immensely experienced in matters espresso and ECM design. I believe he's a CFUK member, so perhaps you may wish to challenge him on that. Might it be that 'dead slime' is some sort of problem? Not my field I'm afraid.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

teejay41 said:


> I was thinking of de-mineralised as being water OK for topping up lead-acid batteries, which has to be electrically non-conductive. RO systems don't go that far unless they have a de-min. cartridge as their final stage. I've just remembered why de-min. water is non-potable. It's on account of the chemical substance it passes through in order to become de-min. Can't recall what that is though.
> 
> I think the thread's taken an interesting turn and am avidly reading all new posts. Thanks chaps, for your continued input.
> 
> Tony.


Perhaps I am googling the wrong things, but everything I can find is simply along the lines of "Yes, RO removes all impurities and minerals from water"

Calcium itself is a mineral in water, and that is what you are trying to remove, so we know it removes that as a mineral. Discussion on the HB thread I linked talks about the potential of RO water to interfere with boiler fill cut offs because of the lack of minerals to act as a conductor. I can't find anything about an extra chemical stage of demineralisation.

Edit: yea Dave is a member, I would be interested to hear his thoughts on the matter. In the review he just says it can be a 'problem' with no suggestions to why.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Dylan said:


> Perhaps I am googling the wrong things, but everything I can find is simply along the lines of "Yes, RO removes all impurities and minerals from water"
> 
> Calcium itself is a mineral in water, and that is what you are trying to remove, so we know it removes that as a mineral. Discussion on the HB thread I linked talks about the potential of RO water to interfere with boiler fill cut offs because of the lack of minerals to act as a conductor. I can't find anything about an extra chemical stage of demineralisation.
> 
> Edit: yea Dave is a member, I would be interested to hear his thoughts on the matter. In the review he just says it can be a 'problem' with no suggestions to why.


Sorry Dylan, my mistake! I'm thinking of de-ionised water (electrically non-conductive) and confusing it with de-min. I shall now rewind the last few posts and read them again with my brain in gear.

Low-water sensors not working properly with de-min hadn't occurred to me though. But if BWT potassium were added, maybe that would put matters right (?)

Cheers,

Tony.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Haha, I see, no problem, I was doing my best to track down where we were getting our wires crossed!

The thread I linked to above in an interesting read, the primary problem people run into with RO it seems is that is distinctly and negatively affects flavour, in the linked thread one of the HB members talks about adding minerals to the PF in order to get this flavour back. No harm in getting an RO system, and seeing where your tastes lie, but be aware that you may have to put some minerals back in to get the flavour.

My personal preference (If I had invested in my dream machine, and I was in a hard water area) would be to plump in an RO system, re-min with a calcite filter and then do a yearly descale to remove whatever minor deposits may have settled in the boiler. I currently have lovely soft water, so I can skip the RO stage


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

teejay41 said:


> I thought I'd post the latest turmoils in my quest to decide on an ECM.
> 
> No decision yet. The more I try to narrow it down, the wider it seems to get. I think the good forum members who replied to the thread are all keen to give their own favourite a mention, so I've been considering machines I'd barely heard of before!
> 
> ...


Perhaps I can help a bit as I have been heavily involved in the design of 2 of the machines on the list. The original Duetto and the Verona.....The Duetto has disappeared up it's own arse in development, simply adding cost but little real improvements. The drip tray now is really small compared to the MK1 and MKII duettos. The PID they use now is presumable the same one as before, but I have not input to it's development since doing the top level design for them 7 or 8 years ago. Personally i would discount it in favour of the others on your list.

Your decision appears to be between the profitec and the QM Verona. So first bit of advice, ensure the machine you have, does have all the convenience features you want. To give you an example of what I mean. To me personally, a shot timer on the machine does not make me run down the street and cry whoopee do!!. Easy drain taps on extensions for the boiler is not something you can restrofit and does make me happy.

1. Steel Boilers....theres steel boilers and STEEL boilers. e.g. Vesuvius Boilers 1mm thick with 8mm end plates AISI 316 L (the L bit being very important)....these are going to last a very long time. Stainless Steel in many ways is not as corrosion resistant as copper or brass...especially around the welds and how they have been done. The Vesuvius boilers, definitely won't be a problem as they are very thick and super high quality. There is a steel boiler in another popular machine, with an embedded element that's perhaps 0.3 - 0.5mm thick (bean can) and the steel is not that great. So just because the profitec has steel, doesn't mean it's any better, it might be, it might not.

2. Descaling, your problem isn't corrosion of the machine (thick copper, brass, stainless, all going to be relatively OK with descaling) it's getting all the descaler out, without blocking any small ports or it sitting in a valve (so drain taps are handy) seat. Also better to use decent water in the first place....don't make this a deal breaker

3. Being able to drain the boilers easily is nice and certainly better than having to remove heating elements to do it!

4. The PID, check that the PID on the machine you choose has a proper dual loop PID, so the brew and steam boiler have their own independent algorithms. What's good for a brew boiler, is not good for the steam boiler. Also look for the PID having a "Band function", this is something that allows you to set the temperature range over which it begins acting like a PID. e.g. verona has this and for brew can be 5-7C, for steam can be 1-2C, because lets face it, the last thing you want a PID doing when controlling the steam boiler, is acting like a PID7 C before the set point!

5. Check the machine can run in simultanious mode....it's such a drag when a machine only has brew boiler priority on UK Voltage and current. They work, but you can be left wishing the boilers worked simultaneously.

6. Look for a nice large internal water tank if your not going to plumb it

7. Ensure the Vac breaker vents into the drip tray

8. Check the heft and feel of portafilters, heavier is better (I also personally prefer chromed brass to steel ones)

9. Check the feet are height adjustable....so important

10 Lastly the pump...Horizontal mounting is good, but leaks can still get to the motor bearings, especially if/when weep hole blocks. Motor above pump....with the pump mounted above the motor in the Verona, it's probably never going to happen (water getting in the pump) and is an ideal configuration...also rather good for longevity as it's the best orientation for the pump to run in. The Verona pump mounting was validated with the pump manufacturer (I insisted QM did that), as before then, they had only documentation for Horizontal pump mounting.

Both machines are going to be very very good as ECM make good kit, even though I have not got around to reviewing the Profitec yet (not had time).....so look at the features you want and what you feel looks nice.

Also don't neglect the grinder...

Dave


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> Perhaps I can help a bit as I have been heavily involved in the design of 2 of the machines on the list. The original Duetto and the Verona.....The Duetto has disappeared up it's own arse in development, simply adding cost but little real improvements. The drip tray now is really small compared to the MK1 and MKII duettos. The PID they use now is presumable the same one as before, but I have not input to it's development since doing the top level design for them 7 or 8 years ago. Personally i would discount it in favour of the others on your list.
> 
> Your decision appears to be between the profitec and the QM Verona. So first bit of advice, ensure the machine you have, does have all the convenience features you want. To give you an example of what I mean. To me personally, a shot timer on the machine does not make me run down the street and cry whoopee do!!. Easy drain taps on extensions for the boiler is not something you can restrofit and does make me happy.
> 
> ...


Hello Dave... great to talk to you, and thank you so much for taking the time to involve yourself with the thread.

I am delighted that you have pretty much reinforced each of your own design features from your 'Closer Look' review which are what endeared me to the Verona in the first place.

Point-by-point, perhaps I might make the following observations:

1) - I'd already decided in favour of brass and copper rather than steel. Your comment about possible iffy end-plate welding merely endorses that view.

2) and 3) - With you all the way there... a major feature in favour of 'your' Verona.

4), 5), 6), 7) and 8) - Ditto above reply for 2) and 3).

9) - Don't they all have adjustable feet? Both the Verona and the Profitec appear to have, so no preference there.

10) - Your statement "Motor above pump....well it's probably never going to happen and would be the ideal configuration..." puzzles me, for surely, isn't this exactly how the Verona is configured? I certainly hope so, for it's one of its major attractions - a veritable USP in my book! The pictures in your in-depth review appear to show it like that, mounted vertically on the RHS behind the PID. Or were they photos of a prototype, with the 'upside down' pump/motor assembly never production implemented? Please enlighten.

In terms of grinder, it's a very recently purchased Mazzer SJ (Doser model). Until a week or two ago, I had only an Iberital MC2, acquired S/H along with an equally S/H Gaggia New Baby (my one and only machine until this coming Friday, hopefully). I got the SJ for a relative song from the administrators of a greasy-spoon cafe, gone bust. I know it was a greasy spoon, for they had a extremely greasy grinder! However, it cleaned up beautifully and with a set of genuine Mazzer replacement burrs, performs like new. I took the trouble to check the lower burr carrier plate for distortion or a possible warped motor shaft, using a dial-gauge, and was delighted to find it ran dead true. With the machine spotless and the new burrs in place, on adjusting the burrs until they JUST began to touch and made the merest 'tsing', the coarse/fine label on the knurled ring had its central arrow dead on the engraved register mark, suggesting that the grinder is now in exactly the condition as when it left the factory.

While I accept the SJ is but lower-middle in grinder terms, I can't entertain upgrading it just yet, for the new burrs haven't even run-in properly (can't remember the correct term), and the machine is still something of a 'new toy'. But all in good time, no doubt. It's a marked step up from the Iberital, that's for sure. And I've only been 'into' espresso since early March. Before that I was still on Gold Blend (wash my mouth with soap!). So far, I've had mainly Rave Signature and Italian Job, with a couple of 250g single origin just to try.

Thanks again, Dave, for your kind and informative response to the thread. I reckon from now on though, it's Verona all the way... Rah, Rah!

Espresso's a bit like Golf really... looks dead easy, but eee bah gum, it ain't! And that's the attraction!

Cheers,

Tony.


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

I do indeed have the Verona and upgraded to it from the Expobar. And what a heck of an upgrade its turned out to be. I put a new .5mm wbc gicluer (which spence already did before) and haven't had to do a thing to the machine since apart from a descale (which is a total piece of pi55 with the two taps which sit under each boiler - vs expo which was a PITA to descale with tonnes of flushes. The Rotary pump is very stable as is the PID. Changes in temp seem much faster on this machine vs my old Expo and recovery is negligible. Steaming milk is very powerful and at first takes a little getting used to. Spence had the machine on a Scace and Fluke prior to me buying it so the temps are exact what they say on the PID which is very worth doing and also degates the hassle

of guessing the offset by flashing to steam. Footprint is bigger than the expo and it's very heavy. The only issue I find with the Verona and I'm really nit picking here - is that I'd like the group head to have a little more clearance (maybe an inch or so). But that's all. It's a real top machine.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

gman147 said:


> I do indeed have the Verona and upgraded to it from the Expobar. And what a heck of an upgrade its turned out to be. I put a new .5mm wbc gicluer (which spence already did before) and haven't had to do a thing to the machine since apart from a descale (which is a total piece of pi55 with the two taps which sit under each boiler - vs expo which was a PITA to descale with tonnes of flushes. The Rotary pump is very stable as is the PID. Changes in temp seem much faster on this machine vs my old Expo and recovery is negligible. Steaming milk is very powerful and at first takes a little getting used to. Spence had the machine on a Scace and Fluke prior to me buying it so the temps are exact what they say on the PID which is very worth doing and also degates the hassle
> 
> of guessing the offset by flashing to steam. Footprint is bigger than the expo and it's very heavy. The only issue I find with the Verona and I'm really nit picking here - is that I'd like the group head to have a little more clearance (maybe an inch or so). But that's all. It's a real top machine.


Thanks gman, for your post.

I'm not sure you realise quite how much of a coffee noob I am, for I didn't 'get' your bit of jargon - '.5mm wbc gicluer'. Perhaps you'd enlighten me. The rest I followed OK.

I believe from Dave Corby's 'Closer Look at the Verona' that its grouphead clearance is improved from the Vetrano, on which it's based. So I'm surprised you feel it's not enough.

Would BB have a Scace and Fluke to check the PID temps, do you think?

I'd considered an Expo but wanted rotary and Expo's rotary is plumb-in only with no reservoir option, which makes it a nightmare to descale (remove boilers and soak in citric). Claudette won't stock it for that reason. Glad I've landed on the Verona.

Cheers,

Tony.


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Re clearance - It is enough; I'd just like it to have even more clearance as now I use a Acaia scale so would be nice to have a larger area.

The gicleur is Just the water jet hole bolt that sits inside the e61.

Someone on here will have a Scace you can borrow I'm sure.

Have you looked at the ECM machines?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

teejay41 said:


> 10) - Your statement "Motor above pump....well it's probably never going to happen and would be the ideal configuration..." puzzles me, for surely, isn't this exactly how the Verona is configured? I certainly hope so, for it's one of its major attractions - a veritable USP in my book! The pictures in your in-depth review appear to show it like that, mounted vertically on the RHS behind the PID. Or were they photos of a prototype, with the 'upside down' pump/motor assembly never production implemented? Please enlighten.


I meant it's never going to happen referring to water damaging the motor! It's not going to flow upwards...







The Verona does have an ideal motor pump orientation....pump below motor. I( think a pop up or something may have made half the sentence disappear.

As for adjustable feet....I have seen more than a few machines in my time with feet that were not height adjustable! Some manufacturers changed and some still make machines where you can't adjust the height. The big problem with the majority of manufacturers....is, they simply won't listen....they always feel they know best....or simply throw any comment to their tech guy, who usually files it in the bin.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> I meant it's never going to happen referring to water damaging the motor! It's not going to flow upwards...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks again Dave.

I can now hit the sack happy and think about going to BB on Friday. I'll certainly look at the Profitec etc, but my mind is already made up. No contest, no brainer, walkover... call it what you will - it's Verona for me, for you can't change the 'innards just by looking, and it's the Verona's 'innards I want.

Tony - reassured.


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## Hoffmonkey (Apr 28, 2014)

I had this very dilemma - I wanted to upgrade from the Classic and Mignon - though I was trying to weigh up the relatively high cost of the Verona against a very pretty but somewhat cheaper HX (the Rocket Giotto)...

I had a couple of conversations with Claudette and was being swayed more towards the cheaper end of the spectrum... Then Dave C had a chat with me on the phone for a good half hour and talked me through the advantages/disadvantages of each. I ended up going for the Verona.

I love it.

I performed a descale after about 6 months I felt like my steam wand wasn't getting the power I wanted through, and also the steam boiler was banging/creaking/popping when it got up to temp which I guessed might be scale - the process really was very easy. I've no experience of de-scaling other machines apart from a Classic which is a piece of cake, so not really comparable! The water in Portishead is hard and I think that the BWT Bestmax filters only last a couple of days - I was using them for a bit longer - hence I was probably allowing a little scale to build up in the machine. (As a side point, with my total hardness test kit, I've noticed that the Brita filters last MUCH longer - like three times as long - subject for another discussion perhaps)

One other point I seem to remember about the profitec: no stainless steel chassis. It will rust eventually. Verona is pretty much stainless steel throughout.

Dave C knows his stuff. My advice would be to plump for the Verona, a 5 quid shot timer and a set of 30 quid scales (which will perish gradually with water ingress and coffee stains anyway)

Good luck!


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Thanks Hoff...

The more info, anecdotal experiences and advice I get, the closer I'm drawn towards the Verona, despite a couple of adverse reports I've read. Down to poor assembly I believe, which as it's hand-built is always a risk. But eventually all was well, with problems resolved and owners happy. One very telling PM I received explained how the owner felt unhappy with his new Verona (iffy factory assembly) and reurned it so he could rethink his whole strategy. Eventually he plumped for another Verona, as he couldn't find anything to better it. Says it all, really.

For me, learning that the Profitec's chassis/frame is not S/S and could eventually rust is its final nail.

Can't wait for my shopping trip to BB tomorrow. Verona, Verona... sounds like a Pavarotti chart-topper!


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Dylan said:


> Good thread here on RO and remineralising.
> 
> http://www.home-barista.com/knockbox/does-reverse-osmosis-water-filter-prevent-scale-buildup-t9551.html


I've just got round to viewing the above RO thread, and interesting reading it makes. As I mentioned in an earlier post, mains water here in Burton-on-Trent is very hard, predominantly with calcium and gypsum (circa 500ppm). Very nice for drinking icy cold, but not too kind to boilers. So RO was considered as a solution. Then a discussion ensued about remineralising the RO water with BWT or calcite cartridges etc., all a bit tiresome to do.

It occurs to me that an easy, but not perfect, solution might be simply to 'dilute' the RO water with a lesser amount of untreated fresh water. Say, 60:40 or 74:26... Does this seem sensible or am I 'thinking stupid'?

I know it would mean a certain amount of descaling is necessary, but far less than with 100% hard water, and with the boiler drains of a Verona, pretty straightforward to do. Although plumbable, I intend to use the Verona as integral tank for the time being until I'm clear on exactly which way to go.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

The 74:26 was just to see if everyone was still awake:drink:


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Yea it seems like that is the best option, experiment with what mix you like best, but I think it's sensible to aim for those bottles waters which are popular, I think getting near 120-150ppm is ideal if I remember correctly.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Read this for RO water treatment.

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/ro-water-copper-corrosion


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

*tapping foot 'very' patiently


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> Read this for RO water treatment.
> 
> http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/ro-water-copper-corrosion


Thanks again Dave. I'll read it tomorrow as I've been to BB today for a Verona and was a bit late getting back.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Mr O said:


> *tapping foot 'very' patiently


Well good thread-followers all, visited BB today and, as expected, relieved them of a Verona (and a few more bits and bobs besides).

Most enjoyable and informative afternoon with ultra-helpful Marko. Sampled the nicest ristretto I've ever tasted (which I pulled actually, under guidance) - huffs knuckles and polishes shirt-front - and managed my first little bit of latte art. Not quite what I had in mind, for it's more Monet in the style of Picasso but it's a start. Might post a photo if I feel up to the ridicule!

Great day out and shiny new toy. Oh Joy!


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Hastily looks up a Verona......


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Ohhhhhhhh very nice!!! Enjoy man. New toys are ace!

I did laugh at the freebie of the 1 pack of pull though.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Congratulations the Verona. The Quickmill machines do look the business.


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## dare (May 1, 2013)

Wow congrats Tony amazing machine.


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## Krax (Oct 26, 2014)

teejay41 said:


> Well good thread-followers all, visited BB today and, as expected, relieved them of a Verona (and a few more bits and bobs besides).
> 
> Most enjoyable and informative afternoon with ultra-helpful Marko. Great day out and shiny new toy. Oh Joy!


Congratulations Teejay on your new machine - I paid a visit to BB recently and Marko was of great help to me also. I could not make my mind up on the day having missed out on the offer Expobar and seeing all the other DB machines for the first time and all costing a lot more. Being able to compare the machines side by side and also ask the engineers input was invaluable. I had my new machine delivered this week, (I decided different to you, it was close, only personal preferences). I hope you enjoy your new machine as much as I am already doing mine.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Here's a photo for members such as Sk8-bizarre plus myself who were previously unsure what one looked like and saving you having to look one up.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Love the drip tray


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Krax said:


> Congratulations Teejay on your new machine - I paid a visit to BB recently and Marko was of great help to me also. I could not make my mind up on the day having missed out on the offer Expobar and seeing all the other DB machines for the first time and all costing a lot more. Being able to compare the machines side by side and also ask the engineers input was invaluable. I had my new machine delivered this week, (I decided different to you, it was close, only personal preferences). I hope you enjoy your new machine as much as I am already doing mine.


Congratulations D, on your second upgrade plunge in such a short space of time. Let me guess... Profitec 700?


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## Krax (Oct 26, 2014)

teejay41 said:


> Congratulations D, on your second upgrade plunge in such a short space of time. Let me guess... Profitec 700?


You are, of course, correct. There are pros and cons to both machines as well as aesthetic differences. I know you considered the Profitec initially, only I got used to having the inbuilt shot timer I fitted to my Classic


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Great machine, and an excellent choice. Stainless steel boilers too. Was torn between it and the Verona myself. I (almost) always time my shots, and have got used to using a separate LCD kitchen timer with push-to-start button. While I liked the idea of the 700's inbuilt-PID timer, I liked ever more, the Verona PID's double-loop programming for separate full PID control of both boilers. Horses for courses though. I think the Profitec looks slightly more elegant, but it was the under-the-bonnet stuff that clinched it for me.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

They're all great machines, distinguishable only by small details. You'll be making killer coffee with all these bad boys, and taking care of them thanks to good info from Davecuk. Congratulations to all that have got their hands on such machines.


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## Hoffmonkey (Apr 28, 2014)

Good choice! I'm very happy with mine and use it every day. Enjoy!


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## Krax (Oct 26, 2014)

Hi Teejay,

After reading your thread and having opted for the Profitec myself, I decided to check out the boiler control with the manufacturer.

They confirmed the Pro 700 has separate control loops for both brew and steam boilers. Whilst it does use the same PID parameters in both loops, these are optimised to provide the most stable brew temperature possible. This still results in good control of the less critical steam boiler pressure and better than the mechanical thermostats fitted to some machines.

I am not sure this will help making choose between any of the DB machines on offer any easier for others, only it has reassured me.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Agree with jeebsy, that drip tray is very sexy!!

Well done.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

teejay41 said:


> I've just got round to viewing the above RO thread, and interesting reading it makes. As I mentioned in an earlier post, mains water here in Burton-on-Trent is very hard, predominantly with calcium and gypsum (circa 500ppm). Very nice for drinking icy cold, but not too kind to boilers. So RO was considered as a solution. Then a discussion ensued about remineralising the RO water with BWT or calcite cartridges etc., all a bit tiresome to do.
> 
> It occurs to me that an easy, but not perfect, solution might be simply to 'dilute' the RO water with a lesser amount of untreated fresh water. Say, 60:40 or 75:25... Does this seem sensible or am I 'thinking stupid'?
> 
> I know it would mean a certain amount of descaling is necessary, but far less than with 100% hard water, and with the boiler drains of a Verona, pretty straightforward to do. Although plumbable, I intend to use the Verona as integral tank for the time being until I'm clear on exactly which way to go.


i have just measured my domestic supply water with a TDS meter and to my surprise it is only 223 ppm. I know I've seen it at 500+ before now, but it certainly is nowhere near that today. I've also measured some Icini bottled water and it's 237. But the biggest surprise was water from a Brita filter jug which read 318. However, it had sat in the jug for 36 hours or more. I refilled it and this time its TDS was 175. So mains water does vary from day to day - something I was already aware of. It doesn't seem to make much sense to buy bottled water though - certainly not the brand I have, but then although its TDS may be high, we don't know what its minerals comprise. Potassium good, calcium bad, I think.

Looks like further investigation is needed.


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## matharon (Dec 22, 2014)

Faced with a similar decision and coming to a similar short list this has been a most helpful thread.

Not yet made final choice yet though so keep the opinions coming please.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

matharon said:


> Faced with a similar decision and coming to a similar short list this has been a most helpful thread.
> 
> Not yet made final choice yet though so keep the opinions coming please.


As you'll know from the thread a week ago I went for the Verona and I couldn't be happier. There are a few things about the V that money can't buy on other machines. One such is the upside-down pump where, should it ever leak, the motor is safe. Its brass brew boiler cuts it with me too, although others, such as the Profi 700 go one better with S/S. Descaling is in the design plan with drain taps on both boilers, easily reached from beneath the machine, as are the heating elements. Stand-alone or plumb-in with full pipework provided, and top quality portafilters also helped swing it. I could go on (you certainly do!) but then I'm completely sold on the Verona anyway. At this level I reckon it comes down to first impressions, finickerty detail, gut feeling, and what the missus thinks that decide it. You're unlikely to go far wrong whichever you choose.

Go look at them, try one or two for real and talk to the good folk at Bella B... they know what they're doing, stock them all and have no axe to grind. Enjoy a BB visit, as I did.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

jeebsy said:


> If they use tapatalk


Woah! Deja Vu!


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