# Equipment upgraditis



## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

Well I have set myself off now on the subject of moving on from my Gaggia baby, Iberital MC2 setup, so here are my musings and all comments are greatly appreciated.

*Machine*

Expobar Office Pulsar - seems to be a lot of espresso machine for the money, though doesn`t have a full E61 grouphead with the little lever to do the extraction.

Nuova Simonelli Oscar - Again a good spec for the money, but all plastic body and no hot water tap for the lady wifes weekday americano.

Fracino Cherub - Uk built so I assume easy parts availability, but the bigger boiler and element wattage might mean a bigger hit on electricity usage, again no sexy little lever to play with when extracting.

Expobar Office Leva - seems to be the lowest price full E61 machine so full stainless steel finish with knobs and lever experience but a couple of hundred quid more than the others on my list.

Or do I save some more and get a more expensive machine, will I reap any additional coffee quality benefits.

*Grinder*

My Iberital MC2 seems to be pretty good but some comments I have read and a somewhat damning review on Bella Barista suggest I should seriously consider upgrading this too.

The Eureka Mignon got a great review suggesting it is the equal near enough of the Mazzer mini which is way more money.

Macap MC4 - is it any better?

Mahlkonig Vario - Mostly rave reviews but I am suspicious of new technology for the sake of it might not be as bullet proof as more traditional grinders over time.

Buy a second hand one off Ebay - maybe a lot of grinder foor the money could then cost a bit on refurb costs and no come back if it goes bang in some expensive way.

Other good well priced grinders that I have not come across yet.

Head now exploding with possibilities, definite no`s are plumbing in due to having very hard water where I am in Lincolnshire (I use a filter jug) and reluctance to start drilling holes and then deciding to have a kitchen reorganise with resulting cosmetic issues.

Don


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## sandykt (Dec 3, 2009)

Well with so many options, your head will be pounding. Expobar - I can't remember what I've read about them but I don't think it was too good. Try and get a machine which has an E61 as they are industry standard and solid. Easier to buy replacements/upgrades e.g. naked PF. What is your overall budget for machine & grinder?


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

I think that you shouldn't take a prosumer machine as being the best option necessarily. If you have the space for a commercial 1 group like iberital's l'anna, it would generally be a better option and probably cheaper. Only reason I went with the alex was space considerations.

Regarding grinders, I'd highly suggest a used mazzer super jolly/kony/robur off ebay if you can find one. Latter two again being rather large.

Because you have such hard water, either an under sink filter or ro unit may be the best option as a filter jug will have very little effect on tds whatsoever.

I'd also say I wouldn't definitely go for an e61 brewhead, la spaziale's vivaldi represents very good value for money and doesn't have an e61 brewhead and should still be very easy to get parts for.


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

I think I would be struggling for space with the Iberital l`anna, does look like quite a machine though, maybe a bit pricy at over 1 grand as is the Vivaldi. As to the filter jug, I am using the Brita Maxtra and going by the miniscule amount of scale in the kettle I assumed it was doing a good job in reducing TDS. Plumbing in would become an option when I rebuild the kitchen in a couple of years so you never know. I already have gone the naked PF route with the Gaggia, did shock myself to find that the PF when fully loaded gives a 26 gram shot. Did a weight check this morning, no wonder I vibrate gently after two of those on a Saturday or Sunday morning, almost twice the amount for a standard double.

SanyKT if you have any links for info regarding Expobar issues I would appreciate it, the Bella Barista reviews were universally positive for them which led to them being on the list.

Regarding total expenditure, as a tight scottish person I want the moon on a stick for less than a grand for machine and grinder, could sell on the Baby Dose and MC2 though given they both are working well.

Don


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## sandykt (Dec 3, 2009)

Don - search for thread started by MrShades - "Gaggia Classic - upgrade to what?". A very enjoyable and interesting thread which took all of us on a journey. Lee recommends MrShades stays away from Expobar - he will be the person to ask why. I have read good and bad things about the Expobar. I have to say for the price of an Expobar, if I could afford one, I would save a bit more and go for either a Quickmill or something similar. The reviews carried out by Bella Barista are very informative.

In terms of a grinder, I purchased mine new but there is nothing wrong with buying second hand and if you can grab a bargain from eBay, even better. I have a Mahlkonig Vario and initially found it very sensitive but that's because my previous grinder was small fry compared to it.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

DonRJ said:


> I think I would be struggling for space with the Iberital l`anna, does look like quite a machine though, maybe a bit pricy at over 1 grand as is the Vivaldi. As to the filter jug, I am using the Brita Maxtra and going by the miniscule amount of scale in the kettle I assumed it was doing a good job in reducing TDS. Plumbing in would become an option when I rebuild the kitchen in a couple of years so you never know. I already have gone the naked PF route with the Gaggia, did shock myself to find that the PF when fully loaded gives a 26 gram shot. Did a weight check this morning, no wonder I vibrate gently after two of those on a Saturday or Sunday morning, almost twice the amount for a standard double.
> 
> SanyKT if you have any links for info regarding Expobar issues I would appreciate it, the Bella Barista reviews were universally positive for them which led to them being on the list.
> 
> ...


Mmm regarding the price of a l'anna, they can often be had on ebay for not much and since they're commercial machines they're built to last. If you get a new machine which doesn't have an alu boiler like the gaggia does (think the baby caff has an alu boiler), then try running some citric acid through it and note how blue the water that comes out goes (brass/copper boiler). I know with my izzo, it was quite blue and there's about 16º hardness around here.

The bottomless basket for the gaggia is a triple, so yes, quite a bit of coffee fits in there. Standard double is around 18g, triple 26g, single 9g.

If you want the moon on a stick, get used machines from ebay which will be night and day better than a brand new machine at double the price.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

This is worth a read about water.

http://www.big-rick.com/coffee/waterfaq.html


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Mazzer mini timer which sold for £156.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/mazzer-coffee-grinder_W0QQitemZ260573129565QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Restaurant_RL?hash=item3cab5e6b5d

Mazzer super jolly which went for £200

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mazzer-Superjolly-coffee-grinder_W0QQitemZ160417008912QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Restaurant_RL?hash=item2559994d10

Better still, a super jolly currently @ £20

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/COSTA-COMMERCIAL-COFFEE-GRINDER_W0QQitemZ170469019518QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Restaurant_RL?hash=item27b0becf7e


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## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

A shame the last one is in London. Depending on the final price it might be worth the drive!


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## sandykt (Dec 3, 2009)

The middle one never got sold as it would seem seller might not have been happy with the price (checkout feedback).


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## Greenpotterer (Nov 29, 2009)

Is this one worth a punt

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MACAP-COFFEE-GRINDER-VERY-GOOD-CONDITION_W0QQitemZ280485241357QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Restaurant_RL?hash=item414e39220d#ht_500wt_1182

which model is it?


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## Monkey_Boy (Feb 26, 2010)

I rode to London to pick up my grinder, well worth the trip!!.....saved a bucket load


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## LeeWardle (Nov 16, 2008)

Iv'e been chatting to Don RJ via PM about this. I hope you don't mind Don but I thought I would share some of my last message with the group for future ref. and any opinions.



> The office pulsar I have used, worked on and sold before. The steam is very very gentle, much more so than a Rancilio Silvia. Also the boiler runs really hot and tends to burn the hell out of the coffee. It is also sold as a Stafco mega office.
> 
> The one from the link (ED. leva listed in Don's first post) is pretty much the same machine as the pulsar but you can plumb it. It also has stlightly better case material, but the inside is the same.
> 
> ...


Also, having worked on lots of Fracino machines, whilst they are UK company (Brum) unfortunatly there machines ***IN MY OPINION*** are cobbled together from stock parts, are a nightmare to work on, have some really pants parts in some really stupid places (wheras a little more thought would solve that) which turns a simple 30 min job into a 1 hour job. I've worked on loads of their machines from Pro-sumer not quite commercial machines to 3 group, grinders (which are usually compak or cunil re-badges) instant vending machines etc etc. I have found the same issues in all these machines.

Of course I'm speaking form an engineers POV here, so extra picky. However it all comes down to what you can afford and what is better than what for a particular price point in the end!

Kind regards

Lee

P.S. Don't mean to "brand-bash" just trying to give you some info based on my own experiences.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

LeeWardle said:


> Iv'e been chatting to Don RJ via PM about this. I hope you don't mind Don but I thought I would share some of my last message with the group for future ref. and any opinions.
> 
> Also, having worked on lots of Fracino machines, whilst they are UK company (Brum) unfortunatly there machines ***IN MY OPINION*** are cobbled together from stock parts, are a nightmare to work on, have some really pants parts in some really stupid places (wheras a little more thought would solve that) which turns a simple 30 min job into a 1 hour job. I've worked on loads of their machines from Pro-sumer not quite commercial machines to 3 group, grinders (which are usually compak or cunil re-badges) instant vending machines etc etc. I have found the same issues in all these machines.
> 
> ...


Mmm, l'anna is a good bet, either used or not. But then you could consider la spaziale used, or an izzo vivi, izzo alex, so on and so forth.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Greenpotterer said:


> Is this one worth a punt
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MACAP-COFFEE-GRINDER-VERY-GOOD-CONDITION_W0QQitemZ280485241357QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Restaurant_RL?hash=item414e39220d#ht_500wt_1182
> 
> which model is it?


Looks like a macap mc7? http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/PRD_ProductDetail.aspx?cid=83&prodid=410&Product=MACAP-Deli-Coffee-and-Espresso-Grinder

I'd take the mazzer super jolly any day of the week.


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

Re: the Expobar machines I have been consdering, I looked at the in depth articles on Bella barista and I think Lee is mistaken about the boilers, they have 1.5L HX copper boilers not thermoblocks so I assume they should be pretty powerful steamers. When the time comes for a purchase I will be aiming to get some proper hands on with some machines anyway so hopefully that should help with decision making. Time and money will tell.

Thanks for all the comments anyway.

Don


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## LeeWardle (Nov 16, 2008)

Hi Don,

They may not be thermo block in the traditional sense but I don't think they are a boiler with seperate element and a copper heat exchange. I think the boiler is simelar to that of a baby gaggiamanualservice where by it's a copper vessel with a thermo block outer element that heats the vessel in it's entirety. The steam on these is seriously poor mate. Due to the lack of steam the wand only has one hole in the tip Which is tapered to a point.

Lee


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## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

Sounds like a frustrating time Don. There will always be better machines, and faults with most. You need to determine whether:


Keep as you are

Save up some more

Buy the nest machine that you can afford, with eyes open regarding its faults


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

I have done some more on line reading and researching machines using a slightly more scientific approach than my usual technique which consists of "ooh that looks cool" and "OOh looks like a bargain" and finally "wants it my precious"

1. How much space do I actually have to site a machine without compromising the function of the kitchen which is my domain from a food production point of view.

2. What exactly do I want to produce in terms of espressos and milky drinks, how many, how often and how much milk to steam etc.

3. What is my personal equation as regards looks versus function.

4. Read all the online reviews to try and get a good feel for user experiences and expectations.

5 Try to ascertain the availability of parts, manufacturer presence in the UK.

6 Finally, how much am I really prepared to spend.

You may have gathered already that I have way too much time on my hands at the moment, which is true. Off work for an extended period following orthopaedic surgery, not even allowed to drive for a month.

Anyway, I have set my budget and started narrowing my short list, so far the Fracino Cherub has been sacked due to its size (its too deep),I accept Lee`s comments about working on them but that in itself wouldn`t have been an issue as i would do my own maintenance. The Expobar Office range do have a steaming issue as Lee said which I think is down to two factors, the one hole steaming tip which would be an easy fix but more importantly I have formed a suspicion that the vertical rather than horizontal boiler mounting may be a factor. Less surface area of water for a given boiler capacity being the factor. That ruled out some other options on the same principle. Not saying I am right on this idea but it seemed to make sense. Please correct me if this is a false assumption.

EDIT Changed my mind on this one after unearthing some more reviews and deciding that the steaming performance is poor in comparison to a full on commercial machine but significantly better than my wee Baby and a steam tip change will speed it up if neccessary EDIT

The current short list is getting shorter, did contemplate bidding on the "Butterfly" on Ebay but it was near 400 quid when I last looked, too much for a machine of unknown provenance in my book. I think tomorrow will be the decision day, just a few phone calls to make.

Don


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

Well my initial purchase plan went badly, I was going to buy an Oscar but the last one in stock was sold and the company have discontinued the product. Phoned the new UK supplier who have not even managed to answer my request for price and take an order if the price was right. Not very inspiring so I have spat my dummy out and will look elsewhere tomorrow.

Still going for budget HX machine though.

Don


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## sandykt (Dec 3, 2009)

Give the company another go tomorrow. If you're about to spend some serious money, they might just wake up and smell the coffee - if you pardon the pun!!


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

Spoke to the new Nuova Simonelli supplier who had not got back to me yesterday, they quoted £1k for the Oscar, I laughed and told them it was £629 with the previous retailer and if I was brave I could get one for £525 delivered from Elektros, a retailer in Italy, not that I am going to due to the warranty issues. Anyway thats put paid to the Oscar, for that money I could have a dual boiler Expobar with PID. So the search goes on and I am sticking to my £600 budget in the firm belief that I can buy a machine to meet my needs and what I will be missing out on is to a very great extent cosmetics not function. Not that I wouldn`t like all the eye candy though.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

DonRJ said:


> Spoke to the new Nuova Simonelli supplier who had not got back to me yesterday, they quoted £1k for the Oscar, I laughed and told them it was £629 with the previous retailer and if I was brave I could get one for £525 delivered from Elektros, a retailer in Italy, not that I am going to due to the warranty issues. Anyway thats put paid to the Oscar, for that money I could have a dual boiler Expobar with PID. So the search goes on and I am sticking to my £600 budget in the firm belief that I can buy a machine to meet my needs and what I will be missing out on is to a very great extent cosmetics not function. Not that I wouldn`t like all the eye candy though.


Keep looking on ebay and I'm sure you'll find something which matches both, I picked up the alex for that.


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## ChiarasDad (Mar 21, 2010)

Looks like another Butterfly has turned up:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Scala-Butterfly-Single-group-E69-HX-Espresso-Machine-/320525892823?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Coffee_Machines_Makers&hash=item4aa0d4fcd7


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## sandykt (Dec 3, 2009)

Mmmmmm........ machine is 5 years old though. Might be worth watching.


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

I will not look, I will not look, get thee behind me etc. Noooo I looked.

Seriously though, I am very pleased with the Silvia and especially once the PID is in do not expect to be getting a different machine for a long time. Especially as Sadie has given the whole project in terms of how it fits into the kitchen and most importantly an even better morning coffee.

Looks nice that Butterfly though, last one went for just shy of £400 and that was without me putting bids in.

Don


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## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

I'm wondering about saving my pennies for a dual boiler - but it is tempting.


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