# ACS Minima Beta Machines - creating list of people who want one



## DavecUK

This post is on behalf of ACS. I was going to use the for sale thread, but I realise this thread will do. The development costs for the Minima have been significant and Beta machines are priced purely to recover a small portion of these costs. Retail prices will be significantly higher, so this is a one time shot. *There are only 10 machines available.*

*
**The cost of a Beta unit will be £849 plus £20 contribution for airfreight to you (this may increase if your location has higher costs than normal UK locations). *These costs all include VAT and are not negotiable. The warranty will be 2 years parts only.

There is a thread on the Minima https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?43909-Beta-Testers-wanted-for-Minima it's a long thread and people have been expressing interest from quite early on. I have tried to keep track of those people, but* the time has come to draw up a list of those who **definitely** wish to participate.* The small software bug on steam temperature in the Gicar will be rectified, so the machines delivered should not have this bug....however, at this time consider the review information as something to base your decision on and I urge you to read it carefully.

https://wp.me/p7LpqI-6Z

*If you want to participate please request it on this thread...I will draw up a short-list and contact you via pm with the information I need to forward to ACS....**there is no rush to be first on this list the decision will be made based on the above "beta testers wanted for Minima thread" and your post on there. Just your forum name is required, do not post any personal information on this thread.*

It is expected that beta testers will be willing to give feedback on the machine (good or bad), as people just trying to snag a cheap machine are not helping the development process. An area will be available on the ACS support forum for Beta testers to post about the machine and allow the designer to see how it is being received and ask questions of the beta testers, this area will be publicly viewable (not hidden) and you are welcome to cross post on here if you wish to.

P.S. If you have questions ask them on this https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?43909-Beta-Testers-wanted-for-Minima thread not here. I will ask moderators to remove any posts here that are not people who wish to participate.


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## Hasi

First responder responding first: in for the challenge!

PS: just don't tell me postage to Austria is a grand


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## Rob1

I've read the review and I'm still in.


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## moots

Yes please.

The videos in the review were an informative watch. I'd be delighted to provide beta feedback.


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## ncrc51

I'd still pay for the machine plus reasonable shipping to the U.S., but this is understandably something ACS does not want pursue. Now there's probably a tariff to deal with as well as shipping cost.


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## DavecUK

ncrc51 said:


> I'd still pay for the machine plus reasonable shipping to the U.S., but this is understandably something ACS does not want pursue. Now there's probably a tariff to deal with as well as shipping cost.


I will ask them if they can make it happen as a special....no promises of course. I realise you have been in right from the beginning.


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## Paolo_Cortese

ncrc51 said:


> I'd still pay for the machine plus reasonable shipping to the U.S., but this is understandably something ACS does not want pursue. Now there's probably a tariff to deal with as well as shipping cost.


I have one machine 120/60 that I could ship, let me check if I can ship or already reserved for one of our dealers in US. In any case I'll let you know also the shipping cost.

Paolo


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## ncrc51

Paolo_Cortese said:


> I have one machine 120/60 that I could ship, let me check if I can ship or already reserved for one of our dealers in US. In any case I'll let you know also the shipping cost.
> 
> Paolo


Thanks so much.


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## DavecUK

I thought I would also put a video after up a detailed tests with the 2 hole tip....it was interesting as it's not massively slower.


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## DavecUK

***************UPDATE**********

There are actually only 5 UK spec machines available (the USA machine is not included in this 5). *As 3 have already expressed interest on this thread in the 230/240V machines, this leaves 2 machines only.* I have had an e-mail from someone yesterday, who is also interested, but advised them to post on this thread in the interests of transparency....If they do only 1 machine will remain.

Please remember these are Beta machines, so may have differences and Idiosyncrasies from production models. As always though I do have some news of things that are planned to happen for the Beta machines before you get them....the level of certainty will be indicated as a percentage.

1. Gicar are being asked to change the firmware to remove steam temperature display bug that is not actually usage affecting (95%)

2. Gicar are being asked to extend Last shot protection to include disabling service boiler autofill as well, so it works the same as a Vesuvius (70%)

3. Changes to the capillary tube for the brew pressure gauge to give a steadier needle, no guarantee it will be steadier. Yesterday my needle went from steady to quivering, I put it down to a too short capillary tube? may or may not stop the problem (100%)

4. Minor additions to the accessory kit (90%)

5. Possibility of adding some extra factory price accessories to the machine for perhaps an extra £10 (80%)

Sure it's not super detailed, but then this is the nature of Betas and the price more than reflects this.........


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## Rakesh

I'm interested.


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## Instant no more !

Hi I would like one if I can pay by credit card , I like the simple design and decades of use statment also being able to continue a shot without the machine cutting out if the tank level is low ,big capasity boiler sounds like a great design


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## DavecUK

Instant no more ! said:


> Hi I would like one if I can pay by credit card , I like the simple design and decades of use statment also being able to continue a shot without the machine cutting out if the tank level is low ,big capasity boiler sounds like a great design


I have no idea about payments, the only thing I do know is it's a money transfer in Euros to a European bank...so I think you can use paypal/credit card, but I'm not sure (fees will be higher i think). Also it might be that your credit card can do a payment direct to a european bank....I don't know I don't use Credit cards very much. Hopefully ACS will see this post and advise.


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## BaggaZee

Instant no more ! said:


> Hi I would like one if I can pay by credit card , I like the simple design and decades of use statment also being able to continue a shot without the machine cutting out if the tank level is low ,big capasity boiler sounds like a great design


FYI I used a credit card and transferwise.com to pay for the Vesuvius as they were much cheaper for forex than my bank.


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## Jony

My Bank fee was £12


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## Banjoman

My bank fee on my Vesuvius was £9, but the exchange difference (loss) was about £70 (on a price of about £2400). There are 2 points at which you lose out on the exchange difference - the first is ACS's conversion from the £ price to the Euro price, the second is the bank exchange from £ in your bank account to pay the Euro price. This is probably the old-fashioned (and more costly!) way to do it (i.e. with my bank), so worth investigating the transferwise.com route as described by BaggaZee above, but presumably still 2 points at which the exchange difference bites. (I've got no complaints with these exchange losses. They are inevitable but they are small additional costs to be aware of on the euro transaction.)


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## Hasi

Thanks to some grandiose eggheads you UKers never had the convenience of shopping around mainland EU for... ahem ...free - as it was meant to be. Oh and thanks to others of similar pedigree it'll probably stay that way until the cows come home


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## Banjoman

Don't start off the Brexit debate on here! It'll never end ...


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## Hasi

Banjoman said:


> Don't start off the Brexit debate on here! It'll never end ...


aah let me troll for once, please?


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## DavecUK

errorOK..Update.

Please send me the following details by pm, I will organise the list and pass to ACS....they will then keep you informed directly about what to do re payments and when etc.. I don't really know anything about that. Remember the cost is £848 + £20 towards air shipping. VAT is included. It's around £400 or more less than it will cost at retail and reflects the fact it's a Beta.

The details I need pm to me (don't post it on the forum) are *Name, Address, E-mail*, ACS will use this to contact you and check that air shipping will indeed be only a £20 contribution

*Until otherwise informed you MUST assume the beta machine **https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2018/08/04/acs-minima/** and supplied accessories will be as per the beta review review. Although there could be minor differences, such is the nature of Betas, but in all important aspects of operation, the machines will be the same. It's pretty much certain that everything below will happen...but from my own personal perspective, I can only speak for the particular unit I reviewed, so assuming none of it will happen is your safest bet and then you can be pleasantly surprised when it does.. *

*
*

1. Gicar are being asked to change the firmware to remove steam temperature display bug that is not actually usage affecting (95%)

2. Gicar are being asked to extend Last shot protection to include disabling service boiler autofill as well, so it works the same as a Vesuvius (70%)

3. Changes to the capillary tube for the brew pressure gauge to give a steadier needle, no guarantee it will be steadier. Yesterday my needle went from steady to quivering, I put it down to a too short capillary tube? may or may not stop the problem (100%)

4. Minor additions to the accessory kit (90%)

5. Possibility of adding some extra factory price accessories to the machine for perhaps an extra £10 (80%)

At the moment, my part in this is to ensure that the changes are done as required (I'll be using photo evidence), although I won't be able to test the Gicar revisions if/when done, you guys will be doing that. I can give guidance on how. I need to make sure they are clear on the accessories with a list (I've already done this). This Beta is important to ACS as your comments will shape the production version.

There are some future plans for the machine long term and if I get involved I will try and make sure they are backwards compatible for intrepid individuals who may want to fit them. The machine will always remain retro functionally and the core of the Minima may well form a range of future machines and variants. By the core I mean electronics, boilers piping group and pumps...Imagine that lot as a modular lump...a bit like the engine of a car. That bit works really well together and doesn't need testing....then everything else that surrounds it is the only thing that's new e.g.:


Colours

Materials

Simple Pressure Profiling

Shapes

Fittings


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## Rakesh

Would a joystick conversion for steam and hot water be possible on the minima?


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## Paolo_Cortese

Banjoman said:


> My bank fee on my Vesuvius was £9, but the exchange difference (loss) was about £70 (on a price of about £2400). There are 2 points at which you lose out on the exchange difference - the first is ACS's conversion from the £ price to the Euro price, the second is the bank exchange from £ in your bank account to pay the Euro price. This is probably the old-fashioned (and more costly!) way to do it (i.e. with my bank), so worth investigating the transferwise.com route as described by BaggaZee above, but presumably still 2 points at which the exchange difference bites. (I've got no complaints with these exchange losses. They are inevitable but they are small additional costs to be aware of on the euro transaction.)


Basically i make a conversion when i send the email, often not everybody have the same ammount, always small difference. The problem ( i think) is always that the banks or money transfer system have always 2 different rates if you sell or buy like in the airport. if you change 100 euro in GBP and than change again what you have received in Euro will never reach 100 euro. This is a paly system. I'm sorry but i think that from my side i cannot do more than offer our machines at very reasonable price for the forum users especially if compared with distributor price, also our after sales assistance to who have found problems with machines is very good, i'm afraid to not read too much about that, normally we definite and ship the parts in 24/48 hours. For any doubt i'm to your disposition.

Paolo


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## Paolo_Cortese

Rakesh said:


> Would a joystick conversion for steam and hot water be possible on the minima?


yes it's possible, of course the lenght is different, the joystick is longer.

Paolo


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## DavecUK

OK so far I have 4 confirmed who have pm'ed me details to pass on to ACS. There are 5 machines available, so one left for anyone else who wants to participate.


Rakesh

Rob1

Hasi

moots


@Instant no more! I have still not had any details from yourself....are you still interested?


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## moots

Paolo_Cortese said:


> yes it's possible, of course the lenght is different, the joystick is longer.
> 
> Paolo


That would be great, I'm interested in the possibility of doing a joystick conversion too.


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## Instant no more !

Hi , I have had a think about the beta machine and at the moment I will withdraw from this ,

I need to fix my ECM Barista so will need the money for this.

Hope you understand

Thanks


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## Rob1

@Paolo_Cortese so how what is the price in Euros? There shouldn't be a conversion loss on your end surely, as the bank is converting the payment to euros when it's sent?


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## DavecUK

Instant no more ! said:


> Hi , I have had a think about the beta machine and at the moment I will withdraw from this ,
> 
> I need to fix my ECM Barista so will need the money for this.
> 
> Hope you understand
> 
> Thanks


Not a problem, that leaves 1 machine remaining if anyone else is interested....Andrew was with me today and we pulled some nice shots on the Minima with his nice (and expensive) coffee, plus some of my old rubbish.


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## Jony

Wouldn't it be good if you had Airbnb,ha


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## Paolo_Cortese

Rob1 said:


> @Paolo_Cortese so how what is the price in Euros? There shouldn't be a conversion loss on your end surely, as the bank is converting the payment to euros when it's sent?


The price in euro shipping included is 970 euro. When I ask payment I ask in euro, I mean that my email is "the payment on this account is 970 euro" and our customer send 970 euro there is no conversion from my side. You have to ask to your bank how much cost to send 970 euro and you will finally find your total cost. I hope that I'm clear.


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## ryan111

I am interested, sent a PM too


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## Paolo_Cortese

moots said:


> That would be great, I'm interested in the possibility of doing a joystick conversion too.


I have to change what i told you before, the conversion it's not possible because the steam wand touch the knob of the steam tap and water also, i should change the design of the wand also and honestly the machine looks very bad because the long joystick go over of the foot print too much.


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## DavecUK

Guys I checked out the toggle valves as well, they would actually come way outside the footprint of the machine and look really weird. I have talked to Paolo about investigating some other options around wood handles and knobs, because perhaps those can be fitted at factory, but the circular valve knobs and shorter valves do seem to make a lot more sense.


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## Rakesh

Paolo_Cortese said:


> The price in euro shipping included is 970 euro. When I ask payment I ask in euro, I mean that my email is "the payment on this account is 970 euro" and our customer send 970 euro there is no conversion from my side. You have to ask to your bank how much cost to send 970 euro and you will finally find your total cost. I hope that I'm clear.


So would the price be £860 posted if paying via paypal or more to compensate for conversion loss?


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## DavecUK

Rakesh said:


> So would the price be £860 posted if paying via paypal or more to compensate for conversion loss?


that question is only answerable by paypal, they charge the conversion rates...not ACS.


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## Jony

I am sure it's only bank card no paypal, it was when I paid last time


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## Rakesh

DavecUK said:


> that question is only answerable by paypal, they charge the conversion rates...not ACS.


I see, as of yet if I go onto the paypal site and select sending money abroad, for ACS to receive 970 euros I would have to send £906.84 which is a £46 loss due to the conversion. If transferring the money through the bank would conversion fees be a lot less? I have no experience in sending such large amounts abroad.


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## DavecUK

Rakesh said:


> I see, as of yet if I go onto the paypal site and select sending money abroad, for ACS to receive 970 euros I would have to send £906.84 which is a £46 loss due to the conversion. If transferring the money through the bank would conversion fees be a lot less? I have no experience in sending such large amounts abroad.


You can only ask your bank....from ACS perspective, they simply get 970 or whatever it is in Euros, all conversion charges are the bank or paypal...

search around there are other ways

https://transferwise.com/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&matchtype=b&device=c&creative=151943315496&keyword=%2Bpayment%20to%20%2Beuro&campaignid=139376454&adgroupid=8028907134&utm_campaign=139376454___8028907134&gclid=CjwKCAjwzqPcBRAnEiwAzKRgS2UsrZyFSrSqoRWLDkesNQZ_tp1kUhZ28T7Va90uhJWPfSRCyKAUJRoCXakQAvD_BwE


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## Rakesh

DavecUK said:


> You can only ask your bank....from ACS perspective, they simply get 970 or whatever it is in Euros, all conversion charges are the bank or paypal...
> 
> search around there are other ways
> 
> https://transferwise.com/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&matchtype=b&device=c&creative=151943315496&keyword=%2Bpayment%20to%20%2Beuro&campaignid=139376454&adgroupid=8028907134&utm_campaign=139376454___8028907134&gclid=CjwKCAjwzqPcBRAnEiwAzKRgS2UsrZyFSrSqoRWLDkesNQZ_tp1kUhZ28T7Va90uhJWPfSRCyKAUJRoCXakQAvD_BwE


I think I may transfer through the bank as the fees for my bank (Barclays) would be just £15


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## Jony

Will be far easier to do that. just cover the Euro rate.


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## DavecUK

Rakesh said:


> I think I may transfer through the bank as the fees for my bank (Barclays) would be just £15


Seems the best way


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## moots

+1 for Transferwise. I used them recently to pay someone in Norway in NOK. Was easy and rate was fine.


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## Rakesh

moots said:


> +1 for Transferwise. I used them recently to pay someone in Norway in NOK. Was easy and rate was fine.


I'm about to use Transferwise to pay but am surprised by how easy it is to use, all I need is the IBAN number which seems almost too easy.


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## DavecUK

Rakesh said:


> I'm about to use Transferwise to pay but am surprised by how easy it is to use, all I need is the IBAN number which seems almost too easy.


Dunno, just found it on that money saving website...never done anything like it myself, yet. I used to wonder about keeping a euro credit card and then using that on hols, but i don't really travel to europe enough (at all) to make it worthwhile.


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## Rakesh

DavecUK said:


> Dunno, just found it on that money saving website...never done anything like it myself, yet. I used to wonder about keeping a euro credit card and then using that on hols, but i don't really travel to europe enough (at all) to make it worthwhile.


Well I have now paid the full amount via TransferWise which costed me £871.93 and I eagerly anticipate the arrival of the machine.


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## DavecUK

Rakesh said:


> Well I have now paid the full amount via TransferWise which costed me £871.93 and I eagerly anticipate the arrival of the machine.


Well lets hope Gicar pull their finger out doing that software change......


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## Hasi

Payment? Done? Shipping? What?!

Have I missed something?


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## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> Payment? Done? Shipping? What?!
> 
> Have I missed something?


I'm going to guess here...did you add the £20 gbp for shipping contribution, because they are air shipped, and if not UK might be a slightly different price?


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## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> I'm going to guess here...did you add the £20 gbp for shipping contribution, because they are air shipped, and if not UK might be a slightly different price?


Nah, haven't received the IBAN ...or have I been sleeping?


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## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> Nah, haven't received the IBAN ...or have I been sleeping?


You mean ACS have not contacted you yet to ask for payment?


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## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> You mean ACS have not contacted you yet to ask for payment?


They did just today







...heven't checked my mail until now


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## moots

Money sent via TransferWise. I'm looking forward to pairing the Minima and my Classic with a Quiche* Zero. Hopefully soonish!

(* I can't stop thinking of the Niche as a 'Quiche' since DaveC's recent video...)


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## DavecUK

Small and unimpressive.....


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## moots

I really want a Moanalith, obvs.


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## ajohn

Rakesh said:


> So would the price be £860 posted if paying via paypal or more to compensate for conversion loss?


Paypal usually work out cheaper than any UK bank when a currency is involved mainly down to the transaction charge banks stick on but the person you are buying from might not like the fee they pay if it's made via for goods or services. If a buyer pays that there probably isn't much difference, in fact the bank may be a touch cheaper but exchange rates vary.

If Davec starts travelling around this lot really do offer something convenient for changing currencies

https://www.revolut.com/

also probably transfers but people will need to take a look. All done on a mobile phone.

John

-


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## moots

DavecUK said:


> Well lets hope Gicar pull their finger out doing that software change......


Indeed. If not, is it possible to update the Gicar firmware later?


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## DavecUK

moots said:


> Indeed. If not, is it possible to update the Gicar firmware later?


Not for us, ACS can do it. However, the intention is for it to be done.


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## moots

Thank you Dave


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## Rob1

Paid using transferwise. 1 GBP = 1.11 EUR. I'd like to say GBP can't sink much lower but our prime minister might not be done dancing yet.


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## Hasi

Paid using bank wire. 1EUR=1EUR, no fees


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## ocalld

Hi

are there any of these machines remaining unsold?

i would be interested in one

thanks


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## DavecUK

ocalld said:


> Hi
> 
> are there any of these machines remaining unsold?
> 
> i would be interested in one
> 
> thanks


There were only enough parts to build a limited number....so I don't think so....unless he gets more parts he can turn into more Beta machines. I am sending a couple of machines back (Alpha 1 and Alpha 2), those will be decommissioned and may give some parts as one has only been on for perhaps a few hour and the other had a hard life during shipment. If it changes, I'll make sure you get first dibs.

The reason is that for production (assuming a successful beta) there would be a large orders for groups of parts, especially as some get specifically customised (e.g. Gicar firmware), panels etc.. Those go all into a fully costed production machine build and from that the Retail price is built. parts may also be slightly different depending on Beta feedback.


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## DavecUK

A small update on the status of Betas options and software fixes:

Please remember these are Beta machines, so may have differences and  Idiosyncrasies from production models. As always though I do have some news of things that are planned to happen for the Beta machines before you get them....the level of certainty will be indicated as a percentage.

1. Gicar are being asked to change the firmware to remove steam temperature display bug that is not actually usage affecting *(Completed)*

2. Gicar are being asked to extend Last shot protection to include disabling service boiler autofill as well, so it works the same as a Vesuvius *(Completed)*

3. Changes to the capillary tube for the brew pressure gauge to give a steadier needle, no guarantee it will be steadier. Yesterday my needle went from steady to quivering, I put it down to a too short capillary tube? may or may not stop the problem *(will be done, no guarantee it will solve problem)*

4. Minor additions to the accessory kit (*Agreed subject to cost control*)

5. Possibility of adding some extra factory price accessories to the machine for I had hoped perhaps an extra £10, but looking at costs it will probably be slightly more than £18 (80%)

In addition I am getting some wooden pieces to try (handles and knobs) I will photograph them....if there is time the factory will come up for a fitted price for those instead of standard components.

So good news and I have seen video evidence of the change 1 and 2. This means build should start in a day or so...but remember this will be first batch build, so they will be taking a little more time and accessories need to be obtained.


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## Hasi

Ace!

Can't wait









What about contents of the extra accessories kit? Wouldn't necessarily mind 18 quid if worthwhile...


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## Paolo_Cortese

Just a quick update, the machines will be shipped next week just under test and waiting for all necessary parts to complete the accessories. All the payment are made and i would like to thank you for prompt reaction. I hope to receive a feedback soon from everybody.

Thanks Again to partecipate.

Paolo


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## Hasi

Will there be some sorts of procedures we are required or requested to take? Any questionnaires or forms to be filled in?

Or simply get going as we are used to and report experiences and issues as they arise?


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## Paolo_Cortese

Hasi said:


> Will there be some sorts of procedures we are required or requested to take? Any questionnaires or forms to be filled in?
> 
> Or simply get going as we are used to and report experiences and issues as they arise?


Basically i need your user experience and of course how it perform.


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## Rob1

I was tempted to ask if the group pressure gauges could be thrown in for a price. Especially if there is a slight possibility of pressure profiling with a needle valve in the future. It's something I'll be looking into eventually.


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## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> I was tempted to ask if the group pressure gauges could be thrown in for a price. Especially if there is a slight possibility of pressure profiling with a needle valve in the future. It's something I'll be looking into eventually.


It was already in hand in terms of a kit of extras people could purchase e.g. Naked Portafilter Body + E61 Pressure Gauge. It's just getting a price out of ACS for this so that betas can buy them. I am also getting a set of walnut wood knobs and handles (but I don't know how quickly) to photo on the machine to see if it's worthwhile making it a factory fit option. Sadly these are much more expensive than I thought they would be (perhaps I am out of touch)....specifically the knobs. It also depends on time.


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## Hasi

@joey24dirt ex-factory option!!


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## Rakesh

DavecUK said:


> It was already in hand in terms of a kit of extras people could purchase e.g. Naked Portafilter Body + E61 Pressure Gauge. It's just getting a price out of ACS for this so that betas can buy them. I am also getting a set of walnut wood knobs and handles (but I don't know how quickly) to photo on the machine to see if it's worthwhile making it a factory fit option. Sadly these are much more expensive than I thought they would be (perhaps I am out of touch)....specifically the knobs. It also depends on time.


Is the machine not coming with a naked portafilter head as standard?


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## joey24dirt

Hasi said:


> @joey24dirt ex-factory option!!


Always willing


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## DavecUK

Rakesh said:


> Is the machine not coming with a naked portafilter head as standard?


No, it's in the Beta review, which people were urged to read and told that was how people should expect the Minima would come.


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## Rakesh

DavecUK said:


> No, it's in the review, which people were urged to read and told that was how the Minima would come.


Oops sorry, post 255 something on the old thread did say the machine was envisioned to come with a naked head but I hadn't realised what was in the review. I'd definitely be up for paying a little extra for more accessories.


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## DavecUK

OK some information on accessories *available at special prices as a thank you to Beta testers *and that can be popped in the box before delivery. You can choose all 3 or just the ones you want *all prices include VAT*


Orman E61 group pressure gauge (same as the optional one on Vesuvus, but remember it will sit slightly pointing to the left on the solenoid group) *12.50 euro*

Bottomless portafilter (body only as you will have handles) *12.50 euro*

Aluminum Tamper one piece with ACS Logo, 58mm flat base (nice) *16 euro*










The pressure gauge will come unfitted and it's a 5 minute job to undo the group hex screw, wrap 5-7 turns of PTFE tape around the gauge thread and screw it in.

My personal thoughts are it's all so cheap it makes sense and the tamper is a nice touch if you don't already have one on simply want to complete the branding. Your thoughts on this stuff when you get it will help shape the optional extra accessory pack for the Minima when it goes into production and it's final cost. *As before if you want this, list what you want on the thread and then simply drop me a pm with your e-mail and a list of items, then ACS can send an invoice.*

*
*

P.S. These items are only available to Beta testers.


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## Rakesh

I'll have the pressure gauge and naked pf head please.


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## ryan111

Ill do the same, pressure gauge and naked pf.


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## Hasi

In for the lot


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## Rakesh

In fact I'd like the tamper too please @DavecUK


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## DavecUK

Rakesh said:


> In fact I'd like the tamper too please @DavecUK


Smart move, always nice to have the branded tamper. Wish I had one..might buy one as part of next test delivery.


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## DavecUK

I suppose it sounds stupid but because I collect machines, I often like to have all the bits. really Niggles me that I don't have a Vesuvius bottomless portafilter...should flipping buy one of those as well.


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## Rob1

I'll take the pressure gauge and the portafilter (seems silly not to at that price).


----------



## moots

Yes please to all three. Thanks Dave!


----------



## DavecUK

Can u drop me a pm with email details.


----------



## Hasi

@Paolo_Cortese out of curiosity: how's the testing coming along? Would you wanna share some insight and/or images?

Thank you!


----------



## moots

DavecUK said:


> Can u drop me a pm with email details.


Will do, it'll be later today


----------



## DavecUK

moots said:


> Will do, it'll be later today


Actually not necessary, I still have the old e-mail, not deleted them yet. I normally delete everyone's details once I have passed them across. I will let ACS know and they will contact you....to collect the extra.


----------



## Rob1

I haven't been contacted yet for the additional items...has anyone else?


----------



## Rakesh

Rob1 said:


> I haven't been contacted yet for the additional items...has anyone else?


I haven't either.


----------



## Hasi

Rakesh said:


> I haven't either.


+1

But hey, it's weekend in Italy. Pretty sure Paolo will get in touch with us by tomorrow morning


----------



## Rob1

Good to hear, thought I might have missed the boat.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese

Sorry if i'm not answering to someone, i'm just over busy. About the accessories due of the delay i'll put in the box free of charge, i hope that no one will be upset.........


----------



## Hasi

This is very kind!

Thank you @Paolo_Cortese


----------



## Rakesh

Thank you! @Paolo_Cortese


----------



## moots

Wow, thank you @Paolo_Cortese!


----------



## Jony

That is what you call service.


----------



## Rob1

Thank you, that's very kind and generous.


----------



## joey24dirt

Have you guys received the machines yet or are they still being built? Looking forward to seeing them in use


----------



## Rakesh

joey24dirt said:


> Have you guys received the machines yet or are they still being built? Looking forward to seeing them in use


Machines haven't been sent out yet, I think they are going to be shipped some time this week.


----------



## joey24dirt

Rakesh said:


> Machines haven't been sent out yet, I think they are going to be shipped some time this week.


Exciting times. It's definitely grown on me following the other thread, I just didn't have the funds


----------



## Rakesh

joey24dirt said:


> Exciting times. It's definitely grown on me following the other thread, I just didn't have the funds


I can see how the looks might be a bit of an 'acquired taste' for some but to me it looks really excellent. I can't wait to receive it and finally be making spro at home again after being without a machine for a couple months now.


----------



## Hasi

joey24dirt said:


> Exciting times. It's definitely grown on me following the other thread, I just didn't have the funds


But you've got yourself some plumbed in greatness - that you've put back on its feet with your own hands!


----------



## joey24dirt

Hasi said:


> But you've got yourself some plumbed in greatness - that you've put back on its feet with your own hands!


That's true


----------



## ryan111

Has anyone heard anything about a possible shipping date?


----------



## Rob1

Not yet, maybe next week. I'm in no rush tbh, though will be happy to replace the brewtus when it gets here.


----------



## Rakesh

Rob1 said:


> Not yet, maybe next week. I'm in no rush tbh, though will be happy to replace the brewtus when it gets here.


I've been told they were due to be shipped this week, but I'm in no rush either.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese

Within the end of next week everybody will receive his machine.


----------



## ryan111

Paolo_Cortese said:


> Within the end of next week everybody will receive his machine.


Sounds great, thanks


----------



## Paolo_Cortese

Pics

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wiy9m2dgkvbrx30/2018-09-21%2010.49.54.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/g2owzpst2luvras/2018-09-21%2010.49.41.jpg?dl=0


----------



## Hasi

Awesome!

...how I would wish to be there now


----------



## DavecUK

There is a *possibility* that a 6th machine can be built, wioth the same offer as all the other 5 people have already got. Please post if you are interested *if* a 6th one can be made available.


----------



## Geoff Tucker

I could be interested. Will the 6th one also come with the extra accessories? Would I be supplied with a VAT invoice?


----------



## Geoff Tucker

If the answer to both questions is yes, and it's available, then I will take it if that's ok?

I'll just have to wait for the Niche to arrive before I can use it!


----------



## GeoffTucks

Just realised I was logged in on a different account I didn't know I had.

Having looked into it, it doesn't look like I can claim the VAT back on it. However I'd still have it if it's available.


----------



## DavecUK

You won't have an invoice that will allow you to claim VAT back. As you would still be interested, if one comes available, I will let you know. I don't think the extra accessories will be free though, that was just because others were waiting longer than expected. If however, the accessories not being free is a deal breaker for you, let me know....so someone else can have a chance.


----------



## GeoffTucks

It's not the end of the world, but would have been nice to have the extras. I would want the naked portafilter anyway.


----------



## Jony

Great buy even without the VAT.


----------



## GeoffTucks

Seems like a lot of machine for the money. I was going upgrade my sage BE once the niche arrives anyway, and I like the sound of the simplicity of the minima.


----------



## DavecUK

Remember I only said a possibility, they need to check all the parts.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese

Hi to everyone, machines waiting for DHL.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4r6ll4q4zqzlf87/2018-09-28%2013.09.19.jpg?dl=0

Paolo


----------



## GeoffTucks

Is there any news on the possible 6th machine?


----------



## DavecUK

I think it not going to happen, will update if more news


----------



## GeoffTucks

Oh no. That's a shame.

If it were to happen I would definitely be up for it. Really fancy a dual boiler and not sure what else to look at.


----------



## Jony

Well maybe the Vesuvius in the for sale? pricey though haha


----------



## DavecUK

Jony said:


> Well maybe the Vesuvius in the for sale? pricey though haha


That one sold in like 3 minutes....unless you mean the other one that's slightly used and probably a bargain. If there are any more Beta Minimas, I will update, the problem is the parts. As the betas are for feedback, it will probably change the next parts order, so Betas were built from existing Minima parts stock for development machines. Key parts of that have run out and new parts will be ordered subject to any Beta changes.

As they will be going Retail, if a UK Retailer does actively take them on and is selling them, the factory can't really sell direct or do special deals. Plus the Beta price really is a bit of a give-away price.


----------



## Jony

No Mattbats one


----------



## ryan111

I got an email from DHL Italy on Friday, I assume it was the machine being sent but the email looks incomplete and doesn't have any tracking details and the links in it don't work. Did anyone else have that problem?


----------



## Hasi

ryan111 said:


> I got an email from DHL Italy on Friday, I assume it was the machine being sent but the email looks incomplete and doesn't have any tracking details and the links in it don't work. Did anyone else have that problem?


Yep, same here. But I wouldn't worry, let's just see what happens this week


----------



## Hasi

Just got another mail, saying they're awaiting the next available movement. My machine appears to be in a Milano DHL warehouse


----------



## Rakesh

Mine is scheduled to be delivered tomorrow, anyone else?


----------



## Rob1

My tracking info worked from the start and has always been due this Tuesday. It's in Milan at the moment would expect it to arrive in Manchester by the end of the day.


----------



## Rakesh

Anyone got their machine yet? My delivery is scheduled for today but tracking info hasn't updated since 7am at which it 'departed from Milan' looking forward to receiving it massively.


----------



## ryan111

Rakesh said:


> Anyone got their machine yet? My delivery is scheduled for today but tracking info hasn't updated since 7am at which it 'departed from Milan' looking forward to receiving it massively.


Mine is scheduled for tomorrow, says it has passed through Belgium last night


----------



## Hasi

haha oh the excitement!!


----------



## Rakesh

Just got off the phone with DHL who told me that the plane my machines was originally supposed to be on was overloaded, so the machine is on a plane to the UK now as we speak and will be out for delivery tomorrow rather than today as scheduled. Kind of annoying as I took a day off work so i'd be in to receive it today and i'm in work tomorrow so its likely ill miss it... but hey ho.


----------



## Rob1

Good news: my minima arrived.

Bad news: it's damaged.

It was on a pallet and covered in plastic yet somehow the box was soaking wet.

Two of the feet are bent and the insulation surrounding the boilers is soaked. I've had a go at removing it but can't without removing the water tank mounting as it's all packed in so tight. Any tips on the angle of attack to get the tank out of the way so I can get everything dry?

I'm really hoping dhl didn't take it off the pallet and toss it around to make things easier for them but don't know how else to explain the bent feet. If its been placed on its side the water could have come out of the steam wand if the service boiler wasn't drained.

@DavecUK @Paolo_Cortese

If I attack from the service boiler side with a screwdriver will I be able to remove the metal water tank thing?


----------



## Hasi

Oh double noes...


----------



## Rakesh

Sounds really odd that the box was so wet and the machine inside got so wet, could you see from the outside of the box that it had sustained some damage?


----------



## DavecUK

Machine should be shipped without feet attached? Water tank carrier can be removed. Can you email ACS with a few photos an details so the can assist you.


----------



## Rakesh

@DavecUK if other machines arrive with visible damage to the box would the best course of action be to refuse to accept the parcel?


----------



## DavecUK

I don't really know, the box is really sturdy, it's on a pallet so it should be kept right way up and should ship without feet attached. I think you have to make a judgement yourself, or open and check before signing if it looks damaged.

The box was completely changed from ones used on Alpha that got damaged. My beta arrived fine in same packaging. I hope they don't arrive damaged because that's all there are (5 beta units). ACS can't send another.


----------



## Rob1

There was no damage to the box that suggested it had been dropped and the polystyrene inside wasn't broken. There were holes in the poly where the feet had gone through but they looked cut out. It was just wet and it wasn't obvious until it was taken off the pallet as it was covered in plastic until then.

I'll post a couple of pictures later and email ACS. I've tried to remove the tank carrier by going for some screws on the bottom but they're bigger than the ones for the rest of the case and smaller than the next key size up.


----------



## Hasi

Odd, very curious to see your images!



Rob1 said:


> I've tried to remove the tank carrier by going for some screws on the bottom but they're bigger than the ones for the rest of the case and smaller than the next key size up.


Supposedly Torx not Allen.


----------



## Rob1

I used an Allen key for the case.

There doesn't appear to be any damage to the case at all. There was a bead of water on the tip of the steam wand suggesting that could be the source of the leak.


----------



## Rakesh

Rob1 said:


> I used an Allen key for the case.
> 
> There doesn't appear to be any damage to the case at all. There was a bead of water on the tip of the steam wand suggesting that could be the source of the leak.


Did the machine come with the feet attached?


----------



## Rob1

Yep


----------



## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> Yep


That's fecking annoying! The water tank holder comes off via 2 or 3 8mm nuts on the bottom, not via the position head screws. I will post photo tomorrow.


----------



## DavecUK

I shot one quickly, the 2 nuts are marked with a green arrow as mine was an early beta it may have 1 less securing nut, yours might or might not have one in the position of the 3rd arrow in one of the 2 holes close by. Undo them and then the tank carrier can be jiggled away gently, because there are wires attached to a micro-switch. You really don't need to remove the insulation, as long as the bottom and top electrical connections are dry, switch both boilers on and it will dry out in 30 minutes.









I really recommend not removing the tank carrier if you don't need to.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese

If someone receive the machine with packaging damaged accept the parcel with reserve, there is an insurance that will pay for that. If you refuse the problem will be bigger. Always accept with note of damage. @Rob please send me the photo as soon as possible. The feet must be off in the box and I need photos please. Everyone have my email. Thanks.


----------



## Rob1

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0sgevdxbfk4vfw2/AAAE0Apmux2hiO_ik4XxO-vFa?dl=0

I can't upload images to the forum for some reason so there you go. Not particularly exciting.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese

Yes the same problem to upload for me that's why I link Dropbox in any case I received them by email. Thanks


----------



## Rob1

I've stuck it in front of a dehumidifier on top of a towel for now. I'll probably tip it on its back in the morning.

First impressions:

It looks stunning. Much better than in the pictures. Despite being bigger than the Expobar (1cm wider) it actually looks smaller because of the way the front angles off. The height of the group makes it appear more open too and there's a huge space on the steam wand side to work with. I'm a fan of the design after being a little apprehensive to begin with. The one thing I'd say (aside from the obvious thing regarding feet in my case) is that you might even get away with having shorter feet to bring it down another cm. It does have quite shapely feet though. I'm going to stop talking about feet now.

The cup warmer tray is well thought out being removable by itself. To get the Expobar's off you have to also remove the back and reservoir carrier making descaling or draining the brew group much harder than it needs to be. It's (the machine) also significantly lighter making handling of it much easier.

I've been advised not to turn it on yet and I'm waiting to hear back tomorrow for more advice. I'm hoping to get it dried out asap.


----------



## Hasi

Mine's mooching about a nearby delivery facility, as per tracking info. Let's hope they don't kick it around too much...


----------



## Hasi

PS: in delivery vehicle. 

Instantaneous instincts induced instructions in Mrs. Hasi: open and have a look before signing pleeeeaaaase nudge nudge say no more know what I mean?!

(he asked her knowingly...)


----------



## ryan111

Mine has also just arrived. Unfortunately there is also damage. Although not so much to the outside packaging, but it looks like something very heavy has been on top of it ad the middle has been pushed down, effectively bending the base of the machine, one of the legs is in the air when the machine is sitting on a flat surface. I will post some photos shortly.


----------



## Hasi

Once we start using the units, should we move to a new thread to exchange views and experiences?

Should it be publicly available?


----------



## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> Once we start using the units, should we move to a new thread to exchange views and experiences?
> 
> Should it be publicly available?


I see no reason to keep things private, too many companies do that, as long is people are aware these are betas and subject to improvement. Views are views and if a machine is to be successful, it won't be by "tricking" customers. Equally be circumspect when posting bearing in mind your knowledge of a thing may be limited and it might pay to ask for more information when not absolutely sure. Other things might already be in the works for change, or your view may add something to any changes planned.

At the moment it is such a shame to see such unnecessary damage happening..all because someone at the factory left the feet on! The packaging is specifically designed to give the highest chance of shipping without damage when the feet are off. As the machine rests entirely on the flat stainless steel base and is well protected from quite brutal treatment by couriers. The sort of damage you are seeing is when they are dropped 6 or 7 feet of an aircraft, or perhaps have a ton of things on top of them....because those boxes can almost take a person standing on them!


----------



## DavecUK

ryan111 said:


> Mine has also just arrived. Unfortunately there is also damage. Although not so much to the outside packaging, but it looks like something very heavy has been on top of it ad the middle has been pushed down, effectively bending the base of the machine, one of the legs is in the air when the machine is sitting on a flat surface. I will post some photos shortly.


You must e-mail good quality photos to Paolo so he can see exactly how much damage there is....and decide the best course of action.


----------



## ryan111

DavecUK said:


> You must e-mail good quality photos to Paolo so he can see exactly how much damage there is....and decide the best course of action.


I will put together all the photos after work tonight, I took them of the box as it came as well just in case (which looked ok) . On closer inspection, I would say it does look like it is because the feet were left on


----------



## Rob1

I've added some more pictures to the gallery. The insulation is just damp now so that's progress. All new files are suggestively named. At some point I'll start talking about its massive wand.


----------



## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> I've added some more pictures to the gallery. The insulation is just damp now so that's progress. All new files are suggestively named. At some point I'll start talking about its massive wand.


I love the steaming power and the wand......pretty much the best prosumer machine I have used for steaming


----------



## Rakesh

Mine has apparently been delayed again.... out for delivery tomorrow now.


----------



## Hasi

same here...

Mrs. Hasi couldn't lift it out of the box, signed because it wasn't visible from above.


----------



## Rakesh

How frustrating... I guess I know what to expect tomorrow then..


----------



## DavecUK

Sadly every machine has shipped with the feet on, so it's not good news, unless the couriers have been careful. All because 1 person didn't do what they were told! What a waste....


----------



## Hasi

Rakesh said:


> How frustrating... I guess I know what to expect tomorrow then..





















Adjusting the feet, mate. Adjusting the feet 

As for the kink in the base, I'd need to put on a few kilos (especially on my forearms  popeye style), could straighten only by 2mm. Say hello to Tim Allen when you see him!

edit: But it looks much better now - no visible damage to the untrained eye really


----------



## DavecUK

For the base of the very sick Alpha machine I had, I used a special (but very old) car bodywork tool, it's a big screw handle and wide flat jaws you can clamp on and flatten stuff. The trouble is the steel is hard, as you have found and I could only do so much with it. That said, you have done a really nice job with it....looks fine. As long as the outer cover goes on easy and the drip tray slides nice...you're golden.

Thank goodness there is one hopefully properly working machine for testing.


----------



## Hasi

Cheers!

Yea, cover slides on smoothly now 

Just used a handful of vices and some wood.

First thing I noticed: drip tray is a bit too short - it has play, going forth and back some 5mm or so. If pushed all the way back, anything dropping through the front openings of the tray cover wouldn't necessarily get caught by tray:


----------



## DavecUK

I can confirm mine is the same....looks like for production the drip tray lasercut should be further from the front edge....about 5 mm.


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> I can confirm mine is the same....looks like for production the drip tray lasercut should be further from the front edge....about 5 mm.


That or adjusting the tray size. By the looks of it, mould making is not finalised yet, is it?


----------



## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> That or adjusting the tray size. By the looks of it, mould making is not finalised yet, is it?


Not sure, depends on which is easiest I guess.


----------



## ryan111

So, from what I can see from the outside the frame got the brunt of the damage. The main base piece and side pieces along with the tray are all damaged in some way with the majority of the damage to the base piece of the frame

See the pics on dropbox below

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/z3g17ygca03ucv3/AAByXOeuP3zfr6Ppf6iMtmAWa?dl=0


----------



## Rob1

What a disaster. Mine looks good compared to these. I've been asked to return mine, I suspect due to concerns about water damage.


----------



## El carajillo

I feel very sorry for the disappointment members must feel when receiving a damaged machine after all the anticipation generated.

I can appreciate that removing the feet /legs would permit the machine to sit flat and provide more protection but it seems to me the largest portion of blame lies with the carriers for careless / negligent handling of goods in their care.


----------



## Hasi

Or users...










No brew pressure for me today.

Did I wish for popeye forearms? Now they seem to have come true. 

Packaging wise it may be beneficial to reinforce the lateral edges by adding cardboard corners or small timber beams. So any weight from above will be taken straight to the bottom rather than sitting on top of the machine.


----------



## Hasi

Quickly inserted a PF and noticed front of base would flex slightly under applied force, lifting front left foot off the worktop.

I'm left-handed; dunno whether this makes a difference, just sayin'. Also, maybe I didn't need to push that much. Machine was cold, as was the brew head gasket.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese

In any case not considering what happening, I would like to suggest how to open a card box of every machine. First of all open the top side and remove all the parts and accessories that you can find, than put the machine on one side and open the bottom part of the cart box after that you have to turn the 4 strips leaving the bottom of the machine free, than turn the machine up and pull up the cart box. This is how an unpacking should be. About the damaged machine tomorrow I'll inform everyone how I'll handle the sostitution.


----------



## Stanic

Incredible, they must have been tossing those boxes around


----------



## Jony

I can't believe these pictures pretty shocking.


----------



## Hasi

Good thing is, we're essentially looking at a shipping test. There's a few points that can be taken from it for future QA topics such as packing or packaging design itself. 

Stupid thing is the frustration mostly Paolo is dealing with. That goes hand in hand with added financial/insurance topics which also delay the process...


----------



## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> Good thing is, we're essentially looking at a shipping test. There's a few points that can be taken from it for future QA topics such as packing or packaging design itself.
> 
> Stupid thing is the frustration mostly Paolo is dealing with. That goes hand in hand with added financial/insurance topics which also delay the process...


No we are looking at shipping with the feet on, they packaging is designed for the machine to ship with the feet off. this is because it is known that with things like this they can often be dropped from up to 6 feet as they are kicked off the back of a truck, or out of an aircraft loading hatch! This way the flat bottom of the machine is on the packaging and has much greater strength than the feet, plus each boiler has 3 stainless stand-offs supporting it, plus additional brackets, to prevent movement inside.

The real problem for ACS is the cost of this...huge cost very little back from the courier company and disappointed beta testers..


----------



## Rakesh

My machine is wet but not damaged. Why is it wet?


----------



## DavecUK

Rakesh said:


> My machine is wet but not damaged. Why is it wet?


Well you have the first undamaged one. I figured around 70%+ would get damaged









*It depends how wet it is*

Is the outside of the box wet

Did they leave it on it's side and a little came from the steam boiler

Did a worker leave some water in the plastic tank by mistake (this has happened to me when receiving test machines from manufacturers)

If it's not soaked inside, it should be fine, If it is quite wet inside, take the top off and leave it for a few hours, then it should be fine to power on. If you are on an RCD and it's wet, even if it trips something it's doubtful any damage will be done.


----------



## moots

My machine should arrive today  condition? We'll see?


----------



## ryan111

Rakesh said:


> My machine is wet but not damaged. Why is it wet?


Mine was also a little wet inside the packaging, but not too much. I used a hairdryer to help the drying along before switching it on and letting its own heat do the rest.


----------



## Rakesh

The box it came in was soaking wet, but the machine itself more looks like it has condensation on its surface and on the outside. I just want to be sure it means there are no leaks?


----------



## Rakesh

It also came not on a pallet?


----------



## DavecUK

Rakesh said:


> It also came not on a pallet?


Was there any water in the plastic tank at all?


----------



## Rob1

There's only one way to be sure there aren't any leaks...

So DHL took it off the pallet? Interesting. I don't see how they can avoid paying out for the damage, they can't have handled them properly. Surely when things are shipped on pallets there are certain handling policies assured such as only using forklifts and trolleys to move them. The strapping on mine was loose so I wouldn't be surprised if they took them off the pallets and chucked them about to process them before putting them back on for delivery.


----------



## Rakesh

DavecUK said:


> Was there any water in the plastic tank at all?


Yes a small amount I can see now


----------



## Rakesh

So, my machine hasn't inflicted any physical damage to the outside besides from the cup warmer surround that was a little wonky and easily fixed. I thought it wasn't turning on but realised the adapter I had just wasn't capable enough. I have a power lead that fit into the machine with a Uk plug so have used that and the machine has booted and heated up no problem.


----------



## DavecUK

Rakesh said:


> So, my machine hasn't inflicted any physical damage to the outside besides from the cup warmer surround that was a little wonky and easily fixed. I thought it wasn't turning on but realised the adapter I had just wasn't capable enough. I have a power lead that fit into the machine with a Uk plug so have used that and the machine has booted and heated up no problem.


Thank god 1 out of 4 so far. Make sure both boilers are on and cook for a few hours at gas mark 3 to ensure it's nice and dry inside...


----------



## Rakesh

DavecUK said:


> Thank god 1 out of 4 so far. Make sure both boilers are on and cook for a few hours at gas mark 3 to ensure it's nice and dry inside...


Cool, I'll let it stay on for a couple hours


----------



## DavecUK

Rakesh said:


> Cool, I'll let it stay on for a couple hours


And of course flush it out a bit as per the instructions I wrote and make yerself some coffee...or did they get wet as well?


----------



## Hasi

See, mine was dry - just gave the water reservoir a good clean as it smelled a bit funny.

Going to fire her up tonight as well 

One remark about that: it appears to be very little space for the silicone hoses to duck away when pulling out the tank - a potential weak spot if users remove the tank often, I suspect.


----------



## DavecUK

Squeeze tank slightly when removing at the pinch points


----------



## Hasi

Did just that









Will reservoir stay that way in production machines?


----------



## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> Did just that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will reservoir stay that way in production machines?


Yes, because it's cheap as chips as it's an existing thing (not custom) and if anyone ever needs a replacement, it's also cheap, plus it holds a lot of water for it's size.


----------



## Rakesh

Few pics of the minima in its new home. I feel as though it's the perfect size for a machine in my home. I've pulled a few shots of square miles red brick blend just to get to grips with and after a touch of dialling in, it does taste very good, needs a bit more dialling in though. Also made a cappuccino for my mother.









My machine did have a problem. It would screech very loud when it reached full pressure. However, after getting in contact with Paolo he replied very quickly and explained the opv may need tweaking. So I tweaked the pressure down to just under 8 bar with a blind filter (predicting it will be just above 8 bar with coffee) and the sound has gone. However this did require fine tuning, if I turned the pressure down too low the noise would return, too high and the noise would return. The pressure I'm at now seems to be the sweet spot. The sound has gone when turning on with a blind filter so I'm 99% sure it will be gone when pulling a shot, but will have to wait until tomorrow to be sure.

The machine itself looks stunning, pics do not do it justice.


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> Yes, because it's cheap as chips as it's an existing thing (not custom) and if anyone ever needs a replacement, it's also cheap, plus it holds a lot of water for it's size.


Sure thing!

Like the approach, needs getting used to as it's a rather unusual sight (Mrs. Hasi was like: what's that in there?)


----------



## Hasi

Read the manual, did the commissioning, fired her up.

Took me a while to stop mistaking the displayed dots for decimal separators  now got it figured out: it stands for temperature 1 and 2.

Heating time!

But wait. Boiler pressure would go through the roof - at 118C it was up 2.4bar, so I switched off the service boiler element.

Flushed through water outlet and had the bouler refill. Switched service boiler back on and saw the same thing happen. Now I reduced T2 to 110C. When it reached the temperature after the next flush, boiler pressure showed 1.4bar.

Flushed again two more times, now boiler pressure stayed well under 1bar. So upon slowly raising T2 I ended up with 125C @1.5bar.

fresh and filtered water was always cold and didn't stay long in the reservoir.

Anyhow, it looks like it cleared itself up.

Next test: blind filter.

It reaches 9.5bar, slightly rattling gauge and a little screeching sound from inside the machine - like @Rakesh reported earlier.

Adjusted OPV until it was gone, put everything back together now it is there again. Deffo comes from somewhere near pressure gauge, isn't that also where OPV hose connects?

Needs more tweaking apparently 

Oh:










Now there is a leak.

The water source was quickly found:



















This honestly awkward looking hose sprays excess water from the 3-way valve above through various slices randomly everywhere behind the chute. "Everywhere" includes "into the opening" and "into the machine" - from where it would seep through underneath drip tray and onto worktop.

What happens if the hose would simply go straight downwards with an open end?


----------



## Rakesh

Hasi said:


> Read the manual, did the commissioning, fired her up.
> 
> Took me a while to stop mistaking the displayed dots for decimal separators  now got it figured out: it stands for temperature 1 and 2.
> 
> Heating time!
> 
> But wait. Boiler pressure would go through the roof - at 118C it was up 2.4bar, so I switched off the service boiler element.
> 
> Flushed through water outlet and had the bouler refill. Switched service boiler back on and saw the same thing happen. Now I reduced T2 to 110C. When it reached the temperature after the next flush, boiler pressure showed 1.4bar.
> 
> Flushed again two more times, now boiler pressure stayed well under 1bar. So upon slowly raising T2 I ended up with 125C @1.5bar.
> 
> fresh and filtered water was always cold and didn't stay long in the reservoir.
> 
> Anyhow, it looks like it cleared itself up.
> 
> Next test: blind filter.
> 
> It reaches 9.5bar, slightly rattling gauge and a little screeching sound from inside the machine - like @Rakesh reported earlier.
> 
> Adjusted OPV until it was gone, put everything back together now it is there again. Deffo comes from somewhere near pressure gauge, isn't that also where OPV hose connects?
> 
> Needs more tweaking apparently
> 
> Oh:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now there is a leak.
> 
> The water source was quickly found:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This honestly awkward looking hose sprays excess water from the 3-way valve above through various slices randomly everywhere behind the chute. "Everywhere" includes "into the opening" and "into the machine" - from where it would seep through underneath drip tray and onto worktop.
> 
> What happens if the hose would simply go straight downwards with an open end?


 @Hasi I had the exact same 'leak'. Water dripping from the back but it only happened once or twice and after that never again so paid no notice as I assumed it was just residual water from the soggy box. Nice to know it's only the 3-way valve and not a real leak.

With regards to the screeching sound I found it easier to just keep the top of the machine off, keep a blind filter locked in and then unplug the machine adjust opv, plug machine back in and turn pump on, screeching still there, unplug machine, adjust opv... it does require a bit of fine tuning, took me about 5 or 6 adjustments to get it right. I found the screeching to disappear when the gauge showed just below 8 bar with a blind filter.


----------



## Hasi

Rakesh said:


> With regards to the screeching sound I found it easier to just keep the top of the machine off, keep a blind filter locked in and then unplug the machine adjust opv, plug machine back in and turn pump on, screeching still there, unplug machine, adjust opv... it does require a bit of fine tuning, took me about 5 or 6 adjustments to get it right. I found the screeching to disappear when the gauge showed just below 8 bar with a blind filter.


I did it almost the same way, only might have tuned it too closely to the screeching point so it juuust started again - will have another go at it tomorrow. After pulling my first shots that is.

And yes, somewhere around the 8bar mark. Although I've used the silicone insert, not the actual blind filter (both shipped with my Minima). And the needle dances a bit when under full load, so no precise reading.


----------



## Rob1

The OPV in my expobar made the screeching sound too but it just stopped one day, I thought it was just breaking in.


----------



## Rakesh

Tried a shot this morning and the screeching is still there.


----------



## DavecUK

Just a quick post after reading various comments:

The vent tube I didn't test it was a change made at ACS to reduce splashing on the drip tray, It used to just be a tube to just above the tray. Paolo said if he blocked the end and put holes in the side it didn't splash. Obviously this isn't working by the look of things. I put my much shorter tube into a hole in a small block of kitchen sponge and that seems to work for now. I did try a longer tube into the drip tray and it simply shot dirty coffee water back at me, depending on how full the tray is. I think on final production models, the solution should be a cut out area under the spout. The sponge was a temporary test, because it's all I had to hand, but I do intend to change to a more open mesh that dries out fast. Obviously I would just cut a small piece of of one....the only reason I have not got one yet, is I keep forgetting when we are at the supermarket.










The expansion valves....personally I would let them screech for a bit, they will probably settle down. My suspicion is it's caused by small air bubbles in the system when the machines are new and will soon settle down. The expansion valves probably have a resonance characteristic that causes noise when their are tiny bubbles. I got a bit of air into mine recently, it screeched for a few shots and then was fine. I don't know for sure, but I do know these valves are used in lots of different machines by other manufacturers and there isn't a known problem. If the screeching doesn't go away after a while, or they are too hard to adjust ACS may look at a different valve, but space is limited!


----------



## DavecUK

I I should have said, for now, cut the sealed end off the tube, or remove the tie if you can.


----------



## Hasi

Came to think of a simple and cheap fix:



















6x4 silicone tube and a small water filter (had that lying around) - it's really tiny, with an inner connector diameter of 1mm or so. It acts as a nozzle (limiting flow) and shower screen (distributing water).

It works pretty well, especially without drip tray grille. only where water hits triangular cutouts of the grille, it goes sideways.

I'll try with shorter tube to increase spray area lateron.


----------



## Hasi

...shorter works even better!

Ultimately maybe a bigger hole underneath the chute to avoid horizontal spray?


----------



## Hasi

(Tapatalk double post)


----------



## Hasi

Fourth try was in the ballpark, at least visually. The three before required extensive cleaning and were utter disasters in general 

Taste-wise she seems a bit more forgiving than my Rocket regarding the allowed bandwidth of wrongness in grinder settings.

Would that have something to do with slower ramp rate?

I've dialled in my Mazzer Mini starting at the latest Rocket settings for the used roast. That was way off, apparently. Tomorrow I shall be getting there...


----------



## DavecUK

It's a super forgiving machine with a nice slow steady pressure ramp

It produces a really good shot for some reason. My guess would be because temp and pressure is good.


----------



## Rob1

I've removed the tank carrier (minor ball ache), suited up the service boiler again and repositioned the tank carrier (absolute ball ache). I actually gave up trying to get the last screw in and just settled for two. There's a wire going underneath something (not sure what it is but looked temperature and pressure related. I'm tired and the only thing I was paying attention to was that it was in my way)

and the carrier seems destined to slot under that and the wire but I couldn't get it back under the wire so it's about 2mm out of the screw hole. I'm fairly certain it will be inconsequential.

Can someone please confirm the way the power socket is supposed to be wired? I've gone for earth bottom, black right, white left (from inside) though obviously haven't turned it on yet since I'm not too sure it's right.


----------



## moots

Nice work Rob.



Rob1 said:


> Can someone please confirm the way the power socket is supposed to be wired? I've gone for earth bottom, black right, white left (from inside) though obviously haven't turned it on yet since I'm not too sure it's right.


One for @DavecUK or @Paolo_Cortese I guess?


----------



## DavecUK

On the UK one it's earth bottom, blue right and white left as viewed from the rear. in the photo you can sear the back of the socket, the rear cover having just been removed and laid down. There is not black wire, unless your wiring system is different and you don't use blue for neutral as we do?

Anyway the neutral wire should always be to the left of the earth pin.


----------



## Rob1

Thanks. I think there's a black sheath over the wire, under that it's probably blue.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese

It's very simple, the yellow/green is obviously the earth and wits be connected to the bottom side (also you can see that the bottom is on the metal part of the filter. The other two cable could be assembled as you want it doesn't matter left or right due of no polarity of AC voltage.

I would also mention, as already know Dave, that the expansion valve will be different and who has the machine (not replace due of shipping damage) will receive a new one to change on the machine. Also the solenoid group will be equipped with a right system to avoid any splash and of course everyone will have.


----------



## moots

Hello @Paolo_Cortese.

Thank you (and @DavecUK 's) support so far, the posts from the other beta testers have been a great help too.

Here is some feedback on my Minima's set up.

Unfortunately I am not with the machine due to travel, but my father is kindly helping out









1. It's a beautiful machine!

2. The instructions you gave for how to unpack the machine from the box properly were very useful.

3. On my machine also, the feet were attached to the machine during shipping.

One foot was bent, we used the same method for straightening using a clamp as shown by @Hasi (thanks for the pics!)

4. The plastic bag was a bit wet, but machine wasn't soaked.

5. The label with voltage was on the bottom of machine, not the side as per user manual.

6. The EU plug needed swapping out for a UK one. The machine didn't work through a 1 amp EU shaver adaptor







(whoops)

7. The Polystyrene packing seemed a bit flimsy and didn't offer huge protection.

Perhaps a little crate would be good for protection, or more solid polystyrene.

Note that my machine did arrive on a pallet.

8. The machine powers up fine, the temperature reading for two boilers is stable.

9. The user manual didn't go into the process of pulling a shot; I think this is expected for such a machine, but the person unpacking it has pulled maybe 20 shots six months ago, and this is their very first espresso machine (this is an unusual scenario perhaps?)

10. The accessories look and feel great quality.

11. The top cover fits beautifully flush only when installed the correct way. Unless the user has OCD, they might not notice they've not installed it properly









I hope that's useful.

Hopefully there is more to come once I manage to convince my father to buy some beans, grind some coffee and make a shot!

M


----------



## Hasi

@moots: very comprehensive summary 

Pretty much sums up my first impressions as well. Thank you!

In the meantime, I was able to produce a godly shot (18 for 35 in 40sec, Washed Typica, La Berlina Estate, Panama - last week's batch) after moving it to a dedicated space in the workshop aka. roast cave. 










Just so nobody wonders: no other activities in this area until I can move everything to my little roastery.

Back to the machine, though.

Technically it appears spot on, it heats up brew boiler so damn quickly and idles at 93-94C with great stability. Doesn't take long until brew group get to temp as a result - even in my basement (~18C). Usually now, I handle it like every other machine I use and don't stress about pulling the first shot (within 30mins of warm up).

Pump is very quiet with a nice sonorous sound, really like that! Nothing rattles, so apart from the little screech when max pressure is reached (which we heard is going to be addressed by ACS, thanks guys!) it's an overall pleasure just listening to it.

Few more remarks I collected from using the Minima for a couple days now:

- would be great to have a drip tray cover that locks in its end position as it slides out very quickly. Could be done by a little interlocking recess or silicone cushion where you squeeze it in (similar to what Rocket have in their trays). Both cheap and simple options...?

- being left-handed as well as being used to actuate a lever on right-hand side of brew group, I catch myself reaching over brew group with my right to switch the pump. I know space is tight, but maybe moving pump switch further up makes it more accessible?

- cleaning the case with a micro fibre cloth revealed some rather sharp edges, especially at the laser start-/endpoints on cup tray railings. Dunno whether it's curable or will be different or if it's even worth a second thought 

Lastly, my 3-way valve outlet works really well, still 

Have a great Sunday folks!

Catch you soon


----------



## Rob1

Quick update.

I bent the foot back into shape.

It looked like it was sitting evenly on all feet. I took a picture of the group sagging forward (with the back removed) with the intention of illustrating that the back actually pulls it up allowing the drip tray to slide underneath. Unfortunately after finally getting the cover back on I found out the left front foot is just floating in the air. The case has obviously pulled and bent other parts of the frame so I'm a little puzzled about my next move right now. I might have a go at the back cover just to see if it's bend out of shape a bit.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qv06mtmj7jjmh3f/_20181007_165920.JPG?dl=0


----------



## moots

Hasi said:


> after moving it to a dedicated space in the workshop aka. roast cave.


Nice write up, and a sweet setup you have there Hasi . I'm well jel!


----------



## Rakesh

So I got the group pressure gauge on no problem, only required about 4 wraps of ptfe and a finger tight screw-in and it is working perfect.

One suggestion I have is to potentially cover up the other end of the screw on the metal water tank cover. I clumsily placed it on, sliding it on the top of the cup warmer by accident and it easily scratched the cup warmer as seen in the pic. A little rubber cover to go over it would probably work fine. I may just stick a bit of bluetac over it.









With regards to the actual coffee, I've found the minima to give a lovely gentle extraction. The super slow ramp up to full pressure and running the pump at 8 bar let's me grind a fair bit finer and run longer, sweeter shots without running into any astringency. Even my first shot was something like 55s and although over extracted it wasn't as dry or bitter as I anticipated at all.


----------



## DavecUK

Me I'm saying nuthin...except never become a tester or reviewer as you're expected to return machines in new, or better than new condition







Believe it or not, people used to ask to buy the ex review machines and pay new money for them because apparently they "knew it would work well and had been looked over by an expert", lol, those were the days. Scratching a machine (especially if it wasn't mine) was always my worst night mare.


----------



## Rakesh

DavecUK said:


> Me I'm saying nuthin...except never become a tester or reviewer as you're expected to return machines in new, or better than new condition  Believe it or not, people used to ask to buy the ex review machines and pay new money for them because apparently they "knew it would work well and had been looked over by an expert", lol, those were the days. Scratching a machine (especially if it wasn't mine) was always my worst night mare.


To be honest I was heartbroken at the sight of it . I am usually so careful and keep my gear pristine for a while. Luckily it's only feint and noticeable at certain angles. I may cut up some more of that car boot liner I have for the drip tray step for the cup warmer to prevent any further accidents.


----------



## DavecUK

I'm so unsympathetic I know, probably because I have 4 dual boiler machines and have used so many of them I am quite cavalier about things like that. I really care mainly about how well machines really works now....I know it's irritating though and I feel for you. I can always send you a roll of bubble wrap to place around the machine







Look on the bright side though, if past performance is any indication of future performance...it's going to get a lot more scratched and that mark will become less and less noticiable

....I'm not helping am I


----------



## Rob1

The worst damage I've done is by letting the wrench slip when removing the mushroom valve on the Expobar. Looks like it's been mauled. I plan to get my Minima up and running later, should probably add the pressure gauge to start with.


----------



## Hasi

@Rakesh I've posted the Autosol routine I did on a water tank cover a while back, somewhere around here. If you didn't apply brute force, you should be able to polish it away


----------



## Rakesh

Hasi said:


> @Rakesh I've posted the Autosol routine I did on a water tank cover a while back, somewhere around here. If you didn't apply brute force, you should be able to polish it away


I'll have a look for it and give it a go, thanks


----------



## moots

Sounds like the Autosol post needs to be pinned!


----------



## Hasi

moots said:


> Sounds like the Autosol post needs to be pinned!


Dunno, there was some discussion following it - not everybody might have agreed. It worked for me (and my Rocket), though.

Autosol is just a metal polishing agent, one could find and use other stuff as well


----------



## moots

Since when does anyone agree with anyone on here? ?

...Except in the "Where's My Quiche Zero, I Want It Now" thread(s)

It's great having a great an open Minima feedback thread, I'm sure we'll all make different discoveries, if not mistakes.


----------



## Hasi

moots said:


> "Where's My Quiche Zero, I Want It Now" thread(s)




isn't it the Quiche Nero they're all awaiting so badly?


----------



## Rho

Is it too late to get in as a beta tester? I'm very interested.


----------



## Jony

If you have read the thread you would know the answer.


----------



## Hasi

Jony said:


> If you have read the thread you would know the answer.


Let's tell 'em straight away: yes, too late. If there were another machine, there's folk queueing already.


----------



## Rakesh

Using square mike red brick blend I can't believe how balanced and tasty the shots are with around a 45s extraction time. My instincts are that it will be very dry and bitter and watching the shot makes me want to adjust my grinder without even tasting it... but then I taste the shot and it's very balanced and juicy.


----------



## Hasi

Rakesh said:


> Using square mike red brick blend I can't believe how balanced and tasty the shots are with around a 45s extraction time. My instincts are that it will be very dry and bitter and watching the shot makes me want to adjust my grinder without even tasting it... but then I taste the shot and it's very balanced.


that stuns me as well.

Had to go 30° finer on the Mazzer Mini dial, compared to the setting I used with the rotary pump Rocket Evo 2.

For the first 10 seconds, zero to almost nothing would show underneath basket. Then, a nice and fine and even flow for another 30sec. Boom so tasty!


----------



## Rob1

Plugged it in, flipped the switch, tripped the circuit breaker.


----------



## Rakesh

Hasi said:


> that stuns me as well.
> 
> Had to go 30° finer on the Mazzer Mini dial, compared to the setting I used with the rotary pump Rocket Evo 2.
> 
> For the first 10 seconds, zero to almost nothing would show underneath basket. Then, a nice and fine and even flow for another 30sec. Boom so tasty!


Very strange isn't it. Especially after being conditioned for years to believe shots around 30s are tasty and anything quicker or longer Is wrong.


----------



## Hasi

Rob1 said:


> Plugged it in, flipped the switch, tripped the circuit breaker.


Mains electricity is a-okay?


----------



## DavecUK

It's the slow and gentle ramp I think must do it....the grind is certainly finer than expected for machine type. The way it does shots is partly serendipity, just a group of components that came together well. The whole pump gicleur, thermosyphon pipe brew boiler things is something they need to be super wary of changing. The vent solenoid and vacuum breaker should be safe enough to mess with.


----------



## Hasi

Rakesh said:


> Very strange isn't it. Especially after being conditioned for years to believe shots around 30s are tasty and anything quicker or longer Is wrong.


Haha absolutely!

Further to this I'm planning to pair it with a Mahlkönig Guatemala, said to produce less fines. Really, really curious to taste the outcome of that combo


----------



## DavecUK

Just saw that Rob.

1. Was it when you ran the pump (pump switch, or was it the power switch on the machine, or the power switch on the wall?

2. If it was the power switch did you flip it for brew boiler only or both boilers (might be able to eliminate 1 boiler from this). If both does it do it if you only go for brew boiler

3. Is it leaking or wet anywhere

P.S. Sorry for what might be silly questions, but the Niche Zero thread has taught me to assume nothing. I also hope when you say circuit breaker you mean RCD.

P.S. In testing one of the Alphas I did manage to pop the tube off the expansion valve, which then sprayed the machine inde and it tripped the RCD...dired it off replaced damaged tube and it was all OK again.


----------



## Rob1

It's all dried out now. I only powered the brew boiler and didn't run the pump. I only intended it to be on for a second or two to see the pid light up but it just tripped the RCD.

There's no water in at the moment, I was just checking to make sure it would actually power on so leaks can't be an issue.

It could be that it was plugged into the extending cord but I wasn't running anything else from it at the time (the extension is still working). I'm using a good adapter that I use for the Gene, expobar, and Ceado (I took it from the grinder as it's just in storage).

I can check for shorts tonight.


----------



## Rakesh

Rob1 said:


> It's all dried out now. I only powered the brew boiler and didn't run the pump. I only intended it to be on for a second or two to see the pid light up but it just tripped the RCD.
> 
> There's no water in at the moment, I was just checking to make sure it would actually power on so leaks can't be an issue.
> 
> It could be that it was plugged into the extending cord but I wasn't running anything else from it at the time (the extension is still working). I'm using a good adapter that I use for the Gene, expobar, and Ceado (I took it from the grinder as it's just in storage).
> 
> I can check for shorts tonight.


It could be the adapter. When I got my machine I tried a variety of adapters and some of the shaving ones tripped my RCD and caused the machine to come on for a second or two before shutting off.

It was only when I found a cord intended for networking switches but also fit the minima was I able to get it to turn on.


----------



## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> It's all dried out now. I only powered the brew boiler and didn't run the pump. I only intended it to be on for a second or two to see the pid light up but it just tripped the RCD.
> 
> There's no water in at the moment, I was just checking to make sure it would actually power on so leaks can't be an issue.
> 
> It could be that it was plugged into the extending cord but I wasn't running anything else from it at the time (the extension is still working). I'm using a good adapter that I use for the Gene, expobar, and Ceado (I took it from the grinder as it's just in storage).
> 
> I can check for shorts tonight.


Has it never been powered on before then, this was the first time since receiving it?

OK well a few more things to check I guess. Lots of assumptions and guesses here, so don't worry if you don't have some of these situations.

1. You removed the mains wires and refitted, hopefully nothing came loose or bit of live wire touching sheel (going to assume all that was done properly)

2. If your using some euro converter thing, cut it off and wire a proper plug on (while your waiting, open the converter and check

3. The machines all received some serious abuse, check underneath that a boiler electrical connector isn't touching the bottom of the case (use torch)

4. Look for any loose wires which may have come off.

And as you say, if you have a meter you can do some checks (machine unplugged of course)....the most obvious being live pin of the machines connector (one on the case) and the case itself, plus do it with the neutral pin as well. This will tell you whether the power connector or power circuit has a direct short to earth (resistance scale). You can also do that with the brew boiler heating element connectors to the frame, but they might have a very high resistance and no show up the short so easily.


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> 2. If your using some euro converter thing, cut it off and wire a proper plug on (while your waiting, open the converter and check


Before cutting, you could also borrow the power cord of another device (computer, espresso machine, etc. anything featuring the same rubber connector) that is known to function properly.


----------



## Rho

Jony said:


> If you have read the thread you would know the answer.


Yes, needlessly reading through 200+ posts is totally reasonable when a simple answer would do. Was it really that hard to just answer the question?

Edit: Paolo_Cortese Hasi Thank you for the helpful replies.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese

Rho said:


> Yes, needlessly reading through 200+ posts is totally reasonable when a simple answer would do. Was it really that hard to just answer the question?


Rho sorry at moment no other machines are available for beta tester. in a month or so the new production will be ready, of course at a different price.


----------



## filthynines

I would imagine the pointed responses you received was because you hadn't been involved in this forum at all until the moment you wanted in on quite a good deal.


----------



## DavecUK

filthynines said:


> I would imagine the pointed responses you received was because you hadn't been involved in this forum at all until the moment you wanted in on quite a good deal.


I can't blame him, the only thing he may not have been mentally prepared as for what having a beta really means. It's a cheap machine, but you guys know what I mean. It needs patience a willingness to accept difficulties, sure it will all be good in the end ACS will make sure of that, but it needs people who understand what's involved. I'm pleased to say so far the Beta testers have certainly exceeded my expectations in this so far.


----------



## Rho

@filthynines Ahh, that makes sense. I am pretty new here, so I didn't realize I needed to contribute a certain amount to be eligible. Could you point me to the guidelines for eligibility?


----------



## Rho

Thanks for the extra info @DavecUK. I'm a huge fan of your reviews, they've been an enormous help to me. I am new to espresso machines and have really benefited from your detail-oriented approach. I know this is probably derailing the thread a bit, and I apologize for that, but I will probably end up buying a Bianca based on your review. I was reading through that thread on this forum when I saw the beta for the Minima and thought it might work just as well for a relative newcomer.


----------



## 4085

Rho said:


> @filthynines Ahh, that makes sense. I am pretty new here, so I didn't realize I needed to contribute a certain amount to be eligible. Could you point me to the guidelines for eligibility?


I might be mistaken, so please excuse me if I am, but i~ think it is covered under the heading of freeloading and contributing bugger all to the forum


----------



## Rho

dfk41 said:


> I might be mistaken, so please excuse me if I am, but i~ think it is covered under the heading of freeloading and contributing bugger all to the forum


It wasn't my intention to freeload. I didn't see anything listing a requirement for the beta, so it seemed reasonable to inquire about signing up.


----------



## Hasi

Keep calm and drink some more coffee.


----------



## Rob1

test for formatting


----------



## Rob1

test for formatting


----------



## Rob1

Why is the formatting of this page so messed up?

EDIT: Turns out it was my fault somehow.


----------



## Hasi

Rob1 said:


> Is it possible the switch is wired incorrectly?


Would be my guess.

Isn't there a wiring diagram at the end of the manual?


----------



## Rob1

DavecUK said:


> Has it never been powered on before then, this was the first time since receiving it?
> 
> OK well a few more things to check I guess. Lots of assumptions and guesses here, so don't worry if you don't have some of these situations.
> 
> 1. You removed the mains wires and refitted, hopefully nothing came loose or bit of live wire touching sheel (going to assume all that was done properly)
> 
> 2. If your using some euro converter thing, cut it off and wire a proper plug on (while your waiting, open the converter and check
> 
> 3. The machines all received some serious abuse, check underneath that a boiler electrical connector isn't touching the bottom of the case (use torch)
> 
> 4. Look for any loose wires which may have come off.
> 
> And as you say, if you have a meter you can do some checks (machine unplugged of course)....the most obvious being live pin of the machines connector (one on the case) and the case itself, plus do it with the neutral pin as well. This will tell you whether the power connector or power circuit has a direct short to earth (resistance scale). You can also do that with the brew boiler heating element connectors to the frame, but they might have a very high resistance and no show up the short so easily.


1. I am a bit suspicious about a couple of things (see pictures to follow). There's a cable just lying loose on the bottom of the boiler that looks like it's been cut...EDIT: Maybe has fallen from the power switch if the service boiler has pushed up against it.

2. Sound advice, I'll chop of the euro plug and fit a UK one but I've checked the converter and the euro lead and they're both fine. When the euro lead is plugged in there's a short. I missed it the first time and plugged it back in and it popped the power off again. This time I had the power switch on the machine in the neutral position so the short must be located between the plug on the machine and the power switch.

3. The electrical connectors all seem fine but I did spot a ribbon cable touching the bottom of the brew boiler (pics to follow).

There's circuit between the live and neutral wires when the brew and service boilers are switched to on but none when the brew boiler is on. I've checked the live and natural wires to the thermostat on the service boilers and got a circuit but nothing with the brew boiler. The resistance was 40 ohms. How do I reset the thermal fuse on the brew boiler? Seems like it's gone, i tried pressing the black cap down but it feels like it's there to stop something being pressed rather than aide it.

EDIT: Thermal fuse hasn't gone. There is a circuit there (or I managed to reset it) but when the toggle is switched to the brew boiler position there is no circuit (with the probes on the live and neutral connectors) with the toggle to the service and brew boilers I do get a circuit.

Is it possible the switch is wired incorrectly? The only way I can really get to it to check is to remove the service boiler. White is connected to the left side and black to the right side. Bottom right is empty, middle right has two black wires, top right has one black wire. Left side has one white wire in the top left but I can't make out the other connections.


----------



## Rob1

Hasi said:


> Would be my guess.
> 
> Isn't there a wiring diagram at the end of the manual?


There is but as I said I can't see the left side of the switch because of a humongous boiler.


----------



## Hasi

Rob1 said:


> There is but as I said I can't see the left side of the switch because of a humongous boiler.


And you cant undo the switch for better view/access?

A small mirror or cell phone camera also won't show more?

Don't have the machine open right now... all I can remember is that it's really packed in there.


----------



## Rob1

I guess I could try to remove the right hand connections but I'd have a lot of trouble getting them back in again I think.

Image showing a terminal block with a connection that looks loose. It looks like the other end of it goes to the lower left connection on the three way toggle (looking at schematic in the back of the manual). Hint: Zoom in...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1iq05fws9i8s3ai/IMG_20181008_230925.jpg?dl=0

Completely useless image illustrating what I see when I look at the wiring to the switch. Circled to show what I'm aiming at...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lchviw89cgb64nv/IMG_20181008_230958.jpg?dl=0

Last but not least, a purple wire just chilling under the service boiler. The copper core is visible but doesn't appear to be touching anything. I'm not sure where the other end of it goes. Again, zoom in.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ub5qza1wcrhx47y/IMG_20181008_231041.jpg?dl=0


----------



## Hasi

the second image looks as if the one connector on the right had been bent quite a bit. Chances are it ruined the internals of the switch...

Maybe insufficient cable length causing mechanical stress during assembly or shipping... just a bold guess.


----------



## Rob1

Hasi said:


> the second image looks as if the one connector on the right had been bent quite a bit. Chances are it ruined the internals of the switch...
> 
> Maybe insufficient cable length causing mechanical stress during assembly or shipping... just a bold guess.


It has to have been done in the factory though as that's the only way the boiler will fit in. I think it's just the solenoid to fill the service boiler. I'm really leaning towards that dodgy looking connection on the terminal block as the source of my problems.


----------



## ashcroc

Rob1 said:


> I guess I could try to remove the right hand connections but I'd have a lot of trouble getting them back in again I think.
> 
> Image showing a terminal block with a connection that looks loose. It looks like the other end of it goes to the lower left connection on the three way toggle (looking at schematic in the back of the manual). Hint: Zoom in...
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/1iq05fws9i8s3ai/IMG_20181008_230925.jpg?dl=0
> 
> Completely useless image illustrating what I see when I look at the wiring to the switch. Circled to show what I'm aiming at...
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/lchviw89cgb64nv/IMG_20181008_230958.jpg?dl=0
> 
> Last but not least, a purple wire just chilling under the service boiler. The copper core is visible but doesn't appear to be touching anything. I'm not sure where the other end of it goes. Again, zoom in.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/ub5qza1wcrhx47y/IMG_20181008_231041.jpg?dl=0


Think that purple wire in the last photo may be your problem. While the piece in the photo is just resting on it's insulation on the base, the other piece may be touching the chassis causing a short. Have you checked if you hsve continuity between live/neutral & earth in all switch configurations?


----------



## DavecUK

Rob, as I understand it your machine is being replaced, so it's probably best not to do any more than the simple stuff you have already done and wait for the replacement Minima. I think it's going to be dispatched by Friday, so you should have it very soon. It's already built but simply awaiting the revised expansion valve instead of the current version to save sending the part later.

Oh just to clarify, all machines are wet tested before they leave the factory, so if things happen, it's going to be a transit thing. The inspection of the damaged machines back at ACS will be useful in identifying if other areas unseen by the user are being damaged by the shipping abuse and whether it's preventable.


----------



## Rob1

Yes I was told I was to send the machine back after I first reported what appeared to be minor damage to the frame and that it was wet. However as a beta tester I thought I should really try to get it up and running, if nothing else I'd be testing how easily problems can found and solved by an end user. I thought If I could get it working there would be no need to send it back, but I didn't expect to run into wiring issues. I'm guessing the very minor bending of the frame was enough to push and pull the service boiler against something in such a way it dislodged it. Having everything so compact must make it more susceptible to damage in this way, so hopefully at least with the production machines the packaging can be cut to form and offer a lot more protection as, as moots said, it was very flimsy and offered very little protection. I know the pallet would likely have been enough to prevent damage if the feet weren't on but still I think it's best to pack things with the assumption they're going to be dropped and abused and to give them protection in excess of what should ever be required rather than to give them protection that should just be adequate.


----------



## DavecUK

I was just worried for safety as it was all getting a bit electrically complex.


----------



## Hasi

Had my first visitor over for a little tasting session, the other night.

We were both wowed by the consistency of shots produced with no special effort (no stirring, just a little tapping and nutating at gastro-speed). Pulled some straight doubles (18.5 for 39-40g in 39.5-40sec), even with differing degrees of roast of the same beans it wasn't necessary to completely redial the grinder. Just a tad up and down the coarseness while keeping dosage level seemed perfectly fine.

He was really impressed by all the flavours this little thingy would unlock.


----------



## Rob1

Well no shipping today...

Anyone got any further updates, comments, observations etc?


----------



## moots

Well, my Folks managed to get a decent shot with the Minima, after a few attempts. They're not seasoned espresso machine users and they used supermarket beans and a non-coffee grinder (I know, the horror! ), so I think they did well.

I'll have some further tales when I get my hands on the machine next week... plus the Quiche Nero that's waiting patiently for me, and a shipment of some nice beans from forum user Tsangpa.

The timing has been unfortunate, but c'est la vie.

Edit. I meant to add - I hope the replacement machine wings it's way to you soon, Rob. Must be frustrating ☕


----------



## Rob1

@Paolo_Cortese any news regarding delays/schedule of replacement machines, developments based on some of the feedback you've received so far?


----------



## Hasi

Because everybody should bring along what they do best, I took the baby to a great BBQ Sunday with well over twenty friends 

Singles, Doubles, Americanos, Cappuccinos, Latte Macchiatos, all of them... Every fifth or so shot I tasted one just to see how it would perform over these extended periods of action. I tell you, that small machine is hard wearing!

We all sat outside, so was the Minima - shining and dazzling pretty wildly.

There were no coffee nerds around, however, folk was very much interested in the Minima's looks and footprint and quietness. And they were impressed with the results  

Also, I used its steam wand for the first time - holy...! Fast and shear endlessly going!!

After that abuse (and a good clean) we returned home with the Minima looking as perfect as before. One thing I noticed by then: laser cut lines would feature rather sharp creases likely to tangle up the cleaning cloth around its body.

And I'd wish so much for a drip tray cover that locks into place  I'll see maybe I can come up with another el Cheapo fix.

to be continued!


----------



## Paolo_Cortese

Rob1 said:


> @Paolo_Cortese any news regarding delays/schedule of replacement machines, developments based on some of the feedback you've received so far?


Hi Rob there was a delay in receiving the new parts, today the machine will be fixed with new parts and shipped tomorrow. I'll try my best in order to receive the machine within this week.


----------



## Rakesh

@Hasi agree with you on the laser cut lines, wiping the drip tray and cup warmer surround completely shreds my microfibre cloth. A locking drip tray would also be much nicer.

One thing I noticed with the drip tray is that it wraps around the outside of the machine rather than sits inside the machine if you catch what I mean... this means any water flowing onto the drip tray easily flows along the solid 'zig zags' of the tray and onto the kitchen counter. Also the 'zig zag' parts of the tray seem a tad wide which means that they can hold a fair bit of water on top, perhaps if the edges were somehow rounded downwards into the tray water would be less likely to accumulate.


----------



## ryan111

Hi All

While I thought I would wait until I get the replacement machine before I did my full thoughts on it I have been making a few shots on this one in the meantime. It is making great coffee. However i have noticed one small thing and wanted to see if anyone else also has or if it was just me.

I leave the brew boiler on all day (7-7) and turn the steam boiler on and off between the two - three hours between coffees. I have noticed that sometimes I have an issue when I go back to the machine to make another coffee when the brew boiler is reading at correct temp (set at 93 degrees). The first time I did it the shot didn't pour and I thought I had done something wrong, but the grinds were dry when I took the portafilter back off. I have since found that when this happens, if I try to run it or use the blank portafilter no water comes through and the pressure doesn't rise, when I turn off the brew switch the brew temp reads significantly lower ~84 degrees, it then comes back up to temp over a minute or two and runs fine after that.

Has anyone seen the same thing or has any thoughts?


----------



## moots

Rakesh said:


> @Hasi Also the 'zig zag' parts of the tray seem a tad wide which means that they can hold a fair bit of water on top, perhaps if the edges were somehow rounded downwards into the tray water would be less likely to accumulate.


Would a coating of RainX or Carnauba wax help as a temporary hack, perhaps?

M


----------



## Hasi

ryan111 said:


> Hi All
> 
> While I thought I would wait until I get the replacement machine before I did my full thoughts on it I have been making a few shots on this one in the meantime. It is making great coffee. However i have noticed one small thing and wanted to see if anyone else also has or if it was just me.
> 
> I leave the brew boiler on all day (7-7) and turn the steam boiler on and off between the two - three hours between coffees. I have noticed that sometimes I have an issue when I go back to the machine to make another coffee when the brew boiler is reading at correct temp (set at 93 degrees). The first time I did it the shot didn't pour and I thought I had done something wrong, but the grinds were dry when I took the portafilter back off. I have since found that when this happens, if I try to run it or use the blank portafilter no water comes through and the pressure doesn't rise, when I turn off the brew switch the brew temp reads significantly lower ~84 degrees, it then comes back up to temp over a minute or two and runs fine after that.
> 
> Has anyone seen the same thing or has any thoughts?


Did you go through the PID calibration procedure?

Mine wasn't set the way Dave describes it at the end of the manual.


----------



## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> Did you go through the PID calibration procedure?
> 
> Mine wasn't set the way Dave describes it at the end of the manual.


I am also not clear if the pump is running or not


----------



## moots

Evening all. I FINALLY got my hands on my Minima and the Niche.

On Sunday, I got about half way through the Minima filling process (the machine had been emptied of water for transport by car) and then suddenly - no power.

Turns out the kettle plug had a 5 amp fuse. Doh. Swapped it this evening for a 13A.

My first two shots were bitter, but I remember I had this problem with my previous setup (Classic + F5). Binned the beans. I used my new stash of beans from @Tsangpa.

I then made a shot which wasn't bitter and was drinkable naked (I mean without added milk/water, I was fully clothed )

Second shot also good, slightly better as I needed a harder tamp. Still some dialling in and practice to go from good to gorgeous.

Details for 2nd shot: 18g of beans. 18g of grounds - after giving the Niche a good tap and a rock back and forth.

The Niche is on its factory grind setting still.

I used the Niche grind cup to deposit grounds into PF, and then stirred with a cocktail stick.

I'm using a Pullman 18g basket with a Big Step tamper. It's certainly a snug fit.

The result was 40g of coffee in 40.1 seconds.

The Minima is easy to use to make a shot, I really like the super positive switches.

The steam wheel I'm not used to yet (it opens a long way), but as most of my previous experience has been using a client's Sage dual boiler which has a steam lever, it's just a matter of time, I think.

Quite excited about having a coffee tomorrow morning!

Edit - I meant to add: Blimey, the steam is powerful! My Classic is weedy in comparison, the Sage DB much quicker than Classic, but the Minima is a stream monster!

M


----------



## Hasi

moots said:


> Would a coating of RainX or Carnauba wax help as a temporary hack, perhaps?
> 
> M


Wouldn't have any to my avail ...how do you find water retention on drip tray cover - now that you're hands on with them triangles?

Speaking of which: using the cup raiser thingy I usually end up not getting it to lock in place (the way it was meant to be by providing these two guides on one end). Happens simply because I put it there the wrong way around. Would be easier to remember distinctive front and different back, giving this little attachment a clear direction 

I know, the shape is not 100% symmetrical, yet it appears slightly too subtle at the moment.


----------



## moots

Hasi said:


> how do you find water retention on drip tray cover - now that you're hands on with them triangles? .


Thems be purdy triangles, but yes, they're water-droplet-retention-tastic!

I shall try a workaround, when I get my hands on something suitably slippery.



Hasi said:


> I know, the shape is not 100% symmetrical, yet it appears slightly too subtle at the moment.


I didn't realise it locked in, ta for that! It's a neat feature.

So far, I've only used the riser atop a set of scales; it's very early days here...

M


----------



## Rob1

Just unpacked and set up my replacement. This one works. I've brought it up to temp and ran water and steam through it... I've also checked the TDS of the water and holy hell I've got a lot of flushing to do before I can use it. 525 vs my brew water of 110. I'll be using my 250 TDS filtered tap water to flush everything out then switch to just using my remineralised water. The tap water should add a tiny amount of protective scale to both boilers and pipes without adversely affecting performance and machine health.

Packaging was much improved. The machine was shipped with the feet on again but the polystyrene was cut to form and offered much more protection (both top and bottom pieces). On the downside there are still some issues with quality control and care for parts in the factory. The group has some minor surface scratches (the kind you might get from buffing with a dirty cloth). They might well polish out, either way I'm not bothered enough by it to start trying to swap the groups out...yet. I reported a couple of very minor dings/marks to the bottomless and double spout pfs and a ding to the underside of the lug on the single spout pf which means it would scratch the inside of the group when used. The tamper I received was also badly scratched and has small chips to the tamping edge. On the replacement machine aside from the marks to the group one of the feet is knarled like it has been held in a vice for some reason. I requested a replacement only for the single spout but it hasn't arrived with the machine, maybe my email was lost or forgotten ...

I'll say only the cause of this type of cosmetic damage needs to found and resolved before moving to retail...Or maybe I'm just unlucky.

I'm really looking forward to using this thing tomorrow and playing with the massive wand.


----------



## Hasi

Rob1 said:


> I'm really looking forward to using this thing tomorrow and playing with the massive wand.


Behave!



Great attention to detail and additions to surface quality topics. 

Especially the bit where one small defect (on single spout PF) may cause another issue (group scratched) provides valuable directions for ACS purchasing/sourcing/QM guidelines.


----------



## moots

Rob1 said:


> Or maybe I'm just unlucky.


The lovely one-piece ACS tamper I have that came with the machine has some marks.










Plus, I have a question. With the included Minima parts, what is this piece of rubber for? I'm now thinking it's a tamp rest, though it's not quite big enough.










M


----------



## ashcroc

moots said:


> The lovely one-piece ACS tamper I have that came with the machine has some marks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus, I have a question. With the included Minima parts, what is this piece of rubber for? I'm now thinking it's a tamp rest, though it's not quite big enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M


The rubber disk is for converting a basket to backflush.


----------



## moots

Neat, thanks ashcroc!


----------



## Rob1

Yeah the rubber disc thing doesn't work very well though. I think they come with all espresso machines. A proper blank filter was also provided though? I'm fairly version I got one in the bag with the rubber and felt pads top go on the feet.


----------



## Hasi

btw, have you received the 2-hole steam tip?

Not that I needed it (much happier with a 3-hole tip)... just being curious


----------



## Rakesh

Hasi said:


> btw, have you received the 2-hole steam tip?
> 
> Not that I needed it (much happier with a 3-hole tip)... just being curious


I didn't recieve a two-hole.


----------



## moots

Rakesh said:


> I didn't recieve a two-hole.


Same here. However, having watched DaveC's videos on steaming with the Minima, I don't think I'll need it.


----------



## moots

Time for a random Minima + Niche photo!


----------



## Hasi

moots said:


> Time for a random Minima + Niche photo!


+++ for the toothpick!


----------



## DavecUK

Pisses me off when bits that should be in there are not!


----------



## Rob1

I pulled two doubles today. One rushed through in 28 seconds and tasted weak, the other took 60 seconds to hit 36g from 18g of coffee. I'd obviously adjusted the grinder to go finer and I also dosed an extra gram. Typically one notch finer on the grinder gives an extra 5 seconds to the pour but clearly not in this case. I dropped from 18g to 17g because of a patch looking extraction on the Expobar; it's a very dark roast and completely fills the 18g VST at the normal dose. Tomorrow I'll try 18g again at the old grind setting to see if it's still patchy with the slow ramp up.

Despite the grind clearly being too tight the pour was nice and even. I'll probably switch out the shower screen and gasket to the IMS+silicone one as the stock shower screen feels a bit rough when I wipe it with the cloth, though functionally it seems fine.

I backflushed the group while flushing the boilers as it was clearly dirty. Was very nice to be able to do it without wasting a lot o water filling the chambers of the ordinary e61 and without having to lubricate parts afterwards. What wasn't so nice was the minor flood I had to deal with afterwards. Despite changes to the solenoid it seems water either collects on the drip tray cover and flows down the back of the tray or it splashes out of the tray when it gets half full. In ordinary operation it doesn't seem to be a problem. After pulling the shots and using the steam wand (10 seconds to steam for a flat white) I checked behind the drip tray again and it was clear of any spills. Maybe the water just build up on the top of the drip tray grille and slipped down the back rather than splashing from the plastic drip tray itself due to the constant flushing. A simple depression in the cover would prevent the water from flowing towards the edges.










I haven't properly assessed steaming potential, tomorrow I'll do two lattes but so far I'm impressed. Steaming for the flat white is down from 40-45 seconds to 10-15 and the quality of the milk is much, much better. Even on the first attempt and the first time ever using a three hole tip I got results that match the best I've previously been able to achieve. A really nice feature is the ability to set the pressure using the PID so you can easily go down and up as the quantity of milk changes.

EDIT:

Forgot to add the pressure gauge still shows the pressure flickering around 9.5bar.


----------



## DavecUK

moots said:


> The lovely one-piece ACS tamper I have that came with the machine has some marks.
> 
> Plus, I have a question. With the included Minima parts, what is this piece of rubber for? I'm now thinking it's a tamp rest, though it's not quite big enough.
> 
> M


The rubber disk is a backflush disk, drop it in a double portafilter and flush away...much more convenient than changing a basket to a blank one. I have 3 or 4 of these. It also gives a larger volume of water for a backflush as opposed to a blind filter. I think you get a metal blind filter as well don't you?

Tamper was free, so don't look a gift horse in the mouth







, but I agree, if it's going out with Retail units it needs to be unmarked, otherwise they shouldn't bother. As far as fit and finish of the machine goes....it's a tricky one. It really depends how much cost increase it suffers. In other words, this










Or this.


----------



## moots

DavecUK said:


> it also gives a larger volume of water for a backflush as opposed to a blind filter.


Ah, that's a PROTIP!

Thanks (and everyone who replied) for noobsplaining 



DavecUK said:


> I think you get a metal blind filter as well don't you?


Yep, there was indeed a blind filter in the accessories bag.



DavecUK said:


> Tamper was free, so don't look a gift horse in the mouth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ,


Indeed. It is a lovely tamper, I do like a spot of hefty shiny. If it was VST spec, i'd be using it now.



DavecUK said:


> Bentley.jpg Defender.jpg


Fair point. I guess a Minima even at full price will be great value.

Apropos, I saw a TV documentary (ahem, part marketing exercise, obvs) on Bentley not long ago; the attention to detail was impressive and certainly befitted a £120k+ motor.

I recall that about 20 years ago, a friend's father, with an interest in engineering, quoted that quality control performed on a Mercedes took the same amount of time as the build on a Nissan [citation needed].

M


----------



## DavecUK

Aha I see lots of people explained before. I started my reply in the morning, then had to break off to give a roasting course and didn't finish the reply until late afternoon. By which time you had been noobsplained countless times


----------



## moots

Yours was (natch) the most comprehensive reply Dave, and even featured a bonus tip. Each and every reply really was much appreciated.

Group hug? 

I am now using the basket converter as a tamp rest, it slots really nicely into the triangles of the Minima's drip tray 

M


----------



## hotmetal

moots said:


> Group hug?


One way of warming it up quicker and keeping it temperature stable!

___

Eat, drink and be merry


----------



## ryan111

Hasi said:


> Did you go through the PID calibration procedure?
> 
> Mine wasn't set the way Dave describes it at the end of the manual.


Slow reply, I have been traveling for a few days. I did follow all the set up procedures, you are referring to the temperature the boilers are set at? I did check those, and they are now set to what is recommended.


----------



## ryan111

DavecUK said:


> I am also not clear if the pump is running or not


The pump was running as expected. Everything seems correct and as normal except there is no water coming through and after you turn the pump/brew switch back off the temp displayed for the brew boiler has dropped


----------



## DavecUK

Does water ever come through?


----------



## ryan111

DavecUK said:


> Does water ever come through?


The machine works as expected 99% of the time. I can't work out any pattern as to why this happens when it does.


----------



## DavecUK

ryan111 said:


> The machine works as expected 99% of the time. I can't work out any pattern as to why this happens when it does.


I'm still not clear on exactly what happens, probably because it's all been a bit bitty with the replies..

Can you explain exactly what happens, because at the moment all I got is.

*
99% of the time the water flows and it's all OK. Sometimes nothing comes out of the group and the PID drops....*

Of course the above doesn't logically make sense on it's own....e.g. something must come out eventually???, so what exactly happens then nothing comes out, does nothing ever come out if the pump is left on for 40 or 50 seconds, is their steam from the group, what does the pressure gauge show, is the expansion valve pipe showing a big flow as if there is an intermittent blockage in the group, is there a funny noise different to normal....what's happening?

Perhaps when it's doing it grab the phone and video it.


----------



## Rob1

ryan111 said:


> Slow reply, I have been traveling for a few days. I did follow all the set up procedures, you are referring to the temperature the boilers are set at? I did check those, and they are now set to what is recommended.


 Did you go into the advanced settings menu on the PID or not? Not just setting temperature but checking everything related to how the PID works. The calibration procedures are in the manual in case it's reset to factory accidentally. If for some reason it's set to take a long time to respond to drops in temperature then it might go some way to explaining why the temperature has dropped, but won't explain why sometimes no water comes out of the group. Have you checked for leaks? Did you flush the boilers with about two tanks of water each? Have you checked the hose in the water tank isn't getting blocked up?


----------



## Hasi

ryan111 said:


> Slow reply, I have been traveling for a few days. I did follow all the set up procedures, you are referring to the temperature the boilers are set at? I did check those, and they are now set to what is recommended.


I was referring to this:



Rob1 said:


> Did you go into the advanced settings menu on the PID or not? Not just setting temperature but checking everything related to how the PID works. The calibration procedures are in the manual in case it's reset to factory accidentally.


Because - @DavecUK correct me if I'm wrong







- you need your temp setting (and offset if applicable) to be in the ballpark so boiler pressure builds up.

Did the issue arise when brew AND service boilers were on?

If only brew boiler was active, maybe a wiring error between boilers and power switch could be the root of all evil...


----------



## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> I was referring to this:
> 
> Because - @DavecUK correct me if I'm wrong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - you need your temp setting (and offset if applicable) to be in the ballpark so boiler pressure builds up.
> 
> Did the issue arise when brew AND service boilers were on?
> 
> If only brew boiler was active, maybe a wiring error between boilers and power switch could be the root of all evil...


The brew boiler needs to be hot enough, but unlike the steam boiler all the pressure to produce a shot comes from the pump. That said there is an awful lot of information not given...so at the moment I have no idea as to the cause.


----------



## ryan111

DavecUK said:


> I'm still not clear on exactly what happens, probably because it's all been a bit bitty with the replies..
> 
> Can you explain exactly what happens, because at the moment all I got is.
> 
> *
> 99% of the time the water flows and it's all OK. Sometimes nothing comes out of the group and the PID drops....*
> 
> Of course the above doesn't logically make sense on it's own....e.g. something must come out eventually???, so what exactly happens then nothing comes out, does nothing ever come out if the pump is left on for 40 or 50 seconds, is their steam from the group, what does the pressure gauge show, is the expansion valve pipe showing a big flow as if there is an intermittent blockage in the group, is there a funny noise different to normal....what's happening?
> 
> Perhaps when it's doing it grab the phone and video it.


Hi Dave,

My first post with the best effort of my description was this

"I leave the brew boiler on all day (7-7) and turn the steam boiler on and off between the two - three hours between coffees. I have noticed that sometimes I have an issue when I go back to the machine to make another coffee when the brew boiler is reading at correct temp (set at 93 degrees). The first time I did it the shot didn't pour and I thought I had done something wrong, but the grinds were dry when I took the portafilter back off. I have since found that when this happens, if I try to run it or use the blank portafilter no water comes through and the pressure doesn't rise, when I turn off the brew switch the brew temp reads significantly lower ~84 degrees, it then comes back up to temp over a minute or two and runs fine after that. "

I have run the pump for up to 40-50 seconds and nothing comes through. Today I was able to reproduce it with the blind filter in and it took about 35 seconds before the pressure ramped up to 9.5 bar. There is no steam from the group. No different noise. Once the brew boiler temp comes back up to 93 it runs as it should on the next attempt

It seems to happen when I have switched the steam boiler off and come back to the machine after some time and then run it. I will try to capture it on video tomorrow.

I am also happy to have a phone chat if that helps, I am relatively new to the mechanics of a espresso machine so my descriptions might not be ideal.


----------



## MildredM

Apologies for a slightly irrelevant post but this reminded me of a fault with my R58 in the early days. As I said, it's probably totally irrelevant.


----------



## Rob1

MildredM said:


> Apologies for a slightly irrelevant post but this reminded me of a fault with my R58 in the early days. As I said, it's probably totally irrelevant.


Sounds like almost exactly the same thing.


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## Paolo_Cortese

In the water tank there are 2 pipes one for the pump and another is the exhaust of the expansion valve, could you check if when the problem happen the water comes out from there? Thanks

my phone number for video chat is +393485219694 Paolo


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## ryan111

Paolo_Cortese said:


> In the water tank there are 2 pipes one for the pump and another is the exhaust of the expansion valve, could you check if when the problem happen the water comes out from there? Thanks
> 
> my phone number for video chat is +393485219694 Paolo


Today I tested it with the blind filter in, after having the steam boiler off for a couple of hours I ran the machine and it took just over 30 seconds before the pressure came up to the standard ~9.5 bar, for the first 30 seconds nothing came out of the return pipe to the water tank, once the pressure came up the water did flow out of the return pipe.


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## Rob1

Does the pressure in the service boiler rise or does water come out of the steam tap or wand if you leave them open (while the service boiler is cold) and while running the pump?


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## DavecUK

Sounds like the brew boiler is loosing water, somewhere in the brew circuit it's not totally sealed. Could be expansion valve could be elsewhere. If enough comes out, thetmosyphon will stop, brew boiler takes a little time to fill and you get the behaviour you describe. I bet the group is cooler than usual when it happens?

Open top allow to hear and look for very slow leaks or hissing from fitting and also check tank return tubes.


----------



## ryan111

DavecUK said:


> Sounds like the brew boiler is loosing water, somewhere in the brew circuit it's not totally sealed. Could be expansion valve could be elsewhere. If enough comes out, thetmosyphon will stop, brew boiler takes a little time to fill and you get the behaviour you describe. I bet the group is cooler than usual when it happens?
> 
> Open top allow to hear and look for very slow leaks or hissing from fitting and also check tank return tubes.


Ill do this tomorrow, I only really get one or two opportunities a day to reproduce the issue. It does make sense. After it does this the temp reading for the brew boiler drops considerably (say ~84 degrees) straight after the timer clears.

This is still the damaged machine, still waiting for a replacement to be sent, considering how bent it it I would not be surprised if something was leaking or pinched inside, I haven't noticed any water though and the problem only seems to occur when I leave the steam boiler off.


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## Hasi

Today in the morning we were suddenly sitting in the dark. One could argue it was because we got up an hour early due to the nightly clock change. Fact of the matter is, something tripped the mains circuit breaker.

After some search what might have caused the failure, it turned out to be the Minima idling in the basement. Apparently.

I could reproduce the issue two times by switching it off, putting power back on and ultimately switching the machine on again (same state as before: both boilers on).

After a while I went on to give it a try only with brew boiler on. Everything fine. Funny enough, both boilers are back on for an hour now, nothing happened since.

I'll keep an eye on it...

One thing I came across when inspecting the Minima:










Haven't seen this little leak before, but pretty safe to say it hasn't got anything to do with above power thing...


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## Rakesh

@Hasi I keep my minima on for most of the day and never experienced it trip the mains...strange.


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## ashcroc

Is it possible you have other things (fridges, heaters etc) on the same circuit that overload it if they happen to be all running at the same time?


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## Hasi

ashcroc said:


> Is it possible you have other things (fridges, heaters etc) on the same circuit that overload it if they happen to be all running at the same time?


Nothing more than usual - machine has been plugged into that circuit ever since and is on 4-8 hours a day.

It tripped the main fuse, I should've added. Not a single circuit.


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## Rakesh

Bit off topic from the previous few posts but is anyone else finding the minima to be ridiculously forgivable? I pull shots that are 20 seconds or even over a minute long and they are still quite balanced... much more balanced than they would be on any other standard pump machine. I find it really strange as I've yet to pull any sink shots at all, even when switching between beans that differ in roast significantly.


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## Hasi

Rakesh said:


> Bit off topic from the previous few posts but is anyone else finding the minima to be ridiculously forgivable? I pull shots that are 20 seconds or even over a minute long and they are still quite balanced... much more balanced than they would be on any other standard pump machine. I find it really strange as I've yet to pull any sink shots at all, even when switching between beans that differ in roast significantly.


Yep, absolutely!

Said it somewhere before - stunning!


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## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> Nothing more than usual - machine has been plugged into that circuit ever since and is on 4-8 hours a day.
> 
> It tripped the main fuse, I should've added. Not a single circuit.


Is the circuit protected by an RCD or is it just an ordinary breaker, important to aid fault diagnostics?

The leak on the group probably happens when it warms up from cold then stops when it's hot, watch it on it's next warm up...if I'm right., tighten the nut where it's leaking (using jaw protectors on any wrnch) and do this tightening when the machine is cold in the morning, the colder the better. If it's already tight, use 7+ turns of PTFE tape (and still use the teflon washer). Often the teflon washers don't always produce a great seal.

P.S. Is your water quite hard?


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## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> Is the circuit protected by an RCD or is it just an ordinary breaker, important to aid fault diagnostics?
> 
> The leak on the group probably happens when it warms up from cold then stops when it's hot, watch it on it's next warm up...if I'm right., tighten the nut where it's leaking (using jaw protectors on any wrnch) and do this tightening when the machine is cold in the morning, the colder the better. If it's already tight, use 7+ turns of PTFE tape (and still use the teflon washer). Often the teflon washers don't always produce a great seal.
> 
> P.S. Is your water quite hard?


Main fuse is equivalent to your RCD, only adhering to Austrian norms and standards. It was installed less than two years ago by professionals when building our house.

Apart from those two instances today in the morning, we haven't had any issues with electricity. Also during the day, it didn't return 

Thank you, will try to tighten/undo and reseal the big nut 

Mains water is BWT AQA Smart filtered to 7° dH (1.25mmol/l). We happen to live 5mins drive from the factory 

Without that, water is super hard - some 17-18° dH (3.0-3.2mmol/l).


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## Rob1

Rakesh said:


> Bit off topic from the previous few posts but is anyone else finding the minima to be ridiculously forgivable? I pull shots that are 20 seconds or even over a minute long and they are still quite balanced... much more balanced than they would be on any other standard pump machine. I find it really strange as I've yet to pull any sink shots at all, even when switching between beans that differ in roast significantly.


I noticed it made my dark roast beans taste incredibly bitter at 40 seconds whereas the Expobar didn't. To me this suggests it extracts more but it could also be the water. I suspect it's the former as I've flushed briefly with distilled water to bring the tds down and have been running it with remineralised water for a week so it should be close to spec...I might be in for a nice surprise when switching back to the usual medium roasts.

I'm not getting any splashing over the dip tray from the valve and my opv isn't screaming, but I haven't adjusted it down from 9.5 yet. The drip tray is a nightmare, I have to pull it out to make sure water hasn't dribbled down the back after every use.


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## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> I noticed it made my dark roast beans taste incredibly bitter at 40 seconds whereas the Expobar didn't. To me this suggests it extracts more but it could also be the water. I suspect it's the former as I've flushed briefly with distilled water to bring the tds down and have been running it with remineralised water for a week so it should be close to spec...I might be in for a nice surprise when switching back to the usual medium roasts.
> 
> I'm not getting any splashing over the dip tray from the valve and my opv isn't screaming, but I haven't adjusted it down from 9.5 yet. The drip tray is a nightmare, I have to pull it out to make sure water hasn't dribbled down the back after every use.


Rob, leave the expansion valve at 9.5, that's a good pressure for it. I don't understand how water is getting behind the drip tray as don't you have the new fitting on the solenoid valve and the hole in the drip tray below? I can't see how water would get behind it. I use a piece of sponge in mine with the earlier version of solenoid with tube goes into, this prevents splash and no water gets behind my tray?

Photos of your solenoid valve and drip tray would be incredibly useful.


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## Hasi

No comment...


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## moots

Dude, that doesn't need a grind cup, it needs a grind VASE!


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## MildredM

Hasi said:


> No comment...


I will make it then - they look fabulous together


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## Hasi

Now that Herman is recalibrated, I pulled a first shot at the new finest setting: 18.5 for 38 in 29s using a medium roast.

Oh boy what a whole new world! Much fruitier, although it could use 19-19.5g on my next try...










And again, here stands the ever-forgiving Minima in all her glory, screeching sounds are mostly history, and she can easily keep up with upstairs' rotary Rocket.

One thing, though: she loves a good clean much more than other machines I've used to date. Especially the drip tray. Never try to clean the latter one-handed as it will slide about and off the frame.

Good thing is: due to her simple geometries the procedure proves to be a quick and easy task.


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## Rob1

i think I've found the source of the leak. I've had a bit of paper towel slipped under the gap between the front of the machine and the back and it hasn't collected water since last I posted until yesterday when I noticed it was soaked. It took a few passes with the edges of a couple of paper towels until they stopped coming out wet (so the leak can't have been substantial, looking at about 5 ml). I noticed water beading across the underside of the metal drip tray cover and making its way over to the corners and to the underside of the frame so thought it could be from that if it got flooded from using the espazzola or purging the water from the steam wand (any tips on how to stop it from squirting out in three directions?). I use a cloth wrapped around the steam tip but the path for the water is still a bit unpredictable and usually ends up on a section of the drip tray that doesn't have any holes in it (especially the parts between the group and wand). Anyway last night I checked the little slip of paper towel and it was dry. I turning it on to trigger the service boiler refill after letting it cool down (so it didn't do it when it comes on in the morning) and left it at that. This morning I checked again before I came to make a shot and it was soaking wet. Dried it out, made a shot and again there was water under the area where the pump is. I'm guessing the teflon tube just needs fiddling with on the pump outlet side so I'll open it up tonight and have a look. I have been a bit surprised by how loud the pump is so maybe it has slipped a bit.


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## DavecUK

It's actually a quieter pump than an ULKA, but it's right near the front and of course there is the hole in the front plate (for the wires) behind the solenoid valve. If the pump was at the back, they couldn't have fitted in those big boilers.


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## Rob1

Found the leak, if you look closely at the image you'll see a tiny hole with a bit of shiny brass showing through it. Good news it's at the top and most accessible part of the machine. A simple snip and refit job I think.










If I were to need to get to the pump it looks like removing the solenoid on the front and going in under the group would be a decent bet. Otherwise you'll probably have to remove electronics?

On another note anyone know how to adjust this OPV? It's not something I'm really interested in yet but maybe at some point in the future I'll want to turn it down a bit.


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## Hasi

Is that slit or ripped?



Rob1 said:


> On another note anyone know how to adjust this OPV? It's not something I'm really interested in yet but maybe at some point in the future I'll want to turn it down a bit.


undo the pipe leading back into the tank and use two wrenches (15 and 16 if I remember correctly) to slightly turn the left-hand piece of the OPV outwards. Be careful to only turn by a couple degrees as it seems quite sensitive.

Put pipe back on and try out (blind basket...). Only refit a zip tie once you're done - this is the non-pressurised side so it shouldn't leak.


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## Rob1

No idea. Looks like a small cut, could well be from forcing the zip tie onto it as when I put it back on I couldn't get it as tight.


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## DavecUK

You don't really need a cable tie you know, just push the tube on, It won't come off. it's also easier to adjust the Expansion valve as the body stays still and the bit the tube is on is rotated using a spanner on the hex bit.


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## Rob1

Yeah I didn't think it would but I stuck it back on just in case a bit of tugging on the tubes when removing the reservoir might eventually work it loose.


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## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> No comment...


Looks even better in the Photo







seriously though, are you finding the design starts to make sense once you use it a bit..


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## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> Looks even better in the Photo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> seriously though, are you finding the design starts to make sense once you use it a bit..


Definitely!

Even with a grown machine like the Rocket I find a few bits and bobs are always in the way - not with this design!

And - as you said earlier - it's crazy space on the drip tray.

Thumbs up!!


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## moots

The Minima is definitely a joy to use.

The only thing I struggle with is when steaming milk, in the heat of the moment*, I forget which way to turn the steam control and often end up opening it up fully rather than closing it off.

Just what I need as the milk jug resting in the palm of my hand suddenly becomes very "heavy" as it's reached temperature, now a bit too hot, and I do a monkey impression 

This is just me having a blonde moment, give me another six months and I'll have it down pat 

* pun wasn't intended,but I'll take it


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## Rob1

I'd be interested to hear if everybody else has the pressure ramp as it appears in Dave's videos? Mine seems to ramp up faster, maybe because of the different OPV. I'll fit the group pressure gauge soon but before that I'll take a video of the pressure gauge on the machine to show what I'm seeing.


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## Hasi

Rob1 said:


> I'd be interested to hear if everybody else has the pressure ramp as it appears in Dave's videos? Mine seems to ramp up faster, maybe because of the different OPV. I'll fit the group pressure gauge soon but before that I'll take a video of the pressure gauge on the machine to show what I'm seeing.


Mine ramps pretty slowly - having set the OPV to about 8.5bar. Will do a side-by-side with Dave's video next time and report back


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## Rob1

Is your opv still screaming at you?


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## Rakesh

Rob1 said:


> Is your opv still screaming at you?


Mine does


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## DavecUK

Rakesh said:


> Mine does


you are hurting it...It's just a vibration like a reed in an Instrument, not much you can do except adjust the pressure a little (just a little is enough).


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## Hasi

Rob1 said:


> Is your opv still screaming at you?


sometimes. slightly.

More a moaning, though.


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## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> you are hurting it...It's just a vibration like a reed in an Instrument, not much you can do except adjust the pressure a little (just a little is enough).


which way would you suggest? rather tighten a bit?


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## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> which way would you suggest? rather tighten a bit?


Whichever you prefer


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## Rob1

My machine with the new OPV











Also note my needle starts flickering wildly beyond 8 bar.

I'll stick the group pressure gauge on at some point tomorrow and double check.


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## DavecUK

Isn't it great how coffee machine technology loves me. As a mate once said, you're machines just say "is that OK for you sir and salute"


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## Rob1

6 second ramp up vs 14 seconds....seems like a big difference to be attributed entirely to the opv but there's an easy way to find out.

or maybe I can just get a smaller gicleur and keep the opv.


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## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> 6 second ramp up vs 14 seconds....seems like a big difference to be attributed entirely to the opv but there's an easy way to find out.
> 
> or maybe I can just get a smaller gicleur and keep the opv.


I will ask if there have been any changes, but I can't think of any. I also can't see why the expansion valve would make a difference *unless* there is some sort of restricted flow on the new larger valve....which I find unlikely.


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## Rob1

I'm sure you said in the other thread that the pump is modified in some way to give it that slow ramp up. Maybe I got one that was stock.

I removed the mushrooms today and they and the groups are the same (on both the machines I have). I was surprised by the amount of grime on both (especially the unused one). I guess that's oils and stuff from manufacturing that has stuck to it. There was even a circular shard of metal on the unused mushroom.


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## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> I'm sure you said in the other thread that the pump is modified in some way to give it that slow ramp up. Maybe I got one that was stock.
> 
> I removed the mushrooms today and they and the groups are the same (on both the machines I have). I was surprised by the amount of grime on both (especially the unused one). I guess that's oils and stuff from manufacturing that has stuck to it. There was even a circular shard of metal on the unused mushroom.


All new machines have to be well flushed. It's why I dislike testing new machines, so much work to flush em out enough so they taste right. Bits of metal are not uncommon in machines, shards don't tend to make it into the coffee of course because they are stopped by the Gicleur (almost always) or the shower screen. I have asked ACS to see if they can do anything about more thorough cleaning of boilers, but we would be talking a specialized cleaning bath with agitators here. Something I guess they could custom make. It still won't completely stop new machine taste...that can take months or even a year to go if you don't have water that forms any scale at all.

Pump will be the same one I have and my gauge vibrates now, it didn't for ages then started vibrating. It's not a biggie, because eventually that gauge will go and be replaced by a group gauge only long term. Short term a longer capilliary tube may well stop it, much longer.


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## Paolo_Cortese

Sorry if i reply only now, the difference in how fast the ramp is depend of the qty of the water in the circuit, the opv not affect anything because it start to work once the max pressure is reached. If you look closer to the video you will see that the Dave's machine have a much residual pressure before he started the shot, it means that there was much air in the circuit than your machine that means that the pump have to fill the empty space before rise the pressure. Also The manometer used from Dave is frictioned and not affected from the vibration that start from the pump. There are no other modifications on the machines, all the hydraulic parts used on your machine are the same except the OPV.



Rob1 said:


> My machine with the new OPV


----------



## Rob1

The espresso gods seem to have heard my prayers because the ramp up is now slower (9.5 seconds). I was previously flushing the group and for the two doubles I've had today I skipped the step.

I've been drinking a lot of milk based drinks lately because the coffee I've had is just suited to it. With the new Rave espresso blend I've given a couple of straight espressos a try and today I noticed the temperature seems on the low side. I pulled some water into a cup and the temp probe hit 65c before declining so I'm guessing the water was about 70-75c hitting the cup which was preheated with water just off boiling. Anyone know what temperature it should be approximately? It's a difficult thing to measure accurately without a group thermometer or a very rapidly responding thermometer. PID is set to 93c and all of the settings through the advanced menu are as recommended.

Espresso lacks body and tastes a little weak 40 seconds 40g from 18g. I did try espressos with the extra dark CC bean and my own roast but two problems: the cc bean was getting old and the pull wasn't great, and my roast was two days old. I think the expobar had water hitting the cup at about 80c, or 75c and slowly declining on the thermometer. I could just decrease the offset but I haven't checked the expobar's accuracy either.

I'm tempted to set it to 100c and let the group heat up to temperature before testing to see if it boils out of the group.


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## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> The espresso gods seem to have heard my prayers because the ramp up is now slower (9.5 seconds). I was previously flushing the group and for the two doubles I've had today I skipped the step.
> 
> I've been drinking a lot of milk based drinks lately because the coffee I've had is just suited to it. With the new Rave espresso blend I've given a couple of straight espressos a try and today I noticed the temperature seems on the low side. I pulled some water into a cup and the temp probe hit 65c before declining so I'm guessing the water was about 70-75c hitting the cup which was preheated with water just off boiling. Anyone know what temperature it should be approximately? It's a difficult thing to measure accurately without a group thermometer or a very rapidly responding thermometer. PID is set to 93c and all of the settings through the advanced menu are as recommended.
> 
> Espresso lacks body and tastes a little weak 40 seconds 40g from 18g. I did try espressos with the extra dark CC bean and my own roast but two problems: the cc bean was getting old and the pull wasn't great, and my roast was two days old. I think the expobar had water hitting the cup at about 80c, or 75c and slowly declining on the thermometer. I could just decrease the offset but I haven't checked the expobar's accuracy either.
> 
> I'm tempted to set it to 100c and let the group heat up to temperature before testing to see if it boils out of the group.


If you have all the settings as described, there's no way the water is not coming out of the group at very close to or exactly at the temp set on the PID. I did days and days of temperature testing on the Mini, believe me it's temperatures are right, if set as I recommend.. I think you should double check your settings.If you don't have a device like mine or something similar to a scace II you won't be able to accurately measure temperatures. However set it up to 100C or 101 and give it a decent warm up if off from cold, e.g. 1 hour, or wait 15 minutes or so after upping the temp, then watch it boil of the group.

However double check your settings first and post them on the thread.

*P.S Water dropping through open air into a cup will cool dramatically on it's way, then the cup absorbs heat and the probe you have used may well have some thermal lag. Even if you boil a kettle, once it's boiled by the time you can measure the temperature it's already dropped a few degrees! This is another test you can do...boil a kettle, pour 40-60 ml of water into the same cup as you pulled from the machine, from the same height and see what the temperature is.. with 100C water dropping into the cup.*


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## Rob1

I like the last idea. Settings are definitely as in the manual (double checked before posting). Offset is 15c. I could just be used to the expobar pulling shots hotter because of how I calibrated it.


----------



## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> I like the last idea. Settings are definitely as in the manual (double checked before posting). Offset is 15c. I could just be used to the expobar pulling shots hotter because of how I calibrated it.


Could well be...


----------



## DavecUK

Guys just an update. The thread has been closely followed and issues have been taken on board. The Beta field test can be considered over and the final retail machine has been specced and one produced. I can't give you the details yet of the changes, but ACS would like to thank you all for the feedback. I can say that many things were not taken on board simply because of the implications for either design or cost. It's imperative they keep the cost of this machine sensible. I personally would like to see a time when HX machines don't exist and the base level machine is a dual boiler....Perhaps the minima will be the beginning of something I feel should happen. It was the main reason I got interested in Dual boilers more than 15 years ago.


----------



## moots

Thanks @DavecUK; for your help arranging the beta and time helping us out, @Paolo_Cortese; for ditto and creating the opportunity to take part, and props to the other beta testers @Rob1, @Hasi;, @Rakesh;, @ryan111 (and others who pitched in) for sharing so much useful info and tips.

It's been really interesting moving as a realative noob from a single boiler Gaggia Classic to a dual boiler Minima, and machine with more steam than the Flying Scotsman.

Looking forward to (whenever) seeing what mods made it into the production model 

M


----------



## ryan111

I have had my first issue that has stopped me making coffee today. Had a coffee last night as usual with no issues. the machine turned off (on its timer) and turned back on this morning (on its timer). However when I got up to make a coffee the brew boiler temperature on the display read 117, service boiler was 125 as usual. More investigation has shown that the service boiler was running as usual but the brew boiler was not on at all (temperature of the water was the same as the water tank). I have turned it on and off, pressed on the limit stats (I don't think they had tripped), reset the PID and restored all factor settings. That didn't seem to fix it so I turned it off and left it to cool down. When I turned it back on (15 minutes later) the brew boiler showed the correct temp (~30) and came up to temperature as normal.

I am not sure what fixed it or what caused it, although this is the machine that was bent in transit so there may be unseen damage


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> Guys just an update. The thread has been closely followed and issues have been taken on board. The Beta field test can be considered over and the final retail machine has been specced and one produced. I can't give you the details yet of the changes, but ACS would like to thank you all for the feedback. I can say that many things were not taken on board simply because of the implications for either design or cost. It's imperative they keep the cost of this machine sensible. I personally would like to see a time when HX machines don't exist and the base level machine is a dual boiler....Perhaps the minima will be the beginning of something I feel should happen. It was the main reason I got interested in Dual boilers more than 15 years ago.


Thank you @DavecUK and @Paolo_Cortese and everyone working in the background of this here Minima project for the opportunity to take part, your open mindedness, the great discussions and information so far!

Thank you @Glenn for providing the platform, it's wonderful to see things happen these days in ways that wouldn't have been possible without internet communities. Especially around here in our lively, helpful and knowing atmosphere (of course this includes my fellow testers but also everybody reading and commenting along) it has been my greatest pleasure to participate  

Now I'm as curious as can be to seeing the Minima's launch and all tweaks that made it into the production model! Hope to stay in touch and maybe meet everyvody involved at the factory (hint hint )


----------



## ryan111

I have had my first issue that has stopped me making coffee today. Had a coffee last night as usual with no issues. the machine turned off (on its timer) and turned back on this morning (on its timer). However when I got up to make a coffee the brew boiler temperature on the display read 117, service boiler was 125 as usual. More investigation has shown that the service boiler was running as usual but the brew boiler was not on at all (temperature of the water was the same as the water tank). I have turned it on and off, pressed on the limit stats (I don't think they had tripped), reset the PID and restored all factor settings. That didn't seem to fix it so I turned it off and left it to cool down. When I turned it back on (15 minutes later) the brew boiler showed the correct temp (~30) and came up to temperature as normal.

I am not sure what fixed it or what caused it, although this is the machine that was bent in transit so there may be unseen damage


----------



## DavecUK

ryan111 said:


> I have had my first issue that has stopped me making coffee today. Had a coffee last night as usual with no issues. the machine turned off (on its timer) and turned back on this morning (on its timer). However when I got up to make a coffee the brew boiler temperature on the display read 117, service boiler was 125 as usual. More investigation has shown that the service boiler was running as usual but the brew boiler was not on at all (temperature of the water was the same as the water tank). I have turned it on and off, pressed on the limit stats (I don't think they had tripped), reset the PID and restored all factor settings. That didn't seem to fix it so I turned it off and left it to cool down. When I turned it back on (15 minutes later) the brew boiler showed the correct temp (~30) and came up to temperature as normal.
> 
> I am not sure what fixed it or what caused it, although this is the machine that was bent in transit so there may be unseen damage


Could be a loose wire or a defective temperature sensor?


----------



## ryan111

DavecUK said:


> Could be a loose wire or a defective temperature sensor?


That's what I thought too, I will keep an eye on it if it happens again.

It may also be related to the other issue I have had with the brew boiler cooling after turning off the service boiler during the day, which could point to a temp sensor issue.


----------



## DavecUK

ryan111 said:


> That's what I thought too, I will keep an eye on it if it happens again.
> 
> It may also be related to the other issue I have had with the brew boiler cooling after turning off the service boiler during the day, which could point to a temp sensor issue.


Or even something as simple as a dodgy switch?


----------



## ryan111

DavecUK said:


> Or even something as simple as a dodgy switch?


After being fine for most of the day today it showed up again. However this time I also got an intermittent A2 error. So it is the brew temp sensor


----------



## DavecUK

ryan111 said:


> After being fine for most of the day today it showed up again. However this time I also got an intermittent A2 error. So it is the brew temp sensor


There you go, probably a loose connector...more likely than an actual dodgy sensor. Trace the wires down from the sensor at fault and they go into a little connector and then a little box, if I remember rightly....I hope you got small hands, long finger and some sharp long side cutters. I cursed Paolo or his workers for cable tying it in so inconveniently. Check the connector halfway down (if you have one) and check the connection to the box.


----------



## ryan111

DavecUK said:


> There you go, probably a loose connector...more likely than an actual dodgy sensor. Trace the wires down from the sensor at fault and they go into a little connector and then a little box, if I remember rightly....I hope you got small hands, long finger and some sharp long side cutters. I cursed Paolo or his workers for cable tying it in so inconveniently. Check the connector halfway down (if you have one) and check the connection to the box.


I just opened it up and disconnected and reconnected it at the box it terminates into, however it disappears in between and underneath the two boilers and I couldn't extract the cable without pulling the machine apart some more, there is a lot of extra cable and i didn't realise there was another little connector. I will have to have another go tomorrow.

To make sure I understand, there is a connector somewhere between where they enter the top of the boilers and the small electrical box on the left hand side of the machine (if looking at the machine from the front)?


----------



## DavecUK

ryan111 said:


> I just opened it up and disconnected and reconnected it at the box it terminates into, however it disappears in between and underneath the two boilers and I couldn't extract the cable without pulling the machine apart some more, there is a lot of extra cable and i didn't realise there was another little connector. I will have to have another go tomorrow.
> 
> To make sure I understand, there is a connector somewhere between where they enter the top of the boilers and the small electrical box on the left hand side of the machine (if looking at the machine from the front)?


might be might not, such is the nature of Betas. I'm looking at a mental photo of mine and I can see a connector there in amongst the fold of wires bundled up and cable tied...they may have not done that when they wired yours which would have been a later build and after I moaned. Here is photo, note the blue arrows...you may have these you may not and they may or may not be in the same positions...you get the general idea though.


----------



## ryan111

DavecUK said:


> might be might not, such is the nature of Betas. I'm looking at a mental photo of mine and I can see a connector there in amongst the fold of wires bundled up and cable tied...they may have not done that when they wired yours which would have been a later build and after I moaned. Here is photo, note the blue arrows...you may have these you may not and they may or may not be in the same positions...you get the general idea though.


The cabling is quite different on mine, it is a thinner wire, and judging by the amount of extra cable bundled up it wont have any joins. How do I remove the temperature sensor from the top of the boiler?


----------



## DavecUK

ryan111 said:


> The cabling is quite different on mine, it is a thinner wire, and judging by the amount of extra cable bundled up it wont have any joins. How do I remove the temperature sensor from the top of the boiler?


Your not gonna like it:

1. Undo all the cable ties, disconnect the sensor and then undo it with an open ended spanner.. I've already told them a while ago, NOT to cable tie the temperature sensors, but there is something in the DNA of every Italian espresso machine builder that loves cable ties.

2. If you have enough wire, gently and carefully pre- wind the flex the correct way like and old aeroplane rubber band, then when you undo it, that will allow it to unwind out at the top and if your careul, without kinking the cable...try it you will see what I mean it's hard to explain. It's a bit of a hack, but if you have enough length before the cable tie it will get you out of trouble.

Those wires are 2 thin wires, the sensors are the same and you probably have connectors you cannot see. The only reason to remove the sensor would be to replace it, there's nothing repairable in there.* If I were replacing it,* I would wait for a replacement, cut the wires to the sensor and disconnect it at the box. Fit the replacement and then just put it straight to the box....I wouldn't try to unbundle the cables (unless I thought I could do it easily....hope you understand. The reason for waiting is to ensure the connectors are the same and that the wire isn't to short or going into a midpoint connector somewhere.

I am almost 100% certain it's a loose wire (not in the sensor housing but at a join).

Any chance you can take to high res and clear photos of the area,.


----------



## ryan111

DavecUK said:


> Your not gonna like it:
> 
> 1. Undo all the cable ties, disconnect the sensor and then undo it with an open ended spanner.. I've already told them a while ago, NOT to cable tie the temperature sensors, but there is something in the DNA of every Italian espresso machine builder that loves cable ties.
> 
> 2. If you have enough wire, gently and carefully pre- wind the flex the correct way like and old aeroplane rubber band, then when you undo it, that will allow it to unwind out at the top and if your careul, without kinking the cable...try it you will see what I mean it's hard to explain. It's a bit of a hack, but if you have enough length before the cable tie it will get you out of trouble.
> 
> Those wires are 2 thin wires, the sensors are the same and you probably have connectors you cannot see. The only reason to remove the sensor would be to replace it, there's nothing repairable in there.* If I were replacing it,* I would wait for a replacement, cut the wires to the sensor and disconnect it at the box. Fit the replacement and then just put it straight to the box....I wouldn't try to unbundle the cables (unless I thought I could do it easily....hope you understand. The reason for waiting is to ensure the connectors are the same and that the wire isn't to short or going into a midpoint connector somewhere.
> 
> I am almost 100% certain it's a loose wire (not in the sensor housing but at a join).
> 
> Any chance you can take to high res and clear photos of the area,.


I have enough wire to run it to the roof and back. I don't think I will take it out though. Because of the bent frame in multiple places Paolo is sending out a replacement machine once it is built. I have got accustom to having the machine here and didn't want to go without.

There is two wires, made of thinner wire than the one in yours, it looks like they come together with the cable from the other boiler temp sensor before going into the electronics box with a 4 pin flat connector (which I have taken out and put back in). The cable are only bundled with themselves, i.e. excess cable has been bundled together, they don't appear to be bundled with any other cables anywhere they run.

I will open it up again tomorrow when it is cold and see if I can see a bit more, I will take some photos when I do that. Thanks

(edit - it wasn't a ribbon cable, just four wires together)


----------



## ryan111

DavecUK said:


> Your not gonna like it:
> 
> 1. Undo all the cable ties, disconnect the sensor and then undo it with an open ended spanner.. I've already told them a while ago, NOT to cable tie the temperature sensors, but there is something in the DNA of every Italian espresso machine builder that loves cable ties.
> 
> 2. If you have enough wire, gently and carefully pre- wind the flex the correct way like and old aeroplane rubber band, then when you undo it, that will allow it to unwind out at the top and if your careul, without kinking the cable...try it you will see what I mean it's hard to explain. It's a bit of a hack, but if you have enough length before the cable tie it will get you out of trouble.
> 
> Those wires are 2 thin wires, the sensors are the same and you probably have connectors you cannot see. The only reason to remove the sensor would be to replace it, there's nothing repairable in there.* If I were replacing it,* I would wait for a replacement, cut the wires to the sensor and disconnect it at the box. Fit the replacement and then just put it straight to the box....I wouldn't try to unbundle the cables (unless I thought I could do it easily....hope you understand. The reason for waiting is to ensure the connectors are the same and that the wire isn't to short or going into a midpoint connector somewhere.
> 
> I am almost 100% certain it's a loose wire (not in the sensor housing but at a join).
> 
> Any chance you can take to high res and clear photos of the area,.


I opened it up and got to where the temp probs go into the lower box (which I hadn't seen before). All looked fine so I swapped the probs around to see if it would show the temp as off on the steam boiler, it does, so it looks like it is between the probe and the plug to the probe. The extra wire was cable tied very tightly together so I undid that as I have seen tight cable ties affect sensors before and that didn't help, plug of the probe looks good. I think I am out of ideas, my next step would be to change the probe. Any ideas?

It's still open, so I can take photos, just let me know what you want to see


----------



## Paolo_Cortese

ryan111 said:


> I opened it up and got to where the temp probs go into the lower box (which I hadn't seen before). All looked fine so I swapped the probs around to see if it would show the temp as off on the steam boiler, it does, so it looks like it is between the probe and the plug to the probe. The extra wire was cable tied very tightly together so I undid that as I have seen tight cable ties affect sensors before and that didn't help, plug of the probe looks good. I think I am out of ideas, my next step would be to change the probe. Any ideas?
> 
> It's still open, so I can take photos, just let me know what you want to see


If you will disconnect the sensor the error that pop up is A1 or still A2? A2 means that there is a circuit break somewhere else, A1 simply disconnected. Let me know.


----------



## ryan111

Paolo_Cortese said:


> If you will disconnect the sensor the error that pop up is A1 or still A2? A2 means that there is a circuit break somewhere else, A1 simply disconnected. Let me know.


I will check tonight. But since the error changed from brew boiler to steam boiler when I changed the probe plugs around, wouldn't that indicate it would be A1? because the fault is wherever I plug the brew boiler temp probe into.


----------



## ryan111

Paolo_Cortese said:


> If you will disconnect the sensor the error that pop up is A1 or still A2? A2 means that there is a circuit break somewhere else, A1 simply disconnected. Let me know.


Just checked, when disconnected there is the A1 error


----------



## Hasi

ryan111 said:


> Just checked, when disconnected there is the A1 error


If wires are being overly stretched or bent they might tear internally and therefore disconnect invisibly. Would you have a multi-meter at hand?


----------



## ryan111

Hasi said:


> If wires are being overly stretched or bent they might tear internally and therefore disconnect invisibly. Would you have a multi-meter at hand?


Had all the tools back in Australia, I have hardly anything here, however if it was broken completely I suspect it would be giving me the A1 code, but some slight damage which is changing the resistance would be enough cause it to go a bit off (when it is not giving the A2 code, it is sometimes reading 135 degrees + when it is cold.)

I switched over the probes so I can make espresso and black coffee now


----------



## Hasi

Tripped the circuit breaker again this morning... totally no clue why. Happened two times, now it's all good again.

Let's see how it behaves once placed in the roastery... in some weeks time!


----------



## Hasi

Other than that, fun fact: it seems to steam better with the jug in my left hand, so with the steam arm also pointing to the brew group.


----------



## Rob1

My last shot protection kicks in at about 550ml. There's enough water to fully submerge an espresso cup in there (which I've accidentally tested twice). The inlet tube lies flat across the bottom of the tank so I'm thinking of getting a small weight of 200 or 300g to stick on top of the tank. I want LSP to kick in when the water is low as it means the water in the tank is fresher when it's refilled (compared to 500+ ml of old water mixed with about 1.5l of fresh water). I'd love it if LSP didn't turn off the heating elements. It's a pain when I get up in the morning and go to make coffee and find the display tells me I need more water even though I've got over 500ml left in the tank and the machine isn't even up to temperature. I usually remember to turn the machine on at night to trigger the service boiler refill after it's cooled down so I can see if LSP kicks in but I've forgotten in the past and I'm sure I will again.


----------



## Hasi

Speaking of LSP: lately I pulled an evening shot, rinsed cleaned and put it on timer switch (plug type) for the next day. Everything looked fine when turning it off. The next morning the machine would not heat up for the fill level control had kicked in over night.

Happened two times so far. No clue as to why it didn't give me an H2O warning in the evening...?

I know Beta phase is over, however, this might still be an important thing to track down - or give buyers a heads-up via the manual.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Hasi said:


> Speaking of LSP: lately I pulled an evening shot, rinsed cleaned and put it on timer switch (plug type) for the next day. Everything looked fine when turning it off. The next morning the machine would not heat up for the fill level control had kicked in over night.
> 
> Happened two times so far. No clue as to why it didn't give me an H2O warning in the evening...?
> 
> I know Beta phase is over, however, this might still be an important thing to track down - or give buyers a heads-up via the manual.


Hasi, could it have been the water had expanded when warm and, when cooled down in the evening was below level?

In any case, I had the habit of every 3 days (depending on consumption) to check the reservoir level.


----------



## Hasi

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Hasi, could it have been the water had expanded when warm and, when cooled down in the evening was below level?
> 
> In any case, I had the habit of every 3 days (depending on consumption) to check the reservoir level.


It goes by weight on the minima, there's a sheet metal spring and a contact breaker switch underneath reservoir.

However, I've been thinking heat effects as well: when machine is warm, metal bends slightly easier. As I still operate it in my workshop, it drops from estimated 40C to about 16-17C over night. Being on the very brink of LSP, it could be just this temp difference that's enough to have an impact.


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## DavecUK

More likely it autofilled when it first came on in the morning when the water in the service boiler contracted...very common.


----------



## Hasi

With steam taking up more space than water, wouldn't internal boiler pressure work against its expansion in the first place?

But yes of course, I wasn't there to know what the Minima really did, so a refill upon start-up is a likely possibility as well.


----------



## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> With steam taking up more space than water, wouldn't internal boiler pressure work against its expansion in the first place?
> 
> But yes of course, I wasn't there to know what the Minima really did, so a refill upon start-up is a likely possibility as well.



At the pressures in a service boiler, water expands around 8-9% on heating or for a typical boiler fill level in a 2.3 litre boiler approx 125ml.

Steam Pressure at 1.4 bar can only compress water by about 0.004%


So when the boiler cools, the level drops by around 125ml. This is why espresso machines often autofill in the morning when they are first switched on.


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## Hasi

Thx Dave, that makes some sense


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## ryan111

Something else I have noticed. since having the steam boiler off there has been some water leaking from somewhere. I took the top off and I can see that water is leaking from the presure release valve at top of the steam boiler (hope I have got the name right). At a guess it looks like the steam pressure would normally hold the valve closed, but when it is cold it is open and allow some water to leak out. I have drained some water from the boiler and it appears to have stopped.


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## DavecUK

No water should leak out of the service boiler when the service boiler is off? The only way this could happen is if the service boiler was slowly filling up due to a faulty autofill solenoid. Or, if the boiler fill level is far to high for some reason (probe wire fault, scale erc..) then the boiler could be very full and if you turn the heating element on, long before steam forms, water reaches it's maximum expansion level at about 70 or 80C, if the level was super high this could expand out the vacuum breaker.

I would prefer to see a photo with the valve indicated, just to be sure you are identifying the correct one....the pressure release valve is always closed, the Vacuum breaker is held closed by steam pressure and opens when the boiler is cool. So You are describing 2 different valves simultaneously...If you can post a Video next time it leaks it would also be super helpful.

*Also if this is the machine being replaced, I would not muck about with it too much...ACS can always check it for an Autofill fault.*


----------



## ryan111

DavecUK said:


> No water should leak out of the service boiler when the service boiler is off? The only way this could happen is if the service boiler was slowly filling up due to a faulty autofill solenoid. Or, if the boiler fill level is far to high for some reason (probe wire fault, scale erc..) then the boiler could be very full and if you turn the heating element on, long before steam forms, water reaches it's maximum expansion level at about 70 or 80C, if the level was super high this could expand out the vacuum breaker.
> 
> I would prefer to see a photo with the valve indicated, just to be sure you are identifying the correct one....the pressure release valve is always closed, the Vacuum breaker is held closed by steam pressure and opens when the boiler is cool. So You are describing 2 different valves simultaneously...If you can post a Video next time it leaks it would also be super helpful.
> 
> *Also if this is the machine being replaced, I would not muck about with it too much...ACS can always check it for an Autofill fault.*


It sounds like I am talking about the vacuum breaker, it is the bit which if you press on it when it is running as normal steam comes out. I will take a video when it starts happening again. Let me know if you still want a photo.

I am only looking to identify the cause at the moment. It was leaking onto the bench so it needed some investigation.


----------



## DavecUK

Sure, it's just when it goes back to ACS it will be useful for them to see the fault and find out why it happened, swarf, or solenoid fault etc..


----------



## ncrc51

I have a US spec Minima. It arrived in near perfect condition 6+ weeks ago. Accessories were missing and I was in the middle of a move so it was fine to wait for the missing parts. I now have the basic accessories that come with the unit. I've ordered and received a bottomless portafilter and have started pulling shots with the Minima. I've also ordered and am waiting on a distribution tool and puck style tamper (the kit contained a plastic tamper), and 18 gram precision basket. My initial impressions are very positive and expect even better results with improved accessories. I'm unsure if ACS has any plans to import the Minima into the US. Sine the beta testing phase is over, is there any interest in continuing this thread?


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## Hasi

Keep posting mate!

...at least I am interested


----------



## ncrc51

So some initial observations with the Minima. Note I've at this a few years but this is my first E61 machine. I've had my Mini Vivaldi for something over 5 years so it's well sorted. The accessories I received included a plastic tamper and the one and two spout portafilters. The baskets on both were tapered which surprised me with the double. I've order and received a bottomless portafilter. I've ordered and not received a tamper, distribution tool and 18 gram precision basket.

So here goes:

I think it's quite lovely and I like the design, especially (and rather obviously) if space is a consideration.

It's noisy like an vibratory pump machine. Perhaps a little louder than the Vivaldi but not by a lot.

At this point requires a much finer grind than the Vivaldi but really hard to get a good distribution and tamp without better tools.

Pucks are wetter than I expected.

Lots of spritzing when pulling a shot. This was a very rare problem with the Mini Vivaldi and I hope is related to the basket and tamper.

Steam volume and pressure is about as good as the Vivaldi when it's set for 15 amps. When the Vivaldi is operating on a 20 amp circuit it has a little better steam performance. I expected more but is certainly adequate and recovery is reasonably fast. This may be due to the US 110 V. specification. Again, adequate for my needs, but not sure it would steam enough milk for two lattes at a time.

The shots are noticeably smoother than the Vivaldi.

I'm very happy with it and hope to address the "problems" when I get some better kit to compliment the machine.


----------



## Hasi

Today saw the Minima break mains circuit again. Took me a few minutes to get closer to the bottom of the problem.

First I looked for traces of water underneath machine and on its base where the drip tray rests on (nothing there). Then I tilted her backwards and looked again (very little water came out underneath front/centre).

Next thing: tried to restart only with brew boiler on - was a sure shot last time but now it tripped the breaker again.

Then: tried to restart her with pump on (maybe somehow it overfilled the brew boiler?) - no luck either.

When I let off some service boiler pressure through opening water tap until it would stop flowing, it finally went back on without further issues.

Now, would there be any electrical component inside the service boiler which could be negatively affected by an overpressure situation? @DavecUK ?


----------



## DavecUK

Nothing that could cause a problem, unless the service boiler is overfilling, water is coming out of a vacuum breaker or safety valve and affecting the electrical contacts on the limit stat (top of boiler), or on the base of the boiler. Overfilling could be for a number of reasons..."if" it is actually overfilling...it may not be.

When you say break circuit, do you mean RCD, or breaker? The first is earth leakage, the second is overcurrent?

P.S. No water should come from inside machine when tilted???


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> Nothing that could cause a problem, unless the service boiler is overfilling, water is coming out of a vacuum breaker or safety valve and affecting the electrical contacts on the limit stat (top of boiler), or on the base of the boiler. Overfilling could be for a number of reasons..."if" it is actually overfilling...it may not be.
> 
> When you say break circuit, do you mean RCD, or breaker? The first is earth leakage, the second is overcurrent?
> 
> P.S. No water should come from inside machine when tilted???


Thanks Dave!

Yea deffo no water should be coming out... I need to open the case again and see whether I can trace back to its origin. Will do tomorrow hopefully!

It trips the RCD, I believe there's something close to the base that links to earth when wet. So actually two issues then... leak and live wire?


----------



## Rob1

ncrc51 said:


> ...
> 
> At this point requires a much finer grind than the Vivaldi but really hard to get a good distribution and tamp without better tools.
> 
> Pucks are wetter than I expected....
> 
> Lots of spritzing when pulling a shot. This was a very rare problem with the Mini Vivaldi and I hope is related to the basket and tamper.
> 
> Steam volume and pressure is about as good as the Vivaldi when it's set for 15 amps. When the Vivaldi is operating on a 20 amp circuit it has a little better steam performance. I expected more but is certainly adequate and recovery is reasonably fast. This may be due to the US 110 V. specification. Again, adequate for my needs, but not sure it would steam enough milk for two lattes at a time.


I wouldn't be so quick to blame the baskets for spritzing, more likely bad distribution or tamping if the tamper doesn't fit (I assume you have a good one that will fit and aren't using the plastic thing). Never really understood the need for 'tools' for distribution either when you can just tap the basket with your hand to get the job done, unless multiple people are using it and you want consistency between users?

I'm really surprised by the last point as mine steams enough milk for two lattes in about 40 seconds. Have you gone into the advanced settings to make sure the steam boiler pid is set to respond to temperature changes instantly? You could well be right about the US spec.


----------



## ncrc51

Rob, I suspect you are correct on all counts. I found the baskets that came in the accessory pack to be shaped and sized differently than what I was accustomed to. I thought an 18g dose was about right and that dose didn't appear to fit "properly" in the double basket. I ordered and received a bottomless portafilter with a triple basket that was really big. So the IMS basket appears just right and with it I'm experiencing very little spritzing. I had ordered a decent tamper and distribution tool and they were lost in shipment, so I'm still using the plastic tamper packaged with the machine and it's definitely not helping. A tamper should be here in the next few days. I think I was perhaps venting too much steam and the boiler pressure was droping pretty quickly. Now I'm paying more attention and the boiler is keeping up with demand and the foam is better. A lot of this may be the learning curve coming from the Mini Vivaldi to an E61 machine. I do suspect the US spec boiler may not be quite a powerful, but absolutely more than adequate.

I love Minima and feel very lucky to have it.


----------



## ncrc51

So a reasonable tamper arrived from Ebay with the expected improved results. I have a distribution tool and "better" tamper on order, but could be a while before they arrive. Also got in the queue for a Niche in February. I'm a bit partial to conicals and single dosing and based on all the feedback on the Minima I'm quite sure that will be an improvement in the cup and work flow.


----------



## Hasi

Hasi said:


> Thanks Dave!
> 
> Yea deffo no water should be coming out... I need to open the case again and see whether I can trace back to its origin. Will do tomorrow hopefully!
> 
> It trips the RCD, I believe there's something close to the base that links to earth when wet. So actually two issues then... leak and live wire?


Oh finally!

Down in the basement, stripping the Minima as far as possible: cup warmer, rear case, reservoir housing gone. Armed with a flashlight, searching for clues...

but nothing there. No water marks anywhere inside.

What I did though:

- lower service boiler terminals slightly bent upwards (a few mm away from chassis)

- re-positioned a loose isolator (connecting brown wire from pump)

- minimised hole behind 3-way valve using duct tape

- closed gap between base plate and front panel, again using duct tape 










Maybe not award-winningly professional execution, but sufficient as a temporary solution. If it works out fine from now on, I'll refine it 

@DavecUK any multimeter checks you would recommend before I put her back together?


----------



## Hasi

Put her back into operation, let's see... (fingers crossed!)


----------



## gus6464

Hi everyone I'm from the US but have been very intrigued about the Minima and read both threads and watched Dave's videos on it.

Trying to find out who is going to carry the Minima in the US I called 3 big online retailers who carry the Vesuvius and I was told by all 3 that they won't be bringing it here. When I asked for the reason they all said that they weren't impressed with the test units they were sent.

I am beginning to wonder if they are just using that excuse to not carry it because they don't want to undercut their other products?


----------



## Paolo_Cortese

gus6464 said:


> Hi everyone I'm from the US but have been very intrigued about the Minima and read both threads and watched Dave's videos on it.
> 
> Trying to find out who is going to carry the Minima in the US I called 3 big online retailers who carry the Vesuvius and I was told by all 3 that they won't be bringing it here. When I asked for the reason they all said that they weren't impressed with the test units they were sent.
> 
> I am beginning to wonder if they are just using that excuse to not carry it because they don't want to undercut their other products?


Hi Gus

you can contact Jim at 1st line equipment, he will stock our Minima in a few weeks.

Paolo


----------



## gus6464

Paolo_Cortese said:


> Hi Gus
> 
> you can contact Jim at 1st line equipment, he will stock our Minima in a few weeks.
> 
> Paolo


Hi Paolo

That's odd because 1st line was the first vendor I contacted that told me they weren't going to carry it.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese

gus6464 said:


> Hi Paolo
> 
> That's odd because 1st line was the first vendor I contacted that told me they weren't going to carry it.


Please call today and ask for it. We have finalized the first order last weekend during a trade show in Italy.


----------



## Jony

@Paolo_Cortese you have a message from me.


----------



## Greenpotterer

Any news on a stockist in the UK?


----------



## Vollbart

Coffee italia appear to be stocking it


----------



## Jony

Greenpotterer said:


> Any news on a stockist in the UK?


I think Bella Barista are stocking them


----------



## Fez

Jony said:


> I think Bella Barista are stocking them


Just had an email back from them saying they won't be stocking it


----------



## Jony

You could try direct then. if not I am not sure I think davec may know


----------



## Ted_Kent

Greenpotterer said:


> Any news on a stockist in the UK?


Pre orders are up on the Bella Barista page now, £70 off for the first 6 machines.


----------



## Fez

Ted_Kent said:


> Pre orders are up on the Bella Barista page now, £70 off for the first 6 machines.


Yes they have just replied to me stating that they will be selling them. No word on release date yet though.

Personally I've gone off the idea of one, need a londinium in my life


----------



## Hasi

Fez said:


> Yes they have just replied to me stating that they will be selling them. No word on release date yet though.
> 
> Personally I've gone off the idea of one, need a londinium in my life


Guess you wouldn't regret either decision


----------



## Rob1

I'm hoping they release a basic pressure profiling needle valve and paddle cap for the mushroom. I might try to have one made if not.


----------



## Hasi

Rob1 said:


> I'm hoping they release a basic pressure profiling needle valve and paddle cap for the mushroom. I might try to have one made if not.


why would one need that?


----------



## Rob1

...to do some form of pressure/flow profiling.


----------



## Hasi

Rob1 said:


> ...to do some form of pressure/flow profiling.


Have you been doing this before?


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## Rob1

Not on a commercial machine. Why?


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## Hasi

Rob1 said:


> Not on a commercial machine. Why?


I wouldn't consider the Minima a commercial machine (despite me using one for commercial purposes ).

Just asking to get to the bottom of your expectations... what do you hope to improve by adding this ability to the Minima?

It already has a really slow ramp rate, that covers around 90% of the time I pre-infuse on my Rocket. When it starts extracting,

it takes another 10 seconds to reach full flow. Usually pull a 18in/35-38out in 35-40 seconds (depending on bean) for a very smooth and clean extraction. Just my personal opinion, I wouldn't ask for more in this little machiney.


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## Rob1

By commercial I meant E61. I've used a Pavoni in the past. I hope to improve control over pressure. Mine doesn't ramp up particularly slowly, very much like a standard E61. I haven't installed the group pressure gauge yet so maybe I'll see something different on that. Even so it would be nice to have control over the course of the extraction.


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## hotmetal

That'd be the Vesuvius then, or a Bianca.

___

Eat, drink and be merry


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## Rob1

Yes, those two machines come with pressure profiling ability in their stock form, with the Vesuvius offering far more repeatability if not also control. With a vibe pump you've got the option of using PWM based control, or you can add a needle valve after the expansion valve which handily sits at the very top of the case in the Minima. Adding on top of the group requires the bolt to be drilled and a needle to be manufactured, adding after the expansion valve/opv allows you to just use a standard plumbing part. You could use it to flow profile through a shot or decrease/increase flow rate as you would increase/decrease pressure using the expansion valve.


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## Pliers

Is the Minima fitted with compression or non compression type steam and hot water valves?


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## DavecUK

Pliers said:


> Is the Minima fitted with compression or non compression type steam and hot water valves?


Compression on the Betas and I made no recommendation for non compression ones. Reliable and cheaper if you're not heavy handed.


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## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> Compression on the Betas and I made no recommendation for non compression ones. Reliable and cheaper if you're not heavy handed.


Sorry for my ignorance here. What's the difference between them? Are compression the "standard" type and non-compression those which have a spring and come with fancy machines?


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## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Sorry for my ignorance here. What's the difference between them? Are compression the "standard" type and non-compression those which have a spring and come with fancy machines?


Sort of, there isn't a huge difference in price, but every little helps and the standard ones can actually be a little more reliable if people are not heavy handed.


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## gus6464

So it looks like the final production machine got rid of the dual pressure gauge on the body and now it has a single gauge right on the grouphead?

Based on the Bella barista description and pics.


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## MediumRoastSteam

gus6464 said:


> So it looks like the final production machine got rid of the dual pressure gauge on the body and now it has a single gauge right on the grouphead?
> 
> Based on the Bella barista description and pics.


That's good. So one can set the temp of the service boiler using the PID, providing everything is fine, you really don't need a gauge for the steam boiler, and also can see the actual group pressure when pulling a shot, and not the pressure of the water after the OPV.

Well done ACS!


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## Hasi

gus6464 said:


> So it looks like the final production machine got rid of the dual pressure gauge on the body and now it has a single gauge right on the grouphead?
> 
> Based on the Bella barista description and pics.


True







yea that makes sense in terms of meaninful readouts.

And I believe it helps cutting costs a bit more. Usually them dual gauges are well over 30-40 quid before tax, whereas supplied Orman gauge amounts to some 10-15 maybe. That also comes in handy if the part would fail one day: cheaply and easily replaceable









@Paolo_Cortese : think I speak for all interested members, especially for all Beta testers, when I ask you to post a few insights into what you guys changed for the production model?

Or are we maybe gonna see a revised @DavecUK review at a later stage?

Thank you guys!


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## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> True
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yea that makes sense in terms of meaninful readouts.
> 
> And I believe it helps cutting costs a bit more. Usually them dual gauges are well over 30-40 quid before tax, whereas supplied Orman gauge amounts to some 10-15 maybe. That also comes in handy if the part would fail one day: cheaply and easily replaceable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Paolo_Cortese : think I speak for all interested members, especially for all Beta testers, when I ask you to post a few insights into what you guys changed for the production model?
> 
> Or are we maybe gonna see a revised @DavecUK review at a later stage?
> 
> Thank you guys!


I am hoping to get a machine soon to do an actual review of the production model. If it doesn't arrive soon I will have forgotten what was on the beta! I was responsible for loosing the dual gauge on the body. I it gives:


A cleaner look and easier to build

Service boiler temp shows on the Display anyway

It's more reliable as less piping and fittings

If the gauge fails changing a group one takes a few minutes

No pressure bounce, or false readings due to water expansion after the shot.

A reading directly at the group


It just made so much sense to not have it where gauges traditionally go....


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## Rob1

Just discovered the bottomless portafilter that comes with the Minima doesn't fit a 22g VST basket, making a third party one a necessity for anyone wanting triple ristrettos.


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## Vollbart

On the subject of bottomless portafilters, is there anything about the Minima group that will prevent a third party e61 one being compatible?

I'm purchasing a Minima and haven't found an ACS accessory stockist in the UK.


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## DavecUK

Vollbart said:


> On the subject of bottomless portafilters, is there anything about the Minima group that will prevent a third party e61 one being compatible?
> 
> I'm purchasing a Minima and haven't found an ACS accessory stockist in the UK.


No


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## hotmetal

Not all 'E61' portafilters have exactly the same lug thickness, although it's a minor point. They all fit. It's just that some might not lock in at exactly 6 o'clock. If that happens, change the gasket for a thicker/thinner Cafelat silicone rubber one and job's a good'un.

Or as Dave said. No.

___

Eat, drink and be merry


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## izzimg

Any Minima Beta testers interested in selling theirs in the UK? Is there a separate thread for that?


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## Hasi

After flushing the service boiler with fresh water I got an A4 error today. Oddly enough, it would appear above 85C.

Hitting the little black button on service boiler limit stat didn't solve the issue (as per User Manual V1.2).

@DavecUK is it normal that an A4 doesn't show at all times?

Are these thermostats somehow sensitive to pump vibrations?


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## DavecUK

These are the Minima Error Codes



"A1": Brew Boiler temperature probe not connected or short circuit


"A2": Brew Boiler temperature probe circuit break


"A3": Service Boiler temperature probe not connected or short circuit


"A4": Service Boiler temperature probe circuit break


"A7": filling time out


A7 is the one you might get when flushing the service boiler empty as it can take a while to fill and that one is non problematic, just switch machine on/off again. A4 means you either have a wire loose connected to a connector, the connector itself is loose, there is a break in the wire underneath the insulation, or there is a problem where the wire terminates into the thermal probe on top of the boiler.


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## Hasi

Yea, armed with my multimeter I'll strip all covers and trace wires, check connectors and terminals in a minute... needed to deep-clean up after my lunchtime muppetry and roast a few batches 

Cheers Dave, hopefully it's not a blown thermostat or probe...!


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## Hasi

Now...
















First thing I found was this burnt terminal cover at the Gicar unit. Turns out the connector was a bit loose and not all the way on. However this wire feeds the brew boiler... fixed it anyway and fired her up. Error gone!
Unplugged different cables: both NTC probes at Gicar socket, burnt power feed, service boiler limit stat. Checked resistance on all wires and sensors to/from/at service boiler. All good.

Finally, the error returned. It happened on a fully heated machine just when unplugging the service boiler limit stat black wire for a second time.









Maybe coincidence but t2 reading went crazy (from 125 to 137 to 150 to A4). It was persistent until I emptied service boiler and refilled with cold water. In the beginning A4 still showed, then 150 downwards. Suddenly it jumped from 143 to 72.
Reduced temp to 120C, now reading is between 150 and A4 at 1.3bar as soon as 120C is reached.

So my guess is a faulty NTC probe that kinda works at times. A4 error seems to appear above 150C reading (which might not be the actual boiler temp since pressure was never above 1.5bar).
Or maybe there's something wrong with the Gicar?


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## DavecUK

Sounds like the thermal sensor needs replacing for sure....Gicar will be fine.


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## ryan111

Hasi said:


> Now...
> 
> View attachment 29861
> 
> View attachment 29862
> 
> 
> First thing I found was this burnt terminal cover at the Gicar unit. Turns out the connector was a bit loose and not all the way on. However this wire feeds the brew boiler... fixed it anyway and fired her up. Error gone!
> Unplugged different cables: both NTC probes at Gicar socket, burnt power feed, service boiler limit stat. Checked resistance on all wires and sensors to/from/at service boiler. All good.
> 
> Finally, the error returned. It happened on a fully heated machine just when unplugging the service boiler limit stat black wire for a second time.
> 
> View attachment 29863
> 
> 
> Maybe coincidence but t2 reading went crazy (from 125 to 137 to 150 to A4). It was persistent until I emptied service boiler and refilled with cold water. In the beginning A4 still showed, then 150 downwards. Suddenly it jumped from 143 to 72.
> Reduced temp to 120C, now reading is between 150 and A4 at 1.3bar as soon as 120C is reached.
> 
> So my guess is a faulty NTC probe that kinda works at times. A4 error seems to appear above 150C reading (which might not be the actual boiler temp since pressure was never above 1.5bar).
> Or maybe there's something wrong with the Gicar?


 I had exactly this when my probe broke. To confirm you can switch the probes where they go into the controller then you should see t1 go crazy and t2 work.

I then also switched the whole probes over to allow me to make espresso and black coffee until I go the complete fix.


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## ncrc51

I'm experiencing an A4 message and no steam pressure on my US spec Minima. This after transporting it 1500 miles. It was properly packed but I suspect the service boiler temperature probe has failed. Appears to heat normally until around 230F then the readout jumps rapidly to an indicated 300 and A4 pops up. Where can I source the probe? I'm in Canada for the summer and would like to get the machine back on operation. A model number or other identifying information on the probe would be really helpful.


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## Paolo_Cortese

You can contact 1st line equipment, a standard Vesuvius probe fit the one on the minima and he should have in stock.


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## Paolo_Cortese

In any case we have found some problems with the sensors with white cable, the one with red wires no problem at all. Two different supplier.


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## Hasi

Paolo_Cortese said:


> In any case we have found some problems with the sensors with white cable, the one with red wires no problem at all. Two different supplier.


thank you for the information!
I'm seeing an A4 as well, coming out of the blue.
Machine hasn't been moved, only thing that I did was drain service boiler and instantly refill with fresh water.

PM sent!


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## Nelson Serrano

Hi There.

We run a coffee equipment store in Chile and wonder if we may have our hands on a Minima to decide a move on distribution it in our country.

Thanks!

Nelson


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## Hasi

Nelson Serrano said:


> Hi There.
> 
> We run a coffee equipment store in Chile and wonder if we may have our hands on a Minima to decide a move on distribution it in our country.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Nelson


 @Paolo_Cortese ?


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## ncrc51

Paolo_Cortese said:


> You can contact 1st line equipment, a standard Vesuvius probe fit the one on the minima and he should have in stock.


 Sorry for my delay in responding. Have been quite busy here. My problem occurred above 100C so I switched the probes between brew and steam and that solved the problem. I will order a Vesuvius probe to have on hand. Machine is performing well, certainly meeting all my expectations.


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## DavecUK

ncrc51 said:


> Sorry for my delay in responding. Have been quite busy here. My problem occurred above 100C so I switched the probes between brew and steam and that solved the problem. I will order a Vesuvius probe to have on hand. Machine is performing well, certainly meeting all my expectations.


 I'd change it out in case it's not totally accurate, you don't want the brew temp to be out by a few C.

When you do refit them, remember not to cable tie them to the main wiring bundle, makes it much easier for future maintenance. They changed probe manufacturer, apparently the first one they chose had some probes that went defective.


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## Mircea

Hi there, I'm new to this forum. However I'm very interested in nice coffee and in a ACS Minima, but all the threads relating to it are not active anymore. I see that some time ago there were some very good deals on these machines.
I came across the Minima by pure chance only a few days ago, and after seeing David Corbey's review, I'm sold on it.

I'm wondering if there are still any good deals knocking around. I am based in Dublin, Ireland and if I could avoid it, I'd prefer not to pay the full price for one. 
I thought I have nothing to loose by asking on this forum.

Cheers guys and I hope that you might be able to put a smile on my face.


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## Batian

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/acs-minima-dual-boiler-espresso-machine.html


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