# Plumbing in experiences



## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

I have just successfully plumbed in my Londinium I lever machine and I'm very pleased with the result - not only for the obvious convenience, but it's great to lose the noise of the pump.

I've plumbed it in via an Everpure Claris filter and I've been urged by Londinium to install a shut-off valve to turn off the water supply when I'm out as, despite the reliablity of solenoid valves, it is possible for particles to get into the system and stop the valves working. Apparently some users have experienced floods as the result.

Now this surprised me as I've had washing machines and dishwashers plumbed in for years and never turned the water supply off, even when I'm away on holiday. Is there a real risk of flooding or are Londinium being paranoid?

I was also told that there is a particular problem with Claris filters in that carbon granules can leak out from the filter and get into the valves. Again, this surprised me as I assumed that filters would reduce rather than increase the likelihood of foreign matter in the water supply. Anybody aware of this problem? And has anyone here actually had a flood from a plumbed-in coffee machine?


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

Have dealt with plumbed in machines for years and never experienced a flood due to leaving water supply on personally. No experience of the Claris system unfortunately.


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## repeat (Nov 14, 2009)

I've recently moved to plumbed with the speedster and don't plan to shut it off unless I'm away from home for more than 1 night. Saw a few folks on HB talk about installing shutoff valves but I'll take my chances.

Plumbing in is well worth the effort. Wished I had done it 2 years ago with the duetto.


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## mitussis (Jan 7, 2013)

I'm awaiting my Londinium I and have got the goodies to plumb it with a shut off valve.

A valve means if I need to move the machine I don't need to shut off water to the rest of the flat. I don't need a filter, but if something goes wrong with yours, or a replacement is delayed, or you want to change the filter when the dishwasher is running or someone is in the shower (the coffee fix can't wait), or you want to flush it because it has dried after some time away, etc., then it would be nice to have control over that and not affect the rest of your plumbing.

For a £5 part, seems a pity not to do it, even if it turns out you never need it.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Yes, mitussis, I've have ordered a valve. My concern was more whether it was necessary to turn it off or not when I was out.

You say you don't need a filter - do you live somewhere where the water is unusually soft?


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## mitussis (Jan 7, 2013)

"Very soft" according to the water company website and no lime scale in kettle or bathroom. Fed from the Lake District I think. When I was further south I always filtered.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

very lucky!

Water is terrible here, I'm running it off volvic....


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Thank you, everybody. It's clearly stupid not to have a shut-off valve. How often one actually turns the water supply off comes down to a personal risk equation.

But two questions remain in my mind:

1) Are coffee machines any more vulnerable than other appliances to flooding?

2) Does a water filter system, like the Claris, actually increase chances of flooding by the release of very small carbon particles, or are these no more problematic than the grit/deposits that are in an unfiltered water supply?


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## panzanella (Dec 22, 2011)

So the seals around the piston can hold 9 bar pressure when extracting but cannot hold mains pressure (~3 bar?) when the pressure differential is reversed due to a stuck solenoid?


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

panzanella said:


> So the seals around the piston can hold 9 bar pressure when extracting but cannot hold mains pressure (~3 bar?) when the pressure differential is reversed due to a stuck solenoid?


This is what Reiss at Londinium told me:

'solenoid valves are reliable, and there is a filter before the valve, but it only takes a tiny pin prick of grit to flow through the valve as it is closing and prevent complete closure

even if you turn the machine off, as it cools the anti-vac valve will open, the solenoid valve will keep filling the boiler (if it has been prevented from fully closing) and the water will start pouring out of the anti-vac valve

this is not an L1 short coming - it is true of all commercial machines'


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

funinacup said:


> Have dealt with plumbed in machines for years and never experienced a flood due to leaving water supply on personally. No experience of the Claris system unfortunately.


May I ask, what (if any) in line filters would you recommend for home use, on a tight(ish) budget?


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

The Everpure Claris system is very much geared to coffee making, and you can adjust the hardness to the appropriate level. You need to test the water and set the cartridge head to the right number. It's a good idea to put a water meter in line so you know when you need to replace the catridge. You are probably going to spend a £100 or so a year on replacement cartridges.

Happy Donkey have a variety of inexpensive filter systems but I have no experience of them.


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## repeat (Nov 14, 2009)

RoloD said:


> This is what Reiss at Londinium told me:
> 
> 'solenoid valves are reliable, and there is a filter before the valve, but it only takes a tiny pin prick of grit to flow through the valve as it is closing and prevent complete closure
> 
> ...


So are we saying that all commercial machines are switched off every night and the water shutoff?


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Reiss told me the world was gonna end last month


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

repeat said:


> So are we saying that all commercial machines are switched off every night and the water shutoff?


 No, I'm sure they are not.

I started this thread because i wanted to separate myth from reality -

i) how common are flooding problems with coffee machines, are they more prone to flooding than other appliances?

ii) do water filters increase rather than decrease these problems?

iii) do most people really turn the water supply off to their coffee machines every night?

So far, my answer to i) is, I think, they are less prone than a bath (baths have overflows) but no more prone than a washing machine. But some coffee machine owners out there have been unlucky (or, possibly, careless)

ii) Don't know, but personally I doubt it.

iii) No.

Nevertheless, putting a stop tap on is a very sensible idea.


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

I'd agree. Have never turned the water off to a machine unless I'm disconnecting the water supply/changing a part that requires it.

We use 3M in-line filters on the supply to machines at the studio but not on the supply at the tap. The water here is good and no scale worries, but use 3M filters, even though the tap water is great. No issues with taste/smell from either supplies.


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## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

aaronb said:


> very lucky!
> 
> Water is terrible here, I'm running it off volvic....


Volvic for me as well.


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

This can happen to any commercial machine, but I come across this problem only about once a year in my travels.

You can minimise the chance of any grit getting into the inlet solenoid valve by stuffing a small piece of woven filter mesh / foam into one of the inlet hose connections near to the inlet valve (the filter mesh used in cooker hoods is ideal).

An inline shut-off valve is useful for future maintenance on your machine.

PS All hot & cold water domestic taps, plus cistern inlets, should have shut-off valves fitted as standard: Saves time & hassle all round on DIY plumbing repairs !!


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## ifunky (Feb 21, 2012)

Hmmm silly Q: is there somewhere a guide "Plumb in for dummies" or do i need a specialist to do that? Thinking about setting up our Rocket in our new home









EDIT: guess underlying question is does it worth it on LT or should i stick on Volvic?


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

ifunky said:


> Hmmm silly Q: is there somewhere a guide "Plumb in for dummies" or do i need a specialist to do that? Thinking about setting up our Rocket in our new home


I don't know of a guide as such.

Basically you just need to connect to the cold water supply which is a very basic plumbing job (via a shut-off valve, as discussed above).

If you have hard water you should also connect it via a filter system. I've used the Everpure Claris which is designed for coffee machines and is adjustable to suit the particular hardness of your water.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Funnily enough, I have had a problem with a faulty solenoid switch on a newly plumbed in washing machine that managed to flood. Fortunately, the washing machine (won't say which brand) was located in the garage. The extent of the flood was considerable. God knows what damage it would have ensued if the washing machine was located indoors. Bemused, I asked the 'engineer' who came to replace the defective part why the solenoid was designed to fail in the open position. He shrugged his shoulders and said his job was just to replace them. He did add that ours was not an isolated experience. So, a simple shut off valve for a plumbed in Londinium seems a good idea. Better to be safe than sorry.


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## ifunky (Feb 21, 2012)

Thanks RoloD sounds easy that way ..... :-D


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Might be worth mentioning - European coffee machines commonly have 3/8" BSP fittings rather than metric (the Londinium certainly does and I believe this is the case with continental machines too). These are fairly common (particularly in water filtration systems and caravans) but it's worth telling your plumber before he complains he hasn't got the parts.


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

I've only just read this thread... And Reiss was referring to me and my plumbed in Londinium... My didn't we have fun that day!

It was not the solenoid though, apart from the fact that it was slightly confused.

Here's what happened... I woke up at around 5:30am and attended the water closet, then I switched on the machine, then I went back to bed. At about 7:30am I went to the kitchen and it was around 5mm under water... That is quite a lot







, considering that it was in the kitchen drawers as well as the floor and worktop. Normally, I do this the other way round, and then before I go back to bed, I check the machine again.

On the Londinium, there is a green light which indicates that the boiler is filling, and a red light which denotes heating. What I reckon happened here was that the boiler required water and the safety valve at the top of the boiler encountered a little piece of 'something' and the valve stayed open... The effect was that water just kept running out of the safety valve, the boiler never filled.

I reckon that if the boiler is hot and in normal use, the pressure will never allow the safety valve to encounter this problem. I installed a shut off valve during the original installation, and of course this was not employed and I really don't think that it is necessary to either, it is just a practical thing to do anyway. The problem did not start until the machine was switched on... My mistake was that I didn't go back to check that everything was working correctly. By that I mean that the green light should switch off and the red light should switch on and build the pressure, after that it is difficult to see how it would fail other than with a solenoid failure and even that should fail safe.

Anyway, the problem was instantly diagnosed by Adrian at Fracino, and he hears of this occasionally during visits made by his service team, who as I understand things service many machines, not just Fracino. Reiss had no idea that this could happen, it is rare.

The solution was as follows: Open the water spigot and lock it open, switch on the machine and wait. The errant particle fell away from the safety valve mechanism and eventually made its way out of the water spigot I suppose. I am not sure whether this would work every time, but it worked on this occasion.

Incidentally, there are a couple of alarm style devices that could be used to check for leakage and sound an alarm, one of them switches the water supply off too.

I found something called a leak detector ont' web and one that might well suit coffee machine use here...

http://www.aquahot.co.uk/index.php?action=store&id_prd=1215

I also saw a less Heath-Robinson design (but probably more expensive) called Flood Stoppa.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Yes, I heard about that, Sjenner. I think, as you say, such occurrences are very rare.

As it happens, today I found a leak in my basement which turned out to be from a washing machine spigot (not a fault with the machine itself, just the spigot). But that's the first time that's ever happened to me.

I think the moral of the story is that anything that is connected to the water system can cause leaks. There is nothing particulary risky about a coffee machine being plumbed in - until this happens to you!


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

RoloD said:


> Yes, I heard about that, Sjenner. I think, as you say, such occurrences are very rare.
> 
> As it happens, today I found a leak in my basement which turned out to be from a washing machine spigot (not a fault with the machine itself, just the spigot). But that's the first time that's ever happened to me.
> 
> I think the moral of the story is that anything that is connected to the water system can cause leaks. There is nothing particulary risky about a coffee machine being plumbed in - until this happens to you!


On a similar track Roland, what is your opinion of the Claris system?

According to my water test kit, at full setting (0 on the mixer), my water is still too hard, it is definitely working though!. I am considering replacing my aged reverse osmosis unit with a new one with a pump and a post filter to add hardness back. It seems to me to be a better idea to clean everything out of the water and then just add back what is optimum for coffee and coffee machines... as per the SCAA PDF: http://scaa.org/PDF/ST%20-%20WATER%20STANDARD%20V.21NOV2009A.pdf


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

I'm pretty happy with the Claris. Once it's fitted, you can forget about it and the coffee tastes good.

Be prepared to spend a hundred quid or so a year on filters.


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

RoloD said:


> I'm pretty happy with the Claris. Once it's fitted, you can forget about it and the coffee tastes good.
> 
> Be prepared to spend a hundred quid or so a year on filters.


The price of filters is not my concern particularly, I have a whole house water softener and a reverse osmosis system for drinking water, there are three filters required at 6 monthly intervals on the RO system, and around 6-8 25kg bags of tablet salt for the softener each year, already well over £100 per year.

I have my Claris set at 0, in other words, I am not allowing any hard water back in... But I am still getting water that will sooner or later calcify the Londinium and in much less than a year... I must have harder water in SE London than you do in the far north of Maida Vale or whatever







, the Claris just isn't actually effective, so the quest goes on.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

sjenner said:


> I have my Claris set at 0, in other words, I am not allowing any hard water back in... But I am still getting water that will sooner or later calcify the Londinium and in much less than a year... I must have harder water in SE London than you do in the far north of Maida Vale or whatever
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 OK, I admit I haven't tested the output from the Claris recently. Mine is set to 2, which is what the sweet waters of Camden Town seem to require. I shall check and report back.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I feel sorry for you guys that have this water problem, living in an area that does not ave an issue. SJ, could you not revert the L1 back to a tanked system and use the recommended Volvic. it would be a faff but at least you would know that your L! 's insides would not be being corroded.


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## daz25 (Jun 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I feel sorry for you guys that have this water problem, living in an area that does not ave an issue. SJ, could you not revert the L1 back to a tanked system and use the recommended Volvic. it would be a faff but at least you would know that your L! 's insides would not be being corroded.


Thanks for that advice.


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