# Fast extraction, sloppy pucks. Help please!



## shabcos (Nov 5, 2015)

Hey guys,

I'm quite new to home espressos so the fault is likely to be mine.

Okay, so I have a gaggia class and an mc2 grinder. Using columbian suarez beans from rave 7 days after roast.

As the title says I'm getting fast extractions (around 15 secs) and sloppy, wet pucks.

Espresso is as expected, sour.

I'm finding it hard to find the sweet spot on the mc2. I either get fast extractions or none at all.

Quite stumped. Could be my tamping technique, but I don't know.

I'm also finding dosing a bit of an issue too. I fill up the basket and it overflows (which is messy) and when I tamp it looks like it's under-dosed.

So yeah any help would be great. Thank you.

Jon


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What is your dose ( by weight )

What is your output by weight

Do you have a tamper

Research for you if you haven't already

Read below you need to have aroudn 16-17 g for a double basket - not to fill it

Set a dose 17g still to it ( to the 0.1g )

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22879-Beginners-Reading-Weighing-Espresso-Brew-Ratios


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

There should be some " headspace " in the basket by this i mean you shouldn't fill it to the top


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

Should be able to dial in an MC2 gradually as the gearing is so small (makes only tiny adjustments) need to weigh though, it's vital.

P.S I don't think i'd worry about wet pucks on a classic so much.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I might be wrong (probably am LOL!) but having had a Classic/MC2 and then an R58 I've had a far higher percentage of wet pucks with the Rocket, yet the coffee has been streets ahead. My conclusion is that wet pucks are not only a non-issue, they're an indicator that you haven't overfilled the basket and there is headroom for the brew to take place without putting the puck under too much pressure. At least that's my take on it, not really sure what the 'official line' or consensus is. The MC2 can take an age to dial in because the screw is so fine. But it sounds like you need to keep to your 17 or 18g whatever (be consistent ) and just grind finer.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

As others have stated keep consistent, the only variable here should be the grind, tamp the same, weigh the dose always the same.

If you only change one variable you have ultimate control over whats happening.

Ian


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## shabcos (Nov 5, 2015)

Hey Guys,

Thank you all for your messages.

After some more tweaking and also measuring I've managed to pull a few decent shots!

Averaging around 27 secs. Not tasting sour anymore. I was so excited!

I wake up the next day, warm up my gaggia (waiting at least 20 mins), grind the beans, tamp blah blah same as usual.

And it pulls fast again! (15 secs) Nothing had changed in my process.

At first I thought I tamped too lightly so I tamped harder and firmer. Nope that didn't change it at all, still fast.

I'm kinda stumped.

Also, not sure if this is normal but there are tiny fragments of coffee at the bottom of my cup upon finishing my drink.

Is it too fine? Maybe. But why would it pull so fast?

Jon


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Well, not sure quite what you mean by fragments. How big? If they're larger than dust (or something that could have come through the basket) then have you checked that your portafilter is locking in correctly, that there are no leaks and no bits of grind stuck on the group gasket which could be causing leaks (and therefore a bad extraction).

Other than that I can only say that grind can vary a bit from day to day and through the day (not that much though). Also the MC2 does drift a bit so you may need to just tighten up again. I remember similar frustrations.


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## shabcos (Nov 5, 2015)

The fragments are just tiny little grains. Specs I suppose.


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## martinierius (Sep 28, 2014)

First shot will have some old coffee from day before in the shute of your grinder. Therefore it's too fast. Next shot should be better. Try it.


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## shabcos (Nov 5, 2015)

Alright so after re-adjusting and on the third shot of the day I managed to get a good tasting espresso with a pull at 25 secs.

Is 25 secs okay for a double? (about 60ml)

Forgot to take a picture of the espresso but here is the long black, tamper, puck and the grounds at the bottom of the glass (which I'm not sure about).









Apologies for sideways images... not sure why that happened.

Jon


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## AL1968 (May 3, 2015)

Looking at the picture of the basket there are coffee grounds on the lugs and some on the sides, maybe the seal has gone and is pushing coffee/water/grounds up and out of the sides this could cause the "bits" and maybe the false impression of a fast pour. 60ml in 25 secs seems too fast to me I normally grind 18gms and look for 36gms out in about 30 secs. If you're a few seconds short of the time/gms out its usually down to the tamp pressure. Check how the basket looks when it's locked in. Are you sure there's no distortion on the head?

When you tamp after applying pressure spin the tamper through 45 degrees in each direction to give the puck a polish and don't push the coffee grinds down with your fingers prior to tamping. Check how the tamper looks after tamping the coffee whilst still in the basket it should be level across the puck if not this will cause a fast pour through the less compacted area. All this sounds complicated but eventually you'll be making great coffee every time.

Flush the head after each extraction if you leave grounds on the head overnight this could affect the seal/ pour.

Hope some of this helps I found the same thing when I started and it was down to inconsistent tamping. Maybe by the time next morning comes round your muscle memory for the tamp pressure needs to be reset.


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## shabcos (Nov 5, 2015)

I'm sure nothing is coming out of the sides and that the only liquid coming out is from the spouts.

How do I determine if there is distortion on the head?


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## AL1968 (May 3, 2015)

Check if the basket/handle looks level when locked in to the head I guess if no leakage is apparent then the basket/ head seal is ok. Can you try another basket?

Are you storing your beans in a dark air tight container and using them fresh in the grinder hopper for each extraction?


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## shabcos (Nov 5, 2015)

I can try a single basket.

My double is brand new mind you.

Isn't 60ml typical for a double shot anyway? So shouldn't 25 secs be okay?


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## AL1968 (May 3, 2015)

Depends how you define a double, what weight of ground coffee are you using?


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## shabcos (Nov 5, 2015)

I always thought that you use a single basket for a single shot, (7-9g ground coffee to make a 30ml or so shot.)

And double basket for a double shot, (17-18g ground coffee to make a 60ml or so shot.)

And yes, beans are in an air tight container.


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## AL1968 (May 3, 2015)

Ok back to basics, if you check the posts on here there's a whole bunch of them which define the start point "recipe" this fooled me for a while but the basic start point in a 1:2 ration. So 18gms of ground coffee in the basket 36 gms of liquid out this I define as a double shot in about 30secs. You can alter the time/liquid out marginally but I'd stick to the basic recipe untill that works for you. Then you can make minor adjustments when your more confident.

Check this thread it may help http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22879-Beginners-Reading-Weighing-Espresso-Brew-Ratios


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## shabcos (Nov 5, 2015)

Oh I see. So what I'm doing is a 'lungo' which is 1:3 (?) but should be taking around 31-35 secs (?)

Why do people say that a double is 60ml and a single is 30ml?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

What you refer to "specs", "bits", "grains" are, in my opinion, what a lot of people call "fines". These are finer than usual coffee grinds, and are most likely related to the grinder. Fines are part of espresso, and gives it some of the texture. What you don't want is too many fines, and you end up with a gritty-like feel to the beverage. For example, if you want to try some espresso without the fines, try putting an Aeropress paper filter at the bottom of your basket and then grind on top of it. The shot will channel a bit, but what you get is a very clean beverage. So, I used to get annoyed by those fines at the bottom of my cup after a long black too. For me, what worked well was to use a VST basket, as the holes are much smaller than the holes in the standard basket, presumably filtering it a bit better and those not ending in the cup.

Edit: spelling mistakes.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

shabcos said:


> Oh I see. So what I'm doing is a 'lungo' which is 1:3 (?) but should be taking around 31-35 secs (?)
> 
> Why do people say that a double is 60ml and a single is 30ml?


Where are you seeing people call these sizes these things? Single/double/triple tends to refer to the basket capacity, not the drink. Never mind the names anyway, it doesn't really matter.

18g > 36g > 30s (rough guide starting point!)

If you want a 'longer' (bigger) drink I'd probably suggest adding water to the espresso rather than pulling longer shots. At least until you get the hang of it.

As for tamping, I'm fond of this approach: https://coffeehustle.com/posts/EdP68LrWqAgyY4gsL/how-hard-should-you-tamp

tl:dr - Tamping pressure matters. If you press until the tamper stops moving down, and keep it level, you're golden

No need for anything fancy.

As for the shot the next day flowing differently, welcome to the frustrating world of espresso. Beans are a day older, temperature and humidity in the room may be different, MC2 apparently drifts. There are a myriad of reasons for this happening.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

shabcos said:


> Oh I see. So what I'm doing is a 'lungo' which is 1:3 (?) but should be taking around 31-35 secs (?)
> 
> Why do people say that a double is 60ml and a single is 30ml?


"ml" is a measure of volume, it can relate to various weights of beverage, depending on crema.

Italian espresso is currently defined as 7g into 25ml of beverage, in 25sec...but not everyone here is trying to make authentic Italian espresso. Longer brew ratios, like 3:1 might be fine at 25sec, don't get too hung up on shot time, it varies on size of shot, weight of shot (in g) is a more consistent way of defining your shot.

Brew at a consistent ratio, with a consistent dose (to say 0.3g, which may be the tolerance of scales that read on 0.1g increments) & adjust grind to steer the flavour, keep a note of shot time but kill the shot by weight.


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## yardbent (Aug 8, 2015)

beginner here - slowly getting there with my Gaggia Classic

I'm using an 18g VST basket ( you could try these)

loaded with 17.0g by weight of a fairly fine grind from a Graef CM800

tap on the bench - then a firm tamp with flat 58.35 tamper

i put a set of 600g scales on the drip tray with my cup - set tare = 0.0

run 'brew' switch till 36g is in the cup.....a few drops usually so 38g

then i *note the 'run time'* - initially 35-45secs

made the grind finer till run time is now 28-30 secs = a massive improvement so 17>38>28

not saying these are the 'best' parameters - just wanted to say ''only variable'' i played with was the *grind*

sorry if you know all this ...









EDIT - after each grind i give the chute a good wack to dislodge any residue - so next morning I'm using [mostly] fresh coffee


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

I would also recommend a precision basket, VST or Strada baskets are going to reduce the amount of fines and improve your consistency.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

18>36ish @ 25-30 is a good start point. But you can play. Sometimes I prefer 18>45, depending on the bean, but would expect to get this quantity in no less than 35". Less gloopy but also less intense and a bit longer, but loses some sweetness. On the other hand if you're getting 18>60 in 25 that would pretty much count as a 'gusher' for me and I'd expect it to look too light and taste acidic. Ultimately it's what you like the taste of. Brew ratios are a guide so you can find what you like and repeat it, not a rule about what constitutes 'proper' espresso.


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## AL1968 (May 3, 2015)

How's it going now? Did any of the suggestions help sort out your problem?


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