# Over or under-extracted?



## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

Hi, I have been playing recently with my aerorpess parameters searching for a better recipe. Of course, you can follow aeropress championship's recipes, but there is at least one parameter you cannot replicate: grind size. So if I keep all parameters constant except grind size, how can I taste if my brew is over or underextracted without a refractometer? Sometimes the coffee lacks citrus, sometimes is badly bitter, sometimes lacks the chocolate notes,...

I am using a felgrind, currently on 1.6, 80ºC temperature, 17g coffee, inverted method, 1:30 total brew.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Cup the coffee to pick out the key flavour notes. Then back off the grind gradually and see how this affects taste. With all brew methods that use agitation, it's very easy to over/under stir with consequent impact on extraction yields - i.e. strength. Try and keep the number of stirs you give at the bloom stage the same each time as well as the speed. You could also reduce the time parameter to bring down the extraction yield. Method I use with Aeropress is 1min 30sec start to finish. Gives me an EY with Rocko Mountain of around 19-20%


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Should have added 19-20% EY gives a good balance of flavour clarity and body/mouth feel.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

fede_luppi said:


> how can I taste if my brew is over or underextracted without a refractometer? Sometimes the coffee lacks citrus, sometimes is badly bitter, sometimes lacks the chocolate notes,...
> 
> I am using a felgrind, currently on 1.6, 80ºC temperature, 17g coffee, inverted method, 1:30 total brew.


Inverted, you're probably not overextracting...ever, at 80C & 1:30.

Citrus should really be there if it's in the tasting notes, I wouldn't expect citrus to be present in most coffees. Likewise, bitterness & chocolate don't really relate to a specific degree of extraction. Note your parameters & try & keep them consistent for the good brews.

If you want to find the limit of extraction grind progressively finer & steep progressively longer until brews are consistently bitter, I have never achieved this in an inverted Aeropress, you might have better 'luck'?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Why not exaggerate 2 brews and leave what youre currently doing as a control .

Make one brew 95c and leave for 2min 30.

Make another brew 75c and leave for only one minute.

Compare notes


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## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

Thanks guys, I will start experimenting&#8230;isn't this one of the reasons we love coffee?

It's funny but now that I have a much better grinder for brewed, I am struggling to make a consistently good cup


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

What grinder are you using?


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## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

Felgrind for brewed, Macap MXD for espresso. I was getting fairly consistent results after a while using a Hario mini mill, and now my results are all over the shop.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

It may have been easier to get a finer grind with the Hario vs Feldgrind, try tightening the grind until you hear burr rub, then back off until the faintest whisper of rub disappears.

If you're brewing inverted, skim & taste off the top, when it tastes great, flip & plunge.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

17g coffee into how much brew water?


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## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

Step21 said:


> 17g coffee into how much brew water?


230g of water


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## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

MWJB said:


> It may have been easier to get a finer grind with the Hario vs Feldgrind, try tightening the grind until you hear burr rub, then back off until the faintest whisper of rub disappears.
> 
> If you're brewing inverted, skim & taste off the top, when it tastes great, flip & plunge.


The grind size that worked out for me with the Hario actually looked coarser than the current with the Felgrind&#8230;reason I thought I might be overextracting...


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

fede_luppi said:


> 230g of water


Id be tempted to knock a couple of grams off the dose


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

fede_luppi said:


> The grind size that worked out for me with the Hario actually looked coarser than the current with the Felgrind&#8230;reason I thought I might be overextracting...


If the Feldgrind settings correspond to the Hausgrind then 1.6 is the type of grind i'd be using for Chemex. For AP i'd go a lot finer. My last AP brew was at 10 o'clock (0.10)...

I'd guess that using your current brew ratio (a pretty high 74g/l) in conjuction with a low temp 80C and a coarse grind there is little chance of over extraction. Quite the reverse, i'd guess you are under extracting and falling below the 18-22% zone of preference. This is not to say that tasty brews cannot be had under 18% on the AP, they most certainly can. Nor is it a guarantee that if you hit 19 or 20% it will taste good - but the chances are better. There is a lower zone of preference around 12-14% which i think some of these high dose/low temp World Champ recipes may be targeting.

I'd take Gary's advice above and try a brew at 15g (65g/l) and then i'd suggest 14g and another at 13g (56g/l) and see what you think tastewise.

Personally, i'd be brewing at a higher temp 90 - 94C range especially if you want fruity citrus acidity. Bring down the grind a bit. Try 1.2/1.3?

Lots to experiment with!

Following recent feedback from my learned friends on here, i've brought down my brew ratio to 55g/l. I'm also grinding espresso fine, adding water at 94 to 96C, stirring gently for 10secs once water is in, and steeping circa 20mins which (depending on the solubility of the bean) is getting me an extraction yield still coming under 22% with a TDS of around 1.15% (trying to hit 1.3). This is getting me some seriously lovely brews. Not everyone can be bothered to wait 20min for a brew though...


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## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

Felgrind: 1.4, 15g coffee, 260 water 85ºC. 60g water in, 15 sec stir, 30 sec bloom, add the rest of the water. 1:30 plunge, done at 2:00.

I would say this is a more complex brew, definitively more chocolate and sweetness. Better brew, but still not my best one, missing fruits and acidity.

Will try a finer grind next time. The reason I was sticking with 1.6 on the felgrind and low temperatures is that 2 weeks ago I made a crazy AP without measuring the parameters, 1.6 on the felgrind, kettle off for 4-5 min (so probably quite low temperature), roughly 17g coffee and 250 of water, 1:30 total brew&#8230; and it was delicious, probably my best AP brew, very fruity and lemony, specially when it cooled.


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## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

How can I know when my grind size is too fine? No matter how fine I go (I am 1.2 on the feldgrind now, and some people suggest 1.6-1.8), I cannot extract all the different flavours, and my brew is rather boring. In addition, I am now using water just off the boil, so I have significantly increased the water temperature and reduced the grind size, and still can't hit a damn good AP as I used to.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Your burrs will make a noise when you turn the grinder with no beans in it.

Can you flesh out your method & what coffee you are using, what you are tasting?


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## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

When my burrs are completely tightened and make a noise I am in espresso, or even turkish, territory. Do you suggest using espresso grind size for AP?

Method

Ethiopian Hunda Oli (Rave)

Felgrind: 1.2, 15g coffee, 260 water off the boil. 60g water in, 15 sec stir, 30 sec bloom, add the rest of the water. 1:30 plunge, done at 2:00.

It's not bad, more complex than when grinding coarser probably, but still not a very complex brew.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Inverted?

I can't see that coffee on their site, what is it tasting of, what do the notes say?


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## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

Yes, inverted.

It seems the coffee is no longer available. "fresh apricot, melon, jasmine and tea-rose floral tones with a dollop of good honey."

This is the bag I opened yesterday, but I was also having problems of complexity with the previous bag of has bean IMM Costa Rica, which was excellent as espresso.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Have you cupped this particular coffee (i.e. do you know the flavours you're looking for are there?)


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## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

This beans are new for me, but I know that I haven't been able to reproduce with the Felgrind good brews I did in the past using the same beans. In particular, I got some consistency in extracting a lot of flavours after dropping water temp to 80ºC on my old Hario mini settings (6 clicks). I would expect a much more complex cup in general with the feldgrind compared to the Hario, but so far I got mostly boring cups with no clear and bright flavours, except for a couple of times that I did not control the parameters...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

6 clicks on a Hario Slim would be a pretty fine grind compared to the burrs you have in the MBK grinder.

I just tried your method, with my Lido1 (same burrs) set just off the first whisper of rub (so finer than you are?). I got a cup somewhat weaker than I'd like, definitely not overextracted. Not unpleasant, just weak (1.14%TDS, 21%EY immersion mode), slightly astringent in finish. For this method/brew time I'd perhaps dose up, or more likely reduce water (260g is a squeeze) 240-220g?

I like my Aeropress steeps a bit more developed than this, but given your very quick brew time, I don't know how that would be possible. Not sure you need the bloom time, nor to stir quite so much?

(What I did: Grind just off burr rub, 15g, rinse filter with water right off boil added 60g of brew water to coffee in inverted AP, stirred for 15sec, 30s more to bloom, flipped & plunged at 1:30, end at 2:00)


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## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

Please, could you describe your method and, whether you would recommend going as fine as burr rub? Including water temp please.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

fede_luppi said:


> Please, could you describe your method and, whether you would recommend going as fine as burr rub? Including water temp please.


I thought I just did? 

Make sure there is no background noise, tighten the burrs until you clearly hear them rub, then back off until you just hear a faint whisper: "Sshhh, ssshhh, ssshhh" it will just be at 1 point in the rotation, now back off ~1/8th turn so the burrs are silent. For example, Lido1 at 1/8th turn off whisper my average grind size allows 55% to pass through a 0.5mm sieve, my Porlex at 7 clicks (your Hario may be different, but my Slim was finer than the Porlex at same settings) let 65% pass (e.g. finer than the Lido setting).

You have a very short steep time, I don't know how quickly you are filling but I only got the full water weight in with a few tens of seconds to spare before the flip. I'd just do a fill to full weight, stir briefly? More time for the full brew water to work on the coffee?

Temp: ~500g in kettle. Kettle boiled, left it 30s, rinsed filter, then bloomed, so 60sec ish off boil.

The point is, I'm pretty well as fine as I can go on the Lido1, at the ratio you are brewing at (green vector on the chart), if you are coarser than me, you're likely extracting less - look at the chart below...if you are 19%-21%EY (lots of folk do like this range, but brew at a higher ratio, I prefer a ratio closer to what you are using but a longer & higher extraction) then you will only get weak coffee at 15g to 260g...








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## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

MWJB said:


> I thought I just did?


Sorry, what I meant is whether you can describe the method you usually use, rather than the method you used to reproduce my brew. I am after improving my method, so your step by step procedure would be much appreciated. I can later try it on and taste the difference.

Thanks!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sorry, 55-60g/l, grind as described, 30-60sec off boil, all water straight in, if right way up, quick stir, plunger in to stop it draining then leave it 20-30mins. Discard any drips in cup before plunging, break the seal on the plunger so it starts to drain under gravity, then plunge slowly until I see the bed & stop.

If inverted, preheat, in with water first, then coffee, dunk to wet, cap on, flip & swirl to wash grinds off the plunger, steep 20-30mins, plunge slowly until I see the bed & stop.


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## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

Many thanks! It's not the quickest method for a morning cup before work, but I will definitively give it a go to check what's the maximum I can expect from a bag of beans.

Cheers


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Well plenty of folk like quick Aeropress brews (e.g. Tim Wendelboe's method), but I prefer to drip brew if time is a consideration.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Sorry, 55-60g/l, grind as described, 30-60sec off boil, all water straight in, if right way up, quick stir, plunger in to stop it draining then leave it 20-30mins. Discard any drips in cup before plunging, break the seal on the plunger so it starts to drain under gravity, then plunge slowly until I see the bed & stop.
> 
> If inverted, preheat, in with water first, then coffee, dunk to wet, cap on, flip & swirl to wash grinds off the plunger, steep 20-30mins, plunge slowly until I see the bed & stop.


I always appreciate your advice on the slower brews. Your tips on Sowdens have made me produce some fantastically sweet brews using the 45 min steep.

I think you should enter the Aeropress championships with the above recipe. For the 29min wait I think you should play the theme to Tony Harts gallery .

In all seriousness do they have a time limit?


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Just end the brew before the coffee gets below a temperature that you like to drink it at. Can take a surprisingly long time especially if the AP is full.


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## fede_luppi (Jan 8, 2015)

I bought a sowden off the forum yesterday and I can't wait to use it! Any sowden recipe I can steep overnight and pre-heat in the microwave in the morning? Or re-heating would spoil the brew?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Urbanbumpkin wrote: "I think you should enter the Aeropress championships with the above recipe. For the 29min wait I think you should play the theme to Tony Harts gallery. In all seriousness do they have a time limit?"

Ha ha, Bohemian Rhapsody on a loop might be more realistic... just got to shave off 21 minutes to qualify...hmmm


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Or Jean Michel Jarre? You could add some lasers to the show to detract from the boredom (I think that was Jeans general strategy)

......sorry Jarre fans.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Or Jean Michel Jarre? You could add some lasers to the show to detract from the boredom (I think that was Jeans general strategy)
> 
> ......sorry Jarre fans.


Kraftwerk was better!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Kraftwerk was better!


Kraftwerk are awesome.


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