# New Owner - Sage Duo Temp



## jnash (Jul 17, 2016)

Hi all, i have just purchased a Duo Temp and i am struggling to get a decent espresso with a particular type of coffee.

I had my local coffee house grind up some coffee for me to use and i never get a flow at all, regardless how much or less i tamper down the puck.

Using a different coffee (from tescos) i get better results but i would like to know why this particular one doesnt work, is it due to it being ground so fine?

What happens is i keep it extracting through and i think the light just flashes and the machine just overheats?

Thank you in advance.

J


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

How much coffee are you putting in the basket (in grams to 0.1g)?

Which basket are you using? The pressurised, or the non-pressurised? Double, or single?

If you think the coffee is too fine, don't tamp hard, just enough pressure to level it.

Also, how long is "never", a minute?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

You really need a grinder of your own, for a variety of reasons. As soon as coffee is ground, then it has a shelf life measured in minutes before the staling process starts. Your coffee shop has no idea as to how fine/coarse to grind for your machine, so you really are throwing your money away.

You need to rethink and see if you can buy a suitable grinder, otherwise you will never get the best from your Sage


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> You really need a grinder of your own, for a variety of reasons. As soon as coffee is ground, then it has a shelf life measured in minutes before the staling process starts. Your coffee shop has no idea as to how fine/coarse to grind for your machine, so you really are throwing your money away.
> 
> You need to rethink and see if you can buy a suitable grinder, otherwise you will never get the best from your Sage


Good advice, but for now just getting some coffee from the current grounds would be no doubt good for @jnash?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

short term advice v long term. He needs to understand what is happening and the answer is that pre ground coffee does not work. He can tamp as hard as he likes, or as soft as he likes, but you know as well as I do that he is just guessing at what is going on. Even if the op bought a cheap hand grinder it will help educate him in the importance of preparing a shot.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Pre ground coffee can work well enough to at least produce some liquid in a cup (coffee can be ground certainly hours before use). Even when he gets a grinder, which he should, he will still have guessing to do, it won't magically turn out coffee at the right grind, he can still grind too fine, or too coarse...as everyone does at times. Even when he grinds his own coffee, the preparation of the shot will be the same procedure when it comes to dosing & tamping. Let's fix the urgent 'go/no go' issue, then deal with fine tuning & how to dial in grind, when he gets a grinder.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Point is, with no experience, if he has a grinder then it is his guessing, and not someone in a coffee shop guessing for him. I never said you could not make a cuppa from pre ground. I said a newbie is unlikely unless by chance, to get the same results because he has no known;edge to tinker with


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## jnash (Jul 17, 2016)

Hi All

Thank you all for your responses, this is all new to me. I completely understand i should really get myself a grinder and experiment until i find the sweet spot. i will look into starting with a hand grinder and start from there. meanwhile this morning i bought some regular stuff from sainburys and i produced something worthy of drinking this morning.

This will do until i get sorted, i thank you all for your very quick responses and look forward to learning from the forum.

Thanks again


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Ok. Medium term he needs to get a grinder because he needs to be able to adjust the grind level at home - not have a whole bag ground too fine to use.

'Emergency" measures to try to at least get some coffee out could be:

1 - tamp very light

2 - use less coffee (within reason)

3 - maybe try mixing some of the Tesco coffee with some of the too-finely-ground stuff so that it can at least be used and not go to waste.

Obviously none of these are ideal long term but it might save that bag of coffee from the bin and get the OP something to drink. It's almost impossible to make espresso at home without a decent grinder unless you rely on a pressurised basket and coarse ground stale supermarket coffee. Hopefully one of my suggestions will help until he can get a grinder that is up to the job. (Not some cheap thing that will be just as bad for espresso as pre-ground).


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Okie dokie, let me give you some guidelines to think about. Coffee is about extraction. You need to control everything, so first point is to get some cheap jewellery scales form eBay. Weigh 15 gms of ground coffee into the pf and tamp fairly lightly. You have to be consistent with everything otherwise you have no reference point. Lock the pf in and put the scales under the spout with a cup on. Press start and then you are looking for 60% of the dry weight in the cup in between 25 and 30 seconds. 15 plus 60% is 24. If the amount collected is too little and you have tamped fairly lightly, then the grind needs to be tightened up which you cannot do, so prepare again but this time give it a solid hard tamp and repeat.

It is by doing this that you can see how your shot is doing, hence the need to have a grinder. if you buy a bag of pre found and the grind is way off the mark, no amount of over filling the basket or taco pressure is going to solve it


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Okie dokie, let me give you some guidelines to think about. Coffee is about extraction. You need to control everything, so first point is to get some cheap jewellery scales form eBay. Weigh 15 gms of ground coffee into the pf and tamp fairly lightly. You have to be consistent with everything otherwise you have no reference point. Lock the pf in and put the scales under the spout with a cup on. Press start and then you are looking for 60% of the dry weight in the cup in between 25 and 30 seconds. 15 plus 60% is 24. If the amount collected is too little and you have tamped fairly lightly, then the grind needs to be tightened up which you cannot do, so prepare again but this time give it a solid hard tamp and repeat.
> 
> It is by doing this that you can see how your shot is doing, hence the need to have a grinder. if you buy a bag of pre found and the grind is way off the mark, no amount of over filling the basket or taco pressure is going to solve it


Telling someone that they need to pull a 60% shot isn't helpful, as most people may find this tricky & it requires a certain grind with a certain bean (jnash cannot adjust grind at the moment).

If @jnash is using preground that is too fine, as suggested, tamp light, go easy on the dose, then maybe starting at 60% brew ratio (15:25g, as it's 15/.6 - 15:24 is 160% of the dry weight in the cup), gradually pull longer shots, and record the output weight in the cup & see where tastes best.

The DTP has 10second preinfusion, so I wouldn't strictly try and fit all shots into a tight time bracket.

Use the non-pressurised single wall baskets, if you can't get anything out of the double, try the single basket.

The pre ground is ground, it has been ground on what we can assume is a suitable grinder, if we can get coffee out of the PF we can hopefully work out what brew ratio coincides with the grind setting used...before the coffee becomes too difficult to use (then stick it in a cafetiere instead).


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Telling someone that they need to pull a 60% shot isn't helpful, as most people may find this tricky & it requires a certain grind with a certain bean (jnash cannot adjust grind at the moment).
> 
> If @jnash is using preground that is too fine, as suggested, tamp light, go easy on the dose, then maybe starting at 60% brew ratio (15:25g, as it's 15/.6 - 15:24 is 160% of the dry weight in the cup), gradually pull longer shots, and record the output weight in the cup & see where tastes best.
> 
> ...


Mark, do you have to argue with me on everything I post? This his general advice given to someone who has little knowledge. 60% is a starting point, thats all. We all know you are the forum expert on anything coffee related but sometimes you have to back off a little


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

Someone check for the Four Horseman as I agree with @dfk41. Preground for espresso is making a rod for your own back. You will forever chase a decent and consistent shot down the rabbit hole as the coffee ages and the volatiles decay and oxidise. Get at least a Rhino hand grinder or spend another £70 and get a Feldgrind (not direct but from Dear Green or Machina Espresso) or a Lido from Coffeehit. The Rhino will just about give you good enough grounds for espresso. The Feldgrind and Lido can both easily do espresso. I would recommend both those hand grinders over a MC2. Good luck and stay away from preground for your own sanity.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Perhaps given the OP has said thanks for the advice given we can stop naval gazing and leave this thread until he returns

I made espresso with pre ground from a roasters for a while , it wont be perfection , you can get something drinkable from it ..

Yep a grinder is key , but given they dont have one , i think Mark's advice is sound to try and get something brown and tasty from it


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Mark, do you have to argue with me on everything I post? This his general advice given to someone who has little knowledge. 60% is a starting point, thats all. We all know you are the forum expert on anything coffee related but sometimes you have to back off a little


Your definition of a 60% shot is different to every other that you will find. If you are going to give advice it is useful if that advice is in line with the common definition.

I'm not an "expert" in anything other than doing the same thing over & over until I get a result I like & repeating it. Hopefully, as I can do that, I can tell someone else how to do it in language that the majority understand. Otherwise, what's the point?

You're too sensitive, I'm not picking on you, what you posted was confusing and I would have picked up anyone who posted what you did, not just you. Here's why...

1:1.6 is dose plus 60%, or a 62.5% shot.

Seems like I'm being pedantic & just finding fault wherever I can doesn't it? No, because when we start changing ratios (as you will have to do with a fixed grind/setting) 1:1.33 isn't a "33% shot", it's a 75% shot. A "33% shot" would be 15:45.5g or 1:3.

For a 1:x ratio, divide beverage by dose weight.

For a xx% shot, divide dose by beverage weight.

http://www.home-barista.com/tips/brewing-ratios-for-espresso-beverages-t2402.html


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Your definition of a 60% shot is different to every other that you will find. If you are going to give advice it is useful if that advice is in line with the common definition.
> 
> I'm not an "expert" in anything other than doing the same thing over & over until I get a result I like & repeating it. Hopefully, as I can do that, I can tell someone else how to do it in language that the majority understand. Otherwise, what's the point?
> 
> ...


I have some very simple, basic instructions to a beginner who is struggling....I did not day they were suitable for the more experienced person......I have uncomplicated advice to help him get started......not a lecture


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