# advice on ratio please



## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

I've recently acquired an 18g VST basket and I do like but coffee definitely runs faster through it, I received some Gaslight from BB yesterday and tried it this morning. I'm dosing 18g and I'm getting 35g out in just 18 second?

The grind is very fine, could I be grinding to fine? I realise grinding finer should produce a slower extraction but it doesn't look much in the basket as it is?

Could try 19g but just wondered if you can go to fine.


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

Keep going finer.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Do you have a naked pf?

Are the shots consistently 18 seconds or sometimes longer?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

GCGlasgow said:


> Keep going finer.


This ...vst baskets need a finer grind than other baskets ( more holes )


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

GCGlasgow said:


> Keep going finer.


Keep going finer you think Gordon, once it's tamper it looks minimal in the basket but I'll do that.

Is this a common thing when you switch to vst that you have to grind finer?


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

Not using a naked porta filter but if I was why would that make a difference?

Thanks


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Deansie26 said:


> Keep going finer you think Gordon, once it's tamper it looks minimal in the basket but I'll do that.
> 
> Is this a common thing when you switch to vst that you have to grind finer?


Yes its common , grind finer .


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

how does it taste?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

A vst basket does not need to be full ( they may look to the naked eye a little underdosed the dose should allow for some headroom . The dose whorls be between +/- 1g of the basket , so in your case 17-19g .

They need finer grind as they have more whole across a bigger area. So grind finer to get to tasty. Bear in mind you may need to change your ratio a little from other baskets as you are grinding finer and extracting a little more potentially .

As Phobic says - how does it taste ?


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

Some beans have greater volumes than others when ground so don't worry about it looking smaller, your next bean might fill the basket with 18g.


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

Tasted worse, was actually ok, weak crema. That 18 secs included pre infusion was quite a gusher.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Deansie26 said:


> Not using a naked porta filter but if I was why would that make a difference?
> 
> Thanks


I was wondering if it was a channeling/extraction issue. That's also why I asked if the time is always the same. If the time is constant then I would suggest it requires finer grinding, if the time varies then it may be chaneling.

Whilst I prefer the VST baskets I find them brutal on my technique and are more prone to channeling than my standard basket.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

As others have said I'd go finer but make sure you're careful with shot prep as vst's can be fickle.


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## Spud36 (May 22, 2015)

Thanks for raising this subject. Just got a new grinder and vst basket and i did think i had the grinder down quite fine to get a shot and now i know why. At least i know its normal. I am also using gaslight. This morning did 18g to 36g in 28 secs. Tasted lovely.


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## eddie57 (Mar 21, 2017)

Damn, so that's what it is now I have to either get a 15g vst or a 18g la marzocco,

otherwise, i have to change grind all the time, its been doing my head in


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

I now understand why many have little tools to break up clumps etc, previously I've just used a flat edge to level of and tamp. And because the grind was courser it was more fluid in consistency.

I've since went finer and it's taking 45 secs Phobic and is slightly bitter so may have over done it.


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

We're using the same grinder, basket and bean Spud lol. What machine do you have? I've the volumetric Emc, I'm now getting 40 seconds from brew button being pressed. I take it your time is from when you lift the lever?

Can someone confirm that if I'm getting bubbles in the shot it's probably down to the c02 in the beans? Not being rested long enough.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

if it's slightly bitter then you may be right, you might have gone a bit too fine, ease back a bit, somewhere between it tasting bitter and sour you should find what you're looking for.

make a note if your grind settings and log what the shot tastes like each time


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Deansie26 said:


> I now understand why many have little tools to break up clumps etc, previously I've just used a flat edge to level of and tamp. And because the grind was courser it was more fluid in consistency.
> 
> I've since went finer and it's taking 45 secs Phobic and is slightly bitter so may have over done it.


Deansie, my fickle 18g vst has been tamed consistently with an OCD and a levtamp. Expensive way to avoid gaining the right skills - but oh boy does it work and can do it in my sleep!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Learn to distribute by tapping and you won't need to buy a OCD but if you wanna then i wouldn't get the pucka OCD they are simply massviely overpriced for what they are ( £149 ) .


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Learn to distribute by tapping and you won't need to buy a OCD but if you wanna then i wouldn't get the pucka OCD they are simply massviely overpriced for what they are ( £149 ) .


That's subjective.

My subjective response is that I regard mine as value for money. It's very effective in my workflow and is a thing of beauty to own.


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## stevenh (May 15, 2014)

I bought a Chinese knock off for under £13, not as good as the real OCD but it has improved things, I follow that with one that has a flat base (knock off of the push tamper maybe?) and I've not had any gushers for a while...

Once I have everything consistent will go back to the old tamper and work on proper technique


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

kennyboy993 said:


> That's subjective.
> 
> My subjective response is that I regard mine as value for money. It's very effective in my workflow and is a thing of beauty to own.


It is subjective , but i was referring to the other products that do a similar job for around £20-40...* which i owned a few of previously. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder etc ....I owned some over priced things in my time , so it's fair play ( scales tampers etc ). I am pot and kettle.. Was just trying to suggest there are other routes than spending money if the OP doesn't wanna blow £300 ish on more gear .


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Fair play - wasn't aware the others were as effective as the OCD


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

stevenh said:



> I bought a Chinese knock off for under £13, not as good as the real OCD but it has improved things, I follow that with one that has a flat base (knock off of the push tamper maybe?) and I've not had any gushers for a while...
> 
> Once I have everything consistent will go back to the old tamper and work on proper technique


I use the Chinese copy too as well as gently tapping the sides of the PF to collapse the mound.

With the savings I spent it on a Perg Tamper Mk1


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## stevenh (May 15, 2014)

I have 3 tools all from HK, an OCD knock off, a push tamper knock off and a clip on funnel thing to keep things tidy... the clip on means that I can shake and tap without having to hold onto the funnel which is nice, all in all came in around £30 for everything and a 4 week delivery time


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

stevenh said:


> I have 3 tools all from HK, an OCD knock off, a push tamper knock off and a clip on funnel thing to keep things tidy... the clip on means that I can shake and tap without having to hold onto the funnel which is nice, all in all came in around £30 for everything and a 4 week delivery time


what's the clip on funnel thing? post a photo


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## stevenh (May 15, 2014)

This one:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332228694362


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

baring in mind I own a cheap Chinese tool and use it (mainly to speed up work flow when making drinks for lots of guests), I still maintain that it's better to learn to distribute properly.

I remember Gary saying that shake/swirl tap method even marginally increases ext%.

it's very easy and simple to do when you get the hang of it....


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## Spud36 (May 22, 2015)

Deansie26 said:


> We're using the same grinder, basket and bean Spud lol. What machine do you have? I've the volumetric Emc, I'm now getting 40 seconds from brew button being pressed. I take it your time is from when you lift the lever?


I am using a QM Verona hence the gaslight as I got some packed inside with the Machine. I start timing when I lift the lever. It was around 5 seconds before the coffee appeared. I need to practice on being able to repeat the same each time as the one I did later was not quite as good.


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

I had never heard of an OCD until I recently watched a video Mildred made and seen her use it, it does look very nice and am sure is great but never going to be in my budget. I think my tapping and finger swiping is not bad prior to tamping, (me thinks lol) was just caught out with the VST basket and didn't expect to have to make such a big grind adjustment. Perhaps there is also something to be said for sticking with a coffee bean you like for a while and not changing every week like I have been recently.

Thanks for the help and advice BTW!


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

here is a very short video showing how I distribute after grinding and before tamping


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## chanstheorem (Aug 9, 2016)

@stevenh That dosing clip thing looks useful. Does it fit a 58mm PF? Does it sit above the basket (not inside it)? Relatively well made?


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## stevenh (May 15, 2014)

chanstheorem said:


> @stevenh That dosing clip thing looks useful. Does it fit a 58mm PF? Does it sit above the basket (not inside it)? Relatively well made?


Sits perfectly just above the basket, not inside. Mines a 58mm and works fine, not bad for £7 and even comes with a tacky looking yellow box with some printed pics 

How you getting on with your new grinder? Interested in the papercup barista class?


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## chanstheorem (Aug 9, 2016)

Thanks for replying - I'm definitely ordering one. Currently using a ring that sits inside and is less than ideal. I've nailed filter coffee on the new grinder but yet to have made an espresso that I'm happy with. I'll answer your last question on the other thread.


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