# Genuinely feel like chucking all my coffee equipment



## Crema (Apr 13, 2015)

I'm new to the coffee game but all I can churn out are awful cups and I just buy cups of coffee when I'm out despite spending money on a 2007 OPV modded gaggia classic for 9 bar espresso.

I've ordered bean brothers beans, costa espresso beans. They smell amazing, but taste like nothing like I buy on the high street once I've tried to make something decent with them. I've adjusted the grinder and this thing gets ridiculously fine but I can't seem to get where I want with it. I have a 1zpresso JX hand grinder as I don't have the bucks for an electronic one. I truly believe the JX can achieve what's required however.

I weigh 18g out after grinding (previously 15g), I level then tamp.

I tried to get a screen read of the scale mid shot as the cup fills too quickly and it doesn't make it 30 seconds before overflowing. The flow from the portafilter is fast and there is a lot coming at once.

I just rinse it down the drain and consider selling my setup. Can anyone help me love this hobby again because it feels like more trouble than it's worth. Scale read below


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## 2cups (May 6, 2019)

Assuming the machine is functioning properly...

Can you get the grind any finer? Should easily be possible to choke a Classic with 18g of coffee, provided your grinder can go fine enough.

Or could be, the coffee, stale beans? What's the roast date. Might be worth trying another roaster, just to rule that out.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Right, using the same beans, same grinder, same coffee machine there are only 3 things left to master. Weight of beans, tamp pressure and fineness of grind. You can keep track of the first two and use the third to control everything else. Starting off with output, 18 gm in should sim at about 36 out. That is not written in stone and you can fine tune once you master. This should pour out in 25 to 35 seconds (30 is the mark to aim for). Stat counting as soon as you flick the switch. Use scales and a timer and aim for consistency Once you have the things I mentioned right, then you ought to be able to replicate. Do not be scared of grinding finer and finer. Report back........the beans you use also play a part. Stuff bought that is 'fresh' from a proper roaster is easier to control than mass market roasters


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

The JX will grind fine enough.

Don't overfill the basket (no shower screen or screw imprint should be visible on the puck after locking the portafilter in and removing it to check before starting the pump).

Use freshly roasted beans. I've never used Bean Brothers or Costa, I don't think the latter provide roast to order or fresh roasted unless you're lucky and happen to land on a fresh delivery into the store, no idea about Bean brothers.


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## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

1zpresso recommend a setting of .8 to 1 turn off zero for espresso Settings. Have you found zero on the grinder? Clean it out and then tighten the adjustment until the burrs lock (the handle won't glide freely). You can then loosen by one whole turn (should be 30 clicks) and see what flow rate you get - too fast tighten, too slow loosen. If you're using old beans you may not be able to grind fine enough - just buy some fresh beans.

Noticed from the pic you've removed the drip tray, are you getting water spray everywhere when you cut the pump?


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## rogher (Nov 22, 2020)

Go for a finer grind. Might be a long grind with a hand grinder!


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Are those scales set to grams or oz's ? it looks like oz's and the figure is 2.98 ?oz's.

reset and use grams.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> .the beans you use also play a part. Stuff bought that is 'fresh' from a proper roaster is easier to control than mass market roasters


 @dfk41 makes an important point. It's going to be hard to get a decent espresso from the beans you mention. Without passing judgement on your choice of beans it really is a GIGO situation.

Why not order some good quality beans from one of the site sponsors (other quality beans are available) let them rest for 14 days from the roasting date and then start again.

If you want to move to quality beans and don't have the patience to let them rest for 14 days, you can buy beans from Rave on Amazon. These will most certainly be close to or even past that 14 days post roast and you can have at it right away.


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## KingoftheHeath (Nov 22, 2019)

Make sure to elimate the beans as point of weakness . What you're describing sounds like my experience with supermarket beans. Do the ones you're using have a roast date on?


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Dave's 1zpresso review recommends JX Pro for espresso, although one may be able to espresso grind with JX. The JX Pro's recommended espresso setting is between 1.2 and 1.6 turns.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Don't give up!!! A few of us on this forum have had difficulties and disasters but we carry on trying to get the elusive amazing coffee 😂I have had some ups and downs over the past 3 months of learning and it is dispiriting at times when everyone else seems to 'get' it but it just doesn't work for you, despite trying to do everything right. As others said above, change the beans, change the grind. Accept it might not taste like coffee shop espresso but try to find something you like even if it's different. I have found Black Cat Chocolate Point and Twilight blend easy to get along with.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Emily is absolutely right, stick with it, it will all come good.


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## jonr2 (Jan 6, 2021)

Emily said:


> Don't give up!!! A few of us on this forum have had difficulties and disasters but we carry on trying to get the elusive amazing coffee 😂I have had some ups and downs over the past 3 months of learning and it is dispiriting at times when everyone else seems to 'get' it but it just doesn't work for you, despite trying to do everything right. As others said above, change the beans, change the grind. Accept it might not taste like coffee shop espresso but try to find something you like even if it's different. I have found Black Cat Chocolate Point and Twilight blend easy to get along with.


 +1 on trying some 'easy to use beans' - different beans seems to be my biggest achilles heel at the moment for things going wrong. I have tried the chocolate point too and didnt have to throw any of the shots away - some other beans i've had i havent been able to get a decent shot from.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Don't worry



Crema said:


> I just rinse it down the drain and consider selling my setup. Can anyone help me love this hobby again because it feels like more trouble than it's worth.


 It took me 2-3 months to get consistent nice coffee out of my set up. It's not a fast thing so don't give up. Use the same bean - an 'easy bean' as other have said. Not Costa, that's not helping you, forget them. May I suggest Crown and Canvas First Light and Altitude Captain's Roast (both have forum discounts and will save you money) or Rave's Fudge Blend is another cheaper end bean that's easy to get right.

Change those scales to grams, tamp firmly and evenly, grind fine enough to choke the machine and work back from there.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> Don't give up!!! A few of us on this forum have had difficulties and disasters but we carry on trying to get the elusive amazing coffee 😂I have had some ups and downs over the past 3 months of learning and it is dispiriting at times when everyone else seems to 'get' it but it just doesn't work for you, despite trying to do everything right. As others said above, change the beans, change the grind. Accept it might not taste like coffee shop espresso but try to find something you like even if it's different. I have found Black Cat Chocolate Point and Twilight blend easy to get along with.


 Cant say it better but yes this!🤷‍♂️ keep trying. It can only get better 🤣


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Dave's 1zpresso review recommends JX Pro for espresso, although one may be able to espresso grind with JX. The JX Pro's recommended espresso setting is between 1.2 and 1.6 turns.


 this is absolutely right...the burrs are the same, it's just the levels of adjustment. So you might find 1 click takes you too fast or too slow....if it does take you too slow, just updose a 1g to correct it. Trust me, you will get there....


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Its 100 % the beans imo. You wouldn't think it, but it is! Fresh quality beans is essential for home espresso, a mistake many make so don't worry you'll get it. 

Pretty much anything mainstream, costa/starbucks and any whole bean sold in supermarkets etc are not suitable for a good extraction! Like someone said grab some quality fresh beans from a site sponsor and you'll love it. My classic served me well for many years, but you have to feed it the good stuff


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## Colio07 (Mar 9, 2015)

I'd just echo what's been written above. Don't give up! You've got the kit to make good coffee, just focus on two additional things: good quality beans, and getting the right grind size (in your case, grinding finer). Once you've got that you'll be making good coffee!


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

Crema said:


> Can anyone help me love this hobby again because it feels like more trouble than it's worth.


 I'm going to agree and disagree with what others have already said. Freshly roasted speciality beans will make dialling in so much easier and if you choose the right beans you should enjoy nicer flavour from them.

On the other hand, you should still be able to get the extraction time up to a more acceptable range. I haven't yet come across a bean that I wasn't able to grind fine enough to get into the 25-35 second range. This is including cheap Lidl beans that have been left open to the air for over 6 months. If your grinder is capable of grinding fine enough then aim to get around 36g out in 25-30 seconds.


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

Get some beans that are known to be fresh as others have said. Then dial up the grind until you choke the classic and work back. It will come.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MarkHB said:


> On the other hand, you should still be able to get the extraction time up to a more acceptable range. I haven't yet come across a bean that I wasn't able to grind fine enough to get into the 25-35 second range.


 I'll 2nd that too even using a SGP or a SBE. A number of super market beans and the usual Lavazza that people drink via french press. The only aspect that differs on a Barista Express is that it's easier if more latitude is allowed on shot time - usually longer. Getting the right taste usually needed that.

One exception. Some one bought me a pack of these

https://www.bettys.co.uk/jamaica-blue-mountain-coffee-beans

The packaging was different but I noticed that grinder setting wasn't reducing the output.  Stopped when I was much finer than I usually go and tasted it. Given that enough water had been run through it tasted as would be expected from that bean.  Better than UK fresh roasted in some ways.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Lots of help, suggestions and encouragement here @Crema

Any feedback??


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## Crema (Apr 13, 2015)

Thanks for the input guys. I assumed because I never get a bad cup from the costa express machines it was a good place to start haha. I'm dialling up the grinder fineness to get to that choking point.

I'm taking the drip tray out because it's the only spot I can get my scales level. They're quite big and I end up making the numbers jolt when I use force to push the button to start the timer.

I'll look at the beans you guys have suggested and hopefully I can get somewhere haha

thanks for all the input!


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## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

I can only echo what others have said. Fresh beans and perseverance.

I had my coffee epiphany with my Gaggia Classic and a bag of coffee, long since discontinued from Extract Coffee (Fudge E Bear anyone) - single best espresso I have ever had and I've spend 10years and thousands of pounds trying to best it.....the point being with your kit and the advice given you will be able to kick Costa comfortably into your rear view.


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## Zorkin (Feb 5, 2021)

My experience suggests you can get an excellent result from good mainstream Italian coffee bags - I have tried a few Lavazza and Mauro / Diamme and they gave very enjoyable results and at a much lower price point ( about half price vs speciality roasters). It's worth persevering for sure.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

I am glad you are still working on it! I am trying different things (beans, recipes, techniques, timings etc) all the time. Sometimes I feel like you when it all goes wrong. It is probably one of the most difficult hobbies I have ever taken up and after more than three months, I am still learning! Don't know why I find it so challenging...😂


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> Don't know why I find it so challenging...😂


 You're not the only one, at least in this hobby I can blame equipment 🤣 normally I'd be a pro in my hobby having spent 45 minutes a day, every day, for 5 months 🤣 beans still not dialled in / extracted right lol


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tinkstar said:


> You're not the only one, at least in this hobby I can blame equipment 🤣 normally I'd be a pro in my hobby having spent 45 minutes a day, every day, for 5 months 🤣 beans still not dialled in / extracted right lol





Emily said:


> I am glad you are still working on it! I am trying different things (beans, recipes, techniques, timings etc) all the time. Sometimes I feel like you when it all goes wrong. It is probably one of the most difficult hobbies I have ever taken up and after more than three months, I am still learning! Don't know why I find it so challenging...😂


 It really shouldn't be this hard, what are the things that you are finding really difficult/most common type of malfunction?


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

MWJB said:


> It really shouldn't be this hard, what are the things that you are finding really difficult/most common type of malfunction?


 I know! 😂

I think I find my machines just a bit scary but I am getting more used to them. They are quite high maintenance with all the cleaning and descaling and things you need to do and remember not to do. Hard to get my head round everything. The instructions that came with mine were pretty hopeless. Then there are the beans and resting them and are they stale and how to store them. I keep a notebook of all my dialling in now and that helps. Such a lot to learn. I still don't think I am getting amazing coffee but I accept it is what it is, and drink it anyway.

Steaming the milk just adds another dimension of difficulty 😂

I am not someone who does things in a systematic and organised way and I can be quite clumsy which doesn't help. I am trying to learn to do things instinctively and by experience rather than rely on timing and measuring things too much. I can't really explain why I find it all so daunting but maybe if I say the worst job in the world for me would be something like a chef or barista then perhaps that sums it up.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Emily said:


> I know! 😂
> 
> I think I find my machines just a bit scary but I am getting more used to them. They are quite high maintenance with all the cleaning and descaling and things you need to do and remember not to do. Hard to get my head round everything. The instructions that came with mine were pretty hopeless. Then there are the beans and resting them and are they stale and how to store them. I keep a notebook of all my dialling in now and that helps. Such a lot to learn. I still don't think I am getting amazing coffee but I accept it is what it is, and drink it anyway.
> 
> ...


 If you buy beans & let them rest a week/10days, that's fine. Unless you're keeping them for months after resting, don't worry about staling.

Amazing anything is pretty rare, that's why it is amazing. How about we settle for "pretty nice", or "not horribly (insert fault)".

You need to learn:

what the right dose is for your basket?

What kind of ratio is going to work for you, the coffee you buy (espresso blends may work better at shorter ratios than single origins) & the drinks you make most often (strength).

The grind setting that gives the best flavour.

If you're going to try to do stuff instictively, there is only so much that can help. You can tell so little by brewing coffee by eye/feel, at best you can only be lucky some of the time.

You seem to be overcomplicating things, then as a result, find them daunting. Free yourself of the complication


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

MWJB said:


> It really shouldn't be this hard, what are the things that you are finding really difficult/most common type of malfunction?


 I have been using 20g consistently and getting 20g out consistently. I have gone from 1:30 down to 15 seconds, single dosing so I can change. I change grind setting once a day and I drink 3-4 a day 🤷‍♂️ so I have 4 attempts to test that grind.

I'm using a funnel to catch grinds, a wdt tool to avoid mountains and clumps.

I have a spinning level tamp

I watch for donuts or squirts and I think I have that under control thanks to the bpf. Extraction does seem even.

But I just do not get the tasting notes. I plan to go to a shop soon, order an espresso, and a latte to see if I can taste these notes. Is it my extraction, is it my expectation, is it me in process or lack of taste lol.

My latte art is getting there which is something 🤣


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

At a ratio of 1 to 1 I'd say the strength is masking some taste clarity and it's going to be in the nominal under extracted side which will possibly impact on how the coffee tastes too. Plus most notes On a bag are not representative of how coffee tastes with milk in it , this frustrated me a Little too when ordering . 
More roasters are adding notes with milk, James gourmet for example but most dont

if you enjoy the coffee tho dont stress


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

MWJB said:


> You seem to be overcomplicating things, then as a result, find them daunting. Free yourself of the complication 🙂


 Oh I definitely overthink things lol. I am getting a bit more relaxed about it now and have found a method of working that's ok for me.


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> But I just do not get the tasting notes. I plan to go to a shop soon, order an espresso, and a latte to see if I can taste these notes. Is it my extraction, is it my expectation, is it me in process or lack of taste lol.


 Don't get too caught up on tasting notes. Try lots of different beans of different roast levels from different roasters. Don't be afraid to pay a little bit more and also buy single origin. Brew the beans in a French press (it's easy to brew with) and drink it black. Instead of focusing on the notes, focus on how the flavour of each of the coffees differ from one another.

I very rarely can say that I taste notes that are exactly as described on the bag, but I can usually see where they are coming from with those descriptions.


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## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

MarkHB said:


> Don't get too caught up on tasting notes. Try lots of different beans of different roast levels from different roasters. Don't be afraid to pay a little bit more and also buy single origin. Brew the beans in a French press (it's easy to brew with) and drink it black. Instead of focusing on the notes, focus on how the flavour of each of the coffees differ from one another.
> 
> I very rarely can say that I taste notes that are exactly as described on the bag, but I can usually see where they are coming from with those descriptions.


 100% agree with the french press technique. This is the first thing I do when I get a new bean and potentially solves a lot of waste and anguish trying to get the right technique when the truth may be that I do not like the bean.

I'd use tasting notes as a suggestion rather than a target. Imagine a note was coriander... a percentage of the population registers that taste as soap, so you wouldn't be looking to emulate that.


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## Nightrider_1uk (Apr 26, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> But I just do not get the tasting notes.


 Cant seem to get the tasting notes either, but I don't drink neat espresso, I always make a large Latte, I'm happy if it taste's good.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tinkstar said:


> I have been using 20g consistently and getting 20g out consistently. I have gone from 1:30 down to 15 seconds, single dosing so I can change. I change grind setting once a day and I drink 3-4 a day 🤷‍♂️ so I have 4 attempts to test that grind.
> 
> I'm using a funnel to catch grinds, a wdt tool to avoid mountains and clumps.
> 
> ...


 You have to grind pretty coarse to get a tasty 1:1 shot, 15s would be the slower end of shot time, it will also look pretty horrible. Save yourself the fretting over even/donut extractions, 1:1 will be low extraction & by their nature "uneven", you can't see evenness anyway.

Fit a spouted PF and watch the scales, not the pour.

It's very likely that your coffee shops are not aiming for a low extraction 1:1 shot...if you need maximum concentration (for reasons I can't quite appreciate) then 1:1 is the way to do it, but I'd say that grinding fine & aiming for such a tight brew ratio is a recipe for regular disappointment. (I do enjoy, fast 1:1 shots from time to time - the biggest problem is getting extraction low enough & killing the pump before they overrun as it only takes 10-15s to pour).

Your more likely to get the notes at 1:3, maybe even longer for light roasted filter coffee brewed as espresso. I wouldn't say a 1:30 shot couldn't taste good, but if your 1:3 shot is taking over 40s you could benefit from grinding coarser.

Don't take the notes to literally, think simpler like yellow fruit rather than a specific fruit, think more about how much you like it...I have often had beans on a subscription that I wouldn't have picked, because of a tasting note...but still enjoyed the result if made well. Give each cup a score, just a simple liking score, then average that out after few, what do you get?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MarkHB said:


> Don't get too caught up on tasting notes. Try lots of different beans of different roast levels from different roasters. Don't be afraid to pay a little bit more and also buy single origin. Brew the beans in a French press (it's easy to brew with) and drink it black. Instead of focusing on the notes, focus on how the flavour of each of the coffees differ from one another.
> 
> I very rarely can say that I taste notes that are exactly as described on the bag, but I can usually see where they are coming from with those descriptions.


 French press is one of the hardest, certainly the most time consuming way to achieve good coffee. Espresso is at least twice as easy, maybe 5x as easy for people who can't make a good French press. It's just too easy to get silt in the cup at various stages & very hard to get a high extraction.


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

MWJB said:


> French press is one of the hardest, certainly the most time consuming way to achieve good coffee. Espresso is at least twice as easy, maybe 5x as easy for people who can't make a good French press. It's just too easy to get silt in the cup at various stages & very hard to get a high extraction.


 Not saying you're wrong, but for my tastes, using the James Hoffmann technique is the easiest way to get a good idea of bean flavour without getting any harsh flavours. It's my go to method when I'm struggling to dial in a bean. But I agree it may not be to everyone's tastes.


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## Crema (Apr 13, 2015)

Can anyone recommend me some easy beans to work with that are freshly roasted.

on a more positive note, I increased fineness slightly and got those narrow mouse tails and a slower extraction. The coffee was waaay less bitter and I felt I was getting somewhere!


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## KingoftheHeath (Nov 22, 2019)

Coffee compass - cherry cherry


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Crema said:


> Can anyone recommend me some easy beans to work with that are freshly roasted.
> 
> on a more positive note, I increased fineness slightly and got those narrow mouse tails and a slower extraction. The coffee was waaay less bitter and I felt I was getting somewhere!


 I am currently using black cat which a few people say are beginner friendly. Its a darker roast so if you prefer lighter I'd try something else.


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## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

Crema said:


> Can anyone recommend me some easy beans to work with that are freshly roasted.
> 
> on a more positive note, I increased fineness slightly and got those narrow mouse tails and a slower extraction. The coffee was waaay less bitter and I felt I was getting somewhere!


 Good to hear the results are getting better. I'd stick with a classic espresso blend until you are happy with what you produce. It should be cheaper and more forgiving to work with. Also, that blend extracted properly will result in the "classic" espresso flavour which most people can imagine the taste of, just must more tasty when you've nailed it!


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Crema said:


> Can anyone recommend me some easy beans to work with that are freshly roasted.


 I mentioned some in my post. Buy from forum sponsors, it's cheaper for you (use the forum discount code found in the forum section), it's great coffee and they help this forum exist for us to help each other.

Crown and Canvas - First Light

Altitude - Captain's Roast

LittleFin Roastery - El Fumo

BlackCat Coffee - Chocolate Point Blend

I haven't tried CoffeeByTheCasuals yet but if you ask them I'm sure they will guide you as to which of their coffees is 'easiest to get right'.

I've had all the others, I'm a relative newbie with beginner equipment (Sage BE) and I found the four I mentioned very easy to get right every time. I'm drinking El Fumo right now, I haven't had a bad cup, it's very forgiving.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

CocoLoco said:


> I mentioned some in my post. Buy from forum sponsors, it's cheaper for you (use the forum discount code found in the forum section), it's great coffee and they help this forum exist for us to help each other.
> 
> Crown and Canvas - First Light
> 
> ...


 @Emily we need to make a note of these 🤣


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> You seem to be overcomplicating things, then as a result, find them daunting. Free yourself of the complication 🙂


 I suspect I had an easier time as I based my coffee around a Sage BE manual  and joined a forum later. 🤣 I didn't even read the manual initially other than setting the grinder. I found things like if I put too much grinds in that the portafilter was harder to fit and that the machine might choke. I just pressed the button and let the machine get on with it. Then more manual reading. Razor tool to set dose and pressure gauge reading as they suggest. Wouldn't work but did if I ground to get it higher. At one point too little came out so hit the 2 shot button instead. Tasted nice with a bean I still use now. No scales and no timer. Turned out I was using a ratio of getting on for ~3.5 with a shot time of ~38 secs  when I checked after joining this forum. I was using the single. Several beans I have used were strong enough for a ~300ml americano. I didn't know at the time that volumetrics were working and keeping the shot rather constant. In search of even stronger coffee I increased the dose and found past some point it weakened but there was a point where the grinder setting didn't need changing and the volumetrics still worked. At one point pucks stuck to the shower screen but a touch more stopped that.

Useful things from the forum at the time - weighing beans in. It's hard work maintaining a dose from a timed grinder but can be done if the same bean is used all of the time. Another - don't worry about static clumps. However Sage grinders were producing better output than photo's I had seen on here from other grinders. Also a nice central heap which will have helped prevent channelling. I generally only had that when the machine was near choked. I took no notice what so ever of 1 to 2 in 30sec comments, there were loads of them on here at the time and tuned any bean I tried to get a drink I liked.  Not possible with some. Just boring, similar what ever is done with them. Some said use more grinds in the double. Too strong if I tuned as I usually did and different taste.  Monsooned is an unusual bean and many may not like it. It's also good at messing grinders up when dark roasted.

Then I bought a DB and nothing worked any more. The razor tool was especially disappointing. I needed to use more coffee so some baskets I bought to get a bigger range were a waste of money. Each upgrade has had it's problems.  Only thing to do is work at it until they aren't problems. In my case as I used fixed 30 sec shots and check weigh them consistency in grinds prep gets rather important. It's far easier to weigh out. I don't generally stir grinds as on many beans it produces light clumps that are worse than what comes out of the grinder - even a light roast I am using at the moment. I'm also rather careful about moving grinds around to get them level before tamping. I'm currently brewing in a way that really stresses grinds prep so am weighing out. I'll stick at it but as it produces stronger coffee I might just decide it's better to use more grinds and a larger basket. Drips for 15sec and a 1 to 2 ratio in ~30sec. It produces a similar taste to my normal brewing which would use a ratio of ~3 but the various tastes the bean can have aren't so controllable.  It was a Decent video that caused me to try it.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

All coffee should be just as easy to work with really, it's the same process for all of them. Only difference is some might be better at 30 second shot times and 1:2 ratios or similar than others. Also lighter roasts can look bad, sometimes really bad coming out of a bottomless portafilter, the crema can be thin and light and you can think the shot is not right before you even taste it, couple that with being unable to pick out tasting notes or just not agreeing with the roaster and you end up chasing your tail. With darker roasts you get shots that look better and give better results playing by the rules, they also might be a bit more versatile and work at coarser grinds which helps when there's a limit on how fine a grinder can go.


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## Fiyo (Oct 25, 2020)

KingoftheHeath said:


> Coffee compass - cherry cherry


 I'm following with interest as like some others I am still not there taste wise after 4 months (though it i am getting more consistent results as my prep improves) I have tried Brighton lanes from coffee compass and chocolate point from Black cat amongst others as thought I was best to start off with dark or medium roasts to replicate the sort of black coffee I enjoy pre espresso. I fancy the description of their cherry cherry blend but wondered if it will be too light roasted. Is it a lot lighter than Brighton lanes or Black cat chocolate Point? The only lighter roasted beans I have tried were Ethiopian from Monkey works and I really couldn't drink it, way to "flowery tea" tasting for me.


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## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

I can vouch for the Cherry Cherry. One of my favourites and have some on the go at the moment


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> we need to make a note of these 🤣


 I was making a note, then read your post 😂

I would like to try some of these. I also really like Black Cat Twilight. I couldn't seem to do much wrong with that (as espresso anyway).


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## KingoftheHeath (Nov 22, 2019)

Fiyo said:


> I'm following with interest as like some others I am still not there taste wise after 4 months (though it i am getting more consistent results as my prep improves) I have tried Brighton lanes from coffee compass and chocolate point from Black cat amongst others as thought I was best to start off with dark or medium roasts to replicate the sort of black coffee I enjoy pre espresso. I fancy the description of their cherry cherry blend but wondered if it will be too light roasted. Is it a lot lighter than Brighton lanes or Black cat chocolate Point? The only lighter roasted beans I have tried were Ethiopian from Monkey works and I really couldn't drink it, way to "flowery tea" tasting for me.


It's not at all light, nothing from Coffee Compass is. Cherry cherry is lighter than Brighton Lanes, but I would never describe it as light on its own


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dutchy101 said:


> I can vouch for the Cherry Cherry. One of my favourites and have some on the go at the moment
> 
> View attachment 56317


 That be medium perhaps medium light...but how I like many of my coffees....looks nice


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## Fiyo (Oct 25, 2020)

KingoftheHeath said:


> Fiyo said:
> 
> 
> > I'm following with interest as like some others I am still not there taste wise after 4 months (though it i am getting more consistent results as my prep improves) I have tried Brighton lanes from coffee compass and chocolate point from Black cat amongst others as thought I was best to start off with dark or medium roasts to replicate the sort of black coffee I enjoy pre espresso. I fancy the description of their cherry cherry blend but wondered if it will be too light roasted. Is it a lot lighter than Brighton lanes or Black cat chocolate Point? The only lighter roasted beans I have tried were Ethiopian from Monkey works and I really couldn't drink it, way to "flowery tea" tasting for me.
> ...


 Thanks thats good to know Will definitely give it a try


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Fiyo said:


> The only lighter roasted beans I have tried were Ethiopian from Monkey works and I really couldn't drink it, way to "flowery tea" tasting for me


 But that is the KSP for Ethiopians. You got what you asked for.


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## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> That be medium perhaps medium light...but how I like many of my coffees....looks nice


 Yes it's a firm favourite in the household. Getting a lot more out of it with the new Solo grinder as well. Like trying it again for the first time but a lot better


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## Fiyo (Oct 25, 2020)

MWJB said:


> But that is the KSP for Ethiopians. You got what you asked for.


 Not a very helpful post. They were actually part of a free 3 bean type tasting selection I was kindly sent by the roaster to experience the different taste of different beans. I didn't know I wouldn't like them prior to trying them. We all have to start somewhere


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Fiyo said:


> Not a very helpful post. They were actually part of a free 3 bean type tasting selection I was kindly sent by the roaster to experience the different taste of different beans. I didn't know I wouldn't like them prior to trying them. We all have to start somewhere


 It is perhaps helpful in the fact that it doesn't mean that you/your kit, or prep are inconsistent, or lacking.

In my experience, origin is the biggest driver in how much I like a coffee & you can't make all of them meet your preference.

Sure, it took me years to finally accept Ethiopia is one of my least favoured origins.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@MWJB Makes a good point...There's Origin and bean type..So there could be I dunno 60 origins, from Brazil, Nicaragua, Mexico, Kenya, Sumatra etc.. Within that there are many types of beans catuaii, yellow bourbon, bourbon, typica, munduo novo, sl 28, sl 32 etc.. etc.. Possibly 30 or 40 varietals. Then within each area you get regions and Microclimates within regions for beans. e.g. Brazil, has 14 coffee growing regions

After that you get the different processing methods e.g. natural,. Pulped natural, Honey process, semi washed, dry etc.. etc..

A region typically has coffee varietals that grows best, but Jamaica Blue mountain root stock can be grown in Australia, and it's similar but different (cheaper too).

So just an approximation 60 origins x 12 regions x 20 types of bean x 7 processing method...gives literally 1000s of combinations...I won't like them all, but by god I'd like to try as many of them as I can. The range of flavours is truly staggering.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Crema said:


> I'm new to the coffee game but all I can churn out are awful cups and I just buy cups of coffee when I'm out despite spending money on a 2007 OPV modded gaggia classic for 9 bar espresso.
> 
> I've ordered bean brothers beans, costa espresso beans. They smell amazing, but taste like nothing like I buy on the high street once I've tried to make something decent with them. I've adjusted the grinder and this thing gets ridiculously fine but I can't seem to get where I want with it. I have a 1zpresso JX hand grinder as I don't have the bucks for an electronic one. I truly believe the JX can achieve what's required however.
> 
> ...


 How you getting on? Still brewing away?


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## BobbyAxelrod (Jan 12, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @MWJB Makes a good point...There's Origin and bean type..So there could be I dunno 60 origins, from Brazil, Nicaragua, Mexico, Kenya, Sumatra etc.. Within that there are many types of beans catuaii, yellow bourbon, bourbon, typica, munduo novo, sl 28, sl 32 etc.. etc.. Possibly 30 or 40 varietals. Then within each area you get regions and Microclimates within regions for beans. e.g. Brazil, has 14 coffee growing regions
> 
> After that you get the different processing methods e.g. natural,. Pulped natural, Honey process, semi washed, dry etc.. etc..
> 
> ...


 That makes every coffee journey unique ^^ Every step one can try something new, or just enjoy a known and liked flavour. The classical exploitation vs exploration question haha


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Crema have you checked out one of @MrShades PID kits...he is doing a lot to make the Gaggias as good as they can be


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## Crema (Apr 13, 2015)

Hey guys. Got the chocolate point blend. Smells amazing and I haven't even opened it.

Before I get pulling shots, should I start my timer as I push the pump button or as the coffee starts to emerge from the portafilter and what yield should I aim for in this set timeframe. Many thanks. I'm terrible with ratios.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Crema said:


> Hey guys. Got the chocolate point blend. Smells amazing and I haven't even opened it.
> 
> Before I get pulling shots, should I start my timer as I push the pump button or as the coffee starts to emerge from the portafilter and what yield should I aim for in this set timeframe. Many thanks. I'm terrible with ratios.


 Start the timer as you start the pump, stop the timer as you stop the pump.

You aim for the ratio, not the time, you just record the time for completeness.

Aim 1:3 to start with. Use grind to steer the flavour balance.


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## Crema (Apr 13, 2015)

So, when you say 1:3 ratio. I weigh out 18g, I aim for a 54g yield ideally within the 20-30 second mark


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Don't worry about it too much adjust finer or coarser and adjust ratio based on taste rather than the time it took to get the shot. You might, for example, grind at one setting and pull a 1:3 in 35 seconds and using the same grind setting get a 1:2 in less than 30 seconds, there's no need to alter the grind setting to get them both in the same time but you might want to alter grind setting to alter how it tastes (which will alter shot time at the same ratio). You can by all means aim for a shot time of about 30 seconds if you want and it might help you get things in the right ballpark but it equally may not.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Crema said:


> So, when you say 1:3 ratio. I weigh out 18g, I aim for a 54g yield ideally within the 20-30 second mark


 My advice is personally start very fine, almost choking the machine. If you have the patience taste the outcome at 1:1 1:2 1:3 then adjust the grind setting coarser.

I drink 4 coffees a day normally. So I am doing this to see how it can take different.

I have had 1 or 2 really nice shots but it was liquorice 🤷‍♂️ I love it, but it'd not the notes, so am I still going on my journey coarser.

I also ignore my shot if I notice the time was especially quick, and I noticed there was channeling. So I might keep the same grind setting for the next day.

I am having fun with this method. Its slow. But I have drunk all my drinks, never wasted one and get to practice my latte art 😁


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Crema said:


> Got the chocolate point blend. Smells amazing and I haven't even opened it.


 I hope you get on better with this. I am on my second bag and have got it tasting really nice with every shot. It has only taken me nearly 4 months to get to this point so don't despair! 😂


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## antinwales (Jan 16, 2021)

I'm late to this thread, but it struck a chord with me.

I'm 2 months in, and for the money spent (£1000!) it's been (bean!) a disappointment.

For me personally, speciality coffee has not shown the step up in quality of craft beer, homemade bacon, sourdough, chocolate, home smoking, or in fact any other foodstuff. (Had a Delonghi B2C for 12 years.)
I was a teenage wuss, but I've even managed to get into weightlifting at home in my late 40s.
I can "do" hobbies.

We mostly drink Americano, and my ladywife is now getting pissed off with it being at best drinkable, at worst horrible.
I can see we're getting more flavour, and different flavours, but rarely nice flavours.

Even when I did find one I liked - Black Cat Twilight - when I bought a kg it was very different (nowhere near as nice) and it's still sitting there, glowering at me.
The Coffee Compass dark selection was decent.

[Am hitting 18g in, 38g out in 30 seconds, grinder is aligned. Temperature 90C, 10-11bar.]

Mind you, I do like the espresso output. The V60 stuff was horrible.
I spent £35 with Bailies on their lighter stuff - floral, flowery. Like tea. Totally awful.
Why do the descriptions of each bean by all roasters spend 500 words telling you about the farmer, the weather, the school, Old Uncle Pepe, and 3 words on what it might taste like (but probably won't).
If you read a beer or wine or bourbon description you might not get it 100%, but you mostly will.

I have bought a bag of Lavassa Intenso (their darkest) in the cupboard to see if it's speciality coffee we don't like.

Thank you, that was very therapeutic.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

antinwales said:


> [Am hitting 18g in, 38g out in 30 seconds, grinder is aligned. Temperature 90C, 10-11bar.]


 I don't want to sound condescending, but I think this might be part of your problem. This seems too rigid a set of parameters, especially sticking to 30s. How would you describe the shots you are mostly getting, do they have a consistent fault?



antinwales said:


> Mind you, I do like the espresso output. The V60 stuff was horrible.


 V60 often does better with lighter roasted coffee, but you need to control the pour rate.



antinwales said:


> We mostly drink Americano


 When you say Americano, how much liquid are your final drinks? I'm just wondering whether, if the drinks are on the longer side, an alternative brew method might b an idea (not a replacement for espresso/V60, but maybe as a simpler, safer bet for at least drinkable coffee)?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@antinwales In addition to Marks comments



what is it you're not liking about the coffee you are making, too bitter, acid, other


are the americanos with milk or without


what beans are you using (origins)


what equipment have you got


what grinder


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## antinwales (Jan 16, 2021)

MWJB said:


> I don't want to sound condescending, but I think this might be part of your problem. This seems too rigid a set of parameters, especially sticking to 30s. How would you describe the shots you are mostly getting, do they have a consistent fault?
> 
> V60 often does better with lighter roasted coffee, but you need to control the pour rate.
> 
> When you say Americano, how much liquid are your final drinks? I'm just wondering whether, if the drinks are on the longer side, an alternative brew method might b an idea (not a replacement for espresso/V60, but maybe as a simpler, safer bet for at least drinkable coffee)?


 i) Don't worry about seeming condescending - I work in IT support, so am condescending all day. If you dish it out you have to be able to take it. 😀
All those figures are approx, and will change a little. I just meant that my production is in the right ballpark.
The problem isn't "too bitter" or "too sour" - just "How is this 'better' coffee? I preferred the B2C output"

ii) I think the LSOD ones aren't for me, I can move on. The V60 will come in handy somewhere (am going to try a coffee cocktail with it at the weekend).

iii) Americano would be about 45g coffee added to 125g hot water.
I could get the filter machine out of the garage.
It does have the advantage of being able to be put on a timer, so I could go and get it, and be back in bed, in 90 seconds.
Do you want to buy an espresso machine and grinder?


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## antinwales (Jan 16, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @antinwales In addition to Marks comments
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 - It's not a particular taste problem, just not getting it. I'm not sure I could tell bitter from acid anyway. If you drink a can of John Smiths, then a craft IPA, you don't know *why *it's better, you just know it is.

- Black

- All sorts. Mostly darker. Currently Extract 'Espresso' - I can sort of get the fruityness, but it's not overly pleasant. 
Before that Bailies Umbra - just not nice. Before that the disappointing batch of Twilight. Before that the decent Coffee Compass dark range although, again, we're not going "Wow, where have you been all my life?"

- Lelit Grace / Eureka Mignon Specialita. V60.

Actually, saying that, the teenager thought the V60-made Bailies was "nice". I just thought it no better than from the ancient filter machine.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@antinwales it might be worth steering away from "espresso coffees" and just getting some *really good quality* medium roast Brazilian... It will do a wide range of coffees including espresso, filter etc... Then go back to basics and experiment with dose, ratio and temp on that one bean until you can start to control the results.


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## 8144 (Oct 9, 2014)

antinwales said:


> i) Don't worry about seeming condescending - I work in IT support, so am condescending all day. If you dish it out you have to be able to take it. 😀
> All those figures are approx, and will change a little. I just meant that my production is in the right ballpark.
> The problem isn't "too bitter" or "too sour" - just "How is this 'better' coffee? I preferred the B2C output"
> 
> ...


 From what I can gather your issue is with the notion of "speciality" coffee and it not living up to your expectations from what you want from a coffee. Perhaps a simple experiment of finding a decent local coffee shop and trying what they make and then trying to replicate it will help? I struggle to believe that you won't find something you like as there's so much variety, although this is often a problem in itself.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

antinwales said:


> Do you want to buy an espresso machine and grinder?


 Ha ha, thanks but no...already have too much gear. 

I don't know the B2C you have (or anything much about any of them), but I wouldn't be surprised if it brews at a longer brew ratio.

At 18:170g finally in the cup, you have room to pull somewhat longer shots (maybe try 1:3.5) to make an Americano from. This can allow higher extractions (less sour), also a bit weaker & easier to pick up notes. You might need to grind a little coarser & taste everything from 20s upwards.

Also, maybe a Clever dripper fast brew 36:340g might be worth a try? Draw down into a server, mix, then divide between cups?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

antinwales said:


> Thank you, that was very therapeutic.


 Thanks for making me laugh.

You seem to be stuck in web wonderland were coffee is exact - 1 to 2 and 30sec land. Sticking to 30sec is not a bad idea but variations around that wont have dramatic effects - it's why people weigh out as the shot is being pulled. Ratio tends to have the main effect. Say 10sec change in time up or down and that can too.

You need to generate and taste several ratios. They needn't be precise to see what happens to taste. Say 2, 2.5 and 3 but I did use one bean that needed a ratio of 5 to show any signs of life. For me I usually find over 3 doesn't suite. 2 is unusual. It's ok with one I am using at the moment.

You don't say which machine or grinder which may influence how you need to work.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> I hope you get on better with this. I am on my second bag and have got it tasting really nice with every shot. It has only taken me nearly 4 months to get to this point so don't despair! 😂


 What are you actually tasting? I am currently on a liquorice flavour 🤦‍♂️

Just had a play date for the kids a d the other dad said wow this is a really smooth sipping coffee 🤣 but when asked what it tastes like he just said coffee 🤦‍♂️


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

ajohn said:


> Thanks for making me laugh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 This made me laugh, I also feel much of the pain you sense.

I wonder if my taste buds are not mature enough to taste anything.

I'm the guy that drinks Red wine and says, yea it's red, it's dry, it's watery and wet... it will do 🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️


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## Uriel4953 (Dec 1, 2019)

I really struggled when I started out and went through similar frustrations.

For me it was the fact that I have no idea what the difference between bitter and sour is, so I had 0 idea whether I was over or under extracting.

My hints tips having gone through it myself would be.

Get a simple blended coffee to start out, your not trying to create the worlds best expresso in the first month of owning your machine, your trying to get something out that doesn't make you want to throw it down the sink. I went with Rave signature blend you will want at least 500g of you given coffee to start out.

Fresh beans. Buy fresh beans from a roaster. Beans start to dry out after being roasted and the longer they been on a shelf/in a warehouse the harder it is going to be to get something decent.

Set aside a few hours to play with your machine and grinder / waste a ton of coffee. I was coffee blind when I started and the only way I managed to get anything decent out was to stand there for ages making cup after cup till I got something drinkable and then try to replicate it. Only ever change 1 variable at once. don't trying to change multiple things you will just get overwhelmed.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

@antinwales A great way, however "bitter", to share your experience. I did enjoy reading it 😀.

Lelit Grace seems a capable machine, the PID should help the temperature stability.

What surprised me, although no comments were made with regard to it, was the temperature you mentioned. 90 deg C is on the low temperature for me. I pull my shots at 94 deg C.

Have you tried to raise the temperature to 94/94 deg C and see how much the taste changes?

This might have been discussed, but do you have control over the OPV (overpressure valve, if there is one) of the machine to set it at 9 or 9.5 bar?

I hope you find the taste of good coffee. I liked the analogy with beer and wine, but doing experiments for living, they are done at extremely strict conditions with attention to any tiny details, the investment doesn't allow for even marginal error.

Here we are dealing with too many parameters, even difficult to list all of them in single go.


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## antinwales (Jan 16, 2021)

John Yossarian said:


> @antinwalest 😀
> 
> Have you tried to raise the temperature to 94/94 deg C and see how much the taste changes?
> 
> ...


 Thanks John

I dropped to 90C as Twilight recommended there - 94 would be normal so will push it up.

OPV very difficult to adjust on the Lelit (pressure is set so high so ESE pods work, grr). I did have a time manually reducing each shot's pressure via the wand valve, but was dissuaded. Incorrect pressure can't be helping.

Yes, beer and wine are quite simple processes, and made by trained professionals. Nobody tries to make bourbon with instructions off a forum.

My grumble isn't that I can't get anything decent out. I'll accept it's sometimes better than Lidl beans in a B2C. It's just not as better as I'd expected. I'll


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## antinwales (Jan 16, 2021)

Tinkstar said:


> I'm the guy that drinks Red wine and says, yea it's red, it's dry, it's watery and wet... it will do


 @Uriel4953- to be honest, for 3x the cost in kit and beans, I kinda was hoping for the world's best espresso. Or something noticeably better.

@Tinkstar - I can do a bit of the "I'm getting blueberries, paraffin, tears" in other foodstuffs - that's what I'm after! - but I seem to find them disgusting in coffee. Bailies LSOL range seemed an inexplicable attempt to make something nice (coffee) taste like something disgusting (floral tea)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

antinwales said:


> @Uriel4953- to be honest, for 3x the cost in kit and beans, I kinda was hoping for the world's best espresso. Or something noticeably better.
> 
> @Tinkstar - I can do a bit of the "I'm getting blueberries, paraffin, tears" in other foodstuffs - that's what I'm after! - but I seem to find them disgusting in coffee. Bailies LSOL range seemed an inexplicable attempt to make something nice (coffee) taste like something disgusting (floral tea)


 Just because you enjoy craft beer, doesn't mean you will enjoy all coffee. Me I love a floral , fruity filter coffee, but I can't stomach the craft beer my friends love. I'm much more of a Tuborg guy.

Re the Baillies, if it was described by the roaster as a floral light brew and you described it as a floral light brew then perhaps you just don't like it, no shame in that.

Do you actually enjoy espresso from cafe's and your b2c or were they milk based drinks ?

Lastly your analogy about something nice " coffee" like a lot of the other things you list , coffee is not one thing, one taste, often people ascribe coffee to taste like the more prevalent larger chain type mass produced coffee, when it can be lots of things. Same with me and me turborg...

A fair analogy might be someone making their own artisan bread and asking , why it doesnt Taste like mighty white.


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## antinwales (Jan 16, 2021)

@Mrboots2u - re: Bailies, of course. That's my point.

We enjoyed a decade of Americano from the B2C. I liked the espresso, but felt the grind wasn't fine enough to really get it. All beans came out similar, and upgrading grinder & machine has definitely made the beans seem different. Just not as "better" as we'd hoped.
Rarely drink coffee Out as we're mean.

There will always be a place for Mighty White - lots of people enjoy it on a bacon sandwich - but an artisan bread is clearly better. No one buys artisan bread and asks why it's not like Mighty White. But there won't be many people who will prefer the MW, surely?
I appreciate that this is a forum for the people who do get it (confirmation bias) and I'm complaining about the emperor's clothes to people who think he looks very nice.

The Tuborg simile is probably the closest to the explanation.
It's not just you - there are others. I do know such people, and it seems incomprehensible to me. Much as not liking floral coffee must seem incomprehensible to you (and other people I know who can't believe I've not got with the programme).


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> What are you actually tasting? I am currently on a liquorice flavour 🤦‍♂️
> 
> Just had a play date for the kids a d the other dad said wow this is a really smooth sipping coffee 🤣 but when asked what it tastes like he just said coffee 🤦‍♂️


 It tastes of coffee mostly to me but that's not a bad thing 😂. I can get cocoa powder ( I'll take that as being close enough to chocolate) and maybe something reminiscent of hazelnuts. I can't get fudge but that to me is always something incredibly sweet and this isn't. I think I understand your liquorice flavour. Going to be looking for that now. Tbh, it doesn't actually taste of any of those things but there is a hint of something .....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

antinwales said:


> @Mrboots2u - re: Bailies, of course. That's my point.
> 
> We enjoyed a decade of Americano from the B2C. I liked the espresso, but felt the grind wasn't fine enough to really get it. All beans came out similar, and upgrading grinder & machine has definitely made the beans seem different. Just not as "better" as we'd hoped.
> Rarely drink coffee Out as we're mean.
> ...


 My mum bought Artisan and asked why it didnt taste like mighty white 

I get why people dont like floral coffee, i cant drink it all the time, i always nearly have a comfort blend or Brazilian to turn to .

I am off an age when my dad used for home brew in the 70's Christ that was awful.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> It tastes of coffee mostly to me but that's not a bad thing 😂. I can get cocoa powder ( I'll take that as being close enough to chocolate) and maybe something reminiscent of hazelnuts. I can't get fudge but that to me is always something incredibly sweet and this isn't. I think I understand your liquorice flavour. Going to be looking for that now. Tbh, it doesn't actually taste of any of those things but there is a hint of something .....


 Well you are closer than me.. its liquorice or something coffee like from a jar... I will keep trying.

Well done you!!!

I can do art consistently though now 🤣


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I think flavour notes set such an expectation...it's usually very subtle. I do suspect some roasters do things to try and get those flavour notes...roasting lighter and lighter in a "fruitless" 😉 hunt for the flavours and sometimes the coffee ends up not tasting of ....coffee. Then those same flavours might be replicated on the packaging...for the consumer to try and taste.

I want my coffee to taste like coffee first.... I had one coffee (sadly all gone now), that in the green smelt sort of fruity....it smelt quite amazing really. The tasting notes were: Cherry, dark chocolate and blueberry with a velvety body. ...when I roasted it, it smelt strongly of dark chocolate and black cherry. When drinking it there was a good rich coffee taste, with that dark chocolate note and the black cherry was there somewhere. The smell and taste made you think of drinking a coffee with a big slice of Black Forest gâteaux in front of you...and you could almost taste it. It wasn't a sweet coffee though, I tried blending with a Brazilian, but it took too much away.

Rarely do all the tasting notes come through.....I have a coffee just arrived Daterra Blossom, tasting notes Jasmine, raspberry, mango, nuts, caramel, honey sweetness...cupping at 88-89. Will I be able to get all those notes...probably not.

The key thing to remember...the flavour notes were from a cupping roast...which is also used to check for defects. It's usually not the sort of roast you would use in an espresso machine and is not done in a big roaster (which the coffee in your bag is done by), but a sample roaster


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## antinwales (Jan 16, 2021)

And after saying that, Ive just really enjoyed Extract's "Cast Iron" espresso.
Strong and coffee-like, but with 'other things' going on to keep it interesting.

Great latte art @Tinkstar - I need to look into that next. We don't have many (oat) milky drinks, but when they do, I steam the milk in the cup and add the espresso in on top (single boiler machine and lack of knowledge).

@Mrboots2u - (not for a long time) Around halfway through my parents' visit, my dad will sign "Do you have beer that tastes like beer?"

@DavecUK - coffee seems to be the hardest product to describe. Tastes are very subjective, and training helps, but it works adequately elsewhere.
Agreed that flavours apparent in the gentle world of cupping aren't going to translate in the aggressive world of 10bar espresso.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> I think flavour notes set such an expectation...it's usually very subtle. I do suspect some roasters do things to try and get those flavour notes...roasting lighter and lighter in a "fruitless" 😉 hunt for the flavours and sometimes the coffee ends up not tasting of ....coffee. Then those same flavours might be replicated on the packaging...for the consumer to try and taste.


 I find lighter drinks make detecting tastes a lot easier. It's why I stick with americano and don't always use the same sized basket. I find some beans just have a taste - end of story. Lighter roasts clearly offer more in this direction. I also feel that some tasting notes apply to a series all together rather than some specific flavour that might be noticed while it's being drunk. Like most things coffee related I think tasting has now gone OTT as well. When I started it was easy to find a web page that started at the basics along with what they meant and also explained the difficulties in going further.  One I always remember is herbal - ok but what herb. Earthy is another one - it's a style of taste.

I'd agree entirely with your comments about that wonderful bean. Honey sweetness - really especially along with the rest. Rasberries are not sweet but a taste similar to sweetened rasberries may still be possible. I've just finished a batch that mentions white sugar. If I couple that with lychee yes maybe but not on it's own.

The thing I am finding disturbing with roasters is lack of roast details and also lack of darker roasts. Having tried several suppliers of dark roast and noted variability I can only conclude that medium and lighter is way easier for them to do. Some just can't reliably produce dark roasts so don't. Seems to be more of these around of late. The excuse seems to be roast taste creeping in rather than the bean itself. Essentially rubbish with some of them and may be on all really.


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## Crema (Apr 13, 2015)

I get a slow start which looks promising but 5/10 seconds in, it runs really fast again which is troubling to decipher what's happening haha. Coffee still tastes like arse 🤣


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## _HH_ (Oct 10, 2018)

Crema said:


> I get a slow start which looks promising but 5/10 seconds in, it runs really fast again


 Hmm. It sounds as though if the shot is rapidly running faster you are getting some channelling. This is where there are weak spots of low density in the coffee puck, and water preferentially goes through those points. This causes a horrible combination of both over-extraction of the channelled areas, giving you very bitter flavours, as well as under-extraction of the other areas, giving very sour flavours.

Are you doing anything to distribute your coffee in the portafilter like stirring or declumping it? Might be worth having a look at your puck prep.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Crema said:


> I get a slow start which looks promising but 5/10 seconds in, it runs really fast again which is troubling to decipher what's happening haha. Coffee still tastes like arse 🤣


 OK, so can you tell us what the ratio & weights are, ad how long the pump runs to get there?


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## 8144 (Oct 9, 2014)

Crema said:


> I get a slow start which looks promising but 5/10 seconds in, it runs really fast again which is troubling to decipher what's happening haha. Coffee still tastes like arse 🤣


 Do you have the option of using a naked portafilter? This might help with any prep issues you might be having.


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## antinwales (Jan 16, 2021)

condy01 said:


> Do you have the option of using a naked portafilter? This might help with any prep issues you might be having.


 I use mine all the time. Showed that (Lelit Grace's limited) pre-infusion worthwhile, as is WDT and a bit of tapping.

And, to be fair, the Extract Cast Iron Espresso espresso I had earlier was very good. 🤯


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## 8144 (Oct 9, 2014)

antinwales said:


> I use mine all the time. Showed that (Lelit Grace's limited) pre-infusion worthwhile, as is WDT and a bit of tapping.
> 
> And, to be fair, the Extract Cast Iron Espresso espresso I had earlier was very good. 🤯


 I also use a distribution tool, think I picked it up from Amazon for less then £20.00 so worth the investment. Glad to hear you've found something you enjoy! Could be worth getting a subscription of that each month and then just exploring other options, at least that way you know you'll be getting something you enjoy.


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## 8144 (Oct 9, 2014)

antinwales said:


> I use mine all the time. Showed that (Lelit Grace's limited) pre-infusion worthwhile, as is WDT and a bit of tapping.
> 
> And, to be fair, the Extract Cast Iron Espresso espresso I had earlier was very good. 🤯


 which other roasters have you been buying from?


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## Crema (Apr 13, 2015)

I've got a clump tool and leveller. I give a little stab or two to break up clumps then level it before tamping it firmly with a tamp


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## Crema (Apr 13, 2015)

One thing that annoys me the most is there's a bean to cup machine at work hooked up to a card machine. Diddy little thing. Takes it literally 8 seconds to dump a shot and it tastes amazing yet I can't make anything remotely tasty hahah


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Crema said:


> One thing that annoys me the most is there's a bean to cup machine at work hooked up to a card machine. Diddy little thing. Takes it literally 8 seconds to dump a shot and it tastes amazing yet I can't make anything remotely tasty hahah


 How many 8second shots do you make? You can make drinks different to the B2C, but you can probably make them somewhat like it too, if you can work out what it actually does.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Crema said:


> One thing that annoys me the most is there's a bean to cup machine at work hooked up to a card machine. Diddy little thing. Takes it literally 8 seconds to dump a shot and it tastes amazing yet I can't make anything remotely tasty hahah


 Don't take this the wrong way but do you coffee that tastes like coffee or costa/Starbucks? This may have been covered but A where are you and B what do you normally drink/enjoy drinking?


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