# Getting K10 PB dialled in



## aMb (Oct 25, 2014)

Hi all,

I've upgraded from a Vario to K10 PB and having a bit of an issue trying to get it dialled in.

With the Vario, using Rave Signature I would generally aim for 19g in and 30g (i.e. 1.6x) out within 27-30s and this produced a good tasting shot that I liked and would typically need to make some small adjustments depending on the bean age.

I used the same with the K10 as a starting point and its been producing a really bitter/sour tasting shot, so I've tried experimenting with:

- lowering the dose to 16g but still using a 1.6x extraction and its still bitter/sour

- keeping the 19g dose but aiming for a 2.0x extraction and it still takes bitter/sour

I'm wondering if there's a reason why it's proving difficult getting a good tasting shot with the K10 using the same reference points that I used with the Vario and the extraction ratio? Does anyone have any advice please if there's a better way to get a large conical dialled in?

I'll keep experimenting as I've only pulled about 10 shots so far but I'm hoping for some better shots than the Vario!

Thanks


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Is it new ?

How much coffee has been through the burrs ?


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## aMb (Oct 25, 2014)

Yes it is new (I think some beans have been run through it but only for calibration). I've put 1 kg of stale beans through in attempt to season the burrs, but I'm guessing that may not be enough?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

On my k10 conic I set 0 on the dial as burrs just off touching and then I'm back between 20 and 25 for espresso.


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## awcoffee (Aug 18, 2014)

I had Alchemy run 5 kg through then I used a further 2 kg of stale from Rave before I went onto the Signature. Advice was that you needed a fair bit of seasoning before the k10 really came in with good results. I am very happy with the flavours that I taste from Rave coffees. But I found the BB two batches dire...

Just keep pouring beans in and it will improve

Alan


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

aMb said:


> Yes it is new (I think some beans have been run through it but only for calibration). I've put 1 kg of stale beans through in attempt to season the burrs, but I'm guessing that may not be enough?


I'm running brand new burrs and have no problems at all here. I also read somewhere that Compak burrs are good to go out of the box, no idea how true this is, if it does improve with time then I've got a lot to look forward to!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Can I check what machine you are using? The burrs will settle down with more use, for certain. I also have the same grinder as you bought from Alchemy. It has been out on loan for a month or so and I am getting it back on Tuesday. Sourness normally suggests temperature problems with your water, rather than grinder but anything is possible in the world of coffee!


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## aMb (Oct 25, 2014)

Thanks all.

I had also read that the Compak burrs were ready from the factory, but I have tried running some further beans through the grinder as finely as possible and I think it's helped. I'm getting more consistent shots and visually they are extracting much better, but it may just be coincidence with me getting to grips with using it.

I'm using a Brewtus set to 93C at the brew head so I do not think it should be temperature related.

I'm finding extracting closer to 2.0x instead of 1.6x has helped, so I may have been under extracting previously which I think would explain the sourness, but strangely when using the Vario I would always aim for 1.6x as a starting point for a good shot.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

You'll probably find the K10 a bit brighter in the cup, conical vs vario flats etc.

Presumably your technique has changed a bit too? (i.e.switching from doserless?)

Might also be worth checking for distribution or channeling problems?

Are you running naked PF?

Hope that helps


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## Aliraza142 (Nov 15, 2014)

Mignon comes in around £250-280 but you've got more cash to play with so maybe:

Eureka Zenith is slightly over budget at 539

Quamar M80e defo in price second hand, not sure about new

_____________

https://www.facebook.com/kumedicalcenter

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http://www.youtube.com/user/StevensonUniversity


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## vikingboy (Mar 11, 2013)

Aliraza142 said:


> Mignon comes in around £250-280 but you've got more cash to play with so maybe:
> 
> Eureka Zenith is slightly over budget at 539
> 
> Quamar M80e defo in price second hand, not sure about new


eh? did this get posted into the wrong thread? How did we go from where we were to this suggestion!?

give it time aMb - Ive found all grinders need a bit of time to settle in and try some different beans too. Your palette may need to adjust too...


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## aMb (Oct 25, 2014)

I had been getting good results with Signature and then tried Jampit Hit, but I've switched back to Signature and the latest batch is more lightly roasted which I'm finding harder to extract.

My standard 31g from 19g in 27s is tasting very fruity/acidic with no chocolate/nut/caramels, so I've tried running the shots longer to balance them out but it's ending up tasting more bland than I'd like. I think the only thing left is to tighten the grind up to try and fix the under extraction? Here's a video of the extraction which obviously looks very poor. I'd be open to any other comments please!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If its lighter roast , i'd expect you to have to make the grind a bit finer , to get the same extraction ( dose in / weight out ) over roughly the same time .

I dint know if Sig has change that much over the last couple of months , have you rested the beans adequate amount of time ?


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## aMb (Oct 25, 2014)

Thanks - I'd usually wait 7 - 10 days before starting on Signature, and right now I'm around day 20. I have another bag of Signature waiting to be used from a later batch and that also looks to be more lightly roasted too.

I'll try grinding finer and extract longer to get to my desired output and see how it goes. I'm not usually that critical about the visual output so long as it tastes OK, but this one certainly doesn't look very good and visually similar to a very lightly roasted SO I had tried some time ago and gave up with. The lack of gloop to the flow is not something I'd expect from a blend.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

I'm not able to watch your video as it is private, but I'm stunned that you do not get perfect looking extractions.

Something I noticed straight after my purchase, was that I could be even more sloppy with my distribution and stille get perfect looking extractions with a bottomless portafilter, and that is without any seasoning of the burrs.

sure the end result in the cup suffer a bit from it, but it is not sour and undrinkable. But I agree if you use a very light roasted coffee, you'll need a very fine grind to get a propper extraction.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I always find, that the big conicals are at their best when you are using a medium plus roast. I have no scientific data to back that up, but something like Jampit, with a little playing around can produce the most stunning, glory viscous pour. I can recreate that on other darkish roasts by grinding finer and getting the light tamp right, but I can never produce that on a lighter roast. Just a thought


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Interesting point, David. Found the same with my HG One.


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## aMb (Oct 25, 2014)

Thanks both for your comments, I've changed the settings on the video now so it should be visible. I'm caffeine'd out for today but will tighten up the grind and see if I can get it to work tomorrow. I've been using Signature for a very long time as my go to bean so this is unusual, but I have 2kg for over Christmas so I'm hoping I can get it to work!

I too was getting very nice looking extractions with Jampit straight away with no adjustments at all, but wasn't completely blown away by the taste of it. That was my first purchase from Coffee Compass but I would certainly look to try something again from there, I was thinking of trying Sweet Bourbon next


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

aMb said:


> Thanks both for your comments, I've changed the settings on the video now so it should be visible. I'm caffeine'd out for today but will tighten up the grind and see if I can get it to work tomorrow. I've been using Signature for a very long time as my go to bean so this is unusual, but I have 2kg for over Christmas so I'm hoping I can get it to work!
> 
> I too was getting very nice looking extractions with Jampit straight away with no adjustments at all, but wasn't completely blown away by the taste of it. That was my first purchase from Coffee Compass but I would certainly look to try something again from there, I was thinking of trying Sweet Bourbon next


Your distribution in the posted video dosen't look leveled, so you need to pay a little more attention to where you place your portafilter, mine is delivering the coffee a little more to the left hand side of the fork, so moving it a little to the left, helps me with getting the coffee more centered, and makes it easier and less troublesome to redistribute the grinds, NSEW usually dos it for me.

And it dos seem like your shot is running bit too fast, so a finere grind might be a very good idea,

most of my shots have been 27/28 -30/31 sec.


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## aMb (Oct 25, 2014)

All good points, thanks. Do you also single dose with your K10? That's how I've been using it. And yes I've noticed it doesn't have the best chute design so I've been holding the basket to the left so that the mound hits the centre of the basket and then NSEW it with my finger, NSEW with the tamper, and do a final light tamp.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

aMb said:


> All good points, thanks. Do you also single dose with your K10? That's how I've been using it. And yes I've noticed it doesn't have the best chute design so I've been holding the basket to the left so that the mound hits the centre of the basket and then NSEW it with my finger, NSEW with the tamper, and do a final light tamp.


Yes I SD, I agree that the Chute design could be better, I think most k10pb owners have made a sweeper and doser chute mod


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I need a new car. I only intend to use it once a day to pop to the shops which actually, are just around the corner. Now, as opposed to buying a small city car, I am going to buy a 16 wheel articulated lorry with curtain sides, so if it rains I can pop the shopping inside the trailer for protection. Now, I know that not everyone will agree with me, but thats what I want.

What is it with single dosing? The K10 Fresh is NOT designed to single dose. it is a full blown commercial machine! I am not saying that you cannot come up with some farty method of using compressed air and a camera

lens hood to blow the grinds through etc etc.......but with the retention on those things you are kidding yourself. I can hera one member in particular leaping up and down to tell us how he successfully single doses........look, there id a lot of space inside one of those things. If you take the burr assembly out and clear all he stale coffee away, what do you think happens the next time you use it?

The only way these machines should be used is with a good weight of coffee in the hopper, to push the beans through. if you are bothered about retention, then sell it and buy something else. Put beans in the hopper, purge the first shot of the day (Or just drink it as I did) and get on with life with one of the best.

Can I ask you a question/ If you have to make an adjustment to the grind settings, what exactly do you do?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Isn't this a k10 PB? the doser version ?


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I need a new car. I only intend to use it once a day to pop to the shops which actually, are just around the corner. Now, as opposed to buying a small city car, I am going to buy a 16 wheel articulated lorry with curtain sides, so if it rains I can pop the shopping inside the trailer for protection. Now, I know that not everyone will agree with me, but thats what I want.
> 
> What is it with single dosing? The K10 Fresh is NOT designed to single dose. it is a full blown commercial machine! I am not saying that you cannot come up with some farty method of using compressed air and a camera
> 
> ...


The only good thing about this grinder, as far as I am concerned, is that I finally understood that doser systems are not useful for home use, and that this particular grinder is one of the worst for retention (Robur territory)...

I discovered this in one afternoon and sent mine back for a full refund.

Happy with my Nino... And as Dave says above... Enjoy the coffee.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

It sounds to me that you guys are mixing up, two different versions. The k10pb is the professional dosered version, the Fresh is the first on demand version of the grinder.

The only thing these grinders have in common are the burr set,

1. the fresh is auger fed, the k10pb is not.

2. the fresh is gear adjusted, the K10 uses an old fashioned collar adjustment.

3. fresh; is on demand the k10pb is a doser grinder.

I think you get the point.

The k10pb is 30% cheaper then the F10 Fresh. And should not be mistaken for the on demand version, and it dos not hold a lot of grinds in the grinding chamber, approx. 5grms +1,5grms in the doser if not modded.

for me I rather use the extra effort associated with SD then wasting hundreds of grms. every week.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Hands up.....what a knacker I am, but you all know that anyway! I am sorry, OP, I got my shallots mixed up again! I have had a Peo barista version of this and of course you can single dose, even though personally I found it a faff on. But, I still stand my arctic comment....LOL


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

No not mixing things up... Obviously each man to his own poison.

The Nino and the Fresh both retain some coffee... As I understand things, the Fresh retains something around 10 grams... The Nino much less... 1 or 2 grams.

I had read an argument that the dosered version of the K10, the PB, was the ultimate dosered grinder, but then I discovered the rather small and long tube that is supposed to take the grinds from the burrs to the grinder was easy to fill and really quite tricky to clean out... Coming from the HG One, I never thought that I could find a grinder that took longer to prepare a shot, especially a motorised one... The K10PB obliges.

As you say the Nino shares the same burrs as both of the other two mentioned, so great grinds in 4 seconds and straight into the machine.

BTW: Dave(dfk)... What did you not like about the Nino, you never said?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have never owned a Nino in anger anyway. The one I had, I switched on, switched off, put it back in the box, made a phone call and sent it onwards! I am going to get an E10 soon though as I believe the retention issues have been solved and that is my sort of grinder!


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I have never owned a Nino in anger anyway. The one I had, I switched on, switched off, put it back in the box, made a phone call and sent it onwards! I am going to get an E10 soon though as I believe the retention issues have been solved and that is my sort of grinder!


Ahhh... Just passing through then!

That's the one that passed through to me...









Presumably the E10 keeps the same burrs, if the retention is cured it's a good choice.

Compak seem fairly well built, from the one I had.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

sjenner said:


> No not mixing things up... Obviously each man to his own poison.
> 
> The Nino and the Fresh both retain some coffee... As I understand things, the Fresh retains something around 10 grams... The Nino much less... 1 or 2 grams.
> 
> ...


10grams is on the low side, compared to all the horror stories I have heard from other owners.

I truly doubt that the Nino only holds about 1-2 grams, that is about the same amount as horizontal mounted flat burr grind retains! I truly doubt it's possible for any conical to retain just as little. Besides I have heard owners mentioning around 4grams in the burr chamber, and that is pretty good number for any vertical mounted burr grinder, and I have heard the same nr. for the E10.

it is not tricky to get the grounds out from the chute, the chute is big enough and is flat at the button, so it is very straight forward to clean it, especially if you compare it to, lets say a k30 (or for that matter, any other doserless) these grinder usually has a ramp attached to the chute, and if that wasn't enough, all doserless have some sort of metal or plastic flap to slow down the grinds, which also adds up in retention.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

malling said:


> 10grams is on the low side, compared to all the horror stories I have heard from other owners.
> 
> I truly doubt that the Nino only holds about 1-2 grams, that is about the same amount as horizontal mounted flat burr grind retains! I truly doubt it's possible for any conical to retain just as little. Besides I have heard owners mentioning around 4grams in the burr chamber, and that is pretty good number for any vertical mounted burr grinder, and I have heard the same nr. for the E10.


The niño can be single dosed if you want to wait for it to grind everything, I ran mine through completely and then took the burrs out to see what was left in the burr assembly and grind path and guess what 1-2 grams. We have a member who is at pretty much zero retention on his k10 doser model ! Time for you to get modding me thinks.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

I do plan to mod the doser, I just need to find the time and the right solutions. but you still need to purge and brush the chute.


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