# Lelit flow control kit on MaraX



## prezes (Apr 17, 2018)

I wonder if someone can help. Not sure if there's anyone else using this kit on MaraX so @DavecUK might be my only resort as I followed your videos on the kit. 
I've been searching online and going through piles of information but can't find anything that can help.

So replaced the coffee sensor with Lelit kit. I left the original MaraX spring in place. 
The flow seems to be reduced only slightly when moving the paddle. 
I measured the flow using two methods. The paddle is fitted so there's no flow when to the left.

The group gauge seems to be reading slightly differently as well with the paddle fully open it's reading near 11 bar whereas the machine gauge 9.5 bar as set on OPV.

Is this right or something wrong with my kit ?

*Over 20 seconds from first drip*

full open - 98 + 100.3 + 99.3 = 297.3 / 3 = 99.2 / 20 = 4.96ml/s

3/4 open - 83.1 + 89.4 + 90 = 262.5 / 3 = 87.5 / 20 = 4.375 ml/s

1/2 open - 90.8 + 84.4 + 90.2 = 265.4 / 3= 88.4 /20 = 4.42 ml/s

1/4 open - 71.6 + 77.5 + 78.5 = 227.6 / 3 = 75.8 / 20 = 3.79 ml/s

*Over 25 seconds from start of the pump *

Full open - 119 + 120 + 119.5 = 358.5 / 3 = 119.5 / 20 = 5.9 ml/s

3/4 turn - 117 + 116.8 + 117.6 = 351.4 / 3 = 117.1 / 20 = 5.85 ml/s

1/2 turn - 110.5 + 111.6 + 108 = 330.1 / 3 = 110 / 20 = 5.5 ml/s

1/4 turn - 98.2 + 98.1 + 98.9 = 295.2 / 3 = 98.4 / 20 = 4.92ml/s

photos of paddle positions used as 1/4, 1/2 , 3/4.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I don't understand, are you measuring the flow with coffee, or from an open group?


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## prezes (Apr 17, 2018)

@DavecUK measuring with open group.

sorry I added more details with what's going on which just got things complicated. The gauge reading comment is when brewing with portafilter and coffee in.


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## prezes (Apr 17, 2018)

So after another few hours for browsing I found this video which although doesn't discuss the flow rates shows the exact behaviour on mine. Hope I'm wrong but it seems like it's just not made to work well with Mara?

Around 6:30 he is showing exactly what's happening on mine


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

prezes said:


> @DavecUK measuring with open group.
> 
> sorry I added more details with what's going on which just got things complicated. The gauge reading comment is when brewing with portafilter and coffee in.


 Tray taking out the gicleur (jet) which comes with the valve. Which you would have installed in the groove. Place it face down on a surface that fractionally rough (*very* fine glasspaper) and have it on a flat hard surface, or use the flat hard surface without glass paper.. Place it face down (the side the pin goes in should be down) and wipe it backwards and forwards until you see a slight burnish on the jet face. Watch my videos on installation and review of the valve (if you haven't seen them already), making sure you wind the pin down with your fingers not the paddle....and make sure it goes in the jet OK when refitting.

If you can stop the flow, then by definition dimensionally it must work. The only difference between the rotary and the vibe pump is the flow rate...There is one possibility of course....and that is the Minima I fitted it to has a higher flow rate than the quietX pump. But again if water is able to exit the expansion valve, it shouldn't make any difference....the flow rate must be enough?

*If you have done the expansion valve mod, temporarily reverse it!*

P.S. With a vibe pump as the overall flow rate is much less, it's possible you won't have the same range of adjustment as a rotary, but wihin a smaller range, one would have thought it would adjust fine.


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## prezes (Apr 17, 2018)

@DavecUK thank you I will get on to it and report back.

I've done the expansion valve but can hear the water being pushed back to the reservoir.


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## prezes (Apr 17, 2018)

Didn't want to overdo it so hope that's enough


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## prezes (Apr 17, 2018)

Done a flow test although not fully warmed up and not much difference:

Just open - 2.7 ml/s

1/4 - 4.3 ml/s

1/2 - 4.7 ml/s

3/4 - 4.87 ml/s

Full -5.35 ml/s

measured over 20 seconds from first drip


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I was hoping perhaps an imperfection....alas no.

I'm not sure, works great on a Minima....should work on a maraX


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## prezes (Apr 17, 2018)

@DavecUK thank you very much for your help. 
Such a disappointment as I was really looking forward to having this to complete this machine!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@prezes - question: did it work well with the coffee sensor kit? Which springs did you replace with the kits?


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## prezes (Apr 17, 2018)

@MediumRoastSteam coffee sensor kit was working absolutely fine and I didn't replace any springs as wanted to keep original pre-infusion in place for my partner. 
I assumed it would work in a similar fashion with the Lelit kit


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Ok&#8230; let's think logically. Both kits only effectively achieve one thing: to regulate the flow of water into the E61 brew chamber. And that's the only part which have been changed with both kits, so no springs have been replaced.

@prezes , you have observed that:

- with CoffeeSensor kit, everything works fine. You open/close the valve and you get some sort of response reading on the gauge's needle.
- with the Lelit, you don't get a meaningful read on the gauge, like demonstrated in the video.
- with the Lelit, the pressure in the machine's gauge is higher than the brew's gauge, but not with the coffee sensor?

- no pre-infusion spring have been changed, nor exhaust valve have been removed.

Can you confirm the above please? Thanks.


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## prezes (Apr 17, 2018)

@MediumRoastSteam

This was my understanding ! The only difference I was expecting is with the smaller angle of the Lelit kit.

So to confirm:

- with CoffeeSensor kit, everything works fine. You open/close the valve and you get some sort of response reading on the gauge's needle. *This is exactly the case *
- with the Lelit, you don't get a meaningful read on the gauge, like demonstrated in the video. *That's correct almost no reaction till I get to near fully closed position. *
- with the Lelit, the pressure in the machine's gauge is higher than the brew's gauge, but not with the coffee sensor? *It's actually the brew gauge that reads slightly higher than then machine gauge. This morning though it read very similarly. Saying that I set the opv at around 9.5 bar and this was the max reading with the previous kit it's constantly maxing out at 10.5-11 bar now . *

- no pre-infusion spring have been changed, nor exhaust valve have been removed. *Yes that's correct no springs changed at all this this or coffee sensor kit. *


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@prezes - I need to take a physics degree and specialise in hydraulics and thermodynamics. I'll get back to you in approx. 3 years. 🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂👍👍👍👍👍😬😬😬😬😳😳😳

Let me have a think. My brain hurts already.


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## prezes (Apr 17, 2018)

@MediumRoastSteam don't tell me ! I can't grasp how is this possible?!

@DavecUK I know it's a lot to ask but I think you're the only one who does have access to this kit and a MaraX. Could you possibly fit it and test if you're getting the same issue ?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

prezes said:


> @MediumRoastSteam
> 
> @DavecUK I know it's a lot to ask but I think you're the only one who does have access to this kit and a MaraX. Could you possibly fit it and test if you're getting the same issue ?


 I'm working on lots of prototype stuff, counterspace full. To get machines out of storage, remove kit from Minima and install/recommission a MaraX, plus add the gauge, spring etc..is too much work at the moment.

One thing I am very surprised about, is no one with the Lelit kit on MaraX has responded?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

When I get a chance I will try the Lelit kit on the MaraX, but it won't be for a while.


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## prezes (Apr 17, 2018)

@DavecUK thank you. It will be beneficial long term for anyone thinking of fitting one. Also something worth reporting back to Lelit I suppose?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

prezes said:


> @DavecUK thank you. It will be beneficial long term for anyone thinking of fitting one. Also something worth reporting back to Lelit I suppose?


 Well it's a shitload of work for me unboxing, recommissioning, removing the machines already on the counter etc.. I'm also not sure Lelit particularly see the MaraX as needing it. It's why I tend to test in the manufacturer's configuration.

I only did the minima out of curiosity and I only say for sure...the kit works on a Minima. Probably will work on most stuff and I really don't understand why yours is not working...i think it should.

At the moment though I have bigger fish to fry than a modification to MaraX, but once fried battered and dealt with, I'll try and make time to have a go. One of the big changes I'm trying to drive is how end users can be more likely to get their machines without damage....which is nothing to do with how the retailers pack them...it's a construction issue. Once one or two retailers start doi9ng it, I think most many will follow. Plus I have a fair bit of prototype work on machines etc..


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> but once fried battered and dealt with,


 ...

I thought you'd invite us for dinner? 🤣


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> ...
> 
> I thought you'd invite us for dinner? 🤣


 Only coffee....people can bring their own Pizzas 😁


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## prezes (Apr 17, 2018)

I think this video just confirms the way Lelit kit is working on MaraX. About 1:09 he starts using the paddle to control the flow and the gauge is reacting the same way as on mine.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@prezes - interesting. So the presenter shuts the flow almost entirely and the needle doesn't move? Very strange!


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## prezes (Apr 17, 2018)

@MediumRoastSteam exactly. It reacts in almost fully closed position


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

prezes said:


> @MediumRoastSteam exactly. It reacts in almost fully closed position


 And you say you have a different experience with the coffee sensor one?

if you do, keep the bottom part intact (springs, etc), but replace the control valve. Effectively having the CoffeeSensor flow control valve with Lelit's spring.

I kind of can see why this happens - flow does not have a direct relationship with pressure.

Very strange. And I take you have set it up as per Dave's instructions when he used with the minima?


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## prezes (Apr 17, 2018)

@MediumRoastSteam yes that's exactly the case. The coffee sensor kit was allowing adjustment as the knob was moved and the flow was reducing accordingly.

yes followed Dave's video to fit. Removed and refitted once as well.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@prezes - intriguing. Almost as if the valve has too much range (rather than operate within a meaningful range and then have precise adjustment) - think eureka grinders adjustment knobs as an example.

anyway, I don't have one nor an E61 machine so I can't help you. I wish you good luck and hopefully someone chimes in with a a twin setup so they can help you.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

@prezes- my Coffee Sensor FCD on Mara X behaves as you describe your Lelit FCD, i.e. when I start closing the valve there is a delay in the reduction of the pressure on the group gauge - it is not immediate, and I need to go quite a long way to close the valve before I see a reaction on the gauge.

I assumed the reason for this is that when I have reached a certain pressure, starting to close the valve reduces the flow but still pushes water in so maintains the pressure. We need to wait for more liquid to come out from the group before the pressure is reduced on the gauge (and as long as the water is coming in faster than the water going out - the pressure will remain the same). I am just guessing here and maybe got it all wrong, but just wanted to say that this is how mine behaves - with both a delay in the pressure going down and effectively having to turn the handle quite a lot before I see a change on the gauge. I am confused by the fact that your Coffee Sensor FCD behaved differently and don't have an explanation for it. Maybe someone else will have an idea.


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## prezes (Apr 17, 2018)

@Doram thank you. If mine from coffee sensor acted the same it would've been easier to understand.

there's also a clear difference in the flow debt between the kits. In the Lelit kit the flow is reduced only by about 1ml/s from fully open to 1/4 open whereas with coffee sensor the flow was reduced by over 3ml/s !


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Doram said:


> @prezes- my Coffee Sensor FCD on Mara X behaves as you describe your Lelit FCD, i.e. when I start closing the valve there is a delay in the reduction of the pressure on the group gauge - it is not immediate, and I need to go quite a long way to close the valve before I see a reaction on the gauge.
> 
> I assumed the reason for this is that when I have reached a certain pressure, starting to close the valve reduces the flow but still pushes water in so maintains the pressure. We need to wait for more liquid to come out from the group before the pressure is reduced on the gauge (and as long as the water is coming in faster than the water going out - the pressure will remain the same).


 Exactly and they key difference between a flow control valve and a machine like the vesuvius...or indeed using the expansion valve to lower pressure as in a Puristika


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Exactly and they key difference between a flow control valve and a machine like the vesuvius...or indeed using the expansion valve to lower pressure as in a Puristika


 Is it correct to assume that flow control on Bianca works exactly the same (as Mara X with an FCD), or does it have some other trick?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Doram said:


> Is it correct to assume that flow control on Bianca works exactly the same (as Mara X with an FCD), or does it have some other trick?


 The main difference in the current model of Bianca is the rotary pump...which has a much higher flow rate and of course regulates pressure in a slightly different way.

The key thing to remember, in a machine like the Vesuvius...pump output will rise to maximum (which is a lot) to try and fulfil a pressure target...or *drop to 0*, if necessary.

With a valve, it's not quite the same thing, pump output is always there, but the valve restricts it and unless closed completely. As you rightly said, any input into the PF that exceeds its capacity to pass water, increase pressure to the max the pump is set to e.g. 9 bar.

P.S. When you regulate with an expansion valve...it's different again.


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## woodbar (Aug 28, 2020)

It's a pity the guy in the video did not mention that the machine was a Mara X PLUS about £335 of extras!


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## prezes (Apr 17, 2018)

What's £350 this or the other way in Emirates lol !


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## woodbar (Aug 28, 2020)

Yes, I just thought it was a bit off labelling the video as a Mara X Pro - which is exactly what the box says I bought - and then to not mention it had loads of accessories fitted?

Unless, of course, the UK gets the usual downrated version for the same price as everywhere else - "Treasure Island" syndrome - again?


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