# Barista Express driving me mad!



## Andyno_1

Hi all,

I've been reading through the forum for a few weeks now but I could still really use some help!

Ive owned the BE since December and after getting through dozens of bags of beans I've probably only got 4 or 5 decent coffees from it.

I should say that I've never owned a coffee machine of any kind before and so grinding, dosing and tamping is all still very new.

Im using the Hasbean Jailbreak blend at the moment and any advice on settings or even a process starting point would be extremely well received.

In general my extraction starts off flying up to the over extracted zone and either then drops to the middle zone or stays at over extracted. Changing the settings doesn't seem to make much difference.

It really is driving me mad that I can't make progress so any advice would be great!

Thanks very much in advance.

Andy


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## PPapa

Before someone more competent than me shows up and asks the same questions: what's your dose, what's your output weight and what's the extraction time?

This forum is keen to talk numbers so we can help you. If you don't have scales, get ones - there's nothing worse than guessing!


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## MarkT

@Andyno_1

i have also got the barista express. I could say I am close to getting a perfect cup. Although I am using different beans every 2 weeks so a little bit of adjustment is required. Start off with 7 on your grind setting. Dosing to 3 o'clock position. What tamper are you using. The one that comes with it or custom one. Gow mich pressure are you using when tamping? I found that if you tamp too hard it will over extract. Use the dose trimmer that comes with it. Will send you some post on you tube when I get home. Have a look on you tube there are a few videos on how to use barista express. Search for beville not sage. Good luck.


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## Andyno_1

Thanks for the swift replies!

Firstly, I'm working to an 18g dose but no idea on output weight or extraction time. I wasn't getting close to a decent extraction so was trying to get in the right ballpark before checking all that more thoroughly. I'm guessing this is incorrect?

Thanks for the starting points too MarkT, I've been up and down the dial settings so many times! I'm using the supplied tamper but really don't like it, any recommendations on an alternative?

I also find it interesting what you say about over tamping. I was barely touching it when I first got the machine with half decent results but since I read up more and started tamping harder I'm having erratic results to say the least. My guess is I'm over doing it?


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## Dylan

Yup, paint by number especially when you are starting out.

18g of coffee in the basket means you should be starting with 36g (double the dry weight) of espresso in your cup this should happen in roughly 25-30 seconds.

Once you have achieved this, taste the coffee, if it is under extracted tighten the grind and get the same amount of coffee out over a longer time, or of it is over extracted do the opposite.


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## Dylan

Have a read through Matt Pergers Barista Hustle blog, it really is a very good source of info.

Here are a couple of good ones to read

http://www.baristahustle.com/coffee-extraction-and-how-to-taste-it/

http://www.baristahustle.com/8020-method/


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## Glenn

Does the Barista Express come with the White Gloves service?

If not, where are you based?


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## Andyno_1

Thanks Dylan. I think I understand the essentials of what I'm trying to achieve now, how I hit those numbers of the BE is what's confusing me. When it hits the centre of the extraction zone the coffee tastes perfect to me, it's the fact that I seem unable to repeat the process for a second time, sometimes achieving wildly different results.

Does that put it entirely down to my distribution and tamping technique?


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## Glenn

Distribution and tamping can have a huge effect on the shot quality.

Find a routine and do it consistently to see if that stabilises things.


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## Andyno_1

Glenn said:


> Does the Barista Express come with the White Gloves service?
> 
> If not, where are you based?


The express doesn't appear to have the white glove service, I guess it's not expensive enough. I'll give them a call to see though as it might be worth spending out for it. I could have saved a fortune in beans already!

Im in Bath and it was the very well regarded Colonna & Hunter / Colonna & Smalls that got me onto good coffee and specifically these beans


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## Andyno_1

Glenn said:


> Distribution and tamping can have a huge effect on the shot quality.
> 
> Find a routine and do it consistently to see if that stabilises things.


Might be worth investing in a decent tamper, I don't feel I can control the stock one well enough


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## Condyk

The tamper isn't perfect but is entirely functional. I'd stay focused on your consistency when tamping as seems you get the brew ratio stuff and can sometimes achieve the optimum gauge reading and taste. All aspects of the machine are good enough. It's easy to get distracted by blaming the gear. So tamp and make a mental note of how it 'felt', then observe and taste. If it's wrong then repeat. Once you have the feel that works then repeat. Remembering the 'feel' each time is important. Quite soon you programme yourself. This is how a decent barista will operate. It's mainly habit/experience and unconscious replication.


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## Andyno_1

You're quite right, I've managed to get close using the standard kit so I guess I should try to stick with it for now. My concern was how much my shots were fluctuating from one to the next with what felt like exactly the same technique.

Does a grind setting of 7 on the BE sound about right on an 18g dose? If so maybe I'll start from there and see what a more gentle tamp results in. I'm starting to think it was me compacting the grind too much that resulted in an over extraction or even choked machine rather than the grind size.


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## Condyk

The thing with extraction is the setting will inevitably depend on your beans. When I ran my shop I kept constant watch over each shot I drew and would adjust the grinder a tad this way or that depending on things like humidity, ambient temperature, beans themselves in the hopper, or adding a new bag, etc. They are sensitive souls.

On the settings at home it has depended on beans and I tend to get through at least three different beans each month or so. 'Generally' offering a specific start point is no good to you or anyone, as the setting is so dependant on factors outlined. Really you need to experiment with the beans you have.

The good thing on the Sage is the front gauge helps you out. If you're getting a big crema then you're likely not that far out. It's also worth noting water temperature impacts a lot too. The worst so called 3rd wave coffee's I've ever had well both were way too hot. You could start with a calculation based on a double shot at say 6 on the grinder and a double shot on the front. See how it goes on the gauge, and looking at it too, as it extracts and timing it. If it's too fast or slow it'll show easy enough, so then adjust as needed. Around 25 second or so extraction is a start but it will depend. Whatever tastes right. You don't want sour or bitter ... but then some beans are more light/acidic and some are dark roast/bitter just to confuse things!! I would not go for more grind, ie up to say 20g or down to 14g, but rather focus on grind size: smaller will slow water flow and clearly larger will speed. The tamp is part of this dynamic and it's about excluding the variables.

The more beans you use the more of a faff it is to get right. At work I only had our house blend to worry about mainly and you get real sharp on the smallest changes to look and taste after pulling many 1000's of shots. At home when we're all messin' around and trying different beans then getting things A1 is more tricky.

The potential in the machine is high and it's pretty easy to sort the extraction, but you just have to accept wastage is inevitable and it could take a while. But once sorted, so long as you use the same beans, then life gets easier.


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## Andyno_1

Thanks for the help on this, it is very much appreciated. I think more than anything I was expecting such an entry level machine to be a little more forgiving than it is, I'm not sure how though.

I also didn't realise how much one bean differs from the next. My first batch of beans included 5 different beans from 5 different places so just as I was getting close to a decent cup I'd have to change beans. Now I understand they're all vastly different I'm sticking to a single favourite for now.

I'll try out all the tips I've been given so far and see where it takes me!


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## Dylan

Yea when your starting out buy 1kg bags so you don't have to change just as you nail the routine.


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## MarkT

Hi Andy,

Apologies for swift reply this morning as I was leaving for Sunday dinner out. lol.

What Dave said is right as I've been following his advice on another thread.

Currently I have my machine set to Grind setting 2 and Front dial dosing to 4 o'clock You might get a small amount of grounds go over the portafilter. Tamping just hard enough to compact the grounds. use the dose trimmer to level off. So I get the extraction at between 12 and 1 on the extraction dial. Roughly about 24-26 seconds. The only thing I have to watch out for is the tamping pressure. Otherwise the shots are perfect for me.

I have bought a motta tamper. It's not because of the tamper came with is not good it's just that I like the bigger grip.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Motta-tamper-stainless-steel-wooden-handle/dp/B009TO5PSK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1453059260&sr=8-2&keywords=tamper+53mm

You need to remember it's 53mm tamper you need as the protafilter is 53.5 mm.

Like Dave said above. Spend some time with the machine get a few shots write down the settings you use and the results you get. Compare them and you will get the perfect one for your taste. Use a bathroom scale to see what 20kg pressure feels like.

Also use bottled water like Volvic, Ashbeck or Waitrose Essential. I'm using Volvic and Waitrose half and half as the water hardness in my area is pretty high and it's an expensive machine so go easy on the limescale build up. It also taste so much better too. lol.


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## hotmetal

Don't want to chime in half-cocked but 20kg tamping pressure is a lot! I don't think you need to go that hard. However, I dare say if you're tamping until the bed doesn't 'give' any more you should then be consistent. Trying to tamp light consistently is harder. But 20kg seems a tad excessive (not going to say it's wrong - whatever works)


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## MarkT

Apologies Hotmetal, too much beer. lol . meant to say 20-30 lbs. Forgive me my maths is very very bad. lol.


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## Dylan

There is a school of thought that says 20-30lbs but the key bit is consistency. If you want to tamp 5lbs that's fine so long as you get your level and your tramp more or less that same wash time.

There were a few experiments done which showed little no difference in the shot due to change in tamping pressure.


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## Andyno_1

Thanks again for all the helpful advice. I feel much more inspired to crack it now! (It was half way back in its box last week)

Fortunately I like a challenge and I'm almost certain I've been tamping too hard. Funnily enough probably more like 20kgs than 20lbs so I'll tone that down and stick with it. Thanks for the product suggestion too Mark, it's good to know which one fits well should I make the switch.

I've got new beans coming in the next couple of days so I'll report back on progress


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## hotmetal

Dylan said:


> so long as you get your level and your tramp more or less that same wash time.


Been at the "old purple tin" or "Vino Collapso" again? Have a wash with your tramp any time you like!


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## Andyno_1

Ok, so I've been through another bag of Hasbean's Jailbreak today and changing to a lighter tamp has helped to keep the extraction consistent at least (doesn't jump around on the gauge as much) I still wasn't having much luck getting a decent cup though.

With the grind set on 7 the machine was still choking so I went for a courser grind and it looks like we're getting somewhere. I'm currently on grind setting 14 and it's a much more respectable extraction with 18g in.

Ive not come across anyone in my internet reading that has gone that course, so it seems a bit odd? Maybe these beans are tricky?

On a side note I haven't added washing a tramp into my technique but I will if I have to


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## Mrboots2u

Jailbreak is a pretty middle of the road blend - and designed for better or worse to be pretty " forgiving " for home and cafe users ...

from the has bean site

"


Good in a cheaper home machine as well as a top of the range commercial machine.

Good across a range of temperatures and extraction times - it should be forgiving.


When was it roasted btw

Looking at other internet users grind settings may not be very helpful , they are not using the same coffee as you


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## Andyno_1

Oh....I was hoping it wasn't entirely my fault I was butchering it.

The heavy grind still seems odd to me but it seems to be what's in order


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## Mrboots2u

Andyno_1 said:


> Oh....I was hoping it wasn't entirely my fault I was butchering it.
> 
> The heavy grind still seems odd to me but it seems to be what's in order


when was it roasted


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## Andyno_1

3 days ago. How should I adjust the way I treat the beans based on that?


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## Mrboots2u

Andyno_1 said:


> 3 days ago. How should I adjust the way I treat the beans based on that?


might be a little fresh for espresso , could lead to you getting your inconsistent results and having a coarser grind also

i tend to let my beans " rest " 5-7 days before using for espresso


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## Andyno_1

Ok, I'll practice my technique through this bag and let the other bags sit for a few days. It's nice to get something other than horribly over extracted espresso for now anyway


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## MarkT

Hi @Andyno_1

Whilst browsing this afternoon on You Tube came across this link for Coffee Dosing on Sage/Breville.






They have a few basic techniques base on their machine. Search for Breville coffee DVDs.

Regards.

Mark.


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## Andyno_1

Thanks for that Mark it looks very useful. I've watched their 'coffee guru' videos on YouTube and his dose is massive! Always seems to nail a perfect coffee though unlike myself


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## Mrboots2u

Andyno_1 said:


> Thanks for that Mark it looks very useful. I've watched their 'coffee guru' videos on YouTube and his dose is massive! Always seems to nail a perfect coffee though unlike myself


Sage Oracle works on a 21-22 g dose with that type of grinder ....


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## MarkT

I found the part where they give you the comparison of the portafilter to show how far to fill it. When is too much and when is too little. Just changed to left over beans of CC Sweet Bourbon. Had to move the grinder to 4 and it was fine. So basically once you've got the hang of the settings and tamping it's really easy to adjust according to the type of beans. I get through about 80 g to 100g of coffee a day depending of inlaws visiting. Unfortunately they live near us and they love the coffee from the machine. They are normally Tea drinker since I got the Express they like to come for coffee more often. lol. At least they are here whilst I'm at work. whew.


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## Andyno_1

I get through a similar amount, except most of it was going straight in the bin. It is a very simple, straight forward video which should prove useful. It didn't help that the 'Razor' removes more than they advise everywhere else but I think I'm on track now


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## tallamericano

I have the barista pro. They suggest 15-20kg or pressure when tamping. I think that's too much. When I do it I get very little extraction. Best to have an even level puck with maybe light pressure 5kg


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