# Why isn't all coffee be under £20 a kilo



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

And delivered free.

My thoughts , if price is continued to be used to gain marketing share , in a market that isn't growing as fast as the roasters that are appearing then eventually farmers will simply move away from growing coffee and you will end up with higher prices and less quality.

over to the rest of you .


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> And delivered free.
> 
> My thoughts , if price is continued to be used to gain marketing share , in a market that isn't growing as fast as the roasters that are appearing then eventually farmers will simply move away from growing coffee and you will end up with higher prices and less quality.
> 
> over to the rest of you .


 Exactly, there is already too much crap being roasted and sold into the "speciality market" which I hope we all try and support. There is a place for commodity coffee and it makes the farmers a good living but speciality will die out unless it's worth their while for the effort involved in producing it.


----------



## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Couldn't agree more with Boots and Dave.

You get what you pay for.


----------



## Jacko112 (Oct 29, 2015)

aaronb said:


> Couldn't agree more with Boots and Dave.
> 
> You get what you pay for.


 Exactly this.

There's too many comparisons to make to draw a conclusion, but I'd much rather a) buy from a local supplier and b) buy a product that either lasts or is quality.

90% of the time you'll end up with better customer service too.


----------



## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> And delivered free.
> 
> My thoughts , if price is continued to be used to gain marketing share , in a market that isn't growing as fast as the roasters that are appearing then eventually farmers will simply move away from growing coffee and you will end up with higher prices and less quality.
> 
> over to the rest of you .


 Like everything it seems to have been devalued by crap in the market, supermarket beans aren't that much of an issue but roasters selling poor quality blends *cough 200degrees cough* and selling them off cheap as 'speciality coffee' isn't helping.

It reminds me of meat, a decent sirloin used to be £20 a kilo and you'd get it from your local butcher who sourced it from a local farm where the cattle were treated relatively well. You ate it rarely as a 'treat'

Aldi now sells it for £10 a kilo from so sh1tty factory farm, no one wants to pay £20 a kilo anymore, butchers lose business and farms are forced to move towards higher volume worse conditions.


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I remember when . . . The high streets were full of proper shops. Now it's Pound-this, Bargain-that. Give the customers what they want, until there's nothing left to give and we are left with nothing.

Sorry, not really addressing your post MrB. But yes I agree, farmers WILL change tack, no doubt, because the men and women at the start of the chain are the ones getting clobbered every time the consumer demands cheap anything.

(Adding for the sake of it, I know it isn't all as black and white as all that).


----------



## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Stands to reason that if you have to roast to a price and still make a profit then you need greens at price over quality. Presumably the number of roasters might drop as they compete to hit the same or more likely offer lower prices for market share and you'll end up with mega roasters on economies of scale squeezing out the smaller players with less choice for the consumer. Then squeezing prices throughout the chain back to the farm. With less disposable income for many due to economic downturn it's a possibility.

What will be the possible impacts of the pandemic on the coffee industry. Presumably a lot less has been roasted and continues not to be due to cafes being closed. This must be creating a backlog at green importer warehouses. New crops will be coming in before the old ones have been sold. Will this lead to wholesalers cost cutting or possibly not importing new crops? How many cafes will go out of business in the interim?

We've seen less milk required due to less lattes etc... Less coffee required. Will it lead to less grown? Lower prices for farmers down the line? Mountains of oversupply in coffee growing regions? Farmers pulling out as corrections are applied to supply and demand? Depressing thoughts. Hopefully wrong.


----------



## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

I know the answer to this question... it's because some costs more.

Being more serious locations taxes profits postage and taste


----------



## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Step21 said:


> What will be the possible impacts of the pandemic on the coffee industry. Presumably a lot less has been roasted and continues not to be due to cafes being closed. *This must be creating a backlog at green importer warehouses.* New crops will be coming in before the old ones have been sold. Will this lead to wholesalers cost cutting or possibly not importing new crops? How many cafes will go out of business in the interim?
> 
> We've seen less milk required due to less lattes etc... Less coffee required. Will it lead to less grown? Lower prices for farmers down the line? Mountains of oversupply in coffee growing regions? Farmers pulling out as corrections are applied to supply and demand? Depressing thoughts. Hopefully wrong.


 There is a reported issue of not actually being able to load coffee into containers at source as empty containers are in short supply coupled with shortage of people to load said containers, so what you potentially have is importers with reducing stock levels / choice.

What this could lead to is shortage of supply / demand at origin end but for very different reasons, one of transportation over cost, still both ending the same way though.

Back to speciality specifically though, there is a need to ensure the farmer gets more of the sale price than they currently do, in most case for all the reasons mentioned above and whilst some roasters are doing their bit to ensure direct trade / fair terms, this relies on a fair turnover of stock at roaster end to make viable as well (there are advertisers on here that source direct). If as a roaster you cannot buy direct because you wouldn't have the volumes, then you hope to engage with importers that have good terms in place to ensure the farmer gets a better deal.

All of this matters not if the end consumer is wishing to try and squeeze every penny out of the supply chain through free this or extra / cheaper that, as inevitably this reduction gets squeezed out of the next person in the chain and the next etc to the final detriment of the farmer who is told that they are going to get paid less this year than they did last year.

Co-Ops (growing and processing) are becoming more common place at origins giving the famer a bit more leverage (and training / incentives to grow better) than have been in the past and in this ever more connected world, archaic buying systems within countries are slowly adapting but this is again all for nought if the price at the very end of the chain is being squeezed again and again.

If you could go and buy your (roasted or green) beans direct from the farmer and see how little most make would you still in all conscience ask to pay less ? (lets ignore the odd super large growers such as Daterra which have grown their market share through quality / technology / innovation)

The above has focussed on the farmer but equally the processor, shipper, importer, (gov't taxation), transporters, roasters and finally postie / courier all are looking to make a fair living out of it as well, this being one of the reasons coffee costs what it does to us the consumer.

Me personally, I am fortunate enough to buy green beans as part of a collective buying group so are missing the step of wholesaler / retailer which allows us to buy more expensive beans with a better provenance of fairness / quality from. Equally I buy / try other roasters / LSOL offerings, this week 5x250g from HasBean and 500g of LSOL none of which would fall into the sub £20 kilo bracket, not because am seeking out expensive beans it just happens that the quality they has dictated the price.

My brother buys Aldi beans at less than £2 per 227g bag that I cannot even match at cost to me of end roasted in a bag, which whilst I point out the error of his thinking, he likes what he drinks and that is his price point (I do accidently leave him a bag of something different from time to time but always returns to the burnt offering he drinks, the economics of his choice to the farmer can't even begin to compute)

Drink what you like / can afford at the end of the day but at the very least spare a thought for the farmer who by far and away has put the most effort into your cup than anyone, including us, in the chain.

John


----------



## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Despite best attempts to grow my own beans over the past 4 years a recent change of feed almost ruined my chances of seeing my own grown in maybe 20 or so years when the climate has changed enough..


----------



## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Purposely didn't comment on the other thread as it was a troll. Given that this is a parody thread I'm now happy to comment my views haha.

I bought into coffee/espresso knowing that communities around the world where lots of coffees are made are massively underpaid and still live in poverty. Hence I bought into the industry knowing that I'd be more than happy to spend in excess of £25 (sometimes upwards of £30) a kilo. I'd like to think at this price point that some of the cost is reflected in the farmers wages and they can at least live a bit of a better life. I purchased machines etc. under the understanding that this was a cost i'd be happy to pay and my viewpoint hasn't changed since. I'd rather not feed the large conglomerates that advertise fairtrade but a lot of the cost is eaten up in admin and a lot of profit margin - unfortunately, whilst I trust the first-tier retailer (normally a large company such as Kenco etc.) I don't trust further down the chain that this cost is passed onto the farmers.

As far as the free delivery goes... I understand that deals can be negotiated with Royal Mail and couriers etc. but it is widely understood that, unless you are a huge company, profit margins for small independent roasteries are often small, especially for the amount of work it warrants. Hence I'm not actively seeking to get free delivery unless they advertise it above a certain amount, which is on their on prerogative. Further to that, I'll often not scour the internet for a discount code, but will use one when given or when one is advertised on their site/social media etc. Again this should be in the business plan that was initially outlaid and they've determined that an amount of discount with a certain expenditure to be profitable.

Especially given the current times, I'd rather pay a couple quid extra once a month to see one of my favourite roasteries continue to trade post-COVID-19 as opposed to see them collapse.

Just my 2 penneth.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

For those that have time to kill , a few pennies to spare to rent it, and an enquiring mind about where your coffee comes from , then A Film About Coffee is worth a couple hours.


----------



## Aquitaine (May 4, 2015)

There's an interesting way to actually help the farmer with new blockchain based apps like Farmer Connect and thank my farmer, IBM works with a few companies to promote these technologies.

https://www.ibm.com/thought-leadership/coffee/

In essence you can track the entire journey from farm to your door, and if you like the product, you can directly tip the farmer. Great idea, hasn't taken off all that well yet, but it does seem something that will eventually happen.


----------



## Rapid (Jun 12, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> Like everything it seems to have been devalued by crap in the market, supermarket beans aren't that much of an issue but roasters selling poor quality blends *cough 200degrees cough* and selling them off cheap as 'speciality coffee' isn't helping.
> 
> It reminds me of meat, a decent sirloin used to be £20 a kilo and you'd get it from your local butcher who sourced it from a local farm where the cattle were treated relatively well. You ate it rarely as a 'treat'
> 
> Aldi now sells it for £10 a kilo from so sh1tty factory farm, no one wants to pay £20 a kilo anymore, butchers lose business and farms are forced to move towards higher volume worse conditions.


 Very good analogy.

I think coffee is a tough industry for the average consumer to understand. The fact it's so subjective probably aids that difficulty. Some people actually like (and even prefer(!)) cheap shit coffee beans to proper stuff. Usually people that like their face blown off by a cremated roast.

Looking at your analogy, the average person in the street will probably think the Aldi sirloin is enjoyable. Probably because he's never had a proper good butcher's 40 day matured offering or whatever.

What makes good coffee? What makes a good supply chain? what makes good farming techniques? and crucially how does it affect the end product? All things that the average consumer doesn't see or isn't interested in other than the bag with beans in it. In many industries, marketing is bullshit and this is a big problem for coffee artisans. How can you convince people that what you're saying is meaningful and you're not just out to make a small fortune?

For example, I see a yirgacheffe at £16 k/g here, I see what looks like the same (or very similar) for £32 k/g there. How as a consumer would I know what the difference is without trying it? How do I know that offering a) isn't just taking a lot less margin than offering b)?

So really the answer to the issue is education. I think artisan's have done a good job of putting a good level of information on their websites. How you can communicate that in terms of the final cup is a very difficult ask.

In answer to the OP, I understand the sentiment. Wouldn't it be great to see a bunch of well established artisans put some kind of collaboration together to educate the masses? A little bit like the international aid fund of 4% GDP to help developing countries. If 20 UK roastries were able to club together 1% of GP towards some kind of educational artisan fund. I'm talking funded/subsidised tasting sessions, courses, samples, advertising, equipment etc. The PR they could create would actually probably pay for it's self and more.

If someone had lined up top beans from 5 roastries and pulled espresso shots, brewed v60's, aeropress, french press and showed me the difference between that and the supermarket garbage, I'd have got into coffee a lot earlier than I did.


----------



## SDM (Apr 1, 2020)

My local roaster does free educational tasting sessions once a month (or they did, pre-covid-19) which would focus on a particular brewing method(s) or on differences between their beans and roasts etc.


----------



## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

SDM said:


> My local roaster does free educational tasting sessions once a month (or they did, pre-covid-19) which would focus on a particular brewing method(s) or on differences between their beans and roasts etc.


 Going to have a guess that it's Yellow Bourbon?


----------



## SDM (Apr 1, 2020)

filthynines said:


> Going to have a guess that it's Yellow Bourbon?


 Correct!


----------



## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

SDM said:


> Correct!


 Boom - 10 virtual points for me.

I like that place. I go out of my way to visit there when I'm in the area. Although last time I was less than impressed by the barista who tried to impress upon me that espresso *must be 18g in and 36g out*. I think that was free educational session too far for me


----------



## Alexholt (Feb 1, 2019)

Fascinating thread - presumably a lot of coffee cost is the roasting packing and posting. I was at my local roaster yesterday (Maude in Leeds) and he spent 30 minutes weighing out, bagging up and advising. On three bags, that's a £20 surcharge for any ones money. If that level of interest and care goes all the way down the line then the costs add up incrementally.


----------

