# Expobar Leva Dual Boiler or ????



## twistywizard

Morning guys

I am having a shift around on Hobbys and as a result I will shortly be freeing up some cash. I should have around £1200 ish to spend. So having bought a second hand SJ I am sorted in the grinder side of things. So I will turn my attention to the machine.

I *think* I want/need a dual boiler system. I make pretty much 90% milk based drinks with some brewing as well from time to time. The machine that sticks out is the Expobar Dual Leva (Brewtus?)

Looking around at this price point this seems to be pretty much the only dual boiler system for this price point brand new. I am happy to go second hand if it gets me a better machine. I have also noticed the Duetto however this is a fair few £££ more.

So talk to me guys? Experiences with people who live with the Expobar? Disadvantages? What else would you reccomend? Not sure I want a lever machine though at the moment.


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## Spazbarista

I'm very happy with my Expobar, after a year of ownership. No regrets, Im not convinced a Duetto would do things any better.

If I had my time again I'd definitely go for the plumbed in model with a rotary pump. I have the tank model and the lack of a low water alarm and the large flush that happens with every shot means that you end up having to regularly check and/or refill, otherwise you risk the machine cutting out mid shot if it runs out of water. It is a minor inconvenience, but the rest of the package is so good that this issue stands out a bit.

I was put off by the thought of plumbing in a machine, but having just plumbed in a water filter I can tell you it's really easy.


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## forzajuve

Do you need a cooling flush on a dual boiler? I thought that was the main advantage over a HX?


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## garydyke1

I dont do any cooling flush on my Expobar, however a lot of water gets used to warm my cup, clean the grouphead and portfilter after each shot. Oh and plain water backflushes when I remember.

The water tank is pretty big, I usually only top it up once or twice a week & gauge the amount in the equally large drip tray if it needs doing.

I too would buy the same machine again but opt for plumbed in rotary, at time of purchase I was renting accomodation so plumbing in wasnt an option. Nothing wrong with the Vibe pump tho , other than the noise - they are dirt cheap to replace.


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## garydyke1

Have a read of this if you havent already (nb its the previous model)

http://www.home-barista.com/expobar-brewtus-iii-review-conclusion.html


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## Spazbarista

No cooling flush needed, but as Gary says large volume ejected with each shot.

It's liveable with, but it's a pain that you wouldn't get with a plumb in.


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## twistywizard

Thanks guys! I will read the review above when I get home. Seen a few threads on CoffeeGeek and the BellaBarista write ups.

With regards to plumbing in yes this would be ideal. However I am in rented accomodation at present and will be for at least the next few years. Plus where my kit is located is the opposite side of the kitchen to the sink/water outlets so it is a no go. Would have to be a tank.

I did look at the Duetto as above but apart from I guess it being better built and better looking I didnt see a lot else function wise for the extra and I am on a budget as well. Although a second hand one would fall in budget I guess.


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## lookseehear

The Expobar dual is a really great machine and will produce coffee as good as machines far more expensive. There really isn't a *need* to spend more than this. The negatives are really that it maybe isn't the prettiest of stainless steel boxes and that it has a vibratory pump rather than a rotary pump. Several people on here have them and are completely satisfied. At a similar price point you can consider the La Spaziale mini Vivaldi II from GioEspresso.


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## forzajuve

I believe version 4 is also tank/plumb so you can start running off the tank until you are in a position to plumb it in. Only lacking a rotary pump, hence the cheaper price I guess, but one I am looking at as a future purchase. Still being seduced by all things Rocket however!


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## garydyke1

I have version 4 which isnt switchable, there is a sub-version of 4-R which is switchable but this is more expensive and has taller rubber feet


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## Monkey_Devil

Strange, I have the mk2 version and it can be switched to plumbed in. I haven't done so since I don't want to have to buy inline water softener etc.


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## twistywizard

I actually quite like the looks of the Expobar haha! Vibe pump a bit more noisy but I guess cheaper to replace and I dont have kids or use it when noise is likely to be a problem either. So for me not a massive negative.

I do need to see one in the flesh though.


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## Moon

Expobarista said:


> I'm very happy with my Expobar, after a year of ownership. No regrets, Im not convinced a Duetto would do things any better.
> 
> If I had my time again I'd definitely go for the plumbed in model with a rotary pump. I have the tank model and the lack of a low water alarm and the large flush that happens with every shot means that you end up having to regularly check and/or refill, otherwise you risk the machine cutting out mid shot if it runs out of water. It is a minor inconvenience, but the rest of the package is so good that this issue stands out a bit.
> 
> I was put off by the thought of plumbing in a machine, but having just plumbed in a water filter I can tell you it's really easy.


I've had an Expobar Leva (Dual Boiler) since 2010... agree with Expobarista - generally very happy overall BUT...


The vibe pump is very loud - definitely recommend rotary pump

When the tank is low, the machine just switches off without warning - really annoying. There is no gauge or low water warning.

The tank is not that big, and it's kind of... messy to take out to fill since you need to pull the two plastic tubes out (dripping water and picking up dust unless you place them somewhere carefully). I often fill it from a jug.


I also do mainly latte, cappucino etc. so I thought the dual boiler would be most useful. In reality though I rarely steam and draw a shot at the same time, so much of the dual boiler benefit is lost for me. The only time I've really appreciated the dual boiler is when we have dinner guests and I need to make 8 coffees. 95% of the time though it's just latte for me and the misses - by the time I've worked the milk a little, put sugar in the cups, grinded and tamped, the milk is ready so then I start the draw and clean the wand.

The downside of they way the Expobar dual boiler is designed is that descaling is a sharp pain in the sitting down part of the body. I did it once and then bought a Reverse Osmosis filter so I never have to do it again. The RO unit has actually been a good idea - we use RO water in our kettle & iron... the kettle now has no limescale (it was totally white inside when I bought the RO unit) and our 10 year old steam iron is working better than it has in years (the water spray function even works now).

I actually like the look of the Expobar - appeals to the engineer in me, and the drip tray is a solid steel jobby that holds loads of water.

Just for the record I'm happy with all the other kit I have:


Eureka Mignon Instantaneo Grinder

Solid Aluminium Polecon Tamper

Grindenstein Knock Box


Summary: I still get pleasure from my barista rituals on the Expobar and I've no plans to replace it, but I think personally I would have been just as happy with a plumbed in, top notch (rotary) HX machine.



garydyke1 said:


> Nothing wrong with the Vibe pump tho , other than the noise - they are dirt cheap to replace.


How hard would it be to replace myself? How do I figure out the best rotary pump to use?

Cheers.


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## garydyke1

Moon said:


> How hard would it be to replace myself? How do I figure out the best rotary pump to use?
> 
> Cheers.


I meant switching from Vibe to vibe (when the time comes). Rotary conversion is not a straight switch


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## Spazbarista

Regarding the dual boiler thing, remember that it isn't just a question of enabling you to pull shot and steam simultaneously, it is also an integral factor in the temperature stability, not needing to do a cooling flush and being able to have a PID


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## garydyke1

I agree descaling is a pain (not difficult just time consuming), the key is to watch what you put in the tank in the first place. I recommend Waitrose essential spring water, fairly low TDS, cheap and the shots tastes lovely. Just check the e61 Mushroom every 5/6 months, when scale is apparent its time to descale.

Remember that both boilers can be used independantly, switched on and off at will. Although temperature stability/recovery time (for pure espresso production) is marginly higher with both on


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## twistywizard

As above some of the main reasons for the Dual Boiler setup were more so to do with the PID, Temp Stability and no need to flush all the time.

With regards to the Vibe/Rotary. I appreciate the Rotary will be much quieter. But lets face it the machine is in the kitchen and the you hardly spend all day with the pump going full tilt so that for me is a non-issue especially given the extra cost.

Having a plumb/tank switchable would be nice but not a deal break, as I will not be moving anywhere soon that would enable me to do so.


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## forzajuve

The only thing I would add from what I have read in various places is that the presence of a PID does not necessarily mean greater temperature stability. It also comes down to quality of materials and manufacture. A top end HX can be more thermally stable than a cheaper machine with electronic temperature controls, remember the PID has tolerances in accuracy too.

There are some questions over shot quality improvement with a rotary pump vs vibe. To be honest I don't think my palette would notice the difference. Rotary is preferred for plumbed in so would be the best choice if planning to do this, via a filter system would make descaling an annual occurrence. Dual boilers also use more energy, although the nice part about Brewtus is the option to switch off the steam if only making espresso.

So many things to consider, but at this level all machines are good. I think it comes down to the individual to decide what is more important based on their requirements.


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## Spazbarista

Although a PID allows you to change temperature


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## forzajuve

Expobarista said:


> Although a PID allows you to change temperature


Indeed, that is what a PID is primarily for and is a quick and easy way to adjust temperature between beans as required. It can be done on other machines but is a faff opening up and turning valves etc. Often beans can be extracted better (by personal taste preference) at different temperatures, although again the quality of the PID and temperature stability may render this void if accuracy if +/- 2degC.

Having said all that you cant deny what great value the Brewtus is, similar functioning Duetto's are considerably more expensive.


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## twistywizard

I am pretty sure my Palate is not going to tell the difference between pumps... I am not going to Plumb so I think that is my mind made up on that.

With regards to stability I was more thinking towards being a Dual Boiler means more stability with the PID an added extra/bonus contributing slightly towards this. I realise I am not going to get Speedster or similar performance at my price point but I am looking for something a lot better than my current stock Silvia... Which I hope it will give!!!!

It does seem given my budget that this ticks most of the boxes with the least compromises..


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## Marcelino

Finally delurking to join in the Expobar Leva Dual-love fest.

I purchased one about a week ago (might have ordered the last non-plumbable one from Bella Barista for the time being, sorry guys!) on recommendation of various forums and reviews and really love the machine. As others said the Dual boiler option isn't just about being able to steam at the same time, but about the increased temperature stability and most of all the PID control. The difference in cost from the non-dual version is a bargain considering all the extra features you get.

I also think it looks good, maybe more boxy and not as rounded as something like the Rockets, but would I pay £500 of my hard earned cash more for that? Umm, no.

So far the only design flaw I've noticed is the drip tray which, while very large, is only useful up to midpoint after which water leaks from the screw holes fixing the Expobar logo. But I stopped being lazy and now empty the drip tray every day so it's no longer a problem. I guess another option would be to seal it properly.

The water tank is huge, I can almost wash the cups and milk jugs with it and still have water left. I just top it up at the end of the day (routine when I go clean up the rest of the stuff). Currently using Highland Spring water on sale from Costco, which seems to have a good TDS balance.


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## RisingPower

forzajuve said:


> The only thing I would add from what I have read in various places is that the presence of a PID does not necessarily mean greater temperature stability. It also comes down to quality of materials and manufacture. A top end HX can be more thermally stable than a cheaper machine with electronic temperature controls, remember the PID has tolerances in accuracy too.
> 
> There are some questions over shot quality improvement with a rotary pump vs vibe. To be honest I don't think my palette would notice the difference. Rotary is preferred for plumbed in so would be the best choice if planning to do this, via a filter system would make descaling an annual occurrence. Dual boilers also use more energy, although the nice part about Brewtus is the option to switch off the steam if only making espresso.
> 
> So many things to consider, but at this level all machines are good. I think it comes down to the individual to decide what is more important based on their requirements.


Actually I think it was fairly conclusively proven there was no difference in taste between rotary pumps and vibes.

Rotary pumps are better for other reasons.

I think bella barista had a review on the older expobar leva dual boiler and the only issue I ever remember was it doesn't steam quite as well as the duetto.

With any machines in this price bracket I think anyone would be happy.


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## twistywizard

Pretty much mind made up. Would like to see one but it is finding it nearby to me in the South West. It does sound like I am going I will be impressed with it.

The other half wasnt too impressed when I told her what I wanted to spend on one though.


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## garydyke1

Marcelino said:


> So far the only design flaw I've noticed is the drip tray which, while very large, is only useful up to midpoint after which water leaks from the screw holes fixing the Expobar logo. But I stopped being lazy and now empty the drip tray every day so it's no longer a problem. I guess another option


Mate that isnt a design fault , thats a defect - I know 4 people outside of the forum who own Brewtus 4's and they dont have leaky drip-traps


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## lookseehear

RisingPower said:


> I think bella barista had a review on the older expobar leva dual boiler and the only issue I ever remember was it doesn't steam quite as well as the duetto.


I've wondered about this for a while. Surely steam power is mainly a function of the following things:


Steam tip (how quickly you can let steam escape - the tip being the limiting factor)

Steam boiler element size (how quickly you can generate steam). You're only having to put in the energy lost through steaming and radiated heat would I guess be fairly insignificant if steam power is what you're concerned about.


Obviously if you set your steam boiler at 1.4bar then that means that when you start steaming you'll have a lot of power initially but when the steam pressure drops and the element is fully on it's the element vs the steam tip (assuming the valve is fully open).

The Duetto has a 1.4kW steam element, according to Rave coffee the Expobar has a 1.2kW steam element, and they both can have an assortment of tips. Surely there can't be much difference between the two, unless the Expobar on test was supplied with a steam tip with holes that are too large meaning the element can't keep up with the steaming and the pressure drops quite quickly. Would be good to do a side by side comparison!


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## Spazbarista

Re: Steaming.

I think the part of the BB review that questions the Expobar steaming capabilities is mistaken. There is plenty of steam power. What you realise when you start messing about with turning the steam pressure up and swapping tips is that the Expobar's single tip constricts the flow of steam. That is actually not a bad thing as it is much more controllable...it just takes a bit longer.

If you put a twin hole tip on you'll be steaming a jug of milk in 6 seconds, but it is so powerful it is hard to control. I have both tips and I find with the single I can get the best microfoam I've ever had.

So, it is emphatically not true about a limited steaming capability on this machine.

EDIT: cross posted with Lookseehear, but he's absolutely right


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## garydyke1

I actually limited the steam pressure using the standard tip, it was too powerful. The potential steam output on the brewtus at full whack isn't a help its a hinderance.


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## Marcelino

garydyke1 said:


> Mate that isnt a design fault , thats a defect - I know 4 people outside of the forum who own Brewtus 4's and they dont have leaky drip-traps


Oh, thanks for letting me know. Will get in touch with Bella Barista then. Mine just has two screws and two nuts holding the Expobar logo, so just guessed it wasn't watertight by design. Probably missing a couple of washers.

Re steam pressure I agree with the others, there's plenty of it. Have no problems getting superb microfoam even when steaming a pint of milk in one go.


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## Moon

Thanks all for reminding me the real benefits of Dual boiler! My only other coffee machine was a fully automatic so I've no experience of cold flushes etc.

No issue with leaking drip tray either.


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## RobD

With regard to steaming, if you set your pressure stat at 1.4 bar you will have boiler full of water at about 120c but at that pressure it is not boiling the same as a cars coolant system, as soon as you open the steam valve you reduce the pressure in the cylinder allowing the water to reach boiling point and vaporise into steam, as you now have a large vessel full of water at 120c all of this will vaporise into steam until the valve is shut and the pressure increases or the water temp falls below 100c at 1.013bar (atm)

so the things that determine the amount of steam available will be the flow restrictions = pipes/valve/tip

The size of the heating element will only determine how quickly it can get a set body body of water to the required temp.


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## Spazbarista

It's the tip. You can tell it is without doing anything. When you shut off the steam valve it carries on steaming for a moment, which shows how restrictive the tip is. (Twin tip stops straight away when you spin the valve)


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## RisingPower

lookseehear said:


> I've wondered about this for a while. Surely steam power is mainly a function of the following things:
> 
> 
> Steam tip (how quickly you can let steam escape - the tip being the limiting factor)
> 
> Steam boiler element size (how quickly you can generate steam). You're only having to put in the energy lost through steaming and radiated heat would I guess be fairly insignificant if steam power is what you're concerned about.
> 
> 
> Obviously if you set your steam boiler at 1.4bar then that means that when you start steaming you'll have a lot of power initially but when the steam pressure drops and the element is fully on it's the element vs the steam tip (assuming the valve is fully open).
> 
> The Duetto has a 1.4kW steam element, according to Rave coffee the Expobar has a 1.2kW steam element, and they both can have an assortment of tips. Surely there can't be much difference between the two, unless the Expobar on test was supplied with a steam tip with holes that are too large meaning the element can't keep up with the steaming and the pressure drops quite quickly. Would be good to do a side by side comparison!


I think the only key difference between the expobar and the duetto was the larger capacity boiler on the duetto, though even that is marginal. Iunno, would be good to see them compared.


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## mattpitts74

Hi There

I have an 6 month old Expobar duel boiler, I did a lot of research before buying and its a great machine, especially for the price!! Sadly need to free up some cash so I am looking to sell, its the plump or tank version and I would accept £950 ono. Sadly I need the cash for more essentials than coffee, hence the sale. I will be posting it for sale on the for sale section of this website, so do let me know if your are interested?

Cheers

Matt


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## twistywizard

I would have been had it been in 3-4 weeks time. Sadly will not have the cash until then







On the off chance it is still around then I will message you. I suspect it will be snapped up by then mind.


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## mattpitts74

No worries, if i still have it i'll let you know!


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## lookseehear

RobD said:


> With regard to steaming, if you set your pressure stat at 1.4 bar you will have boiler full of water at about 120c but at that pressure it is not boiling the same as a cars coolant system, as soon as you open the steam valve you reduce the pressure in the cylinder allowing the water to reach boiling point and vaporise into steam, as you now have a large vessel full of water at 120c all of this will vaporise into steam until the valve is shut and the pressure increases or the water temp falls below 100c at 1.013bar (atm)
> 
> so the things that determine the amount of steam available will be the flow restrictions = pipes/valve/tip
> 
> The size of the heating element will only determine how quickly it can get a set body body of water to the required temp.


But boiling is an endothermic process ie as the 120 degree water is flashing to steam, it's also sapping the energy stored in the hot water hence why releasing pressure will cause the temperature to drop very quickly. It's this latent heat that the element is competing against, not just getting the water up to temp in the first place.


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## twistywizard

Well after having a poke around and reading/watching a load of videos. I am going to give one a crack in Dual Boiler format. Reservoir model as I will not be plumbing it in.

Got to wait until I return from a work trip and have sold on one of my shotguns to fund. Will be a nice little christmas present.


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## forzajuve

Good choice, I'm sure you'll be happy with it. The only doubts I have is over build quality given some comments online, however I dont think anyone on here has any complaints at all.


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## Spazbarista

I've not seen any build quality issues rear their heads yet, but overall it is a workman like product without any of the niceties of the Rocket machines. I think theyve improved the internal build quality over the years and ironed out some of the issues.

I will say this; a set of dark wood handles from BB make it look pretty classy.


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## twistywizard

I do actually like the look of it.. I know it is not a Rocket but then it is a lot less. I have seen those handles. Christmas present maybe


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## twistywizard

Well thanks for all the help guys







I missed out on the used one but just bought one. Being delivered tomorrow.


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## garydyke1

Welcome to shiny goodness


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## jimrobo

Gary your machine is ridiculously shiny still! I'm going to come round with a dirty cloth


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## twistywizard

Well he turned up Friday







Which is great as I boxed Silvia up for despatch on the Thursday!

Monster!!! Did not expect it to be quite that heavy. Took me a little while to realise the smell once it had been heated up was the Plastic on the back of the piece of metal that seperates the Reservoir and boilers.....

Had a decent play with it and love it







Big difference to the Silvia as to be expected. Not played around that much with the temp, offset etc. I do have a couple of questions for owners of this or similar though.

I have set the PID at 94! I know this will vary with different coffees but is this a good starting point?

Offset I have set to 7 based on what I read on Home Barista. Again what do people use?

I was under the impression as it was dual boiler it did not need a flush like a HX machine. However I have read if you have left it sat for a while you should flush through about 3oz of water before pulling a shot. Do I need to do this? What is the reason behind this? Does it simply heat the grouphead a bit more?

Lastly I have noticed that I seem to need less coffee in the basket with Brewtus. Again I realise all coffees are different but I am aiming for around 16-17g is this is adecent starting point?


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## Nimble Motionists

Also interested in the answers as I picked up my second-hand brewtus yesterday. I've moved up from a knackered old krups with pressurised baskets so finding it quite (!) different.


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## garydyke1

twistywizard said:


> 1. I have set the PID at 94! I know this will vary with different coffees but is this a good starting point?
> 
> 2. Offset I have set to 7 based on what I read on Home Barista. Again what do people use?
> 
> 3. I was under the impression as it was dual boiler it did not need a flush like a HX machine. However I have read if you have left it sat for a while you should flush through about 3oz of water before pulling a shot. Do I need to do this? What is the reason behind this? Does it simply heat the grouphead a bit more?
> 
> 4. Lastly I have noticed that I seem to need less coffee in the basket with Brewtus. Again I realise all coffees are different but I am aiming for around 16-17g is this is adecent starting point?


1. Mine sits at 92 most of the time, I have calabrated my machine as accurately as I could by checking i get flashing to steam at 99C with my set offset

2. Offset has been adjusted so that 99c gives me flashing to steam, 98c does not.

3. I flush 1oz of water to preheat my cup, other than that no cooling/warming flushes. Just make sure you repeat the same process each time for consistancy

4. This depends on the basket youre using. In my 18g VST I use 17.5-18-18.5 depending on the type of coffee. With the kit that arrived from Bella B, I remember dosing in the 16-17g range


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## twistywizard

How do you go about setting up the Offset to obtain the flashing point?

I am doing that as well for cup warming so that is good.

I am currently using a Synesso Double basket. However I am ordering a VST with tamp from madebyknock


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## twistywizard

Also Brew Pressure what are you running at?

Adjustment wise, how is this done. I know where to make the adjustment on the machine however measuring wise how do I go about that? Is it possible without a Portafilter equipped with a Presure gauge. Can I put in a blind basket and use the onboard pressure gauge as a guide?


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## Nimble Motionists

*Stupid question alert* it says the feet are adjustable, is that just by twisting them or am I missing a trick? They don't seem to be all that adjustable. Trying to shave a few mm off so it will slide under the kitchen cupboards :S


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## garydyke1

twistywizard said:


> How do you go about setting up the Offset to obtain the flashing point?
> 
> I am doing that as well for cup warming so that is good.
> 
> I am currently using a Synesso Double basket. However I am ordering a VST with tamp from madebyknock


Set your machine to 99c leave for 25 mins and see if you get steam/bubbling water. If you dont try 100 and so on. Report back with your findings


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## garydyke1

twistywizard said:


> Also Brew Pressure what are you running at?
> 
> Adjustment wise, how is this done. I know where to make the adjustment on the machine however measuring wise how do I go about that? Is it possible without a Portafilter equipped with a Presure gauge. Can I put in a blind basket and use the onboard pressure gauge as a guide?


With a blank filter mine reads 9.5BAR on the machine gauge, comparing to a portafilter with external gauge which read 9.25BAR


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## twistywizard

Thanks for that. When you say bubbling/steam do you mean when it is just sat 'idling' or when you pull the lever and do a blank shot?


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## garydyke1

twistywizard said:


> Thanks for that. When you say bubbling/steam do you mean when it is just sat 'idling' or when you pull the lever and do a blank shot?


This should explain


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## twistywizard

Right I did it. Bubbling was evident at 102, perhaps slightly at 101 but 100% doing it at 101. Nothing at 99 and 100 I couldnt detect any.


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## garydyke1

Did you leave at least 15-20 mins in between temperature changes?

Increase the offset by 2 and try again. do symptoms currently present at 101 now show at 99c instead? If so perfect, your PID is as accurate as it can be


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## twistywizard

Apologies poor english!!

Yep I left it as per the Video between temp changes

99 nothing

100 nothing

101 perhaps slightly

102 evident

The offset is currently set at 8 so bump it up to 10 then and try? So ideally I want the bubbling/steam to be evident at 99 then? After this do I leave the PID set for instance at 10 or back down to 8?


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## garydyke1

You want :

98 nothing

99 perhaps slightly

100 evident

so bump it up to 10 and try again. If correct then leave at 10..and reduce the PID to 92 as a start point and adjust to taste


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## twistywizard

Excellent cheers for taking the time to help will do that later tonight when I get in.


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## Tigermad

Reviving this old thread. Just about to but the leva dual boiler. What grinder would you recommend to pair with it around the £300-£400 or less mark?


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## DoubleShot

Ceado e37? Second hand of course!


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## Tigermad

DoubleShot said:


> Ceado e37? Second hand of course!


Thanks. Bit steep for me. Was looking at the mignon for now. Any good for a starter?


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## DoubleShot

Lots of happy owners of Mignon's. No doubt the small form factor helps with SWMBO. But you can do plenty better with a budget of up to £400 if happy with a well looked after second hand grinder.

Just a smidge over budget but worth considering is my Ceado e37 which I too was using with a Expobar Leva DB.


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## Tigermad

Need to get my posts up before I can see the for sale thread on here.


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## Tigermad

I can get the mignon half price with the machine. Thought it was a bargain.


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## risky

The Mignon is a great starter grinder. For people just starting off pairing it with a Gaggia Classic for example (although one member on here did have it paired with an L1 for some time, this was more to do with pleasing the other half).

But the Expobar really deserves a grinder on the same level.


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## DoubleShot

risky said:


> The Mignon is a great starter grinder. But the Expobar really deserves a grinder on the same level.


Agree.


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## Tigermad

risky said:


> The Mignon is a great starter grinder. For people just starting off pairing it with a Gaggia Classic for example (although one member on here did have it paired with an L1 for some time, this was more to do with pleasing the other half).
> 
> But the Expobar really deserves a grinder on the same level.


Thanks. I am keeping my eyes peeled for some second handers, can't afford more than £350-£400


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## Tigermad

DoubleShot said:


> Lots of happy owners of Mignon's. No doubt the small form factor helps with SWMBO. But you can do plenty better with a budget of up to £400 if happy with a well looked after second hand grinder.
> 
> Just a smidge over budget but worth considering is my Ceado e37 which I too was using with a Expobar Leva DB.


Thanks but would prefer something a bit of a newer model.


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