# Stovetop Espresso



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

What sort of grind consistency should you aim for with a moka pot? I have a little grinder I use for a French Press.......should it be finer? And also,should these be aimed attacking a small espresso shot or a longer, more traditional americano type drink


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Nokia pots are just a little coarser than for espresso


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

All the Moka pot coffee I've ever had has been pretty intense. You can certainly use it as a base for longer drinks with the addition of milk or more water. Or think of it as 'espresso' and sip from a demitasse.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I've been drinking it wrong then, as I just pour the lot into a mug









I know you don't tamp and level fill the basket. Used to use this method with pre-ground stuff before the machine came along.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> What sort of grind consistency should you aim for with a moka pot? I have a little grinder I use for a French Press.......should it be finer? And also,should these be aimed attacking a small espresso shot or a longer, more traditional americano type drink


 Grind just coarser than espresso, speed is the essence - Mine improved out of all recognition after I was shown to fill with boiling water from the kettle & douse it in cold water as soon as it gets noisy. It's like a really intense filter, less acidic tho. Rave signature makes a feckin delicious milk drink in one, like a melted bar of bournville


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I dare say the stuff I've had was made the way the Hotmetalette's spanish family made it, which might have been stronger than necessary. They always poured a bit of it into hot milk "calentito" for a breakfast drink. My mum used hers to make "espresso style" short shots for after dinner. I'm sure if you get the ratio right you could drink it straight from a mug without further dilution - I am no expert on Moka pots! French press was my thing until the home espresso bug struck.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

AFAIK Italians prefer a Mokka pot for breakfast, then espresso for the other times of the day.


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## Cirya (Jan 2, 2016)

I have found that if you use pre-heated water in the pot, you can actually use any grind as long as it's not too fine to block the filter screen. Just adjust the stove heat to adjust pressure and contact time to taste. So coarser grind --> less heat makes a bit rounder, more filter-like drink and finer grind --> more heat makes it taste more intense, espresso-ish even. If you use same heat for both grinds, coarse grind will extract too quickly, spurt everywhere and taste sour as fine grind will take forever and rip the hair off your neck.

I haven't timed my moka pots as the contact time is a bit tricky to measure. I have a cast-iron stove which isn't the quickest to heat so I usually preheat it to about the desired temperature while I pre-boil the water in an electric kettle and grind the beans. This gives the stove around five minutes to heat up which seems to have been enough. My temp is usually from low medium to high medium depending on the grind. If you have a really good and uniform grinder, the heat may need even more adjustment. My grinder produces quite a lot of fines which restricts the flow regardless to the grind size.

When the first drops of coffee appear, I shut down the heat to keep the rest of extraction as gentle as possible and let it glide through with remaining heat of the stove and the pot. You dont want to extract the last bits with the highest temp since that goes easily too far. When the gurgling/foaming starts I take the pot off the stove to keep most of the bitter stuff out and pour the drink immediately to cups. The wet towel trick is probably useful if you have to wait longer.

I've got some nice cups this way but it takes a bit of trial and error with the grind size and stove heat. Some coffees naturally need/tolerate more heat than others so I just start somewhere in the middle and try to figure out what went wrong this time. When I manage to dial in with a specific coffee, I usually use finer grind (~ coarse espresso) with higher heat for milk drinks and coarser grind (from fine drip to coarse drip) with lower heat for black coffee.

Hope this helps!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You're usually limited as to brew ratio, due to basket & reservoir volumes. A cup is often ~50g from 8-9g of coffee, so to get a mugful from an undiluted brew might take ~30g of coffee...quite a hit, unless severely under-extracted.

Weighing the coffee dose & brew produced will clarify things.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

That is a real eye-opener actually. I didn't realise they were so 'tunable' and the relationship between grind size, stove heat etc. That explains a lot, not least how some are getting filter strength and others espresso. Every day's a school day - cheers for the explanation.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

thanks all for your thoughts. If I wanted to brew a coffee, that I could drink undiluted as a longer drink, would that be targetable or am I better going for a short intense shot and watering it down. My pot will not be here for a couple of days, hence the questions


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## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

Rhys said:



> AFAIK Italians prefer a Mokka pot for breakfast, then espresso for the other times of the day.


Italians use a Moka at home and drink espresso at bars when they're out of the house. A typical working person would thereby end up having a Moka-prepared drink for breakfast, but not because they prefer it to espresso or cappuccino.

Matt


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> thanks all for your thoughts. If I wanted to brew a coffee, that I could drink undiluted as a longer drink, would that be targetable or am I better going for a short intense shot and watering it down. My pot will not be here for a couple of days, hence the questions


I'd water it down for a longer drink, but you might have a stronger constitution than me? How many "cups" is the pot?

Moka pots usually produce coffee 2-3 times stronger than regular brewed coffee, so factor that into cup size/dilution.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I bought a 6 cup pot

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272113654063?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

but since the proper ones are so reasonable, I might go back in an buy a 2/3 one


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

next daft question. Is a mock pot a mock pot or is there something in particular to look out for?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Steel works on induction hobs & regular, aluminium on regular hobs.

So long as you have a good seal on the screw thread & grind in the ball park, it's just a matter of controlling the speed of extraction (too fast can cause under-extraction). Whether you add cold, or hot water to the base will depend on the heating method & brew time.

Always watch the pot, don't leave it, don't let it puff steam. Otherwise they're pretty fool proof & fairly forgiving.


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## Cirya (Jan 2, 2016)

The brew ratio is actually one thing to consider with the moka pot, since grind size can change the dose weight close to 10%. My 6-cup takes around 29g of coarse and about 32g of fine grinds. The heat/pressure adjustment seems to take care of this extraction-wise but it's good to know anyway. This, combined with resulting change of flow resistance (which you compensate with heat/pressure) is probably what actually makes the subtle flavour differences in the cup.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I made a couple of drinks today. It is a 6 pot Tomorrow I will measure things but I ground 30 gms and was probably left with about 5 or so that I did not put in the basket. I have a gas hob and used hot water and stuck the pot on the smallest gas ring, the one for simmering. Once it came to pressure, the coffee trickled out of the spout. When I turned it off the flow stopped, so I presume that the grind is to fine. I poured about 4 ounces and topped up with 3 ounces or so of to water. The drink was fie but I kind of know it can become better as I learn it. I have a 2/3 cup one coming as well.


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## Cirya (Jan 2, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> I made a couple of drinks today. It is a 6 pot Tomorrow I will measure things but I ground 30 gms and was probably left with about 5 or so that I did not put in the basket. I have a gas hob and used hot water and stuck the pot on the smallest gas ring, the one for simmering. Once it came to pressure, the coffee trickled out of the spout. When I turned it off the flow stopped, so I presume that the grind is to fine. I poured about 4 ounces and topped up with 3 ounces or so of to water. The drink was fie but I kind of know it can become better as I learn it. I have a 2/3 cup one coming as well.


The gas hob doesn't retain very much heat compared to electric cast iron stove so just lower the heat when the liquid starts to flow but don't shut it down completely. You're aiming for steady and consistent flow without breaks (too cold) or gushes (too hot). You have to find the right heat curve and grind for your hob and pot combination according to your taste and that may take a few times to get in the ballpark. Gas hob is like a sports car in terms of heat control compared to a cast iron stove which is more like a bus..


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## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> ....
> 
> I have a 2/3 cup one coming as well.
> 
> ....


I have had a couple of different makes of the two sizes you'll have for the last 25 years. I rarely use the bigger one, it is probably down to lack of expertise but I can never get as good a brew from it as I do out of the smaller one. Will be interested to read about your experiences and thoughts.

I have used all kinds of heat source too - gas, halogen, induction and woodburning stove, all producing similar results, I feel you just need to let the process happen as slowly (gently) as you can i.e. no vigorous boil.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

I'm in the other camp, boiling water in base, high heat till it starts to extract, then down to simmer, as soon as it makes noise, I dip in the sink.

I only use mine for 2 milk drinks when over at my sister's once a week now. Rave signature works well for me at an espresso grind, Italian job a little coarser - never used one with a lighter roast, never occurred to me tbh! I associate moka pots with an intense base for a morning milk drink made on a burner when working away, anything lighter went in the bodum travel press.

I might steal it back & have a play with some lighter stuff!


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## Vieux Clou (Oct 22, 2014)

I use a Bialetti Brikka 10 cl with 14g of coffee. This just fills the filter. Boiling water from kettle etc as above. The weight on the central shaft bumps up the pressure in the lower pot, so the extraction is more complete. It's a strong brew & pretty high on caffeine - much more so than espresso. Good, though.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Vieux Clou said:


> I use a Bialetti Brikka 10 cl with 14g of coffee. This just fills the filter. Boiling water from kettle etc as above. The weight on the central shaft bumps up the pressure in the lower pot, so the extraction is more complete. It's a strong brew & pretty high on caffeine - much more so than espresso. Good, though.


Yeah, there is a bit more of a bang to it, but longer contact time...


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## delgag64 (Feb 20, 2016)

oursus said:


> Grind just coarser than espresso, speed is the essence - Mine improved out of all recognition after I was shown to fill with boiling water from the kettle & douse it in cold water as soon as it gets noisy. It's like a really intense filter, less acidic tho. Rave signature makes a feckin delicious milk drink in one, like a melted bar of bournville


This seems so obvious - I can't believe I haven't tried it before! For months back when I was using a moka pot I stood by the stove for ages waiting for it to bubble.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

delgag64 said:


> This seems so obvious - I can't believe I haven't tried it before! For months back when I was using a moka pot I stood by the stove for ages waiting for it to bubble.


I know, I can still remember the incredulous look on the face of the diminutive Italian lass who showed me - apparently dousing it is just as important... Anyway, following her process, it was immediately less bitter.


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## Lefteye (Dec 30, 2014)

Moka pot 6 cup I've found takes as mentioned earlier 27-30g of coffee I grind fine and when adding to the holder mix with a fork to distribute. Used this for a week with foundry yirg last summer - fantastic. Try with light roasts too. Although I know you love the hard stuff DFK. I doubt I could drink the 6 cup in a oner but I get the jitters easy!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I bought a 6 cup, then before it arrived bought a 2/3 cup as well. Thats the one I use and I find14 gms or so ground not too finely produces enough liquid for me to top up with water and have about 5 to 6 ounces. I ran out of coffee this week which I have notion for ages so turned to source some in an emergency, but, it proved to be not the best! I have at least one of these a day and look forward to playing around with different types


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> I bought a 6 cup, then before it arrived bought a 2/3 cup as well. Thats the one I use and I find14 gms or so ground not too finely produces enough liquid for me to top up with water and have about 5 to 6 ounces. I ran out of coffee this week which I have notion for ages so turned to source some in an emergency, but, it proved to be not the best! I have at least one of these a day and look forward to playing around with different types


How you getting on with the different beans in the stovetops DFK? Any tips or observations?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Well,I have reverted to type and am back drinking my favourite darkens and nowt else! I can tell you the 2/3/ cup makes a sweeter drink than the larger one but that maybe down to me and the way I work, but, it still makes a very pleasant short long drink!


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Yeah, I reckon so too, the larger ones spend a little too long on the heat, I think... I've not really tried lighter roasts in one, but yeah, the chocolatey milk drinks you can achieve make for a most civilised breakfast


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

So moka pot brands... Can I buy a cheap one, or will I regret it? Long term it's to shove in a cupboard at my parents for when I visit them... Though I'll be getting the hang at home first so I can make it look effortless!!


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Missy said:


> So moka pot brands... Can I buy a cheap one, or will I regret it? Long term it's to shove in a cupboard at my parents for when I visit them... Though I'll be getting the hang at home first so I can make it look effortless!!


If I was buying a new one, I'd make sure to get a stainless one, that would work with all hobs, tbh 2nd hand bialettis are cheap enough on fleabay


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

oursus said:


> If I was buying a new one, I'd make sure to get a stainless one, that would work with all hobs, tbh 2nd hand bialettis are cheap enough on fleabay


What hobs wouldn't an aluminium one work on? (Other than induction, not a consideration)


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Missy said:


> What hobs wouldn't an aluminium one work on? (Other than induction, not a consideration)


Just that









Tbh they all. work a lot better on a gas hob, the stainless ones are a bit hardier & easier to clean


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

oursus said:


> Just that
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which is partly why I thought it was perfect for the parents! I have one that makes "cappuccino" for camping, but we have ceramic hob at home, but my parents have a gas range.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Missy said:


> Which is partly why I thought it was perfect for the parents! I have one that makes "cappuccino" for camping, but we have ceramic hob at home, but my parents have a gas range.


The mukka express? I heard there is a real knack to using those?

Yeah, I have a solid hob, tbh I use the little suitcase gas burner instead


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

oursus said:


> The mukka express? I heard there is a real knack to using those?


Only if you care what comes out. If all you want is hot milky caffination after a night in a cold damp tent where you have to dash 20miles in the rain and pitch dark for a wee.

Then it's perfect.

The usual result is frothy brown caffeine. I'm sure I could do better, but basically the coffee and some steam swirl round in the milk.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Cheap like that?

5-6 yrs old, used once a week


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Missy said:


> Only if you care what comes out. If all you want is hot milky caffination after a night in a cold damp tent where you have to dash 20miles in the rain and pitch dark for a wee.
> 
> Then it's perfect.
> 
> The usual result is frothy brown caffeine. I'm sure I could do better, but basically the coffee and some steam swirl round in the milk.


Mmm, that was what I heard, apparently if you perform some arcane ceremony involving sacrifice of a virgin ferret and use aged apple wood charcoal, they can be coaxed into making something decent, never actually seen it done tho!


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Fetch me a ferret! And a gas hob. And a couple of virgins!


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Missy said:


> Fetch me a ferret! And a gas hob. And a couple of virgins!


Easy tiger! You don't want to peak this early in the week


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

oursus said:


> Easy tiger! You don't want to peak this early in the week


You're right. Cancel the ferret. The virgins would be handy, I'll get them cleaning the house.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Missy said:


> You're right. Cancel the ferret. The virgins would be handy, I'll get them cleaning the house.


Virgins who clean house? I live in South Yorkshire, the way you know a 15 yr old is burgling your house, is they leave their kid outside in the pushchair... Like that, right?


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

oursus said:


> Virgins who clean house? I live in South Yorkshire, the way you know a 15 yr old is burgling your house, is they leave their kid outside in the pushchair... Like that, right?


Well OK. Tbh they can nick what they want from us- I'll just pile my kids in their pushchair while they are busy hunting for anything worth over £2.75 in our house.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Missy said:


> Well OK. Tbh they can nick what they want from us- I'll just pile my kids in their pushchair while they are busy hunting for anything worth over £2.75 in our house.


Free babysitting! I've got the dog fetching the post & guarding coffee corner... Babysitting not too much of a stretch from there, surely?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

@Missy, I'll send you this one if you're interested http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bialetti-Elegance-Induction-Stainless-Espresso/dp/B0009Q1DSS/ref=sr_1_1?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1459927700&sr=1-1&keywords=bialetti+stainless+steel I don't use it, only tried it a couple of times.


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## Jedi oh (Mar 17, 2015)

jlarkin said:


> @Missy, I'll send you this one if you're interested http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bialetti-Elegance-Induction-Stainless-Espresso/dp/B0009Q1DSS/ref=sr_1_1?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1459927700&sr=1-1&keywords=bialetti+stainless+steel I don't use it, only tried it a couple of times.


Thats the sort I'm looking at buying. Think they look good and wanting to try something different. I'm assuming this is a good one? They look quite good value on Amazon.

Cheers.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Jedi oh said:


> Thats the sort I'm looking at buying. Think they look good and wanting to try something different. I'm assuming this is a good one? They look quite good value on Amazon.
> 
> Cheers.


Ah damn, maybe I should have just bumped my old sale thread instead! :-D

I assume it's a good one, I bought a cheap small one just before this and that was horrible, this feels really well made and solid. To be honest, I bought it out of a little nostalgia from some coffees I used to have with a friend but literally tried it a handful of times about a year ago and didn't see that changing...


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## Jedi oh (Mar 17, 2015)

Thanks. May have to treat myself. Call it an early Christmas present.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have a stainless steel one and an aluminium and I cannot taste the difference, but that is not to say there is not one. Just look through the threads for recipes and remember, you are producing a thick liquid which will need watered down!


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

@jlarkin thanks- feel free to bump your for sale thread for Jedi Oh.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

@dfk41 watering down? What if I want it to put hairs on my chest?!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Missy said:


> @dfk41 watering down? What if I want it to put hairs on my chest?!


borrow some of mine!


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> borrow some of mine!


Thanks for that glorious image. Will you be shaving or waxing? I'll PM you my address, as its a loan let me know when you'd like it returning. I'll try not to lose too many hairs in use.


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## Greezay (Apr 16, 2016)

The coffee I get from my Moka (just started using one) is a bit 'muddy'. Is this normal or should I use a coarser grind?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Can be normal. If the coffee tastes good, maybe drop it through a filter cone, or Aeropress to reduce mud. Otherwise, leave the last sip.

Grind coarser, but if the coffee starts to become acidic, you may have gone too coarse.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Greezay said:


> The coffee I get from my Moka (just started using one) is a bit 'muddy'. Is this normal or should I use a coarser grind?


How does it taste?


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