# VST vs IMS



## kikapu

Quite a few of us now have both of these baskets I was wondering what your preference was and any findings? Have seen a post from Gary and Glenn that certainty indicate a difference in taste l

For me taste wise I am not sure....

But the extraction on the ims on bpf always 'looks' great. Started reusing the vst again and looked like the chump I am! Lots of spritsing and the cups end up all splattered. But even with this the shots dont taste bad!

So at the moment I use the ims cause it makes me look better especially when we have guests!!









Forgot to say I have been using the 20g baskets dosed with 20g I do have the 22g ims but yet to use this.


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## kikapu

Had 10 minutes or so this morning so I tried 3 different shot preps with the VST basket all with my convex torr tamper;

1. dose into basket, tap side of basket to collapse any pockets, level flat tamp, polish - a good looking pour although a dead spot just behind the center.

2. dose into basket, tap side of basket, nutating tamp with weight of tamper then level flat tamp to finish, polish - two cones dead spot and sprits.

3. dose into basket, no tap to basket, nutating tamp with weight of tamper then level flat tamp to finish, polish - channelling for sure really light crema and sour tasting

4. IMS basket, usual routine - nutating tamp with weight of tamper then level flat tamp to finish, polish. - lovely looking pour no obvious dead spots central cone.

Taste wise shots 1 and 4 tasted the best (but bear in mind I didnt play with grind setting so No1 pour was 40sec, No.4 was 30seconds) but I was mainly trying different techniques to see if I could get a pour out the VST that looked like the ones on the IMS (I know looks isnt everthing!)

NOTE: I dont usually tap the PF before tamping but thought I would try this to see if it cured my VST dodgy looking pours


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## Milanski

I'm finding similar experiences.

My IMS is 20g and my VST is 18g. I use the larger IMS for my shots (20g in) and the smaller VST for Miss Ski's flat whites (17g in).

The IMS pours tend to be clean with a central cone but the VST pours tend to have deadspots and 2+ cones.

I don't re-dial the grinder though so that may be the problem.

Im currently dialled in for the IMS so would have to redial for the VST specifically to be sure it's the basket, however I seem to remember always having distribution problems with the VST (though my basket distribution has def improved since then).


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## Mike mc

Interesting read guys.mite have to try one of these ims baskets


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## kikapu

Milanski said:


> I'm finding similar experiences.
> 
> The IMS pours tend to be clean with a central cone but the VST pours tend to have deadspots and 2+ cones.
> 
> .


Yeah found this a lot. Having had a month or so with good looking pours and consistent dosing and prep routine with the IMS went back to the VST and my pours look like they always have! (not great)


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## garydyke1

The VST versus IMS is a tricky one. There doesnt appear a like-for-like A versus B comparision on sizing? Correct me if Im wrong.

IMS would have been doing themselves a favour if they simply had 15/18/20/22 like VST , their advertised basket sizes seem a little 'off' with what you actually can fit in them IMO


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## Mrboots2u

Vst have a recommended dose level of plus or minus 1g to the basket .

Ims ???? So 16 g in the ims basket leaves a lot of headroom for me ( not saying this is good or bad ) which will effect extraction ...

Vst seem less forgiving of prep too but I'm not sure what this means


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## garydyke1

I dont see how a basket can correct defects in shot prep, be it distribution , grind quality or tamping etc.

I know that VST basket hole size / placement results in a higher flow rate which allows an appropriately finer grinder, leading to a higher extraction. Conversely a smaller hole size/profile/placement might lead to a 'throttled' flow, requiring a slighhtly coarser grind for a decent flow rate, and, have the coffee puck more saturated ...appearing to be a more visibly even extraction.

The old EP HQ baskets did a great job of making extractions look amazing , however I found them roasty and flat in the cup compared to a VST because you couldnt grind as fine


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## Mrboots2u

Didn't explain that very well. Im saying i seem to get prettier extractions with the same shot prep in an IMS than i do with a VST.

Probably for the reasons above

Re taste with my current grinding set up , the jury is out if i can taste any difference between them ...


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## kikapu

garydyke1 said:


> I dont see how a basket can correct defects in shot prep, be it distribution , grind quality or tamping etc.


This is what I was wondering is the IMS like stabilizers on a bike ie giving you the feeling you are doing great!?









Dont get me wrong I am not slating the IMS baskets just find it odd that I like a UKBC contender and look like the muppet I am







when using a VST!


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## kikapu

Mrboots2u said:


> Re taste with my current grinding set up , the jury is out if i can taste any difference between them ...


This is the issue I have too one looks great other ugly but does the nice looking pour taste better?? Dont really know!

The one thing is for sure at the moment with the VST I am more likely to have a higher percentage of issues with the pours and end up with under extracted shots but then I havent used my VST much recently so might just keep trying


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## garydyke1

Mrboots2u said:


> Didn't explain that very well. Im saying i ...


Wasnt directed at you , just another thought shower


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## Mrboots2u

garydyke1 said:


> Wasnt directed at you , just another thought shower


Ah ok ... Would the fact the i have a lot more headroom in my IMS for a 16 g dose than i do I'm my VST effect the pre infusion and therefore the prettiness of the extraction ? Is that more of a thought flush that a shower from me though ?


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## garydyke1

There is more air to displace between top of coffee bed and shower screen and the air has to go somewhere right? ie through the puck.

I suspect a lot of the puck expansion actually happens after the shot has finished as 135PSI pressure would have a big compression effect, however a certain amount of head space is absolutely needed to maintain puck integrity as a clear layer of water will sit above the coffee bed..


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## Charliej

Mrboots2u said:


> Ah ok ... Would the fact the i have a lot more headroom in my IMS for a 16 g dose than i do I'm my VST effect the pre infusion and therefore the prettiness of the extraction ? Is that more of a thought flush that a shower from me though ?


Well the extra headroom will allow the puck to swell more and thus saturate a bit more fully, and in theory give a better extraction.

I can't comment on the prettier pours thing yet as I haven't got my naked pf yet, but I do know that whichever basket I'm using IMS or VST both spouts start flowing at the same time so I guess my prep is fine and the IMS basket seems to promote a "sweeter" tasting shot as opposed to the VST. I've been dosing 20g in the 14/20g IMS and 20g in the VST 20g baskets.


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## aaronb

I'm wondering about the headspace thing too.

I tend to either dose 17g or 18g in the stock Londinium basket, and it comes up to the ridge or just below giving quite a bit of headspace.

On the other thread it was suggested that h24.5 would be better than the h26.5 as there is much lower headroom. I prefer the idea of the h26.5 though as the dose sits nicely in the middle of the range. hmmm


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## Mrboots2u

garydyke1 said:


> There is more air to displace between top of coffee bed and shower screen and the air has to go somewhere right? ie through the puck.
> 
> I suspect a lot of the puck expansion actually happens after the shot has finished as 135PSI pressure would have a big compression effect, however a certain amount of head space is absolutely needed to maintain puck integrity as a clear layer of water will sit above the coffee bed..


seen this ?


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## The Systemic Kid

Mrboots2u said:


> Ah ok ... Would the fact the i have a lot more headroom in my IMS for a 16 g dose than i do I'm my VST effect the pre infusion and therefore the prettiness of the extraction ? Is that more of a thought flush that a shower from me though ?


3mm clearance between puck and shower screen is recommended by Schomer in his book on espresso.

Don't buy the six gram range listed for some IMS baskets.


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## garydyke1

At 19 seconds the removal of air in the headspace appears to expand the coffee bed rather than the initial hit of water. interesting.....


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## Chriswilson

Mrboots2u said:


> seen this ?


Well that answers the question "what goes on in there?" - thanks for the vid link MrB2U - fascinating!

cheers, cw


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## gman147

I've went back to VST because a) my ims is ridged which I don't like b) my pucks are more uniform post extraction

However, I can't quite tell which has a better taste because I've been switching beans like a mad man lately.


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## kikapu

Used my 28.5h IMS (18-22g) basket for the first time this morning (20g coffee) and my extractions looked worse than my VST pours ie bad, two cones, dead spots!! Much worse pour than I had ever got using my IMS 26.5h with 20g (doing probably over 100 shots with it)!! I guess if I used 21-22g might be a lot better but think for now gonna use my VST


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## garydyke1

kikapu said:


> Used my 28.5h IMS (18-22g) basket for the first time this morning (20g coffee) and my extractions looked worse than my VST pours ie bad, two cones, dead spots!! Much worse pour than I had ever got using my IMS 26.5h with 20g (doing probably over 100 shots with it)!! I guess if I used 21-22g might be a lot better but think for now gonna use my VST


'28.5' means nothing to me but the one I have here is clearly a 22g basket judging by flow rate and grind setting required for decent pours.

The '26.5' sounds like its a 20g basket & '24.5' likely to be an 18g? Just a guess


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## Xpenno

garydyke1 said:


> '28.5' means nothing to me


height in mm? Not that this helps with how much coffee you should stick in it...


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## kikapu

yeah its the height in mm. It is odd that there is nothing on the boxes stating dose size range!


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## Milanski

kikapu said:


> Used my 28.5h IMS (18-22g) basket for the first time this morning (20g coffee) and my extractions looked worse than my VST pours ie bad, two cones, dead spots!! Much worse pour than I had ever got using my IMS 26.5h with 20g (doing probably over 100 shots with it)!! I guess if I used 21-22g might be a lot better but think for now gonna use my VST


18-22g IMS with 20g in is what I use and I'm finding more consistent shots.

Perhaps the curve in the bottom of the basket encourages any potential stray cones to flow more centrally therefore somewhat falsely giving us the impression it's a single-cone beaut.

I can't say I can notice a taste difference, however shots seems thicker with IMS


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## garydyke1

Xpenno said:


> height in mm? Not that this helps with how much coffee you should stick in it...


I knew that was the measurement , but unless there is a published formula for depth versus dose weight then its useless info to a coffeegeek


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## garydyke1

kikapu said:


> yeah its the height in mm. It is odd that there is nothing on the boxes stating dose size range!


Exactly my point. I have yet to see anyone raving about them from the professional ranks


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## MWJB

garydyke1 said:


> At 19 seconds the removal of air in the headspace appears to expand the coffee bed rather than the initial hit of water. interesting.....


Lever shot, raising of the piston causing a partial vacuum before the group fills with water? No 3 way solenoid so we can't see the effect of depressurising the group at shot end & effect on the puck (expansion)? Doesn't make the video any less fascinating though.


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## The Systemic Kid

garydyke1 said:


> Exactly my point. I have yet to see anyone raving about them from the professional ranks


Reiss seems pretty taken with them - does he count as professional??


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## garydyke1

The Systemic Kid said:


> Reiss seems pretty taken with them - does he count as professional??


I guess so (I dont follow his forum) but I haven't seen the positive commentary from any shops or the twitter coffee community


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## The Systemic Kid

Finding 20grms in the 26.5mm IMS about the 'right' dose weight leaving sufficient space for expansion during pre-infusion.


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## kikapu

garydyke1 said:


> I guess so (I dont follow his forum) but I haven't seen the positive commentary from any shops or the twitter coffee community


Have many tried them though?

I think the fact VST is the basket of choice for UKBC and WBC(?) will hold them back even IF they are as good. They need to throw some money at the WBC!


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## garydyke1

A fair few in Brum have , dunno about elsewhere.

I dont think a shop would use them solely because the UKBC / WBC have them anyway, VST dont sponsor shops. You'd hope any shop worth its salt would be using what tasted best & easiest to use? 3FE use NS baskets and rate them higher than VST


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## The Systemic Kid

Recall scepticism being levelled at VST baskets when they were introduced - now regarded as benchmark.


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## garydyke1

The Systemic Kid said:


> Recall scepticism being levelled at VST baskets when they were introduced - now regarded as benchmark.


Sure. I was probably one of them. Ive not tasted anything to make me want to change (yet)


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## The Systemic Kid

Just dosed 19grms in the 24.5mm IMS - as I suspected, it was one gram too much. Left imprint of shower screen on puck and interfered with the pour.


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## Xpenno

I wish I had a higher tolerance to both caffeine and the taste of espresso. I love comparisons but I would end up a mess like I did yesterday.


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## garydyke1

Xpenno said:


> I wish I had a higher tolerance to both caffeine and the taste of espresso. I love comparisons but I would end up a mess like I did yesterday.


You can spit it out but it feels wrong


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## The Systemic Kid

With you 100% Spence. When running a few back to back shots for testing, still find with just sniff and spit, have to watch the caffeine intake. Get to a point where it puts me off for a couple of days.


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## tribs

The 18g VST seems perfect with the PID'd Gaggia. Perfect pours, perfect knock out whole pucks, wonderful espresso with any type of coffee.

It doesn't work quite as well with the Andreja HX though. Pours are ok, but the espresso tends towards overly bright and acidic with lighter roasts particularly and the pucks never knock out in one.

The 22g IMS works much better in the Andreja. Dose needs to be 21-22g to get the best out of it. The pours, though are terrible. Worse than the 18g VST. Dead spots and multiple tails are common, but the espresso is generally better. More sweetness, better balanced acidity as long as I don't screw up the flush.

I can't help think, that the VST is the better instrument and the larger dose and subsequently coarser grind of the IMS improves its results.

Of course it could be that I've not quite mastered the correct technique for the baskets with the different machines.


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## kikapu

Interesting might try uping from 20g to 22g in ims at the weekend and seeing what that does as I certainly found the 20g dose in the 18-22g ims poured awful!


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## AndyS

I have been using VST filter baskets almost exclusively for quite a while. But I would love to try the IMS, too. I can't find them in the US. Would anyone on this forum be willing to purchase and send me a few?

[edit] Or suggest a vendor who would ship to the US?


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## Mrboots2u

AndyS said:


> I have been using VST filter baskets almost exclusively for quite a while. But I would love to try the IMS, too. I can't find them in the US. Would anyone on this forum be willing to purchase and send me a few?
> 
> [edit] Or suggest a vendor who would ship to the US?


Ill check the londinium forum for you and report back as there was a similar conversation going on there about how to get them in the uSA


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## billcoxfam

Originally Posted by AndyS

I have been using VST filter baskets almost exclusively for quite a while. But I would love to try the IMS, too. I can't find them in the US. Would anyone on this forum be willing to purchase and send me a few?

[edit] Or suggest a vendor who would ship to the US?

I have just purchased the basket recommended by Reiss from espresso services.co.uk , very quick delivery.

ES11231 - IMS Marzocco E61 Double Basket 16/20g Price £14.95 + VAT	Add to Basket

I am traveling to USA next Friday and if I could obtain delivery before then, I could post to you from Fl.


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## DavecUK

kikapu said:


> Quite a few of us now have both of these baskets I was wondering what your preference was and any findings? Have seen a post from Gary and Glenn that certainty indicate a difference in taste l
> 
> For me taste wise I am not sure....


I had them both some time ago, got a number of different competition style baskets, with different configurations. If I'm honest...I didn't taste any difference at all in the cup. I think Bella Barista still sell the different ones, but for me...hell they're just expensive baskets. I want to pick up one of the IMS shower screens when I am there, or at least have a look at it. Again not because i would expect any difference in the cup...i just wonder if it will keep things cleaner?

For single baskets there are huge differences, but not becuase of IMS or VST or whatever (and I can't remember if they even do them. It's the shape/depth that makes a big difference.

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/filter-baskets

However, for me the biggest taste difference comes with single vs double basket. The single is a real PITA to use, but when you get it right, the shots can be surprisingly different, in a good way. However I am basically Lazy, so have swapped to double baskets for now....but a whole new world to rediscover on the Vesuvius.


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## AndyS

Big thanks to billcoxfam, Mrboots2u, Vig and others who very kindly offered to help me buy the IMS baskets. I was able to order them from espressoservices.co.uk with shipping to the US.

I look forward to receiving them and posting about my experiences here.

Cheers,


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## Gera

Had to comment on this one.

after reading some favorable review of the IMS competition baskets I decided to put one to the test.

I bought the B70 2T h28.5 E basket (basically an 18-22g basket for E61 group) loaded 21g, and faced it against 20g in VST20 and 22g in VST22.

All shot where dialed for 50% brew ratio in 30sec (from memory the IMS required courser grind). Ignore the look of the shot! both VST extracted to 19.5% and were beautiful and rich. IMS barely reached 18.5% extraction and while not tasting bad lucked some sweetness and was a bit tart. Granted this wasn't done on a large enough scale to have a clear decision but a 1% extraction difference is a biggy.

I think I'll stick to VST untill further testing.


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## The Systemic Kid

Be interesting to see the result in the IMS dosed at 22grms instead of 21grms. Don't know why IMS list their baskets as having a dose margin range of 4-6grms. VST certainly don't. Surely IMS baskets cannot be manufactured as optimised for such a wide dose range.


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## charris

AndyS said:


> Big thanks to billcoxfam, Mrboots2u, Vig and others who very kindly offered to help me buy the IMS baskets. I was able to order them from espressoservices.co.uk with shipping to the US.
> 
> I look forward to receiving them and posting about my experiences here.
> 
> Cheers,


So Andy, what do you think?


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## charris

Another different question: Would the IMS and VST baskets fit the Classic portafilter? I have ordered the naked one with walnut handle that can be found on ebay.uk:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bottomless-Naked-Portafilter-Walnut-Blind-Filter-Puly-Caff-Gaggia-Classic-Coffee-/161234484962?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item258a52fee2


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## jeebsy

Yes, yes they do


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## Charliej

jeebsy said:


> Yes, yes they do


No No No they don't *UNLESS* you order the Gaggia specified fitment ones who's model numbers start with B68 rather than B70, if you buy the B70 fitment the baskets are too deep and also the rim of the basket won't fit a Gaggia portafilter properly.


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## jeebsy

So yes, as long as you buy the one that fits the classic


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## Ilias

Sorry to resurrect this old thread 👻

Any thoughts for the IMS 28.5h? I am a bit worried that the curved bottom will cause uneven extractions (ie the center of the puck will be thicker.

Currently I use the one that came with marax and looking for one that can hold more coffee as sometimes I like longer drinks while I work.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Ilias said:


> Sorry to resurrect this old thread 👻
> 
> Any thoughts for the IMS 28.5h? I am a bit worried that the curved bottom will cause uneven extractions (ie the center of the puck will be thicker.
> 
> Currently I use the one that came with marax and looking for one that can hold more coffee as sometimes I like longer drinks while I work.


 Buy it? Or Buy a VST 22g or 24g? Make sure you have a suitable portafilter which can cope with the depth of the basket OR...

Make two coffees? (That'd be my preference in all honesty. I use a VST 18g and make coffee as many times as I fancy during the day. Sometimes twice, sometimes 3 times). There's no harm in leaving the machine on all day either.


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