# Conflicting extraction information = Confused



## Xander (Jul 30, 2016)

Hi all,

I'm hoping someone (or collectively, a few people) will be able to point me in the right direction to getting the most out of my current setup:

Gaggia Carezza Deluxe (With the pressurised portafilter... yeah, learning this isn't a great thing)

Gaggia MDF Burr grinder - pretty decent, has a very fine adjustment.

The problem i'm getting is with the extraction - i've read that I should expect 150% the weight of the dried coffee in espresso. I've also read that my extraction time should be nearing the 30 seconds.

My problem is that i'm getting that 150% within around 5-6 seconds from the machine!? I've experimented with different grind settings, different coffees and I can't seem to get it right. Any ideas would be welcomed and appreciated.


----------



## UncleJake (Mar 20, 2016)

Easier to not work in percentages - but weight. Weigh in to the portafilter (say 18g) and weigh out (liquid espresso). Aim for 1:2 ratio at first - so 36g out - somewhere around the 25-45 sec mark and refine to taste.

It sounds like you're not grinding fine enough. I'd also swap out the pressurised basket for a normal one.

I have a spare if you need it.


----------



## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

First thing to do is ditch the portafilter and get a non pressurised.

Sounds like your grinds aren't fine enough.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Drawback of your machine is the pressurised pf ...... im not sure if it's swappable or not tbh....

As said work in weight in weight out , rather than percentages , it's the language we are all used to here ..

Lastly what is the coffee you are using and how old is it ( is it fresh roasted ? supermarket ? )


----------



## Xander (Jul 30, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> As said work in weight in weight out , rather than percentages , it's the language we are all used to here ..
> 
> Lastly what is the coffee you are using and how old is it ( is it fresh roasted ? supermarket ? )


Sorry if I confused things with the percentage thing, I think the method was the same, just the language was different. I meant 150% of the coffee grind weight as espresso. e.g. 20g coffee gives 30g espresso.

Coffee was roasted earlier this month and it's bought from my local indie coffee shop.



UncleJake said:


> It sounds like you're not grinding fine enough. I'd also swap out the pressurised basket for a normal one.
> 
> I have a spare if you need it.


Thanks, i'll dial down the grinder and see what kind of results I get. Thanks also for the offer of the normal basket (that's really generous of you), with the pf on the Carezza not being full size, would it fit?

I think there's a mod to make it unpressurised but finding any solid info on it has eluded me so far and it makes me wonder whether I should cut my losses, sell as is, and buy myself a 'proper' machine.


----------



## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Xander said:


> whether I should cut my losses, sell as is, and buy myself a 'proper' machine.


Yes if you can afford to.

Though you need to make your grind much finer first! Once you have a new machine you'll be wanting to upgrade the grinder too.

But no reason you can't make adequate coffee in the meantime!

Remember, we will all be very very sad if you don't weigh in and out!


----------



## UncleJake (Mar 20, 2016)

Xander said:


> Sorry if I confused things with the percentage thing, I think the method was the same, just the language was different. I meant 150% of the coffee grind weight as espresso. e.g. 20g coffee gives 30g espresso.
> 
> Coffee was roasted earlier this month and it's bought from my local indie coffee shop.
> 
> ...


Language - yes - I realised that after posting. Although we do tend to talk in ratios around here. 1:2 being a good starting point (so 200%).

Also I don't know your machine I'm afraid - so you're right my standard size basket might not fit. If it does you're welcome to it.

The problem with the pressurised filters is that they make a wide range of grinds look good - even when they don't taste it - so it makes finding consistency very difficult.


----------



## Xander (Jul 30, 2016)

Well turns out the pf only holds around 10g of coffee... so a 20g shot is pretty small (and still tastes weak with the much finer grind. The puck is also pretty watery which I think is another trait of the pressurised pf. Time to start window shopping I think!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Xander said:


> Well turns out the pf only holds around 10g of coffee... so a 20g shot is pretty small (and still tastes weak with the much finer grind).


Grind finer, a 1:2 shot shouldn't be weak. Ignore watery pucks.


----------



## UncleJake (Mar 20, 2016)

Xander said:


> Well turns out the pf only holds around 10g of coffee... so a 20g shot is pretty small (and still tastes weak with the much finer grind. The puck is also pretty watery which I think is another trait of the pressurised pf. Time to start window shopping I think!


Perhaps so...

How long did that 20g shot take to pour? A traditional single espresso would have been in the region of 7g to 14g. Although these days that's on the small side.

If you work out a budget the forum will happily point you in the direction of well tested, well respected machines. And there's always some bargains knocking around the for sale section here.

Unfortunately I suspect you'll need a grinder too.


----------



## Xander (Jul 30, 2016)

UncleJake said:


> How long did that 20g shot take to pour?


About 6-7 seconds

Budget wise i'm not even sure where to start!







I mean i'd be happy to work towards any budget (within reason) to get some sort of benchmark to work from.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Xander said:


> About 6-7 seconds
> 
> Budget wise i'm not even sure where to start!
> 
> ...


Hi,

Can you try to get your grinder / machine to yield the following:

Input: 10g of coffee in the basket (you said previously it holds about 10g);

Output: 20g of liquid in the cup;

Time: In 25-30s.

If that's not possible, then I am afraid upgraditus might have just begun For you


----------



## Xander (Jul 30, 2016)

pessutojr said:


> Hi,
> 
> Can you try to get your grinder / machine to yield the following:
> 
> ...


Hah, I really don't think that's at all possible... but i'll try!

With regards to the grinder, is the MDF a poor grinder? It seemed to have very good reviews when I researched before buying.

Machine wise I did my research too and bought a Gaggia Baby (recon) but it turned out it hadn't been reconditioned at all (!) so they replaced it with the Carezza.


----------



## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

I started my journey with a Gaggia Classic and a MDF grinder and it was a suitable grinder to start and was able to grind fine enough for espresso but wasn't long into my journey that I was wanting better equipment.


----------



## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Gushing shots may be to do with your distribution. I'm not certain how much it affects pressurized portafilter baskets because I've not used one before but it makes a big difference to flow through a normal basket.

If you are already grinding fine, work on getting the coffee evenly distributed in the basket and tamped level. A healthy degree of obsession will pay off i.e. get your puck perfectly even and perfectly level. Do you have a decent tamper or are you using a stock plastic tamper?


----------



## Xander (Jul 30, 2016)

Obnic said:


> Do you have a decent tamper or are you using a stock plastic tamper?


The instructions for the machine say to not tamp at all due tot he pressurised filter but I do like to get it level like you say and I use the back of the scoop for that.


----------



## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Xander said:


> The instructions for the machine say to not tamp at all due tot he pressurised filter but I do like to get it level like you say and I use the back of the scoop for that.


I've tamped a pressurised portafilter, it will help.

Grind as fine as your grinder will allow, let us know how long that takes. Ideally you don't want the coffee to instantly start flowing.


----------



## Xander (Jul 30, 2016)

Thanks for all your suggestions and help so far everyone, this place is awesome!

Before I set off to work today I set my grinder as fine as it would go, Settings 1&2 produced nothing but noise so had to settle for setting 3. Got 10 grams and tamped the best I could.

This reduced the flow to a drip and looks like the pressure was too great and overflowed from the top of the pf!!









So maybe I need to find a middle ground...

I'll get me coat...


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Xander said:


> Thanks for all your suggestions and help so far everyone, this place is awesome!
> 
> Before I set off to work today I set my grinder as fine as it would go, Settings 1&2 produced nothing but noise so had to settle for setting 3. Got 10 grams and tamped the best I could.
> 
> ...


That's somewhat good.

Keep grinding coarser until you get those parameters and let's go from there.

Good work!


----------



## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Xander said:


> This reduced the flow to a drip and looks like the pressure was too great and overflowed from the top of the pf!!


Tee hee! Happy memories. We've all played a version of this game. You're on a well trodden path....

I predict you'll find your happy medium, then you'll upgrade your tamper, perhaps buy a knock out box and a cleaning brush, but you'll keep looking at your machine until one day you can't take it any longer... Then we have you. Bwa ha ha ha!


----------



## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Always easier to start from too fine than too coarse IMO! You may find this the weakness of your grinder, that you can't make the tiny tweaks needed. But we now know it can grind fine enough for your machine!


----------



## Xander (Jul 30, 2016)

SUCCESS!

So i've been trying different combinations of grind setting and tamp and last night I think I finally hit on the right one.

Due to the finer grind and tamping (where I didn't before) has meant I can actually get more coffee in the basket so i've been aiming for a 30g shot from 15grams of coffee. It seems that grind setting 5 is the answer! Two 30g shots (I like strong coffee) in a flat white was spot on perfect!

Thank you for all your help with this!


----------

