# Considering a Fracino - should I pull the trigger?



## DoubleShot

Well done on such an informative thread series530. (http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?9164-From-a-Classic-to-a-Cherub-a-novices-view)

Purchased a brand new Nespresso Lattissima back in January. Returned it unopened after seeing what I considered a great deal (more than 50% off!) on a D'elonghi ES5500 B2C machine. Unfortunately that too was returned due to a defective water tank in Feb this year, then stumbled across this forum. After lots of reading, thought I had decided on which semi-auto machine to purchase...a forum favourite, the Gaggia Classic no less. Almost ordered a brand new one from Amazon for £228 delivered but lots of members mentioned having purchased for far less from Amazon Warehouse, so I kept checking on a daily basis but never saw any for less than £192. Most were £205 or even more. Didn't seem enough of a saving considering they are listed as used with cosmetic damage. Next switched my attention to the for sale section of these forums. Sadly missed out on one which would have been ideal as it had most/all of the mods I would have wanted to do, already done. Seller also had what I thought was the grinder I wanted, a Mazzer Super Jolly. A few other Gaggia Classics have appeared but none with Auber PID including shot timer, something that interested me. After reading more and more on these forums, I kept seeing Rancilio Silvia v3 machines mentioned as a better machine than a Gaggia Classic, especially as a second hand purchase. One has just been posted in the for sale section today for what appears to be a good price. Was very tempted. Queue more reading which resulted in my coming across mention of the Fracino Cherub and to this thread.

Sadly I see I'm a little late to the party after reading that the price of a new one has jumped all the way from £630 upto £760 (if paying by bank transfer, otherwise £1,122!). That's a big jump after first considering a second hand Gaggia Classic in the £150 ish price range. Second hand Cherubs can go for anything between £350 and £480 depending on age plus what else is included in the sale which seems good value compared to second hand Rancilio Silvia v3 in general.

When it comes to technology products in general I seem to really suffer from upgradeitus and not something I wanted to extend to my coffee machine purchase, hence why I went from considering a Gaggia Classic to a Rancilio Silvia v3 and now to a Francino Cherub. The more I read, the more indecisive I seem to be with regards to which machine to choose. Originally spend went from £175 on Nespresso machine to £275 on B2C and now could be anything from £350 to £450 ish for a second hand Cherub and upto £250 for a second hand Super Jolly. Quite an investment for someone who has only drank maybe 3 or 4 espresso's. More of a flat white plus other milk based coffee drinker.

Would welcome any opinions/advice on whether to pull the trigger on a Cherub over a Classic or Silvia. Also would a SJ be a good choice of grinder? I'm hoping both items to last me for the foreseeable future without upgrading either.

Thanks in advance.


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## Mrboots2u

Better espresso=better flat whites .....


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## Mrboots2u

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?16821-Forum-Offer-Fracino-Cherub-%A3750-delivered!!!

£750


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## Glenn

Paired with an SJ, I would choose the Cherub over a Classic or Silvia (if the budget allows for this)

Espresso is the base for the milky drinks and once you have the basics you can use any of these machines (as the principles are the same)

There is less fuss when using a Cherub and you can make more drinks back to back (or steam more milk quicker)

You are not likely to 'need' to upgrade and most people will not outgrow the Cherub.


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## DoubleShot

Thanks Mrboots2u.

Really hoping a well looked after second hand one appears in the for sale section some time soon. Can then put money saved towards various other accessories that I'll want unless of course included with purchase of the machine.


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## Mrboots2u

Glenn said:


> Paired with an SJ, I would choose the Cherub over a Classic or Silvia (if the budget allows for this)
> 
> Espresso is the base for the milky drinks and once you have the basics you can use any of these machines (as the principles are the same)
> 
> There is less fuss when using a Cherub and you can make more drinks back to back (or steam more milk quicker)
> 
> You are not likely to 'need' to upgrade and most people will not outgrow the Cherub.


Glenn its never need

Its always WANT!!!!!!!!


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## Sharkie

DoubleShot said:


> Thanks Mrboots2u.
> 
> Really hoping a well looked after second hand one appears in the for sale section some time soon. Can then put money saved towards various other accessories that I'll want unless of course included with purchase of the machine.


Possibility mine may be coming up for sale next month, all dependent on the wife and if I can convince her on the merits of me upgrading to an L1


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## DoubleShot

Mrboots2u said:


> Glenn its never need
> 
> Its always WANT!!!!!!!!


Can't agree more. It's what I always get told by friends/family after I give numerous reasons why I have upgraded from one item to another!


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## DoubleShot

Sharkie said:


> Possibility mine may be coming up for sale next month, all dependent on the wife and if I can convince her on the merits of me upgrading to an L1


I'm very interested. Please can you provide some details of your machine. Don't worry, I won't hold you to making any commitment to sell should SWMBO not allow it, lol!


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## Sharkie

Had it for about 8 months, bough second hand from a local pub as they couldn't train constant turnover of staff on how to use it. Was in a right state but after a thorough strip, service and polish came up a treat. New shower screen and group gasket and she makes fantastic espresso.

Not sure of age as no label on boiler but I would guess over 5 years old.

Single and double portafilter and naked, also 2 and 4 hole 1.2m steam tip.

As this is not yet for sale and I don't want to break any forum rules I won't state a price but it will be substantially cheaper than a new one.


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## DoubleShot

Which grinder are you using with your Cherub? Think this evening is the first time I've ventured into the Francino sub-forum after months of reading through the Gaggia sub-forum and making tonnes of notes. Guess there's a few different grinders that the majority of owners recommend for best results from a Cherub?


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## Sharkie

DoubleShot said:


> I'm very interested. Please can you provide some details of your machine. Don't worry, I won't hold you to making any commitment to sell should SWMBO not allow it, lol!


If all goes to plan I will also be parting with my vario grinder should you be after a complete setup.


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## Sharkie

Have been using a vario with very pleasing results however upgradeitus got the better of me and the wife treated me to a eureka zenith 65e.

There is a subtle difference in taste but you have to taste the shots back to back to really notice.


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## badger28

I wasted £100 on a delonghi machine. Then had a gaggia classic for nearly a year, which worked well. However I got my cherub about 6 months ago and it has made the world of difference.

I can make coffee quicker and various cups back to back. The espresso has more depth of flavour also.

To summarise... Get a cherub, ultimately it saves time and is a great machine.


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## DoubleShot

Baratza Vario? Don't think I've come across that grinder during all my reading/research but just watched an informative video on by chriscoffee. Eureka Zenith 65e...nice upgrade/gift!


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## Sharkie

DoubleShot said:


> Baratza Vario? Don't think I've come across that grinder during all my reading/research but just watched an informative video on by chriscoffee. Eureka Zenith 65e...nice upgrade/gift!


Take a look at this thread

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7819


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## Sharkie

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7819


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## DoubleShot

badger28

Just the type of recommendation I'm looking for to sway me towards a Cherub. Being able to produce various different drinks (cafe au lait, latte, cappuccino etc) in less time would certainly interest me. Also fancy trying my hand at latte art!

Which grinder are you using? Done any mods to your Cherub? Any other items you'd recommend from your experience to get the best out of a Cherub?


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## series530

I've owned my Cherub and Mignon for the best par of 18 months now. The original poster asked me directly for my opinions and I decided to update my thoughts via this thread.

Firstly, I cannot say that coffee making rules my life. It isn't my reason for getting up in the morning. That said, I really do enjoy a decent cup before I start work. We began our own business at the start of this year and there simply isn't the time to spend pouring loads of cups each day. Anyway, I digress:

Much as espresso neat held appeal when I worked abroad a lot in my old job, I quickly decided that that milk based drinks held more appeal domestically. This was where the Classic fell down as it was very much a serial process on account of the small boiler and the recovery time. The Cherub is so much better in this regard as the recovery time is minimal by comparison. In fact, its perfectly possible to be steaming milk as well as pulling shots at same time. It's also a fantastic tea urn as the rest of my family seem to prefer tea over coffee. Thus, I can pull cappuccino and still make a few mugs of tea as well.

Where the Classic was much more forgiving with novice usage the Cherub is not. Or, more correctly, was not. It took quite a while to get good enough at using it. I still seldom pull the perfect shot but, to my taste at least, I pull good enough shots. Every Saturday my wife and I go to an independent coffee shop in town and buy a coffee and a sticky bun (a treat after a fraught week being self employed) and the coffee is never as good as at home. It's just a nice ambience and the reward is nice. So, the Cherub must be better than I sometimes give it credit for.

I find myself filling up the water reservoir far more often than I ever expected. I guess that boiler and that Flying Scotsman of a steam wand are to blame.... Oh, and the tea urn!

i changed the porta filter seal about 3 months ago. It was a bit of a faff getting the old one one but a new one via Happy Donkey went in easily. That and the odd clean out and back flush and that's the only maintenance.

its still not as beautiful as some of the Italian fare. I got mine when they were cheaper and, to me it was good value. If its still good value I don't know as I haven't looked at upgrades since buying it. Our money has been channelled into the business and not into coffee kit.

Annoyances? One or two: a bigger reservoir would be nice. The low water alarm seems to come on too late - much better to have had more warning. With finer steam wand tips it works great. With the OEM ones it was too fierce. The drip tray is OK for me but probably too small for some users. It does, however, nicely stack in the dishwasher.

if I had to buy again, would I buy another? Hard to say really. On the capability of this machine, yes I would. Compared to others taking price into mind, I don't know as I would have to research the kit again and then make an informed decision.


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## DavidBondy

Sharkie said:


> Possibility mine may be coming up for sale next month, all dependent on the wife and if I can convince her on the merits of me upgrading to an L1


Sharkie, I have an almost new L1 for sale. I am asking £1,750 collected from Herts/Essex border. If you're seriously interested then I could hold it for you, subject to a deposit. See Sale/Swap forum for details and a photo!

David


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## badger28

DoubleShot said:


> badger28
> 
> Just the type of recommendation I'm looking for to sway me towards a Cherub. Being able to produce various different drinks (cafe au lait, latte, cappuccino etc) in less time would certainly interest me. Also fancy trying my hand at latte art!
> 
> Which grinder are you using? Done any mods to your Cherub? Any other items you'd recommend from your experience to get the best out of a Cherub?


I am using a second hand gaggia md64 which is a commercial grinder. It is large but reasonably good (I am told).

The only thing I have changed on the cherub is the steam tip to 1mm * 4 hole. This gives me a chance at creating microfoam rather than overpowering the milk.

As serial has covered, there are certain annoyances... The drip dray I have to empty once every 3 days. The reservoir I fill every 4 days (I make 2 espressos and 2 cappas each day).

Service and support from fracino has been very good when needed (I asked their opinion on flushing etc)

Other items... Good grinder with little retention - this helps with speed.

There are many people on here who have a lot more experience than me, but for an aspiring coffee nerd this machine does the job for me and any visitors to the house!


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## Sharkie

DavidBondy said:


> Sharkie, I have an almost new L1 for sale. I am asking £1,750 collected from Herts/Essex border. If you're seriously interested then I could hold it for you, subject to a deposit. See Sale/Swap forum for details and a photo!
> 
> David[/


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## The Systemic Kid

Sharkie said:


> Hi David
> 
> I did see your machine for sale and ordinarily I would have gone for it immediately however my brother in law has kindly offered to put a new one through his business and claim back the VAT for me so I would be saving £100 over the price of yours.


Hope no-one from HMRC is reading this


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## series530

The Systemic Kid said:


> Hope no-one from HMRC is reading this


Maybe his brother in law is in the coffee business. If he isn't it may be something of a stretch. Certainly wouldn't try pushing it through my business like that !


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## DoubleShot

series530 & badger28

Many thanks for your detailed replies.

Would there be any need/benefit of a PID on a Cherub or is the temperature stability not as much of an issue as with other lesser machines such as a Gaggia Classic?


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## badger28

It has a reputation of being very stable (I haven't tested this). I find that if I keep my method the same then the resulting drink is consistently the same. However I never know what temperature it is actually brewed at.


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## series530

DoubleShot said:


> series530 & badger28
> 
> Many thanks for your detailed replies.
> 
> Would there be any need/benefit of a PID on a Cherub or is the temperature stability not as much of an issue as with other lesser machines such as a Gaggia Classic?


I leave mine to heat up for at least 30 mins and I have no complaints.


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## DoubleShot

Grinder recommendations that would ideally suit a Cherub, second hand, around £250?


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## gwapenut

> Hope no-one from HMRC is reading this

Especially with proof of (your daughter's) ID on the photo you posted of your machine! I'd change that if I were you.


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## Sharkie

The Systemic Kid said:


> Hope no-one from HMRC is reading this


If they are perhaps they can explain why there RTI software for basic PAYE tools is so s##t !


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## Mike mc

Sharkie said:


> If they are perhaps they can explain why there RTI software for basic PAYE tools is so s##t !


Tempting fate there mate.especially considering how some members act on here.anonymous email to hrmc with screen shots.get it deleted asap


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## Yes Row

Mike mc said:


> Tempting fate there mate.especially considering how some members act on here.anonymous email to hrmc with screen shots.get it deleted asap


Really Mike? Never witnessed member action along these lines, shocked really


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## Mike mc

Yes Row said:


> Really Mike? Never witnessed member action along these lines, shocked really


the amount of messages the site owner recieved over my for sale thread(buyer asked questions via pm)i think its safe to say theres people on here with no life who would take pleasure in grassing someone up


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## Mike mc

My post has been moderated.check your pm mate


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## Glenn

A number of posts in this thread have been removed as they are not relevant to this conversation and could potentially land the posters in hot water.


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## shrink

I loved my cherub, and if you can get past the small operational foibles (small drip tray, water tank, etc) then it is easy to live with. It has the consistency to fire out shot after shot. If you were making multiple drinks, you could basically grind and brew back to back until you ran out of water!

Ditto on steam power. I preferred the middlingly powerful 4x1mm steam tip over the brutal 4x1.5 and the too tame 2x1mm tips. Even with four holes. The machine has enough power to run the steam basically until your tank runs out.

You don't need a PID as this is a heat exchanger, you don't really have any way to control brew temperature in small defined steps, the best you can do is adjust the pressure stat on the boiler if you want to run a little hotter or colder. In general, leaving it standard is fine.

The only thing to consider with an E61 based HX is that it will take a good 20-30 minutes to get fully warmed up prior to use, and that if left sitting on and idle for too long, (say more than an hour) you'll really want to run some water out of the group to purge the heat exchanger and get some cooler water in there.

All very easy to do in practice though.

I sold because I was risking having no job at the time, and now I have a chance to upgrade to a dual boiler, but for the budget, a cherub is generally as good as it needs to get. I even found it reasonably attractive.


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## DoubleShot

shrink

Thanks for your reply. I too like the Cherubs appearance, especially the all stainless steel version. Read a few comments from others who state they don't think it's a good looking machine. Compared to the coffee machines I've owned plus a Gaggic Classic or Rancilio Silvia that I had been considering purchasing for months...the Cherub looks stunning!

Would be very interested in your views on your Mazzer Super Jolly when used with a Cherub as that's top of my grinder short list. Also have you done any of these mods to yours: lens hood mod, sweeper mod and whippy mod? I don't know what they even mean but seen them mentioned on a few threads.


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## shrink

I used a quamar m80e with my fracino, and before that, a nuova simonelli MDX. They are broadly comparable my performance wise, although taste wise the best coffee I ever got out my fracino came from the MDX so make of that what you will. Same burr set and motor as the eureka zenith 65e.

The super jolly seems good, but I'm not a huge fan of dosers, so I'm modding as much as possible to mitigate the issues I have with them. I've done the sweeper mod. Next will be the cocktail shaker mod, then a new grinds chute for the exit from doser, and I have an idea how to mod that to break up any clumps.

Ideally I'd replace it with a doserless major, but that's a while away yet


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## DoubleShot

I would want a doserless SJ, possibly without hopper to save on space plus would usually be making no more than 1 or 2 drinks at a time so no need for a Kilo of beans on tap, ready to go, so to speak. There's currently a Quamar M80e in the For Sale section. I have not yet read anything about them. Up until a couple of days ago, I thought I wanted a Gaggia Classic and a Mazza SJ. But if there's a different/better option for similar money then I shall certainly consider it. Famous last words but I want my first grinder purchase to be my last or at least last me for many years before I feel it needs upgrading.


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## shrink

Avoid a doserless SJ... Very clumpy. And very very overpriced for what they are. Pretty rare used too.

The eureka zenith 65e, is smaller, doserless, has a better chute, and comes with a micro hopper. I'd say it's a better all rounder.

I liked the quamar, like the fracino, it has it's little operational eccentricities but once you get past them, I thought it was really good.


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## DoubleShot

Before reading on these forums how important a good quality grinder is, I had considered a cheap D'elonghi burr grinder on offer for around £40. Then made a short list which included: Iberital MC2, Mazzer SJ, Macap M4 and Eureka Mignon 2. All as second hand purchases off the For Sale section if/when they popped up. As you can imagine that's some hike in investment from a £40 starting point. Not sure I can justify going straight in at the deep end to something in the £600 new range for an Eureka Zenith 65e at this starting point of my journey into making 'real' coffee at home.


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## Chriswilson

FWIW D'shot (and you'll hear the hushed whispers starting about............now:exit I use an MC2 with my Cherub.

I know all the arguments and will be upgrading the grinder at some point but I still get a good shot out of the Cherub.

This will doubtless improve in the fullness of time (around Crimbo with a bit of luck!).

MC2s are noisy, take an age to adjust, can suffer badly from static and are built to a price, but the combination will work.

I tend to stick to one bean, Rave's Italian Job and drink it as an espresso or flat white.

So go for it!!

cheers, cw


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## Mrboots2u

DoubleShot said:


> Before reading on these forums how important a good quality grinder is, I had considered a cheap D'elonghi burr grinder on offer for around £40. Then made a short list which included: Iberital MC2, Mazzer SJ, Macap M4 and Eureka Mignon 2. All as second hand purchases off the For Sale section if/when they popped up. As you can imagine that's some hike in investment from a £40 starting point. Not sure I can justify going straight in at the deep end to something in the £600 new range for an Eureka Zenith 65e at this starting point of my journey into making 'real' coffee at home.


Don't buy the delonghi under any circumstances

Set a budget put up a wanted thread see what comes out

The mc2 can be a pain in the arse to adjust and you see a lot of them get resold quite quickly because of this

Buy second had and it opens up your option if you can go to£300. There a mazzer mini doser for under £300 on the sales threads

New would get you a mignion ( there is a blue second hand one on the sales thread still for £185 delivered )

I've not used an mc2 but I have seen a lot of user posts on here , relating to its poor adjustment mech and how loud it is , the majority of which lead to it be swapped for something else pretty quick ( make of that what you will )

There are other beans to Italian job









Cheers martin


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## Chriswilson

Can't argue with that Martin!

cheers, cw


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## DoubleShot

I've never owned a grinder but something that is very noisy and a pain in the behind to adjust are not things I'd be looking for in my first grinder.

Will mostly only be making one or two coffees at a time, in the mornings. Am I right in thinking an on demand grinder would suit my needs over a doser version? When I first started watching coffee making videos on YouTube, thought a thwacker looked pretty cool as that's what coffee shops seem to use. But in a home environment, more noise during the preparation process plus more likely hood of wasted grounds and cleaning necessary? Or have I got that wrong?


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## Mrboots2u

DoubleShot said:


> I've never owned a grinder but something that is very noisy and a pain in the behind to adjust are not things I'd be looking for in my first grinder.


Me neither I skipped the right of passage of an mc2 for these anecdotal reasons...

thats not to knock if for what it is , as second hand prices £60-80 there ain't alot that touches it in terms of delivering a fine enough and consistent enough grind to make a decent espresso .

It's just as with all things there are other " easier to use " and better value " ( entirely subjective statement ) options .

it is what it is , an entry level grinder at that price and therefore it shouldn't come as a surprise that a bit more cash gets you something a bit " better "

( there are other beans to hasbean also







)


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## Mrboots2u

DoubleShot said:


> I've never owned a grinder but something that is very noisy and a pain in the behind to adjust are not things I'd be looking for in my first grinder.
> 
> Will mostly only be making one or two coffees at a time, in the mornings. Am I right in thinking an on demand grinder would suit my needs over a doser version? When I first started watching coffee making videos on YouTube, thought a thwacker looked pretty cool as that's what coffee shops seem to use. But in a home environment, more noise during the preparation process plus more likely hood of wasted grounds and cleaning necessary? Or have I got that wrong?


Again all subjective

a doser will give you a clump free fluffy grind , most of them can be modded to give little mess and a small amount of retention and to single dose .

on demand grinders in general terms function better with a few beans in the hopper ( 100-150g ) dependant on the model .

If you going to change beans a fair bit ( I change every week with a subscription for instance ) then something you can single dose ( measure a weight grind and put in) may be a better option .

if you're only ever going to buy one blend , then an on demand topped up to keep it going would also be ok ....

If you havent the please read this thread

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?17071-Grinders-what-do-you-get-for-your-money


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## DoubleShot

Mrboots2u

Thanks for the link which I did read through yesterday.

Having only bought one bag of coffee beans to date (Lavazza Espresso), I will probably be trying a few different varieties to find a blend that I like. Not sure how often that will be? Probably take me 10-14 days to get through a bag at a time?

Guess the hardest part of all the readng I'm doing and questions I'm asking on these forums as to which grinder I should consider as my first purchase, is that I've never seen any grinders demoed in action so Someone can explain all the differences plus getting to see the results. YouTube videos are all well and good a basic overview but you can't ask questions if something needs explaining in a little more detail for example.

Having a short list of maybe 2 or 3 grinders that I'm interested in purchasing would be a good startng point. Followed by a demo of them in action, perhaps from a fellow forum member before making a final decision and perhaps starting a wanted thread plus keeping a constant eye on the For Sale section.


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## Mrboots2u

Where are you based


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## DoubleShot

West Oxfordshire.


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## 4515

Ive owned a Cherub for a while now (probably a year or so)

I started with an MC2 which was all of the things that are mentioned in this thread - noisy, hard to adjust and slow. It made coffee but results were varied.

I then moved to the Quamar which was a significant improvement in looks, build quality and taste in the cup. The buttons can be frustrating but other than that it did a good job.

I now have the Cherub paired with a Mythos which is a serious step up in terms of taste and consistency. The Cherub is not disgraced by this grinder at all.

Buy the machine and the best grinder that you can stretch to but bear in mind that at some point you may upgrade the grinder.


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## DoubleShot

That's kind of what I'm hoping to avoid if possible, upgradeitus. Famous last words and all that. I'd like to purchase a grinder that is well suited to my coffee machine (present choice looks likely to be a Cherub) but may be good enough 'should' I upgrade the coffee machine at some point further down the line. I'm hoping a Cherub and whichever grinder I do buy as my first purchases will keep me happy for many years to come. Would prefer a grinder that isn't huge as there's definitely a lack of worktop space available but I appreciate commercial grinders are rarely small and compact. Would prefer one that's not overly noisy or hard to work with when dialling in plus changing coffee beans. Don't have a fixed budget in mind. Went from considering a cheap and cheerful £40 D'elonghi burr grinder, to thinking £250 would get me a decent second hand commercial grinder such as a Mazzer, to now thinking I might need to spend £300+. If it ticks all the right boxes and can see me through the foreseeable future, I might even be able to justify spending a bit more but think I'd like to keep from spending over say £350 on a grinder and around £350-450 on a Cherub. Both must be in excellent second hand condition.


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## series530

DoubleShot said:


> That's kind of what I'm hoping to avoid if possible, upgradeitus. Famous last words and all that. I'd like to purchase a grinder that is well suited to my coffee machine (present choice looks likely to be a Cherub) but may be good enough 'should' I upgrade the coffee machine at some point further down the line. I'm hoping a Cherub and whichever grinder I do buy as my first purchases will keep me happy for many years to come. Would prefer a grinder that isn't huge as there's definitely a lack of worktop space available but I appreciate commercial grinders are rarely small and compact. Would prefer one that's not overly noisy or hard to work with when dialling in plus changing coffee beans. Don't have a fixed budget in mind. Went from considering a cheap and cheerful £40 D'elonghi burr grinder, to thinking £250 would get me a decent second hand commercial grinder such as a Mazzer, to now thinking I might need to spend £300+. If it ticks all the right boxes and can see me through the foreseeable future, I might even be able to justify spending a bit more but think I'd like to keep from spending over say £350 on a grinder and around £350-450 on a Cherub. Both must be in excellent second hand condition.


not sure how much the Eureka Mignon is now. It's certainly small and seems to work nicely with my Cherub.


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## DoubleShot

They seem to go for anything between £165 (Blue one currently available in For Sale section) and £210 to £220 mark. Usually less than a year old and therefore some warranty still left. Must say not a bad looking and compact sized grinder. It's on my short list now after your comment that it works nicely with a Cherub.


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## Mrboots2u

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?17727-Eureka-Mignon-Forum-discount&highlight=Eureka


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