# Coffee and milk



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

HAs this been discussed ? Even though I do not own an L1 any longer, I still read the blog every now and then, and the latest topic Reiss is on about, which to my mind makes perfect common sense. the theme is this:

If you bought a single malt, would you add water etc

If you buy a top quality tea, would you add milk to it.

If you buy a topicality SO bean, why on earth would you add milk to it?

You need to read the entry which is quite short:

http://londiniumespresso.com/blog/a-logical-argument-why-milk-and-speciality-coffee-don-t-mix

Makes you think a bit but I must admit I stopped by SO beans some time ago in favour of blends.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

There is a thread going on HB re that blog at moment.

First mention was here

http://londiniumespresso.com/blog/speciality-coffee-the-elephant-in-the-room

A good blend deserves

To

Be drunk black too

Though Shirley


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

hmmmm, what if you "like" the taste of milk in coffee ? .... Or is that not scene enough. ... I take the opinion that making a beverage is about what you like the taste of, not what you are meant to like the taste of because that's what someone else known in the scene has decided it's how I should like it.

a SO bean in milk, tastes like an SO bean in milk .. Which is different to a blend in milk ... It's all the same .... Just with milk

maybe I'll never be taken seriously in the coffee world and have a Twitter follower fan club, but at least I'll enjoy my coffee.

its a SO bean, it should be drunk as an espresso, cupped, drip, siphon, with or without milk

that said STOP adding syrups to them all


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

h1udd said:


> hmmmm, what if you "like" the taste of milk in coffee ? .... Or is that not scene enough. ... I take the opinion that making a beverage is about what you like the taste of, not what you are meant to like the taste of because that's what someone else known in the scene has decided it's how I should like it.
> 
> a SO bean in milk, tastes like an SO bean in milk .. Which is different to a blend in milk ... It's all the same .... Just with milk
> 
> ...


Please don't add

Milk to a cupping


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Ah, yes my bad, I didn't mean that ... The cupping needed to be in brackets







... Although, seeing that milk dramatically changes the profile, perhaps cupping with milk should be a thing ... I could start that and have my own YouTube channel


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

h1udd said:


> Ah, yes my bad, I didn't mean that ... The cupping needed to be in brackets
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lolz.... Give it a go . Split shots ftw- I can sit in both camps . Milk in brewed though makes Me Sad


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

but, would ou buy a single malt and add water, or even ice to it? Also to consider, is the fact that with lighter and lighter roasts knocking around, eventually you might have a situation where the coffee curdles the milk.....or is that fantasy!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> but, would ou buy a single malt and add water, or even ice to it? YES
> 
> Also to consider, is the fact that with lighter and lighter roasts knocking around, eventually you might have a situation where the coffee curdles the milk.....or is that fantasy! FANTASY


Sure you don't need to worry about your milk curdling


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Milk in brewed though makes Me Sad


Hmm that's interesting, what are the reasons for that?


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Surely the point is to drink what you enjoy. Some people will want to educate their palates and some won't. I prefer my espresso with milk, others don't. But believe you me I can tell the difference between different blends and SOs. I like SOs as flat whites and cappucinos as do my family. If that makes us ignorant peasants so be it.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

no one is saying you should not buy a 28 day hung fillet steak, burn it and cover it in tomato sauce, but the point is, with a SO, the skill of the roaster really comes through. I much prefer milk based drinks but I can honestly say I have had many SO which have been disappointing in milk. I keep on using the malt whiskey analogy, but so far plenty of peoples put milk in your SO but not coke in your malt


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> no one is saying you should not buy a 28 day hung fillet steak, burn it and cover it in tomato sauce, but the point is, with a SO, the skill of the roaster really comes through. I much prefer milk based drinks but I can honestly say I have had many SO which have been disappointing in milk. I keep on using the malt whiskey analogy, but so far plenty of peoples put milk in your SO but not coke in your malt


I'd buy a single malt and try it with a dash of water and/or put ice in it. I'd also buy a decent steak and have it with some other food items, potentially even a sauce on it. They're odd analogies to my mind, have what you want with what you want seems the best approach to me...Do what makes you happy *within reasonable bounds of not hurting others*


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jlarkin said:


> I'd buy a single malt and try it with a dash of water and/or put ice in it. I'd also buy a decent steak and have it with some other food items, potentially even a sauce on it. They're odd analogies to my mind, have what you want with what you want seems the best approach to me...Do what makes you happy *within reasonable bounds of not hurting others*


The point is, keeping with food, if you went to Gordon RAmsays restaurant and ordered a dish you would expect it to have been cooked with enough skill to be eaten as intended, and not covered in sauce. There ought to be enough going on in the shot, layers of taste, different flavours etc so milk is not going to enhance but bastardise it. If you feel you have to have milk in espresso, the point Reiss is making (and I agree) is do not drink SO but stick with blends. Yes, this is a free world and no doubt if you want to you will....but is adding milk to a top quality SO any worse than adding sugar?


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> but, would ou buy a single malt and add water, or even ice to it? Also to consider, is the fact that with lighter and lighter roasts knocking around, eventually you might have a situation where the coffee curdles the milk.....or is that fantasy!


Adding water to whiskey actually is the reverse situation and is regarded as a perfectly acceptable practice. Drinking whiskey neat is quite outdated I believe (don't drink it myself).

Let me try and recall how it was explained to me;

When you drink 'neat' whiskey, or any other high ABV sprit, you will feel a burning sensation. This goes hand in hand with your tastebuds being anaesthetised. You are therefore unable to appreciate the flavour of the drink as you can't taste it properly. You should add water until the burning sensation goes away. Also, adding water will reveal many flavours that are totally hidden if you drink it neat.

Adding ice is a no-no as you cannot control the dilution. This is why whiskey stones were invented (basically stones that you put in the freezer that will cool the drink but not dilute it)

Obviously it goes without saying you don't use tap water as the chlorine will ruin the taste. This probably opens a whole can of worms of water discussion the same as we have on here.

Anyway regarding milk: Drink coffee however you enjoy it. I would never put milk in brewed, yuck. However I do occasionally make a flat white or whatever you would call a small milk drink. Interesting to see the flavours that come out and it's obviously far less intense than drinking straight espresso. But I would always judge a coffee on its performance cupped, brewed and as espresso, never with milk in.

With regard to the milk curdling, is there actually any science behind that claim?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jlarkin said:


> Hmm that's interesting, what are the reasons for that?


I'm being a snob ...honestly drink what you wanna drink and enjoy but , if you ask me

I get people might not like espresso - it's small - it's strong - it's often badly made .

Filter - not small - not strong - easier to make ( a cafe should be able to do a decent batch brew at the very least ) - more delicate flavours - i propose milk kills brewed even more than it does spro. But what I think honestly doesn't and shouldn't matter a great deal..... But you did ask


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> But what I think honestly doesn't and shouldn't matter a great deal..... But you did ask


It matters to me, not because it'll change what I'm doing but because it's interesting to hear somebody's reasoning rather than the end result.

Thank you for taking the time to share that.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> The point is, keeping with food, if you went to Gordon RAmsays restaurant and ordered a dish you would expect it to have been cooked with enough skill to be eaten as intended, and not covered in sauce. There ought to be enough going on in the shot, layers of taste, different flavours etc so milk is not going to enhance but bastardise it. If you feel you have to have milk in espresso, the point Reiss is making (and I agree) is do not drink SO but stick with blends. Yes, this is a free world and no doubt if you want to you will....but is adding milk to a top quality SO any worse than adding sugar?


OK, what's the difference between a blend and an SO outside of a blend being more than one type of bean.

Have you never had blends that aren't good in milk (you mentioned SOs earlier).

I assume you mean is adding milk any better than adding sugar? I don't routinely add either but similarly don't see an issue with it. I make my friend a coffee with milk, caramel syrup and caramel sauce on top - regardless of what beans I happen to have in. He seems to have no tastebuds whatsoever but always seems to enjoy that.

BTW in Gordon Ramsay's restaurant the Savoy Grill, you can order a steak and add bearnaise, peppercorn, marrowbone and shallot or horseradish sauces to it...


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

jlarkin said:


> It matters to me, not because it'll change what I'm doing but because it's interesting to hear somebody's reasoning rather than the end result.
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to share that.


Hear, hear! That's rather the point. I'm always interested to hear other people's reasoning about an opinion, perhaps more than the opinion itself. The thought process behind it informs my own thinking.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Rob666 said:


> Hear, hear! That's rather the point. I'm always interested to hear other people's reasoning about an opinion, perhaps more than the opinion itself. The thought process behind it informs my own thinking.


Perhaps milk in brewed is too

Cool it down for people . Really

Got coffee just tastes " really hot " filter opens up massively after 10-15

Mins


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jlarkin said:


> OK, what's the difference between a blend and an SO outside of a blend being more than one type of bean.
> 
> Have you never had blends that aren't good in milk (you mentioned SOs earlier).
> 
> ...


Are you determined to take everything I say the wrong way? I did not say you could not order a steak from Gordon Ramsay and have an accompanying sauce that was also cooked by his team and meant to accompany the steak. I suggested, that if you are willing to pay the price for example, a steak and trimmings cooked by him, would you put brown sauce on? I

The dish was designed for you to savour the cut of meat and skill taken in cooking it.

Most SO beans, bearing in mind that the actual quality of bean can vary tremendously from roaster to roaster, so by definition being SO is meaningless, is usually an expensive option. A lot of decent roasters will tell you with blends, best in milk, best as brewed etc. They have been roasted with this in mind. An SO bean has been crafted to bring the best out of the bean, and that should not include adding milk! Adding milk might make it more palatable for you, but will not enhance the shot one bit.

I take milk, I drink blends.....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jlarkin said:


> OK, what's the difference between a blend and an SO outside of a blend being more than one type of bean.
> 
> Have you never had blends that aren't good in milk (you mentioned SOs earlier).
> 
> ...


Are you determined to take everything I say the wrong way? I did not say you could not order a steak from Gordon Ramsay and have an accompanying sauce that was also cooked by his team and meant to accompany the steak. I suggested, that if you are willing to pay the price for example, a steak and trimmings cooked by him, would you put brown sauce on? I

The dish was designed for you to savour the cut of meat and skill taken in cooking it.

Most SO beans, bearing in mind that the actual quality of bean can vary tremendously from roaster to roaster, so by definition being SO is meaningless, is usually an expensive option. A lot of decent roasters will tell you with blends, best in milk, best as brewed etc. They have been roasted with this in mind. An SO bean has been crafted to bring the best out of the bean, and that should not include adding milk! Adding milk might make it more palatable for you, but will not enhance the shot one bit.

I take milk, I drink blends.....


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> The point is, keeping with food, if you went to Gordon RAmsays restaurant and ordered a dish you would expect it to have been cooked with enough skill to be eaten as intended, and not covered in sauce. There ought to be enough going on in the shot, layers of taste, different flavours etc so milk is not going to enhance but bastardise it. If you feel you have to have milk in espresso, the point Reiss is making (and I agree) is do not drink SO but stick with blends. Yes, this is a free world and no doubt if you want to you will....but is adding milk to a top quality SO any worse than adding sugar?


I went to Maize grill on Grosvenor square last year and my wife had a sauce with her steak and both sauce and steak were crap. I had to complain about my main which I hardly ever do. If this is indicative of Gordon Ramsey's restaurants I don't want to go to another. £165 for 2 courses even after I'd had the bill for my main halved.

The whisky thing is a little odd. You're supposed to add a splash of water to whisky to open it up, in fact if it's cask strength whisky it's distilled deliberately with the intension that you will dilute it to taste as most are around 55 % and don't taste good without water.

I think people who are into coffee and go the trouble of sourcing SO's should at least try a pour over but if you really don't like coffee without milk I don't suppose there's much point. Enjoy what you enjoy.


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## doolallysquiff (Jul 26, 2014)

I take it the next Londinium model will be shipped without a steam wand, then?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

doolallysquiff said:


> I take it the next Londinium model will be shipped without a steam wand, then?


then what are you going to make scrambled eggs with?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

doolallysquiff said:


> I take it the next Londinium model will be shipped without a steam wand, then?


I am sure if you ask nicely, they would do that for you but of course it is not compulsory to drink Londinium beans. The fact that he only roasts SO is immaterial. that is his choice. Once again I bring a topic to the table for discussion, and the opinion seems to be that I am being controversial and it ends up the world versus me. Just as well I have broad shoulders and could not give a monkeys


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

He's talking about speciality coffee, not blends.


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## doolallysquiff (Jul 26, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> then what are you going to make scrambled eggs with?


Eggs should only be boiled or poached. Why would you ruin free range eggs by beating or scrambling. Scramble a barn egg or make an omelette from a caged egg (I don't condone this).


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Proper scrambled eggs are the food of the gods! Unfortunately most are utter cr*p! Equating to instant coffee.

I don't think dfk is being especially controversial, just expressing an opinion, which we are free to disagree with. E.g. I like SOs with milk and I don't mind paying for them. YMMV.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Rob666 said:


> Proper scrambled eggs are the food of the gods! Unfortunately most are utter cr*p! Equating to instant coffee.


I've followed recipes by Gordon Ramsey, Heston Blumenthal and Jamie Oliver with differing results.


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

DoubleShot said:


> I've followed recipes by Gordon Ramsey, Heston Blumenthal and Jamie Oliver with differing results.


As usual it depends on what you like. For me, the secret is not to overcook. Take the pan off the heat while the eggs are still somewhat liquid and let the residual heat finish them off while still stirring. Others will regard this as revoltingly undercooked! Each to his own!


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Hmm.. When I bought some beans from Spring in York, they advised SO for brewed (as it brings the delicate flavours out) and blend for espro.

Most of the time I'll have an espro, then pull another for a milky drink to make it last longer, and to get a more rounded flavour (I'm getting back into milky drinks). I won't add milk to a pourover though, and never add sugar.

As for whisky, generally I'll drink neat, though sometimes I'll add a few drops of bottled water to 'tame the fire', as it does bring out the flavours.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

That is one of Heston's tips for the perfect boiled egg (using residual heat). Works a treat I tell ya!


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

What about Irish coffee then.......

Dunno the whole milk debate is funny.

I generally used to drink milkys but once I got into the swing of things and started to find my feet a bit I found I didn't want it. Probably due to finding coffees that were 'weird' or 'sweet' etc. For some reason then I got into my head that that I was now on some sort of coffee puritan quest and that milk actually got in the way of tasting what a bean was 'supposed' to taste like as it changed it. Not through reading stuff or looking at the debate on with or without. It just sort of made sense to me logically in my head that only adding water was as close as I could get to the 'actual' taste of the bean (let's not start the whole water, which, minerals etc thing here).

Right or wrong of which there isn't it's how I've ended up changing from the beginning of the year to now. Filter as in pour over has come into to play as a comparison to my espresso and all without milk.

I still however make one split shot from every bag I buy one side being a cortado the other a straight espresso once happily dialled. So still quite a strong milky drink but very rarely make another from the same bag. It is purely to see what I get and make notes in my head. So I know, curiosity and if I am looking or chatting to someone about the same bean who may refer to it with milk I am better able to discuss.

I made one tonight and really enjoyed it but for several reasons won't make another from this bag as good as it was.

I have totally lost the 'puritan' thing in my head now just prefer it that way but am always curious enough to try at least one with as though am not a puritan any longer I am still some grubby old knight in tarnished armour on some sort of holy coffee grail type quest but aren't we all!










NI!


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Poached eggs, try a Jamie Oliver method - put some cling film into a cup, smear with olive oil and crack an egg into it. Add a few herbs etc. then gather the edges and tied in a knot. Drop into a pan of simmering water until cooked. It's a bit of faff but it works. Also my chucks aren't bothered about how I cook their eggs as long as I feed them


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

I do always taste new bags as espresso. I just prefer the milky drinks. (And the latte art dismal though it often is!)


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

@Rhys Not generally a fan of poached eggs but that sounds delicious! I'll have to give it a try.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> Are you determined to take everything I say the wrong way? I did not say you could not order a steak from Gordon Ramsay and have an accompanying sauce that was also cooked by his team and meant to accompany the steak. I suggested, that if you are willing to pay the price for example, a steak and trimmings cooked by him, would you put brown sauce on? I
> 
> The dish was designed for you to savour the cut of meat and skill taken in cooking it.
> 
> ...


My apologies, I was partly being playful and partly genuinely (or honestly) misinterpreting what you said about sauces etc.

If I avoid any metaphors (or whatever they are) then I'm probably likely to stick on one train of thought - but I'll come back to them shortly. I'm sure SOs vary wildly between roasters, after all blends do as well.

I also think it's fair to say that coffee didn't come about (in terms of in the wild) so that people could drink it, although it's now cultivated for that purpose. To me it feels like something of a nonsense to say it shouldn't be sullied by milk. Similarly it doesn't really matter what is done with other things like tea or whatever because i think each should be open to enjoy what they enjoy, how they enjoy it.

Gordon Ramsey could come up with a recipe for steak with brown sauce and then people can try it and if they like it then carry on doing it. Similar holds for milk and coffee if you like the SO with milk, then drink it that way or if you try a blend and its even better then great have that? I think it's great to try the espresso neat or brew and have it black or whatever (in fact personally I rarely have a milk drink of any sort) I'm just arguing that their is nothing inherently wrong in having it like that.

I like the way you have a talent for finishing things that spark some conversation.


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

Throwing my two pence into the ring. I am sorry, but I have tried and tried to drink coffee black, but I just can't get on with it. Maybe it is something to do with drinking instant for so long (before I found the forum) with milk. To that end I have made the decision and I won't do something that goes against my own instincts and tastes just to tow the party line. They are my tastebuds at the end of the day. I switch between semi skimmed and soya milk in my drinks depending on my mood.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

I like a coffee in a lot of shapes and forms .and I also like a little bit of tomato ketchup with my steak , I also would have no conviction whatever in putting water with a single malt I would never add milk to brewed as experience has told me they never go together now a pinch of sugar and measure of Irish whisky and cream balanced on the top off the back of a spoon would probably go down quite nicely .

If it tastes good carry on , if you don't like the taste try something else . I put milk on my morning cereal Yum !


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jlarkin, sorry if I sounded all defensive........I think the point I was really trying to put across, was that it is hard to argue with the Londinium point of view, which I suppose is why Reiss choses not to blend. it might be a very wrist point of view and I can see the point he is making, but the hard and fast rule is never say never.

Over the years I have enjoyed a lot of SO beans, and a lot not so. I have had more success recently exploring the Coffee Compass blends. I did spend 16 months drinking nothing but Jampit of course.

I knew people would have their own opinions and unlike the blog, I would agree with the popular viewpoint which is if you enjoy what you make, then that is what counts. I think the bigger problem is that in the past I have bought beans from named roasters and to me, they have not been up to scratch...but thats another argument!


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## yardbent (Aug 8, 2015)

Rob666 said:


> .... For me, the secret is not to overcook. Take the pan off the heat while the eggs are still somewhat liquid and let the residual heat finish them off while still stirring. ...!


true

i was taught to brown the base to a still soft top surface

add anything to one half- i like grated cheese . fold in 2

serve on a hot plate

by the time you reach the table, the egg centre is done and the cheese has melted - perfect.!


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Sadly scrambled egg gives me heartburn, so that's out.

I have never drunk milk in coffee but then I only started drinking coffee two years ago. I enjoy the intensity of espresso and the way that brewed is less intense. I can't see why I would ever want to add milk to it. So, I'm with Reiss. I make flat whites for my wife - she can taste the difference between the SOs and blends that I make for her. I don't like the combined smell of the milk and coffee and the thought of drinking it is really unappealing; the sense I have is that I would gag or throw up. Oddly or not hot chocolate with milk once in a while is okay. I am fascinated by Glenn's account of the effects of different milks but it doesn't make me want to experiment.

What doesn't get much discussion but I might have missed it, is the fact that different roasters are obviously profiling their roast based on the water that they use in the roastery. I assume that means unless we drink the coffee at the roastery or use the same water, it's going to taste different with a different water. The bottled water thread and the experiments conducted by Spence and others reinforces this. I don't have the Maxwell book so don't know if this topic is cover along with the chemistry.

Unfortunately I was put off chemistry at school by two successive teachers who had an intuitive grasp of the subject but couldn't explain it properly if you didn't share that intuition and instead got cross if you didn't understand. I didn't like them and it put me off the subject.

As in some posts above, some years ago at a mega-malt tasting do in Scotland, we were told that a little water opens up the flavours and aromas (I'm sure someone has written something about the best water to use with what malt, and how much to add to what volume of malt).

Happily most of the time (there are boundaries to do with decent behaviour) the Forum encourages a wide range of views. It would be dull if we all thought the same and all asked each other the same questions and gave each other the same answers. Actually, the Forum would have ceased thriving a long time ago and Glenn and the rest of us would have put our energies into something else. This is the only Forum I have stayed with for the time that I have - because it holds my interest and attention.

There are a number of regularly active members and some less so active where I will always read a thread that they have started (especially the raffle ones) because I know that I'm going to get something rewarding (and I'm obviously not thinking of raffles at this point), and sometimes something challenging to think about, from reading it. It's why I started reading this thread and enjoyed every post of it.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Rob666 said:


> As usual it depends on what you like. For me, the secret is not to overcook. Take the pan off the heat while the eggs are still somewhat liquid and let the residual heat finish them off while still stirring. Others will regard this as revoltingly undercooked! Each to his own!


Hear, hear! Best scrambled egg I've ever made is on an inductive hob... so controllable. As you say, everyone else would find it disgustingly undercooked, but boy, it's Heaven - especially when served on a generous bed of smoked salmon. Try putting a little Angostura Bitters into the mixture - rather like a dash of Worcestershire sauce. Quite my favourite breakfast!

Tony.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> jlarkin, sorry if I sounded all defensive........I think the point I was really trying to put across, was that it is hard to argue with the Londinium point of view, which I suppose is why Reiss choses not to blend. it might be a very wrist point of view and I can see the point he is making, but the hard and fast rule is never say never.
> 
> Over the years I have enjoyed a lot of SO beans, and a lot not so. I have had more success recently exploring the Coffee Compass blends. I did spend 16 months drinking nothing but Jampit of course.
> 
> I knew people would have their own opinions and unlike the blog, I would agree with the popular viewpoint which is if you enjoy what you make, then that is what counts. I think the bigger problem is that in the past I have bought beans from named roasters and to me, they have not been up to scratch...but thats another argument!


No worries.

The differing viewpoints and experiences are what make life interesting .

I just saw a subtle spelling mistake in my comment that changes the meaning quite a bit.

"I like the way you have a talent for finishing things that spark some conversation."

But was supposed to be

"I like the way you have a talent for finding things that spark some conversation." More of a compliment than a criticism....


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Gotta love autocorrect!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I thought the first one was more appropriate.


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## doolallysquiff (Jul 26, 2014)

Correct me if I'm wrong and I've missed something, but appears the thread is mainly debating whether or not to put milk in SO's. The posts on Reiss's blog talk about specialty coffee, so I assume this could include blends. My point is, why would Reiss build a high quality machine with parts that he believes are superfluous to the very people he is selling the machine to?


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Gotta cater to the masses whether or not the owner thinks/prefers not adding milk to espresso based drinks I guess?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jlarkin said:


> "I like the way you have a talent for finishing things that spark some conversation."
> 
> But was supposed to be
> 
> "I like the way you have a talent for finding things that spark some conversation." More of a compliment than a criticism....


Now it makes sense! I do it all the thyme..(!)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

doolallysquiff said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong and I've missed something, but appears the thread is mainly debating whether or not to put milk in SO's. The posts on Reiss's blog talk about specialty coffee, so I assume this could include blends. My point is, why would Reiss build a high quality machine with parts that he believes are superfluous to the very people he is selling the machine to?


Common sense v economics v personal beliefs.

reins is talking as a speciality roaster I think. The fact his beans share the same name as his machine is a coincidence. Londinium do not do blends, or did not. I have no intention of buying any now so do not follow closely, but you have to accept, that what he may find a heinous crime, putting milk into a drink, be it SO or blended to us is normal......thats what makes the world so interesting!

When you reach the pearly Gates and ST Peter gets his ledger out and sends you south for adulterating SO beans, then you will know for sure!


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

It is always a case of horses for courses and coffee is no exception. We all have our own preferences and tastes. That's what makes the world go around. All you can do is take pointers from other people, but ultimately if it does or doesn't taste good to you then that's your prerogative. I have in the past read others reviews of certain coffees and bought it on the strength of the review. Some I have found great and some I haven't. That's is why I posted a week or so ago asking if roasters do small trial packs of coffee beans, so you can get some and try it first before going out and paying for a full bag to then find out you don't like it.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

do you think there is a connection between Londinium roasting, only roasting SO beans and the blog?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> do you think there is a connection between Londinium roasting, only roasting SO beans and the blog?


The blog isn't talking about single origin


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The blog is talking about speciality coffee. Reiss only roasts SO beans. draw your own conclusion


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## Colio07 (Mar 9, 2015)

I think there's a distinction between being able to judge the quality of beans and roast / roaster, and one's preferred way to drink coffee. Whilst it is true that you can still notice differences in bean and roast quality when drinking coffee with milk, it seems clear (to me) that one can more easily and accurately assess the quality of beans and roast when drinking coffee black (espresso or brewed) - because you're making the judgement on the coffee alone rather than on coffee plus milk (or anything else like sugar). It's just a basic tenet of scientific method. The obvious caveat to this is that your judgements are also influenced by the water you use... which is why I believe one should strive to use appropriate water (e.g. Spence's blend or MCD's recommendations), and to keep the water consistent so you're comparing apples-to-apples when comparing coffees.

Having said that, I believe that there's a difference between assessing the qualities of beans and roast and choosing which coffee beans / roast you prefer for the way you like to drink your coffee. And this gets to the points made above - namely, that one should be free to drink coffee the way they prefer, whether it's black / with milk / sugar / syrup / alcohol, etc. I have my own preferences, but I'm happy for others to make different choices.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

This reminds me of conversation on HB about baristas telling customers how to drink their coffee (ie. not to add milk / sugar).

I agree some coffee is better enjoyed without milk, but in the end people have different taste buds / palates, likes / dislikes, drinking preferences, gut conditions etc. Same goes for whiskey, steak etc. you buy it it's down to you how its consumed. Still better to have a nice well brewed SO with milk than a crappy badly brewed blend with milk, as long as its good quality coffee it will still be enjoyed in one form or another. Yes drowned in milk it wont allow you to taste all the super delicious elements it might hide, but whos to say whoever drinks it would detect anything special if it was black / straight up espresso? Remember for some people coffee is coffee, yes a great SO might taste more fruity, but also for some people even well brewed light SO might be super bright / sour and simply not their thing. Just like a rare, blood soaked stake isnt the 'be all' for some eaters.

T.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I think that this is mistakenly getting caught up in blends are for milk and single origins aren't . That just doesn't apply across the aboard . People / roasters blend to achieve a balance and or to bulk out stuff .or both .

It's your choice if you use a blend for milk or not .

Saying i only drinks blends or SO is just as closed off , as saying you can or can't put milk in it . Chill out , enjoy , always seems more about the pleasure from the argument and ego on here than the enjoyment or drink .


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Indeed, chill your tits and drink your coffee.

T.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dsc said:


> Indeed, chill your tits and drink your coffee.
> 
> T.


What is the ideal temp for my tits to be at though ?


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## Colio07 (Mar 9, 2015)

Whatever gives you the most pleasure, obviously!


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> What is the ideal temp for my tits to be at though ?


Similar to a cold JUG of milk, ha! Get it? Tits, milk, jug... I'll get my coat...

T.


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

It's a fact some of us have more taste buds than others ergo are more sensitive to sour, bitter etc and can distinguish flavours better. It could also be said that everything has its own flavour and to add to it would be to bastardise that flavour. For example does adding cream to a strawberry take away or make the strawberry flavour less intense?

Adding something that compliments a flavour though is different.

Now whether you should add something or not is simply a matter of an individual's decision and therefore is neither right or wrong. If my Neanderthal taste buds do not allow me to distinguish the hints of this or the underlying flavour of that in a bean when drinking it as an espresso then adding milk and still enjoying it cannot be wrong.

I do agree however to taste something at its most natural you should add nothing. So as far as SO beans are concerned add nowt and taste them au natural, add milk and taste them with an added flavour of dairy. You pays yer money you takes yer choice.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Pompeyexile said:


> I do agree however to taste something at its most natural you should add nothing. So as far as SO beans are concerned add nowt and taste them au natural


Wouldn't that be best achieved by cupping them?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Eating them. Off the tree. It's the only way to get the authentic coffee experience.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Apparently sous vide at 57*C for 20min brings flavours which cupping simply can't reproduce.

T.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Eating them. Off the tree. It's the only way to get the authentic coffee experience.


I chew on a coffee bean everyone time I first open a bag

Does that count


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Pompeyexile said:


> I do agree however to taste something at its most natural you should add nothing. So as far as SO beans are concerned add nowt and taste them au natural, add milk and taste them with an added flavour of dairy. You pays yer money you takes yer choice.


Coffee is a crop, occurs naturally then hybridised, bred & blended by man, the beverage is always man made, it doesn't occur naturally....anywhere. You make the drink coffee, so make it how you like it, dilute it with water or milk, but enjoy it primarily.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> I chew on a coffee bean everyone time I first open a bag
> 
> Does that count


Only if you dress up like you're on a trip to origin


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

There are some wonderful, eloquent arguments going on here. I am enjoying reading them all. Such a wide ranging opinion, but with no definitive answer either way. It is the individuals own personal taste that will ultimately win the day.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Only if you dress up like you're on a trip to origin


What to Cornwall ?

How I dress up to eat coffee is entirely between me and my in my mug subscription ....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

m4lcs67 said:


> There are some wonderful, eloquent arguments going on here. I am enjoying reading them all. Such a wide ranging opinion, but with no definitive answer either way. It is the individuals own personal taste that will ultimately win the day.


A lot comes down to how you brew and balance a cup.

Just because one bread takes 15 minutes at 200c with a certain amount of flour and water doesn't mean another bread or flour will taste as good at that . Different ingredients different recipe .

Same with coffee , change the coffee , be prepared to change they way you brew it and the recipe to get a good balance from it ...

Often a lot of " this is bad " - i don't like this - I hypothesis is down to user error or a lack of willing not to experiment a little .

Above is based on previous personal experience btw


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

When I say au natural I did mean ground and water added to get the coffee oils out not chewing on the buggers. Yes I will concede the roasting of the bean will also effect the flavour but correct me if I'm wrong you can't grind raw beans force water through them and expect to actually be able to extract the oils.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Pompeyexile said:


> When I say au natural I did mean ground and water added to get the coffee oils out not chewing on the buggers. Yes I will concede the roasting of the bean will also effect the flavour but correct me if I'm wrong you can't grind raw beans force water through them and expect to actually be able to extract the oils.


I don't know why one would want the oils specifically, I don't want any more than the minimum, they largely get in the way of the flavour.

But my point was more that coffee beverage (farming, processing, extracting with water) is a man made exercise. Presumably there are other solutes you can use to extract the solubles from roasted beans (there were folk using spirits in MyPressis to pull shots for example), we usually use water to extract the coffee but could use something else, then fill out the beverage with whatever nice tasting liquid that we fancied rather than water (water maybe from another district/country, or remineralised, but generally not the last rainfall).

Presiding over an inherently human induced chain of events then deciding that adding a natural product, like milk (rather than adding more water), is negatively affecting the beverage is, in itself, entirely illogical.

Coffee cherries & the hot brown drink have about as "natural" a relationship as does shark's liver and haemmorrhoid cream.  I just find it odd the things people regard as pure, traditional, au naturelle etc.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> I chew on a coffee bean everyone time I first open a bag
> 
> Does that count


You too? I've been doing this ever since I was given some chocolate covered roast beans many many years ago. I thought it was me that was just strange lol


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Rhys said:


> I thought it was me that was just strange


Oh, that you are! 

Just kidding lad!


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

What I took away from the blog is that when you buy single origin light roast speciality coffee you are paying a premium and in return get a more complex coffee. When you add milk you inevitably lose a lot (not all) of that complexity. You're paying a premium and then missing out on some of what you paid a premium for.

It's hard to disagree with this, but I do make milky drinks with these coffees myself sometimes because a well made capp often is just what I fancy, particularly in the morning.

If you enjoy what you make don't sweat it!


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Well you are missing out on some of that premium ... But then again when you add milk to a blend you are missing out on some of the complex flavour profiles in that as well ... But you can still taste the difference between a SO with milk and a blend with milk


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> but, would ou buy a single malt and add water, or even ice to it? Also to consider, is the fact that with lighter and lighter roasts knocking around, eventually you might have a situation where the coffee curdles the milk.....or is that fantasy!


Only just seen this... Yes, most Single Malts benefit from a small amount of water, some (cask strength) are totally overpowering without it, the flavour opens up, blooms, if you like...Ice is not for complex whisky, as you reduce the temperature the volatiles become less accessible.

Lighter more acidic, really doesn't suit milk for me, If it's a darker SO more likely to want a smaller quantity, cortado-ish possibly full fat on occasion,


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Can't the whole discussion be boiled down to one sentence?

"Milk - it's not for the purists"


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

CamV6 said:


> Can't the whole discussion be boiled down to one sentence?
> 
> "Milk - it's not for the purists"


It could be although what about the milk purists?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

What's a purist? It's usually used as slightly derogatory term in a straw man argument.

Milk drinks are traditional, a purist could easily be someone who likes their milk drinks made to an accepted traditional format, as much as it could apply to someone who never has milk (of which there are probably extremely few).


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Just saying.........spot the milky in the wicker (straw) man?

I am joking of course x


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Could a milk purist be a Puro-ist?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Good coffee in milk is better than bad coffee in milk.

You could argue that a purist would enjoy a 5oz SO single shot cappuccino and would detest a 12/16oz bucket drink with a Robusta blend.


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

Drink your coffee how you like. If you like something a certain way that's fine. Everybody has a slightly (or in some cases, extremely) different perception of taste so if I want some pepper on my dish at Gordon Ramsay's that's fine too. I don't like whiskey.


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

The best coffee is sourced & made the way you enjoy drinking it at any particular time.

This could vary on a daily basis.

One man's meat etc.......


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Nobody mention the s word. Syrup!


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

hotmetal said:


> Nobody mention the s word. Syrup!


Can't stand syrup personally but if you like it, why not?.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Indeed. Not for me but I know a few people who love hazelnut latte. It's them that's drinking it so they can have what they like (but not at mine cos I don't buy it!)


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Rob666 said:


> I do always taste new bags as espresso. I just prefer the milky drinks. (And the latte art dismal though it often is!)


This is me exactly. I always try a small proportion of a bag as espresso, firstly to get a feel for what the coffee tastes like straight, and secondly because sometimes I just fancy a nice gloopy shot. But it's fair to say that in the mornings when I do most of my coffee drinking, I want cappuccino.

Having had various SO and blends, I have come to the conclusion that as a broad generalisation blends hold up better in milk than SO but not always, and realistically whatever I happen to have dialled in at the time will be made into either a cappuccino or an espresso.

I never have brown or tomato sauce on anything as I find their taste overpowers anything. Butter and bacon between bread is heaven on earth. Does that make me a bacon snob? !


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

hotmetal said:


> This is me exactly. I always try a small proportion of a bag as espresso, firstly to get a feel for what the coffee tastes like straight


If you haven't already, you should really try cupping all of your beans to get a true taste of it's notes.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

True. Although I don't have a hand grinder so I would waste a bag dialling between cupping and espresso grind sizes if I were to cup each bag!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Cupping is good way to compare different coffees, whilst keeping other factors as close as possible, but I'm not sure I'd say it is any "truer" an insight into a coffee's flavour, cupping protocols are quite varied. To get the broader spectrum of what a particular coffee has to offer maybe do more than one cup at differing ratios & steep times. E.g. one cup at 67g/l for 4 min, break, taste after 8-10 min, another at 52.5g/l, covered, no break, taste at 20min (about as far as it will extract in a cupping/declining temp immersion). This will show more of a range of what you might expect.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

hotmetal said:


> True. Although I don't have a hand grinder so I would waste a bag dialling between cupping and espresso grind sizes if I were to cup each bag!


You're going to dial in a new coffee anyway, so cup at the coarser end of your espresso range, maybe leave a little longer after the break to let fines settle.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Is Cupping probably where roasters start with descriptors tho ?


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Is Cupping probably where roasters start with descriptors tho ?


I often read "on the cupping table this bean really stood out"


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Is Cupping probably where roasters start with descriptors tho ?


Yes, but, to me it depends on the aim of the session. Whether you are selecting coffees from a range (via a common protocol, just the coffee being the variable), to roast (& nearly everyone has their own take on a protocol), or in this case, you have a bag of one coffee that you'd rather not throw away & want to see what it is capable of at different points. The coffee has been selected by the roaster, you have chosen it & bought it to brew (your selection process is pretty much over when you click "add to basket" & enjoy it. Does it taste good at a low side of normal extraction, or does it want pushing further within the bounds of a tasty cup?

Some flavours will be more/less prominent at different points, the bolder ones will be common over a tasty range, whichever ones you want to highlight (acidity, or maybe sweetness) is up to you, but to suggest certain attributes in one good cup are "truer" than other attributes in a different, but still good cup, is a bit hard line.

This way you may get a couple of reference points and an idea of how to steer to preference.


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