# Best non dual boiler.



## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Ok I'm finally wanting to upgrade from my gaggia classic.

Due to recent woes with it I'm now wanting to try something else.

Not really bothered about dual boiler as I don't drink milk based drinks ,only espresso.

Not wanting to plumb anything in or go down the lever route really,but may be swayed if that may work for me.

Budget is pretty flexible and not really got a massive amount of space but again can accommodate if need be.

Advice appreciated.

Paul


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

So not a single boiler but not a dual Boiler or a lever

Leaves you a HX ...

Making great espresso is about getting great temp stability

Hx machines ( if your not using an Eric's thermometer ) require you to learn the water dance to get to the Same temp each time ..

I know you don't do milk drinks but , one of the advantage of a dual boiler is that you alter the temp for different beans and a good one is rock steady temp wise , without flushing to hit stable points . Alot of db machines will allow you to turn of the steam boiler for example ....

None of this are deal breakers for a HX or a DB its just worth knowing the pros and cons of each .

Otherwise For espresso only I would actually advise a lever but given that you haven't indicated a price range or a space range it's a bit hard to discern what you could accommodate .


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## TheEspressoNistic (Nov 11, 2014)

Any E61 HX will do nicely... own an e61 and you'll never look back...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Plus to get the best from any machine ( e61 / db/ lever ) you'll need a good grinder . What would you be pairing any potential machine with Paul


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

TheEspressoNistic said:


> Any E61 HX will do nicely... own an e61 and you'll never look back...


Thanks for that , really helpful , there only like? how many e61 machines ...

Quality pro advise Ray

Bit like saying I need a new car ..

" get one that runs on petrol , you'll never look back "


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## TheEspressoNistic (Nov 11, 2014)

Thanks mrboots2u


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## Firochromis (Oct 26, 2014)

While reading for my La Spaz Vivaldi, a very good review written by Dan Kehn was making comparisons for single boiler/hx/dual boiler. He obviously choose Vivaldi for dual boiler; and Isomac Amica for single boiler, Isomac Rituale for HX. I strongly advise you to read that article. I'm at Tapatalk now, can't provide you a link but kaywords like "buyer's guide La Spaziale S1, Dan Kehn" will make it. As a result, he seems to like Amica more than Rituale, especially for non-milk drinks.

Good luck with your choice.


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Im currently running an F5 that i purchased from Dave(coffeechap) about a year or so ago maybe more.

Again although im sure its ok may fancy a new grinder also.

Im looking long term when i change minimum 2 years (hopefully) for both machines.

Budget is as ive mentioned quite flexible and im budgeting for over a £1000 if that helps.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

And the budget is for new and or second hand ?


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Whatever works out better .

Pros and cons i suppose i would get a better set up 2nd hand .

But new maybe a decent guarantee.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

stevogums said:


> Whatever works out better .
> 
> Pros and cons i suppose i would get a better set up 2nd hand .
> 
> But new maybe a decent guarantee.


I understand the guarantee security although from my experience of buying second hand through the forum, kit has been well looked after, glitches generally ironed or modded out, and you frequently get the offer of initial help with working whatever machine it is plus, of course, continuing support through the forum. Incidentally, since, like you, I only drink espresso, I rapidly became a lever convert.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok £1350 for example would have got you an l1 recently second hand .

That makes very very good espresso

£800 ish would get you a second hand brewtus , rocky steady temp, allows you to change the temp for different beans pidded , e61 with pre infusion , you can turn of the steam boiler ...

HX wise - new Fracino machine , under £1000. I've seen some of the rocket HX got for £8-900 , they don't seem to come up too often .

Getting better and more consistent espresso ( than a Gaggia ) means getting a machine with better temp stability and some form of pre infusion ( e61 , lever etc )


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## Firochromis (Oct 26, 2014)

Firochromis said:


> While reading for my La Spaz Vivaldi, a very good review written by Dan Kehn was making comparisons for single boiler/hx/dual boiler. He obviously choose Vivaldi for dual boiler; and Isomac Amica for single boiler, Isomac Rituale for HX. I strongly advise you to read that article. I'm at Tapatalk now, can't provide you a link but kaywords like "buyer's guide La Spaziale S1, Dan Kehn" will make it. As a result, he seems to like Amica more than Rituale, especially for non-milk drinks.
> 
> Good luck with your choice.


My three months' old cried so I ended the message. I was saying that instead of focusing hx/db etc. better to focus on the machine itself. It may be a specific single boiler would be a better choice for you.

Regards


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Must admit really like the look of the L1 but maybe a bit of overkill for me taking such a big leap?

Need to look at some you tube or articles on Lever machines think they may be my answer..


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

there is a ton of stuff on here and the londinium forum

ask away


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Think I will read up first to save me asking some really silly questions that I already am thinking of?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

stevogums said:


> Think I will read up first to save me asking some really silly questions that I already am thinking of?


There are no silly questions .....

( unless your asking if you can replace the lever with a balloon )


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Really really liking the L1.

Watched and read a lot of stuff today and can't really find any negatives.

Is admittedly a bit pricey ,however I'm a firm believer in you get what you pay for.

Any articles that are a must read then let me know.

Thanks Paul


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

http://londiniumespresso.com/forum/categories/list


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?8251-LONDINIUM-I-Spring-Lever-Espresso-Machine-first-look-review&highlight=Londinium+Glenn


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Really ask away there are a ton of happy users on here


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Think im going for an L1 .

May bite the bullet and pair it up with a new grinder also..possibly a Eureka Zenith 65E.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Good for you - LI is an awesome beast.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I've just pulled the trigger on the zenith. Although it's not as pretty as an SJ or Ceado the grind quality is said to be as good as a super jolly but it is the ease of use and maintenance that I like. So simple to set up dose and purge, easy to get to burrs for cleaning and doing so doesn't affect grind settings. Also being OD the absence of a doser means it doesn't creep around the worktop when 'thwacking' and there's no poking around in the exit chute or modding for cleaner sweeps. I still think the SJ looks nicer but it's the faff of the doser that made me change from my Mini. A Ceado E37s would be even better but it costs double the money!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

stevogums said:


> Think im going for an L1 .
> 
> May bite the bullet and pair it up with a new grinder also..possibly a Eureka Zenith 65E.


You won't be disappointed with an l1

Are you wanting to single dose or will you be the new grinder with some beans in the hooper . ( just checking , you have probably done some great research already )

If you wanna single dose , then it's money wasted buying an " on demand " grinder like a zenith ( IMHO )


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Must admit never really done the beans in the hopper.

Im more single dose..

But reading what hotmetal has said,seems to fit my needs does the 65E.

But as ive said im more than open to suggestions..









Also what i am also going to do when/if i go for the L1 is set up with some better equipment .

eg better tamper, better baskets (VST i presume) any other items that may help..

Really want to do this upgrade for the long term so i want to get it right,as its going to cost a few bob.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

stevogums said:


> Must admit never really done the beans in the hopper.
> 
> Im more single dose..


Other will chip and my opinion only

As I've said you can single dose it , you can put a single dose it but why would you .

some of the price is based on the mech to make it an on demand grinder

Some beans in the hopper , you rock up , pull a timed dose and off you go .

If you are not going to use this function I wonder why spend the money on one. If your single dosing you won't be using the timed fiction

100-200 grams of beans in a hoper aren't going to stale over the course of a couple of days ...

I get people don't like using Dosers so go for an on demand grinder , but then not Using the one demand function seems fool hardy to me ....

Yes I've used a mythos , a k30 , an on demand san remo all with some beans in them .....

My opinion only , better value in something like a modded mazzer from CC or similar


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Need to keep more beans in the hopper then,did worry me the beans going stale thus ive always kept them sealed and opened on demand.

My daily intake is "Minimum" of 4 doubles a day.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

4 doubles 80 grams a day plus ( added some for retention )

I single dose but I have a grinder that does that

I use a single bag but will. use if for espresso and brew over the week , I don't wanna dump it all in a hopper

160 g of beans in a hopper topped up over two days a lot of people won't notice if fresh or not . Some will ....preference and opinion .

Preference and opinion only

If you wanna single dose , I'd buy a grinder better suited to doing it personally ...

I'm sure other zenith owners will single dose , and that's fine , it's not wrong , it's just your not making the most of the mech in the grinder you paid for ....


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

So maybe overkill on the grinder?

Just trying to futureproof myself a little.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

4 doubles minimum I'd have no probs putting in 250 g based on that and topping up every other day


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

stevogums said:


> So maybe overkill on the grinder?
> 
> Just trying to futureproof myself a little.


Nope not overkill

You NEED a good grinder with an L1

Don't skimp on the grinder

In my opinion there is no such thing as overkill

I would say that I'm a coffee mentalist , the voices in my head make me buy things









I'd honestly be looking at something with bigger burrs than a zenith

On demand is fine , doser is fine , use em accordingly is what I'm saying ..

Ask opinion , drop CC a pm asking what he can offer you re reconditioned .

He has used most grinder spaired with a l1 he can give you more opinion .

Zenith isn't overkill

250g in the small hopper for me would be fine base on your usage

As I said , I'm not " right " it's an opinion .....


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Been in touch with CC and i am going to have a good chat today with him, time willing when you've got a 20month old daughter who wants to play and help with coffee making procedures.









Will take my time before pushing the order button on all items and listen to top quality advice from all on here.Getting a bit excited now though.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If your pushed for time in that daily routine an on demand would suit.


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Ok im back to deliberating.

On second thoughts i think the L1 is too much of a step up in both price and technique.

So im back to thinking about a upgrade from the classic.

I have once again been reading some reviews and thread and was looking at few options..

Sage dual ,however with some of the problems they seem to be showing i'm not too sure on that.

Expobar Leva Dual boiler(this has been recommended to me) looks to have a lot of decent features and would be a significant upgrade from the classic.

Also considering new grinder still possibly the Zentih , but may have the offer of a better grinder than that.

Would love to buy an L1 but i think i may be better getting some more experience with a better machine that i can watch temps and alter things visibly.

Any other recommendations welcomed.

Cheers Paul.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

My advise

Buy what you really want now be that pump or lever , within whatever price you feel comfortable with ...

If you don't want to spend the money on an l1 thats entirely understandable, it's a lot of money ...

But You won't learn how to use a lever by using a pidded pump machine

You'll learn how to use a pidded pump machine , not that that is bad , it's just not a steppingstone to getting lever .....this isn't world of Warcraft .......

I'm not a believer in there needing to be a "right of passage" to get to a great manchine.

Either ( l1 or brewtus or almost any good dual boiler ) will make really great espresso ( although with different taste profile ) if paired with great grinder , good beans , a bit of skill and a little patience .

The expobar is generally regarded as a great value e61 db machine

If you can plumb it and go rotary version even better .

Cheers martin


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

From my point of view on all this is I'm at a point were my coffee is pretty hit and miss whilst trying to get a decent espresso shot from my classic and grinder(f5)combo.

Im not sure what the problem is but I've gone through so many combos of bean,time,weight,baskets and other suggestions and it's still hit and miss if not poor and mostly bitter.

I'm a pretty thorough person and am prepared to follow advice and suggestions but I just want some decent espresso.

Thus my decision to upgrade and in my hope for better and more consistent espresso.

i would really like to invest in an L1 due my preference for espresso ,however it can't help wondering what a decent shot from a better grinder/machine combo would be,as well as the ability to make use of a better machine.

Need to do this sooner rather than later .

Were would be best to source a exobar ? Bella barista perhaps?


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Sounds like the best bet would be road trip to Bella Barista and go and try all the machines (unless anyone can offer up a similar establishment closer to Stevogums). They are really helpful, all of them at Bella and there are levers (not L1 though) as well as HX / dual boilers (even a Sage which I believe you mentioned earlier) as well as the Expobars, just concious bit of a drive from Liverpool to Wellingborough.

Hope of help and really do feel if you still in two minds as to which way to leap, a "hands on" may be beneficial. Give them a call first though, you can just pitch up, but helps if they know you coming.

John


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Coffee chap any l1 owners near liverpool ?


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## TonyW (Jul 17, 2012)

I am in Chesterfield with an L1, if you want to pull a few shots. Wrong side of the Pennines but not a million miles away. Happy to help if I can.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I suppose it's going to come down to a number of things. I agree with Boots that there's no reason to go via HX or whatever. The Classic and basic grinder combo is tricky to get repeatable results with, which may be part of the trouble. They have their place: it introduces you meaningfully to the business of manual espresso making so you can learn some basics and also decide if you enjoy the process and results. Some might say it's all they will ever need: cash saved. Some will realise they love the ritual but find the hit & miss nature of affordable single boilers frustrating. Some may decide they want to go lever. And some will decide that they are happy with pump, but want the repeatability and convenience, steam power and maybe looks of a nice DB machine. If someone told me last year that I would soon own coffee kit that retails at well over £2k I'd have laughed: my car only cost £1.5k! I would never have jumped right in without going via the Classic/ MC2 route. But now I know this is for me, I decided no need to fanny around, I'd seen pics of other people's setups on here and realised that what I really dreamed of was something like a Rocket and a grinder that could do it justice. At this point I was fortunate to meet up with Dave C who was going to sort me out worth some beans because I'd failed to get my ordering right. After spending some considerable time giving me tips etc I discovered that he had the very machine I lusted after sat idle following a review. Ditto with the grinder. I therefore jumped straight in having realised what I wanted, and do not regret making a big leap. Upgradeitis and the potential losses have been put to bed. It is possible I might get curious about levers one day but basically what I've got now (R58 and Zenith) really is all I'll ever need I think. The results are much better and more consistent. The only 'downside' is that I need to learn how to look after the machine and descale/maintain the group, which is considerably more involved than a solenoid operated single boiler. Fortunately there is a lot of info on YouTube, on this forum and on the Coffee time wiki. I have also got a bunch of notes I made during my conversation with Dave.

Long and short of what I'm saying is decide what floats your boat, save up if necessary, understand the extra investment in learning to maintain a posh machine will involve, and get what you really want now you know you're up for it.

To some extent it may depend on what's available to you, but I'm delighted with the Rocket/Zenith combo. Both well constructed good performing bits of kit that use quality components and deliver in the cup. Now all I have to do is master steaming the milk! I feel a bit like a child with his dad's gun at the moment but this will pass once I really get the hang of the extra performance.

Happy shopping!


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

TonyW said:


> I am in Chesterfield with an L1, if you want to pull a few shots. Wrong side of the Pennines but not a million miles away. Happy to help if I can.


Much appreciated Tony.

Been to Chesterfield before and it didn't seem too bad a drive or took too long.

Will let you know

Paul

Think also would love a trip to Bella Barista to get some hands on.

Any other decent emporiums in the NW ?


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