# Coffee Heresy Or Elephant In The Room?



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Something has been niggling me for several days, so thought I would share.

Guess the aim of every coffee nut on this forum is to try and approach the standard of coffee offered by the very best 3rd wave coffee shops which, it has been argued, will always be superior due to factors such as fancy water filtration systems, high end kit, superior barista skill and knowledge etc, but a recent experience has left me questioning this and wondering if we can actually often do better at home.

Recently visited a much respected 3rd wave establishment several times over three day period. Drank flat whites, espressos and pour over with different beans but came away distinctly underwhelmed, surprised and generally disappointed. Place in question, which has top end kit, was using beans I had at home so was well used to. First flat white served up had an unpleasant bitterness to it so I took it up with the barrista. He didn't offer to remake the flat white. He said they were having problems with the roasters. I was so taken aback, I didn't bother sharing my home experience with the same beans which, incidentally, weren't at all bitter either as an espresso or as flat white. Should have asked, if they were having problems with a well respected roastery, why were they serving said beans to customers?


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

I reckon the aim of every coffee nut is to exceed rather than approach the standard of coffee achievable in a coffee shop.

Regardless of kit/experience etc it is really unlikely that any coffee shop is prepared to spend the same amount of time and attention to detail as a coffee enthusiast at home - if they did they wouldn't be able to serve many customers. Therefore, all there expertise etc is compromised by the need to be as quick as possible. Some can achieve this and some can't.

I've had some truly awful coffee from highly recommended coffee shops. If I had been at home they would have gone down the sink and I would have tried again.

Blaming the roaster seems a bit lame though.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

You missed your chance Patrick. I would have made him squirm. The truth is, most places strive allegedly, to serve the best they can. The truth is, they serve any old bollocks and rely upon the great general public not to know the difference


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> You missed your chance Patrick. I would have made him squirm. The truth is, most places strive allegedly, to serve the best they can. The truth is, they serve any old bollocks and rely upon the great general public not to know the difference


This wasn't any run of the mill third wave place, David. Place in question is right up there at the top so to get distinctly poor or average coffee really surprised me.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Are ou down south at the Mo Patrick


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

I don't think I'm any great shakes behind the machine but I find that with most of the 3rd wave shops in Manchester, they only beat me on latte art. I honestly think 8 times out of 10 that I make better espresso and pour over. There are two notable exceptions.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> This wasn't any run of the mill third wave place, David. Place in question is right up there at the top so to get distinctly poor or average coffee really surprised me.


The bigger the establishment, the more they would dislike you or me telling them they are cheating the public and should know better. Give me their name and I will ring them and ask if they have sorted their dodgy beans out before I invest in one of their overpriced coffees!


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Out of interest whilst you were there how often did you see them, redialling in the grinder ?? And tasting what they were serving ?


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

This hobby is a blessing and a curse! The places where I can go and enjoy my coffee more than I would at home are diminishing.

And I am not even very good!


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

h1udd said:


> Out of interest whilst you were there how often did you see them, redialling in the grinder ?? And tasting what they were serving ?


How often do you see a timed on demand grinder being used without a timer? I have seen a barista today just eyeballing with a manual override. Seemed a little bit weird and haven't seen it being done in any other 3rd wave coffee shop.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

At most of the places when I ask about the beans I'm lucky if the barista knows anything other than the roaster. The composition of the blend or the SO taste notes are hen's teeth. Standards seem to be slipping. But this may be a case of "back in my day."


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

PPapa said:


> Seemed a little bit weird and haven't seen it being done in any other 3rd wave coffee shop.


only been to 2 3rd wave/artisan coffee shops. Both were weighing before and after and timing each shot served .... Both were tasting there shots and redialling during service as well when the hopper was refilled.

thats what I would expect from 3rd wave


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Are ou down south at the Mo Patrick


No - but will be in London later this week.


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## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

There is another reason home baristas might well prefer their own coffee over that served in even the best shops. They make what they choose to make, we make what we choose to make. I have a much wider selection of beans available to me (either purchased roasted or in green beans) than any shop offers, and I prepare my coffee in the proportions and using the techniques I favour. I doubt my coffee is "objectively" better than what's available in the best shops, but almost always it suits my personal taste better than theirs.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

h1udd said:


> Out of interest whilst you were there how often did you see them, redialling in the grinder ?? And tasting what they were serving ?


Grinders were Clima Pros which aren't supposed to drift during daily service.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

New place in Stockport. All the gear. VA badged Mythos and VA three group. Which beans? "Umm. Some place called Art & Graft" Do you mean Heart &Graft? Oh yeah. Had a flat white. No hiding it in milk. Over extracted would be kind. Great cakes though. Will take my own in Keepcup next time


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Something has been niggling me for several days, so thought I would share.
> 
> Guess the aim of every coffee nut on this forum is to try and approach the standard of coffee offered by the very best 3rd wave coffee shops which, it has been argued, will always be superior due to factors such as fancy water filtration systems, high end kit, superior barista skill and knowledge etc, but a recent experience has left me questioning this and wondering if we can actually often do better at home.


Read all the comments with interest....I think we can do better at home, if we try. I know when making a coffee at home that:

1. My machine is clean

2. My grinder is clean

3 My water quality is controlled

4. My single dose has no old stale coffee in it

5. My beans are fresh and have been treated well in storage

6. my dose is right, the pour looked right, the time was right...or it goes down the sink

As I know these things, I know that many factors affecting taste are controlled....in a shop, I don't know this....what I do know is I am going to have to drink it, not the Barista.

Some years ago I was at an event, there were trained expert baristas and competition winners serving the coffees to people who didn't really know jack about what they were drinking. The coffee flowed, the people drank. I went for my spro, saw the gusher and was handed the cup by the "expert barista"....I didn't move, I just looked at him, perhaps raising an eybrow....after 10s in which neither of us spoke, he took the spro back, poured it down the sink, dialled in the grinder, tasted the spro at his second attempt....then pulled me another shot. Passed it to me and watched with a smile as I drank it.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I was really underwhelmed by all the espresso's I had on my recent trip to London. I usually criticise my home espresso and think that the coffee shop does it better and in my early days of coffee making that was true but not so sure any more (there are exceptions of course). I do think standards are slipping a bit in shops, and that's often reflected in various posts on here.

I agree with @mathof in a way but then again we're using the same beans, same ratios, striving to use the best water we can etc so we shouldn't be that far out.


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## Grahamg (Oct 24, 2013)

I've taken to trying different brew methods and origins to my home choices if I don't think my usual drinks will be to my taste. Have to say though, I've not been to many places other than the usual suspects in Bristol where it's always top-notch prep and I know it'll just be a question of whether the bean/roast does it for me.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I put a fair amount of time and attention into my at-home coffee, but a few will turn out to be average at best and I rarely bother to re-make them, I wont sink something so long as it's 'acceptable'. I don't change my method, my grind, or anything else but the flavor varies.

I remember going into Espressini a couple of years back and the first coffee they served me was about as good as I have ever had, but since that point its always just been 'good'. There was a lot of discussion about the 'god shot' on here a whole back, and I wonder if the difference between 'good' and 'god' is the time we are able to pay each shot at home.

We also taste our own coffee every time, something the Barista does much less. I used to work in bars and part of cocktail service was to dip a fresh straw, cover the top to create a vacuum and then taste the drink... every one. I have mused to myself that it would be an interesting thing to have a Barista do with each shot, take a tiny amount out with a small thin straw and make sure it was right.


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## Brewster (Jun 9, 2015)

Dylan said:


> We also taste our own coffee every time, something the Barista does much less. I used to work in bars and part of cocktail service was to dip a fresh straw, cover the top to create a vacuum and then taste the drink... every one. I have mused to myself that it would be an interesting thing to have a Barista do with each shot, take a tiny amount out with a small thin straw and make sure it was right.


I've wondered about this - I too used to be a cocktail waiter (briefly), and was taught to taste everything in this manner. I guess the difference with a cocktail is you would add something to the drink if it tastes unbalanced, but the feedback on an espresso would tell you whether it was acceptable or not...


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

I can't remember where (Japan or Germany maybe?) that baristas in most cafes actually taste the coffee before serving. I think I've read that on /r/coffee, 2 first shots went straight into sink and the third one was served.

On one occasion, I was asked at least two times if the coffee (made in Aeropress) was good. I thought it was a little bit on a bitter side, but I kept it quite - it wasn't bad at all. When's the point when you would come back to the counter and tell that the coffee was not up to the expectation?


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## matisse (Jul 21, 2010)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Grinders were Clima Pros which aren't supposed to drift during daily service.


Believe me,they drift. Oh and regular dialling in.and tasting is.no guarantee of quality.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

With hand brews I've often seen the barista put a small bit in a separate cup to taste it. Makes sense really as they're prone to variation. than a properly dialled espresso.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

aaronb said:


> With hand brews I've often seen the barista put a small bit in a separate cup to taste it. Makes sense really as they're prone to variation. than a properly dialled espresso.


I can't really comment on brewed, but espresso is certainly prone to a fair bit of variation as well.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

With top end espresso machines, there is less room for barista error thanks to volumetrics and/or gravimetrics. So, in theory, shots should be more consistent quality-wise. Pour over is much more likely to expose poor barista skills. Rarely had a decent pour over from most of the places I've tried.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

I've had the pleasure of meeting you Patrick , you probably have as much if not more experience and knowledge of coffee than most coffee shop establishments .

I would expect your coffee at home is probably at the top of its game and as such when you taste something a little less discerning it is probably more excentuated by your acquired taste.

The way coffee beans are stored have a major impact.

The difference between a commercial environment and a home environment is massive , I would imagine being able, having time , being self critical and analytic in shop to be very difficult .


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

aaronb said:


> With hand brews I've often seen the barista put a small bit in a separate cup to taste it. Makes sense really as they're prone to variation. than a properly dialled espresso.


Say you make a Chemex and taste it. It's 75-80% there. Good, but could be better. Do you serve it? Or have the customer wait another five mins while you do another one and hope it's an improvement?


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

My partner posted something the other day about her condition 'The awkward moment as a thyroid patient, you realise you're the smartest person in the room, and you're in the doctors office'

Well, I've had the feeling about coffee before. Just lately I've had, what I feel, are mediocre flat whites. I had a Kalita wave from The Attic a month or so ago, just to compare it to my V60s and I thought it was of similar quality. They have an EK43 for pourovers, I have my Major. Now I'm using a 'cheap by comparison' Isomac grinder, I'm getting very pleasant results. Might be having a hopper full of beans and being a conical? No idea, but am enjoying it a lot. I'm now expecting any coffee shop to live up to my high expectations that they must be able to produce a cup to a significantly higher standard, which will probably fail as a result.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Chemex should be pretty consistent. Providing you've dialled everything in with a refractometer, you should be able to hit the same EY give or take 0.5% either way.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Getting staff who care enough would be a big issue for me. If their heart isn't in it, why would they remake a drink if it's only there or thereabouts?


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> Say you make a Chemex and taste it. It's 75-80% there. Good, but could be better. Do you serve it? Or have the customer wait another five mins while you do another one and hope it's an improvement?


I imagine a thought train in barista's head: "The first brew is 80%... I will try again, I know I can do better... Damn, the second one is shite, the queue is too long to make a third try... I'll just serve the first one instead, that will do"


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> With top end espresso machines, there is less room for barista error thanks to volumetrics and/or gravimetrics. So, in theory, shots should be more consistent quality-wise. Pour over is much more likely to expose poor barista skills. Rarely had a decent pour over from most of the places I've tried.


There is a lot to be said for batch brew in a production environment


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

What defines, or should define, 3rd wave coffee, is that it is better than anything offered by the likes of Starbucks et al. If high 3rd end places like the one I visited are prepared to offer so, so or even sub standard coffee, what's the point of 3rd wave?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> There is a lot to be said for batch brew in a production environment


Agree with that, Gary.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> What defines, or should define, 3rd wave coffee, is that it is better than anything offered by the likes of Starbucks et al. If high 3rd end places like the one I visited are prepared to offer so, so or even sub standard coffee, what's the point of 3rd wave?


Was it really that bad? Good coffee made a bit badly should still be miles ahead of Starbucks


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Cafes will make bad drinks form time to time , some more than others, some learn from it some don't

We make drinks that we like and only we drink , its a luxury , cafe's have to make for their market/customers.....

the term third wave make me cringe a little to be honest .


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

The flat white was. I had been really looking forward to it after a long drive. The barrista's attitude was something else. I should have kicked off but I was with friends.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

3rd wave was coined to define difference which implicitly includes commitment to quality at all levels and something coffee shops are happy to trade off inasmuch as asking premium prices for the drinks they serve. So if they want to be seen as 3rd wave or whatever term reflects high end quality - their coffee should be consistently high quality.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> There is a lot to be said for batch brew in a production environment





The Systemic Kid said:


> Agree with that, Gary.


Me too.

My usual shop does batch brew and consistency is very good. It's better than a lot of hand brews I have had.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Say you make a Chemex and taste it. It's 75-80% there. Good, but could be better. Do you serve it? Or have the customer wait another five mins while you do another one and hope it's an improvement?


Tough one. If you go through the effort of tasting it then serving it when you know it isn't right then that really shouldn't happen. I appreciate cafes are very busy though, and hand brew is a slow laborious process to do right.

I've personally been served hand brews that have been tasted by the barista and I haven't really enjoyed too.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> 3rd wave was coined to define difference which implicitly includes commitment to quality at all levels and something coffee shops are happy to trade off inasmuch as asking premium prices for the drinks they serve. So if they want to be seen as 3rd wave or whatever term reflects high end quality - their coffee should be consistently high quality.


Makes it sound like The Egon Ronay guide .... I m not suer ive been to a cafe that calls itself " third wave "


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I score all my drinks on the 9 point quatermasters scale...I freely admit the possibility of bias towards my brews, but I'd only be disappointed with a cup that was either "like a little", or "neither like or dislike" or less . I wouldn't expect every cup to be stellar...I wouldn't take anyone to task unless it was bad - e.g. there was an identifiable malfunction, even then I often order filter as a speculative punt in a couple of places where I expect it to be bad, in the optimistic hope I'll be pleasantly surprised...it has happened but not often & I have a back up drink & know what I'm getting into.

Speciality coffee is about terroir, traceability & transparency in the cup, if these things don't make it into the cup, the beans/farm/origin/process might all be great, but that cup isn't speciality.

We also have to factor in personal preference, how an individual wants to present that cup...what I think might be delicious, sweet & balanced might be someone else's over-extracted. To me it's a bit like playing music, I learned to enjoy other's playing a lot more when I decided to listen to what they were doing, rather than expecting them to play what I would want to play & how...then being disappointed. Realistic expectation is a factor.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Makes it sound like The Egon Ronay guide .... I m not suer ive been to a cafe that calls itself " third wave "


Really? So they don't see themselves as any different than Starbucks et al? They might not use the term, 3rd wave, but the inference is implicit.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Makes it sound like The Egon Ronay guide .... I m not suer ive been to a cafe that calls itself " third wave "


Hipster barista, Metronomy on the wireless...third wave

Instead of AA rosettes the guide shows beanie hats


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> Hipster barista, Metronomy on the wireless...third wave


Even got Maxwell on the keys:


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Really? So they don't see themselves as any different than Starbucks et al? They might not use the term, 3rd wave, but the inference is implicit.


I think they would see themselves as independent or perhaps 'speciality'. 3rd wave is now a 14 year old term, and primarily refers to America in my experience, I'm not sure anywhere that thought they were on top of their game in the UK would describe themselves as 3rd wave. (I think it's a pretty meaningless term anyway to be honest)


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Re-watched 'A Film About Coffee'. To anyone who hasn't seen it, it's worth watching. Can be rented through Vimeo. What chimes repeatedly is commitment to excellence at all stages from growing to the cup. George Howells who pioneered Coffee of Excellence talks about how processing, roasting and brewing, be it espresso or pour over, 'offers a window into the landscape of coffee'. Bit poetic but a fair way of putting it. Specialty coffee has grown 25% in the last 20 yrs which is encouraging but only if that commitment to excellence remains.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

risky said:


> I think they would see themselves as independent or perhaps 'speciality'. 3rd wave is now a 14 year old term, and primarily refers to America in my experience, I'm not sure anywhere that thought they were on top of their game in the UK would describe themselves as 3rd wave. (I think it's a pretty meaningless term anyway to be honest)


 Independent, specialty, 3rd wave means the same thing - a step change from Starbucks et al in terms of providing coffee that isn't homogenised and produced to the highest standards.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Independent, specialty, 3rd wave means the same thing - a step change from Starbucks et al in terms of providing coffee that isn't homogenised and produced to the highest standards.


Is there something that tells me where the coffee is from , and can anyone tell me what it might taste like ....

Is the place clean and looks capable of making a decent drink

Ill stay and find out


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## Brewer in training (Feb 7, 2015)

Might have the wrong idea, but if you weren't happy with something you had paid for, maybe you should have advised the barista of your knowledge and experience.......

I'm sure your feedback would have been welcome, especially if you are a regular customer.

At the moment this thread is on 5 pages..... An apology, a free cup and a better informed barista would not have generated as many responses......

I believe it is in all of our interests for each and everyone of us to improve the quality of coffee available to us in public.....

But I also feel your pain!!!!!!


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## Brewer in training (Feb 7, 2015)

6 pages now.....


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

I was in London a couple of weeks ago in a well known place. My husband's flat white had a short black curly hair in it. Apology? Free drink? Nope, just looks of bemusement


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Brewer in training said:


> Might have the wrong idea, but if you weren't happy with something you had paid for, maybe you should have advised the barista of your knowledge and experience.......
> 
> I'm sure your feedback would have been welcome, especially if you are a regular customer.
> 
> ...


Come on now... were British.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

and its a forum .... we discuss things, this place would be boring as hell if the posts went like this

#1 - just bought a coffee from a 3rd wave shop, didn't like it so took it back

#2 - thanks for the info


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Dylan said:


> Come on now... were British.


Spot on.

You could pull a shot through 18g of dried fox turd and most of us would still say "fine thank you" if asked if we are enjoying it and just reach for the sugar.

It's in our DNA.

(although I am half Zimbo so there is a 50% chance that I would punch you and colonise your shop)


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Ive practically been banned from buying coffee by my better half whilst out now.

She sees "that look" cross my face and pleas with me not to complain, she hates the scene it could cause. The last time it happened she gave me my money back rather than me say something


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Having been a waiter ill complaon about food if it's bad enough, but I'm nice about it and I apologize profusely. But if a coffee is bad from a place more than a couple of times in a row I'll just stop going there. Vote with your feet, as they say.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Dylan said:


> Come on now... were British.


I'm not







.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Nor me, English!


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## Luc_ cI_I (Jan 25, 2016)

The Systemic Kid said:


> First flat white served up had an unpleasant bitterness to it so I took it up with the barrista. He didn't offer to remake the flat white. He said they were having problems with the roasters.


 What the .... ? If he acknowledged the problem on his side why he didn't offer something else? I would riot and sue lol


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> Ive practically been banned from buying coffee by my better half whilst out now.
> 
> She sees "that look" cross my face and pleas with me not to complain, she hates the scene it could cause. The last time it happened she gave me my money back rather than me say something


Priceless.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Nor me, English!


Shouldn't you be called Bulldoggystyle then   ?


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Grinders were Clima Pros which aren't supposed to drift during daily service.


They generally don't drift at all. Multiple bags of same roast will stay locked.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Scotford said:


> They generally don't drift at all. Multiple bags of same roast will stay locked.


I'll start at 3 then over the next ten shots work down to 2 and that will be it.

Dosing it starting to get a bit inconsistent though, wonder if i've knackered the flap somehow.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Is it a slow spin one? They're (even) more accurate than the last gen.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

6-7 seconds for 18g?


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

That sounds like me and my wife if I am out, it extended beyond my getting a drink though as I would hear the milk rumbling and giving up as it was boiled from my seat and I would be squirming and I would get 'The look'. The thing is I just could no longer enjoy anything. I am a chef and a coffee snob so going out became a chore.

Now though I have tried allowing myself to enjoy being out with friends. I just take the sugar and think of England to be honest other than the odd 3rd degree tongue burn it hasn't been as painful as it used to be. I can decide whether I will try the coffee normally even before I am through the door, and I'll have a tea if it looks beyond hope.



Jumbo Ratty said:


> Ive practically been banned from buying coffee by my better half whilst out now.
> 
> She sees "that look" cross my face and pleas with me not to complain,


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> Read all the comments with interest....I think we can do better at home, if we try. I know when making a coffee at home that:
> 
> 1. My machine is clean
> 
> ...


Dave called it 'spro. Call the villagers. Light the torches. Burn the heathen


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> I'll start at 3 then over the next ten shots work down to 2 and that will be it.
> 
> Dosing it starting to get a bit inconsistent though, wonder if i've knackered the flap somehow.


I was reading that somebody was recommended to leave it on 24/7 (by somebody from NS) and then that ups the consistency, apparently but obviously a little tricky if you're not in a shop/perm building.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

I send drinks back now. I didn't have the confidence in the past as I wasn't sure I knew what good tasted like. I did complain about a sour shot at Takk in Manchester via a tweet. Phillip (one of the owners) was all over it and invited me back to discuss over breakfast why I didn't like the shot, why Takk espresso tasted different than the medium - dark roasts (I was still a child of the Dark Side) I like at the time and what he expected his coffee to taste like. Obviously as he was serving to the boss, the barista was VERY careful with the espresso for Phillip and I over our breakfast. It won me over to the light side, but that shot I complained about was definitely sour not bright.

Long story but to get back on topic, I think if you can get the owner into the conversation, the results will be much better. I trust that the owners have a very definite idea of the quality they expect. Barista are employees and may not be as motivated to keep up quality when it is a difficult day (busy, hungover, bad mood....).


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## Taylor The Latte Boy (Dec 9, 2013)

aaronb said:


> With hand brews I've often seen the barista put a small bit in a separate cup to taste it. Makes sense really as they're prone to variation. than a properly dialled espresso.


I did this with every hand-brewed coffee I made at F+S in Manchester. Regular tasting on shift and testing espresso mass is essential (I won't weigh every single shot but I will time every shot and will weigh shots intermittently.) One of the biggest problems I've encountered is finding staff who care enough - even in the top notch coffee houses, they will still hire staff to train - it's not possible to hire all trained baristas who are committed to a career in coffee. Asking an employee for that is asking a lot! My job as head barista goes home with me, it goes everywhere with me, always learning, always thinking about it.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

A postscript.









Was in Idle Hands, Manchester, earlier and saw this. How apt.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> 6-7 seconds for 18g?


Think it might even be pushing 10sec for about that. Has a longer exit chute


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> A postscript.
> 
> View attachment 19527
> 
> ...


I love idle hands. Had some amazing espresso from there


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

aaroncornish said:


> I love idle hands. Had some amazing espresso from there


They are nice kids there.

Why are all shops run by kids> I have the long hipster beard. Covered in tattoos (from before Beckham made them popular) and wear a slouched beanie (as I'm bald). Oh right, I can't pay for a wife and an ex-wife on the salary of a barista.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Had a fairly decent V60 followed by a much better flat white - Nude espresso blend. Got talking to David, the owner, and shared my recent bad experience. He said he preferred a fully manual machine to the fancy bells and whistles gravimetric/volumetric kit as it required more care and attention to get the best shots rather than relying on automation. Interesting point.

Idle Hands are moving from the Piccadilly venue in April. As yet they haven't sorted new premises. I wish them well.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

I will pleased when they move. As much as I like their place, I hate that sweep of awful fast food and shops it is wedged in.


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