# Hot Water taps



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Can I ask, if anyone regularly uses their hot water tap? I was chatting to CC just now, and he made this point and since he is on the road, I said I would ask. If you have an HX, then the cooling flush is used to warm the cups, so what exactly is a domestic setting is the hot water tap used for and, would you really miss one if it was not there?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Use mine a fair bit as i like long blacks.

And its handy to have to rinse cups/pf.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> so what exactly is a domestic setting is the hot water tap used for


Symmetry


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## Olliehulla (Feb 26, 2013)

I use mine from time to time when making coffee for the Mrs as she has americanos. Otherwise it's pretty much redundant, I could easily live without it, especially as on the Giotto it feels like it's in the way of the brew lever !


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Good thing to know, would be what would you save by not having one? i could easily live without it if the saving was good enough.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Only use mine to empty the boiler when descaling


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

Hot water draw off is no big deal for me.

Water for Americanos I take out of the Group head as required.

Also rinse under the group.

No problem with a DB machine.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

froggy, why on earth would you use water from the water tap heated to 123 degrees to make americanos? Why do you not simply disengage the pf, wipe the screen and use water from there, that is at the right temp. All you are doing, is burning your coffee


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## Snaxmuppet (Apr 20, 2012)

Use mine for americans and also tea.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The reason Dave and I asked this question on a new thread, was that the Vostok is in CAD at the moment. from a production perspective, and this is a couple of laymen talking, then there must be a cost saving to be made in the production of a new machine, especially if you swim against the tide and drop the water arm which really serves no purpose whatsoever in the use and design of a coffee machine


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## Snakehips (Jun 2, 2015)

Pretty much never use it other than a drawing some water off periodically because I pretty much never use it......

Maybe it's borne of old HX habit but I still flush through the group to warm cups.


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

For better or for worse you could have some difficulty in selling a machine to the small user commercial market, hairdresser, small bars etc without a HW tap.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> froggy, why on earth would you use water from the water tap heated to 123 degrees to make americanos? Why do you not simply disengage the pf, wipe the screen and use water from there, that is at the right temp. All you are doing, is burning your coffee


I presumed it came from the main boiler...

I dont want it now.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

I use mine for descaling .. nothing else

out of interest @dfk41 said adding to americano would burn the coffee ? ...... is this scientifically possible ... at the point its in the cup its already a solution .. its been extracted, so using a stupidly hot liquid isn't going to extract badly .... so do you really permanently change the taste profile by heating up the solution above 100deg ? ... as coffee cools the taste changes, but thats more to do with tastebuds picking up more acidity at cooler temperature ... there is no more or no less acid at 80deg than there was as 90deg ?

positively interested as I have always upheld this belief .. but do question it sometimes


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Im gonna pull some shots tonight and use the bonivita and steam wand tonight and test...


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

I use mine to pre long the time span in between descales. If the hot tab is not used the mineral level should increase every time you steam.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

h1udd said:


> I use mine for descaling .. nothing else
> 
> out of interest @dfk41 said adding to americano would burn the coffee ? ...... is this scientifically possible ... at the point its in the cup its already a solution .. its been extracted, so using a stupidly hot liquid isn't going to extract badly .... so do you really permanently change the taste profile by heating up the solution above 100deg ? ... as coffee cools the taste changes, but thats more to do with tastebuds picking up more acidity at cooler temperature ... there is no more or no less acid at 80deg than there was as 90deg ?
> 
> positively interested as I have always upheld this belief .. but do question it sometimes


Well, my scientific abilities are well known (!).....if you add water at b123 to a solution at 95, then by laws of physics, the solution must increase. Milk should not be steamed at beyond the 75 to 85 degree mark as above that the fat globules break up. perhaps a boffin can help, but there will be a proven rationale as to why the brew temp is set to what it is, (we know the steam boiler is higher to make steam) questioning why you would want to use water heated to 20% more to top it up


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> The reason Dave and I asked this question on a new thread, was that the Vostok is in CAD at the moment. from a production perspective, and this is a couple of laymen talking, then there must be a cost saving to be made in the production of a new machine, especially if you swim against the tide and drop the water arm which really serves no purpose whatsoever in the use and design of a coffee machine


...but it's one of the things people always bring up as a negative when discussing the Oscar



h1udd said:


> out of interest @dfk41 said adding to americano would burn the coffee ? ...... is this scientifically possible ... at the point its in the cup its already a solution .. its been extracted, so using a stupidly hot liquid isn't going to extract badly ....


There's still dissolved solids in there which could be affected but in a recent Barista Hustle Matt Perger implied the old 'burning the coffee' thing might not actually be true


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

but milk is a solution of proteins mixed as an emulsion with fat suspended in the solution and emulsified by proteins .. so heating it too hot will break that emulsion ..... and the brew temperature is such that when the solute comes in contact with the solubles that is the grinds, you dont extract stuff you dont want.

but americana is a coffee solution that you are diluting .... the only thing I can think is that a hotter dilute would affect the natural sugars already extracted .. the acids and maillards shouldn't be affected till 140deg ?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> ...but it's one of the things people always bring up as a negative when discussing the Oscar


But why? If you have nonuse for the water tap, is, just because everyone else has one a sensible argument


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I use mine to wet a cloth - to clean to steam tip with .

That's it


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

I never thought of that ... I walk across the kitchen to the tap .... why have aI never considered the hot tap on the machine


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I would rather mine wasn't there, use it to rinse the jug for my Behmor and that's about it. The machine would look really uneven with only one switch/lever though, you would have to make the switch/tap much more discreet.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

My GCSE physics is perhaps failing me here but where is this 123 figure coming from? Shouldn't the water be steam if it was this hot?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Does it take the water from the bottom of the boiler?

Steam would come from the top?


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

some of it is steam ... but as the steam expands it puts the boiler under pressure which raises the boiling point of the water ...... its the same science that allows pressure cookers to cook food waaaaay quicker than normal as you can raise the liquid in them to well over 100deg without it turning to a gas


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

all this science is beyond me...but it makes me wonder why you would prepare a shot with water from the brew boiler and top it up with something far hotter. At the price coffee beans are, why risk making your shot worse when all you have to do is remove the porter filter, wipe the screen and take water at the correct temp to top your drink up


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Does it take the water from the bottom of the boiler?


My two group takes it from the top, you can't get hot water unless there's pressure in the boiler. Can't get my head round how it works


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

In a domestic setting I honestly cannot see that anyone needs a hot water tap. I agree with DaveC, why not use the kettle and save wear and tear on the coffee machine? On some of the up-market commercial machines you can choose the hot water temperature via a mixer which adds cold water to reduce from boiler temp. This, combined with a huge boiler, makes sense. Domestically, I don't think it does.

Edit: For DaveC please read DavecUK.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

I only use mine to empty the machine for period of non-use.

As a suggestion for this new machine, forget the hot water tap but put on some sort of drain to empty the boiler(s).

Ian


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Gwilym Davies, recommends only using water from a different source - kettle or specific water heater as it'll taste different from the machine but you won't burn the coffee. Also mentioned by Maxwell, brewing with the hotter temperature might make more roastiness come through in the taste but that's from when they were roasted (cooked) not from the brewing. At least that was the theory.

I don't think coffee really has any sugars present in an Americano to be affected, unless I've misunderstood something I read a while back which I can't find now or maybe there are: http://www.jimseven.com/2010/08/06/sugars-in-roasted-coffee-a-conversation/

I think the more usual is like the ECM Mechanika description from DaveC https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/ECMMechanikacloserlookv1.pdf

Hot water: the pipe for the hot water tap is submerged below the waterline in the boiler. As hot water tap is opened, steam pressure forces the hot water from the boiler through the pipe and out of the hot water outlet.

Potentially even if the pipe is higher, it's the same principal and maybe cooled by the pipes?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> froggy, why on earth would you use water from the water tap heated to 123 degrees to make americanos? Why do you not simply disengage the pf, wipe the screen and use water from there, that is at the right temp. All you are doing, is burning your coffee


Read the whole thread, lots of things to think about. Firstly this old chestnut of burning the coffee, simply not going to happen. The water from the wand is at 100C and if the cup is even 4cm below the wand the water hitting the cup will be at around 98C. You can't burn anything in the coffee, there is a confusion often made between extraction temperature and then the temperature of the water you add later to make a long drink.

If you also want to make tea, then you can hold the cup much lower, or if you are really worried, fill the steam jug then tip that into your cup.

*A hot water tap is handy because:*



*
*


The water in the steam boiler will increase in dissolved solids over time as you steam, the HWT is used too quickly drain down and allow fresh in

useful in descaling, especially when the hot water feed is near or at the bottom of the boiler

Useful for running some water out for cleaning

Useful for warming cups in a dual boiler machine or more than 1 cup in an HX

Handy if your kettle breaks

Handy to lower the water level to force an autofill on machines that are capable of autofilling during a shot and ruining it (Vesuvius and Verona will not autofill during a shot)


The lack of a hot water tap is a bit of a pain, it's one of the reasons I didn't like the NS Oscar very much, although I think they may have added a tap now. The reasons I usually don't like to use a hot water tap for hot water for a drink is that I can taste the copper if it's from a copper tank, I don't know if they have refreshed the water in the boiler or not and of course a kettle does the job so well.

I would use the hot tap in a machine a lot more though if the kettle wasn't nearby, the boiler was stainless steel and regularly slushed through. I caveat this for dual boiler machines, where the service boiler would already have to be hot, or in an eco mode at 75C, otherwise it's not going to make sense to heat up all that water for 1 cup of tea. Especially as I use a Breville hot cup

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002NGNRHC/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2?pf_rd_p=569136327&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B001L5SSGQ&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=1RW8VVP7ZHW2HG2S39P8

I have it next to the machine and it's so easy, simply place mug under, tap button, then get on with the machine cleanup.

P.S. Although well meaning, discussions like this sometimes lead manufacturers to think they don't need the hot tap...hence a machine like the Oscar!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

all discussion is good....even when you regularly get your nose rubbed in it...LOL


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> all discussion is good....even when you regularly get your nose rubbed in it...LOL


I simply picked out your comment as most representative of the "old chestnut" Dave, no intention of rubbing your nose in it, there's an awful lot of people who think the same way...probably much more than 50%!


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> froggy, why on earth would you use water from the water tap heated to 123 degrees to make americanos? Why do you not simply disengage the pf, wipe the screen and use water from there, that is at the right temp. All you are doing, is burning your coffee


Maybe he's lowered the steam boiler temp using pid on his r58??


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I simply picked out your comment as most representative of the "old chestnut" Dave, no intention of rubbing your nose in it, there's an awful lot of people who think the same way...probably much more than 50%!


sometimes the learning process is painful, but I would rather learn, that stay uninformed......no offence taken Dave!


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## Tewdric (Apr 20, 2014)

I use mine everyday for warming cups and americanos. I figure if I run a good pint through the the boiler everyday it stops crud build up and keeps the water in the boiler fresh. My machine is plumbed and run through a filter on the inlet so I'm reasonably happy to drink it!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Tewdric said:


> Indeed, liquid water drawn from the tap cannot be more than 100 deg c assuming 1 atm ambient pressure.


Yup been there typed that already.....do keep up!


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## Tewdric (Apr 20, 2014)

Sorry Dave late to the thread and just edited the post to say something more useful!


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