# Fast heat up: Sage Dual Boiler or Lelit Elizabeth PL92T



## fatwhite (Nov 25, 2018)

I currently have a Gaggia Classic and Niche grinder. I'm looking to upgrade the Gaggia to something that better fits our needs. In order of importance:



Brew and steam at the same time - All our drinks are milk based.


Fast heat up - Our coffee making is sporadic e.g. Family and friends pop in a lot


Automatic shots - Partner "just wants to push a button" no watching the scales


This eliminates a lot of options! I followed the "Fast heat ups" thread which concluded with the Sage Dual Boiler. One machine that was not mentioned was the Lelit Elizabeth PL92T. It has an almost identical feature set to the Sage Dual Boiler, however it is £450 more expensive.

Can anyone advise if it would be worth investing the extra money in the Lelit? I'm wondering if:



It would be more reliable


Easier to service


Better residual value (which might negate the price difference)


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

You can't brew & steam the same time on a sdp. To do that you would need a hx or better yet, a dual boiler.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

fatwhite said:


> I currently have a Gaggia Classic and Niche grinder. I'm looking to upgrade the Gaggia to something that better fits our needs. In order of importance:
> 
> Brew and steam at the same time - All our drinks are milk based.
> Fast heat up - Our coffee making is sporadic e.g. Family and friends pop in a lot
> ...


I don't think any of the machines you picked are push a button and go. You'll still need to grind, tamp, etc... pull the shot and steam milk.

The Sage has its pros and cons; reliability and cost of maintenance and repairs after warranty can be an issue.

I'm not sure about the Lelit, but would assume their components are more box standard and more widely used and available.

Another contender you might be interested in is the Profitec 300.

Sorry, not much of a help I know. I've seen the Sage in the flesh and used it and it's really good. But the fact that it is a marketed as kitchen appliance rather than a durable coffee machine worries me a bit.

When I was in a similar dilemma and ended up with a La Pavoni instead, I started by trying to find group gaskets for the Sage and Lelit. I did not have much luck with the Sage, and a bit better with the Lelit.

One thing to help you narrow down is to try and picture "what can go wrong or may I need to replace in the next 3 years" and try to find the spares or replacement parts.

Not sure about residual value of the Lelit. The Sage will depreciate quite a bit, just do a search on this forum.

You can phone Bella Barista and chat to them regarding he Lelit or similar machines and go from there.

I think they once stocked the Sage too if memory doesn't fail me.

Good luck!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

ashcroc said:


> You can't brew & steam the same time on a sdp. To do that you would need a hx or better yet, a dual boiler.


OP specifically says Sage Dual Boiler.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> OP specifically says Sage Dual Boiler.


Oops. Must have too much blood in my caffeine stream.


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## fatwhite (Nov 25, 2018)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I don't think any of the machines you picked are push a button and go. You'll still need to grind, tamp, etc... pull the shot and steam milk.


 Sorry, I should have been more clear. Yeah I just meant push a button and the shot cuts off after a certain time, rather than using the scales. The scales are a "faff" apparently!



MediumRoastSteam said:


> Another contender you might be interested in is the Profitec 300.


 The Profitec 300 is my personal choice but it lacks the semi-automatic shot unfortunately.



MediumRoastSteam said:


> Sorry, not much of a help I know. I've seen the Sage in the flesh and used it and it's really good. But the fact that it is a marketed as kitchen appliance rather than a durable coffee machine worries me a bit.


 This is what worries me. I did read over on HB that they serviceable to an extent.

Thanks for the response, I think phoning Bella Barista is a good shout, especially if they have previous experience of the sage. Cheers


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## fatwhite (Nov 25, 2018)

ashcroc said:


> MediumRoastSteam said:
> 
> 
> > OP specifically says Sage Dual Boiler.
> ...


 It was easy to miss, I only put it in the title and twice in the post haha


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

fatwhite said:


> It was easy to miss, I only put it in the title and twice in the post haha


Yeah, my brain has some serious skills when I'm not paying attention.

Volumetrics / gravimetrics isn't a bad idea so long as there's someone who's happy to go through the faff of setting it up & adjusting it occasionally. Have you considered a timer plug to auto switch on so the machine's up to temp when you want to use it? It'd open up a lot more machines to consider.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

I've just watched a couple of reviews of the Elizabeth and it looks a really nice machine. Novel pre infusion method using steam boiler pressure to drive water from the brew boiler at low pressure. The only downside I can see is that the programmable brew buttons are timed only and not volumetric? Still, I think I would prefer this to the Sage DB.


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## fatwhite (Nov 25, 2018)

ashcroc said:


> Volumetrics / gravimetrics isn't a bad idea so long as there's someone who's happy to go through the faff of setting it up & adjusting it occasionally. Have you considered a timer plug to auto switch on so the machine's up to temp when you want to use it? It'd open up a lot more machines to consider.


 That someone would be me I guess! With the Niche and my PUSH tamper I'm able to get some decent consistency, so the setting up of the auto shot for a given bean/roast should be doable. The timer plug is ok for the likes of a morning coffee, but doesn't solve the problem of friends and family popping in unfortunately. I really do want something that has this flexibility. I'd happily settle for a really good coffee in 10-15 mins over an amazing coffee in 40+ mins


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## fatwhite (Nov 25, 2018)

lake_m said:


> I've just watched a couple of reviews of the Elizabeth and it looks a really nice machine.


 Yeah from the videos I've seen it looks good too, I'm just not sure if it's 450 extra pounds good? The Sage Dual Boiler can be had new for £699 with a 2 year warranty, the Lelit is £1149 on Bella Barista.



lake_m said:


> Still, I think I would prefer this to the Sage DB


 Any particular reason(s)?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

fatwhite said:


> Any particular reason(s)?


Go to Lakeland if you decide to get the sage. They have a 3 year warranty & will price match most places for the same model (every slight change in colour will have a different model number) they stock.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

fatwhite said:


> Any particular reason(s)?


 Personal choice. Obviously can't comment on the longevity of the Lelit with it being a new machine. However, I would hazard a guess based on the materials of construction and Lelits history in making sturdy prosumer equipment that it will outlast the Sage in the long run. I like the DB a lot, it offers a heck of a lot for the money but I would worry about reliability issues down the line - it's designed and marketed as a kitchen appliance.


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

£700 for the Sage DB is a great price, aren't they normally nearer £1100? With a 3 year warranty from lakeland that looks a good deal. Its a much less intimidating looking machine for most people too.


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## Bladevane (Aug 14, 2019)

I've had the Sage DB for a couple of weeks and it fits my requirements perfectly. From cold it's ready to brew in 3 minutes although the cup warmer won't have done its job as it relies on radiant heat from the boilers. I find the shot timer much more reliable and easier to use than the volumetric option. Just had the White Glove visit and apparently the Sage DB is the only domestic machine they look at, all the others are commercial. That says a lot. Currently the machine is £699 from eCookShop.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Bladevane said:


> Just had the White Glove visit and apparently the Sage DB is the only domestic machine they look at, all the others are commercial. *That says a lot.* Currently the machine is £699 from eCookShop.﻿


 Genuine question - what does this suggest to you?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Bladevane said:


> Just had the White Glove visit and apparently the Sage DB is the only domestic machine they look at, all the others are commercial. *That says a lot.* Currently the machine is £699 from eCookShop.﻿


 Genuine question - what does this suggest to you?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

To the OP, if you get a Sage make sure you look after it carefully. Putting good water in it (not too hard etc.) and descaling regularly is essential - from my experience but it is a good machine to make coffee with!


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## kjarsheim (Sep 24, 2016)

Profitec Pro 300 PID doubles as shot timer, FWIW


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

The Sage has the advantage over the Lelit in that it uses volumetric measurement instead of a straight timer to cut off the shot.

I could see that being very inaccurate in terms of trying to achieve a certain brew ratio unless you used the same bean, grind, basket prep within a hairs whisker, otherwise you'll get a different cup of coffee every time.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The main thing that Sage do which gives a fast heat up time is provide separate heating for the group head. Few if any domestic machines take very long to heat the boilers but Sage do that pretty quickly as well. The other 2 usual methods of heating the group head are much slower. Likely to be anything between 20 and 30 mins, a few longer without a lot of flushing. All should be flushed before use anyway - including Sage but very briefly.

I looked at Lelit. I was some what put off by the use of brass boilers. I would also be cautious about novel approaches from any company. I didn't get as far as checking on ease of descaling. Lots fall short on that. Sage doesn't but as I flush the boilers twice it takes about 1hr. Each stage is a 20min cycle. It also looks like it needs doing more often than Sage suggest via the use of a test strip and the reading from that entering into the machine.

The DB is a tough machine to compete with. Other than people who want Italian bling it's probably fortunate that it has it's problems.  Fix them and frankly I'd wonder if any compete. Looks like they wont at it's price point.

Timed shots can can be highly consistent but it takes a certain style of approach. For instance I set up a mazzer mini so that it dumped a perfectly central heap of grinds into the portafilter and also weighed the beans in, used a brush twice and span the grinder up twice plus the usual puff of air via the rubber lens hood mod. I then simply used a grooming tool on the heap and a calibrated tamper. Once some one has done that they can deliberately do other things to the grinds and see what happens. I'll say no more other than it takes very little to upset things.

The DB has a volumetric setting. Sadly it's in the wrong place compared with others. It's before the OPV. It is on the BE as well. The flow meters aren't fantastically accurate. They are similar to what was used on cars for mpg before injection could be used to get a far more accurate result. This is true of all espresso flow meters really. It's just another control that will push things in the right direction when something changes read prep for the source of the change. The BE comes volumetric and that's that. It can work well providing little water goes out of the OPV. The DB can also probably be used in the same way but people will normally tune so that lots of water goes out of the OPV.

Lastly reliability and repair. I feel that people need to realise that espresso machine need servicing at some point. So in some respects this is only of interest to people who want to do it DIY. The problem with repairs on Sage is that an engineer has to call and fix so people pay for parts, travelling and site time. They do have engineers scattered about the country. The alternative is to keep the box and send or take it to there. That also results in a lower hourly rate. It wont be fix while you wait so will be posted back. I would assume if some one asked for a service cost that might include O ring replacement, level probe clean and a check over it would probably be no worse than others. Might even be cheaper if parts are needed.

DIY? Well all machines have manufacture dependent parts in them. Downside on Sage is we can't buy them. There is a lot of info about on the DB due to the number that are sold. 2 things crop up. O rings - usually last for around 3 years and solenoids. Solenoids may act up purely down to lack of back flushing. There is a guide around on here about what people should do to look after an espresso machine. Back flushing would be done more frequently than Sage suggest. It also mentions looking inside the machine periodically. Mine doesn't have a warrantee so all I have to do is lift of the top as I haven't replaced the screws. Maybe I will at some point.

The solenoids that Sage use are from Italian companies that make espresso machine solenoids. I don't know for sure yet but it looks like the one in a DB could be replaced with a part from several makers. The pump is an Ulka part. Not seen any mention of these wearing out. I have seen mention of changes and the fitting of metal OPV valves. The solenoid is like most of them of any type very easy to clean.  Sage use a stainless base. I'd guess people would go for brass if others do fit.

The other aspect is level probes. Seems they need cleaning now and again otherwise the valve error during descale may crop up. More frequent descaling may get rid of this problem anyway. Some have seen an engineer do this but no mention of what they did.  I forgot to ask an engineer when he did some work on my BE. The problem with water even bottled water is that it will leave something behind when it boils. Only fix is RO water treated with something that makes it safer to drink and leaves soluble scale. RO water isn't 100% pure either.

LOL so returning to the OP's question take your pick. In real terms overall for many people the DB is hard to beat even with a higher budget. It has it's foibles. The main one is pucks sticking to the shower screen and a curious position for a flow meter. There are solutions to the sticking pucks. Then comes the above which as I may have pointed out isn't as simple as some seem to believe.

John

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## Bladevane (Aug 14, 2019)

jlarkin said:


> Genuine question - what does this suggest to you?


 It suggests to me that Coffee Classics did not think it worthwhile dealing with domestic machines until they found the Sage DB.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Bladevane said:


> It suggests to me that Coffee Classics did not think it worthwhile dealing with domestic machines until they found the Sage DB.


 I'd imagine they'd work with any company that pays them to do so as long as there's a profit to be made, but it does show that they are repairable and serviceable. There was a time when some people were suggesting they weren't for some reason.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

ajohn said:


> Timed shots can can be highly consistent but it takes a certain style of approach. For instance I set up a mazzer mini so that it dumped a perfectly central heap of grinds into the portafilter and also weighed the beans in, used a brush twice and span the grinder up twice plus the usual puff of air via the rubber lens hood mod. I then simply used a grooming tool on the heap and a calibrated tamper. Once some one has done that they can deliberately do other things to the grinds and see what happens.
> 
> -


 If his wife doesn't want to press a stop button, I'd be surprised if she'd be happy with that ?


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

The price you have there for the Sage is an absolute steal. If you can get an extended warranty to 5 years I'd go with that, just to be on the safe side.

The one thing that would worry me is availability of the element that heats the grouphead. That's unlikely to be an off the shelf part and if it fails the grouphead may never get hot enough by ambient heat only. This will ruin your espresso. As others have commented though, they seem to be serviceable so I can't see there being a problem, it's just something I'd check.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

White gloves is a free service for DB and some other buyers. What it means in practice is that on this machine there is enough bunce to pay for it. Coffee classics handle all of Sages work on all of their machines - even the Infuser. Seems they are about in the UK. When an engineer repaired my BE I am pretty sure he could have made a nice drink with it but we decided that as it hadn't been used for a long time best descale etc first. He had beans with him. Fresh pack. I might try them.

 Bunce is a sales term for slightly evil profit by the way. It also crops up with repairs - Sage want some and Coffee Classics may not sell people parts. Seems they did once but have been told not to. I was told that they could provide part numbers. Not sure what that means in practice.

CC may respond to quoting prices for a service. On the other hand they might tell people to ask Sage. They might say no. This only crops up once a machine is out of warrantee. They don't appear to try and blame the user. I for instance was told what I shouldn't do with a Sage grinder. I hadn't but in real terms there is no way they can know.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

cold war kid said:


> If his wife doesn't want to press a stop button, I'd be surprised if she'd be happy with that ?


 A problem with good coffee at home. Too much about precision and not enough about needed precision and taste. There is an argument that if super precision is needed no point in paying for machines that provide timed shots. OK but say you put scales on a machine and pull a shot via weight. Time will vary. If it didn't the timed button would be ok. Weight out or time variations can alter taste so it's a matter of degree in either case. Grinders are not dead consistent either. My rule on that was if shot changes by 5g adjust the grinder. That's ok if prep is dead consistent and from a taste point of view I could allow more variation. I accept more variation using Niche and look for repeated changes before I alter the grinder. Taste - it's ok for me, Ideal is low 40g out, 50 is still very drinkable but not exactly as I would like it. Niche produces a better taste than the Mini did so I put up with it. The main thing as far as taste is concerned for me is dose weight and grind.Niche - I keep trying various things to improve consistency - bit of a hobby with me as in real terms as the drinks are fine I could just carry on doing the same as I do now.

LOL so in a nut shell if people aren't prepared to accept some variation tough as something will vary what ever they do. So it all comes down to what a drink actually tastes like really and if that varies too much why.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Thats alot of words that actually say very little ....does anyone make coffee at home and the focus is not the taste.....


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Thats alot of words that actually say very little ....does anyone make coffee at home and the focus is not the taste.....


 And that comment really does say a lot about why things vary how ever coffee is brewed doesn't it.

In other words was there any point what so ever in you posting it.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> And that comment really does say a lot about why things vary how ever coffee is brewed doesn't it.
> 
> In other words was there any point what so ever in you posting it.
> 
> ...


 Ok Ill put it another way

Your post makes no sense to me, and it is alot of words.

You reference taste and then grams in the same sentence

"low 4Og is ideal ", ideal what , you don't mention a dose that makes this so we have no idea , what you are referring to . Made from 7g , made from 20g ...

" That's ok if prep is dead consistent and from a taste point of view I could allow more variation"

I dont understand this sentence either .. More variation in what weight out ? Again more or less weight out is changing the strength of a shot , then along with grind used and temp will impact on extraction which feeds into the perceived taste..

What is needed precision ?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ok Ill put it another way
> 
> Your post makes no sense to me, and it is alot of words.
> 
> ...


 Yawn. Usual pointless flack.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Yawn. Usual pointless flack.
> 
> John
> 
> -


 That doesn't actually help me or I suspect anyone understand what you are taking about though.

I mean it ..what are you trying to say


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Yawn. Usual pointless flack.
> 
> John
> 
> -


 I don't think it is flack, just a request for some clarity.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Sorry but I have put enough time in on this already. I also wonder where I could get a 40g basket from. Grams of grinds used doesn't matter other than a quantity that meets taste requirements.

Suppose I should add that variation in grind weights can produce large change in output or time for the same output but isn't that obvious.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Sorry but I have put enough time in on this already. I also wonder where I could get a 40g basket from. Grams of grinds used doesn't matter other than a quantity that meets taste requirements.
> 
> Suppose I should add that variation in grind weights can produce large change in output or time for the same output but isn't that obvious.
> 
> ...


 I've read your last sentence 3 times and it still makes no sense.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> I don't think it is flack, just a request for some clarity.


 Oh yes it is just like your post.

John

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## Bacms (Jul 25, 2019)

What is going now on the forum at the moment. Several people doing long posts that are very unclear. When someone questions what they say they are met with aggression. Let's all calm down folks and stop seeing everything as personal attacks it doesn't help anyone

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Bacms said:


> What is going now on the forum at the moment. Several people doing long posts that are very unclear. When someone questions what they say they are met with aggression. Let's all calm down folks and stop seeing everything as personal attacks it doesn't help anyone
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


I blame brexit 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fatwhite (Nov 25, 2018)

Well this thread got very strange!

Thanks all for taking the time to respond. With the advice given here and having spoken to Bella Barista about the Lelit Elizabeth, I was going to order the Sage, however I'm guessing the folk that read all the good things about it got there first! They're all sold out at £699 ?

That changes everything tbh. I don't think I'd go to £900 for the Sage. I'd rather spend the extra and get something a bit more special. Ah well ?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

That's unlucky. If you can wait a couple months, black Friday is just around the corner which could bring the price down again if previous years are anything to go by.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Well....

The La Pavoni heats up really fast. All you need to tell your other half is to lift the lever up to fill it up and then to push it down all the way. That's volumetrics isn't it?


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Late to this thread, but it makes no sense to but any machine or grinder that you cant easily get spares for, it doesn't matter how well it works but the manufacturer is deliberately selling you a product that they hope will become landfill.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

jimbojohn55 said:


> Late to this thread, but it makes no sense to but any machine or grinder that you cant easily get spares for, it doesn't matter how well it works but the manufacturer is deliberately selling you a product that they hope will become landfill.


 I'd agree with you, but other people are now saying that they are serviceable and repairable.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

cold war kid said:


> I'd agree with you, but other people are now saying that they are serviceable and repairable.


Think it depends on what part breaks & whether you're willing to wait for shipping from Australia etc for machine specific parts.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Bladevane said:


> Just had the White Glove visit and apparently the Sage DB is the only domestic machine they look at, all the others are commercial. That says a lot. Currently the machine is £699 from eCookShop.


 When you say "look at" do you mean service and repair or just come round and show you how to use it? When I first read that, I assumed they had taken over UK servicing for Sage, but reading back I'm not so sure.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

cold war kid said:


> When you say "look at" do you mean service and repair or just come round and show you how to use it? When I first read that, I assumed they had taken over UK servicing for Sage, but reading back I'm not so sure.


 I'm pretty sure white gloves is Coffee Classics but may be some other lot. Anyway White Gloves is only available on certain machines. Oracles as well from memory. A white gloves visit for one of those resulted in the dosing being adjusted a couple of years ago.

John

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