# Problem extractions - any suggestions?



## Heligan (Aug 24, 2013)

So, I've had a frustrating few days with disappointing extractions. I'm using a Gaggia Classic (OPV mod) always left to warm up for at least 30 minutes, Mignon grinder, 18g VST basket, 58mm Cafelat tamper. The problems began a few days ago when I switched to Londinium beans, the first time I've used them. I don't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with the beans, by the way, I'm just finding them very tricky compared with what I've been using (mainly blends, but some SO).

I haven't changed technique and while I'm sure there's plenty of room for improvement I've been quite pleased with what I can usually produce, so I'm frustrated at how things are at the moment.

The following clip shows grinding, tamping and two different extractions. This is with the Brazil Fazenda Passeio. The first is too fast (and so poor I'm embarrassed to be sharing it!) and the second a bit slow, but they were only a nudge apart on the grinder setting.






Most are in the middle of these two, but all have in common that they start very dark, there's no tiger striping, the consistency seems thin and then it goes light and fast with lots and lots of spritzing.

I know Reiss roasts for lever machines and I'm not expecting to get all the flavours some of you do with L1s, but I think my problems are distribution related and I need to address those first.

I'm dosing 18g in, aiming for 28g out in 27 seconds, although I had a little more success later today with 17g. I've also tried nutating, although I wasn't in the video.

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you very much.

Jane


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Wowzers. I would suspect the grind quality / distribution is at fault


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

I've personally found the londonium beans end up spritzing quite a bit. They generally taste brilliant though.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Can't see anything that should be causing major issues although have relatively little experience.

Some beans are just tricky to work with. Caravan did some Rio Azul last year that was phenomenal but it was so hard to get a decent shot out of. My local cafe had it on - they said it was a struggle too and they sinked a load of their shots which didn't make me feel quite so bad.


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## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

I have the Londinium De cafe, and for me it certainly needs a finer grind than the others I've been using but my grinder is a Mazzer SJ.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Gangstarrrrr said:


> I've personally found the londonium beans end up spritzing quite a bit. They generally taste brilliant though.


I've found exactly the same with the Londinium DSOL Rwandan beans. It sticks in my mind as it was the first time I'd ever produce a twisting pour on a naked PF.

I'm sure there are more experienced members on here but I can't see any major flaws with your technique. I like the series of funnels with the Mignon.

If no-one can offer any alternatives it might be worth trying a variation in your technique. Try one of the following:-

Plan A. After dosing click the basket into the PF. Still stir the grinds but rather than levelling tap the basket flat on the work top once, then tamp straight onto grind.

Plan B. After dosing click the basket into the PF. Still stir the grinds but rather than levelling nutate then tamp.

Plan C. Keep your routine as is but grind coarser and tamp harder.

Let me know if it makes the any improvements or just makes it worse


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

What happens when you dose straight into the basket without the need to use the whisk, then do a sweep of the coffee (keeping it all and not throwing any away), then a tamp?

The WDT is pretty unnecessary and may be causing issues in the puck

Give it a go with minimum fuss and see what the difference is.

Thank you for sharing the videos. They certainly help to diagnose the issue.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Jane something that puzzled me on the 1st shot. You were grinding into the basket on the scales, then stirred the grinds up , then levelled and swept off what looked to be quite a bit of coffee so you had then not got the weight you thought.

Try tamping straight down onto the mound of coffee before you put the basket into the pf, only tamp once and polish lightly no need to do both twice. Excellent idea with the mini whisk for de-clumping by the way, have you tried without stirring the ground coffee?


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## Heligan (Aug 24, 2013)

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions, I will try some different things tomorrow and report back.



urbanbumpkin said:


> I've found exactly the same with the Londinium DSOL Rwandan beans. It sticks in my mind as it was the first time I'd ever produce a twisting pour on a naked PF.


At least I'm not I'm not the only one! I haven't tried just tapping before so I will give that a go. I have tried nutating but I think the grind was too fine as it choked the machine so I need to go coarser and try again, and when I tried just grinding coarser and tamping harder it was no better.



Glenn said:


> What happens when you dose straight into the basket without the need to use the whisk, then do a sweep of the coffee (keeping it all and not throwing any away), then a tamp?
> 
> The WDT is pretty unnecessary and may be causing issues in the puck
> 
> ...


Thanks, I will try going back to the minimum. The Mignon can be quite clumpy, especially at a finer grind, so I thought WDT was the way to go. I tried stirring with the whisk instead of the cocktail stick but that left it quite clumpy still, so then thought I could break up the clumps with the whisk as well as stirring with the stick. So the routine grew and maybe I have added complexity where it's not needed.



Charliej said:


> Jane something that puzzled me on the 1st shot. You were grinding into the basket on the scales, then stirred the grinds up , then levelled and swept off what looked to be quite a bit of coffee so you had then not got the weight you thought.
> 
> Try tamping straight down onto the mound of coffee before you put the basket into the pf, only tamp once and polish lightly no need to do both twice. Excellent idea with the mini whisk for de-clumping by the way, have you tried without stirring the ground coffee?


Well spotted! Actually I let the grinder go a bit too long so I had 18.2g hence the excess in the basket which I then removed. The second polish was because there were a few stray grounds on top which looked untidy.....just as I was doing it I thought "I bet someone will pick me up on that!".

Yes, I have tried without stirring, the grinds don't look as though they need it after the whisk, but for some reason it does seem worse without. I will try tamping before I insert the basket, I hadn't thought of changing that.

Thanks again all, much appreciated.


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## Heligan (Aug 24, 2013)

A quick update on this morning's experience. There weren't that many beans left to do much experimenting, so I had a couple of goes doing what Glenn suggested and paring my routine right down. I have to confess that I was surprised that it was better without the whisk or WDT. Not spritz-free, but noticeably better. I thought I'd been helping to reduce a problem but instead it looks as though I've been creating one. So thank you Glenn.

Today the Coffee Compass DSOL beans arrived courtesy of Xpenno and I've dialled those in and am back to nice looking extractions with no spritzing, which has given me some confidence back.







The rest of the Londinium beans are in the freezer so I'll go back to them at a later date, in the meanwhile I want to just enjoy making coffee instead of feeling I'm fighting it!

Thanks again for all your help.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Good to hear your shots are hitting the mark.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Glad you are enjoying the beans









When I owned a classic I had problems similar to this part of the fix was to improve my technique and part was lowering the pressure via the OPV valve.

My observations, and I am in no way an expert on anything....

As others have mentioned, when you are running your finger around the basket go round a couple of times to incorporate all of the coffee as opposed to discarding it.

Grind a touch tighter?

Check your pressure, mine was a newer model that shipped with the pressurised PF, the pressure with a blacking plate was 15bar. Using a standard bottomless basket things were pretty hectic at that, I can't even imagine what it would have been like with the generally higher flow rate of a VST. When I started using the VST on my Verona it took me a fair while to get the thing working at 9bar. I know others may not agree but I personally think it's worth a look if you've not already, it's easy to do/undo.

I was using the 18g VST with 18g and the puck was getting messed up. I switched up to at 22g (as I don't have a 20g) and went up to 20g coffee. I found that the extra headspace on the puck made a big difference to getting rid of channelling. You could maybe try tightening up the grind and using a couple of grams less coffee.

Having said all this I'm sure there are people making superb coffee with 18g coffee into 18g VST into a Gaggia Classic at 15bar









Hope something in here helps...

Spence


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## Iwwstriker (Dec 6, 2013)

No stress, when your subconscious brain keeps telling you that you must perfect your shot this time, just tell yourself that you should enjoy a cup of coffee without any fuss at all. I have a un-mod Gaggia classic and an Iberital MC5. I was told by senior members in the forum not to stress out and be too technical, so that's what I did. Ends up their comments are harsh but I learn something in the end. Well, at least my shots are not spurting and they remain converged in the centre, with tiger strips in the end results. But I am gonna try the OPV mod on my gaggia classic now. So I would post up videos regarding the improvement of my extraction. Good luck in your coffee journey =D

Cheers.

Ivan


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## Heligan (Aug 24, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Glad you are enjoying the beans
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for your ideas Spence. Coffeechap has also suggested lowering the dose to 16g, and that's definitely something I shall try when I get back into the Londinium beans. Yes, I lowered the pressure a while back and I found it made a big difference, and I even checked a couple of days ago that it was still correct (even though there's no reason it would change over time) along with backflushing, cleaning and anything else I could think of.

In the meanwhile I know I can get a good result out of your DSOL beans.


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## Heligan (Aug 24, 2013)

Iwwstriker said:


> No stress, when your subconscious brain keeps telling you that you must perfect your shot this time, just tell yourself that you should enjoy a cup of coffee without any fuss at all.


Good point, coffee should be fun!


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## Bob Henderson (May 17, 2013)

I don't think most grinders respond immediately to adjustment, they need a few goes. If your grinder has steps then may need to adjust for a slower extraction by putting a bit more coffee into it. Also I'd put more pressure onto the tamp, the intermittent extracting represents air bubble in the basket


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