# La Pavoni - very uneven pour, lack of crema



## MrNik (Aug 28, 2018)

Hi all,

Needing some more guidance on improving my La Pavoni shot.

I am getting very very uneven pour, 80-90% of the shot is from the left spout...I am using a Eureka Mignon and beans roasted within last 2 weeks...

I vary between a strong tamp (9/10 force) and medium tamp (6/10 force)...How much force should I really be putting?

I am also getting very little crema, I usually put 13g in, pre-infuse for a count of 10 seconds, and pull for about 20-30s to get 28-30g out.

Also on the pull, depending on the grind the amount of force I use on the lever can vary, if I grind for medium force then my my pull will only last around 15-20s, and if for a heavier force than 25-30s.

Oh I also use a temperature strip on the group head, when the temp reaches 90c I start grinding, so another 1 minute later I think I should be around 94c.

Any suggestions on what I should vary would be great.

Thanks

Nik


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## bluebeardmcf (Nov 28, 2016)

The beans?


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## DanB (Aug 28, 2018)

Hi- Looking at your older posts, I have a very similar machine so I have a few suggestions after a couple of years of experimenting. 
It's very sensitive to variations in dose +/- 0.2g
I started out grinding too fine- try coarsening the grind so you don't choke it or have to pull with serious strength. 
Similarly I started out tamping too hard. Try just to use your fingers. 
Is it sat on something 100% flat? Even a v slight slant would make it mostly come out of one spout. It's hard to describe but with the portafilter twisted in, I found the two spouts aren't exactly side to side, they are also a bit front to back. When you pull hard, you bend the machine a little forward, favouring the spout nearest the front. 
A bottomless portafilter is not cheap but make a big difference to diagnosing your shots. The other benefit was that the basket with the bottomless holds 16g. Trying to fit 13g in the original basket, I would often overfill.

Hope you find at least something here of benefit.

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## MrNik (Aug 28, 2018)

Beans - I have been using kiss the hippo George St blend, or caravan roasters, generally roasted within the last 2 weeks.

Thanks Dan, I did go a little coarser and although the distribution didn't improve much the shot as a whole was better.

I will try tamping with less force.

I am really toying with the bottomless portafilter...

Thanks

Nik


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## Maz100 (Jan 7, 2013)

Hi,

Here's what i did. Use a glass espresso cup or shot glass so you can see what's going on the wider your cup the thinner your crema will appear. Play with grind, tamp and dose varying one thing each time. If that doesn't work try adjusting the temperature. The pressuretat is adjustable but might be gently glued at the factory setting, mine was set incorrectly. The bottomless portafilter will improve a good shot but it won't fix a poor one.

Crema is nice but taste is better. You can get more crema from robusta beans but personally I don't like the taste.

Hope that helps.


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## hotCUPPA (Sep 24, 2019)

open the steam wand when the machine is getting pressure and let some air out, close it

pull a water 'shot' to warm up the cup and the group

aim for a grind fine enough you can tamp with your fingers pushing down the tamper instead of palm of hand

cut the 10 secs pre-infusion to 2 seconds (adjust from there)


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Most important thing with your tamp is consistency. 
You're letting the machine get too hot. If you're pulling when the group is at 94 then the water in the boiler will be closer to 100. I try and pull the shot when the strip is at 80-85. I also find with many beans that I need to extract longer to get the best out of them. I usually hold the lever up for 10 seconds and take depending on the beans between 40-60 seconds to pull the shot.


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## mit_hirani (Jun 23, 2020)

I'm having a similar issue to the OP. My shots are lacking crema. I'm tamping as hard as I can, what impact will that have on my shot, compared to a lighter tamp?

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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

mit_hirani said:


> I'm having a similar issue to the OP. My shots are lacking crema. I'm tamping as hard as I can, what impact will that have on my shot, compared to a lighter tamp?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


 What's your routine, what beans are you using, what grinder, do you have temperature strips, how much coffee are you putting in and how much is coming out? The more info you can give, the better the advice will be.


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## mit_hirani (Jun 23, 2020)

Nopapercup said:


> What's your routine, what beans are you using, what grinder, do you have temperature strips, how much coffee are you putting in and how much is coming out? The more info you can give, the better the advice will be.


I'm using square mile red brick blend, roasted last week. Kinu M47 Phoenix grinder. Using between 14-14.5g of beans with 28-29g out. 
Routine:
Grind beans, wdt using a toothpick. Level the puck, using a combination of the toothpick, vertical and horizontal taps (finding that I'm struggling with this consistently). I then tamp as hard as I can. 
Remove false pressure. Flush water until the group head temp is 85c. Lift lever halfway, insert PF. Raise lever, leave raised for 10 seconds. Lower lever slowly or Fellini until 28g output achieved. I have tested pulling slower/faster but still very little crema.
Any tips would be appreciated.

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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

mit_hirani said:


> I'm using square mile red brick blend, roasted last week. Kinu M47 Phoenix grinder. Using between 14-14.5g of beans with 28-29g out.
> 
> *If that is the stock basket I'd reduce to 13, make sure you have a good puck clearance so you aren't disturbing it on the way in.*
> 
> ...


 This is what I would change

Btw I should add I've only had my la pavoni for a week, but I like to science the sh1t out of things, so I've been testing testing testing as well as reading and learning and watching everything I can! So I am now producing the best possible shot I believe I can get with my grinder.


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

@TomHughes gives some good advice.

Felini method isn't necessary and can just cause channeling. If you're not getting enough output just reduce your dose which will give more room for water.

Also how long does the shot take to pour? Maybe you need to grind finer and take longer to extract the shot.


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## mit_hirani (Jun 23, 2020)

Nopapercup said:


> @TomHughes gives some good advice.
> Felini method isn't necessary and can just cause channeling. If you're not getting enough output just reduce your dose which will give more room for water.
> Also how long does the shot take to pour? Maybe you need to grind finer and take longer to extract the shot.


@TomHughes@Nopapercup thanks for the tips. Very helpful.

When you say fellini what do you mean? You shouldn't need to do it to get 28g. 
I pull up very slowly, insert PF when about half way (so suction doesn't unseat puck) when it pre-infuses I push down with a small force until a few drops, then slowly re-raise then do some very small pumps at the top to remove air, then slowly depress down, normally getting 36g out.

I've been waiting for a stream of liquid to reraise the lever (normally around when lever is parallel to the floor) Think that's too late. How do you define pre-infusion? Lever fully raised? Or slight downward pressure?
Recently, I've stopped doing any extra pumps to see if that makes any difference on crema.

Also I'd pre-infuse at 78-80deg. 
I did some tests comparing group temp to a thermocouple inside the PF to get water temp. 
80C on the group equalled 93-94 in the coffee. 82 was around 95. I certainly wouldn't want to go hotter than this. 
If you wait till it hits 85 it can't act as a heatsink and pull heat away from the water fast enough, so the water will hit at 100c.

When you do this, do you flush the grouphead with water first? I find that one flush of the group head raises the temperature to around 85c.

I haven't timed the shot tbh. What sort of timing should i be aiming for?

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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Why are you doing all of this? Just fill the portafilter, tamp, put it in, raise the lever all the way for 10 seconds than pull your shot. No pumps no felini, it's all crap and unnecessary.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

My method.. (after heating up, purging air, and heating up to pressure).

Put coffee in portafilter. Post Millennium 15 to 16g. Tamp (but not really hard.. Old saying with levers.. Grind fine, tamp light..)

Loosely put portafilter in machine, lift lever to just before water enters group and tighten. Lift all the way slowly. I don't like a sudden rush of water into the group, I prefer to listen and hear it gradually enter the group.

Wait 10 seconds and the rest my hand on the lever to give a little bit of pressure. Drips start to appear, push on lever gradually. Maintain a firm pressure on the lever to create a constant flow. You shouldn't be putting all your weight on it as if trying to bend a steel bar, nor should the weight of a teabag push it down. It's usual to steady the La Pavoni by putting your spare hand on the boiler cap to stop it tipping.

Don't give a crap about crema, taste is more important. Don't get hung up on what it looks like.

Using felini gives the possibility of cracking/channeling the puck by drawing air through it. I can get 30g out of 15g coffee, maybe a bit more. Roughly a 1:2 extraction.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

mit_hirani said:


> @TomHughes@Nopapercup thanks for the tips. Very helpful.
> 
> When you say fellini what do you mean? You shouldn't need to do it to get 28g.
> I pull up very slowly, insert PF when about half way (so suction doesn't unseat puck) when it pre-infuses I push down with a small force until a few drops, then slowly re-raise then do some very small pumps at the top to remove air, then slowly depress down, normally getting 36g out.
> ...


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## mit_hirani (Jun 23, 2020)

Thanks all, will try these changes out and let you know how it goes.

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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

mit_hirani said:


> Thanks all, will try these changes out and let you know how it goes.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


 I would just keep it simple until you get it down and then if you want you can start playing about with felini methods. Personally I think they're a waste of time.

The length of time to extract doesn't really matter but it's worth doing in order to compare but go by taste. Depending on beans I take after pre infusion of 10 seconds between 35-50 seconds (sometimes longer) to extract the shot.


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## mit_hirani (Jun 23, 2020)

Nopapercup said:


> I would just keep it simple until you get it down and then if you want you can start playing about with felini methods. Personally I think they're a waste of time.
> The length of time to extract doesn't really matter but it's worth doing in order to compare but go by taste. Depending on beans I take after pre infusion of 10 seconds between 35-50 seconds (sometimes longer) to extract the shot.


I agree, trying to keep it simple. I'm around 1 month in. Getting very drinkable shots, but want to get better at extracting more of the notes on the beans i get.

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## mit_hirani (Jun 23, 2020)

I've made around 4 shots since yesterday. I'm able to grind finer than usual without choking by tamping lighter. All the shots have been quite bitter. Have been grinding slightly coarser each time. Getting there slowly, but burning through this bag of beans.

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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

mit_hirani said:


> I've made around 4 shots since yesterday. I'm able to grind finer than usual without choking by tamping lighter. All the shots have been quite bitter. Have been grinding slightly coarser each time. Getting there slowly, but burning through this bag of beans.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


 Bitter would imply overextraction, how long is it taking you to pull the shot?

When starting out with these machines it's worth buying a kilo of the same bean, something not too expensive and no lighter than medium just to learn with. It just takes one variable away to thing about.


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## mit_hirani (Jun 23, 2020)

Nopapercup said:


> Bitter would imply overextraction, how long is it taking you to pull the shot?
> When starting out with these machines it's worth buying a kilo of the same bean, something not too expensive and no lighter than medium just to learn with. It just takes one variable away to thing about.


Yep, it's over extracted. That's why I'm going coarser each time. Might need to go coarser in bigger increments so I can find a range.
I bought a large amount first time around, managed to get really tasty shots and thought I'd mastered it. But then really struggled with the next two beans which were dark/ med dark blends. 
Will get a kilo of beans for next batch.
Cheers

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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Rhys said:


> My method.. (after heating up, purging air, and heating up to pressure).
> 
> Put coffee in portafilter. Post Millennium 15 to 16g. Tamp (but not really hard*.. Old saying with levers.. Grind fine, tamp light*..)
> 
> ...


 Missed this first time, massive difference in moving to a lighter tamp


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