# V60 - Brew times, dose and yield.



## Mm391 (Apr 19, 2020)

Hi All,

Hope everyone is well I have a relatively newby type question.

I have found this great tasting coffee that works amazingly with the V60 pour over method. I chanced the recipe and by luck found the quantities that give me a taste I like. My recipe is 10g of coffee with a yield of 160g (ratio of 1:16)in about 1 min 55.

If I want to make double the quantity I would double the dose to 20g, the water would double to 360g.

Initially I thought I would have to double the brew time. But that doesn't seem right now I have thought about it. There is double the coffee to extract the goodness out of so doubling the brew time will extract too much from the coffee and give me a much more bitter and tasting shot than I want.

Therefore I'm thinking I will have to make the grind size coarser to keep the brew time the same. Is this correct?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

As brews get bigger, you need to increase the flow rate to prevent over-extraction, so as brew time can vary greatly for a similar result, your 10g & 20g brews could easily overlap in time. Concentrate on keeping the pour times consistent, this is what brews the coffee...total brew times will vary by coffee & that's normal.

I'd grind coarser, focus on the 20g brews if that is what you will make most often, then just break up the pour into smaller pulses for smaller brews.

Minor point, you said your brew ratio was 1:16 with a 160g yield. A 1:16 brew ratio would normally refer to the amount of brew water and result in more like a 140g yield. Twice 160g is 320g, not 360g (1:18).


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## Mm391 (Apr 19, 2020)

Thanks so much @MWJB I did actually mean 320g 🙄.

When brewing I usually use 180g of water, which gives me 160g in the cup. Based on your description my brew ratio is 1:18.

10g are what i would usually use but occasionally, when I go for a walk, I want to take a bigger cup.

Sorry if I'm being slightly slow but can you elaborate on "then just break up the pour into smaller pulses for smaller brews."? What do you means pulses. Do you mean small doses and keep as consistent a brewtime as I can of 1 min 55?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mm391 said:


> Sorry if I'm being slightly slow but can you elaborate on "then just break up the pour into smaller pulses for smaller brews."? What do you means pulses. Do you mean small doses and keep as consistent a brew time as I can of 1 min 55?


 No problem, the bigger brew will need a coarser grind, The smaller brew will now under extract at the coarser setting & the original pour time. So, to stop the smaller brew from under-extracting pour the water over a longer timeframe (e.g. break it up into a couple, or 3 pours) that you originally were for the 10:180g brews. Often it's best to make your coffee at the coarsest grind that extracts satisfactorily.

So for illustration, for 20g brew you bloom 30s with 40g water, then pour up to 360g by 1:15. For 10g you might bloom 20g for 30s, then another 75g at 1:00, another 75g at 1:30? All in by 1:50? I can't be more specific at this stage because you haven't told us how long you are pouring for & my 21.5g:330g brew take around 3:10 +/-25s, so I guess you are a lot finer than I generally brew at.

You don't want a brew time of 1:55 all the time, you will eventually use different coffee & even brews with the same coffee & weights will vary, brew time does not = consistency. Pour time = consistency. You're hopefully intending to make consistently extracted coffees, not win a time trial 

Or, split the difference & make all 14/15g brews (changing brew size willy nilly is equivalent to changing grind setting).


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## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

I've got a question related to grind setting - I was brewing 24g with 400g water on the 02 V60. My first brew was too bitter with the paracetamol taste and had time so set my grinder one click coarser and then got salt. I suspect I'm on a hump between two tasty points in extraction, the question is which way to go - back off coarser or push through tighter? Or does it not matter so long as I get through the hump - for reference I'm on the finer side of the recommended pourover setting on the 1zpresso JX but see this as a relative rather than prescriptive change needed.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Kjk said:


> I've got a question related to grind setting - I was brewing 24g with 400g water on the 02 V60. My first brew was too bitter with the paracetamol taste and had time so set my grinder one click coarser and then got salt. I suspect I'm on a hump between two tasty points in extraction, the question is which way to go - back off coarser or push through tighter? Or does it not matter so long as I get through the hump - for reference I'm on the finer side of the recommended pourover setting on the 1zpresso JX but see this as a relative rather than prescriptive change needed.


 I guarantee you that this (over to under) isn't happening in the span of 1click on your grinder.

You're not telling us much about how you are pouring, so my first suspicion is that something else is at play.

A video would be good?


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## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

MWJB said:


> I guarantee you that this (over to under) isn't happening in the span of 1click on your grinder.
> 
> You're not telling us much about how you are pouring, so my first suspicion is that something else is at play.
> 
> A video would be good?


 You're right, let me repeat this a number of times to see if it is a reliable fault - have to remember to score a run of brews to see a trend.


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## Tongle (Apr 5, 2021)

James Hoffman did an 'Ultimate V60' recipe available on YouTube.


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## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

So I have purposefully avoided V60 until now as I knew it was a rabbit hole I could easily lose a lot of time, I wasn't sure I had, down. However, that all changed when I was gifted (a ceramic) one. It isn't a Hario.

I was left with no choice but to get some filters and a gooseneck kettle (I just got a cheap Melitta) and give it a go. I simply wait until the kettle is boiling and then start the first pour as soon as possible as the beans I've had are light-medium.

Well thankfully I have been pretty pleased and it is nice if for nothing more than 'mixing it up' away from my CCD and moka pot. However consistency is a struggle.

To start with I have tried two methods to get a feel for things.

*Method 1:* @MWJB's from here:-

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/58940-hario-v60-02-18270g/?do=embed

I have tried this at 40/45/50 on the Niche.

*Method 2: *






Again I have tried this method across 40/45/50 grind setting on the Niche.

These are very different recipes and I've got to the point where I'm not really sure how to refine a method to get consistency.

40 on the Niche seemed too fine on both - was getting bitter notes and a bit of the paracetamol taste. If I didn't swirl/ agitate on the Sprometheus method then I didn't get the paracetamol taste, but the flavours were poor.

I think I am getting somewhere grinding coarser, but to be honest already feel like I am shooting in the dark. The consistency isn't there, more so on the MWJB method, but even when I get my timing right across brews on the same day the taste seems noticeably different.

Are there any ground rules or an approach to refining a method I can use, which I can track more easily?

Cheers


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

OK, there are not different recipes per se, there are different pour regimes (tied to grind size) that achieve the same recipe (a tasty & recognisable cup of that coffee, with no obvious malfunctions). A finer grind can tolerate a faster pour, a coarser grind will need the water poured at a slower average. The results might vary a little in texture/clarity between 2 brews at a similar extraction at different grind, but flavour generally not. There's a wide range of grinds that will work, but not at all pour speeds.

I wasn't able to make anything like a representative cup at 40 on my Niche. 50 will still be too fine on the Niche for my method. E.g. 57 on mine gives 13% at 400Kruve, I don't know what setting will give 9%, try 75 (guess)? Best to start too coarse, then work back in 1 direction.

Consistency when pouring 33g every 30s should be no trouble, each pour takes ~15s. Don't overfill the kettle, it'll cause the early pours to gush out. 330-350g water will be fine.

Brew times don't indicate consistency**, pour times drive consistency. If you want to make a video I'll try and trouble shoot it for you. I'll have a go with my Niche & Lockhills tomorrow.

**(Though mine were +/5s 1stdev, the 33g/30s pour is like a lowest common denominator method in that brew time cannot be less than 3:45 even if the water pisses through the bed & likely won't exceed 4:10)

If there is a ground rule, it's, 'keep everything the same & change 1 input (in this case grind setting is your major culprit) to tune', rather than flit between recipes.

Hope this helps


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## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

That's fantastic, thank you @MWJB - I'll stick to the 33g/30s pour for now and go much coarser on the grind. I'm not at home today, so will have to try tomorrow.

I'll practice a little more and then I might try doing a video - but I think there is enough to think about for the time being!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

FWIW I made a brew at 74 today, still a bit fine for 33g/30s, dry bed at 4:15, so maybe try more like 80, or a shade over?


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## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

I'm drinking a naughty late cup after just getting home as I've not had one today and need it to get through bedtime!

I was at c.75 and dry bed was a bit before, 4:12ish. Pour times were better, but early ones still a struggle. 350g water in kettle.

Certainly fewer over extracted tastes, but if anything flavours seem maybe a little more muted. I'll try again in the morning.

Do you ever agitate at all, either at the beginning to help wet all grounds, or just after the final pour?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> Do you ever agitate at all, either at the beginning to help wet all grounds, or just after the final pour?


 Not with this method, it isn't necessary if you grind coarse enough as the coffee will wet more easily. I'd never agitate at the end of brew either as this can increase silt/charred flavours/mute clarity. The pouring of the water should be enough.


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## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

c.85 on Niche - dry bed at c.3:50

Early pours still a bit fast. Slower means the water dribbles a bit, I don't know if this is a bad thing or not.

Certainly heard the first drips into the cup a lot sooner than before.

Quite a different taste. Will back off a little on the grind later today and see what that's like. I am hesitant to wonder at this stage if under extracted.

A couple more questions - water temp and v60 temp.

Water temp: How important is water temp? I don't have any way to know exactly what the water temp is. I wait for it to boil and then it has from the hob to the other side of the (small) kitchen before I pour immediately.

v60 temp: As mine is ceramic I stick it in the microwave for a minute to warm it up. Does it need to be piping hot? Any hotter and I'll need to wear an oven glove I think. It does cool relatively quickly.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> Water temp: How important is water temp? I don't have any way to know exactly what the water temp is. I wait for it to boil and then it has from the hob to the other side of the (small) kitchen before I pour immediately.


 That's what I do. Start brewing straight after it boils. You get a lot of temperature drop by the time the water hits & wets the coffee, so you're not brewing at anything like 100c.



PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> v60 temp: As mine is ceramic I stick it in the microwave for a minute to warm it up. Does it need to be piping hot? Any hotter and I'll need to wear an oven glove I think. It does cool relatively quickly.


 It doesn't need to be piping hot.

It doesn't matter if the water dribbles a bit, a little bit of dribbling is inevitable when pouring at this rate. Try and keep the spout as low to the bed as possible.

Just made a cup at 81, longer brew time at 4:24, a little over, so I need to be coarser, you can't be far off at 85, coarser still is feasible, maybe try 88/89?


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## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

MWJB said:


> That's what I do. Start brewing straight after it boils. You get a lot of temperature drop by the time the water hits & wets the coffee, so you're not brewing at anything like 100c.
> 
> It doesn't need to be piping hot.
> 
> ...


 Cheers - that's helpful and sounds good. I think coarser might be the way to go after a try at c.82 earlier today.

On your video I also noticed that you didn't rinse the filter before pouring. Do you normally not rinse?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I don't rinse white Hario/Rombouts/Kalita filters.

Just had a cup at 87, still on the over side, 4:11 TBT, acidity coming through better though, I'll go 93 next. In this range 6 marks seems to equal half a % extraction yield with this method...I'm at 20% at the mo' and the other Colombians (what I have now) were hitting around 19.5% with the other grinder.


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## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

That's a fascinating insight. Are you testing all of these on a refractometer?

It is interesting how when you start, something can taste alright, good even, and then you head in the right direction and the context changes how you view/ think about all your previous brews.

I've got to work on my 2-cup brews once I get this sorted.

BTW, my beans are Banka (China) from Django.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> That's a fascinating insight. Are you testing all of these on a refractometer?
> 
> It is interesting how when you start, something can taste alright, good even, and then you head in the right direction and the context changes how you view/ think about all your previous brews


 I measure nearly all my drip brews at home. Not because I'm trying to hit a very specific target with each one, more for general data/trends. Before I made the video you linked to, I made & measured 10 brews, same grind setting, different coffee for each, one live take for each brew, as I do for all my tested methods. This helps give me an idea of what to expect in real world brewing with frequent bean changes. The option is always there to tweak further, but my view is that if a method works, it works.

Sure, for years I shied away from drip/pourover after receiving some bad advice as to how immersions are more consistent (they're no more/less consistent). I never really understood the relationship between the input parameters until I started logging everything. I'm not saying I've got everything totally sussed, but I am at place where I feel I can reliably brew a representative cup (once grind is dialled in) and choose when/if I want to tackle the rabbit hole of continuous improvement.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

93 best result so far, representative cup, 4:14 TBT


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## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

MWJB said:


> 93 best result so far, representative cup, 4:14 TBT


 Agreed. I was at c.93 too - although the best I can do description wise is "a definite jump in tastiness" - really nice.

Dry bed at c.3:53 - do you end TBT at dry bed?

I am very surprised I've got all the way to 93 from 45 originally. Might do one at 45 tomorrow just to remind myself what it takes like.

If I want to make two cups, does this scale?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> Agreed. I was at c.93 too - although the best I can do description wise is "a definite jump in tastiness" - really nice.
> 
> Dry bed at c.3:53 - do you end TBT at dry bed?
> 
> ...


 I dawdled somewhat while drinking this cup and was still tasty when stone cold...might just be the coffee though. I don't usually find that.

Yes, I call end of brew when the liquid disappears from the bed, as this is a visual cue, I still let it drip for 20-30s after that, to allow consistent beverage weights.

I honestly don't know about 36:534g brews...I rarely brew bigger than 27:420g (I mostly brew with 200-210g water because I have more 7oz cups than anything else & the 18:270g method was really more for other folk), you could try pours of 67g every 30s & see what you get, report back?

Personally, I'd buy a 2nd brewer and make 2 cups side by side, with the current method


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## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

@MWJB I totally agree with the 'try and see comment' - I do need to be more experimental.

I have however realised I don't have anything large enough to brew in to. Looking at carafes you hit £40 pretty quickly and it isn't a priority at the moment.

Not sure I can juggle two side by side, but quick succession should be okay.

What method/ recipe do you use at 37:420g?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> What method/ recipe do you use at 37:420g?


 Well that (27:420) was really a one off, Chemex with Hario paper. More an example of the biggest brew I made recently, pour 70g every 40s. This wasn't made with a Niche but try it at 92/93?

If 23:360g appeals, I have done a few more at this size in V60, setting 81.5 on Niche, pour 45g every 20s, start with spirals, then as you get standing liquid over the bed pour straight down the middle.

I don't have a thoroughly tested method for these larger brew sizes.


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## hge (Nov 12, 2020)

I've just ventured into V60 space. Picked up a V60/02 , filters and got some nice coffee from a speciality shop. I did ask them to grind it for me as i don't have one at the moment. I understand might be hard to guess without an estimate, but i reckon its ground to espresso grain (fine).

I've been following the hoffman method mentioned previously, 15g/250ml. Not measured yeild yet.

I do have a question on the draw down time. What i do is add 30ml (45 secs) , 150ml(30 secs), 70ml (30 secs) and wait for drawdown. I can get may be 80% of the brew out in about 3-3:30. But the remaining , takes forever, may be 6 mins plus. Is there anything i can do to improve this? I don't want to waste coffee trying too many things 

In terms of taste , the first cup i brewed was excessively sour. The second cup , i add 50ml to bloom and was certainly more balanced than the previous one. Just experimenting here, only made 2 cuppas , but hoping to improve.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You're saying the grind might be too fine & that the brew times are long which could lead to over-extraction.

But then you say that the cup is sour, which suggests under-extraction. So it's hard to know what is going on.

If you are sure the grind is on the fine side, bloom, quick stir, then get all the water in as soon as you can.

Pour in a spiral until you have standing liquid over the bed, then switch to a centre pour.

Don't swirl the brewer, or stir after adding the water. Over agitating can cause bitterness & stalled brews.

If brews are still bitter/silty/powdery, make smaller brews as smaller brew at the same grind & ratio extract less.

It might be a good idea to ask the cafe how they brew, as they ground the coffee for you.


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## hge (Nov 12, 2020)

MWJB said:


> You're saying the grind might be too fine & that the brew times are long which could lead to over-extraction.
> 
> But then you say that the cup is sour, which suggests under-extraction. So it's hard to know what is going on.
> 
> ...


 All great advice. Cheers. I've got my self a handgrinder and some beans so will have greater control over it in the next few weeks or so. It certainly helped me to know that a sour cup is under-extraction.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

hge said:


> All great advice. Cheers. I've got my self a handgrinder and some beans so will have greater control over it in the next few weeks or so. It certainly helped me to know that a sour cup is under-extraction.


 Good news.

I didn't say it was under-extraction for sure, I was just saying that the fault wasn't clear because your observations spanned both ends of the spectrum (I've never had 1 mug V60 take more than 6min, if it did, I doubt that it would be sour).


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## James811 (May 10, 2014)

hge said:


> All great advice. Cheers. I've got my self a handgrinder and some beans so will have greater control over it in the next few weeks or so. It certainly helped me to know that a sour cup is under-extraction.


 Definitely try the April method, it's my favourite, it may not be the absolute best but its so simple and repeatable it's what I use 90% of the time.

12g-200g

Coffee ground pretty coarse (25 on commandante)

Then just divide the water into 4 equal pours, so 4x50g

Start by poring the first 50g really slowly and gently over the bed.

The three remaining pours should be done at a medium speed causing a little agitation.

Start each pour just as the bed is almost dry from the previous pour. Most coffees should finish around 2:00-2:30


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## hge (Nov 12, 2020)

James811 said:


> Definitely try the April method, it's my favourite, it may not be the absolute best but its so simple and repeatable it's what I use 90% of the time.
> 
> 12g-200g
> 
> ...


 Cheers , going to try this out.

Just swapped to using the manual grinder (Hario slim) and i think the hoffman method is kinda crap for doing two cups at a time , as the coffee feels a little weak. I will try these measurements out.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

hge said:


> Cheers , going to try this out.
> 
> Just swapped to using the manual grinder (Hario slim) and i think the hoffman method is kinda crap for doing two cups at a time , as the coffee feels a little weak. I will try these measurements out.


 I don't use the Hoffmann method, but any 60g/L recipe should come out the same strength when dialled in.

You don't need to stick to 60g/L if you are happy with the flavour & just want more strength/intensity. I prefer about 66g/L (1:15) and tweak between 63 & 69g/L.

I think it will be easier to make cleaner cups with 1 cup brews & the Hario slim, with it's wide grind distribution.


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## hge (Nov 12, 2020)

MWJB said:


> I don't use the Hoffmann method, but any 60g/L recipe should come out the same strength when dialled in.
> 
> You don't need to stick to 60g/L if you are happy with the flavour & just want more strength/intensity. I prefer about 66g/L (1:15) and tweak between 63 & 69g/L.
> 
> I think it will be easier to make cleaner cups with 1 cup brews & the Hario slim, with it's wide grind distribution.


 Yeah , i found it much easier to make a single cup rather than two , but flatmate would love to get in on the action 

I also think some other things might be impacting the brew , as i use a osmio zero rather than a kettle , so temp is a little off. Will also try the 1:15 ratio. Cheers!


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