# What next?



## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I'm about 2 months into using my new set up, Verona + HG-1, and I'm pulling some very nice shots.

I've got what I think is a decent workflow and technique which has been fairly stable in terms of changes for around 4 weeks - when I get round to it I'll post a video for people to critique, but I've worked on grinding, tamping, distribution, weighing, single dosing, dialing in, temperature, freezing, logging results, finding the right accessories, and most recently measuring TDS.

The quality of the shots I pull has improved massively, in fact I think they taste amazing, and the time it takes me to dial in has reduced significantly.

I'm drinking mainly 2:1 ratio and while I'm tweaking brew temperature I'll be honest and say that I find I don't often need to move it that much. I'm not measuring TDS very often at all, more using it for initial dial-in as a way to understand why I'm tasting what I am given my experience level, I'm tweaking things by taste as beans get a little older as well but don't feel the need to measure TDS when I do.

Very happy with all the gear I have, the Verona in particular is amazing, from day 1 it's never done a thing wrong.

I'm enjoying exploring loads of different types of beans at the moment, I had thought I liked dark roasts, it turns out I prefer medium! at the same time I'm trying to get better at Latte art, but given I drink 1 cappa a day I'm happy for that to take a long time to perfect.

*The question I'm left wondering is where do I go from here*, are there any other areas that I should focus on to improve the quality and taste of my shot with the gear I have? nothing I'm worried about but I do wonder if I could make this shot taste even better, more chasing the god shot maybe? Should I be tweaking brew temp more?

Other than critiquing my basic technique does anyone have any suggestions?


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Is there something nagging you ? Something missing from your coffee that you've tasted elsewhere ?

Sounds like you could be in danger of seeking something that doesn't exist.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Nothing missing as far as I know and not worried about anything.

I've read loads, learnt a lot, just sanity checking that I'm not missing something.

I have a slight worry that I should have bought a Vesuvius, though the more I use what i do have the more I know I don't have the space.

Just sit back and enjoy the coffee time?


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

That's pretty much my philosophy. I enjoy the drinks I make and, bar a bit of fine tuning, don't intend to change a deal.


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Time to take up home roasting (a whole new rabbit hole to fall down







)

John


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Incase you havent considered it, tongue scraping









Tongue scraping enhances your taste buds and the flavors you experience by removing the gunk that builds up on your tongue.

When your tongue is coated in this buildup, you can't fully expose your taste buds and fully experience the wonderful flavors in your coffee.

Have a look into it.

Just might actually work


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Water? My training session with @garydyke1 demonstrated the effect the make up of the water has. You may already have experimented this but I don't think you mentioned it.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

(a) drink coffee, be happy, relax

or

(b) enter the UKBC ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

1:2 ratio please , unless you are making 20g into 10 g , then change it

A Vesuvius wont change your coffee experience to a huge degree , grinder and water might have some marginal impact, but really relax and enjoy would be my advice . Just try a world of beans at with different taste notes and don't get hung up on subjective roasting colours, try , try try whether arbitarily listed as medium , dark or light etc . Make sure you try different varietals and countries too.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Haven't experimented with water, I'm using Volvic and Waitrose 50/50 so unless there's a lot to be said about blending water based on personal taste I plan on sticking with that.

I'm trying lots of different varietals, countries and processing techniques to get a good wide range of experience, and really enjoying doing it!

Have thought about roasting and it's something I might do in the future, but first I need to get more experience of beans that I know have been roasted by pros.

1:2 ratio yes, doh. Good to hear the Vesuvius and different grinder will only give marginal gains, don't plan on swapping anything out.

Tongue scrapper on order...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I would say the grinder is the thing that may give you the most marginal games , as opposed to pressures profiling . If you wanted to spend money that where o would be going ( to a big flat )


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I stopped myself from buying the used EK that was in the for sale section twice....looked seriously into what it would take to replace the base with a smaller 1 so it would fit under my cupboard, might be something for the future but I'm not ready for an upgrade just yet.

Maybe when the opportunity arises I'll go and test some grinders side by side to see what I'm missing - I'm currently touring a few cafe's in London when I'm there to get a feel of different grinders but nothing beats a side by side.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

The reason I mentioned water is that you own a refractometer so are in a position to measure the difference it makes to extraction and of course also consider its effect on taste and it's something that shouldn't cost you anything. I'm not suggesting you get obsessive about it (unless you want to) but you might be able to improve your results easily and with tools you have to hand. (In case it's of interest I've just changed to a 75% Waitrose Essential 25% smartwater mix which has resulted in an improvement over what I was using which was an Ashbeck/Volvic mix).


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Phobic said:


> I stopped myself from buying the used EK that was in the for sale section twice....looked seriously into what it would take to replace the base with a smaller 1 so it would fit under my cupboard, might be something for the future but I'm not ready for an upgrade just yet.
> 
> Maybe when the opportunity arises I'll go and test some grinders side by side to see what I'm missing - I'm currently touring a few cafe's in London when I'm there to get a feel of different grinders but nothing beats a side by side.


https://www.gumtree.com/p/coffee-machines/unused-mahlkonig-coffee-grinder/1193894250

It's been on before so might be open to offers.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

dan1502 said:


> The reason I mentioned water is that you own a refractometer so are in a position to measure the difference it makes to extraction and of course also consider its effect on taste and it's something that shouldn't cost you anything. I'm not suggesting you get obsessive about it (unless you want to) but you might be able to improve your results easily and with tools you have to hand. (In case it's of interest I've just changed to a 75% Waitrose Essential 25% smartwater mix which has resulted in an improvement over what I was using which was an Ashbeck/Volvic mix).


Thanks for this, maybe I should go and do a bit more water research and have an experiment, that might scratch my desire to fiddle with things


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Get an ek with coffee burrs would be my advice


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Look you are making tasty coffee , chill enjoy , spend less money . Don't come on the forum , it's a pathway to spending money on marginal gains .


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

dan1502 said:


> https://www.gumtree.com/p/coffee-machines/unused-mahlkonig-coffee-grinder/1193894250
> 
> It's been on before so might be open to offers.


dammit, that's very tempting.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Look you are making tasty coffee , chill enjoy , spend less money . Don't come on the forum , it's a pathway to spending money on marginal gains .


but but but they're so shiny


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Sorry







. Sounds like it's an itch you need to scratch...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Phobic said:


> Thanks for this, maybe I should go and do a bit more water research and have an experiment, that might scratch my desire to fiddle with things


Your 50:50 Waitrose Essential (2L bottle):Volvic is in the SCAE ideal zone.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Enjoy your coffee

and beware the upgraditis bug as the cure can be expensive


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Your 50:50 Waitrose Essential (2L bottle):Volvic is in the SCAE ideal zone.


Yes, I had thought that was the perceived wisdom, is there any point in looking to improve on this? will personal taste make much enough of an impact to make it worth the effort?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Thecatlinux said:


> Enjoy your coffee
> 
> and beware the upgraditis bug as the cure can be expensive


I really don't have any upgraditis scratch to itch, the SE EK is interesting but only because I looked long and hard at buying an EK + Vesuvius originally, if the SE's were easier to get hold of I'd probably have bought one over the HG-1 at the time.

anyway, as I said in the 1st post, I'm happy with my gear, not looking to change!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Phobic said:


> Yes, I had thought that was the perceived wisdom, is there any point in looking to improve on this? will personal taste make much enough of an impact to make it worth the effort?


Well it's always worth exploring changes, I'm sure that anything can be improved some, but there aren't many bottled water combinations that fall in this region, which has been the subject of quite a bit of research with respect to sensory & boiler longevity aspects. You can play with the balance of Volvic to WE too, maybe up to 3:1?

I'd establish where your preference seems to lie, with respect to shot parameters & EY, then see what you can do to improve consistency of shot making.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

MWJB said:


> I'd establish where your preference seems to lie, with respect to shot parameters & EY


That's some nice advice thanks, looking back I think i've being doing it in part already but not consciously or with any structure. I certainly seem to prefer 1:2 ratios looking back at my notes, but don't have enough data on EY yet to draw any conclusions, one to work on.

As for consistency, I think with the exception of the odd gusher every now and again my shot's are fairly consistent, maybe a video critique might uncover something I could do better/different, I'll get round to that at some point....


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Cool, but you should only have a preference for 1:2 ratios if going shorter prevents you from getting a good extraction, or if going longer leads to a shot that is too weak/diluted. A good flavour balance (extraction) should otherwise be possible at various ratios (but no need to change if you are happy).


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

sure, I'm purely dialing in by taste, it might just happen to be that the majority of the coffees I've had tried are in that range, it's not a massive sample size in 2 months so could easily be coincidence!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Phobic said:


> sure, I'm purely dialing in by taste, it might just happen to be that the majority of the coffees I've had tried are in that range, it's not a massive sample size in 2 months so could easily be coincidence!


At the risk of sounding like a broken record...and it wouldn't be the first time ...if you are brewing at 1:2, and the brews are good, then that's fine & carry on. But, they're not 'happening' to be in that range, you're putting them there - a self fulfilling prophecy. Any coffee that hits a reasonable range of extraction at 1:2 will fall in a fairly small window, that will be the same for all coffees (in terms of what you are measuring - you did say that you were measuring EY). The majority should be good in that range, unless you hit a particularly insoluble coffee & can't grind fine enough to compensate, then you might need to pull longer?

Brew ratio sets target strength, grind setting steers flavour balance (EY).


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Another thought .....

Ditch the science for a while. Ignore EY and base your level of happiness on what youre drinking rather than where it appears on a graph

Think this is the luddite in me


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

MWJB said:


> At the risk of sounding like a broken record...and it wouldn't be the first time ...if you are brewing at 1:2, and the brews are good, then that's fine & carry on. But, they're not 'happening' to be in that range, you're putting them there - a self fulfilling prophecy. Any coffee that hits a reasonable range of extraction at 1:2 will fall in a fairly small window, that will be the same for all coffees (in terms of what you are measuring - you did say that you were measuring EY). The majority should be good in that range, unless you hit a particularly insoluble coffee & can't grind fine enough to compensate, then you might need to pull longer?
> 
> Brew ratio sets target strength, grind setting steers flavour balance (EY).


Had to re-read this a few times, I think you're making an interesting point.

It looks like I'm naturally leaning towards 1:2 as I seem to prefer that strength brew, which is fine, however maybe different brew ratios would taste better for different beans.

Unconsciously I now realise that I've changed my dial-in approach over time to be:-

1. Adjust grind until I get a decent pull at 1:2

2. using same grind setting tweak shot weight to adjust balance (EY)

3. tweak temp to fine tune extraction

Previously I was

1. Large grind adjustments to get a pull in about 30s as a rough starting point

2. change pull time until the shot was roughly balanced using same grind setting

3. Fine tune grind setting keeping weight the same

4. Tweak temp

Given what you've said I think I should go back to my previous method as that will help me find beans that might taste better at different brew ratios even when they taste good at 1:2. The last 3 points of which will all effect EY, are they doing so with finer levels of control?

Is this dial in process right or should/could I be doing things differently?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

working dog said:


> Another thought .....
> 
> Ditch the science for a while. Ignore EY and base your level of happiness on what youre drinking rather than where it appears on a graph
> 
> Think this is the luddite in me


That's pretty much what I'm doing anyway, I'm only really using EY at the moment as a pair of stabilisers as a way to confirm to myself that something tastes over/under extracted - I'm finding it handy while I improve my palate and gain more experience.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

I've found that getting a better understanding of the science is helping me no end in understanding the impact of changes I make, my dialling in routine, understanding why shots taste the way they do and how to overcome it etc which leads to much improved flavour. It is taking me time to get my head around though but feel that it should get me to a point where I'm experienced enough and have refined my palate enough to dial in much quicker and just enjoy the coffee plus buy smaller batches of beans with less waste meaning I can try more varieties.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

When you say increase shot weight do you mean yield? If so, you are no longer producing 1:2 (which is fine).

My process is currently more in line with your original process though instead of changing pull time with the same grind setting I would say changing yield.

Once I'm happy with the yield I am changing the grind setting to vary strength.

I only consider time as a guide to how fine I am grinding (for that particular bean) and/or as a reference point.

I try and be consistent with tamping and am working on optimising distribution for even extraction and to try and avoid simultaneous under and over extraction.

In terms of temperature I'm currently sticking with 93 degrees.

My shots are tending to be longer but that's probably down to me using an EK.

I'm happy to be corrected on any of this.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Phobic said:


> Given what you've said I think I should go back to my previous method as that will help me find beans that might taste better at different brew ratios even when they taste good at 1:2. The last 3 points of which will all effect EY, are they doing so with finer levels of control?
> 
> Is this dial in process right or should/could I be doing things differently?


Change the brew ratio if shots are too intense/bland at a target extraction, I don't see much reason for beans to be greatly preferred at different ratios, at target extractions, unless you are making shots with hugely different roasts?

Don't change pull time, you might find shots fall +/- 3 to 5 seconds for ball-park extractions, focus on weight, record time.

Tweak temp if all shots are not falling within target EY. Temperature will effect it's own change apart from EY, so keep it constant, unless you have a persistent problem.

The way you are doing things now looks more normal. Shots pulled at the same time can still have a relatively large variance in EY, but shots pulled at the same weight & slightly different times will have more consistent EY.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

I'm trying to follow this method but still have to refer back to it from time to time as it's not yet second nature (I probably described it inaccurately above):

https://baristahustle.com/espresso-recipes-putting-it-all-together/


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Change the brew ratio if shots are too intense/bland at a target extraction


Great I'm already actually doing that, it just seems to not be needed that frequently - related to my point about happenstance.



MWJB said:


> Don't change pull time, you might find shots fall +/- 3 to 5 seconds for ball-park extractions, focus on weight, record time.
> 
> Tweak temp if all shots are not falling within target EY. Temperature will effect it's own change apart from EY, so keep it constant, unless you have a persistent problem.
> 
> The way you are doing things now looks more normal. Shots pulled at the same time can still have a relatively large variance in EY, but shots pulled at the same weight & slightly different times will have more consistent EY.


Great thanks for taking the time to explain, very useful to sanity check, gives me a bit more confidence


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

dan1502 said:


> When you say increase shot weight do you mean yield? If so, you are no longer producing 1:2 (which is fine).


Changing shot weight and keeping the grind the same will change EY, and yes that means ratio changes. The reason why I say it this way is that different flavor compounds are extracted at different times so keeping the grind the same, reducing the weight (and therefore shot time) will bring in more acid, go the other way and it will get more bitter, this is the balancing that I'm referring to in step 2 of my current dial-in procedure.

Yes there is impact on EY, and I am tracking that, however I'm changing the metrics based on taste rather than EY.


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