# Air in system preventing complete heat up??



## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

I have been finding my Londinium doesn't warm up completely first thing in the morning (this is after sitting idle for a couple of hours), unless I do a few mini steam releases. Is this because of something I am doing the previous day (maybe my short cleaning flushes are introducing air into the system??), or is this quite normal?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Sounds like the thermosyphon is stalling, which was quite normal on the early ones. All you need to do, is once you have pulled the shot and dispensed with the puck, drop the lever and pull 20 pls through and it would sort it. do this each time


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

Thanks very much for your thoughts on this.

I do a few mini flushes (cleaning with espazzolla) to clean group after each shot & also rinse portafilter with a quick flush. But I only pull the lever part way down, not a full draw down. Would this be playing into it at all?

Interestingly, I don't have any trouble at all with this during the day; once machine has been initially turned on & fully heated, it maintains temperature just fine. The "stall" only occurs with that first thing in the morning heat up.?

What does "pls" stand for? (sorry, it's bound to be a dumb question!?)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Should be MLS! Pull the lever all way down. It is air in system from memory. I used to suffer as we, but even if it stalls, pull a flush and by the time you have prepared the shot it is a about ready


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Deidre said:


> I have been finding my Londinium doesn't warm up completely first thing in the morning (this is after sitting idle for a couple of hours), unless I do a few mini steam releases. Is this because of something I am doing the previous day (maybe my short cleaning flushes are introducing air into the system??), or is this quite normal?


 When you do your mini steam release, does the pressure drop a lot and then start rising again? If so check the vacuum breaker isn't sticking.

I say this because you only seem to have a problem on the first warm up of the day and releasing steam fixes it....the usual signs of a sticking vacuum breaker valve.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> When you do your mini steam release, does the pressure drop a lot and then start rising again? If so check the vacuum breaker isn't sticking.
> 
> I say this because you only seem to have a problem on the first warm up of the day and releasing steam fixes it....the usual signs of a sticking vacuum breaker valve.


 I will have to check tomorrow on how much the pressure drops (after starting up fresh). It doesn't lose significant amounts of pressure when I do mini-steam releases during the day. So, for example, right now it is sitting at 1.3, and when I do a mini steam release, it drops to just under 1 bar. However, I am not 100% sure about the early morning behaviour... there may well be a more significant drop, after I release it from 1.3 with a quick puff or two of steam... and now that I think about it, there may indeed be a more significant fall in pressure then. Interesting.

The other point is that this was not happening until this week, and I don't think I am doing anything different than I was before.??‍♀

Where is the vacuum breaker located? And, is there a way to lubricate it, need be?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

There won't be significant drops in your mini steam releases during the day. Only after the first one. You said only get the cool group problem until you do a steam purge after warmup and never after that. Classic sticking vacuum breaker symptoms. If it does it every morning, take the top off and check the vac breaker tomorrow before you turn it on.

Nothing about a steam purge can clear air in thermosyphons.

Vacuum breaker is best replaced unless you have a new Viton or FKM O ring the right size. I am sure a helpful L1 owner will post a photo identifying the vac breaker for you.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

Excellent, thank you for the info, and I shall definitely follow up on this.?

(Does it hurt anything to continue using machine until I get the problem resolved?)


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Deidre said:


> Excellent, thank you for the info, and I shall definitely follow up on this.?
> 
> (Does it hurt anything to continue using machine until I get the problem resolved?)


 If I'm right about it being a sticky vacuum breaker, it will be fine, just purge steam in the morning to get rid of any false pressure causing the pressurestat to click off early and at a lower than normal temp. Juist don't leave the steam wand sticking inside dirty water/cleaner at night when the machine goes off and make sure you purge the wand clean of everything after using. Lots of people (possibly most) use a steaming technique that causes milk to suck into the wand tip and if not purged out can cause contamination. it certainly makes more cleaning needed.

I have meant to do a video about it for years but keep forgetting....perhaps this Christmas I will get round to it.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The early l1's were infamous for stalling thermosyphons......pound to a penny that's what it is and yes, I have the same machine as yours


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

Good to hear this, and my fingers are crossed, hoping nothing complicated is involved. I will be assessing again on startup tomorrow morning, with fresh eyes, now that I have some insight & helpful comments from you both. I really appreciate the assistance, you two! Thank you, again.


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

I second @dfk41 comments. I also have the same machine. When put on a timer for the morning, if left alone it won't get up to full temp most times due to the thermosiphon stall. However, it just needs one flush and the group temp will rise to, in my case, between 85-86c. Once there, as long as you do a small flush post shot, which is good practice anyway, the temp will stay there all day without stalling.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> Sounds like the thermosyphon is stalling, which was quite normal on the early ones. All you need to do, is once you have pulled the shot and dispensed with the puck, drop the lever and pull 20 pls through and it would sort it. do this each time


 Lazarus is risen!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Obnic said:


> Lazarus is risen!


 Been a long four days though!


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Deidre, Londinium do also provide very good support so you can always try to get in touch with them if you needed more info but their was a topic on this a good few years back. If it's the anti vac valve (taken directly from this page

The description of the issue :

Hello everyone. I have had my L1 for about two years now and use it to pull 3 shots every morning. I absolutely love it, but recently (within the past 2-3 months) I've noticed that the grouphead is not heating up like it used to. I used to have the machine turning on (via a timer) at 4:30 AM, and it would be hot to the touch by the time I woke up at 5:00 AM. Now I have the machine turning on at 4:00 AM every morning and when I get up at 5:00 AM, the grouphead is cold to the touch.

After I pull my first shot (which always comes out really fast and runny and not good....) the grouphead seems to warm up, and shots 2 and 3 are fine. So I'm wondering if the thermosiphon is not cycling water through the grouphead until after I pull my first shot. Is that possible?



> i am thinking that perhaps the anti-vacuum valve is not functioning reliably, as this would account for the symptoms you report
> 
> you can test this idea in a number of ways. for example, if your machine is currently on you can unplug it and remove the top panel immediately: the anti-vac valve should at this time be in the 'up' (closed) position. come back to the machine after say 30 minutes and see if the anti-vac valve has dropped down into the 'open' position, as it should have by that time. if it has not then you have most likely found the cause. try pushing down on it and see if it is stuck up and you feel it let go and drop down and stay down when pressure is applied
> 
> ...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

DaveC is more than likely correct here, change the anti vac it's a consumable item over time.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

Thanks so very much!

It seems my problem does go beyond the thermosiphon cure, unfortunately. This morning's test was prolonged, and the machine was loathe to reach high enough temperatures for a successful shot. It did finally, after a couple of hours, with frequent steam releases, and will likely be fine for the day's remaining shots. Meanwhile, I will research the above (thank you @jlarkin) and see what I can accomplish!?? (Holiday timing couldn't be worse, of course!?‍♀)


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Deidre said:


> Thanks so very much!
> 
> It seems my problem does go beyond the thermosiphon cure, unfortunately. This morning's test was prolonged, and the machine was loathe to reach high enough temperatures for a successful shot. It did finally, after a couple of hours, with frequent steam releases, and will likely be fine for the day's remaining shots. Meanwhile, I will research the above (thank you @jlarkin) and see what I can accomplish!?? (Holiday timing couldn't be worse, of course!?‍♀)


 Deidre,

I have limited information to go on. Presumably you tried:

*Purging steam after it warmed up and that didn't help, or not a dramatic drop in pressure then a rise?*

*Opened the top after it cooled down to see if the vacuum breaker stalk was still in the closed position?*

I have to assume that perhaps you did and these were not the problem although it's hard for me to understand what's actually happening as I'm not in the room and you simply say won't get hot enough after frequent steam releases?

*You don't say at all what the boiler pressure is showing on the gauge when it doesn't warm up. Is it lower than normal, normal, higher than normal. *It could be (again guessing here because of a lack of clear information) that each time you purge you drop the pressure and then it rises and if there is a sticky diaphragm in the pressure stat, or a bad contact breaker, then this could cause the diaphragm to unstick or the contact breaker to open and close again and perhaps either unstick or connect depending on whether it's NO or NC. *So after a successful set of purges does the boiler pressure sit higher than before and everything is now hot enough?*

*You also say Likely be fine for the days remaining shots...always or mostly?*

If you don't understand how to answer my questions, or they seem a bit onerous, I understand but if you can answer them it's more likely people can give you some effective help. You could even put up a little vid of the gauge when you do purges to try and get it to heat.

I dont have photos of the inside of your londinium, but if you give a photo of the interior (top off), then I will identify the Vac breaker and pressurestat for you (plus I can see if you have a big Parker or smaller MA-TER stat).


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

> *Purging steam after it warmed up and that didn't help, or not a dramatic drop in pressure then a rise?*


 The first purge of steam causes the bar to drop from 1.3 bar to zero or 0.5 bar; thereafter, the steam releases drop far less, and after 2 or 3 of these mini-releases, the bar only drops from 1.3 to 1.0 and rises (on its own accord) to 1.3, and then continues to function normally (off at 1.3 and on at 1.0 is the normal on/off cycle)



> *Opened the top after it cooled down to see if the vacuum breaker stalk was still in the closed position?*


 I have not opened the top, nor tried to locate the vacuum breaker; that will be my next step. (I am not sure if I will know how to tell if the part is open or closed. Totally unfamiliar with what a vacuum breaker looks like or how it performs. But I shall learn!)

And, I will admit to being totally ignorant about the internal workings of machinery.



DavecUK said:


> You don't say at all what the boiler pressure is showing on the gauge when it doesn't warm up. Is it lower than normal, normal, higher than normal.


 The machine warms up, but not far enough.. falls short by about 20 degrees... until I release & build steam pressure a number of successive times.

Normally, when I turn the machine on, I usually have full steam pressure after about 15 minutes; then the machine takes another 45 minutes to reach optimum temperature.

Today, the machine was turned on, and boiler pressure climbed up & sat pretty close to 1.3 bar (maybe 1.2 bar) after about 15 minutes of warmup... pretty much same as usual....that hasn't changed. What does happen now, though, is that although the boiler pressure sits at the expected level initially, as soon as I notice the machine temp has stalled (and this is after an hour or two of warm up time), and isn't getting any hotter than say about 65C (on the group neck's surface), I release some steam to see if that helps, and right away the gauge drops dramatically to zero. That is not usual. Normally, a release of pressure doesn't cause the gauge to fall much below 1.0 bar. This week's unusual & big drop in boiler pressure after the first quick steam release, only happens with the first release, followed a little less of a drop on the next build & release of pressure, then once everything is heated to temp & stabilized-however long that may take-all performs normally.



> *"So after a successful set of purges does the boiler pressure sit higher than before and everything is now hot enough?"*


 After a set of purges, the boiler pressure sits where it always does (on at 1.0 and off at 1.3). And, yes, things do eventually get hot enough to pull shots. Thereafter, it Works just fine all day long, no problems. Very good shots consistently. Although I do think it is running just a wee bit cooler than usual (maybe 2 to 3 degrees?)

I will attempt a picture, and if you can identify the relevant part that would be most appreciated. Thank you for taking time on this!


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

does this show enough of the interior? (I also removed the pstat cover.)


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

sirai pstat


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Enlarging the photo of the P/stat, the centre part between the terminals looks as if it has been over heated (not






quite burnt) 

Look carefully at the section between the terminals and at the bar that runs across the front of the contacts (points) Both areas show discolouration.

Possibly heat from contacts ?

Look with a magnifying glass or blow up on monitor.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

It sounds like a cleaning with vinegar might be a temporary fix, at least until I can get a new part. (And, perhaps my rather soft water might be to blame for this getting into trouble in the first place? I now am adding baking soda to the tank, to counter the softness.)

I just need to get some correctly-sized tools and dig up a video how to take a vacuum breaker apart & reassemble.??

Hmmm, I wonder, could the vacuum breaker be cleaned "in place"... flushed with a vinegar solution, using a toothbrush & some vinegar on the relevant area (when machine is cold)??


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

El carajillo said:


> Enlarging the photo of the P/stat, the centre part between the terminals looks as if it has been over heated (not quite burnt)


 Really? Gosh, that doesn't sound good!

I don't see any sign of burning when I look, but what exactly does over-heated look like?

View attachment 34740


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

I can't see any sign of "burning" - looks identical to mine. Anti vacs are less than £10 direct from Londinium, I bought one and a new safety valve as spares should I need to replace.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I have identified all the parts for you. The vacuum breaker has a little pin in the centre that rises or falls. It rises to close when the water in the machines boiler starts to boil and opens after it cools below 100C. You need to remove it before cleaning *(do NOT remove the circlip until you have removed the whole pressurestat). *Your symptoms " after an hour or so opening steam tap and pressure dropping to almost 0 is classic sticky pressure stat symptom. As the machine is probably 4+ years old I would replace the pressuresstat anyway just to be sure and keep the existing one as a spare after cleaning it....you can also chase up a suitable Viton or FKM O ring to renew it (you remove the circlip to split it apart and clean it.)

For now you can try as a stop gap for Xmas, get machine up to temp, open steam valve to bleed off false pressure, wait until up to pressure again. Get wooden spoon and press in top pin of vacuum breaker for a second or 2, do this a few times. This can temporarily "steam" clean the valve seat enough for it to stop sticking for a while.

The other things you say, unless getting a little confusion could mean you have multiple faults e.g. there may be the thermosyphon lock syndrome for early L1s, although loooking at the design, I would think that that "well known" problem is actually not a feature, but a symptom of a leaky brew circuit, allowing air into the thermosyphon. Normally caused by a requirement to change the seals in the valve activated by lowering the lever to bring water into the group. *Again if the machine is any age, it's probably worth changing those inexpensive components*

The final fault could be the pressurestat, but those Sirai units are very robust and can last more than a decade, would usually only give a problem with the diaphragm if used in Very hard water. The breakers actually look fine....At the moment I would discount the Sirai as the cause at this time.

*So new vacuum breaker and new group valve seals for the bit that lets the water into the group....Not the big seals on the piston, these are little seals. Shouldn't cost more than £15 and see you right for the next 4 or 5 years.*


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> I have meant to do a video about it for years but keep forgetting....perhaps this Christmas I will get round to it.


 Yes, It would be good to see an action video! I only assume I clean well, purging the tip (& wiping the wand & tip well with a wet cloth) after steaming the milk; & never leave the wand in a jug to soak!? But as to whether my technique draws milk up into the steam arm, and I've got more hidden trouble, I don't know. ? I do unscrew the tip frequently & scrape-clean off the ring of milk that adheres to the tiny gasket.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> I have identified all the parts for you. The vacuum breaker has a little pin in the centre that rises or falls. It rises to close when the water in the machines boiler starts to boil and opens after it cools below 100C. You need to remove it before cleaning *(do NOT remove the circlip until you have removed the whole pressurestat). *Your symptoms " after an hour or so opening steam tap and pressure dropping to almost 0 is classic sticky pressure stat symptom. As the machine is probably 4+ years old I would replace the pressuresstat anyway just to be sure and keep the existing one as a spare after cleaning it....you can also chase up a suitable Viton or FKM O ring to renew it (you remove the circlip to split it apart and clean it.)
> 
> For now you can try as a stop gap for Xmas, get machine up to temp, open steam valve to bleed off false pressure, wait until up to pressure again. Get wooden spoon and press in top pin of vacuum breaker for a second or 2, do this a few times. This can temporarily "steam" clean the valve seat enough for it to stop sticking for a while.
> 
> ...


 This is excellent information and clear, I thank you! Greatly appreciated! I will employ the stop-gap measure you have suggested, holding me over for the holiday season, and order the new parts thereafter.

(The machine is about 7 years old, and only been used with naturally soft water supply, so no hard water issues.)


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

Wow, just did the wooden spoon trick... puff, puff! Neat! Just emitted puffs off dry steam though, nothing wet evident & doesn't feel sticky when it moves up & down, but we'll see tomorrow on start up what happens.☺ Thanks again!


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

@DavecUK Just one further clarification, if I may? Those small "group valve" seals you refer to. Are they shown in this parts kit, pictured below, and if so, would you point them out for me please? (I am familiar with the 3 piston seals & the seal that fits on the top of the shower screen, but those are not what you are referring to, if I've understood correctly? (I gather the small ones are accessed inside the group chamber, once the piston is removed??)


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I'm more familiar with the San Marco Style group but those 2 green ones and the two next to them look likely suspects.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

Great, and thank you, again!


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Check where the pink / red cable connects to the white component at the side of the P /stat, it is showing signs of over heating / burning


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

if you go onto here

londiniumespresso.com

and firstly join it, then you will be able to contact Reiss directly who will help you. Bear in mind he designed the machine I suspect he will be very accurate in diagnosing, or alternately, ask @coffeechap


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

dfk41 said:


> if you go onto here
> 
> londiniumespresso.com
> 
> and firstly join it, then you will be able to contact Reiss directly who will help you. Bear in mind he designed the machine I suspect he will be very accurate in diagnosing, or alternately, ask @coffeechap


 Thank you! Wise advice. Will do!


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

El carajillo said:


> Check where the pink / red cable connects to the white component at the side of the P /stat, it is showing signs of over heating / burning


 Try as I might, I'm not seeing anything burnt... it might be bad lighting in that photo that is misleading, due to my very poor photography skills??!?‍♀


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

he is talking about the part identified by an arrow. Could be a loose crimp or bad connection on the spade connector...or perhaps something in the component. Not knowing the intimate details of a Londinium, I am not sure what that component is...a switch perhaps?

Oh and check those valve seats that let the water in the group. On the La San Marco groups they are white teflon seals....it might be that the Bosco style uses those little green ones.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

Oh, I see the area now! (I was focussing in on the "box" itself, a case of didn't-see-the-forest-for-the-trees!?) Thanks, will check this out further!


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

I had this exact problem about 6 months ago. Which if I've understood correctly, the group does not heat up to full temperature without a flush. Thereafter, it stays hot. The solution was not obvious. It was not the anti vac valve or anything electrical. It was the group seals, even though they were working fine with regards to pulling a shot. When the machine was left to cool the seals allowed air to enter into the thermosiphon circuit. Replacing the seals cured the problem completely.


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## smurray06 (Oct 9, 2017)

NickR said:


> I had this exact problem about 6 months ago. Which if I've understood correctly, the group does not heat up to full temperature without a flush. Thereafter, it stays hot. The solution was not obvious. It was not the anti vac valve or anything electrical. It was the group seals, even though they were working fine with regards to pulling a shot. When the machine was left to cool the seals allowed air to enter into the thermosiphon circuit. Replacing the seals cured the problem completely.


 Hi Nick,

Resurrecting a thread here but I am having the exact issues described here. Group will not warm up without a flush in the morning. Changed the anti vac and piston seals to no avail.

Which seals did you change? Is it the two that are on the group sleeve?

Thanks,

Simon


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

Yes I mean "piston seals". The fact that you have done this to no avail is odd, my machine has never had a re occurrence of the fault since replacing them over two years ago.


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