# London-based lever tech?



## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

I'm thinking about getting a lever machine. (Profitec/Leva/Vostock/londinium) & Keen to try and do some of the maintenance/repairs myself as needed but would like to know if there was a bail out option. Having had huge problems and expense shipping a duetto dual boiler machine out for repair I would be keen to find out if there were any local options?

previous experience was that nobody is interested in servicing domestic machines as their focus is commercial machines


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

https://espressoclinic.com/

I remembered!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

TomR said:


> I'm thinking about getting a lever machine. (Profitec/Leva/Vostock/londinium) & Keen to try and do some of the maintenance/repairs myself as needed but would like to know if there was a bail out option.


 That's quite a varied list with the LM Leva at the stratospheric end. Londiniums are easy to service as will be the Vostok when it is finally released. Profitech is probably the least high tech on the list - single boiler - dipper design whereas definitely the Londinium and Vostok don't require a warm up shot after being left idle for any length of time. No experience of the Leva but am guessing would be same with than. General maintenance with levers is pretty straightforward and doesn't entail much effort or skill.


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## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

Londinium is set up for home repairs with Reiss the owner and designer very happy to provide guidance and loads of how to guides on the website. The panels all come off so access is pretty straight forward. I suspect most levers are pretty easy to maintain if you are willing to learn how and prepared to give it a go


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## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

Thanks both

its the Izzo alex leva not the LM im looking at! Pretty simple dipper design

the easy access / reiss-guided servicing of londoniums is attractive. Its the compressa im most interested in if i can make the plumbing work ( low ish water pressure here - 2 bars - plus london hard water)


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## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

I think all the simple levers are about the same for reliability, and use very similar tech. Spent ages looking across all the forums and good feedback about all of them. If you check the users of the home barista forums who commented on izzo leva, and profitec when it came out in 2015 - a good portion of them are still posting and have pointed out that they have used for 5+years without problems... I'd guess a similar story with londinium. The lower the number of components, the greater the reliability. Compressa/izzo leva/profitech are all single boilers so half the stuff of a dual boiler. They can/do all work without needing even a pump! No 3-way solenoids/back flushing/etc. The main problems I read of where DOA issues related to couriers. I think more of a problem (remembering London living is the water). I'd consider osmio or equivalent.

Another factor is overall parts cost, and potentially resale value. Leva & compressa is plumb only (restricts things if you think you may sell in the future). Profitec has a tank (so easier to sell on). R24 is somewhat more expensive and at that point I would be comparing to e.g. decent and/or bring in the Vostok which is cheaper, with more functionality (gadget/risk of parts failure/etc). That said lever dual boiler is still simpler than e61 equivalent (a bit at least). The problems I have had were all service/steam boiler related, and I think this is common..

All that said I'm a hypocrite as I started with a plan of finding a machine for life with minimal parts to fail, then put deposit down for Vostok. Pretty sure I'll be fine, as there are points to offset this (stainless steel boilers, eco mode that disables steam boiler by default with 1-touch on screen to wake/heat), although I'm now trying to squeeze osmosis device into the kitchen somehow which is a challenge in itself (I have a 10cm space/gap behind fridge)..

So really I'd say first choose between simple & reliability (compressa, leva, p800) Vs expensive &/or more complicated (Vostok & r24) ...

Aso worth noting if opting for londinium of any type - there is a note on their blog that all machines and parts going up on 1st April (not seen an increase yet, but if tempted I'd move fast. Seeing this made me decide definitely no as quite a lot of price rises with r24 and now. Another viewpoint wound be that your machine would be worth more instantly so easier to resell )


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## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

Thanks agsin Daniel

sounds like we making a similar decision

 im looking for simplicity and longevity

re vostok. Im not sure the DB will make the group temp any more stable than single boiler dippers , although heating cartridges MIGHT, and rapid heat up is a big plus. Plus all those versuvius electronics. Seems intriguing but too much unknown

lr24 also has a lot of electronics and is a lot more money. Interesting intelligence re price increase

but sorting a good quality mains water feed in london seems harder than id hoped

there seems a possible view that the LSM group is more forgiving than the 58mm lever groups (deeper pucks i do believe extract more evenly, hence the trickiness of low dose baskets) - otherwise i think id just get a profitec 800

cheers all


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Jollybean said:


> Londinium is set up for home repairs with Reiss the owner and designer very happy to provide guidance and loads of how to guides on the website. The panels all come off so access is pretty straight forward. I suspect most levers are pretty easy to maintain if you are willing to learn how and prepared to give it a go


 Cost of spares from Londinium is absolutely stupidly and unnecessarily expensive though! Vostok has 1 lever piston seal......how many does the Londinium have and how much are they!

https://londiniumespresso.com/store/parts?product_id=186&limit=75

Thats each by the way, then there is delivery and a small bonus of vat!


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@dfk41 which bits are expensive??

I thought most of the readily available spares are really well priced.


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

dfk41 said:


> Cost of spares from Londinium is absolutely stupidly and unnecessarily expensive though! Vostok has 1 lever piston seal......how many does the Londinium have and how much are they!
> 
> https://londiniumespresso.com/store/parts?product_id=186&limit=75
> 
> Thats each by the way, then there is delivery and a small bonus of vat!


 Yes it's a lot of money for a seal. But considering my machine is over 2 years old and the seals are only now getting to the point of needing to be changed, I wouldn't class the maintenance as expensive by any means.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

£30 worth of seals on a £3k machine, my heart bleeds 🤣

You can buy the cafelet silicone seal kit, same price,

Or you can buy copy seals for less but there crap quality.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> £30 worth of seals on a £3k machine, my heart bleeds 🤣
> 
> You can buy the cafelet silicone seal kit, same price,
> 
> Or you can buy copy seals for less but there crap quality.


 Well, on that point we will agree to differ! Nearly £40 for 3 seals! What happens if you do not have a 3k machine but say one of the first models worth a lot less? How do you know the usual seals used on tens of thousands of non Londnium levers that share the cheaper fiorenzato group are inferior? Having had many Londiniums, I have tried standard seals, Cafelat seals and the latest itinerant and if I am being truthful, find the standard seals away and by far the best. Cafelat I did not get on with (good group seals though). The frequency with which the pistons seals need changed depends on usage so for some this might be annually, for other bi-annually. There its no reason for the current seals to be the price they are, in my view. I find Londinium, and anything they provide, right down to the charge for delivery's, exorbitant


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Even £40 for the seals on my machine which was £1300 used isnt a lot, really in the grand scheme. Although i agree the shipping is crap,

The non gen seals that came with mine were no good.

These cafelet have been fine since.

I like the fact that most if not all parts are available and listed, and accessible. Which is more than can be said for a lot of machines.

You just dont like the owner 🤣


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> You just dont like the owner 🤣


 I have nothing against you Jake! But, since you are the current knight on a white Londinium charger, can you explain to me exactly what makes the londinium seals so much better. I mean, this is a bog standard lever group. Londinium as far as I know, have had no influence on its design, but they choose to use it. I would hazard a guess that there are thousands more of these groups fitted to lever machines that do not bear the Londinium monicker, than do......so, exactly why do they need to design their own seal to fit a bog standard part at many times the price


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## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

I'm in the same boat as you. £40 for seals every one or two years does not factor high in my selection criteria but others may have a different view


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@dfk41 i never said they were better, i stated they were better than the ones that came with my used machine.. ones for the generic group.

Like i say i went silicone for longevity,

As for the white knight not really mines an 8 yr old machine, hardly a new model. Sadly we cant all afford to chuck crazy money at machines some of us just make do🤣


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Cuprajake I am struggling to follow your logic matey. You told us that you did not consider the cost of the seals through Londinium to be expensive, therefore sticking up for them. Then you go on to tell us you have the Cafelat seals which are about the same price. Why did you not plump for the pukka Londinium ones if you think they are so good?

I asked you to explain to me, why a Londinium that uses a bog standard group feels the need to design and supply seals at many times the price of the ordinary offerings. Do other users of the Fiorenzato group miss out by using standard seals?

Lastly, who is chucking crazy money at machines? If you are inferring that I am by buying a Vostok, may I remind you that it is over £1000 cheaper than the current LR24 and that is before the yet to be announced price rises Londinium feel need to be brought in


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## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

TomR said:


> I'm thinking about getting a lever machine. (Profitec/Leva/Vostock/londinium) & Keen to try and do some of the maintenance/repairs myself as needed but would like to know if there was a bail out option. Having had huge problems and expense shipping a duetto dual boiler machine out for repair I would be keen to find out if there were any local options?
> 
> previous experience was that nobody is interested in servicing domestic machines as their focus is commercial machines


 Doctor Espresso | A place where the past meets the future with great coffee!

The guy has an amazing old lever collection as well.


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## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

Cool

thanks


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## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

TomR said:


> Cool
> 
> thanks


 Did you come to any conclusions? There seem to be quite a few of us at various stages of the same decision.


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## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

Izzo Alex Leva ordered from black cat

i like the look of the san marco group more than the bosco type one plus wanted maximal simplicity

im using a cafelat robot in the mean time. After all ive learned from a year of De1+ analysis im actually making better espresso than ever before

makes me wonder why i want a big machine at all

i nearly hung on for the legendary londinium compact. Maybe for work...

have you gone for the Vostok?


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## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

TomR said:


> Izzo Alex Leva ordered from black cat
> 
> i like the look of the san marco group more than the bosco type one plus wanted maximal simplicity
> 
> ...


 Yes Vostok waiting list for me. Was a knife-edge type decision between leva and Vostok. Comitted now and whilst I'm jealous you'll get quicker and it's a lovely built/looking machine (did you add the bling/joysticks&wood?) - I think I still made the right decision for me. whilst the p800 and compressa were in the running, I was sold on the group (which cut them first) so a choice between Alex leva and vostok.

Main choice defining the final decision between the two was/is the ability to tweak a few things - I.e. the PID and manometer. I don't want major adjustment like decent, but the Vostok should provide a more tweak-ability without delving down a rabbit hole. We drink a lot of decaff, and then a random bean that rotates in small quantities. So simple workflow based around niche and a setting for either decaff (I think may benefit from slightly lower temp/pressure) or caff. Last of all, living in Cornwall which is relatively remote and makes swapping/selling/upgrading later difficult - added a bit of pressure to cover all bases in one go.

make sure you post some pics when it arrives!


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