# Commercial machine 300-600 GBP?



## ChrisQP09 (Apr 6, 2016)

Hey guys,

Having sold my Jura S9, I'm looking a used 2 group commercial machine. Is my budget too optimistic for a good quality unit?

Also are all commercial machines water mains operated as I would like a plug and play operation.

Any help is much appreciated.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Ebay, 2nd hand gaggias and the likes can be nabbed for that area, but be prepared to put work in, lots of it.


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## ChrisQP09 (Apr 6, 2016)

froggystyle said:


> Ebay, 2nd hand gaggias and the likes can be nabbed for that area, but be prepared to put work in, lots of it.


Thanks, as in maintenance? I was also thinking of a La Pavoni lever machine?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

As in the chances you may need to strip it down and deep clean.

La Pavs can be had for less than £300 if you want to do some work, decent ones a bit more though.


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## ChrisQP09 (Apr 6, 2016)

To be honest, I know its not mega bucks I'm spending but don't really want to get dirty on the off. Would a new la pav give any problems?


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Bit of a jump between a la pav and a 2 group commercial ..... The former can make 2 drinks before over heating, the latter will have a 7ltr boiler take a day to warm up and drink electricity like it's going out of fashion

I would never use s comercial in a home environment as for the money you could get a better prosumer .... And you could never use a la pav in a comercial environment unless you only had 1 customer

what is it you require ?


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## ChrisQP09 (Apr 6, 2016)

My next machine will be for home, pulling no more than 6 shots a day. I like the design of both a commercial 2 group and a lever piece yet understand each are distinctly different.

Having looked at some options, I'm looking at a La Cimbali M31 and Cadet grinder, with the prospect of buying at 650 (for both).


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

I think you will be shocked at how expensive a 2 group commercial machine is to run in the home and how long you are going to need to have it on for to get up to temperature ( and also how big they are)

I have a Faema E98 president that am re building (...eventually) has a 5Kw heating element requiring a cooker feed to run and an 11L boiler taking a good hour to get up to stable temperature. If I were to use this to produce 6 cups of coffee a day, would need to run this all day at a horrendous cost.

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/buying-a-used-commercial-machine has some useful information if you really still heart set on a commercial machine.

For the record i only fire up the E98 when lots of people round and I do mean lots otherwise I run a Conti cc-100 1 group lever ( commercial machine) which has a 5L boiler which keeps our eletricity supplier no doubt in the manner they wish to become accustomed to.

Hope of help

John


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## billt (Jul 10, 2013)

johnealey said:


> I think you will be shocked at how expensive a 2 group commercial machine is to run in the home and how long you are going to need to have it on for to get up to temperature ( and also how big they are)


Can't argue about the size, but they aren't that expensive to run (in the context of the ludicrous amounts of money some people spend on coffee gear).

I have an Iberital L'Adri 1 group, 6l boiler. It consumed about 3kWhr a day, or 36p worth of electricity (on from 06:00 to 22:00). It took about 30 minutes to get up to useable temperature.

I've just bought a "prosumer" lever, which, in my naivete, I thought would use less power. It takes 20 minutes to get to a usable temperature, so it also has to be on all day. It's only has a miserable 2l boiler, but still consumes 2.5kWhr a day. An enormous saving of 6p a day over the commercial machine. A 2 group may use a bit more power than a 1 group, but it won't be a great deal more.

At 6 cups a day that's 6p a cup for power. Decent coffee is likely to be about 25p a cup.


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## ChrisQP09 (Apr 6, 2016)

Thanks for the input guys, If not fully commercial I wouldn't be comfortable spending more than 450. What would you recommend for 450 (Machine & Grinder)?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

I am confused. Why 2 group if for home?


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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

A La Spaziale Vivaldi II looks like a commercial machine in style is awesome and only one group. It is commercial grade. If U were lucky u might get one second hand in your budget.. I'm using one at monad staying with friends and it has reminded me how great they are... Easy to use with great results...


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

One of my prior ideas to a buying a Prosumer Machine was to do exactly what you intend and buy a commercial machine. I even had a friend who have a 2 group Cimbali sat in his garage from a defunct cafe and was willing to sell for £300. I then did the research into the whole refurb and maintenance side of things as I thought it should be no problems to do this (given I am a fully trained boiler/combustion energy gen engineer). I even rang up a Company that provide a managed contract maintenance service to cafes to ask about the maintenance cost of a commercial machine like the Cimbali. My learnings were:

Commercial machines are often overkill on the parts like seals, valves and fuses given the amount of usage they go through and the fail safes they have added into the design. Therefore if you have to refurb one (especially one that has sat around not being used for a while) you need to allow a budget for replacement of these ancilliaries as a starting point (bang goes the original max £450 budget).

It will need to be plumbed in and if you wish to keep it clean, it will need a multi filter water purified input (so add on more money to budget).

This is a larger and more powerful pressurised vessel than you would normally have in the domestic environment so it will take up a lot more space (not made for standard kitchen parameters), weigh a lot more (check the units you sit it on) and consume much more energy and water than you will expect (don't do this if you are on a water or electricity meter) - so you need to account for additional costs to running.

These machines do not warm up quick - first thing a cafe owner does in the morning is turn the machines on to allow a hour for full filling and warm up.

Taking all of this into account against my paltry 4-6 shots a day average requirement, I decided I did not need a mighty large sledge hammer to crack my little nut of a coffee habit.


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## ChrisQP09 (Apr 6, 2016)

Again, thank you for the comments guys. I primarily want a commercial due to their presence in my home but secondly because the coffee would be a natural upgrade from my Jura s9. However, if I can extract the same or similar coffee from a 1 group machine and decent grinder, then I may go this route.

Electricity isn't a problem as I run a multi monitor flight simulator, however expensive and potentially on going maintenance from the outset would be. If I could be somewhat assured that a commercial 2 group at a decent price could be ran for a year or so without a problem, I'll cross the maintenance bridge when I come to it.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Gotta be honest i am struggling to see why you still want a commercial machine, you say presence, but a decent prosumer machine has more presence for me, apart from size.

I also cant see why it must be 2 group?

And any machine, whether a commercial 1/2 group or dual boiler/HX prosumer machine will be very different from your Jura....

Each to thier own and all that, but i would really suggest you think long and hard.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

The only thing a consumer unit will give you over a decent prosumer unit is the ability to make hundreds of shots a day without breaking down ... Having 2 groups makes no difference to the coffee, it just allows 2 shots to be made at the same time.

if you buy a decent prosumer you will be getting all the reliability of a comercial but in an attractive box, that is more convenient for home use in heat up time, easier and cheaper to maintain and in a lot of cases will produce a better coffee due to designed stability for domestic use ... And a lot come with more features

i asume that you want to make coffee as good as you get in coffee shops that have 2 group machines ???? ..... That's easily achievable and eclipsed by a decent home set up, fresh artisan beans and a procedure that uses decent water and a followed coffee:water ratio.


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## ChrisQP09 (Apr 6, 2016)

I apologise for not being clearer. The core rationale behind a commercial 2 group machine is:

1) Retain it's value after a year (If I last that long, I get bored quickly)

2) I can be a little eccentric at times, often resulting in me buying equipment which is more than and not relative to what I need. The logic here is, if I need additional capacity, Its on tap (Practically speaking with a tad of wishful thinking). To further this, I'm the guy who likes to sit and look at a cabinet full of expensive whisky rather than drink it, but If I fancy a dram of 25 year old Macallan, its there and its a great talking point when family and friends are round.

3) I spend a small fortune in boutique coffee shops anyway, however this is a cost I'll waive if I have the capacity and capital asset at home.

I admit, my thinking has been somewhat naive and my budget probably too low, although I often take calculated risks and perhaps the commercial 2 group is one too high.

Furthermore, I fully understand that the grouping does not influence or dictate the coffee. With reference to the La Pav and a commercial 2 group, I liken this to the hands on involvement of driving a 911 to a more reliable but no less worthy S class Mercedes. The differences are night and day in some respects but the net result or objective remains the same, to pull a lovely shot or lass


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## scottgough (Feb 9, 2016)

I get all the above. Until it's linked to a £300-£600 budget, at which point it falls apart.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

So this statement,

1) Retain it's value after a year *(If I last that long, I get bored quickly)*

Means you will get bored half way the restoration, because at that price it will more than likely need one.

Plus the money you will spend will mean you might not ever get back what you paid...


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

scottgough said:


> I get all the above. Until it's linked to a £300-£600 budget, at which point it falls apart.


Me too........


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Taking 25 year old whiskey, Porsche 911 and S class Mercs, then cap a budget of £600? Something's amiss here.

*****Quick Mill Verona*****

*****Bassilia RR55 soon to be Mythos*****


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

You can get a decent prosumer machine for home for £600 (second hand).

You can not get a decent commercial machine for that money, so personally i wouldn't bother.

A prosumer machine at £600 will likely (almost certainly) make better coffee, easier than a commercial unit.

You do not need a 2 group machine.

While I admire the enthusiasm, which I probably share (i too ask a lot from this forum at times), if you buy the 2 group commercial machine for home, make sure you buy a picture of a donut. In the bathroom, replace the mirror with said picture.

That said, sod it. Buy the machine and experience it. Maybe it is what you're after. All our tastes are different.

Just make sure you post in the thread 'my new setup' (so we can see it) and in the 'what did the postie bring today' thread too, ideally with a picture of said postman.

You get bonus points for getting the machine and mounting it in the 911 - of which we also want a picture.


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## ChrisQP09 (Apr 6, 2016)

Jason1wood said:


> Taking 25 year old whiskey, Porsche 911 and S class Mercs, then cap a budget of £600? Something's amiss here.
> 
> *****Quick Mill Verona*****
> 
> *****Bassilia RR55 soon to be Mythos*****


Nothing missing, unless you're seeking reasons to dismiss what is essentially one's view. I made a comparison which, without being an expert, I don't feel is too inaccurate. To be fair, I spend my money on a lot of different items, some expensive, others not so much. I came to the forum to seek advice, I admitted to the budget probably not being the most accurate reflection of the value/longevity of these machines.

If I placed a higher 'perceived' value on my coffee and wanted to invest more in achieving the perfect shot, then maybe I would stretch as much as 2-4k. The problem with this however, is even with this budget it may not be sufficient enough to satisfy snobbery.


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## ChrisQP09 (Apr 6, 2016)

Thanks to the helpful posters, but being on a number of many forums (Maserati, Land Rover etc, google my username), I don't like the general negativity that surrounds this one.

EDIT: I think I'll stay, I believe there are many genuine posters not wishing to flame or troll.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I guess you mean keyboard warriors?

You ask a question on a forum and don't like the answers given so say its a negative forum...

I'll bow out now and say good luck with your choice.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

I've not experienced any snobbery, my budget was/ is tiny and I found people super willing to help me find what will work for me.

That is all I see on this thread. People trying to suggest how to get the best for your money.

Perhaps a little incredulity that you would spend more on a car than a coffee machine but that was likely a joke...


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Ooh that reminds me ... Must post on the Maserati forum and ask if I can pick up a MC12 for £6k .... It's a first car for my daughter to learn to drive in and can use to get back and forth to the velodrome with her bike thrown inside

update: pah, what a negative bunch the Maserati guys are, they suggested a Ford C-Max


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## ChrisQP09 (Apr 6, 2016)

h1udd said:


> Ooh that reminds me ... Must post on the Maserati forum and ask if I can pick up a MC12 for £6k .... It's a first car for my daughter to learn to drive in and can use to get back and forth to the velodrome with her bike thrown inside
> 
> update: pah, what a negative bunch the Maserati guys are, they suggested a Ford C-Max


Enzo chassis, hardly worth it









Honestly though there is a nice way to word responses and a bad way, I guess I got the wrong end of the wood.

PS: Just bought a Silvia V3 and Mazzer Luigi SJ


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

ChrisQP09 if it's any consolation I know where you're coming from but a slightly deeper pocket may be an advantage


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## ChrisQP09 (Apr 6, 2016)

dwalsh1 said:


> ChrisQP09 if it's any consolation I know where you're coming from but a slightly deeper pocket may be an advantage


I know, my pockets are just busy elsewhere. I've no doubt that once I get into the whole hand crafted espresso thing, I'll spend the extra and get the dog's bollocks. Nothing wrong with going for a brisk walk before the sprint haha


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

I wasn't having a go, I was just pointing out that your budget and choices were a little off. Would've been easier coming on and asking what others thought would be a good setup for your budget.

To be honest, my single group and grinder could pull just a good a shot as a 2group consumer machine.

It's out your budget, but coming straight in asking for a 2 group or a La Pav just sounded like there was no research in your question

*****Quick Mill Verona*****

*****Bassilia RR55 soon to be Mythos*****


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## ChrisQP09 (Apr 6, 2016)

Jason1wood said:


> I wasn't having a go, I was just pointing out that your budget and choices were a little off. Would've been easier coming on and asking what others thought would be a good setup for your budget.
> 
> To be honest, my single group and grinder could pull just a good a shot as a 2group consumer machine.
> 
> ...


Yes I can see that's probably how it looked, and if the shoe were on the other foot, I might have responded the same way.

I've said purchased a Silvia V3 and Mazzer Luigi SJ. Both items are used but in excellent condition and cost 490 GBP + 20 postage. I'm currently using Lavazza espresso beans (Black bag), would you rate these for a quality crema once grinded (not sure if they contain robusta).


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Fresh beans will blow your mind. Lots of recommended suppliers in the forum


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Next discussion point - don't get hung up about crema; essentially it tastes like ass. I've seen a couple of mentions of lavazza but not many people using them really. It's primarily about the fresh roasted beanses around these parts.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

ChrisQP09 said:


> I'm currently using Lavazza espresso beans (Black bag), would you rate these for a quality crema once grinded


crema, possibly.

taste, (this wasnt your question) ...no

Not knowing anything about your taste, so speculating toward novice experience, I would see if there is a roaster near you. Some make coffee on site. See what they have that suits your taste, then buy some to take home.

Some great coffee costs just £5 or less for 250g

Lavazza is around £3.50 and is awful (just one persons opinion).


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think a point which has not come over, is that a a commercial used in a commercial premises will probably have had the guts kicked out of it. In a cafe, it is quite normal to have a front end service 6 monthly and a full strip down annually. These are expensive to do but it matters not because the machine is paying for itself. The chances of finding a decent 2 group commercial that does not need a strip down and service whilst not impossible is remote.

A Prosumer type machine, is not designed to be on 24/7, pulling hundreds of shots prepay, but, it is designed to make very good cups within the home environment. For £600, you are just about able to buy a well looked after machine, possibly from a forum member. The grinder is a whole different topic.Ideally, you want to spend as much on a grinder as you do on a machine. If your brief is bad coffee well, then plough on the route you are taking. Many people, in their own way are trying to tell you this without curbing your enthusiasm. Go onto Ebay and you will find dozens of 2 groups. They do not hold their value as on the whole, there is no requirement. Good luck!


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## ChrisQP09 (Apr 6, 2016)

I visit Italy 4/5 times per year to see family. My principle motivation is actually the lure of the really 'thick' dark and rich caffe' (espresso). Forgive my ignorance but I thought this was achieved through an excellent crema. If I wish to attempt replicating this style of coffee, are fresh beans my best bet?


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## drude (Apr 22, 2013)

Fresh are always your best bet - would you ever choose stale bread over fresh for a sandwich?

I'm not a fan of the Italian style of coffee but you might enjoy this - https://ravecoffee.co.uk/products/the-italian-job-blend

Rave are just one of the many excellent roasters that will send you beans that will blow Lavazza out of the water


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## ChrisQP09 (Apr 6, 2016)

drude said:


> Fresh are always your best bet - would you ever choose stale bread over fresh for a sandwich?
> 
> I'm not a fan of the Italian style of coffee but you might enjoy this - https://ravecoffee.co.uk/products/the-italian-job-blend
> 
> Rave are just one of the many excellent roasters that will send you beans that will blow Lavazza out of the water


Thanks looks like a top site. On a side note, I just seen the OPV mod on the Gaggia Classic and it appears to make an improvement.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

ChrisQP09 said:


> I visit Italy 4/5 times per year to see family. My principle motivation is actually the lure of the really 'thick' dark and rich caffe' (espresso). Forgive my ignorance but I thought this was achieved through an excellent crema. If I wish to attempt replicating this style of coffee, are fresh beans my best bet?


I see you've bought a Silvia etc. I was going to suggest looking for a Bosco Sorento, you might find one knocking around Italy you could bring back. Though I've no idea how much they go for (pretty sure it was around your budget). I seem to think @coffeechap bought one ages ago. It would certainly be a talking point.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

ChrisQP09 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Having sold my Jura S9, I'm looking a used 2 group commercial machine. Is my budget too optimistic for a good quality unit?
> 
> ...


Here you go. Few quid left for a service and some parts: http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=301922477006&globalID=EBAY-GB&alt=web


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Rhys said:


> I see you've bought a Silvia etc. I was going to suggest looking for a Bosco Sorento, you might find one knocking around Italy you could bring back. Though I've no idea how much they go for (pretty sure it was around your budget). I seem to think @coffeechap bought one ages ago. It would certainly be a talking point.


Op would be very lucky to get a sorento in the budget, minimum would be over £1000 there is a guy down south near Napoli that refurbs them.


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## ChrisQP09 (Apr 6, 2016)

I love the idea of a lever piece but it seems they are rather difficult to work correctly. There again, where manual is concerned so many variables need to be just right.


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## billt (Jul 10, 2013)

That seems to depend on the type of lever machine (assuming you've got the strength to operate the lever that is!)

The small closed boiler type like the la Pavoni over heat after a while, but bigger spring levers should be temperature stable and they should be no more difficult to use than a pump machine.

The old open boiler type are also supposed to be reasonably temperature stable, but they are not made any more.


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