# Sage Dual Boiler vs. Lelit Mara X vs. Other options



## benoit3000 (Apr 14, 2020)

Hi all,

New machine time for me and would appreciate some advice please...

I'm aware there are other threads on this forum re. the Sage Dual Boiler pros and cons - but many seem 4 or 5+ years old and wondered whether new products on the market in 2020 change the debate at all, so hence starting a new post.

History - been getting into home espresso for 3-4 years. Currently got a trusty Sage Duo Temp Pro which has served me very well. It's still running fine, I'm just keen to upgrade for three main reasons:

1) making more than 1 milk based drink with the DTP takes a while

2) having a few more settings to experiment with to deepen my journey into the rabbit hole world of home espresso and take my level from 'beginner' to 'intermediate'

3) moving from 54mm to 58mm PF to give me more options for accessories/modding (and better workflow from Niche cup)

Budget - don't want to spend more than £1000 (even though the Bianca looks tasty but 1800 probs out of range)

Drinks - espressos and milk based

Grinder - I have a Niche

Options - from a bit of research I've narrowed down so far to Sage DB and the Lelit Mara X. I like all the functionality the Sage offers for the price (and the ability to adjust settings or leave defaults on)...just read a lot of concerns about SDB reliability and total cost of ownership once out of warranty which are scaring me off the SDB a little. Don't want to find myself constantly servicing the thing or having to shell out for a new toy 3-4 years' time.

Lelit on the other hand has good reviews, seems solid and more options to fix manually if something goes wrong - plus never owned a Lelit or E61 and heard some good things about this style of machine. Although have read the Lelit needs a good 20-25mins to warm up which will be a new habit to get into (I understand a smart plug could help address this though). It also doesn't have as many adjustable features as the SDB so perhaps a bit less involvement in pulling the shots.

Lastly, the SDB seems hard to get hold of at the moment - spoke to a Sage guy and he said many retailers are now stocking the Oracles over DBs as a lot of customers prefer the grinder built in. Making tracking an SDB down a bit harder at the moment.

Imagine someone might suggest buying second hand with this budget but id be worried if something went wrong...happy to be convinced otherwise though.

Any thoughts from this forum gratefully received on these two machines... or anything else worth considering at the £1k budget. Might try to bag a Black Friday offer if I've decided in time.

Many thanks,

Chris


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

A number of very knowledgeable members have the DB and enjoy it. As I understand it, the performance of Sage machines is excellent.

The reliability is up for debate though and some people have been rather unlucky. Others say they are no more prone to failure than anything else on the market.

What is not up for debate though is the access to parts, technical drawing and people happy to work on them. It is much more like an appliance than an espresso machine ie costly and tightly controlled. For this reason alone I would suggest they are avoided.

The Mara X is the forum darling at the moment. Personally I haven't used one extensively and I am not sure I am fully on board with the brew priority feature. That is very much down to how you use the machine though of course. DaveCUK is a big fan and I respect his opinion greatly so out of those two, the Mara X!

David


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

benoit3000 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> New machine time for me and would appreciate some advice please...
> 
> ...


 I'm currently debating similar upgrade options (coming from a barista pro) to you and have decided against buying a sage DB due to reliability concerns and cost/ease of repair. Although the Sage DB is available directly from sage in black truffle, discounted to £900 with the code available on here.

The MaraX does look appealing to me as well but I'm not yet sure it's ideal for making consecutive milk based drinks - something which I'm still looking into.

I'm sure many on the forum will encourage you to also look at the Lelit Elizabeth which is a DB, although slightly over budget at £1150. More programmability, faster heat up and probably better for back to back milk drinks. For me personally it doesn't look as appealing with a more industrial appearance and some parts such as the steam knob and portafilter handle seem a bit cheap looking. Otherwise it seems like good value.

Others have also recommended the ACS Minima if you like the E61 group as I do but also the flexibility of a DB.


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## benoit3000 (Apr 14, 2020)

HVL87 said:


> I'm currently debating similar upgrade options (coming from a barista pro) to you and have decided against buying a sage DB due to reliability concerns and cost/ease of repair. Although the Sage DB is available directly from sage in black truffle, discounted to £900 with the code available on here.
> 
> The MaraX does look appealing to me as well but I'm not yet sure it's ideal for making consecutive milk based drinks - something which I'm still looking into.
> 
> ...


 Hi @HVL87 - interesting. Thanks for posting. Have you got anywhere further with your thoughts? Also, please may you share the link/code to the SDB discount? I couldn't seem to find this.

re my own thought process... MaraX looks a well thought out and decent bit of kit, but I'm not sure if it is enough of an upgrade from my SDP (which is still producing some good coffee) in terms of features to justify dropping >£1k on it (as id probs want to customise the wood, and grab a naked PF for it...taking it to 1100-1200).

I then started thinking maybe the Bianca is the better longer term investment as it probably as most of the things I'd be looking for... but it's 1800 quid. Then read a number of reviews saying the Lelit build quality isn't a patch on ECM and started looking at a Synchronika for £2.2k as a machine that might last me a decade+ and therefore best long term investment... but now I'm >£2k for a coffee machine 🤯 I know that's nothing compared to some of the folks on this thread but I personally never thought I'd go anywhere near that kinda cash on a home brew kit! Funny thing is I originally joined this forum to track down advice on a faulty pump/OPV for my Sage (which I fixed for £18 and some awesome help on this site) and I'm now suddenly considering 2 grands' worth of coffee kit!

So then had a bit of a panic/reality check and thought a) perhaps I just stick with my SDP and run it into the ground...however long that is. And b) maybe the 900 quid SDB is the best bet after all as it has a tonne of great features for 900 quid...if I can keep it running. Big last 'IF' I know from having read a tonne of posts on SDB issues - concluded that as long as you can track down the parts (most likely from Oz) then it's fixable in majority of scenarios for a good few years once its warranty has expired. Sure, it doesn't have the 'romanticism' of an E61 or shiny Italian steel.. but features wise I'm finding it hard to justify £2k+ on a machine to match its performance.

So...sorry for the ramble...still undecided as you can tell... but interested to hear if you got any further with your thought process?


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## benoit3000 (Apr 14, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> A number of very knowledgeable members have the DB and enjoy it. As I understand it, the performance of Sage machines is excellent.
> 
> The reliability is up for debate though and some people have been rather unlucky. Others say they are no more prone to failure than anything else on the market.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the reply David - as I get more into this research I think I'm veering away from the Mara and want something with a few more variables to play around with (and prob a DB) - I might not need them right away given where I am on my learning journey, but want the optionality for future to avoid another upgrade in a few years' time. A few people have recommended the ACS minima - but I notice it's out of stock on your website - any ideas when you might get these back in?

Also, any other home machines you'd recommend in the 1-2k bracket?

Thanks,

chris


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

benoit3000 said:


> Hi @HVL87 - interesting. Thanks for posting. Have you got anywhere further with your thoughts? Also, please may you share the link/code to the SDB discount? I couldn't seem to find this.
> 
> re my own thought process... MaraX looks a well thought out and decent bit of kit, but I'm not sure if it is enough of an upgrade from my SDP (which is still producing some good coffee) in terms of features to justify dropping >£1k on it (as id probs want to customise the wood, and grab a naked PF for it...taking it to 1100-1200).
> 
> ...


 I believe the sage discount code is no longer valid but could be found in the deals section on the forum.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55674-25-off-sage-appliances/?do=embed

I am no longer considering the MaraX for two reasons. Firstly it doesn't really seem suitable for making consecutive milk based drinks (3-4) whilst maintaining a stable temp. You would have to use it as a standard Hx machine and I don't want temperature to be another variable to think about. Also the additional maintenance of an E61 group is not ideal for me, although the Lelit Bianca does look appealing!

I do understand your thought process. Without spending a very large sum of money, there is always going to be a compromise of sorts.

The Minima has been recommended but I'm not sure about the quality of the exterior finish of the machine based on the Bella Barista video - maybe things have changed since. Maybe @Black Cat Coffee is can comment as I haven't used the machine.

For me, I am most likely to go for a Lelit Elizabeth which seems to be good value. It's a dual boiler, has a few variables you can play around with such as pre-infusion, powerful steam and a small footprint.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

benoit3000 said:


> Thanks for the reply David - as I get more into this research I think I'm veering away from the Mara and want something with a few more variables to play around with (and prob a DB) - I might not need them right away given where I am on my learning journey, but want the optionality for future to avoid another upgrade in a few years' time. A few people have recommended the ACS minima - but I notice it's out of stock on your website - any ideas when you might get these back in?
> 
> Also, any other home machines you'd recommend in the 1-2k bracket?
> 
> ...


 Hi Chris,

The first batch of Minimas sold out pretty quickly. We do have some more on order though and I expect them to be with us next week (fingers crossed). I think it is a wise move to go for something that is going to suit you long term. If you are already considering upgrades before pulling the trigger then I think giving some others serious consideration now is probably going to be less expensive in the long run.

We have some machines arriving from Izzo tomorrow. The Alex Duetto IV Plus is a dual boiler, rotary pump, dual PID machine that might be of interest. It will be at the top of your budget but they are excellent machines with some lovely touches. They are fairly sizeable however. We will also have the Alex PID Plus which is a HX PID, again it is a fabulous looking machine with excellent build. You could plumb both machines in which might be of interest to you. Feel free to give us a call or PM if you have any questions.

David.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

HVL87 said:


> .
> 
> The Minima has been recommended but I'm not sure about the quality of the exterior finish of the machine based on the Bella Barista video - maybe things have changed since. Maybe @Black Cat Coffee is can comment as I haven't used the machine.


 The case quality is a really interesting one. ACS do not stamp out and bend cases with lots of angles and creases. Creases and folds are there to serve two purposes, one being aesthetic and secondly they strengthen the case. ACS instead use a LOT thicker gauge steel to provide the strength. The gauge of the stainless on the Minima is more like a very high end commercial machine than a domestic coffee machine.

It certainly has an unusual aesthetic which I will freely admit to being slightly sceptical of but once you see them in the flesh they are a very handsome machine indeed, the photos do not do them justice. I would have no doubts whatsoever about case quality.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

They are very different machines , with different user experiences and functions.

I own an e61 machine and have owned an oracle , just to give my side , and I have no interest in which one you end up with ,

I know of sage dbs that are going 5 years plus after purchase but you don't seem to see people posting this. Are you someone that really wants to repair a machine like a minima yourself , just worth thinking about . To some degree sage failure rate will be a function of numbers sold , I don't see as many anecdotally db failing as I do entry level models . This may be a function of the skill set of entry level models and how those machines are treated , who knows. But ultimately parts are not as free for these machines as an an e61 . Non sage machines need maintenance too, often people can get parts themselves to do this . 
While the E61 machines have retailers here who will extol there value the sage machines do not , not taking a swipe at anyone selling machines just stating a fact .

either will make good coffee .


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## earthflattener (Jul 27, 2015)

Regarding Sage, I've an analogy that hopefully contains a grain of truth....alright it's turned into a blooming essay!

I enrolled in a PhD program in France in the mid 80s without speaking a word of French. That was not considered the done thing by my hosts back in those days, so had to do a 2 month crash course in French. On the course, which was in the Jura region, I met an independent Aussie wine maker, Pam, from Margaret River who was there for a year to study high quality French wines. She had a lot more money than me (as in she had some money), so used to hire a car and we'd head off at weekends to visit some wineries. At that time, while France produced the most brilliant wine, the vast majority was fairly poor, muddy with undifferentiated flavours. What Pam taught me was that the Aussie industry was taking a clear scientific approach to wine making. Scientific technique and precision was everything. This meant that Aussie wines at the lower end of the scale were being lifted way up beyond the French equivalent. She was pretty scathing about the French mass produced industry. Many old timers here will remember when the 'new world' wines started to compete in quality and price with the old world ones. In the fullness of the time, the old world started using similar techniques and now places like Languedoc can produce some really good wine at less than 20 quid (sadly, not always easy to get over here). A high tide raises all boats.

It appears to me that third wave coffee has some similarities to that wine trajectory. It's perhaps not entirely surprising that the Aussies/NZ'ers played a role in that too. Assuming good beans & roast (also massively improved by a scientific approach), the important things for making coffee are a number of technical input controls such as grind quality, temperature and pressure (yes, distribution too). No voodoo, no high priests need apply. It's just a question of optimizing. Can you make a machine relatively cheaply that will raise the game across this technical bridge? Enter Breville/Sage with an engineering led approach. At the lower end of the market, comparing say, to Gaggia classic, their entry to the market was like kicking in an open door. Regarding the BDB, best to check specifically for owners of that machine on here. I see people who do look after their machines and seem to have long life. It was the cheapest way to get a high performing DB. Is it still best bang for your buck? I don't know, but second hand (mine cost less than £500 with a year warranty) it's still a big contender. Also, to look for BDB users and what they really think, it is best to go to a large vocal community of owners such as https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/breville-dual-boiler-five-years-on-t45361.html.

Regarding reliability, I guess none of know the actual facts. One thing to bear in mind is that people who are let down by a product are far, far more vocal that those whose expectations are met, especially if all they wanted was a good coffee rather than a vocation. The Sage Barista Express is the largest selling coffee machine on Amazon and Sage have pretty much the only non-fully automatic machines in the top 20 or 30. So, if they have a failure rate which is the same as others, then simple logic tells us that you are far more likely to hear of complaints from their users. Without harder information, the reliability question is undecided. When people on this site try to convince you not to buy Sage using that, is it actually disinformation? Probably not, but it would be good if people were explicitly clear about vested interests, direct OR indirect (Not having a go at advertisers here - the big word Advertiser tends to let us know where they are coming from). In fact Sage's annual cost of repair is about 1% of their Sales turnover, which is very good for a large engineering company. Is that true for the coffee machine part of their business...don't know.

One way or another, strategically, for the industry, the arrival of products like Sage are probably not a bad thing. Growing market etc. Like I said before, a high tide raises all boats, even for the top end of the market.


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## PJCT (Jun 17, 2020)

To the OP. You did mention "other" in the title.

How about keeping your eyes open for a second hand lever machine?

They do come up (I bought a Londinium on here a few months ago for GBP1,200).

Funnily enough I was also considering an ECM (and also a Bezzera - the ones that BlackCat has do look very nice) but the L1 came up and the rest is history.


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## benoit3000 (Apr 14, 2020)

PJCT said:


> To the OP. You did mention "other" in the title.
> 
> How about keeping your eyes open for a second hand lever machine?
> 
> ...


 Hi @PJCT - thanks for the reply. Interesting, never really considered the lever machine... what are the main benefits of a lever over a pump machine? Thanks


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## benoit3000 (Apr 14, 2020)

earthflattener said:


> Regarding Sage, I've an analogy that hopefully contains a grain of truth....alright it's turned into a blooming essay!
> 
> I enrolled in a PhD program in France in the mid 80s without speaking a word of French. That was not considered the done thing by my hosts back in those days, so had to do a 2 month crash course in French. On the course, which was in the Jura region, I met an independent Aussie wine maker, Pam, from Margaret River who was there for a year to study high quality French wines. She had a lot more money than me (as in she had some money), so used to hire a car and we'd head off at weekends to visit some wineries. At that time, while France produced the most brilliant wine, the vast majority was fairly poor, muddy with undifferentiated flavours. What Pam taught me was that the Aussie industry was taking a clear scientific approach to wine making. Scientific technique and precision was everything. This meant that Aussie wines at the lower end of the scale were being lifted way up beyond the French equivalent. She was pretty scathing about the French mass produced industry. Many old timers here will remember when the 'new world' wines started to compete in quality and price with the old world ones. In the fullness of the time, the old world started using similar techniques and now places like Languedoc can produce some really good wine at less than 20 quid (sadly, not always easy to get over here). A high tide raises all boats.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for that, enjoyed the read and wine anecdote. What you're saying about Sage generally makes a lot of sense, and will check out the HB post on the SDB... thank you


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## benoit3000 (Apr 14, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> The first batch of Minimas sold out pretty quickly. We do have some more on order though and I expect them to be with us next week (fingers crossed). I think it is a wise move to go for something that is going to suit you long term. If you are already considering upgrades before pulling the trigger then I think giving some others serious consideration now is probably going to be less expensive in the long run.
> 
> ...


 Thanks David, will be sure to check out the Izzo and get in touch with any Qs 👍🏼


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## benoit3000 (Apr 14, 2020)

HVL87 said:


> I believe the sage discount code is no longer valid but could be found in the deals section on the forum.
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55674-25-off-sage-appliances/?do=embed
> 
> ...


 Yeah you're right about compromise- just need to figure out where I make concessions within my budget. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Elizabeth looks decent, hope you enjoy that! 👌🏼


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## PJCT (Jun 17, 2020)

I should probably let those who know better comments on the pluses and minuses of a lever machine.

I would say that the pluses include the simplicity of the machine and process - it takes you back to a coffee bar in 60s Naples.

They are, however big beasts!

I bought mine in the hope that my life would suddenly become like Marcello Mastoianni's in Leri Oggi Domani but it hasn't happened yet!


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## benoit3000 (Apr 14, 2020)

> On 15/12/2020 at 14:39, PJCT said:
> 
> I should probably let those who know better comments on the pluses and minuses of a lever machine.
> 
> ...


 Haha love it! 🤣


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## EddieT (Oct 27, 2020)

Interesting thread, I'm planning an upgrade from a Barista express in the next year or two. Biding my time and saving up. Got a Niche recently. Leaning towards a Bianca, feel like I want a non-Sage, 'Proper' brand of machine (silly I know). Lelit seem really interesting. I would consider the Mara x but think I'd always be left wanting with things like steam power for multiple drinks. Elizabeth looks interesting but I don't like the aesthetic as much. Profitec Pro700 could also be in the mix. Would prefer sub £1500 but also thinking buy something higher end, should last a long time and keep upgraditis at bay...

Let us know what you decide!


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