# Upgrading my espresso game - Decent or something else?



## ShotsFired37 (Mar 20, 2020)

Hi,

Long time lurker here.

I purchased a Sage barista pro around Christmas time and upgraded to the niche zero grinder a couple of months ago.

I really want to upgrade my machine and have quite a healthy budget of around £3,500.

I'm really struggling to figure out what machine to upgrade to - out of a choice of several E61 machines, a Londinium R or a Decent DE1Pro.

I'm attracted to the Decent machine as I think it'll really scratch my espresso geek itch with all of the various profiling data, but a part of me is worried that it might just be a glorified sage barista pro due to the thermoblock nature of the machine. I'm used to not being able to pull a shot and steam milk at the same time, so that's not a problem - but I'm not too sure if my espresso game would better served with a more traditional machine.

I'd just like to gauge other opinions. With a budget of £3,500 what would you guys be looking to get?


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## KingoftheHeath (Nov 22, 2019)

I got the Bianca. The thing which out me off Decent is that you can only pre programme and not adjust on the fly.

One thing you've not mentioned is space - any limitations on what you can fit in your kitchen?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

The Decent is not a glorified anything. It's an absolutely top machine that's incredibly versatile. The feedback you get from the sensors will likely help you perfect your prep routine and understand what's happening during your extractions. I personally couldn't pay that much for one just because of concerns over longevity of parts, availability of parts, and my ability to service it myself. I think they have a decent returns and servicing policy though, I remember reading something about them sending a replacement machine to you while yours is on its way back to them for repair so you aren't stuck without a coffee machine, this is something you'll obviously have to check before ordering. If you've got the budget, want the tech, and are happy with their warranty/servicing policy then go for it. The Londinium R is supposed to be fantastic, no advanced features or anything like that, just a great lever machine - and many people consider lever machines to produce superior shots. Then you've got the staggering choice of E61s, and with your budget you have a variety of pressure profiling machines to choose from. Vesuvius, Crem, Rockets..down to a Bianca or Profitec with flow control device.

Whatever you get make sure you're feeding it water that won't damage or scale up the machine.


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

I just had to reply to this... I personally think the DE1 is the Tesla of coffee machines, it certainly isn't for everyone but I'm a techie geek at heart and the feedback, the sensors and the amount I hope to learn from it (hasn't' arrived yet!) just makes me dribble (sorry I am quite sad)... @KingoftheHeath yes, that made me wait too - but now the DE1 v1.3 can now be adjusted on the fly, not nearly as elegantly as a traditional coffee machine, but that's a trade off I was prepared to make.

Having now listened to the likes of James Hoffman, Scott Rao, Matt Perger etc who all claim to have significantly accelerated their learning curves from having used the Decent it kind of inspires me to want to learn more... (not that I am anywhere near the knowledge levels that these guys have or ever will be!).

I think E61 group heads seem to have their own fair share of pros and cons but agree with @Rob1, who knows about the serviceable life of the DE1, but signs are good so far and John Buckman's open policy (both in terms of communications and IP) is also incredibly refreshing and makes me want to support him more in this endeavour.

And if your budget can stretch to it, perhaps the grinder too? EK43 or Monolith 

Anyway I was in a not dissimilar position a few months back and I took the Decent plunge - not sure if I'll regret it but so far I don't have itchy feet! And can't wait for my DE1+ Pro v1.3 to arrive soon...

Oh and definitely an Osmio Zero or some other means (home distillation like @Rob1) of producing good water...


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

To me your choice should be between the Londinium R and the Decent. Imo those are the best ones within your budget.

I think you need to ask yourself do you want to be able to constantly tweak and adjust and look at flow graphs and geek out over all the data possible or do you want a simple but excellent machine that'll be cheap and easy to maintain and will probably last longer than you?

Considering your budget you should definitely sell the Niche and get a better grinder to go with the new machine. The niche is good, but it won't get the very best out of either machine


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

Londinium R and a second hand EK43 would be my choice I reckon


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

Quite like playing "if money were no object?" 🤔

I would be very tempted to get a Lelit Bianca and an EK43S if both funds and space allowed.

I really like the manual flow control paddle (have one on my Mara) so that would cover the profiling, plus being able to maintain my own machines and use standard-ish parts long term.

Or keep your Niche and buy a LM Linea Mini in light blue?

https://au.lamarzocco.com/machine/linea-mini/


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

Kannan said:


> I just had to reply to this... I personally think the DE1 is the Tesla of coffee machines, it certainly isn't for everyone but I'm a techie geek at heart and the feedback, the sensors and the amount I hope to learn from it (hasn't' arrived yet!) just makes me dribble (sorry I am quite sad)... @KingoftheHeath yes, that made me wait too - but now the DE1 v1.3 can now be adjusted on the fly, not nearly as elegantly as a traditional coffee machine, but that's a trade off I was prepared to make.
> 
> Having now listened to the likes of James Hoffman, Scott Rao, Matt Perger etc who all claim to have significantly accelerated their learning curves from having used the Decent it kind of inspires me to want to learn more... (not that I am anywhere near the knowledge levels that these guys have or ever will be!).
> 
> ...


 You going to sell your DB? When your decent arriving?


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

Joe shorrock said:


> You going to sell your DB? When your decent arriving?


 Quite possibly, it is heavily modded though... Actually was going to fit a Clippard "Jake" valve to it to have better control over the profiling... Decent arrives in the next couple of weeks I've been told (next batch)...


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## ShotsFired37 (Mar 20, 2020)

Kannan said:


> I just had to reply to this... I personally think the DE1 is the Tesla of coffee machines, it certainly isn't for everyone but I'm a techie geek at heart and the feedback, the sensors and the amount I hope to learn from it (hasn't' arrived yet!) just makes me dribble (sorry I am quite sad)... @KingoftheHeath yes, that made me wait too - but now the DE1 v1.3 can now be adjusted on the fly, not nearly as elegantly as a traditional coffee machine, but that's a trade off I was prepared to make.
> 
> Having now listened to the likes of James Hoffman, Scott Rao, Matt Perger etc who all claim to have significantly accelerated their learning curves from having used the Decent it kind of inspires me to want to learn more... (not that I am anywhere near the knowledge levels that these guys have or ever will be!).
> 
> ...


 I have a feeling the DE1Pro is the way I'm going to as I love the technical side of espresso making - so any data in regards to puck preparation etc would be very helpful.

Another thing I'm uncertain of is if the DE1Pro is more geared towards light roasts, and I would be better served going with the Londinium for medium/dark roasts.

And then there's also the whole mouthfeel debate that seems to rage on for the Decent. I'm not too sure if I would notice that much if I mainly make milk based drinks anyway...

I have been looking into the Osmio zero as currently I'm accumulating a lot of plastic waste buying volvic for my sage barista pro.

Again, I have hesitation in pulling the trigger on the osmio as I'm worried that it may be too much of a faff remineralising the water to a perfect brewing composition.

On the grinder note, I will eventually upgrade but I'm having to wait on the preorders to open for the monolith flat. I can't seem to find any used ones - I assume they're quite rare!



Northern_Monkey said:


> Quite like playing "if money were no object?" 🤔
> 
> I would be very tempted to get a Lelit Bianca and an EK43S if both funds and space allowed.
> 
> ...


 The linea mini is another on the shortlist as it seems like it could steam milk like a beast which would suit me as my partner and I enjoy flat whites regularly.

I'll have to look into the Mara as well. When I bought the Sage, I had no idea what I'd gotten myself into - I love to delve deep into any hobby, but espresso making is another level!


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

ShotsFired37 said:


> And then there's also the whole mouthfeel debate that seems to rage on for the Decent. I'm not too sure if I would notice that much if I mainly make milk based drinks anyway...


 You are certainly not precluded from pulling standard 2:1 18g in 36g out shots so if you want to (as far as mouth feel is concerned) you can pull any style shot (the whole point is you can emulate any machine profile you want on a Decent)...



ShotsFired37 said:


> Again, I have hesitation in pulling the trigger on the osmio as I'm worried that it may be too much of a faff remineralising the water to a perfect brewing composition.


 I haven't opened that can of worms yet lol. I was thinking of adding Third Wave to my water but will hold off for a bit - quite a few people here do seem to be using the Osmio and I haven't read of any complaints. I for one really like the taste of it, but obviously that is totally subjective. You could consider a Peak filter for now...



ShotsFired37 said:


> I have a feeling the DE1Pro is the way I'm going to as I love the technical side of espresso making - so any data in regards to puck preparation etc would be very helpful.


 My feelings exactly.



ShotsFired37 said:


> The linea mini is another on the shortlist as it seems like it could steam milk like a beast which would suit me as my partner and I enjoy flat whites regularly.


 Apparently the steaming is pretty awesome on the Decent v1.3 - super dry and slightly higher temp steam than most machines are capable of which all results in amazing microfoam - I was a little worried about that but from what i've read on the Diaspora board (the Decent owners private forum) it's not an issue at all.



ShotsFired37 said:


> On the grinder note, I will eventually upgrade but I'm having to wait on the preorders to open for the monolith flat. I can't seem to find any used ones - I assume they're quite rare!


 Yes like gold dust - especially a 240v version! I've been looking since March now... also on the wait list for the wait list  . In the meantime I got myself an EK43 to try and mess around with.

If you want to add to the list of machines to look at: the ACS Minima and Vesuvius should be there too!


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

Can I respectfully suggest you do more research? Your comparison between Decent and a Sage DTP is so far off that it makes me think you didn't really look at the spec at all. They're light years apart even in paper, and once I finally get mine I'll tell you just how many!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

A grinder upgrade could certainly be on the cards too. Keep the Niche and add a large flat. I wouldn't bother with a monolith personally, I don't see what's so special about them compared to other options but then I've never used one. I'd consider an EK43, Compak R1120, Mazzer ZM and now the Ceado E37Z-Hero for single dosing, maybe a Terranova modified Versalab or Monolith Max. Hopper fed a Mythos clima pro 2 or ordinary Mythos. If I were upgrading the large flat I'd probably just go hopper fed and get a Mythos.

The DE can apparently emulate any machine. There might be some aspects like a massive water debit that can't be replicated but as far as pressure and temperature profiles go they can be.


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@ShotsFired37 - Mine is just the old Mara, but it is compatible with the Bianca paddle. Not sure about the new X though.

If I had more space or cash at the time I would have gone for the Bianca instead as the double boilers are better in terms of brew temp control.


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## ShotsFired37 (Mar 20, 2020)

filthynines said:


> Can I respectfully suggest you do more research? Your comparison between Decent and a Sage DTP is so far off that it makes me think you didn't really look at the spec at all. They're light years apart even in paper, and once I finally get mine I'll tell you just how many!


 I know I definitely need to do some more research. I have been trying to find a spec sheet for the decent, but have been unable to.

I was only comparing the barista pro with the DE1Pro as they're both thermoblock machines - when I've looked previously at bellabarista, their "tutorial" on various types of machines put thermoblocks at the lower end compared to dual boiler etc.

However, I do believe that the DE1Pro is an entirely different beast, but just wanted to gauge other opinions on it.



Rob1 said:


> A grinder upgrade could certainly be on the cards too. Keep the Niche and add a large flat. I wouldn't bother with a monolith personally, I don't see what's so special about them compared to other options but then I've never used one. I'd consider an EK43, Compak R1120, Mazzer ZM and now the Ceado E37Z-Hero for single dosing, maybe a Terranova modified Versalab or Monolith Max. Hopper fed a Mythos clima pro 2 or ordinary Mythos. If I were upgrading the large flat I'd probably just go hopper fed and get a Mythos.
> 
> The DE can apparently emulate any machine. There might be some aspects like a massive water debit that can't be replicated but as far as pressure and temperature profiles go they can be.


 Thank you for all the recommendations, I'll definitely take a look into these grinders.


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

Kannan said:


> Quite possibly, it is heavily modded though... Actually was going to fit a Clippard "Jake" valve to it to have better control over the profiling... Decent arrives in the next couple of weeks I've been told (next batch)...


 How many mods you got on it?


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

Right now: brass pump replacement, brass OPV set to 11 bar, custom thermocouple (that will change to an OEM one when I open it again), "Slayer" mod - the water dial acts as a profiler knob and no hot water through the dispenser and the Jake valve will be fitted this week - that replaces the stock needle valve. Most of this is reversible (though not sure why you would want to personally)...


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Ronsil has one already not sure which one. maybe ask him


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## ShotsFired37 (Mar 20, 2020)

Just a quick update - After a silly amount of research, I've whittled it down to two machines.

The Lelit Bianca and the Decent DE1Pro.

With all the accessories added, the DE1Pro is twice the price of the Bianca.

Decisions decisions!


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

I pretty much boiled it down to that too (also included the ACS minima with lelit flow control in that list)... And someone on HB has just posted exactly the same too... At the end of the day, for me, it boiled down to if I wanted a beautiful machine that would probably outlive me and I could learn an "art form" in that time, or a machine that would fuel my inner child and significantly change the gradient of my learning curve (whilst costing twice as much and potentially lasting half as long)... Needless to say I went for the latter  but that is a very personal thing... I would still love something that looks like the Bianca on my worktop, they are aesthetically very pleasing - and if SWMBO isn't looking one day, that might happen too!

Oh and that Vesuvius for sale on the forum has got to warrant serious consideration too


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## Jackb (May 19, 2020)

ShotsFired37 said:


> Just a quick update - After a silly amount of research, I've whittled it down to two machines.
> 
> The Lelit Bianca and the Decent DE1Pro.
> 
> ...


 Slightly off topic, but will you be looking at selling the Barista Pro once it is replaced?


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

Lelit bianca is a absolute beauty! Paired with niche, laughing 👍


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## ShotsFired37 (Mar 20, 2020)

Jackb said:


> Slightly off topic, but will you be looking at selling the Barista Pro once it is replaced?


 Unfortunately not. I'll be giving it to my brother 🙂


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Joe shorrock said:


> Lelit bianca is a absolute beauty! Paired with niche, laughing 👍


 Excuse me haha


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

Jony said:


> Excuse me haha


 Sorry the V 🤪


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## AAD44H (Apr 17, 2018)

I'd be interested in the Niche if you were thinking of selling?


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

ShotsFired37 said:


> Just a quick update - After a silly amount of research, I've whittled it down to two machines.
> 
> The Lelit Bianca and the Decent DE1Pro.
> 
> ...


 Quite different machines surely. Depends how nerdy you see yourself getting I suppose.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Just get a Decent DE1 - it's the only choice...

Why not save a reasonable amount and go for the DE1+ instead of the Pro? Unless you're running a coffee shop and making 100+ shots a day, I just don't see why so many home users are going for the Pro when there's so little difference.

Many Pro owners like the brushed finish of the + as it's MUCH easier to keep it looking good. The mirror is easily sorted and the shower screen is £20.

Otherwise the only difference is that some valves and the pumps have a different service rating - they all do the same thing and produce the same result.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ShotsFired37 (Mar 20, 2020)

AAD44H said:


> I'd be interested in the Niche if you were thinking of selling?


 I'm going to be keeping it, whilst looking to add a flat blurred grinder as well.



MrShades said:


> Just get a Decent DE1 - it's the only choice...
> 
> Why not save a reasonable amount and go for the DE1+ instead of the Pro? Unless you're running a coffee shop and making 100+ shots a day, I just don't see why so many home users are going for the Pro when there's so little difference.
> 
> ...


 What machines did you have prior to the DE1+?

How does it compare to them and how do you find the milk steaming on the Decent?


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

ShotsFired37 said:


> I'm going to be keeping it, whilst looking to add a flat blurred grinder as well.
> 
> What machines did you have prior to the DE1+?
> 
> How does it compare to them and how do you find the milk steaming on the Decent?


 Prior to the DE1+ I owned a Alex Duetto E61 dual boiler for 10 years. This was pretty good, but nothing like the flexibility and the geek factor of the Decent obviously.

I'm ejoying the espresso much more from the Decent than I probably ever did from the Duetto - with the ability to have flow, pressure and temperature profiling making for some very interesting shots.

The thermoblock technology used by the Decent is an advantage over a boiler rather than anything else, as far as I'm concened. Yes - have 'just' a thermoblock in a cheap machine, where it's controlled simply by a thermostat is never going to be hugely temperature stable (at all!) - but with the Decent using the thermoblock to heat water and then carefully and controlably mixing hot water with cold water to achieve whatever temperature is required at the drop of a hat is fantastic.

Steaming is great on the Decent as far as I'm concerned; I've got a 1.3 (if that makes much difference) and the steam is indeed VERY dry and the texturing is excellent. I've got the single hole tip on it right now, but I've also bought the new 3 hole tip... not got round to doing anything with it yet - as the single hole tip is working well for me. I'd also say that the Decent milk jugs and thermometer are fantastic tools as well - much better than the Motta jugs and temp tags that I've been using for years. OK, you can't steam at the same time as brewing, but you can steam immediately after brewing, and then go directly back to brewing, and then to steaming, etc, - so it's not like an SBDU machine in any way!

Just to complete the picture - I've had a number of grinders; and used the Duetto with a Compak K10 Fresh for many years (which was a very good large conical grinder); but swapped to a Ceado E37S a few years back (83mm flat) so it was the same grinder with the Duetto as I'm now using with the Decent. I don't see any need to upgrade it - as I prefer "on demand" grinders, with large burrs, that fit under kitchen cabinets (with a small hopper - and if you can think of any others that tick this box, regardless of price, then let me know!)

Every time John updates the software on the Decent (the tablet app is updated quite frequently, the actual firmware of the machine is updated much less frequently) the machine gains more features or better features, or whatever - since having it I've said it's the Tesla of espresso machines (someone else said this earlier in the thread) - and it's true; the technology and sensors and everything are in the hardware, and the machine can continue to be 'improved' ande developed purely through OTA updates.

It's really a great machine - and the Customer Support and lengths that John and the team go to to ensure complete customer satisfaction is absolutely first rate and deeply impressive.


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## ShotsFired37 (Mar 20, 2020)

Thanks for the detailed response 👍

I think one day soon I'm going to have to make the choice, it's just I do feel torn between traditional vs cutting edge.

However, my gut is telling me that I'll yearn for the DE1 not matter what, so why not cut out the middle man (lelit bianca) and go straight for it.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

ShotsFired37 said:


> Thanks for the detailed response
> I think one day soon I'm going to have to make the choice, it's just I do feel torn between traditional vs cutting edge.
> However, my gut is telling me that I'll yearn for the DE1 not matter what, so why not cut out the middle man (lelit bianca) and go straight for it.


I'll refer you back to my earlier comment "just get a DE1" 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

Have had my Decent for well over a year & it remains the best Machine I've ever owned.

You can enjoy the 'tech' or let it be as simple as you like. Whatever, it will produce beautiful espresso.

Customer service is out of this world.


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