# Sage DB bought from Ebay.



## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

Bought a brand new Sage DB from a single trader on Ebay, nothing wrong with the machine, registered it ok and got the White Glove service from Sage/Coffee Hit after sending proof of purchase, things going great until the De-scale are on, so I de-scaled it as per book, came out of the Descale menu and the De-scale warning comes on every time I turn the machine on until it reaches temperature then it goes off, repeated the process, same results, so decided to contact Sage Support.

This is when things started going wrong, I told them my problem, they gave me a few suggestions, all of which did not work, so they told me they would send an engineer out to have a look at it, I was to email them my proof of purchase, I told them that I had already done this when I applied for the Whit Glove Service, anyway they wanted me to resend it so I did, I then called them and was told that my Warranty was not valid as I had not bought the Dual Boiler from an approved supplier, I had bought it from a single trader from Ebay so that invalidated my warranty. I was fuming with this, I checked their 2 year warranty on the Dual Boiler and no where does it say that it has to be purchased from an Approved seller.

Does anyone have any views or advice for me or has anyone else come across this problem before, I have contacted Citizens Advice, just waiting for a reply from them so thought I would post it on here, just one last thing the machine was Brand New, was sold as New so as it has now become faulty does anyone know if I have any come back on the Seller on Ebay?

Any thoughts or help would be much appreciated.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

I dont know if this applies here but some years ago a company was selling printers in to my customer and buying them without warranty. This was cheaper than we could sell the printers at as we were an approved supplier and had to buy wit the warranty - work that one out







. The irony was that we lost the sale and had to fix the printers when they failed without the waranty credits from the supplier.

It may not be the case here - just my twopenneth


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## dmreeceuk (Apr 18, 2018)

It was probably cheaper on eBay and usually this is the risk you take for not being covered by a warranty. You take the burden of the repair risk yourself in return for a cheaper purchase.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/Does-a-Manufacturers-Warranty-Mean-Anything-on-EBay-/10000000178951480/g.html


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

How long ago did you buy it? After the first year things are a bit less definitive, although you have a right to have an inherent fault dealt with by Sage for years afterwards under EU law.

The retailer also has a responsibility to deal with your problem for the first year, and they technically should be your first port of call when dealing with an issue.

Either way I would keep at it, asking for the call to he escalated and asking them to specifically point out where in the warranty what they are telling you is laid out.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dmreeceuk said:


> It was probably cheaper on eBay and usually this is the risk you take for not being covered by a warranty. You take the burden of the repair risk yourself in return for a cheaper purchase.
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/Does-a-Manufacturers-Warranty-Mean-Anything-on-EBay-/10000000178951480/g.html


I think this applies if the seller has bought it at retail, or similar, and then resells, which is possible in this case.

If the seller is a registered business and not an individual then normal selling regulations will apply.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I think that the very act of doing a descale is what clears the message that it needs to be done. If they had some magic way of detecting scale the machine wouldn't need water hardness entering.








I did mine recently and had a mental block. Pressed 1 cup and power button at same time to get to the menu, arrows to get to descale and then forgot to press menu to get it to function. Can't see that sort of thing being your problem as a descale to the book takes over an hour, I add another flush so longer. Your bound to have noticed doing it correctly.

Maybe you could try using the first option in the same menu - reset. There must be none volatile memory in the machine and that will reset it to defaults - maybe the descale message as well.

I noticed a machine being sold cheaply like this and when I asked about warrantee I didn't receive an answer. You might find it rather difficult to chase up but you may be able to get seller details off ebay. Not something I have had to do for a long long time and only once but the facility was there providing you have bought off them. I think it may be an option on searches for a sellers name but you may need to contact them or maybe paypal assuming you used that. There could be a time limit as 2 people contacted me asking for this sellers contact details - it seems that the ones ebay had were not correct. Even his phone number was on a divert.

John

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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

Dylan said:


> I think this applies if the seller has bought it at retail, or similar, and then resells, which is possible in this case.
> 
> If the seller is a registered business and not an individual then normal selling regulations will apply.


The seller is a registered business on Ebay, don't know if this changes anything, it was bought on 31st October 2017, what has annoyed me is that Sage accepted the proof of purchase for the White Glove Service, now it developed this fault they now don't want to know.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mark8805 said:


> The seller is a registered business on Ebay, don't know if this changes anything, it was bought on 31st October 2017, what has annoyed me is that Sage accepted the proof of purchase for the White Glove Service, now it developed this fault they now don't want to know.


That doesn't mean he is a approved reseller for Sage though, or that the machine is new or even that it has come from Uk stock unfortunately.

What did the origin sale add say about warranty etc


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> That doesn't mean he is a approved reseller for Sage though, or that the machine is new or even that it has come from Uk stock unfortunately.
> 
> What did the origin sale add say about warranty etc


Can't get the original listing up on Ebay and if I click on the Order Details from my email it comes back with this on Ebay - Order service temporarily unavailable or invalid URL.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Many things are sold with variations on an actual manufacturers warrantee - it's often why they are cheaper. Take one I have had, 2 years but the first year is with amazon. It appeared to be a warrantee via the manufacturer so phoned and was told that they would honour it once the item was over 12 months old. Amazon didn't make this clear but in this case it didn't matter. The fact that they did reduced the price by about 20% compared with other sources.

Most DB sellers I am aware of are very clear about the warrantee they come with. If a source such as ebay doesn't make it clear the best thing to do is ask because if you get a reply you have proof of a sort. I'm not so sure about comments concerning EU law and faults against time scales. I have a feeling that 6 months comes into it somewhere not 12. These sort of things sometimes get rationalised in the background and up to date reliable info is hard to find.

John

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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

mark8805 said:


> The seller is a registered business on Ebay, don't know if this changes anything, it was bought on 31st October 2017, what has annoyed me is that Sage accepted the proof of purchase for the White Glove Service, now it developed this fault they now don't want to know.


Is the white glove service a voucher type arrangement that comes with all machines ?

The issue with warranty may also be that the machines were bought by an individual from an authorised distributor and then sold on. Is the Sage warranty transferrable ?

As was said earlier, it sounds like the descale counter has not reset. Worth going through the process again or contacting Sage for technical support


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

ajohn said:


> Many things are sold with variations on an actual manufacturers warrantee - it's often why they are cheaper. Take one I have had, 2 years but the first year is with amazon. It appeared to be a warrantee via the manufacturer so phoned and was told that they would honour it once the item was over 12 months old. Amazon didn't make this clear but in this case it didn't matter. The fact that they did reduced the price by about 20% compared with other sources.
> 
> Most DB sellers I am aware of are very clear about the warrantee they come with. If a source such as ebay doesn't make it clear the best thing to do is ask because if you get a reply you have proof of a sort. I'm not so sure about comments concerning EU law and faults against time scales. I have a feeling that 6 months comes into it somewhere not 12. These sort of things sometimes get rationalised in the background and up to date reliable info is hard to find.
> 
> ...


So you would suggest contacting the Seller or Ebay?


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

ajohn said:


> Many things are sold with variations on an actual manufacturers warrantee - it's often why they are cheaper. Take one I have had, 2 years but the first year is with amazon. It appeared to be a warrantee via the manufacturer so phoned and was told that they would honour it once the item was over 12 months old. Amazon didn't make this clear but in this case it didn't matter. The fact that they did reduced the price by about 20% compared with other sources.
> 
> Most DB sellers I am aware of are very clear about the warrantee they come with. If a source such as ebay doesn't make it clear the best thing to do is ask because if you get a reply you have proof of a sort. I'm not so sure about comments concerning EU law and faults against time scales. I have a feeling that 6 months comes into it somewhere not 12. These sort of things sometimes get rationalised in the background and up to date reliable info is hard to find.
> 
> ...


So would you suggest contacting the seller or Ebay?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

This is not uncommon now. Rocket and other coffee machine manufacturers did this a couple of years ago. No warranty unless bought from an authorised seller. the idea being to stop box shifters buying things on the grey market, undercutting legitimate sellers and offering no warranty.

How did you pay for there machine?


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

working dog said:


> Is the white glove service a voucher type arrangement that comes with all machines ?
> 
> The issue with warranty may also be that the machines were bought by an individual from an authorised distributor and then sold on. Is the Sage warranty transferrable ?
> 
> As was said earlier, it sounds like the descale counter has not reset. Worth going through the process again or contacting Sage for technical support


White Glove Service was on The Dual Boiler and above and was only available on proof of purchase, they accepted the proof of purchase for the WGS but not for a fault, with regards to the Reset been on US forum and people on there have gad same problem, consensus seems to be keep resetting and after a couple of weeks it resets itself so I will keep resetting and see what happens.


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> This is not uncommon now. Rocket and other coffee machine manufacturers did this a couple of years ago. No warranty unless bought from an authorised seller. the idea being to stop box shifters buying things on the grey market, undercutting legitimate sellers and offering no warranty.
> 
> How did you pay for there machine?


Payment was through PayPal.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

claim via Paypal....is that linked to a credit or debit card

nothing in here

Sage's Warranty Policy

Please retain your Guarantee card and the Purchase Receipt as proof of purchase in order for your guarantee to be valid. These documents must be presented in the event of making a claim under the terms of the Sage Replacement Guarantee. If the appliance was received as a gift please mark the Guarantee "Gift" and insert against "Date of Purchase", the date on which the appliance was received.

Sage guarantees all products against defects caused by faulty workmanship and materials for a minimum of twelve months domestic use, scroll down to see a list of products with an Extended Warranty.

During this guarantee period Sage will REPLACE any defective product. However, if the product includes a number of accessories, only the defective part or accessory will be replaced. Sage reserves the right to make minor adjustments instead of replacing the product or accessory. Packaging, instructions, recipes etc. will not be replaced unless faulty.

Subject to your statutory rights as to the merchantable quality of the product or accessory. In the event of a product or accessory being replaced during the guarantee, the guarantee on the replacement will expire at the original date, i.e., 12 months from the original purchase date.

This guarantee excludes defects caused by the product not being used in accordance with instructions, accidental damage, misuse or being tampered with by unauthorised persons. The replacement guarantee also excludes breakages and consumable items such as kneading blade and pan.

If failure or fault occurs, please call our Customer Service Centre on 0808 178 1650 (free form a BT land line) or 0333 0142 970 (from a mobile phone)


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> claim via Paypal....is that linked to a credit or debit card
> 
> nothing in here
> 
> ...


Was done through a Visa Credit card through PayPal, how do I stand now, any thoughts?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I would contact seller first them ebay and then try paypal. There is a problem with paypal though - not many options for starting a dispute and I don't think yours is one of them. On the other hand they do have a liberal attitude. I suspect you probably can't get away with not as described as like all normal sources of new DB's it doesn't come with a Sage backed warrantee. It's an omission from the listing so not really not as described. Fraud might do better. I've found both very helpful when they can be. A recent problem lead to comment from them to use my actual credit card for purchases rather than my debit card as unlike them the credit card people will pull back cash. They can't. I think the responses relate to who ever you end up communicating with and can vary.

Many sellers are fine though - worth bearing in mind. They might sort something out with you. No way of knowing without contacting them. My recent purchase of a problem mazzer mini was sorted out without any problems at all including return postage costs. I feel sorry for the seller - he was duped when he bought it.

After that come actual contact details - phone number and address.

John

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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

ajohn said:


> I would contact seller first them ebay and then try paypal. There is a problem with paypal though - not many options for starting a dispute and I don't think yours is one of them. On the other hand they do have a liberal attitude. I suspect you probably can't get away with not as described as like all normal sources of new DB's it doesn't come with a Sage backed warrantee. It's an omission from the listing so not really not as described. Fraud might do better. I've found both very helpful when they can be. A recent problem lead to comment from them to use my actual credit card for purchases rather than my debit card as unlike them the credit card people will pull back cash. They can't. I think the responses relate to who ever you end up communicating with and can vary.
> 
> Many sellers are fine though - worth bearing in mind. They might sort something out with you. No way of knowing without contacting them. My recent purchase of a problem mazzer mini was sorted out without any problems at all including return postage costs. I feel sorry for the seller - he was duped when he bought it.
> 
> ...


I too have been duped on ebay, a lesson learned the very hard way, will go through each of the stages starting with seller, still waiting for a live chat with Sage at the moment.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Ive just done a bit of digging on statutory warranty rights and one area that you may fall down on is reference to items being bought from a retailer.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mentioning it on here might help with Sage. I believe the serial number tells them where it came from - or did when there were few outlets.

John

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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

mark8805 said:


> Can't get the original listing up on Ebay and if I click on the Order Details from my email it comes back with this on Ebay - Order service temporarily unavailable or invalid URL.


Is there anything eBay can do to confirm the t&cs of this sale?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Mentioning it on here might help with Sage. I believe the serial number tells them where it came from - or did when there were few outlets.
> 
> John
> 
> -


I dont think there is anyone from Sage on here monitoring the posts.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Is there anything eBay can do to confirm the t&cs of this sale?


I do know that they started keeping a copy of listings each time an item is sold a long time ago to get round people keeping images somewhere on the web and changing them when the item has sold. I've no idea how long they keep them.

I have bean known to print listings etc to a pdf file at times if there are longer term implications.







I think you will find a DB seller at the moment that mentions on site sage warrantee. Bet they would love that but maybe they do come like that from certain outlets.

Don't get me wrong but the best thing to do is get on with it. Contact seller, no joy contact ebay, maybe try paypal. A little bird told me that credit card companies have somewhat different access to these than we have. That was from my credit card company but not something I have ever tried to use.








I just bought something dubious off ebay - the paypal message mentions the ability to raise a dispute for the next 180 days. That's one reason I think basic defects rights are now 6 months what ever others on the web may say. You will probably find the email you received from them for the DB stated the same. You can check this via your account as well. I found a bit of a problem with this though - there had already been a settled dispute so couldn't raise another. Paypal call centre couldn't either as the system stopped them. This is where a credit rather than debit card payment might prove useful. I have received my replacement circuit board from the sellers anyway but they were rather slow accepting responsibility.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

All I can add to that is that if you do phone ebay there is usually a queue so email or chat if available can be quicker. No point shouting at call centre people - lots do. Pretty pointless really and they do get fed up with it - hardly surprising really.

John

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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Can you link us to the sellers profile? - Have you tried contacting them yet?

Ultimately it comes down to this:

Firstly - your consumer rights are with the retailer you bought it from, if you bought it from a dodgy retailer this can make your consumer rights hard to get - but you should at least try. If you haven't yet left feedback for the seller then you may have a bargaining chip.

Secondly - Sage's warranty terms do not say anything about authorised retailers. Sage cannot just add in clauses as they see fit - therefore despite the 'manufacturers warranty' being something that is offered in addition to your consumer rights you should still be able to force them to honour it. When you bought the machine you opened it, read the warranty (maybe) and were therefore happy with your purchase according to the terms written in black and white - Sage should absolutely have to honour this so keep pushing.


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## dmreeceuk (Apr 18, 2018)

Looks like this "fault" is quite normal and others have had the same. https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/breville-dual-boiler-descale-indicator-wont-go-off-t46897.html


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

First time I have seen the fault mentioned and mine does clear.

Scratching head, software can make assumptions that things are done in some order, it always does really. When I descale I always allow the descale to do the final fill of the boilers and then press the power button to exit descale. Also do the first boiler drain when the machine must have cooled while it's in the descale mode.

As to the rest it isn't unusual for companies to refuse to warrantee grey sales on the items they provide. The warrantees from some suppliers do seem to be transferable. Having been told fibs by JL though even that might best be checked via Sage.

I didn't come up with a Sage Warrantee terms and conditions however it's very likely to be the same as this one other than obvious changes for the UK etc

https://www.breville.com/content/dam/breville/us/assets/miscellaneous/pdfs/USA_Two_Year_Limited_Product_Warranty_B13_FA_WEB.pdf

The exclusions make interesting reading and aren't unusual what ever is bought.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dylan said:


> Can you link us to the sellers profile? - Have you tried contacting them yet?
> 
> Ultimately it comes down to this:
> 
> ...


Do we know if the machine is new?

If not is the warranty transferable? I suspect not.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Do we know if the machine is new?
> 
> If not is the warranty transferable? I suspect not.


Breville, BRG, Sage are all the same lot. Breville seems to be the parent company. The Breville site is more "professional" though and has the warrantee details available. Doubt if I miss read but not transferable and only from official retailers -







I get bored reading stuff like that and do it rather quickly. So it's a case of is the Sage UK warrantee any different? I don't have a Sage warrantee for my DB but do have details of the warrantee that it came with in an email as I asked for them. Not sure where the one for my BE is.

John

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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

Thanks for all your answers, it is sorted now, it was a simple as switch off at the power, unplug for about 10 minutes, plug back in, do a full reset and hey presto the De-Scale! warning has gone, so thanks again for all your thought and input, if any one else has this problem then just point them to this thread, I am once again a happy Dual Boiler user


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Breville, BRG, Sage are all the same lot. Breville seems to be the parent company. The Breville site is more "professional" though and has the warrantee details available. Doubt if I miss read but not transferable and only from official retailers
> 
> -


The sage site says the same where it refers to statutory warranty rights.

It doesn't spell it out on the site but a quick google of the phrase states that the item must be bought from a retailer.

The choice is to buy from Lakeland, John Lewis et al and have the comfort of their backup and relationship with the manufacturer or buy from an unknown, save a few quid and take the risk.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

mark8805 said:


> Thanks for all your answers, it is sorted now, it was a simple as switch off at the power, unplug for about 10 minutes, plug back in, do a full reset and hey presto the De-Scale! warning has gone, so thanks again for all your thought and input, if any one else has this problem then just point them to this thread, I am once again a happy Dual Boiler user


Glad you got it sorted.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It would be interesting to buy a Sage machine off Amazon. They are often cheaper than others but their page doesn't mention a guarantee. They wouldn't though as they want to sell one but just might not have the usual one. One interesting thing would be if the return due to a fault option stayed there for 180 days. The details of their 3 year warrantee are here

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01E5O88GE/ref=psd_bb_lm_B00G6FVTTE_B01E5O88GE

and they suggest checking what the manufacturer includes to avoid duplication.

John

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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

There is a company on eBay or you can go direct to their site elekdirect.co.uk they are selling a Dual Boiler brand new for £855 and they say that as long as you register it before 28 days Sage will honour the 2 year warranty.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

mark8805 said:


> There is a company on eBay or you can go direct to their site elekdirect.co.uk they are selling a Dual Boiler brand new for £855 and they say that as long as you register it before 28 days Sage will honour the 2 year warranty.


Is that still available - on ebay or their store?

John


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

mark8805 said:


> There is a company on eBay or you can go direct to their site elekdirect.co.uk they are selling a Dual Boiler brand new for £855 and they say that as long as you register it before 28 days Sage will honour the 2 year warranty.


So they say!!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It's back on now with an opening bid of 1p.

John

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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Classic box shifters........I really do fail to understand the attraction of buying something, then discovering that everything is not all that it seems when it goes tits up.......even if you have saved on the initial price. I quite understand that if it does not go wrong in warranty then you have won the bet.....but, this is Sage products that we are talking about. I would have thought that the most important part of the purchase was the warranty


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Same principal as buying something from KS/IGG - it's a gamble, and many people like a gamble.

To be fair, you could apply the same logic to 'extended warranties' - pay a bit more for peace of mind or take the bet that you wont be one of the people who run into a problem.

So long as you are going in eyes open its a perfectly reasonable choice to make either way.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

so many people go in with their eyes firmly shut though.....


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The 6 month warrantee on the DB is up now, or very nearly so and is then followed by a further 6 months of a rather strange warrantee where I get some proportion of what I paid back.

Cost was something like £650 for a refurbished unit, bit more than 1/2 price at the time. My main reason for going this way is not being sure that I would like it.







As it turns out it's a near love and hate relationship so could still be a wise move.

John

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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

Thought I would give you an update as Sage rang me up out of the blue this morning as I had sent them a lengthy email pointing out some of the points raised on here and also that they had provided me with The White Glove Service, which comes with the Dual Boiler once you have registered it, the outcome of the phone call was Sage have now agreed to honour the 2 year warranty on my Dual Boiler, not sure what swung it but I have dodged a bullet there and am very grateful to Sage.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Good to hear.

It may be that the first person you spoke to was shooting from the hip and their stance was not the sage stance.

We get it a lot with a regulatory body. Asking for their position in writing tends to get the real answer.


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