# Sticky  New Members - please read this first



## Glenn

*Choosing an Domestic Espresso Machine*

*
*

An espresso machine has a seemingly simple task - to pump water through ground coffee at a temperature of around 93˚c and a pressure of 9 bar in 20 to 30 seconds. There is a secondary function of producing steam for heating and foaming milk. So why is there such a range of machines and range of prices (from £50 to £2000 and beyond)? What do you get for your money? How much do you need to spend to make a decent espresso

There are a couple of key features that distinguish the good from the mediocre, and perhaps the most important is:

*Temperature Stability*

Supplying water at the correct temperature is essential for espresso. A commercial espresso machine is designed to be left on all day; it has a large boiler and a large amount of metal which, once warmed up, will keep a stable temperature all day long. Many commercial machines also heat the group (the bit the water passes through which the portafilter - the part that holds the ground coffee - locks onto) to help keep temperature stable.

But in a smaller domestic machine it is much more difficult to maintain temperature - it will continually heat up and cool down as coffee is made.

*Brew Temperature and Steam Temperature*

You may have noticed already that the task of the espresso machine is not so straight forward - it has to supply water at for the coffee but at near boiling point for the steam. How is is able to do this?

*1. Single Boiler Dual Function*

*
*

*Most favoured on this forum are the Gaggia Classic (approx. £169) and the Rancilio Silvia (£349)*

The very cheapest espresso machines (under £100), despite their appearances, are really like a version of the Bialetti or Moka stove top pots; rather than using a pump, hot water is heated up by an electric element and steam pressure passes it though the coffee. This inevitably means the water is too hot and scalds the coffee. We will not be considering these.

The simplest 'proper' domestic espresso machines work like this: a small thermostat-controlled boiler heats up the water to brew temperature, the pump forces it through the coffee. To make steam to foam your milk, you switch to a second thermostat and wait until the water reaches boiling point.

Immediately we can see two problems with this system: firstly, you have to wait a few minutes between brewing and steaming for the boiler to get hotter and, perhaps more importantly, the temperature in the boiler is rising and falling all the time - after you have made steam, the boiler is going to be substantially hotter than it was before and it could take some time to return to the correct temperature for coffee.

The Classic is solid, reliable and parts are easy to replace. It is a very popular machine and it easy to pick up a decent one second hand. The Silvia is generally regarded as a slightly better machine - more solid and better temperature stability - but the current price differential between it and the Classic mean that, arguably, it is not such good value for money. There are many other single boiler machines on the market, many of which look more stylish than the Gaggia or Rancilio but none of them are going to make better coffee or offer better long term value for money.

Both the Classic and the Silvia can upgraded with a PID control. The PID (stands for Proportional/Integral/Derivative) is an electronic device that, rather than switching power to the boiler on and off like a simple thermostat, supplies power in a series of pulses that get briefer as the boiler approaches the correct temperature. The PID control also allows you to experiment with different temperatures for different coffees.

*2. Heat Exchanger (HX)*

*
*

*Popular HX machines include the Fracino Cherub (approx. £650), the Expobar Leva Office (£900), and the Rocket Giotto and Cellini (£1200 to £1400)*

The heat exchanger has been used for decades in commercial machines. In an HX machine there is one heating element and one boiler, which superheats water under pressure so it can deliver steam on demand. Temperature of the water is usually regulated by a pressurestat (the pressure of the water in the boiler is directly related to its temperature). The brew water does not come directly from the boiler but from a copper tube that passes through the boiler.

A variation on this design (often but not necessarily incorporated into HX system) is the thermosiphon, which uses principles of convection (hot water rises/cold water sinks) to pass water directly from the boiler to the group which acts as a heat sink to reduce this superheated water to brew temperature. If the group gets too hot or too cold, water in the thermosiphon will circulate and bring it back to the correct temperature.

The E61 group is often found on HX machines (called so because it was developed by Faema in 1961 - the year of the eclipse). Although initially a commercial design, it is now found on many prosumer machines. In the E61 group water is circulated through the body of the group itself, maintaining a stable temperature. It also allows for pre-infusion, which lets hot water flow into the coffee grinds just before extraction takes place enabling a better extraction.

All the machines mentioned above are solidly made and will produce excellent coffee. The Italian machines (like Rocket and Izzo) tend to win on sheer looks, but the British (Fracino) and Spanish (Expobar) machines offer excellent value for money.

All the machines mentioned so far use an electric pump to force water through the coffee. Pumps come into two basic types - vibratory and rotary. Both work well; the vibratory pumps are cheaper, rotary pumps quieter.

*3. Dual Boiler*

*Popular Dual Boiler machines include the Fracino Piccino (£600), Expobar Leva Dual (£1100), La Spaziale Vivaldi II (£1500) and the Izzo Alex Duetto (£1900)*

A increasingly popular solution is to have one boiler supplying the water for brewing coffee and a separate boiler supplying water for steam. Both boilers have their own heating elements. This creates a slightly more complicated and more costly system, but it does mean the temperature of the brew water can be controlled completely independently of the steam system. E61 type groups are also found on Dual Boiler machines.

Both HX and Dual Boiler machines can maintain stable temperature and steam milk at the same time as they brew coffee and produce first rate espresso and cappuccino. Some machines, like the Expobar Leva Dual and the Alex Duetto have PID controls to maintain and adjust temperature accurately.

Although in principle, Dual Boiler may seem like a better solution than HX machines, in practice both can produce excellent coffee. It really comes down to the particular design of the machine, and some HX designs may have better temperature stability and steam power than Dual Boiler machines.

But there is an alternative to pump machines.

*4. Lever Machines*

*
*

*Popular lever machines include the Pavoni Europiccola (£300-£500), the Ponte Vecchio Lusso (£650 - £800), the Elektra Micocasa (£1000), the Olympia Cremina (£2750) and the Londinium I (£1600)*

*
*

Lever machines use a manual lever connected to a piston to force water through the coffee. This is traditional method that preceded electric pumps and is still favoured in southern Italy and is now having something of a resurgence.

Advocates of lever machines claim that the column of water the piston pushes through the coffee extracts the very best from the coffee and the mechanical design of the system means temperature of water is reduced as the piston descends, reducing the undesirable elements that remain in the coffee as the extraction progresses. Lever machines have the additional advantage of being extremely reliable and almost silent.

In manual lever machines the lever is connected directly to the piston, in spring-driven machines it is the spring that does the work (lifting the lever tensions the spring ready for the next extraction). Like dual boiler and heat exchanger designs, lever machines will supply steam without waiting for the boiler to reheat - either by basic mechanical design (the mass of the group and cylinder cooling the boiler water to the correct temperature) or by using thermosiphon principles. The best lever machines also exhibit excellent temperature stability but, with some of the more inexpensive machines, keeping the temperature steady can be a bit hit or miss (or, some would say, an acquired skill).

The high price of some new lever machines is offset by the fact, because of simplicity of design and quality of engineering, they can literally last a lifetime.

*In conclusion: How much difference does it really make?*

1. ALL the above machines are capable of making good espresso and cappucino, just on some it is easier than others. Generally speaking, the more sophisticated machines give more consistent results - it may take a bit more skill and fiddling to get a predictable result out of a smaller machine. Milk steaming is also easier on a bigger, more powerful machine.

2. The more sophisticated machines not only are likely to give you more consistent results, they will also allow you to fine-tune the extraction to get the very best out of the beans. This can make the difference between good and great coffee.

3. The bigger machines also allow you produce more coffees in a row and steam more milk without having to wait for the machine to heat up or cool down. If you are holding a dinner party and want to make half a dozen or more cappucinos, you may find it so tedious on a small machine that you end up offering them another form of coffee altogether.

Roland Denning November 2012


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## ronsil

Thank you Glen - thats a job well done.


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## fatboyslim

Excellent guide Glenn. If possible I'd make it compulsory viewing for all new members, so they can't view the forums till they have seen that article. I know this is possible on some other forum sites.

I'd just say that it is possible to pick up a Standard Fracino Cherub for much less than £730. I believe £650 (including delivery) is the cheapest I saw.


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## Glenn

Full credit to *RoloD* for putting this guide together.

Drop me a link to the cheaper prices and I will update


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## RoloD

Glenn said:


> Full credit to *RoloD* for putting this guide together.
> 
> Drop me a link to the cheaper prices and I will update


 Yes, I just used list prices at time of writing - I'm sure actual prices will be lower in many cases.

Someone needs to do a grinder guide now!

Roland


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## timtim5000

Hi there,

my name is Tim - I'm new to the forum and am looking forward to reading through all of the posts and forum messages.

I'm thinking seriously of opening up a new coffee place in a village near where I live in Kent. There are three other independents there (two of which do food as their main thing), and the other is a small place that does coffees and cakes. There is a fourth - which is Costa. I have ideas around my place as being a very different look and feel to the others that are in business already, with my target market being families with young children - I have a specific idea in mind as the attraction.

My question is this - what market research should a new start up carry out to understand if the potential target market will be attracted?

Any thoughts or suggestions from the experienced of forum members will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Tim


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## willhorn

Hello, I've just signed up to the site so a really good guide, thanks.

Can't wait to buy my first machine, gonna go for the Classic and MC2 grinder combo, seems to be a good starting point.

What accessories does a beginner need apart from a decent tamper?


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## Mrboots2u

willhorn said:


> Hello, I've just signed up to the site so a really good guide, thanks.
> 
> Can't wait to buy my first machine, gonna go for the Classic and MC2 grinder combo, seems to be a good starting point.
> 
> What accessories does a beginner need apart from a decent tamper?


Cups, frothing jug , jewellery scale of eBay £5 to 0.01 g, non pressurised basket for the gaggia if it isn't coming with one . Some coffee ...









And hello !


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## TMC

Hi there.

Just joined this groupe, looks like you all have a lot of experience with coffee making.

I have a delonghi Icona 310 machine ( I't replaced my senseo coffee duck ) and the start of my coffee journey.

I recently got a delonghi flat burr grinder it lasted 2 months and broke big time 3 days ago, resorting to pre ground coffee and starting to get withdrawl symptoms lol, hope i can find the help and information i need on here to get a reliable new grinder.


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## Mrboots2u

Obanla said:


> ok I want to learn how to make cooffee


Your are in the right place

Start a thread in the new members section and tell what coffee you would like to make


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## paul whu

nice article


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## Madtwinhead

I will read not but the first couple of paragraphs are are great


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## katarzynakibisz

Hi I've just sign up but the article great

thanks Glen


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## summiteverest

Dear Roland,

Thanks for such an informative post. I am starting out (had enough of instant coffee) and appreciate the advice you have given. Tempted by the Fracino Cherub for home use. The Piccino also looked great but I am put off that machine because I don't think you can descale it at home and it seems to be a very similar price to the Cherub. Still got to sort out a suitable grinder?

best wishes

Mike


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## Glenn

Welcome to Coffee Forums UK Mike

Pop over to the introductions section to let us know more about yourself, what kit you have and what you're looking for and we'll look after you


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## Mr O

Thanks to all involved for this very informative write up. It's a great read for people like me who are at the beginning of their home made espresso journey (and other coffee styles, just not for me)

I have decided that I will start with a Gaggia Classic to learn and hopefully perfect my espresso shot pulling









Cheers,

Mr O


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## docdvm

Hi

I am from Canada and was referred here because of my interest in a Londinium. I presently have a La Marzocco GS3 MP but would like to sell it and get a Londinium or Bosco. I know that the electrical requirements are quite different from Canada so there are some issues to address. Don't know if they are simple or not. Anyway hope to follow you for some time.

I just picked up a used Toper 1 kg. Roaster and will be roasting with it soon. Have been roasting with a HotTop for the past 6 years.


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## Orchid47

Thanks Glen new to forum have not a exspresso m/c yet


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## Orchid47

Need advice how good is Silvea for novice


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## Eyedee

Orchid47 said:


> Need advice how good is Silvea for novice


Perfect if combined with a reasonable grinder, be aware it's usually the fault of the operator when things go wrong.

Ian


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## mohd_mustaqeem

Ok


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## coffeeteaunited

A great guide for those new to espresso machines, well done...


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## stephan

Excellent guide, very informative!


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## tmpars7

Start with friends, draw up a questionnaire of your big questions, what's important to a customer, how to source coffee that everyone likes, the right milk. good barista for the "look", my local has latte art so you can chose your finish, a good idea with kids as you can do it with hot chocolate too, what do people expect to find at the shop, wifi, newspapers, a twitter feed, TV etc. Use social media before spending money on a website, if at all, incentive scheme etc. Good luck.


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## AliceDumitrascu

Very useful, thank you!


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## ji1404

Great starter post


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## Macray

Thanks for that excellent article. As a newbie to the world of coffee and this forum I have found it most helpful.


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## Rotherschild

Joined today Gaggia Classic owner trying to mod my Dualit grinder. Thank you for the introduction very informative looking forward to being involved with Forum when I have more experience under my belt.

Roland Denning November 2012


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## Patricklee

Great information, thank you.


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## benzz

Hi, I joined this forum to learn about coffee and habits of people in the UK enjoy a coffee once also introduced and offered coffee from my village


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## 2bor2bru

Very professional introduction. Thank you.


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## Missy

Hi all, I'm Missy, I spent a while working as a barista after uni, and am now a stay at home mum, I'm here to work out how I can recreate the feel of a commercial machine for about £1.27!!!


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## balques

Hi, thank you for the very informative guide. I'm looking into buying the KitchenAid Pro Line Series Espresso Maker, which is a dual boiler machine. Any feedback will be greatly appreciated.


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## Jack-Jones

Great summary of the different types of machines and methods. Glad it was a recommended read as a newcomer to the site!


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## Fayestons

This is great, thanks so much!


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## mumbleman

Thanks thats a good read for someone learning, like me


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## jenbatchelor

im new here so just thought I would say hello. Think I know quite a bit about coffee but in the middle of setting up my own coffee shop in Lndon, so jst signed up here for a bit of support & advice.

ive already purchased a la Morzocco linea Classic & mazzer robur, although not arrived yet. Looking for a much cheaper grinder for my dacaff range. Any advice Much appreciated


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## Brianfull87

Hi,

I'm new here and a great coffee lover


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## Belluca

very good noob info


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## Wichael

I am interested in the Alex duet to although it seems a big jump from my current gaggia Classic.


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## Jimlee99

Glenn said:


> *Choosing an Domestic Espresso Machine*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> An espresso machine has a seemingly simple task - to pump water through ground coffee at a temperature of around 93˚c and a pressure of 9 bar in 20 to 30 seconds. There is a secondary function of producing steam for heating and foaming milk. So why is there such a range of machines and range of prices (from £50 to £2000 and beyond)?
> 
> Roland Denning November 2012


So im looking for an entry level machine for less £200. I was thinking the delonghi Dedica. I want to be able to steam my own milk but not be worried about the grind size. I cannot afford the luxury! Ive seen a lot of people suggest used machine but there are no current bargains on ebay and i dont know where else to look. Any suggestions?


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## ajh101

Gaggia Classic - Amazon Warehouse! ☺


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## Missy

Once your post count is up entry level machines pop up regularly on here. Usually very well cared for, often with all the mods needed to make a great cup.

Is the Delonghi a bean to cup?


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## deedee2003

I just joined the forum. I am searching for a beginner coffee machine, this is very informative. Thank you


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## Robertshaun

Thanks for that great introduction, just need to get a good used gaggia classic now.


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## ayush12345

Probably the most informative thread I've come across.

TFS.

AK


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## happymark

This is a wonderful overview from 2012; are there any new machines to consider or ones to delete?

thanks

happymark



Glenn said:


> *Choosing an Domestic Espresso Machine*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> An espresso machine has a seemingly simple task - to pump water through ground coffee at a temperature of around 93˚c and a pressure of 9 bar in 20 to 30 seconds. There is a secondary function of producing steam for heating and foaming milk. So why is there such a range of machines and range of prices (from £50 to £2000 and beyond)? What do you get for your money? How much do you need to spend to make a decent espresso
> 
> There are a couple of key features that distinguish the good from the mediocre, and perhaps the most important is:
> 
> *Temperature Stability*
> 
> Supplying water at the correct temperature is essential for espresso. A commercial espresso machine is designed to be left on all day; it has a large boiler and a large amount of metal which, once warmed up, will keep a stable temperature all day long. Many commercial machines also heat the group (the bit the water passes through which the portafilter - the part that holds the ground coffee - locks onto) to help keep temperature stable.
> 
> But in a smaller domestic machine it is much more difficult to maintain temperature - it will continually heat up and cool down as coffee is made.
> 
> *Brew Temperature and Steam Temperature*
> 
> You may have noticed already that the task of the espresso machine is not so straight forward - it has to supply water at for the coffee but at near boiling point for the steam. How is is able to do this?
> 
> *1. Single Boiler Dual Function*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *Most favoured on this forum are the Gaggia Classic (approx. £169) and the Rancilio Silvia (£349)*
> 
> The very cheapest espresso machines (under £100), despite their appearances, are really like a version of the Bialetti or Moka stove top pots; rather than using a pump, hot water is heated up by an electric element and steam pressure passes it though the coffee. This inevitably means the water is too hot and scalds the coffee. We will not be considering these.
> 
> The simplest 'proper' domestic espresso machines work like this: a small thermostat-controlled boiler heats up the water to brew temperature, the pump forces it through the coffee. To make steam to foam your milk, you switch to a second thermostat and wait until the water reaches boiling point.
> 
> Immediately we can see two problems with this system: firstly, you have to wait a few minutes between brewing and steaming for the boiler to get hotter and, perhaps more importantly, the temperature in the boiler is rising and falling all the time - after you have made steam, the boiler is going to be substantially hotter than it was before and it could take some time to return to the correct temperature for coffee.
> 
> The Classic is solid, reliable and parts are easy to replace. It is a very popular machine and it easy to pick up a decent one second hand. The Silvia is generally regarded as a slightly better machine - more solid and better temperature stability - but the current price differential between it and the Classic mean that, arguably, it is not such good value for money. There are many other single boiler machines on the market, many of which look more stylish than the Gaggia or Rancilio but none of them are going to make better coffee or offer better long term value for money.
> 
> Both the Classic and the Silvia can upgraded with a PID control. The PID (stands for Proportional/Integral/Derivative) is an electronic device that, rather than switching power to the boiler on and off like a simple thermostat, supplies power in a series of pulses that get briefer as the boiler approaches the correct temperature. The PID control also allows you to experiment with different temperatures for different coffees.
> 
> *2. Heat Exchanger (HX)*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *Popular HX machines include the Fracino Cherub (approx. £650), the Expobar Leva Office (£900), and the Rocket Giotto and Cellini (£1200 to £1400)*
> 
> The heat exchanger has been used for decades in commercial machines. In an HX machine there is one heating element and one boiler, which superheats water under pressure so it can deliver steam on demand. Temperature of the water is usually regulated by a pressurestat (the pressure of the water in the boiler is directly related to its temperature). The brew water does not come directly from the boiler but from a copper tube that passes through the boiler.
> 
> A variation on this design (often but not necessarily incorporated into HX system) is the thermosiphon, which uses principles of convection (hot water rises/cold water sinks) to pass water directly from the boiler to the group which acts as a heat sink to reduce this superheated water to brew temperature. If the group gets too hot or too cold, water in the thermosiphon will circulate and bring it back to the correct temperature.
> 
> The E61 group is often found on HX machines (called so because it was developed by Faema in 1961 - the year of the eclipse). Although initially a commercial design, it is now found on many prosumer machines. In the E61 group water is circulated through the body of the group itself, maintaining a stable temperature. It also allows for pre-infusion, which lets hot water flow into the coffee grinds just before extraction takes place enabling a better extraction.
> 
> All the machines mentioned above are solidly made and will produce excellent coffee. The Italian machines (like Rocket and Izzo) tend to win on sheer looks, but the British (Fracino) and Spanish (Expobar) machines offer excellent value for money.
> 
> All the machines mentioned so far use an electric pump to force water through the coffee. Pumps come into two basic types - vibratory and rotary. Both work well; the vibratory pumps are cheaper, rotary pumps quieter.
> 
> *3. Dual Boiler*
> 
> *Popular Dual Boiler machines include the Fracino Piccino (£600), Expobar Leva Dual (£1100), La Spaziale Vivaldi II (£1500) and the Izzo Alex Duetto (£1900)*
> 
> A increasingly popular solution is to have one boiler supplying the water for brewing coffee and a separate boiler supplying water for steam. Both boilers have their own heating elements. This creates a slightly more complicated and more costly system, but it does mean the temperature of the brew water can be controlled completely independently of the steam system. E61 type groups are also found on Dual Boiler machines.
> 
> Both HX and Dual Boiler machines can maintain stable temperature and steam milk at the same time as they brew coffee and produce first rate espresso and cappuccino. Some machines, like the Expobar Leva Dual and the Alex Duetto have PID controls to maintain and adjust temperature accurately.
> 
> Although in principle, Dual Boiler may seem like a better solution than HX machines, in practice both can produce excellent coffee. It really comes down to the particular design of the machine, and some HX designs may have better temperature stability and steam power than Dual Boiler machines.
> 
> But there is an alternative to pump machines.
> 
> *4. Lever Machines*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *Popular lever machines include the Pavoni Europiccola (£300-£500), the Ponte Vecchio Lusso (£650 - £800), the Elektra Micocasa (£1000), the Olympia Cremina (£2750) and the Londinium I (£1600)*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> Lever machines use a manual lever connected to a piston to force water through the coffee. This is traditional method that preceded electric pumps and is still favoured in southern Italy and is now having something of a resurgence.
> 
> Advocates of lever machines claim that the column of water the piston pushes through the coffee extracts the very best from the coffee and the mechanical design of the system means temperature of water is reduced as the piston descends, reducing the undesirable elements that remain in the coffee as the extraction progresses. Lever machines have the additional advantage of being extremely reliable and almost silent.
> 
> In manual lever machines the lever is connected directly to the piston, in spring-driven machines it is the spring that does the work (lifting the lever tensions the spring ready for the next extraction). Like dual boiler and heat exchanger designs, lever machines will supply steam without waiting for the boiler to reheat - either by basic mechanical design (the mass of the group and cylinder cooling the boiler water to the correct temperature) or by using thermosiphon principles. The best lever machines also exhibit excellent temperature stability but, with some of the more inexpensive machines, keeping the temperature steady can be a bit hit or miss (or, some would say, an acquired skill).
> 
> The high price of some new lever machines is offset by the fact, because of simplicity of design and quality of engineering, they can literally last a lifetime.
> 
> *In conclusion: How much difference does it really make?*
> 
> 1. ALL the above machines are capable of making good espresso and cappucino, just on some it is easier than others. Generally speaking, the more sophisticated machines give more consistent results - it may take a bit more skill and fiddling to get a predictable result out of a smaller machine. Milk steaming is also easier on a bigger, more powerful machine.
> 
> 2. The more sophisticated machines not only are likely to give you more consistent results, they will also allow you to fine-tune the extraction to get the very best out of the beans. This can make the difference between good and great coffee.
> 
> 3. The bigger machines also allow you produce more coffees in a row and steam more milk without having to wait for the machine to heat up or cool down. If you are holding a dinner party and want to make half a dozen or more cappucinos, you may find it so tedious on a small machine that you end up offering them another form of coffee altogether.
> 
> Roland Denning November 2012


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## Glenn

The information is still relevant - some of the machines can be updated for sure.

What machine type were you interested in so we can focus on this section first?


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## BigBaines

Great info!


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## vabo1

Very informative - crazy how the pre-Philips Gaggia has such cult status.


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## Jari

Noted. Interesting guide.


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## fenom60

Thanks for the guide


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## mrC

awesome guide.


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## traidoco

Probably the best summary I've read about espresso machines!


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## Maurizio

A great guide for those who are new into the world of Espresso


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## SpressoSnob

Thanks for the great guide, I have been a home barista for a good few years and if coffee has taught me anything it's that there is always so much more to learn and understand.

My wife and I have recently moved from South Africa where the speciality coffe industry Has become relatively well established in the last 2-3 years and were a bit concerned about the coffee scene in Edinburgh. We have been pleasantly surprised, while not quite as developed there is a fantastic growing coffee culture!


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## PiediDiFormaggio

This is a great guide and food for thought!


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## Rairch

Great guide!

Thank you very much for putting it together.


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## kapuaskopi

good to know...thanks


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## Fleeds

Great guide. Just have to decide on my budget now.


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## jonny_sprigens

Hello, just joined the forum, wish i had found it earlier. I have just setup a mobile coffee van business and I have alot to learn! Hoping to get some snippets of wisdom and experience from all the coffee pros out there!!

Thanks, Jonny Sprigens


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## Maleko

Very helpful, Thankyou


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## ajsand

Really helpful. Thanks


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## Gorrion

Bit of a shock to find I was the only one browsing this thread just now. Makes me think I've got to get a life. Just joined, having received a Gaggia Classic for my 15th Wedding Anniversary. In love with it (and my wife). Still using shop bought expresso coffee but intend to get a grinder at an early opportunity. (Negotiations with my wife will be necessary as space in kitchen is at a premium.) I don't want to spend more than she did on the Gaggia Classic although I understand that is easy enough to do. What are my options? Can somebody tell me what are the expensive components of a grinder? Is it the cones? Is it the timer? is it the grind fineness control? What do I strip out to get to the essentials?


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## MildredM

Gorrion said:


> Bit of a shock to find I was the only one browsing this thread just now. Makes me think I've got to get a life. Just joined, having received a Gaggia Classic for my 15th Wedding Anniversary. In love with it (and my wife). Still using shop bought expresso coffee but intend to get a grinder at an early opportunity. (Negotiations with my wife will be necessary as space in kitchen is at a premium.) I don't want to spend more than she did on the Gaggia Classic although I understand that is easy enough to do. What are my options? Can somebody tell me what are the expensive components of a grinder? Is it the cones? Is it the timer? is it the grind fineness control? What do I strip out to get to the essentials?


Hi Gorrion,

Congrats on your Wedding Anniversary







and welcome here!

There's loads of advice on grinders in that section of the forum but I'm sure someone will be pleased to help if you can't find what you're after. Have a read-up then maybe pop a post up in that section!


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## invocr

Excellent, thanks!


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## Jonsco

Very informative thanks


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## amhenry84

thanks


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## eddie57

excellent guide glenn thanks


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## Planter

Great guide. Thank you.


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## AndyJH

Very helpful guide, thanks. Might be useful to do a similar guide for Grinders also?


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## Timpo

Very helpful, thanks


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## lidders

Very useful, now trying to learn how to use my Sage BE thanks.


----------



## MildredM

lidders said:


> Very useful, now trying to learn how to use my Sage BE thanks.


Hello lidders and welcome









There is a good account of the 'white glove' service in a thread over in the Sage Forum. Maybe it may be of use









(I am not sure if it is available for all Sage machines, still makes interesting reading)!


----------



## DoubleShot

Think the White Glove service is offered for both the Sage DB and The Oracle? Don't think it is for machines lower down the range though?

https://www.sageappliances.co.uk/whitegloveservice


----------



## MildredM

DoubleShot said:


> Think the White Glove service is offered for both the Sage DB and The Oracle? Don't think it is for machines lower down the range though?
> 
> https://www.sageappliances.co.uk/whitegloveservice


Just read it, thanks. What a pity, really. Understandable though.


----------



## nomilknosugar

Great post for beginners like me, although my Italian friends would shudder at the very last paragraph: cappuccino at a dinner party? Unthinkable!


----------



## chrisje69

That's super helpful.


----------



## General-S-1

Thanks for the guide, very helpful.


----------



## MikeL

Great guide, thanks


----------



## Belinda

Thanks for this - very informative.


----------



## cushdy78

Great guide Glenn - thanks for the summary!!


----------



## Raimundad

Brill bit of info! Thanks a lot!


----------



## dtapio

good summary! Thanks!


----------



## dimotaki

Excellent guide. Many thanks!


----------



## supertom44

Great intro post for newbies like myself, many thanks.


----------



## DaveP

Great guide, thank you Glenn


----------



## jogantas

Nice info!!!


----------



## measuretwicecutonce

Thanks for the information. Looks like I've got a bit of Reading to do


----------



## TheWilkieWay

Thanks for the guide, a good start but I feel I have much reading ahead of me!


----------



## mlambton

Just joined this forum and boy is there so much to learn. I bought a Europiccola in 2002 and couldnt really get the quality of cappucino that i hoped but with no other help i gave up with it and put it in the garage to be replaced by a nespresso set up. Been very happy with nespresso & aerocinno (I can feel readers shuddering) because of its ease of use and consistency. I have now retired (so have more time on my hands) and want to have another go with the Europiccola just as soon as i replace the seals in the headgear. Im now looking for a grinder (it needs to look good if im allowed to have it in the kitchen) and at the moment trying to decide if the Eurika Mignon mk2 is the one for me.

Thanks for the guide at least It appears i have a reasonable starter coffee machine (once i have sorted the seals)


----------



## The Asgard

Greetings,

Just joined the forums, hoping to learn more from you guys to make coffee taste even better!

Tassimo, Delongi ECAM Bean to Cup. The next machine will be based on what I can learn from you guys.


----------



## phoward

Great info as I didn't understand the difference between the heat exchanger and the double boiler. Now I do!


----------



## tonerei

Nice guide. Just joined have a gaggia classic and Mazzer Superjolly grinder. Going to Bellabarista shortly to look at 'expensive' coffee machines. Found this forum in the last week it is great.Huge amount of info on all things coffee. It is very like my 'other' forum tirnahifi


----------



## 0044

Thanks a lot for the info. I'm just looking to get an espresso machine. The guide has definitely helped me understand what kind of machines I should look at.


----------



## groconut

Thanks for such a detailed guide Glenn. This was the first post I have read on the forum, so a good start!

Does anyone have any experience with or views on the Sage Dual Boiler espresso machines? They are priced at around £1000.


----------



## igm45

groconut said:


> Thanks for such a detailed guide Glenn. This was the first post I have read on the forum, so a good start!
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with or views on the Sage Dual Boiler espresso machines? They are priced at around £1000.


Welcome,

They are generally well regarded on here. Do you have a grinder yet?


----------



## groconut

Hi,

Thank you. Yes I have Dualit electric grinder which is great for aeropress etc but not sure if it can grind find enough for espresso - what are your thoughts?


----------



## groconut

*Sorry I meant fine not find!


----------



## igm45

groconut said:


> *Sorry I meant fine not find!


No it won't be suitable for good espresso.

I would take a look at the Mignon or a 2nd hand commercial grinder such as the mazzer range


----------



## CoffeeStewieG

Thanks for this, learning more about coffee by the minute today. Still at filter brewing in my coffee career but the end game is definitely a lever machine. Thanks for the knowledge.


----------



## Nebar

Thanks for the introduction thread info, not sure the prices are current as the post was originally written 5 years ago. Been using a baratza encore and aeropress for a few years. Looking to upgrade and considering both bean to cup and manual or semi auto espresso machines.

Melitta bean to cup f750

sage duo pro

Rancilio Silvia

mostly drink black americano but will need to make the misses a latte at the weekend

would prefer to spend time enjoying the coffee rather than struggling to get a decent coffee


----------



## ashcroc

Nebar said:


> Thanks for the introduction thread info, not sure the prices are current as the post was originally written 5 years ago. Been using a baratza encore and aeropress for a few years. Looking to upgrade and considering both bean to cup and manual or semi auto espresso machines.
> 
> Melitta bean to cup f750
> 
> sage duo pro
> 
> Rancilio Silvia
> 
> mostly drink black americano bur will need to make the misses a latte at the weekend
> 
> would prefer to spend time enjoying the coffee rather than struggling to get a decent coffee


I wouldn't get a new Rancilio Silvia as they now have a 20 min cut off (for energy efficiency) which cuts in before it's fully heated up.


----------



## Estheroid

Thanks for the info - really useful! So much to learn!


----------



## Nebar

Thanks for the info ref the Silvia


----------



## Sadist

Thanks for all the info. Really useful for beginners.

Is there something similar presenting the grinders?


----------



## Gaz|

Sounds great, might get the classic to start off with and a decent grinder. Thanks for the info.


----------



## dexies

Excellent information, thanks


----------



## Mouzone

Really useful guide, I wish I'd come across it (and this site) sooner. I've been fumbling around Google, reading reviews of machines vs my budget and it just so happens I had decided to go for the Gaggia Classic. After reading this thread, I feel like it's a solid choice for my first machine and initial budget.

However, I'm personally not able to find any around the price stated in the thread (other than ebay). It seems like they retail about £250 nowadays (new anyway)? I don't know how safe a purchase off of ebay is..

Thanks for the effort in putting this together.


----------



## Rhys

Mouzone said:


> Really useful guide, I wish I'd come across it (and this site) sooner. I've been fumbling around Google, reading reviews of machines vs my budget and it just so happens I had decided to go for the Gaggia Classic. After reading this thread, I feel like it's a solid choice for my first machine and initial budget.
> 
> However, I'm personally not able to find any around the price stated in the thread (other than ebay). It seems like they retail about £250 nowadays (new anyway)? I don't know how safe a purchase off of ebay is..
> 
> Thanks for the effort in putting this together.


I wouldn't bother getting a new one as they work different and aren't as good (in some people opinion). Plenty come up for sale, and the Pre-Philips ones with a bigger OPV are the ones to get.


----------



## Mouzone

Rhys said:


> I wouldn't bother getting a new one as they work different and aren't as good (in some people opinion). Plenty come up for sale, and the Pre-Philips ones with a bigger OPV are the ones to get.


Thanks for that Rhys, I did get the sense that that might be the case but I didn't have it spelled out before.

Is Pre-Philips any before the 2015 model?


----------



## sonnyredster

Very useful guide, been using my porlex mini for a few years now for aeropress and have finally decided to upgrade to an electric.


----------



## Mr Beanie

This is good to read. I bought a Delonghi bean to cup machine about 2 years ago for about £350. Its convenient, but now I'm more interested in playing at trying to be a barista its not the best. So I'm looking to upgrade soon.


----------



## Redlorryyellow

Just wanted to say what a wonderfully helpful thread!


----------



## Psticks

Great thread, although I've pulled the trigger on a Gaggia Classic off sales area and I feel, improvitus striking already.


----------



## kdr152

Great post with 'to the point' information. Not purchased anything yet and will be referring to the detail pre-purchase! Glad I found before I bought a new Classic/ powder-coated it/ Added a PID/ Upgraded the steamer and realised I had no idea how to brew!


----------



## li69b7

great very helpfull


----------



## lestat132

A really great source of info and one that guided me to buying a small used commercial HX machine straight off the bat having never heard of them before, that I loved and made amazing espressos with for many years


----------



## crxxx1

Good info!


----------



## prv20

Great guide, thank you!


----------



## Roobarb

Nice post. By the time I had read this, I had already worked this out myself. But if I had started here, it would have saved me a lot of time.


----------



## li69b7

great and nice post


----------



## Andycoffee

Great post. Lots of information quick to read and understand. ??


----------



## xpresso

Hello Folks.

New in here, how this forum has expanded seeing a list of machines in the 'Read this first' and then seeing what's on the market now after seven years.

JWL.


----------



## spanspoon

nice 1!!


----------



## Bevnewts

Thanks great advice


----------



## Carlo7378

Hi all, new in this forum.

Looking forward to learn asking a lot of question


----------



## somewhat

very helpful! thanks


----------



## jay.anderson

Newbie very interested in making better espresso. Living in calif, US. Expobar Lever and Vario. Getting erics thermometrr for better readings of e1 group tem. Looking for recommendations on thresds, new to tapatalk also..


----------



## j53michael

Great guide, thanks.


----------



## steelartsa

> Dear Roland,
> 
> Thanks for such an informative post. I am starting out (had enough of instant coffee) and appreciate the advice you have given. Tempted by the Fracino Cherub for home use. The Piccino also looked great but I am put off that machine because I don't think you can descale it at home and it seems to be a very similar price to the Cherub. Still got to sort out a suitable grinder?
> 
> best wishes
> 
> Mike


Mike, I'm new to this forum too and am looking for a possible replacement machine for my Dedica. The Fracino Piccino really appeals but your comments on possible descaling problems were a bit worrying. I checked out the user manual (available at nisbets.co.uk) and it says "If the water filter has been used correctly and replaced regularly the machine should not require descaling," but Fracino do offer a descaling service should it be required. So the Piccino might make my shortlist after all


----------



## Ninelives

Great guide thanks


----------



## Greydad

@Glenn shouldn't this be a sticky?


----------



## jim d

hi, new member here. congrats on a great site for coffee lovers. I started with instant coffee! moved on to a stove top coffee pot that 'burped' and 'glugged' as it was brewing. Forty or so years later,retired and had time on my hands and discovered making espresso at home. Bought a Rancillio Silvia machine and a Rocky grinder and started trying to learn some of the theory and art of making good coffee. A year or so back moved on to the Sage double boiler and a Vario grinder and have enjoyed the coffee very much. I am just about to buy a GENE CAFE from Bella barista and when searching the web came upon this CFUK site. Will look forward to reading up on all the posts and advice sections. hope i'm posting my first post in the right place!!


----------



## Mradrock

Got to say a great intro guide for a newbie like me- thanks!


----------



## Glenn

Made sticky again - thanks


----------



## Bullettooth82

Great starter guide thanks!


----------



## Bullettooth82

I'm a noob here but enjoying learning


----------



## Quenteagle

First post I read on this forum. Really helped narrow down the first choices of espresso machines. Do we have a grinder guide somewhere? I really took me a lot of reading to understand that grinders were equally if not more important the the machine.


----------



## ashcroc

Quenteagle said:


> First post I read on this forum. Really helped narrow down the first choices of espresso machines. Do we have a grinder guide somewhere? I really took me a lot of reading to understand that grinders were equally if not more important the the machine.


Here's the grinder version of this thread.


----------



## Edilemma

Such great information here, thank you. It's so exciting to me to find this hot-bed of people taking coffee seriously. My friends don't really get my coffee obsession and why I go to so much trouble to make my own espresso. After 5 years living in Australia, where it's practically impossible to find bad coffee, I simply couldn't fact drinking the sad excuse for coffee that most people here accept as 'coffee'. I did a barista course in Sydney and set up to create a home coffee station as soon as I could using Pact Coffee beans. Now I'm in the market for a new machine, and I've got my sights set on a Gaggia Classic...thanks to this forum!


----------



## namsri19

Thank you Glenn, great post for begginers like me. Been using a Moka pot for the last 4 years, time to move up into some "proper" coffee!


----------



## theotterspocket

Excellent post for putting things into perspective! Thanks


----------



## ibesteveb

very good write-up! thank you!


----------



## johnnyka7

Great post, thanks a lot for sharing !


----------



## Kenben

It was Glenns post that finally made me buy a Gaggia Classic as my first machine. It arrived today, along with a gaggia grinder (both secondhand) and I have already had them in bits to see how they work!

Plenty of mods out there for people like me that like to tinker, and cheap enough that they won't break the bank. Happy times ahead!


----------



## chuffer75

Thanks for these posts - very helpful indeed


----------



## chris_the_glove

amazingly useful resource thank you... just about to hit the next level of coffee geekery and make my own water (a la barista hustle) so we'll see how that goes


----------



## JimmyDimitris

Good afternoon all.

Please can someone advise me where I can add a topic to the forum?

I cant seem to find the link on this website.

Thank you


----------



## LondonGuy

Haha good luck Chris we seem to be doing pretty much the same


----------



## JIMFISH

Ok , I have read the info Glenn, thankyou.

I am hoping to stick with an aeropress for the time being and try different beans in it. MIGHT look to get a more expensive machine in the future!


----------



## Shibbi

Good intro, thanks for the post...


----------



## chimejar

Thanks for the comprehensive intro!


----------



## limpetpete

Thanks for the info! Think for the price I'll start like everyone else... Gaggia Classic all the way!


----------



## Sefroniauk

This forum has been such a brilliant resource for me since I fell down the coffee rabbit hole - thank you! How is it that the more you learn, the more you realise how much you don't know?! ;-)


----------



## mzda2

Thanks, v useful information for a complete newbie.


----------



## Maximus

I have an Aeropress but no grinder yet. I can't decide whether I should get a hand grinder or an electric one.


----------



## Doc_Shultz

Thank you for this great post. I have a Gaggia Classic, but one day, I plan to get a dual boiler unit. I will definitely look at the units you have listed in this post!


----------



## MrLatte

Brilliant guide, very glad i decided to go on a forum before purchasing as i now know what to look out for


----------



## SoufianeSouf

Thanks, very useful


----------



## archcherub

wow. the first thread is so much full of information. i would take days to experiment with my machine lol


----------



## Gingerbean

Hello,

I've just signed up. Thanks for the post. I have some questions so I'll be posting them soon. This site has been very useful so far.


----------



## Edt Lee

Very informative. Thanks.


----------



## Weymouth

Hi,

Great thread. No mention of Sage in the first post. So either they weren't around then or aren't rated?


----------



## hotmetal

Weymouth said:


> Hi,
> 
> Great thread. No mention of Sage in the first post. So either they weren't around then or aren't rated?


This thread (certainly the first post) was from before Sage was around - or at least, before anyone on here knew anything about them. Nowadays they have a fairly loyal following and reasonable reputation (helped in part by very good warranty from John Lewis or Lakeland).

___

Eat, drink and be merry


----------



## Neversleep

spot on the information on this post, thanks


----------



## Gareth Evans

Thanks for the info


----------



## shadosc

Great info. Now I see why my Moka's coffee has bit a bit of a disappointment


----------



## alphahelix

Great reading, a lot of useful info in there, thanks


----------



## ant2

Thanks for the intro


----------



## henrystclair

Thank you, great job!


----------



## Big John

Thanks for the intro. Luckily I bought a Gaggia Classic several years ago, and stumbled across this site when I found the need to service it. Looks like I've got a reasonable starting point to achieve some good results, and am already thinking of pimping up my Gaggia with some mods on this site.


----------



## ChrisMG

Good informative post for us noobies.


----------



## IanGB

Thank you, a good place to start for me


----------



## Nate

Hi all. Always loved the smell of coffee growing up. Now mid-30's and I've been drinking coffee for last 5yrs. Main love would be espresso-based drinks (flat white), but I love all methods of making coffee. Each having their own expression, as does each bean. Not forgetting Glenn, great job you're doing here.


----------



## Wolvesnev

A good introductory post for coffee newbies. Might be worth updating to reflect current prices, which have certainly increased since 2011! Currently have a 10 year old Delonghi ES330 and a Rocky, but now looking to upgrade to a proper machine.


----------



## neilos81

Great info, like others, been hunting around google and review sites and ended up more confused than when i started! Will continue to read through the posts and learn..


----------



## mr-bean

Great forum, nice to be a member. Been reading all day, decided to buy a Gaggia Classic.

Gaggia UK Direct has a great xmas deal on a Classic RI9403/18 for £190. Then when the Christmas bank balance is restored, I'll then read up all about grinders.


----------



## Mrboots2u

mr-bean said:


> Great forum, nice to be a member. Been reading all day, decided to buy a Gaggia Classic.
> 
> Gaggia UK Direct has a great xmas deal on a Classic RI9403/18 for £190. Then when the Christmas bank balance is restored, I'll then read up all about grinders.


Welcome but save your cash , new gaggia are not worth it and

Machine and no grinder = rubbish coffee


----------



## mr-bean

Mrboots2u said:


> Welcome but save your cash , new gaggia are not worth it and
> 
> Machine and no grinder = rubbish coffee


If you can no longer buy the older model, what do you buy?, I don't like second hand, you normally inherit some one else's problems.

I see second hand machines for sale here, but then what are the sellers buying?


----------



## Mrboots2u

mr-bean said:


> If you can no longer buy the older model, what do you buy?, I don't like second hand, you normally inherit some one else's problems.
> 
> I see second hand machines for sale here, but then what are the sellers buying?


Gaggias are pretty bomb proof if well looked after.

People buy better machines not straight swaps for other entry level ones . It's like any hobby there is always "better".


----------



## ashcroc

mr-bean said:


> If you can no longer buy the older model, what do you buy?, I don't like second hand, you normally inherit some one else's problems.
> 
> I see second hand machines for sale here, but then what are the sellers buying?


There's a new model coming out (was supposed to be October but hasn't made it to the shelves over here yet) that's closer to the pre2015 varient. No reviews on it yet & while it has a proper steam arm, it's still running mechanical thermostats so would need to temp surf or fit a PID (which may be problematic due to nobody doing it yet).


----------



## mr-bean

Thanks for the help guys, until a week ago I had a 4 year old Sage BE but it went wrong, and I can't justify repair price, I spoke to Sage and they won't sell me any spare parts, agents only I was told.

So I'm going to get a Gaggia that I can work on at a reasonable cost. Found a refirbished pre 2015 classic from Gaggia UK direct for £199, do you think it's worth it?


----------



## ashcroc

mr-bean said:


> Thanks for the help guys, until a week ago I had a 4 year old Sage BE but it went wrong, and I can't justify repair price, I spoke to Sage and they won't sell me any spare parts, agents only I was told.
> 
> So I'm going to get a Gaggia that I can work on at a reasonable cost. Found a refirbished pre 2015 classic from Gaggia UK direct for £199, do you think it's worth it?


You could spend less getting one from the for sale section of this fine forum which will most likely already have a silvia steam wand on it & possibly other mods/extras too (you only need a couple more posts to access it). It's just a question of whether the warranty you get from gaggia direct is worth it to you.

Don't forget you'll also be needing a grinder.


----------



## Flashheart8

I've not been through the forums properly yet, would you say a one touch bean to cup machine ie melitta barista ts smart will be sacrilege here?


----------



## hotmetal

Probably but that shouldn't stop you. It's only sacrilege insofar as a large % of members really have gone down the rabbit hole and no expense or fuss is too much. We talk a lot about measuring, tweaking, prepping, stirring, even sieving grinds to get even particle size distribution, and refracting the results. So, in that sense, asking which B2C to buy is like asking a hard-core photographer forum which point-n-shoot to buy. You might get the occasional comment that could be interpreted as sarky (although often it's not meant that way). The point is though, there is nothing illegitimate about a one-button wonder, and indeed it should be about the beans not the machines. The Melitta Varianza (I think?) was the subject of a thorough test, engineering and user review by DavecUK who spoke favourably of it. If that's the solution that gets you/ your household drinking good coffee that you enjoy, you could do worse than a Melitta. The flip side is that you may miss out on the engagement/fun/rabbit hole obsession that enthusiasts might try to pull you into!

NB I don't know much about that machine you mention. Whilst Dave was able to recommend another Melitta machine, the one you mention may be different in crucial areas. Or not. Gap in my knowledge there so I can't actually just answer your question like you hoped, hence the long philosophical reply hinting at the variance between the machine in question and the forum ethos/ bias towards manual kit. And anyway it's all about the drink at the end and all the great beans you can experience.

___

Eat, drink and be merry


----------



## Flashheart8

Thank you for the informative reply, to be honest I've never had a proper coffee (unless you count Costa, which I highly doubt), I'm coming from a Tassimo then Nespresso and now would like to see what the difference is.

I can see myself progressing to a grinder and Espresso machine but for now I just don't have the time and a one touch fix will have to do.


----------



## mr-bean

I took the plunge and bought a new Classic 2015 RI9403/18 Wednesday. I spent 3 hours trying some beans that I ground and in that time, was making better coffee than the Sage BE ever did.

Today I took off that pannarello milk frother and used just the metal section to get a nice micro foam and ordered a Rancilio wand and VST-18 to improve it more.

I'm like a kid with a new toy and it's great.


----------



## jimbojohn55

Flashheart8 said:


> I've not been through the forums properly yet, would you say a one touch bean to cup machine ie melitta barista ts smart will be sacrilege here?


yes unless you like everything to be convenient, it wont give you the option to have the fun of developing skills, but its as good as your going to get from a Bean2cup, expect some sharp devaluation and a very limited machine life span as well.


----------



## Sugden18

Thanks for the excellent thread, amazing it's still relevant 6 years later. I can only echo the comments of it would be nice for a small update as it's the first place I came too after joining. In regards to price and adding a few of the popular machines mentioned on here a lot like sage etc.


----------



## Chadatron

Great thread, really good to get an idea of all the different machine types, really helpful as I research my machine purchase.


----------



## Joha

Thank you. Pretty much answers the basic question everyone is looking an answer for. Would be nice to have similar thread for grinders sndcoffee beans.


----------



## hotmetal

Joha said:


> Thank you. Pretty much answers the basic question everyone is looking an answer for. Would be nice to have similar thread for grinders sndcoffee beans.


Grinders

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcoffeeforums%2Eco%2Euk%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D17071&share_tid=17071&share_fid=6813&share_type=t

Coffee beans can't really be discussed in quite the same way as they're not manufactured or technically different in that sense, and the price doesn't bear much relation to the enjoyment you'll get (because it's subjective, although of course there is a price/ quality correlation, but also rarity value, roaster reputation, quantity purchased etc)

Beans are discussed all over the forum every day (especially in the beans section). You want to be buying freshly roasted whole beans, decide the roasting style you prefer, and the flavours you're looking for, and then narrow it down to a terroir and process. Lots to research there! Look for the banner ads from forum sponsor roasters, or the threads that recommend roasters, maybe join up with LSOL if you like lightly roasted fruity coffee, or take out a subscription with a roaster that offers a mystery element, such as Dog & Hat. Half the forum is about beans really, as it can't fit into a beginners guide thread. Enjoy the trip!

___

Eat, drink and be merry


----------



## Joha

Thank you hotmeal. I have been reading the forum for the past hour and realised how much information is available here.


----------



## Shaf

Hi all

I have just joined the forum. Cant wait to buy my first coffee machine and start a coffee journey.excellent guide. I am also a novice when it comes to forum.

Thank you


----------



## sam749

Really good summary of options available to people. I'm new to this forum. I started my journey with Ms. Silvia and upgraded to Elektra Micro Casa a Leva last year. I have pulled some incredible shots with the Elektra but I struggle sometimes with temperature stability. Considering a dual boiler machine. Look forward to participating in this forum!


----------



## ContraCoffee

Thank you all for the contributions and guides included! Excitement overload about getting stuck in to a new machine


----------



## bdc

Very useful information, definitely a job well done!


----------



## Beanbrain

hotmetal said:


> Probably but that shouldn't stop you. It's only sacrilege insofar as a large % of members really have gone down the rabbit hole and no expense or fuss is too much. ....The flip side is that you may miss out on the engagement/fun/rabbit hole obsession that enthusiasts might try to pull you into!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking forward to jumping down the rabbit hole! LOL


----------



## hotmetal

Hahaha! When you get to the bottom, remember to check that those things that look like lightly roasted beans actually are coffee. That rabbit might still be in there!!

___

Eat, drink and be merry


----------



## Mardinor

Really helpful. Thanks


----------



## Steamer

Hi Guys,

I joined the forum recently and found this sticky MASSIVELY helpful. I've just purchased, stripped down and serviced/descaled my 2001 1475w Classic and am utterly stoked with the results. Came over from the dark side of pods after being a bit disgusted with myself in regard of the amount of plastic wastage. The side effect of this move is I am now drinking coffee of a far better quality than I can purchase anywhere near me. Thanks for such a great pool of knowledge. Decent grinder next ...








£££


----------



## Wilko 4473

Nice informative post. It's what got me to the forum to begin with so pleased to have some solid info on espresso machines.


----------



## Paulct

New member here from Hull and you have converted me and just ordered Gaggia Classic 2015 to upgrade from basic expresso machine. Also ordered a burr grinder too so can dive in and have fun.


----------



## emmaghil

read, thanks


----------



## MogCoffee

This is a really fantastic resource!!

Am relatively new to the forum and am reading with interest.

Next project for me is courses to increase knowledge. Has anyone here done the scae diploma /courses or recommend a good place to start? (For 'enthusiast' rather than prof)


----------



## RobMcP

Hi All,

I've just joined the forum. I've had my Gaggia Classic with Iberital MC2 grinder for around 5 years now. I think I'm getting the best coffee I can with my current setup. I was looking to do the PID upgrade on it, but seeing the cost of the kits, I thought it might be better to save the money towards a better machine. The guide at the top of this page is quite good. It was easy to decide on the Classic, but when you start looking at HX and dual boiler machines, there is so much more choice, it's really hard to know what to go for.


----------



## Sam123

Thanks for the advice, really useful info


----------



## Stuerv

I like to drink coffee as the locals do in Indonesia. Indonesian coffee is delicious too!


----------



## Sammy87

Amazing guide here, thanks for the info


----------



## Andrusik

Thanks Glenn, Gaggia Classic is tempting.


----------



## aluna

Excited to be here and start learning about home roasting.


----------



## JCuniowski

Thanks for the info!


----------



## BobbyBarista

Great intro, new to coffee but excited about learning, thanks


----------



## nickhdesign

I've only recently joined this forum and found this post very useful. I'm only at the very start of my coffee adventure so there were a number of points i didn't know before. Thanks.


----------



## Huxley

Extremely helpful for the novice - thanks for sharing


----------



## Carman

Great information, every little bit helps, this is a great start!


----------



## nigeljh

Useful info, thanks


----------



## vcb

Thanks!


----------



## Komatoes

Useful info thanks


----------



## dolcefarniente

I loved the simple string of facts in a clear way. There was no hint of ego in this article and I learned lot.

Thanks again Glenn.


----------



## Tiburon

Thanks for this nice introduction!


----------



## arang

As a newbie looking for an espresso machine, this is more than helpful as an introduction. Thank you.


----------



## Alivejohnny5

Hi All! First off - I gotta come clean, I can't drink coffee. Yup, I'm missing out on the whole coffee-ecosystem deal







HOWEVER... I am a self confessed tea addict who has whittled away many an hour drinking tea on the companies time rather than typing and doing what I'm supposed to do. So with that in mind, and given that there is limited forums discussing the love of tea, I was wondering if I might get a bit of help and direction on importing tea to the UK? I have successful environmental consultancy which has provided a roof over my head, however I have always had the urge to import tea into the UK. Aside from the obvious customs issues with Brexit, are there any major pitfalls I should be aware of before embarking on my tea importing journey? Any advice would be appreciated! Your time won't be wasted as this idea is going to happen - its been brewing for a long time, so I'm determined to have a go!!


----------



## naio

Thanks for sharing this amazing on-boarding bible


----------



## nospoon

Thanks for this very helpful introduction!


----------



## danieldriver3

Great intro -- excited to venture down the espresso rabbit hole!


----------



## skibro

Thanks, useful summary!


----------



## Smith

Lots of information.


----------



## AbuRai

I am new member in this Forum site. I have read this post first time and got more enjoy. Thanks.


----------



## Blackd0g

really good guide!


----------



## Cyclone71

Great information, I wonder what set up I could get for £800-£1000 nowadays?


----------



## Mik3

Very useful read, perhaps the prices could do with a little updating though


----------



## garethuk

thank you very helpful.


----------



## Arnold Trousers

great, thank you


----------



## Marocchino

Good article on machine types.


----------



## Marocchino

Thanks, an interesting article on machine types.


----------



## Marocchino

Thanks, an interesting article on coffee machine types.


----------



## flatwh8

Good info and a great place for newbies!


----------



## Caffeine fan

Very useful - thanks.


----------



## Tami

Ok


----------



## DDoe

Been here a few days and have re-read this really useful guide again. Thanks to Glenn.

My intention was to get a "keeper" machine for my birthday next year but not so sure now.

I don't have much room so am looking for a small footprint machine. Thought a Lelit Mara would be the keeper I was after, still think it would but maybe it's a bit ambitious for a 1st machine. The other option is to try and pick up a Gaggia classic 2nd hand.

Whatever I do, a move from my present Lavazza pod machine is on the cards when I retire and have more time on my hands.


----------



## ashcroc

DDoe said:


> Been here a few days and have re-read this really useful guide again. Thanks to Glenn.
> 
> My intention was to get a "keeper" machine for my birthday next year but not so sure now.
> 
> I don't have much room so am looking for a small footprint machine. Thought a Lelit Mara would be the keeper I was after, still think it would but maybe it's a bit ambitious for a 1st machine. The other option is to try and pick up a Gaggia classic 2nd hand.
> 
> Whatever I do, a move from my present Lavazza pod machine is on the cards when I retire and have more time on my hands.


If you can afford it, a Lelit Mara wouldn't be a bad choice for first machine (or a keeper for that matter). The more expensive machines are easier to use as they haven't been built to such a budget.


----------



## DDoe

Thanks ashcroc, always nice to know my thinking is heading in the right direction.

It doesn't hurt that the Mara is shiney and looks like a proper espresso machine into the bargain.

I can't see a change in my coffee machine status until about this time next year. It will give me time to save my pennies and call it a big birthday present. I'll have more time to spend playing, sorry perfecting my technique, as well. I hope to get a niche zero grinder too.


----------



## Dazzer

Great info and advice thanks


----------



## Simon

Thanks for taking the time to put this together.


----------



## Mobycoffee

Awesome, Great informative introduction Thank you!


----------



## wizdrose234

Spoiler



thank you very much


----------



## mdeyn93

Thanks Glen, an insightful post. I'm glad to be on here currently after having worked in the coffee industry for a while - definitely time I joined the forum life! I started as a barista but happy to be roasting at a new micro-roastery in South London currently. If anyone wants a special code to receive a discount on what we're producing reply back to this post or send me a message, it would be great to hear your thoughts on what we are doing. Our website is www.brewcoffeeplus.com if people are interested. Thanks, m


----------



## msmi

Thank you for that highly informative write up. Easy to read and understand.


----------



## dizzy78ro

A very useful article on espresso machines. After reading everything I decided within 10 minutes what type of machine I would like to have. Many thanks for all the effort.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


----------



## tweek

Great info for an espresso newbie


----------



## Boej007

Thanks for the very informative post. I've just joined the forum yesterday and already my knowledge in coffee has dramatically increased. I must confess, i've owned a classic since 2013 and clearly been doing things wrong. Judging by a lot of Gaggia related posts a full service and descale's immediately required an OPV adjustment, a steam wand upgrade and £££ grinder to add too.

Better get moving ?


----------



## DDoe

Boej007 said:


> Better get moving ?


 Better get saving, more like ?.


----------



## Boej007

? yes I can see a few £s being put to good use.


----------



## rsformatc

Thanks for the summary, time to start getting my hands dirty!


----------



## Simon

Looking to get back into a home setup! after:










and then


----------



## devenm96

Hi,

I'm new to this forum. For some reason I'm not able to reply to other posts like I am able to this one.

For eg., I want to reply to this post for asking more details but it does not give me an option to do so? What am I doing wrong?

Help is much appreciated.

Cheers

Dev

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48122-vesuvius-offer/page/2/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=700925&embedComment=700925&embedDo=findComment#comment-700925


----------



## MildredM

devenm96 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm new to this forum. For some reason I'm not able to reply to other posts like I am able to this one.
> 
> For eg., I want to reply to this post for asking more details but it does not give me an option to do so? What am I doing wrong?
> 
> Help is much appreciated.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dev
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48122-vesuvius-offer/page/2/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=700925&embedComment=700925&embedDo=findComment#comment-700925


 I am not sure you can post in the For Sale section until you have a certain amount of posts.


----------



## devenm96

MildredM said:


> I am not sure you can post in the For Sale section until you have a certain amount of posts.


 So do I need to create a post/ topic or just comments? And how many?


----------



## 9719

devenm96 said:


> Hi,
> I'm new to this forum. For some reason I'm not able to reply to other posts like I am able to this one.
> For eg., I want to reply to this post for asking more details but it does not give me an option to do so? What am I doing wrong?
> 
> Help is much appreciated.
> 
> Cheers
> Dev


I'm going to guess that you need to up your post count to five, only two more and then try again


----------



## MildredM

devenm96 said:


> So do I need to create a post/ topic or just comments? And how many?


 Just join in on a thread that interests you. I am not sure - 5 or 10 posts. I may be incorrect though.


----------



## devenm96

Hahaha sorry then I'm just going to use your post to bring the couny upto 5.



********** said:


> devenm96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> I'm new to this forum. For some reason I'm not able to reply to other posts like I am able to this one.
> For eg., I want to reply to this post for asking more details but it does not give me an option to do so? What am I doing wrong?
> 
> Help is much appreciated.
> 
> Cheers
> Dev
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to guess that you need to up your post count to five, only two more and then try again
Click to expand...


----------



## 9719

^^^^^
One more to go, how about a thanks then your in


----------



## devenm96

devenm96 said:


> Hahaha sorry then I'm just going to use your post to bring the couny upto 5.


 *count


----------



## devenm96

********** said:


> ^^^^^
> One more to go, how about a thanks then your in


 You absolute LEGEND! Was almost about to get fed up and leave the forum.

There really should be some guidance on this for new members.


----------



## 9719

We don't like encouraging folk to spend huge wads of hard earned on shiny stuff


----------



## MildredM

devenm96 said:


> You absolute LEGEND! Was almost about to get fed up and leave the forum.
> 
> There really should be some guidance on this for new members.


 People usually ask if they're stuck. Saves searching


----------



## zomarzi

That's a great platform to start off on, easy and informative read, many thanks.


----------



## Jayteepix

Very useful for a beginner like me - Thanks Glenn


----------



## jafa1970

Great read for a newbie just getting into the weird world of coffee, thanks.


----------



## nsarge

Hi all,

I've been lurking for a few weeks having been tempted by various machines in the Black Friday sales (Sage Barista Express) and then went down the rabbit hole of research on here!

Hoping to learn a bit and keep an eye on the classifieds section given separates, even at entry level, seem to be better than the bean to cup options.


----------



## Rickv

nsarge said:


> Hi all,
> I've been lurking for a few weeks having been tempted by various machines in the Black Friday sales (Sage Barista Express) and then went down the rabbit hole of research on here!
> Hoping to learn a bit and keep an eye on the classifieds section given separates, even at entry level, seem to be better than the bean to cup options.


That's what I did. Ended up with a used classic and a Mignon.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lunoar48

Joined today ... finding all of this info very helpful in deciding where to look next.


----------



## nsarge

Rickv said:


> That's what I did. Ended up with a used classic and a Mignon.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Your set up looks great! That would be ideal, provided I could find decent 2nd hand options.


----------



## Border_all

A most informative guide thank you.


----------



## ohnoh18

Just joined. Great info. Thank you


----------



## DavecUK

ohnoh18 said:


> Just joined. Great info. Thank you


 You will be at 5 posts before you know it


----------



## ohnoh18

Exactly! lol. Just purchased a Gaggia Classic and looking forward to it. Will be on this site frequently, me thinks


----------



## Ilaher

Joined today. Amazed by the wealth of knowledge on here


----------



## ADreamer

Great info.thank you.


----------



## SimonG

Hi all,

Just joined - currently have a ROK manual espresso maker and grinder.

Just added an MC2 grinder and trying to decide between a Classic or Silvia as my starter machine.

It's only me that drinks coffee in the house & I prefer to drink espresso or americano - so steam not a huge deal although I know they both can be quite capable with this.

cheers,

Simon


----------



## makinshaw

Very useful advice. Prices could do with updating though - the UK made machines are not anywhere near £600 now!


----------



## jschenk

Great info for a newbie like me, thanks!


----------



## jan55

Thanks for info, very useful!


----------



## Wilko327

Thanks and hello from a newbie ✋?


----------



## JOeG

Useful guide thank you


----------



## davidmire

useful guide thanks!


----------



## BadDad

Thanks for the guide, very useful


----------



## Fadox

Excellent info in this topic, thanks!


----------



## Kam760

Thanks. Extremely useful for a newcomer!


----------



## If Up North

Hey all

i'm looking to post about my la spaziale s40 i'm looking to sell. how would one go about being able to do that?

great content on here. thorough and informative


----------



## 4515

If Up North said:


> Hey all
> 
> i'm looking to post about my la spaziale s40 i'm looking to sell. how would one go about being able to do that?
> 
> great content on here. thorough and informative


 Best way is to get involved in the forum, get a bit of on line reputation, introduce yourself and get your post count up which will give you access to the for sale area


----------



## thecardella

Hey, I am new to the forum and this was a good introduction  I'll create a new post to ask more details about my newly second hand purchased machine


----------



## Blackberry Butterscotch

Very helpful guide. *Newbie question* As I'm only interested in making espresso and not any drinks with milk, are there any alternative machines to consider that don't have steam wands at all?


----------



## Mark92

Hello, I've just joined the site, this is a very good guide.


----------



## pantherish

Sorry total newbie question but I'm unable to post in the for sale/wanted section, and I can't find out what I need to do to unlock this feature. Where are the guides etc that explain this?


----------



## Dosani1977

Hi. Also a complete newbie, and bought a used Gaggia Classic a few days ago as we're all in lockdown :-(. Hope every one is safe. Now looking for a cheap-ish grinder - I have an old Krupps GVX2 that I used for pour over and it worked great. How do I reply to items for sale? Is there a minimum amount of posts I need to make first? Thanks. Amit


----------



## jaminson

Excellent guide Glenn.


----------



## Draganime

Thank you for the guide!!


----------



## georgo

Awesome guide for rookies, thanks.


----------



## Sarzah

Great guide, thank you!


----------



## GeorgiD

Very concise guide, thanks!


----------



## Elliot

Thank you for the guide, it was informative.


----------



## Forcoffee?

Hello, I'm a new member, looking to upgrade my DeLonghi Esam to a Gaggia Classic and grinder.

Basically working on my post count until I can use the wanted section.

I'm also a 90% decaf guy. There, I said it. And I don't care either.


----------



## Forcoffee?

Narrowly missed a Classic Gold on eBay last week, which went for nearly £190.

Then I realised there are better deals to be had. Saw a Classic and MC2 that went on gumtree last december for less than £200. If only I'd known..


----------



## Forcoffee?

No point crying over spilt milk, right?


----------



## Forcoffee?

I've spent a decent amount of time fiddling with my DeLonghi. While I thought it was half-decent for a cortado, when I started tasting the naked espresso, it was bitter as hell, and I couldn't make that go away.


----------



## Forcoffee?

I'd bought what I thought were good beans - all decaf and with good reviews on Amazon. But now I see I need to get them as freshly roasted as possible.

There's a roastery (?) near me, horsebox coffee, so I think I'll try them.

My main long-term favourite for decaf is Waitrose Peruvian. And I've tried a few.

Anyone else here mostly decaf, and have you found any killer beans??


----------



## Forcoffee?

Currently drinking Illy decaf, ground in my Hario and Aeropressed. Tastes okay with milk and sugar, but still bitter naked.

Opened the beans yesterday. They must pack them in nitrogen, right? Is it the beans??


----------



## trb08150

Really good overview of different machine types - thanks very much. Currently got a Rancilio Silvia V5 and Rocky but looking to upgrade this imminently. Fancy the Leita marax and possibly a eureka mignon specialita. Amazing how quickly upgraditis sets in!


----------



## aws92

Thanks for this. Really helpful.

Abdul


----------



## MadcoffeeMan

Great Read thanks for the info


----------



## Mepl

great introduction, thank you!


----------



## lexathon

Thanks for this. Really helpful.


----------



## NikC

great guide, thanks.


----------



## potter985

Thank you very much!!! I'm a newbie and this was very helpful!


----------



## KeithS

What about thermoblock / thermocoil system?


----------



## Mm391

Looking at purchasing a Sage DTP or Dual Boiler, looking forward to experimenting. I will spend more money on a grinder as I have read a decent grinder is far more important than the machine itself.


----------



## woof woof

Good morning everyone from a newbie who has become thoroughly confused over watching youtube video after youtube video! Was looking to get a sage bambino but the prices and availability seem to have rapidly shifted. Now thinking of Sage DTP. Mostly want espressos and Americans but also don't want to wait 10 minutes and more mins for boilers to heat up, and of course delicate kitchen space negotiations to manage with SWMBO where the UN may need to step in. Off to the Sage forum but wanted to say hello from East Sussex! Be safe everyone.


----------



## Andy87

Thank you for this! Really helpful first thread to see for someone who is just about to start their journey into real coffee. Now to find the right starter machine and from what I am already reading the inevitable upgrades in the future 🙂


----------



## cmollenbach

Thx, great guidance


----------



## little_rob

Great intro, thanks


----------



## Rainmac13

Hi guys, I have been lurking a little while on here after falling down a massive coffee rabbit hole during lockdown!

I genuinely didn't realise there was so much to it, I love the science behind it and find it quite addictive. Thought I'd introduce myself and say hi! I have loads of questions but I've found most of the answers on here so I'll hold out for now!

Look forward to getting more involved with the coffee community

Rob


----------



## Wolftasy

Just stumbled across this forum. Lot's of great info. Had no idea it could be so complicated!


----------



## spookym

Great info and advice... now just need to decide on which upgrade!


----------



## Instantnoodles

Nice guide!!!!


----------



## Suru82

Very useful information where I can find something more but about automatic coffee machines for example i have jura e8


----------



## Noah T

Thanks for the info. May end up getting an expresso machine but so far me & my Mrs are happy with our routine of making a few cups of coffee every morning via our collection of stove top coffee makers. Came across this forum while exploring the possibility of starting to roast beans at home rather than buying pre-roasted.


----------



## Jezzer

Amazed at how little care was taken making coffee before getting a weighing machine and measuring each shot.


----------



## RumbleToots

Just wanted to chime in and say how helpful this would've been for me when i was a newbie, what an amazing guide!


----------



## Alexholt

Hi, i'm Alex. I joined recently. I am a long time owner of a Barista Express and a V60.

I am on the journey towards the next grinder and machine (as is everyone, even if they don't know it yet...)

Can anyone tell me what the process is for being allowed to reply to for sale items?


----------



## AndyDClements

Hi Alex.

Access is when your post count reaches at least 5 ( so good opportunity to explain what sort of thing you think might suit, your needs, budget etc).

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/52862-cant-access-for-sale-forum/?do=embed


----------



## MrSalty

Hi guys,

Lurking for a few weeks... almost ignored this completely and bought the Nemox grinder and Gaggia classic grinder bundle straight from the internet. But after reading around here I figure that may not provide me with the best espresso.

Still drinking instant right now as just moved house =<

This site is a great resource, so hopefully I'll be able to give more back in future!

Cheers


----------



## AmateurEspresso

Very useful thread, thanks OP!


----------



## Ally_8004

Great guide. Thanks very much


----------



## Guy Levine

Thanks!


----------



## slammy

Very helpful first post to read, already answered some of my queries, thank you OP!

Will keep snooping around the rest of the forum, before i take the plunge with my first machine. 😁


----------



## rodf

Thanks


----------



## A&TP

Brilliant advice for a beginner like me. Thanks!

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


----------



## Cafesolo

Thanks for info, very useful. Trying to work out what my first machine will be

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nexus

Great guide thanks! Searching for my first espresso machine as we speak!


----------



## mnakh

This is a great guide to get started, super excited to find my first espresso machine and get more involved in the community. Who knew there were so many things to consider?!


----------



## LogicB0mb3r

Great guide. The journey towards the perfect coffee starts here


----------



## JackS

Thanks have joined finally after lurking for a while.


----------



## moppy

Nice write up, had been confused about HX written in other areas, good to know what it stands for


----------



## samlawton

Thank you for putting this together - whilst still an amateur with an Aeropress I'm definitely inspired to now upgrade, and whilst Nespresso (is that considered swearing in these parts?) seems an 'easy' option friends seem to follow the lure of a 'proper' machine cannot be ignored!


----------



## Palehedge

Thank you Glenn!


----------



## howza123

Excellent and thorough intro. I'd read about PIDs but didn't really understand how they worked. This solved that for me.

Looking forward to learning so much more.

Thanks 😊


----------



## Sidtrix

Great tips, new to the world of coffee UK


----------



## ulf

Great info and advice.... Thanks.


----------



## James K

Thanks for the guide, excellent forum!


----------



## Lyt_han

New to the forum and world of coffee, very useful guide for a beginner Thinking About purchasing a machine


----------



## Astin001

Super helpful!


----------



## Wayne.

Very helpful post - best explanation of a PID I've seen. I've been exploring the idea of an espresso machine to sit alongside the usual brew paraphernalia, almost scared to go down the rabbit hole now! Cheers


----------



## Al Grandé

Well written post, thank you.

Think it's time to get a espresso machine,the only thing that's worrying me....is....it's going to turn into a hobby....

My wife thinks I'm already obsessed...ready and watching about coffee machines.


----------



## Kamal mursheed

*very informative article sir,we all should have gathered knowledge from this useful article,thank you*


----------



## Mateadel

Newbie here. After much deliberation, about to purchase a Profitec 700 and a Eureka Atom 65. About to have my mind blow up with all the new info! Thank you for the advice!


----------



## kypsolo

Hi guys! I'm looking to get into making great coffee. Can't bare drinking a bad one now.

Hope you guys don't mind me asking a few questions . cheers


----------



## kypsolo

Great tips too  I'm a little confused on how to post on other threads but I'll figure it out


----------



## ARN22340

Interesting, many thanks for posting.

ARN


----------



## Waitforme

Isn't it amazing that with so many things that you only realise what you don't know when you start to read a little about it.

Coffee is no different !!


----------



## Remy obay

Hi,

New to the forum and looking for my first espresso machine, think I've decided on a used Gaggia Classic. Found this topic very useful, thank you.


----------



## Mike_coffeeinbath

That's a really informative article, thanks Glenn. I'm new to the forum, have had a Gaggia Classic for a few years now (around 10), just thinking about trading up a bit... Fracino, maybe


----------



## i_like_food

Thanks, good starting point. 👍


----------



## Barbu

Thanks for the info! I've only been here approx 2h and I've already learned a lot👍


----------



## CoffeePhilE

A very early post said this thread, or at least the guide at the start, should be compulsory for newbies here. I'm not entirely convinced about the compulsory bit, but reading it is a very good idea.

I don't join many forums, but when I do, step one is a to take agood long lookaround first, because some just don't suit me. Then step two is to read the "Read First" bits. It often saves me doing something and stepping on part of my anatomy I'd rather wasn't stood on.

That guide is very informative.

Nice forum, guys.


----------



## FlamingKiwi

I have just joined the forum and found this guide very useful.

I am researching an upgrade to my well loved 2008 Gaggia Baby Dose which has been an excellent machine but is now long overdue a replacement.

Many thanks.


----------



## Al Grandé

FlamingKiwi said:


> I have just joined the forum and found this guide very useful.
> 
> I am researching an upgrade to my well loved 2008 Gaggia Baby Dose which has been an excellent machine but is now long overdue a replacement.
> 
> Many thanks.


 Welcome. I joined, the ending November. ..ppl on here are very friendly, informative and helpful.


----------



## BobbyAxelrod

Thanks for the guide, it is really helpful!


----------



## Dag

That's a lot of useful information in one place. It must have taken a long time to put together. Much appreciated!


----------



## BillyG68

Some helpful information there. Prices could do with updating from 2012 though lol. Wished me new Gaggia Classic was £169 instead of £399


----------



## Raffael

thanks a lot, best summary I've found so far!


----------



## terra

hello 2all here,

just landed to the forum and found this guide very useful.


----------



## ARN22340

terra said:


> hello 2all here,
> 
> just landed to the forum and found this guide very useful.


 Welcome to the party


----------



## HylianJedi

HI all, great first post to get started with. New to the forum and new to espresso having been an avid aeropress and V60 user for a number of years. I'm just starting on my espresso journey and found this post to be really informatvie so thanks very much!


----------



## Burger

Great post.


----------



## Charlie69

Hello,

I just joined the forum and excited to be part of community here.

I brew coffee using V60 or AeroPress, but most of time the coffee cones out more bitter than I want to.

Can some please advise where to look in forum for tips please


----------



## DavecUK

@Charlie69 Welcome to the forum, we have some experts here that will sort you out in no time. @MWJB


----------



## Charlie69

@DavecUK Thank you very nice welcome


----------



## MWJB

Charlie69 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I just joined the forum and excited to be part of community here.
> 
> I brew coffee using V60 or AeroPress, but most of time the coffee cones out more bitter than I want to.
> 
> Can some please advise where to look in forum for tips please


 Welcome.

Can you describe your techniques with the brewers? (Grinder, setting, dose, brew water, timings - pour timings & weights with the V60 please).


----------



## Charlie69

Thank you @MWJB.

I have a Hario Slim hand grinder. I have set it to a setting that will give me a grind size similar to those pre-ground coffees for AeroPress (I compared to one from James Gourmet and one from PACT).

Fro AeroPress brewing, I put in a scoop of ground coffee, fill it with 80 degree coffee till mark 2, give it stir for 10 seconds and then plunge the AeroPress slowly for another 15-30 seconds.

For V60 it is much simpler. Grind a bit coarser then AeroPress, Pre damp the filter paper, use a scoop (around 12 gms) of coffe grounds, bloom the grounds for 10 seconds. And then pour water till half level of V60 slowly in circular motion.

Though I love coffee, I am newbie to brewing -so please excuse if there are any inaccuracies in descriptions


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## Brian1979

Great, informative post. Thank you.

Bran new to the brewing coffee world. I've used my tassimo pods machine for years and have finally taken the plunge into proper coffee making.

I've just bought the Sage Barista Pro. I haven't received it yet, but was just wondering what's the best beans to start off with. I don't want to get too expensive re the beans as I am sure there will be a lot of experimenting going on, wihh regards to grind levels etc.

So any tips for a proper newby to this world would be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards

Brian


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## DavecUK

@Brian1979 Welcome to the forum...Mark knows an awful lot about brewing...well worth taking note of his recommendations.


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## Brian1979

Thankyou @DavecUK.

Is Mark the guy who started this post? My apologies, I haven't quite figured this forum out yet on where to find things, etc.

I'll get there.. 😉


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## DavecUK

@MWJB Is the resident brewing expert....in my opinion (and I think most others).


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## MWJB

Charlie69 said:


> Thank you @MWJB.
> 
> I have a Hario Slim hand grinder. I have set it to a setting that will give me a grind size similar to those pre-ground coffees for AeroPress (I compared to one from James Gourmet and one from PACT).
> 
> Fro AeroPress brewing, I put in a scoop of ground coffee, fill it with 80 degree coffee till mark 2, give it stir for 10 seconds and then plunge the AeroPress slowly for another 15-30 seconds.
> 
> For V60 it is much simpler. Grind a bit coarser then AeroPress, Pre damp the filter paper, use a scoop (around 12 gms) of coffe grounds, bloom the grounds for 10 seconds. And then pour water till half level of V60 slowly in circular motion.
> 
> Though I love coffee, I am newbie to brewing -so please excuse if there are any inaccuracies in descriptions


 I'd get some scales, ones that read to at least 0.1g & that will take the weight of the brewer, coffee, water, server/cup. 2kg should easily do it. Scoops aren't consistent for measurement.

Do you have a gooseneck kettle?

Set your Hario slim to 11 clicks from the burrs locking up.

Grind 13.5g of coffee, making sure you have 13.5g in the brewer.

Pour 20g of brew water (straight off the boil for the first pour) every 20s in spirals, each pour takes 10s duration. Pour to 200g of brew water total.

After the water has drained from the surface of the coffee bed (time from first pout to this point), leave the brewer in place for 30s before removing it.

Don't overfill the kettle, it'll make it hard to pour gently, no more than 300g of water in there when you start to brew.


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## MWJB

Brian1979 said:


> Great, informative post. Thank you.
> 
> Bran new to the brewing coffee world. I've used my tassimo pods machine for years and have finally taken the plunge into proper coffee making.
> 
> I've just bought the Sage Barista Pro. I haven't received it yet, but was just wondering what's the best beans to start off with. I don't want to get too expensive re the beans as I am sure there will be a lot of experimenting going on, wihh regards to grind levels etc.
> 
> So any tips for a proper newby to this world would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Kind regards
> 
> Brian


 Buy some 0.1g scales so you can weigh out your coffee doses & the beverage weight on the drip tray.

Grind into a cup/pot/dry milk jug, make sure you have 18.0g for a double, 11.0g for a single. Give the receptacle a shake & transfer to the portafilter, tap it down on the counter once or twice, then tap the side of the portafilter with the heel of your hand to level the pile of coffee, tamp once, straight down, to the depth of the steel band on the tamper. Keep it as flat as you can.

Brew manually, don't use the preset shot/cup weights.

Start off aiming for 5x the weight of the coffee dose, in the cup. Time from the moment you start the pump, to the end of running the pump to hit your target weight (killing the pump a few g early if necessary, to ensure target weight is not greatly overshot.

Don't get into a frenzy, make shots at a reasonable pace, try and drink all that you can & try and describe what you think is wrong with them. Don't buy cheap coffee, expecting to waste a lot...because, then you will & waste time into the bargain.

Report back with grind setting, dose weight, drink weight, pump time & a rough score on how much you like the coffee.

A good starter bean might be Illy Monoarabica Ethiopia?


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## Brian1979

Thanks very much Mark.

A lot of info there. It's appreciated. I'll (attempt) to follow your instructions and report back.

Going by the Sage website, it looks as though I won't receive the barista pro for another 6-8 working days.

I'll hold off buying the beans til nearer the time.

Thanks again for such a detailed response.

Appreciated.

Brian


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## Charlie69

MWJB said:


> I'd get some scales, ones that read to at least 0.1g & that will take the weight of the brewer, coffee, water, server/cup. 2kg should easily do it. Scoops aren't consistent for measurement.
> 
> Do you have a gooseneck kettle?
> 
> Set your Hario slim to 11 clicks from the burrs locking up.
> 
> Grind 13.5g of coffee, making sure you have 13.5g in the brewer.
> 
> Pour 20g of brew water (straight off the boil for the first pour) every 20s in spirals, each pour takes 10s duration. Pour to 200g of brew water total.
> 
> After the water has drained from the surface of the coffee bed (time from first pout to this point), leave the brewer in place for 30s before removing it.
> 
> Don't overfill the kettle, it'll make it hard to pour gently, no more than 300g of water in there when you start to brew.





MWJB said:


> I'd get some scales, ones that read to at least 0.1g & that will take the weight of the brewer, coffee, water, server/cup. 2kg should easily do it. Scoops aren't consistent for measurement.
> 
> Do you have a gooseneck kettle?
> 
> Set your Hario slim to 11 clicks from the burrs locking up.
> 
> Grind 13.5g of coffee, making sure you have 13.5g in the brewer.
> 
> Pour 20g of brew water (straight off the boil for the first pour) every 20s in spirals, each pour takes 10s duration. Pour to 200g of brew water total.
> 
> After the water has drained from the surface of the coffee bed (time from first pout to this point), leave the brewer in place for 30s before removing it.
> 
> Don't overfill the kettle, it'll make it hard to pour gently, no more than 300g of water in there when you start to brew.


 @MWJB... Thank you! .. Next task now for me is to order some more accurate scales (and a gooseneck kettle).


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## Bankside02

Thank you, this chain has been very useful


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## AnaMaria

Great guide thanks


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee

very useful. thanks


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## Rudester

What a great introduction. Trouble is, I came into this forum thing i'f get myself a GC and a Niche and be done. After readin this thread i've found myself researching much more costly options!!!


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## HiddenCb

MWJB said:


> Buy some 0.1g scales so you can weigh out your coffee doses & the beverage weight on the drip tray.
> 
> Grind into a cup/pot/dry milk jug, make sure you have 18.0g for a double, 11.0g for a single. Give the receptacle a shake & transfer to the portafilter, tap it down on the counter once or twice, then tap the side of the portafilter with the heel of your hand to level the pile of coffee, tamp once, straight down, to the depth of the steel band on the tamper. Keep it as flat as you can.
> 
> Brew manually, don't use the preset shot/cup weights.
> 
> Start off aiming for 5x the weight of the coffee dose, in the cup. Time from the moment you start the pump, to the end of running the pump to hit your target weight (killing the pump a few g early if necessary, to ensure target weight is not greatly overshot.
> 
> Don't get into a frenzy, make shots at a reasonable pace, try and drink all that you can & try and describe what you think is wrong with them. Don't buy cheap coffee, expecting to waste a lot...because, then you will & waste time into the bargain.
> 
> Report back with grind setting, dose weight, drink weight, pump time & a rough score on how much you like the coffee.
> 
> A good starter bean might be Illy Monoarabica Ethiopia?


 Hiya. I'm in the same position as the original person, but about a month into brewing for myself now. 
Other guides I have read recommend brewing to have a 1:2 ratio, not 1:5. Am I misunderstanding something?

Many thanks


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## MWJB

HiddenCb said:


> Hiya. I'm in the same position as the original person, but about a month into brewing for myself now.
> Other guides I have read recommend brewing to have a 1:2 ratio, not 1:5. Am I misunderstanding something?
> 
> Many thanks


 1:2 produces coffee of a higher strength than 1:5, that's all.

The longer your brew ratio the better chance of extracting & balancing the flavours, accepting that the coffee will be weaker. Medium/medium dark espresso roasts & blends might be fine at 1:2 to 1:3.5, light roasts can benefit from a longer ratio.

So basically, I'm saying,start out with a longer ratio/coarser grind, then work back shorter & finer if you need more concentration, whilst avoiding sharp/tart under-extraction.


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## HiddenCb

MWJB said:


> 1:2 produces coffee of a higher strength than 1:5, that's all.
> 
> The longer your brew ratio the better chance of extracting & balancing the flavours, accepting that the coffee will be weaker. Medium/medium dark espresso roasts & blends might be fine at 1:2 to 1:3.5, light roasts can benefit from a longer ratio.
> 
> So basically, I'm saying,start out with a longer ratio/coarser grind, then work back shorter & finer if you need more concentration, whilst avoiding sharp/tart under-extraction.


 This makes sense to me.

How do you over-extract then? I assumed long brew times would do this.

Or are you suggesting start with a longer time because the grind is coarser?

Thanks!


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## MWJB

HiddenCb said:


> This makes sense to me.
> 
> How do you over-extract then? I assumed long brew times would do this.
> 
> Or are you suggesting start with a longer time because the grind is coarser?
> 
> Thanks!


 Sorry, I didn't mention time. By "longer" I mean a longer ratio (1:3,1:4, 1:5 etc). My 1:5 shots don't take necessarily any longer than typical shots. I've had shots up to a minute that didn't over-extract either. Time is not a good indicator of extraction, grind size & ratio are.

For example I might extract a 1:2 shot with an espresso blend in under 25s, a 1:5 shot (a little coarser) might only take 4 or 5 seconds longer.

You over-extract by grinding too fine, by using very soluble/highly roasted/old coffee. Over-extraction is much more accessible with drip brewing, where you end up with 12-16x the weight of the coffee in the cup. It's pretty rare in espresso, certainly not the thing to be most aware/cautious about (that's under-extraction).


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## HiddenCb

MWJB said:


> Sorry, I didn't mention time. By "longer" I mean a longer ratio (1:3,1:4, 1:5 etc). My 1:5 shots don't take necessarily any longer than typical shots. I've had shots up to a minute that didn't over-extract either. Time is not a good indicator of extraction, grind size & ratio are.
> 
> For example I might extract a 1:2 shot with an espresso blend in under 25s, a 1:5 shot (a little coarser) might only take 4 or 5 seconds longer.
> 
> You over-extract by grinding too fine, by using very soluble/highly roasted/old coffee. Over-extraction is much more accessible with drip brewing, where you end up with 12-16x the weight of the coffee in the cup. It's pretty rare in espresso, certainly not the thing to be most aware/cautious about (that's under-extraction).


 I see. I'll have a go tomorrow. Cheers!


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## crazyp

Just wanted to say "Hi" - new user here.

I was actually considering a MaraX and tracked back following DavecUK's excellent review. Thank you for this - it's a considered purchase and having this level of analysis is so so helpful.

However, it's already been an expensive forum for me 😄. I've only been reading a day a have realised that I would benefit from a much better grinder than I had budgeted for and I need something like an Osmio Zero due to being cursed with Thames Valley hard water. (349 mg/l CaCO₃ - I imagine If it was any harder calcium tablets would pour out when I turned the tap on).

Maybe I should put in for some more overtime.... 🤔

Cheers everyone 😃


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## DavecUK

@crazyp Welcome to the forum. It can seem expensive, but the equipment lasts a very long time (decades) and usually doesn't need much maintenance. So over the long term it's not as expensive as it might seem.

Now upgraditis.......that's a different thing entirely.


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## 9ail

Great information for new coffee lovers


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## postexitus

Hi Everybody,

Came here following @DavecUK's Lelit reviews featured in Bella Barista. Such a nice community. I have a lot to learn.


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## The Systemic Kid

Welcome to the forum @postexitus


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## DavecUK

Welcome to the forum...


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## BristolTom

Hi everyone I have just joined the forum, so just posting to say hello.

I'm just starting my journey and enjoying the posts on here and learning a lot. Hoping to invest in some (modest) kit soon!


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## Chrijj

After a while lurking glad to finally join. Feels like a nice community with little gatekeeping.


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## coffeenewbie12

A great read! Hi, all looking forward to getting stuck in!


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## wahman

Thanks for the helpful advice!


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## igr

Hi!

What setup would you recommend for £5k all-in?

My wife and I make ~8 lattes per day and need equipment that will last. Ideally something easy to use for both: I don't mind setting it all up, but would like the wife to be able to make a latte easily, a "set-and-forget" setup.

We currently have Oracle Touch and it just failed after 9 months.


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## Dave135

Hi there,

New to this forum so just wanted to say hello to you all. I drink a mix of pour over, espresso and latte drinks. Preference for medium / light roasts but I like like to experiment and learn.

I'm a former owner of a Sage Barista Express and recently upgraded to the Lelit Mara X / Eureka Specialita combo. V60 / Comandante C40 for pour over. Looking forward to learning more and contributing where I can.

Dave


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## DavecUK

@Dave135 welcome to the forum


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## Kris

Hello,

great piece there thank you definitely food for thought. I've owned a La Pavoni lever machine in the past then went to a Jura bean to cup now I'm looking at the rancilio Silvia or the La Pavoni baretto but I can't seem to find much on the la Pavoni is this better than than the rancilio , or are they on the same level? But I have just come across the Elba 1 which I've never herd of. I mean the Elba maybe too much just for domestic use ? Any advice or recommendations would be great.

thank you

kris


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## DavecUK

@Kris Welcome to the forum, hopefully members familiar with those machines (baretto and Elba 1) can help.


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## Single shot

Hi All

I got a Gaggia Classic 2001 about six years ago. I put on the brass DP with the small holes along with an IMS D249. This required the centre hole of the DP to be reshaped in order for it to seat flat but the IMS still spurted from the sides so ended up going on top of the the original Gaggia SS. But still not a great solution.

I saw a reference to the DP's small holes messing with the flow and causing puck issues so decided to machine these out to 5mm whilst moving the centres inward. Flow rate now seems excessive and causing even worse edge channeling. Single shots seem to be things no longer possible.

Has any one got experience of using puck screens? Do they really work? If so would they work in conjunction with a convex tamper?


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## Macjester

I am a newcomer to the forums and this is a very helpful intro to the technicalities of coffee making.

Thanks.


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## ddwaltz90

Didn't know there was such a thing. Thank you for this!


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## Shiba Junior

Thanks for the info,

It would be great if there is some suggestion on choosing between Gaggia Classic and the Pro version.

Will dig deeper into the forum to see if there is some similar post.


----------



## Jazz

Hi, I am Jazz.

My espresso machine Victoria Arduino E1 Prima, VST RIdgeless 18, 20 grams, Mostley with bottomless portalfilter.

Grinder Niche Zero, Ureka atom specialty 75.

Nice to join your group.


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## DavecUK

@Jazz Welcome to the forum. Sounds like a nice set-up.


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## Snowman8888

Hi, I am new to the forum and looking to upgrade on my Gaggia and Bodum grinder. I've already read some very informative posts. Thanks


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## coffeechap

@Snowman8888 welcome to the forum, why not start a thread outlining what you want to get from a set up, plenty of really helpful folk here to give you hand


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## Leblanc

Great insight, thanks for putting this together.


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## DanLeyden

This is fantastic post and really glad I found it... I learnt plenty from just reading one thing! Thanks


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## DanielAdam

Good read and has got me thinking Gaggia or Silvia


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## Benlowen

Thanks Glenn, always nice to have a guide like this. Glad I bought my Profitec Pro 400 after selling my PID Silvia. Has taken a little while to get used to the HX cooling flush after being used to the PID.


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## ryan1982

Really informative, I'm new to the forum so thanks for this, a big help.


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## Toosh

Hello, fellow Newbie here, just joined today. No lurking, just found you using Google-Fu and straight in  Have already read quite a few articles mainly about the Niche Zero and obviously the informative post at the top of this thread  Looking forward to getting into our coffee journey


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## Surfer4U

Hi there.

Just joined this groupe, looks like you all have a lot of experience with coffee making. 
CR


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## Muckenash

Hi
Another newbie here, who just joined and decided to read this great guide. Thank you OP.
Hands up who read this after buying a machine and are currently questing all there life choices? 🤚
Is there a similar one about for grinders? At least I haven’t bought that yet. Lol


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## rowanad

Having a wild time scouring this forum. Came on to scout user reviews of the multitude of espresso machines I’m considering to replace my pod offering and have ended up thinking I should probably double my budget! Amazing resource!


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