# To Freeze or not to freeze?



## Raptorex (Sep 10, 2016)

Looking for opinions here, on if to or not and if so how? I'll make my own determination after hearing the views of those with experience.

Also containers for the job, what do you use?

I'm assuming this may be contentious, so be nice please☺


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I don't really freeze unless I've got a load of bean that I'm not going to get through in 3-4 weeks.

If I do I decant into small click lock boxes that you can get from supermarkets, the range, Wilkos etc. The ones I use hold about 80g. Which will last 3-4 days max.

Some guys on here freeze singledoses in smaller similar boxes.


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## Raptorex (Sep 10, 2016)

Actually it was freezing single(14g) shots and grinding them frozen that got me thinking about the whole thing. As in if to or not.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I tend to leave mine out for 45mins-an hour min for them to thaw out a bit. I've not tried straight from the freezer.

I'd be a bit wary of this damaging the burrs. But I've got nothing to indicate that this ever would.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

It's not contentious and lots of us freeze beans (carefully) - there are other threads on this topic, which will give you chapter and verse - including grinding from frozen.

Here's one example and here's another.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Raptorex said:


> Actually it was freezing single(14g) shots and grinding them frozen that got me thinking about the whole thing. As in if to or not.


I freeze single doses and grind from frozen if that helps at all . You will find you need to grind a little coarser if you do this .


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## Raptorex (Sep 10, 2016)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I tend to leave mine out for 45mins-an hour min for them to thaw out a bit. I've not tried straight from the freezer.
> 
> I'd be a bit wary of this damaging the burrs. But I've got nothing to indicate that this ever would.


With the low moisture content, they shouldn't be much harder, I assume. And they should fracture more evenly on the burrs.


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## Raptorex (Sep 10, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> I freeze single doses and grind from frozen if that helps at all . You will find you need to grind a little coarser if you do this .


Now that's interesting. I'm assuming that's because of expansion of the frozen bean? However that would suggest a higher liquid content than I'd thought.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Raptorex said:


> Now that's interesting. I'm assuming that's because of expansion of the frozen bean?


Don't know , it has been theorised ( Hendon And Perger ) that grinding from frozen can produce a more consistent particle size , hence you can grind a little coarser . Whether this is true or not I do not know , I do know that I am grinding coarser .


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## Raptorex (Sep 10, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Don't know , it has been theorised ( Hendon And Perger ) that grinding from frozen can produce a more consistent particle size , hence you can grind a little coarser . Whether this is true or not I do not know , I do know that I am grinding coarser .


Absolutely! That makes total sense.

I knew theoretically freezing should improve consistency. I hadn't realised that it would mean a coarser grind.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Raptorex said:


> Absolutely! That makes total sense.
> 
> I knew theoretically freezing should improve consistency. I hadn't realised that it would mean a coarser grind.


You don't have to grind coarser ... You can grind same and see how it works for you .


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

you'd really be better using the search function and reading through all the discussion and debate on the topic.

not just on here but also on home-barista.

You're going to get lots of mixed views but 1 common element is to make sure you stop ingress of water into your storage, if freezing a bag of coffee tape up the value because it can freeze open, or use sealable containers e.g. Kilner jars.

FWIW I decant 250g into 3 containers and then dose directly from the freezer grinding without defrosting - once I find a decent solution I'm planning to move to single dose containers. I freeze 5-7 days past roast.

some people freeze as early as possible, some defrost, some don't, some freeze green beans.

I think the options are more driven by how you personally want to fit things into your workflow - for me single dosing direct from freezer works because I want to swap between lots of different beans and don't want to defrost an entire bag at a time.


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## Raptorex (Sep 10, 2016)

Phobic said:


> you'd really be better using the search function and reading through all the discussion and debate on the topic.
> 
> not just on here but also on home-barista.
> 
> ...


I've been reading about it from many sources and thought I'd ask current active members their thoughts.

It seems to me the only really problem with freezing is how fast, therefore how big/small the crystal size of any contained liquid is.

However what should theoretically happen does always come to pass, in my experience.


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## nicholasj (Nov 11, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Don't know , it has been theorised ( Hendon And Perger ) that grinding from frozen can produce a more consistent particle size , hence you can grind a little coarser . Whether this is true or not I do not know , I do know that I am grinding coarser .


I just ground for my morning espresso hit and the extraction took and extra 8 seconds than normal with the same beans. I assume because this mornings beans were frozen. The problem here is that if I take out of the freezer 3 or 4 days of beans, I've either got to wait for them to defrost or change grinder settings for the second day onwards.

I think I'll pop the frozen beans into the hopper the night before.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Raptorex said:


> It seems to me the only really problem with freezing is how fast, therefore how big/small the crystal size of any contained liquid is.
> 
> However what should theoretically happen does always come to pass, in my experience.


I have no way of measuring this other than taste of the shot , you can make your head spin with freezing or not freezing view points . Best advice is to try . Rest some beans , freeze one dose , don't freeze another , pull the shots , see if you notice a difference beyond your the factors that human barista error can cause


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

nicholasj said:


> I just ground for my morning espresso hit and the extraction took and extra 8 seconds than normal with the same beans. I assume because this mornings beans were frozen. The problem here is that if I take out of the freezer 3 or 4 days of beans, I've either got to wait for them to defrost or change grinder settings for the second day onwards.
> 
> I think I'll pop the frozen beans into the hopper the night before.


Did the 8 seconds longer effect the taste? I tend to judge a shot via taste and balance, not how long it took to extract . If it didn't taste any different don't worry . I ask as you have only provided me with time not a taste /

I single dose anyway , so freezing single doses makes sense for me .


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## Raptorex (Sep 10, 2016)

Ultimately, Mrboots2u, thats exactly what I was always going to do.

@ nicholasj did you make your grind more cource, as that may account for the extra time?


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## nicholasj (Nov 11, 2013)

Raptorex said:


> Ultimately, Mrboots2u, thats exactly what I was always going to do.
> 
> @ nicholasj did you make your grind more cource, as that may account for the extra time?


No, I left the grinder setting the same as I've used for the same beans, defrosted, for the previous few days. On using frozen beans this morning the extraction took 8 seconds longer. I didn't, as Mrboots2u suggests, make the grind courser to compensate for the beans being frozen.

But in the end it was a pretty decent shot!


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Raptorex said:


> It seems to me the only really problem with freezing is how fast, therefore how big/small the crystal size of any contained liquid is.


the water content of roasted beans is pretty low in the 1st place so not sure how much this plays into things.

from what I've read freezing temp is more a factor in how long you store for, from memory sub -20C is recommended for longer freezes


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## Raptorex (Sep 10, 2016)

Don't most home freezers hold at -18c. I've never checked?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Food storage times are based around -18 as a nominal value, and I think in commercial settings -18 is the 'warmest' permissible temp. That's not to say a domestic freezer *can't* go lower, just that -18 is the temperature most often recommended and talked about.


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## Raptorex (Sep 10, 2016)

hotmetal said:


> Food storage times are based around -18 as a nominal value, and I think in commercial settings -18 is the 'warmest' permissible temp. That's not to say a domestic freezer *can't* go lower, just that -18 is the temperature most often recommended and talked about.


I was looking more higher than lower, to be honest.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

My home freezer (not in any way a fancy pants one) is -25c and could go colder.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Raptorex said:


> I was looking more higher than lower, to be honest.


Have a word with Bruce Forsyth!

The problem with that is it's not ideal for your frozen food, so unless you're really disciplined with not leaving food in the freezer for more than a month you might not want to do that. And would it be better for the beans? My take on it has always been that the faster you freeze something, the smaller the resulting ice crystals, so I've always thought (no scientist, mind) that the colder the freezer, the faster a given item will freeze and so the less damage.


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## Raptorex (Sep 10, 2016)

hotmetal said:


> Have a word with Bruce Forsyth!
> 
> The problem with that is it's not ideal for your frozen food, so unless you're really disciplined with not leaving food in the freezer for more than a month you might not want to do that. And would it be better for the beans? My take on it has always been that the faster you freeze something, the smaller the resulting ice crystals, so I've always thought (no scientist, mind) that the colder the freezer, the faster a given item will freeze and so the less damage.


That's how I see it except the difference in speed between -18 and -22 or even -32 isn't significant enough to be worth it. Ideally you freeze with dry ice(CO2) at around -100c. Better still N2 at -210 or more. Then transfer to a freezer at -20 or so.

Liquid CO2 is the only one viable in terms of finance for home use though. Imo

Good game, good game!


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## Raptorex (Sep 10, 2016)

N2 is, despite being a lighter molecule than O2, heavier than air, because it's more dense. It's also virtually none reactive and displaces O2 too. Potentially it could be the ideal coffee freezing medium. Freezes quickly displaces O2 and can't escape before you get the lid on.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

you might be in danger of over thinking it, I'd be impressed if your palette can taste the difference









if you want to get obsessive about the perfect temp, whack some beans in the freezer, do a few coarse level tests e.g. -18C versus -24C when frozen for a month, if you can taste the difference then think about how you can improve things.

if you can't taste the difference, sit back, relax and enjoy the coffee


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Ive frozen beans in the past but dont anymore.

I thought the same bean tasted "thinner" after being frozen,, thats the best way I can describe it.

I now just keep them in the pantry.


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## Raptorex (Sep 10, 2016)

Phobic said:


> you might be in danger of over thinking it, I'd be impressed if your palette can taste the difference
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your quite right, I always do so. Since I was a kid I've started from the theoretical ultimate and worked back till I found practical. You, imo, find stacks of information that may not affect you current problem, but sits there waiting for the time you need it.

Aside from the freezing for even partical side, this whole thing in more of a mental exercise, more museful than useful. But then again.


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