# Terrible Coffee!



## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

My daughter has a Siemens bean-to-cup system and to me her espressos taste nice. On the other hand my "barista" coffee making is unpredictable. After 460 (the Mazzer counts as 920 singles) double espresso or Americano, hours of reading and many practice shots I was embarrassed today after serving her an undrinkable, extremely acid, espresso. I actually had to rinse out my mouth after tasting it. I could not figure out what I had done wrong as I had used the same technique which normally produces a sweet taste with the Ethiopian mocha beans.

19.4gm, 35lb tamp, 25seconds, 93C and 32gm pour. Timing started from lever move and drops commenced 5 seconds later with rat tail pour.

I lowered the temperature to 92C, tried again but the strong acidity was still there.

The beans are 10 days from roast date.

Needless to say my daughter is laughing at my efforts and significant expense over her more modest system. That is not a problem for me but my bad pours are.

Ian


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Try using a lower dose but still using 1.65 extraction ratio and around 30 seconds.

If you have VST 18g try 17g dose? Some coffees just suit a lower dose.

The consistency will be there soon, don't worry!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

25 seconds seem quick to me for such a high dose. Have you tried slowing down the flow 30-35 seconds and tasting again?


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

If it tastes sour then you're probably under extracting. Fine up the grind a bit and slow it down slightly.

Also - bean to cup machines will make an 'inoffensive' espresso but will never make a god shot. You made the right decision!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Yep bean to cup - all mid-range with not a hint of bass or treble!


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## xXDaedalusXx (Oct 24, 2011)

If it is tasting acidic and sour you want the temperature up a bit not lower.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

As said above, if it tastes sour then the espresso is most likely under extracted (not enough of the coffee solids have dissolved and so the sweeter tasting compounds, which usually balance out the sour notes, have not yet been dissolved). The other extreme is usually bitterness which comes when the espresso is over extracted and too much of the coffee solids have been dissolved.

To increase extraction, you can alter one or more of the following variables but bear in mind that altering one may have an impact on the others:

- Temperature (increasing brew water temperature can increase extraction - it increases the rate at which the solids dissolve)

- Grind (grinding finer increases the surface area of the ground coffee which speeds up the rate at which the solids dissolve. However, it also slows down the pour, increasing the time the water is in contact with the coffee)

- Dose (generally increasing the quantity of ground coffee in the basket slows down the pour, increasing the contact time but it also means that more water is required to properly extract the larger quantity of coffee)

- Brew ratio (the amount of espresso produced in relation to the dose. Generally lengthening the ratio will use more brew water and so dissolve more of the solids from the coffee grounds).

- Time (the slower the pour, the longer the brew water is in contact with the coffee and so the more solids are dissolved leading to higher extraction). Time is really a function of brew ratio, dose and grind.

Bear in mind that these variables need regular tweaking as beans age and to compensate for changes in environmental factors such as humidity, etc.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Its funny, the one parameter I used to change all the time was temperature, keeping everything else fixed pretty much. It was fun - coffee did taste different to my novice palate.

These days its rare I change from 92c, and simply play with grind and dose, brew ratio is my final resort, and, temperature is now the 'last stab to save a coffee from the bin'.

Maybe I need to look to my espresso past to make progress forward! We get stuck in our ways


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

After getting my PID and setting the offset I tended to leave it at 93 and only reduce if I thought the coffee was dark enough to need it. The best thing about having a PID is consistency shot to shot. I wouldn't ever think that I've absolutely nailed the dose, ratio, grind, distribution, tamp etc only to think that the only thing that needs changing is a 1 or 2 degree temp change. We asked Dale about this at Hasbean and he said that roast level is probably the main thing that leads to a temp change, other than that it isn't really something to worry about over the other variables.

With a lot of other hobbies there could be cries of "all the gear, no idea" with this thread, but I really think that if you're sure you want to 'get into' coffee as a hobby then you should spend as much as you can from the start. It'll only make the journey less bumpy! The key thing with investing in an expensive machine is just that you know how to maintain/clean it I guess.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

I always try to keep temperature as constant as possible too.

Coffee is made up of lots of different flavour compounds that all dissolve at different rates (this is the reason for sour, sweet and bitter tasting espresso - the lighter, sour tasting, compounds dissolve very quickly whereas the sweeter and bitter tasting compounds dissolve much more slowly).

It is generally true that increasing the temperature of a solvent (in this case the brew water) increases the rate at which a soluble dissolves in it. However, in coffee the different compounds react to temperature changes differently i.e. increasing the brew water temperature by 1 degree will not have a uniform effect on all the compounds but will cause some compounds to dissolve more quickly relative to others.


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## aodstratford (Sep 18, 2012)

Try removing the grouphead and cleaning everything until it is spotless (just undo the bolt holding it in).

If you are not sure this may be the reason - run some water through into a cup and smell and taste the water. If it smells and tastes stale carboardy and yukky - it definitely needs a clean. When my coffee doesn't taste so good this is the first thing I do. Hope this helps.

Adam


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