# The Niche and getting it level in the PF - is this going to work?



## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

OK I keep fidgeting when i transfer the coffee into the PF from the cup, and sometimes we have the Alps, other times the Cotswolds but never close to flat....

I saw the little home made whisks and thought yes, that's what i need, i can make one of them and give it a little whisk before tamping.

So i had an old whisk and pinged off a loop and thought hmmmmm that shape reminds me of something...

So i made this instead.










and put it here










...and twist the cup a couple of times on the PF and carefully remove the cup.

I've only tried two shots so far too early to say much other than

it seems level...

there is a little bit of coffee sticking to the wire (0.1g approx), and a tap seems to free it.

I can still get my chopstick in to give the grinds a stir if they look clumpy.

I have no idea if i should change the shape or angle or length.... or go back to cannibalizing the whisk...

What do the Niche tifosi think?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It's repeatable unlike knocking grinds side ways or the cocktail shaking method I have seen on one video so could work rather well.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Video in action please


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

A lot cheaper than this!

https://keencoffee.com/product/the-shot-collar/


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Video in action please


Hmm a video clip of clip action lol, not sure i have the skills or spare hand for that but i'll try some photos of what the PF looks like after several attempts. Is that ok?

This morning i spun it around just 360 and did not make it as flat as i wanted, last night i span it around a couple of times, problem is i can't see what is going on inside the cup PF while i'm doing it....











PPapa said:


> A lot cheaper than this!
> 
> https://keencoffee.com/product/the-shot-collar/


 I could buy a lot of whisks for that...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Is this not just a case of splitting the atom......I doubt if very many people, could be presented several shots and be able to identify what meths produced what shot......ok, first to admit my taste buds are not the most delicate but there has to be a line at which we say stop!


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

I should have been a little clearer about levels... i find with the niche as you are effectively pouring from one side, if i don't fidget with the grinds (do they feel the same?) - it's often (for me) not level after tamping- it's like it's the more dense is on one side usually when the Alps appears and i've moved the less dense coffee away down into the valley below. It may look level...

After tamping, one side will be 1-2 mm higher than the opposite side, and then i see the the extraction favouring one side, and that has to make a difference? I suspect i'm probably tamping harder on the high side as well.

I suspect if you measured the density of freshly ground coffee in a pile, at the bottom is considerably more than the top, and as long as you dose into a PF that probably doesn't matter, as it layers naturally. I took some photos and will post them later - the jury is still out at the moment..


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Agentb

If you tamp correctly, or use those spinning tools then it it pretty easy to get a perfectly level tamp


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I like this and would want one for sure .


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Are you shaking the grinds before putting into the portafilter ?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Agentb said:


> I should have been a little clearer about levels... i find with the niche as you are effectively pouring from one side, if i don't fidget with the grinds (do they feel the same?) - it's often (for me) not level after tamping- it's like it's the more dense is on one side usually when the Alps appears and i've moved the less dense coffee away down into the valley below. It may look level...
> 
> After tamping, one side will be 1-2 mm higher than the opposite side, and then i see the the extraction favouring one side, and that has to make a difference? I suspect i'm probably tamping harder on the high side as well.
> 
> I suspect if you measured the density of freshly ground coffee in a pile, at the bottom is considerably more than the top, and as long as you dose into a PF that probably doesn't matter, as it layers naturally. I took some photos and will post them later - the jury is still out at the moment..


Sounds like you aren't tamping properly. Ideally you'll have the coffee distributed in the basket so it's an even density throughout before tamping, this will mean that the bed is level before you tamp but if it isn't you should still have a level bed after the tamp you'll just have some areas more compressed than others.

I like your little mod though.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> Are you shaking the grinds before putting into the portafilter ?


Shake, like you might say an icecube in a whisky glass, sometimes.

Shake like a cocktail mixer with the PF attached, cha cha cha, no.

It's just put the PF on top of the cup and flip it over and give it tap.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Rob1 said:


> Sounds like you aren't tamping properly. Ideally you'll have the coffee distributed in the basket so it's an even density throughout before tamping, this will mean that the bed is level before you tamp but if it isn't you should still have a level bed after the tamp you'll just have some areas more compressed than others.
> 
> I like your little mod though.


Thanks Rob, it took longer to post the thread than make... lol.

Like i said i can get a even tamp if if i fidget around with the distribution. If i don't, i have to go back and press hard on the high side and that seems wrong.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Agentb said:


> Thanks Rob, it took longer to post the thread than make... lol.
> 
> Like i said i can get a even tamp if if i fidget around with the distribution. If i don't, i have to go back and press hard on the high side and that seems wrong.


You can make me one then


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

FWIW getting level grounds before tamping isn't difficult with a WDT tool.

Some shots from my puck preparation. Grind into cocktail shaker cup, shake a bit, transfer to portafilter with a funnel on, WDT, tap, tamp.

Prepared before tamping:










Level-ish tamp










Post tamp:


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> You can make me one then


Or remove the spring clip in Your portafilter and make it yourself lazy boy


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> You can make me one then


<looks at whisk> ok you're first on the whisk list.







</looks>


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Agentb said:


> Shake, like you might say an icecube in a whisky glass, sometimes.
> 
> Shake like a cocktail mixer with the PF attached, cha cha cha, no.
> 
> It's just put the PF on top of the cup and flip it over and give it tap.


Due to the difference in particle size caused with this grinder single dosing you really need to give the grinds a good shake as what could be happening in yoybportafilter is uneven extraction due to the largest particle from the last portion of grinding, all being present at the same part of the portafilter!


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

PPapa said:


> FWIW getting level grounds before tamping isn't difficult with a WDT tool.
> 
> Some shots from my puck preparation. Grind into cocktail shaker cup, shake a bit, transfer to portafilter with a funnel on, WDT, tap, tamp.


Thanks @PPapa, they look perfect - It's the WDT tool prepared stage first photo that is noticeably different. I'll try and get some photos up.



coffeechap said:


> Due to the difference in particle size caused with this grinder single dosing you really need to give the grinds a good shake as what could be happening in yoybportafilter is uneven extraction due to the largest particle from the last portion of grinding, all being present at the same part of the portafilter!


Thanks @coffeechap this maybe a secret clue some more shaking.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Due to the difference in particle size caused with this grinder single dosing you really need to give the grinds a good shake as what could be happening in yoybportafilter is uneven extraction due to the largest particle from the last portion of grinding, all being present at the same part of the portafilter!


I suppose not directly related, but I was sent details of a prototype device, which among other things it did (it was not a grinder, b ut was for placing beside a grinder) was vibrate to distribute the coffee, we're not talking about dental vibrator here. The portafilter was held in a device and the coffee actually rotated and levelled as it vibrated. Apparently this gave far better pours and pucks? It was about a year ago, apparently they we're considering production and wanted to send me one. It was quire large and the made bit I was interested in was the vibration bit...fortunately it was also modular, PSU and the 2-3 different units. My feedback was concentrate on the vibrating bit as it had potential and wasn't just a modified dental vibrator. I can't say a lot more about it.

The reason I mention it was I would have thought vibrating a coffee bed would cause the particles to organise themselves in order of size/density. So interesting they felt it gave better shots? As always the proof is in the pudding....


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## _shakeyjake_ (Dec 16, 2016)

Maybe I'm a simpleton, but I usually just knock the porterfilter on the worktop a couple of times and everything levels out. Then tamp it. Will that not solve the problem of uneven loading into the basket?

Even easier with a bottomless portafilter.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)




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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I suppose not directly related, but I was sent details of a prototype device, which among other things it did (it was not a grinder, b ut was for placing beside a grinder) was vibrate to distribute the coffee, we're not talking about dental vibrator here. The portafilter was held in a device and the coffee actually rotated and levelled as it vibrated. Apparently this gave far better pours and pucks? It was about a year ago, apparently they we're considering production and wanted to send me one. It was quire large and the made bit I was interested in was the vibration bit...fortunately it was also modular, PSU and the 2-3 different units. My feedback was concentrate on the vibrating bit as it had potential and wasn't just a modified dental vibrator. I can't say a lot more about it.
> 
> The reason I mention it was I would have thought vibrating a coffee bed would cause the particles to organise themselves in order of size/density. So interesting they felt it gave better shots? As always the proof is in the pudding....


Not sur what your pony is Dave? Vibration would been an even distribution of particle sizes from bottom to top as the finer particles would end up at the bottom and if this is even it will give a more even extraction I suppose. The point I am making is that the niche ptoduces different particle sizes (as it grinds) meaningvthatvthe first 5 grams is finer than the last 5 grams!

If you simply pour this into a portafilter you risk an uneven spread of particle sizes inthe portafilter, if you shake the grinds, something most people do who own the niche, you mix up the different sizes and have a much much smaller chance of a separation or grouping together if the same sized particles in one area. Mixing is essential with the niche.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Not sur what your pony is Dave? Vibration would been an even distribution of particle sizes from bottom to top as the finer particles would end up at the bottom and if this is even it will give a more even extraction I suppose. The point I am making is that the niche ptoduces different particle sizes (as it grinds) meaningvthatvthe first 5 grams is finer than the last 5 grams!
> 
> If you simply pour this into a portafilter you risk an uneven spread of particle sizes inthe portafilter, if you shake the grinds, something most people do who own the niche, you mix up the different sizes and have a much much smaller chance of a separation or grouping together if the same sized particles in one area. Mixing is essential with the niche.


No pony? I just thought it was interesting and your post reminded me of the device I saw last year.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Colonna had some kind of vibrating pad thingy once. Can't find the clip now though.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Agentb said:


> Thanks @PPapa, they look perfect - It's the WDT tool prepared stage first photo that is noticeably different. I'll try and get some photos up.


You'll need some practice but I can get level-ish distribution. I no longer use the OCD-like distribution tool because of it.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

OK I promised som photos from this morning.

I had some two month old Lavazza beans, so i knew this could end in a coffee confetti... and i fully intended to sink it.

Grind would be normal for espresso and 18g.










and quick stir with chopstick...










I started with me being lazy and made it really lop sided, I'm in not quite as bad as this now with the cup to backet technique - but this was a sight seen n the early days of Niche...

A boulder has rolled off the mountain as i removed the cup (the clip disturbed the pile on the left)

I tried to remove the cup and put it back in the same position. the clip is at 5 o'clock.










rotated it 5 times fairly quickly, the cup sticks a little when you put it back i suspect coffee is getting between the basket and the cup.

and removed carefully again...










and the repeated ...










which i thought looked pretty good.

At this point habit made me run the ball of my thumb to even it out, and a it felt even.










and tamped .. my tamper is not a perfect fit for the VST, so I have to North South East West etc.










which gets to










Which is level...









Of course i had to test it out... first second or two.










then










finally










and the puck looked like










and thanks for getting to the end.

I did taste it, and thought yeah, ok i've had worse - but i did have some nice Brazilians i wanted to start the day with...

I did try the shaking more on the last shot of the day, i think that helps a lot, but i need to be patient...


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## Adrianmsmith (Dec 30, 2018)

Hi

I do see this is an old thread but it interests me as I have similar questions and as a newbie dont know if what im doing is fundamentally flawed as seen by the more knowledgeable of you out there.

I bought the niche a few weeks ago and had read about popcorning and problems with grind size throughout the dose.

I put the portafilter on the cup, invery and shake i guess 5-6 times up and down, finally giving it a light tap and remove the cup. seems to work ok. Is there an issue shaking could cause that im missing the point of.

thanks. Ade.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Adrianmsmith said:


> Hi
> 
> I do see this is an old thread but it interests me as I have similar questions and as a newbie dont know if what im doing is fundamentally flawed as seen by the more knowledgeable of you out there.
> 
> ...


if tastes good , then dont worry


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## tohenk2 (Oct 11, 2017)

Adrianmsmith said:


> Hi
> 
> I do see this is an old thread but it interests me as I have similar questions and as a newbie dont know if what im doing is fundamentally flawed as seen by the more knowledgeable of you out there.
> 
> ...


As said before - if it tastes good, don't overthink it.

If you think the distribution of the grinds is off (for whatever reason) you can shake the cup, stir in the cup or portafilter or do any combination of it you like.

A puck leveling device can be nice - I use one but I'm not sure it really helps distributing the bottom part so I also stir in the portafilter (WDT) before I use that.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I concentrate on shot weight consistency using fixed 30sec shots and find that just about anything that is done to the grinds has an effect - even smoothing with a thumb as gently as you like. So effectively I try and prepare the grinds in a way where things always remain the same.

WDT stirring etc in my case generally converts grinds that don't have serious clumps into more serious ones or even forms some when there were none. Popcorning in Niche compared with what goes on in a flat bur grinder is a red herring. Centrifugal force is bouncing beans around with surprising force in a flat bur grinder.

Initially on Niche I had no static causing grinds to collect on the side of the cup. Didn't stay like that for long. Rather than stir I just firmly tap the cup down on the tamping mat a couple of times. Gets rid of it and also compacts the grinds a little.

Then comes the dreaded invert to get the grinds into the filter basket. I do that at a speed intending to cause the grinds to fall in = bit more compaction. Just mean quickly but not over the top quickly.

Then while the cup is still on an angled tap on the mat aiming to level the grinds 'cause the heap will be lop sided. Mixed success but do reduce it a lot.

Pretamp with a chisel leveller initially positioned so that it sweeps the high into the low leaving 1mm or so height for the tamper to compress.

Net effect is less than 10% variation in my 37g shots. Usually high for some reason in the extreme. Just as couple of seconds in the case of people who weigh out on the fly. Going on my use of a Mazzer mini this may reduce when the burs finally condition.

John

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## nicholasj (Nov 11, 2013)

...and following on. This is my basket after turning it over with the cup and tapping it down a few tunes before removing the cup. I've given up swirling around a wood bbq skewer in the cup as I'm going to flip it over anyway. So I can't see the point.

Anyway, how do Niche people get rid of or fill the gap around the side.....as seen also with photo from @PPapa without reducing the evenness or density of the grinds in the middle of the basket when distributing the grinds to the sides.


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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

nicholasj,

You mentioned you gave up on the wooden skewer, wisely so, based on my trials. I found wood (especially when it is thicker than a needle) grabs the grinds & clumps them whereas prongs of thin metal do not. Have you tried making a londinium-style wdt tool.... using long pins/needles/wire, preferably 3 in a holder (wine cork?), and then give a vigourous & thorough stir in the niche cup?

It mixes grind sizes beautifully, eliminates clumps, and lets grinds fall lightly, evenly & without any mess from dosing cup to funnel & portafilter. (I don't do the direct "flip", preferring funnel... because my old habits stay with me.?)

Regardless of flipping or funnelling approach, when the grinds have been stirred this way, and have not been compacted or tapped, they fall very evenly, and a slight shake back & forth should then level them, filling the portafilter, no gaps.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I find stirring with anything isn't a good idea on the beans I use.

Going back to when I used a mazzer mini and a nice central heaps of grinds in the basket along with an even distribution of then I switched to a funnel that leaves the same depression in the grinds around the edge of the portafilter. The previous one I used, a lens hood left next to none. I'd say don't worry about it but I always pretamped with a chisel style levelling tool which also needed to be pushed against the rim of the filter basket as it's rotated to do the whole area. Then followed that with a 58mm tamper, cheap calibrated one. That left a slight rim around the puck so polished that out using the tamper in the same way as I used the leveller. Just a polish with a bit of pressure. No channelling anyway but it did improve shot consistency with a fixed shot time a touch. The leveller is just more consistent than trying to do the same thing with a thumb. They aren't that good at levelling and uneven heap as it will compress some parts more than others.

I still work this way with Niche but getting a dead even heap isn't so easy. I haven't tried the wire idea in this thread yet. Also switched to a cheapo amazon calibrated 58.5mm tamper but having tamped so many now probably don't gain anything from the calibration.  Makes it easier to try different pressures though.

John

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## Nick1881 (Dec 18, 2018)

I stir in the cup with a dissecting tool I got from Amazon, this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00207DUNU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Then I invert the cup with the portafilter on top and give it a few taps on the tamping mat, mostly they fall fairly level but it can vary with the beans. I then give them a gentle slow stir with the above tool, it's more like evening out any humps or gaps. Then I use my distribution tool and tamp.

Sounds a faff but it really doesn't take long and it's very rare I see any extraction problems, I can only think of one time I had a little squirt that just missed the cup.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

I use a dosing funnel that sits on the outside of the portafilter so it doesn't indent the grinds. You can even tamp through it but I don't do that. It has completely cured side channelling - but it wasn't cheap.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I'm having a long run of grinding straight into the portafilter with it. It results in huge pile of grinds and thanks to funnel length problems and the "reach" of the grinder I've extended the chute with aluminium foil. Then tap them well down on the tamping mat. The taps are pretty firm, results in the grinds being more or less level with the top of the filter basket. The grinds always slope down towards the handle a bit.  Working on that with mixed success but am getting pretty clean used puck extractions of late. Then leveller and tamp.

Trying to do anything about the slope manually upsets the grinder setting so trying different ways of getting more grinds over towards the handle right from the start. Each time I change that sort of thing my shot weights alter more for a fixed 30sec shot. One problem I've found is that the chute needs to be below the level of the funnel to contain all of the grinds so things currently finish up with a few grams in the chute but they just fall out when I lower the portafilter - doing that the right way may get rid of the slope.

Pours are ok but few are perfect. 2 to 1 takes a bit longer than other set up's I've used and sometime there are 3  Or more for longer for a while when I change what I do.

John

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## nicholasj (Nov 11, 2013)

lake_m said:


> I use a dosing funnel that sits on the outside of the portafilter so it doesn't indent the grinds. You can even tamp through it but I don't do that. It has completely cured side channelling - but it wasn't cheap.


 Don't the grinds go everywhere if the funnel sits on the outside of the portafilter?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've used one of these for a long time now. Must be well over 12 months and it's never caused edge channelling for me. It's something other than see later I have never had a problem with really. Just a few when I first started using a machine.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1xAluminum-Espresso-Cafe-Coffee-Dose-Funnel-Dosing-Ring-For-58mm-Portafilters/293154095922?hash=item4441588332:m:mtnYNF2xLhXliR5Gmn_uMsg

I mostly use a filter basket that is much like a 15g VST only shallower as well. I did have this problem using IMS The Single Baskets but concluded that the problem was me or the design of these baskets. Probably the later. I wasn't using that style of funnel anyway just a lens hood that didn't leave any depression around the edge.

The problem I have had with Niche and that funnel is very small quantities of grinds missing it when it's directly under the chute and some way away from it. They scatter out to a couple of 100mm. Not much but it means periodic use of a vac. No idea why.

John

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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

nicholasj said:


> Don't the grinds go everywhere if the funnel sits on the outside of the portafilter?


 No it's a tight fit .......


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## nicholasj (Nov 11, 2013)

lake_m said:


> No it's a tight fit .......
> 
> View attachment 32184
> 
> ...


 Ah yes! Very nice and I see what you mean about not being cheap! ?

not sure if my wife's budget would accommodate this but worth a try?


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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

Nicholasj, there are very inexpensive "knock-offs" (decent-style) available online.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Slowpress said:


> Nicholasj, there are very inexpensive "knock-offs" (decent-style) available online.


 True. Just bought one as the picture suggested it would be deeper than the one I was using and yes it is. 29.03mm deep including the flange that goes over the filter basket.

Any deeper than that for me at the moment would be a problem. It may or may not help with what I am trying to do.

John

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## nicholasj (Nov 11, 2013)

ajohn said:


> True. Just bought one as the picture suggested it would be deeper than the one I was using and yes it is. 29.03mm deep including the flange that goes over the filter basket.
> 
> Any deeper than that for me at the moment would be a problem. It may or may not help with what I am trying to do.
> 
> ...


 Cheers, can you point me in that direction please....may invest in one.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

nicholasj said:


> Cheers, can you point me in that direction please....may invest in one.


 https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07PLBCSDL/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 It's so heavy you may sprain your wrist.  Doubt it but it is heavy.

but if you think that will help with edge channelling I have my doubts. A leveller might but don't tamp too much with it and in real terms if the grinds are uneven they will tamp some areas more than others. Cheapo's I use are mostly from amazon so could be cheaper elsewhere. I just don't like paying stupid prices for things.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B079BYQSMT/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07DXJMTX7/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00UL8IRPG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 Tamping mat is for the distributor as grinds may stick to the sides so knock them off and brush them in. They come off rubber much more easily than silicone. It's lasting well too.

Or for a nice wooden handled 58.5 tamper. He has other sizes as well.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Italian-Walnut-Competition-Coffee-Tamper-58-5mm-Wood-Handle-/401464748388?hash=item5d7929e964

Sometimes due to tapers in baskets 58.5mm may be a bit big so it's worth keeping a 58mm and just use it offset to polish the edge after tamping. Same with a 58mm distributor always keep it pressed on the edge as it's rotated.

John

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## nicholasj (Nov 11, 2013)

Thank you @ajohn, I'll do some researching from your links and get back. Little bit of homework to do but that's always one of the interests here!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

nicholasj said:


> Thank you @ajohn, I'll do some researching from your links and get back. Little bit of homework to do but that's always one of the interests here!


  None of it helps get level evenly distributed grinds out of a Niche but on another set up I did use the levelling tool and calibrated tamper gave me very consistent shot weights with a fixed 30sec shot time. Just a few ml/gm variation until the grinder needed a bit of tweak. I put that down to doing nothing to the grinds other than levelling tool followed by a tamp. That grinder left a nice central heap. Niche produces a stronger tasting drink with slightly less coffee. That was important, just a 1/2g drop. I'm using Niche directly into the portafilter to see if I can achieve the same. The deeper dosing funnel is helping me see what is going on. Shot weight is consistent enough a lot of the time but not as precise as I would like.

John

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## Gavin (Mar 30, 2014)

nicholasj said:


> Cheers, can you point me in that direction please....may invest in one.


 You could ask @Nicknak to make you one. Check out my Niche Pimpin' thread.


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