# Upgraditus advice - 1 year in to owning Gaggia classic + MC2



## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

So 1 year in and I'm addicted, like many I started off with a Gaggia classic and an Iberital MC2 - I upgraded the steam wand on the Gaggia straight away and both have been great.

Recently I decided that I'd upgrade the grinder to a Eureka Mignon, keeping the MC2 for Decaf beans. I've been very impressed with the Eureka, it's a massive move up for me from the MC2, particularly the ability to swap hoppers between fruity Espresso and dark roast for cappuccinos without having to finish off the bag 1st.

I now realise that I can get a big boast from upgrading the Gaggia as well and I'm looking at 2 options

1. Expobar Leva Dual Boiler

2. Alex Duetto Mk IV

I've considered the Sage but decided against it mainly because I want tank like build quality. I've also decided against the Rocket R58 as I'll be changing beans often and really don't like the idea of a removable PID.

in an ideal world I'd like to keep my budget below £1500 but I would stretch to a bit more if I had too.

not sure if there are any other serious contenders out there for me to consider, keen to have a PID, and I think dual boiler is the right answer for me even though I mainly drink espresso as I also intend to start using mineral water, don't want a machine that's plumbed in (hard water area, I hate descaling!), and as a result don't want a HX machine that needs purging all the time.

I'd also like to avoid upgrading the Eureka so soon after buying it, will it stand up to the Exobar and Alex? or do I need to budget for a new grinder too?

Thanks in advance

Phobic


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

As for the grinder and upgrading, there's always a weak link in the chain and it becomes a neverending spiral of which bit of kit is worthy of the other one! At least with coffee you're only pairing a grinder with a machine unlike hifi. ... If you only had the MC2 I would say there's no point in buying a dual boiler machine without budgeting for a grinder upgrade. But from all I've read about the Mignon I am sure it will be ok with a more expensive machine (at least until you get upgraditis again!) I certainly had no problems using an R58 with a Mazzer Mini and a Eureka Zenith 65E, and although eventually I got curious and upgraded again to the Ceado but had I not been in a position to, I would've been happy with the 65E. I'm sure you'll make great coffee with a Mignon and db.

As for removable PID, ok, I get your point, but in all honesty I leave mine connected all the time, but have hardly ever changed temperature on it. It's only the display and the buttons anyway - the PID itself is on the main board inside. Having the PID on a cable, but tucked away under the drip tray, means it's easy to get to but not in the way. So I don't see it as any kind of deal breaker either way. But if you prefer having your PID and buttons fixed to the front of the machine then that opens up wider choice, as most machines have them there. R58, Duetto etc are all good machines.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Don't get my started on Hi-Fi's, Linn owner here who has had a bad upgrade obsession.....

Good that the Mignon should keep me going for a little while, might also give me a chance to scratch the upgraditus itch in the future!

I think I'll go and have a more detailed read about the rocket, it's a very good looking machine, and you make a great point about just keeping the PID tucked away.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

My PID display lives here permanently. Can be detached but it's handy to check temperature and machine status. Note that for reasons best known to themselves, Rocket didn't offset the temp values, so you have to manually deduct 13 degrees from the temp shown to get the brew temp. 107 is approx 94.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Are you looking at new only ? You could upgrade machine and grinder for your budget with someones lovingly maintained used machine from the forum.

Whilst the Mignon will not disappoint with a higher end machine, it will not flatter and I suspect that you will be on the slippery upgrade slope not long after you change the machine.

If you can I would get to somewhere like Bella Barista to try out your options.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Have you also considered the Quick Mill Verona and the Profitec 700? They are in the same price bracket as the Alex Duetto I believe.

Regarding the detachable PID, I agree with hotmetal. I have a Pro 700 and the PID display is at the front of the machine. I hardly change its values, but then again I don't change beans with different roast profiles very often. If I get a lighter bean I will increase the temp and a darker bean I will decrease the temp. The Pro 700 and the Verona have a PID display which also function as a shot timer. I find that useful as a guidance.

Regarding the grinder, don't overlook it. I had an Eureka Mignon / Gaggia Classic pair for 3 years. Then upgraditus came and I've upgraded the machine to the Pro 700. 3 months gone and I upgraded the grinder to a 64mm flat burr, the Profitec t64, which is ether that or a Mazzer mini to fit in the space I have in the kitchen. Basically my story, no doubt similar to many others, is of questioning whether there is a possibility of improving things. I am happy with my machine, but I knew the grinder was the weakest link and things could improve if I upgraded the Mignon.


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

Pretty much the only reason I went for the Pro 700 is the shot timer on the front. I change my temp once or twice a month.

As has been said plenty of times before, there is not much between machines at this level, other than personal preferences and quirks, I.e shot timer was important to me, but might mean nothing to someone else


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

My R58 was ex review and a cracking opportunity to upgrade from a modded classic that I couldn't pass up. That was the decider - had it been a Duetto, Verona or P700 I'd have gone for it just as much (though I do like the look of the R58 and the PID not being on the front is part of that). As for shot timer - my Classic had the Auber one which shut off after a set time which was good - but on an e61 machine it's the same as having a stopwatch. I have an old one next to the machine. TL;DR any of the above machines will be fantastic. If you're buying new it's worth going to BB and getting hands on with a few. If used, maybe it will come down to what's on offer within a reasonable distance/time - as long as it's been well looked after it should be fine.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

I really like having the shot timer on mine. Yes I can use my watch but it starts and stops automatically and does add to the enjoyment of use.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

@ hotmetal

thanks for the photo, that helps a lot.



working dog said:


> Are you looking at new only ? You could upgrade machine and grinder for your budget with someones lovingly maintained used machine from the forum.
> 
> Whilst the Mignon will not disappoint with a higher end machine, it will not flatter and I suspect that you will be on the slippery upgrade slope not long after you change the machine.
> 
> If you can I would get to somewhere like Bella Barista to try out your options.


Not sold on new no, I might be wrong but I don't perceive there's a high availability of used machines in this price range but if something did come up then I'd certainly consider it.

would love to be able to travel to Bella but I live near Sheffield and it's a bit of a trek, still might be worth the effort once I settle on a final list.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

some great advice here, I also really like the idea of a shot timer, one of the things I liked when I looked at the Sage.

will check out the Quick Mill Verona and the Profitec 700, thanks for the tip.

I think it's worth doing a bit more reading on grinders as well!


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

My two pence worth is this. All of these machines would give you a big boost from where you are now. However, I am persuaded by the engineering advantages of the Verona, the rotary pump orientation and the convenient boiler drains.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Thanks Rob, I was just watching a video about the pump orientation and boiler drains.

is it leak protection that you like the idea of with a vertical pump?


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

If near Sheffield might want to consider Foundry Coffee Roasters and Londinium levers if you also in the higher end of new machines and Lee might be able to help you out / point you in the right direction.

You so see the occasional higher cost machine on here but they don't pop up often as people selling them tend to be upgrading (a close eye on the for sale section required). Machines bought from forum members will tend to be better looked after with a good history as tend to put filtered / bottled water through and cleaned regularly whereas the bargain on ebay could have had London tap water through and boiler(s) full of scale; "you pays your money, you makes your choice".

Pop Lee @foundrycoffeeroasters.com a pm , might just tempt you away from all that "pump trickery"









John


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Phobic said:


> @ hotmetal
> 
> Not sold on new no, I might be wrong but I don't perceive there's a high availability of used machines in this price range but if something did come up then I'd certainly consider it.
> 
> would love to be able to travel to Bella but I live near Sheffield and it's a bit of a trek, still might be worth the effort once I settle on a final list.


Theres a few of us around Sheffield who may offer you a play with their machines. Agree that Lee / Callum are well worth a visit if they are available


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Great thanks both, will check out foundry as well. I did look at the levers briefly already, maybe need to re-look at the dimensions given where the machine is going in the kitchen as I don't really want the lever sticking out too far vertically or too high up in the air due to a wall cupboard overhead.

certainly one to think on some more.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

reading about levers and I don't think they're going to fit where I need the machine, but I'm now getting interested about pressure profiling.....

dammit, that's some expensive gear right there....

other cheaper options that the andreja profiles, 60v, or Vesuvius?

Looking at the Sage Dual again....


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## UncleJake (Mar 20, 2016)

You could hold on for the Decent Espresso...

Although, being a new machine it is completely untested in public hands - so no-one will know about reliability for quite some time - and it probably won't be available here until December if we're lucky... So many more AND's. Not the least - if you're looking for a classic looking espresso machine avert your eyes.

However - if you don't mind a modern look, AND if they get all their ducks in a row...

I'm sure you'll have seen the thread: http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?30500-Decent-espresso


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

There has been more than one second hand vesuvius recently, however whether or not there will be any more is anyone's guess - I'm certainly not parting with mine anytime soon









You are however going down a very similar thought path to that which I did not so long ago, and look where I ended up (somewhat breaking the budget)


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

The Vesuvius needs a really good grinder, it is not a forgiving machine!


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

UncleJake said:


> You could hold on for the Decent Espresso...
> 
> Although, being a new machine it is completely untested in public hands - so no-one will know about reliability for quite some time - and it probably won't be available here until December if we're lucky... So many more AND's. Not the least - if you're looking for a classic looking espresso machine avert your eyes.
> 
> ...


hadn't seen this, just read most of the thread, really interesting machine, love the idea. do I want to be an early adopter for a start up is a tough question.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

UbiquitousPhoton said:


> There has been more than one second hand vesuvius recently, however whether or not there will be any more is anyone's guess - I'm certainly not parting with mine anytime soon
> 
> 
> 
> ...


2nd hand would certainly make it an easier decision, interesting to hear that that the thought process is similar

@mmmatron thanks, i'm adding space in my growing budget for a new grinder too!


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Lever handles can be unscrewed when not in use or if judiciously placed in a corner handle often sits behind cupboard door. Just for devilments sake you could also consider a non spring lever which not only could be smaller (I.e. La pavoni) but also lever handle sits in down position, cheaper than a PP pump machine that you could modify pour by leaning on lever less or more









John


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Thanks John, using something like a Pavoni sounds more like an art, doubt I'd get any consistency.

I'd read already about putting lever machines in corners or between 2 doors, unfortunately neither are an option for me. Given how much coffee I drink taking the handle off all the time isn't going to work either. it's a shame as I think levers tick all the other boxes for me.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

If you get the chance of an L1..... Just do it. doors 'n stuff will become insignificant.

You will be looking for a bigger grinder before long though


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I feel I'm making some great progress with all your help so thanks a lot for the advice and support you're all giving.

Here's where my thinking currently is

1. I've increased my budget to £3k which needs to include a new grinder - pragmatically I don't have an upper budget limit but I'd need some *very strong rationale* to justify spending more on coffee instead of renovating my house!

2. Pressure profiling isn't a must have requirement - if it's there that's fine though

3. I would like a grinder with a good particle distribution

4. Position of the equipment means sadly a no to Lever machines and EK grinder - it's a brand new kitchen and I'm not changing it!

5. I'm a tinkerer and will really enjoy tweaking parameters - ultimately this is driven by getting the best taste for me

6. I'd rather not have to but I'm happy to mod equipment

7. I'll be using Evian and VST

Some references that might help others going through the same learning curve

Low pressure article by Michael Cameron

Ben Kaminsky video: Espresso: Why you hate it, how to fix 

Particle Size Distribution of Grinders

next step for me is grinder research, I'll then come back to the Machine...

I'm going to go and test some gear out - I might have to take a trip down to Bella

Any further advice/suggestions greatly received


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## wilse (Nov 14, 2013)

I was in your position a good few months back, and was dead set on a rocket... partly on looks if I'm honest.

I had already bought a Mazzer, to use with the Classic.

I ended up buying a expobar leva, (pump, tank/reservoir) the price was right, so was the spec.

After months of use, I have got quite used to it... well, still can't texture milk properly... haha but it makes great espresso.

I've found I very rarely have bad pulls, something I had more frequently with the classic.

As pointed out, by another member, this could be down to pre-infusion.

Only real negative with the Expo, is if I forget to check the water level, and it turns off mid flow, when the microswitch has kicked in, sensing water is low... this is to protect the boilers. Better this than a new heating element!

Build quality is very good, which was a surprise.

PM me if you need more info.

Good luck with your hunt.

w


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## caramel (Jun 22, 2016)

Phobic said:


> Thanks John, using something like a Pavoni sounds more like an art, doubt I'd get any consistency.
> 
> I'd read already about putting lever machines in corners or between 2 doors, unfortunately neither are an option for me. Given how much coffee I drink taking the handle off all the time isn't going to work either. it's a shame as I think levers tick all the other boxes for me.


Have you considered a Cremina? I replaced by Expbar Leva DB (a very capable machine) with one and can't imagine myself wanting to go back to a pump. I wanted a lever after trying coffee from an L1 but didn't have room for the Londinium in my kitchen.

It's very forgiving, I was expecting a huge learning curve but was pulling fantastic shots from the first day.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

wilse said:


> I was in your position a good few months back, and was dead set on a rocket... partly on looks if I'm honest.
> 
> I had already bought a Mazzer, to use with the Classic.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot Wilse, I might PM you once I've narrowed things down a bit


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

caramel said:


> Have you considered a Cremina?


I hadn't no but you've made me reconsider my statement above, it's not Lever machines that I don't have space for it's lever machines with springs as they need to rest upright. I actually really like the idea of springless, though would like a pressure gauge to see what's going on at the group head to help with consistent pulls.


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## caramel (Jun 22, 2016)

Phobic said:


> I hadn't no but you've made me reconsider my statement above, it's not Lever machines that I don't have space for it's lever machines with springs as they need to rest upright. I actually really like the idea of springless, though would like a pressure gauge to see what's going on at the group head to help with consistent pulls.


With a manual lever you can feel the resistance and adjust accordingly, as the solubles are extracted from the coffee the resistance gets lighter and you apply less force to the lever, it's really quite intuitive when you try it for yourself. As long as your distribution is good it is hard to pull a bad shot.


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## UncleJake (Mar 20, 2016)

Phobic said:


> I feel I'm making some great progress with all your help so thanks a lot for the advice and support you're all giving.
> 
> Here's where my thinking currently is
> 
> ...


Congrats! I'd love to be in your boat.

I suspect you'll get some resistance to the Evian from the water-fathers on here... Waitrose Essential, Volvic and Ashbeck seem to rank higher in the medals tables. However - as you like a bit of faff - perhaps you could build your own water? (i.e. use distilled water - and add only what you want into it... there are some good recipes around including Matt Pergers and indeed a book: http://waterforcoffeebook.com/products/water-for-coffee


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Grinder research ongoing:-

budget ~25% for the grinder, does that sound about right?

bigger burrs are generally better.

it seems that my biggest problem is going to be the height of the grinder! I have 50cm clearance.

Grinders that will fit....

1. Eureka Olympus 75E - 49cm - £860 with TiN burs from Bella - seems a good deal

2. Ceado E37S with short hopper 43.5cm - £1090

3. Compak E8 - with Cupping hopper - I think will fit - £1200

4. Compak E10 - with Cupping hopper - I think will fit - £1500

I think I could also make a Mazzer Major work with a Mazzer Mini short hopper if I mod the hopper sensor on the newer Major, and a Mazzer Robur it I went for a single dosing camera hood mod, can anyone confirm?

Any other short Grinders worth considering?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

UncleJake said:


> Congrats! I'd love to be in your boat.
> 
> I suspect you'll get some resistance to the Evian from the water-fathers on here... Waitrose Essential, Volvic and Ashbeck seem to rank higher in the medals tables. However - as you like a bit of faff - perhaps you could build your own water? (i.e. use distilled water - and add only what you want into it... there are some good recipes around including Matt Pergers and indeed a book: http://waterforcoffeebook.com/products/water-for-coffee


Thanks, I'll certainly play around with different waters


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Use anything but Evian.....


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

Do you want me to measure height of e8 with small hopper


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Use anything but Evian.....


lol, clearly I need to do some proper research on water.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

aaroncornish said:


> Do you want me to measure height of e8 with small hopper


that would be very kind of you if you could yes please.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Phobic said:


> lol, clearly I need to do some proper research on water.


Definitely! It's a real rabbit hole if you want it to be. Xpenno has done a lot of research on it - it's all on the forum to be found. Different mineral compositions affect extraction and taste. But if your main priority is to avoid scaling up your espresso machine, you just need to pick a water that has low TDS/dry residue. There is more to it, but tl;dr is that Waitrose Essential and Volvic mixed is pretty close to ideal, and either on its own is good. Some waters are massively hard. They taste good as water, but will kill your machine. Evian, as Boots points out, is one to avoid. As is Buxton I think.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Volvic as a base water isn't bad. I add a couple of simple white powders to it to convince me that it's better


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Thanks both, lots more reading to be done - seems like all I've been doing for the last 2 days is read about coffee!


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

progress i think.

i've discounted the Quickmill Andreja Profile due to size.

vesuvius v r60v fight out?

i like the auto on/off for the Vesuvius a lot, and controversially I like it's looks better, however it's bloody big!

the size of the R60 is much more compact which is a big plus, and it's not exactly ugly.

i'm sure either will make a cracking espresso and give me plenty of space to grow as my skills advance.

http://www.espressooutlet.net/espresso-outlet-blog/vesuvius-by-ambient-vs-rocket-r60v-espresso-machines/



> The Vesuvius has a computer controlled magnetic gear pump that allows you to adjust speeds to apply 2 to 12 bars of pressure. Transition speed between pressure levels can also be adjusted. The Rocket R60 has a traditional rotary vane pump and pressure control is achieved through a valve.


from what I've read the Vesuvius pump setup is a better method though the rocket setup still provides a great solution, is that the general consensus?

I think rocket have been around for ages and Ambient are relatively new at making machines, is that right?

think i will have to drive down to bella to test them side by side.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I would not read too much into the relative age of Ambient vs Rocket. The V has been owned, tried, tested and reviewed by various members on here, such as DavecUK and Mrboots2u. The R60 is a relatively new design.

The conversations I've had with various people would support your observation that Vesuvius has a better implementation of pressure profiling than the R60. If you weren't bothered by PP I'd say get an R58 as it's simpler. If you're set on PP you might be best with the V. It is quite big though.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Thanks Hotmetal, PP isn't a must have but certainly appeals to my tinkering side, I think it's more a consideration for me in terms of longevity as I can certainly see myself using/wanting it in the future, and therefore might provide longer term value because I shouldn't need to upgrade again (wishful thinking?! I'd buy the slayer in a heartbeat if I had more cash, it's so damn good looking!).

knowing what I'm like I can see myself buying a R58 and then in a year or 2 upgrading, that will be a waste of cash, I tend to throw myself deep into new hobbies, I've got the coffee bug, I've had the bug with other hobbies and recognise the signs well, I know how this is going to turn out!


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

A very good point. If you don't then you'll be forever wondering and that's upgraditis in a nutshell. It's what led me to replace my perfectly good 65E with the E37s - the lure of big burrs. I know I won't ever worry about PP, my R58 has a PID and yet I have hardly ever messed around with temp. But if you can see yourself getting into that, I reckon the V has got your name on it. PP done right, and there are a few on here with whom you can swap tips and profiles. I believe DavecUK was involved in the dev of this machine so I would expect no stone to remain unturned in the pursuit of proper design and build.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Certainly looking like it's the Vesuvius if I do go PP - not sure how long it might take me to get to a point of experience where I "might" want to tinker with PP given I'm currently a noob and pull ~10 shots a day. Keen to hear people's personal thoughts on experience v upgrading.

I've also been reading about Grinders, I want to single dose, mainly because I want to swap beans at least 3 times a day.

2 Grinders I'm looking at right now are E92 modded and HG1. Need to read about the Versalab as well but that's a job for tomorrow.

There seems to be mixed views on the HG1 popcorning and I can't find any particle distribution graphs other than Socratic's (which point to misaligned/under-seasoned burrs). I'm wondering if the HG1 does popcorn how big and issue it really is, will the fact that the beans jump out of the grinder reduce shards going through the burrs in the first place? just don't put them back into the grinder.....

Any other good candidate grinders to look at that are under 50cm?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

If you are planning to change beans at least 3 times a day you definitely need to single dose. And not only that, you will need a grinder with a very easy adjustment mechanism which you can consistently put in the very same place time and again.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I think you might be in danger of driving yourself nuts if you consider the number of variables you're intending to change.

1 Beans

2 Grind level

3 Water

4 Dose

5 Brew ratio

6 Temperature

7 Pressure profiles

8 Tamp

Unless I've forgotten something that's 8 factorial (n!) = 40,320 permutations (and that's allowing for one change in variable eg swapping between 2 types of bean rather than 3). I'm no mathematician so I might have got that wrong but you see what I'm trying to say. Add to that the fun of dialing in each bean and I think you'll confuse yourself so profoundly you'll never repeat a drink. You might enjoy the process but I'm not sure how much you'll learn if nothing is repeatable.

I don't want you to take this the wrong way though - feel free to disregard! Either way, you're going to end up with top kit and there are plenty of people here to help as you explore. Happy shopping!


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Agree I need to single dose.

I hear you hotmetal, my plan would be to only look at those variables in detail on a single new bean at a time, over time I'll build & keep a stock of favorite beans in the freezer with known good profiles.

I also would hope to zone into a good ranges of these variables reasonably quickly and then tweak specific variables based on what I taste. My perception is that people are able to do this on new beans within 500g. I've got an idea of the workflow that I'm thinking of, need to do a bit more reading on it but I might post about it so others can critique what I plan.

I've been reflecting on the Vesuvius, I suspect it will make a cracking coffee without fiddling with PP, but people will say if I don't plan to use PP then don't buy it. While I'm not yet sure about using PP, I do want to give lower pressure extraction a try. I know I can do that with the Sage and suspect people will have modded other machines to do it as well. need to do some more research!


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

It's going to be quite difficult to single dose on an on demand grinder and get good, consistent results in the cup. They tend to rely on the weight of beans for consistent grind size. I'm using a compak k10 pb (with doser), it works pretty well for single dosing and adjustment is easy. The only time I wish I had an on demand is when family/friends visit...it's a slow process single dosing on a big conic!


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

i think it's a case of purge more with beans in the hopper or use a grinder better suited for single dose.

plenty of good results with the versalab, hg one and Dave's done wonders with the E92.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

i think i'm narrowing in on 3 options.

1. Sage + hg one

2. Vesuvius + hg one

3. Vesuvius + Versalab

leaning to option 3 right now but going to take a look at springless levers as well.


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

I'm a week in with the Vesuvius and I absolutely love it. Started off with a 15g VST which was way too unforgiving. Using an 18g and getting some amazing results. I'm using a flat 6 bar set by xpenno but once I'm confident with it I'm going to tinker.

Would love a versalab!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Phobic said:


> i think i'm narrowing in on 3 options.
> 
> 1. Sage + hg one
> 
> ...


There is a big jump between a Sage and a Vesuvius. Between option 1 and 2, there is a jump of about 2k. That's insane.

Option 3 would be my dream, and I think that will keep you out of upgraditus for a while. 

If you have the money, Maybe a versalab will be much better choice than the HG, as the manual grinding novelty may wear out quicker than you think, specially if you are thinking of making at least 3 drinks per day with different beans each time, as per your previous post. Saying that, there was someone who added a motor to the HG One, and I think someone from this forum actually bought it.

There is also a new(ish) grinder, the EG One ( http://lynweber.com/products/eg-1/ ) which you may consider.

Disclaimer: I never owned any of the grinders stated here.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Good point on the manual grinding, though I think it will connect me even more to the coffee. I had seen the EG one, not sure I have the patience to wait though!

I think I've ruled the sage out, I just don't like how it looks.

I'm also struggling to commit to the Vesuvius, it's too bloody big and the left hand load on the water is a real pain in the ass as that's the side that needs to go against a wall.


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

I fill mine with a funnel and length of food safe tubing for this very reason. I take it plumbing in isn't an option?

Be assured though, it is a good machine, capable of a great many things.

If size or money are a concern though, then it's not like something like the Verona won't make a lovely shot...


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

I have about a 3" gap between the wall and the side panel, it's enough to stick a funnel in there. Adding tubing sounds even better!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

To save me the hassle of copying...what I use below. it's also, annoyingly, cheaper than when i purchased it! Put V on glide pads, or felts and it doesn't matter which side the wall is.

http://vesuvius.freeforums.org/an-essential-accessory-t27.html


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Thanks guys this helps me picture what I'll need to do with the wall issue, can't see my wife pulling the machine out though given it's weight so it will need to stay in place once it's there.

can you get away with less that 3"? I'm very tight on space as both the machine and grinder need to fit between the wall and hob.

Don't really want to put the Vesuvius right next to the hob when I'm cooking!


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

So this is the closest I got it to the wall and still be able to open it to fill using either a funnel with tubing attached or Dave's bottle thingy...


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

thanks for this, really helps visualise what I'll have to do.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Looks like I'm going to have to give up on the Vesuvius, it's just too big to fit, I'm kidding myself about trying to squeeze it in, and PP just isn't that much of a big deal for me to make enough of a compromise with positioning in the kitchen!

So it looks like I'm coming back full circle looking at DB machines, have done a fair bit of reading and the Verona stands out for the price and spec right now.

Would pairing it with a HG One be a good match given I want single dose? I think Versalab would be overkill....


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Well after much deliberation I've ordered the Verona and HG-1.

I'm sure this will last me a good while, and if I do ever want to go PP in the future by then hopefully there will be more machines to choose from with a smaller sized footprint.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to give me advice and help out, great community here!


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## UncleJake (Mar 20, 2016)

Phobic said:


> Well after much deliberation I've ordered the Verona and HG-1.
> 
> I'm sure this will last me a good while, and if I do ever want to go PP in the future by then hopefully there will be more machines to choose from with a smaller sized footprint.
> 
> Thanks to everyone who took the time to give me advice and help out, great community here!


Really interested to hear how you find the HG-1.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I think you will be very happy with that combo. You'll still have plenty of variables to experiment with, and the combination of a high quality well engineered machine and grinder will ensure that the coffee will be top notch, or at least, you won't be working round the kit.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

UncleJake said:


> Really interested to hear how you find the HG-1.


I'll post back and let you know how I get on. I'm realistic in terms of expectation of using a manual grind, don't expect it to be plain sailing, I think this is the best option for me personally given I want to single dose.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I've never used one, but I imagine that big flywheel makes it a lot easier than a hand held manual grinder like a Feldgrind. Nice big burrs etc and precision engineering offer good grind quality, and you control speed. I guess that's the secret.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

hotmetal said:


> I think you will be very happy with that combo. You'll still have plenty of variables to experiment with, and the combination of a high quality well engineered machine and grinder will ensure that the coffee will be top notch, or at least, you won't be working round the kit.


Good to hear, that's where my thinking has come to as well - I've spent a good week of solid research to make a decision, it's been a bit all consuming if I'm honest, I've learnt a great deal.

Happy with the choice I've made, certainly the right one for me, in truth I think I had quite a few options, it's great that you can pick the real gear to tailor your own personal circumstances.


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

The HG-1 ,

is that the grinder I saw a few weeks ago on here that someone holds it in place on their worktop with elastic bands to stop it moving as they use it?

Lovely looking grinder


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

yes that's the 1, though it doesn't sound nearly as good as it is when you put it like that


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

I think having it lashed to the worktop with rubber bands \ g clamps \ cables ties would look shocking.

Cant believe it only comes with sticky backed rubber feet.

Id be looking at more unobtrusive solutions to this moving in use problem.

For now my best idea is double sided suction cups, but unsure if the underside of the HG-1 is smooth enough for them to work.

These would be in addition to the rubber feet that come with the machine and would have to be the right height to work.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xdouble+sided+sucker+cups.TRS0&_nkw=double+sided+sucker+cups&_sacat=0


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

From what I've read as long as you keep underneath & the feet clean and apply a bit of downwards pressure it's not too big a problem.

we'll see when it arrives.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

It really only becomes a problem when grinding lighter roasted beans


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

good to hear, darker mostly for me


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Verona has landed from Bella, all set up and installed, such a great piece of kit.

I'm so glad that I didn't go for the Vesuvius, the Verona is pushing things size wise as it is!

I've already managed to pull the best espresso yet at home and because it's late it was decaf......can't wait for the morning


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Verona = nice machine...sure you will love it.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> Verona = nice machine...sure you will love it.


Plus one to that


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Verona = nice machine...sure you will love it.


The work you put into it was one of the reasons for picking it, thanks for all the effort!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I had my Verona shipped direct from QM factory and apart from running it to check everything was working OK, sadly my brand new Verona has sat it it's boxed unused....but at least if both my other DB machines go wrong, it will be bought into service. Seems a shame though.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

HG-1 here as well, very impressed with it, build quality is amazing! No problems so far with it moving around as I grind, with dark roasts I barely need to hold the handle, medium roasts need a little downward pressure but perfectly fine.

A little bit of a tight fit but I can move it back so the handle is away from the induction hob.

There's a thin dusting of grind left clinging to the removalable bottom chute that's held on by magnets, and a tiny amount clinging to the wipers, less than 0.1g, but the magnets make is very quick & easy to access and brush off.

With brushing there's 0g grind retention 17g in, 17g out, pretty cool









Loving the numbers as well, looks like they've listened to all the feedback and improved things since it 1st hit the market.

Only minor niggle is that it would have been nice if the bean cup were made from the same metal as the rest of the grinder, shame it doesn't match.

All in all I'm very happy with the choice, really suits my desire to single dose.


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## doolallysquiff (Jul 26, 2014)

Looks really good. How much did the HG-one cost after shipping, taxes & exchange rate etc. if you don't mind me asking. I'm thinking I may get one.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

doolallysquiff said:


> Looks really good. How much did the HG-one cost after shipping, taxes & exchange rate etc. if you don't mind me asking. I'm thinking I may get one.


 @doolallysquiff

£763 for the grinder

£127 shipping - it weighs a ton!

£210 important tax

*£1100 in total*


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Ouch that is a lot more than when I bought one


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

iirc from what i read i think they've gradually been putting the price up for the last 18 months.

i was aware of this but couldn't really go with the alternatives.

question is, is it worth £1100....?

tough one, it would have been a much harder decision if i had more space.


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## doolallysquiff (Jul 26, 2014)

I thought as much. A tad over my budget me thinks. Thanks. Time for a rethink.


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## doolallysquiff (Jul 26, 2014)

I thought as much. A tad over my budget me thinks. Thanks. Time for a rethink.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I have ironically removed the wipers from the HG-1 because they are the single biggest source of ground retention.....


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Is it stable when you're grinding or do you find it moving around ?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> Is it stable when you're grinding or do you find it moving around ?


 @Jumbo Ratty no problem with darker beans, you need to grip the handle firmly as you turn with medium beans though. Not a problem for me as I'm a big lad but might require a bit more effort for smaller people.


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Thanks for the update.

im glad to hear it's stable in use for you.


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