# Third wave coffee



## oracleoftruth (Jan 15, 2014)

So i've been around here long enough to hear this being chucked about. I'm not really certain what it means though. My assumption is 1St wave is original coffee houses in late 18th and 19th century that were hotbeds of dissent and politics. Coffee was probably steeped for ages in water.

2nd is...? When Italians came to uk with espresso?

And third is emphasis on flavour and how coffee is produced? I guess second wave is high roasted and third tends to be more lightly roasted?

Is any of this right and can someone give me a good definition?

Thanks


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

1st is Italians, Starbucks et al is second and trendy shops are third I think


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

It's where coffee is considered artisan, to be thought of more like wine. It can be enjoyed flavoursome and varied as opposed to caffeinated accompaniment to a meal or a simple caffeine kick to start the day. That's my take on it anyway


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I hate the term. I prefer to think of Specialty versus commodity

I guess you can look at it two ways :

1. To get the best possible quality-focused beans (as an ingredient) and treat them in a certain way (roast/brew)

2. To present those quality-focused beans in a particular way in a shop (through the setting/environment) with a particular message (culture/ethos)


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

Agreed the term bugs me too


----------



## ShortShots (Oct 2, 2013)

I'm with Gary on this, hate hate hate! its a term thats thrown about far too often, and has created its own ethos and approach to coffee which frankly creates a snobbish and elitist way of making something delicious hard for a regular consumer to understand. ....Just stopped mid-rant and realized I may have a chip on my shoulder....

Jeebsy said it most accurately and succintly. For a laugh google fourth wave coffee


----------



## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Another hater of the term. I've also heard the terms 'fourth wave' and even 'fifth wave' bandied about recently, with little to back up wtf they actually mean. GRRR!

It looks like someone has even written a wikipedia article on third wave coffee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Wave_Coffee


----------



## ShortShots (Oct 2, 2013)

This is so fourth wave bro

http://kaladicoffee.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/fourth-wave-coffee-shop-opens.html


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

ShortShots said:


> This is so fourth wave bro
> 
> http://kaladicoffee.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/fourth-wave-coffee-shop-opens.html


'The consuming pubic' *titters*


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

There's bad coffee

there's good coffee

waves are for surfing ......


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Don't have a problem with any waves - it's just a term used to denote difference

1st wave: what we were used to before the likes of Starbucks arrived on the shores

2nd wave: Starbucks, Caffe Nero etc. - more attention to method and production but reliant on over roasted long dated beans so poor coffee

3rd wave: same attention to method and production (and more) plus use of freshly roasted beans from artisan roasters


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I think the problem with third wave it has created a new breed of coffee snob. I think it's that association that I find disagreeable. "I only have ristretto as its far better" the thing is many of the people who say this have absolutely no idea why and that is another thing that bugs me the faux coffee genius. I teetered dangerously close to becoming a moron in that fashion. I can happily state I didn't and I created my own wave of moron its 1st tsunami idiot


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Now, that is something that does annoy me - snobbery of whatever ilk - coffee, food, wine etc. Going off piste a bit - when Master Chef gets to the stage when the 'food critics' are wheeled in, my blood pressure starts to rise. Jay Rayner in particular gets up my nose with his pretentious witterings. Always amuses me when they rubbish a dish for being undercooked/under-seasoned and the camera cuts to Michel and Monica commenting on the fish/meat being perfectly cooked and seasoned. But, hey, what do they know - they're only top flight chefs.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Just read the Coffee Heretic piece through gritted teeth.

"Elliot went on to explain, "Great coffee shouldn't be consumed, it should only be tasted." Yeah, right on Elliot.

"Most third wave coffee shops pride themselves in their limited offerings, the best refusing cream and sugar,". Wonder if Elliot likes to wear uniform and boots whilst patrolling his establishment?


----------



## ajh101 (Dec 21, 2013)

Something for Pseud's Corner...?


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I think its right to define a period of time in waves, however coffee & coffee trends evolve too quickly. Look at the 1st WCB compared to now!


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

Yes cupping should be an offering for a night to the customers who'd appreciate it. What boils my piss there is the total disregard for however many years of coffee that's gone before. you drink great coffee it's simple. I mean ffs you wouldn't just go to a car showroom rev an engine and leave. As Great cars aren't meant to be driven they're meant to be experienced.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

ajh101 said:


> Something for Pseud's Corner...?


Definitely - send it to Private Eye.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

CoffeeJohnny said:


> Yes cupping should be an offering for a night to the customers who'd appreciate it. What boils my piss there is the total disregard for however many years of coffee that's gone before. you drink great coffee it's simple. I mean ffs you wouldn't just go to a car showroom rev an engine and leave. As Great cars aren't meant to be driven they're meant to be experienced.


Apparently not at Elliot's place!!


----------



## oracleoftruth (Jan 15, 2014)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Just read the Coffee Heretic piece through gritted teeth.
> 
> "Elliot went on to explain, "Great coffee shouldn't be consumed, it should only be tasted." Yeah, right on Elliot.
> 
> "Most third wave coffee shops pride themselves in their limited offerings, the best refusing cream and sugar,". Wonder if Elliot likes to wear uniform and boots whilst patrolling his establishment?


The article is satirical. The author likes to wind up snobs; the article on pestle and mortar is really funny. Very Stewart Lee.


----------



## ajh101 (Dec 21, 2013)

Could we have a link please? Thanks


----------



## oracleoftruth (Jan 15, 2014)

http://kaladicoffee.blogspot.co.uk/


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

"Customers want a show, Nicholas explained, "they could never hope to have the sophisticated taste and knowledge of a skilled barista but this way we can educate them about terroir and processing methods."

Clearly, Nicholas and Elliot are made for each other.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

"Currently, our line times are averaging around 15 minutes, that's just not long enough to fully explain to the customer where their coffee is coming from," one barista said.

Picture the scene: unwitting punter stumbles in for a coffee (God forbid if it's one to go) and finds themselves in some sort of caffeine hell where they can't escape until the barista has bored them to tears for in excess of 15mins on the origins of their coffee


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Third wave coffee is putting lightly roasted acidic beans through an espresso machine and then pretending that it tastes nice.

Tongue in cheek, there. I don't like the above but some do. I'm all in favour of it if it promotes quality beans, but it is curious how the whole artisan (that's a word I hate) coffee thing has been totally hijacked by the hipster crew. One look at any of the SCAA Barista competitions shows you that.

If your face doesn't fit, you've no chance.


----------



## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I hate that term "educating the customer". I'm all for giving people a chance to try better coffee but hey if they want milk or sugar or syrup it's their choice, they're paying. It's just such a horrible term.

I do like Jay Rayner though, although he can be a bit OTT at times I feel his reviews are generally fair and he is quick to dismiss a stupid gimmick.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

April 1st already? I must have overslept...


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Expobarista said:


> Third wave coffee is putting lightly roasted acidic beans through an espresso machine and then pretending that it tastes nice.


The beans don't get acidic (as in a malfuncton/overly acidic/tart) until someone underextracts them. If the beverage is sour/acidic, then it's a defect & hard to really classify that as 'specialty'. The result in the cup is as important as the origin. Sweet coffee, with acidity like ripe grapes, plums, even tomatoes is a different thing. Acidity can be a very positive attribute. That said, within reason, I don't have a preference on roast level (mostly drink brewed), well extracted coffee mostly tastes good...I do mostly buy lighter roasted coffees but I don't drink sour, acidic coffee (after diallling in).


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

You have to take all of this with a pinch of salt. I was in Singapore one year and wandered into some Barista Championship event...this is not normally my sort of thing and I only looked in out of curiosity. it was a local event with people from Singapore and Malaysia, plus some Australians who were living over there I guess. I have never heard so much crap talked in my life. I remember one contestant a girl stating that she only drank 1 or 2 coffees per week! So you gotta ask, why on earth is she in a Barista competition. in fact this was quite a common theme, a lot of them not really liking coffee.

The roasting competitions have to make you laugh as well...but hey ho, It all about marketing, none of it is to benefit you, the consumer. no matter how much they would like to tell you it is, or how much the participants might want you to think it is. It's an industry event, by the industry for the industry.

Third wave, artisan, it's just all good marketing. You might well be Surprised to learn that a some small roasters have the big boys roast some of their coffee for them, that they then pass off as their own. Some have questionable practises when roasting, some will put packed date on a bag of coffee (which can be very naughty), others will tell you it's good for 6 months!. I am now quite cynical, I am even cynical of the taste descriptions , a lot of the time if you tell someone how it tastes, the power of belief makes them taste it (similar to the placebo effect).


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I am now quite cynical, I am even cynical of the taste descriptions , a lot of the time if you tell someone how it tastes, the power of belief makes them taste it (similar to the placebo effect).


Surely that cuts both ways & applies to any 'preference' in coffee, couldn't we all then be fooled by a cup of Costa with a flowery description? If it's enough for coffee to just taste like "coffee" (though it probably should to some degree), aren't we all going to a lot of trouble for nothing? Or does Heuheutenango taste different to a Yirgacheffe just because we're told it does?


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

MWJB said:


> The beans don't get acidic (as in a malfuncton/overly acidic/tart) until someone underextracts them. If the beverage is sour/acidic, then it's a defect & hard to really classify that as 'specialty'. The result in the cup is as important as the origin. Sweet coffee, with acidity like ripe grapes, plums, even tomatoes is a different thing. Acidity can be a very positive attribute. That said, within reason, I don't have a preference on roast level (mostly drink brewed), well extracted coffee mostly tastes good...I do mostly buy lighter roasted coffees but I don't drink sour, acidic coffee (after diallling in).


Just my opinion, but acidity and sourness are not the same thing.

I've had coffees given to me by highly rated roasters, extracted by professional roasters, that I couldn't drink. Not sour, or under-extracted....but too acidic for my tastes. Roast them dark, and you'll burn off the special flavours.

The kind of beans that have acidity (centrals, some Africans) are those that tend to be roasted lighter to preserve the acidity, because it tastes great when brewed through a filter.

Its horses for courses. You like it or you don't.

What I do like about the so- called 3rd wave is the open-mindedness, because it has brought about some bean combinations that I do like that are a big step away from the standard Italian style brazil-heavy offerings.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I also hate snobbery around coffee, however there has to be a certain seriousness , almost relentless attention-to-detail to get the very best from it (a lot can go wrong in that chain from farm to cup). This can sometimes come across as the industry being self-centered, inaccessible, with a condescending ''it must be like this'' approach. Its staggeringly hard to make excellent espresso , not in the context of this forum, but in the context of the average (not in the industry) joe who just wants a nice quite cup of coffee at home.

Sugar in well brewed coffee , for example - I think the majority of us know the detrimental effect this has , however trying to communicate this to someone who has never experienced well brewed coffee can be 'a battle' Perhaps the mindset shouldnt be of going into battle , but instead seeking an opportunity to engage. If they try the well brewed coffee , dont enjoy it and adding sugar allows them to enjoy it then its their choice - dont fight them .


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Don't think it's staggeringly hard to make espresso - takes skill for sure. Real skill is pour over - no place to hide poor technique. Always go for pour over as first drink ordered at any new place I visit as a test. Sadly, almost invariably disappointed with the result.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Surely that cuts both ways & applies to any 'preference' in coffee, couldn't we all then be fooled by a cup of Costa with a flowery description? If it's enough for coffee to just taste like "coffee" (though it probably should to some degree), aren't we all going to a lot of trouble for nothing? Or does Heuheutenango taste different to a Yirgacheffe just because we're told it does?


The coffees taste different for sure, but the descriptions bother me a little. Plus there's a lot of things that we miss from a description. Also when I say taste of coffee, think of it like chocolate, you have.

Cadburys, Galaxy, Lint, Hershey etc.., all chocolate, all taste of chocolate, BUT all those chocolates taste completely different (at least they do to me). Could I describe the differences, probably not. in many respects coffee can be the same. I'm not saying you don't get pronounced blueberries, or citrus etc.. notes in some coffees, I just think some of the descriptions go too far.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Fair point, I tend to look at a lot of descriptions as 'what you can possibly get', over a range of development. Some have an overrriding flavour that's hard to miss, other flavours might pop out more in differing circumstances...I certainly don't hit them all. Giving roasters the benefit of the doubt, I guess it makes sense to paint with a broad brush when not knowing how the coffee will be brewed, or how consistently.


----------

