# More money than sense



## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

Hi one and all

This is my very first post, my question is

When purchasing a top end grinder for the home at what price point are you no longer going to get an improvement in your grind quality for espresso ? If you spend for example £600 on a grinder brand new and then spends twice as much on another is there a taste difference to justify the price difference between the two? Or is it just over kill on machine with industrial parts?

Cheers

Al


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hi and welcome

that's a great first post and I suspect this will stretch to a few pages before the end .

Ultimately it depends on the individuals taste buds , how and what they taste .

some people will tell you they will never pick out taste descriptors on In espresso no matter what combination of equipment used ,but they still enjoy what they drink .

This doesn't make them any better or worse at coffee or life than the person who can tell you that the taste lavender and essence of action man using a £2k grinder ...it just means that the later will probably spend more on a grinder to find more taste for them ...

people just taste and experience things differently ..









there is no "increase in taste versus more cash cash spent" equation that makes any sense ( especially on this forum).

I'll leave it to others to debate now ....


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Law of diminishing returns plus the effect of not matching an expensive grinder with a capable machine


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

Thanks for the kind welcome mr boots 2u.

Hopefully I will learn something more than I already know main reason for joining, and thanks for your input as well much appreciated


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Boots - you worry me at times......

Essence of action man. Sounds like youve frequented some strange bars or have associations with people who frequent these bars









I'd say that theres an improvement from a budget burr grinder to a £250/£350 grinder. Then theres a step change with a large burr grinder (£1000 + ?). At that point youre getting towards diminishing returns on the extra investment and moving towards differences rather than improvements.

.... unless youre looking at the EK43 before the EK brigade beat me up


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## centaursailing (Feb 27, 2012)

Welcome Tiny Tamper, you ask a really good question and I'm sure people far more experienced than me will give you deeper/broader insights.

For what it's worth, it seems to me that a 'top end grinder' for the home sometimes gets labelled as 'prosumer' and there are lots of so-called prosumer grinders about! For example, when buying my Vario-W it was referred to as 'prosumer' grinder and I had high hopes of never wanting/needing to upgrade but alas, I fell victim to the inevitable sickness of upgraditis and am about to buy an Eureka Zenith 65E from Bella Barista (£499 to forum members only) which I think might also be called 'prosumer' by some. My conclusion is a bit like having a favourite coffee, it's the one you think works the way you like most and gives the best taste for your money









Rod


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Expobarista said:


> Law of diminishing returns plus the effect of not matching an expensive grinder with a capable machine


Yep........ That's true


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

I was thinking of a k30 or k10 along with a R58 should work out ok?


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Since from everything I have read the grinder is the weakest link in the espresso chain and the ones thing that should improve (considering it is 2014) I guess it is not only a question of budget but also maybe new technologies should be involved. That said it is amazing that the current king of the hill is a 30 year old spice grinder...


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Tiny tamper said:


> I was thinking of a k30 or k10 along with a R58 should work out ok?


If you have the budget for a new k30 or k10 then why not an EK43?


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

Thanks for the reply Rod


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

It's the esthetics put me off that particular grinder


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Tiny tamper said:


> I was thinking of a k30 or k10 along with a R58 should work out ok?


Is your budget new or used ...?

Do you want to single dose

Do you want to change coffees a lot or not

Would you consider a hg1 for example ( big burr hand grinder )

Compak will be refreshing the k10 lines later this year for example

My advice try out a conical versus flat burr , they will deliver different tastes to some people

If your looking at big flat burrs don't rule out the k8 based on other forum rushers recomendation

Used is always a better avenue for these type of grinders would allow you to consider other girders such as a mythos , mazzer royals ...


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Welcome to the forum Al and thanks for a really interesting and thought provoking first post.

As has been said on this forum many times, the grinder is probably more important than the espresso machine and do make a significant difference to the quality/flavour profile. Grinders with flat burrs produce different results to grinders with conical burrs. Whether it is worth spending twice as much on a grinder is, of course, subjective. There is, however, no doubt some grinders are capable of getting flavours out of the bean other grinders simply cannot replicate - whether this is worth the extra cost is a matter for debate.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Tiny tamper said:


> It's the esthetics put me off that particular grinder


There are lots of things to consider when looking at the best grinder for you .

I would put esthetics at the bottom of the list against retention , functionality , ease of use etc and how they taste !!!!!! (applies to all grinder not just the ek43 ...)


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

working dog said:


> Boots - you worry me at times......
> 
> Essence of action man. Sounds like youve frequented some strange bars or have associations with people who frequent these bars
> 
> ...


........where do you live???


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

My budget is for either as I'm at the beginning of saving for my new setup, I would like an on demand, with the same bean most of the time not alot of dialing in required for me I don't chop n change, I like the look of the Mazzer Mini e type a as well and this is why I was unsure as to which price would bring the best result .


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

I live in Northern Ireland


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

So what would you say is a great flavour extracting grinder? , that's kinda were I was coming from initially I don't mind the cost the flavour is the most important thing for me at least.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Tiny tamper said:


> I was thinking of a k30 or k10 along with a R58 should work out ok?


K30 had the closest grind distribution consistency to the EK43 in a test with two other high end grinders. K10 is beautifully put together - not too big and delivers great espresso. Both would do a R58 justice.


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

I currently use rave coffee ' s signature blend it's amazing Imo I love the stuff I'm going to try their Italian job Nxt will let u know what it's like


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Tiny tamper said:


> So what would you say is a great flavour extracting grinder? , that's kinda were I was coming from initially I don't mind the cost the flavour is the most important thing for me at least.


If you are in the lucky position where cost is not an issue, you would be well advised to check out grinders on your short list with a field trial. A visit to somewhere like Bella Barista where you can get hands on would be ideal. You really want to test the grinder with the espresso machine you've got your sights on.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Sorry to butt in - but just want to check I'm on the right track here: When you're all saying K10 you're talking Compak - and K30 = Mahlkonig, is that right? I'll slope off again after this!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jonc said:


> Sorry to butt in - but just want to check I'm on the right track here: When you're all saying K10 you're talking Compak - and K30 = Mahlkonig, is that right? I'll slope off again after this!


Yep............


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

I will have to give this ek43 a bit more thought I dismissed it straight out of the gate, some more food for thought


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Mrboots2u said:


> Yep............


Thanks; sloping off.


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

Looks like I'm going to have to save for a trip over to bella b first then lol I was just going to go with what I thought would be the best combo might it now looks like my pallet might not agree


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Can you get to belfast and try some coffee shops there . Will have big conicals etc


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

Ahhhhhh now there's a man with plan yes I could contact a few cafe's over here see what they got and visit them brilliant idea


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Tiny tamper said:


> Ahhhhhh now there's a man with plan yes I could contact a few cafe's over here see what they got and visit them brilliant idea


Establishment will have some tasty grinders .

3fe in Dublin too.

Good luck !


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Tiny tamper said:


> Looks like I'm going to have to save for a trip over to bella b first then lol I was just going to go with what I thought would be the best combo might it now looks like my pallet might not agree


Absolutely. There have been loads of forum members taking a trip to BB and coming away with different kit than they first envisaged. In the long run, the effort of going to BB will pay dividends. Make sure you take beans you are familiar with and like and use them in testing.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Tiny tamper said:


> Ahhhhhh now there's a man with plan yes I could contact a few cafe's over here see what they got and visit them brilliant idea


Will be dependant on the coffee they serve but doubtless some places will have had mazzers, and other stuff , ask the baristas what they think and why they like the taste . Some of their opinion on grinders will be dependant on how easy it is to run an efficient service with them too though


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

Thanks for all your input guys you have definitely changed how I'm going to pick my grinder and machine . I will keep you posted as to any progress I make


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Tiny I would definitely consider a Mythos as well, when I was talking to Coffeechap about possibilities for my upgrade I mentioned the K30 and he said it wouldn't really have been such a big step up grind consistency wise from my Brasilia RR55 OD (both have 64mm burrs), I didn't have the budget for a K8 or K10 fresh and the deal I got on my Mythos was too good to say no to. I was genuinely surprised when the leap from Brasilia to the Mythos was almost as big as the leap from an MC2 to the Brasilia. Another possibility would be a Mazzer Kony-E I think Coffee Omega were doing those for £1100 delivered, but like all the large conical, bar the HG1, it has a lot of grinds retention whereas a Mythos only has ~1g retention.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have no experience of an EK43, but, I suspect most of those that are still at the drooling stage and own one, use it for both brewed and espresso. If you switch between the 2 styles, then I imagine it is amazing, but, if you only want one or the other it may not be so good.

K30 is now quite old by design. I have had a couple and TBH, they did nothing for me.

K10 is amazing, but, being a conical has big grind retention issues. If, like I did, you run the same bean through it most of the time then that solves that problem. It does mean at the start of a day, you need to purge the grinds held within, which might be 18 to 26 gms. Me, I just drank them!

Eureka Mythos, probably one of the best all round performers across the board, but unless you can find a decent second hand one, they are expensive.

K8 fresh, runs the Mythos extremely close in every department, and I kept my K8 and sold my Mythos, so impressed was I.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If buying new the compak refresh with treated burrs and the new burr alignment system may be worth looking at , think they are looking at July ....


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Charliej said:


> Another possibility would be a Mazzer Kony-E I think Coffee Omega were doing those for £1100 delivered


Coffee Omega do advertise Mazzers but whether they have them in stock is another question


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

Thanks for the info charlie I shall give it a good look over that's a small amount of retention for sure


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

Yes I have them saved as a possible place of purchase for a Mazzer


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> If you switch between the 2 styles, then I imagine it is amazing, but, if you only want one or the other it may not be so good.


I use it for both, but even just for espresso it's amazing. AMAZING


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

I do drink the same bean all the time as I love the one I use (rave coffee signature blend) but it's not the best for espresso it shines in milk based drinks but I'm wanting to get into espresso alot more and my current set up just ain't good enough.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Was talking to Boots about this. My favourite cafe in London (Craft Coffee) used the EK for espresso but had a traditional grinder for milk drinks as they didn't thought the EK worked better with longer pours which didn't leave enough space in the cup for the milk. Boots had similar reservations but Systemic Kid seems to get great results with the EK pours in milk.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Something to consider Tiny - grinders you are looking at can bring out the individual characteristics of the bean so you may end up wanting to trying more varieties which means considering grinder retention. If you do start considering the EK as the wild card - it can do things that other grinders mentioned can't - that is - achieve extraction yields in excess of 22% which opens up the sweetness of the bean in espresso. It also enables you to extract from lighter roasts without getting much acidity.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

The one thing that all of you EK owners have said though is that it does do espresso, but not espresso as you previously knew it, whether that is a thing that Tiny wants is a different matter, after all it's not that it's better full stop it's different.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The ek43 is not the be all and end all of grinders, you really should consider what you will be using a grinder for, if you are thinking about multiple brewing methods then witk out doubt the current ho to grinder is the ek43 however it is a different type of espresso to other grinders, you will absolutely loose the mouthfeel compared to a big conical and the shot will extract completely differently. If your focus is purely espresso then conicals are superb however they retain coffee unless you boot for an hg1. The versalab is a knockout grinder with very good consistency and is excellent in the cup for espresso. Unless you are lucky as many were on here that low have the ek43 expect to be paying around £2000 for that grinder, £1000 will buy you a whole lot of used Titan grinder.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Another thing is that unless you have a pressure profiling machine then the pour from the ek43 will gush after about 15 seconds


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Was talking to Boots about this. My favourite cafe in London (Craft Coffee) used the EK for espresso but had a traditional grinder for milk drinks as they didn't thought the EK worked better with longer pours which didn't leave enough space in the cup for the milk. Boots had similar reservations but Systemic Kid seems to get great results with the EK pours in milk.


Longer pours on the LI are 40grms max! Find lighter beans require the EK to be close to zero to get decent length pours. Using Atkinson's Prototype beans through a Robur in flat whites which produce a light malty taste with a back note of green apple, the EK turns up the green apple note with no sourness.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> witk out doubt the current ho to grinder is the ek43.


Check out Dr dre here


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> Another thing is that unless you have a pressure profiling machine then the pour from the ek43 will gush after about 15 seconds


This makes absolutely no negative impact to the cup quality though, hard to relax and just accept it granted. The shot pressure profiles itself, ie declines towards the end

Then theres the turkish option too.....


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

I am now thinking of the longevity of the grinder and how and if my taste changes will it be able to adapt. Is there any no no Grinders for flexability of Light - dark roasts?


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Tiny tamper said:


> I currently use rave coffee ' s signature blend it's amazing Imo I love the stuff I'm going to try their Italian job Nxt will let u know what it's like


Stick with the Signature if using milk

IJ is good for Italian style espresso but not good in milk.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Unless you enjoy pronounced acidity in espresso that are characteristic of many light roasts, don't know any grinder that can balance the acidity better than the EK. Be interesting to hear other views on this.


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

Thanks for that expobarista I was going to order it in the next few days I can't make espresso worth a dam atm so appreciate the heads up cheers


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Ahh I might not have been clear...

Italian Job does a very good job of replicating the sort of espresso you get all over Italy. It is also exceptionally easy to make. If its just espresso you want it for it is good...

...but when you put it in milk it tends to lack the depth and richness of flavour that Sig has.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Tiny tamper said:


> I am now thinking of the longevity of the grinder and how and if my taste changes will it be able to adapt. Is there any no no Grinders for flexability of Light - dark roasts?


Lots of grinders will make espresso from dark and light roasts , if you have the skills and knowledge to extract them correctly .

Cafes use mazzers, anfims , compaks , simonellis and mahlkonigs with dark ,medium or light roasts ..

The burrs size ( smaller to larger ) and type ( flat to conical ) will help shape the taste of whatever bean you are using. People extracted light roasts before the EK started being used and people will continue to enjoy light roasts using roburs hg1 etc. As noted earlier the ek makes a different type of espresso ( clarity ,mouthfeel. ) .

Often lighter roasts are dismissed as difficult , before people change the way they extract a different bean or roast level (from dark to light - it's not one dose / temperature or ratio fits all coffee ) . Of course some people prefer darker roasts .....and again there is nothing wrong with that .

When you try coffees out at the cafés take note of what they are using , try and get a split pour ( two shots one in milk , one as espresso ) and see how they taste to you , with the equipment they are using .


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

TT. Buy the Italian job and make your own mind up. You never know you may love it.


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

It seems my question was pretty loaded, as I have now more info to mill over (sorry for the pun) than I realised, just goes to show ignorance really is bliss lol.

A big thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

I will do Mrboots2u oops that rymed lol, seems I'm on longer odyssey than I first thought, but that's a good thing as there's nothing worse than buyers remorse, something I'm more confident I can now avoid thanks to to guys on here


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