# Setup advice should I stick with what I know ?



## Captainb (Aug 19, 2014)

Hi all,

i was hoping for some opinions on a new coffee setup.

my lodger bought a delonghi perfecta esam5400 factory refurb for a very good price.

I've been using it daily and been loving my espresso, Americans, cappuccino etc.

however he's moving out and I'll be without coffee









in my panic'd state I was going to buy the same model. However I want to investigate some other options. The bean to cup is very handy but there seem to be so many different components you hear moving about it just seems like it's not going to be reliable with age. And expensive repair bill coming.

So I would like to look at a potential separate system. Need a grinder, tamper, machine and steamer

I would welcome any advice and pitfalls .

Looking for a good solid performance setup

thanks


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Do you have any idea of your total budget yet. Are you thinking something to get you started and learn skills on or something to last a lifetime?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Need to advise your budget really?


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## Captainb (Aug 19, 2014)

Don't really have a budget . I normally buy good mid-price kit. Find if I buy too cheap it's not quite what I want and with top end feel guilty I spent too much on it lol

I want something that will last a good few years.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

£300-£350 will set you up with a decent used system - machine, grinder and bits and pieces - scales, jug etc. Spending more, will increase your options.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

You might be advised to describe your skill level.

I'm not trying to put you down here but members would benefit from knowing what your experience with the coffee making process is, that way they might steer you in the right direction.

Ian


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

How much time do you want to spend making a drink, push one button or have separate grinder and machine and play around with different settings?


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## Captainb (Aug 19, 2014)

Thanks guys

£300-350 would be fine.

I played around with the esam5400 setting it up to my taste. However it is electronic settings so combined grain size, coffee amount and wAter amount and grind size. It is very customisable. I took the standard settings as a start point and fine tuned to give a super smooth long finish coffee with no bitter ending.

milk frothing is generally ok as long as I use enough milk seems more difficult to get the consistency I like with just the correct amount. Been practising my latte art. The mrs is impressed.

Ive no experience beyond what I've been doing over the last 4-5 weeks. Am I nieve in thinking you just set the machine up and never have to touch it again ?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Afraid so, you need to spend a little more time at the machine/grinder than you would with a bean to cup.

However the rewards are worth it when you get it right.

Its like everything, practice and patience go a long way!


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## Captainb (Aug 19, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> Afraid so, you need to spend a little more time at the machine/grinder than you would with a bean to cup.
> 
> However the rewards are worth it when you get it right.
> 
> Its like everything, practice and patience go a long way!


Oh interesting. what's are the causes of variation when you make each coffee ?

i thought if you grind the grinder measure the amount dispensed consistantly ?

and the machines have set water amounts.

Sorry for sounding like such a noob. I must admit that at work they used to have costa beans and the coffee did seem to vary a bit depending on who made it but I couldn't figure out why.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Some of the very serious machines and grinders will have volumetrics and measured grind doses, but for mere mortals, getting things consistent is the biggest learning curve.

I'm a good example of someone with limited experience and budget.

- I've got a used (bought here) Mazzer Mini which has a doser that collects the grinds and dispenses them when one 'thwacks' the lever. Note that the 'doser' doesn't dose consistently, it's a bit of a misnomer in a home situation. It just dumps the grounds into the portafilter a few random grams at a time.

- My machine is a (again, used, bought here) Gaggia Classic which is often quoted as being a good 'entry level' espresso machine. It's had the pressure wound down to 9.5-10 bar, and has a computermabob to help control temperature.

Kit cost about £400 second hand.

Variables (the main ones!)

You need to weigh the amount of grinds you put in the portafilter, using a scale that's accurate to (ideally) 0.1g

You need to adjust the grind to that bean (at its state of humidity and age post-roast on the day) so that it extracts in about 25 seconds for roughly twice the number of grammes out as you put ground coffee in. (e.g. 18g > 36g in 25s might be said to be 'typical').

Time for extraction is a function of tamp, basket load, machine pressure and grind level, not to mention volume/brew ratio (I think!)

Flavour will depend on the bean, the grind level, the extraction time (see above) and also the temperature and pressure.

Then there's the milk - getting a good microfoam texture takes a bit of practice, and you need to avoid these plastic "crappuccinator" panarello attachments or you'll end up with big bubbles big troubles.

So, there are actually so many variables that every shot is an adventure when you're starting out with lower-end kit. It gets easier with practice, and (so I'm told) very expensive kit, ironically!

Don't let that put you off though - but you do have to enjoy the ritual/journey and think of it as a new hobby rather than a new coffee machine&#8230;


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

^^What he said^^


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## Captainb (Aug 19, 2014)

hotmetal said:


> Some of the very serious machines and grinders will have volumetrics and measured grind doses, but for mere mortals, getting things consistent is the biggest learning curve.
> 
> I'm a good example of someone with limited experience and budget.
> 
> ...


Thank you for a very comprehensive view. Much appreciated


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

He's dead right. If you want to do it manually (what we all see as the 'proper' way) then you need to appreciate it will take some time and practice to get something that will taste as good as your old beam to cup machine. However after that you will keep improving until you achieve something far superior to what your beam to cup ever could. Even with an entry level machine like a gaggia classic, which is a fantastic machine to learn on.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Some great advice in this thread so far.

If you can afford to spend more than the above mentioned amount it should be something to consider. £400 will buy you a Gaggia Classic and a low end grinder, which will get you really good espresso at home with time and practice, but its difficult to get solid consistency and it can be very frustrating.

In the range of £700-800 will jump you in with a much better machine capable of delivering much better consistency. It will still take practice to get right, but it can eliminate a lot of the frustration.

Basically if you care about your coffee and want to learn the process £400 will get you a 'starter setup', if you have the means its is almost doubtless that you will want to upgrade down the line, so if you can then spend a bit more and get on a few rungs up the ladder.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

D_Evans said:


> £400 will buy you a Gaggia Classic and a low end grinder, which will get you really good espresso at home with time and practice, but its difficult to get solid consistency and it can be very frustrating.


£400 will get you a used Classic and an SJ.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Or a Mazzer Mini and a fully pimped and PIDded Classic, naked PF, VST basket etc. ;-)


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Or if your name is Dylan £300 could get you a used classic and 2014 Ti burred Mazzer Major


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Charliej said:


> Or if your name is Dylan £300 could get you a used classic and 2014 Ti burred Mazzer Major


That was a steal - literally.... don't tell the rozzers


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Sorry, yea I was thinking of new prices, but yea S/H you can get a really good grinder and a Classic.

My main point was about the Classic however, it can be a frustrating machine to use.

The temperature is unstable, to combat this you need to 'temperature surf' which means running the shot at a particular time during the boiler heating process.

The boiler is tiny, even a double shot can suffer from temperature run off at the end of a shot, and you cant pull shots back to back.

You need to wait between shot and steam, if you drink milk based drinks this is a pain, if you are making more than one its very time consuming.

I hd a Classic for a while and I got some great coffee out of it, and it was a great step on the ladder. All of the above are things you only solve by paying 3-4x the price of the Classic, so if money is a serious concern then the Classic is the right choice. But I dont think anyone here would disagree that if you have the means to get a better machine then you should.


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