# Active cooling of grinder elements



## Canyon fodder (Jun 14, 2015)

Hi,

I develop heat exchangers for thermal management at work, so wondered if active cooling has been tried in grinders to control temperature -- eg heat pipes and peltier devices -- any thoughts?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Nuovo Simonelli Mythos Clima Pro......has elements to maintain and heat and fans to cool down....


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mazzer Kold cools, Clima Pro warms


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## Canyon fodder (Jun 14, 2015)

I took a look and it is all a bit 1980s home PC tech., which is surprising really.. Do you think there is a market for a thermal PID controlled grinder (or mod.) which nails temp to set value with controllability?..


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Mazzer Kold cools, Clima Pro warms


Which begs the question; why are opposing functions both deemed an improvement? I always thought cooler was better so the oils didn't degrade, hence large burr sets and low speeds. I can only imagine the idea behind the Clima Pro is that by pre warming, you maintain some sort of temp stability throughout the day?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Canyon fodder said:


> I took a look and it is all a bit 1980s home PC tech., which is surprising really.. Do you think there is a market for a thermal PID controlled grinder (or mod.) which nails temp to set value with controllability?..


I think you would need to prove first that minute differences in temperature could have any noticeable effect on the end result.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

hotmetal said:


> Which begs the question; why are opposing functions both deemed an improvement? I always thought cooler was better so the oils didn't degrade, hence large burr sets and low speeds. I can only imagine the idea behind the Clima Pro is that by pre warming, you maintain some sort of temp stability throughout the day?


Betamax v VHS innit.

Bit of reading here:

https://colinharmon.wordpress.com/2013/10/14/the-grinder-era/


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## Canyon fodder (Jun 14, 2015)

It may be marketing, re VHS etc., but consistent I suppose temperature is the goal. Looking at the cooling-grinder mentioned above they use thermal mass and adding a fan which is way short of what is possible and ultimately incapable of handling 100s of Watts of heat for more that a minute before temperature will rise significantly.

i guess I need to get some hard data and start developing -- anyone interested (or a, I nurding-out


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Your asking the wrong audience.

Grinder temperature is only an issue in coffee shops where high volume causes the grinder to heat up. It is a non-issue in the home.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

hotmetal said:


> Which begs the question; why are opposing functions both deemed an improvement? I always thought cooler was better so the oils didn't degrade, hence large burr sets and low speeds. I can only imagine the idea behind the Clima Pro is that by pre warming, you maintain some sort of temp stability throughout the day?


Stability is more important than whether it's hot or cold is my guess.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Dylan said:


> Your asking the wrong audience.
> 
> Grinder temperature is only an issue in coffee shops where high volume causes the grinder to heat up. It is a non-issue in the home.


It can be, maybe not to as greater degree, my kitchen changes temp quite a bit through the day. It's not just the temp of the beans or the grinder, it's a combo of both. If you control both of these things then things should remain more stable day to day as well as during a single day. I agree it might not be a deal breaker for many but I guess it would depend on, effectiveness , price and ease of use at the day.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Stability is more important than whether it's hot or cold is my guess.


I'd say the same but if the pf is trying to get up to 93 degrees almost straight after grinding warm seems to make more sense


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Its all here I believe http://www.tampertantrum.com/tamper-tantrum-lite-the-fumbally-colin-harmon/


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> I'd say the same but if the pf is trying to get up to 93 degrees almost straight after grinding warm seems to make more sense


Agreed, could be why the shots I've had taste so great on the mythos one.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Agreed, could be why the shots I've had taste so great on the mythos one.


And if the grinder is warming up throughout the day as you pull more and more shots then heating works with that rather than fighting it


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

Canyon fodder said:


> any thoughts?


1. more stable grinder temps should lead to more stable grind settings, which is of course a good thing.

2. in commercial use, it's probably not a good thing for unground beans to be sitting atop an 70C grinder for significant periods of time.

3. there are some controversial claims made that moderately warm beans (~40C) are slightly less brittle and therefore grind more evenly -- a good thing.


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## goodq (Oct 10, 2011)

hotmetal said:


> Which begs the question; why are opposing functions both deemed an improvement? I always thought cooler was better so the oils didn't degrade, hence large burr sets and low speeds. I can only imagine the idea behind the Clima Pro is that by pre warming, you maintain some sort of temp stability throughout the day?





Xpenno said:


> Stability is more important than whether it's hot or cold is my guess.


This is quite interesting. Would be interesting to know at what temperature the grinder needs to be for coffee to taste best. Could be coffee dependent ? Roast dependent?











Canyon fodder said:


> I took a look and it is all a bit 1980s home PC tech., which is surprising really.. Do you think there is a market for a thermal PID controlled grinder (or mod.) which nails temp to set value with controllability?..


I wonder how quickly can a control system react to temperature changes in a grinder? I say this not knowing how quickly temperatures vary during each grind cycle for one shot. (not sure if its that severe)


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

goodq said:


> This is quite interesting. Would be interesting to know at what temperature the grinder needs to be for coffee to taste best. Could be coffee dependent ? Roast dependent?


There are different schools of though on this. As AndyS stated, warming beans could result in more even grinding but potentially increase degradation of the beans thus the taste. There is also a school of thought that says that lots of fines is good in helping ensure high espresso extractions (potentially why the EK is favoured by many), you may be able to increase fines by cooling the beans and making them more brittle. My guess is that there will be people who prefer both options as is life


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

My guess is that all of this is largely irrelevant in a domestic scenario but of great value commercially. My thoughts are that most of the heat in a grinder comes from constant use. Cafés dial in in the morning and may find they need to alter the grind again as soon as it's up to temperature. At home, doing maybe max 8 shots (or even 16) the temperature will be more due to ambient than burr or motor generated. I'm also inclined to agree that pre-heating is 'going with the flow' on terms of making the morning dial-in representative of conditions expected later in the service. As for beans in the hopper being degraded by sitting on a warm grinder, it was ever thus, but in a busy cafe they won't be there very long anyhow.


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## Taff (May 5, 2015)

garydyke1 said:


> Its all here I believe http://www.tampertantrum.com/tamper-tantrum-lite-the-fumbally-colin-harmon/


Love these geeky podcasts. Most interesting thing I took out of that was washing the burrs in soap raised extraction by 1% !!?! I don't doubt it, but would love to know the reasons.


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

Taff said:


> ...Most interesting thing I took out of that was washing the burrs in soap raised extraction by 1% !!?! I don't doubt it, but would love to know the reasons.


By removing the oily residue from cumulative grinding off of the burrs they will in effect be sharper and grind more efficiently.


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