# Water temp



## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Hi ... I'm still learning so bear with me but my water coming thru my BE won't get any hotter than 74 Celsius which, as I believe, is not optimum for extraction. I enter program mode, everything seems to work except that the clean me light won't illuminate. The program 4degrees (f) light seems to stick yet my water doesn't get any hotter?? I understand I need to be around the 90c mark, yes? It's never going anywhere near that. How do I reset the machine?

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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

skylark said:


> Hi ... I'm still learning so bear with me but my water coming thru my BE won't get any hotter than 74 Celsius which, as I believe, is not optimum for extraction. I enter program mode, everything seems to work except that the clean me light won't illuminate. The program 4degrees (f) light seems to stick yet my water doesn't get any hotter?? I understand I need to be around the 90c mark, yes? It's never going anywhere near that. How do I reset the machine?
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 How are you measuring it? 
Because of the way the thermocoil/jet work the flow affects the water temp.

So if you just measure it coming out of the group head then it will be around 75deg. 
In order to measure it as close as it would be you need to heat the PF in boiling water for a while. Then put in the dual wall basket. Then shove a thermometer through the PF sprout just far enough to hit the jet of water coming out of the basket hole. 
When you do this when the machine is fully warmed it will simulate what the coffee is getting.

For reference on my BP. 
straight out of group - 75

by method above 92 ( I can increase this to 95 or reduce to 88)


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Thanks but I can't get my head around this. There are YouTube videos out there showing water temp straight from group head at around the 90c figure after having increased it in program mode. Surely the water hitting the espresso cannot increase in temperature as you seem to be saying?? After all it's that which is hitting the coffee.

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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

skylark said:


> Thanks but I can't get my head around this. There are YouTube videos out there showing water temp straight from group head at around the 90c figure after having increased it in program mode. Surely the water hitting the espresso cannot increase in temperature as you seem to be saying?? After all it's that which is hitting the coffee.
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 Can you link to the videos? 
The BE might be different on this as it has a thermocoil.

How long are you warming the machine up for? Are you purging steam before measurement?


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

skylark said:


> Thanks but I can't get my head around this. There are YouTube videos out there showing water temp straight from group head at around the 90c figure after having increased it in program mode. Surely the water hitting the *espresso cannot increase in temperature as you seem to be saying??* After all it's that which is hitting the coffee.
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 No, Thats not what I am saying.

I am saying that reducing flow (by having as espresso puck/dual wall filter in) this allows the thermocoil to heat properly.

It's like the old style electric showers that would heat up if you turned down the flow so the water spends more time in the heating system.


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Here's a video .. straight from the shower head 189-191 f (it's American)






Take a look ....

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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Is he not doing exactly what I said???

He basically just proved what I said that if you measure it with the normal basket in (single wall) the flow is too high and the temp drops. 
You need to restrict the flow


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Yeah to measure it accurately you really need a Scace or at least a thermo couple embedded in a coffee puck.

___
Eat, drink and be merry


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

hotmetal said:


> Yeah to measure it accurately you really need a Scace or at least a thermo couple embedded in a coffee puck.
> 
> ___
> Eat, drink and be merry


 I've previously measured the expected temperature with the method Tom described using a milk thermometer - seems to do the trick just fine for both the Barista Pro and Express, having had the same concerns before.

@skylark make sure the portafilter is hot and use a dual wall single basket. Measuring at/in the pf spout should get you to 90+ degrees after a few runs.


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Any comments on this one?

Same guy, different results.






Oh, and what's a 'scace'?

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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

I don't think that guy really knows what he is doing. 
Why don't you try the method I described and see what you get.


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

I have done and am not not getting a couple if degrees higher, around 77c. Think I need to get another stat just to confirm ...

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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

skylark said:


> I have done and am not not getting a couple if degrees higher, around 77c. Think I need to get another stat just to confirm ...
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 What thermometer? 
note that many thermometers don't read at the tip and have a dot on them to show where they read at.


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Yeah understood. The water temp is definitely a problem. Can I just ask, if you make, let's say an americano, is the water hit enough from the machine for you? Mine comes out tepid to say the least. I know another owner who tops up from a boiled kettle. Is this expected??

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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

skylark said:


> Yeah understood. The water temp is definitely a problem. Can I just ask, if you make, let's say an americano, is the water hit enough from the machine for you? Mine comes out tepid to say the least. I know another owner who tops up from a boiled kettle. Is this expected??
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 Mine comes out at 70deg so perfect temp for Americano for me.

How old is your machine? It does sound potentially like a faulty one.

If its not new how often are you descaling?


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## skylark (Feb 27, 2018)

Just out of warranty and descaled and cleaned regularly although I've never seen the 'clean me' light yet .. think i'll move it on.

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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

skylark said:


> Just out of warranty and descaled and cleaned regularly although I've never seen the 'clean me' light yet .. think i'll move it on.
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 Ah, might be a scale issue then. I found my DTP dropped in temp as scale took hold.

However, I sent some kilrock through it (lactic acid) prior to returning it and the temp issue resolved itself.

Sages are very prone to scale problems, potentially due to the thermocoil style design, I descale mine monthly now.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

skylark said:


> Oh, and what's a 'scace'?


An incredibly expensive way to accurately measure temperature (and since the Scace 2, also pressure) in the basket. Costs as much as (or maybe more than) an espresso setup!
People have built similar things for a lot less money, which works fine for people like us. The scace is a proper product for professionals with flow control that offers more consistency shot-to-shot and unit to unit than, say, a yard built thermocouple-in-a-basket which might change depending on the basket prep, grind, weight and tamp of the shots used for the measurements. There's also a bit of schrödingers cat about measuring an actual shot...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Scace-Espresso-Thermofilter-Temperature-Pressure/dp/B00PRJYFGE

https://www.espressoparts.com/scace-2-espresso-machine-thermofilter-temperature-pressure-device

https://sprudge.com/sprudgetips-use-your-scace-correctly-13869.html

https://www.home-barista.com/reviews/scace-thermofilter-temperature-device-t453.html#p2877

___
Eat, drink and be merry


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I nominate Tom as the official forum thermoblock/jet temp control expert 

Thanks mate good learning here - i must try this on my bambino

It's the flow parameter we were all missing - incorrectly assuming we should measure temp just like a 'water store' type espresso machine ie a boiler.

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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

kennyboy993 said:


> I nominate Tom as the official forum thermoblock/jet temp control expert
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Ah you have @ajohn to thank really. It was some of his ideas that got me digging.

It seems the ability of the thermocoil and potentially even greater with the thermojet there isn't enough time to generate exchange of heat from the coil to the water flowing through it if the flow is too high.

So this is important both for testing and for extraction.

This is probably the reason why I will be getting rid of the barista pro in a couple of years as I want to upgrade to a machine I can play with the variables more.

The BP only seems to want to extract at around 18-20g, the single isn't great and I think this is due to the difficulty in getting a constant pressure over the course of extraction, as it's too restricted at the start then suddenly flows faster.

The BP (and other sages) make a really nice cup of coffee, but fall down because of the inability to control its need for restricted flow. So as the flow increases the temp most likely drops, meaning the last bit of espresso is extracted at a colder temp.

Personally I find the best cups of coffee from the sage come from pulling ristrettos and stopping the pull before this happens.


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