# Hario or Kalita (or Chemex)... Help!



## stavros

Right, I don't know what I'm setting myself up for here, it's not like I've suddenly mastered espresso and aeropress (not to mention cafetiere). I've started looking longingly at manual brewing paraphernalia, and watching videos on techniques. I'm thinking about dipping my toe into the choppy waters of pourover [cue dramatic music].

I've read a few things about the almost ubiquitous Hario V60 being somewhat a temperamental mistress. Which I find a shame as the plastic version is about six quid and the paper filters are everywhere. An abundance of video tips too.

The Kalita Wave advocates appear from Hario's shadows like Orson Welles in the Third Man to exclaim simplicity and superiority because they have flat bottoms (I'm paraphrasing!). Interesting option, and they look very nice on the matching carafes too. Availability of filter papers might be an issue.

Then there is of course distinguished old Professor Chemex, resplendent in his wood and leather cummerbund. This I know least about as it seems a bit expensive for my first pourover foray.

Finally, there is the fourth option, possibly inspired my my "mixed" Kalita Kantan results. Steer well clear. Like the old maps said, "there be dragons here".

So I turn to my good friends here, do any of you have all of these brewers? I really would like to know. Is it really possible to get beautiful coffee, to taste something I've not tasted from espresso or aeropress, with a plastic V60 for less than a tenner? Or is it all another money pit I don't need to fall down for tricky and negligible results?


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## RolandG

I use all three on a regular basis, and I strongly recommend having some form of pour-over brewer. My own experience has been that the Wave and V60 are both very reliable and pretty forgiving (although I have heard other people have struggled for reliability with the V60, I haven't found this). They produce slightly different cups - I would say the Wave produces a slightly cleaner cup, the V60 maybe a bit more body. The chemex remains probably my favorite brewer, but is the most unforgiving of the three. In terms of availability of filter papers, I they've all got UK importers and I expect they're here to stay, so I wouldn't be overly concerned.


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## MikeHag

I've used the V60-01 (single cup), V60-02 and Kantan. All great if you work at getting them right, just like any coffee brewing method. I like the look of the Wave a lot but I prefer brewing for single cups when at home so it is a little large for me. It would also take too long as a primary brew method in my cafe, but I will be offering it on our slow bar menu.

Chemex - quite gutted that I haven't yet got around to using one but have tasted a few from Artisan Roast and TBH there was very little difference between that and the French Press of the same beans that I got at the same time... which amazed me as they are meant to be at opposite ends of the 'body' scale. I wouldn't get it as a first pourover brewed.

V60 would be my choice for a first drip brewed, using the smaller 01 if you're only making single cups, and 02 for larger brews. Many coffeeshops use the 02 for single cup brewing but I find that it doesn't work very well... the hole is too large for the small dose so you end up grinding very fine to slow down the brew, and the result isn't as good as just using the 01 model.

And I strongly advise getting a pourover kettle too, one that will hold the temperature well and allow you to pour slowly and accurately. I import mine from here http://www.homeloo.com/shop/index.php?currency=GBP&cPath=48&language=en

Have fun!! I love pourover coffee.


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## RolandG

Quick note on sizes, to add to Mike's notes









In theory, the "cup" the different brewers refer to is about 125ml or a small teacup. If you primarily want that kind of volume drinks, the Hario V60-01, Kalita Wave Dripper 155 or Chemex 1-3 cup would be appropriate.

If you prefer larger mugs (as I do







) in the 200-400ml range, then the Hario V60-02, Kalita Wave Dripper 185 Or Chemex 1-3 cup would be appropriate.

If you'll want to make coffee for someone else as well (or two cups for yourself







) then the 6, 8 or 10 cup chemex or Kalita Wave Dripper & Carafe 185 are good possibilities.

p.s. Stavros, you mention "mixed" results with the Kantans - what kind of problems have you had?


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## stavros

Thanks fellas. I knew you'd help! I think Coffeehit may see some of my next payslip. I'll think I'll give the plastic V60-02 a whirl for now then, as I do like a full mug of filter coffee. If I get on with it I can always go ceramic later (got to leave some room for upgraditis eh?!).


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## MikeHag

If it helps, I dose 13.5g of grinds in the 01 and 210g of water... makes a 9 to 10 oz cup really well. Posting a video tomorrow.


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## stavros

I'm not trying to attach too much significance on my Kantan experiments. I've only tried two so far. For starters I've been using my milk jug as a pourer and I don't reckon I've nailed the grind yet. The first go took four and a half minutes to extract 200ml. Then the second one I spilt while giving a little stir and ended up with some coffee grinds in the cup. It's a double learning curve as I've only had the Vario grinder a week. Maybe I'm taking on too much too soon!


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## stavros

That would help a lot actually Mike, I'd be very interested to see what you get from the 01. Either I need smaller cups or bigger brewers, I'd like my brewed coffee to be a longer luxerious drink to make it a different enough drink to what I can get out of an aeropress (for which I normally use competition size cappa cups: 150/160ml IIRC).

And thanks for your Kantan vid too, yours is one of the very very few resources out there for that mad invention.


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## stavros

One more question for tonight, would something like this be a viable alternative to the beautiful but expensive Hario Bueno kettle?


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## MikeHag

I've certainly heard of people using oil drizzlers before







Bear in mind that link I posted to the homeloo one. Could be a better option for not that much more than the drizzler.


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## garydyke1

I have this Homeloo one http://www.homeloo.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=48&products_id=574&osCsid=84f4c5cc878bb8ae79e34d07ee28ab66

Its really well balanced in the hand , infact it just sits there, you dont have to grip it. Brilliant at heat retention too


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## jimbow

I have been using a V60-02 for the last couple of months and have been gradually learning and improving with it. This has been a process of trial and error although I must say that using a refractometer has really helped me correlate the results with what I am tasting in the cup.

Today I used a V60-01 for the first time and was really surprised by the results. Firstly, I am not sure if it is just the batch I have, but the 01 filter papers feel rougher and perhaps more porous than the 02 papers I have been using. Has anyone else found this?

Following 2 side-by-side brews I made for comparison purposes, using the same brewing parameters (15g of coffee grounds with 250ml of brew water) and grind settings, I found the V60-02 brew took much longer. I am not sure whether this is due to the filter paper or whether it is caused by the fact that the smaller V60-01 cone allowed me to get the kettle much closer to the surface of the coffee bed and so perhaps allowed me to pour more continuously. Has anyone experienced similar differences?


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## MikeHag

Hmm! I find the 02 much faster with a single dose due to the bigger hole. I tend to use 01 and 02 papers interchangeably in the 01 filter and haven't noticed any extraction difference from the papers, but will have a re-look.


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## jimbow

Thanks Mike, as I say it could just be the batch I have but would be interested to see whether yourself and others find the same.

I too was expecting the 02 to be faster because of the larger hole which was why I was surprised when I found the opposite.


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## MikeHag

Just looked at the papers and they do seem identical to me. It really could be to do with the pour. Pouring technique makes such a big difference with the V60, I find.


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## RolandG

heat can definitely be a cause of bitterness - at work, I the water I add to the wave is 92 degrees (not checked slurry temp!), although tbh I use that temp for most brewing at work


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## jimbow

Thanks Roland, I pretty much poured the water straight from the boiled kettle into the pouring kettle and then started the pre-infusion. I find, with the right height, pouring from the kettle into the pouring kettle, the temperature is correct for the V60 but it is starting to look like the Wave might like slightly lower temperature water exiting the pouring kettle. I will try tomorrow.


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## jimbow

By the way, I am starting to think the Wave could become something of a design classic, it just looks so shiny and so dinky! When you add the cupcake wrapper looking filter it is really cute.


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## fatboyslim

What are the general causes of an uneven extraction if you assume the grind has good consistency?

I'm tempted by the v60 02 at the moment as a first dripper, jimbow have you found the Kalita any easier to use or more forgiving?


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## MikeHag

jimbow said:


> By the way, I am starting to think the Wave could become something of a design classic, it just looks so shiny and so dinky! When you add the cupcake wrapper looking filter it is really cute.


I agree







Just received some and was surprised at the size difference between the 155 and 185. Small one is so wee! Great looking kit. Looking fwd to using it and expecting good things.


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## MikeHag

fatboyslim said:


> What are the general causes of an uneven extraction if you assume the grind has good consistency?
> 
> I'm tempted by the v60 02 at the moment as a first dripper, jimbow have you found the Kalita any easier to use or more forgiving?


If you're making single cups I recommend the 01. For multiple cups the 02. Just my take on it.


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## jimbow

Uneven extraction could be caused through channeling (as in espresso), grounds being left 'high and dry' up the sides of the filter, inappropriate pre-infusion, an uneven pour or varying levels of turbulence within the slurry. With fully immersed brewing techniques e.g. French Press or Aeropress then all the grounds receive the same exposure to the brew water. With pour over techniques this is not necessarily the case as the water has to percolate evenly through the coffee bed under gravity. In theory, the Wave should provide a more even extraction because of it's flat bottom but only time will tell as to whether this will hold true for me in practice.

I would second Mike's point about the V60-01 vs the V60-02; use the smallest sized filter and holder you can for the beverage volume you are brewing so that you can get the kettle spout as close to the coffee bed during pouring as you can. Extra height between the kettle and coffee bed creates more turbulence and means the water loses more heat as it is exposed to the air for longer. I started with the V60-02 and find the 01 much better for brewing a single mug ~250ml.

I have had a bit of a love-hate relationship with the V60 at times feeling truly frustrated at my inability to reliably recreate the sublime results from previous brews. Bear in mind I have only made one brew with the Wave but so far I am really impressed with its ease of use and heat retention properties.


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## jimbow

After a few more brews with the Wave today I have noticed that the Wave seems really consistent. I think this is because the column of water above the coffee bed reduces the impact of turbulence from pouring directly onto the bed as with the V60. I seem to be able to consistently hit the target extraction more easily than with the V60.

Experimenting with different water temperatures has led me to believe that something else is causing the bitter taste. I have been rinsing the paper filter prior to brewing, in the same way as I do with the V60, and today tasted the water before tossing it down the sink. I am now wondering whether it could be the paper filter that is causing the slightly harsh, bitter taste I noticed in the coffee. Watching an instructional video on YouTube I noticed that they recommended *not* to rinse the filter paper prior to brewing. Has anyone else any experience of this and opinions regarding rinsing the filter prior to brewing with the Wave?


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## MikeHag

I heard the No Wave Rinse thing too.

I'll try a brew with it tomorrow and report back.


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## jimbow

After some further experimentation I am now pretty positive that the wave paper filter is responsible for the bitter taste. I tried brewing without rinsing the filter and found that made the taste even more pronounced. I then tried rinsing the filter more thoroughly than previously and this seemed to improve things quite a lot.

Further reading of other people's experiences online suggests that this is quite common with brown paper filters in general. I also notice the guy in the previously mentioned instructional video, recommending not to rinse the filter, was using a white filter. Does anyone know where I might be able to purchase these white paper filters for the Wave?

Rinsing definitely seems to improve the taste and tomorrow I might try rinsing with even more water. One guy on the internet said he pours about a litre of water through the Wave filters just to thoroughly rinse them!!


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## MikeHag

He's not an eco-warrior then?


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## MikeHag

OK jimbow, my findings. I used the smaller (155) kalita wave for the first time today, and it was also my first use of the VST refractometer. I also took a reading with the COM-100 TDS meter to see how big the difference was between the two. It was also a new bean (Has Bean Fazenda Lagoa Yellow Icatu), as well as a new grinder (I'm finally using the Mahlkoenig Guatemala), so this is new-stuff-overload!! There was no pre-calibration, I had no idea what setting to put the grinder on, so I knew this was going to be a big gamble!

Anyway, recipe and results.

Brew water: 336g

Grinds: 20.3g

Desired beverage weight: 300g

Desired TDS: 1.35%

Desired Extraction Yield: 20%

Actual TDS: 1.87% (!)

Actual Extraction Yield 27.7% (!)

Now here's the doozey... COM-100 TDS reading: 1.11% !!

Gary... I think you can have it









As for taste, it was bloody delicious! Sweet (as expected from these beans). Buttery, as per the bag. No bitterness at all, and that's with brown filters. I pushed 300ml of hot water through as a pre-rinse. I am absolutely amazed, actually, that even with such bad brew stats it tasted so great, and can only think it's down to the combination of the kalita wave and the great quality beans.

My technique was a 45g pre-wet, 30 second wait, then a constant pout until the 336g of water was in there, then a short drawdown. Total time just under 3 mins.


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## garydyke1

MikeHag said:


> As for taste, it was bloody delicious! Sweet (as expected from these beans). Buttery, as per the bag. No bitterness at all, and that's with brown filters. I pushed 300ml of hot water through as a pre-rinse. I am absolutely amazed, actually, that even with such bad brew stats it tasted so great, and can only think it's down to the combination of the kalita wave and the great quality beans.


dont under estimate the consistant grind size from ''the beast''.


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## garydyke1

MikeHag said:


> Now here's the doozey... COM-100 TDS reading: 1.11% !!
> 
> Gary... I think you can have it


Doesnt sound like it would be of much use!

Be interesting to see what the VST makes of your tap water quality compared to the 'finger in the air' COM-100


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## jimbow

MikeHag said:


> ...
> 
> As for taste, it was bloody delicious! Sweet (as expected from these beans). Buttery, as per the bag. No bitterness at all, and that's with brown filters. I pushed 300ml of hot water through as a pre-rinse. I am absolutely amazed, actually, that even with such bad brew stats it tasted so great, and can only think it's down to the combination of the kalita wave and the great quality beans.
> 
> ...


Thanks Mike,

I carried out an experiment this morning myself where I poured 500ml quickly through the filter in 100ml batches capturing each 100ml in a separate cup. I then tasted them and found that by 300ml the paper taste had pretty much dissapeared. I think the first few brews I made used much less water to rinse the filter.

I am sorry if this is a silly question but did you calibrate the refractometer with distilled water before measuring the sample and was the distilled water at the same (room) temperature as the sample?


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## MikeHag

I did indeed. I was expecting calibration to be a ball ache but it was a 20 second job. Very impressed with how easy it is to use this thing.

And yeah, I should have considered the potential improvements from the beast







I wonder what will happen when I hit the gold cup zone. Could be coffee nirvana like I've never experienced!


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## garydyke1

mikehag said:


> i did indeed. I was expecting calibration to be a ball ache but it was a 20 second job. Very impressed with how easy it is to use this thing.
> 
> And yeah, i should have considered the potential improvements from the beast
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i wonder what will happen when i hit the gold cup zone. Could be coffee nirvana like i've never experienced!


i want a beast


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## MikeHag

You are one tho. You could roundhouse the beans into a single peak grind that would make chuck norris retire.


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## jimbow

When Chuck Norris does press-ups he is not pushing himself up, he is pushing the earth down.


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## garydyke1

So are we now saying I need Kalita wave in my life ?? Not MORE coffee stuff I can predict Laura saying.....


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## stavros

That's what I'm thinking, I haven't mastered the V60 yet!


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## garydyke1

Im pretty happy with v60 now. I would like an 01, but I can work round the 02's size.


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## stavros

I've got the 01 as I only make filter coffee for myself. I do like it and I am getting there. I think I've found the grind, and the Homeloo kettle Mike recommended has made hell of a difference. I do feel I'm missing out on some of the subtleties of the coffee, my drinks have been coming out a bit "generic". I've brought the water temp down a bit. I've got to keep experimenting, especially with the Bolivian Bolinda Illimani waiting to be opened.


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## garydyke1

stavros said:


> Bolivian Bolinda Illimani waitin.


Lovely coffee mate.

I find my Aeropress brews to be more ''generic'' (but safe) and V60 more aromatics and complex (most of the time)


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