# Using a Coffee machine in a hard water area



## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

How many of you I wonder live in hard water areas and have been using your machines without too much issue for a few years?

I'm wondering who does what in order to reduce risk in terms of limescale build up without resorting to the expense of an inline water softener or bottled water?

I have so far managed using softener bags which drop into the machine's water tank but on their own the machine still needs descaling at least every few months (used daily, 3-4 coffees per day), and I'd like to reduce the amount of caustic descaling of possible or just resign myself to using a filter machine in place of upgrading my current espresso machine.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

A filter machine will still need descaling every now & then with hard water. Hard water with filter coffee also mutes acidity & can make for a heavy, chewy cup.

I use a Zerowater jug, I mix the water from this with tap water to get the alkalinity/temporary hardness down to 40-60mg/L as CaCO3. Your water authority will have a report showing the alkalinity/KH/temporary hardness of your water supply.

You should probably change filters in the Zerowater jug very 2 months, but mine last twice that (I don't use it for drinking water).


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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

Hi Mark

I've bought a Brita filter jug using Maxtra filters so probably similar to your solution although the Zerowater claims better filtration. It does help. I will probably buy a water test strip kit to measure overall hardness CaCO3 as I'd like to see how effective the inexpensive filter solution is but independant tests do prove that the Brita can reduce from a pH of 8ish to 6.8. That's not a reliable indicator as that is with a fresh filter. It may be all that's required to space out descaling to perhaps a few times a year. We'll see.


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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

OK...I have checked water stats for my supply area:

Harness rating: Moderately hard ;

Hardness (Clark) = 11.74

Hardness (French) = 16.77

Hardness (German) = 9.39

Chloride = 48.3 mg/l

pH = 7.54 (range in the past month was 7.4 to 7.8)

Translating this to CaCO3 using Clark degrees (or English) is 14.25mg/l per degree Clark, so total CaCo3 is 167.3mg/l

It'll be interesting to see of a filter can reduce this by as much as 100mg/l


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Zero water is fundamentally different to Brita, it strips the water like RO.

Your specs only talk about the total hardness, we're more interested in tuning the temporary hardness/alkalinity. Your water, if typical will have more total, than temporary hardness, but you're stuck with the ratio you have, once you get temporary hardness/alkalinity in range.

I don't know why shifting the pH is that advantageous, both 8 & 6.8 are fine.


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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

Shifting pH isn't as important as the temporary V's permanent hardness but (and this is just generally speaking) total hardness on the high side does correlate with higher pH. Whatever the claims or results with Zerowater, Brita has worked well for me in the past. I'll be interested in seeing how much the newer versions can reduce the limescale. Zerowater filters AKAIK are far more expensive to replace due to the multistage filtration and RO used. If the Brita doesn't reduce it by enough I will try the zerowater.


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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

MWJB said:


> Zero water is fundamentally different to Brita, it strips the water like RO.
> 
> Your specs only talk about the total hardness, we're more interested in tuning the temporary hardness/alkalinity. Your water, if typical will have more total, than temporary hardness, but you're stuck with the ratio you have, once you get temporary hardness/alkalinity in range.
> 
> I don't know why shifting the pH is that advantageous, both 8 & 6.8 are fine.


 Just looking at the maxi-+ filters they do use RO as well. They also use a similar filter medium based upon activated carbon made from coconut shell and they use ion exchange "pearls" for reducing bicarbonate anions of Calcium and Magnesium. They only major differences that I can see are 1. no foam filter with the Brita (completely unnecessary anyway...I was a water treatment engineer in my past working life;-) ), and the ultra fine screen isn't mentioned for the Brita but it does mention a coarse screen. It has to have a fine screen of some sort for it to work and to separate fine activated carbon from ion exchange media. From its marketing blurb:

"The filter material of the MAXTRA+ filter cartridge contains a mixture of ion exchange resins and activated carbon that has been tested to food-grade quality. The ion exchange resin used reduces the carbonate hardness (limescale) and reduces metals, such as copper and lead, that can occur as a result of domestic installation. The activated carbon reduces substances that may impair taste, such as chlorine and chlorine compounds."

It's not a great idea to completely de-ionise tapwater by stripping all mineral content as this leaves water which is highly corrosive to even stainless steels if it is exposed at all to the atmosphere. It's more correct for coffee and tea drinkers to talk about reducing some mineral content such as calcium carbonate and magnesium bicarbonates which form temporary hardness...the thing responsible for building up scale on the inside of our machines. The amount left after boiling AFAIK is referenced in the Clark (English) hardness scale.

I think that both the Brita and the Zerowater approaches are pretty effective these days and certainly a big step on from a few decades ago. The Maxiflow filters are changed for us with about 120 or so litres of water filtration which is about 4 months use for me, even though the instructions try and get you to change them every 4 weeks! You certainly see the difference with water in the kettle (way less descaling required) and with improved flavour of tea and coffee. Both filters are highly recommended I think for anyone in a medium to hard water area to extend the life of your machines.


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

Tesco Ashbeck. I use 5 - 10l a week through my coffee machine so 3-6 GBP cost.

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## Uriel4953 (Dec 1, 2019)

I think the point of the Zero water over something like the brita is you know the water has no hardness and can therefore mix it with your tap water or bottled water to get the target 40-60 hardness. With the brita it's an unknown. Probably depends on stuff like your machine and your coffee also. If i Have a couple a thousand pounds plus of grinder/Expresso machine with an expensive single origin coffee, am i really going to worry about bottled water costs to reduce maintenance and potentially get a better cup out at the end, no. If I'm running my £30 moka pot with some beans i got from the local super market am i going to buy bottled, probably not unless my tap water is terrible. Don't really kno why i'm chiming in though as my Tap water is awesome.

Also be careful with running filters longer than intended as DI resin can start chucking stuff back out into water once it has gone past it's prime and you can get stuff like bacteria and mold in old filters.


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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

Yes, aware of all that ?. I've not bothered to date, but now I've invested in my first decent machine I'll simply use a water test kit to check that the filtered water is in the ball-park for between 60 -ish mg/l CaC03. I'm not going to get too anal about things as I haven't spend £1000's nor have I spend loads on coffee beans. The Brita works fine but what I don;' yet know is how the filter efficiency drops off with volume processed which is what I'll be logging for reference.


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## Tait (Sep 9, 2017)

Bica60s said:


> how the filter efficiency drops off with volume processed which is what I'll be logging for reference


 Keep us posted on this!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Bica60s said:


> The Brita works fine but what I don;' yet know is how the filter efficiency drops off with volume processed which is what I'll be logging for reference.


 Are you saying that the Brita Maxtra drops the alkalinity of your water to less than 60mg/L as CaCO3?


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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

MWJB said:


> Are you saying that the Brita Maxtra drops the alkalinity of your water to less than 60mg/L as CaCO3?


 I won't know until the water test kit arrives tbh but in all the time I've been using it, it does most certainly noticeably reduce limescale build up. Whether it is as effective as the one you use, I don't know.


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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

Tait said:


> Keep us posted on this!


 Will do ?


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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

OK

So I tested the water straight from the tap and got a total harness figure of 140 to 160 judging by the reaction on the test strip (see below).

The middle strip is JUST filtered through the Brita filter and equates roughly to between 60 and 80 total hardness

The left hand side is using the brita filter AND adding a water softening pouch from delohghi into the water reservoir (lasts 3 months) and brings it down fractionally perhaps to 50

These figures equate to mg/litre TOTAL hardness

The equivalent German scale is about 9 for the tap water, 4 for the Brita filtered water and about 3 for the filtered water then having a pouch of Delonghi water softening capsules added (not that much different to the Brita filter so my best guess is that the capsules are something similar to the ones in the Brita filter RO section).

The photo is very poor and the lighting wasn't good enough really to show the comparison as seen by the naked eye:


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## ntipp319 (Dec 19, 2019)

Every machine will need descaling every so often that is a problem that comes with coffee machines. This is irrelevant if its hard or soft. The way you're using softner bags is a very good idea. I may start using them if the issue happens more often.


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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

Agreed, yes. I gauge descaling frequency by the condition of our kettle which is used about the same number of times per day. When I see that has started to build up a little, I descale the coffee machine.

I tested the water yesterday after using the Brita filter for a week and about 14 or 15 litres of water filtered in total. On its own, without the water softening bags used in the coffee machine reservoir, the total hardness was about 60ppm, so no drop off at all and arguably no need at all for the water softening bags. The Brita seems to do a great job on its own. Tap water tested in at roughly 140 ppm. On that performane alone I won't be switching to the Total water filter. No need. A lot depends on how long the filters maintain performance for so I'll continue testing weekly until total hardness creeps up to perhaps a 100 or so or where scaling starts to occur, whichever is the soonest.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Man I'd kill for tap water of 140. Ours is 280 and 180 after double filtering with a brita


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

TomHughes said:


> Man I'd kill for tap water of 140. Ours is 280 and 180 after double filtering with a brita


 280 - that's not hard. ?

412.5 is hard.

https://www.kinetico.co.uk/hard-and-soft-water-explained/hard-and-soft-water-uk

and it would not surprise me if the actual value may be higher.

I have to descale my toothbrush once a week.

Ashbeck with a twist of Buxton for the coffee machine. ?


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

ntipp319 said:


> Every machine will need descaling every so often that is a problem that comes with coffee machines. This is irrelevant if its hard or soft. The way you're using softner bags is a very good idea. I may start using them if the issue happens more often.


 With a hardness in the low 30s and having had kettles for years without even a fragment of scale....when would you suggest I descale? ?


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

catpuccino said:


> With a hardness in the low 30s and having had kettles for years without even a fragment of scale....when would you suggest I descale? ?


 I can sell you some water if you want to get scaly or have a Calcium deficiency you'd like to cure. ?


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Agentb said:


> 280 - that's not hard. ?
> 
> 412.5 is hard.
> 
> ...


 Where are you? My parents is about 400, Bristol way. They had to have a water softener put in!


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

TomHughes said:


> Where are you? My parents is about 400, Bristol way. They had to have a water softener put in!


 Not far from Thaxted in Essex.


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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

TomHughes said:


> Where are you? My parents is about 400, Bristol way. They had to have a water softener put in!


 Bristol area is partially fed from river water but about half comes from limestone rich aquifers stored in man made lakes (like Chew) and about half coming from the Severn, mostly abstracted from their Purton water treatment plant. The latter isn't especially hard, the former is! We live not that far from Purton but our water is blended from various spring sources and has a total hardness varying between 140 and 180 depending on the main sources. I'm surprised tbh that it isn't harder being in a Limestone area but there we go...can't complain!


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## ThePeginator (Dec 17, 2019)

TomHughes said:


> Where are you? My parents is about 400, Bristol way. They had to have a water softener put in!


We're in a similar situation in Norfolk, in the 400s I believe.

With water that hard, is it basically a non-started in terms of filtration / treatment? I'm guessing even if we did filter, we'd have to change them SO often we'd spend an arm and a leg in filters... which is plastic waste just like bottles but less easy to recycle..

Bottled water (unfortunately) is probably the most practical solution?

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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

RO machines are an option for uber hard water areas and the membranes last years provided you keep them wet/under pressure. You then need to remineralise however and I wouldn't recommend DI resin at all - you don't want 0 tds water.

Carbon and sediment filters are cheap (6 month replacement recommended) and I have mine set up using 2 membrane units to minimise waste water (efflux of one feeds the second) in Bristol this gives me about 33 TDS but I'm not sure how that equates to hardness.

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## ThePeginator (Dec 17, 2019)

Aren't RO machines pretty expensive and bulky though? Possibly something to consider if/when I've got a 4 figure machine but probably not worth it for my 2nd hand Classic!

https://www.happydonkey.co.uk/domfilter-in-tank-water-filter.html

These would be ideal IF they work well enough for water that's as hard as ours, possibly in combination with a softening tablet and/or a filter jug (which we do already day own but everything I've read suggests they're next to useless for espresso machines if your water is 400+ TDS - that may or may not be true). It's all voodoo to me this water business, unfortunately I think I'll be sticking to bottled water until I can nail down a solution that I'm sure is going to work and won't cost the earth.

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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

There are in-line water softeners which can be set up to achieve a certain %TDS but your concern about cost is valid. Installed costs vary but you'll be probably looking close to £2K plus for some of these. Whether it's worth it depends largely on whether you have any reliability issues with things like central heating etc. It could be worth it in the longer term to prevent furring up of heating elements and central heating pipework, let alone coffee machines! I think it's something I'd definitely consider if I lived in a truely hard water area. I feel a bit spoiled now here with TDS values of less than a third of those with genuine concerns! Shorter term, bottled water may well be the least expensive option if daily coffee consumption is just a few cups.


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## ThePeginator (Dec 17, 2019)

Luckily we don't have central heating, all electric.

That said, our hot water system is gravity fed from a tank of the loft, that may well have been there since the place was built in the 70s and the less said about the state of it the better, scale city... obviously that's not drinking water though.

Long term we have planned to put a softener on the main incoming feed to the house, but not sure when we'll get round to that!

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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

ThePeginator said:


> Aren't RO machines pretty expensive and bulky though? Possibly something to consider if/when I've got a 4 figure machine but probably not worth it for my 2nd hand Classic!
> 
> https://www.happydonkey.co.uk/domfilter-in-tank-water-filter.html
> 
> ...


Ah besides coffee I also keep Marine fish so I have one for that. A 3 stage compact system is less than 50 notes:

https://www.ro-man.com/?product=3-stage-basic-reverse-osmosis-system-50-gallon-per-day

and is pretty compact too.

I use about 10-15l of Ashbeck a week (I don't use RO for the coffee machine aa I'm too lazy to work out how much tap to RO I need to use to get the "ideal" parameter for the coffee) but producing 25l plus a week for the aquarium hasn't increased my water bill too much.

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## ThePeginator (Dec 17, 2019)

brokentechie said:


> Ah besides coffee I also keep Marine fish so I have one for that. A 3 stage compact system is less than 50 notes:
> 
> https://www.ro-man.com/?product=3-stage-basic-reverse-osmosis-system-50-gallon-per-day
> 
> ...


That's not nearly as big/expensive as I was thinking - maybe what I looked at was a whole abode sized RO unit or similar. Food for thought.

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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

You can get 10l food safe water butts too. If you have the test kits you can work out how much tap to add to remineralise the RO you produce too - probably a small cup or couple of egg cups to each batch of RO on a weekly run.

Not as easy as buying Ashbeck etc. but probably more environmentally friendly too and overall costs vs Brita filters probably cheaper.

The only drawback is making sure you have enough mains pressure to keep up efficiency - if not you need to factor in an RO booster pump at approx. £40

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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

What would people view as the cut off for moving from tap/filtered to bottle? 
we have tap at 280, triple filtered to 160.

I think the coffee tastes best at 100-150 personally as I find less than 100 too bright.

Anyone aiming for a particular TDS?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

TomHughes said:


> What would people view as the cut off for moving from tap/filtered to bottle?
> we have tap at 280, triple filtered to 160.
> 
> I think the coffee tastes best at 100-150 personally as I find less than 100 too bright.
> ...


 It's not the TDS that's the decider, it's bicarbonate (should be 50-75mg/L) or temporary hardness/alkalinity as CaCO3 (should be 40-60mg/L).

Only a proportion of your TDS contributes to scaling and the whole number doesn't differentiate between Ca, Mg, (these make up your total hardness) and everything else.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

MWJB said:


> It's not the TDS that's the decider, it's bicarbonate (should be 50-75mg/L) or temporary hardness/alkalinity as CaCO3 (should be 40-60mg/L).
> 
> Only a proportion of your TDS contributes to scaling and the whole number doesn't differentiate between Ca, Mg, (these make up your total hardness) and everything else.


 I don't know the bicarbonate as I can't find it on Yorkshire water. Total hardness is reported as 104. TDS reads 270. 
I filter the water but what I don't want to do is just take out calcium and magnesium by filtering and loose the creamy and sweet notes these apparently give.

i did read an article by a scientist who used completely distilled water and added back in specific amounts of mg, ca and bicarbonate to arrive at what he believed was the perfect water.

Im very tempted to do this!!


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

TomHughes said:


> I don't know the bicarbonate as I can't find it on Yorkshire water. Total hardness is reported as 104. TDS reads 270.
> I filter the water but what I don't want to do is just take out calcium and magnesium by filtering and loose the creamy and sweet notes these apparently give.
> 
> i did read an article by a scientist who used completely distilled water and added back in specific amounts of mg, ca and bicarbonate to arrive at what he believed was the perfect water.
> Im very tempted to do this!!


If you want to do that then RO and DI (deionising resin) is the way to go - distilled water is quite expensive by comparison.

CaCO3 is readily available as is MgCO3 in food/pharma grade!

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You can buy a KH drop kit to establish alkalinity, often water authorities provide a more in depth analysis, sometimes by postcode, maybe ask for one?

It's not known how much Ca & Mg affect sweetness, all ground water in the desired range (or harder) has Ca at least, most has both.

The only perfect water identified by science I know of was identified nearly 20ys ago & then reinforced by 3 further studies.

Making your own water is a great idea, go ahead, lots of threads here & elsewhere.


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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

MWJB said:


> It's not the TDS that's the decider, it's bicarbonate (should be 50-75mg/L) or temporary hardness/alkalinity as CaCO3 (should be 40-60mg/L).
> 
> Only a proportion of your TDS contributes to scaling and the whole number doesn't differentiate between Ca, Mg, (these make up your total hardness) and everything else.


 That's all indeed very true but it's fairly straightforward to lower temporary hardness if living in a moderately hard water area. TDS/temporary CaCO3 is reduced low enough by just filtering if using simple checks like your kettle to determine if you've managed to get it down low enough where it shouldn't pose a significant risk to the internals of a coffee machine, with periodic descaling say twice annually. Blending water for taste is a separate topic really, and quite an advanced science as you rightly point out. It involves/demands a more scientific approach. All I can say is that by reducing total TDS, I have also reduced temporary hardness to the point that no scaling is apparent even after quite a significant time period of using the Brita filter. Prior to this, the build up of scale within the kettle was always apparent within just a few days from de-scaling and cleaning. Since using the Brita, it's still as bright and shiny now as it was when I first started using the filter. I'm not sure that chasing water chemistry through varying dissolved minerals is quite worth the hassle when a decent taste seems possible with just lowering TDS/bicarbonates sufficiently. A lot depends on water area though.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Bica60s said:


> That's all indeed very true but it's fairly straightforward to lower temporary hardness if living in a moderately hard water area. TDS/temporary CaCO3 is reduced low enough by just filtering if using simple checks like your kettle to determine if you've managed to get it down low enough where it shouldn't pose a significant risk to the internals of a coffee machine, with periodic descaling say twice annually. Blending water for taste is a separate topic really, and quite an advanced science as you rightly point out. It involves/demands a more scientific approach. All I can say is that by reducing total TDS, I have also reduced temporary hardness to the point that no scaling is apparent even after quite a significant time period of using the Brita filter. Prior to this, the build up of scale within the kettle was always apparent within just a few days from de-scaling and cleaning. Since using the Brita, it's still as bright and shiny now as it was when I first started using the filter. I'm not sure that chasing water chemistry through varying dissolved minerals is quite worth the hassle when a decent taste seems possible with just lowering TDS/bicarbonates sufficiently. A lot depends on water area though.


 The kettle is a poor indicator. A brew boiler might be 105c for 95c at the group and a service boiler might be 125-130c. You'll see different scale than you get in a kettle; none vs some.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Bica60s said:


> Blending water for taste is a separate topic really, and quite an advanced science as you rightly point out.


 There is almost no science on blending water for taste. It is known that high bicarbonate/alkalinity flattens perceived acidity, beyond that, what tastes good is too open ended to make recommendations.

All boiler water recommendations fitting the area I have quoted, all are based on propensity to scale.

I don't know why you would measure TDS, measure total hardness, then just look at a kettle to guess at alkalinity (the most critical factor)?


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

MWJB said:


> There is almost no science on blending water for taste. It is known that high bicarbonate/alkalinity flattens perceived acidity, beyond that, what tastes good is too open ended to make recommendations.
> All boiler water recommendations fitting the area I have quoted, all are based on propensity to scale.
> I don't know why you would measure TDS, measure total hardness, then just look at a kettle to guess at alkalinity (the most critical factor)?


TDS is used to measure efficiency of RO water filters, as hardness is a dissolved solid (CaCO3 and MgCO3) that precipitates out when heated.

Water with zero TDS is no good for coffee, however if all you are concerned about is scale then if you use water with a TDS under a certain level you will unlikely suffer - the exact figure escapes me now but I think it's around 100mg/l or ppm (ppm is equivalent to mg/l) dry residue which is the sum total of all dissolved compounds, hence TDS is useful in this regard.

Alkalinity is different but related in so far as it is the ability of a solution to resist changes to PH primarily due to equivalent carbonate or bicarbonate ions contained therein - it is also known as "temporary hardness" as it is these buffers that precipitate out - mostly calcium and magnesium, whereas permanent hardness is due to sulfates and chloride ions, again usually Ca or Mg. These generally do not precipitate to scale by boiling, but will be removed along with Ca/Mg CO3 by RO filters.

Blending water for taste is a science however this is subjective as you suggest, and this text is pretty good:

http://users.rcn.com/erics/Water%20Quality/Water%20FAQ.pdf

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

brokentechie said:


> TDS is used to measure efficiency of RO water filters, as hardness is a dissolved solid (CaCO3 and MgCO3) that precipitates out when heated.
> 
> Water with zero TDS is no good for coffee, however if all you are concerned about is scale then if you use water with a TDS under a certain level you will unlikely suffer - the exact figure escapes me now but I think it's around 100mg/l or ppm (ppm is equivalent to mg/l) dry residue which is the sum total of all dissolved compounds, hence TDS is useful in this regard.
> 
> ...


 Jim Shulman's 17 year old FAQ deals in GH:KH as CaCO3 not ppm/mg/l TDS as dry residue. It has lately been reinforced by Water for Coffee book & an SCA water quality paper. All overlap with the previous SCAA water quality guide. Long story short is get your bicarbonate/KH/Alkalinity in range to control scaling.

Whilst a little more total hardness than alkalinity is typical there pretty well is no 'normal', ground water can be anywhere from 0.5:1 to 2.5:1 GH:KH, making total dry residue a very poor guide.

Too low values in total & temporary hardness can lead to corrosive water.

There are dozens of water for boilers quality threads already on the forum, this stuff has been covered a hundred times. There hasn't been any new information essentially since the Schulman FAQ, though there has been more info in custom making water formulations.


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

MWJB said:


> Jim Shulman's 17 year old FAQ deals in GH:KH as CaCO3 not ppm/mg/l TDS as dry residue. It has lately been reinforced by Water for Coffee book & an SCA water quality paper. All overlap with the previous SCAA water quality guide. Long story short is get your bicarbonate/KH/Alkalinity in range to control scaling.
> Whilst a little more total hardness than alkalinity is typical there pretty well is no 'normal', ground water can be anywhere from 0.5:1 to 2.5:1 GH:KH, making total dry residue a very poor guide.
> Too low values in total & temporary hardness can lead to corrosive water.
> There are dozens of water for boilers quality threads already on the forum, this stuff has been covered a hundred times. There hasn't been any new information essentially since the Schulman FAQ, though there has been more info in custom making water formulations.


"They do not measure total dissolved solids (this requires a conductivity test). But, since calcium, magnesium, and carbonates form the preponderance of dissolved solids in most natural drinking water, and since total dissolved solids plays only a small role in the calculations, the higher of the hardness or alkalinity measures (in CaCO3 equivalent units) can serve as the total dissolved solids measure with only a minimal loss of accuracy (The LI will come out about 0.1 to 0.2 too high for water with lots of other minerals)."

Ergo the reverse is also true...

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

brokentechie said:


> "They do not measure total dissolved solids (this requires a conductivity test). But, since calcium, magnesium, and carbonates form the preponderance of dissolved solids in most natural drinking water, and since total dissolved solids plays only a small role in the calculations, the higher of the hardness or alkalinity measures (in CaCO3 equivalent units) can serve as the total dissolved solids measure with only a minimal loss of accuracy (The LI will come out about 0.1 to 0.2 too high for water with lots of other minerals)."
> 
> Ergo the reverse is also true...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


 So stop talking in broad, abstract strokes and give us the number/range.


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

MWJB said:


> So stop talking in broad, abstract strokes and give us the number/range.


Look I'm not arguing with you but simply if you want to keep scale down then a TDS of less than 100ppm will do it.

Taste is another bag altogether. How many people on this forum do you think have a palate that can distinguish 100ppm hardness with 50ppm alkalinity?

I would wager one or two. The OP question was about scale. Ashbeck is regarded as one of the best waters for coffee machines and is 82 mg/l (ppm) TDS.

If you want to attain zen levels of CaCO3 and MgCO3 (ergo hardness and alkalinity) then you need to start with 0 TDS water (commonly distilled or RO/DI) and remineralise using a mix of CaCO3, MgCO3 and other relevant bicarbonate additives.

If you want to keep scale down ANY drinking water with a TDS of less than 100ppm will suffice as long as you start with potable water.

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

brokentechie said:


> Look I'm not arguing with you but simply if you want to keep scale down then a TDS of less than 100ppm will do it.
> 
> Taste is another bag altogether. How many people on this forum do you think have a palate that can distinguish 100ppm hardness with 50ppm alkalinity?
> 
> ...


 There are examples of UK bottled water less than 100ppm that are corrosive, that's why this this method falls down.

2 widely available, good waters for boilers (Volvic & Waitrose Lockhills) are well over 100ppm.

I never made any recommendation regarding taste, I wouldn't it's pointless without data. If your water for you boiler fits the Shulman, SCAA, Water for Coffee, Perger, SCA zone, your prep & grind will be the biggest factor in taste preference (for a given coffee). If you're making brewed coffee without a boiler, you can use all sorts of water outside the recommended zone.

You don't need to start with pure water & rebuild. You can buy bottled water, you can also mix tap with RO to remineralise. A few minutes with a KH drop kit is all you need. No zen levels of anything (8ppm resolution isn't exactly zen level), no complicated math.

Boiler water is one of the simplest & easiest to fix aspects of coffee


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

MWJB said:


> There are examples of UK bottled water less than 100ppm that are corrosive, that's why this this method falls down.


Such as? Corrosive to what? Brass? Copper? Aluminium? Steel?

PH level affects corrosion. Tap water filtered through an RO machine is very unlikely to ever be less than 6.5 or greater than 8.2 PH which is the zones commonly associated with corrosion. Similarly any medium at PH 7 (neutral) can still cause corrosion where dissimilar metals join particularly where there is a large enough amount of dissolved salts causing the solution to become an electrolyte.

Water chemistry is complicated depending on the given application. Taste of coffee (as you rightly say) is subjective however as a rule of thumb I think 100ppm TDS, even possibly as high as 150ppm TDS *provided the "raw" water is potable* before processing will yield a water perfectly adequate for most people's palate whilst also minimizing damage to their machine.

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

brokentechie said:


> Such as? Corrosive to what? Brass? Copper? Aluminium? Steel?
> 
> PH level affects corrosion. Tap water filtered through an RO machine is very unlikely to ever be less than 6.5 or greater than 8.2 PH which is the zones commonly associated with corrosion. Similarly any medium at PH 7 (neutral) can still cause corrosion where dissimilar metals join particularly where there is a large enough amount of dissolved salts causing the solution to become an electrolyte.
> 
> ...


 Decantae, Ashbeck/Aqua Pura/AsdaEden falls, Deeside/Royal Deeside. If you need to establish what the boiler is made of before recommending, you are just making the whole process more & unnecessarily complicated. We'll maybe assume the machine manufacturer has made machines before & they are known to work, or do we need to ask them about dissimilar metals in the machine too (but still not bother ascertaining KH)?

I don't know why you keep raising the subject of water TDS vs taste of coffee.

So now your 100ppm limit is 150ppm? You could still have a KH of 100mg/l

This rule of thumb isn't simplifying anything.


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

MWJB said:


> Decantae, Ashbeck/Aqua Pura/AsdaEden falls, Deeside/Royal Deeside. If you need to establish what the boiler is made of before recommending, you are just making the whole process more & unnecessarily complicated. We'll maybe assume the machine manufacturer has made machines before & they are known to work, or do we need to ask them about dissimilar metals in the machine too (but still not bother ascertaining KH)?
> I don't know why you keep raising the subject of water TDS vs taste of coffee.
> So now your 100ppm limit is 150ppm? You could still have a KH of 100mg/l
> This rule of thumb isn't simplifying anything.


Because copper and brass are more resistant to corrosion than aluminium until such time as the aluminium oxidises which then presents a much hardier and corrosion resistant material. Stainless steel is the best for corrosion resistance (depending on grade) but poor in terms of thermal stability compared to copper/brass, mild steel is completely unsuitable for boilers.

So I'll ask again. Which metals because Ashbeck at PH 6.2 might be slightly corrosive but to all but the most reactive metals however if it was high in hardness the scale would be more damaging than the slightly acidic nature of the water.

Indeed the citric acid so oft used for descaling a machine will be more damaging in 20 mins than years of 6.2PH Ashbeck which effectively will avoid any scale.

Re the 100TDS or 150TDS I did state quite categorically earlier that I forget which figure it is but under a certain level is generally regarded as not causing scale.

Stop arguing about something which you do not understand or do not want to.

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I understand just fine. What we need on the forum is practical, useable advice.


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

MWJB said:


> I understand just fine. What we need on the forum is practical, useable advice.


Well we'll have to agree to disagree on your understanding. Good day to you

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

brokentechie said:


> Well we'll have to agree to disagree on your understanding. Good day to you
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Commonly in debate, underhanded comments like that are attributed to the loser. Not really surprising since you were arguing with someone who actually knows about water composition!


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

ashcroc said:


> Commonly in debate, underhanded comments like that are attributed to the loser. Not really surprising since you were arguing with someone who actually knows about water composition!


No not at all, it was not an underhand comment, nor meant as such. He may understand water but does he understand corrosion, which material is affected and how, to my mind not.

Simply put 150 or 100 TDS or less (however derived as an end product) will not scale a boiler system *provided* the raw water is potable.

I know about metallurgy and corrosion, and how one material affects another. I also understand water chemistry and KH/alkalinity and temp or perm hardness.

Notice how you claim I'm "losing" however your beau appears not to answer any of my questions on bottled water and appears to be regurgitating work cited by others without the basic understanding of how Ashbeck et al that he claims are corrosive are and to which materials.

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## ThePeginator (Dec 17, 2019)

MWJB said:


> I understand just fine. What we need on the forum is practical, useable advice.


Speaking of which...

What is the most practical / cost effective way to get water that will 1. Not eat / clog my machine and 2. Make good coffee, without using bottled water? I live in Norfolk where our water is in the 400+ range!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

brokentechie said:


> No not at all, it was not an underhand comment, nor meant as such. He may understand water but does he understand corrosion, which material is affected and how, to my mind not.
> 
> Simply put 150 or 100 TDS or less (however derived as an end product) will not scale a boiler system *provided* the raw water is potable.
> 
> ...


What absolute twaddle. You talk about total dissolved solids like all solids behave the same way when dissolved. I'm sorry to inform you they don't which makes your arguement fundimentally flawed!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

What is your reason for excluding bottled water?

1. Mix your water with Di/RO water to aim for a KH/alkalinity of around 50mg/l as CaCO3. Establish this using a KH/alkalinity drop kit from Amazon, or an aquarium supplies shop.

A zerowater jug will strip almost everything out of your water, depending on how much you use, this could be more expensive than bottled water like Waitrose Lockhills. cartridges are ~£15 a pop, you might go through 4-5 a year at a litre a day?

You might also consider a plumbed filtration, or RO solution, I don't have any experience with these.

2. Buy good coffee, find the right grind setting and/or brew ratio for your drink.


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

ashcroc said:


> What absolute twaddle. You talk about total dissolved solids like all solids behave the same way when dissolved. I'm sorry to inform you they don't which makes your arguement fundimentally flawed!


Nope it's not. We're talking potable water here not RODI with God knows what dissolved in it or of questionable source. Another keyboard warrior with no clue. What are YOUR qualifications and credentials to back up your claims?

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

brokentechie said:


> Notice how you claim I'm "losing" however your beau appears not to answer any of my questions on bottled water and appears to be regurgitating work cited by others without the basic understanding of how Ashbeck et al that he claims are corrosive are and to which materials.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


 So tell us to which materials Ashbeck is/isn't corrosive?

You also cited Shulman. Are you Jim Schulman?


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## ThePeginator (Dec 17, 2019)

I ask about not using bottled water because it's what I use currently but would like to avoid due to cost and plastic waste. Although I realise cost is negligible in the scheme of things compared to beans.

Might start by buying a test kit and at least see 1. What our tap water is for definite and 2. How much our Brita jug is doing already.. and then go from there.

Cheers.

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

MWJB said:


> What is your reason for excluding bottled water?
> 1. Mix your water with Di/RO water to aim for a KH/alkalinity of around 50mg/l as CaCO3. Establish this using a KH/alkalinity drop kit from Amazon, or an aquarium supplies shop.
> A zerowater jug will strip almost everything out of your water, depending on how much you use, this could be more expensive than bottled water like Waitrose Lockhills. cartridges are ~£15 a pop, you might go through 4-5 a year at a litre a day?
> You might also consider a plumbed filtration, or RO solution, I don't have any experience with these.
> 2. Buy good coffee, find the right grind setting and/or brew ratio for your drink.


Filter cartridges are also alot harder to recycle than plastic bottles. BWT even recommend emptying the contents of theirs into the food waste & recycling the case with the bottles.


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## ThePeginator (Dec 17, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> Filter cartridges are also alot harder to recycle than plastic bottles. BWT even recommend emptying the contents of theirs into the food waste & recycling the case with the bottles.


This is true, the ideal solution would be something zero waste / reusable. Which I guess is a more permanent RO / softening solution.

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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

MWJB said:


> So tell us to which materials Ashbeck is/isn't corrosive?
> You also cited Shulman. Are you Jim Schulman?


I already did. Brass or copper not so much, aluminium quite a lot until it forms the oxide layer (which is essentially what is done to by anodising) which is pretty much impervious to all but mechanical removal and or chemical means, stainless will pretty much outlast the machine at a PH of 6.2 and mild steel will fair the worst.

Why do you think boilers are made of brass or copper or aluminium?

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

brokentechie said:


> Nope it's not. We're talking potable water here not RODI with God knows what dissolved in it or of questionable source. Another keyboard warrior with no clue. What are YOUR qualifications and credentials to back up your claims?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Calcium carbonate will react differently when water is boiled to how Sodium bicarbonate does yet both can be calculated as total dissolved solids depending on the composition of the water. I don't know where you're based but in the UK all tap water has been treated to be pottable (unless you're fortunate to have your own well or spring on your property you've decided to plumb in) but will come from a multitude of different sources depending on your location. The actual composition across the country will vary widely & just looking at TDS isn't remotely accurate enough.
Keep digging little man. You're just showing up your basic miscomprehension!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

brokentechie said:


> Why do you think boilers are made of brass or copper or aluminium?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


 Because they are.


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

I've a new appreciation for the hard water conversations after having spent a few days trying to get a simple aeropress brew correct with the very hard water at my parent's place in Norfolk. Edinburgh water is a beautiful safety net, it's not perfect (I know it's "too soft', forgive the generalisation) but it's boiler safe and I've never personally felt it's a bottleneck for my own manual brews. There's always a difference between a pourover from a local specialty shop where I know they use RO and remineralise vs. my own with the same beans, but it's a very comfortable trade off for not having to worry about water at all. But being here has given me a renewed motivation to explore water a little more at home even if just a few side by sides with ashbeck.

Also this thread needs more Christmas spirit ??


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

MWJB said:


> Because they are.


Because they have great heat retention properties and are resistant to corrosion.

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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

ashcroc said:


> Calcium carbonate will react differently when water is boiled to how Sodium bicarbonate does yet both can be calculated as total dissolved solids depending on the composition of the water. I don't know where you're based but in the UK all tap water has been treated to be pottable (unless you're fortunate to have your own well or spring on your property you've decided to plumb in) but will come from a multitude of different sources depending on your location. The actual composition across the country will vary widely & just looking at TDS isn't remotely accurate enough.
> Keep digging little man. You're just showing up your basic miscomprehension!


Yes as I've already stated several times over Calcium salts form the temporary hardness and precipitates out on boiling and sodium is the permanent part which fo not.

The simple answer is you will not get water of 100 or 150 TDS that consists of 150 TDS of Ca or Mg carbonate, purely because there has to be a correlation between Ca Mg and Na in solution.

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

ThePeginator said:


> Speaking of which...
> 
> What is the most practical / cost effective way to get water that will 1. Not eat / clog my machine and 2. Make good coffee, without using bottled water? I live in Norfolk where our water is in the 400+ range!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I wouldn't worry too much about the eating aspect. Clogging and scale yes. There are several options on scale. The ion ecchange / salt regeneration is probably the most cost effective method of softening really hard water. RO units are also available. Flow rates can be very slow but the slow flow can be into some form off tank and the machine topped up from that.

@DavecUK can tell you what to do with RO water. Off hand I don't have details. These days he uses a dispenser that use RO and has plenty of info on how long the filters etc last.

In the area of coffee some supplier recommend blending what comes out of the ion exchange salt regenerated units with raw tap water. Others don't which may be down to the efficiency of the softening / internal arrangements.

You can get some idea about what is available from here - not convince they are a water board, more a clever name

https://www.eastmidlandswater.com/

It's more complicated though. There are claims that some bottled water does not leave any scale at all.  I await photo's from @MildredM and she should be able to fill you in on this aspect and what she and others use. It's probably the cheapest option of the lot. It could be more of a case of needing to descale a lot less often. Others methods can be applied to the whole house.

I get 45ppm straight out of the tap. I use a Sage Dual boiler and that can be given a hardness figure and the machine comes up with a descale message based on this and water throughput. I've found it isn't frequent enough on the steam boiler. On the other hand it also sets a 20min descale period. I've found that this doesn't always remove all of the scale. This may be why the descale messages were not frequent enough. In a nut shell it's probably best to descale more often than is actually theoretically needed.

John

-


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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

MWJB said:


> *There is almost no science on blending water for taste.* It is known that high bicarbonate/alkalinity flattens perceived acidity, beyond that, what tastes good is too open ended to make recommendations.
> 
> All boiler water recommendations fitting the area I have quoted, all are based on propensity to scale.
> 
> I don't know why you would measure TDS, measure total hardness, then just look at a kettle to guess at alkalinity (the most critical factor)?


 Simply not true I'm afraid. There are some very experienced and highly qualified individuals working within water supply companies who would beg to differ with you there. Ultimately, taste is very subjective to each person but that is not to say there isn't any science behind it...if you spoke to those within our water supply companies, they would be only too pleased to confirm as much. I use TDS because in the absence of any other data, it is the most basic, and for many, useful enough to keep things simple., unless you are saying that it is of no value at all? Most of the guidelines with a lot of filter suppliers advise bands based upon TDS, although temporary hardness is a far more useful indicator. Kettle scale is an indicator of a comparison between unfiltered and filtered for atmospheric pressure and temperatures and whilst it is not a refined indicator, again, it is better than nothing to go by. Point is, whilst none of these things are as reliable as you suggest, for most people they provide at least a crude indicator in the absence of other more specific data.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Bica60s said:


> Simply not true I'm afraid. There are some very experienced and highly qualified individuals working within water supply companies who would beg to differ with you there. Ultimately, taste is very subjective to each person but that is not to say there isn't any science behind it...if you spoke to those within our water supply companies, they would be only too pleased to confirm as much. I use TDS because in the absence of any other data, it is the most basic, and for many, useful enough to keep things simple., unless you are saying that it is of no value at all? Most of the guidelines with a lot of filter suppliers advise bands based upon TDS, although temporary hardness is a_ far_ more useful indicator. Kettle scale is an indicator of a comparison between unfiltered and filtered for atmospheric pressure and temperatures and whilst it is not a refined indicator, again, it is better than nothing to go by. Point is, whilst none of these things are as reliable as you suggest, for most people they provide at least a crude indicator in the absence of other more specific data.


When Young's Brewery merged with Wells & moved production to Bedford, they took care to analyse the well water from the Wandsworth brewery & tried to mix it at the new site. Funnily enough, it didn't work & they ended up changing the recipe for their beer instead.


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

ashcroc said:


> When Young's Brewery merged with Wells & moved production to Bedford, they took care to analyse the well water from the Wandsworth brewery & tried to mix it at the new site. Funnily enough, it didn't work & they ended up changing the recipe for their beer instead.


So we go from water for no scale to water for making beer.

Constant comparisons of apples to oranges

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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

MWJB said:


> What is your reason for excluding bottled water?
> 1. Mix your water with Di/RO water to aim for a KH/alkalinity of around 50mg/l as CaCO3. Establish this using a KH/alkalinity drop kit from Amazon, or an aquarium supplies shop.
> A zerowater jug will strip almost everything out of your water, depending on how much you use, this could be more expensive than bottled water like Waitrose Lockhills. cartridges are ~£15 a pop, you might go through 4-5 a year at a litre a day?
> You might also consider a plumbed filtration, or RO solution, I don't have any experience with these.
> 2. Buy good coffee, find the right grind setting and/or brew ratio for your drink.


So you sit there shouting me down and your first answer/solution is EXACTLY the same as I suggest way back in the thread...

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Bica60s said:


> Simply not true I'm afraid. There are some very experienced and highly qualified individuals working within water supply companies who would beg to differ with you there. Ultimately, taste is very subjective to each person but that is not to say there isn't any science behind it...if you spoke to those within our water supply companies, they would be only too pleased to confirm as much. I use TDS because in the absence of any other data, it isthe most basic, and for many, useful enough to keep things simple., unless you are saying that it is of no value at all? Most of the guidelines with a lot of filter suppliers advise bands based upon TDS, although temporary hardness is a far more useful indicator. Kettle scale is an indicator of a comparison between unfiltered and filtered for atmospheric pressure and temperatures and whilst it is not a refined indicator, again, it is better than nothing to go by. Point is, whilst none of these things are as reliable as you suggest, for most people they provide at least a crude indicator in the absence of other more specific data.


 If it is subjective to each person, there's not much point in doing science on it, is there? You can't track, or predict what a normal population will experience/prefer in the results.

What are the increments at which the balance of Ca vs Mg are perceptibly different in taste? What are theses effects?

What is the GH:KH ratio that 95% of the sample of consumers prefer?

Both questions are specifically with respect to coffee.

If TDS is all you have, you haven't checked much & most water authorities don't supply It at first glance (they talk in degrees total hardness). By the time they do list the TDS, you have access to many other values including bicarbonate, or alkalinity.

You started this thread with a fairly basic question, but now you seem to have answers to quite esoteric concepts. Maybe next time start the thread with what you know & we can then ask you questions, rather than feigning ignorance for a bait & switch.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

brokentechie said:


> So you sit there shouting me down and your first answer/solution is EXACTLY the same as I suggest way back in the thread...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


 See post #2


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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

double post


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

brokentechie said:


> So we go from water for no scale to water for making beer.
> 
> Constant comparisons of apples to oranges
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


How exactly is an anecdote about water being adjusted for taste any different than someone talking about water being adjusted for taste?
I'm beginning to think you're just trolling now.


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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> Bica60s said:
> 
> 
> > Simply not true I'm afraid. There are some very experienced and highly qualified individuals working within water supply companies who would beg to differ with you there. Ultimately, taste is very subjective to each person but that is not to say there isn't any science behind it...if you spoke to those within our water supply companies, they would be only too pleased to confirm as much. I use TDS because in the absence of any other data, it is the most basic, and for many, useful enough to keep things simple., unless you are saying that it is of no value at all? Most of the guidelines with a lot of filter suppliers advise bands based upon TDS, although temporary hardness is a_ far_ more useful indicator. Kettle scale is an indicator of a comparison between unfiltered and filtered for atmospheric pressure and temperatures and whilst it is not a refined indicator, again, it is better than nothing to go by. Point is, whilst none of these things are as reliable as you suggest, for most people they provide at least a crude indicator in the absence of other more specific data.
> ...


 There's similar tales about Burton Brewery's change when they were no longer able to abstract water for their brewing processes, and more locally to home, we have several local breweries which have switched from their spring sources to potable water from water supply companies. In all cases, taste changed. There are many reasons for various taste profiles and these can include the variation in minerals (as %TDS), chlorides naturally present in water perhaps supplied from groundwater sources, along with other minerals. Sodium Sulphate and Magnesium Sulphate for example can impart a slightly bitter taste and I have in the past suffered from a mild upset stomach attributable to the naturally occurring sulphates in water when I was staying in a Yorkshire supply area much much different to water from my area. There are of course other examples of bacterial or chemical causation for taste profiles, some connected with the piping, mostly in the service or consumer pipework and some due to methods of water treatment leaving residual tastes within the network.


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## Bica60s (Dec 3, 2019)

MWJB said:


> If it is subjective to each person, there's not much point in doing science on it, is there? You can't track, or predict what a normal population will experience/prefer in the results.
> 
> What are the increments at which the balance of Ca vs Mg are perceptibly different in taste? What are theses effects?
> 
> ...


 Why the angst? Your statement was that there isn't any science behind taste, which wasn't true when you first typed it and remains untrue no-matter how many times you suggest otherwise. I was offering in this thread what started off as a very basic evaluation of the filter system I use and haven't once claimed that I have approached my supplier for a detailed breakdown...nor that it was the most scientific approach. What I have done is looked on line for the published data for my area If I was interested in taking it to a more detailed level, I would contact them.

You are the one, it seems, throwing more esoteric issues into the thread, and personally, I welcome the diversity and interest in the subject so am perfectly happy for the thread to develop and diverge from the initial posting, even if, as it seems, you are not. If that is the case, you are free not to keep posting, but in the interests of others who may wish to contribute, it is a little unfair to try and shut things down because you don't like the way the thread has developed.


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

MWJB said:


> If it is subjective to each person, there's not much point in doing science on it, is there? You can't track, or predict what a normal population will experience/prefer in the results.
> What are the increments at which the balance of Ca vs Mg are perceptibly different in taste? What are theses effects?
> What is the GH:KH ratio that 95% of the sample of consumers prefer?
> Both questions are specifically with respect to coffee.
> ...


 funniest answer yet.

I've been called on my knowledge so now use smoke and mirrors to disguise I don't know anything really I can only regurgitate what I've read...

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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

ashcroc said:


> How exactly is an anecdote about water being adjusted for taste any different than someone talking about water being adjusted for taste?
> I'm beginning to think you're just trolling now.


Because beer brewing and coffee brewing are chalk and cheese despite the similarities in name of the process.

I'm not a troll by any stretch and you do not seem able, along with your beau to provide any answers with anything sensible other than anecdotal answers based on your own theory...

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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

MWJB said:


> If it is subjective to each person, there's not much point in doing science on it, is there? You can't track, or predict what a normal population will experience/prefer in the results.


 Not sure that's quite right. True to say taste is subjective in the same way sound is, there's also a comparable analogue gap where the perception of taste can be altered without much in the way of measurement (we understand this when we talk about different tastes based on the shape of mugs etc), but there are measurements and standardised units of taste which apply to drinking water and are used in acceptability criteria. That analysis might again be subjective (last I read it's still done by human being water tasters...) but taste and odour are standard units used in comparisons (see for example ISO 3103).


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

@Bica60s What exactly is your claim in a nutshell? That TDS is the only thing you need to think about for your supply water? You believe that there's a general correlation between Ca Mg and Na to TDS and that bicarbonates/carbonates will correlate to those? Are you saying you don't need to worry about what the alkalinity is because TDS gives you an approximate value? Not trying to put words in your mouth or anything just having a hard time digging through the thread.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

brokentechie said:


> funniest answer yet.
> 
> I've been called on my knowledge so now use smoke and mirrors to disguise I don't know anything really I can only regurgitate what I've read...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


 My point is, if the science has been done, and we apparently know I has been done, why don't we have any answers to perfectly reasonable questions.

The floor is yours to fill the gaps in my knowledge...the same 2 questions stand.


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## brokentechie (Jun 17, 2015)

MWJB said:


> My point is, if the science has been done, and we apparently know I has been done, why don't we have any answers to perfectly reasonable questions.
> The floor is yours to fill the gaps in my knowledge...the same 2 questions stand.


What questions?

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