# Next step up from Gaggia Classic Pro



## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

Ok so I've had the Gaggia for about 8 months and have done the usual mods bar PID.

I've pulled some decent shots but do find the machine hard to be very consistent with - and yes I'm sure s lot of that is down to the lack of real temp control from a PID.

Grinder is as good as I can realistically afford - Mignon Specialita.

I'm really intrigued at how much I would gain by stepping up to an e-61 grouphead machine.

I've got a £1k cap and am currently very tempted by the Lelit Mara X

I mainly drink espresso so appreciate a HX machine may be overkill for me but just seems the Lelit gives me the best bang for my buck!

Any thoughts or recommendations?

Thanks!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Sbug said:


> Ok so I've had the Gaggia for about 8 months and have done the usual mods bar PID.
> 
> I've pulled some decent shots but do find the machine hard to be very consistent with - and yes I'm sure s lot of that is down to the lack of real temp control from a PID.
> 
> ...


 My recommendation...up your budget by £300-400 and there are some stonking machines in classifieds.....effectively end game machines for most people.


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> My recommendation...up your budget by £300-400 and there are some stonking machines in classifieds.....effectively end game machines for most people.


 Thanks for the feedback!

I hear what you're saying but another £300 is a big jump up from my maximum spend, plus ideally I'd prefer a new machine with warranty etc.

I'll take a look though for sure


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## Dusk (Feb 19, 2021)

If budget is that right then why not try a pid with your Classic, it's supposed to make a big improvement and will only be a comparatively small investment


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

Dusk said:


> If budget is that right then why not try a pid with your Classic, it's supposed to make a big improvement and will only be a comparatively small investment


 Well we are kind of talking different extremes here..

My budget is £1k - which seems to be the minimum spend too take the jump to an e-61 machine.

My point was that going more towards £1.5k represented too big a jump past my original budget.

Or as you say we go the other way with like a £95 spend on a PID for the gaggia, but I guess that's the advice I was looking for, as well as opinions on the lelit Mara X or alternative - how much change will I see for the spend on an e-61 machine in terms of espresso quality?

I'm assuming it's a case of better build quality, control and consistency - I mean there must be a reason home baristas spend £1k and considerably more on such machines rather than sticking to lower end machines like the gaggia with a PID fitted?...


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## Dusk (Feb 19, 2021)

Perhaps yes and no, in many walks of life people buy things they don't really need but will find justification. At a certain point you will only achieve marginal gains. I guess with buying a pid you don't have too much to lose as you'd get most of the additional cost back if you sell. In the meantime you can continue saving to up your budget. As Dave says, the extra few hundred pounds could be the difference between a very good(but not perfect) machine and one that will be all you ever want/need.


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

@Sbug I don't have the experience that @DavecUK does, however I'm currently running a GC Pro as well, I've used mine for over a year, I've modded the pressure and fitted a PID, it's a lot better, but it's still a Classic with the small boiler limitations that demands a wait between shots/steam to get temp stability, if it's just you drinking espresso, the PID mod will help, but it will still won't fix the boiler size and I know from experience that dialling in a new coffee is a pain when the PID says one thing but your mouth tells you something different.

Personally if I was only ever making espresso, I'd be looking looking at the ECM Classika PID / Puristika (if it ever happens), or possibly something else similar, single boiler, pid controlled with an internal temp probe/pocket with a decent sized boiler to provide a bit more heat stability, sadly most of the machines you're looking for are over £1k.


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

Deegee said:


> @Sbug I don't have the experience that @DavecUK does, however I'm currently running a GC Pro as well, I've used mine for over a year, I've modded the pressure and fitted a PID, it's a lot better, but it's still a Classic with the small boiler limitations that demands a wait between shots/steam to get temp stability, if it's just you drinking espresso, the PID mod will help, but it will still won't fix the boiler size and I know from experience that dialling in a new coffee is a pain when the PID says one thing but your mouth tells you something different.
> 
> Personally if I was only ever making espresso, I'd be looking looking at the ECM Classika PID / Puristika (if it ever happens), or possibly something else similar, single boiler, pid controlled with an internal temp probe/pocket with a decent sized boiler to provide a bit more heat stability, sadly most of the machines you're looking for are over £1k.


 Cheers - ECM Classika PID was on my radar, it's just the extra cost. I guess I need to ponder on that or the Mara X


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

Deegee said:


> @Sbug I don't have the experience that @DavecUK does, however I'm currently running a GC Pro as well, I've used mine for over a year, I've modded the pressure and fitted a PID, it's a lot better, but it's still a Classic with the small boiler limitations that demands a wait between shots/steam to get temp stability, if it's just you drinking espresso, the PID mod will help, but it will still won't fix the boiler size and I know from experience that dialling in a new coffee is a pain when the PID says one thing but your mouth tells you something different.
> 
> Personally if I was only ever making espresso, I'd be looking looking at the ECM Classika PID / Puristika (if it ever happens), or possibly something else similar, single boiler, pid controlled with an internal temp probe/pocket with a decent sized boiler to provide a bit more heat stability, sadly most of the machines you're looking for are over £1k.


 Ok I'm officially more torn than ever lol

I think I've narrowed it down to:

Lelit Mara X, ACS Minima or ECM Classika PID

I think the minima is bottom of my list, the "Marmite" nature of it worries me, don't want to spend that much and not like it.

Although I make espresso almost exclusively it just seemed the Lelit Mara X gave me the most for my money. I like it's compact size and look/build. But I've seen some reports of issues.

The ECM Classika PID was in my mind but being a single boiler machine it felt, perhaps stupidly, like less of a jump from the gaggia classic. That said I know build quality is good and I'm now wondering if this is the best option at my point if I'm mainly drinking espresso?

Ahhh decisions decisions!!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Sbug Performance wise....the Minima is way, way ahead of the other machines on your list...but if you hate the taste of marmite.....🤣


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

@Sbug thread drew me in because I'm in a similar situation, the GC Pro is my second budget machine and I'm looking to move on as well, but while the Minima is the obvious choice for me given that before too much longer I'll have visitors that like milk drinks, I just can't stomach the marmite that is the Minima, which kind of leaves the field wide open....

Tbh I think @Sbug has the easier decision. 🤨


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

Deegee said:


> @Sbug thread drew me in because I'm in a similar situation, the GC Pro is my second budget machine and I'm looking to move on as well, but while the Minima is the obvious choice for me given that before too much longer I'll have visitors that like milk drinks, I just can't stomach the marmite that is the Minima, which kind of leaves the field wide open....
> 
> Tbh I think @Sbug has the easier decision. 🤨


 I take it you are suggesting the ECM Classika PID as my easy decision?

And I don't know why but the lack of a lever on the minima really annoys me lol - appreciate the benefits of not having that element to maintain but just doesn't feel like an e61 to me without that 😂


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

Sbug said:


> I take it you are suggesting the ECM Classika PID as my easy decision?
> 
> And I don't know why but the lack of a lever on the minima really annoys me lol - appreciate the benefits of not having that element to maintain but just doesn't feel like an e61 to me without that 😂


 Not really @Sbug, your choice revolves around espresso centric machines - mostly single boiler, mine revolves around a combination of espresso/steam, so potential compromises of H/ex or DB, nothing that others haven't faced, but I confess a hatred of vibe pumps is also a factor in my decision making.

Fwiw, the lack of a lever on the Minima also irks me, I know the pressure build and drop off is calculated nicely and it all works well, but I can't help feeling it's like buying a sports car only to find it's an auto box....


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

Deegee said:


> Not really @Sbug, your choice revolves around espresso centric machines - mostly single boiler, mine revolves around a combination of espresso/steam, so potential compromises of H/ex or DB, nothing that others haven't faced, but I confess a hatred of vibe pumps is also a factor in my decision making.
> 
> Fwiw, the lack of a lever on the Minima also irks me, I know the pressure build and drop off is calculated nicely and it all works well, but I can't help feeling it's like buying a sports car only to find it's an auto box....


 Then I would have thought at the probe point we are talking the Mara X was an even better fit for you? Vibe pump aside?

Still seems a decent machine for the money...


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

I can't put my finger on it @Sbug, but there's something making me hold off the Mara X, and it's not just the pump type, I'm currently looking at Pid controlled dual boilers like the Duetto or Brewtus, if a sensibly priced one of those appeared in the for sale section I'd have to think very seriously about it.

@DavecUK, or anyone that's been through a few of the more sophisticated machines, would you say there's preferred progression through machine types, that in some way helps better understanding of the process, or is it like cars where you adapt to whatever you've got?


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

For a bit of a control, one can add a paddle on the minima or go the Bianca way or to the lever world, which has got a new kid on the horizon.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Deegee said:


> I can't put my finger on it @Sbug, but there's something making me hold off the Mara X, and it's not just the pump type, I'm currently looking at Pid controlled dual boilers like the Duetto or Brewtus, if a sensibly priced one of those appeared in the for sale section I'd have to think very seriously about it.
> 
> @DavecUK, or anyone that's been through a few of the more sophisticated machines, would you say there's preferred progression through machine types, that in some way helps better understanding of the process, or is it like cars where you adapt to whatever you've got?


 I think you adapt to whatever you have....at least that's been my experience. I do believe a dual boiler is always preferable because of the flexibility and temperature accuracy if you get the right machine. That said, the MaraX comes as close as I think any HX can. Time served on cheaper to more expensive machines, to earn the sackcloth and ashes, doesn't really help you understand the process any better IMO. I think get the best you can easily* afford*, or *want* to spend....saves a lot of hassle.


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee a lever was a very strong contender, but I saw the hassle @Cuprajake had when he got the Londinium and tbh I don't need or want to do that, I suspect that itch may come back again, but not for some years I think.

@DavecUK thanks for that, I didn't know if there was something extra to be learned from H/ex or whether it was a step that could be missed at no cost in experience. A slightly s/h PID controlled DB and rotary pump machine is my preferred spec, preferably one built like a tank from a reliability pov would be perfect.

@Sbug sorry for the slight threadjack!


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Deegee said:


> a lever was a very strong contender, but I saw the hassle @Cuprajake had when he got the Londinium and tbh I don't need or want to do that, I suspect that itch may come back again, but not for some years I think.


 I am no expert. Dave is. I belong to do it once with no regrets category. 😊 I am sure Jake doesn't regret the switch. The bottomline is you should do what you like and be comfortable with.


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> I am no expert. Dave is. I belong to do it once with no regrets category. 😊 I am sure Jake doesn't regret the switch. The bottomline is you should do what you like and be comfortable with.


 Maybe I'm wrong and the Lever itch will return sooner, but Jakes initial problems illustrated that a lever machine is a technique to be learned slowly, I've also watched other members upgrade and have issues with machines with lots of variables, hence my position that a sensible next step would be a regular DB, reinforce and progress my own abilities and then maybe when the pressure/flow controllable tech is more mature move on to that. There is a plan, but you know what they say about the best laid plans....


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Deegee said:


> A slightly s/h PID controlled DB and rotary pump machine is my preferred spe


 Vibe pumps are a pain but if you had hung around on here long enough you'd notice people wondering about ways of adding a controlled pre infusion to a rotary pump machine. Since my absence there seems to be less posts about this sort of thing - different people around.  There is no end to it. Buy a lever and what comes out will be dependent on how that is manipulated, maybe not on some. Buy a Vesuvius and I believe you would get your rotary pump and any old preinfusion you might desire. HX has it's problems. An old post goes through using a fan to get round some of them but a DB is likely to do better but some will have better temp stability than others.

Maybe one step people should take is bottomless portafilter and a shot mirror to see what is going on.


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Deegee said:


> Maybe I'm wrong and the Lever itch will return sooner, but Jakes initial problems illustrated that a lever machine is a technique to be learned slowly, I've also watched other members upgrade and have issues with machines with lots of variables, hence my position that a sensible next step would be a regular DB, reinforce and progress my own abilities and then maybe when the pressure/flow controllable tech is more mature move on to that. There is a plan, but you know what they say about the best laid plans....


 The itch to upgrade. 😂

If you think this will return sooner than you think it will, you might want to take a pause, ask the experts like @DavecUK, @dfk41, @Cuprajake , @Rob1 take a closer look at what you can afford, may be post a new thread (if required) and go from there. Please do read the lever threads including the new Vesuvius lever thread.

Please take your time and decide.

FWIW, I am on the V Evo Leva pre-order. A massive end-game upgrade for me from brews and cheap espresso machines. Fun and despair are defo in store. I am not scared though 😅

Of course, you can always sell and upgrade. 😊


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

My issuse were my own doing, too much reading,

I settled on 14g in the 16g stock basket

Quick wdt and tamp, 5sec lever down then lift

The original londinium you dont wait for drips in the actual paper work that came with.

For me though the machine is very much designed around med/dark roasts and to this it excells, anything lighter and you will struggle as it only has boiler pressure to infuse, 1.5bar.

Ive actually decided to sell mine, ive been on the lookout for the lr which allows you to change the pre infusion pressures and to play with extraction. I did find one but im not paying £2500 for a used machine,

Ive ordered a crem one 2b lfpp from Bella barista, it was ment to be here yesterday (sat) paid £30 shipping. Nothing came sadly and now it appears to be lost on the tracking.

I will however be using a lever profile for extractions.

Heres the londinium on a med roast


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

First off, sorry to @Sbug for the continued threadjack, this wasn't my intention when I chimed in on this thread.

Re Lever machines, I'm curious about them, I like the traditional nature of them, but I'm very aware that they require a fair bit of learning, plus our kitchen at present won't allow one simply because of the height of the lever interfering with cupboard doors, so while I like the idea, it isn't happening for the time being regardless of my wants etc, maybe in the future, a dedicated coffee corner is in the design for the kitchen revamp, so I'll make sure I've got the headroom required for a lever - should that itch need scratching of course. 😉

My primary reason for upgrading is the small boiler in the GC, I've got coffee consuming family that at some point in the not too far distant future will be allowed back to visit, the GC Pro simply can't produce 4-6 coffees together in a timely manner, hence I'm looking at upgrading and was interested in what other members thought was a logical step from the GC and to see if that aligned with my own ideas on the next step up.

Fwiw @ajohn I had looked at the Vesuvius and I do love the idea of pre-infusion, but they are rare beasts second hand, iirc I've only seen 3 come up for sale on here in the last year or so, although they're slow to sell when they do, sadly at present the V is too high to fit under our cupboards and put a cup on top of it, so it's a non starter unfortunately.

Hi there @Cuprajake, not surprised you're selling the Londinium, you've gone through a fair few grinders and machines in the last year or so, so it's par for the course you're moving on again, fingers crossed the Crem arrives soon and turns out to be a keeper. 👍


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Id happily move to an lr i just cant warrent so much on a used machine


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Cuprajake Hiya, can you remind me what roast style your preference is again. I have only had the original L1 variant but plenty on here, such as @The Systemic Kid have had the older and the LR variant. Sometimes it is a shame that new price increases have the effect of raising second hand prices, but anyway, let's see if we can identify and help you to get the best out of your L1.


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

> 2 hours ago, Cuprajake said:
> 
> My issuse were my own doing, too much reading,
> 
> ...


 Like a change don't ya pal 😂


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I like all sorts,

The londo is very med roast orientated. And with thos i can get some very nice drinks indeed.

When i try a lighter roast, thats where it struggles,. The grinders fine, hence wanting to try the lr.

I believe he still offers the normal price if laying by bacs, its card companies and paypal that take a massive cut etc

His customer service has been bang on with me, when i was struggling with it at the start he offered to video call me


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Cuprajake Jake, I know it sounds daft, but if you get good results with your L1 using medium roasts, and enjoy them, why not stick with that and perhaps save the lighter stuff for a bit of brewed? It sounds like you will need the latest itinerant of LR, prior to the 24 to allow you to have the transducer and ap to play around with


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@Joe shorrock at the time i bought the l1 there were 2 lr for sale around the 2k mark,

For me i wasnt sure if like the londinium so i went for the cheaper l1, should of gone for the lr but sometimes when you're just not sure

Fwiw most profiling machines always settle on a londinium profile 😂😂😂


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@dfk41 im at the limitations of the machine now i suppose.

And yeah the one i found was that model you mention but £2500 ..


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Cuprajake as much as I hate saying it Jake, £2500 is about the price of the new Vesuvius Evo Leva......you should drop TSK a line when he is back from holidays, and put a ski mask on and pop over and have a look at his.......people call me a Londinium basher, but that is because it suits their narrative. I have had a few L1's and really do admire them, but I also know their limitations and it seems a no bargainer buying a used LR to a new Evo.......but, I am quite prepared to be wrong!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Deegee said:


> I had looked at the Vesuvius and I do love the idea of pre-infusion,


 You can get preinfusion on a rotary pump machine if it's plumbed in. The range depends on the pressure range the pump will accept and how well the E61 lever works. There should be a position where it just allows the supply water pressure through without the pump running.

Different types of machines can give different tastes. A factor that pushed me towards and SDB because of what can be changed in them. I didn't fancy a huge shiny expensive chunk of stuff and then finding I didn't like what it produced.  No need to worry about cup warming on it. Never on long enough.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

As good as that lever from acs may be, im a bit wary of being the first in a first run batch, if there any issues (probably none) but i dont have the time to faff.

That's whats wound me up so much with my del not coming.

I work 6 days a week, and it ment someone being at home all day yesterday and now monday too dam fedex


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Cuprajake I get the first run thing. I bought a QM Veloce from BB (I was a little bit involved with the project and for my sins they asked me to name it). It turned out to have a few problems! The Evo Leva is slightly different in as much as Davec put the project together fro a design perspective. It uses on the whole, parts from other ACS machines which are a known quantity. Dave has had the Frankenstein as we cake it as a test bed for some 3 monhs or so. In that Time it has been been thoroughly tested, and is now at a stage where I believe half the first run of ten are built and just finishing testing before dispatch. The machines are air freighted so delivery through DHS is pretty accurate. But, the first two runs are sold out do any new takers would be in the third run, giving plenty of time for accurate owner feedback


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

Deegee said:


> First off, sorry to @Sbug for the continued threadjack, this wasn't my intention when I chimed in on this thread.
> 
> Re Lever machines, I'm curious about them, I like the traditional nature of them, but I'm very aware that they require a fair bit of learning, plus our kitchen at present won't allow one simply because of the height of the lever interfering with cupboard doors, so while I like the idea, it isn't happening for the time being regardless of my wants etc, maybe in the future, a dedicated coffee corner is in the design for the kitchen revamp, so I'll make sure I've got the headroom required for a lever - should that itch need scratching of course. 😉
> 
> ...


 I'll let you off @Deegee - logged on to all these notifications and none for me 😞

LOL


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Sbug Back on topic! The problems are firstly who to buy from, then what to buy. The retailer is very important and in Bella Barista and Black Cat Coffee (both forum sponsors) we are lucky to have two excellent retailers. Black Cat are ACS agents in the UK and they will have a machine in or around your budget. BB will have a wider choice but not the ACS machines. Have a look at both, but as always, everything you desire will be just out of range, but thats life! Talk to them. BC use the forum whereas BB you will need to ring or email them. People have said put a Pid on the Classic. Personally, I would not go down that route but different ships different captains


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Cuprajake said:


> I like all sorts,
> 
> The londo is very med roast orientated. And with thos i can get some very nice drinks indeed.
> 
> ...


 Not negating your experience , just saying it won't be the same for everyone with that machine .

You dont see hardly any pressure/flow profiling machines in good coffeee shops , they will have 2to3 bar line pressure ( unless using a limiter ) , so do they all maker bad espresso for everyone , will come down to personal preference .

This again is my experience only , is different to yours , I am not right you are not wrong , no absolutes but I got good results from lighter roasts with a old l1 ( mythos , k30 , Ek43 grinders ) . You can always spend more money and get better , marginal gains and all that.


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

dfk41 said:


> @Sbug Back on topic! The problems are firstly who to buy from, then what to buy. The retailer is very important and in Bella Barista and Black Cat Coffee (both forum sponsors) we are lucky to have two excellent retailers. Black Cat are ACS agents in the UK and they will have a machine in or around your budget. BB will have a wider choice but not the ACS machines. Have a look at both, but as always, everything you desire will be just out of range, but thats life! Talk to them. BC use the forum whereas BB you will need to ring or email them. People have said put a Pid on the Classic. Personally, I would not go down that route but different ships different captains


 Cheers! Yeah I have spoken to Bella Barista and they were really helpful, they actually steered me towards the Mara X - based on my budget of course.

Actually bought my Mignon grinder from Black Cat and agree also really helpful !!


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## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

@Sbug, have you considered the Lelit Elizabeth ? I can be found at roughly the same price as the MaraX, but adds adjustable pre-infusion, warms up faster than an E61 machine, is easier to maintain and is a double boiler design with the corresponding temperature stability/control ?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Sbug i know you said that 1k is the budget but the minima is a cracking machine, and its a solenoid group so never needs greasing.

Stainless boilers too.

@Mrboots2u yeah i understand , the original londinium like mine uses boiler pressure which is 1.3bar peak for pre infusion. There are plumb able versions, but im not allowed to hack the kitchen 😂


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

Cuprajake said:


> Sbug i know you said that 1k is the budget but the minima is a cracking machine, and its a solenoid group so never needs greasing.
> 
> Stainless boilers too.
> 
> @Mrboots2u yeah i understand , the original londinium like mine uses boiler pressure which is 1.3bar peak for pre infusion. There are plumb able versions, but im not allowed to hack the kitchen 😂


 @Cuprajake I haven't totally dismissed the Minima.

I'm not mad keen that it has a brew switch rather than a lever, also how does it hangout handle pre-infusion?

What's the warm up time like?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Warm up time i had mine on a timer but 25 mins id say,

The pre infusion ramp up was really nice tbf

https://youtube.com/shorts/KaH70PoRIHw?feature=share


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Sorry the link is the ramp up


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Cuprajake said:


> Sbug i know you said that 1k is the budget but the minima is a cracking machine, and its a solenoid group so never needs greasing.
> 
> Stainless boilers too.
> 
> @Mrboots2u yeah i understand , the original londinium like mine uses boiler pressure which is 1.3bar peak for pre infusion. There are plumb able versions, but im not allowed to hack the kitchen 😂


 I had the same L1 - run on thank also


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Mrboots2u said:


> I had the same L1 - run on thank also


 I believe you can plumb them, but not in the same way a compressa is.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Cuprajake I plumbed a couple in......well, @ The Systemic Kid did for me. Simple to do and when plumbed in makes life so simple, especially if you plumb the waste out but in my day, you did not play with pre0infusion the way some do today


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Sbug said:


> @Cuprajake I haven't totally dismissed the Minima.
> 
> I'm not mad keen that it has a brew switch rather than a lever, also how does it hangout handle pre-infusion?


 With hindsight I think the brew switch is great and I'm really glad there is no additional maintenance required as for a lever E61.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

HVL87 said:


> With hindsight I think the brew switch is great and I'm really glad there is no additional maintenance required as for a lever E61.


 And you can backflush as often as you want!...in fact once every week or 2 weeks, is recommended


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

HVL87 said:


> With hindsight I think the brew switch is great and I'm really glad there is no additional maintenance required as for a lever E61.


 Yeah I do get that element of it...

Ah man, decisions decisions lol


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@Sbug most e61 have a brew switch

While on the marax the brew lever is both mechanical and switch behind the lever theres a plunger that starts the pump


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

If it were me, well it was before i wnet mental and spent dadt money

My budget was £1200 ish

I know you only drink espresso but id future proof and buy the best you can, the minima and Elizabeth are both better than a marax imo, not to say its not a cracking machine, but you will have the limitations of a hx, i know it has a pid, but still


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

Cuprajake said:


> If it were me, well it was before i wnet mental and spent dadt money
> 
> My budget was £1200 ish
> 
> I know you only drink espresso but id future proof and buy the best you can, the minima and Elizabeth are both better than a marax imo, not to say its not a cracking machine, but you will have the limitations of a hx, i know it has a pid, but still


 Thanks, appreciated.

The Elizabeth is out for me purely on looks, I personally just don't like it's design.

So I think I'm now down to the Mara X or the Minima


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Yeah thats what put me off the Elizabeth. Looks like an appliance not an espresso machine 😂

The bang for buck is in the minima, but i understand there not everyones taste. You can run it in brew mode only, no steam if you wish to also, i did that, then just flick the steam boiler on when needed. 5 mins to get to temp.

Bare in mind it will be noisier pump wise than the marax


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Sbug said:


> Yeah I do get that element of it...
> 
> Ah man, decisions decisions lol


 To entice you further...a black Minima.


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

HVL87 said:


> To entice you further...a black Minima.
> 
> View attachment 57295


 Stop already...lol


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Sbug said:


> The Elizabeth is out for me purely on looks, I personally just don't like it's design.


 Poor Lizzy&#8230;


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Poor Lizzy&#8230;


 I'm sure she's lovely but you know, despite what they say appearances do count ....😂


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> To entice you further...a black Minima.
> 
> View attachment 57295


 6-8week leadtimes on black ones at blackcat


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

pgarrish said:


> 6-8week leadtimes on black ones at blackcat


 Ouch..

Also I've just seen the water tank (if you can call it that, more a tub?!) set up on the Minima.

Looks to me like it's very difficult to top-up/fill in situ? And that you probably have to remove it to safely fill each time - does that seem right?

Only reason I ask is I won't have enough clearance above the machine to lift the tank out, so I'd have to pull the machine out each time to fill it up...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Sbug I use a plastic automotive oil jug with a flexible spout. About £8 from Amazon.


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> @Sbug I use a plastic automotive oil jug with a flexible spout. About £8 from Amazon.


 Good idea!


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I used to slide ir, the machine comes with stick on pads that let it slide easy

Not hard to fill though, people moan about the wather container but dont get it, its warert tight and out of sight 😂😂


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

All you need is a long neck oil or watering can small ish one.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

So my crem one arrived and has gone straight back in the box. Really disappointed

View attachment 57320
pump is nosiy as hell






View attachment 57320
View attachment 57321
View attachment 57322


View attachment 57323


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

> 17 minutes ago, Cuprajake said:
> 
> So my crem one arrived and has gone straight back in the box. Really disappointed
> 
> come with scratches on it and pump is nosiy as hell


 Oh that's a real shame, feel for you - gutting when you're looking forward to something and it doesn't live up to expectations. Very poor re the scratches etc, where did you order it from? What machine are you going for instead?


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

> 6 hours ago, Cuprajake said:
> 
> So my crem one arrived and has gone straight back in the box. Really disappointed
> 
> come with scratches on it and pump is nosiy as hell


 Sorry to hear this Jake. That's really a shame. IMHO, wallet permitting, I think you should hang in there with your L, wait for the first batch owners of the V to share their experiences, let them try with light roasts and in the meantime request @DavecUK to pull a few light-roast magic shots with his Alpha. Tariffic light is what comes to my mind. 😊


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Mite sound sad but i dont like the sound of the vostok machine that pump kicking in. Etc

Im not sure what to do now tbh. Totally disheartened


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Really sorry to hear that @Cuprajake . That's very annoying and somewhat disappointing. Don't know where you bought it from, but hopefully they will sort you out swiftly.


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

It's only a 4 bar rotary pump, if I am not wrong, just for the pre-infusion, is it not?

Fair enough, though, if you don't like it.


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## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

Sbug said:


> Ok so I've had the Gaggia for about 8 months and have done the usual mods bar PID.
> 
> I've pulled some decent shots but do find the machine hard to be very consistent with - and yes I'm sure s lot of that is down to the lack of real temp control from a PID.
> 
> ...


 I don't know if you have already decided on something, but it really depends on what you want to prioritise.

MaraX small footprint, little noise

Minima less maintenance, bigger boilers, better temp control

Alternatively, machines like the Flair 58 can be considered. This won't have a boiler, and the temperature will be set in a MaraX-esque fashion with three settings, but it gives you the full flexibility of profiling the shot the way you want, which can be useful if you drink the fruit juice style of coffee that is all the rage nowadays.

None of these is the non plus ultra of machines, but they all excel at something.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Cuprajake Do not judge the finished article on Daves cobbled together Frankenstein matey! Daves machine was build out of very old parts, just as a concept to se if it would all fit in a Vesuvius case, to work out additional strengthening etc. The first machines should be out there very soon, then we can all judge it!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@dfk41 Vesuvius EVO Leva pump will still make the same noise as Frankenstein when it fills group. Such is the nature of gear pumps, especially when they have to have a very high flow rate.

My machine has no bottom plates at all (completely open), so a production machine might be a bit quiter.


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Am sure, the dB of the Leva pump is lower than that of Minima's Vibe.


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

> 9 hours ago, Cuprajake said:
> 
> So my crem one arrived and has gone straight back in the box. Really disappointed
> 
> come with scratches on it and pump is nosiy as hell


 That's such a shame. Horrid to be disappointed like that. A replacement might be fine but it might feel tainted now too.... Fingers crossed you get sorted out


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Am sure, the dB of the Leva pump is lower than that of Minima's Vibe.


 @Cuprajake - I've experienced the non Mary Shelley Frankenstein in the flesh. The noise of the pump is no bother. Yes, it's a distraction if you are a lever purist and expect complete silence, but I wouldn't say it's any worse than a machine with a vibe pump.

I just watched the video from Dave on the Crem One... Now... That's very, very really quiet. 🙂


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

yeah whisper quiet, thats what drew me to it, im very noise sensitive, hence getting rid of the minima


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Cuprajake said:


> Mite sound sad but i dont like the sound of the vostok machine that pump kicking in. Etc
> 
> Im not sure what to do now tbh. Totally disheartened


 Scratches in the non-visible areas of machines sometimes happen, so the ones in the plastic behind the drip tray...meh, can happen, no biggie, the one in the metal behind the drip tray where the screw is more than I would ever expect. Anything visible with the drip tray in place is unacceptable....so you did right to send it back.

*As for the pump noise*, you only did one video, which makes it very difficult for diagnostics, but that type of pump in the Crem running full flow at 24V, does get noisy, I said so in my review. It's the nature of the pump. This get a bit technical, but It's important people understand it....and I'm talking about the software on the machine I reviewed, which has changed a little. There is the potential for user misoperation...most likely nothing wrong with the pump at all.

On service boiler autofill it's a low pressure high flow situation = mitigation pump max voltage reduced, results in slower autofill but much less noise

*User misoperation, leaving the lever up without the pump running* (especially with the service boiler on) will create a brew boiler void and brief noisy pump, ruining a profile= mitigation, correct use of machine, and/or remove preheat system, or design same system as Vesuvius where preheat mechanically disconnects when the pump stops running

*Explanation*

Because preheat is used service boiler pressure can be 1.3 to 1.5 bar or higher, and because the actual ideal offset is so low at 7C (my findings), the brew boiler is generally at 100 ish or zero positive pressure. If the lever is left down after the pump stops running at the end of a shot, with no pressure in the system a void will immediately develop in the brew boiler. This is because some water in brew water HX preheat flashes off to steam until the pressure equalises.

When the lever is next lifted, the pump runs very, very fast to fill this void, with almost no pressure and creates that brief noise...which also fecks up a profile, because the water used in filling the void becomes part of the shot volume calculations for any profile.

It's why I always set my profiles to run on slightly beyond the volume I want in the programming.* It's very, very important to lower the lever before the profile stops or you get a void as described above, and I advised Crem to put this in the instructions.* So when the lever is flashing lower it with perhaps 1 second left on the profile.

Here is the same noise on my machine (which is near silent in all the videos I published)*. I PURPOSELY induced a void in the brew boiler by leaving the lever up without the pump running, it can also happen if you lift the lever without a profile being properly selected (see my videos, where I made that mistake). You can see my machine made the same brief noise Jakes machine did. *Then went quiet after the void was filled....once filled it of course stays filled.






P.S. I didn't do too much more with the Crem, I wanted to make more videos, showing profile editing etc.. and actually did do one with all the advanced settings, then they changed everything, so it wasn't really valid, took me 5 hours to make and edit it. Working with a large corporate was difficult and they basically ran me out of time. It's not like working with the owner of a company.

In the end I moved on to other projects and simply have not had the time to return to the crem machine. Over the next few months I am going to make time to revisit it and update some stuff, my review and do some profile editing, plus video the advanced settings process.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

yeah i saw that, in fact offered it to a crem group i joined as advice,

the profile i used was a copy of a londinium i made, 2bar infusion 8 bar peak tail to 3bar finish,

i did make more vids, second pull was the same, as was a flush from the group for cleaning,

i also tried it on the 'sweetbump' profile and it did the same, not once did i run it to the end of the shot with no flow,

sadly there are three others who have noisy pumps

its a shame as its such a good machine in theory.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Cuprajake That's odd, my machine is almost totally silent...but who knows what changes have been made? Yours certainly sounded like the noise it makes when filling a brew boiler void...strange.

I'm sure you will find something that suits...I think if machine noise is a deciding factor.....it's tricky. Biancas can be very quiet indeed (nice rotary pump implementation). I've asked Lelit to send me a Quiet Pump, want to try one in my Minima. Some of the ECM rotaries are very quiet.

Or you go for a plumbed lever, which will be totally silent.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Yeah its tricky.

I saw your review and actually offered that advice to a crem owners group i joind as a few had that noise also

From all the vids id seen its a quiet very clever machine.

I know a rotary isnt silent but its not a vibe pump 😂😂😂


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

La Pavoni makes no noise, you can do pressure profiling, and you can control temperature... Well.. Kind of 🙂


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I just got off the phone to them. They are aware of the problem and so are Crem. Apparently its a known fault that Crem have developed technical kits to fix the existing machines but they haven't sent them out yet. Bella Barista sound really frustrated by it all and are losing patience fast with Crem. Something to do with a fsulty solenoid thst leads the hot water back to the res.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Cuprajake said:


> I just got off the phone to them.


 What about the scratches? Do they know why and how it happened?


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## Rainmac13 (Jun 11, 2020)

Cuprajake said:


> I just got off the phone to them. They are aware of the problem and so are Crem. Apparently its a known fault that Crem have developed technical kits to fix the existing machines but they haven't sent them out yet. Bella Barista sound really frustrated by it all and are losing patience fast with Crem. Something to do with a fsulty solenoid thst leads the hot water back to the res.


 Source or it didn't happen 😉


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## muffs (Apr 27, 2017)

Sbug said:


> Ok so I've had the Gaggia for about 8 months and have done the usual mods bar PID.
> 
> I've pulled some decent shots but do find the machine hard to be very consistent with - and yes I'm sure s lot of that is down to the lack of real temp control from a PID.
> 
> ...


 I upgraded from the a sage DT to Mara x. I wasn't intending to spend that much more, but i couldn't see a worth while way to upgrade with a new machine by spending less. So far I am really happy with it. Been a slight learning curve in using it. BB were on hand to offer support. It certainly gets a thumbs up from me.


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

muffs said:


> I upgraded from the a sage DT to Mara x. I wasn't intending to spend that much more, but i couldn't see a worth while way to upgrade with a new machine by spending less. So far I am really happy with it. Been a slight learning curve in using it. BB were on hand to offer support. It certainly gets a thumbs up from me.


 Sage/Breville Dual Boiler? Unbeatable value at the price and you might well bag a really good second hand example (I just did)


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

@SbugIf I remember correctly you are an espresso guy? Check out the Bezzera Unica PID all the looks and build quality but single boiler so sub £1k price.

@Cuprajake

I have one only -










Although I kinda feel like you just need to go for an absolute end game machine and get a Decent!


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## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Nice duetto. Mine is due to be picked up in a couple of weeks by new owner. It will be missed (but will have Vostok so will survive)..

I looked at the crem as well, before deciding on lever machine. Just before I embarked on the Vostok, was very close to getting the izzo Alex leva with @BlackCatCoffee - Basically the same case as a duetto with an LSM group. Traditional dipper so reliable, toggle/sticks with wood, 5l boiler for plenty of steam. Plus point for me was ... Totally silent when plumbed (I'm also noise sensitive). Not sure if you have plumbing, but if you have the can't get quieter than silent (no pump at all) which is pretty cool! You may be tired of levers though given as in classified...


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Love the lever, just at its limitations


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## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Cuprajake said:


> Love the lever, just at its limitations


 I crave simplicity and reliability (at the moment at least). Sounds like maybe decent - personally couldn't get over the price (and the worry about parts failure after 4+ years), and my natural ocd nature = rabbit hole too far for me right now...

... Someone mentioned also that noisy...


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Yeah, i wish i could plumb in.


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## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Cuprajake said:


> Yeah, i wish i could plumb in.


 I can say that the rotary on a duetto is very quiet indeed. Would also say that plumbing in was worth it - managed to get done as part of kitchen refit. The plumbing was easy, drainage is not done yet. The water purification harder (on-going refinement process)..

.. more of a pain is the on-going rabbit hole I've swapped for (grinder research).


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> @SbugIf I remember correctly you are an espresso guy? Check out the Bezzera Unica PID all the looks and build quality but single boiler so sub £1k price.
> 
> @Cuprajake
> 
> ...


 Yes you are correct i am an espresso drinker, though of course as we get back to some normality it'll be nice to make milk based drinks for people too.

Think I did look at the Bezerra but thought it wasn't an e61 group head? I need to double check that but the would put me off..


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Sbug said:


> Yes you are correct i am an espresso drinker, though of course as we get back to some normality it'll be nice to make milk based drinks for people too.
> 
> Think I did look at the Bezerra but thought it wasn't an e61 group head? I need to double check that but the would put me off..


 The Unica PID is an E61 group. They do offer some machines with their own proprietary group, it has its advantages but doesn't offer the nice tactile experience of lifting up the lever to brew and classic looks of the E61.

David


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## Sbug (Mar 2, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> The Unica PID is an E61 group. They do offer some machines with their own proprietary group, it has its advantages but doesn't offer the nice tactile experience of lifting up the lever to brew and classic looks of the E61.
> 
> David


 Thanks David, really helpful.

I'll have a look at the Unica PID too in that case.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

sorry to go off topic again,

but my ordeal is over, bella barista have refunded me in full for my order

i have mixed feelings, while the aftercare has been really good, olivia is worth her weight in gold, however imo the machine should never have left the door!

crem and bb know about these issues with this machine, well aware of it, it should be taken off sale till its sorted,

as a consumer, not only has it really pee'd me off, we've spent a total of 3 days stopping in waiting for various delivery and pick up, not directly related to bb but still a total waste of a week.

so i started to look for another machine, been through various e61 rotary machines, vbm do a really ugly profiling machine lol, then a used lr came up,

in the end i decided endgame and bought a new londinium lr24 - happy times


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## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Cuprajake said:


> sorry to go off topic again,
> 
> but my ordeal is over, bella barista have refunded me in full for my order
> 
> ...


 Nice - cool! Rotary on it is very quiet.


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## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

Sbug said:


> Yes you are correct i am an espresso drinker, though of course as we get back to some normality it'll be nice to make milk based drinks for people too.
> 
> Think I did look at the Bezerra but thought it wasn't an e61 group head? I need to double check that but the would put me off..


 I don't think you should be put off by some Bezzera not being E61.

Now, I don't know if the BZ group will have a solenoid valve like the Minima (but the lack of a lever makes me think so), which means less maintenance, and if it is saturated as I remember, it should heat up faster and potentially have even better temperature stability than the E61 (anecdotally).

Off the top of my mind, the only downside would be that you wouldn't be able to upgrade it with flow control paddles and all of those shenanigans.

There might be other downsides but to be honest I wouldn't discard a machine merely based on this.


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