# Basic L1 question



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

been having issues and am thinking out loud here. Can someone explain to me so I can sort my head out! If you dose a double basket at for arguments sake, 16 gms, to pull a double (2 ounce shot), do you end up pulling the lever twice and if so, can you explain the shot pulling process from start to finish.

likewise, if you put 8 gms into a single basket, how long should the extraction take from raiding the handle. I think my years with E61 machines has left me punch drunk!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Interesting question, David. I have always assumed, with a lever, a fixed amount of water (approx 50ml) is drawn into the LI piston chamber prior to a shot extraction irrespective of whether you are making a single or double - i.e. it's set up for double shot extraction. I've never pulled a single shot on my L1 but would, we're I making a single, remove the cup after 25-30ml extraction. Can't imagine pulling the lever twice with the same puck.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Patrick, the debate begins then! I have been conversing with Reiss and he insists that the L1 is set up so that a single pull of the lever gives a single shot, and that it is quite acceptable to dose 16 gms, pre infuse a few seconds, pull, at the 75% return status, pull down again to produce what we would consider to be a 2 ounce double, and I will quote some of the text

Shot weight is a better indicator

Do understand that all these lever machines are set up for 1oz per pull

You will not get 2oz from one pull

You're dealing with old school, this is the real thing

You pull twice for a double measure traditionally

But there's a catch!

Modern coffee know it alls think the ideal brew ration is around 60%

So 18g of coffee producing a shot weighing 30g gives you the 60% figure

Take your pick!

I asked this, because I am blowed if I can dose 16 gms and pull an acceptable double shot, and the above explains it. My shot was running out of water no matter what I did to the grind/tamp combo! This is going to make me question the whole lever approach now as my main drink is a cappa based on a 2 ounce shot, with the same of milk and foam.......perhaps I am more suited to pumps!


----------



## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Have you tried preinfusing for longer with a coarser grind?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Not yet, lsh, but the principle surely is the same, which is the group is set up for a single shot only?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Stone me David - it's all too much. I am going back to Nescafe - much less hassle.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Strange hey Patrick....gets you thinking it does! I suppose when you watch the L1 videos Reiss does he pulls a shot into his own cups. Now, having a pair, it is safe to assume that he indeed pulls a single shot as you cannot get 2 fluid ounces in and pick it up! The Strega of course, does this with ease but only if you let the pump pull the shot as opposed to the spring. It is making me reconsider my position though!


----------



## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I generally weigh 16g, 6 secs preinfusion then release the lever. The Londinium cup fills nicely in about 25 seconds, I remove the cup and it keeps going for another 5. Thats my double.

Its never crossed my mind to do 2 lever pulls.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I need to make a point here, that even though we are discussing our L1 machines, this single shot per pull is a feature of all lever machines (except possibly the Strega since it is pump assisted). It is so obvious when you think about it, but it does raise questions to some of us like me, who are new to the lever concept. The Londinium cup holds 2 fluid ounces to the rim, but then you could not pick it up, so the cup is set to work best on a single shot of about an ounce. If we weigh in 16 gms, then I guess the optimal weight out, at 60% becomes 27 gms for a single shot, or have I got that bit wrong? If we only intend to pull a single, then ought we switch to the singles backet and just dose at 6 to 8 gms? Would the shot still take 27 seconds? So many questions.......we need an experienced lever maester to put us right!

me, i am way to practice again!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Does that also mean then, if dosing at 16 gms, and only extracting 1 ounce we are unintentionally pulling ristrettos?


----------



## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

Would 27g from your 16 not be like doing the same on a pump machine,when i go for a 60% ratio on my expo from 17g I usually only get 1.5oz ish and then a little less once the initial crema settles,I reckon that if I dosed 16g I'd only get about 1oz from the ratio,the thing with the pump is i can just carry the shot on for more volume where as you would have to repull the lever,

I presume with the single you just use a dedicated single basket with less holes in it but go for the same 27 second mark,

Do you get a single basket with the L1 or just a double?


----------



## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> Not yet, lsh, but the principle surely is the same, which is the group is set up for a single shot only?


If you can fully saturate the puck and fill the piston you'll be at the theoretical maximum. With a Strega though of course you have the option of pulling the first half with pump and finishing with the lever.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Right, that makes sense then, but would you soak the puck and extract the 'double' with a single lever pull or a double lever pull....we need a video from someone!


----------



## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

1. Never pull the lever twice for one shot.

2. You can extract a full two ounze double (or two singles) from 14g to 16g but most of us would pull the shot before you reach the top of the cup. One way of looking at this is extraction ratios have got higher (more concentrated) in recent years compared to the Italian tradition. In volume terms, I generally pull around 35cc to 40cc from that 15g.

3. Whether you call this a ristrettro or not is up to you. You could pull two 30cc singles from one 14g dose in north Italian style (I think in southern Italy they like them a little shorter), but most of would go for less volume.

4. I've yet to go into a modern specialist coffee shop and get a cup filled up to the two ounze brim - that's not the way it's done now. It isn't really anything do to with lever v. pump, is just the the last 20cc of extraction doesn't taste so good. If you want a longer coffee, use the hot water tap!


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

lookseehear said:


> If you can fully saturate the puck and fill the piston you'll be at the theoretical maximum. With a Strega though of course you have the option of pulling the first half with pump and finishing with the lever.


 Having played for a while with the Strega, technically you are right, however if ou pre infuse for only 5 seconds thus not allowing the chamber to pressurise, I.e. taking out the pump function, as basically it I'd ps a lever or not! Then you get a two oz pull just.

There really is no point to pulling half of a shot on e pump as you are negating the pressure profiling achieved through a lever and thus the unique extraction that gives.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Right, that makes sense then, but would you soak the puck and extract the 'double' with a single lever pull or a double lever pull....we need a video from someone!


I will do videos when I get back from Italy of both the Strega and the Bosco, which shares the same group as the L1. I basically get 1.5 oz from the Bosco as a double shot, I also pull the cup before blonding as this produces a much nicer shot. If you pre infuse until the first drip, or 20 secs if no drip then you pretty much get the 1.5 every time. Also remember that if you grind finer then the volume or head space in the basket is increased slightly allowing slightly more water into the process.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Yes, some interesting thoughts coming out here. You are dead right, that since you have to drink what you produce, then forget output and let taste rule. I think for me, I had the classic cappuccino formula of 2 + 2 + 2 giving a 6 ounce shot imprinted on my mind.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Just needs to be a shot plus 2 plus 2. Even the constituent makeup of a particular drink is still Lind of irrelevant as people make their drinks differently, this is just about the taste of the eventual drink even if it is slightly different than the supposed reference point


----------



## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

I'd just like to add that this discussion is really not about the LI or, in fact, lever machines in general, but basic principles of espresso making.

Although you can let the pump run on a pump machine for as long as you like (or until the reservoir is empty), no one in practice would want to do that. The basic parameters discussed above apply whether you are using a pump or a lever machine.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

RoloD said:


> I'd just like to add that this discussion is really not about the LI or, in fact, lever machines in general, but basic principles of espresso making.
> 
> Although you can let the pump run on a pump machine for as long as you like (or until the reservoir is empty), no one in practice would want to do that. The basic parameters discussed above apply whether you are using a pump or a lever machine.


Actually this about levers really as they are restricted in the volume of water that is possible to pass through a puck with one single action of the machine, unlike pump machines that will keep going until you stop them. The levers are set up traditionally and ergo will never be capable of a 2 oz shot due to the restricted water supply.

The op will never be able to pull the shot volumes he desires ( rightly or wrongly with an L1 or for that matter my Bosco) the Strega can do it but that machine just seems like a mismatch of componentry that is not really sure what it wants to be.


----------



## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

coffeechap said:


> Actually this about levers really as they are restricted in the volume of water that is possible to pass through a puck with one single action of the machine, unlike pump machines that will keep going until you stop them. The levers are set up traditionally and ergo will never be capable of a 2 oz shot due to the restricted water supply.
> 
> The op will never be able to pull the shot volumes he desires ( rightly or wrongly with an L1 or for that matter my Bosco) the Strega can do it but that machine just seems like a mismatch of componentry that is not really sure what it wants to be.


 OK, I didn't intend to start an argument here but my point is this: if you let the shot run to the end an LI will give a full double shot in volume (or very very close to it - I've just tried it out) but you wouldn't want to do that as the end of the shot tastes awful, just as it would on a pump machine.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

RoloD said:


> OK, I didn't intend to start an argument here but my point is this: if you let the shot run to the end an LI will give a full double shot in volume (or very very close to it - I've just tried it out) but you wouldn't want to do that as the end of the shot tastes awful, just as it would on a pump machine.


No argument intended, I guess this boils down to people's perception of when to stop the shot, I too pull my shots before the end of the pour, as the last parts of the extract are nasty. I haven't managed to get a full 2oz out of the Bosco group yet and according to reiss I should never be able to.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Right, so, action plan then! It I am dosing at 16 gms, then my ideal shot output over 25 to 27 seconds would be what? On the 60% rule, 16 divided by 60 gives you 26.66%, yet I thought 30% was the desired figure. If I am measuring output, and using a diametric tamper then the only variable is grind, and that is measured then by the above calculation of time over weight output?

So, what is the magic figure I am seeking


----------



## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

I am getting more than a little confused here - I wonder if someone can spell out an answer to something that I can't fathom.

I have a Rocket at the moment. Dosing 18 gm in a VST gives me a fluid ounce in each of two cups - it may not be technically correct, but it floats my boat taste-wise.

I'm seriously interested in an L1 - but am I understanding that with one, although I'd be using a lower dose, I'd only be pulling one ounce at a time, not two like I am with the Rocket?


----------



## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

vintagecigarman said:


> I have a Rocket at the moment. Dosing 18 gm in a VST gives me a fluid ounce in each of two cups - it may not be technically correct, but it floats my boat taste-wise.I'm seriously interested in an L1 - but am I understanding that with one, although I'd be using a lower dose, I'd only be pulling one ounce at a time, not two like I am with the Rocket?


 Your certainly could use an 18g dose, but I think you'd finding yourself running those two shots just shorter than an ounce each, as Reiss does in the video.

With your 2oz shot, is it well into blonding at the end of the extraction?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Having played around with 18grm dose, I've gone back to 16grm pulling 40-45ml from my lever before blonding. Think the flavour profile is less compressed from the lower dose. I would wonder what the point is of trying to extract an additional 15ml from the puck at the end of the extraction. What are you adding to the extraction - the puck has long given up its bounty?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Vintagecigarman - As Coffeechap said, 2 lever pulls are typically needed to get 60g in the cup(s). Lever machines have historically been used to pull 2x1oz shots.

dfk41 - Your dose & pour time are pretty much fixed, for the 60% target (I wouldn't refer to it as a "rule" per se, more a guide from the roaster as to how to best present that bean) you want 27g of output.

30% brew ratio target would be 53g in the cup. If your grind was right for 19% yield at 60% brew ratio (to suit the bean in question), 53g in the cup would have you way past 22% extraction and into bitter territory. If you ground for 19% yield at 30%/53g your espresso would be much weaker with a thinner body.

I would hazard a guess that "espresso" as described by Ernesto Illy (6.5g dose, 30-37g in the cup, 22% brew ratio, bitter-sweet taste) is aimed at being the high side of "normal" yield, if not actually overextracted by SCAE standards. Ristrettos have always had a following, a brew ratio of 44-50% will ideally get you in the SCAE box (just), hence why roasters looking to exploit their beans at the sweetspot (19% yield) are suggesting a 60% brew ratio.

This, I guess, is where perceived clashes lie. Espresso and the machines used to make them were designed for lower brew ratios & higher extraction yields. With the uptake of SCAE/SCAA standards, and a focus on 19-20% yields, it is usually necessary to pull shorter...the Italians, by and large, carry on regardless.

So to recap:

60%/1:1.67 brew ratio @ 16g = a target of 26.67g in the cup @ 19% yield, 3g of dissolved solids at a TDS of 11.4%

30%/1:3.33 brew ratio @ 16g = a target of 53.44g in the cup, probably a higher extraction yield, probably nearer 4g dissolved solids & 7-8% TDS.

It's confusing because brew ratio, TDS & yield are all referred to as "%" it's not always clear to which parameter we are referring, with so many "%"s flying around.

The other confusing thing is that weights & volumes are getting blurred in these threads: "ml" is volume, "g" is weight, but "fl oz" can be both (flick through the modes on your scales).


----------



## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I am dosing at 16 gms, then my ideal shot output over 25 to 27 seconds would be what? On the 60% rule, 16 divided by 60 gives you 26.66%, yet I thought 30% was the desired figure. If I am measuring output, and using a diametric tamper then the only variable is grind, and that is measured then by the above calculation of time over weight output?
> 
> So, what is the magic figure I am seeking


Honestly, there are no "magic" figures or 60% "rules." However, many people find that an espresso brew ratio of 60% usually gets them in the ballpark for a well-balanced cup. It's a guideline, not a rule.

60% espresso brew ratio means this: 16 gram dose divided by 60% = 16/0.6 = ~26.7 grams of beverage in your cup.

Espresso made from a particularly lightly-roasted bean is harder to extract and may require a "longer" shot (for example, a 50% brew ratio, or 32 grams of beverage from a 16 gram dose). Conversely, a very dark roasted bean has had its cellular structure degraded to the point where it's easier to extract, and a brew ratio of 75-100% might produce a better cup. But always, your taste buds must decide.

James Hoffmann had a couple of blog posts where he touched on this issue; they are well worth reading all the way through.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Blimey, what have I started! VintageCG, this is not aimed at Londinium machines but all levers. Why, because with a pump machine like your Rocket, water is forced through the puck from start to whenever you decide to end the shot, so in theory you could be pulling 4 ounces! The message seems to be quality over quantity, if I am picking things up correctly. i have found the standard basket on the L1 favours dosing at around 16 gms, and I am quite happy with the taste profile that brings when it works. I am now aiming for approximately 1 1/2 fluid ounces or say 40 mls, but until my new scales arrive I cannot measure output accurately. So, my cappuccino now, will be one shot of whatever comes out as long as it atstes ok I do not care about volume, and 2 ounces of milk and the same foam!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Here's a chart of brew ratios in % & 1:x (yield & TDS are assumed, given a perfect extraction, not a guarantee of espresso Nirvana!)...

  

Moka/Trad Normale/Lungo & Caffe Crema are rough guide/rule of thumb....one man's Normale is another's Lungo...but brew ratios, rather than named definitions, are less ambiguous.


----------



## redpig (Sep 25, 2012)

I'm a few days late, but I didn't see much backing for shot volume linked, so here I go









First off, the group in the Londinium I holds 60ml as confirmed by Reiss and others. That is without water in the puck. If you do not preinfuse for long, you will lose some water into the puck. This often results in ~40ml pulls with a double basket.

If you want the "full double" 60ml, you will need to preinfuse until the puck is relatively saturated. Alternatively, you can use a much deeper basket with the same dose. The deeper basket will provide more headroom which in turn can fill with more water than the 60ml that the group itself holds. Then preinfuse or not to further control the water volume. If you want even more water, you can pull the lever again ("Fellini move"), but I don't usually do this with my L1.

The same principle apply with older/smaller levers too. You shot volume is the group_volume+headspace+preinfusion_water-whatever_the_puck_absorbs. So a 30ml group will likely encourage

As to the Rocket, I had a Cellini Evo, and it'll just pump water through the puck until you tell it to stop. I've not missed that behavior at all in the move to the L1, and I'm happy it doesn't need multiple pulls! (If you watch the Cafe De.Ga videos on YouTube, you'll see Bosco machines pulling two singles at a time with a single pull. Some early videos before I got more acquainted with the L1





 ~40-50ml pulls.)

hth!


----------

