# Duo Temp Pro and water hardness



## pottolom (Jan 17, 2019)

Just bought a used DTP off the forum and although I haven't had chance to use it much yet, it's quite an impressive little machine so far.

One thing I'm not sure, though, is what to do about water hardness. Mine is "slightly hard" according to my water company:

Calcium (Ca) 52.5 mg/l

Chloride (Cl−) 14 mg/l

Nitrate (NO3) 3.9

Sodium (Na) 21

pH 7.7

mg/l as calcium is 52

mg/l as calcium carbonate is 130

Clarke 9.1

German 7.28

French 13

(Unfortunately they don't list any data for magnesium or bicarbonate).

The DTP I bought came with the slightly older filter holder (I believe there's now a newer version) that looks like this:









And takes filters that look like this:









The DTP manual for my version of the machine with this filter states that "The water filter provided helps to prevent scale build up which over time can affect the performance of your machine, potentially causing blockages and heating problems. Replacing the water filter every two months will reduce the mineral build up in the machine.If you live in a hard water area, we recommend you change the water filter more frequently."

Ideally, I do not want to use bottled water, basically because I don't want to start producing loads of plastic waste. The manual seems to suggest that these filters will reduce hardness, but when I read up online on this subject, I am a bit unconvinced as they do look very much like basic charcoal filters to me. Does anyone have any experience with these Sage filters at all?

The manual also recommends descaling with Sage's Descaler, although it doesn't state how often this needs to be done. I am a bit unsure about how regularly I need to descale if:

a) my water is "slightly hard" (one problem is that the lack of data on magnesium and bicarbonate means I can't calculate a scale deposition rate using Jim Schulman's guide)

and b) I am using the Sage filters.

Again, any advice gratefully received.


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## Quenteagle (Mar 14, 2018)

You are correct in the sense that the Sage filter does not do wonders when it comes to hard water. I have a DTP and live in London where water is hard. I quickly switched to Ashbeck bottles and have been very happy ever since. Cost is minimal and when it comes to plastic waster I live in a Borough where plastic bottles are fully recycled provided they are put in the right bin.

I descale every 6 months and I make on average 2 coffees a day but as mentioned above I only use Ashbeck bottles.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Maybe an answer is do you descale your kettle ? I don't think anyone can really calculate an accurate scaling rate especially as you have a thermoblock type machine. Your missing items are both soluble in water







so I would assume wash off if and when the build up.

Highest scaling rate will be when your using steam. Also brief periods when water boils off in the thermocoil.

What descaler to use crops up a lot on these machines. I've been inclined to stick with Sages as it contains some sulphamic acid however how much according to the % contents varies rather a lot to a point where there may be no point in including it. It's a more effective descaler than many others.

Thanks to Sage's crazy prices people buy other brands.

Back flush tablets - Puly Caff cleaning tablets - best stick to tablets as they block the hole in the disk as intended for part of the cleaning cycle.

Filters - same thing is available on Amazon and Ebay. Many people think that these do not really soften at all. More like active carbon filters.

Descale - People usually mention 2, only one that springs to mind is Puly Caff descaler. That one is generally thought to be safe on all materials. Some aren't.

How often? It's not much of a problem really so why not once a month.

I did try and find out what the hardness numbers relate to. I think it's total carbonate hardness so doesn't split temporary from permanent.

John

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## pottolom (Jan 17, 2019)

Actually, now that I've had a look at one of the official Sage filters, I don't think they are charcoal (even though they're the same size and shape as the standard charcoal ones available on Amazon etc.). The Amazon charcoal filters have a dark, gritty substance in them (presumably charcoal!) - the Sage filters once wet seem to expand and have something clearer and more jelly-like inside. So it looks to my untrained eye to be an entirely different kind of filter.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

pottolom said:


> Actually, now that I've had a look at one of the official Sage filters, I don't think they are charcoal (even though they're the same size and shape as the standard charcoal ones available on Amazon etc.). The Amazon charcoal filters have a dark, gritty substance in them (presumably charcoal!) - the Sage filters once wet seem to expand and have something clearer and more jelly-like inside. So it looks to my untrained eye to be an entirely different kind of filter.


Buy some hardness testing strips and find out. If they did soften the capacity would be limited.

John

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Quenteagle said:


> I quickly switched to Ashbeck bottles and have been very happy ever since. Cost is minimal and when it comes to plastic waster I live in a Borough where plastic bottles are fully recycled provided they are put in the right bin.
> 
> I descale every 6 months and I make on average 2 coffees a day but as mentioned above I only use Ashbeck bottles.


Better to not use plastic bottles if it can be avoided.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> Better to not use plastic bottles if it can be avoided.


Most people can recycle them somewhere nearby. Sounds like dear old gov is going to do something soon which will tend to make sure that they are. Tax - it's been done in some countries or so the telly tells me. I'd hope that they do it in a way that all plastics are recycled and not simply sent some where else in the world. As recycling is inevitable there is plenty of capacity for doing it around that isn't currently fully utilised. Inevitable - currently a world without plastics would leave some rather difficult problems to solve. They are all over the place.

Of course the media concentrates on pollution - not that it needn't happen. Bad news is always preferred to good.

John

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> Most people can recycle them somewhere nearby. Sounds like dear old gov is going to do something soon which will tend to make sure that they are. Tax - it's been done in some countries or so the telly tells me. I'd hope that they do it in a way that all plastics are recycled and not simply sent some where else in the world. As recycling is inevitable there is plenty of capacity for doing it around that isn't currently fully utilised. Inevitable - currently a world without plastics would leave some rather difficult problems to solve. They are all over the place.
> 
> Of course the media concentrates on pollution - not that it needn't happen. Bad news is always preferred to good.
> 
> ...


Ironically, one of the best things to send to landfill is plastic since it doesn't biodegrade & give off gasses like methane.

The only reson the UK bothers to collect it for recycling is because the infrastructure (even if that includes sending it to the far east in container ships that would otherwise be pretty empty) had been set up before the EU directives changed.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Ironically, one of the best things to send to landfill is plastic since it doesn't biodegrade & give off gasses like methane.
> 
> The only reson the UK bothers to collect it for recycling is because the infrastructure (even if that includes sending it to the far east in container ships that would otherwise be pretty empty) had been set up before the EU directives changed.


Some plastics do biodegrade.







It was possible to tell when our local CoOp needed to get a fresh lot of bags in - stuff would go straight through. Also the stuff many use on 3D printers which I think is corn based.

John

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## pottolom (Jan 17, 2019)

ajohn said:


> Buy some hardness testing strips and find out. If they did soften the capacity would be limited.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Hmm. Might do that actually.

Obviously, I'd have to test before (i.e. water in the tank) and after, which would be water exiting the group head (or steam wand set to hot water).

Because the water in my "after" condition would have been heated, would it potentially give me a false reading as some of the minerals may have left the water during heating? Or would this effect be pretty small?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

pottolom said:


> Hmm. Might do that actually.
> 
> Obviously, I'd have to test before (i.e. water in the tank) and after, which would be water exiting the group head (or steam wand set to hot water).
> 
> Because the water in my "after" condition would have been heated, would it potentially give me a false reading as some of the minerals may have left the water during heating? Or would this effect be pretty small?


Test the water before it goes in the machine. That's what all the standards are based on.


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## pottolom (Jan 17, 2019)

MWJB said:


> Test the water before it goes in the machine. That's what all the standards are based on.


The filter is an "inline" one that sits at the bottom of the tank. I can't really think of a realistic way of testing it pre-machine but post-filter.


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