# Duo temp pro issue, tried everything.



## apostolis14 (11 mo ago)

Hello everyone, i am a new member to the forum and fairly new to the espresso world. I have invested in a basic home set up and ive done a lot of reading about extraction and i am familiar with what is expected from a good shot. I know what yield, ratio, dosages, etc etc are so feel free to use that terminology. Ive also watched a lot of YT tutorials trying to perfect my technique.

Set up:
Sage Duo temp pro (bought new, less than 6 months ago)
Eureka Mignon Manuale (older version, bought second hand but new burrs)
2in1 distributor and palm tamper

I was using the machine for 4 months without problems, getting good shots, learned a lot of stuff about tasting etc until very recently where it started to give me a very annoying problem which i cant seem to be able to solve. I am using non pressurized double basket and ive tried doses from 16 to 19gr always aiming for a 2:1 ratio using a scale, and only checking the timing for reference reasons. No matter how fine or coarse i grind, or what dose i use the shot ALWAYS channels at the exact same spot, between 2 and 3 o clock in the pf, where the actual hole for water is, behind the shower screen. All the shots turn white after a few seconds and the taste is just boring, sometimes even terrible. I ve tried to WDT, all kind of different distribution techniques etc. I ve tried very fresh beans ( 3 days old, too fresh i know), 10 days old, and even 7 months old just to make sure its not bean related. The problem started occuring after i cleaned the machine with the tablet provided by sage and removed the shower screen to clean. Ive tried to tighten/untighten the fixing screw of the shower screen, in case this was the problem but without any difference. One thing i found interesting is the fact that i cant choke the machine anymore, although i was able to do it in the past with the same set up. It will start dripping and then after a few seconds of pumping the full 15bars it will channel like crazy. So i am thinking it might be pressure related and not actually my fault. Unfortunately the duo temp pro gives you no control over pressure, temperature etc so i am really lost and dissappointed. Any help will be really appreciated. Ill try to add some photos later in the day of the puck after extraction. (note that the puck doesnt touch the shower screen before extraction, so enough space exist)

Should i contact Sage, to check if the pressure is correct?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Few points if I may

You dont need control over temp and pressure to make good espresso , sage does what it does.

Do the shots really go translucent after a few seconds, no matter what the Grind or the dose >i cant think that the machine would be capable to doing this , in my mind it would be a relations between grind, coffee, distribution.

To rule out the grinder , can you take it somewhere and see if it makes a decent shot on another Machine.

Puck after extraction on these machines tell us very little , does water come out of the machine relatively evenly with no of locked in .

What would help is a clip of an extraction


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## apostolis14 (11 mo ago)

Ill post examples of shots when i am home later today. 
Ill use a dosage of 17,5 grams and will try to choke the machine, working my way from there.
Do you count the pre infusion in the timing? Different opinions exist on that matter.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

apostolis14 said:


> Ill post examples of shots when i am home later today.
> Ill use a dosage of 17,5 grams and will try to choke the machine, working my way from there.
> Do you count the pre infusion in the timing? Different opinions exist on that matter.


 Time is from when you start the pump ( so including pre infusion.)


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## apostolis14 (11 mo ago)

Ok so after a lot of fiddling around, I think I found one of the reasons this happens. I use a 2 in 1 distributor and tamper. I ve set the depth of the tamper a lot more than the razor tool, and maybe this affected the brewing. Although I didn't seem to solve the problem, I managed to choke the machine with a 17,5gr dose and then started from there to grind coarser. All the shots are channelling though. See attached videos. Excuse my poor lighting.

https://youtube.com/shorts/BhUWPK-JQEs?feature=share

https://youtube.com/shorts/_XXzZbWxTQg?feature=share


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## apostolis14 (11 mo ago)

I am absolutely lost, I've tried everything, from 16gr to 19, brewing time from 25 to 48sec and EVERYTHING channels in the exact same way, as soon as the pressure ramps up to 15bars. I'll try to find someone to try my grinder so I can rule this out and then I'll contact Sage. It's started out of nothing, without changing my routine or anything else, so I am coming to the point where I think the machine overshoots pressure. I can't believe I was doing fine for 4 months and then suddenly I became unable to pull one decent for two weeks.


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## Mark70 (Jan 12, 2020)

Those shot timings look fine normally you would aim for between 25 and 35 seconds and adjust to taste.

Just a thought I have a Decent DE1 and a few owners have turned the shower screen into various positions to get the best dispersion possible. Can the shower screen be turned on the Sage? May be worth a try if this is post you cleaning it


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

apostolis14 said:


> I am absolutely lost, I've tried everything, from 16gr to 19, brewing time from 25 to 48sec and EVERYTHING channels in the exact same way, as soon as the pressure ramps up to 15bars. I'll try to find someone to try my grinder so I can rule this out and then I'll contact Sage. It's started out of nothing, without changing my routine or anything else, so I am coming to the point where I think the machine overshoots pressure. I can't believe I was doing fine for 4 months and then suddenly I became unable to pull one decent for two weeks.


 How do you know it's channelling?

You don't have a naked PF so are you just going on the puck?

As others have said, and you know, the sage has one outlet hole from the boiler to the group, when the screen is nice and clean you might get a spurt from here. Try pulling a shot without the PF in and look. You will see it comes from one spot. 
Same on all sages.

The best way I have found to solve this is to use an aeropress filter on top of the puck, cut to size. or get a mesh screen.This stops the spurt disturbing the puck.

The sage's can be great machines, but this is a small design flaw.


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## apostolis14 (11 mo ago)

I know it's channelling by the colour of the flow. I can barely see any dark coffee pour for a second or two of my shot before everything gets blonde, thin and tasteless. Even when I try to over extract on purpose, (eg 20gr, 1:2 ratio, 48sec) the colour remain the same and the flow is uneven. I used a small piece of aluminium foil behind the showerscreen where the outlet is located to help water distribution but didn't help. Checked also my grinders burr alignment and they were fine. I already contacted Sage, and happened to speak with a very friendly agent who really took the time to understand the issue and we are in open communication about what might cause the problem. I'll keep the thread updated for future reference.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

apostolis14 said:


> I know it's channelling by the colour of the flow. I can barely see any dark coffee pour for a second or two of my shot before everything gets blonde, thin and tasteless. Even when I try to over extract on purpose, (eg 20gr, 1:2 ratio, 48sec) the colour remain the same and the flow is uneven. I used a small piece of aluminium foil behind the showerscreen where the outlet is located to help water distribution but didn't help. Checked also my grinders burr alignment and they were fine. I already contacted Sage, and happened to speak with a very friendly agent who really took the time to understand the issue and we are in open communication about what might cause the problem. I'll keep the thread updated for future reference.


FYI You wont be over extracting at a 1:2 ratio. But I don’t know what’s causing your issue here .


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## apostolis14 (11 mo ago)

Isn't 2:1 at 48 sec considered over extraction? I am confused now 😅


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

apostolis14 said:


> Isn't 2:1 at 48 sec considered over extraction? I am confused now 😅


Extraction is measured with a Refractometear to give a yield , with a 2 for 1 ratio it is highly unlikely it wil be classed as over extraction By these terms. Used to be 22% ey with conventional equipment like you have. 
People seem to think bitter = over extraction this is not the case , bitterness can be a result of many different factors and taste and extraction are not linear. By this I mean that under extraction isnt always sour and over extraction isn’t always bitter, James Hoffman refers to the double hump For Example


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

In your first post You talk about channeling happening in the same place each time in the puck , we all assumed as a result you have a naked pf. I presume you are making this assumption based on looking at the puck post shot? Which tells you nothing about how the shot has extracted . You may well be experiencing channeling but you need a naked pf to know, 
All the symptoms you are describing to me , would normally lead me to saying you have a an Isue some where between the coffee you are using and the grinder and the basket prep. But again I am making assumptions based on limited information some of which I have already assumed and am incorrect one.


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## apostolis14 (11 mo ago)

The main reason I think it's channelling, and I might be wrong calling it that, is the colour flow of the shot and my taste. I get acceptable results when it comes to yield compared to timing, but the actual colour of the shot is 90% white or tiger striped. Finally the taste is boring, bitter without any flavour notes. The fact that I am doing absolutely everything I can, I've changed all of the parameters (although one at a time) without any luck is worrying me. Plus the fact that I was doing fine for a few months before this.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> In your first post You talk about channeling happening in the same place each time in the puck , we all assumed as a result you have a naked pf. I presume you are making this assumption based on looking at the puck post shot? Which tells you nothing about how the shot has extracted . You may well be experiencing channeling but you need a naked pf to know,
> All the symptoms you are describing to me , would normally lead me to saying you have a an Isue some where between the coffee you are using and the grinder and the basket prep. But again I am making assumptions based on limited information some of which I have already assumed and am incorrect one.


I agree. I'd personally be looking at the grinder.

When was the last time it was cleaned out?


apostolis14 said:


> The main reason I think it's channelling, and I might be wrong calling it that, is the colour flow of the shot and my taste. I get acceptable results when it comes to yield compared to timing, but the actual colour of the shot is 90% white or tiger striped. Finally the taste is boring, bitter without any flavour notes. The fact that I am doing absolutely everything I can, I've changed all of the parameters (although one at a time) without any luck is worrying me. Plus the fact that I was doing fine for a few months before this.


What beans are you actually using?

The duo temp can run a bit low on temp (mine did) so that could be the issue your shots are a bit flat


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## apostolis14 (11 mo ago)

Grinder has been cleaned twice since the problem started, I even checked burr alignment and it's good. I've used a Costa Rican blend 5days old roast date, Guatemalan blend two days old (too fresh, I know) now I am using a commercial blend of a friends coffee shop, the same they work in the shop which is two weeks old. Problem is present with all of them! I always purge approximately 150ml of water through pf and grouphead before pulling a shot and. I even checked flatness of tamper just to be sure.

Thanks for all the help guys, it's really appreciated and trust me I try all of your suggestions! I ve been questioning my technique, equipment and beans but it looks like nothing helps. On my way to get some different beans and Ill let you know.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

apostolis14 said:


> Grinder has been cleaned twice since the problem started, I even checked burr alignment and it's good. I've used a Costa Rican blend 5days old roast date, Guatemalan blend two days old (too fresh, I know) now I am using a commercial blend of a friends coffee shop, the same they work in the shop which is two weeks old. Problem is present with all of them! I always purge approximately 150ml of water through pf and grouphead before pulling a shot and. I even checked flatness of tamper just to be sure.
> 
> Thanks for all the help guys, it's really appreciated and trust me I try all of your suggestions! I ve been questioning my technique, equipment and beans but it looks like nothing helps. On my way to get some different beans and Ill let you know.


why are you or hung so much water through the group , low temp will not help extraction at all.
as Tom said ,nearly all the variables to do with channeling sit between the coffee used , grinder And the barista. 
your machine might be over pressured meaning it’s fracturing the puck , but a Fractured puck could also be a result of too fine a grind and basket prep. 
as an aside from all of this , a rigid adherence to a 1:2 ratio isn’t a road to tasty coffee , but that’s by the by at the mokwnt .
stop flushing so much Water through , defo use coffee at least 10 days past roast , you wont learn alot form using cofee 2 days past roast.


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## apostolis14 (11 mo ago)

Thanks for the advice, although I think I am repeating myself. I've tried different coffee roast dates just to be sure thats not the problem. Also tried different dosages and grinds to remove this from the equation. I changed the ratios, pulled 1:3 in 29secs and the flow of the shot is still the same. Changed my puck preparation, did WDT, used a distribution tool, a palm tamper, tried with or without flushing the grouphead and still the flow remains EXACTLY the same! It's not that I don't try, but literally I've ran out of ideas!


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## apostolis14 (11 mo ago)

@Mrboots2u it was never my intention to be rude, don't get me wrong! I am sorry if I came through as such. I bought some new beans roasted 17th of February and I'll try those. I also contacted Sage customer support and they suggested taking one of their 1 on 1 workshops, although I don't think this will help. I might try another grinder if I can get my hands on one.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

No offence taken, if you have the chance to take a one on one workshop why not . Nothing to lose . 
Hope you get to the root of your problmes , a naked pf would defo help and I would you dont need to flush that much water through the group ( its not a hx machine (


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## apostolis14 (11 mo ago)

I did the workshop and the guy from Sage didn't observe anything wrong with my technique or routine. He suggested contacting customer service again because it's really not a common a problem. I stopped flushing and I also opted for higher dosage and ratio in order to extract a bit more flavour. Mediocrity is the best I can get out of my equipment at the moment. So frustrating. I'll keep the thread updated for future reference.


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## apostolis14 (11 mo ago)

Another update, with even more confusing results. Sage provided an amazing customer service and replaced the machine. New one came, started using it, EXACTLY the same behaviour as the previous one. Blondening of shots fast, a bit of uneven poor, blunt taste. So now I think my only option is the grinder, which was bought second hand and the guy told me he has changed burrs. Maybe he never did, and these are the old ones, therefore grinding uneven? Any thoughts? It's a relatively cheap expense of 35€ so maybe it's worth a try?


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