# Massive inconsistencies.



## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Ok guys, I need some help a lot.

Setup; gaggia classic and ascaso innova.

Current beans; rave Italian about 10 days old.

Yesterday, I finished drinking coffee and my grinder was dialled in to pull 30g in 25s.

Today, the first cup I brew, 37g in 25s, ok, so I expect a shift as beans age and bring my grinder a turn tighter ready for next time.

So, I came back about 30mins ago, dose, grind, pull aaaaaaaand; nothing.

40 seconds and an output of about 3g.

Ok, so, adjust loser, brush the grinder chute to clean any retention, grind and pull again.

Aaaand, 7g out.

And this has been a pretty much consistent occurrence. Yesterday was the same and the day before.

I have had my beans open since Monday and already used about 250g on maybe 3 or 4 drinks.

Does anyone have any idea what it is?

The burrs on my grinder were changed about 2kg ago, but I don't see why this would make my grinder consistently pull shots which are 25g lighter than a previous session.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Simple things to check:

> Are you single dosing and weighing in/out the grinder?

> Has the classic been backflushed recently?

> Is you tamp consistent? No new tamper introduced?

Other potential issues:

> Is there any play in the burr carriers of the grinder?

> Have you checked the brew pressure on the Classic?

These sorts of issues are almost always human error / bad practice, just need to identify what stage of the process that is.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

forzajuve said:


> Simple things to check:
> 
> > Are you single dosing and weighing in/out the grinder?
> 
> ...


I don't discount that it's my fault, I just don't know where the fault is.

The classic is new to me, I have has it maybe just over 2 weeks, but it is second hand.

The tamper and basket (vst 15g) are also new.

As of now I have no idea what the brew pressure is, but I will get around to getting a gauge to check in the coming weeks.

There shouldn't be any play on the burrs as I just installed a new drive shaft and gear into the grinder.

I am noticing however, that knocking the puck out is very difficult and there is that characteristic cement like buildup in the bottom of the basket when grind or tamp is too high.

In regards to tamp though, I only use the weight of the tamper + 5 or 6lb of pressure, as I really have no idea what 30lb is.

Grinding courser improves flow a lot (5 or 6 quarter turns loser produces 45g instead of 6 or 7) so I'm at a loss.

The obvious suspect is tamp, but I played with my pressure and it didn't make much difference.


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## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

I haven't had my classic long either and have been using the same beans. I found the same problem with the puck but only when the grind was too fine. When the grind was courser the puck came out cleanly in one. I'm sure others will be able to offer better advice than I can as I'm still learning. However, it's not going to do much harm to grind a little courser and tamp harder. I just had a go with my brothers click tamp mat and was surprised at how hard I had to push for 30lb.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

c_squared said:


> I haven't had my classic long either and have been using the same beans. I found the same problem with the puck but only when the grind was too fine. When the grind was courser the puck came out cleanly in one. I'm sure others will be able to offer better advice than I can as I'm still learning. However, it's not going to do much harm to grind a little courser and tamp harder. I just had a go with my brothers click tamp mat and was surprised at how hard I had to push for 30lb.


I didnt set it to 30lb, just to the pressure I like.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

You two are brothers?


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> You two are brothers?


Yeah, both with classics!


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## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

Neill said:


> I didnt set it to 30lb, just to the pressure I like.


Ah, scratch what I said then, I have no idea what 30lb is either. What I've been doing though, because I have been dosing 18g and got the grinder dialled in I have been taking note of where the tamper finishes up in the basket and use that as a visual guide as to how consistent my tamp pressure is. I appreciate this might not help much until you find that desired output though.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

c_squared said:


> Ah, scratch what I said then, I have no idea what 30lb is either. What I've been doing though, because I have been dosing 18g and got the grinder dialled in I have been taking note of where the tamper finishes up in the basket and use that as a visual guide as to how consistent my tamp pressure is. I appreciate this might not help much until you find that desired output though.


I do the same with the tamper and the side of the basket and try to tamp to a particular point.

Mmm. How much are the mats?

I don't see my tamping being so inconsistent that I get over 30g out put difference though...

In the first place, I hardly tamp...

Maybe the classic just doesn't like the fine grind.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Kyle548 said:


> I do the same with the tamper and the side of the basket and try to tamp to a particular point.
> 
> Mmm. How much are the mats?
> 
> ...


http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/espresso-gear-attento-click-tamping-mat

I only bought one after a few years just to make sure I ruled out one variable. I find some coffees are easier to get the same everytime and others are much more sensitive to small changes in technique.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Neill said:


> http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/espresso-gear-attento-click-tamping-mat
> 
> I only bought one after a few years just to make sure I ruled out one variable. I find some coffees are easier to get the same everytime and others are much more sensitive to small changes in technique.


Yikes, 30 quid...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Yep not cheap, practice on your bath room scales.....


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Guess I'm going to need to loosen my grind quite a lot.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Sounds like you need to grind coarser first and foremost. If you grind too fine you can choke the machine or even fracture the puck which may give a desired output/time but will be a terrible shot.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

forzajuve said:


> Sounds like you need to grind coarser first and foremost. If you grind too fine you can choke the machine or even fracture the puck which may give a desired output/time but will be a terrible shot.


If I grind coarser and tamp harder the puck will have a higher integrity?

To be honest I would expect a finer grind to produce a more cohesive puck.

I guess if the puck is harder, it has to break to allow water, which can't be compressed, to flow though.

Actually, it makes sense that the puck might be fracturing as I'm getting blonding round about the 20 seconds mark.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Kyle548 said:


> I do the same with the tamper and the side of the basket and try to tamp to a particular point.
> 
> Mmm. How much are the mats?
> 
> ...


Kyle,

My classic is fine with a fine grind and does what I wish with it, maybe you managed to get something slightly out of kilter when you put the new parts in your grinder, I never had any of those sort of problems when I was using my MC2 which is more or less the same as your grinder. Your new burrs will also take some time to bed in as well. Tamping with a machine like a Classic can make a much bigger difference that with the better machines, but consistency of tamp rather than obsessing over 30 lbs of pressure is much better, I would try as others have said grinding a little courser and tamping harder, also go back and double check everything in your grinder is as it should be.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Is there any evidence of channeling with the shot? Holes in the puck or even better are you issuing a bottomless portafilter?

It maybe just a distribution issue and the previous shots were ground too fine but were channelling and creating shorter shots? Just my 2 pence worth. I had similar issues till I got a naked PF and then saw how bad my shots were.

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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Is there any evidence of channeling with the shot? Holes in the puck or even better are you issuing a bottomless portafilter?
> 
> It maybe just a distribution issue and the previous shots were ground too fine but were channelling and creating shorter shots? Just my 2 pence worth. I had similar issues till I got a naked PF and then saw how bad my shots were.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


I don't like using a bottomless because they tend to spray.

I have an open spout though and I can observe the shot blonding at about 20s on some shots.

I don't think it's an issue with distribution though as I grind into a container then I stir my PF.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Kyle548 said:


> I don't like using a bottomless because they tend to spray.
> 
> I have an open spout though and I can observe the shot blonding at about 20s on some shots.
> 
> I don't think it's an issue with distribution though as I grind into a container then I stir my PF.


If your shots are spraying with a bottomless pf then you definitely do have issues with either your tamp,distribution or grind. Another thing worth bearing in mind is that although it seems counter intuitive sometimes having the grind set too fine can actually cause channelling through "weaker" spots in the puck.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Charliej said:


> If your shots are spraying with a bottomless pf then you definitely do have issues with either your tamp,distribution or grind. Another thing worth bearing in mind is that although it seems counter intuitive sometimes having the grind set too fine can actually cause channelling through "weaker" spots in the puck.


I don't mean mega spraying, but even with a perfectly formed cone and no channeling, more often than not you get one or two flickers of stray coffee.

And those times you do get it wrong, well that's another story.

Not to mention how the crema is usually more fluffy if you use a bottomless.

For whatever reason I just don't like using it....

Anyway, I'm experimenting with a coarser grind.

Just need to get it dialled in for now....


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

It does sound like a distribution issue.

What grinder do you have? Can you try grinding directly into the PF basket and stirring in there.

If you search for WDT technique in YouTube you should see a clip on it. It's an American clip (but don't let that put you off).

If you're still having the same issue try videoing the shots you're getting with the pre prep

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