# Best water temperature for dark roast



## Usagercoffee (Jul 31, 2021)

Hi guys,

I am new to this platform but love the community here. I have a question that I am not finding a consistent answer to.

"WHAT WATER TEMPERATURE TO USE FOR DARK ROATS?"

In most online forums I see the mention of 96ºC but when I measure boiling water (using a Russel Hobbs Kettle) i only get about 93ºC max. Then in posts from the great James Hoffmann, he talks about going all the way down to 85ºC or even lower for dark roasts.

What do you guys use and how to make sure my brew is not over or under extracted according to the temperature?
🙃🙃


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Usagercoffee - welcome to the forum. Rule of thumb says the darker the roast, the colder the temperature required. But there's more to it than water temperature: there's pre-infusion, there's dose, there's flow, there's grind, there's ratios.

96C seems too high, sometimes even so for a light roast.

forget about "the de-facto" temperature and let your tastebuds guide you. Aim for a ratio of 2:1 (e.g: 18g, 36g out in approx 30s, depending on machine, starting at a 94C temperature) and let your taste buds guide you. If it's too bitter, decrease the temperature until you find the sweet spot, similarly increase the temperature if it's sour.


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## Usagercoffee (Jul 31, 2021)

Thanks for the info. I will definitely let my taste buds do the job my brain cannot  
Do you have a particular brewing method to recommend for dark roasts?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Usagercoffee said:


> Thanks for the info. I will definitely let my taste buds do the job my brain cannot
> Do you have a particular brewing method to recommend for dark roasts?


 Which machine have you? And, which coffee are you talking about here?


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## Usagercoffee (Jul 31, 2021)

I currently use a simple french press with the dark roast from the guys at Morris Black Goat. The coffee always tastes really great. I recently bought a Russel Hobbs kettle and ONLY recently I started getting some bitter flavours, so i was wondering if the water could have anything to do with that.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I see. Well... I can't help you with that. 🙂 - I drink exclusively espresso, so no clue about French press. But given you will steep for a while - If you follow Hoffman's methodologies - I'm not sure the water temperature matters too much. The few times I did it I just boiled the kettle, let it sit for a minute and made a French Press.

But again, you have a fancy kettle, so you can try and let your taste buds guide you. Remember, change only one variable at a time. So, if you change temperature, make sure everything else remains exactly the same. (steeping time, dose, prep, grind size, etc, etc).

Good luck.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Usagercoffee Is this coffee pre ground or do you buy beans and grind them yourself. @MWJB is the resident brewed coffee expert but I do not think on a the French Press method, the temp of the water is that important. Perhaps you could tell us exactly how you prepare a brew including dose and water volume


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## Usagercoffee (Jul 31, 2021)

@dfk41

I actually grind the beans myself using my (couple of years old) Niche Zero. My process is pretty simple:



Grind about 30g (approximately) the beans coarse/medium (apparently best for french press)


Add to the press


 Boil London tap (E1) water in my kettle then pour straight into press about 300mL (again approximately). Temperature measured using a TDS meter is about 92-93C.


Stir for 5 seconds with spoon + let rest for about 5 to 10 minutes (time it takes me to check my emails)


Filter and enjoy


Did you get anything particular from that? 😜


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Usagercoffee - Last time I used a FP I used this method:


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## Usagercoffee (Jul 31, 2021)

Yes, I think I know my mistake - he mentions 60-70g per L aka 21g per 300mL. With my recipe I am slightly over that with my 30g per 300mL. That might explain the bitter taste but cannot explain why my brews used to taste great without a kettle and taste bitter with a kettle. I will try it out tomorrow morning and keep you updated @MediumRoastSteam 🙃


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Usagercoffee It might also be worth, trying some bottled water, possibly in a dedicated kettle. I doubt the London water will be helping anything!


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## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

Agree

The biggest improvement in all of my coffee making came from stopping using London tapwater both for espresso and filter coffee


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## Usagercoffee (Jul 31, 2021)

@dfk41 @TomR

Yes I think it is a good, idea. What do you guys use?

(I'm looking for something relatively affordable and small since my kitchen is packed with stuff).


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Usagercoffee A lot of us use the OSmio Zero. The current forum offer has just finished unfortunately. The Zero produces Reverse osmosis water but in a table top unit, about the size of a pc tower. The advantages are it strips everything out of the water that you would want it to. And in the long term, is a better solution than buying and lugging bottled water!

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/60733-osmio-water-offers-until-july-2021/?do=embed


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

If you're tasting bitterness you could be over-extracting as you're brewing a darker roast.

Although I brew with an Aeropress and V60 the same principles should apply.

As you have already said try a 21g dose for 300g of water at 70g/L for a darker roast.

Try a temperature in late 80's - 88/89C?

It's also possible you're grinding too fine for a dark roast - maybe try slightly coarser? This is the hardest to gauge and really is trial and error unfortunately. Of course go by taste.

As has been mentioned already it's worthwhile trying bottled water, even if you use the same kettle. I use waitrose lockhills (essential) bottled water for brewing as I also use it for my espresso machine. I also live in London!


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## Usagercoffee (Jul 31, 2021)

@dfk41 I have looked into RO in the past but many people seem to complain about three things.



The waste water


The lack of minerals in RO water


The amount of filters to change


What do you think, are these good arguments not to buy the system? I have a bit in my savings account and could theoretically buy one of these systems, but I am hesitant. There is also the Peak filter I saw a couple of weeks ago. Is it comparable with RO?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Usagercoffee For brewed coffee, an RO system might be excessive. I say this, as when you have an espresso machine siting perhaps all day with water approaching boiling, it is very easy for parts to become scaled up causing further expense. The waste water (1 litre in 5) does not bother me because it is a by product of the system. Losing the minerals is what I want to further protect my expensive equipment. Filters.....without them you cannot operate, but......let us say living in London and owning a certain type of lever coffee machine. They type of lever means that due to the way it is constructed, if the boiler becomes scaled up (and it will within 6 months in London) you either have to be good with the spanners as you will have to strip it down, remove the boiler and soak it in relevant fluids to remove the scale, then rebuild and since you have it stripped you may as well fit all seals, or pay an engineer to do it......or buy an Osmio Zero and forget about it all!

PS The Peak is a load of shite!


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## Usagercoffee (Jul 31, 2021)

@HVL87

Noted, thanks for the tips. I think I will test the temperature and grinding a little coarser tonight, I got excited to test it out. I will keep you guys updated.

I will vary the temperature by letting it cool down after the kettle turns off for maybe 30 seconds to 1 min? I will monitor the temperature with my cheap TDS meter. Hopefully it is accurate enough.


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## Usagercoffee (Jul 31, 2021)

@dfk41 I understand so the main benefit with RO water is that you prevent scale from building up. It would be interesting to compare how RO water impacts the taste of the brew. Do you notice any difference? I've done some research and apparently according to James Hoffmann the ideal water should be bottles water. Or demin water with added minerals like Epsom salt and Baking powder.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Usagercoffee Each to his own! Not a big fan of your beloved Hoffman. He has a monetised Youtube channel and therefore needs to be reaching out to generate traffic to his channel to make money. He rarely does anything in depth and therefore the conclusions he reaches are iffy. By that I mean, an in-depth review of a coffee machine may take 3 to 6 months to live with it and learn it. there are loads of times he has reviewed things and then been found to not even have known it had certain features.

Next is the ability of the individual to have taste buds good enough to detect these changes. Sure, start off with RO water and add minerals back in testing and tasting on the way. Would not work for me as I struggle to differentiate Kippers from cheese........but I am all in favour of experimentation and at least with bottled or RO water you get consistency


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Usagercoffee said:


> Baking powder.


 Baking *Soda*! They are different things!


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

Usagercoffee said:


> What do you guys use and how to make sure my brew is not over or under extracted according to the temperature?


 Depending on the roast level my recipe can change pretty dramatically. I find the size of the french press matters quite a bit, so I'll always use a 3 cup french press when I'm only brewing a cup for myself. I use something similar to the James Hoffmann method, but I don't scoop the grinds out at the end of brewing, I just plunge down slowly, then leave it to rest for around 3-4mins. The following are examples of what my recipe might look like based off roast level:

Lighter Roast: Finer grind size, 15g of coffee to 300g of water, water at boiling point, 4mins brew time.

Darker Roast: Coaser grind size, 12g of coffee to 400g of water, water below 90C, 3mins brew time.

These recipes are very subjective. I prefer a lower dose than most recipes on the internet. Also I'm mostly grinding above the 50 mark on the Niche, a lot of people prefer a far finer grind size. Best thing to do is experiment a bit for yourself and find what you enjoy.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Usagercoffee said:


> @dfk41
> 
> I actually grind the beans myself using my (couple of years old) Niche Zero. My process is pretty simple:
> 
> ...


 I used to use a french press but moved to a Sowden. the technique was pretty much identical.

Pre-heat by filling with boiled water.

Dose coffee for a 1:18 ratio coffee:water.

Boil kettle again. Pour over grinds, give a swirl to mix and catch any on the sides of the filter/glass. (temp would be just off the boil)

For the Sowden you just leave it for 45 minutes. For the French Press it was a bit more involving. I can't remember the exact process but fairly certain left it for about 5 minutes and then plunge half way down to push the crust under water and then left for a further 40 minutes.

I don't think water temperature is particularly important. It will cool so rapidly even if you pour while the kettle is still boiling that you're not above 95c for more than a few seconds, if at all.

Increasing brew ratio significantly may remove the bitterness. The bitterness is probably not because of over extraction.


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## Usagercoffee (Jul 31, 2021)

@MarkHB

Thanks for the recipe, I will try it tonight. I am now definitely sure that I have been overdosing my brews. Quick question, how do you control the temperature of your water? Is there a better way than using a thermometer or TDS meter (with temperature probe)? My FP is limited to 400mL so I guess I need to buy a bigger one.


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

Usagercoffee said:


> Thanks for the recipe, I will try it tonight. I am now definitely sure that I have been overdosing my brews. Quick question, how do you control the temperature of your water? Is there a better way than using a thermometer or TDS meter (with temperature probe)? My FP is limited to 400mL so I guess I need to buy a bigger one.


 You can try my recipe but I'm not sure you'll enjoy it given that you have been using a far higher dose. I would maybe start with one like JH recommends and see how you like it.

I use a stove top gooseneck kettle with a thermometer built into the lid. It's a brilliant thing to have, I wouldn't want to be without it.

That's the size of french press I use, so you'll only need a bigger one if you're brewing for more than one cup at a time. That, or you want a really big cup of coffee!


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## Usagercoffee (Jul 31, 2021)

@MarkHB

I tried your dark roast recipe and the bitterness is definitely completely gone! That said, a little light for my taste buds to be completely honest. Not having the thermometer on my kettle makes tracking temperature much harder and I found a good gooseneck kettle similar to yours on amazon. I'll get one tonight.


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## Usagercoffee (Jul 31, 2021)

@Rob i used @MarkHB today with his ratio being 1:20, slightly less concentrated than yours. I will give yours a shot tomorrow. Is investing in a Sowden really worth it? I am no coffee expert by no stretch of the imagination, so would the benefits be in terms of taste be worth it?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I'm not sure there will be much difference. The Sowden keeps temperature very well and is the simplest thing you can use, it's also very easy to clean which is the main reason for going for one over am insulated french press (no plunger to dismantle and grinds to clear out from the mesh). If the press isn't insulated then differences between it and Sowden might be more significant.


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

Usagercoffee said:


> That said, a little light for my taste buds to be completely honest.


 Yeah it can be a little too light even for me at times. I'll usually up the dose over the lifetime of the beans. Also I find as the beans age, less grinds will float at the top of the press, which is apparently not a good thing for extraction, so I sometimes put a hole in the middle of the bed of grinds and pour the water right through that hole until I've reached my target weight. I find that usually helps the grinds float to the top.


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