# How helpful are espresso recipes from roasters?



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Hi folks,

We often get asked for a recipe which I totally understand. Who wants to waste the good stuff searching for a sweet spot right?

The problem is this for us though -

A - I tend to like to keep variables to minimum when I am assessing a coffee and as such I prepare pretty much all coffee we roast to 1:2 28-32 and I will use experience to adjust temperature depending on roast profile. Obviously if I am preparing for myself later on I often change things up, but this often comes down to personal preference.

B - Nobody is likely to be using the same equipment as we do. We all know that even if all things are equal if you just switch out the grinder or machine the taste will change by a significant amount. And this is before we get in to the differences in puck prep, coffee age, humidity, environmental temperature etc.

These things leave us with a bit of a conundrum as we want to help people produce the best coffee they can but I feel translating my experience on to the website is going to be almost irrelevant and a heck of a lots of times it is going to say 1:2 28-32 and possibly a different brew temperature which a lot of people cannot adjust anyway.

So what do people feel is going to be most helpful for them? Do I pop on a recipe or do people ignore it anyway and use their experience.

Any thoughts would be appreciated (particularly so if you are new to this).

David


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

@BlackCatCoffee I don't know the answer David, but I will say that as a newbie, especially if the website doesn't explain how dark a roast is (but I understand the difficulty with this, somebody's light is somebody else's medium..) then I don't know "where to start".

To use one of your coffees that I've bought, https://www.blackcatcoffee.co.uk/collections/filter-coffee/products/myanmar-a-lel-chaung-natural , from the tasting notes I can more or less infer that it's surely not a dark roast, but is it a medium, is it a light, is it a very light roast?

I don't think a recipe is needed, but I would totally enjoy having a small paragraph along the lines of "this can be considered a medium to light roast and would probably benefit from a longer ratio and higher brew temperatures". It doesn't have to be prescriptive, or have a very narrow range, but for example there might be plenty of unaware buyers who buy the above beans, try and brew espresso with them at 88c on a 1:1.5 ratio and don't quite get to enjoying the beans. Or at least, they "waste" far more beans trying to dial in (if you start way far off from the """"ideal"""" parameters and you only change one at a time..)

I am only offering my point of view - surely most people who buy from you will not be as clueless as me though.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Baffo said:


> @BlackCatCoffee I don't know the answer David, but I will say that as a newbie, especially if the website doesn't explain how dark a roast is (but I understand the difficulty with this, somebody's light is somebody else's medium..) then I don't know "where to start".
> 
> To use one of your coffees that I've bought, https://www.blackcatcoffee.co.uk/collections/filter-coffee/products/myanmar-a-lel-chaung-natural , from the tasting notes I can more or less infer that it's surely not a dark roast, but is it a medium, is it a light, is it a very light roast?
> 
> ...


 As you say, another difficult thing to express but very helpful comments. 👍


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## cengland117 (Apr 11, 2020)

When I started out I was driven by recipes. If I wasn't hitting the numbers I'd be upset. Invariably, until you catch the bug, the equipment you have frustrates that goal. Recipes from roasters distracted me from the important things: how it tasted and how to adjust the variables to alter the taste.

Who does a recipe actually benefit? For those starting out, they could find themselves doing what I did. For the more experienced, chances are they are ignoring your recipe as they have the required knowledge.

To assist those starting out, maybe the best option is to give them a real clear and concise crash course on how to manipulate the variables rather than blindly trying to hit numbers. I appreciate that is essentially a brew guide but it would solve you stressing about giving the "perfect recipe" and save others from trying to tick box your recipe (burning through beans and getting annoyed in the process).


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Random thoughts here

A lot of people don't have the ability to move temp

ALot of people machines take too much time to move Temp

I dont think I have moved the temp on my machine since i got it, but then again most of my coffee is probably in not such a wide range or roast developement. I use brew ratio and grind to drive the cup profile.

Once people hear a recipe they seem to cling to it for dear life, and i think trying to get people to undestand that its not an absolute is quite hard , as they often doing seem to trust their own taste buds , but rather trust some numbers that someone else has told them is good.

How often have i seen " my extraction is good a I'm getting 1:2 in 30 seconds but it Doesn't taste nice.

Does 2 3 second outside of a narrow window make a break a shot , 4 seconds window for a shot in quite a narrow preference.

Lastly i prefer brew ratio to recipe, recipe you have the same ingredient , in espresso the biggest ingredients and variables ( water and gridner ) are so divergent that I think recipe can be misleading. Suggests 0 Follow this recipe for the taste, like cooking, when a brew ratio is primarily driving strength .

Rambling done.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

1:2 really sets a strength range, not a flavour balance, nor a guarantee of revealing the expected flavours.

Whilst many, well extracted 1:2 shots might be pulled in 28-32 seconds, isn't there a danger that this leads people to excluding times outside of this range? It introduces a layer of complexity that is perhaps not needed.

I like well extracted 1:2 shots when I can get them, but for those of us not using espresso as a base for a large milk drink, we might be happier more often with a longer ratio.



BlackCatCoffee said:


> B - Nobody is likely to be using the same equipment as we do. We all know that even if all things are equal if you just switch out the grinder or machine the taste will change by a significant amount. And this is before we get in to the differences in puck prep, coffee age, humidity, environmental temperature etc.


 There's got to be a normal, or a 'lowest common denominator'. Probably more so with grinder than with machines. So what works with entry level gear?

Nobody can ensure good puck prep is followed in the wild, but that doesn't mean a simple suggestion can't be included. Age can be mitigated by grind...humidity & temp have to be considered moot as no one records all this.


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

Funnily enough I'm using part of one of your "recipes" currently @BlackCatCoffee, I'm drinking the Twilight blend, as some of the above comments have said I don't necessarily use the doses you or any other roaster quotes, I tend to taste and dose up or down accordingly, that said, I would never have gone as low as 90° on a roast like Twilight. I'd run the first shot and wasn't happy, but thought I'd seen brew notes on the site and went back and saw the temp recommendation, it improved the taste significantly using my machine, but it would still have given me an idea of which end of the surf to aim at if I didn't have a PID.

My personal view is carry on including brew notes if it doesn't eat your time, machines are getting better and temp control is getting more common, if you're a newcomer to espresso it's somewhere to start in a sea of uncertainty despite its drawbacks.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Right, but if we can't get an indication on appropriate ratio cause it's not indicative of "flavour" per se, and we can't get an indication of timing (and here I agree after speaking with Mark!) since time in itself says nothing.. Then what can we get? Put yourselves in the shoes of a guy who's not an expert. You guys have brewed a lot, just by glancing at the origin you can probably guess what it will taste like, what parameters are in the ideal ballpark, and can judge when more or less the majority of the flavour notes have been extracted.

Not me.

I will have to start from nowhere. Do I really need to go through 1kg of beans, to either

a) find the "recipe" that works for me,

b) or discard the beans as something I don't like,

?

Can there not be a solution that helps people like me get there sooner? And don't get me wrong, I would enjoy dialling in, I am not asking for a magic formula to unlock the secret flavours and get a 10/10 shot cause that's not possible, but this shouldn't mean that I can't be given just a hint, some very broad suggestions on where to start and then adjust accordingly to what my own taste buds are telling me.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

MWJB said:


> 1:2 really sets a strength range, not a flavour balance, nor a guarantee of revealing the expected flavours.
> 
> Whilst many, well extracted 1:2 shots might be pulled in 28-32 seconds, isn't there a danger that this leads people to excluding times outside of this range? It introduces a layer of complexity that is perhaps not needed.
> 
> ...


 I think you right, but I think some people are craving a simple 'espresso by numbers approach' (I know when I was new I certainly did) and it is about how we express things to people without overwhelming them.

To be clear I am not for one second suggesting people should by default use 1:2 or whatever and expect it is a magic bullet, it is just a simple assessment process we go through just like we have a fixed standard for cupping coffee.

One thing we do not currently do is test coffee on entry level gear. Perhaps it is something we ought to consider.

Maybe a recipe guideline with a link to a more in depth brew guide to help people solve problems and modulate flavour is the way to go.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Deegee said:


> Funnily enough I'm using part of one of your "recipes" currently @BlackCatCoffee, I'm drinking the Twilight blend, as some of the above comments have said I don't necessarily use the doses you or any other roaster quotes, I tend to taste and dose up or down accordingly, that said, I would never have gone as low as 90° on a roast like Twilight. I'd run the first shot and wasn't happy, but thought I'd seen brew notes on the site and went back and saw the temp recommendation, it improved the taste significantly using my machine, but it would still have given me an idea of which end of the surf to aim at if I didn't have a PID.
> 
> My personal view is carry on including brew notes if it doesn't eat your time, machines are getting better and temp control is getting more common, if you're a newcomer to espresso it's somewhere to start in a sea of uncertainty despite its drawbacks.


 That is good to know!


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

There is no golden rule sadly, theres just to many variables.

Thats why people always state 1:2 in app 30s then adjust for taste

Start by dialing in to that the adjust from there, be it longer pulls, shorter pulls. Up and down dosing. Taste has to be the driving factor and sadly we dont all taste the same, 🤔 that came out wrong, but you know what i mean.

Having a machine that will keep the variable down like a pid machine for instance will help,

But all you can do it try, and then talk to others.

I think once you start and get used to a machine and grinder combo, you will quickly come to understand what adjustment does what, i can move my grinder 2mm finer and i can got from a 24s shot to a 40s shot.

Id say to learn, buy a 1kg bag of cheap beans to season and learn to dial in, there will be someone with the same grinder no doubt who can help in terms of setting. Then you can play with just that one bean 🤭 again sounds wrong.

Then once you have a go to bean you can start to move about.

Also some beans are just arses and you struggle like mad.

I got a bag of the coveted red brick and that was crap.


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## Arabidopsis (Mar 28, 2020)

I generally find most roasters just kind of say: 30s, 1:2. It's not very informative imho as I feel this is the general starting point for most coffees that people will use. I much prefer a slightly more personalised message(which highlights any quirks) as in e.g. This coffee really shines in a long 1:3 and don't feel afraid to pull a little hotter/colder, Grind a little bit finer than usual for this one.... . Most coffees will be fine at 30s 1:2, but some might taste delicious with a more unusual variables.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Some say 1 to 2 and X secs came about as a suggestion for people using a machine for the first time. Then the terms over and under extracted and etc got thrown in suggesting over 1 to 2 was crap. Shorter too. The came ever increasing taste descriptions which are often an indication more than the taste of what they are said to represent.

Personally I like to see these but don't use this company any more









Or at least some comments on the usual tasting notes such as body. The description of that one g*o*

Flavours - herbal, chocolate, clean earthy, woody notes, spicy

Normal brewing with a bean like this one will not bring these tastes out as the main taste it too strong.


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## InfamousTuba (Feb 5, 2020)

I like those, found a different one on artisan roast as well, don't know if it is needed but I do like to see them. Also they give different tasting notes for their brew methods which I do enjoy like this one for the coffee below: https://shop.artisanroast.co.uk/products/brazil-sul-de-minas-natual?variant=35457496264


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I think radar chart are for the next stage, like when you have the technique dialled in, then you can asses the attributes in detail.

It's no good analysing specific attributes if you're not far enough along to be enjoying the cup at a basic level.


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## simplyme (Jan 2, 2020)

For me, I just like to know the tasting notes for each brew method and recommendations on best suited brew method too


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## InfamousTuba (Feb 5, 2020)

MWJB said:


> I think radar chart are for the next stage


 Good point, definitely not a beginner feature. But I do like seeing them before I buy the beans so I can have a better idea which ones will fit the bill for my tastes before i order.

It is a hard task to work out what information is useful and what is unnecessary. I don't really know which roaster does it best, I guess each roaster has a slightly different style that might suit their customer base


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## Ando (Jan 11, 2021)

I don't look for recipes when buying coffee - have never really read too much into that. I do however like to know roughly what roast level it is (even if not entirely accurate) and the tasting notes.

Roast level I feel gives me a rough guideline to start off when thinking about dose / temperature etc..

My understanding is that darker roasts are easier to work with - so it also allows me to steer clear of the light roasts until I have improved.


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## ZiggyMarley (Jan 9, 2019)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> We often get asked for a recipe which I totally understand. Who wants to waste the good stuff searching for a sweet spot right?
> 
> ...


 I've drunk a fair bit of your coffee, and yhr only time I felt I needed recipe help, is with you Signature blend which I.just couldn't get dialled in.


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## Alpesh (Dec 12, 2020)

As a newcomer myself I have welcomed the brew recipes as a starting place and then adjust to taste from there. It is also useful as a guide when dialling in two different beans from the same roaster as it offers a comparison between recipes. If one bean is already dialled in on my setup I can make relative adjustments for the other.

Alpesh


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Some sites do split beans into brewing methods. I think Redber was one but there are others. I had problems with one beans roast being far too unreliable but apart from that one they were ok.

I think the 2nd graph plot is getting too complicated. The same has happened with the usual coffee taster notes as well. That is not the mentioned flavours.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

They might be helpful to set expectations in the same way tasting notes do with an additional "as espresso" rather than standard cupping notes. I don't really pay attention to the recipes but imagine a lot of people are going to be trying to pull shots on machines that struggle to get hot enough, with grinders that struggle to perform, and for them being told to pull a 1:2 with anything but a dark roast is a recipe for disaster.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

I think radar charts and plots are not necessarily too advanced, but those are telling you how should it taste once you are there or thereabouts, but they do not give you any indication on how to get there. Let's imagine that's a light roast in the chart (the one in the picture is probably more of a medium to dark, perhaps?), maybe one of those notes in the radar will be "unlocked" with the help of a higher temperature. Would my life not be a little bit easier if I was told from the beginning that this is a light roast and that if I can brew at eg. 94c rather than 90c, I'd be at a better start point?


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## Grahamg (Oct 24, 2013)

I buy unadventurous chocolatey beans, and honestly don't remember any recipes that weren't suggesting 1:2 ratio. At the same time I might have ordered some SO beans that then offered no suggestions, maybe roasters were anticipating greater user knowledge from those not just ordering a blend?

Anyway, I like the idea of putting it on there for those that like a little guidance, but with added text that implies it is just a starting point, "try a few grams either way in output and see what works for you".


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## Nightrider_1uk (Apr 26, 2020)

Hi David. What a great post. As a relative beginner who doesn't know much about the science of roasting or tasting profiles (and probable cant taste them), I find knowing the level of roasts a helpful guide to start.

For instance; My personal like's are for long Latte style coffee's usually served in a tall China Latte mug. For this I find the darker roasts better than the lighter one's as I have found lighter roasts give a sour taste to my palette (probably due to poor prep on my part). So for me, as some have suggested, an indication on its roast level and wether its good for milk based drinks, and its best prep method (ie Poor over, espresso etc), would be a tremendous help.

I know some people have said that roast levels are subjective and one persons medium roast is another persons light etc, But I though that roast levels were determined by roasting temperature and time and at what stage in the roasting process the bean achieved before the roast is terminated (eg, first crack, 2nd crack etc). Therefore a roaster would be able to determine how roasted the bean is by the above and then when stating its roast level, there would be consistency in description.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

They're always a good starting point. If found tasting notes can differ depending on variables (water can have a massive implant)


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I use a Sage DB. That means I can change some machine settings. I don't because it adds even more variables to play around with so the machine is used with it's standard settings. Some day I might play with them but only with a bean that I know rather well from drinking a lot of it. I'd be there for ever changing things if I used all of the adjustments that are available.

When I bought my first espresso machine I did know a few things. What the terms risteretto and lungo mean and that a standard double basket takes 14g and double shot weighs 60g. I also realised that if I could find traditional european numbers the shot time and numbers may not be the same. Perhaps 25sec rather than 30. I quickly found that what in this case Sage suggested on brewing didn't work well but things improved as I increase puck resistance to flow and also changing shot time. So no scales, no timer all set up purely on taste. I did notice that at a certain point shots out varied more and didn't realise at the time that the machine was helping. Shot's were eyeballed not weighed. I didn't use the web or a forum. Then I joined this one and heard the usual views and bought scales. My shots were consistent but time and size different. What I found if I changed to these is that I didn't like the drink they produced so stayed at my settings. I did use the web to make sense of cupping notes and found a page that listed a reasonably number of them and a good explanation.  The term earthy doesn't worry me. I know what it means. All pages I can find now are overblown.

Choosing beans. Flavours. It's a case of doing what ever to achieve them but most important of all a drink that I enjoy. I drink americano with little milk. I found that a drink could be too strong to get the range of "tastes" a bean should have. Some beans just have a dominant taste and that's that.

When I set a grinder a shot comes out. Settings between different beans usually don't involve much of a change. I taste it or drink it. That's one done. I do used fixed time shots. That leads to how much variation in output is acceptable. I generally get close to 38g with the bean I usually drink. Shorter is not good news for me. Some come out at 44g. Not sure why. That does shift taste a bit but I find it acceptable. Mess up prep, something I am always playing with now and again and 50 odd might come out. I drink them for punishment. I don't want to see tiger stripes in flow or at the bottom of the basket. It seems to be hard to completely get rid of them.

To be honest I feel a lot of this I want somewhere to start is just an attempt to avoid the complications that are needed. It's not helped by many grinders being tricky to adjust finely. I was probably fortunate to be using a Sage grinder initially. Dial by numbers then finding that dose could be used as well within limits and that lead to just how much coffee can actually be used in a basket. I switched to a mazzer mini and that is "fun" to adjust finely. Niche - fractions of a dot but easier as the adjustment is smoother and next to no back play. Eventually just as many do I switched to weighing beans in even on the Sage. I did use the timer and found weights needed to be checked and time adjusted now and again and that adjustments resulted in different weights out. That's "fun" when tuning. Taste changes as new grinders are used more and more. That can make initial results rather bitter due to excess fines. Even Sage grinders run in.  Mine did playing about.

I suppose people start brewing at home due to drinking better coffee when they are out. The work needed will have been done and in some cases settings maintained. They are likely to see a true volumetric machine in use. Those can maintain shot sizes pretty accurately. Some home brewers weigh out to achieve the same. Coffee shop grinders get run in pretty quickly and the machines are usually used a lot. Beans generally wont be fresh roasted and are likely to a blend. For some reason they seem to keep longer. They may grind more easily too. Outfits like Illy go to extreme lengths to produce consistent beans. It's a different world. A local coffee shop had new gear a year or so ago. A barista came with it for a while. I asked him what basket size and dose he used. He didn't know. That doesn't surprise me. He will have sipped espresso shots for a certain taste and altered things to suite. Probably made some of the drinks they sell as well. Too mild for me really but suitable for the general public. Sometimes when drinking out the shot time they use can be noted. Not hard to do. It varies. Sometimes the pressure gauge can be seen.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Thank you so much to everyone that has taken the time to comment. Really useful feedback for us and I have some ideas to improve how we present our offerings.


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## Stox (Jul 19, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> I tend to like to keep variables to minimum when I am assessing a coffee and as such I prepare pretty much all coffee we roast to 1:2 28-32 and I will use experience to adjust temperature depending on roast profile. Obviously if I am preparing for myself later on I often change things up, but this often comes down to personal preference.


 Nearly all the roasters that provide recipes for their products seem to end up with a similar brew ratio and extraction time for all their beans, which leads one to wonder if they are actually roasting the beans to hit those numbers (I am not a roaster so I could be way off course here).

When I'm looking for the next beans to try out I really want as much information as possible, and having a starting point to work from for the recipe is very helpful.


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## nekromantik (Nov 13, 2011)

Agree I think recipe that the benefit those who new to it and those who dont want to mess about with pressure and temp etc.

I for now cant on my machine, I can only adjust pressure but I rather not mess around haha. Makes me wonder if I should have spent a bit more on a HX with Temp Control!


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