# Decaf beans



## Osh

Have been using decaf beans from one of the favoured suppliers of this forum and the results are very iffy.

Not sure if it's my technique (or lack of), but I've seen other threads where users have not talked kindly about decaf.

What are the main issues with decaf?


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## sandykt

In the past I have used pre-ground decaf coffee for when I really fancy a coffee but now I need to get some sleep. I have found that the coffee just lacked "body" - that's all I can say.


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## DavidS

Osh said:


> What are the main issues with decaf?


There are several methods of decaffeinating coffee. Some of them can remove a lot of the flavours, and desired properties of the bean. What decaf beans are you using?

We recently started a new decaf at BTP (are old one wasn't nice) and it's great. It consistently makes a really good espresso.


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## RisingPower

I personally love hasbeans guatemalan tecuamburro decaf, doesn't lack body at all for my taste. Apparently swiss water/mexican water method can remove flavour but I haven't noticed it.

I think we'd need to know a lot more about technique, grinder, machine, so on and so forth, but if you've taken a look at home-baristas faq on extraction and still have no joy, it could be the bean, but not the fact it's been decaffeinated, or both.


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## Glenn

Did you know that the caffeine captured through this process is used as a caffeine additive in the soft drinks and pharmaceuticals industries?


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## Osh

I'm using hasbean decaf espresso blend. For some reason I assumed it was Swiss Water process but now that I looked, it doesn't state it.



Glenn said:


> Did you know that the caffeine captured through this process is used as a caffeine additive in the soft drinks and pharmaceuticals industries?


Apparently it is very precious stuff.


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## RisingPower

TBH I didn't get on with the hasbean espresso blend whether it was decaf or not, their non decaf blend just tasted burnt/like a usual blend to me. Try their guatemalan tecuamburro decaf, entirely different beast, there's a reason it got 90/100.

Of course it's not quite as nice as the non decaf, but it's still a darn nice coffee (not in the same league as their machacamarca, one to definitely try if you haven't).


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## Osh

RisingPower said:


> TBH I didn't get on with the hasbean espresso blend whether it was decaf or not, their non decaf blend just tasted burnt/like a usual blend to me. Try their guatemalan tecuamburro decaf, entirely different beast, there's a reason it got 90/100.
> 
> Of course it's not quite as nice as the non decaf, but it's still a darn nice coffee (not in the same league as their machacamarca, one to definitely try if you haven't).


Received this coffee today. Roasting date was yesterday. When I opened the packet and help a cupped hand of beans to my nose, a deep sniff reveals disturbingly strong overtones of solvent. The closest I can think of is methylated spirit.

Am I going crazy? Or is something wrong with these beans?

Wife just pointed out that they were "Mexican Water" decaffeinated. For some reason I thought they were Swiss water. Anyone know what process Mexican water is?


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## ChiarasDad

I had the impression that the Mexican process was solvent-free like the Swiss process, though I never looked into the details. Mexican-decaffeinated beans have always tasted quite good to me (to the point where I seek out decaffed-in-Mexico beans when buying decaf), so I don't know what to think about this.

Sweet Maria's, a purveyor of green coffee in California (and with a very informative website in general), has this page which describes Mexican Water as similar to the Swiss Water process.


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## Osh

Interesting reading. I always thought that the Swiss Water process was preferable, hence more costly. It seems that it affects the flavour, and the Mountain (or Mexican) Water process gives better results.


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## RisingPower

I must say, I'm surprised roasted beans have a solventy smell, especially since it would go decaf-> roasting so presumably any solvents would have been burnt off? Green beans however pretty much always smell strongly of solvents/aromatic compounds.

Be interesting to hear what you think of guatemalan in the cup. It is however, a really rich, gloopy, chocolatey taste.

I am wondering however, did it smell a bit like fizzy drink? If it was roasted yesterday you'd get the smell of carbonated beans like a fizzy drink as they would still be degassing (beans take at least 24 hours to degas).


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## Osh

I don't seem to be having any luck with these decaf beans at all. I'm having to grind very coarse, and the taste (and smell) is oh so sour. The Guatemalan was no better than the Colombian.

At first I thought my technique had gone haywire so I dug out some regular beans which have been put in the deep freeze since the developement of my peptic ulcer, and the espressso was back to normal. On a different note, still experiencing some discomfort so it's obviously not healed yet - I really need to source some decent decaf beans.

I think I'll give Has Bean a miss for the moment. Can't fault their service though. Impeccable.


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## RisingPower

Osh said:


> I don't seem to be having any luck with these decaf beans at all. I'm having to grind very coarse, and the taste (and smell) is oh so sour. The Guatemalan was no better than the Colombian.
> 
> At first I thought my technique had gone haywire so I dug out some regular beans which have been put in the deep freeze since the developement of my peptic ulcer, and the espressso was back to normal. On a different note, still experiencing some discomfort so it's obviously not healed yet - I really need to source some decent decaf beans.
> 
> I think I'll give Has Bean a miss for the moment. Can't fault their service though. Impeccable.


That's really very odd indeed.

How long have the other beans been in the freezer? My guess is if they've been in there for a while, they're probably stale and what you see as being coarse, is in fact a typical grind for a very fresh coffee.

My question is a: grinder b: machine. What are they? I'd really be looking at the home-barista faq.

I'd also be curious to see a picture of some of the beans to gauge their roast colour, I think I have underroasted mine a bit recently.


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## Osh

RisingPower said:


> That's really very odd indeed.
> 
> How long have the other beans been in the freezer? My guess is if they've been in there for a while, they're probably stale and what you see as being coarse, is in fact a typical grind for a very fresh coffee.


They've been in the freezer 2 weeks, were frozen a couple of days after roasting in sealed bag. Have found no difference in grind between fresh or 2 weeks old. Can go quite fine with these beans. I'm using a ceramic burr hand grinder, identical to the Kyocera / Porlex.

More worrying is the sourness from the Has Bean supply. This usually indicates under extraction, however I been getting this whichever way I try.



RisingPower said:


> I'd also be curious to see a picture of some of the beans to gauge their roast colour


They are medium, no surface oil visible. Will try and post a pic later tonight.


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## RisingPower

Osh said:


> They've been in the freezer 2 weeks, were frozen a couple of days after roasting in sealed bag. Have found no difference in grind between fresh or 2 weeks old. Can go quite fine with these beans. I'm using a ceramic burr hand grinder, identical to the Kyocera / Porlex.
> 
> More worrying is the sourness from the Has Bean supply. This usually indicates under extraction, however I been getting this whichever way I try.
> 
> They are medium, no surface oil visible. Will try and post a pic later tonight.


Or it could be temperature? I know I had a lot of issues with sour shots on my gaggia classic, was hopeless at trying to temp surf on the classic.

Strange that you get sourness from hasbean though. How long was the pour on the coarsest setting? TBH I go for huge over extraction on the decaf guatemalan, maybe 45-60 seconds for a pour?

Also having said this, I've noted their newer batch has different roasting time to their previous batch. With the last batch I was around 15.5 minutes consistently into 2nd crack, this one was still at the end of first crack at the same time. I'll see today how they taste, but they were a little sour yesterday, but only the tiniest bit (I'm putting this down to degassing). Mine i've definitely roasted to medium this time, should be medium dark I think.


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## Osh

Have managed to sort out temp issues with switching on steam for half a minute. This will give me a consistent temp of 92-94c.

The pour was at least 25sec on the coarsest grind. I tried to go long but is was blonding by then.

Have taken pics of the beans.









Guatemala Tecaumburro









Hasbean Decaf espresso Blend

How do they compare with yours?


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## RisingPower

Looks about the same as mine. Might be worth trying a finer grind and keeping the pour to a dribble.

I have noted, maybe there is a slight sour taste but I think that's from me under-roasting it this time.


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## RisingPower

Here's a picture of the underroasted (imo) guatemalan decaff on the left, bolivian machacamarca about right on the right. Bearing in mind the machacamarca is a fairly oily coffee.


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## Osh

Yes, they do look a bit under done.

I've tried going finer but more often than not I end up choking the machine.

Also I find they're a nightmare to (hand) grind, very rough action.


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## Glenn

Go quite fine, the taste will improve. You're over extracting to get the bitterness by staying coarse

If the beans are fresh then open the bag of remove the beans for a few hours before grinding


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## Osh

I think that these beans are more brittle than the darker roast I've been using and they are shattering in the grinder. I seem to get more inconsistency on the lighter beans than the darker with the same grind setting. Does this make any sense?


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## RisingPower

I guess the beans roasted to a more significant degree and which are very light are more brittle than medium roasted beans, but I'd say the guatemalan doesn't even approach being brittle. The monsooned malabar on the other hand....

I'm also guessing you get more inconsistency because the beans go stale quicker/pick up moisture from the air quicker. I'd really keep playing around with them.

If they're choking the machine, maybe you need to consider a different machine which is able to produce 9-10 bar reliably at the grouphead?


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## Osh

RisingPower said:


> I'm also guessing you get more inconsistency because the beans go stale quicker/pick up moisture from the air quicker. I'd really keep playing around with them.?


I doubt it, they're a fresh batch



RisingPower said:


> If they're choking the machine, maybe you need to consider a different machine which is able to produce 9-10 bar reliably at the grouphead?


Ahh, it always come down to that, the inevitable upgrade.







I don't need the other half to gripe any more about another of my expensive hobbies...


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## Osh

Glenn said:


> Go quite fine, the taste will improve. You're over extracting to get the bitterness by staying coarse
> 
> If the beans are fresh then open the bag of remove the beans for a few hours before grinding


Just pulled another one, finer as you suggested. Definitely an improvement though it's now picking up more bitterness than sour.


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## Glenn

Shorten the shot to 21sec and see if there is any difference now


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## RisingPower

Interesting though, I definitely noticed more sourness yesterday, could be the batch as they can vary wildly.


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## Osh

Same here. Getting really inconsistent results with this bean.


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## RisingPower

Osh said:


> Same here. Getting really inconsistent results with this bean.


If you're further interested I did a much darker roast yesterday and got no sourness whatsoever, but lots of different flavours I haven't had before. Coulda sworn on the last batch it said don't take into 2nd crack, this one it only works imo in 2nd crack and the roast colour of yours is still a little light for that. One of the good things of having a roaster is being able to play with the roast profile.


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## Osh

RisingPower said:


> Coulda sworn on the last batch it said don't take into 2nd crack, this one it only works imo in 2nd crack and the roast colour of yours is still a little light for that. One of the good things of having a roaster is being able to play with the roast profile.


Not sure where you got that from. On their cupping notes on Hasbean they write:



> I prefer just into second crack to develop the flavours without killing too much of the sweetness and acidity.


I'm still interested in getting my hands on a decentish decaf blend as I'm still having problems with the caffeine. As much as I didn't enjoy the Tecuamburro, it didn't give me any discomfort whatsoever.


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## ChiarasDad

Followup to the earlier Mexican "Mountain Water" process posts: I came across the website of the decaffeination company. Not terribly informative, but here it is anyway.

http://www.descamex.com/descamexi.html


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## Osh

Seems to be the Mexican's answers to the Swiss Water process. Interesting that they polish the bean at the end of the process for visual enhancement.

Incidentally, it's done in Canada with British Columbia water - not sure why its called Swiss...

BTW, I've PM'd you about an OT question.


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## Osh

Tried Peruvian El Guabo Deacf from James Gourmet Coffee. Recommended for any decaf drinkers out there.


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## mike 100

Just ordered some decaff brazilian beans from a supplier, which uses the DCM method to remove the caffeine, I presume this is a chemical process and wondered if anyone has tried beans treated by this method and what they thought of it

Mike


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## Osh

For clarification on DCM, this is from the International Coffee Organization's website



> *Methylene Chloride (i.e. Dichloromethane-DCM) method*: DCM extracts the caffeine selectively and has a low boiling point. In the extracting vessel dicloromethane is circulated around the water soaked beans for extracting the caffeine. Then the mixture of DCM and caffeine is drained from the extracting vessel. The extraction step is repeated several times, until the residual caffeine content is at or below the legal maximum level of 0,1%. The process followed guarantees that possible solvent residues remain below the limits fixed by the European legislation.


Have tried it and not very impressed. But then again it varies from supplier to supplier. IMHO the CO2 process is the most cost effective vs. results option available.


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## mike 100

Thanks Osh, the beans have now arrived, the seem to have a very slight "chemical" smell, but not as bad as I was expecting.. will see what they taste like in a day or so

Mike


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## Osh

Just to drive home a point: Today I tried Rombouts decaffeinated cup filters (prepackaged coffee - shudder!). Rombouts is probably the best you can get for off the shelf filters. These decaf ones were absolutely awful.

Rombouts told me in an email that they use "The Traditional (Direct) Method" of decaffeination which is the same thing as DCM or Methylene Chloride.


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## mike 100

Tried the recently purchased Brazilian decaff beans today,they are very dark in colour, the chemical smell seems to have almost gone, tried an espresso,and found it better than I expected although a bit on the bitter side for my taste.

Osh does the El Guabo from James Gourmet work well as an espresso?


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## Osh

I have only used it for espresso, and performs excellently. Ask Glenn how delicious it smells!!


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## mike 100

Many thanks Osh, I think I will order some and give it a try, is it me but do all De caff beans look very dark after roasting, and could this be the cause of the bitter taste?

Regards


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## Osh

I haven't found that at all. I've had some very middle of the road decaf roasts, which were hardly bitter. You might be confusing it with the intensity of the taste or dark roast. I find that grinding finer and pulling tighter brings out a nice sweetness with this bean.


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## Glenn

I can vouch for the aromas, and the taste is pretty good also


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## mike 100

Thank Glenn, will be ordering some soon, are there any other de caff beans that you would recommend trying?


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## Osh

I have some Ethiopian Sidamo Decaff on the way to me today. Will let you know how it goes.


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## mike 100

Thanks Osh, likewise if I find anything decent I will post the details. Sorry to read about your health problems, my wife is caffiene intolerant so I can sympathize with you. The Coffee Bean Shops' Guatemalan decaff was pretty good but I think they are having problems getting it... may be worth a call

Regards

Mike


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## Osh

Tried the Sidamo in both Aeropress and Espresso. Quite bright and lemony. Prefer it in the Aeropress. Quite a light roast, something you'd probably like.


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## mike 100

Sounds good Osh, awaiting some El Guabo from James, think I will try the Sidamo next, sounds very nice!


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## Glenn

These are definitely 2 of the best Decaf coffees available at present


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## Glenn

Last night I prepared these coffees for a client as a Hario V60 pourover and also as espresso and cappuccinos

The Has Bean coffee tasting notes (from my clients) were as follows;

Espresso: Zesty Citrus, Toast, Sultanas and Licorice - noticeable sweetness with milk highlighting citrus

Hario: Mellow, Sultanas, Rounded, Refreshing - tea like quality

The James Gourmet coffee tasting notes (from my clients) were as follows;

Espresso: Juicy, Sweet, Nice with milk

Hario: Body, Chocolate, Sultanas or Figs?, Earth

I was really pleased with both of these selections and I'm sure both roasters will be receiving orders from them in the very near future

You would be hard pressed to tell these coffees apart from caffeinated options as a Hario.

I found I needed to grind extra fine for the espresso though. Not 100% sure why. I'll ask the roasters if they know


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## mike 100

Tried the El Guabo from James Gourmet today, one of the best decaff's I have tasted, Glenn is right about the aroma, definite hints of almond. Will try the sidamo next!


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## Glenn

mike 100 said:


> Will try the sidamo next!


Drop me a PM after reading this


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## mike 100

Tried the El Guabo and the Sidamo both very nice, can't quite belive they are decaff, best I have tasted! would defini,tely reccommend them both Thanks for the info Osh.


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## liquidmonkey2000

As it happens I was just reading this article by guy who went on an Universita del Caffe Degli USA course. Anyway part of the course was about decaf - this is what he writes:

Next there was a discussion on decaf coffee. Signor Faina asked if anyone could tell the difference between regular and decaf. Many in the class said they could. He said that it was difficult to tell the difference between Illy regular and Illy decaf. We tasted both and less than half the class could tell the difference. Signor Faina said that on average only 20% could tell the difference.

Whether that figure of 20% is true or not I don't know but it doesn't surprise me if it is.

You can read the rest of the article here if you are interested.


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## Osh

mike 100 said:


> Tried the El Guabo and the Sidamo both very nice, can't quite belive they are decaff, best I have tasted! would defini,tely reccommend them both Thanks for the info Osh.


You're very welcome. Enjoy!!


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## mike 100

New de-caff from James Gourmet looks interesting, Finca El Chino may be one for Osh!


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## Osh

That looks very appealing. Not usually a big fan of Mexican water process, but you can be sure if Peter James says it's good... IT'S GOOD!!


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## Osh

Peter at James Gourmet has just told me that he's added a new decaf. It's the Aceh Takengon. This one is the CO2 process.

He's also said the the Sidamo is finished, and I'm still waiting to hear if the El Guabo is still available as it's no longer featuring on the website.

Update:

Just been told that the El Guabo is gone now. I'm gutted. My last two bags are now worth their weight in gold. I've been promised that the Chino is better and fresher. Looking forward.


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## mike 100

Osh, just read the news about the Sidamo/El Guabo (both enjoyed by me, thanks to you!) if it helps I just checked the Has Bean site and they have de-caff Sidamo co2 process,

thought you may be interested


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## Osh

Thanks. I've just ordered the new stock at James Gourmet. Will let you know what it's like.

Was just doing some research on caffeine intolerance and it seems that for hyper sensitive people, the different decaffeination processes can have varied effects. Apparently the Swiss Water is the best method for caffeine removal. It also mentioned there Trung Nguyen Passiona beans which are naturally low in caffeine.

I think I might have to start looking into the decaffeination methods and whether they have different effects on me.


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## Osh

Have tried the Finca El Chino as espresso and can say it's absolutely excellent. Very smooth and well rounded.

I think the Mountain Water process is much kinder to the stomach as well.

Even if you're not a decaf drinker, this is one to try.


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## mike 100

Just tried the El Chino, and echo what Osh has said, one of the best de caffs available at the moment,as to the different decaffenation methods, I have tried coffee decaffenated by the DCM process and did not like that at all.


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## ChiarasDad

I too was very pleased with the Finca El Chino. I don't think I have the temperature quite right yet, but even so it made a very pleasing cup.


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## mike 100

Just tried some El Guabo decaff from Has Bean, very nice, and think worth a try for all those missing it from James Gourmet (Osh!)

Mike


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## carbonkid85

mike 100 said:


> Just tried some El Guabo decaff from Has Bean, very nice,


I have a bag of that sat in my cupboard. I just can't get a decent cup from it. It just tastes so... empty!

I had an amazing decaf from Hasbean a while back, but it isn't available anymore. I think it was the Sidamo mentioned below. (Almost) couldn't tell it was decaf.

In summary, I've been at home a lot today and I am completely wired.


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## mike 100

Just tried some Finca Bourbon de caff (Filter Profile) from James Gourmet as an espresso, and found it very good, very fruity with a pleasant after taste, worth trying if you want a decent de-caff

Mike


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## Shuttergirl

Just tried 3 decafs: Square Mile's Finca Bourbon, Has Beans Colombia del Obispo C02, and CoffeeBeanShop's Premium Espresso Decaf Blend. For me the last one works the best as a daily coffee - although its potent. 14g was way too strong for my 2 shot glasses. Think it may be the opposite with the HB Colombia - it tasted like dish water on 15g. I'm going to try it on a higher dose to see if it helps, but I think it may be put at the back of the cupboard. The SM Finca Bourbon was a total disappointment - it says it has burnt orange and marmalade on the nose...that's not quite what I tasted! (As a disclaimer, I have to say I don't have a great grinder at the mo'. So Im not writing anything off totally until I've bought in a good one in the next few weeks).

Are there any standard beans that have a low caffeine content?


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## Eyedee

Are there any standard beans that have a low caffeine content?

Have you thought of mixing decaff with some non-decaff beans, this would achieve your lower caffeine needs and also give you much more control over the taste of the final product.

Ian


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## Shuttergirl

Oh yes, plenty o'home blending going on


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## mike 100

Coffee Bean Shop's Brazilian de-caff is quite good, James Gourmet's Finca Bourbon is nice, also check out posts from "osh" in the beans section, he put me onto some decent de-caff in the past

I also remember reading somewhere that Vietnamese beans were, on the whole, lower in caffiene than most other countries beans

Regards

Mike


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## Shuttergirl

Thanks for the Vietnamese tip. Not sure if any of the usual roasters have any Vietnamese...not been able to find any on my searches.

I did find a UK Vietnamese coffee website which mentioned that Trung Nguyên's Passiona has 1/3 standard caffeine content, but no idea what it might be like and they only sell it pre-ground, unlike their other types. Not sure, either, if Trung Nguyên is the Lavazza etc of the Vietnamese coffee world...???


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## mike 100

I think trungdong coffee co are on this forum, it may be worth a PM to see what they have, there are some reviews on here as well just search "Vietnamese"

Just had some Brazilian decaff from Coffee Bean Shop, seems to improve after a week or so!

Regards

Mike


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## mike 100

Just tried some Square Mile Finca Bourbon de-caff, undecided about it at the moment, usually with caffinated beans of different types I may need to adjust the grinder (i-mini stepless) up or down a little to suit the particular bean, but I find with de-caff beans I have to adjust the grinder 4 or 5 turns finer to get a decent shot, I was just wondering why this should be, is it something to do with the caffiene removal process? Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me!

I have tried de-caffs from different suppliers, using different methods of caffiene removal so its not that,

Any ideas? (where's OSH when you need him!)

Mike 100


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## shrink

id guess because the decafs are washed, rinsed and chemically treated etc, there will be fewer oils on them, so that may have an effect on grind.


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