# Graef CM800



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Just wondering if anyone has experience with this grinder.

Im looking for my first grinder (ie upgrade from preground) and at around 100quid this looks like a good starting point. Obvioulsy Id love to just jump in with a mignon or something, but I dont have the spare dosh and kind of want to see how I get on at the lower end before upgrading.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

What kind of brewing method are you pairing it with?


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

gaggia classic


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

I read around some reviews on another forum. It looks to be an OK starter grinder with acceptable results. Biggest gripe seems to be the limited 40 stepped adjustment. This may mean that to get the correct extraction you want to be in-between two adjustment points. To get around this you may need to up-dose or down-dose to compensate.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

I wouldn't recommend it for espresso


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I tried the posher version of the Graef grinder and sent it back. I wasn't at all happy about what came out of it at the fine end. It was rather solidly built but I think their cheaper model isn't the same. Not sure

I would suspect that a Sage Dose Control Pro was a better option in that price range but await other opinions. They use small burrs but I think they gain as they work and the way they are built insures that they are mounted pretty accurately. The graef burrs could fail to clear the grounds so the lot choked up. Might have been a bad example. No way of knowing.

I do have 2 Sage grinders. The Smart Grinder Pro and the one built into the Barista Express. The Smart because it was refurbished and cheaper than the Dose at the time.

John

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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

I have a Sage Smart Grinder Pro and it struggles with espresso. I'd be surprised if the Graef was any worse.

Why don't you take a look at a manual grinder? You'll get a better quality grind for the outlay.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

lake_m said:


> I have a Sage Smart Grinder Pro and it struggles with espresso. I'd be surprised if the Graef was any worse.
> 
> Why don't you take a look at a manual grinder? You'll get a better quality grind for the outlay.


In what way does it struggle with espresso. It will certainly grind finer than you will need on an espresso machine. Also once it's settled nice even grinds without clumps even on oily beans.

John

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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

You are better off saving up to around £150 and buying a 64mm used commercial grinder such as a Mazzer superjolly or Fiorenzato F5, will save you money in the long run as it is likely you will soon upgrade after experiencing the headache of trying to get an ok shot with the Graef.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

"In what way does it struggle with espresso. It will certainly grind finer than you will need on an espresso machine. Also once it's settled nice even grinds without clumps even on oily beans.

John"

Yeah I guess.

But you can hear the motor struggle with fine espresso grinding and I was never 100% happy with the consistency or taste. You can do so much better for not much more money believe me.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I don't disbelieve you. The motor "struggling" is down to using a brushed motor. This seems to be a pretty general thing on compact grinders. It doesn't take much electronics to fix it but I suppose that it would add to cost.

I've managed to maintain a very consistent dose on the grinder in a Barista Express over rather a lot of beans via minor time setting adjustments done on the basis of the look of the puck. Not very often once the grinder has settled down. Initially I also checked weight but as it was always the same gave that up. Most of the beans by a large margin have been oily roast monsooned.

Of late I have been doing a lot of weighing beans in on an SGP checking every one for weight afterwards. Comes out the same +/- 0.1g except when I change the grind setting but it comes back to that very quickly and is still pretty close anyway, One low one was due 2 beans lodging on the hopper lock knob.








There is one problem with them when they are happy - huge pile of grinds. Might be better on a 58mm tamper basket but thumbing them in before tamping needs some care. I don't spill much now.

They can go unhappy.







Might be part down to me not tightening the inner burr nut enough. It came loose and I didn't notice. I'd seen a video showing a plastic part that Sage did use to sweep the grinds out of the chamber under the burrs. It's now a metal part that does the work so that doesn't wear out. I thought I'd best check the BE so stripped and cleaned that completely. All hell broke loose while still using the same batch of beans. I just expected a low weight to come out for a while. Same weight pretty solid clumps and and grinds much much lower than usual which choked the machine unless I set a much coarser grinding setting, 10 rather than the usual 6 for oily monsooned and brew pressure still too high really. Considering there are only 16 steps that's a hell of a change. Totally different taste too due to all the fines. Not pleasant any more.

While I had it apart I did notice something. Grinds are trapped in the grind chamber and it looks to have been done on purpose - saves wearing the grinds chamber out which is also plastic. The grinds are pretty firmly trapped too so as I pointed out in another thread not really worth worrying about once that area has settled down. It might take 20g of different beans to be sure none of the previous ones were there even if beans were left on top of the burrs and just the hopper emptied and refilled.







I tried it. Brush the burrs over and I'm sure that 20g would prevent any carry over. The burrs don't retain much anyway. I put some vanilla flavoured beans some one bought into the SGP, never again but it didn't take many grinds to get rid of even that taste. Circa 80g and very little signs of it on the last so might have been imagination.

There are bargains but some can be risky. I have an untidy Doge 63mm. Bought for £60 and dating from mid 2006. It runs sweetly but I could change the bearings in it if that was needed. The burr adjustment thread is a wonderful fit. Some one could buy a grinder like that and find it's totally clapped out. My workshop unusable so can't strip clean and get shut of the doser yet.








I'll make my mind up about bigger and better then. I'm inclined to feel that the manufacturing precision is also important and in my view on that score the Sage is pretty good. I suspect the Graef has a bit of a problem with the burr design as the whole thing clogged up. There are plenty of video's showing it being used on youtube. From my experience assume the clumps will be more frequent and more compacted. The BE grinder seem to be a bit better on clumps than the SGP but there is no substance to them.

John

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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Thanks for all the replies............kind of knew i was walking into a minefield

Much food for thought. At the end of the day ill have a very limited budget. I could get a manual grinder now, but feel its better to wait and save for an entry level electric, see how i get on then make the leap to something more decent whether its a second hand commercial or a better domestic one.

thanks again.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

something to ponder if you are on a limited budget is the very little retention with the manual grinders, meaning you can save around 5-10 grams of coffee compared to electric (depending on the grinder - the coming Niche grinder will be the cheapest electric with minimum retention) every morning or when making a shot after a longer period of time

the retention is caused by ground coffee filling empty spaces in the output path and this goes stale overnight

the manual grinders have no such spaces


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

I agree with @Stanic , if you are on a limited budget of £100 you are better off sourcing a manual grinder like a feldgrind with stepless adjustment and minimal retention than buying an entry level grinder like the sage (which has roughly the same sized burrs) , only to find out it is a headache for espresso and upgrade. While those cheaper compact grinders can be attractive at that price range, the used commercials that cost an extra £50 completely outclass them.


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Rakesh said:


> I agree with @Stanic , if you are on a limited budget of £100 you are better off sourcing a manual grinder like a feldgrind with stepless adjustment and minimal retention than buying an entry level grinder like the sage (which has roughly the same sized burrs) , only to find out it is a headache for espresso and upgrade. While those cheaper compact grinders can be attractive at that price range, the used commercials that cost an extra £50 completely outclass them.


cheers i will take a look at the feldgrind.

which commercials are you specifically referring to at around 150 quid second hand?


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

jj-x-ray said:


> cheers i will take a look at the feldgrind.
> 
> which commercials are you specifically referring to at around 150 quid second hand?


Second hand 64mm commercial grinders go for roughly £150 in ok condition, obviously ones in better nick or refurbs go for a bit more.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

A Super Jolly or similar spec doser grinder might go for that sort of money. An on-demand like the 65E likely to be double that.


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## jimbocz (Jun 5, 2015)

I had a Graef CM800 as my first grinder and at the time it seemed fine to me. As far as I can tell, it's roughly the same burr set and overall design as the Sage grinders. I was just learning then, and still learning now, but I was certainly able to create a decent cappuccino with it that was just as good as the fancy coffee shops.

When I upgraded to a Mignon, I could certainly tell the difference and would suggest that if you can stretch your budget to that, you should.

I'm not so keen on the suggestion that you should get a manual grinder. I started with one of those as well and it did not take me long to learn that when you are experimenting and learning, grinding with a hand grinder is a pain. The first time you sit down with your new machine and a bag of beans to try it all out and properly dial in your grinder, you are going to try 5 or 10 shots. That gets old quick. It's not so bad when you are just making one or two coffees a day once you have settled into a routine.

Good luck and I hope this helps.


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

jimbocz said:


> I had a Graef CM800 as my first grinder and at the time it seemed fine to me. As far as I can tell, it's roughly the same burr set and overall design as the Sage grinders. I was just learning then, and still learning now, but I was certainly able to create a decent cappuccino with it that was just as good as the fancy coffee shops.
> 
> When I upgraded to a Mignon, I could certainly tell the difference and would suggest that if you can stretch your budget to that, you should.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jimbo. I would love to stretch to a mignon, but can't at this time and don't want to wait until I can whilst using preground and pressurised porta filter, as that could be months and months.

Plus there's part of me that thinks you should own a series of Ford Capris before moving to a Merc.....just for the character building .

I agree with your thoughts in manual......I feel I would be wanting an electric not that long after a manual, making the manual a bit of a waste. That said, I will take a look.

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts... daunting world


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

When I was in your boat just over a year ago I took the view a cheap burr grinder is better than no grinder. Luckily a gaggia MDF (easy to mod to stepless) popped on the bay on a silly BIN so I ran with that until I saved up a bit more & a mignon came along for the right price.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I kind of agree with the comments about the hassle of grinding for espresso with a hand grinder, and chose not to myself. However, in order to use a hand grinder for espresso it really needs to be one of the Made by Knock grinders or better, you won't get far with a cheap one designed for brewed coffee. But, I also don't think it is a waste, as you may want to try brewed coffee in the future, such as Aeropress, V60, maybe a cold brew in the summer. I bought an aergrind for exactly that. So it can do espresso, and will do brewed too. Definitely not a waste. But yes, hand grinding might get old if you're making a lot of espresso. I think the guys are just letting you know that the grinder is key to making a drinkable espresso at home, and that there is a strong possibility that the real waste will be if you buy an unsuitable grinder that turns out to just help you throw coffee down the sink and become sad and frustrated. You don't need to spend many hundreds, but I think something of the Mazzer Mini or Super Jolly level, (timer/doser model) will see you right until you have more budget. I had a Mini and it made good coffee, and is a reliable workhorse. Used super jollys are affordable too. I really only upgraded because I got fed up with the faff of a doser and having to dial in again after cleaning. I got a Eureka Zenith 65E which was a small step up in terms of grind quality and taste in the cup, but a lot nicer to use and live with. Those attributes are a luxury that can wait, but if you have to work within a tight budget, make sure what you buy will actually do what you want (make nice espresso) otherwise you really would be better off with an aergrind. I've never used a Graef so I can't offer my thoughts on that, but it's telling that so many are voicing their misgivings perhaps? Making good coffee at home needn't cost a fortune, but espresso does demand a fair initial investment.


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## zeezaw (Nov 12, 2017)

I reckon this is a decent, affordable first grinder, though not as good as the SGP.

The original name is the Sunbeam EM0480, plenty of info on http://coffeesnobs.com.au/showthread.php?t=24606.


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## jimbocz (Jun 5, 2015)

zeezaw said:


> I reckon this is a decent, affordable first grinder, though not as good as the SGP.


Why is that? I think the burrs are probably identical.


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## zeezaw (Nov 12, 2017)

jimbocz said:


> Why is that? I think the burrs are probably identical.


The SGP has a PF holder, provides timed doses in 0.2s increments (programmable for 1, 2, x cups...), is quieter, cleaner, comes with a grounds container, removable tray, etc.

I can't imagine the burrs would be identical, the SGP has 60 grind settings vs 25 on the Sunbeam/Graef. In addition, there are 6 levels of adjustment on the burr assembly to adjust for wear on the SGP, meaning it's really 6x60 settings.

Both are capable of grinding for espresso if that's what you mean, with the Sunbeam more likely to need shimming.


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

I thought the graef has 40 settings plus the option to change the upper burr by several notches offering multiple ranges effectively


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## zeezaw (Nov 12, 2017)

jj-x-ray said:


> I thought the graef has 40 settings plus the option to change the upper burr by several notches offering multiple ranges effectively


You're right, upon closer inspection the Graef is different to the Sunbeam EM0480, they do offer similar levels of adjustability to the SGP as far as grind fineness is concerned. Perhaps it is a cleaner grinder as well, as the exit chute looks slightly different.

The other differences that I pointed out still apply, e.g the electronic timer.


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## jimbocz (Jun 5, 2015)

zeezaw said:


> The SGP has a PF holder, provides timed doses in 0.2s increments (programmable for 1, 2, x cups...), is quieter, cleaner, comes with a grounds container, removable tray, etc.
> 
> I can't imagine the burrs would be identical, the SGP has 60 grind settings vs 25 on the Sunbeam/Graef. In addition, there are 6 levels of adjustment on the burr assembly to adjust for wear on the SGP, meaning it's really 6x60 settings.
> 
> Both are capable of grinding for espresso if that's what you mean, with the Sunbeam more likely to need shimming.


I think you've got a lot more than that incorrect.

Of course the Graef has a PF holder, and comes with a removable tray and a grind container.

I'm guessing you've never used this grinder and therefore have no idea which model is quieter or cleaner.


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