# The insidious worm of upgrading is beginning to turn.



## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

I found myself gazing longingly at Espresso machines online the other evening, not happened for a while. I reckon it is because I was supposed to be retiring next month and would have been treating myself. However due to circumstances beyond my control etc, I am staying on for another whole year. Dammit.

Anyway, what my look about did do was firm up some ideas on what I may go for when the time comes.

I want a machine with a rotary pump that doesn`t need plumbing in, so far only three have caught my eye on a well known espresso machine porn site, the Izzo Alex, Rocket Espresso Giotto Evoluzione V2 and Rocket Espresso Cellini Evoluzione V2. The water where I live is extremely hard requiring serious filtering and I already have a reverse osmosis system feed six feet away from my coffee zone for tank top ups.

Anyone with one of these around the forum? and any other machines to consider?


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

If I were you and you have the cash, I'd wait for the Rocket R58 to be available at Bella Barista and GET ONE!

Rotary, dual boiler, PID controller, E61, 2 pressure gauges and Rocket build quality. Also tank and plump with a switch to choose behind the drip tray (I think).

No idea of retail price yet but I think it'll be similar to the Alex.

Might be worth giving Claudette a buzz at BB.


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## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

fatboyslim said:


> If I were you and you have the cash, I'd wait for the Rocket R58 to be available at Bella Barista and GET ONE!
> 
> Rotary, dual boiler, PID controller, E61, 2 pressure gauges and Rocket build quality. Also tank and plump with a switch to choose behind the drip tray (I think).
> 
> ...


She's getting one in very soon to have a look at.........her initial thoughts didnt sound particularly positive.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

fatboyslim said:


> If I were you and you have the cash, I'd wait for the Rocket R58 to be available at Bella Barista and GET ONE!
> 
> Rotary, dual boiler, PID controller, E61, 2 pressure gauges and Rocket build quality. Also tank and plump with a switch to choose behind the drip tray (I think).
> 
> ...


I emailed and Claudette said that it was going to be considerably more than a duetto - I'm assuming that means £2k ish. Also the switch for plumb to tank is actually in the pid!

Don you seem pretty set on a hx - any reason you aren't considering double boiler? If you read the review of the Giotto evo on BB I think I recall that the reviewer rated it higher than the alex. My only concern would be is it a worthy upgrade from a Giotto to a Giotto evo? Would the espresso taste any better?

The only machine I would be looking at is the alex duetto if I was you but I'm pretty much set on a double boiler. I wouldn't have a problem with cooling flushes if it was plumbed in or if the tap water is soft enough to go straight in the tank but if it all has to be filtered I wouldn't be so keen in flushing so much through.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

The Expobar Leva Dual Boiler is much more bang for the buck than the Rocket, but it isn't so pretty. The Rocket R58 is available for £1400 + VAT direct from Italy, but the separate plug-in PID control is, as far as I'm concerned, very bad design and would put me off buying it (and makes me suspect the whole design philosophy of the company valuing form over function).

The only thing in favour of the Rockets compared to the Expobar is that they are very beautiful...


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

The reason I didn't mention the expobar is that Don said he wanted something with a rotary pump and as far as I know you can't get the rotary brewtus in the uk. Also, for someone that knows how to manage temperature on a hx, I'm not sure a brewtus represents that much of an upgrade.

Whereabouts have you seen the rocket for sale? I do think it looks lovely, the only issue is that, like you, i would have liked to see the pid more integrated. Saying that though, I can imagine there are folks out there who don't want to see an LCD on the front of their espresso machine.

Compared to a standard brewtus the r58 has a rotary pump (may or may not bother you), more powerful heating elements, pid control of the steam boiler - I think this is supposed to mean faster response times for the steam element kicking in, and also I believe (but I'm not 100% sure) that the rocket uses more commercial grade components than the expobars do.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

What about the La Spaziale Vivaldi S1 Mk 11? Dual boiler but dang this only has a vibe pump.

My mistake. That is one hell of a machine if you don't mind 53mm though.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

lookseehear said:


> Whereabouts have you seen the rocket for sale? I do think it looks lovely, the only issue is that, like you, i would have liked to see the pid more integrated. Saying that though, I can imagine there are folks out there who don't want to see an LCD on the front of their espresso machine.


Here: http://www.espressocoffeeshop.it/rocket_r58_espresso_coffee_machine.html

I think if they can't integrate the PID control into their machine without it still looking good they have very poor designers. Why be ashamed of a PID control but proud of nice round pressure gauges? It's lazy, flawed design.

Having said that, I think the Cellini is a truly lovely machine and I lust after one. The Giotto, which is the same machine with fancy bulges stuck on the sides is a little daft.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Hold horses and await Brewtus mk5 that's all i would say


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

garydyke1 said:


> Hold horses and await Brewtus mk5 that's all i would say


Do you know something we don't know? Spill the beans!


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

RoloD said:


> Do you know something we don't know? Spill the beans!


What he said! Mk4 hasn't been out that long yet has it - 1y ish?


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

RoloD said:


> Here: http://www.espressocoffeeshop.it/rocket_r58_espresso_coffee_machine.html
> 
> I think if they can't integrate the PID control into their machine without it still looking good they have very poor designers. Why be ashamed of a PID control but proud of nice round pressure gauges? It's lazy, flawed design.
> 
> Having said that, I think the Cellini is a truly lovely machine and I lust after one. The Giotto, which is the same machine with fancy bulges stuck on the sides is a little daft.


Free shipping to the UK from that site as well. Even with the VAT it's pretty much the same price as a duetto from BB. I've just seen that if you have any problems within the 2 year warranty period you only pay €15 to ship it to them and they ship it back for free! I've just noticed they sell the duetto as well which looks like it would come in under £1600 from there.

I think the big gauges fit in nicely with the chrome / polished stainless. I wonder how long it will take someone to come up with a novel place to put the PID.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

It's just a hunch , put it that way


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

How easy is it to descale the duetto


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## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> It's just a hunch , put it that way


Well seeing as i've just bought a Mk4 so i'm gonna put my figers in my ears, humm and ignore the rest of this convsersation.

Saying that thought.......seeing as the difference between a mk3 & mk4 was just a steam switch could it be that much different to warrant holding of getting one.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Wasn't 'just a steam switch', I think.

Being able to turn off the steam boiler meant a major rejigging inside.


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## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

Expobarista said:


> Wasn't 'just a steam switch', I think.
> 
> Being able to turn off the steam boiler meant a major rejigging inside.


Yes agree internally major modifications may have been done but to the average punter like me and the reviews i've watched/read it seems the only addition is the steam switch to turn off the steam boiler, and possibly the change from a red to a blue PID.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I think you are right, I can't think of any other changes, but it is worth remembering that it's a pretty major change, and one that came about through customer feedback (ie. whinging on Internet forums).

For me, a worthwhile change would be a low water alarm, and my guess would be that will be the change. Other useful things would be accessible drain plugs on the boilers.

Apart from that I really can't think of anything.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Expobarista said:


> I think you are right, I can't think of any other changes, but it is worth remembering that it's a pretty major change, and one that came about through customer feedback (ie. whinging on Internet forums).
> 
> For me, a worthwhile change would be a low water alarm, and my guess would be that will be the change. Other useful things would be accessible drain plugs on the boilers.
> 
> Apart from that I really can't think of anything.


I think those tweeks/changes + slight softening of the egdes of the finish would be very worth while...oh and lid handles as standard!


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## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

Yeh I've run out if water mid shot already.

Did wonder how difficult it would be to make a buzzer or alarm with bits from maplin. Basically a single battery a buzzer and a float switch.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

pendragoncs said:


> Yeh I've run out if water mid shot already.
> 
> Did wonder how difficult it would be to make a buzzer or alarm with bits from maplin. Basically a single battery a buzzer and a float switch.


As good as the 3 litre tank is, sods law means it will run out mid-shot. Thus now I refill the tank whenever I switch the machine on, just part of the workflow.

Interestingly one of the best shots I had recently was when the machine turned off about 22 seconds in....shot continued to pour perfectly (with just line pressure) until about 30 seconds and tasted lush - accidental pressure profiling !


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

Thanks for the replies folks.

As to the double versus single boiler suggestions, I like the idea of an HX machine which will be much more energy efficient and the fact that the design has been the industry standard for over 50 year essentially unchanged. Plus the fact that rotary pumped dual boilers machines are even more expensive than the ones i am eyeing up.

Who knows which machine I will end up with. The likely scenario will be a trip to Bella Barista for some hands on with the machines they have in at the time and there will be one that just does it for me on the day.


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