# one for those with electrical knowledge



## profspudhed (Mar 18, 2011)

I currently have my machine hooked up to a 30A cooker switch, as its a commercial HX machine it takes a good half hour to warm up at least, so i thought it would be nice if i had it turn on in the morning and get hot before i drag myself out of bed, sure i could use a boring old timer for this but first i get up at varying times and im too lazy to set a timer every day, second im a nerd so if theres a techy option ill always take it. its 2017, things are supposed to be all space age!

so with that in mind i thought id set up a simple arduino with a bluetooth module and 30A relay and set it up on my phone so the machine automatically switches on half an hour or so before my alarm, setting up the tech part of that is no problem but im not used to working with stuff thats wired directly into a 30A box before, ive always used this sort of stuff on equipment thats plugged into a standard 13A plug socket or even lower voltages so i have a few questions.

should i put the relay switch in line before the cooker switch box or after it, or is it safe to just replace the switch altogether with the relay?

and arguably more important is it safe to do? the electrics in my house are ANCIENT there are no separate RCDs for the plug sockets or lighting etc its just a single circuit with a single breaker, are there any extra safety measures i should take? should i put an extra 30A fuse in line? (there is no fuse in the current switch box) i cant update the electrics of the house too much as its rented so rewiring the place isnt an option

i may consider something other than bluetooth down the line so i can control it remotely if im out and coming home or something but at the moment my lights and switches are all bluetooth, maybe when i get around to switching them to a wifi setup i may switch it to a wifi module but for now ill start with the basics


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Simply put you should not mess with what is there ie part of the house wiring. You cannot connect just any old thing directly to the house wiring either.

Please tell me that you have separate breakers for lighting and power.

This then means that the best option is to employ your idea somewhere in the cable between your machine and the cooker switch.

You can Isolate it at any time with that switch (provided it is double pole)

Take care to over engineer the "earth" connections to ensure a good low resistance at the machine and ensure connections are tight or they will get hot.

You can get "adaptable boxes" suited to this from your electrical supplier. Consider using a double pole contactor or SSR if available


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## profspudhed (Mar 18, 2011)

thanks. i wish there were separate breakers but no, there is a single (possibly bacolite) fusebox containing one 5A one 15A and one 30A fuse. one switch on the fusebox and one on the single breaker, whole house on or whole house off, no inbetweens. at a guess id say this house was redone by a DIYer in the late 60s/early 70s and has never been touched since, but the rent is cheap so here i am.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Without. Being a killjoy and just by reading your post , I would not go and mess with your electrical installation as by your description it sounds potentially hazardous .

Simple method would be wemo it +contactor +Fuse(s)......RCD optional

Anything else .....Oh yeah ELECTRICITY KILLS !

http://www.belkin.com/uk/F7C043-/p/P-F7C043/


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## eusty (Dec 6, 2016)

Does the machine take 30 amps? If not then you can always derate the fuse in the consumer unit and use a relay. If not then you will have to use a contactor.

It's safe and easy to do, if you are competent......

Posted by Tapatalk


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Is the cabling grey plastic covered OR black rubber ??? If it is the latter I would leave well alone. Even with old grey plastic and the "aged" equipment

box and fuses it is in desperate need of rewiring. Has your landlord had the electrics tested and given you a certificate ?


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## Brewer in training (Feb 7, 2015)

Sounds like the wiring needs testing.......... And rewiring SAFELY...........

But back to the more important problem at hand!

What machine is it?

I know the Gaggia D90 is designed for a 30amp feed. But if you disconnect one of the heating element circuits it can run safely on a 13amp supply with no issues. Takes a few minutes longer to heat up, but nothing major!

Might be worth investigating if this is suitable?

It's the heating element that draws the current so it might be possible to replace it with a suitable alternative.......

But stay away from the dodgy electrics.....

Or invent a fault that requires an electrician to inspect and let him tell your landlord it's overdue a re wire????????

Good luck!


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

The machine spec. plate will tell you what the power loading is. If the plate is missing / unreadable, then the base of the boiler element should have the element rating stamped on it.

A compact 2 group will not exceed 20 amps...may well be under 13 amps (ie 3000 watts 230v element).

PS Fiamma machines have either a 3000w 4 pole element or a 3500w 6 pole element.


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## Skezza (Sep 9, 2014)

I think like anything if you took proper precautions you'd be alright with your suggestion. But as an alternative have you considered using a serial power supply instead?


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Personally, I'd get a professional in to run through the options.

Although we have electricians on the forum, there is no way they can assess the state of the electrics without seeing and testing it in person.

They will be the first to tell you this also.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

*Quote from internet ! ---*



*
Landlords are required by law to ensure:*


That the electrical installation in a rented property is safe when tenants move in and maintained in a safe condition throughout its duration.

That a House in Multiple Occupation (HMO) has a periodic inspection carried out on the property every five years. 
If your property is not an HMO, you are not legally obliged to do this. However, we recommend that a periodic inspection and test is carried out by a registered electrician on your rental properties at least every five years.

That any appliance provided is safe and has at least the CE marking (which is the manufacturer's claim that it meets all the requirements of European law).


To meet these requirements a landlord will need to regularly carry out basic safety checks to ensure that the electrical installation and appliances are safe and working.

Those are the issues for the landlord - who often skip them - look for a dated inspection certificate on the fuse box - I doubt it has one.

When you say hooked up - do you mean on a plug or hard wired - a plug wont be safe as its over 13amps.

because of the 30amps - you should get a qualified sparks to sort it out for you, the options would be to get a remotely controlled circuit braker (would require a new fuse box) - alternatively your looking for a remote 30amp socket, but get a sparks to test the existing wiring circuit - often the cable is not up to spec -and then as Glen said get a sparks out to supply the options.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I'm in the building trade (plasterer) and have seen some really dodgy wiring... One house had live neutral and earth wires - they were getting shocks of switch covers..

My advice, if you aren't a sparky then get one in the do the work. You do it, you take the chance of killing yourself. if that doesn't bother you and it blows up then you won't be insured as the work won't be signed off.


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## profspudhed (Mar 18, 2011)

jimbojohn55 said:


> *Quote from internet ! ---*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i hooked it into the mains, well i spurred off the mains into a 30A cooker switch which i mounted on the wall and connected it to that anyway. sadly im a dirt poor bum who only has his equipment through lucking out over the years so i cant afford a sparky sadly, much like the reason im stuck in a house with electrics like this, the rent is cheap, although it does seem a bit odd that such a huge letting agency allow such a place to be let out, but i shouldnt be surprised the fire alarm was broken when i moved in too, but dont worry, they take care of the important stuff, last inspection they repainted the window sills outside!

But yeah to give you an idea of how old/bad the electronics in this house are the mains wires are red black and green rather than the standard blue brown green/yellow we usually see. as for not being insured, im not worried, i dont have insurance (never really seemed much point as i rent) in any case while not electricians i do know a plumber who knows a little about electrics so ill possibly get him to check it over, id guess fitting a coffee machine is not that different from fitting a boiler really


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## Brewer in training (Feb 7, 2015)

If you are living in rented accommodation the onus is on the landlord to maintain the property in a SAFE condition.

If you tell the landlord the fuse keeps blowing for the sockets they will be required to have them checked and rectified for you.

So if you tell them the fuse keeps blowing and you have to keep resetting or rewiring it they should arrange an inspection..........

The fact it might not be happening is a grey area.......


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Where and what did you spur off, what size is the cable? Your fuse (s)do not blow at their rating, they can go way over before they blow.

is could be more than the cable can carry resulting in a fire.

What you have done contravenes the Electrical Regulations and is illegal. Having your plumber friend in is also NOT permitted.

Any alterations should be done by a qualified/ registered electrician who is then responsible for the testing of all the circuits and equipment and providing certificates.

Your negligence could impact on other people or neighbours properties


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## DJA (Nov 22, 2016)

profspudhed said:


> i hooked it into the mains, well i spurred off the mains into a 30A cooker switch which i mounted on the wall ... to give you an idea of how old/bad the electronics in this house are the mains wires are red black and green rather than the standard blue brown ...


I strongly recommend you get your own smoke alarm (even though it's the landlords legal duty) for the sake of your own safety


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

How old is the wiring? last I heard the wiring has to be replaced every 25 years. If you own your own home that isn't an issue unless you come to sell etc. In rented I'm pretty sure it has to be done by law? I could be wrong there - but I would certainly be worried if it wasn't.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

profspudhed said:


> i hooked it into the mains, well i spurred off the mains into a 30A cooker switch which i mounted on the wall and connected it to that anyway. sadly im a dirt poor bum who only has his equipment through lucking out over the years so i cant afford a sparky sadly, much like the reason im stuck in a house with electrics like this, the rent is cheap, although it does seem a bit odd that such a huge letting agency allow such a place to be let out, but i shouldnt be surprised the fire alarm was broken when i moved in too, but dont worry, they take care of the important stuff, last inspection they repainted the window sills outside!
> 
> But yeah to give you an idea of how old/bad the electronics in this house are the mains wires are red black and green rather than the standard blue brown green/yellow we usually see. as for not being insured, im not worried, i dont have insurance (never really seemed much point as i rent) in any case while not electricians i do know a plumber who knows a little about electrics so ill possibly get him to check it over, id guess fitting a coffee machine is not that different from fitting a boiler really


If it helps - I'm a tight git and always did my own electrics up until the point I lost sleep worrying about the elec shower I installed and it being used by my wife and kids - at that point I got a sparks in and got him to check what I had done (which passed his checks fortunatly) - Having said this I worked for a sparks as an unqualified jobber for 6 months - a lot of the domestic work we did was fixing diy work that had blown fuses burnt out wiring and on two occasion's set fire to the property. Even after six months of working for a sparks I still didn't have the knowledge to spec electrical solutions, what I would recommend is that you don't come up with a solution and if the 30 amp socket is connected to a black and red 13amp socket it wont be safe - when doing electrical certificates of wiring the old red and black wiring always failed - its going to be at least 40yrs old and likely to be badly earthed.

The final point is the sparks I worked for was called out by the police to a domestic address to find an electrical fault - when he got there it turned out a young mum had been killed by a faulty extension lead while jet washing, Its never worth the risk.


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## Sean (Jun 20, 2014)

A spark. Some sparks. Surely?


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## bonoeuf (Jan 8, 2017)

If your machine is a single group head, I would be very surprised if it needed anything more than a 13a supply. You need to find out what power rating it is before you do anything. I have a Sanremo Treviso and it came with a 13a plug attached. I used a timer fused spur (Screwfix) on my existing socket circuit and hard wired it into that. Comes on an hour before I get up. It works the same as a central heating timer. You can set each of the seven days differently if you wish. All comments regarding getting it checked are of course valid, as it is best not to burn the house down.


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