# Upgrade from Gaggia Classic



## Maidop (Mar 13, 2013)

Overwhelmed by choice...

i have used a Gaggia Classic with a Dualit Burr grinder for about a hundred years, have always planned to upgrade when I had the money... And now I have the money (nice).

I'm a coffee enthusiast, although not at the obsessive level, I love good coffee, can recognise bad coffee and would like to improve. I roast my own beans, bought from hasbean, in a popcorn maker, with not bad results. Mostly simple roasts, just into second crack, usually manage to get good consistent results. I use the Gaggia Classic daily, and have been happy with it, I pull at least 2 double shots each morning, and then several times a week I work on perfecting my flat white skills (it's the milk that is really pushing me into a new machine). At work I drink any old crap that's put in front of me... But by choice use my own beans and an aeropress.

I've got my heart set on the Vario grinder, I have played with one and have a friend with one who I can get advice from and share notes with, and that leaves the machine... Total budget is around the £1000 mark, so I've got £700 - £800 to throw at a machine.

I've scoured the forums for advice, but frankly I'm overwhelmed by the options... And so wondered if any of you had any current advice or thoughts?


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

At that price range, new, a Fracino Cherub. Or possibly an Expobar.

Second hand? Depends what'sa round. If you can find a second hand Olympia Cremina, I'd thoroughly recommend that (they are so simple and well made that they last forever - new they are a ridiculous price).


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Cherub in that price range. Keep an eye on 2nd hand market for used Mazzer grinders.

You could save for a little longer and dip into Londinium / Expobar territory (depending on what you are after)


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## Maidop (Mar 13, 2013)

I've been looking at the Francino Machines - loving the look of the cherub and the myespresso piccino - what's the feeling between a dual boiler and a HX, especially if it's the perfect flat white I'm aiming for? I figure they're UK based and I read tons of positive stuff about their customer service, which is all good IMO

Any reason why a Mazzer over the Vario?


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## Maidop (Mar 13, 2013)

Just stumbled across an Expobar Office Leva for £890 which seems good value for a HX machine - any thoughts?


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Maidop said:


> I've been looking at the Francino Machines - loving the look of the cherub and the myespresso piccino - what's the feeling between a dual boiler and a HX, especially if it's the perfect flat white I'm aiming for? I figure they're UK based and I read tons of positive stuff about their customer service, which is all good IMO


 Although the Piccino is dual boiler, the Cherub is regarded as the better machine as it has better temperature stability and loads of steam power. The Piccino is smaller, which attracts some buyers, but the general consensus is it is definitely worth paying the extra hundred or so and getting the Cherub.

On more sophisticated machines with PID control, Dual Boiler can offer the advantage of easily adjustable temperature. HX machines are generally (although not in this case) slightly cheaper than Dual Boilers and, in some cases, offer more steam power.


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## series530 (Jan 4, 2013)

Having researched extensively myself on the ground that the Classic is far from ideal for milk based drinks I finally went for a Cherub. It's very early days but I put some early thoughts on the Fracino section of this site if you haven't already seen it.

The Cherub isn't perfect but it is a lot of machine for the money and, IMHO, it looks pretty good on a work top as well.

Should you decide to take the Cherub route you will find plenty of dealers on here who will offer a sizeable reduction in price off RRP.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think the Cherub, or if you like a retro look, then the Fracino Heavenly. there was one company online selling them well within your price point

http://www.thecoffeebean-vanandroaster.co.uk/Heavenly---Cherub.html

grinders, most on here will point you at a Mazzer (second hand) or a Vario. Both have their good points and bad points. You could also look at a Eureka mignon which is less expensive than a VArio, and will comfortably match it in every department, and surpass it in many.........but of course, thats just my humble opinion!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Maidop said:


> Overwhelmed by choice...


Also had a Classic with Dualit grinder for years. I upgraded to a Silvia and Vario. Silvia was a big step up from the Classic but the single boiler made steaming milk a pain as was the lack of fine control of temp etc. If you can, have a look at whatever floats your boat in the flesh if you can. Places like Bella Barista can do this for the machines they stock. A machine like the Expobar offers great value for money - best with PID. If it's above budget, the forum is a good place to look for well cared for second hand.


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## Maidop (Mar 13, 2013)

Just measured up the space I'd need on my work top for the cherub... IT'S HUGE!

the extra couple of hundred for the expobar suddenly makes sense...


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

The difference between the two machines appears to be less than a couple of inches in width and an inch in depth. This doesn't seem a huge difference in size if this is your differentiator for the additional spend.


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## Maidop (Mar 13, 2013)

The expobar is 8cm narrower, I reckon that would make quite a difference, I think it's a smaller looking machine too, less imposing than the cherub, which is a big black box...

surely it's all about the looks?


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

The Exobar does look less imposing and is a better looking machine.

I'm hoping that my Cherub wont look too big in our kitchen. Guess I'll find out tomorrow.


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

Before it arrived I worried that our Heavenly might look too big but it actually "nestles" quite nicely in a corner although it's at a 45° angle which contributes to making it less imposing I think.

Steve.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

That doesn't look out of place at all

I have plenty of space in the kitchen and the 45 degree angle gives me another thought for location


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## Maidop (Mar 13, 2013)

That looks fine in fact... At the risk of sounding a bit like a stalker... Can someone take a further back shot so I can convince my wife that it will look ok?


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

Agreed, and just to give some scale that's just a standard 600mm (2 feet in old money) worktop. Furthermore I think the Heavenly is slightly larger than the Cherub. Hopefully you can relax a bit now, although you'll have a slight relapse when it arrives because with the packaging it WILL look huge.









Steve.


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

Maidop said:


> That looks fine in fact... At the risk of sounding a bit like a stalker... Can someone take a further back shot so I can convince my wife that it will look ok?


Just heading home now so I'll do it within the hour hopefully.

Steve.


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

Et voila.

Steve.


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## SweeneyTodd (Jan 4, 2013)

I've had both Cherub and Expobar in the same kitchen within a short space of time.

The cherub was all stainless steel with the rounded drip tray so perhaps may have looked less intrusive than a stock cherub with black sides and square fronted drop tray.

If I'm completely honest, although the Expobar Office leva is narrower, I don't think it looks much smaller than the cherub in my kitchen - partly because the Expobar drip tray is bigger/deeper so slightly more " in your face".

As I've said elsewhere, I much prefer the look of the Expobar over the cherub.

Also, on the talk of the HX running hot, my routine is turn the machine on for 45-60 mins to warm properly then before I grind for the first time I do a 30 sec flush. There's a bit of steam that comes out in the first seconds and by the end of that flush the water is pouring evenly and so I assume at the right temp. Thereafter, I don't bother with any further flushes unless I've left the machine idle for any more than ten minutes - and then only a quick 5 second flush. I'm happy with the espressos I'm producing using this routine.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Cherub arrived this morning and is now unpacked and working. I need to get the last bits of protective plastic from around the screws on the top. Sods law - the only allen key missing from my set was the one that I need and the imperial nearest fit was slightly too big ! It would be a nice touch for Fracino to remove the film but I realise that it protects the finish and there would be a time overhead to remove the film.

Mrs WD came into the kitchen and wasn't alarmed by the size of the machine so thats good. Now to try it out


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

working dog said:


> Cherub arrived this morning and is now unpacked and working.
> 
> Mrs WD came into the kitchen and wasn't alarmed by the size of the machine so thats good. Now to try it out


Trust you've made Mrs WD her favourite coffee to reassure her the expense was worth it!


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## Maidop (Mar 13, 2013)

This forum is causing an awful lot of envy...


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Trust you've made Mrs WD her favourite coffee to reassure her the expense was worth it!


Yeah, brew a nice one to get Mrs WD onside. I have to say that although I'm the prime mover with regard to coffee equipment in our house, my wife has taken no convincing whatsoever on the benefits. She'll still have the odd instant rather than fire up the Heavenly herself, but if I'm at home it's fresh espresso (or occasionally brewed coffee) all the way. Once the GLW digs the output she won't complain about the "machinery" and expense of making it.

Steve.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

The first coffee out of the machine was for Mrs WD which she enjoyed although I did have the 'how much did it cost ?' question to deflect

The initial things that strike me are :

Hot water on tap saves a whole lot of messing about with the kettle

Although not perfect, my shots are much improved from the off

Steam is impressive - foaming and heating milk is a lot quicker (2 hole steam wand should arrive early next week)

I'm about to enjoy my second americano of the day with Has Bean Jailbreak.

And here it is .....


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## GS11 (Feb 20, 2013)

The typical classic/mc2 footprint works well in most kitchens.

These are of course excellent quality machines being recommended but to play devils advocate....

They are chuffing huge









Imo look out of place in a small kitchen even more so when twinned with the likes of a commercial grinder i.e. mazzer super jolly (another popular recommendation).

All fine if you have benefit of a large kitchen.


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## series530 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nice to see that your unit has arrived and that you are pleased with it.

It looks good on your Worktop. It's also amazing how they do blend in with their surroundings. Ours doesn't feel that large anymore.



working dog said:


> The first coffee out of the machine was for Mrs WD which she enjoyed although I did have the 'how much did it cost ?' question to deflect
> 
> The initial things that strike me are :
> 
> ...


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## Maidop (Mar 13, 2013)

I think I've made a decision... (Just in case you're still interested!)

I think I'm going to buy the vario grinder and for the meantime stick with my gaggia classic, albeit with a rancilio wand. I feel like I've got tons to learn about pulling a good espresso, so I'll practice with what I've got for now, just with a serious grinder upgrade... I cleaned out my trusty Dualit yesterday, only to discover that the burrs where completely bald! No wonder my coffee had been terrible of late. I figure I'll get my espressos up to scratch and then splash out on the new machine when I've got a bit more confidence.

I will however be buying a gene roaster... Just burnt out another popcorn machine!


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Maidop said:


> I think I've made a decision... (Just in case you're still interested!)
> 
> I think I'm going to buy the vario grinder and for the meantime stick with my gaggia classic, albeit with a rancilio wand. I feel like I've got tons to learn about pulling a good espresso, so I'll practice with what I've got for now, just with a serious grinder upgrade... I cleaned out my trusty Dualit yesterday, only to discover that the burrs where completely bald! No wonder my coffee had been terrible of late. I figure I'll get my espressos up to scratch and then splash out on the new machine when I've got a bit more confidence.
> 
> I will however be buying a gene roaster... Just burnt out another popcorn machine!


Going to practice with the vario before you get the gene?

Why a gene btw? I still want to try a hottop.


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## Maidop (Mar 13, 2013)

Mostly because it's a third of the price... But also I'm a bit freaked it by the programming on the hottop (and the behmor), I'm tempted by the gene because of its simplicity, how do you get on with yours?

I'll probably order the gene and the vario at the same time.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Maidop said:


> Mostly because it's a third of the price... But also I'm a bit freaked it by the programming on the hottop (and the behmor), I'm tempted by the gene because of its simplicity, how do you get on with yours?
> 
> I'll probably order the gene and the vario at the same time.


Hmm it's like just more than 3/5 of the price.

Gene is simple, if noisy and it's more of an air roaster than the hottop so probably lends itself to different coffees than the hottop.

It's not bad, not bad at all, but I am curious about a hottop.


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## Maidop (Mar 13, 2013)

RisingPower said:


> Hmm it's like just more than 3/5 of the price.


Where are you getting your hottop price from? Best I've found it is £780 and the gene around £320. I'd be tempted by a hottop for £500... I'd love a Behmor, but not willing to pay £200 postage from australia!

Sounds like I may be coming to you for roasting profiles... Where do you buy your beans?


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Maidop said:


> Where are you getting your hottop price from? Best I've found it is £780 and the gene around £320. I'd be tempted by a hottop for £500... I'd love a Behmor, but not willing to pay £200 postage from australia!
> 
> Sounds like I may be coming to you for roasting profiles... Where do you buy your beans?


Coffeeishop have them for 515 admittedly the p, there's one with shipping from the usa but who knows what customs would be.

Hmm must have been seeing things with the one from the usa, thought it was cheaper..

I normally buy greens from hasbean or rave coffee tbh.


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

Not only customs duty etc to consider but if it comes from USA it will not work on our 240v.

Secondhand Hottops require buying with care. You need careful examination of the interior for 'mal treatment' & the electronics need to be checked out.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

ronsil said:


> Not only customs duty etc to consider but if it comes from USA it will not work on our 240v.
> 
> Secondhand Hottops require buying with care. You need careful examination of the interior for 'mal treatment' & the electronics need to be checked out.


Mm but the coffeeishop.co.uk one looks promising at 515.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

RisingPower said:


> there's one with shipping from the usa but who knows what customs would be.


You'll get charged import tax 2.5-3.5% plus VAT of 20% so that's nearly 25% on the price and you'll get that lumped on to freight charges too. You might be lucky and get away with not being charged but it's a lottery. If an import comes in via a one of the big couriers, you are most likely to get stuffed. I did!


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

The Systemic Kid said:


> You'll get charged import tax 2.5-3.5% plus VAT of 20% so that's nearly 25% on the price and you'll get that lumped on to freight charges too. You might be lucky and get away with not being charged but it's a lottery. If an import comes in via a one of the big couriers, you are most likely to get stuffed. I did!


Actually some goods are exempt from import tax, it's not even as simple as that, dutycalculator is the best bet.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

RisingPower said:


> Mm but the coffeeishop.co.uk one looks promising at 515.


What or who are coffeeishop, exactly?


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

The Systemic Kid said:


> What or who are coffeeishop, exactly?


http://www.freeindex.co.uk/profile(coffee-ishop)_457619.htm

Maybe?


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Have heard very mixed reports about the cheapo Dieckmann Home Roasting System - which Lakeland used to sell - along with green beans.

Not chaff friendly...


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

The Systemic Kid said:


> What or who are coffeeishop, exactly?


This webshop appears to be run by member *CoffeeGeek*

Many of the items have been listed here previously (and some still are) and also in his signature

Items listed here but posted elsewhere should state this or they could be removed from the For Sale listings


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

Glenn said:


> Have heard very mixed reports about the cheapo Dieckmann Home Roasting System.


Steer clear..a real fire hazard. If you risk it you can only use specially prepared, very limited variety beans which appear to have been de-chaffed.


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## Maidop (Mar 13, 2013)

http://coffeeishop.co.uk/products-page/coffee-bean-roaster/hottop-kn-8828p-coffee-roaster/ ok, so this is a bargain, albeit for the P rather than the B. Seems to be uk based, so import tax etc not an issue, any thoughts anyone?


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

Maidop said:


> ok, so this is a bargain, any thoughts anyone?


 Not necessarily so. Circa £500 is the norm for 2nd. hand Hottops when they do come on the market. Is this a new one?. If so does it come with the full makers warranty? Whats the history?. Is it a 'grey' import. New HTs in the UK can only be purchased through Hottop Taiwan

If its 2nd. hand & I were buying I would need to see the interior, the rear & top filters,in particular the drum wear on the rear wall, the drum alignment & inside the rear cover. If you have never seen the inside of a used HT, it can be unbelievable the amount of coffee gunge & burnt chaff build up.

For good maintenance it should be cleaned out inside the works after every 15/20 roasts otherwise the gunge can impact on the motor & the electronics (mother) board.

I have two HTs & they are great roasters but am very well aware of the state they can get into if not cared for. Replacement parts are readily available but do not come cheap.

Just noted the HT for sale shows a 'P' but the description is that of a 'B'????


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