# How long to extract the perfect shot?



## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

Hi there -

I'm around 18 months now using my basic coffee setup - De'Longhi EC152 & Emide burr grinder, and I tend to enjoy around 3 to 4 strong cups of coffee a day - (strong double espresso with lots of milk).

During this time I have experimented with different beans and grind settings, but I have a few questions on how to make the "optimum" coffee...

I've seen advice on the internet about extracting the coffee for @ 21secs, or continuing the extraction until the coffee runs white. I tend to run my machine until the coffee coming out begins to turn white, which normally only takes around 15 secs with my setup. This seems a bit short of the commonly-mentioned 21 secs.

What's the general advice here? Should I worry about how long it takes? Should I be aiming for a longer extraction time than 15secs? If so, should I increase the "fineness" of the grind, or tamp it down harder?, or a bit of both -

Cheers


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

What does it taste like ?

Time can be a factor during the extraction process, but you will find measuring your input and measuring your output with a pair of scales are far better way of improving your extraction.

The most common extraction for esspreso is a 1 to 1.6 ratio over 25-30 seconds .

Eg . 18 grams of coffee weighed in would give you 28.8 grams of esspreso weighed out within 25 to 30 seconds.


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

Thanks for getting back to me.

What does it taste like? Tricky to answer that one! Varies with my mood and the weather, although more often than not it hits the spot.

Never thought about weighing.. I just fill the double shot basket, level off and tamp. Will look into this.

From what you're saying, my extraction time is on the short side. Is there a way to judge / set how fine to grind the coffee?

Cheers


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

A set of jewellers scales off ebay will do the job perfectly , you can get these for around 4-5 pounds


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If your machine had a pressurised basket( i suspect it has ) then attaining and aiming for the ratio s and times mentioned is a little bit academic and its proabaly why your getting fast shots.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> If your machine had a pressurised basket( i suspect it has ) then attaining and aiming for the ratio s and times mentioned is a little bit academic and its proabaly why your getting fast shots.


Weighting in and out and timing won't be a massive help Id its a pressurised basket or pf( suspect all delonghi machines are sold with these )


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

21 secs is far to low. For an 18g double I'd run i'd for anywhere from 27 secs to 32secs, maybe longer depending on the beans.

Like Boots says the pressurised basket is causing your short extraction time. With your current setup it isnt worth swapping it out for a normal one, but if youw ere to consider an upgrade to a better grinder and say a Gaggia Classic in the future then using an unpressurised basket will give you much better results.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Also you say you experimented with different beans but what beans?

Everything in your local supermarket will be old stale commodity grade coffee, including illy and lavazza.

Try looking at the beans subforum here and trying roasters like Rave, HasBean, SmokeyBarn etc to get some freshly roasted coffee, it makes all the difference.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Illy & Lavazza aren't stale, not at the point of sale, leave them open for a few days then yes. They are quite pricey compared to what you can get from UK based roasters.

Coffee, no matter how good or bad, cannot tell the time, it has no concept of how long it should extract for, plus your pressurised basket will probably produce fast shots (the grind isn't controlling the flow as much as a regular shot), so I wouldn't hold too much store in a magic 21, 28, or however many seconds. Use scales as suggested and dial in grind vs shot weight (finer for smaller shots, coarser for longer shots) to steer the flavour balance.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Illy & Lavazza aren't stale, not at the point of sale


Do you not think so long in warehouses/on shelves causes them to degrade to some extent?


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

Thanks to all for advice and comments.

I was getting my beans from a local deli, which were in turn roasted and supplied by Brodies http://www.brodies1867.co.uk/ based nearbye in Edinburgh. They have a good regional reputation I believe and I know the shop's turnover is high so their stock is fresh.

Not sure how people here feel about this.. but I've recently been enjoying the fair trade espresso beans direct from Starbucks online. Bit expensive, but good crema and strong, smooth taste.

Interesting point about the pressurised basket on the De'Longhi - I found an online tip about removing the "pressurising" bit. I've only just done this, and will try a finer grind for my next few cups and see how that goes...

Thanks


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

You cant remove the pressurised bit for the basket, a real basket will have loads of holes at the bottom but if you do that you just have one big hole at the bottom!

The pressurised basket compensates for stale coffee, poor grind and forces crema so you should see lots every time.

With the grinder and machine you have I really wouldn't bother with a standard basket. You can get much better beans than those starbucks ones and the brodies ones though from the suppliers I mentioned earlier.


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

Yeah, compared to the equipment most of you guys are using, it's just a beginner's coffee machine, but making this mod should make a bit of an improvement? http://protofusion.org/wordpress/2010/02/depressurizing-the-ec-155-portafilter/

Will check out alternative beans as well...


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Good to see you're intent on getting the best out of your machine speedy, you're nearly on the right track. Just out of question, how much are you paying for the Brodies or Starwhores beans? Have you tried anything else?

P.S. Around here, Starbucks get's the general concensus of:


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

Scotford said:


> Good to see you're intent on getting the best out of your machine speedy, you're nearly on the right track. Just out of question, how much are you paying for the Brodies or Starwhores beans? Have you tried anything else?
> 
> P.S. Around here, Starbucks get's the general concensus of:
> 
> View attachment 11401


LOL - Thought that might be the case









Currently paying £4.50 + delivery for Starbuck 227g. The Brodies in our local deli varies from £3.50 - £4.30 for 250g. Tried 3 or 4 varieties and tend to favour the stronger, darker "oily" beans.. I did get an assortment of "has-beans" as a gift. I was excited to try but to be honest I found them all to be too dry and "fruity" for my tastes.

If nobody likes Starbucks, maybe I just have poor taste when it comes to coffee!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Do you not think so long in warehouses/on shelves causes them to degrade to some extent?


They're flushed with inert gas & sealed, degredation to some extent? Possibly, but "stale" signifies an identifiable malfunction (mouldy bread, slimy veg, rotten eggs) rather than a subjective idea of what is/isn't the pinnacle of an individual's taste, as opposed to "out of the roaster fresh, then left for 1 to 10 days to degass fresh, then opened & used over the following 2-4 weeks fresh"...which may even show signs of staling in that time especially if not carefully stored?

They may degrade quicker than more recently roasted beans once opened, but suggesting that preserved beans (either frozen, or well preserved) aren't fresh, or are identifiably stale, within typical understanding & practical use scenario, is perhaps misleading.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

speedy181 said:


> If nobody likes Starbucks, maybe I just have poor taste when it comes to coffee!


Your taste is your taste and no-one can say it is wrong. There are much higher quality offerings out there at the same price point though.

Oh, and not all specialty grade roasters are as light as Hasbean, there are lots of roasters who love the dark stuff.


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

Thanks - will keep experimenting.

Just tried a cup with the "de-pressurised" mod and a finer grind. Did take longer to get through and noticeably less crema.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Just remember that having masses of crema isn't the be-all and end-all. A pressurised PF will be forcing loads out of the coffee and may have you thinking that it's the way that every shot should look.


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

Hmmmm.... could be onto something here. Tasted better than before I think.. less bitter?


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

speedy181 said:


> less bitter?


I wouldn't know, sorry.

I'm firmly in the camp of:


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

That mod is stupid*, it doesnt make a pressurised basket into a normal one!

If you are intent on going that route then try this

http://www.buyspares.co.uk/product.pl?pid=1742107

*No dig at you just to clarify, but a dig at the moron who put that guide online as people have come here before having seen that same guide. You'll see on the aprt in the link that they look nothing like eachother.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

MWJB said:


> They're flushed with inert gas & sealed, degredation to some extent? Possibly, but "stale" signifies an identifiable malfunction (mouldy bread, slimy veg, rotten eggs) rather than a subjective idea of what is/isn't the pinnacle of an individual's taste, as opposed to "out of the roaster fresh, then left for 1 to 10 days to degass fresh, then opened & used over the following 2-4 weeks fresh"...which may even show signs of staling in that time especially if not carefully stored?


Are they just so bad because they're over-roasted commodity grade beans then?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Are they just so bad because they're over-roasted commodity grade beans then?


They're not bad, they're not many folk on here's preference, but they're not bad. Your favourite roaster's beans & Evian won't taste as good as Illy Monoarabica Ethiopian Yirgacheffe, or Guatamalan Heuheutenango with good water ;-) Yes, there's a lot of stale over-roasted charcoal on supermarket shelves, but these are typically not the ones that are well preserved & there are beans of a reasonable quality...I wouldn't try & make espresso with them, but you can manual brew them OK.

Here are some Illy Monoarabica (Brazil Cerrado Minero - though, I won't be buying any more, unlike the Yirg, Guatamalan & Costa Rican which I will if I run out of usual beans), some Squaremile, 2 different Hasbean beans...you'll probably figure out which is the Illy, but it's darn close by eye...


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

aaronb said:


> That mod is stupid*, it doesnt make a pressurised basket into a normal one!
> 
> If you are intent on going that route then try this
> 
> ...


Thanks - ordered a couple of those baskets, but they are @20days delivery, so will report back when they arrive.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

speedy181 said:


> Thanks - ordered a couple of those baskets, but they are @20days delivery, so will report back when they arrive.


ouch! Wonder why so long? good luck


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

MWJB said:


> They're not bad, they're not many folk on here's preference, but they're not bad.


You're no fun....









I didn't know Illy etc did SOs, thought it was all just red or black espresso stuff


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> If your machine had a pressurised basket( i suspect it has ) then attaining and aiming for the ratio s and times mentioned is a little bit academic and its proabaly why your getting fast shots.


Ah, just came across this as i was reading 'stuff' my shots are fast about 12 seconds to split 14g into 2 x 14g (2 cups)

It could be the answer to my problem. Vst basket on the way but not a bottomless portafilter, i wish i'd ordered that as well...


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

Mr O said:


> Ah, just came across this as i was reading 'stuff' my shots are fast about 12 seconds to split 14g into 2 x 14g (2 cups)
> 
> It could be the answer to my problem. Vst basket on the way but not a bottomless portafilter, i wish i'd ordered that as well...


Depending on how well the basket works, I'm planning to hack the bottom out of my current portafilter... It has a good metal handle, but the bottom looks like tough plastic, but I have access to power tools...


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## twotone (Jan 13, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> You're no fun....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mate of mine buys his Illy beans from Costco, 4 X 250g packs for a tenner I think, no vat either.

Must get a pack off him, he has a cupboard full of them, uses one of those stove coffee makers, not bad either IMO.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

twotone said:


> Mate of mine buys his Illy beans from Costco, 4 X 250g packs for a tenner I think, no vat either.
> 
> Must get a pack off him


I wouldn't bother.


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

OK, so new basket finally arrived. The mod to open portafilter was easier than I thought. The Delonghi handle unscrews into 2 halves, so you can simply discard the lower half with the plastic basket holder, although I took a hacksaw to mine as I preferred the feel of the complete handle..

So - does it work?

Not yet









No matter what type of grind or tamp I try, I can't seem to avoid mulitiple streams (which suggests channeling?) certainly not the single dark, rich, gloopy stream I've been admiring on various youtube videos.

Any advice on how to improve the situation, or am I just wasting my time, expecting too much from my lowly domestic Delonghi?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Stick a photo up of what you have done to your PF.

What tamper are you using?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What pressure do we think this is running at 15 bar ?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Yup,



*Weight (Kg):*3


*Rated voltage/Frequency (V~Hz):*220/240~50/60


*Input power (W):*1100


*Choose your favourite colour:*Black


*Adjustable steam emission:*✓


*Milk-frothing system:*✓


*Filter holder with crema device:*✓


*Incorporated coffee tamper:*X


*On/off indicator light:*✓


*On/off switch:*✓


*Pump pressure (bar):*15


*Removable drip tray:*✓


*Removable water tank:*✓


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

What grinder is being used?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

You have a very basic burr grinder, so you are going to struggle with distribution.

It's important to keep in mind one basic rule when it comes to water - it will always find the path of least resistance. This means you need a very evenly distributed puck to have any chance of a good extraction.

Find some toothpicks or pins, and a cork or other item to jam them into and familiarise yourself with 'WDT' http://www.home-barista.com/weiss-distribution-technique.html

Then an even, flat tamp. Weight is not important but consistency is. You can tamp at 5lbs or 50lbs so long as you get close to that each time so the variable is consistent.

And if you aren't already using one, get a proper tamper, the plastic jobbies cause a lot channeling.

Edit: Froggie - its in the OP "Emide burr grinder"


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

So a flat burr grinder?

Thought that would give better results than say an MC2 or other lower priced conical burred grinder?

It is a funny looking grinder though.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

froggystyle said:


> So a flat burr grinder?
> 
> Thought that would give better results than say an MC2 or other lower priced conical burred grinder?
> 
> It is a funny looking grinder though.


The MC2 is a step up from many of the tiny flat burr grinders.

I dont know anything about the one in question, but as an example of that you can buy something like a Krups GVX231 for under £40, but it wouldn't compare favorably to the MC2.

Edit: saying that however, I use WDT with my SJ to get a properly even extraction so its not something only required by cheap grinders. If you get channeling its one of the first things to try.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Ahh yes, a google brings up some comments about being a poor grinder in terms of particle size...

Time to bite the bullet and pick something else up.


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

Thanks folks - here's a couple of pics of my modded basket. Note the one behind is how it started out, with a plastic base with 2 holes, and weird rubber/plastic gubbins on the bottom of the basket to artificially build pressure. Also included a pic of my tamper. Out of all my equipment, I'd like to think that the tamper is OK - it's smooth, cold, solid metal - a thing of beauty. Also a pic of my Emide grinder. It's German, and has a tiny hole in the base to make extra adjustment beyond the normal range.









I'm now grinding much finer than ever before. With the old basket, this would have completely choked the machine. But with the new basket the coffee still comes out in multiple streams, and faster than I had hoped. Will experiment a bit more before splashing out more than I paid for the espresso machine on a new grinder...


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

Tried the stirring with a cocktail stick suggestion this morning, but still no joy.

Before I fork out on another grinder (M2 looks quite do-able), is there any commonly-available (supermarket?) brand of pre-ground espresso that you all consider a typical grind consistency for making a good shot? Not particularly bothered about taste here - just want to get some "powder" so I can experiment on getting the mechanics of the flow right??

Thanks


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I think your flogging a dead horse, actually two of them.. Machine and grinder!

Grinder doesn't seem to get the grind right, forget how far it goes to fine, its the particle size i believe causing the issues, bite the bullet and pick up new grinder.

The machine is always going to be what it is, 15 bar pressure, again dump it and get a classic if your budget is tight.

You can play around all day and waste money on bits and pre ground coffee but its just not going to happen to the level your hoping to get.

Keep your eye on ebay and on here for a classic, you can pick them up on ebay for less than £100 but may have to deep clean and replace a couple of little bits, grinders come up on here in fact i think there are two now in the for sales section.


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

Thanks froggystyle. I'm just nervous about getting into a hobby / cult.

But hey - there's worse things to blow your money on. Like that old Kawasaki motorbike I bought for £300, and then wasted a further £800 trying to get it to run right. Never did, and sold it on ebay for £25!


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

Although - this youtube clip suggests something is possible?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Its entirely up to you of course, but ask most on here and they have started with some kind of crappy machine thinking it can produce consistent good results.... then they step up a gear and buy a proper machine.

You don't have to spend big, i picked up a classic and MC2 grinder for less than £150, i waited and watched ebay and this forum and had the cash ready, a couple of simple mods, good clean and your pulling decent shots most of the time!

Cant see the video as work likes to block me from having fun!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Looking at the burrs on this one, it seems to be on par with the MC2.

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?21676-Francino-Piccino-(ASCASO-I-MINI-2)


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

It is possible to eek out an ok shot with the most basic of equipment. 15 bar is a limitation and a result of marketing and pressurised baskets, but it is not going to ruin your shot. The grinder is likely the biggest culprit in your struggles, it looks old, and small flat burrs wear away quickly. Last time I saw a machine that looked like that the burrs were totally smooth to the touch.

Now you could go out and buy a porlex hand grinder for £30-£40, get a decent grind and see how the machine copes. You may even find that you get some decent espresso out of it, you could probably do better than the chains even with your Delonghi. But you will only end up realising that you really like coffee and thats its probably worth saving a bit to get a proper set up









Edit - the link froggy posted is a good grinder for the price, and very similar to the MC2.


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> Looking at the burrs on this one, it seems to be on par with the MC2.
> 
> http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?21676-Francino-Piccino-(ASCASO-I-MINI-2)


AAAAaaaaaarrrrrrgggghhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No damn it! It starts with a grinder... and then a better machine... and then another, and before you know it you're shambling wreck, muttering incoherently about the perfect shot and roasting your own beans - where will it end?!!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

speedy181 said:


> AAAAaaaaaarrrrrrgggghhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No damn it! It starts with a grinder... and then a better machine... and then another, and before you know it you're shambling wreck, muttering incoherently about the perfect shot and roasting your own beans - where will it end?!!


I see you have been lurking on the forum for a while


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

OK - I see a pattern emerging here. Another problem is my current grinder was a prezzie from my wife.

She visited a speciality coffee shop in Edinburgh, and bought it on their advice.


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

Dylan said:


> I see you have been lurking on the forum for a while


What can I say? I have a naturally obsessive personality. I realise this and therefore fear for my sanity.

I should have stuck to Gold Blend.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Cut the wires inside it and say it mysteriously stopped working.


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## bz99s (May 30, 2012)

Speedy I have a grinder for sale in the forum. It would do wonders for you and still has a warranty. Knock a tenner off it as I wouldn't need to post. Comment on the post in the for sale forum if you fancy it!


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

bz99s said:


> Speedy I have a grinder for sale in the forum. It would do wonders for you and still has a warranty. Knock a tenner off it as I wouldn't need to post. Comment on the post in the for sale forum if you fancy it!


Thanks for the heads-up, but still considering my next move... Is that a blade grinder?

Cheers


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## bz99s (May 30, 2012)

No, its a flat burr grinder, there will also be a nice gaggia classic going up for sale shortly as well that would be a perfect match for it!


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## speedy181 (Jan 23, 2015)

Well having started off on my journey to mod my humble delonghi into a bottomless portafilter a few weeks ago, I am now the proud owner of a Gaggia Classic, and two Ascaso grinders!

Before I retired the Delonghi, I thought I would have a final go with it and the new grinder. I have to say that the grinder has made a MASSIVE difference. It is obvious now that my previous Emide grinder was just not up to the job. The Ascaso can grind to the optimum consistency, so the coffee now pours through my delonghi bottomless filter just the way I wanted.. in 1 smooth, beautiful tapering rat's tail over @30 secs. The coffee also tastes much nicer!

Now looking forward to playing with my shiny new Gaggia classic -

Big thanks to all who contributed here with your advice, suggestions, and for talking me into buying my new setup


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Glad to hear of another converted soul. That's one more Pod machine that will be gathering dust on the shop floor


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