# Coffee and wine



## grimpeur (Oct 18, 2013)

The older I get the more I appreciate flavour. As a young man I was never a big fan of food and drink which had complex challenging flavours, examples of which include cheese, wine, olives and even coffee. I am finding that these complex flavours are becoming my favourites!

So it's probably obvious that I am a big fan of coffee, I mean I wouldn't be a member of this forum if I wasn't but over the past 18 months or so I have really started to enjoy wine. It is becoming apparent as I experiment with the different grape varietals that I look for in my wine almost exactly what I look for in my coffee.

For example, my favourite wines at the moment are all whites. Single estate Sauvignon Blanc, Dry Riesling and Pinot Gris from New Zealand. Probably the best example is a 2011 Little Beauty Pinot Gris from the Marlborough region of New Zealand. A fine wine from tiny artisanal winemaker producing tiny lots. It really is incredible. Its all peaches and clean stone fruit upfront with a clearly defined minerality and a crisp, clean acidity. Close your eyes, take a sip and you can almost feel the stony soil under your feet and the crisp, fresh air in your lungs. Awesome.

This is what I love in my coffee. Complex, fresh and clean with firm body and refined acidity and artefacts of 'terroir', experiencing the unique flavours imparted by geography, weather and soil.

I'm curious to hear other opinions and to find out if anyone agrees. Do those of you who enjoy darker roasts, traditional blends and robust espresso and filter coffee look for the same in wine? For example rich, smokey Malbec or similar?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Hi, I also appreciate good wine but only have done the past few years. I've loved good coffee for a lot longer however.

In coffee I go for light-medium roasts by HasBeans standards (never dark, or burnt as I would call it). I drink pretty much anything, but my favourites would be Ethiopian Yirgacheffe Naturals and I tend to shy away a bit from Brazil and Indonesia.

In wine I got hooked on Provence Rose when on holiday there and that started my wine journey. There's a lot of crap ones, but a well made one blows my mind. In reds I drink pretty much anything but probably go for something big and bold, Chateau Musar in Lebanon remains one of my favourite wineries for their philosophy and stonking reds, as well as some unusual whites and roses. Some other reds that knocked my socks off these past 12 months where a rather tasty Ribera del Duero, some natural wines from France (no additives), the entire Gayda range from France, a Cabernet Franc from South Africa and a really earthy spicey Shiraz from Australia, just to name a few.

I really really really want to learn to appreciate whites more, but they just rarely ever hit the spot for me. I can only name 2 that have blown me away in the past 12 months, the San Vincenzo Anselemi Soave from Italy, and the stunning Qupe Marsanne 2010 from USA.

I'm lucky enough to work part time for an independent wine merchant at the moment so I have learnt a hell of a lot about countries, varietal, blends etc but as with coffee there is always so much more to learn. It's also driven up my standards enormously to the point I rarely enjoy a wine under £10, and find it hard to find something I feel is good in a supermarket. I don't drink a lot so am happy with drink less but better.

Sorry, that went on a bit more than I intended.


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## coffeechops (Dec 23, 2013)

I did read that as we age our taste buds become less sensitive, so what we perceive as 'strongly flavoured' reduces over time. This was put forward as the reason why kids can eat fish fingers...

I seem to have followed the same path as you both, though whisky got in the way in the middle. I seem to like not so much fine food as fine drinks, of most sorts - tea, wine, whisky, port, (real) beer as well as coffee, which came first. Don't really mind alcoholic or not as long as the flavour has depth, strength and complexity. So in coffee I like the generally mid roasts, not too light, not too dark; in wine I much prefer red to white, and I'm a fan of deep, full-bodied reds but not, for some reason, Cab Sauv. So something like The Barkly Durif, Jim Barry The MacRae Wood Shiraz, Stellenbosch The Stork, or a big Barolo. Also like the slightly lighter older-world traditional Rioja Gran Reservas (have a bottle of La Rioja Alta 904 1995 I'm saving). Whites I don't get but my missus does, so I get to choose what I like (as does she) which is good.

Whiskies - now then... Love most of the Islays, generally heavily-peated whiskies; the light Speysides don't do it for me. Highland Park is another favourite, and is on offer in Waitrose at the moment  My real favourites are from the Scotch Malt Whisky Society - single cask rather than single malt. Even more distinctive, and often unusual. Also depressingly expensive...

So why liquids rather than foods? No idea.

Colin


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm into wine and whisky as well.

I like my coffee to be medium roasted or slightly either side and in my wines I prefer red to white and often ( though certainly not always) new world over old.

If I had the money I could quite happily drink Ridge and Joseph Swan wines til I die, but not being a millionaire means I often drink Argy malbec like Urban from the Uco valley and increasingly Spanish red's from the lesser known regions which are top value.

When it comes to whisky I tend to play safe with the speysides such as linkwood and macallan, the reason being in the past I've had some from other regions at a tasting that I really didn't like but now can't remember where they came from.

If anybody is thinking of getting more into wine I'd strongly recommend joining the wine society, they're great value and have a massive range to suit all budget's. Their own range is really good as well. As I type I'm drinking the society's Corbieres.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Im a fan of Chateau Musar too. Lidl do some great wines of late, their Malbec at 5.99 is a bargain.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Had a lovely glass of Ridge at a tasting last week, great stuff!

When I get a full time job again I'm considering joining the wine society, the prices are quite competitive and they have some nice bottles.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Im a fan of Chateau Musar too. Lidl do some great wines of late, their Malbec at 5.99 is a bargain.


I've been put off trying chateau Musar by the recent vintages that shops seem to stock. I've heard lot's of people say that it needs at least 8 years bottle age, yet the vintages being sold are often around 2010.

To be honest I find this common with a lot of wines like certain CNDP and Barolo. I look at the vintage and wonder where the average person without a cellar is going to store the bottle for the 10+ years it needs before it starts to open up.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

cold war kid said:


> I've been put off trying chateau Musar by the recent vintages that shops seem to stock. I've heard lot's of people say that it needs at least 8 years bottle age, yet the vintages being sold are often around 2010.


I can assure you that isn't the case - the latest vintage of Chateau Musar Red is 2005. 2006 should have been released last year but hasn't yet, as they felt it wasn't ready. 2007 is going to be released in the next month or two. These are released as ready to drink, although the reds and whites age very well and the older vintages are amazing, yet expensive.

There are 3 ranges of Musar, the 'Jeune' (very young, retail around £10), 'Hochar Pere et Fils' (mid range, about £12-14) and the main range described above (£20+). The 'Hochar Pere et Fils' is a few years ahead of the main range (latest is 2008, 2009 will probably come out soon) and gives you an idea of what the main vintage will taste like when it comes out a few years later. They're good full bodied wines ready to drink now. I love these and when I can afford to spend that much on a bottle it is a solid choice.

The Jeune range has a different composition of grapes, I really need to reassess my notes on this before making comment but they're easy to drink wines good on a hot summers day.

If you like rose wines then the Jeune rose is a really dark red colour rose heavy on fruits, and the main Ch Musar rose is a beautiful pink rose with a very nice full flavour. Highly recommend.

On other Lebanese wines M&S currently have Chateau Ka entry lever wine at £9 (easy drinking classic Bordeaux) and the rather interesting Ksara Clos de st Alphons at £10 (much more depth of flavour, jammy).

I can also highly recommend Chateau Kefraya and IXSIR Altitudes if you see them around, a bit more pricey but really good Lebanese wines.

Anyway I'm waffling again...


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## coffeechops (Dec 23, 2013)

Useful, thanks. I've heard a lot about Chateau Musar but I confess I've never tried it.... I'll be keeping this snippet in mind if I see it available.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Good to know Aaron. I'll try it soon.

Massaya is another good Lebanese wine that is ready to drink on release. Very easy drinking though perhaps not incredibly complex.

When I said I was put off Musar by the lack of bottle age I was talking about the main range, I wasn't aware of the other's that you mention.

I seem to have a natural predisposition to wines with a bit of aging and often find when I'm drinking the occasional nice bottle as a treat that I wish I'd laid it down for a few years.Ridge Lytton Springs is a good example. I think it's released around 4 years after vintage but doesn't hit it's stride for a few years after that for my tastes.

I can't really afford Monte Bello but the one occasion I've had a glass I thought " this will be stunning in about 10 years".


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Yeah it must have been the young Musar you saw available, as I say 2010 isn't going to be released for another few years!

Corks Out are a huge retailer of Musar if you want some, they have a lot of vintages and fair prices. Waitrose had the 2005 at one point too, which is a good vintage to try.

I really want to try Massaya but never seen it for sale.

I tried that Ridge Lytton Springs 2010 last week actually, stunning wine already. As you say will cellar very well, but far too expensive for me at the moment


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Majestic used to stock it, it used to be 2 for £17.50 per bottle


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Ive been through a 'wine phase' Grabbing as many Decanter medal winning wines as possible, couple of years ago I had up to 60 bottles. We did the decanter wine tasting events a couple of times, those were fun! I have a more modest 15 or so in the celler now mainly from holidays in Italy.

Sadly its now all about beer really!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Going through an Italian Job phase - got made an offer I couldn't refuse last year on a mixed box and really enjoyed them Apparently, the Italians produce more wine than the French?? Really enjoying some Amarone at the moment - lovely plummy fruit without heavy tannins. Also got some Falabella Bianco - apricot/peachy nose - fabulous.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Majestic used to stock it, it used to be 2 for £17.50 per bottle


Definite thumbs up for Majestic - they do some cracking deals. Just before Christmas they were discounting a lot of their wines, including premium, by 30%. I get flash offers from them - just sign up on the website. Most recent was a case of six reds from two single French estates for £90.00.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Majestic have the Musar 'Hochar' at £11.99 as well which is an awesome deal.

I would say though at full price some of their wines maybe arent best value for money, and the "sales" then put it in a good price. still better than the tricks some of the supermarkets pull with their wine pricing.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Majestic used to stock it, it used to be 2 for £17.50 per bottle


That's a cracking deal. The wine society are usually one of the cheapest and it's £20 a bottle.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

aaronb said:


> Yeah it must have been the young Musar you saw available, as I say 2010 isn't going to be released for another few years!
> 
> Corks Out are a huge retailer of Musar if you want some, they have a lot of vintages and fair prices. Waitrose had the 2005 at one point too, which is a good vintage to try.
> 
> ...


It's probably not much help to you living in Norwich, but I got my Massaya from D. Byrne's finewines in Clitheroe. It was part of one of their Christmas cases.

I think they do delivery if you ring them for about £8, but you'd probably need to buy a case and that would be expensive.

Which merchant do you work for? Can they not get hold of a few bottles?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

a small indie, wont name it on here. I dunno, will enquire!

Do you feel the wine society membership is worth it? I'm very tempted...


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

aaronb said:


> a small indie, wont name it on here. I dunno, will enquire!
> 
> Do you feel the wine society membership is worth it? I'm very tempted...


I find it good for the extra things you wouldn't get at a normal merchant, such as being bales to lay cases of wine down for a small fee and being able to choose a cellar plan that you pay monthly into.

Also occasionally they get special one off purchases. Before Xmas I got a bottle of 82 Rioja and a 64 CNVE especial for a bargain price. They'd bought all the stocks from a restaurant that had gone bust with cellars set into the side of the mountain to was situated on. Absolutely impeccable wine and if it hadn't have been they have a no quibbles returns policy for faulty bottles ( which I've only ever had to use once ).


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## SteveCollins (Mar 20, 2014)

I have found that as I grow older, I have become more of a fan of the darker, richer, perhaps even more complex flavors. I have to admit that I will eventually revert back to imported beer I am sure, but for now I am enjoying exploring some of the darker Chilean reds


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## Taylor The Latte Boy (Dec 9, 2013)

I love red wine, and can definitely relate with you that as I get older I appreciate much more of the culinary world, I'm only 25 but have changed so much since my earlier 20s. I used to be quite picky with food but now (apart from fish/sea food) I can name every food I avoid on one hand. One thing I noticed I learned to appreciate as I approached my mid 20s is whisky, and not just bourbon.


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## Alfow (May 9, 2014)

A nice Rioja for me everytime please. Long ago converted from Stella and Tequila! Still can't get my head/stomach around whiskey though - maybe one day?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Cant beat a bit of cognac... Always treat myself to nice bottle at Xmas!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Whisky I've liked since my mid 20s when I first got into single malts. As I've got older I've started to like the smokier/peatier ones more compared to the smother ones.

A definitely red wine and also good dark chocolate.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> A definitely red wine and also good dark chocolate.


A good red wine and decent dark choccy go together so well don't you think!?


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Whisky I've liked since my mid 20s when I first got into single malts. As I've got older I've started to like the smokier/peatier ones more compared to the smother ones.
> 
> A definitely red wine and also good dark chocolate.


If you like "peaty" try LAPHROAIG from Islay, extremely peaty.

Two GOOD red wine's available at Sainsburys Spanish red PRIORAT full bodied and robust aprox £10

The other one is CONDADO DE HAZA Ribera Del Duero Sip and savour Aprox £18 Look for both when on offer (not very often)

For a crisp dry side of medium white Try Vina Esmeralda Torres.

I can fully recommend all of these, although tastes vary I do not think many people would not enjoy these.


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

El carajillo said:


> If you like "peaty" try LAPHROAIG from Islay, extremely peaty.


The Laphroaig Quarter Cask is just bonkers smokey/peaty. It's like putting your taste buds in a bonfire!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Geordie Boy said:


> The Laphroaig Quarter Cask is just bonkers smokey/peaty. It's like putting your taste buds in a bonfire!


I've had the standard Laphroaig and really liked it. I've also tried Ardbeg which I really liked. Once drinking it sat next to a peat fire on west cost of Galway in the middle of no where in a thunder and hail storm....which is as peaty as it gets.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

El carajillo said:


> If you like "peaty" try LAPHROAIG from Islay, extremely peaty.
> 
> Two GOOD red wine's available at Sainsburys Spanish red PRIORAT full bodied and robust aprox £10
> 
> ...


Thanks Frank, it's great getting recommendations, I might give these a whirl.


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I've had the standard Laphroaig and really liked it. I've also tried Ardbeg which I really liked. Once drinking it sat next to a peat fire on west cost of Galway in the middle of no where in a thunder and hail storm....which is as peaty as it gets.


Things always taste nicer when they bring back holiday memories


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Geordie Boy said:


> Things always taste nicer when they bring back holiday memories


Know what you mean....I'm tempted to nip out and buy a bottle just thinking about it.


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## martyistheman (Jan 24, 2014)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I've had the standard Laphroaig and really liked it. I've also tried Ardbeg which I really liked. Once drinking it sat next to a peat fire on west cost of Galway in the middle of no where in a thunder and hail storm....which is as peaty as it gets.


There's a blended malt, made from several Islay whiskies, called Big Peat. It's lovely. Also, Caol Ila, another Islay malt, is tremendous.

Then there is Bowmore Darkest. A 15 year old peated malt, matured or finished in sherry casks. Best of both worlds.


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## welshrarebit (Apr 17, 2014)

Taste definitely changes, tend to go for darker, deeper flavours more than I ever used to. Hated cheese, olives, spirits, dark chocolate growing up, but can't get enough of them now.

Big fan of rum these days, a bottle of El Dorado 15yr got me hooked. Saying that just opened a Single Malt Glenfarclas 15 Year Old, very sherried but lovely flavour.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

In one single malt whisky book, it described the 15yr old Glenfarclas as, 'going down singing hymns'. Does, doesn't it?


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## welshrarebit (Apr 17, 2014)

I'll second that








Been looking at some of the japanese offerings, any experience of Yamazaki or the likes?


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## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

For a big fat smoky rusty nails whopping mouthful of sticky Islay how about 15yr old Lagavulin! Love it! Don't forget the English though, all ye whisky lovers. http://www.englishwhisky.co.uk/ just up the road from me in Norfolk, great stuff, some superb peaty whisky too. And it's well reviewed in the Whisky Bible too.....drinking a little (?) of their Distillers Elect as I write this ....


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## welshrarebit (Apr 17, 2014)

IanP said:


> For a big fat smoky rusty nails whopping mouthful of sticky Islay how about 15yr old Lagavulin! Love it!


I could probably stretch my budget to a sample.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I really do love Lagavulin and Talisker as well, I got the taste for Islay malts and island ones too from my Dad a long long time ago, we used to have all sorts in as he was travelling all over very regularly and took advantage of the duty free shops.

Another one I almost forgot about as well is Caol Ila well worth a try.


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

I've got a bottle of the 16yo Lagavulin to be opened so looking forward to that now


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

Geordie Boy said:


> I've got a bottle of the 16yo Lagavulin to be opened so looking forward to that now


This is not something that you should do alone! Send your address and we'll come and assist in that task!

Lagavulin is certainly my favourite single malt. Getting very pricy though!


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

I was wondering whether I'm giving a good impression stating that I'm looking forward to drinking whiskey at 6 in the morning


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Drinking Scotch of that kind of calibre is always done at the exact right time.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

I'm well into the peaty drops too. Hardly ever drink Scotch these days though. My favourite is Laphroaig as a base level drop and for something special I'd go for Lagavulin 16, maybe something older.

I did get to try a single grain whiskey a while back that was 30yr old and selling at £100 a shot and I was seriously impressed by how complex it was. Wouldn't like to be buying it at that price though!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

£100 a shot!!! At 5ml a shot that's £1,400 a bottle. Bought my father in law a bottle of 25 yr old Macallan when he retired. See it now retails at £500 - ouch. Mind you, the anniversary 50yr old is a snip at £31,500


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

I've always thought there must be a rule of diminishing returns when you start to spend more and more on whiskey. Saying that, one of the best whiskeys I've tasted is midleton very rare, at around 120 for the bottle it's cheap compared to the above! It's also a blended whiskey ( don't laugh, it's a fine example of how good they can be). It's so smooth and fruity. Even my wife likes it and she hates whiskey. Lovely stuff.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Charliej said:


> I really do love Lagavulin and Talisker
> 
> as well, I got the taste for Islay malts and island ones too from my Dad a long long time ago, we used to have all sorts in as he was travelling all over very regularly and took advantage of the duty free shops.
> 
> Another one I almost forgot about as well is Caol Ila well worth a try.


Another vote for Talisker smooth and slightly peppery, got to sample this one when moored at Carbost near the distillery while diving around Western Isles


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

The Systemic Kid said:


> £100 a shot!!! At 5ml a shot that's £1,400 a bottle.


Yeah that's what the bar was selling it for. Bear in mind that places like that mark up by about 50% at least when it comes to the top level of spirits. Well, that and the fact that grain whiskey is becoming one of the priciest spirits due to the fact that they only really start maturing at 25 years.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

(A 25ml shot, that is...)


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Yo whiskey lovers, this is the wine thread!









I find myself getting more and more into whites recently, although they have to be good and I tend to stay away from the ordinary (not a fan of sauv blanc etc). I had 'Monster Monsters Attack' Riesling last night, bit sweet for my palate but 2 years ago I'd never have drunk it.

Got a bottle of Luis Canas Reserve Rioja for tonight, I haven't had a nice Rioja for ages so looking forward to it. It's going with some ribs.


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