# New Espresso machine help



## wito (May 10, 2016)

Hi folks, im looking for a new espresso machine

coming from a la pavoni i still want to keep it as a lever machine

thinking of getting a Bezzera strega TOP or a Quick Mill Veloce, what do you guys think about these two machines

or is there something in the 1500-1900€ price range to consider?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

wito said:


> Hi folks, im looking for a new espresso machine
> 
> coming from a la pavoni i still want to keep it as a lever machine
> 
> ...


Why bother with a TOP version of a Strega. Either you can plumb in or you cannot! And it has been argues many times before, but a Strega is not a true lever machine. Yes, it has a lever but it also uses a combination of additional pump and spring to pull the shot. Someone on here very recently bought a Veloce new and seems to like it.


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## wito (May 10, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> Why bother with a TOP version of a Strega. Either you can plumb in or you cannot! And it has been argues many times before, but a Strega is not a true lever machine. Yes, it has a lever but it also uses a combination of additional pump and spring to pull the shot. Someone on here very recently bought a Veloce new and seems to like it.


hmm just found it out that it is not a real lever, what a bumer

so should i go for the veloce or is there something to reconsider?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Just because I said it is not a real lever in purist terms, should not put you off looking at it. It has been debated many many times and those who like them think they are brilliant. But, to me, the whole point of a lever is to allow spring pressure to pull the shot, unless you are looking at La PAv style arrangements. From time to time, second hand Londiniums come up on here and many widely regard (except Strega owners) them to be about the best that you can buy. With a lever having so simple a working mechanism, they go on and on with careful maintenance. Another couple of posts and you will be able to see the sales forum.

There is not much else that I am aware of in your price bracket


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> Why bother with a TOP version of a Strega. Either you can plumb in or you cannot! And it has been argues many times before, but a Strega is not a true lever machine. Yes, it has a lever but it also uses a combination of additional pump and spring to pull the shot. Someone on here very recently bought a Veloce new and seems to like it.


Please don't post another link to that vid. Don't think I've recovered from the last time I saw it yet. ?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ashcroc said:



> Please don't post another link to that vid. Don't think I've recovered from the last time I saw it yet.


Everyone should see that at least once in their lives.....but I agree with you on this occasion!


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## wito (May 10, 2016)

actually i can see the sales forum, and someone is selling a 2016 londinium 1, but dont really know much about this machine


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Just ask the op any questions you may have on the thread matey....I am sure he will reply


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## wito (May 10, 2016)

nah looking and thinking about it, i dont really want a used machine with no warranty(and some scratches) for that money, and the shipping of that 40kg monster in to my country will be a killer









guess its again veloce vs strega


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

What country are you in?


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## wito (May 10, 2016)

currently moving from the czech republic to slovakia


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

There are several sellers on the continent. They tend to be what we call box shifters. by that, for example, Rocket and many other manufacturers only sell their products through authorised dealers which gives them some control over price. If you buy one from a non authorised idler, then the manufacturers warranty may well be void and if you have a problem, then you are at the mercy of the firm you bought it from. there are many documented examples of people having enormous problems, but also some examples of where they get good service. i guess there are two problems to get over. First, it being delivered without damage and secondly it breaking down within warranty


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Or get a Londinium, Reiss ships worldwide and offers amazing support


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## wito (May 10, 2016)

hmm let me just sort out which machine should i get

and then i can figure out what box shifters are and if there are some around me


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## wito (May 10, 2016)

coffeechap said:


> Or get a Londinium, Reiss ships worldwide and offers amazing support


yeah would love to if new ones didnt cost 2500+€ thats way over my current budget


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Fair enough


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I know you probably do not want to hear this, but if you think about it, whatever machine you buy will want to last you a very long time, without the desire to upgrade again as you know you have compromised initially. Would delaying the purchase and saving up to allow you a wider choice be a possibility, or do you need to do this now? The QM venice is probably your best bet if you want to get it now...the Londinium if you can wait


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## wito (May 10, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> I know you probably do not want to hear this, but if you think about it, whatever machine you buy will want to last you a very long time, without the desire to upgrade again as you know you have compromised initially. Would delaying the purchase and saving up to allow you a wider choice be a possibility, or do you need to do this now? The QM venice is probably your best bet if you want to get it now...the Londinium if you can wait


well i will think about it, im not really in a hurry, just didnt expected that i had to increase my budget in such extend









are there any things/flaws which i should be aware of before deciding to get a veloce/londiniumR?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

wito said:


> well i will think about it, im not really in a hurry, just didnt expected that i had to increase my budget in such extend
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Look at it pragmatically. You're just cutting out steps in the upgrade path is all.


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## wito (May 10, 2016)

ok increasing my budget









but what if i throw a profitec pro800, quick mill achille in the mix









as far as i know only the profitec is not a hx, so the temps and consistency should be better on this one? (if the rest is not calibratet as it should be







)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

wito said:


> ok increasing my budget
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From memory, the Achille is more of a commercial with a large (7 litre) boiler. The 800 is a newcomer which a lot of people like but not many over here anyway, own. The reason for that is it is certainly no better than the opposition. If you conducted a poll on here, asking who owned what, the L1 would be the clear winner, and that is for a reason. The Veloce and the L1 share the same group and that is key. No pid is needed.....If you want a lever and are not fussed which one, buy whatever suits you. If you want the best......that said, the current variant of the Londinium may not be best suited to everyone. If you like lighter roasts it handles them very well but does not add anything to darker. I think you are assuming a little that all things are equal, but not the case......the machines you have mentioned are all very different to each other. The current Veloce has a pid, which was not on the original production machine (but was on the prototype) and removed as it added absolutely nowt!


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## wito (May 10, 2016)

hmm guess i go with the quick mill then

are there any things i should know? isnt it like the pavoni? in the meaning like people tell you no just get it and you are fine and then you find out you need this mod and that mod and pid it and mod it again etc?









i know i have stupid question but im a bit overperfectionist









edit: btw now we can talk about those box shifters, what are tey and where can i find them


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I joined this late and it looks as if you have your heart set on a Lever....however if you change your mind and want a dual boiler machine...wait a bit and the Minima should be well within your budget and offer great performance in brewing and steaming. I don't know when it will be released, because of all the technical details I wanted AVS to change....but when it's out it should be good.


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## wito (May 10, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> I joined this late and it looks as if you have your heart set on a Lever....however if you change your mind and want a dual boiler machine...wait a bit and the Minima should be well within your budget and offer great performance in brewing and steaming. I don't know when it will be released, because of all the technical details I wanted AVS to change....but when it's out it should be good.


yeah saw your post, looks like a lovely machine, but i like my lever machine so i wanna stick with it in the future


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

wito said:


> hmm guess i go with the quick mill then
> 
> are there any things i should know? isnt it like the pavoni? in the meaning like people tell you no just get it and you are fine and then you find out you need this mod and that mod and pid it and mod it again etc?
> 
> ...


https://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/quick-mill-rapida-0987.html

name changed to Rapida. this bunch aint in the UK despite their claims. If it is what you want, give it a whirl


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## wito (May 10, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> https://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/quick-mill-rapida-0987.html
> 
> name changed to Rapida. this bunch aint in the UK despite their claims. If it is what you want, give it a whirl


well if its the same as the londinium which many here use for cca half the price than im fine, all of them use the hx system and are similar to each other in some ways so cutting out which one is superior is kinda impossible

and i think that it doesnt matter which one i choose i still gonna be more pleased than with a la pavoni or etc.

or is there still something i dont know? DD


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am not the most technical but I do not think the qm or Londinium are hx. I would be asking why one uses a pide and one does not


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## wito (May 10, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> I am not the most technical but I do not think the qm or Londinium are hx. I would be asking why one uses a pide and one does not


dont really know, i just assume its just a nice bonus if i want to fiddle around, im not technical in these things aswell

its just if it doesnt matter which one i should get i get the cheapest and get my girlfriend something for the rest of it


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## khampal (Feb 6, 2017)

I have the Quick Mill Rapida (the Veloce in some countries still) and I highly recommend it. If you do buy it, I'd get it from elektros not coffeeitalia though.

It's essentially a single spring dipper, but the group is heated by an open loop thermosiphon not by being mounted directly on the boiler (like a traditional dipper). This means you don't need to worry about overheating or warming up flushes. This is much like how the original Londonium I works. The Londinium R is now of a HX design.

The Quick Mill Achille (which I believe is actually discontinued now) and the Profitec 800 have a double spring. This means the pressure profile of the shot will be closer to that of the pump machine. IMO I don't think this is a good thing, but some people seem to prefer that.


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## khampal (Feb 6, 2017)

If you have any questions about the machine, I'd be happy to answer


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## wito (May 10, 2016)

khampal said:


> I have the Quick Mill Rapida (the Veloce in some countries still) and I highly recommend it. If you do buy it, I'd get it from elektros not coffeeitalia though.
> 
> It's essentially a single spring dipper, but the group is heated by an open loop thermosiphon not by being mounted directly on the boiler (like a traditional dipper). This means you don't need to worry about overheating or warming up flushes. This is much like how the original Londonium I works. The Londinium R is now of a HX design.
> 
> The Quick Mill Achille (which I believe is actually discontinued now) and the Profitec 800 have a double spring. This means the pressure profile of the shot will be closer to that of the pump machine. IMO I don't think this is a good thing, but some people seem to prefer that.


lovely to see someone here to have this machine, looking at the site you posted and the price is fair with shipping, have they better customer support? and what is up with that coffeeitalia site? seen some ppl dislike it, are they scamming?

whats up with the PID people having problems with that it exists?









also thinking that i go straight to this upgrade https://www.cafelatstore.com/products/modern-lever-group-gaskets-kit do you think its a good idea?

of course with a bottomless portafilter and a IMS E basket

and is there a future option to connect it straight to a water pipe (dont know what the english name for that is sorry







)

are there any flaws which you dislike or things i should know about this machine?

thanks







)


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## khampal (Feb 6, 2017)

The guy who runs elektros (Gianni) is very responsive to emails and if you look at reviews around here for elektros they're all positive. Contrast that to coffeeitalia which you only have to do a search on this forum to see all the horror stories. As soon as you buy stuff from coffeeitalia, from what I gather, you're basically on your own if something goes wrong.

There's no issues with the PID. Some people think its unnecessary and think QM should have spent it on another part of the machine or pass the saving onto the consumer by not including it. However, if you ever need to adjust the steam pressure or you want to adjust the brew temp then it makes it a lot easier than fiddling with a pressurestat screw.

Getting a silicone gasket seems like a sensible idea. I'm currently still using the rubber gaskets (3 were provided with the machine) but my first one went pretty quickly. Make sure you buy the right bottomless portafilter for the group, something like this:

https://www.elektros.it/gb/en/bottom_less_filter_holder_level_group.html

As far as I'm aware, there's no plumb in option - only tanked. I think @coffeechap managed to get the older version of this machine working with mains water with the help of some QM engineers but you'd have to ask him for more details.

The only downside of the machine that I can think of is the drip tray is pretty short. It means you have to place scales right on the edge of the drip tray. The build quality is also probably not as good as a londinium, the wiring is a bit messy inside. You're also not paying anywhere near as much as the londinium though.

There are plenty of positives though. There's no tipping or flex issues like you might get with the Strega. The boiler is insulated and theres a no burn steam wand unlike the londinium.

It's also worth noting that the machine appears to have 2L stainless steel boiler rather than a 1.8L copper boiler that's listed officially. Some guys on a german coffee forum noticed this, and having now looked inside the machine, it does indeed seem to be the case.

Hope this helps.


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## wito (May 10, 2016)

btw if you find the time could you please measure the machine? im looking at 3 sites and every one has different dimensions

much appreciate your answer


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## khampal (Feb 6, 2017)

The specs on here are correct:

http://www.koffiepraat.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7062

(Width) 32cm x (Depth) 48cm X (Height without lever) 42cm / (Height with lever) 75cm


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## wito (May 10, 2016)

khampal said:


> The specs on here are correct:
> 
> http://www.koffiepraat.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7062
> 
> (Width) 32cm x (Depth) 48cm X (Height without lever) 42cm / (Height with lever) 75cm


awesome, i have the perfect space for that









thank you very much again


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

It was me that had the plumbed in version of the original Veloce. BB did it for me without the help of QM and it worked absolutely fine, but you will not be able to do this. BB honour the warranty so they can do anything they like. Unless I am wrong, in the event of a potential claim you have to send it back to them at your own cost. If it is less than 6 months old they pay to send it back. 6 to 24 months you pay a proportion...


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## wito (May 10, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> It was me that had the plumbed in version of the original Veloce. BB did it for me without the help of QM and it worked absolutely fine, but you will not be able to do this. BB honour the warranty so they can do anything they like. Unless I am wrong, in the event of a potential claim you have to send it back to them at your own cost. If it is less than 6 months old they pay to send it back. 6 to 24 months you pay a proportion...


yeah that was just a random question but i think im very much determined to get the rapida, just looking on some sites if there isnt something closer to me and still waiting for someone to buy my old pavoni


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