# Upgrade from a Gaggia Baby Class



## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

I have been considering upgrading from my trusty Gaggia lately but am a bit unsure of what the other options are.

I mostly drink straight espresso but make the occasional milk drink at the weekends, usually for the misses, and when guests come over.

I considered the Silvia but dismissed it as not really enough of an upgrade from the Gaggia. Then I read about Fracino and their Cherub and Piccino machines. These appear to be really interesting propositions and seem good value for money. I love the look of the Cherub but wonder whether a HX machine is really for me or whether a double boiler would suit me more considering I mostly drink espresso.

I know there are people on this forum with these machines and other similar machines and I would be really interested to know their thoughts.


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## AlIam (Aug 30, 2011)

I've had my Piccino less than a week & am really happy with it. It looks fab, works reliably. Fracino have been a joy to deal with (& the factory's like 2 miles from my house; bonus!). I don't really have any experience of other machines to offer a comparison though. I borrowed my brother-in-law's classic when I was figuring out what I would buy and the Piccino is definitely a step up in looks and steaming ability - I can do 4 cups of hot chocolate in 1 hit with it. I can't compare to the classic for espressos because his classic had a pressurised basket and a rubbish grinder with it so I have no idea how competent a machine it is. I had a gaggia titanium automatic machine before that & even in my novice hands, the Piccino produces way better espresso than the titanium ever did.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Thanks Allum, did you buy direct from Fracino? Also, how do you find the temperature stability on the machine, do you find much temperature surfing is required to get to a consistent brew temperature?


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## AlIam (Aug 30, 2011)

Yes direct from Fracino. I wanted a custom colour and didn't want to do business with myespresso. I haven't been temp surfing - figuring out how fine to grind, how to foam milk, how to tamp, how the machine operates etc have been plenty to keep me busy. Once I've got all that down, I'll try pulling hot & cold shots and see how much difference it makes. Since I've got the grind about right, every espresso I've pulled has tasted great to me. FWIW, the themostat is rated as 90˚C ±3˚C.

I asked Fracino if they were planning on bringing out a PID Piccino and they said that they couldn't fit one inside the machine so they weren't going to introduce one in the foreseeable future.


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

I should be receiving a Piccino in the next week or so to demo for a week. I will happily put my thoughts/videos of it on here so any interested parties can make a more informed decision on it.

If there are any specific questions you would like answered then feel free to PM me.


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## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

I don't know about the Piccino but with some dual boilers you cannot switch off the steam one.


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## AlIam (Aug 30, 2011)

With a Piccino, you can't switch off the steam one.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

So, after much debating and procrastinating, I took the plunge and ordered the Cherub. I considered the Piccino long and hard and in the end my decision came down to the following:

- The Cherub has a hot water tap on the steam boiler - whilst this probably will not get much use day-to-day, it makes descaling much more straight forward.

- The large boiler and thermosyphonic group of the Cherub makes for fantastic temperature stability

- Flushing the HX did not really concern me - flushing is usually required (to some extent) on single and double boilers too.

- Perhaps most importantly, my wife likes the look of the Cherub!

- All that shiny metal!!

I took delivery yesterday and have so far made three double espressos - not had a chance to play with milk yet. First impressions are as follows:

- It looks fantastic!

- It is solid, I mean really solid.

- It is quite noisy. The pump is very loud compared to my old Gaggia Baby Class. In addition to the pump, the pressure stat makes a reassuring clunk when it kicks in. Oddly, I find the noise very reassuring and adds to the solid, almost industrial feel, of the machine.

- The drip tray is really small and even smaller than I was expecting.

- The drip tray grill looks nice but a proper grill would have been more practical.

- Perhaps unsurprisingly, it takes longer to get up to temperature than the Gaggia. This morning I left if a good half an hour but felt it could have benefited from longer.

- From the results so far, it seems very forgiving. All three espressos have been very drinkable. On one of the shots I could taste sour notes but they were much more muted and mild than they would have been on the Gaggia. I think this could perhaps be due to the thermosyphonic group and/or the HX humped temperature profile but will need to experiment more.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Jimbob what did you do with your baby? If you still have it, any chance you would like to swap the nice long steam wand for the stock shorter one, which you probably wouldn't even advertise.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Sorry Fatboyslim only just seen this for some reason - I think it must have been truncated off the topic list in Tappatalk. Unfortunately, I am afraid my Sister has dibs on the wand (the Baby is going to her). Hopefully, you are managing okay without it?

I thought I would provide an update on my experiences with the Cherub following some extensive use over Christmas and the Cherub's first descale.

Firstly, I am still loving the machine. Thermal stability is fantastic, the E61 style group head really does make a big difference. I am starting to get used to the steam power, it all happens so quickly. The real turning point was ditching the thermometer (it simply couldn't keep up with the speed with which the milk heated) and holding the jug completely vertical with the wand entering the milk approximately 15 degrees off vertical. With the Gaggia I used to hold the jug at an angle but this does not seem to work with the Cherub (perhaps because of the 4 holes in the wand tip?). I tried the vertical thing after watching a video on YouTube with Scott Rao and it seems to work much better.

Descaling the machine went very smoothly although one issue that arose was the fact that the water reservoir on the Cherub is not removable. This made it impossible to remove the last of the descaling solution and fill it with clean water so lots of flushing was required!!!

The drip tray is still annoyingly small although I have now worked out a better way of inserting it and removing it from the machine. When fitted in the machine, the tray slopes downwards at the back and so it is best to put it in back first and remove it back last. Sounds simple and obvious in hindsight but at first it seemed much more logical and natural to do the opposite which made the water spill.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

No worries jimbow, I bought the longer panerello wand and took off the frothing aid.

Massively improved microfoam and a decent wand length.

Is a machine like the Cherub suitable for very low usage, 2-3 espressos a day?

I imagine it has a long warm up time and you need to carefully flush the group head etc. Is it much extra work and prep compared to the baby?

I decided to buy a PID for my Baby, just waiting for it to arrive


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Glad to hear it Fatboyslim, the longer panarello made a difference for me too. I considered replacing the whole arm with a Wega wand but, unlike the Silvia wand upgrade on the Classic, there was not a lot of material on the internet with advice on how to do it.

I find that the boiler on the Cherub is up to operating temperature in about 5-10 minutes, which is actually a similar time to the Gaggia. However, I find that the machine really needs to be given at least 30 minutes to properly warm up and benefits from even longer. I think this period is needed for the HX circuit to get warm, which is indirectly heated by the steam boiler, and to give the thermosyphon action time to get established and heat the group head.

The idea with the thermosyphon heated E61 style group head is that it will correct minor variations in the brew water temperature i.e. if the brew water is too hot, it will cool it and if it is too cool, the group head will heat it. The pressurestat on my Cherub is only set to 1 bar which means the recovery time is slightly longer but that I do not need to be quite so precise with cooling flushes. I was quite apprehensive about cooling flushes before buying the machine but it is actually much simpler than I expected. In practice I find, after an hour sat idle, running around 3 fluid ounces through the group before dosing and pulling the shot seems to work well. However, I should check this more quantitively with a thermocouple and would be interested in comparing notes with other Cherub users on how they flush their machines.

Since buying the Cherub, I have invested in a timer plug and set the machine to switch on an hour before I need it. I find that this works brilliantly and means the machine is ready to use when I need it. I tend to drink 1-2 double espressos a day with more at the weekend along with some milk based drinks. I find that the preparation and clear up time is, if anything, slightly less with the Cherub compared to the Gaggia. If I made more milk based drinks then of course this difference would be more exagerated in the Cherub's favour.

I hope the PID works out well and am looking forward to hearing your experiences.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

jimbow said:


> I find that the boiler on the Cherub is up to operating temperature in about 5-10 minutes, which is actually a similar time to the Gaggia. However, I find that the machine really needs to be given at least 30 minutes to properly warm up and benefits from even longer. I think this period is needed for the HX circuit to get warm, which is indirectly heated by the steam boiler, and to give the thermosyphon action time to get established and heat the group head.


 On the Londinium I lever machine (which, of course, is made by Fracino and I believe has the same boiler as the Cherub and a similar thermosyphon system) the recommendation is to flush about a pint of water through once the boiler is up to temperature (which is in about three minutes) to give the thermosyphon a chance to warm up the group. Eight minutes later the whole machine is up to temperature.

Would this work with the Cherub?


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

I have certainly noticed that flushing water through the group can help accelerate the warming up period although I have not been terribly scientific about it so could not comment on amounts or timings. What you suggest sounds feasible though. However, I imagine that the longer the group head spends at operating temperature (and the other metal parts e.g. boiler, HX, etc.) the better its thermal memory and recovery


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

jimbow said:


> I have certainly noticed that flushing water through the group can help accelerate the warming up period although I have not been terribly scientific about it so could not comment on amounts or timings. What you suggest sounds feasible though. However, I imagine that the longer the group head spends at operating temperature (and the other metal parts e.g. boiler, HX, etc.) the better its thermal memory and recovery


 Once the group is warmed up, the thermosyphon should maintain that temperature. So, as I understand it, it's not a case of "the longer the group head spends at operating temperature..." but simply the thermosyphon isn't going to bring the group up to temperature instantly.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Agreed, once the thermosyphon is full of hot water and the convection current is established then the group will heat up pretty quickly. However, I think that the metal the group head is made from will have a thermal memory and I imagine the better the metal has stabilised at operating temperature the more easily it will return to that temperature and hence the faster the recovery between shots.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

jimbow said:


> However, I think that the metal the group head is made from will have a thermal memory and I imagine the better the metal has stabilised at operating temperature the more easily it will return to that temperature and hence the faster the recovery between shots.


 Please explain to me this concept of 'thermal memory' because I don't understand it.


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