# Coffee tastes sour - is the temperature too low?



## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

I don't have access to a Scace device so tried running the group into a styrofoam cup with a food thermometer in there. I'm getting 85*C in the cup at the maximum temperature setting of 97*C. Allowing a few degrees for cooling as it comes out, this still seems low. Has anyone done this recently? - I'd be interested in what you are getting. My machine has a programmable off-set that can increase or decrease the temperature to allow matching of the group more closely - It's currently set to 0*C (Mini Vivaldi II) Cheers.

Andy.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Re taste - what's the coffee ? What dose in grams are you using , how much epsresso in grams are making over what time ?

Have you fiddled with any temp offsets settings on the machine ? It should be factory set with a scace before you get it .


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

I've been using Happy Donkey Classic Italian. 15g weighed in, 34g out in 26 seconds. I'm aiming for 30g but it's near enough. Crema looks good. But the taste is sour. I'm not getting any 'coffe' taste - although I don't usually drink straight espresso I can't be steaming milk for every shot to taste it. I've put the off-set to +4*c to gain some more adjustment. Gave up last night, but back on it today!


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## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

Doesn't sound like you should be getting sour at that ratio with that coffee. When was it roasted? If under 7 days it may be too fresh to use yet which can lead to sour. You could try grinding finer to see if that corrects it. If not then temperature could in fact be the culprit. Are you warning up the machine sufficiently and using a hot portafilter?


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

I think it was roasted on 7th Feb. It has a code 17027. Machine was warm, (I was at it for over an hour) - portafilter was really warm. Short flush, stabilise temperature - pull. I can try grinding finer.

I'd really like someone to comment on the water temperature they've seen into a Styro cup. Other than that, I'll see if I can cobble something together with a K type thermocouple and Comark from work.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I think a roast potentially that dark and sour is good going









Grind finer and set your brew ratio.

34 g isn't near enough to 30g it's has a big impact . It's 13 percent different to your target .

Grind finer aim for 30g to start

The measurements for water temp are not accurate enough to use to determine offset and realistically comment on ( imho )

If you have concerns about the temp get a scace or scace equivalent or get it serviced


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Thanks for the suggestions. Too busy this morning to try anything, but have some time this afternoon to have another play. I'll tighten the grind a bit and try to get bang on 30g out. It's a bit of a laugh trying to lock in the portafilter, start the pull, whip the scales and cup under the spout, tare, and start the timer all at the same time! Practise I guess. I'll let you know how I fare.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Progress. Another bag of Happy Donkey gone. I tightened the grind slightly. Definitely there was a problem with the temperature. Now at +5*c off-set and 94*c set point. That's a whole 7*c above where I started yesterday!! I'm getting 90*C in the Styro cup. I've nailed 15g in and 30g out in around 30 seconds. Coffee, although not brilliant, is a lot lot better. I can smell and taste some coffee notes coming through. The espressos seem bright, acidic not smooth and rounded - but I'm no expert taster. Also noticed that during the pour, the temperature drops away from 94*c down off-scale (below 91*c).


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Update.

Settled on a temperature setting of 93*c for the coffee I'm using, and put the off-set back to +4*c after a little better measurement technique gave 91*c. I think this is fairly close to the actual water temperature exiting the group.

I'm dosing 14g and getting a 1:2 ratio in 25 seconds. The Spaz is fussy with dose and does not like over dosing. Even at 15g in the basket you see an indentation in the dry puck from the shower screen nut. I'll maybe order up a triple basket once I'm happy with what I'm doing.

The flavour (and this is where I'm struggling) just isn't blowing me away. The drinks are non offensive, have nice crema, a slightly smokey taste, but very little by way of coffee flavour. After taste is bitter. As the drink cools, some coffee flavour emerges. But the drinks are not hot - in fact my wife usually complains that it's too cool for her liking.

I've ordered some RAVE signature and Italian to rule out the blend.

I'm hoping it isn't the new grinder or it's tenure will be short lived! It seems consistent now that the burrs have had a couple of kg through them. Will set up the rocky for side by side comparison.

Other things, pressure....seems fine, needle sort of vibrates between 8.5 and 9 bars?

Water quality - we have a Britta in-line filter - is this good enough? Do I need to use bottled water?

Or am I just expecting too much from this set up?

I might put up a video for you guys to throw rocks at.









Andy.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Good news on the temp . You are drinking a blend that is more than likely dark roasted with robusta in it , to some that will be fairly one dimensional and bitter. Robusta is bitter on it's own, you may just no be liking that. I'd still look to get a temp measuring device to see where the machine is calibrated though.

What taste do you want , as " coffee " isnt telling me what you are after, Coffee for one person is dark bitter chocolate , for another bright fruity flavours .

So what coffee have you had from anywhere that you have enjoyed and what did it taste of / Stick to basics - sweet, bitter etc.

Anyway try grinding a little finer and pulling the shot over a longer time . I'd stop looking at the gear now and start adjusting your brew ratios and or changing your coffee.

Taste in coffee reveals itself when it cools , when its hot I can't taste anything . When milk is super hot is looses it's sweetness also . So do you want a hot drink or a tasty one







. Make your partner a hot drink , it wont reveal taste per say , but if that's her goal then thats fine

Also a 1:2 is just one recipe out of many , it is not a cast iron guarantee of tasty for all coffee's for all people .

Video would be good, higher quality coffee better ( IMHO ) .

Gear wont make robusta not bitter , so i'd stop looking at your grinder , start looking at how you make the coffee ( adjusting brew ratios ) and start looking for different coffee's to try .


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Good news on the temp . You are drinking a blend that is more than likely dark roasted with robusta in it , to some that will be fairly one dimensional and bitter. Robusta is bitter on it's own, you may just no be liking that. I'd still look to get a temp measuring device to see where the machine is calibrated though.
> 
> What taste do you want , as " coffee " isnt telling me what you are after, Coffee for one person is dark bitter chocolate , for another bright fruity flavours .
> 
> ...


That's a really good response - thanks. I think you're right, I need to stop thinking the machine will make up for the lack of technique, quality coffee, and laser precision.

Having been used to Lavazza Super Crema and the like, I thought the HD Italian would be step up. Can't wait for the Rave to come now. I was also under impression that a small amount of Robusta in the blend gives it that punch.

What really got me interested in making good esprssso at home was regular visits to my local Neros. (Can't stand Costas or Starbucks). They use a Compak K10 fresh which spits out a full dose in around four seconds. They use a pre set tamping lever, then straight into a Feama ambassador E91 four group. No distribution. One barista in particular just gets it spot on every time. (She probably wonders who the crank is timing her shots!!) The coffee is really good. It tastes like the smell you get when you open a fresh bag of coffee. That's the best way I can describe it. So that is my bench mark. In time I may end up surpassing that, but for now...'as good' will do! At the moment I'm nowhere near that.

I asked them for a bag of their beans but it was just an off the shelf blend, not what they are actually using in the shop

Thanks again.

Andy.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Neros will be pulling shots closer to 1:3 ratio i think . So 15> 45 g for you at around 25-40 seconds. I am guessing this as they use shot glasses in the store .

This means your drink will be weaker that your 1:2 ratio. Robusta will give a drink crema, and a kick , it's up to the individual if they like that or not .

They might have volumertics on that machine ( a set amount of water going into the puck ) .

Try the Rave stuff and see how you get on , don't get stuck on one time and one ratio though .

Have fun


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Further update this morning. Dosed 15g with the last of the Happy Donkey. Very light tamp. Cut the shot at the first sign of blonding. 22 seconds. Best shot I've pulled by a country mile - smooth, rounded, and it actually tasted of coffe. The problem it seems was the fact that I was tamping too hard which was causing channelling and therefore rotten shots. Another theory is that grinder and machine are just bedding in after two weeks. Previously I'd tried just using Volvic water to rule that out - no difference.

Either way, without doing anything radical, things have taken a turn for the good. So relieved.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Finally put the temperature issue to bed. Home-made Scace device confirmed a lovely stable 92.5*c throughout the extraction at a set-point of 93*c (off-set +4*c). Checked calibration in boiling water - 99.6*c so pretty close. Quite pleased with my back-pressure rubber stopper to give correct flow rate. Can stop fretting about temperature now!


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## christos_geo (Feb 9, 2016)

lake_m said:


> Further update this morning. Dosed 15g with the last of the Happy Donkey. Very light tamp. Cut the shot at the first sign of blonding. 22 seconds. Best shot I've pulled by a country mile - smooth, rounded, and it actually tasted of coffe. The problem it seems was the fact that I was tamping too hard which was causing channelling and therefore rotten shots. Another theory is that grinder and machine are just bedding in after two weeks. Previously I'd tried just using Volvic water to rule that out - no difference.
> 
> Either way, without doing anything radical, things have taken a turn for the good. So relieved.


Just to say tamping pressure has been shown to have little effect on the extraction, assuming you are tamping with at least a couple of kg to remove air pockets. The pressure on the puck at 9bar is in excess of 100kg. What you are trying to achieve is an even bed using consistent tamp pressure and technique. Perhaps by tamping hard as in your previous shots, you were fracturing the puck by concentrating too much on applying pressure, or if you were using sloped edged baskets reaching the slope with your tamper and compromising the seal around the edges. As long as your tamper fits well and is within 2mm of your basket size you should try and exclude pressure as a variable. Also as I'm sure most on the forum will agree, blonding should not be taken as a queue to end a shot. Go by weight, at least that way you can have repeatability and consistency amongst your shots. It may be the coffee of course, the tasting notes of which may not be up your street, so try a few others as well. But I'm glad you got a nice shot out of them and that you sorted out the temperature!

Have a look at this


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Thanks as always - good advice (and interesting video.)

Currently enjoying repeatable good coffee but not 100% sure how or why, other than I tamp lightly and cut the shot early.

Biggest problem is that I cant properly recognise bitter/sour, over/under extracted. Until I get this, I'm not making the logical next step to correct unpleasantness.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Neros will be pulling shots closer to 1:3 ratio i think . So 15> 45 g for you at around 25-40 seconds. I am guessing this as they use shot glasses in the store .
> 
> This means your drink will be weaker that your 1:2 ratio. Robusta will give a drink crema, and a kick , it's up to the individual if they like that or not .
> 
> ...


 @Mrboots2u - you were bang on the money!

Had a cheeky chat with the manageress at the Neros in town. So for anyone even the remotest bit interested in replicating Neros coffee.

Neros Classico coffee beans. Grind course to get 45-50g (or actually 2oz in 2 x shot glasses) double shot in 22 seconds with a 15g-16g dose (the emphasis seemed to be on the 22 seconds - they aren't allowed to alter dose or volumetrics, just the grind).

Just for the hell of it, I bought a bag of their beans and tested the theory home. It totally replicated their coffee. Like, exactly!!

That was easy. Now onto my new bag off Coffee Compass 'Hill & Valley'...


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## greymda (Oct 6, 2016)

lake_m said:


> Finally put the temperature issue to bed. Home-made Scace device confirmed a lovely stable 92.5*c throughout the extraction at a set-point of 93*c (off-set +4*c). Checked calibration in boiling water - 99.6*c so pretty close. Quite pleased with my back-pressure rubber stopper to give correct flow rate. Can stop fretting about temperature now!


can you repost the picture? i'm really interested in the rubber stopper thing


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

greymda said:


> can you repost the picture? i'm really interested in the rubber stopper thing


Sorry @greymda just seen this post. The picture has disappeared (must be a limited time span?). I'll see if I still have the pic on my phone, if not, I'll take another.

Edit - just found it


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

lake_m said:


> @Mrboots2u - you were bang on the money!
> 
> Had a cheeky chat with the manageress at the Neros in town. So for anyone even the remotest bit interested in replicating Neros coffee.
> 
> ...


This is pure gold, neros americano has been my benchmark for getting in to this! Thanks lake_m!


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

lake_m said:


> I've been using Happy Donkey Classic Italian. 15g weighed in, 34g out in 26 seconds. I'm aiming for 30g but it's near enough. Crema looks good. But the taste is sour. I'm not getting any 'coffe' taste - although I don't usually drink straight espresso I can't be steaming milk for every shot to taste it. I've put the off-set to +4*c to gain some more adjustment. Gave up last night, but back on it today!


Btw lake - this is pretty much exactly the problem you're helping me with over on the mignon distribution thread.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

I feel for you mate. There is nothing worse than looking at your thousand quid plus machine and asking why the hell can I not get a decent shot out of this damn thing.

I can thankfully put my woes behind me and put this thread to bed forever. In the end it was two things: The off-set was wrong to the tune of 4*c. But more importantly, I found (after reading reams on the S1cafe forum) that the S1 has a 'cold nose' by design. It MUST have 2 x 2oz warm up flushes to stabilise the temps before the 1st shot is pulled, or if the machine has not been used for over 5 mins - if you don't do this, your shot will be sour no matter what you do. This was the Eureka moment for me and it made all the difference. Once she's stabilised you can pull back to back shots all day. Also, I found a coffee bean I like and I'm sticking with it for now. Got it dialled in, got the double shot button programmed for 36g, pulling a shot and steaming at the same time - YES!. It's taken 3 months to get to this place which is annoying, but the leaning curve has been exponential. Happily now making coffee as good as the best I've had.

Keep going....you'll get there!


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks buddy, it will make it all the more satisfying when I get there.

Very fortunate to have a forum like this to help.

I think I'll do the same when I find a good decaf blend or dark roast I like - stick to it.


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## greymda (Oct 6, 2016)

@lake_m thanks for the picture, i'm more interested in the "rubber stopper to get the flow rate" thing


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

greymda said:


> @lake_m thanks for the picture, i'm more interested in the "rubber stopper to get the flow rate" thing


Ah right. It's a bit Heath Robinson. I used a rubber foot from the bottom of an old kitchen appliance. Drilled out the centre to allow the probe to come up through it, then shaved it around the edges until it was a good snug fit in the spout. It obviously isn't fully water tight so passes pressurised water - roughly a double shot in 25 secs. It works - that's good enough for me!


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## greymda (Oct 6, 2016)

very nice idea, must do it to, as it's the proper way to see the water temperature for a double. thanks for the idea!


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

lake_m said:


> @Mrboots2u - you were bang on the money!
> 
> Had a cheeky chat with the manageress at the Neros in town. So for anyone even the remotest bit interested in replicating Neros coffee.
> 
> ...


Hope you don't mind me continuing this thread based on this info lake_m

I've been thinking about this a lot and was wondering if people could give their view on why Nero might be doing this espresso ratio?

So they're basically doing 1:3 in 22 seconds which is way off the 1:2 in around 30 seconds that seems to be a target for most on here. I'm not saying they're doing it wrong though I'd love to understand some suggestions on why this might be. It's pretty much a lungo in 22 seconds isn't it - my limited knowledge says to me this could easily be under-extracted and weak?


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

I've asked the same question and come to the conclusion that it must be the beans and roast is specific for that brew ratio. With a high volume throughput such as Nero's, if they can shave time anywhere then it's money. Their grinders e.g. Cant be on for more than 3 secs per dose (I've counted). They don't distributed. They don't clean the portafilter from the previous shot - just knock it out, grind, tamp (auto tamper) and pull the shot. The manageress explained to me that she's had Italian customers complaining that the shots are too fast! But it seems to taste great. Better than Costas anyway. They do not grind for decaf at all. Just use small sachets of pre ground.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

kennyboy993 said:


> Hope you don't mind me continuing this thread based on this info lake_m
> 
> I've been thinking about this a lot and was wondering if people could give their view on why Nero might be doing this espresso ratio?
> 
> So they're basically doing 1:3 in 22 seconds which is way off the 1:2 in around 30 seconds that seems to be a target for most on here. I'm not saying they're doing it wrong though I'd love to understand some suggestions on why this might be. It's pretty much a lungo in 22 seconds isn't it - my limited knowledge says to me this could easily be under-extracted and weak?


1:3 isn't a lungo, it's pretty much ball-park for Italian normale.

The more water you push through the puck, the higher extraction (within a reasonable timeframe...I wouldn't hold too much store by a specific time unless for consistent roast level & set up). Shorter shots are more likely to be under-extracted. Lighter roasts have less intensity (for the same strength), so shorter ratios can help bolster that. The longer the brew ratio the less time you might need to hit a certain extraction level.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

ok thanks MWJB

So this recipe is their way of creating a nice, big espresso with enough punch to work in most beverages?

I've been fixated on 1:2 because I'm still learning - perhaps in cafe world there is much more flexibility?

I usually make an americano and so far have assumed the best thing I should do is make as good a 1:2 espresso as I can and then add a certain amount of water to make it weak enough for me to enjoy. Perhaps I should be experimenting with other ratios too


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

kennyboy993 said:


> ok thanks MWJB
> 
> So this recipe is their way of creating a nice, big espresso with enough punch to work in most beverages?
> 
> ...


If you're making an Americano, not a milk drink, then you will be diluting the shot with water to make a weaker than typical espresso drink. So, why limit yourself to a 1:2 ratio? Why not pull a slightly longer shot (if you need to, not saying you're doing anything wrong if you're hitting a good flavour) & add a little less top up water?

How much do your Americanos weigh?

The ratio really sets the strength (concentration) of the shot, not the taste...unless the ratio limits what you can extract in terms of flavour balance. The ratio is only wrong if your drinks are all too weak, or too intense.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Never thought of it like that.

Of course - if it's not a milk drink then I should experiment shouldn't I.

Never weighed the amount of water I add but it looks like about 3:1 water to espresso. I'll weigh next time


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## Wes78 (Apr 18, 2017)

lake_m said:


> I feel for you mate. There is nothing worse than looking at your thousand quid plus machine and asking why the hell can I not get a decent shot out of this damn thing
> 
> Got it dialled in, got the double shot button programmed for 36g, pulling a shot and steaming at the same time - YES!.
> 
> Keep going....you'll get there!


Just reading through, very interesting thread!

Im about to try dial in my first espressos on the Oracle with a fresh bean (Raves Italian Job).

I'm wondering, when you say programmed for 36 grams, is that based on time? Or volumetrics?


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Wes78 said:


> Just reading through, very interesting thread!
> 
> Im about to try dial in my first espressos on the Oracle with a fresh bean (Raves Italian Job).
> 
> I'm wondering, when you say programmed for 36 grams, is that based on time? Or volumetrics?


Weight of beverage in the cup. Stick the scales under the cup, hit the program button, start the shot, stop the shot at 36g, press save to lock it in. Simples......







Works until you change the grind setting......then you have to do it all over again, but not a big deal.

Just to add, it's volumetrics, not time.


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## Wes78 (Apr 18, 2017)

Thanks lake m.

Definitely answered my question, I was thinking about grind size affecting time. Especially as I only really have 2/3 cups a day. These are at different times so it'll be interesting to see if ill need to faff with grind to get consistent results or if that would be more of a daily thing.

Will see!

The Oracle does have a volumetrics button to set water amount which should bypass grind size as a variable whilst still giving consistent weights but I'm a little sceptical.

heres to Experimenting!


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## educnews (May 7, 2017)

very nice idea, must do it to, as it's the proper way to see the water temperature for a double. thanks for the idea!


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I tried 1:3 with Italian job today following tips on this thread and then added water for an americano.

It was the tastiest coffee I've had at home - just like in the cafe. Loved it.

18 in, 54 out in 25 seconds so had to really loosen the grind.

I was wondering if you guys could explain what is going on here - everything I've read tells me that the fast pour is not a good thing.

I know someone might say, it tasted good Kenny, don't worry about it. But I'd like to learn a bit about the extraction logic here.

When I made an americano will the same total drink volume at a 1:2 espresso ratio (therefore adding more water to make the same total volume) it didn't have the same body or punch to it.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

As you go longer on the ratio, you may find that you don't need the shot to take as much time. 1:3 in 25sec doesn't seem particularly fast.

Within reason, the amount of water you push through the puck has the bigger effect on extraction.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Id echo what mwjb says , i know people that regularly enjoy 20 second shots... If a shot is fast due to channeling , then that may well be impacting on your taste .

If you havent already try and go through these clips here to give you a good understanding of what's happening.

Start on the links for dose , yield etc and build up to the clip on the page

https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista-hustle/espresso-recipes-putting-it-all-together

It's worth bearing in mind the impact that the roast level has on all this. italian Job will be a darker roast and therefore will give up it's good stuff easier and quicker than a light roast. Hypothetically a little under extraction ( from a quicker weaker shot running quicker ) may balance out the edge of the roast / bitterness and be god thing for your preference.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks boys, good learning - makes sense.

2 things stand out for me - '25 seconds 1:3 isn't necessarily a fast pour' - yeah it seemed happy, even though started quick it wasn't watery and still had good striping etc.

'....a little under extraction may be balancing out the bitterness..' I get the sense this is happening - balanced is a word I wanted to describe the drink though to be fair I didn't taste the espresso before I added more water


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