# Yet another Sour/Bitter brick wall (Sage Barista Express)



## PatienceDiminishing (Jun 23, 2020)

Firstly, hello to anyone reading this that may be able to help.

I have read forum related issues and watched Youtube videos totalling literally hours in an attempt to understand this seemingly impossible conundrum - the sour/bitter espresso.

I say sour/bitter because the espresso shots I am getting are terrible with an instant hit of some horrible bite that is either sour or bitter.

I have used supermarket beans (from the higher costing ranges) as well as a recent batch of a variety of blends in 200g samples direct from a roaster and have been through all the grind options, tamp to approximately 12kg, manual extraction to get 1:2 ... and even when this is around 30-35 seconds the shot is still terrible.

Now aside from the usual questions - what I would like to understand is ... I went to a friends house on the weekend and he has an automatic type bean>coffee machine where there are no grind, tamp, pressure, temperature configurations and the espresso was absolutely perfect ... press the button and hey presto - and this machine cost around £200-£250 if I recall.

Taste is naturally a subjective thing but the espresso was just like a nice strong black coffee - no aftertaste that would even hint at sour/bitter or something acquired.

Now obviously the automated process inside is taking care of variables like tamp pressure, temperature and so on ... but if you are theoretically supposed to have to dial in a manual machine every time you change beans and so on - how on earth is a one button machine that costs half the price of the Sage doing such a massively better job and why would anyone ever bother paying a penny more than (I believe it was around £250) and go to all this added effort if it is so difficult (oh, and the beans he was using, although they were from a dedicated 'coffee bean shop', cost around £12 per kilo, so not some magic Blue Mountain or anything).

Apologies for being a bit ranty about this but I am at wits end as I would have thought that something like the Sage should relatively easily match the cheaper automatic machines and then perhaps give you the option to tweak an even better espresso by calibrating a bit here and there which the automatic machine would not allow you to do?

Thanks for any help.

Annoyed .


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

There's probably a lot going on here.

Generally speaking if you're specific about the beans you're using and the shot times, weights and ratios you're achieving you might get some help.

Your friend paying £12 a kilo is either benefiting from a loss leader or somebody selling things off at half price when they're on their way to becoming stale. You need fresh beans, it's not clear what you've been using so far. Your friend could be making acceptable coffee with fairly low quality dark roast beans.

The water you're using could be playing a role if it has very low alkalinity.

The coffee your friend used could have been a very dark roast that was so under extracted it just tasted like a strong filter.

A 1:2 ratio isn't a magic bullet. If your shots are sour and you can't grind finer without getting a bitter, silty, gritty cup then increase the ratio.


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

PatienceDiminishing said:


> Firstly, hello to anyone reading this that may be able to help.
> 
> I have read forum related issues and watched Youtube videos totalling literally hours in an attempt to understand this seemingly impossible conundrum - the sour/bitter espresso.
> 
> ...


 Answer to me sounds like you're just doing things wrong. Fixing that is the hard part. Your friend's coffee seems good because yours is so bad. I've made some undrinkable shots, we all have, no matter what machine we first use. Once you get your Sage humming like more experienced Sage users have (and for me it took 2+ months) you'll be enjoying nice coffee.

So what are you doing wrong and how do you fix it...firstly, read the first page of the below post, there's some detailed points, steps you can't skip and things you should do. Once you have followed all those points, come back and tell us where you are having issues. That specificity will help us and we can see you're doing the basics right. There's things like water temp, grind fineness we have no idea about atm so it's hard to help you atm

Use fresh beans from a recommended roaster, never buy supermarket. Bear in mind each roaster will be different and need dialling in. Buying many different ones while learning won't really help. By one good bean and learnt to get that right. 35 seconds is a bit long but 30 should be fine. Don't get caught up in 1:2 ratio.

Tom Hughes main post and my post, #14, should guide you. Once we know you are doing all that, it will be easier to help you.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51039-sage-beprodtp-etc-read-this-first/?do=embed


----------



## bargi (May 7, 2020)

PatienceDiminishing said:


> Firstly, hello to anyone reading this that may be able to help.
> I have read forum related issues and watched Youtube videos totalling literally hours in an attempt to understand this seemingly impossible conundrum - the sour/bitter espresso.
> I say sour/bitter because the espresso shots I am getting are terrible with an instant hit of some horrible bite that is either sour or bitter.
> I have used supermarket beans (from the higher costing ranges) as well as a recent batch of a variety of blends in 200g samples direct from a roaster and have been through all the grind options, tamp to approximately 12kg, manual extraction to get 1:2 ... and even when this is around 30-35 seconds the shot is still terrible.
> ...


Do you purge?
Ive just started espresso and got through a kilo of Square Mile with every shot sour. Tried adjusting grind, ratio, tamp and everything else without luck.
Started on a new bag from Rave and tasted the same. Got frustrated and forgot to purge... Bingo!

Was purging to much and water temp dropped too low. 
Typically only after that I saw a YouTube vid from Seattle coffee mentioning sour can be water temp 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## Griffo (Dec 31, 2017)

bargi said:


> Do you purge?
> Ive just started espresso and got through a kilo of Square Mile with every shot sour. Tried adjusting grind, ratio, tamp and everything else without luck.
> Started on a new bag from Rave and tasted the same. Got frustrated and forgot to purge... Bingo!
> 
> ...


 How does purging make the temperature drop? Isn't it running hot water through it? I thought it would be the opposite?

Could be my issue if so, because I have been doing 3-4 doubles before pulling a shot.


----------



## bargi (May 7, 2020)

Explains it here. Guessing it'll be simar with the Sage. What have you got to lose trying it? 






If your not already leave the portafilter in when you turn it on and let it sit for a while so everything is hot.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

> 18 minutes ago, bargi said:
> 
> Explains it here. Guessing it'll be simar with the Sage. What have you got to lose trying it?


 It won't be the same with the sage as it uses a thermocoil/thermojet not a single boiler like the video.

Purging is good as it heats everything up. sounds like you just need to sort your grind settings out.

The sage is more than capable of a decent cup of coffee, although it doesn't like lighter roasts much unless you adjust the grinder


----------



## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

One thing that really helped me is controlling for variability in beans. Pick a solid medium/dark espresso bean and order 1kg, then box it up and freeze it in maybe 100g portions, and defrost as needed. That will give you a month of identical coffee beans.

The other thing I'll say is 1:2, 18 to 36 in 30 seconds is just a guide. You can get great tasting coffee by varying these parameters WIDELY. Experiment and do lots of tasting, and prepare to fail a bit.


----------



## PatienceDiminishing (Jun 23, 2020)

Thanks for all the responses and advice - I was convinced I would be snubbed for being a bit too 'hissy-fittish' as I had literally run straight to the PC to offload after 6 x espresso (failed) attempts yesterday.

I can't believe I had not stumbled across the generic SB thread (as linked further up by CocoLoco) before as it is indeed very informative and a good summary of various bits I had read elsewhere along with a few extras.

I am expecting delivery today of a set of scales and will post back here with more specific information pertaining to the beans and other settings/results etc.

I had already ordered some new fresh beans which should arrive today I would think, but that order is for 4 x 200g batches of four different blends, so I am probably going to trip over that variance a bit as I change between blends every 15 or so shots, but hopefully I can get at least a bit closer.

Although I knew the beans themselves would certainly vary findings dramatically, I was naively under the impression that I would have been able to use any (supermarket for example) bean and at least get an OK shot which would have then improved in quality with fresher beans direct from roasters etc, so that mistake along with the general consensus taken from the linked thread (ie. the SB is not a plug and play out the box machine) are probably enough for me to discard all previous issues and attempts and start from scratch as per the link.

For the time being, thank you once again for taking the time to advise and I will report back here with findings.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend (Apr 15, 2020)

PatienceDiminishing said:


> Thanks for all the responses and advice - I was convinced I would be snubbed for being a bit too 'hissy-fittish' as I had literally run straight to the PC to offload after 6 x espresso (failed) attempts yesterday.
> 
> I can't believe I had not stumbled across the generic SB thread (as linked further up by CocoLoco) before as it is indeed very informative and a good summary of various bits I had read elsewhere along with a few extras.
> 
> ...


 I'm not sure if you say in the post what machine you are working with, if it's the Express then it is a little harder to get going with than the Pro as the steps on the express grinder can be too big especially when using older grounds. Newer fresher beans should be much easier to dial in and degrade slower. Before I got a new grinder I was able to use Lavazza Dek decaf and Oro on the Pro but would imagine it may not be possible on the Express. IMO it's worth getting a good storage container for the beans also, something that expels the air like Airscape or Fellow Atmos, I'm sure there are others. I usually buy Dek in 500g bags, put them into 250g vacuum sealed bags and freeze them until I need them which is usually while I'm resting new beans.

Don't forget to rest your new beans for at least 6 days from the roast date, otherwise the CO2 release from the beans will no doubt make it harder for you to dial in and the taste won't be at its best until the beans have aged a decent amount of time.


----------



## PatienceDiminishing (Jun 23, 2020)

Hi there - sorry, should have mentioned - I have the standard Barista Express.

The beans arrived this morning (the place I get them from sells them in resealable "paper?" bags with a built in one way purge valve contraption to expel air).

I also took delivery of a set of scales and a small double shot measuring glass (even though I will go by the scale, this does at least have the 30ml / 60ml etching so useful in the long run).

I also bought a small whisk and made a makeshift WDT whilst I was about it all ... I was hesitant to change too many things at once in case that blurs where any potential improvements may be coming from, but decided to make this my new norm, so made one double shot about an hour ago as follows (more on the bean later):

1. Preheated with portafilter in place for 30mins+.
2. Purged 3 x plain hot water shots.
3. Weighed 18g of beans.
4. Grinder was set at 2 (where I had last left it yesterday with supermarket beans) - I have not changed the internal grind bur thing since buying the machine.
5. Weighed out 18g of grounds.
6. Ran the double shot AUTO pour thing (will explain why after these stepped points).
7. Having the shot glass on the scales, I stopped the extraction at 36g ... ended up about 39-40g (the AUTO shot was programmed to run a bit more I think).
8. For what it is worth the pressure gauge was at around 12 0'clock - first few seconds of the shot were dark and slow followed by good caramel flow but quite fast?
9. I had a meeting starting in less than 5 minutes before I pulled the shot so forgot to set a timer!!!!

Whilst trying a few things yesterday and the day before (when I originally started this thread), I tried - for the first time - 'programming' the AUTO shot pour amount by marking a double shot in volume (not weight) on a standard small glass and setting the AUTO to stop at that approximate point.
I know this is not how it should be done, but I was just trying something at that point and therefore, this is how my AUTO shot size is currently set.

The beans I used are an Italian Espresso blend marketed as a 'medium/strong roasted coffee, a typical continental style' ... sorry if this is a bit vague compared to specific Country / Region varieties that the experienced may understand more, but that is all that I have on them.

My opinion? Definitely a lot less sour than anything before.
These beans were my favourite from the previous 6 x 100g batches I had tried as they did not have a wild or obvious taste/smell, so it may just be an 'easy' bean if there is such a thing?
There was a bit of sourness, but definitely not throw it down the sink variety ... I topped up a small glass with some hot water Americano style and it was an absolute fine black filter coffee in that format (diluted with the extra hot water I guess)?

I hope at least some of the above is even small steps in the right direction of trying to work things out and I will post back here the next time I pull a shot with a timer to go with everything else left as is ... including the AUTO shot button for now. 
If the time shows a worrying speed issue, I will then take any advice to recalibrate (perhaps the grind size and tamp pressure) before moving on to the MANUAL shot pouring concept - unless I should be doing this already?

Many thanks


----------



## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

2 things. 
Yes, you should be using manual to get your desired shot weight. 
Can you adjust the grinder upper burr on your BE? Grinder setting 2 doesn't give you far to go.


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

If it was fast either grind a bit finer (you may well need to adjust top burr, most Sage users do that. Video in the link I posted above. It's very easy) or use more coffee, say 18.5g or 19g, or tamp harder. Tamping shouldn't need to be too hard and experiment with the first two. I find my BE likes to go to 'over pressure', maybe 2 o'clock on the dial, just out of the grey 'money zone'.

What is the roast date of the beans? Were they rested?


----------



## PatienceDiminishing (Jun 23, 2020)

I was so busy yesterday I never got to make a second one, so will experiment further today.

I don't have an exact roasted date, but my supplier basically runs a hands on supply chain whereby he gets fresh beans (a few days to a week or so max) in weekly and sells the lot before getting fresh stock in again.

I have discussed this at length with him as being a newcomer to this whole experience I naturally had a lot of questions - and he can get beans according to specific roast dates if a customer has a preference, but his standard stock is basically within a 1-3 week old range.

Regarding tamping - based on a what I would say is my average 'firm' tamp (ie. a bit of vertical shoulder leverage rather than just wrist/forearm) it is in the region of 11-13kg on a digital scale, so perhaps not an exacting science


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend (Apr 15, 2020)

PatienceDiminishing said:


> I was so busy yesterday I never got to make a second one, so will experiment further today.
> 
> I don't have an exact roasted date, but my supplier basically runs a hands on supply chain whereby he gets fresh beans (a few days to a week or so max) in weekly and sells the lot before getting fresh stock in again.
> 
> ...


 If they are week old then they should be fine to try, will probably get tastier over time. It's harder to see on the standard portafilter but when I use my bottomless with beans that are too fresh I see a lot of big bubbles, looks like a big surge of coffee until it pops and it's a CO2 bubble.

One thing I would recommend that has helped me is keeping a little notepad near my coffee station, looks something like this;

New bean

Weight 18.5g Grind 19.5 Time 30 Dose 34/46g

Pretty self explanatory, I note the weight, the grind I'm using, the time it took to deliver the shot. I also note when I pushed the stop button on the machine, what it said on the scale, 34g of output and when it had stopped dripping 46g. This is useful to know when to stop the shot to get your desired output, once you've done a few shots you will get a good idea of when to stop the shot. Also if I buy these beans again I look in the book for a starting point on the grind setting and don't waste as many beans dialling in.

There really is no exact science with tamping, just getting that muscle memory to be able to do it the same every time without thinking about it, saying that I use a palm tamper because I'm absolutely shite at using a standard tamper. I would say getting a flat bed is the most important thing when tamping and there are tools you can get for this if you find it a problem like me. The difference in pressure used can effect the shot time by a few seconds slower or faster but there isn't a lot in it. Somewhere in between a feather light touch and an elephant, make it repeatable without making the process hurt your body down the line by putting too much strain on joints.


----------



## PatienceDiminishing (Jun 23, 2020)

I have one of those distribution tools (spinning top thing) on order as well.

Many will probably say having all the gadgets is no substitute for just having 'the knack' but I would rather be able to rule out obvious amateur mistakes such as uneven pucks, clumping, weight and so on,


----------



## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

Caffeinated_fiend said:


> I also note when I pushed the stop button on the machine, what it said on the scale, 34g of output and when it had stopped dripping 46g.


What machine is this ? 12g of yield after stopping the machine seems a lot. I get maybe 2-3g tops.


----------



## Caffeinated_fiend (Apr 15, 2020)

Jason11 said:


> What machine is this ? 12g of yield after stopping the machine seems a lot. I get maybe 2-3g tops.


 It was just an example, it's more like 5g


----------



## iPa64 (Jun 27, 2020)

CocoLoco said:


> I find my BE likes to go to 'over pressure', maybe 2 o'clock on the dial, just out of the grey 'money zone'.


 I found this too, for me that was the key.

*So ignore the pressure gauge! (*Sage BE/Pro/DTP etc. read this first)


----------



## PatienceDiminishing (Jun 23, 2020)

Next update (a few shots pulled over the weekend and then 4 x double shots attempted in a row a few minutes ago as had some time to experiment):

As my daughter was over on the weekend and she had like one of the other beans we had bought in the last batch, I swapped from the 'Italian Espresso' blend to the Cerro Las Ranas (El Salvador) beans on Saturday, leaving the grind setting on 2 ... and with scales and a timer, I aimed for the 18g grounds > 36g espresso approximation.

The first shot was a little sour but not as bad as some others in the past and because I have been adding hot water 'Americano' style with poor shots to at least make them drinkable, I decided I would try to over-extract as an experiment, so pulled the 2nd one as 18g ground > 46g shot and this was terrible ... very sour (or perhaps bitter - my palette is perhaps unable to accurately differentiate, but either way it was extremely bad) ... so to me, with the same grind/tamp in play, over extracting definitely worsened the result by a lot.

So this brings me to today's multi-shot experimenting.

First things first - I had been watching a Youtube video regarding Barista Express calibration where they specifically state starting the timer from when the first bit of liquid starts dropping, so I thought I would adopt this as my technique for timing ... and I now also do manual shot pulling, releasing the button from pre-infusion just as the gauge starts climbing (which is probably a couple of seconds before the drips start ... and the gauge then climbs almost instantly to around the 2 o' clock mark and even beyond that - never lower) ... so although I might be doing something wrong here, this was my 'technique' that I stuck to for today's experimenting.

First shot timed from when the first drips appeared from the portafilter run for about 15 seconds ... stopped it at around 34g which then meant around 37-38g complete.
Taste was not too bad but definitely wad the 'sour' tang.

Decided to set the grinder down to a setting of 1 as I feel the shots are running a little too quick on a timer.
With 18g of grounds tamped probably around the 10-12kg pressure, the puck seemed quite shallow and even though the idea here might be to ignore some of the 'out-of-the-box' concepts, the tamper (I use the standard one as supplied) was sinking below the silver line so I checked with the razor and it was missing the puck by a good 1mm or thereabouts ... but I pulled the shot anyway and also stopped it a little earlier to try and get closer to a 1:2 so ended up with a shot of around 35g in around 17 seconds.
Taste seemed bitter (or perhaps I am once again confusing bitter and sour), but it was not vile.

Decided to try a 19g ground to increase the puck height - still ended a little shallower than usual but pulled the shot anyway ... time was around 18 seconds for a 38g shot and this seemed to taste a lot better to my palette - still had a very slight sourish tang but definitely better.

Decided to then try slightly more grounds so ended up with a 19.8g ground and also decided not to tamp quite as hard (I know I should be keeping things consistent but) and the puck depth seemed better, visually at least. Pulled a shot of around 41g in around 20 seconds and this was by a mile and a half the best shot I have pulled to date!
Hardly any sour/bitterness (there was a very slight bit in there but barely noticeable).

So now my mind is reeling a bit in terms of settings.
I did see the suggestion above to try adjusting the internal burr to 4, but before I even go down that route, I am a little confused as to how/why I am needing to be on such a low grind setting when so many Youtube videos as well as the user manual states settings in the 7-8 range by default.
These beans were roasted less than a month ago so can surely not be classified as anywhere near stale ... and then there is the 18g of grounds from a finer grind setting resulting in a puck that is considerably lower than the suggested razor test.

So before I assume that I may be finding some sort of range that works for me - is it really normal to be on just about the finest grind setting producing a shallow 18g puck with good quality beans ... I mean, is the Barista Express that far off the mark with their razor, portafilter size and suggested grind setting?
I am just concerned that I am going to fairly extreme measures in order to get close to a good tasting espresso which is making me doubt my whole process if that makes any sense?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Don't use the razor , set your dose by grams. Coffee needS headspace to expand . The razor is a pretty pointless gimmick

The finer you grind the less volume that coffee will take upo in the basket.

Just tamp the overall pressure doesn't really impact on the shot at all.


----------



## PatienceDiminishing (Jun 23, 2020)

OK, I will bear that in mind - thank you.

Should I be sticking to an 18g dose then and try to get the same result as I got with an almost 20g dose, or is it sometimes a case of needing to up the dose in order to get things 'working for you' as such?


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

PatienceDiminishing said:


> I did see the suggestion above to try adjusting the internal burr to 4, but before I even go down that route, I am a little confused as to how/why I am needing to be on such a low grind setting when so many Youtube videos as well as the user manual states settings in the 7-8 range by default.


 People on Youtube have usually already adjusted the top burr. My favourite (Hoon's Coffee) certainly has. On normal settings the Sage BE does not grind fine enough. I think this is commonly accepted. I had a problem of very fast shots when I started, I couldn't slow them down whatever I did. I was told about the top burr and it sorted that issue. My top burr is now set to 4 and I usually grind in the 3-5 range on the dial.

18g is not set in stone. I always start with 19g and adjust from there. Right now I'm drinking an Artisan coffee that likes 19.5g. Most Rave coffees like 19g. Crankhouse I think it was, used 18.5g.

I know on Youtube some talk about first drop but most people time it from when you hit the button (ie: includes pre-infusion, from when water hits the coffee). I'd advise this as the way you are doing it we can't tell how long your pre-fusions are.


----------



## PatienceDiminishing (Jun 23, 2020)

Another update:

Been sticking to a 19g dose as the distribution tool (weighted spinning device contraption) seems to level that quantity out to a level that is not too shallow ... I know there have been comments to ignore the supplied razor, but as I am still finding my feet so to speak, I set the distribution device to be the same depth as the razor and I find a 19g dose to be right (basically self tamps with no downwards pressure required on the spinning tool whereas an 18g dose is shallower and seems barely tamped?).

Having seen a demonstration video stating that the grinder needs to be adjusted whilst in use (once again, may be incorrect info, but I tried this anyway), I emptied the hopper and using supermarket beans, I ran the grinder and moved the grinder all the way to zero and then back to 5 ... did this a few times in case there was any merit (perhaps debatable, but I figured the adjuster gear that lifts and lowers the burrs may not be entirely accurate if slowly moved up and down over multiple sessions and therefore fully closing to zero and then opening to 5 for example may be a more accurate reference of whatever 5 is as such if there is no precise calibration involved with the wheel).

Emptied out the hopper and brushed/hoovered clean ... decided to try my batch of Sons of the Amazon beans yesterday ... 19g dose, tamped purely be spinning with the distribution device, pulled a manual shot to as close to 38g as I could (took 26 seconds) and tasted the most amazing espresso shot I have pulled to date!

Almost an inch of rich dark caramel crema and was as far as I can tell, a 100% perfect shot ... absolutely delicious with a sweet taste that I have never experienced in an espresso! ... and just to be clear ... over the past week or so I have tried these same beans for interest sake and the shot was the same as any of my other "a bit sour" shots with the other beans - and this was with the grinder at 2.

Just pulled two shots now on the exact same settings - one for my daughter and the other for me ... don't know if this buggered anything up but for the first one I pressed the shot button and forgot to hold it down for manual, so stopped it a few seconds in and then restarted as a manual shot ... quite sour unfortunately ... the second one I did correctly and got around 23 seconds with a thick crema ... not quite as yummy as yesterday's and a hint of sour/bitter.

So all in all, for what it is worth - I am now for the first time able to have my grinder setting on 5 (still have not adjusted the inside burr) and have finally pulled a magic shot that is certainly inspiring as I now know what is waiting on the other end if I ever manage to get a consistency that is even close to yesterday's experience.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Hi all 👋

got a SBE for Christmas and we're I am, struggling like the OP 😪.

My situation:

- Machine pre heated and with 2 hot water cycles 
- Fresh beans, 100% Colombian, roasted 5 days ago on a local store

- Double shot single wall basket

- 16grams weight after grinding

- didn't measure tamping weight

Last shot grinder on level 8, took 20s, pressure around 12 o'clock. Undrinkable, 4 hours later I still have this horrible taste in my mouth. 2 days ago these experiments even got me nauseous and I had to pause them for one day

I've tried grinder on 7,6 and 5, pressure went to the end of the "acceptable" range, shots took around 25s, undrinkable.

I've tried also with supermarket coffee, but only single shots with same results, I thought it was the coffee but, apparently, it wasn't. What I did to mitigate it was to program the single shot to take longer (they were taking around 22s and I program to end at 25s) and with more water it become drinkable.

I'm used to drink Italian style expressos as I'm from Portugal, maybe these are different tasting and I don't like it? 🤔


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Tonydastrevaa said:


> I've tried grinder on 7,6 and 5, pressure went to the end of the "acceptable" range, shots took around 25s, undrinkable.


 Pull the shot manually (look in the manual), don't just press the button and stand back. Use 18g, not 16g, adjust from there if need be. Measure output. Beans may need longer resting time, ask roaster.

Read the pinned sticky in the Sage forum.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Hi @CocoLoco, thank you. I've read the first post on that topic, but I'll read it all.

Based on the previous comments, this is what I've tried this morning, with better results. I'll leave pictures as well.

1 - Adjusted grinder to level 3 as I was getting the shot bellow 25s

2 - Added 18gr of coffee up from the previous 16 gr

3 - Extraction took 35s but the pressure meter as a notch above the "expresso zone" which looks like it can be ignored

4 - Extraction was of 24 gr, bellow the 1:2 ratio

5 - Puck was not perfect

Coffee was drinkable, which is an improvement. What should I do to increase the ratio? Manually program the extraction time?




















































Thank you


----------



## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Program the button so that it will just give out about a minute of water (with no grounds in the portafilter) and from then on stop the shot manually when you hit the desired weight of coffee in the cup that reaches the ratio you want.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

I was doing a manual program of the extraction after lunch but something strange happened 🤔

I kept all previous parameters but increased the grind from 3 to 4 to see if I could get more water out of it within the same timeframe (35s) and reaching the desired 36grams.

It barely came out any water, tried with grind on 5, same. It took around 55s on grind 4 and 47 on grind 5 to get to the 36grs and around 14/10s to get the first drop of coffee.

Both coffees undrinkable.

The only variable that could possible change was tamping. I probably apply smaller pressure on the morning shot than the ones after lunch.

What should be the rule here? Lot's of pressure or enough just to put the grey tamper area levelled with the porta filter?


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

A few pointers here.

You're weighing the beans - 18g, you need to weight the grind output too. 18g into the BE grinder is not 18g out, there's retention in the grinder. I use a different grinder now but from memory you need 18.3g or so. Check that next time.

'enough just to put the grey tamper area levelled with the porta filter?' - Yes, You don't need to go wild with the tamping. But be advised, depending on the bean you may not be physically be able to get 18g in the portafilter. Different beans take up larger amounts of space (I think darker beans do this, can't quite remember). So amount will need to be adjusted there, don't tamp extra hard to get the beans to compact, I made this mistake early on.

'pressure meter as a notch above the "expresso zone" which looks like it can be ignored' - this is fine. My shots are always about 2 o'clock on dial. Outside espresso zone and into the horizontal lines bit.

'Manually program the extraction time?' - No, pull the shot manually. This means pressing and holding the two cup button for 7/8 seconds (preinfusion time), then release and the water will run. When you get to 36g press 2 cup button again to stop. If this time is too short, you need to make the grind finer. Too long and you are grinding too fine. If you find you can't grind fine enough you may need to adjust the inner grinder burr. There's a video for this on the Sage sticky. I had to do this.

This stuff isn't set in stone, you're aiming for a drink in 28-32 seconds, maybe a bit more, but taste is always king. I like 1:3 ratios for my coffee, I find the flavour better, so my outputs are always at the higher end.

Beans also play a part so I would stick with the same bean while learning if you can.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Thank you both!

A few comments: I always height the output of the coffee after grinding to be 18gr, the scale I'm using is only gram precise so I might have some fluctuations in there.

I've just thrown away more 250grms of coffee without being able to pull a decent shot, I'm nauseous from the coffee taste 😕 I've put up a table with what I've experimented, and the numbers do not really match even when keeping the same grind size.

What I think is that the coffee, since it's really dark roasted, tastes better on a 1:3 ratio or more, but that's probably because I'm doing something wrong, no?



Beans Height

Grind

Time

Final Height

Ratio

Time/Height

18

3

35

24

1.333333333

1.458333333

18

4

50

36

2

1.388888889

18

5

42

42

2.333333333

1

18

5

49

36

2

1.361111111

18

6

34

73

4.055555556

0.4657534247

18

7

31

42

2.333333333

0.7380952381

18

7

28

35

1.944444444

0.8


----------



## Petre (Dec 20, 2021)

The issue you see in inconsistency (keeping same settings and get different shot) might be because:

- not purging few grams of coffee when changing grind settings

- uneven distribution - use a wdt tool (the one with 9 0.4 needles works best)

- inconsistent tamping maybe

- grinder/machine overheating and perform differently

Do you use a naked portafilter? It is very important to see if your shot was evenly extracted or it was channeling.

How did your last coffee from the table tasted? If you can get consisted results with those settings you may be in a good position and only make small adjustments by taste.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Hey Petre!



> - not purging few grams of coffee when changing grind settings


 I'm only adding the height amount of beans, and I stop the grinder when it stops grinding, my input and output heights are the same, so, I'm assuming that this is not happening

One thing I did notice, as I made the grind coarser, the amount of coffee pilling up looked bigger than with finer grinding settings, is that normal?



> - uneven distribution - use a wdt tool (the one with 9 0.4 needles works best)
> 
> - inconsistent tamping maybe
> 
> - grinder/machine overheating and perform differently


 I'll build a wdt tool to see if it improves, as for tamping I always tried to make sure the grey area of tamper were in a similar position in all angles, some small variations might occur.



> Do you use a naked portafilter? It is very important to see if your shot was evenly extracted or it was channeling.


 No, I only have the default equipment that came with the machine



> How did your last coffee from the table tasted? If you can get consisted results with those settings you may be in a good position and only make small adjustments by taste.


 Since I tasted 3 at that time, I don't quite remember how it tasted compared to others, but it was on the "undrinkable" zone.

I'm out of 100% arabica Colombian beans. I now have 500grs of a mixture from the store roasted precisely a week ago.


----------



## Petre (Dec 20, 2021)

Btw, I would suggest not stamping good / bad if you make a lot of tries and not getting the coffee you hoped for. Just compare with previous shots and try to make a difference / improvement. And in general just enjoy the ride because often is long and coffee making would be boring if you would get great coffee from the start


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

> And in general just enjoy the ride because often is long and coffee making would be boring if you would get great coffee from the start


 Tell that to my wife  she is complaining that I made her stop drinking coffee because they are undrinkable 

I'll do a new run tomorrow with the blend coffee, let's see. BTW I believe that the coffees I'm using are dark roasted


----------



## Petre (Dec 20, 2021)

Maybe she would enjoy Late/Cappuccinos  ? My partner grimaces even at the best espresso shots I make, but give her steamed milk coffee with a random shot I dialed in that morning?! I make her day


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Yes, she enjoy cappuccinos  but she also enjoyed expressos from our previous automatic machine, which she is turning on to use again


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

You don't have a constant time or weight in that in that table so it doesn't tell you anything. You should be stopping the flow at the same weight each time. Or at the same number of seconds each time. Then depending on the result, adjusting the grind setting.

Forget the ratio for now, set a constant and work from there.


----------



## Petre (Dec 20, 2021)

Wait, I thought the table contains the weights, and that "height" in the column header is a typo, am I wrong?


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

CocoLoco said:


> You don't have a constant time or weight in that in that table so it doesn't tell you anything. You should be stopping the flow at the same weight each time. Or at the same number of seconds each time. Then depending on the result, adjusting the grind setting.
> 
> Forget the ratio for now, set a constant and work from there.


 That's correct, it was because first I was trying to keep the Sage default extraction time and aim for the 35s by tweaking the grinder/amount. Then I changed my approach to keep same weight and aim to the 1:2 and see what time it took and that's with what I'm sticking to. The table is not ordered by date/time but by grind size.



Petre said:


> Wait, I thought the table contains the weights, and that "height" in the column header is a typo, am I wrong?


 Yes, that's a typo, it should be "Weight".

By the way, this morning coffee: OH MY GOD ????????

So, I've switched coffee as my previous one has ended for a blend created from the owner of the local store in 1942, really popular in my town.



Bean Weight

Grind

Time

Weight

Ratio

Time/Height

18

5

37.3

37

2.055555556

1.008108108


I've mixed the coffee with a toothpick as I haven't built yet a wdt tool and tamped like previous ones, not too strong but to keep the grey area of the puck levelled with the porta filter.

Although there was definitely some channelling as the initial 10s one of the coffee tips was only dripping (after that it normalised), this was by far the best coffee I've extracted on my machine, such a tick crema, flavoured, loved it.










Downside: my wife still didn't like it, but that is due to the fact that she likes less strong coffees than I. We'll have to search one she likes


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

That's great news! Now you have proper beans you can trust the results more, they'll be more consistent.

Don't forget to just change one variable at a time, keep everything else the same. You can now tweak to improve. I'd suggest sticking with this bean you have found and the next bean will behave differently. Once you are more adept at 'dialling in' you'll find it only takes a cup or two when you change beans.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Hello frustration my old friend.

I really don't know what is happening, could my machine have any defect? I took 2 doubles after lunch with terrible results.

The machine was off, like this morning, heated for 30m, 2 cycles of water to warm everything up, same coffee, used a toothpick to still the grind beans, same weights, etc.

Table:



Bean Weight

Grind

Time

Weight

Ratio

Time/Height



18

5

52

25

1.388888889

2.08



18

5

53

24

1.333333333

2.208333333
 

I stoped both extractions at around 50s as this was completely off. Coffee only dripped from the porta filter for the most part of it like the machine was struggling to push the water. I've tamped the same way as this morning, so I didn't apply much pressure, levelled the tamper, etc.

I'm really confused by this results... Coffee was undrinkable but still clearly better than the Colombian one when this happened, but that's probably to do with my personal tastes preference.


----------



## Petre (Dec 20, 2021)

When you change the grind settings you will be dealing with grinder retention, that is your new grind settings will reflect only after few grams later. Thus, you might need to purge something, say 5g after you've done a change. There is also the machine temperature. If you used the grinder for a lot of shots the burrs and motor gets hot and it does not have the same settings as cold. Your beans might evolve too. You just got the beans that sat in a different evironment with possibly a differnt humidity than in your home.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Petre said:


> When you change the grind settings you will be dealing with grinder retention, that is your new grind settings will reflect only after few grams later. Thus, you might need to purge something, say 5g after you've done a change. There is also the machine temperature. If you used the grinder for a lot of shots the burrs and motor gets hot and it does not have the same settings as cold. Your beans might evolve too. You just got the beans that sat in a different evironment with possibly a differnt humidity than in your home.


 Hey Petre, does that retention also happens when you put the a fixed amount of grains? When I'm grinding I do grind until I ear the sound of no beans being grind. This is what it looks like after grinding:

There are some beans but they are not grinded









So last night I was using the grinder on level 7, I've moved it to 5 this morning, even if 5gr were grind on level 7, would that be enough to have this enormous difference I'm seeing?

Grinder was used once this morning and twice after lunch, so I don't think that it would make any difference.

Beans were in the same place for the past 7 days, only opened this morning and after lunch.


----------



## Petre (Dec 20, 2021)

Yeah, I think grinding a dose at once might help minimising the retention but you will still have some, BE is not a highend low retention grinder like Niche. Nevertheless, now you have to adjust the grinder again to get the brew time you want - probably 25-30 and then you can make micro adjustments by taste, hopefully will remain stable for longer period this time.


----------



## Petre (Dec 20, 2021)

Another practical suggestion: it is usually better to start dialing in from coarser to finer and not the other way around. If you get a 1:2 in 18-20 sec for example it will be under extracted and a bit watery but at least you have something to taste/drink. If you go too fine you may not get anything passing through the puck or you get a bitter, over extracted 50 sec shot.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

That's a good suggestion, thanks!

Nevertheless, something needs to be off here...

For afternoon break I decided to pull a new shot, I moved the grinder back to 7 - as it was yesterday - and grind 10 grs of coffee to make sure the grind is correct. The previous steps were also followed. This was what happened:



Bean Weight

Grind

Time

Weight

Ratio

Time/Height

18

7

47

28

1.555555556

1.678571429


Although it extracted more coffee than after lunch, this does not make any sense based on what happened on the morning shot!

I've not changed anything else, what kind of sorcery is this? 😱


----------



## Petre (Dec 20, 2021)

Heh, hard to say. You probably have to get used with its quirks. Make some more shots, purge some grounds if you change settings and observe the changes.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Has someone else experienced the same??


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

@CocoLocoyou can extract same conclusions without the need to wait for the weight to reach the 36gr if it's way above the 40 seconds, something is off, and the changes happening without changing anything are really weird.


----------



## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

1) How confident are you that you did everything exactly the same as you did when you did the 'good' shot? Unless you've pulled many good shots, your tamping pressure is probably a bit different.

2) The beans have aged again - this could still make a difference.

3) If your grinder has had less than 3kg of beans through it, it is still settling in.

4) Different day, so different temperature/humidity.

5) From the last two tables, you had 2 shots at grind 5/~25g/~50s and 1 shot at grind 7/28g/47s. Try grind 9 and keep everything else the same. If that's too coarse, try grind 8.

I tend to find you can go coarser with fresher beans then go a bit finer, a week at a time usually, as they age.

And, yes, it's usually very frustrating until you get the hang of it.


----------



## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)




----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Thank you @-Mac!

Well, after the dinner experiments, you might be right about the tamping. That might be it, since I'm really new to this and although I think I am applying the same pressure, I did the exercise of pulling 2 shots where on the first I was applying some pressure and on the other much less pressure, keeping the rest the same, and I think that it might be it. These were the 2 shots:



Bean Weight

Grind

Time

Weight

Ratio

Time/Height

18

6

35

38

2.111111111

0.9210526316

18

6

30

49

2.722222222

0.612244898


I forgot to add the scale on the latest shot that's why I ended up with 49 grams, for the 36grams it should have stopped around 22 seconds.

From what I've read, and although the tamper does not define a good shot, if it's inconsistent it can create different outcomes. And this looks true specially on the lower pressure end. So - while I don't have a palm distributer/tamper - I though that I should probably go coarser and try to apply more pressure when tamping as on the higher pressure end at some point the difference when it comes to extraction time is less noticeable. WDYT?

Sources:











The hole set:



Bean Weight

Grind

Time

Weight

Ratio

Time/Height

18

5

49

38

2.111111111

1.289473684

18

6

50

37

2.055555556

1.351351351

18

6

35

38

2.111111111

0.9210526316

18

6

30

49

2.722222222

0.612244898


Also, is it normal that courser grains makes it look like you've more coffee than with finer ones? The pile looks bigger and more grains fall out when tamping.



> 2) The beans have aged again - this could still make a difference.


 We're talking 3/4 hours difference between extraction, would that have such a big impact? 🤔



> 3) If your grinder has had less than 3kg of beans through it, it is still settling in.


 It has no more than 2Kg for sure.



> 4) Different day, so different temperature/humidity.


 It was same day, breakfast to lunch

Thank you all for your help, I'm confident I'll get there (I hope)


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Tonydastrevaa said:


> @CocoLocoyou can extract same conclusions without the need to wait for the weight to reach the 36gr if it's way above the 40 seconds, something is off, and the changes happening without changing anything are really weird.


 Yes but you have three variables. Your weight should say 36g or whatever you are aiming for, every time. Then the adjustment is the grind. Obviously if you have very little coffee at 28 seconds it's not right, but you need a constant to measure against and adjust grind accordingly. Of course there's everything else I assume you are doing right - running 3/4 dummy shots for instance to get the water hot enough, distributing the grounds properly with a WDT tool of some kind or knocking it with your hand, weighing to make sure you do actually have 18g of grounds before you start.

Also, the tamper that comes with the BE is rubbish. My shots got a lot better when I bought a proper one. This is what most people get:

https://blackcatcoffee.co.uk/collections/tampers/products/motta-53mm-flat-bottom-wood-and-metal-tamper

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Motta-8140-Tamper-Stainless-Steel/dp/B00B27N9BM/ref=sr_1_5?crid=807P0QRQA0WK&keywords=motta+tamper+53mm&qid=1641458373&sprefix=motta+ta%2Caps%2C393&sr=8-5

You say grinds are falling out the side so there's not 18g in the pf. You need a dosing ring. I got this one:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Iycorish-Ring，Espresso-Anti-Flying-Accessories-Portafilter/dp/B08CB7K6QS/ref=sr_1_21?crid=1PUT5WZ2S1TPM&keywords=53mm+coffee+dosing+cup&qid=1641459414&sprefix=53mm+coffee%2Caps%2C1019&sr=8-21

What you are saying about physical space grinds take up, that's right, sometimes I find I need to drop the dose. 17.5g, or 17g.

The BE grinder's main problem is inconsistency so there's always going to be some variance.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Today's measures. I was only able to drink coffee in the morning, I'm having so much coffees that I had to pause it a little bit as it's messing with my system 😓. I'm nauseous only for thinking about coffee 😅

Like I mentioned I started adding more pressure on my tamping to try to reduce the impact on the extractions. I was able to pull 2 shots pretty similar with the same grind size. I think I'll keep the 9 size if I can have similar results for the next few times and reduce grind to 8 after that to try to put the time more close to the 30/35s.



Bean Weight

Grind

Time

Weight

Ratio

Time/Height

18

10

22

36

2

0.6111111111

18

9

22

39

2.166666667

0.5641025641

18

9

23.5

39

2.166666667

0.6025641026


Also, these dark roasted beans are really really strong on this machine. The same beans used on my Siemens fully automatic machine produce much more watery coffees, that now does not have any taste, but the current 1:2 ratio is too strong, I'll probably change it to 1:3 for these beans later on and also try other beans less roasted.



CocoLoco said:


> Of course there's everything else I assume you are doing right - running 3/4 dummy shots for instance to get the water hot enough, distributing the grounds properly with a WDT tool of some kind or knocking it with your hand, weighing to make sure you do actually have 18g of grounds before you start.


 Yes, I'm doing that



CocoLoco said:


> You say grinds are falling out the side so there's not 18g in the pf. You need a dosing ring. I got this one:


 That's why I always weight 19 grams of beans and then make sure that after tamping the weight is 18, but yes I need a dosing ring or cup.



CocoLoco said:


> Also, the tamper that comes with the BE is rubbish. My shots got a lot better when I bought a proper one. This is what most people get:


 I was thinking on buying something like this:


----------



## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Tonydastrevaa said:


> I was thinking on buying something like this:


 Yep, they work. I have the separates version, a palm tamper and a distributor.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Hey 👋

I wanted to leave my week update so you can follow my (un)interesting journey with my SBE.

A couple of things happened on the past 7 days.

In regards to my extractions, since the coffee I had was a dark roasted one meant for Italian/Portuguese expresso coffee style I decided to lower my dose from 18 grams to 14 grams and to extract around 56 grams of coffee. These settings were the ones that came closer to the coffee I'm used to, so I could also do a better judgment on the coffee taste.

Like mentioned earlier I was suspecting tamping could be the reason my problems and by fixing dose and extraction it looked even more obvious that it could be the case as extractions continued to be inconsistent. I ordered a palm tamper - which arrived 2 days ago - and a timemore scale - still not arrived. And after 4 tamps I've realised something really important: my kitchen scale was not precise as when I've tamped the first coffee I've adjusted the tamper, but on my second shot it was off by lack. I've adjusted it further and on my third it was off again by excess and on the forth it was off by lack.

when I say it was off by excess it means the volume of coffee was more than what I've set the tamper to as I couldn't make the tamper reach the limit I've set it to.

Readings



Bean Weight

Grind

Time

Weight

Ratio

Time/Height



14

7

34

36

2.571428571

0.9444444444



14

7



54

3.857142857

0

same shot as above

14

7

23

36

2.571428571

0.6388888889



14

7



56

4

0

same shot as above

14

7

24.5

36

2.571428571

0.6805555556



14

7

33

54

3.857142857

0.6111111111

same shot as above

14

7

20

36

2.571428571

0.5555555556



14

7

26

57

4.071428571

0.4561403509

same shot as above

14

7

21.5

36

2.571428571

0.5972222222



14

7

28.5

57

4.071428571

0.5

Same shot as above

14

7

17.5

36

2.571428571

0.4861111111



14

7

20.5

36

2.571428571

0.5694444444



14

7

25.5

62

4.428571429

0.4112903226

Same shot as above

14

7

22

36

2.571428571

0.6111111111



14

7

27

56

4

0.4821428571

Same shot as above

14

7

21

36

2.571428571

0.5833333333



14

7

28

56

4

0.5

Same shot as above

14

7

30

63

4.5

0.4761904762

Same shot as above

14

7

29

36

2.571428571

0.8055555556

Started tamping

14

7

36

59

4.214285714

0.6101694915

Same shot as above

14

7

22.5

36

2.571428571

0.625



14

7

28

59

4.214285714

0.4745762712

Same shot as above

14

7

21.5

36

2.571428571

0.5972222222



14

7

27

56

4

0.4821428571

Same shot as above

14

7

26

36

2.571428571

0.7222222222



14

7

32.78

58

4.142857143

0.5651724138

Same shot as above

14

7

17.31

36

2.571428571

0.4808333333



14

7

20.5

57

4.071428571

0.3596491228

Same shot as above

14

7

26

36

2.571428571

0.7222222222



14

7

32.5

56

4

0.5803571429

Same shot as above


When extracting coffee I've also measure the seconds it took to reach 36Grams, not all extractions ended on 56 grams due to the the drips that fall after the extraction is stopped.

The best shots were the ones that reached 36 grams around 23-26s and 56 around 30-35s.

What made me reduce the dose and not to try to pull speciality coffees like expressos with this coffee was the other event of the week. I've visited my first speciality coffee to chat with the barista and to get some opinions on what I could improve (it was before the palmer arrived) and I tried my first speciality coffees, a 100% arabica from costa rica, and it was something really odd. I've never drink coffee that tasted like it, some flavours I liked, others I couldn't tell and the acidity I didn't like. I tried other ones and I've brought home Brazil and Kenya arabicas.

I haven't pulled shots with them yet as I really need a scale to calibrate it properly otherwise I'll be wasting the coffee...

Next weekend I'll try to visit another coffee shop that also has some blends of arabica + robusta to beginners like me as these flavours are all new.

I've also read this interesting site https://learninglatte.com/ that tells me that my SGB runs above the 9 bar pressure as all my shots were all on the 1-2 o'clock area.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

While I wait for the scale, I have an offtopic question:

can I use the SBE grinder to grind for moka? I'd have to user the coarser setting I know, but not sure if the grinder grinds coarser enough.

thank you


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Anyone?


----------



## ChrisCohenTV (Nov 22, 2018)

Not sure where you are at with this, as I've not read through every page but I was having a very similar issue with my Sage Oracle Touch. I was finding I was getting either sour or bitter coffee almost every time and I was starting to think everyone who claimed they could taste "fruits" or "Caramel" or "Chocolate" in their espresso was on some secret payroll to just say espresso tasted better than it did.

Anyway, I purchased (two days ago) a Niche Zero and started grinding with that and doing everything else on the Oracle and OH MY DAYS the difference is phenomenal. The coffee I was using was Sweetshop from Square Mile and I was so miffed by the reports of it being mega fruity and sweet etc - but then I tasted it with the Niche grind and it's every bit as fruity as they sell it as. It's a revelation to be honest. I'm ordering other espressos left right and centre now because I can finally taste what everyone has been banging on about.

It might not be the issue you're having but it certainly was a total game changer for me.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Well, after I gained some confidence with this machine with the previous coffee, I'm getting frustrated again...

This machine does not seem suited for beginners, other than the price. I'm not sure what I am doing wrong, but whatever it is, this machine is not forgiven enough to not change dramatically the results. Also, my machine runs in much higher pressure than 9 bar, best shots are always off the espresso range, which seems to be common and problematic, check this post section "Pressure gauge".

So, after I thought I've understood the machine, after my supermarket beans ended I opened the bag of specialty coffee from Kenya, medium roasted, 15 days ago. Since I had only tried specialty coffees 3 times, but not this one from Kenya, I was not sure what to expect from this coffee.

*Extraction flavour*

First extractions seamed "ok" but I always got an "acid" finish every sip at my mouth. Since acidity come from the initial extraction and the shots were taking around 36s that didn't match. My conclusion is that I am probably mixing acidity with bitterness. Being used to Italian like espressos, which are much more bitter than the speciality coffees I've tried, these coffees are not bitter at all, what is evident is the acidity, that is new for me. Does that make sense?

On my home shots I couldn't task any notes like I did when I tried the coffee at the coffee house, but since I did not try this one, not sure what to expect.

*Extraction Problems*

Just to recap all extractions were made with these steps:

- I extracted enough coffee to fill the puck that when tampering with the palm tamper set with the same depth as the razor tool I couldn't go 100% to the end, after that I use the razor tool to remove the excess

- Pre-heat machine 15 min and took 3 single shots with no coffee to warm up everything

- Applied a good amount of strength when tampering

My first shot was with previous coffee settings, just to test the waters, with the grind at 4. The machine couldn't end the shot as after more than 1 minute it has only extracted 21 grams of coffee.

Given that, I increased the grind to 7 and I got what I would call a set of more consistent shots. The first one took more time due to what I suspect was the grinder retention, but the others were all in the 29-35s range during that day.

Next day the only shot I extracted took 36s, which I considered within the ok range.

The shots I extracted today changed drastically and I can't understand why. Suddenly, the machine started choking with the same settings and extractions couldn't be finished after almost 1 minute.

I moved the grinder to 9 and the next shot took 22s, moved to 8 and I couldn't even stopped it properly as the water was flowing too quick, these were the only 2 shots that the machine did not surpass the espresso range. Which means that I would need to go again to level 7, the same that was working and started choking the machine!

How can this be explained??? Although some beans stayed on the hopper from one day to the other, I kept them on the same bag, which was air sealed on my store room.

The bag ended, so I can't try another shot 

Even though I know the scale is off (the timemore is taking too long to arrive  ), I still weight the coffee in and out:



Bean Weight

Grind

Time

Weight

Ratio

Day

Pressure

~

4

61

21



1

3 o'clock, next black line after the dotted

16

7

37.5

43

2.6875

1

3 o'clock, next black line after the dotted

17

7

34

43

2.529411765

1

3 o'clock, next black line after the dotted

21

7

29.5

42

2

1

2 line after espresso range

20

7

35

39

1.95

1

4 line after espresso range

20

7

29

42

2.1

1

2 line after espresso range

20

7

36

41

2.05

2

3 line after espresso range

20

7

41

37

1.85

3

3 o'clock, next black line after the dotted

20

7

52.5

29

1.45

3

3 o'clock, next black line after the dotted

20

7

52.5

27

1.35

3

3 o'clock, next black line after the dotted

20

9

21.5

43

2.15

3

last gray block of espresso range, in the middle

19

8

22

47

2.473684211

3

last gray block of espresso range, in the middle


BTW, I'm used to drink 3/4 single shots a day (Italian style) I'd have to either reduce the number for these kind of coffees or go single shot again. Otherwise is too much caffeine and too expensive 

Thank you!


----------



## Alexvs (Jan 11, 2022)

Hi, first post but been lurking a while and owner of a BE for about 3 years but hopefully can be a little help at least as recently been testing a lot based on learnings from the forum.

TLDR/short version, use the settings suggested as your guide and then find what's best for your bean/taste but changing as little as possible each time. Ignore the machine guides (gauge level and razor). The beans should be your initial most consistent piece for the testing. Once you have something consistent, dialing in new beans is easier.

For background I've always used the out of the box settings for shot length and never weighed etc, so basically been doing it all wrong forever haha.

I've been using fresh roasted beans for maybe 6 months or so and that made a drastic difference, even with the auto shot times. I'd been getting about 19-20g out (using a questionable kitchen scale) after grinding previously and with the auto settings about a 1:3 ratio in 23 - 25s at a grind level of 6, which gets me the pressure and flow I think is "good" based on my taste. Tasted pretty good to me and the wife anyway.

This weekend I ordered a scale and dual head palm distributor/tamper which completely messed up my drinkable cappuccinos (don't drink espresso) but was always going to happen while I adjust. I also started single dosing after completely emptying the last batch from the hopper. Anyway I now weigh in and out and time the shot (when I remember to press stop).

Attempt 1 - just over 18g in (can't remember exact), 18g out, under pressure, too quick, I'd set the tamp too low so not enough pressure on the bed.

Attempt 2 - 19g in and out, under pressure, too quick, set tamp to match OE tamp and still not enough.

Attempt 3 - 20g in and out, perfect pressure, extended both distributor and tamp deeper than razor and OE tamp which gave me much more to work with. On this one I also stopped the shot at just over 40g when I stopped day dreaming and ended up with 46g out. Forgot to stop the timer as just getting used to all these new tools haha. Taste for me was much better but still on the weak side.

I'll be doing my next test at lunch time. In all my tests I keep the grind the same as know I'm pretty much at the right point for my bean, possibly could drop 1 more. I personally think 19g is a minimum for the BE double basket and seems 20g for my beans at the current grind level. The only thing I've got to work out now is setting the tamp right, or leaving it extended as I have and the final output ratio that tastes best, leaning towards a 1:3.

Maybe do a test when you have more beans, ignoring the razor and extending out the tamp so you're not being stopped from getting enough force. My positioning for consistency is, side on with elbow at 90 ish degrees and pushing down. I just make sure there's enough headroom between the coffee bed and shower screen. Talking about shower screen, have you removed it to give it a clean recently? I just did a full clean and descale last week and always make sure I remove the screen and clean it all out which ensures there's no potential blockages to disrupt the flow.

Sorry for the long message but don't get put off, you'll get there, just find consistency and tweak 1 thing at a time.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

My one piece of advice is not to let the "pressure gauge " drive your adjustments.

Make a shot as you have been doing , weigh in and out , not time , again dont make time the primary driver for adjustments .

Taste shot, evaluate , is it too strong or weak? Where does the Taste imbalance lie ? Use these to drive your adjustment .


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Tonydastrevaa said:


> Well, after I gained some confidence with this machine with the previous coffee, I'm getting frustrated again...
> 
> This machine does not seem suited for beginners, other than the price. I'm not sure what I am doing wrong, but whatever it is, this machine is not forgiven enough to not change dramatically the results. Also, my machine runs in much higher pressure than 9 bar, best shots are always off the espresso range, which seems to be common and problematic, check this post section "Pressure gauge".
> 
> ...


 THe shots at the end of that spreadsheet are real outliers aren't they ? Retention will be at play possibly , you share not filling the hopper up at the start of the day and letting it run down end of the day?


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Mrboots2u said:


> THe shots at the end of that spreadsheet are real outliers aren't they ? Retention will be at play possibly , you share not filling the hopper up at the start of the day and letting it run down end of the day?


 Yes, but I can't understand why! Some beans were left from the previous day yes, but not even enough to use for the first shot. I needed to add more. So next ones were beans from the bag.

regarding pressure gauge, it is not driving my extractions, as you can see most of my shots are out of the espresso range, but it indicates that the machine pressure is higher than the 9 bar, which make it less forgiven to errors during preparation, making it not a good machine for beginners.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Timemore scale has finally arrived!

Opened the Brazilian coffee medium roasted, roasted 20 days ago.

First shot, 20 grams, grinder on 7, 40 grams in 51.65s

Segond shot, decided to decrease dose to 18 grams, grinder on 7, 40 grams in 56s.

F*ck logic! I am clueless on what is going on here.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tonydastrevaa said:


> Timemore scale has finally arrived!
> 
> Opened the Brazilian coffee medium roasted, roasted 20 days ago.
> 
> ...


 Why are you messing with the dose weight so greatly?

Why are you not attributing a taste score to these data?



Tonydastrevaa said:


> First extractions seamed "ok" but I always got an "acid" finish every sip at my mouth. Since acidity come from the initial extraction and the shots were taking around 36s that didn't match.


 What doesn't match? Just because your shot takes 36s doesn't mean it can't be under-extracted.

Slow down, stop changing so many inputs so often.

Make a few shots at the same parameters & really think about what is wrong and state it as you find it, don't try 2nd guessing the fault.

Update after each setting, so that people reading can see a progression. There is no clear intention, or course of action here, nor a clear fault...other than shots are sour, but you think they're bitter because of the country you live in...which makes no sense. I drink a lot of Italian espresso & lemons are still sour & highly hopped beers/100% cacao are still bitter.

Beginner machines are cheap machines, that's what you & most beginners have.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Thank you for your help @MWJB



> Why are you messing with the dose weight so greatly?
> 
> Why are you not attributing a taste score to these data?


 Both shots were watery, with almost no acidity.

I changed the dose as the first shot was clearly over extracted, shouldn't the extraction time decrease? 🤔



> Slow down, stop changing so many inputs so often.


 For the previous Kenyan coffee I didn't change any input and suddenly, one day, the extraction was completely off. I can't find an explanation for that 



> Update after each setting, so that people reading can see a progression. There is no clear intention, or course of action here, nor a clear fault...other than shots are sour, but you think they're bitter because of the country you live in...which makes no sense. I drink a lot of Italian espresso & lemons are still sour & highly hopped beers/100% cacao are still bitter.


 Indeed, I'd relate more the problem with the fact that I've only tried 3 speciality coffees before start extraction my own, since it's a new taste for me, understanding sourness vs bitterness on it it's more difficult.



> Beginner machines are cheap machines, that's what you & most beginners have.


 When something is good for beginners usually is because it is easy to start with, it's not only related to pricing, and this machine does not look suited for beginners 



> Make a few shots at the same parameters & really think about what is wrong and state it as you find it, don't try 2nd guessing the fault.


 Since both shots were watery should I grind coarser or reduce dose? I saw on one of James Hoffmann videos that lower doses are easier to give better extractions but before I had a proper scale I couldn't change it for consistency.

Thanks!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tonydastrevaa said:


> Both shots were watery, with almost no acidity.
> 
> I changed the dose as the first shot was clearly over extracted, shouldn't the extraction time decrease? 🤔


 Both shots were watery because you ground too coarse. Did you prefer the lack of aciditity? Is what you want a more concentrated shot, with manageable acidity? If so, grind finer.

Extraction time is not a metric that you can use. Focus on the grind setting, keeping the dose constant (18.0g) and hitting your target weight out with a flavour balance you like.



Tonydastrevaa said:


> Indeed, I'd relate more the problem with the fact that I've only tried 3 speciality coffees before start extraction my own, since it's a new taste for me, understanding sourness vs bitterness on it it's more difficult.


 Forget sourness & bitterness, focus on how much you like it and how that tracks grind size. Sourness usually means under-extraction, but it can mean you bought a coffee that tastes of rhubarb/mango/passionfruit and has no malfunction.



Tonydastrevaa said:


> Since both shots were watery should I grind coarser or reduce dose? I saw on one of James Hoffmann videos that lower doses are easier to give better extractions


 Your basket take 18g very happily, stick with that. Hoffmann has not shown any relationship between dose & extraction.

Which of the shots in the last 12 you listed, tasted best?


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

MWJB said:


> Both shots were watery because you ground too coarse. Did you prefer the lack of aciditity? Is what you want a more concentrated shot, with manageable acidity? If so, grind finer.
> 
> Extraction time is not a metric that you can use. Focus on the grind setting, keeping the dose constant (18.0g) and hitting your target weight out with a flavour balance you like.
> 
> ...


 🤔🤔 I've been so focused on the yield on the "right" range that clearly missed these signals! It makes perfect sense that if the shot is watery the grind is to coarse but I was so focused on the time it took that my solution to this would be to grind even coarser! I prefer shots with balanced acidity with more pronounced flavors.
this Brazilian coffee I tried at the coffee shop and I was amazed with the flavors I sensed. I didn't like the acidity initially, but a couple of days after I found myself craving for that 😅

So, I should look at it by flavor and not time. "Strong" and more dense/acid coffees were grind finer and more watery grind coarser. Right?

Is it still normal that the coffee from one day to another behave so differently regarding like happened to me? Meaning that what was a "ok" grind setting suddenly became too coarse as the shots were fast and watery?

the shots I liked the most were the ones that took between 29.5 and 35. They were balanced in the acidity, the problem I found was that no real evidence of other flavors. 
if I need to relate that with the shots I've tried on the coffee shot, they were probably more acid and that's why they had more flavors present.

thanks a lot! Your comments made me think on my current process rather than telling me what to do, which I think it's really important. Without knowing how to identify what's happening it's hard to know how to act.


----------



## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

>>When something is good for beginners usually is because it is easy to start with, it's not only related to pricing, and this machine >>does not look suited for beginners

Espresso machines don't come in beginner/intermediate/expert, they only have more or fewer features/tech. It's the knowledge and experience of the person using them that makes the difference. If you stop going off and doing your own thing and do what people suggest instead, it will go a lot quicker for you when people advise you.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

-Mac said:


> >>When something is good for beginners usually is because it is easy to start with, it's not only related to pricing, and this machine >>does not look suited for beginners
> 
> Espresso machines don't come in beginner/intermediate/expert, they only have more or fewer features/tech. It's the knowledge and experience of the person using them that makes the difference. If you stop going off and doing your own thing and do what people suggest instead, it will go a lot quicker for you when people advise you.


 That's what I've been doing since I got the machine. What I've found is that everyone has a different method/suggestion 🥲

to help, the timemore scale is not working properly, I need to ask for a replacement 😩 FML


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tonydastrevaa said:


> "Strong" and more dense/acid coffees were grind finer and more watery grind coarser. Right?


 If a coffee is overly strong for you, push more water through the puck to make it weaker, grind coarser if necessary so as not to flatten the acidity.

If a coffee is very acidic, grind finer. If it is weak but balanced push less water through the puck, grind finer if acidity becomes overbearing.



Tonydastrevaa said:


> s it still normal that the coffee from one day to another behave so differently regarding like happened to me? Meaning that what was a "ok" grind setting suddenly became too coarse as the shots were fast and watery?


 You may want to grind finer as the beans age. Big changes in behaviour don't strike me as normal. But you're making tiny drinks (espresso), so, again, make few at the same setting (if drinkable) see what is normal variation.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

MWJB said:


> If a coffee is overly strong for you, push more water through the puck to make it weaker, grind coarser if necessary so as not to flatten the acidity.
> 
> If a coffee is very acidic, grind finer. If it is weak but balanced push less water through the puck, grind finer if acidity becomes overbearing.
> 
> You may want to grind finer as the beans age. Big changes in behaviour don't strike me as normal. But you're making tiny drinks (espresso), so, again, make few at the same setting (if drinkable) see what is normal variation.


 What is strange is that those 12 extractions had the same setting and suddenly the extraction time increased dramatically.

Nevertheless, I'll ignore time and focus only on dose (fixed at 18grams), yield and flavor.

I think I took a step in the right direction. Since other extractions were watery I decided to go back to the same grind but reduce yield. So, I've grind 18.2 grams on 7 and aimed for a 1:1.7 ratio, extracting 29.8 grams. (Ended up 1:1.63)

Probably the closest shot to the one I drank on the coffee shop and the best one I did with specialty coffee.

it had a stronger taste, with more pronounced flavors, it had also increased acidity, but still ok. Although I stirred the coffee with a spoon, last 2 sips were the best, with even more taste, I'd like to aim so something like these last 2 sips without increasing acidity. Should I reduce yield a little more or grind one step finer? 🤔

Not relevant but shot took 37s and pressure gauge went to 2 o'clock.

*EDIT*

I took another shot after dinner. Exact same settings, the only difference was that the coffee weight was 18.3gr instead of 18.2gr, extracting 30.2 (1:1.65). Shot was again watery, like the initial ones.

it took ~1 min to extract and pressure gauge went again to 2 o'clock.

I'm again unsure what happened&#8230; Could it be a grinder consistency problem?

This lack of consistency is driving me nuts.

Thank you!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The shots have high acidity because your ratio is short. Because your ratio is short, you are grinding fine to extend shot time. I would go by the 1 minute shot as being normal, the quicker shot was probably the outlier.

A 1:1.65 shot will only be watery if there is a major malfunction like impermeable puck/fractured puck.

Go a click coarser.

What is the ratio you are aiming for?

Grinders aren't inconsistent, people are. Can you make a video of your prep and a shot?


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

MWJB said:


> The shots have high acidity because your ratio is short. Because your ratio is short, you are grinding fine to extend shot time. I would go by the 1 minute shot as being normal, the quicker shot was probably the outlier.
> 
> A 1:1.65 shot will only be watery if there is a major malfunction like impermeable puck/fractured puck.
> 
> ...


 And, you're right 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

I checked my notes and photos and I saw that before the ~36s shot, I took one for my wife from another beans with grinder at 10&#8230;

I don't know how much is the retention on this machine but clearly is considerable 😤😤

so yes, I need to grind coarser. I liked the 36s shot just wanted a little more clarity on flavors without increasing acidity. What would be the solution? Find the previous grind setting to achieve the same as the 36s shot and then grind one step coarser to keep acidity?

btw these 1 min shots were not acid at all, but watery, weak and almost no acid.

Thank you!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tonydastrevaa said:


> I liked the 36s shot just wanted a little more clarity on flavors without increasing acidity. What would be the solution?


 For me the answer would be to pull more weight out, but it depends on how intense/concentrated you need the shot to be.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Increasing yield? What would be your suggestion, 1:2?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tonydastrevaa said:


> Increasing yield? What would be your suggestion, 1:2?


 Depends on the coffee, try 1:2, 1:2.5, 1:3 see where things go wrong for you.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

I'll give it a try and report


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Hey 👋

Here I am again completely confused and frustrated. I'm 2 days away from the deadline to return this machine and I'm about to as this is an impossible mission.

As suggested, I moved the grinder one click up, to 8. I've grinded ~10 grams of coffee just to make sure I was getting all the coffee from the same grind. First shot took 39s to a 1:2 ratio, it was balanced, but again not many flavours pronounced, but that might be due to the fact that the beans are reaching 1 month from the roast date, not sure.

Next shot with same settings took 51s to reach 1:2 and the coffee was watery.

The one after stopped alone at 62s with just 8.3 grams of yeld.

Moved the grinder from 8 to 10, again 2 shots of more than 1 minute that ended with a small amount of coffee out. Moved to 14 and I was able to pull a shot of 1:2 in ~20s that was too acid.



Bean Weight

Grind

Time

Weight

Ratio

17.9

8

39

36.9

2.061452514

18.4

8

51

36.4

1.97826087

18.2

8

62

8.3

0.456043956

18.1

10

61

4.1

0.226519337

18.2

10

62

2.9

0.1593406593

18.3

14

20

36.2

1.978142077


The weigh measure is taken after grinded, all shots were leveled and tamped with a Palm tamper.

These shots were taken on 27th January, one after the other, and the shots before these were took on 25th.

I've attached some pictures of the first shot of the sequence.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I cant explain the huge outliers you are seeing, for your own police of mind id return the machine


----------



## Alexvs (Jan 11, 2022)

In over 2 years of owning the BE I've not had this much inconsistency. Once dialled in its generally very close from shot to shot but then I don't run it back to back for more than 2. How are you storing your beans? It seems like they could be your problem if there's such difference on the same settings. Or there are clumps and you're tamping down on that giving an inconsistent bed. Top will always look nice due to distribution and tamping. I saw a tip about wiggling and jiggling the PF while grinding and have always done so to help distribution into the basket before any prep.

The main problem here is you have no consistent reference for the grind, to then adjust other things, you still jump around a lot. I'd get some fresher beans, start around 7 and leave grind exactly the same until you can rule out everything else. Once weight and prep are consistent, you then go to grind.

If you're really unhappy then return or exchange to rule out a machine issue.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Alexvs said:


> In over 2 years of owning the BE I've not had this much inconsistency. Once dialled in its generally very close from shot to shot but then I don't run it back to back for more than 2. How are you storing your beans? It seems like they could be your problem if there's such difference on the same settings. Or there are clumps and you're tamping down on that giving an inconsistent bed. Top will always look nice due to distribution and tamping. I saw a tip about wiggling and jiggling the PF while grinding and have always done so to help distribution into the basket before any prep.
> 
> The main problem here is you have no consistent reference for the grind, to then adjust other things, you still jump around a lot. I'd get some fresher beans, start around 7 and leave grind exactly the same until you can rule out everything else. Once weight and prep are consistent, you then go to grind.
> 
> If you're really unhappy then return or exchange to rule out a machine issue.


 Hey 👋

Thank you! My beans are stored in the sealed bag where they came, in my dispenser, which is dark and dry. Before I leven and tamp I shake the porta filter to make sure the beans are more evenly distributed.

I'm trying to keep to the same grind level, but what would you do if the machine suddenly shocked with the same settings you were seeing extractions working? When I moved to 10 I even took 2 shots, just to make sure it wasn't an outlier.

I can try to ask for a replacement from amazon, just to rule out any problem with the machine, yes.

EDIT

i can replace the machine with the pro version for +80€, does it worth it?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tonydastrevaa said:


> i can replace the machine with the pro version for +80€, does it worth it?


 No. We don't know yet what the problem is, so changing machine has no guarantee of fixing it.

Why is the Razor tool in your photo? You have a leveller and a tamper, you are weighing the doses, there is no need for the Razor. You don't need to tamp with a lot of force.

It would seem 8 & 10 are too fine. 14 is too coarse for a 1:2 shot (but might be OK for a longer weaker brew ratio).


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

MWJB said:


> No. We don't know yet what the problem is, so changing machine has no guarantee of fixing it.
> 
> Why is the Razor tool in your photo? You have a leveller and a tamper, you are weighing the doses, there is no need for the Razor. You don't need to tamp with a lot of force.
> 
> It would seem 8 & 10 are too fine. 14 is too coarse for a 1:2 shot (but might be OK for a longer weaker brew ratio).


 Razor is there but I've not been using it a for a long time.

The whole set:



Bean Weight

Grind

Time

Weight

Ratio

Date

Notes

18.2

7

36.7

29.7

1.631868132

25/01/2021 

Extraction after using machine to extract other coffee at grind 10;
Aiming yeld to less than 1:2;
Result: more acid than previous but more balanced

18.3

7

62

30.2

1.650273224

25/01/2021 

Result: Watery, almost no acidity

17.9

8

39

36.9

2.061452514

27/01/2021 

Purged 10grm of coffee at this grind size before;
Result: balanced, missing flavour

18.4

8

51

36.4

1.97826087

27/01/2021 

Result: watery

18.2

8

62

8.3

0.456043956

27/01/2021 

couldn't extract

18.1

10

61

4.1

0.226519337

27/01/2021 0

couldn't extract

18.2

10

62

2.9

0.1593406593

27/01/2021 

couldn't extract

18.3

14

20

36.2

1.978142077

27/01/2021 




Clearly the fastest extractions are the outliers, but how are they explained? Could it be the grinder that retains lots of coffee that can affect more than the next extraction?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tonydastrevaa said:


> Clearly the fastest extractions are the outliers, but how are they explained? Could it be the grinder that retains lots of coffee that can affect more than the next extraction?


 I'm not familiar with the grinder, why aren't you just dosing & grinding what you need?

I'm not understanding the use of the word "balanced" here.

"more acid" would suggest imbalance?

"missing" flavour would suggest weak & poor extraction?

I think it very unlikely you are extracting normally at 1:1.65.

If you are too fine, the puck could be fracturing, or water forcing its way around the edges on the fast shots. Conversely, if you were too coarse, I don't see a mechanism for why a shot would take a minute.

Try 18.0g in 72g out at 13 grind, it will be on the weaker side, but let's see what happens (trying to force an error on the coarser side).


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

MWJB said:


> I'm not familiar with the grinder, why aren't you just dosing & grinding what you need?
> 
> I'm not understanding the use of the word "balanced" here.
> 
> ...


 I am dosing and grinding only what I need, but this grinder has retentiton. For eg one time I added 18.2gr in and got 18.7 out (I've removed the excess afterwards).

Balanced it means that acidity was ok - even though it was higher than the previous shot - and I got more tasting notes and it was not watery.

I'll try that, what do you expect to see as outcome? I'll have to wait few days as I've lost palate and smell due to covid 🤦‍♂️


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tonydastrevaa said:


> I'll try that, what do you expect to see as outcome? I'll have to wait few days as I've lost palate and smell due to covid 🤦‍♂️


 Sorry to hear that, but how will you assess the situation before your window of opportunity closes for returning the machine?

I expect to see a shot in a more normal time (over 20s & under 50-60s).

+/-0.5g is generally considered "zero retention", 18.2g in, 18.7g out is not a lot of variation in dose consistency.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

I'm hoping to get it back before, let's see 

At https://learninglatte.com/ the person mentions ~3.5grams of coffee get stuck and older coffee goes out instead.



> After dialling in a bean, during daily use, if I put 18.5g of beans into the grinder, I typically get 18.5g of ground coffee out ... +/- 0.2g. During the grinding process, you're pushing out some of the ground coffee stuck in the grinder, and replacing it with fresh coffee. In other words, out of that 18.5g of fresh beans, you might be getting 15g of freshly ground coffee, plus 3.5g of coffee from the previous grind, with 3.5g of freshly ground coffee now being stuck in the gaps. I use my machine every day, and don't notice any effect on taste of this, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. This might be different if you only use your machine once a week though.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

MWJB said:


> Sorry to hear that, but how will you assess the situation before your window of opportunity closes for returning the machine?
> 
> I expect to see a shot in a more normal time (over 20s & under 50-60s).
> 
> +/-0.5g is generally considered "zero retention", 18.2g in, 18.7g out is not a lot of variation in dose consistency.


 I recovered my taste and smell and took today the shot as suggested.

For 18.1 grams, with grinder on 13, I've extracted 74.3 grams in 34s. I expect this time to increase in the next extraction as some coffee was still from the grinder in the 14 position.

The coffee was "ok", it was so diluted that it had no acidity but it wasn't neither sour or bitter. I couldn't identity any tasting notes, only a small after taste. It resembled more or less with the moka pot coffees we do here it "regular" beans.

Nevertheless I'm not sure if I'll ever lose the nausea that now I feel when drinking coffee too many bad coffees damaged my senses 😓

When I was a kid happened the same with chocolate it took me 20 years to eat chocolate again  😓


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tonydastrevaa said:


> I recovered my taste and smell and took today the shot as suggested.
> 
> For 18.1 grams, with grinder on 13, I've extracted 74.3 grams in 34s. I expect this time to increase in the next extraction as some coffee was still from the grinder in the 14 position.
> 
> ...


 Why would it be bitter?

You said you only see 0.5g of leftover coffee, from one dose to the next? Where would enough old grounds to screw up your shots come from?

1:4 probably is around moka pot strength. This is still about 3x stronger than filter coffee, which still has taste.

OK, so now change nothing else, what do you get at 54g out?

Make less cups of coffee. Don't get into a frenzy & overdose.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

MWJB said:


> Why would it be bitter?
> 
> You said you only see 0.5g of leftover coffee, from one dose to the next? Where would enough old grounds to screw up your shots come from?
> 
> ...


 Hi!

Regarding bitterness: I just commented on how was the extraction, I was not expecting any specific outcome from the coffee in regards to sourness/bitterness 

Regarding coffee retention, as mentioned here: https://learninglatte.com/#grinder-retention the grind retains ~3.5 grams of grinded coffee. So picking up my example above, since I've done an extraction with the grinder at 14, when moving the grinder to 13 for the next extraction it's expectable that ~3.5 grams of coffee that goes into the porta filter are from the previous grind that were grinded at 14 and not at 13.

If that's not it, there must be something that when the grinder position is moved is not instantly affected as from my previous extractions I could see that the extraction time changes after the first extraction on a new setting. Today's extractions also match that theory.

So, I've made 2 extractions today, without changing anything, grinder at 13, using ~18 grams of grinded coffee and aiming for 54g out.

*First extraction* from *17.9 grams* of grinded coffee took *33s* to extract *55.2 grams*

*Second extraction* from *18.1 grams* of grinded coffee took *31s* to extract *54.5 grams*

Both coffees were more intense and I could sense some acidity. Regarding flavour, since both coffees were extracted after a meal (lunch & dinner) that can impact my perception, but first coffee had more evident notes.

As I only have enough beans for one more extraction I was thinking to keep same parameters again just to confirm that I can extract 3 coffees with same parameters within the same time range.

What do you think @MWJB?

Thank you!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tonydastrevaa said:


> As I only have enough beans for one more extraction I was thinking to keep same parameters again just to confirm that I can extract 3 coffees with same parameters within the same time range.
> 
> What do you think @MWJB?


 If you think that you're making progress in repeatability & you are finding the shots intense enough to enjoy, I'd do the same again for the last cup of the bag...have a rest, enjoy the scenery 

Then when you crack open the new bag you can get back into tweaking things, without a different coffee possibly upsetting timings.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

MWJB said:


> If you think that you're making progress in repeatability & you are finding the shots intense enough to enjoy, I'd do the same again for the last cup of the bag...have a rest, enjoy the scenery 🙂
> 
> Then when you crack open the new bag you can get back into tweaking things, without a different coffee possibly upsetting timings.


 That's what I did 

The last extraction was again of 18.1 grams (I had to add 2 grams from the next bag to reach 18 grams) in to 54.1 grams out in 31.5 seconds. I think that I finally was able to stabilize a coffee 🎉

I bought 1Kg of fresh new beans again from Brazil, with a bigger bag I'll have more time to test things that I will start cracking tomorrow.

https://olisipo.coffee/product/fazenda-salto/

From the tasting notes what should I expect? I think something sweet with some bitterness from the dark chocolate? 🤔


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tonydastrevaa said:


> From the tasting notes what should I expect? I think something sweet with some bitterness from the dark chocolate? 🤔


 I almost never buy Brazilian coffee, but sounds like some acidity from the toffee & raisin, I wouldn't expect the bitterness to be dominating, or unpleasant (like smoke/over-extraction).

Brazils definitely are less soluble than a lot of other regions, so pull to the longest ratio you can enjoy.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

MWJB said:


> I almost never buy Brazilian coffee, but sounds like some acidity from the toffee & raisin, I wouldn't expect the bitterness to be dominating, or unpleasant (like smoke/over-extraction).
> 
> Brazils definitely are less soluble than a lot of other regions, so pull to the longest ratio you can enjoy.


 Good to know! I'll start experimenting and report back  Thank you!


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

Hi 👋

Reporting back my journey with this Brazilian coffee from Sul de Minas.

It is completely different coffee from the previous Brazilian one, probably the first one is "better" according to 3rd wave specialists as it has more acidity and clarity, but I've been enjoying the latter more. I feel that from someone entering this new genre of coffee styles it is easier to start with less acidity and more chocolat like flavours. Again, personal opinion, might not be consensual.

So, I started were I ended the last Brazilian one, grind at 13 and a 1:3 ratio and always using manual mode and stopping pre infusion when the coffee starts to drip. I'd say that I had the lucky to "nail it" at the first time.

I pulled a bunch of shots that were all around 30s, and I liked them, almost no acidity, a good "chocolaty" bitterness and sometimes I could really feel the raisin flavor.

Then I decided to experiment a little bit as I'd like to try to bring a little more of body and intensity to the flavours, and, I messed up  . I did the stupid error of changing 2 variables at same time, grind and ratio.

So, I changed grinder to 12 and decided to try 1:2.5 ratio. Shots were awful - for me - too strong, a dry and uncomfortable mouth aftertaste (too bitter?) that I had to drink a lot of water after I finished the coffee. I experimented one last shot at 1:3, which was drinkable but still too "strong" (?) for me.

Given that, I went back to the grinder at 13, took a 1:3 shot to make sure that I was back on track and then decided to change the ratio to 1:2, which was the move I should've done in the first place. This was for me the sweet spot, I got more of the good flavours, a little touch of acidity, a good body and a good aftertaste.

All shots with these settings are good, but I pulled 2 that I really really enjoyed more than the others (one only took 17 seg and the other one 28seg), not sure why 🤔. Overall the shots are taking same time, but sometimes I have this outliers that I don't know why they happen, I probably need to improve consistency, any idea where?

Yesterday I had some visits so I pulled 4 shots and first two were in the 26s range and the last two on 22s, what could be the cause? BTW, I took 3 dummy shots before the first one.

I just wanted to add that now I'm starting to dislike the coffees I drank when I go out to eat - I drink my coffee after meals. Too arsh, intense on burned cereals, argh 🤢.

The extraction data:



*Bean Weight*

*Grind*

*Time*

*Weight*

*Ratio*

*Date*

*Notes*

18.1

13

33

53.8

2.972375691

04/02/2021 10:00:00



18.1

13

27

54.6

3.016574586

04/02/2021 14:00:00



18.2

13

30.5

54.1

2.972527473

05/02/2021 10:00:00



18.1

13

31

55.1

3.044198895

06/02/2021 10:00:00



18.3

13

30.5

53.3

2.912568306

07/02/2021 10:00:00



18

12

45.4

43.1

2.394444444

07/02/2021 14:00:00



18

12

35.2

43.2

2.4

07/02/2021 21:00:00



18.1

12

60

44.1

2.436464088

08/02/2021 10:00:00



18.4

12

34.3

43.4

2.358695652

08/02/2021 10:00:00



18

12

40

54.2

3.011111111

08/02/2021 14:00:00



18.3

13

37

54.8

2.994535519

09/02/2021 10:00:00



18.3

13

36

70

3.825136612

09/02/2021 21:00:00



18.5

13

26.5

35.3

1.908108108

10/02/2021 10:00:00



18

13

17

35.5

1.972222222

10/02/2021 14:00:00

GOLD

18.4

13

26.5

36.1

1.961956522

11/02/2021 10:00:00



18.4

13

23

37

2.010869565

11/02/2021 10:00:00



18.1

13

25.5

36

1.988950276

11/02/2021 14:00:00



18.3

13

29

36.5

1.994535519

12/02/2021 10:00:00



18.1

13

26.3

36.3

2.005524862

12/02/2021 21:00:00



18.2

13

27.4

35.7

1.961538462

12/02/2021 21:00:00



18.1

 13

22.3

36.7

2.027624309

12/02/2021 21:00:00



18.3

13

22.5

37.2

2.032786885

12/02/2021 21:00:00



18.1

13

30.5

36.2

2

13/02/2021 10:00:00



18.3

13

28

36.9

2.016393443

13/02/2021 21:00:00

GOLD


Cheers!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Your shots are good at setting 13 and 1:2?

If so, and they are +/-3s, that's within normal parameters.

If not, what is the issue, as only 2 shots have any kind of subjective note/score?

Next time feed back in smaller batches (say 3 shots all with feedback on taste score), this is too much to make sense of.


----------



## Tonydastrevaa (Jan 4, 2022)

MWJB said:


> Your shots are good at setting 13 and 1:2?
> 
> If so, and they are +/-3s, that's within normal parameters.
> 
> ...


 Yes they are good. The ones I noted out were the best inside the "good".

the range goes from 17 to 30.5, but the majority looks like it's inside that +-3s range.


----------

