# home setup that meets my needs?



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I have quite a specific requirement and after a ton of reading I would still like to get some advice on a suitable grinder and machine combo for this:

General scenario:

Home espresso setup to enable me to make a really good coffee and for the kit to accommodate my growing expertise. I'm currently a novice. Mixture of mainly americano, cappuccino and latte with the odd long espresso (tiny bit of milk) is our usual drinks. Will nearly always be with the best DECAF beans I can find e.g. Rave though some caf for guests etc.

Hard requirements:


Must fit (machine and grinder) under cabinets on our standard kitchen work top. approx. 44cm gap between worktop and bottom of eye-level cabinets. Cabinets not as deep as worktop in usual UK kitchen format - about half depth it looks. Will go in left hand corner with plenty of space to the right.

£1500 max for NEW machine and NEW grinder in total. I don't want to buy used. Would love to spend nearer £1k in total if possible.

Must be dual boiler

Must be separate grinder

If not plumbed in (see softer requirements) then must be able to load up with water from the front easily - i.e. not having to move the machine

Must suit use cases below well, usability and repeatability important to me

Easy cleaning and maintenance important - see use cases

Auto turn on or quick warm up important - see use cases


Softer requirements:


Would like it to look nice, will be my pride and joy ;-) though still looking for function over style if can't have both

I already have water plumbed in ready for this so would really like to use this if possible and if people think my use cases would really make that necessary. It's not critical though and if a non plumbed machine with easy, front loading water will meet my needs then fine

Would like machine to have enough of a community to ask questions, read, learn etc

Descaling reasonably easy

Cleaning easy, ideally I'll do quickly each work day morning and end of weekend

Will be 95% used with high quality DECAF beans so grinder must suit this and make the best it can

A quieter machine would be great as will be making drinks when 3 young kids in bed though not a deal breaker


Use Cases:


Working day - want to be able to make my wife a fine americano as quickly as possible as I have little time before I rush off to the office. So it's start-up, one cup use then shut down again until the evening or the next morning. I'll also want to grind enough coffee for a couple of aeropress drinks I'll have at work - I'll want to reasonably easily get the grinds in to a container and take to the office.

I will enjoy learning and tweeking etc though on a working day especially I don't think I'll want to be using a manual timer and/or scales if possible. Maybe timer only.

Weekend - will be used quite a lot throughout both days including lattes etc.

Would like my wife to be able to make a drink if she ever feels like giving it the necessary attention. Who knows if she'll be up for this though would like it to be possible.


I would really appreciate any advice, especially specific kit from people with similar requirements 

Cheers

Kenny


----------



## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

I think your stumbling block will be 1 Filling from the front and 2 Quick latte in the morning 3 New duel boiler for that price range

If you are looking for a quick machine start up then you are looking at a smaller duel boiler - the Sage duel boiler £1100 plus a Eureka Mignon £279 plus scales , tamper, jug etc

Personally - the sage is not a looker for me - just my taste - If I was spending over a grand I would head over to Bella Barista for a day out and look in the flesh at the machines available - I will bet your budget goes up to £2,500 if you do.

Go on the bella site and use the filters to select duel boiler - the good looking machines start at £1300 up

I would not be put off by second hand - you could get a much better machine for your money and a grinder - these are professional machines and all are repairable if an issue develops - If you buy off the forum then they should have been looked after.

A final left field choice - and probably only because ive just got one would be to look at La Pavoni europicolo - it will develop your skills no end for £400 and partner it with a proper grinder such as an Eureka e65 or a supper jolly on demand.

Keep us posted about your thoughts lots here will assist - and have better knowledge than me


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks Jimbo. If not the Sage DB then perhaps something I can plumb in?


----------



## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

kennyboy993 said:


> Thanks Jimbo. If not the Sage DB then perhaps something I can plumb in?


Hi - ive just updated my answer above - after thinking some more -

I think the plumbed in bit is tricky at your price point - I would look at single boiler HX machine - you can get a Rocket, expobar with pre infusion from the lever for just over a grand.


----------



## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

If it has to be plumb in then I would start here https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/expobar-leva-dual-boiler-coffee-machine-reservoir-plumb-in.html

but pony up some more dough for an E65

Your problem is that you wont get a quick heat up in the AM unless you add wall socket timers - to turn on 20mins before hand.

and wait for more advice - these machines are way out of my experience range - others will add their thoughts through the day


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Great insight Jim, your responses are starting to shape things for me.

ha ha you're right about wanting to spend £2,500 if I saw it all in front of me! However I can't do that, no way - wife would kill me. Maybe £1,700 at a pinch.

I really want new, I'm one of those people.

I definitely going to spend a day at Bella though - I'll give them a ring today.

That expobar looks great, any owners on here can vouch if it will get anywhere near my requirements? especially worktop height.

I'm happy to get wall socket timer if people think that's an elegant solution? does it not introduce inconveniences elsewhere e.g. turning off and on manually?

I didn't want to to say anything because I didn't want this to become a thread about the pros and cons of a specific machine though I really like the Rocket e58 after reading about it - including the fact that as a company they offer accessories, a sense of community etc. Then again that would have to be second hand wouldn't it - I think if I saw one that looked like new I might go for it.

Very happy to look elsewhere though - as I say it's about meeting requirements - e.g. sage, expobar, profitec


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

BTW what's an E65?


----------



## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

kennyboy993 said:


> BTW what's an E65?


I meant a 65E - perfect for a Rocket - My brother in Law got that set up and it works great.

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/eureka-zenith-65e-grinder.html


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks Jim - could u explain why you'd recommend that over a Mignon for my needs?


----------



## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

kennyboy993 said:


> Thanks Jim - could u explain why you'd recommend that over a Mignon for my needs?


Burr size and quality of grind, its often said on here that the budget should be 50/50 as the grinder is as important as the machine.

I would look at super jolly too, they roll on forever but the E65 wins on looks and ease of cleaning.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I've just ordered a Mignon from bella barista - I started getting excited about the higher end gear Jim was talking about but realised this can so easily get out of hand. I'm happy and looking forward to it arriving and just using it with my Aeropress until I can afford the dual boiler machine.

Bella Barista recommended r58 - which is above budget though seems to have a great reputation.

I'm really interested in how a machine might meet my needs though - hoping some owners of dual boilers machines that can be plumbed in at under £1,500 may be able to advise


----------



## scottomus (Aug 13, 2014)

Sorry if i didn't read fully but are you

considering second hand ? Will have a mazzer major for sale soon


----------



## scottomus (Aug 13, 2014)

Nvm just read last post lol


----------



## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

The Sage DB fits the bill for your machine to a tee. It's fillable from the front, I have it under a cabinet and do this. It has a built in timer. It heats up very quickly and also has a built in timer to turn it on in the morning, so you can set it to come on of a morning about 10 / 15 minutes before you need it and it'll be good to go. It's all personal on looks, I like the fact it looks like a modern appliance and it fits in well with my kitchen - I've had several other machines and this is easily my favourite.

Oh and it steams milk very well indeed


----------



## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

I should add that I have the sage *mostly* under a cabinet. To fill it it's on the top and front so cannot be completely covered by cabinet.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks buddy - exactly the sort of info from owners I'm after.

If the sage could be plumbed in I'd probably go for it now. Seems to meet my needs well.

Hoping someone with a rocket etc can tell me their auto on setup with timer plug and how convenient and workable it is


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Sage still in the short list for me though


----------



## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

I think their is a thread about wemo plugs (could be wrong name, my memory is shocking) on here that people were using to start their machines.


----------



## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

Yeh its a Wemo plug. I use one, can be set to come on or off at set times or can be switched on through phone from anywhere (well I'm sure within reason)


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Perfect, thanks guys. With the wemo and the fact I can plumb in - I'm leaning more towards a expobar, rocket or profitec db


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Must get the machine heights now as 43cm max may be an issue too


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

kennyboy993 said:


> Must get the machine heights now as 43cm max may be an issue too


You seem to have a very firm requirement to have the machine plumbed in, why?


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

As I have plumbing all ready and where I'm placing the machine I won't be able to fill top loading machines without moving them out all the time. Too much hassle I'm assuming. Perhaps I shouldn't be so worried?


----------



## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

many machines have a 1 1/2 ltr or more reservoir - so pulling 30mls a coffee makes pulling out to refill not a daily thing - having said that you want fresh water whenever possible in my book - mind you if its ashbeck its probably sitting in a bottle for months.


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

kennyboy993 said:


> Perfect, thanks guys. With the wemo and the fact I can plumb in - I'm leaning more towards a expobar, rocket or profitec db


I'm guessing it's a Profitec 300 you're looking at... only because it's closer to your stated price limit. I

It's not of any specific help to you (i.e. height constraints or ability to plumb in or any other particular criteria you've offered) BUT having bought an ECM machine from BellaBarista in recent months and knowing the close relationship between ECM and Profitec, my inclination would be to lean towards Profitec. I realize this is a generalization but the ECM machine is working out really well for me. I moved up from an Oscar and, not being as well versed as others on this site, wasn't sure what to expect but the build quality and ease of use and warm up time have all been enccouraging. So much so that I would probably only stick to this make (ECM/Profitec) as and when a replacement became necessary.

I've bought a couple of different baskets and now stick to the VST and use around 16 grams in it. Other than that it is bog standard (except I use a remote switch to turn it on from the bedroom) and have now got used to the machine.....although it took a while to get the grind/tamp/timing etc. all sorted.

I have to be honest and say that the lady at BellaBarista (the owner - I won't mention names) was very much in favour of my not going for a double boiler and sticking to an HX machine. She said less working parts and less to go wrong with no particular advantage over a single boiler HX. At the time I could easily have gone either way but admit to simply following her advice. She did advise I went for the cheaper of the two options saying that the more expensive one was essentially the same as mine but was cheaper due to the case construction. With the benefit of hindsight I believe she was correct and haven't regretted going for an HX machine rather than a DB.

Others will no doubt agree and/or disagree and people have discussed DB vs HX ever since they were available to buy.... so I have nothing much further to add.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Interesting insight re hx maybe that's all I need then.

Not looked at any specific profitecs.

The more I read and view on YouTube the more I seem to be narrowing down to a expobar or an r58. Though yes I've accepted i need to increase my budget.

I can't seem to find an expobar leva with a rotary pump on Bella barista so can't compare the price to the r58.

The vibration expobar looks great value for money though I'm a little concerned about the noise from the couple of videos I've seen.

I should make the visit to Bella barista as was suggested


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

I readily admit to not having hands on experience with anything other than the current ECM, the previous Oscar and a Gaggia before that. However I did do an awful lot of reading reports, reviews prior to the purchase of each respective machine.

The upshot of it all resulted in the Gaggia Classic because at that time it was well regarded and the price seemed reasonable. I coupled it with a Rancilio Rocky for much the same reasons... it was all the rage at the time. Both machines served me faultlessly.

Move on to the Oscar and it, too, was well regarded having done a lot of research online at that particular time and was readily available (from a firm in Italy) and the spares would have been equally readily available should I have needed them (apart from routine items I didn't need any). It was an HX machine that heated up in an instant and served me faultlessly for six years before I sold it.

What I'm saying is I read a lot and took the advice/general consensus that was available from several sources and that seemed logical and sensible at the time.

Bringing the matter to date, I was tempted to get another Oscar from the same firm in Italy. The fella there has a fabulous reputation. The firm is Elektros http://www.elektros.it/gb/en/ and the gentleman is Gianni. See their website, they do several other makes. I came close to getting the updated Oscar from Gianni.... it would have been a good bit cheaper than the ECM. If money is tight then check your options there.

And with specific regard to the ECM (same firm as Profitec), I gained the impression... from several different sources ... that of all the readily available makes the ECM/Profitec had the edge when it came to quality of components and construction. Expobar for example is cheaper. But, over the course of time I sensed that you get what you pay for and the cheaper machines were cheaper for a reason. This will undoubtedly make me unpopular with some here. But I can live with that. I only post here with these thought because you have clearly put a lot of time into trying to decide what to do and have done so with accuracy and eloquence - and having been there myself - the least I can do is throw a few ideas your way.

Take it all with a pinch of salt by all means as I'm not an expert and don't have the background and hands on experience with different makes and models that others have.

But the people here did advise and assist when I asked questions and most approved of my ultimate course of action and I'm grateful for their help... and in your case you're trying to stick to a budget as well as trying to get the best available for your money. I'm just saying if you CAN stretch to the best value/performance/quality compromise then I know what I would do... but I've also said look at something like the Oscar as it's so much less to lay out AND my experience was that it was well made and mine lasted well for six years in my ownership and I sold it on (on this site) and to the best of knowledge is still up and running. And furthermore, maybe - just maybe - you don't NEED a double boiler if a double boiler is going to cost more than an equivalent HX and if either will serve your needs well enough?


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks for this Stan, that's really helpful.

I see your point. I'm beginning to see my specification of dual boiler was probably more due to ignorance than anything else.

I have started to look at some of the more expensive hx machines - look great


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

kennyboy993 said:


> As I have plumbing all ready and where I'm placing the machine I won't be able to fill top loading machines without moving them out all the time. Too much hassle I'm assuming. Perhaps I shouldn't be so worried?


As you shouldn't really be using the machine as a kettle, the water requirements for espresso and milk steaming are not great, so you won't be filling all the time (depending on how many coffees you make in a day). Tank fill allows you to tightly control water quality/type. If moving the machine is a real problem, furniture felts/glide pads stuck to the bottom of the feet will allow you to move the machine with 1 finger if need be. Machines with a plumb in option usually have a rotary pump nowadays, so this increases cost....but they are quieter. Vibe pumps can be noisier in some machines than others, so it's a good idea to see some machines at Bella Barista.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks Dave - booking my bb visit tomorrow, getting very excited.

Quietness of rotary would be big benefit to me I think so might stump up the extra cash.

Interesting point u make about gliders though - would that cause challenges with the machine moving when you're using it e.g. Fixing the ports filter in place?


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Porta filter - damn auto correct


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

If you are going to go a bit upmarket then most of your choices will include the facility to plumb in, I'd have thought? And as you're geared up for plumbing it in then maybe it all makes sense.

So, to summarise, you're thinking you might go for a nicer machine and can plumb it in and you're not absolutely set on a double boiler? On that basis I'd have thought your options were plentiful. I still maintain my position regarding what make I would go for... but maybe it'll become clear when you visit BB.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Yeah good summary Stan. Thanks to help on here I'd say my requirements are now (bearing in mind just ordered mignon):

Fit under 43cm worktop

Plumbed in

Hx or db

E61 and pid

Rotary

£1700 max for machine only

I can see quite a few options though still so hard - as u say bb visit could be answer to rest of uncertainty


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

I'd go along with your list.... but a certain lady at a certain supplier... where you'll be visiting soon... did say, when advising yours truly, that of all those items you've listed the only one she didn't consider essential was the PID. She pointed me to the machine that I bought (see my "signature" below) and I went along with it. It has the facility to tank fill or plumb at with the touch of a switch, it has a quiet rotary pump, it has the E61 group-head, it fits under the cupboard with 25mm to spare, it is beautifully made and gets rave reviews in most quarters, it warms up in 15 minutes...and almost finally, my Mrs. likes the look of it. The latter is neither here nor there but if it pleases her then so much the better. And finally she rather likes the stuff that it produces (which is something that none of us has actually mentioned so far)









For me, the basics facts of the matter are... I turn it on and wait for it to warm up. I have sorted out what grind setting is right and therefore that bit is sorted. As it happens I weigh the coffee out of the grinder - using a cheap scale from Ebay.... it drops into a plastic container which sits on the scale, not straight into the portafilter. I have the milk ready in a cold jug. I stick the coffee into the portafilter and tamp (not too hard) and then weigh the output from the grouphead (after having done quick flush, of course) having aimed for around 30 seconds. If you want two cappuccinos then repeat the process and you can steam the miolk for both cappuccinos in one go.

After making the drink I religiously clean everything... clean water backflush, spray the underside of the group-head with clean water from a spray bottle.... etc etc. I use a ridgeless basket so that just slides out enabling you to clean it inside and out.

It all takes a while to get a routine...and it WILL go wrong during the early days... but eventually you'll get into a routine and Bob's your neighbour's sister in law.


----------



## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Just to throw the cat among the pigeons....

Your spending power puts you in the realms of a secondhand Londinium L1 Lever machine

With the latest version (LONDINIUM R) costing £1900 + vat, there may be one or two coming on the market soon.... Hard to tell

Thought you might like to include this one in your reading material.


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

grumpydaddy said:


> Just to throw the cat among the pigeons....
> 
> Your spending power puts you in the realms of a secondhand Londinium L1 Lever machine
> 
> ...


Don't think it'll fit under his cupboard though.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Sh*t Stan I've just looked your machine up in bb - looks amazing. Really like the way they've described it.

Reminded me how much quality is important to me - I want to get a sense of it being highly engineered with high quality components. Not read much about these machines on here though - it's all rocket here, expobar there..... or maybe that's just the threads I've been visiting.

Looked at the spec - great though did notice uninsulated boiler - that been an issue?

Grumpy daddy - your L1 suggestion caused me to recoil in 'out of my depth' anxiety ha ha. Though enjoyed it. True I need it for under worktop plus I assume at that level (just ignoring my inexperience for a moment) the mignon would be quite a weak link anyway and I'm fixed on that now


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

I'm 99% sure that they now insulate it. I agree the earlier review on BB did say it wasn't.

Point taken re. Expobar, Rocket etc... but over time I've seen plenty positive references to ECM's quality. There's plenty history to read about - eg. they went broke and were taken over. There's some debate over just how much of the machine is German and how much is Italian. I'm happy to know that there's some German input even if it isn't 100%. We all know that the Italians are noted for style and the Germans for functionality and efficiency. I preferred the latter to the former if given a choice and clearly with ECM there's a bit of both. I sometimes see or hear the car analogy that speaks of Alfa Romeo - that is to say they look beautiful but aren't quite as reliable as... well I leave that to someone else to fill in the blank. Obviously it used to be Volkswagen, but after the events of recent months none of us are quite so sure about that.

Regrettably they went up by £50 a few months ago... all to do with the strength of the pound, I'm told. Nothing anyone can do about that.

Speaking from personal experience, I found the staff at BB to be excellent. Mine was delivered and the packaging was superb. You might be able to collect, so that will save you a few shillings. They set each machine up on the bench. They would also take you through the operation of the machine when you collect.

If you do go down that route there are one or two items I bought from them which I find help a lot... but I won't go there at the moment. My grinder came from there too and you might find it takes a while for everything to settle in. But now, after a couple of months I'm very familiar with what I need to do to get a drink that suits us.

As a matter of interest you ought to go to the Home Barista website. It's US based and is populated by contributors who take the whole coffee thing even more ..... I hesitate to say "seriously" but they certainly takes things to an even more advanced level. It is incredible, amazing, bewildering.... but there are things to learn there. The video clips are good. (there's a series of videos which include the ECM). You might not favour the Home Barista site (I don't) but it's well worth a look. But be warned, it is comprehensive in the extreme and you could be there for hours and hours. (I speak from experience).


----------



## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

After a recent visit to BB I can confirm that I am currently hankering after an ECM Synchronika - wow what a machine. The build quality on all of the ECM machines is fantastic and thats saying something when they are all sat side by side with Izzo, Rocket, Profitec etc.

The profitec is also a lovely set of machines (made by/along side ECM) but the ECM just seem to pip it to the post to me.

Surely this ECM is the one?: https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/heidelberg-ecm-technika-iv-profi-wt-wc-expresso-machine-stainless-steel.html

Or if you can stretch a little further, this PID Profitec 700 Dual Boiler? https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/profitec-700-dual-boiler.html

I do love the joysticks on the ECM though...


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

kennyboy993 said:


> Thanks Dave - booking my bb visit tomorrow, getting very excited.
> 
> Quietness of rotary would be big benefit to me I think so might stump up the extra cash.
> 
> Interesting point u make about gliders though - would that cause challenges with the machine moving when you're using it e.g. Fixing the ports filter in place?


Not unless you are very heavy handed, with a correctly sized gasket, the portafilter only needs to be lightly locked in to place...with a tight fitting gasket (e.g. ones that's too thick) you have to pull the bejesus out of it to make sure it won't come out under pressure. I use just light finger pressure to lock all of mine in.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Stan - I understand the sentiment, I personally like to buy the 'vw' of anything if it exists..... engineering integrity, fit for purpose and understated class.

Erm I tend to avoid thinking about emissions scandal :-(

Home barista is going to get a new silent lurker from tomorrow


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Itguy thanks - that technika looks to meet all my requirements and it looks beautifully made. Watched some vids and it looks amazing - I need to read stuff on here from owners and see what non insulated boiler means to ownership proposition

Profitec 700 lovely though too tall by the looks of it unless any owners can say they've fit it under standard U.K. 43cm counter top. Even more reading for me. Enjoying it


----------



## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

My Izzo Alex has a non-insulated boiler and it just heats up the top a bit more than others and the heating element just cycles on and off a bit more often. Mine is on for 7 seconds then off for 1min 15 secs. Someone else who insulated their machine (same as mine) got this down to 10 seconds every 2 minutes.


----------



## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

The general wisdom seems to be for espresso to get a "commercial-grade" grinder, as the grinder is more important than the machine. You can get something basic like Sage Duo Temp and a commercial grade grinder and get good results with it.

If you want to switch between Aeropress / Espresso settings, then you'd also want something that is not stepless.


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

If you read this article it mentions that more recent versions do have the insulated boiler plus the no burn steam wand and some retaining rails on the top. The review in question goes into extreme detail concerning flushing whereas I simply flush until the steamy "whooshing" subsides and just carry on from there.http://www.home-barista.com/reviews/ecm-technika-iv-profi-review-t28146.html

I have to say that even if I leave the machine on for an extended period the cups on top don't get particularly hot... just warm really. This, to me, confirms there isn't a vast amount of heat escaping. If they say the boiler is insulated then I'm happy with that - I'm not too inclined to remove the case to confirm. I expect time will come when I do have to expose the innards but I'll wait until then.

I'd not owned a machine with the "joy stick" lever type steam and water controls but have to say I much prefer them to the rotary knobs on my previous machines. Ditto the anti burn steam wand is much easier to clean than previous ones. The pump is so much quieter, the finish is superb... I can't say enough about it.

I'm repeating myself now but if I were to have to buy again I would have the exact same machine i.e. this :- https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/ecm-mechanika-iv-profi-wc-wt-stainless-steel.html


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Partisan - thank you, great tip stepless grinder. Mignon arrives today I think it should leave it unopened and speak to bb when I book appointment.

Stan since your post I've read much more about the ecm models and that one I would say must be top of the list in terms of meeting requirements- thanks

I feel well informed for the visit now, great forum this thanks everyone


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Partisan - thank you, great tip stepless grinder. Mignon arrives today I think it should leave it unopened and speak to bb when I book appointment.

Stan since your post I've read much more about the ecm models and that one I would say must be top of the list in terms of meeting requirements- thanks

I feel well informed for the visit now, great forum this thanks everyone


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

Excellent. Shall be interested to see how things progress.

I haven't said much about the grinder but there's no shortage of advice to be had.... some of it based on actual fact and other just on personal fancy... and, of course, there's nothing wrong with that.

Ideally we would be able to line them all up at home and use them for a week or so and see which one you prefer.

A couple of people at BB were inclined to point me towards the Eureka Atom (a new model). It happens I had limited space re. the grinder and the Atom would have fitted OK. I'm not restricted on height but in the front to back and sideways measurements (I think the term is "footprint).... and the Eureka 75E did also fit. I read that the size of the burrs is generally thought significant and it transpired that the Eureka 75E fitted the space available and had titanium 75mm burrs as well as dispensing direct from a chute rather than a doser. Despite being steered towards the cheaper Atom I stuck to my guns and got a 75E from BB and am very pleased with it. I don't use the timer facility on it, instead I dispense into a container https://www.creamsupplies.co.uk/tarsons-plastic-measuring-jug-250ml which sits on a cheap Ebay digital scale http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/162014705721?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT and I then use a homemade funnel to tip it into the portafilter (made from the top of a fruit juice bottle). The 75E doesn't clump like the Rancilio Rocky did and seems to do the job without fuss or trouble AND is easy to clean and solidly constructed... it's HEAVY! Additionally the small hopper is just the right size. I have no inclination to even consider "upgrading" either the machine or the grinder and would hope this set up will remain for the foreseeable. I do see others constantly changing their equipment... which is fine, but not cheap. However I'm now guilty of spending your money for you and you might not be too keen on that particular idea 

The company which supplied the container (Cream Supplies) is worth a look for a decent milk foaming jug (Motta or Rhinoware). They have some other related bits and bobs. A nice firm to deal with too.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Ha ha it's a reasonable substitute to prevent spending our own isn't it - I do it with friends and cars!

Had a good chat with someone at BB today who was very helpful. I'm going to keep the mignon as it arrived today and as I don't expect to be changing beans much I'll use a rhinowear hand grinder for the aeropress.

Thanks for the grinder upgrade path though - I now just need to focus on not contracting upgraditus like so many on here.

Going to BB on the 7th so will post back what I end up with


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

Right you are.


----------



## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

kennyboy993 said:


> Ha ha it's a reasonable substitute to prevent spending our own isn't it - I do it with friends and cars!
> 
> Had a good chat with someone at BB today who was very helpful. I'm going to keep the mignon as it arrived today and as I don't expect to be changing beans much I'll use a rhinowear hand grinder for the aeropress.
> 
> ...


Good luck with that. I think it is fair to say that a trip to BB and an attempt to avoid upgraditus are mutually exclusive


----------



## peld (Jul 30, 2014)

bookmark to read this thoroughly - im in a very similar situation and budget. Looking to upgrade Classic + Iberital MC2, budget about £1200. Sage DB the favorite for the machine at the moment.

edit - though I am open to good second hand - the issue is i'm in Edinburgh so a loooong way from most people to do pick ups


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Before this thread began, Sage was my favourite too.


----------



## peld (Jul 30, 2014)

kennyboy993 said:


> Before this thread began, Sage was my favourite too.


reading through the thread and glancing at the machines, my observation is that whilst many are beautiful, high quality machines, for £900 the Sage looks like it has been designed for simple ease of use in the home whilst still be well specced, like the display, the settings, the descale reminders, even such things as a front loading water tank which surprisingly doesnt seem to be a given in some of the Italian designs.

Furthermore (as im in Edinburgh), if im buying new, it would mostly likely be online (although there is a little place near work that does Rocket and Expobar). I can buy a Sage from John Lewis or Lakeland, so there is a bit of comfort that I can just dump it on them if its faulty and not having to worry about postage.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Quick update:

So I'm booked in to Bella Barista tomorrow, far more excited now than any 47 year old should be.

Really need to not spend too much though - some of the machines I've been looking at are so much more than I want to spend. So really looking for a good HX machine rather than a DB I reckon though got my heart set on a rotary so even those look very expensive.

From the advice on here and lots of reading, watching reviews etc I think the ECM looks to be for me, though of course this could all change when I see them in the flesh.

Thing that I'm a little concerned about is the plumbing in now - I hope it's a not a big job. All plumbing ready in the kitchen though previous owner of our house had this connected to a la spaziale s1, I hope this is the same/similar to ECM, rocket, profitec etc.

Naturally will report back tomorrow


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

Whilst using my ECM just now I recalled this thread and was reminded just how quiet the pump on the machine is. It's almost like an electrical hum compared to the rattle of the pumps on my earlier machines.

The machine comes with a long stainless steel hose ready to connect to the machine's underside. Piece of cake. The drip tray should come with a pre-drilled hole and there's a black plastic collection sump to screw on to the case which collects the waste from the hole. (You might want to confirm this at the point of ordering just to confirm the drip tray will come pre-drilled and that the plastic sump is included, I suspect you might need to specify tank or plumbed in now... not sure about that though and could be wrong). There's a switch to click to set tank or mains cold water and a valve to set into the correct position - and that's it.

See my other posts (with photos) that explain that you can easily use 13mm (internal diameter) hose from Ebay. Equally simple. There's a range of elbows and joints for you to choose from. I did observe in the other post/s that the plastic sump works fine but that you could over run it's drainage capacity if you tipped too much water into the tray at once. In normal use it's OK and hasn't caused me an ounce of concern.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Nice one Stan, will have a look.

Yeah that quietness is a big pull for me - as is the build quality.

Interesting what you write about drainage. Mine will be plumbed in for water feed though I won't be plumbing in collection sump to drainage...... that's not so unusual is it I'm hoping?


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

I have a suspicion that connecting to mains cold water and draining the drip tray are kind of ... 'a matching pair'. That is to say they tend to be both done together.

In my other post/s you'll see my machine is immediately next to the sink therefore it was begging to be drained straight into the aforementioned. However, in my case. I haven't troubled to connect it to the mains cold water.... partly because it's so easy to tank fill from a Brita type filter jug (thus adding some extra protection against the effects of untreated water straight from the mains) ... and partly coz I couldn't be arsed (as they say) .. and partly coz I know that by filling it manually there will never be a flood caused by a malfunction of this or that valve. But, to be honest, the latter point doesn't realistically stand up as we all have washing machines and dishwashers permanently connected and they could just as easily flood... so don't take too much notice of that last one.

If you do plumb it in will you need to consider an inline water filter? Most seem to advise one. But that's another can of Lumbricus terrestris.


​


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

ha just looked up Lumbricus terrestris 

ah ok, little concerned now - as where my machine will be placed I will not have access to fill the tank, plus water feed is important to me. Yeah I will getting an inline filter. Previous house owner is helping me with this as he had same setup.

It seems logical though that you can just connect one hose in to the machine as a water source and then just not connect anything to the collection tray - or am I on the wrong track?


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

Yes, quite so, perfectly logical and not on the wrong track. There is absolutely no obligation or precedent to say you must do one or the other. And in your case, where there's a limit on space above the machine and where the basics are in place to enable plumbing it in then it's crying out for it. And if the drainage from the drip tray isn't straight forward due to physical constraints then that is equally sensible. If, however, you look and scratch your head and do find a route that isn't horrendous then I think I would urge you to consider it..... for no other reason than it is so easy just to run a sponge round the inside of the drip tray to clean it after every use without having to mentally check that the water level is OK. It's not a huge capacity drip tray. However, if it can't be done then there's an easy way to save emptying it too often, and that is simply to use a shallow Tupperware type container that fits under the grouphead outlet and stick it underneath when you're flushing the grouphead between shots etc and every time you run any water through the grouphead for any reason. Even though my drip tray is drained I still use the container to catch most of the water that gets run through the grouphead. I ditch any dirty water but any clean water that I flush gets tipped in to an adjacent glass Pyrex jug and then tipped in to the Brita Jug for re-use... something that wouldn't apply in your case as you're going to plumb it in.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I see, makes sense - thanks Stan.

Yeah I can understand now how one compliments the other. I'll have a look at the pics you've posted


----------



## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

You don't have to but if there is the remotest possibility of connecting to the waste it would make things a bunch easier in my view.

I have had it connected in the past but cannot in the current location until I install a macerator on this floor. I really miss this.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Yeah the more I read, the more it seems it might even be more convenient than plumbing water feed for some.....

In my kitchen this 'bank' of cabinets is completely separate to the bank with sink, dishwasher etc on it.

Best I could do is drill a hole in worktop perhaps, and let water drain in to huge container in the cabinet below...... that sort of thing been done?


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

Anything is possible and everything has been done before... some rig up water containers above the machine filled with bottled water and feed the machine via gravity. A container below to catch waste is feasible but you might get fed up with it after a while. And don't do it if you have a bad back. And drilling holes in worktops doesn't always go down well. But lots do it.

Stand back and do some more head scratching. And two heads are better than one... consult further with whoever shares the place to see what they say.

I'm looking to find the photos from previous posts.... will advise when I find them. If not |I'll take some more.


----------



## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Yeah, I reckon that if piping along the wall to the sink is too onerous putting a narrow necked container below could work. I'm thinking narrow neck to make it friendlier to carry without spillage when full.

The plumbers of the forum might argue this but I think you might get away with a small diameter pipe (22mm) if you could extend the waste.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

More good tips, thanks boys.

You're right about consulting with other people in the house. My wife is stilling dreaming up what she gets to even things up when I spend all this cash tomorrow....


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

Here's some stuff from before....

I ordered, and received today, some rubber heater hose (inside diameter 13mm) to connect to the spigot on the black plastic drainage container/sump that came with the drained drip tray kit and I've run that to a right angled pre-formed piece of hose which hangs over the adjacent sink. It drains OK but I noticed that if you empty too much water in to the drip tray too quickly it overflows the black plastic sump.....but that's not an issue as long as you remember not to tip a bucketful into it.

These are the bits from Ebay.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1909871310...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2009633283...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3804506563...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
























Re. Grumps thoughts about drainage. I would say you was perfectly in order to suggest something like 22mm overflow pipe given that the capacity of the plastic sump and the size of the outlet from it's side are so restrictive. It would be true to say that, in use, water does only dribble from it due to the internal diameter of 13mm and the way the outlet from the sump is sited (i.e. quite close to the top of the sump.... hence my saying that if you vigorously tipped a jug full of water into the sump it would simply overflow the sides and run all over the worktop. It's fine with the output of the grouphead but not for heavy duty rinsing.

As mentioned, the pipe I used (available at motor spares shops and Ebay) is fine... ordinarily it's designed for things like car radiators/cooling systems and is heavy duty and flexible... and cheap! You can buy any length off the roll plus pre-formed elbows plus jointing pieces. It's handy stuff. Needs no sealing tape or compound... just a push fit is OK.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

That's nice Stan, so neat and looks oem


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

Well, remember that the black plastic sump IS 'oem'. It's only the pipework that's from Ebay.

You can see the switch in the photos that swaps from tank to plumbed in....on the left of the machine under the two symbols for tank and tap.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Well I had a great time at BB and David Lombari spent lots of time with me, answering questions etc. Not sure if David ever comes on here though I couldn't thank him enough.

I ended up with a ECM Mechanica profi rotary which I thought was excellent value for money.

Thanks to this forum I'm sure I've been able to skip a few expensive 'learning purchases' and go straight to something that I'll keep for a long time - thanks guys.

You'll mostly see me in the ECM group now asking questions..... hoping the @DevonStan is lurking in there


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

Good man.

I guess you've started to form a plan regarding whether or not it'll be plumbed and/or drained. Thereafter you'll be thinking about what beans to use, what milk to use, what water filter to use (obviously assuming plumbing)... what basket and tamper to use, how much coffee you'll be sticking in your basket, how much pressure to tamp, what grind setting, how long to aim for when pulling a shot. All of these DO make quite a difference.

It will all come together but don't expect to get it straight away... and it can be a bit disheartening at times in the early stages.

Just as a matter of offering suggestions (and not necessarily something you have to go with) I did buy a few bits from David, after having had a couple of chats on the phone and have no regrets.... an IMS Competition E61 Shower Screen for £13,29 + vat, a Motta Competition 58.4mm brown wood flat base tamper for £20.83 + vat, an 18 gram VST *RIDGELESS* basket for £19.99 + vat. The tamper is an ideal fit in both the standard basket and the VST basket. I also went for a 5 hole steam tip (froths up a lot quicker than the standard 2 hole) , plus a rubber blank Disc for 83 pence + vat (for back flushing - saves swapping over to the metal blank basket). With the benefit of hindsight I would buy each and every one of these items due to the benefit I, personally, gain from them.

I use a 2000gram cheap weigh scale from Ebay similar to this : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electronic-Pocket-Mini-Digital-Gold-Jewelry-Weighing-Scale-0-1g-Weight-2000-Gram-/262761233429?hash=item3d2dca3c15:g:8e0AAOSw6DtYT7Uj which serves to measure the output from the grinder plus the liquid output from the grouphead... as in I weigh out 15.6 grams coffee from the grinder and then weigh out around 32 grams liquid (maybe a little over) when drawing a shot from the grouphead.

There is an absolute relationship between the above factors... that is to say the amount of coffee in the basket, the grind of the coffee, the actual type and make and age of the coffee used, the amount of pressure you tamp at, the length of time of the shot. Don't tamp more than 30 pounds.

Beyond that I also use a Wilko sprayer http://www.wilko.com/hose-pipes-sprinklers+spray-guns/wilko-sprayer-trigger-tealgreen-550ml/invt/0310567 filled with plain cold water to spray the underside of the grouphead after every shot to rinse it out (this is in addition to the routine clean water backflush - don't backflush with cleaning powder too often... it doesn't need it given the routines I've outlined..... i.e. a cold water backflush every time and a spray with the Wilko bottle. Additionally you will find the shower screen I mentioned drops down easily using a teaspoon to lever it out and can be washed out and wiped dry in no time.

Can't think of too much else to speak of.

Await your updates etc. Enjoy your new machine (I'm confident you will).


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

This is great, thanks Stan - I got some of this stuff from David also though not everything:

The IMS shower screen and VST basket looks interesting, can you tell me why it's ridgeless?

The 5 hole steam tip sounds good - though as my first attempt at milk steaming ever was this week at BB do you think it might be too quick for me until I get some experience?


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

Hopefully others will add their views and thoughts... but the matter of ridged v ridgeless is age old and people discuss it to the n'th degree. Some say the use of ridgeless has a tangible effect on the produced result but others simplify it by sticking solely to the convenience of being able to remove the basket from the portafilter (pf) without having to lever it out using a spoon or whatever they might use. I'm in the latter camp. The items I've suggested fit perfectly with each other hence you can separate the basket and pf to clean them easily, by hand, after each session. Use a microfibre cloth. (If you keep a simple flat kitchen sponge, a microfibre cloth and some bicarbonate of soda nearby you won't need much else to keep the machine clean.)

If you steam milk for one milky drink (i.e. a cappuccino) then the two hole is probably the better bet for reasons you've implied. To steam the milk for two starts to become a bit tiresome with the two hole tip due to the extra time... but, realistically, it's only a few seconds... maybe half a minute. Your choice of milk jug will depend on how much milk you're going to steam at any one time...i.e. sufficient for one cup or two. If you might do two then you may as well get the five hole tip included with any mail order to save the postage costs at a later date.

I say again, you won't get it right straight away but don't be put off as it will definitely come after practice (and reading up on techniques and checking Youtube videos).


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Ah, well getting the basket out has already been annoying me so I'd like to go ridgeless too.

I already bought a Motta 58mm tamper from David though it's boxed and unused - perhaps I should swap this for the 58.4mm?

I got a nice cloth - how do you incorporate the sponge and soda in to your regime?


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

The sponge for mopping up - for example the drip tray - wiping out the basket etc...the microfibre for final drying after the sponge and for keeping the shiny bits shiny.

The bicarb for backflushing once a month (at the most). I also add a tiny amount to my tank water to help keep the innards clean. I was told to do it six or seven yrs ago and have done so religiously ever since and it seemed to keep my previous machines spotless. Not applicable in your case if you're plumbing in with a filter. You can soak your pf in bicarb for a while to keep it spotless.... it's general cleaner and it's as cheap as chips.

EDIT.... yes, the 58.4 is what you want.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Cheers Stan, stuff ordered.


----------



## Spud36 (May 22, 2015)

Hi

Been following this thread with interest. When you state adding a tiny amount of bicarb in the water tank. Roughly how much is that. I have a mechanika and am interested in doing this.

Thanks


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

It's not crucial that you add a specific amount but I've always added no more than a quarter of a teaspoon into a full tank.... little more than a pinch really. My understanding is many of the commercially available powders that you buy for cleaning coffee machines contain it but I was advised just to routinely add a tiny amount with every tankful to act as a precaution - and, as I've probably said before, it hasn't done my previous two machines any harm over quite a few years.... they were fault free throughout the time I owned them. Google it, there are a few mentions of it.


----------



## Spud36 (May 22, 2015)

Thanks, it seems a good idea to me.


----------



## Spud36 (May 22, 2015)

Thanks, it seems a good idea to me.


----------



## Spud36 (May 22, 2015)

Sorry, no idea why 2 replies


----------



## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

kennyboy993 said:


> Yeah the more I read, the more it seems it might even be more convenient than plumbing water feed for some.....
> 
> In my kitchen this 'bank' of cabinets is completely separate to the bank with sink, dishwasher etc on it.
> 
> Best I could do is drill a hole in worktop perhaps, and let water drain in to huge container in the cabinet below...... that sort of thing been done?


That is exactly what I've done - will send a picture later on if I remember!


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

So I'm away at last, thanks to help from so many - not least Stan my second shot was drinkable and I enjoyed it.

Going to learn mainly by doing now though couple of things Stan if you're around still:

1. How do I knock the puck out after pulling a shot with the ridgeless? It's completely loose in the pf of course so I can't just do it with a knock box with the pf

2. The rubber blanker does not completely fill the base of the vat basket so doing a clean water backflush still allowed some water to pass through the bottom of the pf - that ok u think?


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

kennyboy993 said:


> So I'm away at last, thanks to help from so many - not least Stan my second shot was drinkable and I enjoyed it.
> 
> Going to learn mainly by doing now though couple of things Stan if you're around still:
> 
> ...


Has your portafilter not got the little wire spring in it then? My ridgeless VST is held reasonably tightly by the spring.

If it's only a dribble and toy still get a decent surge of water when you stop the pump them maybe it's ok. Blind baskets must be cheap though.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Ah cheers, I've put the wire back in and that's sorted. I misinterpreted Stan's post earlier.

There's a bit of a surge and that's it. I got the rubber blanket to not have to keep swapping pf with the blind filter in it - just convenience really


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

I was going to say exactly what hm said. The spring clip on my pf holds the VST at exactly the right tension... that is to say tight enough to hold it in place when doing the business... but loose enough to allow you to remove it from the pf with your fingers (if it's a tiny bit tight just use the cloth whilst you take it out). You can actually adjust the amount of tension the spring clip offers simply by bending it's shape a bit.

And ditto re. the rubber disc. It just about covers the holes in the VST (in the stock basket it covers tho whole of the base of the basket comfortably) and the little dribble that it allows to pass is OK providing (as mentioned above) that you get a half decent whoosh of backflushed water. If you watch the right hand gauge you'll see the pressure rise to about "10" when it's found its max pressure... sometimes, when using the rubber disc, it doesn't push the pressure up on the gauge which indicates it's leaking a bit too much water round the disc - whereas with the metal blank basket the pressure ALWAYS goes up to "10" coz it's a totally blanked off basket and not a flimsy disc of rubber. There's nothing to stop you just using the supplied blank (blind) basket... it's six of one and half a dozen of the other - but the rubber disc is just a tad quicker to do - there's only a few seconds in it. There is a school of thought that the rubber disc is advantageous coz it ramps up the pressure more gently than the metal blank basket and is thus more sympathetic to the pump etc... but that could simply be tosh.

I recently found out the hard way (although not especially hard) that it pays to splodge a drop of silicone grease up into the ball joints of the steam wand and the hot water tap (see my other mention of it in another recent topic). I've now fitted new "o" rings into both but the grease would have saved me doing that. To be extra sure of getting grease where it's needed you can (carefully) partly dismantle the steam wand and hot water tap ball joints and loosen the body (having loosed the upper locknut first) by unscrewing it a few turns *whilst pushing UP on the respective steam wand / hot water spout* and forcing the grease up into the joint with your finger tip. The act of forcing the wands up creates a gap where the grease can penetrate.... and it also takes the tension out of the spring thius making unscrewing the body much easier. The other topic mentions this and might explain it clearer.

EDIT. If you are going to dismantle the bodies of the steam wand/hot tap then use an adjustable spanner ( i.e. with parallel jaws) BUT wrap insulating tape round the jaws to save damging the finish.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Cheers - I'll have a look at that when I feel more comfortable with things.

When you backflush do you put the lever in the half way position after the 10 seconds of pumping? The ecm vid on YouTube shows it that way


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

To be honest I just move the lever from fully open to fully closed in one gentle movement. But you have it plumbed in and I believe, because of that, you get some continuing flow with the lever in the midway position - I don't get that flow coz I'm tank fed and don't have your added pressure.

I think I would say you don't have to hold it for 10 seconds. A bit less is probably just as effective and isn't running the pump under pressure for so long. Sometimes I just do two short backflushes. Be guided by how many (if any) coffee particles are left in the metal blank basket.

Don't forget to get that spray bottle to wash the underside of the shower screen and remember to drop the screen now and again to clean it off... the tip of a spoon will do it. Just push it back up when you're done and offer the pf up to secure it in place.


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Just to add to that, a plain water back flush will help keep things cleaner, but oils will still accumulate in the group, and particles will still get behind the shower screen. Worth popping the shower screen off at the end of each day and washing it. Pulycaff back flush gets the oils out of the group parts that are not easily accessible but you really will then have to pop the lever off and relube the cams and followers with a dab of food safe silicone grease or Molycote 111.


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

Point taken, hm.

I, personally, haven't gone as far as removing the lever to grease the cam yet. I'm sure once you've done once then the next time will be a piece of cake. As it happens - and to prove that everyone has their own point of view - the bloke who supplies my beans says don't ever take the lever out to grease it and just have the machine serviced once a year. But he did make the point that using Pulycaff too often will necessitate it's regular removal and greasing up the cam.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks Stan, btw I got the spray - copying your regimen.

Good advice, thanks hotmetal. I fitted ims screen today and although easy I'm not keen on screen removal at end of each day. Maybe with spray technique I can remove screen weekly


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

Good man! Re. dropping the screen, I can only say that maybe it'll become apparent how often you'll need to do it? Mine gets done possibly weekly but sometimes a bit longer and it genuinely is very, very clean each time I do it. Therefore, for me, daily is too much - but I only turn the machine on a maximum three times a day and mostly just twice and occasionally just once. It does drop down really easily though so that'll have to be something to learn as time goes by.

When I dropped my Oscar screen it was always a lot muckier so maybe the design of the portfilter and the IMS screen and the VST basket etc all conspire towards keeping it generally clean?


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I've also wondered about the screen. I'm using the standard screen that comes on an early R58 and I find that if I drop the screen less often than, say, every 2-3 days or so there is a layer of old coffee fines that I prefer not to have. I wonder if these fancy ones from IMS have a finer mesh and keep more fines out? Although I doubt it somehow - I am talking about microscopic particles coming out of suspension rather than stray grinds.

Fair point about matey saying "don't pulycaff, disassemble and lube - just have it serviced annually" but transporting an espresso machine is a risky business with a cost attached, and also the gunk in the group will be a year old. Then again if you're concerned about messing something up its maybe worth taking (not couriering) it to a pro. Shame there aren't a load of mobile espresso techs on the forum!


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

hotmetal said:


> I've also wondered about the screen. I'm using the standard screen that comes on an early R58 and I find that if I drop the screen less often than, say, every 2-3 days or so there is a layer of old coffee fines that I prefer not to have. I wonder if these fancy ones from IMS have a finer mesh and keep more fines out? Although I doubt it somehow - I am talking about microscopic particles coming out of suspension rather than stray grinds.
> 
> Fair point about matey saying "don't pulycaff, disassemble and lube - just have it serviced annually" but transporting an espresso machine is a risky business with a cost attached, and also the gunk in the group will be a year old. Then again if you're concerned about messing something up its maybe worth taking (not couriering) it to a pro. Shame there aren't a load of mobile espresso techs ob the forum!


I have to say whenever I drop the IMS screen there is only ever a mild discolouration ... not even what you'd call a layer of detritus. You can wipe it it off with your finger (although, obviously, it gets a rinse). I haven't had to use any powder cleaner on it. Likewise I haven't had to use powder cleaner on the portafilter since buying the machine ... just a wipe round after every use is sufficient and there's virtually no staining at all. But with the Oscar everything needed much more regular attention. Can't answer that one.


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Cheers. I've never really needed to use pulycaff on the shower screen - it's more just to wipe away the 'coffee dust' that accumulates. When the group is cold it's very easy to drop the screen, rinse it, wipe and/or brush the dispersion block and refit. It's part of my routine every couple of days (unlike the classic which needed a screwdriver and the machine on its back).


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

Ah yes, the Classic! Both the Oscar and the Classic (as I recall) each had a screw holding the screen and block in place and I did change the conventional slotted screw for a stainless jobbie with a hex head so you could use an Allen Key to undo them. And quite a few of the adverts for Classics that I see here do look a bit manky under there. Maybe simply due to an absence of cleaning?


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Maybe, or indeed the reverse!

One thing that people do with Classics is descale and back flush with pulycaff without bothering to remove the shower screen. This leads to chem discolouration of the dispersion block, which is not a problem per se, but does make it look somewhat grim.


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

Valid point. To be honest, much as I thought the Classic and the Oscar were fine at the time... and indeed they were fine at the time, I have to say the daily experience of using a nicer machine is a real treat. It took me six or seven years to get a proper(ish) shiny box but now it's here I'd be hard pushed to live without it. (Actually that's a daft thing to say in the scheme of things.... but you know what I mean )

Bed time.

Night.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

David at BB kindly gave me the teflon coated ims screen as they'd run out of the standard one - at no extra cost. Hopefully that might have a small positive impact in keeping itself clean along with a good daily and 'per shot' cleaning regimen?


----------



## DevonStan (Sep 19, 2016)

It may well. Good luck as you progress... as surely you will.


----------

