# Elizabeth pre-infusion pressure



## 3timesaday

Hi,

I just got a new Elizabeth V3! I'm testing the pre-infusion feature with the steam boiler. I can't get more than 2 bar of pressure during pre-infusion phase, even with steam boiler at max temp and a blind basket (or coffee). The display (and YouTube videos) show it should go up to 4 bars. Should I care?


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## MediumRoastSteam

That's depart on the amount of time of he pump run setting and, in the case of steam pre-infusion, the temperature set in the steam boiler.

with steam pre-infusion, with the boiler set at 140C with no offset, the steam pre-infusion pressure is around 2 bar.

please read the Dave's review and the Elizabeth's thread over a few days as per here:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/62493-elizabeth-coffee-boiler-overheat-at-startup/?do=embed&comment=864047&embedComment=864047&embedDo=findComment

welcome to the forum.


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## 3timesaday

Thanks for the quick response. Could you repost that link? Thanks again!


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## Del

3timesaday said:


> Thanks for the quick response. Could you repost that link? Thanks again!


 https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/05/08/lelit-elizabeth/

Enjoy!!


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## MediumRoastSteam

3timesaday said:


> Thanks for the quick response. Could you repost that link? Thanks again!


 I did post the link on your other post! 🤣


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## 3timesaday

I read through all the Dave's review&#8230; great work!!

The 4 bar pre-infusion idea came from this guy:






Even with my steam boiler set at 145C (293F), my machine pre-infusion never gets beyond 2 bars&#8230; Again, will it make a difference?


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## MediumRoastSteam

@3timesaday - there's no way the Elizabeth will achieve 4 bar steam pre infusion - I'm assuming that's what you are referring about. Just because JavaJim says, it doesn't mean you can. Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Apply your own knowledge and rationale, always.


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## 3timesaday

😀 this is exactly why I question the internet, I don't trust the internet! 🤔 another good topic would be how to simply modify your manometer to do the JavaJim show.

That being said &#8230; water boiling point at 4 bar is 143.6C. It seems reasonable that the steam boiler pressure be around 4 bar when set at 145C (the phase diagram is not from JavaJim&#8230. Since preinfusion is done by an opening of the 2 way valve between the steam boiler and the group head, it seems reasonable that both be about at the same pressure, unless there is a significant amount of expansion space (air) in the system, which should lower the pressure.

I obviously don't get 4 bars on my machine, so either there is the flaw in that rationale (and I'm curious to learn more about this), or there is something wrong with my setup or (hopefully not), my machine.

Are other users able to reproduce JavaJim's 4 bars?


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## DavecUK

@3timesaday *I asked Lelit to modify the software and hardware to my specifications to fix certain problems. *This is how the Version 3 came about. I believe Jims video was with the Version 2....so don't expect to see the same behaviour. I asked for the modifications because in my opinion, the machine didn't work properly and wasn't quite up to the standard for me to review it (which I was only doing as a favour). It was not selling and they sent it to me to tell them why it wasn't selling and fix it....which I did. The Elizabeth is now a good seller and performs exactly as it should...plus it's a really clever little machine!!

At 140C steam temp, you will only generate 2.6 gauge pressure maximum (excluding any compressibility effects and flow through coffee). Gauge pressure of 4 bar, equates to a water temperature of 153C..The Elizabeth is not and has never been capable of this.

P.S. Jims machine probably produced that pressure because of the way it was working then...which was incorrect, IMO.


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## 3timesaday

Thanks Dave, I guess I forgot to include altitude and atmospheric pressure somewhere&#8230; that being solved (happy to know there is nothing wrong with my machine!!), I'm curious to ask if the pre infusion pressure (between 1.5 and 4 bar, excluding bloom technique) can have any significant result on the taste, and if so, what is a setting point that would be preferable as a starting point when discovering new beans..

oh, by the way @DavecUK: yes, this machine is pretty fun to use and it definitely upgraded my life working from home. Thanks for your participation in that great success!


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## DavecUK

> Thanks Dave, I guess I forgot to include altitude and atmospheric pressure somewhere&#8230;


 you did, which is why I said gauge pressure...😉

I think start at the lowest steam pressure that's good for you if you steam milk....or 1 bar if you don't...then work your way up from there. Each coffee is different, and for some a simple bloom phase is preferable. That's what makes the hobby so much fun.

Both duration (of preinfusion) and pressure will have an impact on the taste. The Elizabeth is actually a pretty great machine and even quieter than MaraX.


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## ortinga

Hello,

I hope it is okay, that i use this thread to ask for help with my Elizabeth PL92T v3.

I got the machine a few days ago and started looking for help online about settings and whatnot and came across Dave's great review.

Still at factory presets but with Dave's LLC settings in the back of my head I tried to get good shots while dialing in my grind settings. Then I started to notice that i never reach pressure during preinfusion phase.

Then I thought I am going to try out the advanced LLC settings from here: https://sway.office.com/S5J4d9Jp4Y9LdVFx 
and change the preinfusion times for button 2.

At first I was thinking it has to do with my ground coffee - so i used the blind basket for testing. Still nothing.

I'll attach some videos with all the settings and how I did the test. Help would be appreciated.

LLC Settings: https://photos.app.goo.gl/2NwuThMCa6eWb2v5A

PID Settings and Temperatures: https://photos.app.goo.gl/q2EjE2CaPff3jXer9

Test with Gauge Close Up: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ij1MGU7um9hkZJ2r7

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!


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## MediumRoastSteam

@ortinga - can you do a test again please? 
- fill in blind gasket with water;
- lock it in;
- repeat your test. Is there a reading on the gauge after the 3 second pump run, running to 10 seconds?
- please film the pressure gauge.

Something is not right. At a guess, your solenoid valve, controlled by the EVS setting, it not opening.

If the machine is under warranty, I'd contact the retailer.


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## MediumRoastSteam

3timesaday said:


> how to simply modify your manometer to do the JavaJim show.


 Oh! I now paid attention to the video! It goes to slightly over 3 bar, not 4! Maybe his settings are around 145C + a 5C offset (I.e.: 150C) That will go around there I think. (Gauge readings)

below, snippet from JavaJim video linked above


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## MediumRoastSteam

3timesaday said:


> Are other users able to reproduce JavaJim's 4 bars?


 I never tried, nor have any intention to. You could try the 145C + 5C offset , that's the "Es" setting in advanced settings. Es = 5C is the preset offset from factory, from memory. At least it was on mine.


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## 3timesaday

@ortinga: with my new V3, I wasn't able to go over 2.2 with factory settings. According to @DavecUK, that approximately the most you can get since Lelit changed their design from V2 to V3. Please let me know if (and how) you are able to get more&#8230;
That being said, my previous machine was an entry level one. It took me several shots to get the grind fine enough so the preinfusion would build pressure&#8230;


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## MediumRoastSteam

3timesaday said:


> @ortinga: with my new V3, I wasn't able to go over 2.2 with factory settings. According to @DavecUK, that approximately the most you can get since Lelit changed their design from V2 to V3. Please let me know if (and how) you are able to get more&#8230;


 At the moment, @ortinga 's pressure gauge shows 0 on pre-infusion. 😊

maybe you were referring to me.

and I'd agree with you. With factory settings (that's 140C: 135C + 5C offset) it should be there or thereabouts. For me, it's just below 2bar. I'm also not sure how accurate the gauge is.

So you could try 150C and see where you get to, as described above. You might be able to go to 3 bar or so on the gauge.


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## DavecUK

3timesaday said:


> @ortinga: with my new V3, I wasn't able to go over 2.2 with factory settings. According to @DavecUK, that approximately the most you can get since Lelit changed their design from V2 to V3. Please let me know if (and how) you are able to get more&#8230;


 Im not sure I said that, check this out. It all depends on the temperature you set the steam boiler to. I am not sure the offset will increase the maximum temperature the system is capable off and offset should be 0

https://www.valvesonline.com.au/references/steam-tables/


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## MediumRoastSteam

@DavecUK @3timesaday - I'm going to try the offset trick tomorrow just to see if it works. 👍

I just checked one of my videos. And it seems that, at least from that angle, 140C in the steam boiler equates to exactly 2bar steam pre-infusion on my machine's gauge.


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## europa

I'm curious as well now. As soon as i find time, i will also do a test.


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## DavecUK

@ortinga Try filling the blind filter with tap water first, lock it in and then try....

@MediumRoastSteam Yeah I didn't see his post.


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## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> @ortinga Try filling the blind filter with tap water first, lock it in and then try....
> 
> @MediumRoastSteam Yeah I didn't see his post.


 You didn't see this post either then&#8230; 🤣😉👍- I've already asked exactly that. 😉

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/62491-elizabeth-pre-infusion-pressure/?do=embed&comment=864591&embedComment=864591&embedDo=findComment


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## 3timesaday

My results with the blind filter test. First image at 145C, second at 140C. Maybe there is a small offset on my gauge&#8230;


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## MediumRoastSteam

@3timesaday - so, as you are there, if you go to advance settings and set Es to 5, what do you get? I reckon your gauge will read very close to 3 bar.


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## ortinga

I tried it again after filling the blind basket with water first. It made no difference. There was still absolutely no change in Pre-Infusion Pressure. It was still at 0bar and after the pre-infusion time it topped out at about 9.5 to 10bar.


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## MediumRoastSteam

ortinga said:


> I tried it again after filling the blind basket with water first. It made no difference. There was still absolutely no change in Pre-Infusion Pressure. It was still at 0bar and after the pre-infusion time it topped out at about 9.5 to 10bar.


 Is it under warranty? Contact the retailer and ask for it to be fixed.


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## ortinga

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Is it under warranty? Contact the retailer and ask for it to be fixed.


 Yes, thankfully. I'll contact him - let's hear what he has to say to this. Thanks for your help!


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## MediumRoastSteam

ortinga said:


> Yes, thankfully. I'll contact him - let's hear what he has to say to this. Thanks for your help!


 It could be as simple as a disconnected wire. Sometimes it can happen in transit. But best to contact them. 👍


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## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> It could be as simple as a disconnected wire. Sometimes it can happen in transit. But best to contact them. 👍


 It does seem as if the solenoid valve may not be opening....


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## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> It does seem as if the solenoid valve may not be opening....


 Exactly what I said on my reply earlier to @ortinga earlier. I'm learning! 😉👍


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## DavecUK

@MediumRoastSteam and I was agreeing with you.


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## 3timesaday

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Exactly what I said on my reply earlier to @ortinga earlier. I'm learning! 😉👍


 Reading through advanced settings: @ortinga make sure your steam boiler in not in eco mode, and advanced setting EVS =1&#8230; @MediumRoastSteam: I'm still on factory setting Es = 5. Will try Es = 0 and repost results soon. Thanks all!


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## MediumRoastSteam

@3timesaday finds out I was right. With the steam temperature set to 145C (maximum allowed) and with the "Es" set to 5 (that's the default from factory setting, which makes no sense what so ever, as per @DavecUK review - why would you want an offset on the steam boiler?) this effectively set the temperature of the steam boiler to 150C.

so, what JavaJim did was very simple: he just left the machine alone and set the steam temperature to maximum, which gives a reading on the gauge of just above 3bar, and not 4 bar as he says (but that's not what his gauge shows). Unless he included atmospheric pressure, which would just confuse a lot of people. Personally I think he made a genuine mistake when he read the gauge.

in fact, in November, I recorded what the factory settings were and what the the recommended settings as per Dave's review are. Note "Es" is 5 by default. It might be this has changed with new machines. I have no idea.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/53045-new-upgraded-lelit-on-the-block-elizabeth/?do=embed&comment=789186&embedComment=789186&embedDo=findComment

So this is a picture of my gauge during the steam pre-infusion phase with coffee in the portafilter. I can tell you, the steam out of the steam wand is fierce. 😉

Now, the scary part is that the Es value can go a lot higher than five. I kept going, and went to over 30, so you could effectively set the temperature really, really high until the safety valve goes off. If I remember correctly, the safety valve is rated at 5.5 bar.


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## DavecUK

@MediumRoastSteam i believe there is a max temp that the offset won't allow you to go above.. If you set offset to zero, the max temp you can set is the limit. On the Minima it's the same, you cant fool it above the max, using offset.


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## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> @MediumRoastSteam i believe there is a max temp that the offset won't allow you to go above.. If you set offset to zero, the max temp you can set is the limit. On the Minima it's the same, you cant fool it above the max, using offset.


 I understand that when the offset is 0, 145C is the limit on the Elizabeth. That's how mine is set (and why would anyone set any different, as discussed) and the temp to 140C (hence the 2bar pressure on the gauge).

what I'm saying is, at least on the LCC, I can set the offset value to an insane high value, 50! (See picture) 145 + 50 is 195C which is a lot well above 5.5 bar. Whether there's programming so that he actual temperature cannot exceed a certain value, therefore protecting the machine and constraining it to the limit of the safety valve, I don't know and I am not prepared to test it either - for obvious reasons. 😉

Saying all of this, back in the day I was setting some values on my Profitec 700 and adjusted one of the offset values too high by mistake. Lo and behold, machine turned on and the safety valve popped. So no protection there what so ever.


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## europa

With SB set to 145C and Es set to 0, i get ca.2.8 bar with the blind filter.

Changing Es to 5 gets me to ca. 3.4 bar.

Changing Es to 10 gets me to 4.5 bar!!


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## europa




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## europa

I've just also noted that as you increase the value of Es, the temp on the gauge does actually rise as well. I was well above 150C when I did the last test.


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## 3timesaday

So, things seems to be a little clearer&#8230; I did some test on pre infusion pump time and ES parameter. Results are below. My conclusions:

1. Between pump run 1s or 3s, the effect on pre infusion pressure seams not significant.

2. As @europa , @DavecUK, @MediumRoastSteam noted before, each ES incremental correspond to 1C incremental in the steam boiler, which translate to modification in pre infusion pressure.

3. In order to get 2 bars of pre infusion with 140C, @DavecUK machine ES = 0, whereas mine ES = 7&#8230; so either my temp gauge or my pressure gauge (or both) needs calibration&#8230;


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## europa

What I'd love to know is what exactly is the point of the offset?!


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## MediumRoastSteam

@3timesaday - Based on what you are showing above, it seems your gauge is off by ~ 1 bar?


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## MediumRoastSteam

europa said:


> What I'd love to know is what exactly is the point of the offset?!


 For the steam boiler, there's no point! It should be set to 0. For the coffee (brew) boiler, the offset should be set to 10, as that's the difference between the water inside the boiler and the temperature of the water by the time it reaches the group.

There's no point for offset on the steam boiler what so ever. I don't understand why there's even a setting for this. But this is not a Lelit thing. Other machines, such as ACS, ECM and Profitec, also have it.

All we are trying to show here is how can we increase the temperature beyond what's allowed in the temperature range. It serves no purpose really.


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## europa

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @3timesaday - Based on what you are showing above, it seems your gauge is off by ~ 1 bar?


 Agree totally. His readings are almost exactly 1b below mine each time.

Do you get the same if you test at 145 (with Es 5 less)?

@3timesaday


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## 3timesaday

europa said:


> Agree totally. His readings are almost exactly 1b below mine each time.
> 
> Do you get the same if you test at 145 (with Es 5 less)?
> 
> @3timesaday


 This was in a previous post&#8230; Es = 5, T = 145&#8230;

thanks all for sharing your results!


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## MediumRoastSteam

3timesaday said:


> This was in a previous post&#8230; Es = 5, T = 145&#8230;
> 
> thanks all for sharing your results!
> 
> View attachment 61053


 Whereas on mine, wit the same setting (145C + Es=5) = 150C

View attachment 61009


It's almost as if your gauge is off by 1 bar. Maybe needs to be calibrated. I have no idea how to do it.


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## 3timesaday

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Whereas on mine, wit the same setting (145C + Es=5) = 150C
> 
> View attachment 61009
> 
> 
> It's almost as if your gauge is off by 1 bar. Maybe needs to be calibrated. I have no idea how to do it.


 Yes agreed. Thank you too for sharing.


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## ortinga

So just a quick update on my issue with my Elizabeth.

After contacting the retailer and sending him the same videos as I posted here, he forwarded the issue to Lelit. They proposed to replace 2 Safety Thermostats (PN: MC521). At the moment I am waiting for the arrival of the parts. I will keep you updated once i replaced them.


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## 3timesaday

Hi all! Quick update and a question.

I went back to my vendor and he contacted Lelit. They answered:

1. Pressure gauge may have +/- 1 bar precision, which explains my results: my gauge is off by -1 bar. Nothing to do with it.

2. Lelit suggest Es < 5 because temperature probe is not working well above 150C.

Here is the question: with properly dialed in puck (or with blind filter on), the pressure gauge goes up to 10.5 or 11 bars. If I correct this reading to take into account my gauge offset, this means 11.5 or 12 bars. This seems a lot. @DavecUK @MediumRoastSteam, what would you do. Would you adjust the over pressure valve to get closer to 9 bars?

thanks!


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## MediumRoastSteam

@3timesaday - yes. I would, in your case, adjust the pressure until the machine gauge reads approx. 8.5 with a blind basket.

It's also very annoying your gauge reads as such. Could you talk with your vendor and suggest they fit - or ask you to fit a new gauge properly calibrated?

if you are ever curious, you could mount a gauge on a spouted PF (remove the spouts) and attach a 3/8" bsp female fitting with a pressure gauge.


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## 3timesaday

MediumRoastSteam said:


> if you are ever curious, you could mount a gauge on a spouted PF (remove the spouts) and attach a 3/8" bsp female fitting with a pressure gauge.


 Annoying yes, but from what I understood, they won't change it because it's working inside expected range&#8230;

Thanks for the suggestion! It is now on the TODO list of Holidays to come.

cheers!


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## Nam

ortinga said:


> So just a quick update on my issue with my Elizabeth.
> 
> After contacting the retailer and sending him the same videos as I posted here, he forwarded the issue to Lelit. They proposed to replace 2 Safety Thermostats (PN: MC521). At the moment I am waiting for the arrival of the parts. I will keep you updated once i replaced them.


 @ortinga i am having the exact same problem for my lelit which i purchased for 1 months. Not realizing there could be a problem until i decided to play around with the advance setting and pre-infusion after 1 month of using it.

Here is my setting:

EVS =1; BLS1 = 3; PI1 = 8; blind filter with water

The first 8 second the pressure guage keep at 0, and then reach 10bar after the defined preinfusion time.

Using the same setting to make coffee, i can see coffee came out from the spout softly during the preinfusion time.. seems the 2way valve is working..

Hope you have some good news the issue is fixed.. i am going to contract my retailer also.


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