# ACS Minima steamer boiler fault



## DanW (Jul 12, 2019)

Looking for help here. Could be that I am doing something wrong, but my steam boiler has started spitting lots of water from the top centre brass valve on heat up. This is causing the machine to short out and tripping my circuit breaker.

If I restart the machine and continue it does heat up and I can steam but then it is intermittent and spluttery and steam/water is escaping from the ball joint of the steam wand and spraying around.

Been happening for a few days and I thought maybe some air had got pulled in but a couple of water tanks through and it's not getting any better.

Any ideas?


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## DanW (Jul 12, 2019)

Spraying out from here in multiple directions


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## DanW (Jul 12, 2019)

Update:

Just turned it on to try a flush and instantly saw that it is also leaking from another location


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

It looks like it is leaking from the joint . Have you tried a gentle tightening of both ?


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Assuming that the leaks aren't due to faulty joints, try refitting with a little PTFE tape.

The first one is the safety valve and shouldn't leak. Probably best to replace it as you shouldn't mess with it as you will spoil the setting.

The second one is the anti vac valve, it is nomal for it to spit a bit on warm up until it seals under pressure. If it continues to spit, best replace that too, they are cheap enough.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The steam boiler is overfilling. When water heats it expands and will come out of the safety valve and vacuum breaker. You need to fix the cause of the boiler overfilling which will be something simple..


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

I agree with the above. Did the first item circled leak from the centre hole or around where the nut abuts the boiler ? If it is from the centre hole either you have a faulty safety valve OR the boiler is over heating / pressurising . Hopefully from the nut and PTFE should cure that.

The other valve vacuum releases air / moisture as the boiler heats up, a slight mist / spray is normal. If leaking around the nut PTFE will cure the problem


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I'm actually pretty sure the service boiler is overfilling


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## DanW (Jul 12, 2019)

@DavecUK what are possible route causes of the steam boiler over filling? Any troubleshooting you would recommend?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Take a look at the



DanW said:


> If I restart the machine and continue it does heat up and I can steam but then it is intermittent and spluttery and steam/water is escaping from the ball joint of the steam wand and spraying around.


 Obvious the boiler is over filling because of this...

Check the auto fill probe for continuity using a multimeter.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

DanW said:


> @DavecUK what are possible route causes of the steam boiler over filling? Any troubleshooting you would recommend?


 What @Rob1 said is always helpful

*make sure the machine is on an RCD protected socket*

You need to be systematic in identifying the cause of the fault. Open the top plate 6 screws (when you re tighten put them all in loose before tightening fully, not trying to tighten each one fully in turn but trying to do them all evenly one after the other until all are tight, not massively tight of course). Switch on just the brew boiler. Then do the following tests for now.

1. Does the pump run when you switch the power on but do not lift the brew switch

2. Does water piss out of the two areas when the pump runs as in 1 above

3. Put in a blind filter, run the pump as if brewing, does water start pissing out of those 2 areas on the top of the service boiler

4. Is the little connector to the autofill probe (wire that looks like a bent coathanger) in place and secure not loose (especially the pump runs intermittently in test 1)

4. Is the wire to the connector actually connected properly, use a torch to trace it back (if the pump runs in test 1)

5. Wobble the autofill probe wire a little, does the pump cut in and out.


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## evanr (May 23, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> What @Rob1 said is always helpful
> 
> *make sure the machine is on an RCD protected socket*
> 
> You need to be systematic in identifying the cause of the fault. Open the top plate 6 screws (when you re tighten put them all in loose before tightening fully, not trying to tighten each one fully in turn but trying to do them all evenly one after the other until all are tight, not massively tight of course). Switch on just the brew boiler. Then do the following tests for now.


 Hi @DavecUK, hope you don't mind me jumping on this thread as I have the same problem as the original post. Before performing this test, I only experienced leakage from the steam pressure locking nut (circled in the second picture in this thread) due to what I think is an overfilling service tank. when I followed your steps here, I experienced high pressure water shooting from the safety valve (circled in first picture).

To answer the specific questions:

1. Does the pump run when you switch the power on but do not lift the brew switch

No, I waited about 2 minutes.

2. Does water piss out of the two areas when the pump runs as in 1 above

no

3. Put in a blind filter, run the pump as if brewing, does water start pissing out of those 2 areas on the top of the service boiler

Not while the brew pump was going. After finishing the blank shot, 5-10 seconds later, the pump re-engaged, and high pressure water shot out of the safety valve (first picture in thread). Lots of water coming out of the steam boiler. I shut off the machine to stop it.

4. Is the little connector to the autofill probe (wire that looks like a bent coathanger) in place and secure not loose (especially the pump runs intermittently in test 1)

it now swivels a little bit after I gently tested this. the nuts are not loose, but the probe swivels within the white plastic ring.

4. Is the wire to the connector actually connected properly, use a torch to trace it back (if the pump runs in test 1)

I have verified the electrical continuity with a multimeter from the probe to the computer box. connection is in good order.

5. Wobble the autofill probe wire a little, does the pump cut in and out.

no the pump does not react to the swivelling probe


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Check the thin black wire from the Gicar to the base of the case, or depending on model it might be to another part of the frame. Is it making a good commection, no corrosion on mounting bolt or nut and not loose.


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## evanr (May 23, 2019)

yes, the ground wire at the bottom of the gicar is well grounded. I also checked the other thin black wire on the same connector, and it is well connected to the water sensing probe in the boiler


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## paul whu (Sep 25, 2014)

I'm now having the same problem on the same machine.... But only when the steam boiler is switched on. Can make espresso no problem.

Have removed the valve (twice) and replaced PTFE.

I think the seal is ok because as the machine warms up water is being expelled through the hole. Quite frustrating for my daughter who enjoys a flat white.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

paul whu said:


> I'm now having the same problem on the same machine.... But only when the steam boiler is switched on. Can make espresso no problem.
> 
> Have removed the valve (twice) and replaced PTFE.
> 
> I think the seal is ok because as the machine warms up water is being expelled through the hole. Quite frustrating for my daughter who enjoys a flat white.


 From which valve? The anti vac (pic 2) or the safety valve (pic 1).

The anti vac valve will remain in a down (almost flush) as in the 2nd picture when cool and on initial warm up. When the boiler starts to properly heat it will pop up and seal and allow pressure to build. If there is actual water coming out of it then it is likely the boiler is over filling in which case check the fill level probe is correctly attached.

If it is steam leaking when the boiler is up to pressure then allow the machine to cool. Take the valve off, give it a good clean and ensure it can move freely and pop it back in.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

paul whu said:


> I'm now having the same problem on the same machine.... But only when the steam boiler is switched on. Can make espresso no problem.
> 
> Have removed the valve (twice) and replaced PTFE.
> 
> I think the seal is ok because as the machine warms up water is being expelled through the hole. Quite frustrating for my daughter who enjoys a flat white.


 The same problem? The service boiler is overfilling. What steps have you taken to diagnose/resolve it?


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## paul whu (Sep 25, 2014)

Thanks for responding, appreciated.

The only steps I've taken so far is to remove the valve and put it back with PTFE tape. I am fairly satisfied that the water is being expelled through the vents at the side and I have a decent seal at the join.

The problem is the big brass fitting as in picture 1.

I am not a natural tinkerer with machines but vaguely get what's going on. I facetimed my plumber friend who guessed the fitting was faulty but it could well be a fault of over filling due to a faulty probe.

I will try an attach a video i sent him. By the way, after refitting the valve I had no problems for a few hours but this morning I woke to a wet worktop and tripped out sockets!! I have it on a timer switch btw.


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## paul whu (Sep 25, 2014)

The video is too big apparently. Anyway I push the rod (in the barrel of the fitting) up and down a few times and comment that there is a fair amount of resistance. I was able to make a flat white and thought the problem had been resolved but I was mistaken. To be honest I was feeling quite pleased with myself for a short while. Now I'm frustrated.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Do you get goo steam when you prepare milk? What happens when you try to pull water, let's say about 200-300 mls?

Have you taken out the water level probe?

I wonder whether the water level probe doesn't stop the pump from overfilling and whether a firmware upgrade can resolve it.


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## paul whu (Sep 25, 2014)

I only get steam if i switch that feature (boiler)on. Always been happy with it.

Which is the water probe? And how do I remove it?

Is it possible to update the firmwear on a coffee machine such as this?

I still have the handbook which came with the machine but this issue isn't covered. I think I'm still under warranty from Bella Barista but getting hold of them is not easy right now.

I spoke with somebody who promised me a return call from an engineer but it never happened and now they aren't even taking calls. Must be a lockdown thing.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Upload the video to you tube and post the link.

Do not worry about firmware!


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

The firmware is not easy (and shouldn't be) to apply at home. BB should be able to do it if needed.

The autofill (water level) probe should be on the same line with the vacuum breaker and the safety valve in the middle, on the right.

Someone with Minima should confirm it out but this seems to be it.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Not sure why you think firmware is an issue, especially when the problem has not always existed.

@paul whu

When I asked what steps you had taken I meant have you carried out the things Dave suggested above? You say you have the same problem so would assume you followed the same instructions.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Rob1 said:


> Not sure why you think firmware is an issue, especially when the problem has not always existed.
> 
> @paul whu
> 
> When I asked what steps you had taken I meant have you carried out the things Dave suggested above? You say you have the same problem so would assume you followed the same instructions.


 The firmware was just a thought given three cases suffer from the same? issue, something to do with overfilling the steam boiler that inevitably leads to the autofill probe.

I am not sure this would be the solution. It could be a faulty probe?


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Is it possible RO water to trick the autofill probe causing the issue?

No one stated what water they use.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Unlikely. I fill mine with distilled water measuring 0 TDS. There's always a little water in the boiler after I drain it and when I draw some off with a TDS meter after adding less than 500ml DI it measures less than 5 so by the time I've topped it up to just above 1.5 litres it's going to be even lower than most RO systems produce.

It's possible they've all been scaled up if any minerals are present in the feed water and the boiler has never been drained.

Of course it could be something with the gicar unit or wiring. If it were firmware you'd probably see this in a lot more units and the problem would be apparent from the time it was manufactured, it wouldn't just manifest itself months into use.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Good points Rob. I hope it is just faulty/dirty/scaled water level probe.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Maybe descale the service boiler before disassembling the lot. It may clear any scale that's on the boiler level probe. FYI the boiler level probe is the one with the metal armature off it with a black wire (grounding I think) attached (uppermost left in this image). Funnily enough my service boiler has been doing some odd things recently too, with a manufacturing date of April last year.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

The level probe is just conductive metal so it's not going to be faulty. Could be a continuity fault though or scaled up and preventing conductivity. Or a wiring could have come loose from vibrations.

@Cooffe

It looks like you've ot a leak around your temperature probe...

Could I ask you to outline your usage? Water used, mineral content, bicarbonate/carbonate content, frequency of steaming, frequency of emptying the boiler via the hot water tap.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Rob1 said:


> The level probe is just conductive metal so it's not going to be faulty. Could be a continuity fault though or scaled up and preventing conductivity. Or a wiring could have come loose from vibrations.
> 
> @Cooffe
> 
> ...


 That's just a generic picture I found on the internet, not my actual boiler lol. I think mine is an issue with overfilling. I've also noticed my PID showing about 136C on the service boiler when it's set at 126 (I think with a 16 degree offset). It is intermittent though so I'm not 100% sure whether it's a Gicar grounding issue


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Ok....so how has the boiler been used?

There shouldn't be an offset on the service boiler and if the pid does show 136c there's probably an issue with the settings affecting how quickly it responds to temperature changes. Have you had a look at the advanced settings?


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Probably going to get slated here but I tend to only empty the boiler when I descale so maybe twice a year (at least I've done it twice since I picked up the machine). As far as mineral content goes I use Ashbeck much to the disgust of some here, but do try to maintain a regular descaling schedule (once every 6 mo. or so).

Ref the PID settings, they haven't been modified since I bought it and they were already set to the recommended settings as Dave highlighted in the manual. Also the overshoot to 136C hasn't always been happening, I've only noticed it in the past month or two, and as far as I'm aware it's not overshot that much before (maybe by 1C or so but not 10).


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Have you removed the temp probe to have a look at it?

It isn't just scale to be concerned with it's chlorides with 316l steel, especially in vapour. Ashbeck has 15mg/l which is enough to corrode 316l steel especially in steam applications (as low as 10ppm can cause SCC). Why are you descaling if you're using ashbeck, or are you just descaling the service boiler?

I fill my boiler with DI water and feed it with the following: 25-30mg/l Magnesium as CaCO3, Bicarbonates 50-55, Sodium 10mg/l. That's it. After 5 weeks of steaming about 500ml daily I need to drain the boiler and refill it with DI water to prevent scaling. So after 5 weeks the water has gone from having nothing in it to being saturated enough with bicarbonates and minerals from the above water that scale will soon start to deposit.

If you fill it with ashbeck and only ever remove water via steam then (if you use it the same as me) you'll see the mineral composition double within 5 weeks and you'll have 30mg/l chlorides and about 84.4mg/ hardness as CaCO3, with an alkalinity of 40. At a boiler temp of 125c you're looking at scale depositing before you even get to this point and it'll continue for the next 15 or so weeks.

I'm not sure to what extent you'd see corrosion from chlorides causing problems. I think it's likely it would take a very long time to see anything wrong with the boiler itself but maybe components with thin platings or sheaths could be affected, perhaps even the threads could get damaged. Honestly I prefer to just avoid the possibility.


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## Martin R (May 2, 2020)

Hi Paul

Bella Barista will call you and they are taking calls but please be patient as only two members of staff in the business due to distancing

And only one Technical person who is dealing with all the technical enquiries if you left a number with reception or answer phone you will get a call back tomorrow.

If you don't by 10 am please call again as your message may have been lost or number recorded incorrectly


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## heirborn (Apr 3, 2020)

Was your issue resolved?

ive had a very similar issue with the boiler over filling right from the start and it was finally sent back to Bella Barista.

the leak was coming from the vale off centre of the boiler even when the steam boiler was switched off. 
Ive just heard back from BB who said they are changing the control unit and testing it again. Maybe that's the cause of your issue too?


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## DanW (Jul 12, 2019)

heirborn said:


> Was your issue resolved?
> 
> ive had a very similar issue with the boiler over filling right from the start and it was finally sent back to Bella Barista.
> 
> ...


 My issue recurs intermittently. I've tuned my ears to listen in for the service boiler pump kicking in and running too long and if I kill the power in time it avoids overfilling and causing the issue.

Strikes me that it works perfectly almost all of the time but an occasional signal inconsistency associated with the fill level trips the pump on and causes all the issues associated with overfilling.

If BB have a permanent fix id love to no longer have the issue.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

DanW said:


> My issue recurs intermittently. I've tuned my ears to listen in for the service boiler pump kicking in and running too long and if I kill the power in time it avoids overfilling and causing the issue.
> 
> Strikes me that it works perfectly almost all of the time but an occasional signal inconsistency associated with the fill level trips the pump on and causes all the issues associated with overfilling.
> 
> If BB have a permanent fix id love to no longer have the issue.


 If it only happens occasionally there has to be a loose connection there that is effected by heat or vibration, could be the ground wires or I guess it could be a faulty brain box, possibly a bad solder joint but I'd imagine there's strict quality control over that...it could potentially be a loose crimp on one of the wires that vibrates loose and fixes itself. Or maybe scale on the probe.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

It is not uncommon to have faults on / in electronic components subject to temperature changes, even the heat generated by the component can cause problems with soldered joints and PCB's Problem is it is an absolute PIG of a job to find out where the problem lies particularly intermittent ones.


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## heirborn (Apr 3, 2020)

so hypothetically if you wanted a trouble free setup would you have to go down the lever / hand pull route?


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

I do not think there is such a thing as a 'trouble free set up'. Many / most machines have varying amounts of electronics in them.

Coffee machines can be likened to cars, the more electronics you have the greater the potential for mystifying problems and expense .Electronic components = ££££  :exit:


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

heirborn said:


> so hypothetically if you wanted a trouble free setup would you have to go down the lever / hand pull route?


 Well no. Faults are rare. Some levers have pumps that fill boilers. You mean machines free from electronics like the flare?

Your issue was the auto fill solenoid wasn't closing. Why that was is likely a bad connection to or in the gicar or just a faulty solenoid. Since bb have replaced the gicar I'm guessing the former but then again they previously sent you an anti-vacuum valve based on your description of the problem...


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

My Minima was exactly the same. Steam boiler kept overfilling to the point water came out the steam wand. Also leaked on the counter top. May well have been a loose connection, but mine had the Gicar replaced and then when it still happened, the fault was thought to be the fill probe.

I loved the idea of mine, but based on the above I would say there is an inherent fault in these which ACS should probably look to adjust/remedy.


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## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

Hi it's very curious that the problem of overfilling appear only on machines sold in UK i don't know if the different voltage change something and only on few machines sold in different times, in any case replying to someone that have no problem if the steam boiler is off, i have to say that even is off nothing change because the switch turn on and off only the heating element the rest works as usual, i meant if the water level is lower the board turn on the pump to fill the boiler even if only the brew boiler is on. i don't know if the problem could be the water used also because on this board we cannot change the sensibility of the probe, but we have also received a machine back from BB with this problem and in our company unfortunately we have not found the problem. in any case we are still working on to find the cause and the solution.


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## brad73 (Apr 9, 2020)

I was literally coming to the forums to do some searching as I experienced the exact same issue this morning - and found this thread right near the top! A fine mist of water ejecting from the top of the service boiler, PID read 62C at the point it started leaking. I have only had mine for 4/5 weeks (and 1.5kg of espresso blends arrived yesterday!) and have already contacted BB. If I find anything new, I'll let you guys know!


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## heirborn (Apr 3, 2020)

I'm getting my machine back from BB tomorrow.

I had a video call with Martin who walked me through draining the steam boiler and re testing. 
we replaced one of the valves but the issue continued to happen.

it got sent back and the Gicar was swapped out for a new one and then Martin sent me a picture of what was the problem. Apparently it was dwarf that got stuck somewhere (maybe the solenoid?) I don't have enough knowledge to know just from the picture but I can find out where it was exactly and get back to you.

my machine was days old and had this problem from the start so award must have been stuck there when they drilled into the boiler for the various fittings etc.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

I was going to say, it could be a one off but the tapping was out. Knew I should of said it. You have it back and all is well.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

brad73 said:


> I was literally coming to the forums to do some searching as I experienced the exact same issue this morning - and found this thread right near the top! A fine mist of water ejecting from the top of the service boiler, PID read 62C at the point it started leaking. I have only had mine for 4/5 weeks (and 1.5kg of espresso blends arrived yesterday!) and have already contacted BB. If I find anything new, I'll let you guys know!
> 
> View attachment 39702


 Have you taken the top cover off yet?


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## brad73 (Apr 9, 2020)

Okay - minor update from my machine. I let it cool for half the day, then drained about 500ml from the hot tap (its a very slow trickle at room temp). Then, when I turned mine on again, it gurgled from 50C on the PID till around 100C, only a small amount of water on the top of the boiler. It was gurgling from the steel nut (with the little C-clip on top) - the second pic from the OP.

Its now been on at temp for 30 mins and is dry, no leaking at all. Maybe it was just a one-off overfill? I shall see over the coming days.

@Rob1, no i haven't removed the top cover, I have just been peeking through the slots with a torch. I'd rather not remove it at this early stage of owning it (though I would hope it wouldn't void the BB warranty to take it off?).


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## heirborn (Apr 3, 2020)

I had a similar issue. When the steam boiler is switched on the valve you described seals with pressure. It will leak 1-2 drops which is normal. The problem occurs when the steam boiler is off, and it just keeps filling and leaks out of the valve once it a full to the brim.

you should test it with the steam boiler off and see what happens but it could be a number of issues that cause it - faulty earth, a lose connection elsewhere, fill solenoid Gicar controller or maybe swarf like I had.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

heirborn said:


> I had a similar issue. When the steam boiler is switched on the valve you described seals with pressure. It will leak 1-2 drops which is normal. The problem occurs when the steam boiler is off, and it just keeps filling and leaks out of the valve once it a full to the brim.
> 
> you should test it with the steam boiler off and see what happens but it could be a number of issues that cause it - faulty earth, a lose connection elsewhere, fill solenoid Gicar controller or maybe swarf like I had.


This is interesting. There's someone with an ecm synchronika with the same issue, when the service boiler is off. On that machine though, the vaccum breaker outlet is diverted to he drip tray.

Edit: https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51750-synchronika-water-coming-out-of-valve-when-steam-boiler-not-enabled/

@stuartm


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

brad73 said:


> Okay - minor update from my machine. I let it cool for half the day, then drained about 500ml from the hot tap (its a very slow trickle at room temp). Then, when I turned mine on again, it gurgled from 50C on the PID till around 100C, only a small amount of water on the top of the boiler. It was gurgling from the steel nut (with the little C-clip on top) - the second pic from the OP.
> 
> Its now been on at temp for 30 mins and is dry, no leaking at all. Maybe it was just a one-off overfill? I shall see over the coming days.
> 
> @Rob1, no i haven't removed the top cover, I have just been peeking through the slots with a torch. I'd rather not remove it at this early stage of owning it (though I would hope it wouldn't void the BB warranty to take it off?).


 No it won't void your warranty.

You should always check any machine you buy for faults on arrival, especially if it has been shipped to you, and again a couple of weeks later for anything you might have missed. It shouldn't be difficult to take the cover off, let the machine come up to temp, and check under boilers and around fixtures for leaks. Some are very subtle and you might miss them even after an initial inspection. I had a very small leak from the autofill solenoid on my Expobar that just needed a little tightening, on my Beta Minima I had a tiny tear on the tubing from the OPV that would sweat water and eventually form droplets, and the fixture for the pressure gauge needed a little tighten on the brew boiler because it would sweat a bit of water as it was heating up, all things were missed despite an initial check but I caught them on a follow up.

Don't assume you have the same fault as others because you have the same symptom.

Just to check when you say the PID reads 62c are you sure that's the service boiler temp and not the brew boiler....i.e has the machine been on a while and then you've switched the service boiler on or have you walked up to a completely cold machine and switched it on with both boilers needing to heat up? The steel nut with a c clip is an anti vacuum valve, it is supposed to leak until 100c.

*DaveC outlined a few steps to follow to try to diagnose where the fault is in an earlier post. The idea is to check how much water you need to remove to trigger the autofill and then compare that to the amount you have to remove after simulating a few shots against the blind basket. *

I've seen the behaviour you described before i.e. a fine mist of water that sprays out and ends up on the cup warmer like you've pictured. It was caused by me overfilling the boiler manually and it just a leaked a little more violently than usual.

When you got the machine did you drain the service boiler and then rinse it out again a couple of times with tap water or whatever you're using?


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## brad73 (Apr 9, 2020)

Okay, so another update. I thought I had fixed the issue by draining some water from the service boiler when cold, then booting up again. It did indeed fix it (for the day) and I was able to steam milk without issue.

This morning however, when it switched on (both boilers engaged) it began to leak from the service boiler (from the silver nut it seemed - but quite a lot, not just a trickle).

I let it cool for a while, then switched it on (just the brew boiler) and after a few minutes high pressure water was leaking from the large brass nut/valve in the centre of the service boiler. Like, a lot of water...

Spoke to BB (great support team even through these times) and its going to RTB. They reckon they have a good idea of the issue already, so if i get more info I can update here for anyone else experiencing similar issues if it helps.

To answer Rob1, It was definitely the service boiler at 62C when the initial leak started, the brew boiler was a couple of degrees behind still. The greater amount of water leaking this morning scared me and I don't want to tinker (just yet). So repair under warranty it is. Back to being a peasant with an Aeropress for a while now...


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## paul whu (Sep 25, 2014)

I got this issue's sorted with thanks going to Martin (I think) at Bella Barista. He talked me through removing the sensor probe, giving it a really good clean even though it looked spotless and hey presto it worked.

Until this morning anyway. The A7 code is back so I guess I'll have to reach for the spanners again.

Is it possible for the probe to be faulty I wonder?


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Could it be a hard water problem Paul ? =scaling the probe ?


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

paul whu said:


> I got this issue's sorted with thanks going to Martin (I think) at Bella Barista. He talked me through removing the sensor probe, giving it a really good clean even though it looked spotless and hey presto it worked.
> 
> Until this morning anyway. The A7 code is back so I guess I'll have to reach for the spanners again.
> 
> Is it possible for the probe to be faulty I wonder?


 For how many days has it been working before the error code appeared?

As El Carajillo mentioned if scaling is the reason for that and you are using hard water (I know you are not just assuming at the moment) it could reduce the probe continuity over a week time. This however assumes very hard water being used.

Is it possible to get a new probe and see whether the issue re-appears?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Did you flush and gave the boiler a light descale after you removed the probe? Or did you just clean the probe and stick it back in. It's easily possible to get scaling in service boilers even if you feed it water that is non-scaling.


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## paul whu (Sep 25, 2014)

Just came home from work. Water all over the surface and the sockets tripped.

Removed the probe, soaked it in lemon juice while I made a filter (despite not a shred of visual evidence of scale), scrubbed and scraped it like a man possessed.

Popped it back together, drained off some water (pint?) pump came on and all seems well for now.

In answer to Frank I have only ever used Ashbeck so I would be surprised if I need a descale. Having said that I intend to do one at the weekend if i can find the time. I wouldn't allow Gloucestershire water into my machine as it's pretty hard.

I have never descaled this machine as I deemed it unnecessary. Last time I did it (different beast) I dissolved a load of citric acid into water and fed it into the boiler, left it overnight and basically flushed it out the next day. Does that sound correct?

It is a concern to me that this appears to be a common problem with the Minima. I have been very happy with everything else to do with the machine and have felt that it easily lived up to the reviews. I don't want to have to tinker with it every few weeks however.

Really appreciate all your opinions. Without them I would be feeling well out of my comfort zone. Many thanks,


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Ashbeck will scale if you steam and just let the boiler refill. Anything with minerals + bicarbonates will eventually concentrate as you steam and scale unless you drain the boiler and fill it with fresh water when/before it gets to that point.

Having said that it doesn't sound like it's caused by scale (you'd be able to see and feel it). Could be something getting into the solenoid as in the other case or a wire that rattles loose which would explain the intermittency... Something getting into the solenoid could also be intermittent...


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Ok, I've read back through the thread and I have to say you're probably better off sending it back to BB so they can deal with it. At the very least turn it off and if you must turn it on don't leave it unattended, and definitely don't leave it on a timer with the service boiler set to come on (it shouldn't be left on even if there isn't a fault).

I can't find any actual description from you about the problem or the diagnostic steps you've taken. I did ask for them way back when you first had this issue.

Is it leaking from the anti-vacuum valve (silver flat fixture)?

Is it leaking from the over pressure valve (large brass thing in the middle)?

Both?

Does it leak only when the service boiler is on?

You've drained water and seen that the leak stops. Have you measured the volume/weight and compared the amount you get is consistent? E.G You drain water until the autofill kicks in, get X amount, let the boiler refill, drain again check weight, repeat. Have you then pulled multiple shots against a blind filter and drained the service boiler again to check you are getting the same amount of water as the previous two/three times? (the amounts won't be exactly the same)

If you do get more water out after pulling multiple shots against a blind filter the solenoid isn't sealing. If you don't it is sealing (at least sometimes) and the problem is likely the probe/wiring. If you've checked the wiring and it's ok and you've checked all connections are good and can't be jiggled loose then then the solenoid could be sticking sometimes. It could be faulty or there could be something floating around that's getting worked in and out of the valve. The only other diagnostic I can think of is to check the wiring, terminals, connections for pinching, shorts, corrosion, moisture, debris....anything off basically.

If you aren't comfortable doing that then send it to BB and get it done under warranty.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

When I was using (good) bottled water I still had scaling AND particularly on the probe.

When viewed through a hand lens it was possible to see miniscule. pitting on the probe, cleaning with fine wire wool helped but not complete cure.

I do wonder if the probe material has been changed and is more prone to scaling / corrosion ??

I changed mine by making a new probe with a length of 3/ 32" stainless steel welding rod.


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## paul whu (Sep 25, 2014)

It's happened again. It's going to keep happening I feel.

I'm going to contact Bella Barista. It appears to be a flaw in the design. Not happy with the situation at all.....

6am and no espresso. Brilliant.


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## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

Hi guys I would like to know who is the one that have the problem of over filling all the time and never find the solution. I want to bring back the machine and look closer at the problem sending another machine. I think that it's the fast solution to solve the problem once I have found a problem everybody will have a machine repaired or replaced. Doing that with your distributor will not fix the problem. Pm please. 
thanks

Paolo


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

paul whu said:


> Just came home from work. Water all over the surface and the sockets tripped.
> 
> Removed the probe, soaked it in lemon juice while I made a filter (despite not a shred of visual evidence of scale), scrubbed and scraped it like a man possessed.
> 
> ...


 If it's any consolation I descaled mine with diluted citric acid and then flushed everything a good few times. I haven't had any more spitting of water out of the pressure stat valve so maybe it was to do with scale on the level probe (I can only assume it was due to overfilling).

I also can't say that my temperature overshoot to 136 deg.C has come back. It's hit maybe 128 max. in recent weeks.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

paul whu said:


> It's happened again. It's going to keep happening I feel.
> 
> I'm going to contact Bella Barista. It appears to be a flaw in the design. Not happy with the situation at all.....
> 
> 6am and no espresso. Brilliant.


 Well yes, it will keep happening when you don't do anything to solve the problem.

It isn't a design flaw it's a faulty part or fault in manufacturing. A 'design flaw' would mean that every machine has this problem and that isn't the case.

Hopefully you saw Paolo's post above.


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## paul whu (Sep 25, 2014)

Rob1 said:


> Well yes, it will keep happening when you don't do anything to solve the problem.
> 
> It isn't a design flaw it's a faulty part or fault in manufacturing. A 'design flaw' would mean that every machine has this problem and that isn't the case.
> 
> Hopefully you saw Paolo's post above.


 Hmmmm. Not feeling the love with that probe. It's going wrong here and there for whatever reason.

What are you suggesting I do about it Rob? Other than keep removing it and cleaning it that is?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

paul whu said:


> Hmmmm. Not feeling the love with that probe. It's going wrong here and there for whatever reason.
> What are you suggesting I do about it Rob? Other than keep removing it and cleaning it that is?


Paolo said above he would swap a machine for a new one so he could understand what going on? Did you see his post above?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

paul whu said:


> Hmmmm. Not feeling the love with that probe. It's going wrong here and there for whatever reason.
> 
> What are you suggesting I do about it Rob? Other than keep removing it and cleaning it that is?


 I've already suggested a number of things, I don't know if you've done any of them.

Paolo wants you to send it back to ACS for examination and in exchange for a new machine so I would suggest you take the easy and constructive option and send him a PM to organise it.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Send it it back to BB not Acs, its costs Paolo a bit. BB are really good and they can diagnose the problem.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Jony said:


> Send it it back to BB not Acs, its costs Paolo a bit. BB are really good and they can diagnose the problem.


Please read Paolo's last two sentences from his post above, quoted below:



Paolo_Cortese said:


> Hi guys I would like to know who is the one that have the problem of over filling all the time and never find the solution. I want to bring back the machine and look closer at the problem sending another machine. I think that it's the fast solution to solve the problem once I have found a problem everybody will have a machine repaired or replaced. Doing that with your distributor will not fix the problem. Pm please.
> thanks
> Paolo


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## paul whu (Sep 25, 2014)

I'm getting mixed messages now.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

paul whu said:


> I'm getting mixed messages now.


 Paolo offered you a brand new machine for your faulty one for ultimate solution of the problem and diagnostics back in Italy.

What is it not to like?


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## paul whu (Sep 25, 2014)

John Yossarian said:


> Paolo offered you a brand new machine for your faulty one for ultimate solution of the problem and diagnostics back in Italy.
> 
> What is it not to like?


 You misunderstand!!!

One person says deal with Paulo and another says to deal with BB. They are the mixed messages!!

I have messaged Paulo and will probably hear from him soon. I'm not complaining about the offer at all.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

paul whu said:


> You misunderstand!!!
> One person says deal with Paulo and another says to deal with BB. They are the mixed messages!!
> I have messaged Paulo and will probably hear from him soon. I'm not complaining about the offer at all.


I'm sorry, the misunderstanding is yours.

- Paolo, from ACS, himself, is asking you to send the machine he makes back to him for a replacement so he can study your machine and try to figure out what's going wrong.

- Jony, an ordinary forum member, suggests otherwise.

Have a think.... 

On the positive, I'm glad you have engaged with Paolo and hopefully the mystery is over soon!

Good luck.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Just a guy eh, well BB sorted the last broken one out, you bought it it from BB send it back BB its under warranty unless you bought it direct from Acs which I did so nothing to do with BB.

To put it bluntly why should he even send you a new machine. If it it was direct then Paolo always does the right thing, I shipped mine back after 4/5 months. Not to difficult to work out.


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

"Jony, an ordinary forum member" no ways "forum treasure" more like


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Cheers knew you cared,😜


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

paul whu said:


> You misunderstand!!!
> 
> One person says deal with Paulo and another says to deal with BB. They are the mixed messages!!
> 
> I have messaged Paulo and will probably hear from him soon. I'm not complaining about the offer at all.


 Sorry for not getting you.

Wish you luck for sorting it out.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Jony said:


> Just a guy eh, well BB sorted the last broken one out, you bought it it from BB send it back BB its under warranty unless you bought it direct from Acs which I did so nothing to do with BB.
> 
> To put it bluntly why should he even send you a new machine. If it it was direct then Paolo always does the right thing, I shipped mine back after 4/5 months. Not to difficult to work out.


Hey Jony, no offence there. I mean an ordinary forum member like you and me and most of us, as opposed to Paolo, also a forum member, but not an ordinary one, as he works at ACS.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Seems like I have the same problem, advised to email ACS (paolo), does anyone have a current email address please.

Ian


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Paolo_Cortese ^^^^


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Eyedee said:


> Seems like I have the same problem, advised to email ACS (paolo), does anyone have a current email address please.
> 
> Ian


 PM him here.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Rob1 said:


> PM him here.


 Thanks I've done that, do you think it is ok to keep using the machine

Ian


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Eyedee said:


> Thanks I've done that, do you think it is ok to keep using the machine
> 
> Ian


 No probably not, not if it's overfilling and leaking.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Just a little update from me, PM sent to Paolo but no reply as yet. I have used the machine twice daily since Friday with no problems. I have not heard the autofill come in at all so today AFTER I finished making drinks, with some trepidation I drained some hot water. After about 250ml the autofill kicked in and stopped itself. I used the steam wand and all appeared normal. Drained a further 250ml, autofill kicked in and stopped itself.

Now I'm at a loss and the only conclusion is that intermittent faults are a pig to diagnose.

Ian


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## DanW (Jul 12, 2019)

Eyedee said:


> Just a little update from me, PM sent to Paolo but no reply as yet. I have used the machine twice daily since Friday with no problems. I have not heard the autofill come in at all so today AFTER I finished making drinks, with some trepidation I drained some hot water. After about 250ml the autofill kicked in and stopped itself. I used the steam wand and all appeared normal. Drained a further 250ml, autofill kicked in and stopped itself.
> 
> Now I'm at a loss and the only conclusion is that intermittent faults are a pig to diagnose.
> 
> Ian


 Having lived with this for almost year now and as a daily user I have the issue occur maybe only once every few weeks. I have a theory that it is more likely to happen in the following use case: Machine is left on for a long period, Machine is turned off, on the next power up during the initial heat up of the service boiler something glitches out and the pump is triggered on and runs way beyond what is required to meet the fill level.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Forward your thoughts to @ Paolo , any bits of information may help him find what is causing the 'glitch'.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Check the ground wire on the service boiler itself, another user found that to be the problem. Could be coming loose from vibration or thermal expansion.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I also think it's a software issue, more info Paolo gets the better. Or perhaps an undocumented change to firmware or hardware by Gicar.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

For reference to @Rob1's post above:



radudanutco said:


> I had a rather identical problem with the autofill sensor: the grounding lead on the coffe boiler cover was weak fastened!
> 
> well, there are some pictures here, commented in english; the rest is not, sorry...
> 
> https://www.espressoman.ro/forum/Thread-ACS-Minima-sau-Lelit-Mara-X-Elizabeth?pid=137272#pid137272


https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/52326-acs-minma-pump-running/?do=embed&comment=747091&embedComment=747091&embedDo=findComment

It's hard to keep information in one place... 😞


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

I've sent my little update to Paolo as suggested.

Ian


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Also found this on the home barista thread searching for internal images of the pump....

https://www.home-barista.com/repairs/acs-minima-dualboiler-leaking-problem-on-first-day-t61332-10.html

Details grounding problem as a screw that holding the grounding wire that couldn't be tightened enough.


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## Keith1 (Jun 22, 2020)

I am almost there on pushing the buy button on an ACS Minima but must say that this thread has made me nervous. I am an engineer who is familliar with the repair of domestic appliances so while I find the issues above interesting I would hope not to have to open up and start fault diagnosis on a brand new machine when I would rather be pulling (and drinking) shots. Should I be concerned? Should I wait or buy? Interested to hear people's opinions on this.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Keith1 said:


> I am almost there on pushing the buy button on an ACS Minima but must say that this thread has made me nervous. I am an engineer who is familliar with the repair of domestic appliances so while I find the issues above interesting I would hope not to have to open up and start fault diagnosis on a brand new machine when I would rather be pulling (and drinking) shots. Should I be concerned? Should I wait or buy? Interested to hear people's opinions on this.


 Well don't buy yet. Where are you based? BB are currently out of stock. I'm not sure there are any other retailers in the UK aside from the dreaded coffee italia.

It seems likely the issue described is as a grounding problem with the boiler. Whether it has been confirmed and fixed or not is another issue @Paolo_Cortese.

Potentially it only affected a small batch that were sent to BB but unknown right now.


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## Keith1 (Jun 22, 2020)

@Rob1Thanks for the reply. I am based in Warsaw in Poland (but I am English). One of the specialist retailers over here has one in stock, no idea when it would have been built. The boiler grounding would make sense. But I note that BB has Gicar units for this machine listed under spares but they are also out of stock, which if they ever had any is not good news at this stage of the product lifespan.

Still undecided as in all other ways the machine is just what I am looking for but have this fear of the machine spending more time with DHL back and forth to Italy than being used in my kitchen.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Keith1 said:


> @Rob1Thanks for the reply. I am based in Warsaw in Poland (but I am English). One of the specialist retailers over here has one in stock, no idea when it would have been built. The boiler grounding would make sense. But I note that BB has Gicar units for this machine listed under spares but they are also out of stock, which if they ever had any is not good news at this stage of the product lifespan.
> 
> Still undecided as in all other ways the machine is just what I am looking for but have this fear of the machine spending more time with DHL back and forth to Italy than being used in my kitchen.


 Don't worry about the gicar stock thing. The parts used are top quality it just seems there's been an issue with a batch somewhere. I don't think bb ever had stock available for purchase. The gicar box in particular is very high quality.

Haven't had a problem with my beta and most people have never had a problem with theirs.

As I said just wait for the investigation to be complete.

If you're comfortable with a parts only warranty buy direct to be sure you get up to date stock or just confirm with the retailer the machines have been built after this issue is found and resolved at the factory or otherwise aren't affected.

Edit: for all I know the fault is with the gicar box but what are you going to do, avoid all machines with a gicar? You'd be avoiding pretty much everything 'prosumer'.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I had a Profitec P700. Finest german engineering... 8 months later it develops a fault on the water tank level sensor. Finds out it's the Gicar box. It got replaced, and problem solved.

Like Rob1 says... don't worry about it, as long as you have a retailer who supports you in case things go wrong, really, don't worry about it.


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## Keith1 (Jun 22, 2020)

Thanks Guys, I will sit and watch how things work out. Have no particular issues with Gicar in general, was just wondering if that's where the batch problem lies as there is not much else to have a batch problem with as unless I am mistaken its the only "active" component in the machine, lets hope its wiring or similar (which could even be popping the Gicar).

I live in Warsaw in Poland, and have done so for 20 years or so and making sure I have a retailer that supports me is probably not an option, in markets like high end espresso machines where there is not much competittion (so far I have only found one ACS stockist in Poland) it is my experience that once they have your money in the bank you are pretty much on your own, the principle of good service leading to more business through reputation just does not work in the niche product market over here.

That is one reason for my caution, even considering buying from BB when back in stock as shipping UK-Poland is fast and not that expensive so maybe better to go that route.

Just thought I should add that it seems to be a real shame that an early niggly problem has occurred on what looks to be a good machine with a good design philosophy, just wondering if leaving the steam boiler pressure guage off was such a good idea given the issues!


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## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

Keith1 said:


> Thanks Guys, I will sit and watch how things work out. Have no particular issues with Gicar in general, was just wondering if that's where the batch problem lies as there is not much else to have a batch problem with as unless I am mistaken its the only "active" component in the machine, lets hope its wiring or similar (which could even be popping the Gicar).
> 
> I live in Warsaw in Poland, and have done so for 20 years or so and making sure I have a retailer that supports me is probably not an option, in markets like high end espresso machines where there is not much competittion (so far I have only found one ACS stockist in Poland) it is my experience that once they have your money in the bank you are pretty much on your own, the principle of good service leading to more business through reputation just does not work in the niche product market over here.
> 
> That is one reason for my caution, even considering buying from BB when back in stock as shipping UK-Poland is fast and not that expensive so maybe better to go that route.


 Just a thought. I would drop BB a line I enquired a week or so ago it seemed perhaps a long delay for restocking the Minima. See if timing fits in the your plans


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## Keith1 (Jun 22, 2020)

@Border_all Thanks, I will probably do that but not surprised about the wait given the problems with a batch of machines and the wider problems we are living through! That is another reason I am seriously considering snapping up the machine in stock over here and taking the risk.


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## PeterJG57 (Apr 22, 2020)

Anyone know whether the steam boiler issue has been bottomed and the issue resolved?


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Once again this issue raises its nasty head, steam boiler overfilling and when I steam half a jug of milk it multiplies to a full jug before I've actually reached temperature.

Did anyone ever find an answer to this.

Ian


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Eyedee said:


> and when I steam half a jug of milk it multiplies to a full jug before I've actually reached temperature.


 I don't think this is related, surely? My machine is working perfectly - albeit not a Minima, but just for the example - and this happens to me. Steaming half a jug of milk, of whichever size, has always been tricky in my experience. The milk pretty much heats up really quickly. Best to have the appropriate size jug for better results.

Unless... you mean that it has dumped water in the jug - rather than air?



> before* I've *actually reached temperature.


 PS: Joke alert: I hope *your* temperature is a constant 36.5C and *you personally* don't have to reach temperature first thing in the morning 😉


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Overfilling cause has been solved https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vesuvius/minima-leak-pump-overfilling-t318-s60.html

*As for your "problem" it needs some clearer tests to ensure it is actually overfilling and the possible causes.*

1. Does it autofill correctly, test by drawing small amounts of water and waiting for it to autofill. Then see if it autofills at approximately the same amounts of water drawn each time.

2. Is the time of autofill broadly the same (obviously if you have taken lots of water out in one go, vs 30ml, it won't be

3. Could the autofill solenoid be leaking, is the machine overfilling after running against a blind filter (do test 1 which tells you what should come out, vs what comes out after 60s against a blind filter)

4. Do you use good quality water

5. If it's overfilling does water ever come out of the vacuum breaker and pool under the machine or in the bottom of the case as the service boiler is warming up.. you will see this almost immediately (within 1m) if the service boiler is full

6. is the steam overly wet, e,g, is water coming out at the same time

7. If you drain the contents of the service boiler, how much do you get out. (machine on fully hot, switch off, open water tap, collect and measure water). Compare this with another owner.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I don't think this is related, surely? My machine is working perfectly - albeit not a Minima, but just for the example - and this happens to me. Steaming half a jug of milk, of whichever size, has always been tricky in my experience. The milk pretty much heats up really quickly. Best to have the appropriate size jug for better results.
> 
> Unless... you mean that it has dumped water in the jug - rather than air?
> 
> PS: Joke alert: I hope *your* temperature is a constant 36.5C and *you personally* don't have to reach temperature first thing in the morning 😉


 LMAO, in all seriousness, I have the correct sized jug and I am aware of the steaming characteristics of milk


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

DavecUK said:


> Overfilling cause has been solved https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vesuvius/minima-leak-pump-overfilling-t318-s60.html
> 
> *As for your "problem" it needs some clearer tests to ensure it is actually overfilling and the possible causes.*
> 
> ...


 Dave I can answer some of these immediately, the autofill time was usually 9 to 10 seconds, now more like 20to 25 seconds, water is just Yorkshire water which is extremely soft, yes the steam is very wet and I can hear pulsing when steaming which I take to be water. No leaks have been found.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Contents of steam boiler, when drained as suggested gives 1450ml.

Ian


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

*I'd do all the tests very carefully and precisely*

e.g. If an autofill starts and stops consistently e.g. every 9-10 s, it usually indicates that side of the system is working fine.

So from what you have told me, your autofill system is fine electronically... logically if it always autofills for the same time, what's the problem. of course If sometimes it fills for much longer and shorter with no reason, then you might have a problem. Or if it's filling, then filling, then filling and your not using water.

You have to do the tests properly to get the right diagnostics. "hearing" pulsing when steaming, etc... it's all too vague.

I don't want to suggest something that's a pure guess and costs you lots of money...be also really nice to know how old the machine is...is it new, a month old 2 years old.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Until Monday when the machine was first switched on it would alway autofill in the region of 10 sconds then not fill again until it was in use. Now when first switched on it autofills for 20 seconds, then it seems to randomly activate the pump for different time periods even though I'm not using it.

The pulsing is when water mixed with steam is coming out of the steam wand.

The machine was purchased from BB April 2019


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Eyedee said:


> Until Monday when the machine was first switched on it would alway autofill in the region of 10 sconds then not fill again until it was in use. Now when first switched on it autofills for 20 seconds, then it seems to randomly activate the pump for different time periods even though I'm not using it.
> 
> The pulsing is when water mixed with steam is coming out of the steam wand.
> 
> The machine was purchased from BB April 2019


 OK well based on the information provided so far, I don't have any idea, but it's under warranty (I think BB is 2 years), so the best thing to do would be to contact Bella Barista, detail the fault and do any tests they recommend.

The random activation of the pump could be a vacuum breaker leak, or other slow leak, if there's no water under the machine, possibly from the steam side. It "might" be some wierd fault in the autofill box, it "might" be some random bad connection of the probe wires for some reason. Trouble is I'm getting the information piecemeal, it's still a bit vague, the boiler fill level sounds fine? So I really don't know.

I'd still recommend you complete all 7 checks carefully (especially number 1. draw just 10 ml each time and wait a bit to see if it autofills), note down the results against each check and contact Bella Barista with those results....see what they recommend


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Sorry for being vague and thanks for your patience.

Always difficult to explain and diagnose technical faults but thanks for your efforts to help.

Ian


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Just for interest (that is if anyone is interested), I emptied the boiler and measured the contents. Took the casing off and inspected the machine, with nothing looking amiss I refitted the outer casing. Filled the water reservoir, let the boiler fill and brought the machine up to temperature, so far so good.

Following instructions I drained small amounts of water and found that 30ml seemed to be the optimum before the pump actuated giving an average 5 second fill time.

Now when I use the steam wand no water/steam appears just the steam

Conclusion: Intermittent fault which as of now seems to have cleared without any remedil action.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Eyedee said:


> Just for interest (that is if anyone is interested), I emptied the boiler and measured the contents. Took the casing off and inspected the machine, with nothing looking amiss I refitted the outer casing. Filled the water reservoir, let the boiler fill and brought the machine up to temperature, so far so good.
> 
> Following instructions I drained small amounts of water and found that 30ml seemed to be the optimum before the pump actuated giving an average 5 second fill time.
> 
> ...


 Check out the link to the support forum...you may want to put some spacers under the gicar and check those wires.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

DavecUK said:


> Check out the link to the support forum...you may want to put some spacers under the gicar and check those wires.


 Could you point me towards this Gicar please as I don't know where to find it from the pics online.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

it's all in this thread, pages 1 and 2, but useful info and photos in the rest.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vesuvius/minima-leak-pump-overfilling-t318.html


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)




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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

Is the screen meant to be like that or have I got it upside down?


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

Yep, upside down


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)




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## DanW (Jul 12, 2019)

As the original poster of this thread I wanted to provide the update that I have followed the advice linked by DaveC and done the GICAR spacer modification.

I did this 2 days ago and all I can say is, so far so good as the boiler hasn't overfilled since. The problem always was very intermittent so I'm not entirely confident this has resolved it but I am optimistic.

One note I would add for anyone doing this modification is that I had a bit of trouble getting the water tank surround back in as the GICAR had moved out a little during the process and its all a very tight fit. This was resolved by re-loosening and then tightening the bottom GICAR nut whilst providing a bit of lateral pressure on the GICAR to make the space.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

if it does come back it's possible there is a broken wire....which can actually be easily repaired because it's not super resistance sensitive or a special metal or anything. If you find there is a break and can locate it by moving the wire and see if it connects or not, you can cut, resolder and heat shrink. Or simply get a new wire connector i suppose.


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## DanW (Jul 12, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> if it does come back it's possible there is a broken wire....which can actually be easily repaired because it's not super resistance sensitive or a special metal or anything. If you find there is a break and can locate it by moving the wire and see if it connects or not, you can cut, resolder and heat shrink. Or simply get a new wire connector i suppose.


 Thanks for the tip Dave, I'll certainly try that if the issue recurs, fingers crossed it won't.


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## Acorn (Jul 10, 2021)

Apologies for opening up old wounds, but...I've been keeping a keen eye on the ACS Minima topics on here and this seems to be the biggie in terms of issues reported. I'd like to hear from more people whether their issues with the boiler leaking/overfilling have been resolved and if so how?

@DanW thanks for the update, I understand your issue was the same as @DavecUK quoted in the Vesuvio thread: Gicar wires being squashed. Adding a spacer to the Gicar has resolved this. ACS are aware of this issue and have applied preventative measures. Please let me know if this is inaccurate.

Others who have posted in this thread with similar symptoms, please update if you can:
@evanr, @paul whu, @Cooffe, @heirborn, @np123, @brad73, @Eyedee

Thanks in advance, I'm sure there are many other Minima hopefuls lurking on here who would be interested in hearing the outcomes!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Acorn said:


> Adding a spacer to the Gicar has resolved this. ACS are aware of this issue and have applied preventative measures. Please let me know if this is inaccurate.


 As far as I know the wires being pinched or broken was always the issue regarding the overfilling and has been resolved simply by adding a spacer, yes

It's worth noting many of the issues reported (maybe not in this thread) were related to Beta machines which had issues with the seal provided by the blanking plugs, as a well as a number on production machines caused by the issue above. Mine is a beta and has never had an issue with leaks or overfilling, but for all I know mine could be a beta 2.0 and have the coated bolts with sealant and I could have just got lucky with the wire placement.


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## Acorn (Jul 10, 2021)

Thanks for confirming that, Rob. I take your point on the beta machines - their purpose in life is to flush out any issues before production. They are advertised (and priced) as such. But at least some of the people posting on here bought through Bella Barista, so got the real thing. Let's see if the others can chime in with an update. If the cable was really the only issue affecting a significant number of users (there will always be _some_ faults, on any machine), then happy days.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Acorn Welcome to the forum.


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## Acorn (Jul 10, 2021)

Thanks @DavecUK, long time lurker, first time poster 😄


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Acorn It's worth pointing out that there are many machines other than the Minima to choose from and a good turnover of used machines (lets call them pre-loved). The key things about a major purchase, *is to buy the right type of machine for your needs, which we actually know nothing about, including what your existing machine and grinder is?* Meeting your own personal standards for reliability is really a secondary decision

Then you can concentrate on any short list you come up with, or is recommended to you by others.


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## Acorn (Jul 10, 2021)

Rest assured I have a list! 😆 I didn't want to hijack a technical topic thread for my personal considerations, but I can give you the summary. Happy to split into a fresh topic if that's more suitable. I think this will all sound very familiar:

Current setup: Gaggia Classic with PID + Eureka Mignon

Usage: 2-3 milk based drinks a day, almost never more than 1 at a time though

Kitchen space is very limited, the Gaggia is obviously tiny (20cm wide) so any upgrade would require a bit of rejigging. But footprint (mostly width) is definitely one of the main constraints. The other one is steam. We have a Linea Mini at work and it has sort of ruined the Gaggia for me in that respect haha! Besides steam power, I would ideally steam while pulling a shot. Espresso-wise, I am looking for consistency first, experimentation second. In that sense, I am not worried about the quality of espresso from any of the machines on my short-list. If they are extendable/moddable with flow paddles and whatnot, that's a nice to have but I might never get to that level. Budget: £1500ish. If I found the perfect solution and it was £1800, I'm sure I could get there. Heck, if I had a massive kitchen I would already have a savings pot called "Linea Mini".

So that leads me to a short-list with all the usual suspects:
- Lelit MaraX. Great size (22cm width), not so great on the steam. Using it in traditional HX "pumpkin" mode to get better steam seems like a mistake given the magic Lelit have worked on the temp control in the group.

- ACS Minima. Dual boiler and ALL THE STEAM. Relatively compact at 27cm wide.

- Profitec 300. 25.5cm wide, dual boiler, "well-proven design" (it's old). Meh on the steam.

- Lelit Elizabeth. Solid spec wise, but at 31cm wide the shape of it doesn't work in my current kitchen setup. If I could find the space, I would be throwing the Bianca in the mix here too.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Acorn said:


> Using it in traditional HX "pumpkin" mode to get better steam


 The MaraX has a steam boost capability which you can wake after a shot. Isn't this good for your needs? Granted there were some issues reported earlier in the year but I believe these have been fixed. (I may well be wrong).


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## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

here we go 😇

sorry if i'm not reply to the forum lastly i'm bit busy but more nervous that busy.

About the overfilling we have found a problem several months ago changing the earth position from brew boiler to the frame. in any case when someone have a problem send always an email to my company, personally i receive hundred of email daily and sometime i think to reply later but i forgot. This moment is very critical due of post Covid, find the parts is very difficult not only for me and not only in this market.

sorry if i miss some reply.

Paolo


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

I've had a Minima since January this year and haven't had any issues so far. You can steam and brew at the same time without problem, although if you're only making one drink at a time is it really required?

I don't think you can steam and brew consistently with the other machines; maybe others can comment.

Even if the Minima service boiler fills (rarely happens) during steaming it doesn't really skip a beat. Milk texture/microfoam is excellent. With the 3 hole tip (no longer included) you can steam around 180ml of milk in under 20 seconds.

I ruled out the MaraX as I wanted temperature stability over time and the ability to make back to back milk drinks. I also ruled out the Elizabeth as I preferred the bigger boilers on the Minima and solenoid E61.

The Minima pump can be noisy though.

The Bianca looks a great machine, can't really go wrong.


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## Acorn (Jul 10, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The MaraX has a steam boost capability which you can wake after a shot. Isn't this good for your needs? Granted there were some issues reported earlier in the year but I believe these have been fixed. (I may well be wrong).


 As @HVL87 commented, maybe I'm being daft wanting to do it all at the same time. The "steam kick" after the shot would be the way to do it, I agree. I need to go back and check how that works exactly, how long it takes etc. The other thing I need to check is what happens if you wake the boiler before you pull the shot. It's been described on here, also in the review. Because it's theoretically possible to have high boiler pressure while pulling the shot, depending on where in the cycle you happen to catch it. But if you end up messing up the group temp that way, then you're working against the design.



Paolo_Cortese said:


> here we go 😇
> 
> sorry if i'm not reply to the forum lastly i'm bit busy but more nervous that busy.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for replying, @Paolo_Cortese! We know you have a day job and can't spend all your time on the forum 😄 It seems clear then that this boiler overfilling issue is resolved and we can close it off. Reading the thread from fresh it did not end with everyone saying "my machine is fixed" so I thought it needed some resolution. I did notice your activity on here -- offers to speak to people directly and send replacement machines from Italy -- your commitment to the cause was never in question!



HVL87 said:


> I've had a Minima since January this year and haven't had any issues so far. You can steam and brew at the same time without problem, although if you're only making one drink at a time is it really required?


 Yes, admittedly this is me being a bit spoiled/daft: I make very few drinks, yet I want to do everything at the same time and with all the steam power in the world. It's a "want" more than a "need", of course. The coffee won't taste any worse for it. Feel free to call me out on unrealistic requirements! 😝


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Acorn said:


> But if you end up messing up the group temp that way, then you're working against the design.


 If you are really concerned about precise group temperature & brew temperature, I strongly advise you not to go with the MaraX, let alone any other HX machine.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Acorn said:


> yet I want to do everything at the same time and with all the steam power in the world. I


 Most machines - including ECM & Profitec - now operate with boilers heaters working alternating with some sort of priority for the brew boiler. What that means is that, if you steam/brew at the same time, the steam boiler will suffer.

I'm not sure how the Bianca works - whether it alternates the heating elements in a clever way using the Lelit Control Centre (The Elizabeth does something like that) or whether it simply uses both heaters in parallel - The ideal situation in Europe.

My understanding is that the Minima and the Vesuvius operate with the boilers in parallel - so totally independent from each other - at least in the European configuration. So you can be sure to brew and steam at the same time - if that's what you want - without any loss of performance.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Acorn said:


> yet I want to do everything at the same time and with all the steam power in the world. It's a "want" more than a "need", of course. The coffee won't taste any worse for it. Feel free to call me out on unrealistic requirements! 😝


 Haha, I had the same want and the Minima pretty much delivers. Maybe not all the steam power in the world but most definitely more than enough 😄


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## Acorn (Jul 10, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If you are really concerned about precise group temperature & brew temperature, I strongly advise you not to go with the MaraX, let alone any other HX machine.


 I'm surprised you put it that bluntly! From what I understood from DaveC's review and James Hoffman's Scace2 test is that the MaraX actually consistently hits the target temp very well. I'm no HX expert but from what I can gather it really can't be lumped in with other HX machines in terms of brew temp accuracy. I agree it's not sub 1-deg, but I don't rate my taste buds highly enough to think that I would notice.



MediumRoastSteam said:


> Most machines - including ECM & Profitec - now operate with boilers heaters working alternating with some sort of priority for the brew boiler. What that means is that, if you steam/brew at the same time, the steam boiler will suffer.
> 
> I'm not sure how the Bianca works - whether it alternates the heating elements in a clever way using the Lelit Control Centre (The Elizabeth does something like that) or whether it simply uses both heaters in parallel - The ideal situation in Europe.
> 
> My understanding is that the Minima and the Vesuvius operate with the boilers in parallel - so totally independent from each other - at least in the European configuration. So you can be sure to brew and steam at the same time - if that's what you want - without any loss of performance.


 This is good info, thanks 👍 A friend recently bought an Elizabeth, lockdown wise I obviously haven't been able to go 'round to have a play with it but I'm planning to do that when circumstances allow. At the least it will provide a useful datapoint on the dual boiler front.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Acorn said:


> I'm surprised you put it that bluntly!


 That's why I used the word "*precise*" (precise group temperature & brew temperature) 👍

As per Dave's reviews and other tests, it manages its temperature very well - almost like a dual boiler and - but it's not a dual boiler machine. It's important to recognise that. And yes, on that front, the MaraX is on a class of its own. I don't dispute that.

The Elizabeth is a great machine. In the dual boiler world, however, I think the Minima is a superior machine. For me, the Elizabeth tick the boxes I want:
- Small footprint;
- Easy maintenance;
- Fast heat up time;
- Dual boiler.

I do keep looking at the Bianca though.... That paddle... Maybe my coffee will be better? #Upgraditus 😉


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## Acorn (Jul 10, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That's why I used the word "*precise*" (precise group temperature & brew temperature) 👍
> 
> As per Dave's reviews and other tests, it manages its temperature very well - almost like a dual boiler and - but it's not a dual boiler machine. It's important to recognise that. And yes, on that front, the MaraX is on a class of its own. I don't dispute that.


 Got your point, agreed 👍



MediumRoastSteam said:


> I do keep looking at the Bianca though.... That paddle... Maybe my coffee will be better? #Upgraditus 😉


 The lack of paddle is totally holding you back -- you're not realising your full potential! 😜


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