# A colleague from Poland, I am asking for help from sage SES878



## vivera1977 (Apr 5, 2021)

Witam, nazywam się Tomasz, jestem z Polski. Ponieważ nie mówić po angielsku, piszę i tłumaczę przez tłumaczenia. Myślę, że do pójdzie jakoś. 
Nie mamy zbyt zbyt wiele o Sage na forach kawowych w Polsce, więc jestem tu z wami.
Dwa tygodnie kupiłem temu kupiłem Sage Barista PRO SES878 i trudno mi zrobić pyszne espresso, zdaję sobie sprawę, że nie jest do kamii i uczę się z twojego forum i polskiego (zasady podobne). W tej chwili chwili czekam na podwójną płytę sabotażową z alli i wagą. Do tej pory, myślę, że straciłem 8kg kawy z lokalnej pieca. Kawa jak warzyłem do czasami jeden dzień i max 2 tygodnie. Miałem słodką kawę, czekoladę mleczną, brązowy cukier, migdały, orzech. Kawa wychodzi tylko kwaśne i cierpkie. Dlatego zacząłem mierzyć temperaturę w maszynie.

1. Pierwszy film pokazuje temperaturę zaraz po uruchomieniu maszyny, przytrzymuję przycisk i pierwsze zaparzanie jest zrobione, temperatura jest wysoka, a kiedy odpuszczam spadek temperatury, jest to zrozumiałe, ponieważ nie ma oporu.






2. Zrobiłem drugi film podobnie, ale dodałem duży pojedynczy sitko dolne i temperatura spada bo nie ma oporu.






3. W trzecim filmie stworzyłem opór, dając podwójny sitko dolne, a temperatura wydaje się dobra, aby pozostać do końca.






Jak myślisz, jak temperatury są ok? Co mówisz?


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Not sure the temperature is your main problem without knowing about the rest of the process:

What beans are you using? How old? What weight (in and out)? Brew time? Are you tamping properly?

The temperature is a bit high, I would suggest adjusting it (lower). Look in the Sage manual to see how to do this.


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## vivera1977 (Apr 5, 2021)

CocoLoco said:


> Not sure the temperature is your main problem without knowing about the rest of the process:
> 
> What beans are you using? How old? What weight (in and out)? Brew time? Are you tamping properly?
> 
> The temperature is a bit high, I would suggest adjusting it (lower). Look in the Sage manual to see how to do this.


 I am currently using 100% arabica blend beans, medium dark roasted, 1 week old, Brazil, Flavor - milk chocolate, brown sugar, almond, nut.
19g
5s + 25s
45g

More I mean to see if the temperature is ok. Is he broken?


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

vivera1977 said:


> Is he broken?


 No reason to think it's broken, just turn temperature on the machine down.

Grind finer too. You want a slower extraction. 45g is probably too much at this stage. 30 second overall is OK.

You should be doing the shot 'manually' not just pressing the button. Look in the Sage manual to see how to do this. That way you can be more precise.


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## vivera1977 (Apr 5, 2021)

CocoLoco said:


> No reason to think it's broken, just turn temperature on the machine down.
> 
> Grind finer too. You want a slower extraction. 45g is probably too much at this stage. 30 second overall is OK.
> 
> You should be doing the shot 'manually' not just pressing the button. Look in the Sage manual to see how to do this. That way you can be more precise.


 I make the shots by hand myself.

I now made quick temperature measurements on a double strainer, inserted the sensor and ran for the maximum time (the machine disconnects at 63s) and I obtained the individual temperatures.

97

97

96

96

94

a little high huh?


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

vivera1977 said:


> a little high huh?


 Yes a bit. I think it's supposed to be between 90c-96c, you are getting that, but I've seen 92c as the 'standard' roasters quote. Adjust the machine so the temperature is a bit lower and you are getting 92/3c.

But your problem is the output, 45g might be too much, you need to slow it down. It's hard to be definite as different beans like different amounts, but I'd aim for closer to 36g, so grind finer. Once you get closer you can start playing with it.


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## vivera1977 (Apr 5, 2021)

CocoLoco said:


> Yes a bit. I think it's supposed to be between 90c-96c, you are getting that, but I've seen 92c as the 'standard' roasters quote. Adjust the machine so the temperature is a bit lower and you are getting 92/3c.
> 
> But your problem is the output, 45g might be too much, you need to slow it down. It's hard to be definite as different beans like different amounts, but I'd aim for closer to 36g, so grind finer. Once you get closer you can start playing with it.


 Thank you for the conversation, I will try, I will lower the temperature to a minimum and grind finer. I will wait for the new scale and the alli double beater. I'll be having fun.

I do not close the topic, maybe someone will write something more. Nice. Thank you very much.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

vivera1977 said:


> Thank you for the conversation, I will try, I will lower the temperature to a minimum and grind finer. I will wait for the new scale and the alli double beater. I'll be having fun.
> 
> I do not close the topic, maybe someone will write something more. Nice. Thank you very much.


 No problem. One other thing, make sure you are using the 'single wall' basket, not the 'double wall'. So the large one (the double shot), but the thinner basket.

Good luck!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

You can't really measure brew water temperature like that. It needs one of these

https://www.espressoparts.com/products/scace-2-espresso-machine-thermofilter-temperature-pressure-device

The flow through them is set to be the same as basket full of grinds at the rates to suite espresso. If you keep repeating tests like you are things warm up and make the testing even more confusing - eg the portafilter in your case. Internal parts as well which can be a problem but it's easy to find out if that is the case. Make 3 on the trot and taste them. Does the 3rd taste totally different to the 1st. Don't rush between them, take the usual time and make sure grinds weight and preparation are the same on each.

The usual reason for problems with coffee are grinds preparation and what people aim to do - usually some dose of grinds and a time and ratio that they have read some where that produces perfect coffee. There is no such thing and figures have to be found by trying them and tasting.

First thing is dose of grinds and tamping. The grinds need to be level or have an even central heap before tamping. I'd suggest tamping at 10kg plus at least. Check that the grinds level is close to what the razor tool would leave. In some ways using it is a good idea.

Then try several grinds in to shots weights out and taste them. I suggest roughly 2, 3 and something in the middle. They needn't be exact and if say you are aiming at a 30 sec shots don't worry if you need to stop a shot manually between 25 and 35 sec. The main thing is that grinder setting has changed. This can give you an idea what happens to taste as this is changed. They might even indicate that a higher ratio is preferable. Longer times can also be interesting on these machines but including that adds too many variables to look at in one go. If you have an ok drink try that variation then. Maybe a shorter time as well. This will change the output  if you like you can fiddle with the grinder setting again.

When you change the grinder setting waste a few grams of grinds and if for some reason you set coarser go* too* coarse and then fine.

A better idea of brew temperature the easy way is to monitor it as it comes out of the portafilter. It should be under 93C really. A machine may aim for some figure between 70 and 80 degrees when it hits the cup.


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## vivera1977 (Apr 5, 2021)

ajohn said:


> You can't really measure brew water temperature like that. It needs one of these
> 
> https://www.espressoparts.com/products/scace-2-espresso-machine-thermofilter-temperature-pressure-device
> 
> ...


 Thank you for valuable information. Regards.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

vivera1977 said:


> Hello, my name is Tomasz, I am from Poland. Since I don't speak English, I write and translate by translating. I think it will go somehow.
> We don't have much about Sage on coffee forums in Poland, so I'm here with you.
> Two weeks ago I bought a Sage Barista PRO SES878 and it's hard for me to make a delicious espresso, I realize it's not good and I learn from your forum and Polish (rules similar). Right now I'm waiting for a double tamper board with alli and a scale. So far, I think I have lost 8kg of coffee from the local oven. I brewed coffee sometimes for one day and a maximum of 2 weeks. I had sweet coffee, milk chocolate, brown sugar, almonds, walnut. Coffee comes out only sour and tart. Therefore, I began to measure the temperature in the machine.
> 
> ...


 Sour and tart is a sign extraction is low, this can be because of poor puck prep (channeling), or you're not grinding fine enough, or the ratio is too low, or the temp isn't high enough, or a combination of all of those things.

19g dose to 45g shot is fine, if anything you should try a longer ratio as this helps push extraction up. A lower ratio will make it harder to achieve a higher ey, grinding finer will be necessary; grinding finer and pulling a shorter ratio can produce a more concentrated shot at the same low extraction which I imagine is not something you want. Grinding finer can also lead to more silt in the cup and a shot that veers between sour and bitter/gritty.

Based on what you've said there's no reason at all to change the ratio you're using at this stage and no reason to suspect decreasing it will improve the shot, especially if your aim is to get past a sour and tart shot at a strength you like which is presumably what you want. If the ratio is too long you'll be getting excessive roast notes or bitterness, or the puck will be rapidly eroding towards the end of the shot which will show up as quickly increasing flow rate.

The temp can't be measured the way you've measured it as flow rates without coffee are much higher. It may be beneficial to slightly lower the temp but to get past the sour and tart tastes I'd say simply grind finer. *The coffee needs to be rested for about a week sometimes two weeks or even more before it settles down, if you're using it "from day one max of two weeks" that could be your problem.* You can extract for more than 30 seconds without problems so don't worry about that. Make sure the coffee is rested properly and try grinding finer or increase ratio or both, work on puck prep too.


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## vivera1977 (Apr 5, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> Sour and tart is a sign extraction is low, this can be because of poor puck prep (channeling), or you're not grinding fine enough, or the ratio is too low, or the temp isn't high enough, or a combination of all of those things.
> 
> 19g dose to 45g shot is fine, if anything you should try a longer ratio as this helps push extraction up. A lower ratio will make it harder to achieve a higher ey, grinding finer will be necessary; grinding finer and pulling a shorter ratio can produce a more concentrated shot at the same low extraction which I imagine is not something you want. Grinding finer can also lead to more silt in the cup and a shot that veers between sour and bitter/gritty.
> 
> ...


 Thanks a lot, I also have the opportunity to buy the same type of coffee matured (from 2 to 4 weeks from roasting) and I think I'll start from that too. Because this coffee is really tasty in americano or poured, you can really feel all the flavor notes on the packaging.


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