# More controversy...



## NickdeBug

Just got back from my visiting my sister and my brother-in-law had bought himself a Sage Duo Temp Pro, apparently having been impressed with my Dual Boiler.

I had a go and tried an espresso and flat white. It produced really very impressive results. Nice smooth espresso from some Rave Signature and the milk foaming was surprisingly good. I still think that the Dual Boiler is a significantly better machine (it should be! It costs three times as much) but the Sage Duo Pro is more than a match for my Gaggia Classic.

So, Sage Duo Temp Pro, the new 1st choice starter machine?


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## risky

NickdeBug said:


> So, Sage Duo Temp Pro, the new 1st choice starter machine?


This will probably hinge on second hand availability and price, and modability (if it's required?) At £315 it's probably 3x the price of a second hand Classic which is the go to starter machine.

Right now I'm guessing there aren't many available on the second hand market.

I notice the Sage has PID built in, but there isn't a screen to show the actual temperature, so you're relying on a 'ready' light? How accurate is it I wonder?

Daft question of the day: Are the espresso machines built by Breville (like the Smart Grinder Pro?)


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## The Systemic Kid

Inclusion of PID is a plus but I don't think it will be possible to modify the bar pressure which is a big problem.


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## NickdeBug

For starter machine I am really talking about someone who wants something to go with out of the box, probably as a first move from Nespresso etc.

Pricing assumes comparison with new (people do still buy new stuff every now and then







)

Patrick - good point about the pump pressure. Set to 15 I believe. Low pressure pre-infusion helps I suppose.

Just based on ease of use and result in cup it was very good. Certainly easier to achieve good results with than the Classic.


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## Aussiewicker

risky said:


> ... Daft question of the day: Are the espresso machines built by Breville (like the Smart Grinder Pro?)


I just bought the Sage Barista Espresso after returning home from Australia, where my daughter has the Breville model:

As far as I can see, between both physical appearance & build, and coffee production, the only difference is in the physical outer design of the bean hopper.

The UK (Sage) is Australian designed and engineered, but built in China as I suspect the Breville probably is too.

At £450 or thereabouts, the Barista Express does it for me as a beginner to the world of better coffee.


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## Pompeyexile

I do find this fascinating. There are plenty of machines out there like the Sage that are made so any Joe can hopefully get a decent cup of coffee but with minimal skills required (grinding and tamping excepted).

Now many moons ago when the Gaggia was first introduced I'm guessing the same was thought by them, here is a machine that gives an every day Joe with limited skills a chance to make great coffee at home. So what's the difference?

The difference is of course us and our never ending endeavour and search for that great, rather than just good cup of coffee by tinkering. Now the Gaggia satisfies that to a degree because it can be tinkered with, however the Sage it seems cannot.

So the question is what can you change that would or could make a difference? Well we know with the Gaggia it's add a PID or adjust the POV and of course a finer shower screen, brass dispersion plate and better quality baskets and portafilters.

So add a PID......Sage has one. OK it's not adjustable but does it need to be? It gives pre-infusion which seems to be a desirable feature and something people with a Gaggia try and emulate too, because we're told it is a good thing and can help stop things like channelling.

Adjust the POV......Not possible with the Sage but that does have a pre-infusion; does that counter act the need for 9 bar pressure when pushing the water through? Also as it seems all lower end machines come with the POV set at 15 bar does this mean they are all wrong? If so, why therefore are they all setting their machines at 15 bar? Is it because professional shop machines are set at that? Again are all shop machines set at 15 bar making [email protected] coffee? (Starbucks & Nero excepted).

Finer shower screen......Is it the Gaggia supplied one is just not very good, but no mention how good or bad the Sage on is. It might be perfectly fine. Also if IMS come up with one for the Sage, is it really necessary?

Brass dispersion plate.....Needed for the Gaggia for temp stability at the group head. Does the Sage have the same problem with group head temperature? Nobody has mentioned it yet.

Better quality baskets or portafilters..... Again don't recall anyone mentioning the Sage ones are inferior or having one made by IMS for example would improve the shot. But you have to assume the Gaggia ones are not as good as they could be which is why there are better ones being produced for them.

Now I know with the PID you can adjust the temperature to suit but for most of us, is fiddling a degree up or down really going to make a difference to what we can or can't taste? As for the POV adjustment, most of us again set it to 9-10 bar as advised and leave it at that; we don't tinker with it, constantly adjust it...well most of us don't. Again are users of the Sage saying they are getting constantly sour or bitter shots due to the temp or POV not being adjustable?

It seems to me that many of those who want the infinite adjustments on pressure and temp etc and can taste the difference in such minute adjustments, will already have machines that cost far more than either the Gaggia or the Sage equivalent where such adjustments can be made and monitored.

Although I love the ritual of making the coffee, the grinding, the tamping the frothing I also like the idea that those three things are enough for me to have to worry about and stable temperature and pressure etc if the machine can have those without me having to intervene, is OK by me.

Yes, I have replaced all the things on my Gaggia mentioned above simply because as a newbie and having no idea or experience, I have been led to believe it would give me the best chance of making a good cup of coffee. But if a machine comes along that has many of those things already built in, why knock it?

So the Gaggia pluses are that it's been around for eons, parts are easily replaceable, it's easy to fix yourself (if you're that way inclined) it's easily upgradeable and there is a very healthy second hand market. The Sage however is the new boy on the block, still unknown as far as reliability is concerned. Virtually no second hand market, seemingly no upgrades available or known if they are necessary and no possibility to tinker.

We know that the Gaggia with all the mods can produce a decent cup of coffee. Having said that from what I've been reading so can the Sage. The question is are they on a par or is one far better than the other. If the Gaggia with all it's mods produces a better cup, then fine. But if not, then the Sage has to be considered. If you are buying new.

It seems to me that the reasons all the mods are done to the Gaggia are twofold....

1. To get the best shot you can from a relatively basic machine.

2. To part way make it the machine we wish we could afford.

I guess the real coffee jury will always be out on the Sage at least until it's been around another five plus years and has proven itself for reliability and fixability, but some of that is negated by offers such as 'Lifetime Warranty' by companies such as Lakeland. But for those of us new to this malarkey and wanting a no nonsense leave it and let it do its job machine with some bells and whistles already thrown in. Then it does seem a decent prospect.

Oh I forgot one other thing. There is a certain amount of nostalgia surrounding the Gaggia too which can only come with time. I do love my Gaggia even in it's broken state, which is why I am persevering with trying to fix it. But I have been sorely tempted in throwing in the towel and going for something more user friendly, and the Sage with that lifetime warranty is an attractive proposition.

Having only been on here about 18 months and knowing nothing about decent coffee making I've probably just wasted some precious time left of my life putting down my thoughts and it's all a load of gonads; so......

Tin helmet on.......INCOMING!


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## 4085

All of the sage machines suffer the possibility of ongoing electrical based problems due to all the wizardry the have. this was stead when they first came out, and although a lot of owners keep quiet, I know of a fair amount of problems with their equipment across the range. Of course, it is a numbers game and as long as the knackered ones are within acceptable limits for Sage, they will not care. But, I doubt there will be many models ever make it through to Vintage stage!


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## hotmetal

OPV (over pressure valve). Apparently the 9 bar thing is the traditional pressure that espresso is extracted at, and all the advice about grind/shot time is based on it I believe. I think the 15 bar thing is to do with the fact that a lot of consumer-oriented machines are also compatible with ESE-pods which require a higher pressure. Also marketing people like big numbers because they assume that Joe Public will always assume more is better (like Argos explaining megapixels on their £20-100 camera spread).


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## DoubleShot

Isn't the higher (15 bar) pressure also for use with the stock pressurised baskets that create *fake* crema?


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## The Systemic Kid

yes


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## hotmetal

Good point DS. Pods *and* pressurised baskets. Which is why it's that class of machines that generally come set at 15. And the first thing many Classic owners do on here is set it to 9.5. I think Pompey makes some good points though about the usability of the sage machines though, for people that don't necessarily want to start messing about with machine internals. (I cheated and bought my Classic pre-pimped!)


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## jlarkin

For some reason that model doesn't have many Amazon reviews but the others do have a fair few and they're not getting comments about the electrics failing etc. Time will tell and you can't tell if it's a "good" machine for serious coffee folk from the reviews but they'll definitely show you if it has fundamental flaws because people are very quick to complain!


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## NickdeBug

Looks like this comes with a single walled single and double basket and a dual walled single and double, same as with the Dual Boiler.

If the same as the DB then the quality is excellent.

As Pompeyexile mentions, there is a market out there for affordable machines that you can achieve good results with from day one. The growth of the pod/capsule market has proved that quite conclusively.

For every one person who decides to really take their coffee experience further, there must be plenty who give up due to poor initial results or faff. If Sage or anyone else can improve the odds for the beginner than I think that should be applauded.

Regarding the increasingly tiresome argument over the reliability or longevity - this is why there is a warranty. Do you get that worried about this when buying a new washing machine or other appliance?


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## Mrboots2u

NickdeBug said:


> Looks like this comes with a single walled single and double basket and a dual walled single and double, same as with the Dual Boiler.
> 
> If the same as the DB then the quality is excellent.
> 
> As Pompeyexile mentions, there is a market out there for affordable machines that you can achieve good results with from day one. The growth of the pod/capsule market has proved that quite conclusively.
> 
> For every one person who decides to really take their coffee experience further, there must be plenty who give up due to poor initial results or faff. If Sage or anyone else can improve the odds for the beginner than I think that should be applauded.
> 
> Regarding the increasingly tiresome argument over the reliability or longevity - this is why there is a warranty. Do you get that worried about this when buying a new washing machine or other appliance?


Plus one ....


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## jeebsy

NickdeBug said:


> Regarding the increasingly tiresome argument over the reliability or longevity - this is why there is a warranty. Do you get that worried about this when buying a new washing machine or other appliance?


If a machine had loads of cack reviews and looked likely to need replaced during the warranty then i'd get something else. Having to return an item is a faff. The warranty should be a last resort, not something that needs relied on.


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## NickdeBug

jeebsy said:


> If a machine had loads of cack reviews and looked likely to need replaced during the warranty then i'd get something else. Having to return an item is a faff. The warranty should be a last resort, not something that needs relied on.


Fair point jeebsy, the issue being that this doesn't have any cack reviews as far as I can see, just a number of people speculating as to the reliabilty of the electronics within.

The only time I have had to claim on a warranty was an Epsom printer. They dropped off a new replacement at the same time as picking up the defective one. It was actually 3 months out of warranty as well.


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## jeebsy

Yeah, it's a bit unfair not to buy it on the basis it might not work or might need replaced - deserves a shot


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## garydyke1

Ive still failed to kill my DB, believe me i've tried - hard water, abuse with forced 60+ second pre-infusion-only shots, pop-up cafes.

The amount of coffees I have produced on mine in 18 months is probably equivalent of 4-5 years usage by Joe Bloggs home-user.


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## scottomus

ive spent the past few hours reading your review along with others and i think its sealed the deal for the sage i think. Going to hold off to see if i can get a better price, and possibly visit BB if they have one to play with first.


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## Xpenno

garydyke1 said:


> Ive still failed to kill my DB, believe me i've tried - hard water, abuse with forced 60+ second pre-infusion-only shots, pop-up cafes.
> 
> The amount of coffees I have produced on mine in 18 months is probably equivalent of 4-5 years usage by Joe Bloggs home-user.


Popup cafes, I didn't get an invite


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## Xpenno

I don't see the controversy here, they seem to have taken the design principles from the best commercial machines which are designed to make thousands of shots a day. They've scaled the quality down to consumer grade so you can make sensible numbers of shots per day without it keeling over and made sure that the price is right and then backed it up with a warranty that shows they think it's built to last.

Good on them I say, can't think of a reason not to buy one to be honest.


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## coffeechap

U



Xpenno said:


> I don't see the controversy here, they seem to have taken the design principles from the best commercial machines which are designed to make thousands of shots a day. They've scaled the quality down to consumer grade so you can make sensible numbers of shots per day without it keeling over and made sure that the price is right and then backed it up with a warranty that shows they think it's built to last.
> 
> Good on them I say, can't think of a reason not to buy one to be honest.


Swap you one for the vending machine


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## jeebsy

Xpenno said:


> I don't see the controversy here, they seem to have taken the design principles from the best commercial machines which are designed to make thousands of shots a day. They've scaled the quality down to consumer grade so you can make sensible numbers of shots per day without it keeling over and made sure that the price is right and then backed it up with a warranty that shows they think it's built to last.
> 
> Good on them I say, can't think of a reason not to buy one to be honest.


Some of the deals on them have been ridiculous. For£900odd with a lifetime warranty they're an attractive proposition


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## coffeechap

jeebsy said:


> Some of the deals on them have been ridiculous. For£900odd with a lifetime warranty they're an attractive proposition


Are you sure you can't get a deal in Germany?


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## jeebsy

Haven't looked, don't know what the German for Sage is


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## jeebsy

Although i forgot you can get a Brewtus for 850 from Europe now


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## Dallah

The Breville/Sage branding in Germany/Austria is Gastroback.

They don't get the latest version of the dual boiler though. No BES920 but the equivalent of the BES900 (42636). Back to approved workshop for descaling.

http://www.amazon.de/Gastroback-42636-Espresso-Advanced-Control/dp/B007WR3OXO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1432591510&sr=8-1&keywords=gastroback+dual+boiler


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## garydyke1

Xpenno said:


> Popup cafes, I didn't get an invite


It was a Vodafone thing, you didn't miss much


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## NickdeBug

ridland said:


> The Breville/Sage branding in Germany/Austria is Gastroback.


Has less of the wise herb feel to it


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## jeebsy

ridland said:


> The Breville/Sage branding in Germany/Austria is Gastroback.


It's Salbei


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## coffeechap

Boom 989 euro £750!

https://koomio.com/geschaeft/saturn-koenigsallee-duesseldorf/angebot/121586#.VWOdaxikqrU

Yet another example of ripoff Britain


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## jeebsy

coffeechap said:


> Boom 989 euro £750!
> 
> https://koomio.com/geschaeft/saturn-koenigsallee-duesseldorf/angebot/121586#.VWOdaxikqrU
> 
> Yet another example of ripoff Britain


That and an E37S for 1500


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## NickdeBug

989 euro is a shade over £700, and they offer a five year additional warranty for another 100 euronotes.

Or go and find a dented one at Lakeland


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## garydyke1

its all a farce. Heston use a linea PB and EK43. Not a Sage in sight.


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## coffeechap

jeebsy said:


> That and an E37S for 1500


Baaaaaaaargain


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## coffeechap

Amazing how exactly the same machine costs nearly £400 less on mainland europe


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## Xpenno

coffeechap said:


> U
> 
> Swap you one for the vending machine


I'd be interested if they did a pressure profiler type model. Loving the tweakage too much


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## Xpenno

garydyke1 said:


> its all a farce. Heston use a linea PB and EK43. Not a Sage in sight.


He'd probably get away with an ek and sage though, don't suppose he's doing many coffees in a day


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## coffeechap

Xpenno said:


> I'd be interested if they did a pressure profiler type model. Loving the tweakage too much


Tweakage is that like twirking


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## Xpenno

coffeechap said:


> Tweakage is that like twirking


Only when I've got my hotpants on


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## Pompeyexile

See, I knew someone would put me right. The 15 bar pressure setting...pods. Mind you the Gaggia Classic has been around since 1991; were pods about when it first came out?

As for dodgy electrics on the Sage. Well any Gaggia fitted with a PID is a DIY jobby; maybe not too difficult (for some) but still DIY. The Sage PID is factory fitted with a part designed for the machine and therefore one would assume checked and tested thoroughly before being let loose on the public. So what are the odds of one going wrong more than the other?

Oh well, only time will tell whether the Sage has legs or how long the current models last before they are changed. Having said that, whilst the Gaggia may look virtually the same machine on the outside after 24 years, internally it has gone through some changes and as some will testify, not necessarily for the better.

Still it makes for a very interesting healthy debate which is partly what forums were invented for.


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## garydyke1

Xpenno said:


> He'd probably get away with an ek and sage though, don't suppose he's doing many coffees in a day


The hinds Head does a few


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## Pompeyexile

garydyke1 said:


> The hinds Head does a few


Also even though it's not cheap, is the top of the range dual boiler Sage a machine they've made for siting in a commercial eating/drinking establishment or just for the deep pocketed home enthusiast. If it's the latter why would Heston have one in his work place anyway. If it is, then he should really if for no other reason he'll probably get it free gratis.


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## garydyke1

Pompeyexile said:


> Also even though it's not cheap, is the top of the range dual boiler Sage a machine they've made for siting in a commercial eating/drinking establishment or just for the deep pocketed home enthusiast. If it's the latter why would Heston have one in his work place anyway. If it is, then he should really if for no other reason he'll probably get it free gratis.


Its designed for home use. There would be no warranty if placed in a commercial environment (same as e.g Baratza grinders)


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## Pompeyexile

In that case I want to see a picture of his kitchen!.......Home kitchen that is. If he hasn't got one in pride of place I'm writing a letter to the Times!

It will be a curt correspondence signed 'Jumping coffee bean'.


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## drude

Well, this is an interesting blog post from Prufrock


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## garydyke1

Finally Im not shouting alone

''Prufrock has a prodigious collection of espresso machines in our London Barista Resource but the machine that produces the finest glassiest milk every time is without a doubt the Sage Dual Boiler home machine. ''


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## 4085

garydyke1 said:


> Finally Im not shouting alone
> 
> ''Prufrock has a prodigious collection of espresso machines in our London Barista Resource but the machine that produces the finest glassiest milk every time is without a doubt the Sage Dual Boiler home machine. ''


Yes, but by the time you have textured enough milk for two decent kappas, the espresso is cold!


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## Kyle548

dfk41 said:


> Yes, but by the time you have textured enough milk for two decent kappas, the espresso is cold!


Luckily Wendleboe recommends cold(er) espresso in his video.

The colder, the more development..

Sage could go for another sponsor there...


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## garydyke1

dfk41 said:


> Yes, but by the time you have textured enough milk for two decent kappas, the espresso is cold!


Not at all , run the shot and do the milk at the same time. Dual boiler. Clues in the title .


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## Jay605

I have read with interest the comments on the Sage DTP. Just wondered if NickdeBug (or anybody else) has any further Sage comments as this thread was started a while ago? I have been considering the Sage and Gaggia Classic, so maybe you have some words of wisdom now a few months have passed?


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