# Extraction times how long is long



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Just wondering how long in time an extraction can be , as I believe there are no steadfast rules is 1min 30 too long for 2:1 .?

end result in the cup was interesting and the flow didn't blonde at all .

be interesting to know what others think ? And or others experiences


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

1. It's too long if it taste s bad .

2. I Don't believe in blonding


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

If it tastes good, then who cares? I regularly take up to that time to pull a shot on the lever from filling the chamber for pre-infusion, and get very drinkable results. I guess the 27s guidelines are for pump machines where you don't have much input over the extraction once you hit the button (other than programming beforehand on some machines, or adjusting the paddle on others). Maybe this is where levers differ from pumps?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> 1. It's too long if it taste s bad .
> 
> 2. I Don't believe in blonding


That blonding has no relevance ? Surely it's an indication of reduction of coffee oils , but in my sweeping statement all I was trying to portray that the extraction looked good , I know that not necessarily relevant and that looking good doesn't equate to taste , but I wish I had of tasted it more before I sunk it .

all the rules seem to be fluttering like paper in the wind , I am trying to work out which ones to catch


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Thecatlinux said:


> all the rules seem to be fluttering like paper in the wind , I am trying to work out which ones to catch


This perfectly describes my coffee world right now.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Weight in weight out and taste seems the most relevant at the moment .

If all else fails add milk and fool myself .


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Thecatlinux said:


> taste seems the most relevant


Had a bean which last night made this rule the most important. If I had stuck with the rules in my head AND not been tipped to address it in a certain way probably never would have hit the flavour notes I would have been looking for.

Of course throwing the other rules out opens up the playing field and variables massively so could take more dialing in :S



Thecatlinux said:


> If all else fails add milk and fool myself.


lol well yeah but don't give up to easily.......that's cheating. Not saying I haven't done it to save a bag of bah from the bin before though hahaha


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Thecatlinux said:


> That blonding has no relevance ? Surely it's an indication of reduction of coffee oils


Hopefully there aren't oils in the first place . Why not try two shots - one based purely on weight in versus weight out, then another without scales and stop it when the flow lightens up. See which one you prefer


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Taste is most relevant... Weighing in and out doesn't create a taste , it is a measure of some the variables that drove the taste in the cup.

" blonding " is also used by some to measure , I found using blonding unreliable , subjective between people , different between beans , and hard to communicate between different people . plus my shots tasted bad. I may have not been doing it right for sure.

I get the analogue appeal of using blonding , it feels less boffin. But for me it never worked. Plus your blonde is my brunette


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Imagine stopping an EK shot at the first sign of the flow lightening up.

20g in 11g out, anyone?!


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Relying on taste is obviously a good idea. But we still need some rules to guide us on what to do when surely?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

jonc said:


> Relying on taste is obviously a good idea. But we still need some rules to guide us on what to do when surely?


Just free your mind, the man wants you to think you need rules. Coffee don't know no rules, coffee is as coffee does son.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Imagine stopping an EK shot at the first sign of the flow lightening up.
> 
> 20g in 11g out, anyone?!


Haha, 10 sec preinfuse, flow starts....one....two...STOP!


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

jlarkin said:


> Just free your mind, the man wants you to think you need rules. Coffee don't know no rules, coffee is as coffee does son.


But without some rules, some understanding of if I do X then y will happen, we're essentially embracing full randomness?!


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Chaos theory.......


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

....it is about taste but more importantly, it's about knowing what to change based on what you are tasting and I think this is pretty tough for most people. How do you know whether to up dose, down dose, grind finer, grind coarser, tamp harder etc etc etc - based on what you are tasting. I don't think you'll get any succinct answers to that one here - or anywhere else for that matter. Don't you just love espresso?


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

The subjective elements are what make it all so tricky. One mans sour is another mans bitter. One mans strong is another's weak. Maybe differences in palette, maybe because you're getting sour and bitter together. I think you have to figure out what you like first and then try to understand how to steer things towards that. It may mean changes to your technique, it may mean getting a new grinder! - personally, I don't think you ever really get there with spro. It's an ongoing journey. Just when you think you're getting somewhere.....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jeebsy said:


> Haha, 10 sec preinfuse, flow starts....one....two...STOP!


Todays challenge is exactly that. Refrac it , then taste it


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> ....it is about taste but more importantly, it's about knowing what to change based on what you are tasting and I think this is pretty tough for most people. How do you know whether to up dose, down dose ....


I never think of changing dose to change the flavour profile -why would i? surely 15g/30g/25sec should taste the same as 20g/40g/25sec? It's the same ratio and time, right?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

http://www.baristahustle.com/espresso-recipes-analyzing-dose/


fluffles said:


> I never think of changing dose to change the flavour profile -why would i? surely 15g/30g/25sec should taste the same as 20g/40g/25sec? It's the same ratio and time, right?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Todays challenge is exactly that. Refrac it , then taste it


I'll do it after work


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

@Thecatlinux

These threads can be seen as " my way or the high way " in debates. I just wanted to point out , if that's the perception , its unintentional on my part...I like debate and questioning . As always , humour and sarcasm , should be read as being light hearted ( not saying that anyone isn't taking it this way )

Taste is king ..what method someone uses to get to tasty , really is up to them .

Using numbers to measure the variables of a drink , doesn't negate the taste , make the drink soulless or barista or the person drinking it , boffin.

In the same way other preparation methods don't make the drink more soulful or better ...

If a barista, at home , can hit super tasty each time , by going in blonding as the indicator , then that is great, it really is ...why change.

Personally it didn't work for me , so i use a method that does ...I have have tasty 50 second shots btw

For those that have not read this, this is a good read on " time " , and as usual relays info far better than i ever could

http://www.baristahustle.com/espresso-recipes-time/


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

fluffles said:


> I never think of changing dose to change the flavour profile -why would i? surely 15g/30g/25sec should taste the same as 20g/40g/25sec? It's the same ratio and time, right?


I was thinking more about changing strength rather than flavour. The point I was trying to make was around understanding where you're at and then where you might need to go next. In your example though, you'd need to grind coarser to get the same timing with the different doses. If you left the grind the same, the flavours would be very different. Despite what Mr Perger says, I often add or subtract 0.5g from whatever dose I'm using, just to see what happens. Sometimes it's better, sometimes not.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dose seems to be more important in its relevance to me in terms the basket you use and headroom. Different beans , grinds , roasts , more or less volume and headspace in the basket


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Yeah, for sure. I wouldn't mess with the dose until right at the end. Like you say, if I'm using a 18g VST basket, I'll generally stick with a 18g dose. It's at the end, after I've got things about right with the grind that I'm usually temped to up or down the dose just to see what happens. It either gets me somewhere better or makes me feel satisfied that I'm happy where I am. In keeping with the general theme here, whatever works for you. I would say that I'm not that fussed about time generally, within reason of course.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Todays challenge is exactly that. Refrac it , then taste it


Went a bit too fine, 20 in, 24 out (also think i stopped it late) in 27 secs, 13.7% TDS, 17% EY, really not pleasant to drink, did weird things to my mouth


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jeebsy said:


> Went a bit too fine, 20 in, 24 out (also think i stopped it late) in 27 secs, 13.7% TDS, 17% EY, really not pleasant to drink, did weird things to my mouth


Interesting that 17% is achieved in 24g output. You'd probably need double the output for only another 3-4% EY


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Went a bit too fine, 20 in, 24 out (also think i stopped it late) in 27 secs, 13.7% TDS, 17% EY, really not pleasant to drink, did weird things to my mouth


Was it

mouth sad

mouth bad


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Quite a high time for that output on ek , not sure how much difference that makes - would normally have my 40-48 out in that time if not slightly quicker


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Really haven't put myself across very well , New beans went into the major with a setting far finer than I thought was necessary but was trying to dial in from fine to coarse , rather than the other way round 17grams in and was aiming for 32 out , total shot time 1 minute 32 ish seconds . I was suprised at the results in the cup I took a sip and it was a interesting shot with a good amount of mouth feel , but then I listened to my head and not my heart and poured it away .

I just wondered , is it possible to extract for such a long period of time , there must be a ceiling of how far you can go.

as for the colours coming out of the extraction I am totally unaware of what that reports back to me and I am only applying extraction philosophy and a smidgen of coffee folk law .

@Gary**** I was always under the illusion and or referred to it as coffee oils I do not know the correct term , ( d- for me and will return to the corner of the classroom ) LOL


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> @Thecatlinux
> 
> These threads can be seen as " my way or the high way " in debates. I just wanted to point out , if that's the perception , its unintentional on my part...I like debate and questioning . As always , humour and sarcasm , should be read as being light hearted ( not saying that anyone isn't taking it this way )
> 
> ...


 I only report back on my coffee journey as and when something else rears its head up . I like to throw things in to the mix and I am not afraid of being exposed before my peers or asking daft or irrelevant questions , I find it stimulates conversation and dispels lots of myths , and hopefully the response helps me and others to improve our skill set , your humour and sarcasm as well as others make the journey that much more interesting .

my perception of the forum and the characters on it is one big pub where we all meet up from time to time .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> I only report back on my coffee journey as and when something else rears its head up . I like to throw things in to the mix and I am not afraid of being exposed before my peers or asking daft or irrelevant questions , I find it stimulates conversation and dispels lots of myths , and hopefully the response helps me and others to improve our skill set , your humour and sarcasm as well as others make the journey that much more interesting .
> 
> my perception of the forum and the characters on it is one big pub where we all meet up from time to time .


Whoose round is it , and who keeps hogging the pool table?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Interesting that 17% is achieved in 24g output. You'd probably need double the output for only another 3-4% EY


The last drips out of the PF will be somewhat weaker than the average TDS of the shot, concentration drops fast as beverage weight increases, so this doesn't look necessarily typical. (EDIT: Mean't to write "atypical").


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Whoose round is it , and who keeps hogging the pool table?


Jeebsy


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

MWJB said:


> The last drips out of the PF will be somewhat weaker than the average TDS of the shot, concentration drops fast as beverage weight increases, so this doesn't look necessarily typical.












http://www.baristahustle.com/espresso-recipes-understanding-yield/ indicated the bulk of the extraction happened early then it needed more water to pull the final bits out?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

At the start, the easy to extract components extract fast, the first

Scroll halfway, or so, down the page to Vince Fedele's graph here...http://www.jimseven.com/2011/02/08/continued-thoughts-on-pressure-profiling/

...blue line is the %TDS dropping at a faster rate than the %EY (red line) rises.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Do you think the relatively long time could account for the numbers I got? Would normally pull 2/2.5 out in that time


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The fine grind probably accounted for the numbers, limiting extraction - too fine a grind may not be letting the water get access to the soluble solids. Coarser would make for a fuller extraction, with faster flow...as in Perger's later diagram...


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I'm confused - when you said those numbers weren't typical, did you mean the EY was higher than expected given the shot was cut halfway to target yield? If so, going coarser, we'd have cut at say 24 out in 18 seconds and the EY would be lower?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> I'm confused - when you said those numbers weren't typical, did you mean the EY was higher than expected given the shot was cut halfway to target yield? If so, going coarser, we'd have cut at say 24 out in 18 seconds and the EY would be lower?


Humblest apologies, I was quite sure I wrote "atypical", but obviously not!









So the numbers you had seem pretty normal & a shot time might be overly long due to too fine a grind/overcompaction of the puck, slowing the shot, but also limiting extraction by not efficiently & evenly washing out the solids. Too short = low extraction, Goldilocks zone time = good extraction, too long = back to low extraction.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Haha, thanks for clarying - doesn't take much to confuse me!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I did a bit of refracting back in the days of the Brewtus and Royal combo getting a max of 18-19% EY with 18->28-30g . I noted that approx 2/3rds of the dissolvables were extracted in the first half of the shot (say 12-13% EY)


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Haha, thanks for clarying - doesn't take much to confuse me!



View attachment 15933


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

garydyke1 said:


> I did a bit of refracting back in the days of the Brewtus and Royal combo getting a max of 18-19% EY with 18->28-30g . I noted that approx 2/3rds of the dissolvables were extracted in the first half of the shot (say 12-13% EY)


So the second half of the shot needs more water, to flush them out and gain the sweetness? (think I read that right from a previous post).

Would dropping the pressure gradually throughout the shot get a better EY, as opposed to a continuous pressure?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Rhys said:


> post).
> 
> Would dropping the pressure gradually throughout the shot get a better EY, as opposed to a continuous pressure?


Maybe . Vibe pump or rotary? reduced flow rate or increased?


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

garydyke1 said:


> Maybe . Vibe pump or rotary? reduced flow rate or increased?


Neither, lever. Pull down hard to start the shot and gradually lessen the force exerted until it's next to nothing. Flow rate pretty much stays the same, enough for a nice little mousetail.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Rhys said:


> Neither, lever. Pull down hard to start the shot and gradually lessen the force exerted until it's next to nothing. Flow rate pretty much stays the same, enough for a nice little mousetail.


Grab a refrac off someone and test it


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Rhys said:


> So the second half of the shot needs more water, to flush them out and gain the sweetness? (think I read that right from a previous post).
> 
> Would dropping the pressure gradually throughout the shot get a better EY, as opposed to a continuous pressure?


I suspect not..limited testing suggest this too

I suspect that the spring lever "magic" happens as a result of the temp decline ( 4-6/degrees measured via scace ) as opposed to the pressure decline. Manual lever dunno


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Hmm, would be interesting to find out if someone has a refrac and a Pavoni, compared to a spring lever. I don't know if there will be a temp decline with mine as they are known to get hotter after two shots. I have to rinse the pf under the tap to cool it down and put a wet cloth over the grouphead if it gets too hot.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

This might be of relevance: http://www.jimseven.com/2011/02/08/continued-thoughts-on-pressure-profiling/


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

That's quite interesting from both an historical point of view and from what we do now, can't believe I missed it fist time around!


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> This might be of relevance: http://www.jimseven.com/2011/02/08/continued-thoughts-on-pressure-profiling/


Intetesting reading.


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