# Double shot, ristretto and lungo



## picalilli (Jun 13, 2019)

Hi all,

been playing around with new DTP and mignon set up for a few weeks now. One thing that's really confusing me is the question of exactly how much is a double espresso? General answer to this online seems to be that a double is 60ml, but then when people talk about ratios on double shots they tend to say 2:1 or 1.5:1 ...if I'm using 18g espresso then that would mean a shot of around 36 or 27 grams, which is well under what I suppose 60ml would end up being in weight...(I'm guessing 60ml is more or less 60g, give or take?)

i know the answer to this is likely to be 'whatever tastes good to you' but it would be interesting to know what the standard is. Or have I got this confused entirely?

with the beans I'm using at the minute I'm using about 18g in and getting around 32g in 25 seconds. But then I see people talking about looking for 50-60g and wondering if I'm pulling ristretto sizes...This is on the sage DTP so that timing includes pre-infusion, not sure if that matters...

thanks!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

A double brewed shot is any shot, of any output weight, that is brewed from the double basket (18g in your case). If you are pulling 32g out, then that is fairly short, you could call it a ristretto if you felt like it, you could also call it Clive ...if it tastes good, what does it matter what you call it? I pull anything up to 80g from 18g, I don't name the shots.

If you split a shot from 18g into 2 cups, then you have 2 single shots from one double brewed dose.

So, basically, ratio has nothing to do with single vs double, ratio sets the intended range of strength for the coffee you make.

Pre-infusion time is included in overall shot time.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

To add to the above which nails it

The standard is what tastes good, we all have different preferences. The weights and ratios are measures to help adjust and repeat tasty.

Ristretto, normale etc date from a time when you communicated strength of shots is a different language with different dose sizes, coffees and grinders.

And you would call the shot derek not Clive.


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## picalilli (Jun 13, 2019)

Thanks for the replies. I fully understand that 'what tastes good' is best. I just find it confusing that the general 'google' consensus of a double shot is 60ml, when the recommendations on ratio tend to be far lower.

Is it just the case that most people who are very into espresso just prefer shorter shots? The 2:1 ration seems to come up a lot, it was even on a bag of coffee I bought (the bag said 18g to 36g out)

I'm enjoying the shots I'm drinking anyway, so it's not all that important - as has been rightly pointed out. The main reason I started trying to get to the bottom of it was that I was under the impression that pouring longer shots meant they were more bitter, so was maybe over-worrying over-extracting, but if up to 80g is still considered okay (i.e. it's not over extracting/spoiling the coffee) then I guess that makes things simpler.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

picalilli said:


> Thanks for the replies. I fully understand that 'what tastes good' is best. I just find it confusing that the general 'google' consensus of a double shot is 60ml, when the recommendations on ratio tend to be far lower.
> 
> Is it just the case that most people who are very into espresso just prefer shorter shots? The 2:1 ration seems to come up a lot, it was even on a bag of coffee I bought (the bag said 18g to 36g out)
> 
> I'm enjoying the shots I'm drinking anyway, so it's not all that important - as has been rightly pointed out. The main reason I started trying to get to the bottom of it was that I was under the impression that pouring longer shots meant they were more bitter, so was maybe over-worrying over-extracting, but if up to 80g is still considered okay (i.e. it's not over extracting/spoiling the coffee) then I guess that makes things simpler.


 Your referrinf to a standard that is pre ratios and over extracting is reflected in the taste not in the name of the drink.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Don't worry so much about over-extraction, It's quite unlikely with light/medium roasts and shots will taste worse if you are too fine (for the chosen ratio) before you over-extract.

Some folk can probably pull more than 80g, at a coarser grind, without over-extracting, the shot may be balanced in flavour just weaker, just like my 80g shots are half as strong as a 40g shot from 18g.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Don't worry so much about over-extraction, It's quite unlikely with light/medium roasts and shots will taste worse if you are too fine (for the chosen ratio) before you over-extract.
> 
> Some folk can probably pull more than 80g, at a coarser grind, without over-extracting, the shot may be balanced in flavour just weaker, just like my 80g shots are half as strong as a 40g shot from 18g.


 80g shots are called Humphrey btw.

Here's a short read about the beverages OP has brought up: https://blog.chriscoffee.com/brew-ratio/

And a nice take on extraction: https://baristahustle.com/blog/coffee-extraction-and-how-to-taste-it/


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Hasi said:


> 80g shots are called Humphrey btw.


Unless uou're bathing the shot in milk where it's called Cleopatra!


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Unless uou're bathing the shot in milk where it's called Cleopatra!


only if it's donkey milk, or was it zebra?


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

Donkey



Hasi said:


> ashcroc said:
> 
> 
> > Unless uou're bathing the shot in milk where it's called Cleopatra!
> ...


 Donkey .. I will look if Asda sell it , I fancy a Cleopatra


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## Tonino (Mar 26, 2018)

Hi,

60ml it's not 60g, it's more like 47-50g, I measured many times. That is what I usually like but from slightly less grounds 15-17g into the cup around 47-50g or 60ml of espresso all for around 28sec +-2, using same machine. All these numbers does not matter much as long as you like the drink that you have at the end.

Cheers


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tonino said:


> Hi,
> 
> 60ml it's not 60g, it's more like 47-50g, I measured many times. That is what I usually like but from slightly less grounds 15-17g into the cup around 47-50g or 60ml of espresso all for around 28sec +-2, using same machine. All these numbers does not matter much as long as you like the drink that you have at the end.
> 
> Cheers


 Depends on crema, there is no fixed relationship between ml & g of espresso (I have seen a 65ml shot weigh in at 63g) and lined glasses are generally not calibrated, nor do they have resolution to 1ml, even if they did you still have meniscus & parallax issues.


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