# Iberital MC2 with SMEG ECF01?



## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

Good morning everyone.

A little background to why I am picking the items in the title before I start.

I have only just very recently started my journey into the world of real coffee, having realised that instant coffee isn't actually coffee. Whenever I have tasted coffee using real coffee beans I always seem to enjoy the flavours but have never enjoyed instant.

Now my wife is also a big fan of coffee but she doesn't mind the instant. I'll explain why this matters.

About a couple of weeks ago I got a cafetiere, and pre-ground coffee (shame I know, but I didn't know anything at this point). Read up a little on the best way to make good coffee using the cafetiere (which is when I realised never buy pre-ground coffee). As a beginner it took me around 15 minutes to make the coffee using the cafetiere, including pre-heating the mug, timing all the different steps and weighing everything out. So for the most of the 15 minutes I was actively doing something, whether it was timing or weighing. My wife tried this coffee and she was hugely impressed - this coming form a woman who can't drink any other coffee "cos it doesn't taste as good as her instant coffee".

Why does my wife matter in this? Because if I am getting a coffee machine, she will also want to use it. The reason she doesn't mind instant is for the convenience and she has learnt to like it as priority for her is the fact it's "instant". She just doesn't have the time to be sitting there grinding coffee (2 young critters, so school run etc etc), and honestly I don't think she will ever be bothered to grind the coffee and do it right. So she needs a quick method, but using the coffee machine that I buy. She drinks coffee at least 2-3 times daily. I will be having my coffee once daily during the weekdays and twice daily on the weekends.

Therefore I need to get something that can use ESE pods for convenience for her, but can use ground coffee for when I want to make it right.

The SMEG ECF01 seems to be a decent machine that can do both? Decent by the reviews I read online, perhaps not decent by your lot standards?

The MC2 Auto (non dosing) as that seems to be popular amongst enthusiasts? I don't know much about this grinder, can it do a range from Espresso to Cafetiere? Will I lose much of the beans in the grind path with this machine?

I had picked out the Sage Smart Grinder Pro (which costs approx the same as the MC2 but it was quickly shot down by someone else on another forum, and he then guided me to this forum).

Is there any other machine that can do ground coffee and also ESE pods?

My price range is roughly about what those machines cost, hence picking those out. I will stretch further *IF *I am getting significant improvement for my money, improvement in terms of reliability, performance etc.

Can anyone guide me differently, or have I picked out right given my circumstances? I do want both machines to be reliable. I doubt I will ever get to the "geeky" (with all respect) levels that can exist on a forum like this, but I know I don't like instant, and I do want a good cuppa when I make it.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

Having read a few threads further down, I get the impression that the MC2 isn't all that great?

Rancilio Rocky, non dosing?

Or https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/brands/eureka-mignon-silenzio-15bl-coffee-grinder-50mm-burrs-gloss-black.html ? I read somewhere this Mignon can't do grinds for the cafetiere, is this right? I want the grinder to be able to handle grinds from espresso to cafetiere.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dr Forinor said:


> Having read a few threads further down, I get the impression that the MC2 isn't all that great?
> 
> Rancilio Rocky, non dosing?
> 
> Or https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/brands/eureka-mignon-silenzio-15bl-coffee-grinder-50mm-burrs-gloss-black.html ? I read somewhere this Mignon can't do grinds for the cafetiere, is this right? I want the grinder to be able to handle grinds from espresso to cafetiere.


It's not so much whether the grinder will do grinds for cafetiere (cafetiere will actually use the widest range of grinds of any brew method), it's more that if you set the grinder for espresso & dial it in, you don't want to be upsetting that setting, then trying to get back to it every time you make a cafetiere.

It really would be simplest to get a grinder for espresso & leave it focussed on that, as it is the more sensitive method regarding grind size. Then get a separate grinder for cafetiere.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

MWJB said:


> It's not so much whether the grinder will do grinds for cafetiere (cafetiere will actually use the widest range of grinds of any brew method), it's more that if you set the grinder for espresso & dial it in, you don't want to be upsetting that setting, then trying to get back to it every time you make a cafetiere.
> 
> It really would be simplest to get a grinder for espresso & leave it focussed on that, as it is the more sensitive method regarding grind size. Then get a separate grinder for cafetiere.


Something like the Rocky, is it complicated to dial it in?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Like I mentioned on the other thread, it's best to get a hand grinder for the cafetiere (or if your wife won't use a hand grinder then maybe a Wilfa Svart for ease of grinding for cafetiere).

The MC2 is relatively cheap and small, but noisy and the worm drive adjusting mechanism makes it easy to do minor tweaks, but an utter nightmare to go from brewed (coarse) to espresso (fine and very particular).

In fact, this is a question that comes up all the time, and (to the best of my knowledge) about the only electric grinder that will sit easily in most kitchens and do coarse to fine without huge wastage is the soon-to-be-released "Niche" which will be approx £500 when available.

If simplicity for all family members is your ultimate goal, alongside good coffee with push-button ease, maybe it's worth considering a bean to cup such as the Melitta Varianza which has been the subject of an engineering review and extended testing by our expert reviewer DavecUK.

___

Eat, drink and be merry


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

I'm assuming the SMEG ECF01 using pressurised filter baskets? If so, I wouldn't worry too much about the grinder. Those types of baskets are far less 'fussy' with grind settings. Take a look at the Sage DTP. It may be worth checking if they can use ESE pods.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

I agree with MWJB you cannot readily change between grinds on most machines to extremes Ie espresso and cafetiere. It takes a while to get the grind just right for espresso with small adjustments.

The method of adjustment on the MC2 is by a worm thread= exceedingly slow from one grind setting to another.The MC2 is also very noisy..

I do not know the Smeg you mention but I think you are spending more money on style than machine innards.

To accommodate you and your wife's coffee approach possibly a more prosumer machine and buy a suitable ESE pod basket for your wife to use.

Purchase a grinder to suit espresso and use a hand grinder for the cafetiere.

I would read lots of posts and give plenty of thought before diving in.







:good:


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Or the Sage Barista Express all-in-one which is quite capable of making good coffee once you have dialled in the beans you like. It is a fairly neat option that is more space efficient, you still have the task of preparing the puck and tamping, so there is some involvement over and above a bean-to-cup but the coffee is good (my friend has one and I've used it). Won't break the bank and is a good way to get into home espresso.

___

Eat, drink and be merry


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

hotmetal said:


> Like I mentioned on the other thread, it's best to get a hand grinder for the cafetiere (or if your wife won't use a hand grinder then maybe a Wilfa Svart for ease of grinding for cafetiere).


The problem is I can't get my head around spending ~£100 on a hand grinder, I know myself and I know I'll get real bored real quick of hand grinding - unless it's not as laborious as a £20 hand grinder?



hotmetal said:


> The MC2 is relatively cheap and small, but noisy and the worm drive adjusting mechanism makes it easy to do minor tweaks, but an utter nightmare to go from brewed (coarse) to espresso (fine and very particular).


I think I'm going to give this grinder a miss and keep reading.



hotmetal said:


> In fact, this is a question that comes up all the time, and (to the best of my knowledge) about the only electric grinder that will sit easily in most kitchens and do coarse to fine without huge wastage is the soon-to-be-released "Niche" which will be approx £500 when available.


I was reading about. Problem with this is, there are no real reviews, by true enthusiasts? So do we even know if it's worth it, yet? Or have I missed something?



hotmetal said:


> If simplicity for all family members is your ultimate goal, alongside good coffee with push-button ease, maybe it's worth considering a bean to cup such as the Melitta Varianza which has been the subject of an engineering review and extended testing by our expert reviewer DavecUK.


I will have a look, thank you.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

lake_m said:


> I'm assuming the SMEG ECF01 using pressurised filter baskets? If so, I wouldn't worry too much about the grinder. Those types of baskets are far less 'fussy' with grind settings. Take a look at the Sage DTP. It may be worth checking if they can use ESE pods.


I'm not sure if it has a pressurised basket or not.

I did search but I couldn't find a basket that will accept the ESE that is compatible with the Sage DTP (the Sage DTP was actually first on my list until I discovered it can't take the ESE pods). Can anyone else tell me different?


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

El carajillo said:


> I agree with MWJB you cannot readily change between grinds on most machines to extremes Ie espresso and cafetiere. It takes a while to get the grind just right for espresso with small adjustments.
> 
> The method of adjustment on the MC2 is by a worm thread= exceedingly slow from one grind setting to another.The MC2 is also very noisy..
> 
> ...


That makes a fair bit of sense. Any chance that a decent prosumer machine, which can accept an available ese pod basket, comes to your mind?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dr Forinor said:


> Something like the Rocky, is it complicated to dial it in?


Dialing in is the same procedure for all grinders - pick a brew ratio, stick to it, change the grind setting to steer the taste, decide if the drink is too weak/strong at a good taste, adjust ratio to suit (less water for stronger, more water for weaker), repeat...

The Rocky holds several grams of old grinds, which if left in the grinder for any substantial time, will end up in your next dose & cause confusion. So you will need to purge with 5-6 g of beans before grinding your dose. It's also stepped which may present problems if you're needing to make very fine adjustments, but if you are happy with a wider range of espresso strength will be OK. I got tired of constant purging & sweeping with mine.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

MWJB said:


> The Rocky holds several grams of old grinds, which if left in the grinder for any substantial time, will end up in your next dose & cause confusion. So you will need to purge with 5-6 g of beans before grinding your dose. It's also stepped which may present problems if you're needing to make very fine adjustments, but if you are happy with a wider range of espresso strength will be OK. I got tired of constant purging & sweeping with mine.


Ok, that doesn't sound like something that I could accept long term, it would start to really annoy me. Thanks for pointing it out.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Re: hand grinder for brewed. If just for brewed you can use a Porlex or Rhinowares that will be fine. I only mentioned the Feldgrind and Aergrind because at that point you were asking about a grinder that could do espresso as well. Trying to use one grinder for brewed and espresso is troublesome really. A £30 grinder for your cafetiere is fine, then if you want to concentrate on espresso you can look at espresso grinders.

You may have missed something on the Niche as you are new to the forum. It's been developed by someone with serious pedigree and then pulled apart, reviewed and tested *extensively* by Dave C (who you don't know, but many of us do, and believe me he leaves no stone unturned and calls a spade a spade). Those who took a risk and backed the Niche before Dave reviewed it are now mightily relieved and excitedly looking forward to its release. I wish I was one of them! I think you could buy with confidence, as it's been subjected to a serious amount of testing by someone who knows what they're doing, which is possibly worth many hundreds of happy owner posts.

___

Eat, drink and be merry


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If you buy a Niche grinder, it will cost you a lot more but it will make switching between the two extremes fairly easy I suspect, plus zero retention of grinds, plus it will be capable of living with you for a very long time, regardless of what machines you have. You might as well get over it now matey, if you want to pursue coffee as a hobby, and proper coffee, it is going to cause you a lot of distress and money. You cannot buy experience, nor can you make good coffee on crap equipment. If you could, we would all have cheap equipment.

paracetamol cures headaches, but does not cure cancer. there is a reason a £20 hand grinder will not suffice. The Sage BE mentioned will be good enough, if you bought a Niche @ £500 it will cover all bases, if not a silva t £120 or so plus another £100 or so for a hand grinder, but the more you use it, the more you will dislike it and want something better.......or not as the case maybe


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I am time limited, so not intending to be brutal, just a lot of testing and userguide writing going on...plus beta Minima...he has arrived!

At a quick glance you are looking to spend 420 ish pounds in total including the carafe. You might be assuming the grinder represents a more permanent investment than the machines. so for the avoidance of doubt

1. The grinder is shite

2. The machine is shite

3. ESE pods are shite

Your £420 can be used towards a far better experience for you and your SO. The situation seems to be you don't much like instant, you probably like whats in Starbucks et all and would like to make the same or better at home. Your SO just want a coffee, no fuss no hassle, hence the horrible choice of pods, you are willing to take the time, hence the choice of not great grinder and carafe.

To live the dream a little better and for both of you to enjoy the experience, especially when one of you is time poor.....might be to eschew the normal recommendations by us coffee nuts and for now buy a good BTC machine, lurk around on the forum and treat yourself in a few years time perhaps. Your SO will love it, because you can switch it on and it's ready to go in less than 60s, press a button and it delivers coffee. Every 8 to 10 coffees empty the drip tray and empty ad rinse the puck box which takes 20 seconds in total, or 30 if your slow. A BTC means you can buy some really good ground coffee from speciality roasters, have a huge range of coffees available and it's better for the environment, much cheaper than pods....so in the long run you will actually save money. The coffee produced from the right machine can be quite good.

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2016/07/29/melitta-caffeo-varianza-csp/

Read it....then go buy one. Bella Barista don't sell them any more, I did the review for them but Redbur coffee has been an authorised reseller for years. The review is completely impartial, accurate and honest...if it says it in the review, then it's true. Theres also a tech tour review. Redber have the stainless steel variant at a great £600 and I think you would do well to support a small UK roaster and retailer.

https://www.redber.co.uk/collections/home-bean-to-cup-coffee-machines/products/melitta-caffeo-varianza-csp-stainless-steel?variant=33115664777

https://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/household-appliances/small-kitchen-appliances/coffee-machines-and-accessories/coffee-machines/melitta-caffeo-varianza-csp-f57-0-101-bean-to-cup-coffee-machine-silver-10158357-pdt.html?istCompanyId=bec25c7e-cbcd-460d-81d5-a25372d2e3d7&istItemId=xpwixrtttx&istBid=tztx&srcid=198&cmpid=ppc~gg~0000%20(PLA)%20WHITE%20GOOD%20All%20Products~WHITE%20GOODS%20All%20Products~Exact&mctag=gg_goog_7904&kwid=GOOGLE&device=c&ds_kids=92700020206436023&PLA=1&tgtid=0000%20(PLA)%20WHITE%20GOOD%20All%20Products&gclid=CjwKCAjwkYDbBRB6EiwAR0T_-gItImcNhSo02vdzIe51ZG2gH5yIUNbStMDWRa1apd2BPAuTI52yqBoCnl4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

hotmetal said:


> Re: hand grinder for brewed. If just for brewed you can use a Porlex or Rhinowares that will be fine. I only mentioned the Feldgrind and Aergrind because at that point you were asking about a grinder that could do espresso as well. Trying to use one grinder for brewed and espresso is troublesome really. A £30 grinder for your cafetiere is fine, then if you want to concentrate on espresso you can look at espresso grinders.


I didn't realise trying to use a grinder for more than 1 type of grind can be such a chore - but then I have no experience whatsoever so no surprises there.



hotmetal said:


> You may have missed something on the Niche as you are new to the forum. It's been developed by someone with serious pedigree and then pulled apart, reviewed and tested *extensively* by Dave C (who you don't know, but many of us do, and believe me he leaves no stone unturned and calls a spade a spade). Those who took a risk and backed the Niche before Dave reviewed it are now mightily relieved and excitedly looking forward to its release. I wish I was one of them! I think you could buy with confidence, as it's been subjected to a serious amount of testing by someone who knows what they're doing, which is possibly worth many hundreds of happy owner posts.


Thank you for that, I might actually buying it if it's that good. I know it's way above my current described budget, but if it makes life a whole lot easier and will last then why not.



dfk41 said:


> If you buy a Niche grinder, it will cost you a lot more but it will make switching between the two extremes fairly easy I suspect, plus zero retention of grinds, plus it will be capable of living with you for a very long time, regardless of what machines you have.


With perspective, it makes a decent purchase.



dfk41 said:


> You might as well get over it now matey, if you want to pursue coffee as a hobby, and proper coffee, it is going to cause you a lot of distress and money.


I never planned on pursuing it as a hobby, and at the moment I can't really tell which way it will go.



dfk41 said:


> You cannot buy experience, nor can you make good coffee on crap equipment. If you could, we would all have cheap equipment.


That's the thing, I want good coffee. But then whats good coffee for me, might not be good for you lot?


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> I am time limited, so not intending to be brutal, just a lot of testing and userguide writing going on...plus beta Minima...he has arrived!
> 
> At a quick glance you are looking to spend 420 ish pounds in total including the carafe. You might be assuming the grinder represents a more permanent investment than the machines. so for the avoidance of doubt
> 
> ...


Thank you for your honesty and straight to the point advice. I won't make any rushed decisions yet, will continue to explore.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dr Forinor said:


> That's the thing, I want good coffee. But then whats good coffee for me, might not be good for you lot?


It doesn't much matter, bad or good (from a subjective point of view), you make it via the same mechanisms...grinders that area lot of hassle will still be a lot of hassle whatever your preference/target.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Dr Forinor said:


> Thank you for your honesty and straight to the point advice. I won't make any rushed decisions yet, will continue to explore.


Yes, keep exploring







The Melitta sounds like a really good way to get into 'real coffee' though and seems to tick all the boxes. Remember too, if you do decide to upgrade in the future and you have looked after the Melitta and used bottled water and so forth then it's likely you would be able to sell it on and recoup probably half the cost depending on how long you keep it. Keep the box and all the packaging just in case









Once you know it's for you, and you want to up your game then the Niche paired with an espresso machine will be your next step!


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I think you would not go far wrong if you bought a Niche, it's obviously early days but I imagine it would sell on here in a heartbeat if you got buyer's remorse at any point if looked after. I think it's the only electric grinder that would flip between espresso and brewed with ease (based on what I've seen in person and read). Probably the Varianza I mentioned (and I've just seen that Dave has commented too) is going to be your best bet for price vs taste vs faff vs WAF (wife acceptance factor!)

As for DFK's comment, yes, it's very subjective as to what is good enough. Do bear in mind that anyone who's been on here for any length of time may be bordering on obsessive about getting the best they can, following the rabbit hole and spending thousands! We are a funny lot but it's not necessary to take things to the extreme. Hey, I am fairly engaged with the whole thing but I also have a relatively low 'faff limit' which has informed my choices. I find keeping things consistent is way better than diving into pressure profiling, roasting at home, fiddling with PID settings, endless shot prep etc, most of the time I know what I want and how to get there fairly quickly. Don't feel intimidated - there's a lot to learn at the beginning, and you can keep going forever but you don't have to, once you can produce a drink you are satisfied with. Hopefully we can help you get to that point without making expensive mistakes, and then you can decide how much you want to engage with it beyond that. At the end of the day everyone has a different point at which effort and reward break even. It's just the first bit where you learn what to buy, and how to get good results that you are happy with, that is the unavoidable first hurdle.

___

Eat, drink and be merry


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

Should I just go ahead and buy the Niche Grinder?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Give the Varianza some thought first - similar price to the grinder but it will make coffee rather than just grind it. I'm focusing on the fact you said your other half doesn't want to make a hobby of it, likes instant because it's instant, but will want to enjoy the fruits of the machine whatever you buy. If you were telling us that you had a budget of £1k+ and wanted to explore home espresso as a hobby as well as all the other ways of brewing, the Niche is probably a no- brainer for a good one-stop-shop grinder for all. But as one of you is purely interested in a better coffee for the same time investment as a cup of mellow birds, manual espresso may not suit both of you.

___

Eat, drink and be merry


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

hotmetal said:


> Give the Varianza some thought first - similar price to the grinder but it will make coffee rather than just grind it. I'm focusing on the fact you said your other half doesn't want to make a hobby of it, likes instant because it's instant, but will want to enjoy the fruits of the machine whatever you buy. If you were telling us that you had a budget of £1k+ and wanted to explore home espresso as a hobby as well as all the other ways of brewing, the Niche is probably a no- brainer for a good one-stop-shop grinder for all. But as one of you is purely interested in a better coffee for the same time investment as a cup of mellow birds, manual espresso may not suit both of you.


Yes, yes, you make sense. Ok, BTC machines it is. Thank you. I will read up more on the Varianza.

Any other good BTC machines that cost less?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dr Forinor said:


> Yes, yes, you make sense. Ok, BTC machines it is. Thank you. I will read up more on the Varianza.
> 
> Any other good BTC machines that cost less?


I didn't find any and I tested quite a few over the years. Also plenty of machines that cost twice as much that are half as good!!


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

And the long term reliability of the Varianza? Customer service? I really don't wanna have any issues after purchasing. Obviously every machine can have problems, but the general consensus of the brand?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dr Forinor said:


> And the long term reliability of the Varianza? Customer service? I really don't wanna have any issues after purchasing. Obviously every machine can have problems, but the general consensus of the brand?


Well they give you 2 years warranty, dunno, mine didn't break. If the brew group ever busts a replacement is like £45 and slots in as easy as a printer cartridge, without the mess. don't let it scale up keep it clean it should be good for more than a few years. You will save your money back against the cost of ESE pods, over a few years. Plus it will be quality coffee, *fresh* (not a pre staled pod) and from where you want to buy it...which won't be a supermarket. The difference will be like eating a wonderful value priced 30p wonderloaf compared to artisan bread backed buy a guy (or girl) with thick hairy arms and a beard.

I used to buy £50 pond pumps because I thought they saved me money they used around 370 to 400W and lasted around 4 years if I was lucky (the second one only lasted 3 years)

http://www.argos.co.uk/product/2300540

in 24 hours, I would use 9.6kw of electric to run my pond!!!! I finally bit the bullet and got an "expensive" pond pump. It cost about £160 used 100W or just under.....BUT, it pumped 4 times the amount of water of the cheap pumps, for 4 times less power consumption. I went from 9 kW of electric per day to just over 2kW. it saved me £1 per day, but cost me £110 extra, as you can imagine after 3.5 months I got the extra I saved back. I have had the pond for 22 years and this expensive pump has been in for 15 years now....a few impeller blades have fractured at the tips and perhaps it might only go on for another 3 years...but who cares....I saved more than £5400 in electricity vs the cheap pump.

Like for Like coffee quality beans vs ese pods or Nespresso are any type of colon Dashy type of pods/capsules are going to work out a hell of a lot more than great "fresh" coffee from quality online roasters. It will allow you to buy a car if it stops you drinking coffees when out.

P.S. Remember BTC machines tend never to get tested and reviewed by grumpy (but very knowledgeable and experienced) old gits like me. if it makes you feel any better I was almost excommunicated by Jura (who don't like me at all).


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I should add that I think I did 700 shots on mine during testing....or it's done 700, I can't remember which...I'm getting old.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Hahaha I only ever buy artisan bread if it is baked by a girl with a beard and hairy arms LMAO!

___

Eat, drink and be merry


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

@DavecUK : Thank you. I think the Varianza is now obviously at the top of my list.

Just bought a hand grinder for my cafetiere for the time being.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

your other half will thank you!


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

And I, thank you









And a big thank you to all else who helped in this thread. I know most of what I was asking has probably been asked many times before, so thanks for having the patience.

I'm going to keep an eye on the Varianza and try and nab one in some sort of sales or whatever. I've managed this long, I can wait a little longer.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

Meanwhile, I've bought a hand grinder for my cafetiere.


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## xxb (Jul 18, 2018)

I know people are telling you here that the setup you wanted to buy is crap, but if you are just getting into coffee and just dabbling I wouldn't advise that you just jump in and spend loads, I am new to coffee myself as an interest. I purchased a delonghi dedica about 4 months ago which I learnt a lot from it, I only sold it last week as I upgraded to a sage barista express. I learnt my technique of weighing tamping and dialling in my grinder using that machine. I actually though it was a bad machine because my shots always tasted a little sour, not awful just not quite right. I discovered just before I sold the dedica that actually it was never anything wrong with the coffee machine it was just my grinder wasn't producing a fine enough grind even on the finest setting. I was using a bodum bistro grinder.

I made a few shots on the dedica using the grinder from the sage machine and it tasted good to me with a minor adjustment in grind size just a tiny bit finer that the bodum grinder couldn't manage.

I see you were considering the smeg machine well the delonghi dedica is the same machine just a different appearance and costs half the price. infact I seen for £140 from J C Campbell electricals.

Don't get me wrong I know an espresso machine like the smeg and dedica has it limitations and most people who are serious about there coffee would laugh at you for using it, but I just think its madness to rush out and spend a huge amount of money at the very beginning of your interest in coffee, unless your loaded and money is no object then I would say of course rush out and buy the Rocket or whatever machine you fancy with all the bells and whistles.

In summary if your on a budjet and just deciding if coffee is for you and want a machine to play around with, the dlonghi dedica is worth looking at, you were considering the smeg and the delonghi is the same as it. It also takes the e.s.e pods you wanted to use. Or have a look at the dualit 4 in 1 it takes ese pods plus has adaptors for nespresso etc and good point about the dualit it has a traditional steam wand.

side note don't want backlash for suggesting a setup that doesn't cost like over £1000, The preference I would have suggested would have been sage duo temp pro paired with sage smart grinder or the Sage barista express, however since ese pods is something the they want to use it rules out those setups.

I am suggesting a machine that costs like £140 not a huge outlay use it learn from it, then sell and upgrade or maybe at that stage you will have discovered that coffee isn't for you and you have not wasted much money. There is few modifications I made to the dedica like unpressurized baskets and a bottomless portafilter and modifying the steam wand. It was a good first machine.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

louiseb said:


> I know people are telling you here that the setup you wanted to buy is crap, but if you are just getting into coffee and just dabbling I wouldn't advise that you just jump in and spend loads, I am new to coffee myself as an interest. I purchased a delonghi dedica about 4 months ago which I learnt a lot from it, I only sold it last week as I upgraded to a sage barista express. I learnt my technique of weighing tamping and dialling in my grinder using that machine. I actually though it was a bad machine because my shots always tasted a little sour, not awful just not quite right. I discovered just before I sold the dedica that actually it was never anything wrong with the coffee machine it was just my grinder wasn't producing a fine enough grind even on the finest setting. I was using a bodum bistro grinder.
> 
> I made a few shots on the dedica using the grinder from the sage machine and it tasted good to me with a minor adjustment in grind size just a tiny bit finer that the bodum grinder couldn't manage.
> 
> ...


Not backlash, more my observations having been there.

Reading through the thread, B2C sounds like the way to go in this instance (wife wanting good coffee quickly).

The danger with buying espresso on a budget is that many are put off with poor results and the machines end up gathering dust. I initially thought that I could make quality espresso on a £300 budget. Used Francis Francis and new MC2 later, I made variable drinks with a lot of hassle. That setup stayed with me for about a month.

It is as easy to learn technique on a mid to high end setup as it is on a budget setup. Scratch that - its easier on mid to high end machines as the equipment is more consistent (grind quality, temperature stability) which takes away some of the variables.

I cant justify my spend on equipment - significant birthday present to me and a grinder upgrade but, as you suggest, I had the spare funds to buy and I'm happy that I did.


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## xxb (Jul 18, 2018)

Dr Forinor said:


> Meanwhile, I've bought a hand grinder for my cafetiere.


which hand grinder did you go with? I have a hario mini mill it does a decent job.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

louiseb said:


> which hand grinder did you go with? I have a hario mini mill it does a decent job.


I went with this one https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-grinders/hand-coffee-grinders/tiamo-hand-grinder-ceramic-burrs-black.html purely because of that website in specific selling it, I assume I can trust their judgement.

You have me thinking about getting a cheaper setup now though.... I'm confused


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

louiseb said:


> In summary if your on a budjet and just deciding if coffee is for you and want a machine to play around with, the dlonghi dedica is worth looking at, you were considering the smeg and the delonghi is the same as it. It also takes the e.s.e pods you wanted to use. Or have a look at the dualit 4 in 1 it takes ese pods plus has adaptors for nespresso etc and good point about the dualit it has a traditional steam wand.


The Delonghi Dedica, is that a pressurised or non-pressurised basket? Does it come with a tamp?


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## xxb (Jul 18, 2018)

Dr Forinor said:


> I went with this one https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-grinders/hand-coffee-grinders/tiamo-hand-grinder-ceramic-burrs-black.html purely because of that website in specific selling it, I assume I can trust their judgement.
> 
> You have me thinking about getting a cheaper setup now though.... I'm confused


I can only tell you from my experience. I am glad I started out with the cheap setup, I learnt from it and learnt yes I want to pursue coffee as an interest, so have now upgraded. But wouldn't lime to have spent loads to discover that coffee wasn't for me. remember there is limit to how much you will get back if selling equipment second hand.

the delonghi dedica in my opinion has a lot of pros and a few cons, but you can achieve a decent tasting espresso once you have dialled your grinder in and got

your tamp correct. I know its not going to be in the same league as a really expensive machine but you can have fun learning, and still have get something decent tasting.

Just get a decent grinder although to be honest if you don't mind hand grinding the hario can give fantastic results for espresso.

look at this way the dedica is £140 new you can have your fun using it and leaning and of course enjoying the coffee for a while and decide if coffee is for you, then is you decide you want an upgrade stick the dedica on ebay fetches around £70 then you wont have lost much.

The ese pods make an ok coffee nice enough, and as quick to use as a pod machine but taste better and more environmentally friendly, your wife can have a quick hassle free coffee, and you can enjoy learning and deciding if coffee is for you. Also look at the dualit espresivo or dualit 4 in 1.

I personally wasn't in the position to spend loads so plumped for the cheap setup and then upgraded to sage barista express 4 months later. Actually discovered I didn't need to upgrade coffee machine just grinder.


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## xxb (Jul 18, 2018)

Dr Forinor said:


> The Delonghi Dedica, is that a pressurised or non-pressurised basket? Does it come with a tamp?


grinder looks decent enough similar to the hario, ceramic burrs always a good thing.


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## xxb (Jul 18, 2018)

sorry the baskets are pressurized but I purchased unpressurized from ebay fro £3, it includes a tamp but the tamp is rubbish plastic, I bough a stainless steel from ebay for £13.

look if you buy the dedica pm I can send you links to items I purchased to modify and pictures and explanations of modifications.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

louiseb said:


> I know people are telling you here that the setup you wanted to buy is crap, but if you are just getting into coffee and just dabbling I wouldn't advise that you just jump in and spend loads, I am new to coffee myself as an interest. I purchased a delonghi dedica about 4 months ago which I learnt a lot from it, I only sold it last week as I upgraded to a sage barista express. I learnt my technique of weighing tamping and dialling in my grinder using that machine. I actually though it was a bad machine because my shots always tasted a little sour, not awful just not quite right. I discovered just before I sold the dedica that actually it was never anything wrong with the coffee machine it was just my grinder wasn't producing a fine enough grind even on the finest setting. I was using a bodum bistro grinder.


Louise, I normally stay silent after these sort of threads reach a certain point....simply because I have said my piece and the original poster can either choose to ignore it, listen or ask questions. I've experience of perhaps 100 machines now, different makes, models upgrades of old models, prototypes, pieces of crap, loads of different BTC machines, grinders, roasters....you name it. reviewing, testing, prototyping and designing. In the first sentence of your post, where you admit you know nothing, you minimise or dismiss the comments of far more experienced members. Some of who...like me, carefully read the OP requirements and constraints. For example he doesn't *want* to use pods, he mentions it because he doesn't understand any other way round it and still meeting his requirements.



> Don't get me wrong I know an espresso machine like the smeg and dedica has it limitations and most people who are serious about there coffee would laugh at you for using it, but I just think its madness to rush out and spend a huge amount of money at the very beginning of your interest in coffee, unless your loaded and money is no object then I would say of course rush out and buy the Rocket or whatever machine you fancy with all the bells and whistles.


I wasn't laughing then and I'm not laughing now. I have always been happy to suggest a £30 to a £3000+ solution to people, depending on their stated need (and the person). Whether they themselves have stated their needs correctly or misunderstood their needs is another thing entirely. you are suggesting a machine coupled with a not very good grinder and it would not meet all his stated needs. I suggested a £600 solution meeting all his needs and some..It would pretty much* guarantee decent enough coffee* with minimal effort and allow beans from all roasters. IF and it's a big if, he decided to take it further and go down the rabbit hole, or (unlikely) pull back to instant within a few years...he can simply list it at £300 and sell it, no harm done. it's small compact and just needs beans.

You seem to think all "experts" are ignorantly obsessive and unable to see the simpler requirement and be happy to tell people that....well that's not true. I had little time when I first posted, but I have finished a major coffee project and have more time now.....time to tell you that to make assumptions/generalisations about coffee nuts is not a great idea. I don't usually review cheap stuff (although I might engineering test it) and increasingly don't review even normal prosumer stuff any more, because it's not personally interesting to me, or trying to break new ground. However that doesn't mean I won't recommend it if it's the right solution. I would far rather see people get a cheap grinder and carafe, than use instant, a BTC machine rather than Nespresso, a cheap prosumer rather than a BTC, a dual boiler rather than a HX, etc...BUT it's step by step and there is a height to which people won't (and don't want to) climb any further. The saddest thing in the world is someone who over spends, gets something far beyond what they want or need....all because they are swept up by threads on a forum....the second saddest is someone who under spends, enjoys a poor experience and upgrades fairly quickly.


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## xxb (Jul 18, 2018)

fair enough I see I am not allowed an opinion on this forum unless it agrees with you "experts". I wasn't advocating the dedica as the best machine I was saying it was affordable in the original posters budjet, it accepts ese pods that he wanted from a machine for convenience for his wife, plus its a setup that that allows them to have a little fun and learn instead of a superautomatic that entails pushing a button. It tastes ok not wonderful but ok,

Actually DavecUK you actually strike me a quite rude, your sarcastic comments to me when I first joined the forum were anything but helpful. I guess its just not a very friendly forum this and wont post again for fear of getting my nose bitten off yet again!!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

louiseb said:


> fair enough I see I am not allowed an opinion on this forum unless it agrees with you "experts". I wasn't advocating the dedica as the best machine I was saying it was affordable in the original posters budjet, it accepts ese pods that he wanted from a machine for convenience for his wife, plus its a setup that that allows them to have a little fun and learn instead of a superautomatic that entails pushing a button. It tastes ok not wonderful but ok,
> 
> Actually DavecUK you actually strike me a quite rude, your sarcastic comments to me when I first joined the forum were anything but helpful. I guess its just not a very friendly forum this and wont post again for fear of getting my nose bitten off yet again!!


Fine by me, saves me having to add you to my Ignore list


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## Gordonac (Dec 12, 2014)

Dr Forinor said:


> You have me thinking about getting a cheaper setup now though.... I'm confused


It seems, having read what you want, that the bean to cup machine is the way forward. I had no idea they could be any good. I think I'm going to start pestering my boss to put one at work!

You could buy a grinder and machine capable of using pods, but you still have to put the pod in and make the coffee, and my experience of Nespresso pods was they were never strong enough so I would use 2 pods, which was even more time consuming! Plus you'll have to froth the milk for lates (that takes time and practice) or boil a kettle for americano etc. But that bean to cup machine (the varianza) makes you a variety of coffees on the touch of a button!

And, as said before, the pods are expensive, around 40p a pod for good ones. So I was spending 80p per coffee for around 16g of coffee when a good quality bag of 250g freshly roasted beans only costs £6-£8.

But finally, for me, the biggest issue with pods is the waste. This article sums up the issue https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35605927

My advice, would be to steer clear of a grinder and espresso machine for now. See how you get on with that coffee and if you fancy getting more hands on you could invest in grinders and a machine later on.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If someone comes onto a forum and asks for advice, you can bet your bottom dollar that they are going to receive some. trouble is with opinion, it can differ widely from person to person and because it is opinion, can be equally as right as the next persons opinion. if the OP wants to believe in half of the guff written in reply, then that is up to him. When you ask for an opinion, you usually end up being told what that person themselves has or has done.......and for them, that is right as everyone thinks that whatever path they take is the correct one......it may well be for them but that does not make it right for the next person.

The best thing the op can do, is read it all, then go away and do his own research including visiting establishments to view any short list......not believe in what he is told. There is one caveat, which is if the advice is being given by someone who actually knows what they are talking about, then although they might not want to hear the answer, it is probably fairly accurate


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Gordonac said:


> But finally, for me, the biggest issue with pods is the waste. This article sums up the issue https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35605927.


ESE pods are paper, like tea bags.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MWJB said:


> ESE pods are paper, like tea bags.


They are Mark and of course that part of the system is fine for food recycling....so I don't have a problem with that, the BBC article is about capsules. I have 4 concerns with pods:

1. There is the plastic or foil lined plastic over pack for each pod and then the attractive box they all have to come in. All printed, manufactured...a lot of packaging (not all of it recyclable) just so you can buy 350g of coffee in 50 pods

2. The cost of the pods are treble what equivalent quality whole bean would be

3. No matter what they say, that coffee is old and looses a huge amount of quality when powder ground into a pod

4. It creates a non value add convenience into the coffee chain that is ultimately not good for the consumer or the coffee world in general...it even affects us!!

Supporting the use of *quality* whole bean, is one of the best things we can do for farmers, roasters and all of us who enjoy great quality coffee. I say quality wholebean to try and exclude supermarket whole bean coffee from this. Supermarket coffee beans are good to perhaps introduce someone to the idea that something different and better exists.......but really it's ultimately bad for all of us if it gets a hold.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> They are Mark and of course that part of the system is fine for food recycling....so I don't have a problem with that, the BBC article is about capsules. I have 4 concerns with pods:
> 
> 1. There is the plastic or foil lined plastic over pack for each pod and then the attractive box they all have to come in. All printed, manufactured...a lot of packaging (not all of it recyclable) just so you can buy 350g of coffee in 50 pods
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with much of what you say, but generally waste is an issue the industry as whole likes to talk about, but does very little. Nespresso (which had nothing to with this thread until @Gordonac 's link) is an easy & soft target, but most companies aren't great.

Typically a delivery of coffee, to me, will consist of a bag of beans (usually foil & plastic composite), often wrapped in tissue, accompanied with a card/photo, in a box, sometimes all contained in a second box.

Has Bean are probably the best on this front, bag in a polylope, recycling service if you return the used bags. Talor & Jorgen use compostable bags in a card carton.

Outside people who are a bit obsessed, whole bean coffee isn't really a thing. I know loads of people who love coffee, enjoy good quality coffee when it is made for them, but will never, ever consider buying a grinder. Introduction doesn't necessarily lead to conversion, even if the benefits are tangible, most of the time it's a nice treat. A friend said recently that it definitely taste better when ground before brewing, luckily for them, they know a mug with a grinder 

A typical foil & plastic 250g coffee bag weighs 14-15g and holds around 14 portions (18g dose, fewer portions allowing for any waste). 14 servings of Nespresso produces 15.4g of aluminium & plastic waste (most folk seem to treat a capsule as a serving).

I don't know what the answer is, but I suspect if widespread adoption/significant impact is the intent, it will probably involve preserved pre ground (inert gas/vacuum) & reusable packaging with a return/refill service.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

It's also worth noting that the Hamburg example is always raised with respect to coffee capsules, but it was much more extensive & banned council employees from bringing any food with identified undesirable packaging into work, such as bottled water & pre packaged sandwiches.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2016/07/29/melitta-caffeo-varianza-csp/
> 
> Read it....then go buy one. Bella Barista don't sell them any more, I did the review for them but Redbur coffee has been an authorised reseller for years. The review is completely impartial, accurate and honest...if it says it in the review, then it's true. Theres also a tech tour review. Redber have the stainless steel variant at a great £600 and I think you would do well to support a small UK roaster and retailer.
> 
> https://www.redber.co.uk/collections/home-bean-to-cup-coffee-machines/products/melitta-caffeo-varianza-csp-stainless-steel?variant=33115664777


How is the Melitta Caffeo Barista TS?

Reason I ask, and this might be silly, but I wanna make sure the innard workings and coffee making abilities etc are carried on to the more expensive model? The reason I am looking at the Caffeo TS is it has the ability to make 21 drinks, as opposed to the 10 in Varianza. If I am spending a few hundred pounds, another £75 (the Caffeo TS is on for £675) won't make a huge difference? Should I do it, or is there a way to program the Varianza to make those other 11 drinks that don't come with it from factory?


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## Dumnorix (Dec 29, 2017)

Having checked up on this I don't think the machine can actually make 21 drinks- see below from the Melitta website.

Thanks to the product buttons you can make the 4 classics espresso, café crème, cappuccino and latte macchiato at the touch of a button. The recipe book feature allows you to create 17 further coffee specialities such as flat white, ristretto, americano or espresso doppio.

I would personally say that this is just a marketing gimmick, as I can't imagine wanting to create that many coffee based drinks- I would have thought espresso, Americano/ long black, latte, piccolo, flat white, cappuccino, cortado and macchiato would be more than enough to start with. I would imagine going up to 21 drinks will include things like coffee cocktails etc.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

The reason I ask is I actually really like Flat Whites. I can't see that in the Varianza description, but I can see it in the Caffeo Barista TS description.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dr Forinor said:


> How is the Melitta Caffeo Barista TS?
> 
> Reason I ask, and this might be silly, but I wanna make sure the innard workings and coffee making abilities etc are carried on to the more expensive model? The reason I am looking at the Caffeo TS is it has the ability to make 21 drinks, as opposed to the 10 in Varianza. If I am spending a few hundred pounds, another £75 (the Caffeo TS is on for £675) won't make a huge difference? Should I do it, or is there a way to program the Varianza to make those other 11 drinks that don't come with it from factory?


 @Dumnorix has absolutely hit the nail on the head here. In the way I recommend using the machine (see the review), mostly you won't use the full range of built in drinks. Espresso is the basis of all drinks....and ideally you will use a kettle. The only time I used the machine to do a whole drink was. I get up and have 4 minutes before I have to leave to take kids to school. I switch on machine, after a minute it's ready, I hit the button for an Americano, let the machine do coffee and hot water....then add milk, neck it and leave.

I'll try and sum up what I felt were the key differences between TS barista and the Varianza as the coffee making bits are identical.

*TS Barista has*

Soft buttons, not real ones - Varianza has real buttons, the Luddite in me prefers these

Bigger water tank -sure, if you are going to use the machines water more, then I suppose it's handy

Bean Hopper is split into 2 compartments, so 2 beans on the go - I prefer the "my bean select" or whatever it's called, the opportunity to use any coffee you like at any time on the Varianza, far superior idea, in a B&B perhaps the Barista would do well with decaf and normal etc..

Can store drink profiles for different users - so complicated I didn't use it and I'm a computer nerd, I think more of a gimmick than useful.

Has coffee powder hatch - why would you ever want to use preground. More importantly it's a ballache during the cleaning cycle when they expect you to drop a tablet in, rather than in the varianza, where you get asked to remove the brew group and pop a tablet in the chamber. If like me, you are a tight git and object to paying loads for their special tablets, you will have a big tub of puly and put about 1/3 of a teaspoon in the grind chamber on the Varianza instead of a tablet, difficult in a relatively moist ground coffee hatch. This can be overcome though (I think)

Is larger - I suppose handy because the drip tray is a little bigger, perhaps a few more coffees between empties

Bean hopper - slightly more complexity with two hatches to dispense beans as the machines dispense into a holding area, then grind all the coffee out from that area, this means no broken beans and bits to go really stale for the next cup. Pretty much a feature unique to those machines and exactly what coffee nuts try and do when single dosing! The problem is cheap beans with lots of broken beans (e,g, starbuck or costas own), are more likely to jam up these hatch flaps a bit. I know this because a very good friend has a TS barista. As soon as he used beans without the little broken bits...just slightly better quality the problem went away. The varianza is more resistant to this with a lightly different shaped single hatch flap (able to cope with shite beans a bit better.

So it's difficult...with a significant price difference, it's a no brainer...... Sure a small £75 difference pretty much makes any price difference irrelevant. I notice Redber have sold out of the £600 priced Varianza now..

The cleaning tablet thing can probably be overcome, as I seem to remember if the brew mechanism is removed when it asks for a tablet in the hatch, puly powder put in, the replace brew mech, the cycle continues and you only need to open and close the powdered coffee hatch for it to think you put a tablet in. I may have tested it it was a while ago now and I can't remember. The machines (certainly the barista TS have had software upgrades since, so may not work the same now). The twin hopper thing is fine if you don't use crap beans. The coffee and drinks are going to be as good. and the drip tray will be a tad larger, although it might well be programmed to ask for emptying of liquid and pucks at the same intervals as the varianza

So really the key differences are footprint, larger water tank and the ability at any time to remove the bean scoop from the top, and use any coffee you like...this wonderful feature the Barista TS doesn't have....which is a real shame. For me I might have 4 or 5 different coffees on the go, for most people it's unlikely they will have more than a couple of coffees on hand at any one time...This means the my bean sleect, may not be that important for you.

I suppose at or close to the same price, you have to decide the features that are important to you and for you the slightly more expensive TS may make sense....They are both very good.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I was going to recommend a BTC machine but I see you've already been convinced. Well, once already.

You seemed very easily tempted by louiseb's comments to change your mind and start looking for a cheap machine and grinder, which suggests you like the idea of doing it manually. Something to consider if you're going to start being tempted to go the manual route again between now and the time you buy your machine:

From what I read you are only making coffee for yourself at the weekend? Or are having one a day at the most? So going down the rabbit hole and spending 1k on a machine and a further £400+ on a grinder, + £200 on accessories like baskets and tampers is likely going to be overkill unless it's going to be a hobby. Starting off cheap with crap machines is never the intelligent route. You will only lose money when you upgrade. LouiseB has ungraded in six months and lost £70 in the process (50% of purchase price), repeat that again in another six months and repeat it again for the grinder and you'll find yourself a good £300 down in no time. I purchased an Expobar DB a few years ago and have since seen it gain value because of the exchange rate. If I were to sell it, especially on ebay, I probably wouldn't lose any money at all. I started off with a delonghi and it was crap with anything resembling a decent grind and fresh coffee, so I switched to a Pavoni lever (not for you at all) and loved it before wanting a proper 58mm machine...In that time I had bought an Iberital MC2 and sold at a loss and a Eureka Mignon which I sold at a loss before getting a commercial 83mm burr grinder and two top quality hand grinders. I might make a small loss selling them on when the time comes but they've been well worth it.

But I'm a roaster. It makes sense for me to spend that much as it is a hobby and I do want to be able to get the best out of my beans. If it weren't for the fact I roast my own I would have got the BTC you're thinking of getting.

So in short you really do need to get the BTC machine. It ticks all the boxes. It will let your wife get used to drinking good coffee and then maybe in a few years time you can go the manual route and you'll both enjoy it...

One final thing:

Do not, under any circumstances, get the Dualit 4 in 1. I don't know what experience @louiseb has with one, but it is absolute trash. My parents had one and watching them make coffee was painful. They needed to put a filter paper in the basket to stop it getting clogged up and the 'espresso' it produced was luke warm. They contacted dualit customer services and were told it was working properly. Those machines and similar aren't designed for use with fresh coffee and using an unpressurised filter with them will only be an improvement.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

@DavecUK @Rob1

Thanks for your lengthy and helpful replies.

Dave: My only reason (pretty much) was asking about the Barista TS was due to the Melitta website mentioning that the Barista does Flat Whites, but not mentioning the Flat White in the description for the Varianza. I do enjoy my Flat Whites.

Rob: I was easily swayed but I think I hadn't thought it all through properly in my head. The more I think about it, yes I do want to prepare my own beans etc etc but I don't realistically see me getting to the level of hobby as you guys. So really I do want/need a BTC machine.

But yeh, my small concern with the Varianza is, will it make my Flat White for me? HAHA!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dr Forinor said:


> But yeh, my small concern with the Varianza is, will it make my Flat White for me? HAHA!


The Varianza is no more (or less) capable of creating a proper flat white than a TS Barista. The way they froth the milk is identical. The foam produced from all these BTC machines is not the same as microfoam on a prosumer machine. Even with a prosumer machine many struggle to properly produce microfoam and some machines are much better steamers than others.

The Varianza and Barista, passs milk through an insta frother that mixes it with steam and produces something foamy. it's so cool that in any quantity, you really need to give it a 20s blast in a microwave. Is it worse than something in starbucks et al...no it an infinitely better drink, because of the beans. However that smooth silky mouthfeel of a flat white made with fresh beans on a proper prosumer or better grade machine by a skilled Barista...no, it won't do that, neither will other BTC machines.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

I had a good review (with myself, having conversations with myself about this) about all of this last night, and really logically/rationally speaking, I think the BTC machine will suit me better than a grinder and espresso machine.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dr Forinor said:


> Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
> 
> I had a good review (with myself, having conversations with myself about this) about all of this last night, and really logically/rationally speaking, I think the BTC machine will suit me better than a grinder and espresso machine.


From your initial post and everything you have said...probably.

I of course hope that one day you will decide to take the plunge and go down the rabbit hole of coffee excellence....if you don't, at least you will get the best beverage you can without having to make and effort and help promote good coffee, roasters whilst minimising environmental impact. If you do, perhaps the machine can be left for general convenience and any new toy used exclusively by you.

P.S. I should add that a cheap but good quality BTC can often produce a much better drink in unskilled hands than a cheap machine and grinder in those same unskilled hands.....


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> P.S. I should add that a cheap but good quality BTC can often produce a much better drink in unskilled hands than a cheap machine and grinder in those same unskilled hands.....


That makes perfect sense.

My wife said to me last night (since she knows what I'm like) that if I don't end up making a good coffee the first few times, I'll get really frustrated and just not use the grinder/machine at all and it'll all be a waste. This BTC method I can buy whichever beans I feel like and enjoy a decent cup.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

In terms of cleaning tablets, descaling etc etc, do I need to buy official stuff? Or can I buy a different brands? Any recommendations, please?


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## xxb (Jul 18, 2018)

Rob1 said:


> I was going to recommend a BTC machine but I see you've already been convinced. Well, once already.
> 
> You seemed very easily tempted by louiseb's comments to change your mind and start looking for a cheap machine and grinder, which suggests you like the idea of doing it manually. Something to consider if you're going to start being tempted to go the manual route again between now and the time you buy your machine:
> 
> ...


I have absolutely no experience of dualit 4 in 1only suggested it as original poster stated they wanted a machine that would accept ese pods, also I never advocated the dedica as the best option I said if they were already considering the smeg then look at the dedica as its basically the same machine just half the price.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dr Forinor said:


> In terms of cleaning tablets, descaling etc etc, do I need to buy official stuff? Or can I buy a different brands? Any recommendations, please?


For cleaning buy a tub of Puly Caf, if you buy your machine from redber, ask them to add a 900g tub for you....it will last you years and if you ever decide on a prosumer machine work in those as well. basically you just put 1/3 of a teaspoon in instead of a tablet. The machines come with cleaner, a few tablets n stuff anyway. Milk cleaner it comes with some, but I found they stay so clean you don't really need it and can just wash the steam bits normally by removing them from the grouphead bit and using warm soapy water, then put them back.

Descaling...yeah really try and avoid that, they come with an in tank water filter, use those and boiler safe water (bottled as well if you can). They do have a descaling program though and I think they come with a bit of descaler as well.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

https://www.ecookshop.co.uk/ecookshop/product.asp?pid=6733247

This doesn't have the same model number as the current one, but it is a Varianza, so I assume it's a previous model. Is this one good? The reasonn I ask is there is a healthy saving, but if it's not as good as the current model I'll avoid it.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dr Forinor said:


> https://www.ecookshop.co.uk/ecookshop/product.asp?pid=6733247
> 
> This doesn't have the same model number as the current one, but it is a Varianza, so I assume it's a previous model. Is this one good? The reasonn I ask is there is a healthy saving, but if it's not as good as the current model I'll avoid it.


It's because it's the CS, you want the CSP


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

So a Melitta Varianza CSP has arrived in the post for me today, will unpack and set it up when I get home from work









Any tips on grind settings (the switch thing on the back?), and useful info in setting it all up, please?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dr Forinor said:


> So a Melitta Varianza CSP has arrived in the post for me today, will unpack and set it up when I get home from work
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mines in the workshop at the moment for when I'm roasting, so working from memory...

Grinder setting - keep it where it's set or go 1 finer only


Coffee amount: 25 ml to 220 ml *(I think I use 30ml)*

Milk amount or milk froth amount: 25 ml to 220 ml (depends on milk amount wanted and size of container)

Hot water amount: 25 ml to 220 ml (175ml, for chinese tea, or a teabag)

Coffee strength: Very mild, mild, normal, strong, very strong (Strong or *Very strong my preference*, this determines the amount of coffee used per shot and the dwell time)

Temperature: Low, normal, high (high, nothing less will do)


Don't forget to remove brew unit weekly spray (wipe brish gently) with food safe antibac cleaner rinse off and dry. You can lube any moving bits with silicone lube ocassionally I use a spray onto a cotton bud for the lubing). Wipe brew unit chamber in damp cloth with antibac.

Enjoy...


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

Excellent, thanks.

I got this unit second hand (from a user on here in fact) so I don't know what the factory setting for the grinder would be?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dr Forinor said:


> Excellent, thanks.
> 
> I got this unit second hand (from a user on here in fact) so I don't know what the factory setting for the grinder would be?


Usually in the middle


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