# Grind finer, extract more



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Following the recent threads on here about grinding finer and extracting more I got rather excited at the prospect of doing exactly this with my new RR55OD - especially now the static issue is solved.

However everything is tasting horrible.

I'm pulling around 32 grams from around 17.5 grams (1.8ish) but I'm getting nasty flavours.

I think this is a distribution issue but I'm low on ideas to solve it. Been doing wdt but not having much joy.

Tamping seems ok - and even - but flow through coffee seems to be uneven!

Any help at all would be great! (Please)

Could this be a new burrs related issue?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Grind finer - dose lower - extract more , is dependant on some degree to being able to manipulate the time of pre infusion ( like a lever does or pressure profiling machine does ) ....

But what are the nasty flavours .....bitters? sour?

what is the coffee your using , what are the tasting notes ?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Erm. I wish I knew the difference between bitter and sour.

One of those!

Was using rave Rwandan - now on Nicaraguan Finca El Bosque 2512 also from rave.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jonc said:


> Erm. I wish I knew the difference between bitter and sour.
> 
> One of those!
> 
> Was using rave Rwandan - now on Nicaraguan Finca El Bosque 2512 also from rave.


Ok so looking at that coffee

its a light to medium roast with notes of Strawberry

It has a recipe on the website of a ratio 1 to 2 ( coffee to water )

So how about 17.5 g in 35-36g out over 25-30 seconds

does this make it sweeter or more balanced ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Also , have you tried it as brewed , do you like the taste of it


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

jonc said:


> Erm. I wish I knew the difference between bitter and sour.


Sour is more akin to acidic notes and perceived with taste buds on side of tongue. Bitter is associated with over-extraction and is perceived at the back of the tongue.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Drop the dose, increase the ratio. I haven't sold an espresso made at anything lower than 1:2 since we began. So try 17 in 34 out.

JP


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jonc said:


> Erm. I wish I knew the difference between bitter and sour.
> 
> One of those!
> 
> Was using rave Rwandan - now on Nicaraguan Finca El Bosque 2512 also from rave.


Sounds gross but lick some ear wax = bitter.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Bitter is lemon peel, sour is lemon juice.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

What do the last drips out of the PF taste like?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Has the op not stated he has new burrs? Until these are seasoned properly, he will never achieve anything but mediocrity. Can he confirm how new the burrs are


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Video video video


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Video video video


Watch'n'sniff?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Sounds gross but lick some ear wax = bitter.


Last time it was ladybird chemical alarm substance


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ok so looking at that coffee
> 
> its a light to medium roast with notes of Strawberry
> 
> ...


Thanks - I tried this again following a few tweaks and aimed for 1:2 ratio; it was better - but still had an aftertaste.



The Systemic Kid said:


> Sour is more akin to acidic notes and perceived with taste buds on side of tongue. Bitter is associated with over-extraction and is perceived at the back of the tongue.


I'd guess partial over extraction; that's my instinct.



MWJB said:


> What do the last drips out of the PF taste like?


Will try this tomorrow (actually today - Merry Christmas!)



dfk41 said:


> Has the op not stated he has new burrs? Until these are seasoned properly, he will never achieve anything but mediocrity. Can he confirm how new the burrs are


My burrs are super new. Maybe 1-1.25kg old.

What effect does this have on results of grind/cup? I'd heard plenty of people talking about seasoning burrs - but I'd never really grasped what this did in real terms - and whether it was essential, desirable or pointless!

All advice welcome!


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Happy new year! Quick bump!


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

MWJB said:


> What do the last drips out of the PF taste like?


This, actually. The last few drips are going to give you a good indication on just how extracted your pull is.


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

Scotford said:


> This, actually. The last few drips are going to give you a good indication on just how extracted your pull is.


Why?


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

If you're getting a full tasting drip then you're under extracting. If its over extracted you'll get clear drips


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

Scotford said:


> If you're getting a full tasting drip then you're under extracting. If its over extracted you'll get clear drips


I didn't know this.. Thanks!


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

So, taking that to its logical conclusion...

If I'm already as fine as the grinder will go and am still under extracting, what are the options?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mark , how do you know your under extracting , based on taste?

Tate of the whole drink , for the first drips? Which i dont get tbh, but ill stand corrected by the others

Whats your brew ratio?

You running a lot longer brew ratio with the ek for example

Putting more water thro a espresso will increase the extraction yield of the drink but decrease the strength of ti compared to say a robber

If your using a dark to medium roast coffee i would think its highly unlikely your under extracting it on your set up


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

I was tasting the last drips... As they were 'tasty' I was assuming I was under extracting??? The espresso in milk didn't taste good at all!

I was using the butterworts DSOL beans so quite dark and a little past their best!

The recipe I was using was 16g in 40g out in 34s.

Burrs nearly chirping on the EK, and a 18g VST basket with a light nutate and tamp - no weight behind the torr Titan...

I guess I'm still learning to diagnose by taste!!!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Can you describe at all what you don't like about the taste?

Your only option seems to be to go coarser. Perhaps drop the nutate.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Marky

i would back off a little - what dial does your ek have btw...

With that coffee id expect to be around the 1.8-2 ish ( on the callum dial mark )

with a shortish pre infusion ( say 4 - 5 seconds )

18 into 42 -44 is a good ratio but the time seems overly long

a quiciker shot with the right brew ratio on the ek doesnt mean under extracted

you can hit a 20 second shot with the right grind and brew ratio and be in the sweet spot ......

with that fine a grind i suspect your over extracting if anything ( i could be wrong but at near zero with a dark roasted coffee i suspect your hitting 10 plus tds which would put you in over extracted territory )


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Can you describe at all what you don't like about the taste?
> 
> Your only option seems to be to go coarser. Perhaps drop the nutate.


Describing the taste is hard...

It just wasn't right... I'll try your suggestions and report back...


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Marky
> 
> i would back off a little - what dial does your ek have btw...
> 
> ...


I'm sticking to a 16g dose so maybe 40g a little too much... I'll drop the ratio and see what happens. Then I'll try and drop the nutate and coarsen the grind.

BTW, I'm still on the old dial... Callum's dial is still in the drawer - I must get around to fitting it!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MarkyP said:


> I'm sticking to a 16g dose so maybe 40g a little too much... I'll drop the ratio and see what happens. Then I'll try and drop the nutate and coarsen the grind.


Why drop the ratio ? If you're not sure you're hitting the desired extraction, you're moving the goalposts - 16:40g should give you a mid range strength at the type of yield (balanced flavour) you're aiming for. It may be easier to taste for defects if the shot is a little more diluted, then fine tune.


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Why drop the ratio ? If you're not sure you're hitting the desired extraction, you're moving the goalposts - 16:40g should give you a mid range strength at the type of yield (balanced flavour) you're aiming for. It may be easier to taste for defects if the shot is a little more diluted, then fine tune.


I think you've hit the nail on the head - I'm changing too much at once...


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Further to my attempts at grinding finer and extracting more I ground finer still. But still results are inconsistent. What's even more annoying is the grinder keeps stopping producing any grinds whatsoever. Has anyone else experienced this?

I have to go coarser until it grinds again then readjust to make it fine again. It's frustrating and I'm wasting precious Brown gold (that's coffee).


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Sounds like it could be a number of things with your grinder, including the burrs or the motor. Sometimes new burrs can cause this too, if they are too sharp.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Argh! I hate grinders.


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