# Don't just rely on bottled water



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

""Attempting" to make life restorer this morning, the machine seemed to be as slow as me, . Flow seemed to vary between slow and non existent:confused:

Removing top nut and filter then "mushroom" was amazed at amount of scale within, bearing in mind I use Waitose essential or Ashbeck and de-scale every couple of months.

The machine is now sat de-scaling and I am working out pipework run for a filter.

Also contacting "waterboy" for his input.







.

Some considerable time later after descaling, stripping and servicing the E 61 and its valves I now have the "elixir off life back on tap" I can't do cold turkey.


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

I think I should descale my machine soon....


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I've yet to do mine, keep wondering what de-scaler to use on a Classic


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Rhys said:


> I've yet to do mine, keep wondering what de-scaler to use on a Classic


Don't delay descale today. Have a word with Mark (gaggiamanulserve)


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Rhys said:


> I've yet to do mine, keep wondering what de-scaler to use on a Classic


I use sachets of baby puly but you can just use citric acid.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Neill said:


> I use sachets of baby puly but you can just use citric acid.


I've got some citric acid de-scaler, but folks have mentioned its not good for aluminium boilers?


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Rhys said:


> I've got some citric acid de-scaler, but folks have mentioned its not good for aluminium boilers?


I've heard that too, that's why I stick to puly baby. I suspect the citric is ok to use though.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I'll look it up (Puly Baby) and get some


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## Chockymonster (Jan 21, 2013)

Mark always told me just to use the gaggia stuff. It's easy to use.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Gulp! There was me believing that using Ashbeck and Volvic meant I would never have to descale as the TDS is below the threshold. Sounds like this might not be the case? Apparently Rocket say descaling should be done by them not the user (for the r58 anyway). Don't like the sound of that.


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## Snakehips (Jun 2, 2015)

I don't much like the sound of that either.

Have been using Ashbeck in Giotto and was quietly confident (hopeful) that 6 months between descales would be fine!!???


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Rhys said:


> I've yet to do mine, keep wondering what de-scaler to use on a Classic


Def use the Gaggia descaler. It's designed for their aluminium boilers.

I wouldn't be happy using anything else as the last thing you want is to be imbibing aluminium particles!


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

Fleabay doing a 250ml Gaggia descaler for £6.99 incl postage and offering click & collect at an Argos of your choice at no extra cost.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

El carajillo said:


> ""Attempting" to make life restorer this morning, the machine seemed to be as slow as me, . Flow seemed to vary between slow and non existent:confused:
> 
> Removing top nut and filter then "mushroom" was amazed at amount of scale within, bearing in mind I use Waitose essential or Ashbeck and de-scale every couple of months.
> 
> ...


Hi Frank,

are you sure it was scale and not just some sedement that got picked up by the pump and sucked through the system? Did you buy the machine used?

From the spec on the bottle it shouldn't scale but as I've said previously they're not always correct.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Rhys said:


> I'll look it up (Puly Baby) and get some


PULY BABY CLEANER SACHETS FOR DOMESTIC COFFEE MACHINES [bUY 2 GET 1 FREE]

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=221540562161&globalID=EBAY-GB

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/mobile/dp/B00Y6OR61C/ref=mobile_oh_details_?ie=UTF8&app-action=detail&asin=B00Y6OR61C&clickstream-tag=cfukweb-21ur_order


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## simontc (May 21, 2014)

Is puly bad for gaggia... ??? Tis what I use.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Hi Frank,
> 
> are you sure it was scale and not just some sedement that got picked up by the pump and sucked through the system? Did you buy the machine used?
> 
> From the spec on the bottle it shouldn't scale but as I've said previously they're not always correct.


I have had the machine from new Spence, only used bottled water and it was definitely scale, plenty on the "mushroom" considering it is not that long since it was descaled .


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

Hi

generally speaking would it be better to use tap water filtered with a Brita jug water filter or buy bottled water? (and if so which bottled water?)

which would give better tasting coffee/less limescale? (though from this thread I understand we will not be 'scale-free' regardless)

thanks

PS I have just bought a brita-jug filter...(with Maxta cartridge) shall I just return it?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Tesco ashbeck is a nice easy to grab water, think some do the waitrose if you live in a posh enough area to have one!

Would ditch the jug and grab bottled, never ever use tap water, its like bathing in the canal!


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Nobodysdriving said:


> Hi
> 
> generally speaking would it be better to use tap water filtered with a Brita jug water filter or buy bottled water? (and if so which bottled water?)
> 
> ...


Depends on your tap water. If you have low hardness water then this solution might be good, if you have high hardness then you could run into serious scale issues. I you don't know about your tap water then bottled is a reasonable way to get reasonably consistent water.

Volvic is a recommended starter for Espresso, Volvic or Waitrose for brewed seem like the best options.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> never ever use tap water, its like bathing in the canal!


Not sure about that mate, properly filtered tap water from a decent source is the best for coffee, better than any bottled water IMHO.


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Not sure about that mate, properly filtered tap water from a decent source is the best for coffee, better than any bottled water IMHO.


Debateable if we're talking about Brita and London tap water.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Bottled water over a jug any day for me, less hassle and less risk of running out and using the tap!


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Milanski said:



> Debateable if we're talking about Brita and London tap water.


I wasn't so I think we're all good then?


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> I wasn't so I think we're all good then?


Ha, in that case we certainly are


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Thing is, if you ask for a report from your water supplier with a breakdown of all the constituents found in tap water you may be shocked.

Admittedly I did this for Thames water but the report came back 3 pages long - and I guarantee you a massive %age of that stuff won't be filtered my a Brita cart.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Bottled water over a jug any day for me, less hassle and less risk of running out and using the tap!


Sorry, I was commenting on your post that said never ever use tap water, its like bathing in a canal, which I disagree with. I do however agree that bottled water is almost certainly better than a Britta jug and it is much less hassle. But neither are better than good tap water that has been filtered correctly imho.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Milanski said:


> Thing is, if you ask for a report from your water supplier with a breakdown of all the constituents found in tap water you may be shocked.
> 
> Admittedly I did this for Thames water but the report came back 3 pages long - and I guarantee you a massive %age of that stuff won't be filtered my a Brita cart.


I agree there is a lot in tap water but what makes you think that same crap is not in the bottled water, depending on where you live it could be coming from the same source?

They don't have to report it on the label as concentrations are low.

I would hazard a guess that the quality of tap water is more tightly controlled in this country than bottled, but it would only be a guess.


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> I agree there is a lot in tap water but what makes you think that same crap is not in the bottled water, depending on where you live it could be coming from the same source?
> 
> They don't have to report it on the label as concentrations are low.
> 
> I would hazard a guess that the quality of tap water is more tightly controlled in this country than bottled, but it would only be a guess.


I also read something to that effect but somehow I can't see the same amout of pollutants in say Volvic than from recycled sewage water (again using London as an example).

Suffolk may not be quite so bad but I would personally stick with Volvic or look at getting a better (read more expensive) water filter system.


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

Milanski said:


> Thing is, if you ask for a report from your water supplier with a breakdown of all the constituents found in tap water you may be shocked.
> 
> Admittedly I did this for Thames water but the report came back 3 pages long - and I guarantee you a massive %age of that stuff won't be filtered my a Brita cart.


thank you all

this is my local water report:

http://www.waterplc.com/waterquality/L14.pdf

I'd appreciate view/opinions if I am ok with this and the Brita-jug-filter or shall I use volvic (I'd like to maximise my espressos and reduced 'risk' to machine







)


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Personally, (as I did before I got an RO system) I'd use Volvic and descale every 2-3 months, but to be clear, this is not based on any scientific knowledge but more because I don't trust municipal water supplies.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Milanski said:


> I also read something to that effect but somehow I can't see the same amout of pollutants in say Volvic than from recycled sewage water (again using London as an example).
> 
> Suffolk may not be quite so bad but I would personally stick with Volvic or look at getting a better (read more expensive) water filter system.


Agreed


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Nobodysdriving said:


> thank you all
> 
> this is my local water report:
> 
> ...


Your water will produce quite a lot of scale, the jug probably will not help. Volvic or a decent fitter are your best options.


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

Xpenno said:


> Your water will produce quite a lot of scale, the jug probably will not help. Volvic or a decent fitter are your best options.


thank you Xpenno much appreciated as I don't know much about this subject yet









(off to buy volvic supplies







)


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

I'm still looking to hook up a 'decent' filter. But still unsure what to go with...

at the minute I'm using a jug with a BWT Gourmet Mg2 filter.. I'm guessing this also does sod all for scale build up?


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

I don't think you can avoid scale completely as calcium is one of the minerals conducive to makeing good coffee.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I use an Aquarell C300 size inline filter. Do my learned friends think that since I am in a reasonably soft water area anyway, thatI am doing enough or should I be looking at a different route. My thoughts are it is better to spend a sum of money than have to descale the lever every 6 months

I have just looked it up on my water authority site and my postcode is called as slightly hard at 47 mg/l as calcium


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm neither learned nor your friend







so disregard my response but better to do a preventative descale every once in a while than not at all.

Once every 6 months is surely not too much effort?


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

looking into this more and more I think I will have a 'Brita Purity C300' system installed....problem is I have to find someone to install it for me am too 'scared' to do it myself









also not sure if my kitchen is 'ready' for this or any big-mods would be needed....would be nice if my machine could be plumbed in with minimal work too....

anyone can recommend a plumber not far from south croydon area?


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm happy to ask my guy for you. He lives in Enfield but does travel to where the work is if he's not on a big job.

Totally honest fella and will not make up rubbish to get a few extra quid out of you.

So to be clear, you'd just want the C300 fitted and your machine plumbed in?


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Does a Brita jug remove the chlorine from tap water? I was under the impression the chlorine was a pretty big problem for making coffee. The answer isn't relevant to my setup but I'm curious to know.

My tap water is about 40 TDS which I believe is actually too soft? I've always used volvic.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Brita says its filters 'reduce chlorine' in water. So, if you're local water is heavily chlorinated, it will help but bottled water will be tons better. Waitrose Essential or Tesco's Ashbeck come in at around £1.10 for five litres. Using these will make a big difference to brewed or espresso.


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

Milanski said:


> I'm happy to ask my guy for you. He lives in Enfield but does travel to where the work is if he's not on a big job.
> 
> Totally honest fella and will not make up rubbish to get a few extra quid out of you.
> 
> So to be clear, you'd just want the C300 fitted and your machine plumbed in?


thank you @Milanski, yes please, if he's happy to come 'all the way here' for a quote/have a look that is as I am not sure my kitchen is 'fit' to take it and whether there would need to be any extra piping etc.

Would the C300 be an ok solution? there's a C150 too, I think the difference is that it process less in litres (ie for smaller needs...so maybe the C150 is enough for me as I am single and do not make coffee very much for other people?)

http://www.kingdomcoffee.co.uk/brita-purity-c150-system

http://www.brita.co.uk/medias/sys_brita/8524084210839728.pdf


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## Lefteye (Dec 30, 2014)

Show long does bottled water stay fresh? If I fill a resovoir of say 2 litres but only have one or two drinks per day should I chuck it each day or top it up when it runs low???


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Hi Frank is there any scale build up anywhere else in your machine? Seems unusual that it builds up so quickly after a recent descale.


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

Lefteye said:


> Show long does bottled water stay fresh? If I fill a resovoir of say 2 litres but only have one or two drinks per day should I chuck it each day or top it up when it runs low???


I'm sure it'll be fine for a week, well I usually empty my tank roughly every week and replenish. So maybe put just a little more than you'd use in a week?

when I went to BellaBarista Claudette there tells me she empties/washes her machine's water tank once a month!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Milanski said:


> I'm neither learned nor your friend
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But prevention is better than cure. Why descale your machine is it does not need it? My kettle which is a couple of years ol does not have an emollient but the whole of the bottom heats up. There is a discolouring but no actual scale. All I am saying, is do people think the C300 is doing a good enough job or should i be looking at something else


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

My kettle hasn't seen scale in the last couple of years as my water is very soft. But when I descale my machine the water that comes out has a blue/green tint to it. Not sure if scale or just a reaction with the copper though..


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## Snakehips (Jun 2, 2015)

Take that as the sign of a nice clean boiler !


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Mr O said:


> I'm still looking to hook up a 'decent' filter. But still unsure what to go with...
> 
> at the minute I'm using a jug with a BWT Gourmet Mg2 filter.. I'm guessing this also does sod all for scale build up?


Mg2 replaces some of the Calcium with Magnesium, this still scales but to a slightly lesser degree. If your water is hard then the jug will not save you









The basic rule of thumb is that if you have 100+ mg/L Hardness as CaCO3 then you will get scale. There are more factors to go on but this is a good simple guideline to follow. It's also worth noting that hardness is not ppm measured with a TDS meter.


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## Chockymonster (Jan 21, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> I would hazard a guess that the quality of tap water is more tightly controlled in this country than bottled, but it would only be a guess.


You're 100% correct.

My wife works for Thames water, it's one of her pet hates that people prefer bottled water to tap because it's "better for you" or cleaner"

Tap water has to be tested daily, bottled water only has to have a small percentage tested a couple of times a year.

Tap water isn't bad quality, it just isn't great for coffee machines


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I use an Aquarell C300 size inline filter. Do my learned friends think that since I am in a reasonably soft water area anyway, thatI am doing enough or should I be looking at a different route. My thoughts are it is better to spend a sum of money than have to descale the lever every 6 months
> 
> I have just looked it up on my water authority site and my postcode is called as slightly hard at 47 mg/l as calcium


You should be OK Dave, the filter will remove the rest of the crap that you don't want. 47mg/L should not cause scale build up and as you said, it's a bit lower than idea for coffee brewing.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> You should be OK Dave, the filter will remove the rest of the crap that you don't want. 47mg/L should not cause scale build up and as you said, it's a bit lower than idea for coffee brewing.


Many thanks Spence. It is all a bit mind boggling to me. I would be quite happy never having to take the top off my machine again!


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Lefteye said:


> Show long does bottled water stay fresh? If I fill a resovoir of say 2 litres but only have one or two drinks per day should I chuck it each day or top it up when it runs low???


Not very long, especially bottled water as it has not chlorine which is used as a disinfectant. The good news is that you are heating it to above boiling inside your machine so this should kill off any bacteria. I would be tempted to empty at least every week if I wasn't getting through a whole tank.


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## Chockymonster (Jan 21, 2013)

Nobodysdriving said:


> thank you @Milanski, yes please, if he's happy to come 'all the way here' for a quote/have a look that is as I am not sure my kitchen is 'fit' to take it and whether there would need to be any extra piping etc.
> 
> Would the C300 be an ok solution? there's a C150 too, I think the difference is that it process less in litres (ie for smaller needs...so maybe the C150 is enough for me as I am single and do not make coffee very much for other people?)
> 
> ...


The number in after the C is approximately the number of litres the filter will pass with a 0 missing at 30% bypass. So 1500l, 3000l etc

They use the same filter head, the only difference is the physical size of the filter. THere isn't much in it for the 150 or the 300 though.

These are the dimensions with the filter head fitted.

W D H

117/104/419mm

125/119/466mm

I'm using a C300 filter, they come up fairly regularly on ebay for silly prices, I just keep an eye out have one ready to swap out.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

I descaled my HX machine 3 weeks ago. Been a bit lazy as last one done in December 14. use only Ashbeck. Had a slight heating fault where the element light would sometimes flicker even when full of water. Frank suggested a descale as cause probably boiler water sensor probe. also took apart E61.

quite a build of scale on mushroom, but what a difference afterwards. much faster recovery time and lots more steam. Must have been scale on the sensor as its cured that. Perhaps a change to volvic. You forget what your machine should be like.


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

Chockymonster said:


> The number in after the C is approximately the number of litres the filter will pass with a 0 missing at 30% bypass. So 1500l, 3000l etc
> 
> They use the same filter head, the only difference is the physical size of the filter. THere isn't much in it for the 150 or the 300 though.
> 
> ...


thank you

I am actually just waiting now for Brita itself to provide me with a quote for the C300 with installation by one of their engineers.

if the difference is just how many litres then I might as well go for C150? I mean it's only me drinking 4 to 6 espressos per day, do I need the C300 considering this? or if I have the C300 installed then can I replace it with a C150 cartdrige when its due replacement?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Nobodysdriving said:


> thank you
> 
> I am actually just waiting now for Brita itself to provide me with a quote for the C300 with installation by one of their engineers.
> 
> if the difference is just how many litres then I might as well go for C150? I mean it's only me drinking 4 to 6 espressos per day, do I need the C300 considering this? or if I have the C300 installed then can I replace it with a C150 cartdrige when its due replacement?


You will not get it cheaper than this. This is the whole system and usually you pay more than that just for the filter

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-BRITA-PURITY-C300-QUELL-ST-WATER-FILTER-CARTRIDGE-FILTER-HEAD-30-BYPASS-/252010938421?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3aad05c035


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> You will not get it cheaper than this. This is the whole system and usually you pay more than that just for the filter
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-BRITA-PURITY-C300-QUELL-ST-WATER-FILTER-CARTRIDGE-FILTER-HEAD-30-BYPASS-/252010938421?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3aad05c035


Dfk41 do you know what the 30% bypass thing means? as they also have a 70% bypass...

also do you know if I buy a C300 can I then later on install a C150 filter on it?

thanks for link btw


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

from what people on here have said, the 150 and 300 share the same head. I do not understand all these bypass things to be honest. Perhaps someone else can chip in. I have the c300 and it just sits on the bench behind my machine!


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## amalgam786 (Oct 27, 2014)

this is the report for my area:

*Report Period: **January 2013 - December 2013*

*Water hardness type: **Moderately soft*

*Water hardness average: **29.0*mg/l calcium

but seems quite out of date - do you think using a brita filter is sufficient? (never get scale in a kettle either)

regards


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

A friend of mine who is a barista from Malta, was doing a lot of work on water. Whenever I went to his shop he would produce endless sample bottles of water he had added various things to, and even I could taste the difference. SO, is there a filter kit (I guess filter is the clue word) that allows you to add minerals back into the system?


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> from what people on here have said, the 150 and 300 share the same head. I do not understand all these bypass things to be honest. Perhaps someone else can chip in. I have the c300 and it just sits on the bench behind my machine!


thanks dfk









will ask Brita as I am in contact with them right now via email


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## amalgam786 (Oct 27, 2014)

this is the report for my area:

*Report Period: **January 2013 - December 2013*

*Water hardness type: **Moderately soft*

*Water hardness average: **29.0*mg/l calcium

but seems quite out of date - do you think using a brita filter is sufficient? (never get scale in a kettle either)

regards


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> from what people on here have said, the 150 and 300 share the same head. I do not understand all these bypass things to be honest. Perhaps someone else can chip in. I have the c300 and it just sits on the bench behind my machine!


On the BWT filter, the bypass allows a certain amount of source water through without getting the full filtration treatment. It still does some basic filtration but it doesn't go through the bit that reduces alkalinity (carbonate hardness) nor does it benefit from the magnesium enrichment (on the BWT, don't think Brita has this feature).

In basic terms, if you have really hard water you will want a low bypass setting (i.e. fully filter more of the water). If you have softer water then you may want a higher bypass setting (i.e. fully filter less of the water, and your cartridge will last longer).


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

fluffles said:


> On the BWT filter, the bypass allows a certain amount of source water through without getting the full filtration treatment. It still does some basic filtration but it doesn't go through the bit that reduces alkalinity (carbonate hardness) nor does it benefit from the magnesium enrichment (on the BWT, don't think Brita has this feature).
> 
> In basic terms, if you have really hard water you will want a low bypass setting (i.e. fully filter more of the water). If you have softer water then you may want a higher bypass setting (i.e. fully filter less of the water, and your cartridge will last longer).


Thanks for the clear description! So, I might benefit from a different head as I think mine is fixed at 30% bypass. Ghereagain, with ebay selling these for about £45 or so, maybe I should just leave things!


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> A friend of mine who is a barista from Malta, was doing a lot of work on water. Whenever I went to his shop he would produce endless sample bottles of water he had added various things to, and even I could taste the difference. SO, is there a filter kit (I guess filter is the clue word) that allows you to add minerals back into the system?


I use a reverse osmosis system that strips tap water back to H2O at 0ppm TDS.

I then have remineralisation cartridges developed by Pozzani and our very own Stephen Jenner that put back calcium and magnesium in apparently the ideal combination (50/50). I am not sure what the hardness of this water is but I descale every 2/3 months just in case.

After about a year I noticed a bit of scale on the tap spout where a drop of water would sit after I used the tap.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Thanks for the clear description! So, I might benefit from a different head as I think mine is fixed at 30% bypass. Ghereagain, with ebay selling these for about £45 or so, maybe I should just leave things!


Have you tested your input and output water for total hardness and carbonate hardness with a drop test kit? That should tell you whether the filtration level is adequate


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have one of the Londinium test kits where you take 10 mLof water and add a drop of agent. each drop represents 17 mg of tis I believe. When the water turns purple it has changed. I will test some tap water, then some filtered water later on and report back


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## YerbaMate170 (Jun 15, 2015)

This may be a stupid question, but how do cafes get around this issue? Don't they just filter their tap water?


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

fluffles said:


> On the BWT filter, the bypass allows a certain amount of source water through without getting the full filtration treatment. It still does some basic filtration but it doesn't go through the bit that reduces alkalinity (carbonate hardness) nor does it benefit from the magnesium enrichment (on the BWT, don't think Brita has this feature).
> 
> In basic terms, if you have really hard water you will want a low bypass setting (i.e. fully filter more of the water). If you have softer water then you may want a higher bypass setting (i.e. fully filter less of the water, and your cartridge will last longer).


thank you fluffles

I am at the moment communicating with a Brita customer agent

I told her the water hardenss where I live is 88mg/l Cal

she tells me I should bypass at 30% I told her I do not believe her and that perhaps it should be 10%? (but I really do not have a clue LOOOOL)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

the test kit I use. Each drop of agent represents 17.1 mg/L of total hardness. Water from the tap, 7 to 8 drops, water taken from machine (I should have taken it straight from the filter but time was pressing) 3 to 4 drops. Reiss reckons that Volvic has a temporary hardness of 85mg/L which is 5 drops.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Milanski said:


> I use a reverse osmosis system that strips tap water back to H2O at 0ppm TDS.
> 
> I then have remineralisation cartridges developed by Pozzani and our very own Stephen Jenner that put back calcium and magnesium in apparently the ideal combination (50/50). I am not sure what the hardness of this water is but I descale every 2/3 months just in case.
> 
> After about a year I noticed a bit of scale on the tap spout where a drop of water would sit after I used the tap.


Would it work for me, if I put a Pozzani cartridge in between the filter and the machine?


----------



## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> the test kit I use. Each drop of agent represents 17.1 mg/L of total hardness. Water from the tap, 7 to 8 drops, water taken from machine (I should have taken it straight from the filter but time was pressing) 3 to 4 drops. Reiss reckons that Volvic has a temporary hardness of 85mg/L which is 5 drops.


85mg/L for volvic????? so how come when I tell people my local water hardness is 88mg/l they scream at 'how terribly hard' is my local water???? so why should I favour volvic in my machine when it is essentially the same as my tap water? am confused now!


----------



## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Would it work for me, if I put a Pozzani cartridge in between the filter and the machine?


You should speak with Stephen. I'm not sure myself as the cart was designed to be used with 0ppm water.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

it is a different reading. Someone else can explain but you can measure a variety of things in water and reiss, who I quoted was saying that the Volvic reading was the total temporary hardness, whatever that may be!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Milanski said:


> You should speak with Stephen. I'm not sure myself as the cart was designed to be used with 0ppm water.


can you send a link?


----------



## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

Nobodysdriving said:


> 85mg/L for volvic????? so how come when I tell people my local water hardness is 88mg/l they scream at 'how terribly hard' is my local water???? so why should I favour volvic in my machine when it is essentially the same as my tap water? am confused now!


ok ok, is it maybe volvic is 85mg/l CACo3 perhaps? that would be low yes (rather than mg/l Ca)


----------



## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> can you send a link?


PM him.

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/member.php?5244-sjenner

The 50/50 cartidge is not on general sale with Pozzani and not listed on their website. You have to specifically ask for it and you'd need the housing to put it in. Luckily Pozzani are very reasonably priced.


----------



## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Nobodysdriving said:


> ok ok, is it maybe volvic is 85mg/l CACo3 perhaps? that would be low yes (rather than mg/l Ca)


I think you're going to be more of an authroity on this than the rest of us in no time!


----------



## Snakehips (Jun 2, 2015)

Chockymonster said:


> You're 100% correct.
> 
> My wife works for Thames water, it's one of her pet hates that people prefer bottled water to tap because it's "better for you" or cleaner"
> 
> ...


Since moving only 3 miles or so from previous home, three years ago, we have gone to exclusively drinking bottled water.

The odour and taste of our cold water was regularly disgusting, despite the use of an inline filter!

The water has a strong smell / taste of TCP that intensified with heat*. You could taste it through the strongest of cups of tea / coffee!

Apparently it is a reaction between the Chlorine in the water supply and Phenol which can be present even if in small parts per million.

*Apparently, even just the heat from a cold supply pipe crossing over or in too close proximity to a hot water pipe.

Phenol is used in the manufacture of the flexible pipes that supply water to washing machines etc, can be found in electric kettle components and tap washers! They can cause odour and taste issues both when brand new or old.

I fitted non return valves to prevent any siphonage from our appliances and the whole plumbing system was inspected and passed as A1 by oury water supplier Severn Trent. They tested the water and said it was perfectly ok. I assume that to be 'within specification'? The guy who tested pretty much dismissed using a filter as a joke. We have since disconnected the filtered cold.

We saw no improvement, hence the decision to use bottled. We went for Tesco Ashbeck purely on the basis of cost and with a view to being kind to the Giotto, low Calcium. Whether just Calcium is the right way to judge it, I don't really know but we have no issue with it's use for plain drinking or coffee. Re cost... I reckon a years supply of Ashbeck is not a lot dearer than the cost of replacing a £60 filter cartridge two times a year?

Our new neighbours are now having similar issues. It would appear that water Britta Jug filtered and left in the fridge overnight regularly tastes disgusting.


----------



## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

OK, you're all talking in a mixture of units and types of hardness which is confusing things immensely!

dfk1 - you say you have measured total hardness, but reiss is actually talking about carbonate (also called temporary) hardness. Total hardness tells you the amount of calcium and magnesium in the water and this is harmless in terms of scale. You will need to test your carbonate hardness (which will be lower than your total hardness) with a separate drop test kit.

Nobodysdriving - 85mg/L of Calcium is pretty hard. The 85mg/L that dfk1 is referring to is the bicarbonate content, which is bascially a measure of the carbonate hardness (see above). Rest assured that you do have hard water. As for which setting is correct, you'd be best to take their advice in the first instance and perform drop tests for total and carbonate hardness after installation to see if you want to change the setting at all.


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

fluffles said:


> Nobodysdriving - 85mg/L of Calcium is pretty hard. The 85mg/L that dfk1 is referring to is the bicarbonate content, which is bascially a measure of the carbonate hardness (see above). Rest assured that you do have hard water. As for which setting is correct, you'd be best to take their advice in the first instance and perform drop tests for total and carbonate hardness after installation to see if you want to change the setting at all.


thank you fluffles you are a 'genius'









yes it is quite hard my water, that is why I was thinking to change the brita bypass from 30% to 10% but will test it as you advise thanks


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

fluffles said:


> OK, you're all talking in a mixture of units and types of hardness which is confusing things immensely!
> 
> dfk1 - you say you have measured total hardness, but reiss is actually talking about carbonate (also called temporary) hardness. Total hardness tells you the amount of calcium and magnesium in the water and this is harmless in terms of scale. You will need to test your carbonate hardness (which will be lower than your total hardness) with a separate drop test kit.
> 
> Nobodysdriving - 85mg/L of Calcium is pretty hard. The 85mg/L that dfk1 is referring to is the bicarbonate content, which is bascially a measure of the carbonate hardness (see above). Rest assured that you do have hard water. As for which setting is correct, you'd be best to take their advice in the first instance and perform drop tests for total and carbonate hardness after installation to see if you want to change the setting at all.


Could you recommend an amazon based kit fulfils. I have had a look and do not know which is the right one!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Water-Hardness-Testing-Kit/dp/B004R1344M/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1436439860&sr=8-2&keywords=water+hardness+test+kits


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Nobodysdriving said:


> ok ok, is it maybe volvic is 85mg/l CACo3 perhaps? that would be low yes (rather than mg/l Ca)


You need to consider hardness of Calcium and Magnesium carbonates etc. all will have an effect. These waters can also vary in composition from time to time, but I don't know by how much. if you are in South London, you are not very far away from me and your water is going to be hard, as mine is. The steam boiler is not so bad to descale on the Duetto, but the brew boiler is much more difficult. It's also not just the boilers, but the effect on other components within the machine e.g. 1 way valve (and many other components) just after the rotary pump. If your machine is plumbed, then any calcification and leaking of this valve will be hidden by the mains pressure.

Descaling should always be accompanied by correct lubrication of the E61 group internals, if not you get premature wear. Brita jug filters are about as useful as throwing a cup of water on a house fire and will not stop the machine scaling. Coffee shops with commercial machines use various systems to try and control mineral content, even then the machines need regular servicing and decaling. The pipes are a much larger diameter in commercial machines which reduces the need for frequent descaling. In home use you need to make some choices about water....many commercial systems for coffee shops (either with rehardeners or with bypass) are not really suitable for the home prosumer machine.

I would never recommend Tapwater be used in the machine in our part of the country, even if you are going to descale regularly, it doesn't taste great and will eventually cause machine problems. Theres a lot of crap in tapwater, plus a lot of chlorine, not renowned for making coffee taste great.

Many years ago (10 years) I chose the route of RO water and then adding back bicarbonate hardness to around 60 ppm TDS. I have never had to descale a machine and have zero scale/water related problems. The taste of the coffee is fine, I am sure that possibly some "special" water might make the coffee taste better (not sure), but the biggest effect on taste is going to be the quality of the roast, freshness of the coffee you use and the grind quality.

If you are ever passing you are welcome to come and see what I do...my Duetto and Verona are mothballed at the moment as I mainly use the Vesuvius now, but it's an E61 dual boiler and all the same rules apply.


----------



## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

*duplicate (computer going nuts!)*


----------



## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> If you are ever passing you are welcome to come and see what I do...my Duetto and Verona are mothballed at the moment as I mainly use the Vesuvius now, but it's an E61 dual boiler and all the same rules apply.


Yes please!

I go to Walton on Thames regularly (in fact going this saturday as a dear friend lives there







)

so is the Brita C150 not a good option for me?


----------



## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Could you recommend an amazon based kit fulfils. I have had a look and do not know which is the right one!
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Water-Hardness-Testing-Kit/dp/B004R1344M/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1436439860&sr=8-2&keywords=water+hardness+test+kits


Couldn't see anything on amazon, but this is the one I use:

http://coffeehit.co.uk/bwt-water-hardness-test-kit

It will test both total and temporary hardness.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dave, what are you using to add the bicarbonate back in please. is it the pozzaani filter referred to?


----------



## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

fluffles said:


> Couldn't see anything on amazon, but this is the one I use:
> 
> http://coffeehit.co.uk/bwt-water-hardness-test-kit
> 
> It will test both total and temporary hardness.


thank you!!!


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Milanski said:


> I use a reverse osmosis system that strips tap water back to H2O at 0ppm TDS.
> 
> I then have remineralisation cartridges developed by Pozzani and our very own Stephen Jenner that put back calcium and magnesium in apparently the ideal combination (50/50). I am not sure what the hardness of this water is but I descale every 2/3 months just in case.
> 
> After about a year I noticed a bit of scale on the tap spout where a drop of water would sit after I used the tap.


I had one of these carts and it didn't work for me. Our source water is quite alkaline and Calacium Carbonate hardly dissolves in water, especially not alkaline water. Shame as it sounded like a nice solution. At standard atmospheric pressure Calcium Carbonate only dissolves to about 20ppm









I think that the Magnesium Oxide part of the filter is probably providing most of the ppm however again it does not dissolve very well in neutral/alkaline water.

All this said, it one of the better options for RO systems and is much less faff than my current method


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

fluffles said:


> Couldn't see anything on amazon, but this is the one I use:
> 
> http://coffeehit.co.uk/bwt-water-hardness-test-kit
> 
> It will test both total and temporary hardness.


Nope, this tests Alkalinity (carbonate hardness) and Total Hardness. It does not test temporary hardness.


----------



## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> Nope, this tests Alkalinity (carbonate hardness) and Total Hardness. It does not test temporary hardness.


You're right of course. What's the difference between carbonate and temporary hardness?


----------



## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> I had one of these carts and it didn't work for me. Our source water is quite alkaline and Calacium Carbonate hardly dissolves in water, especially not alkaline water. Shame as it sounded like a nice solution. At standard atmospheric pressure Calcium Carbonate only dissolves to about 20ppm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting, didn't know that... *goes off to test his water's pH...

What system are you using now then Spence?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Dont be so keen to keep calcium to a minimum . Its delicious ; )


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

https://londiniumespresso.com/store/espresso-machine-parts/temporary-hardness-th-water-test-kit

This is the kit I use


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Nobodysdriving said:


> Yes please!
> 
> I go to Walton on Thames regularly (in fact going this saturday as a dear friend lives there
> 
> ...


The Brita is not a great option no....I have had friends with them and there was still plenty of scale and other problems with the machine. Water has a lot of other stuff in it that gums things up.....I have a distillation unit as well and when I tried that, what was left in the still after creating 3.5 litres or so of pure water didn't look good (slightly viscous brown liquid). I can assure you people who say what was left in the still and the smell of it were asked, "if I simply tipped that back into the 3.5 litres of water, would you drink it".....all answered NO. This would only have returned the water back to exactly what it was before distillation.....it's also the day I decided to get an RO unit.

Walton Upon Thames is a few miles up the road from me....so not far......drop me a pm any time your passing. If I'm around your welcome to talk a few things coffee, have a coffee and see what I do a.. If it tastes OK to you, then no reason you can't put in an RO unit, even if it's a small one. A friend of mine used a very small non pumped one for years (because he had good water pressure),,,but it was a bit of a faf compared to the pumped units with a tank and faucet. Also if you have some bottled water your thinking of using, or a selection of bottled waters, I have a TDS meter so you can test them....it will give you some idea of how soft they are. A temporary measure might be to use a low mineral bottled water through the brita filter until you get some other system.


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> it's also the day I decided to get an RO unit.


sorry but what is an RO unit? do you have a link to where they seel these?









will PM you yes, thank you!!


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

fluffles said:


> You're right of course. What's the difference between carbonate and temporary hardness?


My understanding is that Carbonate Hardness (Alkalinity) is a measure of carbonate/bicarbaonte ions in a solution. Temporary Hardness is a measure of the Calcium/Magnesium that is associated with those ions. Could be wrong though...


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Milanski said:


> Interesting, didn't know that... *goes off to test his water's pH...
> 
> What system are you using now then Spence?


I use an RO system and a sodastream, yes, I know, I've probably gone to far.....


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Nobodysdriving said:


> sorry but what is an RO unit? do you have a link to where they seel these?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Reverse Osmosis and Pozzani or Amazon or quite a few other places.


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

Xpenno said:


> Reverse Osmosis and Pozzani or Amazon or quite a few other places.


thank you, affordable enough!

however now I am 'even more confused'

so.....if I buy and install this RO system, is that all I have to do or do I have to buy more kits/staff?









am looking at this site, this is even cheaper than brita with installation


----------



## robashton (May 9, 2015)

garydyke1 said:


> Dont be so keen to keep calcium to a minimum . Its delicious ; )


I'd be interested to know what you think our best option would be up here in Glasgae.

Ovbiously our water is super soft, which is why I use Ashbeck - but that's not exactly overflowing in calcium either..


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Nobodysdriving said:


> thank you, affordable enough!
> 
> however now I am 'even more confused'
> 
> ...


http://coffeetimex.wikidot.com/ro-water-copper-corrosion

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/reverse-osmosis

All you need after you buy the RO system is an old business card and some bicarb....the main thing is, will you find the espresso taste acceptable?...This you can of course try with your own coffee and mine. I can set up my machine (which is a pressure profiler) as a straight 9 bar machine with standard E61 preinfusion for a rotary pump. Perhaps I lose a smidgen of taste, but I exchange that for an almost zero maintenance machine.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Nobodysdriving said:


> thank you, affordable enough!
> 
> however now I am 'even more confused'
> 
> ...


Just use Volvic


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

Xpenno said:


> Just use Volvic


yes this sounds like the easier option I have to say!

i am gutted to find out the brita C150/C300 are useless, and there they are recommending them to professionals?


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## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

At the risk of repeating a post from some time back, we have hard East Anglian water. All our water goes through a softener and the drinking water goes through an online Brita, and this is the water I use for my Alex Duetto.

After my first year of ownership I contacted BB to ask about descaling and was advised to descale. I did, and nothing resembling scale came out. I put this all on the forum and @DavecUK reassured me that I should never had descaled. I haven't since, now well over 2 years since I bought it. Kettle is always sparkling using this water, and we've had it five years. I will not be descaling again and the coffees taste every bit as good as I've had anywhere else.....

Only use bottled water on the extremely rare instances when we take the machine with us if we rent a self catering holiday in the UK.

Don't know if this helps......if not, sorry!

Ian


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

IanP said:


> At the risk of repeating a post from some time back, we have hard East Anglian water. All our water goes through a softener and the drinking water goes through an online Brita, and this is the water I use for my Alex Duetto.
> 
> After my first year of ownership I contacted BB to ask about descaling and was advised to descale. I did, and nothing resembling scale came out. I put this all on the forum and @DavecUK reassured me that I should never had descaled. I haven't since, now well over 2 years since I bought it. Kettle is always sparkling using this water, and we've had it five years. I will not be descaling again and the coffees taste every bit as good as I've had anywhere else.....
> 
> ...


which online Brita do you use IanP?


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

N B D, from what you say and where you live I would imagine your water is fairy hard. The Brita jug filters do little more than remove chlorine and unpleasant taste's.

As an interim measure / while considering an in line filter I would suggest you use bottled water, eg Volvic ,Waterose essential or Ashbeck, although not 100% they will be big improvement on the Brita jug


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

This shizzle confuzzles me....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think there is confusion between what water is acceptable for protecting your machine, and what water is acceptable to those with delicate palates.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Nobodysdriving said:


> yes this sounds like the easier option I have to say!
> 
> i am gutted to find out the brita C150/C300 are useless, and there they are recommending them to professionals?


I should have read more carefully, I thought you meant the jug filters or the smaller under-sink conditioning stuff...the C150/C300 might be fine. They look very similar to systems like the 3M Scaleguard pro. It will leave something in the water, how this works out long term for maintenance I don't know. We, as a family, found it simpler to use RO for all the drinking water and of course for the coffee machine. This is because I was specifically concerned about other contaminants which a regular scale reduction filter, will not remove. Also for us RO was a much cheaper option than the inline filters. Current RO unit has been in place nearly 3 years and same membrane TDS of


----------



## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

Nobodysdriving said:


> which online Brita do you use IanP?


Brita P1000 under the sink jobs http://www.brita.co.uk/brita/en-gb/shop/p-1000-4-pack/p_1000_4.grid?category=cartridges

I may be going off piste here and confusing things ....but I can't see any problems with them. Combined with a domestic softener system the machine is fine and I find no weird tastes in my coffee....but maybe that's just me!


----------



## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> I should have read more carefully, I thought you meant the jug filters or the smaller under-sink conditioning stuff...the C150/C300 might be fine.


aaaaahhhhhhhh sorry DavecUK, yes it was the C150 I was talking about. I have been on and off on phone with Brita today and was organising this to be installed by them.

they recommend a 'bypass' of 30% (ie 30% of the water will not be filtered) 'however' I was thinking of having it installed (they install it with 'variable bypass head so the bypass can be adjusted) and then testing the water that comes out of it at 30% and at 20% - 10% and 0% bypass.

mumble mumble (thinking thinking)


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Nobodysdriving said:


> aaaaahhhhhhhh sorry DavecUK, yes it was the C150 I was talking about. I have been on and off on phone with Brita today and was organising this to be installed by them.
> 
> they recommend a 'bypass' of 30% (ie 30% of the water will not be filtered) 'however' I was thinking of having it installed (they install it with 'variable bypass head so the bypass can be adjusted) and then testing the water that comes out of it at 30% and at 20% - 10% and 0% bypass.
> 
> mumble mumble (thinking thinking)


It's an area that could do with some discussion and some tasting before you commit either way.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

robashton said:


> I'd be interested to know what you think our best option would be up here in Glasgae.
> 
> Ovbiously our water is super soft, which is why I use Ashbeck - but that's not exactly overflowing in calcium either..


Ashbeck by itself ? i don't get on with it these days.

Take a look down the super market , examine all the labels for calcium and magnesium content , avoiding ones with too high bicarb.

Then do some cupping experiments with what you've picked


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Ashbeck by itself ? i don't get on with it these days.
> 
> Take a look down the super market , examine all the labels for calcium and magnesium content , avoiding ones with too high bicarb.
> 
> Then do some cupping experiments with what you've picked


Relatively speaking what is too high


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Evian . Calcium good. Bicarb too high

Typical Values	Composition in (mg/litre):

Calcium Ca++	80

Magnésium Mg++	26

Sodium Na+	6.5

Potassium K+	1

Silice SiO2	15

*Bicarbonates HCO3-	360*

Sulfates SO4--	12.6

Chlorures CI-	6.8

Nitrates NO3-	3.7


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I prefer Waitrose to Ashbeck , although its still soft

Typical Values	Mg per litre

Calcium	18

Magnesium	4.5

Potassium	0.8

Sodium	12

Bicarbonate	39

Chloride	26

Fluoride

Sulphate	17.5

Nitrate	7.8

Dry Residue	110

pH	6.7


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

highland spring

Typical Values	Average Analysis mg/L:

Bicarbonate	150

Calcium	40.5

Chloride	6.1

Magnesium	10.1

Nitrite (as NO3)	3.1

Potassium	0.7

Sodium	5.6

Sulphate	5.3

Dry residue at 180°C	170


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Brecon Carreg

Typical Values	Typical Analysis mg per litre

Calcium	55

Magnesium	15

Sodium	5.0

Potassium	0.5

Bicarbonate	225

Chloride	9.0

Sulphate	9.0

Nitrate	3.5

Silica	7.0

Dry residue at 180°C	210

Ph at Source	7.6


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Evian is the worst of all worlds!! Very high hardness and extremely high bicarb. It'd be a total scale-fest!!

Of course if you have a sage db then its not an issue as descaling is so bloody easy







for the rest of us not so much









P.s don't use evian anyway as yo coffee will taste like crap!!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Volvic

Typical Values	Typical Analysis (mg/litre)

Chlorides	13.5

Calcium	11.5

Nitrates	6.3

Magnesium	8.0

Sulphates	8.1

Sodium	11.6

Bicarbonates	71.0

Potassium	6.2

Silica	31.7

Total Dry Residue at 180°C:	130 mg/L

pH7


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

harrogate spa

Typical Values	(mg/litre)

Calcium	46

Magnesium	13

Sodium	42

Sulphate	26

Bicarbonate	185

Chloride	58

Nitrate

pH (at source)	7


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

ballygawan

Typical Values	Mineral Composition mg/l:

Calcium	114

Magnesium	16

Sodium	15

Potassium	3

Bicarbonate	400

Chloride	28

Sulphate	15

Nitrate (as NO3)	9

pH at Source	7.2


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

buxton

Typical Values	Typical Analysis mg/l

Calcium	55

Magnesium	19

Potassium	1

Sodium	24

Bicarbonate	248

Chloride	37

Sulphate	13

Nitrate

Dry Residue at 180°C	280

pH at Source	7.4


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Volvic is the best you'll get for spro out of the bottle. A volvic/waitrose blend for brewed. I've looked at a buttload and the vast majority are not suitable for coffee IMHO.


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

I can't believe I am sat here with a 5L bottle of Ashbeck between my legs comparing all this.....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Fiji (weird profile)

Typical Values	Composition in mg/litre:

Silica	92

Calcium	18

Nitrates	1

Magnesium	15

Sulfates	1

Sodium	18

Bicarbonates	153

Potassium	5

Chlorides	9

pH	7.7


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Has Bean roastery water

Typical Values	Composition in mg/litre:

Silica	?

Calcium	shit tonne

Nitrates

Magnesium	??

Sulfates	?

Sodium	?

Bicarbonates	?

Potassium	?

Chlorides	?

pH	7.6

Dry residue 375+

BUT amazing water for brewed, bit too closed and chewy for 'spro . Personally 50/50 mixed with Waitrose is my all time favourite all rounder.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Xpenno said:


> Of course if you have a sage db then its not an issue as descaling is so bloody easy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Im sure someone brewed generic supermarket coffee with evian at Vodafone once, it smelled like vomit. I blame the water.

We picked out chunks of calcium from the Uber font almost weekly. It dries into a perfect calcium power.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Haha, yeah it's baaaad. I think you might be impressed by my new water, it's a different beast and it won't scale the crap out of you're machine (probably....) The machines at work must all be sad on they inside


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## Chockymonster (Jan 21, 2013)

I have the 70-0 bypass head, it's set at 33ish% the drop kit I use turns purple after 5 drops which is a bit of an improvement to the 17 before the filter was fitted. I'm not that far from Kingston either, just the other side of the m25


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

Chockymonster said:


> I have the 70-0 bypass head, it's set at 33ish% the drop kit I use turns purple after 5 drops which is a bit of an improvement to the 17 before the filter was fitted. I'm not that far from Kingston either, just the other side of the m25


thank you this is very helpful as I think I will go ahead with the Brita C150

would it be 'bad' to set it at 0% bypass?


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## truegrace (Jan 29, 2014)

I ordered my drop test kit from the bay this morning with a prv, should be here mid week so into screwfix and get them to sell me the rest of the bits I need to connect it all to a 3/4" washing machine out


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Nobodysdriving said:


> thank you this is very helpful as I think I will go ahead with the Brita C150
> 
> would it be 'bad' to set it at 0% bypass?


Nope, just means it won't last as long.


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

Xpenno said:


> Nope, just means it won't last as long.


yes I know it won't last as long









I wondered whether this may eliminate as much total hardness as possible (so better long term for coffee and machine), then if it is better I would not 'care' it lasts less







the way it is this filter provides far more litres than I require anyway


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## truegrace (Jan 29, 2014)

Depending on how much water you use though it might not make much difference in theory as you need to change the filter every year regardless of if you hit your usage or not.

I generally use about 2 ltrs a week, so will be no where near (or shouldn't be) the capacity of my c300


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

yes, I was wondering if a 0% bypass means less limescale 'danger' to my coffee machine, guess I'll have to test it myself then











truegrace said:


> Depending on how much water you use though it might not make much difference in theory as you need to change the filter every year regardless of if you hit your usage or not.
> 
> I generally use about 2 ltrs a week, so will be no where near (or shouldn't be) the capacity of my c300


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Nobodysdriving said:


> yes I know it won't last as long
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, less bypass = more hardness removed = healthier machine. Certainly worth testing post filter once installed though as there is no guarantee that it will remove enough.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> Yes, less bypass = more hardness removed = healthier machine. Certainly worth testing post filter once installed though as there is no guarantee that it will remove enough.


Be careful with ph- more filtration will make the water more acidic.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Just picked up 8 litres of waitrose water to try to see if I can taste the difference compared to Volvic.

And yes, that's another supermarket's catchphrase.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

There is no wait rose near us. Sainsburys only passable water seems to be volvic... So all this is interesting but a bit acadmejxy for me


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

fluffles said:


> Be careful with ph- more filtration will make the water more acidic.


aaaarrrrrrggggghhhhh (thank you







)

shall I test PH too then?


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

I've used Volvic and Ashbeck but not Waitrose. I'll give that a go if i get near one.......

To be honest though I noticed little difference between the Volvic and Ashbeck, maybe the Volvic making the flavour more pronounced a little but that could be placebo effect.

Changing water may be a little lost to me as I can be a tad inconsistent and only running lowly Classic. Will see though I'll give anything a try if it chances an improvement.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Another relevant topic http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?25284-Water-For-Coffee-Maxwell-amp-Chris-Hendon-Water-Book

I'd suggest anyone interested watches Maxwell explain a bit here:


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Sk8-bizarre said:


> I can't believe I am sat here with a 5L bottle of Ashbeck between my legs comparing all this.....


I heard it's 2L at best, stop trying to show off


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> There is no wait rose near us. Sainsburys only passable water seems to be volvic... So all this is interesting but a bit acadmejxy for me


Sorry if it's an obvious question but will they deliver? Was quite far away from one on holiday but they'd still cover it. Obviously means potentially getting a bit of shopping but it makes getting the 5L bottles a lot easier (delivery guy didn't thank me when at home I had 5 of them delivered though .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jlarkin said:


> Sorry if it's an obvious question but will they deliver? Was quite far away from one on holiday but they'd still cover it. Obviously means potentially getting a bit of shopping but it makes getting the 5L bottles a lot easier (delivery guy didn't thank me when at home I had 5 of them delivered though .


Hi - No they don't deliver here. They make you go through the email , address , registering thing before telling you though


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Hi - No they don't deliver here. They make you go through the email , address , registering thing before telling you though


Grrr


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