# Buying suggestions for a newbie: MaraX or Victoria?



## borez

Hi all,

I'm planning to invest in a proper set-up (bye Nespresso!), and would like some expert opinion. My current workflow is for 1-2 milk-based drinks daily. I've got a preference for simple workflows as I'll be prepping drinks in the morning, so the easier the better. This was one reason why I decided on the Sette 270Wi (automatic weight dosing) over the Niche Zero.

So far, I've shortlisted both the Victoria and MaraX. Understand these two machine's pros and cons. The Victoria wins in terms of simplicity, but the MaraX seems to provide more capability as I gain more experience. Not to mention that I've gotten a good pricing on the MaraX. ?

Would like to ask on the following, in assessing these trade-offs:

1) How much effort would E61 systems require? This includes things like shaft lubrication, descaling, blackflushing, etc. I understand that the MaraX already takes away some of the pain points (i.e. no cooling flush). Not that keen to spend 1-2 hours weekly on maintenance.

2) Would the MaraX (when used to its max potential) produce significantly better shots? Or would its edge be primarily no-wait steaming capability?

3) The MaraX's 22min warm-up time is fairly long, although that can be offset with a smart timer. On the other hand, how much time would the Victoria require, when switching from coffee to steam mode?

Appreciate your thoughts!


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## Jony

Do you have a sort of budget, I know said machine prices,I love my Niche I can afford any grinder keep your eyes peeled next few weeks.


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## borez

Jony said:


> Do you have a sort of budget, I know said machine prices,I love my Niche I can afford any grinder keep your eyes peeled next few weeks.


 Both Victoria and MaraX machines would be within my budget, the MaraX at the top of what I'm willing to spend. Have ordered my Sette, so I'm locked in.


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## Stanic

If you're not keen on spending 1-2 hours a week on machine maintenance you'd better be getting something like Cafelat Robot


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## Jony

Are you in the uk. Well then the Mara X or try a second Minima would excellent for you, Some on here actually the sette is pretty good


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## Jony

This is what I would do is buy this and decent £200 second hand grinder


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## borez

Stanic said:


> If you're not keen on spending 1-2 hours a week on machine maintenance you'd better be getting something like Cafelat Robot


 Thanks for the suggestion. That seems to be a popular option for many, but based on James Hoffman's video there are more steps in brewing a shot? Not to mention requiring another milk steamer.



Jony said:


> This is what I would do is buy this and decent £200 second hand grinder


 Thanks - saw this being easy on maintenance. However, this is over my budget, and there are no used ones in my part of the world.


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## Jony

Did you click the link? plus a £200 grinder second hand its under budget, or if you don't mind a daily grind get a Nice hand grinder, so your still under budget


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## borez

Jony said:


> Did you click the link? plus a £200 grinder second hand its under budget, or if you don't mind a daily grind get a Nice hand grinder, so your still under budget


 I did. I'm not based in the UK unfortunately, and I've bought the Sette. Getting a hand grinder would complicate things further.


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## Jony

OK, hope you pick some thing long term,


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## Stanic

Well there is no free lunch really  as you correctly pointed out

Manual espresso makers are easy to maintain but need more workflow in exchange

every machine needs some maintenance, lever ones the least


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## Stanic

And out of the two I'd go with Mara of course


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## MediumRoastSteam

@borez, I agree with Stanic here.

Maintenance is key to keep a coffee machine in tip top condition. If you are not prepared to keep it clean, maintain gaskets, lubricate and prevent scaling, then this is not the right thing for you, honestly.

The e61 group is tried and tested, but it has its drawbacks such as heat up time and lubrication.

The Victoria is a single boiler dual use (SBDU) machine. In other words, it's an improvement on a Gaggia Classic or Rancilio Silvia, but that's the same principle. You need to bring the boiler up to steam temp and cool down again if you want to switch between brew coffee and steam milk. In other words, a right pain in he neck. If you want a simple workflow, this might not be the right thing for you. You'll always be wondering why you didn't buy the MaraX.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Ps: cleaning and maintenance goes for the grinder too.


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## borez

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @borez, I agree with Stanic here.
> 
> Maintenance is key to keep a coffee machine in tip top condition. If you are not prepared to keep it clean, maintain gaskets, lubricate and prevent scaling, then this is not the right thing for you, honestly.
> 
> The e61 group is tried and tested, but it has its drawbacks such as heat up time and lubrication.
> 
> The Victoria is a single boiler dual use (SBDU) machine. In other words, it's an improvement on a Gaggia Classic or Rancilio Silvia, but that's the same principle. You need to bring the boiler up to steam temp and cool down again if you want to switch between brew coffee and steam milk. In other words, a right pain in he neck. If you want a simple workflow, this might not be the right thing for you. You'll always be wondering why you didn't buy the MaraX.


 Thanks for this. Don't get me wrong, I understand the importance of maintenance. I'm just wondering if the whole regime involves spending 2-3 hours on a weekly basis.

Given my usage patterns, what would be a reasonable maintenance regime? From what I read, backflushing is on a weekly basis (w/ lubrication if detergent is used), gasket cleaning on a monthly basis? Not sure about descaling if water softeners are used (my water here isn't hard).


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## MediumRoastSteam

borez said:


> Thanks for this. Don't get me wrong, I understand the importance of maintenance. I'm just wondering if the whole regime involves spending 2-3 hours on a weekly basis.
> 
> Given my usage patterns, what would be a reasonable maintenance regime? From what I read, backflushing is on a weekly basis (w/ lubrication if detergent is used), gasket cleaning on a monthly basis? Not sure about descaling if water softeners are used (my water here isn't hard).


So, my usage pattern is the same as yours.

I used to have a a Profitec 700, a dual boiler e61 machine.

I used to:
- clean the shower screen and around it with a brush after every use (same for any machine). (Seconds)
- drop the shower screen every 3rd day and wash the screen, the gasket and clean around the dispersion screen; (2 minutes)
- backflush with water every 3rd day or so;
- chemically backflush every 5 weeks, and, consequently, disassemble the lever cam, clean and re-lube; (30 minutes, it becomes second nature eventually).
- grinder: clean the insides once a month.

Given my usage, for the past two years I've been using a La Pavoni Europiccola. It's great for my usage (and small kitchen), as well as fast heat up time. I do miss the Profitec in other aspects though.


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## borez

MediumRoastSteam said:


> So, my usage pattern is the same as yours.
> 
> I used to have a a Profitec 700, a dual boiler e61 machine.
> 
> I used to:
> - clean the shower screen and around it with a brush after every use (same for any machine). (Seconds)
> - drop the shower screen every 3rd day and wash the screen, the gasket and clean around the dispersion screen; (2 minutes)
> - backflush with water every 3rd day or so;
> - chemically backflush every 5 weeks, and, consequently, disassemble the lever cam, clean and re-lube; (30 minutes, it becomes second nature eventually).
> - grinder: clean the insides once a month.
> 
> Given my usage, for the past two years I've been using a La Pavoni Europiccola. It's great for my usage (and small kitchen), as well as fast heat up time. I do miss the Profitec in other aspects though.


 Noted, thank you. How about descaling?


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## MediumRoastSteam

borez said:


> Noted, thank you. How about descaling?


The idea here is that one should prevent scaling. Descaling a dual boiler is a pain, an HX not as bad. But, there are reports of corroded chrome inside e61, etc. So, try to avoid it.

Water such as Volvic will not scale up (well, it will, but will take years), so s light descale every 3 years is not a bad thing.

There are threads here about boiler friendly water for boilers etc.


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## Northern_Monkey

@borez My Mara maintenance schedule, this is bare minimum really and my water is OK but not great:

*Daily* - Back flush with water a couple of times after use and use a cloth to wipe the shower screen. Clean the steam wand after use. Rinse drip tray. Couple of minutes each day.

*Weekly* - Twice a week drop the shower screen, clean group head with sponge and wash the gasket plus screen. Light coating of Molykote on the group head. Wash out the water tank each week and drip tray. Maybe 20 mins a week.

*Every month* - disassemble and clean coffee grinder. Takes 30 minutes.

*Every two months* - chemical backflush with puly caff, lube puns and cam afterwards. Takes 20 mins.

*Every 6 months *- descale coffee machine, takes a couple of hours due to rinse cycles. If you lose chrome from the mushroom add on another 30 minutes to disassemble, then another 20 to lube the cam and pins.


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## Northern_Monkey

> 7 minutes ago, Northern_Monkey said:


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## Northern_Monkey

Stanics suggestion of a small lever machine like a Europiccola is a good one in my view.

In one of James Hoffman's reviews he explained that the reason he hadn't had an espresso machine at home in 10 years was because it was another hobby and he had enough coffee machine maintenance in his day job.

I agree with him on that point, unless you put the prep work for the machines, the right water and cleaning schedules you won't be getting your moneys worth in terms of taste etc.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Northern_Monkey said:


> @borez
> 
> *Every 6 months *- descale coffee machine, takes a couple of hours due to rinse cycles. If you lose chrome from the mushroom add on another 30 minutes to disassemble, then another 20 to lube the cam and pins.


Why descale so often? Isn't it easier to prevent limescsle formation as advised in this forum? That was the routine I had with my Gaggia Classic and I used straight tap water!


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## Northern_Monkey

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Why descale so often? Isn't it easier to prevent limescsle formation as advised in this forum? That was the routine I had with my Gaggia Classic and I used straight tap water!


 @MediumRoastSteam It's a bit of a trade off really, sounds like your tap water could be softer if you got 6 months between goes?

I'm in London and the water is ridiculously hard. My machine needs a descale every six months even with using filtered water and another one in the tank.

I agree that prevention is better than cure, unfortunately my other half has vetoed a counter top RO system like the Ozmio as I'm occupying a lot of kitchen space as it is. No go on using bottled water from the transport, storage and plastic bottles perspective.

Maybe looking at bigger under counter system if we move or get a kitchen refurb in the future, but not any time soon.


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## Jony

Your the boss remember that ?


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## Border_all

Jony said:


> Your the boss remember that ?


 And his wive is CEO with controlling shares. Lol ?


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## Northern_Monkey

@Jony - Thanks for the reminder!

To be fair she is very reasonable about putting up with random coffee chat and my multiple kit based hobbies (coffee is just one of them) and will go to coffee London again this year. So descaling twice a year is a reasonable compromise overall... ?


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## Jony

I use to Race brushless cars and 11/5 brushless home bulit Hpi Baja I know the pain


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## MediumRoastSteam

Northern_Monkey said:


> @MediumRoastSteam It's a bit of a trade off really, sounds like your tap water could be softer if you got 6 months between goes? I'm in London and the water is ridiculously hard. My machine needs a descale every six months even with using filtered water and another one in the tank.
> 
> I agree that prevention is better than cure, unfortunately my other half has vetoed a counter top RO system like the Ozmio as I'm occupying a lot of kitchen space as it is. No go on using bottled water from the transport, storage and plastic bottles perspective.
> 
> Maybe looking at bigger under counter system if we move or get a kitchen refurb in the future, but not any time soon.


I think you've missed the point. I never said 6 months between descales. I said maybe like 3 years?

When I had my Classic (back in 2011) I didn't know half of the stuff. I fed it tap water, and descale every 2 or 3 months. When I upgraded to my Profitec (it was also 12x more expensive) 3 years later, I was more clued on, and learnt a lot being here in this forum. Since, my machines never had tap water inside them, ever. I ran my Profitec on Tesco's Ashbeck, and, two years later, there was hardly any scale - nothing worth descaling that's for sure. There's even a thread about that in this forum.

I have since moved on to a La Pavoni and, as per recommendation, Waitrose Lockhills is the way to go as is better than Ashbeck. Or Volvic if you are happy to pay twice the price. Unfortunately the Osmio for me, given my usage, is a no no.

The guidance is to avoid descaling. Your machine will last much, much longer if you do so.

I live in the Thames Valley. The water coming out of my tap is very hard, to the tune of 250-300ppm.

Ps: I understand the circumstances why bottled water is not an option for you.


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## Northern_Monkey

@MediumRoastSteam Fair enough, let's not descale the thread further! ?

Thanks for you input, I'm happy with my current approach for the time being.


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## borez

Northern_Monkey said:


> @borez My Mara maintenance schedule, this is bare minimum really and my water is OK but not great:
> 
> *Daily* - Back flush with water a couple of times after use and use a cloth to wipe the shower screen. Clean the steam wand after use. Rinse drip tray. Couple of minutes each day.
> 
> *Weekly* - Twice a week drop the shower screen, clean group head with sponge and wash the gasket plus screen. Light coating of Molykote on the group head. Wash out the water tank each week and drip tray. Maybe 20 mins a week.
> 
> *Every month* - disassemble and clean coffee grinder. Takes 30 minutes.
> 
> *Every two months* - chemical backflush with puly caff, lube puns and cam afterwards. Takes 20 mins.
> 
> *Every 6 months *- descale coffee machine, takes a couple of hours due to rinse cycles. If you lose chrome from the mushroom add on another 30 minutes to disassemble, then another 20 to lube the cam and pins.


 Thanks all for the advice, this gives me insight on what to expect. Did some research, and If I can summarize:

Areas of lubrication:

- shaft cam barrel, the cam, pins (after chemical backflushing)
- group head (after cleaning screen + gasket) - not sure where is this? Along the circular edges?
- Rubber gasket around the tip of mushroom head (typically after descaling?)

Descaling
- I'm not exactly sure what this means: "If you lose chrome from the mushroom add on another 30 minutes to disassemble". Are you referring to the need to wash the mushroom, if the coating flakes off? Understand from some tutorials that the mushroom is removed and soaked in descaling solution (but not for too long).

- Understand the best solution is to ensure proper water softness (so as to avoid descaling). Apart from bottled water and water treatment systems, would water softeners suffice?

EDIT: checked my country's water reports, and averaged alkalinity is 21 (ranging from 6-46 mg/L), and averaged hardness 61 (ranging from 30-154mg/L).

Once again, many thanks!


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## DavecUK

Don't overthink it...it's really no biggie and it all takes very little time...

Get an Osmio Zero (i've got shares in the company)  if you can afford it, will keep the machine free of scale and probably relatively fault free as well. Look out for anyone organising a 321 offer for the Osmio.


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## Northern_Monkey

@borez- You are correct on the bits that need to be lubed after a chemical back flush. By "group head" I meant the protruding bit that the shower screen clips over that the water comes out of, it gets coated with coffee bits/oils like the shower screen does. The "mushroom" is the upper sleeve assy in the below diagram.

@DavecUK and @MediumRoastSteam are right, prevention is better than cure 










https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/rusty-e61-mushroom-what-next-t5777.html


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## DavecUK

That photo is guaranteed to give him confidence


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## MediumRoastSteam

borez said:


> Thanks all for the advice, this gives me insight on what to expect. Did some research, and If I can summarize:
> 
> Areas of lubrication:
> 
> - shaft cam barrel, the cam, pins (after chemical backflushing)
> 
> - group head (after cleaning screen + gasket) - not sure where is this? Along the circular edges?
> 
> - Rubber gasket around the tip of mushroom head (typically after descaling?)
> 
> Descaling
> 
> - I'm not exactly sure what this means: "If you lose chrome from the mushroom add on another 30 minutes to disassemble". Are you referring to the need to wash the mushroom, if the coating flakes off? Understand from some tutorials that the mushroom is removed and soaked in descaling solution (but not for too long).
> 
> - Understand the best solution is to ensure proper water softness (so as to avoid descaling). Apart from bottled water and water treatment systems, would water softeners suffice?
> 
> EDIT: checked my country's water reports, and averaged alkalinity is 21 (ranging from 6-46 mg/L), and averaged hardness 61 (ranging from 30-154mg/L).
> 
> Once again, many thanks!


An alternative if the maintenance / lube of the e61 group puts you off, there are machines like the ACS Minima which only have the upper part of the e61 group, the water inlet and depressurisation is controlled by a 3-way solenoid valve, so there's no need for disassembly or lubrication as such.

Imagine a MaraX with that and a recessed hot water tap.... (dreaming aloud here, maybe Lelit is watching ) - win win situation all around


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## borez

Thanks all! I've gotten much confidence, and went ahead to order the MaraX. ETA in my part of the world is in mid April, so can't wait to receive it.


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