# Inconsistent timings with my minima



## galey (Sep 5, 2021)

I'm having problems with consistent timings with shots e.g. this morning 1st shot 18g in 36g ish in 35 seconds 2rd same ratio but 30 seconds 3rd same ratio in 35 seconds this seems to be happening a lot. I grind with the niche zero then distribute it with my palm slightly then tap to knock it down then use a ocd distributor tool then tamp trying to do all these as consistently as possible. Anybody got an idea of what might be happening. Cheers


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Inconsistent prep.

e.g.

-Dose out by a fraction of a gram or more depending on the accuracy of the scales.

-Inconsistent bean quality/roast (not something you can control except for removing obviously pale beans).

-Other inconsistency with routine like the way the coffee is dosed into the portafilter (how evenly it goes in in the first place), how much you move the coffee with your palm, how hard you tap and how many times and how these things affect how the ocd tool moves things around.


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## galey (Sep 5, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> Inconsistent prep.


 That's what I was thinking but trying to be as consistent as I know how to be, will try different techniques. How do you prep?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I grind into the portafilter, tap the side to level it, tap once on the counter to settle and tamp. Otherwise I might stir it with a prong thing, use a spinning 'distribution tool' (they all just level) and then tamp. Not noticed any real difference with different methods or different variations of the above. Main thing is to get it done quickly with a repeatable level tamp and to tamp onto an even bed. After trying soft and hard tamps I've settled in between.


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## Evergreen88 (Jun 7, 2021)

Does it make any difference in the cup?

What beans are you using? Did you notice if this issue occurs with a specific bean/roast?


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## galey (Sep 5, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> I grind into the portafilter, tap the side to level it, tap once on the counter to settle and tamp. Otherwise I might stir it with a prong thing, use a spinning 'distribution tool' (they all just level) and then tamp. Not noticed any real difference with different methods or different variations of the above. Main thing is to get it done quickly with a repeatable level tamp and to tamp onto an even bed. After trying soft and hard tamps I've settled in between.


 @Rob1thanks I will try tweaking my prep to get better consistency


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## galey (Sep 5, 2021)

Evergreen88 said:


> Does it make any difference in the cup?
> 
> What beans are you using? Did you notice if this issue occurs with a specific bean/roast?


 Yes you can tell a big difference in the cup yesterday's was really sour.

I'm using red brick (square mile) at the minute, cannot say I've noticed if it's happened with specific bean so I would say not.


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## Evergreen88 (Jun 7, 2021)

galey said:


> Yes you can tell a big difference in the cup yesterday's was really sour.
> 
> I'm using red brick (square mile) at the minute, cannot say I've noticed if it's happened with specific bean so I would say not.


 Can it be a temperature problem? Do you warm up your machine for the same amount of time every time? Are they consecutive shots?


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## galey (Sep 5, 2021)

Maybe, I put it on 40 mins before I use it, the group head and the basket are always really hot but I thought the same this morning and it was the first that was long, the next 2 were shorter. Gonna write them down to keep track. Was thinking of back flushing first to get the pressure working do you think that could help?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I had a similar scenario back in the day with my Profitec 700 and Kinu M68.

I attributed to humidity after steaming milk after first shot.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

galey said:


> Maybe, I put it on 40 mins before I use it, the group head and the basket are always really hot but I thought the same this morning and it was the first that was long, the next 2 were shorter. Gonna write them down to keep track. Was thinking of back flushing first to get the pressure working do you think that could help?


 It's extremely unlikely to be temperature related assuming the machine has been heated for 30-40 minutes. Fairly certain there is something to be gained from running water through the group for 5 or so seconds prior to the shot (I use the water to heat the cup), you probably gain an extra degree in the portafilter and group. I don't know what you mean by 'pressure working' but there's no need to backflush.


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## galey (Sep 5, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> It's extremely unlikely to be temperature related assuming the machine has been heated for 30-40 minutes. Fairly certain there is something to be gained from running water through the group for 5 or so seconds prior to the shot (I use the water to heat the cup), you probably gain an extra degree in the portafilter and group. I don't know what you mean by 'pressure working' but there's no need to backflush.


 Just if it's not coming up to pressure as quick on the first shot, just putting it out there I'm not familiar with how the machines work I'm trying to learn


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Back flushing is unnecessary , just lift the lever for a few seconds, lower fit P/F brew.

Using your palm you may be compressing the puck unevenly.

Side tapping can displace coffee to one side in a ramp shape.

Try to get an even mound in the centre of the PF, then tamp using fingers to gauge equal compression. ( fingers on rim of basket)


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

galey said:


> Just if it's not coming up to pressure as quick on the first shot, just putting it out there I'm not familiar with how the machines work I'm trying to learn


 It shouldn't be an issue with machines of this type. I'm not sure it would be an issue with any machine without a fault. Maybe if you have a machine prone to water levels in the brew boiler dropping but the Minima avoids the usual cause of that....unless there's a leak somewhere between the brew boiler and the group that allows the level to drop and the group to cool?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@galey *Is your water hard (I think it is), what water are you using in the machine.*

*Do a test. *Without the portafilter loaded pull water through the group. Wait 30 seconds and then pull water through the group. It should come out of the group with "almost" no delay. Wait 2 hours, then again with no portafilter, pull water through the group....does it come through as quickly, or is there a delay?

I took special precautions to tweak the design to make it resistant/tolerant of minor brew circuit leaking....but you can only do so much.


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## galey (Sep 5, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @galey *Is your water hard (I think it is), what water are you using in the machine.*
> 
> *Do a test. *Without the portafilter loaded pull water through the group. Wait 30 seconds and then pull water through the group. It should come out of the group with "almost" no delay. Wait 2 hours, then again with no portafilter, pull water through the group....does it come through as quickly, or is there a delay?
> 
> I took special precautions to tweak the design to make it resistant/tolerant of minor brew circuit leaking....but you can only do so much.


 Hi @DavecUK

Im using water out of a osmio zero.

The first shot can through after 3 seconds and the second came through after 2 seconds. After two hours I repeated it and it came through almost straight away.

I've also noticed during to shot the pressure is dropping by half a bar.

Also the steam wand loses pressure when steaming. Been told about a valve inside that might sort this so will try it. Didn't know if you might have thought these were connected.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@galey Separate boilers, what goes on in the steam boiler has no effect on brewing. Sounds like the machines working OK, time to look at the other links in the chain.

I see you use the Niche...so unless that's faulty, which I doubt that leaves the man, the scales and the coffee


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## galey (Sep 5, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @galey Separate boilers, what goes on in the steam boiler has no effect on brewing. Sounds like the machines working OK, to look at the other links in the chain.


 Is losing the half bar of pressure during the shot standard?


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

galey said:


> Is losing the half bar of pressure during the shot standard?


 That's normal and from my experience depends on the beans, how fine you're grinding and puck degradation/viscosity.






Maybe a video showing a drop in steam pressure might help?

Regarding shot times I see variances as well (Minima and Niche) but not typically with back to back shots, although it can happen. It might be worth investing in a WDT tool with a maximum of 0.4mm needles and a dosing ring. That should help with distribution consistency.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

galey said:


> Is losing the half bar of pressure during the shot standard?


 Yup as @HVL87 said, the puck becomes more permeable as the shot progresses.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

galey said:


> I'm using red brick (square mile) at the minute, cannot say I've noticed if it's happened with specific bean so I would say not.


 You've got lots of help here so may not be this, but Red Brick needs 3 weeks rest minimum. They told me it's best at 4 weeks. There's info on their website about it too.


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## galey (Sep 5, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> It's extremely unlikely to be temperature related assuming the machine has been heated for 30-40 minutes. Fairly certain there is something to be gained from running water through the group for 5 or so seconds prior to the shot (I use the water to heat the cup), you probably gain an extra degree in the portafilter and group. I don't know what you mean by 'pressure working' but there's no need to backflush.





DavecUK said:


> @galey Separate boilers, what goes on in the steam boiler has no effect on brewing. Sounds like the machines working OK, time to look at the other links in the chain.
> 
> I see you use the Niche...so unless that's faulty, which I doubt that leaves the man, the scales and the coffee


 Thanks, will try man next 🤯it's so frustrating as I think I'm doing things ok. I will keep plugging away.


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## galey (Sep 5, 2021)

> 16 hours ago, HVL87 said:
> 
> That's normal and from my experience depends on the beans, how fine you're grinding and puck degradation/viscosity.


 Thanks l will be looking at my distribution. Thank for vid


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## galey (Sep 5, 2021)

Thanks for the reply's great help


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

galey said:


> Also the steam wand loses pressure when steaming. Been told about a valve inside that might sort this so will try it. Didn't know if you might have thought these were connected.


 The service/steam boiler will lose pressure when steaming because....you're steaming. You shouldn't be running out of steam but the pressure can drop quite a bit, but it's designed to take this into account. What valve have you been told about?


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## galey (Sep 5, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> The service/steam boiler will lose pressure when steaming because....you're steaming. You shouldn't be running out of steam but the pressure can drop quite a bit, but it's designed to take this into account. What valve have you been told about?


 A valve on top of the boiler that cuts it out, told to make sure it's got some play in it


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

galey said:


> A valve on top of the boiler that cuts it out, told to make sure it's got some play in it


 I think you are referring to the anti-vac valve. If the valve was stuck shut, causing the boiler to not really pressurise, you'll see a total lack of pressure when you steam first. And then it will pressurise properly. From what you describe, I don't think that's the problem. You can check his without even opening your machine up. After bringing the machine up to temp, release some steam via the steam wand, for about 5 seconds. Do you have a massive temperature or pressure drop, that the machine takes a significant time to recover? If so, then the valve is the culprit. If this happens, please shoot a video next time. But, from what you describe, I doubt that's the case.


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## galey (Sep 5, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I think you are referring to the anti-vac valve. If the valve was stuck shut, causing the boiler to not really pressurise, you'll see a total lack of pressure when you steam first. And then it will pressurise properly. From what you describe, I don't think that's the problem. You can check his without even opening your machine up. After bringing the machine up to temp, release some steam via the steam wand, for about 5 seconds. Do you have a massive temperature or pressure drop, that the machine takes a significant time to recover? If so, then the valve is the culprit. If this happens, please shoot a video next time. But, from what you describe, I doubt that's the case.


 Nice thanks mate


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