# Fracino Cherub is using loads of water but without any shots.



## SSV (Jul 1, 2019)

Hey

My cherub seems to be using a lot of water on nothing. When it's on the water level goes down dramatically without pulling any shots.

Is this normal? I've had it since April 2019 and it was fine up until a few weeks ago.

It's a 50th anniversary Fracino Cherub I picked up second hand for reference.

I have my machine on a WiFi plug to come on at 7am and switch off at 1pm. How much water is normal to be used in standby for that length of time?

Any suggestions of what I should try / where I should look?

Thanks


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## NewboyUK (Jul 14, 2018)

Tank level or sight glass level? (cant remember if they have one)


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## SSV (Jul 1, 2019)

Tank level. Mine doesn't have a glass sight level.


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## NewboyUK (Jul 14, 2018)

Is the water in the tank hot if you put your hand in it?

How many shots are you pulling in those 6 hours?

And define 'a lot'? Half a tank? Full tank?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

It should not use any water really when switched on. Water, if you are using/losing it, then the only explanation is you have a leak. Is the boiler cutting in regularly. If so, then the boiler is telling the machine to fill it.......if you had a leak on the boiler, if you take the panels off you would see it.......another thought might be to put a cup under the water arm and see if it fills it. If it does, then toggle the switch as this happens on my L1 quite often.......starters, take the panels off and look for signs of a leak and take some photos and post them on here


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## SSV (Jul 1, 2019)

NewboyUK said:


> Is the water in the tank hot if you put your hand in it?
> 
> How many shots are you pulling in those 6 hours?
> 
> And define 'a lot'? Half a tank? Full tank?


 One shot usually right at the start of the day.

Group head is hot, and water is hot when it pumps through, although time for the water to come through plus the amount of water does seem to be slower and lower.

Losing about 1/3 to 1/2 a tank with minimal activity.


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## SSV (Jul 1, 2019)

The pump kicks in little and often, I presume that's to fill the boiler?

I can take panels off tomorrow, shall I do this when the machine is on and I presume I'm looking for water drops/pools near the boiler/boiler hardware.

I'll take pics and post here, thanks!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I'll guess it's a leaky vacuum breaker or safety valve.


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

SSV said:


> ...I can *take panels off* tomorrow, shall I do this when the *machine is on*...


 Please please be extra careful....remember...mains electricity can and does kill 💥


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Move the machine from its spot and check the counter - your aren't looking for water but a crusty stain. I'd thought nothing of it but apparently the was a sign it was leaking. Mine eventually sprung a (tiny) leak in the boiler welding. You should also hear nothing when it's idling. If there's a hiss it could be one of the safety valves slowly letting steam out.


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## SSV (Jul 1, 2019)

Hello!

So I have noticed some crusty small stains under the coffee machine.

I took the top off and watched if warm up, can see some water bubbling from the top of the boiler than connects to the pressure switch.

Early on this video where the boiler is coming up to temp and pressure: https://streamable.com/ohc4ia

Once the boiler is on, I'm seeing small escapes of steam on the right hand side of the machine.

E.g.

https://streamable.com/uiv15f

https://streamable.com/u49dts

Any ideas from these videos?

I haven't taken the casing off before on this Cherub 2nd gen, from what I can see, there's two screws either side on the bottom to remove to get it all off, does that sounds right?

Thanks for all your help so far!


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## NewboyUK (Jul 14, 2018)

2 bolds underneath front and 2 at rear. Bout 1in from each foot.

Flex the front edge of the side panels outwards and the case slides backwards.

Replacement of that small pipe be a start or maybe some ptfe around the thread?

In fixing one leak another may become apparent.

Case off and get everything nice and hot and pressured and take another look 👍

Obvs as above - mains power everywhere so power down before moving any covers


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Machine needs some maintenance, could be multiple leaks. Obvious one under the pressurestat which is why it's all rusty at the bottom of the stat. If that continues it may eventually corrode the contacts in the stat, if it hasn't done so already.

Fracino prosumer machines have a few weak points, one is the heating element gasket, often these leak but *usually after 5 years or so*....so I would check there, there will probably be evidence of it leaking. Check elsewhere on fittings for leaks. you may only have the one leak.

These prosumer machines need to be "case off" checked annually (when new, do it a month before the warranty expires!). Warm them up and watch/listen everywhere while they are warming up, then check em again after 1 hour. In this way small problems can be addressed before they cause bigger problems. Check the warranty with your machine, if it's 2 year or 1 year which may dictate your actions going forward.


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## SSV (Jul 1, 2019)

Thanks all.

Case off: https://streamable.com/qabkmc

Definitely leaking from the top like you suggested Dave.

I actually has the machine serviced in July 2019 but it springs to mind that it's been a good 18 months since the last one!

Worth getting a professional in or is this something an amateur and troubleshoot and fix?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

SSV said:


> Thanks all.
> 
> Case off: https://streamable.com/qabkmc
> 
> ...


 You should be able to troubleshoot and fix it. The main problem you will have is what looks to be a very poor design of that fitting for the pressurstat. I *think* they have used 2 compression fittings, marked in red and a length of copper tube to extend the fitting upwards to give room to fit the stat. If it is indeed a compression fitting on the stat (and it looks to be), it means applying the compression force when fitting onto the stat itself as you try and hold the stat body against that twisting force (not nice).

It looks like it might be leaking at both fittings.

If they are compression fitting, you can't use any sealant or PTFE tape...

So first get them off and clean things up.....see 2what you're dealing with...just in case they are not compression fittings (although they look to be)...or, if you think they are compression fittings try tightening them down a bit carefully...you don't want to snap anything. Never torque them, rap the end of the spanner with another (not to heavy object, short sharp raps to shock them on/off.









For any company designing an espresso machine...here is a tip....whatever the pressurestat screws into make sure it is a normal fitting not a compression fitting. It's a consumable and at least the user can use PTFE tape and hand tighten the thing....not have this sort of problem a few years down the road!


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## NewboyUK (Jul 14, 2018)

They are not compression fittings like plumbing fittings if thats in your head with olives etc.

Its more a short bit of pipe with a wedge shaped bit on each end. The mating surface to the stat/boiler are pretty flat. Tho the wedges on each end are compressed on at the factory.

Hope that clears it a bit


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## NewboyUK (Jul 14, 2018)

At least the older ones were.

The newer ones may look like this


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

NewboyUK said:


> They are not compression fittings like plumbing fittings if thats in your head with olives etc.
> 
> Its more a short bit of pipe with a wedge shaped bit on each end. The mating surface to the stat/boiler are pretty flat. Tho the wedges on each end are compressed on at the factory.
> 
> Hope that clears it a bit


 No that wasn't in my head at all, I realise they are not plumbing fittings and quite likely to be the brazed on brass mushrooms in your photo, although they may be the wedge shaped type that slip over the pipe.


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## NewboyUK (Jul 14, 2018)

Sorry DavecUK - was meant for the OP not for you - unsure if they know what to expect


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## SSV (Jul 1, 2019)

Got a reply from Fracino after sharing the same case off video:



> Please see link
> 
> https://www.fracino.com/downloads/parts/Cherub Parts Book 2008.pdf
> 
> ...


 Will order the parts and have a go at fixing in the coming weeks! Thanks everyone!


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## Nightrider_1uk (Apr 26, 2020)

That actually looked like it was leaking from the pressure stat, although I could be wrong.


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## SSV (Jul 1, 2019)

So I got an engineer around in the end as I got confused. Turns out Fracino sent me the wrong connecting part

The pressure stat and the tube connection have now been replaced and it's working like a dream.

Now I just need to dial in these Presto beans!

Thanks everyone.


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## gwapenut (Nov 5, 2011)

Just to resurrect this thread... I too will be replacing my Cherub pressure switch. How do I choose the correct setting for it and adjust it to how the old part behaved?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@gwapenut Why do you need to replace the pressurestat? (Is this what you mean by pressure switch)


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@gwapenut - if you replace that, then they usually come set correctly from the factory. In any case, you can adjust it, and you know what's right as long as the pressure gauge needle remains in the green zone (between 1 and 1.4 bar).

Why would you replace the pressure stat, unless it's faulty, it's what @DavecUK and I are wondering. I know you also mentioned this on another post, which got me questioning&#8230;.


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## gwapenut (Nov 5, 2011)

DavecUK said:


> @gwapenut Why do you need to replace the pressurestat? (Is this what you mean by pressure switch)


 Because after putting up with higher water consumption for a few weeks, I lifted the lid after the morning timer tripped my RCD two mornings in a row and saw steam oozing from its body, and condensed water inside the black pressure stat box.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Ah well, new Sirai it is then.


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## gwapenut (Nov 5, 2011)

Yup, arriving Tuesday. I gave up asking Siri to order it for me, we got into a very wibbly wobbly timey wimey loop


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## gwapenut (Nov 5, 2011)

Well I'm now trying to take off the old pressure switch. A spanner around the upper fitting (which is directly under the switch body) results in that linking pipe turning, along with the pressure switch.

I've put a bit of wd40 on the threads and will try again soon. Should I just hold the spanner steady while twisting the black pressure sta body?


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## gwapenut (Nov 5, 2011)

All is well, the wd40 and some of the brief knocks that Dave suggested earlier did the trick.

I had to back off the pressure by 2 revolutions / 4 half turns. The part wasn't from Fracino but is the Sirai part recommended for my Cherub. It's the 30A / 3-pole version, bigger and slightly noisier than the 2-pole 20A part it replaced but cited as a replacement for Fracino part FC169.


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## nightslayer (May 29, 2016)

gwapenut said:


> All is well, the wd40 and some of the brief knocks that Dave suggested earlier did the trick.
> 
> I had to back off the pressure by 2 revolutions / 4 half turns. The part wasn't from Fracino but is the Sirai part recommended for my Cherub. It's the 30A / 3-pole version, bigger and slightly noisier than the 2-pole 20A part it replaced but cited as a replacement for Fracino part FC169.


 Do you know if the 20A part works for the Cherub? Can see a 20A part on eBay selling for way cheaper than the 30A variety..


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## gwapenut (Nov 5, 2011)

Sorry I didn't get notified about this message.

I believe the original part was 20A but I could only find a 30A. The part I bought is bigger, more solid feeling, but noisier. If you can find an electrically correct 20A part, then I'd go with that,


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## McPaddles (Jan 4, 2017)

I’ve just replaced my pressure stat, as the machine would randomly go over pressure and dump water and steam in a dramatic fashion. Never seen the dog leave the kitchen so quick. It’s the anniversary edition Cherub, so getting on for nearly 10 years old I guess.
I went for the 30A version, and fitted it yesterday. Couldn’t believe how big the thing was. Thought I’d been sent the wrong part at first. Seems ok so far. Dog seems happier with it too. 
My question is how long should the heat/ pressure cycle be when the machine is at temp and sat idle? Mine is doing 5 seconds of heat which builds pressure to 1.2 bar, then takes 55 seconds to drop back to 0.9, when the cycle repeats. Sure it didn’t used to be like that, unless the new louder clunk of the 30A stat is throwing me.


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