# Londinium Compact (LC) is available soon



## JK009

According to Reiss, Londinium Compact (LC) is available in 12 months time

it seems Londinium LC is a small version of Londinium R. I think it is will suit my kitchen and in my budget frame

I hope it has no compromise to Londinium R

Some one with more infotrmation and rumour about Londinium LC , please share


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## JK009

This is what Reiss said :

it will be a lever machine - londinium is focused on lever espresso

it is an in house designed spring lever group, dipper fed with a PID, tank fed with a piston pump to load the water into boiler (i.e. to over come the internal pressure in the boiler) and as small and inexpensive as we can make it - in no way a competitor to the LR

it is at least 12 months away - it is a lot of work


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## coffeechap

Yep been chatting to Reiss about this for quite some time now


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## Balthazar B

JK009, you beat me to the quote. In fact, the machine will be quite different from the LR.


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## Kman10

Any news on a price range?


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## Balthazar B

Kman10 said:


> Any news on a price range?


"...as...inexpensive as we can make it" is all that's been said. I'll optimistically hazard a guess that it will be about 1400 pounds when all is said and done.


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## Thecatlinux

I will guess £950


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## glevum

Be interesting how it will not tip being compact?


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## Balthazar B

I suppose it could still be termed compact even if it has a very long base in the front to enable leverage. I'm imagining a machine with a dimunitive spring group like a Sama/Ponte Vecchio, although I suppose he could be using the Salvatore Compact as a model. Now how Reiss or anyone else can get a bespoke group manufactured, a PID included (though the Chinese PIDs are cheap nowadays), the machine assembled (presumably by Fracino), and then sell it into a small market for anything under about £1400 would elude me.


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## Thecatlinux

I dunno f I want to see a PID and I am wondering could you use the same group but without the spring .

as for tipping isn't that all about finding the center of mass and not letting the lever go beyond the horizontal point (or something like that )


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## MediumRoastSteam

I'm very tempted to see one of this... CoffeeChap made the comment to me the other day when he kindly showed me a Gaggia Factory 106. 12 Months away... Oh boy.


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## Stanic

I'm intrigued..

by Reiss from the Londinium forum:

"our commercial need is to have a product that retails around the £1000 mark, all in (the L1 is about £2000 all in and the L1-P about £3000)

the L1 leaves the cremina for dead in terms of consistently exceptional espresso, commercial grade steam power, a hot water tap, and several hundred dollars in your pocket to put toward a grinder, but the cremina is undeniably smaller and we are losing some sales to it as a result which we need to address

a smaller machine will drastically reduce shipping costs

i can almost guarantee the espresso will not be as good as the L1, in the same way that the L1 is not as good as the L1-P, otherwise there would be no reason to buy our more expensive offerings

The compact machines will not have water taps for example, as they add a lot of cost and weight and in a small boiler machine you don't really have sufficient water on board to feed them anyway

you will find pockets of opinion in places like HB that claim that a manual lever beats a spring lever, but these are the same people that fancy beating the house in las vegas in my view. it is certainly possible now and then, but over time a spring lever will beat their efforts into a cocked hat

our compact machines will have a full fat 58mm group, which offers owners the greatest amount of choice in baskets

we plan to offer two variants; a single boiler with no steam wand so we can really get the size and weight down, and a twin boiler model that will have a steam wand

we are also planning to forge our own group which I'm very much looking forward "

a small footprint dipper PID single boiler together with a stovetop steamer for occasional use would be ideal for me

I would like an option to plumb in and disable the pump


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## fatboyslim

A lever machine without a steam wand! Crazy! Would suit me!


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## kennyboy993

fatboyslim said:


> A lever machine without a steam wand! Crazy! Would suit me!


What about when you had guests?


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## fatboyslim

kennyboy993 said:


> What about when you had guests?


They drink espresso or tea....


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## slamm

deleted


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## Thecatlinux

I got excited when I saw this post resurrected


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## Niall

Any update on this new offering from Londinium? Thinking of going for the L-R but wouldn't mind finding out about this to either rule it out or wait.


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## Jollybean

When asked if any update on the Londinium forum Reiss replied

"not really. something for Q418 (the last quarter of this year). it will be the first all new spring lever group in how many decades?"


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## Jollybean

Not meant to be cryptic just the formatting copied from the Londinium forum! The quote is there if you look carefully


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## Jollybean

"not really. something for Q418 (the last quarter of this year). it will be the first all new spring lever group in how many decades?"

A way off yet by the sound of it


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## steveholt

I wish he just said it straight instead of Reiss ing it a bit.


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## Rakesh

This is something I am seriously interested in, can't wait for it to come out.


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## rich987

I guess this means a lot of bargains in the 'for sale' dept on the next few months!


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## Thecatlinux

coffeechap said:


> Yep been chatting to Reiss about this for quite some time now


Intresting conversation with you today also


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## Stanic

any more info?


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## Jony

Well I am sure it will be released very soon. And your comment is very cryptic, it's like you know something we don't.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Jony said:


> Well I am sure it will be released very soon. And your comment is very cryptic, it's like you know something we don't.


On the Londinium Forum if I'm not mistaken it says end of 2018.

If this machine will be what it's intended to be (A4 sheet footprint, 58mm group), I'll be all over it.


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## Jony

I might even sample one maybe







Still clueless though.


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## Benjijames28

It's the cost of these things that puts me off. When u break down what they actually do they really are not worth such a high price. That goes for most premium machines.


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## MildredM

Benjijames28 said:


> It's the cost of these things that puts me off. When u break down what they actually do they really are not worth such a high price. That goes for most premium machines.


Not in my opinion.


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## Thecatlinux

MildredM said:


> Not in my opinion.


Or mine .


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## MediumRoastSteam

Benjijames28 said:


> It's the cost of these things that puts me off. When u break down what they actually do they really are not worth such a high price. That goes for most premium machines.


I suppose it's like the car analogy, previously mentioned here:

A lovely Rolls Royce with all the bells and whistles can take you from A to B comfortably. Likewise the same can be said for a VW Golf.

At the end of the day as long as there's demand for high end equipment and there are people out there to pay for it, then there's a market.


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## Stanic

Benjijames28 said:


> It's the cost of these things that puts me off. When u break down what they actually do they really are not worth such a high price. That goes for most premium machines.


afaik, Reiss commented he wanted to be competitive on the ~1000 £ level with the L-C


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## Mrboots2u

Benjijames28 said:


> It's the cost of these things that puts me off. When u break down what they actually do they really are not worth such a high price. That goes for most premium machines.


Fairly massive generalisation based on owning which machines ?

Of all the machines, the L series seems to hold it price pretty well. There isnt a huge bundle of electronics in these to go kaput and are reasonable simple to do maintenance to.

Stuff costs money. Cheap stuff breaks down too and ends up in the bin,


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## Bolta

Any updates on the development of this machine?


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## DavecUK

Benjijames28 said:


> It's the cost of these things that puts me off. When u break down what they actually do they really are not worth such a high price. That goes for most premium machines.


It's quite a sweeping statement....why exactly do you have this opinion regarding premium machines, I assume you based your opinion on some facts/experiences?


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## Snakehips

Bolta said:


> Any updates on the development of this machine?


Six months back Reiss loosely suggested that the LC was 'something for Q418', that being the last quarter of 2018.

Four months back, in response to a query re the possibility of an October 2018 release he stated 'probably closer to December'

He also stated that 'There will be no pre-release information. One morning it will appear here in our webstore and off we go'

So still very much a case of wait and see.

Two months ago he did confirm that the intention was to price at under £1000 inclusive of delivery and taxes.


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## Kahweol

Sounds promising, considering that the R goes for 2K!


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## PPapa

Bolta said:


> Any updates on the development of this machine?





> unfortunately it is not going to see the light of day in 2018
> 
> this is the result getting pushed down the queue for development resource by much more influential customers than ourselves, namely Subway and more recently Nestle - this is just a fact of commercial life; there is nothing much i can do about it and i would do the same if the roles were reversed
> 
> i am happy to report that we now have development resource working on it and it is an exciting project given that we are forging an all new 58mm spring lever group in England


As per https://londiniumespresso.com/pre-sales-questions/1217-londinium-c?start=10#14968


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## MediumRoastSteam

PPapa said:


> As per https://londiniumespresso.com/pre-sales-questions/1217-londinium-c?start=10#14968


Oh well. Christmas won't be as expensive as planned then.


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## PPapa

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Oh well. Christmas won't be as expensive as planned then.


I started toying with the idea of a lever machine and got quite excited once I saw the LC announcement!


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## mctrials23

Benjijames28 said:


> It's the cost of these things that puts me off. When u break down what they actually do they really are not worth such a high price. That goes for most premium machines.


I think you underestimate the costs of building low volume high end consumer products.

You have to pay peoples wages, build prototypes, test, tool, repair etc.

I have no idea how many Londinium espresso machines they sell but I doubt its a huge huge number. As with all things, people have certain areas of their life they are willing to spend a lot of money on which other people would think mad. Personally I can't think of a bigger waste of money than spending thousands to go and sit on a beach somewhere hot for 2 weeks and read a book but plenty of people would love that.


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## Mrboots2u

mctrials23 said:


> I think you underestimate the costs of building low volume high end consumer products.
> 
> You have to pay peoples wages, build prototypes, test, tool, repair etc.
> 
> I have no idea how many Londinium espresso machines they sell but I doubt its a huge huge number. As with all things, people have certain areas of their life they are willing to spend a lot of money on which other people would think mad. Personally I can't think of a bigger waste of money than spending thousands to go and sit on a beach somewhere hot for 2 weeks and read a book but plenty of people would love that.


This ...


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## Norvin

I wonder if Reiss is after any beta testers....


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## ATZ

I was looking forward to this too, I just don't get the impression it's high on his priority list right now.


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## ashcroc

ATZ said:


> I was looking forward to this too, I just don't get the impression it's high on his priority list right now.


Think it may be Fracino's priorty list. Read somewhere they got a couple commercial contracts including Subway that has pushed this back a bit.


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## ATZ

ashcroc said:


> Think it may be Fracino's priorty list. Read somewhere they got a couple commercial contracts including Subway that has pushed this back a bit.


Yeah I read that on the Londinium forum Ash


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## Nopapercup

Do Fracino make Londinium machines? I was told this by someone who sells and services commercial machines. He said he'd never worked on a Londinium but was really scathing of Fracino machines.


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## MildredM

There are a couple of fantastic develop/build timeline threads over on HB that are worthwhile reads imo.

The factory tour here and the progress of the build/testing etc of the L1 here.


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## coffeechap

Norvin said:


> I wonder if Reiss is after any beta testers....


Wishful thinking


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## jimbojohn55

Latest on the Londinium chat website thingy -from Reis



think of the little la pavoni, olympia cremina, ponte vecchio or the elektra mica casa e leva, that is the class of machine the LC will be in, a world away from the LR

they are vastly different machines so i think it will be fairly easy for you to decide. the LC will be a stripped back direct fill machine without a hot water tap or elevated pre-infusion. it will be less than half the price of the LR
​


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## MediumRoastSteam

Has anyone heard any more news about this machine, or when it will materialise?


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## MildredM

Expect November/December 2019.


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## coffeechap

MildredM said:


> Expect November/December 2019.


 Think that is a little optimistic, however it is now on the priority list


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## KTD

Presumably no more information on what it will look like yet? Obviously interested, 58mm group compact lever would be nice, pavonis are great but the market is begging for something small that still feels rock solid.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## catpuccino

Yes I can feel my wallet rising from my pocket...


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## MediumRoastSteam

KTD said:


> Presumably no more information on what it will look like yet? Obviously interested, 58mm group compact lever would be nice, pavonis are great but the market is begging for something small that still feels rock solid.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The fact it will be compact, reliable and spring lever is the thing that I am interested here. Unlike be pontevechio Lusso export machines, which are not very reliable.


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## Jony

I have given up waiting for updates.


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## Mr Kirk

I'm hoping there's sight of it in time for Xmas.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Mr Kirk said:


> I'm hoping there's sight of it in time for Xmas.


Same here.


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## Mr Kirk

Wonder if they need testers?

(With almost no lever machine experience!)


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## Mrboots2u

Mr Kirk said:


> I'm hoping there's sight of it in time for Xmas.


 Seems unlikely


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## Jony

2021


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## coffeechap

Now that there is space in the build line, it is being developed, when it will be finished is anyone's guess, but it will be way before Christmas 2020 if that helps


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## PPapa

Mr Kirk said:


> Wonder if they need testers?
> 
> (With almost no lever machine experience!)


Haha


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## MildredM

It will be just in time for my Big Birthday ?


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## Jony

Wow 70 really?


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## MildredM

Jony said:


> Wow 70 really?


 Just a moment while I discuss a forum ban . . . ?


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## KTD

Spoke to Reiss yesterday and he said after Xmas they plan on concentrating 100% on the LC and looks like a mid 2020 release.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Kirk

KTD said:


> Spoke to Reiss yesterday and he said after Xmas they plan on concentrating 100% on the LC and looks like a mid 2020 release.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Any details of any specs?


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## KTD

Unfortunately not...

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## Mr Kirk

Uuuuurgh. Wait 6-9 months or buy a la pav now?


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## Fez

Mr Kirk said:


> Uuuuurgh. Wait 6-9 months or buy a la pav now?


 Buy a used la pav now then if you decide to change to the LC you should get most if not all of your money back


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## Mr Kirk

Fez said:


> Buy a used la pav now then if you decide to change to the LC you should get most if not all of your money back


I have thought that. They fetch good money on here second hand and a new one can be picked up for about £400 though.


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## mctrials23

I'm tempted by the olympia cremina in the for sale section but for not much more I should be able to pick up an LC sometime next year which I imagine will be a much better machine and 58mm so far easier to get accessories for.


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## KTD

That cremina is an absolute classic and well priced. The LC could drag on for another year and even then it's a new product that could have early flaws.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mctrials23

KTD said:


> That cremina is an absolute classic and well priced. The LC could drag on for another year and even then it's a new product that could have early flaws.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Oh I don't doubt that its a good price for what it is but ultimately its a very simple, well built level machine that is extortionately expensive brand new and that is reflected in the second hard prices. I'm not in any desperate hurry and I want to see what Londinium come up with. I would love an LR but they are simply outside of what I am willing to spend on an espresso machine.

I would be interested to know what justifies the cost of a brand new olympia cremina because at £2500 brand new I just can't see it. Genuine question because I can usually at least see kind of where large amounts on money go on expensive coffee machines but these have been unchanged largely for 50 years or so and are a very simple design.

I would love one but I can't see the pure value for money in them.


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## Mrboots2u

mctrials23 said:


> Oh I don't doubt that its a good price for what it is but ultimately its a very simple, well built level machine that is extortionately expensive brand new and that is reflected in the second hard prices. I'm not in any desperate hurry and I want to see what Londinium come up with. I would love an LR but they are simply outside of what I am willing to spend on an espresso machine.
> 
> I would be interested to know what justifies the cost of a brand new olympia cremina.


 its made in Switzerland, people buy into the branding.

their pump machines were fastically overpriced also


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## KTD

Completely agree with what you're saying and understand why you may want to wait, buying good secondhand would fill the gap and should enable you to resell at a similar price if you want to switch machines when it's out. All I would say is there are some machines that are built for now, some that you can make last forever with a lot of hard work and some that are built to last forever with minimal simple upkeep, the cremina falls into the last category hence its price.


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## mctrials23

KTD said:


> Completely agree with what you're saying and understand why you may want to wait, buying good secondhand would fill the gap and should enable you to resell at a similar price if you want to switch machines when it's out. All I would say is there are some machines that are built for now, some that you can make last forever with a lot of hard work and some that are built to last forever with minimal simple upkeep, the cremina falls into the last category hence its price.


 They do seem bombproof and people who have them tend to love them. My main concern about buying a second hand one now would be that if the LC is well received, the market for levers around £1000 could take a bit of a hit. Reiss is keeping schtum on the details so we don't know much about it yet but fingers crossed we will hear something in the next few months.


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## 4085

Mrboots2u said:


> its made in Switzerland, people buy into the branding.
> 
> their pump machines were fastically overpriced also


 luckily, it is not a pump machine!


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## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> luckily, it is not a pump machine!


 they - olympia make a pump machine ,if you wanna buy one of those at new prices go ahead


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## MediumRoastSteam

Mr Kirk said:


> Uuuuurgh. Wait 6-9 months or buy a la pav now?


My thoughts one year ago when the LC was talked about and with proposed release dates that never materialised. I bought a Pavoni, and most likely I'll be keeping her!


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## Slowpress

MediumRoastSteam said:


> My thoughts one year ago when the LC was talked about and with proposed release dates that never materialised. I bought a Pavoni, and most likely I'll be keeping her!


 Aside from the fact that the Londinium and the Pavoni are quite different machines, is there a discernible difference in the shots that come from each?


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## Mr Kirk

Slowpress said:


> Aside from the fact that the Londinium and the Pavoni are quite different machines, is there a discernible difference in the shots that come from each?


The londinium hasn't even been made yet.


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## Slowpress

Mr Kirk said:


> The londinium hasn't even been made yet.


 Yes, I realize the LC hasn't been made. My question was a general one, after reading the comment from @MediumRoastSteam; I was curious if the poster or other LP users had had a chance to have shots from the Londinium range of machines as well as the Pavoni. I was referencing the Londinium in general, not the LC. I suspect a *well made* shot from any model Londinium is a safe enough reference point for a comparison to a *well made* shot from a LaPavoni.


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## ashcroc

Slowpress said:


> Yes, I realize the LC hasn't been made. My question was a general one, after reading the comment from @MediumRoastSteam; I was curious if the poster or other LP users had had a chance to have shots from the Londinium range of machines as well as the Pavoni. I was referencing the Londinium in general, not the LC. I suspect a *well made* shot from any model Londinium is a safe enough reference point for a comparison to a *well made* shot from a LaPavoni.


@MildredM has both.


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## Mr Kirk

Slowpress said:


> Yes, I realize the LC hasn't been made. My question was a general one, after reading the comment from @MediumRoastSteam; I was curious if the poster or other LP users had had a chance to have shots from the Londinium range of machines as well as the Pavoni. I was referencing the Londinium in general, not the LC. I suspect a *well made* shot from any model Londinium is a safe enough reference point for a comparison to a *well made* shot from a LaPavoni.


A londinium costs about 5 times as much?

I'm not so sure it's a fair comparison, although may be an interesting one.


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## Slowpress

Mr Kirk said:


> A londinium costs about 5 times as much?
> 
> I'm not so sure it's a fair comparison, although may be an interesting one.


 Taste is the only aspect I wanted to query, nothing more.☺


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## MediumRoastSteam

Slowpress said:


> Yes, I realize the LC hasn't been made. My question was a general one, after reading the comment from @MediumRoastSteam; I was curious if the poster or other LP users had had a chance to have shots from the Londinium range of machines as well as the Pavoni. I was referencing the Londinium in general, not the LC. I suspect a *well made* shot from any model Londinium is a safe enough reference point for a comparison to a *well made* shot from a LaPavoni.


I do not have a Londinium, but have used one at forum days. It's different, but then again the machine is very different. Saying that, Reiss from Londinium says the LC will produce a different shot from the existing L1 (obviously, otherwise he would've killed his own product).


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## MediumRoastSteam

Slowpress said:


> Taste is the only aspect I wanted to query, nothing more.


A very subjective thing nonetheless.


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## Slowpress

I think my admittedly overly general question sparked a very different train of thought (in the reader) than I had intended. And, yes, taste is subjective, but I do feel there is something of merit in hearing an *opinion* from the same individual who is doing the tastings on the relevant machines. Again, the only intent of my question was a very general interest, on a very general plane.... not comparing the merits of either machine, not intending to choose (or buy) one over the other.

Not to worry, let it rest there.


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## MildredM

You can get exceptionally tasting shots from both. Every time from the L-R. Most of the time from the LaPav. Seeings as its such a horrid day and I have a spare half an hour I will fire up the Pavoni right now and do a side by side.


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## Slowpress

MildredM said:


> You can get exceptionally tasting shots from both. Every time from the L-R. Most of the time from the LaPav. Seeings as its such a horrid day and I have a spare half an hour I will fire up the Pavoni right now and do a side by side.


 That's very kind! And your answer is in keeping with my curiosity!


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## MildredM

Sorry if I am derailing slightly but it is still Londinium - comparing a shot made on the LaPav. Comparing taste, mouthfeel, and . . . Well, that's all really. But adding some nice photos anyway!

Shot prep first. 15g for both baskets.


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## MildredM

Shot appearance.









And after a few minutes.


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## Slowpress

Lovely illustrations!


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## KTD

MildredM said:


> Shot appearance.
> 
> <img alt="D1345850-37DF-462B-BA62-6FA681E485A0.thumb.jpeg.3b1bdad36464a9fadfdf733bc328c411.jpeg" data-fileid="33519" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_11/D1345850-37DF-462B-BA62-6FA681E485A0.thumb.jpeg.3b1bdad36464a9fadfdf733bc328c411.jpeg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> And after a few minutes.
> <img alt="17169F21-2B8F-45F2-A014-5C2B066DD481.thumb.jpeg.e5ca32ada8836212111fa77d13d15e09.jpeg" data-fileid="33520" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_11/17169F21-2B8F-45F2-A014-5C2B066DD481.thumb.jpeg.e5ca32ada8836212111fa77d13d15e09.jpeg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


Come on pavoni you can win this!

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## Slowpress

MildredM said:


> Sorry if I am derailing slightly but it is still Londinium - comparing a shot made on the LaPav. Comparing taste, mouthfeel, and . . . Well, that's all really. But adding some nice photos anyway!
> 
> Shot prep first. 15g for both baskets.
> 
> View attachment 33517
> 
> 
> View attachment 33518


 This is pure art! Beautiful!


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## MildredM

The shot from the L-R, black cup, was sweeter and had hints of raspberries. The shot from the LaPav in the red cup had a stand out dark chocolate taste but was very slightly sour. I felt the LaPav deserved a second shot, a slightly FINER* grind this time, it was probably more up to temp too and produced a more fruity shot which evolved into a sweet chocolate taste as it cooled a bit. 
And finally a third pair of shots to show them with 80g milk (steamed in one batch). Both shots were tasty with milk, no sour or bitterness. If pushed to say I would admit I preferred the taste of the L-R shot but that doesn't mean it is better.

*edit to correct to finer grind.


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## jimbojohn55

my money is on the Londinium


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## Slowpress

Hey guys, this is not a competition, just an interesting chat about shots from each! Wonderfully friendly to two wonderful machines!?

@MildredM, thank you for doing this side-by-side! And for the interesting tasting notes & temperature factors as well! (This is another interesting aspect to espresso shots, and to coffee in general, how the flavour notes change as the shot cools, fruits yield to chocolate & nuts. Sometimes, it is worthwhile to let it sit for 10 minutes & taste, as it can be so different!)


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## KTD

Slowpress said:


> Hey guys, this is not a competition, just an interesting chat about shots from each! Wonderfully friendly to two wonderful machines!


It is a competition, definitely. And now anyone who is not happy with this farce of a competition is free to send abuse@mildredm 's way 

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## Mr Kirk

MildredM said:


> The shot from the L-R, black cup, was sweeter and had hints of raspberries. The shot from the LaPav in the red cup had a stand out dark chocolate taste but was very slightly sour. I felt the LaPav deserved a second shot, a slightly coarser grind this time, it was probably more up to temp too and produced a more fruity shot which evolved into a sweet chocolate taste as it cooled a bit.
> And finally a third pair of shots to show them with 80g milk (steamed in one batch). Both shots were tasty with milk, no sour or bitterness. If pushed to say I would admit I preferred the taste of the L-R shot but that doesn't mean it is better.
> 
> <img alt="5EF265A0-A9A0-472F-AD9C-ED7B9B826EEC.thumb.jpeg.804ddbe9a82e184983054d4afcf8b0ed.jpeg" data-fileid="33523" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_11/5EF265A0-A9A0-472F-AD9C-ED7B9B826EEC.thumb.jpeg.804ddbe9a82e184983054d4afcf8b0ed.jpeg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


I thought sour would mean a finer grind?


----------



## Slowpress

Mr Kirk said:


> I thought sour would mean a finer grind?


 I have found a cooler brewing temperature can alleviate (some types of) sourness.


----------



## MildredM

Mr Kirk said:


> I thought sour would mean a finer grind?


 You are quite right and actually, it WAS slightly finer. My new MAX goes the opposite way from the Flat for grind fineness and as I sat down to type I glanced up at the grinder and typed coarse. I will correct the post


----------



## Hasi

what pressure (profiles) did you employ?

Milly has a slightly different setup than humble me - enabling her (or Ian, hopefully most of the time) to actually read group pressure during a push/pull on the LaPav.

With a manual lever there comes another delicate variable into play, muscle memory.

In my experience with an almost 50yo LaPavoni and an Alex Izzo Leva, these two machines are completely different beasts.

Love them, but wouldn't really be able to pull the same shot on both - this is down to basket size in the first place, then group water capacity, 10-11bar spring pressure on the Izzo (I'd never lean on LaPav to create that much force).

Anyhow, thank you for Q and A - what an interesting test after all!

Deffo have to get my kit lined up and see what I can come up with! One day...


----------



## Slowpress

Hasi said:


> Love them, but wouldn't really be able to pull the same shot on both - this is down to basket size in the first place, then group water capacity, 10-11bar spring pressure on the Izzo (I'd never lean on LaPav to create that much force).


 The different flavour & texture results from different machines, and what appeals to each of us about those differences, is interesting to me. It is not a one-size fits all, just different machines (and grinders) giving us broader appreciation in our overall love affair with espresso (again, not necessarily better or worse, just different).

There are very attractive flavours & textures to be found with lower pressure shots, too... all these variables & outcomes make for a hobby without any risk of boredom! I like a journey that never ends, where I can learn something all the time.

It is a very different discussion when we put aside thoughts of competition, and look at different devices simply for what they bring to the table, and gain enjoyment & knowledge from them all. Really appreciate the insight you all bring forward with your experiences on a wide variety of devices. Thank you, all!


----------



## Marocchino

Reiss seems to have posted on his news section an update on LC;

*
General update
*

*BY REISS GUNSON ON WEDNESDAY, 18 MARCH 2020 13:57*

*3. I am aware that many of you believe the LC machine will never see the light of day, and indeed i have shared your view on occasions. However with the impact of COVID-19 i am hopeful that we might get it to market sooner rather than later, by which i do not mean imminently, but i am now confident that we will get it to market this year as i think some capacity in the development team at our manufacturer will become available by the end of April*

*4. We expect the wireless dongles to be ready imminently, we are waiting for the final version of the app to be released to us*

He seems to be keeping the interest ticking over for the long awaited LC and the Dongle for the LR.


----------



## christos_geo

Dongle now live on Londinium store! Just ordered mine









Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

christos_geo said:


> Dongle now live on Londinium store! Just ordered mine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


You got me excited for a moment... thought they finally released the LC!


----------



## MildredM

christos_geo said:


> Dongle now live on Londinium store! Just ordered mine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


 You just beat me to it!!


----------



## Jony

Not to worry soon be 2021🤣


----------



## mctrials23

Ordered along with a few spares. Their shipping always stings but can't wait to be able to change the PI without any faff.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Has anyone heard anything more about the mythical LC?


----------



## PPapa

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Has anyone heard anything more about the mythical LC?


Sometime later this year, according to Reiss


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

PPapa said:


> Sometime later this year, according to Reiss


Next year then


----------



## Jony

Looks like maybe a Conti then😎


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

So, mid 2017 Londinium announced this LC would be available soon, in 12 months time. (See first post).

2 years have passed after the expected release, and nothing.

I might be too naive, but begs the question what's the point of announcing something that's by no means remotely ready to release into market? Londinium might as well have kept quiet, and, one day, when things are set and when there's an agreed date on when the production line starts, then make the announcement.

But apparently it's coming by the end of the year... we shall see... The track record does not look good though...


----------



## Jony

Acs did the same on the Vostok 1 Lever. So its not just these.


----------



## Marocchino

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I might be too naive, but begs the question what's the point of announcing something that's by no means remotely ready to release into market?


 Wasn't the WiFi preinfusion dongle a bit of a long wait after the original announcement?

Perhaps it's just a process of keeping interest in the brand/product?

FWIW, I had a message conversation with him after the R 24 video was posted to see what drove this "development" with its added price hike for the perceived gain of a quieter pump. He mentioned product evolution and that the R24 was still cheaper than an Olympia Cremina he added his LC would be along this year and would be about £1000?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Marocchino said:


> Wasn't the WiFi preinfusion dongle a bit of a long wait after the original announcement?
> Perhaps it's just a process of keeping interest in the brand/product?
> FWIW, I had a message conversation with him after the R 24 video was posted to see what drove this "development" with its added price hike for the perceived gain of a quieter pump. He mentioned product evolution and that the R24 was still cheaper than an Olympia Cremina he added his LC would be along this year and would be about £1000?


Ha, interesting.

If Reiss gets this right, it will fill a huge gap in the market: compact, spring lever, 58mm, and a steam wand. The nearest thing to this is an Elektra Microcasa or a PV Lusso, but they all have their quirks.

We shall see.


----------



## Stanic

was it a smoke screen for the R24?


----------



## filthynines

Marocchino said:


> Wasn't the WiFi preinfusion dongle a bit of a long wait after the original announcement?
> 
> Perhaps it's just a process of keeping interest in the brand/product?


 Though at the expense of nobody taking what you say at face value any more.


----------



## davril

Is this going to be manufactured by Fracino?

I was told they will have lever version of some of their domestic models (Classico, Cherub etc) coming later this year.

I guess the timeline would fit.


----------



## mctrials23

I assume it will be manufactured by Fracino like all their other machines.

Have to say, as much as I love the LR, I have not been impressed with Fracino.

LR arrived missing a jumper for the Digital PI module that rendered it useless. Had to get that sent out to me and had to take apart the PI module to install.

Went through 2 anti-vac valves before I got one that worked and didn't leak (probably just a bad batch rather than fracino).

Nut behind the group head was leaking and oozing sealant.

Took the steam wand tip off the other day to find that they had cross threaded it. I wondered why it needed a wrench to get it all the way off.

Reiss has been great about solving these problems but Fracino seem like their quality control is honestly crap.


----------



## Marocchino

mctrials23 said:


> Reiss has been great about solving these problems but Fracino seem like their quality control is honestly crap.


 .... for the "premium" cost of the machine, I'd have expected it to work straight out of the box, or is that expecting too much? Although it sounds like Reiss resolved the issues in conjunction with your handy work, and no doubt, you learned a couple of things in the process - that's still not the point. Your machine is not a great advert for Fracino.

Wonder how many of them arrive with Q.A issues - or perhaps you just had a Friday afternoon machine?

I think the new control board for the R24 variant is an in house Fracino designed product.....hmmm 🤔


----------



## mctrials23

Marocchino said:


> .... for the "premium" cost of the machine, I'd have expected it to work straight out of the box, or is that expecting too much? Although it sounds like Reiss resolved the issues in conjunction with your handy work, and no doubt, you learned a couple of things in the process - that's still not the point. Your machine is not a great advert for Fracino.
> 
> Wonder how many of them arrive with Q.A issues - or perhaps you just had a Friday afternoon machine?
> 
> I think the new control board for the R24 variant is an in house Fracino designed product.....hmmm 🤔


 Yeah, I was somewhat miffed despite Reiss getting parts sent out next day via expensive courier. Honestly, I haven't learned much because outside of the electronics, they are simple machines and replacing the jumper was an easy job once I got it open. I'm quite handy so this sort of thing isn't a concern.

I have heard bad things about Fracino and their attention to detail but I think almost all the LR owners on here haven't really had any issues (apart from the wireless dongle being held in by the owners prayers and a slight amount of friction.)

Hopefully I have just been unlucky.


----------



## Marocchino

mctrials23 said:


> Hopefully I have just been unlucky.


 Fully understand your feelings of being miffed. Were you were offered a straight replacement when it didn't work out of the box? Perhaps coffee machines fall into the category of we can sort it out together and your time for sorting it out your end is a given. Not sure what other products fall into this category.
Glad you've been able to resolve the machine problems to your satisfaction.


----------



## mctrials23

Marocchino said:


> Fully understand your feelings of being miffed. Were you were offered a straight replacement when it didn't work out of the box? Perhaps coffee machines fall into the category of we can sort it out together and your time for sorting it out your end is a given. Not sure what other products fall into this category.
> Glad you've been able to resolve the machine problems to your satisfaction.


 I wasn't very clear, sorry. It worked out of the box. The digital PI module wasn't working in so far as I couldn't change any of the settings as one of the buttons on the control panel wouldn't work until the jumper was fitted. Not a show stopped but coupled with the other issues has me questioning Fracinos QC.


----------



## Eklektik

I'm really looking forward to the LC. Have put my Rocket Ap on sale and I hope that the LC is my first lever in the not too distant future. Was looking out for the LR but now the LR24 is out of my budget. I hope the LC is not plumb only or something crazy to cut expense.

I also hope the NZ is a good grinder to pair with the LC but I have read that conical are preferred for medium/medium-dark roasts which levers do wonderful with and I tend to get those roasts more.


----------



## Marocchino

Eklektik said:


> for medium/medium-dark roasts which levers do wonderful with


 I don't have a lever so cannot speak from personal experience and don't feel qualified to comment on your point above, but can point you in the direction of some LR info regarding dark roasts.

I was reading on the Londinium support forum recently of a guy struggling to get a good shot out of his LR using a dark roast. He went really low on the preinfusion pressure but even that didn't appear to make enough of an improvement to the flavour.

Reiss recommended he could try using a restrictor installed in the thermosiphon circuit of the LR - to help lower the water flow and therefore the temperature 🤔 .I didn't realise this was an option to cope with darker roasts, or that further considerations maybe necessary with the LR to accommodate darker roasts.

https://londiniumespresso.com/forum/extraction-questions/1551-lr-dark-roast-extraction-pi-issue#16950


----------



## PPapa

Eklektik said:


> I'm really looking forward to the LC. Have put my Rocket Ap on sale and I hope that the LC is my first lever in the not too distant future. Was looking out for the LR but now the LR24 is out of my budget. I hope the LC is not plumb only or something crazy to cut expense.
> I also hope the NZ is a good grinder to pair with the LC but I have read that conical are preferred for medium/medium-dark roasts which levers do wonderful with and I tend to get those roasts more.


It's supposed to be direct fill, just like Cremina or La Pavoni.


----------



## Rhys

PPapa said:


> It's supposed to be direct fill, just like Cremina or La Pavoni.


 That's what I heard as well.. WOnder if it will be like a spring lever La Pavoni?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

More like a better made PV export


----------



## Rhys

MediumRoastSteam said:


> More like a better made PV export


 A La Pav wrapped up in a box :classic_rolleyes: :classic_biggrin:


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Rhys said:


> A La Pav wrapped up in a box


With a spring!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

So this is what I've been thinking...

All the compact levers they are fed directly into the boiler, like the Ponte Vecchio, Elektra, Pavoni, Cremina etc - all have a small group 51mm or less, and they all overheat. They've been in the market for ages.

The mythical LC will have a 58mm group, which is great. Questions:

Why don't other other manufacturers used a 58mm group? Is there too big? If they haven't, how come Londinium can?

What's going to be the trick with the LC? Will the group overheat like the others? Will the group be independently warmed up? What's the heat up time going to be?


----------



## Norvin

MediumRoastSteam said:


> So this is what I've been thinking...
> 
> All the compact levers they are fed directly into the boiler, like the Ponte Vecchio, Elektra, Pavoni, Cremina etc - all have a small group 51mm or less, and they all overheat. They've been in the market for ages.
> 
> The mythical LC will have a 58mm group, which is great. Questions:
> 
> Why don't other other manufacturers used a 58mm group? Is there too big? If they haven't, how come Londinium can?
> 
> What's going to be the trick with the LC? Will the group overheat like the others? Will the group be independently warmed up? What's the heat up time going to be?


 It may have something to do with the size of spring needed to achieve 9-10 bar at the puck. A larger surface area will need a stronger spring, which will need a longer lever or greater strength to pull the lever, leading to problems with tipping of the machine - unless the machine is longer or heavier therefore bigger than the others? Just a thought.


----------



## PPapa

Also makes me wonder how compact will it be. The spring on LR is brutally strong and would make a small machine fly.

Damn, I can still feel a scar in my lip from 18 months ago when I got hit by it. I'm just lucky it's not visible and teeth are still there.


----------



## DDonovans

PPapa said:


> Also makes me wonder how compact will it be. The spring on LR is brutally strong and would make a small machine fly.
> 
> Damn, I can still feel a scar in my lip from 18 months ago when I got hit by it. I'm just lucky it's not visible and teeth are still there.


 The recently announced Cremina spring lever (https://www.olympia-express.ch/en/products/cremina-sl) will apparently have a spring that produces 6 bar at the puck.

It will be impressive if the LC can manage 9 bar with a larger group and a similar footprint.


----------



## Eklektik

I might be a bit out of my depths here but the 58mm group size was never a standard as it is now. Most of these old school lever machines chose a different size for their particular needs, for some of them before the E61 and 58mm gh was a thing. I'm also eyeing the Odyssey espresso OE-1 for the exact same reason as the LC - a small direct fill 58mm spring lever group.


----------



## Rhys

Old school Italian dose size is 14g for a double and 7g for a single. La Pavonis are around that dose level (15g to 16g on the post millenium maybe with 51mm group).

If the up and coming LC is going to harken back to classical Italian dosing then a smaller group is quite sufficient. A larger 58mm group would need the standard sized grouphead and the boiler to go with it. Otherwise you'll soon empty a smaller compact boiler, and the machine would also be front heavy. Then it wouldn't be a compact machine. The only things missing would be a pump and a water tap.


----------



## Mr Kirk

Is there a price for the Olympia? I'd imagine it will be twice that of the lc?


----------



## PPapa

Eklektik said:


> I might be a bit out of my depths here but the 58mm group size was never a standard as it is now. Most of these old school lever machines chose a different size for their particular needs, for some of them before the E61 and 58mm gh was a thing. I'm also eyeing the Odyssey espresso OE-1 for the exact same reason as the LC - a small direct fill 58mm spring lever group.


There was some discussion last year or so about narrower group being better as has a higher puck height and allows (?) more even extraction. I can't remember exact arguments/details to be honest.

Unless you can afford Dalla Corte Mina, there isn't much to choose from if you really dislike 58mm group.


----------



## Rhys

PPapa said:


> Unless you can afford Dalla Corte Mina, there isn't much to choose from if you really dislike 58mm group.


 Sage? :classic_rolleyes: :classic_biggrin:


----------



## Marocchino

Rhys said:


> Sage? :classic_rolleyes: :classic_biggrin:


 Will probably be better value for money 🤔


----------



## PPapa

Rhys said:


> Sage?


Give me an adjustable rotary pump, all metal/wood build, heated group, nice funnel and a tamper, VST-quality basket and I'll trade in my LR! 
That's kind of the problem, all the bling is built for 58mm group...

I kind of wish I still had my DTP when I got my EK, wonder what results would be like.


----------



## PPapa

Marocchino said:


> Will probably be better value for money


It definitely is, but that has never stopped us from being irrational.


----------



## Bacms

The mini Gaggia lever I own is a 58mm to be honest so it is not like machines on the 58mm range don't exist


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Bacms said:


> The mini Gaggia lever I own is a 58mm to be honest so it is not like machines on the 58mm range don't exist


They "did" exist.


----------



## Thecatlinux

Hey ! A compact Londinium hopes this becomes reality


----------



## MildredM

Thecatlinux said:


> Hey ! A compact Londinium hopes this becomes reality


 Hi TCL  it has been in the pipe work for some time but at last it sounds like things are finally coming together. Not too long to wait before the big reveal now, could even be around Christmas time 😁


----------



## Stevebee

MediumRoastSteam said:


> So this is what I've been thinking...
> 
> All the compact levers they are fed directly into the boiler, like the Ponte Vecchio, Elektra, Pavoni, Cremina etc - all have a small group 51mm or less, and they all overheat. They've been in the market for ages.
> 
> The mythical LC will have a 58mm group, which is great. Questions:
> 
> Why don't other other manufacturers used a 58mm group? Is there too big? If they haven't, how come Londinium can?
> 
> What's going to be the trick with the LC? Will the group overheat like the others? Will the group be independently warmed up? What's the heat up time going to be?


 The Ponte Vecchio uses a system similar to the L1 in that it is fed via a thermosiphon which circulates through the group.

Much smaller mass as the portafilter is only c44mm and therefore a smaller spring needed to create the pressure.

Helps control overheating as per L1


----------



## Thecatlinux

Here is a thought if or when then a release a new compact machine who thinks they will take the plunge ?

Just started a new thread 🧵


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

I was. But got fed up of waiting. Bought something else a couple of weeks ago.


----------



## Mr Kirk

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I was. But got fed up of waiting. Bought something else a couple of weeks ago.


Something similar or completely different?

I'm still holding out and will wait and see what it's like.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Mr Kirk said:


> Something similar or completely different?
> 
> I'm still holding out and will wait and see what it's like.


 I bought a Lelit Elizabeth. So, completely different.

Edit: note this started in 2017, where at the time they said it would be late 2018 for a release date. Suppose I'll now wait another couple of years and see how people get on. 😉


----------



## Jony

One person does know about the L. C


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Jony said:


> One person does know about the L. C


 Yep. I "think" I spoke to said one person recently. 👍 
I really think it's going to be a lovely machine. I really do. But I turned 40... And I needed a new toy! 😂🤷‍♂️


----------



## Stanic

That Cremina SL looks great!

The LC could use 54 mm, you can still get good range of accessories and also IMS competition baskets for that size.


----------



## DavecUK

Stevebee said:


> The Ponte Vecchio uses a system similar to the L1 in that it is fed via a thermosiphon which circulates through the group.
> 
> Much smaller mass as the portafilter is only c44mm and therefore a smaller spring needed to create the pressure.
> 
> Helps control overheating as per L1


 Ponte Vecchio controlled the overheating due to a large metal heat sink behind the front panel (well forming the front panel). It was in 2 parts the steel fascia and the thicker mild steel part behind. You can see the two tubes going into the boiler for the water circulation. I'm sure Coffeechap will tell you all about how the L1 does it.









It's why they didn't use a gasket between group and body, they didn't want to insulate the group from the heat sink. Wheras in an E61 there is always a gasket to prevent the group loosing heat to the front panel. The thicker the better which is why the Vesuvius one is twice as thick...although I have recently noticed other manufacturers starting to use slightly thicker ones than before. This was what kept the PV from overheating and fortunately the panel is just large enough and heavy enough that it can be left on for considerable periods without overheating. This was a crude method but used because they had no real restriction on the thermosyphon, it was just serendipity that it actually worked OK.









Photos are from a machine I reviewed and tested in 2006

The problem of course with *any lever group heated by the thermosyphon or dipper method, no matter what method they use to sink heat away or not...the group temperature and shot temp changes with boiler temperature (*or pressure if you like). Unless it's a saturated lever group or a Electrically heated PID controlled group. I have had discussions about both methods...the saturated group dual boiler concept being the most interesting. *I was hoping to get a bedstead prototype of a saturated group dual boiler lever machine to play with*...but Covid probably dealt that project a blow.


----------



## CJV8

Any update on this, or is the pipeline it's in getting extended?


----------



## coffeechap

Stanic said:


> That Cremina SL looks great!
> 
> The LC could use 54 mm, you can still get good range of accessories and also IMS competition baskets for that size.


 LC will use 58 mm portafilters, so all high end accessories will work with it.


----------



## coffeechap

CJV8 said:


> Any update on this, or is the pipeline it's in getting extended?


 Short answer yes, I believe that a prototype will be out in the wild this side of Christmas!


----------



## hysaf

I am so looking forward to it, it has been awhile since it was first mentioned to be out.


----------



## 7493

Hoping the price is going to be sensible.


----------



## coffeechap

Rob666 said:


> Hoping the price is going to be sensible.


 I believe the price is still on track for under a £1000


----------



## Rincewind

coffeechap said:


> I believe the price is still on track for under a £1000


 WOW...£1000 for a lever that is excellent...for a "quality" lever that's even better 👍


----------



## hysaf

Any new updates ?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

hysaf said:


> Any new updates ?


 There are no real updates. Only rumours. It's easy to say "it will be ready before (insert a date here)". But the fact is, it's all speculation. the last one is that a prototype would be out before Christmas. it might be out of the woods, but if it is no one has seen it neither has been widely publicised. I suppose we have 10 days for that to be the first truthful comment here.

So far, nothing said here has materialised. I was really ready to part with my money. Waited for two years... eventually gave up and bought something else. they even said COVID-19 acted as a catalyst to this project.

But we all wait and hope. it will be a great machine no doubt. But it won't be (sadly) in my bench. (Yes, I'm bitter and disappointed! 😂)


----------



## Eklektik

hysaf said:


> Any new updates ?


 "It's coming along"


----------



## cuprajake

sounds interesting,

i love the look of lever machines,


----------



## Rincewind

I think they fall into the Marmite category....you either love em or hate em.


----------



## profesor_historia

MediumRoastSteam said:


> There are no real updates. Only rumours. It's easy to say "it will be ready before (insert a date here)". But the fact is, it's all speculation. the last one is that a prototype would be out before Christmas. it might be out of the woods, but if it is no one has seen it neither has been widely publicised. I suppose we have 10 days for that to be the first truthful comment here.
> 
> So far, nothing said here has materialised. I was really ready to part with my money. Waited for two years... eventually gave up and bought something else. they even said COVID-19 acted as a catalyst to this project.
> 
> But we all wait and hope. it will be a great machine no doubt. But it won't be (sadly) in my bench. (Yes, I'm bitter and disappointed! )


You can always sell your Elizabeth and get the new one, I had in the last 10 years about 10 machines and 13 grinders .

Sent from my ALP-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## coffeechap

MediumRoastSteam said:


> There are no real updates. Only rumours. It's easy to say "it will be ready before (insert a date here)". But the fact is, it's all speculation. the last one is that a prototype would be out before Christmas. it might be out of the woods, but if it is no one has seen it neither has been widely publicised. I suppose we have 10 days for that to be the first truthful comment here.
> 
> So far, nothing said here has materialised. I was really ready to part with my money. Waited for two years... eventually gave up and bought something else. they even said COVID-19 acted as a catalyst to this project.
> 
> But we all wait and hope. it will be a great machine no doubt. But it won't be (sadly) in my bench. (Yes, I'm bitter and disappointed! 😂)


 From comments on another forum, aren't you set to buy a different lever


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Not set on anything at the moment. Both are not available yet.

Edit: for clarity: @coffeechap refers to the Vostok 1 group. Lovely machine, ACS is building it, but it's not available yet.

When there's information out there about them, feedback, reviews, etc, then I can think of getting one. Price is important too. As also mentioned in another post, I'd never buy a coffee machine without seeing one in the flesh first, or at least seeing good in-depth information and solid feedback from users, specially for something that's totally new.

edit2: footprint and overall dimensions of a future machine is very important to me. One of the things which makes the Londinium Compact still very attractive to me.

Edit 3: for transparency, the thread (and comments) made on the **************** (used to be a ACS/Vesuvius forum but has been repurposed), above referred to as "another forum".

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vesuvius/viewtopic.php?t=430


----------



## steveholt

I'm still keeping a close eye in this. If brexit doesn't kill the price point for the EU and if it delivers a decent level of performance in a compact footprint i will find this tough to resist.

The vesuvius was a great and upon reflection, very midlife crisis purchase. I ran a duo-temp pro for months during kockdown due to an electronics parts issue on the vesuvius. The machine is up again and its very nice to have a good machine on the bench again. The first few weeks back with it were reminders of the gap from 200 to 2000 quid... convenience.

If I am to ever add or change to another good machine, it will either be a relatively simple machine (my bar for that is very low, I lived with gaggia classic and gaggia ts and could solve problems on them with the aid of the Internet) or it will have local tech support (this is the huge value in BB and other conscientious vendors. You pay a fair price, but get sustainable backup service)

Is the LC looking like as simple a machine as the early L1s?


----------



## Northern_Monkey

Woke up early this morning, saw an email from Reiss with the title "Londinium - Announcement of New Systems" got super excited as I thought the new compact was now there in time for Christmas!

Then promptly realised after reading it properly that they are announcing a new customer service ticketing workflow to cope with higher volumes... 😂

He did mention the Compact though, so it does sound like they are trying to get ready for having a more "accessibly" priced machine that brings in a lot more custom.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Northern_Monkey said:


> He did mention the Compact though, so it does sound like they are trying to get ready for having a more "accessibly" priced machine that brings in a lot more custom.


 Agree. Londinium need a cheaper version now that the L R 24 is priced at £3,700 which puts it beyond the reach of most buyers.


----------



## mathof

steveholt said:


> I'm still keeping a close eye in this. If brexit doesn't kill the price point for the EU and if it delivers a decent level of performance in a compact footprint i will find this tough to resist.
> 
> &#8230;&#8230;
> 
> Is the LC looking like as simple a machine as the early L1s?


 Simpler, no hot water tap. No automatic refill. No spring. From what I've read, it seems rather like a La Pavoni with a 56mm group.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

mathof said:


> Simpler, no hot water tap. No automatic refill. No spring. From what I've read, it seems rather like a La Pavoni with a 56mm group.


 Really?how do you know this? Quite different from the original proposition then? 
58mm PF, spring lever.

if the above is true, then all of a sudden this is no longer something even worth contemplating. Not for me at least.

from the Londinium forum 24th June 2020:

https://londiniumespresso.com/blog


----------



## KTD

It's 58mm

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## coffeechap

KTD said:


> It's 58mm
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Indeed


----------



## cuprajake

Its like a conspiracy 😂

I dont get all the hidden stuff around it, surely a manufacturer would get detail out as quick as poss to hype peopl up.

Sounds like the demand is there,


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Something is working. This thread that contains diddly squat in terms of hard info is eight pages long and counting.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

coffeechap said:


> Indeed


 Spring lever?


----------



## coffeechap

The Systemic Kid said:


> Something is working. This thread that contains diddly squat in terms of hard info is eight pages long and counting.


 I am sure that when the first one actually exists, everyone one will know all the facts.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Resorting to tautology doesn't exactly advance things Dave does it?


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Spring lever?


 Possibly summer or Autumn, I would have thought Spring is a little early now for the product launch.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Spring lever?


 Penny has only just dropped. I salute you🤣


----------



## steveholt

mathof said:


> Simpler, no hot water tap. No automatic refill. No spring. From what I've read, it seems rather like a La Pavoni with a 56mm group.


 In the years this was an idea I thought it was a 58mm spring lever machine, for about a grand, due in 2018/2022.

If i could get one by July 2021 I could take it on holidays with me actually. A man can dream.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Spring lever?





The Systemic Kid said:


> Penny has only just dropped. I salute you🤣


 It wasn't intended. It was a genuine question. And yeah, unintentionally funny. I take the credit. 😊

as Dave says, correctly, best to keep off this thread and see when the first one is out. Then we will know for sure. At the moment, everything seems purely speculation. He only thing we know, after 8 pages, is that it will be a compact machine, A4 size, 58mm group and a spring lever, according to Londinium.


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> It wasn't intended. It was a genuine question. And yeah, unintentionally funny. I take the credit. ????
> 
> as Dave says, correctly, best to keep off this thread and see when the first one is out. Then we will know for sure. At the moment, everything seems purely speculation. He only thing we know, after 8 pages, is that it will be a compact machine, A4 size, 58mm group and a spring lever, according to Londinium.


 Well my last post on this subject, so we don't derail the thread completely....










"And that's all I have to say about that" :Forest Gump


----------



## mathof

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Really?how do you know this? Quite different from the original proposition then?
> 58mm PF, spring lever.
> 
> if the above is true, then all of a sudden this is no longer something even worth contemplating. Not for me at least.
> 
> from the Londinium forum 24th June 2020:
> 
> https://londiniumespresso.com/blog
> 
> View attachment 49915


 My bad! Sorry. Yes, a spring-driven piston is part of the original announcement. Brain fail!


----------



## iroko

Now on Londinium website, hoping to showcase the Vectis, maybe available by April/May.

https://londiniumespresso.com/blog/news/3419/merry-xmas


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

Really looking forward to seeing this.


----------



## KTD

Just give us a picture for crying out loud!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

That's really exciting, finally something less abstract / more concrete from Londinium. So it seems like it will be a "spring lever" after all  - at least on the seasonal sense of things. .

Not confirmed in the statement whether it will be a 58mm spring lever in the group sense of things nor the intended price, however.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

It is difficult to know who or what to believe on it but I have read sub 1k 58mm spring from people who claim to be in the know.

That would be truly excellent value if it were the case.

Can't wait to find out!


----------



## cuprajake

Cant see it, as it would totally under value thier product, they sell a wdt for close to £50😂

There other machine being 3k plus id say less than a grand would be amazing id imagine it to be more 1500 plus. But then what do i know 😂😂😂👍


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Well... there isn't a great amount of details so far. All we know is:

- the group will be made in England
- It will be a Spring Lever, 58mm group. This was Reiss on his own blog, back in June. Referenced a few posts above. At some point in the past, he also mentions the idea is that the machine is sub £1k.

CoffeeChap - presumably knows a few things about the project, alluded that the machine will be sub £1k, or at least sub £1.5k, on this post:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/56632-sell-me-your-quality-setup-to-stop-me-buying-a-mara-x-elizabeth-and-a-niche-eureka/?do=embed&comment=800565&embedComment=800565&embedDo=findComment

and also confirmed it will be a 58mm group a few posts above this one.

And that's all. So, I'm excited to see this materialising. It will definitely fill a void in the market. Will it be any good, given it's a brand new group? Who knows. If there's a prototype and it has been evaluated, it's been kept top secret.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

For me, the key is temp stability - being able to pull back to back shots. Be interesting to see how Reiss is going to manage that in a compact.


----------



## KTD

I've spoken to Reiss twice and both times he told me it would be around £1000. All I'm saying is it's very very unlikely there's not a prototype or two out in the wild.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cuprajake

I can neither confirm nor deny such things 😂😁


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Completely agree. I even it the caveat is stable for two/three shots in a row max, that will be enough for a great segment of users. And if they want better stability and other features, then the existing range of machines are the go-to options.


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

So it is a new group? Perhaps it will be electrically heated like Bezzera's domestic lever group.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

KTD said:


> I've spoken to Reiss twice and both times he told me it would be around £1000. All I'm saying is it's very very unlikely there's not a prototype or two out in the wild.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 If there are, the keepers are keeping it very quiet!


----------



## The Systemic Kid

If Reiss cracks it - good luck to him but it's a big ask at a retail price of £1k



MediumRoastSteam said:


> If there are, the keepers are keeping it very quiet!


 probably undergoing rigorous testing somewhere in Wiltshire


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

BlackCatCoffee said:


> So it is a new group? Perhaps it will be electrically heated like Bezzera's domestic lever group.


 Hats what it's been mentioned in the blog: https://londiniumespresso.com/blog/news/3419/merry-xmas



> in Jan 2021 we also hope to showcase the Vectis, our entry level machine with an all new lever group that has been designed in England, and will also be forged in England
> 
> please note however that it will take around 16 weeks to get the machine tooling made, so dont expect it to be available for purchase until April/May


----------



## Northern_Monkey

MediumRoastSteam said:


> is that it will be a compact machine, A4 size, 58mm group and a spring lever, according to Londinium.


 I am getting a bit intrigued now, especially at the force needed to compress the spring enough for a 58mm basket at say 6-9 bar?

Sure the Profitecs, Londiniums and other bigger levers are almost 0.5m deep to stop them tipping over. Just want to see a pic or video of the prototype now and whether you have to brace it yourself like the smaller Pavonis at 9bar...

Jan is too far away, especially as I'm in Tier 4 without the regular X-mas distractions from seeing everyone back home 😅


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Northern_Monkey said:


> Jan is too far away


 Are you serious? This thread is from June 2017! 🤣😂👍



Northern_Monkey said:


> I am getting a bit intrigued now, especially at the force needed to compress the spring enough for a 58mm basket at say 6-9 bar


 Well... there are micro Cimballi and Ponte Vecchio and Elektra machines which are spring levers too.

It would be great to see a photo of one at least, or at least a photo of a CAD design or something and a concrete list of the specs of the machine.


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Well... there are micro Cimballi and Ponte Vecchio and Elektra machines which are spring levers too.


 I think it will be something along the line of these models. I note in one of the blog posts it says 'direct fill' so I assume you will be pouring water directly in to the boiler rather than a manual fill tank driven machine. I guess there will be no pump involved at all.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

At the rate this speculation is going, we'll have a working prototype up and running before LC's debut🤣


----------



## Rincewind

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If there are, the keepers are *keeping it very quiet*!


 NDA ??? ....it's what i'd do.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Rumpelstiltskin said:


> NDA ??? ....it's what i'd do.


 And therefore, we have rumours! 😂


----------



## KTD

Having considered how they would keep it thermally stable I could only come up with it being tank fed in the way that the gaggia achille was, it was an imperfect machine with a variety of issues when I had it but it was very capable. The technology required to stabilise the group and keep at temperature may be a step to far for a £1000 machine though

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AliG

BlackCatCoffee said:


> I think it will be something along the line of these models. I note in one of the blog posts it says 'direct fill' so I assume you will be pouring water directly in to the boiler rather than a manual fill tank driven machine. I guess there will be no pump involved at all.


 What does that mean? Something like the Gaggia Mini - an open boiler with a spring loaded group attached?


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

I think perhaps it might be. I stumbled across this quote that was said to be lifted from a now deleted Londinium blog post -

"think of the little la pavoni, olympia cremina, ponte vecchio or the elektra mica casa e leva

that is the class of machine the LC will be in"


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

BlackCatCoffee said:


> I think perhaps it might be. I stumbled across this quote that was said to be lifted from a now deleted Londinium blog post -
> 
> "think of the little la pavoni, olympia cremina, ponte vecchio or the elektra mica casa e leva
> 
> that is the class of machine the LC will be in"


 I remember that post. Not deleted either...

https://forum.londiniumespresso.com/discussion/806/londinium-c


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I remember that post. Not deleted either...
> 
> https://forum.londiniumespresso.com/discussion/806/londinium-c


 Ahh good spot. The link that I clicked on where I took that from was duff.

That thread answers most of things I was curious about.


----------



## coffeechap

The Systemic Kid said:


> If Reiss cracks it - good luck to him but it's a big ask at a retail price of £1k
> 
> probably undergoing rigorous testing somewhere in Wiltshire


 Where? Would love to see it


----------



## The Systemic Kid

coffeechap said:


> Where? Would love to see it


 You're such a tease😀


----------



## coffeechap

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Well... there isn't a great amount of details so far. All we know is:
> 
> - the group will be made in England
> - It will be a Spring Lever, 58mm group. This was Reiss on his own blog, back in June. Referenced a few posts above. At some point in the past, he also mentions the idea is that the machine is sub £1k.
> 
> CoffeeChap - presumably knows a few things about the project, alluded that the machine will be sub £1k, or at least sub £1.5k, on this post:
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/56632-sell-me-your-quality-setup-to-stop-me-buying-a-mara-x-elizabeth-and-a-niche-eureka/?do=embed&comment=800565&embedComment=800565&embedDo=findComment
> 
> and also confirmed it will be a 58mm group a few posts above this one.
> 
> And that's all. So, I'm excited to see this materialising. It will definitely fill a void in the market. Will it be any good, given it's a brand new group? Who knows. If there's a prototype and it has been evaluated, it's been kept top secret.


 Not only the group but pretty much the whole machine will be made in England


----------



## davril

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Well... there isn't a great amount of details so far. All we know is:
> 
> - the group will be made in England
> - It will be a Spring Lever, 58mm group. This was Reiss on his own blog, back in June. Referenced a few posts above. At some point in the past, he also mentions the idea is that the machine is sub £1k.


 Add to that -



Steam wand only no water outlet


User directly adds water to the boiler


No pump


Dipper style


Pre infusion from boiler pressure


Along the lines of the little La Pavoni


That is all according to Reiss himself. Now the price point makes a lot more sense.


----------



## Rincewind

mmmm an English Pavoni....i hope he sticks a Lion on the top of it instead of an Eagle. 👍

and when the Chinese decide to copy it they'll no doubt make a botch job of it and their version will have a Griffin (Lion/Eagle-combo) slapped on top :classic_wink:


----------



## Eklektik

I'm holding off since the summer from buying a new machine because this was for "around Christmas" and now it will be May. I keep needing to remind myself that this thread is from 2017 for a reason. Disappointing once again.


----------



## cuprajake

But think how much you have saved long run lol


----------



## DavecUK




----------



## coffeechap

DavecUK said:


> View attachment 50053


 Are you not a fervent supporter of British made


----------



## Kman10

I think it's great that it's going to be British made. As long as the quality control is there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

Kman10 said:


> I think it's great that it's going to be British made. As long as the quality control is there.


 Always good to buy British where we can. Presumably Fracino are making it, so there is no reason why it can't be made to the same quality standards as the existing Londinium machines. Quality nowadays is less about where it's made, and more about the company making it and the specifications they are asked to manufacture it to.


----------



## Thecatlinux

Still waiting in anticipation


----------



## steveholt

If there are references to Machining, I am hoping we are truly close.

If it hits the 1k price window, what machines are its true competition, and on what fronts?


----------



## 4085

I think it would be nice to be able to put a lot of these rumours to bed, by someone announcing the current state of play. There is a lot of info that has not been confirmed. I would love to know, for example, that apart from group size, what differentiates the LC from say a normal La Pavoni sort of machine. Since there is a lot of interested parties here on the forum including a long list of potential owners, then surely it would be in the interest of Londinium to provide an update to the list of potential owners, whether using this forum or through their own media channels.


----------



## steveholt

I think Spring Lever and 58mm Group are confirmed by Reiss to a number of people 👍

After that, I think it is guessing 🤣


----------



## KTD

I thought they may go after the Pavoni market who want a cremina but can't afford one so direct syphon style lever. A pavoni with better insulation and a grouphead that is connected to boiler but with some kind of thermal block to stop it over heating. They may even have a separate water tank like the achille, again to get round overheating. I'm not expecting too much as It can't be perfect, if it was who's going to pay them £3700 for an r24


----------



## cuprajake

Agree. They cant make it toi good or no one will buy the big boy,

When ypu think the l1 started out at £1500 its jumped up a hell of alot,

They put on fb that there going to be using stainless for boilers as brass is too expensive


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

Having had a good look through the Londinium forum post linked here Reiss himself has actually confirmed a lot about the machine. It'll be along the lines of a La Pavoni but with a 58mm spring group I guess.

Really the final bit of the puzzle is how will it look ie traditional La Pavoni style or more like a Cremina. Plus of course the price point which I am given to understand will be around 1k but I am assuming that is ex VAT as the other Londinium models prices are displayed that way.

I was super sceptical of the price point but I think I had totally misunderstood what the LC was going to be.

Looking forward to the big reveal.


----------



## kennyboy993

Is there a way to formally register interest in this machine anyone know?


----------



## Drewster

kennyboy993 said:


> Is there a way to formally register interest in this machine anyone know?


 I think you just send a letter to Santa...... and wait.


----------



## kennyboy993

That's never worked for me in the past


----------



## Drewster

kennyboy993 said:


> That's never worked for me in the past


 Quite!


----------



## 4085

kennyboy993 said:


> That's never worked for me in the past


 Try putting a stamp on instead of on the fire and up the chimney!


----------



## kennyboy993

I'll try that. He's not getting his mince pie this year if I don't get one


----------



## steveholt

steveholt said:


> I think Spring Lever and 58mm Group are confirmed by Reiss to a number of people 👍
> 
> After that, I think it is guessing 🤣


 A4 Footprint and Stainless Steel Boiler seem to be confirmed and suggested respectively by Reiss.


----------



## TRatcliffe

I dont think anyone's mentioned it yet, from the blog:

'in Jan 2021 we also hope to showcase the Vectis, our entry level machine with an all new lever group that has been designed in England, and will also be forged in England

please note however that it will take around 16 weeks to get the machine tooling made, so dont expect it to be available for purchase until April/May'

its called Vectis, and if he's planning on showcasing it this month he's got about 15 hours 😅


----------



## cuprajake

Images have been released have you not seen?


----------



## Marocchino

TRatcliffe said:


> its called Vectis


 Didn't realise until this morning that Vectis is Latin for lever as well as being the Roman name for the Isle of Wight.


----------



## TRatcliffe

Does that mean it's going to be shaped like the Isle of Wight?!? Exciting news if true...


----------



## coffeechap

Good to see it's a stainless steel boiler, up there with all the other top manufacturers. Can't wait to see it in the flesh, especially as it is a completely new group designed, engineered and made in Britain. Pretty unique


----------



## TRatcliffe

Cuprajake said:


> Images have been released have you not seen?


 Take my money.


----------



## cuprajake

@coffeechap on his Facebook post he mentioned ss is now cheaper than copper for production.


----------



## 4085

Cuprajake said:


> @coffeechap on his Facebook post he mentioned ss is now cheaper than copper for production.


 That would explain why it is being used then


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

If they want to keep the cost down sub £1k, makes sense to me. Every little helps. All good to say stainless steel, but what grade of SS will it be? That's what I really want to know. For reference, the ACS minima, has 316L grade, whatever that means.

edit: 316 grade is the marine grade. 304 is the most common grade.

https://continentalsteel.com/stainless-steel/grades/


----------



## 4085

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If they want to keep the cost down sub £1k, makes sense to me. Every little helps. All good to say stainless steel, but what grade of SS will it be? That's what I really want to know. For reference, the ACS minima, has 316L grade, whatever that means.
> 
> edit: 316 grade is the marine grade. 304 is the most common grade.
> 
> https://continentalsteel.com/stainless-steel/grades/


 Call me a cynic.....there is absolutely no chance of this being £1000 plus vat


----------



## cuprajake

Agree be about 1500 again haha


----------



## kennyboy993

Could easily be end of the year at the earliest also.


----------



## 4085

Seems odd when launching a product, that little hard information comes out......just teasers and the like.......seems as if Londinium may not be in control of this project as I cannot believe any company would actually plan a launch along these lines


----------



## cuprajake

Perhaps he had stuff in the pipeline then covid and brexit cocked it up,

I think if its been pushed back the little teasers keeps those on the fence hanging on,

I know if this had been just round the corner i may have held off on the minima, as i want a lever, as its an itch id like to scratch at some point in life


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

dfk41 said:


> Call me a cynic.....there is absolutely no chance of this being £1000 plus vat


 cynic. 😂 - I'm just reporting the little facts/rumours we have. I.e.: It's going to be 58m.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/56632-sell-me-your-quality-setup-to-stop-me-buying-a-mara-x-elizabeth-and-a-niche-eureka/?do=embed&comment=800565&embedComment=800565&embedDo=findComment

Londinium:



> our commercial need is to have a product that retails around the £1000 mark, all in (the L1 is about £2000 all in and the L1-P about £3000)


 https://forum.londiniumespresso.com/discussion/430/londinium-small-light-compact-spring-lever

Only rumours anyway, and nothing really matters until it's out.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake said:


> Perhaps he had stuff in the pipeline then covid and brexit cocked it up,


 Nope. Quite the contrary:

in addition we are hard at work on the LONDINIUM Compact, a direct fill 58mm spring lever group, which i am very conscious is turning into something of a mythical beast as the delivery date has slipped and slipped as we struggled to obtain development resources, but COVID has given us a window of opportunity to crack on

https://londiniumespresso.com/blog/news/3414/understanding-the-londinium-range


----------



## The Systemic Kid

That was four years ago.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

MediumRoastSteam said:


> cynic. 😂 - I'm just reporting the little facts/rumours we have. I.e.: It's going to be 58m.
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/56632-sell-me-your-quality-setup-to-stop-me-buying-a-mara-x-elizabeth-and-a-niche-eureka/?do=embed&comment=800565&embedComment=800565&embedDo=findComment
> 
> Londinium:
> 
> https://forum.londiniumespresso.com/discussion/430/londinium-small-light-compact-spring-lever
> 
> Only rumours anyway, and nothing really matters until it's out.


 That was four years ago.


----------



## DavecUK

The Systemic Kid said:


> That was four years ago.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

As previously said - it's all conjecture until the Compact/Vectis is released - then we will see what the price is.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

The Systemic Kid said:


> That was four years ago.


 Appreciate it. However the referenced post in this forum is quite fresh, from this year, assuming "you may well be surprised them" comment was in reference to the prospective price of the Vectis which I think it was.


----------



## coffeechap

dfk41 said:


> That would explain why it is being used then


 But it has long been know. On here that stainless is more expensive!! How strange


----------



## coffeechap

dfk41 said:


> Seems odd when launching a product, that little hard information comes out......just teasers and the like.......seems as if Londinium may not be in control of this project as I cannot believe any company would actually plan a launch along these lines


 Ha ha decent did and niche was a long time in the making, let's hope it lives up to the expectation


----------



## coffeechap

Cuprajake said:


> @coffeechap on his Facebook post he mentioned ss is now cheaper than copper for production.


 No way


----------



## cuprajake

@coffeechap ill totally fall into your trap ????


----------



## coffeechap

Cuprajake said:


> @coffeechap ill totally fall into your trap ????
> 
> View attachment 52196
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cuprajake said:
> 
> 
> 
> @coffeechap ill totally fall into your trap ????
> 
> View attachment 52196
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, I feel as though I have information cheated, perhaps it's just a recent thing that stainless is less than copper? Anyway if what the experts say is to be believed, stainless will be so much h better, so a good choice from londinium then?
Click to expand...


----------



## coffeechap

The Systemic Kid said:


> As previously said - it's all conjecture until the Compact/Vectis is released - then we will see what the price is.


 Would be stunned if it is not around the £1000 mark


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

I don't see stainless steel being a problem, I can't see what the fuss is all about? A lot of machines are like so, if it keeps the cost down... Why not? In fact, the Elizabeth has a copper boiler and an SS boiler. Best of both worlds, so no one can argue 😂.

As from the very start, I truly would like to see this machine out int the wild. Yes, I wanted to buy one but it never materialised. I'm not a fan on how this has been done, hate the rumours, hate the lack of information, hate how it's being launched. But nonetheless, I'd be excited to see it through, just a shame it was too late for me to consider it.

Next upgrade perhaps... But let's see the general release out there first.


----------



## 4085

coffeechap said:


> Ha ha decent did and niche was a long time in the making, let's hope it lives up to the expectation


 I do not think either took 4 years from the point they made the announcement. Did not really follow Decent. Niche took several years in planning, but so what as no one knew. From announcement that the grinder was in beta testing to production was less than 12 months.....which in fairness, is a long time, but not as long as 4 years


----------



## DavecUK

dfk41 said:


> I do not think either took 4 years from the point they made the announcement. Did not really follow Decent. Niche took several years in planning, but so what as no one knew. From announcement that the grinder was in beta testing to production was less than 12 months.....which in fairness, is a long time, but not as long as 4 years


 With Niche it was well tested by someone independent from the company for 7 months prior to pre production machines (made on production tooling) tested for 5 months. I'd guess there must be a pre production Vectis being extensively tested somewhere.

No doubt we will find out in the fullness of time.


----------



## coffeechap

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I don't see stainless steel being a problem, I can't see what the fuss is all about? A lot of machines are like so, if it keeps the cost down... Why not? In fact, the Elizabeth has a copper boiler and an SS boiler. Best of both worlds, so no one can argue 😂.
> 
> As from the very start, I truly would like to see this machine out int the wild. Yes, I wanted to buy one but it never materialised. I'm not a fan on how this has been done, hate the rumours, hate the lack of information, hate how it's being launched. But nonetheless, I'd be excited to see it through, just a shame it was too late for me to consider it.
> 
> Next upgrade perhaps... But let's see the general release out there first.


 I think you miss understand, stainless is surely not a problem at all, as I said before it has been heralded on this forum as far superior to copper in boilers, so a very good move from Reiss.

I completely agree about the delays and how disappointing this is, I guess that's one of the issues with not being the manufacturer, as you are always at the mercy of what is most important to them and if a huge multi million pound clients demands then the little client has to wait.


----------



## coffeechap

DavecUK said:


> I'd guess there must be a pre production Vectis being extensively tested somewhere.
> 
> No doubt we will find out in the fullness of time.


 Id live to know where it is if there is one, am looking forward to buying one myself once they are available


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

coffeechap said:


> I think you miss understand, stainless is surely not a problem at all, as I said before it has been heralded on this forum as far superior to copper in boilers


 I do get that. 🙂 - As you say, a lot of the top-end prosumer machines have stainless steel boilers. But as Reiss himself says on the FB group, it it's *also* cheaper than lead free copper boilers, that's not a problem at all. 👍


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

I am sure Reiss has sad Fracino are doing the development and as they are a small company they have been bumped down the order several times by the likes of Nestle and Subway that have far deeper pockets.

I wish them every success with it and I applaud them for manufacturing in the UK.

I was very sceptical about the price being sub £1k (although I suspect this will be ex VAT) but I had totally misunderstood what this machine was going to be. I thought it was literally going to be a compact Londinium (hence the name) but having looked through the forum posts it is going be a very different proposition in many ways.

I am very excited to see it still.


----------



## 4085

The thing I genuinely do not get, is the suggestion that Made in England and Fracino suggest quality. If that is the case, why do Fracino sell machines aimed at catering establishments on the whole and why have they not managed to corner the quality niche market that exists in the UK.......


----------



## coffeechap

dfk41 said:


> The thing I genuinely do not get, is the suggestion that Made in England and Fracino suggest quality. If that is the case, why do Fracino sell machines aimed at catering establishments on the whole and why have they not managed to corner the quality niche market that exists in the UK.......


 Are you suggesting londinium products are not quality? Fracino go where the money is and out sell most of the big manufacturers in terms of commercial supply. They have always been commercial focussed yet still maintain a prosumer presence.

I think their build quality had come a long way since the early days of heavenly's and there knowledge of machine production and development is bloody good.

I also know first hand of their enthusiastic approach to producing new innovative products such as the new group on this machine.

I do genuinely hope that this sees the light of day soon though as every set back and delay is just more food for the haters.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


> If that is the case, why do Fracino sell machines aimed at catering establishments on the whole ....


 Guess that's their business model and where they focus their energies.



dfk41 said:


> and why have they not managed to corner the quality niche market that exists in the UK.......


 possibly they feel it's not worth the effort which is why they are happy to cede some of their workflow capacity to Londinium.


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

Fracino's commercial machines are simple, reliable and well built. They aren't cutting edge by any means but compared to machines from other manufacturers at similar price points they are very competitive indeed.

They do offer the Romano PID that has independently controlled group boilers, preinfusion and a number of fancy features but they do not currently offer anything that rivals the likes of the VA Eagle One etc.

It is a bit of a shame but they sell a lot of machines from what I understand.


----------



## 4085

coffeechap said:


> Are you suggesting londinium products are not quality? Fracino go where the money is and out sell most of the big manufacturers in terms of commercial supply. They have always been commercial focussed yet still maintain a prosumer presence.
> 
> I think their build quality had come a long way since the early days of heavenly's and there knowledge of machine production and development is bloody good.
> 
> I also know first hand of their enthusiastic approach to producing new innovative products such as the new group on this machine.
> 
> I do genuinely hope that this sees the light of day soon though as every set back and delay is just more food for the haters.


 I am suggesting, Londinium are built by Fracino, a company who appeal more to the mass market, especially overseas than to the quality market. Am I a hater. I own a Londinium and was the first person on the forum to actually buy one in 2012. Of course, you are suggesting the build quality in the early days was a bit naff and I would wholeheartedly agree since the first Luxe machine I owned had to be returned as it leaked like a sieve from virtually every joint......but let us all hope that the new machine has indeed benefitted from advancements


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

So...

at Christmas there was an announcement that the Vectis would be showcased in January. We are now in March and there's been nothing. On the same blog post, says that machines will be available in April/May - truly a "spring lever" in every sense. Or will it?

https://londiniumespresso.com/blog/news/3419/merry-xmas


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator

I took a punt and asked through the website.

Reiss replied very quickly and said second half of this year, currently at the tool maker getting dies made for forging the group.

Looking forward to seeing what this ends up looking like/ feature set.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> I took a punt and asked through the website.
> 
> Reiss replied very quickly and said second half of this year, currently at the tool maker getting dies made for forging the group.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing what this ends up looking like/ feature set.


 👍 - Southern Hemisphere Spring lever then. 🤞


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator

@MediumRoastSteam Indeed. Fascinated by what will be on offer (read all the potentials, but nothing like seeing it in black and white) given the proposed price.

I want to do some more reading on different spring groups/ configurations, but not sure where to look - any recommendations welcomed.


----------



## 4085

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> I took a punt and asked through the website.
> 
> Reiss replied very quickly and said second half of this year, currently at the tool maker getting dies made for forging the group.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing what this ends up looking like/ feature set.


 Ah, another delay! Perhaps my expectations are unreal, but I thought when you instructed a company to develop a machine on your behalf they actually gave you a time table that you would expect them to stick to. That in turn, allows you to plan your release with testing, marketing etc. Anyone fancy opening a book on when this actually appears? We could start off guessing the year, then narrow it down to the quartile, just for fun of course.

Not looking to hijack the thread of course, but I have high hopes my ACS Vostok might appear within the next 4 weeks


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator

Do Londinium not develop/ build their machines in house?

You'd hope if the manufacturing prep is all underway then it won't be far off. You don't want to be laying out for too long before you start getting some revenue in surely?

I have been lusting after the Vostok, although way out of my budget - and to be honest I couldn't help but be disappointed when I saw it wouldn't be the same case style as the two group.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Logistically, it must be difficult for Reiss who is based in New Zealand and the Londinium manufacturing base which is in Birmingham (Fracino). Pandemic can only have complicated matters. Also, Londinium is a very small part of Fracino's overall manufacturing output which is mainly commercial. So I am guessing, the LC project gets shunted down the priority list hence the delay.

Let's hope the Compact arrives sometime soon. If as is mentioned above, the group his designed and manufactured in house - that's a quite a shift from the parts that go into the Londinium which are, in terms of the group, bought in and add to the challenges of getting the Compact to the market.


----------



## 4085

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> Do Londinium not develop/ build their machines in house?


 Hiya matey, Londinium is the idea of Reiss Gunson who is a native of New Zealand but used to live in the UK until recently, when he went back to NZ. He comes up with the design and then Fracino, that well known British coffee equipment manufacturer based in Birmingham build it for him. I might be wrong but I think they are doing to R & D on this machine, which is why I find it peculiar that there is not a fixed timetable in place. This project has been mooted since 3rd quarter of 2017! So, Londinium are not a manufacturing company so there is no 'in house' to speak of.

I hope that this little lever does come out this year as there is definitely the need for something of this size coming in at under a grand, with new technology. I wonder what the all new group offers that is new to the market, but you could write what I understand about the inner workings on the back of a stamp so we will wit and see!

The Vostok one group could not use a scaled down 2 group case as being a professional fully commercial dual spring lever, the extra grunt required to pull the professional spring set yp made the machine tip. @Davecuk in collaboration with Paolo at ACS re-thought the problem through and Dave reckoned that by utilising the Vesuvius case with a few mods, the tipping problem would be solved.....and in the space of just a few short months


----------



## SupraMan

Good things come to those who wait.
Better to do a proper job and put out a machine that works rather that use customers as beta testers like other companies seem to do.


----------



## DavecUK

SupraMan said:


> Good things come to those who wait.
> Better to do a proper job and put out a machine that works rather that use customers as beta testers like other companies seem to do.


 I think @dfk41 felt like a beta tester with his glass sided Londinium...remember that David 😉


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

SupraMan said:


> Good things come to those who wait.
> Better to do a proper job and put out a machine that works rather that use customers as beta testers like other companies seem to do.


 I'm not questioning the machine. I do question Londinium's project management skills though. There's no point saying 4 years ago that a machine would be launched in the next 24 months. And here we are, 96 (correction: 44 - thanks @profesor_historia) months later and yet completely in the dark. Might as well have said nothing and, when the tooling is ready, say that the machine will be released in X months.


----------



## Marocchino

MediumRoastSteam said:


> There's no point saying 4 years ago that a machine would be launched in the next 24 months. And here we are, 96 months later and yet completely in the dark.


 ..... but it still appears to be a talking point, so it could be argued - something is working 🤔


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Marocchino said:


> ..... but it still appears to be a talking point, so it could be argued - something is working 🤔


 I totally agree! Maybe it works for some people (to "dangle a carrot" as they say)... Doesn't do it for me.


----------



## 4085

SupraMan said:


> Good things come to those who wait.
> Better to do a proper job and put out a machine that works rather that use customers as beta testers like other companies seem to do.


 are you referring to Londinium by chance?


----------



## 4085

Marocchino said:


> ..... but it still appears to be a talking point, so it could be argued - something is working 🤔


 wheels are certainly turning......just not in the right area.....lol


----------



## Northern_Monkey

DavecUK said:


> I think @dfk41 felt like a beta tester with his glass sided Londinium...remember that David 😉


 Must have made spotting leaks or component issues a bit easier! 😂


----------



## DavecUK

Northern_Monkey said:


> Must have made spotting leaks or component issues a bit easier! 😂


 I think David made a video, admittedly the quality was crap (of the video), but I could still spot the odd leak.


----------



## 4085

I took the sides off..........


----------



## profesor_historia

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I'm not questioning the machine. I do question Londinium's project management skills though. There's no point saying 4 years ago that a machine would be launched in the next 24 months. And here we are, 96 months later and yet completely in the dark. Might as well have said nothing and, when the tooling is ready, say that the machine will be released in X months.


96 months is 8 years I think, did they announce it in 2013?


----------



## The Systemic Kid

profesor_historia said:


> 96 months is 8 years I think, did they announce it in 2013?


 Seems more like 1913😀 They do say deferred gratification is good for you.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

profesor_historia said:


> MediumRoastSteam said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not questioning the machine. I do question Londinium's project management skills though. There's no point saying 4 years ago that a machine would be launched in the next 24 months. And here we are, 96 months later and yet completely in the dark. Might as well have said nothing and, when the tooling is ready, say that the machine will be released in X months.
> 
> 
> 
> 96 months is 8 years I think, did they announce it in 2013?
Click to expand...

 Damn. You are right! That's what it feels like. Should've been 44 months going by the OP on this thread.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator

@dfk41 Thank you for that explanation - really helpful.

Maybe Fracino might see the market demand and decide on a prosumer version of the Retro. A very nice looking machine. A bit like the Izzo Alex Leva, would be great to see a tank/ pumped version. Which might not be such a 'pigs might fly idea'?

I have also enjoyed reading the Vostok thread on the 'other' forum, which was/ is very interesting. I totally get the design / practicalities that led to the decision. Heart over head and all that. It is still a good looking machine, but the 2+group is a work of art.

Back to the Vectis....

Can/ should we expect to see 'technology' in such a keenly priced machine? I was kind of expecting Londinium's version of a Pavoni (or should that be PV Export/ Lusso given they're all springs?) given the price point.

@MediumRoastSteam @Marocchino I agree with both of you - How many people over that 4yr period have bought something because it just took too long? Keeping people guessing and keen can be very good marketing, but surely there comes a point when people just think this won't be worth the wait - a la Avatar.

Or maybe it will blow our minds.... (but then they wouldn't do that because they cannibalise their more expensive machines)


----------



## Marocchino

dfk41 said:


> I took the sides off.........


 Wow - I can only begin to imagine how disappointing having those leaks on a new machine must have been. It reminds me of one of my central heating boilers. Were you an early adopter by any chance?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> but surely there comes a point when people just think this won't be worth the wait


 That was me. I waited 3 years for it to materialise. Eventually I moved on with my life and bought something else.


----------



## John Yossarian

> 59 minutes ago, dfk41 said:
> 
> I took the sides off..........


 Besides the disappointment, this has been a real safety hazard


----------



## Marocchino

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> Keeping people guessing and keen can be very good marketing


 Noticed the post count on this topic showing 310 since June 2017. Not that much when you consider the New G-Iota DF64/Solo(?) etc. thread has posted 575 since Feb this year. Granted there is actually a product in existence in the case of the G-Iota.


----------



## 4085

Marocchino said:


> Wow - I can only begin to imagine how disappointing having those leaks on a new machine must have been. It reminds me of one of my central heating boilers. Were you an early adopter by any chance?


 Early adopter.....sort of......I think, looking backwards and not meaning to sound negative, the Luxe version I bought had not really been thought through. The glass panels mean the internals are on display. The internals were beautifully presented with all pipes and boiler having a lacquer or something similar coating them. The problem was this meant that the nuts could not be nipped up properly without damaging them, hence the leaks. In the early days, there was a long waiting list. Not down to popularity so much as down to the amount of production time that was available to Londinium from Fracino. I think I can lay claim to being the first person on the forum to buy one. I know an ex member procured a test machine for services rendered


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator

Marocchino said:


> Noticed the post count on this topic showing 310 since June 2017. Not that much when you consider the New G-Iota DF64/Solo(?) etc. thread has posted 575 since Feb this year. Granted there is actually a product in existence in the case of the G-Iota.


 Perhaps if they'd put a few pictures out of what it was going to look like that would've created the marmite fuelling post count... 🤣


----------



## The Systemic Kid

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> Perhaps if they'd put a few pictures out of what it was going to look like that would've created the marmite fuelling post count... ????


 Maybe Reiss will at some stage - hopefully in the non too distant future. Until then it's a bit








or​







​
​


----------



## Marocchino

dfk41 said:


> Early adopter.....sort of......I think, looking backwards and not meaning to sound negative, the Luxe version I bought had not really been thought through.


 There's a double edged sword quality about being a potential early adopter. On the one side, having a product that is new, innovative, interesting and a new challenge and the other side being a participant in the real world testing of that product. The former bringing the excitement and novelty value that a new thingamabob can bring, the latter being the unwitting test bed for ironing out issues that hadn't presented themselves before production. 
@The Systemic Kid mentioned deferred gratification in an earlier post - something I'm working on. 😀


----------



## haventadog

dfk41 said:


> are you referring to Londinium by chance?


 What year did you buy your Londinium?


----------



## 4085

Anyway, let us all hope that there is some positive news coming up in the near future.......


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> A bit like the Izzo Alex Leva, would be great to see a tank/ pumped version.


 It is in development along with some other exciting stuff 👍


----------



## Marocchino

BlackCatCoffee said:


> along with some other exciting stuff 👍


 Do tell! 🤔😀


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

Marocchino said:


> Do tell! 🤔😀


 No idea what will actually make it to market. It'll be great to wait and see though!


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator

BlackCatCoffee said:


> It is in development along with some other exciting stuff 👍


 I wasn't sure whether to state that explicitly, so glad you have!

Izzo have said they are developing a tanked/ pumped version with a smaller boiler... Timescales totally unknown


----------



## TRatcliffe

I feel like it's taking so long that he might end up being pipped to the post by big competitors that do everything in house. The coffee shops being closed has caused a boom in home espresso as a hobby, companies will surely want to capitalise.

I feel like there's a market for a Cremina that doesn't cost a million pounds. Or should I say I want something like a cremina for under a grand. I don't want to wait forever though.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

TRatcliffe said:


> I feel like there's a market for a Cremina that doesn't cost a million pounds. Or should I say I want something like a cremina for under a grand.


 That's a La Pavoni. 😊 - the Vectis apparently will have a 58mm group and a spring lever. The Cremina is a direct lever.


----------



## 4085

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That's a La Pavoni. 😊 - the Vectis apparently will have a 58mm group and a spring lever. The Cremina is a direct lever.


 No its not!

https://www.olympia-express.ch/en/products/cremina-sl

Or should I say, available as a sprung lever or not


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That's a La Pavoni. 😊 - the Vectis apparently will have a 58mm group and a spring lever. The Cremina is a direct lever.


 Cremina SL is sprung.

Is there any reading on the different spring powers needed depending on PF size to deliver the necessary pressure? I'm not clever enough to do the maths.


----------



## TRatcliffe

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That's a La Pavoni. 😊 - the Vectis apparently will have a 58mm group and a spring lever. The Cremina is a direct lever.


 Yeah yeah I get that, I meant more the form factor, not melting my kids if they touch it, being able to make more than 2 drinks, being temperature stable. I love the look of the Elektra leva but I just can't get my head around spending that on a brand new antique with all its quirks. How hard can it be? Or has no manufacturer really tried before? I mean la pavoni and elektra haven't tried much since the Beatles. Is it just Laziness marketed as 'iconic design'?


----------



## 4085

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> Cremina SL is sprung.
> 
> Is there any reading on the different spring powers needed depending on PF size to deliver the necessary pressure? I'm not clever enough to do the maths.


 Well, this is a very interesting topic matey! You can tune a spring in a few ways which means that you can match your perception of the required pressure to suit yourself. Something I cannot quite follow, is virtually all commercial machines opt for a dual spring, yet Bosco and Londinium who share the same, cheaper Fiorenzato group opt for a single spring. It certainly takes more grunt to pull a dual spring so maybe it is just down to physics meaning the smaller bodied one groups would tip. The Alex does not but it is a monster of a machine. I can remember one commentator informing us that they had fitted two springs to a certain machine (L1) and the result was that the strength of the spring was too great for the SO beans used and the shot was destroyed. A few years on and that argument seems a little suspect to me for a number of reasons.....but, back on track......the LC should be able to have a spring that the R&D team recommend after no doubt, thoroughly testing this aspect


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@dfk41 @TRatcliffe @PortafilterProcrastinator - I stand corrected! Wasn't aware of a spring lever cremina. 👍 - most of the ones out there are direct lever it seems.


----------



## TRatcliffe

dfk41 said:


> Well, this is a very interesting topic matey! You can tune a spring in a few ways which means that you can match your perception of the required pressure to suit yourself. Something I cannot quite follow, is virtually all commercial machines opt for a dual spring, yet Bosco and Londinium who share the same, cheaper Fiorenzato group opt for a single spring. It certainly takes more grunt to pull a dual spring so maybe it is just down to physics meaning the smaller bodied one groups would tip. The Alex does not but it is a monster of a machine. I can remember one commentator informing us that they had fitted two springs to a certain machine (L1) and the result was that the strength of the spring was too great for the SO beans used and the shot was destroyed. A few years on and that argument seems a little suspect to me for a number of reasons.....but, back on track......the LC should be able to have a spring that the R&D team recommend after no doubt, thoroughly testing this aspect


 Too many variables for me to even bother to try and get my head around.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator

dfk41 said:


> Well, this is a very interesting topic matey! You can tune a spring in a few ways which means that you can match your perception of the required pressure to suit yourself. Something I cannot quite follow, is virtually all commercial machines opt for a dual spring, yet Bosco and Londinium who share the same, cheaper Fiorenzato group opt for a single spring. It certainly takes more grunt to pull a dual spring so maybe it is just down to physics meaning the smaller bodied one groups would tip. The Alex does not but it is a monster of a machine. I can remember one commentator informing us that they had fitted two springs to a certain machine (L1) and the result was that the strength of the spring was too great for the SO beans used and the shot was destroyed. A few years on and that argument seems a little suspect to me for a number of reasons.....but, back on track......the LC should be able to have a spring that the R&D team recommend after no doubt, thoroughly testing this aspect


 This is why I start scratching my head.

If pulling the lever to compress the spring is storing the energy to be applied to the water/ puck then the amount of force required to pull the lever must correlate to that force - with the pressure affected by PF size/ grind size etc etc

The force applied by the spring reduces as it extends.

I have no doubt that very clever people have done all the very clever maths to get the result they want, but given the range of sizes in lever machines and spring configurations I'd be fascinated to see a detailed comparison breaking down each stage of the process and comparing them.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> I have no doubt that very clever people have done all the very clever maths to get the result they want, but given the range of sizes in lever machines and spring configurations I'd be fascinated to see a detailed comparison breaking down each stage of the process and comparing them.


 There's a thread here about the Vostok 1 group, which will start shipping the first 10 or so first units very soon. That machine is very different from the one proposed here, so the purpose is not to compare them. But that machine has a gauge on the La San Marco group and a dual spring, which you can see the pressure applied when pulling a shot.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator

MediumRoastSteam said:


> There's a thread here about the Vostok 1 group, which will start shipping the first 10 or so first units very soon. That machine is very different from the one proposed here, so the purpose is not to compare them. But that machine has a gauge on the La San Marco group and a dual spring, which you can see the pressure applied when pulling a shot.


 Yes/ agree on all fronts. I think.

The gauge on the Vostok will be very useful.

In terms of comparison, not to say if one is 'better' but if the characteristics of the spring are integral to the type/ character of espresso a machine makes, it seems to me that being able to see the differences in technical stats would be very useful. When choosing a machine one can then understand the fundamentals behind the machine they are buying.


----------



## Nopapercup

TRatcliffe said:


> I mean la pavoni and elektra haven't tried much since the Beatles. Is it just Laziness marketed as 'iconic design'?


 If it ain't broke. Specifically for Pavoni levers there's still a huge market and profit margins on them must be massive.


----------



## DavecUK

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> This is why I start scratching my head.
> 
> 1. If pulling the lever to compress the spring is storing the energy to be applied to the water/ puck then the amount of force required to pull the lever must correlate to that force - with the pressure affected by PF size/ grind size etc etc
> 
> 2. The force applied by the spring reduces as it extends.
> 
> 3. I have no doubt that very clever people have done all the very clever maths to get the result they want, but given the range of sizes in lever machines and spring configurations I'd be fascinated to see a detailed comparison breaking down each stage of the process and comparing them.


 1. & 2 Plenty of stuff on Hooks law, stress and strain and multiple springs on YouTube.

https://xaktly.com/HookesLaw.html

3. A lot of it will have been experience as well, as all springs are not "ideal" springs, and they age over time. Any detailed maths will be held in commercial confidence by the manufacturers.

A gauge does actually show what is really happening...it's also useful if you want to play with pressure and know what's really going on.


----------



## Chainlinephil

Generally for lighter or genuine medium roasts a lower pressure than 10bar is preferable in my experience, definitely initially and then after when puck resistance is lower after PI. Even more so when running EKspresso or similar course fast shots for high EY where I found 7.5 bar as a max to work best.

I found the ability to manage PI pressure very valuable on my LR, and used to switch between a range of 3 and 5 bar for light/med beans all the time. 
I miss the LR if I'm honest.

I change the pressure profile (though via flow obviously) a lot on my Slayer depending on beans, often not rising above 3bar, in fact not increasing beyond zero bar for 15-20s often, with a 1g/s flow rate over a 30s pre infusion period to first drops then setting main brew pump pressure at max of 8.5 bar which decays, much like the lever, with a gear pump over a further 30 -40s.
I do mix it up depending on bean and sometimes enhancing acidity requires a faster curve but still zero to 8.5 bar over 15s, rising rapidly in the last 5s is as fast as I'd go.

Based on my experience, and everyone is different I accept, a very high pressure (above 9bar) is not key feature to seek out in a machine. The ability to change the preload on a spring to increase pressure if you choose like the Leva would be useful but it also changes the curve...

I did some experiments setting pressure above 10bar on the pump on my Slayer and driving it early in the shot and it wasn't great.


----------



## DavecUK

@Chainlinephil Fortunately you will be able to get yourself a LC when it's out, especially as the price is only £1K. Space permitting it should give you the best of both worlds for your personal needs. 🙂


----------



## Sharkie

As a happy londinium owner here, currently have an l1-p and previously had an L1, I notice that a few comments from long standing members here seem to be using a very old londinium issue that was not indicative of the range at the time ( as an example of londinium build quality.)

I am delighted with the quality of my machines and can quite honestly say I have never had better espresso than from my londinium and modded Versalab combination. I hope that the same quality runs through on the little machine when it comes to market. It will certainly add a very interesting proposition to the £1k price point.


----------



## mathof

dfk41 said:


> Well, this is a very interesting topic matey! You can tune a spring in a few ways which means that you can match your perception of the required pressure to suit yourself. Something I cannot quite follow, is virtually all commercial machines opt for a dual spring, yet Bosco and Londinium who share the same, cheaper Fiorenzato group opt for a single spring. It certainly takes more grunt to pull a dual spring so maybe it is just down to physics meaning the smaller bodied one groups would tip. The Alex does not but it is a monster of a machine. I can remember one commentator informing us that they had fitted two springs to a certain machine (L1) and the result was that the strength of the spring was too great for the SO beans used and the shot was destroyed. A few years on and that argument seems a little suspect to me for a number of reasons.....but, back on track......the LC should be able to have a spring that the R&D team recommend after no doubt, thoroughly testing this aspect


 Around the time the first Londinium was released, Reiss wrote on his blog that he had opted for one spring because having tested both versions, he thought that the double-spring coffee tasted too much like espresso from a pump machine.


----------



## 4085

Sharkie said:


> I hope that the same quality runs through on the little machine *when* it comes to market. I


 I used to love my L1's until I realised that there was absolutely no data available to back up the extraordinary claims made by the management......


----------



## 4085

mathof said:


> Around the time the first Londinium was released, Reiss wrote on his blog that he had opted for one spring because having tested both versions, he thought that the double-spring coffee tasted too much like espresso from a pump machine.


 Nope, he said that the double spring was too strong and destroyed the taste of the single origin coffees he tried it on....I have the quotes safely stored away matey........it had absolutely nothing, to do with the fact the extra grunt required on the dual spring might have made it tip........


----------



## mathof

dfk41 said:


> Nope, he said that the double spring was too strong and destroyed the taste of the single origin coffees he tried it on....I have the quotes safely stored away matey........it had absolutely nothing, to do with the fact the extra grunt required on the dual spring might have made it tip........


 My memory is that he hypothesised that when lever machines came back into vogue after spring machines were well-established, the manufacturers used two springs in order to imitate the now familiar taste of pump machines. But maybe I read that elsewhere. In any case, he could have written on another occasion about the deleterious effect of high pressure extractions on single origin coffees. This, of course, would not have concerned manufacturers with their sights on Italian bar blends.


----------



## 4085

mathof said:


> This, of course, would not have concerned manufacturers with their sights on Italian bar blends.


 Which is most of the commercial world then! Anyway, without wanting to compare machines, I have chatted extensively with @DAvecuk about this and he has posted on his Youtube channel and commented, that in the case of the Vostok with dual springs, his own roasted expensively sourced single origin beans are 100% most definitely not destroyed by the Vostok.....odd thst Londinium who have a single spring should counter that......maybe if Dave bought some Lavaza or similar he might get even better results, whilst the connoisseur sticks with what he has


----------



## CamV6

Haven't been here in a while but was keen to catch up on this thread to see if progress has been made, what is strange is the forum seems different, there seems like a lot of londinium bashing going on at present, odd for what has widely been regarded as one of the best lever machines on the market. I am an owner of a lux model L1 which still looks amazing, having read around it appears someone was a little unlucky with their first machine and completely understand the disappointment they must have experienced. However my experience has only ever been positive, I have had amazing coffee ever since getting my hands on mine. 
I am really interested in the single spring vs double spring debate flying around, again in my experience the lower pressure of the single spring brings out optimal flavours in lighter or medium roasts, isn't that why folk reduce the pressure on gaggia classics for example, and is widely accepted I. High end speciality coffee that a lower pressure is great, so I do not understand the logic of hammering the puck with 12 bar of pressure that is generated from a dual spring (not sure on the exact numbers). Anyway not sure why the Vostok keeps being mentioned on here as it's a completely different machine at a completely different price point to the anticipated LC. I just wish it would hurry up and get here.


----------



## 4085

Hiya Cam.....nice to see you back! Actually, I owned two Luxe versions. As is documented, the first leaked like a sieve and the second, within the year all the pipes turned a shade of pink! It was as if someone had painted them with nail varnish! I contacted Reiss who told me to naff off. Let me explain further. The L2 had just come out and he sold his first one to a cafe in Edinburgh. I think some members visited it when they went up there for the weekend. They had a Luxe which he promoted on his blog as 'for sale'. I emailed him and asked if the warranty was transferable and he replied in the affirmative. Seeing as how they assured me that theirs did not leak I bought it. The exchange took place in a little Northumbrian village convenient to both of us. Where we met used to have a little cafe that sold wonderful bacon sandwiches.....Millfield was its name. Unfortunately they had sold out and it was now an Italian restaurant! Anyway, within a few short weeks as I said, all the pipes turned pink, so I emailed Reiss and he said no warranty. When I replied copying in the email where he said the warranty was transferrable, he replied saying it was, just not to me! I took that as a clear sign and so your friend met me in Leeds a couple of days later where he gave me steel sides from another machine, and I gave him the Luxe glass sides. He then polished up another machine and sold it on as a Luxe.....strange that you should end up with one matey!

Thanks for jogging me memory about this second Luxe machine I owned, as I had forgotten about it! Tell me I am wrong but did Reiss not abandon roasting darker beans which he absolutely used to tell us they were what lever machines were all about in favour of roasting much lighter beans which in turn led to the development of the LR then the LR24 which are far more suited to lighter roasts than the original L1. Can I ask how you know the puck is being hammered at 12 bar, I mean, I take it you actually have some evidence to back this up with, or is it rhetoric (just for the record!)


----------



## DavecUK

Rincewind said:


> @dfk41


 The question seems irrelevant and I don't believe @dfk41 has said that...or at least I can't find it?????

Anyway back to the LC...the thread started in 25 June 2017 with the sentence



> According to Reiss, Londinium Compact (LC) is available in 12 months time


 Is there any firm information on a timescale, in 3 months it will have been 4 years and 100s of posts? Mostly speculative.blockquote widgetblockquote widget


----------



## MWJB

Rincewind said:


> Something unpleasant


 People are allowed subjective like & dislikes. If they have had what they feel is a poor tangible experience, they can state that too. It won't always be everyone's experience, readers can weigh up plusses & minuses and follow their best intuition.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Rincewind said:


> Something unpleasant


 I Still think the Xbox is better than the PlayStation .

Do you own a londinium at the mo?


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator

The Vecits remains high on my 'to be considered' list when it comes to levers. I've got time, so will wait to see what the second half of this year brings.

If it steams milk well, then it could be a very strong contender.


----------



## CamV6

I dunno, all i do know is that it's all the machine I'll ever need and I've not got upgraditis since this came in to my life all those years ago. It's nice to be free of all that crapola knowing that I have a home lever machine that more than out matches my skills, that's relatively simple and straightforward, good components, fabulous group and lever system, and the support I get from Londinium is second to none in my experience. Reiss has been friendly, approachable, and very helpful whenever I've needed service parts or any help. I can't fault Londinium personally


----------



## DavecUK

CamV6 said:


> I dunno, all i do know is that it's all the machine I'll ever need and I've not got upgraditis since this came in to my life all those years ago. It's nice to be free of all that crapola knowing that I have a home lever machine that more than out matches my skills, that's relatively simple and straightforward, good components, fabulous group and lever system, and the support I get from Londinium is second to none in my experience. Reiss and Dave have always been friendly, approachable, and very helpful whenever I've needed service parts or any help. I can't fault Londinium personally


 I didn't know Dave did servicing and parts for them, that's useful to know with Reiss in NZ, it will certainly help with the Vectis.


----------



## CamV6

DavecUK said:


> I didn't know Dave did servicing and parts for them, that's useful to know with Reiss in NZ, it will certainly help with the Vectis.


 No, that's not correct. just to clarify I meant Dave had helped me with stuff in relation to my L1 and fitting parts I'd bought from Reiss. Bad initial expression on my part. Sorry for the confusion


----------



## Phil104

Other than saying that I have never owned an Xbox or a PlayStation although I prefer the name Xbox, sounds much more grown up and edgy, I have to weigh up a more detailed response or simply go and make another fantastic espresso through my consistently fantastic L1. Mmmmm, I think I'll go and make an espresso.


----------



## 4085

Phil104 said:


> Other than saying that I have never owned an Xbox or a PlayStation although I prefer the name Xbox, sounds much more grown up and edgy, I have to weigh up a more detailed response or simply go and make another fantastic espresso through my consistently fantastic L1. Mmmmm, I think I'll go and make an espresso.


 Can I ask what and how you are measuring to be able to say consistently fantastic matey?


----------



## Phil104

dfk41 said:


> Can I ask what and how you are measuring to be able to say consistently fantastic matey?


 I use medium light roasts, 17gms and 34gms when I remove the cup, in give or take 36 seconds. This was a procedure that I got from Callum Biggin, when he was working with Lee at Foundry Roast (I don't think Callum is there anymore and I don't think he's active on the Forum any more). The important caveat, which runs through this thread, is that this procedure works for me and apart from roasts that aren't to my taste, what I produce is consistently fantastic to my taste.


----------



## 4085

Phil104 said:


> I use medium light roasts, 17gms and 34gms when I remove the cup, in give or take 36 seconds. This was a procedure that I got from Callum Biggin, when he was working with Lee at Foundry Roast (I don't think Callum is there anymore and I don't think he's active on the Forum any more). The important caveat, which runs through this thread, is that this procedure works for me and apart from roasts that aren't to my taste, what I produce is consistently fantastic to my taste.


 But is any machine you can think of, capable of producing 34 gms from 17 gm in? I was wondering more along the lines of what your Londinium brought to the table in its own right, and if it does bring something to the table (consistency) how do you measure that so as you can repeat it?


----------



## PJCT

DavecUK said:


> The question seems irrelevant and I don't believe @dfk41 has said that...or at least I can't find it?????
> 
> Anyway back to the LC...the thread started in 25 June 2017 with the sentence
> 
> Is there any firm information on a timescale, in 3 months it will have been 4 years and 100s of posts? Mostly speculative.


 The Londinium LC is the machine of the future - and it always will be*

I got fed up of waiting and bought a secondhand L1 which, although larger and heavier than I wanted, I like very much.

*To paraphrase various quotes about nuclear fusion/hydrogen fuel etc.


----------



## steveholt

Saw this thread bumped.

Thought there was news.

Ah well.


----------



## 4085

steveholt said:


> Saw this thread bumped.
> 
> Thought there was news.
> 
> Ah well.


 I cupped my ears, I turned my tv down, I put the dog outside in case she barked, yet despite my best endeavours, guess what I could hear..................absolutely nothing


----------



## Enea

steveholt said:


> Saw this thread bumped.
> 
> Thought there was news.
> 
> Ah well.


 this machine has been so long in the making, it better automatically dial my grinder in and wake me up with a kiss when it finally comes out, or I'll be disappointed.


----------



## DavecUK

I think this looks fantastic and probably much better than the LC

https://www.odysseyespresso.com/


----------



## DavecUK

I also found the two back issues of this to be an interesting read...issue 3 is not available on line yet

https://thelevermag.com/pages/issue-1


----------



## 4085

DavecUK said:


> I think this looks fantastic and probably much better than the LC
> 
> https://www.odysseyespresso.com/


 But, since we know absolutely nothing about the LC, officially, then it would be hard for absolutely anything, not to be probably much better. Still, when the Unicorns release it out into the world, with its bus pass, we may yet have the mile wide grin knocked off our faces.........


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Bar has been set high vis a vis expectations. Am sure the LC will be a capable machine at its price but that's the key. Will it come in at the touted price of a grand? Until it debuts and the price is announced it's all hype.


----------



## DavecUK

If the Odyssey hits it's target price it looks like being about £750 (inc VAT and duty) + shipping from USA. I also think it looks very cool indeed....spring or manual lever, all in one.


----------



## Instant no more !

I will add my thoughts on this

It looks more style than function , A bit on the lightweight side for me ,

As said it's just my thoughts so please don't crucify me


----------



## 4085

The Systemic Kid said:


> Bar has been set high vis a vis expectations. Am sure the LC will be a capable machine at its price but that's the key. Will it come in at the touted price of a grand? Until it debuts and the price is announced it's all hype.


 I do not understand, how the r & d needed to develop a new group can bring it in at under a grand. Since Londinium are a sales company only, not being able to manufacture anything then it is difficult to see how they can really influence factory time with Fracino. It is going to have to have some time with testing, then space has to be booked with Fracino. Let us hope that the companies already mooted, like Cadburys do not hog the factory output too much allowing this potential gem to take its place in the market


----------



## 4085

Instant no more ! said:


> I will add my thoughts on this
> 
> It look more style than function , A bit on the lightweight side for me ,
> 
> As said it's just my thoughts so please don't crucify me


 You may well be right, just as much as you may well be wrong! Someone needs to buy one and get it tested.....levers in their natural form are quite simple beasts......


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

According to fresh news from the press, from a trusted source, June is now likely to be when a *prototype* will be out.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Prototype field testing has never been Londinium's model previously. If any field testing had been undertaken - it was never made public.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator

@DavecUK On the Odyssey, I don't understand how it can be spring or manual reliably is such a small space.

It also looks like a small group, so a small single spring? They way the group is attached to the boiler also seems... flimsy? But maybe a small single sitting doesn't need much.

So given all the talk about single springs, will it have the grunt needed?

@MediumRoastSteam @The Systemic KidK

In March a chancer email to Reiss returned that the tool maker was making the dies for forge the group.

This seems like a big deal. There must be a certain amount of confidence in the design of they are tooling up?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> @DavecUK On the Odyssey, I don't understand how it can be spring or manual reliably is such a small space.
> 
> It also looks like a small group, so a small single spring? They way the group is attached to the boiler also seems... flimsy? But maybe a small single sitting doesn't need much.
> 
> So given all the talk about single springs, will it have the grunt needed?
> 
> @MediumRoastSteam @The Systemic KidK
> 
> In March a chancer email to Reiss returned that the tool maker was making the dies for forge the group.
> 
> This seems like a big deal. There must be a certain amount of confidence in the design of they are tooling up?


 I think everyone who's been following and has been waiting for this machine can't wait until at least the prototype is out, including myself. Until then, sadly, it's all speculation. I for one would love to see this in the wild and how it performs. I do like the simplicity of lever machines, snd a 58mm group compact machine is something we haven't seen for a long, long time. So yeah, I do look forward to it, and look forward to the prototype being shown and hopefully benchmarked and tested (stability, group temp, steaming capability, etc)


----------



## 4085

The Systemic Kid said:


> Prototype field testing has never been Londinium's model previously. If any field testing had been undertaken - it was never made public.


 Afraid all we will hear is oohs and aah from the chosen few......in fact would not surprise me even though the prototype is not yet in the field, if the reviews are already written


----------



## DavecUK

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> @DavecUK 1. On the Odyssey, I don't understand how it can be spring or manual reliably is such a small space.
> 
> It also looks like a small group, so a small single spring? They way the group is attached to the boiler also seems... flimsy? But maybe a small single sitting doesn't need much.
> 
> 2. So given all the talk about single springs, will it have the grunt needed?
> 
> @MediumRoastSteam @The Systemic KidK
> 
> In March a chancer email to Reiss returned that the tool maker was making the dies for forge the group.
> 
> This seems like a big deal. There must be a certain amount of confidence in the design of they are tooling up?


 You did ask... and I have already been doing some thinking about it when I first saw the gallery photos!

2. It depends on the range of motion, maximum shot size and strength of spring selected. When you look at it, there is some ambiguity. e.g. it says can pull 6 2oz shots, which is pretty much 58ml shots which will weigh in the region of 62g+, that's a really big shot to pull under pressure.

The V-Vostok can pull 45-50g shots (just). Add in the puck holding say around 20g and you have 102ml respectively for the total volume of the brew area.

These measurements are for the entire area used for brew water. Chamber and headspace above the puck...which is different to the "swept volume" of the piston.

These are really big groups and pressure from the LSM double spring group is way down at 45-50g, possibly 5 or 4 bar and dropping rapidly to zero. This is because only the "swept volume" of the piston can generate pressure.

A 54mm LSM group has a piston size of 50mm, and the "swept volume" based on around 33mm of piston movement calculates to be around 66ml. Of course the pressure has dropped way down in that last 15ml.

So the Odyssey pulling a 62g shot, doesn't seem realistic (as neither the Firoenzato or the LSM can)...in fact pulling a shot as big as the 2 much larger groups is going to be challenging. I suspect they "might" be talking about the cylinders total volume (including pf headpsace)...? but I don't know

For the Odyssey from guestimating measurements measurements using the images, with a 58mm group and 54mm piston...the swept volume for 30mm of piston movement will be around 66ml and for 20mm around 45ml. Or something in between the 2. It's hard to see the spring having enough energy to provide for a large shot at 9 bar?

1. The method of conversion from spring lever to manual lever, looks to be moving it from a 1st order lever to a 3rd order lever. I imagine it's accomplished by undoing the hex bolts and rotating the top piece 180 degrees. I hope the diagram below is clear. It would then operate as a 3rd order lever (a la Pavoni style)









So in summary a single spring might well give the desired* 9 bar for a smaller shot* (certainly not the size of double in the LSM group)... In a larger group like on the V-Vostok* a single spring* would give the same sort of low max pressure profiles you have already seen in the 2 video examples I found. I could *course be completely wrong. T*ake this with a pinch of salt...because I'm getting all this of photos of their prototype...*I still expect the Odyssey to be a really nice little machine as long as people have the correct expectations of it's performance.....*


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator

@DavecUK All assumptions and limitations acknowledged. This is a brilliant answer thank you.


----------



## mathof

From today's news section on Londinium's site:

"the compact lever machine &#8230; remains on target to deliver a final sample for pre-production testing and sign off in June."


----------



## 4085

I wonder who on this forum will get hands on with one during its pre-production stage


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

dfk41 said:


> I wonder who on this forum will get hands on with one during its pre-production stage


 Maybe CoffeeChap will get his hands on one?


----------



## The Systemic Kid

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Maybe CoffeeChap will get his hands on one?


 Guaranteed I would have thought given his relationship with Reiss and Londinium.


----------



## DavecUK

The Systemic Kid said:


> Guaranteed I would have thought given his relationship with Reiss and Londinium.


 I'd completely agree


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator

As per post on other thread (Odyssey), this is mentioned at the link below:

https://thelevermag.com/pages/issue-3

June mentioned and a price of 'around £1,000'


----------



## Marocchino

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> As per post on other thread (Odyssey), this is mentioned at the link below:
> 
> https://thelevermag.com/pages/issue-3
> 
> June mentioned and a price of 'around £1,000'


 The Lever issue 3 has been out a while, since the middle of March.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> As per post on other thread (Odyssey), this is mentioned at the link below:
> 
> https://thelevermag.com/pages/issue-3
> 
> June mentioned and a price of 'around £1,000'


 As Reiss prices his line up ex VAT - guessing the 'around £1k' will be subject to VAT but that's speculation. Will be interesting if it has the versatility of the Odyssey which according to more speculation is set to be priced very competitively.


----------



## DavecUK

The Systemic Kid said:


> As Reiss prices his line up ex VAT - guessing the 'around £1k' will be subject to VAT but that's speculation. Will be interesting if it has the versatility of the Odyssey which according to more speculation is set to be priced very competitively.


 I think the Odyssey will be a very strong competitor to the Londinium compact. Unless the LC can do similar things to the Odyssey, I think it might suffer against the cheaper and very versatile competitor.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator

The Systemic Kid said:


> As Reiss prices his line up ex VAT - guessing the 'around £1k' will be subject to VAT but that's speculation. Will be interesting if it has the versatility of the Odyssey which according to more speculation is set to be priced very competitively.


 Agreed.

The Odyssey is very small/ minimalist. The Vecits size seems to be referred to as 'A4' - really looking forward to some hands on videos/ reviews on all fronts.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Does anyone in the Londinium circles know whether a Vectis prototype has been made available to testers and has there been any feedback? If memory serves me right, there's been talks that a prototype would be available in June, so I'm just wondering whether anyone has heard anything.


----------



## mathof

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Does anyone in the Londinium circles know whether a Vectis prototype has been made available to testers and has there been any feedback? If memory serves me right, there's been talks that a prototype would be available in June, so I'm just wondering whether anyone has heard anything.


 Reiss posted the following on his forum yesterday:

"somewhat annoyingly we now have all the components for the vectis, other than the critically important one; the group. the little 58mm spring group is a gem and i can not wait to share images of it here. the UK foundry that is making the group is a large facility and unfortunately we are a very small customer and they are extremely busy as the UK emerges from the lockdown restrictions of the past year. it is the sort of work that will be done in between two much larger pieces of work i expect. so for now we wait. the foundry will make four of the new lever groups for us to test and sign off into production and then we are good to go."


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

That's a shame. One of the latest update we had from Londinium, around Xmas time, was that it would be ready for sale in April. It's now July and there's nothing tangible yet.









Source: https://londiniumespresso.com/blog/news/3419/merry-xmas

See:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/35822-londinium-compact-lc-is-available-soon/page/16/?do=embed#comments

It's a shame they keep being pushed to the bottom of the queue, as this was also the case right at the start too, in 2018:









Source: https://forum.londiniumespresso.com/discussion/806/londinium-c

Given the whole secrecy of this project - no images, no sneak peaks, nothing! - At this stage it does make me wonder whether there's more to it than a a mere prioritisation issue.

"so for now we wait"...


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Given the whole secrecy of this project - no images, no sneak peaks, nothing! - At this stage it does make me wonder whether there's more to it than a a mere prioritisation issue.
> 
> "so for now we wait"...


 It is rather odd, because normally there is a bit of leakage about new models and even those known to be closely involved with him seems remarkably tight-lipped...

Perhaps with the Argos Lever Espresso machine (formerly known as the Odyssey), looking to be a very versatile unit, and the Introduction of the Vesuvius Evo Leva...both unexpected. They might affect his launch and he is waiting to see how things pan out.

As soon as the Evo started deliveries to customers, the price of the LR24 dropped significantly (rather than the expected 5% rise), perhaps it was just coincidence, *and he was going to drop the price of the flagship prosumer model anyway...just to help out his customers post lockdown. *I would think he would want to launch the Vectis at a firm price and perhaps try and persuade Fracino (manufacturer) to improve the technologies and compete in a lever marketplace that is now moving forward, rather than static, as it has been for many years.

If so, it's a really good thing there are now machines that not only compete with Londiniums offerings, but have moved well beyond them, modernising the lever machine technologically, and improving component quality, enabling better performance. This will no doubt spur Londinium on to produce better machines to compete.


----------



## 4085

@DavecUK My sympathies go out to Londinium. It must be difficult in these times making long term plans, then seeing them have to be re-assessed by competitors beating them to the Market like this. I do hope that the Foundry they are using stops playing silly buggers and respects the smaller businessman by quickly providing the 4 castings they need for Fracino to get on and assemble the 4 prototypes for the little Londinium so the extensive testing can start.


----------



## DavecUK

@dfk41 We live in hope.


----------



## 4085

I saw this comment elsewhere

In terms of how it will stack up against the odyssey machine, they will be different, the odyssey is a great little lever machine that at the price point may put other new lever machines to shame at three times the price.

Think they need to re do the maths and include machines costing 4 times as much!


----------



## cuprajake

I think at this point in time no one cares, except the people directly involved with the machines

Ones brand new to the market, the other ones not even built,

Both are a grand so unless you really want a lever then the imo the market is tiny.

Esp when you can get something like a marax with flow control which will blow both out the water.

Ill be honest this little back and fourth between both forums has put me well off the community, and i rarely engauge with either forums now.


----------



## 4085

Mind you, I do think it is a mistake not to keep people up to speed with the progress the little machine is making. I am probably wrong, but I got the impression from the last official update, that we will never know if the machine is actually going to be made or not, if there are no updates until it is.....kind of confusing. I know a lot of people are putting off the purchase of other 'little levers' in the hope and belief that the Vectis will prove to be the one


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Willing to bet you a fiver LC does arrive @dfk41 As Reiss has said, he's at the mercy of factors he can't control and being located in New Zealand must make things even more complex. Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing how innovative and price competitive it is. If Reiss can get both right, should be a winner. You never know, like the Argos, the LC just might shuffle things up in the baby lever sector of the market as the recently launched ACS Evo has done in the prosumer sector.


----------



## DavecUK

The Systemic Kid said:


> Willing to bet you a fiver LC does arrive @dfk41 As Reiss has said, he's at the mercy of factors he can't control and being located in New Zealand must make things even more complex. Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing how innovative and price competitive it is. If Reiss can get both right, should be a winner. You never know, like the Argos, the LC just might shuffle things up in the baby lever sector of the market as the recently launched ACS Evo has done in the prosumer sector.


 I think if it does, it will be a good thing, Prosumers are not well served in that part of the market as yet...The Argos is having a stab at it. When he finally gets the LC out there will be some choice for customers in that segment. The more the merrier, competition is only a good thing for the market...it's "healthy" as someone I knew was fond of saying.

As you say though, being in New Zealand is tricky when the machine is made here by Fracino.


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## 4085

The Systemic Kid said:


> Willing to bet you a fiver LC does arrive @dfk41 As Reiss has said, he's at the mercy of factors he can't control and being located in New Zealand must make things even more complex. Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing how innovative and price competitive it is. If Reiss can get both right, should be a winner. You never know, like the Argos, the LC just might shuffle things up in the baby lever sector of the market as the recently launched ACS Evo has done in the prosumer sector.


 Bet on!


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## coffeechap

Have truly loved reading through all this stuff by predominantly the same few people. The laugh might be on them soon though &#8230;&#8230;.,,,


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## coffeechap

Have seen elsewhere the debate about the potential cost of this machine and also that you would have to be a lever but to consider buying it, interesting points of view, but something to throw into the mix is the cost of anything else that will be similar to this little lever (but still with a 58mm group). La pavonis are close to a grand and have to be heavily modified to get repeatable temperature stable pulls, the Cremina is £3000 which I thinks is completely over priced for what it is ( you can get a V Evo for less) Electra microcasa is over a grand and gets really hot. The other lever machines are at or above the £2k mark.

Only the Odessey is around that price point, so this may become a two horse race for the lever enthusiasts out there, whom this machine is most certainly aimed at.


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## MediumRoastSteam

@coffeechap - I've been reading around more about this here https://www.****************/forum/coffee-club-aa/londinium/3099-londinium-vectis-londinium-compact/page3

when people started talking about this machine I was very interested (and still am!) - and I was ready to buy a new machine at the time. The machine unfortunately was severely delayed, which got me frustrated and I ended up buying something else. Fast forward a few years and upgraditus is kicking again. I saw a post with the rendering and a photo of the cast group - so looks like things are moving forward now, which is great news. it's hard to say a price point until we know more about the machine - boiler construction, architecture, group capacity, temp stability, pressure, steam performance, recovery time&#8230;

When the first units are out, will you, or Londinium do a video demonstrating the machine and it's features by any chance? That would be superb.

Please keep us posted.

ps: for anyone wondering: I'm not trolling. I'm being dead serious.


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## coffeechap

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @coffeechap - I've been reading around more about this here https://www.****************/forum/coffee-club-aa/londinium/3099-londinium-vectis-londinium-compact/page3
> 
> when people started talking about this machine I was very interested (and still am!) - and I was ready to buy a new machine at the time. The machine unfortunately was severely delayed, which got me frustrated and I ended up buying something else. Fast forward a few years and upgraditus is kicking again. I saw a post with the rendering and a photo of the cast group - so looks like things are moving forward now, which is great news. it's hard to say a price point until we know more about the machine - boiler construction, architecture, group capacity, temp stability, pressure, steam performance, recovery time&#8230;
> 
> When the first units are out, will you, or Londinium do a video demonstrating the machine and it's features by any chance? That would be superb.
> 
> Please keep us posted.
> 
> ps: for anyone wondering: I'm not trolling. I'm being dead serious.


 Never considered you a troll, you have always been very helpful on here.

Completely agree about the parameters you have mentioned, and yes I will be more than happy to do a video once I finally get my hands on one. I will also be more than happy for people to gave a go on it as well.

I am planning another event for lever machines as it's been a looooooong time since the last one. Would be great to have the odyssey and the V evo there so that people can have a play on all the best machines


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## coffeechap

For all the haters elsewhere (yes I know you will be reading this!)


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## Chriss29

Looks ace!


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## coffeechap

Been speaking to reiss and apart for the chassis which is currently undergoing re fabrication and strengthening, everything is going well, the shots he is getting are super sweet so looks really promising. Will get my hands on one pretty soon and will share my thoughts


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