# What should I be getting with my naked p/f??????



## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

Hey folks,

Have finally decided to take the plunge and have a real go with my naked. I bought it ages ago and to be honest I have been a little scared of it (daft I know), but there you go. I don't fully know how the ratios work out with a naked p/f? Do you follow the same method that you would with a conventional one? for example my method right now is this: 15g in 25g out over 25 seconds???? But with this in mind I am putting 15 grams of ground coffee into the basket and getting 2x 25g of output=50g of liquid coffee. Is this right???? I am confused. What would the output be classed as? It is more than a double. Currently I am using my double spouted conventional portafilter. I put one of my little cups on the scales under one of the spouts and tare the weigh to zero. The other cup sits under the other spout directly on the drain grille. There lies my quandry. When using the naked how much ground coffee would I put in to get a double espresso? I am using my new 15gram VST basket in it. I can't seem to get my head around the inputs and outputs when using a naked.

Apologies for my dumb question, but sometimes it can take a while for it to sink in.

Thanks muchly


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Do the same, but obviously you cant pour into two cups, if you want two cups then split the shot afterwards.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

You say 15g in and 25g out, then later you say 50g out.

Are you getting 50g total out from 15g in, 25g per cup under the spouted PF?


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

So I would be getting 50 grams of liquid coffee into the one cup under my naked, Froggy???? To my way of thinking it would be then classed as a quadruple??? Anyone who can drink that has my undying admiration. Blimey. If I have a couple of Cappuccinos made with 25grams of liquid coffee in each and I drink them within a couple of hours of each other. Well I am totally wired.


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## Kman10 (Sep 3, 2014)

50g out is a lot


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

Sorry. Maybe I have not explained it properly. I put 15g of ground coffee in the p/f. I then put two cups under the double spouted p/f. One on the scales and one on the drain. Obviously they will both end up with the same amount of liquid in them. (the one on the scales will read 25g, so the one on the drain will have the same amount in it). With the naked should I still aim for that quantity. The same amount of ground coffee is going in and the time is still 25 seconds. The only difference is that by using the naked all the liquid is going into one cup instead of being spit over two smaller ones?


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

This is why I am a little confused. Having only used the double spouted p/f and following the recommended recipe (I know it is down to personal taste. Nothing is ever set in stone). Therefore what would the recommended amount of liquid coffee be when using a 15g basket and a naked. It is always subjective (everyone is different), but it would be nice to get a handle on what is regarded as a good ratio and quantity.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Yeah that's wrong malc, your extracting 50g of coffee from 15g of grinds in 25 seconds, that's way to much!

When you split your shot you need to split the weight if only weighing one cup, so you should get an output of 12.5g.

Also either your grind is to course or your not tamping firm enough.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

1, it's total liquid out that you should be measuring, so it sounds to me like you're getting 15>[email protected]". That is a little long but not excessive. I often go 18,>[email protected]". It's a different taste to a ristretto of say 18>[email protected]".

I think the main point is that the pf doesn't change the ratio at all. Whether you split the shot or not, it's still total beans in vs total grams out. The idea of the naked is just to see the pour so you can diagnose distribution or tamp problems.

Some say the taste changes slightly between spouted and naked due to less or more contact with the metal. That's a whole different level though. If you like what you've been producing up to now, keep the same ratio. Although it does sound a bit long getting 50 from 15.

Also don't assume both spouts deliver equal volume. This is rarely the case in my experience.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Follow the ratio of 1:1.5 to 1:2.0 with the naked. For a dose of 15grms that would be 23grms out for ratio of 1:1.5 and 30grms out for 1:2.0 - time should be in the ball park of 25-30secs for both.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

That's a weird method you've got - unless you're making two singles with a spouted portafilter, why don't you just use both sides into one cup? If I read it right you're getting 25g from one side of a basket with a 15g dose, which means you're getting 7.5g in 25g out!

We've got nakeds on the Kees in the shop and a typical dose would be 14.6g in 32g out in 30s.

JP


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

Thanks guys. Looks like I have been reading it totally wrong. I have been miles out. Well time to correct it.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

The idea of the naked PF is not about your dose it's more about your technique, dosing, tamping etc.

Naked portafilters allow you to instantly deduce wether proper tamping technique has been achieved.

If the extraction leans to one side or the other an improper angle was used when tamping.

If rogue streams of espresso are seen coming from the bottom of the basket it is possible that your portafilter was leveled and or dosed unevenly.

Ian


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Be worth revisting the links below

At the end of they day if you prefer a 15 g > 50 g out shot that all good, not wrong , just a different preference . Its a fairly dilute shot though. You might get more punch in your milk drinks from a different brew ratio...try and report back

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/content.php?375-Weighing-Espresso-(Brew-Ratios)

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/content.php?376-How-to-weigh-espresso-with-scales-creating-a-brew-recipe


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## gingerneil (Aug 21, 2014)

I definitely find that I get a better flavour with the npf. I'm not sure if its because my standard pf is oldish and looking a bit grubby. I have taken it apart, given it a good scrub and soaked it in cafiza though - so it should be 'clean'. The shots from the npf tends to be more rounded, deeper and cleaner tasting. I'll get lots more chocolate and nuts etc from the npf.


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

Goodness me. What a dingbat i've been. Been reading it and understanding it wrong for ages in that case. As you say jp. Should in reality have been putting both spouts of my double p/f into the same cup. Doh. I'll get me coat!!!!!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

m4lcs67 said:


> Goodness me. What a dingbat i've been. Been reading it and understanding it wrong for ages in that case. As you say jp. Should in reality have been putting both spouts of my double p/f into the same cup. Doh. I'll get me coat!!!!!


Its only wrong if it tastes bad....


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## StuartS (Jan 2, 2015)

Now that the penny has dropped on ratios etc, the only thing to be fearful of using the naked is a bit of mess.

As has been said, all you are doing is removing the bottom of the portafilter so you can see the coffee as it's coming out of the basket (as opposed to out of the spouts). It is only used to have a close look for the signs of poor distribution and uneven tamping. Any spritzers (i think thats the term) are a sign of poor distribution/channelling. With a normal portafilter these jets of liquid are collected and passed down through the spout (and they muck up the shot). With a naked they go all over your cup and machine.

You can also watch the flow emerge from the holes in the basket so if your puck is denser (or deeper - uneven tamp) in some places, you would see the flow emerging a bit later. You can also see early blonding indicating less dense zones.

The whole point is to help avoid a shot which is a mixture of over and underextracted coffee and get one which is as evenly extracted as possible.

I use mine when I am making a large cappa or a double espresso into one cup. Otherwise its the double spout into two cups.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

StuartS said:


> Now that the penny has dropped on ratios etc, the only thing to be fearful of using the naked is a bit of mess.
> 
> As has been said, all you are doing is removing the bottom of the portafilter so you can see the coffee as it's coming out of the basket (as opposed to out of the spouts). It is only used to have a close look for the signs of poor distribution and uneven tamping. Any spritzers (i think thats the term) are a sign of poor distribution/channelling. With a normal portafilter these jets of liquid are collected and passed down through the spout (and they muck up the shot). With a naked they go all over your cup and machine.
> 
> ...


I didn't think anyone drank single shot milk drinks any more. Have sold about 2 in an entire year.

JP


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## StuartS (Jan 2, 2015)

jjprestidge said:


> I didn't think anyone drank single shot milk drinks any more. Have sold about 2 in an entire year.
> 
> JP


It's just a small cappucino. Nowt strange about that.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jjprestidge said:


> I didn't think anyone drank single shot milk drinks any more. Have sold about 2 in an entire year.
> 
> JP


All I drink


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I do split pours in the ek but they're 20 out a side


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Drink what you enjoy!


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

StuartS said:


> It's just a small cappucino. Nowt strange about that.


In Italy maybe. In UK speciality coffee it's very rare (despite the fact the UKBC anachronistically requires baristas to produce a single shot 5oz cappuccino in competition).

JP


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