# Is it worth buying Oracle Sage?



## coffeemilk (Nov 7, 2018)

I am new to the forum so hello to all!

I am looking to purchase a good espresso machine and was considering some dual boiler ones like ECM, Bezzera, Profitec , Lilet and Exobar.

I came across Sage Oracle, which has some good features and a fair price but its built cheap and based on many reviews I read, it brakes down fairly often. This is not an issue for me, if I am able to buy parts.

So I just phoned Sage to enquire about some parts and prices and found out that they do not sell internal parts at all!!?
















I gathered from various posts, many in this community are hands on and are capable of replacing a Vibration pump or solenoid or perform similar repairs.

So I have couple of questions:

1. Does anybody know where I can by Sage Oracle parts such as vibration pump, pipes and solenoid?

2. Is it worth buying this thing, given other machines above have a great availability of parts and are much better build quality?


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Budget.


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## coffeemilk (Nov 7, 2018)

Jony said:


> Budget.


...meaning what, budget for repairs?


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

No, for your whole set up.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

You have a similar thread open already one is enough.


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## coffeemilk (Nov 7, 2018)

Jony said:


> You have a similar thread open already one is enough.


... it is asking a completely different question, in my mind.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

@Coffeemilk reading your first paragraph for me has you answering your own question ..

I bought a sage oracle as a kitchen appliance to make coffee and as new to this it seemed to tick all the boxes .

It broke and I bought a Profitec..

I believe Sage view their coffee machines as appliances, if they break during warranty they replace or repair ..

After the warranty they expect you to replace.. buy another one

But while I had it it did everything I wanted and makes nice coffee


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## GerryM (Feb 6, 2016)

I had a sage Oracle (non touch) for a while which my daughter now has and loves. I bought the Oracle as I was sick of making coffee for anyone that appeared in the house, my wife and eldest daughter pleaded ignorance when we had a standard dual boiler and insisted i made the drinks.

The Sage made it easy for anyone at home to make a decent coffee and is great for making multiple coffees .... It's a very good machine in my opinion, however, unless you have another more competent grinder you'll be stuck with drink that are decent but likely never amazing depending upon your starting point, they will be better than the high street chains and many independents depending upon the beans you use.

It's an expensive machine and unless you value the convenience of the Oracle I would consider a separate dual boiler and grinder, or an HX machine and grinder depending upon what your priorities are and the type of drinks you'd like to produce.

The grinder in the Oracle is the limiting factor, it's entry level and that will be frustrating if you want to get the most out of your coffee beans. If you just want simplicity and convenience then the Oracle should fit the bill.


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## coffeemilk (Nov 7, 2018)

Nicknak said:


> @Coffeemilk reading your first paragraph for me has you answering your own question ..
> 
> I bought a sage oracle as a kitchen appliance to make coffee and as new to this it seemed to tick all the boxes .
> 
> ...


I guess I did. Probably I just needed to hear it from somebody else, with more experience.

Sorry you had to learn the hard way and go trough the loop of buy\sale but at least you got the machine you are happy with now.

I am really surprised they have this strategy, as I think it will turn away many people from buying their product.

The way a look at this, if you are spending more than a grand on a coffee machine, you are likely buying a prosumer product, which , as far as I can see, almost always have good support with available parts.

In this scenario, if your machine brakes, it pretty much goes back to the "Apple store".


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## coffeemilk (Nov 7, 2018)

GerryM said:


> I had a sage Oracle (non touch) for a while which my daughter now has and loves. I bought the Oracle as I was sick of making coffee for anyone that appeared in the house, my wife and eldest daughter pleaded ignorance when we had a standard dual boiler and insisted i made the drinks.
> 
> The Sage made it easy for anyone at home to make a decent coffee and is great for making multiple coffees .... It's a very good machine in my opinion, however, unless you have another more competent grinder you'll be stuck with drink that are decent but likely never amazing depending upon your starting point, they will be better than the high street chains and many independents depending upon the beans you use.
> 
> ...


Partially, that is why I was considering it, so I don't have to make all the coffees







. However, what made me turn the other way is the support and non-availability of parts plus material number of negative reviews. As I said, this would not bother me if the parts were available.

I am glad you machines still works, good luck with it.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The grinder is poor, the programme double cup buttons can be variable and will struggle with back to back drinks .

Its temp stable , quick to warm up , and its very good at milk

It wont produce the same quality espresso as a decent grinder , a separate machine and some scales.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeemilk said:


> I guess I did. Probably I just needed to hear it from somebody else, with more experience.
> 
> Sorry you had learn the hard way and go trough the loop of buy\sale but at least you got your machine you are happy with now.
> 
> ...


People who buy this machine are treating it like a kitchen appliance , not a repairable espresso machine. So will it impact on its real market , unlikely.


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## coffeemilk (Nov 7, 2018)

GerryM said:


> I would consider a separate dual boiler and grinder, or an HX machine and grinder depending upon what your priorities are and the type of drinks you'd like to produce.


... also, thanks for the above advice, specifically. It makes sense.

I am still trying to figure out HX and why dual boiler setup is that much better.

As to the grinder - I am trying to go very cheap initially, as the coffee machine will be a big dent in my pocket. So I am still undecided on grinders.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeemilk said:


> ... also, thanks for the above advice, specifically. It makes sense.
> 
> I am still trying to figure out HX and why dual boiler setup is that much better.
> 
> As to the grinder - I am trying to go very cheap initially, as the coffee machine will be a big dent in my pocket. So I am still undecided on grinders.


Poor grinder = poor coffee... set a budget for your set up , there is not point spending £1000 on a machine and £100 on a grinder. It's false economy .


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

coffeemilk said:


> ... also, thanks for the above advice, specifically. It makes sense.
> 
> I am still trying to figure out HX and why dual boiler setup is that much better.
> 
> As to the grinder - I am trying to go very cheap initially, as the coffee machine will be a big dent in my pocket. So I am still undecided on grinders.


Check out the for sale section. Quite a few have recently bought a Niche grinder that's just come to market so are selling off what it's replacing. The simple fact that just about everyone is choosing to keep the niche (sometimes over much more expensive grinders) speaks volumes so is well worth considering. There is a bit of a waiting list as they work through preorders though.


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## coffeemilk (Nov 7, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> People who buy this machine are treating it like a kitchen appliance , not a repairable espresso machine. So will it impact on its real market , unlikely.


I agree with your point!

But I guess I am making a point for people who are not buying it because of comments raised in previous posts.

Here is my conclusion:

I will not be buying the Sage Oracle, which :

- is functionally rich (allowing most people to make good coffee)

- is elegant (in my view)

- works after a year or so if you are lucky

- you cannot find spare parts for

- and costs as much as a good Bezzera, which is much better quality and only marginally less functionality

I think I summed it up.

In any case, I thank you all for providing your thoughts.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeemilk said:


> I agree with your point!
> 
> But I guess I am making a point for people who are not buying it because of comments raised in previous posts.
> 
> ...


Id disagree on a it allowing anyone to make good coffee. You still have to understand a little bit about the relationship between dose and water to understand why your coffee tastes the way it does.

It does alot of the things quite well for the user ( dose , tamp ) but it is still not plug and play.


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## coffeemilk (Nov 7, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> Poor grinder = poor coffee... set a budget for your set up , there is not point spending £1000 on a machine and £100 on a grinder. It's false economy .


I have seen this mentioned in many places and I can see why.

Will have to buy SH or just wait for a bit before the dent is smaller.


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## coffeemilk (Nov 7, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> Id disagree on a it allowing anyone to make good coffee. You still have to understand a little bit about the relationship between dose and water to understand why your coffee tastes the way it does.
> 
> It does alot of the things quite well for the user ( dose , tamp ) but it is still not plug and play.


Fear enough but I did say most not anyone.


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## GerryM (Feb 6, 2016)

I'd heed the advice on buying a good grinder, that and the beans you use will make the most difference to what's possible taste wise in my limited experience.

What are your requirements drink wise, will you be making mainly milk based drinks ie Latte, Cappuccino etc or straight Espresso? How many will you make a day and will you need to make multiple drinks back to back or not?

If as an example you're making a couple of drinks a day and not many back to back why not start off simple with a grinder such as a Eureka Mignion or Mazzer Super Jolly and an entry level machine say a sage duo temp pro, learn the basics of making a decent coffee before forking out big money on an espresso machine.

I imagine you'll be disappointed if you buy an expensive espresso machine and use it with a cheap grinder, if you buy a decent grinder and a cheap machine you'll probably be a lot happier with the coffee you're making.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

In short, no. For the same money you can get a seperate grinder and machine that will last longer, make better coffee an be more easily repaired if required. They will also hold more resale value as and when you choose to upgrade.


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## coffeemilk (Nov 7, 2018)

My key requirement is 80% milk-coffee drinks and 20% espresso only. Also, I wold be making 2-4 coffees in one go, so dual boiler is probably something I would need.

Because of the milk drinks, I would like some decent pressure e.g. >=1.3 bars on the steam wand, preferably 1.8.

Maybe I should settle with Exobar Leva £1300 + decent grinder £500-£600, instead of £2000 Profitec/ECM and £200 grinder.

Thank you for advice.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

coffeemilk said:


> My key requirement is 80% milk-coffee drinks and 20% espresso only. Also, I wold be making 2-4 coffees in one go, so dual boiler is probably something I would need.
> 
> Because of the milk drinks, I would like some decent pressure e.g. >=1.3 bars on the steam wand, preferably 1.8.
> 
> ...


So...

Are you ok to let the machine warm up for 30-40 minutes from cold? Would you consider leaving it on all day otherwise?

I used to own a Profitec Pro 700. Great machine. If my wife and son drank coffee every day, I would've kept it. But it's only me, so I thought of getting a Sage... did similar research to yours, no spare parts, and that was a deal breaker for me. I love the features, convenience and quick warm up time of the Sage, but the lack of spares puts me off.

Ps: I now have a La Pavoni. For 1 person, it's great!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The original question was about parts not if the grinder is any good - that always generates the same mantra. Posts can be found on coffee quality on the Oracle by people who own them. Frankly there are so many variables that can alter taste I don't see how anyone can say a certain grinder can't produce a decent drink - providing it does grind evenly and doesn't produce too high a ratio of fines and huge solid clumps etc.

Spares for diy look to be increasingly difficult.







I haven't given up yet but am too tied up with other things at the moment to spend time replacing certain parts on my DB. The O rings just in case. They can be obtained anyway.

There are some failures on the boiler machines.

O ring seals. It seems these may act up after around 3 years. Some advise taking a look in all machines every 6 months for leaks before they cause serious problems. Few if any Sage owners do and it might not be a good idea while under warrantee which can be up to 3 years. People replace with Viton but silicone is also available.

Solenoids - seems to relate to the 3 way buzzing and can often be cured by dismantling it and cleaning it. Seals in that may perish over time but are probably replaceable. Can't buy new. Not so sure about that - this includes some Sage solenoids. Maybe the seller can help with identification.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=sage+solenoid&LH_PrefLoc=3&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=olab+valve&_sacat=0

The other thing that can act up is the rear shower screen as they call it. It's the part that Sage heat separately that also heats the grouphead. It aluminium coated with something and the coating can blister. People seem to just put up with it. It doesn't have any effect on function.

Last but not least the dreaded valve error during a descale that should be down to scale blocking the drains. Much more likely to be a level sensing probe problem so the probes need cleaning. If it does happen to be scale that shouldn't worry some one who doesn't mind taking machines apart.

If the probes may need cleaning there is a chance that the boiler may need the same sort of treatment. There are a variety of chemicals about that could do that.

Electronics - if they bust cost is pretty excessive on any machine. On Sage and others i have only seen problems mentioned that are down to water one way or another. Other than my Mazzer grinder timer. Retail costs for a replacement for those range from £100+ to 200 or so.

If parts can't be obtained the Lelit Elizabeth might be a suitable alternative to the DB. Many similar features but heat up time may be and probably is longer. I often wonder why more machines don't use separate grouphead heating as generally boilers heat up in a few mins. Given that even tat bean to cup machines tend to have flow meters fitted I also wonder why these tend to cost rather a lot extra on espresso machines or aren't even offered. True ancient E61 groupheads may appeal to some but I'd suspect that just like me there are many who don't want the hassle.

The Oracle seems to come into it's own when people want something any member of the family can just go along and use.

Hidden problems - might be the same as the DB - pucks sticking to the shower screen. I asked about that and found that I'm not the only one that comes across that. Even a web page that seems to be from a retailer can be found that mentions it. It's very hit and miss. For instance new bean. 14g sticks, 15 sticks as does 16. Trying 1/2g steps didn't help. One last night at 14.3 didn't stick. First one that didn't next one might or perhaps I have found a dose that will work all of the time. On the BE and the Piccino I could use a range. without this happening. One way round it is refit and a rather short pulse from the 1 shot button releases it - most of the time. Another bean I use a lot - I found that 14g never sticks but as the bean ages that might need increasing a bit. Which bean and grind setting might be influencing it. It's a right pain in the posterior. 6 bar brewing which some use might help with this.

John

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## coffeemilk (Nov 7, 2018)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I now have a La Pavoni.


BTW, La Pavoni looks really good ... not sure I have the skills for that.

Out of interest, why would you leave the machine on for a whole day and to worm up for 40 min, in a domestic environment?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

coffeemilk said:


> BTW, La Pavoni looks really good ... not sure I have the skills for that.
> 
> Out of interest, why would you leave the machine on for a whole day and to worm up for 40 min, in a domestic environment?


I didn't. I warmed it up first thing in the morning, two coffees. At the weekend, same again, but another warm up in the afternoon after lunch. The main issue I had is that I had to plan when to have a coffee.

Some members in this forum do leave their machines on all day, and, according to what they say, is not detrimental neither wastes that much more electricity as if you were to warm it up from cold every time.


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## coffeemilk (Nov 7, 2018)

ajohn said:


> The Oracle seems to come into it's own when people want something any member of the family can just go along and use.


First of all, thank very much for taking time to share your experiences with the Sage DB. I am sure it will help many people who are considering Sage.

Agree with you point, in fact that is my only real concern with the prosumer machines, the risk of me being the only one who would be able to use the machine...but my family have seen the prosumer range and do like them.

At this point I am homing in on:

- Mazzer Mini A

- BWT filtration system

- Still thinking between:

* Exobar Leva (PARTS are available







, good price/function ratio )

* Lelit PL162T (looks good, very rich in functionality but expensive)

* ECM Sync (looks great, rich in functionality but expensive)


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

coffeemilk said:


> First of all, thank very much for taking time to share your experiences with the Sage DB. I am sure it will help many people who are considering Sage.
> 
> Agree with you point, in fact that is my only real concern with the prosumer machines, the risk of me being the only one who would be able to use the machine...but my family have seen the prosumer range and do like them.
> 
> ...


It looks like you are into Italian bling going on the choice of machine. The way I look at those with a full E61 group head is an increase in heat up time. Also for me making coffee should be a case of pushing a button. Some people weigh in and weigh what comes out on the fly and terminate on that each time a shot is pulled. I weigh grinds in until I am sure that is consistent. The best way to do that so far is to weigh the beans in then it becomes a matter of ensuring all comes out. It's easier to do that on grinders that have a funnel on them rather than a chute. This sort of thing






That person has removed the grill mazzer place over the exit from the grind chamber and added a flap type clump crusher which might reduce static as well as mazzers screen will but it also tends to produce clumps. My mini is set up like that but no flap or grill. Tedious but I do get what went in to come out. Why - helps maintain shot consistency. One way of altering the size of the shot by smaller amounts is to change the dose of grinds. I use a bean which can clump badly - it doesn't when the grinder is used this way.

I've also used other grinders via it's hopper and a timer. Rumour has it that when burrs have been run in sufficiently that will work more consistently - many kg of coffee. New grinders tend to clump more as well until the burrs are reasonably seasoned. Curiously from where I am sitting Sage grinders don't seem to have that problem but the timers need adjusting from time to time to maintain the dose. The grinder pro type also clumps more than the ones built into their machines.

The timers on grinders vary as well. Some can be paused, some can't. Some can be stopped, poor substitute for a pause. Some just run the timer down whatever unless they are switched off. All as far as I am aware can be run manually. Using manual to adjust a dose isn't easy.

The other aspect is adjusting the grind.People will say stepless allows the grind to be adjusted precisely. Gnats spring to mind on a Mazzer and other grinders. Mazzer use springs to keep the burrs apart at their settings unlike some others where the beans being ground forces them apart. Those can be improved by wrapping ptfe tape around the adjustment thread. I believe Eureka use gravity - the top burr is fixed.

The problem with grinders in general is that they are really aimed at commercial use where adjustments are less frequent and a lot of beans go through them pretty quickly. Also I suspect in many cases beans that are easy to grind.







The one I use most isn't that easy even for the suppliers who spend far more on grinders than I do. The way I use the mini copes but the profitec is much easier to adjust. When I look at that more closely I might find ptfe tape would improve it further. As it was 2nd hand it has ground a lot of beans. Haven't got round to really looking at the dose consistency via the timer. One slight problem I had is interesting. Bought some Elephant beans. Larger than most others. Many Italian grinders have exactly the same hopper neck diameter profitec decided to go smaller - on a couple of occasions the elephant beans jammed and didn't get into the grind chamber. Might be due to where the hopper shut of was. Not sure.

Maybe @DavecUK has a view on the profitec grinder. Mine was originally owned by @MediumRoastSteam. In some ways it might be a better option other than burr size compared with any mazzer grinder - people want to use 80mm burrs these days -







I don't. The main gain is adjustment but as with all the fit of the adjustment thread may have limitations that mess adjustment up a bit. I haven't used it enough to tell for sure. It wont be as easy to modify for weighing in as a mazzer.

Not being able to buy spares for Sage machines seems to be a pretty recent thing by the way. Sage have told the company that they could be bought off that they want to handle it. If it turns out that this means that on the DB in particular they just can't be obtained it will reduce sales over time. The answer some people have used is to buy with a 3 year warrantee and sell just before that runs out and then buy another. Part of the reason I bought a refurbished one was down to this aspect. It has a straight forwards 6month guarantee followed by another 6 months that isn't so simple - partial refund. The other reason for this is that I wasn't sure I wanted one and if it breaks can I fix it / maintain it. Obvious wear problems can be fixed - O Rings and Ulka pumps can be made to fit. Solenoids - probably need cleaning but more frequent back flushes might stop that. O rings are probably used for seals in a number of places. One good thing about all of their machines is that they are easy to descale without having to dismantle them. Stainless boilers too - I did look at a used model with copper boilers and that had been replaced on it's last service. No idea why but it wasn't very old and had always been used with bottled water. Some use brass boilers.

LOL They have their good points and maybe a very bad one. I see the DB as being too expensive to throw away.

John

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## coffeemilk (Nov 7, 2018)

@john, thank you for the detail, especially regarding the burr sizes and adjustments.

I do like the industrial retro look on these E61 machines but I must admit that the Sage DB is still keeping me looking at eBay and it probably would until my final commit, in a week or so. Main reason is the optional simplicity of making a shot but I cannot get past the availability of parts. I also think you are correct that as the time goes buy they will lose sales because of the part issue.

The only thing that could sway me is a good deal on Sage.









I didn't know the parts were available not so long ago for Sage ... a strange move.

As far a grinders are concerned, I did like the sound of Niche but I am not sure about the workflow.

I think I would prefer the timer based grinders, as I am not sure I would always want to measure and I don't think e.g. 0.6g variation would make much difference. (but I am a newbie, so cannot say for sure)

For that reason I started looking at Eureka Mignon Specialita 16CR - I think it has a good quality\price ratio.


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