# Extraction problems



## Cloud (Mar 9, 2019)

I'll be very grateful for any advice here.

I'm trying to learn how to properly use barista touch. I'm using fresh roasted 8 days beans from 200 degrees company,single wall filter. Regardless what I do my extraction always starts after 3 seconds. If I use more coarse setting it looks like normal under extraction but if I use more fine setting the flow still starts after about 3 seconds but barely drips and so there is little coffee. I tried to increase dose,alter grind setting. Nothing. I have contacted Breville explained that to them so they told me that extraction should start after 3 seconds and proper flow after 8 and asked me if I see a proper pressure and volume after those 3 sec. I would believe them that I'm wrong and that's how it should be but at this two videos- first video at 4:53 and second at 7:45 the first drops,and nor drops but a proper flow actually starts after 8-12 sec. So feels like they are giving me wrong info and still can't explain what I'm doing wrong.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It's an error made long ago, so it's difficult to associate it with the problems you're having now. Those videos...I don't know how helpful they will be. We have some people who really like these machines, so I am sure they will set you right.


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## Cloud (Mar 9, 2019)

The videos are not meant to be helpful,they only show that what Breville replied to me was wrong and a proper extraction/flow should start after 8 seconds or so. According to what Breville messaged me first drops should drip after 3 seconds like in my case and proper volume flow after 8. I can clearly see on those videos that this is not true.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Simple. Forget the times mentioned and tune according to the in and out ratios mentioned in the manual. Read the ml out as grams. You will need some 0.1g reading scales which I would hope you already have. Once you have achieved what the manual suggests try for less output and see what that does taste wise. Can also be worth trying higher ratios - more out. Alter by adjusting the grinder. I'd suggest you use the razor tool initially to get an idea how many grams the baskets hold. The weight that leaves can be adjusted later when you are more aware of what to expect. Add too much for instance and that can result in the grinder being set coarser than it should be. Too little at some point can result in rather soggy wet pucks that wont give consistent results even as far as changing the taste.

The manual's suggestion on time to flow etc were probably written by some one who hasn't used the machine or got their numbers mixed up. Forget them what matters is ratio and total shot time from when the button is pressed. I'd suggest 30 sec for that but you may find some other number is better.







Adds too many variables really but say due to grinder adjustment limitation the output is wrong adjust the time.

It's hard to see what is going on in the videos. I suspect may find that you can use the grinder when the milk is steaming.

John

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## Cloud (Mar 9, 2019)

The videos are not






meant to be helpful they only show that their extraction starts as the manual says after 8-12 seconds not after 3 regardless what I do with settings. Same with this video which is Brevilles guy starts brewing at 9:30 and coffee appear after eleven seconds. Now that I have presented those videos to Breville where you can clearly see that extraction happens as manual describes it to be they told me to call for additional troubleshooting the bad taste remains that they first tried to tell me something exactly opposite to manual and that was completely wrong as well.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> It's an error made long ago, so it's difficult to associate it with the problems you're having now. Those videos...I don't know how helpful they will be. We have some people who really like these machines, so I am sure they will set you right.


It sound to me like the manual will cause anyone who buys the machine problems. I am assuming that internals are set up as the straight BE - if it behaves as some have found that's very likely. Maybe the OP can help on that score. Empty the drip tray completely and weigh it. Pull a dribble style shot and weigh it again. I suspect unless they are rather lucky they will find a significant amount of water in the drip tray. The machines can be used in this region but only with care - it's why the pressure gauge on the ordinary BE can be useful. From memory the 3 way valve will dump 60ml into the drip tray. Piping changes may change that. OPV anything up to several hundred ml. It's not intended to be used that way.

John

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## Cloud (Mar 9, 2019)

Just an update ,called sage and on the phone went through all troubleshooting and they were unable to help me, theu told me that the engineer will get back in touch with me in this one neither anyone on this forum seems to be able to help or be familiar with the problem.

ajohn-everything that happens in all three videos happens exactly as the manual describes please don't give wrong advises.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Oh dear.

To be honest I have no idea why you posted the link to the first video. It doesn't illustrate the "points" you are making and has another problems as well.

2nd one. I'd suggest that you look at the timing more carefully. Flow always increases after it has started.

The help from Sage looks like they thought you were using a Barista Express not a touch.

You hopefully might find this useful - in several respects.






Unfortunately it doesn't include tuning the dose which basically when used as above is the grinder setting and taste.

Frankly with a miss spelled comment such as you made my inclination is to tell to go ............ You'll have to guess the rest.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Cloud said:


> Just an update ,called sage and on the phone went through all troubleshooting and they were unable to help me, theu told me that the engineer will get back in touch with me in this one neither anyone on this forum seems to be able to help or be familiar with the problem.
> 
> ajohn-everything that happens in all three videos happens exactly as the manual describes please don't give wrong advises.


Coffee is not a series of reactions over exact times from a machine.

You are getting decent advise , please try it, i am saying this kindly.

Not everything happens exactly as in a manual, try and be open to that and your coffee making experience will be alot easier.

Regards Boots

PS I own a sage machine also, different one, but it also says x drips at x time or else . It simply is not the case these rules have to be met to make taste coffee.


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## Cloud (Mar 9, 2019)

We are all talking about different things here.

1. I have all three videos because all three of them shows exactly how many seconds from pressing "brew" button to extraction have passed I'm more than shocked that after many times I have explained that you still don't see/understand this.

2. I can see my timing clearly thank you but again you seem to know better what I'm looking at.

3. Barista unlike you can read with understanding they know exactly what we are talking about and you seem to be just trying smarter than everyone and everything. You know better who wrote the manual,you know it's full of nonsense,you know I'm wrong with my timing,you know what sage support were thinking when they read my message and tried to help/advise me.

For the last time I will say and not in Chinese so don't blame my spelling all those videos shows exactly eight seconds as the manual states. And according to what I have read from many people posts and opinions that proper extraction

Should start after so much.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

We understand you videos, we do not place the severe importance of what's happening in them that you do.

Plenty of friendly advice and been offered , if you don't think its pertinent then follow the other opinions you have read in how to get to proper extraction.

Proper extraction is not defined by when a pour starts in a manual .


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

@Mrboots2u

I suspect Sage are trying to get around the absence of the pressure gauge on the touch really. Also from comments that may have made small detailed changes to infusion. Thier comments on the gauge in the BE manual are only a starting point really and with some beans will produce crap but people tend to stick to it.

Fact of life these days people want to be told exactly how to do something or the other, manuals can only be so thick and etc. Writing manuals is a job in itself now as well. Very noticeable on software as the help often doesn't solve problems at all. If the guy who wrote the code did them they probably would. In the machines case read the engineer that worked on it and guesses at the manual end of things.

The fact that the OP can't do it more than suggests that the machine hasn't changed that much from the others. The fact that he can't in this case to him means that something is wrong. As he isn't receptive end of story. Maybe eventually the OP may realise that the important thing is the taste of what comes out of it.

John

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## Cloud (Mar 9, 2019)

Look guys I'm not trying to have a go with none of you my question is only-please answer my if you can only to this question.

Why in all three of these videos the coffee starts to flow after 8-9 seconds after pressing "brew" button and mine after 3 seconds regardless of settings and beans I use.

Much appreciate your help but since I posted this thread no one was able to tell me this.

Pawel.


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## Cloud (Mar 9, 2019)

I think that some people feel kind of knowledge kings when they find themselves in internet at certain forums mixing nonsense with a bit of actual experience that would suggest egocentrism we have a great example here. If there was nothing wrong I'm doing the manufacturer would tell me this. Now I even know why the manufacturer removed pressure gauge from previous model it is good to know Charles Xavier. The fact that my machine behaves different from thousands others suggest that the manual is written wrong. I'm looking for a different forum good bye good people.


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

It seems like quite an easy one to solve here.

You are getting advice from knowledgable people (willing to go to great lengths to give you detailed advice) and from what I can tell, you're not even trying it, just telling them they don't understand your problem.

Sage don't seem to know the problem, so they can't help. So I'd say stop being unappreciative to the kind people here and send the machine back to where you got it and get a replacement! If you are right in all the above comments, it is simply a broken/faulty machine!!

I really don't like when people aren't thankful when people try and help...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

jonnycooper29 said:


> It seems like quite an easy one to solve here.
> 
> You are getting advice from knowledgable people (willing to go to great lengths to give you detailed advice) and from what I can tell, you're not even trying it, just telling them they don't understand your problem.
> 
> ...


Best ignore rather than try to reason with people like that. I did wonder about mentioning the problem with measuring to better than 0.050 sec with a video stream or mentioning why the small machines behave like they do. No point. Actually the machine display shows when flow starts on the first video, circa 7 secs. That I would say is about the limit of these machines in terms of time to flow but the OP isn't getting it. Fill level and maybe beans. Beans seem unlikely and my posts covered the other - not using the single basket though. That is likely to need more work in the grinds area.

The grinders can easily choke the machines and without introducing a muddy taste as well. No mention of that happening.

The best reply really eventually is faulty machine, faulty beans. That way the poster wastes their time exchanging the machine and buying yet more beans and the machine could be faulty but in this case probably just the grinder. Youtube etc is a menace in some ways. I suspect the temperature problem mentioned and I believe much video'd is similar.







From a reply some one had from Sage sounds like their call centre is fed up with it.

John

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## Twin (Feb 9, 2019)

It's a pity when you end up watching videos with a set mind, bare the "wrong" videos.

Anyone reading this, there is a whole lot of knowledge here. Videos are a great way of learning, but you need to be a lot more aware than in other settings. Having tested several SAGE machines, I found a few, in my opinion very good videos posted by Breville/Sage. Phil McNight has good explaining in a few of his, and there is something common in these videos. And that is, make sure the beans you are using is freshly roasted, used no later than 6 weeks from roasted date (clearly stated on the bag), preferably within 4 weeks.

With that advise, I started with guaranteed freshly roasted beans (with roasted date on the bag), made espressos which poured like "warm honey" from the portafilter, in a mix of dark and slightly lighter brown colour into the cup.

I was amazed, I actually made great tasting espresso, with all the complex sweet flavour, not at all bitter or sour.

This was done on all the SAGE machines I have tested, with similar result.

Further down the road, I have made not so good tasting espressos with freshly roasted beans, some over extracted, som under. But worst of them all, and without exception beans that are NOT freshly roasted, the result is very poor. Grinding finer and finer, always black outcome, never brown/light brown, unless pouring too quickly. Grinding too fine and it just chokes. This never ends in any good tasting espresso, only with decent beans it can make a decent long black.

Just my experience - as a green bean!


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