# initial woes of the deep dive



## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Hi all,

Firstly I was very skeptical about posting this as history lends itself to initial comments along the lines of "use the search function" etc. however this is something I have been doing all day and to e honest its a damn mine field.

So I am new, not to coffee, but gooood coffee. I'm a proud owner of a nespresso machine that I have had since 2013 and until recently my head has been firmly in the sand, and seeing what I spent on capsules since early 2016 left me kinda shocked and thinking i must be able to get superior coffee and a much lower long term cost. So its time to up my game.

I do have some requirements, but much looser than my wife who enjoys the load pod/press button experience she does every morning. The problem becomes the faff, and from what I see this is mainly to do with grinding-tuning, dosing, weighing, tamping, polishing which to be honest on top of the cleaning would see the equipment as well as myself sleeping in the pond after a week (yes with the fishes).

so what do i want? and where will this take me? and how long will this new shiny last before i have to spend another xxx amount?

Ideally i would prefer not to get something that doesn't let me have control to a degree, but then when i want to be lazy offers me rich dark crema ladden morning hugs. I also want a steam wand for milk magikery.

So from my understanding, i need a HX machine with a PID. and also a grinder with associated gadgetry. and all that on a budget which can be flexed to a degree if it pays off in ease of use for the wife. The main issue i see here is the grinder, would that be right?

I have seen lots of advice about sage automatic gear like the BE and many seem to be returning them. So with all this in mind, and lets say a budget of 7-800 for a new setup, what would you suggest ?

Thanks in advance.

Craig


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I'd recommend the sage offerings Craig - mostly good rep on here and if you purchase right then decent warranty.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

a BE would certainly fit budget as well as happy wife, I do see a fair amount of complaints though or would this be people not giving it a chance and learning how to use it correctly?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I suspect so, though I'm only going on what I read on here.

Lots of good experiences with BE and dtp on here too - see joey posts.

I believe BE is dtp with add ons?


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

thats pretty much what I believe, it has a built in grinder which is obviously not as good as something like a mignon, but should be sufficient for the machine.

I'll check out Joey posts

Thanks


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

get a separate grinder now - the built in grinders are pretty dire


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:


> thats pretty much what I believe, it has a built in grinder which is obviously not as good as something like a mignon, but should be sufficient for the machine.
> 
> I'll check out Joey posts
> 
> Thanks


Hi Craig. Yes I'm a hug fan of the sage products, currently using a DTP with separate grinder.

These are a quick machine and will warm up to a useable temp in around a minute, the same goes for the BE. So you can have a tasty drink fairly quick (I timed it at a steady pace and was just over 7 mins from cold)

It really depends what you want from it and what sort of effort you want to put in. Certainly to begin with it may seem like a bit of a faff but once you get a good flow then it all comes natural.

I think the best price currently for a new one with 2 year warranty is £299 so that would leave a nice chunk leftover for a great grinder.

The BE I haven't used but it's just an upgraded version with a few more features. @ajohn is your man for info on this machine I'd say.

Hope this helps anyway


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

did you see about the part where my wife has to use it ?

"Weddings are basically funerals with cake."


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Thanks Joey,

I was torn between the BE for ease (and far less nagging) and the DTP with a PID + mignon grinder (more nagging, possible sofa time when she cant use it)

do other grinders have dose control? that would at least be one less thing to worry about when its setup with a bean


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:


> Thanks Joey,
> 
> I was torn between the BE for ease (and far less nagging) and the DTP with a PID + mignon grinder (more nagging, possible sofa time when she cant use it)
> 
> do other grinders have dose control? that would at least be one less thing to worry about when its setup with a bean


You could go for the oracle if you can stretch that far. That would take some of the work out of the equation (less nagging )

I don't know much about all the different types of grinders out there, but I'd think you might pay quite a bit for something similar to the sage dose control. I'm not sure though.

I use a mazzer SJ and I just weigh the coffee grounds. I know roughly that a 10-12 second grind will give me the desired about with a small amount of wastage.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

The wife factor (or husband! - not so much) is an ongoing joke on here Craig.

My view is that sage oracle apart - there isn't a no hassle way to great coffee using beans.

What I mean is that even with a BE you still have to dial it in, learn about extraction, experiment etc.

Part of the joy of this passion is how it's not necessarily a repeatable process.

Having said that - the melitta bean to cup machines do a damn good cup from what I read and your missus can literally press a button and that's it most of the time. Not to be sniffed at


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Yeah i think an oracle would be really pushing the boat. im wondering if I can make an essentially better BE with a DTP and either a sage dose control or a smart grinder pro. Providing i can get them dialled in grind wise, then id imagine less nagging which is always a huge win.

in fact a smart grind pro + a DTP is less than a BE and the separate grinder is more better it seems. I could prolly stretch to a mazzer but im not sure she could cope with that.

I looked at the melitas, but i want that wand dammit for the milk magikery









of course im basing all of this on halving the cost of my coffee habit, since beginning on jan last year i have paid the greedy beggars at nespresso over a grand for capsules!!!!


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

The capsules are a fortune!!! If you go down the DTP route there's loads of folk on here who can help if you get stuck


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## Ted_Kent (Nov 25, 2017)

Hi and welcome,

I am just getting back into coffee after a period away due to ill health and have gone down the sage route, in particular the BE and smart grinder pro.

I started with just the BE and got on ok, the first thing i did was try supermarket beans with no roasted date, these did not work unless i used the dual wall filter. I got some fresh beans locally and after a bit of dialing in i was getting a decent extraction and a nice coffee using the normal filter cup.

The built in grinder seemed ok, however there was a bit of wastage and that means cleaning it off from the drip tray and plastic under the drip tray, no real issue but adds to upkeep time. On a trip to John Lewis there was a smart grinder pro with a 90 quid discount and after some thinking i decided a separate grinder was a good option and it is much easier to clean as the catch trays are magnetic so pull right off and are cleaned with a quick tap and wipe down.

In hindsight i think a dual boiler machine would have been a better purchase but i will not be changing for the time being, it adds time to the coffee making but not so much i would not use the BE.

Dose control once set on the smart grinder is ok, i use the manual function and do it by eye and then check weight after, i always seem to get it at around 16-17 grams and my target is 18 so nearly there by eye now. As for grind size, my regular coffee i was set at 14 and when i picked the fresh up the other day (i buy 1kg bags) i had to adjust it to 18 so nothing major and to be honest the fist shot on the new bag with the machine still on 14 was slightly over extracted but was a drinkable cup of coffee.

Cleaning now is much quicker having the separate machine to grind and extract. Once i have made my drink i ensure the steam wand is clean, the grouphead is flushed and my portafilter is rinsed along with the milk pitcher which takes all of a moment. Its now part of the routine and again would not stop me from using the machine.

Hope my beginners views have been of some help and if you have any more questions feel free to ask.

Here is a link to my recent post in the show us your setup area of the forum for interest https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?41639-My-first-coffee-setup&p=550849#post550849

Lastly my local John Lewis had quite a few Sage machines marked down as display models (boxes and bits were out the back and complete) so if that is not an issue it may be worth a trip if you have one local, i paid full price for the BE as non display and the grinder i mentioned above.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Thanks for the insight,

I think I'm definitely going the DTP route as I don't really want to spend an extra 200 for a built in grinder on the BE that isn't up to a grinder pro. It also means if/when I upgrade later I can do one piece at a time.

What are DTP accessories like? Bottomless porter filters and shower screens? Anything else I can get for it?

Thanks

Craig


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## Ted_Kent (Nov 25, 2017)

Its the way most people go, the one advantage to having the grinder on the machine still is my daily coffee goes in the smart grinder and the occasional decaf goes in the BE grinder and i don't have to change mine around, that's not very often mind that i use the decaf for visitors that cannot do the caffeine.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:


> Thanks for the insight,
> 
> I think I'm definitely going the DTP route as I don't really want to spend an extra 200 for a built in grinder on the BE that isn't up to a grinder pro. It also means if/when I upgrade later I can do one piece at a time.
> 
> ...


They don't do naked pf for the DTP but I can mod a standard pf for you if needed. I've done a few for people on here.

There are baskets/screens available but they are for a la Spaziale machine so need slight alterations. Nothing too major though.

So yes there are options


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Thanks Joey, ill definitely take you up on that.

So I think we have a winner! Sage DTP + Grinder Pro. I still have enough capsules for a couple of weeks so ill pull the trigger closer to christmas and see if i get get a sale deal.

On another note, rather than buy various beans and bugger it all up trying to dial in for each to find something i really like, a stupid question but any decent places you can try out their bean wares and then buy what you like ?


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## jimbocz (Jun 5, 2015)

I used to have a Greaf CM800 which I used with my DTP, and was under the impression that it was roughly the same as the Sage grinders. I upgraded to a Mignon and the taste difference is significant. You should seriously consider going with a mignon and the DTP.

You are right to be worried about faff, but you should be aware that you can adjust the amount of faff for your requirements. During the week, I spend literally 5 minutes making a coffee every morning. The DTP heats up instantly, use the razor thingie to get more or less the right dose and your done. On weekends, I weigh it and time it and faff around as much as I want. Using the DTP and a Mignon is not unreasonable for your wife, she'll get a good coffee without weighing or timing anything.

You should be more worried about cost of beans. You won't be able to buy any old stale beans from the supermarket, from now on you'll have to go to a speciality roaster and they are not cheap. And your grinder will grind a lot of beans quickly. I'd guess you will easily spend more on decent beans than you spend on pods now. If you aren't going to spend money on this, consider just sticking to pods becuase if you use supermarket beans then your coffee is going to be not nice no matter what grinder and machine you buy.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

good advice, thanks @jimbocz.

I did look at the mignon but lacking any automation seems a deep end jump from a first time grinder, that being said, it does look shiny and i'm sure produces better results. As for coffee, i done a bit of math and it seems to be around £7 for 13 double shots give or take which can be reduced to 4.50 for the italian job beans from Rave. The cheapest from nespresso is just over £8 so there doesn't seem to be a lot in it depending on the beans (i would never buy from a supermarket)

ill do a bit of youtubery on the mignon and gauge the faff


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## jimbocz (Jun 5, 2015)

I really like the Italian job as well. Don't forget to add shipping.

What exactly do you want from automation on a grinder? Just to get the dose right? The Mignon has a timer that's fairly accurate for dosing. Does the sage do it by weight?

Whatever, I can tell you that I have tasted a lot of coffee from a small conical as well as a mignon and the taste difference is very noticeable. Don't lose track that taste is most important.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

yup, the arm has been twisted, the mignon it is. I found the timer info on youtube and thats pretty much the same function as the sage grinder and once its setup for a bean its pretty much dialled in which will give the wife something less to complain about.

So the final package will be the DTP + Mignon, as I said in my first post, its a bloody minefield lol but good advice all round.

Craig


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Great choice and I'm confident you won't be disappointed when up and running. You might have a short period of trial and error but it won't take long to get up to speed


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## Beth71 (Jan 4, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:


> yup, the arm has been twisted, the mignon it is. I found the timer info on youtube and thats pretty much the same function as the sage grinder and once its setup for a bean its pretty much dialled in which will give the wife something less to complain about.
> 
> So the final package will be the DTP + Mignon, as I said in my first post, its a bloody minefield lol but good advice all round.
> 
> Craig


Same set-up as I have - hope you're as happy with it as I've been so far.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

@Beth71 me too, but then something happened and im not sure what to do about it. fleabay has refurb Mazzer SJ's for a little under a new Mignon. now that puts me in a dilly of a pickle


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:


> @Beth71 me too, but then something happened and im not sure what to do about it. fleabay has refurb Mazzer SJ's for a little under a new Mignon. now that puts me in a dilly of a pickle


If your kitchen can handle the size of a SJ then you'll notice the difference in the cup


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

thats something i realised after I saw a couple for 290, i went to look at the dimensions and then thought it was a tad big, Im already going to have to purge a gadget to another room to fit the mignon/DTP lol

I think i'll stick with the mignon, shinier things can come later, must get all the indecision under control and pull the trigger.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

The SJ doesn't take up that much room. Especially if you removed the hopper and have the lens hood mod


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

lol sooo much temptation. i think ill stick with the mignon and promise myself an SJ if i ever get a rocket


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

@joey24dirt do you have a photo of your sj with mods ? i keep seeing posts about the value of "buy the best grinder you can" so i suppose if i can get and used SJ for the of a new mignon, that would make more sense. im a bit skeptical about the sellers though lol


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

A little bit untidy at the moment, but at least it gives a size comparison. I have a funnel to go on the SJ when I get round to it so still using the doser, but it's still fine that way for normal daily use


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## Beth71 (Jan 4, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:


> @Beth71 me too, but then something happened and im not sure what to do about it. fleabay has refurb Mazzer SJ's for a little under a new Mignon. now that puts me in a dilly of a pickle


Haha. Always difficult decisions to be made when it comes to coffee







I don't think you'd be disappointed with either choice. There are a few with the SJ/DTP combo and it seems to work really well.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

thanks man, now my world has been turned upside down and seeing its not gigantor, that is definitely the grinder for me. seen one on fleabay for £295 with a serial 16. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mazzer-Super-Jolly-grinder/222749399185?hash=item33dce61891:g:MYoAAOSw8axaLCVO


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:


> thanks man, now my world has been turned upside down and seeing its not gigantor, that is definitely the grinder for me. seen one on fleabay for £295 with a serial 16. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mazzer-Super-Jolly-grinder/222749399185?hash=item33dce61891:g:MYoAAOSw8axaLCVO


Have a look though the for sale section if you haven't already.

That one in Ebay looks good though. Is it local to you? I'd always advocate collecting if possible after a few horror stories that have been mentioned here recently, especially at this time of year when it's so busy.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

I've not read all the posts but why not keep the Nespresso for the wife if she likes the ease, then buy something awesome for yourself to use.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

my concern was "cash on collection" as opposed to paypal. but that being said, it looks like a decent machine if its legit. i had a look for sale on here but didnt see one, i could post in the wanted section i guess.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

that could definitely be the case, i mean we wont throw out the nespresso, it would just fight for counter space, im already going to have to send the kitchenaid mixer to another room to make way for a coffee setup lol


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:


> my concern was "cash on collection" as opposed to paypal. but that being said, it looks like a decent machine if its legit. i had a look for sale on here but didnt see one, i could post in the wanted section i guess.


Chances are it will be ok. I have had one delivered and it was fine, also a classic, which was fine.

I know what you mean about PayPal though. Way easier and a bit safer.


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## IggyK (May 13, 2017)

Just beware of the dreaded PayPal Cheque delays everything until it clears.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

ill pay cash, if i take that one.


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

2 things that may help you on your journey:

1. As you now got enough posts in why not place a wanted ad for a mazzer SJ on here as you will know the provenance (forum members tend to look after their machines and are honest with any shortfalls)

2. Look for an intro to espresso course for both yourself and your wife so that you both are aware of what you getting into and crucially will have a better understanding of what you can get out of it. You could do this before you go out and buy shiny things at a public course (check Roasters out or ask for nearest on here) or see if a forum member such as @Glenn or @jlarkin can come to your home and show you how to get the best out of your new coffee equipment. This will be money well spent and save you a whole heap of engagement in the process which can be daunting at first / frustrating at second.

As a freebie third and its a biggy: don't forget to factor in decent scales which weigh to 0.1g (can be bought off ebay for less than a tenner up to silly money...), a tamper that fits the basket on your machine well (ask here dependant on machine, the one supplied may not be up to the job), a milk jug (if not supplied with machine), either a milk thermometer or much easier Temptags that stick on the outside) and finally a couple of cups you like the feel of in your hand that are not too big to fit the portafilter (ignore shotglasses unless you ignore the fl oz bits and use soley to pour espresso into, weigh in / weigh out, always) plus if going to use one bean to get used to when you start, order enough, early enough that it is ready rested for you to start ( Italian Job from Rave at £11.50 a kilo plus postage mentioned above ideally needs 10-15 days to settle down post roast, otherwise crema overload)

Best of luck on your journey and plenty of good advice on here.

John


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Thanks John, thats a really good idea as i am hoping to pick up a DTP in the sales and thats a few weeks away, so if i can pick up a mazzer from a member that would be perfect. I absolutely think it would be better to buy from here as opposed to a random on fleabay. already got some nice cups and the amazon basket has a thermometer/jug and scales ready to go.

ill look for a tamper when i realise the one it comes with is terrible











Great advice on a course, that would certainly kick some initial frustration, ill see whats available near me.

Thanks for your help

>>>going to wanted section









Craig


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Hi Craig

I'm only a few miles away from Windsor and offer home barista training - at your place, using your equipment (or you can come to mine now also - with or without your machine)

Will PM you my details

Kind regards

Glenn


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Thanks Glen, I have replied


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