# Appartamento and Mignon, or what else?



## LukeT (Aug 6, 2017)

After some online research and having played, but not extensively, with a couple of mates' machines, then signing up to this forum yesterday and receiving some informative feedback and suggestions I found the opportunity to go to Bella Barista today.

It was certainly an enlightening hour or so and I couldn't have been looked after better. I guess they're very used to dealing with idiots like me. It led me to think that the right answer for me is a Rocket Appartamento and a Eureka Mignon.

I could start with a Rancilio Silvia but the compromise seems great. Taking the step up to a HX machine seems sensible enough and I feel I can see the benefits. I "get" how the HX machines work, I want to make predominantly flat whites and other drinks requiring milk steaming.

Beyond this level I think I'll be too much of a novice to miss what I don't have, and I suspect that'll remain the case for a long time, maybe ever.

So my conclusion at this point is it's this or something similar. The ECM is another £130 for marginally better build quality and quietness, but I get the feeling that these ECM quality points apply less at this level than in their dual boiler machine with the lever taps and proprietary group head. And the small size of the Rocket is nice.

The premium for the Rocket over the Expobar isn't much, aesthetics alone are perhaps enough to justify it and there seems a clear suggestion anyway of difference in quality between the two.

Anyway, for my purposes I think I'd be making the same shot with any of these machines, with beans, grinder and technique being the difference, not the machine at all.

And the Mignon just seems to work at that price point. At this point in my life I don't see that for me the alternatives justify the extra cost and as and when that changes it's easy enough to sell. Plus it seems easily user serviceable which I very much like about both it and the espresso machines.

So my question is - what am I missing? What other machines and/or grinders should I consider? Is my logic right?

It also strikes me that perhaps I don't go looking for a second hand setup, which I thought would be my more likely option, simply because I think to end up with something broadly similar I'd be looking at near enough £1000 anyway, and I'm not sure that's a saving enough to lose backup, warranties, choice and a bit of shiny newness. Although that logic may be flawed for grinders with easy burr replacement.

I'm a newbie. Quite a few years of Aeropress, V60 and a grinder that would certainly not do any espresso machine justice. And lots of ok and fewer good coffees bought from cafes. But I've never owned an espresso machine.

All caffeinated wisdom greatly appreciated...


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Although you're a novice now at making espresso based drinks you clearly love coffee so I'm pretty sure you'll learn quickly. A Mazzer Super Joli has been put up for sale today on the sales board which could be a better option than the Mignon.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Sounds like you enjoyed your visit to BB!

It is such a personal choice, the machine and how you arrive at that decision. If you feel you'd rather have new and like the look of the Apartmento (which, by the sound of it you do!) then go with it. You will learn a lot using it and the Mignon and in the future both should sell fairly well and you can always upgrade then.

Or, see what others have to suggest . . . Then still go with your gut instinct!


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Plus there may be a Izzo Alex Duetto mk iv coming up soon, which by all accounts is in mint condition.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=39621

There is yet to be a price mentioned but definitely worth keeping your eye on.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Here is the thread of why he chose that:

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=10064


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## LukeT (Aug 6, 2017)

Wow. That does look like a thing of beauty and sounds immaculate but I think it'll still be above me second hand. If I'm buying 2nd hand I think it'd be prudent to cap the cost of both machines together at a lower figure.

Most of my demo in the shop was on a dual boiler machine but that was much more about education, grind, time etc.

I should certainly try to keep an eye on the for sale board though. I think I'll do that for a few weeks before making a decision. It feels like grinders are both where the upgrading and experimenting are most likely and are they also perhaps cheaper to replace wearing parts if I buy one that turns out to be a bit higher mileage? Burrs seem easy to come by for common ones although he mentioned some can be finicky (not the Mignon).

I'm not much of a forum user but this place has me gobsmacked. Thank you.


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

Hi @LukeT the only thing I can see you changing is the grinder and that's purely you out growing it no other reason, it depends on what you want to do? buy a grinder learn a bit sell it on or buy once and keep it for longer.

The mignon is probably the best start up grinder going and has a great following, however you could find your time with it limited as you gain knowledge and skill.

The grinder road can be a tricky one they all have good and bad points but as you said yourself the grinder makes the difference well the biggest difference.

Do you know what kind of coffee you like as far as roasting goes - light, medium or dark roasts?

Do you like one bean for a while ie per 250g or do you think you be a few bags of different flavours and single dosing?

How much room do you have for a grinder max?

If you know the answer to these questions then it's alot clearer alot faster what way you should go.

Good luck with your journey


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

These machines go on for ever.......why on earth would you not want to buy the best machine available to you? I suspect you are wavering over warranty.....thats why you pay a premium for new


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## LukeT (Aug 6, 2017)

I have tended to buy medium roasts. Lighter sometimes but generally not dark. However, this was just from trial and error with Aeropress and pour-over and might be clouded by a dislike of the burnt flavour of supermarket ground coffee and Starbucks, so I suspect these choices might change with a move to espresso, better grinding and some education. Do different grinders do a better job on different roasts? I didn't realise that! In reality I just tend to ask the roaster what he recommends or what's new to try different things and I guess I'll keep doing that so I should seek equipment that is agnostic.

I think I will continue just to get through one 250g bag before starting the next. Individual dosing with multiple bags on the go at once would probably get me in trouble with my other half (if I haven't already been thrown out for spending £1000 on a coffee machine) and I've always tried to avoid having more than one open.

Space-wise I should in a year's time be in the luxurious position of having no major constraints except appearance - we'll have a big new open kitchen - but currently I have a small area of countertop with unit above, although I might instead use a corner where there's no unit above. Having said that though, even in our new kitchen I wouldn't want to take up extra space unnecessarily. So I'd prefer to avoid a huge grinder. Why would anyone want a hopper to hold more than 250g of beans in their own house?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Luke - I'm another who going to ask u to consider looking at that Alex duetto coming up for sale...

You'd be effectively future proofing your upgrade path and the risks with second hand look to be removed due to who the seller is.

As someone who chose an ecm because of how highly I place engineering integrity - the duetto is just so desirable


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> Luke - I'm another who going to ask u to consider looking at that Alex duetto coming up for sale...
> 
> You'd be effectively future proofing your upgrade path and the risks with second hand look to be removed due to who the seller is.
> 
> As someone who chose an ecm because of how highly I place engineering integrity - the duetto is just so desirable


He's only saying that to stop himself buying it...


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

LukeT said:


> Do different grinders do a better job on different roasts?


Yes they do (apparently), conicals are better suited to darker roasts. Flat conicals to lighter roasts. I'm yet to own a conical until the weekend so will test that theory then.

That of course is merely just one factor. As others have alluded to selecting a grinder is generally the trickier choice to make.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

igm45 said:


> Yes they do (apparently), conicals are better suited to darker roasts. Flat conicals to lighter roasts. I'm yet to own a conical until the weekend so will test that theory then.
> 
> That of course is merely just one factor. As others have alluded to selecting a grinder is generally the trickier choice to make.


This isn't meant to come off as rude or harsh but Wait till you actually get a conical and try.

I've had shots from a conical of light roasted Ethiopians that have blown me away. @ronsil uses an ek for dark roasted coffee.

I'm not saying peoples opinions aren't valid as

People are entitled to their opinions if based on user experience. Some of these seem to morph over time when repeated often enough as hearsay into facts. I've been plenty guilt of this in my time, which I know regret.

So Would a robur be better at light roasted than a mignon.... Will a major be better at dark roasted coffee than a mc2. Will a better aligned grinder just be better no matter what the burr design. Not all flats are equal, not all burrs have the same cut and design. It's a massive generalisationyou have posted.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> This isn't meant to come off as rude or harsh but Wait till you actually get a conical and try.
> 
> I've had shots from a conical of light roasted Ethiopians that have blown me away. @ronsil uses an ek for dark roasted coffee.
> 
> ...


Not rude nor harsh,

I did try to get that message across with '(apparently)', 'thats just one factor' and by making it clear that I'm yet to own a conical. I know how easy 'opinions' become 'facts'.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

My opinion on conical is based only taste for example, not user experience of retention etc. Sat in a cafe drinking 20-30 shots of three flats and two conics same coffee. Some might not even appreciate light roasted coffee who own conics and vice versa....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

You may have a Porsche, but it does not make you a racing driver


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ps I'm not a fan of over developed coffee either so hey so what do I know


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> You may have a Porsche, but it does not make you a racing driver


How does this apply in the context of this conversation?

Just like boots I'm not trying to be rude


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

igm45 said:


> How does this apply in the context of this conversation?
> 
> Just like boots I'm not trying to be rude


What I am saying, is that you can have all the tools but perhaps none of the skills. The op could go down the conventional route and learn his trade. If he does not progress, he will always be able to sell on a used classic and grinder at a small loss, or upgrade to something else if that be the case. If he buys new at this stage, he will lose far more


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## LukeT (Aug 6, 2017)

I assume it can be plumbed in as well, which should maybe be a consideration since we're planning a new kitchen.

Damnit, I'm quaking in my boots at the thought of asking for permission for such a purchase. I suspect there would be repercussions!

Edit: bloody hell, there's another whole page of posts I hadn't got to yet! This was in reply to @kennyboy993 "I'm another who going to ask u to consider looking at that Alex duetto coming up for sale..."


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

ha ha we love spending other people's money on here Luke!

Yes you'll be able to plumb it in - proper high end machine.

I have a plumbed in solution - it's great as long as u get the right filtering in place.


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## LukeT (Aug 6, 2017)

It does make a great deal of sense: buy second hand and you won't lose anything much if you want to sell it on - buy new and you'll always lose a decent percentage. Still, that one's not been put up for sale yet anyway and from all these posts it sounds like if it's well priced I'd have to be quick to get it. And I probably won't be a daily forum reader, realistically.


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## LukeT (Aug 6, 2017)

Filtering?

There's always a catch!


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## LukeT (Aug 6, 2017)

Thank you all for your advice. I have permission of sorts but with the preference it seems for second hand, so it holds its value.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

You're all set then?


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## LukeT (Aug 6, 2017)

Kind of. Just need to find suitable second hand stuff...

i think patience is required!


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## icom102 (Aug 7, 2017)

Luke

I got my first machine two weeks ago i got the ECM Synchronika and i am very happy with it i have the Sage smart grinder pro which is not great but does the job i will be up grading that soon


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